# Sticky  The Gently Honest Mistype Revelation Thread



## mushr00m

Yeah, agreed with @Cosmic Orgasm, @Figure You seem competency heavy, a 3 fix could work.


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## mushr00m

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I thought so too for awhile, but my image lacks the fluidity of a 3 fixer. I look 3-ish because I'm ambitious, like to dress well and am somewhat classist, but, most of this is done for 4-ish reasons (for example, I wear suits to college where everyone is dressed like a bum or to a rock concert lol). 3s adapt their image to suit their environment and have no problem pulling the wool over people's eyes a bit, but dressing well for me is an expression of taste and "class". there is more of a neurosis of "is this _really_ me?" and I'm always afraid of blending into the woodwork.
> @_Cosmic Orgasm_, yeah, I edited that out. it was a dumb shot in the dark :laughing:


Yeah, that makes sense. I see some of that 'outcast' vibe in you, not meant in an insulting kinda way but I get the impression aswell you have your own ideas about life etc that makes you stick out in a way I see 4 fixers, if that makes sense.


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## Entropic

@Cosmic Orgasm, I think 3 core makes more sense than 7 or even 1. Contrary to SoM, I see a lot of deceit in you. @Swordsman of Mana I have been thinking about your image fix and I think you are right about 4w3.


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## Sina

ephemereality said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_, I think 3 core makes more sense than 7 or even 1. Contrary to SoM, I see a lot of deceit in you.


I have never seriously typed as anything other than an Id type. My type label changes are for shits and giggles. I'd love to hear from you about the deceit. Regale me. roud:


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## Swordsman of Mana

mushr00m said:


> Yeah, that makes sense. *I see some of that 'outcast' vibe in you*, not meant in an insulting kinda way but I get the impression as well you have your own ideas about life etc that makes you stick out in a way I see 4 fixers, if that makes sense.


it's a bit embarrassing that you noticed, cuz I fucking hate that side of me (I'm sure the 6 wing doesn't make it any better.


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## Entropic

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I have never seriously typed as anything other than an Id type. My type label changes are for shits and giggles. I'd love to hear from you about the deceit. Regale me. roud:


The way you are behaving towards me right now, or in this thread for example. Or just in general. You are always projecting an image of yourself of who you are that to me at least, never feels quite fully honest. I can never truly trust what you say is what is really on your mind even if you are trying to be honest, there's always a sense that you'll twist something to fit it just a little bit to make it seem a little bit more like that in order to portray you in a different light.


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## Sina

ephemereality said:


> The way you are behaving towards me right now, or in this thread for example. Or just in general. You are always projecting an image of yourself of who you are that to me at least, never feels quite fully honest.


I see. 

edit



> I can never truly trust what you say is what is really on your mind even if you are trying to be honest, there's always a sense that you'll twist something to fit it just a little bit to make it seem a little bit more like that in order to portray you in a different light.



Oh ok. That's more an argument for your lack of 'trust' in what I say as opposed to a typing explanation. The deceit of the 3 is more about self-deceit anyway, not overt deception necessarily. I know a lot of 3s who are very honest, and I have never felt otherwise about their words. 

I do accept that as your personal slant on an observation, of course. Thanks for sharing. If you have more in mind, go right ahead.


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## mushr00m

Swordsman of Mana said:


> it's a bit embarrassing that you noticed, cuz I fucking hate that side of me (I'm sure the 6 wing doesn't make it any better.


If ya think about it, the 1 and 4 fix blend together, you have strong opinions and are not afraid to voice them regardless of what others think! :ninja: And the fact you said you felt embarrassed, points to a 3 wing, a tinge of self denial/3ish image concern(could be 7ish aswell) but ultimately 4 motivated, hehe!


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## Entropic

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I see.
> 
> edit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ok. That's more an argument for your lack of 'trust' in what I say as opposed to a typing explanation. The deceit of the 3 is more about self-deceit anyway, not overt deception necessarily. I know a lot of 3s who are very honest, and I have never felt otherwise about their words.
> 
> I do accept that as your personal slant on an observation, of course. Thanks for sharing. If you have more in mind, go right ahead.


Well, I only really experience that around 3s. 3s deceive themselves yes, but their competence comes in that their self-deception is only successful if they can deceive those around them. It's not a conscious act or choice that they do but simply something they are acting out as a part of their neurosis.


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## Sina

ephemereality said:


> Well, I only really experience that around 3s. 3s deceive themselves yes, but their competence comes in that their self-deception is only successful if they can deceive those around them. It's not a conscious act or choice that they do but simply something they are acting out as a part of their neurosis.



Again, that's your own experience with a type painted by your biases and history with the type. My experiences and those of others may vary. That in itself is not an argument one way or another. And yes, there's a good possibility that I am a 3. I didn't type at 3 on a whim. Of course, I know how 3 deception works.


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## Swordsman of Mana

@ephemereality
this has not been my experience with @Cosmic Orgasm at all. I've always seen her as a blunt as fuck woman who calls it EXACTLY like it is. perhaps what you're seeing about her that is 3-ish is a certain emotional elusiveness. she is blunt about her opinions, but they tend to be presented in a more dispassionate manner than most 2 and 4 fixers


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## DiamondDays

Bring it!


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## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_ephemereality_
> this has not been my experience with @_Cosmic Orgasm_ at all. I've always seen her as a blunt as fuck woman who calls it EXACTLY like it is. perhaps what you're seeing about her that is 3-ish is a certain "elusiveness".




Oh you reminded me of something..

I just remembered, btw, that @ephemereality has long typed me as an 8w9 or 7w8 in the past. So, I'd love to know how this perception of dishonesty fits in with those earlier typings, especially the 8 typing - a type known for their honesty and bluntness.


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## Swordsman of Mana

DiamondDays said:


> Bring it!


8w7 or 7w8 rather than 8w9. you're much more openly egotistical and "mwahaha I'm awesome!" than an 8w9 (who tend to be much more down to earth, somewhat apathetic and not as flashy in terms of personality)


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## Entropic

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> LOL
> 
> I just remembered, btw, that Ephem has long typed me as an 8w9 or 7w8 in the past. So, I'd love to know how this perception of dishonesty fits in with those earlier typings, especially the 8 typing - a type known for their honesty and bluntness.


Some of those posts were honestly troll suggestions and not for the sake of any seriousness. I am serious about 3 fix/core though, which I've been thinking for a long time by the way. 

And yes, it may be my subjective experience but that's what enneagram is when we type others. @Swordsman of Mana this isn't about bluntness. 3s are id types so can be very blunt in such a sense.


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## DiamondDays

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 8w7 or 7w8 rather than 8w9. you're much more openly egotistical and "mwahaha I'm awesome!" than an 8w9 (who tend to be much more down to earth, somewhat apathetic and not as flashy in terms of personality)


I've been thinking about that too. What makes me lean towards 8w9 is how i am IRL rather than on the net.


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## Sina

ephemereality said:


> Some of those posts were honestly troll suggestions and not for the sake of any seriousness. I am serious about 3 fix/core though, which I've been thinking for a long time by the way.


Ah I see! I totally buy that!

I am serious about 3 fix/core myself, so we're on the same page.  I most definitely have a 3 fix. I am open to people disagreeing, but I personally have no questions about it.



> And yes, it may be my subjective experience but that's what enneagram is when we type others. @_Swordsman of Mana_ this isn't about bluntness. 3s are id types so can be very blunt in such a sense.



No, there's a lot more to ennea-typing than ill-founded conclusions that are rooted in personal biases as opposed to observations rooted in fact and then tied in with theory-- "I feel that dishonesty thing around 3s" is a very vague, stereotype based and weak typing explanation. I have come to expect that from you, though. Typing others will always involve subjectivity, and there's a good and poor way of handling it. Your explanation fell in the latter category. Most people you have issues with end up being Fe users or So doms, for example. So, I know what typing standards I am dealing with here. You're excused. 

I find a lot of 6s bring the same point up to me about honesty, and often tend to say exactly what you did, though I would not type you as a 6 on the basis of that. I know better.


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## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I've always seen her as a blunt as fuck woman who calls it EXACTLY like it is. perhaps what you're seeing about her that is 3-ish is a certain emotional elusiveness. she is blunt about her opinions, but they tend to be presented in a more dispassionate manner than most 2 and 4 fixers


Good explanation. 


People can call me out too if they want, 

Edit: Come at me as hard as you want!


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## Recede

Feel free to offer suggestions about my type. I'm fairly certain of my tritype at this point (2w3 9w8 5w4), but not sure which one is my core. Type 2 is a new possibility I'm considering, though I doubt anyone in this forum has seen my 2-ness yet.


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## Animal

Silveresque said:


> Feel free to offer suggestions about my type. I'm fairly certain of my tritype at this point (2w3 9w8 5w4), but not sure which one is my core. Type 2 is a new possibility I'm considering, though I doubt anyone in this forum has seen my 2-ness yet.


I've suspected 2 for you in the past as well! I never suggested it because you weren't considering it and I don't like to throw things at people, especially when I cannot back it up with reason. However I did 'feel it' and I am sorry to say I have no logic to back that up, so take it for what it's worth which probably isn't much.


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## mushr00m

Go on, type meh 7w8/8w7/3w4 SX/SX/SX You know ya wanna! :blushed:


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## Swordsman of Mana

mushr00m said:


> Go on, type meh 7w8/8w7/3w4 SX/SX/SX You know ya wanna! :blushed:


you've always struck me as Sp/Sx for some reason


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## mushr00m

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you've always struck me as Sp/Sx for some reason


Yeah, I remember you mentioning this some time back as did Kalei. Don't think im perhaps as disconnected as SP/SO, just selective about which connections to develop. Soc seems so relate-able though, I considered it as a dom instinct but the only other that conflicts with that is SP. *bah and seriously ponders SP/SX as stack* Mmm...


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## SharkT00th

@_Animal_ I think your correctly typed as an E4 for your core, your not comical enough to be an E2. 
@_Cosmic Orgasm_ I could see 3 from some of our conversations over skype. I could also see 7 as well. It really comes down to how you use your head center, is it formulaic and linear or is it more unstructured.

My area of focus now is on finding my instinctual stacking.


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## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *consent given*


I agree with 4w3 fix.
7 core - without a doubt, though I can see the possibility for either wing.
You know we've debated your gut fix a lot, and I have no extremely strong opinion, but I think it's 1 if I were forced to guess.



Marlowe said:


> I'll volunteer. I've been considering a core of six over my current type three.


You seem very, very SP to me - is that correct? Also I would posit Sp/So. I have no idea how you type instinct wise. 

Core 3w4 "feels" right but I have no case against any other type. If you are considering 6, I'll give it some thought and let you know if I notice anything as I encounter your posts.  



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Consent Given! Considering 3 and 7, but other suggestions are also welcome.
> 
> Nice idea there @_Phoenix_Rebirth_ and nice steal re: my rules. roud:


7w8-3w4-8wX. I understand the cases for 1, and your line to 1 is there but.. I have to say, considering I've only met one other person in my life who I think makes a good candidate for triple-id, and that's my father, and you remind me of him in very beautiful ways <3 <3 my heart says 8.

I would say Sx/Sp but since I know you I realize why it's Sp/Sx. Your energy on the forum feels SX, but I would agree that your lifestyle and compulsions is more indicative of Sp/Sx.

For a long time I was skeptical about ENTJ but now I see the Te dominance plainly. ESTJ or ENTJ would work - I cannot distinguish between the other two with you. Both intuition & sensation seem strong, and for some reason I can't pinpoint if it's Si vs Se, Ni vs Ne. However there's so much Se that Ni/Se is probably it. So, yeah, ENTJ. Damn that was circular.

I can't see you as a core 3 at all. 7w8!!!! If you ever considered 4-fix I would hear you out and keep an open mind, but I think 3 is most likely correct.  And just FYI, I have considered 4-fix for my father as well.



Paradigm said:


> I wanna join the fun!


I can't explain why, but you definitely strike me as a 6. I don't know you well enough to make any more comments, but I will let you know if I notice anything 



SharkT00th said:


> I'll give my consent.


5w6 or 6w5 are the only types I could see for your core.

And definitely a 3-fix. As for gut fix I would posit 1. Not sure about wings on either one.

Your instincts continue to confuse me ;D

And with MBTI, I am also not really sure. ENTJ seemed right, but you type at INTJ now? I could see either.



KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> I don't know if I'm a core 1 or 6 (or maybe even a 2). I appreciate insight from anyone who's willing to give some


You strike me as a 1w1. A shining and dazzling 1w1 at that. 


Donovan said:


> i'm in. :wink:
> 
> (be brutal)
> 
> edit: originally typed at 8--thinking i could be a 3--or maybe a very unhealthy/in-a-state-of-growth 9... would even consider 2.


You seem very, very, very 6ish to me, but that might be the Fe/Ti cognition?? I have a hard time even reconsidering your core type O.O



Figure said:


> If anyone's been wanting to call me out on a mistype, I dare you now.


"I dare you now." What a CP-6 

No, really, I already said on your thread.. 6 or 7 both make sense and I will think about it 
And definitely 1-fix.
Heart-fix.. I would need to think about. I think your gut fix comes first,

INTJ DEFINITELY.



mushr00m said:


> And alternative suggestions welcome! :kitteh:


I haven't stopped puzzling over your type and I really don't know. I do see 6, but I don't know if that's because it's stuck in my head from always seeing you typed as 6. What is your MBTI/JCF/Socionics? I will still let you know when/if I come up with any observations. 6 feels right though, or my brain is stuck on it. One or the other.



Nonsense said:


> And I wouldn't mind anyone commenting on my type. >_>


You are difficult.  But the best I can come up with is that 6w7 doesn't feel *wrong.* As you know I am still mulling this one over, but I don't know >.>

I would think Fe/Ti cognition is in there somewhere, though.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> it's a bit embarrassing that you noticed, cuz I fucking hate that side of me (I'm sure the 6 wing doesn't make it any better.


*crosses arms* 



DiamondDays said:


> Bring it!


The only types I could see for you are 8w9, 8w7, 7w8, or 3wX. You are definitely an Id type. I haven't seen real strong reason to reconsider 8w9 though.


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## DiamondDays

Animal said:


> The only types I could see for you are 8w9, 8w7, 7w8, or 3wX. You are definitely an Id type. I haven't seen real strong reason to reconsider 8w9 though.


Thank you for the feedback. Means a lot coming from you. Even though you settled for 4 you still know 8s inside out! 

The first three types are the only ones i have ever considered. I am surprised to see you suggest 3 as a core though. Care to elaborate why?


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## Animal

DiamondDays said:


> Thank you for the feedback. Means a lot coming from you. Even though you settled for 4 you still know 8s inside out!
> 
> The first three types are the only ones i have ever considered. I am surprised to see you suggest 3 as a core though. Care to elaborate why?


Sometimes a 3 comes off very strong like an 8 but then when you dig down it's a 3. I think it's unlikely though. I was just saying that by process of elimination, I would not eliminate it with certainty. I could eliminate any other type outside the ones I mentioned, with relative certainty.


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## Paradigm

Hyphero said:


> And if you're wondering, if you think I'm mistyped just tell me.


Still think you're a 2.



Marlowe said:


> I'll volunteer. I've been considering a core of six over my current type three.


Nah, I think 3w4 is a better fit than 6.



Figure said:


> If anyone's been wanting to call me out on a mistype, I dare you now.


Agreed with the 6w5 observations :\



Animal said:


> People can call me out too if they want,


I still see you as core id, not core 4. I'd say 3 or 7 over 8, though.


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## Sina

@_Nonsense_

6w7 core. I have already told you the reasoning, so I won't repeat.
@_Silveresque_

6w5, based on your questionnaire and other observations. Core reactive and superego was pretty obvious. You're not an SO first, so some of the examples you gave as to why you aren't a 6 were not relevant. You may be 9w8 and 3 fixed. 

Read Naranjo's 2.

@_Paradigm_

TYPEME!!!:frustrating:


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## Paradigm

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Paradigm_
> TYPEME!!!:frustrating:


Oh. Um... 9w1-2w1-5w6, so/sp.

We good?

No?

Fine. I actually am coming around to you being 7w8, as it would explain a lot (line to 1, for example). But you definitely have that 3 fix. So... 7w8-3w4-8w9, sp/sx... Which I'm pretty sure you knew, anyway :tongue:


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## Sina

Paradigm said:


> Oh. Um... 9w1-2w1-5w6, so/sp.
> 
> We good?
> 
> No?
> 
> Fine. I actually am coming around to you being 7w8, as it would explain a lot (line to 1, for example). But you definitely have that 3 fix. So... 7w8-3w4-8w9, sp/sx... Which I'm pretty sure you knew, anyway :tongue:


What else does it explain? :blushed:


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## The Scorched Earth

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_The Scorched Earth_: I still can't see you as anything but 9w1 or 1w9 (probably the former). your energy is much more mellow than any of the 4s I've met and you seem to have a subtle undercurrent of unexpressed anger. your primary neurosis seems to be acedia/an ability to assert your own needs/desires. additionally, I have a lot of trouble seeing a 4w5 mistype at 3 for as long as you did. INFJ 9w1>4w5>5w6 Sp/Sx sounds about right. I haven't ruled out 1w9 cuz the 9 wing and 4 and 5 fixes would make you seem pretty damn ego, but you lack a certain sternness and preachiness present in all the 1s I've met. compare your posting style to, say, @_snail_. there is a pretty big difference.


All I can say is that if you met me in real life, you would never accuse me of being a 9. It's true that I have mellowed over the years, but that was mostly despite myself. I still have a great deal of frustration/longing, but I don't express it much because I'm not convinced that most people around me (including family) will really "get it." Also because when I have expressed it, it almost always results in hurt feelings (usually on my end), which I don't have time for anymore.

Anyone else?


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## Recede

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Silveresque_
> 
> 6w5, based on your questionnaire and other observations. Core reactive and superego was pretty obvious. You're not an SO first, so some of the examples you gave as to why you aren't a 6 were not relevant. You may be 9w8 and 3 fixed.


Why reactive and why 3 fixed? 

I think a lot of people see me as a 6 mainly because I'm uncertain of my type and keep changing it. But honestly, I have never been particularly prone to doubt and uncertainty before I got into the enneagram. 



> Read Naranjo's 2.


Already read it. If I went by Naranjo, the only type I could be is 5.


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## Sina

The Scorched Earth said:


> All I can say is that if you met me in real life, you would never accuse me of being a 9. It's true that I have mellowed over the years, but that was mostly despite myself. I still have a great deal of frustration/longing, but I don't express it much because I'm not convinced that most people around me (including family) will really "get it." Also because when I have expressed it, it almost always results in hurt feelings (usually on my end), which I don't have time for anymore.
> 
> Anyone else?


Why would you call a typing suggestion an 'accusation'? :laughing:

I don't see you as a 4. 1w9 and I have talked about it in your thread. Too much superego and very lil of an image focus. 1-4 is connected via disintegration. So, I see why you might type at 4. You mentioned depression and so on on your thread. 

But yeah, 1w9-4w5-5wX sx/sp or sx/so.


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## Inguz

I'm not a 6w5.


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## Sina

Silveresque said:


> Why reactive and why 3 fixed?
> 
> I think a lot of people see me as a 6 mainly because I'm uncertain of my type and keep changing it. But honestly, I have never been particularly prone to doubt and uncertainty before I got into the enneagram.


Rest assured, I am not one of these people. I know plenty of people who've changed type multiple times that I haven't suggested 6 to. 

You did talk about uncertainty and doubt on your thread, indecisiveness was an issue you emphasized a fair bit. And, I think 6w7 was my initial impression not w5. So, I'll revise that to w7. You talked a lot about avoiding stress and obligations that tie you down.



> I'm frequently anxious and uncertain, and I look for facts and information to resolve my uncertainty. If I can't resolve my uncertainty, I'll usually choose a safer alternative.


 - that wasn't just about the Enneagram



> I get stressed out and frustrated easily, and when this happens *I often feel the need to vent.* But I usually keep my feelings to myself instead because I'm afraid venting will just make me look bad and *people will think I'm overreacting. Which I know I am.*





> *I also struggle with doubt and uncertainty about whether I should voice my thoughts because I know they can change quickly.* Sometimes it seems like as soon as I say what I think, I don't think that anymore, and this can cause great inner turmoil and t*he feeling that I'm contradicting myself.* I'm also very risk-averse in general





> and I'm afraid of something going wrong or getting in trouble because I did something I wasn't supposed to do. I have a hard time relaxing and enjoying the present when I know the peace won't last.


 - you don't get more 6 than that -- knowing the peace won't last contradicts core positive outlook outright- 

everything I have bolded and quoted etc. thus far relates to 6 and in places to reactive core --- needing to vent when stressed and holding back for fear of judgment because you know you're overreacting..is one example. Fear of making mistakes, making the wrong move, having one foot forward and one back, indecision..all superego 6.



> I don't seem to have any issues with trust, suspicion, or paranoia. I don't fear being alone or abandoned.


You might benefit from reading @_Julia Bell_'s last questionnaire. She, in fact, she was very "trusting". And, she's a 6w7. A lot of 6w7s have the positive influence from 7, so they overestimate how trusting they really are when in fact they're very observant and watchful. Reactivity is about keying in to what's beyond the facade, the surface, as a habit. That's where 6 mistrust comes from, knowing there's more than what meets the eye. 
@_Paradigm_ has often talked about lacking the suspicion and 'paranoia' associated with type.

As for being alone or abandoned, 6s do have a fixation on losing support. So, you initially felt that uncertainty wasn't an issue in general, but you talked about it a lot. It's possible that the support point is one you haven't paid sufficient thought to. The intensity of the fear of abandonment varies from person to person. The more cp leaning 6s or those at a point where they're exhibiting cp in their life may not relate to these underlying fears as much since the focus has shifted to independence or freedom. 

Again, that's something for you to ponder further. 


> I see risks and decisions that could potentially lead to regret (like "I wish I hadn't posted that" kind of regret), but I rarely see "danger". I'm also not at all prone to projection.


The danger shit is HUGELY exaggerated in 6 descriptions. Throw that out to the birds. You said you were risk-averse, and you have to be aware of shit going wrong or have a natural tendency to look to the possibility of things going wrong to be risk-averse. 

And, projection is a very common defense mechanism. Everyone projects. 


> You could insult me and say you hate me to my face and I would probably be a bit sad, but I wouldn't be able to hate you back. I don't seem to be capable of hating people. I'm also very indecisive about a lot of things. And I can be very caring and empathetic, but I can also be very uncaring and apathetic.


Naranjo talks about this propensity for forlornness in 6s. A lot of people associate that with 4 and 9. That insult to my face and hatred thing could also be superego as it was in Julia Bell's case. You may not consider it OK to hate people back. There are 9s who hate some people, so it's not like 9 is the all-accepting in all cases type of the Enneagram.




> Already read it. If I went by Naranjo, the only type I could be is 5.


What's your reasoning for core 2?

Again, the indecision you keep emphasizing in conjunction to other points I highlighted points to 6. 2s are power oriented and decisive, know exactly what they want and how to get it. I don't see it as a fix. I'd say 3 is likely to be your fix. As for why, bleh, I might get to it later. I don't have the time for extensive type discussions.  


I won't be able to converse at length. You're free to disagree or whatever. This is my assessment based on your own writings. Also, there's a certain stand-offish defensiveness to you (not saying this in a disrespectful way or saying only 6s can be defensive), but you seem to be on guard a lot...like you're expecting to be contradicted and need to stay prepared for the same. 

Good luck!


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## Donovan

@Animal, is everyone with Fe/Ti in their makeup going to get a 6 typing from you? :tongue:

@Figure

disintegration lines... but that doesn't clear anything up, since it just pinpoints general behavior (aggression, compliance, receding from life) that all types can fall into--all in a slightly different flavor, and in a varying order; and sometimes even the order itself can go against theory, as a 3 can sink into "apathy" and it might not be a negative thing, or even due to stress. 

... lol, i really only added myself to see what comes of it. i can definitely see 3, _and_ 9, but its the 6 aspect that is unclear to myself (and most likely clear to everyone else, it seems)... 

i have to be at work soon, so i'll come back later with more.


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## mushr00m

Animal said:


> I haven't stopped puzzling over your type and I really don't know. I do see 6, but I don't know if that's because it's stuck in my head from always seeing you typed as 6. What is your MBTI/JCF/Socionics? I will still let you know when/if I come up with any observations. 6 feels right though, or my brain is stuck on it. One or the other.


Yeah, if anything does come up, plz do share :kitteh:, id be interested in your side of things. I try not to get too attached to specific types unless im really convinced but yeah, id be interesting to hear your perspective. I did a socionics questionnaire some time back and another one before that which is buried too far, haha! The first was an IEI(INFp) response and another was EII(INFj) so it's probably one of those. I type INFP aswell. Thanks again!


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## Paradigm

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> What else does it explain? :blushed:


- Your patronization when bothered has much more of a "narcissistic" tone than a "competency" tone. 

- There's more of an _undertone_ of "competency" in you than I'd expect from a 3w4, in whom it should be more obvious. I think most of the time any "competency" from you is more Te than 3 (I'm convinced you're ExTJ).

- Now that I think of it, the whole flaunting scars thing could actually be more 7-diva. I assumed it was w4 at one point, but 7s enjoy showing how "weird" or "shocking" they are, too... More than 3w4s do.

- Line to 1 which can't really be explained by anything else, because I can't wrap my head around you being 1w2-fixed no matter how much I try (and I've tried). You're too comfortable with _everything _relating to 8, and there's a definite reactive streak in you.

This post brought to you by Ni.


----------



## Coburn

@Swordsman of Mana

True, I am not an anxious person for the most part. The only things that begin to make me sweat under the collar are situations I am in charge of that have moved beyond my ability to control. Other than that, I tend to be pretty laid back about most things. I note all the “what ifs” of a situation, make some preparations for them, and then sit back and monitor to see which ones play out. Watchful, but not necessarily with an anxious mindset.
@mushr00m

I hadn’t considered six as my head fix. Is there something in particular you’ve seen that makes you so certain?
@Cosmic Orgasm

That’s actually been the key question in the back of my mind—whether the things I’ve noticed that seem “six-ish” are instead just a manifestation of a really strong sp instinct rather than an indication of a different core type. 

The six, as I understand it, is a type that seeks security. It constantly examines both the internal and external in order to determine what is secure and what isn’t. Even when it does find security, it still checks and double checks to make sure there isn’t some mistake.

Although I don’t particularly relate to the internal checks system (I don’t generally question myself), I do relate to the external approach to some degree. I have a tendency to “hope for the best, expect the worst” when I make plans. I will take the longer, harder, and more thorough route if I believe it better prepares me against any potential “pull out the rug from under you” moments. 

In other words, I don’t like to be caught unawares. 

I don’t over-react to this gut feeling—I’m not the type of person to bring snow jackets on a trip to Arizona in August “just in case” something happens. But I do let it help bring color and perspective to my decisions. I dislike it when my lack of foresight creates problems for me. 

Of course, I do have my own personal quirks which are potentially related to this. Such as never sitting with my back to the exit/entrance in a restaurant/building (I’m infamous with friends for this habit) or never falling asleep around people I don’t personally trust.

The short of it is that I do seek security—and I make sure to prepare myself against potential vulnerabilities. But I don’t panic over it or anxiously run my mind over the possibility of problems coming true. I just take note and make sure to work a little harder to protect myself in the long run.

When shit does hit the fan, my reaction is either explosive (especially if it’s a problem I personally created) or so laid back that it scares people. It really depends on how personally committed I am to the given situation. 

I thought perhaps that was also a measure of the phobic/counterphobic tendency described in sixes. 

Then again, it might just be all chalked up to the fact that I’m an sp-dom. Perhaps a stronger one than I originally thought. 

Also, would you say instead of core there is the possibility I have a six instead of seven for my head fix? 
@Animal

It’s wholly possible I’m just “very, very sp.” 

It just seems strange to me to chalk up my defensive strategies to instinct. But I guess instinct can be that influential?
@Paradigm

Can I ask why you think 3w4 is a better fit? You don’t have to go crawling forum threads for evidence—I’m just curious.

Also, would you think 3w4 fits better than 3w2?


----------



## Sina

Paradigm said:


> - Your patronization when bothered has much more of a "narcissistic" tone than a "competency" tone.
> 
> - There's more of an _undertone_ of "competency" in you than I'd expect from a 3w4, in whom it should be more obvious. I think most of the time any "competency" from you is more Te than 3 (I'm convinced you're ExTJ).
> 
> - Now that I think of it, the whole flaunting scars thing could actually be more 7-diva. I assumed it was w4 at one point, but 7s enjoy showing how "weird" or "shocking" they are, too... More than 3w4s do.
> 
> - Line to 1 which can't really be explained by anything else, because I can't wrap my head around you being 1w2-fixed no matter how much I try (and I've tried). You're too comfortable with _everything _relating to 8, and there's a definite reactive streak in you.
> 
> This post brought to you by Ni.


Pretty good for Ni
XD
@Marlowe
Will respond later. Briefly, yes, I could see a 6 as your head fix at least.


----------



## kaleidoscope

I want some attention, too :3


----------



## Sina

kaleidoscope said:


> I want some attention, too :3


4w3 sx/so - 1- 7w6


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Why would you call a typing suggestion an 'accusation'? :laughing:
> 
> I don't see you as a 4. 1w9 and I have talked about it in your thread. Too much superego and very lil of an image focus. 1-4 is connected via disintegration. So, I see why you might type at 4. You mentioned depression and so on on your thread.
> 
> But yeah, 1w9-4w5-5wX sx/sp or sx/so.


I couldn't think of a better word, honestly. And maybe because I don't care for the core fixation of the 9 (for that matter, I'm not even remotely Positive Outlook).


----------



## Flatlander

Ahah, wondered if someone would copy the INFJ thread concept.

I type, at the moment, as an sx/sp (sp/sx still possible) 5w4 2w3 8w9 INTJ, socionics ILI (considering Te subtype). If anyone has a different vision of my type, feel free to pose it. I prefer there to be reasoning/evidence so I can chew on your thought process.


----------



## meridannight

i'm invading this sandbox!

for those who don't know, i tritype as 874.


----------



## Flatlander

Animal said:


> For a long time I was skeptical about ENTJ but now I see the Te dominance plainly. ESTJ or ENTJ would work - I cannot distinguish between the other two with you. Both intuition & sensation seem strong, and for some reason I can't pinpoint if it's Si vs Se, Ni vs Ne. However there's so much Se that Ni/Se is probably it. So, yeah, ENTJ. Damn that was circular.


I didn't see this as an MBTI thread, but if the topic is brought up, I'm going to say that ESTJ appears the greater possibility over ENTJ. I think Te/Si/Ne/Fi fits better for her cognition: Te/Si creates a focus on details relevant to a topic, Si/Fi gives a softer internal scope with some interestingly impressionistic views, Ne/Fi inferior gives a tendency to generalized idealism, and so forth. I would say that @_Cosmic Orgasm_ is a good example of impassioned ESTJ expertise on a conceptual topic, and she tells it not only in concrete realism, "as it is", through Te/(Se)/Ne, but also there is an element of personal realism, "as it looks to her", through the Si/Fi point of view.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Thanks!


Oh hey, I wanna join in the fun; even if all I get out of this thread is James Franco winking at me. *swoon*

:tongue:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

TreasureTower said:


> Oh hey, I wanna join in the fun; even if all I get out of this thread is James Franco winking at me. *swoon*
> :tongue:


he's mine! :angry:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

meridannight said:


> i'm invading this sandbox!
> for those who don't know, i tritype as 874.


you've always struck me as 7w8 for some reason, but I don't see much evidence against 8w7. definitely Sx/Sp and 874 though
oh, and you seem like an xNTJ of some sort


----------



## Chesire Tower

Swordsman of Mana said:


> he's mine! :angry:


*pouts*

:tongue:


----------



## StaceofBass

Consent given. Current tri-type in sig.


----------



## meridannight

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you've always struck me as 7w8 for some reason, but I don't see much evidence against 8w7. definitely Sx/Sp and 874 though
> oh, and you seem like an xNTJ of some sort


i know, 7w8 is not a stretch.

would you see me as head-type first though?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

meridannight said:


> i know, 7w8 is not a stretch.
> would you see me as head-type first though?


if it's 7w8, then I could see core head center (I'm a 7w6 and I don't feel very head center, and 7w8 is even less head center than that)


----------



## Recede

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Rest assured, I am not one of these people. I know plenty of people who've changed type multiple times that I haven't suggested 6 to.
> 
> You did talk about uncertainty and doubt on your thread, indecisiveness was an issue you emphasized a fair bit. And, I think 6w7 was my initial impression not w5. So, I'll revise that to w7. You talked a lot about avoiding stress and obligations that tie you down.
> 
> - that wasn't just about the Enneagram
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - you don't get more 6 than that -- knowing the peace won't last contradicts core positive outlook outright-
> 
> everything I have bolded and quoted etc. thus far relates to 6 and in places to reactive core --- needing to vent when stressed and holding back for fear of judgment because you know you're overreacting..is one example. Fear of making mistakes, making the wrong move, having one foot forward and one back, indecision..all superego 6.
> 
> 
> 
> You might benefit from reading @_Julia Bell_'s last questionnaire. She, in fact, she was very "trusting". And, she's a 6w7. A lot of 6w7s have the positive influence from 7, so they overestimate how trusting they really are when in fact they're very observant and watchful. Reactivity is about keying in to what's beyond the facade, the surface, as a habit. That's where 6 mistrust comes from, knowing there's more than what meets the eye.
> @_Paradigm_ has often talked about lacking the suspicion and 'paranoia' associated with type.
> 
> As for being alone or abandoned, 6s do have a fixation on losing support. So, you initially felt that uncertainty wasn't an issue in general, but you talked about it a lot. It's possible that the support point is one you haven't paid sufficient thought to. The intensity of the fear of abandonment varies from person to person. The more cp leaning 6s or those at a point where they're exhibiting cp in their life may not relate to these underlying fears as much since the focus has shifted to independence or freedom.
> 
> Again, that's something for you to ponder further.
> 
> 
> The danger shit is HUGELY exaggerated in 6 descriptions. Throw that out to the birds. You said you were risk-averse, and you have to be aware of shit going wrong or have a natural tendency to look to the possibility of things going wrong to be risk-averse.
> 
> And, projection is a very common defense mechanism. Everyone projects.
> 
> 
> Naranjo talks about this propensity for forlornness in 6s. A lot of people associate that with 4 and 9. That insult to my face and hatred thing could also be superego as it was in Julia Bell's case. You may not consider it OK to hate people back. There are 9s who hate some people, so it's not like 9 is the all-accepting in all cases type of the Enneagram.
> 
> 
> 
> What's your reasoning for core 2?
> 
> Again, the indecision you keep emphasizing in conjunction to other points I highlighted points to 6. 2s are power oriented and decisive, know exactly what they want and how to get it. I don't see it as a fix. I'd say 3 is likely to be your fix. As for why, bleh, I might get to it later. I don't have the time for extensive type discussions.


Yes, I've said things that sounded 6-ish, but the thing is that I just don't see type 6 issues being my core. When I made that thread, I was listing every single thing I could think of that could possibly make me a 6, and did the same with 9, because I thought it was between those two types. So of course I must have sounded very 6-ish. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything because at this point I don't think the things I listed are a very significant part of me in the big picture. Yes, I can be uncertain and indecisive at times. But this doesn't affect me anywhere near as deeply as other issues. 



> I won't be able to converse at length. You're free to disagree or whatever. This is my assessment based on your own writings. Also, there's a certain stand-offish defensiveness to you (not saying this in a disrespectful way or saying only 6s can be defensive), but you seem to be on guard a lot...like you're expecting to be contradicted and need to stay prepared for the same.


Yes, this is probably true to some extent. And it's because people always seem to find a way to ignore, misinterpret, or disagree with just about everything I say. I feel constantly undervalued and misunderstood, and it's so frustrating. It's like...people are just full of opinions and judgments and can't be reasoned with. They're going to think whatever they want and there's nothing I can do to get my perspective across to them. 

I don't have time right now to adequately explain my relation to type 2, but here's a post that demonstrates some of it: http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-f...-2-confessions-vents-rants-5.html#post4436115.


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Hi.:happy: Well I am slightly convinced that I am a 7w6 2w3 9w1 So/Sx But I am not sure if 2w3 7w6 9w1 or 7w6 2w3 9w1.

I also think it doesn't explain bits of my personality.

1. The different kind of shyness.

2. The subtle and extreme analyzing in my head that is normally aimed at friends that I share sometimes which is normally accurate.

3. Me believing in freedom and everyone being a "special snowflake". (Which I still do not get why it is a bad thing.)
So I could be mistyping myself.:happy:


----------



## Chesire Tower

Silveresque said:


> I cannot express my sadness when I'm feeling down because no one wants to hear it. At times like these, I realize I have never felt adequately cared about. No one ever truly cares, and this hurts more than anything else.
> 
> This is the type of mood where I contemplate permanently ending contact with people. Reject them because I mean nothing to them. *And then secretly hope they come after me*.
> 
> *I wonder if I will ever find someone who truly cares*. I wonder if I can ever be fully convinced that they really do care as much as I have cared about them.
> 
> But if I can't expect others to care about me immediately, then how is it I seem to care immediately about them? *Perhaps my own caring is not genuine. Maybe I don't know what it means to truly care*.



Honestly, I think that you're a 9(w1?) 4w5 5w4. @Animal, I think that 4w3 is correct. @Cosmic Orgasm, 7w8. 

I don't know about the rest. @Donovan, 7w6? Can someone do me? Feel free to include tritype, instinctual variants, MBTI, Socionics and astrological sign - Okay, the last part was a joke. 


I mean, I sacrificed James Franco to @Swordsman of Mana; it's only fair. *wines*


----------



## Animal

Donovan said:


> @_Animal_, is everyone with Fe/Ti in their makeup going to get a 6 typing from you? :tongue:


Ha! You know, you pose a very excellent question here. My brother and my best friend are both Fe/Ti cognition and 6w5s. She is Cp and he is phobic. This could be why I tend to associate them together. Thank you for pointing this out! I like to be aware of possible overlooks & gaps in my typing process.

I will also say this straight up: usually when I have a "What has been seen cannot be unseen!" moment with someone's typing, it ends up being correct. Before that, I am still 'percolating' and it's very, very hard to put that process into words. I am just gathering info, not really 'reasoning' it out internally. Then one day BOOM, I know their type. That being said, I have the most trouble with 6's. I don't know why this is. You'd think that being close to two 6's I would be able to spot them, but it tends to take me a lot longer to have the 'aha!' moment. Ironically I end up 'doubting' my typing when I feel like it might be a 6, haha!



Marlowe said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> It’s wholly possible I’m just “very, very sp.”
> 
> It just seems strange to me to chalk up my defensive strategies to instinct. But I guess instinct can be that influential?


I have read in some places that instinct affects someone more than type? I could see a case for it being very important, given that I'm Sx/Sp, and I'm a 4w3, and they say Sx/Sp tends to look like a 7, especially Sx/Sp 4's, and everyone and their mother on PerC has suggested type 7 to me at one point. However people who know me IRL consistently fail to believe me even when I tell them I had a 7 fix, lol. But the instinctual stacking especially in a 4 can lend itself to that 7ish appearance or id-like appearance I think?




TreasureTower said:


> @_Animal_, I think that 4w3 is correct.


Not 4w5? 


I'll be back to play more and I will type some of the people who joined in. ;D


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Pinkieshyrose said:


> Hi.:happy: Well I am slightly convinced that I am a 7w6 2w3 9w1 So/Sx But I am not sure if 2w3 7w6 9w1 or 7w6 2w3 9w1.
> 
> I also think it doesn't explain bits of my personality.
> 
> Uhh, sorry um I give consent....
> 
> 1. The different kind of shyness.
> 
> 2. The subtle and extreme analyzing in my head that is normally aimed at friends that I share sometimes which is normally accurate.
> 
> 3. Me believing in freedom and everyone being a "special snowflake". (Which I still do not get why it is a bad thing.)
> So I could be mistyping myself.:happy:


Um, sorry I forgot to say that I give consent...


----------



## Sina

Silveresque said:


> Yes, I've said things that sounded 6-ish, but the thing is that I just don't see type 6 issues being my core. When I made that thread, I was listing every single thing I could think of that could possibly make me a 6, and did the same with 9, because I thought it was between those two types. So of course I must have sounded very 6-ish. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything because at this point I don't think the things I listed are a very significant part of me in the big picture. Yes, I can be uncertain and indecisive at times. But this doesn't affect me anywhere near as deeply as other issues.


I understand that when people are considering certain types they can report in a way that can really highlight issues specific to those types. I pointed out in relation to what it is to be a 6 at the core, as opposed to stuff that looks 6-ish, for that reason. We grow and learn new things about ourselves, as have I. But, I would not recommend discarding what you have said at length about your difficulties with doubt and uncertainty. There are things I have said when I typed at 8 and 3 (which is still quite possible) that I always take into consideration because I said these things for a reason, and it's a mistake to overlook them as not part of the bigger picture. 

I have seen nothing from you that contradicts 6 or is an argument for anything positive outlook even remotely. So, again, that's my typing. You're free to disagree.





> Yes, this is probably true to some extent. And it's because people always seem to find a way to ignore, misinterpret, or disagree with just about everything I say. I feel constantly undervalued and misunderstood, and it's so frustrating. It's like...people are just full of opinions and judgments and can't be reasoned with. They're going to think whatever they want and there's nothing I can do to get my perspective across to them.


I understand. One can feel misunderstood in this situations. They'll think what they think, and if any part of what they say helps, use it and discard the rest. Keep it moving. Luckily for you, you've had your public typing journey here when things have changed vastly from how they used to be. But, you can't try and change people's opinions, especially those laced with biases.

For example, when I used to type at INFJ (lolz), I was seen as a very different person than when I typed at a Te dom. I have had a remarkably consistent way of interacting with folks here. You will not see me wildly contradict myself or put on a front, and even as a Te dom, I have never tried to live up to ANY kind of stereotyping. I express affection and compassion when it's due. I am empathetic when I want to be. I am a cold ass bitch in people's perception when I am dispassionate, factual, direct and blunt as fuck. I am the same person I've always been, but as a Te dom, I became a bully and other things in some people's eyes...and the same people used to sing my praises and bleat about how great it is that I was an honest, blunt, straightforward "NF". :laughing: Despite this, I've had suggestions (not on this thread) passive aggressively conveyed that I was a 'fake' when I typed at 3. So, people will think what they think.

Typing threads are not the best place to seek understanding and acceptance, though you must always be treated with respect and if someone types you by stereotypes or is blatantly biased for or against types, then they're an idiot. They always involve some conflict and disagreement. Sometimes, people are seeing what you're showing and can't see in yourself. There are a few out there who only see what they want to see. You'll have to ignore it.



> I don't have time right now to adequately explain my relation to type 2, but here's a post that demonstrates some of it: http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-f...-2-confessions-vents-rants-5.html#post4436115.


I will consider reading it.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

mushr00m said:


> *If ya think about it, the 1 and 4 fix blend together, you have strong opinions and are not afraid to voice them regardless of what others think!* :ninja: And the fact you said you felt embarrassed, points to a 3 wing, a tinge of self denial/3ish image concern(could be 7ish aswell) but ultimately 4 motivated, hehe!


that's probably accurate, though the 1w_9_ fix gives me a slightly gentler delivery when compared to 1w2 fixers like @Cosmic Orgasm or @Chipps


----------



## Kabosu

I give consent. Core and instincts, but if you agree, give a shot to tritype.

Edit: I feel less confident about the heart fix.


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> that's probably accurate, though the 1w_9_ fix gives me a slightly gentler delivery when compared to 1w2 fixers like @_Cosmic Orgasm_ or @_Chipps_



I may not be a 1w2 fixer.  Chipps is a better example. That said, I agree with the gist of it. 1w2 fixers are more zealous, can be harsher, pushier and more blunt/personal.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I may not be a 1w2 fixer.  Chipps is a better example. That said, I agree with the gist of it. 1w2 fixers are more zealous, can be harsher, pushier and more blunt/*personal*.


this is the biggest difference I've noticed. I'm plenty blunt, but I try to avoid making things personal as long as possible and I certainly never resort to the emotional power plays many 1w2 fixers do (can't stand that shit). most conflicts are logistical in nature, so I don't see the point in making them more emotional than they need to be.


----------



## Emerson

Re-type me dog. 

Lets do this.


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> this is the biggest difference I've noticed. I'm plenty blunt, but I try to avoid making things personal as long as possible and I certainly never resort to the emotional power plays many 1w2 fixers do (can't stand that shit). most conflicts are logistical in nature, so I don't see the point in making them more emotional than they need to be.


You're more of a provocative shit starter than you are "blunt". Though, you are more direct than most people here. 1w2 fixers may not necessarily involve emotional drama in a conflict, but they are less detached than 1w9 fixers. So, they tend to have little trouble giving people their own medicine. It may have nothing to do with emotions. 

Like, some of the more openly insulting people, when pushed, I know is a 1w2-7w8-3w2. She is very restrained and self-critical, but when someone starts shit, she has no trouble finishing it off on the same note. Past a point, she doesn't bother with civility or detachment much. 1w2 fixers are similar.


----------



## leafling

Feel free to touch me, ah I mean type me :blushed:

(currently type as 6w7-4w5-9w1 sp/sx)


----------



## Animal

Flatlander said:


> Ahah, wondered if someone would copy the INFJ thread concept.
> 
> I type, at the moment, as an sx/sp (sp/sx still possible) 5w4 2w3 8w9 INTJ, socionics ILI (considering Te subtype). If anyone has a different vision of my type, feel free to pose it. I prefer there to be reasoning/evidence so I can chew on your thought process.


INTJ 5w4-2w3-8w9 Sx/Sx 

Reasoning: I have rarely met someone more intense. You probe deeply and thoroughly, cut out all the extra crap and fluff, and get right down to the core of the issue. The way you direct your attention is very Ni-5SX.


----------



## Grau the Great

LOVE THESE THREADS. WOULDN'T MISS IT FOR ANYTHING. Lol, and to think this was going so calmly, too! xD

Anyway, here's the deal: cores I've considered recently are 1w2, 7w8 & 8w7. Tritype would be some version of 172 or 872. Instincts are obvious. Social by miles, then sp mostly by default, since both sp and sx are pretty damn weak.

So, share your thoughts PerC. Core superego, or core id + social instinct?

Have at it. :3


----------



## Ace Face

Come at me, Lords of Typology


----------



## Sina

Grau the Great said:


> LOVE THESE THREADS. WOULDN'T MISS IT FOR ANYTHING. Lol, and to think this was going so calmly, too! xD
> 
> Anyway, here's the deal: cores I've considered recently are 1w2, 7w8 & 8w7. Tritype would be some version of 172 or 872. Instincts are obvious. Social by miles, then sp mostly by default, since both sp and sx are pretty damn weak.
> 
> So, share your thoughts PerC. Core superego, or core id + social instinct?
> 
> Have at it. :3


DEFINITELY SO dom.

Now, I am not saying anything lofl I haven't already said. I lean more Social 7w8 for you. It stands well by itself, as a correctly typed core should. I don't see core reactive, though the reactivity I do see is well covered by a reactive wing. There's a pretty solid line to 1, even when I put the instinct aside and just see the core, beyond just resemblance to 1, that is also better explained by 7w8. I could see your heart fix as 2w3. 

Briefly, I'd say So/Sp 7w8-8w7 or 1w2-2w3. 8w7 core is not an outrageous typing or anything. I just don't see it, personally. I've talked about why I don't see core reactive with you earlier. The trust thing comes up for you more in matters of competency or emotional vulnerability, which is an issue for id/competency triaders as well. It's not the 8's sharp cynicism, though you may get quite judgmental, frustrated, critical and demanding like low-1. You don't really have any actual influence from 9 despite seeming like an 8w9 (a lot of id and some 1/ SO 6w5cp folks relate to 8w9 descriptions, with the holding of power in reserve, slow to anger, the friendlier presence and so on), and 8w7 core doesn't fit as well as 7w8 because of reactivity issues again. 

That's all I have for you, for now. XD


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Ace Face said:


> Come at me, Lords of Typology


7w6 or 6w7>1w2>2w? Sx/So


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Grau the Great
8w7 or 1w2 So/Sx imo. if 1w2, you definitely have a 7w8 fix. 

I second @Cosmic Orgasm's suggestion of 2w3 for your heart fix


----------



## Ace Face

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 7w6 or 6w7>1w2>2w? Sx/So


Thanks ^.^


----------



## Animal

Hmm, I should probably list my tritype and variants.

Right now I am typed at 4wX-8wX-7wX, ENFP or INFP, Sx/Sp. My best shot at the wings is 4w3-8w7-7w8. Please have at it, disagree or let me know if you have opinions on wings, etc.  

I will be back with more assessments too.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Ace Face said:


> Thanks ^.^


actually, I have a better typing:
6w7>1w2>4w? Sx/So. 

you don't strike me as particularly Sx 7-ish (at least not core. you lack the narcissism, positive outlook and escapist qualities), but you're spunky and somewhat angsty in a cp6w7 Sx sort of way (core reactive makes a lot more sense. you notice hypocrisy very quickly and are often the first to call out issues you feel are unfair or BS. the 6-ish desire to "expose" people seems to be very strong in you). upon further analysis, a 4 fix makes more sense for you because you seem to think a lot about how you define, express and differentiate yourself. a 2 fix is still a possibility, but you don't strike me as triple superego and seem to place more value on authenticity and individualism than a 2 fixer (however, there is absolutely no chance of you being a 3 fixer. your mistyping as a 3 was BULLSHIT :tongue: )
@Animal
4w3>7w6>8w7 Sx/Sp imo (unless I'm actually a mistyped 7w8, but I think your head fix is the same as mine :laughing: )


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> actually, I have a better typing:
> 6w7>1w2>4w? Sx/So.
> 
> you don't strike me as particularly Sx 7-ish (at least not core. you lack the narcissism, positive outlook and escapist qualities), but you're spunky and somewhat angsty in a cp6w7 Sx sort of way (core reactive makes a lot more sense. you notice hypocrisy very quickly and are often the first to call out issues you feel are unfair or BS. the 6-ish desire to "expose" people seems to be very strong in you). upon further analysis, a 4 fix makes more sense for you because you seem to think a lot about how you define, express and differentiate yourself. a 2 fix is still a possibility, but you don't strike me as triple superego and seem to place more value on authenticity and individualism than a 2 fixer (however, there is absolutely no chance of you being a 3 fixer. your mistyping as a 3 was BULLSHIT :tongue: )


I have considered 3 and 7 for @_Ace Face_. But, you make some good points. There's a lot of superego and core reactive -- "exposing" the Hypocrite or Crook/Liar as opposed to just condescendingly mocking hypocrisy like a 7 would-- and the lack of the positive outlook optimism bias actually makes for a decent cp6w7 suggestion. It's not like only reactives can find hypocrisy annoying. 8s, 1s, 7w8s in particular have lil tolerance for bullshit. But, the way she deals with it seems more 6 than 7...reflecting further. 

I notice pre-emption, tackling a potential problem before hand or preparing in advance so one is equipped to better handle it when shit hits the fan. Sp last is clear, so it's not that, nor is the pre-emption in the Sp realm primarily. A lot of clarity seeking and questioning is something I've observed as well. I also notice some of the Sx 6 strength and beauty theme. There's also the tendency to fight for the perceived underdog in a situation and to identify with that position, in a more impulsive way than a 3 or 7 would generally.

You're wrong about the no chance for 3 fix, though. I see a pretty clear 3w2 fix, assuming core isn't it, not that it's a..no way in hell is it possible thing.


----------



## qaryoqa

k


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Animal_
> 4w3>7w6>8w7 Sx/Sp imo (unless I'm actually a mistyped 7w8, but I think your head fix is the same as mine :laughing: )


I've been considering 7 > 8 as well, but the only reason I still type at 4 > 8 > 7 is because of how it looks irl over the span of my life. I could theorize that each of them sort of comes out "first" at different times, or they're equally balanced... but now I'm just pontificating aloud.. 

I would say we probably do have the same head-fix and it is hard to tell which wing. The only thing I can say that's different (which, idk if this is related to fix, wing or something else) is that you are much more provocative but I am much less likely to back down or drop it to do something else. I'm intense as fuck in any argument and will pound the other person's head in until its done, even if its a trite argument online, lol. But that might just be my core 4 like 'expressing myself'.. haha.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Animal
yeah, I've noticed that too (albeit I think you're much more polite and patient than you give yourself credit for. your style of social bitc slap has a much lighter, more tempered touch than most of the reactive types I've met)


----------



## Paradigm

Doge said:


> Part of why I changed my heart fix to 4w5 is because I can relate to both head sides and if I didn't know the image fix then maybe it was because it's a wing outside of the image triad.


Most people will relate to both of their wings. I come of as a 5 more than I do a 6w7 (in real life / real time), but I use 7 coping mechanisms so much more frequently than I do 5.


Edited to add to avoid double-posting:


Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> I think you are correctly typed
> (but as for your mbti type.. I think it is rather INFP, not sure why - you strive me as a STRONG Fi user)


That's fair. I've debated over this myself for two years, though I think ISFP is more likely than INFP (I don't relate much to Ne/Si). Honestly, it's only been very recently that I've been willing to truly accept the probability (IMO) of being INTJ.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Phoenix_Rebirth
you make some compelling points, but I'm really not fake-it-til-you-make-it at all. the fakest I can be is acting professional (which isn't hard), not saying anything or wearing nice clothing (actually, come to think of it, that's not fake at all. wearing _worse_ looking clothing deliberately would be fake for me :tongue: ). the 4 fix had been in the back of my head bugging me for a long time, so I decided to read Naranjo's description and, sure enough, I related to about 40% of it. past superficial traits (ambition, some degree of (acquired) charm, confidence, etc), I didn't relate to 3 at all. 

perhaps it's the difference between 4 fix channeled through core 6 vs core 7
*4 fixed 6:* "I'm proud of my defects. they are a part of who I am"
*4 fixed 7:* "flaws? oh, you mean my _eccentricities_? yeah, I have a few quirks. people will adjust to them"

imagine a fat woman with lots of acne saying "I'm not ugly, I'm an acquired taste  " 
this is kind of how I view my flaws. I'm aware of them, I just reframe the shit out of them (of course _deep_ down, I'm still aware they're flaws, but this takes a fair amount of digging)

I have a quiet pride in the suffering which I have endured (which is mostly imaginary) and spend long periods of time endlessly reflecting on my feelings (though the degree to which I actually experience them is lesser), but, at the same time, when something truly vulnerable is let out, it's a bit embarrassing


----------



## Paradigm

Swordsman of Mana said:


> perhaps it's the difference between 4 fix channeled through core 6 vs core 7
> *4 fixed 6:* "I'm proud of my defects. they are a part of who I am"
> *4 fixed 7:* "flaws? oh, you mean my _eccentricities_? yeah, I have a few quirks. people will adjust to them"


Last night, one of my friends went into this whole thing about how he had only a few -manias (think pyromania, hypomania, etc.) because he wanted to be "efficient" about his mental issues, then went on to describe how one day he wants to be rich so he'll be called _eccentric_ instead of _crazy_. Kinda starting to think his heart fix is 4w3... I've typed him as 7w6-9w8-XwX, ENTP.

The 4-fixed 6 part is definitely me. Matter-of-fact tone: "Yup, these are my flaws. Better not try to change who I am."


----------



## Flatlander

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Hmmm I don't know you very well, but I find it hard to see as an 8 fix with you. You seem to lack the reactive traits of one..


I don't expect it to be seen much at all in this context. It's a forum, naturally social-geared and full, and I have negative inclination toward meaningful interaction with groups. It comes out more in one on one interactions, when I have a stake in something or want to influence, and then it's still buried under a withdrawn core with core 2 optimism at its more immediate periphery. 

Still would be interesting to hear what you do see.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Phoenix_Rebirth_
> perhaps it's the difference between 4 fix channeled through core 6 vs core 7
> *4 fixed 6:* "I'm proud of my defects. they are a part of who I am"
> *4 fixed 7:* "flaws? oh, you mean my _eccentricities_? yeah, I have a few quirks. people will adjust to them"


LOL at this! :laughing:




> imagine a fat woman with lots of acne saying "I'm not ugly, I'm an acquired taste  "
> this is kind of how I view my flaws. I'm aware of them, I just reframe the shit out of them (of course _deep_ down, I'm still aware they're flaws, but this takes a fair amount of digging)


Very 7, if you ask me


----------



## DomNapoleon

Kito said:


> Nearly everyone I've spoken to says I'm an obvious 6w7, but it's worth a go anyway. :laughing:


You strive me as highly reactive.. I agree with 6w7 core :laughing: I would suggest 4w3 and 9w8 as for the fixes. Maybe So/Sx?


----------



## Paradigm

@Swordsman of Mana - 
Not to derail the thread too much into MBTI, but I'm curious, do you think INTJ fits for me?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Paradigm said:


> @Swordsman of Mana -
> Not to derail the thread too much into MBTI, but I'm curious, do you think INTJ fits for me?


I don't see anything that would suggest otherwise


----------



## meridannight

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> The only thing I would change in your type it would be the wing.. 8w9 could also fit. You seem to have a strong connection to E9.


:happy: i do have a strong connection to 9 (even though my core gobbles most of it up on the surface). i still think w7 makes more sense on the whole, but it's not impossible that i have balanced wings or even w9. 

8w9 with 874 tritype....i will think about that.


----------



## Animal

@_meridannight_ If nothing else your tritype is crystal clear. I also lean 8w7 over 8w9, and I think 7w8 and 4w3 are correct as well. If you made a case for any of those cores, I'd listen, but I think you're correctly typed. 8w7 makes sense.

Not that I wouldn't listen to another case, I'd just be much more skeptical. 

Although you know I share your feelings about typing people over the internet. This is just based on what I've observed.


----------



## Quernus

Feel free to let me know if you think I'm mistyped in anyway! I'm in a better place to be able to consider such suggestions at this time.


----------



## Quernus

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *consent given*


I was surprised to see you change your heart fix to "4". Maybe because of all your Four-bashing 

But I read your reasoning on why you think you're more 4-fixed than 3 and it does make sense, but you definitely give off more of a 3-fix "vibe" to me. Maybe it's somehow the combination of 7 and 1... I don't know.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

The Scorched Earth said:


> Do I come off as Sx-first or Sp-first?


Eh, fuck it. I'm more confident that I'm Sx/Sp than anything else, unless someone is fool enough to challenge that. XD


----------



## Grad0507

I'll throw myself in the ring. If I were to give the top three possible choices it would be the following (in descending order): ENFJ, INFJ, ENTJ


----------



## Entropic

I'm bored and it's Christmas (over here at least). But if you are going to suggest 4w5 as either my heart fix or core, please give a good explanation why. Be original. My types are in my sig.


----------



## Chipps

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I may not be a 1w2 fixer.  Chipps is a better example. That said, I agree with the gist of it. 1w2 fixers are more zealous, can be harsher, pushier and more blunt/personal.



What? Me? I would never.

:tongue:


----------



## Chipps

Swordsman of Mana said:


> this is the biggest difference I've noticed. I'm plenty blunt, but I try to avoid making things personal as long as possible and I certainly never resort to the emotional power plays many 1w2 fixers do (can't stand that shit). most conflicts are logistical in nature, so I don't see the point in making them more emotional than they need to be.


You are a lot of things SOM but you are not blunt. Generally, if one has to say they are, they aren't.

Also, what do you mean by emotional power plays? I don't understand the concept as you've said it there. I have one play. Its called a boot to the face and it usually shuts people up.


----------



## Animal

i want more big 7s!! moar!


----------



## Kabosu

Wow much redirect: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/168597-am-i-doing-right.html

As a heads up:
formerly atypeofuser (spring 2012-fall 2013)
Dramatic, but I try to keep my past at a distance if I can and for decent reason. Tends to otherwise not be so much the case.


----------



## DomNapoleon

ephemereality said:


> I'm bored and it's Christmas (over here at least). *But if you are going to suggest 4w5 as either my heart fix or core, please give a good explanation* *why.* Be original. My types are in my sig.


LOL

My suggestion: 5w4-1w9-3w4.


----------



## Sina

TreasureTower said:


> @_mushr00m_ and @_Cosmic Orgasm_, I should also add that I don't at all relate to the 6s relationship with authority. I hardly ever think about that and I personally know people who do. I also always make up my own mind about everything and trust my judgement. I have a 6 friend and she is always asking me to help her make decisions that I really don't have an answer to. I OTOH< totally trust my judgement in things. I always make sure that I have all of the facts and have thought everything logically through but beyond that; I always have the last say in pretty much any opinion or course of action I take. As far as the issues that I often feel a need to voice my opinion in; I don't allow my opinion to ever be influenced by others and will always go with whatever I believe to be either logical or right.


Pointless stereotypes about 6s lacking the capacity for independent thought and all that garbage. Discard them. If you trust your judgment as much as you claim to, you wouldn't be as clarity and opinion seeking as you are. Clearly, people are here seeking opinions on type, and they're not all 6s. With that said, you have a very push-pull consultative style that is not contrary to 6 even if you make up your own mind as a lot of 6s and 6 fixers do.



> I am frequently alternating between my fear of being engulfed and annihilated - 5 with my desire for intensity and connection - 4.


6s and even 6 fixers can have a major fear of being affected or engulfed. Desire for intensity and connection is not limited to 4 influence.



> I would sooner think of 7 as my core, than 6. I am usually upbeat, tend to reframe things and am always looking for the silver lining. I also relate to the 7s need to equalise authority. I prefer being democratic to either telling anyone else what to do or being told what to do. However, I neither have a particular problem either following any legitimate authority or if need be; acting as one, myself. I do see myself as a fear type because I am constantly afraid of being swallowed up and/or overwhelmed by the outside world.


7 may be your core sure, but 6w7 is a decent possibility as well. I no longer take shit at face value when people talk about being oh so trusting, as I have come to realize plenty of 6w7s say that about themselves, including some who downright call themselves "very trusting" and "positive". It's easier to see the contradictions to this with a clear reactive outlook in their words and actions elsewhere or at least on their questionnaire. Besides, 6s can be plenty fuckin upbeat.

7s are very entitled and superior in their heads and equalize authority for that reason. 6w7s don't like alienating authority and others around them and so can be democratic for that reason.


----------



## Sina

mushr00m said:


> That's some funny shit right there :laughing: My blood pressure is boiling through the roof. Please continue, if I need to take out life insurance, well im fackin facked! :tongue: It was totes worth it though!


Lemme go call the whambulance for ya, mama.  

:laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I have also been typed an ESTP because I am a martial artist, did theatre, love being on stage and enjoy BDSM Oh..:mellow: I am immensely attracted to "Sensors", so I actually take an ESTP typing as a great compliment.


Of course. Only Se-types like rough sex. :laughing:

Personally I can see you as an ESTJ, but I think Flatty already explained it better than I could.

By the way, is it weird that I was a little thrown off the first time I encountered the "fluffy happy-go-lucky"-stereotype for type 7? My impression was more along the lines of addicts. *cough*

Also, @Animal seems rather heavy with longing to me, but then I also talk with her on skype. Frustration-type makes sense for her, which can also make a case for 7, but overall I'm leaning 4 as well.
@TreasureTower since you also asked for people's opinion, I'll admit I don't quite see 4-fix for you based on your posts here (already commented on the 9-impression... but I agree with w8 for your 9-fix over w1. You seem to have an assertive bent.). 

However, I see what you're saying about it being hard to open up, even under a screen name. I'm still not sure if people get the right impression of me because there are parts of me that makes my skin crawl + I have _some _self-preservation (though I'm not sure where in my stacking sp is). Overall I experience myself as very open though.


----------



## Chesire Tower

mimesis said:


> TreasureTower said:
> 
> 
> 
> @mimesis, @kaleidoscope ; BOTH of you are right. SOME people feel safe enough on this forum to express their "shame" or any other weakness they think they have and that's great; I say, more power to them. *applause*
> 
> Others, OTOH, fit more like what mimesis, @Animal and myself are saying. For example, I was registered on here for close to three months, before I ever made a single post on here and then I agonized for the longest time over deleting it because I am such an extremely private person; that it was excruciating to feel that exposed. I'm obviously glad that I did not delete that post in retrospect, because as Animal has said, "baby steps" lol. I have developed greater courage in facing up to those weaknesses, BECAUSE of PerC but I still have a very long way to go. Whatever distance it takes Animal to do that; just multiply it by 100,000, for me. But for instance, someone tells about having this problem. Then what is the strategy behind this self-disclosure (as a coping style)? Very often people don't really want to hear about how to solve the problem ('adaptive behavioral') but seem more to be seeking to be soothed by the fact that others suffer this as well.
> 
> 
> 
> But for instance, someone tells about having this problem. Then what is the strategy behind this self-disclosure (as a coping style)? Very often people don't really want to hear about how to solve the problem ('adaptive behavioral') but seem more to be seeking to be soothed by the fact that others suffer this as well.
Click to expand...

Are you asking me what the strategy would be in the case of someone who self-disclosed in order to achieve "soothing" as opposed to "how to solve the problem"?

Well, that the "strategy" in that case would be for validation from one's peers, I guess; where as self-disclosure as a method for problem solving would be self-evident.



mimesis said:


> Coping said:
> 
> 
> 
> The psychology textbook by Weiten has provided a useful summary of three broad types of coping strategies:
> 
> 
> appraisal-focused (adaptive cognitive)
> problem-focused: Any coping behavior that is directed at reducing or eliminating a stressor, adaptive behavioral
> emotion-focused: Directed towards changing one's own emotional reaction to a stressor
Click to expand...

I love the way you come up with names like "Coping" in your quotes. :laughing:

I think that I use both. I initially try to resolve the problem and failing that; try to change my reaction to it. Anything else, is pointless.

I mean it's always nice and helpful for other people to understand but if you don't do the above; then you'd just be going around in circles.


----------



## Sina

LMAO @ posted by "coping" :laughing: @mimesis you crack me up.


----------



## kaleidoscope

mimesis said:


> If you don't think so, why even judge people based on their behavior on the forum, and take their self-report at face value? I'd say I am a lot more reserved in this, actually.


Do you see any purpose in this thread? Since obviously, you cannot know someone online, neither from their self-reporting or personal observation?

I'm curious as to why you're posting in here. Animal asked for input on her type, I provided it.


----------



## Animal

I don't feel judged. The only reason I even wrote an argument was because of info about type 4 and 4w5 which I felt was inaccurate about the type, and I wanted to put in my two cents. I also wanted to explain what I mean by goal-orientation, pursuing my goals ruthlessly, etc. It's not that I want to convince someone of my type - for that is impossible. Your type speaks for itself. You can't hide it. It can be harder to spot on some people than others, but you can't list a bunch of qualities to explain why you are that type. I've learned that from mistyping and making the over-analyzing mistake myself. You just are. Whatever you are, you are. So there's no reason to defend it or tell someone what you are. It will show, and that's it.

I just wanted to correct what I meant by goal-orientation and how I see that particular facet as it relates to type 4. My type speaks for itself so I have nothing to prove and I do not see another type-suggestion or analysis as an accusation. Especially 7. Everyone on this forum should know- if you've been to the 7 forum- I fucking love that type. I would see no reason to be upset by being told I seem like a 7, or discovering that in fact I am a 7.

But in the interest of honesty I wanted to discuss my relationship with goal-orientation. That's all.


----------



## Paradigm

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> 6s and even 6 fixers can have a major fear of being affected or engulfed. Desire for intensity and connection is not limited to 4 influence.


Definitely. I always feel creeped out when it's said/implied that to be not-SX-last, I have to enjoy being "as one" with someone else. Now, I love being super close to someone, and that connection of SXness is very satisfying to me... But there's this instinct in me to stay a separate person at all times. No merging or engulfing for me, thanks.

---

@Animal - With all respect, I get the feeling like you're using your art to rationalize your typing. As I'm sure you've heard before, not only type 4s are artists, and certainly not only type 4s feel like their art is their life. Even an id type can be that way.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> @_Animal_ - With all respect, I get the feeling like you're using your art to rationalize your typing. As I'm sure you've heard before, not only type 4s are artists, and certainly not only type 4s feel like their art is their life. Even an id type can be that way.


I appreciate the thought but I am not under the impression that id types can't be artists and that is not my rationale for my typing. Again just in the interest of honesty, not in the interest of convincing you of my type  any opinion on my type is fine but I like to be clear about where I stand. This simply is not true - considering that I've been an artist since I was born and I mistyped at 5w4, 8w7, and 3w4 before this.


----------



## Chesire Tower

@Cosmic Orgasm, I do see your point and I never said that 6 wasn't a valid suggestion for my type; as far as I'm concerned the only truly "out there" suggestions for my core would be a 3, 8 or 1 - in that order but that still doesn't necessarily mean I'm a 6. I don't believe I'm a 6 for more reasons then I have already suggested but I just don't think it fits and you can reject my reasons as invalid but nothing that has been said before, in this thread; has made me reconsider my current typing to a 6 (even more so for 9).

Honestly, there are only three types that I could possibly be and you did mention one of them as a possibility.



Nonsense said:


> By the way, is it weird that I was a little thrown off the first time I encountered the "fluffy happy-go-lucky"-stereotype for type 7? My impression was more along the lines of addicts. *cough*
> 
> Also, @Animal seems rather heavy with longing to me, but then I also talk with her on skype. Frustration-type makes sense for her, which can also make a case for 7, but overall *I'm leaning 4 as well*.
> @TreasureTower since you also asked for people's opinion, I'll admit I don't quite see 4-fix for you based on your posts here (already commented on the 9-impression... but *I agree with w8 for your 9-fix over w1. You seem to have an assertive bent*.).
> 
> However, I see what you're saying about it being hard to open up, even under a screen name. I'm still not sure if people get the right impression of me because there are parts of me that makes my skin crawl + I have _some _self-preservation (though I'm not sure where in my stacking sp is). Overall I experience myself as very open though.


Yes, This! This, so much!

As @mimesis and @Animal have already pointed out; self-disclosure comes more naturally to some than others and getting me to really open up and make myself that vulnerable is more difficult than pulling teeth. I am well aware that I could almost entirely avoid all of the typing drama I have endured on and off this forum; if I could just some how just _will_ myself to do it. I am very serious here; I have actually lost friends over this - no, I am not kidding and In both cases; the reason was an inferred lack of honesty on my part - which was patently untrue BTW but still wounds me, because I hate more than anything; to be misunderstood.

That's why I think that I am a 5w4; because I can't really connect with my emotions at any deep meaningful level but when they descend down upon me; I experience them with a frightening intensity. If I were somehow magically able to connect with them; I might be far better at expressing my reasoning for my type. There is probably _less_ than a handful of people on PerC that I have come even _marginally_ close, to doing that with. I'm not sure if it's more I don't feel I can or more that I honestly don't know how to. 

I wish that I could find a way to do this, because whenever someone questions the sincerity of my motives or doesn't believe me, when I am truly speaking from the heart; I feel like I am being kicked in the stomach, repeatedly and I am so tired of not being believed.

:sad:


----------



## Sina

@_TreasureTower_

I could maybe see 3, but types 8 and 1 are like..out of the question for your core type. You're absolutely not an 8 or a 1. They're incredible grounded, assertive and decisive types. At most, you have an 8 wing on a 9 fix. It's really fuckin rare for me to tell someone there ain't no chance in hell they're a type, but that applies to the 8 and 1 stuff you mentioned to the T. 

You don't have to buy all the 6 suggestions, obviously. But, that's what I see as the strongest contender for your core type with 7 next.

P.S. LOL sorry, I *totally *misread that..You're right that 8 and 1 are "out there" like way out of the boundary line lolll.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> Definitely. I always feel creeped out when it's said/implied that to be not-SX-last, I have to enjoy being "as one" with someone else. Now, I love being super close to someone, and that connection of SXness is very satisfying to me... But there's this instinct in me to stay a separate person at all times. No merging or engulfing for me, thanks.


Same here! Although I've been told that I come across as sx-last, so that could be part of it for me, but I've considered both 6-core and 9-core for myself (and not 5), and I don't want to be engulfed by anyone. The thought of totally merging with someone else kind of creeps me out.


----------



## mushr00m

TreasureTower said:


> Okay, well thank God for that! I am so :bored: with having a 9 suggested as my core. I see why you think I have a superego bent; I think that I am more reactive and more laid back than a 9w1 would be but yeah, as I said in the tritype thread; I keep alternating between 9w1, 9w8 and 1w2 for gut fix.


Well, the 9's there for sure :wink: Can't say I see the 1w2 thoughs. 



> I do like a lot of external feedback as far as my type me type of threads go or in understanding various typology systems. Is that what you're referring to by my "needing external feedback"? but I just put that down to having a Te PoLR {Socionics, for most difficult function to use for IEI (or MBTI INFJ)}


From all your type me threads i've seen in the forum, your self reporting reminds me so much of many 6w7's(inc me) that put the info out there, question people's responses and extend the process as long as possible to gain more info which is then scrutinized and so on, not always to understand but to test... It's just so reminiscent of 6 style questioning that i've seen. Even now you are taking leaps into what im saying, it sounds so contingency planned style for lack of a better term. 



> I am retentive when it come to relationships and boundaries. I am very guarded with both revealing my feelings and disclosing personal information. I don't see myself as a 6 because I am more likely to be trusting than suspicious of others in general. I tend to usually give others the benefit of the doubt unless - until, they give me a reason to be suspicious.


Me too! :kitteh:



> For example: If people behave inconsistently with me; it really bugs me; however, *if they are highly responsive and too predictable, I want them to mix things up a bit because it creates more drama that way.*


This points away from 5. And that also sounds like a 'reactive' style stuff(4, 6, 8). And SX. 



> I don't really see a 3 wing - even though I can understand how I come across to others and can alter it; if I absolutely need to; I really hate to do that because being authentic and true to myself is really important to me. * I also obsess all the time about whether or not others see the real me or not and nothing upsets me more than being misunderstood by others. * I sometimes have the sense that I am helpless to express how I'm truly feeling to others. That could also be due to the fact; that most of the time; I honestly don't have a clue as to what I'm actually feeling.


I understand your an Fe type which explains why you don't understand how your feeling. The highlighted is what I mean though about being orientated to others. 4w5 wouldn't be so concerned about how they are seen by others. 

Ill respond to some of your other stuff innabit.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_TreasureTower_
> 
> I could maybe see 3, but types 8 and 1 are like..out of the question for your core type. You're absolutely not an 8 or a 1. They're incredible grounded, assertive and decisive types. At most, you have an 8 wing on a 9 fix. It's really fuckin rare for me to tell someone there ain't no chance in hell they're a type, but that applies to the 8 and 1 stuff you mentioned to the T.
> 
> You don't have to buy all the 6 suggestions, obviously. But, that's what I see as the strongest contender for your core type with 7 next.


Oh, no problemo; like I said, the only "out there" suggestions as far as I'm concerned ARE 3,8, and 1 and in that order. Like I said, I don't see any chance in hell, I could be any of those types either; so I agree with you there. =XD

I just don't understand how you see a 3 at all? 3 is like my #1 anti-type, if ever there was one.



I do see 7 as a possibility but I would have to be the most introverted 7 ever, since I practically live in my head and I am far more likely to dissociate, than escape into mindless activity - unless it's like a 5 disintegrating to 7, would but I definitely do see a 7 fix; even if it is not my head fix. Perhaps @Swordsman of Mana could explain to me how that could work? 

Perhaps, you could elaborate on why you think I could be a 7; as that's one of the three possibilities that would make the most sense to me.


ETA: I'm trying to decide if that's funnier than my figuratively giving poor Russ Hudson a premature burial.


----------



## Paradigm

@_Nonsense_, @_Cosmic Orgasm_ 
On the subject of 6s and being separate, from http://home.primusonline.com.au/peony/palmer_work_and_love.htm:



> A Six wants to affect you (for example, through warmth, by a dutiful alliance, or through sexual power) rather than be affected. Sixes find it frightening to have their own desires aroused, to realize that they are vulnerable to what others do. They prefer to show strength by assisting others to attain their goals, are capable of significant self-sacrifice.


While I think it's overstated a bit (as usual), it's relateable. I tend to show affection through acts and support rather than words, but I figured that was more of an xxTJ thing than a 6 thing.


----------



## mimesis

kaleidoscope said:


> Do you see any purpose in this thread? Since obviously, you cannot know someone online, neither from their self-reporting or personal observation?
> 
> I'm curious as to why you're posting in here. Animal asked for input on her type, I provided it.


Did I say that? I thought you were making those statements about forum behavior. 

And I am not saying it's impossible to judge at all. I suggested not taking too much at face value. Especially when it comes to shame, or with regard to compliance to expected social behavior. But you can still look for social cues, notice inconsistencies between words and action, and see through the impression management.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> While I think it's overstated a bit (as usual), it's relateable. I tend to show affection through acts and support rather than words, but I figured that was more of an xxTJ thing than a 6 thing.


Well, I definitely wouldn't call myself self-sacrificial, but that sounds interesting. Will have to take a look at that link.

(And I have art to work on. orz PerC is too distracting. :tongue


----------



## mushr00m

mimesis said:


> Now we may get lost in semantics and mixing up theoretical models. But sure, Fe (dom/aux) would probably be more perceptive of what is appropriate in a social context, more likely than Fi, but that doesn't equal Fe to Soc, or doesn't make Soc for Fi necessarily a blindspot. Actually, I never heard of counter-soc, so I am not sure what you mean with this. I would agree that Soc instinct doesn't necessarily make them social beings,
> 
> Rebellion is resistance and transgression of boundaries, which I think corresponds more with Sx instinct rather than 'negotiating' boundaries of the So instinct, which would encompass social (self) reclusion. The 4 Sx would be most likely (trying to) deny shame and feelings of inferiority, for instance through a narcissistic persona (and there is obviously a relation between narcissism and conveying a (false) display of confidence/self-esteem).
> 
> Also at some point 'rebellious' becomes 'in group' conformation, as 'rebellious' subcultures all have their dresscodes, normative behavior etc. In that respect, truly 'rebellious' and counter-shame may be to decide to dress sexy as a punk band, like one of our 4 Sx PerC members did, which met great resistance (and shaming) even within this counter-subculture.


I never made the direct correlation between soc and Fe. Im putting the two together to see what it would look like together, how they would reinforce each other. Counter-social, yeah, I made that up because this opposite attitude to social considerations is a part of the social realm, conformity versus nonconformity, we need to consider that response to certain social patterns into our perception and understanding of the social variant, it's not soc blindspot because it seeks to affect the social realm, there is a concern there. 



> but rebellion is essentially different from voluntary seclusion.


Rebellion the way im interpreting it socially, is pushing against something related to the social realm, e.g establishment, social etiquette etc. The list goes on...



> Rebellion is resistance and transgression of boundaries, which I think corresponds more with Sx instinct rather than 'negotiating' boundaries of the So instinct, which would encompass social (self) reclusion. The 4 Sx would be most likely (trying to) deny shame and feelings of inferiority, for instance through a narcissistic persona (and there is obviously a relation between narcissism and conveying a (false) display of confidence/self-esteem).


Im thinking your describing the soc/sx or sx/soc stacking in particular here. Avoidance of the social realm is prolly not as simple as typing someone soc last I don't think, there are many more factors to consider why in particular they are avoidant of groups of others, I tend to think of soc as thinking in terms of collective viewpoints whether negative/positive and will fluctuate depending on someone's health level.


----------



## Chesire Tower

mushr00m said:


> TreasureTower said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do like a lot of external feedback as far as my type me type of threads go or in understanding various typology systems. Is that what you're referring to by my "needing external feedback"? but I just put that down to having a Te PoLR {Socionics, for most difficult function to use for IEI (or MBTI INFJ)}
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the 9's there for sure :wink: Can't say I see the 1w2 thoughs.
> 
> From all your type me threads i've seen in the forum, your self reporting reminds me so much of many 6w7's(inc me) that put the info out there, question people's responses and extend the process as long as possible to gain more info which is then scrutinized and so on, *not always to understand but to test*... It's just so reminiscent of 6 style questioning that i've seen. Even now you are taking leaps into what im saying, *it sounds so contingency planned style for lack of a better term*.
Click to expand...

Okay, I agree with most of what you've said here but what I've bolded: I vehemently disagree with you here. I am not trying to test anything; all I am trying to do; _is_ to *understand*. The reason I brought up my having a Te PoLR was because I seriously question that I act this way - OUTSIDE of typing threads; I rarely seek other's input in forming my opinions, otherwise. As for "planning"? I am not planning anything but if I disagree with something that is said; doesn't it make sense that I should say so?


Again 'though, this is my point; when if ever do I do this _outside_ of those kind of threads? 



mushr00m said:


> Me said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am retentive when it come to relationships and boundaries. I am very guarded with both revealing my feelings and disclosing personal information. I don't see myself as a 6 because I am more likely to be trusting than suspicious of others in general. I tend to usually give others the benefit of the doubt unless - until, they give me a reason to be suspicious.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too! :kitteh:
Click to expand...

But WHY do you do this? I do it primarily because I see my feelings and personal information as something that belongs to me and ONLY me and that by _sharing_ it, with another human being; allows them into an extremely private world that I want to selfishly hold on to and not allow anyone to intrude upon.



mushr00m said:


> Me said:
> 
> 
> 
> For example: If people behave inconsistently with me; it really bugs me; however, if they are highly responsive and too predictable, I want them to mix things up a bit because it creates more drama that way.
> 
> 
> 
> This points away from 5. And that also sounds like a 'reactive' style stuff(4, 6, 8). And SX.
Click to expand...

Yes but I'm _ambivalent_ about that and I even more, FEAR the drama that might ensure. Whenever that has happened to me; I feel like am helpless and being pulled into some strangulating vortex that I can never break free from. Why SX? I really think I'm more SO because I need to keep others at a comfortable distance - always. I like companionship but don't like getting to close. That's where I see my 4 fix coming in; I try not to act on it but in my mind; I am usually doing the push-pull thing to keep others at the "right" distance. However, my #1 fear is that others may either engulf, destroy me, devalue and demean our connection, swallow me up and spit me out, etc.



mushr00m said:


> Me said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really see a 3 wing - even though I can understand how I come across to others and can alter it; if I absolutely need to; I really hate to do that because being authentic and true to myself is really important to me. I also obsess all the time about whether or not others see the real me or not and nothing upsets me more than being misunderstood by others. I sometimes have the sense that I am helpless to express how I'm truly feeling to others. That could also be due to the fact; that most of the time; I honestly don't have a clue as to what I'm actually feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> *I understand your an Fe type which explains why you don't understand how your feeling.* The highlighted is what I mean though about being orientated to others. 4w5 wouldn't be so concerned about how they are seen by others.
Click to expand...

Thank you for explaining that to me - the bolded part. :happy: Outside of explaining my feelings to others; I am actually very good with communicating. If I never had to talk about my feelings; I would probably never have a single argument. 

I see but I relate to more of the 5s description and issues than I do to 3s and unless my safety is somehow threatened; I never alter my presentation, INTENTIONALLY in any way that is in anyway contrary to how I see myself.

But I see, so maybe I am a 5w4 4w3 9w8 (w1) instead. Hmmmm . . . 
On the PerC test; I always get 5wX for head and core, 4w5 for heart and the gut has been one of the three types I have already mentioned.



mushr00m said:


> Ill respond to some of your other stuff innabit.


Bring it. :kitteh:


----------



## hal0hal0

Note: I'm not interested in soliciting opinions on my type because my type is my business and I don't feel like being that peacock that has to "prove" my type to anyone (and that's actually why I don't display my type anymore.). But, for the record (since being a "unknown" can be its own sort of label, anyways), I'm currently bouncing between a 1w9 and 4w5 core (I admit there's some bias in me wanting to see 1w9... I feel 4s have too much glamour (and anti-glamour, which is really just another kind of glamour) surrounding them).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I generally don't type other people because I tend to project my own biases onto a typing, so I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt than start pointing fingers everywhere (I notice my "gut" typings for people I admire/like tend to have a 7 core or 7 fix, for instance). Enneagram types are not rigid boxes, nor do I believe them to be like exclusive clubs where some are allowed and others are not. In other words, I do not believe it's possible to say, _objectively_, that someone is or isn't a type. Each enneagram type is ultimately dealing with the same fundamental dilemmas of creating our own traps, blowing very specific fixations out of proportion, neglecting other aspects of life, etc. ("*Prisoners of our own device"* to evoke Hotel California).

I mostly give the benefit of the doubt, if someone says they are a certain type. I tend to take the self-typing over what I perceive the typing to be, because of my own biases and pride (assuming the self-typer has a good understanding of the basic theory). I cannot read minds, nor do I believe that I can ultimately experience another person's experience (RD Laing goes into this quite a bit in _The Politics of Experience_). It's like how people argue whether someone is a "true fan" of a band or artist or whatever. It's easy to get caught up in labeling or assigning labels, long past its expiration date. Now, I'm not saying "don't discuss labels" because I find it enjoyable and fun to play around with these things and it can be insightful. BUT, I feel there's a tendency to get caught up in the politics of experience, rather than the experience itself. A great example, duhduhduh... is politics (i.e., this is what logical fallacies like ad hominem, ad populum, etc. are for).

Playing with labels can also reveal truths that were previously hidden to the individual... like, entertaining certain _*possibilities*_ that one has previously closed themselves off to. This is transitioning from "4s have a negative self-image" to "4s _may_ have a negative self-image." Now, this isn't to breakdown categories altogether, because then what's the point of the theory? (Gotta make my peace with inferior Te, HA). But I believe that in typology, the boxes are often too rigidly defined, and there is a lot of pride and vanity (as general concepts, not enneagram related per se) in terms of typing other people than oneself.

In fact, it was Jung who said in _Psychological Types _(for reference: in Summary of Extraverted Rational Types):



> If observation is restricted to outward behavior, without any concern for the internal economy of the individual's consciousness, one may get an even stronger impression of manifestations than the reasonableness of his conscious intentions and motivations.* I therefore base my judgment on what the individual feels to be his conscious psychology.*


Jung reiterated this sentiment in _The Undiscovered Self_. Namely, that making typology "objective" and trying to rigidly categorize the human psyche would ultimately be to the detriment to individual values. This is a postmodern pluralist issue, I believe... You see it as "agreeing to disagree" or "everyone's entitled to their opinion." I think that's where a lot of good disagreement occurs in terms of reconciling intrinsic truth with "fluff." Simultaneously existing, yet contradictory, truths.

Forum posts are also severely limited in terms of capturing the whole picture. This goes for taking things at face value as well as "reading between the lines."



mimesis said:


> Also at some point 'rebellious' becomes 'in group' conformation, as 'rebellious' subcultures all have their dresscodes, normative behavior etc.


I've been thinking about that a lot, actually. I notice, for instance, that obscurity can be its own sort of mainstream. Like, some people are so quick to reject the mainstream that I deliberately glorify it, at times. Here's my motto:

"Popularity is no indication of how good, bad, or mediocre a thing is. The same holds for obscurity."


----------



## Chesire Tower

ephemereality said:


> But in a previous post you just wrote you have issues dealing with emotions, experiencing emotions and feeling emotions...? That seems pretty contradictory since I just wrote that I experience a lot of emotions as a 5w4, and you now claim it sounds like you to a T.


I do experience a lot of emotions; I don't always know what I'm feeling at the time and when I do; I often have trouble identifying it. I am a very emotional person; I scored limbic on the SLOAN - Big 5.

When I experience an emotion I do exactly what you described in your post above. I can't think - let alone talk about my feelings without intellectualizing them. I always subject any moods I have to rigorous analysis. I want to know why I feel a certain way. What is the origin of said feelings. Is the feeling rational or not. Do I have a logical basis for acting on it? If I feel sad, I may attribute it to being tired. If I am angry, I may attribute it to forgetting to take my B-complex or I might decide that they are valid and I should seriously consider investigating them furthers. Like you said in your quote; when I get them; they can be overwhelmingly intense.

I think the issue for me is not so much that I don't feel anything; it's more that I often fear that my ego can't handle whatever it is that I'm feeling; so if the feeling is intense and scary enough; my default IMO is to immediately detach from it; so it can't overwhelm me.

I do have trouble describing the specific nature of the emotion that I am feeling; I usually only can tell if what I'm feeling is positive or negative, the intensity of it and its context. If somebody hurts my feelings; I will know WHY I am upset; it just may not be until hours later.

Perhaps @mushr00m is right and the reason that I struggle so much with discussing my feelings is my strong Fe, because I rarely have that problem with other people; I can almost always tell what someone else is feeling.


----------



## Entropic

TreasureTower said:


> I do experience a lot of emotions; I don't always know what I'm feeling at the time and when I do; I often have trouble identifying it. I am a very emotional person; I scored limbic on the SLOAN - Big 5.
> 
> When I experience an emotion I do exactly what you described in your post above. I can't think - let alone talk about my feelings without intellectualizing them. I always subject any moods I have to rigorous analysis. I want to know why I feel a certain way. What is the origin of said feelings. Is the feeling rational or not. Do I have a logical basis for acting on it? If I feel sad, I may attribute it to being tired. If I am angry, I may attribute it to forgetting to take my B-complex or I might decide that they are valid and I should seriously consider investigating them furthers. Like you said in your quote; when I get them; they can be overwhelmingly intense.
> 
> *I think the issue for me is not so much that I don't feel anything; it's more that I often fear that my ego can't handle whatever it is that I'm feeling; so if the feeling is intense and scary enough; my default IMO is to immediately detach from it; so it can't overwhelm me.*


This honestly sounds like 9, not 5.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Ooh thanks for sharing!
> 
> I will add that what you shared isn't contrary to 7, regardless of my own typing. 7s can be diva-ish performers extraordinaire, identify with their brutality and be very in control of their "mask" -- and aware that it's a tool. *3s are less aware of this because they identify very closely with their image and role to the point where it always becomes them. *
> 
> *That kind of open acceptance and nonchalant awareness of this game..is not contrary to 7.* If I were to analyze that paragraph on someone else's thread, I would say 3 or 7. That and 7s are narcissistic at the level of fixation. All narcissists are aware of image and good at manipulating it if they choose.


Ohh I see. I wasn't aware of that. 




> Any other reason why you think 3? Also, you mentioned narcissistic attention whoring or something on your other thread, that is more 7 than 3. I forgot to tell you. 3s are very ..very calculated about the image they present to the world.


Hmmm I am not sure why, but you strive me as a 3 core. :laughing: I can see why you are considering 7, but if I had to type you I would go for 3. As for example, your relationship with failure and shame makes me think that your core type is placed in the image triad, instead of in the head center. 




> As for you, I think you're correctly typed.


Do you agree with the instinctual stacking by the way? You never commented on it :crying:


----------



## Psithurism

ephemereality said:


> This honestly sounds like 9, not 5.


Would the 5 indulge themselves in the strong emotion but try to ''intellectualize'' the experience as much as possible?


----------



## Entropic

Blissful Melancholy said:


> Would the 5 indulge themselves in the strong emotion but try to ''intellectualize'' the experience as much as possible?


I don't fear my emotions or that my ego cannot handle them. For me the anxiety occurs in situations where I cannot understand them, like someone thinks I should behave all cheery or whatever and I don't understand the reason why in this situation. I don't feel a need to necessarily intellectualize my own emotions much.

Detachment from emotion can also be more like objectifying the situation. It's just a dead body, it's just a human, etc.


----------



## Vaka

I'm game. I kinda wonder if I'm a 4w3 and all that makes me feel like a 4w5 is other fixes. The rest is sp/sx and INFP
I don't have the 3ish ambition, drive, and energy and I kinda wish I did have even a fraction of it, but it's the expression that makes me feel I could be 4w3


----------



## Animal

Halcyon said:


> ...


----------



## Donovan

Grau the Great said:


> What's the point of this post? No one was being aggressive or obnoxious about someone else's type, and all suggestions I've read so far have been well thought-out.
> 
> I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, but moralizing with no particular goal comes across as passive aggressive and really un-needed.
> 
> This thread's going great, it doesn't need to become a morality battle.


where's the "passive aggressive" moralizing? i took hal0hal0's post as "hey guys, here's a potential [and very realistic] roadblock to what we're all trying to do"--and it is a very good point to keep in mind. 

i mean, there are stages of my life that would correlate to different points on the enneagram (supposedly, we just have a single core type that stays with us for the remainder of our time here), and i can see the disconnect in my own posts vs the totality of how i am in every other aspect of actual life--but can y'all? i really doubt it. 

in fact, his post spurred a line of thought that i'll post here, in this thread, soon (as i would like some clarification, or at least something to rebound thought off of, in terms of 8's anger + control/denial [?] vs 6's control of anger through the super-ego). 


i honestly cannot see how his post was an attempt to out anyone. what made you see it as such?


edit: and i may as well tag @TreasureTower here... sorry, been frickin' busy as ever (and as usual). 

i really don't know what your type would be. i have a lot of reading to do, mainly to kind of crystallize what i'm thinking into something coherent (so it doesn't read as a lot of unconnected ideas with very large gaps--it's like i have the idea of what i'm trying to get at, but i don't have the facts to back it up yet in an objective way)...

i can see forms of attachment, and a want to at once attach, and to be on the upper hand of said attachment... while simultaneously yearning for the need to not have that security-seeking form of control over the connection, but to instead have it play out as something that happens effortlessly, unconsciously, and with true trust... 

or am i just projecting (lol ;-])? 

does that sound anywhere close to accurate? is this enneagram-related, or just too generically human to begin with?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Grau the Great
considering it more, I don't see core 1w2 for you. you seem more Id with a superego connection than the other way around. 1s have a certain, for lack of a better word, "civilized" quality to them (and 1w2 has it even more). your personality seems much more hardy, instinctual, uninhibited and raw. 
sort of like this:









PS: come to think of it, you have a LOT in common with this character (Hank from Breaking Bad) except more 2-ish. 
@Cosmic Orgasm: why do you see him as a head center type (7w8)?


----------



## Coburn

TreasureTower said:


> Either 7w8 or 8w7 for core: so, either 7w8 8w7 3w2 or 8w7 7w8 3w2 and ESTP - too easygoing and Se to be an SJ.
> 
> Marlowe, I have no idea what your E Type is but I think you seem to be ESTP over ESTJ (See *Cosmic Orgasm above). Your posts also strike me as being more Ti/Fe than Te/Fi; they lack the bluntness of a Te dom, IMO.




Are Te doms supposed to have blunt posts?

Also, the Ti-Fe claim is a new one, although I did originally type as an ESTP when I got into the MBTI. I don't think I've ever noticed either in any of my posts. Can you elaborate on what gave you that impression? 

And are you also suggesting a core of 7w8 or 8w7 for me? Or am I misreading your post?


----------



## Grau the Great

Donovan said:


> where's the "passive aggressive" moralizing? i took hal0hal0's post as "hey guys, here's a potential [and very realistic] roadblock to what we're all trying to do"--and it is a very good point to keep in mind.
> 
> i mean, there are stages of my life that would correlate to different points on the enneagram (supposedly, we just have a single core type that stays with us for the remainder of our time here), and i can see the disconnect in my own posts vs the totality of how i am in every other aspect of actual life--but can y'all? i really doubt it.
> 
> in fact, his post spurred a line of thought that i'll post here, in this thread, soon (as i would like some clarification, or at least something to rebound thought off of, in terms of 8's anger + control/denial [?] vs 6's control of anger through the super-ego).
> 
> i honestly cannot see how his post was an attempt to out anyone. what made you see it as such?


It was a post that didn't respond to anyone or make sense within the context of the thread. This is a thread to offer type suggestions to particular individuals asking for advice. My main point was that this has been a very interesting and successful thread, and I don't want to see it sidetracked. 

In any case, this issue was dealt with hours ago. There's no reason to restart the conversation now, when the thread has already moved on.

EDIT: whoops, didn't see your post @Swordsman of Mana xD



Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Grau the Great_
> considering it more, I don't see core 1w2 for you. you seem more Id with a superego connection than the other way around. 1s have a certain, for lack of a better word, "civilized" quality to them (and 1w2 has it even more). your personality seems much more hardy, instinctual, uninhibited and raw.


Hmmm... not sure about that actually. I think for Ones it's more about their internal principles than an appearance, though in many cases I could see 1s having a more controlled, restrained appearance than an id type. However, there's nothing inherent to the type that would prevent a 1 from having a less controlled exterior, so long as it didn't go against their internal values.

Lol @ the comparison to Hank from Breaking Bad though. You're not the first to mention that, actually. :tongue:


----------



## Donovan

Grau the Great said:


> It was a post that didn't respond to anyone or make sense within the context of the thread. This is a thread to offer type suggestions to particular individuals asking for advice. My main point was that this has been a very interesting and successful thread, and I don't want to see it sidetracked.
> 
> In any case, this issue was dealt with hours ago. There's no reason to restart the conversation now, when the thread has already moved on.


it's not out of context, actually. and it is an interesting thread, but i can't see how it sidetracks anything...

whether it was dealt with hours ago or not (which "dealing with" in this case seems to be you quoting another poster, and then nothing happening...?), i was just curious--but, feel free to ignore the question. it could possibly pertain to enneagram-related topics. who knows? .


----------



## Grau the Great

Donovan said:


> it's not out of context, actually. and it is an interesting thread, but i can't see how it sidetracks anything...
> 
> whether it was dealt with hours ago or not (which "dealing with" in this case seems to be you quoting another poster, and then nothing happening...?), i was just curious--but, feel free to ignore the question. it could possibly pertain to enneagram-related topics. who knows? .


Drop the cutesy attitude, it's annoying. It was an unrelated ramble that made no actual suggestions to anyone looking for help. And *yes*, it was very passive aggressive. If you're having trouble recognizing what passive aggression looks like and need an example, re-read your own posts.

Either way, this is the last comment on this for me. If you want to discuss it further, start another thread or PM.


----------



## Donovan

Grau the Great said:


> Drop the cutesy attitude, it's annoying. It was an unrelated ramble that made no actual suggestions to anyone looking for help. And *yes*, it was very passive aggressive. If you're having trouble recognizing what passive aggression looks like and need an example, re-read your own posts.
> 
> Either way, this is the last comment on this for me. If you want to discuss it further, start another thread or PM.


i think you misread, and read into things a bit too much. cutesy and passive aggressive--is everyone passive aggressive now? or just the people who happen to mention an opinion/idea that you don't agree with? 

how would you like me to act towards you? should i leave out the winky-faces? those are to lighten things, to show that "hey, i'd like to know something, and this little symbol is to let you know that i come in peace now that i've gotten your attention" (a lot is lost over text, and i try compensate for that)... obviously, his post did have a great deal of merit--it pertains to this entire thread, and to our very own conversation.

but if you'd like to speak about this elsewhere, or not at all--fine. it's not life-threatening that i know, or that i speak to you about this. but i don't understand your anger, or why you latched onto the idea that his post was in any way threatening/demeaning/etc., or why you become even angrier when someone disagrees with your assumption. 

... i'm very tempted to give you another winky-face, but that _would_ be passive aggressive (and completely playful on my part).


----------



## Sina

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Hmmm I am not sure why, but you strive me as a 3 core. :laughing: I can see why you are considering 7, but if I had to type you I would go for 3. As for example, your relationship with failure and shame makes me think that your core type is placed in the image triad, instead of in the head center.


I strike myself as a possible core 3, as well. And, until recently, I did see myself as nothing but core 3 until certain points were brought to my attention, and I took the time to do a closer more serious reading of type 7. 

The failure thing was what was a big part of why I had picked core 3. As I mention on my thread, I had failed many times and failed big a few times without that kind of reaction to it. I had even said that I had never cared about failure much until I failed in a way that ruined me. So, the failure was big enough to have destroyed nearly everything I had built and it co-incided with relapsed PTSD, a surgery, depression and deaths in my immediate family. So, the response co-incided with neuroatypical thinking and other pressing/tragic circumstances. That, and I typed at 3 soon after because of how I interpreted my relationship with failure since it's ONLY mentioned in relation to 3. Anyone of any type would have found it devastating. In fact, most people don't encounter that grand fuckin level of "failure" in their entire life. XD

Having studied more about the psychology of dealing with crisis and financial devastation and more, I have come to realize that I attributed more to 'dis to 9', which looks a lot like depression and so on, than may have been due. The timing made a big difference, and now that years pass since that loss, I am able to view things more objectively and have more perspective on it. The failure cost me my happiness, loss of options, my autonomy and plunged me into misery, deprivation and more that was exacerbated by existing circumstances.

So, now, I don't make that hasty failure- 3 connection in my own life. It was more complex, and I am glad it was brought to my attention by a few people close to me, and I figured as much out on my own much later. If I am a 3, it's not because of this reason.



> Do you agree with the instinctual stacking by the way? You never commented on it :crying:


What was it that you suggested? XD
I didn't see it.


_________________________
@_Swordsman of Mana_

Right now, I am not in the mood to explain the 7w8 beyond what I said on the thread and to him in private. I see it as a possibility as much as I see 1. I might get to your question later on, if I am up to it. 

And, it's not like 1s can't be obnoxious, hardy and inappropriate. The 1s I know say the most inappropriate shit. It's just not something crucial to their principles and integrity to be overly socially 'polite'. A few of them are Social 1s, in fact. Don't conflate goodness with politeness, which is just a social strategy. A 1 can meet their internal ideal of goodness without being socially 'appropriate'. It all depends on which values they prioritize.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> What was it that you suggested? XD
> I didn't see it.


I was talking about mine :ninja::laughing: I type as Sx/So 
I think you are a clear Sp/Sx.


----------



## Sina

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> I was talking about mine :ninja::laughing: I type as Sx/So
> I think you are a clear Sp/Sx.


I think Sx/So is right for you.


----------



## Entropic

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Grau the Great
> considering it more, I don't see core 1w2 for you. you seem more Id with a superego connection than the other way around. 1s have a certain, for lack of a better word, "civilized" quality to them (and 1w2 has it even more). your personality seems much more hardy, instinctual, uninhibited and raw.
> sort of like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: come to think of it, you have a LOT in common with this character (Hank from Breaking Bad) except more 2-ish.
> @Cosmic Orgasm: why do you see him as a head center type (7w8)?


Without knowing the character, regardless of enneatype (I would place him as a 6 maybe based on that picture), I would type the guy as SLE or possibly LSI through VI. That could perhaps be the similarity you're noticing.


----------



## The Messenger

It's surely going to lift some eyebrows. *not going to form an indepth analysis, just putting it out there for others to ponder on.*

@_Animal_ & @_ephemereality_: *6w7* & *6w5*. Both *1* fixed *So*/Sx. Image fix is last, but you both have a very bold 3 influence. Stronger @ Animal's case. While 4 is a possibility, due to the strong 3 influence I can't judge.

You two remind me of Spike & Chester, ha. ephemereality acting all badass while Animal is jumping around all bubbly coming to aid in need. You're totally of the '_lets form a clan & kill trolls in the woods_' style. @_Phoenix_Rebirth_ & @_FreeBeer_ will surely answer the summoning to form a Social 6s wolf pact. :3 (Phoenix, I think you're So-dom).

The forum persona of both of you is misleading. Not the dishonest kind. It's much bolder @ Animal's case, and actually ephemereality was called out numerous times before as a 6w5 (by actual 6s!), while Animal is perceived as a clear Id core. Who can blame them... that's really how she comes across and how she portraits herself. Reading the posts of both of you more thoroughly and following the patterns, your fixations become more visible to the keen eye. Just in this thread Animal revealed things about herself I didn't know of which further confirmed my perceptions -- behind that free-spirited & inhibited person lies a very private person holding really, really tight. And who said anyway that 6s can't be like that? That's one issue with these forums, that complete area in the spectrum is completely absent from each type. Crucify me if you want, but the 4 subforum besides a handful of members is actually the '4ish' kind of 6s absent from the 6's subforum.

There's an undeniable *Doubt vs. Over-confidence* juggling both of you are going through. You both are very quick to get into such threads, to open type-me threads or general 'this is my tritype' threads; ephemereality saying 'I'm bored' not for the first time, but in reality it's stemming out of doubt that leading to that position, but the problem is that when you ARE at that position, you hold unto your type so dearly, heavily questioning everyone's suggestions, and EVEN if you get plenty of good rationales by multiple people, you still leave the thread holding unto it tight, keeping writing in other threads as that type without giving it a proper time to investigate it further. It's like spitting in everyone's face, really. You're doubting yourself on one hand, but being over-confident about it anyway... that mechanism is truly something. That goes to both of you. Animal, you had like a gazillion members explaining indepth why they can't see you as a certain type (be it 5, 3, 8 or 4), and in most cases you act all cute & diplomatic saying you appreciate the input and you'll 'definitely' think about it, but several posts later you'll write that this very type you just said you'll ponder on IS your type, in whatever context. While the 'you don't know me good enough, you don't know what really lies within me, what I've been through' is nice and all, you should really give credit to one of the purposes of these forums which is for other people to serve as mirrors and direct you towards finding your real ego-fixations. I mean, why do you still open threads @ the 4 subforum wearing a 4 tag and not taking a time-out to reflect on others' suggestions in this thread? It baffles me.

Shortly about the So/Sx: In ephemereality's case it's easier -- seek out your latest type-me thread about the instincts. The answers there just couldn't be more indicative of an So-dom & Sp-last, IMO. Consult _objective_ others about your answers there, you'll be surprised. Animal is being perceived as a clear-cut Sx-dom, but I call So for her aswell. People don't realize just how 'intense' or any Sx-ish buzzwords an So/Sx 6 can be. Even much more than an actual Sx6 or any other Sexual type for that matter. The Social instinct makes the scattered-ness of the 6 much more flowing & restless. Certain people of this subtype are the type of people you think never go to sleep, they're always ON, and can rock it the hardest of all types in the system. It's so easy to type them as 'Sx-dom' because they're oh so intense and use animalistic words to describe themselves. Jawz if anyone remembers him was another 6w7 So/Sx perceived as an Sx-dom. Unsurprisingly, he also left here typing as an Sx 458.

Take it for what it's worth. :3


----------



## Sina

@_Arienette_

Jawz was definitely an so/sx 6w7-3w2-1w9. At most, he was 4w3 fixed. He was the furthest thing from SX 458.


----------



## LibertyPrime

@Arienette

o.o idk about @Animal, but @ephemereality imo is a 5 due to the attachment I observed to being competent. As far as I know type 6 does not display the kind of certainty he tends to in his posts and the need to be competent can be seen in every post he makes. I have debated long enough and frequently enough with him to know with relative certainty that he is a type 5 Te user. 

I would not type ephemereality as a 6, its not his core motivation.

._. I don't know about social 6, its supposed to be prussian and kind of aristocratic rule abiding...:\ thou I personally am rebellious, antiauthoritarian and don't exactly like groups or group dinamics, I don't trust that stuff and am weary of it. the reason I type a SO first is beause I used to have social phobia, so I assume my attention goes there first...however I'm incompetent at even basic social stuff mostly because social phobia stopped me from developing proper social skills...thus I may fail in social situations and not be aware of it immediately. Only later will I catch on or worse someone will point it out to me.

.....so yeah I'm not a good source on being social first. I got over social phobia, nowadays I have no problems interacting apart from simply sucking at it. I often find social stuff either annoying, illogical or plain mindbogglingly complicated and incomprehensible >.<...


----------



## Chesire Tower

ephemereality said:


> This honestly sounds like 9, not 5.


Well, I honestly think that 9 makes far more sense to me than 5 but there is too much of the 9 description that doesn't fit me at all. If you knew me IRL; I doubt _anyone_ who did; would ever mistake me for a 9.

The three types I relate to the most strongly and do fit based on what I've read are: 5w4, 4w5 and 6w7 - in that order. I also relate to 2 a bit as well - except for the other orientation; same goes for 9. So, that's one of the reasons I think that there's an outside chance I could be a 7. I also relate to the frustration and power seeking triads more than the acceptance ones. I also relate to the head and heart centres more than the gut. I don't relate to my body - which is not consistent with being a gut centre type but I do think that I have a 9 gut fix.

I do think that I am typed correctly but I could also be a 4w5 or possibly but less likely - a 7w6. I definitely don't relate to 6 and the reasons that I don't fit so many of the 6 stereotypes is because well, I am obviously NOT a 6.

I do want to thank the people who did type me as a 6 because I think that I've can now correctly identify my late mother as a very uhealthy 6w7 and a certain friend that I've been having difficulty with, as an unhealthy 6w5.

I found this really helpful web site:

Triad Definitions

The 18 Triads

High Side for the 5 Identity

Moving Toward Wholeness
##*Value and seek wisdom
##Attract, synthesize, and integrate systems of information
##Have a keen sense of fairness; non-judgmental
##A seeker of truth
##A perceptive original thinker who contributes their knowledge 

Low Side for the 5 Identity

Caught in Compulsion
##Overly intellectual and fear making decisions
##Want to know everything before making decisions
*##May be unwilling to disclose own views
##*Remain an observer rather than participator in life
##Hesitates being too involved in a group *



High Side for the 4 Identity

Moving Toward Wholeness
##*Values originality and making things special
##Make the ordinary into the extraordinary
##Attuned to emotions of a person or group
##Sense the dream and tragedy of life
##Have good taste with an innate sense for quality 

Low Side for the 4 Identity

Caught in Compulsion
##Feel misunderstood or overwhelmed by emotions*
##If I can’t be unique then I am nobody
##*Overwhelmed by feelings so back off to sort out
##May use drama to dispel boredom
##May consider others to be tacky*


High Side for the 7 Identity

Moving Toward Wholeness
##*Purpose in life is to enjoy wholeness
*##Long range planning comes naturally
##*Intuitive visions generate possibilities*
##Aware of the immediacy of situations(s)
##*Can find the good in anything 

Low Side for the 7 Identity

Caught in Compulsion
##Value beauty and aesthetic appearances
##Aware of dynamics of the group(s)
##Shows responsive emotions and feelings
##Has a sense of quality and good taste
##Makes ordinary into extraordinary 
* 

Based on the theory of the web site; 4w5 may be a better fit than 5w4.


----------



## Entropic

TreasureTower said:


> Well, I honestly think that 9 makes far more sense to me than 5 but there is too much of the 9 description that doesn't fit me at all. If you knew me IRL; I doubt _anyone_ who did; would ever mistake me for a 9.
> 
> The three types I relate to the most strongly and do fit based on what I've read are: 5w4, 4w5 and 6w7 - in that order. I also relate to 2 a bit as well - except for the other orientation; same goes for 9. So, that's one of the reasons I think that there's an outside chance I could be a 7. I also relate to the frustration and power seeking triads more than the acceptance ones. I also relate to the head and heart centres more than the gut. I don't relate to my body - which is not consistent with being a gut centre type but I do think that I have a 9 gut fix.
> 
> I do think that I am typed correctly but I could also be a 4w5 or possibly but less likely - a 7w6. I definitely don't relate to 6 and the reasons that I don't fit so many of the 6 stereotypes is because well, I am obviously NOT a 6.
> 
> I do want to thank the people who did type me as a 6 because I think that I've can now correctly identify my late mother as a very uhealthy 6w7 and a certain friend that I've been having difficulty with, as an unhealthy 6w5.
> 
> I found this really helpful web site:
> 
> Triad Definitions
> 
> The 18 Triads
> 
> High Side for the 5 Identity
> 
> Moving Toward Wholeness
> ##*Value and seek wisdom
> ##Attract, synthesize, and integrate systems of information
> ##Have a keen sense of fairness; non-judgmental
> ##A seeker of truth
> ##A perceptive original thinker who contributes their knowledge
> 
> Low Side for the 5 Identity
> 
> Caught in Compulsion
> ##Overly intellectual and fear making decisions
> ##Want to know everything before making decisions
> *##May be unwilling to disclose own views
> ##*Remain an observer rather than participator in life
> ##Hesitates being too involved in a group *
> 
> 
> 
> High Side for the 4 Identity
> 
> Moving Toward Wholeness
> ##*Values originality and making things special
> ##Make the ordinary into the extraordinary
> ##Attuned to emotions of a person or group
> ##Sense the dream and tragedy of life
> ##Have good taste with an innate sense for quality
> 
> Low Side for the 4 Identity
> 
> Caught in Compulsion
> ##Feel misunderstood or overwhelmed by emotions*
> ##If I can’t be unique then I am nobody
> ##*Overwhelmed by feelings so back off to sort out
> ##May use drama to dispel boredom
> ##May consider others to be tacky*
> 
> 
> High Side for the 7 Identity
> 
> Moving Toward Wholeness
> ##*Purpose in life is to enjoy wholeness
> *##Long range planning comes naturally
> ##*Intuitive visions generate possibilities*
> ##Aware of the immediacy of situations(s)
> ##*Can find the good in anything
> 
> Low Side for the 7 Identity
> 
> Caught in Compulsion
> ##Value beauty and aesthetic appearances
> ##Aware of dynamics of the group(s)
> ##Shows responsive emotions and feelings
> ##Has a sense of quality and good taste
> ##Makes ordinary into extraordinary
> *
> 
> Based on the theory of the web site; 4w5 may be a better fit than 5w4.


Instead of studying descriptions, why not study the *motivations*? Descriptions can only give certain blueprints about the type, but it cannot describe the type in an actual way. It will cherrypick and pigeonhole and be based on traits as opposed to actually underlying factors that drive and motivate people into being who they are. There's nothing in these descriptions that truly touch on this. There's nothing about avarice in here, nothing about envy, nothing about gluttony. These are the concepts you need to work with, not descriptions.

As a 5w4, almost everything you've written about 5 thus far that I've read has never rang particularly true for me. I don't notice the issue of the existential fear in you. Your drive and need to do pertains to *identity*, but not knowledge and understanding in a much deeper universal sense. If you truly were a 5, your opinions of yourself and what reality is wouldn't shift so much as it does. A 5 trusts only one thing and it is what he himself knows about the world. This is why Ichazo notes that the passion of 5 is stinginess. When it comes to trusting what they know, type 5s can be really obstinate. You do the very opposite - you never seem to be able to trust but always end up doubting. If I were to give an honest opinion of your type, I'd either put you as 396 or 936 as a tritype. 

A lot of 9s mistype as 5 because they relate to the description but they fail to understand the core issues of the type and because they are 9s, they latch onto the superficial aspects of the type because they rather be that than who they are, as is the issue with the type 9 at unhealthy and average ranges. They attach themselves to things that they aren't, because they lack the clarity to see who they actually are. This lack of clarity is what all attachment types have in common in some degree or another. 3s deceive themselves, 6s constantly doubt themselves, 9s ignore themselves. If there's something I think you have expressed in all of your type me threads and threads that have nothing to do with your type but somehow end up being about your type anyway, it's this very behavior. 

A 5 doesn't doubt. They trust their knowledge and if they do not know, they will seek understanding so they can know. If a 5 does not understand, he will create his own knowledge so he will understand. Type 5 builds ivory towers of knowledge and they trust their knowledge above all others. They trust their understanding and interpretation of the world above all others. And this is regardless of whether it is the correct one or not. The type 5 seeks only to deepen that which he knows and while type 5 values truth, it is only in the sense of deepening knowledge and understanding as opposed to whether something is truly and actually true like 6s do. 

Last but not least - stereotypes are that. If you actually understood the enneagram theory you'd realize that you cannot type based on stereotypes or how people relate to stereotypes or appear stereotypical. That's how mistypes occur. I don't feel I fit the stereotype descriptions of 5 well at all and one of the reasons why is because I think I'm quite healthy for a 5, and I have a strong 8 fix to compensate. It gives me a gut energy that the stereotypes don't account for. People are unique. Realize this. We cannot type based on descriptions. That's why we have people like Naranjo, Maitri and Almaas write in great length not about stereotype descriptions, but about *motivations*.

You need to learn let go who you think you are and start exploring who you actually are. Start with yourself - not descriptions.


----------



## Animal

Arienette said:


> I mean, why do you still open threads @ the 4 subforum wearing a 4 tag and not taking a time-out to reflect on others' suggestions in this thread? It baffles me.


Are you serious?

Anyone can open a thread anywhere they want on the forum. You have no idea what I have or haven't reflected on. I don't mind what you say in this thread about my type, this is the place for perceptions, but suggesting it's ridiculous for someone to post a thread without 'reflecting on others' suggestions' when I've been studying enneagram for years and can think for myself says more about you than it does about me. I am under no obligation to change my type because of suggestions. Even if I open myself up for comments, it's nobody's business but mine, how I type outside of this thread.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Donovan said:


> where's the "passive aggressive" moralizing? i took hal0hal0's post as "hey guys, here's a potential [and very realistic] roadblock to what we're all trying to do"--and it is a very good point to keep in mind.
> 
> i mean, there are stages of my life that would correlate to different points on the enneagram (supposedly, we just have a single core type that stays with us for the remainder of our time here), and i can see the disconnect in my own posts vs the totality of how i am in every other aspect of actual life--but can y'all? i really doubt it.
> 
> in fact, his post spurred a line of thought that i'll post here, in this thread, soon (as i would like some clarification, or at least something to rebound thought off of, in terms of 8's anger + control/denial [?] vs 6's control of anger through the super-ego).
> 
> 
> i honestly cannot see how his post was an attempt to out anyone. what made you see it as such?


I agree with you; I see @hal0hal0's post as a gentle reminder to people that being able to clearly type anyone based solely on forum posts while may well be helpful; is definitely somewhat limited. I also think that anyone who bothers to go back and read @Phoenix Rebirth's excellent OP, should agree with this.




Donovan said:


> edit: and i may as well tag @TreasureTower here... sorry, been frickin' busy as ever (and as usual).
> 
> i really don't know what your type would be. i have a lot of reading to do, mainly to kind of crystallize what i'm thinking into something coherent (so it doesn't read as a lot of unconnected ideas with very large gaps--it's like i have the idea of what i'm trying to get at, but i don't have the facts to back it up yet in an objective way)...
> 
> *i can see forms of attachment, and a want to at once attach, and to be on the upper hand of said attachment... while simultaneously yearning for the need to not have that security-seeking form of control over the connection, but to instead have it play out as something that happens effortlessly, unconsciously, and with true trust... *
> 
> or am i just projecting (lol ;-])?
> 
> does that sound anywhere close to accurate? is this enneagram-related, or just too generically human to begin with?


Well, it's partially true but what I'm not sure of, is even if I _want_ to attach in the first place. Sometimes I view my sense of self as so fragile; I think that an intense connection with another person - no matter how badly I may want it - would deplete the limited sense of self that I perceive that I already have of myself. So, I alternate to very much wanting that and fearing it because until I develop myself more as a competent, self-sufficient individual in the real world; I will always feel threatened by the possibility of be overwhelmed, swallowed up and devoured by that connection and this is true; whether that connection is positive or negative but obviously, especially negative.

I had an extremely overbearing and controlling mother and she failed to adequately mirror me but instead viewed me as existing as nothing more than an extension of herself. In this vein, she did everything she could to turn me into an idealized version of herself. She told me on more than one occasion that love had to be earned, I was a failure, lacked judgement and couldn't do anything right and my favourite: she wanted me to be "perfect". Yes, she actually said those exact words to me. She seemed to one hand to see me as highly intelligent and valued my opinions and OTOH, viewed me as hopelessly incompetent and in terms of accomplishing anything; so, when it comes to actually "doing" anything; I never feel that I have the adequate skills necessary to perform whatever it is that I either need or want to do - even despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I don't see it as a complete coincidence that you and @Animal are the people on this board; who have the greatest insight into my character. This is probably because I let the two of you in to a much deeper realm of my private world than, most people I have encountered on PerC. That is most likely why I keep getting not only mistyped but misunderstood as well. It is basically my fault. I can't cry, "woe is me, people keep misunderstanding me"; when I am purposely enigmatic in my expressions. It isn't out of any intent to deceive, however; it more my futile attempt to grasp at the meager aspects of my identity that I've been able to hold on to - despite others trying to wrest them away from me. My personal information and my innermost thoughts and feelings, are all I've really ever had in my life and I am just not willing to give them up to anyone else; because they are they only things that truly belong to mean and if I surrender those things; then I will be left with nothing.


----------



## Entropic

Arienette said:


> It's surely going to lift some eyebrows. *not going to form an indepth analysis, just putting it out there for others to ponder on.*
> 
> @_Animal_ & @_ephemereality_: *6w7* & *6w5*. Both *1* fixed *So*/Sx. Image fix is last, but you both have a very bold 3 influence. Stronger @ Animal's case. While 4 is a possibility, due to the strong 3 influence I can't judge.
> 
> You two remind me of Spike & Chester, ha. ephemereality acting all badass while Animal is jumping around all bubbly coming to aid in need. You're totally of the '_lets form a clan & kill trolls in the woods_' style. @_Phoenix_Rebirth_ & @_FreeBeer_ will surely answer the summoning to form a Social 6s wolf pact. :3 (Phoenix, I think you're So-dom).
> 
> The forum persona of both of you is misleading. Not the dishonest kind. It's much bolder @ Animal's case, and actually ephemereality was called out numerous times before as a 6w5 (by actual 6s!), while Animal is perceived as a clear Id core. Who can blame them... that's really how she comes across and how she portraits herself. Reading the posts of both of you more thoroughly and following the patterns, your fixations become more visible to the keen eye. Just in this thread Animal revealed things about herself I didn't know of which further confirmed my perceptions -- behind that free-spirited & inhibited person lies a very private person holding really, really tight. And who said anyway that 6s can't be like that? That's one issue with these forums, that complete area in the spectrum is completely absent from each type. Crucify me if you want, but the 4 subforum besides a handful of members is actually the '4ish' kind of 6s absent from the 6's subforum.
> 
> There's an undeniable *Doubt vs. Over-confidence* juggling both of you are going through. You both are very quick to get into such threads, to open type-me threads or general 'this is my tritype' threads; ephemereality saying 'I'm bored' not for the first time, but in reality it's stemming out of doubt that leading to that position, but the problem is that when you ARE at that position, you hold unto your type so dearly, heavily questioning everyone's suggestions, and EVEN if you get plenty of good rationales by multiple people, you still leave the thread holding unto it tight, keeping writing in other threads as that type without giving it a proper time to investigate it further. It's like spitting in everyone's face, really. You're doubting yourself on one hand, but being over-confident about it anyway... that mechanism is truly something. That goes to both of you. Animal, you had like a gazillion members explaining indepth why they can't see you as a certain type (be it 5, 3, 8 or 4), and in most cases you act all cute & diplomatic saying you appreciate the input and you'll 'definitely' think about it, but several posts later you'll write that this very type you just said you'll ponder on IS your type, in whatever context. While the 'you don't know me good enough, you don't know what really lies within me, what I've been through' is nice and all, you should really give credit to one of the purposes of these forums which is for other people to serve as mirrors and direct you towards finding your real ego-fixations. I mean, why do you still open threads @ the 4 subforum wearing a 4 tag and not taking a time-out to reflect on others' suggestions in this thread? It baffles me.
> 
> Shortly about the So/Sx: In ephemereality's case it's easier -- seek out your latest type-me thread about the instincts. The answers there just couldn't be more indicative of an So-dom & Sp-last, IMO. Consult _objective_ others about your answers there, you'll be surprised. Animal is being perceived as a clear-cut Sx-dom, but I call So for her aswell. People don't realize just how 'intense' or any Sx-ish buzzwords an So/Sx 6 can be. Even much more than an actual Sx6 or any other Sexual type for that matter. The Social instinct makes the scattered-ness of the 6 much more flowing & restless. Certain people of this subtype are the type of people you think never go to sleep, they're always ON, and can rock it the hardest of all types in the system. It's so easy to type them as 'Sx-dom' because they're oh so intense and use animalistic words to describe themselves. Jawz if anyone remembers him was another 6w7 So/Sx perceived as an Sx-dom. Unsurprisingly, he also left here typing as an Sx 458.
> 
> Take it for what it's worth. :3


That was a fun read, but with that said, you seem to sunderstand both me and @Animal poorly and read into things that aren't quite there. I often don't open type me threads because I seek input on my type because I don't need much external input. I can make sense of the theory and myself on my own without external help. The only times I've sought help was when I understood the theory poorly. So I do it precisely because what it says - I'm bored. Filling out information is a way to spend time, and bantering with people intellectually is a sport. There have only been a few times I have genuinely looked for honest type input on this forum. This thread does for example not classify as one. I'm interested in seeing how far people are willing to justify their perception of me, because I do like to hear what people have to say about me. It's a form of entertainment. You should learn to take people for their word. 

I see what you mean that it seems like Animal often ignores people's input, but it's because she's capable of making up her own decisions of who she is. Taking someone's input seriously doesn't mean you have to agree with it or suddenly change your type or your perception of yourself. 

If you have actually read my honest type me threads that is, those that were meant for that purpose of seeking help as opposed to just trolling around, you'd know that I do take people's suggestions seriously given that they seem rational and thought-out, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with how it describes me. Which applies to everyone in on this forum. It's not a denial, it's just that sometimes people are actually wrong and you are right.


----------



## Chesire Tower

ephemereality said:


> Instead of studying descriptions, why not study the *motivations*? Descriptions can only give certain blueprints about the type, but it cannot describe the type in an actual way. It will cherrypick and pigeonhole and be based on traits as opposed to actually underlying factors that drive and motivate people into being who they are. There's nothing in these descriptions that truly touch on this. There's nothing about avarice in here, nothing about envy, nothing about gluttony. These are the concepts you need to work with, not descriptions.
> 
> As a 5w4, almost everything you've written about 5 thus far that I've read has never rang particularly true for me. I don't notice the issue of the existential fear in you. Your drive and need to do pertains to *identity*, but not knowledge and understanding in a much deeper universal sense. If you truly were a 5, your opinions of yourself and what reality is wouldn't shift so much as it does. A 5 trusts only one thing and it is what he himself knows about the world. This is why Ichazo notes that the passion of 5 is stinginess. When it comes to trusting what they know, type 5s can be really obstinate. You do the very opposite - you never seem to be able to trust but always end up doubting. If I were to give an honest opinion of your type, I'd either put you as 396 or 936 as a tritype.
> 
> A lot of 9s mistype as 5 because they relate to the description but they fail to understand the core issues of the type and because they are 9s, they latch onto the superficial aspects of the type because they rather be that than who they are, as is the issue with the type 9 at unhealthy and average ranges. They attach themselves to things that they aren't, because they lack the clarity to see who they actually are. This lack of clarity is what all attachment types have in common in some degree or another. 3s deceive themselves, 6s constantly doubt themselves, 9s ignore themselves. If there's something I think you have expressed in all of your type me threads and threads that have nothing to do with your type but somehow end up being about your type anyway, it's this very behavior.
> 
> *A 5 do not know, they will seek understanding so they can know. If a 5 does not understand, he will create his own knowledge so he will understand. Type 5 builds ivory towers of knowledge and they trust their knowledge above all others. They trust their understanding and interpretation of the world above all others. And this is regardless of whether it is the correct one or not. The type 5 seeks only to deepen that which he knows and while type 5 values truth, it is only in the sense of deepening knowledge and understanding as opposed to whether something is truly and actually true like 6s do. doesn't doubt. They trust their knowledge and if they *
> 
> Last but not least - stereotypes are that. If you actually understood the enneagram theory you'd realize that you cannot type based on stereotypes or how people relate to stereotypes or appear stereotypical. That's how mistypes occur. I don't feel I fit the stereotype descriptions of 5 well at all and one of the reasons why is because I think I'm quite healthy for a 5, and I have a strong 8 fix to compensate. It gives me a gut energy that the stereotypes don't account for. People are unique. Realize this. We cannot type based on descriptions. That's why we have people like Naranjo, Maitri and Almaas write in great length not about stereotype descriptions, but about *motivations*.
> 
> You need to learn let go who you think you are and start exploring who you actually are. Start with yourself - not descriptions.


The problem is you constantly misinterpret everything I say because I do relate to what you said that I have bolded. There is no way in hell that I am a 3-6- 9 anything. There isn't even a remote possibility that I have 3 anywhere in my tritype. If there is one type that I don't relate to at all; it would be 3; that's why I said that 3, 8, 1 are totally "out there" typing suggestions for me and I have investigated ALL of the definitions, gone through every aspect of them and the three types that I related most closely to, based on core fears, vices, etc. are 5,4,7 - in that order and there is no way in hell that I'm NOT one of those three. FWIW, I think that 2 even fits me better than 9 in some ways except that I am not other orientated enough to be either a 2 or a 9. While, there is an outside chance that 6 could be my head fix wing; that's the strongest influence that it could possibly have on my type but since I relate to 4, way more than 6; that could only happen if I could be convinced that I could be a type 7 - since I obviously relate to 6 way more than 8. If I am a 5, it is 5w4; if I am a 4, it is 4w5; so, only if I am a 7; could it be 7w6. As for the 9; I am pretty sure that it is my gut fix; as for 3, I am _nothing_ like a 3. If I were a 3; my life would be the complete _opposite_ of what it is now.

I know that you are never going to get what I am saying; like you mistype me on JCF as well. I quoted your post because I totally related to what you said in it. You refuse to believe me for some reason and that is of course, your right. I've just accepted that we are never going to agree on this.


----------



## Entropic

TreasureTower said:


> The problem is you constantly misinterpret everything I say because I do relate to what you said that I have bolded. There is no way in hell that I am a 3-6- 9 anything. There isn't even a remote possibility that I have 3 anywhere in my tritype. If there is one type that I don't relate to at all; it would be 3; that's why I said that 3, 8, 1 are totally "out there" typing suggestions for me and I have investigated ALL of the definitions, gone through every aspect of them and the three types that I related most closely to, based on core fears, vices, etc. are 5,4,7 - in that order and there is no way in hell that I'm NOT one of those three. FWIW, I think that 2 even fits me better than 9 in some ways except that I am not other orientated enough to be either a 2 or a 9. While, there is an outside chance that 6 could be my head fix wing; that's the strongest influence that it could possibly have on my type but since I relate to 4, way more than 6; that could only happen if I could be convinced that I could be a type 7 - since I obviously relate to 6 way more than 8. If I am a 5, it is 5w4; if I am a 4, it is 4w5; so, only if I am a 7; could it be 7w6. As for the 9; I am pretty sure that it is my gut fix; as for 3, I am _nothing_ like a 3. If I were a 3; my life would be the complete _opposite_ of what it is now.
> 
> I know that you are never going to get what I am saying; like you mistype me on JCF as well. I quoted your post because I totally related to what you said in it. You refuse to believe me for some reason and that is of course, your right. I've just accepted that we are never going to agree on this.


Do you know what the ironic thing is? I often feel you quote me because you exactly don't understand what I am trying to express and you do it because you misunderstand and you do it because you don't actually *get it*. You may relate, but do you *get it*? Like really, genuinely, deeply *get it*? Because I often get the feeling you don't but you think you do. You quoted me just now and I described part of the obstinate behavior @FreeBeer pointed out previously as well. Where have you ever been certain of your position of anything type aside when you decided what type you are? But when it comes to theory and understanding, you never seem certain. You could be this, you could be that, oh, wait, that too? Type 5s don't suffer the kind of confusion you're expressing because they are certain of themselves and their knowledge. Read FreeBeer's post about his justification why I'm a 5. You didn't mention anything about relating to that now. 


Also, the more private stuff you wrote in a previous post struck me as extremely 9-ish, especially this part:



> Well, it's partially true but what I'm not sure of, is even if I want to attach in the first place. Sometimes I view my sense of self as so fragile; I think that an intense connection with another person - no matter how badly I may want it - would deplete the limited sense of self that I perceive that I already have of myself. So, I alternate to very much wanting that and fearing it because until I develop myself more as a competent, self-sufficient individual in the real world; I will always feel threatened by the possibility of be overwhelmed, swallowed up and devoured by that connection and this is true; whether that connection is positive or negative but obviously, especially negative.


Do you see what you are saying here yourself? Like really seeing it? I can see why you type as 5 based on this, but this isn't avarice. This is type 9 logic, the fear of losing one's identity and this need to merge. That's sx 9 in a nutshell essentially. A type 5 doesn't suffer from this issue because for them it's the opposite. The only thing they think they do have is themselves. There's no fear of losing oneself and that's because it's a detachment as opposed to attachment type. Instead the problem for type 5 as outlined by Maitri is that the type 5 seeks total acceptance without judgement. 

Overall, you expressed very strong attachment sentiments in that entire post. I'm not trying to misrepresent or misunderstand you or whatever. It's just that the information I read from you and your posts differs greatly from the information you yourself read from it. That's another reason why I doubt you're an Ni type but that's an aside.


----------



## Chesire Tower

ephemereality said:


> Do you know what the ironic thing is? I often feel you quote me because you exactly don't understand what I am trying to express and you do it because you misunderstand and you do it because you don't actually *get it*. You may relate, but do you *get it*? Like really, genuinely, deeply *get it*? Because I often get the feeling you don't but you think you do. You quoted me just now and I described part of the obstinate behavior @FreeBeer pointed out previously as well. Where have you ever been certain of your position of anything type aside when you decided what type you are? But when it comes to theory and understanding, you never seem certain. You could be this, you could be that, oh, wait, that too? Type 5s don't suffer the kind of confusion you're expressing because they are certain of themselves and their knowledge. Read FreeBeer's post about his justification why I'm a 5. You didn't mention anything about relating to that now.
> 
> 
> Also, the more private stuff you wrote in a previous post struck me as extremely 9-ish, especially this part:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see what you are saying here yourself? Like really seeing it? I can see why you type as 5 based on this, but this isn't avarice. This is type 9 logic, the fear of losing one's identity and this need to merge. That's sx 9 in a nutshell essentially. A type 5 doesn't suffer from this issue because for them it's the opposite. *The only thing they think they do have is themselves. There's no fear of losing oneself and that's because it's a detachment as opposed to attachment type. Instead the problem for type 5 as outlined by Maitri is that the type 5 seeks total acceptance without judgement.
> *
> Overall, you expressed very strong attachment sentiments in that entire post. I'm not trying to misrepresent or misunderstand you or whatever. It's just that the information I read from you and your posts differs greatly from the information you yourself read from it. That's another reason why I doubt you're an Ni type but that's an aside.


You always cherrypick my words to mean something they don't. I again, do relate to what I've bolded. I'm not talking about my identity; I am talking about my sense of self - not my ego-identified perception of it. I have read Maitri and I relate to 5,4 and 7; based on her description. I don't relate to anything she says about 9,6 or 3; for that matter; I actually related a little to 1, as well.

Again, we will just have to agree to disagree and you also doubt that Animal's an N, remember?; so bringing in JCF just proves to me that your knowledge of enneagram typing - WHEN IT COMES TO OTHERS - is a joke.

Happy Holidays or what's left of them.

=)


----------



## Coburn

@Cosmic Orgasm

With regards to your long post about @Animal (and ephemerality), could it not be argued that that push an pull dynamic with other opinions and personal assuredness in type me threads is a manifestation of three-ness rather than six-ness?


----------



## mushr00m

@Treasure Tower - If you really want to discover your enneatype, buy some good enneagram books. But plz stop this thing your doing, it's annoying and doesn't appear like you actually want advice at all, you're just wasting people's time trying to help you and only want them to confirm everything you say which means you arn't here for help, I tried to help you and offer suggestions which you promptly slammed down. And then more snide retorts afterwards and supporting others rude remarks on those trying to help. Why did anyone deserve that for? Anyway, im finished. :angry:


----------



## Sina

A few things:

The post really didn't lift my eyebrow, because I have come across both of these typings for @_Animal_ and @_ephemereality_. My post is not so much about the typing itself but some of the arguments you've put forth, even though 6w5 is not an outrageous typing for Ephem. If I were invested enough, I'd have made a case for it myself. It would have required more effort, since I am quite thorough and don't like spewing stereotypical bullshit when I type people, than I care to exert.

I also know Animal personally, and when I talk about her typing in a different post, I will talk about 6w7, 7w6 and 4w3. I still don't think 7w6 is "impossible" for her by any means, though after extensive talks with her, I see why she types at 4 and has well-considered reasons, which I can respect even if I am very open to pondering SX 7w6 for her and always have been. 

So, rest assured, this isn't some warped dislike or drama over 6 typings, as I suggest them myself when appropriate and sound in my perspective. On that front, the coast is clear. 




Arienette said:


> @_Phoenix_Rebirth_ & @_FreeBeer_ will surely answer the summoning to form a Social 6s wolf pact. :3 (Phoenix, I think you're So-dom).


:laughing:

Mmmmm... a 6y wolf pack! I can picture those two as werewolves howling into the night LOFL.



> Crucify me if you want, but the 4 subforum besides a handful of members is actually the '4ish' kind of 6s absent from the 6's subforum.


It's an unpopular opinion, but I completely agree with this. 




> There's an undeniable *Doubt vs. Over-confidence* juggling both of you are going through. You both are very quick to get into such threads, to open type-me threads or general 'this is my tritype' threads


The conflict in 6s is doubt vs. over-certainty or holding on adamantly against all reason, which is something I've noticed myself. Jawz's example was great. There's another member whose typing escapades you and I participated up to a point, who had a very clear pattern of asking for feedback from 10 different place, expecting a confirmation bias approach, barring which she'd lose it (privately), while continuing to diplomatically kiss ass on her thread while pissing on people behind their backs. She also had a very clear pattern of first seeking out authority and then counter-phobically reacting to it by feeling "cornered" or "attacked" or "put in a box" or the whole .."you don't know me as well as I know myself " trite ass line people spout around these parts, not always but often 6s offended by opinions contrary to expecting typing. This is not a valid parallel for reasons you will read below. 

Furthermore, this member was very good at portraying herself as the victim of situations that went downhill thanks to her own vacillating, contradictory, needlessly defensive, dishonest and passive aggressive attitude on typing threads. This too was a point of contrast. 

You are inaccurately conflating some of this with how Animal has gone about her typing. And, I would have made this point even if the post were directed to another user by all means. 

I am perfectly fine with you perceiving her as a 6w7 (it is not an outlandish typing by any means) as I said. But, your tone makes it obvious that you're very passive aggressively getting some shit off your chest and not exactly being objective typing aside. 

There's also an approach you've taken here that's one of my pet peeves when it comes to typing others, and it's called the - I step on a thread and expect the OP to eventually accept my typing or it's like they're pissing on me or spitting in my face or what have you -. How many typing threads someone creates is not conclusively indicative of their typing, and even if a person is the most pretentious mistype around (ahem a certain someone who changed his typing every now and then, dressed up as said type every few weeks and kicked up shitty ol' drama wherever he went would be a good example), it is no skin off a typer's back. If they are the fuckin laughing stock, good for them. Hell, I have mocked the living daylights out of such typees in the past. 

With that said, it is presumptuous to assume a low or non-existent level of self-reflection on another's end simply because they disagree with how they're typed. I have disagreed with many of @_Animal_'s typings starting with 3, and I didn't buy the 8 typing for a fuckin millisecond and would never have, and I voiced my objections in private and even in public, when I felt she was ready, and I did so in a manner I considered respectful. Even though I disagreed with her typings, I know she did a tremendous amount of self-work and reflection to arrive on the typing she did. And, disagreements aside, I respect that about a person because in the year or so that I was active in typing, I came across people who were fuckin dumb as rocks and had neither the acumen nor the maturity to even deal with Enneagram material. 

I also disagree with some of her earlier interpretations of Naranjo, though I find that, like many others, she has come a long way in her understanding of the same. I can see you lumping it all in with typees, one of whom you've mentioned yourself, who had a certain pattern of doubt and over-certainty, though I disagree that she falls into the same. I was talking to her earlier about her adamant attitude on some of her threads, something I have dealt with from 7s such @_Swordsman of Mana_, as well. And, in his case, his silly ass was adamantly "RIGHT" that he wasn't a 3. :laughing: 

Unlike the 6s I touched upon, Animal has been legitimately willing to reflect, correct and mean it when she personally apologized for being somewhat close-minded on the thread. It doesn't make her a non-6 per se, but that was not an accurate assessment of how she went about her typing. 

It was not some defensive ploy as I have seen on multiple threads, nor was it a diplomatic deflection on every single occassion, even if I disagreed wholeheartedly with the arguments she continued to make for typings that were ultimately completely off, and I said as much on each of her threads I participated on extensively. I know, she had her mind made up, and regardless of what people were saying, at times, she was insistent on things as was SOM and some others. But, once that block was removed of, she was very open to disagreement and took the comments of multiple people to heart and pondered them. I would never have said this unless I had noticed it for myself. When she reached out with her apology, it was always sincere and always accompanied with open-mindedness and open-heartedness. Hence, the conversation where I convinced her that she had a line to 1 somewhere in her core beyond any shred of doubt. 

I've had a few of those adamant Animal discussions where there was a wall up, and I was wasting time and walked away, and several of those where she was exceedingly receptive and open. Personal reasons, feeling vulnerable and stripped, inexperience with a new approach to theoretical interpretations, many things can play into this. The differences are subtle, but they're there. Some of your reasoning is not objective and is painted by poor experiences you've had with 6s whose typing journey has a passing resemblance to Animal's. 


Through Animal's example, my main point here is to establish that overt similarities between typing journeys do not make for convincing typing arguments. The other point is to establish that likening someone rejecting a typing to "spitting in other's faces" is an incredibly childish, defensive and butthurt way of looking at things. 

I have been far more active, at one point, with the typing process considering I was one of creators of the Ennea questionnaire and was heavily involved with editing the update, than you have ever been. I've had people lose their shit and overreact on typing threads, hitting below the belt and so on, and while I have no respect for such juvenile weak and hilarious antics and people wasting an ounce of my time, even then I didn't take it personally to the point of feeling like I'd been spit in the face. That is melodramatic as fuck. :laughing:




> Shortly about the So/Sx: In ephemereality's case it's easier -- seek out your latest type-me thread about the instincts. The answers there just couldn't be more indicative of an So-dom & Sp-last, IMO. Consult _objective_ others about your answers there, you'll be surprised. Animal is being perceived as a clear-cut Sx-dom, but I call So for her aswell. People don't realize just how 'intense' or any Sx-ish buzzwords an So/Sx 6 can be. Even much more than an actual Sx6 or any other Sexual type for that matter. The Social instinct makes the scattered-ness of the 6 much more flowing & restless. Certain people of this subtype are the type of people you think never go to sleep, they're always ON, and can rock it the hardest of all types in the system. It's so easy to type them as 'Sx-dom' because they're oh so intense and use animalistic words to describe themselves. Jawz if anyone remembers him was another 6w7 So/Sx perceived as an Sx-dom. Unsurprisingly, he also left here typing as an Sx 458.


I agree with much of this, though I type Animal as an Sx dom after initially typing her as So/Sx myself. As for Ephem, much as I'd love to chap his ass for shits and giggles by calling him an So dom because I know he is vocally biased against the same, I find it somewhat insulting to the idea of SO dominance to call him one. :laughing:

People are not SX doms only because they chirp and blabber on and on and fuckin on about how carnal, lusty, sexual and other such shit they supposedly are. Sx dominance and Type 8 lust for example are not about physical desire. It's a myopic and patently foolish way of looking at instincts.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Marlowe said:


> Are Te doms supposed to have blunt posts?
> 
> Also, the Ti-Fe claim is a new one, although I did originally type as an ESTP when I got into the MBTI. I don't think I've ever noticed either in any of my posts. Can you elaborate on what gave you that impression?
> 
> And are you also suggesting a core of 7w8 or 8w7 for me? Or am I misreading your post?


Whoops, sorry; didn't mean to ignore your post. :blushed:

Well, most of the Te doms and even some auxs - particularly ISTJs, I've observed on PerC; tend to have this blunt, terse, to the point writing style; Yours is much more flowing - more characteristic of a Ti user; just my take.

I honestly have no idea what your E type is but from what little I know of you; I'm not picking up either 7w8 or 8w7. Possibly, 7w6, 5w?, You seem to be very easy going and very curious; so, possibly a head type?


@Donovan, I think that you are definitely a so/sx INFJ. As far as E type goes: 7w6, 2w1, 4w? You are extremely intuitive and insightful, is all I've got so far. 
@Animal, I'm retyping you.

4w? (can't decided on the wing yet) 7w6 9w8 (I think you have a 9 fix)

You mentioned Tori Amos:

Not all of her songs have as much 5 wing in them as others. Two of her most 5ish songs are "Silent All These Years" and this one.






I personally relate to this one the most.


----------



## Sina

Marlowe said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> 
> With regards to your long post about @_Animal_ (and ephemerality), could it not be argued that that push an pull dynamic with other opinions and personal assuredness in type me threads is a manifestation of three-ness rather than six-ness?


The push-pull = 6 argument was made by @_Arienette_ on a previous page before I had even posted on the subject. So, you have mistakenly typed my name in your last post . 

Though, since I have been tagged anyway, I will address it as well.

There are various manifestations of the push and pull- dynamic. When it comes to doubt and over-certainty, combined with other factors, that is usually though not exclusively a 6 dynamic. The conflict between doubt and over-certainty (termed as such by Naranjo as well), seeking out and then vehemently questioning authority or feeling trapped or controlled by it, without much in the name of actual attempts at control, is far more in line with 6 than 3.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

TreasureTower said:


> Not all of her songs have as much 5 wing in them as others. Two of her most 5ish songs are "Silent All These Years" and this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally relate to this one the most.


Hmm, how do you think they sound 5ish? Genuinely curious.

(Silent All These Years strike me as kind of 9ish, but idk about Winter.)


----------



## Chesire Tower

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, how do you think they sound 5ish? Genuinely curious.


While there are numerous interpretations that one could have of these lyrics; for me anyhow; what is significant; is about *life passing her over and having nothing to show for it*. In _my_ case, that would involve accomplishments. I fear doing because I secretly feat that I'm in incompetent in whatever specific task I'm working on and a fear of being useless in general. So, in my personal interpretation - it'll be different for everyone - "All the white horses have gone ahead" with "so many dreams on the shelf"; to mean translates to: it's the end of my life and I have all these regrets because I never accomplished anything, because I wasn't able to believe in myself; that I could do what I set my mind to. I fear that's what will happen if I don't find the "crystal palace" inside of me and unless I stop "skating around the truth who I am"; IOW, trust in myself to achieve whatever I want and to stop doubting myself.

Of course, there isn't any part of the song, that I _don't_ relate to; including the part about her dad having the faith in her, that she needs to develop. I also relate very strongly to the other song I mentioned; I just don't like the lyrics and the song; as much as this one.

The song is about believing in oneself, as the only path to salvation. For me, "salvation" is actually making something of my life; so I can stop feeling so useless. Does that answer your question? =)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

TreasureTower said:


> The song is about believing in oneself, as the only path to salvation. For me, "salvation" is actually making something of my life; so I can stop feeling so useless. Does that answer your question? =)


I see what you're saying, yeah. It's not quite how I see type 5, though. Not that I can think of any songs that reminds me of type 5. Guess my taste in music isn't very 5ish. :/


----------



## 0+n*1

For those who have seen me wandering around the forum, I want your impressions and opinions on my type. I currently type as a sp/so 6 from the 469 tritype. My heart type is the less firm of my fixes (even if it comes in second place in my stacking). Also, if you have an idea of my MBTI type then suggest (I think I'm a IXTX type).


----------



## Chesire Tower

Nonsense said:


> I see what you're saying, yeah. It's not quite how I see type 5, though. Not that I can think of any songs that reminds me of type 5. Guess my taste in music isn't very 5ish. :/


I see the songs as either 4w5 or 5w4; to be more specific.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

TreasureTower said:


> I see the songs as either 4w5 or 5w4; to be more specific.


Why not 5w6? :kitteh:


----------



## Arya

TreasureTower said:


> I think that the instinctual variants are not really based on what one is "good at" but by one's focus. I think that to suggest that So doms _need_ to be good at group dynamics is conflating it with Fe. Enneagram is based on what's important to you; MBTI/Socionics is based more on actual skill.


Yes and no. It would be easy to get confused with your last function if you were just noticing what you focus on. I pay attention a lot to my first and last function. I don't focus much on my middle function even though I'm quite good at using it. I'm terrible at my last function, but I still pay a lot of attention to it, because I don't want to neglect myself. I do think having low Fe could change how an SO dom came across though. I was just think about that in reference to what FreeBeer just said. And just to ask, what does mean if you're good at being SX? Does that mean you're good at practically getting yourself killed? Lol. I'm just kidding around.


----------



## mimesis

FreeBeer said:


> ^^; I do care about making sure the group survives or bringing about social change in areas that I think are "corrupted". I understand the general mood (feel it) and can read people one individual at a time or in a group (emotionally / body language) without getting emotionally invested much (its easy to shrug off other people's feelz imo)...but most often I do not understand where people are coming from if its social in nature...like stuff I'm supposed to know for example introducing ppl to each other I forget a lot, keeping in touch, I'm terrible at keeping in touch, I may say or do something that upsets everyone but I didn't mean to, I just don't get how their values are and so on. I don't know what to say, how to say it and I'm horrendous at maintaining close relationships with other people. I tend to get lost in other interests very quickly (mostly new ones). Stuff like that comes to me but usually as a afterthought. *Me and socializing is like a bull in a china shop, but I care about other people, family and society in general in my own way..o.o.*
> 
> :frustrating: other then that idk, I get upset and pissed if people do amoral crap and its really hard for me to restrain myself from doing some idiotic "hero" bullshit, but I know better and think before I act (most of the time)...I even take in helpless abandoned animals (mostly cats <3 cats).
> 
> *PS: hierarchies and social "pyramids" can suck my apple round ass *
> 
> @_Phoenix_Rebirth_ Q_Q oh shit, oh shit...I deleted skype again...I'm so sorry! Dude say something on PerC sometimes! ._. m-merry Christmas and happy new year! PM me on FB or something don't sit there mute when I'm off in lalaLand.


So what's your case for being So dom then? 

I must say I'm a bit stunned to see you typed Ne dom now. I've come to know you as an INFP a year ago and you have been ISFP...ish also. Type 6 is most consistent until now. You strike me as a critical thinker, up to the point of being Sc -dom, that is, scepticism seems to be the most prevailing and dominant instinct. I mean with all due respect, but can you imagine it makes it difficult for someone else to take your word for it, or to consider your case as exemplary? 

Instinct theory is about assigning energy (prioritizing). So, if you don't assign energy to those specific social issues, what social issues do? Of course I believe you care about people, but the question is not just an opinion or value judgement, but the amount of energy you assign into focus of thought /attention or action. (and more or less at the expense of the other instincts). If you don't keep in touch, you don't spend energy and focus of attention on it (provided the reason is because you forget about it and it doesn't cross your mind). It's okay to be So dom and don't send anyone a christmas card, but then it has to be going elsewhere wouldn't you say?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

TreasureTower said:


> I think that the instinctual variants are not really based on what one is "good at" but by one's focus. I think that to suggest that So doms _need_ to be good at group dynamics is conflating it with Fe. Enneagram is based on what's important to you; MBTI/Socionics is based more on actual skill.


I more or less think that too. Or at least it might feel like you come short with your dominant instinct? I'm not sure.

With MBTI/Socionics, though, I wonder. I'm not sure I feel that skilled with any of my functions.


----------



## mimesis

Arya said:


> Yes and no. It would be easy to get confused with your last function if you were just noticing what you focus on. I pay attention a lot to my first and last function. I don't focus much on my middle function even though I'm quite good at using it. I'm terrible at my last function, but I still pay a lot of attention to it, because I don't want to neglect myself. I do think having low Fe could change how an SO dom came across though. I was just think about that in reference to what FreeBeer just said. And just to ask, what does mean if you're good at being SX? Does that mean you're good at practically getting yourself killed? Lol. I'm just kidding around.


The instincts aren't separate. Taking care of your food may be driven by Sx or So instinct. Just like someone may want to come across as sexy for Soc purposes, more driven by a desire to be accepted than the thrill and intensity or chemistry of attraction. On the other hand, someone may be somewhat obsessed with clothing, to appear or to come across as someone who is succesful in Sp, (for Sx purposes, or Soc) while spending all his money on this at the expense of his physical health, his personal comfort at home, saving resources for later, etc.


----------



## DomNapoleon

ephemereality said:


> I often don't open type me threads because *I seek input on my type because I don't need much external input*.


Hummm interesting


----------



## Arya

mimesis said:


> The instincts aren't separate. Taking care of your food may be driven by Sx or So instinct. Just like someone may want to come across as sexy for Soc purposes, more driven by a desire to be accepted than the thrill and intensity or chemistry of attraction. On the other hand, someone may be somewhat obsessed with clothing, to appear or to come across as someone who is succesful in Sp, (for Sx purposes, or Soc) while spending all his money on this at the expense of his physical health, his personal comfort at home, etc.


Only it's not. That's my problem. If I don't pay attention I'll go hours without eating. These types of things (running off for hours in the sun without a hat and no water, not eating when I should, not paying attention to money) have become a problem that I tend to obsess over, because it's caused me problems. It's not really fun to get nasty sun burns or get heat stroke or get really faint because I haven't eaten. That's why my focus now goes towards those things.


----------



## mimesis

Arya said:


> Only it's not. That's my problem. If I don't pay attention I'll go hours without eating. These types of things (running off for hours in the sun without a hat and no water, not eating when I should, not paying attention to money) have become a problem that I tend to obsess over, because it's caused me problems. It's not really fun to get nasty sun burns or get heat stroke or get really faint because I haven't eaten. That's why my focus now goes towards those things.


Okay, then I understand you say it costs you energy and focus, but only because you forget about it, right? Meaning, you're inclined to spend your focus and energy on other matters. And in general things that are not your passion tend to feel as a drain, where your passion feels like something effortless. But that's because it's so easy to assign energy. After the climax, it may be a completely different story!


----------



## Psithurism

ephemereality said:


> the type 5 seeks total acceptance without judgement.


Would the opposite sentiment be linked to any type? I have a clear/conscious desire to accept everyone without judging. It's been a somewhat natural ideal to me and has influenced my views immensely (e.g political).

I might have something to say about a person's ideas/arguments but it's more about analyzing those ideas impersonally. I will never deliberately judge a person because of their values/opinions.

This could be just a general thing; I'm just wondering.


----------



## Arya

mimesis said:


> Okay, then I understand you say it costs you energy and focus, but only because you forget about it, right? Meaning, you're inclined to spend your focus and energy on other matters. And in general things that are not your passion tend to feel as a drain, where your passion feels like something effortless. But that's because it's so easy to assign energy. After the climax, it may be a completely different story!


Yeah, they aren't things I want to deal with, but I have to or I'll just cause myself trouble. My middle function on the other hand is not something I focus on because I don't care about it. On the other hand, it never causes me trouble like my last function does. 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Kabosu

Anyone want to suggest a different MBTI, especially one suggesting the perception functions are different?
Still makes more sense than me testing as EII on a test.


----------



## The Messenger

@_ephemereality_, the gender reference wasn't intentional.. I didn't read these discussions you refer to. Don't kill me, bro.

Staying on topic just to clear some things up. All in good spirit lovely ppl of perc :3

The Social instinct functions as a network. Another network is the internet, which isn't a stand-alone but one which fuses with the social instinct's network due to having people connected to it. Evolutionary-wise, the way we tended to use this instinct for gazillion of years is getting a whole new twist in just two decades. Those with the Social instinct as dominant could find it as an appropriate *replacement* for their natural, instinctual network. And so people like ephemereality say they're an island, that they don't really need anyone & they couldn't care less about what's going on in the world, but on the way forgetting that they are _constantly_ connected to other people online. You say you have no group orientation, but you form guilds in online games; you say you don't need anyone but form friendships on forums such as this. You could just come here, post, do your fair share of contribution & self-expressing yourself, but forming friendships isn't obligatory, it doesn't come automatically with participating in such a place. You orient yourself towards that place. You are alone in your room disconnected from the world at large, but in reality you get all that juice online, so why bother looking for it outside if it's not of your concern?

I don't like using n=1 examples but it might be relevant: I didn't give a rats ass about the world, didn't watch the news & barely knew who's the prime minister in my country up until I was about 22-23. My dad, who's an Sp/Sx 2w3, keeps telling me even today that I live in a bubble, since I still find it hard to find interest in daily events. I live in one of the most conflicted countries in the world, but am not part of that conflict, I don't live it, although it's a main social-cultural routine that occupies everyone around here. An Sp-dom telling a So-dom that he lives in a bubble... the Sp is more connected than the Social. Even nowadays with my increased awareness, I don't read the newspapers because I get it _online_, I don't watch the news everyday because I get it _online_. You said before you want to be an _anthropologist_ which is socially & culturally based field, what draws you towards it?

Some quotes from that mentioned type-me thread (http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/126795-i-bored-ok.html):



> I tend to create groups around me wherever I go. I also tend to join groups when I engage them





> It's like the world doesn't care about me even though I did something good for once.





> Define special group. I mean, I do kind of identify with group identities like I think being a metalhead is an important aspect of who I am, and I kind of take pride of my INTP label etc. If I am a member of a group, I tend to gravitate towards a leader-role.





> I am very image-focused so there are things I don't do because it'd ruin the impression people have of me which I do not think really reflects who I actually am.


An extremely image-focused So-last Five caring about recognition & others' impression of him, forming & joining groups *wherever he goes*, identifying with group identities, taking leadership roles... really?

Having an instinct dominantly doesn't make the native fluent with it, not even makes it manifest in a conventional way as the descriptions tend to portray the very mechanism of the instinct (not to confuse with stereotypical nonsense). We're living in unconventional times with technological progress that completely reshapes the way we use our instincts; each of us is unique, and that's why I argued in the first place that perceptions & even throughout details about a person can be very misleading, even if on surface value that person DOES fit another type or instinct better.

Take @_FreeBeer_ in example: Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you protesting once, even uploading an image of you wearing a Guy Fawkes mask? Aren't you freakin' pissed off all the time about corporation's corruption & abuse of power? The monetary system? Aren't movies like Zeitgeist talk to your heart? Don't you want to make social change in the world? You talk about social phobia, about lacking social skills, and to me it seems like you were avoiding all your life, avoiding dealing with your deficiencies head-on and came to terms with your inappropriate social skills which inturn perhaps lead to that distrust of groups you developed. Try to imagine this case: I lift off the social phobia off your back, I give you top-notch social skills (Ta-da!). How would you use it? Do you see yourself more immersed in that instinct? Ask yourself that. How do you see most of your energies geared towards to if your competency as a social user wasn't so scary & uncomfortable for you.

I'm off. This thread was doing really good before I jumped on it with my gibberish, ha. Keep on chaps, if you want it's preferable to further discuss this privately.


----------



## Sina

phoenix_rebirth said:


> hummm interesting


lmfao


@_Arienette_

excellent points esp the Sp being more connected and your elaboration on the same. how would you type my instincts? you briefly alluded to the sx impression, so i am curious. feel free to offer a tritype suggestion if you're up to it. 

@_Mr.Rbtoo_

you strike me as a 461 or 641 sx/so or something. reasoning was provided on your thread. why do you type as sx last?


----------



## 0+n*1

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> you strike me as a 461 or 641 sx/so or something. reasoning was provided on your thread. why do you type as sx last?


I self-type as sx-last because I don't see me as intense or passionate. I recognize it's not nonexistent though. I used to say I was reservedly intense and passionate but now I don't know. My self-perception is all over the place lately. Actually it has rarely been stable. I can see a case for sx-second but where do the other instincts go. I consider my sp and so instincts to be at least not weak. I don't relate to social instinct in the conventional way but I do in a conceptual level like the one Arienette described above and my interpretation of the self-pres instinct presence in me has been my focus on self-sufficiency and me relating more to myself than my roles within groups I belong to and pursued passions. Even saying I pursue passions sounds dishonest. However, it has happened more than once (but not enough for me to consider it significant) that others see me as more passionate than I do. I also have the impression that more people see me as uninteresting, unappealing, stale, boring, turned off, generic. Maybe it's my low self-esteem since everything is so relative. About the tritype, well, it's not a crazy typing. Thanks for the input. I have the feeling that you're seeing more from me than what's truly there but that's just an unfounded impression and not your fault. I still think I'm not presenting myself fully or I'm presenting exaggerations of me. And also I should know. Thanks though. I fully agree with the 6. Haha xD.


----------



## Entropic

Blissful Melancholy said:


> Would the opposite sentiment be linked to any type? I have a clear/conscious desire to accept everyone without judging. It's been a somewhat natural ideal to me and has influenced my views immensely (e.g political).
> 
> I might have something to say about a person's ideas/arguments but it's more about analyzing those ideas impersonally. I will never deliberately judge a person because of their values/opinions.
> 
> This could be just a general thing; I'm just wondering.


Read Maitri and her descriptions of the instincts. What you express seems 9 though. This need to avoid conflict. 



Arienette said:


> @_ephemereality_, the gender reference wasn't intentional.. I didn't read these discussions you refer to. Don't kill me, bro.
> 
> Staying on topic just to clear some things up. All in good spirit lovely ppl of perc :3
> 
> The Social instinct functions as a network. Another network is the internet, which isn't a stand-alone but one which fuses with the social instinct's network due to having people connected to it. Evolutionary-wise, the way we tended to use this instinct for gazillion of years is getting a whole new twist in just two decades. Those with the Social instinct as dominant could find it as an appropriate *replacement* for their natural, instinctual network. And so people like ephemereality say they're an island, that they don't really need anyone & they couldn't care less about what's going on in the world, but on the way forgetting that they are _constantly_ connected to other people online. You say you have no group orientation, but you form guilds in online games; you say you don't need anyone but form friendships on forums such as this. You could just come here, post, do your fair share of contribution & self-expressing yourself, but forming friendships isn't obligatory, it doesn't come automatically with participating in such a place. You orient yourself towards that place. You are alone in your room disconnected from the world at large, but in reality you get all that juice online, so why bother looking for it outside if it's not of your concern?
> 
> I don't like using n=1 examples but it might be relevant: I didn't give a rats ass about the world, didn't watch the news & barely knew who's the prime minister in my country up until I was about 22-23. My dad, who's an Sp/Sx 2w3, keeps telling me even today that I live in a bubble, since I still find it hard to find interest in daily events. I live in one of the most conflicted countries in the world, but am not part of that conflict, I don't live it, although it's a main social-cultural routine that occupies everyone around here. An Sp-dom telling a So-dom that he lives in a bubble... the Sp is more connected than the Social. Even nowadays with my increased awareness, I don't read the newspapers because I get it _online_, I don't watch the news everyday because I get it _online_. You said before you want to be an _anthropologist_ which is socially & culturally based field, what draws you towards it?
> 
> Some quotes from that mentioned type-me thread (http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/126795-i-bored-ok.html):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An extremely image-focused So-last Five caring about recognition & others' impression of him, forming & joining groups *wherever he goes*, identifying with group identities, taking leadership roles... really?
> 
> Having an instinct dominantly doesn't make the native fluent with it, not even makes it manifest in a conventional way as the descriptions tend to portray the very mechanism of the instinct (not to confuse with stereotypical nonsense). We're living in unconventional times with technological progress that completely reshapes the way we use our instincts; each of us is unique, and that's why I argued in the first place that perceptions & even throughout details about a person can be very misleading, even if on surface value that person DOES fit another type or instinct better.
> 
> Take @_FreeBeer_ in example: Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you protesting once, even uploading an image of you wearing a Guy Fawkes mask? Aren't you freakin' pissed off all the time about corporation's corruption & abuse of power? The monetary system? Aren't movies like Zeitgeist talk to your heart? Don't you want to make social change in the world? You talk about social phobia, about lacking social skills, and to me it seems like you were avoiding all your life, avoiding dealing with your deficiencies head-on and came to terms with your inappropriate social skills which inturn perhaps lead to that distrust of groups you developed. Try to imagine this case: I lift off the social phobia off your back, I give you top-notch social skills (Ta-da!). How would you use it? Do you see yourself more immersed in that instinct? Ask yourself that. How do you see most of your energies geared towards to if your competency as a social user wasn't so scary & uncomfortable for you.
> 
> I'm off. This thread was doing really good before I jumped on it with my gibberish, ha. Keep on chaps, if you want it's preferable to further discuss this privately.


I don't care if it was on purpose or not. You should learn to be conscious of people's choice of gender and expressions. How can you get my new username right but not my gender that I changed with it? Realize that it's really fucking offensive and hurts people. No one wants to be misgendered including you. Seriously. 6 months and people still don't get such a simple thing. 

As for your justification, it might apply if the interest why I'm on the Internet is because I seek social community. Where have I've done this on PerC? I'm primarily driven by self-interest and a go-getter mentality. If someone else won't do it and I want it I will do it. I never formed guilds around social needs. I did out of personal self-interest because I want something so I will make myself get it and the guild is a means to an end just like PerC is a means to an end. Also, sx types seek connection as well. Just not social. All my friends are almost without exception sx doms though from PerC I only speak to two people regularly and I did because I found them interesting and we clicked. 

As for anthropology, still driven by self-interest. I want to understand the world and how it operates and anthropology offers such a methodology. I ended up studying subjects of personal interest and community because that was what my MA program focused on, though I quickly realized I cannot work in the field because I don't care for people. My topic of interests was always directed by my own interest in music and how I love it. It involved people more as an aside. I never really cared much for the social aspect of anthropology more than that it helps me to understand the world and people but being involved in their local communities is honestly something that scared me the most. I never really liked that aspect of field work. When I say I don't care I really don't care. I gave up a promising career choice because it was too socially involved. I prefer to work alone towards my own ends. 

My sense of image pertains to myself and who I feel I am. I want to be true and genuine to myself always and I want to express myself fully as I am without having to experience shame because it doesn't fit someone elses view of how to be. I care about how I look because I don't want to give off an impression that isn't me. But to project an image for a social role is not what I do. I couldn't care less about status or to fit in. I care about being myself first and foremost. 

At some point I don't know if you are referring to me or FreeBeer because I have never have an avatar with guy Fawkes but FreeBeer has. I haven't to my knowledge ever bothered to rail against certain politics because while I have opinions I can't keep the debate rational when people dwith what perspective I think is wrong. I don't even think I have mentioned my impression of the Zeitgeist film here that I found interesting but mostly the religious aspect because I liked the symbolism though in the long run I don't think it holds much meaning and it has been debunked several times. The aspect of capitalism that it raises isn't really the strong point of the film and I didn't care much for it though the view has some merit. I don't really care about Zeitgeist. It came, it got popular, it faded into oblivion like all other fads. I didn't even see it because I found it myself but because someone posted it on a forum I was active on back then that was about atheism because I was militant for a while. So honest opinion on that question? I still wouldn't care. I have sufficient social skills to get by even if I find socialization difficult though that alone is not a reason why I type so last. I wouldn't care if you made me into Jay Leno or whatever. I care about what I care about which includes myself and my self-interests and the people I happened to have interest in and care for. Though tbh I'm fucking happy I ain't a Jay Leno because I'd kill myself first because I have yet to encounter a talk show without an obnoxious as fuck host the little I care for watching them, which is usually a result when I do celebrity typing. 

Your analysis is shallow. You make assumptions without really knowing the full picture. Since you are posting here Iassume your type is also up to debate and I don't see the Ni dominace. You take too much at face value or read too much into things not there. Did you ever consider ISTP?


----------



## mushr00m

@Arienette

Id also be interested in your first impressions on my stacking if your up to. :kitteh:


----------



## LibertyPrime

Arienette said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you protesting once, even uploading an image of you wearing a Guy Fawkes mask? Aren't you freakin' pissed off all the time about corporation's corruption & abuse of power? The monetary system? Aren't movies like Zeitgeist talk to your heart? Don't you want to make social change in the world? You talk about social phobia, about lacking social skills, and to me it seems like you were avoiding all your life, avoiding dealing with your deficiencies head-on and came to terms with your inappropriate social skills which inturn perhaps lead to that distrust of groups you developed. Try to imagine this case: I lift off the social phobia off your back, I give you top-notch social skills (Ta-da!). How would you use it? Do you see yourself more immersed in that instinct? Ask yourself that. How do you see most of your energies geared towards to if your competency as a social user wasn't so scary & uncomfortable for you.
> 
> I'm off. This thread was doing really good before I jumped on it with my gibberish, ha. Keep on chaps, if you want it's preferable to further discuss this privately.


Idk how I'd react to having better Fe. The problem is I have too much baggage and am too disenchanted/cynical/disgusted by humanity, the current political system, the current economical system and all the amoral & illogical shit we do day in day out. I don't dislike / fear groups without a good reason. Imo people all to often forget they are individuals and need to take responsibility for what they do and say & think.

I don't think we can fix all this crap because we can't change people. They just have to evolve critical thinking, ethics and taking responsibility on their own. I'd rather provide absolutely free access to information and teach people how to self educate...no better cure imo.

I certainly would not put myself out there in harms way starting something that would make very little to no difference. People can be kept down, but ideas  you can't keep good idea down. It will keep on coming back as many times as it takes, through different people at different times. I definitely don't like large corrupt corporations, governments or any entity that stands in the way of progress through a want for power and control.

*I don't need better Fe to be a So dom, I'll do it my own way...and I'm not like those rule abiding prussian group loving social 6-es.*

I went out there with the Guy Fawkes mask because I wasn't going to let ACTA slip by, no fucking way! The internet is one of man's greatest inventions..its like fire or the wheel, electricity etc.. its my place, I live here. 






*If this isn't SO base channeled through SX secondary then I don't know what is.*

*I certainly FEEl strongly about this. It is my "element".*

@mimesis

The answer is in the above mentioned.

I don't spend much time worrying or focusing on physical resources, but sometimes that thought comes to haunt me due to my neglect, so I mobilize to generate resources for a wile. Time as a resource i feel mre like this nagging sense in the back of my skull that sometimes comes to the forefront, but is mostly forgotten. Idk how I focus on Sx needs or how people define those nowadays, but my lack of stereotypical SO-ness leads me to believe its not far from So.

I do not really know my MBTI type. In socionics I seem to be IEE, which I translate function by function into ENFP, but I'm more like an introvert, just that I get energized when interacting with people by sharing ideas & debating. I get nothing from routine socializing and talking about the weather or anything that doesn't interest me and I get drained if I can't share my thoughts with an audience...so I assume I'm extroverted cognitively, but I'm not really social.

Without the internet for example and an outlet...I'd go insane alone.

*Either way I only know my BIG5 and Enneagram type. MBTI and Socionics is just speculation. I have no certainties there.*


----------



## mimesis

@FreeBeer 

You are a photographer do I remember this correctly? How would you describe a walk downtown, in terms of focus?


----------



## Animal

Arienette said:


> That goes to both of you. Animal, you had like a gazillion members explaining indepth why they can't see you as a certain type (be it 5, 3, 8 or 4),


I covered this already but I've had a gazillion members suggesting 3, 8, and 4 to me ever since I typed at 5, so this is factually biased. Out of all the types, 8, 7 and 4 were most often suggested, regardless of how I was typed at the time. I've had a few members nail me to the wall with a 4SX-case long before I typed at 4.



> and* in most cases you act all cute & diplomatic*


Speaking of cute and diplomatic..



Arienette said:


> @_ephemereality_, the gender reference wasn't intentional.. I didn't read these discussions you refer to. Don't kill me, bro.
> 
> Staying on topic just to clear some things up. *All in good spirit lovely ppl of perc :3*





> I'm off. This thread was doing really good before I jumped on it with *my gibberish, ha. Keep on chaps*,


You are pretty cute and diplomatic yourself. :wink: 



> if you want it's preferable to further discuss this privately.


Hmm, interesting. I love it when people make a big case in public and then they don't want to back it up in public. If this were a private matter, it could have been brought up in private in the first place.

I also find it interesting that you didn't address my responses to your post in which I pointed out your major oversights & leaps, and instead decided to make your "cute and diplomatic" posts on other topics, but that's neither here nor there, you're not obligated to address them. Personally I would have handled it differently, especially after accusing someone else of being "cute and diplomatic." It's all good though. I'm not bent out of shape over this, nor do I expect a response. It's just going into my bag of observations about your character and perhaps, your type, if I should see more evidence of this kind of evasiveness & cutesy charm over time and figure out what is behind it.  In your first post, you were ever so sure of yourself, and then, when pressed with facts, you backed down and avoided me altogether. 

Though I will say, some of the other ideas you presented after that were interesting and well thought-out.



> The Social instinct functions as a network. Another network is the internet, which isn't a stand-alone but one which fuses with the social instinct's network due to having people connected to it. Evolutionary-wise, the way we tended to use this instinct for gazillion of years is getting a whole new twist in just two decades. Those with the Social instinct as dominant could find it as an appropriate *replacement* for their natural, instinctual network. And so people like ephemereality say they're an island, that they don't really need anyone & they couldn't care less about what's going on in the world, but on the way forgetting that they are _constantly_ connected to other people online. You say you have no group orientation, but you form guilds in online games; you say you don't need anyone but form friendships on forums such as this. You could just come here, post, do your fair share of contribution & self-expressing yourself, but forming friendships isn't obligatory, it doesn't come automatically with participating in such a place. You orient yourself towards that place. You are alone in your room disconnected from the world at large, but in reality you get all that juice online, so why bother looking for it outside if it's not of your concern?


Though I disagree about @_ephemereality_'s stacking specifically, I liked this portion of the post and the angle presented. This is something people often forget about social instinct and how that context is played out given the technology of today.


----------



## Halcyon

So no one has any opinions on my type? Didn't think so... lol. Well, if anyone ever does, gimme a mention and we can talk about it over some tea... or something. :kitteh:


----------



## The Messenger

@_Animal_, at the first line of my opening post I wrote I'm not going to supply an indepth analysis. There's a reason I'm not active around here, one of which is that posting one single post takes me *lots* of time. I'm pretty slow, for a bunch of reasons. And so what happens then when I get dragged into a discussion? I could literally spend the entire day sitting & writing. That happened in the past, and I can't afford that nowadays. Saying I'm off and if anyone wants to go privately wasn't an escape from my case -- what was it then that I wrote in that entire post? that was a pretty good case about ephemereality's dominant instinct if you ask me. It was, yes, a diplomatic cutesy way of saying 'Okay guys, it went too far, I don't want to keep on doing that so if anyone still wants you can reach me out on private', which is a combination of the lack of time I mentioned & that I don't want this discussion to take over the thread. Your kind of cuteness is unbeatable, gurl!

As for your responses, all I saw was value judgements with nothing concrete about the types suggested. What I saw from both of you was a defensive stance; you complaining about some imaginary boundaries I made around your ability to post, whether you considered a type or disrespected others or not, what you think or don't think...



> Anyone can open a thread anywhere they want on the forum. You have no idea what I have or haven't reflected on


...Classic. Wanted to reply at the beginning but there were more 'urgent' posts such a Boss' who took my available energies. There was no meat in neither of yours posts for me to feel obligated enough to reply afterwards, so I moved on. I feel the same way towards ephemereality's posts. He's usually very subjective & emotional when debating on these stuff. I believe my latest post was good enough to end the discussion and I could carry on.

@_mushr00m_, @_Cosmic Orgasm_, I'll try to get back to you ASAP if I find to have anything valuable to offer! I have many observations of you two (surprise, surprise), but nothing is solid enough to help you reach conclusions, IMO.

BTW, Boss, you were curious about other doctrines related to the instincts that I mentioned. While I didn't mean all these doctrines are specifically related to the instincts, I actually wrote about one a week ago or so @ the 4 subforum about Ayurveda and how I think it relates to the instincts: http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/172057-mesomorphic-type-4s.html

It directly connects to this discussion, on false perceptions, both of ourselves & others. Interesting stuff. There are two posts there, don't miss 'em. I couldn't edit it afterwards, Kapha's predominantly Water & Earth.


----------



## Animal

Arienette said:


> Your kind of cuteness is unbeatable, gurl!


:kitteh: *fluffs feathers*




> There was no meat in neither of yours posts for me to feel obligated enough to reply afterwards, so I moved on.


This is how I felt about your post, too. There was no meat in it that actually pertained to me as a person. And that has nothing to do with the numbers or instincts being presented. It has to do with personal integrity. I am not going to address a type on the basis of personality traits or descriptions of type-traits that I find to be baseless. Given a portrayal of me which I found unrealistic, and oversights about my motives or actions, there was nothing to address in terms of numbers. 

All that being said, I appreciate time constraints. I don't see the point in continuing this either and nobody has an obligation to respond, of course. I was just sharing my observations because to me, when I accuse somebody of something which is proven to be baseless, or off base in some ways (and I'm talking about my character and the things said about me personally, not the type) ... I have the integrity to address it and explain where I'm coming from and either back up my stance, or apologize if my stance was, indeed, off base. That's my first priority. It has to do with respect. I'm not expecting you to operate like me, but simply sharing why it struck me.

I also found it insulting to type 6 that you would say such bad things about me and show your complete lack of appreciation for my character and then lump me in with that type without a basis that really related to that type. My best friend is a 6, and so is my brother - I was insulted on _their_ behalf. They have nothing in common with the passive-aggressive 6ey wolf pack you described.


----------



## Entropic

FreeBeer said:


> Idk how I'd react to having better Fe. The problem is I have too much baggage and am too disenchanted/cynical/disgusted by humanity, the current political system, the current economical system and all the amoral & illogical shit we do day in day out. I don't dislike / fear groups without a good reason. Imo people all to often forget they are individuals and need to take responsibility for what they do and say & think.
> 
> I don't think we can fix all this crap because we can't change people. They just have to evolve critical thinking, ethics and taking responsibility on their own. I'd rather provide absolutely free access to information and teach people how to self educate...no better cure imo.
> 
> I certainly would not put myself out there in harms way starting something that would make very little to no difference. People can be kept down, but ideas  you can't keep good idea down. It will keep on coming back as many times as it takes, through different people at different times. I definitely don't like large corrupt corporations, governments or any entity that stands in the way of progress through a want for power and control.
> 
> *I don't need better Fe to be a So dom, I'll do it my own way...and I'm not like those rule abiding prussian group loving social 6-es.*
> 
> I went out there with the Guy Fawkes mask because I wasn't going to let ACTA slip by, no fucking way! The internet is one of man's greatest inventions..its like fire or the wheel, electricity etc.. its my place, I live here.
> 
> 
> *If this isn't SO base channeled through SX secondary then I don't know what is.*
> 
> *I certainly FEEl strongly about this. It is my "element".*
> 
> 
> The answer is in the above mentioned.
> 
> I don't spend much time worrying or focusing on physical resources, but sometimes that thought comes to haunt me due to my neglect, so I mobilize to generate resources for a wile. Time as a resource i feel mre like this nagging sense in the back of my skull that sometimes comes to the forefront, but is mostly forgotten. Idk how I focus on Sx needs or how people define those nowadays, but my lack of stereotypical SO-ness leads me to believe its not far from So.
> 
> I do not really know my MBTI type. In socionics I seem to be IEE, which I translate function by function into ENFP, but I'm more like an introvert, just that I get energized when interacting with people by sharing ideas & debating. I get nothing from routine socializing and talking about the weather or anything that doesn't interest me and I get drained if I can't share my thoughts with an audience...so I assume I'm extroverted cognitively, but I'm not really social.
> 
> Without the internet for example and an outlet...I'd go insane alone.
> 
> *Either way I only know my BIG5 and Enneagram type. MBTI and Socionics is just speculation. I have no certainties there.*


Yeah, so I was right it addressed you. I was tired as fuck when I read that so I wasn't sure because it sounded like you, not me.

Anyway, can relate zero to what you wrote. I am not overly found of so energy songs in general with few exceptions, though I would consider this sx/so, not so/sx:






I think the finer nuance between sx/so and so/sx is that sx/so still has this individual self-focus abut how the self thinks about community e.g. it sucks, I love it etc, as opposed to explicitly focusing on community first and its state of nature. Same logic here:






Both perspectives kind of anti-soc. I've written poetry, lyrics and fiction since I was a kid. I have written maybe 2-3 pieces during that time that's about the social state of the world. 

Also, personally, I am not fond of soc first music. It's so in your face and kind of like "hey look at me, we're trying to deliver a message". Thrash metal being a perfect example of this and the trash metal movement is very soc in general I guess, with its focus on politics. It's so grating on my mind for some reason. There's something about the energy that just doesn't jive at all. It's a very different kind of intensity that overall doesn't interest me.



Arienette said:


> I feel the same way towards ephemereality's posts. He's usually very subjective & emotional when debating on these stuff. I believe my latest post was good enough to end the discussion and I could carry on.


Am I? I had the right to be fairly pissed at you because you blatantly misgendered me in public and that pisses me off like nothing else. 

And no, I'm sorry, but it didn't end anything because your analysis was shallow as I mentioned. You draw preliminary conclusions that aren't quite there. Different causes may end up with similar behavior. I can agree with the gist you're getting at but it doesn't mean it necessarily applies to me. You never asked me the question "Why am I on PerC?", nor did you seem to truly ponder this yourself. That answer is going to answer the question about my instincts, not that I am on PerC. That's looking at superficial behavior but not the actual motivation. Is the internet a social community? Yes. There's are songs by one of my favorite bands about this:










My MA program also had this focus and it conceptually I like the idea, but on the question whether I involve myself on the internet for the sake of social community? No, I don't. I involve myself based on personal interest. That points towards sx, not so. So and sx can seem very similar at face value because both seek connections, but one ought to ask what kinds of? That's where the difference lies. A love song doesn't have to be about sx for example:






I also don't take lightly on that you say I am denying or repressing some aspect of myself. I'm not like FreeBeer. There you can perhaps argue that there's repression going on and I think he would admit as much himself to a degree, hence the social phobia etc. I don't suffer from his issues. Again, sometimes what people say actually means exactly what they said.

I don't feel your case actually applies to me, is all. It makes sense superficially but not when you actually study my motivations, for the same reason I don't type as a 6 but a 5. Again, the key questions why I am on the internet. You can't look at the fact that I am on the internet and assume it's because I seek social community because people can be on the internet for several reasons. If anything, you would need to look at what I'm doing while I am on the internet then, since that will answer the question why I'm here.

I'm not taking a stance for or against community. I have been more or less involved mostly because others tend to involve me, but ultimately I come and go because I involve myself with practical goals like I join a guild because I want to raid and feel good about my own accomplishments or I join a fandom community because I love that particular piece of art like Bleach, and I want to be able to discuss it with someone who is as passionate as I am because I care and love for Bleach. That people offer me social positions seems to stem from the fact they recognize me as competent, for good and for bad.


----------



## Sina

Arienette said:


> @_mushr00m_, @_Cosmic Orgasm_, I'll try to get back to you ASAP if I find to have anything valuable to offer! I have many observations of you two (surprise, surprise), but nothing is solid enough to help you reach conclusions, IMO.
> 
> BTW, Boss, you were curious about other doctrines related to the instincts that I mentioned. While I didn't mean all these doctrines are specifically related to the instincts, I actually wrote about one a week ago or so @ the 4 subforum about Ayurveda and how I think it relates to the instincts: http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/172057-mesomorphic-type-4s.html
> 
> It directly connects to this discussion, on false perceptions, both of ourselves & others. Interesting stuff. There are two posts there, don't miss 'em. I couldn't edit it afterwards, Kapha's predominantly Water & Earth.


I'll have a look.

And LOL, as long as it's "solid" enough to form *your* own conclusions or impressions or what have you, that's all that matters. It's what the thread is for. I've heard nearly everything under the sun, and I enjoy it. XD

I am also curious what you have to say about Mushy. @_mushr00m_, through our discussions, I can't see you as anything BUT Sx last. I think So/Sp might be possible.

p.s. Your writing was fuzzy on the "meat" point, so where my post is concerned, you'll get only as much or as little "meat" as you put on the table.


----------



## LibertyPrime

mimesis said:


> @FreeBeer
> 
> You are a photographer do I remember this correctly? How would you describe a walk downtown, in terms of focus?


I live in Romania..I don't really understand what you mean by downtown. Other then that I don't have an external focus, most of the time when I'm "out" I'm actually in my head thinking about things that are not related to my current surroundings.

My focus would be my thoughts with a nice bokeh reality background?

I do photography, am not a photographer yet.


----------



## mushr00m

Arienette said:


> @_mushr00m_, @_Cosmic Orgasm_, I'll try to get back to you ASAP if I find to have anything valuable to offer! I have many observations of you two (surprise, surprise), but nothing is solid enough to help you reach conclusions, IMO.


Hehe! I look forward to hearing your observations muchly! :tongue:



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I'll have a look.
> 
> And LOL, as long as it's "solid" enough to form *your* own conclusions or impressions or what have you, that's all that matters. It's what the thread is for. I've heard nearly everything under the sun, and I enjoy it. XD
> 
> I am also curious what you have to say about Mushy. @_mushr00m_, through our discussions, I can't see you as anything BUT Sx last. I think So/Sp might be possible.


Yeah, I agree on the SX, it's definitely not high from what I know of it. It's not really low either but it's not exactly a huge pull either, in like a, 'I need this now or im gonna shrivel up', lol! It's something that comes round every so often, that urge. I get the impression from others a lot that SX-lasts are the most boring, dry, mediocre, have crap sex-life, don't understand how chemistry works, I just don't relate to that at all except when im depressed. Intimacy is really important though with other partner for example, being strongly in synch yet having our own identities. This stuff gets me everytime. *shrug*


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ephemereality said:


> or I join a fandom community because I love that particular piece of art like Bleach, and I want to be able to discuss it with someone who is as passionate as I am because I care and love for Bleach.


Hmm, that's the sort of reason I'm usually being social too. Like I signed up on PerC (after lurking to see if I could find some more information on the topic) because I wanted to talk about the enneagram with someone and none of my friends were interested. 

But then I come across as sx last, yeah? 

Also, I'm still interested in people's opinion of my type. I guess I don't draw a lot of attention, though? Perhaps I should begin to type as an 8 so people will start calling me out.


----------



## Sina

AHAHAHAHAHAHA~ @_Nonsense_

I, hereby, christen you 8w7-4w5-5w4 sx/sp. Now, with the blessings of the most esteemed President of the 'Witch Hunterz Union', let the hunt begin. My fellow 'bullies' will soon commence attacking your lil mistyped ass, with the 'paranoid aggression' of 10,000 cp6s on crack. You lil lamb offering yourself for slaughter. Your punishment will fit your crime, I assure you. roud:


----------



## KINGoftheAMAZONS

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> AHAHAHAHAHAHA~ @_Nonsense_
> 
> I, hereby, christen you 8w7-4w5-5w4 sx/sp. Now, with the blessings of the most esteemed President of the 'Witch Hunterz Union', let the hunt begin. My fellow 'bullies' will soon commence attacking your lil mistyped ass, with the 'paranoid aggression' of 10,000 cp6s on crack. You lil lamb offering yourself for slaughter. Your punishment will fit your crime, I assure you. roud:


Make sure you go easy on her. It's her first time after all :wink:.


----------



## Sina

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> Make sure you go easy on her. It's her first time after all :wink:.


"We" are the crazed 'cp6' SO dom wolf pack...Us badasses don't go easy on anyone. :angry:

COME AT ME, you fake ass hero complex suffering bitch!!!!!!!! :angry:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> "We" are the crazed 'cp6' SO dom wolf pack...Us badasses don't go easy on anyone. :angry:
> 
> COME AT ME, you fake ass hero complex suffering bitch. :angry:


Welp. Time to become an ATE. roud:


----------



## Entropic

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, that's the sort of reason I'm usually being social too. Like I signed up on PerC (after lurking to see if I could find some more information on the topic) because I wanted to talk about the enneagram with someone and none of my friends were interested.
> 
> But then I come across as sx last, yeah?
> 
> Also, I'm still interested in people's opinion of my type. I guess I don't draw a lot of attention, though? Perhaps I should begin to type as an 8 so people will start calling me out.


Depends on what your interest is. Is it because you can passionately and deeply discuss something you love? Interest can convey different things. an sp type would be because of sp concerns, sx sx concerns, so so concerns etc. I can feel frustrated because I can have a need to want to share my ideas with someone or something. I see it relating to Maitri's sx 5 description though, and being a part of having someone in confidence to share information with.


----------



## mimesis

FreeBeer said:


> I live in Romania..I don't really understand what you mean by downtown. Other then that I don't have an external focus, most of the time when I'm "out" I'm actually in my head thinking about things that are not related to my current surroundings.
> 
> My focus would be my thoughts with a nice bokeh reality background?
> 
> I do photography, am not a photographer yet.



Haha you mean out of focus? 
I live in a city, downtown is the center of the city. I was wondering what catches your attention - as a photographer, or someone who does photography if you will.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ephemereality said:


> Depends on what your interest is. Is it because you can passionately and deeply discuss something you love?


Hmm, I prefer to use the word obsession to describe how I feel about some stuff. Though I don't know how _deep _I am about it ( @_Animal_ how deep would you say I am? =P). Mostly kind of... single-minded? That's the best word I can think of at the moment. 

But with _people _it varies. One thing I notice is that once our interests change, it can be hard to keep the friendship going. ( @_Silveresque_ once said that sounded like a Fe-thing, but I'm not sure how.)


----------



## Animal

@Nonsense.. I think everyone is deep in their own way - but you are certainly not heated, roaring, shoving and pushing about your opinion. I will elaborate when I have time to focus on it. I'll also write up my thoughts on your possible type, when I can, but this week is a bit rushed due to friends being in town so I can't wrap my mind around anything very thoroughly.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> @_Nonsense_.. I think everyone is deep in their own way - but you are certainly not heated, roaring, shoving and pushing about your opinion.


I would say I was more pushy when I was younger, but not in the way you mean, perhaps. Like if I was interested about something I would only talk about that and now I _try _to be more moderate and if I disliked something I made sure to let someone know but now I'm... Hmm, well I think I can still be pretty vocal about these things but I'm not that "heated" no. Less like a fire and more like an addict. Or something.

Edit: Although when I'm thinking about it, I got to wonder why being pushy etc. about your opinion is necessarily an sx-thing. When I acted like that I certainly did not _attract _anyone. No, it's not that I also gained enemies, I simply repulsed everyone because no one gave a fuck... except the ones I wanted to repulse (though I'm not sure even they really gave a fuck). =P At some point I realized my behavior was a little counter-productive.

Edit AGAIN: Whatever my instinctual stacking is, though, I was thinking some more about the topic of being engulfed or whatever. Overall, while the thought of losing my sense of self in any way is rather creepy, it's not something I actively fear, since I don't see myself losing it that easily. I think my worry in a relationship is more about control, in that caring a lot about another person gives them a lot of power over me emotionally, because it always feels like I care so much more than the other person. (I say, even though I've never been in a romantic relationship... but that's how it has often felt in friendships, anyway.) And it feels pretty pathetic as well, so perhaps I might act more aloof than I am.^^;


----------



## LibertyPrime

mimesis said:


> Haha you mean out of focus?
> I live in a city, downtown is the center of the city. I was wondering what catches your attention - as a photographer, or someone who does photography if you will.


Hmm, mostly it would have to be the people, but not as a whole. Snapshots of people living their lives. Everyone has a story to tell and it would be awesome to capture those moments.


----------



## Inguz

FreeBeer said:


> Hmm, mostly it would have to be the people, but not as a whole. Snapshots of people living their lives. Everyone has a story to tell and it would be awesome to capture those moments.


1-fix. Otherwise I agree 100% with the rest of your typology typings.


----------



## LibertyPrime

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> "We" are the crazed 'cp6' SO dom wolf pack...Us badasses don't go easy on anyone. :angry:
> 
> COME AT ME, you fake ass hero complex suffering bitch!!!!!!!! :angry:


*raises hand in objection*... o.o some of us wolf puppehs think we are more phobic then CP. Yessir, me no CP.

...crap I have dead space on the mind...need to get rid of it before I go to sleep and have some nightmare about turning into a necromorph :S.



Inguz said:


> 1-fix. Otherwise I agree 100% with the rest of your typology typings.


aaaaa....I'd agree. Can't really tell which one it is. How to tell difference lol?


----------



## Inguz

FreeBeer said:


> aaaaa....I'd agree. Can't really tell which one it is. How to tell difference lol?


1 fix has a more 'lecturing' anger, perhaps?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

FreeBeer said:


> *raises hand in objection*... o.o some of us wolf puppehs think we are more phobic then CP. Yessir, me no CP.


I thought you were a CP. :laughing:

Also, according to your avatar you look more like a cat.


----------



## Choice

Hello. Haven't read through the bulk of this yet, but if anyone has too much free time, I'm running on 7w8-8w9-4w3

The last 2 are dubious at best ...+ order?

(last questionnaire I filled out contained too many of my inappropriate conclusions to one-off examples iirc, ignore it completely if possible.)


----------



## Chesire Tower

FreeBeer said:


> Hmm, mostly it would have to be the people, but not as a whole. Snapshots of people living their lives. Everyone has a story to tell and it would be awesome to capture those moments.


Definitely So first.


----------



## mimesis

FreeBeer said:


> Hmm, mostly it would have to be the people, but not as a whole. Snapshots of people living their lives. Everyone has a story to tell and it would be awesome to capture those moments.


I see, a bit like the Social Documentary genre? (example)


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Choice said:


> Hello. Haven't read through the bulk of this yet, but if anyone has too much free time, I'm running on 7w8-8w9-4w3
> The last 2 are dubious at best ...+ order?
> (last questionnaire I filled out contained too many of my inappropriate conclusions to one-off examples iirc, ignore it completely if possible.)


you strike me as 9 fixed. you're much more gentle and mellow than any 8 fixed 7w8 I've ever come across. maybe 7w8>9w8>4w3 Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx
alternatively, I could see 7w6 for the same reason.


----------



## Arya

mimesis said:


> Haha you mean out of focus?
> I live in a city, downtown is the center of the city. I was wondering what catches your attention - as a photographer, or someone who does photography if you will.


Can you figure out someone's instincts from what they choose to photograph?? If that's what you're trying to do anyways. I was just thinking that the only thing my photography might show is the fact that I have Ne, since I walk around noticing patterns everywhere.


----------



## Disfigurine

For the longest time I identified with the tritype 4w5 5w4 9w8 sp/sx
but I think that was more of an ideal type and less of a reality so feel free to be brutally honest and keep in mind I'm probably unhealthy whatever type I am (so I might look more like whatever disintegration I've fallen under).

BUT I don't really post much anymore so I understand it might not be relevant. 

Okay I'm gonna browse through this thread now.


----------



## Animal

@The Scorched Earth

I have no opinion on your type. However, your signature, 

"Without mercy, man is like a beast."

^ This is very Sx-1.


----------



## mimesis

Arya said:


> Can you figure out someone's instincts from what they choose to photograph?? If that's what you're trying to do anyways. I was just thinking that the only thing my photography might show is the fact that I have Ne, since I walk around noticing patterns everywhere.


I wouldn't say that's necessarily evident or evidence, no. I was curious, also since @FreeBeer said he 'lacks stereotypical So-ness' and I remembered he had a passion for photography. And it does support seem to support stacking in this case.


----------



## Sina

@_FreeBeer_ 




FreeBeer said:


> *From personal experience:*
> 
> A 1 fix manifests in unwanted self control and difficulties loosening up, idealism, irritation with other people's incompetence at times, severe self criticism at times, fear of failing or not doing it well enough, righteous fury that feels liberating and empowering, a more controlled and focused reactivity, a need to be a "good person", moderate perfectionism, also in many shoulds and have to-s.
> 
> I might be a 6 and I may run on anxiety, but when I see injustice I turn into this aggressive focused unstoppable worst enemy anyone could have and I'm tenacious as fuck for very long periods of time! "You mess with the bull, you get the horns!" is true of 8s, but mess with the wolf and he will run you down, outlast you and crush you  is true of me. I despise injustice!
> 
> ^^ relate? @_Boss_




Quote from my typing thread I remembered (yes, I have an insane memory and remembered what page it was on lol). Might give you some perspective. I think you have a 1 fix, as well.


----------



## Coburn

@TreasureTower

Thanks for the style compliment. I tend to be more relaxed in my writing on the enneagram forum. If you check out my posts in the ESTJ forum, you'll see I alternate between blunt and fluid depending on my mood and the context. 

Also, it makes me happy to be described as "easy going and curious." XD


----------



## Chesire Tower

Marlowe said:


> @TreasureTower
> 
> Thanks for the style compliment. I tend to be more relaxed in my writing on the enneagram forum. If you check out my posts in the ESTJ forum, you'll see I alternate between blunt and fluid depending on my mood and the context.
> 
> Also, it makes me happy to be described as "easy going and curious." XD


Well, you know yourself best but ESTJs are judging types and many of your posts have a definite perceptive feel to them. They just seem more Ti-Fe than Te-Fi to me.

At any rate, if you are in fact, an ESTJ; you are probably hands down, one of the nicest ones I've ever had the pleasure to encounter.


----------



## Coburn

TreasureTower said:


> Well, you know yourself best but ESTJs are judging types and many of your posts have a definite perceptive feel to them. They just seem more Ti-Fe than Te-Fi to me.
> 
> At any rate, if you are in fact, an ESTJ; you are probably hands down, one of the nicest ones I've ever had the pleasure to encounter.



Awww, now you're just making me blush.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Marlowe said:


> Awww, now you're just making me blush.


:kitteh:


The Fe police should be along shortly to read me the riot act. =XD


----------



## The Messenger

@Cosmic Orgasm, prepare thyself for a bunch of speculations based on numerous crazy-ass hypothesis to your heart's desire. :3

How I see you around this place is that you're heavily fragmented & versatile to the point of confusing everyone around about your multifaceted nature, which is truly diverse. As I see it, you have a clear connection between forum Interaction aka Communication via Networking & Expression of the Self via Pleasure which comes off as Playful Banter. It's like communicating around here gets two major segments: The 'time-out' is like playing with your brothers & sisters, while the main reason for being here which is the theories gives you a 'Lets get serious, cut the crap' stance, which relates to your core. Sometimes you mingle both, it's unavoidable, it's dependable on the subject & people involved and so how much energy is given to both areas.

Now, as for the instincts, I personally believe in the presence of the Instinctual Flow & its connection to the tritype, meaning that each fix got a life of its own according to the flow, while still connected to everything else. You come across as an Sx 7 here by others, but in reality even a Social orientation could be argued since you are totally in the zone when it comes to the members & orientating yourself between them. You know what's going on and it's of your interest, even if you don't intentionally track it down. Assuming how I see you is as you see yourself, as a 378 Sp/Sx, is correct, that means that your Playful Banter/Playing with the bro's & sis 7ish approach is affected by an So7 orientation. That Sx slant you are given is related to that 'Self-Expression' Orientation I was talking about. It's a Raw energy, Childlike, Dramatic, Inhibited, Purely fun & soothing energy which can't come across as anything else. It's the kind of energy you find in the arts, in your love of poetry & literature, which is a form of communication & self-expression aswell. This energy could be spent in many a ways, and while you find it as deep & emotionally/mentally stimulating in the arts at the library, here it's the recess at the playground.

YOU HAD YOUR TURN NOW IT'S @mushr00m's. NO. BOSS... STOP PUSHING OR I'LL SEND YOU TO THE PRINCIPLE'S OFFICE. DID YOU JUST TRIPLE FINGERED ME?

There's something about you that still baffles me, mushy mush mush. When you first got here, and made your first type-me thread, it was a time that there was a reality show on TV (previous guilty pleasure) with a social activist who's also a dramatic actor. He was extremely opinionated, and the level of expressiveness he had was really quite a combination. He made his activism into art. Reading your answers, I saw him in you. That's how I perceived you back then. Even the responses later conquered with my perception; if I'm not mistaken you were complimented by Boss on the interesting answers, and you were suggested 4 & 6 fixes, atleast these I remember of. But what happened next was odd, and that I can't explain. You completely transformed. Not sure if it was my own false perception of you back at the time or that you really took a different approach around here. Suddenly you became much more... nonchalant, 'one of the guys', expressing yourself in a more... feminine ways you may call it. You downsized yourself, I can't really put it into words. More gentle & kind, modest, easy-going. And the weird thing is that despite all that I still find you to be 6 & 4 fixed. 1/9 is a mystery. As for the instincts, you were curious mainly about that but sadly I don't have anything concrete as I find you to be all over the place. What I can say though is that if you're a Social subtype, Sx is last. If you're Sp-dom, then more details must be gathered, since I personally see you having both clear So & Sx flavours, and it might just well be the case. When dealing with such close matches, you need a magnifying glass to separate between the layers.


----------



## kaleidoscope

@Arienette

I want attention too! :blushed:

Seriously loving this, and I can totally see why you'd consider So secondary or primary for @Cosmic Orgasm. We discussed it before many times, and I still think there's this huge awareness of what's going on in the PerC community, and always being up to date on the latest happenings that *could *be explained by the 3 fix, but I don't know. But it's also important to remember that PerC is itself a very SOC-oriented place, so I don't know how telling that would be.


----------



## Chesire Tower

kaleidoscope said:


> @Arienette
> 
> I want attention too! :blushed:


 @Arienette, I second that; me too, please!


----------



## audrey551

People say I'm 9 but I'm leaning towards 6 (avoidant/phobic/sp). I'm also feeling very 4ish these days - self-loathing, putrid feeling in my gut, everybody else is a complete human being while there's always something missing in me...

People tried to help me with my type here, but I just don't know.


----------



## Sina

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Arienette_
> 
> I want attention too! :blushed:
> 
> Seriously loving this, and I can totally see why you'd consider So secondary or primary for @_Cosmic Orgasm_. We discussed it before many times, and I still think there's this huge awareness of what's going on in the PerC community, and always being up to date on the latest happenings that *could *be explained by the 3 fix, but I don't know. But it's also important to remember that PerC is itself a very SOC-oriented place, so I don't know how telling that would be.


roud: I'll write back in a bit!


----------



## The Messenger

People, people... Chillax! attenshun isn't cheap nowadays 

@_kaleidoscope_

*warming engines* *:3
* 
@_Cosmic Orgasm_

Just to make it clear: I didn't type you as a core Social 7. I see you as an Sp/Sx 378, which is your 'holistic' ego-self that is probably much more pronounced outside this forum in your major areas in life, while your perceived Sx 7 orientation in PerC is affected by your secondary 7 fix, which as I see it is affected by the Social instinct.

That could, perhaps, shatter another stereotype concerning 3s. My older brother is an So/Sx 3w4, 361. He's one of the most self-aware & genuine people I ever met, despite his slickness & god complex. He knows how to play his cards, he knows how to divide his image, how & when to pour his energies in the right way. He knows how to act in different outlets. Over-serious here, over-childish there. If you'd meet him you may think he's superficial, hedonistic & too bombastic, but then he'll head back home and delve into Maimonides & Judaism literature, reading a 1K pages book about the different manifestation of the soul & connect it with the strings theory, reflect on his ego fixations, meditate, you name it. He's quite an inspiration. It took him years to master his social awareness & how he's been seen by others, as double image Soc-dom isn't an easy job when it comes to screening others' perceptions & reactions towards us, I should know. It really couldn't get more competent than that.

I think you're the same, Boss. Acting in a certain way around this place not saying too much about you. You shared yourself countless times so we get a glimpse into your life, but eventually, reading about & living with are totally different things. We could only imagine. Hence, I think you're just the kind of the non-stereotypical, highly self-aware & honest 3s out there.

*IMO.*


----------



## Sina

great stuff @_Arienette_

lots to chew on. will write back to you. also, i know you didn't type me as a So dom. tho it wouldn't have been a silly suggestion or anything. =)


----------



## Animal

Flatlander said:


> I considered 4 too. =P And also 1, for a minute.
> 
> I am none of these types, but I certainly felt frustrated enough.


----------



## Chesire Tower

If ANYONE has any possible arguments and/or questions for me (about) being a 5,4 or 7; *please I beg of you*, give me your arguments and vote in my poll or just post it in this thread. Same difference. :kitteh:

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/173204-5-4-7-a.html


Even though, I sincerely doubt that I am a 2; I would also be open to arguments for that as well.



Thank you for your time; you will be handsomely rewarded on tax day

. . .

:wink:


----------



## 0+n*1

I could be wrong but I think that the more repulsed you're to the idea of being inconsistent or incongruent or inauthentic because you're changing types every sunset and you seem, to your disgrace, to never show any signal of certainty about something you think you should know and more because you put a lot of time and effort on it, to the point of controlling those impulses by trying harder to burn your brains out to figure the fuck out of it, talks a lot about how important it is for you to strive for that kind of perfection. Or I am just projecting myself.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Mr.Rbtoo said:


> I could be wrong but . . . ][ . . .]Or I am just projecting myself.


Who are you talking to?


----------



## 0+n*1

TreasureTower said:


> Who are you talking to?


FreeBeer, but I decided against it because I realized I was projecting myself. I think this is a way 1 could appear in me (even if 6 has a lot to do with it). I left it for people to relate to it if they do or for them to add on subjective impressions on the subject.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Animal said:


> @_The Scorched Earth_
> 
> I have no opinion on your type. However, your signature,
> 
> "Without mercy, man is like a beast."
> 
> ^ This is very Sx-1.


I got that from this old Japanese film called Sansho the Bailiff. Actually that movie is about, among other things, endurance. Specifically endurance while being enslaved.


----------



## Recede

Nonsense said:


> But with _people _it varies. One thing I notice is that once our interests change, it can be hard to keep the friendship going. ( @_Silveresque_ once said that sounded like a Fe-thing, but I'm not sure how.)


Huh? When did I say that?


----------



## Kabosu

Wondering if I could really be SEI in socionics.


----------



## heavydirtysoul

I love the idea. :wink: Is there anyone who could offer some thoughts on the validity of my tritype?


----------



## Word Dispenser

Consent given-- See my brand spankin' new typin' thread for deh-tail.


----------



## Paradigm

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> You're right. You're not a 1. XD
> :kitteh:


LOL so true. Almost wish I was, though :wink:



Flatlander said:


> I know the feeling. I was going nuts with frustration last weekend being jammed in a tight seat in the car with family for a two day drive, and I'm just now calming down from it for real. Superficially it looked kind of like a 7-1 disintegration? or a 4 fix?, and my frustration became poignant enough at points to make me ask myself if I'm really some frustration type in disguise, but I don't think it's correct, or that I can attribute it to any frustration type fix. Holidays and my particular family dynamic are just fuckin' frustrating because they're hypercritical as a group, wanting to help me get over things they see as humps in my life, and I'm avoidant, because no amount of explaining myself will make them stop, and I don't want to join in their group dynamic. They don't see me for awhile and suddenly everything I do stands out in relief for them to pick at.


Yeah, that's the thing. Everyone has these moments or situations where you're not really "yourself," and sometimes they can last for quite a while. It's useful to explore why you (general you) become that way during these situations and if it's related to your type, but one has to remember that it may not be. I suspect a lot of people forget that there's a ton of mundane / non-typology reasons why they react a certain way. For example, I react strongly to being misunderstood, and while I could pin that on being 4-fixed, it's also (among other reasons) because I've gotten in trouble more than once for things people have assumed I've said.

Sorry to hear about your family being annoying


----------



## Figure

Paradigm said:


> The holidays have been making feel super 4ish for the past few years. It's mostly because family gatherings are much more often and it takes a lot out of me when I'm in a group. Of my family, I'm certainly accepted but rarely _listened_ to, which makes feel somewhat alienated.
> 
> While I never considered an image core for myself, I thought this could possibly indicate being core 1 with its connection to 4. But nah, it's likely from more mundane reasons like experience, depression, and stress, along with a 4 fix.



You (also) have a double Superego, and two frustration types.



@_Cosmic Orgasm_ 

I still owe you a justification as to why you are not a _core_ 7, let alone 7w8 - and not merely to humor you. It's coming, but I also want it to be good


----------



## Sina

Figure said:


> You (also) have a double Superego, and two frustration types.
> 
> 
> 
> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> 
> I still owe you a justification as to why you are not a _core_ 7, let alone 7w8 - and not merely to humor you. It's coming, but I also want it to be good


lolz @ let alone 7w8 :laughing:

Oh you better make it good.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Silveresque said:


> Huh? When did I say that?


Oh, on Skype once. Damn, I should have asked you back then.


----------



## suicidal_orange

How do I go about getting "known" enough to be called out on my mistype? I guess it would help if I assigned myself a type I'm clearly not and went round spreading misinformation about that type, but given that people will read and believe it that doesn't seem like a good route to go down.


----------



## MNiS

suicidal_orange said:


> How do I go about getting "known" enough to be called out on my mistype? I guess it would help if I assigned myself a type I'm clearly not and went round spreading misinformation about that type, but given that people will read and believe it that doesn't seem like a good route to go down.


On this forum, I wouldn't bother.


----------



## suicidal_orange

MNiS said:


> On this forum, I wouldn't bother.


Not what I was expecting from someone who's spent a lot of time here but as good an answer as any - where do you suggest I go?


----------



## MNiS

suicidal_orange said:


> Not what I was expecting from someone who's spent a lot of time here but as good an answer as any - where do you suggest I go?


Just type yourself correctly and take pride in being superior than the other idiots who can't even figure themselves out or don't even know what they're doing as practitioners.


----------



## Animal

suicidal_orange said:


> How do I go about getting "known" enough to be called out on my mistype? I guess it would help if I assigned myself a type I'm clearly not and went round spreading misinformation about that type, but given that people will read and believe it that doesn't seem like a good route to go down.


It's their own fault if they believe what strangers write on a public forum and interpret that as 'information.' Really..



MNiS said:


> Just type yourself correctly and take pride in being superior than the other idiots who can't even figure themselves out or don't even know what they're doing as practitioners.


It's not about being superior. Typing yourself can be a complicated process, because you can't see the forest through the trees. Of course, there is no person on this site or any other who is going to be the ultimate source, and will be right every time. But sometimes, people provide insights about your character which you genuinely did not think of before.

It's really not about the number. It doesn't matter if people "believe" my self-typing or not, or whether they disagree with it or not. But having debates about this can provide insight into how I come off to others, patterns in myself that I might be missing because it's too close to home and I'm used to it, or simply, asking questions that force me to put something into words, which helps me to see through *myself* even if the other person doesn't understand my response.

That's why, in my opinion, having a forum environment can be educational. Of course, it's potentially problematic for those who are going to have a conniption over every type suggestion and drive themselves insane over every opinion, but that is not necessarily the same as asking for input and opinions for your own benefit.


----------



## MNiS

I'm no longer interested in cop-outs and apologetic rationalizations. So I hope you'll understand if I didn't read a word you wrote.


----------



## Animal

Arya said:


> they think they're right.


Think? 1s _know_ they're right. 1s are always right! 

This is why my 1w9 mother drives my 7w8 father crazy


----------



## Arya

Animal said:


> Think? 1s _know_ they're right. 1s are always right!
> 
> This is why my 1w9 mother drives my 7w8 father crazy


You can tell I'm a cerebral person and an INTP by my word choices.  I've gotten into enough arguments with type ones before to know all about that.... It generally ended badly with the type one getting into a rage and then shutting off the conversation, because she couldn't stand her own rage.


----------



## Animal

Arya said:


> You can tell I'm a cerebral person and an INTP by my word choices.  I've gotten into enough arguments with type ones before to know all about that.... It generally ended badly with the type one getting into a rage and then shutting off the conversation, because she couldn't stand her own rage.


My arguments with my mom go like this, if I'm in a good mood:

Her: You didn't do X! 
Me: You're right, I didn't.
Her: You should have done Y! 
Me: Too late.
Her: Why didn't you do Z?
Me: Because I'm a fuck up
Her: I told you, you HAVE to do Z or else abcdefg!!!
Me: Yup, I remember the lecture.
Her: So when are you gong to - 
Me: I will do it when I do it. If that's not good enough you don't have to talk to me ever again.
Her: Huffffff

If I'm in a bad mood:
Her: You didn't-
Me: WTF are you doing in my house!!! Leave the list of everything I didn't do or should have done under the door and go home!


----------



## Arya

Animal said:


> My arguments with my mom go like this, if I'm in a good mood:
> 
> Her: You didn't do X!
> Me: You're right, I didn't.
> Her: You should have done Y!
> Me: Too late.
> Her: Why didn't you do Z?
> Me: Because I'm a fuck up
> Her: I told you, you HAVE to do Z or else abcdefg!!!
> Me: Yup, I remember the lecture.
> Her: So when are you gong to -
> Me: I will do whatever I want when I want to do it. If that's not good enough you don't have to talk to me ever again.
> Her: Huffffff
> 
> If I'm in a bad mood:
> Her: You didn't-
> Me: Go away and let me work! WTF are you doing in my house anyway!!! Go home! You're so damn annoying!


haha. I love type ones though. They'll happily try to murder anyone who tries to hurt you.


----------



## Animal

Arya said:


> haha. I love type ones though. They'll happily try to murder anyone who tries to hurt you.


Don't get me wrong. My mom is amazing. If I could be half of the strong, fierce, genuine, brilliant, nurturing, protective, organized, beautiful woman that she is... I would be lucky. But my 6w5 brother inherited most of those qualities. I take after my wild father.


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> Don't get me wrong. My mom is amazing. If I could be half of the strong, fierce, genuine, brilliant, nurturing, protective, organized, beautiful woman that she is... I would be lucky. But my 6w5 brother inherited most of those qualities. I take after my wild father.


And, she's gorgeous. I've had an overload of sexy ass Ones recently. :blushed:


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> And, she's gorgeous. I've had an overload of sexy ass Ones recently. :blushed:


It's kind of ridiculous how gorgeous my mother is. :kitteh: Only a 1 could be so perfect in her late 60s. And yeah, I'm kind of on sexy-ass 1 overload myself lately, as you know..  *heart throb throb*


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> It's kind of ridiculous how gorgeous my mother is. :kitteh: Only a 1 could be so perfect in her late 60s. And yeah, I'm kind of on sexy-ass 1 overload myself lately, as you know..  *heart throb throb*


She is stunning. 

And, don't remind me of sexy - ass and One all in one sentence. :blushed: It brings back a flood of memories...Mmmm...all that Type 1 force and discipline...all that beastly loss of restraint in certain contexts.  Like a caged animal set free. *fans self*

You're right..both of us have been OD'ing on Sexy 1s recently. :laughing:


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> She is stunning.
> 
> And, don't remind me of sexy - ass and One all in one sentence. :blushed: It brings back a flood of memories...Mmmm...all that Type 1 force and discipline...all that beastly loss of restraint in certain contexts.  Like a caged animal set free. *fans self*
> 
> You're right..both of us have been OD'ing on Sexy 1s recently. :laughing:


----------



## Figure

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> She is stunning.
> 
> And, don't remind me of sexy - ass and One all in one sentence. :blushed: It brings back a flood of memories...Mmmm...all that Type 1 force and discipline...all that beastly loss of restraint in certain contexts.  Like a caged animal set free. *fans self*
> 
> You're right..both of us have been OD'ing on Sexy 1s recently. :laughing:


Sandra Maitri thinks we are bad in bed. Don't idealize


----------



## Sina

Figure said:


> Sandra Maitri thinks we are bad in bed. Don't idealize


Fuck her and Fuck 'idealizing' :laughing: 
She needs to be held down and fucked into oblivion by someOne who knows what they're doing. waitwhat..:laughing: XD

I have fucked far too many 1s to know that's bullshit. Mwaahahaha! LMAO I know some crazy as fuck kinky ass Ones who have corrupted me for life with their sex fiend-ness. :crying: Who would've thought? *sighs* Animal...I am right here with you on that, gurl. *phew*


Okay lolz, on a more serious note, I need to find a better representation of Sexy One-ness @_Animal_. And, I sure hope to be as sexy your mama when I am old and spry. roud: I might tear a page or two out of her book. You're also quite right when you say that it's not so much 1s think they are right as much as they "know" they are right. A certain 1 (you know who) lectures my ass daily and never backs down. It only makes me respect and adore her more.


----------



## 0+n*1

I finally answered that questionnaire and I'm pleased with the results. 

My socionics type me questionnaire

And as I promised, my enneagram type me questionnaire

@_Flatlander, thanks in advance_


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Fuck her and Fuck 'idealizing' :laughing:
> She needs to be held down and fucked into oblivion by someOne who knows what they're doing. waitwhat..:laughing: XD


My first thought was to wonder if she's speaking from experience. 

My other thought is to wonder where Maitri talked about what the types are like in bed. >_>


----------



## Animal

Nonsense said:


> My first thought was to wonder if she's speaking from experience.
> 
> My other thought is to wonder where Maitri talked about what the types are like in bed. >_>


Let me know which one she says is the best in bed. I will hastily change my type-label to that type, and defend my typing with my blood, sweat and tears!!! :angry:


----------



## Sina

Nonsense said:


> My first thought was to wonder if she's speaking from experience.
> 
> My other thought is to wonder where Maitri talked about what the types are like in bed. >_>


I was facetiously responding to @Figure. I don't think she talks about that anywhere LOFL.


----------



## Figure

Animal said:


> Let me know which one she says is the best in bed. I will hastily change my type-label to that type, and defend my typing with my blood, sweat and tears!!! :angry:


Unfortunately for you, that's probably type 7, though Maitri doesn't say that. She does say, for 1:

"There is a self-denying, self-punishing, or self-castigating and penitent quality about a One's sexual inhibition and restraint. As a result, a One's sexuality remains largely unintegrated, remaining crude, raw, juvenile, and often awkward. It often rertains the feel of a schoolboy or schoolgirl doing something very lewd and nasty that they seem not too familiar with but are nonetheless tantalized by." (122)

Well fuck you Sandra. You're just as bad as PerC.


----------



## Animal

Figure said:


> Unfortunately for you, that's probably type 7, though Maitri doesn't say that.


7s are better in bed than 2s?? 



> She does say, for 1:
> "There is a self-denying, self-punishing, or self-castigating and penitent quality about a One's sexual inhibition and restraint. As a result, a One's sexuality remains largely unintegrated, remaining crude, raw, juvenile, and often awkward. It often rertains the feel of a schoolboy or schoolgirl doing something very lewd and nasty that they seem not too familiar with but are nonetheless tantalized by." (122)
> 
> Well fuck you Sandra. You're just as bad as PerC.


I will leave it to @Cosmic Orgasm to respond to this portion.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Figure said:


> Unfortunately for you, that's probably type 7, though Maitri doesn't say that. She does say, for 1:
> 
> "There is a self-denying, self-punishing, or self-castigating and penitent quality about a One's sexual inhibition and restraint. As a result, a One's sexuality remains largely unintegrated, remaining crude, raw, juvenile, and often awkward. It often rertains the feel of a schoolboy or schoolgirl doing something very lewd and nasty that they seem not too familiar with but are nonetheless tantalized by." (122)


Well... Some might find that appealing too.


----------



## Figure

Nonsense said:


> Well... Some might find that appealing too.


I'm not sure that anyone here _agrees _with it. But it was a funny comment XD


----------



## Entropic

Figure said:


> Unfortunately for you, that's probably type 7, though Maitri doesn't say that. She does say, for 1:
> 
> "There is a self-denying, self-punishing, or self-castigating and penitent quality about a One's sexual inhibition and restraint. As a result, a One's sexuality remains largely unintegrated, remaining crude, raw, juvenile, and often awkward. It often rertains the feel of a schoolboy or schoolgirl doing something very lewd and nasty that they seem not too familiar with but are nonetheless tantalized by." (122)
> 
> Well fuck you Sandra. You're just as bad as PerC.


Well, I can see where she's coming from. I can see why some 1s think that way, for example @Blue Flare or @vergil @Alecto @moira I don't know your current username so I am going with whatever and see if it works lol. If I accidentally summoned someone else I apologize <_< 

Though to be quite honest, it equally applies to 5s if not more, because denying that aspect of oneself in the 5 is denying the id connections that shape the core logic of 5. So I assume it's just that push-pull mechanic really. Either one indulges completely or not at all. There's nothing really inbetween.


----------



## Sina

The Scorched Earth said:


> Sigh, maybe I'm really a 5 in denial.


If One is your actual type now as opposed to a jokey label change Cosmic Orgasm style, you'd know that I agree with your typing. 

Again, 1w9-4w5-5w4 Sx/So or Sx/Sp



Figure said:


> Oh, _now _I see why you wrote that. I hadn't realized you were actually trying to defend Riso.
> 
> His chapter on Sixes is miserable, as you yourself have said before. And no, I don't appreciate his relationship descriptions. Do _you_​?


Hell, I love that man. 

I appreciate every word he has ever uttered. Whatchu talkin about? If he's dead or about to die soon, I'd love to do things to his exhumed corpse. :blushed: Dem 4s and 5s love all shit macabre and dark. roud:

And, then I'd write my own relationship descriptions starting with his typing and mine.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> If One is your actual type now as opposed to a jokey label change Cosmic Orgasm style, you'd know that I agree with your typing.
> 
> Again, 1w9-4w5-5w4 Sx/So or Sx/Sp


For sure, those are the Top 3. What the core is depends on my mood, among other things.


----------



## Figure

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Hell, I love that man.
> 
> I appreciate every word he has ever uttered. Whatchu talkin about? If he's dead or about to die soon, I'd love to do things to his exhumed corpse. :blushed: Dem 4s and 5s love all shit macabre and dark. roud:
> 
> And, then I'd write my own relationship descriptions starting with his typing and mine.


I don't understand how.....you go from moments of incredible insight, to moments like these.


----------



## Sina

Figure said:


> I don't understand how.....you go from moments of incredible insight, to moments like these.


Enigma roud:


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Enigma roud:


----------



## 0+n*1

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> .. If he's dead or about to die soon, I'd love to do things to his exhumed corpse...


He's dead (two years ago)


----------



## Figure

^
|


Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Enigma roud:



HA well there you have it, your time has come. Better get your crap together and start writing a real description of how your relationship would have panned out had he been alive. Pressure, pressure. I don't think you'll do it.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I'm looking forward to it. roud:


----------



## Kisshoten

Wow.. I can't believe myself. XD

I just came back coz I had notifications and only NOW did I pay attention to the thread title. 

I approve! 

Jabs are welcome. Though, I believe most people are pretty convinced. The top contenders for my type are 3 and 6 (by popular opinion). I'd nominate a 4 over 3 or 6 any day. But yeah, 1 seems to be about the best fit there is.


----------



## suicidal_orange

I guess I should post here now that I've settled on a type for a couple of days - I'm going with 4 6 and 1, wings to be determined later. 
Feel free to tell me I'm wrong :laughing:


----------



## idoh

hi... an experienced member on this other enneagram forum told me i was a close call between 6w7 (what i had before) and 9w8, but more 9w8, so that's what i'll go with. i could go either way, but i'm usually more calm than worried :happy: it matches me really well too


----------



## DomNapoleon

I would like to listen from @Animal :kitteh:
How would you type me? (tritype/instincts/mbti)


----------



## Inveniet

Well I've struggled with Enneagram for a while now.
Probably as good a time as any to get a little feedback.
So anyone feel up for it, *hit me*, let me know what you think.
Wings, instincts, tritype, whatever you think you've got.
I think I'm for once is in a place where I can handle a little scrutiny.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Out of curiosity, just how melancholy can a Type 1 get? I have an unshakable preference for sad/serious/"depressing" things, but 1's still have a connection to 7, right?


----------



## Sina

The Scorched Earth said:


> Out of curiosity, just how melancholy can a Type 1 get? I have an unshakable preference for sad/serious/"depressing" things, but 1's still have a connection to 7, right?


Extremely so. They also disintegrate to 4 (or have a line to 4 so to speak), as I am sure you'd know. The one we've talked about was quite unshakably into death, decay, the dark and grotesque. He had a melancholic bent. This isn't to say he wasn't charming or didn't have a sense of humour, but he definitely had a preference for this, and it not only showed in his personality but also in his poetry, art and more, going all the way back to his teens. 

Out of curiosity, how would you type me? 
@_kaleidoscope_ and @_Arienette_

I'll get back to you guys, soon .


----------



## Animal

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> I would like to listen from @_Animal_ :kitteh:
> How would you type me? (tritype/instincts/mbti)


I have thought about this loosely for a few days now since you asked. I am inclined to say you're correctly typed, but I have been busy/ not on perc much so.. I will mull it over some more and give a longer explanation as soon as I can.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Extremely so. They also disintegrate to 4 (or have a line to 4 so to speak), as I am sure you'd know. The one we've talked about was quite unshakably into death, decay, the dark and grotesque. He had a melancholic bent. This isn't to say he wasn't charming or didn't have a sense of humour, but he definitely had a preference for this, and it not only showed in his personality but also in his poetry, art and more, going all the way back to his teens.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how would you type me?


3w4 sounds right. 6 and 8 would be feasible also.


----------



## Sina

The Scorched Earth said:


> 3w4 sounds right. 6 and 8 would be feasible also.


Would you like to make a brief (or not, it's up to you) case for 6 and 8?


----------



## Figure

The Scorched Earth said:


> Out of curiosity, just how melancholy can a Type 1 get? I have an unshakable preference for sad/serious/"depressing" things, but 1's still have a connection to 7, right?


Yeesh, very. 

It's a marked change from the usual though. I spend most of my time straightening logical spaghetti, but every once in awhile there's a very specific word or phrase in a song that causes me to cave in, or some mental photo I take on the fly that comes to metaphorize something I've felt for a long time but not allowed myself to indulge in. I actually keep a private journal of these verbal "images," knowing that at some point they can be honed to better capture the essence of what I was feeling later - I always return to them when I "feel." A lot of it has to do with childhood - looking at pictures of the eccentric, wacky kid I was, where I am now (flawed), and why it's that way. 

They key, though, is that I view it as an indulgence. Ultimately it must be released, not "enjoyed." As soon as it's released, my thoughts directly go to "well, that's better, I can't believe I actually did that." It isn't so much an ongoing feeling as much as it is a reaction to certain points in our search for the "Brilliance" Maitri describes. In other words, it's _compartmentalized _to a time, place, and reason.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Would you like to make a brief (or not, it's up to you) case for 6 and 8?


The 6 might be because you seem pretty concerned and collaborative, like 6's usually are when they're healthy. 8, because the tone of many of your posts comes off kinda lusty.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_NK_
> 2w1>7>8 doesn't really work for you imo
> - you're much more cerebral and analytical than a 2. 2s are heart>gut>head
> - 278 is just about the _least_ intellectual tritype on the entire enneagram
> - Sexual 2s (particular Sexual 2<7<8s) are the seductive, femme fatales of the Enneagram (think Marilyn Monroe or perhaps Casanova)
> - 278s come off more smooth, social, part of the "in" crowd they often come off a bit like frat boys/soro girls (think Regina George from Mean Girls or Phil from The Hangover). you, on the other hand come off endearly quirky and eclectic. more like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see 6w7/7w6>2w1>1w? for your type (Sx/So sounds about right. So/Sx is possible)


Hmm, I don't know NK, but why _can't _a type 2 be the way you described? Type 2 is known as the most seductive type (particularly the sexual subtype, understandably enough), but... there are many ways to seduce. :tongue:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Nonsense
2's seductiveness is much more deliberate and typically more extroverted. the lovable dork archetype is much more head center


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Nonsense_
> 2's seductiveness is much more deliberate and typically more extroverted. the lovable dork archetype is much more head center


I know it doesn't fit the _archetype, _but why can't type 2 use a less archetypical way to seduce? Especially since I'm sure there _are _those who find "lovable dorks" more attractive than the smoldering femme fatale. I mean, basically type 2 is an image and a power type, and I would not underestimate the power of a more quirky or innocent image. 

(Like I said, though, I don't know @NK, so I'm not saying it's necessarily an image for her... Oh, it looks like she retired.)


----------



## Animal

Nonsense said:


> I know it doesn't fit the _archetype, _but why can't type 2 use a less archetypical way to seduce? Especially since I'm sure there _are _those who find "lovable dorks" more attractive than the smoldering femme fatale. I mean, basically type 2 is an image and a power type, and I would not underestimate the power of a more quirky or innocent image.


Very good point in general.

2s are image types and power types. They will take on the archetype that they feel will be seen as 'special' because in this day and age, 'special' is 'attractive.' Most men want to marry the girl next door , and f&%$ the seductress. A smart 2 - especially a 2w1 - might prefer the image of the girl-next-door who controls you when you're not looking. 


The question is, what is behind it.


----------



## Animal

Curiously said:


> Ha! I think I'm 4w5. Can't really see a 4w3 for my heart. I do see that connection to 3, but as a core 6. I imagine your protagonist is a CP 6w5-fixer? Too bad I'm more phobic, at least outwardly. The phobic part comes out at the strangest moments though…it's kinda funny and entertaining.


Hmm.. yeah, probably cp-ish, though I could see a phobic side as well.

I've heard that most 6's switch between the two? Although between the 6's I know IRL, I could definitely, easily call one phobic, one cp, and the third more of a 'switch.'


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> Very good point in general.
> 
> 2s are image types and power types. They will take on the archetype that they feel will be seen as 'special' because in this day and age, 'special' is 'attractive.' Most men want to marry the girl next door , and f&%$ the seductress. A smart 2 - especially a 2w1 - might prefer the image of the girl-next-door who controls you when you're not looking.
> 
> 
> The question is, what is behind it.


Yep. That is why the "servant"-archetype for type 2 makes some sense to me as well, even keeping in mind that they are a power-type. It's one way the power-bent can manifest in a less obvious way.

But really, I think there are many ways it can manifest. Including a more intellectual image.


----------



## Curiously

Animal said:


> I've heard that most 6's switch between the two? Although between the 6's I know IRL, I could definitely, easily call one phobic, one cp, and the third more of a 'switch.'


Yes on that switch. It's a pendulum, or a scale, if you will. One foot in, one foot out, most times than not for me. And those rare times when I'm fully in, I may question whether that was wise, but hey, "win or lose" once I'm all in.


----------



## spiderfrommars

Animal said:


> I've heard that most 6's switch between the two? Although between the 6's I know IRL, I could definitely, easily call one phobic, one cp, and the third more of a 'switch.'



Definitely. I know two 6s, and they both switch like crazy. It's like they both have these strong poles tugging them back and forth. One actually has given names to the two distinct sides to his 6, and they really war with each other.


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> I've heard that most 6's switch between the two? Although between the 6's I know IRL, I could definitely, easily call one phobic, one cp, and the third more of a 'switch.'


Yeah this is cause for confusion. Most 6s will say they "switch." In my opinion, it's not a "switch." Being P or CP is more of a general life outlook -- an optimist isn't always optimistic, and a P/CP 6 isn't always phobic/counterphobic. Almost all 6s have a dominate way of coping, be it CP or P, but either can get "triggered" into the opposite. And tbh I don't think it's always the opposite outlook; it could be something like an unhealthy instinct or disintegration or what-have-you.


----------



## Sina

Paradigm said:


> Yeah this is cause for confusion. Most 6s will say they "switch." In my opinion, it's not a "switch." Being P or CP is more of a general life outlook -- an optimist isn't always optimistic, and a P/CP 6 isn't always phobic/counterphobic. Almost all 6s have a dominate way of coping, be it CP or P, but either can get "triggered" into the opposite. And tbh I don't think it's always the opposite outlook; it could be something like an unhealthy instinct or disintegration or what-have-you.


 basically this.

phobics can have cp moments. and, cp can be phobic in certain aspects/situations, but phobia or cp is a general outlook towards life and on handling life. every 6 has a dominant way of coping is the best way to put it. there is no 'switch', and there is no equally cp and p. if that were the case, the distinction would be meaningless especially because phobic and cp are seen as sub-types of 6 in enneagram theory.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> Yeah this is cause for confusion. Most 6s will say they "switch." In my opinion, it's not a "switch." Being P or CP is more of a general life outlook -- an optimist isn't always optimistic, and a P/CP 6 isn't always phobic/counterphobic. Almost all 6s have a dominate way of coping, be it CP or P, but either can get "triggered" into the opposite. And tbh I don't think it's always the opposite outlook; it could be something like an unhealthy instinct or disintegration or what-have-you.





Cosmic Orgasm said:


> basically this.
> 
> phobics can have cp moments. and, cp can be phobic in certain aspects/situations, but phobia or cp is a general outlook towards life and on handling life. every 6 has a dominant way of coping is the best way to put it. there is no 'switch', and there is no equally cp and p. if that were the case, the distinction would be meaningless especially because phobic and cp are seen as sub-types of 6 in enneagram theory.


I see. With this in mind, I would re-phrase what I said earlier. The phobic 6 I know would have very few cp moments that I can recall, but they are there. It's more like he has "brave, courageous" moments vs phobic moments. Likewise the cp has her phobic moments but the overall outlook is quite clear- brave or cp. - and I can definitely tell the difference between those. As for the third, it's possible that when she described cp moments to me, she was actually referring to courage. I have only observed her as a very courageous and strong phobic 6, so I think when she told me she switches she may have been referring to courage. I haven't spent as much time around her as the other two to attest to this, but it makes sense from what I know of her. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Antipode

So, I tested as a 2w1, and then a few friends who were really into enneagram said that I was not 2, for in fact I was 9w1.

I read 9w1 and felt it matched me very very well, and let if at that. Never really looked into the other types because I was more focused on MBTI.

Now I've been reading some types, and I came across type 6, and it really resonated with me. So now it's making me wonder. Any good tests out there?


----------



## mushr00m

Swordsman of Mana said:


>


Who is she? :blushed: *cute*


----------



## Paradigm

Antipode said:


> So, I tested as a 2w1, and then a few friends who were really into enneagram said that I was not 2, for in fact I was 9w1.
> I read 9w1 and felt it matched me very very well, and let if at that. Never really looked into the other types because I was more focused on MBTI.
> Now I've been reading some types, and I came across type 6, and it really resonated with me. So now it's making me wonder. Any good tests out there?


Tests suck :tongue:

I always direct people to this description: http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/73144-enneagram-type-6-proper-description.html. 

A long time ago, I was confused between 9 and 6, too. It helped me to learn about the triads, particularly reactive (6) vs. positive outlook (9). I'd say superego (compliant) vs. withdrawn might help, but it's only in retrospect that I can say I'm so hugely superego; withdrawn can get confused for introversion.


----------



## Coburn

Doubting three as my core. Happened upon a copy of Naranjo's _Character & Neurosis_, and it showed me some new insight on the type three. 

Break down:

*1. Threes are said to have a passionate concern for one's image, for living in the eyes of others. They anticipate the fantasy of the experience of another, directed towards them*. 

_I definitely understand the "aspire to be someone" feeling. I've always admired people who live adventurous lives full of a variety of new and unusual experiences. I do think about how I would love to be perceived like that. This ideal, however...I don't know if it stems from others (I don't actually know anybody who favors this kind of person-- although I can't see anyone outright hating the "crazy uncle" type) or myself. I loved characters who had that magical charm to them and could sweep up a room with stories and excitement when they entered. And although I would love to have that same charm myself, I don't exactly buy the image that I "am" that person. Far from it. I am very aware that "charming" is NOT one of my strengths. I simply don't have a natural magnetism that draws others towards me. And I sure as hell can't fake it for very long. It's actually very draining for me (and yes, I am an extrovert)._

*2. One of the primary differences between a three and a two & four is that the two buys what it's selling.*

_This is my biggest point of conflict. I don't buy what I'm selling. Ever. I know when I'm not being me. I know when I'm being nicer, more charming, more sociable, more relaxed than I actually feel. It's not that I have a problem with being false when I need to. It just takes a lot of energy...so I only tend to do it in short bursts. Threes thrive on an audience...I tend to feel like I'm putting forth the needed amount of energy in order to get what I need. And I never need praise...that's not actually something I actively seek (outside of a few small areas)._

*3. A common characteristic is an unshakeable optimism that comes from being too self-assured. *

_Ha. I totally consider myself an optimist. Well a realistic optimist. Hope for the best, expect the worst, so to speak. Most people would say I tend to come across as cynical when asked to give my thoughts on things...I think that's just because I LOVE to troubleshoot problems. I like to fix them after I troubleshoot them, but I think my enthusiasm for troubleshooting makes me come across as a bit of a cynic at times. I'm working on this at the moment. Too self-assured? Eh...not really. To people I'm close with (and have no boundaries), I come across more certain than self-assured. There's no ego or self-confidence involved...I'm just this wall of me. Neither defensive nor aggressive (although when people push me my response is VERY aggressive). Anyways, self-assuredness...I definitely have a level of bravado when I talk to others, but it's more in jest. I like to tease others and have them push back. I just enjoy the banter a bit of bravado stimulates, especially in reactive/competitive individuals. Which, on a side note, are NOT ones. Ones generally miss the playful nature of my boasts/claims by a MILE and respond very seriously. I'm usually forced to backtrack and tone down the bravado until they pick up that I'm playing them._


*4. A heavy concern with self-presentation in a "personality market."*

_I am very aware of what "looks best" personality-wise in a situation. I'm not usually the one being it, though. It's kind of like a woman who dresses shabbily but could design a wardrobe for Kate Moss. I tend to see how to improve rather than apply it to self...at least on a presentation level. Beside, my ideal "adventurous self" isn't really something most people admire...think Bert from Tremors (I know, completely RIDICULOUS. And isn't he a one? Where does that make sense???)_






*5. Usually contains an unquestioned belief in his greatness and uniqueness...the three is their idealized self and they adore the image they have fashioned themselves in.*

_Nope. As I already said, I don't believe the me as I am right now. I believe in the me that is in the future...I believe I'll get there if I keep working on myself. But I know I'm not that person in a lot of ways, and that I am DEFINITELY not that person right now. I simply don't know how to do enough cool things (like wrangle a crocodile). Am I unique? Only in that I have a level of perseverance that outmatches most people. When I get my teeth into something, I'll sacrifice everyone, myself included, to get it done/see it through. Haven't had any opportunities to do this lately, but that level of hard-ass aggression and commitment simmers under my casual surface. Kind of like the sleeping giant inside me. As to greatness? I'm not actually that great. I can identify more problems with my personality than positives...so I think it's safe to say I don't see personal greatness. Although I do have a very deep respect for my strength of will.

And the idealized self...well I'd fucking love to be like Patton. But I'm not? I idealize him...not the me who idealizes him. I don't hate myself. I'm actually fairly neutral to me as a person. I have positives and negatives, but most of them are only there because I let them be there. If I want to change myself, all I need to do is shut up and commit to making the changes. Kind of like someone overweight choosing to hit the gym, change their diet, and lose the weight._
*
6. Feelings of mastery come from the conviction that there is nothing they can't do and nobody they can't win over. *

_Well it's not a constant state of being. Although if I accomplish something that was difficult to achieve, I definitely have a "fuck yes" moment. I love achieving where it didn't seem possible. It's like I get to tell life, "hey, fuck you. you thought i couldn't do this and guess what: you were wrong. let's fight, bitch."

Outside of difficult challenges (which is where I feel most alive), I don't have that level of self-confidence. ESPECIALLY where it extends to others. Hahaha, oh no, absolutely not. I couldn't convince a starving person to eat food and save themselves. I'd get pissed the second they put up a fight and consider either walking away or tying them down and shoving the food down their throat against their will. Something that removes that uncontrollable variable-- their will. 

I can't charm people and I generally can't convince people of jack shit. Which is why I am TERRIBLE in sales. I don't mind talking about the benefits of a product or item, but that switch from discussion to selling...I totally suck. Not a natural at all. It just feels entirely manipulative to me, and I have trouble convincing anybody to buy something. I think a lot of this stems from the fact that I know they don't actually NEED the item (even if I know it will greatly help them)._
*
7. Believe they can earn love through accomplishment, but the facade they create forces them to reject true knowing love. They are instead left with only attention. *

_More than anything, I'd like to be respected for being knowledgeable about a specific field. I really wish I had a level of expertise that would let people rely on me. That would be pretty cool. Love? I guess respect is a form of love._
*
8. Has a performer's temperament; underneath the show lies a desperate desire for an audience. *

_No...I'm either too laid back or too abrasive (depending on mood and people). Performer is NOT a word people would ever use to describe me outside of my work ethic._
*
9. Needs the attention of others to bring out the best in himself and feel alive.*

_Actually this is really interesting. It's not true for me, but it's interesting to think about. I think I bring out the best in myself when I put myself in challenging positions that force me to give a situation everything I have. The challenge to exert all myself, to not be stopped by anything...I LOVE that. I'm not sure it's the third party element that matters...just the feeling of knowing I fucking kicked ass and pulled shit off. 

Although it is nice if someone notices. _

10. Is routinely frustrated by the fact that what credit the three does receive was obtained through false images and manipulation. 

_Only a problem in romantic relationships. Men are usually attracted to the carelessly warm, carefree, but witty version of me...the me I apply in situation where I don't have to exert the full me. The full me just causes conflict and freaks people out (even when it's being applied to a good goal). 

It's like I'm in cruise control a large portion of the time...and guys like that. And then I withdraw when they show interest because I know that what they're attracted to is the cruise control, not the actual horsepower idling behind the scenes. Okay, I don't know jack about cars, but I tried to explain.

In other words, they're expecting one thing and not realizing that that's me...just an un-applied me. Applied me is very different. _*

11. A high level of intellectual calculation when it comes to the self in relation to the world. *

_Like I said before. I am very aware of what is/isn't appropriate/best/effective in a given situation. But it's more like I observe than actually perform.

A lot of times, what I choose to do comes down to whim. :| 

Sometimes I say "okay, I'll be what's needed." Other times it's like "I'd rather just watch the ship burn and enjoy the flames."_
*
12. Can come across as superficial to some because outside individuals do not have access to the depth behind the mask; it is hidden from sight and not easily accessed. *

_Never had this problem. Although people do have a hard time getting to know me. I'm not really big into true vulnerability._
*
13. Has a self-image built in response to the expectations of others. Rather than build their image around a few past individuals, threes tend to build themselves around the popular, modern, general ideal. *

_I admire specific people, past, living, and fictional. I strive to adopt elements from them for myself...the ones I can actually adopt. 

The general ideal of society...I'm very aware of it. But I'm not it. It's as simple as the fact that it takes a lot of work to be, and for the most part I don't care to put all that work in._*

14. Verbalizes the "missing" area of their lives as an identity crisis: who am I?*

_Yep. Went through this for the last three-ish years. I realized I lacked introspection and had let my self become defined by the way others described me. Which caused problems when a lot of the descriptions were negative...

Anyways, there are still aspects of me I don't know. But I am much more comfortable with myself. 

Becoming introspective and learning that other people's descriptions aren't always right kind of gave me a second chance at being me. I get to decide what kind of person I want to be because I wasn't aware of who I was before.

That being said, there is DEFINITELY a skeleton me that I can't change. That's the horsepower. I just get to choose how to dress it up and make it manifest. I get to pick all the flesh and organs and muscles that surround it._


As a note, I didn't live up to any sort of ideal version of self when I was younger (before the identity crisis). I was just kind of...crazy horsepower me without any sort of limits or consideration for others. I also was much less aware of what people wanted. 

That's something that's come with self-awareness. Now I'm painfully aware of what people want...even when I don't deliver. 

@Animal @Paradigm @mushr00m @TreasureTower @Figure @Curiously @Lazy Bear @cudibloop @Spades

And anybody else with some good insight. Does this still sound three?

I'm thinking it sounds like a three fix rather than a core type. But maybe I'm just going through a "i can't be this type" phase?

Insight and thoughts would be much appreciated.


----------



## Sina

@_Marlowe_

You had sent me a PM entitled why I am not a 3. I'll fwd it to you since it was quite insightful re: how you function. It'll give you some perspective. I do clearly recall typing you at 3 initially when I didn't know you as well, though I don't think you are a core image type. 

This is key:

*2. One of the primary differences between a three and a two & four is that the two buys what it's selling.*


> _This is my biggest point of conflict. I don't buy what I'm selling. Ever. I know when I'm not being me. I know when I'm being nicer, more charming, more sociable, more relaxed than I actually feel. It's not that I have a problem with being false when I need to. It just takes a lot of energy...so I only tend to do it in short bursts. Threes thrive on an audience...I tend to feel like I'm putting forth the needed amount of energy in order to get what I need. And I never need praise...that's not actually something I actively seek (outside of a few small areas)._


Achievement, drive, competitiveness are characteristics pretty much any type can display. I have been contemplating your type on and off, and I'd, at least, be happy to make a case for "NOT core 3". You've presented a good enough case, yourself. And, it doesn't look to me like it's just a phase. If tritype theory holds any weight, you're certainly 3 fixed. 

I have a lot on my hands and life is busy, so I can't promise you a prompt response. And, I don't want to do a half-assed one. But, I have been thinking and observing. So, when it comes (in a few weeks or maybe hours depending on my schedule), it'll be good.


----------



## Coburn

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> You had sent me a PM entitled why I am not a 3. I'll fwd it to you since it was quite insightful re: how you function. It'll give you some perspective. I do clearly recall typing you at 3 initially when I didn't know you as well, though I don't think you are a core image type.


You can re-send it. I'm a little embarrassed at the thought of reading it. It was written pretty early on in my identity hunt. 



> This is key:
> 
> *2. One of the primary differences between a three and a two & four is that the two buys what it's selling.*


Yes. It's something I've been thinking about for awhile now.

I am aware of many of the things threes are aware of...and to some extent that awareness does affect my behavior. But I'm not sure the influence is large enough that it means I'm a three.



> Achievement, drive, competitiveness are characteristics pretty much any type can display. I have been contemplating your type on and off, and I'd, at least, be happy to make a case for "NOT core 3". You've presented a good enough case, yourself. And, it doesn't look to me like it's just a phase. If tritype theory holds any weight, you're certainly 3 fixed.


Thank Naranjo. His book makes it pretty clear what a three is. And for better or worse, I don't line up with a majority of it. 

I'm glad you mentioned that those characteristics (achievement, drive, and competitiveness) are not beholden to a single type. I think perhaps that was part of the problem...I assumed that if I aspired to be anything more on a personal level, it was an Image Type thing...three in particular. 

I appreciate that you've given this thought. I would be very happy for anything you could write me. 

I don't have a fallback type in mind for myself, so if three gets debunked, it's open season on my typing. I have no real new leads.



> I have a lot on my hands and life is busy, so I can't promise you a prompt response. And, I don't want to do a half-assed one. But, I have been thinking and observing. So, when it comes (in a few weeks or maybe hours depending on my schedule), it'll be good.


Not a problem. I completely understand how life does that. 

Again, I appreciate your offer to help. It means a lot.


----------



## Xenograft

@Marlowe I am at work but I still think E8 would work for you, and I gave you my case for it before, but you did not agree with me. I will read over this more carefully after philosophy class in the morning and I will likely be able to give you a full response in the later afternoon, as I have things to do, but I will certainly give this thought. I still hold fast to my assessment of 8 for you, though, so be prepared to disagree with me. You're, what, 386? 385? I think 3 is definitely IN your tritype, but I am unsure as to whether or not it is your dominant.


----------



## Chesire Tower

@Marlowe, I'm really not sure but I could see either a 3w4 or a 7w8 for you.

@Donovan, I'm thinking that you could be a 2w1 - definitely an image type of some sort.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Well, I'm feeling fairly sure of my tritype right now... Although I wonder about my heart fix sometimes, but overall 4 makes sense.


----------



## Coburn

Thank you for the in depth analysis. I truly appreciate it.

To respond in pieces:



Figure said:


> Watched it. Definitely helped. First of all, virtual high five for conservative fiscal policies, and for wanting to meet J.P. Morgan  Here are my thoughts on your type:


Aww, thank you. I don't normally get high fives for my politics. Probably has something to do with the fact that I live in California... 



> *8: *I don't think you come off as an 8 or Gut type in this video at all. It's obvious that you're a pretty direct, task-oriented kind of person. But one of the key traits of type 8 is the tendency to put too much physical exertion into things as simple as speaking to someone. They almost push others away with their commanding body language and tone. In doing so, they tend to set a wall up around themselves and want others to come meet them, as opposed to engaging with the other person openly like you did with CaptainMauzer. You came off to me more as someone who's pretty accessible and open in this video, not someone who is habitually compensating for weakness.


Interesting way of debunking type eight. You seem to rely more on physical symptoms/signs (how I didn't give off an eight impression) rather than use anything I said in particular. 

Was there anything I said that confirmed this decision? Or is it only because of how I came across visually?



> *3:* 3's make a concerted effort to compute an image of what they think is being expected, and match their behavior to that image. They're like chameleons, and change the way they are to match what they think you want them to look like, and because of that can stereotypically come off as artificial, phoney. I didn't get the sense that you were _overdoing_ that in the video, you seemed a lot more down to earth and honest about who you are.


Overdoing-- so was there some image manipulation on my end? Was it something more relegated to a fix or a core? In what ways did it manifest?

I've been typed as a three for almost a year and a half now (before that I was a one, before that an eight).

One of the things that has always bothered me about the three typing is that I am not really as aware of myself or others perceptions of myself as I see most other threes are. As I mentioned above, I generally do something and then have to stop and double check with others because I am not sure how the action/behavior was perceived. I just have an internal check button that says "oh, such and such didn't like this; she may not have take well to that." That usually happens after the behavior in question.

I mean, yes, I am a thousand times more aware than I used to be. But I'm still fairly dense. Either I see what isn't there or I don't see it until after the damage has been done.



> *6:* My call on this is Counterphobic 6w7. You actually mentioned a few really interesting, 6-ish things pertaining to fear in Part 2 - "I have weird, bizarre, fantasies about things that haven't happened," and that "I think of what could happen, what would be the result, and where that would go, and how long it would take to recover." These troubleshooting kind of thoughts are common for Head types, and particularly type 6, who like to be prepared for what they interpret could be catastrophe. The passion of type 6 is Fear, so they spend a lot of time troubleshooting and modeling things in their minds so they can feel prepared or sure.
> 
> 
> So, I would definitely look into types 3 and 6 a little further if you haven't already, keeping in mind that a lot of resources on type 6 are pretty terrible.


I do definitely troubleshoot-- but is that a manifestation of a strong Sp-dom instinct or a CP-six tendency?

I do see potential problems (especially physical risk ones-- although I have done my share of physically risky stuff despite the risks), but I don't panic or worry over then. They're more like daytime fantasies when I'm bored or if the idea springs to mind. 

One thing I've always heard about sixes is that they are driven by anxiety. Professional worriers, so to speak.

Anxiety and worry are not really problems i deal with outside of interpersonal conflict. I see problems-- and I do notice potential trouble spots, to be sure-- but I think about them and then make a decision and stick with it. I don't worry about my decision after the decision has been made. 

That feels almost counter to the six's need to question and doubt the self.

I'm not trying to shoot down your argument; I'm just having a hard time accepting that I work from a base of fear. I know anxious people-- my boss is a 7w8-- and I don't have that underlying panic that comes through their actions. As you noticed, I'm fairly down to earth. 

That all being said, I really appreciate the time you've taken to write all this. It does mean a lot.

Thoughts on what I've written?

@Animal @Curiously @Cosmic Orgasm

Any of your thoughts so far?


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Figure said:


> Sure. Do you have a sample? If not or you don't feel comfortable sharing publicly, just send over a message


I bumped my Type Me thread in the What's My Enneagram Type forum. Check it out.


----------



## Vanguard

Hi Marlowe - I'd say your an sp 3w4. 

_Self-Preservation: *Security*. In their obsession for security they make themselves sure of themselves. __These Threes are too sure of themselves. They reject the experience of insecurity. They seem to be more selfish, more demanding of "This is what I want!" They are less pleasing, Even in relationships there may be a sexual issue but beneath it is a search for security. Very cautious. Over-confident, the image of the person who "has it all together." The first time I saw this type I was in bed with a married woman whose husband came home and began to walk along the corridor toward the room, and she said, __"Take it easy, he never comes into this room" and I was surprised she could be so at ease_
With a hint of:

_Self-Preservation: *Tenacious*. Different from other Fours (who are very oral in their drive to get _
_something good from the outside). More self-sacrificing, more self-contained. A denial of envy, trouble _
_finding envy in themselves, partly because of the descriptions in vogue when the Enneagram first _
_became known. So afraid of dependency, of being hurt, they become counterdependent, autonomous. _
_Self-demanding ("No matter what it may cost..."). Instead of demanding from the outside world, they _
_demand from themselves. Self-devouring; they can turn on themselves with cruelty—"I'll make myself do _
_it!" Van Gogh is an example. His painting became a kind of religion and he chose a life of great poverty _
_"for his art." He sold one painting in his lifetime, yet recently the Sunflower sold for $54 million. This subtype doesn't play the victim; volunteers as martyr without exhibiting it, more of a nobleness. _



That's why you feel not quite typical of your core.


----------



## Sina

@_Marlowe_

You've typed at 7w8, as well. So, it would be a good idea for you to go through your typing journey and write out what caused you to go from 7w8 to 8 to 1 to cp 6 (which you played with as a possibility, even if you may not have typed at such with confidence)briefly to 3. In which ways do you relate to those types? In what ways do you not relate? You did a write-up for 3. You don't have to quote Naranjito for each of those types, but write it out. It's always a good idea to understand your relationship with each of the types, though I'll leave you with the ones you've considered for yourself. Get into as much detail as possible. I don't see contemplating 9w1 or 2w3 as particularly useful exercises at this time for obvious reasons, and it partially answers your other question.

You can safely rule out the following and never look at these lofl-
2,4,5,9

I am convinced you're not a positive outlook triader, at this point. Though, I have told you why I considered 7w8 as a fix for you long back. Some of your comments have made me reconsider it, recently. I will get into it, later. You are more reactive-competency /competence-reactive core. I'll wait to hear your exploration of the above mentioned types. 

A few other comments:-

You don't quite understand how head centre anxiety functions. There are plenty of 6s who are not overt worriers. Head type anxiety is not about worry or panic or nervous energy, though it may manifest as these, or it may not, as can a whole host of other problems sch as past trauma or the obvious- an Anxiety Disorder. If you'd like a forum example, I'd use @_Chipps_. I have known her for a while, and she is not the worrying type, I assure you. XD Beyond that, there are plenty of 6s (Self-typed and correctly so) IRL who are not worriers or panicky types. And, I can say this from experience as well with correctly typed ones. LOL @ professional worriers. Throw that out to the birds along with anything else RH has said about the type.

I will illustrate my point with an example. My best friend is a cp6w5, and I don't remember the last time I saw him anxious even in the slightest. A lot of people who are Enneagram literate routinely type him at 8w9. I did too, initially. He insists on cp6w5, and I do see it after I've gotten to understand the type better. He is plenty down to earth in his day to day interactions. He certainly doesn't wear any anxiety on his sleeve. It's a very internalized process, and it manifests more as planning and preparedness (not the kind of super OTT vigilance people often assume), erring on the side of mistrust until the person proves worthy of trust, at times anger, playing devil's advocate and smoking out contradictions and pushing to see when someone or some thing (an idea) folds [this pushy challenging edge is part of why many cp6s mistype at 8], taking on daunting challenges and overcoming them (whether it's climbing a mountain or taking calculated risks professionally) and thereby overcoming any unconscious doubt (note: overcoming doubt is not a conscious drive and often takes self-work to uncover, for cp6s). Willfulness, ambition, drive and so on are hardly ever attributed to 6s, and this is a pretty big error in current Enneagram scholarship which already, barring a few examples, does a piss poor job of explaining the type. 

Some of the worrisome, 'anxious' people I know are 1s, 3s etc. 

Also keep in mind that several authors point out that CP6s can be oblivious to their own anxiety. They are used to functioning that way, internally and externally countering doubt to the point where it doesn't occur to them that it's what they're doing. 

Read the following:-

http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...-fear-normal-fear-understanding-type-6-a.html

This is a good time to explore 6 (which I am strongly considering for your typing lately) because we have some Te dom cp6s who have recently started discussing their type. So, I'll summon @_Scelerat_. @_Grau the Great_ types at 1w2, which I am convinced is correct. He has contemplated 6, 8 and 1 at length. So, just in case, he has any comments about those types or his own experiences or your type or whatever, I'd be curious to hear from him. 

A while back I'd have said the only other typing I'd see for you is 3w4 SP (my initial typing of you, 2 or so years back). Based on your recent write up particularly, and some more observation, it seems unlikely. And, I am taking into account the fact that Sp 3 is the counter-type for 3. Fwiw, I do see a strong line to 3. The Naranjo post was very revealing, and I am going to go through it in detail sometime. That said, I am going to strongly suggest that you give cp6 further consideration and spend some more time understanding the type. I did offer to send you some Enneagram material a while back, though as far as I remember, you didn't get back to me. I might consider sending it at some point, if you want it still. 
I don't go making these offers here daily. You are a particularly interesting case study. 

Again, I'll comment further, at my convenience, after you've gone over past typings. I am, especially, curious about the switch from 8 to 1.

All the best


----------



## Scelerat

I think people who are considering 6 should look into Helen Palmer's descriptions as they strike me as much more accurate than much of the other material on the topic. One of my core characteristics is that I don't really trust people, presently I've dropped little tidbits of different information to various co-workers to see if any of it comes back to me so I know who to trust. I've been quoted as saying "Don't worry, it's not that I don't trust you specifically, I still suspect that my family are just working a very elaborate long-con" 

I think structure in general is beneficial to a six of either persuasion, in my case I want structure so I know what to rely on or what to blatantly disregard. I was written up countless times while in school for being argumentative, starting debates, etc and only later realized that what I looked at as a normal, relaxed, exchange of ideas was perceived by others as verbally punching people in the face. 

Some of my regular behavior includes pushing people's buttons just to see how they respond. A recent comment was "Oh, I had a nosebleed this morning so I have to clean up my bathroom, it looks like I spent the weekend in there dismembering hookers." It's just to see how people respond, I like it identify how people behave. 

I'll argue with someone just to see if they'll stand up for themselves or pull a "run to mommy". I recently lost all respect for someone I work with because instead of building a better case for what they wanted to do, they pulled a "run to the boss" move. If you can't build a sufficient factual and logical case for your perspective and instead rely on force, you're intellectually insignificant and more concerned with getting your way than the best way. 

If anyone has questions go ahead and ask, not sure how much more shit I can fling at the wall to see if something sticks before my arm gets tired.


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## Sina

@_Scelerat_

That's an excellent post. Great points overall. You also touched on a lot of reactive themes, some of which resemble 8ish behaviour but can come from a 6 core.

Palmer's 6 description is among the best out there. She's a self-identified cp6w5 herself, and so she supplies an experiential depth to it that's hard to find elsewhere. Naranjo and Daniels are the other two authors who get 6 well. Condon is a cp6 as well, but I am currently unfamiliar with his works.


----------



## Scelerat

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Scelerat_
> 
> That's an excellent post. Great points overall. You also touched on a lot of reactive themes, some of which resemble 8ish behaviour but can come from a 6 core.
> 
> Palmer's 6 description is among the best out there. She's a self-identified cp6w5 herself, and so she supplies an experiential depth to it that's hard to find elsewhere. Naranjo and Daniels are the other two authors who get 6 well. Condon is a cp6 as well, but I am currently unfamiliar with his works.


As I mentioned in another post, it's a tricky case because from what I can tell 1, 3, 6, 8 tend to be common in tritypes among Te dom or aux, so it's hard to isolate what comes from the core and what comes from the fixes. 

Provocative language/behavior/button pushing could potentially be 1, it could be a CP 6 thing or an 8 thing. In my case, I do it to figure out where people stand and if they're pussies. If someone gets offended at words, how they are going to react when shit hits the fan, I mean someone who is reduced to tears from a sentence would be hellish to have with you in a real stressful situation. 

Likewise, someone who cowers out during a harsh exchange, or from a joke or two, is clearly someone who cares more about tact than fact and would struggle dealing with conflicts and I dislike conflict avoidant people. Sure, some conflicts are pointless and a waste of time, but sometimes taking a conflict is very important and not being able to do so because you have an obsession with being liked, are scared of saying the wrong thing or whatever is bad business. 

I'll generally push and prod until I find a weak spot, and then I'll keep poking it until I get a reaction just to see how the person reacts under pressure.


----------



## Sina

Scelerat said:


> As I mentioned in another post, it's a tricky case because from what I can tell 1, 3, 6, 8 tend to be common in tritypes among Te dom or aux, so it's hard to isolate what comes from the core and what comes from the fixes.
> 
> Provocative language/behavior/button pushing could potentially be 1, it could be a CP 6 thing or an 8 thing. In my case, I do it to figure out where people stand and if they're pussies. If someone gets offended at words, how they are going to react when shit hits the fan, I mean someone who is reduced to tears from a sentence would be hellish to have with you in a real stressful situation.
> 
> Likewise, someone who cowers out during a harsh exchange, or from a joke or two, is clearly someone who cares more about tact than fact and would struggle dealing with conflicts and I dislike conflict avoidant people. Sure, some conflicts are pointless and a waste of time, but sometimes taking a conflict is very important and not being able to do so because you have an obsession with being liked, are scared of saying the wrong thing or whatever is bad business.
> 
> I'll generally push and prod until I find a weak spot, and then I'll keep poking it until I get a reaction just to see how the person reacts under pressure.


It's important to focus on the core before moving on to the fixes or explaining away things with X or Y fix. All Cp 6s, whether 8 or 1 'fixed' (9 fixed cp6 doesn't work), will push and prod that way. So, it doesn't really matter in this case. cp6s and 8s have little respect for those who "fold" easily under pressure or in a conflict. This is true of 1s, as well. Though, 1s provoke more out of resentment and anger than needing to know where the other really stands. That's core reactive- 8 and 6 especially. 

Now, 6s need to know where others stand to have a sense of surety/certainty and predictability about the their actions and to determine if any future threats may come from these sources. It's a way of overcoming uncertainty and also determining who is trustworthy, for instance. For 8s, the same behaviour stems from a need to establish boundaries, dominance and enforcing their truth as well as discovering who is worthy of respect, who can be counted on to push back and is therefore an equal (also trustworthy- similar to cp6). You see shades of this "testing for strength" in cp6 as well. But, uncertainty relating to future support ("a pussy being hellish to have around in a crisis" as you put it lol) or predictable actions or determining how much of a threat someone may pose is not part of the 8's drive behind this kind of behaviour. They consider themselves bigger than potential challenges and problems, so cp6w5s especially are better trouble shooters than 8s who can get blindsided relatively easily due to the ease with which they underestimate others. 


My point is that provocative behaviour and pushing buttons is almost exclusively associated with 8 on forums, when it is a reactive strategy that cp6s also employ frequently regardless of fixes.
____________________________________-



Oh, here's a good post from another thread @_Marlowe_. 




> Well, shitty stereotypes about cp6s being wannabe 8s have been long put to rest. So, I'll address some of the more salient comparisons and contrasts.
> 
> 1. Both are reactive types- test boundaries, push for the truth, value trust and loyalty.
> 2. Both are aggressive, no-nonsense types that are persistent and highly assertive in a conflict.
> 3. Both types can counter authority. Neither type likes to be placed under anyone's thumb.
> 4. Both types have finely developed BS detectors, because they're unlikely to take things at face value.
> 5. Both types are driven to conquer their fears and vulnerabilities. 8s are considered to exemplify the counter-phobic approach par excellence. In other words, contrary to popular stereotyping, that I alluded to above, about cp6s being blustery wannabes that are constantly fleeing from fear, 8s being as human as anyone else, also have fears and are just as driven as cp6s to counter them.
> 
> Though being a gut type, 8s are largely disconnected from their "fear". Their process of attention (I'll link you to Palmer in a bit) is such that fear tends to not register much consciously; when it does, they're likely to bulldoze over it.
> 
> Cp6s being a core head type deal with anxiety at a fundamental level, like the other two head types.That said, it's always emphasized in credible E-lit. that cp6s can be quite unaware of the anxiety within as they deal with it (as well as counteract) so constantly that it just becomes par for the course. Keep in mind that this "anxiety" /existential anxiety as it's often called manifests more as certainty and clarity seeking, questioning, testing than what people assume (nervousness, crippled with doubt etc.) 6 anxiety is not the same as pathological anxiety.
> 
> Another point of difference is that an 8 is more at home in conflict than cp6. This, however, doesn't mean that a cp6 "breaks under pressure" and an 8 is 'invincible'. Also, 6 being a superego type means that they have to, in some way or form, justify their actions to themselves (at times others). 8s tend not to need to justify their anger/impulses. cp6s have a need for support (even if they are highly self-reliant) and may need their intimates (again not everyone, not every Tom, Harry or whoever) to tacitly support/approve of some of their tougher decisions. An 8's need for support/reassurance or whatever is their blindspot.
> 
> Here are two relevant posts; the first expands on a point above:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Boss*
> 
> You nailed it in that last post. Though, in your previous post you associated counterphobia with dominance etc. Counterphobia could result in aggressive behaviour, but at its core, it's an orientation to countering fear, first and foremost. Keep in mind that counterphobia is a strategy, and while cp6 is classified as a subtype of the 6, because fear/anxiety is its core fear, any type can be counterphobic (facing/countering their fear) circumstantially. 8s are known to really embody the counterphobic approach because of how much they seek to overcome their fears, when they consciously register. RH explain it better:
> _
> Of course, beneath the surface, Eights are as afraid as everyone else, but they have learned to limit the degree to which their fear registers consciously. When it does, Eights will intentionally take on challenges which confront this fear directly. If they fear heights, they will learn to climb mountains or go sky diving. If they are afraid of animals, they will go hunting or trekking in the wilderness. Although we have mentioned the counterphobic aspect of type Six, type Eight really represents the counterphobic approach to life par excellence._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Boss*
> cp6s can follow a competent leader, *lead* or be autonomous. Some cp6s can be leadership oriented though for different reasons than 8s. They prefer having power on their side not as a means of *expansively* acquiring resources (for instance) or there sphere of influence (to avoid being controlled), but chiefly as a means of protecting themselves from danger/uncertainty ending in negative consequences such as loss of support/secure grounding etc.
> 
> 
> 5. cp6 and 8 is one of the commonest mistypes. It's why it gets discussed so often. Apparently, the EI has also found this to be the case in their research. I've addressed some differences, as well as the several similarities, in the points above.



Marlowe, the point you made about alienation as a result of insensitivity causing you to doubt yourself and check in with others to see if they were hurt is more attachment triad than core 8 or even 1. Of course, an 8 that's mature doesn't wish to hurt people they are close to or like or see as innocent in a situation. But, they don't develop this insecurity regarding their own forcefulness and the consequence of being separated from others. They already feel disconnected from others. Support and/or connection/connectedness are a blindspot for 8s. 

8s and 1s (esp 8s) fully expect to be polarizing figures and are content with the knowledge that people will react badly to them. It doesn't really instil the kind of concern you described with being isolated or putting everyone off thanks to your forcefulness and insensitivity. They don't seek to be reassured, especially not the way you described, that their behaviour hasn't pushed others further away. This is a very attachment triad concern, especially 6 and possibly 3 as well. And, I don't see core 3 for you. You've already talked about the type, and see why it doesn't work as well for core. Besides, 3s (even Sp 3s) are too "smooth" to burn bridges the way you've talked about in the past. 

Also, A lot of people seem to attribute insensitivity and aggression to ID types, but any type can be insensitive and aggressive, including the good ol' superego types or whatever.


----------



## Scelerat

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> It's important to focus on the core before moving on to the fixes or explaining away things with X or Y fix. All Cp 6s, whether 8 or 1 'fixed' (9 fixed cp6 doesn't work), will push and prod that way. So, it doesn't really matter in this case. cp6s and 8s have little respect for those who "fold" easily under pressure or in a conflict. This is true of 1s, as well. Though, 1s provoke more out of resentment and anger than needing to know where the other really stands. That's core reactive- 8 and 6 especially.
> 
> Now, 6s need to know where others stand to have a sense of surety/certainty and predictability about the their actions and to determine if any future threats may come from these sources. It's a way of overcoming uncertainty and also determining who is trustworthy, for instance. For 8s, the same behaviour stems from a need to establish boundaries, dominance and enforcing their truth as well as discovering who is worthy of respect, who can be counted on to push back and is therefore an equal (also trustworthy- similar to cp6). You see shades of this "testing for strength" in cp6 as well. But, uncertainty relating to future support ("a pussy being hellish to have around in a crisis" as you put it lol) or predictable actions or determining how much of a threat someone may pose is not part of the 8's drive behind this kind of behaviour. They consider themselves bigger than potential challenges and problems, so cp6w5s especially are better trouble shooters than 8s who can get blindsided relatively easily due to the ease with which they underestimate others.
> 
> 
> My point is that provocative behaviour and pushing buttons is almost exclusively associated with 8 on forums, when it is a reactive strategy that cp6s also employ frequently regardless of fixes.


That was sort of my point. If you observe my behavior, it's more 8ish most of the time, even though some people considered me "not reactive enough" for not getting dragged into their shit, but that non-withstanding. If you look at the descriptions for ESTP/ENTJ/ESTJ most of them overlap nicely with the forum style description of 8, when you add that tritypes that include CP 6 and 8 are common, no wonder there are tons of mistypes.


----------



## Figure

Marlowe said:


> Aww, thank you. I don't normally get high fives for my politics. Probably has something to do with the fact that I live in California...


Haha, I'm in DC, so sympathies to being a minority. 



> Interesting way of debunking type eight. You seem to rely more on physical symptoms/signs (how I didn't give off an eight impression) rather than use anything I said in particular.
> 
> Was there anything I said that confirmed this decision? Or is it only because of how I came across visually?


Interestingly, some people such as the Fauvres look at things like micro-expressions and facial features to determine others' types. Can't recommend that kind of approach personally, but because type 8 has such an externalized relationship with their physical environment, I find that at least for them, it does come out visually. 

What I look for in 8's is the overexertion. 8's suffer from lust, and putting too much intensity into whatever they are doing. For some 8's it comes out as having a loud tone of voice with blunt, assertive, non-inquisitive language. For others, particularly 8w7, it's more of an charming, bravado pushiness. Either way, it's usually the case that there's a lot more physical force put into what an 8 says than there is with most other types, even if they're introverted and don't say much or if what they're saying isn't directed at someone else. You get the sense that if you're going to go against what an 8 says, you're going against the force of the 8 him/herself, because there's a good chance they're not going to think a lot about the content of what they've said. I just didn't get that sense from watching your video, and if there's an 8 who isn't that way, I'd love to see how they are different. 



> I do definitely troubleshoot-- but is that a manifestation of a strong Sp-dom instinct or a CP-six tendency?


Definitely a 6 tendency. 6's like to be able to know what to expect in the future, and they want to try and anticipate it so they feel prepared. Like the other Head types (5, 7), 6's are searching for a reference. They aren't exactly sure of what could be true, or even what is true.

When sources talk about the anxiety of type 6, it's referring to something a little different than what most people think of when they picture "anxiety." A lot of sources on 6 misunderstand this, so it's not surprising you don't relate with it. When most people think of "anxiety," they picture, as you mentioned, people constantly worrying about minute details of everything, being jittery, restless, shaky. Some, _but not all_ 6's, such as my 6w7 Dad who literally cannot keep his body still while driving a car, definitely come across as visibly anxious. Others, such as a 6w5 seem like they have ice in their veins. Some 6's are in-between. 

"Anxiety" in enneagram jargon means something different than the pop definition. Anxiety in enneagram language means, simply, to not be sure. All types/all people may experience not feeling sure of something occasionally, but it's the 6 (and Head types) that habitually feel as though they have to look for and find *certainty*. They struggle to see that any kind of truth or suredness exists, so they spend a lot of energy thinking, troubleshooting, gathering data, making observations, predicting, looking for clues, referencing, testing, monitoring, etc to compensate for the fact that they deep down feel very uncertain, and to give them something to sure about. The emotion they are trying to cope with is anxiety, and they want to feel re-assured. If they were sure to begin with, they wouldn't need to do any of these things, let alone put too much effort into them. 


Does that help? I'm pretty sure 6 is your type, but that it won't sink in and feel comfortable until you get a better feel for the Head center.


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## Scelerat

If some input on the anxiety would help, I'll offer some. I've scored in excess of 130 on the Stanford-Binet, I finished an MBA in half the normal time with a B+ average and I started reading Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn when I was 11. Yet I constantly doubt my intelligence. 

At the same time, I view myself as less competent and more competent than just about everyone I meet, regardless of if they are in my field of not. 

I make the assumption that every single person I meet I out to screw me over in some way or another, and thus I need to maintain an edge towards them. 

I hate asking people for help, I hate being empathized with, and while I'm more than happy to help just about everyone accomplish their goals, I refuse to accept theirs. I don't want to owe anyone anything and I don't want to be reliant on anyone. It's a source of weakness.


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## d e c a d e n t

Figure said:


> When sources talk about the anxiety of type 6, it's referring to something a little different than what most people think of when they picture "anxiety." A lot of sources on 6 misunderstand this, so it's not surprising you don't relate with it. When most people think of "anxiety," they picture, as you mentioned, people constantly worrying about minute details of everything, being jittery, restless, shaky. Some, _but not all_ 6's, such as my 6w7 Dad who literally cannot keep his body still while driving a car, definitely come across as visibly anxious. Others, such as a 6w5 seem like they have ice in their veins. Some 6's are in-between.


I kind of do relate to the regular kind of anxiety myself. So when I first scored as a 6 I wasn't sure how seriously to consider that type, because while I was a worrier, I had non-enneagram related reasons to worry. I also do feel uncertain a lot, but it can be tricky to tell how much of my worry is actual type 6 worry and not, uhm, just worry. =P Didn't really relate to the description of existential anxiety in the "understanding type 6"-thread either, since I tend to worry about actual things (even if they are made up actual things). Sigh.

Sorry, I'm in a rambling mood.


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## Paradigm

I'm an "in-between 6" who can look nervous but usually comes off as apathetic.

And as a phobic 6, I find the whole "pushing people for reactions" thing to be nothing but another mind game, and I hate mind games so I don't (intentionally) do it. Then again, I don't think reactions to a lack of respect correlates to reactions in crises or other situations.

(Sorry for lack of quotes, am on mobile.)


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## Coburn

A lot to read. Thank you for all the in depth responses. When I've had the chance to fully go over them and read supporting material, I'll respond back.
@Figure @Cosmic Orgasm @Scelerat @Paradigm @Vanguard


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## Paradigm

Marlowe said:


> A lot to read. Thank you for all the in depth responses. When I've had the chance to fully go over them and read supporting material, I'll respond back.


I meant to tell you, sorry for not chiming in about your type. I've been busy/sick/tired this week, and probably will be next week, too :\


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## Animal

Paradigm said:


> I meant to tell you, sorry for not chiming in about your type. I've been busy/sick/tired this week, and probably will be next week, too :\


^ Ditto. Will do it asap


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## Animal

Marlowe said:


> Are there any types anyone feels they can safely rule out for me? That may help as well.


2, 4, 5, 7, 9.

- You are not withdrawn
- You are not positive outlook.

1, 3, 6, 8 - I can see as possibilities.

More soon, after I watch your video. I realize I'm late for the party, sorry. Busy week


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## Animal

Dashing said:


> Do me.


roud:

@_Marlowe_ -
Watching your video and listening to your voice..
First of all you are very very pretty  there's a great mixture of beauty, strength, [sorry, not quoting maitri 6, it's just, those words come to mind] intellectual and cute, but 'cute' only because you're alert, you smile, you have pretty features and awake, big eyes. Cute doesnt mean weak/stupid/feeble, some people take it that way so I just want to clarify. You come off intelligent & strong but likable, open, listening. Your eyes are very alert. 
And you have the intense eyes that I only see on 6's. I wouldn't type on that alone. Or maybe I would.  But in context with everything else, I can't say I'm surprised by that portion.

If I explain why the way you laugh and your body-language strikes me super-ego, and why your eyes strike me as 6, it will sound crazy, so I will keep my mouth shut. But that is how it strikes me. There's a vibe of coming off/ feeling confident, smart, alert, but then questioning what you say, and wanting to make the other person feel comfortable. Also a questioning of the things you say right after you say them. Lots of questioning. Very alert mind. More awareness of ideas & cerebral than image, but some automatic communication habits that are geared toward earning the other person's trust/ being likable, playing it safe in presentation but being dangerous and provocative with ideas.

I also think you're sp/so based on your interactions and the topics mentioned in the video.


I'll tear into the posts later, as I am going out now.

I do vibe-type, but I am also aware of the limitations of vibe-typing. That being said I'm much better at typing people I know irl, and much more adept at reading body language and vocal cadence than words on a forum. I've mistyped people IRL but more because I misunderstood portions of enneagram. Once I nail down the vibe of a type I don't usually mess it up unless my personal biases come into play (ie, ex boyfriend who I idealize etc). That doesn't mean I'm necessarily right though, but what I'm saying is, I actually trust myself to get an impression from a video more than a post, even if I can't explain all the why's and what's.


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## Scelerat

A tip for the CP 6: Instead of going off Riso-Hudson type "loyalist" descriptions, think "Stereotypical 8 description with a brain". I think one of the better exaggerations I was told on the topic was: 

"An 8 will beat you down on the spot, the CP 6 will show up at your house and kill your family in front of you without leaving any evidence and frame you for the murder"


----------



## Sina

LOFL @Scelerat :laughing:
Good one.


----------



## Donovan

@Marlowe


anxiety: 

others have hit on it, but i want to say that anxiety doesn't equal "weakness" (it seems to carry that connotation on this forum), and it won't look the same in every person (what appears to be anxiety in one may not be angst in another, regardless of identical behavior). it's a point of unrest that, i'm sure, at its core is universal to everyone, but once it leaves that common point it can take on many different affectations. my phobic 6w5 friend never seems anxious, but that's only because he _never_ shows anything; his anxiety shows through indirectly in his actions, by avoiding or trying to circumvent just about everything that would make him uncomfortable. 

i on the other hand can seem visibly anxious as i pace back-and-forth--or, if you know what to look for, it also shows in my general demeanor, appearing (key word) as "bottled anger", rigidness, being too direct/blunt, etc. ties to feeling/emotion are consciously severed--meaning it's all still there, but i'm not seeking it as a reference point, and so it comes to my "aid" as an invisible "helper" to accidentally divulge content that needs some air. 

in these moments, i'm sure those that don't know me wouldn't say that i was "anxious"; if anything, i'm certain that i'm very off-putting and instantly make other people uncomfortable. i can see it in their expressions and faltering smiles--congenial tones become subdued--they no longer want to ask/talk about whatever they came for because in the attempt to wrestle with whatever's in my head, my body language has become overtly aggressive and hostile... or at least it seems that way from the outside--inside, it's just restless energy that's become trapped. 

i can't really identify it, or the connection itself, but it _is_ connected to my natural demeanor, which is to just stick my head in and say hello--to see what something is, without any negative intention. but both have to be tamped down because our culture doesn't really operate (outside of certain specialties, and without certain social niceties) in a way for that to be functional. aside from making the distinction between different visual cues for anxiety, does any of this seem similar to your "horsepower" analogy? energy that rebounds quickly in-and-out, that has to be modified to meet outside qualifiers, but can be "unhindered" once it becomes clear that those _outside qualifiers_ either aren't worth it, are or just a pile of contrived bullshit? 

is tamping down your "H.P."--aside from genuinely trying to be nice, or trying to create a safe place for those that need it--another form of practicality? in the sense that not reigning it in can result in a multitude of petty problems, and so the reigning comes about as a way to cut the fat from your life, as opposed to a fear of feeling ostracized, or fear of "attack", from letting everything "hang out"?


bonus question: when you do "tamp" down your horsepower (you know, so that you can actually attempt a connection with another human being, or so that you can get that job... if these reasons apply to you at all), do you find yourself encircled in some idiot's game where they mistake your niceness for weakness? does this bring out a "sinner-saint" complex within yourself? 


another bonus question (because i think i can see it in you, in _identified_ 6's, and in myself, but it usually gets relegated to type 8): can you "feel" the other person in front of you--energy-wise? might seem like an odd question, but i notice there are people that really contain their own energy, and there are others that let it out and you can kind of feel it press up against you--feel it shove you--like they're trying to see if you'll wobble out of curiosity, or as if they're trying to make sure that things go their way...? is this something you notice in others, do you find yourself doing it--and if you do, is it something that you capitalize on and bring to the table in every interaction, or is it something that only comes out when you sense it in the other person?


----------



## Scelerat

Donovan said:


> @_Marlowe_
> 
> 
> anxiety:
> 
> others have hit on it, but i want to say that anxiety doesn't equal "weakness" (it seems to carry that connotation on this forum), and it won't look the same in every person (what appears to be anxiety in one may not be angst in another, regardless of identical behavior). it's a point of unrest that, i'm sure, at its core is universal to everyone, but once it leaves that common point it can take on many different affectations. my phobic 6w5 friend never seems anxious, but that's only because he _never_ shows anything; his anxiety shows through indirectly in his actions, by avoiding or trying to circumvent just about everything that would make him uncomfortable.
> 
> i on the other hand can seem visibly anxious as i pace back-and-forth--or, if you know what to look for, it also shows in my general demeanor, appearing (key word) as "bottled anger", rigidness, being too direct/blunt, etc. ties to feeling/emotion are consciously severed--meaning it's all still there, but i'm not seeking it as a reference point, and so it comes to my "aid" as an invisible "helper" to accidentally divulge content that needs some air.
> 
> in these moments, i'm sure those that don't know me wouldn't say that i was "anxious"; if anything, i'm certain that i'm very off-putting and instantly make other people uncomfortable. i can see it in their expressions and faltering smiles--congenial tones become subdued--they no longer want to ask/talk about whatever they came for because in the attempt to wrestle with whatever's in my head, my body language has become overtly aggressive and hostile... or at least it seems that way from the outside--inside, it's just restless energy that's become trapped.


In my case, the more anxious I become the more "rock solid" I appear, my face loses all expression, I use eye-contact as a weapon, I consciously step right into people's intimate zones, I take up a lot of space (and as a 200 lbs, 6.1 - 6.2 guy that says something), I'll openly "shoulder block" people, and my body language seems to scream "I'll stab you in the fucking face". 




> bonus question: when you do "tamp" down your horsepower (you know, so that you can actually attempt a connection with another human being, or so that you can get that job... if these reasons apply to you at all), do you find yourself encircled in some idiot's game where they mistake your niceness for weakness? does this bring out a "sinner-saint" complex within yourself?


I find it almost is if I'm letting myself down. I had an interview recently where the interviewer was presenting an image that just pissed me off because it's exactly what I think is wrong with the entire industry I'm in. I noticed that my frequency of interrupting hte person, trying to change the topic or generally trying to avoid ending up in a situation where I would go on a rant and explain every single thing that's wrong with the person/the approach in minute detail increase for each minute. 



> another bonus question (because i think i can see it in you, in _identified_ 6's, and in myself, but it usually gets relegated to type 8): can you "feel" the other person in front of you--energy-wise? might seem like an odd question, but i notice there are people that really contain their own energy, and there are others that let it out and you can kind of feel it press up against you--feel it shove you--like they're trying to see if you'll wobble out of curiosity, or as if they're trying to make sure that things go their way...? is this something you notice in others, do you find yourself doing it--and if you do, is it something that you capitalize on and bring to the table in every interaction, or is it something that only comes out when you sense it in the other person?


I can feel energies and I can control mine. Sometimes I'll consciously pull my own energy back and other times I'll let it push out. It's like I have this constant force-field around me set to X and if they push it it goes to X+1 where I push back or if they don't push it, it goes to X-1.


----------



## 0+n*1

Do you think that self-typing by using the triads is a correct approach? Do you think that a type would still be an exemplar of the triad it belongs to regardless of the other fixes (if we take tritype into consideration) or do you think those fixes can mold the core type to appear from different triads?


----------



## Coburn

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Marlowe_
> 
> You've typed at 7w8, as well. So, it would be a good idea for you to go through your typing journey and write out what caused you to go from 7w8 to 8 to 1 to cp 6 (which you played with as a possibility, even if you may not have typed at such with confidence)briefly to 3. In which ways do you relate to those types? In what ways do you not relate? You did a write-up for 3. You don't have to quote Naranjito for each of those types, but write it out. It's always a good idea to understand your relationship with each of the types, though I'll leave you with the ones you've considered for yourself. Get into as much detail as possible. I don't see contemplating 9w1 or 2w3 as particularly useful exercises at this time for obvious reasons, and it partially answers your other question.


I have no argument for the 7w8 or CP6. As far as memory serves, I don't ever remember typing as either. If I did switch, it was never with serious awareness of what the type involved. 

I started my journey on PerC as an eight. My first post was in an eight thread. I didn't know much about the enneagram at the time (well, practically nothing other than what 9types taught me), but eight on a very basic level fit best. 

The 9types descriptions that resonated with me at the time:

*TYPE EIGHT* (9type descrip):
*Basic Desire: *to be self-reliant
*Basic Fear:* of submitting to others

*How to Get Along with Me*

Stand up for yourself... and me.
Be confident, strong, and direct.
Don't gossip about me or betray my trust.
Be vulnerable and share your feelings. See and acknowledge my tender, vulnerable side.
(_I do have a softer side...but I'm a bit of a "tsundere" in that regard. The people who get to see it are the ones who know how to play off it without directly acknowledging that it exists-- even when it's right in front of their faces_)
Give me space to be alone.
Acknowledge the contributions I make, but don't flatter me.
(_hate flattery_)
I often speak in an assertive way. Don't automatically assume it's a personal attack.
(*THIS*._ This one sentence pretty much encapsulates my_ *ENTIRE *_life conflict with others_.)
When I scream, curse, and stomp around, try to remember that's just the way I am.
(_I'm an external thinker...I do my best venting aloud, preferably in front of someone that knows I'm just blowing off steam._)


Almost all of the 9type descriptions fit me. I won't list them all here, but I will link them for viewing: Type 8 Enneagram Type Description |9types.com

The only two things on that list that don't necessarily resonate are "upholding just causes" and "never forgetting injustices."

I don't really harbor grudges...although I don't forget people I dislike. If I dislike someone, it takes a long, long time before they get off that list. Most never make it off. It's not really on purpose; my heart has some very strong opinions that not even my head can talk it out of. I'm comfortable with that internal disagreement.

I think I started to reconsider eight after I read dfoster's posts and had some long discussions with you (how long have we known each other anonymously??? ). It was Naranjo's descriptions of lust and expansiveness that did not fit me. I am neither a character of lust nor one who constantly seeks to expand and consume new experiences in an eight fashion.

*Naranjo describes the eight as such:*

“excess in certain things.”

"'lust' to denote a passion for excess, a passion that seeks intensity, not only through sex, but in all manner of stimulation: activity, anxiety, spices, high speed, the pleasure of loud music, and so on."

"a feeling of notalive-enough-except-through-over-stimulation"

Hyperthymic Fearlessness & Malevolent Projection

_
*Those are descriptions I do not relate to.*

That being said, I do relate strongly to this description of the eight's approach to life:_

“the appeal of life lies in its mastery. It chiefly entails his determination, conscious or
unconscious, to overcome every obstacle—in or outside himself—and the belief that he should
be able, and in fact is able, to do so. He should be able to master the adversities of fate, the
difficulties of a situation, the intricacies of intellectual problems, the resistances of other
people, conflicts in himself. The reverse side of the necessity for mastery is his dread of
anything connoting helplessness; this is the most poignant dread he has.”

I've mentioned it before around other threads, but I am very much at odds with the abstract concept of "life." Life is being determined to fuck me over and trip me up at every opportunity. It is my passion to fuck life over and not be controlled by it. 

To that end, I have a deep and desperate fear of failure. Fear that I will fail to do this, to overcome those things which should be overcome. To settle and accept and and be pushed about without a fight. I do not want to wake up one morning and find I relaxed my way through life and became comfortable only with what life offered me easily.

It's more orientation to the self, though. I don't expect that the world or others will suddenly co-operate with me. So I just kind of plan around the external obstacles. I mentioned that I have a deep respect for my own strength of will. It's because I know that even if boulders are dropped in front of me, I will work my way around them, even if it takes me years. I might not be the kind of person who can use dynamite to blow the boulder up (sometimes some sleeping dogs are better left asleep), but that will not stop me from moving forward. 

*I can tuck my head down, give into the essence of my determination, and keep pushing forward. I can be satisfied with moving only millimeters at a time if I know what I want. *

It's a "you will not get the best of me" mentality. And it's both been very helpful and very detrimental to me in the past. 

So anyways, long story short is that the character of the eight didn't fit me, although I do relate to the eight's relationship with control and being controlled. 


*The switch to type one was* an attempt to compromise that anger/passion towards fucking over life with the lack of "eightness."

I couldn't see myself as anything other than an anger type, and I am DEFINITELY NOT a type nine (sorry nines), so one was the only other option in my mind. 

*The one's underlying anger-- less overtly expressed but still there, drew me. *

It probably also doesn't help that I have that infamous ESTJ short temper-- I get very easily annoyed with what I perceive as stupid. So when I see people doing stupid things that are either a) going to waste my time or b) make more work for me, I definitely harbor anger/resentment towards them.

Especially as (as I mentioned), I don't always want to face the conflict head on (by just confronting them). Unfortunately for me, I have a way of making problems worse if I approach them on any sort of emotional level (and me thinking the conflict is stupid is emotional). 

Well, to be fair, I can also make things worse even when I'm not emotionally attached. I tend to be a little bit more blunt in that case. XD

I do my best with conflict when I'm in my cruise control mode. I can ease the problem without having to actually apply any force. But that's pretty much never how conflict works...





*Okay, here are some posts from my "type one" days. I'm sure you'll be able to spot a common theme:*

From the *How Does Self Censuring Manifest for You* thread:

"I dislike missing opportunities. I dislike taking an easy road when a harder one is available. I dislike standing down to a challenge of endurance or wills. I dislike expressing the same behavior I have endured from others.

As a result, I tend to be very outgoing, opportunistic, a challenger, and incredibly self-sufficient on an emotional level.

I'm not always that way because I want to be. I simply am because I need to be. Life and defeat hang in the balance."



From the "*Being Accepted*" thread (this answer might have been a response to others' more detailed posts; can't be sure):

"Am I the only one who doesn't share my private life because I don't trust people with that information?"



From the "*Being Hard on Self*" thread:

"I am incredibly hard on myself, but not in the same way. I'm not sure if it's a one thing-- I know an INFJ who has the same habit who is not a one (although possibly has a one fix).

I have no intention of stopping any time soon because I believe forcing myself to face trials of fire strengthen and prepares me for the rigors of life. I want to survive. To "stop" is to acknowledge weakness, and to allow weakness into my life is to make me vulnerable. And if I am vulnerable, I am easily exploited for a living death.

It's not really a matter of "failing to achieve perfection" for me. More like a slow and steady preparation for the inevitable wars of life.

Does that make sense?"



From the "*Resentment*" thread (dealing with another user's frustration with a group project):

"Unless this group project is life or death (and I mean literally), pull back on the emotional attachment. You will never, ever come out the winner by placing your emotional satisfaction on the shoulders of coworkers. Ever.

EDIT: My above statement was an indirect way of saying that is how I deal with situations like the one you mentioned. I emotionally detach myself and put the project in a big picture perspective. You aren't bothered if you don't care.

In other words, my advice is what I do to handle not getting upset with others."




***On a site note, it's hilarious how many flippant answers I gave to questions other people took seriously. Probably 90 percent of everything I've written on PerC are shallow witticisms. It makes it really hard to find much of quality to show you all. LOL***




So anyways, getting back to this INCREDIBLY long response of mine...I eventually had to come to terms with the fact that I'm not really a perfectionist. In the "i must be right and correct" sort of one way. I'm much more forgiving of myself-- even when I am hard on myself. 

I simply know what I can and cannot do, so I don't have a problem excusing myself when I need to. It makes for a very easy relationship with myself. 

That being said, I'm still probably harder on myself than most people. I don't blame others for my mistakes. I take fully responsibility (sometimes more than I should) for problems in my life. So I am realistic about when I am a fuck up and when I am not. Projection (other than the assumption that most people will not go out of their way to do something nice for me) is not a quality of mine. 

(so much typing!)




> You can safely rule out the following and never look at these lofl-
> 2,4,5,9


 Farewell you lovely little types. I will miss you all.

Except the nines. Never the nines. >




> I am convinced you're not a positive outlook triader, at this point. Though, I have told you why I considered 7w8 as a fix for you long back. Some of your comments have made me reconsider it, recently. I will get into it, later. You are more reactive-competency /competence-reactive core. I'll wait to hear your exploration of the above mentioned types.


Well if it helps any, I like the word "competency" more than "reactive."  



> A few other comments:-
> 
> You don't quite understand how head centre anxiety functions. There are plenty of 6s who are not overt worriers. Head type anxiety is not about worry or panic or nervous energy, though it may manifest as these, or it may not, as can a whole host of other problems sch as past trauma or the obvious- an Anxiety Disorder. If you'd like a forum example, I'd use Chipps. I have known her for a while, and she is not the worrying type, I assure you. XD Beyond that, there are plenty of 6s (Self-typed and correctly so) IRL who are not worriers or panicky types. And, I can say this from experience as well with correctly typed ones. LOL @ professional worriers. Throw that out to the birds along with anything else RH has said about the type.
> 
> I will illustrate my point with an example. My best friend is a cp6w5, and I don't remember the last time I saw him anxious even in the slightest. A lot of people who are Enneagram literate routinely type him at 8w9. I did too, initially. He insists on cp6w5, and I do see it after I've gotten to understand the type better. He is plenty down to earth in his day to day interactions. He certainly doesn't wear any anxiety on his sleeve. It's a very internalized process, and it manifests more as planning and preparedness (not the kind of super OTT vigilance people often assume), erring on the side of mistrust until the person proves worthy of trust, at times anger, playing devil's advocate and smoking out contradictions and pushing to see when someone or some thing (an idea) folds [this pushy challenging edge is part of why many cp6s mistype at 8], taking on daunting challenges and overcoming them (whether it's climbing a mountain or taking calculated risks professionally) and thereby overcoming any unconscious doubt (note: overcoming doubt is not a conscious drive and often takes self-work to uncover, for cp6s). Willfulness, ambition, drive and so on are hardly ever attributed to 6s, and this is a pretty big error in current Enneagram scholarship which already, barring a few examples, does a piss poor job of explaining the type.


I guess the argument could be made that I "doubt" my ability to defeat life...

I don't really see defeat as an option though, so I'm not sure where the doubt would lie. It's not really an either or scenario. There is only one option. 




Okay, I'll get back to the other half of your post in a bit.
@Figure @Animal @Scelerat @Paradigm


----------



## Animal

Scelerat said:


> In my case, the more anxious I become the more "rock solid" I appear, my face loses all expression,


I KNEW IT.

I had seen this in another 6 (well, more than one, but I'm thinking of one specifically in whom this behavior is extreme), and I was sure that 'rock solid' thing was an anxiety/ fear cover. Most other people don't see it that way but it made sense to me. Thank you for sharing. 

Your posts here are very helpful actually. Really enlightening. Keep posting!


----------



## kaleidoscope

@_Marlowe_

I wasn't mentioned, but I just want to point out that after knowing you for a while now, you don't strike me as a core 3w4. You don't come across as polished or *primarily *image conscious to me. There could be the desire to appear competent and confident, but I think for you, BEING competent is more your focus. Image types struggle with their value and worth, even if they cope with that in different ways. I definitely see 3w4 as a fix, but not as a core type.


----------



## Coburn

kaleidoscope said:


> @Marlowe
> 
> I wasn't mentioned, but I just want to point out that after knowing you for a while now, you don't strike me as a core 3w4. You don't come across as polished or *primarily *image conscious to me. There could be the desire to appear competent and confident, but I think for you, BEING competent trumps that desire to simply come across that way to others. Image types struggle with their value and worth, even if they cope with that in different ways. I definitely see 3w4 as a fix, but not as a core type.


First, I am SO sorry I forgot to mention you! I would have-- I'm just really bad at remembering who might be willing to look into a type me issue.

Second, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. I DO value competency over the image of competency. It's so true that it's kind of crazy I didn't realize it before. 

Thank you so much for writing that. I feel like that gives me a lot of perspective about myself, in a way I didn't realize before.

EDIT: it explains a lot with regards to how I've treated my relationships with others in the past. I almost always rank a goal/task above my relationships with others when push comes to shove. To go even further, there have been times where I have manipulated others in order to achieve an end goal. Not because I wanted to be perceived as competent...but because the damn job needed to be done.

That being said, I'm not sure I would ever sacrifice a goal I had my heart and mind set on accomplishing for a relationship. In fact, I can't ever think of a time that I HAVE done that. 

Geez, what a bastard I am. Explains why friendship is not something I excel at with most people.


----------



## Sina

@_Marlowe_

The only types worth considering for you are CP6 and 8, though I certainly lean core 6 at this point, there's no harm in exploring 8 in depth. Forget all about 1, 7 and 3 for core. The file's closed on those types. No revisiting them again Hahahaha!

You definitely have the oppositional orientation to the environment that both 8s and CP 6s display. You need to focus on the defense mechanisms and trait structure portions of the 6 and 8 descriptions by Naranjo. That's where the meat's at. The mastery over life is something that really isn't exclusive to 8, as there are competency triaders who also approach life similarly. 



> the appeal of life lies in its mastery. It chiefly entails his determination, conscious or
> unconscious, to overcome every obstacle—in or outside himself—and the belief that he should
> be able, and in fact is able, to do so. He should be able to master the adversities of fate, the
> difficulties of a situation, the intricacies of intellectual problems, the resistances of other
> people, conflicts in himself. The reverse side of the necessity for mastery is his dread of
> anything connoting helplessness; this is the most poignant dread he has.


I'd be hard pressed to find a cp 6 who doesn't relate to this, who doesn't/can't fathom being at life's mercy or being under anyone's thumb. Fwiw, I have known type 1s very closely who similarly view life as something to be conquered, to never let obstacles or adversity get in their way. I said earlier on the thread that self-reliance is not just a cp 6 or 8 concern. Competency triaders have a tremendous need to be self-reliant; to not be helpless is a conscious drive for a lot of assertive individuals, across type lines. 

Where you end up in the cp6/8 realm is the adversarial orientation to life. The 8 does not doubt the ability to conquer life, certainly not consciously. CP 6 is aware of that doubt and aware of the fact that said doubt is not an option. 



> To that end, I have a deep and desperate fear of failure. *Fear that I will fail to do this, to overcome those things which should be overcome. *To settle and accept and and be pushed about without a fight.


This is very 6. 8s have the attentional pattern of viewing themselves as bigger than potential challenges and more, so they don't think in terms of being unable to overcome. The whole conscious fear of being controlled/pushed about without a fight is more in line with cp6. 8s definitely see the world as dog eat dog, and they see themselves as being on the favourable side of the power scale. 

P.S. The 9types list is really broadly worded. I wouldn't type by that alone. A shit ton of Sp 3s and 7w8s, 1s, cp6s...pretty much anyone who is outspoken, routinely insensitive, assertive and dominant would relate to those behavioural traits. Their 6 list is a joke, not unlike most 6 descriptions XD.


----------



## Donovan

@_Scelerat_

the energy-pushing thing is something i basically lived in when younger (although now i see a lot of that past behavior--_mine_ that is, everyone's situation is different--as inadvertently predatory, too heavy-handed, and wrong to contain someone's energy _if_ they don't deserve it). 

now, it's more like: create a barrier that still allows intention--and therefore a potential connection--to leak through, while being ready to snap everything shut around the other person as soon as they've earned it. 

and really, half the time i don't run into people who are anything more than bags of hot air--people that are a "things", that adhere to a certain pattern i've played into countless times... and sometimes i'm just not in the mood to get into playground antics with man-boys or girlish women, who want to amp up a fictional entity that exists in the minds of others (their image), because they know that this thing they reach for doesn't exist within themselves... right now i'm trying to let all of that go (because in reality i'm doing nothing that they aren't by entering into their little game-o-shit--well, except that i'll back everything up and follow through with it, i doubt they will), and going the ol' route of letting life direct me, instead of trying to direct it or trying to halt its momentum altogether while i figure it out piece by excruciatingly intricate piece. 

but while i've been trying to use other tools, it does come in handy, and it works in many different directions:
i had a boss that absolutely hated me on the spot--a very unhealthy, but very sucessful 3; the interview was me following him around as he idly checked on things, made no eye contact, gave noncommittal responses as if he wasn't listening (all good, not a problem). but when he tried to intimidate/brow-beat me like he did with every other employee, and i knew that pushing back just got people fired, i went cold. i just kept this up, would meet his eyes with dead-eyes, gave no response unless it was necessary; i'd invade his space, but make no sign that i even took notice--like if he was leaning on a counter i'd walk up, lean just a few inches from him, stare off into the distance, ignore his staring at me from the corner of my eye, and just envision all those tendrils of energy reaching towards me only to lopped off from his being... after a few days of this, he apologized, but couldn't apologize for anything in particular because he hadn't actually done anything (other than, of course, acting like an ass to everyone he could afford to because it made his life easier)! LOL, fucking idiot... 

so, sometimes i find that it's great to let the other person think they're winning, to let their energy in, to give it a "nice" home, let it stretch its legs out and get comfy--only to have them realize after the fact that now, they're lost, encircled, and their "getting comfy" was just them digging their very own unmarked grave, . hell, they'll even help you fill it, what with being too busy feeling safe and untouchable to realize that _that_ is in fact _dirt_ they're brushing from their eyes, that the labored breathing is their "new home" closing in around their chest, that it's earth pouring into their mouth. at this point, all you have to do is a good, light-hearted little jig on top of it all to compact everything in place, and to secure _them_ in their place. 


the only time i really (in real life) try to force my "energy" onto another person is when i've unwittingly given them some sort of handhold into me and have--like i said in the earlier post--mistaken my generosity and _usual_ gentleness for weakness. it really, _really_ irks me; it just shows what type of person they really are, and at that point the need for justification according to the slave-master that is "super-ego" has just been written up and stamped so furiously with a loud, red "APPROVED" that no white is left showing--and everything, including the "hold back! they're people too!" memo--has lost it's meaning and is obscured underneath all that red. it's like, "... you _mother_... :happy: ok, come here... so i can place my foot on your neck and stand that much taller once i'm through with you. 


or when other people are having their own "energy-sphere" violated due to someone else's inadequacies (i mean, we all have them, but good god at least attempt to reign that shit in, _please_), and they are doing _nothing_ about it--other than falling into themselves... those are the moments when getting arrested or losing my job don't seem "all that bad". 

god, a part of me--as much as i don't like to admit it--just looks for that shit. it's like, "go stand over there and 'coax' their negative intent out--don't worry, i'm right here, not five feet away--and i guarantee my hand will make it to their throat before a cops cuffs make it to my wrists. i've got you! ".


----------



## kaleidoscope

Marlowe said:


> First, I am SO sorry I forgot to mention you! I would have-- I'm just really bad at remembering who might be willing to look into a type me issue.


Oh, no worries, I'm not that active anymore nowadays :3



> Second, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. I DO value competency over the image of competency. It's so true that it's kind of crazy I didn't realize it before.
> 
> Thank you so much for writing that. I feel like that gives me a lot of perspective about myself, in a way I didn't realize before.


Glad to see I haven't lost my touch :kitteh:

I'll look at your posts in this thread, but I agree with @Cosmic Orgasm that fear of failure is _much _more CP6 than 8.


----------



## mimesis

Donovan said:


> ...but i want to say that anxiety doesn't equal "weakness" (it seems to carry that connotation on this forum), and it won't look the same in every person (what appears to be anxiety in one may not be angst in another, regardless of identical behavior). it's a point of unrest that, i'm sure, at its core is universal to everyone, but once it leaves that common point it can take on many different affectations.


Whenever a passion/vice or fear controls you, or becomes self-defeating it can be considered counter productive or a liability, but this can be said of all types. In that respect 'fear being controlled' can be a 'weakness' (too) if you will. With regard to 'universal' anxiety, I'm sure most of us can relate to the 9 fears/desires to some extend. It's just that one sticks out, has predominant focus, or develops as a fixation (and way of life). Not 'all' anxiety indicates type 6, but I don't think there is anything such thing as *the* 6 Anxiety, just like the ego or 'personality' is not a permanent state. Whether it is 'checking the other out' or paranoid delusion, it's both anxiety (and very 'real' to the person), and either way, there is no (Holy) Faith.


----------



## mimesis

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Marlowe_
> 
> I wasn't mentioned, but I just want to point out that after knowing you for a while now, you don't strike me as a core 3w4. You don't come across as polished or *primarily *image conscious to me. There could be the desire to appear competent and confident, but I think for you, BEING competent is more your focus. Image types struggle with their value and worth, even if they cope with that in different ways. I definitely see 3w4 as a fix, but not as a core type.


Not implying anything to anyone, but focusing on other people's flaws and stupidity *could* be an image strategy, (indirectly) portraying a flawless image of oneself or affirmation of self-concept, or create an illusion of competence (deceit <> authenticity > vulnerability > Holy Hope), or perhaps to divert attention from one's own flaws. I mean, to what extend is it really 'productive' to do so?


----------



## Coburn

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Read the following:-
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...-fear-normal-fear-understanding-type-6-a.html
> 
> This is a good time to explore 6 (which I am strongly considering for your typing lately) because we have some Te dom cp6s who have recently started discussing their type. So, I'll summon Scelerat. Grau the Great types at 1w2, which I am convinced is correct. He has contemplated 6, 8 and 1 at length. So, just in case, he has any comments about those types or his own experiences or your type or whatever, I'd be curious to hear from him.
> 
> A while back I'd have said the only other typing I'd see for you is 3w4 SP (my initial typing of you, 2 or so years back). Based on your recent write up particularly, and some more observation, it seems unlikely. And, I am taking into account the fact that Sp 3 is the counter-type for 3. Fwiw, I do see a strong line to 3. The Naranjo post was very revealing, and I am going to go through it in detail sometime. That said, I am going to strongly suggest that you give cp6 further consideration and spend some more time understanding the type. I did offer to send you some Enneagram material a while back, though as far as I remember, you didn't get back to me. I might consider sending it at some point, if you want it still.
> I don't go making these offers here daily. You are a particularly interesting case study.
> 
> Again, I'll comment further, at my convenience, after you've gone over past typings. I am, especially, curious about the switch from 8 to 1.
> 
> All the best



To elaborate a little, I switched from type from type one to type three because my fear of failure (in the context I discussed earlier-- the fear of not being something, of not being everything I should be, of not overcoming to be all that I can be) related very closely to the fear many threes describe.

I guess my conflict is that my fears are not as tied to image as I thought they were.

My doubts about type three began to emerge the more I realized that I am NOT aware of others' perceptions of me, and that I do not instinctively build and sell an image to myself as well as an audience. 

Well, that and the fact that if I can get away dressing like a homeless logger, I will.



On a note related to your post-- I read through your entire link. I don't relate to "existential anxiety" in the slightest. None of it rings true for me. 

Outside of my interpersonal relationships, I don't self-doubt. I don't question or re-question myself (except as I relate to the enneagram )...I know @Scelerat mentioned doubting his own intelligence despite having achieved so much. That's not something I experience.

I know what I know. I know what I don't know. And I accept that there are things I don't know I don't know. 

I know your thread mentioned groundless fears-- a sort of nameless, directionless menace that intends harm but can't be stopped. 

Unless I'm relating that to life as a concept, it doesn't really translate. Even then, it seems like a pretty weak translation to me. Sure, life is out to fuck me over. But it's a fact, not a fear. I don't worry when or how...so long as I know my strength of will persists, I have no fear of being defeated. Every fuck over is simply and opportunity for me to make a comeback. I simply cannot be defeated. It's not a concept that computes, probably because it's not an acceptable outcome. 

Maybe that seems contradictory to my fear to fail to achieve my outcome. It doesn't feel contradictory.

"Free floating anxiety" is another term the thread mentions...another thing to which I don't relate. Well, I don't relate to about 99% of what was written, save the part about dreaming up unlikely dangers. I do that sometimes when my mind is idle. I usually let the idea play out in my head, and then toss it out and move onto the next thought. Sometimes I'll laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of it. I rarely take such thoughts seriously; they're more an interesting mental quirk I had chalked up to being Ne tertiary (forgive the theory crossover). 

For example, I used to walk to work down a street that had barking dogs. Sometimes I used to imagine that the dogs would get out and come after me; I would think about what I could do to get away from them. I would play the scenario out in my head-- try a couple different things, see what changed. And then when I had played things out, I was done. I moved onto whatever else I needed to get done for the day. Thoughts forgotten unless something reminded me of them. 

Actually, most of my dreams work that way as well. In almost any moderately elaborate dream I have, everything always hinges on a choice I make. The scenario plays out and then at the end of my dream I get to go back to that point and make a different choice. I can't actually control anything else in my dream. I can only change my decision about how to act and see how things play out. Normally I just end up evaluating how different choices affect different outcomes at the end of it all. 

I've always found that a rather interesting method of dreaming. 

Anyways, the point being that I don't suffer from a nameless doubt or anxiety. Angst simply isn't something I deal with. It just isn't a party of me (relationships excepting).

Oh, and I know some info about sixes (including Naranjo) mention that sixes can sometimes get seized up (paralyzed) over a fear of outcomes. That is DEFINITELY not an issue I have. I never, ever worry about outcomes to the point of being indecisive. I recognize the outcomes of a decision and then make a decision. That's it. I never have a "but what if" moment. Never.


EDIT: that all being said, I'm not saying it's impossible for me to be a six. Not at all. I'm still looking at the type. I just want to make it clear that the nameless anxiety thing is not something I struggle with. 

I'm not going to pretend to have struggles I don't actually have...I don't think that's going to help me accurately type myself.


----------



## Sonny

@Marlowe you always struck me as core 6, and at the least not core 1. Haven't read the thread so it's just a btw post.

Carry on =D


----------



## Grau the Great

Marlowe said:


> Unless I'm relating that to life as a concept, it doesn't really translate. Even then, it seems like a pretty weak translation to me. *Sure, life is out to fuck me over. But it's a fact, not a fear.* I don't worry when or how...so long as I know my strength of will persists, I have no fear of being defeated. Every fuck over is simply and opportunity for me to make a comeback. I simply cannot be defeated.* It's not a concept that computes, probably because it's not an acceptable outcome.*
> 
> *Maybe that seems contradictory to my fear to fail to achieve my outcome. It doesn't feel contradictory.*


Forget what you've read from experts or authors or whoever the hell else. In my opinion, what I've bolded is a better demonstration of counterphobic 6 thinking than any of the dumbass descriptions floating around out there online. 

Straight-up anxiety or worry doesn't really describe a 6 mindset, especially a cp6. In fact, several other types, 1s, 2s, and 3s among them, are far more likely to "worry" openly than a cp6. What you're talking about later on in that same post, with playing through possibilities of scenarios and planning for them, is *exactly* what cp6 'anxiety' means. It's the wrong fucking word they picked for it (preparedness would be better imo), but unfortunately we're stuck with it. 'Seeing how things play out' and planning ahead for contingencies/problems is very typical of Sixes, and a blindspot for both 1s and 8s, who tend to be overconfident in their singleminded, linear interpretation of something.


----------



## Coburn

Scelerat said:


> I think people who are considering 6 should look into Helen Palmer's descriptions as they strike me as much more accurate than much of the other material on the topic. One of my core characteristics is that I don't really trust people, presently I've dropped little tidbits of different information to various co-workers to see if any of it comes back to me so I know who to trust. I've been quoted as saying "Don't worry, it's not that I don't trust you specifically, I still suspect that my family are just working a very elaborate long-con"
> 
> I think structure in general is beneficial to a six of either persuasion, in my case I want structure so I know what to rely on or what to blatantly disregard. I was written up countless times while in school for being argumentative, starting debates, etc and only later realized that what I looked at as a normal, relaxed, exchange of ideas was perceived by others as verbally punching people in the face.
> 
> Some of my regular behavior includes pushing people's buttons just to see how they respond. A recent comment was "Oh, I had a nosebleed this morning so I have to clean up my bathroom, it looks like I spent the weekend in there dismembering hookers." It's just to see how people respond, I like it identify how people behave.
> 
> I'll argue with someone just to see if they'll stand up for themselves or pull a "run to mommy". I recently lost all respect for someone I work with because instead of building a better case for what they wanted to do, they pulled a "run to the boss" move. If you can't build a sufficient factual and logical case for your perspective and instead rely on force, you're intellectually insignificant and more concerned with getting your way than the best way.
> 
> If anyone has questions go ahead and ask, not sure how much more shit I can fling at the wall to see if something sticks before my arm gets tired.


It sounds like you purposefully test people around you to gauge where they stand in relation to you. 

I take it that's a way of building structure? Determining what can and can't be relied on?


Personally, it's not something I completely relate to. I don't really test my environment that way. I just move through my environment and when it does fuck me over I adjust accordingly. 


Also, can you relate more on your relationship with internal, self-directed doubt? You talked about your intelligence, but I'd love more on that type of self-oriented questioning, if you have the time.


----------



## Coburn

Animal said:


> Watching your video and listening to your voice..
> First of all you are very very pretty  there's a great mixture of beauty, strength, [sorry, not quoting maitri 6, it's just, those words come to mind] intellectual and cute, but 'cute' only because you're alert, you smile, you have pretty features and awake, big eyes. Cute doesnt mean weak/stupid/feeble, some people take it that way so I just want to clarify. You come off intelligent & strong but likable, open, listening. Your eyes are very alert.
> And you have the intense eyes that I only see on 6's. I wouldn't type on that alone. Or maybe I would.  But in context with everything else, I can't say I'm surprised by that portion.


Awww. Thank you! I appreciate the compliments. 



> If I explain why the way you laugh and your body-language strikes me super-ego, and why your eyes strike me as 6, it will sound crazy, so I will keep my mouth shut. But that is how it strikes me. There's a vibe of coming off/ feeling confident, smart, alert, but then questioning what you say, and wanting to make the other person feel comfortable. Also a questioning of the things you say right after you say them. Lots of questioning. Very alert mind. More awareness of ideas & cerebral than image, but some automatic communication habits that are geared toward earning the other person's trust/ being likable, playing it safe in presentation but being dangerous and provocative with ideas.
> 
> I also think you're sp/so based on your interactions and the topics mentioned in the video.


Yep, I am sp/so. Definitely so.



> I'll tear into the posts later, as I am going out now.
> 
> I do vibe-type, but I am also aware of the limitations of vibe-typing. That being said I'm much better at typing people I know irl, and much more adept at reading body language and vocal cadence than words on a forum. I've mistyped people IRL but more because I misunderstood portions of enneagram. Once I nail down the vibe of a type I don't usually mess it up unless my personal biases come into play (ie, ex boyfriend who I idealize etc). That doesn't mean I'm necessarily right though, but what I'm saying is, I actually trust myself to get an impression from a video more than a post, even if I can't explain all the why's and what's.


Still, I'm happy for your insight. Plus I got a bunch of free compliments over it! I need to talk to you more often. XD


----------



## Coburn

Scelerat said:


> A tip for the CP 6: Instead of going off Riso-Hudson type "loyalist" descriptions, think "Stereotypical 8 description with a brain". I think one of the better exaggerations I was told on the topic was:
> 
> "An 8 will beat you down on the spot, the CP 6 will show up at your house and kill your family in front of you without leaving any evidence and frame you for the murder"


This might be a good time to mention that I have already thought about which situations I am willing to commit murder in, and how to do so. XD


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Marlowe
you've never struck me as neurotic or reactive enough to be a 6. 3 makes a lot more sense for you (even as far as tritype is concerned, I could just as easily see you as 7 fixed)


----------



## Coburn

Donovan said:


> @Marlowe
> 
> 
> anxiety:
> 
> others have hit on it, but i want to say that anxiety doesn't equal "weakness" (it seems to carry that connotation on this forum), and it won't look the same in every person (what appears to be anxiety in one may not be angst in another, regardless of identical behavior). it's a point of unrest that, i'm sure, at its core is universal to everyone, but once it leaves that common point it can take on many different affectations. my phobic 6w5 friend never seems anxious, but that's only because he _never_ shows anything; his anxiety shows through indirectly in his actions, by avoiding or trying to circumvent just about everything that would make him uncomfortable.
> 
> i on the other hand can seem visibly anxious as i pace back-and-forth--or, if you know what to look for, it also shows in my general demeanor, appearing (key word) as "bottled anger", rigidness, being too direct/blunt, etc. ties to feeling/emotion are consciously severed--meaning it's all still there, but i'm not seeking it as a reference point, and so it comes to my "aid" as an invisible "helper" to accidentally divulge content that needs some air.
> 
> in these moments, i'm sure those that don't know me wouldn't say that i was "anxious"; if anything, i'm certain that i'm very off-putting and instantly make other people uncomfortable. i can see it in their expressions and faltering smiles--congenial tones become subdued--they no longer want to ask/talk about whatever they came for because in the attempt to wrestle with whatever's in my head, my body language has become overtly aggressive and hostile... or at least it seems that way from the outside--inside, it's just restless energy that's become trapped.
> 
> i can't really identify it, or the connection itself, but it _is_ connected to my natural demeanor, which is to just stick my head in and say hello--to see what something is, without any negative intention. but both have to be tamped down because our culture doesn't really operate (outside of certain specialties, and without certain social niceties) in a way for that to be functional. aside from making the distinction between different visual cues for anxiety, does any of this seem similar to your "horsepower" analogy? energy that rebounds quickly in-and-out, that has to be modified to meet outside qualifiers, but can be "unhindered" once it becomes clear that those _outside qualifiers_ either aren't worth it, are or just a pile of contrived bullshit?
> 
> is tamping down your "H.P."--aside from genuinely trying to be nice, or trying to create a safe place for those that need it--another form of practicality? in the sense that *not reigning it in can result in a multitude of petty problems*, and so the reigning comes about as a way to cut the fat from your life, as opposed to a fear of feeling ostracized, or fear of "attack", from letting everything "hang out"?


Yes to the bolded. I cause myself more problems than I know what to do with if I'm not careful of how I handle others. 

It's a huge part of why I avoid interpersonal conflict. I generally tend to make a bigger mess of what's already tangled because I don't have a middle ground-- I'm either nice and relaxed or I'm in full HP mode-- which means I don't give a shit about feelings, I just want the fucking thing solved. 

As I'm sure you're aware, starting any conflict with a "fuck your feelings, let's solve this" attitude rarely makes it better. 



> bonus question: when you do "tamp" down your horsepower (you know, so that you can actually attempt a connection with another human being, or so that you can get that job... if these reasons apply to you at all), do you find yourself encircled in some idiot's game where they mistake your niceness for weakness? does this bring out a "sinner-saint" complex within yourself?


Absolutely. I temper my behavior around others to make sure I'm not causing conflict where none is needed. It makes my life easier and lets me focus on what matters. 

And YES, people do mistake my toned down, cruise-control mode for being a pushover. And then they push and I have to decide whether to run them the fuck over or let it slide. It really depends on which consequences I want to live with. 

Sometimes I am okay with being a bitch around others. Other times the level of new conflict it will introduce is simply not worth it. 

Does this bring about a sinner-saint complex in myself? No, not that I'm aware of. 

Once I've decided how to respond to someone pushing against me, that's it. I don't look back. I go forward and deal with the consequences; they're usually nothing I've haven't prepared myself for. 

But I do give myself time to decide which path to take because I know that once I choose, that's it. 




> another bonus question (because i think i can see it in you, in _identified_ 6's, and in myself, but it usually gets relegated to type 8): can you "feel" the other person in front of you--energy-wise? might seem like an odd question, but i notice there are people that really contain their own energy, and there are others that let it out and you can kind of feel it press up against you--feel it shove you--like they're trying to see if you'll wobble out of curiosity, or as if they're trying to make sure that things go their way...? is this something you notice in others, do you find yourself doing it--and if you do, is it something that you capitalize on and bring to the table in every interaction, or is it something that only comes out when you sense it in the other person?


I'm not really sure I understand what you're getting at...can you rephrase?


----------



## Coburn

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Marlowe
> you've never struck me as neurotic or reactive enough to be a 6. 3 makes a lot more sense for you (even as far as tritype is concerned, I could just as easily see you as 7 fixed)


Can you elaborate on why you feel three is the best fit for me?


----------



## Coburn

Sonny said:


> @Marlowe you always struck me as core 6, and at the least not core 1. Haven't read the thread so it's just a btw post.
> 
> Carry on =D


Thank you! But...who are you? I don't think we've ever talked. XD


----------



## Sonny

Marlowe said:


> Thank you! But...who are you? I don't think we've ever talked. XD


=O

You have a crap memory. 

Via mafia.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Marlowe said:


> Can you elaborate on why you feel three is the best fit for me?


mostly
- Id, but not as blatantly Id as a 7 or 8
- strategic, but not in an anxious sort of way like a 5 or 6 (the strategic nature of 3 is significantly underestimated)
- general vibe of a 3

wish I could be more specific. I should read more of your posts/interact with you more


----------



## Donovan

mimesis said:


> Whenever a passion/vice or fear controls you, or becomes self-defeating it can be considered counter productive or a liability, but this can be said of all types. In that respect 'fear being controlled' can be a 'weakness' (too) if you will. With regard to 'universal' anxiety, I'm sure most of us can relate to the 9 fears/desires to some extend. It's just that one sticks out, has predominant focus, or develops as a fixation (and way of life). Not 'all' anxiety indicates type 6, but I don't think there is anything such thing as *the* 6 Anxiety, just like the ego or 'personality' is not a permanent state. Whether it is 'checking the other out' or paranoid delusion, it's both anxiety (and very 'real' to the person), and either way, there is no (Holy) Faith.



finding another avenue to deal with a fixation, that continues the depth of the fixation itself, with no relief ever gained because the person in question relies on a different variation of the very same mental groove that started the circular process to begin with (and because of this, never finds "faith"/etc.)--is bad? 


you're right, it is bad--but not wholly. the only negative side is that it can keep someone in a familiar place, and because of this stop them from becoming who they could have been. but it's also a completely necessary (and human) step to rely on something so utterly until it finally breaks; that's the point something else can be reached for--the only moment someone is _truly_ willing to step out of a piece of themselves, and into something else. 


so yeah, all of this stuff isn't actually a good thing (extreme identification that is--there _are_ upsides to all of the fixations), but once a person has identified--which we all will--they'll kind of live in it for the rest of their lives unless something "terrible" enough happens to shake them out of it, or they become unbalanced through over-identification and topple (with a lot of gray in between)... so even though it _can_ have a negative connotation, it (and everything else along the spectrum, lol) is necessary, and in its own right, "right". 


... that's how i see it at least; makes the episodes in one's own life, and those in the lives of others, seem inaccurate under the harsh social light they're usually cast in. 


just a side-note to your side-note, ;P.


----------



## Coburn

Sonny said:


> =O
> 
> You have a crap memory.
> 
> Via mafia.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I thought your name was spelled Sunny.


----------



## Donovan

Grau the Great said:


> Forget what you've read from experts or authors or whoever the hell else. In my opinion, what I've bolded is a better demonstration of counterphobic 6 thinking than any of the dumbass descriptions floating around out there online.
> 
> Straight-up anxiety or worry doesn't really describe a 6 mindset, especially a cp6. In fact, several other types, 1s, 2s, and 3s among them, are far more likely to "worry" openly than a cp6. What you're talking about later on in that same post, with playing through possibilities of scenarios and planning for them, is *exactly* what cp6 'anxiety' means. It's the wrong fucking word they picked for it (preparedness would be better imo), but unfortunately we're stuck with it. 'Seeing how things play out' and planning ahead for contingencies/problems is very typical of Sixes, and a blindspot for both 1s and 8s, who tend to be overconfident in their singleminded, linear interpretation of something.


 @Marlowe, ^ this. 


i can relate a lot to what you've written--the misconception of anxiety, "doubt", and all the fun "what-ifs". 

the only thing i can't fully relate to is the "i'm always on top of everything and everyone--no worry (or need for 'preparedness') exists in my mind"-outlook. the only time anything close to this comes about is when i'm stretching myself too thin, and i sink into 3-mania-land... 

but even then, just as my anxiety/preparedness doesn't come about from doubt (or at least conscious doubt), my own "everything's ok"-attitude isn't really a belief that everything's truly ok--everything's terrible, --but more so that i will _will it_ to be ok, so there's no reason to worry. it's more like not feeling anything (3-like deception), as opposed to feeling confident/fearful. feelings aren't involved--mine or others, to an extent--because my own aren't making their way to the surface to begin with, and when that happens, how can everything not be ok? 


would you say that your own attitude comes about more from self-deception + stress (in my opinion, it's one thing to be confident, another to be so "great" [no offense, :wink:] that i don't need to see where i'm going), or from a more positive-triad and/or id connection?


----------



## Scelerat

Marlowe said:


> It sounds like you purposefully test people around you to gauge where they stand in relation to you.
> 
> I take it that's a way of building structure? Determining what can and can't be relied on?
> 
> 
> Personally, it's not something I completely relate to. I don't really test my environment that way. I just move through my environment and when it does fuck me over I adjust accordingly.
> 
> 
> Also, can you relate more on your relationship with internal, self-directed doubt? You talked about your intelligence, but I'd love more on that type of self-oriented questioning, if you have the time.


It's a way of mapping my environment. If you drop some info to someone and you notice it comes back through a given set of channels, you know that you can use those to your advantage. If you know that someone responds in a given way to certain verbal signals, those can be used if you need an edge later. 

The internal doubt, is in essence me comparing my present self, to the self that I could have been if I'd done everything right. It's putting way too much pressure on myself, and assuming a starting point that was much better than the one I started from. It's something I'm working on coming to terms with. If you can ask more specifically it would help.


----------



## Coburn

@Donovan

Are the questions in your last post addressed to me or Grau?


----------



## Coburn

Grau the Great said:


> Forget what you've read from experts or authors or whoever the hell else. In my opinion, what I've bolded is a better demonstration of counterphobic 6 thinking than any of the dumbass descriptions floating around out there online.
> 
> Straight-up anxiety or worry doesn't really describe a 6 mindset, especially a cp6. In fact, several other types, 1s, 2s, and 3s among them, are far more likely to "worry" openly than a cp6. What you're talking about later on in that same post, with playing through possibilities of scenarios and planning for them, is *exactly* what cp6 'anxiety' means. It's the wrong fucking word they picked for it (preparedness would be better imo), but unfortunately we're stuck with it. 'Seeing how things play out' and planning ahead for contingencies/problems is very typical of Sixes, and a blindspot for both 1s and 8s, who tend to be overconfident in their singleminded, linear interpretation of something.


That makes more sense for me.

I think a huge part of the reason I plan nowadays is because I hit a point several years ago where what I thought I could do and what I could do did not line up. I was overconfident in my own abilities, and I fucked up because of it. 

It was a huge turning point in my life for me. I'm now much more aware of my own limits, and what I can and cannot do. I don't rush into things with blind confidence anymore because I know that as much as I'd like to be Superman, I'm not. 

Doesn't mean I can't win every outcome. Just means I don't rush into things without a plan.

On the good side, I am very, very aware of what I can and cannot do. So I don't have any self doubt about my own abilities and limitations. But it does piss people off when they try to tell me to do something I know I can't do, only for me to tell them I can't do it. They think I'm digging my heels in and refusing to "stretch myself" and go outside my comfort zone.

LOL.

I tell people I have a wide comfort zone. But there's a difference between a comfort zone and a "i don't actually know enough about that, but if you want me to try it and fuck it up anyways, I will" zone. 

Generally the solution is they take the time to teach me or give me more info on the problem they want me to do (yay for Te-dom! always needs more info), and then I go and give it a try. 

On a side note, I seem to be okay with uncertainty. Yeah, it's not my favorite solution to a situation, but I've learned that sometimes that's just the way things work. It's okay with me provided I can accept the uncertainty as an unchanging variable-- which means the uncertainty must always be uncertain.


----------



## Coburn

Scelerat said:


> The internal doubt, is in essence me comparing my present self, to the self that I could have been if I'd done everything right. It's putting way too much pressure on myself, and assuming a starting point that was much better than the one I started from. It's something I'm working on coming to terms with. If you can ask more specifically it would help.


So there's a perfect world version of yourself you're racing to keep equal to? Or beat?

And that perfect world self starts from birth?


----------



## Coburn

@Grau the Great

So it's possible to be a six even if I don't relate to the "existential anxiety" and "nameless terrors" mentioned in @Cosmic Orgasm 's six thread link?


----------



## Scelerat

Marlowe said:


> So there's a perfect world version of yourself you're racing to keep equal to? Or beat?
> 
> And that perfect world self starts from birth?


In a sense. There is a version of me that does not have to concern itself with some of the things that I do, so once/if I become that perfect world version, my concerns go away.


----------



## Coburn

Scelerat said:


> In a sense. There is a version of me that does not have to concern itself with some of the things that I do, so once/if I become that perfect world version, my concerns go away.


What are the things you have to concern yourself with that this perfect version doesn't? External tasks or personal character traits?


----------



## Scelerat

Marlowe said:


> What are the things you have to concern yourself with that this perfect version doesn't? External tasks or personal character traits?


The Perfect Version doesn't have to concern himself with being the second best candidate, because he's always the #1 candidate. 

The perfect version doesn't share some of my more detrimental character traits, and flaws. 

Your question in a sense if flawed, because it's both existing in a chicken-egg paradigm.


----------



## Coburn

Scelerat said:


> The Perfect Version doesn't have to concern himself with being the second best candidate, because he's always the #1 candidate.
> 
> The perfect version doesn't share some of my more detrimental character traits, and flaws.
> 
> Your question in a sense if flawed, because it's both existing in a chicken-egg paradigm.


Well that's to be expected. I'm asking about something I don't fully understand. 

It's interesting how your ideal focuses on removing rather than gaining.


----------



## Scelerat

Marlowe said:


> Well that's to be expected. I'm asking about something I don't fully understand.
> 
> It's interesting how your ideal focuses on removing rather than gaining.


It's both, it's removing negative traits and increasing positive traits. Most traits are a lot like the various genetic traits that come with something like stronger teeth in exchange for weaker bones, or better memory in exchange for a higher risk of Alzheimer.

For instance, being able to absorb and learn material really quickly is a boon, but it also means that I tend to learn something quick and discard it. 

Being very curious by nature, also means I have a higher odds of being distracted away from something that I've made an investment in. 

Having the ability to make rapid decisions, also means I have a higher chance of making a fast decision without considering all options and pitfalls. 

So it's more about seeing the negative aspects in traits than anything else I think.


----------



## Donovan

Marlowe said:


> @_Donovan_
> 
> Are the questions in your last post addressed to me or Grau?



they were for you, but your later post kind of answered them.


----------



## Grau the Great

Marlowe said:


> @_Grau the Great_
> 
> So it's possible to be a six even if I don't relate to the "existential anxiety" and "nameless terrors" mentioned in @_Cosmic Orgasm_ 's six thread link?


Absolutely. As I said in my last post, a lot of the words used to describe the 6's mindset--"insecurity" and "anxiety" being the two most common--aren't very helpful for understanding the type. They're words with decidedly negative connotations. A better way of looking at it is a focus on *clarity*. More than other types, Sixes want things to be clear. Here's something you wrote in your reply to me:



> Generally the solution is they take the time to teach me or give me more info on the problem they want me to do (yay for Te-dom! always needs more info), and then I go and give it a try.
> 
> On a side note, I seem to be okay with uncertainty. Yeah, it's not my favorite solution to a situation, but I've learned that sometimes that's just the way things work. It's okay with me provided I can accept the uncertainty as an unchanging variable-- which means the uncertainty must always be uncertain.


In all honesty, you wrote it here yourself far better than I ever could. Needing uncertainty itself to be a certain, unchanging variable is *exactly* the outlook that defines the type.

'Existential anxiety' is just an attempt to convey the type's core desire for clarity, but again, the word is one with other (negative) connotations. It's similar to how type 1s are consistently referred to as having an "internal critic", almost like an overdeveloped, very strident conscience. Despite being a very common description, it is also a poor one, and it kept me from realizing my own core type for the longest time, because like most core 1s I don't have voices in my head telling me what's right, wrong, or moral. Same principle applies to Sixes and references to "anxiety". It's an inaccurate description that lots of people seize on due to its simplicity. Most Sixes don't have existential anxiety or ennui xD, the same way most 1s don't consciously evaluate the morality of their actions.


----------



## Sina

@_Marlowe_


> It's okay with me provided I can accept the uncertainty as an unchanging variable-- which means the uncertainty must always be uncertain.


i'll be brief-ish. i have a migraine.

uncertainty must always be uncertain ( LOFL )= surely, it's looking for certainty ..an unchanging uncertainty is analogous to certainty. pretty.... fuckin straightforward there. 

also, a lot of "what if" ing and pre-emptive preparedness is pretty much gearing up for 'nameless terrors', melodramatic phrasing aside. you get the point. :3 very contrary to core 8, considering that's the only other type on the table. 

insecurity manifests differently within a type. not every 6 doubts their own intelligence. my best friend certainly doesn't. he has a JD and MBA, runs a successful hotel chain and doesn't doubt his intelligence or professional competence. i am sure some 6s here can attest to not doubting their own acumen. 

you say that


> Outside of my interpersonal relationships, I don't self-doubt.


why the emphasis on trouble-shooting and what-if (ing)? that's a good example of doubt. you may not doubt your intelligence or competence (professional) and have very strong will, which is by no means exclusive to any one type, though all this internal mental chatter indicates a search for clarity. clarity-seeking and doubt exist hand in hand.


> I know your thread mentioned groundless fears-- a sort of nameless, directionless menace that intends harm but can't be stopped.


you've taken it very literally. the key is ..read grau's post. not up to reiterating the same point. 



> Unless I'm relating that to life as a concept, it doesn't really translate. Even then, it seems like a pretty weak translation to me. Sure, life is out to fuck me over. But it's a fact, not a fear. I don't worry when or how...so long as I know my strength of will persists, I have no fear of being defeated. Every fuck over is simply and opportunity for me to make a comeback. I simply cannot be defeated. It's not a concept that computes, probably because it's not an acceptable outcome.
> 
> Maybe that seems contradictory to my fear to fail to achieve my outcome. It doesn't feel contradictory.


that's exactly what it is -a general outlook or approach to life. your very approach to life involves questioning whether you can overcome or not. that is your deepest fear-- failing in a way that you don't end up overcoming obstacles or whatever that are necessary to overcome. i am quoting here. if it translates when you relate to life as a concept- it pretty much fuckin translates- in the most meaningful way it possibly could for a cp 6.

you hit the nail on the head there.

it is an undeniable contradiction, whether it 'feels' that way or not. obviously if you fear not achieving the outcome of gaining mastery over life or overcoming what should be overcome, it means you doubt your ability to do so on some conscious level, whether or not you experience it as self-doubt commonly understood. this is not about professional competence or individual instances of problem solving or conquering difficulties. it's about a general outlook on life where not only do you consider it a fact that life will fuck you over, you recognize the importance of engaging your strong will and determination to keep life from fucking over ,and at the same time, have the deep fear that you may not succeed at this or that you may get pushed around . This is counterphobia in a nutshell. 1) seeing life in adversarial terms 2) wanting to "move against" it so it doesn't crush you, while doubting whether you can achieve this and knowing that there's no other option but to counter that - doubt- by taking action. 

that is only like 8 in the oppositional orientation to life. the rest is all cp6. also, 8s don't walk around expecting life to fuck them over and bracing themselves for the challenge. for the 8, it's "life has fucked me over" at some point in early childhood or an abstract pervasive sense of having been wronged that's a part of their psyche ever since they can remember. it's a wound from the past. yes, they move "against" like cp 6s but there is none of the mental preparedness and doubt regarding whether they would succeed at achieving that outcome or not. in fact, that's a blindspot for the type. i said earlier that they view themselves as larger than potential challenges. your thought process is not that of a core 8, despite behavioural similarities, not even when taking variants into account.

in essence, if you know you can't be defeated, why on earth do you fear that outcome? you can't get more contradictory than that on this particular point. and, it's no peripheral point. it's a pivotal one.

as i said earlier, counterphobia is a general outlook on life and handling it. many authors talk about cp6s being very unaware of their internal anxiety (certainty/clarity seeking tendencies). 

no real evidence of core 8, from you, anywhere on this thread. 

p.s. analysis paralysis is more an issue with phobic 6s. cp6s are far more risk taking and can jump in too fast too soon, push too hard much like 8s. naranjo also talks about the "over-certainty" of cp6s where they're unwilling to acknowledge opposing viewpoints since they are moving away from fear and towards surety by taking direct action.


----------



## Coburn

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> i'll be brief-ish. i have a migraine.
> 
> uncertainty must always be uncertain ( LOFL )= surely, it's looking for certainty ..an unchanging uncertainty is analogous to certainty. pretty.... fuckin straightforward there.


Hahaha. True. 



> also, a lot of "what if" ing and pre-emptive preparedness is pretty much gearing up for 'nameless terrors', melodramatic phrasing aside. you get the point. :3 very contrary to core 8, considering that's the only other type on the table.


In perspective, I think it was the dramatic language that threw me off. I don't tend to read melodramatic prose well. 



> insecurity manifests differently within a type. not every 6 doubts their own intelligence. my best friend certainly doesn't. he has a JD and MBA, runs a successful hotel chain and doesn't doubt his intelligence or professional competence. i am sure some 6s here can attest to not doubting their own acumen.
> 
> you say that
> 
> why the emphasis on trouble-shooting and what-if (ing)? that's a good example of doubt. you may not doubt your intelligence or competence (professional) and have very strong will, which is by no means exclusive to any one type, though all this internal mental chatter indicates a search for clarity. clarity-seeking and doubt exist hand in hand.


Hmm...to be honest, I never considered trouble-shooting or what-if questioning as something related to doubt, specifically self-doubt. It's not an issue of questioning my ability to handle a situation...it's a matter of just seeing what happens. It's interesting. It's fun to think about, provided it's not done in excess or prevents me from actually handling a situation.

It's like playing a mental puzzle-- or designing websites. You change this, you get that. You change that, you get this. 

It's just interesting at the end of the day. I rarely have any true emotional attachment to my what if thinking outside of curiosity. And personal amusement. Some of my mental imagery is fucking ridiculous. 



> you've taken it very literally. the key is ..read grau's post. not up to reiterating the same point.


Like I said before, probably a language problem.



> that's exactly what it is -a general outlook or approach to life. your very approach to life involves questioning whether you can overcome or not. that is your deepest fear-- failing in a way that you don't end up overcoming obstacles or whatever that are necessary to overcome. i am quoting here. if it translates when you relate to life as a concept- it pretty much fuckin translates- in the most meaningful way it possibly could for a cp 6.


Yeah...the fear for me extends from the fact that sometimes I'm just tired and don't feel like fighting. I want to close my eyes and say "i can sit this round out. it won't mean much in the long run." But I don't know that. 

Also, giving in once gives a person a mental window to give in the next time. And the next time. It's a slippery slope. Once you become okay with doing it once, you become okay with doing it again. Like a tear in the fabric of a shirt...if you let it persist, it grows bigger and bigger.

Anyways, I am sometimes afraid that I'll hit a point where I simply say "i'm sitting this fight out" and choose to be lazy just once. And then I'll say "well that wasn't so bad, the world didn't explode" and then do it again in another situation. And again and again until I find myself sitting out most battles and just living in total comfort and acceptance of how life is.

Which is why I have a tendency to push myself to the limits of what I can handle. I take on as much as possible because any sort of relaxation is akin to laziness for me. 

I'm not as bad as I used to be. I used to over commit, but that's another way life fucks you over because then you don't actually get everything done. 

It's just another mental game.



> you hit the nail on the head there.
> 
> it is an undeniable contradiction, whether it 'feels' that way or not. obviously if you fear not achieving the outcome of gaining mastery over life or overcoming what should be overcome, it means you doubt your ability to do so on some conscious level, whether or not you experience it as self-doubt commonly understood. this is not about professional competence or individual instances of problem solving or conquering difficulties. it's about a general outlook on life where not only do you consider it a fact that life will fuck you over, you recognize the importance of engaging your strong will and determination to keep life from fucking over ,and at the same time, have the deep fear that you may not succeed at this or that you may get pushed around . This is counterphobia in a nutshell. 1) seeing life in adversarial terms 2) wanting to "move against" it so it doesn't crush you, while doubting whether you can achieve this and knowing that there's no other option but to counter that - doubt- by taking action.


Counter doubt by taking action...that makes sense. I would rather make a decision than no decision at all. Even if the decision I make is not necessarily the most informed or well-rounded choice. I can adjust as I go along-- just so long as I'm moving forward. 



> that is only like 8 in the oppositional orientation to life. the rest is all cp6. also, 8s don't walk around expecting life to fuck them over and bracing themselves for the challenge. for the 8, it's "life has fucked me over" at some point in early childhood or an abstract pervasive sense of having been wronged that's a part of their psyche ever since they can remember. it's a wound from the past. yes, they move "against" like cp 6s but there is none of the mental preparedness and doubt regarding whether they would succeed at achieving that outcome or not. in fact, that's a blindspot for the type. i said earlier that they view themselves as larger than potential challenges. your thought process is not that of a core 8, despite behavioural similarities, not even when taking variants into account.
> 
> in essence, if you know you can't be defeated, why on earth do you fear that outcome? you can't get more contradictory than that on this particular point. and, it's no peripheral point. it's a pivotal one.


I fear that outcome because I know I'm not Superman. I'm not perfect. I'm made of flesh and bone and I have a mental limit. And if it were easy to overcome life's fuck overs, there would be a lot of people in the world living very different lives. 

If billions of other people can be tripped up, it's possible for it to happen to me as well. I'm not an idiot; I don't pretend to be the great exception to the rule. I am just aware of the fact that if I don't keep vigilant about it I'll probably end up in the same boat as most other people. 



> as i said earlier, counterphobia is a general outlook on life and handling it. many authors talk about cp6s being very unaware of their internal anxiety (certainty/clarity seeking tendencies).
> 
> no real evidence of core 8, from you, anywhere on this thread.
> 
> p.s. analysis paralysis is more an issue with phobic 6s. cp6s are far more risk taking and can jump in too fast too soon, push too hard much like 8s. naranjo also talks about the "over-certainty" of cp6s where they're unwilling to acknowledge opposing viewpoints since they are moving away from fear and towards surety by taking direct action.


Got it. 

The only time I have analysis paralysis is when the choices produce absolutely no different outcome and I have no personal bias towards either choice.

Like some mornings I simply don't know if I want bacon or cereal.


----------



## Coburn

@Cosmic Orgasm

Also, hope your migraine clears up soon. Sorry to hear you have that.


----------



## Coburn

Well I think what @Grau the Great @Cosmic Orgasm @Donovan @Scelerat @Figure @Animal and everyone else has said makes sense.

CP six does make more sense. It also explains a lot of those small mental and habitual inconsistencies that no other type could explain. Such as why I am always compelled to sit facing as many entrances/exits as possible when I'm in a public restaurant/environment. XD

Or how I can have a me vs. life mentality without being an eight. Although I've known for a long time I'm not an eight, I've always had trouble explaining my eightish behavior through other types (one and three).


The funny thing is, I don't feel any particularly different. I felt like I had to mentally weave all my behaviors through types one and three to make everything make sense. For this, I don't feel like I have to. It all kind of lines up pretty well without much mental hoop jumping. Sure, I'm still not grasping that whole fear/doubt thing...but like @Grau the Great said, it's probably more a language choice than anything that's causing that miscommunication. 

Seeking clarity and being prepared makes more sense for me. It also meshes well with my Te-- which is always focused on having as much clarity about situations as possible before making decisions. 

Huh.

*
EDIT: On a related note, any guess about my wing?*


----------



## Sina

@_Marlowe_

w5


takes a dizzying headache to finally draw brevity out of me lmfao.
thanks and btw...very educational exchange. have more to say. next time.


----------



## Arya

Marlowe said:


> @_Grau the Great_
> 
> So it's possible to be a six even if I don't relate to the "existential anxiety" and "nameless terrors" mentioned in @_Cosmic Orgasm_ 's six thread link?


I would say that misses the entire point of being a six if you can't relate at all. Six anxiety is not about anything in specific. Six anxiety comes from the internalized message that the world cannot possibly support them, and then they choose things in their life to put that anxiety on. It's when the six integrates to nine and reconnects to the world that the existential anxiety begins to go away. The biggest fear for a six is that the world cannot support them, so they spend a lot of time looking around for answers to the confusion around them to find something solid that looks like it can support them. They're cerebral types mainly because they have no bodily connection to their surroundings. They look to their minds to answer all of the confusing dilemmas in the world, when what they really need is that gut instinctual connectedness that can connect them more to reality. And that gets rid of the endless doubting that causes them to feel like they're are drowning in a sea of confusion without any support. CP sixes merely try to bury all of that and pretend like it isn't affecting them. They've muted how much that fear can register in their subconscious, but it's definitely there. They certainly aren't just looking for clarity. They're looking for clarity to find the support that seems so elusive. Sometimes I feel like a floating head in space. There will be nothing in my life to be anxious about but I'll still feel lost and completely unsupported, unless I physically ground myself in the world around me again. Then I feel like I'm being supported again and the confusion disappears. That's coming from a slightly more phobic perspective, but the only difference between a phobic six and a cp six is that the phobic six has more awareness of their own ungroundedness and anxiety, and they're more likely to hide than face things.


----------



## Scelerat

Marlowe said:


> CP six does make more sense. It also explains a lot of those small mental and habitual inconsistencies that no other type could explain. Such as why I am always compelled to sit facing as many entrances/exits as possible when I'm in a public restaurant/environment.


Personally, I tend to sit with my back against the wall, with as much of a full view in front of me as possible.


----------



## Animal

Scelerat said:


> Personally, I tend to sit with my back against the wall, with as much of a full view in front of me as possible.


Me too.

Might have evolved from being chased and tortured in school in my case, among other childhood issues, although I think this behavior is instinctual for many people. Unless I'm a cp-6 in a 4-suit. roud:


----------



## Animal

Marlowe said:


> The funny thing is, I don't feel any particularly different. I felt like I had to mentally weave all my behaviors through types one and three to make everything make sense. For this, I don't feel like I have to. It all kind of lines up pretty well without much mental hoop jumping.


This is how I felt when I typed at 4. There was hoop-jumping and justification needed for 3, 5, and 8, but with 4, I have yet to sit down and 'explain why.' My answer at first, when people asked, was, "you'll see it eventually if I'm right, and if I'm wrong, I'll see it eventually." It was just _right_. And any time I question it, I find out it's more right than I thought, and more and more.. etc. I have to work harder to think my way out of it than to just say "it is so."



> Sure, I'm still not grasping that whole fear/doubt thing...but like @_Grau the Great_ said, it's probably more a language choice than anything that's causing that miscommunication.


I had a similar issue with 4 too. I don't relate to colloquial 'envy' in some ways. I want to be my ideal self, but I don't want to be someone else. I envy a whole different life, and feel a sense of longing and this thing lacking from my life, but I don't look at other people and feel "I want to be her." This is more complicated but I won't clog up the thread with this stuff. 

Point being, definitions and meanings had to be cleared up. In my case it was a matter of language choices anyhow. I know there are people who on this thread who don't think I'm a 4 roud: but that's my perspective & experience for what its worth.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> Me too.
> 
> Might have evolved from being chased and tortured in school in my case, among other childhood issues, although I think this behavior is instinctual for many people. Unless I'm a cp-6 in a 4-suit. roud:


I think it is kind of instinctual, although I'm not sure I always to that myself.


----------



## Coburn

Arya said:


> I would say that misses the entire point of being a six if you can't relate at all. Six anxiety is not about anything in specific. Six anxiety comes from the internalized message that the world cannot possibly support them, and then they choose things in their life to put that anxiety on. It's when the six integrates to nine and reconnects to the world that the existential anxiety begins to go away. The biggest fear for a six is that the world cannot support them, so they spend a lot of time looking around for answers to the confusion around them to find something solid that looks like it can support them. They're cerebral types mainly because they have no bodily connection to their surroundings. They look to their minds to answer all of the confusing dilemmas in the world, when what they really need is that gut instinctual connectedness that can connect them more to reality. And that gets rid of the endless doubting that causes them to feel like they're are drowning in a sea of confusion without any support. CP sixes merely try to bury all of that and pretend like it isn't affecting them. They've muted how much that fear can register in their subconscious, but it's definitely there. They certainly aren't just looking for clarity. They're looking for clarity to find the support that seems so elusive. Sometimes I feel like a floating head in space. There will be nothing in my life to be anxious about but I'll still feel lost and completely unsupported, unless I physically ground myself in the world around me again. Then I feel like I'm being supported again and the confusion disappears. That's coming from a slightly more phobic perspective, but the only difference between a phobic six and a cp six is that the phobic six has more awareness of their own ungroundedness and anxiety, and they're more likely to hide than face things.


Yeah, I don't experience that. I am not a floating head in a sea of confusion. Not ever.

I also don't ever struggle with feeling grounded or detached from reality.

And I don't feel unsupported. I'm not even sure how I would go about looking for support?

From what you've read, what type(s) would you suggest I look at?


----------



## Coburn

@Arya

I re-translated "nameless terror" to mean "named enemy." Which I call life.

Too far a stretch for a six?


----------



## Paradigm

Marlowe said:


> On a side note, I seem to be okay with uncertainty. Yeah, it's not my favorite solution to a situation, but I've learned that sometimes that's just the way things work. It's okay with me provided I can accept the uncertainty as an unchanging variable-- which means the uncertainty must always be uncertain.


Same here. Likewise, I'm pretty darn okay with feeling anxiety. A lot of the 6 descriptions say 6s are all like "ARGH ANXIETY, CRUSH IT" but I'm just like, "Yup. Anxiety happens." I _do not_ "fear fear."

Admittedly, I'm more in tune to my anxiety for various reasons, and had to accept it at an earlier age.



Grau the Great said:


> Most Sixes don't have existential anxiety or ennui xD, the same way most 1s don't consciously evaluate the morality of their actions.


Mildly confused what you mean here. The anxiety of 6 is existential by definition (IMO, I guess). Do you mean 6s aren't all conscious of their anxiety? Or maybe that they don't consciously dwell on existential issues by default? I'd agree with both of those, if so.


----------



## mimesis

Donovan said:


> finding another avenue to deal with a fixation, that continues the depth of the fixation itself, with no relief ever gained because the person in question relies on a different variation of the very same mental groove that started the circular process to begin with (and because of this, never finds "faith"/etc.)--is bad?
> 
> 
> you're right, it is bad--but not wholly. the only negative side is that it can keep someone in a familiar place, and because of this stop them from becoming who they could have been. but it's also a completely necessary (and human) step to rely on something so utterly until it finally breaks; that's the point something else can be reached for--the only moment someone is _truly_ willing to step out of a piece of themselves, and into something else.
> 
> 
> so yeah, all of this stuff isn't actually a good thing (extreme identification that is--there _are_ upsides to all of the fixations), but once a person has identified--which we all will--they'll kind of live in it for the rest of their lives unless something "terrible" enough happens to shake them out of it, or they become unbalanced through over-identification and topple (with a lot of gray in between)... so even though it _can_ have a negative connotation, it (and everything else along the spectrum, lol) is necessary, and in its own right, "right".
> 
> 
> ... that's how i see it at least; makes the episodes in one's own life, and those in the lives of others, seem inaccurate under the harsh social light they're usually cast in.
> 
> 
> just a side-note to your side-note, ;P.


Yes I agree, except that I didn't attach a value judgement to it, like being necessary good or bad, right or wrong. I just focus on cause and effect. 

Fear is crucial for survival and to succesfully adapt to the world around us. On the other hand, as a fixation, it becomes embedded in the structure of the ego, as mental dispositions, conditioning perception and behavior, through self-reinforcing cognitive feedback loops, slowly alienating the person from his 'Essence' or 'true self'. If that is perhaps what you meant with 'what we could have been'?  Again, this applies to all types. 

A well known example of a reinforcing feedback loop, is the Self-Fulfilling Prophecy, when the security strategy that is 'prepared', actually provokes the predicted negative outcome. For instance, when the other person feels you don't have faith in him, one thing you can be certain of, is that he has nothing to lose. 



Selffulfilling Prophecy said:


> The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a _false_ definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.


Fwiw, I think all types have their own type of preparedness for the types of hazards they anticipate, depending on the focus of their fixation.


----------



## Grau the Great

Paradigm said:


> Mildly confused what you mean here. The anxiety of 6 is existential by definition (IMO, I guess). Do you mean 6s aren't all conscious of their anxiety? Or maybe that they don't consciously dwell on existential issues by default? I'd agree with both of those, if so.


Pretty much, yeah. I was referring to how 6s often aren't conscious of the desire to ground themselves and seek clarity, the same way 1s often aren't conscious of the standards they compare themselves (and everything else) against constantly, 8s aren't always aware of rejecting any feeling that might make them vulnerable, and so on. Descriptions often make these things seem like behaviors that are easy to identify with a bit of self-observation, but in my experience that's rarely the case, and it takes a lot more time and effort. That's what I was getting at.


----------



## Arya

Marlowe said:


> Yeah, I don't experience that. I am not a floating head in a sea of confusion. Not ever.
> 
> I also don't ever struggle with feeling grounded or detached from reality.
> 
> And I don't feel unsupported. I'm not even sure how I would go about looking for support?
> 
> From what you've read, what type(s) would you suggest I look at?


I don't really like typing people, but an instinctual type might be more likely. I can't say that you are definitely not a cp six who isn't at all aware of your own fears etc., but I thought it might help to get a perspective from a type six. I go between cp and phobia so I wouldn't really call myself one or the other, although I've always been very much aware of my own motivations and fears. I wouldn't try to shove yourself into any type or twist things to fit you though. Some times it just takes time before you get an aha that's definitely me without a doubt moment, so hopefully some of that helps. Some of my detachment does come from Ne I'm sure, but type sixes are definitely out of tune with their instinctual responses.


----------



## Arya

Marlowe said:


> @_Arya_
> 
> I re-translated "nameless terror" to mean "named enemy." Which I call life.
> 
> Too far a stretch for a six?


No, I don't think so. It's basically the same idea. Sixes have the fear that life won't support them/will go against them at every turn. It's called a nameless terror because it's not specific to any one thing, like being afraid of dogs etc. It's life in general.


----------



## Vanguard

For what its worth - I watched that video of you Marlowe, and you still come across as a 3 to me. Everyone in this thread is projecting their opinions of their type onto you. If you are in it to find the truth then go listen to the Naranjo 3 talk (find it yourself). The fact that you want to fit their opinions of you rather than trusting your own judgement is telling of your fixation. 

If you want to continue placating the egos here, do continue to listen to their advice.


----------



## Animal

Vanguard said:


> For what its worth - I watched that video of you Marlowe, and you still come across as a 3 to me. Everyone in this thread is projecting their opinions of their type onto you. If you are in it to find the truth then go listen to the Naranjo 3 talk (find it yourself). The fact that you want to fit their opinions of you rather than trusting your own judgement is telling of your fixation.
> 
> If you want to continue placating the egos here, do continue to listen to their advice.


Would it be better to placate your ego by listening to yours?


----------



## Vanguard

Animal said:


> Would it be better to placate your ego by listening to yours?


Yes.


----------



## Animal

Vanguard said:


> Yes.


Lol. Honest. I like it. :kitteh:


----------



## Coburn

Vanguard said:


> For what its worth - I watched that video of you Marlowe, and you still come across as a 3 to me. Everyone in this thread is projecting their opinions of their type onto you. If you are in it to find the truth then go listen to the Naranjo 3 talk (find it yourself). The fact that you want to fit their opinions of you rather than trusting your own judgement is telling of your fixation.
> 
> If you want to continue placating the egos here, do continue to listen to their advice.


It's certainly possible that there's some projection going on that I'm not aware of. 

I wasn't aware that I was negating my own judgement by listening to their perspectives, though. What gives you that impression?

And I've listened to everything on the three by Naranjo I could get my hands on without paying.  Reading materials as well, of course.

EDIT: that includes his breakdown of each type by instinct (which is where your first post descriptions come from), as well as verbal lectures by him on each type. 

I figure if I still have doubts about type three after almost a year of having listened to Naranjo and contemplated what he's said on the type, there must be some reason for my feeling.


----------



## Animal

Marlowe said:


> It's certainly possible that there's some projection going on that I'm not aware of.


There's always projection. Nobody's opinion is unbiased. That being said, not all opinions - or egos - are created equal. 

Watching your typing journey has been lovely, you're much more open minded than a lot of people I've seen on forum. Some people can mistake 'open minded' for 'too willing to accept other opinions/ not trusting yourself' and sometimes they are the same, but in your case, it appears to me, anyway, that you are just listening and taking it all in without obstinacy and hanging on to bs preconceived notions about types. I respect it. I was obstinate during some portions of my typing journey when facing things that were difficult in myself, so I always enjoy watching someone approach it maturely.


----------



## Coburn

Arya said:


> I don't really like typing people, but an instinctual type might be more likely. I can't say that you are definitely not a cp six who isn't at all aware of your own fears etc., but I thought it might help to get a perspective from a type six. I go between cp and phobia so I wouldn't really call myself one or the other, although I've always been very much aware of my own motivations and fears. I wouldn't try to shove yourself into any type or twist things to fit you though. Some times it just takes time before you get an aha that's definitely me without a doubt moment, so hopefully some of that helps. Some of my detachment does come from Ne I'm sure, but type sixes are definitely out of tune with their instinctual responses.


I kind of gave up looking for the aha moment. XD 

I'm glad you jumped into this, though. It does help add perspective. 

I don't know if I can say I'm aware of my own motivations and fears...but I am very aware of cause and effect, if that makes sense. When I find myself feeling or acting a certain way, it's very easy for me to internally trace the origins of my behavior. It's odd, though, because then I end up examining myself more like I would a third party person. I'm not really attached to myself in that regard.

For example, I had my coworker hand a project off to me the other day; when he asked how soon I could do it, I told him in 45 minutes, after I had completed my current project. He said okay and we went our separate ways. 45 minutes later I walked into his office and asked him a question about his project (the one I was to do). He told me he had done the project himself. 

That put me from zero to sixty in a heartbeat. 

I left his office, went back to my desk, and internally examined my own rage. I was curious why I felt that way; it wasn't the reaction I was expecting to have. It's like looking at a feeling I both have and don't have. I feel it, but it doesn't feel a part of me. I quickly realized that my anger came from the fact that he had given me responsibility and then taken it away without my consent. 

I can't remove the feeling of me being angry about it. But I am aware of it and its origins. And so I can compartmentalize it and ignore it. After all, him doing it was more efficient anyways; the project got done, there was now one thing less on both our plates, and I could move onto other things. 

That actually largely describes my relationship with most of my emotions...I am aware of them as though they were foreign creatures swimming around in my body. Causing me to feel things my head laughs at. 

I can't erase the feelings. I don't even try; no point, it doesn't work. I just use my head to neatly understand and package them away so I don't get distracted by them.

That of course doesn't apply to some areas...sometimes I am caught off guard and don't have time to catch myself. In which case the result is fireworks...I have a sharp tongue when I'm angry.

I usually end up telling myself afterwards to detach more...most arguments are a waste of time, and I'd rather be doing something more productive. 


On a similar note, I have days where I wake up and I can instantly sense that I'm feeling particularly short-tempered. There's no specific cause for it, it's just there. 

I've always related this to being kind of sp-oriented, as most of these are body feelings, and I am VERY in tune with my body and it's signals. 

I'm not sure if that's what you mean by motivations and fears?

If not, please let me know. 


Also, with regards to instinctual, I think the only possibility is a one. 

I'm definitely not a nine, and I'm about 99% sure I don't have the expansive, lustful energy of an eight. 

Let me re-read Naranjo's description of the type.


----------



## Coburn

Animal said:


> There's always projection. Nobody's opinion is unbiased. That being said, not all opinions - or egos - are created equal.
> 
> Watching your typing journey has been lovely, you're much more open minded than a lot of people I've seen on forum. Some people can mistake 'open minded' for 'too willing to accept other opinions/ not trusting yourself' and sometimes they are the same, but in your case, it appears to me, anyway, that you are just listening and taking it all in without obstinacy and hanging on to bs preconceived notions about types. I respect it. I was obstinate during some portions of my typing journey when facing things that were difficult in myself, so I always enjoy watching someone approach it maturely.


I don't see the point in being obstinate about typing. If I wanted to shove around my own opinion and ignore everybody else's, I wouldn't be asking for people's insights. Kind of defeats the purpose. XD


----------



## Arya

Marlowe said:


> I kind of gave up looking for the aha moment. XD
> 
> I'm glad you jumped into this, though. It does help add perspective.
> 
> I don't know if I can say I'm aware of my own motivations and fears...but I am very aware of cause and effect, if that makes sense. When I find myself feeling or acting a certain way, it's very easy for me to internally trace the origins of my behavior. It's odd, though, because then I end up examining myself more like I would a third party person. I'm not really attached to myself in that regard.
> 
> For example, I had my coworker hand a project off to me the other day; when he asked how soon I could do it, I told him in 45 minutes, after I had completed my current project. He said okay and we went our separate ways. 45 minutes later I walked into his office and asked him a question about his project (the one I was to do). He told me he had done the project himself.
> 
> That put me from zero to sixty in a heartbeat.
> 
> I left his office, went back to my desk, and internally examined my own rage. I was curious why I felt that way; it wasn't the reaction I was expecting to have. It's like looking at a feeling I both have and don't have. I feel it, but it doesn't feel a part of me. I quickly realized that my anger came from the fact that he had given me responsibility and then taken it away without my consent.
> 
> I can't remove the feeling of me being angry about it. But I am aware of it and its origins. And so I can compartmentalize it and ignore it. After all, him doing it was more efficient anyways; the project got done, there was now one thing less on both our plates, and I could move onto other things.
> 
> That actually largely describes my relationship with most of my emotions...I am aware of them as though they were foreign creatures swimming around in my body. Causing me to feel things my head laughs at.
> 
> I can't erase the feelings. I don't even try; no point, it doesn't work. I just use my head to neatly understand and package them away so I don't get distracted by them.
> 
> That of course doesn't apply to some areas...sometimes I am caught off guard and don't have time to catch myself. In which case the result is fireworks...I have a sharp tongue when I'm angry.
> 
> I usually end up telling myself afterwards to detach more...most arguments are a waste of time, and I'd rather be doing something more productive.
> 
> 
> On a similar note, I have days where I wake up and I can instantly sense that I'm feeling particularly short-tempered. There's no specific cause for it, it's just there.
> 
> I've always related this to being kind of sp-oriented, as most of these are body feelings, and I am VERY in tune with my body and it's signals.
> 
> I'm not sure if that's what you mean by motivations and fears?
> 
> If not, please let me know.
> 
> 
> Also, with regards to instinctual, I think the only possibility is a one.
> 
> I'm definitely not a nine, and I'm about 99% sure I don't have the expansive, lustful energy of an eight.
> 
> Let me re-read Naranjo's description of the type.


I could see type one after what you just wrote. You definitely seem to have rage, but at the same time, you seem to restrain it, which is what type ones are prone to doing. Not that sixes don't get angry. Sixes can get very angry, usually when they feel someone has taken advantage of their security somehow. I have a clear cp six manager at work, who will rage around the place if he feels his children have been taken advantage of in the slightest. He is VERY paranoid about their security. You also do seem to have some of the detachment of cerebral types though, the way you pull back and analyze yourself. For a type one the rage is going to be more about how the world isn't doing the right thing. I'm not a type one so I can't explain that in the same way as I can the type six, but that's the basic idea.


----------



## Sina

@_Marlowe_

I remember 3 was how I typed you for the longest time. It's the first time in the nearly 3 years I have been talking to you that 6 has stood out to me unequivocally. I have suggested 1 and 7 to you myself, early on. I like how almost no one who posted here had 6 as a go-to typing for you. I know nearly everyone who's participated, personally, and most of them were leaning ID core for your type. It's why I found this exchange so fuckin educational and informative. There's much to be learnt from it because CP 6 can look like any id type and Type 1. I have a very astute eye for typing, and it took me years to see CP 6 for you which is pretty fuckin intriguing to me. It's not everyday that this happens. Bitch, I told you ..you were a very interesting case. 

I consider this one solved. Now, you could go back and forth questioning your conclusion and that's fine by me. As far as I am concerned, this file's beyond closed. 

Oh and btw, I remembered you had considered core 6 at some point, which you apparently couldn't recall. I clicked on the first page of this while looking through some old posts, and I saw this:-



Marlowe said:


> I'll volunteer. I've been considering a core of six over my current type three.


 My memory's rarely off the mark. I was pretty sure you had brought it up and considered it. 


Moving on.


Like you, to me, it looks like things have finally settled and make total sense. Everything that wasn't explained, at the core, by 1 8 and 3 (and the whole life will fuck me over and is the nameless enemy given a name shit contradicts 3 at the core and the rest of the anti-3 argument was made by your own post very convincingly) now makes sense with Cp 6w5. 

It resolves the 8,1 and 3 confusion, perfectly, and not just for you. You damn well know your approach to morality and the whole inner critic deal (which is at the crux of what it means to be a 1) is completely out of line with core 1. On more than one occasion, you've said you don't have much of an inner critic. In fact, you make a point of it often. You've said multiple times that you'd put pride before morality. One works for you at a very superficial surfacey level. Besides the similarities that exist between 6 and 1 by virtue of being superego types and 6w5 and 1 by virtue of a competence focus, there is no valid argument for core 1 for you if you blatantly and repeatedly reject the core features of said type. And, I agree with that assessment. The whole life is the adversary deal is also not 1 nor is the clarity and certainty seeking, in your own words. If you're anywhere near honest with yourself, you know you are not a 1, and you're definitely not an 8. 

Your post on Naranjo's 3 description was cp6 as fuck. One would have to be fuckin brain dead to not see core reactive head type, at this point. :laughing: 

@_Vanguard_ has a chip on his shoulder about 6 typings. It's just residual butthurt from the time he was Six-ed on the 8 forum. About time you recover from that shit, buddy.  You're the one 'projecting' here. You haven't made a single valid argument for core 3 here or any kind of argument as to why cp6 doesn't work. Crying wolf ..I mean "projection" lofl on the part of people you disagree with lends no credence whatsoever to your abjectly non-existent point. 

It also reminds me of a certain someone Lmfao who got all pissy and thought you were being horribly misled, Marlowe. :crying: The whiteknighting is kinda kewt, though, I gotta say. I do have enough respect for your intelligence and self-assertion, that I am convinced you're perfectly capable of parsing bullshit from a well-considered argument, regardless of how you choose to type. You are not some toddler that was led around by the nose. In fact, I like that you are as capable as you are of confidently handling a debate or sensitive discussion of this nature. I sure enjoy a robust disagreement. 

And, I wanna take a second and thank @_Scelerat_ and @_Grau the Great_ for the thought-provoking contributions. There are very few cp6w5s around who type as such, and there are even fewer discussions on the type that help people understand what it's truly about, from observation and discussion. You can go ahead and change your type tomorrow for all I care, and yet, from where I am standing, it's very refreshing to see examples (esp women cp6w5s because you're probably the only self-typed one besides @_Chipps_ and @_braided pain_ afaik) of actual cp6s that are very ID-like (stereotypically yanno cus only dem id types can show strong will, determination, ambition, aggressiveness, competitiveness, insensitivity and single-mindedness in the pursuit of what they want). No type has a monopoly on being angry, critical and demanding. My exchange with you has helped my own understanding, tremendously. So, thanks for bringing up your typing and being as mature as you were about it. The forum has a long of history of Ates losing their shit over as much as being suggested Cp 6, so you gave it honest consideration, which was good to see. Besides Chipps, you're the only other person I know who was publicly offered a 6 typing and didn't go ballistic over it. :laughing: 

Lastly, part of the reason a lot of CP6s don't relate is the way "Support" is thrown around in descriptions. It gets interpreted as relying on others for emotional support or material support or whatever. You can't get through to a highly self-reliant person who'd rather break than develop a dependency on others by telling them they feel unsupported in life and 'look for support'. 
Supportedness here just means the quality of knowing that life is on your side and that you are capable of handling whatever it throws your away. True Courage (and Counterphobia is not the same as courage) comes from realizing that you are 'supported' by life, in other words, that it's not your enemy and isn't out to fuck you over. So, you can stop having the need for an enemy to fight and conquer your doubt about being able to defeat said enemy by constantly moving against it. 

I was talking to my cp6w5 friend this morning, and I jokingly asked him if he felt like a bobblehead weaving through the horrible confusing dilemmas of life, while feeling an intense need for some semblance of support. :laughing: Good laughs were had. So, you're right; partially, it's a language issue. Many descriptions (in fact, most of them) have a phobic bias, and phobics can describe the fixation in a way skewed by their own experiences, even if the fundamentals are right. They get lost in translation. 

Anyway, that was great fun. I had a good time.


----------



## Coburn

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I remember 3 was how I typed you for the longest time. It's the first time in the nearly 3 years I have been talking to you that 6 has stood out to me unequivocally. I have suggested 1 and 7 to you myself, early on. I like how almost no one who posted here had 6 as a go-to typing for you. I know nearly everyone who's participated, personally, and most of them were leaning ID core for your type. It's why I found this exchange so fuckin educational and informative. There's much to be learnt from it because CP 6 can look like any id type and Type 1. I have a very astute eye for typing, and it took me years to see CP 6 for you which is pretty fuckin intriguing to me. It's not everyday that this happens. Bitch, I told you ..you were a very interesting case.


It's not like I tried to make things complicated. 

Glad you enjoyed the process. This has by far been the most informative and comprehensive typing for me. My previous attempts had much less third person input. 



> I consider this one solved. Now, you could go back and forth questioning your conclusion and that's fine by me. As far as I am concerned, this file's beyond closed.


Well before you close the door, can you at least give me an idea on tri-type? I know it's got three and six in it...not so sure about id. 



> Oh and btw, I remembered you had considered core 6 at some point, which you apparently couldn't recall. I clicked on the first page of this while looking through some old posts, and I saw this:-
> 
> My memory's rarely off the mark. I was pretty sure you had brought it up and considered it.


Oooh, that. I thought you were referring to a point where you thought I had typed as a six. Which I have never done before.

Yeah, I've been quietly considering six for a couple months now. I just decided not to make it a huge focus in my typing this time around; I figured letting people reach their own conclusions based off what I wrote would be more beneficial. 



> Like you, to me, it looks like things have finally settled and make total sense. Everything that wasn't explained, at the core, by 1 8 and 3 (and the whole life will fuck me over and is the nameless enemy given a name shit contradicts 3 at the core and the rest of the anti-3 argument was made by your own post very convincingly) now makes sense with Cp 6w5.
> 
> It resolves the 8,1 and 3 confusion, perfectly, and not just for you. You damn well know your approach to morality and the whole inner critic deal (which is at the crux of what it means to be a 1) is completely out of line with core 1. On more than one occasion, you've said you don't have much of an inner critic. In fact, you make a point of it often. You've said multiple times that you'd put pride before morality. One works for you at a very superficial surfacey level. Besides the similarities that exist between 6 and 1 by virtue of being superego types and 6w5 and 1 by virtue of a competence focus, there is no valid argument for core 1 for you if you blatantly and repeatedly reject the core features of said type. And, I agree with that assessment. The whole life is the adversary deal is also not 1 nor is the clarity and certainty seeking, in your own words. If you're anywhere near honest with yourself, you know you are not a 1, and you're definitely not an 8.


I stated above in an earlier post, I already knew I wasn't an eight. Although I'm open to people suggesting it, it was never really on the table to begin with. I've done enough research on that type to know I'm not it. 

Thank you for reminding me about the lack of an inner critic. I had forgotten about that. Yes, that was one of my conflicts with the type one when I was a type one. I think the general response I got back from the one community was that I had let the inner critic have so much control over me that I no longer could tell the difference between me and the critic. 

I don't mind reading through Naranjo's description of it again, though. It's not like the world will explode if I do. 



> Your post on Naranjo's 3 description was cp6 as fuck. One would have to be fuckin brain dead to not see core reactive head type, at this point. :laughing:


Which post? Just so I have a frame of reference.



> Vanguard has a chip on his shoulder about 6 typings. It's just residual butthurt from the time he was Six-ed on the 8 forum. About time you recover from that shit, buddy.  You're the one 'projecting' here. You haven't made a single valid argument for core 3 here or any kind of argument as to why cp6 doesn't work. Crying wolf ..I mean "projection" lofl on the part of people you disagree with lends no credence whatsoever to your abjectly non-existent point.


When people offer their opinions, I do take into consideration how much of the conversation they've read, as well as how much information they bring to the table to back their claims. 

It's a Te thing.



> It also reminds me of a certain someone Lmfao who got all pissy and thought you were being horribly misled, Marlowe. :crying: The whiteknighting is kinda kewt, though, I gotta say.


HAHAHA. Oh my...it took me a full five minutes to realize who you were referring to. WOW, we really have been on this forum together for a long time. That was AGES ago.

Your memory is pretty damned impressive. 



> I do have enough respect for your intelligence and self-assertion, that I am convinced you're perfectly capable of parsing bullshit from a well-considered argument, regardless of how you choose to type. You are not some toddler that was led around by the nose. In fact, I like that you are as capable as you are of confidently handling a debate or sensitive discussion of this nature. I sure enjoy a robust disagreement.


Hahaha. Well, even if I was lead around, it doesn't really matter. If the typing is wrong, I'll be back in six months with new arguments for why I'm not a six. My brain takes to types like a pick axe to ice. It slowly works them over and finds the kinks.

If the typing's bad, it'll break with time. 



> And, I wanna take a second and thank @_Scelerat_ and @_Grau the Great_ for the thought-provoking contributions. There are very few cp6w5s around who type as such, and there are even fewer discussions on the type that help people understand what it's truly about, from observation and discussion. You can go ahead and change your type tomorrow for all I care, and yet, from where I am standing, it's very refreshing to see examples (esp women cp6w5s because you're probably the only self-typed one besides @_Chipps_ and @_braided pain_ afaik) of actual cp6s that are very ID-like (stereotypically yanno cus only dem id types can show strong will, determination, ambition, aggressiveness, competitiveness, insensitivity and single-mindedness in the pursuit of what they want). No type has a monopoly on being angry, critical and demanding. My exchange with you has helped my own understanding, tremendously. So, thanks for bringing up your typing and being as mature as you were about it. The forum has a long of history of Ates losing their shit over as much as being suggested Cp 6, so you gave it honest consideration, which was good to see. Besides Chipps, you're the only other person I know who was publicly offered a 6 typing and didn't go ballistic over it. :laughing:


Ha. I'm pretty low key about the enneagram in general.

Although if you'd recommended four or nine, there might have been some fireworks....XD



> Lastly, part of the reason a lot of CP6s don't relate is the way "Support" is thrown around in descriptions. It gets interpreted as relying on others for emotional support or material support or whatever. You can't get through to a highly self-reliant person who'd rather break than develop a dependency on others by telling them they feel unsupported in life and 'look for support'.
> Supportedness here just means the quality of knowing that life is on your side and that you are capable of handling whatever it throws your away. True Courage (and Counterphobia is not the same as courage) comes from realizing that you are 'supported' by life, in other words, that it's not your enemy and isn't out to fuck you over. So, *you can stop having the need for an enemy to fight* and conquer your doubt about being able to defeat said enemy by constantly moving against it.


Bolded. It won't happen. Ever. 

I was not built to exist outside of a battlefield. Life without enemies has no meaning. 

I've thought about that before, off and on over the last couple years (about not making everything into a fight between me and life), and it's literally a concept that does not compute. I could never do it. Even if I tried to live that way, I'd just know I was lying to myself.



> I was talking to my cp6w5 friend this morning, and I jokingly asked him if he felt like a bobblehead weaving through the horrible confusing dilemmas of life, while feeling an intense need for some semblance of support. :laughing: Good laughs were had. So, you're right; partially, it's a language issue. Many descriptions (in fact, most of them) have a phobic bias, and phobics can describe the fixation in a way skewed by their own experiences, even if the fundamentals are right. They get lost in translation.
> 
> Anyway, that was great fun. I had a good time.


Glad you enjoyed it!

I really to appreciate how helpful you've been to this process. Especially for bringing in more people to add insight in addition to providing your own. Oh, and also for challenging me to look at my previous typings. I think that did a lot. 

Pulling all those posts from when I was typed a one really added a lot of clarity. 

It's been informative and interesting.


----------



## Vanguard

Winky - its rare to see so many words written with such little substance behind them. Debate? You don't want to debate, you want to impose your warped mirror on those around you in order to feel less alone. The anonymity and respite forums like these grant are bound to attract broken souls, but they won't fill the wound you carry. The constant flitting, the use of smilies to make yourself more personable -it grates. Your posts don't offer insight, they muddle and confuse; reflections of your own turbulence. Pure haze creation, you are no seeker and never have been. 

Marlowe, you have 2 options - you can listen to Winky face, whose passive-aggressive helpfulness masks a deeper sense of malevolent hate & a fundamental lack of love that she is missing in her life and aims to re-create in artificial settings. Or you can cut the bullshit and find the answer within. You can become a seeker for the truth, or a hazer of reality like Winky.


----------



## Sina

Vanguard said:


> Winky - its rare to see so many words written with such little substance behind them. Debate? You don't want to debate, you want to impose your warped mirror on those around you in order to feel less alone. The anonymity and respite forums like these grant are bound to attract broken souls, but they won't fill the wound you carry. The constant flitting, the use of smilies to make yourself more personable -it grates. Your posts don't offer insight, they muddle and confuse; reflections of your own turbulence. Pure haze creation, you are no seeker and never have been.



LMFAO

Such adorable passive aggression there, tough guy.

You don't even have the balls to mention or quote ol 'Winky' ? Nice try, babe. Here's your "  ". Feel better? 

D'aww! (Aren't I soo..fuckin 'personable'?) 





> @Marlowe, you have 2 options - you can listen to Winky face, whose passive-aggressive helpfulness masks a deeper sense of malevolent hate & a fundamental lack of love that she is missing in her life and aims to re-create in artificial settings. Or you can cut the bullshit and find the answer within. You can become a seeker for the truth, or a hazer of reality like Winky.


Tsk...Very paranoid there... "malevolent hate and fundamental lack of love" ROFL "a hazer of reality" HAHAHAHA!

How cute. <3

I sure appreciate the attention! Keep it comin'.


----------



## Vanguard

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> LMFAO
> 
> Such adorable passive aggression there, tough guy.
> 
> You don't even have the balls to mention or quote ol 'Winky' ? Nice try, babe. Here's your "  ". Feel better?
> 
> D'aww! (Aren't I soo..fuckin 'personable'?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very paranoid there... "malevolent hate and fundamental lack of love" ROFL "a hazer of reality"
> How cute. <3
> 
> I sure appreciate the attention! Keep it comin'.


I'm glad you liked it, and no need to quote as you know who you are, Winky.


----------



## Sina

Vanguard said:


> I'm glad you liked it, and no need to quote as you know who you are, Winky.


----------



## Vanguard

Cosmic Orgasm said:


>


----------



## mimesis

miss Orgasm,:angry: I've been typed 6 publicly and I didn't go ballistic!










:frustrating::frustrating: :dry: Um...not being publicly reactive here, of course....or defensive.
I mean why would I be? ...some of my best friends are 6.
















carry on.

/irony


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vanguard said:


> The constant flitting, the use of smilies to make yourself more personable -it grates.


Personable? I thought she did that mostly to condescend. 

Not that I can read @Cosmic Orgasm's mind.

Sigh, the type 6 discussion here has been pretty interesting, but at some point my brain went "nope". Maybe I'll look at it again when I'm more awake.


----------



## Sina

Marlowe said:


> It's not like I tried to make things complicated.
> 
> Glad you enjoyed the process. This has by far been the most informative and comprehensive typing for me. My previous attempts had much less third person input.


I absolutely did.

We've had extensive discussions on your typing for a while now. And, I enjoyed the process.

I agree with this being the most productive use of your time where typing is concerned. It was a good discussion from start to finish, regardless of what type you walk away choosing.




> Well before you close the door, can you at least give me an idea on tri-type? I know it's got three and six in it...not so sure about id.



I am sure of the 3w4 fix. I am on the fence a little about 1 or 8, though I lean more 1w2 fix. I wouldn't rule out an 8 fix entirely though. What about you?



> Oooh, that. I thought you were referring to a point where you thought I had typed as a six. Which I have never done before.


No, I said you were considering the type not that you had categorically typed at 6.



> Yeah, I've been quietly considering six for a couple months now. I just decided not to make it a huge focus in my typing this time around; I figured letting people reach their own conclusions based off what I wrote would be more beneficial.


It's always a good idea to not limit the scope of a discussion early on, by stating specific type considerations. It makes for a more open discussion. 



> I stated above in an earlier post, I already knew I wasn't an eight. Although I'm open to people suggesting it, it was never really on the table to begin with. I've done enough research on that type to know I'm not it.


Ah, I see. I have nothing against people suggesting any type, especially 8 because behaviourally you have a truck load in common with 8. So, it's not an outlandish suggestion at all. In fact, I went over it myself because it was a plausible typing given positive outlook core wasn't an option for you. Image core was ruled out, and in large part, based on your own writings. CP 6w5 has also been suggested on the basis of your own extensive sharing of how you approach life, problems and more. @_kaleidoscope_ made a great point about the distinction between being competent and the image of competence, as in where relative value came to be placed. 




> Thank you for reminding me about the lack of an inner critic. I had forgotten about that. Yes, that was one of my conflicts with the type one when I was a type one. I think the general response I got back from the one community was that I had let the inner critic have so much control over me that I no longer could tell the difference between me and the critic.


All superego types, and the superego active in every individual functions as an inner critic. But, for Type 1s, it's a relentless pervasive inner voice that's always on. It's always there, and a 1 would not remain oblivious of it for too long.



> I don't mind reading through Naranjo's description of it again, though. It's not like the world will explode if I do.


I totally encourage you to re-read it. 

Besides, looking at how other types view reality can give us perspective on our own type. 



> Which post? Just so I have a frame of reference.


Bleh, the long one recently where you quoted Naranjo and talked about how you don't relate to 3.



> When people offer their opinions, I do take into consideration how much of the conversation they've read, as well as how much information they bring to the table to back their claims.
> 
> It's a Te thing.


I am aware.  I function similarly.

I hope my *malevolent hate* tickles your Te as much as it tickles mine. :laughing: 




> HAHAHA. Oh my...it took me a full five minutes to realize who you were referring to. WOW, we really have been on this forum together for a long time. That was AGES ago.
> 
> Your memory is pretty damned impressive.


HAHAHAHA! I know! It was hilarious. 



> Hahaha. Well, even if I was lead around, it doesn't really matter. If the typing is wrong, I'll be back in six months with new arguments for why I'm not a six. My brain takes to types like a pick axe to ice. It slowly works them over and finds the kinks.
> 
> If the typing's bad, it'll break with time.


I don't see you as the kind to get lead around, but that's just me. :3 You were a very active participant in the discussion and didn't passively or uncritically lap anything up. I like a typing discussion with a person who has queries, facts and the confidence to take in information without getting defensive. 
In 6 months, if you question it, feel free to read through this conversation and take it apart. 



> Ha. I'm pretty low key about the enneagram in general.
> 
> Although if you'd recommended four or nine, there might have been some fireworks....XD


Well, dammit...I'd have argued 4w3 had I known. 



> Bolded. It won't happen. Ever.
> 
> I was not built to exist outside of a battlefield. Life without enemies has no meaning.
> 
> I've thought about that before, off and on over the last couple years (about not making everything into a fight between me and life), and it's literally a concept that does not compute. I could never do it. Even if I tried to live that way, I'd just know I was lying to myself.


 I understand where you're coming from.



> Glad you enjoyed it!


Sure did! It was more of a breakthrough than our previous discussions, where I think even I walked away feeling things weren't sitting quite right. Then again, I never felt the need to push one way or another. These things come to us, in time. 



> I really to appreciate how helpful you've been to this process. Especially for bringing in more people to add insight in addition to providing your own. Oh, and also for challenging me to look at my previous typings. I think that did a lot.


Thanks..it was so fun that even a headache didn't keep me away from participating. And gurl you know...it takes a lot for an SP dom to set a headache aside LOL for a discussion. 

No, I've actually taken the same approach in my own explorations. I always consider what made me type a certain way in the past. Notable themes emerge when we look at the entirety of our typing journey. 

And, I'd lately seen some Te dom cp6w5s, that are in a minority here, participating over at the 6 forum. So, I was sure getting them to talk about their own experiences, much moreso than commenting on your type which wasn't my main goal, would be a helpful experience. And, the last few pages here have been a veritable goldmine on how cp6w5 manifests especially in Te doms or even aux's thanks to the participation of those who are the type ..and live it. 



> Pulling all those posts from when I was typed a one really added a lot of clarity.
> 
> It's been informative and interesting.


It did.

Yes, it has been!


----------



## Sina

mimesis said:


> miss Orgasm,:angry: I've been typed 6 publicly and I didn't go ballistic!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :frustrating::frustrating: :dry: Um...not being publicly reactive here, of course....or defensive.
> I mean why should I be? ...some of my best friends are 6.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carry on.
> 
> /irony


miss orgasm is happy to add you to her annointed list of mofos who don't lose their shit...like they'd been accused of having herpes or something...over a 6 suggestion. :laughing:

oh and here's my trademark malevolent "  "

HAHAHAH! 

btw, yes, some of closest friends are 6s as well. 

and LOL @ emotes



Nonsense said:


> Personable? I thought she did that mostly to condescend.
> 
> Not that I can read @_Cosmic Orgasm_'s mind.



LOFL @ 'personable'

shit, i could use some 'personable' :crying:

as for the winks, i have never had someone psychoanalyze my winks with such delicious focus. :crying:
so touched... touched enough that i'll indulge you back... 

now, let's see about condescension. it's context dependent. if the wink is followed by a condescending statement, sure as fuck it's condescending, and i sure won't fuckin hide it. hell naw.

i don't need a wink to convey condescension. my words are plenty fuckin enough when that's my aim. the wink just chaps pansy asses, so that's an added bonus. :kitteh:

when i like the person i am engaging and/or am just thoroughly enjoying a conversation even if neutral towards the other party, i still use winks cus that's how i talk yo! <3 even in private conversations and even with my friends. "  " you'd know.  it conveys my amusement, and i laugh easily lofl. the talk with marlowe being a good example of the non-condescending usage of winks. i feel like i am writing a formal report on emoticon usage bahaha. hell, some of you think too much. :laughing: 

maybe @_Swordsman of Mana_ could start another dumb poll; this time about which enneatype uses winks and why. that might lead to some innovative insights on the psychical turbulence and evil hateful forces embodied in the black hearts of reality hazing enneagram monsterfaces besides myself. :angry:



> Sigh, the type 6 discussion here has been pretty interesting, but at some point my brain went "nope". Maybe I'll look at it again when I'm more awake.


sure!


----------



## mimesis

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_kaleidoscope_ made a great point about the distinction between being competent and the image of competence, as in where relative value came to be placed.


In reference to Daniels/ Palmer on Type 3:




Type 3 Human Doing said:


> "*Lost” essential quality:* A connection to a universal hope that everything that needs to be done will get done according to universal laws or principles.
> 
> *Compensating belief: * The world rewards doing, not being. To be loved, you must become a “human doing" instead of a “human being."
> 
> *Attention/coping strategy:* Going for accomplishment, success and a good image, since love comes from the approval generated by your performance. Focusing on tasks and goals, and pressing forward with little attention to your feelings.
> 
> http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/explore-the-enneagram/tour-the-nine-types/enneagram-type-3.php


Underlined is image-type (3) disposition, image being how it is seen (by others), since it reflects social value.

Edit:


Marlowe said:


> I take on as much as possible because any sort of relaxation is akin to laziness for me.


This doesn't sound to me like a contemplation of 'nameless terror' or seeking 'clarity' as security strategy, but apparently relaxation or laziness ('not performing') is seen as some kind of danger /liability or if you will, internalized and intellectualized sin (or shame).

@_Marlowe_ the question that arises to me is whether this fight with the world or life, is the fight of meeting up to expectations you put on yourself, thinking the world expects you to achieve, where sometimes the 'true' you would have wished it was different. Whatever your type is, I hope you can allow yourself to relax now and then, because not relaxing doesn't necessarily improve performance or focus/flow. 

Relaxation doesn't make you incompetent or lazy (although it may 'look' that way). Now and then you need to relax and let it go, in order to improve overall performance. Also, are you sometimes in conflict with others with regard to (their) laziness or relaxation?



Middle Way said:


> *A String Too Tight, a String Too Loose*
> 
> So Siddhartha left the castle without saying goodbye to anyone, even his wife and newborn child, with the intention of finding a way to escape the suffering of life. He began his search for enlightenment with Asceticism.He was an Ascetic for many years, and fasted severely. He, supposedly, ate only six grains of rice a day, and was so thin that you could poke his spine through his stomach. However, this did not aid him in his search for enlightenment.
> 
> He decided on meditation next. He sat under a Boddhi tree meditating for a long time. Then a musician who was passing by was overheard by Siddhartha. He said 'If you make the string too tight, it will break. If you make the string too loose, it will not play'. Eureka! Siddhartha had found the wisdom he had longed for.
> 
> http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A2163205


----------



## Vanguard

[No message]


----------



## Sina

Vanguard said:


> "I'm not bothered by this at all guys, no seriously it doesn't bother me one bit     hehehe I'm such a mover and shaker lol!!! ROFLMAO hahahah guys seriously it doesn't affect me really it doesn't      _10 pages of validation of why it doesn't affect me_ LOL!"


"I am such a sagacious ATE that my silly little attempt at 'exposing' someone's online enneagram menace (oooo... 'malevolent hate'..fuck you're so melodramatic you need to go type as a fore or something, boy!) has elicited much mirth in said individual. And, I desperately need the illusion of having gotten under someone's skin, in my own head anyway, to feel a semblance of control over the situation. "

Feel any better? "  "

Hell, I've heard a lot of hilarious crap here from skurred little people reacting to their own insecurities and butthurt. But, the sheer fuckin melodrama lacing the term "malevolent hate" trumps all that old shit. :laughing: Yes, I AM SO AFFECTED that I am still amused as fuck at the absurdity of it all. Please...oh please...keep talking. 

No wonder, my sense of humour has never been particularly discerning. I am tickled by the dumbest shit. Here's some more 'validation' for you to chew on. Couldn't come up with a more tired cliche than that 'validation' crap? Psh.

D'aww...child please, I'll let you have the last word on this. You sleep in peace tonight, Okay? I'd hope my sepulchral malevolent countenance wouldn't give you too many nightmares. <3


----------



## Vanguard

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> "I am such a sagacious ATE that my silly little attempt at 'exposing' someone's online enneagram menace (oooo... 'malevolent hate'..fuck you're so melodramatic you need to go type as a fore or something, boy!) has elicited much mirth in said individual. And, I desperately need the illusion of having gotten under someone's skin, in my own head anyway, to feel a semblance of control over the situation. "
> 
> Feel any better? "  "
> 
> Hell, I've heard a lot of hilarious crap here from skurred little people reacting to their own insecurities and butthurt. But, the sheer fuckin melodrama lacing the term "malevolent hate" trumps all that old shit. :laughing: Yes, I AM SO AFFECTED that I am still amused as fuck at the absurdity of it all. Please...oh please...keep talking.
> 
> No wonder, my sense of humour has never been particularly discerning. I am tickled by the dumbest shit. Here's some more 'validation' for you to chew on. Couldn't come up with a more tired cliche than that 'validation' crap? Psh.
> 
> D'aww...child please, I'll let you have the last word on this. You sleep in peace tonight, Okay? I'd hope my sepulchral malevolent countenance wouldn't give you too many nightmares. <3


----------



## Animal

Nonsense said:


> Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about intentional dishonesty either. :tongue: And I know what you mean, but @_Vanguard_ seems to devalue self-reporting entirely as if people can't know what they talk about when it comes to themselves (well, that is how it came across to me). *I think it's good to strike a balance with these things, because it can work better for some people than others*.


^ This. Exactly. I think its good to be aware of the merits and demerits of each, and also where your personal strengths and blind spots lie, to be a bigger help to others. Personal experience plays a part in this too, for me.


----------



## braided pain

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> And, I wanna take a second and thank @_Scelerat_ and @_Grau the Great_ for the thought-provoking contributions. There are very few cp6w5s around who type as such, and there are even fewer discussions on the type that help people understand what it's truly about, from observation and discussion. You can go ahead and change your type tomorrow for all I care, and yet, from where I am standing, it's very refreshing to see examples (esp women cp6w5s because you're probably the only self-typed one besides @_Chipps_ and @_braided pain_ afaik) of actual cp6s that are very ID-like (stereotypically yanno cus only dem id types can show strong will, determination, ambition, aggressiveness, competitiveness, insensitivity and single-mindedness in the pursuit of what they want). No type has a monopoly on being angry, critical and demanding. My exchange with you has helped my own understanding, tremendously. So, thanks for bringing up your typing and being as mature as you were about it. The forum has a long of history of Ates losing their shit over as much as being suggested Cp 6, so you gave it honest consideration, which was good to see. Besides Chipps, you're the only other person I know who was publicly offered a 6 typing and didn't go ballistic over it. :laughing:


Let me throw in my thanks to everyone here, too. If I'd ever had any doubts about my core type, they'd be gone now, and these last pages have been one of the best combinations of educational and entertaining that I've run across in a while. I'd have thanked every post, but I didn't want to seem like a stalker.

Wait--no. "Stalker" wouldn't bother me. "Loser with no life" would. Ha.


----------



## Coburn

Vanguard said:


> Winky - its rare to see so many words written with such little substance behind them. Debate? You don't want to debate, you want to impose your warped mirror on those around you in order to feel less alone. The anonymity and respite forums like these grant are bound to attract broken souls, but they won't fill the wound you carry. The constant flitting, the use of smilies to make yourself more personable -it grates. Your posts don't offer insight, they muddle and confuse; reflections of your own turbulence. Pure haze creation, you are no seeker and never have been.
> 
> Marlowe, you have 2 options - you can listen to Winky face, whose passive-aggressive helpfulness masks a deeper sense of malevolent hate & a fundamental lack of love that she is missing in her life and aims to re-create in artificial settings. Or you can cut the bullshit and find the answer within. You can become a seeker for the truth, or a hazer of reality like Winky.


What would be your solution then? What specifically should I do to "seek truth" and "find the answer within?"


----------



## Sixty Nein

This is generally off topic but I'm generally confused by what people would refer to as energy, and how one goes off on seeing it. I personally do not really see energy at all, I see things that move but I don't necessarily see the fuel source and the output of that motion necessarily. It's just a curiosity thing that I have, it's mostly for my selfish ends to learn about the sort of energy I put out, because there is always energy going in and out of me. I just have a difficult time understanding what exactly that sort of energy is. I don't necessarily mind, but I never really get an answer whenever I ask others how I act.

I often only understand things from a theoretical standpoint. That is why I ask.


----------



## Coburn

mimesis said:


> In reference to Daniels/ Palmer on Type 3:
> 
> "Lost” essential quality: A connection to a universal hope that everything that needs to be done will get done according to universal laws or principles.
> 
> Compensating belief: The world rewards doing, not being. To be loved, you must become a “human doing" instead of a “human being."
> 
> Attention/coping strategy: Going for accomplishment, success and a good image, since love comes from the approval generated by your performance. Focusing on tasks and goals, and pressing forward with little attention to your feelings.


*I definitely have a large portion of my self worth tied into personal achievement.* I'm very hard on myself in that regard. 

Part of the problem is that once I've accomplished something, my mind says "well it wasn't that hard to do. you were able to do it. can't be much of an accomplishment." LOL. So I end up moving onto other projects and taking on larger challenges.

Doesn't mean I don't get that "fuck yeah, victory!" feeling after accomplishing something truly difficult. But a few days after that elation has worn off, my mind turns the project over and is dissatisfied with the level of difficulty involved. 

Like I said before though, I don't over commit. I learned my lesson on that the hard, hard, hard way. 

The problem I come across is the "love comes through the approval generated by your performance" part. This goes back to the image aspect of the three, the area I don't really connect with. 

I'm notorious at work for evading compliments or thanks for what I do. I don't like the spotlight and I don't care if my work is recognized outside of its usefulness. *If someone were to say "your work really helped us with this," I'd be happy. If they said "wow, you're really awesome for doing x," I would cringe.* 

Of course, I can always fake receiving compliments. It's not that hard to look enthusiastic or pleased when someone compliments you. But I don't feel it inside.

Positive approval aimed directly towards me freaks me the fuck out.



Going back to your post:* "Lost” essential quality:* A connection to a universal hope that everything that needs to be done will get done according to universal laws or principles.

Well there's stuff that won't get done. Sure. That's pretty much a given. But the shit that's on my watch will get done come heaven or hell. When I take personal responsibility of over something, I see it through to the bitter, bloody end. LOL. This is where my strength of will can (and has been) very detrimental to me. I cling on like a bulldog even when there's no practical or reasonable point for continuing to cling. 

It's just this stubborn refusal to not be stopped until I have poured everything of myself into this problem and come out on top. 

Oh man, one of my friends who worked with me during a period where I really displayed this could tell you horror stories about the way I treated people and the way I treated myself. I worked myself to collapse. XD

The hilarious thing is, when I did collapse, the people I was working for wanted to know why I was being lazy and why I couldn't get back up and continue my work. Hahahaha, shows what kind of people I worked for. 

I don't really care about how I treated myself (although I got into huge fights with friends who thought I should have taken better care of myself), but I do still feel bad for the way I treated people who tried to help me. I didn't see it at the time, and I ended up burning those relationships to a crisp because of my behavior. I bullied and intimidated them into suffering under me...rather than seeing them as people who wanted to help me. 

N-E-WAYS. 



> Compensating belief: The world rewards doing, not being. To be loved, you must become a “human doing" instead of a “human being."


That definitely exists on some scale. How can someone be loved if they bring nothing to the table?

Well, it is possible. It doesn't make sense to me, but I've seen it happen more than once in real life. So it is possible. 




> Attention/coping strategy: Going for accomplishment, success and a good image, since love comes from the approval generated by your performance. Focusing on tasks and goals, and pressing forward with little attention to your feelings.


I mentioned most of this above. 

Little attention to feelings...no, I pay attention to my feelings. I just choose whether or not they are worth acting on. Most aren't.

Feelings are generated in the body, and I am very in tune with my body. So I'm quick to recognize what I'm feeling about something/someone. I just don't immediately apply what I feel to a situation. It goes through the "value" spin cycle first. 

Good image...I'd like to have a good image. It would be cool to be seen as the crazy uncle type, like I mentioned before. That's definitely an image I aspire to be. So yes, good image makes sense. But it's more of a future-oriented thing rather than a current. 

Outside of being considered competent and reliable, I don't really strive for a specific image. But as kalei mentioned, I do find it more important to be competent and reliable than be viewed as such (although the image and actual nature go hand in hand; you can't really be reliable if people don't actually rely on you-- and they need to think you're reliable to do that). 

I mean sure, I could say I was reliable and then have nobody rely on me. But that's kind of ridiculous, right? That would be like me saying I'm a great plumber but nobody's ever asked me to plumb anything. 

Well, even if people don't think I am something, I know what I am. I am aware when people perceive me one way that isn't accurate. How much it bothers me depends on the misconception and who is having it. 



> Underlined is image-type (3) disposition, image being how it is seen (by others), since it reflects social value.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 
> This doesn't sound to me like a contemplation of 'nameless terror' or seeking 'clarity' as security strategy, but apparently relaxation or laziness ('not performing') is seen as some kind of danger /liability or if you will, internalized and intellectualized sin (or shame).


Let me rephrase what I wrote earlier.

I have down time. I am busy as fuck, but I do NOT over commit. I get breaks every now and then (how else would I be on PerC?). I make time to do hobbies or lie about. I take days off where I never get out of bed or shower. And I'm okay with that. 

It's laziness in the face of a challenge I don't do. When an opportunity is offered to me, to not take it because I don't feel like it...that's laziness. That's being weak. Not strong enough to take on what life throws at me. I don't do that.

I also can't stand the thought of something I could be in control of going to someone else, especially if I have ideas about how it should turn out. I'm very protective of my vision when it comes to projects. 



> the question that arises to me is whether this fight with the world or life, is the fight of meeting up to expectations you put on yourself, thinking the world expects you to achieve, where sometimes the 'true' you would have wished it was different. Whatever your type is, I hope you can allow yourself to relax now and then, because not relaxing doesn't necessarily improve performance or focus/flow.


It's a mixture of personal expectations and world expectations.

It's odd, because I've tried to bow my head and just commit to being the person others want me to be. I've tried looking certain ways, having certain activities, pursuing certain jobs, etc. Ultimately, the amount of effort and energy I have to exert into these attempts is draining and I eventually give up and stop. 

I recently did a six-month stint in continuing education getting certificates for a career that was pushed on me by other people (with good intentions). Even though I realized within the first two months that I didn't want that career over my current one, I didn't say anything to the people who continued to encourage me over it. I didn't want to cause conflict where I didn't have to. It was easier for me to tuck in my chin and take on the continuing education as a personal challenge to beat. Which I did. 

I got through the courses, got all the certificates (I completed 2 years of coursework in six months; went to school 6 days a week outside my 40 hour a week job XD) and then promptly went back to doing other things I was more interested in. The people who had pushed me towards the other career at first started asking me about when I was going to pursue that...I parried and gave vague answers...eventually they realized I had no intention of following through. 

I have a lot of that. It's easier to just take on the extra work as a personal challenge to myself rather than fight with people sometimes. Yeah, okay, sometimes it does suck. But look at this this way: I can either take on work and push myself to the limits to see what I can achieve, or I can argue with people around me, burn bridges, start long-lasting emotional butthurt problems, and not have accomplished anything in the meantime. 

It's just easier to be a workaholic than to fight with people sometimes. 

As to the info being unrelated to my career...well I believe all knowledge is intertwined. Even if I have no use for it now, there will come a day (and there have already been days) where it has come in handy. So I'm not so bothered by that. 



> Relaxation doesn't make you incompetent or lazy (although it may 'look' that way). Now and then you need to relax and let it go, in order to improve overall performance. Also, are you sometimes in conflict with others with regard to (their) laziness or relaxation?


Yeah, I do. Even if I don't feel like taking breaks, I take them anyways. I usually appreciate them afterwards, even if I grumbled about them at first.


I'm only bothered by other people's laziness when it impacts the work environment or my workload. People who don't pull their weight make more work for me, and that doesn't fly well. What do I do in response? Either intimidate them into getting their shit done or take everything away from them and do it myself. I have no problem working myself till I drop. It's part of the challenge of wills.


----------



## Flatlander

@_Marlowe_ - looks like you got lots of input and figured it out already. I ended up too busy and reading through it all, can see why you went for CP6 as your type. Congratulations - also, of course, 631 would seem to be the tritype if you've already discounted 8, though I'm not so sure.


----------



## Coburn

Vanguard said:


> It's telling that collectively, everyone has spent approximately 13 pages on Marlowe's condition. That is enough insight for me as to what kind of person she is and what she is after. Her stacking IS sp/so, and her character is that of a 3w4. She seeks to secure her image and to USE other's opinions as reinforcement of her own view. NEVER has she once been vacillating between her views of herself - she continuously questions OTHERS opinions of her "how so? What makes you think this way?" this is image reinforcement which is being created as she listens to insights and shapes the way she is perceived on here. Her ultimate goal is to preserve herself - her tone, line of questioning, attention drawing and overall line of behaviour is self reinforcing in nature. To her, ultimately, your opinion is SECONDARY. It is a vanity-check.


It's true that at the end of the day, I will quietly make my own decisions about my type. Everybody's opinion IS secondary to what I observe about myself. 

After all, we are online and most people know me here only through very limited means. It's not unrealistic to expect that they might not know me as well as I know myself. Why ask them for typing, then? Because sometimes third person perspective is needed. It helps put old things in a new light. It deconstructs something I've observed and puts it in a new way for me. A perfect example is what kalei wrote about valuing competence over the image of competence. It's an obvious truth now that I read it, but it's one I wasn't able to realize on my own. I needed kalei to say it to see it. 

I don't mind people projecting themselves onto me. It doesn't really matter. My mind will work over all of the projections/descriptions to see what is/isn't true, even if it takes months. That's why I've kept coming back to the typing board time after time when a new type doesn't fit. 

I should probably be more assertive about the whole typing process (maybe that would help), but...it's the enneagram. No offense to anybody, but a change in type doesn't mean I wake up tomorrow and find I'm suddenly living an entirely different life. My job will still be there, I'll still have all four limbs and cash in the bank. Good chocolate will still be on sale in some department store. 

I've mistyped so many times that I'm not uncomfortable with mistyping. It's not something to freak out over. 

Like I said, if it's the wrong type, I'll find the holes in it eventually. 



> Her stack is 3w4 sp/so with a 1 and a 6 fix. She's the "compliant" 3 - her problems inherently stem from compliance issues. She get's mad when "things that have been set in stone" (aka a compliance issue) are altered (her co-worker example). The fact that she typed herself as 1, then an 8, then a 3 and has *ruled out *2,4,5,7 and 9 is telling of her internal regulatory environment. Couple this with an association with conservative fiscal policy, and you get a 3 that wants "sound, clear guidelines" of appeal - the "just do it" attitude.


Awww...you make me feel terribly childish with your use of "gets mad." It's okay, it was a pretty childish thing to be bothered by. 

Actually, my typing started as an eight, then went to three for a VERY brief period, than type one, then type three again. 

I'm personally not sure what you mean about compliance problems...can you elaborate what you mean when you use the word "compliance?"



> You don't type someone based on their words and explanations. They are always wrong and have no clue what they're talking about. Read between the lines, get the vibe - the juice that powers them. It runs through their veins and when you draw blood you see them for what they are.


That's fine. I'm not on here to critique anybody's method of typing.


----------



## Coburn

@Animal  @Nonsense

The only thing I'll really come to regret about this whole thread is how much info I've written on myself. I hate giving people information about me. 

Fortunately, it should be buried under a new pile of type me questions in a couple months, so I find some solace in the fact that it will be forever lost on the internet. 


But to interrupt your roundabout discussion, I tried to talk more about personal experiences on this type me discussion than about my views of the types. I figured that was the better way to help illustrate me as a person.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Marlowe said:


> But to interrupt your roundabout discussion, I tried to talk more about personal experiences on this type me discussion than about my views of the types. I figured that was the better way to help illustrate me as a person.


Lol, I don't think it's much of an interruption, since I don't _really _​have anything important to say. =P


----------



## Coburn

Donovan said:


> Vanguard does have a point, regardless of his wording being inflammatory or not. i can see Marlowe as a 3, but then again a 6 can and will very often resemble any point they're surrounded by, or any point they integrate/disintegrate to (the same goes for any type). there are phases where i basically live _as_ a 3, and may comes off as so, but it means nothing other than exactly that + being unhealthy/stretched too thinly.
> 
> 
> *i really don't see any harm coming from a person mistyping, so i (lol) really don't understand other peoples' animosity over a subject like this--mistyping is a part of it. *
> 
> and if others are playing into some stupid game here, let 'em. it hurts them--not you--and eventually everyone that may be falling for it will see otherwise.
> 
> edit: or they won't, and will continue to live their lives under the guise you see--which again, shouldn't be any skin off your back.


Yeah, as I've said before, it's not like the world suddenly falls apart if I'm mistyped again. I mean, I've managed to survive multiple mistypings already. 

As to the three, I am very aware that I have a three in my tri-type, at the least. I'd be happy to hear a detailed argument for it as my core. I'd just need some explanations about why I fail to meet a lot of the image areas a three naturally takes to. 

LOL, I could be a failed three. 



Oh, on a side note @Vanguard

The sp-dom three description you posted several pages back, the one about the woman having the affair who told her lover to relax when the husband came home because he never goes into that room...that is DEFINITELY not me. I would make the guy hide anyways because knowing my luck, the one time I was carelessly confident, my husband would come strolling through that door.


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## Coburn

Flatlander said:


> @_Marlowe_ - looks like you got lots of input and figured it out already. I ended up too busy and reading through it all, can see why you went for CP6 as your type. Congratulations - also, of course, 631 would seem to be the tritype if you've already discounted 8, though I'm not so sure.


Can I just say I wish you had posted more? I love looking at your avatar every time you post.





(okay, I'll stop being weird now)



And yes, still looking at tri-types.


----------



## Flatlander

Marlowe said:


> Can I just say I wish you had posted more? I love looking at your avatar every time you post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (okay, I'll stop being weird now)
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, still looking at tri-types.


I like your avatar too, even if it makes me too ready to refer to you as male. Compliments your posting style pretty well.

Life's been odd as hell the last week and a half. I might try out an argument for why I still think 8 could be in there after I've done some work.


----------



## Animal

Marlowe said:


> @_Animal_
> @_Nonsense_
> 
> The only thing I'll really come to regret about this whole thread is how much info I've written on myself. I hate giving people information about me.
> 
> Fortunately, it should be buried under a new pile of type me questions in a couple months, so I find some solace in the fact that it will be forever lost on the internet.


Ugh, I know that feeling too well.  But yeah, it will be buried.



> But to interrupt your roundabout discussion, I tried to talk more about personal experiences on this type me discussion than about my views of the types. I figured that was the better way to help illustrate me as a person.


I saw that. Sorry, it wasn't meant as a jab at you. I was just talking about my own method of typing and why I let the others dig into the specifics of the posts, and I watched, but didn't add much about the posts. First of all, any insights I could have had, everyone else had already said. But also there is my preferred typing method.

I actually found your self-disclosure to be very mature & you definitely did not seem like you were 'aiming to be seen as a type.' Which is why the whole discussion was intriguing to me. But I have not become adept at digging through posts for specific 'cues' or 'clues' but rather, viewing a whole picture of a person over the course of interactions & different instances long-term. It's as much my 'fault' as anything. None of what I wrote about my typing methods is directly related to your self-disclosure personally. In fact, the contrary - this is one of the most honest, least pretentious self-typing attempts I have seen.


----------



## Figure

Re: Anger, which has been brought up here and I missed out in responding to over the weekend - 

Unlike what a lot of people fantasize, in enneagram jargon, "Anger" doesn't necessarily have to mean blasting people around you with insensitive comments, and feeling like you want to hammer someone's face in. All types can be "angry." Enneagram anger is different. 

Anger is a biologically natural emotion that signifies that something in your environment, inner or outer, is wrong and needs to be changed. Animals become angry when you encroach on their dens or young to remove the threat. The same thing carries through to humans, both in that way and in more subtle ways given our more sophisticated brains - in fact, without perhaps even feeling consciously "threatened" like the animals do. Any person and any type can become angry when they think something in or around them should be different. But it's types 8, 9, and 1, and specifically 1 that _fixate _on something that causes them to constellate their personality around anger and not something else. These types have developed a fundamental belief about reality that causes them to not accept their environment as it is, move with or against it, and therefore by definition operate from anger. 

All three of these involve a _movement _in reaction to what we assume about our inner or outer environment, on the most micro, even unnoticeable level. If my environment may hurt my sensitivity, I need to pit against and overcome it physically (8); if my environment isn't loving and inclusive, I'll simply zone myself out to it and forget about it (9); if my environment may be critical of me because of my flaws, I'd better clean them up and stamp whatever's causing them out of existence (1). You can see that there is action taken to move with or against the environment that wouldn't otherwise be necessary if we were innately "OK" with it as it is. That's why 8, 9, and 1 are anger types - not because they have angry reactions to people or situations, or because they perpetually feel irritated and frustrated.


----------



## Scelerat

Marlowe said:


> What would be your solution then? What specifically should I do to "seek truth" and "find the answer within?"


It's one of those ironies, when someone accuses someone else of using platitudes and end up using them extensively in their own writings. Kind of like the pot accusing the kettle of telling everyone that everything will be alright. 

The fact of the matter is that until we find some reasonable way of quantifying and fact-basing enneagram/mbti and the likes it will remain one of those "scream opinions at each other" fields that at worst turns out to have 0 value and at best can help you grow by encouraging self-reflection.


----------



## Donovan

Sixty Nein said:


> This is generally off topic but I'm generally confused by what people would refer to as energy, and how one goes off on seeing it. I personally do not really see energy at all, I see things that move but I don't necessarily see the fuel source and the output of that motion necessarily. It's just a curiosity thing that I have, it's mostly for my selfish ends to learn about the sort of energy I put out, because there is always energy going in and out of me. I just have a difficult time understanding what exactly that sort of energy is. I don't necessarily mind, but I never really get an answer whenever I ask others how I act.
> 
> I often only understand things from a theoretical standpoint. That is why I ask.


lol, i'll take a stab at this (since you're asking, and it reminded me that i never answered Marlowe's very same question). 


two ways of seeing it: 

1) make believe b.s. in some weirdo's head (not the worst choice, but i think there's better)

2) it's a feeling you get from the other person. all the actual real-world cues are (for me) usually not apparent until after the fact, such as body language/etc. but, it's like the "sleeping part" of my mind--or something at least--picks up on it, translates it, and i can just kind of "feel" the person's... _energy_ (sorry). 

it's telling of their mood, what they're likely to do, and what they want.


----------



## mimesis

Marlowe said:


> It helps put old things in a new light. It deconstructs something I've observed and puts it in a new way for me. A perfect example is what kalei wrote about valuing competence over the image of competence. It's an obvious truth now that I read it, but it's one I wasn't able to realize on my own. I needed kalei to say it to see it.


Frankly, I don't think it's as obvious as it sounds. But it's good to debate Image, I think. The fact that you cringe when you are praised publicly doesn't mean you can't be an image type. Not everyone, image type or not, feels comfortable and even enjoys the experience when other people sing happy birthday. People may cringe when it happens, but may feel the love when they re-experience it afterwards, rather than in the moment, when the joy was inhibited by shame or self-consciousness. 

But take Johnny Depp, by many typed as a Four and an image type. He may be an actor, but he has said to feel very uncomfortable to see himself on a big screen (even claims he often didn't even see the end product). He's not very fond of media attention either, he is very protective of his privacy, and I believe he once compared taking photographs of him with rape. 

Does this imply Depp prefers 'being significant' over 'image of significance', or is it that his 'image of significance' doesn't match with the public 'image of significance' or how they validate 'the significance of Johnny Depp' ? Also, desiring to be significant or create something significant requires an (ideal) image of what is significant and what not. 










For Pirates of the Carribean Depp 'introjected' some of Keith Richards' significance and sort of 'incorporated' it in the character of Jack Sparrow. But similarly we can introject and incorporate values or behavior into our Ego (Ideal-Ich), not so much in a self-creative way, but as part of a defense strategy. 



Introjection said:


> Individuals with weak ego boundaries are more prone to use introjection as a defense mechanism.
> Introjection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There's more to it, and there are differences between 3 and 4, but I may come back to that later.


----------



## Coburn

mimesis said:


> Frankly, I don't think it's as obvious as it sounds. But it's good to debate Image, I think. The fact that you cringe when you are praised publicly doesn't mean you can't be an image type. Not everyone, image type or not, feels comfortable and even enjoys the experience when other people sing happy birthday. People may cringe when it happens, but may feel the love when they re-experience it afterwards, rather than in the moment, when the joy was inhibited by shame or self-consciousness.
> 
> But take Johnny Depp, by many typed as a Four and an image type. He may be an actor, but he has said to feel very uncomfortable to see himself on a big screen (even claims he often didn't even see the end product). He's not very fond of media attention either, he is very protective of his privacy, and I believe he once compared taking photographs of him with rape.
> 
> Does this imply Depp prefers 'being significant' over 'image of significance', or is it that his 'image of significance' doesn't match with the public 'image of significance' or how they validate 'the significance of Johnny Depp' ? Also, desiring to be significant or create something significant requires an (ideal) image of what is significant and what not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Pirates of the Carribean Depp 'introjected' some of Keith Richards' significance and sort of 'incorporated' it in the character of Jack Sparrow. But similarly we can introject and incorporate values or behavior into our Ego (Ideal-Ich), not so much in a self-creative way, but as part of a defense strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> There's more to it, and there are differences between 3 and 4, but I may come back to that later.


I'm not sure I relate to the emphasis on "significance." 

Unless we're equating useful with significant?

Think of it like sound design..the best sound design is the kind you don't notice. If you do notice it, it hasn't done it's job properly. That's how I often feel about my work. 

Of course, it is nice now and then to be appreciated for what I bring to the table, but it's more an afterthought than a motive. I take most of my achievement satisfaction in just knowing I fucking pulled it off.


As to the Johnny Depp example...I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Being an actor doesn't automatically mean that person is an image type seeking personal significance. Did Depp specifically say that's what he was after?

And how is introspecting for a part a defense strategy? You have me somewhat confused...


As to interjection for myself, I don't use it as a defense mechanism. At least not that I'm aware of. 

I'm definitely not a projector. If anything, I ten to view blaming others as a weakness. I am much more inclined to take the blame for a problem on myself, because it's only myself I can change. If I want the outcome of a problem to be different, I have to change the only real variable I can control: me.

It's like when someone says something that pisses me off, and I react and start an argument. If, at the end of the day, I decide that that wasn't an argument I wanted, I change how I react to things that piss me off. I can't make the other person change, and it's the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and hope for a different result.

Does that make sense? I'm typing from my phone, so I'm being more brief than I normally would be.

I know when I'm caught off guard, I have a sharp tongue. Emotion shuts out and the guard gates over my heart come slamming down. I get cold and icy and say whatever needs to be said the back the other person off. It's only after I've gotten out of the situation that my adrenaline and emotions come flying into my head. 

I was often accused of being "like ice" when upset or displeased with someone.

Oh, but I do do introjective identification consciously; where you identify good attributes in people you admire and take them on yourself. I do that fully aware of what I'm doing. There are a few specific people from history I deeply admire, and I strive to be more like them...although I am aware there are limits. Sometimes I'm simply not the right kind of person to have certain traits of people I admire. I've accepted that there are some people I will just have to admire.


----------



## Coburn

Oh wait, I get it. You were using his introjection as an example of introjection, not necessarily of it as a defense strategy. LOL. Can't read or type on my phone. XD


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Paradigm
I've been playing with the notion of a 9w1 fix for you. Social last INTJ 6 with a 1 fix seems like it a more hard edged and critical type. not saying you're mistyped, but it's a possibility worth considering if you haven't already.


----------



## beth x

braided pain said:


> Yeah, I can't see a five core for you. You obviously value knowledge, but you've got a strong sense of "meh, it isn't everything," too. You've a mediator vibe that's more about reaching agreement that about settling right and wrong.
> 
> You do seem more active than passive aggressive, though I would chalk that up to wisdom and maturity.
> 
> My $.02, YMMV, just my impression, etc.


Thanks for thinking I have wisdom and maturity. I really haven't felt like a grown up at all this week. I was a fair bit more suppressed with anger in my younger years which would explode in a very directed fury at whatever was giving me grief. I think I would have called myself a hand grenade. I simply just got over it though. I channel anger more in a motivating way now, I guess. It's conscious.


----------



## Figure

@_bethdeth_

First of all, welcome to the enneagram forum - this is our equivalent of the Stream of Conscious Venting Thread 

Second of all, I don't think 5 as a core works for you either, for the reason of very much coming across as a Gut type here. Both 5 and 9 can be detached, but I think most 5's lack the "I'm just going to do what I need to do" kind of attitude you have, and most 9's lack the need to develop elaborate, complex theories to sweep their observations forward. You come across more as simple, straight forward, grounded, and a little rough-edged like both the 8w9 and 9w8. 

People like to make it sound as if 8 and 9 together make these huge contrasts in either type's behavior, but with both I've found that I actually have trouble being able to tell the difference in real life. That is, _until _the person acts on something, and you see the 8w9 become _increasingly _assertive and aggressive like the 8w7, and the 9w8 zone out, support, or try and referee more like the 9w1. I think the biggest difference comes off in how much energy the two put into something - the 8w9 is sleepy, but still overexerts themselves when rubber hits the road, and the 9w8 is very sturdy and can be protective, but still goes back to narcotizing themselves out of right action in favor of comfort. 8w9 is a sleepy 8 who's still compulsively an 8, and a 9w8 is a rough-edged, sturdy 9 who's still compulsively 9. 

I think you've got your type correct, but maybe just haven't discovered the full breadth of your wing.


----------



## petite libellule

Animal said:


> The question is, what is behind it.


what exactly are you trying to say ?


----------



## Animal

NK said:


> what exactly are you trying to say ?


If someone points out that a person gives off a certain vibe in enneagram, the question to determine their type is: what is behind it? Why do they give off that vibe? I definitely engage in vibe-typing as a guide, and if something 'feels off' I take note, but its important mostly to dig into the motivations, fears, etc. in general. That's all - it was a general comment about 'how to type' in general, not particularly 'you.' Everyone has a reason behind what they do, a core motive/ core fear etc, which makes the enneagram journey interesting because we are searching for the MOST driving motivation.


----------



## Pelopra

me?


----------



## Sixty Nein

I honestly got nothin'. You just seem like a zippy person to me, sort of like a more energetic teenaged girl really.

I guess social subtype of some sort.

Do me butwizards. Am I not a Nein? Will I have to find another gimmick? Am I not an ISFJ?


----------



## Meirsho

bah


----------



## Flatlander

Pelopra said:


> me?


Think you are correctly typed at core 6. Also think you're likely social blindspot.


----------



## Meirsho

i'm SX cause i looke so shmeXXy and SP cause -I- think so. and SO cause i'm telling you about it


----------



## Emtropy

Meirsho said:


> i'm SX cause i looke so shmeXXy and SP cause -I- think so. and SO cause i'm telling you about it


Well we can't argue with that.  (oh sure we can. But idk anything about Merisho)


----------



## Meirsho

feel free to snoop around my proflie anddig into old posts of mine..make pop-corn and put some music..call a friend or 2 over..


----------



## Emtropy

^yeah, same. I looooove opinions and perspectives on my type; helps me build a sort of map, using other people's thoughts to come up with justifications.


----------



## Pelopra

Flatlander said:


> Think you are correctly typed at core 6. Also think you're likely social blindspot.


I've been having difficulty with the instincts... wanna elaborate on what made you think SO last? (I've had some suspicions but the descriptions I read were so seemingly contradictory I ended up throwing my hands up in despair) (it also doesn't help that my circumstances the past three years are pretty different from the majority of my life, which confuses things further)

eta: not super familiar with enneagram terminology, so does the term "core" in "core six" have any implications re:wings?


----------



## Flatlander

Pelopra said:


> I've been having difficulty with the instincts... wanna elaborate on what made you think SO last? (I've had some suspicions but the descriptions I read were so seemingly contradictory I ended up throwing my hands up in despair)


I've caught a few posts of yours around and they basically look like sp and sx combined. Especially one in the type 6 venting thread where you were talking about relationship concerns.

Note this isn't a super significant read, it's an outward opinion. Let me correct it to "social last", and note that "social last" the way I've come to understand it lately doesn't _necessarily_ mean you don't care about society/the world/etc., it is just a thing where your main pattern of neurosis (hence care) combines sx and sp in some order of prevalence and so-oriented thoughts are mostly an adjunct in mentality. 

Gimme your thinking if you think I'm wrong.


----------



## Animal

Does anyone have a case, gut feeling, or unexplained vote for me as:

- Sx/Sp vs. Sx/So
- 8 fix vs. 1 fix
- 3 wing vs 5 wing


----------



## Pelopra

Flatlander said:


> I've caught a few posts of yours around and they basically look like sp and sx combined. Especially one in the type 6 venting thread where you were talking about relationship concerns.
> 
> Note this isn't a super significant read, it's an outward opinion. Let me correct it to "social last", and note that "social last" the way I've come to understand it lately doesn't _necessarily_ mean you don't care about society/the world/etc., it is just a thing where your main pattern of neurosis (hence care) combines sx and sp in some order of prevalence and so-oriented thoughts are mostly an adjunct in mentality.
> 
> Gimme your thinking if you think I'm wrong.


i don't really think you're wrong-- i just had difficulty relating to the descriptions of the various subtypes.

I recently moved-- a major move, ie hundreds of miles away from anything familiar and all support systems. So technically it could be argued that so, sx, and sp all took a major hit.

it _seems_ to me that the one I'm noticing most is the lack of sp. Feeling very intensely the lack of a solid home base. On the other hand, sp descriptions seem very fixated on physical things like food and aesthetics, whereas I would describe what I feel lacking as _emotional_ safety. What i related to most in sp descriptions was mention of "nesting". I want a home, owned, not rented (I am so tired of moving). And I want it to have an atmosphere that feels comfortable and safe. (I guess that image does involve physical details, like "not the types of couches that scream neurotic germaphobe and make you feel guilty for being in the same room as them let alone sitting on them". hm.)
I also don't know that I identify with _any_ of the strengths listed as sp-typical. (I'm Ne-dom. I can forget to eat for a week if sufficiently distracted by a shiny idea. Heck, I identified with a ton of stuff given as sp-blindspot typical, in terms of neglecting or forgetting things, although I do respect the importance of those things being attended to. And it's my _in_ability to handle finances that stresses me out.)

as for sx... man, if I could get a straightforward understanding of what that's supposed to be that's great. lots of the descriptions sounded a bit weird to me (including, in 6 descriptions, an emphasis on "femininity"). 
wanting to merge with a person... i guess i can think of one or two relationships like that. on the other hand i have a nice, comfortable network of some 30 friends where I'm quite content with our level of closeness. (Hm. as I write that I'm disagreeing with myself. I guess I do like relationships to have a sense of motion, I'm just willing to have that be slow, and I don't really have this end goal in mind of "intense union"? just to be closer and understand each other better and appreciate each other more deeply). 
I generally enjoy and seek out new experiences, but I don't know if "intensity" is a criterion, although maybe I'm misunderstanding what is intended by the word intensity. 

As for social... Um, I didn't really identify with all the stuff about "identifying with a group identity" or "guarding the group" but I might just be lacking self-awareness i.e. i might be doing that on a unconscious level. My extent of social engineering is trying to create balance in groups of friends or mixing and matching people I think would enjoy each other's company. It's not that I disrespect it so much as I resent having to play by rules of people I don't really want to get along with but have to? ie I don't think I'd have a problem with an unwritten code of behaviour between myself and friends (I suspect one does exist, although I wouldn't be able to articulate it). what annoys me is paying a price for other people's rules... 


blaaa i also just don't feel i actually grasp what the instincts really are anyway.

also, thanks =)

thinking about it


> it is just a thing where your main pattern of neurosis (hence care) combines sx and sp in some order of prevalence and so-oriented thoughts are mostly an adjunct in mentality.


...is probably right......
(i just didn't think "main pattern of neurosis" = instinct)


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> Does anyone have a case, gut feeling, or unexplained vote for me as:
> 
> - Sx/Sp vs. Sx/So
> - 8 fix vs. 1 fix
> - 3 wing vs 5 wing


We've been over this. From the very start, I've seen you as 1 fixed. It's been clear as night and day, to me anyway. There's a lot of justification, explanation, an abiding concern with defending integrity; even in relatively minor situations, guilt is closer to the surface for you than it is for an 8 fixer. You also compare the goodness of your own behaviour/actions with the bitchiness/pushiness/rudeness or whatever of your opponent's behaviour, in a conflict. This is VERY 1. It's a way of establishing yourself as one who fought fair; there's an unconscious moral superiority to it that's quite 1ish. The emphasis on self-reliance is not 8 fix. 1s/1 fixers are often quite self-reliant. You also don't have as high a conflict threshold as an 8 fixer, to be honest. Being assertive etc. does not always translate to an 8 fix. 

I don't see 5 wing at all. As for instincts, I see sx/so intuitively. Based on our recent talks, I can see it. Sx/Sp isn't outlandish at all, but I think Sx/So is it. 

You had to comment on my tritype--

- emotional intensity 
- 4 influence
- Sx
- 7y stuff  and/or 3zy stuffz 
- thoughts, if any, on gut fix



I look fwd to reading what you have to say, when you have time.









i am attention whoring. anyone else wanna take a shot at it..feel free. XD


----------



## DomNapoleon

Animal said:


> Does anyone have a case, gut feeling, or unexplained vote for me as:
> 
> - Sx/Sp vs. Sx/So


Sx/So who over developed the sp instinct over time (but if you go with Sx/Sp I would still agree with it)




> - 8 fix vs. 1 fix


8w9 fix :shocked:




> - 3 wing vs 5 wing


3 wing :crazy:


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> You also compare the goodness of your own behaviour/actions with the bitchiness/pushiness/rudeness or whatever of your opponent's behaviour, in a conflict. This is VERY 1. It's a way of establishing yourself as one who fought fair; there's an unconscious moral superiority to it that's quite 1ish.


Oh oh oh this is so funny. And true. 



> I look fwd to reading what you have to say, when you have time. roud:
> 
> i am attention whoring. anyone else wanna take a shot at it..feel free. XD


I will get back to this asap. Thank you for the attention whoring reminder.  I have much to say, and the organization of it mentally is daunting, but I will say it. Or at least some of it, in pieces! As soon as possible!!!


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> Oh oh oh this is so funny. And true.


 *hugs* 




> I will get back to this asap. Thank you for the attention whoring reminder.  I have much to say, and the organization of it mentally is daunting, but I will say it. Or at least some of it, in pieces! As soon as possible!!!


Anytime! <3

I am, especially, interested in the gut fix argument. As we talked earlier, a lot of the arguments for a 1 fix, I have heard, revolve around the following unconvincing themes:-

- you are too calm
- you are too 'sophisticated'
- you do a lot of charity
- you have a few values
- you are wise, mature beyond your years 
- you are a competent professional and hate incompetence
- in essence, you are a 'good' person and that's superego influence

With the exception of these, I am very open to considering well-reasoned arguments. I haven't been able to shake off this pull towards 1 (<3 ), and god knows I have tried. I look forward to anything you have to share, whenever you're able. You know me very well, and I value your input.


----------



## Grau the Great

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Even though I've, unwittingly, as I lost track of time lol, provided a lot of material here lofl, I won't let you off the hook without a solid original argument for one fix or the other. :angry:
> 
> XDD
> 
> :3


I'll probably go through those points you made one-by-one in a few future posts, as there's a crapload of info to go through. However, I can tell you that one thing did jump out at me right away.

With a few minor exceptions, nothing you wrote here goes against a 1-fix. However, it also works perfectly well for an 8-fix. Behaviorally, the two types can seem very similar. We've talked about this before, how in some cases 8/1 is an even tougher distinction than the more well-known 8/cp6. What distinguishes the two of them isn't a set of behaviors or conscious thought patterns. It's a deeply ingrained, almost entirely unconscious compulsion. 

What defines the type 1 and separates "type 1 perfectionism" from perfectionism in one's daily habits (the two are *very* different, and IMO cause a lot of people to either mistype at 1, or wrongly assume they aren't a 1) is the fact that it's a constant, all-encompassing drive to compare and evaluate *everything*. A 1 compares and categorizes everything they encounter, measuring it against an internal standard they don't consciously construct and are often completely unaware of. That last part especially is a very important point, and it's by far the biggest reason I spent so much time typing at 8. I never experienced an "inner critic" the way 1s are said to. As I learned more and became more self-aware, I realized that it is there, though it's like what I just described as opposed to the overdeveloped conscience lots of descriptions make it out to be.

What's interesting about many 1s is that, again similar to the cp6, the effects of their habits and defense mechanisms are often much more apparent to others than the individual themselves. Sure, others might not know what *exactly* their thoughts or motivations are, but you can usually get a pretty good sense that this person is responding to something internal in a situation when other types would not.

As for how this relates to your answers, I don't see a lot of that underlying comparative evaluating in what you're saying here. A lot of it's very similar, true, especially what you write about 1. hating the world for its injustice and 2. saying that you love discontentment. The second one especially is interesting, because that's absolutely type 7 and not 1. It's similar, but your very next lines, "I love improvement. I see potential everywhere" couldn't be more 7 if you tried. A 1 has a similar, but decidedly more negative outlook than that. Unless very healthy, a 1 will focus on faults and need to work through their anger before seeing potential.

I also don't see much of that comparison-making in what you say about the injustices that anger you. We've talked about a lot of these subjects too, so I don't even have to tell you that our views are very similar here. But I see largely responsive anger in what you wrote, anger at the injustices themselves. A type 1 gets angry for a slightly different reason. A 1 will always (without trying, or even actively realizing it) see things as _*what could be*_ or _*what should be*_. They look at reality and are furious at how much of a complete fucking failure it is. That's what their anger is based in. Of course, I might be wrong, but I don't see that in what you wrote. It looks like far more of a direct response. It's wrong, innocent people are being hurt (the fact that you focus on children and the disabled highlights this), and you won't accept seeing innocent people being taken advantage of.


----------



## Flatlander

@_Cosmic Orgasm_

I think despite how you may look on the outside, you belong in the gut triad, and your likeliest core is 1.

I remember the first time I read your questionnaire, I was kind of overwhelmed by how much you put yourself _out there_. Everything about you in it was accented, had a lot of gusto, an outward nature and presence to it that was like one of my wildest dreams come true. I mean that in a neutral sense - if dreams are the province of unreality with respect to a person, then I saw you as personifying the kind of dreams and mindset that were denied me.

I don't think this is directly relevant to your core type, but it was enough to suggest to me that you were probably _not_ a mind type, and it didn't scream image to me either. Back then I didn't understand why I had that perception, but the thread called for an assessment, and my point of view on gut types was simpler in two key dimensions: one, I had a more superficial understanding of the themes of each gut type (8, 9 and 1), and two, I had a dim shade of the erroneous perception that 8 was the gutsiest of gut types, so I chose 8w9 as a type to suggest.

The reason I had the perception of you being not mind (or image, but especially mind) has become clear to me by now, though.

Mind types struggle with fear of _doing_. All of 5, 6 and 7 are going to struggle, on some front, with self-imposed incompetence in action. They deal with the doubt about their competence in different ways which by now you're versed in, but the common theme is that they fall into cycles or types of thought or mental engagement that prevent them from being truly effective or active while maintaining their own illusion that they are, because thought or mentally-driven experience gets falsely equated with action. For the 5, it's something like trying to understand or see everything about the world; for the 6, it's something like facing possible consequences or figuring out what is true; for the 7, it's something like merely indulging in the experience of the world or mind. All three may try to make themselves into sharp wits, intelligent minds, or what have you, so that they are seen as having any actionable place at all in the world.

Viewing the centers as places where you are compensating for deficit, and your own core type as a way of dealing with it, I don't think you are _any_ mind core. I haven't seen that you struggle with taking action in this way. I haven't seen you deluding yourself around action.

Instead, I see you as a pre-emptive actor. 1s and 8s both do it in different ways but they are both driven by the same kind of raw force that makes a person move before they justify it. That's what I see in you that I'm missing: action potential.

The reason I think you're 1 over 8 is that the conglomerate of my experience with you and watching you that suggests that you are natively preoccupied with being right. This doesn't inherently make a person some moral old stiff toad like some of the "theorists" try to suggest for type 1, but it can make them forceful and driven toward effectiveness at controlling situations, especially ones they feel within their intellectual or personal purview. You interact on so many threads around the forum to correct understandings from others about the enneagram that you feel are wrong based on your understanding and experience, justified by you having taken in enough information to become an expert; you appear to be making decisions about whom to hold as your equal vs. not based on your own judgement of their prowess with the material at hand; you have views that are expressed very forcefully and yet you seem to hold no shade of fear that you might be wrong. 

I'd add that I suspect it took a lot in your life to bring you to introspection that was closer to the chest. You got there relatively early because you faced a lot of bad stuff going on in your short period of time in the world, but it seems like the reason you delved into Enneagram is that you needed to figure out what was _wrong_ with you, what your _faults_ are. This reads like a connection between 1 and 4. 

Plus, Naranjo gives type 1 that hidden connection to 5 that goes toward explaining how (if not necessarily why) a 1's mastery drive can be seen as 5ish. The way I've come to interpret that line as opposed to a line of integration is that, given 1, 7 vs 5 as an example, 7s are repressing the bit of 5 in themselves that would round them out, while 1s have a false shadow of it that only reveals the two types to be in opposition to each other. I don't see you as personally linked to 5 at all, just like I'm not personally linked to 1 but notice certain symmetries we have in concept.

With wings, I would put you at 1w2 over 1w9. Stacking-wise I know you type at sp/sx, though I could also see a case for you at sx/sp based on some stuff you've shared.

Anyway you are someone I've been pondering since I encountered you on the forum. You've been one of those specific cases in my mind that's helped me refine and add to my view of how the Enneagram works. And finally solidifying my idea of type 1 for you made certain things click in my brain that didn't before. My native faculty doesn't come through details, it is instead in garnering insight into the conceptual scope of how a thing is founded, so I don't have a ton of direct specifics about you to fall back on in making my case, but I hope you'll take it into consideration.


----------



## Sina

@_Flatlander_

Good stuff!  I appreciate you putting it out there; and I said from the start on this thread, I was open to typing suggestions other than 3 and 7 or whatever.

That was a well-considered argument, and I will respond to some of it. I am certain that learning more about type 1, more like my own relationship with the type, will help me understand my connection with the gut centre.

I recall you being quite convinced of an 8 typing for me, and we discussed it at great length. Has anything, besides my competence and my "corrections" of poorly articulated or interpreted Enneagram theory, come to your attention that points away from an 8 (fix, mind you lol)? 

If you see my post on the previous page, you would notice I mentioned that competency oriented punitive and correcting streak when I notice misinformation on a subject. It was interesting that you extrapolated from that, as well. Nice co-incidence.  I have always known that I don't just appear 8ish but also can appear 1ish.

I will give your thoughts due consideration.  Also, anything specific making you look at Sx dom? You've considered Sx last for me in the past; so, I am intrigued by the suggestion. I do have strong Sx, although my neuroses lie in the Sp domain. It's quite possible that my intensity (rather Sx 1 or 8ish) gives the impression of Sx dominance. Have you any thoughts on my head fix? 

<3 Thanks again 

p.s. I respect the honest sharing of your own life experiences. That helps provide a lot of perspective.


----------



## Flatlander

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Flatlander_
> 
> Great stuff!  I appreciate you putting out there; and I said from the start on this thread, I was open to typing suggestions other than 3 and 7 or whatever.
> 
> That was a well-considered argument, and I will respond to some of it. Though, I am certain that learning more about type 1 will help me understand my connection with the gut centre.
> 
> I recall you being quite convinced of an 8 typing for me, and we discussed it at great length. Has anything, besides my competence and my "corrections" of poorly articulated or interpreted Enneagram theory, come to your attention that points away from an 8 (fix, mind you lol)?
> 
> If you see my post on the previous page, you would notice I mentioned that competency oriented punitive and correcting streak when I notice misinformation on a subject. It was interesting that you extrapolated from that, as well. Nice co-incidence.
> 
> I will give your thoughts due consideration.  Also, anything specific making you look at Sx dom? You've considered Sx last for me in the past; so, I am intrigued by the suggestion. I do have strong Sx, although my neuroses lie in the Sp domain. It's quite possible that my intensity (rather Sx 1 or 8ish) gives the impression of Sx dominance. Have you any thoughts on my head fix?
> 
> <3 Thanks again


I noticed a lot of this stuff about you in the period between making an argument for your type at 8 and this point, before you wrote about it on the thread. I was simply uncertain how to place it in the context of type.

I'd place my idea of your tritype at 137: 1w2, 3w4, 7w8. It goes some way toward explaining the pattern of manifestation you have while being a core 1, which is all tritype is really for in the end.

As for the sx/sp thought, it has to do with some of what I understand of your issues surrounding family. I'll leave it at that because I don't know how personal I (or you?) want to get on this thread. I'm not denying the probability of sp/sx, just adding in a point for consideration.

As I mentioned above (and should probably be visible), my understanding has evolved greatly since I made that case. It's evolved on every front. That is due to the nature of my thinking - evolutionary and hence tending toward depth, yet flexible. One of my strengths leaning on this dynamic is that I tend to make original thinking out of what I encounter. One of my weaknesses is that I can't immediately be _right_ about things because I'm not matching things up to an external standard, but trying to understand what I see in my own way, and that can take a lot of time. For me the act of making an argument, therefore, is an act of testing my understanding against the world so I can build it more, and that is what I was doing when I was "convinced" of you at 8.

Perhaps my understanding of you will shift significantly again with more time, as there is no element of the outside world that is as certain to me as I am to myself, but I think my conclusion now holds more accuracy and fidelity to the spirit of the enneagram than before. I prefer to scry for what looks most underlying in terms of triad (gut/heart/mind) now, before thinking about specific core, while before I was more concerned with the specific themes of the types. The reason to go for 1 as opposed to 8 is that you don't seem to deal with things in a way I'd associate with 8 over 1 as a type, you match my concept of how a 'control' (idealist) type works as opposed to a 'power' (rejection) type, the pattern of 1 appears more clearly in you than the pattern of 8, and so forth, just another load of analytical detail.


----------



## Sina

Flatlander said:


> I noticed a lot of this stuff about you in the period between making an argument for your type at 8 and this point, before you wrote about it on the thread. I was simply uncertain how to place it in the context of type.
> 
> I'd place my idea of your tritype at 137: 1w2, 3w4, 7w8. It goes some way toward explaining the pattern of manifestation you have while being a core 1, which is all tritype is really for in the end.


Okay  Yes, that's one of the two tritypes I am considering.


> As for the sx/sp thought, it has to do with some of what I understand of your issues surrounding family. I'll leave it at that because I don't know how personal I want to get on this thread. I'm not denying the probability of sp/sx, just adding in a point for consideration.


We could address this over skype .



> As I mentioned above (and should probably be visible), my understanding has evolved greatly since I made that case. It's evolved on every front. That is due to the nature of my thinking - evolutionary and hence tending toward depth, yet flexible. One of my strengths leaning on this dynamic is that I tend to make original thinking out of what I encounter. One of my weaknesses is that I can't immediately be _right_ about things because I'm not matching things up to an external standard, but trying to understand what I see in my own way, and that can take a lot of time. For me the act of making an argument, therefore, is an act of testing my understanding against the world so I can build it more, and that is what I was doing when I was "convinced" of you at 8.
> 
> Perhaps my understanding of you will shift significantly again with more time, as there is no element of the outside world that is as certain to me as I am to myself, but I think my conclusion now holds more accuracy and fidelity to the spirit of the enneagram than before.


Of course! FYI, that was not expressed as a criticism of your thought process. When I change typings, I am aware of what led me towards or away from a typing, in that either my understanding of the person improved and/or of the type did. Given my vast memory, I retain these details without really trying to. Such details can help with self-reflection, which is why I brought that up. Your thought process is just fine. One has to be flexible with typings, and I have, myself, updated my typings of two forum members recently. Many times, my first impressions are enduring. But, there are times when they evolve.

And, if and when your perception shifts further, know that I'd be just as willing to hear you out. I appreciate your ruminations. 
Now, the day you make a 9 or other withdrawn suggestion for me, I shall shave my head off in mourning. @Animal, LMAO, I said that once about a certain someone..someone..and a totally unthinkable 'fear' came true. So, I hope I'd have better luck this time Flatty!  lofl


----------



## Flatlander

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Now, the day you make a 9 or other withdrawn suggestion for me, I shall shave my head off in mourning.


I'd be right there with ya.


----------



## Figure

@_Cosmic Orgasm_ a _One core_? It'll be a cold day in Havana before that ever happens. Instead of responding to your previous post (which I was grateful for) from the other day, which was my original intent, I'm going to respond to this. To get straight to the point, as much as I find your perspectives on our type flattering and self-inflating, they are largely much more grandiose than the actual experience of the type is, and in some instances paint the type in a way that hides some of the not so wonderful things about it. 

Anger is at the core of a type 1, but it isn't "anger simmering away" in entirety - this is more often than not the byproduct of the more fundamental mechanism of the type, as I will describe below. Which is, essentially, to use the Superego as a means of re-directing Id impulses in a way that will win acceptance or survival. The passion and zeal of a type 1 originates at the Id, where it is deemed impossible to unleash into the real world, and transferred into acting in ways that "make better" or "make more appropriate" via whatever the Superego dictates is "better." In other words, I obviously can't grab a girl I think is hot as fuck and start fucking her in the middle of the street and need something to control such impulses - so if I get rid of those types of impulses and replace them with something better - as a polite, "good" person who abstains until marriage to save my desires for the girl "I really love" - I've gotten rid of the dangerous, edgy impulse and replaced it with something that will not get me into trouble, and will overpower the "bad." I've redeemed my badness so to speak, with something "good," and if it hadn't been for my Superego's concept of "good and bad," that may not have happened. 

This mechanism can be applied to much less extreme drives and much less extreme situations the 1 encounters minute by minute. If I'm ready to post something on the forum and don't think it's justifiable, well-written, or lacks acceptable basis, I'll work with it for quite a long time, unwittingly afraid that simply spewing ideas for fun is wrong and not constructive, and my Superego will criticize me for not doing something about it. Either way, there is a blockage of wants and spontaneous impulses. There are these urges and drives on the fly inside, and I can't indulge in them, or I'm going to do something absolutely heinous - so I MUST push them down for good and do something better in its place to prove it. 

One would think, rationally, that a 1 would realize this isn't possible and stop trying to do the impossible - but the word "fixation" in this context means a constant focus, and this sense of "what is wrong" is what 1's fixate upon. It is also the source of their anger, as they are literally trying to suffocate something about themselves that will never go away, and always doomed to fail - so they try and do, do, and do more to convince themselves that they or their surroundings are indeed good, or at least improving/heading in the right direction. I did XYZ, so I am in fact a good person, and have reason to inflate myself a bit - and again, as I have just described in the Id-Superego battles, if it isn't what I want it to be, I become dissatisfied because what I want isn't what I see, and I "must" do something about it as a result of that dissatisfaction or else my Superego will nail me. 

Now you may see why the Superego is so critical to understanding the type, as well as why they must be Compliant. The 1's close alignment with the Superego guarantees that they will not ever let all of this latent but very powerful Id drive out, and that it is the only way they will not be wrong.



I do NOT see this in your posts here, or in speaking with you online. I do not see a lack of spontaneity, or that you are speaking as someone closely aligned with your inner critic. And as I hope you see, we are not heroes, or righteous justice crusaders until we mature. We're just as undeveloped and crude as the other types, we're just too fearful to let ourselves really experience it enough to realize that it isn't that bad. If we were really as wonderful and awesome as you say, we'd have no problem fessing up to our own shortcomings, and embracing them as they are. That's real integrity, not the imitation of it we delude ourselves with.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Figure said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_ a _One core_? It'll be a cold day in Havana before that ever happens.


Well, despite the differences between the two of you, you do seem to have that "I am right!"-attitude in common. :wink:


----------



## Figure

Nonsense said:


> Well, despite the differences between the two of you, you do seem to have that "I am right!"-attitude in common. :wink:


7 has a line to 1.


----------



## Animal

And finally the Gently Honest Thread gets juicy. What a bloodbath! :angry: Leave it to @_Cosmic Orgasm_ to inspire an onslaught of passionate posts with her tasty volcanic rage. /hungry for moar


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Figure said:


> 7 has a line to 1.


Heh, yeah I'm aware.


----------



## Sina

Figure said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_ a _One core_? It'll be a cold day in Havana before that ever happens. Instead of responding to your previous post (which I was grateful for) from the other day, which was my original intent, I'm going to respond to this. To get straight to the point, as much as I find your perspectives on our type flattering and self-inflating, they are largely much more grandiose than the actual experience of the type is, and in some instances paint the type in a way that hides some of the not so wonderful things about it.



LOL You're annoying me, Figure. And, I'll give it to you this time around. Before I start on that, the only applicable thing or useful thing about this post was the extrapolation on how superego functions and not just in type 1s. 


With that said, what exactly are you responding to? Are you responding to @_Flatlander_'s post about a proposed 1 typing, because I sure as fuck didn't say I typed at 1. Are you responding to my post about the 8 or 1 fix? If so, you better pay very close attention to what I am about to say and stop ascribing ridiculous motivations to me:-


1. The 8/1 fix post was a product of some deep fuckin soul searching. I will not have you present another one of your passive aggressive 'veiled criticisms' berating that, and let it slide past me this time around. Enough of that bullshit. It's weak as shit and old as fuck. Find another pastime. 

Yeah? You can do better than that lofl. Hell, that whole post was a fuckin strawman if I ever saw one lolz.

I don't give a flying fuck about aggrandizing the type, as much as I love it. I spoke of MY experiences (and I don't type as 1, so what's your damn point anyway?) relating to 8 and/or 1. 

Where did you read grandiosity? What part of the post said I was describing core 1? Your pseudo-diatribe about an inflated perception of 1s and the righteous moral crusader shit is absolute rubbish. That recycled unoriginal garbage isn't doing you any favours. Mmkay? 



2. My mother who abused the crap out of me for years is a Type 1. "Wonderful and Awesome" my ass. What in the fuck? LOFL

I know a fuck ton of type 1s who don't give two hoots about what happens to 'alien populations'. I know 1s who wouldn't donate a dollar to charity, even legit charities, because they don't give a fuck. In fact, I was going to start a thread about the stupidity of associating goodness with someone being a superego type. Fuck 'moral crusaders'. Where the hell did you get that in a post where I was talking about my own experiences with how much I detest inequality and more, thanks to what I have endured and gotten past? 

There are Type 1s I actively look down on and treat like shit every chance I get because I find their 'principles' an abomination upon the very idea of 'principles'. There are 1s I'd have long murdered and burnt alive were there no legal consequences for the same. Aggrandizing my ass. 

I dated a 1 type for years, who fell apart in my arms; and there wasn't a damn thing I could do, no matter what I tried, to keep him from destroying himself. Do not for a second assume that I see the type as some kind of invincible, ever so righteous and good, moral crusader archetype or whatever the fuck you have in mind. Are there Ones who are righteous and good, who crusade for the rights of others? YES I love such 1s, and I love such people from any type. Are their Ones who are fuckin wimpy ass cowards? YES And, I actively look down on them, humiliate them and mock them, as I do on such people from any type. 

I am under no obligation, what-so-fuckin-ever, to shed light on the trials and tribulations of being a Type 1 unless I am addressing a subject that requires this. You can chew on that. You wanna talk about how much life sucks for you 'as a 1', go right ahead. Don't fuckin expect me to go covering the difficulties the type experiences (and I am well fuckin acquainted with the same, theoretically and oh hell from experience with 1s) every time I drop a comment about the type.


You had asked me once why I liked the type. You can tell I am one generous bitch today. So, I will oblige you.  I am obviously not addressing low-functioning Ones. I won't go into too much detail, because I will leave that for my "YAY OMG 1s are the best" thread, which I am sure will make your lil ass cringe. <3 It'll be well worth it.:laughing: In the meantime, I will keep on gushing. :3

a) Ones- *whose values align with my own*- make great friends to me because they can fuckin take me. They don't fear me. They don't fear my anger or my intensity. They are grounded and decisive. If they are blessed with objectivity, which not all of them are, they help me grow with their astute observations even if critical. 

They are uncompromisingly themselves. They are honest about who they are, and they don't put up with my nonsense. They are strong individuals who can go against the grain, who can defy convention or whatever else and stick to their guns-- doing what they believe is right. Even if I disagree, I can respect the conviction it takes. Most people, Ones are not, are too fuckin spineless to stand up for their principles these days. And, if I disagree with a 1s principles and how they function, I will hate their damn guts and may still respect the conviction behind their actions. This applies to people (strong minded) of all types. The ones I know often tend to be 1s or cp6s, though obviously not to the exclusion of other types. There we go. 

Everyone has type 'favourites', and those are mine. Have an issue with that? Be my guest. :kitteh:


> Anger is at the core of a type 1, but it isn't "anger simmering away" in entirety - this is more often than not the byproduct of the more fundamental mechanism of the type, as I will describe below. Which is, essentially, to use the Superego as a means of re-directing Id impulses in a way that will win acceptance or survival. The passion and zeal of a type 1 originates at the Id, where it is deemed impossible to unleash into the real world, and transferred into acting in ways that "make better" or "make more appropriate" via whatever the Superego dictates is "better." In other words, I obviously can't grab a girl I think is hot as fuck and start fucking her in the middle of the street and need something to control such impulses - so if I get rid of those types of impulses and replace them with something better - as a polite, "good" person who abstains until marriage to save my desires for the girl "I really love" - I've gotten rid of the dangerous, edgy impulse and replaced it with something that will not get me into trouble, and will overpower the "bad." I've redeemed my badness so to speak, with something "good," and if it hadn't been for my Superego's concept of "good and bad," that may not have happened.


Okay


> This mechanism can be applied to much less extreme drives and much less extreme situations the 1 encounters minute by minute. If I'm ready to post something on the forum and don't think it's justifiable, well-written, or lacks acceptable basis, I'll work with it for quite a long time, unwittingly afraid that simply spewing ideas for fun is wrong and not constructive, and my Superego will criticize me for not doing something about it. Either way, there is a blockage of wants and spontaneous impulses. There are these urges and drives on the fly inside, and I can't indulge in them, or I'm going to do something absolutely heinous - so I MUST push them down for good and do something better in its place to prove it.


Right 

Not that I didn't know this but sure.


> One would think, rationally, that a 1 would realize this isn't possible and stop trying to do the impossible - but the word "fixation" in this context means a constant focus, and this sense of "what is wrong" is what 1's fixate upon. It is also the source of their anger, as they are literally trying to suffocate something about themselves that will never go away, and always doomed to fail - so they try and do, do, and do more to convince themselves that they or their surroundings are indeed good, or at least improving/heading in the right direction. I did XYZ, so I am in fact a good person, and have reason to inflate myself a bit - and again, as I have just described in the Id-Superego battles, if it isn't what I want it to be, I become dissatisfied because what I want isn't what I see, and I "must" do something about it as a result of that dissatisfaction or else my Superego will nail me.


Good one on how superego works, 1 or not. 



> Now you may see why the Superego is so critical to understanding the type, as well as why they must be Compliant. The 1's close alignment with the Superego guarantees that they will not ever let all of this latent but very powerful Id drive out, and that it is the only way they will not be wrong.


Mmhmm I know




> I do NOT see this in your posts here, or in speaking with you online. I do not see a lack of spontaneity, or that you are speaking as someone closely aligned with your inner critic. And as I hope you see, we are not heroes, or righteous justice crusaders until we mature. We're just as undeveloped and crude as the other types, we're just too fearful to let ourselves really experience it enough to realize that it isn't that bad. If we were really as wonderful and awesome as you say, we'd have no problem fessing up to our own shortcomings, and embracing them as they are. That's real integrity, not the imitation of it we delude ourselves with.


I am only considering a 1 fix; so if you don't see core 1, I am not shell shocked. 

Your ass doesn't need to show me what a 1 is or isn't, especially where 'heroism' is concerned. Fuck heroism. Fuck that bullshit. I have said a gazillian times on this forum, that all types are equally fucked up, just in different ways. So, that Ennnea-kindergarten level rubbish you're on about is sure as fuck not news to me. Maybe it was to you. Sure as hell that's not me. 

Don 't try to fuckin 'teach' me shit I know better than you, from study and experience, and don't distort my words into fitting your own warped understanding of my 'infatuation' with 1s. I know all about the shortcomings, flaws and faults of the type and then some. That affected tone of yours is a total fuckin joke, Figure. You keep talking to me that way, and I'll keep smacking your ass and laughing at the hilarity of it all. You can do better than serving as pesky fodder for my entertainment. 

Want to keep your discussions productive around me? Cut the crap, and you'll do just fine. 
@_Animal_

Oh yes, I inspire such passions in the hearts of men, women and beasts. Mmm.. gurl. I know what you mean.

:laughing:


----------



## mimesis

@_Figure_ last time I checked I didn't see many couples fucking on the street, in fact none, so I don't see how compliance to social values or excercise self-control is in any way exclusively descriptive of type 1, or even compliant types. Reaction formation, what you described is indeed linked to type 1, but it is a defense mechanism not exclusive to type, or attributive, but rather, as with all defense mechanisms or corresponding pathology, it plays out and can be explained in line with the type's perspective (and for instance a 1 could be narcissistic). 

That is, I would find it more significant if you could explain it in coherence with vice/virtue, fixation and holy idea, or even integration/disintegration. That's the problem I think also with this Id/Ego/Superego breakdown, as if we were 'nothing more' than animals if it weren't for the superego. We don't just want to do the right thing to be accepted or to survive, (in this sense its compliance wouldn't be different from 2 or 6), we want (to do) the right thing period. Liberation is not likely achieved when you have become a perfectly good person, because let's be real, how likely is that going to happen? Liberation (and Serenity) is accomplished when you are free from the fear (anger) being corrupt or imperfect. Will the world still be 'wrong' in so many ways? I betcha. Then what happened with the resentment? Why did it make you angry? Maybe because you (in the example) chose abstinence and disciplined yourself (or suffer trying to) and other's just didn't bother? In that sense I think a lot of the anger @_Cosmic Orgasm_ mentioned can be related to herself. (and I also think this is essentially different in comparison with 8 and 9)


----------



## Figure

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Don 't try to fuckin 'teach' me shit I know better than you, from study and experience, and don't distort my words into fitting your own warped understanding of my 'infatuation' with 1s. I know all about the shortcomings, flaws and faults of the type and then some. That affected tone of yours is a total fuckin joke, Figure. You keep talking to me that way, and I'll keep smacking your ass and laughing at the hilarity of it all. You can do better than serving as pesky fodder for my entertainment.
> 
> Want to keep your discussions productive around me? Cut the crap, and you'll do just fine.
> @_Animal_


A few comments.

Firstly, I ended up responding to the outrageous claim that you could be a 1 core. 

Secondly, I think it's so interesting to watch how you respond to criticism, and to being "annoyed." Say "that's just how I talk" all you want, but that's a pretty impassioned response. I can now cite several examples, on here and on Skype, where you didn't hold up to it without reacting, and I think it says something interesting about you that may be one more thing to consider in your typing "journey." Not all types would be likely to respond that way.

Thirdly, fair enough about my post beating a dead horse. However, this is the first I have ever seen you talk about the type in any kind of a realistic way, so I still think your attempt to act like you don't give the type undue credit is bullshit, and I will continue to call it out, whether it irritates you or not. 

Fourthly, to be honest, your insane responses are every bit as entertaining to me as mine are to you, and I definitely started out trying to egg you on to see what you would do - at least before I started liking what I was writing and just spewed the rest of it out in the event that people actually DO believe your behavior is representative of core 1. 

Now, more serious stuff:



mimesis said:


> @_Figure last time I checked I didn't see many couples fucking on the street, in fact none, so I don't see how compliance to social values or excercise self-control is in any way exclusively descriptive of type 1, or even compliant types. Reaction formation, what you described is indeed linked to type 1, but it is a defense mechanism not exclusive to type, or attributive, but rather, as with all defense mechanisms or corresponding pathology, it plays out and can be explained in line with the type's perspective (and for instance a 1 could be narcissistic). _


First of all, your first sentence makes absolutely no sense, and if that's the logic you're relying on, I'd recommend giving it a second thought. Second of all, if you don't think the Superego has to do with your environment, or that self-control is not descriptive of type 1, I'd recommend giving your entire _post _a second thought. Because saying that something is "linked" to a type but that is not exclusive to it does absolutely nothing to negate the fact that it is a critical component of the type's defense structure. 



> That is, I would find it more significant if you could explain it in coherence with vice/virtue, fixation and holy idea, or even integration/disintegration. That's the problem I think also with this Id/Ego/Superego breakdown, as if we were 'nothing more' than animals if it weren't for the superego. We don't just want to do the right thing to be accepted or to survive, (in this sense its compliance wouldn't be different from 2 or 6), we want (to do) the right thing period.


So be it. 

The vice for this type is anger. The virtue is serenity. The fixation is resentment. The holy idea is perfection. And the line of integration is to 7, and the line of disintegration is to 4. 

In this type, the holy idea is perfection, or a sensitivity to experiencing a moving, spontaneous, vibrant engagement with reality, that is literally flawless and incredibly impactful on its own. Because this is an ideal and type 1 is sensitive to the absence of their holy idea, the 1 often sees the space between their holy ideal and what evidently "is." This space makes the 1 angry, as their holy idea never seems to materialize no matter what they do, in vain, to bring it about. The fixation of resentment involves a compulsive habit of shifting attention directly to the flaws of something experienced internally or externally so as to come closer to their holy ideal. 

The virtue of serenity comes in when the 1 learns to stop trying to crusade for their holy ideal, and simply engage with what is without judging it positive or negative. Integration to 7 means the habit of jumping straight to what is "wrong" goes away, and whatever spontaneity was being blocked before is allowed to run its course. Disintegration to 4 occurs when the 1 begins to feel shame for not living up to their standards, and they fall into despair, feeling worthless in the face of repeated inability to materialize what they want. 



> Liberation is not likely achieved when you have become a perfectly good person, because let's be real, how likely is that going to happen? Liberation (and Serenity) is accomplished when you are free from the fear (anger) being corrupt or imperfect. Will the world still be 'wrong' in so many ways? I betcha. Then what happened with the resentment? Why did it make you angry? Maybe because you (in the example) chose abstinence and disciplined yourself (or suffer trying to) and other's just didn't bother? In that sense I think a lot of the anger @_Cosmic Orgasm mentioned can be related to herself. (and I also think this is essentially different in comparison with 8 and 9)_


Essentially, this says our fixation is a delusion. Well no shit, and so is yours. 

Again, for Cosmic I'm not arguing over a fix, I'm arguing over a core. If you have textual evidence to bring forward that supports that last point, please post it.


----------



## Sina

Figure said:


> A few comments.
> 
> Firstly, I ended up responding to the outrageous claim that you could be a 1 core.


Say that. 



> Secondly, I think it's so interesting to watch how you respond to criticism, and to being "annoyed." Say "that's just how I talk" all you want, but that's a pretty impassioned response.


I said at the very start of the post, that I was responding in annoyance. Sure, I ended up pretty amused in several places. That's always fun.  

Anyway, it was sure as hell, not a case of "just how I talk". I responded in annoyance and honestly stated that up front, to you, a person I considered was close enough to me that I didn't expect you to go barfing completely irrelevant and pointless garbage about my understanding of a type, based on a post where I had shared deeply personal things. Now, you say, it was a response to a different post. Sure. Miscommunication there. Shit happens.

That said, consider yourself honoured that I reacted the way I did because I actually "Expected" better from you than that bullshit, because you weren't some random internet jackass to me. 

Hell, I think it's equally interesting that a so-called Type 1 like you goes around poking and prodding for 'reactions'. You didn't think I had missed the boat on that one, did ya?  Don't for a second think that I slipped and 'reacted' to your silly goading antics. I knew exactly what I was doing, and I knew exactly what you were doing. You're really not all that 'strategic', Figure. In fact, you're pretty easy to play. 

Now, that's some more "reaction" for you to lick. <3

When your so-called 'criticism' is nothing but pretentious, biased spew that doesn't even begin to hit on making any relevant points about my understanding of a type, especially which in my estimation is based on a sensitive post, I will bless you with more 'impassioned' responses. You'll love it more and more, each time. But, you've been running out of steam, already. Psh. XD

Unlike your weak indirect bullshit, I have received a crap load of objective criticism from people in public and private, that has been received well. You start getting your facts straight, and start communicating in a less muddled fashion (we've recently had another argument because your point got lost amidst indirect crap); once that's done, your comments will receive similar attention, instead of 'impassioned' mockery. 



> I can now cite several examples, on here and on Skype, where you didn't hold up to it without reacting, and I think it says something interesting about you that may be one more thing to consider in your typing "journey." Not all types would be likely to respond that way.



Oh, regale me. <3 You'd know all about a typing "journey". Yours has been fairly illustrious and meandering. A veritable epic, if I may say so myself loll. 

Am I hearing this from the same person who wants input on his type, and starts off with "you're wrong, I am the type I think I am" ? Projection much? 

You have a low as hell threshold for disagreement, dude. Forget about criticism. The 'insanity' of that has cracked me up on more than one occasion. That isn't exactly the hallmark of trust in one's own judgment. Oh well. :kitteh:

As usual, calling flimsy passive aggression objective criticism doesn't make it so. Okay? Sure, I could explain it more. But, I won't insult your intelligence further. As for what types behave like and don't, you're better off not getting me started on your own..not right now anyway. 



> Thirdly, fair enough about my post beating a dead horse. However, this is the first I have ever seen you talk about the type in any kind of a realistic way, so I still think your attempt to act like you don't give the type undue credit is bullshit, and I will continue to call it out, whether it irritates you or not.



In large part, it was a misunderstanding . The pronounced annoyance came from the fact that I thought you were responding solely to my 8/1 fixer post, where I had shared a lot of sensitive details, and where I couldn't have given less of a fuck if I tried about 'aggrandizing' a type. It wasn't my response to you thinking more generally that I have a preference for the type. Had I thought that, I would have taken your comments very differently. 

Having said that, that 'preference' for 1s does not reflect upon my understanding of said type, so your pretentious and silly imitation of a Type 1 'holier than thou' tone is still pitifully ridiculous. :laughing:

I will give any type whatever the hell credit I want.  And, you can keep letting that chap your lil butt. It's pretty cute. 



> Fourthly, to be honest, your insane responses are every bit as entertaining to me as mine are to you, and I definitely started out trying to egg you on to see what you would do - at least before I started liking what I was writing and just spewed the rest of it out in the event that people actually DO believe your behavior is representative of core 1.


Oh, you are very honest Figure. You are the _living embodiment_ of honesty. Aren't ya? XD

Your attempt to 'egg me' on was transparent as fuck, and it'd do you well to ponder why a core gut type feels the need to childishly goad for reactions. Mhmm....

I am glad you enjoy my _insanity_ as much as I mock yours! You're not nearly as entertaining as I am, must be that hitherto under-activated line to 7? 




> Again, for Cosmic I'm not arguing over a fix, I'm arguing over a core. If you have textual evidence to bring forward that supports that last point, please post it.


Cosmic wasn't arguing a core 1 either. LMAO I love this whole fuckin dumbass misunderstanding. :laughing:

Oh Lordy! lofl
@_mimesis_

In what ways do you think the anger comes from within me in a way distinct from 8 and 9? I think we've had that talk before. I care neither for imperfection, nor do I care for corrupted ideals. If there's another reason why you see the anger as having a One source, I'd be very interested in hearing your side.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

I think that I should bring popcorn for reading this amusing debate. I would troll here (dunno if that makes me less of a core 1 hurr), but meh, I will wait until I see something really hilarious, besides saying that type 1s wouldn't say spontaneous comments for the lulz. Seems like my own superego isn't doing it's job, or I've worked too much for leaving it on a weaker state.


----------



## Vanguard

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I said at the very start of the post, that I was responding in annoyance. It was sure as fuck, not a case of "just how I talk". I responded in annoyance and honestly stated that up front, to you, a person I considered was close enough to me that I didn't expect you to go barfing completely irrelevant and pointless garbage about my understanding of a type, based on a post where I had shared deeply personal things. Now, you say, it was a response to a different post. Sure. Miscommunication there. Shit happens.
> 
> That said, consider yourself honoured that I reacted the way I did because I actually "Expected" better from you than that bullshit, because you weren't some *random internet jackass* to me.
> 
> [snip]
> :laughing:
> 
> Oh Lordy! lofl


Exactly, because that honour belongs to me.

You sure do write a lot about this business winky. And read a lot. And know a lot of people who discuss this. But that hasn't got you closer to who you are, at your core. Why? Information overload. Leads to mixing - take the whole colour spectrum, start to meld and weave them together and you get haze. 

As for your type - I stand by my original judgement, as you come across as hollow and lacking substance, despite your efforts to re-write Encyclopedia Britannica over here. For someone like you, its best to Bruce Lee the situation - strip away the inessential. Focus on dynamics of the types - because frankly one could spin themselves into being any type if they tried hard enough. 

Want to start real debate on this - call it out. What you see as type 1, 3, 7, 8 (those are the types you consider I believe). What are they, really, to you. What resonates. What doesn't. Hack away the inessential and get to the essence of things. 

Anyway, do carry on.


----------



## Sina

Blue Flare said:


> I think that I should bring popcorn for reading this amusing debate. I would troll here (dunno if that makes me less of a core 1 hurr), but meh, I will wait until I see something really hilarious, besides saying that type 1s wouldn't say spontaneous comments for the lulz. Seems like my own superego isn't doing it's job, or I've worked too much for leaving it on a weaker state.


Spontaneity and sex in public does not befit Type 1s! :angry:

Us 1s are staid brittle perfectionists with sticks up our asses, or is that too sexual a comment? Have I scandalized your delicate un-spontaneous, asexual Type 1 sensibilities yet?

And, if you troll me, I will come right out and snatch that Type 1 card away. Trolling is surely beneath US type 1s.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Spontaneity and sex in public does not befit Type 1s! :angry:
> 
> Us 1s are staid brittle perfectionists with sticks up our asses, or is that too sexual a comment? Have I scandalized your delicate un-spontaneous, asexual Type 1 sensibilities yet?
> 
> And, if you troll me, I will come right out and snatch that Type 1 card away. Trolling is surely beneath US type 1s.


I also think that type 1s don't watch wacky anime like Samurai Champloo -troll- you didn't offend me with that comment, haha.

I'm sorry, but trolling is part of my core nature, I've trolled people on other forums as well lol does this make me a type 7 in disguise? it may be true that I'm a broken 7 and that I'm a 1 now, because I'm so damn unhealthy. -troll-


----------



## Sina

@_Vanguard_

Is my ostentatious New-Agey lil Ennea-_sage_ back? Come here, you. Give me a hug. My malevolence wants a piece of dat Bruce Lee inessential stripping away mumbo-jumbo. 

I'll respond in a bit. Also, I don't recall your initial typing of me. So, remind me what that was.

@LeoCat

I'll shred you in a bit.


----------



## bombsaway

I'm not sure I hang around enough for someone to correct me on my typing. ~however~I have just reconsidered my instincts and decided on So/Sp instead of So/Sx, which is what I previously typed as. I'd be willing to listen to arguments against that from anyone that's seen me around 
roud:


----------



## mushr00m

Any opinions on meh gut fix? 9 or 1?  xD


----------



## Sina

mushr00m said:


> Any opinions on meh gut fix? 9 or 1?  xD


why 9w1?


----------



## mushr00m

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> why 9w1?


Because it's been mentioned by a couple of well-read/respected people here that they can't really see the 1, they see the 9, that's one thing. And being adaptable to those around me(to a point) to keep a fluid, calm atmosphere. Avoidance of confrontation generally(not strictly). But really, it's been brought up by a several others about a 9 fix being more likely and I hate to say, wander the fact that im taking others perspectives in that way is kinda indicative of a 9 fix. I don't always take things seriously, sometimes I do. I am aware of my anger though and apparently 9 isn't. *shrugs* I just hate expressing it profusely and coz I don't wanna die from a heart attack by the time im 45 :laughing:


----------



## Sina

mushr00m said:


> Because it's been mentioned by a couple of well-read/respected people here that they can't really see the 1, they see the 9, that's one thing. And being adaptable to those around me(to a point) to keep a fluid, calm atmosphere. Avoidance of confrontation generally(not strictly). But really, it's been brought up by a several others about a 9 fix being more likely and I hate to say, wander the fact that im taking others perspectives in that way is kinda indicative of a 9 fix. I don't always take things seriously, sometimes I do. I am aware of my anger though and apparently 9 isn't. *shrugs* I just hate expressing it profusely and coz I don't wanna die from a heart attack by the time im 45 :laughing:


You've been far too willing to jump in and correct other people and criticize behaviour you disagreed with on principle to be a 9w1 fixer. You've tended to step up and speak up in ways that 9w1 fixed 6s do not, certainly not to the same degree and consistency. It's been over 2 years since you PM'd me a questionnaire, and it was loaded with 1ish self-criticism. I see very little of 9ish apathy in you. 

Adaptable to keep the calm is also very phobic 6 behaviour, which is your core type. As for asking for opinions, that's not the hallmark of a 9 fix..no. Naah..I don't see it.


----------



## Tranquility

I feel I am a 6w5 9w1 4w3. Any opinions on my type, or help with my instincts?


----------



## Flatlander

EthereaEthos said:


> I feel I am a 6w5 9w1 4w3. Any opinions on my type, or help with my instincts?


What made you change your mind?


----------



## Figure

mushr00m said:


> Because it's been mentioned by a couple of well-read/respected people here that they can't really see the 1, they see the 9, that's one thing. And being adaptable to those around me(to a point) to keep a fluid, calm atmosphere. Avoidance of confrontation generally(not strictly). But really, it's been brought up by a several others about a 9 fix being more likely and I hate to say, wander the fact that im taking others perspectives in that way is kinda indicative of a 9 fix. I don't always take things seriously, sometimes I do. I am aware of my anger though and apparently 9 isn't. *shrugs* I just hate expressing it profusely and coz I don't wanna die from a heart attack by the time im 45 :laughing:


Well, if you're sure of being a Self Pres dom, I think that could factor into the "visibility" of either type. Self Pres 1 is a worrier, almost more along the lines of 6 stereotypes than some real 6's. 

I'm not sure what gives people the idea that 9's give this air of adaptability. If anything, their adherence to the tried and true, routine is part of their problem. "Not caring" about something and being adaptable aren't the same idea, and if people truly understand how 9 works they'll know that a 9 saying "yes" does not at all mean they have truly adapted to that decision (some of them don't even do this, they simply don't respond at all). Real adaptation requires more awareness/input than most average 9's are likely to give a situation. What they give is actually apathy to whatever has changed, and in fact becoming more adaptable goes more in line with their integration to 3, as right action as opposed to sloth, than it does their type at an average level of health.

When you say that you're aware of your own anger, what exactly does it feel like?


----------



## Tranquility

Flatliner said:


> What made you change your mind?


I realized I don't really relate to 2w3, and that I have more of a need to be viewed as special than be loved. My group-centric focus is more of a 6's need to fit in. I relate strongly to the 469 tritype. However, I am uncertain on the 9w1, and on the so/sp instinct stacking. I am also very uncertain over the order of my tritype.


----------



## mushr00m

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> You've been far too willing to jump in and correct other people and criticize behaviour you disagreed with on principle to be a 9w1 fixer. You've tended to step up and speak up in ways that 9w1 fixed 6s do not, certainly not to the same degree and consistency. It's been over 2 years since you PM'd me a questionnaire, and it was loaded with 1ish self-criticism. I see very little of 9ish apathy in you.
> 
> Adaptable to keep the calm is also very phobic 6 behaviour, which is your core type. As for asking for opinions, that's not the hallmark of a 9 fix..no. Naah..I don't see it.


Thanks Boss. I tend to agree a lot. And im thinking it's more related to phobic 6ness, if I don't speak up, it's nearly always due to avoidance and fear. I think im leaning more phobic overall. Admittedly, typing as a 9 fixer, the concept around inner avoidance and inertia doesn't seem to fit. Thanks again. xD


----------



## mushr00m

Figure said:


> Well, if you're sure of being a Self Pres dom, I think that could factor into the "visibility" of either type. Self Pres 1 is a worrier, almost more along the lines of 6 stereotypes than some real 6's.
> 
> I'm not sure what gives people the idea that 9's give this air of adaptability. If anything, their adherence to the tried and true, routine is part of their problem. "Not caring" about something and being adaptable aren't the same idea, and if people truly understand how 9 works they'll know that a 9 saying "yes" does not at all mean they have truly adapted to that decision. Real adaptation requires more awareness/input than most average 9's are likely to give a situation. What they give is actually apathy to whatever has changed, and in fact becoming more adaptable goes more in line with their integration to 3, as right action as opposed to sloth, than it does their type at an average level of health.
> 
> When you say that you're aware of your own anger, what exactly does it feel like?


I meant adaptability as it is stated in Naranjo's 9 description or rather a not wanting to disturb, to rock the boat which lends to a certain adaptability. 

As for the anger, it feels sudden, red-hot, needing to escape but instead kept in something like a mental glass jar. I don't like expressing it but it is an inevitable feeling from things I cannot ignore. And I hate that I can't just ignore things either *shrug* Just wish I was not as bothered by things or could just let them go as some others seem to be easily able to do.

Thanks Figure and for clearing things up. :happy:


----------



## Flatlander

EthereaEthos said:


> I realized I don't really relate to 2w3, and that I have more of a need to be viewed as special than be loved. My group-centric focus is more of a 6's need to fit in. I relate strongly to the 469 tritype. However, I am uncertain on the 9w1, and on the so/sp instinct stacking. I am also very uncertain over the order of my tritype.


-- How would you feel about being viewed as special? What does this mean to you?
-- Why do you need to fit in? How does this lead you to focus on groups?
---- How does the need to fit in relate to or combine with the need to be viewed as special?


----------



## Tranquility

Flatliner said:


> -- How would you feel about being viewed as special? What does this mean to you?
> -- Why do you need to fit in? How does this lead you to focus on groups?
> ---- How does the need to fit in relate to or combine with the need to be viewed as special?


I would like being viewed as special as long as it is in a positive light. I want something important about me that makes me stand apart from others. It doesn't matter if this is earned like a degree or inherited like a title, as long as it sets me apart.

I need to fit in because I want to be accepted as a part of something. I want to stand behind others and have others stand behind me. I focus on groups because they give me the support and security I need.

I want to be a part of something, but I want to stand out in this group. It's counterintuitive, because I want to both blend in and stand out. Maybe in a non-intrusive but acknowledged way can I find this niche, as an advisor, mediator, or storyteller. It is for this reason I find careers such as the priesthood or organization trustees alluring.


----------



## Flatlander

EthereaEthos said:


> I would like being viewed as special as long as it is in a positive light.


The thing about authenticity fixture in 4s.. this seems to have little to do with it. I'd put it at a 3 or w3 somewhere if it's image related, because 'authenticity' to the 4 includes the 'bad' parts of the psyche as well - and often there is a morbid focus on those when the person is really feeling them, alongside the focus on the 'good' parts when those are what is felt.



> I want something important about me that makes me stand apart from others. It doesn't matter if this is earned like a degree or inherited like a title, as long as it sets me apart.


Indeterminate but again with the 3/w3 themes.

What benefit does having this give you?



> I need to fit in because I want to be accepted as a part of something. I want to stand behind others and have others stand behind me. I focus on groups because they give me the support and security I need.
> 
> I want to be a part of something, but I want to stand out in this group. It's counterintuitive, because I want to both blend in and stand out. Maybe in a non-intrusive but acknowledged way can I find this niche, as an advisor, mediator, or storyteller. It is for this reason I find careers such as the priesthood or organization trustees alluring.


In the war between 4 and 6, I'd decidedly grant this a 6ish lean as a first impression. Furthermore I'd give it a w5, as this matches social 5 themes as well as 6 and it seems like it would be part of how you go about achieving your goals. 

What I'm reading is that you want to be a critical part of a group. You don't just want to 'fit in', you would prefer to be influential within its structure - but why? 

For context: Have you/are you pursuing/do you pursue something along these lines already in your life? How old are you (if you don't mind), and when did you decide you had this goal? How big a priority is this for you?


----------



## Tranquility

Flatliner said:


> The thing about authenticity fixture in 4s.. this seems to have little to do with it. I'd put it at a 3 or w3 somewhere if it's image related, because 'authenticity' to the 4 includes the 'bad' parts of the psyche as well - and often there is a morbid focus on those when the person is really feeling them, alongside the focus on the 'good' parts when those are what is felt.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeterminate but again with the 3/w3 themes.
> 
> What benefit does having this give you?
> 
> 
> 
> In the war between 4 and 6, I'd decidedly grant this a 6ish lean as a first impression. Furthermore I'd give it a w5, as this matches social 5 themes as well as 6 and it seems like it would be part of how you go about achieving your goals.
> 
> What I'm reading is that you want to be a critical part of a group. You don't just want to 'fit in', you would prefer to be influential within its structure - but why?
> 
> For context: Have you/are you pursuing/do you pursue something along these lines already in your life? How old are you (if you don't mind), and when did you decide you had this goal? How big a priority is this for you?


I get no benefit from standing out other than the sense of uniqueness. I want to be special, admired, accepted for my importance.

I do want to be a critical part of the group. I feel useless and common if I cannot be influential. Realize that I do not want to lead, but be a great, albeit lesser, influence on the group.

I am pursuing these goals by playing a large part in a school organization I am a part of. I am 16, and just recently discovered the nature of my goals. I don't introspect much on my wants and emotions, unless said emotions are negative and painful. Then I masachistically dwell on my pain. The goal of influence and admiration is very high for me. It is at my core to be special and important.


----------



## Flatlander

@_EthereaEthos_ - Call it extremely preliminary, but I'm putting this out there: to me, so far, you read kind of like a 268 archetype with 2 or 6 at the core and 8 at the end. Obviously I could be wrong but I think I'm reading quite a bit of power seek in you. 

Putting wings to that thought, it'd be 2w3 6w5 8w9.

So in case I'm wrong, it's dissecty time.



EthereaEthos said:


> I get no benefit from standing out other than the sense of uniqueness. I want to be special, admired, accepted for my importance.


The image types are all variants on a theme of wanting to be loved or valued.

I'm not certain if you wanted to set up a contradiction with these two statements, but there is one. You're implying here that it isn't truly "standing out" that you want, but rather people valuing you for something deeper to you - your "importance". 

And apparently your importance comes into play with relevance to and influence in group structure..



> I do want to be a critical part of the group. I feel useless and common if I cannot be influential. Realize that I do not want to lead, but be a great, albeit lesser, influence on the group.


May I ask, then, why _don't_ you want to lead?

Because even though I'm not a social type (and you appear to at least have so in your stacking), I think I understand your standpoint intrinsically. When seeking power or influence, you can simultaneously maintain your own safety by appearing to be subordinate or in an apparently removed place but still actually critical to an organization's structure. It has its own logic, see.

How much influence do you perceive a leader having vs. yourself? Same question: how much power?

To what degree do you seek influence in your everyday life? How do you operate in your family?



> I am pursuing these goals by playing a large part in a school organization I am a part of. I am 16, and just recently discovered the nature of my goals.


That's fair. There's lots about your psyche you may not be aware of yet, so it might be helpful for you to keep an eye out over your life and see if you still agree with your view of yourself now when you are older.



> *I don't introspect much on my wants and emotions*,


4s I've noted tend to do this naturally. The goal would be to be "seen for who they are", which involves having a firmer sense of this than just the consideration of what makes them special or important to others.



> *unless said emotions are negative and painful.*


If that's the only time it comes to mind, then..



> *Then I masachistically dwell on my pain.*


Probably because you aren't used to this experience. How do you break out of this when it happens to you?

4s are considered "masochists" by Naranjo in part because they continually subject themselves to dwelling on their internal content. They hence become inured to this way of working. All people tend to become inured to their core dynamic as they go along in life, even if one's core conundrum was strongly present and felt by oneself in younger childhood. 

This is in line with Jung's concept of habituation, which is when the mind becomes used to repeated stimuli. The phenomenon is viscerally represented in neuroscience as the brain forming stronger and stronger neural pathways when you are repetitively thinking in relevant ways, these becoming the dominant structures within it and hence it taking less and less effort to 'use' your brain in these particular ways.

It is possible to make yourself aware of what is habituated, but it requires shifting your perspective to look at it in a new way so it stands out again. That is part of the point of Enneagram considerations. It's also part of why finding your core can be so difficult, but especially the older or more habitual you get, because you're going to see all the other stuff about yourself and content of your life and persona first.



> The goal of influence and admiration is very high for me. It is at my core to be special and important.


Do you always act with the goal of influence and admiration in mind? 

What do influence and admiration mean to you? Why do you seek influence, in particular?


----------



## Tranquility

Flatliner said:


> @_EthereaEthos_ - Call it extremely preliminary, but I'm putting this out there: to me, so far, you read kind of like a 268 archetype with 2 or 6 at the core and 8 at the end. Obviously I could be wrong but I think I'm reading quite a bit of power seek in you.
> 
> Putting wings to that thought, it'd be 2w3 6w5 8w9.
> 
> So in case I'm wrong, it's dissecty time.
> 
> 
> 
> The image types are all variants on a theme of wanting to be loved or valued.
> 
> I'm not certain if you wanted to set up a contradiction with these two statements, but there is one. You're implying here that it isn't truly "standing out" that you want, but rather people valuing you for something deeper to you - your "importance".
> 
> And apparently your importance comes into play with relevance to and influence in group structure..
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask, then, why _don't_ you want to lead?
> 
> Because even though I'm not a social type (and you appear to at least have so in your stacking), I think I understand your standpoint intrinsically. When seeking power or influence, you can simultaneously maintain your own safety by appearing to be subordinate or in an apparently removed place but still actually critical to an organization's structure. It has its own logic, see.
> 
> How much influence do you perceive a leader having vs. yourself? Same question: how much power?
> 
> To what degree do you seek influence in your everyday life? How do you operate in your family?
> 
> 
> 
> That's fair. There's lots about your psyche you may not be aware of yet, so it might be helpful for you to keep an eye out over your life and see if you still agree with your view of yourself now when you are older.
> 
> 
> 
> 4s I've noted tend to do this naturally. The goal would be to be "seen for who they are", which involves having a firmer sense of this than just the consideration of what makes them special or important to others.
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the only time it comes to mind, then..
> 
> 
> 
> Probably because you aren't used to this experience. How do you break out of this when it happens to you?
> 
> 4s are considered "masochists" by Naranjo in part because they continually subject themselves to dwelling on their internal content. They hence become inured to this way of working. All people tend to become inured to their core dynamic as they go along in life, even if one's core conundrum was strongly present and felt by oneself in younger childhood.
> 
> This is in line with Jung's concept of habituation, which is when the mind becomes used to repeated stimuli. The phenomenon is viscerally represented in neuroscience as the brain forming stronger and stronger neural pathways when you are repetitively thinking in relevant ways, these becoming the dominant structures within it and hence it taking less and less effort to 'use' your brain in these particular way.
> 
> It is possible to make yourself aware of what is habituated, but it requires shifting your perspective to look at it in a new way so it stands out again. That is part of the point of Enneagram considerations.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you always act with the goal of influence and admiration in mind?
> 
> What do influence and admiration mean to you? Why do you seek influence, in particular?


I don't want to lead because it puts me on the spot. I don't want to have to make difficult decisions that might hurt others or cause dissent. I want to have the ability to only interfere in situations I feel safe interfering in, and be able to back out if I am in over my head. I don't care about seeming subordinate or not. I just don't want to be forced to hurt people, unless it is absolutely necessary. Though, I do prefer the subordinate position because it constitutes a lessening of responsibility and the sense of feeling cared for and provided for by the dominant position.

The only leader quality I perceive myself having is one of prestige. I don't care about property or power, as long as people respect my opinions. The leader would hold all the power, while I hold a large part of the influence. I'd even be happy if the leader has more influence than me, as long as my opinions are heard and considered. I don't want to be completely helpless.

I act with the goal of influence and admiration in mind almost always, unless asserting myself would cause further conflict. I do react negatively and sometimes even instigate conflict, but I hate it and try to avoid it whenever I can, except in circumstances of the greater good. I'd say my biggest goal in life is to be heard. I don't want to be treated as insignificant and ignored.

Influence is significance. Influence is my ability to have things happen in the right way, the proper way, the way that creates the least dissent and hatred. Admiration is, for the most part, an incentive to have myself help the world become a better place. Admiration makes me feel nice. roud:
I seek influence because I feel powerless without it, and without power there is no positive change. I am not important. I am worthless.


----------



## Sina

@_EthereaEthos_

Behind the more typical heart-type-ish terminology (admiration, significance, worth), there are strong core 6 concerns. Influence is linked to avoidance of harm (dissent and hatred). Image types seek influence as an affirmation of their extrinsic value. Their intrinsic value is a blind spot in average levels of health.

There's also the ambivalence towards authority- seeking its protection as well as guidance and being vigilant to the possibility of being disadvantaged by it. Your approach to conflict, both hating it and instigating it is again very core 6. It's 6 reactivity with the goal of uncovering where people truly stand. Admiration as an incentive to "help the world" is a 2-ish sentiment. It may be your fix. However, the conscious emphasis on security, support and protection against dissent (a fear of direct anger, so to speak, is often seen in phobic 6s) which can lead to alienation or helplessness (at the hands of people who'd oppose you) are pointing away from core 2 and the positive outlook triad (i'll put the core 2 part in your post's context)- making oneself indispensable (whereas you talk about "lessening of responsibility"), gaining control, of which influence is a form, for 2s, especially though not exclusively Social 2s, (not protection from harm and guidance from an authority-figure) while appearing to bend, as Palmer puts it, and make themselves available in a helping or helpful capacity (why they're called the types to be the power behind the throne, and simply relinquishing influence as long as you're heard is not core 2), aligning with influential individuals as a way of bolstering their own social leverage, all of this stands to contrast what you've said of yourself.

What you say about indulging pain is not exclusive to core 4s. 4 "masochism" has already been addressed above. From the few posts on this thread, you strike me as a phobic 6w7 with a 2 fix, likely So/Sx. I'd agree with @_Flatliner_ in that the quoted section on why you want to fit into groups and the subsequent elaboration is all 6. I don't see 4 in the last post especially. The 6's line to 3 may be evident in areas you've highlighted as displaying a concern with how you're perceived, and the focus on these themes doesn't, in your case, point to a core image type for reasons outlined above. You may have a 1 fix, though it's a bit early to tell.


----------



## Tranquility

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_EthereaEthos_
> 
> Behind the more typical heart-type-ish terminology (admiration, value, worth), there are strong core 6 concerns. Influence is linked to avoidance of harm (dissent and hatred). Image types seek influence as an affirmation of their extrinsic value.
> 
> There's also the ambivalence towards authority- seeking its protection as well as guidance and being vigilant to the possibility of being disadvantaged by it. Your approach to conflict, both hating it and instigating it is again very core 6. It's 6 reactivity with the goal of uncovering where people truly stand. Admiration as an incentive to "help the world" is a 2-ish sentiment. It may be your fix. However, the conscious emphasis on security, support and protection against dissent (a fear of direct anger, so to speak, is often seen in phobic 6s) which can lead to alienation or helplessness (at the hands of people who'd oppose you) are pointing away from core 2 and the positive outlook triad (i'll put it in your post's context)- making oneself indispensable (whereas you talk about "lessening of responsibility"), gaining control, of which influence is a form, for So 2s (not protection from harm and guidance from an authority-figure) while appearing to bend and make themselves available in a helping or helpful capacity (why they're called the types to be the power behind the throne, and simply relinquishing influence as long as you're heard is not core 2), aligning with influential individuals as a way of bolstering their own social leverage.
> 
> What you say about indulging pain is not exclusive to core 4s. 4 "masochism" has already been addressed above. From the few posts on this thread, you strike me as a phobic 6w7 with a 2 fix, likely So/Sx. I'd agree with @_Flatliner_ in that the quoted section on why you want to fit into groups and the subsequent elaboration is all 6. Your last post had no speck of 4. The 6's line to 3 may be evident in areas you've highlighted as displaying a concern with how you're perceived, and the focus on these themes doesn't exactly, in your case, point to a core image type. You may have a 1 fix, though it's a bit early to tell.


So you think I'm a 6w7 2 so/sx so far? How can that be expanded upon? I'm happy to answer any questions with complete honesty.


----------



## Sina

EthereaEthos said:


> So you think I'm a 6w7 2 so/sx so far? How can that be expanded upon? I'm happy to answer any questions with complete honesty.


Your openness is appreciated. I, only, offer typing insights sporadically these days and have for a while. So, I won't be available for an extended discussion. I am sure someone else will be around to talk this out with you further. If something comes to mind, I might drop by later.

Check out my stickied thread linked below. Go through the online resources. If you have access to quality Enneagram books, knock yourself out. Make sure to read Naranjo's 6, 4 and 2 descriptions stickied in type specific sub-fora.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/144610-enneagram-reading-list.html


----------



## Sina

Firstly, I have a lot on my plate IRL. So, I haven't been keeping up much here. Secondly, I am not as interested in JCF/MBTI, so these discussions don't particularly catch my attention or perk my ears. I am all for people sharing their ideas. I have heard all sorts of shit under the sun, imaginable. Let's see what's brought on the table here. 

I will also point out my severe dislike of thread derails, at times ..on other people's threads. This is an Enneagram thread, and my expert attention whoring personality has already taken up a lot of it which is just fine btw, and if I kept the song and dance going, I'd engulf the next few pages in multiples of 10 easily, another reason why I moved @_Swordsman of Mana_'s 8 discussion to my Spam thread. I'd rather the newbies and others get a bit more attention; some could really use a few tips and insights. So, if there's a similar thread for MBTI types, I'd be fine with people moving the discussion there if they wish. 

I won't be participating too much anyway. Feel free to use my case as a point of discussion amongst yourselves, if you want. I will drop by and read stuff though, commenting sporadically.

Now,
@_Figure_, @_Arya_, @_mimesis_, @_Gentleman Bastard_, @_Animal_ (since your post led to the ENTP suggestion by Figure-- which I find fuckin adorable --I mean I am flattered as hell that I get to be a quirky ol' Ne dom geniusface in someone's argument <3-- over my current staid ass *ESTJ [not ENTJ and I have no attachment to either *shrugs*]*typing..please...make my day: 3...and I am kinda curious...so it better be good and anyone else interested:-

I am going to link you to two questionnaires. The first is an MBTI questionnaire I filled 3 years ago, and since my self-reporting has always been more or less consistent, I wasn't surprised to find, as I re-read it just now, that I relate to much of what I said..pretty much all of it. The failure part was highlighted because of my life circumstances at the time. Anyhow, it's lulzy to cherry pick one post among nearly 6000 to make a case for a typing, though I am all for it. 

But if you are really going to get into this, you are going to have to put in more fuckin effort than that. So, I am linking your ass to two questionnaires. Both are still applicable and relevant, contain important information. I like that the MBTI questionnaire was written at a time when was still quite new to this typingbiz, which makes the questionnaire even more unbiased. 


1. http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-all-eyes-me-jcf-mbti-type-questionnaire.html

2. http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-socionics-type/122466-bosss-socionics-typing-thread-mwahaha.html
@_Flatliner_ might be interested, if he is around. 

Mmkay? Have fun, bitches. <3


----------



## HighClassSavage

Figure said:


> Can I first ask - are people, this goes for everyone, actually offended that I proposed it (which is how I'm taking all of these comments), or are you genuinely just telling me to hurry up with an explanation? If it's the latter, I have said, multiple times, I'm going to quote Boss and Jung side by side, and it will take awhile to draft.


Nah, I just wanted to be an asshole. *shrugs*


----------



## Sina

Gentleman Bastard said:


> Nah, I just wanted to be an asshole. *shrugs*


In which case...you failed miserably. :crazy:


----------



## HellCat

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Firstly, I have a lot on my plate IRL. So, I haven't been keeping up much here. Secondly, I am not as interested in JCF/MBTI, so these discussions don't particularly catch my attention or perk my ears. I am all for people sharing their ideas. I have heard all sorts of shit under the sun, imaginable. Let's see what's brought on the table here.
> 
> I will also point out my severe dislike of thread derails, at times ..on other people's threads. This is an Enneagram thread, and my expert attention whoring personality has already taken up a lot of it which is just fine btw, and if I kept the song and dance going, I'd engulf the next few pages in multiples of 10 easily, another reason why I moved @_Swordsman of Mana_'s 8 discussion to my Spam thread. I'd rather the newbies and others get a bit more attention; some could really use a few tips and insights. So, if there's a similar thread for MBTI types, I'd be fine with people moving the discussion there if they wish.
> 
> I won't be participating too much anyway. Feel free to use my case as a point of discussion amongst yourselves, if you want. I will drop by and read stuff though, commenting sporadically.
> 
> Now,
> @_Figure_, @_Arya_, @_mimesis_, @_Gentleman Bastard_, @_Animal_ (since your post led to the ENTP suggestion by Figure-- which I find fuckin adorable --I mean I am flattered as hell that I get to be a quirky ol' Ne dom geniusface in someone's argument <3-- over my current staid ass *ESTJ [not ENTJ and I have no attachment to either *shrugs*]*typing..please...make my day: 3...and I am kinda curious...so it better be good and anyone else interested:-
> 
> I am going to link you to two questionnaires. The first is an MBTI questionnaire I filled 3 years ago, and since my self-reporting has always been more or less consistent, I wasn't surprised to find, as I re-read it just now, that I relate to much of what I said..pretty much all of it. The failure part was highlighted because of my life circumstances at the time. Anyhow, it's lulzy to cherry pick one post among nearly 6000 to make a case for a typing, though I am all for it.
> 
> But if you are really going to get into this, you are going to have to put in more fuckin effort than that. So, I am linking your ass to two questionnaires. Both are still applicable and relevant, contain important information. I like that the MBTI questionnaire was written at a time when was still quite new to this typingbiz, which makes the questionnaire even more unbiased.
> 
> 
> 1. http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-all-eyes-me-jcf-mbti-type-questionnaire.html
> 
> 2. http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-socionics-type/122466-bosss-socionics-typing-thread-mwahaha.html
> @_Flatliner_ might be interested, if he is around.
> 
> Mmkay? Have fun, bitches. <3



Those give no more insight into your cognitive process than if I held a palm reading. I would be more accurate. 

How you process the world is an internal thing. People have got to understand they will not be able to hack someone as shrewd as you. They will only see what you let them. 

One never sees anything objectively if they don't let go of the right to fuck up or look stupid, personal judgements and biases when trying to learn.


----------



## Sina

LeoCat said:


> Those give no more insight into your cognitive process than if I held a palm reading. I would be more accurate.


This is bullshit. Of course, no questionnaire would give anyone a peek into the totality of another individual, but palm reading is a laughably far-fetched analogy. Those responses came from honest contemplation, particularly at a time I knew very little about JCF. 



> How you process the world is an internal thing. People have got to understand they will not be able to hack someone as shrewd as you. They will only see what you let them.


I appreciate the compliment. <3 They'll have a better chance of seeing jCF patterns ('hacking' me lol <3 ) from those honest responses about my inner processes, motivations and more than one random post picked off a thread, with strictly comparison based typing as the M.O. I am genuinely curious about the argument, though. It's still insufficient evidence by itself, one way or another, and even keeping in mind the value of observing when someone isn't "looking". 



> One never sees anything objectively if they don't let go of the right to fuck up or look stupid, personal judgements and biases when trying to learn.


Oh, I see things objectively. There's no 100% objectivity with self-reflection, thanks to blindspots. That said, I am a pretty self-aware and grounded person with a shit ton of life experience and self-work behind me. The abundance of morons who trip all over themselves in their self-reporting (not for valid reasons, mind you, and we've had this discussion before), in public or private, is not my fuckin problem. :3 Mine has evolved; and yet, something written nearly half a decade ago still happens to apply. Yay me..won't have to do another questionnaire. 


Whatever the fuck does being 'stupid' or 'making mistakes' have to do with any of this? Unless you're "Reacting" to the part where I said a 3 year old questionnaire was still relevant and applicable because I understand and know myself well. If you're thinking I've been deliberately 'editing' shit, owing to my shrewdness , so as not to make 'mistakes' in my self-reporting, that is a pretty amusingly unfounded assumption jump. Looks a bit like projection, to me, in fact, besides being untrue. :3


----------



## mimesis

Figure said:


> Can I first ask - are people, this goes for everyone, actually offended that I proposed it (which is how I'm taking all of these comments), or are you genuinely just telling me to hurry up with an explanation? If it's the latter, I have said, multiple times, I'm going to quote Boss and Jung side by side, and it will take awhile to draft.
> 
> Here's the quote from Jung on Ti/Te I read that started it:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, I noticed that our thinking styles when reading the same piece of text are opposite orientations. We debated O'Hanrahan's enneagram website from opposite rational perspectives a few weeks ago. She cited pieces of it as objective proof for what is in my opinion a subjective evaluation, I simply regurgitated what was explicitly on the site as it should speak for itself. That's the brief short of it, but again, I want actual text to support my observation and don't have time to do it right now.


To argue against that, you have a habit to refer to the wrong interpretation of people (like today), even people who are considered authorities, to assert your own view as true/ correct afterwards. Te would more likely think in terms of probability, like @Scelerats method of mapping mbti with enneatype. It was interesting to see who opposed that method, and how.

Ti tends to view itself as true and objective, (I guess confusing this with impersonal) where it's actually subjective in truth judgement (inner consistency), in a similar way that Fi can regard his judgment as "universal" (and what Ti on this board often likes to view as 'subjective' as opposed to 'objective' Ti). Of course not all Ti do this, because some are aware of its subjectivity, just like not all Fi are as self-righteous.


----------



## HellCat

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> This is bullshit. Of course, no questionnaire would give anyone a peek into the totality of another individual, but palm reading is a laughably far-fetched analogy. Those responses came from honest contemplation, particularly at a time I knew very little about JCF.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the compliment. <3 They'll have a better chance of seeing jCF patterns ('hacking' me lol <3 ) from those honest responses about my inner processes, motivations and more than one random post picked off a thread, with strictly comparison based typing as the M.O. I am genuinely curious about the argument, though. It's still insufficient evidence by itself, one way or another, and even keeping in mind the value of observing when someone isn't "looking".
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see things objectively. There's no 100% objectivity with self-reflection, thanks to blindspots. That said, I am a pretty fuckin self-aware and grounded person with a shit ton of life experience and self-work behind me. The abundance of morons who trip all over themselves in their self-reporting (not for valid reasons, mind you, and we've had this discussion before), in public or private, is not my fuckin problem. :3 Mine has evolved; and yet, something written nearly half a decade ago still happens to apply. Yay me..won't have to do another questionnaire.
> 
> 
> Whatever the fuck does being 'stupid' or 'making mistakes' have to do with any of this? Unless you're "Reacting" to the part where I said a 3 year old questionnaire was still relevant and applicable because I understand and know myself well. If you're thinking I've been deliberately 'editing' shit, owing to my shrewdness , so as not to make 'mistakes' in my self-reporting, that is a pretty amusingly unfounded assumption jump. Looks a bit like projection, to me, in fact, besides being untrue. :3


People trying to type. not "you" Self reflection is the only way to ascertain what you are I think. 

I am saying the people who type will hang onto bias. Then skew the facts to support them. Are the ones who fear making mistakes. 

Nah I don't give a fuck about self reporting. Don't turn your claws on me without asking wtf I meant.


----------



## mushr00m

Figure said:


> Basically, I noticed that our thinking styles when reading the same piece of text are opposite orientations. We debated O'Hanrahan's enneagram website from opposite rational perspectives a few weeks ago. She cited pieces of it as objective proof for what is in my opinion a subjective evaluation, I simply regurgitated what was explicitly on the site as it should speak for itself. That's the brief short of it, but again, I want actual text to support my observation and don't have time to do it right now.


It may be a dominant perciever/judger difference. It's also quite possible that @Cosmic Orgasm is aux Si?? Which would explain the difference in perception between you both but that's just another possible option. And apart from that, what she is stating as objective proofs and what you see as subjective opinion im not sure is necessarily MBTI related per say, I mean it may be or may not be, in that how much of our specific conclusions from our decision making is always filtered through our cog functions, it's still more complex than that or another way of putting that is that I may not come to the same conclusions as fellow INFP types, in fact we frequently differ in conclusions, we sometimes reach the same so it shows that there is more shades of grey than what meets the eye. Jus playing devils advocate a little here.


----------



## Sina

LeoCat said:


> People trying to type. not "you" Self reflection is the only way to ascertain what you are I think.


It is. Although, it can be useful if someone who knows what they're talking about offers a differing perspective. I see that being crucial to your own typing journey. Do you say otherwise? 



> I am saying the people who type will hang onto bias. Then skew the facts to support them. Are the ones who fear making mistakes.


Here:- 


> One never sees anything objectively if they don't let go of the right to fuck up or look stupid, personal judgements and biases when *trying to learn*.


Had you said when trying to "type" others, that would've made it obvious you were referring to people offering typing suggestions.

Hell, a typee could be trying to learn. You also referenced "showing only what I wanted to show". I quote you. Are you saying that has nothing to do with self-reporting?  Showing what I want to show has to do with what I say about myself, obviously.

Had you said that people see what they want to see, your point would've been very different. See what I mean? 


> Nah I don't give a fuck about self reporting.


Read above. It sure reads like that's what you were addressing, since you made no mention of typer bias, only referring to what a typee is saying about themselves. That and the shrewdness point, which I clearly take as a compliment, should tell you why your post was interpreted how it was. 



> Don't turn your claws on me without asking wtf I meant.


Okay, two things:-

- no claws were unsheathed 
- you left no room for imagination, and i saw no need to ask clarification (again read above)

I am not sure where you read antagonism there. But, that should clear it up.  No ill will intended. You know it. <3 We're on the same page now.


----------



## Scelerat

mimesis said:


> To argue against that, you have a habit to refer to the wrong interpretation of people (like today), even people who are considered authorities, to assert your own view as true/ correct afterwards. Te would more likely think in terms of probability, like @_Scelerat_s method of mapping mbti with enneatype. It was interesting to see who opposed that method, and how.
> 
> Ti tends to view itself as true and objective, (I guess confusing this with impersonal) where it's actually subjective in truth judgement (inner consistency), in a similar way that Fi can regard his judgment as "universal" (and what Ti on this board often likes to view as 'subjective' as opposed to 'objective' Ti). Of course not all Ti do this, because some are aware of its subjectivity, just like not all Fi are as self-righteous.


A probabilistic method works for me because it "fits" with the rest of the process I use. The way I type is to run scenarios in my head of "how would this post be if....". My entire mind is geared towards probability, that's why I generally refuse to type people and do not participate in discussions like this. 

_Notes
_
I think one of the better ways to differentiate between Ti and Te is something I read the other day about, Ti is about logical validity, Te is about soundness. 

Te and Ti both use facts, but differently:

Ti : Theory - Facts - Theory.
Te: Facts - Theory - Facts.


----------



## Animal

@Cosmic Orgasm

I'm not good at typing threads but to me you are a clear Te dom. I can't see you as anything but a Te dom. Whether it's ESTJ or ENTJ, I am not sure. I'll look carefully at the threads very soon. I know you long enough that it might not change things, but more info might be enlightening so its worth a shot. But.. that would probably just give me text to SHOW what my thoughts are re: Ni/Se vs. Ne/Si. 


I think you interpret sensations AND you sort through memories in a way that I usually see in Ne/Si users.

But your intuition is strong, so picturing it as a tertiary function throws me off a bit. Then again, I have had an even harder time with you, with sensation being tertiary. Since I am not very adept at typing people with MBTI/JCF, I'm more inclined to listen to your own assessment with those funcitons, but my strong opinion is, absolute Te dom, and with a gun to my head I might say ESTJ, because your detail-memory is a smooth and powerful focus, your interpretation of your past and memories reminds me of a much more elaborate version of my own, and you use intuition to collect a lot of objective facts. But, I could also see a case for Se collection of objective facts, and Ni interpretation…. I can probably see a case for ENTJ just as easily… to me its 51/49 on that, but Te is 100% !!


----------



## Sina

plot twist... maybe i am a type 2. :blushed:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Cosmic Orgasm
you have responded neither to my post about E8 nor my request for a judgement (which you promised a loooong time ago).
hop to it :dry:



> plot twist... maybe i am a type 2.


you're about as 2 as I am 8w9 :laughing:



> I mean I am flattered as hell that I get to be a quirky ol' Ne dom geniusface in someone's argument <3-- over my current staid ass ESTJ [not ENTJ and I have no attachment to either *shrugs*]typing..please...make my day: 3...and I am kinda curious...so it better be good and anyone else interested:-


INTJ


----------



## Grau the Great

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I mean I am flattered as hell that I get to be a quirky ol' Ne dom geniusface in someone's argument <3-- over my current staid ass *ESTJ [not ENTJ and I have no attachment to either *shrugs*]*typing..please...make my day: 3...and I am kinda curious...so it better be good and anyone else interested:-



INFP.


DEAL WITH IT.


----------



## mimesis

@Scelerat

I like that comparison.

In this case I was questioning one of the underlying premisses (assumption of being Te himself) not so much the validity of the argument (that Ti/Te can -but not necessarily- conflict in a typical fashion), and that this may indicate opposite thinking attitude. 

I usually try to steer clear from typing as well, but apparently, if I question the premisse, that's equal to questioning someone's type. But if you can't handle that, then don't use the argument (or check your assumptions). Or rather, don't judge others to begin with if you don't like to be judged yourself.


----------



## Flatlander

Animal said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> 
> I'm not good at typing threads but to me you are a clear Te dom. I can't see you as anything but a Te dom. Whether it's ESTJ or ENTJ, I am not sure. I'll look carefully at the threads very soon. I know you long enough that it might not change things, but more info might be enlightening so its worth a shot. But.. that would probably just give me text to SHOW what my thoughts are re: Ni/Se vs. Ne/Si.
> 
> 
> I think you interpret sensations AND you sort through memories in a way that I usually see in Ne/Si users.
> 
> But your intuition is strong, so picturing it as a tertiary function throws me off a bit. Then again, I have had an even harder time with you, with sensation being tertiary. Since I am not very adept at typing people with MBTI/JCF, I'm more inclined to listen to your own assessment with those funcitons, but my strong opinion is, absolute Te dom, and with a gun to my head I might say ESTJ, because your detail-memory is a smooth and powerful focus, your interpretation of your past and memories reminds me of a much more elaborate version of my own, and you use intuition to collect a lot of objective facts. But, I could also see a case for Se collection of objective facts, and Ni interpretation…. I can probably see a case for ENTJ just as easily… to me its 51/49 on that, but Te is 100% !!


It's S - S for Seductive, and Si for Si-ntillating.


----------



## Animal

@_Cosmic Orgasm_

Just glancing through those threads, it reminded me of something. You list so many qualities one after another. It's never one short, concise "underlying" point but rather, many broad underlying points. This is Ne. I vote more strongly ESTJ


----------



## Figure

The gallivanting will go to the proper threads here on out 

@_mimesis_ if you really question my self typing you ought to just come out and say it.


----------



## Arya

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> you have responded neither to my post about E8 nor my request for a judgement (which you promised a loooong time ago).
> hop to it :dry:
> 
> 
> you're about as 2 as I am 8w9 :laughing:
> 
> 
> INTJ


you never responded to me  convinced of my SP lastness yet? or am I missing something?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Arya said:


> you never responded to me  convinced of my SP lastness yet? or am I missing something?


I thought I already responded (guess not). I'll try and think of a more coherent response, but at the moment, mostly intuition lol


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_, oh i know about sp/sx. didn't think you thought otherwise. lol. again, how would you distinguish what you said about me from cp 6 bullshit intolerance?


I wasn't aware cp6 was even on the table,

anyway, mostly it has to do with
- you seldom overreact
- you're slower to pick up on it than a 6 (who usually picks up on things long before they become a threat in the first place)
- you lack the suspicion of a 6
- 6s see all kinds of threats that aren't even there. you never do this
- your energy is gut center, not head center (well, certainly not as head center as 6)

@OP
I've been talking to an Enneagram practitioner who believes I am a Sexual 4 or an 8 and says that I am way to blunt and sturdy to be Sexual 7. wasn't seriously questioning my type recent, but now I'm


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I wasn't aware cp6 was even on the table,
> 
> anyway, mostly it has to do with
> - you seldom overreact
> - you're slower to pick up on it than a 6 (who usually picks up on things long before they become a threat in the first place)
> - you lack the suspicion of a 6
> - 6s see all kinds of threats that aren't even there. you never do this. - *Unhealthy 6s do this. *
> - your energy is gut center, not head center (well, certainly not as head center as 6)
> 
> @OP
> I've been talking to an Enneagram practitioner who believes I am a Sexual 4 or an 8 and says that I am way to blunt and sturdy to be Sexual 7. wasn't seriously questioning my type recent, but now I'm


LOL no it wasn't on the table. I was asking more for comparative purposes regarding bullshit intolerance within reactive tyes XD, hopefully as something to refine my own understanding. 

Umm...core 8 for you is like lulzy as all hell. 4 doesn't work either. Also, lolz @ 'blunt and sturdy'. You have rare bursts of 'bluntness', at best. Sturdy is something you have always aspired to in your idealization of 8s, and at one point, 1w9s. Naah not buying that shit for a second.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> LOL no it wasn't on the table. I was asking more for comparative purposes regarding bullshit intolerance within reactive types. XD


ok (still think 8w7 for you btw)



> Umm...core 8 for you is like lulzy. 4 doesn't work either. Also, lolz @ 'blunt and sturdy'. You have rare bursts of 'bluntness', at best.


needless to say, I don't think I'm an 8 (he probably won't either once he gets to know me better), but once I read more into the subtypes (I'm planning on buying Beatrice Chestnut's book), I might settle on something a little more intense and fiery than Sexual 7 (they come off flimsy to me, esp Sexual 7w6). I disagree about the bluntness though. you just don't see it (partially because you are the personification of bluntness, so what most people would consider blunt, you consider normal)


----------



## Arya

Swordsman of Mana said:


> ok (still think 8w7 for you btw)
> 
> 
> needless to say, I don't think I'm an 8 (he probably won't either once he gets to know me better), but once I read more into the subtypes (I'm planning on buying Beatrice Chestnut's book), I might settle on something a little more intense and fiery than Sexual 7 (they come off flimsy to me, esp Sexual 7w6). I disagree about the bluntness though. you just don't see it (partially because you are the personification of bluntness, so what most people would consider blunt, you consider normal)


You're not so much blunt as somewhat counter culture, so you offend other people's group think.


----------



## CaptSwan

Animal said:


> @_CaptSwan_
> 
> I'll read your responses to @_Cosmic Orgasm_'s questions and comment if anything comes to mind.
> 
> Right now I see you as either a 6 or a 3.


Thank you! I'll really appreciate the input!


----------



## CaptSwan

LeoCat said:


> @_CaptSwan_ We spend at least three hours a day together, and have since September.
> 
> I think you are a six with a very strong three fix *family anxiety, your manners, your projections to the worst case scenario, your meltdowns are very head typeish, fears about my sister,
> 
> A precious friend and I still don't know your gut type. I think you lack the anger to be an eight though. My guess would be 9w1 based on conversations we have had, your gentle peace making heart and how you call yourself a Knight.
> 
> I am more than happy to spend hours exploring with you about it on skype. Thank you so much for what you wrote last night. For actually seeing my cognition and for being there during my meltdowns even though you were terrified I would rip your head off and eat you.


On the contrary, I thank you for the confidence in letting me see that side of yours and for letting me talk to your sister. And, I didn't fear you'd eat me... I'm way too spicy to be a "good for your stomach" dish; Latin food and all... :laughing:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Arya said:


> You're not so much blunt as somewhat counter culture, so you offend other people's group think.


it's both. if I weren't blunt, it wouldn't offend them (though my bluntness is a little more deliberately placed than, say, @Cosmic Orgasm)
that's a good point though :tongue:

Edit: talked more to that Enneagram practitioner. he now thinks either 7 Sx/Sp with strong Sp, 7 Sp/Sx with strong Sx or some sort of 2 (after a skype call, he agreed I wasn't an 8)


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> it's both. if I weren't blunt, it wouldn't offend them (though my bluntness is a little more *deliberately placed* than, say, @_Cosmic Orgasm_)
> that's a good point though :tongue


bolded AKA rare 

she's right you say pseudo controversial shit. that's not straight talking bluntness. that's folks like @Chipps




> Edit: talked more to that Enneagram practitioner. he now thinks either 7 Sx/Sp with strong Sp, 7 Sp/Sx with strong Sx or some sort of 2 (after a skype call, he agreed I wasn't an 8)


so cuote <3


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

> bolded AKA rare


it's not rare, just not compulsive



> she's right you say pseudo controversial shit. that's not straight talking bluntness.


it's not "pseudo controversial" if I'm sharing my real opinions and people are legitimately getting offended. "pseudo" would imply inauthenticity/putting up a front of some sort.



> so cuote <3


I can't decide if you're being patronizing or just sound obnoxious when you're trying to be nice :dry: (neither would make sense, because there wasn't really a lot to say here)


----------



## Sixty Nein

If you don't meet half of the 8ness that I have, which is by far the most that there will ever be. Then there is no point in ever considering the holy grail of the 8. 7 is like the consolation prize of 8ness, but at least you aren't a 6. Which is like bronze in the enneagram holy cup, and bronze is no good.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Cosmic Orgasm
further reasons why you are reactive/8w7
1) your posts _reek_ of provocation. granted, I think it's unconscious provocation (if anything, you're probably trying to tone it down most of the time), but your posts constantly prod people to see what they are made of. you're looking to sort out who will duck with their tail between their legs, who will overreact and who will stand up to you **personally, I've found the most effective response is a frank expression of disdain without betraying enough emotion for you feed off of
2) you think virtually everyone is a pussy (and this is coming from someone who thinks about 70% of people are pussies lol)
3) you are possibly the most genuinely aggressive person I've ever met (which is kind of ironic, because you're also relatively friendly and well intentioned). as with the provocativeness, it's not intentional, it's just there, regardless of your attempts to temper it. hell, _your very presence scares the piss out of the more insecure members on this site_.
4) you can smell weakness like a bloodhound. sometimes, talking you gives me the same feeling I got during fencing lessons where my master would pinpoint the several openings in my fighting stance. 

**on an off topic note, I have to admit that some of your posts frustrate the hell out of me. it's not even so much what you say (the content is always insightful and usually useful), more the fact that _I can't do anything about it._ the sad truth is, you are better with words than me, more educated than me and _far_ more intelligent than me, so I frequently fight the urge to humor you and push back, opting instead to internally grit my teeth and let you pass because I know I am *out-fucking-matched*


----------



## Sina

swordsman of mana said:


> @_cosmic orgasm_
> further reasons why you are reactive/8w7
> 1) your posts _reek_ of provocation. Granted, i think it's unconscious provocation (if anything, you're probably trying to tone it down most of the time), but your posts constantly prod people to see what they are made of. You're looking to sort out who will duck with their tail between their legs, who will overreact and who will stand up to you **personally, i've found the most effective response is a frank expression of disdain without betraying enough emotion for you feed off of
> 2) you think virtually everyone is a pussy (and this is coming from someone who thinks about 70% of people are pussies lol)
> 3) you are possibly the most genuinely aggressive person i've ever met (which is kind of ironic, because you're also relatively friendly and well intentioned). As with the provocativeness, it's not intentional, it's just there, regardless of your attempts to temper it. Hell, _your very presence scares the piss out of the more insecure members on this site_.
> 4) you can smell weakness like a bloodhound. Sometimes, talking you gives me the same feeling i got during fencing lessons where my master would pinpoint the several openings in my fighting stance.
> 
> **on an off topic note, i have to admit that some of your posts frustrate the hell out of me. It's not even so much what you say (the content is always insightful and usually useful), more the fact that _i can't do anything about it._ the sad truth is, you are better with words than me, more educated than me and _far_ more intelligent than me, so i frequently fight the urge to humor you and push back, opting instead to internally grit my teeth and let you pass because i know i am *out-fucking-matched*


lol

:laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> lol
> 
> :laughing:


Ehehe, I do find it amusing how intimidated some people are by you. Granted, I'm not one to talk because I find people in _general _kinda intimidating. =P


----------



## Sixty Nein

Are these really the things that actually make up the core elements of the type 8 though instead of just the mindset of it all? I don't think being a badass is really equal to 8. The etiological originator of my username is an 8 and he is not threatening in the slightest (unless he would press a weapon up against me, then that I'm sort of fucked)


----------



## DomNapoleon

@Cosmic Orgasm

I see the following reactive traits in yourself: 

-Like @Swordsman of Mana said you strive for provocation. You seem to enjoy conflict, pushing boundaries, test where others really stand up, test others, push limits, etc. 
-When you are challenged you immediate act with a quick reaction, and it seems to me that you want to make the other part feeling the same that you are feeling - in other words, you seem to want to make others feeling the negative emotions that you are experimenting atm (anger, frustration, fury)
-You can't stand people who are pussy, detached (in conflict) and emotionally numb.
-You push boundaries like no one else in order to test where others really stand up. You are straight forward in conflict, and you seem to never run away again from it - instead, you seem to indulge with the intensity of conflict. 
-You may have a terrible temper when defied


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 3) you are possibly the most genuinely aggressive person I've ever met (which is kind of ironic, because you're also relatively friendly and well intentioned). as with the provocativeness, it's not intentional, it's just there, regardless of your attempts to temper it. hell, _your very presence scares the piss out of the more insecure members on this site_.
> 4) you can smell weakness like a bloodhound. sometimes, talking you gives me the same feeling I got during fencing lessons where my master would pinpoint the several openings in my fighting stance.


Hahahaha. Love it


----------



## HellCat

@Cosmic Orgasm I see the integration to 2 when you are babying me <3 you 

Whether its core or not I don't know, but you are so sweet, nurturing and healthy.


----------



## Sina

reality hazer said:


> are these really the things that actually make up the core elements of the type 8 though instead of just the mindset of it all? I don't think being a badass is really equal to 8. The *etiological originator of my username is an 8* and he is not threatening in the slightest (unless he would press a weapon up against me, then that i'm sort of fucked)


*Ate*











____________________________________________________________________


Thanks @Swordsman of Mana, @Animal, @Phoenix_Rebirth and anyone else who commented on reactivity. I'll respond to you individually soon. I was thinking of moving it all to Spam, but let's just play here for now. I will respond to some older posts in Spam, still. I'll notify you guys when I do. Thanks a ton for your time. I appreciate it.


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> Thanks @_Swordsman of Mana_, @_Animal_, @_Phoenix_Rebirth_ and anyone else who commented on reactivity. I'll respond to you individually soon. I was thinking of moving it all to Spam, but let's just play here for now. I will respond to some older posts in Spam, still. I'll notify you guys when I do. Thanks a ton for your time. I appreciate it.


I have been wanting to do this for a while. I'm curious to see your responses, as that will give me something more concrete to work with. I know you long enough that trying to pull all my memories together into a post is difficult, but your responses on this topic will give me something to start with and perhaps trigger specific memories, thoughts, experiences - which might give me a place to start from in a more organized way. So re: thanking us for time (or me anyway, I'll speak for myself) .. the time has only begun ;D I am excited to see your responses and see where we can go with this discussion from there!!


----------



## Nobleheart

Whatever.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Pinkieshyrose said:


> Kinda wondering if what I thought was a 2 could be a 4... I did think so at the beginning and then later thought 2 but I am going back to thinking 7w6 9w1 4 so/sx something instead of 2...


Well, I guess you do seem kinda 4-fixy from what I've seen. What made you consider 2?


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Nonsense said:


> Well, I guess you do seem kinda 4-fixy from what I've seen. What made you consider 2?


Im trying to remember.:happy:

1. I think it was mostly the idea of me having a postive tritype its true at round the time I was self typing myself I was even more positive then normal and I must have fed of that idea. But thinking about it now I don't think my core is positive though I do relate very well to a character who's core is very positive.

2. 2s have there generous and warmheartedness and at times I do do acts like that and have people comment on how nice I was... e.c.t though I never really understood why... that was so nice. I have a few 2 traits I guess... I also like fixing problems when it comes to friendship e.c.t people seem to either label me annoying or nice in the span of getting to know me and I really at least with friends like to helpful.

3. I could relate to the fear of 2 to a point but I was not sure about the desire because of the concept.
but a so/sx 2 description I could see myself fitting to a point. 

4. I have a friend who I have always seen as 947 and though we are similar on a few things 
there is a lot of differences and I at times are way more similar to my other friends to her but 49 and 7 seem so obvious in her typing. Though even then its very interesting how if I am out of my usual happy mood how easy it is to imitate her moods and that we can both end up sleep deprived and hyper at the same time.

5.The only thing I can't really relate to in 4 is probably the things about 4 looking for a rescuer while 2 trying to rescue other people but I couldn't relate to 2s becoming a martyr I have never liked the idea of doing that
and even in story's sometimes dislike characters who end up trying to do that. Though I am noticing that some part of me likes the idea of a rescuer.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Pinkieshyrose said:


> 5.The only thing I can't really relate to in 4 is probably the things about 4 looking for a rescuer while 2 trying to rescue other people but I couldn't relate to 2s becoming a martyr I have never liked the idea of doing that
> and even in story's sometimes dislike characters who end up trying to do that. Though I am noticing that some part of me likes the idea of a rescuer.


Well, I'm not sure if every 4 is necessarily looking for someone to rescue them, and if it's just your fix you probably aren't going to relate to it completely anyway. And I guess it depends on how you'd want to be rescued too.


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Nonsense said:


> Well, I'm not sure if every 4 is necessarily looking for someone to rescue them, and if it's just your fix you probably aren't going to relate to it completely anyway. And I guess it depends on how you'd want to be rescued too.


True.:happy:
Though if so I wonder if it would be 4w5 or 4w3?


----------



## Flatlander

Pinkieshyrose said:


> Im trying to remember.:happy:
> 
> 1. I think it was mostly the idea of me having a postive tritype its true at round the time I was self typing myself I was even more positive then normal and I must have fed of that idea. But thinking about it now I don't think my core is positive though I do relate very well to a character who's core is very positive.


A "positivity" type in Enneagram (2, 7 or 9) doesn't necessarily equate to a "positive" core. Specifically, 2 7 and 9 do not have to be optimists. So I suppose it depends what you mean by this - is there anything more to what you were talking about besides optimism? If so, what; if not, what does your optimism mean to you, why is it there?



> 2. 2s have there generous and warmheartedness and at times I do do acts like that and have people comment on how nice I was... e.c.t though I never really understood why... that was so nice. I have a few 2 traits I guess... I also like fixing problems when it comes to friendship e.c.t people seem to either label me annoying or nice in the span of getting to know me and I really at least with friends like to helpful.


How do you feel about your helpful nature?

How would/do you feel when your help is rejected? How would/do you act?



> 3. I could relate to the fear of 2 to a point but I was not sure about the desire because of the concept.
> but a so/sx 2 description I could see myself fitting to a point.


Can you paste the description you related to, bold the parts you do etc.?

What concept of the desire of 2 do you not relate to and why?



> 4. I have a friend who I have always seen as 947 and though we are similar on a few things
> there is a lot of differences and I at times are way more similar to my other friends to her but 49 and 7 seem so obvious in her typing. Though even then its very interesting how if I am out of my usual happy mood how easy it is to imitate her moods and that we can both end up sleep deprived and hyper at the same time.


Do you consciously imitate her moods or does it just happen?

If you do actually imitate them in your own right, why?



> 5.The only thing I can't really relate to in 4 is probably the things about 4 looking for a rescuer while 2 trying to rescue other people but I couldn't relate to 2s becoming a martyr I have never liked the idea of doing that and even in story's sometimes dislike characters who end up trying to do that. Though I am noticing that some part of me likes the idea of a rescuer.


Why would you like a rescuer? What need does this fulfill in you?


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Flatliner said:


> A "positivity" type in Enneagram (2, 7 or 9) doesn't necessarily equate to a "positive" core. Specifically, 2 7 and 9 do not have to be optimists. So I suppose it depends what you mean by this - is there anything more to what you were talking about besides optimism? If so, what; if not, what does your optimism mean to you, why is it there?
> 
> Oh, thats not what I mean't its the "triple positive" that I was referring to I don't actually see myself as optimistic but after seeing the reactions of others and how quickly some of them can think negatively I started to believe that I might actually be. But still wasn't very certain. As for what optimism means to me... I am not sure anymore its changed over the year now probably having the ability to see the light side of a situation and keeping fixed more on that instead of the darker side? But yes the term could mean many things I don't really have a fixed definition.
> 
> 
> How do you feel about your helpful nature?
> I am o.k with it I think that its helps others e.c.t but I don't really like when others list my personality trait as "nice" it may be true but it means many things to many people.
> 
> How would/do you feel when your help is rejected? How would/do you act?
> I wouldn't really mind unless its when the other is obviously lieing and wants the help when that happened once I asked another person if they agreed with the obvious cover up and she said yes and we successfully helped her later on. But yes I don't really mind...
> 
> 
> Can you paste the description you related to, bold the parts you do etc.
> 
> I remember looking at a few so ill post alot of things im sorry.
> 
> Red is what I relate to.
> Blue is what I an kinda relate to.
> 
> 2 descriptions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> general description
> 
> Average 2/3 is more outward than 2/1. The ambitious vanity of three combines with two's desire to be loved, and the result is someone who is not afraid to step into the spotlight. 2/3s usually have a seductive, playful side, unlike the more serious 2/1s. The three-wing gives them a showy, mainstream kind of appearance-consciousness. The twoish desire to please others is stronger than the threeish desire to be admired, although both desires are present.
> 
> 
> balanced and transcendent states
> 
> Healthy 2/3s get beyond the immediate desire to please. Image-consciousness and pride drop away and they become able to experience real, heartfelt love. They no longer need the constant reassurance of someone else's admiring gratitude. Two integrates to four, opening up new realms of creative expression, while the three goes to six, bringing in a deeper appreciation of the value of belonging to a real community of friends. They become genuine, loving companions.
> 
> An extremely awake 2/3 is someone whose generosity is so continuous and so genuine that it seems to be an inseparable part of the personality. Never is there even the tiniest hint that anything is expected in return -- in fact, extremely advanced 2/3 sometimes becomes so good at giving that the recipient never finds out where the help came from (or even that it has happened). 2/3 saints somehow encourage the universe to shower gifts on others. Generosity comes through them, not from them.
> 
> 
> unbalanced and unhealthy states
> 
> Unhealthy 2/3 becomes less able to restrain repressed desires. In a misguided attempt to get others to meet their (unspoken) needs, they manufacture more and more imaginary needs to fill for others. Their intrusive, self-satisfied help causes others to move away. 2/3 may hide the resulting loneliness and anger behind an outwardly carefree appearance, but others can usually see that there is hypocrisy involved.
> 
> In the end, very unbalanced 2/3 may break down under the stress. Suddenly the truth will pop out from under the increasingly strained wrappings of self-delusion, and in a desperate effort to paste over the uncomfortable vision, they may fly into an eightish homicidal hysteria or sink into nineish psychotic withdrawal. The repressed feelings of a lifetime might spew out in days or weeks. Relationships that have lasted for years might be discarded like used tissue, leaving others desolate and grief-stricken.
> 
> 
> physical appearance
> 
> 2/3s put a lot of energy into looking good. Many American females wear makeup in almost every public situation, and the males take care to be well-dressed and groomed. Their clothing is usually quite attractive, but not necessarily unique. They like a well-dressed, socially approved kind of sexiness. Some of the most attractive people are young 2/3s, of both sexes. Many 2/3 females, and a good many of the men as well, seem to become rather heavy as they get into their thirties, and some become large well before that time. It is common to see older 2/3 women whose weight is concentrated below their waist. Maybe it has to do with the way twos like to feed others (and thus, themselves as well).
> 
> 
> callings
> 
> Some 2/3s find work that puts them in the spotlight while allowing them to help others. Restaurant headwaiters, hotel managers, executive secretaries, clothing designers. Others build families of close friends and cater to their needs. Massage therapists, cosmetologists, florists, prostitutes, and thousands of career housewives. They might become media stars. Singers, dancers, sex-stars. There are 2/3 retail managers, business leaders, physical therapists, celebrity interviewers, and spouses of powerful people. Of course, 2/3s can also be found doing many other kinds of work.​
> type two
> 
> Twos are empathetic, sincere, and warm-hearted. They are friendly, generous, and self-sacrificing, but can also be sentimental, flattering, and people-pleasing. They are well-meaning and driven to be close to others, but can slip into doing things for others in order to be needed. They typically have problems with possessiveness and with acknowledging their own needs. _At their Best_: unselfish and altruistic, they have unconditional love for others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Basic Fear:* Of being unwanted, unworthy of being loved
> *Basic Desire:* To feel loved
> *Enneagram Two with a One-Wing:* "Servant"
> *Enneagram Two with a Three-Wing:* "The Host/Hostess"
> *Key Motivations:* Want to be loved, to express their feelings for others, to be needed and appreciated, to get others to respond to them, to vindicate their claims about themselves.
> The Meaning of the Arrows (in brief)When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), needy Twos suddenly become aggressive and dominating at Eight. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), prideful, self-deceptive Twos become more self-nurturing and emotionally aware, like healthy Fours. For more information, click here.
> *Examples:* Paramahansa Yogananda, Pope John XXIII, Guru Ammaji (“The Hugging Saint”), Byron Katie, Bishop Desmond Tutu, Eleanor Roosevelt, Nancy Reagan, Monica Lewinsky, Ann Landers, Mary Kay Ash (Mary Kay Cosmetics), Leo Buscaglia, Richard Simmons, Luciano Pavarotti, John Denver, Lionel Richie, Stevie Wonder, Barry Manilow, Dolly Parton, Josh Groban, Music of Journey, Bobby McFerrin, Kenny G, Paula Abdul, Priscilla Presley, Elizabeth Taylor, Danny Thomas, Martin Sheen, Jennifer Tilly, Danny Glover, Richard Thomas “John Boy Walton,” Juliette Binoche, Arsenio Hall, Timothy Treadwell “Grizzly Man,” “Melanie Hamilton Wilkes” (Gone with the Wind), “Eve Harrington” (All About Eve), “Dr. McCoy” (Star Trek)
> Type Two OverviewWe have named personality type Two *The Helper* because people of this type are either the most genuinely helpful to other people or, when they are less healthy they are the most highly invested in _seeing themselves _as helpful. Being generous and going out of their way for others makes Twos feel that theirs is the richest, most meaningful way to live. The love and concern they feel—and the genuine good they do—warms their hearts and makes them feel worthwhile. Twos are most interested in what they feel to be the “really, really good” things in life—love, closeness, sharing, family, and friendship.
> Louise is a minister who shares the joy she finds in being a Two.
> “I cannot imagine being another type and I would not want to be another type. I like being involved in peoples’ lives. I like feeling compassionate, caring, nurturing. I like cooking and homemaking. I like having the confidence that anyone can tell me anything about themselves and I will be able to love them….I am really proud of myself and love myself for being able to be with people where they are. I really can, and do, love people, pets, and things. And I am a great cook!”​When Twos are healthy and in balance, they really are loving, helpful, generous, and considerate. People are drawn to them like bees to honey. Healthy Twos warm others in the glow of their hearts. They enliven others with their appreciation and attention, helping people to see positive qualities in themselves that they had not previously recognized. In short, healthy Twos are the embodiment of “the good parent” that everyone wishes they had: someone who sees them as they are, understands them with immense compassion, helps and encourages with infinite patience, and is always willing to lend a hand—while knowing precisely how and when to let go. Healthy Twos open our hearts because theirs are already so open and they show us the way to be more deeply and richly human.
> Louise continues:
> “All of my jobs revolved around helping people. I was a teacher who wanted to be sensitive to children and help them get off to a good start. I was a religious education director in a number of parishes. I thought that if people learned about the spiritual life, they’d be happier…The most important part of my life is my spiritual life. I was in a religious community for ten years. I married a former priest, and we both have our spirituality as the basis of our life together.”​However, Twos’ inner development may be limited by their “shadow side”—pride, self-deception, the tendency to become over-involved in the lives of others, and the tendency to manipulate others to get their own emotional needs met. Transformational work entails going into dark places in ourselves, and this very much goes against the grain of the Two’s personality structure, which prefers to see itself in only the most positive, glowing terms.
> Perhaps the biggest obstacle facing Twos, Threes, and Fours in their inner work is having to face their underlying Center fear of worthlessness. Beneath the surface, all three types fear that they are without value in themselves, and so they must be or do something extraordinary in order to win love and acceptance from others. In the average to unhealthy Levels, Twos present a false image of being completely generous and unselfish and of not wanting any kind of pay-off for themselves, when in fact, they can have enormous expectations and unacknowledged emotional needs.
> Average to unhealthy _Twos seek valida_ly and richly engaged.
> _tion of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others._ They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”
> But in the healthy range, the picture is completely different. My own (Don) maternal grandmother was an archetypal Two. During World War II, she was “Moms” to what seemed like half of Keisler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi, feeding the boys, allowing her home to be used as a “home away from home,” giving advice and consolation to anyone lonely or fearful about going to war. Although she and her husband were not wealthy and had two teenage children of their own, she cooked extra meals for the servicemen, put them up at night, and saw to it that their uniforms had all of their buttons and were well pressed. She lived until her 80’s, remembering those years as the happiest and most fulfilling of her life—probably because her healthy Two capacities were so fully and richly engaged.
> 
> 
> Fours are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved.
> urs are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved. They are emotionally honest, creative, and personal, but can also be moody and self-conscious. Withholding themselves from others due to feeling vulnerable and defective, they can also feel disdainful and exempt from ordinary ways of living. They typically have problems with melancholy, self-indulgence, and self-pity. _At their Best_: inspired and highly creative, they are able to renew themselves and transform their experiences.
> 
> 
> *Basic Fear:* That they have no identity or personal significance
> *Basic Desire:* To find themselves and their significance (to create an
> identity)
> *Enneagram Four with a Three-Wing:* "The Aristocrat"
> *Enneagram Four with a Five-Wing:* "The Bohemian"
> *Key Motivations:* Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."
> The Meaning of the Arrows (in brief)When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), aloof Fours suddenly become over-involved and clinging at Two. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), envious, emotionally turbulent Fours become more objective and principled, like healthy Ones. For more information, click here.
> *Examples:* Rumi, Frédéric Chopin, Pyotr I Tchaikovsky, Gustav Mahler, Jackie Kennedy Onassis, Edgar Allen Poe, Yukio Mishima, Virginia Woolf, Anne Frank , Karen Blixen / Isak Dinesen, Anaîs Nin, Tennessee Williams, J.D. Salinger, Anne Rice, Frida Kahlo, Diane Arbus, Martha Graham, Rudolf Nureyev, Cindy Sherman, Hank Williams, Billie Holiday, Judy Garland, Maria Callas, Miles Davis, Keith Jarrett, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen, Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens), Ferron, Cher, Stevie Nicks, Annie Lennox, Prince, Sarah McLachlan, Alanis Morrisette, Feist, Florence ( + the Machine) Welch, Amy Winehouse, Ingmar Bergman, Lars von Trier, Marlon Brando, Jeremy Irons, Angelina Jolie, Winona Ryder, Kate Winslet, Nicolas Cage, Johnny Depp, Tattoo Artist Kat Von D., Magician Criss Angel, Streetcar Named Desire “Blanche duBois”
> 4: Descriptions. Type Four OverviewWe have named this type *The Individualist *because Fours maintain their identity by seeing themselves as fundamentally different from others. Fours feel that they are unlike other human beings, and consequently, that no one can understand them or love them adequately. They often see themselves as uniquely talented, possessing special, one-of-a-kind gifts, but also as uniquely disadvantaged or flawed. More than any other type, Fours are acutely aware of and focused on their personal differences and deficiencies.
> Healthy Fours are honest with themselves: they own all of their feelings and can look at their motives, contradictions, and emotional conflicts without denying or whitewashing them. They may not necessarily like what they discover, but they do not try to rationalize their states, nor do they try to hide them from themselves or others. They are not afraid to see themselves “warts and all.” Healthy Fours are willing to reveal highly personal and potentially shameful things about themselves because they are determined to understand the truth of their experience—so that they can discover who they are and come to terms with their emotional history. This ability also enables Fours to endure suffering with a quiet strength. Their familiarity with their own darker nature makes it easier for them to process painful experiences that might overwhelm other types.
> Nevertheless, Fours often report that they feel they are missing something in themselves, although they may have difficulty identifying exactly what that “something” is. Is it will power? Social ease? Self-confidence? Emotional tranquility?—all of which they see in others, seemingly in abundance. Given time and sufficient perspective, Fours generally recognize that they are unsure about _aspects of their self-image_—their personality or ego-structure itself. They feel that they lack a clear and stable identity, particularly a social persona that they feel comfortable with.
> While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The “romantics” of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world. If, over time, such validation remains out of reach, Fours begin to build their identity around _how unlike everyone else they are_. The outsider therefore comforts herself by becoming an insistent individualist: everything must be done on her own, in her own way, on her own terms. Fours’ mantra becomes “I am myself. Nobody understands me. I am different and special,” while they secretly wish they could enjoy the easiness and confidence that others seem to enjoy.
> Fours typically have problems with a negative self-image and chronically low self-esteem. They attempt to compensate for this by cultivating a_Fantasy Self_—an idealized self-image which is built up primarily in their imaginations. A Four we know shared with us that he spent most of his spare time listening to classical music while fantasizing about being a great concert pianist—_à la_ Vladimir Horowitz. Unfortunately, his commitment to practicing fell far short of his fantasized self-image, and he was often embarrassed when people asked him to play for them. His actual abilities, while not poor, became sources of shame.
> In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings. When Fours look inward they see a kaleidoscopic, ever-shifting pattern of emotional reactions. Indeed, Fours accurately perceive a truth about human nature—that it is dynamic and ever changing. But because they want to create a stable, reliable identity from their emotions, they attempt to cultivate only certain feelings while rejecting others. Some feelings are seen as “me,” while others are “not me.” By attempting to hold on to specific moods and express others, Fours believe that they are being true to themselves.
> One of the biggest challenges Fours face is learning to let go of feelings from the past; they tend to nurse wounds and hold onto negative feelings about those who have hurt them. Indeed, Fours can become so attached to longing and disappointment that they are unable to recognize the many treasures in their lives.
> Leigh is a working mother who has struggled with these difficult feelings for many years.
> “I collapse when I am out in the world. I have had a trail of relationship disasters. I have hated my sister’s goodness—and hated goodness in general. I went years without joy in my life, just pretending to smile because real smiles would not come to me. I have had a constant longing for whatever I cannot have. My longings can never become fulfilled because I now realize that I am attached to ‘the longing’ and not to any specific end result.”​There is a Sufi story that relates to this about an old dog that had been badly abused and was near starvation. One day, the dog found a bone, carried it to a safe spot, and started gnawing away. The dog was so hungry that it chewed on the bone for a long time and got every last bit of nourishment that it could out of it. After some time, a kind old man noticed the dog and its pathetic scrap and began quietly setting food out for it. But the poor hound was so attached to its bone that it refused to let go of it and soon starved to death.
> Fours are in the same predicament. As long as they believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with them, they cannot allow themselves to experience or enjoy their many good qualities. To acknowledge their good qualities would be to lose their sense of identity (as a suffering victim) and to be without a relatively consistent personal identity (their Basic Fear). Fours grow by learning to see that much of their story is not true—or at least it is not true any more. The old feelings begin to fall away once they stop telling themselves their old tale: it is irrelevant to who they are right now.
> 
> 
> 
> What concept of the desire of 2 do you not relate to and why?
> 
> Theirs really no real need to feel loved. I like affection and like to give it out even to the point of randomly pat-ing others heads and giving others hugs but there is not a unconscious or conscious desire to need feel loved.
> 
> 
> Do you consciously imitate her moods or does it just happen?
> 
> It just happens its a little strange but I can say little things that sound like her and being dead on. But not physically try to.
> 1. She has a thing about telling others she "hates them that she really likes" when a friend told me that I had never said a mean thing to anyone I jokingly told him "I hated him" which sounded a bit like her.
> 2. She can be both hyper and tired at the same time and I have done that a few times.
> 3.Really anytime I am not in my illogical and smiley self I tend to sound like her a bit.
> I even made a character for a story that I never did who reminds me so much of her.
> She might have different wings and be a sx/so sp/sx shes also a INFP and I am a ENFP so thats a few differences right there.
> We also seem to like similar things anime, vocaloid, some of the same anime series e.c.t
> She also had a crush on two of the same people I had a crush on. 0.o
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you like a rescuer? What need does this fulfill in you?


I guess well escaping situations... I have always had this feeling of wanting to escape certain situations and though at first it was just me escaping them myself I have now noticed that more people will usually help me in those daydreams and storys I have made up to one day write. Though I try to make the primary theme of freeing yourself others usually help in the process. Not to mention that now that I am in unrequited love for someone I have noticed my thoughts draw to him and me leaving for somewhere else and experiencing
having some kind of adventure. Though I also would rather rescue and safe myself and help someone else I am noticing those themes were always there in my mind a idea of a partial rescue. 

Looking at what I highlighted probably a 4 fixer.


----------



## Ace Face

@_Cosmic Orgasm_

I have listened to it again, and I was able to better focus on what you said this time x) I understand you completely, and I agree... not 8. Perhaps you are 8-fixed, but I just want to clarify some things for people.

1. Being a direct person doesn't indicate type one way or the other.
2. Having pet peeves about people being pussies also doesn't indicate type 8.
3. The love of conflict doesn't constitute being typed at 8. 
4. Having a temper and lashing out on people who cross the line... also not solely indicative of 8.

Again, this is a classic example of people misreading the signs. There are _*many*_ different ways this behavior could be interpreted, but _some_ people are choosing to stick one interpretation on it and call it good. Not smart, lol. 

What I got from her recording was this:

The way she describes her enjoyment of conflict is very intriguing. She knows and agrees that she is not above reproach, i.e. she knows that she's not -always- right, and is willing to listen to those close to her when they call her out on her shit. That's respectable, and it shows a willingness and desire to grow... that's what I take from it. She's not going to be bothered by silly namby pamby nonsense because it really doesn't affect her and there is nothing she can really take from it. If it's too stupid, she won't even bother correcting it, and doesn't care to. The stupid speaks for itself... what more does she need to do? It's useless, pointless information that she can't be bothered to spend too much of her precious time and energy on. She can't respect opinions that are unfounded, incorrect, missing the mark, etc. She thinks it's funny though, and she is entertained by it. I believe she enjoys the entertainment and may crave it on some levels. 

And like I told you before, I am in no way glued to idea of you being a 7, but what I personally took from your recording, I can still see possibility for 7 with a line to 5. The desire and blatant choice to be entertained by such nonsense, I believe, is a staple strategy of many type 7s in life. 7s can often have a mocking sort of heir about them when conflict occurs. You do tend to laugh at and mock when certain types of conflicts occur, and there is an emphasis on said enjoyment. There is also an emphasis on being willing to listen to those you respect, who also love and respect you in turn. In this way, I can see possibility for line to 5. I think you actually might enjoy being called out by those close to you because you appreciate the fact that there is room for you to grow. You want to be your best. You are willing to listen and learn, and from what I've observed, you use any new-found knowledge you acquire in a very positive way. You are inspired by people's stories, by their strength, and by their passion. You learn something new from the people you come across, and I think that's almost a must if you are going to have a close friendship with somebody. You want somebody to learn from, who will help make you better, inspire you, teach you, help you grow, etc. You are one with the world, and you are always looking for something new... new stories, new comrades, new poetry, new whatever, to fuel your passionate fire. I could go on and on, but I think I'll stop here for now on how I see 7 and the possible line to 5.

I can also see possibility for line to 1. The criticism and pseudo-cynicism really comes out when somebody crosses a line. You also have a tendency to nit-pick the way things are worded, and your focus on accuracy is pungent... it leaves a certain taste in one's mouth the way you correct what is incorrect, but you only do it if it is worth your time. You have a sense of discernment, and a wisdom I don't think you're truly ever recognized for. There is a balance, you see. 

I am going to once again emphasize that I am in no way convinced of 7, as I could make pretty good cases for you for a couple of other types, but the way I initially interpret what you say always seems to lean toward 7. I would like for you to tell me if any of my assumptions in the above paragraph are correct or incorrect, and tell me why. I would like to know how far off the mark I am, and would like to discount the possibility of 7 if it is worth discounting


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Cosmic Orgasm
thank you for the ebook you sent, but, as usual, the 2 description was *total bullshit*. 2s are not these helpful, Mother Teresa-y servants who want to be seen as "good". they want to be seen as whatever image is considered popular, cool, sexy etc. The Sexual 2 in particular typically has a much more bad/dangerous sort of vibe to them and can be mistaken for 7w8/8w7. in fact, I don't even consider 2 a superego type to begin with. their egocentrism and conceitedness rivals that of 7 and 8.


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> thank you for the ebook you sent, but, as usual, the 2 description was *total bullshit*. 2s are not these helpful, Mother Teresa-y servants who want to be seen as "good". they want to be seen as whatever image is considered popular, cool, sexy etc. The Sexual 2 in particular typically has a much more bad/dangerous sort of vibe to them and can be mistaken for 7w8/8w7. in fact, I don't even consider 2 a superego type to begin with. their egocentrism and conceitedness rivals that of 7 and 8.


You're very welcome!

Blah blah Blah I already corrected that bullshit for you on Skype/ You don't know what superego type means if you discount it for reasons of conceitedness and egocentrism. But, this is so fuckin tempting to shred that I might just get into it later if I am in the mood.

Two is your new Ate. And no, Twos weren't called Mother Teresa-y servants. Teresa was likely a So/Sp 1w2 anyway. She was no 2.


____________
@_Ace Face_

I'll write back soon.  Thanks again.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> You're very welcome!
> Blah blah Blah I already corrected that bullshit for you on Skype/ You don't know what superego type means if you discount it for reasons of conceitedness and egocentrism.


you didn't "correct" anything (that requires you to actually be right)
it's not the fact that they're egocentric that makes me discount superego for them, it's the lack of should/supposed to/duty etc. your typical 2 is much closer to a party animal frat boy/sorority girl than someone people would consider a "helper" (much less a dutiful/superego-y type of helper. that's more 1, Social 7 or Social 6). of course, I'm not saying they _can't_ be helpful, simply that it isn't type related.



> But, this is so fuckin tempting to shred that I might just get into it later if I am in the mood.


bring it. my point is pretty obvious if you read even 5% of Naranjo's description of 2 or the descriptions of the instinctual subtypes for 2, all of which are blatantly Id. 



> Two is your new Ate.


more like new 3, since the majority of most people's impression of 3 is really 2 (usually Social 2). 



> And no, Twos weren't called Mother Teresa-y servants. Teresa was likely a So/Sp 1w2 anyway. She was no 2.


they weren't called that explicitly, but it was implied (and I'm aware of your opinion of Mother Teresa's type. I agree with you there)


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you didn't "correct" anything (that requires you to actually be right)
> it's not the fact that they're egocentric that makes me discount superego for them, it's the lack of should/supposed to/duty etc. your typical 2 is much closer to a party animal frat boy/sorority girl than someone people would consider a "helper" (much less a dutiful/superego-y type of helper. that's more 1, Social 7 or Social 6). of course, I'm not saying they _can't_ be helpful, simply that it isn't type related.
> 
> 
> bring it. my point is pretty obvious if you read even 5% of Naranjo's description of 2 or the descriptions of the instinctual subtypes for 2, all of which are blatantly Id.
> 
> 
> more like new 3, since the majority of most people's impression of 3 is really 2 (usually Social 2).
> 
> 
> they weren't called that explicitly, but it was implied (and I'm aware of your opinion of Mother Teresa's type. I agree with you there)


All you're doing is giving me more to chew out. :3

You are showing the lack of critical thinking skill required to read Naranjo, for what you're doing now is the same lulzy shit people do when they take him out of context and spout nonsense about zomg sadistic 8s and 'masochistic' 4s and other such laughable crap. Let's not get started on correct and incorrect. :kitteh:

Describe to me the difference between Id and Superego. Define those terms. Let's see if you have your basics down pat. So far your claims to 2 Id-ness have been tired ass hokey stereotypes like egocentrism, narcissism and now you come up with sorority girls and party animals? RIGHT lofl. 


I have read all the material available on Instinctual Variants available, except the full RH course on the same. I've just finished reading Beatrice Chestnut's book on the 27 sub-types (the last and most recent work addressing this topic), which rounds it all up nicely. So, 5% my ass. Looks like you have grasped about 5% of what you've read. :3

You'll enjoy what I serve when I do, which should be soon. I'll be replying to Ace and Animal before that. :3 Chronological order and all. 

I'll be with you shortly.


----------



## Sina

@_Ace Face_, you might be interested too. 

First of all, thanks a lot for sharing. You've seen various sides of me, the bad and ugly included. I appreciate your honesty.



Animal said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> 
> I am not sure which of these issues *necessarily* relate to reactivity, but this is what strikes me


No worries. I'll go through it. 



> - People are either on your good side or they aren't. By "good side," that doesn't mean you are mean to everyone else, but just that you trust someone with many things, or you don't even trust them a little bit. Arguably it's a human thing, unrelated, etc; but I see this tendency strongest in reactive types. As you have mentioned in various places on the forum, if someone loses your trust they're done. Apologies have to include XYZ, and happen in a timely fashion, or else it's discounted. You want to know if someone is "in" or "out."


There is a grain of truth to this, yes. I don't really see people as being for/against me, or in similar narrow dichotomies. But, there are very few in-betweens with me. Either I love you/like you a lot or hate/can't fuckin stand you or I am completely indifferent. In that sense, I am very all or nothing. 

With the people in my inner circle or with children and people who are truly suffering, I am very generous, kind, protective, very open to their vulnerability and protective of the same (something you noted below). With people in general, unless they give me a reason not to, I treat everyone with a certain base level of respect. Anything over that is earned or lost by their own actions. 

Where trust is concerned, I have a very rational and healthy relationship with it. Thanks for the thought prompt. It's helping me look at it in more depth.

So, again, there's a general trust I show people, where I give them the benefit of the doubt, take their word at face value etc. When they start acting like passive aggressive fuckwits or display dishonesty (particularly in important matters or in a way that manifests as disrespect, otherwise I don't care) as a pattern, what really goes is respect and trust then really becomes irrelevant. My mind doesn't even go there. 

You retain trust until you lose it by your own actions, same as respect. I don't expect you to fuck up. I don't anticipate you'd fuck up. But, if you do over and over or in a major way that's inexcusable to the point it would be dumb as rocks to let you back in, that I will rightly perceive as a betrayal if I care for you or as just plain ol' disrespect if I don't. And yes, my tolerance for betrayal (and, it takes A LOT for me to feel betrayed) is non-existent which would be the case with most people with healthy self-esteem and personal boundaries. In my case, there's a visceral anger arising more from a place of having been fooled/deceived than principle/right/wrong. I don't appreciate someone for whom I care a lot, or to a large extent, pulling the rug from under my feet in a MAJOR way, suddenly, and worse, at the very rare times that vulnerability is involved on my end (like if I open up to you in a big way and then you dishonour it by doing something really fucked up. In these cases, there is no goddamn room for forgiveness. 

You know how utterly generous, open hearted and forgiving I have been with someone, I loved to death, who hurt me, but this individual's circumstances were such that I knew it was not their intention, and the person was destroying themselves anyway. While I detached and distanced myself, I held no grudges against them. In many cases, when smaller mistakes are involved or someone was going through highly distressing and extenuating circumstances (provided they offer a sincere apology, if they are physically and mentally able), I can be forgiving as hell.

But, with people who intentionally and majorly betray my trust and respect, I do not take that shit lying down. It makes me absolutely furious, and there are very few things out there that do. 

So, if I trust you a lot, it's because I gave you a basic level of trust and respect that I show people and we developed a bond where you earned the right to get close by virtue of being the kind of person I want in my life (good, honest, direct, accountable, able to withstand my intensity, invested in the friendship/relationship if applicable). If I trust someone very little, it's because they demonstrated to me over time that they didn't deserve it. Pretty rational. 




> - You don't have "trust issues" in the sense of paranoia. You don't expect people to be "bad." You take people in with an open heart, which is 7ish at least at surface. But beyond that, you do concern yourself with whether to trust them or not. I think this is a reactive influence (even if you're a core 7).. obviously 7 has two reactive wings, so that goes without saying.  But since we are on the subject of reactivity… you make that differentiation regarding whether or not you consider them trustworthy. This is, again, human and simply intelligent…but it's also associated with reactivity, especially since it's a priority to you. TBF this might come from your past etc, so it's hard to draw that line between reactivity & simple human issues. But you do try to figure out whether someone is trustworthy or not, methinks.


Yup, as you'd read above, I don't have trust issues. Once I've been burnt, then like any sane person, I don't keep making the same mistakes over and over. 




> - You absolutely will not be manipulated, and you are wary of it too, and even reactive against it. When you sense someone is seeking pity or trying to get you to act a certain way via complaining, whining, feeling sorry for themselves- you have no problem telling them to their face that this is bullshit and they are a pussy.


-THIS- is very true and a very reactive trait alongside the visceral response to something serious like betrayal (which means it's a big ass blow of some sort) described above. 

I am not 'wary' of emotional manipulation. I know it when I see it, and I trust my judgment. I have ZERO tolerance for it, and I do react against it. I will mock it, rip it apart and smack people in the face with it, humiliate it and so on. I don't respect manipulative weakness. This is a sharp contrast to the protective kindness I show people who are genuinely vulnerable, genuinely suffering/in genuine distress. I have been told, multiple times, by people who were traumatized or had suffered trauma that my presence was grounded, protective and even relaxing to them. This even applies to friends.

On a different note, there were times when you (and other friends too) were frustrated and got short with me, but I didn't react to i. I saw the frustration, and on a few occasions, the pain that was behind it. Also, it wasn't turned into a habit. Plus, as long as my generosity is not taken for granted or disrespected, I can be very open hearted. 

I also have zero tolerance for sugar coated dishonesty. I don't suspect people's positivity or their help or concern or their words of affirmation and praise of any kind of ill will, but if you are an indirect passive aggressive lame ass tool with sugar dripping off your ass who dances around issues while hurling shit like a demented ape :laughing: or some kind of needlessly defensive and uppity lil shit, I will certainly mock that crap to hell and back. I don't tolerate that either. 

I have so much more respect for people who can be openly and directly assertive and hell even aggressive, as long as they aren't shitting all over themselves and over-reacting. 

So, I appreciate honesty and people, as I said on vocaroo, not using lame pretexts for an 'intellectual challenge' which is anything but, or hiding behind other people's skirts and pointless pansy ass excuses.

To sum up, yes, that distinction between authentic vulnerability and fake ass 'sensitivity' and other such dumb manipulative garbage is something I don't let slide, and this is endemic in my personality. It definitely ticks me the fuck off at a visceral level. 



> You don't do it every time, and you are kind, but if it happens to you over and over, there is no bullshit being tolerated.  (I love this about you btw) … but when someone is TRULY vulnerable, you are immediately and absolutely there for them. You are very, very sensitive to real vulnerability, and very wary of the difference between real vulnerability and emotional manipulation. This mindset & awareness, and wont to make that distinction (or perhaps you do this instinctually), all is associated with type 8. Of course that doesn't mean other core types/ fixers can't do it, but it seems very natural to you, or even endemic. This tells me: core 8, 7w8, or 8 fix is highly likely. Some 8 influence.


Again, this is all very accurate. Read above. 


> - In the simplest colloquial sense, you react to people when they post. Even if the reaction isn't emotional or "oh I'm so hurt" - its still a reaction. An intellectual one, toying with them, laughing, whatever - but you rarely ignore something that interests you, or someone who quotes you; at least that is how it seems; of course I might just not notice when you do. You'd rather write "I'll come back here later, this is awesome!" than write nothing. [I realize you're doing this partly to subscribe to the thread but still.] Silly I know, and possibly not valid in enneagram terms? ..but I figured I'd list it.


LOL no..nothing enneagram reactive there ..just efficiency..oh hey..place holder post 



> You want your fury, passion, sadness, or excitement to be mirrored by others. This can be an SX trait but also a reactive trait.


Only fury and passion. Sadness.nope. As for excitement, I rarely get excited lol, but I think it's human to want others to share in our joy and enthusiasm. 

Thanks again, and I look forward to anything you have to say in reply to this, or to the post you wanted to write (when you are available) about broader typing themes in my case.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Cosmic Orgasm


> *Describe to me the difference between Id and Superego.* Define those terms. Let's see if you have your basics down pat. So far your claims to 2 Id-ness have been tired ass hokey stereotypes like egocentrism, narcissism and now you come up with sorority girls and party animals? RIGHT lofl.


it's not complicated
*Id:* primal desires, sexual lust, seek pleasure, avoid pain, etc
*Superego:* should/should not, "internal parent", self critical, morality, duty, etc

so my question to you: _how the hell can you read Naranjo's 2 description and think it is a superego type?_



> You are showing the lack of critical thinking skill required to read Naranjo, *for what you're doing now is the same lulzy shit people do when they take him out of context* and spout nonsense about zomg sadistic 8s and 'masochistic' 4s and other such laughable crap.


no, I'm reiterating concepts that he makes _blatantly_ clear in his 2 description. how later Enneagram authors came to the conclusions they did is a mystery to me, cuz the 2 they talk about and the 2 in Character and Neurosis are about as similar as Sexual 6s and Self Preservation 9s...



> Let's not get started on correct and incorrect.


I already did, now bring dat shit gurl!


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> 
> it's not complicated
> *Id:* primal desires, sexual lust, seek pleasure, avoid pain, etc
> *Superego:* should/should not, "internal parent", self critical, morality, duty, etc


Going by your understanding of an obvious superego type, sure looks complicated for you. :3


> so my question to you: _how the hell can you read Naranjo's 2 description and think it is a superego type?_
> 
> 
> no, I'm reiterating concepts that he makes _blatantly_ clear in his 2 description. how later Enneagram authors came to the conclusions they did is a mystery to me, cuz the 2 they talk about and the 2 in Character and Neurosis are about as similar as Sexual 6s and Self Preservation 9s...
> 
> 
> I already did, now bring it! =)


Oh, I will. I so will. It'll be worth the wait. Mwahaha  

Btw, why the fuck would you restrict yourself to one author alone? And, I am plenty sure there's enough justification for core superego for 2 in CN. I'll leave it for my post on the topic. :3

Moving on for now. :3


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Going by your understanding of an obvious superego type, sure looks complicated for you. :3
> Oh, I will. I so will. It'll be worth the wait. Mwahaha
> *Btw, why the fuck would you restrict yourself to one author alone?* And, I am plenty sure there's enough justification for core superego for 2 in CN. I'll leave it for my post on the topic. :3
> Moving on for now. :3


I'm not. Maitri's 2 subtypes are pretty Id as well


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm not. Maitri's 2 subtypes are pretty Id as well


Ah thanks for reminding before I forget. Quick point:-

Maitri studied under Naranjo. Maitri, David Daniels, Palmer, O'Hanrahan, Chestnut all pretty much write in Naranjo's tradition re: subtypes. Chestnut admits as much in her book. So, their subtype descriptions more or less sound just like Naranjo's. Main difference being Palmer/Daniels see Sx 6 as applying both to phobics and Cp.

We are talking about type 2 on the whole, btw. I won't address just the subtypes. Should be fun <3


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Ah thanks for reminding before I forget. Quick point:-
> Maitri studied under Naranjo. Maitri, David Daniels, Palmer, O'Hanrahan, Chestnut all pretty much write in Naranjo's tradition re: subtypes. Chestnut admits as much in her book. So, their subtype descriptions more or less sound just like Naranjo's. Main difference being Palmer/Daniels see Sx 6 as applying both to phobics and Cp.
> *We are talking about type 2 on the whole, btw. I won't address just the subtypes.* Should be fun <3


well, given all three subtypes of 2 are described in a clearly Id manner (as opposed to, say, 7, where you have one type which is COMPLETELY different from the others), I think it's safe to assume 2 is a pretty Id driven type overall


----------



## Arya

Swordsman of Mana said:


> well, given all three subtypes of 2 are described in a clearly Id manner (as opposed to, say, 7, where you have one type which is COMPLETELY different from the others), I think it's safe to assume 2 is a pretty Id driven type overall


wait why are they an id type?

"it's not complicated
*Id:* primal desires, sexual lust, seek pleasure, avoid pain, etc
*Superego:* should/should not, "internal parent", self critical, morality, duty, etc"

You're being too vague. I can't even relate to super ego as a six with the words you use.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Arya said:


> wait why are they an id type?


because they're hedonistic, assertive about getting their needs met and extremely seductive (superego heavy people are not seductive. seduction requires appealing to one's base, primal desires)
http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-forum-helper/181668-2-seducer-not-helper.html



> "it's not complicated
> *Id:* primal desires, sexual lust, seek pleasure, avoid pain, etc
> *Superego:* should/should not, "internal parent", self critical, morality, duty, etc"
> You're being too vague. I can't even relate to super ego as a six with the words you use.


I'm not being vague at all. it really is that simple. also, Sexual 6s aren't very superego (I think the whole system needs to be changed to accomodate subtypes. for example, 7 has a whole is extremely Id, but Social 7 is superego as fuck)


----------



## Arya

Swordsman of Mana said:


> because they're hedonistic, assertive about getting their needs met and extremely seductive (superego heavy people are not seductive. seduction requires appealing to one's base, primal desires)
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-forum-helper/181668-2-seducer-not-helper.html
> 
> 
> I'm not being vague at all. it really is that simple. also, Sexual 6s aren't very superego (I think the whole system needs to be changed to accomodate subtypes. for example, 7 has a whole is extremely Id, but Social 7 is superego as fuck)


I'm very superego. You aren't understanding superego properly. All sixes for instance are going after their most basic primal survival needs. That does not make them id. I am very superego in that I have a referee in my brain telling me which behavior will keep me safe and which will put me into danger. The behavior that causes me danger gets discarded as stupid, illogical behavior, and I do not allow myself to act in that way. And people who do portray that weak, foolish behavior make me uncomfortable because I've suppressed all of my own similar behavior into my subconscious. A lot of sixes pick up on the foolishness and weakness of others like a blood hound for this reason. And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether I'm seductive or not, which I can be, or duty or morals or any of that. Twos, on the other hand, have a voice in their head that tells them what they have to do in order to be loved. It may tell them that being a seductress will bring them love or it could tell them that meeting all of the other person's needs will bring them love. And they will discard other behavior because they do not think they can be loved if they act in that way. The behavior they discard is what gets suppressed. The words you used would apply more to type one.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Arya said:


> Twos, on the other hand, have a voice in their head that tells them what they have to do in order to be loved. It may tell them that being a seductress will bring them love or it could tell them that meeting all of the other person's needs will bring them love. And they will discard other behavior because they do not think they can be loved if they act in that way. The behavior they discard is what gets suppressed.


I do think that's a good point, and also, I'd say a seductress does often seek to meet the other's needs as well, albeit in a sexual way.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Arya said:


> I'm very superego. You aren't understanding superego properly. All sixes for instance are going after their most basic primal survival needs. That does not make them id. I am very superego in that I have a referee in my brain telling me which behavior will keep me safe and which will put me into danger. The behavior that causes me danger gets discarded as stupid, illogical behavior, and I do not allow myself to act in that way. And people who do portray that weak, foolish behavior make me uncomfortable because I've suppressed all of my own similar behavior into my subconscious. A lot of sixes pick up on the foolishness and weakness of others like a blood hound for this reason. And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether I'm seductive or not, which I can be, or duty or morals or any of that. *Twos, on the other hand, have a voice in their head that tells them what they have to do in order to be loved. It may tell them that being a seductress will bring them love or it could tell them that meeting all of the other person's needs will bring them love. And they will discard other behavior because they do not think they can be loved if they act in that way. The behavior they discard is what gets suppressed. The words you used would apply more to type one.*


you do have a point, but that's called a _superego fixation_, and it's something that _every_ type has. it doesn't make them fundamentally superego. you could use the same logic to say that 3 is a superego type because of the voice in their head that tells them what they have to do to be successful or that 8 is a superego type because of what a similiar voice tells them they have to do to be strong/avoid being weak.


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## Nobleheart

Id: The impulse. "I want that."
Ego: The self. "I can attain it if I do this."
Superego: The conscience. "But it is wrong."

My opinion is that the Superego represents the part of the self that regulates what is right and wrong on a moral-ethical level (as opposed to correct and incorrect on a logical level), the source of our ideals that are both internal and external to us. Obviously, this is subjective to any given individual, but that person's conscience as it influences their actions and desires would be the Superego. The more developed we become the more our Superego forms 'opinions' on any given subject or action. What is at its core a very simple function extrapolates into very complex mechanisms, and those mechanisms tend to be filtered through our cognitive functions.

Since the Superego isn't directly self serving, my assumption is that humans evolved the Superego as an adaptation for communal survival, or that the Superego is an extension of our survival instincts that have adapted to a tribal model. In either case, the end result is that this is the part of the brain that says "that would be bad", and since we are communal creatures, it includes a lot of behaviors that help humans exist in a tribal model without fragmenting into in fighting. That said, the Superego has a strong element of "concern for others" both for their safety and well being, but also their opinions. I believe this part of the mind is tied to our survival mechanisms, and is essentially the part of the brain that has evolved to feel that survival is dependent upon others and the health of the community, which came out of the part that tells us fire, snakes, and falling long distances are bad. 

It is therefore my opinion that types 6, 2, and 1 are respectively formed by early childhood experiences that push, encourage, or pull children to draw into their Superegos in order to successfully navigate life. From there, defense mechanisms are formed, and the individual builds more and more architecture onto that core.

When a child is pushed into their Superego by not feeling safe and their Superego reactions provide safety, the result is a _reactive_ mechanism - 6.
When a child is encouraged into their Superego by being shown that their Superego behaviors earn them love, the result is a _control_ mechanism - 2.
When a child is pulled into their Superego by being shown that not engaging their Superego manifestations earns them punishment, the result is a _competence_ mechanism - 1.

Even the sexual subtypes fall into the Superego mechanisms. The difference is that they're more *Instinctive* about their focus, which is a better descriptor than 'Sexual' since the focus is libidinous in a classic sense. 6 SX wants to be able to confront whatever threatens the Superego's sense of community or security, and therefore have the personal power to do so. 2 SX wants to serve their Superego by focusing on serving the instinctive needs of others, and therefore earn love, and therefore wants the sex appeal to do so. 1 SX wants to assert their Superego via intensity and thus strengthen their community with shared ideals and efficiency, and therefore wants the rigor and veracity to do so.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Cosmic Orgasm
I should clarify: I don't believe _every little detail_ of Naranjo's work (off the top of my head, I see 7s as more direct, 5s as less superego and non Sx dom 8s are more logical), but I _do_ believe he captures the essence/character of each of the subtypes more succinctly than modern interpretations not based on his work. the reason I do not see 2 as a superego type or primarily helper/service oriented is because this is absolutely _nothing_ like the 2 described originally in the Enneagram (aside from the need for love, there's barely any overlap whatsoever. they may as well be descriptions about completely different types). 2 exceptions I can concede are
1) mature Social 2s are more community minded/less egocentric than other 2s and are often proponents of social justice
2) 2s in general are very generous, but giving is not the key component of their fixation (and _certainly_ not sacrificial giving)
@Nobleheart
I think you are 2w1>1w9>6w7 So/Sx (maybe 1w2 fix or core). you have a heavier presence than I would associate with a head type (particularly 6w7)


----------



## Sina

@_Swordsman of Mana_

You raised a more intriguing point than I had given you credit for initially, and I dismissed it entirely somewhat prematurely.  . 

I don't see 2 as an Id-type though I gave that suggestion a fair consideration while re-reading descriptions in a couple of books. After a refresher reading of Naranjo's 2, it's become more obvious why his 2 is superficially (this is key) Id-ish in his writings and why you may not see it as a superego type if you were going mainly by his description. In fact, it's more outwardly Id-ish than 7 which he describes as 'sweet', 'gentle', 'soft minded', which is just nonsense. He over-attributes hedonistic, sexually aggressive, pushy, impulsive traits to 2 (which is a very obvious and strong Sx 2 bias) without truly hitting at the superego driven nature of the 2's pride and defense mechanism of repression. The same 'id-ish' qualities are seen in other Sx superego types like 1 and 6, hell even Sx 4. However, the entirety of those descriptions doesn't have that bias as evident in his 2 description. There's a reason for it, and I'll cover it later. Anyway, it is glamourized at the expense of a more in depth examination of what drives the love needs and "give to get" strategy that's mostly unconscious. So definitely, it's not as straightforward within the Naranjo 'canon' so to speak, but other 2 descriptions are not written along the same lines. 

You can't isolate paragraph long sub-type descriptions and call it in Id-type, even in Maitri's works. Her Type 2 description, while alluding to Naranjo in several places, clearly places 2 as a superego core. Beatrice Chestnut kills it, though, in her recent book. She's a self-typed 2, and that makes it even more fun. 

And no, I have never seen 2s as purely altruistic or selflessly sacrificing.

Anyway, you'll have to wait till I have organized my thoughts on this since I am not going to give you a surface-y reply here.  I shared some points with you on Skype. Will flesh them out in more detail here later.

So thanks for bringing up something that was far more thought provoking than I'd initially expected.


----------



## Nobleheart

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @ Nobleheart
> I think you are 2w1>1w9>6w7 So/Sx (maybe 1w2 fix or core). you have a heavier presence than I would associate with a head type (particularly 6w7)


Like a lot of Fi users who can't seem to divorce themselves from the assumption that Enneatype is a function of Fi, you're mistaking Fe for 2 core / fixation. The F functions filter our core motivations very early in the process, but they are not the core motivations themselves. It's the classic "If I had that motivation, it would manifest like this" / "If I behaved like that, it would mean these motivations" egocentric approach to type that forums like this exist to help dispel. Enneatype is deeper than cognitive functions, lurking between them and the instincts of our monkey brain.

I've been following this and other threads, and you guys are getting kinda out there with your interpretations.

More proof of this is your assumption that a 'heavy presence' negates 6w7. If you mean heavy presence in the sense of being active on a forum, a head type is highly likely to need a place to dump their head energy. The 6 wall of text is an obvious tell. If you mean heavy presence in the sense of intense personality, you're even more off base. Here are a few 6w7 exemplars.

6w7 so/sp *Jerry Falwell*: Angry preacher
6w7 so/sp *Michelle Bachman*: Angry conservative
6w7 so/sp *Stephen Colbert*: Angry commentator
6w7 so/sp *Maria Shriver*: Angry liberal
6w7 so/sp *Jesse Ventura*: Angry independent
6w7 so/sp *Sean Hannity*: Angry conservative
6w7 so/sp *Rachel Maddow*: Angry liberal
6w7 so/sp *Rush Limbaugh*: Angry fat guy
6w7 so/sp *Rosie O'donnell*: Angry fat chick
6w7 so/sp *Mo'nique*: Angry black woman

6w7 sp/so *George Carlin*: Angry old guy
6w7 sp/so *Michael Moore*: Angry fat liberal
6w7 sp/so *Ron Paul*: Angry libertarian
6w7 sp/so *Chuck Norris*: Because Chuck Norris
6w7 sp/so *Eric Von Sydow*: Angry motivational speaker

6w7 sp/sx *Malcolm Mcdowell*: Caligula, Clockwork Orange
6w7 sp/sx *Ozzy Osbourne*: The Prince of Darkness
6w7 sp/sx *Dennis Hopper*: One of Hollywood's heavies
6w7 sp/sx *Keith Richards*: Alive through sheer willpower
6w7 sp/sx *Gene Hackman*: One of Hollywood's heavies
6w7 sp/sx *Nick Nolte*: One of Hollywood's heavies
6w7 sp/sx *Amy Fisher*: Got away with murder

6w7 sx/so *Mia Farrow*: Intense activist
6w7 sx/so *Michael Ironside*: One of Hollywood's heavies
6w7 sx/so *Brian Dennehy*: One of Hollywood's heavies
6w7 sx/so *Steven Van Zandt*: One of Rock's heavies

6w7 sx/sp *Dennis Rodman*: One of the NBA's heavies
6w7 sx/sp *Iggy Pop*: Force of Nature
6w7 sx/sp *Alexyss K Tylor*: Aww hell no
6w7 sx/sp *Angry Grandpa*: Classic 6w7 sx
6w7 sx/sp *Henry Rollins*: Henry. Fucking. Rollins.
6w7 sx/sp *Paddy Doherty*: Pikey From Hell
6w7 sx/sp *Mike Tyson*: Mike "I'm a Barbarian" Tyson
6w7 sx/sp *Axl Rose*: I rest my case

In other words, you've fallen in love with your own opinions and lost sight of how this actually works. Pull back a few steps and recalibrate.


----------



## Sina

@_Nobleheart_

He is probably referring to you not seeming bubbly and endearing (phobic) OR "quick to react" or showing 'scattered' aggression (cp) or being all over the place. XD Now, I am curious what that 'heavy presence' meant, because on every typing thread of yours, you've always walked away convinced of 6w7 and made rather convincing arguments for the same. I really don't see you as a 2, though I see how one might get that as a passing impression. The core 6 has always stood out. 

In terms of presence, @_Promethea_ is a cp6w7 and the furthest thing from how cp6w7s are stereotyped around here. @_Noble Demon_ is another cp6w7 who comes to mind who fails to live up to every tired cp6w7 stereotype perpetuated here that I can think of, unless he threw a TV set at a kitten or something during the last week or so. 

Likely not a reference to your post count, because it's really not that high and you've been here a while lol. 

And lmfao @ all the angry fat people on the list.


----------



## Nobleheart

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> He is probably referring to you not seeming bubbly and endearing (phobic) OR "quick to react" or showing 'scattered' aggression (cp). XD


I don't come across as "quick to react" or showing 'scattered' aggression? 

(chortle)



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> In terms of presence, @_Promethea_ is a cp6w7 and the furthest thing from how cp6w7s are stereotyped around here. @_Noble Demon_ is another cp6w7 who comes to mind who counters every tired cp6w7 stereotype perpetuated here that I can think of, unless he threw a TV set at a kitten during the last week or so.


I think the stereotypes around here miss a lot of points, and have unfortunately become entrenched. 



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Likely not a reference to your post count, because it's really not that high and you've been here a while lol.


I mentioned that to remove any outs. I know how these Ne types like to switch the perspective when their argument gets ruined.



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> And lmfao @ all the angry fat people on the list.


IKR!?


----------



## Sina

Nobleheart said:


> I don't come across as "quick to react" or showing 'scattered' aggression?
> 
> (chortle)


I need a cp6 shitshow fit for Broadway, served hot, before I give you credit for all that TM sixy badassery. :3




> I think the stereotypes around here miss a lot of points, and have unfortunately become entrenched.


Mhmm



> I mentioned that to remove any outs. I know how these Ne types like to switch the perspective when their argument gets ruined.


I could use some Ne.




> IKR!?












____________

Oh btw, a few days back you were talking about some typing confusion in your lengthier post before expressing disappointment with the E. Is 6 vs 2 vs. 1 still a trouble spot for you or have you finally started to see your core as 6 unequivocally? I think it may be a wonderful idea for you to write a Type misidentification post/thread about the 2 vs 6 deal. There's way too much covering 6 and 8. You do seem to display some typically 2ish behaviours and drives from what I recall from all your typing threads, but the source is 6, with the strong Sx and expansive 7 wing giving a mix of 2 and 8 impressions. It could be very useful for others in the same boat. You have some posts on that around the forum, so a synthesis of your findings and experiences in one place could be quite insightful.


----------



## Promethea

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Nobleheart_
> 
> He is probably referring to you not seeming bubbly and endearing (phobic) OR "quick to react" or showing 'scattered' aggression (cp) or being all over the place. XD Now, I am curious what that 'heavy presence' meant, because on every typing thread of yours, you've always walked away convinced of 6w7 and made rather convincing arguments for the same. I really don't see you as a 2, though I see how one might get that as a passing impression. The core 6 has always stood out.
> 
> In terms of presence, @_Promethea_ is a cp6w7 and the furthest thing from how cp6w7s are stereotyped around here. @_Noble Demon_ is another cp6w7 who comes to mind who fails to live up to every tired cp6w7 stereotype perpetuated here that I can think of, unless he threw a TV set at a kitten or something during the last week or so.
> 
> Likely not a reference to your post count, because it's really not that high and you've been here a while lol.
> 
> And lmfao @ all the angry fat people on the list.


I like his "angry black woman" sub-type of 6w7 there too. -_-


----------



## Sina

Promethea said:


> I like his "angry black woman" sub-type of 6w7 there too. -_-


Oh my! I missed that one. The "angry black woman" is my all time favourite sub-type too, now introducing the sixy incarnate. He appreciates dat blacker the berry... ^_^.


----------



## petite libellule

Promethea said:


> I like his "angry black woman" sub-type of 6w7 there too. -_-


What? I missed it. How awful since I've ALWAYS had an ongoing joke w/ myself that my self esteem or when I assert my boundaries etc. is named shaniqwa :tongue: It's uncomfortable so I'll do the counter phobic push thing with humor to make it feel more comfortable to be like, "bitch! You hurt my feelings! Ain't nobody got time for that rude as shit". And then I jerk my head around like I have swimmers ear or something. On occasion, I'll be Gina from Martin and proudly think "daaaaaaaamn Gina!". Because I astonish myself often that I have the balls to stand up for myself. It's like a big event in my head ya know ... Despite however it appears on the outside. I make no sense  Because this is all in my head. In reality I sound like a giant dork leaning on scripts I've read in books about conflict resolution and stuff. Lol!!


----------



## Nobleheart

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I need a cp6 shitshow fit for Broadway, served hot, before I give you credit for all that TM sixy badassery. :3


Unlikely to ever happen. Anger makes me non-verbal. Probably an sx thing. Superego makes me reluctant to vent my anger on people. If I get so angry that my anger overrides my Superego, I am no longer verbal and definitely not typing on a keyboard.



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Oh btw, a few days back you were talking about some typing confusion in your lengthier post before expressing disappointment with the E. Is 6 vs 2 vs. 1 still a trouble spot for you or have you finally started to see your core as 6 unequivocally?


You used '6' and 'unequivocally' in the same sentence. Heh. Good one.

I had issues with 6 vs. 1, as well as 4 and 8. I've never seriously assumed I was a 2 other than to consider and dismiss. Online, I've been accused of 2 quite frequently, usually by Fi users who mistake Fe for 2, or those who tl;dr my need for 'love' as 2. My compare and contrast was inclusive of a refute of those assumptions, along with my own mistype assumptions.

But to answer your question, 6 finally started to come into focus once I determined my tritype, then stopped and considered the elements that comprise each type. 

Also, I wasn't expressing disappointment with Enneagram. I was fed up with the contentiousness in the forums on the subject. 



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I think it may be a wonderful idea for you to write a Type misidentification post/thread about the 2 vs 6 deal. There's way too much covering 6 and 8. You do seem to display some typically 2ish behaviours and drives from what I recall from all your threads, but the source is 6, with the strong Sx and expansive 7 wing giving a mix of 2 and 8 impressions. It could be very useful for others in the same boat. You have some posts on that around the forum, so a synthesis of your findings and experiences in one place could be quite insightful.


Honestly, I'm not familiar enough with 2 to do a compare and contrast like that beyond my superego manifestation explanation. I can see how I don't line up with it, and I feel like I grasp it from the outside, but I couldn't compare and contrast from 2's side of the fence. The end result would be "This is why I'm not a 2". Maybe later once I've wrapped my head around 2 core a little better.

However, I think this forum needs less compare and contrast of types and more focus and explanation on what the types are constructed of. Without that foundation, there is no standard by which to measure, and nothing to curb this conjecture based opinion bickering of late.



Promethea said:


> I like *his* "angry black woman" sub-type of 6w7 there too. -_-





Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Oh my! I missed that one. The "angry black woman" is my all time favourite sub-type too, now introducing the sixy incarnate. *He* appreciates dat blacker the berry... ^_^.


Last I checked, dating black women does not exclude me from being one.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Nobleheart


> Like a lot of Fi users who can't seem to divorce themselves from the assumption that Enneatype is a function of Fi, you're mistaking Fe for 2 core / fixation.


actually, if you read my arguments about the nature of type 2 in this thread, I have made no such mistake. 



> *If you mean heavy presence in the sense of intense personality*, you're even more off base. Here are a few 6w7 exemplars.


that's not what I meant. 

the reason I type you as 2 and not 6 is because you have more of a noble/proud energy about you (and it's more the self righteous, knightly pride of the 2w1 than the more glamorous, showy pride of a 2w3) as opposed to the much faster, phobic/counterphobic energy of a 6.


----------



## Nobleheart

Swordsman of Mana said:


> actually, if you read my arguments about the nature of type 2 in this thread, I have made no such mistake.


You have, but you're not the only one doing it. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> that's not what I meant.


What follows is not a very good example of 'heavy'. Looks like you're doing that Ne table turning thing to defend your argument/ego.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> the reason I type you as 2 and not 6 is because you have more of a noble/proud energy about you (and it's more the self righteous, knightly pride of the 2w1 than the more glamorous, showy pride of a 2w3) as opposed to the much faster, phobic/counterphobic energy of a 6.


Not sure how you're seeing that other than letting my screen name taint your perception of me, which has admittedly caused more than a few people to make similar assumptions, but *I am excessively complimented. Thank you. * However, my personality is not where the screen name comes from. It was the last name of my EverQuest characters, and that name evolved through interaction with the game and its setting.

So, let's analyze this. You mention pride, pride, self righteous, and pride. I've been accused of this before by Fi users. It's become a running joke with my Fe friends. I wear t-shirts, frumpy guy pants, and no make up. I drive an old subcompact with dents in the fenders. I will say anything to anyone, and could care less if it makes me look bad. My self esteem issues are as epic as my abandonment issues, and both have been known to cause me months of crippling anxiety-depression spirals.

The issue comes when on a values level, I seem to imply a demand that people agree with my values - because my values are 'right'. While this is toxic to unhealthy Fi, it's not pride. It's an appeal for emotional consensus to establish and maintain the support network. It's a form of leadership begging, with the intensity coming from my sx energy, 4 fix idealism, and 8 fix need to assert. It couldn't be more cp 6 sx.

But, I'm sure you're seeing me more clearly than I am, so tell me more about my pride and how it isn't simply your Fi being offended by my Fe, or associating my Fe mannerisms with prideful people who are also Fe that have left you with a "makes me feel".


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Nobleheart


> You have, but you're not the only one doing it.


clearly you didn't read my post then, because I described 2s as extremely egocentric and self serving 



> What follows is not a very good example of 'heavy'. Looks like you're doing that Ne table turning thing to defend your argument/ego.


projection (my typing of you has changed before. this is not an argument my ego is invested in)



> *Not sure how you're seeing that other than letting my screen name taint your perception of me which has admittedly caused more than a few people to make similar assumptions, but I am excessively complimented*. Thank you. However, my personality is not where the screen name comes from. It was the last name of my EverQuest characters, and that name evolved through interaction with the game and its setting.


it's not your screen name, rather that you seem like you're trying to sound like some sort of holier than thou warrior-sage and only half way pull it off (you don't completely make an ass of yourself, but you don't quite get it either). it doesn't come off as cerebral or reactive as 6, but you're also easily offended and can become aggressive under such circumstances. 

anyway, in light of the projection I've seen in this post, I am reconsidering 6 for you


----------



## Nobleheart

Swordsman of Mana said:


> extremely egocentric and self serving


Every unhealthy Fi I know uses these exact descriptors when upset with Fe... well, these and "self righteous", but you mentioned it earlier. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> projection (my typing of you has changed before. this is not an argument my ego is invested in)


If you don't think your ego is invested in winning debates on the internet, you might want to revisit a few of the ten thousand posts you've made on this forum. ;-)



Swordsman of Mana said:


> you seem like you're trying to sound like some sort of holier than thou


Fi projection onto Fe again. 

What I'm trying to do is convince *myself*. Skepticism seeking terminus. Superego sharing a release from skepticism. My Ni needs to solve. My urge to support network is offering others what I would need. It's 6-ish alarm ringing on a micro scale. It's "Hey, I fixed the problem. You don't have to worry about it anymore."



Swordsman of Mana said:


> warrior-sage


Let me take a minute to bask in this compliment. I very much _want_ to be a bad ass.

See? Here's the thing. If I'm a warrior-sage, I'm generating pre-emptive defense by discouraging people from attacking me. This is the entire mechanism behind the "Strength and Beauty" attributed to CP 6. 

CP 6 is skepticism turned assertive. Troubleshooting and preparation. What better way to counter a threat than being more of a threat?



Swordsman of Mana said:


> and only half way pull it off


Again, I'll take it. That's half a loaf where I would otherwise have none, and law of averages with human nature dictates that if I halfway pull it off, much less than half of the population will try me. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> (you don't completely make an ass of yourself,


Years of practice and experience from failure. I can assure you the reflex to do so is a constant. You have no idea how badly I abuse my backspace key. And the reason for this is simple. I've learned that my reactions endanger my relationships / support network.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> but you don't quite get it either).


Show me a 6 that can allow themselves to hold on to any conceptual truth that they actually do manage to 'get' before talking themselves out of it. However, I am sticking to my guns that part of this is that you're expecting me to 'get' your Fi sensibilities on the subject.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> it doesn't come off as cerebral or reactive as 6,


It doesn't? You do realize I'm a contender for the title of Wall of Text Avatar?



Swordsman of Mana said:


> but you're also easily offended and can become aggressive under such circumstances.


Getting warmer.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> anyway, in light of the projection I've seen in this post, I am reconsidering 6 for you


For the record, I _really_ don't want to be a 6. People knowing this about me leaves me vulnerable in ways I am not comfortable with. I'd rather protect myself with misdirection. I'd rather be seen as an 8, 1, or 2. Being an 8 could make people intimidated. Being a 1 or a 2 could make people trust me (thus bolstering the support network and my relationships). Being a 4 could leave people with no reason to accept me into their support circle, and that makes my abandonment issues uncomfortable. However, figuring out the 6 mechanisms for myself gives me more power over it than others could leverage if so inclined to capitalize on my weaknesses. Wow. Can't believe I just admitted that, but it's a classic example of why 6's move toward 3 when disintegrating.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Nobleheart


> Every unhealthy Fi I know uses these exact descriptors when upset with Fe... well, these and "self righteous", but you mentioned it earlier.


not me (I think they could stand a bit more of it). I happen to like people who are egocentric and self serving 



> If you don't think your ego is invested in winning debates on the internet, you might want to revisit a few of the ten thousand posts you've made on this forum. ;-)


I have. 98% of them are little more than Ne 7 mind dumbs. when I do engage in arguments, it usually isn't for long unless I'm pissed about the principle of the matter (1 fix says hi ^_^ ). these are the times where I have trouble admitting I'm wrong, not debates over things which have no relevance to me.

in fact, you have convinced me over the course of this conversation that you are probably 6 (projection, overly elaborated responses, got personal _really_ quickly).



> Fi projection onto Fe again.
> *What I'm trying to do is convince myself.* Skepticism seeking terminus. Superego sharing a release from skepticism. My Ni needs to solve. My urge to support network is offering others what I would need. It's 6-ish alarm ringing on a micro scale. It's "Hey, I fixed the problem. You don't have to worry about it anymore."


we aren't in disagreement. the bold is exactly what I was referring to. 

PS: you are taking issue with my Ne (my making seemingly random, disorganized observations), not my Fi.


----------



## Nobleheart

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Nobleheart
> 
> not me (I think they could stand a bit more of it). I happen to like people who are egocentric and self serving


Aww, I like you too. ;-)



Swordsman of Mana said:


> I have. 98% of them are little more than Ne 7 mind dumbs.


Thank you for validation on the mind dumps.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> when I do engage in arguments, it usually isn't for long unless I'm pissed about the principle of the matter (1 fix says hi ^_^ ). these are the times where *I have trouble admitting I'm wrong,* not debates over things which have no relevance to me.


Admitting you are wrong is relevant to your interests. However, your Ne can always come up with a reason why you're not. Heh, this moment reminds me of standing between two mirrors.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> in fact, you have convinced me over the course of this conversation that you are probably 6 (projection, overly elaborated responses, got personal _really_ quickly).


And that very dry yet intense 6-ish reactivity. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> we aren't in disagreement. the bold is exactly what I was referring to.


Heh, good aikido. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> PS: you are taking issue with my Ne (my making seemingly random, disorganized observations), not my Fi.


No, I'm taking issue with using your Ne to keep changing your stance to allow your Fi to get away with its bullshit. ;-) 

But, if I've got you to the point that you have to change your stance into agreeing with me for you to be right, I'll let it slide from here. Dealing with NeFi is like trying to herd ferrets. Sometimes you have to settle for just getting them all in one room and then shut the door, lest you start the whole process of one squeezing loose when you try to grab another all over again.

Meh, thanks for being my hobby today.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Nobleheart
at this point, the only thing I have to respond to is


> Admitting you are wrong is relevant to your interests. However, your Ne can always come up with a reason why you're not. Heh, this moment reminds me of standing between two mirrors.


this is more of an ENTP thing. it's an Ne/Ti,"lets twist people's words around out of boredom and a desire to look smart" kinda deal that ENFPs really don't care about. 

if you're trying to convince me of 6, it's working. you're clearly trying to goad me into some sort of head center-y verbal spar (your Ti is being playful :tongue: )


----------



## Flatlander

Doll said:


> Oh snap.
> 
> No one thinks I could be mistyped? I've been away too long. No one probably even remembers who I am. *pulls out a tiny violin*


I remember who you are, but don't see a problem with your typing at 4 offhand.


----------



## Doll

Flatliner said:


> I remember who you are, but don't see a problem with your typing at 4 offhand.


You remember meeee! Yay


----------



## Flatlander

Doll said:


> You remember meeee! Yay


I do. I often recall specific people that interested me, even if we never interacted, or didn't interact much. You were one such.


----------



## Doll

Flatliner said:


> I do. I often recall specific people that interested me, even if we never interacted, or didn't interact much. You were one such.


I remember you partly because of your type; the sx-first five is pretty rare, which I found admirable. Wasn't there a thread about sexual fives a loooong time ago that you participated in?


----------



## Flatlander

Doll said:


> I remember you partly because of your type; the sx-first five is pretty rare, which I found admirable. Wasn't there a thread about sexual fives a loooong time ago that you participated in?


Might have been. I typed myself at sp for awhile though, because I hadn't seen through my own issues and patterns completely.


----------



## Pelopra

me:
sp/so or sp/sx?
(or i'm off about being sp-first?)

i thought sp/sx but now I'm not sure.


---
Edit: read more sp/sx descriptions, newly swayed back in sp/sx direction.


----------



## Bricolage

Doll said:


> Oh snap.
> 
> No one thinks I could be mistyped? I've been away too long. No one probably even remembers who I am. *pulls out a tiny violin*


I remember you. roud:


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> You remember meeee! Yay


I remember you too  but your enneagram typing seems accurate, and I don't type other people with MBTI/JCF so I have no opinion on that portion.


----------



## Doll

Bricolage said:


> I remember you. roud:





Animal said:


> I remember you too  but your enneagram typing seems accurate, and I don't type other people with MBTI/JCF so I have no opinion on that portion.


Awww yay hi   

Er, this might sound ignorant, but what is JCF? Is that the IEI IEE thing?


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> Awww yay hi
> 
> Er, this might sound ignorant, but what is JCF? Is that the IEI IEE thing?


Hii! 

Jungian Cognitive Functions. It's basically the original idea of functions which takes them one at a time as a model of cognition (ie. Ne-F) , rahter than the MBTI which takes the whole thing and makes it into a 'Personality' with behavior traits.

IEE/IEE etc.. is socionics. Socionics is mostly over my head, because it uses the same functions and applies them differently and I haven't had time to navigate each application.. but there's a whole system of how each one functions in your psyche based on its place in the lineup. Each type has an order that includes all 8 functions and their place.


----------



## Nobleheart

Animal said:


> IEE/IEE etc.. is socionics. Socionics is mostly over my head, because it uses the same functions and applies them differently and I haven't had time to navigate each application.. but there's a whole system of how each one functions in your psyche based on its place in the lineup. Each type has an order that includes all 8 functions and their place.


If you can find transliterated Russian info on Socionics, it's quite interesting. However, the English speaking Socionics crowd has some really kooky ideas. Granted, a few of them are brilliant. I'm just saying to take it with a grain of salt if you ever decide to mine it for ideas.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Nobleheart
back to the "6w7 angry black women list" :laughing:


> Jesse Ventura: 6w7 So/Sp


EIGHT! that dude is more gut center than a neanderthal (even though he's actually really intelligent lol)




> Mike Tyson: 6w7 Sx/Sp


Sx/So
Sp last as hell

also, most of your Sx last 6s are probably mistyped. it is the Sexual 6 which is the super feisty, angry 6.


----------



## Bricolage

Swordsman of Mana said:


> EIGHT! that dude is more gut center than a neanderthal (even though he's actually really intelligent lol)


Jesse_ is_ an eight. He also has that rallying the troops social eight thing going on. It's almost like type 6 where he susses out these quasi-conspiracy theories for the public good, in his mind. There's a don't fuck with me vibe and a kind of wall-like gut-center stand your ground flavor to him.


----------



## Nobleheart

Wasn't my list. I pulled it from Stackemup Enneagram. I could see an argument for CP 6 being made based on his conspiracy theory enthusiasm and constant focus on what need to be protected against or preemptively attacked, but if so, he's definitely an 8 fix. Granted, my reaction to him being in the 6 list was "waitwut?" but hey, I was deferring to the 'experts'.

Though, if you bitches are trying to argue that Jesse ISN'T an angry black woman, we are done here.


----------



## Bricolage

Nobleheart said:


> Though, if you bitches are trying to argue that Jesse ISN'T an angry black woman, we are done here.


No argument there from me. Jesse is just way more grounded and I could kick your ass but I'll choose not to than the 6s I've encountered over the years; some average sixes have that nervous mental energy and obedience to an outsider source thing going on; Jesse is the authority (or thinks he is lol). I might say 6 fixed. Actually the truth teller 4-6-8 for Jesse doesn't seem far off.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Bricolage
I think he's 8-6-3 personally


----------



## Bricolage

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Bricolage_
> I think he's 8-6-3 personally


Yeah, the four didn't even sound right as I was saying it. 8-6 is his one-two it seems either way. 6w5.


----------



## Nobleheart

8+6 = this fucked up volcano of Superego and Id Reactivity without an Ego to reign it in.


----------



## Bricolage

Nobleheart said:


> 8+6 = this fucked up volcano of Superego and Id Reactivity without an Ego to reign it in.


It's kinda like - fuck you_ and_ your mama + I'm doing this for a worthy cause ~ Charles Manson.


----------



## Nobleheart




----------



## Bricolage

Nobleheart said:


>


Or maybe smite first, detect evil second and ask questions when you feel like it.


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> Hii!
> 
> Jungian Cognitive Functions. It's basically the original idea of functions which takes them one at a time as a model of cognition (ie. Ne-F) , rahter than the MBTI which takes the whole thing and makes it into a 'Personality' with behavior traits.
> 
> IEE/IEE etc.. is socionics. Socionics is mostly over my head, because it uses the same functions and applies them differently and I haven't had time to navigate each application.. but there's a whole system of how each one functions in your psyche based on its place in the lineup. Each type has an order that includes all 8 functions and their place.


I haven't delved much into socionics either, aside from looking up the type people told me I was based on the questionnaire. It was interesting, but I didn't relate to the explanation entirely. Idk. Maybe I'm socionics mistyped.


----------



## Sina

@_Doll_

I _kinda sorta_ remember you...maybe.  LOL *hug*  Great to have you back! 

I see your typing as correct, from tritype ordering to instincts. For giggles, I could see a 9w8 fix. We've had that discussion right? What's your argument against a 9w8 fix. Remind me. <3

Also, I am attention whoring myself so 3 vs 7 for my core (realized I lack the compulsive productivity of 3 despite my successes considering it's very easy for me to take breaks and relax with persistence being more of an uphill battle than curbing the compulsive productivity again regardless of how hard I've worked to acquire what I want because that was best for my circumstances and my aims], fear deprivation viscerally [and not just material deprivation which is SP] and so on). If you have any comments now or later, feel free to share. You were so very insightful on my thread. No pressure, though. Hell, I don't contemplate my own type for long stretches lol. I have a bit of a backlog for this thread, going back to @_Ace Face_ and Som's posts. I am looking forward to catching up on that. :3

Let me know what you think re: your gut fix. As for JCF, hmm I don't type much in that typology system but ENFP sounds about right. You do seem Ne-Fi.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Doll_
> 
> I _kinda sorta_ remember you...maybe.  LOL *hug*  Great to have you back!
> 
> I see your typing as correct, from tritype ordering to instincts. For giggles, I could see a 9w8 fix. We've had that discussion right? What's your argument against a 9w8 fix. Remind me. <3
> 
> Also, I am attention whoring myself so 3 vs 7 for my core (realized I lack the compulsive productivity of 3 despite my successes considering it's very easy for me to take breaks and relax with persistence being more of an uphill battle than curbing the compulsive productivity again regardless of how hard I've worked to acquire what I want because that was best for my circumstances and my aims], fear deprivation viscerally [and not just material deprivation which is SP] and so on). If you have any comments now or later, feel free to share. You were so very insightful on my thread. No pressure, though. Hell, I don't contemplate my own type for long stretches lol. I have a bit of a backlog for this thread, going back to @_Ace Face_ and Som's posts. I am looking forward to catching up on that. :3
> 
> Let me know what you think re: your gut fix. As for JCF, hmm I don't type much in that typology system but ENFP sounds about right. You do seem Ne-Fi.


Are you seriously an 8? Or are you still playing dress-up with different types?


----------



## Sina

The Scorched Earth said:


> Are you seriously an 8? Or are you still playing dress-up with different types?


Dress up with different type "labels". :kitteh: The only "types" I've ever considered for my core have been the 3 ids.

As for being an 8, why yes, I am an _INFP 8w7_ tonite. <3 ESTP 4w3 from last week was more enjoyable, however. Que..lastima..*sighs*


----------



## Sixty Nein

I can't beat ESTP 4, but INTJ 2 is like...3rd place right?


----------



## Nobleheart

Sixty Nein said:


> I can't beat ESTP 4, but INTJ 2 is like...3rd place right?


INFJ 3 being 2nd?


----------



## Sixty Nein

Nobleheart said:


> INFJ 3 being 2nd?


That's actually quite believable. I'd say those are more common than what is normally thought up.


----------



## Nobleheart

Sixty Nein said:


> That's actually quite believable. I'd say those are more common than what is normally thought up.


I'm sure it's possible, but it would take a _lot_ of atypical influences to create Id based defense mechanisms in an INFJ child. That being the case, I would assume 8's Reactivity and 7's Frustration triad to be more likely matches for the sorts of pressures that would cause an Id based motivation set in an INFJ, as the INFJ would have to be pushed very far into their ESTP shadow. 3's Id + Competence just seems to defy the entire thought process of INFJ when dealing with stressors.

I started a poll about INFJ Enneagram types, and the end result seems to support this assumption.

But, I could be wrong.


----------



## Bricolage

Nobleheart said:


> I'm sure it's possible, but it would take a _lot_ of atypical influences to create Id based defense mechanisms in an INFJ child.


Is there such a thing? I've heard young children are INXJ with undifferentiated judging functions. Same with ENXP, etc. An an object relations theory, on the other hand, enneagram type is indeed established early.


----------



## Nobleheart

Bricolage said:


> Is there such a thing? I've heard young children are INXJ with undifferentiated judging functions. Same with ENXP, etc. An an object relations theory, on the other hand, enneagram type is indeed established early.


The INJ, ENP, EFJ, ITP, ESP, etc. come from the school of thought that the functions develop according to use. This means that kids under 5 or so will most strongly be exhibiting their dominant function. Once the dominant function has established its own efficiency, the auxiliary function 'fills in' by age 10 or 12. The reason teenagers tend to be so problematic is that their tertiary functions tend to fill in during those years, while the inferior functions fill in during the college years (creating a lot of indecision about choice of major for some students). 

The end result is not that we don't have these functions, but that they're difficult to 'see' until they develop well enough. An INJ child is either an INFJ or an INTJ from birth as far as we can tell. The distinction is made because until age 5-12, it is difficult to determine which it will end up being. 

However, this is exactly what I was referring to. At the age when Enneatypes 'chrysalis', the cognitive functions are essentially going to be set up as a dominant function with faint hints of an auxiliary function, and even less capacity with the tertiary. Therefore, an INFJ child would be operating on an Ni filter, with a hint of Fe/Ti to back it up. There's very little Id in that equation. 

Conversely, an INTJ child be operating on an Ni filter, with a hint of Te/Fi to back it up. With Fi roughly as strong as Te at that point, an Id type could more easily develop, especially an 8 since Te's need to control and delegate could align with, and Ni is inherently reactive. An INTJ child _could _ develop into a 3 as Te's need to be competent could also align with an Fi based drive to be admired. However, 7 is very unlikely as it would take pressure to create an Id based INJ child, and that is counter to 7's compliment.

That said, I know an INTJ 7. He's an interesting guy. So, any combination of MBTI/Enneagram is certainly possible. Some are just much less likely than others.


----------



## Bricolage

Nobleheart said:


> However, this is exactly what I was referring to. At the age when Enneatypes 'chrysalis', the cognitive functions are essentially going to be set up as a dominant function with faint hints of an auxiliary function, and even less capacity with the tertiary. Therefore, an INFJ child would be operating on an Ni filter, with a hint of Fe/Ti to back it up. There's very little Id in that equation.


I'll go along with that, except that Ni-Se make a function pair and there's "id" in Se.


----------



## Nobleheart

Bricolage said:


> I'll go along with that, except that Ni-Se make a function pair and there's "id" in Se.


Yes, but in INJ kids around chrysalis age, the Se is_ extremely _subconscious, which is why I think INJ kids are very unlikely to be pushed into using it enough to wrap their defense mechanisms around it. With INTJ kids, they've got Te/Fi Id to fall back on if pressed. Fe leans more Superego. 

Again, I'm not saying any given combination is impossible. Just varying degrees of likely based on how much external pressure would be required at an early age to create them vs. default inclinations based on our cognitive filters. For example, that poll I made implies that the default for INFJ is Ego + Reactive + 369 Triad, which actually isn't a type. Therefore, 4, 6, 5, and 9 are the most common types for INFJs, with the other types most likely having proportionate degrees of atypical stressors in their early childhoods.

To extrapolate this, ENP kids tend to naturally lean toward Id types, with the Superego types being the least common.

I would assume that any JCF type would have their own set of default Enneagram types based on the sorts of defense mechanisms that the JCF filters, which are evidenced before the chrysalis, and then from there the other types would require varying degrees of atypical events in early development. 

Or in other words, this is my assumed model for how we end up at our type combos. JCF = Nature. Enneatype = Nurture.


----------



## Paradigm

Trying to definitively correlate CFs to Enneagram types/triads just leads to misconceptions, mistypings, and pointless conversations. There is nothing "anti-id" about Ni. And frankly, I'd even wager 3 is among the most common types for INxJs -- or, at least, certainly not a weird combination.

@_Nobleheart_ and everyone else

Edit: I think this idea that 4 and 5 are super common for INFJs is a bit funny, too; I've seen a ton of people saying that over the years. How type 1 and 2 never make that list is hilarious.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Nonsense said:


> Tsk, you should know by now that everyone is a 6, though. :tongue:


Natch, only 80% are 6s; the rest are all 9s. Everyone who types differently is either delusional or pretending.

:wink:


----------



## Nobleheart

Paradigm said:


> Trying to definitively correlate CFs to Enneagram types/triads just leads to misconceptions, mistypings, and pointless conversations. There is nothing "anti-id" about Ni. And frankly, I'd even wager 3 is among the most common types for INxJs -- or, at least, certainly not a weird combination.
> 
> @_Nobleheart_ and everyone else
> 
> Edit: I think this idea that 4 and 5 are super common for INFJs is a bit funny, too; I've seen a ton of people saying that over the years. How type 1 and 2 never make that list is hilarious.


Polling data seems to disagree, both on 4 and 5 not being common and 1 and 2 not making the list.

4, 5, and 6 topped the list, with 9, 1, and 2 coming in with respectable showings. 

Even if you consider that 4's and 5's would be more likely on these sorts of forums due to the subject matter, that doesn't account for the low number of 4's and 5's in other MBTI types. 

Correlation appears valid. The only thing open for debate is why, or how badly any given type combo is mistyped.


----------



## Paradigm

Nobleheart said:


> Polling data seems to disagree, both on 4 and 5 not being common and 1 and 2 not making the list.
> 
> 4, 5, and 6 topped the list, with 9, 1, and 2 coming in with respectable showings.
> 
> Even if you consider that 4's and 5's would be more likely on these sorts of forums due to the subject matter, that doesn't account for the low number of 4's and 5's in other MBTI types.
> 
> Correlation appears valid. The only thing open for debate is why, or how badly any given type combo is mistyped.


No, I just think that a poll probably consisting of people who rely on test results, with a healthy dose of the Forer effect and confirmation bias, is going to return incredibly inaccurate results. So your poll means nothing to me, really.


----------



## Nobleheart

Paradigm said:


> No, I just think that a poll probably consisting of people who rely on test results, with a healthy dose of the Forer effect and confirmation bias, is going to return incredibly inaccurate results. So your poll means nothing to me, really.


You're making a lot of assumptions to support your stance, and in doing so invalidating it.


----------



## Paradigm

Nobleheart said:


> You're making a lot of assumptions to support your stance, and in doing so invalidating it.


Lol k

Back at you *thumbs up*
speaking of confirmation bias....


----------



## Nobleheart

Paradigm said:


> Lol k
> 
> Back at you *thumbs up*


Had a feeling you'd opt for the "I know you are but what am I?" defense.

I'm assuming that the data is _ballpark_ accurate, and based my opinion on the findings. 

You're assuming that the bulk of the responders are "people who rely on test results, with a healthy dose of the Forer effect and confirmation bias". That's massively dismissive of the people on this forum who are generally farther along in the process of self discovery than parroting test scores. You're essentially refuting my evidence with no evidence of your own except that you don't want to agree with it. I think a simple "nuh-uh" would have been about as effective, and certainly as intelligent.


----------



## Paradigm

Nobleheart said:


> Had a feeling you'd opt for the "I know you are but what am I?" defense.
> 
> I'm assuming that the data is _ballpark_ accurate, and based my opinion on the findings.
> 
> You're assuming that the bulk of the responders are "people who rely on test results, with a healthy dose of the Forer effect and confirmation bias". That's massively dismissive of the people on this forum who are generally farther along in the process of self discovery than parroting test scores. You're essentially refuting my evidence with no evidence of your own except that you don't want to agree with it. I think a simple "nuh-uh" would have been about as effective, and certainly as intelligent.


Because, you know, not giving the reason for your "invalidation" before having to be provoked was totally pro debating skills, too.

The people on PerC are not further along in their self-actualization. Half of them simply want to be patted on the head and be assured that they're not weird while gushing about how weird they are. The people who type as INxx are frequently part of this population; you can tell by simply suggesting they might be an extrovert or sensor and watching the repeated denial complete with stereotypes that typically follows (instead of seriously weighing the option). Further, no one who is in their teens or early 20s can ever be accurately called "self aware," given that they're largely still trying to figure _everything else_ out. The brain doesn't even stop developing until our 20s.

As for not believing their claims? No, I tend to disbelieve people who don't read about other types, spend ten minutes reading a description, and start talking about how they're totally a 4 because no one understands them and they like music/art. (Or in NT land, how they're totally a 5 because omg what are emotions.) Oh, or the way how somehow 50% of PerC is magically 4/5 because clearly all the introverts are 4/5/9 and there's no extroverts (or sensors) on the internet.

These are all repeated things that happen throughout the forum. They are noted and expected habits. To deny this is willful ignorance.

Now, hey, I'm not saying it's bad to be mistyped, to use tests. But the Enneagram requires more than that; most people require reading actual books over the course of months (if not years). And I rarely see the required effort from people (in the Keirsey forums especially). So yeah, I'm going to act as if most of their claims are inaccurate. I don't care if they want to type as such, but I'm sure as hell not going to believe them, let alone use their thirty-second self-typing as "data" for any conclusions.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Paradigm said:


> Further, no one who is in their teens or early 20s can ever be accurately called "self aware," given that they're largely still trying to figure _everything else_ out.


Just want to nitpick this point, because I _seriously disagree with it_. Those in their teens and early 20s can accurately be said to be trying to figure a good quantity of stuff out, but that _includes_ really important things such as "what do I want to do with my life?" (they kind of have to, at that point, actually, because that age range is the one where the designated opportunity to acquire the skills for such things is), and "what weaknesses do I have in dealing with the world that I need to shore up if I want to succeed?"

Both of those things require some understanding of the self to answer. And someone that started asking those questions at 16 is going to have quite a few answers by 18-20. And some people ask them earlier. 



> The brain doesn't even stop developing until our 20s.


The ADHD brain is _never_ as developed as a normal one. Should we invalidate adults with ADHD similarly till they medicate?


----------



## mimesis

Nobleheart said:


> Had a feeling you'd opt for the "I know you are but what am I?" defense.
> 
> I'm assuming that the data is _ballpark_ accurate, and based my opinion on the findings.
> 
> You're assuming that the bulk of the responders are "people who rely on test results, with a healthy dose of the Forer effect and confirmation bias". That's massively dismissive of the people on this forum who are generally farther along in the process of self discovery than parroting test scores. You're essentially refuting my evidence with no evidence of your own except that you don't want to agree with it. I think a simple "nuh-uh" would have been about as effective, and certainly as intelligent.


What bothers me more is the idiosyncratic mashup of JCF, MBTI, Freud, Enneagram, and lingo like

"Id based defense mechanism"
"defense mechanisms wrapped around"
"the sort of defense mechanisms that JCF filters"
"the auxillary function fills in by the age of 12"
"Fe is Superego"
"Se (Id) is extremely subconscious" 

Non of which use the term subconscious though.



Freud said:


> “"If someone talks of subconsciousness, I cannot tell whether he means the term topographically – to indicate something lying in the mind beneath consciousness – or qualitatively – to indicate another consciousness, a subterranean one, as it were. He is probably not clear about any of it. The only trustworthy antithesis is between conscious and unconscious."


Let alone "extremely" subconscious. 
It's hard to find logical consistency in what you say. It's rhetorical, at best symbolic, but it strikes me as cherrypicking, whatever confirms the assumptions. Why wouldn't Fi be Superego ("the idealistic principle")? Where did you read the auxillary fills in at 14? And defense mechanisms...filtered? Wrapped around? Id Based?


----------



## Doll

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Doll_
> 
> 
> I _kinda sorta_ remember you...maybe.  LOL *hug*  Great to have you back!



*HUGS* I'm ready to be back for a bit! & have lively enneagram discussion again.




> I see your typing as correct, from tritype ordering to instincts. For giggles, I could see a 9w8 fix. We've had that discussion right? What's your argument against a 9w8 fix. Remind me. <3



Uhhh idk that I had a good argument against it, tbh. Reading over the descriptions, there's a lot about 9w8s I relate to as far as being willful yet willing to make allies of enemies once the crisis has passed, being extremely forceful when called for, ect. 9 has always been a harder type for me to relate to because I don't like awkwardness, but I'm also not willing to compromise in order to have it. So 9w8 makes more sense in that regard. I remember seriously considering this as a fix at one point, but for some reason abandoned it. Maybe I liked the more polished and less gritty image of a 9w1. But what I relate to in the w1 is consistent with integrating toward a 1 as a 4, so it's hard to separate the two. Considering I interacted a lot with you (and also with @_Animal_) on this forum, I'd be interested to know what you both thought about it. Both my core fixes I'm pretty sure about, it's the wings that occasionally throw me off.




> Also, I am attention whoring myself so 3 vs 7 for my core (realized I lack the compulsive productivity of 3 despite my successes considering it's very easy for me to take breaks and relax with persistence being more of an uphill battle than curbing the compulsive productivity again regardless of how hard I've worked to acquire what I want because that was best for my circumstances and my aims], fear deprivation viscerally [and not just material deprivation which is SP] and so on). If you have any comments now or later, feel free to share. You were so very insightful on my thread. No pressure, though. Hell, I don't contemplate my own type for long stretches lol. I have a bit of a backlog for this thread, going back to @_Ace Face_ and Som's posts. I am looking forward to catching up on that. :3
> 
> 
> Let me know what you think re: your gut fix. As for JCF, hmm I don't type much in that typology system but ENFP sounds about right. You do seem Ne-Fi.



Ohhhh the 7 comes into play!!! I want to take my time with this one, let me see.


I definitely have observed strong 7 influences in you. However, there is a fluidity in your nature that inevitably pulls me back to the 3. Looking back on an old survey you did way back when, there's a consistency throughout it, "I want to be seen as", "I want people to look at me as", that made me ultimately consider you as an image type. 3s are so, so difficult to pin down because (at least in my experience) they can be seen and see themselves as so many different types. They have a lot of faucets and, imo, are one of the more multi-faceted types of the enneagram. However, you also have a lot of different visions for the future and you've pointed out that you've been unable to focus them into actual realities. I see a 7's vision a lot like that: "I want this, I want that, I want to do this, I want to do that" but then aren't able to follow through. Your thread is very world-hungry, wanting to experience life for all it has to offer, and yet you put opportunities and success above pleasure and comfort. I think 3s and 7s are both optimistic, or can be, so that's a shared trait that muddles the waters even more.


Becoming a nobody is something you fear - however, you want to succeed so you can indulge. What's more important, the indulgence or the success? How people see you, or self-pleasure and writing off whoever might judge you for it? Interpersonal relationships and connections, or flitting from activity to activity and not getting bored? Because at the end of the day, you seem to want someone to see you for who you truly are, not for whatever wealth or success you've gathered. Both types WANT success, but 7s want it for the material things it brings, while 3s want it for the recognition. 7s reveal in experience and sensation, whereas 3s might surround themselves with powerful and influential people. 3s would be the popular kid in school and achieving status through connections, while 7s would know the coolest clothes to get and the best places to hang out. 3s would buy a boat and be like "OMG LOOK HOW IMPORTANT I AM I BOUGHT I BOAT LOOK" while 7s would enjoy their boat. Both 7s and 3s appear narcissistic, but 7s aren't really narcissistic… they're selfish, but not self-glorified. 7s are escapists, 3s are realists who greatly fear the possibility of failure. 7s, I think, are actually extremely insecure at their core. Their constant attempt to seek that indulgence is just a way to keep their anxiety at bay and to distract themselves from their shortcomings and emotional lows. 3s aren't insecure. They constantly fight, fight, fight against what stands in their way. I've always seen you more like that: a secure fighter who is smooth, collected, and knows how to navigate PerC like a pro.


7s are also head types, and while they are able to navigate the social realm for their purposes, I feel like they would care less about others and others' reactions. I think they can be almost careless, reckless and flippant, and you seem to be a structured, purposeful person when it comes to interacting with people on the forum - unless they anger you, then all beware.  I've seen you be flippant, but even when you are it seems to be for a valid, thoughtful reason. You don't seem to do anything thoughtlessly. You also want to appear smooth and in control at times, so - again - it's that image thing that brings me back to 3. 


Uhh, I kind of rambled.  Ultimately for you I see more of a 3 as your core, with a STRONG 7 fix.

EDIT: WTF my whole post disappeared. It's back.


----------



## Doll

double post perc fail


----------



## Paradigm

Chained Divinity said:


> Just want to nitpick this point, because I _seriously disagree with it_.


It was 7am and I hadn't slept, so I defaulted to my normal way of talking, which involves exaggeration. The point still stands even if it's not precise. Chill your Ti


----------



## Nobleheart

mimesis said:


> What bothers me more is the idiosyncratic mashup of JCF, MBTI, Freud, Enneagram, and lingo like...


These two systems are rather independent from one another. One attempts to explain how we think. The other attempts to explain why we are motivated. Overlapping two personality systems that are not synonymous is a logical extension. 

Next, there is no mention of subconscious because both systems are built on subconscious elements. The primary reason for these systems is to make conscious what our subconscious is doing in our conscious.



Paradigm said:


> It was 7am and I hadn't slept, so I defaulted to my normal way of talking, which involves exaggeration.


This ^ I will never fault. Do it myself frequently. 



Paradigm said:


> The point still stands even if it's not precise.


Ah yes, the "I am right, even if I can't prove it, because I am right" defense. Good default setting. This tactic of debate is also working well for Young Earth Creationists. ;-)

Between that and your "invalidate the opposition" tactics, it's as if you've got nothing substantial to offer other than debate itself. 



Paradigm said:


> Chill your Ti


Chill your Te. That's what started this derail. Most importantly, CD's Ti was correct, while your Te was jabbing at validating a baseless opinion.


----------



## Paradigm

Nobleheart said:


> Ah yes, the "I am right, even if I can't prove it, because I am right" defense. Good default setting. This tactic of debate is also working well for Young Earth Creationists. ;-)
> 
> Chill your Te. That's what started this derail. Most importantly, that Ti was correct, while your Te was jabbing at validating a baseless opinion.


1. You're not even defining which point of mine you're trying to invalidate here, going so far as to apparently ignore my previous reply.

2. You're resorting to ad hominems after I've explained my point of view.

3. I'm not going to link you to the massive amounts of threads/posts I've seen over the course of 4 years that prove my point, especially when there's multiple threads pointing out similar habits of PerC users and the topic pops up relatively often.


----------



## Nobleheart

So, in other words, because you can validate any manner of your skepticism, your skepticism automatically trumps data that was already considered ballpark?

Well, I can't say I've never taken that stance. 

Okay, I'm over my indignance. I'll stop swinging now.

Six hug?


----------



## Paradigm

Nobleheart said:


> Okay, I'm over my indignance. I'll stop swinging now.
> Six hug?


No thanks. This entire "conversation" just proved to me that I was right in putting you on my ignore list two weeks ago. People who try to intentionally provoke, discredit, and condescend annoy me.

Edit: Or more accurately, "_make a habit of_ provoking..."


----------



## Nobleheart

Paradigm said:


> People who try to intentionally provoke, discredit, and condescend annoy me.


Ironic.


----------



## Ace Face

Paradigm said:


> No thanks. This entire "conversation" just proved to me that I was right in putting you on my ignore list two weeks ago. People who try to intentionally provoke, discredit, and condescend annoy me.












Anyways, Paradigm, I've been meaning to ask you if you have an opinion on my type


----------



## Paradigm

Ace Face said:


> Anyways, Paradigm, I've been meaning to ask you if you have an opinion on my type


I'm going to be away from my computer for a bit now, but would you mind linking me to some posts that might help me form more of an opinion? I seem to remember you going between CP 6w7 or 7w6?


----------



## Sina

@_Doll_

YAY! We are so going to make the most of Ennea-play time! roud:
Thanks a lot for taking the time to elaborate on your reasoning. I am on, what I call, SP energy conservation mode lol these days so my replies take can take a few days to a few weeks XD. Busy and stuffs. I will get to your reply, and I look forward to it.

Briefly re: 9w8 fix:- I see more of the sustained tenacity of the 8 wing in you. It brings more of a momentum as opposed to the resignation and detachment of the 9w1 influence (From fix). Moreover, I've seen you in conflicts, and unlike a 9w1 fixer, you are not only able to engage it longer and more robustly, you also don't show much desire to "diffuse" the situation (getting your point across is more of your priority) or zone out/ numb yourself to it. You're easy going, and yet you have a force to you that doesn't gel with a 9w1 fix. You don't have the sharper more superego influenced self criticism, resentment (even if filtered from the core) arising from being instinctively in tune with the mismatch between reality and how it should be, and self-justification of a 1 fixer. You also don't exhibit the unconsciously boundary pushing, naturally expansive and gut-reactive influence of the 8 fixer. Although, I do see the easy going and still comfortable, direct and straightforward self-assertion of a 9w8 fixer minus the numbing/avoidance of a 9w1 fix as detailed above. I get the line to 1/1 influence point, but as a core 4, you already have a line to 1. So, any 1 influence in there is well explained by the core, and if you want to stretch it further, even the 7w6 fix having the 1 connection. So, I don't buy 9w1 for your gut fix.

p.s. I agree with @_Paradigm_. Like her, I am no novice to how typings take place on this forum. Hell, I co-created the questionnaire and got the ball rolling here. I've read several hundreds of these over the course of nearly 3 years. I've seen tons of Enneagram discussions, typing and otherwise given how active I've been on this sub-forum. And, I definitely take the self-typings of a lot of people (and yes dem allegedly notorious 6s as well , considering I've seen a couple of 3s,7s, one or two 4s etc. mistype at 6) with a fuckin handful of salt. This wasn't the case when I had just joined the forum and was much more into taking people's word on their self-typings etc.

I've realized that far too many people here, particularly the younger crowd (with a few notable exceptions), shows a much stronger bent towards slapping on a label to validate pre-existing self image. There's also the status-typing deal where consciously or unconsciously a lot of people, mostly younger but also some older ones thrown in, gravitate towards 4/5/8, leading to mistypings. Mind you, this isn't because these types are "rare". Fuck that noise. :3 It's because these types are needlessly glorified and, more importantly, poorly understood. The lack of understanding fuels the dumb status-typing games, but it also impedes the more mature members, who aren't interested in bloating up their egos, and causes them to mistype due to misinformation. The other desirable types are 3 and 7, because they are described as successful, gregarious, assertive, badass and what not. They attract both tryhards and others like the more assertive superego types, for instance, who have valid reasons for identifying with Id types. Therefore, we're seeing some aggressive as well as assertive superego types mistyping at 3 and 7, considering these types (esp So 2 which can look like 8, Sx 1, 2 and Sx 6 which can seem very ID or 8) can mimic the outward impression of Id types. Also, primary types are very poorly understood and, with the exception of 3, plainly underrated. So, unless I know an individual to be open-minded, intelligent, resourceful and committed to truly learning the Enneagram and improving their self-awareness and/or see evidence over time of the self-proclaimed type, I am unlikely to just take their word for it. Period. So, fuck it if it sounds 'invalidating', but these polls are hardly illuminating especially given the strong reporting bias, to say the least.


----------



## Doll

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Doll_
> 
> YAY! We are so going to make the most of Ennea-play time! roud:
> Thanks a lot for taking the time to elaborate on your reasoning. I am on, what I call, SP energy conservation mode lol these days so my replies take can take a few days to a few weeks XD. Busy and stuffs. I will get to your reply, and I look forward to it.


Me too!! Take your time. I've been away for so long that just looking back on old pasts makes me feel nostalgic and excited to talk personality typing AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE alluvasudden. 



> Briefly re: 9w8 fix:- I see more of the sustained tenacity of the 8 wing in you. It brings more of a momentum as opposed to the resignation and detachment of the 9w1 influence (From fix). Moreover, I've seen you in conflicts, and unlike a 9w1 fixer, you are not only able to engage it longer and more robustly, you also don't show much desire to "diffuse" the situation (getting your point across is more of your priority) or zone out/ numb yourself to it.


That's very true. I think "detached" is probably one of the least things I'm ever able to me no matter what the situation. Recently I had to facilitate a "stern discussion" and was asked to do it because the other people involved were either TOO aggressive (a 1w2) or not aggressive enough (a core 9w8, but ultimately not willing to get engaged). I tried to be as objective as possible, but was told later that I hammered in the point involving myself a little too repetitively. It pissed me off and I wanted to get my point across that it needed to stop (basically, a co-worker I indirectly supervise started a rumor that I was having an affair with my boss b/c apparently I am schmexy. No j/k, but it was for stupid reasons).



> You're easy going, and yet you have a force to you that doesn't gel with a 9w1 fix. You don't have the sharper more superego influenced self criticism, resentment (even if filtered from the core) arising from being instinctively in tune with the mismatch between reality and how it should be, and self-justification of a 1 fixer. You also don't exhibit the unconsciously boundary pushing, naturally expansive and gut-reactive influence of the 8 fixer. Although, I do see the easy going and still comfortable, direct and straightforward self-assertion of a 9w8 fixer minus the numbing/avoidance of a 9w1 fix as detailed above. I get the line to 1/1 influence point, but as a core 4, you already have a line to 1. So, any 1 influence in there is well explained by the core, and if you want to stretch it further, even the 7w6 fix having the 1 connection. So, I don't buy 9w1 for your gut fix.


Yes. I think the self-criticism for me is easily confused with self-devaluation/self-demeaning behavior that's associated with the core 4 rather than any influence from 1. I feel confident and then I don't, special and then regrettably ordinary, /insert cliche self-pitying term here, but then suddenly I'm on cloud 9 and things are wonderful and I feel confident and unique and powerfully emboldened by possibility. 



> p.s. I agree with @_Paradigm_. Like her, I am no novice to how typings take place on this forum. Hell, I co-created the questionnaire and got the ball rolling here. I've read several hundreds of these over the course of nearly 3 years. I've seen tons of Enneagram discussions, typing and otherwise given how active I've been on this sub-forum. And, I definitely take the self-typings of a lot of people (and yes dem allegedly notorious 6s as well , considering I've seen a couple of 3s,7s, one or two 4s etc. mistype at 6) with a fuckin handful of salt. This wasn't the case when I had just joined the forum and was much more into taking people's word on their self-typings etc.


Uh yeah, definitely. When I used to be more active over in the TYPE ME forum, people often came in with a pre-constructed notion of what their type was and threw out buzzwords, without realizing that it's very easy to read between the lines. Sometimes I don't think it's a conscious thing, I think it's an image thing, and then wonder if image types do this more than non-image types and should I _consider this_ when I help them type? But that adds an entirely new level of typing that I don't even. I don't. No. I don't know. I'm sure all types do it to some extent. Not even the most detached 5 could be entirely uninfluenced by internal biases and needs/wants... I would think... although I could be wrong. Who really knows. Either way, I'm always happy interacting with an open-minded person willing to consider a type other than the first one they landed on when introduced to the enneagram. At the end of the day being right or wrong doesn't really matter, and someone else's mistyping isn't my business nor do I care (I'll tell myself this), but it still irks my little heart to see all the melancholia going on in the 4 forum. As if 4s can never just have a good day.



> I've realized that far too many people here, particularly the younger crowd (with a few notable exceptions), shows a much stronger bent towards slapping on a label to validate pre-existing self image. There's also the status-typing deal where consciously or unconsciously a lot of people, mostly younger but also some older ones thrown in, gravitate towards 4/5/8, leading to mistypings. Mind you, this isn't because these types are "rare". Fuck that noise. :3


Isn't 4 the most common type for women? Or at least the second? I remember seeing that somewhere, although I can't put up the source so oh well no one quote me on it. Status yes. A sense of wanting to belong to a certain crowd can even be enough to influence someone toward a particular typing. I've noticed this.



> It's because these types are needlessly glorified and, more importantly, poorly understood.


Ugh, yes.



> The lack of understanding fuels the dumb status-typing games, but it also impedes the more mature members, who aren't interested in bloating up their egos, and causes them to mistype due to misinformation. The other desirable types are 3 and 7, because they are described as successful, gregarious, assertive, badass and what not.


Passive types, or types that _are seen_ as passive-aggressive (phobic 6s), are viewed so negatively in the forums, 4s and 5s being the exception because 5s are "intelligent" and 4s are "artists", notwithstanding the fact that geniuses exist in other types and artists abound no matter where you look. And not like, put myself down in a 4ish way or whatever, but my art is literally for shit. I'll be that artist who is appreciated in like 500 years when I'm already dead and it won't even matter anymore.



> They attract both tryhards and others like the more assertive superego types, for instance, who have valid reasons for identifying with Id types. Therefore, we're seeing some aggressive as well as assertive superego types mistyping at 3 and 7, considering these types (esp So 2 which can look like 8, Sx 1, 2 and Sx 6 which can seem very ID or 8) can mimic the outward impression of Id types. Also, primary types are very poorly understood and, with the exception of 3, plainly underrated. So, unless I know an individual to be open-minded, intelligent, resourceful and committed to truly learning the Enneagram and improving their self-awareness and/or see evidence over time of the self-proclaimed type, I am unlikely to just take their word for it. Period. So, fuck it if it sounds 'invalidating', but these polls are hardly illuminating especially given the strong reporting bias, to say the least.


One of the most aggressive women I know is an SX-first 1, and omg. Put us in a room together and I look like a fucking nun. We have a blast, but she's extremely outward-energy-pushing and it can be off-putting to a lot of people. NO TYPE should be underestimated or underrated or told that they can't be something because of x and y. It's silly and counterproductive to growth and development. Obviously exceptions exist and someone who self-types off the bat is totally right (lol i self-typed as a 9 lol everyone laugh at me lol), but I think that's rare. It's a complicated system and there are so many things to consider. I don't even like bringing in fixes when I'm first discussing someone's type with them. 

...Anyway, yes. I couldn't thank the post enough so I had to respond to it.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

@Paradigm

I'm still actually very interested in why you think my image fix is either 2w3 or 3w2, by the way. XD You never _did_ answer that...


----------



## Paradigm

Chained Divinity said:


> @_Paradigm_
> 
> I'm still actually very interested in why you think my image fix is either 2w3 or 3w2, by the way. XD You never _did_ answer that...


Oh, right. Sorry. I vaguely remember thinking that tritype wasn't as important for you at the time, but really I just suck at replying to PMs. 

It was the way you wanted to be a "hero," and how you wanted a very specific image and fulfillment in regards to that goal. It read to me as being far more 2w3/3w2, as these types will want to differentiate themselves from the crowd -- a 2 takes pride in their compassion, and a 3 wants to be the best at something. I honestly don't recall why you settled on 4w3 (if you'd like to remind me, I'm all ears), but being "unique" isn't really 4-only.


----------



## Paradigm

@Doll - Glad to see you're back  You're a good typer and poster 'round these parts.


----------



## Doll

Paradigm said:


> @_Doll_ - Glad to see you're back  You're a good typer and poster 'round these parts.


I'm glad to be back! I missed you guys and these discussions!


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Paradigm said:


> Oh, right. Sorry. I vaguely remember thinking that tritype wasn't as important for you at the time, but really I just suck at replying to PMs.
> 
> It was the way you wanted to be a "hero," and how you wanted a very specific image and fulfillment in regards to that goal. It read to me as being far more 2w3/3w2, as these types will want to differentiate themselves from the crowd -- a 2 takes pride in their compassion, and a 3 wants to be the best at something. I honestly don't recall why you settled on 4w3 (if you'd like to remind me, I'm all ears), but being "unique" isn't really 4-only.


Well, it's a couple things, really. Partially I think a misinterpretation on my part, but partially not. 

The core fear of the 4 is stated to be "a loss of personal identity or personal significance", and that goal of mine, that thing I've been wanting to do, very much fit the technical definition of a personal significance, in a "my legacy etched into history" sort of way. 

Now, it seems like that might not be as much a 4 thing as I thought, _but_, at the same time, there's two other aspects:

First of all, I'm terrified of losing that goal, principally because without it I fear I'll become just another mundane human being in the sea of them (which is actually kind of 3-like, now that I think of it).
Second of all, I've thought about, in the past, how precisely I want to touch lives, and I realized I have an aversion to doing it in certain ways that I view as "mundane"--corporate-style life-touching really bothers me for some reason, as I feel like I'm not escaping the "crowd", or really (and they're seriously not horrible) the lifestyle of my family. So...


----------



## Doll

Chained Divinity said:


> Well, it's a couple things, really. Partially I think a misinterpretation on my part, but partially not.
> 
> The core fear of the 4 is stated to be "a loss of personal identity or personal significance", and that goal of mine, that thing I've been wanting to do, very much fit the technical definition of a personal significance, in a "my legacy etched into history" sort of way.
> 
> Now, it seems like that might not be as much a 4 thing as I thought, _but_, at the same time, there's two other aspects:
> 
> First of all, I'm terrified of losing that goal, principally because without it I fear I'll become just another mundane human being in the sea of them (which is actually kind of 3-like, now that I think of it).
> Second of all, I've thought about, in the past, how precisely I want to touch lives, and I realized I have an aversion to doing it in certain ways that I view as "mundane"--corporate-style life-touching really bothers me for some reason, as I feel like I'm not escaping the "crowd", or really (and they're seriously not horrible) the lifestyle of my family. So...


Do you have an aversion to it because it is mundane and too "corporate", or because you want to break away from what you know? I think it's a natural human inclination to not be like your family, or to otherwise assert yourself in a way that's separate from that familial unit and be your own person. The fact that your main influence seems to be to touch lives and not to showcase your _self_ is telling. That is more 2ish. You want a legacy, which is 3ish. There isn't any talk of self-expression, self-revelation, self-renewal or transformation - it isn't about the self so much as it is about others and expressing that need uniquely. That tendency is found in all three image types. I see more of a 2w3 or even a 3w2, although the latter seems less likely.


----------



## mimesis

Nobleheart said:


> Ah yes, the "I am right, even if I can't prove it, because I am right" defense. Good default setting. This tactic of debate is also working well for Young Earth Creationists.


See? This is rhetoric, not logic, or at least aka association fallacy. 

Your logical extension of two systems is also based on a few arbitrary, rather superficial associatons, while permitting yourself a flexible range of convenience. 

Anyway, carry on.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Doll said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have an aversion to it because it is mundane and too "corporate", or because you want to break away from what you know? I think it's a natural human inclination to not be like your family, or to otherwise assert yourself in a way that's separate from that familial unit and be your own person. The fact that your main influence seems to be to touch lives and not to showcase your _self_ is telling. That is more 2ish. You want a legacy, which is 3ish. There isn't any talk of self-expression, self-revelation, self-renewal or transformation - it isn't about the self so much as it is about others and expressing that need uniquely. That tendency is found in all three image types. I see more of a 2w3 or even a 3w2, although the latter seems less likely.


...hrm. 

To answer your question I have to say both. XD I don't like the mundanity _or_ the fact that I'm still sort of in the lifestyle my Dad possesses. XD 

But yeah, I could live with 2w3. XD Though I feel like the 3 within me, such that it is, is sp 3 more than anything else. :tongue:


----------



## Doll

Chained Divinity said:


> ...hrm.
> 
> To answer your question I have to say both. XD I don't like the mundanity _or_ the fact that I'm still sort of in the lifestyle my Dad possesses. XD
> 
> But yeah, I could live with 2w3. XD Though I feel like the 3 within me, such that it is, is sp 3 more than anything else. :tongue:


 What do you relate to about an sp 3? Self-pres first people fascinate me because I'm an sp-last and I need moar you influence.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Doll said:


> What do you relate to about an sp 3? Self-pres first people fascinate me because I'm an sp-last and I need moar you influence.


It was mostly a joke. I'm not even typing as 3 first, honestly. XD 

The slight portion that _was_ serious basically was me remembering a slight aside on a description of the sp _4_ about how it was different from the other 4 stockings in the way the sp 3 was different from the other 3 stackings--quieter in its acquisition of desires. While I _will_ gleefully show off my talents to people I'm talking to, I don't try to constantly project an aura of competence/talent like the other types were said to be supposed to. I sort of think constantly trying to rub it in everyone's face just makes you look like a dick. XD

Is that particularly an sp 3 thing, in actuality, or...? XD


----------



## Doll

Chained Divinity said:


> It was mostly a joke. I'm not even typing as 3 first, honestly. XD
> 
> The slight portion that _was_ serious basically was me remembering a slight aside on a description of the sp _4_ about how it was different from the other 4 stockings in the way the sp 3 was different from the other 3 stackings--quieter in its acquisition of desires. While I _will_ gleefully show off my talents to people I'm talking to, I don't try to constantly project an aura of competence/talent like the other types were said to be supposed to. I sort of think constantly trying to rub it in everyone's face just makes you look like a dick. XD
> 
> Is that particularly an sp 3 thing, in actuality, or...? XD


Honestly, yes. In 4s, sp-first can be a potentially devastating theme - at least according to some theories. It's a particular destructive instinct for 4s because they are profoundly aware of their own limitations and inevitable demise. I think they can often look like cp 6s in that regard, flirting with disaster. They can be a self-destructive survivalist, a sort of "remember me because I'm going to this crazy thing" mindset. They are very physical. 

Self-preservation firsts respond to perceived threats. A 4's only threat is him or herself, so they turn on themselves, if that makes sense. 

Now put that next to an sp-first 3, more humanitarian, more comfort seeking and concerned about the community as a whole (Jackie O is definitely an SP 3). SP 3s are practical and concerned with personal value. More traditional in the definition of self-preserving.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Doll said:


> Honestly, yes. In 4s, sp-first can be a potentially devastating theme - at least according to some theories. It's a particular destructive instinct for 4s because they are *profoundly aware of their own limitations and inevitable demise. I think they can often look like cp 6s in that regard, flirting with disaster. They can be a self-destructive survivalist, a sort of "remember me because I'm going to this crazy thing" mindset.* They are very physical.


All of the bolded reminds me of me. XD Although I've done a _terrible_ job of seeking disaster _lately_, I've been involved in my fair share of self-destructive relationships. XD

...wait, I might be misinterpreting this. We're not talking the "self-harm for attention" types, are we? Because I'm not that one. 



> Self-preservation firsts respond to perceived threats. A 4's only threat is him or herself, so they turn on themselves, if that makes sense.


...kind of.



> Now put that next to an sp-first 3, more humanitarian, more comfort seeking and concerned about the community as a whole (Jackie O is definitely an SP 3). SP 3s are practical and concerned with personal value. More traditional in the definition of self-preserving.


Hmmmm. Could you define "traditional" for me? XD


----------



## Doll

Chained Divinity said:


> All of the bolded reminds me of me. XD Although I've done a _terrible_ job of seeking disaster _lately_, I've been involved in my fair share of self-destructive relationships. XD
> 
> ...wait, I might be misinterpreting this. We're not talking the "self-harm for attention" types, are we? Because I'm not that one.


Yes. An SP-first 4 would be the type to do something drastic in front of a loved one to "prove" how much they matter, attention-seeking behavior, but again this would be an extremely unhealthy SP 4.

_*People with this theme are often advocates of risk. Can be reckless, court disaster or just flirt lightly with loss. Take chances to stir up emotional intensity, play out melodrama or to get attention. Can have a desire to punish other through hurting themselves. The logic is, "If I die then they'll be sorry and finally appreciate me." Can seem like counterphobic Sixes in their behavior. With a 3 wing this subtype is more flamboyant and makes a show of their daring. With a 5 wing they grow more sullen and self-punishing.*_



> Hmmmm. Could you define "traditional" for me? XD


Basically what everyone thinks of when they think of someone who is SP-first. More aware of comfort and security. An SP-first 3 would be particularly taken with making a difference, more in of a way that their own personal value would feel dependent on it (think of Jay Gatsby, if you've read the book or watched the movie). But idk if you would relate to an SP 3 if you were considering 4, as SP 3 aren't particularly emotional (I'd probably think of them as the least emotional variant in the 3 type, but I could be wrong.)


----------



## Nobleheart

mimesis said:


> See? This is rhetoric, not logic, or at least aka association fallacy.


A logical observation of rhetoric.

An association fallacy would be to assume that because _some_ people mistype, this is evidence that enough people mistype to invalidate data. There is no way to know one way or the other, and many factors must be considered - most notably the assumption of infallibility when asserting that someone else has mistyped. 

Again, we're back to debating opinion and interpretation.



mimesis said:


> Your logical extension of two systems is also based on a few arbitrary, rather superficial associatons, while permitting yourself a flexible range of convenience.


And I have been very upfront about that. My assumptions include a large degree of opinion. I'm more than willing to debate opinion, but any assumptions that one's opinions are facts will be met with rebuttal until such time as there is acknowledgement of the reality that this is a debate of opinion, not fact. 



mimesis said:


> Anyway, carry on.


Why thank you. I shall.


*addressing the rest of the class*

Perhaps you experts should consider using your vast knowledge to educate these poor souls you look down on, rather than taking an elitist stance that is both adversarial and belittling to people who are seeking to understand the very thing you find fault with them not understanding? 

Perhaps you experts should take the approach of the patient educator when your wisdom is refuted, rather than the role of the insistent egoist? 

Enneagram clearly has a difficult learning curve for a lot of people, something that is at minimum acknowledged in your subtext. As the more experienced members, you have an obligation to teach, rather than bash. Be helpful sages, rather than personality type hipsters. 

However, I find it difficult to accept that there is a large enough percentage of people who are wrong about their types to invalidate drastic leanings. The convoluted logic that people tend to mistype as 3, 7, or 8 would actually support my assertion. If that were the case, there would be _more_ Id types in the INFJ poll, not less. If mistyping is an across the board problem, then that doesn't skew the percentages enough to reformat the model I presented aside from possibly re-ordering the top 3 spots which are for all intents tied in this ballpark estimate. 

The assumption of other people being mistyped is an extension of conjecture, rather than an acceptance of unknown variable and gray area. I doubt many of you experts have considered that maybe you're wrong about the people you believe are mistyped? Not taking that into consideration is the fatal flaw in the logic presented in this discussion. Mistyping is likely to go both ways to varying degrees. Accounting for that margin is a requirement. Rejecting it creates a logical fallacy in results. The final outcome is a battle of opinion, rather than an objective analysis of facts that create gray areas rather than pinpoint definitions, especially lacking in an acceptance of the fact that this field is based much more in _opinion_ than fact. 

I've never seen so much conjecture based projection in all my interactions on the internet as I have on the subject of Enneagram on this forum. Ask this forum what your type is, and you're almost guaranteed to get accused of being at least half of the Enneagram. I can't count how many times I've seen myself and other users accused of multiple types. So far, I've had other people _insist_ that I was a 4, 2, 8, 6, and 1. Very often, the bias of any type accusation becomes clear in the process of explaining why. I'm sure some users' opinions are more valid than others, but none of you are infallible. Proof comes from how often the self proclaimed experts disagree in this thread alone, then bicker as if their opinions are facts. The end result isn't a hierarchy of expertise of Enneagram wisdom, but rather a pecking order of who can debate their conjecture the best.

I really do think I've learned a lot about this system from you all, and I thank you all for your insights. But, I earned them by being persistent, despite all the self entitled condescension, assumptions, and insistent projection of baseless opinion. Until you experts can acknowledge how much of a gray area you're wallowing in on this subject, I don't think the environment here is going to foster those people you look down on ever having much motivation to bother understanding what you think they need to know. That's sad because it seems as if this is a subject you guys are rather passionate about. Wouldn't it be better if you welcomed them into the fold instead of bashing them for not being one of the cool kids who get it like you do - or refusing to graciously accept your assertion of mistype of them from a few lines of text they've shared? 

Lastly, I think it is highly likely that the majority of the 4's, 5's, and any other types you experts assume are mistyped are likely actually whatever type they've self assessed as. 4's and 5's have a strong motivation to frequent a forum like this looking for answers about personality and themselves, so they're going to be overpopulated here - but then again so are the MBTI types that would be inclined to look into these sorts of pattern recognition based personality systems. Most of them never bother to consult you 'experts' because they don't have to. The people who do create type me threads don't necessarily represent the ones who don't, most likely because they're not having any indecision about what they've determined. 

Yet another fallacy of association.


----------



## Paradigm

@_Doll_, @_Chained Divinity_

In my opinion, the subtypes perpetuated by Naranjo are a bit too "old-school" anymore to be of use for typing. They don't incorporate wings or stackings, so they end up being somewhat inaccurate for the typical PerC user.

We had a recent (short) thread talking about it: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ion-sp-instinct-just-generally-instincts.html

Edit: Which isn't to say they have no use in theoretical discussions, just that I don't recommend using them as a definitive source for typing given the advances in Enneagram theory since they were created.


----------



## Doll

Paradigm said:


> @_Doll_, @_Chained Divinity_
> 
> In my opinion, the subtypes perpetuated by Naranjo are a bit too "old-school" anymore to be of use for typing. They don't incorporate wings or stackings, so they end up being somewhat inaccurate for the typical PerC user.
> 
> We had a recent (short) thread talking about it: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ion-sp-instinct-just-generally-instincts.html
> 
> Edit: Which isn't to say they have no use in theoretical discussions, just that I don't recommend using them as a definitive source for typing given the advances in Enneagram theory since they were created.


That's definitely true - if someone isn't certain of the primary type, working out instinct variations is definitely not going to get you there faster. If anything it would impede progress.


----------



## Paradigm

Doll said:


> That's definitely true - if someone isn't certain of the primary type, working out instinct variations is definitely not going to get you there faster. If anything it would impede progress.


Well, and even if they do know their core type, it's not always going to be accurate. For example, Naranjo has everyone convinced that SP6 is phobic and SX6 is counterphobic, but that's an incredibly narrow way of interpreting the way instincts can play out in a person. Why can't an a counterphobic 6 be overly concerned with their survival and health and conservative of their energy? That would normally be called SP-first, yet Naranjo makes it appear as if _every_ SP 6 has to be a scaredy bunny rabbit.

I just think that while they can be useful, they're also very limited.


----------



## Paradigm

Chained Divinity said:


> All of the bolded reminds me of me. XD Although I've done a _terrible_ job of seeking disaster _lately_, I've been involved in my fair share of self-destructive relationships. XD


To be fair, I know a 2w1 sx/so who is self-destructive as hell, especially (but not limited to) in relationships. He has the worst taste in women and refuses to listen to anyone who would tell him he's in an abusive / dead-end relationship.

I'm fairly sure he'd self-identify as 4, but he's so incredibly 2. He has this white knight / martyr syndrome, will constantly guilt-trip others, and believes there's Good In Everyone. But he sees himself as superdifferent and gets himself fired from jobs because he thinks they're boring. Everyone is a sheep or something; he's a conspiracy theorist. He believes in the Spirit Of The Universe and thinks he's a psychic healer.

...I should mention he's very unhealthy. 

I'm not intentionally trying to compare him to you or say you must be like this or anything, it's just that he's a good example of how a core 2 would probably self-identify as not-2.


----------



## Bricolage

Paradigm said:


> To be fair, I know a 2w1 sx/so who is self-destructive as hell, especially (but not limited to) in relationships. He has the worst taste in women and refuses to listen to anyone who would tell him he's in an abusive / dead-end relationship.
> 
> I'm fairly sure he'd self-identify as 4, but he's so incredibly 2. He has this white knight / martyr syndrome, will constantly guilt-trip others, and believes there's Good In Everyone. But he sees himself as superdifferent and gets himself fired from jobs because he thinks they're boring. Everyone is a sheep or something; he's a conspiracy theorist. He believes in the Spirit Of The Universe and thinks he's a psychic healer.
> 
> ...I should mention he's very unhealthy.
> 
> I'm not intentionally trying to compare him to you or say you must be like this or anything, it's just that he's a good example of how a core 2 would probably self-identify as not-2.


I've heard that twos are rescuers and fours secretly want to be rescued and understood. It sounds like that applies here.


----------



## Paradigm

Bricolage said:


> I've heard that twos are rescuers and fours secretly want to be rescued and understood. It sounds like that applies here.


Maybe. Nuances and all that. Plus people of any type can develop ego defenses to convince themselves otherwise -- that they don't need anyone, that they have to do everything, that everyone is out to get them, and so on. Surely some types are more prone to each of these defenses, but it's not exactly proof of type by itself. (No one distinction is proof of type, basically.)


----------



## Bricolage

Paradigm said:


> Maybe. Nuances and all that. Plus people of any type can develop ego defenses to convince themselves otherwise -- that they don't need anyone, that they have to do everything, that everyone is out to get them, and so on. Surely some types are more prone to each of these defenses, but it's not exactly proof of type by itself. (No one distinction is proof of type, basically.)


I would just look at psychological health and dis/integration of 4 and 2. It's tricky because each interplays with the other and they share histrionic behaviors.


----------



## Paradigm

Bricolage said:


> I would just look at psychological health and dis/integration of 4 and 2. It's tricky because each interplays with the other and they share histrionic behaviors.


That's true. It doesn't always work for everyone, but it's a good thing to think about. I used this method to decide between 1 or 2 for someone, because I felt like they likely integrated to 7 instead of 4. The problems start when one tries to apply this to tritype, or when their choices of type may be wrong altogether. Like, a disintegrating 1 may display some 2/3/4 characteristics and try to decide which image type they are. And lord help them if they're an attachment type; that 3/6/9 triangle is notorious for blending together


----------



## mimesis

Nobleheart said:


> A logical observation of rhetoric.
> 
> An association fallacy would be to assume that because _some_ people mistype, this is evidence that enough people mistype to invalidate data. There is no way to know one way or the other, and many factors must be considered - most notably the assumption of infallibility when asserting that someone else has mistyped.


Yeah, there's where that flexible range of convenience comes in. Basically you argue "but they are not necessarily invalid" Which I could agree with, except that this magically changes to "clockwork hard evidence", or whatever you called it. So I guess it's either a short attention span, or willfull ignorance and confirmation bias (I believe this was already suggested recently). You seem to believe it yourself, but probably that's due to a blind reliance on your Ni. Perhaps when your (Fe and) Ti is "filled in", we might have this debate. Until then, I have learned, this is rather futile and like having a conversation with a brick wall. Not how I picture spending my sunday. Not even when it rains. 



> Lastly, I think it is highly likely that the majority of the 4's, 5's, and any other types you experts assume are mistyped are likely actually whatever type they've self assessed as. 4's and 5's have a strong motivation to frequent a forum like this looking for answers about personality and themselves, so they're going to be overpopulated here - but then again so are the MBTI types that would be inclined to look into these sorts of pattern recognition based personality systems. Most of them never bother to consult you 'experts' because they don't have to. The people who do create type me threads don't necessarily represent the ones who don't, most likely because they're not having any indecision about what they've determined.
> 
> Yet another fallacy of association.


Check the definition, because I'm clueless what you are trying to say with association fallacy.

A while ago on this thread the difference was made between Te and Ti, with Ti (that is, provided it indeed concerns logical inferrence and not rhetoric, or Fe value judgement) focusing on validity, and Te on soundness. You can check that as well.


----------



## Doll

Paradigm said:


> Well, and even if they do know their core type, it's not always going to be accurate. For example, Naranjo has everyone convinced that SP6 is phobic and SX6 is counterphobic, but that's an incredibly narrow way of interpreting the way instincts can play out in a person. Why can't an a counterphobic 6 be overly concerned with their survival and health and conservative of their energy? That would normally be called SP-first, yet Naranjo makes it appear as if _every_ SP 6 has to be a scaredy bunny rabbit.
> 
> I just think that while they can be useful, they're also very limited.


That is extremely constrictive. Admittedly I haven't read Naranjo in depth, but this would turn me off. 

When typing, I tend to think of the instincts as an entirely separate system. 

This isn't quite right since it _is _dependent on the core type involved, but it does help to not allow such theories to cloud that person's sense of self by introducing limitations like that. I counld definitely picture an SP6 who is counterphobic and an SX6 who is phobic. I don't understand how someone _couldn't_ be that.


----------



## Animal

@Doll

If I think of a good, strong case for types for you, I will let you know - I've been percolating since the day you tagged me. It just takes me a long time to make a strong case. I keep it in mind, but I have to SEE it and synthesize a lot of things before I have a very compelling case to make.

As for what I have always thought all along, your current tritype (9w8 included) seems absolutely accurate. Sx/So as well. If I can come up with the words for "why" I will write a post about it sometime.  But I think @Cosmic Orgasm explanation for the 9w8 > 9w1 was really strong and I found nothing in that to disagree with.


----------



## Paradigm

Doll said:


> That is extremely constrictive. Admittedly I haven't read Naranjo in depth, but this would turn me off.
> 
> When typing, I tend to think of the instincts as an entirely separate system.
> 
> This isn't quite right since it _is _dependent on the core type involved, but it does help to not allow such theories to cloud that person's sense of self by introducing limitations like that. I counld definitely picture an SP6 who is counterphobic and an SX6 who is phobic. I don't understand how someone _couldn't_ be that.


I agree that instincts will differ based upon Enneagram type, but I don't think it's anywhere near to the extent that Naranjo (and Naranjo students, such as Beatrice Chestnut) claims. I admit that I do fall into his stereotype of SP6 warmth (I _am _phobic 6w7 after all [/slight sarcasm])... But on the other hand, I also fall into the stereotypical SP category by being detached and conservative of energy (which people would have you believe is limited to type 5, but that's slightly off topic).

I don't like the idea that being a certain subtype means you _have_ to follow his behavior profile, or that following his behavior profile means you're a certain subtype, but unfortunately it's such a common assumption nowadays that the concept of separating the two (instinct vs type) is a bit foreign. Oddly enough, I _think_ this is a relatively recent development; I feel like it was more common, say, a year ago to treat them as separate. There has been an influx of Naranjo info, though, so I guess it's understandable.

...

And since I'm ranting about Naranjo, his way of correlating SX to sex/gender really annoys me. SX has nothing to do with gender or sexuality. It _reeks _of heteronormativism. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but come on. 
[/vent]


----------



## Doll

Paradigm said:


> I agree that instincts will differ based upon Enneagram type, but I don't think it's anywhere near to the extent that Naranjo (and Naranjo students, such as Beatrice Chestnut) claims. I admit that I do fall into his stereotype of SP6 warmth (I _am _phobic 6w7 after all [/slight sarcasm])... But on the other hand, I also fall into the stereotypical SP category by being detached and conservative of energy (which people would have you believe is limited to type 5, but that's slightly off topic).
> 
> I don't like the idea that being a certain subtype means you _have_ to follow his behavior profile, or that following his behavior profile means you're a certain subtype, but unfortunately it's such a common assumption nowadays that the concept of separating the two (instinct vs type) is a bit foreign. Oddly enough, I _think_ this is a relatively recent development; I feel like it was more common, say, a year ago to treat them as separate. There has been an influx of Naranjo info, though, so I guess it's understandable.


Stereotypes are always stereotypes for a reason, even though many of them on here are cringeworthy and I wouldn't ever repeat them (lol). There are a few 4 stereotypes I definitely relate to, specifically SX 4, but I knew I was a 4 before the instincts were heavily discussed on the forum... so I had the benefit of arriving to my type before taking the instinctual stackings into consideration. I mean... if someone is really trying, they can relate to a lot of any subtype of _any_ type, as there are... several of them... and some of the descriptions out there are based off commonly held stereotypes. I mean there are only so many adjectives you can use. It leads to cherry-picking and saying, "well, I don't relate to this about 4, but I'm a SOC first 4 and that's why." No one should ever use their instinctual stackings (don't even get me started on fixes) to explain away the basic internal motivations and needs for their _core type_. That's when I start getting irritated. 

But yeah, I'm going to try to keep going at them separately because that's what personally helped me. Maybe other people have had different experiences, but from what I've seen it only leads to confusion.


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> And since I'm ranting about Naranjo, his way of correlating SX to sex/gender really annoys me. SX has nothing to do with gender or sexuality. It _reeks _of heteronormativism. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but come on.
> [/vent]


Of course it has something to do with sexuality, why else name this clustering of instinct sexual? If you read that as hetero-norm-ative, I would say that is a So-ish way of looking at it, just like the focus on icons and concern about what people think. 

I personally don't spend a lot of energy and focus on what is generally accepted, misunderstood, or who are considered authorities. I only care about individuals, whatever their status may be, or ideas that spark my curiosity and desire to know (more), who challenge me intellectually, or who's creativity inspire me, or move me. Sx to me is both wasteful as creative, both self loss as (self) transcendent. It is the (assertive) force that drives us to unknown territory (*hetero-logy*), to the heart of darkness, to cross boundaries. The drive that seeks to be immersed, or absorbed by the thrills and shivering (not to mention experience of sovereignty) that comes along with this -moment of- transgression, (sometimes the intensity is caused by, or in conjunction with the instinctual drives to shy away from it or to avoid being overwhelmed or waste (of oneself, resources, etc.)). 

Sometimes we call this intimacy or connection. Sometimes sports or competiton. Sometimes it's art or (creative) science. Sometimes it's glamorous, sometimes it's provocative, subversive, naughty, perverted, ecstatic. Sometimes it's spiritual transcendence. And sometimes it's sexuality. They all apply to my description above.


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> Of course it has something to do with sexuality, why else name this clustering of instinct sexual? If you read that as hetero-norm-ative, I would say that is a So-ish way of looking at it, just like the focus on icons and concern about what people think.


No, I have to actually read about these things in depth to make any use out of the concepts. They don't occur to me naturally.

Though, admittedly, it _was _a rant from the viewpoint of an agender bisexual Sp/Sx, so... Yeah. I don't believe SX has much to do with sexuality as I don't see any reason why an asexual wouldn't be SX. To me, SX involves merging, intensity, a "chemical bond", all of which is possible for an asexual to desire. Sexual intercourse isn't the only way of maintaining those things, it's just the way most people want to in a relationship.

Edit: I was originally going to to edit to add how SX isn't what drives people to have sex even in a stereotypical relationship, but then I reread your post. I think we kinda spoke over each other  My point was more that SX isn't _just_ about sex/gender (since Naranjo says SX6 conform to gender roles and whatnot), but you're saying that it _can_ have something to do with it. Which I'd kinda agree with but it seems a little... like a given. Each instinct approaches interpersonal relations differently, but it doesn't determine which labels (cis, queer, trans, etc) we grow into.


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> No, I have to actually read about these things in depth to make any use out of the concepts. They don't occur to me naturally.
> 
> Though, admittedly, it _was _a rant from the viewpoint of an agender bisexual Sp/Sx, so... Yeah. I don't believe SX has much to do with sexuality as I don't see any reason why an asexual wouldn't be SX. To me, SX involves merging, intensity, a "chemical bond", all of which is possible for an asexual to desire. Sexual intercourse isn't the only way of maintaining those things, it's just the way most people want to in a relationship.


Well that doesn't make Sx asexual does it? Sx bond is different from a relationship. A sexual merger is different from a social merger (or Sp merger for that matter)

A relationship is not (for everyone) a precondition for intimate connection or chemistry. Intimacy is not (for everyone) necessary to have a relationship. Some people need a relationship for security and resources. Sx first may have a hard time continuing a relationship when chemistry has run out. But I know, and have seen some people don't (or so it appears).

Oh, asexual doesn't necessarily mean you don't have sex. But I don't think these categories are relevant, although I sometimes think: we don't speak of a demi-artist or demi-fan either do we? (or a demi-groupie, lol)


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> Well that doesn't make Sx asexual does it? Sx bond is different from a relationship. A sexual merger is different from a social merger (or Sp merger for that matter)
> 
> A relationship is not (for everyone) a precondition for intimate connection or chemistry. Intimacy is not (for everyone) necessary to have a relationship. Some people need a relationship for security and resources. Sx first may have a hard time continuing a relationship when chemistry has run out. But I know, and have seen some people don't (or so it appears).
> 
> Oh, asexual doesn't necessarily.mean you don't have sex. I don't think these categories are relevant, although I sometimes think: we don't speak of a demi-artist or demi-fan either do we? (or a demi-groupie, lol)


Heh, I just edited my post as you were writing yours. I think we may be on a similar page and are kinda nitpicking specifics, but let me know if I'm wrong about that.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Paradigm said:


> I agree that instincts will differ based upon Enneagram type, but I don't think it's anywhere near to the extent that Naranjo (and Naranjo students, such as Beatrice Chestnut) claims. I admit that I do fall into his stereotype of SP6 warmth (I _am _phobic 6w7 after all [/slight sarcasm])... But on the other hand, I also fall into the stereotypical SP category by being detached and conservative of energy (which people would have you believe is limited to type 5, but that's slightly off topic).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like the idea that being a certain subtype means you _have_ to follow his behavior profile, or that following his behavior profile means you're a certain subtype, but unfortunately it's such a common assumption nowadays that the concept of separating the two (instinct vs type) is a bit foreign. Oddly enough, I _think_ this is a relatively recent development; I feel like it was more common, say, a year ago to treat them as separate. There has been an influx of Naranjo info, though, so I guess it's understandable.
> 
> 
> 
> naturally, there is room for variation based on stacking, MBTI and wing (though I will concede that the wing is underemphasized by Naranjo, even if it's overemphasized by almost everyone else), but I feel like most examples of a given subtype will fit a certain archetype nicely. it also makes it easier to type because each of the 27 subtypes is very distinct (even though there are plenty of look alike types, like So 6 and Sp 1).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And since I'm ranting about Naranjo, his way of correlating SX to sex/gender really annoys me.* SX has nothing to do with gender or sexuality. It _reeks _of heteronormativism. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but come on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't see how it could be but. we need to remember that the Sx instinct is an *instinct* and that it is called *Sexual* instinct for a reason. of course, this doesn't necessitate penis entering vagina, but it does mean that the energy of the Sx subtype is going to be much more carnal, competitive and, yes, _sexual_ than it's Sp and So cousins. the whole "Sx is 1-1, intimacy and passion" shtick is bullshit
Click to expand...


----------



## Paradigm

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I don't see how it could be but. we need to remember that the Sx instinct is an *instinct* and that it is called *Sexual* instinct for a reason. of course, this doesn't necessitate penis entering vagina, but it does mean that the energy of the Sx subtype is going to be much more carnal, competitive and, yes, _sexual_ than it's Sp and So cousins. the whole "Sx is 1-1, intimacy and passion" shtick is bullshit


To be blunt, I think most people who talk about how "carnal" it is are likely over-identifying with and glamorizing SX. Just like how I think people overemphasize the physical obsession of SPs (not including the mental aspects), people overemphasize how "sexual" SX is.

I'm not one to rely on RH, but this excerpt sums it up well:


Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Sexual subtypes are not to be confused with having a healthy sex drive or being sexy, which is a common reason for many people misidentifying themselves as SX-primaries. The name of this instinct is misleading as, in the end, all instincts play into sexuality. SP is the body-to-body part - cuddling, sensuality, autonomic regulation. SX is riding the waves of energy, the invisible forces of attraction between the people, but it doesn't need to be actively physical. In a union, all three instincts combine - warmth (self-pres), energy (sexual), affection (social). One can have the sexual instinct operating in a group of friends—being in the heat, stimulated, energized, engaged. In relationships, there is a desire for endless engagement and fascination.


I suspect SX was named "sexual" to a) round out the whole basic drive / S-word theme; and b) because, as I said, that's how most people approach relationships - through sex. (Probably it was mostly option A.) Given this was made in, what, the 60s(?), it's not surprising there would be "queerphobic" themes such as these, which fail to include the spectrum of humanity.

(As for your saying you like Naranjo's subtypes, I'm not really sure what else to say about why I don't agree.)


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> Edit: I was originally going to to edit to add how SX isn't what drives people to have sex even in a stereotypical relationship, but then I reread your post. I think we kinda spoke over each other  My point was more that SX isn't _just_ about sex/gender (since Naranjo says SX6 conform to gender roles and whatnot), but you're saying that it _can_ have something to do with it. Which I'd kinda agree with but it seems a little... like a given. Each instinct approaches interpersonal relations differently, but it doesn't determine which labels (cis, queer, trans, etc) we grow into.


I agree on not just. 
I only remember about Sx3 being focused on gender, but I believe that was Palmer. I agree it doesn't determine which label we grow into, but likely it will be different for a Sx4 queer than a Sx6 queer to realize oneself. The latter would probably be more aware of gender roles, or preoccupied with involved risk as a result from deviation or coming out. Or perhaps, but this is just conjecture, queers are more likely Sx4 (than 6) and trans more likely sx6 (than 4). 

I knew a queer and a trans, who were friends, and I liked the 'queer' very much, who was very gentle and kind, normal as a gay person, as well as his alter ego drag queen bitch who was quite funny. But I often had an argument with the trans, for bashing gays and making bitchy homophobic remarks. I wondered why she was so obsessed with homosexuals (projection?). It really surprised me, I would expect her to be more openminded, especially since I knew she (still) had a weenie and I needed to resist the temptation to remind her, to refrain her from bashing.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Paradigm


> To be blunt, I think most people who talk about how "carnal" it is are likely over-identifying with and glamorizing SX. Just like how I think people overemphasize the physical obsession of SPs (not including the mental aspects), people overemphasize how "sexual" SX is.


well, to be blunt in turn, the Sexual instinct _is_ much more dramatic than the other instincts. speaking as someone who was in denial about being an Sx dom for several years (because I wanted to be Sp dom. still do), I've noticed it's the other camp (the ones who think it's all about intimacy/1-1/etc) who are ones over-identifying with Sx. 



> I suspect SX was named "sexual" to a) round out the whole basic drive / S-word theme; and b) because, as I said, that's how most people approach relationships - through sex. (Probably it was mostly option A.) Given this was made in, what, the 60s(?), it's not surprising there would be "queerphobic" themes such as these, which fail to include the spectrum of humanity.


it was named "sexual" because
1) it is sexual in nature (albeit, as I said, not necessarily in the penis+vagina sense)
2) Sx is the replication part of survival and replication
3) with all of the instincts (but especially Sx and, to a lesser extent, Sp) people tend to forget that the stackings are instinctual compulsions and make them out to be much more consciously/intellectually motivated than they actually are (or they attribute characters of matured relationships to instinct when they are not related to instinct at all. otherwise, they would not have needed to be developed)

I also don't necessarily agree that the Social instinct is primarily in charge of affection. many of the most affectionate people I know are Sx/Sps (self inclued)


----------



## Paradigm

Swordsman of Mana said:


> well, to be blunt in turn, the Sexual instinct _is_ much more dramatic than the other instincts.


I know. I don't doubt their experiences, it's more that I'm not sold on "how SX" that sort of thing truly is at the core of it. Are they intentionally describing things dramatically to draw more energy from it? If they are, then what about the more subdued or understated people who "happen to be" SX-first, how would they describe similar things?
(Those are slightly rhetorical questions related to my point, btw.)



> I've noticed it's the other camp (the ones who think it's all about intimacy/1-1/etc) who are ones over-identifying with Sx.


How so?



> it was named "sexual" because
> 1) it is sexual in nature (albeit, as I said, not necessarily in the penis+vagina sense)
> 2) Sx is the replication part of survival and replication


Don't agree with 1, and 2 is basically what I said already :laughing: Really, the basic human/animal instinct involves survival (SP), tribal (SOC), and procreation (SX). That doesn't mean they're going to be 1:1 correlations, that just means the creators wanted to reflect the basic sides of ourselves.



> 3) with all of the instincts (but especially Sx and, to a lesser extent, Sp) people tend to forget that the stackings are instinctual compulsions and make them out to be much more consciously/intellectually motivated than they actually are (or they attribute characters of matured relationships to instinct when they are not related to instinct at all. otherwise, they would not have needed to be developed)


Agreed, but slightly irrelevant, imo. 



> I also don't necessarily agree that the Social instinct is primarily in charge of affection. many of the most affectionate people I know are Sx/Sps (self inclued)


I think _that _largely depends on how we're defining affection. It seems like one of those situations where synonyms get in the way; they meant something specific by correlating "affection" to SOC and "intimacy" to SX. Maybe you're thinking of "affection" the way they're thinking of "intimacy."

And for full disclosure, my introverted side is flaring up again, so I'm becoming more hermity and will probably lose interest soon.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Arya said:


> how do you feel like a six if you're a six? we "think we're a six" and then over think the idea into oblivion. No "feeling" about it. :laughing:


I guess that's one reason I don't feel like a six, heh. I'm all about feels really. =P

Yeah, late answer. Sometimes I start avoiding stuff because I feel self-conscious.


Edit: Aaand, I've finally caught up with this thread.  Had some pages to read through, but I guess that's what happens when you avoid a decently active thread for a few days.


----------



## Doll

Paradigm said:


> To be blunt, I think most people who talk about how "carnal" it is are likely over-identifying with and glamorizing SX. Just like how I think people overemphasize the physical obsession of SPs (not including the mental aspects), people overemphasize how "sexual" SX is.


Iawtc. It's taken very literally by a lot of camps - and while that idea may have some bearing on the ultimate definition of being an SX-first, there's _more to it _than that.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> Well, to be blunt in turn, the Sexual instinct _is_ much more dramatic than the other instincts. speaking as someone who was in denial about being an Sx dom for several years (because I wanted to be Sp dom. still do), I've noticed it's the other camp (the ones who think it's all about intimacy/1-1/etc) who are ones over-identifying with Sx.


I don't see that pattern as much, except for natural introverts and think that preferring to have close friends means that you're SX and not SOC. That basic thinking I've seen before, and that's another case of someone taking the 1:1 statement and running wild with it, which can happen on any and every aspect of the SX instinct. I've seen threads latching on one single component of this instinct and saying, "omg this PROVES I'm SX-first!" without even considering that you could look at any instinct and identify with some_thing_. 



> it was named "sexual" because
> 1) it is sexual in nature (albeit, as I said, not necessarily in the penis+vagina sense)


In what sense? I mean, I know I'm an SX first and I didn't have sex until I was 22 (TMI SORRY). I craved intimacy, but it was through the form of the fantastical and always with one other person (a girl, idek why it took me so long to realize I was gay), and I eventually became unhealthily obsessed with that person and the fictional lives we had created. Through those "characters" there was a sexual bond, but it was repressed in myself for a very long time.



> 2) Sx is the replication part of survival and replication


But what if someone is in a homosexual relationship and is well aware that they won't be replicating? Wouldn't that go against the SX-instinct as defined here?



> I also don't necessarily agree that the Social instinct is primarily in charge of affection. many of the most affectionate people I know are Sx/Sps (self inclued)


I agree.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Paradigm


> I know. I don't doubt their experiences, it's more that I'm not sold on "how SX" that sort of thing truly is at the core of it. Are they intentionally describing things dramatically to draw more energy from it? If they are, then what about the more subdued or understated people who "happen to be" SX-first, how would they describe similar things?


- well, it's in the context of whichever core type the Sx dom is. an Sx 5 or Sx 9 is likely to be very subdued, but a subdued Sx 2 or Sx 8? that would be very strange :laughing: still, going with the example of Sx 5, they're still noticeably more vivacious and emotionally intense than an So or Sp 5. it's also worth noting that, while more subdued, most Sx dom introverts still give off a quietly intense energy that their So and Sp cousins usually lack. _however_, to play devil's advocate for a second, I think Sexual 6 (at least Sx/Sp) can be noticeably more subdued and introverted when they're not counter phobically trying to kill something.



> (Those are slightly rhetorical questions related to my point, btw.)


I always answer rhetorical questions :wink:


----------



## Pelopra

Since the conversation has entered this territory anyway, can I reiterate my request (from elsewhere) for an explanation of sx phobic 6?

Long story short, a quick poll of friends and family revealed unanimous agreement (on the part of others) that the energy I give off is "intense", and I'm having difficulty relating to the idea of being sx-first but would like to investigate the possibility.


----------



## Arya

Pelopra said:


> Since the conversation has entered this territory anyway, can I reiterate my request (from elsewhere) for an explanation of sx phobic 6?
> 
> Long story short, a quick poll of friends and family revealed unanimous agreement (on the part of others) that the energy I give off is "intense", and I'm having difficulty relating to the idea of being sx-first but would like to investigate the possibility.


I am very intense, but not at all aggressive. I withdraw from most conflict unless it's important, and I tend to try to make peace and use my niceness to solve conflicts between myself and others. I am very aware of anything I fear, but I generally do try to face them. That is somewhat new though. when I was younger my tactic was generally just to run. My anxieties tend to be around whether I will ever find a person who I just click with and who feels the same, and if I'm bored and have no excitement that makes me anxious too. That's how it works for me. I have all three withdrawn types. Five as a wing, and 4 and 9 in my tritype, so it makes sense.


----------



## Eclipsed

Well, if anybody here suspects that I'm mistyped, I give them permission to call me out on it :tongue:
I'm pretty certain that I'm a four, but I'm not sure if I have a three wing or a five wing.


----------



## Doll

Eclipsed said:


> Well, if anybody here suspects that I'm mistyped, I give them permission to call me out on it :tongue:
> I'm pretty certain that I'm a four, but I'm not sure if I have a three wing or a five wing.


YOU ARE MISTYPED.

I'm j/k, but if you have questions on your wing I'd be happy to help - do you have a questionnaire out there somewhere?


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## Eclipsed

Doll said:


> YOU ARE MISTYPED.
> 
> I'm j/k, but if you have questions on your wing I'd be happy to help - do you have a questionnaire out there somewhere?


I AM? :O

But oh gosh, don't even ask me about questionnaires D: I've done like ten and gotten inconclusive results each time.

Rather than that, could you outline some defining characteristics of 4w3s versus 4w5s? Like, important factors in telling them apart? I've read up on the two types, but the descriptions are usually just like: "4w3s are flamboyant and ambitious" and "4w5s are intellectual and withdrawn." That sort of thing doesn't really get me anywhere.


----------



## Grau the Great

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I also don't necessarily agree that the Social instinct is primarily in charge of affection. many of the most affectionate people I know are Sx/Sps (self inclued)


I'd agree with this. I'm not sure where equating the Social instinct with affection came from, but it doesn't make sense. If it means "affection" in terms of being strongly partial towards particular people, groups, or ideas, then it fits (roughly). But in the sense that most people use 'affectionate', nah, not at all.


----------



## Bricolage

Grau the Great said:


> I'd agree with this. I'm not sure where equating the Social instinct with affection came from, but it doesn't make sense. If it means "affection" in terms of being strongly partial towards particular people, groups, or ideas, then it fits (roughly). But in the sense that most people use 'affectionate', nah, not at all.


The type among the 6 instinctual variants to move inexorably closer to you during 1-1 conversation is probably Sx/Sp.


----------



## Doll

Eclipsed said:


> I AM? :O
> 
> But oh gosh, don't even ask me about questionnaires D: I've done like ten and gotten inconclusive results each time.
> 
> Rather than that, could you outline some defining characteristics of 4w3s versus 4w5s? Like, important factors in telling them apart? I've read up on the two types, but the descriptions are usually just like: "4w3s are flamboyant and ambitious" and "4w5s are intellectual and withdrawn." That sort of thing doesn't really get me anywhere.


It's actually difficult to generalize those two types; I'd do best looking at one of your past questionnaires and just observing how you write/answer questions, tbh.  But I'll do my best. Anyone feel free to jump in with your own observations.

4w3s would be more "polished" than a 4w5, more aware of the people in their environment and the status of everyone around them. More extroverted and balanced in their self-esteem issues. In my experience it feels like a bit of a whirlwind: feeling accomplished and ambitious one minute and then withdrawn and secretive the next. 

All core 4s want to be self-revealing. The real difference is who they express this to and how. Being two withdrawn E-types, a 4w5 would be content to not be so showy in their talents and uniqueness (although there are exceptions). They would be more contained and are often overlooked because of this. 

A 4w3 would want others to see their ahmaaaazing story that they wrote and they want feedback, positive and negative. A 4w5 might be fine keeping those stories between themselves and one or two other people, if that. They don't need the recognition from others. A 4w3 might dream of getting published and sharing their story with the world. A 4w5 would dream of coming to a profound self-revelation about themselves (a 4w3 would love this too, but they would want to share this profound revelation with as many people as possible). A 4w3 would have a "performer" quality because they often do perform, but what they choose to show to others is the essence of themselves, something that is actually deeply personal and what they see as authentic. A 4w5 could be just as talented as the 4w3 - but they would choose doing something that doesn't bring all eyes to them, while at the same time being able to give their personal touch.

4w3s are more concerned about how others think of them and can often be deeply upset by it. I think most 4w5s can write it off; their idiosyncrasies are part of who they are and they wouldn't be as troubled by others' perceptions. I see them as more turning inward, having a richer inner world where they can "lose themselves" - so to speak. I had this as a child, but my inner world was more fun when I was able to share it and when I was praised for my creativity. I feel as though a 4w3 would be more interested in engaging those around them, helping others to understand, while a 4w5 wouldn't be as interested in communicating with people who don't understand them. 

A 4w5 would be more plagued by self-doubt and alienation, a 4w3 with jealousy and competition.


----------



## Paradigm

Bricolage said:


> The type among the 6 instinctual variants to move inexorably closer to you during 1-1 conversation is probably Sx/Sp.


That still falls into "intimacy" though. In really imprecise terms, I think "affection" is like a less intense "intimacy." It's more of a caring vibe than a merging one.


----------



## mimesis

Intimacy stems from Latin "intimare" which means "make known" or "make public", and is in that respect the counterpart of "private" or "discrete" (separate).

Intensity depends on how private or discrete it is, and level of vulnerability. Physical intimacy is different from emotional intimacy. People may be (more) inhibited in either one or both (or none). Both can be, but are not necessarily affectionate. Affection can be intense too, usually we call this love, sometimes infatuation.

You can feel intense affection, while at the same time backing away from the intensity of making it known, feeling vulnerable for rejection, or being overwhelmed or out of control.

Some may be very intense in expressing affection, for fear being abandoned, and at the same time shy away from disclosing vulnerability (expressing insecurity, feelings or thoughts that are considered weird, feelings of hurt, or even anger and frustration). Expressing anger can be a sign of intimate connection.


----------



## Eclipsed

@Doll

In this case, I relate to the 4w5 a _lot_ more. I wouldn't mind being recognized by the world, but it's not as much of a priority for me as becoming truly _worthy_ of that recognition and finding individual people who really get me. I'm not interested in those who do not or do not have the capacity to understand.

There was something said about 4w3s in another thread that I strongly relate to:



> 4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game


Is that what you meant about it feeling like a whirlwind? Is the above a very important element in identifying a 4w3? I really relate to it, so that's why I'm still unsure about my wing.


----------



## Doll

Eclipsed said:


> Is that what you meant about it feeling like a whirlwind? Is the above a very important element in identifying a 4w3? I really relate to it, so that's why I'm still unsure about my wing.


Yes, that's what I meant. 3s and 4s have fundamentally different motivations and outlooks. 3s are positive, 4s are negative. 3s extroverted, 4s introverted. That constant conflict can give the impression of having a "whirlwind" or feeling unsettled. However, I think any type could experience this sensation and it isn't exclusive to 4w3s. 4w5s are perfectly capable of having whirlwind emotion, particularly if 4s are their core type. 4w3s might inherently be more volatile, but this isn't a rule.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Doll said:


> It's actually difficult to generalize those two types; I'd do best looking at one of your past questionnaires and just observing how you write/answer questions, tbh.  But I'll do my best. Anyone feel free to jump in with your own observations.
> 
> 4w3s would be more "polished" than a 4w5, more aware of the people in their environment and the status of everyone around them. More extroverted and balanced in their self-esteem issues. In my experience it feels like a bit of a whirlwind: feeling accomplished and ambitious one minute and then withdrawn and secretive the next.
> 
> All core 4s want to be self-revealing. The real difference is who they express this to and how. Being two withdrawn E-types, a 4w5 would be content to not be so showy in their talents and uniqueness (although there are exceptions). They would be more contained and are often overlooked because of this.
> 
> A 4w3 would want others to see their ahmaaaazing story that they wrote and they want feedback, positive and negative. A 4w5 might be fine keeping those stories between themselves and one or two other people, if that. They don't need the recognition from others. A 4w3 might dream of getting published and sharing their story with the world. A 4w5 would dream of coming to a profound self-revelation about themselves (a 4w3 would love this too, but they would want to share this profound revelation with as many people as possible). A 4w3 would have a "performer" quality because they often do perform, but what they choose to show to others is the essence of themselves, something that is actually deeply personal and what they see as authentic. A 4w5 could be just as talented as the 4w3 - but they would choose doing something that doesn't bring all eyes to them, while at the same time being able to give their personal touch.
> 
> 4w3s are more concerned about how others think of them and can often be deeply upset by it. I think most 4w5s can write it off; their idiosyncrasies are part of who they are and they wouldn't be as troubled by others' perceptions. I see them as more turning inward, having a richer inner world where they can "lose themselves" - so to speak. I had this as a child, but my inner world was more fun when I was able to share it and when I was praised for my creativity. I feel as though a 4w3 would be more interested in engaging those around them, helping others to understand, while a 4w5 wouldn't be as interested in communicating with people who don't understand them.
> 
> A 4w5 would be more plagued by self-doubt and alienation, a 4w3 with jealousy and competition.


I've been flirting with the idea of being 4w3 for a while, but after reading this, I realize that's impossible.


----------



## Doll

The Scorched Earth said:


> I've been flirting with the idea of being 4w3 for a while, but after reading this, I realize that's impossible.


One of the best examples of the similarities/differences between a 4w3 and a 4w5 is the depiction of Pauline Parker (4w5) and Juliet Hulme (4w3) in the movie "Heavenly Creatures."


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> One of the best examples of the similarities/differences between a 4w3 and a 4w5 is the depiction of Pauline Parker (4w5) and Juliet Hulme (4w3) in the movie "Heavenly Creatures."


Just watched the murder clip on youtube.
Intense :|


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> Just watched the murder clip on youtube.
> Intense :|


And based on a true story... It's shocking to a lot of people that things went as far as they did. The scary thing is: I saw so much of myself in Juliet, especially how I was as an adolescent, and I'm glad I wasn't placed in a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> And based on a true story... It's shocking to a lot of people that things went as far as they did. The scary thing is: I saw so much of myself in Juliet, especially how I was as an adolescent, and I'm glad I wasn't placed in a disaster waiting to happen.


Yeah I imagine it's especially personal for you , given the various issues involved and her being a 4w3. I want to see the rest..

And true story..wow

I understand. I did some very shocking things & shocking things to my family when I was in love with the "forbidden" person too. :/


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> Yeah I imagine it's especially personal for you , given the various issues involved and her being a 4w3. I want to see the rest..
> 
> And true story..wow
> 
> I understand. I did some very shocking things & shocking things to my family when I was in love with the "wrong" person too. :/


It can definitely happen. It unnerves me sometimes to watch it because the friendship mirrors so many that I once had (or _wanted _to have). The good thing was that my parents never tried to intervene.

You should DEFINITELY watch it. You can rent it on Amazon for $2.99. It's so worth it. It's also on youtube I think, but the quality probably isn't as good.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> Just watched the murder clip on youtube.
> Intense :|


Thanks for the impending nightmare I'm going to have.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@koalaroo
I think you are 1w2 rather than 1w9. your vibe is a bit more glamorous and expressive with a slight heir of haughtiness rather than the somewhat drier, "oh, don't mind me" vibe of 1w9. I think your tritype is 1w2>4w3>7w? Sx/?
PS: ENTJ works SO much better for you than INTP. I'm so glad you changed that XD


----------



## koalaroo

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_koalaroo_
> I think you are 1w2 rather than 1w9. your vibe is a bit more glamorous and expressive with a slight heir of haughtiness rather than the somewhat drier, "oh, don't mind me" vibe of 1w9. I think your tritype is 1w2>4w3>7w? Sx/?
> PS: ENTJ works SO much better for you than INTP. I'm so glad you changed that XD


I've actually been waffling on the 1w9 vs 1w2 for a while. I'm pretty sure I'm 1w2 sx/so.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

koalaroo said:


> I've actually been waffling on the 1w9 vs 1w2 for a while. I'm pretty sure I'm 1w2 sx/so.


that definitely works


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

No idea. Am I more 5w6 or 5w4? Or do I seem more like a type 9?


----------



## Doll

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> No idea. Am I more 5w6 or 5w4? Or do I seem more like a type 9?


Did you ever fill out a questionnaire? 

EVERYONE ELSE:

I'm considering 7w8 as a head fix rather than 7w6. What choo think?


----------



## Lacryma

I'm finally comfortable enough to stop questioning my type. However, I'd like to know if any of you think I've mistyped and am not a 9w1? Please let me know your thoughts.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

in case anyone is wondering, no, my current typing is actually NOT a troll typing this time. I'm trying out 2 for awhile to see how it fits.


----------



## Bricolage

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm aware of that (notice I didn't define the term. lust is characterized by excessive indulgence


Kind of. I would say lust is motivated more by a need to feel alive. That's what's behind the eight's intensity. Do you indulge to achieve intensity? Sometimes.


----------



## Sixty Nein

LeaT baby, compare yourself with me in my ultimate 8ness and you will see the more we are closer together in attitude, the more 8 you are in reality. As I am the true hazer of reality, the 8 that ate the world. Anyone who finds themselves wanting however, is casted aside to another type of a more fitting character portrayal.

I hide behind the number 9, because I can do that, and nobody will stop me. That is also an 8 thing to do.


----------



## Entropic

Bricolage said:


> The early Riso and Hudson book in which each type's chapter is broken down into a long, narrative discussion of each type's 9 levels of health. The authors call fives at psychological health 4/9 "the intense conceptualizer" for instance and I think an unhealthy 8 is called "the ruthless outlaw". Are you a ruthless outlaw when unhealthy lolz? What are you like at your worst?


Outlaw? Yeah, sure. I never aligned myself with the system. I've always been the lone wolf kind of person. 

I honestly don't know where I'd place myself on a health range right now because I honestly don't know how healthy or unhealthy I am. I know I'm unhealthy but I don't know how much. I can't put my health in any meaningful perspective right now, but I was perpetually angry in my youth, pretty much. 

Anyway, I don't really buy much into R&H's health levels though, nor do I really ascribe to R&H's idea of the 8. I prefer Almaas' description of holy truth. It's very clear and lucid and I know fully well what he is referring to.

With that said, I kind of feel that your questioning of me is quite shallow. You are looking for behavior to match up with a stereotype caricature of the type, yet you can't even see when it's staring you in the face. Several members have told me that they suspected I was an 8 before I changed my type, so there's that. 

Unless you know me well in person and know how I am like in private and what issues that drive me, this is kind of pointless and I am honestly not going to reveal those things in a public space. So tough luck.


----------



## Animal

Bricolage said:


> _Lust extends beyond sexuality proper. For an eight lust is more like always needing intensity - in relationships, work, even leisure activities. If you don't strive for that kind of intensity then I would question whether you're an eight._


Then I would have to type at 8.

I'm Sx-first. Sp second. That in itself is intense 
Im too intense for most people, my feelings are too intense for most relationships. It seems the only person who _doesn't_ find my emotions too intense in a romantic context, is an 8w7 SX lmao. 7s, 3s, even other 4s find me too intense in that context. I've gotten good feedback on my intensity from sexual 1s, but in my experience so far, they make me cry alot . 

Alot of people can relate to being intensity-driven without being 8s.
Just sayin 

That being said I like your definition & I know what you mean, how it applies to 8s. But would you say it applies to an So/Sp 8w9 the way it applies to a sexual 7, sexual 4, sexual 2, 3 etc?

I have intense workouts at the gym, intense conversations, work intensely hard on my novel. I blast intense music in my headphones at intense volumes and indulge in intense fantasies and emotions while power-walking through intensely beautiful settings. Even when I relax its intense, replete with classical music and a bath. When I took a walk out in nature yeterday its beauty was intense. My longing for my past, longing for anything I desire… is beyond intense. I can drive myself to tears or a rage just with the power of my thoughts, memories, emotions. I'm not an 8 core, though I did mistake myself for an 8 core for a while, for various reasons including ideas like this.


----------



## Sina

@_ephemereality_

so leat, answer me :kitteh:


*1)* what has you thinking the fear of betrayal is what distinguishes an 8 from other types? 

*2) *what were your reasons for considering 6 and then what were your reasons for rejecting it, since apparently you've seriously considered the type :3

*3)* on more than one occasion, i've seen you say you identified with the victim role. i remember you saying on a thread that you strongly identified with the victim mentality, which made you "cry your guts out". my experiences with you, especially in a disagreement, however minor, more than confirm this self-observation you made. it doesn't take much for you to resort to victim play. 

Right...now aren't you such an archetypal 8.  

*4)* you don't even sufficiently understand the 8's relationship with lust to be able to elaborate on the same experientially. curious. 

*5)* whatever makes you think having a shit ton of posts on a forum is evidence for 'a drive to dominate the environment'? hell, looks like you just had way too much fuckin time on your hands.  

give me some other examples of your 'drive to dominate your environment', besides of course using your _famed GRAVITAS_ to make people rearrange cutlery and shit. 
*
behold the power of da ate. :3*

you said you are SO last, and yet you see your posts here as evidence for 'domination of an environment'? besides, i don't really see you as having any kind of so-called leverage, whatever it means in a forum context, to justify that statement of hilarious and delusional self-aggrandizement. mind you, it wasn't even good ol' 8 bravado. it's a total joke. 

*6)* people 'suspecting' you were an 8 doesn't mean shit. just an empty appeal to popular opinion. as a fun example, i've seen people here who don't even have 8 in their tritype (and recognize it now) who mistyped at 8, said everyone IRL thinks i am an 8....everyone on mafia thinks i am an 8..everyone on skype thinks i am an 8...fast fwd a few months...they realize fuck no 8 even in the tritype. 

nice try tho. doesn't fly.


So, hell unlike others here asking you roundabout shit clearly aimed at questioning your type, i won't bother acting like I buy your 8 typing. I don't, and it's fuckin outrageous. i thought you were trolling when you typed at 8 lolz.


----------



## Entropic

@Cosmic Orgasm I am not interested in entertaining in arguing with you to prove my type to you and that's it. If you want to know why I type the way I do, perhaps make a genuine attempt in getting to know me instead of mudslinging me and perhaps one day, I might bother to explain to you why I think the way I do. Perhaps not. Not my problem.


----------



## Sina

ephemereality said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_ I am not interested in entertaining in arguing with you to prove my type to you and that's it. If you want to know why I type the way I do, perhaps make a genuine attempt in getting to know me instead of mudslinging me and perhaps one day, I might bother to explain to you why I think the way I do. Perhaps not. Not my problem.


Well obviously, you don't owe an explanation, but the deflection is cute. 

Naah surely mudslinging wasn't all there was to my attempt to engage you.  You were asked some serious questions, but if that's all you got then it's no skin off my back. :3 You are- after all- on the mistype thread, and I don't buy your typing for shit, so expect to be told that. On that note, yes you are too reactive to be a core competency type. Kiss core 5 goodbye with that admission you made yourself. 


As for getting to know you, sure I'd be interested in that. :3 We'll see how that goes.


----------



## KINGoftheAMAZONS

Grau the Great said:


> This isn't really being wary of ulterior motives or conspiratorial, it's more having a good understanding of reality and how national governments work, especially in the age since the UN's been created. I feel much the same way about the current situation in Ukraine. Most people assume I'm a fan of Putin's Russia for being critical of Western policies, when in reality it has nothing to do with that. Putin's Russia is a deeply flawed state for countless reasons, but *nothing* pisses me off more than "human rights" being used as an excuse to intervene for selfish political gains, as the West is currently doing. It's inconsistent and hypocritical. This sudden surge of empathy for Ukrainians has nothing to do with the Ukrainian people's livelihood; the West has its panties in a bunch because the failed EU deal would've opened Ukraine's markets to Western investment and corporations. Washington and Brussels don't give a shit about the Maidan protesters, they care about Bank of America, Citibank, and Deutsche Bank's lost investment opportunities. Such is how the world works, but even more than the unfairness of that, it's the hypocrisy of it that gets on my goddamn nerves.
> Right though, this isn't a political thread, so I'm also putting a time-limit on my rant. :laughing:
> 
> Back to the topic at hand: everything you've written here makes me certain you're a core 1w2. Even though our mbti/jcf types are very different (INFJ vs. E_TJ, most likely), I can identify with the vast majority of what you wrote.


Thank you for your analysis! You cleared up a lot of the misconceptions I had about my "type 6 behavior", and I can confidently say now that I'm a type 1.


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> Then I would have to type at 8.
> 
> I'm Sx-first. Sp second. That in itself is intense


You shouldn't myopically interpret the vice and call it a day.


----------



## Bricolage

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Well obviously, you don't owe an explanation, but the deflection is cute.


Ha, that was my internal reaction to hearing that my questioning Ephem's type was shallow. I was too tired to formulate a response. Also, I don't know how asking good questions can be shallow, unless the person being asked is butthurt anyway and defensive about his type or fears mistyping. Would you get butthurt so easily if you're sure of your type??


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> Alot of people can relate to being intensity-driven without being 8s.


Almost everyone feels envy (four's vice) at some juncture as well. Just don't myopically interpret it.


----------



## Bricolage

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I don't buy your typing for shit, so expect to be told that. On that note, yes you are too reactive to be a core competency type. Kiss core 5 goodbye with that admission you made yourself.


Maybe. I don't really know Ephem IRL. Sx 5 and especially 548 can be pretty flipping reactive. 5w4 (reactive wing) and 4 and 8 as the heart and gut fix (both reactive). The 548 is probably the most reactive five; if not the most reactive competency type tritype combo IMO.


----------



## Animal

Bricolage said:


> Almost everyone feels envy (four's vice) at some juncture as well. Just don't myopically interpret it.





Bricolage said:


> You shouldn't myopically interpret the vice and call it a day.


That was exactly my point in responding to you. 
That you had a very simplistic definition of "lust" which - while I understand what you meant by it - I feel that definition could apply to other types, and thus confuse people.

I was trying to lean away from the myopic interpretation you provided.

So we are actually in agreement.


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> That was exactly my point in responding to you.
> That you had a very simplistic definition of "lust" which - while I understand what you meant by it - I feel that definition could apply to other types, and thus confuse people.
> 
> I was trying to lean away from the myopic interpretation you provided.
> 
> So we are actually in agreement.


The simplistic definition of lust is the one SOM presented - lust confined to sexuality and physicality. If you read up on type 8 you'll find lust extends beyond that.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

So! As some of you might've noticed, I'm trying Type 7 out for a spin. Mostly because all this talk amongst the Sixes about trust and how they didn't trust people and how they made a big deal about people being trustworthy...didn't resonate with me, at all really. :/ 

I mean, I've had periods where I conceive of the worst-case scenarios of things, but I don't think I do it as often or as zealously as an actual Type 6. 

So...thoughts, anyone?


----------



## Animal

Bricolage said:


> The simplistic definition of lust is the one SOM presented - lust confined to sexuality and physicality. If you read up on type 8 you'll find lust extends beyond that.


I know. 
I think you're taking my post the wrong way.

I've read Naranjo, Maitri, R&H, Palmer, and Rhodes, at least one book, sometimes multiple books by each author from front to back. I've also read parts of enneagram books by other authors such as Daniels. Beyond that i've been involved in three different online enneagram communities for three years and a community of people in a great college who were into enneagram and applying it in real life, exchanging books and discussing. I'm not some n00b. I was making the point that based on that definition, I would be an 8 - and clearly I am not.


----------



## Bricolage

[No message]


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> I was making the point that based on that definition, I would be an 8 - and clearly I am not.


Again, that's myopic because I never said only go by the vice when determining your type.


----------



## Animal

Bricolage said:


> You were kinda being a catty bitch. Anyway, lust as intensity or lust for power is a more accurate definition than plain sexual lust. That's a fact.


Catty bitch? Wow lol. 

If elaborating, disagreeing, or expanding on a definition is catty, how would you suggest someone should behave on a forum used to discuss a theory?


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> Catty bitch? Wow lol. You are sensitive.
> 
> If elaborating, disagreeing, or expanding on a definition is catty, how would you suggest someone should behave on a forum used to discuss a theory?


I mean, what you're doing amounts to trolling. I'll highlight the snarky points for you. It's very one-upsmanship and catty. 



> _That was exactly my point in responding to you. _
> _That *you had a very simplistic definition of "lust" *which - while I understand what you meant by it - I feel that definition could apply to other types, and thus confuse people._
> 
> _I was trying to lean away from* the myopic interpretation you provided.*_
> 
> *So we are actually in agreement.*


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *Edit:* actually come to think of it, comparing you to Cosmic is a good idea (because she is INTJ and either 8w7 or 7w8 with an insanely strong wing).












No offense man, but Cosmic ain't an INTJ. The Ni PoLR is strong in her.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Bricolage said:


> 258s are the ambivalent/rejection triad types


I thought that 6 was the stereotypically ambivalent type??

I disagree with accelator-kun for no logical reason. Why exactly is she Ni-polr??


----------



## Aha

Bricolage said:


> More the latter. I'm interested in other people's perceptions more accurately. I'm positive of my tritype and >90% sure of my MBTI type. I more or less let Socionics wither and die. I care less about that formulation.


Guessing game? I love games! I did not see much of your posts. Let's see how the hunch goes

ENTP 8w9 7w6 3w4/4w3? sx


----------



## Bricolage

Sixty Nein said:


> I thought that 6 was the stereotypically ambivalent type??


If one type would be it would probably be an average psychological health six, yes. 258s are identified as the ambivalent types because of their ambivalence towards the nurturing figure or father-protective figure (or both in the case of type 5) in childhood.


----------



## Bricolage

Sixty Nein said:


> I thought that 6 was the stereotypically ambivalent type??


With an eight being a rep of the ambivalent/rejection triad, it's an ambivalence or hot-cold relationship early on with the nurturing figure.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Sixty Nein said:


> I disagree with accelator-kun for no logical reason. Why exactly is she Ni-polr??


I've noticed that while she discussed with Flatliner, don't recall the exact thread, but it was clear that she didn't want to deal with Ni based information. Anyway forgot to mention that agree that she's Te-Fi, just of the Si-Ne variant.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Blue Flare said:


> I've noticed that while she discussed with Flatliner, don't recall the exact thread, but it was clear that she didn't want to deal with Ni based information. Anyway forgot to mention that agree that she's Te-Fi, just of the Si-Ne variant.


Well that says nothing.



Bricolage said:


> With an eight being a rep of the ambivalent/rejection triad, it's an ambivalence or hot-cold relationship early on with the nurturing figure.


Interesting.


----------



## Sina

Bricolage said:


> It's complicated. The 258s are the ambivalent/rejection triad types and 5s and 8s are sensitive to signs of rejection and fear losing contact for totally different reasons than a 6. The 8 wouldn't want to get taken advantage of emotionally after letting his guard down and the 5 wouldn't want to expend all the time/energy and get the fuzzy end of the lollipop. Sp/So 8s are similar to 5s in that Sp/So 8s would rather you prove yourself before giving you their real attention and precious time. And I mean yeah any type can be short-tempered lol.


Lol I know what the rejection triad is and implies. XD

The fear of rejection is very different from the fear of betrayal. 2s are a rejection type that falls in the positive outlook triad and doesn't have the 8 or 6's triggering sensitivity to betrayal. Although, 2s do feel that they would be rejected if they didn't make themselves indispensable. Again, this is not the same as betrayal.

Rejection-reactive (8), rejection-competency (5) and attachment-reactive (6) types process rejection and betrayal differently, although reactivity (concern with where people stand, knowing who is worthy of trust and isn't--- hence the preoccupation with betrayal is not associated with the core of type 5 and 2 of the rejection traid) has overlaps in 6s and 8s, with some similarities extending to 4s. 

5s tend to experience an overarching sense of isolation (being on the sidelines of life, causing them to feel rejected) as well as detachment, and they counter the helplessness brought on by this perception, by hoarding knowledge. 8s feel excluded from sharing in the humanity of others, since they deny their own vulnerability unconsciously. They believe that vulnerability would get them rejected, particularly when their guard is down, and taken advantage of. This is counteracted by their psychological hardening. 

In a way, rejection triaders, each bring a sort of "skill" to the table, to distance themselves from the feeling of having been rejected. With 2s, it's their "giving" - even if through charm and seduction. 5s gather and bring forth expertise, competence and knowledge. 8s do the same with strength and protectiveness. 

All of this, while "complicated", is not identical to an 8 or 6s concern with betrayal. I've elucidated, at least, one of the differences in my previous post.


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> Guessing game? I love games! I did not see much of your posts. Let's see how the hunch goes
> 
> ENTP 8w9 7w6 3w4/4w3? sx


I should have known "game" was the perfect dangled carrot for an ENTP. :laughing:

Why do you say 8 and Sx? I'll say, to further perpetuate this game lol, that you guessed 2/3 parts of my tritype correctly.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Sixty Nein said:


> Well that says nothing.


Well, in general I don't see anything like Ni-Se in her posts, mostly TeSi.


----------



## Bricolage

Blue Flare said:


> Well, in general I don't see anything like Ni-Se in her posts, mostly TeSi.


How does one see Si in a series of posts exactly?


----------



## Bricolage

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> hence the preoccupation with betrayal is not associated with the core of type 5 and 2 of the rejection traid


That's a nice way of putting it IMO. Yeah, I wouldn't say 5s fret about impending betrayal all that much. The isolation of an average/unhealthy 5 goes hand in hand with rejection or the expectation of non-reciprocity.


----------



## Sina

Bricolage said:


> That's a nice way of putting it IMO. Yeah, I wouldn't say 5s fret about impending betrayal all that much.


Pretty much. 

@_Blue Flare_

I type at ESTJ lol, could see ENTJ as a possibility. I don't think I am an INTJ, although I did consider it and type as such a while back. I wouldn't call it completely absurd as a typing, but it no longer resonates with me. I am also not invested enough in JCF to delve into its abstractions further and make an argument either way lol.


----------



## Aha

Bricolage said:


> I should have known "game" was the perfect dangled carrot for an ENTP. :laughing:
> 
> Why do you say 8 and Sx? I'll say, to further perpetuate this game lol, that you guessed 2/3 parts of my tritype correctly.


As I said, a hunch 
What 1/3 I did not guess?

As for the 8: Because you write in the 8 forum. For fun? I do not know. From what I read in this thread, you have quite an understanding of the lust and what it really means. Maybe you are 9w8 (or even 7w8) though. Or a member of 8 fanclub.

Sx. You are demisexual. I can only see demis as Sx. They are fantasizers of an ideal partner, emotional connection, lightsabers, etc.

edit: although 90% of surety is not confident enough. You are how many years on this forum?


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Bricolage said:


> How does one see Si in a series of posts exactly?


You could spot the Ne, and if there's Ne then Si is also by default, or notice that there's something abstract but that's based in sensory stuff, like the person sees something like a house or a car and links that to an idea, like it reminds of something personal. I can't explain this well as I'm not a Si type, but I've noticed that nostalgia can be related to it, stuff like comparing food to the food that your parents cooked many years ago. Anyway what I understand is that they compare sensory stuff to their own database of sensations.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Blue Flare said:


> Well, in general I don't see anything like Ni-Se in her posts, mostly TeSi.


Well okai, you might want to explain the reason as to why you believe that her egotical perspective is TeSi instead of assuming that everyone knows exactly what you are talking about.

As for me personally? I just sort of see her as refering to things into what things are in the present moment (Se), what is the point of something (Ni/or maybe thinking I guess. *Shrug*) and the actual factual relationships to things without really disagreeing with it (Te). As such it is likely that she is either an ESTp an ENTj or an INTp because of these actualities.

I mean I just don't see anything about her that has this "my perception is reality" or anything that is particularly experiential that refers to the self that much. Maybe I just don't pay attention to that, but whatever. It is likely to me that she is either a Te type, or a Ni type. I cannot see her intuition being at all archaic if I think about it, but whatever.

See. This is what I mean, I don't require a bunch of fucking quotes. Just sort of explain your point. I don't even know whether or not my Si definition is right or not. It's a nonsense function to me, it doesn't make sense and I literally can't parse the true nature of it's being. It's as eldritch and arcane to me as the scribblings of lovecraftian lore.


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> edit: although 90% of surety is not confident enough. You are how many years on this forum?


Well, you see, more time gives me more time to think and lowers the percentage. :laughing:

It's not good to be 100% about anything. That's religion's gambit.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Sixty Nein said:


> Well okai, you might want to explain the reason as to why you believe that her egotical perspective is TeSi instead of assuming that everyone knows exactly what you are talking about.
> 
> As for me personally? I just sort of see her as refering to things into what things are in the present moment (Se), what is the point of something (Ni) and the actual factual relationships to things without really disagreeing with it (Te). As such it is likely that she is either an ESTp an ENTj or an INTp because of these actualities.
> 
> I mean I just don't see anything about her that has this "my perception is reality" or anything that is particularly experiential that refers to the self that much. Maybe I just don't pay attention to that, but whatever. It is likely to me that she is either a Te type, or a Ni type. I cannot see her intuition being at all archaic if I think about it, but whatever.
> 
> See. This is what I mean, I don't require a bunch of fucking quotes. Just sort of explain your point. I don't even know whether or not my Si definition is right or not. It's a nonsense function to me, it doesn't make sense and I literally can't parse the true nature of it's being. It's as eldritch and arcane to me as the scribblings of lovecraftian lore.


I agree that she refers to facts and external systems, and I would say that it's her main way of dealing with information. However I think that the sensory stuff that she refers has a personal tint to it, specially when she mentions her own experiences (Si), while her intuition is objective (I think that's what you see as present oriented, but doesn't smell sensory to me) and seems like has an starting point and branches from it (Ne).

Anyway I agree that Si doesn't really make sense. I've tried to understand it but failed in the process, so I just interact with my Si relatives for trying to get a general idea of that function, which grates my nerves as well.


----------



## Aha

Bricolage said:


> Well, you see, more time gives me more time to think and lowers the percentage. :laughing:
> 
> It's not good to be 100% about anything. That's religion's gambit.


It is always 99.999999% for me. 0.000001 I leave for an asteroid of an argument

Oh well, maybe 99%


----------



## mimesis

@Sixty Nein

You don't need quotes because of the Ni-Ti short-circuit. Hence "...but whatever".

Since you think Ne is present oriented, do you also see financial investors or speculators and stock brokers as typically Ni?

(on closer examination, you mentioned Se as being present oriented, so never mind)


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> p.s. The Sx fuckin seethes and flows like there's no tomorrow. Yes. lol.


Heh-heh, Sx flow. :tongue:

​That was terrible I'm sorry.


----------



## Sina

Chained Divinity said:


> Heh-heh, Sx flow. :tongue:
> 
> ​That was terrible I'm sorry.


Bahahaha not at all. :laughing:
It GUSHES forth. XD


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Bahahaha not at all. :laughing:
> It GUSHES forth. XD


It _penetrates_ the soul with the _white light_ of spiritual intensity. :tongue:


----------



## 0+n*1

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> That obviously reads as a deliberate exaggeration of a certain aspect of ones personality to come across a certain way.  If you are saying now that you meant it came across as exaggerated because of the passion with which I express myself, sure.
> 
> I get where that may have come from. *We didn't know each other*, and I express myself passionately and intensely. Even IRL, I am often told I seem angry when I am not. So, I ooze intensity or what would be considered Sx in Enneagram. My point in addressing these perceptions is to illuminate typer bias, since there's a lot of talk about typees skewing questionnaires one way or the other. In that vein, I want to elaborate on what was going on in my mind and the effort I placed into making the questionnaire comprehensive and well-rounded, covering as many key aspects of my being as possible
> 
> Also, no, I am not concerned with your impression of me being negative or anything. It's a typing discussion. Nothing personal.


That's not what I meant but I wrote it with words that conveyed it. 

The bolded part is what I'm trying to get to. I don't know you, so I just have impression to guide me to know you. I know they are just impressions and I always make it clear that they are, so I don't make decisive perceptions on you who are based on that. I now know that you made an effort to be the most objective possible. I try to be objective too but sometimes I get caught up in an emotion instead of looking at everything. That's why I mentioned too that I shouldn't say people do it (get caught up) but that I do it because I know people that try to keep that self-consistency (and objective perspective too, a more unbiased (I only said more unbiased because I think we're inherently subjective, but this is more a belief I hold in general and nothing to do with you or anyone in specific; in fact, it's more about me, which makes it kinda ironic)). I know it's not personal and I know you're not concerned with my impressions of you that are negative. I don't have negative impressions about you though. In general, I think you're very mature and confident. Those traits are things I look up to. I just wanted to address this and I think it's good that it made you address some old issues (the ones where people think you are just trying to appear someway when your intention was to be honest and you're honestly intense).

I want to add that it was my mistake to say that it was because you got cought up in your aggressivity or that I go caught up in my conception of your aggressivity. It's the latter. I caught me there and I tried to say that I shouldn't generalize but I left the original message anyway. I also said that I was exaggerating and pretending to be something I wasn't but I didn't mean to imply that all exaggerations are pretension, even if I think that way sometimes. Your "exaggeration" is more of an exaggeration from my part.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> This is followed by the most exquisite description of the female orgasm in Literature. Hell, it's Coleridge. That's the least we can expect.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
> As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
> A mighty fountain momently was forced:
> Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
> Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
> Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:
> And mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
> It flung up momently the sacred river...


I don't get it.


----------



## Sina

@Mr.Rbtoo

I understand. 
Also, I didn't say your impressions of me were negative but that I didn't perceive them as negative.


----------



## 0+n*1

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_Mr.Rbtoo_
> 
> I understand.
> Also, I didn't say your impressions of me were negative but that I didn't perceive them as negative.


You want to know something funny and embarrassing. I was shaking (kinda, my heart was racing a little) while discussing this with you. But I didn't want misunderstandings. This happens everytime I am having some kind of discussion with anyone. I say I know it's not personal but my emotions just go defensive. I am at least aware of that.


----------



## Sina

Mr.Rbtoo said:


> You want to know something funny and embarrassing. I was shaking (kinda, my heart was racing a little) while discussing this with you. But I didn't want misunderstandings. This happens everytime I am having some kind of discussion with anyone. I say I know it's not personal but my emotions just go defensive. I am at least aware of that.


*hugs* It's not embarrassing. You are among the most self-aware people here. Not for that reason specifically, but I sometimes still wonder if you are a 4.  Next time we discuss things, I am pretty sure the shaking would be negligible. <3 I think I take some getting used to lol.


----------



## 0+n*1

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> *hugs* It's not embarrassing. You are among the most self-aware people here. Not for that reason specifically, but I sometimes still wonder if you are a 4.  Next time we discuss things, I am pretty sure the shaking would be negligible. <3 I think I take some getting used to lol.


Thanks, that's a nice compliment (the self-aware part). I don't think I'm as self-aware as I should be but I'm working on it. Enough of lies. I want truth.


----------



## mimesis

Nonsense said:


> I don't get it.


Ne double entendre?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

mimesis said:


> Ne double entendre.


My Ne was not aroused. :sad:


----------



## mimesis

Nonsense said:


> My Ne was not aroused. :sad:


Intuition is imagination. Arousal is sensation.


----------



## Psithurism

mimesis said:


> Intuition is imagination. Arousal is sensation.


Intuition is key to the most ethereal arousal possible. Must combine the best of both worlds.
@_Sixty Nein_ understands this more than anyone on this forum. He has seen the light.


----------



## Bricolage

Nonsense said:


> My Ne was not aroused. :sad:


Your Ne didn't get wet just now??


----------



## mimesis

Desire said:


> Intuition is key to the most ethereal arousal possible. Must combine the best of both worlds.
> @_Sixty Nein_ understands this more than anyone on this forum. He has seen the light.


Intuition is also key to projection and paranoia.


----------



## Psithurism

mimesis said:


> Intuition is also key to projection and paranoia.


Mhm. To say the least. 

Sensing isn't all so good sometimes too. For example, I find the possibility of dying from overindulgence a bit of a bummer.


----------



## Paradigm

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I think I take some getting used to lol.


I still have to remind myself that you deal with non-positive things quite well. Most of the people I'm around don't, so it requires a bit of a perspective adjustment. It's very refreshing, though!


----------



## mimesis

Desire said:


> Mhm. To say the least.
> 
> Sensing isn't all so good sometimes too. For example, I find the possibility of dying from overindulgence a bit of a bummer.


Well whatever you say. I'm equanimous towards functions. Just try to understand them. As far as my own functions are concerned, that's what I'm going to have to do it with.

So...is there a point you are trying to make?


----------



## Psithurism

mimesis said:


> I'm equanimous towards functions.


Same. I value people for who they are, not which functions they use.



> So...is there a point you are trying to make?


Not at this moment, no. Perhaps my teasing was too subtle.


----------



## mimesis

Desire said:


> Same. I value people for who they are, not which functions they use.
> 
> Not at this moment, no. Perhaps my teasing was too subtle?


I was just referring to Jung who assigns affect (the perception and awareness of bodily inner-vations) to the realm of Sensation. Both intuition and sensation can trigger arousal. However the physical perception of arousal is sensation. 

Also, like with empathy, it's harder when you don't have experience that relates to it (and as a man I project my experience of women, not as), to trigger arousal, as Si can make someone almost relive the experience. For INFPs this is the combination of creative imagination of concrete intuition and introverted sensing.


----------



## mimesis

Animal said:


> Rant
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. I forgot how much I hate self-reporting and arguing about my type. It's been a while.. lol. From now on I will try to just take observations and suggestions. I don't mind any suggestion, no type is offensive, etc, but I just go nuts when I feel like my motives are being misinterpreted or I'm not being seen the way I think I actually am, and I go way overboard trying to explain how I think I actually am, which leads to 4 pages of posts and much more focus and attention than I intended. :/ For instance, I don't mind if someone says "I think you're a 7 because you're flamboyant" since I am flamboyant, but if someone says "I think you are a 4 because you are catty" - I'm going to start explaining myself like "I'm not catty! my intention wasn't catty!" and protesting even though I agree with the number.
> 
> 2. I get frustrated by my lack of ability to self-report in a meaningful way and how I lose myself on details, and then I end up being cranky toward people who are trying to help me.  Sorry for that. I really do appreciate it. I just suck at self-reporting and explaining, I try to do it anyway, and then I get more and more upset and frustrated by things I'm not willing to share in public and I probably don't explain myself well which wastes people's time. I get reactive about my own idea of being misinterpreted and I don't mean to. I'm also in a bad mood right now so this was the absolute worst time to have this conversation.
> 
> 3. I really really do appreciate all insights and I don't mind if I'm good friends with someone who has a different opinion about my type than I do, but understands who I am. In that case I don't balk. And all of you trying to understand and offering opinions and hearing me out, I really appreciate it a lot <3 <3
> 
> 
> 4. One thing that is hard for me is having to lay out the way I think.. which is not that obvious. For instance, "flaws." It's not that I rationalize my flaws away, it's that I truly do not think of flaws as being separate from assets. I don't believe in absolute good or absolute evil. I don't believe in an absolute flaw or an absolute asset. I see every facet of a person as part of the whole, and I can't separate them into categories with a clear conscience because it's not being true to my world-view. That doesn't mean that I re-interpret my "flaws" as "assets," it means that I simply acknowledge my qualities for better or worse but I AM the whole package. Would I like to change some things? Yes, but then I would lose other things. There is no way to spin my "frustration at self reporting" into a good quality- it is based in bad writing skills, lacking self-awareness on some level or inability to communicate it, being hung up on petty things, over-explaining for a need to be understood.. there is nothing good about this. But it's part of who I am so I feel like I can't pick out that one thing and just discard it. Then I would lose a chunk of who I am which would affect other things. So instead I just get upset with myself in general, rather than specifically my "flaws."
> 
> 5. None of my posts today were intended to make a type case, I was just trying to be honest, type aside. Hope that came across.
> 
> 6. I'm also going through some major bullshit Irl so this was probably the worst possible time for me to start engaging in something that I know I'm terrible at and frustrated by.
> 
> 7. I'm probably posting a lot less the next few days because I need to get back to writing. Thanks everyone for caring & putting up with me when I'm so annoying.


Really, I think you've explained it very well.

The problem is when someone identifies with merely either potential, or flaws. In both cases it results in alienation, and an inaccurate view of oneself. A grandiose self image, holding up a perfect image, and hide vulnerabilities in fear of rejection, or overly self-conscious, anticipating disapproval or abandonment, while not aware or underestimating potential. 
@Doll
Fear of success. This sounds weird, but the posibility of a successfull outcome can trigger fear, comparable with traumatic conditioning, leading to (self) destructive behavior or sabotage. There was a thread on this topic a while ago, and I posted a link with more info on that.


----------



## Animal

mimesis said:


> Really, I think you've explained it very well.
> 
> The problem is when someone identifies with merely either potential, or flaws. In both cases it results in alienation, and an inaccurate view of oneself. A grandiose self image, holding up a perfect image, and hide vulnerabilities in fear of rejection, or overly self-conscious, anticipating disapproval or abandonment, while not aware or underestimating potential.
> @_Doll_
> Fear of success. This sounds weird, but the posibility of a successfull outcome can trigger fear, comparable with traumatic conditioning, leading to (self) destructive behavior or sabotage. There was a thread on this topic a while ago, and I posted a link with more info on that.


 I have been accused many times by people who actually know me, of success inhibition. It's true- I want things desperately, but I am afraid to let anything really matter because I'm afraid of losing it in the end, so I self-sabatoge and push/pull when I feel close to actually having something that I really want. In my case I'm not sure it's type related or if it's related to having lost everything that ever mattered to me, each time I start to come close to something, and thus feeling like it's pointless to try when the illness just takes everything away. Others have accused me of success inhibition, self-sabatoge tendencies etc. I have argued and said no… it's PTSD. I really don't know. Perfect example of why typing me is hard.

To add my own commentary about type 7, I do have one contradiction that I feel may be 7ish - I have a mixture of extreme passion, empathy, emotion and hunger, with detachment and objectivity. I could see it being explained by type 7, from one angle. I still type at 4, as this is not enough to persuade me from my many other reasons for feeling its 4 over 7. But it's far from an absurd suggestion, even if I nitpicked some of the nuances in things that were mentioned here.


----------



## Animal

ephemereality said:


> @_Animal_ I'll poke you again to answer my question because I'm in a highly introspective phase and strongly value people's opinions on how i come across right now.


Will do very soon when my head is clear.


----------



## hal0hal0

Animal said:


> My hatred/sadness/loneliness/pain are potential ways to understand myself. They are potential material for songs. *That doesn't mean I like them.* That doesn't mean I don't think I'm weak or pathetic for lingering on certain things or feeling a certain way. It just means that _owning_ these things creates potential of some sort. Something I can call my own, in all its beauty and wretchedness.


Ugh, yes, this is where I think Naranjo's descriptions are looking at very, very pronounced and exaggerated manifestations of each type. A 4 isn't a "masochist" in the sense that it loves its pain (sure possible in a Stockholm Syndrome-ish sort of way... as @_mimesis_ was saying, conditioning to expect failure or expect deficiency, which may produce a repulsion to the "good" image (i.e., 4's reactivity)... but that doesn't mean I _*like*_ "pain" per se). It's just that... why pretend that pain or dissonance doesn't exist?

"Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse?" for you mimesis (I still think Nebraska is my favorite album of his, but The River and Darkness are the other two... the trifecta!)





All it means, to me, is that feelings are like the weather---If I'm sad, I'm sad. If I'm happy I'm happy (this isn't to say you are powerless and a complete slave to emotion; sure you can cheer yourself up if you so choose... but, feelings exist... there are highs and lows; I cannot pretend they do not exist... that would be self-amputation). You can let the rain make you hide indoors (which can be an adventure in its own right), or you can forge ahead on the path in spite of that rain... maybe even embrace it to some extent. Your choice.


----------



## Animal

hal0hal0 said:


> All it means, to me, is that feelings are like the weather---If I'm sad, I'm sad. If I'm happy I'm happy (this isn't to say you are powerless and a complete slave to emotion; sure you can cheer yourself up if you so choose... but, feelings exist... there are highs and lows; I cannot pretend they do not exist... that would be self-amputation). You can let the rain make you hide indoors (which can be an adventure in its own right), or you can forge ahead on the path in spite of that rain... maybe even embrace it to some extent. Your choice.


Yes! This is exactly what I meant at the end of that post, when I said:



> If we are talking about my feelings that come and go, that's a different matter, and not as much a matter of outlook.



Exactly what I meant. Feelings are visceral. That just is. There's no two ways about it. It's a different matter from an outlook or a philosophy about feelings or a self-image.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

hal0hal0 said:


> Ugh, yes, this is where I think Naranjo's descriptions are looking at very, very pronounced and exaggerated manifestations of each type. A 4 isn't a "masochist" in the sense that it loves its pain (sure possible in a Stockholm Syndrome-ish sort of way... as @_mimesis_ was saying, conditioning to expect failure or expect deficiency, which may produce a repulsion to the "good" image (i.e., 4's reactivity)... but that doesn't mean I _*like*_ "pain" per se). It's just that... why pretend that pain or dissonance doesn't exist?
> 
> All it means, to me, is that feelings are like the weather---If I'm sad, I'm sad. If I'm happy I'm happy (this isn't to say you are powerless and a complete slave to emotion; sure you can cheer yourself up if you so choose... but, feelings exist... there are highs and lows; I cannot pretend they do not exist... that would be self-amputation). You can let the rain make you hide indoors (which can be an adventure in its own right), or you can forge ahead on the path in spite of that rain... maybe even embrace it to some extent. Your choice.


Hmmmm. I'm actually really curious about something, Halo. @Animal too, and why not @Doll ? XD

Have any of you ever had moments where you just couldn't _get_ the feeling that you used to have about something? Like, you do or see something that you always thought X of and suddenly you can't get that thought? 

If so, would you then try to make yourself feel the old way about it, because that's the feeling you've always identified with, or would you change your idea of yourself to reflect the immediate feelings?


----------



## Animal

Chained Divinity said:


> Hmmmm. I'm actually really curious about something, Halo. @_Animal_ too, and why not @_Doll_ ? XD
> 
> Have any of you ever had moments where you just couldn't _get_ the feeling that you used to have about something? Like, you do or see something that you always thought X of and suddenly you can't get that thought?
> 
> If so, would you then try to make yourself feel the old way about it, because that's the feeling you've always identified with, or would you change your idea of yourself to reflect the immediate feelings?


Hmm. Not really sure I can answer this. My feelings either are, or aren't. I don't… expect or anticipate them, I guess? And usually I'm thrilled to discover that I am no longer burdened by feelings for an ex or something. Like if I see someone who broke my heart in the past and I no longer feel a 'flurry' in my heart, I'm like .. yay I'm free!

But usually I have the same feelings about the same things for far longer than I should. It's very hard for me to get over anything that has touched me deeply. A lot of things don't matter, but when something really gets in, it's in.. it's part of me. I get overly attached. And it triggers the same things.

For instance I still feel exactly the same for my ex that I dated 18 years ago. I really loved him. However I'm not attracted or affected whatsoever by my ex that I was with for much longer and broke up with a few years ago. This doesn't bother me. It is what it is.

Feelings I get with music, tend to happen over and over, but I pick the right music for my mood. I have experimented with inducing a mood using music. It works. I'm very music-sensitive. But I prefer the music to reflect the mood I'm already in. I make mix tapes with my gut, almost without thinking - I just put the next song and the next, following my heart - and it ends up telling a visceral emotional story and working me through some emotions around that type of feeling. Any time I listen to it, I go through it all over again, even many years later.

In this sense I've created emotional maps of my past which I can induce and navigate through artwork, music, ideas. Even if my reactions to the same thing might alter slightly, they are often the same basic reaction.

Does that answer it?


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Animal said:


> Hmm. Not really sure I can answer this. My feelings either are, or aren't. I don't… expect or anticipate them, I guess? And usually I'm thrilled to discover that I am no longer burdened by feelings for an ex or something. Like if I see someone who broke my heart in the past and I no longer feel a 'flurry' in my heart, I'm like .. yay I'm free!
> 
> But usually I have the same feelings about the same things for far longer than I should. It's very hard for me to get over anything that has touched me deeply. A lot of things don't matter, but when something really gets in, it's in.. it's part of me. I get overly attached. And it triggers the same things.
> 
> For instance I still feel exactly the same for my ex that I dated 18 years ago. I really loved him. However I'm not attracted or affected whatsoever by my ex that I was with for much longer and broke up with a few years ago. This doesn't bother me. It is what it is.
> 
> Feelings I get with music, tend to happen over and over, but I pick the right music for my mood. I have experimented with inducing a mood using music. It works. I'm very music-sensitive. But I prefer the music to reflect the mood I'm already in. I make mix tapes with my gut, almost without thinking - I just put the next song and the next, following my heart - and it ends up telling a visceral emotional story and working me through some emotions around that type of feeling. Any time I listen to it, I go through it all over again, even many years later.
> 
> In this sense I've created emotional maps of my past which I can induce and navigate through artwork, music, ideas. Even if my reactions to the same thing might alter slightly, they are often the same basic reaction.
> 
> Does that answer it?


I think so. Your attitude is actually very different from mine then. XD

There have been times, I think, when I've pursued someone or done something in the moment even as I realized "Hey, wait a minute, I don't even actually care about this person/thing anymore!", because ultimately, if I don't care about that/them, then I wouldn't be me anymore. And if I'm not me, well...what am I? Someone who can't do what I can do? I can't allow that...

And so on and so forth. XD It sounds kind of three-ish now that I look at it...XD


----------



## Animal

@_Paradigm_
I wanted to share this with you, re: putting self on display ( you made me think! roud
- I just wrote these VM's to @_Chained Divinity_ and I thought it explained the display stuff in clearer words - also @_justanotherperson_ thanks for the conversation earlier which inspired me to put this into words.

Disclaimer: this is not a 4 or 7 case, just an explanation of my view point about displaying myself, though it was sparked by a question about 4 integration, hence the framing.


* *





I can't even imagine not suffering. It's unfathomable to me. I know that no matter what I have, I will always look back on my past and wish things were different. I know that no matter what life gives me, it will take something away. And, I feel like suffering is what gives me the impetus to strive for something more. It is also what allows me to appreciate my small victories.

I'm not depressed by a long shot. I don't exclusively "suffer" - but I feel all of my emotions very strongly, even if I have a detached way of discussing them.

But yeah - I know what you mean. Integration is in the doing, the way I see it. Integration comes with making it happen, doing something physical. Will power. Having the will power and strength to do something, to make something physical out of it, to share it.

I don't need to see myself reflected and understood by a group as much as just one person, but I guess the reason I mention a group is that I have "done something" when I become a symbol of myself. My art is a symbol of me, and my life is art.

People want me to _do_ art, but they don't want me to _be_ art. They love my music, my artwork, my writing, or even if it's not their style, they respect me for doing it. The minute I'm wearing expressive clothing or talking about myself and my poetic interpretation of my life (for better or worse) it is interpreted as "weird," "moping," "over-dramatizing," "bragging," "self-glorifying," "self-pitying." I get it - because modesty is NOT talking about yourself, and talking about your glory or your wretchedness is still putting yourself on display.

The thing is, I can't just DO art. I AM art. This is not even coming from me - this is something that a few people throughout my life have told me, and i even have two acquaintences from two different times and places in my life, who call me "art" instead of using my name.

If I speak poetically about my life, though, then I'm putting myself on display; I'm weird, bizarre, immodest. If I write poetry and publish it in a magazine, then I'm a poet. This is a division I cannot make, however. To me, art is life and life is art. The two are not separate. Integration comes with not only creating art but embodying art, being myself, doing what it takes to display myself as I feel I truly am, to communicate.








/end ramble FOR REAL THIS TIME ;D


----------



## Sina

@_Animal_

*Lots to address:- *

Very illuminating talk (even if watching it unfold made me extremely fuckin impatient on several occasions lol), and I've saved portions for whenever I get to your type discussions. Fuck, that's a file of its own.  So, this should be good when I get on the task. I know that you appreciate any insights on your type, and I similarly appreciate yours and every second of your time when we've talked about mine and all the deeper issues. I remember our chat on vengeance, and there are things I haven't shared on the forum, but I chose to get them out in private. You had told me, and I realize it myself, that it hit the nail on the head where the 8's relationship with vengeance and innocence is concerned. That was another moment of "well damn..." might as well accept 8 influence instead of gravitating towards 1 (not core). 

On the subject for four-ness, this may be a more private talk, or maybe I should hurry up with adding @_Doll_ to Skype and talk to you both about some crucial areas where I relate to 4. There there are key areas where I sure as hell do not and never would, so luckily for the forum, I am not going to join the long line of wannabe Sx 4s here LOL. I want to start with the suffering point. I have strong opinions on this. 

*1)* I am not remotely "modest" about my past and what I've suffered and conquered. I don't have a modest bone in my body, therefore being modest about my experiences is fuckin unthinkable and laughable. This also has to do with genuine modesty requiring a wisdom I haven't learnt and don't even care to at this point LOL. I'll comment on this further below.

*2) Pain, Pride, Self Glorification, Buried Selves

*I glorify my past, my losses and triumphs like it's nobody's fuckin business. If I started talking about it, I'd make you look modest in comparison XD. The pride I feel in myself and my life cannot be adequately conveyed in words. I always had it, even as a child. As for suffering, I am very aware that there are people who've had it far worse, and gratitude has always been a huge part of my personal outlook, so I am grateful for all I have now and for what little I had once. This doesn't keep me from prioritizing my own pain (the concept if not the lived experience of the same because I don't dwell on it, although I indulge the shit out of it when I do process it and breathe art and fire) over most people's, particularly considering how much they blow shit out of proportion. I don't appreciate people overinflating their grief and expecting be privileged when they haven't dealt with shit. True grief and true vulnerability are things I am receptive to.
_
I never forget the living conditions of millions living under occupation, as I once had_. I never forget the *suffering* of my deprived, abused, exploited, starving children the world over, that I can't in my lifetime do enough to pull out of their misery and empower with the resources needed to fight their way through life, but I will fuckin try and give it my best to make things better for as many as I can. They are my flesh and blood. Their suffering is mine. Everything else, that isn't genuine and of importance, I treat with mocking disdain. At the core, I see myself, my idealized self (every type has an idealization pattern) as beyond glorious and vastly superior than others, albeit not morally per se. Though, I damn well know I am outspoken as fuck and don't stand an ounce of injustice or the abuse of innocence. Anyway, as I was saying, I see myself as immeasurably more majestic (I could go on here lol) and formidable than the very very vast majority of people. I rarely talk about this, especially out of context, because it's lulz. Oh, I could fuckin erect monuments in my glory on city squares if I could, and I am only about half joking. XD 

Aside (off shoot of moral superiority point and a language point):- As my type 1 (ex and present day) lovers XD have put it eloquently, I am not a 'moral coward'. LMAO It's so kewt. I mention it since it remind me that...in my culture..the term "impotence" is often used for cowards and people seen as lacking integrity, but perhaps that is universal. 
_
Back to the "selves", I have selves that died and were resurrected._ I have parts of me buried under the charred corpses of strangers that just about choked me to sweet demise following bomb explosions. They swallowed many joys and shreds of vitality and spat hungers, passions and furies that will parch my heart and mind till I am buried in a sublime tomb beyond fit for an empress . Life is brutal and sumptuous for reasons like these and more. 

My life is split in several phrases marked by crises and exquisite conquests. Parts of me have died, and I am acutely aware of their violent ends and impending beginnings. Their ragged breaths are my solace. 

I used to perceive myself as invincible (which was directly related to the unconscious denial of vulnerability and eventually stunted my emotional growth as I discovered in therapy). I have always been confident and known that I could handle whatever came my way, so thriving despite suffering came as naturally as breathing. It took nothing away from me to realize I could get hurt and feel grief. This is the beauty of truth, of learning to acknowledge your own humanity before you do anyone else's. Mastery over life comes at a price, and it's worth every penny.  With therapy as I said and more, I've come to shed the delusion of invincibility (this was also very humanizing, and there isn't a lot out there worse than the pain of realizing you are not immune to pain) and learnt to embrace vulnerability, as difficult as it is, even though I regard and respect myself as well as my resilience, my past, present and future very highly. 

Btw, modesty is a beautiful thing and a sign of great wisdom as I was saying at the start. True modesty, however, not fake ass socially placating 'modesty'. Some day, yanno when i am 98, I might inculcate "modesty", but for now, I am happy being the insufferably proud bitch I am. 
*
3) Forum sharing of difficult pasts*

Where sharing on the forum is concerned, I don't like making a public spectacle of my past, especially the more painful aspects of it. I have talked about it a select number of times. It has nothing to do with flamboyance, which I have in spades XD. This whole forum sharing deal is multi-layered. 

Firstly, there are many other areas in my life where my deification of self *laughs* finds creative avenues and outlets where I can sublimate it to art and conversation and learning and just the sheer thrill of relishing in being all that-- especially when I am happy . 

Secondly, I don't like to be a broken fuckin record, repeating the same 10 billion times recycled bullshit about my past every chance I get. It's corny, hokey and annoying. Plus, I have no desire to cheapen my life by doing so. It's like yeah..i heard it the first time..now shut the fuck up. It's not about social expectations, but it's just common sense. Bleating on and on about it just comes across as very insecure and is. So, I naturally don't dig old graves every chance I get. 

Thirdly, I am a private person and while I have shared about my life here, there is a shit ton I have left out deliberately. I don't regret sharing anything here, with one exception that I will address below, or wish I could take it back because it's the fuckin internet. What you say here stays here.

Fourthly, as you know, responding to specific questions about my abusive past, which I thought were being asked to help with a typing and more importantly to foster a mature conversational connection between adults, led to the same information being used to disparage and pathologize me, going so far as to imply it was lies and more breaches of trust that I care to get into here, but you know all about it. That taught me a very important lesson about the presence of shit eating sewer crawlers on the internet who don't deserve to be privy to anyone's sharing of genuine vulnerability and past trauma or pain. 

It hasn't kept me from sharing as I see fit, though I do not overdo it for the various reasons enumerated above, of which humility isn't a part fwiw. Since that experience nearly 5 years ago, it has only been on a recent thread that some asshat was dumb and lame enough to take the time to desecrate a post I had made sharing the turmoil I faced over the death of a 26 year old cousin last year and more. While I may have come to expect there will be shitwits on the internet, fortunately they are few and far in between on this forum, as of now. Yet, it's just wise to be mindful of what you share, how and how often. Eyeroll worthy or very rash sharing is just insecure and immature, so it's best to steer clear of that. It still deserves mention that, by and large, this forum is a good place for talking about difficult experiences. I am glad I connected to you through yours. *hug*

I value the opportunity to vent /talk about my struggles with depression, relapsed PTSD and OCD on my occassional posts on the 6 forum in particular.  It can be tremendously healing give form to your thoughts and torments by laying them out in words, because then you have to face them as they are. I've made a few really challenging and personally painful posts on the 6 forum (and see, I am mindful of where I share it on the forum because some places here are frequented by more stupid assfucks than others). The 6 forum, by and large, has very down to earth and mature members. Thanks @_Paradigm_ for that super awesome venting thread. <3

So there we go, there was much to address. You always provoke thought. Thank you for the same, and thank you for being you.


----------



## Animal

@_Cosmic Orgasm_
I love you more than words can say and you are the best <3
Thank you for being understanding and giving me a place to be vulnerable in private too. It really is invaluable.

All points taken on sharing your suffering & so forth. It makes perfect sense, everything you said.
Great post!
big *hugs*


I have more specific things to say about the post a bit later. I just needed to say that for now. <3

I will edit it in later.


----------



## mimesis

Animal said:


> Yes! This is exactly what I meant at the end of that post, when I said:
> 
> 
> Exactly what I meant. Feelings are visceral. That just is. There's no two ways about it. It's a different matter from an outlook or a philosophy about feelings or a self-image.[/COLOR]


At the same time, feelings can be hyped, amplified and intensified. I know because I used to be a pretty fucking intense drama queen.


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> I love you more than words can say and you are the best <3
> Thank you for being understanding and giving me a place to be vulnerable in private too. It really is invaluable.


Words can't do justice to how much I adore and love you. YOU are invaluable <3. I don't take you for granted, and I don't take your vulnerability for any less than the immeasurably beautiful gift that it is.  It's my honour to share in yours and share mine with you. This transcends any discussion on typology or talks on the forum. It's amazing.



> All points taken on sharing your suffering & so forth. It makes perfect sense, everything you said.
> Great post!
> big *hugs*


*hugs back* 


> I have more specific things to say about the post a bit later. I just needed to say that for now. <3
> 
> I will edit it in later.


Anytime!
@_mimesis_

You are still a fuckin drama queen, babe. <3 And, how I love it. roud: Mwahaha Never change!


----------



## Bricolage

You're probably mistyped if the type you've selected doesn't relate to how you acted as a kid, before you knew about enneagram and starting mind [email protected]@ing yourself about your type. :tongue:


----------



## Bricolage

Wrong thread lol.


----------



## Sina

Bricolage said:


> Wrong thread lol.


lmao thought so


----------



## Bricolage

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> lmao thought so


Hahaha reposted in signs you may be mistyped thread.


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Words can't do justice to how much I adore and love you. YOU are invaluable <3. I don't take you for granted, and I don't take your vulnerability for any less than the immeasurably beautiful gift that it is.  It's my honour to share in yours and share mine with you. This transcends any discussion on typology or talks on the forum. It's amazing.


I feel the same…. :crying: :kitteh: words can never do it justice when I read these posts and my eyes just swell with tears… and I just …rgggg.. LOVE. I love <3

So many words written about love ,and never the ones to capture it in the moment…. .<3










hahahah I swear that isn't an 8-hint. ;D
(but I HADDddDDD to pick it for that reason)

muahahhahaha
nooo really my love for you is infinite <3
and I don't take it for granted either. I have even told my parents about you. My parents have met some of my friends at home because they are all over town lolol. But I hardly ever tell them about anyone unless they're going to meet them in person. It's just that you mean that much to me. <3



> *hugs back*


*squeeze*



> Anytime!
> @_mimesis_
> 
> You are still a fuckin drama queen, babe. <3 And, how I love it. roud: Mwahaha Never change!


Hhahaa 

yes I second that! Never change


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Animal @Cosmic Orgasm
sisterhood is so beautiful :kitteh:


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> If I understand you correctly, you basically measure @_Animal_ to yourself, assuming to be correctly typed and the norm(al) for withdrawn behavior. Therefor 7 seems more likely than 4, and 4w5 less likely than 4w3...
> 
> But I think the same argument could be applied to type you at 5.
> 
> If I remember correctly, you mentioned to relate more to schizoid, and not so much to paranoid behavioral patterns or personality features.


LOL I'm aware.

I made multiple posts here inviting anyone to comment on my type, the most recent one including reasons why 6 could be wrong. Unlike this conversation with @_Animal_, absolutely no one has bothered talking to me about it. 

As for why I don't type at 5 currently, the triads don't line up as nicely as they do with 6. I may be heavily "withdrawn," but even I don't know how much of that is innate or learned behavior. And when you compare ego (withdrawn) to superego (compliant), in me it's quite obviously superego > ego. I don't relate much to the rejection/power triad _at all _(2,5,8) -- it's the triad I relate least to out of all possible options. And I could be called competency if one squints, but if I was a part of that triad, I'd probably type at 1w9 before 5.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> I have been accused many times by people who actually know me, of success inhibition. It's true- I want things desperately, but I am afraid to let anything really matter because I'm afraid of losing it in the end, so I self-sabatoge and push/pull when I feel close to actually having something that I really want. In my case I'm not sure it's type related or if it's related to having lost everything that ever mattered to me, each time I start to come close to something, and thus feeling like it's pointless to try when the illness just takes everything away. Others have accused me of success inhibition, self-sabatoge tendencies etc. I have argued and said no… it's PTSD. I really don't know. Perfect example of why typing me is hard.


My God, almost every other post I read of yours makes me reconsider my 5w4 typing and go back to 4w5 but it's probably due to 5w4 and 4w5 having a lot of similarities.


* *




*Note: I'm not actually questioning my type but it's more that you so often seem to be saying what I'm actually thinking. :shocked:*


----------



## Bricolage

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> My God, almost every other post I read of yours makes me reconsider my 5w4 typing and go back to 4w5 but it's probably due to 5w4 and 4w5 having a lot of similarities.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Note: I'm not actually questioning my type but it's more that you so often seem to be saying what I'm actually thinking. :shocked:*



*Five* 
Scientific
Emotionally restrained
Objective
Aloof
Inner emptiness 
Detach from feelings
Bothered by feelings
Cerebral
Self-protective
Nihilistic
*
Four*
Artistic
Emotionally expressive
Subjective
Reactive
Inner pain
Identify with feelings
Welcome feelings
Romantic
Self-revealing
Melancholic​


----------



## Chesire Tower

Bricolage said:


> *Five*
> Scientific
> Emotionally restrained
> *Objective*
> Aloof
> *Inner emptiness
> Detach from feelings
> Bothered by feelings
> Cerebral
> Self-protective
> Nihilistic*
> *
> Four*
> *Artistic*
> Emotionally expressive
> Subjective
> Reactive
> *Inner pain*
> Identify with feelings
> Welcome feelings
> *Romantic*
> Self-revealing
> Melancholic​


Yes, thanks; I already know all this and relate to both - except that I neither identify with or welcome feelings. That's one of the ways that I think that @Animal and I differ. 
* *




As far as being self-revealing and emotionally expressive, I can do that on occasion, so I put those in blue font and I sure as hell don't welcome feelings - my own anyway.


 I also relate a lot to the So subtypes of both: 5 more than 4. I guess, based on (what I've bolded in ) this list; I am correctly typed.


----------



## Bricolage

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> I neither identify with or welcome feelings.


Yep, just based on that you're not a four lol.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Bricolage said:


> Yep, just based on that you're not a four lol.


So why do I relate so strongly to some of Animal's posts? it's as if you took away all of the emotional intensity, we would be on the same page.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ephemereality said:


> Possible, I can't speak for everyone. I have just become very aware of when and how I project.


I meant being your own worst poison. :tongue: I dunno about projection.


----------



## Animal

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> So why do I relate so strongly to some of Animal's posts? it's as if you took away all of the emotional intensity, we would be on the same page.


I relate strongly to @_Cosmic Orgasm_ on many things and we aren't the same type or stack
(unless we are both 7s but I highly doubt this)
i also relate to @_Arya_ very heavily and we see strikingly similarly on some things and only have one fix in common and she's much younger than me. 
I could go on about others. I relate strongly to @_Doll_ on many things as well and feel like she writes what I am thinking, but for now I would say we are most likely the same core 
I relate strongly to @justanotherperson in eerie ways but when we get to type related things it's like we do things backwards from each other but still similar 

its possible to relate strongly to a person but have a different type just because all of the fears and motivations are present in all of us and personal connection or "seeing yourself in them" can happen for a wide variety of reasons besides being the same type or even tritype.

there are some people I relate to strongly in that "type related way" 
ive learned to tell the difference but I'm not sure how to explain

sorry for format iPhone


----------



## petite libellule

Animal said:


> I relate strongly to @_Cosmic Orgasm_ on many things and we aren't the same type or stack
> (unless we are both 7s but I highly doubt this)


Animal I've said this once before but you and my irl INFP friend are so alike it's insane. She's 479. Have you considered 479 or 478? personally I think 471 might be a good guess for @Cosmic Orgasm but I wanted to give her a decent lengthy reply. Unfortunately I'm not able to post much longer. I'll FB why later. But. This statement gave me the opening to say it.  Even if you both think I'm nowhere close.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> there are some people I relate to strongly in that "type related way"
> ive learned to tell the difference but I'm not sure how to explain


I see what you mean but I think it's way more than that. It's really hard to put into words; the closest that I can even get remotely close to, is to say something along the lines of: "damn you; who let you into my head; stop saying exactly what I'm thinking cuz it's supposed to be private. LOL


----------



## Animal

ningsta kitty said:


> Animal I've said this once before but you and my irl INFP friend are so alike it's insane. She's 479. Have you considered 479 or 478? personally I think 471 might be a good guess for @_Cosmic Orgasm_ but I wanted to give her a decent lengthy reply. Unfortunately I'm not able to post much longer. I'll FB why later. But. This statement gave me the opening to say it.  Even if you both think I'm nowhere close.


I've typed at 478 for a long time - it's very hard for me to let go of the notion of 8 fix because of how deeply I see 8 stuff in myself through my life, and also knowing that some of the 1ish stuff has been coming out in spades LATELY but also that I'm in a much better place emotionally and it might be integration
On the other hand I do strongly see the case for 1
I have mulled over 9 but it just doesn't make sense.. I do have some 9ish stuff but I've always been quick to express anger and then it just goes away. I don't really "seethe" in anger. This is a much longer post I have to write at some point soon
But yeah.. 478 *feels* right to me though I know the 1 case is strong. It's not obvious I guess since sx-4s can "seem" 8ish and I have a line to 1 twice through 4 and 7. 9 still on the table but imo, unlikely. Though my family and exes would love if I had a 9 fix roud:


----------



## Animal

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> I see what you mean but I think it's way more than that. It's really hard to put into words; the closest that I can even get remotely close to, is to say something along the lines of: "damn you; who let you into my head; stop saying exactly what I'm thinking cuz it's supposed to be private. LOL


I feel this way about both Jeff Martin and Trent Reznor, though Trent, more so in my darker times. Trent is quite obviously a 5w4 and JM is likely a 4w5. lol. Though it used to piss me off when Trent Reznor broadcast my diary, stole my song titles, etc ;D


----------



## Entropic

Animal said:


> I've typed at 478 for a long time - it's very hard for me to let go of the notion of 8 fix because of how deeply I see 8 stuff in myself through my life, and also knowing that some of the 1ish stuff has been coming out in spades LATELY but also that I'm in a much better place emotionally and it might be integration
> On the other hand I do strongly see the case for 1
> I have mulled over 9 but it just doesn't make sense.. I do have some 9ish stuff but I've always been quick to express anger and then it just goes away. I don't really "seethe" in anger. This is a much longer post I have to write at some point soon
> But yeah.. 478 *feels* right to me though I know the 1 case is strong. It's not obvious I guess since sx-4s can "seem" 8ish and I have a line to 1 twice through 4 and 7. 9 still on the table but imo, unlikely. Though my family and exes would love if I had a 9 fix roud:


Yes. If one is going to apply tritype methodology to typing, then I think one _must_ consider that person's entire type connections within the enneagram. I think this is why I may appear superficially 5-ish. I know I have 5-like traits and mannerisms but I think this is because it's exacerbated because of my 5 fix and connection to 5. I do not however, relate to 5 motivations or issues. 

Re: Animal being a 9-fixer, I don't see it. I've spoken to her in private and I don't think she applies the narcotic logic of type 9 when dealing with anger and pain. 7w6 can also be very zany and positive. This is why behavior only says so much about people, especially when you don't know them intimately.


----------



## Aha

Animal said:


> I've typed at 478 for a long time - it's very hard for me to let go of the notion of 8 fix because of how deeply I see 8 stuff in myself through my life, and also knowing that some of the 1ish stuff has been coming out in spades LATELY but also that I'm in a much better place emotionally and it might be integration
> On the other hand I do strongly see the case for 1
> I have mulled over 9 but it just doesn't make sense.. I do have some 9ish stuff but I've always been quick to express anger and then it just goes away. I don't really "seethe" in anger. This is a much longer post I have to write at some point soon
> But yeah.. 478 *feels* right to me though I know the 1 case is strong. It's not obvious I guess since sx-4s can "seem" 8ish and I have a line to 1 twice through 4 and 7. 9 still on the table but imo, unlikely. Though my family and exes would love if I had a 9 fix roud:



* *

























Are you sure? Really? 1? No way! How do you relate to the 147?


----------



## petite libellule

Animal said:


> I've typed at 478 for a long time - it's very hard for me to let go of the notion of 8 fix because of how deeply I see 8 stuff in myself through my life, and also knowing that some of the 1ish stuff has been coming out in spades LATELY but also that I'm in a much better place emotionally and it might be integration
> On the other hand I do strongly see the case for 1
> I have mulled over 9 but it just doesn't make sense.. I do have some 9ish stuff but I've always been quick to express anger and then it just goes away. I don't really "seethe" in anger. This is a much longer post I have to write at some point soon
> But yeah.. 478 *feels* right to me though I know the 1 case is strong. It's not obvious I guess since sx-4s can "seem" 8ish and I have a line to 1 twice through 4 and 7. 9 still on the table but imo, unlikely. Though my family and exes would love if I had a 9 fix roud:


Well you said you relate to cosmic on so many levels. Maybe you're 1w9? I have to say it but that even makes more sense to me than 1w2. 471 but you both are different instincts of course and MBTI. But I think 47 for sure. I think 1w9 or 9 vs. 8. I kinda through in 8 because I know you tend to feel a closeness there. But don't see 8. What do you think ?


----------



## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> I feel this way about both Jeff Martin and Trent Reznor, though Trent, more so in my darker times. Trent is quite obviously a 5w4 and JM is likely a 4w5. lol. Though it used to piss me off when Trent Reznor broadcast my diary, stole my song titles, etc ;D


LOL, that's petty much my point. If I was talking about politics or a film that I liked and you happened to share the same opinion on that; it would not be the same thing. The reason I do an about face whenever I read one of your posts is because you are discussing generally, your emotions, fears and/or desires.

I can't think of the post offhand but there was one about intimacy and how you tend to withdraw from others and frequently get misunderstood because of it. It would not be too much of an exaggeration for me to state that I related to that post on almost a visceral level.


----------



## Entropic

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> LOL, that's petty much my point. If I was talking about politics or a film that I liked and you happened to share the same opinion on that; it would not be the same thing. The reason I do an about face whenever I read one of your posts is because you are discussing generally, your emotions, fears and/or desires.
> 
> I can't think of the post offhand but there was one about intimacy and how you tend to withdraw from others and frequently get misunderstood because of it. It would not be too much of an exaggeration for me to state that I related to that post on almost a visceral level.


Why aren't you ruling out cognition as a defining factor? You are both Fe types.


----------



## Chesire Tower

ephemereality said:


> Why aren't you ruling out cognition as a defining factor? You are both Fe types.


Animal is an ENFP and I am an INFJ.


----------



## Animal

ephemereality said:


> Yes. If one is going to apply tritype methodology to typing, then I think one _must_ consider that person's entire type connections within the enneagram. I think this is why I may appear superficially 5-ish. I know I have 5-like traits and mannerisms but I think this is because it's exacerbated because of my 5 fix and connection to 5. I do not however, relate to 5 motivations or issues.


Yeah I know exactly what you mean. I'm going to write something longer on your type soon (or I might PM if thats ok bc I have a few questions and I know more about your life from outside which I wouldn't type in public) but I agree with you being reactive - 100%. I want to hear more details about 4 vs 6 vs 8 etc. But I think you are either correct, or on the right track. It can take me a while to nail down the number, but I've been thinking for a while that you're reactive. (This is part of why I had typed you at 4 the first thread, though I get why you don't type at 4.) The 5 stuff is fix or wing or line to 5 imo. Also, regardless of numbers or debates about them (being that I'm still sorting through what actually MAKES an 8, an 8. I know irl, but it's different on screen or perc, to identify an 8) ….. I think your posts lately have been much more lucid about yourself and it is CLEAR that you've been doing some real thinking and self searching. So I am inclined to trust your judgement on your typing - - either you are correct already, or if not you will get there quickly. It's obvious you're on the right track with self-understanding. I can recognize this because I went through it during my time on perc too. 



> Re: Animal being a 9-fixer, I don't see it. I've spoken to her in private and I don't think she applies the narcotic logic of type 9 when dealing with anger and pain. 7w6 can also be very zany and positive. This is why behavior only says so much about people, especially when you don't know them intimately.


Yeah I would agree with this. I relate strongly to fear of loss.. and feeling detached from things so that I won't let them matter and then get overly attached and get hurt later when it's gone.. but this can be PTSD, 5 influence, self-sabatoging 4 type stuff, or a lot of other things.

Also my behavior and thinking doesn't line up in a 9ish way. IRL I had to learn to keep in my anger-bursts as a kid. Anger isn't something I "lose control" over or fail to express. It's more like a weapon or something powerful. I'm not afraid of it in the slightest, and I don't have to work hard to recognize when I'm angry. It just IS. It's actually the most lucid emotion, even though I go through many other emotions possibly more often… anger stands out as the one I can taste, the one that drives me to write the best songs, the sweet fury.. etc. IMO, this just isn't 9.

I am also known IRL to get pissed, express it (or acknowledge it inwardly , indulge it musically, etc) and then move on with my day. A 7ish behavior. But I also don't see that as 9 fixing. I'm also a lot more peace-making on perc than Irl because I have time to think , some distance from the people (I'm actually physically ALONE when I'm on perc, behind a screen) and I don't care nearly as much as I care about other situations. But those like you, who have spoken to me on skype - some have encountered my anger and how I process it, much more clearly than anyone would on perc. I have no real reason to express that here, because if I care about someone enough to get angry at them, by that point I probably already know them off perc.


----------



## Animal

Aha said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure? Really? 1? No way! How do you relate to the 147?





ningsta kitty said:


> Well you said you relate to cosmic on so many levels. Maybe you're 1w9? I have to say it but that even makes more sense to me than 1w2. 471 but you both are different instincts of course and MBTI. But I think 47 for sure. I think 1w9 or 9 vs. 8. I kinda through in 8 because I know you tend to feel a closeness there. But don't see 8. What do you think ?


Haha. I'll write a longer post about this soon. I wrote a post that must have been like six pages long about type 8 recently but then the computer ate it. ugggh. 

I relate to the idea of 478 tritype much more strongly than 471. All descriptions of 478 as a tritype fit me perfectly. 
As for how I relate to 1 vs. 8 vs. 9, its a longer post. I can't really write posts like that without percolating for a bit, and lately I've been percolating only on my wings (4w3 vs 4w5) - I realize some people think I'm not a 4 at all, I'm willing to hear all thoughts and keep open mind, but I'm quite sold on 4 and it would take a lot to change my mind, but of course if I'm not a 4, it will show itself to me soon enough. After the posts here recently, I am back to reconsidering 4w3 though. Some things were pointed out.. especially the way @Doll described her uneasiness with this part of herself etc.. makes me think. But I'm not really up to worrying about gut fix yet. I'm sure about 4wX and 7w6 for my tritype.

I'm comfortable with 478 but I'll have to explain why , to the board, at a later date, because I don't have all my past reasoning stored in my head in a way that I cna just type it out lucidly atm. 1 fix on its own, makes some sense. 1 fix with 4 and 7? makes a little less sense over all. *shrug* I'll get to it soon


----------



## Sina

@_ningsta kitty_

did you type me at 471? :laughing:
@_Animal_

I've seen some of your recent posts on the 8 thing, and I just don't see it. I have given it consideration, but the 1 fix makes most sense, especially considering the other lines to 1. I have re-read your typing thread from when you were considering switching from 8 to 4, and despite that bias, the 1 fix is crystal clear. It's even more evident here and in my interactions with you as well as countless things you've said about yourself. Autonomy is a strong competency theme, and that's often overlooked. That's just scratching the surface. I've given my reasoning for the 1 fix earlier on this thread, and I am not in the mood for reiteration. I might go over it with you on skype and rehash it here on a later date.


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> I relate to type 1 in the sense of being extremely self-critical and critical of others, as well as having high expectations, but I don't think I've ever been integrated enough to feel like 1 was anything but what I'd _aspire_ to be: objective and controlled.
> 
> My best friend is a type 1, but a 1w2.


My mother is a 1wX. Used to think 1w9 but now in her older age she's a bit 1w2ish. I won't qualify that statement with a long string of expletives. ;D


I'm quite critical of myself, but not nearly as critical of others. I accept others as they are and forgive those I love very easily, and I need to learn to accept myself and award myself the same forgiveness and acceptance that I do others.

That being said I am picky about who I let in.
And I do have boundaries. Once someone crosses certain lines and I've seen certain sides of them, they're done. I'm not going to rip someone up trait by trait, "I like this but not that" - though of course I'll confront a friend if something they do isn't going to fly with me, and we can have a confrontation or disagreement and still be good friends. But when certain boundaries are crossed - they are done. My trust is not a thing to be toyed with.


----------



## Aha

I feel like fully integrated at the moment. And I feel like changing something.
Now I will write my tritype like this:
8int2 7int5 4int1​​
Stressed/Disintegrated version will look like this:
8str5 7str1 4str2

:tongue:


----------



## Aha

Animal said:


> Yeah, plus some of the places where we definitely depart are in issues which could be related to 1 fix for me.
> 
> Definitely not 1w2


How ironical it is that I asked you about 1w9 sx the day before


----------



## Animal

Aha said:


> How ironical it is that I asked you about 1w9 sx the day before


What did you ask me? I don't remember :laughing:

My thinking ahs been flip-flopping between 1w9 and 8w9 for my tritype for a while. Cosmic laid out some good arguments here though, and I started seeing it again in my own arguments about myself in retrospect. I haven't actually typed out a bunch of stuff about myself in a while so I'm the first to agree that my thoughts on these matters are not organized atm.


----------



## Aha

Animal said:


> What did you ask me? I don't remember :laughing:
> 
> My thinking ahs been flip-flopping between 1w9 and 8w9 for my tritype for a while. Cosmic laid out some good arguments here though, and I started seeing it again in my own arguments about myself in retrospect. I haven't actually typed out a bunch of stuff about myself in a while so I'm the first to agree that my thoughts on these matters are not organized atm.


I see. They are pretty close at first glance, I guess. Both are "heroic", if sx.

I asked you what do you know about 1w9 sx. It is the only type I cannot find anything about.


----------



## Animal

Aha said:


> I see. They are pretty close at first glance, I guess. Both are "heroic", if sx.
> 
> I asked you what do you know about 1w9 sx. It is the only type I cannot find anything about.


I'm still not a 1w9 core, so even if, as of yesterday I was leaning 1w9 for my tritype, I wouldn't be an example of an Sx1w9.

I know two Sx-1s irl, but theyre both 1w2.

:/ 

So I don't have any strong example of that.


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> My mother is a 1wX. Used to think 1w9 but now in her older age she's a bit 1w2ish. I won't qualify that statement with a long string of expletives. ;D


Ugh, my mom is a 9w8 and it's obnoxious sometimes.



> I'm quite critical of myself, but not nearly as critical of others. I accept others as they are and forgive those I love very easily, and I need to learn to accept myself and award myself the same forgiveness and acceptance that I do others.


That's seriously amazing. I idealize EVERYTHING, especially people I'm closest to, and no one can live up to the high expectations I place on them - especially in relationships. It's like my mind is constantly geared to find that fatal flaw; once I do, I withdraw before the worst happens.



> That being said I am picky about who I let in.


I am too, especially in "real life" - I loathe to put it that way, but you know what I mean.



> And I do have boundaries. Once someone crosses certain lines and I've seen certain sides of them, they're done. I'm not going to rip someone up trait by trait, "I like this but not that" - though of course I'll confront a friend if something they do isn't going to fly with me, and we can have a confrontation or disagreement and still be good friends. But when certain boundaries are crossed - they are done. My trust is not a thing to be toyed with.


I don't know if I can ever truly be done with someone. I've tried, but it seems like anyone I've once really cared about could always find a way to worm back in. I do forgive, I don't have trouble doing that, but I can't get rid of unpleasant thoughts... so forgetting isn't ever an option.


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> Ugh, my mom is a 9w8 and it's obnoxious sometimes.


haha. darn those shared fixes. My dad is a 7w8.  Perhaps I'm not as independent/ alien as I thought. 





> That's seriously amazing. I idealize EVERYTHING, especially people I'm closest to, and no one can live up to the high expectations I place on them - especially in relationships. It's like my mind is constantly geared to find that fatal flaw; once I do, I withdraw before the worst happens.


It's funny you say "fatal flaw" - I use that phrase too for relationships.
However for me, this thinking ONLY applies to romantic relationships. In this process I select one person, and they need to live up to certain expectations. Outside of romance, I am more forgiving. If friend 1 fucks up, I can still accept this and continue being friends with friend 2, whether or not things are broken or make more sense again with friend 1, and the two have nothing to do with each other. In romance, if the perosn isn't living up to my expectations I need to be single to meet someone who will. This habit of leaving when I see the fatal flaw, has lead to me being mostly single.

I think it's improtant to note that I am certain at this point that I'm Sx/Sp. I've seen this extreme difference in Social lasts, where some of the neuroses don't apply to them with friends nearly the way they do with romance, and problems can sort of 'sneak up on them' - which is how it works for me with friends. I guess I'm more selfish in that sense; my ideals are only geared toward certain things, but not others. 




> I am too, especially in "real life" - I loathe to put it that way, but you know what I mean.


Oh yeah. I'm way worse about this irl as well.



> I don't know if I can ever truly be done with someone. I've tried, but it seems like anyone I've once really cared about could always find a way to worm back in. I do forgive, I don't have trouble doing that, but I can't get rid of unpleasant thoughts... so forgetting isn't ever an option.


I think a distinction needs to be made here. I let some people in , up to point X. Then it's easier to cut them out.

Those who make it to point Y in the first place are stuck with me forever. I'll never get over them, even if we don't speak for years and years.

I don't think a day has passed that I haven't thought about being rejected back in 2005 by someone I really really really wanted to be with. He's dating one of my close friends now for years and will probably marry her, but just yesterday I was sending someone songs I wrote about him on skype. Even though I'm completely and totally taken with my 8.. and would never take that guy back ever ever ever... thoughts like this stick with me. I think about all the reasons he rejected me, and I imagine I will be rejected for the same reasons. I strive to improve, but then I fall back on "I'll never change" and negative thinking about relationships. I expect to be rejected by anyone who I like, just as I was rejected in the past.

But most people don't make it to point Y even if they date me. In those cases I can move on once it's over. It happens sometimes faster htan others, and sometimes faster than it should, and there is no logical order to it. I can't say "anyone who behaves in X way will make it to this point" - its just not that clean. It's about someone truly touching my heart. In which case they have etched something on my heart forever.



While I'm at it, I want to mention I don't think my friends are "perfect" either. Its just that I accept them with all of them, even if certain things might annoy me or I might advise them to stop self-defeating in certain ways. I keep a relatively objective and fair view of people for the good/bad/whole , until romantic relationships are involved. Then I put someone on a pedestal (even with their flaws) which they are bound to fall from. Even if they are still the same person, my feelings will change about them and then I see the whole thing differently.


----------



## hal0hal0

Doll said:


> I'd like to POINT OUT THE FACT that I typed as a SX 4 before it was coo'.


That made me :laughing:.

I predict that type 2 will be the next badass. But, I really want to start revolutionizing 3 and 1. Currently trending as "cool types" I'd say are Sx 4 (possibly a direct result of @_Animal_ and the whole "Sx 4 is more 8 than an 8?" thing a while back), 6, and perpetually 8 (duh, old news).



Doll said:


> Oh, I seethe... although I might be mistaking seething with lingering and working myself up, which is something I'm also prone to do. Fwiw, I think the 1 fix is much better suited, especially the 1w9 possibility. Even though I also relate to some of what you say, I really can't see us being the same tritype.
> 
> *9 fixes can be lame sometimes though. Like I'll be all super involved in an arguement and then wander away before it's over.*


Yes, I think to some extent, those with 9 influences vs. 1 influences may have sort of the opposite thing going on... the 1 may have difficulty letting go, whereas the 9's indolence may have trouble latching on in the first place (i.e., the indolent "why bother?" vs. the 1's "this is where I stand"). That said, I'm still not sure I understand type 9 as well as I'd like, particularly how the instinct stacking might color things. I've heard that the 9 represents the most pronounced manifestation of each instinct.

I still think @_Dying Acedia_ (ahhh, he retired??? :sad's post http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...e-9-not-conflict-avoidance-but-indolence.html is possibly the best 9 description I've ever seen. 

Since it was brought up, a point in favor of @_Animal_ having a very strong 1 influence is that I've noticed she really, _*really*_ sticks to her guns in a "this is where I stand" sort of way. She latches onto something and to some extent, may have difficulty letting it go until she's had her say (which isn't a criticism, but more of an observation... it's actually quite admirable and partly my admiration for what the 1 brings to the table).


----------



## Animal

hal0hal0 said:


> That made me :laughing:.
> 
> I predict that type 2 will be the next badass. But, I really want to start revolutionizing 3 and 1. Currently trending as "cool types" I'd say are Sx 4 (possibly a direct result of @_Animal_ and the whole "Sx 4 is more 8 than an 8?" thing a while back), 6, and perpetually 8 (duh, old news).


LMFAO!!!!?!?!!! I MADE it cool?!!! Damn that is.. that is.. something.. (lol!)
*hides***
I dont' want to be "cool" tho … :sad: , like some trend. LOL. ha, ha
Should I type at 1 or 3 then?? 



> Yes, I think to some extent, those with 9 influences vs. 1 influences may have sort of the opposite thing going on... the 1 may have difficulty letting go, whereas the 9's indolence may have trouble latching on in the first place (i.e., the indolent "why bother?" vs. the 1's "this is where I stand"). That said, I'm still not sure I understand type 9 as well as I'd like, particularly how the instinct stacking might color things. I've heard that the 9 represents the most pronounced manifestation of each instinct.
> 
> I still think @_Dying Acedia_ (ahhh, he retired??? :sad's post http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...e-9-not-conflict-avoidance-but-indolence.html is possibly the best 9 description I've ever seen.


I know. he really got the type.




> Since it was brought up, a point in favor of @_Animal_ having a very strong 1 influence is that I've noticed she really, _*really*_ sticks to her guns in a "this is where I stand" sort of way. She latches onto something and to some extent, may have difficulty letting it go until she's had her say (which isn't a criticism, but more of an observation... it's actually quite admirable and partly my admiration for what the 1 brings to the table).


Good point and not taken as criticism. I do latch. I'm a latcher, highly focused, cannot let it go til I'm done. Good observation


----------



## d e c a d e n t

hal0hal0 said:


> I predict that type 2 will be the next badass. But, I really want to start revolutionizing 3 and 1.


At least Boss already seems to be quite a fan of type 1. =P I don't think they're too shabby either (at least the idea of them >_>).



> Yes, I think to some extent, those with 9 influences vs. 1 influences may have sort of the opposite thing going on... the 1 may have difficulty letting go, whereas the 9's indolence may have trouble latching on in the first place (i.e., the indolent "why bother?" vs. the 1's "this is where I stand"). That said, I'm still not sure I understand type 9 as well as I'd like, particularly how the instinct stacking might color things. I've heard that the 9 represents the most pronounced manifestation of each instinct.


When it comes to my 9-fix, I find it has a tendency to amplify my doubt more rather than make me feel indifferent about stuff. Well, I'm sure there are some things I'm indifferent to... It would be too stressful to care about _everything_. Once I do care, though, I get pretty easily worked up, but then I feel embarrassed because maybe my reaction was unreasonable, or maybe I was wrong (among other things). Then I try to care less so I won't get so stupidly worked up all the time. :tongue: But then I don't feel right sitting on the fence about everything either. So I try to look at which point of view that seems most right, and then in the end I end up feeling like I barely have a mind of my own. :bored:

Oh wait, I'm not really saying anything useful about type 9 or a 9-influence. Hum. Oh well.

Edit: Leave it to me to start a new page off with a dumb-ass post, of course.


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> haha. darn those shared fixes. My dad is a 7w8.  Perhaps I'm not as independent/ alien as I thought.


That's exactly what it is, I think. I see some of myself in her and it's like asdjklfasijdf.



> It's funny you say "fatal flaw" - I use that phrase too for relationships.
> However for me, this thinking ONLY applies to romantic relationships. In this process I select one person, and they need to live up to certain expectations. Outside of romance, I am more forgiving. If friend 1 fucks up, I can still accept this and continue being friends with friend 2, whether or not things are broken or make more sense again with friend 1, and the two have nothing to do with each other. In romance, if the perosn isn't living up to my expectations I need to be single to meet someone who will. This habit of leaving when I see the fatal flaw, has lead to me being mostly single.
> 
> I think it's improtant to note that I am certain at this point that I'm Sx/Sp. I've seen this extreme difference in Social lasts, where some of the neuroses don't apply to them with friends nearly the way they do with romance, and problems can sort of 'sneak up on them' - which is how it works for me with friends. I guess I'm more selfish in that sense; my ideals are only geared toward certain things, but not others.


See, I've had SX connections with close friends, because I didn't enter into a serious relationship until I was 22. Before then, I experienced this intensity with friends (bordering on unhealthy). I think that's why I related to that movie so easily, _Heavenly Creatures_, because their friendship exemplified one I had at that age. Since actually being in romantic relationships I haven't connected like this to friends; generally, I don't have any close close friends, even though I do have friends. None of them really know me, except my old friends who knew me back before I was engaged. Most of my friends think I'm "innocent" and "friendly" and it's lols.

But I know what you mean about rathering being single than settling for the mediocre. I was a relationship jumper in my younger years because it was never good enough; I was never interested. My dad refused to meet my fiance because he "didn't bother" to meet the people I dated, due to how quickly I often "kicked them to the curb." It was a running joke in my family for a while. I don't think either of my parents ever took me seriously. 



> I think a distinction needs to be made here. I let some people in , up to point X. Then it's easier to cut them out.
> 
> Those who make it to point Y in the first place are stuck with me forever. I'll never get over them, even if we don't speak for years and years.


Hmmm. I know what you're saying, because there are a few people in my past I think often. I hate it; it makes me want to cry and laugh at the same time.



> I don't think a day has passed that I haven't thought about being rejected back in 2005 by someone I really really really wanted to be with. He's dating one of my close friends now for years and will probably marry her, but just yesterday I was sending someone songs I wrote about him on skype. Even though I'm completely and totally taken with my 8.. and would never take that guy back ever ever ever... thoughts like this stick with me. I think about all the reasons he rejected me, and I imagine I will be rejected for the same reasons. I strive to improve, but then I fall back on "I'll never change" and negative thinking about relationships. I expect to be rejected by anyone who I like, just as I was rejected in the past.


I think it's natural for someone to remember being rejected, especially because it can be such a terrible experience. I haven't been rejected romantically (I never stayed in a relationship long enough), but I've felt rejected by a friend that was incredibly close to me in the past. She was the same girl I had that close friendship with - the one that reminded me of the one in the movie. I tried to reconnect with her and she completely shut me out, coldly, as if she never cared to begin with. It was terrible. Just thinking about it brings up everything I felt then, even though it was years ago.



> But most people don't make it to point Y even if they date me. In those cases I can move on once it's over. It happens sometimes faster htan others, and sometimes faster than it should, and there is no logical order to it. I can't say "anyone who behaves in X way will make it to this point" - its just not that clean. It's about someone truly touching my heart. In which case they have etched something on my heart forever.


^ Yes. I have some people who just move in and out of my life and we drift apart naturally.



> While I'm at it, I want to mention I don't think my friends are "perfect" either. Its just that I accept them with all of them, even if certain things might annoy me or I might advise them to stop self-defeating in certain ways. I keep a relatively objective and fair view of people for the good/bad/whole , until romantic relationships are involved. Then I put someone on a pedestal (even with their flaws) which they are bound to fall from. Even if they are still the same person, my feelings will change about them and then I see the whole thing differently.


I think being accepting is different, though. I was critical of my close, *coughunhealthycough* friendships, but I accepted them and even embraced them for what they were. I kind of enjoyed being tortured by them - and I know that SOUNDS masochistic but w/e. It wasn't like that. It was just complex and emotional and intense, and I liked it that way.



hal0hal0 said:


> I predict that type 2 will be the next badass. But, I really want to start revolutionizing 3 and 1. Currently trending as "cool types" I'd say are Sx 4 (possibly a direct result of @_Animal_ and the whole "Sx 4 is more 8 than an 8?" thing a while back), 6, and perpetually 8 (duh, old news).


I'll jump on the 1 bandwagon. They are so underrated. 

I don't like the Sx 4 is more 8 than 8 thing, because I don't think it's true in the slightest, but I definitely agree that it attracted a flock of people wanting to be SX 4 ATES.



> Yes, I think to some extent, those with 9 influences vs. 1 influences may have sort of the opposite thing going on... the 1 may have difficulty letting go, whereas the 9's indolence may have trouble latching on in the first place (i.e., the indolent "why bother?" vs. the 1's "this is where I stand"). That said, I'm still not sure I understand type 9 as well as I'd like, particularly how the instinct stacking might color things. I've heard that the 9 represents the most pronounced manifestation of each instinct.


Definitely... definitely true. I think while @_Animal_ and I may go with equal intensity in the beginning, at some point we both utilize our fixes and approach the subject entirely differently. I either start making light of it, or abandon the subject altogether, while she plants her feet in and acts polite but firm. I know she doesn't take my attitude personally (at least I hope not). When talking on an enneagram forum, things are bound to get complicated - especially between members who like to probe the depths.



> Since it was brought up, a point in favor of @_Animal_ having a very strong 1 influence is that I've noticed she really, _*really*_ sticks to her guns in a "this is where I stand" sort of way. She latches onto something and to some extent, may have difficulty letting it go until she's had her say (which isn't a criticism, but more of an observation... it's actually quite admirable and partly my admiration for what the 1 brings to the table).


^ Definitely agree with this.


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> This is why I reacted so badly to @_Paradigm_'s initial post when she said I accommodate. I realize now.. I was a bit off base so Paradigm, I am sorry for balking so much. Sometimes I need to balk a bit before I dig deeper and get the truth. Like I release my anger about the truth first, and then I go ..okay sigh.. I'm seeing this differently..sigh *twitchtwitch*


Yeah, I guess this is what I was feeling when I said, "I feel like you're intentionally not getting what I'm saying." Don't get me wrong, I totally get it and understand it's a human response, but... Well, I'm not the most patient, so I give up pretty quickly if someone doesn't want to hear what I'm saying. I'm glad you're starting to see what I meant, though -- and not in the "I TOLD YOU SO" way but the "yay self-discovery" way


----------



## Animal

@_Doll_
I don't take it personally - the dwindling. 
I am used to being more intense than most people in that regard. I'm not saying I'm more intense than you overall or as a person, but with regard to sticking firm on subjects. Even my 1w9 mother is sometimes unable to out-argue me hahaha.

Also - about "more 8 than an 8," I was asking because of how it applies to me. Like I said I've rethought many of my views back then on type 8. I was mistaking myself for an 8 overall which I would not do now, obviously, and I'm not even stuck to the idea of 8 fix, though there are things in the actual type 8 that I still relate to. The ferocity I was referring to really has nothing to do with type 8, so "more 8 than an 8" is probably misleading. However it was not my intention to mislead anyone. I was just trying to figure out my type. I was very ferocious at one point in my life. I still spent a ton of time alone, and always kept to myself in groups etc, but I have an intensity that most people get overwhelmed by, and as it comes out more and more, I am always afraid of pushing people away with it. However it's an intensity in arguing and sticking to a subject, and also emotional intensity.. and passion. It's not the kind of intensity that I would currently ascribe to type 8. So yeah it was misleading but not on purpose. And.. really, I can't help but laugh if it really had that affect - I laugh that some fools on the internet fell into a typing trend because I asked a question. ;D


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> Yeah, I guess this is what I was feeling when I said, "I feel like you're intentionally not getting what I'm saying." Don't get me wrong, I totally get it and understand it's a human response, but... Well, I'm not the most patient, so I give up pretty quickly if someone doesn't want to hear what I'm saying. I'm glad you're starting to see what I meant, though -- and not in the "I TOLD YOU SO" way but the "yay self-discovery" way


Yes! I am glad you understand *hug*
Thank you for being patient in that regard.  And understanding it's a human thing. It was in no way.. meant to be insulting or rude to you so I am glad you see it for what it is <3
And it was really helpful!!! thank you :3


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> @_Doll_
> I don't take it personally - the dwindling.
> I am used to being more intense than most people in that regard. I'm not saying I'm more intense than you overall or as a person, but with regard to sticking firm on subjects. Even my 1w9 mother is sometimes unable to out-argue me hahaha.


Yeah, I view intensity differently, so don't worry I didn't think you meant that.  Making my point matters insofar as expressing myself and my viewpoints; I do care about how people respond to me, and if I see fit I'm willing to concede in my ideas - just not my ideals... if that makes sense. 



> Also - about "more 8 than an 8," I was asking because of how it applies to me. Like I said I've rethought many of my views back then on type 8. I was mistaking myself for an 8 overall which I would not do now, obviously, and I'm not even stuck to the idea of 8 fix, though there are things in the actual type 8 that I still relate to. The ferocity I was referring to really has nothing to do with type 8, so "more 8 than an 8" is probably misleading. However it was not my intention to mislead anyone. I was just trying to figure out my type. I was very ferocious at one point in my life. I still spent a ton of time alone, and always kept to myself in groups etc, but I have an intensity that most people get overwhelmed by, and as it comes out more and more, I am always afraid of pushing people away with it. However it's an intensity in arguing and sticking to a subject, and also emotional intensity.. and passion. It's not the kind of intensity that I would currently ascribe to type 8. So yeah it was misleading but not on purpose. And.. really, I can't help but laugh if it really had that affect - I laugh that some fools on the internet fell into a typing trend because I asked a question. ;D


I can relate to the emotional intensity, but I often find that it manifests inside me negatively and also, like you mentioned, pushes people away. It also isn't something I share with a lot of people; although somehow others have managed to pick up on it. When I get going on a subject I love, for example, I'm often told to "calm it down" - or I've had people insist I was flirting with them when I never even _spoke or did anything I mean wtf, go away_. I have the tendency to look at others closely when I first meet them, and maybe people attribute that kind of behavior as flirting, idk. It's not like I'm standing there wiggling my eyebrows or anything.


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> Yeah, I view intensity differently, so don't worry I didn't think you meant that.  Making my point matters insofar as expressing myself and my viewpoints; I do care about how people respond to me, and if I see fit I'm willing to concede in my ideas - just not my ideals... if that makes sense.


Yes. It does make sense. 
My intense expression of ideas is one way that I see 5 in myself.. more as a behavior than a motivation.. but *shrug*
Intensity can come in many, many forms. 




> I can relate to the emotional intensity, but I often find that it manifests inside me negatively and also, like you mentioned, pushes people away. It also isn't something I share with a lot of people; although somehow others have managed to pick up on it. When I get going on a subject I love, for example, I'm often told to "calm it down" - or I've had people insist I was flirting with them when I never even _spoke or did anything I mean wtf, go away_. I have the tendency to look at others closely when I first meet them, and maybe people attribute that kind of behavior as flirting, idk. It's not like I'm standing there wiggling my eyebrows or anything.


OMG WTF !!! I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW!! the flirting thing! what the hell is that???? 

My 1w9 friend used to say, "How do you know who [Animal] has a crush on? … he's the only guy in the room she's NOT flirting with." 

(I feel like I mentioned this in an earlier post?)

I don't MEAN to flirt. It's just everything gets interpreted as flirting.. the way in which I look at people or connect to them emotionally or something. Or is it that I make myself more vulnerable than other people by talking about things in myself that other people might not? I have no fucking clue. But anyway yeah. I am all too familiar with this accusation. And also that extends to "you were flirting with my boyfriend" … oh god. It's broken my heart so many times, friends turning on me for this, that I get stiff and barely speak around my friend's boyfriends nowadays. I'm in total robot-mode, trying not to smile or laugh or look so that my girl friends won't accuse me of "trying to steal their man".. gohhhrrgh.

And then when I actually like a guy I can't even speak..

… face.palm.


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> See, I've had SX connections with close friends, because I didn't enter into a serious relationship until I was 22. Before then, I experienced this intensity with friends (bordering on unhealthy). I think that's why I related to that movie so easily, _Heavenly Creatures_, because their friendship exemplified one I had at that age. Since actually being in romantic relationships I haven't connected like this to friends; generally, I don't have any close close friends, even though I do have friends. None of them really know me, except my old friends who knew me back before I was engaged. Most of my friends think I'm "innocent" and "friendly" and it's lols.


I don't even have the heart to talk about what happened with the female friend I had who was my strongest SX connection. I swear.. losing her was harder than losing most of my ex boyfriends. I still obsess about it. I will try to type more about it one day but right now I feel like..my head is too heavy..just by writing this much.

:crying:

She broke my heart more thoroughly than most of my relationships.
ugh.



> But I know what you mean about rathering being single than settling for the mediocre. I was a relationship jumper in my younger years because it was never good enough; I was never interested. My dad refused to meet my fiance because he "didn't bother" to meet the people I dated, due to how quickly I often "kicked them to the curb." It was a running joke in my family for a while. I don't think either of my parents ever took me seriously.


Haha. Yeah the people who know me are well acquainted with this time bomb as well. Did your dad meet her now that you're married? 



> I think it's natural for someone to remember being rejected, especially because it can be such a terrible experience. I haven't been rejected romantically (I never stayed in a relationship long enough), but I've felt rejected by a friend that was incredibly close to me in the past. She was the same girl I had that close friendship with - the one that reminded me of the one in the movie. I tried to reconnect with her and she completely shut me out, coldly, as if she never cared to begin with. It was terrible. Just thinking about it brings up everything I felt then, even though it was years ago.


I'm really sorry you went through that.  
It sounds similar to what I went through with my friend.
One day I'll have the heart to write about it. I posted about wanting to beat the crap out of her once on 4 confessions.
Sometimes anger is easier to express in words.
Sometimes.



> ^ Yes. I have some people who just move in and out of my life and we drift apart naturally.


Thats a good way to describe most of my friendships. Some endure for years and years, but we still drift in and out of periods of more contact. Some just drift and never come back.

I tend to reach out to contact people from the past who went through very rough times with me. Going through something really really rough together is powerful. And I had a lot of very rough times in my 20s. I'm so fucking glad things have calmed down, though the trade-off is I never leave the house. In a way I like it better this way though. Leave me in my castle with my memories.



> I think being accepting is different, though. I was critical of my close, *coughunhealthycough* friendships, but I accepted them and even embraced them for what they were. I kind of enjoyed being tortured by them - and I know that SOUNDS masochistic but w/e. It wasn't like that. It was just complex and emotional and intense, and I liked it that way.


"he tortures me and it turns me on" was written about a friend I've never been sexual with. 
My best friend.
He tortures me as a favorite pastime.
:/

But i love him <3




> Definitely... definitely true. I think while @_Animal_ and I may go with equal intensity in the beginning, at some point we both utilize our fixes and approach the subject entirely differently. I either start making light of it, or abandon the subject altogether, while she plants her feet in and acts polite but firm. I know she doesn't take my attitude personally (at least I hope not). When talking on an enneagram forum, things are bound to get complicated - especially between members who like to probe the depths.


Even I run out of energy for probing sometimes. Sometimes my emotions just aren't in a place where I can delve into something in words anymore. Or sometimes - like now - I'm in a pretty decent mood so it's hard to bring on the frame of mind to talk about my friend who I would otherwise ramble about. It depends on my mood to some degree, but when something is an idea I feel passionately about, I have more endurance than most peopel I've met. Hence writing novels when I was 12 even though I suck at writing. I just can't let it go.


----------



## Animal

@hal0hal0
I am fighting the urge to type as Sx-1 core and write a bunch of sensual sexy posts about my animalism and why I am the ultimate animal on the 1 forum. ;D

:laughing:


----------



## caramel_choctop

Paradigm said:


> I don't deny bad things happening, I just need time for myself to get my head around it. I don't think I really put any emphasis on a fantasy world. Well, okay, I did as a teenager, but that stopped once I graduated. I used writing as an outlet, as a way to vent my real feelings -- but I haven't written _anything_ for about four or five years now. The closest thing I can think of is that I do enjoy longer series of books/TV because I love getting invested, but I don't... "lose myself."


Sorry, I didn't explain this very well. What I mean by a fantasy world is an ideal state of things. So, a reality which eliminates the (usually sp) Nine's current stressor/s and 'transports' them to a better place, emotionally and mentally speaking. They do, as you said, 'lose themselves' or narc out. It doesn't have to be a literal world, but there's often an element of... almost using the video game, book, song or whatever as something to identify with or as finding a place to belong. There's a dual purpose behind it, at least in my case: 1) Focusing entirely on the 'character' or persona in the song (this is why I like songs with lyrics) and seeing where I identify with it, and using that to help me make sense of my own identity. Nines have an extremely hazy sense of self, so we drown ourselves in other people, real or fictional, to work out our own. And in some cases, we do it to run away from everyone's else's expectations to "be authentic", stand out and "be yourself", whatever the hell that means when it's at home. I hate that phrase, "Be yourself." It's the most pathetic way of saying, "Be noticeably different from everyone else" I've ever heard. It assumes people have this sort of inherent, instant, disgustingly static 'self' in the first place, let alone a solid picture of it.

2) Using that different world/'reality'/state of mind I've put myself into to zone out of real life. Essentially, it's immersing myself in anyone's story but my own. It's not that I literally think I'm a character, or actually self-insert into books, or anything. I just get into that headspace, that 'world', and forget everything else.

It's sort of like 6s looking to things for guidance, only where 6s look to the real world, we tend to go for idealised, mainly pleasant, often fictional ones. I don't know if you've heard of merging - it's kinda difficult to explain - but I think social (and sexual too, IMO) Nines do it the most. They want to keep harmony within the group and also end up (if they're unhealthy) acting and behaving more like the other person/people they're around, preferring the other person's wants and needs, and basically effacing themselves to please others & avoid conflict. The 'fantasy world' is the sp equivalent of that: we want harmony not in groups but in our spaces (physical or mental).

A big part of this 'distract distract' thing for me is becoming fixated on a goal or task that has little relevance or use in everyday life (like writing X number of drabbles, beating a particular level or quest in a game, and so on). That gives me something to do while also fuelling my desire to deny my real-life problems. It gives me a place to retreat, mentally & emotionally speaking, where my peace can be preserved. Now I'm figuring out how to use that singleness of purpose to my advantage in useful & productive ways, but I wish I had a dollar for every time my parents told me, "If you put as much energy into your work as into wasting time, you'd succeed."



> I'm certainly one to prefer the status quo, because I feel "safer" when things don't change (I know this works as it is, why bother with an alternative which might not work), but the downside is I also end up feeling a bit depressed without change. It's a weird contradiction in myself. I need variety yet am also anxious of it.


 I think that's a normal human thing... I mean, it's not necessarily indicative of any specific type's behavioural patterns so much as a normal fear of change. _Especially_ when we're talking about phobic 6 and 9, which are both up there when it comes to disliking major changes.[/QUOTE]

If I hate being controlled (though maybe for different motives than a 6?) and I'm a 9, then I think it's perfectly plausible that you can withdraw and still be a 6. Obviously it was a coping mechanism of yours; it seems to be a behavior you learned later in life rather than stemming from a 9ish 'denial of the world' perspective.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

hal0hal0 said:


> That made me :laughing:.
> 
> I predict that type 2 will be the next badass. But, I really want to start revolutionizing 3 and 1. Currently trending as "cool types" I'd say are Sx 4 (possibly a direct result of @_Animal_ and the whole "Sx 4 is more 8 than an 8?" thing a while back), 6, and perpetually 8 (duh, old news).


Meh, I was always more an sp 4 fan, what with the "Actually doing stuff to get rid of their lack" aspect :tongue:

But really, since apparently everything I thought 4s did 3s do, I want to revolutionize 3. :tongue:




Doll said:


> Omg, there's so much to reply to on this thread and I just. Am overwhelmed rn.
> 
> 
> 
> Only if I'm in a very bad, bad place and can't connect with my emotions. This has only happened a few times in my life, where I've become so disassociated and numb that I didn't feel anything. It was a way to protect myself, I think.


Hm. So...what did you do to get out of the numbness? Could it be said that your 7-fix kicked in for that? 



> Generally though: No. I tend to relive the same emotions whenever I look back, unless you're referring to a point of view or an opinion. Although it isn't necessarily that I still feel the same way about that person, thing, or time. It's almost like emphasizing with what was; a form of emotional nostalgia. For example: I'll look back at when I used to work at genuine 1010, a little jewelry store in New York City, and I have a vivid image of stringing together a beaded lapis necklace. My entire world had just crashed around me and I was at a fork in the road. The emotion I felt was intense and I can relive that just thinking about it. I feel the surge of emotion and my heart swell and my throat get tight. BUT, I don't... relate to that situation anymore. I don't have the same emotional investment. It's in the past... but... it's almost like putting a tape of your life on rewind and being forced to re-experience it. It's still part of me, even though it's been five years.


...hm. Well there are definitely things I have that form of sentimental attachment to, though they're by and large reminders of _good_ things and I can only hazily recall specific moments. 

I was going to say this could've been the difference between Fi and Ti, but now it's looking like the difference between Ni and Si. XD Which is weird because I have better Si than Ni...right? XD




> This is difficult to control and I don't think I'd want to control it, necessarily. It is what it is, you know? I don't look at negative emotions as a bad thing. I don't relate to the ideas of 4s being maschoists, like @_hal0hal0_ mentioned. I don't consider myself a lover of pain and suffering and whatnot. It's not like that. As negative as I am toward myself and as bad as it makes me feel sometimes, I enjoy the fact that I CAN feel something.


...yeah, _that_ at least I'm spot on about. When I was talking about trying to make yourself feel the old way, I was more referring to trying to force yourself not to feel numb by way of doing all the things you once enjoyed, over and over, until they stuck. Which I've done and found to be a viable cure for numbness sometimes.

Well, numb or numb_ed_ to a particular thing. Either one. 



> I know what you're talking about with fear of success; I think you made a good point. I can push myself along for quite a while and do a good job at something, but then it's like something inside of me wants to hold me back. I'm not quite sure how to stop this from happening. It seems to happen on my own.


I actually feel like I identify with this somewhat. XD It's less a worry about actually succeeding _once_ I've pushed off, though, and more a fear of actually pushing off. Which actually _is_ a 5/6/unhealthy 7 thing. Hm.

Plus I have a tendency once I've encountered a setback I don't know how to deal with to retreat from that area of my life for a bit. XD


----------



## hal0hal0

Chained Divinity said:


> ...yeah, _that_ at least I'm spot on about. When I was talking about trying to make yourself feel the old way, I was more referring to trying to force yourself not to feel numb by way of doing all the things you once enjoyed, over and over, until they stuck. Which I've done and found to be a viable cure for numbness sometimes.


Sorry I don't believe I ever answered your question. 

Yeah, I get pangs of nostalgia. I try to relive old memories, experiences, etc., but isn't there a point at which the spark dies? . I want a fantasy to last because it feels good. But it never does. Like food that expires, one must be able to let go of a feeling once its died. Stories either end or the spark that made them great eventually fades. People evolve, they grow, and they change. This is why it can be frustrating when people whine that "artists are betraying their roots" in that clingy sort of way... where people expect/demand the artist to behave this way or that way (i.e., the audience is essentially the puppet master). People fear change, yet change is what permits growth. 

*The thing is*: I get lost. I have no clue what I'm doing at times and I feel dead. I believe that getting lost is part of the process (i.e., you must be lost before you can find yourself"). "Follow your heart" is all well and good, but the heart can be at war with itself, to the point that it is no longer a viable compass. 

Anhedonia strikes just as much as joie de vivre. It's a cycle between the highs and lows, often times, so I try to fully embrace that current. It's less about _*forcing*_ myself to feel a particular way (i.e., happy, sad, etc.) and more about creating a sense of inner calmness... becoming the eye of the storm, so to speak. Marshall McLuhan once said:

*"Nostalgia is the shape of things to come"* and *"We go forward by looking in the rearview mirror."*

McLuhan was a media theorist interested in the way technology altered our conscious, suggesting that all human constructs were an extension of some human faculty. His "claim to fame" is predicting the emergence of the internet long before it arose, but what people need to realize is he wasn't so interested in the technology itself so much as the effect it had upon the psyche. For instance, the internet owes its existence to the deficiencies created by television... after all, what is television lacking? 

Television destroys the audience's ability to speak, muting their voice and thus, relatively speaking, centralized the authority of the voice (talking heads, pundits as "mouthpieces of the state" to borrow from Jung). The internet fills in the gap created by those deficiencies, thus decentralizing the authoritarian voices (i.e., the internet is more post-modernism's radical pluralism whereas television is more modernism's metanarrative or centralized narrative... that's kind of a sweeping generalization, but just another way of putting it). 

Nowadays, everyone has an opinion on every goddamn thing and there are so many voices chattering thanks to how the internet extends our voice. That is the nature of forums, twitter, reddit, youtube, and even the evolution of news in that the users are the content (every damn thing has a comment section these days). And whoops, I went on a tangent. But the point is that things are in a constant state of flux. This is actually a central part of the Japanese aesthetic style known as mono no aware which means "the pathos of all things."

Perhaps a better example would be the artist Andy Goldsworthy, who said: 

_*"When I make a work, I often take it to the very edge of its collapse... and that is a very beautiful balance."*_







































None of his work is "permanent" or at least, the vast majority of it fades with time. But what I see is that his work attempts to embrace the flow. It is a balance, as he said, recognizing that the creation of something necessitates its death. As RD Laing said:

_*"Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate."

*_No idea if that answers your question, but yeah. I like to go on tangents and talk about ideas and stuff roud:. LOL the words are coming out faster than I can control them!



> Meh, I was always more an sp 4 fan, what with the "Actually doing stuff to get rid of their lack" aspect


Dunno if that's necessarily Sp 4. 

If I'm being honest, I actually have accomplished a fair bit, but it feels provisional, it doesn't feel like it's EVER enough... like I am in the waiting room of life and this is just killing time until I am truly alive. In a sense, I feel as if I'm in a chrysalis that has not yet hatched. Sure, I can feel proud of things I've done, but eventually, the rains dry up and I feel hollow again. For me, that is mono no aware's "the pathos of all things." 

Do I want things to last? Sure. It's *frustrating as hell *that things fade and I can't seem to create a permanent source of happiness, but perhaps eternal preservation (i.e., Briar Rose/Sleeping Beauty) is its own sort of death. Stagnancy because you've clung and clung to this one thing can be just as awful as letting go of a good thing. I don't want to be unhappy (who the hell does?) it's just that, for whatever reason, unhappiness strikes. Fact: I am not always in a good mood (although I'm generally an upbeat person I guess?). It's just recognizing that ebb and flow... that things will get better in time that keeps me going... I'd just rather not turn a blind eye or deny the bad thoughts, feelings, moods, etc.... does that make sense? 

This is something that @_Le9acyMuse_ had in his signature a while back (he worded it way better than I am now)... that you must die.

Final note: While I do seem to emphasize that "everything fades" I tend to see it more like a circle... yes, things lose that initial spark, but I find that, when I walk away from it for a time and revisit old territory, I can revive those experiences... it's different, because I've seen or done other things, but it's sorta like returning home after a long journey, for sure.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

hal0hal0 said:


> Sorry I don't believe I ever answered your question.
> 
> Yeah, I get pangs of nostalgia. I try to relive old memories, experiences, etc., but isn't there a point at which the spark dies? . I want a fantasy to last because it feels good. But it never does. Like food that expires, one must be able to let go of a feeling once its died. Stories either end or the spark that made them great eventually fades. People evolve, they grow, and they change. This is why it can be frustrating when people whine that "artists are betraying their roots" in that clingy sort of way... where people expect/demand the artist to behave this way or that way (i.e., the audience is essentially the puppet master). People fear change, yet change is what permits growth.


I actually agree with you partially about screechy fans accusing artists of that, though I don't always agree that artists changing up their apparent style is a reflection of changed preferences so much as it is a reflection of a choice to showcase different interests they already had or developed _in addition to_ the old preferences (I mean who _actually_ likes just one genre of music), but change can be a huge part of it too, I guess. 

I can also understand what you mean about the spark fading, but at the same time...it's not always gone forever. Sometimes you're (general you) just a bit discouraged, and once you work out how to solve the problem everything's fun afterwards, sometimes you're out of practice or haven't done something for a while, and you just need to try the thing out again for a bit, sometimes, there's a larger issue with your mood, but that's temporary and will go away, while a permanent abandonment of something you love will not. 

I mean, for me, I can feel my preferences tugged in certain directions whenever I hear a new logical point I haven't considered. It's a little scary sometimes, actually (having Ti-Fe :tongue XD But there's always points _they_ haven't considered, or at least a reason to ignore those points. 

If I just threw myself fully into every emotional state (well, lack thereof) I experienced, well, I wouldn't be _nearly_ as creative or intelligent or altruistic or _anything_ as I am now, too. If you don't stick to certain things, you can't produce things of worth. Or, well, I'm less concerned with producing and more _being_, but...XD



> *The thing is*: I get lost. I have no clue what I'm doing at times and I feel dead. I believe that getting lost is part of the process (i.e., you must be lost before you can find yourself"). "Follow your heart" is all well and good, but the heart can be at war with itself, to the point that it is no longer a viable compass.
> 
> Anhedonia strikes just as much as joie de vivre. It's a cycle between the highs and lows, often times, so I try to fully embrace that current. It's less about _*forcing*_ myself to feel a particular way (i.e., happy, sad, etc.) and more about creating a sense of inner calmness... becoming the eye of the storm, so to speak.


...hm. So, that would mean just casting aside all reservations and doubts? I'm not 100% sure what becoming the eye of the storm entails. XD



> Marshall McLuhan once said:
> 
> *"Nostalgia is the shape of things to come"* and *"We go forward by looking in the rearview mirror."*


...right, and looking in the rearview mirror I notice that my old desires and activities were incredibly enriching, so I seek more of those out. XD :tongue:




> McLuhan was a media theorist interested in the way technology altered our conscious, suggesting that all human constructs were an extension of some human faculty. His "claim to fame" is predicting the emergence of the internet long before it arose, but what people need to realize is he wasn't so interested in the technology itself so much as the effect it had upon the psyche. For instance, the internet owes its existence to the deficiencies created by television... after all, what is television lacking?


...hm. What'd he base his predictions on? :happy: I'm curious about whether they were weird N-driven predictions or more logical ones. XD



> Television destroys the audience's ability to speak, muting their voice and thus, relatively speaking, centralized the authority of the voice (talking heads, pundits as "mouthpieces of the state" to borrow from Jung). The internet fills in the gap created by those deficiencies, thus decentralizing the authoritarian voices (i.e., the internet is more post-modernism's radical pluralism whereas television is more modernism's metanarrative or centralized narrative... that's kind of a sweeping generalization, but just another way of putting it.)


...hm. I can sort of see it. But all this theory doesn't exactly take internet feminism into account. :tongue: The fact that we can find a _single_ phenomenon, even dialogue, in so many different corners of the internet, makes me wonder a bit how much the internet _really has_ moved past the "here's the current issue of the day, here are a couple sides, pick one!" style of thinking. 

Then again, I don't think socialist or communist views could get much traction on the news media these days, and anyone can start a movement for pretty low costs, too. So I guess it _has_ improved things somewhat, in that more ideas _could_ get a wide audience. But the types of ideas that _do_ get a wide audience are generally radical movements that give basically little to no thought on _implementation_ (how often have people actually discussed how to make communism _happen_?), or new expressions of stuff that's been around for a while (attempts to make the media sanitized, opposition to a few different measures people consider prejudiced, etc.).

So I guess the best thing about the internet is its ability to reshape individual political views--someone growing up within a hick town might not have another way of learning that there might be some good in that thing his family radically opposes. In the way of _personal_ growth, nothing is better. XD And that might lead places politically, given time. 



> Nowadays, everyone has any opinion on every goddamn thing and there are so many voices chattering thanks to how the internet extends our voice. That is the nature of forums, twitter, reddit, youtube, and even the evolution of news in that the users are the content (every damn thing has a comment section these days). *And whoops, I went on a tangent. But the point is that things are in a constant state of flux.* This is actually a central part of the Japanese aesthetic style known as mono no aware which means "the pathos of all things."


Hah. I'd say "I see what you did there", but that feels so cliche. XD 

Though, about people's opinions getting read on the news...they're generally pretty stupid opinions, no matter the side. XD Just the equivalent of fans cheering at a game. XD



> Perhaps a better example would be the artist Andy Goldsworthy, who said:
> 
> _*"When I make a work, I often take it to the very edge of its collapse... and that is a very beautiful balance."*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of his work is "permanent" or at least, the vast majority of it fades with time. But what I see is that his work attempts to embrace the flow. It is a balance, as he said, recognizing that the creation of something necessitates its death. As RD Laing said:
> 
> _*"Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate."
> 
> *_


Hm. I've heard of artists like that, actually. XD They didn't leave too much of an impression, but most artists don't, for me. XD The only ones that really _spoke_ to me were Dada artists--"There's really no good reason to hold 'good', what people do."






> No idea if that answers your question, but yeah. I like to go on tangents and talk about ideas and stuff roud:. LOL the words are coming out faster than I can control them!


XD This is actually pretty fun on its own. Although my brain is not cooperating with me. XD :happy:







> Do I want things to last? Sure. It's *frustrating as hell *that things fade and I can't seem to create a permanent source of happiness, but perhaps eternal preservation (i.e., Briar Rose/Sleeping Beauty) is its own sort of death. Stagnancy because you've clung and clung to this one thing can be just as awful as letting go of a good thing. I don't want to be unhappy (who the hell does?) it's just that, for whatever reason, unhappiness strikes. Fact: I am not always in a good mood (although I'm generally an upbeat person I guess?). It's just recognizing that ebb and flow... that things will get better in time that keeps me going... I'd just rather not turn a blind eye or deny the bad thoughts, feelings, moods, etc.... does that make sense?
> 
> This is something that @_Le9acyMuse_ had in his signature a while back (he worded it way better than I am now)... that you must die.


I do. Although I wouldn't quite say I deny _bad_ thoughts always so much as I deny the _ebb_ of thoughts. I've tried to remain angry about things just as much as I have happy about things. But in any event...

Clinging to things can be bad, sure. It will sometimes result in the possession of inferior views and abilities and ideas, which I will sometimes be _aware of_, on some level, the inferior nature of. At the same time, though, sometimes the problems associated with holding onto something are transient--it seems like a bad thing to hold onto until some new piece of the puzzle or shot of inspiration strikes you. And oftentimes the things I cling to I cling to because I've been a better person with them, so...


----------



## hal0hal0

> Though, about people's opinions getting read on the news...they're generally pretty stupid opinions, no matter the side. XD Just the equivalent of fans cheering at a game. XD


Well, yes, of course. I never said the internet was good or bad. Is life good or is life bad? It depends on circumstance, timing, and sometimes, luck. 

It's more Dickensian like "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times." Most things have a "see the good in the bad and see the bad in the good" aspect to me... freedom or security? There are advantages and disadvantages to both so it isn't a question or either/or, but and, I think. I want it all. Ideally, I'd want to find a balance between the two, but they are difficult to achieve, no? Same thing with introversion and extraversion... the objective element of cognition suppresses the subjective and vice versa (i.e., the basis of Jung's Psychological Types). 

Moreover, everyone not only has their own opinion, but everyone tends to think they're right. I'm doing this now, as are you, to some extent.



Chained Divinity said:


> ...hm. What'd he base his predictions on? :happy: I'm curious about whether they were weird N-driven predictions or more logical ones. XD
> 
> So I guess the best thing about the internet is its ability to reshape individual political views--someone growing up within a hick town might not have another way of learning that there might be some good in that thing his family radically opposes. In the way of _personal_ growth, nothing is better. XD And that might lead places politically, given time.


McLuhan starts with looking at the course of history and seeing how technology has amplified certain tendencies in society. It starts with oral culture and thinking about how the introduction of print, for instance, impacts the discourse. Is audience participation high or low? Are our senses directed or diffused? Which senses are amplified and which are suppressed? etc. etc. What is the nature of the medium and its impact on our unconscious behavior?

TBH, many of his views continue to confuse the hell out of me to this day. Let's put it this way: McLuhan thought Finnegans Wake was the most exemplary instance of understanding and predicting how war would change.


----------



## Animal

@_Cosmic Orgasm_
When you have a chance, could you elaborate on your point about 1s and autonomy?
You said 1s were associated with autonomy but I was curious in what way. Of course they have a line to 7 etc, but we were discussing it in that context in terms of fix.

It's interesting to me how different types view autonomy. Theoretically but also personally, since I am autonomous to a fault, and it's been aggravating and infuriating, but ultimately humbling, to have to give up some autonomy because of an illness out of my control.


----------



## Sina

@Animal

Absolutely  Will do it today.


----------



## Le9acyMuse

hal0hal0 said:


> This is something that @_Le9acyMuse_ had in his signature a while back (he worded it way better than I am now)... that you must die.
> 
> Final note: While I do seem to emphasize that "everything fades" I tend to see it more like a circle... yes, things lose that initial spark, but I find that, when I walk away from it for a time and revisit old territory, I can revive those experiences... it's different, because I've seen or done other things, but it's sorta like returning home after a long journey, for sure.


 Took too long to find it, and then I could only find it by a keyword.

_Newness opens its sights when
an antiquing memory surrenders to rebirth.

All that is used must eventually pass.
Death with integrity is the portal to all answers!

You...must die._


----------



## electricky

Just realized this thread exists. Well, I'm pretty sure of things but give my consent to go on the dissection table we have going here.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Flatliner said:


> "Fe is about caring about the greatest number of people; so perhaps you are confusing Ni-Te logic with Ni-Fe logic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
> 
> This statement especially deserves refutation because it's a serious misconception. I already refuted it but here, let's try again from a different angle.
> 
> Fe and Fi are _*NOT*_ about what number of people you care for. An Fi user may care about the entire world, insofar as the human mind is actually capable of this. An Fe user may care for oneself alone. Fe and Fi are lenses through which you make your evaluations. *The only sense in which Fi is more "personal" than Fe is that it is more subjective, which means it adheres more closely to Feeling evaluations that make sense to the individual alone.*
> 
> So, what if the individual evaluation says that the entire world is important, worth saving, whatever? Voila, an Fi user who may, on that basis, care about the entire world. And what if an Fe user adheres to an objective evaluation of those around him as unworthy? Voila, an Fe user that may, on that basis, not care about most of the people surrounding him.
> 
> 
> 
> Fine? That's technically not what makes something a universal in my eyes - universals are more beyond the bounds of culture or history.
> 
> 
> 
> What you relate to is no concern of mine in this particular instance, unless you really want me to delve into your typing.
> 
> 
> 
> You're using very strong language at points here.
> 
> Is it frustrating to try to explain things to you sometimes? Yes. Does that make you worthy of being despised? No. Do I see you as stupid or lazy? No, just that we appear to have a severe cognitive disconnect.
> 
> Picking apart how we differ/ed, I suppose I can try to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> I read this as you responding to my assertion that the second statement was more Fi than Fe-based?.. I gathered that you didn't agree that the content wasn't Fe-based, but this seems to be because you agree with the content more so than realizing the nature of the thought processes that I see going into each form of content. Fe and Fi can be tricky to tell apart for me at times, I know this, but there is definitely a distinction between the type of thinking that says
> 
> "Property is theft."
> 
> vs.
> 
> "It's okay for the poor to steal from the rich."
> 
> Perhaps you could put the second as a corollary to the first, if you then insert the link that "Theft is permissible (because we all do it)", but the first doesn't really seem to follow as a corollary to the second. That's part of how it's noticeable that the first is more universal than the second.
> 
> So once that's understood, note that the first doesn't even take cultural boundaries into consideration - "Property is theft" is a standpoint that seems to claim that almost everyone on the planet right now is thieves, with the possible exception of those really rare people who own nothing. It is making an implicit judgement in the use of the word 'theft' (that's the tipoff that this is likelier to be a Feeling evaluation, it's the Fe) and yet, at the same time, universalizing it so it doesn't seem to be much more than just being "what everyone does". You can't divide this. You can't refute this unless you want to directly attack the idea. This is Ni/Fe solidarity (and simplicity) at its finest.
> 
> The second statement assumes there is such a thing as "poor" and "rich" and thinks it is "okay" for one group to steal from another.
> 
> As I said before, "poor" and "rich" show signs of thinking in objective quantities, in conjunction with the idea of stealing, which also has an objective basis. This is no longer in the realm of just social categories. This already shows more basis for Te universalizing as opposed to Fe.
> 
> Then you can consider the point of view that this is "okay". What about the opponent to this person who counters "It's not okay. We have laws for a reason."? His point is working off a social system that hands down evaluations to keep people in mutually predictable realms of behavior and hierarchy, hence the social and judicial consequences of the act. So unfortunate for that class of people who is poor, with whom person A was feeling empathy.
> 
> Relating Fe or Fi to sympathy or empathy is murky territory, by the way. Sympathy and empathy are natural human processes for most anyone who isn't a sociopath, while Fe and Fi are specific cognitive lenses that represent your potential toward seeing the world in different ways, helping to decide where you are likeliest to sympathize or empathize.
> 
> Moving on:
> 
> 
> 
> The distinctions you make here seem really subjective to me. Here:
> 
> "I feel that this is the right thing to do" - What if the basis of why he's "feeling it is the right thing to do" is because the situation calls for it, or some other basis that is more of an Fe bent? I don't think you really get Fi as well as you think you do because you seem to be trying to separate Fi from the way you relate to things, but you do not make the clearest distinctions.
> 
> "I cannot allow my family to starve or suffer needlessly" - Again, what's the basis of the evaluation? Is it absolutely undeniable that it be Fe-based?
> 
> "For me, the decision would be based on both empathy and logic." - You don't really seem to jive with Logical standpoints, though. You might think you're basing your decision on "logic", and in reality a lot of people do seem to view Fe as a sort of "logic", but it's not capital-letter Logic. Your standpoints pretty consistently put Logic subordinate to Ethics, if it's present at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you understand gluttony?



* *




First off, I never in any way, shape or form, meant to suggest that I was referencing YOU personally, when I talked about being "despised" but yes that has happened to me in the past due to my words - or more accurately - my INTENTIONS being misunderstood. So yes, I was being "defensive" but it was not directed at you; I realize that my post unfortunately came off that way; so do I apologise for giving you the wrong impression.




I will have to reread your post again; so I thoroughly process it first (the functions part) before I comment on it. It probably was not the smartest idea to do that when I was half asleep; d'oh!

I do think I have a sense of what is considered the social norm or socially acceptable in any given situation. Sure if you want to type me, that's fine; although I'm pretty confident of my MBTI typing; that only thing that I've ever been 100% sure about is that I am some kind of N and I relate way more to Ti than to Te.

You asked me about gluttony; do you think I'm a 7? According to Beatrice Chesnut, So 5s are obsessed with knowledge and meaninglessness. For me, understanding is more like a compulsion; I have to understand, to know, to figure things out. It's kind of like, if I can only find the obscure missing piece of the puzzle than my life will be all figured out or something like it. I also relate to avarice. If I have something I need; I tend to stockpile it and do my utmost to get backups of whatever I think I might need in any given situation. Once I decide that I actually need someone or something; I live in fear of whatever/whomever being taken away from me. I associate deprivation with helplessness but it is only relates to something/someone being taken away from me, rather than a need to acquire more. For example, I am kind of a health nut; I often get two or three bottles of whatever supplements I think I need. People have asked me if it's all for me or if I am going into business. =XD


----------



## Animal

*Revelation*

My confidence has fluctuated tremendously through my life. 
I cannot determine whether it's mood based, illness based, or situation based.
My illness causes brain issues and mood issues. My confidence will be lower on days when I cannot remember whether I took my pills or not, vs. days when I can think straight.

I realized today that there was a long debate about 4 vs. 7 regarding my confidence, and I got frustrated because I could not pinpoint the pattern or the reason for my high confidence vs. low confidence.

Today I woke up realizing that it's completely irrelevant to enneagram. My confidence or believing in myself is not going to be determined, once and for all, as "inherent" or "earned" etc. It will not lead to any conclusion about enneagram. So from now on in enneagram type discussions when people bring up my confidence, being that they haven't lived with my illness and losses, I am simply going to thank them for their time and tell them it's a waste of time to argue about my confidence, as there will not be a clear answer as to whether it's inherent. I cannot even use my childhood to determine this, because I had undiagnosed Lyme as a kid and a lot of illness issues even before "the big blow" at 16, and fluctuations occurred then, too, for no apparent reason.

I did work hard for some of my confidence and some of it was inherent, but it's not something that can be used to distinguish 4 vs. 7 because most of it is directly related to major blows in life AND chemical changes to my brain from illness, which happen and fluctuate constantly.

<3
This discussion was really helpful though, for everyone to bring it up. Because now I have come to this conclusion and I will be looking more productively at other aspects of myself to tease apart type traits. I've ruled out "inherent confidence" as a determining factor. And this is one issue where I am most often accused of "contradicting myself" anyway. So hopefully my decision to let go of this topic will make everyone else less frustrated by me as well. ;P


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> My confidence has fluctuated tremendously through my life.
> I cannot determine whether it's mood based, illness based, or situation based.
> My illness causes brain issues and mood issues. My confidence will be lower on days when I cannot remember whether I took my pills or not, vs. days when I can think straight.
> 
> I realized today that there was a long debate about 4 vs. 7 regarding my confidence, and I got frustrated because I could not pinpoint the pattern or the reason for my high confidence vs. low confidence.
> 
> Today I woke up realizing that it's completely irrelevant to enneagram. My confidence or believing in myself is not going to be determined, once and for all, as "inherent" or "earned" etc. It will not lead to any conclusion about enneagram. So from now on in enneagram type discussions when people bring up my confidence, being that they haven't lived with my illness and losses, I am simply going to thank them for their time and tell them it's a waste of time to argue about my confidence, as there will not be a clear answer as to whether it's inherent. I cannot even use my childhood to determine this, because I had undiagnosed Lyme as a kid and a lot of illness issues even before "the big blow" at 16, and fluctuations occurred then, too, for no apparent reason.
> 
> I did work hard for some of my confidence and some of it was inherent, but it's not something that can be used to distinguish 4 vs. 7 because most of it is directly related to major blows in life AND chemical changes to my brain from illness, which happen and fluctuate constantly.
> 
> <3
> This discussion was really helpful though, for everyone to bring it up. Because now I have come to this conclusion and I will be looking more productively at other aspects of myself to tease apart type traits. I've ruled out "inherent confidence" as a determining factor. ;P


Clearly any one person's situation and confidence issues are unique - any type or particular person can have high or low confidence on a typical day. It does seem to me, however, fours struggle with self-esteem and staying on track in spite of emotional ups and downs. IMO also the three image types naturally fluctuate in their level of self-worth since each to varying degrees predicates their confidence on outside factors, namely other peoples' opinions of them. This is an inherently rickety metric and sometimes people won't give you any opinion whatsoever.


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> My confidence has fluctuated tremendously through my life.
> I cannot determine whether it's mood based, illness based, or situation based.


The first part about your confidence fluctuating tremendously throughout your life is probably related to type; the part about your confidence possibly fluctuating in different situations is not type-related, since almost no one's confidence is stable across all situations. Unless someone was truly a jack of all trades or delusionally confident like the guy from Eastbound and Down then you're confidence would be expected to change in situations in which you feel over your head.


----------



## Entropic

Bricolage said:


> The first part about your confidence fluctuating tremendously throughout your life is probably related to type; the part about your confidence possibly fluctuating in different situations is not type-related, since almost no one's confidence is stable across all situations. Unless someone was truly a jack of all trades or delusionally confident like the guy from Eastbound and Down then you're confidence would be expected to change in situations in which you feel over your head.


Why would confidence ever be related to type more than how we relate to confidence?


----------



## Bricolage

ephemereality said:


> Why would confidence ever be related to type more than how we relate to confidence?


It's nuanced. A five's confidence or self-worth is tied into competence. To answer your question more directly, confidence and type are moderate correlated when you consider the ego is assuaged by doing certain behaviors - e.g., a type three going out and garnering praise - and you'll get a momentary self-esteem boost from certain type-related activities. Eights get that momentary self-esteem boost by pitting their wills against the world and coming out the victor; however the eight defines victory. These are necessarily generalizations since, as I stated before, any person can have low or high confidence.


----------



## Bricolage

ephemereality said:


> Why would confidence ever be related to type more than how we relate to confidence?


Did you see my recent post about the image triad types and self-worth? And, I would also remind you, the way that you relate to confidence is CONSCIOUS and the way that the enneagram works to create your "personality" is UNCONSCIOUS. That is, there's a pick and choose quality to what you opt to focus on whereas our unconscious motivations aren't really a choice. Unconscious motivations coalesced early on and refer back to genetics and early childhood trauma. You can't pick your parents.


----------



## Animal

Bricolage said:


> IMO also the three image types naturally fluctuate in their level of self-worth since each to varying degrees predicates their confidence on outside factors, namely other peoples' opinions of them. This is an inherently rickety metric and sometimes people won't give you any opinion whatsoever.


Good points.
There's also the problem that everyone cares what others think to some degree, even 8s and 7s. There's also a difference between knowing that people's opinions will vary and it's pointless to mold yourself to their desires, and deciding to say "I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm gonna be me" but deep down, feeling sad that someone thinks badly of you - vs. "not caring." I think even someone who isn't an image type would feel sad or hurt if someone they care about, no longer likes them. Or if a lot of people don't like them. (Maybe I'm wrong?) but even an image type might choose to carry on being who they are, defiantly, or they might take it to heart, but through maturity and real life issues, learn how to cope with sad feelings and how to separate which opinions matter vs. which opinions don't.

So even with such a distinction I could not solidly say I'm an image type or I'm not an image type. For instance I know a 7w8 and I know he's pissed when someone criticizes him even if he insists he doesn't care. And a 4 might say "I don't care what anyone thinks" as if to assure themselves or assert their personal sense of identity.. even if there's a lot more going on under the surface.


----------



## Paradigm

I don't think the "amount" of confidence is type-related at all, though I think the way each type tends to _show _confidence (whether real or fake) is a valid line of conversation. There's absolutely no reason why a 6 is inherently less confident than an 8, since the theory is about motivation/fear, not innate health -- and confidence is often, though not always, tied to health levels. Even the typee themselves can think they're more confident than they are, because self-denial is very much human.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> I don't think the "amount" of confidence is type-related at all, though I think the way each type tends to _show _confidence (whether real or fake) is a valid line of conversation. There's absolutely no reason why a 6 is inherently less confident than an 8, since the theory is about motivation/fear, not innate health -- and confidence is often, though not always, tied to health levels. Even the typee themselves can think they're more confident than they are, because self-denial is very much human.


Great point and important distinction. ^_^
Also the thing about 6 vs 8 needed to be said.

I understand how the issues revolving around confidence can point to enneagram type. And I'm happy to hear from others what they feel confident or unconfident about, or how you perceive this relates to theory. =)


___
However I still don't want to continue talking about my own confidence or lack thereof because it's too confusing along with the other issues involved in my own life, and the discussion will run people in circles and annoy them..(and me) .. but I still think this is a very valid point.  I'd rather focus on other issues re: my own typing, because I don't think I will provide an objective clear view on this and there are other things that can be addressed more lucidly.


----------



## Bricolage

Paradigm said:


> I don't think the "amount" of confidence is type-related at all, though I think the way each type tends to _show _confidence (whether real or fake) is a valid line of conversation. There's absolutely no reason why a 6 is inherently less confident than an 8


Although that all sounds eminently reasonable, I don't believe it's correct. Six and eight are wonderful examples why that's so. 

The self-doubting tendencies of six, contrasted with the eight's ability to turn anxiety or fear into a kind of pleasure and confidently charge right into action, illustrate the ways in which the *average *six and eight would have problems sustaining resolve or backing down because of anxiety (six) versus essentially the opposite set of problems vis-a-vis coming on too strong and people defying their will (eight). 

Whenever we talk about type without denoting the level of health, we're talking about average health representatives of the respective types. 

Due to the composition of certain types like four and six, there's reason to believe self-worth and self-confidence issues will be consistent challenges; the whole issue with sixes is trusting themselves more than an outside authority, which is the crux of low self-confidence.

Compare an average health 4,6 and 8. The eight comes out most confident every time.


----------



## Paradigm

Bricolage said:


> [snip]
> Compare an average health 4,6 and 8. The eight comes out most confident every time.


I'm getting the impression I'm defining confidence differently than you (and some others) are. I'm seeing confidence as the culmination of several different traits, such as decisiveness, self-assurance, self-worth, assertiveness, wisdom, and so on. While I agree that type 8 will often outwardly show, or convince themselves they have these traits, I'm not entirely convinced an average 8 will be _truly_ more confident than anyone else at the end of the day. True confidence, to me, comes from life experience and growth, and is more deep-seated than the traits that make it up.


----------



## Paradigm

Bricolage said:


> These things are increasingly hard to show objectively - for one thing, defining "true" confidence is quite tricky. Measuring it is even more precarious, if not a fool's errand entirely.


I agree. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, though I can see how it might seem like I was. But really, that's sort of the whole point: what seems like confidence could be bravado. For some people, "confidence" is not thinking they're lesser for showing emotion; for others, "confidence" is trusting their own decisions. A person could be confident about one thing but not another. A lot of this psychology stuff is subjective, which makes it really hard to properly discuss terms. It all means something different for everyone; we all need to focus on different stuff.


----------



## Entropic

Bricolage said:


> You do this in nearly every thread. A little complaining and then a temper tantrum and then you declare "I'm done" or "I'm out".


There's nothing left to add when you are arguing with a brickwall who doesn't understand why you are disagreeing. Either you get my point or you don't get my point. You are clearly not getting it so please tell me why I should waste time on you reiterating myself over and over so you can understand? It's a waste of my time and it's pissing me off so obviously I'll fucking tantrum all right. 



Bricolage said:


> When the eight doesn't have to prove his strength, like you're trying to do here, that's real confidence. Average eights have bluster and constant fighting: not real strength or self-confidence. Your good feelings are contingent on some small-minded sense of victory. You storm out of threads so you can feel superior and not look like more of an ass.


Yeah, that's some serious extrapolation on your end. Don't psychoanalyze me. I'm more than aware of my own deficiencies. This has nothing to do with confidence, at least on my end. 



Bricolage said:


> I stand by that point. Some types hold it together and put on a better show than others under stress. Like I said earlier, confidence varies based on the individual. In terms of what the types show the world or how they appear to others, though, almost until the bitter end eights put on a confident mask. Threes do this as well. A four, by contrast, actually stresses her problems to garner attention and a rescuer. A four under stress wouldn't necessarily pump up her ego and display a self-confident facade hiding a crumbling sense of worth or fear like a three or eight would. The types do have different ego strategies, and we would do well to remember that.


And you know, I never necessarily disagreed with that but that's just one facet, one layer. What about Naranjo's description of the sexual 4? Do you think they would do what you suggest here? Again, people are more complex than X type should do Y thing because they are X type. 

And can you stop spam me with quotes. Just use the edit button or something.


----------



## Ace Face

ephemereality said:


> And can you stop spam me with quotes. Just use the edit button or something.


Hehehe, I almost had a mind to say something about this myself x)


----------



## Scelerat

Paradigm said:


> I agree. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, though I can see how it might seem like I was. But really, that's sort of the whole point: what seems like confidence could be bravado. For some people, "confidence" is not thinking they're lesser for showing emotion; for others, "confidence" is trusting their own decisions. A person could be confident about one thing but not another. A lot of this psychology stuff is subjective, which makes it really hard to properly discuss terms. It all means something different for everyone; we all need to focus on different stuff.


I have a few things to say here: 

Words and perceptions can easily distract, confuse, in addition to exploit and lie. 
Some people just hide that they're a bitch like Hilary Swank in Boys don't cry 

There is a need to "anchor" your typing in a set of observations for instance if INTJs are known for their economy of communication, while INTPs are known for being extremely verbose and convoluted in theirs, if someone is being overly verbose, and convoluted it's a minus for INTJ and a plus for INTP. 

Similarly if INTJs are known for reducing to the core and someone adds new ideas, new data etc all the time, that's a check for INTP again. 

If people want to bring the "it's subjective" argument in constantly, then they are allowed to, but it kind of sucks the point out of trying to type people and typing in general.


----------



## Aha

Scelerat said:


> There is a need to "anchor" your typing in a set of observations for instance if INTJs are known for their economy of communication, while INTPs are known for being extremely verbose and convoluted in theirs, if someone is being overly verbose, and convoluted it's a minus for INTJ and a plus for INTP.


Yes, I noticed as well that N-doms write shorter. For different reasons, perhaps


----------



## Scelerat

Aha said:


> Yes, I noticed as well that N-doms write shorter. For different reasons, perhaps


In my experience XNTJ write their conclusions. Look at some of my more epic discussions with INTP/INFJs around the forum to see this quite clearly. 

INTP tend to write out an entire argument with a series of clauses, etc. You can get a glimpse of it in Spinoza's ethics (INFJ tert Ti).


----------



## Doll

ephemereality said:


> And you know, I never necessarily disagreed with that but that's just one facet, one layer. What about Naranjo's description of the sexual 4? Do you think they would do what you suggest here? Again, people are more complex than X type should do Y thing because they are X type.


...See, I agree, and yet... 

Instincts don't change the fundamental aspects of type. A sexual four isn't inherently more confident (though they may _appear to be_, but we all know that isn't the same thing) and wouldn't respond in a completely different way than an SP 4. There is an extreme idealization of the instincts on PerC that's seriously driving me insane lately. I'm not saying you're doing it (you've just provided the perfect platform for me to jump on my soapbox), but there are people typing _solely on instinctual descriptions_ and completely forgetting that a 4 is a 4 is a 4, regardless of stacking and fixes. I love making things complex - probably more than the next person - but it's getting to the point where everything is skewed by one small aspect of a type. It's a _subtype_ of the same type, and shouldn't be more powerful and obvious as the core type. 

I know the sexual instinct is RAWR SEXUAL INSTINCT LOOK, but it's silly that it's blown so out of proportion. It's become a type of its own.

Naranjo is one author who has published his personal interpretation of the instincts in various types. What about other descriptions of a sexual four? You said yourself that people are more complex than that, and yet Naranjo is the only person who tries to tack on completely inflated notions of a "Sexual 4", to the point where it sounds like a completely different type. The only thing in line with the sexual instinct is competition/envy... sort of.

What about _independent study _of the instincts and _core types_ and coming to your own understanding how instinctual stackings manifest? I understand most people tend to follow authors they prefer and their ideas will be geared more toward those descriptions, but that shouldn't discount the _underlying motivations_ of the core type. It should add to it, not detract from it. 4s are 4s, and saying, "but a sexual four wouldn't..." "a self-preservation four would be..." is just increasing the possibility for mistypes. The waters are being muddied to the point where more than one type can identify with a base paragraph long description of a sexual four. That doesn't make them a four. Too many layers are being added and with such thickness that anything underneath is completely obscured. Consequently, subtype descriptions are much more general and extreme to the point of narrowing a type _even more_.


----------



## Scelerat

Doll said:


> ...See, I agree, and yet...
> 
> Instincts don't change the fundamental aspects of type. A sexual four isn't inherently more confident (though they may _appear to be_, but we all know that isn't the same thing) and wouldn't respond in a completely different way than an SP 4. There is an extreme idealization of the instincts on PerC that's seriously driving me insane lately. I'm not saying you're doing it (you've just provided the perfect platform for me to jump on my soapbox), but there are people typing _solely on instinctual descriptions_ and completely forgetting that a 4 is a 4 is a 4, regardless of stacking and fixes. I love making things complex - probably more than the next person - but it's getting to the point where everything is skewed by one small aspect of a type. It's a _subtype_ of the same type, and shouldn't be more powerful and obvious as the core type.
> 
> I know the sexual instinct is RAWR SEXUAL INSTINCT LOOK, but it's silly that it's blown so out of proportion. It's become a type of its own.
> 
> Naranjo is one author who has published his personal interpretation of the instincts in various types. What about other descriptions of a sexual four? You said yourself that people are more complex than that, and yet Naranjo is the only person who tries to tack on completely inflated notions of a "Sexual 4", to the point where it sounds like a completely different type. The only thing in line with the sexual instinct is competition/envy... sort of.
> 
> What about _independent study _of the instincts and _core types_ and coming to your own understanding how instinctual stackings manifest? I understand most people tend to follow authors they prefer and their ideas will be geared more toward those descriptions, but that shouldn't discount the _underlying motivations_ of the core type. It should add to it, not detract from it. 4s are 4s, and saying, "but a sexual four wouldn't..." "a self-preservation four would be..." is just increasing the possibility for mistypes. The waters are being muddied to the point where more than one type can identify with a base paragraph long description of a sexual four. That doesn't make them a four. Too many layers are being added and with such thickness that anything underneath is completely obscured. Consequently, subtype descriptions are much more general and extreme to the point of narrowing a type _even more_.


You know, there are degrees of fundamentalism in type. Personally, I tend to think that we should strive to stay as close to the literature as possible and avoid cherry picking, other people prefer to narrow down on one or two authors they agree with, and cherry pick to support their arguments. 

For instance, I avoid relying heavily on socionics because the majority of the literature is in Russian and thus there may be "lost in translation" errors, or other flaws that can have rather large impacts. There may also be central literature that hasn't been translated and thus leads to gaps.


----------



## Doll

Scelerat said:


> You know, there are degrees of fundamentalism in type. Personally, I tend to think that we should strive to stay as close to the literature as possible and avoid cherry picking, other people prefer to narrow down on one or two authors they agree with, and cherry pick to support their arguments.


I agree. Maybe I sound like an elitist snob or something, but I think it's important to remember the original enneagram theories and not allow them to be discounted just because other authors have different takes. EDIT: I'm not just talking about Naranjo.



> For instance, I avoid relying heavily on socionics because the majority of the literature is in Russian and thus there may be "lost in translation" errors, or other flaws that can have rather large impacts. There may also be central literature that hasn't been translated and thus leads to gaps.


^ Good to know. I wasn't aware of that.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Scelerat said:


> In my experience XNTJ write their conclusions. Look at some of my more epic discussions with INTP/INFJs around the forum to see this quite clearly.
> 
> INTP tend to write out an entire argument with a series of clauses, etc. You can get a glimpse of it in Spinoza's ethics (INFJ tert Ti).


Um. Why???

I'm sort of confused by this INTJ/INTP division between being verbose and minimalist in their word-spewage. This of course makes me wonder if I'm verbose or not :u


----------



## Animal

@_hal0hal0_

I remembered something really ironic -
The Sx 4 "more 8 than 8?" thread wasn't about my typing at all. I started that thread when I was still typed at 8, asking about "more 8 than 8" because someone had made a case for my ex as a 4, telling me that SX 4s were "more 8 than 8" etc., and that he was too emotional to be an 8. So I started that thread to ask about HIM. In the end, I was right in the first place, that he is an 8w7. So the irony is that I started a thread about an 8w7 SX being more 8 than 8. 

Everyone on the thread said "no that doesn't sound like a 4."

If that influenced anyone's opinion about typing at 4, I don't even know what to say. :laughing:

Sorry, I had misremembered, thinking I started it to figure out my own typing but it actually had nothing to do with me.


----------



## Bricolage

Necrophilous said:


> Um. Why???
> 
> I'm sort of confused by this INTJ/INTP division between being verbose and minimalist in their word-spewage. This of course makes me wonder if I'm verbose or not :u


Because 1) it's a general tendency you can witness for yourself on the forum and 2) ni is convergent and reduces ideas to their core (Te further stresses efficiency and economy of words) whereas ne is divergent and enlarges the scope of the discussion (e.g., by going on tangents).


----------



## Paradigm

Scelerat said:


> I have a few things to say here:
> Words and perceptions can easily distract, confuse, in addition to exploit and lie.
> Some people just hide that they're a bitch like Hilary Swank in Boys don't cry
> There is a need to "anchor" your typing in a set of observations for instance if INTJs are known for their economy of communication, while INTPs are known for being extremely verbose and convoluted in theirs, if someone is being overly verbose, and convoluted it's a minus for INTJ and a plus for INTP.
> Similarly if INTJs are known for reducing to the core and someone adds new ideas, new data etc all the time, that's a check for INTP again.
> If people want to bring the "it's subjective" argument in constantly, then they are allowed to, but it kind of sucks the point out of trying to type people and typing in general.


I get the gist of what you're saying, but it's like you're comparing apples to oranges here. I said earlier that each type deals with confidence differently, which can lead to certain behaviors; I disagree that "true" confidence is the exact same for everyone.

The one thing that struck me with this post, though, is that I see the majority of the world as subjective. Certainly, the things you can measure are not subjective... But we can't really measure the human brain well enough yet to predict behavior. Until we can, I think subjectivity is something important to keep in mind, though certainly not to be used as an excuse. Sorta like how we possibly see colors differently, but good luck trying to explain what colors look like


----------



## Entropic

Doll said:


> ...See, I agree, and yet...
> 
> Instincts don't change the fundamental aspects of type. A sexual four isn't inherently more confident (though they may _appear to be_, but we all know that isn't the same thing) and wouldn't respond in a completely different way than an SP 4.


Yes, I don't disagree, and this is what I was trying to get across. 



> There is an extreme idealization of the instincts on PerC that's seriously driving me insane lately. I'm not saying you're doing it (you've just provided the perfect platform for me to jump on my soapbox), but there are people typing _solely on instinctual descriptions_ and completely forgetting that a 4 is a 4 is a 4, regardless of stacking and fixes. I love making things complex - probably more than the next person - but it's getting to the point where everything is skewed by one small aspect of a type. It's a _subtype_ of the same type, and shouldn't be more powerful and obvious as the core type.


I agree. I don't like the subtype descriptions. In fact, I'm quite adamant to not like any type description when it starts trying to describe the type not so much in terms of motivations but how types will behave. Sure, there may be some grain of truth in those once in a while but they cannot be applied uniformly across all people of said type and we shouldn't expect them to fit this description to such a high degree of accuracy that we can actually type that way as the basis of typing. Then we idealize types far removed from actual people. That was again the point I was disagreeing with from before. People may come across the way they do for many reasons so again, it's about going back to the type fundamentals which are the motivations. Descriptions are just meant to paint a very general picture of how the type can come across like but it's foolish to assume this must hold true in every scenario because people are too unique to fit a description in this way. It's about fitting it more or less.

We reject this when it comes to the MBTI so why do we still hold onto descriptions in the enneagram? 



> I know the sexual instinct is RAWR SEXUAL INSTINCT LOOK, but it's silly that it's blown so out of proportion. It's become a type of its own.


Agreed. Well, Katherine Fauvre pointed out recently in this thread or somewhere else?, that Naranjo's sexual 4 is a sexual variant of the 468 tritype. That puts things into a very nice perspective, don't you think? Of course, some people reject tritype as a theory but this is exactly why I think tritype is actually a legit thing, almost more so than wings in my opinion. They offer far less meaningful nuance but that's me, personally. 



> Naranjo is one author who has published his personal interpretation of the instincts in various types. What about other descriptions of a sexual four? You said yourself that people are more complex than that, and yet Naranjo is the only person who tries to tack on completely inflated notions of a "Sexual 4", to the point where it sounds like a completely different type. The only thing in line with the sexual instinct is competition/envy... sort of.


I used it as exaggeration to get my point across and it had nothing to do with 4s per se or any other type, for the matter. I could have nitpicked any of them but the 4 came to mind precisely because I think it's kind of reality-removed in actual literature and Bricolage was arguing based on what the literature said about the types, not what people of the types say about what it is like to be that type. I know you didn't specifically aim this rant at me but it's more just a general frustration thing (feeling misunderstood, much?), but since you specifically seemed to direct this paragraph at me, I figured I may explain why I reasoned the way I did. I could equally have nitpicked on Naranjo's 8 in general lol, or just Naranjo in general. I just don't agree much with the man, personally. 



> What about _independent study _of the instincts and _core types_ and coming to your own understanding how instinctual stackings manifest? I understand most people tend to follow authors they prefer and their ideas will be geared more toward those descriptions, but that shouldn't discount the _underlying motivations_ of the core type. It should add to it, not detract from it. 4s are 4s, and saying, "but a sexual four wouldn't..." "a self-preservation four would be..." is just increasing the possibility for mistypes. The waters are being muddied to the point where more than one type can identify with a base paragraph long description of a sexual four. That doesn't make them a four. Too many layers are being added and with such thickness that anything underneath is completely obscured. Consequently, subtype descriptions are much more general and extreme to the point of narrowing a type _even more_.


You know I already endorse this logic and you know I already also endorse the logic of motivation > behavior > everything else. Like yes of course, even in terms of behavior there will be small nuanced things all people of a said type share and have in common because that's how their type manifests, but they will also have a lot of things they don't share being unique people and bla bla, so it's important to not pigeonhole so much or you get at the point where I disagreed with Bricolage on that X type must appear Y way because description A said. Especially when we speak of such a general thing as confidence that's entirely unrelated to enneagram motivations.


----------



## Scelerat

Paradigm said:


> I get the gist of what you're saying, but it's like you're comparing apples to oranges here. I said earlier that each type deals with confidence differently, which can lead to certain behaviors; I disagree that "true" confidence is the exact same for everyone.
> 
> The one thing that struck me with this post, though, is that I see the majority of the world as subjective. Certainly, the things you can measure are not subjective... But we can't really measure the human brain well enough yet to predict behavior. Until we can, I think subjectivity is something important to keep in mind, though certainly not to be used as an excuse. Sorta like how we possibly see colors differently, but good luck trying to explain what colors look like


That's why my argument was centered around dumping the things that are the most subjective, such as "confidence". I would include "niceness" and a few other things as well. 

You don't need to measure the human brain, you take a pattern over a period of time, evaluate it to eliminate outliers, determine a consistent pattern and base your typing on that.


----------



## mimesis

Doll said:


> ...See, I agree, and yet...
> 
> Instincts don't change the fundamental aspects of type. A sexual four isn't inherently more confident (though they may _appear to be_, but we all know that isn't the same thing) and wouldn't respond in a completely different way than an SP 4. There is an extreme idealization of the instincts on PerC that's seriously driving me insane lately. I'm not saying you're doing it (you've just provided the perfect platform for me to jump on my soapbox), but there are people typing _solely on instinctual descriptions_ and completely forgetting that a 4 is a 4 is a 4, regardless of stacking and fixes. I love making things complex - probably more than the next person - but it's getting to the point where everything is skewed by one small aspect of a type. It's a _subtype_ of the same type, and shouldn't be more powerful and obvious as the core type.
> 
> I know the sexual instinct is RAWR SEXUAL INSTINCT LOOK, but it's silly that it's blown so out of proportion. It's become a type of its own.
> 
> Naranjo is one author who has published his personal interpretation of the instincts in various types. What about other descriptions of a sexual four? You said yourself that people are more complex than that, and yet Naranjo is the only person who tries to tack on completely inflated notions of a "Sexual 4", to the point where it sounds like a completely different type. The only thing in line with the sexual instinct is competition/envy... sort of.
> 
> What about _independent study _of the instincts and _core types_ and coming to your own understanding how instinctual stackings manifest? I understand most people tend to follow authors they prefer and their ideas will be geared more toward those descriptions, but that shouldn't discount the _underlying motivations_ of the core type. It should add to it, not detract from it. 4s are 4s, and saying, "but a sexual four wouldn't..." "a self-preservation four would be..." is just increasing the possibility for mistypes. The waters are being muddied to the point where more than one type can identify with a base paragraph long description of a sexual four. That doesn't make them a four. Too many layers are being added and with such thickness that anything underneath is completely obscured. Consequently, subtype descriptions are much more general and extreme to the point of narrowing a type _even more_.


I don't think the subtypes are so much different at the core, but each instinct can make a difference strategically and in behavior. 

For instance, wouldn't you agree that there is a significant conflict of interest between type 5's withdrawal and detachment to avoid being overwhelmed (helpless) or depleted (avarice) on the one hand, and the sexual instinct on the other, which sort of seeks the opposite? Something must give, eventually. 

With regard to confidence, what @Bricolage ascribes to 4 sounds like So strategy/response to stress. An Sp would probably not be so vocal, and more likely excercise self-control and attempt to withdraw from, or neutralize (or endure) the stimulus that affects him. Hence Counterenvy.

I don't think the particular So strategy is helpful to battle stagefright, (no one else can solve your problem) and I would not recommend it for mating selection.

Btw a 4so may very well feel or appear confident, for instance when his ideas are socially accepted, or even better "en vogue" and kicking the establishment some butt.


----------



## Paradigm

Scelerat said:


> That's why my argument was centered around dumping the things that are the most subjective, such as "confidence". I would include "niceness" and a few other things as well.
> You don't need to measure the human brain, you take a pattern over a period of time, evaluate it to eliminate outliers, determine a consistent pattern and base your typing on that.


Not being intentionally difficult, but I'm really confused on how your point is against mine. From my POV we're not talking about the same thing, so I'm not sure how to reply. Rephrasing might help?

The best thing I can think of is, like... Considering how much confidence it takes an 8 to make a decision, versus how much it takes them to cry in front of people. Or if you took a more emotional 2/4/6/etc. and consider the same question when applied to them. It's all relative; it doesn't take _confidence_ for some people to make a decision, but it takes confidence for them to allow themselves to be vulnerable, whereas it could be the exact opposite in others. (And, of course, there's going to be an infinite amount of similar dichotomies.)

Edit: As for typing based on this, that's sort of a given. Considering what people need to develop confidence about, vs how "self-assured" they naturally seem, will help narrow down type.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Bricolage said:


> Because 1) it's a general tendency you can witness for yourself on the forum and 2) ni is convergent and reduces ideas to their core (Te further stresses efficiency and economy of words) whereas ne is divergent and enlarges the scope of the discussion (e.g., by going on tangents).


That makes sense, I was just wondering what sort of explanation that you'd give.

Ti would probably set up a lot of time to explaining what the words mean, particularly if they thought it up real well and good. Whereas a Te type would likely just assume everyone would know what they were talking about. I suppose.

Edit: I mean it's not really that Te-types don't consciously think about being efficient with their words, though and that isn't really something that seems to be real anyways. Would you say that any members of this forum is mistyped because of that? I mean you said that @JSRS01 was an INTP, yet he is arguably the least verbose enneagram wizard there is. Where as @Cosmic Orgasm, a surefire Te-orientated person is quite verbose.


----------



## Paradigm

Necrophilous said:


> Ti would probably set up a lot of time to explaining what the words mean, particularly if they thought it up real well and good. Whereas a Te type would likely just assume everyone would know what they were talking about. (I suppose?)


I dunno. As a Te type, I'm concerned about efficient conversation, and you can't have efficient conversation if people are using the same word for different ideas. And I try to pick accurate words so that I (hopefully) don't have to explain later what I mean, even though that inevitably happens (which I imagine is more a byproduct of being Pi-dom than it is of Je/Te).
* Also I'm fairly sure Fi plays a role, in that it's nice to be understood. Freaking tert-Fi, man.

But yeah, if I don't care about that stuff then I tend to throw words around and say "meh you know what I mean" even if it's not that obvious what, exactly, I mean.


----------



## Sina

@_Necrophilous_

My lack of brevity is more than a JCF issue. It's also partially a language issue. English is my third or so language, and I speak a good 7+ languages. I am much more terse and concise when I write in my native languages (my parents are from different countries). I am also a very thorough and methodical thinker, so I address things point by point instead of giving a very general overview. 

I would, however, say that I don't "ramble" or go off on tangents. It's all pretty organized, for lack of a better word.


----------



## Sixty Nein

That was what I was saying, that JCF doesn't really matter in how verbose you are...or something. I unno what my main point was really.

As you can tell my thinking is on occasions rather sloppy.


----------



## Aha

http://personalitycafe.com/support-suggestions/249977-enneagram.html

Support if you are interested. Add your suggestions


----------



## Scelerat

Necrophilous said:


> That makes sense, I was just wondering what sort of explanation that you'd give.
> 
> Ti would probably set up a lot of time to explaining what the words mean, particularly if they thought it up real well and good. Whereas a Te type would likely just assume everyone would know what they were talking about. I suppose.
> 
> Edit: I mean it's not really that Te-types don't consciously think about being efficient with their words, though and that isn't really something that seems to be real anyways. Would you say that any members of this forum is mistyped because of that? I mean you said that @_JSRS01_ was an INTP, yet he is arguably the least verbose enneagram wizard there is. Where as @_Cosmic Orgasm_, a surefire Te-orientated person is quite verbose.


It's not just about being verbose, you have to view it in context with a lot of other things. Does the person get stuck on definitions, do they refer to external systems without reinterpreting them a lot etc.


----------



## 0+n*1

I get annoyed when I am not effective with my words and I don't cut the crap or I'm saying a lot of unnecessary things but I notice I got to pay careful attention to that. It comes more naturally to me, specially when I love a subject or a subject is too personal for me to just delve in without a lot of preparation and I often end up not stating my opinions with clarity or in a very convoluted fashion that only I can understand and sometimes not even me because it's hard to translate my "software". And. I think I am Ti ego.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Bricolage said:


> Because 1) it's a general tendency you can witness for yourself on the forum and 2) ni is convergent and reduces ideas to their core (Te further stresses efficiency and economy of words) whereas ne is divergent and enlarges the scope of the discussion (e.g., by going on tangents).


So, what happens in the case of NiFe?


----------



## Aha

JSRS01 said:


> You're obvious unfamiliar with logic if you can't recognize the absurd amount of logic I pour into my posts.


It is evident that you made not a single logical conclusion whatsoever. You simply and plainly deflect other people statements with offensive remarks, instead of putting anything logical into it. This bullshit theory of yours is just one more argument in favor of you being a tertiary-Ti. (no offence other INFJs, I am just playing here)

Now, @ephemereality is a Ti-dom and despite the fact that he acts like a sycophant here (to anyone who might agree with his claim of being an 8 or an INTJ) for you, he has a much superior logic to yours. You can see how he can twist logic in his favor in almost every situation. It is a classical representation of a Ti-writing. You can put him into a Jung museum as a perfect example.

As for yours "logic" or "absurd amount" of absence of such - you did not make any logical rebuttal or any logical support to any of your statements. For example, this bullshit theory of yours or any contributions of yours on this forum. It is like coming, shitting a post where you only claim that everyone is wrong, idiot and need a medicine because you think so. Without any logical background.

Of course, there are points of view and everything is a matter of perception. It seems that you are absolutely ignorant of how people perceive you. Either that or you want people to think that you don't care. Either way, in most people's perceptions you are evil and bad - things you do claim to not want to become. You are perfect only in your own perception. If you don't care about what other people think - think about your purpose of spending time on this forum.

Now, lets come back @ephemereality Don't deny that you act sycophantish to anyone who can approve and support you. It is a clear 6ish trait. Also, maybe you did not know, not one member of this forum who has at least a bit of experience believes you to be an INTJ. If you want to continue to pretend to be one - be. But know that you are alone in it.

Another point: I don't really care what type you both are (and anyone for that matter) as long as you don't go around puffing your silly virtual chests and claiming to be representatives of the type. If you, after all, are representatives - you are at the lead of the most pathetic 8s I ever met.

p.s. As for this stupid ruse and bs-of-this-forum aka wanting to be an "ATE" - it is ludicrous. There are at the very least half a billion 8s in the world. By far there is nothing special in this type. If you want to spend your time here fooling around and playing with peoples perception - *...* Decide for yourself. And let the people judge you.

2 p.s. Moving this post here.


----------



## Animal

Aha said:


> p.s. As for this stupid ruse and bs-of-this-forum aka wanting to be an "ATE" - it is ludicrous. There are at the very least half a billion 8s in the world. By far there is nothing special in this type.


So true. Nothing special about any type. If anything is "special," it's the person, not the type. And any person is potentially as special as the next. Some recognize who they are and find their voice sooner than others, but every type of person can learn from another if their hearts and minds are open to learn.
- speshul snowflake :kitteh:


----------



## hal0hal0

Animal said:


> So true. Nothing special about any type. If anything is "special," it's the person, not the type. And any person is potentially as special as the next. Some recognize who they are and find their voice sooner than others, but every type of person can learn from another if their hearts and minds are open to learn.
> - speshul snowflake :kitteh:


Yes, I think it's a question of recognizing the _*limitations *_of a particular theory. Not everything is explainable or need be rammed into the theory as an "explanation" of the type. Not every goddamn action you make is going to be explained by type or be an indication of type. I've moved away from describing enneagram as _motivations _because it implies a conscious, active "this is what I want out of life" vibe when to me, enneagram, and JCF for that matter, are more akin to a kneejerk reaction happening at the unconscious level. This is why I think self-observation is more difficult for me than I like to admit (and sometimes, I wonder if it's ever really possible to "view yourself objectively."

On a similar note: The whole "relating" thing. I often see people go "I can't relate to you so you can't possibly be type X." Or "I don't relate to type X AT ALL." Well, sure, individual differences and life experience, you know? I don't relate to everything Animal, mimesis, Wandering Soul or OA say in part because our life experiences are so drastically different. I mean, yeah, there's definitely common ground, but it's hardly one-size-fits-all.

That's kinda why I prefer RD Laing's work to either Jung or enneagram, in part because he describes similar patterns of self-deception and maladaptive overidentification with something "outside of ourselves" but he doesn't run into as many issues of getting caught up in the semantics of typology. I think that yeah, vocabulary is always going to be a double-edged sword because words can be misleading (language games per Lyotard), but we still need them to communicate. Sometimes on here, I feel the "function-speak" or "type-speak" can get a bit too cumbersome and get in the way of direct experience.

I've said it before, but I have found Laing's _The Politics of Experience_ every bit as insightful, if not more so, than either PT or CN, as "essential armchair psychology reading."

Warning: He uses the word "experience" like 50 times in 3 pages, but I think sometimes, it helps to be a bit ridiculous in terms of making your point (i.e., exaggeration). Wording and semantics will probably always be an issue, but for me, Laing makes good points in a relatively straightforward manner.


RD Laing said:


> I cannot experience your experience. You cannot experience my experience. We are both invisible men. All men are invisible to one another. Experience is man's invisibility to man. Experience used to be called the Soul. Experience as invisibility of man to man is at the same time more evident than anything. Only experience is evident. Experience is the only evidence. Psychology is the logos of experience. Psychology is the structure of the evidence, and hence, psychology is the science of sciences.
> 
> If, however, experience is evidence, *how can one ever study the experience of the other? For the experience of the other is not evident to me, as it is not and never can be an experience of mine.*
> 
> I cannot avoid trying to understand your experience, because although I do not experience your experience, which is invisible to me (and nontastable, nontouchable, nonsmellable, and inaudible), yet I experience you as experiencing.
> 
> I do not experience your experience. But I experience you as experiencing. I experience myself as experienced by you and I experience you as experiencing yourself as experienced by me. And so on.
> 
> --- RD Laing, The Politics of Experience


I cannot experience anyone else's experience, but I try anyways, don't I?

I believe that is done through communication, which is messy, but at the same time, necessary. I sometimes wonder if the root of all human problems in this world are a result of simple miscommunications, resentments, projections, introjections, etc.. I often find myself hesitant to disagree with a person because even if my first impression of what they say induces a "I don't agree with that" compulsion, I often find that we are more or less saying the same thing, coming to similar conclusions in terms of values, etc..

Maybe that's where the term "breaking the ice" comes from.



RD Laing said:


> “What we call ‘normal’ is a product of repression, denial, splitting, projection, introjection and other forms of destructive action on experience.* It is radically estranged from the structure of being*. The more one sees this, the more senseless it is to continue with generalized descriptions of supposedly specifically schizoid, schizophrenic, hysterical ‘mechanisms.’ There are forms of alienation that are relatively strange to statistically ‘normal’ forms of alienation. The ‘normally’ alienated person, by reason of the fact that he acts more or less like everyone else, is taken to be sane. Other forms of alienation that are out of step with the prevailing state of alienation are those that are labeled by the ‘formal’ majority as bad or mad.”
> 
> Laing, Politics of Experience


Case in point, even RD Laing, who I think makes a valiant effort being as straightforward as possible, still has to grapple with possible misinterpretations of his writings (and who knows, maybe I've got it all wrong, too).



Aha said:


> Don't deny that you act sycophantish to anyone who can approve and support you. It is a clear 6ish trait.


That is interesting, because allegedly, the "main" defense mechanism of type 6 is projection, even though sycophant-type behavior seems to me, at least, more associated with _*introjection*_. I would imagine that a 6 may very well introject (don't we all to some extent???), if it believes the values/beliefs/behavior/qualities being introjected provide certainty or help dispel doubts. I'd be curious if you have any more thoughts on defense mechanisms as they relate to enneagram; feel free to dump them here:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...limitations-enneagram-defense-mechanisms.html

I tend to see introjection and projection as _*complementary *_aspects rather than an either/or situation. Most people use both, I would imagine. For instance, introjection is associated more with receptiveness and internalizing aspects outside of yourself (assimilation). The best example I can think of is children introject from their parents. Whereas projection is more about imposing your worldview, assuming others think the same way, or "seeing that which is within you manifested in other people."

HOWEVER, these things do not exist in isolation... the introjected attitude is also projected, no? We introject, say, racial hatred or stigmas on the basis of parenting, groupthink, or mob mentality, but then these manifest or are "spit out" via projection. Thus, introjection begets projection, which begets introjection, and so on. In other words, we "soak up" attitudes via introjection, which we later "spit out" via projection. In a circle.

Projection and Introjection 


* *






> Projection means that we imagine that our own virtues and vices and attitudes are embodied in other people. We see in other people what is in ourself. This psychological stratagem is particularly noticeable with regard to our vices. We try to escape from our faults by denying them; we see them only as aspects of other people – it is always other people that are the source of conflict.
> 
> 
> Introjection is the complementary process. We emulate the virtues (and vices) in the people that we admire. We incorporate into ourself the attitudes of people that are significant to us. Our own idealised image of ourself can also act as a source for introjection: we can use such an image as an object from which we can introject virtues that we need. It is through introjection that a child absorbs the values of transference.







Finally, I don't think projection/introjection are necessarily "good" or "bad." I see projection sometimes used as a derogatory term which i think is a bit inaccurate.


----------



## Psithurism

Animal said:


> So true. Nothing special about any type. If anything is "special," it's the person, not the type. And any person is potentially as special as the next. Some recognize who they are and find their voice sooner than others, but every type of person can learn from another if their hearts and minds are open to learn.
> - speshul snowflake :kitteh:



I shed a single tear.


----------



## Animal

Nakama said:


> I shed a single tear.


That's quite a talent. I have tried but usually I end up shedding more than one, once the dam breaks.


----------



## Psithurism

Animal said:


> That's quite a talent. I have tried but usually I end up shedding more than one, once the dam breaks.


Are you saying I'm talented now? Take it easy there or I might shed a second single tear.

I must confess however. My solitary tear could not have been conceived without your wholehearted exposition. Praise must be shared.


----------



## Scelerat

Part of me wants to rip through people, the other part of me realizes that the people who I want to rip into have more time and patience to put in to argue their delusions, so it would be inefficient and accomplish nothing to rip into said people.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Scelerat said:


> Part of me wants to rip through people, the other part of me realizes that the people who I want to rip into have more time and patience to put in to argue their delusions, so it would be inefficient and accomplish nothing to rip into said people.


I sure am curious who you're talking about, though. >_>


----------



## Hollow Man

Anyone interested in trying to type me? I am struggling between 9 and 6w7. I can send you videos of me speaking too, which could be painful for me to share here. I know for sure my instinctual variants are SO/SX. I can send you a PM of my youtube channel...let me know if you'd like to help me and/or see me talk.


----------



## Scelerat

Kink said:


> I sure am curious who you're talking about, though. >_>


I'll give you a hint: The person who has worked a propaganda campaign on this forum for arguably the better part of a year and a half by now that would make Joseph Goebbels proud.


----------



## Aha

@ephemereality I noticed you changed your stacking in your signature, before deleting it, from sx/sp to sx/so.

1. Do you realize that 8sx/so is one of the most "extroverted" and the most energetic combination possible? I am not saying that it is impossible to be an INTJ 8 sx/so, but it is so freakingly unlikely. 

2. You always point out that you did not come up with the stuff just recently but you contemplated and gave birth to such things during the whole year. So, my question is for you so experienced in everything typing, all of a sudden realized that your second in importance instinct is so instead of sp?


----------



## Entropic

Aha said:


> @ephemereality I noticed you changed your stacking in your signature, before deleting it, from sx/sp to sx/so.
> 
> 1. Do you realize that 8sx/so is one of the most "extroverted" and the most energetic combination possible?


Bullshit. It's about focus, awareness, where one's issues or neurotic tendencies lie. Behavior such as extroversion got nothing to do with it. 



> I am not saying that it is impossible to be an INTJ 8 sx/so, but it is so freakingly unlikely.


Like I could give a fuck what you think is likely or not. I don't. 



> 2. You always point out that you did not come up with the stuff just recently but you contemplated and gave birth to such things during the whole year. So, my question is for you so experienced in everything typing, all of a sudden realized that your second in importance instinct is so instead of sp?


I have considered it too for quite some time and you will find older posts of me where I actually address this. I never felt particularly attuned to neither sp nor so in comparison to sx. I don't think one must follow conventional instinctual stacking per se in the first place. Anyway, it was recommended to me, I thought it made sense at the time so it's whatever. 

Right now I am not even sure instinctual stackings are a thing.


----------



## Bricolage

ephemereality said:


> Right now I am not even sure instinctual stackings are a thing.


You don't think so?


----------



## Bricolage

Slogo said:


> Anyone interested in trying to type me? I am struggling between 9 and 6w7. I can send you videos of me speaking too, which could be painful for me to share here. I know for sure my instinctual variants are SO/SX. I can send you a PM of my youtube channel...let me know if you'd like to help me and/or see me talk.


I'll take a look, if you're willing. Why would it be painful?


----------



## Bricolage

Scelerat said:


> Part of me wants to rip through people, the other part of me realizes *that the people who I want to rip into have more time and patience to put in to argue their delusions*, so it would be inefficient and accomplish nothing to rip into said people.


That part's probably true. Why not just forward your opinion in two sentences and let them eventually mull it over and see reason? That's my strategy with obstinate people on here. People are more resistant when you make it a battle of wills anyway - less likely to listen _to_ _anything_ the other person says.


----------



## Hollow Man

Bricolage said:


> I'll take a look, if you're willing. Why would it be painful?


I am shy at times about it. I am not the most exciting individual, and I care about what people think of me. Thanks for maybe looking. I shall dare to send you a link to my youtube channel. I actually made 2 videos about being a 6 when I was convinced I was one.


----------



## Bricolage

Slogo said:


> I am shy at times about it. I am not the most exciting individual, and I care about what people think of me. Thanks for maybe looking. I shall dare to send you a link to my youtube channel.* I actually made 2 videos about being a 6 when I was convinced I was one.*


Almost everyone on here has mistyped. It's not a huge deal.


----------



## Entropic

Bricolage said:


> You don't think so?


Notice the part of "not sure". I simply and clearly do not know what I currently think of them.


----------



## Scelerat

ephemereality said:


> I have considered it too for quite some time and you will find older posts of me where I actually address this. I never felt particularly attuned to neither sp nor so in comparison to sx. I don't think one must follow conventional instinctual stacking per se in the first place. Anyway, it was recommended to me, I thought it made sense at the time so it's whatever.
> 
> Right now I am not even sure instinctual stackings are a thing.


The thing is, we also find about 8 type me threads, where your answers line up very nicely with what you typed at when you filled them inn. There are especially a few when you typed as INTP and INFP, and as 4w5 and a few other enneagram types, that demonstrate that you have a tendency to answer the questionnaires in line with what you were typing as at the time you filled them in. 

When these observations are made, it becomes quite clear that you have a tendency towards both the Forer effect and confirmation bias. 

Now, I'm not arguing that you're mistyped, but I am pointing out that you are one of the people on this forum who has a lot of knowledge of typology and a history "affirming the consequent" so to speak. So, I guess your type is a bit like the profession of Jared in "The Pretender".


----------



## Entropic

Scelerat said:


> The thing is, we also find about 8 type me threads, where your answers line up very nicely with what you typed at when you filled them inn. There are especially a few when you typed as INTP and INFP, and as 4w5 and a few other enneagram types, that demonstrate that you have a tendency to answer the questionnaires in line with what you were typing as at the time you filled them in.
> 
> When these observations are made, it becomes quite clear that you have a tendency towards both the Forer effect and confirmation bias.
> 
> Now, I'm not arguing that you're mistyped, but I am pointing out that you are one of the people on this forum who has a lot of knowledge of typology and a history "affirming the consequent" so to speak. So, I guess your type is a bit like the profession of Jared in "The Pretender".


And very few of those type me threads were actually created for the sake of looking for a type. I never typed as 4w5 fyi. I was looking into 4, but I never typed as one. I have only typed as 5 in the past when it comes to the enneagram.

Obviously, when you get accustomed to what kind of information people are looking for, it's easy to provide them with that kind of info.

With that said, I have no fucking clue what your post has to do with my stackings. I have typed as two kinds of stackings which is sp/sx and then sx/sp. That's about it.


----------



## Scelerat

ephemereality said:


> And very few of those type me threads were actually created for the sake of looking for a type. I never typed as 4w5 fyi. I was looking into 4, but I never typed as one. I have only typed as 5 in the past when it comes to the enneagram.
> 
> Obviously, when you get accustomed to what kind of information people are looking for, it's easy to provide them with that kind of info.


Maybe you didn't type as 4w5, I kind of lost track, maybe it was being in a "4w5ish mood". Regardless of threads being created to find a type, your history shows very clearly that you tend to "become" the type you have decided is your type at that time. Now that you type at 8 you curse and huff more, back when you typed as an INFP you were so sensitive that you cried when you ate carrots, when you typed as INTP, you just wished that someone would be in your life to help you "get things done" so you could find "direction" in your life and accomplish "goals". 

The problem is that if your last sentence is said with the intent that you "trick" people into typing you as whatever you want to be, it creates certain premises since you also recreate yourself completely to fit the "trick" you're playing on them. If that's the case, then you've openly said that you've spent large stretches on this forum blatantly lying to people. 

How can I put this in a way that satisfies my need for flair. 

You went from Albert Einstein where you only cared for knowledge, 
Changed to Tom Yorke, cut yourself and had massive problems,
Switched to Marx and have a following, some revolution you're starting, 
Even Dawkins and Darwin don't believe in how you're evolving.


----------



## Sina

Scelerat said:


> Maybe you didn't type as 4w5, I kind of lost track, maybe it was being in a "4w5ish mood". Regardless of threads being created to find a type, your history shows very clearly that you tend to "become" the type you have decided is your type at that time. Now that you type at 8 you curse and huff more, back when you typed as an INFP you were so sensitive that you cried when you ate carrots, when you typed as INTP, you just wished that someone would be in your life to help you "get things done" so you could find "direction" in your life and accomplish "goals".
> 
> The problem is that if your last sentence is said with the intent that you "trick" people into typing you as whatever you want to be, it creates certain premises since you also recreate yourself completely to fit the "trick" you're playing on them. If that's the case, then you've openly said that you've spent large stretches on this forum blatantly lying to people.
> 
> How can I put this in a way that satisfies my need for flair.
> 
> You went from Albert Einstein where you only cared for knowledge,
> Changed to Tom Yorke, cut yourself and had massive problems,
> Switched to Marx and have a following, some revolution you're starting,
> Even Dawkins and Darwin don't believe in how you're evolving.


Excellent and accurate observations, all of them. It's just that he's such a lousy ass 'trickster', that it never fuckin works. :3

The 8 typing is still among the most blaring mistypes I've seen here in the longest time. I have also noticed more of the adorable gruffness since the 8 typing, you know like using middle school level 'insults' such as 'dumbfuck' over the most irrelevant shit lolz. Behold, once again, the rage of the ate. :3

Also, @_ephemereality_, it was kewt that the big bad 8 literally reported a harmless gif like it was some grave insult, when the shit quoted you back. Be a fuckin sport, you! So sensitive <3


----------



## Entropic

Scelerat said:


> Maybe you didn't type as 4w5, I kind of lost track, maybe it was being in a "4w5ish mood". Regardless of threads being created to find a type, your history shows very clearly that you tend to "become" the type you have decided is your type at that time. Now that you type at 8 you curse and huff more,


Nah. I've always cursed a lot and huffed a lot. Do I need to remind you that my earliest infractions on PerC are from 2012, the same year I joined PerC? 



> back when you typed as an INFP you were so sensitive that you cried when you ate carrots, when you typed as INTP, you just wished that someone would be in your life to help you "get things done" so you could find "direction" in your life and accomplish "goals".


And I still do?



> The problem is that if your last sentence is said with the intent that you "trick" people into typing you as whatever you want to be, it creates certain premises since you also recreate yourself completely to fit the "trick" you're playing on them. If that's the case, then you've openly said that you've spent large stretches on this forum blatantly lying to people.


Yes, so here it comes. You wanted to accuse me of lying which I never have had.



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Excellent and accurate observations, all of them. It's just that he's such a lousy ass 'trickster', that it never fuckin works.
> 
> The 8 typing is still among the most blaring mistypes I've seen here in the longest time. I have also noticed the adorable gruffness since the 8 typing, you know like using middle school level 'insults' such as 'dumbfuck' over the most irrelevant shit lolz. Behold, once again, the rage of the ate. :3
> 
> Also, @ephemereality, it was kewt that the big bad 8 literally reported a harmless gif like it was some grave insult, when the shit quoted you back. Be a fuckin sport, you! So sensitive <3


So fucking ironic coming from you, all I'm saying. By the way, I never reported that gif


----------



## Sina

ephemereality said:


> So fucking ironic coming from you, all I'm saying.


you are the veritable embodiment of irony, leat. :3 one glance at your myriad typing threads, and for anyone who'd give enough of a fuck to slap that shit back in your face, your lulzy facade would be more of a joke to hack at than it already is. it's almost not worth it, for that reason alone. you are -way- too easy. XD

btw, that' hokey one-liner was tired as hell. let's see you try again.


> Nah. I've always cursed a lot and huffed a lot. Do I need to remind you that my earliest infractions on PerC are from 2012, the same year I joined PerC?


There, there. 

Yes, anyone with eyes can see you have a very long history of comically losing your shit at the drop of a hat. No, racking up 'infractions' on an anonymous forum, for being piss easy to crack and flail about, does not an 8 make.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Scelerat said:


> Maybe you didn't type as 4w5, I kind of lost track, maybe it was being in a "4w5ish mood". Regardless of threads being created to find a type, your history shows very clearly that you tend to "become" the type you have decided is your type at that time. Now that you type at 8 you curse and huff more, back when you typed as an INFP you were so sensitive that you cried when you ate carrots, when you typed as INTP, you just wished that someone would be in your life to help you "get things done" so you could find "direction" in your life and accomplish "goals".
> 
> The problem is that if your last sentence is said with the intent that you "trick" people into typing you as whatever you want to be, it creates certain premises since you also recreate yourself completely to fit the "trick" you're playing on them. If that's the case, then you've openly said that you've spent large stretches on this forum blatantly lying to people.
> 
> How can I put this in a way that satisfies my need for flair.
> 
> You went from Albert Einstein where you only cared for knowledge,
> Changed to Tom Yorke, cut yourself and had massive problems,
> Switched to Marx and have a following, some revolution you're starting,
> Even Dawkins and Darwin don't believe in how you're evolving.





ephemereality said:


> On the other hand, I do not actually like conflict and I have troubles dealing with them by for example asserting myself and my desires IRL. I am very compliant to others' demands and I often wish that I would be better at standing up against others. I often feel that other people do not listen to me, this is in fact one of the things that I fear, and I fear being insignificant and useless.
> 
> *Why I think 9w8 could be my gut fix:*
> 
> - I try to achieve some kind of inner balance and be compliant of others' needs and show them some decency and respect.
> - I am not as conflict-seeking as I may sound as many of the conflicts I cause are caused online rather than IRL. I am rather conflict-avoidant IRL and I have troubles with conflicts.
> - My fantasies can be somewhat fantastical and idyllic.
> - I rarely truly let my anger out but when I do I really explode.
> - The way I am aggressive is much more in a verbal rather than physical sense. I am rather frail.
> - I often feel that strong 8 core and fixed people seek conflict for the sake of conflict and I don't see the point. I for example prefer diplomatic resolutions over violence.
> - I rarely feel like I lose control of my anger and that my fits of anger are fits of anger because I allow them to be and when directed at other people I feel shame.
> - I have often been the target of friends teasing me in the past because I don't say no.
> - I can self-indulge in the physical world and my fantasies in order to deal with stress.
> - When I get annoyed with people I tend to deal with them in a more passive-aggressive manner rather than taking the conflict heads-on.
> - I sometimes have problems taking sides in conflicts because I can see the validity of both sides and I want them to just get along.


Too delicious of an opportunity to pass up.


----------



## Scelerat

ephemereality said:


> Nah. I've always cursed a lot and huffed a lot. Do I need to remind you that my earliest infractions on PerC are from 2012, the same year I joined PerC?


Don't judge by infractions, I got one for jokingly telling someone fuck you, and nothing for things that went way beyond that. You kind of went from Isaac Hanson to Charles Manson in 4 months. 



> And I still do?


How do you reconcile being a Te-aux, and a "Judger", and a 8, when you can't get shit done, can't come up with goals and find a direction for yourself? That's a bit like an ENTP 7 not having any ideas what so ever. 



> Yes, so here it comes. You wanted to accuse me of lying which I never have had.


Actually, I didn't start by accusing you of lying, I started by questioning your ability to stay reasonably objective when typing others, since you've proven through action that you are unable to do that when typing yourself. You were the one that played it off as "Oh, you guys, I was just playing tricks on you.... 8 times in a row...... without telling anyone......... until now..." at which point I pointed out that if that is just "normal behavior" for you, then you can't really be trusted. 

I'm not saying this to be mean, insulting, or as some kind of personal attack, 
Your friends just wanted me to tell you to your face what they say behind your back.


----------



## Sina

@_kaleidoscope_

great find.


what the fuckity fuck lmao:


> - I try to achieve some kind of inner balance and *be compliant of others' needs *and show them some decency and respect.
> -* I am not as conflict-seeking as I may sound as many of the conflicts I cause are caused online rather than IRL. I am rather conflict-avoidant IRL and I have troubles with conflicts.*
> - My fantasies can be somewhat fantastical and idyllic.
> - I rarely truly let my anger out but when I do I really explode.
> - The way I am aggressive is much more in a verbal rather than physical sense. I am rather frail.
> -* I often feel that strong 8 core and fixed people seek conflict for the sake of conflict and I don't see the point. I for example prefer diplomatic resolutions *over violence.
> - I rarely feel like I lose control of my anger and that my fits of anger are fits of anger because I allow them to be and *when directed at other people I feel shame.**
> - I have often been the target of friends teasing me in the past because I don't say no*.
> - I can self-indulge in the physical world and my fantasies in order to deal with stress.
> - When I get annoyed with people I tend to deal with them in a *more passive-aggressive manner rather than taking the conflict heads-on.*
> - I sometimes have problems taking sides in conflicts because I can see the validity of both sides and I want them to just get along.


_
THIS is the very antithesis of core 8. Period:_
compliance to others' needs? 
conflict avoidance repeated over and over again?
feeling shame over anger?
passive aggression over direct engagement of conflict?
trouble taking sides and wanting people to get along?

besides, a lot of this shit is in line with easily observable actions on the forum over time. 

and, this right here is *irony*, and it's so fuckin delicious I can taste it. :3 


Also, as i brought up earlier, the open self- identification with "victimhood" and "crying over it"-- i quote. can't be assed to link it, but it was on a typing thread and similar comments were made in other places.


----------



## Scelerat

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Excellent and accurate observations, all of them. It's just that he's such a lousy ass 'trickster', that it never fuckin works. :3
> 
> The 8 typing is still among the most blaring mistypes I've seen here in the longest time. I have also noticed more of the adorable gruffness since the 8 typing, you know like using middle school level 'insults' such as 'dumbfuck' over the most irrelevant shit lolz. Behold, once again, the rage of the ate. :3


I know of one person on this forum who I accurately type as a core 8, he's a relatively pleasant and polite person but he's also a person that just has a "I will end your life" vibe.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Scelerat said:


> I know of one person on this forum who I accurately type as a core 8, he's a relatively pleasant and polite person but he's also *a person that just has a "I will end your life" vibe*.


I usually agree with your posts, but this right there is why people think it's badass to be an 8. You don't need to have an 'I will end your life' vibe to be an 8. That just sounds like something coming out of an action movie, and yes, a lot of people want to identify with that.


----------



## Scelerat

kaleidoscope said:


> I usually agree with your posts, but this right there is why people think it's badass to be an 8. You don't need to have an 'I will end your life' vibe to be an 8. That just sounds like something coming out of am action movie, and yes, a lot of people want to identify with that.


That wasn't a literal thing, it was metaphor. A more long winded way of putting it would be: "You get a sense from this person that he is perfectly comfortable with who he is, what he does, what he wants, and is perfectly aware that the only thing to fear is fear itself" 

The funny thing about that though, is that if people identify with it, they are probably not an 8.


----------



## Sina

Scelerat said:


> That wasn't a literal thing, it was metaphor. A more long winded way of putting it would be: "You get a sense from this person that he is perfectly comfortable with who he is, what he does, what he wants, and is perfectly aware that the only thing to fear is fear itself"
> 
> The funny thing about that though, is that if people identify with it, they are probably not an 8.


The only thing to fear is fear itself is a very CP 6 theme. I do find that what you said there could apply to other types, especially 6, and it isn't specifically 8.

What I will say is that 8s are regular people as you wrote, who can obviously be pleasant and relaxed, like well fuck, the rest of the population, as opposed to the rage fueled badass, that burns villages down on their way to work, they are made out to be and pansies like to identify with. 

The "vibe" I'd describe is more of groundedness, a naturally and unconsciously expansive and forceful personality, and finally an air of decisiveness arising from being attuned to and confident in their own instincts.


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> The only thing to fear is fear itself is a very CP 6 theme. I do find that what you said there could apply to any type, and it isn't specifically 8.
> 
> What I do see is that 8s are regular people, who can obviously be pleasant and relaxed, like the rest of the population, as opposed to the rage fueled badass they are made out to be and pansies like to identify with.* The "vibe" I'd describe is more of groundedness, also decisiveness *arising from being attuned to and confident in their own instincts.


^_^ 

This is something people underestimate about the gut triad in general, in my experience. Not just 8, but also 1, and even 9. The gut triad is action oriented, grounded. I get that 9s are "out of touch with anger/ gut" etc, but they are still very instinctual and grounded people in my experience, at least where their sense of action is concerned.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> The only thing to fear is fear itself is a very CP 6 theme. I do find that what you said there could apply to other types, especially 6, and it isn't specifically 8.


Yeah, I was just gonna say that I've seen 6s on the forum express that very thought. I don't think that's 8like either.



> What I will say is that 8s are regular people as you wrote, who can obviously be pleasant and relaxed, like well fuck, the rest of the population, as opposed to the rage fueled badass, that burns villages down on their way to work, they are made out to be and pansies like to identify with.
> 
> The "vibe" I'd describe is more of groundedness, a naturally and unconsciously expansive and forceful personality, and finally an air of decisiveness arising from being attuned to and confident in their own instincts.


_Unconsciously expansive and forceful personality_ was perfectly worded. I don't think 8s are even aware of how forceful they can be at times, they think they're just being direct and straight to the point. That's why when you see some idiot boasting about how powerful they are, you know it's very likely not a core 8 talking.


----------



## Sina

kaleidoscope said:


> _Unconsciously expansive and forceful personality_ was perfectly worded. I don't think 8s are even aware of how forceful they can be at times, they think they're just being direct and straight to the point. That's why when you see some idiot boasting about how powerful they are, you know it's very likely not a core 8 talking.


Mmhmm

Also, their impact on others is their blind spot. Oh and yes, 8s unconsciously deny fear and also consciously deny it when it rises to surface. But, the fear of fear itself, at the root, isn't 8.


----------



## Figure

Animal said:


> ^_^
> 
> This is something people underestimate about the gut triad in general, in my experience. Not just 8, but also 1, and even 9. The gut triad is action oriented, grounded. I get that 9s are "out of touch with anger/ gut" etc, but they are still very instinctual and grounded people in my experience, at least where their sense of action is concerned.


9 in particular needs to be seen more this way. 

People have this assumption that 9's are pragmatically unfit for basic human existence, but many 9's are in actuality practical, grounded people - very often as a result of their sloth, and doing whatever is necessary to keep them on their cloud. Not all 9's are lazy in their work, relationships, or home life - a lot of them are stable and steady in these areas sensually, while doing absolutely nothing to develop spiritually, or impose their own wants or needs. They are lazy to _themselves and their own advancement_, and echo the overall theme of the Gut triad of insulation of one's true being through focusing outside the self.

It is also true that 9's anger is not always hidden from sight, and that they are not always sweet, kind nicey nicey doormats. 9w1 in particular can get really pissy (albeit still passive-aggressive) if they feel like people aren't listening to them or taking them seriously, and the type as a whole is more about complete dead apathy (imposed on themselves AND their outer environment through will) than it is being nice. 

I want to stress something additional - that the Gut types aren't called "actionable" because they "do more" than the other types. Types 2, 3, 6, and 7 in particular _do_ a lot and can get a lot of things done within their arena. It's more that for Guts the first thought is to do, not that they necessarily do more or do things more effectively. This again because the focus is centered outside the self.


----------



## hal0hal0

Figure said:


> 9 in particular needs to be seen more this way.
> 
> People have this assumption that 9's are pragmatically unfit for basic human existence, but many 9's are in actuality practical, grounded people - very often as a result of their sloth, and doing whatever is necessary to keep them on their cloud. *Not all 9's are lazy in their work, relationships, or home life - a lot of them are stable and steady in these areas sensually, while doing absolutely nothing to develop spiritually, or impose their own wants or needs.* They are lazy to _themselves and their own advancement_, and echo the overall theme of the Gut triad of insulation of one's true being through focusing outside the self.


Yes, very well put. If a 9 finds that a stable job, relationship, lifestyle, routine, etc. ensure its ability to stay in its "comfortable" bubble and avoid unpleasantness, then I see no reason why they can't be successful or work hard. I wouldn't be surprised if 9s end up being some of the most reliable people out there. I suppose they might be less passionate or perhaps find themselves having a "whatever" sort of attitude like they really don't care but they put up with it anyways. But yes, I agree, not all 9s are couch potatoes (hell, I'd say 4 is more of a couch potato and even that isn't really true).

Type 9 has taken me a very long time to start understanding. I prefer describing its fixation as indifference as opposed to "laziness" per se. I've brought it up before but @Dying Acedia 's (come back here, dammit!!! at any rate, I hope his retirement is finding him ample opportunity to slay his demons or whatever he must) post http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...e-9-not-conflict-avoidance-but-indolence.html really illuminated me to what it's about. 

Probably one of the best resources on type 9, which reminds me @Cosmic Orgasm do you think that thread ought to be added to the enneagram reading list? Or at least stickied? (I almost think that we just need to start updating some of the sticky threads in each subforum, maybe throw out the less useful/misleading ones).


----------



## Schweeeeks

Question: Can anyone describe Sp in a concrete and non-boring way?

Everywhere I look, it's like "I want to be comfortable, preferably physically comfortable. I like paying bills, because I don't want the police to bust down my door and take me away from these awesome pillows I'm sleeping on."

I mainly identify Sp by a lack of Sx and So....which is retarded. Process of elimination is cool and all, but you still need a positive "YES"s to really be sure of things.

Relevance to mistyping thread: Probably one of my biggest "mistyping" problems in Enneagram with myself and helping others.


----------



## Sina

@hal0hal0

yes, i need to add it to my sticky. will do it soon. that thread should def be stickied if it hasn't already been.


----------



## Coburn

I have officially decided. I am a nine. Nobody try to stop me, or Ms. CafeBot gets it right in the creamer.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Marlowe said:


> I have officially decided. I am a nine. Nobody try to stop me, or Ms. CafeBot gets it right in the creamer.



Instant No Button! Star Wars funnies FTW!


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Seriously I hate to see that this thread devolved into a witch hunt. Acting like a gang against one person (in this case doing this shit to @ephemereality ) is fucking low, even more as I've seen this shit at least twice in this same thread. You're just a bunch of hyenas that belong to 4chan or some random anime forum. Even the trolls of those places have more dignity than you. You should do something more productive than witch hunting people and showing your crap understanding of Enneagram. 

Apart of this, I should mention that I think that @Aha is a 7, which I've clearly noticed with his gif spam and running away of anything that's negative, which I consider that speaks against being a reactive type.


----------



## Aha

*Gently Honest Mistype Revelation*

I typed my cat as E9 and even E2 once, but it turned out he is an E8. I just had to look into his motivations.
Other cats agree with this typing.


----------



## Aha

Blue Flare said:


> Apart of this, I should mention that I think that @_Aha_ is a 7, which I've clearly noticed with his gif spam


YES! Speak about me! :kitteh: 

So, you don't like my gifs?
How about that?














Blue Flare said:


> and running away of anything that's negative, which I consider that speaks against being a reactive type.


That is a lie. I fight negative things











Blue Flare said:


> Seriously I hate to see that this thread devolved into a witch hunt. Acting like a gang against one person (in this case doing this shit to @_ephemereality_ ) is fucking low, even more as I've seen this shit at least twice in this same thread. You're just a bunch of hyenas that belong to 4chan or some random anime forum. Even the trolls of those places have more dignity than you. You should do something more productive than witch hunting people and showing your crap understanding of Enneagram.


What I really question is you being an INTJ. I just a have a hunch that it is ephemer who typed you and now you protect him.


----------



## HellCat

I think the cheshire cat is more appropriate than the joker, personality wise. 

I don't type people but. yea. mischievous not malicious.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Aha said:


> YES! Speak about me! :kitteh:
> 
> So, you don't like my gifs?
> How about that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a lie. I fight negative things


Eh, I meant that posting gifs and trying to not deal with the negative things points clearly to 7, and to be honest I've seen that you mentioned that you don't like gloomy things. Anyway, how do you fight those negative things? try to cut them or just leave them for later?



> What I really question is you being an INTJ. I just a have a hunch that it is ephemer who typed you and now you protect him.


Nope, I arrived alone at that type, indeed he thought at first that I was ENTJ or some XSFP when I talked with him.


----------



## Sina

Blue Flare said:


> Seriously I hate to see that this thread devolved into a witch hunt. Acting like a gang against one person (in this case doing this shit to @_ephemereality_ ) is fucking low, even more as I've seen this shit at least twice in this same thread. You're just a bunch of hyenas that belong to 4chan or some random anime forum. Even the trolls of those places have more dignity than you. You should do something more productive than witch hunting people and showing your crap understanding of Enneagram.
> 
> Apart of this, I should mention that I think that @_Aha_ is a 7, which I've clearly noticed with his gif spam and running away of anything that's negative, which I consider that speaks against being a reactive type.


oh you! cry me a river. :3

here comes the whiteknight. this is pretty typical of the person you're 'defending', btw. he likes to conveniently tuck his tail and run off, and soon after, in walks a bleeding heart 'defender' of the _downtrodden_. 

let's recap for shits and giggles. he stepped on the "mistype" thread and asked for feedback. can't stand the heat? staying out of the kitchen is how you deal. lolz @ 'witch hunt'. melodramatic much? he said he'd not engage people in a typing discussion, and yet keeps coming back. let's see..what else. 

i've seen him openly question people's types here, unsolicited, multiple times in all the years i've been here. i've seen him make a mockery of people's mental health and get 'infracted' for it. i've seen him call people names (lol), and lose his shit at the drop of a hanky. i've seen all kinds of shit from him.

rest assured, he can stand up for himself, without you acting like his lil nanny as cute as it is. besides, that's the least you'd expect from an '8'. so yanno, feel free to stir the shitpot though. it's fun to watch. :3 on that note, since you're on about 'productivity', how about you correct the shitty enneagram knowledge of aforementioned witch hunters by making a case for core 8 for your lil persecuted buddy here. 

do regale me. 

p.s. I could see @_Aha_ as a 7.


----------



## Aha

LeoCat said:


> I think the cheshire cat is more appropriate than the joker, personality wise.
> 
> I don't type people but. yea. mischievous not malicious.


They are both ENTP-7s roud:


----------



## Sixty Nein

Schweeeeks said:


> Question: Can anyone describe Sp in a concrete and non-boring way?


The self preservation instinct is basically a view point of trying to keep some parts of yourself, well you. It is basically a fixation on defenses against threats to your security and autonomy. An over-focus on it typically leaves the person hollowed out as far as empathy and genuine compassion though, and this lack of either trait makes the SP fixer even more defensive than usual.


----------



## HellCat

Aha said:


> They are both ENTP-7s roud:


'
So you admit you are a seven and play an eight to troll people? Clever. 

Numbers don't matter, its what you do with it that counts. Fears/motivations introspection, using it to your advantage with strength and weakness and what not.


----------



## Aha

Blue Flare said:


> Eh, I meant that posting gifs and trying to not deal with the negative things points clearly to 7, and to be honest I've seen that you mentioned that you don't like gloomy things. Anyway, how do you fight those negative things? try to cut them or just leave them for later?


It depends on what those negative things are.

If there are negative people around me - I deal with them negatively.
If I have negative emotions - I actually like them and emphasize them. But only in private (I will not show it to a bystander). I don't put the 4 fix into my profile for fun. 


It is a bad example of yours. I have a lot of 7ish features but not the running away one.




Cosmic Orgasm said:


> p.s. I could see @_Aha_ as a 7.


Thanks! roud:


----------



## Aha

LeoCat said:


> '
> So you admit you are a seven and play an eight to troll people? Clever.
> 
> Numbers don't matter, its what you do with it that counts. Fears/motivations introspection, using it to your advantage with strength and weakness and what not.


Ha! No, I am an eight. I am an ENTP eight. It means a Ne-Ti-Fe and lots of humour. 

its 8w7 7w8 4w5 sx/so for me


----------



## Bricolage

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> here comes the whiteknight.


So much :laughing: from you today.


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> Ha! No, I am an eight. I am an ENTP eight. It means a Ne-Ti-Fe and lots of humour.
> 
> its 8w7 7w8 4w5 sx/so for me


And all the way from Troll Station, Antarctica. It must get cold there.


----------



## Aha

Bricolage said:


> And all the way from Troll Station, Antarctica. It must get cold there.


All the way from Antarctica! Here is me near my cave :laughing:


----------



## Aha

What? Thats it? I want questions about my personality! :crazy:


----------



## HellCat

Aha said:


> What? Thats it? I want questions about my personality! :crazy:


What makes you so certain Eight?

Please list every reason. You seem knowledgeable so..


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> What? Thats it? I want questions about my personality! :crazy:


I think you are 8w7 sx/so then 7w8 so no argument from me lol.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@_Aha_
Not gonna lie, you strike me as more of a 7 too. At least you don't seem to glorify type 8, so I don't assume you're typing that way for romantic reasons as some people might do, but I do wonder how in-depth you've looked into type 7 before deciding against it.


----------



## Sixty Nein

I hope you don't disappoint me Aha. This might be a very magical thread. Whether or not it's at the expense or the expanding of another person's integrity is another matter.

I am sincere about this too.


----------



## Aha

LeoCat said:


> What makes you so certain Eight?
> 
> Please list every reason. You seem knowledgeable so..


List of reasons:
1. I fit perfectly everything what is written in the "traditional Enneagram"
2. I fit perfectly every instinctual description of the type. Also I fit so/sx and so as well. (Chestnut and other)
3. Should I mention fears and motivations? Look 1&2
4. I do seem to fit both 8w7 and 8w9 description. Depending on a situation. I consider that I have both wings. A heavy 7 wing and a moderate 9 wing. Although, judging by the material in the 1, I am more 8w9.
5. I fit Naranjo 8 description somewhat on 80%. It does describe physical aspect of it and it fits me perfectly but I cannot associate myself with lies, extreme sociopathism and other over-border things.

Due to my Ne-Ti nature or just because I read a lot and love science (and I am aerospace engineer), I am not anti-intellectual like some descriptions say (especially Naranjo). I can be in-my-head for quite a long time. I have positive sides of 7ish description but no gluttony or fears of the type. I have some positive sides of 4ish description but no envy.



Ask more roud:


----------



## Bricolage

8 - reactive, ambivalent triad, body energy, concerned with survival and amassing resources, self protective, assertive 

7 - positive outlook triad, frustration triad (with 1 and 4), mental (erratic) mental energy, concerned with possibilities, assertive


----------



## Sina

Kink said:


> @_Aha_
> Not gonna lie, you strike me as more of a 7 too. At least you don't seem to glorify type 8, so I don't assume you're typing that way for romantic reasons as some people might do, but I do wonder how in-depth you've looked into type 7 before deciding against it.


I agree with this observation. I may think he is mistyped, but he is, to be sure, not an "ate".


----------



## HellCat

Aha said:


> List of reasons:
> 1. I fit perfectly everything what is written in the "traditional Enneagram"
> 2. I fit perfectly every instinctual description of the type. Also I fit so/sx and so as well. (Chestnut and other)
> 3. Should I mention fears and motivations? Look 1&2
> 4. I do seem to fit both 8w7 and 8w9 description. Depending on a situation. I consider that I have both wings. A heavy 7 wing and a moderate 9 wing. Although, judging by the material in the 1, I am more 8w9.
> 5. I fit Naranjo 8 description somewhat on 80%. It does describe physical aspect of it and it fits me perfectly but I cannot associate myself with lies, extreme sociopathism and other over-border things.
> 
> Due to my Ne-Ti nature or just because I read a lot and love science (and I am aerospace engineer), I am not anti-intellectual like some descriptions say (especially Naranjo). I can be in-my-head for quite a long time. I have positive sides of 7ish description but no gluttony or fears of the type. I have some positive sides of 4ish description but no envy.
> 
> 
> 
> Ask more roud:


Have you read Maitri? Daniels? Any Helen Palmer "enneagram in love and work, and the enneagram" 

Because those delve deeply into what each type truly is and their hidden motivations.

Until you have, you don't get a very good grasp of any of it I am afraid.


----------



## Doll

@Aha - I also see a lot of type 7, just because there's a scattered vibe to you that's more akin to a 7w8 vibe and less of a 8w7. You have more variety in your actions and you seem more about experience and sensation, less about the intense focus I would normally associate with an 8... especially an sx-first 8.


----------



## Aha

Doll said:


> @_Aha_ - I also see a lot of type 7, just because there's a scattered vibe to you that's more akin to a 7w8 vibe and less of a 8w7. You have more variety in your actions and you seem *more about experience and sensation, less about the intense focus* I would normally associate with an 8... especially an sx-first 8.


That is one of the reason why I am more 8 than 7. I am less into experience and sensation and more intense focus


----------



## Bricolage

Doll said:


> @_Aha_ - I also see a lot of type 7, just because there's a scattered vibe to you that's more akin to a 7w8 vibe and less of a 8w7. You have more variety in your actions and you seem more about experience and sensation, less about the intense focus I would normally associate with an 8... especially an sx-first 8.


I personally think of Sx as more scattered and following random Sx interests ~potentially less focused.


----------



## Aha

LeoCat said:


> Have you read *Maitri? Daniels?* Any Helen Palmer "enneagram in love and work, and the enneagram"
> 
> Because those delve deeply into what each type truly is and their hidden motivations.
> 
> Until you have, you don't get a very good grasp of any of it I am afraid.


Maitri and Daniels about 8 and 7. The other author I did not read


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> Maitri and Daniels about 8 and 7. The other author I did not read


You're not missing much with Helen Palmer. :laughing:


----------



## Aha

Kink said:


> @_Aha_
> Not gonna lie, you strike me as more of a 7 too. At least you don't seem to glorify type 8, so I don't assume you're typing that way for romantic reasons as some people might do, but I do wonder how in-depth you've looked into type 7 before deciding against it.


8 and 7 are "my" types. I always read about both. In percentages, 8 fits me ~90% overall, 7 ~70%


----------



## Sixty Nein

Bricolage said:


> I personally think of Sx as more scattered and following random Sx interests ~potentially less focused.


It can be, but it could also be hyper-focused too y'know?

Anyways I see @Aha as an 7, not necessarily because of the fact that he is "scatterbrained" (which he isn't really), but mostly due to the fact that he is more etherealish and who's psychological defense mechanisms seem to be triggered in a way that allow him to disconnect easier, while also sampling it. Where as the type 8 (or all gut types really) have this sort of feeling that they are trying to numb the affects rather than just getting burned and pulling out the hand. I don't necessarily see the type 7 or 8 as being more intense than or the other. The type 7 is more likely to have more intense physical sensations whereas the type 8 is more intense in their presentation.

It's vague as shit though.


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> In percentages, 8 fits me ~90% overall, 7 ~70%


That sounds a little iffy way to go about it - mainly because some descriptions can suck ass. Are you more a reactive type or positive outlook type?


----------



## Bricolage

Necrophilous said:


> It can be, but it could also be hyper-focused too y'know?
> 
> Anyways I see @_Aha_ as an 7, not necessarily because of the fact that he is "scatterbrained" (which he isn't really), but mostly due to the fact that he is more etherealish and who's psychological defense mechanisms seem to be triggered in a way that allow him to disconnect easier, while also sampling it. Where as the type 8 (or all gut types really) have this sort of feeling that they are trying to numb the affects rather than just getting burned and pulling out the hand. I don't necessarily see the type 7 or 8 as being more intense than or the other. The type 7 is more likely to have more intense physical sensations whereas the type 8 is more intense in their presentation.
> 
> It's vague as shit though.


All that and I think we're talking about 7w8 vs. 8w7 rather than 7w6 (hyper enthusiastic and childlike ~ totally not 8) or 8w9 (not that confusable with 7w6 or 7w8 honestly).


----------



## Aha

Necrophilous said:


> It can be, but it could also be hyper-focused too y'know?
> 
> Anyways I see @_Aha_ as an 7, not necessarily because of the fact that he is "scatterbrained" (which he isn't really), but mostly due to the fact that he is more etherealish and who's psychological defense mechanisms seem to be triggered in a way that allow him to disconnect easier, while also sampling it. Where as the type 8 (or all gut types really) have this sort of feeling that they are trying to numb the affects rather than just getting burned and pulling out the hand. I don't necessarily see the type 7 or 8 as being more intense than or the other. The type 7 is more likely to have more intense physical sensations whereas the type 8 is more intense in their presentation.
> 
> It's vague as shit though.


It is not that vague. The difference is clear. Even as you point that out here.

Your representation of differences is rather a + to my list of why I am sure of my type


----------



## Aha

Bricolage said:


> That sounds a little iffy way to go about it - mainly because some descriptions can suck ass. Are you more a reactive type or positive outlook type?


Reactive. If you go around me flailing hands I might kick you accidentally :laughing:

But I consider myself also quite positive. I am realist with an optimistic touch. In social settings, I can inspire people to look on the bright side of things but I have trouble to do that myself. I am very different when extroverting and when alone.


----------



## Aha

Moar questions! :happy:

But read the whole conversation if you just arrived here!


----------



## Aha

hal0hal0 said:


> I think @_Aha_ is hilarious, which says nothing much about his enneatype, but the dude has literally made me lol at least 5 times this week, which deserves some sort of kudos/mention.
> 
> I'd go so far as to say humor is just as important, if not more so, than enneagram (well, they're both pretty cool ).


Thank you! roud:

My current motto is _Honour & Humour_. 

You could ask some questions too! I am so enjoying all this attention on me! :happy:


p.s. I am going to sleep right now. Its 4am


----------



## Watercolourful

Animal said:


> A 7w6 could easily confuse themselves with an 8 though, because of the go-forth attitude, feeling of general strength & zest for life (lust) and that they see other people "emoting" about things that just roll right off their back. Also 7s in general are more physical and sensational which sounds an awful lot like "lust" to their own ears.
> 
> 6s mistype at 8 a lot and some 6s have a general feeling of callousness or tough attitude about them.
> 
> 7s are surrounded by reactive types - 8 and 6 - and have another line to a gut-type 1, and a line to 5, so it's a lot of similar influences to 8.
> 
> Any type of 7 confusing themselves with an 8 is not that unlikely.


Just to expand on this, I'm a 7w6 but when I was first seriously looking at Enneagram my guess was that I was likely an 8. Honestly, I don't relate at all to the idea of being hyperactive, bubbly, entertaining and happy-go-lucky. I think the general standard 7w6 description is really limiting. I'm not going to say there are no 7w6s like that, but for people like me, when the fundamentals of what it actually is to be 7w6 are hidden behind words like "comedian" it's not difficult to see where mistypes would happen. Just my two cents.


----------



## Doll

Bricolage said:


> I personally think of Sx as more scattered and following random Sx interests ~potentially less focused.


This might be true for some. For me, my interests aren't very random (they usually follow a pattern, intense relationships, ect, although I can go through a series of these relationships over a short period of time). Once I have an interest I'm hyper-focused on it. I don't skip to the next thing unless I'm not getting what I want/need from the current person/experience of interest.

I've experienced the only sx 8w7 I know as being very direct and no nonsense, but very... fiery, is the best word I can think of, without sounding like I'm glorifying the type. Which I'm not. That person was just extremely difficult to be around at times. @_Aha_ 's energy seems more sporadic, the type to smack you in the arm and then run off laughing. Of course he could be different in real life, but all I have to go on is what I've witnessed within the forum... and here, I've never seen much argument for type 8.


----------



## Bricolage

It's late y'all. Let's groove to this.


----------



## Coburn

Schweeeeks said:


> Question: Can anyone describe Sp in a concrete and non-boring way?
































> Everywhere I look, it's like "I want to be comfortable, preferably physically comfortable. I like paying bills, because I don't want the police to bust down my door and take me away from these awesome pillows I'm sleeping on."


Dude...are you even reading any of the threads on here? That crap has been disproven on several sp-themed threads already.


----------



## Sixty Nein

A question I have to ask here is why do people seem to think that the "ate" always refers to the majority of them as being sixes or something? I mean only a few of them really come off as sixes, most of which are some sort of egotistical type who suffered a particularly nasty narcissistic wound.

Fuck here is something novel, they are 8s, but they are dumbshits anyways.


----------



## Coburn

Necrophilous said:


> Fuck here is something novel, they are 8s, but they are dumbshits anyways.


Hahahaha. That legitimately cracked me up. Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## Sina

Necrophilous said:


> I'm just going to give you a list of things that I gathered about your own character. As well as the reason as to why I think you are such.
> 
> 1 - The layer of defenses that I'm talking about is that you always seem to try to make it seem like that you can always escape potential humiliation through the "troll" defense card. Compared this to say @_Cosmic Orgasm_ and Jeserone. Individuals who are generally fairly direct and are more willing to "endure" and "power through" arguments. I believe the difference here is that they have already set their minds into whatever path that they decide to follow, and are fairly cocksure of their abilities to steamroll through it. I do not think of you as something like that, you are more...reactionary to the moment. Sort of like how'd imagine a head type would be like.


I have found 7w8s to be fairly relentless in arguments. Some can be downright inexhaustible, minus the push-pull explosiveness of cp6. It's actually a steadier "aggression" (line to 1). @_Animal_'s dad and I would have a field day. :laughing: 

But, there's definitely a "minimizing" quality to 7s and 7 fixers when it comes to conflict, so its overall importance is undermined regardless of when they choose to stop "playing". 

As for what you said of me, it quite honestly takes no "endurance" for me to smack some dumbass and watch them scatter and flail. In a serious discussion or objective argument with someone I consider an equal or superior in skill and knowledge, I can find great pleasure in a, hopefully, intense exchange and keep going as long as I am learning and extracting the most intensity from the experience. 

When my point is made much earlier and/ or there's nothing else left to squeeze the fuck out of an exchange, not even a speck of good ol' entertainment, I have no trouble walking away and most certainly have. It's not, however, "premature" in the sense of not being able to stand the heat or not being able to accept fault. I am completely at home in a heated exchange or conflict, and I am secure enough to learn from my mistakes.

The "steamrolling" through point is a sound one. It's mostly unconscious as I don't go in calculating moves. I am aware that I have an impactful presence, and people often feel like they've been steamrolled over, even when I couldn't have cared less about that. It's also an accurate remark in that I don't passive aggressively retreat, nor do I let people passive aggressively pull away and take the 'high road'. :laughing:, especially when they're the ones who've started shit. Naah, you don't stir shit and get to turn around and walk off. The 'conflict' ends on my terms, not yours.  It's very obvious that their pretty lil asses are chapped, and that makes it even more tempting to drag them out by their tails and smack em around a few more times before I let them go. The number of times people here are silly enough to literally lay out the welcome mat for me...it's hilarious. XD





> 2 - This is a fairly stupid thing to point out, but I believe there is potential wisdom in the fact that you try to present yourself as more of a trickster than someone who is overwhelmingly powerful. The power of the 7 comes through "knowing which way to go", instead of "being objectively right" like the 8. There is a feeling of rightness being more of something that is in flux than something that is aroused in the totality of all things. Like the gut types. Compared the feeling tones to Holy Transparency, Holy Strength, and Holy Wisdom to Holy Magnanimity (or innocence), Holy Love and Holy Perfection.


Not a 'stupid' point, at all. There is potential wisdom there, as long as you keep in mind that the trickster defense can be just that...a defense. 

Also, the term "ate" is generally used for a certain brand of unhealthy disintegrated 6. They are many, btw, not few. It doesn't mean everyone mistyped at 8 is a 6. Besides, 1s, 6s, other than the types described, 3s, 7s, even 5s, social 2s etc. can mistype at 8 without being an "ate".


----------



## Aha

Doll said:


> This might be true for some. For me, my interests aren't very random (they usually follow a pattern, intense relationships, ect, although I can go through a series of these relationships over a short period of time). Once I have an interest I'm hyper-focused on it. I don't skip to the next thing unless I'm not getting what I want/need from the current person/experience of interest.
> 
> I've experienced the only sx 8w7 I know as being very direct and no nonsense, but very... fiery, is the best word I can think of, without sounding like I'm glorifying the type. Which I'm not. That person was just extremely difficult to be around at times. @_Aha_ 's energy seems more sporadic, the type to smack you in the arm and then run off laughing. Of course he could be different in real life, but all I have to go on is what I've witnessed within the forum... and here, I've never seen much argument for type 8.


Sporadic? Elaborate? How do you even gauge an energy by a forum presence? By smiles and gifs?

Lets talk about energy. I, each day, spend about 6 megacalories. I can use the same amount of energy within fewer hours if I push myself to maximum all the time of training. Which I had trouble not to do when I was younger. My trainer always had mixed feelings about my sporting enthusiasm. On one hand - it's good for sport. On the other - it is not good to start a ride/exercise on your full power.

"smack you in the arm and then run off laughing" - I don't use mobile internet. I may post something and return to my computer only a day after that. IRL when I smack you "in the arm" I laugh, but it is the smacked who runs. 

Another point I want to make:
I do not put an 8 in my profile because I like this number. I like 1 more, for that matter. And I like descriptions of 5w4 and 7 more than 8. I do not put it there because it would be a lie. The act which I despise in people most of all. 
The world will burn before I decide to fit any stereotype. I do not come to this forum for such nonsense. 
At the moment, I deem myself capable of typing people - I did read A LOT of material on the subject.

As for my head fix - I was torn between 7w8 and 5w4. I am much more worried about being incompetent and unknowledgable than not being entertained. I decided for 7 because of such a magical words like visionary, enthusiasm, humour, etc. And being "in clouds" (sx description by Chestnut). Also because 5 is phlegmatic (I am 0% phlegmatic). I think that integration point is enough to "grant" my connection to the 5.

FYI, the only other slightly probably for me type would be a 1w9sx. I do not consider head or heart types as a core anymore. But I would love to answer your questions, if you are interested why.
Ask questions :happy:


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> Sporadic? Elaborate? How do you even gauge an energy by a forum presence? By smiles and gifs?
> 
> Lets talk about energy. I, each day, spend about 6 megacalories. I can use the same amount of energy within fewer hours if I push myself to maximum all the time of training. Which I had trouble not to do when I was younger. My trainer always had mixed feelings about my sporting enthusiasm. On one hand - it's good for sport. On the other - it is not good to start a ride/exercise on your full power.
> 
> "smack you in the arm and then run off laughing" - I don't use mobile internet. I may post something and return to my computer only a day after that. IRL when I smack you "in the arm" I laugh, but it is the smacked who runs.
> 
> Another point I want to make:
> I do not put an 8 in my profile because I like this number. I like 1 more, for that matter. And I like descriptions of 5w4 and 7 more than 8. I do not put it there because it would be a lie. The act which I despise in people most of all.
> The world will burn before I decide to fit any stereotype. I do not come to this forum for such nonsense.
> At the moment, I deem myself capable of typing people - I did read A LOT of material on the subject.
> 
> As for my head fix - I was torn between 7w8 and 5w4. I am much more worried about being incompetent and unknowledgable than not being entertained. I decided for 7 because of such a magical words like visionary, enthusiasm, humour, etc. And being "in clouds" (sx description by Chestnut). Also because 5 is phlegmatic (I am 0% phlegmatic). I think that integration point is enough to "grant" my connection to the 5.
> 
> FYI, the only other slightly probably for me type would be a 1w9sx. I do not consider head or heart types as a core anymore. But I would love to answer your questions, if you are interested why.
> Ask questions :happy:


1w9 lol. Um no.


----------



## Aha

Bricolage said:


> 1w9 lol. Um no.


:laughing:

You still do not know what my _honour code_ consists of :ninja: Haha. I sometimes more righteous than any super-ego type I ever met.


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> :laughing:
> 
> You still do not know what my _honour code_ consists of :ninja: Haha. I sometimes more righteous than any super-ego type I ever met.


Apparently eights have honor and their word - Tony Montana lol - and ones have integrity. That's true for my 1 dad at least.


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> :laughing:
> 
> You still do not know what my _honour code_ consists of :ninja: Haha. I sometimes more righteous than any super-ego type I ever met.


You're id brah. Not superego.


----------



## Aha

Bricolage said:


> You're id brah. Not superego.


Well thanks doc :wink:

The righteous thingy and/aka my _honour code, _I believe, are of my ego-ideal and are the only super-ego evident on me. I rarely have any sort of conflict inside. I imagine it like my super-ego died with a heroic death sometime in my early childhood by plunging into an immensity of id, creating some sort of block and carrying with itself the worst of me. (just like Gandalf fought Balrog ; or 9-tails block :laughing


----------



## Sina

Aha said:


> :laughing:
> 
> You still do not know what my _honour code_ consists of :ninja: Haha. I sometimes more righteous than any super-ego type I ever met.


Yeah, I can be self righteous as fuck. I can be so fuckin self-righteously haughty, that it's hilarious. I am one smug hypocritical bitch. :laughing:


Tell me about your honour code. Also, I want to skype with you.


----------



## Aha

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Yeah, I can be self righteous as fuck. I can be so fuckin self-righteously haughty, that it's hilarious. I am one smug hypocritical bitch. :laughing:
> 
> 
> Tell me about your honour code. Also, I want to skype with you.












I must write it down (h.c.) in an impressive form first :happy: One moment...


----------



## Aha

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Tell me about your honour code.


Improvised writing. I might forget some crucial points, but I am interested to systemize it myself

1. Do not kill those who do not deserve it
2. Do not severely damage those who do not deserve it
3. Do not lie (except in extra-extreme situations)
4. Keep your word whatever the cost (except in extra-extreme situations when it infringes other rules)
5. Do not steal girls. Do not rape without consent, etc. Do not hit girls except when they are attacking me
6. Do not betray in any way (trust, relationship, etc.)
7. Be an example for everyone
8. Avenge those who hurt my friends and people who cannot stand for themselves. Bring justice _(although it is very subjective)_
9. Do not kill yourself (don't smoke/drug/drink/unsafesex etc.)
10. Smile 

I can think of something else but those are basics

My super-ego is rather funny. I don't deal with right and wrong at all. All is accepted if it does not infringe the clauses mentioned above


----------



## stargazing grasshopper

Aha said:


> FYI, the only other slight probability for my type would be a 1w9sx. I do not consider head or heart types as a core anymore. But I would love to answer your questions, if you are interested why.
> Ask questions :happy:


1w9 can be very self critical, over think most everything & make life much harder for themselves than it ought to be. 
You'd likely be happier as an 8w7, going through life without a care for what others think & a willingness to smack em all upside the head as required.
Ahh to be an 8w7 for just one day, look out world!


----------



## Animal

stargazing grasshopper said:


> 1w9 can be very self critical, over think most everything & make life much harder for themselves than it ought to be.
> You'd likely be happier as an 8w7, going through life without a care for what others think & a willingness to smack em all upside the head as required.
> Ahh to be an 8w7 for just one day, look out world!


Not sure about this. I've met miserable 8s. One 8 that I know was lost in anger and eventually made a turnaround into a happier person, but prior to that, even by his own admission, he was angry and hated the world, felt rejected by the world, etc. My mother is a 1 and was always a relatively happy person until there were too many problems in her life all at once. She does have an inner critic etc, but it doesn't make her miserable, it just inspires her to improve.


I don't think how happy someone truly is, is related to enneagram. How someone projects whatever happiness they have, might be related to enneagram.


----------



## hal0hal0

Animal said:


> My mother is a 1 and was always a relatively happy person until there were too many problems in her life all at once. She does have an inner critic etc, but it doesn't make her miserable, it just inspires her to improve.


I'm probably glorifying the competency group, but I really admire anyone who can set aside their personal differences to get the job done (to the point that I have trouble seeing fault with this particular strategy, even though they may "cut themselves off" from themselves if that becomes too much of a focus). I've said before that I would greatly prefer an asshole doctor who nevertheless cared about doing his job well/competently, than a touchy-feely doc who is afraid of hurting my feelings or making me cry (... I'm sorta projecting here; I have a habit of "playing diplomat" and being excessively polite, but I do try my best to tell the truth, while balancing that with basic human kindness.

I have toyed with the idea that:



*Positive Outlook* = False positivity = blindspot may be neglecting the whole picture or denying there is a problem.
*Competency Outlook* = False neutrality = blindspot may be a neglect of personal ethos, feelings or values (aren't this types known for being... somewhat icy/cold?)
*Reactive *= False negativity = Playing devil's advocate and amplifying one's emotional state.

My dad's an ISTJ 6 and has amplified those negative consequences particularly when things are either unclear, uncertain or outside his control (i.e., trusting others... he has a very "if you want something done right, do it yourself" and is a freaking workhorse; I really do admire how dependable he is and I try to do the same myself).

(90% sure of his type... he gets hangups about uncertainty, doubt, vagueness, not having a clear picture of the scenario, flips between phobic/counterphobic... he's actually more rebellious than I ever was/am if it's something he just doesn't trust). 

I do agree with RH that the reactive/emotional realness types can have strong likes/dislikes. 



Animal said:


> I don't think how happy someone truly is, is related to enneagram. How someone projects whatever happiness they have, might be related to enneagram.


Agreed.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

hal0hal0 said:


> I'm probably glorifying the competency group, but I really admire anyone who can set aside their personal differences to get the job done (to the point that I have trouble seeing fault with this particular strategy, even though they may "cut themselves off" from themselves if that becomes too much of a focus).


I wish I was better at this myself (because I am absolutely awful at it), though I wouldn't want to overdo it either.^^; 

Now I'm wondering how much of a pattern it is to which types tend to glorify other types. I'm sure not every type 4 glorify the competency group, but considering how the type is surrounded by them, it'd be fitting. :tongue:


----------



## Schweeeeks

Marlowe said:


> Dude...are you even reading any of the threads on here? That crap has been disproven on several sp-themed threads already.


I was exaggerating to make a point.
I've read some of the threads here, yes. The Instinctual Stackings sticky thread by @Cosmic Orgasm has been a constant go to for example.
It just seems difficult to word the essence of Sp in a way that "competes" with So and Sx. I was hoping for an explanation that I could sell to someone for lack of a better word. Nobody should really choose type by what sounds cool, but it's still a lurking thing.

Also I've found more "positive" indicators of Sx and So than I have of Sp. Seems easier to detect. 
Figured other people may have ideas in laymen's terms (Thanks @Necrophilous).


----------



## Kintsugi

Blue Flare said:


> Seriously I hate to see that this thread devolved into a witch hunt. Acting like a gang against one person.


Agreed. I'm not sure how an attempt to publicly shame and humiliate another person is supposed to be helpful to their self-typing process. There is a big difference between being direct and assertive and just being downright aggressive and provocative, IMO.


----------



## Sara Torailles

In other words, I give people consent to discuss my type.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Kintsugi said:


> Agreed. I'm not sure how an attempt to publicly shame and humiliate another person is supposed to be helpful to their self-typing process. There is a big difference between being direct and assertive and just being downright aggressive and provocative, IMO.


Strikes me as a bit hypocritical (and over-dramatic) considering who it's coming from, though. But eh.


----------



## Kintsugi

Kink said:


> Strikes me as a bit hypocritical (and over-dramatic) considering who it's coming from, though. But eh.


So the assumption here is that someone is being hypocritical for a reason that has not been explicitly stated?

Regardless of this _opinion, _my own view on the matter still remains. And besides, to reject an argument on the basis that so-and-so is "hypocritical" is not relevant to the point I was making.


----------



## Bricolage

Schweeeeks said:


> I was exaggerating to make a point.
> I've read some of the threads here, yes. The Instinctual Stackings sticky thread by @_Cosmic Orgasm_ has been a constant go to for example.
> *It just seems difficult to word the essence of Sp in a way that "competes" with So and Sx.* I was hoping for an explanation that I could sell to someone for lack of a better word. Nobody should really choose type by what sounds cool, but it's still a lurking thing.
> 
> *Also I've found more "positive" indicators of Sx and So than I have of Sp. Seems easier to detect. *
> Figured other people may have ideas in laymen's terms (Thanks @_Necrophilous_).


I don't "get" these points. It's easy for me to spot the three instincts and which is dominant in people. 

A shortcut trick I've found is to look at where people spend money - on friends/bars (maybe So-dom), practical things (Sp-dom) etc. The place where the person never spends time/money is probably his or her blindspot - last instinct. 

I think Sp-dom is probably the easiest to quickly spot. :bored:

Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Bricolage said:


> A shortcut trick I've found is to look at where people spend money - on friends/bars (maybe So-dom), practical things (Sp-dom) etc. The place where the person never spends time/money is probably his or her blindspot - last instinct.


what about those who dont spend their money ?


----------



## Bricolage

crashbandicoot said:


> what about those who dont spend their money ?


I suppose that shortcut is limited to just over 99% of the population. :tongue: Although I think saving and creating a rainy day fund is more Sp than anything.


----------



## -Alpha-

Bricolage said:


> I don't "get" these points. It's easy for me to spot the three instincts and which is dominant in people.
> 
> A shortcut trick I've found is to look at where people spend money - on friends/bars (maybe So-dom), practical things (Sp-dom) etc. The place where the person never spends time/money is probably his or her blindspot - last instinct.
> 
> I think Sp-dom is probably the easiest to quickly spot. :bored:
> 
> Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings


I generally spend money on sex...

Time to type change, I guess.


----------



## Paradigm

hal0hal0 said:


> I have toyed with the idea that:
> 
> 
> *Positive Outlook* = False positivity = blindspot may be neglecting the whole picture or denying there is a problem.
> *Competency Outlook* = False neutrality = blindspot may be a neglect of personal ethos, feelings or values (aren't this types known for being... somewhat icy/cold?)
> *Reactive *= False negativity = Playing devil's advocate and amplifying one's emotional state.


So this one time, my friend and I got into an argument over D&d alignments, and what made a person neutral vs good. He thought I was a "true neutral" mostly just because I'm apathetic (depression + Fi valuing), whereas I thought I was "neutral good" because I believe in Doing the Right Thing even if I can't always do so. 

Then again we also got into a big fight over my negativity, so... Hm.

(He's ENTP 3w2, "chaotic neutral"  )




> My dad's an ISTJ 6 and has amplified those negative consequences particularly when things are either unclear, uncertain or outside his control (i.e., trusting others... he has a very "if you want something done right, do it yourself" and is a freaking workhorse; I really do admire how dependable he is and I try to do the same myself).


I do sort of focus on what could go wrong, but I'm always wary about using Ne-inf as a model for 6 xD They could make a living out of crises. Then again, thinking about what I focus on... Could be a bit of Se-inf. I'm most anxious when I'm not in familiar surroundings, or when I feel trapped.



Schweeeeks said:


> It just seems difficult to word the essence of Sp in a way that "competes" with So and Sx. I was hoping for an explanation that I could sell to someone for lack of a better word. Nobody should really choose type by what sounds cool, but it's still a lurking thing.
> Also I've found more "positive" indicators of Sx and So than I have of Sp. Seems easier to detect.


Sp isn't cool? ._.
I love my Sp...

No but really, it's a newb mistake to say "oh I'm introverted, must be SOC-last!" and type as either sp/sx or sx/sp. I wouldn't say it's seen as boring, IME.


----------



## Bricolage

-Alpha- said:


> I generally spend money on sex...
> 
> Time to type change, I guess.


The Sx instinct isn't only about sex. In this context it's spending money on obsessions/things that get you off like skydiving or some fucking pokemon cards that you REALLY need, for example. 



> *Sexual instinct can be called the instinct of attraction. It’s aggressive, competitive, single-minded, "all-or-nothing". Use of this energy is intensely fiery and affirmative, go-get-it approach, a life-and-death matter e.g. salmon swimming upstream to mate and die. With this instincts you are either turned on or you're not - it is what it is; you cannot fight mother nature. With this instinct one's attention is wholly captivated energetically by someone or something.
> 
> The SX energy is described as "high energy" and is often experienced as "intense", "assertive", "laser-like", "intently focused", "playful yet penetrating" in nature. The feeling of SX-first is sometimes compared to being on a roller-coaster ride even though you aren't on one. This subtype will "sacrifice for the relationship" to insure intensity connection. This intensity does not have to be met by another person—it can be satisfied by a project, hobby, or special interest. Rather than looking inward or to the group to resolve their problems and challenges, these types tend to look to close relations and activities that can guarantee them an experience of liveliness and intensity.
> 
> SX-first people enjoy feeling invigorated. They may fantasize about scenarios that make them feel alive and that are emotionally stimulating. Key words: activation, immersion, charisma, broadcasting displays, fusion, inspiration, volatility.
> 
> Sexual subtypes are not to be confused with having a healthy sex drive or being sexy, which is a common reason for many people misidentifying themselves as SX-primaries. The name of this instinct is misleading as, in the end, all instincts play into sexuality. SP is the body-to-body part - cuddling, sensuality, autonomic regulation. SX is riding the waves of energy, the invisible forces of attraction between the people, but it doesn't need to be actively physical. In a union, all three instincts combine—warmth (self-pres), energy (sexual), affection (social). One can have the sexual instinct operating in a group of friends—being in the heat, stimulated, energized, engaged. In relationships, there is a desire for endless engagement and fascination.
> 
> Topics SX types might bring up in conversation: their personal experiences, personal attractions, personal likes and dislikes, innermost wants and wishes, relationships, their family, children, and friends, friendship, closeness, intimacy, sex, mating, beauty, attractiveness, personal feelings and mental states, excitement, intensity, desire, obsession, liveliness, rebelliousness, action sports, gender and gender roles, femininity/masculinity. (sx-first people often report having strong personal preferences)
> 
> Summary of SX instinct
> 
> primary concern - intense experiences, connections, and contacts, wide-ranging and exploratory, in order to find something to "complete" them inside (sky diving, deep conversations, exciting movies)
> primary focus - people and attractions promising intense energy and charge
> primary ambition - looking outside themselves for the person or situation that will complete them, and then obsessing over that completing element
> primary stresses - lack of intense mental or emotional stimulation, lack of an intense connection or experience
> coping methods (unhealthy) - scattered attention, lack of focus, sexual promiscuity, intensely avoiding intense experiences and connections with a fearful and dysfunctional attitude toward sex, intimacy, and other intense "completing" experiences, as is skewed by the secondary instinct
> *


----------



## Bricolage

-Alpha- said:


> I generally spend money on sex...
> 
> Time to type change, I guess.


I don't know about changing your type (although type 3 INTJ isn't that common), but you might want to reinvestigate what the Sx instinct means lol.


----------



## -Alpha-

Bricolage said:


> I don't know about changing your type (although type 3 INTJ isn't that common), but you might want to reinvestigate what the Sx instinct means lol.


It was a joke predicated on that misunderstanding implying that I spend money on prostitutes.


----------



## Entropic

hal0hal0 said:


> (aren't this types known for being... somewhat icy/cold?)


I think that may apply to 1s and 5s for various reasons: 1s being so because they try to repress their emotional states all the time in order to prevent themselves from being angry, and 5s because of how they constantly detach and don't seek involvement in life and the current situation/people, but 3s are pretty darn emotional imo. Their "coldness" lies more in how they maintain shallow levels of interaction out of the fear of being rejected (as shallow, the most ironically).



Kink said:


> Strikes me as a bit hypocritical (and over-dramatic) considering who it's coming from, though. But eh.


So essentially you agree on that I am an aggressive and assertive person? Good. I would say it's a very poor reading of my character to suggest otherwise. With that said, I also have fucking standards.


----------



## -Alpha-

ephemereality said:


> I think that may apply to 1s and 5s for various reasons: 1s being so because they try to repress their emotional states all the time in order to prevent themselves from being angry, and 5s because of how they constantly detach and don't seek involvement in life and the current situation/people, but 3s are pretty darn emotional imo. Their "coldness" lies more in how they maintain shallow levels of interaction out of the fear of being rejected (as shallow, the most ironically).
> 
> 
> 
> So essentially you agree on that I am an aggressive and assertive person? Good. I would say it's a very poor reading of my character to suggest otherwise. With that said, I also have fucking standards.


I'm disgustingly type 3 and I approve this message.


----------



## Aha




----------



## drmiller100

Aha said:


> Improvised writing. I might forget some crucial points, but I am interested to systemize it myself
> 
> 1. Do not kill those who do not deserve it
> 2. Do not severely damage those who do not deserve it
> 3. Do not lie (except in extra-extreme situations)
> 4. Keep your word whatever the cost (except in extra-extreme situations when it infringes other rules)
> 5. Do not steal girls. Do not rape without consent, etc. Do not hit girls except when they are attacking me
> 6. Do not betray in any way (trust, relationship, etc.)
> 7. Be an example for everyone
> 8. Avenge those who hurt my friends and people who cannot stand for themselves. Bring justice _(although it is very subjective)_
> 9. Do not kill yourself (don't smoke/drug/drink/unsafesex etc.)
> 10. Smile
> 
> I can think of something else but those are basics
> 
> My super-ego is rather funny. I don't deal with right and wrong at all. All is accepted if it does not infringe the clauses mentioned above


1. Try not to hurt others. Destroying an evil predator should be done without hurting them as much as possible.
2. Be impeccable with my word.
3. Examine assumptions.
4. Remember it is not about me.
5. Do my best, and acknowledge mistakes and learn from them.
6. Protect the innocent by destroying the predators.
7. My path is no one else's. 
8, I do get to judge.

This month's topic for personal growth: I am enough.


----------



## Scelerat

Blue Flare said:


> Seriously I hate to see that this thread devolved into a witch hunt. Acting like a gang against one person (in this case doing this shit to @_ephemereality_ ) is fucking low, even more as I've seen this shit at least twice in this same thread. You're just a bunch of hyenas that belong to 4chan or some random anime forum. Even the trolls of those places have more dignity than you. You should do something more productive than witch hunting people and showing your crap understanding of Enneagram.


Now now, as I stated originally, I have no real interest in what @_ephemereality_ is typing at this minute, what I am questioning is his ability and position as an "authority" among some people on this forum. I have respect for his knowledge of type and I wish he had as much skill in applying it as he does in reading about it. 

However, given the situation at hand and the exchange that was had, it leaves 2 options: 

1. He has a tendency towards confirmation bias/Forer effect/subjective validation. In which case his statements must be taken with a grain of salt. 

2. He is openly disingenuous for his own entertainment quite habitually in multiple type me threads. In which case people cannot really trust his input, as he may just be amusing himself at their expense.


----------



## Sina

@_Necrophilous_

based on a typing thread of yours i had seen and some other shit i've noticed that i can't be assed to type out, you strike me as a clear 6w7. i think it was @_Swordsman of Mana_ who brought it up once. i looked into 7w6 as well, and it doesn't work. i'd happy to give you my reasoning at a later time. remind me if i don't get back to you in a few weeks.

____________________________________

@_Ace Face_, @_Doll_ and @_hal0hal0_

thanks always for your input guys. i know i haven't gotten back to, at least, two of you on your typing analysis that was shared months ago (hal0's was recent). i have taken it in and processed it. Doll and i have recently had a fun chat about this, that, typing, 'masochism' :kitteh: and other stuffz. XD so, i appreciate it all. i will address you guys at some point when i have the energy to get into deeper themes and more. i haven't forgotten. :3


----------



## Animal

Scelerat said:


> Now now, as I stated originally, I have no real interest in what @_ephemereality_ is typing at this minute, what I am questioning is his ability and position as an "authority" among some people on this forum. I have respect for his knowledge of type and I wish he had as much skill in applying it as he does in reading about it.
> 
> However, given the situation at hand and the exchange that was had, it leaves 2 options:
> 
> 1. He has a tendency towards confirmation bias/Forer effect/subjective validation. In which case his statements must be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> 2. He is openly disingenuous for his own entertainment quite habitually in multiple type me threads. In which case people cannot really trust his input, as he may just be amusing himself at their expense.


There is really no authority where typing is concerned. Different people have different points of expertise, but sometimes even a dumb-fuck mistype who barely glossed over an online description, offers some "fool on the hill" type insight into your personality that you didn't think of.

To use an example of how I approach things, I take all insights into account but discard the ones that don't make sense. A lot of times someones typing suggestions about me, say more about them than they do about me. Hearing what they think about me as a person (which comes out in a typing discussion) can give insight about me SOMETIMES, but more likely it shows more about the typer than the typee. It's a learning experience and interesting either way.

@_Cosmic Orgasm_, in my opinion, is one of the best typers on the forum. She has taught me more about real-life application of enneagram, singlehandedly, than any other 20 people combined on forum. Still, I don't always agree with her. I'm pretty sure she'd type me at 7w6-4w3-1w9 in that order, whereas I am currently self-typing 4 core. I've heard a billion 4 arguments and a couple of 7 arguments, and so far her 7 case holds up in a way that counts the most, though I still think core 4, but.. she has made a clear enough case and knows me well, so it's not like "but you don't know me!!"…. instead, its more that we might disagree about the application of certain parts of theory, or, there might be a part of me that I feel operates from a different place than she observes. That's fine either way. Her insights about me AND enneagram are helpful whether we end up agreeing on a number or not.

@_Paradigm_ and Cosmic both mentioned some great arguments re: 3 wing, and I'm coming to type closer to 4w3 atm. The case made sense ultimately, even if I balked at first. I did my reading, processed the things I was uncomfortable about, and ultimately made that choice. Although she too would type me at 7, whcih I still disagree with.

In most cases, Cosmic tells me about her opinion of someone else's typing, and no matter how adamantly I disagree, I come to see it her way eventually (on my own, bearing her arguments in mind). However - in at least one case, maybe two.. she has ultimately come to agree with my typing of another member, which was different from her own in the first place. So I would not call her an "authority," even if her percentage is higher than mine, in terms of what I deem 'ultimately correct.' I also take a lot longer to come to actual conclusions - and I don't think she has talked me out of an actual CONCLUSION yet, but only a hypothesis. In the few cases I can think of where I had a conclusion about someone's type, like "it's ABSOLUTELY X " or "its ABSOLUTELY not X" - she did ultimately contemplate it and come to see my point. But of course there are still some people and typings where we might still debate or disagree, respectfully.

If I had to name one person whose opinion holds weight to me, its her. But that doesn't mean she's an authority or always right, or that I can't be "more right" on some occasions. ;D


----------



## Scelerat

Animal said:


> There is really no authority where typing is concerned. Different people have different points of expertise, but sometimes even a dumb-fuck mistype who barely glossed over an online description, offers some "fool on the hill" type insight into your personality that you didn't think of.
> 
> To use an example of how I approach things, I take all insights into account but discard the ones that don't make sense. A lot of times someones typing suggestions about me, say more about them than they do about me. Hearing what they think about me as a person (which comes out in a typing discussion) can give insight about me SOMETIMES, but more likely it shows more about the typer than the typee. It's a learning experience and interesting either way.


Which is a good approach to take, however some who are fairly "nooby" about typing, can easily take the ability to assert an opinion strongly and repeatedly as certainty/accuracy. There is a reason why "Repeat something often and loudly" is a standard tool in most propaganda machines.


----------



## Sixty Nein

I'll hold you onto that @Cosmic Orgasm

maybe.


----------



## TakeAnUmbrella

Hi there!

I'm new here and have just discovered enneagram theory thanks to this forum. 

How are you meant to tell which one you are? I've done 4 free tests so far and have got a different answer each time. 9,8,7,6 respectively. 

However, the free floating sense of anxiety of type 6 seems to resonate. However, all of the descriptions could be true, because we all have these sides to our personalities if that makes sense. 

Can anyone provide any pointers? I would read the entire thread, but it's quite long!


----------



## Kintsugi

Scelerat said:


> 1. He has a tendency towards confirmation bias/Forer effect/subjective validation. In which case his statements must be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> 2. He is openly disingenuous for his own entertainment quite habitually in multiple type me threads. In which case people cannot really trust his input, as he may just be amusing himself at their expense.


1. Fair point but this is Enneagram we are talking about; it's hardly a hard science. I fail to see how anyone's input in a discussion on their or another's type will ever be completely free of confirmation bias/Forer effect/subjective validation. Without the data needed to make this stuff more "objective" this argument could be applied to everyone on this sub-forum. The implication that one persons opinion is less objective (and, therefore less "valid") than another's because they didn't follow somebody else's subjective opinion written in an Enneagram book just doesn't cut it for me. It just becomes another appeal to authority. 

Which is also why, I might add, I take _all _of what others say on this subject with a pinch of salt. Including Ephs, but I'm sure he knows that. 

2. Okay, so the first part of this is just an unverified assertion and the second part is speculation. I don't really have any desire to get into a debate/discussion about my _subjective _opinion on Ephs behavior or input on this forum. Especially not in a public arena. So I won't comment further.


----------



## Scelerat

Kintsugi said:


> 1. Fair point but this is Enneagram we are talking about; it's hardly a hard science. I fail to see how anyone's input in a discussion on their or another's type will ever be completely free of confirmation bias/Forer effect/subjective validation. Without the data needed to make this stuff more "objective" this argument could be applied to everyone on this sub-forum. The implication that one persons opinion is less objective (and, therefore less "valid") than another's because they didn't follow somebody else's subjective opinion written in an Enneagram book just doesn't cut it for me. It just becomes another appeal to authority.
> 
> Which is also why, I might add, I take _all _of what others say on this subject with a pinch of salt. Including Ephs, but I'm sure he knows that.


In his case we do actually have data, his former mistypes combined with the strength of his assertions of being of those types along with his behavior conforming to those types. If someone dresses like a goth on day 1, a raver on day 2 and an angry gangster on day 3, you have a series of observations of that persons outfits. Then it's hardly a subjective opinion. 




> 2. Okay, so the first part of this is just an unverified assertion and the second part is speculation. I don't really have any desire to get into a debate/discussion about my _subjective _opinion on Ephs behavior or input on this forum. Especially not in a public arena. So I won't comment further.


Actually, we have of data. We have 8 "Type me threads" and we have his exact words to be earlier in this thread. Along with observable posts in other threads dealing with similar types of actions. I'm happy to quote slam you if you prefer that.


----------



## Bricolage

TakeAnUmbrella said:


> How are you meant to tell which one you are? I've done 4 free tests so far and have got a different answer each time. 9,8,7,6 respectively.


It's easy. You just average those four numbers and that's your type. :happy:


----------



## TakeAnUmbrella

Bricolage said:


> It's easy. You just average those four numbers and that's your type. :happy:


OK thanks. :happy:

This is probably going to sound super dense... but by averaging them out, are you saying that means falling at a 7w8 or 8w7 if the scores have been 6,7,8 & 9? Maths isn't my strong point.


----------



## Kintsugi

Scelerat said:


> In his case we do actually have data, his former mistypes combined with the strength of his assertions of being of those types along with his behavior conforming to those types. If someone dresses like a goth on day 1, a raver on day 2 and an angry gangster on day 3, you have a series of observations of that persons outfits. Then it's hardly a subjective opinion.


Okay, you have some data to make an argument, sure. But your interpretation of that data is still subjective. And that's my point, really. Also, just to be clear, the need for "data" I mentioned above was in relation to my issues with Enneagram as a whole, rather than the person in question. 



> Actually, we have of data. We have 8 "Type me threads" and we have his exact words to be earlier in this thread. Along with observable posts in other threads dealing with similar types of actions. I'm happy to quote slam you if you prefer that


"We"?

Again, it comes down to the subjective interpretation. I'm not denying there are inconsistencies; but it would be somewhat hypocritical of me to launch an attack on someone for committing similar mistakes that I too made when I first started learning about typology. I'm sure if anyone took the time to post-stalk my very early comments you will see that I quite clearly both perceived and presented myself as an innocent fluffy ENFP type; which I clearly do not identify with or act like now. In my case, the reason for this was due to a lack of self-awareness and also the desire to fit expectations and standards outside of myself that I thought others wanted me to be. Our self-concept has a lot to answer for and I, personally, disagree with the idea that our identities/personalities are these"static" things that must conform to some external subjective set of rules. If only humans were than fucking easy to understand, my life would be a _whole _lot easier, lol.

Oh look, I just completely illustrated my point by presenting my own rather subjective interpretation.

You know what my real issue is, I think. The whole "typing others" bullshit. It's entirely a personal opinion but I think it's pretty redundant considering how subjective this all is.


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> Again, it comes down to the subjective interpretation. I'm not denying there are inconsistencies; but it would be somewhat hypocritical of me to launch an attack on someone for committing similar mistakes that I too made when I first started learning about typology.


I'm so glad you brought this up.

I've had a complicated life. I've been traumatized and built up extra defenses to cope with it at different times in my life, and yet more defenses to tear off the armor that I needed to protect me, but which was weighing me down. None of this has to do with enneagram, but I didn't realize that until recently.

I'm emotionally complex, and outside of typology forums, easily regarded as a person who is extremely self-aware. My parents are both psychiatrists. They challenged me about the truth of who I really am, and why I do things, all my life. I write about these whats and whys in my diary, books, music, and other art since I was small.

My self-reporting varies. Why? Because I'm not static. Because I'm aware of my moods. Because I haven't been the same throughout my entire life. Because I grow, because I have revelations and once I have them, they are thorough. Because I have built defenses upon defenses upon defenses to cope with trauma and as I tear through them, I uncover more and more patterns. Still, the song lyrics that I wrote about my feelings, my depths - when I was 12, 15, 18, 22, 26, 30, whatever - these lyrics still describe my process and reveal who I am in a very consistent way, even many years apart. Same with my diary entries, my stories. Who I basically am, does evolve but does not _change_, and I am quite clearly aware of it, in all of its complexity. Give me freedom to express myself without numbers and labels, and I'll be quite honest and aware. 

The problem comes when attempting to boil this down to a number, or categories, and look at myself through a lens. This goes beyond numbers, into more simple issues. For instance. Do I have shame? Well what is shame? From what angle? If I photograph myself naked and covered in blood, and hang it up all over my college, is that shameless? Or is it an expression of shame? If I wear my moods on my sleeve, literally, by expressing myself through color and outfits - but don't talk about them - am I expressive, or am I introverted? If I spew out a lot of facts about myself in words, and reveal all my vulnerabilities in life and faults to someone I'm interested in, but can't bring myself to him how I feel about him, am I expressive or detached? Open, or closed?

Someone can quote me on 10 different posts and find things like: I have no shame, or I wear my shame on my sleeve, or it's shameful to do this or that. Yeah, I used to be convinced I had no shame because I wore it on my sleeve so that was "shameless," being that the shame was expressed, rather than hidden. But not all of it was expressed. I just internalized what people told me: "you're shameless!" and took that on as a personality trait that I touted to the world: I am different than everyone else because I have no shame. I didn't understand, fully, the implications of how it is visceral, how not telling someone my feelings is shame (even if I write novels about it), how hating my looks is shame (even if I wear flashy clothing to compensate and stand out), how putting a guy on a pedestal and feeling like I'm below him is shame (even if I write songs about it and sing them to an audience). Once I came to see that I had shame with my 3 mistype, I cried a lot. Because I had misused a word in expressing myself ("i have no shame!") due to being told this over and over as a result of my honest artistic expression. And I cried - why… not just because I have shame, but because I had failed to self-report accurately. Do you know how much that upsets me? My ideal self is absolutely, 100% honest.. and here I was.. spreading a lie about myself, unintentionally, stupidly, thick-headedly.

It hurts. It's not so easy, when people tell me my self-reporting was off.. because I know that I tried, I tried to be honest, and I see things differently now, but some of it is a matter of vocabulary, some is a matter of having built extra defenses, some is a matter of being emotionally complex to begin with. I was writing very detailed explicit stories about prostitutes when I was 12 years old (400 page novels to be precise) and writing in my diary about how everyone is a prostitute, selling themselves to the world.. and I don't want to be like this… and writing about my feelings, my shame, all the ways I fall short, all of my talents and assets, what I can become and what I don't want to become, all the dreams I have , all the ways I will conquer and live my dreams. My fears, my crushes, my deep insecurities. I explored them all, at a young age. It's all there, in writing. 

I am not un-self-aware and I'm very sick of the implication that because I can't boil my very complicated life down to two words : "All I am is envy and shame!" … people on perc will balk and say "Animal mistyped so many times, she doesn't know herself." In fact, those of us who know ourselves best, and especially those who have truly suffered and thus been forced to see even more of ourselves, have already seen all of the enneagram in ourselves. The enneagram is connected for a reason. All of the defenses are perfectly human. If we know ourselves really, really deeply, we have seen facets of all of these play out in our lives. We can boil any time in our lives down to each and every defense. This self-awareness, and awareness and openness to the many facets of one's own humanity, can actually make it harder to pin yourself down to one type.

@_Cosmic Orgasm_ understands me  where the self-reporting is concerned. (hugs) She will tell me frankly that my self-reporting has been varied, but she understands why. She helps to point out inconsistencies with her practically eidetic memory, and question why it happens, and these perceptions and the questions they dig up _help me grow_. This is one of many reasons I'm able to talk enneagram with her, and open up… she sees that I am self-aware, and very psychologically oriented, yet human, meaning, there are still holes in my self-awareness just like anyone else.. and that non-judgemental, honest approach helps me to figure out when my self-reporting is fluid and open to evolution, since I am constantly learning more and more and self-exploring, vs. when I am fooling myself or misperceiving the truth about myself.

Anyone who has struggled to survive, fought poverty or illness (physical or mental) or abuse… might be self-aware and yet have a very hard time pinning down their type because of all the defenses they have built up to cope with it. Their self-reporting might vary if they're the type of person who is very emotionally driven, whose moods can change their frame of mind. In my case some of it is Ne-Fi, too. It's just how my brain works. I see undercurrents, and the only constant in the undercurrents of the world, is change. And because I am truthful, and want to express myself genuinely, I aim for that, instead of aiming to fit a type-image. I will fit no mold. The mold will fit me. I am what I am, and if I express myself as genuinely as I can at any given time, the "type" will show itself. I will not let a number define me, and I will not be limited and shaped by people's perception of me because of that number and the implications they associate with it. The notion of basing my sense of self on a textbook definition of hokey psychology is laughable; compared to the real forces in life that I have been forced to stand up against, in order to survive and stay true to myself.

There is a big difference between having a deep psychology to dig through, a lifestyle of extremes and expression and exploration of those extremes, and a background in _real_ psychology, and using the numbers as an easier way to communicate about opening up and sorting yourself out, vs. _trying to prove a type label._

I have been accused of trying to prove a type label. "You talked about lust on the 8 forum!" Yeah, when I was on the 5 and 3 forum prior to the 8 forum, I also talked about lust.. which lead me to type at 8. While on the 8 forum, I stated outright that I am not sadistic and not that vengeful. I stated outright, on the 8 forum, that "I have more emotions than my whole family combined." And I asked other 8s how they felt about this. I never pretended to be something I'm not. I explored the defense and vice of lust more deeply, amongst others who were doing the same. Having explored it thoroughly, I determined that despite my lust and feeling of being rejected by the world and much else... 8 was not my type. I still talk about lust as it is still part of me, but I have already worked through that issue enough that it's not the first thing on my mind, as something I need to "sort out and face." The presumption that I went through this process to fake a type, is hilarious. At the risk of being accused of narcissism and conceit, I will ask the forum this: why would someone who has fans for my original music and multi-media projects… need to _fake a type_ to get approval on a forum? Are people fucking serious? _Fake a vice_ and a set of _ugly defenses_? For approval? Like it's cool to be lusty or it's cool to be envious? Lol. 

( If I wanted to be cool I would have just typed at 3. 3's are cool  )

Yes, I am more passionate and more interested in the issues that I associate (correctly or incorrectly) with a type, while examining myself through the lens of that type. If someone tells me I am not that type, and I argue my case adamantly, it's because either I am challenging their theory, or I am challenging their understanding of who I am. I want to hear their point, and the best way to get to the bottom of their point, is to argue my point, and see if their argument holds up against it. That is not the same as trying to prove a type.

It's one thing to ask me why I said X before and said Y now, or point out inconsistencies. These observations help me grow, help me question myself, force me to own up to whatever lies I told myself, or whatever ways I failed to express myself adequately. But those who have used this to slam me and try to call me "un-selfaware" or "fake," it's become quite obvious to me, that they are doing the very same thing they're accusing me of, and honing in on me because I make myself vulnerable on forum, in an honest effort to self-explore and grow. It's given me great relief to know that my best _is _good enough, and that these people are the problem, not me. (I should have learned this years ago, being that other people have ostracized me for my looks, my heritage, my disabilities, and other things throughout my life. But of course, I always wonder what I am doing wrong, before I see the light.) People trumping their type labels and dressing the part, whether they're correctly typed or not, playing it up as if this number and label defines them… it's weak, it's one-dimensional, it's shallow. You defined yourself by a fucking number and accused me of being un-selfaware because my personality has dimensions and my posts and self-awareness evolve tremendously over short periods of time. How..very..ironic. 

The people who are acting a certain way to fake a type, I feel sorry for them. Why do enneagram? @_LeoCat_ said something about personal growth and used the phrase "[don't] cuddle up to a number." I laughed so hard. It's not about "cuddling up to a number"… it's about overcoming the defenses you have built up, so you can be stronger, more whole, more fulfilled, or more aware.




> I'm sure if anyone took the time to post-stalk my very early comments you will see that I quite clearly both perceived and presented myself as an innocent fluffy ENFP type; which I clearly do not identify with or act like now. In my case, the reason for this was due to a lack of self-awareness and also the desire to fit expectations and standards outside of myself that I thought others wanted me to be. Our self-concept has a lot to answer for and I, personally, disagree with the idea that our identities/personalities are these"static" things that must conform to some external subjective set of rules. If only humans were than fucking easy to understand, my life would be a _whole _lot easier, lol.


Acting bubbly so you'll be seen as an ENFP, would not be self-exploration. However, as you pointed out, you both _perceived_ and _presented_ yourself that way. And it was a result of _lack of self awareness._ So in your case, with self-awareness you perceived and presented yourself differently. I would call that honest (if you are summing it up honestly), as you took the opportunity to change your perception of yourself and along with that, came a new presentation.

However, there are many people who define themselves by a set of letters and numbers. They waste people's time with multiple typing threads, and never grow, just put on a new mask. I'm not naming names or referring to anyone specific, but these people know who they are. Some people are correctly typed, and still wear the traits of their type as a mask, and just over-express everything that relates to their description, and use it as an excuse to be overtly obnoxious, touting their vice as an excuse to be un-empathetic and inhumane towards others. For example: "I'm an 8, I'm an asshole, deal with it." "I'm a 7, I think I'm better than you , so whatever." "I'm a 4, I'm soooo jealous of you, ugh stop talking." "I'm a 5 and too detached to care about you and your bullshit." Etc.

No, this is not what being a type is about. Just own up to the fact that you're a complete fucking asshole, and forget the type label, because not every person of that type label, uses their vice to objectify and mistreat others.


----------



## Kintsugi

Animal said:


> I'm so glad you brought this up.
> 
> I've had a complicated life. I've been traumatized and built up extra defenses to cope with it at different times in my life, and yet more defenses to tear off the armor that I needed to protect me, but which was weighing me down. _*None of this has to do with enneagram, but I didn't realize that until recently.*_


The bold is what I sometimes get frustrated with, with regards the "typing others" trend of forums such as this. I mean, there are just too many fucking variables to consider when it comes to understanding human behavior. My personal introspection journey, exploring my own trauma and suffering has brought me to a new level of self-awareness and understanding that, for the first time ever, has enabled me to _truly_ appreciate the complexity of not only my self, but of others. Before that, everything was just so black and white. And it's for this very reason why I see no real benefit at attempts of trying to "box" or "label" others. This is why I gave up on therapy; eventually having come to the conclusion that the only way I was ever going to make progress was through practicing self-therapy. Which is the same approach I take with Enneagram; I use it on myself and try to refrain as much as possible with regards applying it to others because, as highlighted above, we humans are subjective by nature and confirmation bias is a very human thing. So, for me, it is an _introspection _tool.



> My self-reporting varies. Why? Because I'm not static. Because I'm aware of my moods. Because I haven't been the same throughout my entire life. Because I grow, because I have revelations and once I have them, they are thorough. Because I have built defenses upon defenses upon defenses to cope with trauma and as I tear through them, I uncover more and more patterns. Still, the song lyrics that I wrote about my feelings, my depths - when I was 12, 15, 18, 22, 26, 30, whatever - these lyrics still describe my process and reveal who I am in a very consistent way, even many years apart. Same with my diary entries, my stories. Who I basically am, does evolve but does not _change, and I am quite clearly aware of it, in all of its complexity. Give me freedom to express myself without numbers and labels, and I'll be quite honest and aware._


Yeah, this pretty much is another example of what I was trying to get at in my earlier post with regards inconsistencies in self-reporting. I'm of the opinion that it's a very human thing to do.



> _*In fact, those of us who know ourselves best, and especially those who have truly suffered and thus been forced to see even more of ourselves, have already seen all of the enneagram in ourselves.*_ The enneagram is connected for a reason. All of the defenses are perfectly human. If we know ourselves really, really deeply, we have seen facets of all of these play out in our lives. We can boil any time in our lives down to each and every defense. This self-awareness, and awareness and openness to the many facets of one's own humanity, can actually make it harder to pin yourself down to one type.


I'm inclined to agree with the bold. Actually, this begs the question; why interpret someone changing/acting as several different types in such a negative way? Surely it could be argued that said person may just be at the point in their own process where they can _see _themselves in all of the 9 types? That they have reached a point where they are beginning to accept and understand their own fluidity. 

Just a thought.



> @_Cosmic Orgasm understands me  where the self-reporting is concerned. (hugs) She will tell me frankly that my self-reporting has been varied, but she understands why. She helps to point out inconsistencies with her practically eidetic memory, and question why it happens, and these perceptions and the questions they dig up help me grow. This is one of many reasons I'm able to talk enneagram with her, and open up… she sees that I am self-aware, and very psychologically oriented, yet human, meaning, there are still holes in my self-awareness just like anyone else.. and that non-judgemental, honest approach helps me to figure out when my self-reporting is fluid and open to evolution, since I am constantly learning more and more and self-exploring, vs. when I am fooling myself or misperceiving the truth about myself._


For me, personally, I make sure I take whatever anyone says about me with a pinch of salt. I think it's important to question the underlying or hidden assumptions/bias in any _subjective_ judgement made about you. Because, let's face it; we all project.



> Anyone who has struggled to survive, fought poverty or illness (physical or mental) or abuse… might be self-aware and yet have a very hard time pinning down their type because of all the defenses they have built up to cope with it. Their self-reporting might vary if they're the type of person who is very emotionally driven, whose moods can change their frame of mind.


Agreed. I'm of the opinion that most people are not that self-aware and actually, I think we are _all _traumatized and wounded children underneath it all. Which is why, as I have said before, I find it difficult connecting with people who are not committed to self-healing and processing unresolved emotions and trauma. I seek that kind of depth and acceptance of darkness in others. 



> There is a big difference between having a deep psychology to dig through, a lifestyle of extremes and expression and exploration of those extremes, and a background in _real psychology, and using the numbers as an easier way to communicate about opening up and sorting yourself out, vs. trying to prove a type label._


True. But I think we must be careful not to project our own self-typing experiences on others. We are all, after all, individuals. When I start feeling suspicious of another person on this forum I now tend to take a step back and examine my assumptions before I come to any solid conclusion. It's another good method of self-exploration, actually. As Jung said,_ "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."

_


> _Yes, I am more passionate and more interested in the issues that I associate (correctly or incorrectly) with a type, while examining myself through the lens of that type. If someone tells me I am not that type, and I argue my case adamantly, it's because either I am challenging their theory, or I am challenging their understanding of who I am. I want to hear their point, and the best way to get to the bottom of their point, is to argue my point, and see if their argument holds up against it. That is not the same as trying to prove a type__. _


If someone has an opinion of me that does not match my self-perception I tend to either take it or leave it. Experience has taught me alone that you cannot "win" an argument. Also, arguing does not get you very far. It just perpetuates conflict. If both parties are emotionally mature enough then arguments can be turned into meaningful, intimate, and constructive conversations. Which is, I might add, not what I saw happening on this thread. Which is why I said something. 



> However, there are many people who define themselves by a set of letters and numbers. They waste people's time with multiple typing threads, and never grow, just put on a new mask. I'm not naming names or referring to anyone specific, but these people know who they are. Some people are correctly typed, and still wear the traits of their type as a mask, and just over-express everything that relates to their description, and use it as an excuse to be overtly obnoxious, touting their vice as an excuse to be un-empathetic and inhumane towards others. For example: "I'm an 8, I'm an asshole, deal with it." "I'm a 7, I think I'm better than you , so whatever." "I'm a 4, I'm soooo jealous of you, ugh stop talking." "I'm a 5 and too detached to care about you and your bullshit." Etc.
> 
> _*No, this is not what being a type is about. Just own up to the fact that you're a complete fucking asshole, and forget the type label, because not every person of that type label, uses their vice to objectify and mistreat others.*_


My answer to this would be; just let them fucking get on with it then. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. Honestly, unless it directly impacts you, why do you even care so much about it? I think, it would be an interesting exercise to try and look at the underlying reasons _why _this causes so much outrage. But, you know, this is just my opinion. There seems to be a lot of assumptions in the bold part above. I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to invalidate your feelings on the matter; I just think it's important to question our own assumption of others.


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> My answer to this would be; just let them fucking get on with it then. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. Honestly, unless it directly impacts you, why do you even care so much about it? I think, it would be an interesting exercise to try and look at the underlying reasons _why _this causes so much outrage. But, you know, this is just my opinion. There seems to be a lot of assumptions in the bold part above. I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to invalidate your feelings on the matter; I just think it's important to question our own assumption of others.


I care because it leads to them publicly humiliating me, accusing me of things, and hurting my feelings. It actually hurts my feelings when people kick me while I'm vulnerable. It hurts when I open up, only to be told that I'm not enough of this or that, I'm not self aware, I'm not honest, I'm fake, etc, when I am trying to open up and communicate.

I have been on the forum two years. I have very rarely made a strong type case for someone. At most, tiny suggestions, with the clause of "I know that you know yourself better but just a thought…" etc. Rarely have I felt strongly compelled by anyone else. I'm extremely self-absorbed (not something I'm proud of) and thus someone needs to be right in my face, stepping on my toes, diminishing me and exploiting my vulnerability to make themselves feel powerful, etc… before I give any thought to them. In general, I'm not thinking about people that aren't right in front of me, unless I'm in love with them romantically, or they are a very close friend who is undergoing severe problems and I am worried (in which case I simply contact them directly and ask how they are). Rarely are my thoughts occupied with others. I don't give a rat's ass, until someone is using me for their own purposes, and has done enough of it, to get my attention.

Most negative attention is flattering. Most type 'accusations' with ill intent, or insults with ill intent, are flattering. Like wow, this person pays attention to me. I don't care about them beyond basic respect and empathy, or think about them unless they're right in front of me. But they took the time to accuse me and spy on me and twist themselves up about me. That's flattering. They might do it in an effort to diminish me, but the attention on me, in effect, only exalts me and diminishes them, because my life goes on, and I go right back to focusing on what's in front of me, or on myself, or on the person I desire romantically. I've been taking strides towards being less self-absorbed, and trying to be more emotionally available for friends beyond just the present moment. I'm extremely empathetic in the moment and responsive to others' moods and changes, and I do have basic human respect even for my "enemies," and can usually see their side too. But I'm self-absorbed in the sense that, their problems or issues don't deeply concern me when i'm not right in front of them, unless it's a mirror of my own problems. I'm trying to force myself to stop over-emphasizing who I am, how I feel , etc… in order to make more room in my daily thought for those I truly care for (beyond those I desire romantically). I've been blessed with great friends who think of me often when I'm not there, who reach out when I'm sick, who ask me if I'm okay. I want to be a better and better and better friend, always improve.


But when someone's idiocy is persistent enough to actually hurt my feelings, and make me deeply upset… yes, it comes to my fucking attention. People hurting my friends, also comes to my attention. 

Opening up and being vulnerable on a forum takes courage and when people choose that moment to bring someone down, it says a lot about them, not about the person who opened up. However, it is the person who opened up, who is vulnerable, who gets hurt in the immediate moment. Even if karma eventually comes to show that person that they did nothing wrong, and the other person was the weak one - in the moment, it hurts. It discourages true vulnerability and growth. It makes for a negative, judgemental, shallow fake forum environment.

I refuse to contribute to that. I'll continue being myself, come hell or high water. They can say what they like.
That doesnt take away from how much it hurts though, when people prey on someone who is vulnerable and open like dogs.

It is often those who have something to prove, something to fear, etc… who end up doing this. Perhaps they are threatened by someone strong, someone who sees through them or makes them feel small in comparison , and want to bring them down a notch? Whatever the reason, I'm mostly flattered and oblivious, but like anyone else I have a breaking point. Whether it's me, a friend, or an innocent stranger online that they are preying on, this jolts every last inch of my body and makes Animal's quills spiky. If I see the same person doing this over and over, tiggy claws and fangs. It's a side of humanity that I prefer to avoid and take no part in, but if they are stupid enough to get in my way and use me for their purposes, well I am sorry to say, I have feelings, and I am not above being sad when people hurt me (or my friends), and that can lead to rage.


----------



## Kintsugi

Whoa, fuck me. You type fast! LOL



Animal said:


> I care because it leads to them publicly humiliating me, accusing me of things, and hurting my feelings. It actually hurts my feelings when people kick me while I'm vulnerable. It hurts when I open up, only to be told that I'm not enough of this or that, I'm not self aware, I'm not honest, I'm fake, etc, when I am trying to open up and communicate.


Okay, let me just come out and ask this straight: *WHO* are you talking about, exactly? I'm not sure if this is just some crazy Ne thing but my Se is pretty confused right about now. Need some concrete information.  

Also, just so this doesn't lead to any misunderstandings because incorrect assumptions could be drawn from this. I think it's better to just address this shit head on. 



> I have been on the forum three years. I have very rarely made a strong type case for someone. At most, tiny suggestions, with the clause of "I know that you know yourself better but just a thought…" etc. _*Rarely have I felt strongly compelled by anyone else.*_.


Again, referring to the bold, who are you talking about? 



> But when someone's idiocy is persistent enough to actually hurt my feelings, and make me deeply upset… yes, it comes to my fucking attention. People hurting my friends, also comes to my attention.


Okay, we might be getting somewhere now? Still unclear as to who this is about though..?



> Opening up and being vulnerable on a forum takes courage and when people choose that moment to bring someone down, it says a lot about them, not about the person who opened up. However, it is the person who opened up, who is vulnerable, who gets hurt in the immediate moment. Even if karma eventually comes to show that person that they did nothing wrong, and the other person was the weak one - in the moment, it hurts. It discourages true vulnerability and growth. It makes for a negative, judgmental, shallow fake forum environment.
> 
> I refuse to contribute to that. I'll continue being myself, come hell or high water. They can say what they like.
> That doesnt take away from how much it hurts though, when people prey on someone who is vulnerable and open like dogs.


Not to want to invalidate you but this is all very emotionally driven. I think it's important to separate the subjective (emotions) from the objective (facts). Also, emotions are ephemeral.



> It is often those who have something to prove, something to fear, etc… who end up doing this. Perhaps they are threatened by someone strong, someone who sees through them or makes them feel small in comparison , and want to bring them down a notch? Whatever the reason, I'm mostly flattered and oblivious, but like anyone else I have a breaking point. Whether it's me, a friend, or an innocent stranger online that they are preying on, this jolts every last inch of my body and makes Animal's quills spiky. If I see the same person doing this over and over, tiggy claws and fangs. It's a side of humanity that I prefer to avoid and take no part in, but if they are stupid enough to get in my way and use me for their purposes, well I am sorry to say, I have feelings, and I am not above being sad when people hurt me (or my friends), and that can lead to rage.


That's fair enough. I'm the same.


----------



## Animal

@Kintsugi
I don't do public gossip. If anyone thinks it's them I'm referring to, they can PM me. I won't gossip about third parties over PM either, but I will at least say, "It's not you" or "it is you" directly.

Anyway, you can chalk it up to Ne if you'd like, because I'm venting about a _trend_ rather than one specific thing, anyway.
Sorry to disappoint.


----------



## Kintsugi

Animal said:


> @_Kintsugi_
> I don't do public gossip. If anyone thinks it's them I'm referring to, they can PM me. I won't gossip about third parties over PM either, but I will at least say, "It's not you" or "it is you" directly.
> 
> Anyway, you can chalk it up to Ne if you'd like, because I'm venting about a _trend_ rather than one specific thing, anyway.
> Sorry to disappoint.


Fair enough. It wasn't clear so I thought I'd ask.

Not sure why I'd be disappointed?


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> Fair enough. It wasn't clear so I thought I'd ask.
> 
> Not sure why I'd be disappointed?


Because I'm lacking in the dramatastic department?


----------



## Kintsugi

Animal said:


> Because I'm lacking in the dramatastic department?


Nope. This is, again, an assumption. You're free to interpret it that way but, I can assure you, I was just trying to make sense of something that wasn't clear to me.


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> Nope. This is, again, an assumption. You're free to interpret it that way but, I can assure you, I was just trying to make sense of something that wasn't clear to me.


Notice the question mark and the wink face?
I don't care enough about you or know you well enough to start projecting assumptions on to you. You are a complete stranger. 
Ironically, the only assumption made here is that my statement was an assumption. From my angle, it _clearly_ wasnt.


----------



## Kintsugi

Animal said:


> Notice the question mark and the wink face?
> I don't care enough about you or know you well enough to start projecting assumptions on to you. You are a complete stranger.
> Ironically, the only assumption made here is that my statement was an assumption. From my angle, it _clearly_ wasnt.


Well then, it was a misunderstanding. We are on the internet and are unable to read each others facial expressions. It happens.

And on that note, I think here is a good place to end this.


----------



## drmiller100

Kintsugi said:


> T
> 
> When I start feeling suspicious of another person on this forum I now tend to take a step back and examine my assumptions before I come to any solid conclusion. It's another good method of self-exploration, actually. .


This is a very powerful statement In my opinion. 

When someone attacks, my immediate response is to puff up back, and I try to do it with overwhelming power. And I can "win" that way, and it is usually pretty easy.

But the "win" is not really a win. It can cost friendships of decent people on the periphery. It can cause long standing energy black holes for me where I pour energy in, and get nothing useful out.

If I stop to listen. And I stop to question the individuals involves, and LISTEN to the individuals involved, often there was a miscommunication, or the person attacking is having a pretty shitty time in their life, and they are taking it out on me. But it is not really about me. It is really about them hiding from real life problems, or numbing themselves, or hiding from something.

so, back to the basics. I hit on examine assumptions. I hit on It is NOT about me. And intrinsic to it all is I try to be impeccable with my word, and help others.

And my best is sometimes to destroy, but my best sometimes is to build bridges.


----------



## Aha

-Alpha- said:


> Happy to be of service.
> 
> TYPE 3 ALL DAY, SON!!!!
> 
> Since I'm in this thread, anyone that wants to question my type and talk about, you know, me can do so.
> 
> I'll show you how shallow and attention seeking I am!


Following a general tendencies and "logic" of this forum: No one will type himself E3 unless he is an E3.


----------



## Kintsugi

Someone type me, yo!

But, remember kids... 










Sorry, couldn't resist. Now I'm seriously going to fuck off out of here.


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> The bold is what I sometimes get frustrated with, with regards the "typing others" trend of forums such as this. I mean, there are just too many fucking variables to consider when it comes to understanding human behavior. My personal introspection journey, exploring my own trauma and suffering has brought me to a new level of self-awareness and understanding that, for the first time ever, has enabled me to _truly_ appreciate the complexity of not only my self, but of others. Before that, everything was just so black and white. And it's for this very reason why I see no real benefit at attempts of trying to "box" or "label" others. This is why I gave up on therapy; eventually having come to the conclusion that the only way I was ever going to make progress was through practicing self-therapy. Which is the same approach I take with Enneagram; I use it on myself and try to refrain as much as possible with regards applying it to others because, as highlighted above, we humans are subjective by nature and confirmation bias is a very human thing. So, for me, it is an _introspection _tool.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, this pretty much is another example of what I was trying to get at in my earlier post with regards inconsistencies in self-reporting. I'm of the opinion that it's a very human thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with the bold. Actually, this begs the question; why interpret someone changing/acting as several different types in such a negative way? Surely it could be argued that said person may just be at the point in their own process where they can _see _themselves in all of the 9 types? That they have reached a point where they are beginning to accept and understand their own fluidity.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, personally, I make sure I take whatever anyone says about me with a pinch of salt. I think it's important to question the underlying or hidden assumptions/bias in any _subjective_ judgement made about you. Because, let's face it; we all project.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. I'm of the opinion that most people are not that self-aware and actually, I think we are _all _traumatized and wounded children underneath it all. Which is why, as I have said before, I find it difficult connecting with people who are not committed to self-healing and processing unresolved emotions and trauma. I seek that kind of depth and acceptance of darkness in others.
> 
> 
> 
> True. But I think we must be careful not to project our own self-typing experiences on others. We are all, after all, individuals. When I start feeling suspicious of another person on this forum I now tend to take a step back and examine my assumptions before I come to any solid conclusion. It's another good method of self-exploration, actually. As Jung said,_ "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."
> 
> _
> 
> If someone has an opinion of me that does not match my self-perception I tend to either take it or leave it. Experience has taught me alone that you cannot "win" an argument. Also, arguing does not get you very far. It just perpetuates conflict. If both parties are emotionally mature enough then arguments can be turned into meaningful, intimate, and constructive conversations. Which is, I might add, not what I saw happening on this thread. Which is why I said something.
> 
> 
> 
> My answer to this would be; just let them fucking get on with it then. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. Honestly, unless it directly impacts you, why do you even care so much about it? I think, it would be an interesting exercise to try and look at the underlying reasons _why _this causes so much outrage. But, you know, this is just my opinion. There seems to be a lot of assumptions in the bold part above. I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to invalidate your feelings on the matter; I just think it's important to question our own assumption of others.


You're saying you're not saying, but said it anyway. I mean, I'm not saying this is passive aggression, but it just looks that way?

You say you get frustrated with people "typing others" trend of forums, and don't see the benefit of labelling others. Can you explain why you make an exception for labelling people who "witch hunt" and how you came to this solid conclusion?

I understand there is subjectivity. If an assumption is based on a hunch, or even awareness of a gut feeling, you need to know whether this is based on conditioning of (core) fears and desires, and possibly rooted in trauma, (e.g. the habitual predisposition to take the other's competence with a grain of salt, or to speculate on true underlying motivations)...or is the gut feeling your inner guidance to virtue, strength and wisdom? I'd say it would require some inner work to begin with, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to balance subjectivity with objectivity, rather than reject any data that doesn't confirm the hunches.

You grabbed this opportunity to teach people virtue and reason? But I cannot say you can lead by example, when you don't practice what you preach. But it's okay. I guess it just felt wrong, and I'm not gonna speculate on your motivations.


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> You're saying you're not saying, but said it anyway. I mean, I'm not saying this is passive aggression, but maybe it just looks that way?
> 
> You say you get frustrated with people "typing others" trend of forums, and don't see the benefit of labelling others. Can you explain why you make an exception for labelling people who "witch hunt" and how you came to this solid conclusion?


Feel free to nit-pick all you want. The discussion is over, as far as I'm concerned. Sorry, I'm just bored of this already and I don't see me gaining anything from continuing this with you or anyone else. 



> I understand there is subjectivity. If an assumption is based on a hunch, or even awareness of a gut feeling, you need to know whether this is based on conditioning of (core) fears and desires, and possibly rooted in trauma, (e.g. the habitual predisposition to take the other's competence with a grain of salt, or to speculate on true underlying motivations)...or is the gut feeling your inner guidance to virtue, strength and wisdom? I'd say it would require some inner work to begin with, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to balance subjectivity with objectivity.


I'm all for balancing subjectivity with objectivity. Not disagreeing with you here. 



> You grabbed this opportunity to teach people virtue and reason? But I cannot say you lead by example, when you don't practice what you preach. But it's okay. I guess it just felt wrong, and I'm not gonna speculate on your motivations.


This is another _opinion._ I don't really feel I have any need to justify myself to a stranger on the internet.


----------



## HellCat

Heres another opinion, Eight posturing, type posturing in general, does them no good other than give people a number to hug. Hell with personal growth, lets just say I am X so I can never be Z. Its a neat little crutch.

The only people who should be considered worth a damn in typing are the ones who fearlessly share their mistype stories and are open about their stories in hopes to assist others. All I have seen from the "self proclaimed set up authorities of Perc's typing ability being questioned here" and the ones crying wolf or "witch hunt" ed. note: (snort) have been a lot of mental masturbation over the last year and a half, umbrage, prickly reactions with no attempts to reach a compromise or understanding. No visible proof they are truly searching themselves beyond trolling and wanting attention.

I mean even teeter totter with his Magnum Opus, reached a conclusion, searched himself deeply and fought to gain some kind of understanding of his inner workings. 


All the people who are pointing out the inconsistencies, delve into themselves, share openly to educate others and are fairly humble and good natured about it, at first at least  

Not to mention they backed up their assertion with facts. 

All the drama stirring in an intellectual debate like this, belongs in preschool.


----------



## Bricolage

Kintsugi said:


>


That's probably not an asset to say that you never accommodate new data. 



> I have been accused of a habit of changing my opinions. I am not myself in any degree ashamed of having changed my opinions. What physicist who was already active in 1900 would dream of boasting that his opinions had not changed during the last half century? - Bertrand Russell


----------



## Bricolage

Aha said:


> Following a general tendencies and "logic" of this forum: No one will type himself E3 unless he is an E3.


This particular forum definitely earns those dubious quotation marks.


----------



## mimesis

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Anyone with half a brain will read that shit and acknowledge it is patently NOT type 8, and then go your own way instead of bleating on and on about some 'witch hunt'. It's incredibly lame. MORE pages have been wasted by this rubbish than were spent stating the person was not an 8. So that makes everyone whimpering about this a blaring hypocrite derailing a thread for pages on end and then crying wolf. If the 'big bad 8' has decided to 'move on' after the "i am so aggressive and assertive" flimsy ass joke of a parting shot, his lil buddies and the other tryhards should take a hint and shut up. How about that? :3
> 
> As for learning, you are on a forum not in an Enneagram workshop you've paid for. :kitteh: You are not entitled to shit, so if a thread bothers you, stop clicking on it or report the posts you deem 'offensive', and then move the fuck on instead of making a petty ass fuss that does nothing to steer things in the 'right' direction. Counter-productive much?
> 
> Besides see, crying "witch hunt" on this thread and the unwarranted lulzy victimization of people isn't going to change shit. No 'rules' were broken, and things will proceed as they have.


For the record, and in his defense, I don't recall him either victimizing himself, or use that term. 

That was someone else typed INTJ, @Blue Flare , who afterwards um...personally emascul8ed an attacker, @Aha , ( questioned instinctual stack ) to 7


----------



## Chesire Tower

mimesis said:


> emascul8ed


I am looking forward to the newly created trope. :3


----------



## Animal

mimesis said:


> emascul8ed


----------



## Bricolage

Animal said:


> :laughing:


Acid flashback. Holy shit.


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> Feel free to nit-pick all you want. The discussion is over, as far as I'm concerned. Sorry, I'm just bored of this already and I don't see me gaining anything from continuing this with you or anyone else.
> 
> I'm all for balancing subjectivity with objectivity. Not disagreeing with you here.
> 
> This is another _opinion._ I don't really feel I have any need to justify myself to a stranger on the internet.


Yes, very good, it's an opinion! 

So tell me, how does 3 or 4 people who appear to share and express the same opinion makes a witch hunt, but 2 people responding to this by shaming this behavior as "low" doesn't?


----------



## Animal

drmiller100 said:


> The vehemence for attacking those who claim to be 8's is the most fascinating to me.
> 
> If someone thinks they are an 8, and are not, and someone attacks them, So what?
> 
> If someone thinks they are an 8, and are, and someone attacks them, maybe the 8 will roll over, throw his/her legs up in the air, and kiss the ass of whoever attacked them.
> 
> Or maybe not. Maybe the 8 is not as sneaky and just flat fucking explodes back at the attacker. Would that be consistent with an 8's predicted behavior?
> 
> 
> Reminds me of the old test where you see which witch floats.
> 
> ]


I know two 8s irl.

I discussed enneagram with the 8w9. He was nodding and nodding at the descriptions til we got to the darker side of 8 and then he said "let's do something else, this is making me uncomfortable." There's no way he'd join a forum and talk about it publicly. If he did for some reason, and someone said he wasn't an 8, his response would be :happy: or *shrug* and then if she's sexy he'd flirt and if not he'd just go on his merry way. If anyone attacked him on forum his response would be a classier version of "dafuq lol." To be clear, the only reason in hell that I could see him joining a forum is to flirt with women.

The 8w7 couldn't be assed with enneagram or even a facebook or internet presence, as he's out building, being aggressive in business, on dangerous adventures to do just a little more for the people he loves, etc. If the world froze over and he decided to join a forum (perhaps he was in jail and they had internet and he had nothing better to do? although I think he'd be more likely to join a weapons forum, but lets say hypothetically, he had a wife or friend on this forum) and somehow typed himself at 8.. and someone challenged his typing, he'd ignore it, read half of it and get distracted.. basically it would barely register if it was just about his type. If the post was really insulting to him personally, he'd ignore it or answer short and sweet "get a life man"


7s I know irl are much more fiery online, quicker with words, and get pleasure out of toying with people and making fun, slicker, a little sadistic online, can get their nightly entertainment by ripping down idiots online and collecting haters and thinking "damn I'm clever." They can get angry about accusations and idiocy and revel in that anger, or they can laugh their asses off on the side while tearing a bitch down. They are flattered by all attention including insults, unless they are _deeply_ violated.


6's (at least those I know) _actually_ get angry, quite thoroughly sometimes, though there can also be amusement or scoffing mixed in.


----------



## Aha

mimesis said:


> That was someone else typed INTJ, @_Blue Flare_ , who afterwards um...personally emascul8ed an attacker, @_Aha_ , ( questioned instinctual stack ) to 7












Could anyone explain this sentence to me? I think my english just gave up.

edit: lol, nvm :laughing:


----------



## drmiller100

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> First of all, miller, you haven't seen shit. As someone who has been here nearly 5 years and has had extremely sensitive details of abuse and trauma ripped apart and pissed on a typing thread all because I typed at 8 when I had joined along with other gross violations of confidentiality that I won't get into in public all over an 8 typing,


That was not me.


----------



## drmiller100

Animal said:


> I know two 8s irl.


Thank you Animal. I could see that, and if you notice there are VERY few 8's who actually do stick around the 8 forum. 

Were the 8's you know personally primarily Intutives or Sensors? In other words, along the lines of an ESTP or an ENTP?


----------



## Sina

drmiller100 said:


> That was not me.


lolwut didn't say so. :3 you weren't on the forum back then.
\Anyway

and @_mimesis_
lmfao @ "emascula8e"


----------



## Animal

drmiller100 said:


> Thank you Animal. I could see that, and if you notice there are VERY few 8's who actually do stick around the 8 forum.
> 
> Were the 8's you know personally primarily Intutives or Sensors? In other words, along the lines of an ESTP or an ENTP?


I actually know three total, but one has other stuff going on and is not a good comparison re: enneagram.

To be very clear, I don't type people with any kind of certainty unless I know them well for years IRL. When I mention someone is "Type X" at this point … it's someone I'm friends with or has been in my circle for many years. So when I say I know 3 8s..well.. it's actually more 8s than some other numbers. For instance I only know one 2, irl, well enough to type them.

In case you wondered what I meant by "know" hehe.

To the best of my knowledge (keeping in mind I'm better at enneagram), the 8w9 is an ESTP and the 8w7 is an ESFP.


My father is a 7w8-8w7-?? (3w4/4w3) ENTP , so in my mind, he makes for a good comparison vs. core 8s, since he has a lot of 8 influence, but is definitely a 7.


----------



## drmiller100

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> lolwut didn't say so. :3 you weren't even on the forum back then.
> 
> e"


so don't blame me for doing that. I'm sorry someone else did that to you. It was a shitty thing to do, and it seems like the hurt is still there. 

And I bet what you went through is a hell of a lot worse than what I and a few others have gone through recently, but it does sound like what I am going through is similar to what you went through.

I have the FUCKING RIGHT to type myself at anything I fucking want, just like you do. And I have the privilege to create any amount of stupid threads I want to about pretty much any topic I want to which follows the forum rules.

If it takes me a while to figure my enneagram out, so be it.

If you truly want to help shorten my journey then engage with me, learn about me, and treat me with respect. If you do not wish to help me, that is of course fine.


----------



## drmiller100

Animal said:


> To the best of my knowledge (keeping in mind I'm better at enneagram), the 8w9 is an ESTP and the 8w7 is an ESFP.
> 
> 
> My father is a 7w8-8w7-?? (3w4/4w3) ENTP , so in my mind, he makes for a good comparison vs. core 8s, since he has a lot of 8 influence, but is definitely a 7.


thank you. 

To me, I can totally see an Se leading 8 acting exactly as you describe. Generally, unless they own the site (smiles) they have often have better things to do than wander around internet forums examining core fears of themselves and others.

And I can see an ENTJ not spending tons of time on the same forum. How will the forum help them with world domination? (smiles).

But there can be intuitive 8's who are perhaps emotionally or socially beaten up trying to figure out what they are and why they are. And I suggest some of those might hang out for a while as they find their center, but probably not long term.


----------



## Arya

drmiller100 said:


> Thank you. That was very well stated. (smiles).
> 
> I cheated (grins). 2,3,4,5 are from the 4 Agreements. they help me keep centered.
> 
> I do believe I have a LOT of 5 in me, and I am very comfortable in the 5 realm. I also believe I have some 2 in me.
> 
> When healthy and happy, I am a true extrovert, and "the life of the party." I ride avalanches, race cars, hunt dangerous game, have a fairly, ummmm, dynamic sex life, and hunt predators. I love a good fight, and as evidenced by me here recently, am willing to jump into conflict.
> 
> Here is an example I take as being an 8, but perhaps you might have insight if it applies to a 5. I used to race cars up mountains. Think Pike's Peak, but on a local scale. Last Saturday I went to watch one fo the local races. 10 years ago I ran the event for everyone a few years during a transition period, and turned it over to someone who loved operations.
> 
> Anyway, I got there about 3:00pm, and was watching. They had been running all day, and I was wearing flip flops and shorts. 8 cars went up, and the ninth sailed off the mountain and slid 150 feet off the mountain. It was 3/8 of a mile away, and I was first on scene, and helped the driver climb out, and sat on him until paramedics showed up. Then I figured out how to get the driver off the mountain without carrying him back up the hill.
> My point is there were 75 people watching at the same corner I was, and there were 3 corner workers 100 feet down the road from where he went off, and I was the first there. Everyone else was standing around with their mouths open waiting. some of that is I was captain of Search and Rescue for a few years and understand the goals in situations like that (eliminate fire danger, stop blood loss, ensure air flow to driver, minimize driver movement until paramedics arrive).
> 
> But I think the whole frigging situation is an 8. Not just willing, but EAGER and DEMANDING to take over a dangerous situation, impose control, and keep others from being hurt.
> 
> The guy was fine - mild concussion and 3 stitches where he cut his hand. The car is rough.
> 
> 2 hours later the hill was running again.


Could technically just as easily be SX six. Nothing in there stands out as necessarily eight in my mind.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Aha said:


> Piece of cake (from you)
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 686kb lossless
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 346kb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =293kb. Why do you need under 293?


Those are the maximum parameters for a sigpic: 450 pixels width X 250 pixels height and cannot be over 293 KB.


Thanks, I am going to check it out now. *fingers crossed* =)


ETA: My God, you are a freaking genius or something!



* *















How do you do that? I want to learn how to make gifs like that.

::awestruck:: ^_^


----------



## HighClassSavage

drmiller100 said:


> Thank you. That was very well stated. (smiles).
> 
> I cheated (grins). 2,3,4,5 are from the 4 Agreements. they help me keep centered.
> 
> I do believe I have a LOT of 5 in me, and I am very comfortable in the 5 realm. I also believe I have some 2 in me.
> 
> When healthy and happy, I am a true extrovert, and "the life of the party." I ride avalanches, race cars, hunt dangerous game, have a fairly, ummmm, dynamic sex life, and hunt predators. I love a good fight, and as evidenced by me here recently, am willing to jump into conflict.
> 
> Here is an example I take as being an 8, but perhaps you might have insight if it applies to a 5. I used to race cars up mountains. Think Pike's Peak, but on a local scale. Last Saturday I went to watch one fo the local races. 10 years ago I ran the event for everyone a few years during a transition period, and turned it over to someone who loved operations.
> 
> Anyway, I got there about 3:00pm, and was watching. They had been running all day, and I was wearing flip flops and shorts. 8 cars went up, and the ninth sailed off the mountain and slid 150 feet off the mountain. It was 3/8 of a mile away, and I was first on scene, and helped the driver climb out, and sat on him until paramedics showed up. Then I figured out how to get the driver off the mountain without carrying him back up the hill.
> My point is there were 75 people watching at the same corner I was, and there were 3 corner workers 100 feet down the road from where he went off, and I was the first there. Everyone else was standing around with their mouths open waiting. some of that is I was captain of Search and Rescue for a few years and understand the goals in situations like that (eliminate fire danger, stop blood loss, ensure air flow to driver, minimize driver movement until paramedics arrive).
> 
> But I think the whole frigging situation is an 8. Not just willing, but EAGER and DEMANDING to take over a dangerous situation, impose control, and keep others from being hurt.
> 
> The guy was fine - mild concussion and 3 stitches where he cut his hand. The car is rough.
> 
> 2 hours later the hill was running again.


Ay Doc, I got a little somethin' for ya, some of that new shit out on the market. They call it Val-id-ation (RX). It's guaranteed to get all of your needs met. Tired of feeling alone on this world, as if no one gives a fuck about you and everyone is out to get you? No worries my *****! All you need is some of that Val-id-ation! Now, now, normally I only give out samples of this shit because ****** be getting addicted and all that bullshit, but ay, today I'm feeling generous. So tell ya what Doc, I'ma hook you up with a lifetime supply!!! Free of charge! All I ask is that you please limit yourself to one a day. It's gonna be hard, I know, but I've seen one too many a ***** get hooked on this shit, and I'ma tell ya, that shit ain't pretty. 

You can thank me later Doc!


----------



## Aha

@_Animal_ @_drmiller100_

As for the topic of why 8s would wonder here

I got into mbti when I searched for a presentation topic for my discussion club. I was fascinated by idea that I can learn to type people instantly and know how and what to push to get my way flawlessly. Also to type all my friends because it is interesting. And yeah, mbti explained why people do not see the world the same.

I never had any problems with "who I am" or discovering myself. I am perfectly in touch with what, who and why I am. I continue here not because I search for something inside but because I discovered that people here are more interesting than those I meet every day in real life. That many here share my topics of interest, which I lack in people IRL. Also I want this freaking pinky nickname upon 6501posts  

As for the internet overall: I deleted every social network account long ago because of distraction they created. So, you can only contact me via perc, skype (just registered) and goodreads (my favorite). 
As for the forums. I hosted two sites with vbulletin forums back in my school years (one was about star wars, other about politics) but I did not have a lot of people...


IRL you have 25% intuitives. Forum 75% intuitives. Intuitives are about 10-20% of the world 8 population. 90% of 8s are extroverts. Extroverts do not wonder to forums as much as introverts. So you have got an underrepresentation here.


----------



## Aha

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> Those are the maximum parameters for a sigpic: 450 pixels width X 250 pixels height and cannot be over 293 KB.
> 
> 
> Thanks, I am going to check it out now. *fingers crossed* =)


I did use 3mb pic of a moving Galaxy. Everything was fine.

edit: just post it with a link [img ] [/ img]


----------



## Doll

drmiller100 said:


> so, in English, crush and crash are different things.
> Crash is when a car goes off a mountain.
> Crush is when your lust does.


 @Aha, you are definitely a crash, but an interesting one.


----------



## Sina

Mmm...I love @_Snowflake Whisperer_'s sig gif. Awesome stuff @_Aha_. :3 You also happen to be a pretty fun crash. This may call for a poetry cake full of delectable words you can munch on. :kitteh:


----------



## Doll

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Mmm...I love @_Snowflake Whisperer_'s sig gif.


I love her sig quote. Oscar Wilde, oh my heart.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Mmm...I love @_Snowflake Whisperer_'s sig gif. Awesome stuff @_Aha_. :3 You also happen to be a pretty fun crash. This may call for a poetry cake full of delectable words you can much on. :kitteh:


Xmas came in June this year. :3


----------



## Chesire Tower

Aha said:


> I did use 3mb pic of a moving Galaxy. Everything was fine.
> 
> edit: just post it with a link [img ] [/ img]


I just copied the URL straight. Can you show me that pic.

Sorry everyone for the derails . . .

but we are talking about goddamn art; so I hope you all understand. :3


----------



## Aha

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> I just copied the URL straight. Can you show me that pic.
> 
> Sorry everyone for the derails . . .
> 
> but we are talking about goddamn art; so I hope you all understand. :3


Derail nooooo

* *


























Gifs ARE ART :crazy:


----------



## MNiS

Hmm. When I think of art, this is what I think of:










Cubism.


----------



## drmiller100

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> I
> I analyze everything to death but I don't crave intense emotions and although I am deathly terrified of merging; I am highly self-oriented. I am however only vigilant when I have to go somewhere and need to make sure that I haven't forgotten something important. I am also only anxious when I have to either force myself to do something or be somewhere I don't want to or anytime I risk possible engulfment with the outside world. The reason I related to your post was due to a similarity in values; perhaps, you are a So/Sx like me then?


I very much appreciate your gentle approach, and respect it.

I am always vigilant. Meeting new people is a great experience, and I love teaching new classes I have never taught before to students I have never met. I have been told I have big personal energy, and people do indeed notice when I walk into a room.

Right now it is summer break, and the campus director has decreed all professors need to spend seat time, on their asses, at their desks, during summer break, and is counting hours. So, I have time to post to sites like this! The good news is summer break is only 4 weeks long, and I've figured out how to spend time cold calling companies to place students with.

I think I am Sx/So. 

When I re read that post, and my values, I can see where it is pretty 5ish. And I think I am pretty 5ish when I am on this site - I retreat here for numbing to ignore some of my unsolvable life issues.

Thank you for your thoughts and comments.


----------



## Animal

Beauty


----------



## Doll

Art!


* *


----------



## drmiller100

Aha said:


> @_Animal_ @_drmiller100_
> 
> As for the topic of why 8s would wonder here
> 
> 
> IRL you have 25% intuitives. Forum 75% intuitives. Intuitives are about 10-20% of the world 8 population. 90% of 8s are extroverts. Extroverts do not wonder to forums as much as introverts. So you have got an underrepresentation here.


All of that I relate to also. 

A couple of other things you did not mention. Understanding human behaviors and relationships of people is of great interest to me, and this site has helped me learn a lot.

The average intelligence on this site is spectacularly high, and I love discussing ISSUES with smart people. And to define "intelligence", I mean raw cerebral horsepower which can take MANY different forms. 

I've made a few "friends" here.


----------



## drmiller100

Noble Demon said:


> Ay Doc, I got a little somethin' for ya, some of that new shit out on the market. They call it Val-id-ation (RX). It's guaranteed to get all of your needs met. Tired of feeling alone on this world, as if no one gives a fuck about you and everyone is out to get you?
> 
> You can thank me later Doc!


No, I'll thank you now.

Thank You. And thank you Cosmic for supporting his offer.

I do have a need and desire for validation. I do want to be heard. I do dream of someone listening to me, and understanding me, and KNOWING me.

I can work on that, and tear down a few walls, and still not be vulnerable and weak.


----------



## MNiS

The Philosopher:










I've always liked this painting for it's absolute serenity.


----------



## tantomoriremotutti

Is this a thread to understand if you were mistyped?


----------



## AST

tantomoriremotutti said:


> Is this a thread to understand if you were mistyped?


Right now, it's the subject of the Great Lord Aha and his army of gifs.

Pay fealty to the Great Lord, peassant!


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> Yeah, and make it amusing too. I've got thick skin, do your worst.
> 
> I showed my SO that gif and he cracked up. The most amusing part is that *I kind of resemble the dog too, in a weird way*. It also captured that existential doubt quite nicely.


:laughing:


* *




@_Aha_ was kind enough to make my avatar out of a gif I loved.
It captures my feelings about the forum right now.. perfectly.
Not to mention, tiger is my spirit animal.


----------



## Kintsugi

Animal said:


> :laughing:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @_Aha_ was kind enough to make my avatar out of a gif I loved.
> It captures my feelings about the forum right now.. perfectly.
> Not to mention, tiger is my spirit animal.


Hmm. I interpret it as a paranoid eye? Is that right?

No fucking idea. This stuff is just _so_ SUBJECTIVE. Lol. 

Ah, fuck me. I need to go to bed.


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> Hmm. I interpret it as a paranoid eye? Is that right?
> 
> No fucking idea. This stuff is just _so_ SUBJECTIVE. Lol.
> 
> Ah, fuck me. I need to go to bed.


Tigers are hunters. They are queen of the forest - and they know it.

It's more of a hungry, hunting eye. "I see my prey. I watch my prey in silence. When they are vulnerable, I will strike."

:kitteh:

/introjection


----------



## Kintsugi

Animal said:


> Tigers are hunters. They are queen of the forest - and they know it.
> 
> It's more of a hungry, hunting eye. "I see my prey. I watch my prey in silence. When they are vulnerable, I will strike."
> 
> :kitteh:
> 
> /introjection


Sounds kinky. What about the signature pic? 

Let me have a go...

Is the castle like your ideal or something? It looks like you got your eye on it. And as for the nakedness, well...is that vulnability? Or is it more, "FREEDOM", kinda shit?

Yeah. I'm not an intuitive. Sorry to disappoint.


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> Sounds kinky. What about the signature pic?
> 
> Let me have a go...
> 
> Is the castle like your ideal or something? It looks like you got your eye on it. And as for the nakedness, well...is that vulnability? Or is it more, "FREEDOM", kinda shit?
> 
> Yeah. I'm not an intuitive. Sorry to disappoint.


Actually you're not far off.

The signature is about finding freedom in vulnerability, and in that honesty, finding the path to my dreams. It's about strength in vulnerability and integrity of ideals, action and self-expression.


----------



## Kintsugi

Animal said:


> finding freedom in vulnerability, and in that honesty, finding the path to my dreams. It's about strength in vulnerability and integrity of ideals, action and self-expression.


Sounds familiar. It's a good image. Dare I say, it drew me in even more so than the avatar.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

-Alpha- said:


> I'm relatively certain half the posters here don't know what the hell they're thanking.


And why is that?


----------



## -Alpha-

Kink said:


> And why is that?


The frequency at which they thank the people they do as if everything said people post I'd gold 100% of the time seems indicative to me of doing so for a slice of the social pie as opposed to doing so for reasons regarding validity of opinion. 

Which is not to say said opinions aren't valid, but that the reasons for thanking said opinions are suspect.


----------



## Animal

-Alpha- said:


> The frequency at which they thank the people they do as if everything said people post I'd gold 100% of the time seems indicative to me of doing so for a slice of the social pie as opposed to doing so for reasons regarding validity of opinion.
> 
> Which is not to say said opinions aren't valid, but that the* reasons for thanking said opinions are suspect.*


Suspect of what?


----------



## -Alpha-

Animal said:


> Suspect of what?


I often wonder if the person I'm talking to on a given forum is cute. Especially the ones that question me.

Suspect of some ulterior motive. I'm not sure. I don't have enough data.


----------



## Animal

-Alpha- said:


> I often wonder if the person I'm talking to on a given forum is cute. Especially the ones that question me.
> 
> Suspect of some ulterior motive. I'm not sure. I don't have enough data.


Do you often suspect people of ulterior motives?

Also, what constitutes an ulterior motive? Does "I like you as a person thus I thank post" count as ulterior motive?


----------



## Scelerat

-Alpha- said:


> The frequency at which they thank the people they do as if everything said people post I'd gold 100% of the time seems indicative to me of doing so for a slice of the social pie as opposed to doing so for reasons regarding validity of opinion.
> 
> Which is not to say said opinions aren't valid, but that the reasons for thanking said opinions are suspect.


Until we have "fuck off" buttons as well, they will always be suspect. Sure, for my posts, it's because mine are a slice of gold, but as for the rest of you  

My reasoning for the "dishwashing" earlier in the thread was simply that some people have the habit of asserting their opinion very strongly very early on in someone's membership and I think it's unhealthy to be too strongly "gestured" towards a type early in your self-discovery process. 

I think it's safer to stick with the literature that exists from actual authorities that have put their name to their writings, part of the problem (from my perspective) with a function like Ni, is that people tend to "push" their view of what it is, but it will naturally come out both translated through their extroverting function but also as highly personal to them. 

The nature of the subjective functions (the I functions) is their highly personal nature, people seem to get this to a larger degree with Si and Fi, than with Ni, and I think trying to translate it to someone else has a tendency to make it into something it's not.

There is a reason why I'm among the most well-read on typology on this board, yet hardly ever participate in type me threads and insist on talking to people privately for a while before typing them. What someone types as doesn't bug me most of the time, if they invent their own typing method and start pushing people down a bad road of self-knowledge though ,I do care.


----------



## -Alpha-

Animal said:


> Do you often suspect people of ulterior motives?
> 
> Also, what constitutes an ulterior motive? Does "I like you as a person thus I thank post" count as ulterior motive?


Almost always, though, that's not to say that those ulterior motives are always bad. Or even often bad. For example, a friend habitually inviting me out might mean that said person is interested as opposed to being strictly interested in seeing a movie or getting pizza.

That's actually an interesting question.

To me an ulterior motive means anything not relating to the specific content of the post, such as thanking someone because you like them. This opinion being in place due to, relative to my interpretation, thanks being in place as a show of appreciation for the content of that post. Anything outside of that being considered an ulterior motive. This includes thanking for social reasons, in reference to an earlier post, irony or due to conflict resolution or lack of desire to continue an argument.

Probably other reasons, but that's off the top of my head.


----------



## Kintsugi

Scelerat said:


> There is a reason why I'm among the most well-read on typology on this board, yet hardly ever participate in type me threads and insist on talking to people privately for a while before typing them. What someone types as doesn't bug me most of the time, if they invent their own typing method and start pushing people down a bad road of self-knowledge though ,I do care.


Ah, fuck it. You got to put your money where your mouth is. ^_^. Theory counts for jack-shit when it comes to trying to box me. I'm yet to find a model that it suitable for the job. Hence, my grievances with all the "subjective" bullshit. 

In other words; I'm asking you to PM me, and give me your brutal opinion.  

Enlighten me, I dare you. ^_^


----------



## Aha

-Alpha- said:


> To me an ulterior motive means anything not relating to the specific content of the post, such as thanking someone because you like them. This opinion being in place due to, relative to my interpretation, thanks being in place as a show of appreciation for the content of that post. Anything outside of that being considered an ulterior motive. This includes thanking for social reasons, in reference to an earlier post, irony or due to conflict resolution or lack of desire to continue an argument.
> 
> Probably other reasons, but that's off the top of my head.


Thanks do not cost me anything and yet, people on another end of the internet will be a nano bit happier if I push the button.
But I never thank posts I do not agree with. So, my thanks are a range of confirmation from a simple nod to a happy hug/kiss.


p.s. kisses only for girls


----------



## Scelerat

Kintsugi said:


> Ah, fuck it. You got to put your money where your mouth is. ^_^. Theory counts for jack-shit when it comes to trying to box me. I'm yet to find a model that it suitable for the job. Hence, my grievances with all the "subjective" bullshit.
> 
> In other words; I'm asking you to PM me, and give me your brutal opinion.
> 
> Enlighten me, I dare you. ^_^


OK, Pm me with information about yourself. I'll probably crawl your whole post history as well, so it's better that you tell me.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

-Alpha- said:


> The frequency at which they thank the people they do as if everything said people post I'd gold 100% of the time seems indicative to me of doing so for a slice of the social pie as opposed to doing so for reasons regarding validity of opinion.
> 
> Which is not to say said opinions aren't valid, but that the reasons for thanking said opinions are suspect.


Well, I've noticed I do often thank posts by the same people a lot, but I think a big part of it is that, if their reasoning resonates with me once, for example, it's likely that it's going to resonate with me again since they have the kind of reasoning that resonates with me in the first place. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.


----------



## Kintsugi

Scelerat said:


> OK, Pm me with information about yourself. I'll probably crawl your whole post history as well, so it's better that you tell me.


You gotta be specific, what kinda info do you want? I have a very short attention span - it's probably best if you ask me a set of questions. Please stick to the point as well, no flowery bullshit, thanks. As you type as ENTJ I'm quietly confident that this won't be an issue. 

Fell free to crawl my history. I'm sure it will be fairly entertaining. I'm looking forward to you uncovering some gems; because, quite frankly, I have no idea how the fuck you obtain your whole post history?

Anyway. derailed enough.


----------



## Scelerat

Kintsugi said:


> You gotta be specific, what kinda info do you want? I have a very short attention span - it's probably best if you ask me a set of questions. Please stick to the point as well, no flowery bullshit, thanks. As you type as ENTJ I'm quietly confident that this won't be an issue.
> 
> Fell free to crawl my history. I'm sure it will be fairly entertaining. I'm looking forward to you uncovering some gems; because, quite frankly, I have no idea how the fuck you obtain your whole post history?
> 
> Anyway. derailed enough.


Being specific about what information I want imposes my preference onto yours, which is counter-productive.


----------



## Kintsugi

Scelerat said:


> Being specific about what information I want imposes my preference onto yours, which is counter-productive.


I'll be completely honest here, dude, these questions are starting to hurt my head. I think we've done enough talking. Let's just get down to this shit.


----------



## Scelerat

Kintsugi said:


> I'll be completely honest here, dude, these questions are starting to hurt my head. I think we've done enough talking. Let's just get down to this shit.


Think about it like this, if I asked you present the accounting numbers for a venture, I've restricted you quite a bit. If I ask you to present the venture, your choice in information is much more telling.


----------



## HellCat

Gross. I see theres more preschool games at play.


----------



## Kintsugi

Scelerat said:


> Think about it like this, if I asked you present the accounting numbers for a venture, I've restricted you quite a bit. If I ask you to present the venture, your choice in information is much more telling.


Yeah, I get it. And I appreciate it.


----------



## Kintsugi

LeoCat said:


> Gross. I see theres more preschool games at play.


Oh yea, wanna be more specific about that?


----------



## HellCat

Kintsugi said:


> Oh yea, wanna be more specific about that?


Just a walking stereotype looking for special attention the last few days. 

What else could one expect, depth and an ability to rationalize?


----------



## mimesis

Aha said:


> Why don't you just say a crush that he is crush and thank shit out of his posts.


Because some men would feel emascul8d? :tongue:


----------



## Kintsugi

LeoCat said:


> Just a walking stereotype looking for special attention.
> 
> What else could one expect, depth and an ability to rationalize?


You're still not being very clear who you are referring to here. If it's me, then I invite you to send my a a PM where we can discuss this further.


----------



## HellCat

Go play in traffic honey, you are derailing and boring the people who actually care about typology and healing with your circular reasoning. 

I thought @Cosmic Orgasm had this handled once.


----------



## MNiS

The new direction this thread has turned is rather intriguing. My interest in this thread has been peaked... I mean piqued... yeahhh... that's what I meant.


----------



## Kintsugi

LeoCat said:


> Go play in traffic honey, you are derailing and boring the people who actually care about typology and healing with your circular reasoning.
> 
> I thought @_Cosmic Orgasm_ had this handled once.


Boring.


----------



## -Alpha-

Aha said:


> Thanks do not cost me anything and yet, people on another end of the internet will be a nano bit happier if I push the button.
> But I never thank posts I do not agree with. So, my thanks are a range of confirmation from a simple nod to a happy hug/kiss.
> 
> 
> p.s. kisses only for girls


My thank was a dry hump... I'm told I move too fast.



Kink said:


> Well, I've noticed I do often thank posts by the same people a lot, but I think a big part of it is that, if their reasoning resonates with me once, for example, it's likely that it's going to resonate with me again since they have the kind of reasoning that resonates with me in the first place. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.


I choose to read the post beforehand. the fact that they tend to resonate with me doesn't mean that their current post is going to. I prefer to give merit to individual posts. For example, I tend to agree with ephemeral, but in regards to things like mistyping, we're pretty strongly opposed.



Scelerat said:


> Until we have "fuck off" buttons as well, they will always be suspect. Sure, for my posts, it's because mine are a slice of gold, but as for the rest of you


NTJ humor. I loled.



> My reasoning for the "dishwashing" earlier in the thread was simply that some people have the habit of asserting their opinion very strongly very early on in someone's membership and I think it's unhealthy to be too strongly "gestured" towards a type early in your self-discovery process.
> 
> I think it's safer to stick with the literature that exists from actual authorities that have put their name to their writings, part of the problem (from my perspective) with a function like Ni, is that people tend to "push" their view of what it is, but it will naturally come out both translated through their extroverting function but also as highly personal to them.
> 
> The nature of the subjective functions (the I functions) is their highly personal nature, people seem to get this to a larger degree with Si and Fi, than with Ni, and I think trying to translate it to someone else has a tendency to make it into something it's not.
> 
> There is a reason why I'm among the most well-read on typology on this board, yet hardly ever participate in type me threads and insist on talking to people privately for a while before typing them. What someone types as doesn't bug me most of the time, if they invent their own typing method and start pushing people down a bad road of self-knowledge though ,I do care.


I agree largely. I think a lot of Ni (Dom?) users tend to go down the "well, there are different interpretations" road too often, especially when their argument doesn't hold up. I personally have a positive association with ephemeral as being one of the three users (credit to Octavian, Athenian200 as well) that confirmed my typing seperately from one another. His process worked for me. There does have to be an agreed upon standard as to what we're even arguing about, as subjectivity on top of more subjectivity isn't useful for many people. Additionally, it is apparent to me that some are in fact more knowledgeable than others and I think of myself as more capable than most of interpreting the chaos.

I'm somewhere in the middle between believing claiming everything being subjective not being useful and sticking too strictly to established authority is constricting towards progress and better understanding of oneself.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


----------



## Scelerat

-Alpha- said:


> I agree largely. I think a lot of Ni (Dom?) users tend to go down the "well, there are different interpretations" road too often, especially when their argument doesn't hold up. I personally have a positive association with ephemeral as being one of the three users (credit to Octavian, Athenian200 as well) that confirmed my typing seperately from one another. His process worked for me. There does have to be an agreed upon standard as to what we're even arguing about, as subjectivity on top of more subjectivity isn't useful for many people. Additionally, it is apparent to me that some are in fact more knowledgeable than others and I think of myself as more capable than most of interpreting the chaos.
> 
> I'm somewhere in the middle between believing claiming everything being subjective not being useful and sticking too strictly to established authority is constricting towards progress and better understanding of oneself.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


In my case, it's simply that Emphem while being knowledgeable is not that good of a typer due to the shortcomings I brought attention to earlier. My view is that his method is very much based in his subjective understanding of an amalgamate of typing methods and systems.


----------



## -Alpha-

Scelerat said:


> In my case, it's simply that Emphem while being knowledgeable is not that good of a typer due to the shortcomings I brought attention to earlier. My view is that his method is very much based in his subjective understanding of an amalgamate of typing methods and systems.


That's fair. His process worked for me, but I'd definitely agree that his process is his own interpretation of the data he's been given. The difference being that for me he is a good enough standard to judge against. Until we can scan the brains of every person and identify enneagram and MBTI types, we can't know for certain if his process is effective. Until then, we have to take what any poster says with something of a grain of salt. Objective standard such as authors such as Lenore Thomson or, ya know, Jung works the best with what we have, most definitely.

Totally do need rules to play the game, right?


----------



## HighClassSavage

drmiller100 said:


> No, I'll thank you now.
> 
> Thank You. And thank you Cosmic for supporting his offer.
> 
> I do have a need and desire for validation. I do want to be heard. I do dream of someone listening to me, and understanding me, and KNOWING me.
> 
> I can work on that, and tear down a few walls, and still not be vulnerable and weak.


I like this response. I actually respect this a lot. More power to you Doc!


----------



## Kintsugi

Scelerat said:


> In my case, it's simply that Emphem while being knowledgeable is not that good of a typer due to the shortcomings I brought attention to earlier. My view is that his method is very much based in his subjective understanding of an amalgamate of typing methods and systems.


Yeah, but can you blame him? Said systems are pretty much a load of crock when really put under scrutiny. I think this thread kind of illustrates that quite nicely. 

I get your point though.


----------



## Kintsugi

-Alpha- said:


> That's fair. His process worked for me, but I'd definitely agree that his process is his own interpretation of the data he's been given. The difference being that for me he is a good enough standard to judge against. Until we can scan the brains of every person and identify enneagram and MBTI types, we can't know for certain if his process is effective. Until then, we have to take what any poster says with something of a grain of salt. Objective standard such as authors such as Lenore Thomson or, ya know, Jung works the best with what we have, most definitely.
> 
> Totally do need rules to play the game, right?


Totally agree. He makes sense to me also. I'm very open minded, so I'm always on the lookout for other ideas/interpretation.

But, as you said, until we have that _data; _people can believe and follow who the fuck they want.

Until then, this is just a clash of ideologies. Which doesn't sit comfortably with such a skeptical old fuck as I. ^_^


----------



## drmiller100

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> Well, it is supposedly called the gentle mistype thread for a reason. :3
> 
> I struggle to be more honest and open with people which is hard for me when you've been ridiculed your whole life for doing that.
> 
> 
> I find it difficult to deal with life because unpredictable people and unforeseen circumstances are always threatening to drain me of my inadequate reserves of energy. I hate intense emotion because it's so exhausting - the more intense, the more recovery time I need to get back to myself but I can sill be pretty adventurous - just so long as I am able to plan and am able to exercise sufficient control over circumstances.
> 
> I believe that typology in general but especially the Enneagram is our soul's journey and while other people can assist us in finding out our true path; ultimately we are the ones who have to travel it . . . alone.


The first sentence I can totally agree to.

The second paragraph is totally not me. I LOVE intense emotion as long as that emotion is rage. not anger, not destruction necessarily, but the rage is power. I LOVE excitement and unforseen anything. I do not generally plan much more than what the plan is for the day, but that is totally subject to change. 

The last I agree with generally.

Again, thank you.


----------



## O_o

I happen to click on one of the 100th pages and there were intense paragraph wars going on, oh boy. 

Mine is sure to be wrong. It was originally 5. Then 7. When I attempted to zoom into it. Somebody suggested 9, I looked into 9 and thought 9 for a while. Once again, certain aspects fit more with 5. Debating 5 again. Statistically speaking (based on how many 9s confuse themselves with 5s, it's probably 9) then reread and realize all the areas which don't fit. Now think neither. Should read into it more maybe, find better sources.


----------



## drmiller100

LeoCat said:


> Just a walking stereotype looking for special attention the last few days.
> 
> What else could one expect, depth and an ability to rationalize?


there are a half dozen who have posted in this very thread in the past few days cosmic has "taken care of" before.

Drop a dime, and name a name.


----------



## Doll

-Alpha- said:


> The frequency at which they thank the people they do as if everything said people post I'd gold 100% of the time seems indicative to me of doing so for a slice of the social pie as opposed to doing so for reasons regarding validity of opinion.


Personally, I "like" a post if the content is inspiring/thought-provoking/interesting. Sometimes I like posts even if I have a personal conflict with or a dislike of the poster, because what they've written has moved me in some way.

If it's generic material and I can easily scroll past it, then I'd be more inclined to like it for social reasons rather than for the post itself, so, I'm guilty of having ulterior motives. But everyone is.

ALSO.

On a lighter note.
@_Aha_, if you make a gif for me I would love you forever. Not that I've done/said anything particularly interesting, I would just be v. happy.


----------



## drmiller100

"The tendency to fall prey to certain specific distortions is what defines types, imo. That you have mastered your weakness over time does not take away from the fact that your tendency is still towards that particular distortion. "

So, examining my assumptions, is the goal to master your weaknesses to minimize the distortions? 

My goal has been to understand my type, and me in my type, to recognize paths for growth by learning what are strengths. I am not trying to "master my weaknesses" as much as understand them, and I certainly am not trying to minimize anything.


----------



## drmiller100

"With regard to self report, the thing often with maladaptive behavior is that people either don't see it is maladaptive (self-fulfilling prophecy), or don't believe how alternative options would improve, or have other reasons to decline."

the "observer effect" suggests systems are indeed affected by those who measure the system, and the more closely the system is measured, the more it is affected by the measurer (is that a word? Smiles) TO me, this implies the more you learn about the system (self), and the more you learn and use the measuring tool (enneagram), the more skewed the results of the original system over time.

I'm guilty of this.


----------



## Kisshoten

drmiller100 said:


> "The tendency to fall prey to certain specific distortions is what defines types, imo. That you have mastered your weakness over time does not take away from the fact that your tendency is still towards that particular distortion. "
> 
> So, examining my assumptions, is the goal to master your weaknesses to minimize the distortions?
> 
> My goal has been to understand my type, and me in my type, to recognize paths for growth by learning what are strengths. I am not trying to "master my weaknesses" as much as understand them, and I certainly am not trying to minimize anything.


Each type sees this journey of growth differently, I guess. I don't know. 

For me, falling prey to my vice is a weakness *and* a coping strategy. Without my vice, I would be different because I would be both better *and* worse off, considering my current condition.

For me, to understand myself better would be to identify where I take the less optimal or less appropriate approach to a problem or predicament I am faced with. When/if I understand myself correctly, I will be able to see when I am faced with similar predicaments while being able to take the appropriate solution/steps to solving my problem, rather than simply falling into a pattern of distractions. 

This is what I meant by 'mastering your weakness.'


----------



## drmiller100

Vergil said:


> E
> For me, falling prey to my vice is a weakness *and* a coping strategy. Without my vice, I would be different because I would be both better *and* worse off, considering my current condition.
> 
> .'


a tangent, then i'll get back to the story. inside my psyche or soul or whatever sometimes I want to look at something, and it will slide or slither away, and I can almost feel something in my soul distract my attention.

So, I "forgot" what an 8's weakness is supposed to be, which has humor in context. And I went to look it up, and found this page from 2007.

The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - The 8's Weaknesses

and there is more irony here obviously. 

I have big fucking issues with vulnerability. I do not think I can "master" my weakness, but I can practice it.


----------



## Kisshoten

drmiller100 said:


> a tangent, then i'll get back to the story. inside my psyche or soul or whatever sometimes I want to look at something, and it will slide or slither away, and I can almost feel something in my soul distract my attention.
> 
> So, I "forgot" what an 8's weakness is supposed to be, which has humor in context. And I went to look it up, and found this page from 2007.
> 
> The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - The 8's Weaknesses
> 
> and there is more irony here obviously.
> 
> I have big fucking issues with vulnerability. I do not think I can "master" my weakness, but I can practice it.


I thought 8s had issues with vulnerability too  So their weakness should be 'the inability to be vulnerable.' Going by that, if you're practicing vulnerability, you are mastering your weakness.


----------



## drmiller100

Vergil said:


> I thought 8s had issues with vulnerability too  So their weakness should be 'the inability to be vulnerable.' Going by that, if you're practicing vulnerability, you are mastering your weakness.


smiles.

mastering my vulnerability. seems counter intuitive, or an oxymoron, or something to me, but I understand what you mean.

(smiles)


----------



## Doll

I'm starting to wonder if I would even recognize an 8 if I saw one at this point, lol.


----------



## -Alpha-

Vergil said:


> I thought 8s had issues with vulnerability too  So their weakness should be 'the inability to be vulnerable.' Going by that, if you're practicing vulnerability, you are mastering your weakness.


I hate Ti so much sometimes...


----------



## AST

-Alpha- said:


> I hate Ti so much sometimes...


This Ti-lead is still going WTF at that notion.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Well, what @_Vergil_ said sounds makes sense to me. :tongue: So maybe Ti isn't the issue here.


----------



## -Alpha-

Throughout my research of enneagram, I enjoy the mysticism much more than the more scientific (lol) aspects of it. Delicious Holy idea goodness...

I'm honestly unsure as to how to interpret integration, however. It appaears to me that at a certain health level, one might mistake a healthy x type for other x type as opposed to some sort of transformation like most seem to believe. The opposite obviously being true for disintegration. 

Also relatively unsure (though I'm looking into it) how to interpret the idea of a tri type. Relative to where I stand, it only makes sense to experience the fixes through the lens of the core as opposed to actually being these types at any given time. Just unfounded speculation in light of needing to do more reading. Likely going to purchase a book soon, as online resources only seem to yield so much. Any book recommendations?

My type still stands, relative to my perspective. Always willing to hear second opinions, though not regarding my core.


----------



## Kisshoten

-Alpha- said:


> Throughout my research of enneagram, I enjoy the mysticism much more than the more scientific (lol) aspects of it. Delicious Holy idea goodness...
> 
> I'm honestly unsure as to how to interpret integration, however. It appaears to me that at a certain health level, one might mistake a healthy x type for other x type as opposed to some sort of transformation like most seem to believe. The opposite obviously being true for disintegration.
> 
> Also relatively unsure (though I'm looking into it) how to interpret the idea of a tri type. Relative to where I stand, it only makes sense to experience the fixes through the lens of the core as opposed to actually being these types at any given time. Just unfounded speculation in light of needing to do more reading. Likely going to purchase a book soon, as online resources only seem to yield so much. Any book recommendations?
> 
> My type still stands, relative to my perspective. Always willing to hear second opinions, though not regarding my core.


Unless you would consider my unsolicited suggestion as not worth your time, perhaps you should focus on core theory of the types without introducing other factors like wings, tritypes, health levels, etc. 

(The shift of focus from what is central to what is ancillary is what led me to insert myself in this thread in the first place )

Getting the books is a great step.


----------



## -Alpha-

Vergil said:


> Unless you would consider my unsolicited suggestion as not worth your time, perhaps you should focus on core theory of the types without introducing other factors like wings, tritypes, health levels, etc.
> 
> (The shift of focus from what is central to what is ancillary is what led me to insert myself in this thread in the first place )
> 
> Getting the books is a great step.


It's a free forum.

Previous quote meant to be joking.


----------



## Aha

Vergil said:


> I thought 8s had issues with vulnerability too  So their weakness should be 'the inability to be vulnerable.' Going by that, if you're practicing vulnerability, you are mastering your weakness.


Why would anyone (except women who can't get married) want to be vulnerable? This is ridiculous/pure nonsense. It is like one with a power to stop bullets would want to be shot by one. 



Kink said:


> Well, what @_Vergil_ said sounds makes sense to me. :tongue: So maybe Ti isn't the issue here.


 @_-Alpha-_ You see, another woman agreed. It is not JCF related thing :tongue:


----------



## Aha

Doll said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I would even recognize an 8 if I saw one at this point, lol.


Its not like seeing a unicorn :bored:. There are hundreds of millions of 8s and you, by walking a street, will meet at least a lot of them. Majestic description of a super-die-hard-leaders is a far exaggeration for majority of the bunch.



* *




Btw, we have a sticked Unicorn Thread on the ENTP forum. Come visit :laughing:


----------



## drmiller100

Aha said:


> Why would anyone (except women who can't get married) want to be vulnerable?
> 
> 
> \


To be loved. 

To be known.


----------



## Aha

drmiller100 said:


> To be loved.
> 
> To be known.


It is better to be known by your invulnerability than vulnerability. 

Loved? I could argue that too, but don't want to. It depends on a type of a partner. And from that we are getting into semantics.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Aha said:


> Why would anyone (except women who can't get married) want to be vulnerable? This is ridiculous/pure nonsense. It is like one with a power to stop bullets would want to be shot by one.
> 
> 
> 
> @ _-Alpha-_ You see, another woman agreed. It is not JCF related thing :tongue:


>___>


(I'm not looking to get married btw.)


----------



## drmiller100

Aha said:


> It is better to be known by your invulnerability than vulnerability.
> 
> .


For the vast majority of the world I totally agree. Vulnerability is an incredibly bad thing.

but I am getting older, and find myself a bit lonely, and it would be cool if someone knew me. and maybe if they knew me deeply and truly they could still love me. 

that could be cool. 

but if I don't have a way for them in how can they learn to know me? 

if the wrong person comes in (AGAIN) they can wander about my soul and trash it and call me worthless and unlovable and shallow. 

Risk.


----------



## Kisshoten

Aha said:


> Why would anyone (except women who can't get married) want to be vulnerable? This is ridiculous/pure nonsense. It is like one with a power to stop bullets would want to be shot by one.
> 
> 
> 
> @_-Alpha-_ You see, another woman agreed. It is not JCF related thing :tongue:


Your sexist remark is.. very tasty XD

Beware my bites in future. 
Tim the enchanter thought I died from God's grenade, but I was just unconscious.


----------



## Flatlander

-Alpha- said:


> Throughout my research of enneagram, I enjoy the mysticism much more than the more scientific (lol) aspects of it. Delicious Holy idea goodness...
> 
> I'm honestly unsure as to how to interpret integration, however. It appaears to me that at a certain health level, one might mistake a healthy x type for other x type as opposed to some sort of transformation like most seem to believe. The opposite obviously being true for disintegration.


Dis/integration connections manifest in behavioral and mental tendencies, which fluctuate in manifestation with your state of mind and mental health. They can come up in deeper ways if you pursue them through inner work, such as connecting with your 'soul child' (the integration point) or your other missing piece (the disintegration point) to round out your sense of self/being.



> Also relatively unsure (though I'm looking into it) how to interpret the idea of a tri type. Relative to where I stand, it only makes sense to experience the fixes through the lens of the core as opposed to actually being these types at any given time. Just unfounded speculation in light of needing to do more reading. Likely going to purchase a book soon, as online resources only seem to yield so much. Any book recommendations?


I'm with you on the viewpoint you've established here. Never really have I experienced a fix in its own right as opposed to through the core, though I think one's conscious focus can be on the issues of a fix outside of the core if their original needs are satiated, kind of like moving up the ladder in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or if circumstances of the moment demand it.


----------



## -Alpha-

Flatliner said:


> Dis/integration connections manifest in behavioral and mental tendencies, which fluctuate in manifestation with your state of mind and mental health. They can come up in deeper ways if you pursue them through inner work, such as connecting with your 'soul child' (the integration point) or your other missing piece (the disintegration point) to round out your sense of self/being.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the viewpoint you've established here. Never really have I experienced a fix in its own right as opposed to through the core, though I think one's conscious focus can be on the issues of a fix outside of the core if their original needs are satiated, kind of like moving up the ladder in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or if circumstances of the moment demand it.


I know I experience 5ish tendencies when I feel as though my peers are more capable than I am. In which case I spend my time biding and catching up to them only to blur past them all of a sudden and pretend I was more competent than them the entire time. Any strength or knowledge seek I've ever had is always only an extension of my extreme image consciousness. Every action I take can be traced back to validation of my narcissism. I've relatively scarcely experienced anything that I couldn't trace back to it short of obvious basic survival needs, though I'm even somewhat indifferent to that...

It's actually interesting. It really is no wonder so few will attest to being type 3, though I have come to view it with some amount of fondness, being a positive thinker. I know that through narcissism I will validate my narcissism in a self fulfilling prophecy from hell. Whether or not I am inherently what I think I am or just very apt at convincing myself I am is something I'm largely indifferent to, only caring about the outward manifestation of whatever I am inwardly.


----------



## Aha

Vergil said:


> Your sexist remark is.. very tasty XD
> 
> Beware my bites in future.
> Tim the enchanter thought I died from God's grenade, but I was just unconscious.


----------



## Aha

Observation:
Most mistypes are by Fi-users. As well as most people who are unsure of their type and chose "unknown".
Majority of people on the Enneagram forum are Fi-users. Fe users just get here, learn something and go away. 


There is something in this that we need to look closer.


----------



## Tzara

Aha said:


> Observation:
> Most mistypes are by Fi-users. As well as most people who are unsure of their type and chose "unknown".
> Majority of people on the Enneagram forum are Fi-users. Fe users just get here, learn something and go away.
> 
> 
> There is something in this that we need to look closer.


Interesting the most mistypes should be infjs imo


----------



## Aha

Tzara said:


> Interesting the most mistypes should be infjs imo


I meant enneagram-wise

mbti - yes, IN*J are the most popular "to be" here on perc because of "rareness". People love to be rare


----------



## mushr00m

mimesis said:


> I'm not disputing @_mushr00m_ 's understanding of fixation, core fears, etc. if that is what you mean. I look at the same from a different angle.
> 
> I think there is a difference between a personality /ego that corresponds with a type of distortion, and 'being' an 'actual 6'. You are not a type, you are you.
> 
> There is a huge difference between describing what a level 9 type 5 schizoid hermit 'is going through', who is alienated from 'Being' (from himself and the world) and a healthy level that is closer to self-actualization and self-realization, while both are 'actual 5s'. So who's to tell? *The more unhealthy an alienated a person is, the more you can expect distortion*, like 'I'm not paranoid, I just don't like to be followed'. (this is more jokingly but I hope you get the drift).


Just to briefly explain what I meant about saying you are a type, the word 'type' can be seen as a near definitive box to place ourselves in if we find ourselves identifying with the corresponding traits, trends in behaviour and motivation etc. I explained this quite recently actually, that type is an illusion in enneagram context, perhaps this is different for MBTI type which is not based on the same foundation as enneagram. But I was also using the word 'type' for shorthand to explain those groups that identify with the corresponding pattern. Unless you can come up with a better term to replace the word type since type seems to be based on some arbitrary constraint, is rigid in its identification with it's passion. 

The highlighted is a good point and was what I was getting at, in that with a group of people who all identify with 5 patterns or more specifically, pathological detachment(to keep it a little more humane in understanding than just saying type), how identifiable they are as someone who falls into this plane, it's interesting how the fixation is resorted to during various levels of health but that's a whole other discussion. 

Id be interested to know if you do have a better term to replace the word type, something more holistic, more flexible perhaps...  Short time to type...


----------



## Sixty Nein

Aha said:


> Observation:
> Most mistypes are by Fi-users. As well as most people who are unsure of their type and chose "unknown".
> Majority of people on the Enneagram forum are Fi-users. Fe users just get here, learn something and go away.


Wouldn't this be more of the domain of thinking? Or rather contrast would be from Ti-Fi or something along those lines?

I don't disagree with this. To the standards of a consensus, introverts are more likely to mistype themselves because they are more likely to use their own style of evaluating. Even if they are irrationals.


----------



## Animal

@_Aha_ @_Vergil_ @_Kink @drmiller100_

The problem is, if you're afraid to be vulnerable, you will become enslaved by that fear. You are at risk of becoming avoidant, and that will give people power over you, just because you are running away from something.

Obviously, being vulnerable is dangerous, and its a risk. You risk rejection, failure, or if it's physical vulnerability, even death. 

But spending your life running away from it, can also become a vulnerability in itself.

Strength can come in the form of defending yourself against threats, of course. Threats being physical, emotional, etc. But there is also strength in honesty and vulnerability, I have found. 

One example is that if I have skeletons in my closet, and anyone finds out, they have the power to betray me with that information. If I put all my skeletons out for the world to see, and my secret closet is empty, nobody has anything on me. They can threaten me all they want, but my information is already public. I am back in control then.

If I am hiding my feelings for someone, that gives him power over me because I am hiding. If I come out and tell him how I feel, lay myself bare - he might reject me, but at least I am in control because I have nothing to hide.


In the sense of being physically vulnerable (like when I was unable to walk, move or swallow from illness) - there is nothing desirable about this. However, getting through the experience made me stronger. Now I know I can handle anything, and while I might be momentarily reactive, deep down I am resilient in many ways that others are not. I have true, deep confidence that anything that comes my way, I will eventually bounce back. The phoenix will be reborn. So it's not that being vulnerable at the time was good, but knowing I can do it, and come out stronger.. is good.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> One example is that if I have skeletons in my closet, and anyone finds out, they have the power to betray me with that information. If I put all my skeletons out for the world to see, and my secret closet is empty, nobody has anything on me. They can threaten me all they want, but my information is already public. I am back in control then.
> 
> If I am hiding my feelings for someone, that gives him power over me because I am hiding. If I come out and tell him how I feel, lay myself bare - he might reject me, but at least I am in control because I have nothing to hide.


Yeah, I feel like this to some degree. Being vulnerable can feel empowering in a way. Now being _helpless _​on the other hand, I see differently, and it's not pleasant at all.


----------



## hal0hal0

Aha said:


> mbti - yes, IN*J are the most popular "to be" here on perc because of "rareness". People love to be rare


I think part of the problem, even when you get into functions, is that Ni is often described as "having difficulty putting things into words." The problem is that anyone new to the theory is going to have difficulty putting things into words because they are new to the language of typology, and may still be shaky with the vocabulary such as objective, subjective, rational, irrational, etc.. So suddenly, if you have difficulty putting things into words, what happens? You magically self-type at INXJ.

Also, gut instincts are overly ascribed to intuition.

Having difficulty putting things in words, if anything, is an introverted _*attitude *_thing, but I doubt it is function-specific per se (for instance, I think Fi descriptions, even by Jung, aren't very good because I think feeling deals with things that are difficult to describe so concretely... In fact, I don't think I've been able describe Fi very well myself).

~~~

And yes, I have noticed MOST enneagram forum regulars are Fi-users. I'd rank them as:

1. Mostly XXFPs
2. TJs second
3. TPs a close third (possibly tied with TJs)
4. FJs distant fourth

Who knows how many are typed correctly, but for whatever reason, I don't tend to see FJs stick around the enneagram forum as regularly. @_Aha_ if you have any thoughts on the correlation between enneagram *interest *and JCF makeup, feel free to make a thread as I've been very curious about this for sometime now. Things such as purpose, value, etc. do seem the domain of feeling and I've read somewhere that enneagram fixations themselves are rooted in feeling, but that's probably an oversimplification?

i.e., is there a correlation between JCF and enneagram enthusiasm in the first place, and if so, why?


----------



## Animal

Kink said:


> Yeah, I feel like this to some degree. Being vulnerable can feel empowering in a way. Now being _helpless _​on the other hand, I see differently, and it's not pleasant at all.


Being helpless in the arms of a man who completely overpowers me despite all my efforts to fight it actually turns me on.. 
... tremendously..

... as does being completely overpowered in an intellectual debate, being ripped open emotionally until I'm crying, despite all my efforts at a show of detachment.... 

*purr*

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/177967-he-tortures-me-turns-me.html

but, I realize this is a personal quirk.

And of course, I would not want to be that way with just anyone.


And I certainly would not want to be helpless in a general sense.

It's only a turn-on if I am in a state of mind where I feel like I have so much power, and so much control, and wisdom, and promise.. and someone just rips it all down in a moment, strips me of all notions of control, makes me surrender. I love being overpowered, but only because I have a deeper sense of confidence. If I felt truly powerless in a more general sense, then being overpowered would just make me feel worse. So it really depends on state of mind. Thats why I say it takes strength to be vulnerable.


----------



## Sixty Nein

@Aha

I must ask, am I the exception to the Fe-user rule not sticking around here or not (by way of being a Te-Fi type) or whatever type.

I wonder if @Cosmic Orgasm shall assess my type too, since I'm asking.

I just like to know what people think about me, even at a first impression level.


----------



## Sina

Necrophilous said:


> @_Aha_
> 
> I must ask, am I the exception to the Fe-user rule not sticking around here or not (by way of being a Te-Fi type) or whatever type.
> 
> I wonder if @_Cosmic Orgasm_ shall assess my type too, since I'm asking.
> 
> I just like to know what people think about me, even at a first impression level.


As I said, I'll contact you myself when I decide to get into your typing. I told you to wait a few weeks. It hasn't been a week yet. XD
Don't worry. I'll get to it.


----------



## drmiller100

Animal said:


> @_Aha_ @_Vergil_ @_Kink @drmiller100_
> 
> But spending your life running away from it, can also become a vulnerability in itself.
> 
> Strength can come in the form of defending yourself against threats, of course..


I don't run away, I don't defend myself. I attack. 

I throw off "enough" people don't attack me. I'm going to miss aha.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> As I said, I'll contact you myself when I decide to get into your typing. I told you to wait a few weeks. It hasn't been a week yet. XD
> Don't worry. I'll get to it.


Oh. I don't really pay attention to time.

Or I'm just impatient.


----------



## Psithurism

Necrophilous said:


> I just like to know what people think about me, even at a first impression level.


Special snowflake. Nothing else matters honestly.


----------



## Animal

drmiller100 said:


> I'm going to miss aha.


:crying:


----------



## -Alpha-

hal0hal0 said:


> I think part of the problem, even when you get into functions, is that Ni is often described as "having difficulty putting things into words." The problem is that anyone new to the theory is going to have difficulty putting things into words because they are new to the language of typology, and may still be shaky with the vocabulary such as objective, subjective, rational, irrational, etc.. So suddenly, if you have difficulty putting things into words, what happens? You magically self-type at INXJ.
> 
> Also, gut instincts are overly ascribed to intuition.
> 
> Having difficulty putting things in words, if anything, is an introverted _*attitude *_thing, but I doubt it is function-specific per se (for instance, I think Fi descriptions, even by Jung, aren't very good because I think feeling deals with things that are difficult to describe so concretely... In fact, I don't think I've been able describe Fi very well myself).
> 
> ~~~
> 
> And yes, I have noticed MOST enneagram forum regulars are Fi-users. I'd rank them as:
> 
> 1. Mostly XXFPs
> 2. TJs second
> 3. TPs a close third (possibly tied with TJs)
> 4. FJs distant fourth
> 
> Who knows how many are typed correctly, but for whatever reason, I don't tend to see FJs stick around the enneagram forum as regularly. @_Aha_ if you have any thoughts on the correlation between enneagram *interest *and JCF makeup, feel free to make a thread as I've been very curious about this for sometime now. Things such as purpose, value, etc. do seem the domain of feeling and I've read somewhere that enneagram fixations themselves are rooted in feeling, but that's probably an oversimplification?
> 
> i.e., is there a correlation between JCF and enneagram enthusiasm in the first place, and if so, why?


I would speculate that most people know the difference between not knowing terminology and not being able to put functions into words. I think the issue has much more to do with pure delusion, people labeling themselves as intuitive due to positive societal connotations, the word 'intuitive' being construed as 'intelligent' as well, statistics indicating things such as average IQ among types making INJ extremely popular, few people believing themselves to be stupid. I'd say mistypings are mostly due to 'type marketing' as opposed to something related to the identification of functions. Ni often being poorly communicated as having mystical properties does compound it, but I believe type marketing is the source through rarity and misconception, poor descriptions of functions only compounding the issue.




Aha said:


> I meant enneagram-wise
> 
> mbti - yes, IN*J are the most popular "to be" here on perc because of "rareness". People love to be rare


The supposed "rareness" of INJ is taken out of context by most. Assuming you're evem the rarest type being a male INFJ, you're likely to spot one or two other of your 
'kind' in an average day if you work with the public or live in a densely populated area. I do think rareness is a factor as to why people choose to represent themselves as a certain type, but I don't think its being thought of in context. I would also wonder why ENxJ aren't types that are similarly sought after. Is it due to those types being harder to convince people of? Personally, I think the ENTJ stereotype is far more attractive.


----------



## -Alpha-

Also, no idea what people see in specific enneagram types. I don't understand the typology's use if not to identify weaknesses and overcome them. Few real positive connotations seem to actually exist between enneagram types (exceptions being competency types like 5? Though I would say that's only due to dense INTx population).

But whatever. I just come for the mysticism and to hit on Boss, so what do I know?


----------



## hal0hal0

-Alpha- said:


> I would speculate that most people know the difference between not knowing terminology and not being able to put functions into words. I think the issue has much more to do with pure delusion, people labeling themselves as intuitive due to positive societal connotations, the word 'intuitive' being construed as 'intelligent' as well, statistics indicating things such as average IQ among types making INJ extremely popular, few people believing themselves to be stupid. I'd say mistypings are mostly due to 'type marketing' as opposed to something related to the identification of functions. Ni often being poorly communicated as having mystical properties does compound it, but I believe type marketing is the source through rarity and misconception, poor descriptions of functions only compounding the issue.


Good point. I see the problem as being a decentralized one with many contributing factors so as I said, poor understanding of terminology is _part _of the problem (although, some might argue there isn't even a problem at all; after all, does typology really matter in the real world? Kinda sorta maybe, but 99% of the population can live pretty kick-ass lives without it). Adding onto your point about special snowflake syndrome, I'd say generational and cultural influences, as well, contribute to the overidentification with "rare" types. Especially the Millennial generation, an age of "stay in school," extracurricular activities, playing Mozart to unborn fetuses and, generally speaking, a culture that is heavily self-centered (although, of course, I've seen people argue that it's not self-centered enough).

Millennials: The Me Me Me Generation - TIME

For me, at least, JCF only really started making sense when I 1) Read PT and 2) began considering the inferior or unconscious element to cognition. I feel people get too wrapped up in the functions themselves, even though Jung himself pointed out that it was the introverted-extraverted _*attitudes *_that were of principal importance:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/86903-its-attitude-stupid.html

I also wish people would talk about these things more in context. Typology is important (to me at least) but I think it kinda shortchanges culture and personal experience at times in terms of giving definition to "who we are." I even made a thread about this very thing, in part because I questioned whether generational influences even existed or whether they are more like delusions or projections of ourselves (i.e., the older generations criticizing the younger generation, saying "things ain't like they used to be" etc., even though it's a OLD DANCE that's been going on throughout history):

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...e-generational-influences-come-into-play.html


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> ...


I can't. I just can't. 

It's just too painful. If you can define max painfulness this would be it. 

Better safe than sorry. Or at least, amused than sorry.


----------



## Kisshoten

@hal0hal0

I looked up this same thing, today in the afternoon!

:O:O:O

A sign! (of what I don't know. But this is one of those fantastic instances you have every now and then)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

-Alpha- said:


> Also, no idea what people see in specific enneagram types. I don't understand the typology's use if not to identify weaknesses and overcome them. Few real positive connotations seem to actually exist between enneagram types (exceptions being competency types like 5? Though I would say that's only due to dense INTx population).


I believe that's the purpose of finding your enneagram type, yes. Still, it's not weird to find the idea of certain types attractive imo. I mean... weaknesses can be attractive in their way. >_>


----------



## hal0hal0

Vergil said:


> @_hal0hal0_
> 
> I looked up this same thing, today in the afternoon!
> 
> :O:O:O
> 
> A sign! (of what I don't know. But this is one of those fantastic instances you have every now and then)


Wait, which same thing are you referring to? I've made several posts in the last few minutes and I'm not sure which one you're talking about? 

I guess I'm just a thick-headed SP that needs things spelled out, preferably in big, flashing neon lights.


----------



## Kisshoten

hal0hal0 said:


> Good point. I see the problem as being a decentralized one with many contributing factors so as I said, poor understanding of terminology is





hal0hal0 said:


> _part _of the problem (although, some might argue there isn't even a problem at all; after all, does typology really matter in the real world? Kinda sorta maybe, but 99% of the population can live pretty kick-ass lives without it). Adding onto your point about special snowflake syndrome, I'd say generational and cultural influences, as well, contribute to the overidentification with "rare" types. Especially the Millennial generation, an age of "stay in school," extracurricular activities, playing Mozart to unborn fetuses and, generally speaking, a culture that is heavily self-centered (although, of course, I've seen people argue that it's not self-centered enough).
> 
> Millennials: The Me Me Me Generation - TIME
> 
> For me, at least, JCF only really started making sense when I 1) Read PT and 2) began considering the inferior or unconscious element to cognition. I feel people get too wrapped up in the functions themselves, even though Jung himself pointed out that it was the introverted-extraverted _*attitudes *_that were of principal importance:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/86903-its-attitude-stupid.html
> 
> I also wish people would talk about these things more in context. Typology is important (to me at least) but I think it kinda shortchanges culture and personal experience at times in terms of giving definition to "who we are." I even made a thread about this very thing, in part because I questioned whether generational influences even existed or whether they are more like delusions or projections of ourselves (i.e., the older generations criticizing the younger generation, saying "things ain't like they used to be" etc., even though it's a OLD DANCE that's been going on throughout history):
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...e-generational-influences-come-into-play.html





This one. 
Sorry..


----------



## hal0hal0

Vergil said:


> This one.
> Sorry..


No worries. It is fascinating, though, no?


----------



## Paradigm

-Alpha- said:


> Also, no idea what people see in specific enneagram types. I don't understand the typology's use if not to identify weaknesses and overcome them. Few real positive connotations seem to actually exist between enneagram types


Nah people don't really type as X due to the _positive_ connotations (well, some do). It's the misunderstanding of how deep the fixation goes. Common examples: 4 being the only type to feel alienated, or 5 being the only type capable of being a bookworm. When you add in the fact that most users here are below age 30, it's just natural for many to derp their self-typing due to impatience and a lack of understanding (of themselves, of their past, of the system, etc.).


----------



## Kisshoten

@_Animal_

I wanted to draft a less humorous reply too. But the funny ones are just too good to pass up on. 

My primary focus is on not having to feel regret or guilt. I can deal with pretty much anything else. Mistakes that make you miserable are what I am running from.

I don't want to realize that I put myself through every single trouble because I made a mistake which is very common to make and relies on chance. As a consequence I must try things to see how I like them before I can commit to a decision enough to make things the way I want them to be.

How do you realize whether or not you like something? You try it. If you like it you stick. If you don't you move on. But then, when you are the thing that others are trying, remember, that when they leave, they will take a piece of you with them. And that is painful to me. I wish to be forever whole, or perhaps gain more. But I do not wish become less.

It's a selfish thing to say what I have said, but it's true. I don't mind offering more of my ideas. Of those I have several. Enough to shower the world with thoughts and then some. But of my love, I wish for it to only grow and never diminish. And especially not because of stupid people.

EDIT: the comment on 'stupid people' is not be interpreted like so - "You stupid people don't deserve ma ass."

It is to be interpreted as - "Fie! You lesser beings have reduced me to a tragic mess! Oh, is there no compassion in this world?!"


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> Nah people don't really type as X due to the _positive_ connotations (well, some do). It's the misunderstanding of how deep the fixation goes. Common examples: 4 being the only type to feel alienated, or 5 being the only type capable of being a bookworm. When you add in the fact that most users here are below age 30, it's just natural for many to derp their self-typing due to impatience and a lack of understanding (of themselves, of their past, of the system, etc.).


There are some assumptions here.

Some people mistype for genuine reasons. Even if they mistype at 5, 4, or 8, it's not always for stupid reasons.

I mistyped at 5, which is lolzy, but I didn't "derp" my way into that typing, even at age 21, in the midst of a trauma. I had very real reasons to do it. I listed about 1/2000th of them on this thread, here:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...yourself-your-past-mistype-5.html#post8076290

I have serious rejection themes. If it ends up I'm a core 7, I have a line to 5. If it ends up I'm a 4, I have 5 influence. But even if I ended up being a 2 or a 3, I still didn't "derp" my way into that mistype for the reason that "zomgz, 5s are smart and different". It was painful, and odious, to accept that I was a 5 back then, even though I mistyped. I felt naked and angry and disgusted with myself about being a 5, even though I mistyped.

People who know me well, and dig into me, are often eventually surprised to say "holy shit... that is a SERIOUS 5 theme in you." (When I'm just talking about myself, not making a 5 case.) It's unmissable to those who know me well. Just like it was unmissable to me, when I knew myself well at 21 in the midst of trauma - despite not being the whole picture.

Most people like to tell me I glamorized types, but truthfully, I INSISTED I was a 3, on a thread where some people were insisting I was a 4, 7, or 8.. which are all "cooler" types than 3 by forum standard apparently. I insisted on 3 because I thought it was correct.. for about 2 weeks.  

I have written many posts about this on this thread, but outside the context of enneagram, nobody would call me un-selfaware. Yeah, I have blind spots about myself as I am human.. but part of my confusion about boiling it down to one type, comes from being aware of various aspects of myself, and not shutting out the others.


I know this post wasn't directed at me. In no way did I imagine it was, especially since I am 33 years old.  But I am just brigning myself up as an example because I know, first hand, that mistypes that might seem stupid from the outside, are not always a result of "derping" or glamorizing types. And I think that is important for typers to keep in mind, and not automatically assume someone's process isn't deep or respectable or genuine, just because there is a disagreement about type.

Asking someone why they see that type in themselves, will often help them to bring to light what is wrong with it. Simply telling them "look, being a 5 isn't about being smart" is just going to belittle them and make them feel like I don't get them or I am not respecting their process or personal depth.

Also, when people see experienced members talking about mistypes who "derped" their way into typings, it might make them feel afraid to come out and show their new typing. They might worry, "what if people think I'm shallow or I don't know myself?" So it doesn't encourage people to be more honest, to belittle the mistype process in general. A lot of people come to forum who are suffering irl and find solace here, and want to figure things out. Their early conclusions might be deep and based in real reasoning, but eventually might give way to deeper conclusions.


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> There are some assumptions here.
> Some people mistype for genuine reasons. Even if they mistype at 5, 4, or 8, it's not always for stupid reasons.
> I mistyped at 5, which is lolzy, but I didn't "derp" my way into that typing, even at age 21, in the midst of a trauma. I had very real reasons to do it. I listed about 1/2000th of them on this thread, here:
> [snip]


I understand that, but that wasn't the context of my reply. @-Alpha-, I assumed, was talking about why people mistype for "feel-good" reasons, which to me relates to mistyping for superficial reasons. Genuinely mistyping is a completely different context and is one much more understandable; there's a huge difference between "I'm a 5 because I read a lot" and "I'm a 5 because (I think) I crave control through knowledge." Oftentimes it's fairly easy to tell the difference between the people who "derp" and the people who truly want to know more about theory. And I fully encourage the latter group, but the former group is more than a bit annoying and "deserving" of denouncement. (Then again I'm somewhat impatient, so I realize there's others who are all like "BUT WE SHOULD ENLIGHTEN THEM" whereas I'm mostly "meh they're not worth the time [with some exceptions]." I'm not saying my way or their way is better, just trying to explain my side a bit.)


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> I understand that, but that wasn't the context of my reply. @_-Alpha-_, I assumed, was talking about why people mistype for "feel-good" reasons, which to me relates to mistyping for superficial reasons. Genuinely mistyping is a completely different context and is one much more understandable; there's a huge difference between "I'm a 5 because I read a lot" and "I'm a 5 because (I think) I crave control through knowledge." Oftentimes it's fairly easy to tell the difference between the people who "derp" and the people who truly want to know more about theory. And I fully encourage the latter group, but the former group is more than a bit annoying and "deserving" of denouncement. (Then again I'm somewhat impatient, so I realize there's others who are all like "BUT WE SHOULD ENLIGHTEN THEM" whereas I'm mostly "meh they're not worth the time [with some exceptions]." I'm not saying my way or their way is better, just trying to explain my side a bit.)


Haha. Gotcha. 

Yeah, sorry if I'm a bit defensive about this topic. I just had so many people being _incredibly mean_ to me on the 8 forum that it makes my porcupine quills go up. I mean - I was frequently being insulted on a personal level, not just about my typing or whatever. I realize that typing was wrong, and I never defended my "typing" but rather got into spats about theory etc.. - and some people had respectable spats, told me why I was wrong in terms of theory, and in those cases, I have no complaints, no problem. But deep, personal insults were spouted by some people, and it was overlooked by the general population.. because it happened to be on the 8 forum, which is a "cool type," and I happened to be wrong about my type.

I know I was wrong. I laugh at my own idiocy on some fronts, sometimes. But in other ways, the typing, and working through it, has helped me grow. I know that you know this about me.  But just to state in general, I too can see the humor in my own past errors and continue to see the humor in current errors (like just yesterday, I had a laugh with someone on skype about my error in judgement about myself re: the recent 3-wing debaucle).

So I'm not claiming I was perfect. I'm just over-sensitive about this assumption on behalf of others I suppose, because it was used as a pretext for members to insult me on a personal level, and that was socially acceptable due to the fact that my mistype happened to be 8, and most of the forum presumed my motives for mistyping at 8 were the same as "ates."


All that being said..despite my sensitivities and personal experience (inf-Si be damned!) .. I understand this. There are definitely people touting a type-label because its strong/smart/unique etc. I will not deny it. 


_____

Yesterday, a friend on skype was suggesting that along with 7 - whether its my type or tritype- I clearly have a 6 wing and there isn't an 8 wing case. This was my response:

Animal: btw, just one quick thing about my type - if its 7, or even 7 fix - you won't see me making a 7w8 case. i did question it for the sake of intellectual integrity but i DO NOT WANT to be like my father so my only emotional acceptance will come from not having his wing. you'll see. if i type at 7, i know myself and i will end up showing off my 6 wing.
Animal: 
Animal: i'll be like hey bitchez i got a 6 wing
Animal: look at it sparkle
Animal: 



But the presumption is often there that I would tout "wing 8" or "Sx-4" because it's cool or I derped my way into thinking 8 is strong or 4s are deep emotional authentic artists - however this particular line of thinking does not apply to me, and yet the first assumption on forum, is that it does. In so many ways, I continue to be questioned and prodded about "cool types" and "shallow reasons" because of my particular mistype history and it's starting to get old. 

I understand the complaints about some people though. Its just ugh. I wish it could be taken at face value [by the community at large] that people genuinely want to learn, until proven otherwise. My idealism..


----------



## Entropic

Necrophilous said:


> To the standards of a consensus, introverts are more likely to mistype themselves because they are more likely to use their own style of evaluating. Even if they are irrationals.


You can make an equal argument that extroverts are likely to mistype themselves because they are more concerned about adhering to standard consensus rather than seeking internal evaluation of who they are. 

Seen this a lot in Fe types for example.


----------



## Animal

Vergil said:


> How do you realize whether or not you like something? You try it.


Hahah. This is not necessarily the case. ^_^

For me, I don't like something just because I don't like it.

I sometimes have this conversation:

ENTP (my father) : Do you want some cheez-its?
Me: No. I don't like them.
ENTP: Have you ever tried them?
Me: No.
ENTP: Well how can you know if-
Me: I don't want .
ENTP:


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> ENTP:


Sounds about right


----------



## Arya

Animal said:


> Hahah. This is not necessarily the case. ^_^
> 
> For me, I don't like something just because I don't like it.
> 
> I sometimes have this conversation:
> 
> ENTP (my father) : Do you want some cheez-its?
> Me: No. I don't like them.
> ENTP: Have you ever tried them?
> Me: No.
> ENTP: Well how can you know if-
> Me: I don't want .
> ENTP:


My response would be along the lines of "Anything with that name can be deduced to have terrible ingredients so no."


----------



## Bricolage

-Ephemeral- said:


> You can make an equal argument that extroverts are likely to mistype themselves because they are more concerned about adhering to standard consensus rather than seeking internal evaluation of who they are.
> 
> Seen this a lot in Fe types for example.


Standard consensus hunting is more So-dom in enneagram; Fe-dom aren't all consensus-whipped, mainstream society hive-minded idiots. 

An extravert in MBTI would use any external barometer - a Te-dom using or averaging test results and so forth. It doesn't need to involve consensus or even people.


----------



## -Alpha-

Bricolage said:


> Standard consensus hunting is more So-dom in enneagram; Fe-dom aren't all consensus-whipped, mainstream society hive-minded idiots.
> 
> An extravert in MBTI would use any external barometer - a Te-dom using or averaging test results and so forth. It doesn't need to involve consensus or even people.


Speculation: My attitude socially is more like "control their reactions so I can validate my ability to shape my circumstances in the world and feel vindicated in manipulating their shallowness to my advantage". I would only seek general consensus as a tool to leverage my rightness, indifferent to whether or not I was actually right. Use of that would be extremely circumstantial, personally.

Appeal to outward sources such as other people seems as "General consensus" as it gets. Once you bring in an outward source, it becomes a consensus between you and [object]. I'm not sure how there's a misunderstanding about the meaning of the post.


----------



## drmiller100

Animal said:


> T
> Asking someone why they see that type in themselves, will often help them to bring to light what is wrong with it. Simply telling them "look, being a 5 isn't about being smart" is just going to belittle them and make them feel like I don't get them or I am not respecting their process or personal depth.
> 
> ....
> So it doesn't encourage people to be more honest, to belittle the mistype process in general. A lot of people come to forum who are suffering irl and find solace here, and want to figure things out. Their early conclusions might be deep and based in real reasoning, but eventually might give way to deeper conclusions.


Truth.

Further truth is if someone were to attack me and try shame me, my natural inclination is to explode back. The best defense is a nuclear holocaust. For others the best defense is something else entirely, but for no one is the best defense more vulnerability.

If we want to truly help people, we need to create an environment which rewards exploration, examination, and mistakes.


----------



## Entropic

Bricolage said:


> Standard consensus hunting is more So-dom in enneagram; Fe-dom aren't all consensus-whipped, mainstream society hive-minded idiots.
> 
> An extravert in MBTI would use any external barometer - a Te-dom using or averaging test results and so forth. It doesn't need to involve consensus or even people.


If you have an issue with the word "standard consensus" perhaps you should really ask @Necrophilous what they meant instead of nitpicking a phrase I simply ran with in order to exemplify the extroverted attitude of the extroverted type in how they naturally seek to align themselves with the object world which in the case of say, an Fe dom that I mentioned here, may for example turn into over-identification with type descriptions because they exemplify objective over subjective cognitive qualities. Now, that wasn't so difficult to understand was it? If you want to interpret "standard consensus" as being equal to status quo be my guest, but that was certainly not the way I personally fucking intended the phrase. 

Next time perhaps ask me wtf I mean first merely than simply assuming and get it wrong. Pay attention to the context. It fucking matters.


----------



## drmiller100

-Ephemeral- said:


> Next time perhaps ask me .......


Eph, you had choices here. You could have communicated your position for clarification in a nice, friendly way and built rapport. You could have asked for clarification from Brilo like you asked him/her to.

this has been a great discussion lately, and I enjoy your comments.


----------



## Doll

Aha said:


> Its not like seeing a unicorn :bored:. There are hundreds of millions of 8s and you, by walking a street, will meet at least a lot of them. Majestic description of a super-die-hard-leaders is a far exaggeration for majority of the bunch.


Psh, that's not what I meant at all. I'd recognize a unicorn if I saw one. I don't think of 8s as majestic or rare. The point I was trying to make is that ATES are so super obvious that actual 8s are like little ants creeping by on the sidewalk (I know ants aren't badass, so sorry to any ATES I've offended with this comparison).


----------



## Kintsugi

drmiller100 said:


> Eph, you had choices here. You could have communicated your position for clarification in a nice, friendly way and built rapport. You could have asked for clarification from Brilo like you asked him/her to.


Dude, He doesn't value Fe. I get what you're saying, but it's pretty much lost on an INTJ/ILI. 

Sometimes I feel like half the issues and conflict here can be best explained by Socionics, more than anything else.


----------



## Entropic

drmiller100 said:


> Eph, you had choices here. You could have communicated your position for clarification in a nice, friendly way and built rapport. You could have asked for clarification from Brilo like you asked him/her to.
> 
> this has been a great discussion lately, and I enjoy your comments.


I could have but I chose not to. Part of the reason why is that I got increasingly angry as I wrote that post and I figured that I honestly have no interest in seeking consensus with him. Chances are, especially knowing how he argues himself, that he'll find something else to nitpick and please tell me then why I should spend time on that? Nah. Not interested. I rather state my point and opinion clearly and leave it there.


----------



## Entropic

Kintsugi said:


> Dude, He doesn't value Fe. I get what you're saying, but it's pretty much lost on an INTJ/ILI.
> 
> Sometimes I feel like half the issues and conflict here can be best explained by Socionics, more than anything else.


There's a reason socionics is my favorite theory out the three.


----------



## Kintsugi

-Ephemeral- said:


> There's a reason socionics is my favorite theory out the three.


I hear ya. 

I feel like the best way to tackle what I believe is the biggest issue (refer to quote in my signature); is through first of all examining perception through a system like Socionics. It's the more superior system I have found so far that attempts to explain the different "lenses" we see through, in terms of typology.


----------



## Entropic

Doll said:


> Psh, that's not what I meant at all. I'd recognize a unicorn if I saw one. I don't think of 8s as majestic or rare. The point I was trying to make is that ATES are so super obvious that actual 8s are like little ants creeping by on the sidewalk (I know ants aren't badass, so sorry to any ATES I've offended with this comparison).


So tired of this "ate" stuff. You say you can recognize an 8 from a mistype but I really wonder if you can. Can you always see what's motivating people in the depths of their hearts just by seeing some superficial shallow aspect of them without getting to know them in depth? 

It's plainly arrogant to claim that you can. I bet there are plenty of 8s out there you wouldn't immediately recognize them as such simply because they are people and cannot be reduced to a type caricature. 

The greatest arrogance of all is to claim that people are "ates" as if it's the greatest type offense one can make in the enneagram system. If you clearly don't place 8s on a pedestal you wouldn't separate 8s and "ates". There are 8 and mistypes as with every other type. When you create categories of worth you are clearly expressing that one has more value over the other and that is very much making it seem special to be 8 over an "ate".


----------



## Kintsugi

-Ephemeral- said:


> Can you always see what's motivating people in the depths of their hearts just by seeing some superficial shallow aspect of them without getting to know them in depth?


Very true. Anyone who claims that they know me better than I know myself, without first having attempted to really get to _know_ me, can fuck right off, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

-Ephemeral- said:


> The greatest arrogance of all is to claim that people are "ates" as if it's the greatest type offense one can make in the enneagram system. If you clearly don't place 8s on a pedestal you wouldn't separate 8s and "ates". There are 8 and mistypes as with every other type. When you create categories of worth you are clearly expressing that one has more value over the other and that is very much making it seem special to be 8 over an "ate".


I figured it was more to mock those who do put it on a pedestal. Like "yeah, you sure is a special ATE." To separate them from those who mistype for more honest reason.

Guess you could question why not do that for other "cool" mistypes, but heh. Maybe because "ates" have been more notorious.


----------



## Sina

not everyone who mistypes at 8 is an "ate". this has been said to death. any mature individual, regardless of type (so no actual 8s don't have to be held on a pedestal), is 'superior' to the ate by virtue of the "ate" being a juvenile shit stirring dumbass (many "ates" have been banned and several infracted for a reason :3 ) or a deluded fool who needs to tell tall tales of their 'badassery' and then cry wolf after such antics get laughed at for the buffoonery they are.

sincere mistypes or those who don't stir shit or act like tools don't get flack for being "ates". many are mistyped on the 8 forum, like other forums, and only a select get the coveted "ate" title. 

@_Kink_

exactly. 

it's "ates" who put 8s on a pedestal. if that weren't the case, they wouldn't be losing their shit over nothing and sure as hell wouldn't be reinforcing their impressions as wannabe tryhards by blowing the most ridiculous nonsense out their ass, supposedly designed to emphasize they are hardass enough to be an 8. that's enough to show who glorifies what and who doesn't. :3

most of enneagram forum drama comes from the 8 forum thanks to these notorious "ates". this has continued, despite the whole no unsolicited typing thingy , which makes it obvious they need lil to no reason to fly off the handle and make asses of themselves or stir other types of drama.


----------



## Doll

-Ephemeral- said:


> So tired of this "ate" stuff. You say you can recognize an 8 from a mistype but I really wonder if you can. Can you always see what's motivating people in the depths of their hearts just by seeing some superficial shallow aspect of them without getting to know them in depth?


Wow, where did this come from? My post was a joke. Chillax.

No, obviously, you can't know a person's "depth" on a forum. But there's a lot you can know. Responses that are super defensive and perceiving attacks that weren't even there (I'm not going to be passive-aggressive, this kind of just happened), as well as content, reactions, and perspectives tell you a hell of a lot about a person. I don't have to stare you in the eyes to know what your true type is. That said, no, I don't know what your true type is, and I'm a bit baffled how this turned around and is now about you. I wasn't even addressing you.



> It's plainly arrogant to claim that you can.


lol didn't claim this.



> I bet there are plenty of 8s out there you wouldn't immediately recognize them as such simply because they are people and cannot be reduced to a type caricature.


I just said that I might not be able to recognize an 8. Please reread my post. Or figure out what an ATE means, because ATES are blindingly obvious. Are you an ATE? Idk. So back the fuck off and go about your day. In plainer English: This was not about you. NOT ABOUT YOU. THIS. WAS. NOT. About. 

YOU.



> The greatest arrogance of all is to claim that people are "ates" as if it's the greatest type offense one can make in the enneagram system. If you clearly don't place 8s on a pedestal you wouldn't separate 8s and "ates".


I personally have tongue in cheek names for _all_ enneagram types, but thank you for clumping me into a group that obviously pissed in your cheerios this morning.



> There are 8 and mistypes as with every other type. When you create categories of worth you are clearly expressing that one has more value over the other and that is very much making it seem special to be 8 over an "ate".


Please see above.

The only reason the ATE is a more commonly used name around these parts is because they are, by and large, the most vocal (...this thread is not helping) and the most easily baited. It has nothing to do with glorifying the type. It's more to do with the laughable way people on PerC are more prone to glorifying that type. Other types are also glorified and (at least for me) they have their own names.

So back the fuck off. 

kthnx.


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> sincere mistypes or those who don't stir shit or act like tools don't get flack for being "ates". many are mistyped on the 8 forum, like other forums, and only a select get the coveted "ate" title.


Sincere mistypes don't get flack from you because you are a sincere, mature, honorable and genuine person who can tell the difference between sincerity and bullshit 'shit-stirring' and bloating.

However, you and I both caught flack we didn't deserve for mistyping at 8. 



I'm not "taking sides" - I don't think there's anything wrong with making fun of "ates" because it is a trend. It's just that some people used the whole "ate" fiasco as an excuse to have their lackeys bulldoze & mock me as a group, relentlessly - and bulldoze & mock other 8s or 8 mistypes who I was getting along with as well - and I was never an ate, a shit-stirrer or anything. I've never even been infracted..roud:

The reason this might not be "known" about me is that I don't call attention to this and ask others to defend me. For the most part I just handle it and shrug it off. (Though I was admittedly upset when my _character_ was blatantly insulted by multiple people with the guise of 8 mistype as an excuse to do so.) But regardless of the fact that the majority of it - barring repeated personal insults - did not upset me, it did happen. 

But there are people who do get affected by it - younger people than me, suffering people, insecure people, people going through a hard time etc. It's not right, even if the majority of it registered to me as "ohh, they pay me so much attention and post-stalk me! they rip me up every chance they get and put so much energy into proving im mistyped! how flattering! :crazy:"


----------



## Kintsugi

Kink said:


> I figured it was more to mock those who do put it on a pedestal. Like "yeah, you sure is a special ATE." To separate them from those who mistype for more honest reason.
> 
> Guess you could question why not do that for other "cool" mistypes, but heh. Maybe because "ates" have been more notorious.


To be fair though, it's not just those who "mistype" as 8, that put the type on a pedestal. 

I personally think this is just as much of an issue with CP6, but that's an all-together different issue. *shrugs*


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Kintsugi said:


> To be fair though, it's not just those who "mistype" as 8, that put the type on a pedestal.


I'm sure there are other people who do it as well, but I don't think that's what the Ate thing is about.

As for CP6, I think I've seen more mixed feels about that one.


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> Sincere mistypes don't get flack from you because you are a sincere, mature, honorable and genuine person who can tell the difference between sincerity and bullshit 'shit-stirring' and bloating.
> 
> However, you and I both caught flack we didn't deserve for mistyping at 8.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not "taking sides" - I don't think there's anything wrong with making fun of "ates" because it is a trend. It's just that some people used the whole "ate" fiasco as an excuse to have their lackeys bulldoze & mock me as a group, relentlessly - and bulldoze & mock other 8s or 8 mistypes who I was getting along with as well - and I was never an ate, a shit-stirrer or anything. I've never even been infracted..roud:


No you're absolutely right. Back then things were very different, but even after you joined, I saw that you dealt with crap as well though fortunately not the kind those before you had. The people who perpetrated that shit had been banned from here. We've both been mistreated over typing at 8, but not because we were considered "ates". 

I can't imagine anyone calling you an "Ate", and honestly I don't think you caught flack because of "ateness". It's why I said sincere mistypes tend not to catch flack for being ates, but it's clear that a few have caught flack despite their sincerity even after things had apparently changed here. I obviously think that's utter bullshit and should not happen, particularly on a forum geared towards self-awareness and self-improvement, where most people make themselves vulnerable in various ways. It's unacceptable to piss on that, and it's a matter of integrity to me that genuine vulnerability not be run over by retards.

And no, people who were here are privy to the drama. So, it is definitely "known". Oh and lol yes the "Ate" thing gets brought up precisely because it is an established trend. XD


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Doll said:


> I personally have tongue in cheek names for _all_ enneagram types


Ok, now I'm curious. >_>


----------



## Doll

Kink said:


> Ok, now I'm curious. >_>


Won, Too, Thwee, Fore, Fahv, Syx, Sevun, Ate, Nein


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> No you're absolutely right. Back then things were very different, but even after you joined, I saw that you dealt with crap as well though fortunately not the kind those before you had. The people who perpetrated that shit had been banned from here. We've both been mistreated over typing at 8, but not because we were considered "ates".
> 
> I can't imagine anyone calling you an "Ate", and honestly I don't think you caught flack because of "ateness". It's why I said sincere mistypes tend not to catch flack for being ates, but it's clear that a few have caught flack despite their sincerity even after things had apparently changed here. I obviously think that's utter bullshit and should not happen, particularly on a forum geared towards self-awareness and self-improvement, where most people make themselves vulnerable in various ways. It's unacceptable to piss on that, and it's a matter of integrity to me that genuine vulnerability not be run over by retards.
> 
> And no, people who were here are privy to the drama. So, it is definitely "known". Oh and lol yes the "Ate" thing gets brought up precisely because it is an established trend. XD


This is a good point. I wasn't accused of being an *ate*, even by those who repeatedly flattered my ego by following my posts and nipticking them to death to find reasons why I can't be an 8 such as "youre not strong enough/ not cool enough/ not powerful enough / if you react to this youre not an 8/ if you don't react youre not an 8" ... hahahah. So attentive and obsessive to follow me all over the 8 sub-forum.. these people.


The "ate" trend makes the line between "mocking those who deserve it" and "mocking honest mistypes" very blurry however, whether someone is directly accused of "ateness" or not. The mistype itself is so odious forum-wide that mocking these people becomes a trend. And then people around the forum fail to notice the difference between type-suggestions and blatant rudeness and cruelty.


----------



## Kintsugi

Kink said:


> I'm sure there are other people who do it as well, but I don't think that's what the Ate thing is about.
> 
> As for CP6, I think I've seen more mixed feels about that one.


The term "ate" has been reduced to a mere buzzword, imo. I personally just can't take it seriously.


----------



## -Alpha-

Doll said:


> Won, Too, Thwee, Fore, Fahv, Syx, Sevun, Ate, Nein


I am changing my signature right now...


----------



## Doll

Kintsugi said:


> The term "ate" has been reduced to a mere buzzword, imo. I personally just can't take it seriously.


Honestly, I'm surprised when people _do_ take it seriously.



-Alpha- said:


> I am changing my signature right now...


BE CAREFUL. It's SRS BSNS.


----------



## Kintsugi

Doll said:


> Honestly, I'm surprised when people _do_ take it seriously.


Not everyone is part of the "in-crowd". In-jokes can be lost on us mere classroom loners. Take pity on us wretched souls, for we are not worthy.

And on that note, I need to go to bed.


----------



## Doll

Kintsugi said:


> Not everyone is part of the "in-crowd". In-jokes can be lost on us mere classroom loners. Take pity on us wretched souls, for we are not worthy.
> 
> And on that note, I need to go to bed.


There's an in-crowd on PerC? ? Well, I'm definitely not part of it, wherever it is... or are you joking? Dang it all, I'm all thrown off now.


----------



## Kintsugi

Doll said:


> There's an in-crowd on PerC? ? Well, I'm definitely not part of it, wherever it is... or are you joking? Dang it all, I'm all thrown off now.


That's how I roll. I'm all smokes and mirrors see; and then I attack, in the dead of night - when you're least expecting it. :ninja:

Seriously, though. I'm going. Goodnight. ^_^


----------



## Doll

Kintsugi said:


> That's how I roll. I'm all smokes and mirrors see; and then I attack, in the dead of night - when you're least expecting it. :ninja:


DundunDUN.

:ninja:


----------



## Animal

I _am_ the in-crowd.

I Alone.


But you outsiders are too.. too... _outside_ the in-circle... to see it.

roud:


----------



## Sina

Doll said:


> Honestly, I'm surprised when people _do_ take it seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> BE CAREFUL. It's SRS BSNS.



Lmfao @ taking "ate" _seriously_. :laughing: That completely fuckin misses the point.



Animal said:


> The "ate" trend makes the line between "mocking those who deserve it" and "mocking honest mistypes" very blurry however, whether someone is directly accused of "ateness" or not. The mistype itself is so odious forum-wide that mocking these people becomes a trend. And then people around the forum fail to notice the difference between type-suggestions and blatant rudeness and cruelty.


No, I don't think it does except for the totally moronic. I, personally, have had no trouble ever distinguishing a loud blustery bumbling idiot or shit starter from a sincere mistype minding their own business. 

To misuse this term or any other fabricated excuse to shit on mature mistypes is garbage, though I don't find the misuse of the term widespread or endemic. Just earlier, more than one person suggested @_Aha_ might be a 7 but was NO ate.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Doll said:


> There's an in-crowd on PerC? ? Well, I'm definitely not part of it, wherever it is... or are you joking? Dang it all, I'm all thrown off now.


Guuuurl, stick with me, I'll hook you up. :wink:


----------



## Doll

kaleidoscope said:


> Guuuurl, stick with me, I'll hook you up. :wink:


And to all the haters out there, well...


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> No, I don't think it does except for the totally moronic. I, personally, have had no trouble ever distinguishing a loud blustery bumbling idiot or shit starter from a sincere mistype minding their own business.
> 
> To misuse this term or any other fabricated excuse to shit on sincere mistypes is garbage, though I don't find the misuse of the term widespread or endemic. Just earlier, more than one person suggested @_Aha_ might be a 7 but was NO ate.


This is the way I see it with me: my personal issues on the 8 forum were not about typing at 8. There were people who were just looking for an excuse to insult me anyway, and being on the 8 forum gave them a platform to insult me and instead of being told by lots of people "dude, wtf is wrong with you" they ended up getting "thanks" for insulting me, from others who did not mean to insult me but agreed that I was mistyped. This egged them on. That is why it was a systemic problem with the "ate' issue that came to affect me, but otherwise it didn't.


----------



## kaleidoscope

[No message]


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> This is the way I see it with me: my personal issues on the 8 forum were not about typing at 8. There were people who were just looking for an excuse to insult me anyway, and being on the 8 forum gave them a platform to insult me and instead of being told by lots of people "dude, wtf is wrong with you" they ended up getting "thanks" for insulting me, from others who did not mean to insult me but agreed that I was mistyped. This egged them on. That is why it was a systemic problem with the "ate' issue that came to affect me, but otherwise it didn't.


Well, since you weren't considered an ate at all and you accept that yourself, I don't see how the ate thing affected you.



kaleidoscope said:


> This is the most hypocritical post I've ever seen. And you know what's so hilarious? People have been posting about ATES for pages now, but you carefully chose who to quote on this. Other users would make a fool out of you in response (I will never forget @_Aha_'s gifs) but quite truthfully, I think that happened either way.


PRettty much. 



> Said by the person who resorted to acting stereotypically 'badass' and pissy the second they changed from 9 fixed and conflict phobic to 8 fixed/core.


Exactly :3


*let the ham-fisted whiteknighting and attention whoring begin, yanno after the '8' (who needs to talk of sad lil infractions, dominating internet forums and making people 'banned' to prove his ateness...so much for putting 8 on a pedestal) stirred the shitpot yet again of his own accord*


----------



## kaleidoscope

Doll said:


> Wow, where did this come from? My post was a joke. Chillax.
> 
> No, obviously, you can't know a person's "depth" on a forum. But there's a lot you can know. Responses that are super defensive and perceiving attacks that weren't even there (I'm not going to be passive-aggressive, this kind of just happened), as well as content, reactions, and perspectives tell you a hell of a lot about a person. I don't have to stare you in the eyes to know what your true type is. That said, no, I don't know what your true type is, and I'm a bit baffled how this turned around and is now about you. I wasn't even addressing you.
> 
> 
> 
> lol didn't claim this.
> 
> 
> 
> I just said that I might not be able to recognize an 8. Please reread my post. Or figure out what an ATE means, because ATES are blindingly obvious. Are you an ATE? Idk. So back the fuck off and go about your day. In plainer English: This was not about you. NOT ABOUT YOU. THIS. WAS. NOT. About.
> 
> YOU.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally have tongue in cheek names for _all_ enneagram types, but thank you for clumping me into a group that obviously pissed in your cheerios this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> Please see above.
> 
> The only reason the ATE is a more commonly used name around these parts is because they are, by and large, the most vocal (...this thread is not helping) and the most easily baited. It has nothing to do with glorifying the type. It's more to do with the laughable way people on PerC are more prone to glorifying that type. Other types are also glorified and (at least for me) they have their own names.
> 
> So back the fuck off.
> 
> kthnx.


This post. Perfection. Yes. <3


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Well, since you weren't considered an ate at all and you accept that yourself, I don't see the ate thing affected you.


The forum-wide hating on 8 mistypes and seeing some of them as something to mock, affected me, regardless of the word "ate." Because it affected the responses people would have to this mockery. In that sense I believe it affected you on your typing thread too. It's not that you were an 'ate' or called an 'ate' (or were you? i don't know, I wasnt there) .. but its the fact that the very idea of mistyping at 8 became something that it's "okay" in the eyes of others, to mock - and thus nobody would stand up and call these idiots out on their shit-stirring AT ME, simply because I was mistyped at 8. Had I been mistyped at another number and picked on as such, I am sure others would come out and say "wtf" in a similar incident - and actually this has happened.

It doesn't matter to me personally whether I am defended or not - this does not take away from the initial mockery nor does it make me more "hurt" Being insulted by one person is actually more hurtful than being "ganged up on," to me, because groupthink just makes them look so weak and takes the meaning out of any point that the followers might have hoped to make. Nevertheless I am simply acknowledging that it happened that way, and it has never happened that way on any other sub-forum for any other mistype. Those who wish to mock me need to be much more clever about it if I', not typed at 8, because others will not egg them on, but will instead tell them to cut it out, and people like that are usually alert to their reputation ^_^


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Doll said:


> Won, Too, Thwee, Fore, Fahv, Syx, Sevun, Ate, Nein


Waaaaaaaait...

Please tell me you have stories about these "Wons", "Fores", "Syxes" and "Neins". XD


----------



## kaleidoscope

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> *let the ham-fisted whiteknighting and attention whoring begin, yanno after the '8' (who needs to talk of dominating internet forums and making people 'banned' to prove his ateness...so much for putting 8 on a pedestal) stirred the shitpot yet again of his own accord*


Prediction: Ephemeral will not respond, someone will swoop in to defend him, and then he'll show up again a few weeks later, hoping it's all forgotten and he can go back to being pissy. 

I'll even bet at this point. :crazy:


----------



## Watercolourful

...currently typing at 7w6 4wX 1w2 or 1-fix first, not sure yet. Any feedback's appreciated


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> Prediction: Ephemeral will not respond, someone will swoop in to defend him, and then he'll show up again a few weeks later, hoping it's all forgotten and he can go back to being pissy.
> 
> I'll even bet at this point. :crazy:


Nice pre-meditated defense there.
This way if someone else "swoops in" to defend him they have already dug themselves AND ephem into a hole, and you are thus above retaliation.

Very clever! Seriously. that's like internet-debaucle 101 right there.  love the technique.

The pre-meditated defense strategy is indeed impressive. Not easy to poke holes in, unless you see through the whole strategy.


----------



## Sina

justanotherperson said:


> ...currently typing at 7w6 4wX 1w2 or 1-fix first, not sure yet. Any feedback's appreciated


Try and do a questionnaire, and link it here. 
@_Animal_

While the term was in vogue then, no I was not addressed by it. The fact that mistyping at 8 catches flack more than any other mistyping is a whole another can of worms. Some of it is because of ates, the rest is because people from private forums where 8 is glorified once populated this forum, and it was common there to take anyone typing at 8 'down a peg'. 

While they've long left, the attitude remains and not just on Perc but other fora as well. The now "unstickied" common reasons for mistyping thread which basically said (i quote), " if you think you are an 8, you're likely not because an 8 is a very strong and rare type, you're probably clinging to the label because you're afraid and it brings you comfort" is the perfect example. This is tied in with the shitting on 6s, and the assumption that only unhealthy 6s would type at 8 because they are fearful and need something to fix it. It's why 8 mistypes were rarely suggested types other than 6, and many 7s, 1s and 3s etc. were "sixed" over it using it as an ad hominem which, beyond the whole typist deal, is just fuckin ridiculous.. This part has changed a lot. Though yeah, I know that mistyping at 8 is always made out to be something shameful and garners way more attention than it should. Anyway, I am getting bored of this bahaha. But, you get my point. 


Your experiences still have nothing to do with the Ate deal.

P.S. I don't see how the above is a 'premeditated' defense, when anyone with eyes can see this a a clear trend with ephem running off and other people coming in and derailing threads for pages on end in his 'defense'. Many people here have seen it over and over. :3 It's become a fuckin cliche.


----------



## Doll

kaleidoscope said:


> This is the most hypocritical post I've ever seen. And you know what's so hilarious? People have been posting about ATES for pages now, *but you carefully chose who to quote on this*. Other users would make a fool out of you in response (I will never forget @_Aha_'s gifs) but quite truthfully, I think that happened either way.


Seriously. Why me, of all people? Because that person thought I'd just roll over? My gut fix might be 9, but don't get personal on me.



> Said by the person who resorted to acting stereotypically 'badass' and pissy the second they changed from 9 fixed and conflict phobic to 8 fixed/core.


lols. And FORGET the complications of types. I'm sure my response automatically means I must be an 8. Remind me never to ask for typing advice from the great empherwhatever.



kaleidoscope said:


> This post. Perfection. Yes. <3


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> Reading too much into it? I find it absolutely fascinating that you are so eager to engage in this with me and not your friends, who are saying the same exact thing.
> 
> Here, I'll make it really easy for you:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you even see that comment by Cosmic? But of course, you have absolutely no response to it. I'm personally leaning towards this being a lapdog moment on your part, but I'll let you respond.
> 
> It just drives me crazy how you jump on the opportunity to criticize me for something, yet turning a blind eye when your own people do it. And I would like this to address this once and for all, because fuck, I'm getting tired of double standards.


"My people"(or any other people) have not done the same things to me that you have done. This has allowed me to see a different side of you.
@_Promethea_, do we still have access to that mistype thread in which I was ruthlessly slandered by @_kaleidoscope_ and about 4 other people, calling me names, belittling my traumas, ripping me to pieces for no reason, all under the pretext of type 8?

@_kaleidoscope_, my response to your post was not about ephem. It was about your technique that you often use. You shape posts so that any possible defense puts the other person into a position where they can't possibly avoid the names you have already called them and the motives you have already attributed to them. This discourages opposition.

I don't interfere with what happens with @-Ephemeral-@ and no, I have not responded to anyone else attacking him. I responded to you because of the way in which I see you behaving, over and over and over. 

You pose as an authority on type 4, even going so far as to tell people on type threads that if they don't agree with YOUR posts, they're not a 4. 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-tritype-you-know-you-want-2.html#post4196305


Who made you the authority on 4? Who says you're necessarily a 4 anyway? Why is this the gold standard? In those posts you linked, you mostly paraphrased descriptions from books, and on some, you said stuff that was more attributable to other types than 4. There was no reason why a core 4 should agree with those, besides perhaps the descriptions provided (in which case you could have linked them to an actual description instead of your paraphrase of that description).

It is indeed arrogant to link someone to a type saying, do you relate to these?? Ive seen you do it elsewhere too. Very authoratative and possessive over that typing, and being a symbol of it. 

This sets you up so that you are, again, "beyond reproach." No one questions your 4 typing because you, alone, have dictated WHAT A 4 IS since you've been on Perc. And at this point, those ideas are so deeply entrenched in the community that people actually don't know what a 4 is at all.

You talk down to people who argue about things and say "this IS or ISNT 4." As if you know better, as the 4 you are. You paraphrase the texts that fit you and discard the ones that don't. Yet in a way, you gate-keep that forum and make authoratative declarations about what a 4 IS.

You're often picking on someone or other, and making a strong argument about it. Yet the people you "pick on" are often widely hated - so you are able to get thanks and praise for "speaking truth." It's great if you speak truth, and I have thanked and appreciated many of your posts myself. But I was not interested in whether it was true or not. At this point, I'm more interested in why so many people regard you as the authority on type 4 (or on anything for that matter). Your presentation on forum as an authority is very un-4like, and that's been blatant to me from day one. So I have been wondering - why do people refrain from making cases on the mistype thread about your type? I know for sure that many disagree, but the case has not been made yet. I will make that case myself, perhaps tomorrow.

Your authoritative nature and the arrogance to use yourself solely as a 4 example and welcome and thank people on the forum who you "relate to" in order to tell them OMG we are both SUCH 4s... and spread your idea about 4 which is often unrelated to what 4 is about... is what bothers me. And I see it over and over. And I also see how your posts hint that to refuse you, would be certain social death. 

In that particular post I quoted, whether you intended it as a technique or not, it worked out that way because anyone who wanted to disagree with you was automatically to be labeled as a lapdog for ephem. You were allowed your 'defender' but ephem wasn't. EVERYONE equally deserves to be open for defending, not just you. But your very authoritative and cutting post discourages others from challenging your opinion. But not me. It only made me pause and think, wow.. this might be one of the reasons that someone who POSES AS AN AUTHORITY ON TYPE 4 has never been told "you know, type 4 posing as an authority.. doesn't exactly fit the type description..."


----------



## Ace Face

kaleidoscope said:


> How is it defensive? You have been thanking Animal's posts which I didn't mind, but now you're quoting me mockingly. So I'd rather you just say it, whatever it is.


Mockingly, eh? You're right, I'm singling you out here. I've literally never made a joke in the midst of PerC drama before. Nope... it's never happened...











And I have thanked her posts because she is sharing information with you that I think you need to hear. She has some points. I think you would do well to put down the defense here and listen to what she has to say. From what I've observed from her, she is very honest, forgiving, willing to let things go... I don't think she's legitimately harboring ill will here. But what do I know? I've only been observing her for a couple of years now, just as I've observed you here and there. If you legitimately want feedback from me, I will give you some. I do not, however, hold a very strong opinion of you as I do not know you. All I know is what you've shown me on here, and as @Animal has pointed out, it hasn't necessarily been pretty things. I think there is more to you than what you display, but you've got a wall up... like everyone is out to attack you or something. Put it down and listen. Sometimes, perceived enemies can teach you the greatest lessons. Just let the past go, and listen to what she has to say. That is my advice to you.


----------



## Watercolourful

@kaleidoscope

I don't feel like making a questionnaire right now because it's late so I might do it tomorrow

But this is my old one from before I typed at 7

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=173064

A lot of it is still accurate but some of it has changed because of self-awareness I lacked at the time of writing it that I now have. I'll address that when I do the new questionnaire. This one is still good, though.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> "My people"(or any other people) have not done the same things to me that you have done. This has allowed me to see a different side of you.
> @_Promethea_, do we still have access to that mistype thread in which I was ruthlessly slandered by @_kaleidoscope_ and about 4 other people, calling me names, belittling my traumas, ripping me to pieces for no reason, all under the pretext of type 8?
> 
> @_kaleidoscope_, my response to your post was not about ephem. It was about your technique that you often use. You shape posts so that any possible defense puts the other person into a position where they can't possibly avoid the names you have already called them and the motives you have already attributed to them. This discourages opposition.
> 
> I don't care what happens with Ephem and no, I have not responded to anyone else attacking him. I responded to you because of the way in which I see you behaving, over and over and over.
> 
> You pose as an authority on type 4, even going so far as to tell people on type threads that if they don't agree with YOUR posts, they're not a 4.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-tritype-you-know-you-want-2.html#post4196305
> 
> 
> Who made you the authority on 4? Who says you're necessarily a 4 anyway? Why is this the gold standard? In those posts you linked, you mostly paraphrased descriptions from books, and on some, you said stuff that was more attributable to other types than 4. There was no reason why a core 4 should agree with those, besides perhaps the descriptions provided (in which case you could have linked them to an actual description instead of your paraphrase of that description).
> 
> It is indeed arrogant to link someone to a type saying, do you relate to these?? Ive seen you do it elsewhere too. Very authoratative and possessive over that typing, and being a symbol of it.
> 
> This sets you up so that you are, again, "beyond reproach." No one questions your 4 typing because you, alone, have dictated WHAT A 4 IS since you've been on Perc. And at this point, those ideas are so deeply entrenched in the community that people actually don't know what a 4 is at all.
> 
> You talk down to people who argue about things and say "this IS or ISNT 4." As if you know better, as the 4 you are. You paraphrase the texts that fit you and discard the ones that don't. Yet in a way, you gate-keep that forum and make authoratative declarations about what a 4 IS.
> 
> You're often picking on someone or other, and making a strong argument about it. Yet the people you "pick on" are often widely hated - so you are able to get thanks and praise for "speaking truth." It's great if you speak truth, and I have thanked and appreciated many of your posts myself. But I was not interested in whether it was true or not. At this point, I'm more interested in why so many people regard you as the authority on type 4 (or on anything for that matter). Your presentation on forum as an authority is very un-4like, and that's been blatant to me from day one. So I have been wondering - why do people refrain from making cases on the mistype thread about your type? I know for sure that many disagree, but the case has not been made yet. I will make that case myself, perhaps tomorrow.
> 
> Your authoritative nature and the arrogance to use yourself solely as a 4 example and welcome and thank people on the forum who you "relate to" in order to tell them OMG we are both SUCH 4s... and spread your idea about 4 which is often unrelated to what 4 is about... is what bothers me. And I see it over and over. And I also see how your posts hint that to refuse you, would be certain social death.
> 
> In that particular post I quoted, whether you intended it as a technique or not, it worked out that way because anyone who wanted to disagree with you was automatically to be labeled as a lapdog for ephem. You were allowed your 'defender' but ephem wasn't. EVERYONE equally deserves to be open for defending, not just you. But your very authoritative and cutting post discourages others from challenging your opinion. But not me. It only made me pause and think, wow.. this might be one of the reasons that someone who POSES AS AN AUTHORITY ON TYPE 4 has never been told "you know, type 4 posing as an authority.. doesn't exactly fit the type description..."


99% of this post is pure perception. And I'm not going to argue with that, because it's already pretty subjective. What do you want me to say when you tell me that I 'gate-keep' the forum? I haven't been part of typing in over a year, so what exactly are you hoping to achieve with this anyway? 

To be clear, I quote others just as much as I quote myself, but I'm not going to go rummaging through year old posts to find evidence of me quoting another 4. Tell me, if everything I've been saying about type 4 has been so off, you'd think ONE person at least would say something to me, like I don't know, Paradigm or Cosmic at the very least. They know their enneagram, and I even think Para's disagreed with me many times when I've misunderstood something. I also trust Cosmic to tell me when I'm way off with my interpretation of a type. I don't think anyone is terrified of me so as not to say anything when I'm spewing bullshit all over a forum. I welcome disagreement, but just because you have been on the receiving end of my explanations doesn't mean shit. That just means your observation is colored by how you think I treated you. 



> And I also see how your posts hint that to refuse you, would be certain social death.


Social death, really? You and I have had so many disagreements over time, and I wouldn't say that affected your social life on here even a little bit.



> So I have been wondering - why do people refrain from making cases on the mistype thread about your type? I know for sure that many disagree, but the case has not been made yet. I will make that case myself, perhaps tomorrow.


I don't recall ever asking you, but you're right, WHY is that?


----------



## Animal

X irrelevant - saw other post


----------



## Arya

kaleidoscope said:


> You know a pattern I've noficed in the past? Ephemeral posting, me responding back, you jumping in and the thread extends far beyond my observation.. and Ephemeral never shows up. Which I think is absolutely hilarious.


So why do you choose to cause the same drama over and over considering you've noticed the pattern? To bait @Animal? Because you love drama? Ephemeral's typing is hardly important enough to cause this much drama over. If you knew that Animal would get baited and upset then you are being emotionally manipulative and a bully.


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> 99% of this post is pure perception. And I'm not going to argue with that, because it's already pretty subjective. What do you want me to say when you tell me that I 'gate-keep' the forum? I haven't been part of typing in over a year, so what exactly are you hoping to achieve with this anyway?
> 
> To be clear, I quote others just as much as I quote myself, but I'm not going to go rummaging through year old posts to find evidence of me quoting another 4. Tell me, if everything I've been saying about type 4 has been so off, you'd think ONE person at least would say something to me, like I don't know, Paradigm or Cosmic at the very least. They know their enneagram, and I even think Para's disagreed with me many times when I've misunderstood something. I also trust Cosmic to tell me when I'm way off with my interpretation of a type. I don't think anyone is terrified of me so as not to say anything when I'm spewing bullshit all over a forum. I welcome disagreement, but just because you have been on the receiving end of my explanations doesn't mean shit. That just means your observation is colored by how you think I treated you.


Perception, sure. That's what enneagram is about, right? Otherwise we could just get it from books. The question is, are my perceptions valid in any way? It doesn't matter what angle I come from, if in the end, the case I am making, resonates with you and with others.

Nevertheless, I will be more specific in the morning.



> Social death, really? You and I have had so many disagreements over time, and I wouldn't say that affected your social life on here even a little bit.


No, it hasn't. I was referring to those who are afraid to oppose your posts or your typing. I am not amongst those people. Nor does perc social life have any impact on my actual life, outside the very few close friends I've made.




> I don't recall ever asking you, but you're right, WHY is that?


I will make a case tomorrow. I'm almost asleep. 
You are on the mistype thread after all, and left your type open, and you have questioned my type early in this thread. 

This case will not be based on personal interaction, but on your own posts.
There is a lot of stuff leading me away from core 4 for you, and yes, some of it is perception based, and your patterns. Because your self-reports sometimes blatantly, and repeatedly spell out qualities you have which do not match your actions. However, there should be enough posts to show what i mean. It might take me a few days since you have a lot of posts and I haven't followed ALL of them too closely.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Ace Face said:


> Mockingly, eh? You're right, I'm singling you out here. I've literally never made a joke in the midst of PerC drama before. Nope... it's never happened...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I have thanked her posts because she is sharing information with you that I think you need to hear. She has some points. I think you would do well to put down the defense here and listen to what she has to say. From what I've observed from her, she is very honest, forgiving, willing to let things go... I don't think she's legitimately harboring ill will here. But what do I know? I've only been observing her for a couple of years now, just as I've observed you here and there. If you legitimately want feedback from me, I will give you some. I do not, however, hold a very strong opinion of you as I do not know you. All I know is what you've shown me on here, and as @_Animal_ has pointed out, it hasn't necessarily been pretty things. I think there is more to you than what you display, but you've got a wall up... like everyone is out to attack you or something. Put it down and listen. Sometimes, perceived enemies can teach you the greatest lessons. Just let the past go, and listen to what she has to say. That is my advice to you.


And I don't expect you to know me based on what I have shown here, because all of my discussions on the Enneagram forum have been purely theoretical, and rarely ever personal, as in I don't like opening up about myself as much as I like discussing the theory. That is a personal choice on my part, and I don't expect you to be able to know anything about me regarding that besides the fact that a) I enjoy discussing the Enneagram theory and b) I also have an impulse to correct people whenever they get it wrong. But that apparently makes me an Enneagram authority, and a very tyrannical one. 

Thanks for the post though.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> I will make a case tomorrow. I'm almost asleep.
> You are on the mistype thread after all, and left your type open, and you have questioned my type early in this thread.
> 
> This case will not be based on personal interaction, but on your own posts.
> There is a lot of stuff leading me away from core 4 for you, and yes, some of it is perception based, and your patterns. Because your self-reports sometimes blatantly, and repeatedly spell out qualities you have which do not match your actions. However, there should be enough posts to show what i mean. It might take me a few days since you have a lot of posts and I haven't followed ALL of them too closely.


Will there be a jury? I don't recall inviting you to suggest a different type for me either way.


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> Will there be a jury? I don't recall inviting you to suggest a different type for me either way.


You put it on this thread early on, and you have suggested different types for me on various forums when I didn't request it - including threads that were not mistype threads.

Would you then back out? You don't want to hear the case? 

If so, Why not?
Can dish it but can't take it?

I had more respect for you than that....


----------



## kaleidoscope

Arya said:


> So why do you choose to cause the same drama over and over considering you've noticed the pattern? To bait @_Animal_? Because you love drama? Ephemeral's typing is hardly important enough to cause this much drama over. If you knew that Animal would get baited and upset then you are being emotionally manipulative and a bully.


Consider it hopeful on my part. And this wasn't even about Ephemeral's typing, LOL.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> You put it on this thread early on, and you have suggested different types for me on various forums when I didn't request it - including threads that were not mistype threads.
> 
> Would you then back out? You don't want to hear the case?
> 
> If so, Why not?


I'm not interested in an 'expose kaleidoscope' discussion, especially not from your current perspective - because you seem to think I'm 'mean' and 'cruel'. If you'd like to discuss my type, I would love to do so in a less hostile discussion.


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> I'm not interested in an 'expose kaleidoscope' discussion, especially not from your current perspective - because you seem to think I'm 'mean' and 'cruel'. If you'd like to discuss my type, I would love to do so in a less hostile discussion.


Much like with doll, all personal problems were dropped in relation to the typing discussion.

I promise to stick to theory and observations. I won't conflate the two. In terms of personal issues, I have said my bit, and due to intellectual integrity I have no intention of mixing that with your type.

Keeping in mind that enneagram points out negative/ deeper traits, of course.

But I absolutely will not mention anything personal in that type of scenario. I would never drag the personal into it. I have genuine thoughts about your type - this was just the first time I thought to bring it up. But intellectual integrity is important to me, and having said what I feel, I can put that aside for the thoughts I was having.

If you think I treat you otherwise or "attack" you in the typing discussion feel free to call me out. But that is not my intention.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> Much like with doll, all personal problems were dropped in relation to the typing discussion.
> 
> I promise to stick to theory and observations. I won't conflate the two. In terms of personal issues, I have said my bit, and due to intellectual integrity I have no intention of mixing that with your type.
> 
> Keeping in mind that enneagram points out negative/ deeper traits, of course.
> 
> But I absolutely will not mention anything personal in that type of scenario. I would never drag the personal into it. I have genuine thoughts about your type - this was just the first time I thought to bring it up. But intellectual integrity is important to me, and having said what I feel, I can put that aside for the thoughts I was having.
> 
> If you think I treat you otherwise or "attack" you in the typing discussion feel free to call me out. But that is not my intention.


Then I look forward to it.


----------



## Ace Face

kaleidoscope said:


> And I don't expect you to know me based on what I have shown here, because all of my discussions on the Enneagram forum have been purely theoretical, and rarely ever personal, as in I don't like opening up about myself as much as I like discussing the theory. That is a personal choice on my part, and I don't expect you to be able to know anything about me regarding that besides the fact that a) I enjoy discussing the Enneagram theory and b) I also have an impulse to correct people whenever they get it wrong. But that apparently makes me an Enneagram authority, and a very tyrannical one.
> 
> Thanks for the post though.


You're right. I wouldn't understand what it's like to correct people when they're wrong and be judged for it. Oh, no... wait... that's not true, is it? You know very well that I do the same thing when I feel something needs to be said, when information needs to be corrected. What people are saying to you has less to do with the fact that you "correct" them, and more about the manner in which you "correct" them. I would encourage you not to take this out of context. I think the people who are "calling you out" actually want very much to like you, know you, and be on good terms with you. I don't think people are sitting around circle-jerking right now to the fact that people are speaking up in regards to how you seem to treat others. Apparently, a few people have noticed the same behaviors coming from you on here... maybe there's something to it, dude. Like I suggested before... it would do you well to open your heart up and just listen to what people have to say. Animal has been pretty damn cordial in her approach, and I've yet to see people actually sling shit at you in all of this. Relax a little and just be open to their observations and opinions. I really think this could be a really positive thing.


----------



## Sina

@_kaleidoscope_

You are absolutely right. I said as much in private, and I will say so in public that what I said was exactly the same shit that you said. It's a fuckin pattern, starting on that thread a year or two ago, that he starts something, leaves and then other people bark in his stead and he either leaves abruptly or makes an appearance later hoping all is forgotten (which sure it is , and I have no issues with it), only to stir shit yet again. When ephemeral has talked shit to people or legit bullied them (and I use this loaded term very sparingly, and it's no secret that I have never really liked Leat and will still engage him in serious discussion where applicable), once even by shitting on very sensitive personal details for which he was infracted, among other shit like name calling numerous times, none of his yapping lil lapdogs have shown up to do 'justice and "call out" HIS harassment'. So, this is all a misplaced loyalty buddying up sham that I've seen long enough to disregard as lame as fuck. People can take all the pseudo-'ethical' grandstanding and blow it out their ass. 

What you said was NO different from what I said. And, if this makes you an "emotionally manipulative bully" (@Arya), going after @_Animal_, then sure as fuck, I too ( a very close friend of Animal) am an emotionally manipulative bully (histrionic much? XD) out to get her ass, who agreed with the remark. The double standards here are absolutely ridiculous, and I don't care who has had issues with whom, but I will not sit here and endorse this farcical hypocritical rubbish. She is not a fuckin baby who'd get bullied because absolutely accurate comments were made about somebody else. This is a mockery of her. So, the whole crying wolf rubbish is full of shit, and I have absolutely no respect for it. It's nothing but retarded victim playing.

And, definitely in this situation, while I would've been more interested to see your perspective on this as Doll posting in your absence (and I've said as much in private that obviously you have a life and may have been away), for agreeing on the leat point, I would have to be as much of a lapdog (LOL) as Doll in that brief exchange involving the three of us.


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_kaleidoscope_
> 
> You are absolutely right. I said as much in private, and I will say so in public that what I said was exactly the same shit that you said. It's a fuckin pattern, starting on that thread a year or two ago, that he starts something, leaves and then other people bark in his stead and he either leaves (good for him) or makes an appearance later hoping all is forgotten (which sure it is , and I have no issues with it), only to stir shit yet again.
> 
> What you said was NO different from what I said. And, if this makes you an "emotionally manipulative bully", going after @_Animal_, then sure as fuck, I too ( a very close friend of Animal) am an emotionally manipulative bully out to get her ass, who agreed with the remark.


First of all, I never claimed @kaleidoscope "went after me" or was "out to get my ass." I only referred to the time she did that in my mistype thread - and how I have seen her do this to me as a pattern.
This is a twist on what I said.

I was merely commenting on the way that Kal posts something very extreme and then ends it with, "anyone who attacks this is bogus" in essence.

Do you say the same thing? Maybe. But I have not involved myself in those talks. It's two separate issues. I don't like the patterns I've seen with Kalei. I said so. I'd rather say it to her face than behind her back, how she strikes me. I don't need to back it up with facts and make it "fair." It's my impression. This post was an example of an overall impression.

Earlier in this thread , Kalei posted some odious quotes from ephem and then didn't bother arguing it herself. She just went and found them and left it for everyone else to handle the arguing.

You never do things like that. You see it through to the end. You don't just stir shit and then giggle in the background. You OWN your points.

I see it as different, not two of the same things. If you did the same things in essence that she does as patterns, we wouldn't be close friends.



> The double standards here are absolutely fuckin ridiculous, and I don't care who has had issues with whom, but I will not sit here and endorse this hypocritical bullshit, not on my watch. This whole crying wolf rubbish is full of shit, and I have absolutely no respect for it. It's nothing but retarded victim playing.


I have not claimed to be a victim outside the thread years ago when I was blatantly attacked, and you said so yourself.

I don't know what victim-plaiyng you refer to, of if you're referring to me.



> And, definitely in this situation, while I would've been more interested to see your perspective on this as Doll posting in your absence (and I've said as much in private that obviously you have a life and may have been away), for agreeing on the leat point, I would have to be as much of a lapdog (LOL) as Doll in that brief exchange involving the three of us.


I don't expect support. I don't want lapdogs. I have a right to say my view point and I don't care if people agree with it or approve or not. I'd rather say it here than rant about people I don't like in the TAM thread and not to their face. This is why I mostly post nice stuff int he tam thread. If I have something fucked up to say that doesn't quite make sense, I'd rather say it, balls out, and let people hate me or disagree with me if they will - even my friends. I am not going to shut up because of what people might think, nor am I going to hide behind an anonymous TAM post. It's just not the way I am. I have thoughts. they might not always make logical sense and they might not be backed up with logic. That doesn't mean I don't observe them and feel them. So.. I really don't need lapdogs. It's enough for me to have my thoughts in the open so I'm not carrying secret grudges. This way a type discussion or any discussion.. is approached with a clean slate.


----------



## Sina

Animal said:


> First of all, I never claimed @_kaleidoscope_ "went after me" or was "out to get my ass." I only referred to the time she did that in my mistype thread - and how I have seen her do this to me as a pattern.
> This is a twist on what I said.


I forgot who had said she was a manipulative bully in this instance for calling out Leat, apparently as a ploy to bully you. I think it was @_Arya_. You didn't use the term "emotionally manipulative bully" regarding the Leat drama, so I don't see why you would think I'd put words in your mouth. I was neither quoting nor paraphrasing you. I'll give it you that it would've been better had I mentioned Arya.


> I was merely commenting on the way that Kal posts something very extreme and then ends it with, "anyone who attacks this is bogus" in essence.


In this case, I agree with her.



> Do you say the same thing? Maybe.


When warranted, absolutely I do.


> But I have not involved myself in those talks. It's two separate issues. I don't like the patterns I've seen with Kalei. I said so. I'd rather say it to her face than behind her back, how she strikes me. I don't need to back it up with facts and make it "fair." It's my impression. This post was an example of an overall impression.


Shit like "fairness" has been a mootpoint in this whole drama. And no, facts guide reason. One has to know whether the facts line up with their perceptions before making pronouncements. This is common sense. Although, I don't have any issues with you suggesting she said something mean. My post was not about that, but about you being painted, here, as the victim of an emotionally manipulative bully who called Leat out just to get under your skin. Hell, I called her out too. :laughing:

Surely you see what an absurd laughable and hypocritical remark this is? :3


> Earlier in this thread , Kalei posted some odious quotes from ephem and then didn't bother arguing it herself. She just went and found them and left it for everyone else to handle the arguing.


If so, sure. I don't see how it's relevant to my point. There was nothing even remotely "odious" about the quote where Leat said patently un-8 ish things. The quote spoke for itself, basically. Hell, even I just paraphrased it. There's no "Argument" there. 


> You never do things like that. You see it through to the end. You don't just stir shit and then giggle in the background. You OWN your points.


Oh, I do see things through. So, I see how that could be interpreted this way, yes. 


> I see it as different, not two of the same things. If you did the same things in essence that she does as patterns, we wouldn't be close friends.


Sure



> I have not claimed to be a victim outside the thread years ago when I was blatantly attacked, and you said so yourself.


I didn't say that YOU were claiming to be a victim of her. I was disagreeing with painting you as the victim, because such things are really petty. You are among my closest friends here, and I'd rather your arguments stand on their own merit, as opposed to you being painted as some hapless victim. It's hilarious sure, but it's also pretty lame.


> I don't know what victim-plaiyng you refer to, of if you're referring to me.


Read above



> I don't expect support. I don't want lapdogs. I have a right to say my view point and I don't care if people agree with it or approve or not. I'd rather say it here than rant about people I don't like in the TAM thread and not to their face. This is why I mostly post nice stuff int he tam thread. If I have something fucked up to say that doesn't quite make sense, I'd rather say it, balls out, and let people hate me or disagree with me if they will - even my friends. I am not going to shut up because of what people might think, nor am I going to hide behind an anonymous TAM post. It's just not the way I am. I have thoughts. they might not always make logical sense and they might not be backed up with logic. That doesn't mean I don't observe them and feel them. So.. I really don't need lapdogs. It's enough for me to have my thoughts in the open so I'm not carrying secret grudges. This way a type discussion or any discussion.. is approached with a clean slate.


I have never said that you want or need lapdogs. Because if so, for agreeing with kalei where I agree with her here and with you where I agree with you, I'd have to be one hell of a fuckin lapdog. LMAO. I'd rather be a lapcat though. :kitteh: Meow.

As for TAM, there's nothing I am prepared to or haven't already said to someone's face that I will say behind their back. I appreciate your honesty in confronting @_kaleidoscope_ with any issues you may have here, but the unwarranted victimizing of Leat and of you is rubbish (for different reasons albeit), and I don't agree with it.


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I forgot who had said she was a manipulative bully in this instance for calling out Leat, apparently as a ploy to bully you. I think it was @_Arya_. You didn't use the term "emotionally manipulative bully" regarding the Leat drama, so I don't see why you would think I'd put words in your mouth. I was neither quoting nor paraphrasing you. I'll give it you that it would've been better had I mentioned Arya.


Ah ok. Yeah it wasn't mentioned so i got confused.



> In this case, I agree with her.
> 
> 
> 
> When warranted, absolutely I do.


Notice I have yet to say her comments were unwarranted.
Commenting on her TECHNIQUE was a different thing than saying it's unwarranted.



> Shit like "fairness" has been a mootpoint in this whole drama. And no, facts guide reason. One has to know whether the facts line up with their perceptions before making pronouncements. This is common sense. Although, I don't have any issues with you suggesting she said something mean. My post was not about that, but about you being painted, here, as the victim of an emotionally manipulative bully who called Leat out just to get under your skin. Hell, I called her out too. :laughing:
> 
> Surely you see what an absurd laughable and hypocritical remark this is? :3


I'll leave that between you and the posters at hand.



> If so, sure. I don't see how it's relevant to my point. There was nothing even remotely "odious" about the quote where Leat said patently un-8 ish things. The quote spoke for itself, basically. Hell, even I just paraphrased it. There's no "Argument" there.


It spoke for itself. Indeed. But Kal came just to make that point, not to iron out the same "reasonable type argument" that she requested from me. She spews fire at ephemeral, but asks me not to engage in a kalei-bashing session using type as an excuse. Okay, I won't , because I'm above that kind of behavior - but is kalei above it too? Is she dishing the same treatment she is asking for?
I'll leave that for you to decide.



> I didn't say that YOU were claiming to be a victim of her. I was disagreeing with painting you as the victim, because such things are really petty. You are among my closest friends here, and I'd rather your arguments stand on their own merit, as opposed to you being painted as some hapless victim. It's hilarious sure, but it's also pretty lame.
> 
> 
> Read above


Got it . I won't address this then, bc it's not directed at me.



> I have never said that you want or need lapdogs. Because if so, for agreeing with kalei where I agree with her here and with you where I agree with you, I'd have to be one hell of a fuckin lapdog. LMAO. I'd rather be a lapcat though. :kitteh: Meow.


You can be my lapcat :3



> As for TAM, there's nothing I am prepared to or haven't already said to someone's face that I will say behind their back. I appreciate your honesty in confronting @_kaleidoscope_ with any issues you may have here, but the unwarranted victimizing of Leat and of you is rubbish (for different reasons albeit), and I don't agree with it.


For the 4th or 10th time..
I am NOT victimizing Ephem. My post had NOTHING to do with Epmem but simply , a technique that I observed in Kaleidoscope's arguing style. It was completely irrelevant that the person happened to be Ephem. A coincidence, maybe. You know I haven't defended ephemeral in this WHOLE THREAD and I am not starting now. I have no interest in it. Was Kal's post meaner than mine? YEs. Am I going to claim ephem didn't deserve it? No, I am not getting involved in the ephem debaucle, period. This was about me and Kaleidoscope (and then Doll) and the fact she addressed ephem was irrelevant to me.

THere is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between pointing out Kal's techniqe and defending ephem. No matter how many people tell me I was victimizing or defending ephem - I WASN'T. And I made no indication of it, either. That ALL came from others' misinterpretation of the very clear words I had said.

The only time I brought up ephem was with the double standard that He should not be defended but Kal should. That's complete bullshit. anyone can defend anyone, for any reason they like, equally.


----------



## Kisshoten

LeoCat said:


> Why do people keep trying to put you in a positive triad @_Animal_ ?


Seconded.

You're less about the outlook, imo, because as I see it, positive outlook types resort to their positive outlook circumstantially. It's like... the positive outlook is a friend indeed, because its a friend when we are in need. I doubt the positivity is all pervading. 

It's a matter of convenience over confidence. 

(might have worded that badly, but yes, I think the positive outlook thing is a safety hatch)


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me? YOU KNOW I am in a different timezone. It was fucking 3AM when I posted and then I went to bed. Like normal people do. This is exactly what I mean when I say that you are twisting everything to fit your argument and your perception of me, but also to paint me like a coward.


You didn't post anything else about it after that, either, until now - and the argument went on for days, so this is bullshit.


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Animal_, I think you have been waiting to see what you said today for a long ass time. You kept it in, and waited. I came back to the Enneagram forum - if you recall, I had been away and not posting in it for a while - strictly determined not to type people the way I used to. Whether you like it or not, or rather, whether you see it or not, I had realized that things were getting blown out of proportion and that the entire experience was tainted now with hostility, so I simply gave up. It was not worth it to me anymore. The ONE time I chose to engage in a response because Ephemeral had been disrespectful to a friend of mine and it was 100% unwarranted (YES, maybe that makes me a lapdog but I don't give two flying fucks), you jump on the occasion to make your case and make me come across as a bully, and an abusive person. I know for a fact that a lot of the things that you referred to happened more than a year ago. Even now when you typed as a 4, even when I disagreed, I kept my mouth shut. I said to myself that you'd figure things out on your own, I wasn't interested in getting into more debates with you. But in your opinion apparently, people can never change.
> 
> Your points are outdated, but if it makes you feel better to get them off your chest, by all means have at it. If there's one thing good coming out of this, it's that for once, I'm not going to worry about how people see me anymore on here, because you just twisted that beyond repair and I'm just past the point of caring.


You did not "keep your mouth shut" about my typing. You said a lot of things about it on another thread, and also this one. But that's fine - I've never had a grudge against anyone for disagreeing with my type. I have never had any issue with anyone for talking about type at all, but rather, using it as a pretext to insult people.

If I , alone, "twisted" how people see you, that would be pretty sad for them. If people have opinions about you, I'm afraid you did that yourself. You may have twisted how people see me back then, but I wouldn't complain about it because how they see me is up to them, and ultimately would be based on my own actions. I hope that my opinions won't affect anyone else's. If they agree with me about things, it may be that they noticed similar things and simply didn't say it. If they are agreeing with me "just to agree," I would not want that... I don't like groupthink. I have no interest in 'swaying' people

But you certainly didn't think about this when I was relatively new to the forum and you "bashed me," yet it was not beyond repair. I came back, I was myself, and my reputation stands to back up who I am, regardless of all efforts or reasons from outside that it might have been swayed. Chances are, there are people on forum who will see this and will then change their opinions of me, too.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> You didn't post anything else about it after that, either, until now - and the argument went on for days, so this is bullshit.


Uh, what are you even talking about?


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> Uh, what are you even talking about?


I was referring to THE FIRST TIME you posted quotes about ephemeral - not this argument.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> You did not "keep your mouth shut" about my typing. You said a lot of things about it on another thread, and also this one. But that's fine - I've never had a grudge against anyone for disagreeing with my type. I have never had any issue with anyone for talking about type at all, but rather, using it as a pretext to insult people.





kaleidoscope said:


> @_Animal_, I don't think you're a 4w3 (or w5), I genuinely don't, and I've tried hard to look for any themes that would indicate it. (...)


^ This was my comment on your type in *this *thread. It wasn't insulting at all, and this was over 7 months ago. This is my point.



> But you certainly didn't think about this when I was relatively new to the forum and you "bashed me," yet it was not beyond repair. I came back, I was myself, and my reputation stands to back up who I am, regardless of all efforts or reasons from outside that it might have been swayed. Chances are, there are people on forum who will see this and will then change their opinions of me, too.


Again, stop mentioning outdated things when it has nothing to do with what happened today. When I 'bashed' you like you say, I didn't make a case showing how tyrannical you are, and I think it would be pretty silly anyway if your 'reputation' was ruined because of mistyping. It's ridiculous how much of our argument here is based on things that didn't even happen in the recent past, and I'm starting to get tired of it. If you have issues with me STILL regarding that, PM me instead. I won't discuss it here.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> I was referring to THE FIRST TIME you posted quotes about ephemeral - not this argument.


There wasn't even a discussion when that happened, the only person that quoted me was Cosmic agreeing over how un-8like it was. Your argument is completely irrelevant.


----------



## Siggy

* Hey Folks,

The "Gently Honest Mistype thread" seems to be deteriorating into the “not so gentle Bitch-slap, and derail thread”*

*So lets keep this discussion civil and on topic.


Thanks

DS


*


----------



## mushr00m

Doll said:


> @_mushr00m_ - I think this is the first time we talked since I got back to the forum! I missed you! <3 Anyway, I do agree with what you say about the descriptions. I always felt similarly. I think people who write the descriptions are semi-biased by their own idealization/devaluation of other types. Especially when the whole 4 is "more 8 than 8" came about. When I read how the SX 4 progressed in Naranjo, it was clearly influenced heavily by other factors that undermines the exaggerated HATE of that subtype.
> 
> I know if I wrote an enneagram book, there would be a few nameless types that probably wouldn't like how I described them. Authors of theories are supposed to put their objective glasses on, but I imagine that's harder said than done.


Heyo you! It's good to see ya back huni! *hugz*

Yeah, agreed there about the 4/8 comparison, it's a bit of an overloaded comparison I think. 

Pardon my klutziness, could ya's explain this bit, sounds interesting...



> When I read how the SX 4 progressed in Naranjo, it was clearly influenced heavily by other factors that undermines the exaggerated HATE of that subtype.


----------



## mushr00m

hal0hal0 said:


> I think the observer's own biases being projected into their observations is another one (Jung talked about this very thing in PT). I notice "projection" is often used in a negative or derogatory connotation, but I've always thought that a tad misleading. For instance, when I typed at INFJ, I would often find myself "seeing" Ni projected into people I liked or perhaps "seeing" Si in people I disliked. Ironically, LOL, now that I type at ISFP, I do find myself occasionally ascribing Fi to people I like. I'm at least aware of this compulsion in myself, which makes me hesitant to type other people (especially with JCF since I am still shaky with that system). So I tend to focus on just throwing information out there and letting people decide for themselves (to the extent that I sometimes toy with a 6-fix/core when I'm in a tritype mood, because of hesitancy, doubt, etc.).


Indeed! Jung himself fell into the negative role of projection when he discussed certain functions such as extroverted thinking, doesn't mean to say he was wrong in his subjective experience of Te, if anything, was a good example of a perspective of a function he was unfamiliar with in his own psyche, his experience of it in others, following this, perhaps an orientation towards introverted thinking instead. There may be some validity to ascribing functions to others(controversial I know ) depending on our attitude towards that function, there may be a reason why we *like* it, as in mesh well due to mutual understanding. It's hit or miss though...
It's interesting and also important that you are aware of projections in yourself, I find it of interest just how often people are aware of their own projections and this awareness being the difference between productive versus destructive projections. Food for thought!

Being aware of projections seems to lead in turn to stronger approaches towards the type of projecting we do, as in your example Halo  As in providing a better approach to helping others, e.g laying the information out for people to be able to come to decisions on their own, with good information comes more informed decisions...



> So I think projection, in the observer's mind, can be either positive or negative.


Yus! A breakthrough in how projection is understood. This makes much sense.



> Projection I believe to be an inevitable part of communication in general (i.e., "to project" in the classical sense means to speak up and voice your thoughts), no matter how well-intentioned the person might be. Moreover, I don't think introjection gets talked about as much, which bewilders me since I consider them two complementary sides of the same coin. What is introjected (soaked up) is later projected (spit out) which is then introjected by someone else.
> 
> Classically, I see the projection as the "parenting" role whereas introjection is the "child" taking in the values, biases, etc. from the parents.


Agreed again, well thought! Not much to add here me dearz!



> I tend to introject a LOT and flagrantly so (it's not simply about "copying others" but moreover, remodeling my psyche... accepting their projections into my consciousness as a "part of me"). In the spam "Tell a Member" thread I have a bad habit of automatically assuming those vents are about me or related to me in some way or that if I share, saying something about my character, etc. (oh how self-centered you are @_hal0hal0_ you're not that special  ). I just have to remind myself to approach things like that with a bit of a thicker hide.


Ouch, relates to you. I've had that thing where I get all paranoid because I relate too much back to myself like if something happens to someone that puts them in a bad mood or something, I think, what did I do? They are mad at me, it's all my fault until I say to them, have I pissed you off? And they say, What?!! (had nothing to do with me in the first place, lolol!) Rinse, repeat... It sounds shamefully self obsessed, more self punishment. *argh shrug* 




> I think finding people that exemplify certain types is definitely useful, although it's frustrating when people who I thought were perfect for a given type suddenly change their type (LMAO, I've totally done this myself... I've probably misled plenty with my uber-INFJness :laughing. I mean, it's good because you don't want the wrong type, but at the same time, I do wish there was some consistency/stability. Changing types, imo, ought to have some level of purpose or reasoning behind it or at least get closer to the truth.


That's true. Maybe it might be useful to have both sides accounts, both the individuals and the observers. And with situations such as the changing types and within certain typologies, not sure the mistype rate between one typology and another but mistypes are both inevitable and to many, essential to their self learning. But yeah, to the observer, mistypes that output type information based on their mistyping(unintentional or intentional) can definitely pose another obstacle in internet typing phenomena in some ways. But to their personal story, it benefits them and leads to a stronger, personal understanding. That can't be a bad thing.



> No offense to Jung, but it's not all about "what's on the inside." What comes from within extends outward. Consistent behavioral patterns do count for something.


Yes, some couple of years ago, behaviouralism was pretty much much considered in quite absolute terms of irrelevence in enneagram discussion when it's our behaviour which is the window to our core motivations, we see people's personalities filtered through their behaviours, good and bad.


----------



## Blystone

@Animal You're a 4. Label me dogmatic or obstinate, nothing will convince me otherwise.


----------



## drmiller100

it is pretty easy to look at someone else and see the splinter in their eye, but the plank in my own is invisible. 

sometimes I say things which I think are pretty benign, yet they hurt someone. Sometimes someone says something which is pretty hurtful to me which probably they thought was pretty benign. I end up stewing on it, and developing hate, and wasting my energy on it, and it really is my own shit.
@Cosmic Orgasm you really pissed me off a while back.. sometimes I read your posts and think "what a crab ass, can't he/she ever be nice?" 
And i look at the people who respect you, and the dichotomy is glaring. There are some really quality people who respect you greatly. 

life is good. fighing battles on a forum like this seems kind of pointless, and holding grudges seems even dumber. I want to let it go, and it is all my own shit, nothing you have done.


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> I don't really "deviate" as much as make my own rules. I don't rebel_ or_ comply. I was never the kid to say "no" just because my parents said so, but I wouldn't do something "because they said so" either. I've always been beyond an independent thinker. Not rebellious or compliant, not deviant or normalizing.


I was the same way as a child. I was very independent, didn't rebel, but I also wasn't one to always do what I was told, either. I just kind of did my thing. I liked to read underneath the table during Algebra because I hated math, or I would get a hall pass just so I could go dance/sing around on the stage in the high school auditorium and pretend to be famous.



> You can probably see that in how I post or talk about types. Unless something hits me at the heart and I get in defensive mode about seeing something about me that hurts (which is human) , for the most part I agree or disagree with various things within one post, even if it doesn't go along with my previous theory about myself. You said that yourself, that you were impressed that I had written things that differed from my current self-typing. That made me smile, but for me, that's just my nature. I don't mold myself to a book or a description. I strive to be as honest as I can, and sometimes I realize that past notions about myself were incorrect or need to be re-evaluated, but I do not follow some set of rules telling me what I am, what I should be, how to fit into a structure, etc. That's not deviant for the sake of deviance, but it's not compliant for the sake of compliance either. One thing I can say about myself with absolute certainty, and have never changed, is that I think independently. I have done a lot of work on my mind to be sure I am thinking independently, when I feel I am being influenced by my feelings for someone for instance. I don't want to rebel or comply, and when I feel myself doing either for its own sake, I get on top of it immediately. It's why "groupthink" makes me think that I'm an alien from another planet because this seems to be something almost everyone else does_. M_ost people will see a standard, and decide to comply to that standard, or rebel against that standard. If I see the standard at all, I will say "hm, interesting standard..wonder why that exists."


I think there's a misconception of "groupthink" because - honestly - sometimes people will agree in tandem, sometimes they won't. Just because some people think one thing while another thinks another doesn't mean they are all engaging in groupthink - it means they happen to agree. I think "groupthink" just happens if someone agrees BECAUSE the majority agrees... you know what I mean? 

As it is, I'm glad you don't mold yourself - I myself have several contradictions from how I was in the past to how I am now, but I've gone through periods of idealizing different things and consequently developing different "selves" to what I WANTED to be. Phases, I guess is the best way to put it. I think with enneagram (at least for me) it's less about molding to a type and more about understanding what a type is prone to do/not do, and how that falls in line with patterns in your own life. My lack of a pattern and why I've developed it correlates to a certain type. It's not, "I read this type and like it, therefore I am", it's more "I read this type and omg, I've done this time and time again." Seeing it applied over a long period of time is always so telling.
@Animal - Additionally, you mentioned you saw me as a 4w3 core, 6w7 and 9w8 fixed - I differ on the 6w7 part, obvs 'cause of my signature , but I do want to know what makes you consider 6w7 instead? I initially did type myself as 6w7 and heavily went between both fixes for a LONG time because I was undecided. After I stepped back and looked at type 6 verses type 7, though, as separate entities rather than in the context of a fixed type (those descriptions were much more general), I found that I couldn't relate to type 6 hardly at all. I admire type 6s for a lot of things and sometimes I WANT to take these traits upon myself, so in the end I attributed my 6w7-head-fix-typing as wishful thinking... 

BUT if you have a case for it, definitely let me know what it is!! I'd be omg so happy!



Flatliner said:


> Your cognition appears very solidly Fi to me. You claim to rely a lot on introspection and I believe it - but more importantly, you seem to feel things out and are very clearly viewing and evaluating them in relation to yourself. I wouldn't put any other process above this in you, at least not based on how your thinking seems to me in this thread and other places.
> 
> You very clearly sit in contrast with Animal, who leads with extraverted cognition. I think there is some misattribution going on in your thought process that actually speaks more to this distinction than any there may be between your cores. But there is a lot to pick apart to support that point of view, as this conversation is insanely data-heavy, so take it as my perception for now.


Does this mean you see me as an INFP? I'm stupid with MBTI, sry... talk to me like I'm a beginner. 



mushr00m said:


> Heyo you! It's good to see ya back huni! *hugz*


Thanks!! *hugs!*



> Yeah, agreed there about the 4/8 comparison, it's a bit of an overloaded comparison I think.
> 
> Pardon my klutziness, could ya's explain this bit, sounds interesting...


Sure sure. Naranjo's SX 4 is all about oral hate and competitive aggression. I definitely can be orally hateful (lol) and aggressively competitive when it comes to a significant other/friend/someone I connect strongly to, but the type is mainstreamed as SO overly aggressive that, if anyone came tromping onto this forum behaving in that manner, they'd immediately be stereotypically branded as a counterphobic 6. His SX 4s have a LOT of anger.

I'm sure people who do apply his theory would explain my lack of relation away by so being second in my stacking, or maybe because I have two "positive" fixes, which keep me from being OMG I HATE YOU FOREVAH mindset... but going back to basics, there's no inclusion of 4 characteristics in his instinctual descriptions at all. It's like a completely separate type.
@kaleidoscope - I know it was mentioned you might be mistyped, but I disagree. I see you as type 4, and not because I'm comparing you to myself, but because of what I've seen on the forum and throughout our personal discussions.


----------



## drmiller100

hal0hal0 said:


> I which is what sort of correlation is there with the instinctual variants vs. conflict avoidance/engagement? Would Sx-dom be more inclined to engage with conflict in general, since the nature of the instinct is sort of about connection (be it intimate, abrasive, etc.) or interfacing with an experience/person? I've noticed that a lot of the arguments, tension or "heat" if you will, seem to involve either Sx-heavy or Sx-dom individuals (i.e., the last 5 pages or so of this thread, I count a large number of Sx-dom or self-typed Sx-dom).
> 
> in the world.


the style of squabbling is also interesting.
As an Sx, I do like me some excitement and drama. I will indeed poke the bear. RARELY will I team up with someone. 

To me there is an element of "pack" with some people. They agree as a pack and there are social "norms" which they all generally adhere to. normal stuff, but kind of glaring to me. Is this So? 

My ex is Sp. I try to avoid Sp. I had enough for a life time.

me being here obviously means me gets something. There is a payoff. my participation likely does feed my need for social interaction.


----------



## Doll

drmiller100 said:


> the style of squabbling is also interesting.
> As an Sx, I do like me some excitement and drama. I will indeed poke the bear. RARELY will I team up with someone.
> 
> To me there is an element of "pack" with some people. They agree as a pack and there are social "norms" which they all generally adhere to. normal stuff, but kind of glaring to me. Is this So?


Maybe, but it depends on how people are using their social instinct. People with SO blindspots might be less inclined to participate - for me, SO is my secondary instinct, so I am apt to use the SO instinct to feed my primary SX instinct (the need for excitement). I wouldn't go as far as to say conflict, as not everyone is EXCITED by conflict... which makes me curious about SX 9s... are there any on here that would offer a viewpoint on this? 



> My ex is Sp. I try to avoid Sp. I had enough for a life time.


My current SO is sp-first and omg, I need it, or I'd probably be backpacking through Europe with no shoes and a banana.

/exaggeration.


----------



## Sina

drmiller100 said:


> it is pretty easy to look at someone else and see the splinter in their eye, but the plank in my own is invisible.
> 
> sometimes I say things which I think are pretty benign, yet they hurt someone. Sometimes someone says something which is pretty hurtful to me which probably they thought was pretty benign. I end up stewing on it, and developing hate, and wasting my energy on it, and it really is my own shit.
> @_Cosmic Orgasm_ you really pissed me off a while back.. sometimes I read your posts and think "what a crab ass, can't he/she ever be nice?"
> And i look at the people who respect you, and the dichotomy is glaring. There are some really quality people who respect you greatly.
> 
> life is good. fighing battles on a forum like this seems kind of pointless, and holding grudges seems even dumber. I want to let it go, and it is all my own shit, nothing you have done.


I liked your honesty there. I am a "she", btw.  

In keeping with the attempt to re-rail this poor thread, I will keep my response to you very brief as much as I love pulling your leg. You are encouraged, for the nth time, to quit the public bullshit and send me a PM. You have been invited numerous times to do so. This time around, I will wait for it. Take it off the thread. '
@_Arya_

I was long done with this conversation. I have lost interest and have nothing more to say, and I'd like for this to get back on track. If you have anything in mind, you're welcome to PM me.


----------



## Doll

@Cosmic Orgasm - 

I have a question! *waves hand* I know we talked on Skype about my fixes and stuff, do you have anything in regards to 6w7 verses 7w6 for my head fix?


----------



## Arya

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I liked your honesty there. I am a "she", btw.
> 
> In keeping with the attempt to re-rail this poor thread, I will keep my response to you very brief as much as I love pulling your leg. You are encouraged, for the nth time, to quit the public shit and send me a PM. You have been invited numerous times to do so. This time around, I will wait for it. Take it off the thread. '
> @_Arya_
> 
> I was long done with this conversation. I have lost interest and have nothing more to say, and I'd like for this to get back on track. If you have anything in mind, you're welcome to PM me.


Nah I had my say. No need for more.


----------



## Sina

Doll said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_ -
> 
> I have a question! *waves hand* I know we talked on Skype about my fixes and stuff, do you have anything in regards to 6w7 verses 7w6 for my head fix?


hii :3 i see more of a 7ish entitlement in you, though something you said about anxiety regarding your future where you suspect you may not be good enough (not sure if it was in a 4ish sense or a deep uncertainty about the future sense) made me briefly consider 6w7 fix besides the self-doubt when you don't get a reaction. Now, 4's doubt their worth. So, what exactly you doubt (your thoughts and perceptions or your worth) would give me more of an idea. Currently I think 7w6 fix, overall. It's open to change given further input. I am sure of your core type being 4, though. 4 and 6 have similarities because of reactivity'; 4 and 7 have similarities bc of frustration stuffz. It's not exactly the easiest to pry apart. You do seem more willing to go right in and not overthink things like I'd imagine a 6w7 and 9 fixer to. Let's talk about this further.


COuld you talk about the ways in which you relate to types 6 and 7 also your thoughts on 6w7 vs 7w6 fix for yourself.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

drmiller100 said:


> My ex is Sp. I try to avoid Sp. I had enough for a life time.


No details? :tongue:


----------



## Doll

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> hii :3 i see more of a 7ish entitlement in you, though something you said about anxiety regarding your future where you suspect you may not be good enough (not sure if it was in a 4ish sense or a deep uncertainty about the future sense) made me briefly consider 6w7 fix besides the self-doubt when you don't get a reaction. Now, 4's doubt their worth. So, what exactly you doubt (your thoughts and perceptions or your worth) would give me more of an idea. Currently I think 7w6 fix, overall. It's open to change given further input. I am sure of your core type being 4, though. 4 and 6 have similarities because of reactivity'; 4 and 7 have similarities bc of frustration stuffz. It's not exactly the easiest to pry apart. You do seem more willing to go right in and not overthink things like I'd imagine a 6w7 and 9 fixer to. Let's talk about this further.
> 
> 
> COuld you talk about the ways in which you relate to types 6 and 7 also your thoughts on 6w7 vs 7w6 fix for yourself.


Okay okay let's seeeee. 

Type 6, I can relate to the anxiety and of lingering in negative states about myself. I do this a lot and question my worth - but you're right about this also applying to type 4, so picking the motivation apart seems integral. In any case, words of reassurance often do little to pull me out of my feelings; they all come from within and are internal. Anxiety is usually linked to my own perception of myself and whether or not I'm an authentic person and have reached my full potential. 

Type 7, I can relate to feeling like I don't want expectations or responsibilities put upon me. I feel confined in routine and get bored. I don't like comfort zones and frequently push away from them. However, I get stuck in emotional states. I don't avoid how I feel about something or why I feel it. I linger in it. Sometimes I even FORCE myself to linger in it. It's almost like I resist the physical comfort and embrace the emotional comfort even if it's hurting me. I suck the life out of negative _feelings_ but I'll refuse to rest under a tree because the ocean is much more exciting even though I'm too tired to swim and might drown. I throw myself into bad situations sometimes, both to give myself an emotional high and to get someone's attention (if I want to exploit my pain in some way or be "rescued", however cliche that sounds, I do it, and I'm not proud of it).

My anxiety about the future is mainly because, right now, I'm stuck. Whenever I've felt stuck in the past, I've been able to do something about it - but for now I have to wait and see and I'm impatient.

I mainly have anxiety that I'm not good enough for the job I applied for. Feeling as though I'm not "good enough" for this job is more upsetting than everything else. The worst part is, even if I GET the job and I'm told by like... GOD HIMSELF... "You are good enough", I will not believe it. So part of me feels hopeless about the outcome of the job situation because, no matter what happens, I'm still going to harbor that self-doubt and uncertainty about my performance and abilities.


----------



## Paradigm

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> ... made me briefly consider 6w7 fix besides the self-doubt when you don't get a reaction ...


Geez, this tiny comment made me realize how much I want/need "reactions" (acknowledgement, replies, etc.) whenever I decide to un-hermit, and how much self-doubt I get when there's no reaction.

I imagine it's largely a human thing (the need to feel worthwhile), but would you say it's also a reactive type thing? Is the type of reaction desired more of a telling point? Or is it really just a 6 self-doubt thing?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Doll said:


> A 4w3 is revealing, but pulls away before they share too much of their pain. A 2w3, by contrast, are an open book.


So this is a few pages back, but I figure it's at least somewhat on topic, and it seems a bit off to me. Why would a 2 be more likely to be more open and expressive than a 4?


----------



## Doll

Kink said:


> So this is a few pages back, but I figure it's at least somewhat on topic, and it seems a bit off to me. Why would a 2 be more likely to be more open and expressive than a 4?


A 2 is more outwardly engaging and other-people-oriented, whereas a 4 is a withdrawn type and is more apt to want others to seek them out. 2s can usually tell me exactly how I'm feeling, which is somewhat unnerving at times.  I, on the other hand, am often oblivious to how someone else might see a situation, which I think I've made clear in my past interactions - I relate everything to myself and how I feel and don't usually consider where someone else might be coming from unless it's pointed out to me. Then I feel like a self-absorbed asshole.

This is just a personal observation I've seen with these two types.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Doll said:


> A 2 is more outwardly engaging and other-people-oriented, whereas a 4 is a withdrawn type and is more apt to want others to seek them out. 2s can usually tell me exactly how I'm feeling, which is somewhat unnerving at times.  I, on the other hand, am often oblivious to how someone else might see a situation, which I think I've made clear in my past interactions - I relate everything to myself and how I feel and don't usually consider where someone else might be coming from unless it's pointed out to me. Then I feel like a self-absorbed asshole.
> 
> This is just a personal observation I've seen with these two types.


Okay, but the behavior you were talking about in the quote was being open about _your own pain_, which I think is a more self-absorbed type of behavior. A type 2 might do it as well, but I dunno that they would be more likely to.


----------



## Watercolourful

Doll said:


> A 2 is more outwardly engaging and other-people-oriented, whereas a 4 is a withdrawn type and is more apt to want others to seek them out. 2s can usually tell me exactly how I'm feeling, which is somewhat unnerving at times.  I, on the other hand, am often oblivious to how someone else might see a situation, which I think I've made clear in my past interactions - I relate everything to myself and how I feel and don't usually consider where someone else might be coming from unless it's pointed out to me. Then I feel like a self-absorbed asshole.
> 
> This is just a personal observation I've seen with these two types.


Hunh, this is interesting. I've been wondering if my sister's a 2 for the past while (and think she probably is) but I find she doesn't express her own emotions very effectively... now that I consider it though it's more like she doesn't express them in a healthy way but everyone knows what she's feeling. 

As for other people's emotions, if she likes the person she can be very sensitive to how they're feeling and if she doesn't like them/is mad at them she can be clueless to how they actually feel but knows what to say to them to get them to react a certain way.

Not sure, though. Does this sound like 2? She thinks she's probably a 3.


----------



## Flatlander

Paradigm said:


> Geez, this tiny comment made me realize how much I want/need "reactions" (acknowledgement, replies, etc.) whenever I decide to un-hermit, and how much self-doubt I get when there's no reaction.
> 
> I imagine it's largely a human thing (the need to feel worthwhile), but would you say it's also a reactive type thing? Is the type of reaction desired more of a telling point? Or is it really just the 6 self-doubt thing?


How would you define "reactive type" if not by a need for reaction to/from the world?

Contrast that to me. I'm not a reactive type, I don't go out seeking reaction, and thus giving me a reaction, especially when I wasn't deliberately seeking one, can jar the skin off me.


----------



## Doll

Kink said:


> Okay, but the behavior you were talking about in the quote was being open about _your own pain_, which I think is a more self-absorbed type of behavior. A type 2 might do it as well, but I dunno that they would be more likely to.


Oh, I was only relating that to the type 4 in that instance - sorry if that wasn't more clear. I think a 2 could talk about their own pain, but since they aren't so focused on themselves, I don't see this as being a common behavior.


----------



## Flatlander

@Doll -

INFP or ISFP, I lean toward INFP but could see myself being wrong too because it's mostly your Fi processing that sticks out to me.


----------



## Doll

justanotherperson said:


> Hunh, this is interesting. I've been wondering if my sister's a 2 for the past while (and think she probably is) but I find she doesn't express her own emotions very effectively... now that I consider it though it's more like she doesn't express them in a healthy way but everyone knows what she's feeling.


I've found that 2s don't often express their negative feelings well. My type 2 friends actually become more aggressive, but in passive-aggressive ways. "You never call me back, I NEVER see you, I NEVER get to talk to you, you're never around! You completely missed her first step, how sad is that?" But in ways designed to make me feel guilty, without acknowledging the motivation in such actions.



> As for other people's emotions, if she likes the person she can be very sensitive to how they're feeling and if she doesn't like them/is mad at them she can be clueless to how they actually feel but knows what to say to them to get them to react a certain way.
> 
> Not sure, though. Does this sound like 2? She thinks she's probably a 3.


Is she really clueless to how they feel or does she just act clueless because she doesn't care or is angry? Because if she knows how to make them react, then it's likely she knows how they feel...

It's hard to tell what her type is just from that, but it's not inconsistent with either type, really...


----------



## Paradigm

Flatliner said:


> How would you define "reactive type" if not by a need for reaction to/from the world?
> 
> Contrast that to me. I'm not a reactive type, I don't go out seeking reaction, and thus giving me reaction can jar the skin off me.


I had the half-formed thought that types 2, 3 (and maybe 1, 9) would also feel "upset" if they didn't get any reactions either. Of course, the ways they would go about interacting, and the reactions they would want, would differ. That's why I asked it the way I did.


----------



## Doll

Flatliner said:


> @_Doll_ -
> 
> INFP or ISFP, I lean toward INFP but could see myself being wrong too because it's mostly your Fi processing that sticks out to me.


Definitely not ISFP, but INFP is a serious consideration for me at this point! Thanks for the input!


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Flatliner said:


> How would you define "reactive type" if not by a need for reaction to/from the world?
> 
> Contrast that to me. I'm not a reactive type, I don't go out seeking reaction, and thus giving me a reaction, especially when I wasn't deliberately seeking one, can jar the skin off me.


Hmm, I've been thinking about to which degree I want "reactions" from people. I mean, I expect them, but I don't always like/want them. Makes me wonder if I'm that reactive after all. =P I guess it depends, though.


----------



## Watercolourful

Doll said:


> I've found that 2s don't often express their negative feelings well. My type 2 friends actually become more aggressive, but in passive-aggressive ways. "You never call me back, I NEVER see you, I NEVER get to talk to you, you're never around! You completely missed her first step, how sad is that?" But in ways designed to make me feel guilty, without acknowledging the motivation in such actions.


Ohh. Yeah... for her it depends. She's passive aggressive with me because she knows I hate it, like she'll argue for a few seconds then say "Never mind!" and sit there looking angry and ignoring me, muttering insults under her breath. With my brother and sister she's aggressive but she never really... seems to be aware of what it is exactly that is causing her anger. So she usually won't say "You do x!" and throw it in the person's face. It's more like, "You're an idiot!" With my mom, she rolls her eyes because she know it gets her mad and she likes to do this thing where she'll act passive aggressive to get the other person to react aggressively, and then say they're overreacting. It's designed to make people mad, not guilty.




> Is she really clueless to how they feel or does she just act clueless because she doesn't care or is angry? Because if she knows how to make them react, then it's likely she knows how they feel...
> 
> It's hard to tell what her type is just from that, but it's not inconsistent with either type, really...


That's a good question, now that I think about it. Maybe less clueless about how they feel and more clueless as to why they feel a certain way. When she's angry, though, she does tend to assume the other person is angry, even if they aren't (yet).

Yeah, that makes sense, sorry. That comment just stood out to me and I've been thinking about this lately so I wanted to ask. Thanks for your input, by the way!


----------



## Flatlander

Paradigm said:


> I had the half-formed thought that types 2, 3 (and maybe 1, 9) would also feel "upset" if they didn't get any reactions either. Of course, the ways they would go about interacting, and the reactions they would want, would differ. That's why I asked it the way I did.


Hrm. I don't experience these cores for myself, though 2 as a fix exists in my makeup.

I don't think reaction in the same sense is what any of them are looking for, though. Reactive types, to me, seem to welcome a variety of reactions the world brings so they can engage with it in its full reality or fulfill the core needs or what have you, while the rest of the types are more specific in what they're looking for.


----------



## Doll

justanotherperson said:


> Ohh. Yeah... for her it depends. She's passive aggressive with me because she knows I hate it, like she'll argue for a few seconds then say "Never mind!" and sit there looking angry and ignoring me, muttering insults under her breath. With my brother and sister she's aggressive but she never really... seems to be aware of what it is exactly that is causing her anger. So she usually won't say "You do x!" and throw it in the person's face. It's more like, "You're an idiot!" With my mom, she rolls her eyes because she know it gets her mad and she likes to do this thing where she'll act passive aggressive to get the other person to react aggressively, and then say they're overreacting. It's designed to make people mad, not guilty.


Ohhhh okay. It seems she is a reactive type, then, but unsure which one. And like @Paradigm said, I don't think reactive types are the only ones who desire reactions from others... I think everyone on earth wants attention of some sort from someone. It's the details that matter.



> Yeah, that makes sense, sorry. That comment just stood out to me and I've been thinking about this lately so I wanted to ask. Thanks for your input, by the way!


Sure! You should make her fill out a questionnaire.  It helps to know your family's types. It took me a while, but I finally have mine pinned down (I think.)


----------



## -Alpha-

If anyone (especially @Cosmic Orgasm 'cause I'm a goddamn school girl fan) wants to type me, I'd be pretty hip to that. I'm mostly interested in an in depth description of the types so I can spot them on my own, but it could be an interesting perspective to hear when related to myself. My type seems to stand up to anything I read, but I could be biased in some way, wanting to think of myself in a certain light.


----------



## Watercolourful

Doll said:


> Ohhhh okay. It seems she is a reactive type, then, but unsure which one. And like @Paradigm said, I don't think reactive types are the only ones who desire reactions from others... I think everyone on earth wants attention of some sort from someone. It's the details that matter.


Yeah, I remember considering a long time ago that she might be 8 and not 2 but I think the idea got sort of shoved into the back of my head and left to collect dust when I was putting more thought into my self-typing. 

I definitely don't think the 2 possibility is dead yet just because she does a lot of 

"-tips Starbucks guy $20- OMG DID YOU SEE HOW HAPPY HE LOOKED?? I DID THAT!"

"Yeah, I solved a conflict between two of my friends. They're so happy now, I love knowing I'm the cause of it<3"

"OMG IF I DON'T HELP THAT LADY PUSH HER STROLLER UP THE HILL IT'LL BE MY FAULT SHE'S STRUGGLING BECAUSE I DIDN'T HELP OMGOMGOMGOMG"

...lol. if not core then definitely fix.



> Sure! You should make her fill out a questionnaire.  It helps to know your family's types. It took me a while, but I finally have mine pinned down (I think.)


Ahhh, I'd love to but she won't do it! She only finds typology interesting as it applies to like... fictional characters and people she knows and is less interested in knowing what it means about herself. A questionnaire would be time-consuming and the interest isn't there


----------



## Doll

justanotherperson said:


> Yeah, I remember considering a long time ago that she might be 8 and not 2 but I think the idea got sort of shoved into the back of my head and left to collect dust when I was putting more thought into my self-typing.
> 
> I definitely don't think the 2 possibility is dead yet just because she does a lot of
> 
> "-tips Starbucks guy $20- OMG DID YOU SEE HOW HAPPY HE LOOKED?? I DID THAT!"
> 
> "Yeah, I solved a conflict between two of my friends. They're so happy now, I love knowing I'm the cause of it<3"
> 
> "OMG IF I DON'T HELP THAT LADY PUSH HER STROLLER UP THE HILL IT'LL BE MY FAULT SHE'S STRUGGLING BECAUSE I DIDN'T HELP OMGOMGOMGOMG"


That sounds kind of image-focused, LOOK AT ME behavior that could be a 3 core or fix working its magic.  3s are positive and do good things, but get more out of the recognition from it than the behavior itself



> Ahhh, I'd love to but she won't do it! She only finds typology interesting as it applies to like... fictional characters and people she knows and is less interested in knowing what it means about herself. A questionnaire would be time-consuming and the interest isn't there


Awwwwww! Yes, there are plenty of people I've tried to get interested in typology who just aren't having it. Too bad.


----------



## Watercolourful

Doll said:


> That sounds kind of image-focused, LOOK AT ME behavior that could be a 3 core or fix working its magic.  3s are positive and do good things, but get more out of the recognition from it than the behavior itself


That actually makes a lot of sense now that I'm considering it. I mean, I didn't think 3 was impossible for her but I never really thought about her behavior in that area could be linked to type 3. 2 wing for sure, though, if it turns out she's a 3 after all. I tried asking her to explain why she thought she was a 3 but she never really answered me. Innnnnteresting.



> Awwwwww! Yes, there are plenty of people I've tried to get interested in typology who just aren't having it. Too bad.


Yeah  She lets me talk about it all the time though so it's not so bad<3


----------



## -Alpha-

I appreciated the thanks, but unsure as to why they were given. 

I think you're both nice people also.


----------



## Watercolourful

-Alpha- said:


> I appreciated the thanks, but unsure as to why they were given.
> 
> I think you're both nice people also.


It was sort of a "this person's cool, someone respond to him" thing because I didn't have anything to say on the subject myself.


----------



## hal0hal0

mushr00m said:


> Ouch, relates to you. I've had that thing where I get all paranoid because I relate too much back to myself like if something happens to someone that puts them in a bad mood or something, I think, what did I do? They are mad at me, it's all my fault until I say to them, have I pissed you off? And they say, What?!! (had nothing to do with me in the first place, lolol!) Rinse, repeat... It sounds shamefully self obsessed, more self punishment. *argh shrug*


I know you and I have talked about how we're not fond of the IXFP "I'm-a-hippie-doormat-that-just-wants-everyone-to-smoke-a-peace-pipe-and-sing-kumbayah-under-the-stars-ladeedadeeda" stereotype, but I'll [hesitantly] admit that there is *some* validity to it, in part because I think the nature of Fi is weighing values through a heavily subjective lens, which lends itself well to excessive concern for how WE ourselves are valued. I've often wondered if subjective functions in general are more self-conscious, because the subject is a part of the self or the self's perspective. Just a thought. 

Whereas I suspect Fe is more inclined to get swept up in the feeling "out there" due to its orientation towards the object (hence the "flighty and wishy-washy stereotype holds some truth perhaps).

This actually brings me to a point I've been meaning to ask you about reactivity, which is whether the reactive types are prone to "playing devil's advocate" or giving a adversarial response. This is sorta stretching into derail territory, so I'll refer to @_Kink_ 's thread http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/240665-reactivity.html if you have any thoughts on the matter (and yeah, there's sorta that funny thing of playing devil's advocate to another's devil's advocate and so on and so on... XD.

Loosely, I was thinking:


*Positive outlook* = false positivity (i.e., "problem? what problem? I don't see any problem!") 
*Competency triad* = false objectivity (i.e., putting aside the self, being objective and to some extent, removing one's ethos from the equation). 
*Reactive triad* = false negativity (i.e., everything's a problem, playing devil's advocate, etc.) 
 
~~~~~

Anyways, to rerail this a bit, I don't see @_Animal_ as a core 7. I see either a case for core 4 or core 1 (Cliff Notes version since I'm kinda tired right know: She has a lot of personal integrity and proudfulness [*not *in the 2 sense, btw] that I think is a shared attribute common to 4 and 1. Both, after all, are ideal seekers so to some extent, I think both may have an aversion to complacency or personal stagnancy (as opposed to say, 9's indolence), thus, there might be a desire to constantly be in motion a la phoenix.

The nature of positive outlookers is a sort of self-forgetting or turning away from the unpleasant aspects, often within oneself, which is not what I've seen here or in private conversation with the, uh, RAWR-meister. 

^yes, animal, I just came up with RawrMeister just now. It's too perfect to leave out.

~~~~~

One final thought: I don't think enneagram need "control" who we are. I think 4s may be _*prone *_to poor self-images or inferiority complexes as in falling into that trap perpetually, however I do not believe that one needs to be a slave to their enneagram type. Thus, the outward _*appearance *_of being superior, bragging, etc. might belie the inner doubts, insecurities or feelings of inferiority (i.e., classically, the Cp 6 vs phobic 6 thingamajig... I do not believe this type of dyad is exclusive to 6s). To me, suggesting that 4s must always self-defeat and be incapable of overcoming barriers would be defeatist mentality which is not something I like or stand for (although admittedly, yeah, I'm probably a grade A, prime hypocrite in this regard... "oh, you're a 'glass-half-empty' person? Well, I don't even have a glass!"<<< Do I like that compulsion? Fuck no. That's why I don't bitch about things, for the most part).

Are barriers difficult to overcome? Yes, but not impossible. 

The enneagram type represents for me, a _*narcotic*_, in essence (NOT in the type 7 sense, but the more classical sense). Narcosis comes from narcissism which involves a perpetual state of entrancement (classically, with one's own self-image, hence Narcissisus). What matters in narcissism is the _trance_-like state, in which one is bewitched by the coveted object (which is often the Self or the semblance of Self).










Marshall McLuhan, for instance, the famed media theorist that predicted the internet, often talked about technologies (which are extensions of ourselves) and the way we could "numb" ourselves into what he coined the "narcissistic trance." For instance, scrolling mindlessly through Facebook is a clear instance of the narcissistic trance. Of course, technology is neutral in the sense that Facebook isn't "evil" (there is plenty of good to come out of it), it just has more to do with how our psyches interacted with said technology.

In a sense, McLuhan's media theories are every bit about psychology as they are technology. Similarly, just as McLuhan talked of technologies as "extensions of ourselves," things such as enneagram type can be thought of as a "technology" in a sense (although it's more like biological software in this case).

But I've derailed this thread enough, lol.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Paradigm said:


> Geez, this tiny comment made me realize how much I want/need "reactions" (acknowledgement, replies, etc.) whenever I decide to un-hermit, and how much self-doubt I get when there's no reaction.
> 
> I imagine it's largely a human thing (the need to feel worthwhile), but would you say it's also a reactive type thing? Is the type of reaction desired more of a telling point? Or is it really just a 6 self-doubt thing?


I think this is a really pertinent question. I'm trying to put myself in a situation where I say something and don't get any response or acknowledgment, and when that happens, I just go back and start wondering if I somehow embarrassed myself or said something the wrong way.. I don't tend to doubt _what _I said in terms of content, or the idea behind my statement but perhaps the presentation of it. Maybe if I said it differently, or if I articulated my point better. 

I think everyone wants a reaction, that is simply human, though reactive types are more likely to push for it in their own way...?


----------



## HighClassSavage

Would like some input on my type! Currently typed as 6w7 - 8w7 - 4w3 sx/sp. Only types I'm considering are 6w7, 7w6, and 7w8. Also, having trouble determining between sx/sp and sp/sx. Social last is certain.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Kink said:


> So this is a few pages back, but I figure it's at least somewhat on topic, and it seems a bit off to me. Why would a 2 be more likely to be more open and expressive than a 4?





Doll said:


> A 2 is more outwardly engaging and other-people-oriented, whereas a 4 is a withdrawn type and is more apt to want others to seek them out. 2s can usually tell me exactly how I'm feeling, which is somewhat unnerving at times.  I, on the other hand, am often oblivious to how someone else might see a situation, which I think I've made clear in my past interactions - I relate everything to myself and how I feel and don't usually consider where someone else might be coming from unless it's pointed out to me. Then I feel like a self-absorbed asshole.
> 
> This is just a personal observation I've seen with these two types.


Yes, I agree with this completely. I think part of the 4's withdrawn style is to want to be chased (not in the playing hard to get way - which I absolutely despise) but part of my reactivity is 'hiding' and seeing if someone cares enough to go after me. Maybe by acting just a bit more distant, which isn't exactly the healthiest way to go about coping with something D: It's just an impulse when something bothers me. In a situation that isn't a conflict, this manifests itself in not opening up completely, because I need to feel like the person _wants _to know about me. 

Doll, what you said about not seeing how a situation might come across for others is what makes me lean INFP for you as well, because that seems like a Fi dominant thing. You see things through a very personal, subjective lens that I don't see an extrovert doing. Though for me, it's more that I _can _see their perspective - I can see *all *perspectives if I put my mind to it, it just doesn't come automatically because my own feelings overshadow that.


----------



## drmiller100

Kink said:


> No details? :tongue:


subject: my ex and her Sp.

She is an ISFJ. Probably not a very healthy one.

She is very concerned about money. She talked at me for 12 years every night about money, and her dissatisfaction was apparent. At one point I made 150k a year, and that was cause for concern. At one point I made 5k a year, same concerns. 

I could not "fix" her concerns. Now that we have been divorced for 5 years with clear legal documents in place she still calls me twice a month or so to talk about her concerns. 

It is what it is. She will likely not change. I will likely not change. She is doing the best she can.


----------



## Doll

kaleidoscope said:


> Yes, I agree with this completely. I think part of the 4's withdrawn style is to want to be chased (not in the playing hard to get way - which I absolutely despise) but part of my reactivity is 'hiding' and seeing if someone cares enough to go after me. Maybe by acting just a bit more distant, which isn't exactly the healthiest way to go about coping with something D: It's just an impulse when something bothers me. In a situation that isn't a conflict, this manifests itself in not opening up completely, because I need to feel like the person _wants _to know about me.
> 
> Doll, what you said about not seeing how a situation might come across for others is what makes me lean INFP for you as well, because that seems like a Fi dominant thing. You see things through a very personal, subjective lens that I don't see an extrovert doing. Though for me, it's more that I _can _see their perspective - I can see *all *perspectives if I put my mind to it, it just doesn't come automatically because my own feelings overshadow that.


This is true! When I'm presented with a situation, I don't see any other side but my own - however, once I become aware of someone else's point of view, I can understand it. Does that make sense? It's like, my immediate impulse isn't to wonder what others are thinking, but to assess how I feel about something and what my response is. Given time, I do consider someone else's side.

(Although I'm still angry about my co-worker's behavior - I already told you about this - last night and I refuse to see his side of things for the time being!)


----------



## -Alpha-

Doll said:


> That sounds kind of image-focused, LOOK AT ME behavior that could be a 3 core or fix working its magic.  3s are positive and do good things, but get more out of the recognition from it than the behavior itself
> 
> 
> 
> Awwwwww! Yes, there are plenty of people I've tried to get interested in typology who just aren't having it. Too bad.


Seems a little more 2 than 3. I think a 3 would be more interested in cultivating a badge that lasts and provides long term admiration for themselves as opposed to a fleeting, shallow interaction with a Starbucks guy. That would be what got them to being type 3 in the first place, I'd wager.

Also, glad everyone likes me. That's cool, but it really was an honest inquiry.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

kaleidoscope said:


> Yes, I agree with this completely. I think part of the 4's withdrawn style is to want to be chased (not in the playing hard to get way - which I absolutely despise) but part of my reactivity is 'hiding' and seeing if someone cares enough to go after me. Maybe by acting just a bit more distant, which isn't exactly the healthiest way to go about coping with something D: It's just an impulse when something bothers me. In a situation that isn't a conflict, this manifests itself in not opening up completely, because I need to feel like the person _wants _to know about me.


Heh, yeah. I'm more likely to just over-share right off the bat if I get the chance, because I don't have the patience to wait for a person who _might _care enough to "chase me," but then I'm also not a 4-core. =P I just like talking about myself (even in negative ways). :blushed: Really though, it's a bit frustrating if I feel like the other person don't have the right impression of me, so in the end it's best to just set them straight myself.


----------



## Doll

-Alpha- said:


> Seems a little more 2 than 3. I think a 3 would be more interested in cultivating a badge that lasts and provides long term admiration for themselves as opposed to a fleeting, shallow interaction with a Starbucks guy. That would be what got them to being type 3 in the first place, I'd wager.


Possibly.


----------



## Watercolourful

-Alpha- said:


> Seems a little more 2 than 3. I think a 3 would be more interested in cultivating a badge that lasts and provides long term admiration for themselves as opposed to a fleeting, shallow interaction with a Starbucks guy. That would be what got them to being type 3 in the first place, I'd wager.
> 
> Also, glad everyone likes me. That's cool, but it really was an honest inquiry.


Yeah, I see what you're saying. I'm curious if the long term status could be with my family because she makes sure that there's witnesses she knows before she does things, or she'll talk about it to us endlessly afterwards.


----------



## -Alpha-

justanotherperson said:


> Yeah, I see what you're saying. I'm curious if the long term status could be with my family because she makes sure that there's witnesses she knows before she does things, or she'll talk about it to us endlessly afterwards.


Yeah, I think it would primarily depend on her actual intentions concerning it. I know I wouldn't do that, but that's due to not believing people capable of appreciating generosity and such.

Your sister is ENTP?


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

justanotherperson said:


> Yeah, I remember considering a long time ago that she might be 8 and not 2 but I think the idea got sort of shoved into the back of my head and left to collect dust when I was putting more thought into my self-typing.
> 
> I definitely don't think the 2 possibility is dead yet just because she does a lot of
> 
> "-tips Starbucks guy $20- OMG DID YOU SEE HOW HAPPY HE LOOKED?? I DID THAT!"
> 
> "Yeah, I solved a conflict between two of my friends. They're so happy now, I love knowing I'm the cause of it<3"
> 
> "OMG IF I DON'T HELP THAT LADY PUSH HER STROLLER UP THE HILL IT'LL BE MY FAULT SHE'S STRUGGLING BECAUSE I DIDN'T HELP OMGOMGOMGOMG"
> 
> ...lol. if not core then definitely fix.


Uhm...

I actually do something a lot like this, minus the "I did that!" portion...(I feel like an attention whore if I do that, and that makes me question whether it was really an act of kindness, and then and then and then...XD)





> Ahhh, I'd love to but she won't do it! She only finds typology interesting as it applies to like... fictional characters and people she knows and is less interested in knowing what it means about herself. A questionnaire would be time-consuming and the interest isn't there


Hmmmmm.

What if you shot her like, one question every couple days? XD


----------



## -Alpha-

Doll said:


> Possibly.


What's your tri anyway? I'm normally pretty good about this, but I'm having trouble figuring out what type of person you are.

Post quoted for notification purposes.

EDIT: If you'd like to discuss how they manifest or how you interpret yourself, that's even better.


----------



## Watercolourful

-Alpha- said:


> Yeah, I think it would primarily depend on her actual intentions concerning it. I know I wouldn't do that, but that's due to not believing people capable of appreciating generosity and such.
> 
> Your sister is ENTP?


She is, yes. How'd you know?


----------



## Watercolourful

Chained Divinity said:


> Uhm...
> 
> I actually do something a lot like this, minus the "I did that!" portion...(I feel like an attention whore if I do that, and that makes me question whether it was really an act of kindness, and then and then and then...XD)


Ohh, that's interesting.



> Hmmmmm.
> 
> What if you shot her like, one question every couple days? XD


Hahahaha oh my god I should actually do that xD


----------



## Doll

-Alpha- said:


> What's your tri anyway? I'm normally pretty good about this, but I'm having trouble figuring out what type of person you are.


You mean my tritype? It's 4w3 - 7w6 - 9w8.


----------



## mimesis

Doll said:


> You excessively engage others, to the point of being so open in the forum that it's overwhelming.


May I ask why someone excessively and openly engaging others is overwhelming to you?




Doll said:


> You don't withdraw and wait to be sought out for help/advice.


This fascinates me. I know it's mentioned in descriptions, but I can't help but wonder how you can tell someone doesn't withdraw and wait to be sought out? 

And how does this strategy work? Does it actually work? 



Doll said:


> You're also very aware of your impact on others and their feelings, to the point of being overly-saccharine and seemingly-superficial.


I don't see the relation, as you could also argue that the last could be indicative of not being sure of impact, being So last, and so applying a one size fits all strategy, and playing not to lose. 




Doll said:


> In short, you seem like a pleaser in almost every sense of the word. That isn't a bad thing, because you are pleasant. I don't think you realize that type 2 can be just as dark and intense as type 4, especially when instinctual stackings are taken into consideration.


So far you seem to take things much at face value and assume that it's also their intention. 

But for instance, you are giving an impression of competence, like there is no doubt in your mind. At face value, that display doesn't look like someone who feels innately inadequate or does it? Or is that constricted to the appropriate threads, where it's socially appropriate, or adequate to feel inadequate? You don't need to answer this, just making a point about impression management.



Doll said:


> You over-express your feelings, especially when it involves emotional states.


When a Four says you are over-expressing your feelings...that's like a 3 saying you brag too much to be a 3. :tongue:




Doll said:


> You praise and flatter others excessively (and this is often encouraged by the reciprocating party).


Do you see this behavior also with other twos, like on the 2 board? Then I should spend more time there, as I liked to be pleased! It's true she is pleasing, but I don't recall her e.v.e.r. expecting me to return her a favor, which btw wouldn't be very odd for a 4 (line to 2) anyway. 

Naranjo made a relation between a 2 and a narcissistic parent (father vs daughter, like in her case), to explain a context of cause and effect. But for the same reason some 4s may behave a bit like 1s, having been raised by authoritarian parents. There may be some conditioning deep at the core, but this doesn't necessarily type someone as such. (Else all siblings would type the same, wouldn't).

And how about the passion of pride? Sure, she may display taking pride in being an artist and a rock star, but that's more about personal significance and identity. That's as Four as it gets.

And it's not about the occupation but attitude towards it. Which strikes me as "romantic(ist)". Which you may see a lot but certainly not every artist is like that. 

She's on of the most expressive about their (personal) significance and identity, but yeah, and I can imagine that's a bit overwhelming.

Anyway I'm going to stop here as I feel these arguments say more about you than about @Animal. There are too many things that is just conjecture, suggesting observer bias, where the speculations on underlying motivations are a bit superficial.

I don't see how your Sx would relate more to 4 and hers to 2. Hers match well with the masochist aspects of 4, and savior, where yours actually matches more with 2, seeking to be favor-ite and privileged (entitlement) over the other (the "femme fatale" wasn't it?). Although I am aware that this could be a disintegration influence, and stress driven (desiring to be most significant other, e.v.e.r. where ever). I mean when you think about it, a 4 demanding the "rescuer/ savior" to completely give themselves to the 4? That would be an interesting role-play!

Aside from this reply I see no reason to reconsider her type. But do carry on debating it.


----------



## -Alpha-

justanotherperson said:


> She is, yes. How'd you know?


Sort of a good guess. I don't know that she is for a fact, but I know you think she is based on some of the things you say about her.

#introvertedintermission



Doll said:


> You mean my tritype? It's 4w3 - 7w6 - 9w8.


Cool. What's the idea of type 7 and how do you experience it?

I don't really have a head type preference, really, but I chose 5 because I'm terrified of people thinking I'm stupid or actually being stupid.


----------



## drmiller100

-Alpha- said:


> I chose 5 because I'm terrified of people thinking I'm stupid or actually being stupid.


what does it say about me that I encourage people thinking I'm stupid?

(smiles)

maybe cuz i'm just a dumb mechanic I don't care.

(smiles)


----------



## Doll

@Animal, @Cosmic Orgasm - 

I'm not going to beat the dead horse and say that all artists aren't 4s. Obviously we all know that. There are 4s who are engineers, firefighters, and who work boring 8-5 desk jobs. 4s are peeeeople!

The "ad nauseum" is something that has nothing to do with being type 4. 

I know you're not tying to make an argument for type, but this does have to be pointed out. "Living and breathing" art and being a "symbol" is implying that you have integrated these traits into yourself. Your identification with tigers and phoenixes, well idk, a lot of people identify with things. I over-identify with things that I tend not to talk about at all in the forum. Those things are a source of shame for me - because, identifying yourself with something or someone is still identifying with something outside of yourself. So I am constantly wondering if my affinity toward fictional characters/real people/other things I'm just not going to talk about is consistent with my true and authentic self.

However, the thing is, when you do discuss being a 4, your art plays a large role in it. Passionate artists exist in all types. SO many artists feel the exact same way you do, that they embody and pour themselves into their work. Your art and how you relate to it should not determine your core type. You have specific traits you use to define yourself, which I think is something a core 4 would shy away from. 4s are aware to the point where they KNOW their self-image is on shaky ground. They are constantly redefining themselves and picking apart who they are, because they are dissatisfied with their social persona. 4s look at others' social ease and feel envious; I do this, even on a forum, which seems silly and pointless but it is what it is. When I relate to (insert nameless name here because I am embarrassed), I want to unify with that thing/person and take those traits into myself. However, at the same time, I'm tormented by the idea that I'm being "fake" or not true to my SELF... 

..And then I wonder, who IS my true self? What do I REALLY feel? Who am I REALLY? 

You seem so comfortable identifying as an artist, phoenix, tiger, and you act as though you know yourself well. But where are your struggles with self-image, identity, self-esteem and self-consciousness? I'm not talking about the past, or times when you have experienced these (you couldn't find a soul out there who hasn't experienced this) - I'm referring to the underlying issues that a core 4 struggles with daily. 

You embody the type of person someone would want to be like (I mean jesus fuck, I want to be called a rock star, that's fucking awesome), but I don't know how much of that is genuine self-assurance or because you honestly don't know who you are and you're using art to define yourself BECAUSE of self-image issues. It's difficult to know things like this over a forum.

Every type is inherently weak, but all I've seen you do is talk about how you've overcome tragedy in your past. That's something you and @Cosmic Orgasm share. You're also both artists. Obviously 4 is going to be the automatic go-to type for people who both identify with art and having "risen from the ashes" - but the pride you experience in these accomplishments are something most 4s only aspire to feel and identify with. I have moments of pride, but it's not my go-to emotion. It's not who I am. It's not what I'm about. I overly-romanticize my past because, to me, it isn't particularly interesting and this is devastating. I have this picture of who I want to be and if someone contradicts it or perceives it as less than what I want, I'm practically crippled by that.
@Animal, you have plenty of SX emotion, but I think you're blending them with romanticized 4 descriptions. You don't seem to experience envy. You don't need it. You don't seem to experience shame. You don't need it. And you can't explain the lack of these core issues away with fixes, wings, or instinctual stacking. I'm sure you have experienced envy and shame in your lifetime, but for type four it is a pervasive issue that is a constant struggle. And there is no physical manifestation of any of it; it's all internal and comes from self-doubt and self-uncertainty. 4s identify with emotional states and that is why they can appear so volatile; the labels, art or otherwise, have little to nothing to do with it. 
@Cosmic Orgasm - I remember our Skype conversation well, and I think you were able to articulate the difference between identification with art/pain/tragedy and how that relates or doesn't relate to type 4. I do think that your image fix is still 3 (I think you do, too), but your wing is obviously 4 because of how you internalize your experiences. That's just my personal two cents


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> 4s are peeeeople!


People.. *scratches head* .. oh.. you mean humans?



> *You don't seem to experience envy. You don't need it. You don't seem to experience shame. You don't need it.*


 I don't experience shame and envy.... like the humans do... 



> *I'm sure you have experienced envy and shame in your lifetime,*


Are you accusing me of having been human for a couple minutes here and there in my lifetime?? Why would I do that when my race is so superior that we don't _need_ these things....?

All people experience shame, rage and fear as a regular part of their life. It's not something that anyone experiences "in their lifetime." These are all mechanisms that are constantly at work in all people.

But I am an alien so it doesn't apply to me. On my home planet we just express ourselves artistically all day and nobody has any shame except for a couple moments in their lifetime. Then music comes spilling out of our skin and we turn to rainbows and unicorns.

roud:



____

(sorry, I couldn't help myself xD. You did make some good points though.)

____

I'll get back to the arguments for real soon. You, @mimesis, and @hal0hal0 have all said some good points which I will address, @Cosmic Orgasm and @Paradigm have said things related to theory which I will address, and I really do appreciate all the input very muchly.


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> People.. *scratches head* .. oh.. you mean humans?


Well, I am a unicorn tbh.



> I don't experience shame and envy.... like the humans do...


ME EITHER. And I breathe underwater in my own glass castle.



> Are you accusing me of having been human for a couple minutes here and there in my lifetime?? Why would I do that when my race is so superior that we don't _need_ these things....?


FORGIVE ME oh Superior. Let me sink back under the water and resume my lowly existence as a sea-unicorn.



> All people experience shame, rage and fear as a regular part of their life. It's not something that anyone experiences "in their lifetime." These are all mechanisms that are constantly at work in all people.


:shocked:

NO WAY. Next you're going to tell me that everyone is happy at some point, too! My reality: busted.



> But I am an alien so it doesn't apply to me. On my home planet we just express ourselves artistically all day and nobody has any shame except for a couple moments in their lifetime. Then music comes spilling out of our skin and we turn to rainbows and unicorns.


No. I am the unicorn. You can turn into a narwal. 



> (sorry, I couldn't help myself xD. You did make some good points though.)


Thanks!



> I'll get back to the arguments for real soon. You, @_mimesis_, and @_hal0hal0_ have all said some good points which I will address, @_Cosmic Orgasm_ and @_Paradigm_ have said things related to theory which I will address, and I really do appreciate all the input very muchly.


I admire your openness.


----------



## Sina

@_Animal_

The central point was that your post being as convoluted as it was made it difficult to see the reason behind addressing it to me when my own point was different than what you portrayed. It was, as you'd say, a "misrepresentation".  
If it was general, sure. 

See, it's very regrettable that people do the whole condescending.. oh not all artists are 4s yanno...*pat pat* thing. It really reflects on their own ignorance and stupidity. I can see it being frustrating. It's a lil like oh you know not everyone who overcomes adversity is an 8, which insults the intelligence of a typee and also their understanding of themselves and type. In your case, I see no reason to believe you type at 4 only because of art. I would've said this even if you hadn't mistyped at other types. 

As for preventing others from discussion, no one can make @_mimesis_ stray from what he wants to do. Mwahaha~  He'll do it, regardless of what anyone says, and in my own case, he sure as fuck wasn't made to curtail his expressions. So, you don't have to worry about him. He's among the few people here who have ever challenged me and made me reconsider my stance, and I love the shit out of it. I wouldn't want it any other way. As for others, well if their arguments have merit, they will not fall apart in the face of retards lecturing you about 4 and art. 
@_Doll_

Yes, I am aware of the distinction. Although, I am, in the context of core type, looking at whether the 4 influence is from a wing necessarily (and I have much more pertinent reasons for reconsidering 3 so this alone wouldn't be enough) or commonalities between 4 and 7, considering the latter can also be emotionally indulgent and embody pain artistically and more etc.


----------



## Animal

LOL! I laughed so hard, especially this - I lost it -


Doll said:


> NO WAY. Next you're going to tell me that everyone is happy at some point, too! My reality: busted.


:laughing:

*hugs*


----------



## Animal

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> If it was general, sure.


It was. I only skimmed because I don't have much time now but I saw that coming up over and over and was like..FACEPALM lol. I know that _you_ know I'm more intelligent than that.



> See, it's very regrettable that people do the whole condescending.. oh not all artists are 4s yanno...*pat pat* thing. It really reflects on their own ignorance and stupidity. I can see it being frustrating. It's a lil like oh you know not everyone who overcomes adversity is an 8, which insults the intelligence of a typee and also their understanding of themselves and type. In your case, I see no reason to believe you type at 4 because of art. I would've said this even if you hadn't mistyped at other types.


Thank you *huggggg* yes you are right. You know me too well for that 



> As for preventing others from discussion, no one can make @_mimesis_ stray from what he wants to do. He'll do it, regardless of what anyone says, and in my own case, he sure as fuck wasn't made to curtail his expressions. So, you don't have to worry about him. He's among the few people here who have ever challenged me, and I love the shit out of it. As for others, well if their arguments have merit, they will not fall apart in the face of retards lecturing you about 4 and art.


True. Mimesis can hold his own for sure.  I was just frustrated on behalf of the topic.. not that he was being challenged. I love watching you and mimesis go at it.... *wishing the skype emoticon (inlove) existed here*

:kitteh:


----------



## TreeBob

Hi everyone, how's it going? I think this is the first time I have read this thread. Some interesting stuff in here.


----------



## Doll

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Yes, I am aware of the distinction. Although, I am, in the context of core type, looking at whether the 4 influence is from a wing necessarily (and I have much more pertinent reasons for reconsidering 3 so this alone wouldn't be enough) or commonalities between 4 and 7, considering the latter can also be emotionally indulgent and embody pain artistically and more etc.


Ohh I see. 

I think when it comes to comparing type 7 and 4, 7s are extremely underrepresented because a lot of people see them as shallow and superficial. I know you're obviously not one of these people; I'm excited to actually have a decent 4 vs. 7 discussion openly on a forum. Especially where it concerns art. Where the two are concerned, I think a 7 would be more interested in MAKING SOMETHING from their pain, creating a manifestation DESPITE of it or BECAUSE of it. Showing that they've overcome. A 4 might be more inclined to be honest about their experience, even if it paints them as the victim (and might even enjoy being seen that way). 

For example, there's this scene in a show I LOVE where a character is blasted by her editor for a memoir she's written. The editor wishes for her to show how she's overcome her experiences, transformed them, grown from them, and refuses to help her when all the author can say is, "I've survived." I think while both types want to find something meaningful in experience, a 4 is more interested in exposing the ugliness while a 7 will expose the ugliness, but then show what _they've done with it_. There's a future-oriented approach. A 4 navel-gazes, lingers, looks longingly at the past and what is missed/already gone, while a 7 is like "yes that happened to me, but I am a survivor and I have used my experiences for something." It's a more wide-sweeping viewpoint, less internal and constrictive than a 4 might employ.

This is the scene I was talking about: never pay the reaper with love only., 45/50*Jenny Schecter moments I feel related to The...


----------



## Sina

TreeBob said:


> Hi everyone, how's it going? I think this is the first time I have read this thread. Some interesting stuff in here.


IT's going great. As a welcome gift, I type you as a 9w1-4w3-5w4 sp/so. <3


----------



## Doll

TreeBob said:


> Hi everyone, how's it going? I think this is the first time I have read this thread. Some interesting stuff in here.


Going pretty good, how're you??


----------



## Sina

Doll said:


> Ohh I see.
> 
> I think when it comes to comparing type 7 and 4, 7s are extremely underrepresented because a lot of people see them as shallow and superficial. I know you're obviously not one of these people; I'm excited to actually have a decent 4 vs. 7 discussion openly on a forum. Especially where it concerns art. Where the two are concerned, I think a 7 would be more interested in MAKING SOMETHING from their pain, creating a manifestation DESPITE of it or BECAUSE of it. Showing that they've overcome. A 4 might be more inclined to be honest about their experience, even if it paints them as the victim (and might even enjoy being seen that way).
> 
> For example, there's this scene in a show I LOVE where a character is blasted by her editor for a memoir she's written. The editor wishes for her to show how she's overcome her experiences, transformed them, grown from them, and refuses to help her when all the author can say is, "I've survived." I think while both types want to find something meaningful in experience, a 4 is more interested in exposing the ugliness while a 7 will expose the ugliness, but then show what _they've done with it_. There's a future-oriented approach. A 4 navel-gazes, lingers, looks longingly at the past and what is missed/already gone, while a 7 is like "yes that happened to me, but I am a survivor and I have used my experiences for something." It's a more wide-sweeping viewpoint, less internal and constrictive than a 4 might employ.
> 
> This is the scene I was talking about: never pay the reaper with love only., 45/50*Jenny Schecter moments I feel related to The...


Truly, this deserves a thread of its own on the main forum. I'd be especially curious to hear from @hal0hal0 and @OrangeAppled. 
I would also be more than happy to contribute after contemplating this further.

Some of the above points are excellent.


----------



## TreeBob

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> IT's going great. As a welcome gift, I type you as a 9w1-4w3-5w4 sp/so. <3


Wow that is an interesting typing! I have always fancied part of me being a 5. Not sure I can deal with SP first though. I will miss you 8



Doll said:


> Going pretty good, how're you??


Not bad, I have been really busy with everything in RL. Another baby on the way and all the kids are a bit demanding with all the summer activities. I don't really get to post on the forum anymore. I just come here and do administrative work


----------



## Doll

TreeBob said:


> Not bad, I have been really busy with everything in RL. Another baby on the way and all the kids are a bit demanding with all the summer activities. I don't really get to post on the forum anymore. I just come here and do administrative work


Aww, congratulations. <3


----------



## hal0hal0

Just a thought but might 4s have trouble relating to other 4s? The point is "I don't belong" or "I do not have what you do" which is part of its reactivity so by its very nature, Envy can run around in circles and adopt a myriad of appearances if it is constantly bouncing off the envy of others (i.e., I envy what you have, you envy what I have and we're all miserable. HOORAY!). 
@mimesis I think this is the 4's line to 2: In its best form, this is genuine flattery and complementing others on what they've done. In its worst form? LMAO pity mongering masquerading as flattery like: 

"Your life is way better than mine." 
"No, yours is..." etc.

What if modesty becomes a new form of arrogance? What if "weird" is the new normal? What if "depth" becomes the new shallows? What if "obscure" becomes the new mainstream? Or as Andy Warhol put it: "I am a deeply superficial person." What does it mean to be fake or superficial??? I'm so confused Argh!

 (for me it comes down to a feeling, but even that is not black and white. For instance, I may have a friend I simply adore but others cannot see what is so awesome about that person and it drives me nuts, upsets me, and kinda hurts, even).



Animal said:


> Arguing about 4s and art at this point, is detracting from the possibility of discussing art and what it MEANS to me, which is very important, because of arguments about stereotypes. It's starting to upset me since I really don't think that is what he was trying to say.
> 
> Yeah, WE ALL KNOW not all 4s are artists. ;P Fine. Let him speak of how I express myself and my identity. That one hang-up is just..it's been hit over the head so much recently that I feel like if I even talk about what my art means to me, I'll be "accused" of over-emphasizing a 4ish stereotype when I have been talking about my art all along and was never accused of such before. And likewise, people who are trying to make a deeper point about how I express myself, are accused of using a stereotype, and I really don't htink Mimesis was doing that.


Yes. Agreed. 

I see the same thing happening with type 2 to some extent, insofar as the seductive/manipulative angle, while absolutely important, seems to be overriding the archetypal "helper" role as of late or at least subverting the possibility that a 2 might genuinely CARE about whoever it's helping. My grandmother I believe is a type 2 (I've often wondered if Chinese culture has strong Soc 2w3 influences... there seems to be a lot of Pride insofar as saving face, networking, flattery, and apparent "humbleness"). I'll be the first to admit that my grandmother's tendencies towards guilt-tripping, histrionics, etc. as a means of control (for such a small lady, she is *extremely* powerful and capable of exerting influence in this regard), DO make me suspicious of her motives, seeing her as manipulative, etc. (long before learning enneagram btw).

BUT, to suggest that my grandmother's self-forgetting and excessive concern for others is "all an act" or "fake" (which to me is implied when we start throwing around seductive/manipulative as descriptors) is something I *cannot *accept. She DOES care about us. I have to believe that. Yes, the type compulsion may cause neglect in certain areas, set up consistent patterns, etc., but I do not believe this ought to extend to the person themselves, nor should we use behavior/traits to preemptively dismiss a case one way or the other.

~~~~~

I won't put words in @mimesis mouth since I want to see more of what he has to say, but just a quick point that I think the line to 2 can be a sort of repression of needs, as well, stemming from the 4's inferiority complex (i.e., "I'm not worthy of love! Fine, I will go without it"). It gets painted as a sort of self-sacrifice, but the silly-ass 4 might be prone to idealizing this aspect of itself, whereas I don't think the 2 is quite so self-aware of this persona. Both types can be prone to a sense of inferiority, with the 4 more inwardly feeling inferior whereas the 2 more outwardly, I think (hence, that subversive/femme fatale angle of portraying "harmlessness" or giving the impression of subservience (i.e., the helper).

~~~~~

I think looking at the volume of disclosure is a red herring or at least extremely subjective, because you do not know what they are NOT telling you. I agree there are cases that are obvious, but I do not think @Animal is one of those in part because of the complexity and unique circumstances of her life (so as I said, either core 1 or 4 are *possible *from my perspective; I see a frustration triad influence).

~~~~~

So with regards to enneagram type, I've started to think about it as a fulcrum or axis. It is balanced upon a razor's edge*, and that razor exists in the mind. We can fall to the left or fall to the right, even if the point of fixation remains our "center". A tendency towards certain patterns does not, in my mind, preclude the capability to transcend those personal barriers. I dislike the idea that 4s self-defeat or suggesting this as a guaranteed "requirement" that all 4s suck at life or more importantly, _*think *_they suck at life.

Call me an idealist, but I _*have to believe*_ that people are capable of overcoming barriers within their life, if they so choose. I guess given the choice between freedom of choice vs. slave to compulsion... I'd choose freedom. Put another way, if enneagram is akin to a kneejerk reaction, then it is possible to control or defy that compulsion, like a dude walking calmly across hot coals:










Difficult? Scary? Yes.
Impossible? No.

~~~~~

*Speaking of razor's edges @Cosmic Orgasm this is my favorite Brando quote in a movie. His delivery is so eerie it makes me want to tear my skin off:


----------



## Doll

@hal0hal0 - This is a completely superficial response to your in depth post but omg, I have always wanted to firewalk.


----------



## hal0hal0

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> As for preventing others from discussion, no one can make @_mimesis_ stray from what he wants to do. Mwahaha~  He'll do it, regardless of what anyone says, and in my own case, he sure as fuck wasn't made to curtail his expressions. So, you don't have to worry about him. He's among the few people here who have ever challenged me and made me reconsider my stance, and I love the shit out of it. I wouldn't want it any other way. As for others, well if their arguments have merit, they will not fall apart in the face of retards lecturing you about 4 and art.


So much agreement with this; one of my favorite members on the forum. I don't always understand what @mimesis is getting at right off the bat, but his insights are so often refreshing and challenging that I take a look whenever I can.

So to you mims, keep on doing what you're doing :


----------



## Bricolage

hal0hal0 said:


> So much agreement with this; one of my favorite members on the forum. I don't always understand what @_mimesis_ is getting at right off the bat, but his insights are so often refreshing and challenging that I take a look whenever I can.
> 
> So to you mims, keep on doing what you're doing :


I liked the 2003-2007 Leo more. :dry:


----------



## hal0hal0

Doll said:


> For example, there's this scene in a show I LOVE where a character is blasted by her editor for a memoir she's written. The editor wishes for her to show how she's overcome her experiences, transformed them, grown from them, and refuses to help her when all the author can say is, "I've survived." I think while both types want to find something meaningful in experience, a 4 is more interested in exposing the ugliness while a 7 will expose the ugliness, but then show what _they've done with it_. *There's a future-oriented approach.* A 4 navel-gazes, lingers, looks longingly at the past and what is missed/already gone, while a 7 is like "yes that happened to me, but I am a survivor and I have used my experiences for something." It's a more wide-sweeping viewpoint, less internal and constrictive than a 4 might employ.


I agree with this (excellent points all around), but I wouldn't necessarily draw a line that 7s are future oriented vs. 4s past orientation. I agree a 4 might be more inclined to *dwell *on the past (specifically, missed opportunities), but it can yearn for the future, too (if we are to believe the 4's desire for a "rescuer" is this not future oriented in general?). I suspect it isn't a case of future/past so much as not being present or being appreciative of what exists, hence frustration or ideal-seeking triad, which is perpetually dissatisfied with its present circumstance. Maybe this is more a semantics issue, but I would probably call 7 more of a _proactive _approach in terms of actualizing whatever it desires. Maybe this is common to id types who I see as more straightforward or _carpe diem_, in general.

Perhaps taking the glass half-empty analogy:

7: "My glass is only half full" (i.e. it's still not enough)
4: "My glass is still half-empty" (not enough!)

^ In both these statements, I'm attempting to illustrate that the 7, while more inclined to own its accomplishments, skills, talents, etc., it still wants more. Similarly, the 4 wants more, but it fixates on what is missing. Both types I consider "hungry" in that regard. For contrast:

9: "half full is good enough."


----------



## Doll

hal0hal0 said:


> I agree with this (excellent points all around), but I wouldn't necessarily draw a line that 7s are future oriented vs. 4s past orientation. I agree a 4 might be more inclined to *dwell *on the past (specifically, missed opportunities), but it can yearn for the future, too (if we are to believe the 4's desire for a "rescuer" is this not future oriented in general?).


I wouldn't draw a line. However, it can't be denied that 4s are inherently _more_ nostalgic, while 7s are more prone to think of future possibilities. That doesn't mean that a 7 can't yearn for the past or a 4 can't think of the future (otherwise I'd still be in the same job I was four years ago), but you do have to draw a distinction between the two types and that is an important distinction. (I also have to add that I do have personal troubles distinguishing the frustrations of these two types, as one is my fix, so your observations are interesting to me).



> I suspect it isn't a case of future/past so much as not being present or being appreciative of what exists, hence frustration or ideal-seeking triad, which is perpetually dissatisfied with its present circumstance.


I agree with this, most definitely.



> Maybe this is more a semantics issue, but I would probably call 7 more of a _proactive _approach in terms of actualizing whatever it desires. Maybe this is common to id types who I see as more straightforward or _carpe diem_, in general.


It also depends on health levels. I think 4s and 7s are both capable of being proactive. I think a type 7 is much more pro-active in an action-oriented sense - however, I think both types can have issues actually finalizing projects. Type 7 because their interests can be varied and often unfocused, and 4s because of self-doubt and sometimes even self-sabotage. I have trouble writing because I compare myself to classic writers, and this comparison discourages me and makes me not to want to write at all. My type 7 friend has a HUGE GARDEN PROJECT, then a HUGE BEDROOM PROJECT, then omg she wants to make a KOI FISH POND, so she has 9-10 projects sitting around in her house. She's enthusiastic and DOES a lot, but seeing it through is where she has difficulty. For me, it's the yearning to do something and then allowing my own frustrated self-doubt hinder me.

^ Personal observations: definitely don't assume I'm saying this is true of all 4s and 7s.



> Perhaps taking the glass half-empty analogy:
> 
> 7: "My glass is only half full" (i.e. it's still not enough)
> 4: "My glass is still half-empty" (not enough!)


This is interesting.



> ^ In both these statements, I'm attempting to illustrate that the 7, while more inclined to own its accomplishments, skills, talents, etc., it still wants more. Similarly, the 4 wants more, but it fixates on what is missing. Both types I consider "hungry" in that regard. For contrast:
> 
> 9: "half full is good enough."


I agree with this entirely.


----------



## Watercolourful

Doll said:


> Ohh I see.
> 
> I think when it comes to comparing type 7 and 4, 7s are extremely underrepresented because a lot of people see them as shallow and superficial. I know you're obviously not one of these people; I'm excited to actually have a decent 4 vs. 7 discussion openly on a forum. Especially where it concerns art. Where the two are concerned, I think a 7 would be more interested in MAKING SOMETHING from their pain, creating a manifestation DESPITE of it or BECAUSE of it. Showing that they've overcome. A 4 might be more inclined to be honest about their experience, even if it paints them as the victim (and might even enjoy being seen that way).


These discussions are interesting too because from what I know about 4s, 7s and 4s are similar in a lot of ways. There's a lot of ideas shared by both, but when you get down to the roots of those ideas that's where the differences are. Reading a lot of descriptions, though, you wouldn't really guess that similarities which can actually be really striking even exist between the two types. It's cool seeing a discussion on the differences because you kind of have to address the similarities.


----------



## Animal

Hmm. A philosophical/ theoretical question:

What is the difference between identity and being?

What is the difference between, for instance, "embodying a trait that you identify with" and claiming "I am X" ??


To use myself as example:
I could say.. "I am short" or "I am pale-skinned" - this is obvious. But then I could say "I am a piano player" - a bit less obvious. I've been playing piano since I was 4, but piano isn't my passion, it is just what I use to write songs. Singing is my passion, but I speak in a whisper. So I say, "I am a singer," even though it would be much more likely I'd get hired for a piano gig than singing. I don't _do_ piano without signing because it's not what I want. So if someone asks me, "Are you a piano player?" I usually say "I'm a singer and musician who just happens to play piano" or.. if I'm not in the mood, I'll just say "Yes."

So it's fair to say I identify as a singer, but factually, I am also a piano player, considering that I know how to play piano. And factually, I am more a piano player than a singer, because I technically have no voice, regardless of what I identify with. But I ignore the facts, and choose to identify with my passion.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'm just not sure what the difference is between claiming to be something, and having figured out, over many years that "this is what I stand for and who I am." I am pale-skinned (this is not an identity, it's a fact). I am a singer (is this an identity or a fact?)


___
This is a serious philosophical question.. I'm curious how people would answer this 
Feel free to use yourselves / me/ types as examples too.


----------



## Paradigm

Doll said:


> I think we can all form an argument on how we COULD be a certain type. The enneagram is so broad with adjectives that, if looked at with face value, you can find yourself somewhere in every single type.


I could be an 8 because...

Uh...

...I... like... autonomy. Or something.

This didn't work out so well


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> Hmm. A philosophical/ theoretical question:
> 
> What is the difference between identity and being?
> 
> What is the difference between, for instance, "embodying a trait that you identify with" and claiming "I am X" ??
> 
> 
> To use myself as example:
> I could say.. "I am short" or "I am pale-skinned" - this is obvious. But then I could say "I am a piano player" - a bit less obvious. I've been playing piano since I was 4, but piano isn't my passion, it is just what I use to write songs. Singing is my passion, but I speak in a whisper. So I say, "I am a singer," even though it would be much more likely I'd get hired for a piano gig than singing. I don't _do_ piano without signing because it's not what I want. So if someone asks me, "Are you a piano player?" I usually say "I'm a singer and musician who just happens to play piano" or.. if I'm not in the mood, I'll just say "Yes."
> 
> So it's fair to say I identify as a singer, but factually, I am also a piano player, considering that I know how to play piano. And factually, I am more a piano player than a singer, because I technically have no voice, regardless of what I identify with. But I ignore the facts, and choose to identify with my passion.
> 
> Do you see what I'm getting at?
> 
> I'm just not sure what the difference is between claiming to be something, and having figured out, over many years that "this is what I stand for and who I am." I am pale-skinned (this is not an identity, it's a fact). I am a singer (is this an identity or a fact?)
> 
> 
> ___
> This is a serious philosophical question.. I'm curious how people would answer this
> Feel free to use yourselves / me/ types as examples too.


I see what you're saying here. 

I think, for me personally, it's difficult for me to identify with traits. I usually identify with how I'm feeling at the time. Like um, let me see if I can put it in context... 

If someone asked me point blank, "are you a singer?"

I would say no. I sing, I sang professionally, but I have not sang in some time and the thought of singing brings me pain because of how out of practice I am, how I've let my voice go, how I haven't had the time/money to keep up with lessons, and a whole host of other things. I would say no, I am not a singer, because I would not feel as though I've earned the right to call myself one at this point in my life. 

When I talk about myself I do so in the way of my internal viewpoints, feelings, ect., and less so on labeling myself. Like on a dating profile, the whole, "describe yourself" box would be filled with how much I love new experiences, literature, what moves me, what inspires me, more focused on these outside influences and how they affect me and less, "I am a singer, I like the color blue, I do this and that." My about me is less about me and more about other things that influence me. I guess I'm more of a show rather than tell? Idk. Idk if this even means anything type wise or what I'm trying to say. 

...I don't know if any of that made sense.

As far as what I stand for and who I am, I don't look at the bigger picture in that way. I don't stand _for_ anything. WHO I am is something that is ever-shifting, so much so that I can't even try to pin it down anymore. It depends on when, how, and why you ask me - the answer always changes. If I'm sad, the world is bleak and everyone dies and omg who cares. If I'm happy, I'm hopeful and idealistic and life is golden and rich with possibility.


----------



## Doll

Paradigm said:


> I could be an 8 because...
> 
> Uh...
> 
> ...I... like... autonomy. Or something.
> 
> This didn't work out so well


I'm an 8 cause... uh... 

I uh.

Uh.

I experience lust.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

@Animal

You actually already know how I'd answer this, because I asked a very similar question earlier in the thread. :tongue: I will literally try to reshape my feelings to match the things I identify with--which, generally speaking, are my previous feelings.


----------



## Animal

Hmm, to elaborate further, and use a more extreme example.

Some would say I am an American - this is a "fact." I have lived in America all my life and have not been outside America for more than a month total in my whole life.

However, I don't identify as an American. I identify as an exile from my home planet (which has a name, but I won't write it here).

That is not something I was born knowing, it's something I figured out over many years. I figured it out by doing art and seeing the message that my subconscious kept giving me. I figured it out by observing things from my point of view. And observing my feelings, seeing them manifest, feeling out the patterns, expressing, etc.

So when asked where I'm from, I respond with: "My home planet" .. sometimes. That is, if I'm being honest. In other situations if I don't really care to communicate but just need to get through it (aka job interview) I would have to say I am from America, but I still don't think I'd call myself _an American_ because I don't relate to most of the customs. I don't even watch tv, lol. So that is not part of my identity, it just fits in with the whole "exile" thing. America is just another part of Dystopia and I was exiled from where I belong. I'll tell people that I live in America, but not that I _am an American_.. I would never ever say that, except maybe in a political debate to drive the point home that NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE FOOTBALL or something.

But it's not like I woke up knowing this. It was an abstract "sense of myself" or "feeling" that I couldn't express or understand in full (still seek to), and I put together lots of self-exploration and so forth to have the revelation that I've been from another planet all along.

Of course, I don't intend for anyone to take this literally, but I am talking about my sense of identity and how I communicate it.

So is being an alien identifying, or being? Is NOT calling myself an American (or mostly avoiding it) an identity thing?


----------



## Animal

Sorry I wrote my second post BEFORE I saw any of the responses (just saying) . So it wasn't a response to the responses. Just to be clear


----------



## Figure

Doll said:


> That's what I'm trying to get at. I made the specific point somewhere a page or so back asking Animal if she used these images and labels in place of an identity, or because she struggled with image, ect. If you're asking me if this is true, I have no idea - you would have to ask her.


Yeah, we don't have to center this around Animal. Your point just made me think, for the first time, that the shame of type 4 may or may not always look withdrawn from the outside, and that's not something I (and I KNOW others in the forum who think they understand the type) had not considered. When I read the Maitri quote that mentioned "optimistic 4's," I felt I was missing an understanding of something important about the type, as "optimism" isn't a word most people attribute to the type. 

Lately I've been really try not to compare people in typing, but when I notice differences (and like you I have noticed this one, with Animal as opposed to other type 4 ENFP), it's still interesting as to why there IS a difference, and/or IF there really is one. 

Can a 4 present shame shamelessly, or would it then not really be shame.


----------



## Flatlander

Animal said:


> Hmm. A philosophical/ theoretical question:
> 
> What is the difference between identity and being?
> 
> What is the difference between, for instance, "embodying a trait that you identify with" and claiming "I am X" ??


Being encompasses all aspects of what a person is, 'factual' or 'subjective'. A person is all the things they are, inside and out. Being is an undivided whole.

Identity is the subjective or subjectively prioritized portion of being. Identity is how or why humans split themselves from Being. Being can seem paradoxical with identity from within identity, but from an outside scope, being is contiguous with identity because identity is simply a different plane of being.


----------



## Doll

Animal said:


> Hmm, to elaborate further, and use a more extreme example.
> 
> Some would say I am an American - this is a "fact." I have lived in America all my life and have not been outside America for more than a month total in my whole life.
> 
> However, I don't identify as an American. I identify as an exile from my home planet (which has a name, but I won't write it here).
> 
> That is not something I was born knowing, it's something I figured out over many years. I figured it out by doing art and seeing the message that my subconscious kept giving me. I figured it out by observing things from my point of view. And observing my feelings, seeing them manifest, feeling out the patterns, expressing, etc.
> 
> So when asked where I'm from, I respond with: "My home planet" .. sometimes. That is, if I'm being honest. In other situations if I don't really care to communicate but just need to get through it (aka job interview) I would have to say I am from America, but I still don't think I'd call myself _an American_ because I don't relate to most of the customs. I don't even watch tv, lol. So that is not part of my identity, it just fits in with the whole "exile" thing. America is just another part of Dystopia and I was exiled from where I belong. I'll tell people that I live in America, but not that I _am an American_.. I would never ever say that, except maybe in a political debate to drive the point home that NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE FOOTBALL or something.
> 
> But it's not like I woke up knowing this. I put together lots of self-exploration and so forth to have the revelation that I've been from another planet all along.
> 
> Of course, I don't intend for anyone to take this literally, but I am talking about my sense of identity and how I communicate it.
> 
> So is being an alien identifying, or being? Is NOT calling myself an American (or mostly avoiding it) an identity thing?


Even if you WERE born here and identified as American, are you really American, or are the Native-Americans the real Americans? It's kind of a circular debate as far as nationality goes, even when introducing dystopian societies/worlds, because they're all labels that other people give them. How we look at them through our point of view is what matters. 

If someone asked me what my nationality was, I would say American, for realistic purposes (like you said, job interview, ect). If I really thought about where I was from and how I identify with my _origins_, it would be a much more personal and complicated answer.


----------



## Kisshoten

@_Animal_

I am not really sure everything is ever purely 'either-or' although it'd be a whole lot easier. 

I help people just because I think it's an easy thing for me to do. At the same time, I can be hurtful towards their feelings. 

So, am I an angel or a bitch? XD 

As for identity and being, I wonder - is it the same to "identify with" as it is to "identify as" ..? I ask because this is how I interpret things -

_To 'identify as' would represent the factual aspect of identity, while to 'identify with' would introduce perception of self. _

To compare the factual identity with the perception of identity seems to me like a comparison of apples and oranges because one can be debated and the other is a matter of convention. 

With respect to the perception of identity I have the following to say:

Let -
Identity = I
Being = B; I define being as the state of embodying qualities that a person perceives in themselves accurately
Distortion = D; prejudices about self, misconceptions, repression, etc.

Being = Identity - Distortion

EDIT: As the distortion reduces Identity tends towards Being.


----------



## drmiller100

earlier I believe it was Animal (please forgive me for errors) talked about looking at myself and others through the lens of enneagram. 

Am I what I think I am? Well, I certainly have learned lessons on kindness and patience by considering myself an 8, so benefit for me. 

It seems to me Animal spends a LOT of time and energy trying to figure out what Animal is. What is the type where the core drive is to find your self, your identity, your being?

(smiles)


----------



## Doll

Figure said:


> Yeah, we don't have to center this around Animal. Your point just made me think, for the first time, that the shame of type 4 may or may not always look withdrawn from the outside, and that's not something I (and I KNOW others in the forum who think they understand the type) had not considered. When I read the Maitri quote that mentioned "optimistic 4's," I felt I was missing an understanding of something important about the type, as "optimism" isn't a word most people attribute to the type.


Oh no, optimistic 4s definitely exist - they are perfectly capable of being optimistic. My two fixes are in the positive triad, so I'm not a down, depressed person at first glance. Probably not even at second or third. It isn't depression, withdrawn, ect., host of other traits that make up this type. It was the fixations and motivations I was trying to discern from her behavior, not the behavior itself.



> Lately I've been really try not to compare people in typing, but when I notice differences (and like you I have noticed this one, with Animal as opposed to other type 4 ENFP), it's still interesting as to why there IS a difference, and/or IF there really is one.


Difference between what and what? I'm not sure if I read this correctly. I'm actually leaning more toward INFP at this point, though. 



> Can a 4 present shame shamelessly, or would it then not really be shame.


There are plenty of arguments for countershame in 4s, which I'm sure can be present from time to time. I don't know... I don't see it as shameless so much as honest. I'm pretty open about my shame, because I know it's there and I'd rather explore the ugly parts of myself rather than cover them up.



Flatliner said:


> Being encompasses all aspects of what a person is, 'factual' or 'subjective'. A person is all the things they are, inside and out. Being is an undivided whole.
> 
> Identity is the subjective or subjectively prioritized portion of being. Identity is how or why humans split themselves from Being. Being can seem paradoxical with identity from within identity, but from an outside scope, being is contiguous with identity because identity is simply a different plane of being.


This thread just got realllllly theoretical.


----------



## Flatlander

Doll said:


> This thread just got realllllly theoretical.


That's what I do. I also like @_Vergil_'s solution to the problem as an alternate view to my own, it assigns Being a narrower but no less meaningful scope.


----------



## Bricolage

Doll said:


> This thread just got realllllly theoretical.


It's just a long way of saying ego and "being" are distinct.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Animal said:


> Hmm, to elaborate further, and use a more extreme example.
> 
> Some would say I am an American - this is a "fact." I have lived in America all my life and have not been outside America for more than a month total in my whole life.
> 
> However, I don't identify as an American. I identify as an exile from my home planet (which has a name, but I won't write it here).
> 
> That is not something I was born knowing, it's something I figured out over many years. I figured it out by doing art and seeing the message that my subconscious kept giving me. I figured it out by observing things from my point of view. And observing my feelings, seeing them manifest, feeling out the patterns, expressing, etc.
> 
> So when asked where I'm from, I respond with: "My home planet" .. sometimes. That is, if I'm being honest. In other situations if I don't really care to communicate but just need to get through it (aka job interview) I would have to say I am from America, but I still don't think I'd call myself _an American_ because I don't relate to most of the customs. I don't even watch tv, lol. So that is not part of my identity, it just fits in with the whole "exile" thing. America is just another part of Dystopia and I was exiled from where I belong. I'll tell people that I live in America, but not that I _am an American_.. I would never ever say that, except maybe in a political debate to drive the point home that NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE FOOTBALL or something.
> 
> But it's not like I woke up knowing this. I put together lots of self-exploration and so forth to have the revelation that I've been from another planet all along.
> 
> Of course, I don't intend for anyone to take this literally, but I am talking about my sense of identity and how I communicate it.
> 
> So is being an alien identifying, or being? Is NOT calling myself an American (or mostly avoiding it) an identity thing?


...interesting. I had a similar (but not the same) thing going on myself when I was younger, with regards to the race I identify with. I actually had, when I'd first thought about it, a negative reaction to the idea of being a race. I didn't even really want to be human, t'be honest. Humans seemed so...physical and boring and limited, and most of the races (except Native Americans. I actually alternated between this and wanting to be Native American most of the time. XD) seemed like they were just these cultures that were external t me, that were being imposed on me, not that I _was_. To make myself a little less human, a little more "feral", I actually managed (I think) to sharpen my teeth into points, even. XD I would often feel tempted to fill out "Native American/Other" on surveys, too, though I knew I wasn't _physically_ different from whites, so I'd often just fill White out. 

Since that point, I've grown more comfortable with having a body (which I viewed in a somewhat negative light when I was younger), when I began to realize that my mind wasn't as secure as I'd hoped and I began to realize I'm actually pretty damn attractive physically. But I still don't identify as a race. :tongue:


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> Even if you WERE born here and identified as American, are you really American, or are the Native-Americans the real Americans? It's kind of a circular debate as far as nationality goes, even when introducing dystopian societies/worlds, because they're all labels that other people give them. How we look at them through our point of view is what matters.
> 
> If someone asked me what my nationality was, I would say American, for realistic purposes (like you said, job interview, ect). If I really thought about where I was from and how I identify with my _origins_, it would be a much more personal and complicated answer.


I have diverse origins too but I don't "identify with" them. Yeah, in a concrete conversation it might come up that I'm from America, and what my origins are etc.. but I don't identify with anything unless it's of my own making and I really feel it is part of who I am. It takes a lot of inner work to sort this out, to weed out what is inherently _me_ vs. what is just fluff. Other people might readily accept that fluff as part of their identity, but for me, it might be a concrete fact, but that doesn't make it me. The only religion I practice is my own religion, though my heritage is Jewish Atheist. I actually have my own religion replete with symbols and practices which formed over time based on my own lifestyle, experiences, feelings, thoughts, and instincts. I don't follow _it_, it follows _me_. It then becomes more elaborate and diverges into sub-groups and interpretations in a fictional setting in my work. But it begins and ends with me figuring out who and what I actually am, and what makes me me.


I have talked about some of it on forum, with my animal/human/symbol analogies, but the majority of it is not something I share readily. Ideally it comes out in my expression and speaks for itself.


----------



## Kintsugi

The subject has officially gone over my head. Inferior-Ni is trembling in her boots.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Kintsugi said:


> The subject has officially gone over my head. Inferior-Ni is trembling in her boots.


It's going over my own head at this point, or at least my attention-span is slipping. :laughing:


----------



## Scelerat

Kintsugi said:


> The subject has officially gone over my head. Inferior-Ni is trembling in her boots.


It's not that complicated, she just says that she identifies with what she chooses to, not what the world tells her to. In embryo "I'd rather follow my own made up shit, than someone else's made up shit*"

*Note the word "shit" is used here as a synonym for "stuff" not "excrement".


----------



## kaleidoscope

justanotherperson said:


> Just wondering... and sorry if the grammar is gross but I'm just going to ramble as it comes to mind, but...
> I was always under the impression that 4s took a certain pride in their identities, I guess, just from things I read and extrapolating from conversations I've had. I guess I also assumed that there was a certain pride taken in the things associated with their identities. Not all aspects, though, but like... an inherent pride in their identity that doesn't equal confidence. Like... not necessarily confidence that others will accept their identity or that their identity is "right" or whatever but in the sense that they like... I don't know. Have a certain umm... like, they ascribe subjective value to it. Reading the thread though I'm starting to wonder if that impression was incorrect? Because like... for example, personally I would originally have thought that when @_Animal_ expresses herself through art that's evidence of pride in her identity but any dissatisfaction she has with that expression is where the envy plays a role. Like... the identity itself is whole and untarnished and that's why it's a source of pride but the expression of the identity is not untarnished, and the longing for it to match the true being is where the envy comes in.
> 
> I'm wondering now though if the inherent pride in the identity is actually what would make her un-4like? I don't know. I'm confused. Help?
> 
> Edit: I guess I always thought that 4 was envious of "being", because "identity" can't imitate it without distortion. (Not necessarily for all 4s but I thought this could be a form it would take.)


Hey, great post  I wanted to address the pride in identity part. For a 4, I'd say there is an oscillation between inferiority and superiority. I'll give you an example. Observing other people > Ugh, it all looks so effortless for them (socializing/being themselves..) Why can't I do that? > Longing/inferiority trigger > But they also don't feel the way I do. I bet they don't have the same self-awareness. I bet they just go on with their lives without ever having a deep thought > Superiority. 

It looks similar to pride but it's not quite the same. It's a coping mechanism, for one. It also doesn't last very long. It's kind of a way to console myself, and not a very good one because it further separates me from others. I'd say pride is a much more stable feeling, and it likely doesn't result from constant comparison with others.

Does that make sense?



> A 4 is envious that others don't seem to experience their own sense of deficiency. They see others as more attractive, successful, sexy, what have you, all depending on their personal fixations (and instinctual stacking affects this too - as SX-first, I'm sensitive when it comes to attractiveness and charisma). But it can be anything really: seeing a happy person and envying them, wishing someone will "rescue" them from their unhappiness, ect.


Yeah, I definitely relate to this so much. D:


----------



## mimesis

Kink said:


> My, aren't you imaginative.


Actually, that's where Pride sets in, come to think of it.


----------



## Watercolourful

kaleidoscope said:


> Hey, great post  I wanted to address the pride in identity part. For a 4, I'd say there is an oscillation between inferiority and superiority. I'll give you an example. Observing other people > Ugh, it all looks so effortless for them (socializing/being themselves..) Why can't I do that? > Longing/inferiority trigger > But they also don't feel the way I do. I bet they don't have the same self-awareness. I bet they just go on with their lives without ever having a deep thought > Superiority.
> 
> It looks similar to pride but it's not quite the same. It's a coping mechanism, for one. It also doesn't last very long. It's kind of a way to console myself, and not a very good one because it further separates me from others. I'd say pride is a much more stable feeling, and it likely doesn't result from constant comparison with others.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I definitely relate to this so much. D:


Yeah, I see what you mean. It makes sense. Hhm. 

Thank you!


----------



## Kintsugi

Deleted.


----------



## hal0hal0

Doll said:


> A 4 is envious that others don't seem to experience their own sense of deficiency. They see others as more attractive, successful, sexy, what have you, all depending on their personal fixations (and instinctual stacking affects this too - as SX-first, I'm sensitive when it comes to attractiveness and charisma). But it can be anything really: seeing a happy person and envying them, wishing someone will "rescue" them from their unhappiness, ect.


Just want to add that Envy need not be in relation to another person per se, but also the idealized fantasy within the 4's own head and the Could've beens that never transpired. Almost like a torch singer. I have often said that it is my own fantasies that I am most envious of, in part because they are so perfect, so pristine, and so utterly alluring in terms of the heights to which they aspire. The more I dream, the more perfect it becomes and thus, the more difficult to attain, like a balloon floating higher away from my grasp. I certainly have a perfectionist within me that demands and expects the best—not only as far as achieving the ideals I crave, but moreover, deserving them. 
@Cosmic Orgasm said in another thread that Sp 4 has a tendency to, uh, blow its dilemmas out of proportion, calling it their "own exaggerated creation" (HAHA) and I'd admit that can be true (although perhaps one person's delusion is another's overactive imagination? I think Einstein said that "imagination is more important than knowledge"). Perhaps I prefer the words embellishment or accentuation, LMAO (reframing, much? I'm just "turning shit to cream" as Naranjo put it so perhaps I am a 7???).

The reason I think 4 and 7 (and 1) can appear similar is through the fixation upon ideals. For the 7, it's more about living in that dream ideal of "everything's okay," that they can simply bulldoze through life and to a certain extent, they are living that dream. Most importantly, I think the 7 has convinced _themselves _inwardly that they are that dream. That is the nature of positive outlook is to turn away from inner deficiencies and adopt the attitude of "everything's okay" or "problem? There's no problem here. Everything's fine!" @Animal has said her 7 father has sort of a "narcissistic bubble" thing going on.

I get the impression (and don't quote me on this one!) that 7s tend to blur the line between reality and fantasy, in part because their narcissistic focus can obscure them to the harsh reality that, no, they are not always "the awesome shit." Whereas the 4 is more painfully aware of the split between what is real and what is ideal, in part because its focus on Envy is more relational—between what the 4 lacks vs. what it craves ("the haves" could be other people or the 4's own fantasies, I think).

In other words, I don't think 7s are _*conscious *_dreamers or as self-aware of their own idealistic tendencies so much as the 4.

~~~~~

So now I shall expound upon my typings for @Animal as either core 4 or core 1. 

I'll put my cards on the table and say that I have a habit of trusting, or at least giving extra weight to, the person's self-typing, in part because I believe the outer manifestations can vary drastically and belie the inner workings. Why? Because I cannot read minds, I do not know the other person's experience, and I am attempting to build a whole picture by gazing through a peephole. As Socrates said "I know that I do not know" and the one thing I'll never, ever see, is the internal processes that it took to get there for a particular individual. As Jean Renoir so famously put it:

"The awful thing about life is this: Everyone has their reasons."
*
Part 1: A case 4 type 4*

The reason I could buy a 4 typing from Animal has to do with what I've consistently seen in our private convos. Hm, I'm trying to word this to convey a point without divulging personal details, so apologies if this sounds vague.

If we are to buy the idea that 4s dwell upon the past and the Could've Been, then Animal most certainly fits the bill. When she really gets revved up into those story-telling modes, there is almost, how do I say? That torch singer quality to her that embellishes and romanticizes the past as a bittersweet fairy tale—one where the split of reality does not mesh with the ideal, so what does she do? She _*invests *_in that dream world. Heavily. I cannot relate to Animal in many ways, whether it's the braggadocio tendencies or the intrepid adventures that make me feel rather unremarkable by comparison. BUT, I can identify with the yearning and torch singer quality, the desire to melt yourself completely within a fantasy world while recognizing there is ultimately a barrier between one's fantasy and one's reality, and the pining for a past that never transpired quite so perfectly as we had hoped. The heart wants what it wants, but reality is a cruel mistress (i.e., "tough shit, bitch").

She has difficulty letting go of these dreams (not that she "should"; they are very much a part of who she is) and dwells upon them repeatedly in a way that I have difficulty pinning down as "7" because I get the impression a 7 is more likely to move along to the next thing without getting hung up or dwelling. I think a 1 typing is even more likely than 7 because of this.

The reason enneagram fixations are called "fixations" is because they exist as a fulcrum or balanced upon a razor's edge, I think. Our thoughts oscillate _*about *_that fixation, but I believe the end result can look quite different. Sort of like how trees may come from the same-looking seed, but result in drastically different looking trees, as the branches adapt and wind about to adapt to their *environment*. And that is really my point of this, is that I think Animal's life circumstances are wholly unique, by most people's standards, which uh, can make it difficult to see the forest for the trees when we ascribe our own standards to hers.










Whether or not we choose to take the high road, the low road, the short path, or the long, difficult one, is precisely that—our choice, because the biggest barrier is within one's mind. If enneagram were a fatalistic theory indicating a single, solitary path that we are forced to take (i.e., self-defeat), then it would not be something I'd be interested in, because I'd rather like to believe in free will, even if I am wrong. The defeatist mentality annoys me, in part because it is my own projection and self-disgust with those own fears within myself. 

It's a point of oscillation and there is a road diverging into multiple paths.










Moreover, Animal has hardly been surrounded by your typical stock of people. Forgive my unabashed flattery here, but extraordinary circumstances tend to develop extraordinary people (i.e, necessity is the mother of all invention). It's all relative. I have actually seen a pretty strong envious side to Animal in private conversation, but she hardly envies just anyone. I have consistently seen her talk about the few she *does* idolize and... there is, shockingly, a sense of inferiority, of all things. I get the impression that PerC is simply a small pond to her, insofar as she is a fish that has been raised and battled in an ocean of denizens by comparison. So again, her "bragging" may, from her perspective, not feel that way _*relative *_to what she's accustomed to IRL.










While I believe all types introject to a certain extent, I believe the image types in particular are prone to introjection, in part because: what better way of ensuring your value than to remold your consciousness in the eyes of others? To cherrypick traits, behaviors and attitudes from those you admire as a way of forging your own identity. Thus, if a 4 is surrounded by confident, powerful people, perhaps that individual adopts those characteristics themselves, resulting in the semblance of confidence. In this regard, the image type must be considered within the _*context and milieu*_ from which it came, because of that "chameleon" aspect.

For instance, I am posting more on the enneagram forum and a bit less hesitant to do so, because I have taken inspiration from those around me and encouraged by the forthcoming spirit of others. Jean Cocteau's 1943 picture Beauty and the Beast opens with the following:



> Opening Title: Children believe what we tell them. They have complete faith in us. They believe that a rose plucked from a garden can plunge a family into conflict. They believe that the hands of a human beast will smoke when he slays a victim, and that this will cause the beast shame when a young maiden takes up residence in his home. They believe a thousand other simple things. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and, to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words, childhood's open sesame: "Once upon a time..."


And I believed in that rose—one spun out of glass that would break with the slightest of breezes. I believed that the slightest bit of animosity would shatter a friendship, for instance, so I withheld myself from the world. It is thanks, in part, to many people on this forum including one or two very, very close friendships (you know who you are biatch although i doubt you're reading this lol), that I have learned that people are not quite so fragile as that.

Sidenote: Isn't it funny how the word "forge" has a sorta ironic meaning? In one sense, it is "to build" like you are a blacksmith hammering out the pieces of your identity upon the anvil of your consciousness. In another sense, it means "to copy" or to fake the signature, for instance... the signature so often used as "proof" of our ID.

~~~~~

Alright, I will pick this up later and expand upon why I think core 1 is a possibility and why I don't see core 7. Hope that made [some] sense.


----------



## Doll

hal0hal0 said:


> Just want to add that Envy need not be in relation to another person per se, but also the idealized fantasy within the 4's own head and the Could've beens that never transpired. Almost like a torch singer. I have often said that it is my own fantasies that I am most envious of, in part because they are so perfect, so pristine, and so utterly alluring in terms of the heights to which they aspire. The more I dream, the more perfect it becomes and thus, the more difficult to attain, like a balloon floating higher away from my grasp. I certainly have a perfectionist within me that demands and expects the best—not only as far as achieving the ideals I crave, but moreover, deserving them.


I think our differences here could be wing-related. An envious 4w3 - look at those other people, look what they have that I don't, superiority verses inferiority, and a 4w5 - more inward-seeking idealization, more internal, more withdrawn. I'm using basic adjectives here, but I'm sure you understand what I mean. I'm also a perfectionist, but since both my types are image-types, it's also geared toward how others see me. It's still secondary to being authentic, but it's a concern that often derails what I think about image, sincerity, and the ways in which I express myself. I'll do something impulsively and then later berate myself for going against what I truly believe in/giving a bad impression/ect. I can't control my emotions or how I feel in the moment; hindsight is always 20/20. Being on a forum like this gives people the chance to step back, edit, delete posts, and calmly explain their side of things in ways we wouldn't see IRL. 

It makes me wonder what would happen if you threw all of us in a room omg. I would be sitting on the couch looking at everyone like . 



> The reason I think 4 and 7 (and 1) can appear similar is through the fixation upon ideals. For the 7, it's more about living in that dream ideal of "everything's okay," that they can simply bulldoze through life and to a certain extent, they are living that dream. Most importantly, I think the 7 has convinced _themselves _inwardly that they are that dream. That is the nature of positive outlook is to turn away from inner deficiencies and adopt the attitude of "everything's okay" or "problem? There's no problem here. Everything's fine!"


This actually reminds me of more of a 9's mindset. "What problem?" 

But I think a 7's positive outlook manifests differently. It's not _avoidance_, but distraction - throwing themselves into something else. Not necessarily DENYING the problem, but addressing it flippantly and then moving forward. They aren't dwellers and wouldn't spend a lot of time on the negative, because it makes them uncomfortable. Their main differences lie in what they seek out - 9s seeking comfort, 7s excitement. Stimulation verses non-stimulation. 

But you are right that they are more likely to LIVE their dream rather than simply dream.



> In other words, I don't think 7s are _*conscious *_dreamers or as self-aware of their own idealistic tendencies so much as the 4.


I think 7s can be quite idealistic, but the biggest difference in this is that they generally see their ideals as attainable and they consciously go after them, without the hesitation or self-doubt, and they avoid any feelings that could impede them. Both types are extremely sensual and indulgent, but a 4 over-indulges in their emotions to avoid the external world, where they feel deficient, whereas a 7 over-indulges in external stimulation to avoid their internal world, which can be too overwhelming.


----------



## Animal

@_hal0hal0_
that post made me cry :,)

i am sitting outside in a beautiful setting by a lake in the sunlight lkke.. Crying haha.
thats a good thing. It was beautiful. *hug*

again its not about the number but how deeply you saw something very real and pervasive in me.
cant wait for the other cases  
thank you for seeing me 

i have had some very in depth thoughts about how to express my experience with sense of identity in words , thanks to many of the amazing posts here by @_Doll_ @_hal0hal0_ @_justanotherperson_ @_kaleidoscope_ @mimesis and many others, about your own experiences and theoretical ideas. I am doing my best to divorce from all notions of type even mentally to express this as plainly as i can but the discussion here has really helpe so much in finding the words re: identity search. Carry on tho please.. These posts and cases are amazing truly. Hal0 thank you for that, i am touched  and feel a little naked but in that "omg he saw it" way


----------



## hal0hal0

Doll said:


> It makes me wonder what would happen if you threw all of us in a room omg. I would be sitting on the couch looking at everyone like .


:laughing:I think I remember saying somewhere that a 4 party would consist of a bunch of people with their headphones on not talking to each other.



Doll said:


> I think our differences here could be wing-related. An envious 4w3 - look at those other people, look what they have that I don't, superiority verses inferiority, and a 4w5 - more inward-seeking idealization, more internal, more withdrawn. I'm using basic adjectives here, but I'm sure you understand what I mean. I'm also a perfectionist, but since both my types are image-types, it's also geared toward how others see me. It's still secondary to being authentic, but it's a concern that often derails what I think about image, sincerity, and the ways in which I express myself. I'll do something impulsively and then later berate myself for going against what I truly believe in/giving a bad impression/ect. I can't control my emotions or how I feel in the moment; hindsight is always 20/20. Being on a forum like this gives people the chance to step back, edit, delete posts, and calmly explain their side of things in ways we wouldn't see IRL.


Good point.

I wonder if life experience shapes the wing (and fixation in general; thinking back to RH's "lost childhood messages"). For instance, by all rights, I am a loser by society's standards—not only in my mind, but actually so, I think. I am a social recluse, a hermit and I mostly keep to myself. I harbor old wounds and demons that I am still too proud to open up about (this is where I think the 4 is sort of a "closet pride". I am a loner in a classical sense, to the point that having friends is still a new idea to me. I actually have trouble relating to 4s in that sense, because I am, all in all, quite unremarkable.

So what do I do? I hide behind intelligentsia and theory even though I never feel I know enough. Like catching water with a sieve. The more I read, the less I know. If I'm being honest, I have a pretty extensive knowledge of film and film history (I basically devoted my whole college years to nothing but drowning in solitude amidst the cinema), but it's always inadequate. There's always more and more I could have. Czech New Wave, poetic realism, silent era expressionism, etc. etc., it can be discouraging to think that there is so much I do not yet know or have collected into my experience, but at the same time (reframing it as something better):

Is that not sort of a good thing? I wouldn't want to live in a world without that potential for improvement and growth (and moreover, actually working up the strength to take it... spitting in the face of doubt and insecurity). 

I lot of my attitude in general is shaped and inspired by the film critic Pauline Kael. She was a tough old bird and an insanely talented writer. I didn't always agree with her, but I loved the confidence with which she asserted her opinions. Her editor once got in a hissy fit because she didn't like The Sound of Music (calling it "The Sound of Money"), to which she responded: "Tough Shit, Bill."



Doll said:


> This actually reminds me of more of a 9's mindset. "What problem?"
> 
> But I think a 7's positive outlook manifests differently. It's not _avoidance_, but distraction - throwing themselves into something else. Not necessarily DENYING the problem, but addressing it flippantly and then moving forward. They aren't dwellers and wouldn't spend a lot of time on the negative, because it makes them uncomfortable. Their main differences lie in what they seek out - 9s seeking comfort, 7s excitement. Stimulation verses non-stimulation.


Yes! you worded that better than I did: it's about reframing. In this regard, a 7 thinks "there's no problem" because there is a "whatever, moving right along" attitude that, to my mind, doesn't get hung up on nagging little imperfections. It's like a mental ninja or the The Flash as it bounces through the tripwires without setting off a single one. The 7 tendency is to deny imperfection within itself, because it already thinks it's pretty awesome.

Similarly, a 2 denies the problem of their own needs or at least gives that impression. My grandmother is a classic case of this. She worries so extensively about others to the point that asking her to focus on her own needs is something she is incapable of doing. This is partly because she has grown accustomed to that lifestyle for 50+ years of being a provider, working in the background and exerting her influence _*through *_other people, that thinking in terms independence and individuality are difficult to adopt for her.

I think the 9's "there's no problem" is more global and all encompassing in nature. A general sense of indolence and indifference.


----------



## Doll

hal0hal0 said:


> :laughing:I think I remember saying somewhere that a 4 party would consist of a bunch of people with their headphones on not talking to each other.


HAHA. That's how I am at work, but mainly because I don't want to engage with certain co-workers and it's a passive-aggressive way of telling them to leave me alone. 



> I wonder if life experience shapes the wing (and fixation in general; thinking back to RH's "lost childhood messages"). For instance, by all rights, I am a loser by society's standards—not only in my mind, but actually so, I think. I am a social recluse, a hermit and I mostly keep to myself. I harbor old wounds and demons that I am still too proud to open up about (this is where I think the 4 is sort of a "closet pride". I am a loner in a classical sense, to the point that having friends is still a new idea to me. I actually have trouble relating to 4s in that sense, because I am, all in all, quite unremarkable.


I think so. My parents are both withdrawn types and generally saw any display of emotion as over-dramatic and unnecessary (my dad is a 5 and my mom is a 9). Consequently, I NEVER felt as though my needs were met unless I gave a thoroughly engaging performance and greatly exaggerated what I wanted. I think this gave me a more outward quality; wanting to engage others, receive a reaction, attention, validation, ect., because I grew up without that.

Definitely I relate to your definition of "closet pride." There are SO many belief systems I have that I'm too proud to reveal, although I would just as soon call it shame. Shame and pride can blur so easily, especially when it comes to type 4 and their fixations. I think that's why all of us keep circling around both these topics, touching on them and how we view them in others, but still not truly understanding the motivations behind what we're perceiving. How can we? We only see inside our own heads.



> So what do I do? I hide behind intelligentsia and theory even though I never feel I know enough.


^ Yes. I overcompensate by elevation in social status, feeling "elite" and exalted, being looked up to, seen as important/entitled/beautiful/charismatic/sexy/ect., and base my identity around how SPESHUL I am. Such a special snowflake. Inside I don't feel it, but a small part of me gains satisfaction and validation when my true feelings are recognized by someone else. "You're so pretty!" fights off my insecurity temporarily, but it's not something I really think about myself and it's not what I REALLY find to be important. "That was so interesting, I've never heard that before, that's such a different point of view!" would mean so much to me that I would soak in the compliment for the rest of the day. 

I hate to use the word superficial here, but I think the biggest issue a 4w3 has is that they CAN be superficial and they recognize this tendency in themselves, so it leads to more volatility and self-hatred for their own contradictions in what they believe in/actually do.



> Like catching water with a sieve. The more I read, the less I know. If I'm being honest, I have a pretty extensive knowledge of film and film history (I basically devoted my whole college years to nothing but drowning in solitude amidst the cinema), but it's always inadequate. There's always more and more I could have. Czech New Wave, poetic realism, silent era expressionism, etc. etc., it can be discouraging to think that there is so much I do not yet know or have collected into my experience, but at the same time (reframing it as something better):
> 
> Is that not sort of a good thing? I wouldn't want to live in a world without that potential for improvement and growth (and moreover, actually working up the strength to take it... spitting in the face of doubt and insecurity).


Oh wow, you're making me feel so uneducated over here. My focuses are limited, less "soaking up" knowledge the way you're describing and more centered on specific topics/interests I have. Literature is my true love. But yes, I think it's a good thing. I think for a 4w5, more knowledge makes them more secure in themselves, whereas for me, more prestige and recognition makes me feel good about myself. ...But I see your typing as more enviable, because to me, knowledge and intelligence makes someone MUCH more deep and interesting than someone like myself, who strives for external validation and speshulness. 



> I lot of my attitude in general is shaped and inspired by the film critic Pauline Kael. She was a tough old bird and an insanely talented writer. I didn't always agree with her, but I loved the confidence with which she asserted her opinions. Her editor once got in a hissy fit because she didn't like The Sound of Music (calling it "The Sound of Money"), to which she responded: "Tough Shit, Bill."


Haha! I also admire confidence like that. It's sexy.



> Yes! you worded that better than I did: it's about reframing. In this regard, a 7 thinks "there's no problem" because there is a "whatever, moving right along" attitude that, to my mind, doesn't get hung up on nagging little imperfections. It's like a mental ninja or the The Flash as it bounces through the tripwires without setting off a single one. The 7 tendency is to deny imperfection within itself, because it already thinks it's pretty awesome.


Yes, 7s definitely carry an aura of self-assuredness that I can only mimic. I do wonder how far they can truly carry it, though - if they are unable to break the surface level of their emotions, or do this minimally, how genuine can their self-esteem really be? Since I have a 7-fix, I think I can see the backlash and the insecurities this type can face more easily, I don't idealize it as much as I idealize other types who seem to have it better.

...But I still wish I were more like a 7.



> Similarly, a 2 denies the problem of their own needs or at least gives that impression. My grandmother is a classic case of this. She worries so extensively about others to the point that asking her to focus on her own needs is something she is incapable of doing. This is partly because she has grown accustomed to that lifestyle for 50+ years of being a provider, working in the background and exerting her influence _*through *_other people, that thinking in terms independence and individuality are difficult to adopt for her.


I used to think my grandmother was a 2 because she was SO GOOD at inciting the responses she wanted, but she was always so focused on her own emotions and stuck in the past. She had all of these pictures of herself tacked all over the room, when she won Miss Bakery of 1955 (it was a big deal back then and more like a modeling contest because she could not cook AT ALL, but she got to like meet the president) and wallowed in the past. She hated looking in mirrors and resented me because we looked a lot alike, and I reminded her of what was but was now lost to her.

Your grandmother definitely sounds like a 2. I think mine was actually the same type I am, which is unfortunate. I still hate it when my parents compare me to her.



> I think the 9's "there's no problem" is more global and all encompassing in nature. A general sense of indolence and indifference.


Yes oh god. Me and my family:

Me: I failed a test.
Mom: No you didn't.
Dad: ...
Me: No, look, it says F.
Mom: You need to drink more water.
Dad: ...
Me: I FAILED THE TEST I AM GOING TO FAIL THIS CLASS OMG.
Mom: You're really going to become anemic. Rub this penny on your skin.
Dad: ...
Me: I'm putting this test on the refrigerator.
Dad: What test?


----------



## kaleidoscope

Doll said:


> Yes oh god. Me and my family:
> 
> Me: I failed a test.
> Mom: No you didn't.
> Dad: ...
> Me: No, look, it says F.
> Mom: You need to drink more water.
> Dad: ...
> Me: I FAILED THE TEST I AM GOING TO FAIL THIS CLASS OMG.
> Mom: You're really going to become anemic. Rub this penny on your skin.
> Dad: ...
> Me: I'm putting this test on the refrigerator.
> Dad: What test?


HAHAHA. My parents are the exact opposite of that. First, it's always always because I didn't do enough, and then, they go into freak out mode. 

Me: Dad.. I failed the test. :\

Dad: [silence] Did you study enough?

Me: Er.. sort of-

Dad: No you didn't. If you did, you wouldn't have failed. 

Me: But everyone else-

Dad: I don't care about everyone else. You failed a test. Is there a make up? Will this affect your final grade? You should email your teacher right now. Do it. Ask her if you can make up for it. Do you have her email address? Ask your friends for her email address.

Me: I'm not gonna email her! It's just a test!!










(Then he launches himself into a long discussion about the importance of effort, and how life is a constant climb, and how you have to distinguish yourself and ALWAYS WORK FOREVER ALL WORK NO PLAY or else you'll fail and wind up on the street.)


----------



## Doll

kaleidoscope said:


> HAHAHA. My parents are the exact opposite of that. First, it's always always because I didn't do enough, and then, they go into freak out mode.
> 
> Me: Dad.. I failed the test. :\
> 
> Dad: [silence] Did you study enough?
> 
> Me: Er.. sort of-
> 
> Dad: No you didn't. If you did, you wouldn't have failed.
> 
> Me: But everyone else-
> 
> Dad: I don't care about everyone else. You failed a test. Is there a make up? Will this affect your final grade? You should email your teacher right now. Do it. Ask her if you can make up for it. Do you have her email address? Ask your friends for her email address.
> 
> Me: I'm not gonna email her! It's just a test!!
> 
> (Then he launches himself into a long discussion about the importance of effort, and how life is a constant climb, and how you have to distinguish yourself and ALWAYS WORK FOREVER ALL WORK NO PLAY or else you'll fail and wind up on the street.)


LOL!!! Omg. That's really awesome though. I mean it isn't, but you know, grass is always greener. My parents won't freak out over ANYTHING... except little things. It's like my mom lets it all build up and then it EXPLODES. Like I could tell her the world is ending and oh lalalala everything is fine... then I spill a drink and OMG LIFE IS OVER. She's a 9w8, so I think her anger is very repressed and then when it comes out it's like...

:shocked:

But my dad is so calm it's eerie. It's also irritating, because I'll be having this intense conversation with him and he won't seem to be paying attention, then three hours later he'll make a comment about it. No one will know what the fuck he's talking about because it's like five conversations later. 

...But he's just like, "I was thinking really heavily about what you said this whole time." So it's like... if you say something, you might get his opinion two or three hours later. But it'll be a REALLY WELL THOUGHT OUT OPINION.


----------



## kaleidoscope

@_hal0hal0_



> While I believe all types introject to a certain extent, I believe the image types in particular are prone to introjection, in part because: what better way of ensuring your value than to remold your consciousness in the eyes of others? To cherrypick traits, behaviors and attitudes from those you admire as a way of forging your own identity. Thus, if a 4 is surrounded by confident, powerful people, perhaps that individual adopts those characteristics themselves, resulting in the semblance of confidence. In this regard, the image type must be considered within the _*context and milieu from which it came, because of that "chameleon" aspect.*_


Wouldn't that cause SOME kind of dilemma within the 4? Adopting other people's characteristics I can understand, I do that as well, but wouldn't it ever be followed by feelings of fake-ness? A realization of.. that's not me, I don't feel this way on the inside, etc. I can feel.. almost like a fraud for doing this sort of thing, lol. It's also usually followed by self-disgust because I despise myself for feeling the need to adopt characteristics of other people. 

If I'm understanding you well, you're saying that being around confident/powerful people can make you confident, but if someone is predisposed to feeling envy and shame, in noticing the things they lack, wouldn't that sort of environment exacerbate that?


----------



## Figure

kaleidoscope said:


> Out of curiosity, what are traits & patterns of type 7?


Is there somewhere specific you'd like to begin?


http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...-types-more-descriptions-specifically-7s.html

http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-forum-enthusiast/8709-overview-seven-its-wings.html

http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-forum-enthusiast/151488-type-7-excerpts-maitri.html

EnneagramWork - Enneagram Type 7 – The Epicure

EnneagramWork - Defense Systems

The Epicure Personality Type â€¢ Enneagram Studies in the Narrative Tradition

http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-forum-enthusiast/196346-ichazo-type-7-a.html

http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...ony-fraudulence-narcissistic-personality.html


----------



## Animal

Me: I got a 98 on the test!
Dad (7w8 ENTP): What happened to the other two points?
Me: .....
Dad: What did Lauren get?
Me: 102.
Dad: When Lauren was here yesterday, you did your homework much faster than she did. How come she got a higher grade?
Me: Because she studied.
Dad: 
Me: I was writing a song. 
Dad: Well, it's your choice what you want to do with your life. I won't stop you but I won't save you either. *picks up guitar, rocks some hot riffs, and shoots me a flippant, proud glance, laden with subtext: "I was a famous rockstar once myself and I am AMAZING at music but now I'm a medical professional" 
Me: >=/


----------



## Watercolourful

Me: ...I failed the test.
Dad (ENTJ): [silence] ...really? ..what do you mean, you failed?
Me: I... the math test, I um... I'm so sorry, I really did study but I guess I didn't study hard enough and, and, and...
Dad: [silence]
Me: I promise I'll do better on the next one...
Dad: Why did you fail, though? Was it difficult? Did you do all your homework? Ask your teacher questions?
Me: It seemed easy at the time...
Dad: ...okay. Listen, it's okay. You just need to put in extra work. When you get the test back, go over your mistakes and correct them. Make sure you study hard for the next test, and review this unit so you can do better on the exam. 
Me: -tears- thank you. I love you.
Dad: I love you too. Go do your homework.

...


----------



## kaleidoscope

Figure said:


> Is there somewhere specific you'd like to begin?


Tsk tsk, I'm disappointed. I was actually hoping for some sort of compare and contrast; not a couple of links. What I meant was, what traits & patterns of 7 don't match what you know of Animal? That was just super vague, and I'm a curious cat.










I'm also classy as shit for a cat.


----------



## Flatlander

Doll said:


> Me: I failed a test.
> Mom: No you didn't.
> Dad: ...
> Me: No, look, it says F.
> Mom: You need to drink more water.
> Dad: ...
> Me: I FAILED THE TEST I AM GOING TO FAIL THIS CLASS OMG.
> Mom: You're really going to become anemic. Rub this penny on your skin.
> Dad: ...
> Me: I'm putting this test on the refrigerator.
> Dad: What test?


*SNORT*

Your dad's response just takes the cake.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Animal said:


> Me: I got a 98 on the test!
> Dad (7w8 ENTP): What happened to the other two points?
> Me: .....
> Dad: What did Lauren get?
> Me: 102.
> Dad: When Lauren was here yesterday, you did your homework much faster than she did. How come she got a higher grade?
> Me: Because she studied.
> Dad:
> Me: I was writing a song.
> Dad: *Well, it's your choice what you want to do with your life. I won't stop you but I won't save you either*. *picks up guitar, rocks some hot riffs, and shoots me a flippant, proud glance, laden with subtext: "I was a famous rockstar once myself and I am AMAZING at music but now I'm a medical professional"
> Me: >=/


OMG, the bolded is an amazing attitude. I mean sure, I don't want my kids to fail, but after a certain point, it's time to step back and let them do their thing. Let them make their mistakes, dammit. I'll challenge them & encourage them, but I won't hold their hand either. It's their life, not mine.


----------



## Animal

kaleidoscope said:


> OMG, the bolded is an amazing attitude. I mean sure, I don't want my kids to fail, but after a certain point, it's time to step back and let them do their thing. Let them make their mistakes, dammit. I'll challenge them & encourage them, but I won't hold their hand either. It's their life, not mine.


I agree.  I love that aspect of his attitude and would definitely try to mirror it if I had kids. (Which I don't want to)
The best part is, he would say that to encourage me to take responsibility for myself. The "I won't save you either" isn't completely true. It's true to a degree, that he would rather watch me clean up my own mess so I would learn from it - but when I went WAY too far and fucked up really badly.. my parents did take me back in, but I had to "make up for it" basically. They would never "abandon" me because I made a mistake, no matter how grave. So it's important to have that clause in there.  But to a large degree I was given a lot of independence. I was expected to get good grades to earn the right to have friends over or have music lessons, but in my free time I could pursue whatever calling I chose.


My mother tended to be more on the nurturing side when it came to helping me pick up pieces, and this is something they would argue about.


----------



## Animal

Doll said:


> Me: I failed a test.
> Mom: No you didn't.
> Dad: ...
> Me: No, look, it says F.
> Mom: You need to drink more water.
> Dad: ...
> Me: I FAILED THE TEST I AM GOING TO FAIL THIS CLASS OMG.
> Mom: You're really going to become anemic. Rub this penny on your skin.
> Dad: ...
> Me: I'm putting this test on the refrigerator.
> Dad: What test?


Did you go to great lengths to get reactions? 


I dated a 9w8 for two years so I know exactly what this was like. I used to fight AT him. While I was fighting he was looking right through me, lost somewhere on 9-cloud. I had to learn to approach him more calmly so he wouldn't float away xD


----------



## hal0hal0

Kink said:


> To be honest, though, I actually look like my avatar. That's why I usually stick to short posts. It's kind of awkward to write a lot of words without any hands.


I knew there was something off about you.

On a related note, wtf is going on in this thread?


----------



## -Alpha-

hal0hal0 said:


> I knew there was something off about you.
> 
> On a related note, wtf is going on in this thread?


History.


----------



## hal0hal0

Trying to pick up loose pieces that I've dropped along the way. If I said I'll get back to you, I most likely will otherwise please remind me. I keep distracting myself (it's my own damn fault, sorry!) and getting distracted by my distractions, so yeah.
@_Doll_ regarding the distinction you were making about 4w3 vs. 4w5, I've been meaning to bring up this great post by Scruffy regarding type 3, because I feel it's relevant to what you were talking about in terms of identity crisis (source: http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/161092-4w3s-4w5s-thoughts-3s-5s-2.html ):

* *







> It's not about competition, it is not about success. It irritates me to see the internet writing off 3's as some sort of attention-seeking-superficial-whore. I understand where these ideas come from (other people observing 3's), but jesus christ, you make the type seem so petty. Nobody attempts to look deeper into the type, it's another reason why people are afraid of typing themselves as a 3.
> 
> I'm not particularly competitive. I've been called competitive because I'm damn good at what I do and often excel above my peers.
> 
> I don't care about money or success, neither of them will ever make me happy. I'm successful because I work my ass off, and I'm not afraid to lose a little bit of myself in the process. Losing your sense of self and identity will aid in "objective" success, I would assume that 4's are not readily willing to give away parts of themselves for a pay raise, or a promotion.
> 
> I never mean to brag, and I'll tell you why you think I'm bragging in a moment.
> 
> Objects are meaningless to me.
> 
> I'm a 3. I was born without an innate sense of self, I see nothing but emptiness when I decide that I want to introspect. I have no passion, I quite literally cannot put myself behind a single thing that I do. I "brag" in the sense that I tell you the things that I have done, and are good at because I cannot tell you who I am. All I simply want is recognition, I look outwards towards society to give my empty life value. I'm "fixated" on money, success, and power, because society will think I'm worth something (society at least acknowledges these things as important). If society thinks I'm worth something, I feel slightly better about myself, because someone cares. I buy expensive things, I wear expensive things, and I try to look attractive at all times because I want to mean something to someone.
> 
> I'm extremely aware of people's opinions of me, because it's how I define myself. I define myself based on other people's opinions on the things that I do, the things that I say, and how I look. These things are important to me, because they are all that I have.
> 
> But, you know what? It never helps. I'm never satisfied, I'm never whole. I work myself to death because if I stop climbing, I cease to exist. If I'm not constantly moving up, I'll stay the same. If I stay the same, I must rely on myself to keep myself feeling worthy. I cannot rely on myself to make myself feel of value because I don't have a self. I don't care about anything, but _you_ do. Therefore, I do.
> 
> What's it like being a 3? It's a lonely, empty, and passionless place.
> 
> The Enneagram was never a theory based on happiness, it is a theory based on deficit. Each type has an inherent lack (a fixation) that they spend their entire life working to fill. You are your type because there's something inherently wrong with you.
> 
> There's nothing pretty about this personality theory, but at least give 3's some fucking depth.







I think all image types are suffering from a sort of crisis of identity, and a questioning of who they are as it relates to what is authentic, real vs. what is fake and forced compulsion. A 2's pride can create a mental roadblock that tells them not to consider themselves or their needs, so they resort to subversion, helping, seduction, manipulation, networking, etc., as a means of subtly attaining those needs while not infringing upon their Pride.

I think 3 represents the most pronounced form of the identity crisis, in part because the 3 is so utterly fixated upon the persona or the description or surface characteristics of self, that the actual self gets lost in the shuffle. The 3 is so adept at playing the game, perhaps climbing the corporate ladder (YES, I'm sorta injecting a strong Soc instinct here, I know), etc. that its actual feelings (in terms of personal ethos) may get left by the wayside. It's that whole "fake it to make it" thing. And @_Animal_ this gets at your post too regarding identity vs. self which I shall address here and below.

For me, I don't really get hangups about "was that the true me or not" (a little, yes, of course, who doesn't?). Nevertheless, I find myself more concerned with whether I know enough or am prepared enough to actually "get on stage" in the first place. I never feel ready. I am all rehearsal and no performance, studying, brooding, withholding, and hoarding information, knowledge, ideas, etc. because I do not believe they are good enough to unleash upon the world yet.

I am a slow, slow cook in this regard and I suppose that's more 5-wing.



Animal said:


> What is the difference between identity and being?
> 
> What is the difference between, for instance, "embodying a trait that you identify with" and claiming "I am X" ??


Ok, I'll preface this by saying that much of my thinking is going to involve my amateur understanding of media theory, which frankly, I've found just as insightful as Jung or enneagram in terms of analyzing one's consciousness. I love my pet theories :3.

I think identity is like technology as Marshall McLuhan described it. In other words, identity forms the extension of ourselves, just as our arms are extensions of our bodies... just as our hands can transmute those inner thoughts into scribbles and lines of thought on a page. These pieces of our identities, whether they be hobbies, vocations, actions, behaviors, enneagram, JCF, etc. are like peripherals on a computer... perhaps my arms are the keyboard. The screen is my eyes. The speakers extend my ears, for instance. McLuhan described the electronic technology (TV at his time, but the internet now) as the extension of our central nervous system.

In other words, the internet and electricity has reached farther into our consciousness than, say, the wheel, which simply extends the faculty of the feet and legs.

In my mind, the internet acts as a conduit for human experience, and the nature of that experience is both decentralized and individualized (part of this has to do with the nature of the internet as a medium which I won't go into because it's very technical and I don't want to derail too far off the main question... although I kinda already am, lol). The internet is literally like alchemy to me, transmuting human experience into pure energy, information, and data that instantaneously reaches other people's ears in seconds. Just take this enneagram subforum community alone. There are people in the UK, all across the US, Europe, Asia, South America, Eurasia, Australia, etc., etc.

Personas form a fundamental part of one's identity, I think. How we present ourselves, how we view ourselves, etc. are simultaneously our sanctuaries and our prisons. This is the subject of exploration for Ingmar Bergman's classic 60s picture, aptly titled Persona:










McLuhan spent a lot of time stressing that any particular medium imposes a _*distortion *_upon our consciousness. In a sense, what McLuhan was describing was essentially what Enneagram and JCF are describing—imbalances to one's natural state, ego-distortions, whatever you want to call it. Overidentification with one aspect to the detriment of other aspects, essentially.

Lemme give you a great example ( pst @_Animal_ I just realized something very cool about the analogy I'm drawing which is that it relates DIRECTLY to your own personal story in terms of Voice): 

Television. Television extends one's capacity to see and listen, allowing our eyes to see things happening on the other side of the globe. What is the problem with Television? It turns our society into Mutes. The television audience does not have a say, cannot speak, and their voices are unheard. There is no outlet for personal expression through television in terms of audience participation. The audience, in essence is a muted slave to the tube.

So historically, what happened? What was the release valve that allowed the audience to recapture their Voice? The internet was born. The internet gave people back their voice. Just look around you... PerC, facebook, news, etc. everything is about audience participation in the age of the internet. The user is the central component or piece of focus in the age of the internet.

The most controversial aspect of McLuhan's theories relates to the Content of the medium. McLuhan often talked in riddles and double entendres. He played with language in part because what he was describing was so utterly radical that he basically had to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. Sorta like how Newton had to invent calculus, so McLuhan had to invent his own language.

Anyways, McLuhan famously postulated that *the content of a particular medium was irrelevant to the effect of the medium*. I don't think he was saying the content itself was irrelevant, but rather, the effect (i.e., behavioral ramifications, etc.) of a medium was quite independent of what you showed upon it [note: I'm still not 100% sure the content is irrelevant, but I do agree content is not the sole factor at play). 

What he meant by this, I think, is best illustrated through censorship. Does violence on TV, movies and videogames cause real-world violence?

In common sense terms, I don't think that if people play violent videogames, they automatically are psychopaths. What McLuhan was saying was this: WE ARE THE CONTENT OF A MEDIUM. Thus, what we see on TV is not shaping society so much as reflecting what is already there. In other words, the depiction of ourselves through whatever medium we have, is a window into ourselves. So a story is, in essence, a reflection of humanity, like a mirror.

Just as the eyes are "windows into the soul."
Just as movies, books, articles, blogs, forums, facebook, twitter, news, paintings, poems, technology, fireworks, etc. are extensions of ourselves.

_* Identity is an extension of the self.*_

Just as branches are extensions of a tree
Just as our nerves branch out from our central brain
Just as a computer's motherboard and peripherals extend the CPU

*Imagine this*: What would a wave be without the water across which it ripples? Or the photons that make it manifest? Or the air particles which vibrate sound waves? Can a wave exist within a vacuum totally divorced of all existence? No air, no light, no water. Can there be a wave?

Similarly, can beauty exist without the senses?

The point I'm making is that I don't believe identity and self are entirely separable. For instance: where is the true boundary between the Earth and the Space above it? There is no sharp line, and no clean-cut boundary, in my mind. Rather, it is about a process or a transition between two states... Identity, in this regard, I think slowly transforms and fuses with the Self (i.e., Who I am).

In other words, I think one's Path is ultimately unnameable and untouchable. What is a path? A straight line? The footsteps? The gravel underfoot? I believe these things are roadsigns that point the _*way *_to The Self, but I believe there is ultimately something ineffable and ethereal about The Self that cannot be pinned down in words. And perhaps the purpose of Art (if we are to be so cocky as to ascribe a purpose to it, LOL), is to make one Speechless... To stun us and overwhelm us with Being, perhaps.


----------



## mimesis

hal0hal0 said:


> So much agreement with this; one of my favorite members on the forum. I don't always understand what @mimesis is getting at right off the bat, but his insights are so often refreshing and challenging that I take a look whenever I can.
> 
> So to you mims, keep on doing what you're doing :


I drink to that! 










I don't always know what I'm getting at either :dry:


----------



## hal0hal0

More on topic: I'm having trouble pinning down my instinct stacking. I'm reasonably certain of Sp-dom (more like pretty damn certain). However the second instinct has been very fuzzy for me to figure out. Does anyone wanna take a stab at that second instinct? @_Animal_ @_Cosmic Orgasm_ and whoever else. @_kaleidoscope_ you get your ass in there too (will PM soonish... I'm easily distracted but 'tis in the pipeline).

I'll probably just go with Sp/Sp .



mimesis said:


> I drink to that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't always know what I'm getting at either :dry:


LMAO, Dionysus looks so intense, like a blue-steel male model. It looks like the cover of pulp romance novel. He's all beckoning and trying to be all seductive like "come, sit with me. Be merry. You know you want to." rawr


----------



## Sina

@hal0hal0

i think sp/sx? i take my time with spotting instincts. so, it'll take some observation. also i wanted to give you my skype. we could talk there too. i think..you might get where it comes from. 
i am catching up on my weekly readings (i am addicted to books. :3) and returning to stuff that needs tending to, after a break. so, my participation on forum will be sporadic. i haven't even gotten back to people's comments on my own typing from months past lol (inluding yours, will get to it).

i'll let you know thoughts on your stack as impressions take a more concrete expressible form.


----------



## hal0hal0

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_hal0hal0_
> 
> i think sp/sx? i take my time with spotting instincts. so, it'll take some observation. also i wanted to give you my skype. we could talk there too. i think..you might get where it comes from.
> i am catching up on my weekly readings (i am addicted to books. :3) and returning to stuff that needs tending to, after a break. so, my participation on forum will be sporadic. i haven't even gotten back to people's comments on my own typing from months past lol (inluding yours, will get to it).
> 
> i'll let you know thoughts on your stack as impressions take a more concrete expressible form.


Cool. Adding you now. I had to look it up but it makes perfect sense, I think, and I had a hunch in would be related to something impressive like Cleopatra/Isis. I've needed to catch up on stuff IRL too so I might be a bit sporadic. I really want my PerC VIP status, so I've kinda let things slip in those arenas.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

So, my only real uncertainty now is whether I'm Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx...


----------



## Sixty Nein

The Scorched Earth said:


> So, my only real uncertainty now is whether I'm Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx...


Those types aren't even that closely related to each other...tho. It's just an uncertain over which you are SP or SX while writing off being SO.


----------



## Watercolourful

I'm pretty sure I'm mistyped but I'm not really sure where to look at this point.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

notalwayshuman said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm mistyped but I'm not really sure where to look at this point.


Well, what makes you think you're mistyped?


----------



## Watercolourful

Kink said:


> Well, what makes you think you're mistyped?


I don't think I have the self-control of a 1.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

notalwayshuman said:


> I don't think I have the self-control of a 1.



Could you tell me your definition of self-control?


----------



## Watercolourful

Chained Divinity said:


> Could you tell me your definition of self-control?



Suppression. I have never struggled with or fought anger or hatred.


----------



## mimesis

Naqsh said:


> You don't see how "as 4 as it gets" in that context is oversimplified. I have said multiple times that I didn't presume you as saying all 4s were or should be artists, so that wasn't a generalization. So, that's a moot point. I have already made an argument as to why, personal significance and identity being tied into art, is as 4 as it get is a weak premise. If you think it was a strawman and was turned into a 'generalizing' statement, I could see that as miscommunication, although I am not willing to concede that merely having that stuff tied into art as a lifestyle or as lifeblood is 4 as it gets, unless you mean strictly archetypically as opposed to in the context of a vague 2 liner in typing case. Had you fleshed it out and made the distinctions @Animal did in her post, I wouldn't have addressed it. :3


You can address my posts any time, miss Naqsh, I'm cool with that! @Animal did an excellent job there indeed. She also needed a few more words, where I hoped a reference to romanticism, (as 4 as it gets) as an "attitude", or even better "attitudinal perspective" would do.

For instance, I wouldn't ascribe this attitude to Andy Warhol, and his Factory, who appears more oriented on "social significance", even on mass-appeal. ("15 minutes of fame" )










It would be similar as a businessman who identifies himself as a "Selfmade Man", and then dismiss being a businessman as typing to 3, "as a rule", just because other types can be businessmen as well, without looking further at someone's attitude, motivations, values, etc. To identify as a Selfmade Man, to me, is as 3 as it gets, and I say this in particular in reference to Holy Law. 




Naqsh said:


> This is the point I made earlier, about romance referencing idealism, fantasy, melancholy, awe, even horror (think Gothic Romance) and so on. As for eroticized romance, while archetypically 2ish (and I was more distinguishing it from how "romantic" is used in the 4 context as opposes to something sappy or saccharine), is obviously not relegated to any particular type.


I'm not talking about romanticism in terms of 1:1 romance, but in terms of worldview, self-concept, (mood) dispositions, etc. I'm not making a superficial comparison, because a central theme of the movement of romanticism, is *alienation from our origin*, from the world and ourselves and it expresses a melancholic "longing" (google *sehnsucht*) to restore that connection, with the world and our true authentic (original) self, and our unique and personal significance in the grand scheme of things. So, I'm not even talking about 1:1 romance. 












CS Lewis said:


> Sennsucht, which literally means “longing” or “yearning,” is both romantic and mystical in our present use of those words. It is, however, a good deal more specific than such terms. … The crucial concept in defining this attitude is best expressed in English by the word “nostalgia”. Even though*Sennsucht*may be made up of several components or appear in different forms (melancholy, wonder, yearning, etc.), basic to its various manifestations is an underlying sense of displacement or alienation from what is desired.
> 
> “In summary, Sennsucht is desire for something wondrous that is no more with us, but once was, and may be again.”
> 
> http://cslewisnotes.wordpress.com/tag/plato/


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

notalwayshuman said:


> Suppression. I have never struggled with or fought anger or hatred.



...hm. That actually _could_ be an indication you're a Six and not a One. I think (I'm quite new at this). I recall that both Sixes and Ones tend to develop loyalties to external authorities in some ways, though I'm a little uncertain how that manifests in 6. 

...unless of course you meant that you're more open with your rage than Ones, which isn't really a Six indicator. More of an indicator of 4 or 8, perhaps? Or Two...

You know what, I'm getting ahead of myself. Throw up a questionnaire answer set, then we'll talk. :tongue:

(Well, you and others. I'm new at typing, so it's understandable if you want a second opinion--though people here are a little generous with Type 6 and a little too loathe to apply 8...)


----------



## kaleidoscope

hal0hal0 said:


> More on topic: I'm having trouble pinning down my instinct stacking. I'm reasonably certain of Sp-dom (more like pretty damn certain). However the second instinct has been very fuzzy for me to figure out. Does anyone wanna take a stab at that second instinct? @_Animal_ @_Cosmic Orgasm_ and whoever else. @_kaleidoscope_ you get your ass in there too (will PM soonish... I'm easily distracted but 'tis in the pipeline).


Well, I don't get an Sx-last impression of you.. I don't have concrete 'evidence', though. You're also a 4, which is a pretty Sx-y type in the first place. Will have to think about it some more. Is there a specific reason you are considering Sx-last?

Also, same question to you! What would you say my instincts are?


----------



## Watercolourful

Chained Divinity said:


> ...hm. That actually _could_ be an indication you're a Six and not a One. I think (I'm quite new at this). I recall that both Sixes and Ones tend to develop loyalties to external authorities in some ways, though I'm a little uncertain how that manifests in 6.
> 
> ...unless of course you meant that you're more open with your rage than Ones, which isn't really a Six indicator. More of an indicator of 4 or 8, perhaps? Or Two...
> 
> You know what, I'm getting ahead of myself. Throw up a questionnaire answer set, then we'll talk. :tongue:


Thank you. I could potentially see 6.

Alright, I'll do that.


----------



## Watercolourful

Chained Divinity said:


> ...hm. That actually _could_ be an indication you're a Six and not a One. I think (I'm quite new at this). I recall that both Sixes and Ones tend to develop loyalties to external authorities in some ways, though I'm a little uncertain how that manifests in 6.
> 
> ...unless of course you meant that you're more open with your rage than Ones, which isn't really a Six indicator. More of an indicator of 4 or 8, perhaps? Or Two...
> 
> You know what, I'm getting ahead of myself. Throw up a questionnaire answer set, then we'll talk. :tongue:
> 
> (Well, you and others. I'm new at typing, so it's understandable if you want a second opinion--though people here are a little generous with Type 6 and a little too loathe to apply 8...)


http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?p=8405226

Done.

Thanks for the tip.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Sorry I replied late, it took me a while to figure out how to answer this.



hal0hal0 said:


> IFor instance, I grew up accustomed to the idea that most parents beat their children. I grew up to believe that every little mistake I made was being watched and that I must be perfect in how I appeased my parents. In some regard, I was subservient to my parents and I grew to devote my whole life to making them happy or at least, staying under their radar. (to the point that either Core 1 or 2 is not outside the realm of possibility, insofar as the perfectionist tendencies and the repression of personal need and self-sacrifice, respectively).


It's so interesting how similar upbringing can lead to different attitudes. I too, while growing up, have gotten discipline in the form of beating, pretty frequently too. Usually, it was because I was very outspoken and argumentative with my parents, which was considered unacceptable and disrespectful. I questioned them, talked to them aggressively whenever I was fed up, and wasn't really a docile daughter in any way, shape or form. It was also usually the belt for me as well. But even when I was much younger, I always knew and felt so much anger at the way I was treated. It never felt fair to me, and so I reacted by fighting for freedom even more, until it got to a point where I just recognized that it was just making things worse. It's interesting that it created in you the desire to be perfect in their eyes, that never happened with me. 



> "Being grounded" (LOL, I actually had to look up what this was because we never got off with "being grounded") or getting a little slap in the face for wrongdoings, for me and my sister, were rather foreign concepts. It's like: Oh, you lost your allowance? Well, get this spoiled little brat, we don't get an allowance and we still have to work like dogs for our parents (ironically, we actually were forced to eat dog food on one occasion, for spilling it). In some regard, I think fully westernized families are a bit too soft and lax. No, for us, it would be an all night long serenade of belts, slippers, rage and beating us often to the point we could barely walk and were numb from crying in pain. The slipper tended to sting more on the surface level, but the belt went deeper. An interesting one-two punch from the people doing it out of love and caring.


:\ I know what you mean about the belt. I once had a giant bruise on my arm caused by the metallic part of the belt, it hurt like hell for days. _And _I was scolded for wearing a T-shirt even though it was the middle of the summer. 



> All around, not a happy household. Sometimes they'd both beat us together, often times mom fought dad and dad fought mom. And so on. There's a lot of details I'd rather not go into because it's starting to sound kitsch, but the point I'm trying to make is that struggle is very relative to the individual person's experience. I cannot and should not ascribe my standards to another, because just as there are probably people who have had it easier than me, there are just as many that have had it way, way worse than I.


I do understand your point, and I agree. I never said that a person's experience could be universally judged the same way, but that doesn't mean an outsider's observation doesn't have value. 



> Of course, to suggest that my parents were bad people? No, never. From what I've painted here, it may seem that way, but it's but a sliver of the whole cake. For each beating was profuse apologies that followed, making up for it by taking us to bookstores or to go see a movie. Maybe from an outside perspective it's "wrong" to beat children to that extent, but for me, it is simply a phase of my life. My parents were my gods as much as my devils, and as I've said before: Sympathy for the devil includes the devil. I could see where my parents were coming from. Immigrants who have worked for everything their whole life, undergone poverty, starvation, living in cardboard boxes, political exile from their hoome country, etc... and here I was a spoiled little Americanized brat that took basic things for granted, such as a bowl of rice.


Yes, I know what you mean. Sometimes when I share similar experiences with others, especially people with a more Western perspective (I'm Lebanese), they comment on how horrible my parents are, but to me, it's not the case. I mean, I used to be angry for sure, but I also understood their perspective more and more over time. I wasn't exactly an angel either, and more than once, I've provoked them. Does that mean beating me was justified? Definitely not. But it doesn't make them monsters. It was the only way they knew how to react when their teenage daughter was rebelling against them.


----------



## Watercolourful

I'm wondering if I could be an Eight instead of a One.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

notalwayshuman said:


> I'm wondering if I could be an Eight instead of a One.



I read your questionnaire, and both 8 and 6 are definitely possible. :happy:

I'm trying to determine a way to definitively rule one out...:laughing:

Ooh! Actually, I have a thought--could you describe any strong commitments you've developed or abandoned? In particular, how quick you are to abandon them hints at a type...one of the hallmarks of Type 6 is that they tend to cling to their existing beliefs and relationships much more than Eights (or most other types) because they feel afraid when they feel like their identity might become inconsistent.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Chained Divinity said:


> Ooh! Actually, I have a thought--could you describe any strong commitments you've developed or abandoned? In particular, how quick you are to abandon them hints at a type...one of the hallmarks of Type 6 is that they tend to cling to their existing beliefs and relationships much more than Eights (or most other types) because they feel afraid when they feel like their identity might become inconsistent.


Identity? Don't think that's something I've worried about much as a 6. It'd be more about security.


----------



## Animal

notalwayshuman said:


> I'm wondering if I could be an Eight instead of a One.


What would it take for you to trust someone?

What would qualify as betrayal?

How would you react to someone who betrayed you?

Are you protective of those close to you? If so, how do you protect them?

What does vulnerability mean to you? Have you ever felt vulnerable?


Do you consider yourself idealistic, cynical, or apathetic? What are your ideals, if any?


Do you have ideas about the person you would like to be? What are they?

How close is that to the person you are?


Do you usually fulfill your daily agenda? If not, do you feel guilty?


----------



## Sixty Nein

@notalwayshuman 

I've read your questionnaire it seems to me that you are fairly clearly an 8. You don't have the ambivalent nature that the 6 have, and those who assess you as being a type 6 would be rather shallow about it. Fuck I wouldn't even say that you have an 6 fix, if I believed in them.

I believe that others have already pointed out as to how you could be a 8 though, I might change my mind based on what you answer of @Animal 's own little questionnaire though.

A lot of what you said reminds me what @Blystone said about his hypothetical type 11 type. Your questionnaire is less about enforcing the will, and more about being self-reliant. You don't seem to have the particularly antagonistic stylings of the type 8, though that is the only type that I could see you ass. I am not very sure what to think of that myself, but here is what he said about type 11. As well as clarifying it's relationship with type 6 and 8 from this thread.



Blystone said:


> I'd say their anger is a lot like an 8's. I think associating what I classify as type 11 with 6 is fairly disingenuous, because while 11s do have a kind of anxiety, it isn't the same as a 6's, but I do it for the sake of a common reference point. Anyway, 11s anxiety stem from their distrust of other people. They don't trust them to be competent, they don't trust them to protect them, they don't trust them for.. anything. This issue with trusting other people is something I've noticed in the other types I classify as sensory based, but it's most obvious with 11s. I find that 11s are more pragmatic and grounded than 8s are. They don't seem to be the type of people who theorize about the complexities of existence or the metaphysical world. They're also a good bit more expressive with their emotions, not in the way a 2 is but they don't deny or reject them the way an 8 would. 8s are more calculated and strategical in their battles. An 11 is more brute-force domination; unrefined, but immensely destructive. The two have a lot of similarities, but their differences are more than evident.




Your questionnaire sort of reminded me more of than than what 8 really, but eh. It's not very refined, or at least I'm not aware of it's nature very well. My mind has been rather cloudy lately, and confused so I might not be able to truly assess the nature of your type in an analytical way, but it is still something worth noticing. Though I honestly don't know. I just think it's worth looking into instead of 6. So for you it would be 8/11 > 6

It also reminded me what he said about type 12, which is more of a passive type that is mostly about self-reliance if I recall correctly. I probably shouldn't reference him too much, but eh. I suppose that would fit decently into the themes of the Earth/Sensory/Growth triad in the dodegram. Which is something that he also made up, and that I occasionally elaborate on.


----------



## Watercolourful

Chained Divinity said:


> I read your questionnaire, and both 8 and 6 are definitely possible. :happy:
> 
> I'm trying to determine a way to definitively rule one out...:laughing:


Thank you so much for reading it and for all of your input.



> Ooh! Actually, I have a thought--could you describe any strong commitments you've developed or abandoned? In particular, how quick you are to abandon them hints at a type...one of the hallmarks of Type 6 is that they tend to cling to their existing beliefs and relationships much more than Eights (or most other types) because they feel afraid when they feel like their identity might become inconsistent.


To be honest, I can't think of any such commitments. None of my romantic partners in the past few years have been people I was strongly bonded to. I also have not had many friends in recent years, apart from one who I met online and do not have the chance to contact as often as I woud prefer. 



Animal said:


> What would it take for you to trust someone?


Very likely a miracle. It is difficult for me to see other people as something to be trusted at this time. The friend I met online 



> What would qualify as betrayal?


Broken promises and lies are a form of betrayal if they are not apologized for/cannot be apologized for. Any incident in which a person pretends to be something that they are not and uses this against me is a form of betrayal.



> How would you react to someone who betrayed you?


I would confront them. If they do not have a reason to be forgiven and they have hurt me badly, I will hurt them. If they have not hurt me badly, I will cut them out of my life (forcibly if needed). If they have a reason to be forgiven, I will take that into account, and then decide what to do.



> Are you protective of those close to you? If so, how do you protect them?


Yes. I protect them by fighting any threat that may come to them, and by ensuring they have their needs.

This might be inaccurate because of the time span between when I was last in a situation like this.



> What does vulnerability mean to you? Have you ever felt vulnerable?


Vulnerability is when a person cannot provide for or cannot protect themselves. Yes, I have felt vulnerable.




> Do you consider yourself idealistic, cynical, or apathetic? What are your ideals, if any?


Apathetic. I don't think I have ideals right now.




> Do you have ideas about the person you would like to be? What are they?


Not many ideas. I want to be physically strong, but I believe that I have currently achieved that. Other than that, I want to be a person who is able to survive.



> How close is that to the person you are?


Close.



> Do you usually fulfill your daily agenda? If not, do you feel guilty?


I don't really have agendas. I do things as they occur to me.


----------



## Watercolourful

@Twrankt

Thank you for your input, it's very interesting. Are types "10, 11, and 12" a part of a branching theory of Enneagram?


----------



## Sixty Nein

notalwayshuman said:


> @Twrankt
> 
> Thank you for your input, it's very interesting. Are types "10, 11, and 12" a part of a branching theory of Enneagram?


I've not thought about it that much, you should talk to blystone about it. I could give you my own opinion on the types, but there is even a point in which even I, a person who is very reliant on conjecture to demand some sort of concrete or at least a sturdy basis for me to propel my rather poorly-thought out thoughts to ring out into the air.


----------



## Watercolourful

Twrankt said:


> I've not thought about it that much, you should talk to blystone about it. I could give you my own opinion on the types, but there is even a point in which even I, a person who is very reliant on conjecture to demand some sort of concrete or at least a sturdy basis for me to propel my rather poorly-thought out thoughts to ring out into the air.


Alright, thank you anyway.


----------



## Animal

notalwayshuman said:


> @_Twrankt_
> 
> Thank you for your input, it's very interesting. Are types "10, 11, and 12" a part of a branching theory of Enneagram?


Those are a separate, pet theory a few people are into on forum. I personally don't know much about it but I will try to look into it when I can. Classical enneagram is numbers 1-9, and most people here will type you in classical enneagram.


Your answers so far strike me as 6 or 8. Core 1 is unlikely if you don't have ideals. I won't rule it out yet though, because some people take their ideals/ fear/ anger/ trust issues for granted.



What makes you feel guilty?

How often do you feel angry? What is it like?

How often do you feel afraid? What is it like?


----------



## Watercolourful

Animal said:


> Those are a separate, pet theory a few people are into on forum. I personally don't know much about it but I will try to look into it when I can. Classical enneagram is numbers 1-9, and most people here will type you in classical enneagram.


I see. Thank you.



> Your answers so far strike me as 6 or 8. Core 1 is unlikely if you don't have ideals. I won't rule it out yet though, because some people take their ideals/ fear/ anger/ trust issues for granted.


Alright.



> What makes you feel guilty?


When I fail to protect someone or something.



> How often do you feel angry? What is it like?


It varies. I feel angry when I witness injustices. It's as I described it in the other thread, my body temperature rises and my thoughts become unclear, and I retaliate without thinking. 



> How often do you feel afraid? What is it like?


I hardly feel afraid. In the times I have, I felt extremely hopeless. The back of my neck stiffens, and I feel small.


----------



## Paradigm

Chained Divinity said:


> Ooh! Actually, I have a thought--could you describe any strong commitments you've developed or abandoned? In particular, how quick you are to abandon them hints at a type...one of the hallmarks of Type 6 is that they tend to cling to their existing beliefs and relationships much more than Eights (or most other types) because they feel afraid when they feel like their identity might become inconsistent.


Well, firstly, agreed with @Kink that "identity" is probably the wrong word.

Secondly, if you asked me this question I wouldn't really give much of a 6ish answer -- or at least, not very much of the stereotypical SOC 6 answer. Really, I don't make strong commitments, unless you count my friends. And while being a friend is a "commitment," surely, I doubt that most people would attribute that word to friendship when randomly asked. But aligning myself with something? No, never done so. Also have very little issues with dropping commitments if they prove to be harmful towards myself (strong SP, limited identification with "attachment type," and so on).

Thirdly, I have no idea why people are typing @notalwayshuman as 8 based on their incredibly short questionnaire. Really, NAH, it's not near in-depth enough to even begin suggesting a type for you.


----------



## Watercolourful

Paradigm said:


> Well, firstly, agreed with @Kink that "identity" is probably the wrong word.
> 
> Secondly, if you asked me this question I wouldn't really give much of a 6ish answer -- or at least, not very much of the stereotypical SOC 6 answer. Really, I don't make strong commitments, unless you count my friends. And while being a friend is a "commitment," surely, I doubt that most people would attribute that word to friendship when randomly asked. But aligning myself with something? No, never done so. Also have very little issues with dropping commitments if they prove to be harmful towards myself (strong SP, limited identification with "attachment type," and so on).


I relate to this.



> Thirdly, I have no idea why people are typing @notalwayshuman as 8 based on their incredibly short questionnaire. Really, NAH, it's not near in-depth enough to even begin suggesting a type for you.


What do you suggest I do instead?


----------



## Figure

Paradigm said:


> Thirdly, I have no idea why people are typing @_notalwayshuman_ as 8 based on their incredibly short questionnaire. Really, NAH, it's not near in-depth enough to even begin suggesting a type for you.


Beat me to it, I was about to say the same thing.

@_notalwayshuman_ your questionnaire has a few CP6/8-ish words in it, but verbiage in an enneagram questionnaire means a lot less than the actual internal mechanisms you use by habit. Overall, my opinion (and I may be the only one here who thinks this) is that online written questionnaires are more fun to read and write than they are useful in exhibiting one's type. 

How much reading have you done with respect to the primary authors (Ichazo, Naranjo, Palmer, Maitri, etc)? Not to be too blunt, but understanding your type works better on-forum when you've read some of these works, sifted them through, and come up with a set of reasons, based on what you've read, that you may be the type you've chosen. Was there something specific that made you choose 1?


----------



## Paradigm

notalwayshuman said:


> What do you suggest I do instead?


You need to go into the reasons behind your answers. There was good example in this thread:


> Vulnerability is when a person cannot provide for or cannot protect themselves. Yes, I have felt vulnerable.


Sure, this does answer the questions, but it doesn't allow us a look into your mind. It would help much if you answered these as well:
When have you felt vulnerable? Why? What did you do to resolve it? 

I understand if this particular question hit too close to home and if you don't want to answer it in depth. But the same concept applies for many other questions. You need to delve into the _reasons _-- not just your response -- to figure out your true type.

I just woke up, so I'm off to get "breakfast." Feel free to ask questions, I'll answer when I get back.


----------



## Watercolourful

Figure said:


> Beat me to it, I was about to say the same thing.
> 
> @_notalwayshuman_ your questionnaire has a few CP6/8-ish words in it, but verbiage in an enneagram questionnaire means a lot less than the actual internal mechanisms you use by habit. Overall, my opinion (and I may be the only one here who thinks this) is that online written questionnaires are more fun to read and write than they are useful in exhibiting one's type.
> 
> How much reading have you done with respect to the primary authors (Ichazo, Naranjo, Palmer, Maitri, etc)? Not to be too blunt, but understanding your type works better on-forum when you've read some of these works, sifted them through, and come up with a set of reasons, based on what you've read, that you may be the type you've chosen. Was there something specific that made you choose 1?


I see. 

I've read no Ichazo, some Naranjo, no Palmer, some Maitri, etc. I don't have very much time lately so I read what I can. 

A few events in my life had led me to become bitter about injustice, and because of my situation I could not express this the way I would prefer without facing serious consequences. I had to force myself to quiet my natural instincts if I wanted to keep my freedom. I saw this as being indicative of 1 and typed myself as such.


----------



## Watercolourful

Paradigm said:


> You need to go into the reasons behind your answers. There was good example in this thread:
> 
> Sure, this does answer the questions, but it doesn't allow us a look into your mind. It would help much if you answered these as well:
> When have you felt vulnerable? Why? What did you do to resolve it?
> 
> I understand if this particular question hit too close to home and if you don't want to answer it in depth. But the same concept applies for many other questions. You need to delve into the _reasons _-- not just your response -- to figure out your true type.
> 
> I just woke up, so I'm off to get "breakfast." Feel free to ask questions, I'll answer when I get back.



Alright, I see.

Would anyone be interested in messaging me privately or exchanging Skype? There are a few things I'm not comfortable with sharing but that will likely answer these questions.


----------



## Figure

notalwayshuman said:


> I see.
> 
> I've read no Ichazo, some Naranjo, no Palmer, some Maitri, etc. I don't have very much time lately so I read what I can.
> 
> A few events in my life had led me to become bitter about injustice, and because of my situation I could not express this the way I would prefer without facing serious consequences. I had to force myself to quiet my natural instincts if I wanted to keep my freedom. I saw this as being indicative of 1 and typed myself as such.


I found Maitri to be helpful starting out - easy to read, not overly complex. 

Your quote is really interesting, regardless of what it says about your type. I'm not sure it's enough to type by on its own, but if you need a sounding board I am very happy to speak privately, as everyone here almost always is.


----------



## Watercolourful

Figure said:


> I found Maitri to be helpful starting out - easy to read, not overly complex.
> 
> Your quote is really interesting, regardless of what it says about your type. I'm not sure it's enough to type by on its own, but if you need a sounding board I am very happy to speak privately, as everyone here almost always is.


I'll take a look. There seems to be a wealth of resources on this forum.

Thank you. I'll message you my Skype.


----------



## Animal

notalwayshuman said:


> I'll take a look. There seems to be a wealth of resources on this forum.
> 
> Thank you. I'll message you my Skype.


You can message me too if you'd like. I am better at asking questions, but not very good at typing people. I know my enneagram well, but typing people takes a long time. However - I might be helpful in the process, or so people have told me. Since I am psychologically oriented in general. So if you and @_Figure_ would like to invite me to group chat i'd be glad to. Figure has my skype. I can pull in someone else who is good too, if they're around. I can talk one on one too, but, like I said it takes me a LONG TIME to figure out types. I agree wholeheartedly with @_Paradigm_ that there wasn't enough info there, but i was jump-starting types in order to gt out more questions. My process makes sense to no one but me, but I promise it does work eventually! lol *hides my Ne*


----------



## Arya

Paradigm said:


> Doesn't _everyone _feel like that when they're being excluded? Humans, regardless of type, have a basic need to belong in some way. Of course, what you say it here is only a tiny picture of when/how you feel; details are important, and I don't know what exactly you meant. But still, the feeling of frustration over ostracization is not limited to SOC-first -- as a SOC-last, I know this very well. I'm sometimes hyper-sensitive to when people are excluding me* and it never ceases to hurt.
> 
> I'm sure it is your core type playing a bit of a role here, but at the same time, it's also a fair bit of human nature. If you elaborate -- when you feel this way, what you do about it, etc. -- it might help more.
> 
> * Though interestingly it's only been _really _recently that I've come to consider different reasons for exclusion. I always assumed it due to the obvious, and have stumbled across others talking about non-obvious reasons I've never noticed. Obvious being my outward appearance, non-obvious being unconscious societal biases.


I think it is influenced by type though. I tend to just assume on some level that people will just like me and include me and that I will be able to find something to relate it, and because I truly believe that deep down that's how I see my interactions with people. I will automatically find all the ways to relate and fit in. I'm not SO dom though. I'm SO aux, so I tend to just use it without much thought. But I do believe my attitude does change my experiences to a degree. If I expected to not be liked or to not be able to relate than it would certainly cut me off to a degree. It honestly puzzled me to a degree. I wondered how I could get so lucky time and time again to always belong like that. And then I started to realize it probably had a lot to do with my initial assumption that I just do. And then I started talking to people who considered them outcasts and the distinction became more obvious in the way they behaved towards potential rejection towards the way I do. I consistently, subconsciously do what will connect me to others. My first response to being insulted or picked on has always been to learn the other's person language until they're telling me everything and I find the way to connect and find the way to ease their barriers and insecurities. It works for over 90% of people I meet. It's really hard to explain, but even when I was 5/6 yrs. old the first thing I noticed was people's vulnerabilities. I could see all of their insecurities which could potentially cause them to lash out at others and push them away. I don't know how many times I tried to explain that to people even when I was a little kid, but none of my friends ever listened. They were too busy protecting their own egos.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Paradigm said:


> Doesn't _everyone _feel like that when they're being excluded? Humans, regardless of type, have a basic need to belong in some way. Of course, what you say it here is only a tiny picture of when/how you feel; details are important, and I don't know what exactly you meant. But still, the feeling of frustration over ostracization is not limited to SOC-first -- as a SOC-last, I know this very well. I'm sometimes hyper-sensitive to when people are excluding me* and it never ceases to hurt.


You're absolutely right about this,and this is an excellent point, except I feel like this even when I'm not actually being excluded. I tend to approach all social situations with the expectation that I'm going to be pushed aside and even sometimes unconsciously differentiate myself even when there's no active exclusion going on. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Like when I used to work as a special ed teacher, I used to go to different branches of the center depending on the need. One branch specifically had a lot of teachers my age, who even went to the same university I did, but because I wouldn't go there often, I didn't know everyone as much and they all had close friends there already. Which is normal if you think of the situation, right? To me, that was just.. great, this is happening again. Obviously, if I was more engaging/fun I wouldn't have this problem, etc.. 

In this specific situation, I was friendly but I kept my distance, because the rational part of me that understood why this happened also knew that I couldn't force it, especially since I wasn't there often. And the irrational part made me set myself aside even more, be more quiet. Sometimes I would just come in, do my thing and leave, because if I wasn't trying, then there was no reason for me to believe it was my personality at fault. 

Does this help at all?


----------



## hal0hal0

kaleidoscope said:


> You're absolutely right about this,and this is an excellent point, except I feel like this even when I'm not actually being excluded. I tend to approach all social situations with the expectation that I'm going to be pushed aside and even sometimes unconsciously differentiate myself even when there's no active exclusion going on. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.


I think this has more to do with a 4 fixation (i.e., alienation, self-defeat, expectation of "glass half empty" etc.) than it does the instinctual centers. Think of Scrooge from _A Christmas Carol_, playing the voyeur and being the outsider looking in at the happy little family (although Scrooge I'd say archetypically/archetypally (WTF is the word for this???) is more 5w4 Sp-dom or something).



kaleidoscope said:


> In this specific situation, I was friendly but I kept my distance, because the rational part of me that understood why this happened also knew that I couldn't force it, especially since I wasn't there often. And the irrational part made me set myself aside even more, be more quiet. Sometimes I would just come in, do my thing and leave, because if I wasn't trying, then there was no reason for me to believe it was my personality at fault.
> 
> Does this help at all?


To me that doesn't sound Soc-first. I'm reasonably certain of a Soc-last typing for myself, and when it comes to networking, it's not that I'm unaware of the necessity of it (more like obligation, lol), but I simply cannot wait for it to be done with. I'm like a floating bobber on the water's surface, and every time I try to dive into the Soc realm, I simply float back to the surface again, and retreat into my little bubble of "let me focus on my own thing." It is very, very difficult for me to sustain that "Soc" mentality. For instance, I may go through spurts of "higher awareness" keeping up with current events or politics, but admittedly, a lot of that is borne out of guilt b/c I've neglected those areas. 

I've often wondered whether the first instinct could be marked by a sense of overconfidence, even, or at least overindulgence; a mode that becomes so common to us that it is like breathing. I suppose the dominant instinct is more accurately akin to a comfort zone. For Sp-concerns, I sometimes get the impression that the world will simply have to wait for me to feel "ready" to break out of my shell (which makes me sound like a total fucking diva, lmao... or at least closet diva).

Alright, I wrote this in haste b/c I have to go soon, so I may have to amend bits of it.

Perhaps.... the dominant instinct is best thought of as a habit or addiction that is hard to kick, just as the last instinct is an obligation we have difficulty sustaining (simply b/c I may not like it/it's uncomfortable).


----------



## Paradigm

Will reply to everything else, just this stuck out to me:



hal0hal0 said:


> I'm reasonably certain of a Soc-last typing for myself, and when it comes to networking, it's not that I'm unaware of the necessity of it (more like obligation, lol), but I simply cannot wait for it to be done with.


See, as a SOC-last myself, I was unaware of networking as a _requirement_. I thought of it more as "a helpful skill but not really needed." In my (idealistic) mind, networking shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. Employees (easiest example) should be hired upon their talents and willingness to do the job, not on how well they get along with others or who they know. Jobs should be available for everyone, not just the schmoozers. And yet... it's the opposite of what I think it should be, and I truly don't know how to handle that.

Ofc, I realize that I can be unaware, in general, of the world, so I'm not saying my brand of SOC-last is the only brand 



> For instance, I may go through spurts of "higher awareness" keeping up with current events or politics, but admittedly, a lot of that is borne out of guilt b/c I've neglected those areas.


Have totally gone through this. I periodically start trying to keep up with world news, which inevitably ends not even a week after I try.


----------



## hal0hal0

Paradigm said:


> Will reply to everything else, just this stuck out to me:
> 
> 
> See, as a SOC-last myself, I was unaware of networking as a _requirement_. I thought of it more as "a helpful skill but not really needed." In my (idealistic) mind, networking shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. Employees (easiest example) should be hired upon their talents and willingness to do the job, not on how well they get along with others or who they know. Jobs should be available for everyone, not just the schmoozers. And yet... it's the opposite of what I think it should be, and I truly don't know how to handle that.
> 
> Ofc, I realize that I can be unaware, in general, of the world, so I'm not saying my brand of SOC-last is the only brand


Oh, I think I had the _*exact *_same mindset you do (and still do in many ways)... it's just that I learned the hard way that my stubbornness isn't getting me anywhere. I really, really *hate *the idea of networking or being a cog in the machine or "playing the game" of social hierarchies, etc., but it hasn't done me any favors at all to stick with that. Given my present career path, I need to swallow my pride or else I will drown amidst the competition (because I already sort of am drowning). 

I hate to say I "lost the battle" but in some regard, I have put aside my crusade that networking is superfluous and unnecessary.

Do I like it? Absolutely not. There is a part of me that thinks playing these games is nothing short of suicide. But for the sake of my own survival and interests, I have to learn to play the game (so I guess I've had to filter a lot of this through Sp). As much as I hate to say it's "do or die" time, it really is, for me. My pride has got to stand down, when it comes to this, lol.

And in truth, playing the game is not going to kill me. I can still be competent and do a good job while "keeping up appearances," networking, etc.


----------



## Paradigm

hal0hal0 said:


> Oh, I think I had the _*exact *_same mindset you do (and still do in many ways)... it's just that I learned the hard way that my stubbornness isn't getting me anywhere. I really, really *hate *the idea of networking or being a cog in the machine or "playing the game" of social hierarchies, etc., but it hasn't done me any favors at all to stick with that. Given my present career path, I need to swallow my pride or else I will drown amidst the competition (because I already sort of am drowning).
> 
> I hate to say I "lost the battle" but in some regard, I have put aside my crusade that networking is superfluous and unnecessary.
> 
> Do I like it? Absolutely not. There is a part of me that thinks playing these games is nothing short of suicide. But for the sake of my own survival and interests, I have to learn to play the game (so I guess I've had to filter a lot of this through Sp). As much as I hate to say it's "do or die" time, it really is, for me. My pride has got to stand down, when it comes to this, lol.
> 
> And in truth, playing the game is not going to kill me. I can still be competent and do a good job while "keeping up appearances," networking, etc.


Well, really, the main reasons I haven't started "networking" it is quite unrelated to the Enneagram. Physical barriers, mostly; it's hard to sell yourself when you have no way to follow up on it, or even initiate it. If I didn't have those barriers, I'd likely be at or near the point you are. 

I've moved past most desires to "fight the system." And I know my ideals are just ideals, not reality. But given I have to work on _several _other things (things most people don't) before I can show any progress, I probably sound way more daydreamer-ish than I intended since I don't have the real-world experience to back it up yet


----------



## decretum

I volunteer.


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## julesbeex23

what am I? what am I? lol. I remember the first time I took it I got a one. than several months later (now) I took it and got a 6w5. to be sure I took it a few more times (I tried different sites) and got everything under the sun. (1, 2, 3, 7 Xp).


----------



## Scelerat

Bah this thread has gone from insults to being constructive. What's the point of this?


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## Daeva

Scelerat said:


> Bah this thread has gone from insults to being constructive. What's the point of this?


IKR? Why people keep ruining this with quality posts I'll never understand.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

I'm starting to think I'm an esfp. What do you think? :wink:


----------



## kaleidoscope

hal0hal0 said:


> I think this has more to do with a 4 fixation (i.e., alienation, self-defeat, expectation of "glass half empty" etc.) than it does the instinctual centers. Think of Scrooge from _A Christmas Carol_, playing the voyeur and being the outsider looking in at the happy little family (although Scrooge I'd say archetypically/archetypally (WTF is the word for this???) is more 5w4 Sp-dom or something).


You're right, a lot of it is more 4like than instinct-related. But do you relate to my post, as an Sp 4? Do you find yourself having the same thoughts and reactions to being in a social environment? I'm curious about your experience as an SP-dom.



> To me that doesn't sound Soc-first. I'm reasonably certain of a Soc-last typing for myself, and when it comes to networking, it's not that I'm unaware of the necessity of it (more like obligation, lol), but I simply cannot wait for it to be done with. I'm like a floating bobber on the water's surface, and every time I try to dive into the Soc realm, I simply float back to the surface again, and retreat into my little bubble of "let me focus on my own thing." It is very, very difficult for me to sustain that "Soc" mentality. For instance, I may go through spurts of "higher awareness" keeping up with current events or politics, but admittedly, a lot of that is borne out of guilt b/c I've neglected those areas.


Could you elaborate a bit more on why it doesn't sound SOC-first to you? I relate to you in some ways, mostly with regards to forced social interactions that I don't personally seek out. In my culture, we have a lot of family gatherings, and we have to keep in touch with different cousins & uncles/aunts (I have like 15 cousins at the very least), and it's all very intertwined. So I often am reluctant to participate in this, it truly feels like an obligation because I'm not doing this out of interest/closeness a lot of the time, but simply to maintain those connections. It felt like SUCH a chore. 

I also find myself missing out on a lot of subtler social cues. For example, someone saying something implicitly, hidden comments that aren't very obvious, or getting a bit bothered and not expressing it. My sister will often notice and comment on them after the fact, like "Did you see _how _she said that? Like she knows!" and I'm like LOL what?? I didn't pick up on that at all..



> I've often wondered whether the first instinct could be marked by a sense of overconfidence, even, or at least overindulgence; a mode that becomes so common to us that it is like breathing. I suppose the dominant instinct is more accurately akin to a comfort zone. For Sp-concerns, I sometimes get the impression that the world will simply have to wait for me to feel "ready" to break out of my shell (which makes me sound like a total fucking diva, lmao... or at least closet diva).


I don't really agree with the primary instinct being an area of comfort. Overindulgence, definitely. The root of the primary instinct is an insecurity, a compulsion, and a need. There isn't much comfort in that, at least, not the way I've understood it. The way I've seen it described, it's that the primary instinct is too hot, the secondary instinct is juust right, and the blind spot is the coldest, the one you pay least attention to. 

Overconfidence does sound interesting though. I'd love it if you could elaborate on that part specifically. 



> Perhaps.... the dominant instinct is best thought of as a habit or addiction that is hard to kick, just as the last instinct is an obligation we have difficulty sustaining (simply b/c I may not like it/it's uncomfortable).


I completely agree with this.


----------



## mimesis

@kaleidoscope

That's an interesting point, about family, because some argue close relatives as part of Sp. (or Self) Which I could agree with.

But where do you draw the line, when you live in a more tribalistic culture?


----------



## kaleidoscope

mimesis said:


> @_kaleidoscope_
> 
> That's an interesting point, about family, because some argue close relatives as part of Sp. (or Self) Which I could agree with.
> 
> But where do you draw the line, when you live in a more tribalistic culture?


Well, I would have to say immediate family would be more SP than say, extended family and relatives. My explanation may be a bit clumsy cause I don't have a perfect grasp of the self-pres instinct so correct me if I'm wrong, but immediate family fulfills the need to build a home/nest, and contributes to the domesticity aspect of the Sp instinct. It's limited to a few individuals. 

Extended family on the other hand, is on a larger scale and involves maintaining a network of relationships beyond the nuclear family. I know my parents maintain those bonds because they feel like this is where they belong, and it reinforces their social/cultural attribution. Who am I? I'm X's sister, Y's aunt, Z's godmother, etc.. 

What do you think?


----------



## Sonny

hal0hal0 said:


> To me that doesn't sound Soc-first. I'm reasonably certain of a Soc-last typing for myself, and when it comes to networking, it's not that I'm unaware of the necessity of it (more like obligation, lol), but I simply cannot wait for it to be done with. I'm like a floating bobber on the water's surface, and every time I try to dive into the Soc realm, I simply float back to the surface again, and retreat into my little bubble of "let me focus on my own thing." It is very, very difficult for me to sustain that "Soc" mentality. For instance, I may go through spurts of "higher awareness" keeping up with current events or politics, but admittedly, a lot of that is borne out of guilt b/c I've neglected those areas.


So first doesn't imply networking, it implies an innate understanding of the interconnections and social requirements of networking. As the preoccupation is fitting into social groups in whatever way the Enneagram type focuses on, it can include a pushing-back against social interaction due to the hyper-awareness of not 'fitting it'.

Not saying Kalei is So dom, I've not considered her that way in the past so it would take an adjustment to 'neutral' my view to consider it, just that what she has posted there does not preclude So dom at all, imo.


----------



## mimesis

kaleidoscope said:


> Well, I would have to say immediate family would be more SP than say, extended family and relatives. My explanation may be a bit clumsy cause I don't have a perfect grasp of the self-pres instinct so correct me if I'm wrong, but immediate family fulfills the need of building a home/nest, and contributes to the domesticity aspect of the Sp instinct. It's limited to a few individuals.
> 
> Extended family on the other hand, is on a larger scale and involves maintaining a network of relationships beyond the nuclear family. I know my parents maintain those bonds because they feel like this is where they belong, and it reinforces their social/cultural attribution. Who am I? I'm X's sister, Y's aunt, Z's godmother, etc..
> 
> What do you think?


Well I have been in Jordan, and I've become more aquainted with how life (business) moves along tribelines, in terms of "preservation". I also spoke there with a guy from Canada, who had worked for 2 years in Quatar, and said the nepotism drove him mad, because the interest of the tribe was more important than the company, having to work with people who were not really qualified, but got the position or job, because he was a nephew or whatever. So, there is a much stronger identification with the family/tribe, than I am used to, and helping the tribe is much more seen as equal to helping yourself. 

Lately I have spoken to nephews in a family gathering, some for the first time in my life and he was older than half a century. We were more like, damn we should do this more often, lol. 

I noticed though that in the breakdown of 27 subtypes, there was some difference, for instance for withdrawn types like 4 and 5 Self was more personal, and (by head) type 1 and 7 also included relatives. But don't ask why.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Sonny said:


> So first doesn't imply networking, it implies an innate understanding of the interconnections and social requirements of networking. As the preoccupation is fitting into social groups in whatever way the Enneagram type focuses on, it can include a pushing-back against social interaction due to the hyper-awareness of not 'fitting it'.
> 
> Not saying Kalei is So dom, I've not considered her that way in the past so it would take an adjustment to 'neutral' my view to consider it, just that what she has posted there does not preclude So dom at all, imo.


I'd love to hear your thoughts on my instincts Sonny! Whenever ready :3



mimesis said:


> Well I have been in Jordan, and I've become more aquainted with how life (business) moves along tribelines, in terms of "preservation". I also spoke there with a guy from Canada, who had worked for 2 years in Quatar, and said the nepotism drove him mad, because the interest of the tribe was more important than the company, having to work with people who were not really qualified, but got the position or job, because he was a nephew or whatever. So, there is a much stronger identification with the family/tribe, than I am used to, and helping the tribe is much more seen as equal to helping yourself.
> 
> Lately I have spoken to nephews in a family gathering, some for the first time in my life and he was older than half a century. We were more like, damn we should do this more often, lol.
> 
> I noticed though that in the breakdown of 27 subtypes, there was some difference, for instance for withdrawn types like 4 and 5 Self was more personal, and (by head) type 1 and 7 also included relatives. But don't ask why.


OMG yes, happens a lot here as well, all the time. There is even a saying that, if you don't know anyone in your future profession, don't even bother getting into it. People get a shot at things because they're the relatives of someone important, not because they're actually good at what they do. I'd say that's much more social than self-pres.


----------



## mimesis

kaleidoscope said:


> I'd love to hear your thoughts on my instincts Sonny! Whenever ready :3
> 
> 
> 
> OMG yes, happens a lot here as well, all the time. There is even a saying that, if you don't know anyone in your future profession, don't even bother getting into it. People get a shot at things because they're the relatives of someone important, not because they're actually good at what they do. I'd say that's much more social than self-pres.


Yeah I realized I hadn't answered your question yet, what I thought.

Personally my Self is just "me", though I've been reflecting on that lately. How we think of Self is different than 100 years ago, and we've become more individualistic over time. Jung also writes about a "deindividuated" self, who is more tribalistic. But that's not the same as "social". It's more that "me" extends physical boundaries. It's like asking someone what do YOU want, and this person shrugs and says "I want what we want". 

The "Self" is a psychological construct. Or if you will, we have different "selfs", or layers of "self". (and many "others"). Although in itself this doesn't matter for the instinct. For instance, you can run a company with self preservation instinct, like think of it as me (like a nucleus family), including all needs, entitlements or obligations or responsibilities it owns as a company. Social instinct in that sense would be more between "me and the other". E.g. "our company" and the others, (other companies or the consumers), looking for strategic partners, etc.


----------



## hal0hal0

I have to go real soon, but I wanted to make one or two comments :happy:



kaleidoscope said:


> I don't really agree with the primary instinct being an area of comfort. Overindulgence, definitely. The root of the primary instinct is an insecurity, a compulsion, and a need. There isn't much comfort in that, at least, not the way I've understood it. The way I've seen it described, it's that the primary instinct is too hot, the secondary instinct is juust right, and the blind spot is the coldest, the one you pay least attention to.


Good point. I meant "comfort" more in that stubborn, borderline pathological sense (similar to how an alcoholic might find comfort [or the semblance thereof] by drowning themselves in booze), that the dominant instinct is often overidentified with.

To give an example, I often times simply refuse to come out of my shell because I believe/delude myself into thinking that it's what I need when really, it's overdoing it. To me, it _seems _like a good idea at the time and that I simply have to wait for myself to be ready and the world and everyone in it will have to wait, but often times, giving myself over to the other person/experience (Sx) or the group (Soc) is very often exactly what the doctor ordered, so to speak.



Sonny said:


> So first doesn't imply networking, it implies an innate understanding of the interconnections and social requirements of networking. As the preoccupation is fitting into social groups in whatever way the Enneagram type focuses on, it can include a pushing-back against social interaction due to the hyper-awareness of not 'fitting it'.
> 
> Not saying Kalei is So dom, I've not considered her that way in the past so it would take an adjustment to 'neutral' my view to consider it, just that what she has posted there does not preclude So dom at all, imo.


Great point. Thank you. Does the Soc instinct generally have a "big picture" perspective compared to the other instincts (particularly Sp?). I generally see the Soc instinct as having a much deeper understanding of the complexities and intricacies of social systems, their interconnections, as you said, as well as the dynamic evolution of them as well.

My understanding of the social realm often just feels shallow and basic. Like I've taken Social 101, but past the basic vocabulary, I don't "feel" that system if that makes sense.



mimesis said:


> Personally my Self is just "me", though I've been reflecting on that lately. How we think of Self is different than 100 years ago, and we've become more individualistic over time. Jung also writes about a "deindividuated" self, who is more tribalistic. But that's not the same as "social". It's more that "me" extends physical boundaries. It's like asking someone what do YOU want, and this person shrugs and says "I want what we want".


This is very interesting. Brief comment so it may be sloppy but more of a reminder for myself to get back to this.

Marshall McLuhan argued that the electronic age would introduce an "electric retribalization" of society, which I agree with (i.e., consider how the internet tends to produce factions, groups and subgroups via connections of common interest). Of course, whether McLuhan and Jung meant tribalization vs. individuation in exactly the same way is something to tease apart as well.

^and then, of course, connecting all that to enneagram.

McLuhanâ€™s Retribalization and the End of Individualism, Nationalism, and Privacy | Once Upon a Time, There Was a Story


----------



## Paradigm

kaleidoscope said:


> Well, I would have to say immediate family would be more SP than say, extended family and relatives. My explanation may be a bit clumsy cause I don't have a perfect grasp of the self-pres instinct so correct me if I'm wrong, but immediate family fulfills the need of building a home/nest, and contributes to the domesticity aspect of the Sp instinct. It's limited to a few individuals.
> 
> Extended family on the other hand, is on a larger scale and involves maintaining a network of relationships beyond the nuclear family. I know my parents maintain those bonds because they feel like this is where they belong, and it reinforces their social/cultural attribution. Who am I? I'm X's sister, Y's aunt, Z's godmother, etc..
> 
> What do you think?


I'd agree with this, mostly. I notice a lot of people identifying themselves as per their family: "I'm a wife and a mother," for example. There's rarely anything about _themselves _as a person. I'd say this is more of an SP/SO thing, to identify in that way. SP/SX has a much more insular streak to it, and while some would surely identify as a family member, I imagine they'd also personalize it a bit. 

But saying that, I imagine type influences that tendency, too. I'm thinking 2 and 9 SP/SX would probably blend in more than, say, 4 or 7.


----------



## kaleidoscope

mimesis said:


> Yeah I realized I hadn't answered your question yet, what I thought.
> 
> Personally my Self is just "me", though I've been reflecting on that lately. How we think of Self is different than 100 years ago, and we've become more individualistic over time. Jung also writes about a "deindividuated" self, who is more tribalistic. But that's not the same as "social". It's more that "me" extends physical boundaries. It's like asking someone what do YOU want, and this person shrugs and says "I want what we want".


Can you explain a bit more the difference between the tribalistic self and the social instinct? Because the way I've understood it, the social instinct _can _manifest itself in an identification with something greater than the self. 



> The "Self" is a psychological construct. Or if you will, we have different "selfs", or layers of "self". (and many "others"). Although in itself this doesn't matter for the instinct. For instance, you can run a company with self preservation instinct, like think of it as me (like a nucleus family), including all needs, entitlements or obligations or responsibilities it owns as a company. Social instinct in that sense would be more between "me and the other". E.g. "our company" and the others, (other companies or the consumers), looking for strategic partners, etc.


That makes sense but isn't the way you conceptualize the Self somehow representative of the dominant instinct? Or are you saying the two aren't related? 



hal0hal0 said:


> Good point. I meant "comfort" more in that stubborn, borderline pathological sense (similar to how an alcoholic might find comfort [or the semblance thereof] by drowning themselves in booze), that the dominant instinct is often overidentified with.


I think you used the word comfort to describe that because you're SP-dom  But yes, if that's what you mean by comfort, then absolutely. It can just be a bit misleading, so I prefer to describe it as compulsive, like a permanent itch you feel compelled to scratch.



> To give an example, I often times simply refuse to come out of my shell because I believe/delude myself into thinking that it's what I need when really, it's overdoing it. To me, it _seems _like a good idea at the time and that I simply have to wait for myself to be ready and the world and everyone in it will have to wait, but often times, giving myself over to the other person/experience (Sx) or the group (Soc) is very often exactly what the doctor ordered, so to speak.


I will try to think of how this applies to my experience of both the sexual and social instinct, might shed some light on my stackings. I think this explains very well the struggle in a dominant instinct though ^^

(This reminds me, I've never really seen you talk about your relationship with the Sx instinct. It seems somewhat easier for you to talk about how Sp or So manifest themselves in you?)


----------



## hal0hal0

kaleidoscope said:


> (This reminds me, I've never really seen you talk about your relationship with the Sx instinct. It seems somewhat easier for you to talk about how Sp or So manifest themselves in you?)


Good question. As I've said before, an Sp/So typing isn't outside the realm of possibility for me. I certainly would not mind hipster-typing at Sp/So, since Sx-last in general seems like the most underappreciated in these parts for obvious reasons!

Anyways, I generally see the last instinct as a source of insecurity and even shame (like, "I am retarded when it comes to So/Sx/Sp instinct"). I like your analogy of too hot, too cold and just right, but just one caveat: I think that in general, that analogy would work, however, I wouldn't say the second instinct is "just right" so much as _*neutral*_. So perhaps:



first instinct = I love it/Ally 
second instinct = I can take it or leave it/Neutral 
third instinct = I hate it/Enemy 
 
^That's still an oversimplification, but with the last instinct, I typically think of in terms of a kind of oversimplistic dismissal of that instinct's concerns as unimportant or a "waste of time." It's not so much that a Soc-last is unaware of those social underpinnings, but there's a "I don't want to deal with that!" towards whatever the last instinct may be. 

I'd say instinctual placement within the stack is more about energy investment, actually.

Moreover, instincts may not be "balanced" if that makes sense. What if their Sx and Soc instincts are weak because life experiences have fostered a very insular and isolated environment? There is little doubt in my mind that someone raised on a desert island all alone would be deficient in Soc-instinct, simply because there is no social system to be exposed to! Similarly, I suspect that social recluses and asocial people tend towards Sp-dom in general, because it's difficult to interconnect with others or the group if those things are _in absentia_. 

That's why I sometimes jokingly go with Sp/Sp because both the Soc and the Sx instincts can feel like chores or obligations that fracture my own concerns, like a tornado that comes in and destroys my little hermit hut.

That said, my experience with the Sx instinct relates heavily to things like really engaging conversations, learning new ideas, exploring or connecting with some brand new fictional universe, etc.. I think the second instinct can be a mixed bag... not a source of excessive indulgence like the dominant, nor adversarial avoidance, like the last, but more hit or miss (i.e., it can be really good, mediocre, or bad). I can have really engaging conversations, ideas, or "light-bulb" moments that I can get really obsessive over and I can actually come across as overbearing IRL when I simply cannot shut-up about some crazy new idea I get.

The Soc instinct, by comparison, I find myself having a more purely negative experience with. I can't "get into the zone" of the Soc instinct, so to speak. So I rarely, if ever, get excited about being a part of the machineteam. While I'm aware that Soc-doms are often rebellious and can have an antagonistic relationships towards The System, for me, it's more like... *I don't want to deal with any of that stuff, lol*! It's such a headache/complicated. I get the impression Soc-doms might actually be leaders in terms of rebellion towards a system, if it doesn't mesh with their own value system

^or maybe I'm just lazy?

To give an example: My dad is an ISTJ 6w5 So/Sx. I am about 80% sure of that typing and he's a good example because even though I am quite certain of that typing, he doesn't fit most of the stereotypes of those types... he's got virtually zero social life and he's more rebellious than I am, so I really think the SJ Soc-dom 6 as being an obedient doormat is a crock of horseshit, haha! He seems to emphasize the experiential and subjective sensing of Si, I see the flips of phobia/counterphobia, the fixations of fear and doubt, as well as the drive for certainty and finally, his Soc instinct I believe comes from a really deep understanding of social systems as well as the implications of the social "web" (i.e., the politics involved as well as the consequences... sort of like a chess player).

He recounts this one story in high school (I frankly think Si-doms make some of the best storytellers) of how he read Thoreau's Civil Disobedience and decided to park in the principal's parking space in the spirit of that essay... refusing to move the car because: Why should the principal get special treatment?

I remember reading somewhere that many Soc-doms find themselves in leadership roles, because so much attention is paid to the intricacies of social systems, and the roles within).


----------



## mimesis

hal0hal0 said:


> This is very interesting. Brief comment so it may be sloppy but more of a reminder for myself to get back to this.
> 
> Marshall McLuhan argued that the electronic age would introduce an "electric retribalization" of society, which I agree with (i.e., consider how the internet tends to produce factions, groups and subgroups via connections of common interest). Of course, whether McLuhan and Jung meant tribalization vs. individuation in exactly the same way is something to tease apart as well.
> 
> ^and then, of course, connecting all that to enneagram.
> 
> McLuhan’s Retribalization and the End of Individualism, Nationalism, and Privacy | Once Upon a Time, There Was a Story


That was an interesting link. Thanks.


----------



## mimesis

kaleidoscope said:


> Can you explain a bit more the difference between the tribalistic self and the social instinct? Because the way I've understood it, the social instinct _can _manifest itself in an identification with something greater than the self.


I'm still figuring out where to draw the line. Why draw the line with the nucleus family as belonging to Self, but not uncles and nephews? Isn't the nucleus family also greater than the self? It's also a bit patriarchal to draw the line there, (with the pater familias as head of the nuclear family, and basically held responsible (owning) for the safety and physical well being of his wife and children until emancipation or wedlock and all Sp concerns, entitlements and obligations are handed over), which I don't necessarily object to, but with defining instinct I also like to consider how humans have existed before 10k years ago. There is a theory that asserts ego-consciousness is only about 10k years old. So the instinctual 'Self' may be something that is greater than the ego. 

A mother (or father) may see her child as 'Self' in a way that goes even beyond 'identification' (and vice versa), or rational consideration (it's instinct after all). Although not necessarily, what is 'self' to one isn't necessarily felt as a part of self to others. I would say social is more the other way round, being part of a group or alliance. The position or value /significance you have within a group or feeling alienated. 

A rather extreme example, I would say Stockholm syndrome is more Sp than So instinct. 



kaleidoscope said:


> That makes sense but isn't the way you conceptualize the Self somehow representative of the dominant instinct? Or are you saying the two aren't related?


Hm..yeah I guess you might say that. But I didn't mean self-concept (how one views oneself) which is more of an 'ego' issue, but more where the boundaries of Self are (that need be preserved and protected).


----------



## kaleidoscope

@hal0hal0, I agree with everything you say, but this captured my attention:



> I'd say instinctual placement within the stack is more about energy investment, actually.


I'd say that's somewhat accurate, but with an Sp flavor to it. I don't really think of things as worth my energy or not, whereas that's definitely something an Sp-dom would be attuned to. This applies more for the blind spot actually, as something that you're reluctant to indulge in because you have trouble seeing its value, or because you feel like it takes too much effort/energy. 



> Moreover, instincts may not be "balanced" if that makes sense. What if their Sx and Soc instincts are weak because life experiences have fostered a very insular and isolated environment? There is little doubt in my mind that someone raised on a desert island all alone would be deficient in Soc-instinct, simply because there is no social system to be exposed to! Similarly, I suspect that social recluses and asocial people tend towards Sp-dom in general, because it's difficult to interconnect with others or the group if those things are _in absentia_.


Yeah, I agree and used to feel the same way about my own instincts hahaha. The strength of the instincts can be pretty disproportionate, with the primary instinct having the biggest strength and the others being weaker. Though I would say levels of health also tend to affect that. Maybe the healthier you are, the more likely you are to pay attention and recognize the value of other instincts. 

I'd say Sp/Sx is about right for you :3



> To give an example: My dad is an ISTJ 6w5 So/Sx. I am about 80% sure of that typing and he's a good example because even though I am quite certain of that typing, he doesn't fit most of the stereotypes of those types... he's got virtually zero social life and he's more rebellious than I am, so I really think the SJ Soc-dom 6 as being an obedient doormat is a crock of horseshit, haha! He seems to emphasize the experiential and subjective sensing of Si, I see the flips of phobia/counterphobia, the fixations of fear and doubt, as well as the drive for certainty and finally, his Soc instinct I believe comes from a really deep understanding of social systems as well as the implications of the social "web" (i.e., the politics involved as well as the consequences... sort of like a chess player).
> 
> He recounts this one story in high school (I frankly think Si-doms make some of the best storytellers) of how he read Thoreau's Civil Disobedience and decided to park in the principal's parking space in the spirit of that essay... refusing to move the car because: Why should the principal get special treatment?
> 
> I remember reading somewhere that many Soc-doms find themselves in leadership roles, because so much attention is paid to the intricacies of social systems, and the roles within).


Ha, this is so interesting! I think my father is some kind of IxTJ 6w5 Sp/So, and I can recognize a lot of him in what you describe. He's extremely SP, but he does have moments where he will launch himself into a tirade on humanity & our fate as human beings - which I find pretty amusing and sometimes downright shocking. Even though he's a doctor, he tends to think that medicine and science are actually going against the DNA's drive towards perfection. In his opinion, illness is a form of natural selection where the strongest genes prevail, and so by coming up with treatments to prolong life, we are actually going against nature.


* *




I was watching this amazing show True Detective, and one of the characters says something much more nihilistic, but that my father actually agreed with when I showed it to him:

_"I think human consciousness, is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware, nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself, we are creatures that should not exist by natural law. We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self; an accretion of sensory, experience and feeling, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody is nobody. Maybe the honorable thing for our species to do is deny our programming, stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction, one last midnight - brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.”
_


----------



## Paradigm

kaleidoscope said:


> Even though he's a doctor, he tends to think that medicine and science are actually going against the DNA's drive towards perfection. In his opinion, illness is a form of natural selection where the strongest genes prevail, and so by coming up with treatments to prolong life, we are actually going against nature.


As a person who is constantly under medical "treatment," this kinda scares me :sad: Sometimes I'm almost-anxious of how many people seem to be in support of (non-terminal) euthanasia and/or genetic selection, despite their silence of it.

Off-topic, though, I guess.


----------



## hal0hal0

@_kaleidoscope_ your dad sounds more Ni, at a glance. I used to have that same mentality when I was angrier and more hateful (not saying your dad is btw... I think he's more focused on the facts and science than making judgments per se). I think your dad has a point and what he says is certainly not untrue (I see him more as approaching it from a detached perspective of a clinician... very Te). Purely from the standpoint of genetics, medicine does perpetuate "flaws" in our gene pool. That is a fact, unless we want to throw out the concept of genetic inheritance entirely.

I think your dad is more just pointing out facts and observations (which are absolutely true, as heartless as they are) rather than advocating that we actually be perfect from the standpoint of genetics (i.e., "weeding out" the "bad" genes out of some misguided sense of racial superiority).

Because... life is not perfect. Last time someone tried purifying our race, how well did that go?


Paradigm said:


> As a person who is constantly under medical "treatment," this kinda scares me :sad: Sometimes I'm almost-anxious of how many people seem to be in support of (non-terminal) euthanasia and/or genetic selection, despite their silence of it.
> 
> Off-topic, though, I guess.


I agree it is scary. 

Natural selection has always been a terrifyingly elegant process, to me, because its premise is so simple (if it works, it works; if it doesn't, it doesn't), yet so terrifyingly heartless as well. If you've ever seen the documentary Grizzly Man about Timothy Treadwell, who lived for a time amongst grizzly bears (for quite some time, actually; it was pretty remarkable what he was able to do, and I admire him for that much at least), he eventually got mauled to death by one. The director, Werner Herzog comments that he did not see beauty or kindredship when he looked into a bear's eyes, but a cold indifference.

Nature is a totally different beast. Like how the Atlantic salmon give up their lives simply for the chance of mating and bearing offspring. From the standpoint of the individual, nature is very often times cruel, indifferent, and ruthless. But from the standpoint of the species, that's where the beauty lies, I suppose.

The thing is... humans have removed themselves from natural selection, thus, the rules for survival have shifted. DNA is not the be-all-end-all, anymore; we have supplemented our genetic imperfection with technology (glasses, clothes, houses, wheelchairs, canes, etc.... all these replace things like claws, fur, or heightened senses). Our family all around has poor vision and my dad sometimes comments that we would be at a grave disadvantage if we lived in cave man times... only we DON'T live in caveman times. I sometimes think the "all-natural" approach is fine, but dismissing modern medicine as "against nature" is just stupid, IMO (if you want to live "all natural" and reject all forms of modern creature comforts... fine, go live in a cave I guess, but no reason to spoil it for everyone else).

I think there's this demonization of medicine (and technology) at times, even though it has made many people's lives at least livable. Maybe not perfect, but damn, think of the insulin pump... people with T1DM can live much, _*much *_better lives.

There is a reason the Hippocratic oath is "do no harm" even though, in practicality, sure, treatment is never free from harm (i.e., chemotherapy, amputations for osteomyelitis, or even just... accidents... nosocomial infections *do* happen try as we might to prevent them). The point of that oath is for the HCP to not judge or play god, deciding who lives or dies. We are to do the best we can to help patients in terms of survival and quality of life. A health-care practitioner's role is, _*ideally*_, non-judgmental.

^And of course, that ain't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Ideals are like the carrot on the stick... we chase, chase and chase, but reality keeps them ever at arm's length (but that doesn't mean to we ought to dispense with the whole process, in spite of that imperfection). Medicine is filled with more controversy and unfairness in spite of those ideals... insurance, affordability, access, and even controversy surrounding the best way to treat a particular disease state @_Animal_ can attest to that.

I'm reminded of a quote from Stanley Kubrick, actually:
*“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent, but if we can come to terms with this indifference, then our existence as a species can have genuine meaning. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” *

I think that light is the goodwill of individual people. For instance, there's this surgeon who performs heart-valve surgery for children in Africa who suffer from a heart valve defect that comes from the simple Group A Streptococcus bacteria (i.e., Strep throat). The procedure is expensive and time-consuming, but that surgeon does what he can.

Some people criticize that his skills could be used more effectively elsewhere, but that's where I think the utilitarian mentality goes way too far. So what? He's doing what HE can and what he feels is important... if that is making just a handful of lives better, then at least he's doing something.

Can you imagine though? Those of us in 1st world countries are fortunate enough to receive a simple Penicillin VK for Strep throat that prevents an often times fatal heart valve defect. It's one of the simplest antibiotics in the world, preventing a fairly common infection, and it prevents something that is very often times, a death sentence.

Maybe it's not "natural" but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing.


----------



## kaleidoscope

hal0hal0 said:


> @_kaleidoscope_ your dad sounds more Ni, at a glance. I used to have that same mentality when I was angrier and more hateful (not saying your dad is btw... I think he's more focused on the facts and science than making judgments per se). I think your dad has a point and what he says is certainly not untrue (I see him more as approaching it from a detached perspective of a clinician... very Te). Purely from the standpoint of genetics, medicine does perpetuate "flaws" in our gene pool. That is a fact, unless we want to throw out the concept of genetic inheritance entirely.
> 
> I think your dad is more just pointing out facts and observations (which are absolutely true, as heartless as they are) rather than advocating that we actually be perfect from the standpoint of genetics (i.e., "weeding out" the "bad" genes out of some misguided sense of racial superiority).
> 
> Because... life is not perfect. Last time someone tried purifying our race, how well did that go?


Yeah, I used to think ISTJ but now I've been wondering lately if INTJ isn't more fitting. He's extremely detached and cerebral, his 5 wing is pretty heavy and he comes across like a typical 5w6 when you meet him. His 6 shows in how reactive he is, how much he doubts himself and others, his worse case scenario thinking and constant worrying. 

I can see his perspective if I just zoom out & look at things from a very removed, scientific perspective. But all of that stops making sense when you look at individual lives, real people struggling to live their life and who would give anything to spend a few more days with their loved ones. Nature _is _ruthless and cruel that way, but we humans have gone beyond the process of natural selection that used to dominate our species. The weaker traits don't just disappear on their own now, but the rules & conditions have also changed. 



> The thing is... humans have removed themselves from natural selection, thus, the rules for survival have shifted. DNA is not the be-all-end-all, anymore; we have supplemented our genetic imperfection with technology (glasses, clothes, houses, wheelchairs, canes, etc.... all these replace things like claws, fur, or heightened senses). Our family all around has poor vision and my dad sometimes comments that we would be at a grave disadvantage if we lived in cave man times... only we DON'T live in caveman times. I sometimes think the "all-natural" approach is fine, but dismissing modern medicine as "against nature" is just stupid, IMO (if you want to live "all natural" and reject all forms of modern creature comforts... fine, go live in a cave I guess, but no reason to spoil it for everyone else).


I agree with you, evolution isn't a bad thing at all. The fact that we have been able to get past this natural selection also works well with the fact that we don't live in caves anymore, in situations where survival was extremely crucial and required so much. Right now, the way we live is about luxury, comfort, _not _going out hunting for food. The requirements to stay alive are different. 



> “The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent, but if we can come to terms with this indifference, then our existence as a species can have genuine meaning. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.”


I absolutely love this quote, thank you for sharing ^^


----------



## mimesis

kaleidoscope said:


> @_hal0hal0_, I agree with everything you say, but this captured my attention:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that's somewhat accurate, but with an Sp flavor to it. I don't really think of things as worth my energy or not, whereas that's definitely something an Sp-dom would be attuned to. This applies more for the blind spot actually, as something that you're reluctant to indulge in because you have trouble seeing its value, or because you feel like it takes too much effort/energy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I agree and used to feel the same way about my own instincts hahaha. The strength of the instincts can be pretty disproportionate, with the primary instinct having the biggest strength and the others being weaker. Though I would say levels of health also tend to affect that. Maybe the healthier you are, the more likely you are to pay attention and recognize the value of other instincts.
> 
> I'd say Sp/Sx is about right for you :3
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, this is so interesting! I think my father is some kind of IxTJ 6w5 Sp/So, and I can recognize a lot of him in what you describe. He's extremely SP, but he does have moments where he will launch himself into a tirade on humanity & our fate as human beings - which I find pretty amusing and sometimes downright shocking. Even though he's a doctor, he tends to think that medicine and science are actually going against the DNA's drive towards perfection. In his opinion, illness is a form of natural selection where the strongest genes prevail, and so by coming up with treatments to prolong life, we are actually going against nature.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was watching this amazing show True Detective, and one of the characters says something much more nihilistic, but that my father actually agreed with when I showed it to him:
> 
> _"I think human consciousness, is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware, nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself, we are creatures that should not exist by natural law. We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self; an accretion of sensory, experience and feeling, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody is nobody. Maybe the honorable thing for our species to do is deny our programming, stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction, one last midnight - brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.”
> _


I think your father argued, seeing the human species as 'Self'.

Then again, don't you think we perform selection too when choosing a mating partner? Sx attraction may be rooted in Sp instinct. 



Physical Attractiveness said:


> Symmetrical faces and bodies may be signs of good inheritance to women of child-bearing age seeking to create healthy offspring. Studies suggest women are less attracted to men with asymmetrical faces, and symmetrical faces correlate with long term mental performance[SUP][[/SUP] and are an indication that a man has experienced "fewer genetic and environmental disturbances such as diseases, toxins, malnutrition or genetic mutations" while growing.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness


The human species, like other social animals preserved itself by living in a group. The So instinct makes sure we stick together as a group and can function, e.g. by establishing a pecking order as an alternative to infighting which would weaken ourselves as a group. But within the group we need to survive as well. We (instinctually) care (fear) about social value (status, significance, loved) because it correlates with higher chances of survival, quality of life, and reproductive success. 

Sp may regard the nucleus family as 'Self' to protect against being overwhelmed by 'the other (non-family)' and impoverishment of resources, but within that family there is a hierarchy and a zero-sum dynamic, where strategic alliances may be sought (So) to protect individual Self from being controlled, engulfed or deprived from entitlements to resources by 'the other' (siblings).

Not kidding here, I am no 6 of 7 children. Naranjo also mentions envy towards siblings in his Four description. So the nucleus family can be both 'Self' and 'group/other' depending on the instincts point of view /focus.


----------



## hal0hal0

@Animal as promised (if a month or two late), my rationale for why a type 1 case for you is possible. As I've said, I see you as either core 1 or core 4. I've talked with you before about how I don't really see a case for core 7, although I suppose that would be the third possibility after 1/4. I generally see more of a rationale for core 4, however I've already given my thoughts on that typing.

It took me a while to consider a possibility of core 1 for Animal, but as of late, I've been reassessing the 1 as a possibility (in part because it doesn't seem to come up as often in the rather entertaining debates and well, it's a fun thought experiment). There are pieces of the 1 that certainly fit quite well, and at the very least, Animal has some sort of connection to the 1 (which happens, ironically or not, to be the nexus of the ideal-seeker triad 147). It is interesting, too, that 4 and 7 seem to come up the most as far as what people type her as, considering both have a connection point to 1. Of course, there's got to be more than just connection points to consider a core.

So, where do I see aspects of the 1 in Animal? I think type 1 can be considered a very proud type and with gut-centered types in general, I get the impression of "this is where I stand." There is a solidarity (or some might say stubbornness) to a gut type that evokes thoughts of the immovable object. Type 1's pride differs from the passion of type 2, however, coming from the standpoint of conviction, whereas the 2's Pride comes from the standpoint of value and worth.

As I've said earlier in this thread, Animal latches onto whatever beliefs or convictions she has (in her own words: "I'm a latcher. I latch")—standing up for and defending her way of life as well as her personal integrity. This seems, in my mind, to fit quite strongly with the 1's general attitude of "I'm _*right*_!" Moreover, there is oftentimes that proud workhorse mentality that seems indicative of the competency triad, and there is a discipline and rigor to Animal's responsibilities (of course, those responsibilities could simply be the result of life experience and not so much a point of fixation... whether or not this is "complying to the superego" I cannot say).


----------



## Animal

@hal0hal0 great post . Excellent points. I need to go back through this thread and address all of the great points that were made!  I've been busy & distracted but it will happen one day.. hehe. But thanks for writing it. It makes a lot of sense. I also relate to every single word of this (keeping in mind that this is a short description and not a thorough representation of the fixation)

Sexual 1: Heat/ Jealousy
Sexual Ones have a vivacious, gushy, hyperanimated, and effusive style of behavior. This constant sense of being impassioned is a leaking of their sexual "heat" into their personality style. They are perpetually afraid that someone more perfect will come along and steal their partner, if they have one, and so are always on the alert for signs that their partner desires someone else. If they don't have a mate, they are convinced deep down that another, better person will be more desirable to their object of affection than they are. As Ichazo says, "Union with another is always threatened by someone more perfect."


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

*tiptoes in* 

So, I've actually considered a 2 typing every now and again for a while, but I never _quite_ settled on it. I figure I may as well ask about it now...:laughing:
If anyone would like me to explain _why_ I'm thinking 2, I'll be happy to do so, but for now I'll hold off. XD


----------



## Animal

Chained Divinity said:


> *tiptoes in*
> 
> So, I've actually considered a 2 typing every now and again for a while, but I never _quite_ settled on it. I figure I may as well ask about it now...:laughing:
> If anyone would like me to explain _why_ I'm thinking 2, I'll be happy to do so, but for now I'll hold off. XD


If you are up for explaining, I'd be curious.  Even though I'm barely here.. I'll read it eventually/ possibly respond before the end of the century. ;D


----------



## kaleidoscope

@hal0hal0 

Good points, but there are some things that make me hesitate when it comes to a core 1 typing for @Animal; the fix is very strong and obvious and I think we all agree on that. I just don't see a lot of rigidity, or focus on internal perfection. I guess the best way to say this is, she doesn't strike me as the type of person who would try to control the way they think/feel in order to fit a certain ideal. Maitri describes this mindset in 1s as almost a "tense watchfulness" - had to whip out the book to get it right, I'm out of practice :wink: 

Got to go for now, but I'll keep an eye on this discussion!


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Animal said:


> If you are up for explaining, I'd be curious.  Even though I'm barely here.. I'll read it eventually/ possibly respond before the end of the century. ;D



Alright! Though I'm already rethinking this as we speak, and returning to my usual thoughts of 6/4, here it is. :laughing:

--At the very least when I was younger, I took rejection _very_ personally (and would feel an intense, visceral anger about it). At first I thought it was just, you know, anger at lack of having, but I've begun to realize that I wrap up a lot of my own self-image in my (thus far only attempts at) relationships. 
--A lot of the ponderings of my early life involved personal needs and actions, and being trained to feel guilt for those needs and actions. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that I shouldn't feel guilty over all of them, as when I was an elementary-school aged kid I was (as I'd said in a questionnaire I think) an ass. But still, it's sort of reminiscent in the "idea" of 4 disintegration/becoming 2 in a few ways (although some of my quirks--hating having a body--could've been said to be security oriented I guess. Bodies can change and if they're part of me than _I_ can change, way more easily than if I had only mind). As I got older I sort of started to feel my own emotions slipping away from me, and I've very much known for some time now that there were three reasons for that--the one that appeared first being that I was starting to feel like I owed _people_ rather than the other way around. The second one was more traditionally 6ish--a lot of my early life goals involved war/violence in some way and it began to occur to me what the negative consequences of that on me might be, and then there were a few other things involving wondering whether morality even existed and whether my life goals were possible within that morality and my moral stances on things changing (which at the time terrified me--I equated it with dying)...but yeah. Guilt has been something I've viewed as a threat to my identity for some time, although fear has been as well. 

--I've gotten very worked up in the past (Though in the present I'm more able to just ignore this) about accusations that I'm doing something that is morally incorrect, too. I've actually always felt that was more a 4 thing (seeking to preserve my emotions, which form my identity). I've felt like, very recently actually, I've _had_ to justify my own actions to people a lot.


Aaaaaaand, that's it. :laughing:


----------



## Kintsugi

Type me, please. totally lost as to what the most suitable questionnaire to fill out is...?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Kintsugi said:


> Type me, please. totally lost as to what the most suitable questionnaire to fill out is...?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



This one seems good...

However, I will say for you that my gut feeling is that you would be an 8. Mostly because of how you answered in that one thread about Defending Others More Than Self.


----------



## Kintsugi

Chained Divinity said:


> This one seems good...
> 
> However, I will say for you that my gut feeling is that you would be an 8. Mostly because of how you answered in that one thread about Defending Others More Than Self.


Please elaborate?

I don't feel I am an 8. I know for sure I am an Se-dominant; I think often, that Se-dominates might appear stereotypically 8-ish.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Kintsugi said:


> Please elaborate?
> 
> I don't feel I am an 8. I know for sure I am an Se-dominant; I think often, that Se-dominates might appear stereotypically 8-ish.


I'm not saying it's nearly enough to type you with, but this statement: 



> I defend others more than myself, definitely. Ever since I was a kid I've been driven to stick up for the underdog. I was the little 4 year old kid in the playground who stood up to the group of older kids who were kicking the shit out of the school punchbag. More than anything, I can't stand bullying, in any shape or form. When I see that happening, I can't stop myself from speaking up and intervening. I've got myself into a lot of trouble for that over the years.


Called to mind something @Naqsh had said about Eights earlier...



> _Also, seeing the world in terms of strictly good/evil, right/wrong and corrupt/pure etc. is more One rather than Eight. Eights view the world as a dog-eat-dog conflictual place. Misusing power to hurt the 8 or those they care for and/or view as innocent would result in feelings of vengeance (working to even the score on behalf of the abused, as an example). We ran into a bit of a problem on your thread where you took my words that 8s weren't fixated on right vs. wrong as implying that they simply had no sense of right or wrong. All adult humans, including the most rugged individualists among 8s, still have an understanding of right and wrong. Is it as deeply entrenched in their belief system as that of a One? No. Are they resentful about the morally corrupt behaviour of others, as in is it a running theme in their life? No. Are 8s able to feel intense anger/rage at what may be considered immoral/harmful behaviour? Yes. Are they inherently reformist and in tune with correcting immoral (unethical/wrong/irrationally or illogically flawed value-based) behaviours? No. They tend not to view things in moralistic terms or evaluating situations against their personal moral/ethical standards (which is Type 1), but they are just capable of acting against perceived injustice because they have their own sense of integrity (not strictly moral propriety). If they see someone (they consider) innocent being taken advantage of, an 8 might be very quick to respond._


----------



## Kintsugi

Chained Divinity said:


> I'm not saying it's nearly enough to type you with, but this statement:
> 
> 
> 
> Called to mind something @_Naqsh_ had said about Eights earlier...
> 
> 
> 
> ​​




Could the same passage not be used to justify a CP type 6 typing though?​


----------



## Arya

Chained Divinity said:


> Hrm. At least some of that is personal/petty stuff, I admit. Aspects of typing at 6 (and possibly P6, although I have some CP and even Prussian traits, so...) don't always sit comfortably with me. I think some of that may be the culture surrounding Sixes, but...
> 
> _However_, I've always found the range of things that can be considered 6 traits to be a bit broad--descriptions and discussions of the type have them relying on external authority, actively going against external authority, not caring at all about following external authority and just trying to make themselves valuable to people...aggressiveness, submissiveness, neither...I've seen thus far two unifying traits of Sixes--not being as withdrawn as 5 (maybe--5 has a connection to 7), and having assessed risks at some point in their lives. Both are applicable to many types, and the second to _every_ type. It's in fact incredibly likely that I'm missing something here, that there's some other thing to tie them in, and maybe "looking for security" is enough, but...something does seem _off_.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I know you hardly at all. XD The questionnaire would alleviate that.


I'm a six and I think that this is the best explanation I've found online that goes into type six contradictions and why they're like that. But do keep in mind that although I find this fits me very well personally and really explains me, it is comes across more subtle when you actually see it in action: 

Sixes are among the most puzzling of the nine personality types because they are reactive, fluctuating from one state to another—usually the virtual opposite—very quickly. Sixes can be baffling and frustrating because their emotional states and attitudes can be so contradictory: they can be engaging and funny, then cranky and negative; they can be decisive and self-assertive, then, almost in the next moment, indecisive and self-doubting. While they seek the approval of those who are important to them, they resist being in a position of inferiority. They may be obedient, and then openly disobedient, intentionally deviating from what the authority has told them to do. As a result, because Sixes are the most contradictory of the personality types, they are one of the most difficult to understand. They often remain so enigmatic, even to those closest to them, that the most others can say about them is that they are "easy to like but hard to get to know." 
The key to understanding Sixes is that they are ambivalent: the two distinct sides of their personalities oscillate between aggressive and dependent tendencies. They feel both strong and weak, dependent and independent, passive and aggressive. As with Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, it is difficult to predict the state Sixes will be in from moment to moment. At each Level, they display a personality substantially different from what has gone before and what will follow. 
To make matters more complicated, Sixes are not only ambivalent toward others, they are ambivalent toward themselves. They like themselves, and then disparage themselves, feeling inferior to others. They have confidence and then feel hopeless and defeated, as if they could not do anything without help from someone else. They feel weak-kneed and cowardly, then suddenly fill with rage and strike out at others. A double set of dependent and aggressive impulses operates in them, continuously interacting in various complex combinations because Sixes react ambivalently not only to the external authority, but to the internal authority, their superego. 
As much as possible, Sixes want to avoid being in this anxious, ambivalent state, so they work hard to build structures into their lives to give them stability and continuity. As long as they know what the "rules of the game" are, and have some sense that they are supported by others in their lives, they can be a consistent, steady presence and accomplish a great deal. But herein lies the problem. Sixes make their internal stability dependent on the stability of their external environment: in other words, as long as everything in their lives is running reasonably well, they feel secure and able to cope with things. As soon as problems or areas of uncertainty arise, however, they are quickly thrown into a storm of confusion and emotional reactions. (For this reason, many Sixes mistake themselves for Fours.) Their self-doubt and suspiciousness arise and Sixes are right back into their ambivalence and unsteadiness.
The result then, is that Sixes can oscillate rapidly from one emotional state to another. As they shift first one way, then another, there seems to them to be little emotional stability or interpersonal security they can call their own. This is why it is so apt to identify Sixes as the personality type which has "the most trouble with doing"—not only because they look outside of themselves for direction, but because the actions they then take for themselves can be indecisive and circuitous.
It is impossible to understand Sixes without understanding their oscillating nature. Maintaining their sense of self requires that _both_ sides of their psyches interact with each other. Sixes cannot emphasize one side of themselves and ignore the other—for instance, they cannot become independent by suppressing their dependent side. For better or worse, they are an amalgam of both sides of themselves. When they are healthy, both sides work hand in hand with each other. However, if tension between their two sides increases, so does anxiety, and therein lies the source of many of their problems."

"

As we have just seen, it is difficult to describe this personality type in simple terms because its psyche continually changes. It may be helpful to think of Sixes as "ambiverts," a mixture of extroverted and introverted feelings. This is why they react to whatever they have done, especially if anxiety has been aroused, by doing the opposite to compensate. They then react to this new state, and then to the next, ad infinitum. For example, they may be affectionate toward someone; then, fearing that they will be taken advantage of or abandoned, they become suspicious of the very person who has just been the object of their warmth. But, becoming anxious about their suspicions, they seek reassurance that the relationship is still all right. As soon as they receive reassurance from the other, Sixes wonder if they have not been too ingratiating, so they overcompensate by becoming defensive, acting as if they did not need the other person. And on it goes. If you have difficulty understanding someone who is a mass of contradictions, you are probably dealing with a Six. 
It is also important to understand that while Sixes are emotional, they do not show their emotions directly—as Twos do, for example—even to those they are closest to. Similarly, Sixes are seldom sentimental, preferring to take a less "rose-colored" view of people and the world. Most healthy to average Sixes are, however, fairly clear about what they feel about things. They know who they love and who they dislike. They are uncertain about what they _think_ about things, and they are especially uncertain when it comes to deciding what to _do_ about their feelings. Because of this uncertainty, they become afraid of taking the wrong action or sending the wrong signal. Their minds turn round and around with conflicting thoughts about what they should be doing while they simultaneously try to figure out what the others in their lives are _really_ up to. Consequently, ambivalence toward both themselves and others causes them to give mixed signals. Or, to put this another way, Sixes react to their feelings—particularly anxiety—and communicate their reactions rather than their feelings. Except when Sixes are very healthy, others can rarely be certain of what is really on their minds. 
This is why achieving independence and emotional stability, especially freedom from anxiety, is so important to them. If they are too compliant, their self-esteem suffers: they feel inferior to others, like someone who can be pushed around. On the other hand, if they are too aggressive in their search for independence, they fear that they will alienate the very people who provide them with security and will be punished in some terrible way. The challenge Sixes face is to find a way of maintaining both sides of their personalities, gradually reducing the tensions between their conflicting sides until they form a reciprocal unit—themselves as healthy persons."

and here's the link I pulled those chunks out of if you wish to read the entire thing: 6—Enneagram Type Six: The Loyalist—Overview It's Riso and Hudson and I know a lot of people dislike R&H, but that's my personal favorite reference to explaining type six.


----------



## 7rr7s

@Swordsman of Mana A couple of things:

1. Explain the case for 8 as a core typing. I could see it as a possible gut fix, but not core. Loll I can now add that to the long speculative list of my core type though at least. XD. 5w4 > 3w4 > 7w8 > 4w3 > 2w3 > 6w7 > 8w7. 

2. Do you think 6 could work as a core typing?


----------



## Golden Rose

Just wanted to thank @Swordsman of Mana and @Reluctanine for helping me realize that sx 7s often mistype as core 4s!!! Though I have loooots of 4 in me :3333

Does anyone who knows me agree with my current typing? INFP or ENFP? I'm a NFP 749, right? ;D
I know this topic just sparked a lot of misunderstandings but I can't help myself ooops


----------



## Reluctanine

Hey @Hotaru!

Sorry I don't feel comfortable typing you yet. My Enneagram knowledge in types outside my own is not too deep yet. Give me a month or two. I'm currently reading a book from the library by Helen Palmer and another one by Riso and Hudson. Have you read any Enneagram books yet?

Basically, I know myself well, so I can type myself quite easily. But I don't know others well and I don't know Enneagram as well as I can, so I can't type other people yet.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

KindOfBlue06 said:


> @Swordsman of Mana A couple of things:
> 1. Explain the case for 8 as a core typing. I could see it as a possible gut fix, but not core. Loll I can now add that to the long speculative list of my core type though at least. XD. 5w4 > 3w4 > 7w8 > 4w3 > 2w3 > 6w7 > 8w7.
> 2. Do you think 6 could work as a core typing?


actually, I am seeing Sexual 6 now that I think about it more. you are confident, but you have anxiety/self worth issues which I haven't seen in Sexual 8. also, despite being clearly Sx dom, you look more like _Social_ 3 than Sexual 3, which is common in Sexual 6 (there is now way you are a Sexual 3. they're much more 9-ish) and you seem a lot more proactive than Sexual 4.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> there is now way you are a Sexual 3. they're much more 9-ish


Do they _have _​to be?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Kink said:


> Do they _have _​to be?


yes


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> yes


Well, I doubt it. :tongue: From what I understand, the idea is that with type 3s being image+attachment, they're good at adapting their image to the environment. So unless the environment says that a guy _must _be like 9ish to be attractive, there's no reason a sexual 3 can't be otherwise...

(Wow, that sounded better in my head. Ah well, I'll be good at words one day. Maybe.)


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> Hey @Hotaru!
> 
> Sorry I don't feel comfortable typing you yet. My Enneagram knowledge in types outside my own is not too deep yet. Give me a month or two. I'm currently reading a book from the library by Helen Palmer and another one by Riso and Hudson. Have you read any Enneagram books yet?
> 
> Basically, I know myself well, so I can type myself quite easily. But I don't know others well and I don't know Enneagram as well as I can, so I can't type other people yet.


I did!!! I'm trying to read them all so far I only went through excerpts of the books (mostly Riso&Hudson, Palmer and Naranjo but I'm gonna read moooore) and no problem~~I forget that people aren't into typing other people like I am, I mean I love this kind of thrill x3 I usually end up asking everyone and ending up doing whatever I feel like doin' (which some people mistook for approval seeking lol not even close) but at the same time I feel so unfulfilled because I want someone to break down this shit with me and they're all like "I don't know mbti/the enneagram/you/myself well enough" or even "I have already given you an answer!" "But I posted more!!! " "Errrr... I have to go do something for the next 400 hours" which is perfectly fine since i know that i'm annoying as hell but I still feel like making a thread or at least looking for answers somewhere because I really love exploring possibilities :blushed:

Anyway thank you Nine ♥♥♥


----------



## Reluctanine

I felt the excerpts I read online were too scattered and unstructured. I want a broad picture overview so I can see the patterns between the types and within the types better, and their differentiation. I like typing people, but only when I feel confident enough and have delved deep with them. I feel irresponsible if I give a vaguely right assessment if my own knowledge isn’t as grounded or backed up with more case studies. I don’t feel good leading people down a wrong path with something that affects self-development as seriously as this. I only like to talk with others once I’m about sure of something and then patch up the holes in my knowledge that we discover through conversation.

I’ve always felt that if you want something, you have to go get it yourself. Especially when it comes to knowledge, education and information. It’s not that you’re annoying, it’s just that everyone has different priorities in life, so we all do the things we like, at our own pace and in our own time.

I don’t think making a thread and looking outside for answers will help you in this case, especially if that’s what you’ve been doing all along. Why not try a different method?


----------



## 7rr7s

Swordsman of Mana said:


> actually, I am seeing Sexual 6 now that I think about it more. you are confident, but you have anxiety/self worth issues which I haven't seen in Sexual 8. also, despite being clearly Sx dom, you look more like _Social_ 3 than Sexual 3, which is common in Sexual 6 (there is now way you are a Sexual 3. they're much more 9-ish) and you seem a lot more proactive than Sexual 4.


phobic or counter phobic? Also, @Animal I'd like to get your thoughts on this as well.


----------



## Paradigm

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you look more like _Social_ 3 than Sexual 3, which is common in Sexual 6 (there is now way you are a Sexual 3. they're much more 9-ish)


Am I the only one who thinks @_KindOfBlue06_ could easily have a 9w8 fix? Especially when his tritype could be 3w4-7w8-9w8? (Even if he has a 6 core/fix, 6 SX is often 8ish anyway.)

In all the interactions I've had with him, he's been much more "adaptable" than I've experienced 8s to be, much more ready to view the other side of an argument. I get the feeling he fits more of the "inner peace" ideal of 9 than the "inner innocence" ideal of 8. 
Of course, please correct me if I'm wrong, Kob


----------



## Golden Rose

Just in case anyone wants to help~ My type me thread

It's a massive wall of Ne but I hope some brave soul will break the ice :kitteh: SMASH IT SON~~!



Reluctanine said:


> I don’t think making a thread and looking outside for answers will help you in this case, especially if that’s what you’ve been doing all along. Why not try a different method?


Because I know that introspection always leads me to escapism and jumping ships all of the time!
I know who I am, i just don't know how to apply it to my MBTI/enneatype and my knowledge is very wacky and subjective so I'm just toying around with the idea! It's color coded and pretty and i'm ready to take some hits.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Paradigm said:


> Am I the only one who thinks @_KindOfBlue06_ could easily have a 9w8 fix? Especially when his tritype could be 3w4-7w8-9w8? (Even if he has a 6 core/fix, 6 SX is often 8ish anyway.)


yes you are. he is all DRIVE and POWER seeking and has no problem jumping into a confrontation



> In all the interactions I've had with him, he's been much more "adaptable" than I've experienced 8s to be, much more ready to view the other side of an argument. I get the feeling he fits more of the "inner peace" ideal of 9 than the "inner innocence" ideal of 8.
> Of course, please correct me if I'm wrong, Kob


I've noticed the adaptable part, but not the "inner peace" part (I see none of that in him whatsoever)


----------



## daleks_exterminate

I'm interested and confused by enneagram types. When I first took the test I was a 5w6, but the motivations/ fears didn't fit. I value knowledge so I think that's what landed me there. It's not the most important thing to me though. Strategic planning/thinking is very important to me as well as having fun. I don't think I'm a 1,2 or probably 9 (though 9 is possible) even in a tritype. If ennegram were about an evolutionary way of survival, I find that people often want to be the exception to rules and I promise I do not mean this arrogantly, but I often am the exception. People often tell me they hate people, but like me. I'm kinda strange & off beat (but it works for me). I have no idea if that's type related, or just a personal quirk... I like myself & don't really care what box I fit into, but I'm just curious enough to want to know. If I want something I'm really competitive and almost ruthless which is why 9 doesn't seem to fit. I pick fights too much when I'm bored to be a 9. But when I do care about people, I really care with my entire being & don't let them go. 

So, weird quirks or type related? I have no idea. :kitteh:

Is there like a list of questions or a better test that could help me figure it out?

*edit*: if I'm putting this out here to be analyzed my biggest vices are probably lust, greed, envy/jealousy/possessiveness. 

Does anyone have thoughts on this?


----------



## Animal

KindOfBlue06 said:


> phobic or counter phobic? Also, @_Animal_ I'd like to get your thoughts on this as well.


Can you describe how you deal with something when it affects you emotionally, shakes you to the core in a way that is difficult, uncomfortable, or makes you feel vulnerable? Basically, hits you at the chest?

How do you deal with it externally? How do you deal with it internally?


----------



## Paradigm

Swordsman of Mana said:


> yes you are. he is all DRIVE and POWER seeking and has no problem jumping into a confrontation


How could that not be the 3ish DRIVE and RECOGNITION seeking? I don't see him as _power_-seeking at all, though I agree he's plenty id-like.



> I've noticed the adaptable part, but not the "inner peace" part (I see none of that in him whatsoever)


Eh this part depends on how @KindOfBlue06 feels, not how we perceive him. If he is 379 he wouldn't be showing off his 9 side too often, he'd be showing off his id side -- especially when you consider SX-first.


----------



## Adena

I keep on doubting everything of my personality. I use Te/Fi but everything else is just... meh. I'm also not sure anymore if I'm 3w2. It's frustrating.


----------



## Reluctanine

Hotaru said:


> Because I know that introspection always leads me to escapism and jumping ships all of the time!
> I know who I am, i just don't know how to apply it to my MBTI/enneatype and my knowledge is very wacky and subjective so I'm just toying around with the idea! It's color coded and pretty and i'm ready to take some hits.


Then don't run away. It's painful, but staying the same is even more painful.

1) How have you gathered your knowledge so far? What have you done?

2) What types have you typed as so far? 

3) What did you feel and think when you first thought you were that type?

4) What made you change your mind?

5) How did you feel and what did you think after you decided on a new type?

6) If a person came to you and asked you for help in trying to type them, what new methods would you suggest to them? Why?

I don't need colour coded or pretty. I want you to take your time in thinking over the questions and answering them. It just feels like I'm talking to a waterfall sometimes, you know? The water keeps changing and moving and sure it's pretty, but I can't tell what's behind the curtain of water.  I want to get to know the real you. I can't type you, but maybe I can help you type yourself.


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> It just feels like I'm talking to a waterfall sometimes, you know?  The water keeps changing and moving and sure it's pretty, but I can't tell what's behind the curtain of water. I want to get to know the real you. I can't type you, but maybe I can help you type yourself.


Ouch!!! Being called fake is probably the most hurtful thing I could think of ((
I'd rather if we did this in the thread so we could move it along a little but you don't have to.


----------



## Reluctanine

Hotaru said:


> Ouch!!! Being called fake is probably the most hurtful thing I could think of ((
> I'd rather if we did this in the thread so we could move it along a little but you don't have to.


I wasn't calling you fake! :O I think you've just thrown up a lot of blocks around yourself to protect yourself or something. I don't know. That's the impression I get. Walls that we put up to protect ourselves are still extensions of ourselves. 

I rather we did this here because this thread is about mistyping and I think it'll be interesting to see why you keep changing types so far.


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> I wasn't calling you fake! :O I think you've just thrown up a lot of blocks around yourself to protect yourself or something. I don't know. That's the impression I get. Walls that we put up to protect ourselves are still extensions of ourselves.
> 
> I rather we did this here because this thread is about mistyping and I think it'll be interesting to see why you keep changing types so far.


The thing is I'm not! I explained a thousand times why the facade but now that I'm keepin' it real and letting myself shine I just end up going back to my misunderstood status haha x) we talk a lot and I know that my shuffling types can be perceived as fake or confusing but it's not something I do on purpose!!! If you talked to me on skype or other threads, you'd see how natural and relaxed I'm actually being now that I let my personality come in like a wrecking ball~♬

The truth is that I know very little about the enneagram! I love exploring possibilities, I love change and I have a hard time taking many things seriously! But I want to improve as a person too?? This is why I'm sort of pushing people to read my thread! I've posted my answers, I was completely real and just poured out whatever chaos my mind was incubating... if y'all want to help me, that's a good way! If you see this as escapism or hiding, you might be right but I don't think so!!! Because i've made an effort to dig inside and type all of that so doubting my honesty is a little bit... yeah! But I'm still thankful for your help ^^ ♥


----------



## Reluctanine

If you love change, then you have to take it seriously, because internal improvement is a painful process. I think this might be why you're having difficulty settling on a type. I'm not doubting your honesty, I just feel like you have your own blocks that you might be unaware of. This could be your true self, but if that's the case, why do you keep doubting your type?



> Ouch!!! Being called fake is probably the most hurtful thing I could think of ((


Also, I think this line is most telling of your true type and self. Can you tell me why you feel hurt?


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> If you love change, then you have to take it seriously, because internal improvement is a painful process. I think this might be why you're having difficulty settling on a type. I'm not doubting your honesty, I just feel like you have your own blocks that you might be unaware of. This could be your true self, but if that's the case, why do you keep doubting your type?


I'm not really doubting my type, though??? Some saw it as doubt, others misread it as approval seeking and it's neither of those things! If you've noticed most of my typings revolve around a combination of 4, 7 and 9 and my MBTI is xNFP. I have an idea but sometimes the process behind my changes is some kind of discussion and soul searching y'all are not aware of!!! I'd really love if someone read my thread because I put lots of effort in it but it won't affect me if no one does :333



> Also, I think this line is most telling of your true type and self. Can you tell me why you feel hurt?


Because I've always been misunderstood through all of my life??? well not all of it but I end up being the confusing one, the one who always changes her mind and breezes through life like some kind of dopey butterfly... the bubbly attitude doesn't help my case much and my optimism comes across as annoying. Why do you think I envied NTs and TJs so much??? Because I always come across as airy and dumb or my feelings seem fake because of how quickly&&randomly they evolve! The truth is that I feel other people's feelings hardcore, I don't relate, it's hard for me to but like... when I feel for someone I do it to such an intense degree that it burns out quickly. I always look at the bright side but it doesn't mean that I cannot be serious about things!!! So... hearing about this makes me feel kinda bad with myself? Because i want to be seen for who I am, I'm jumping around while dropping pieces of me in everyone's pockets and being as true to myself as I can and yet it seems like it doesn't even work (( I try my best to care for and motivate the people in my life, even though i'm super individualistic so it's like.. can I have the favor returned? Can you see me? I'm sparkling~! I'm being myself, the label might change but not the contents of the box!!!


----------



## Reluctanine

Hotaru said:


> Because i want to be seen for who I am


Why is this important to you? What's your earliest memory of feeling this way?


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> Why is this important to you? What's your earliest memory of feeling this way?


I honestly can't remember! I could make up a mix of childhood memories but that's not how it works~!
It's important because I'm a person with dreams and feelings and depth and ideas and I don't like being restrained or reduced to a stereotype, I don't like having to act in a certain way to make people like me or because "I have to". Ideally I wish I could be free and spontaneous and happy and loved for who I am... I wouldn't have the need to explain myself because what I have on the inside just shines through my way of being. I don't care much for approval but I don't like to be limited in my choices or considered a fake, someone i'm not!


----------



## Reluctanine

When was the first time someone called you fake and how did you react?


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> When was the first time someone called you fake and how did you react?


I can't remember!! I appreciate the effort but I'd rather have a more naturally flowing conversation.
If you don't really give me anything to work with this is going to be pointless again :3


----------



## with water

Putting myself under scrutiny.


----------



## Reluctanine

Hotaru said:


> I can't remember!! I appreciate the effort but I'd rather have a more naturally flowing conversation.
> If you don't really give me anything to work with this is going to be pointless again :3


I agree. These are some of the questions I ask myself to find out my true type. Like I said, I can't type you. Everyone else might be able to get a vague inkling, but only you can type yourself truly because you know yourself best. If you want to type yourself, you have to dig deep and try to remember. If you really want to find out your true type, stay quiet in a place and turn over my questions in your mind. I can't help you more than this.

Best wishes.


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> I agree. These are some of the questions I ask myself to find out my true type. Like I said, I can't type you. Everyone else might be able to get a vague inkling, but only you can type yourself truly because you know yourself best. If you want to type yourself, you have to dig deep and try to remember. If you really want to find out your true type, stay quiet in a place and turn over my questions in your mind. I can't help you more than this.
> 
> Best wishes.


Thank you! ♥♥♥

This was fun and all but since you've told me that some answers might be indicative of my true type, I thought you had something in mind. I can understand not wanting the pressure on you because I don't frolic around slapping labels on people either but since this is a criticism thread, I expected at least a teeny tiny opinion :3 don't worry I'm not going to take it as solid gold but it could be something to munch on!


----------



## Reluctanine

Maybe in a month or two.  Like I said, I'm not comfortable spouting things from my mouth I don't at least have some vague depth about. And if you reaaaaalllly wanna help me, think on my questions more until you can remember!


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> Maybe in a month or two.  Like I said, I'm not comfortable spouting things from my mouth I don't at least have some vague depth about. And if you reaaaaalllly wanna help me, think on my questions more until you can remember!


I still can't understand why you're refusing to read my thread but lol ok.
In a month or two I won't probably need this anymore ;3


----------



## 7rr7s

Paradigm said:


> Am I the only one who thinks @_KindOfBlue06_ could easily have a 9w8 fix? Especially when his tritype could be 3w4-7w8-9w8? (Even if he has a 6 core/fix, 6 SX is often 8ish anyway.)
> 
> In all the interactions I've had with him, he's been much more "adaptable" than I've experienced 8s to be, much more ready to view the other side of an argument. I get the feeling he fits more of the "inner peace" ideal of 9 than the "inner innocence" ideal of 8.
> Of course, please correct me if I'm wrong, Kob


I wouldn't rule it out. The only one I would rule out for sure is a 1 gut fix. XD. I think the agreeableness is probably more of a 3 thing though. You have an uphill battle when you start shit with people right from the get go. Then again, maybe I don't understand 9 vs 8 as my gut fix is the most hard to pin down for me. I never knew what it meant by "being in your body" until @Swordsman of Mana explained it to me and how I experience anger and rage. It's a visceral feeling but I never thought about it in that sense. Once he mentioned it though and explained it better, I could see it in myself because anger is a very visceral feeling for me.


----------



## Reluctanine

Hotaru said:


> I still can't understand why you're refusing to read my thread but lol ok.
> In a month or two I won't probably need this anymore ;3


I've read it. I'm choosing not to reply there because that's been crafted for the world to see with all the pretty colours. I was pushing you to see how you would react under pressure and if there were any blocks inside you.

I hope you don't need this. That means you'll be settled on your type which means you can grow your self.


----------



## Golden Rose

Reluctanine said:


> I've read it. I'm choosing not to reply there because that's been crafted for the world to see with all the pretty colours. I was pushing you to see how you would react under pressure and if there were any blocks inside you.
> 
> I hope you don't need this. That means you'll be settled on your type which means you can grow your self.


Pretty colors are a part of me!
As you can see I don't really snap under pressure and I'm quite the over sharer lol~
I do too! Because i'd love to improve myself and this kind of thing can give me a nice push!!!


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Paradigm said:


> How could that not be the 3ish DRIVE and RECOGNITION seeking? I don't see him as _power_-seeking at all, though I agree he's plenty id-like.


3s with a 9 fix is more relaxed, inconspicuous and not as obviously ambitious. they are not fiery and full of personality and spunk like @KindOfBlue06




> Eh this part depends on how @KindOfBlue06 feels, not how we perceive him. If he is 379 he wouldn't be showing off his 9 side too often, he'd be showing off his id side -- especially when you consider SX-first.


Sexual 3 is _less_ Id and _less_ aggressive than Social 3, not the other way around

from Beatrice Chestnut's Book:


> The Sexual 3 is sweet and shy and not as extroverted as the Social Three--especially when it comes to talking about himself. It's hard for these 3s to promote themselves, so they often put the focus on others they want to support.


...this does not sound like KoB at all


----------



## 7rr7s

Animal said:


> Can you describe how you deal with something when it affects you emotionally, shakes you to the core in a way that is difficult, uncomfortable, or makes you feel vulnerable? Basically, hits you at the chest?
> 
> How do you deal with it externally? How do you deal with it internally?


I either shut off my emotions, block them out and deal with whatever it is, but then later on, after shit has gone down, it all kind of hits me. I'd rather be emotional and deal with pain in silence or alone though vs. having people hugging me or something. Sometimes it hits me harder because I ignore emotions and then all of a sudden it hits me. 

When it comes to something unexpected, something that I am very emotionally tied into, if something unexpected happens I feel it very intensely. I can;t think straight, and I feel like physically sick. My mind races and I can get panic attacks. I'm anxious and on edge and I usually take a sleeping pill, tranquilizer or have a drink to calm me down or knock me out because once I sleep I'm usually fine. But in that moment it's pretty visceral and terrifying. 

If it;s anger, I'm more aggressive. I'll punch walls or bust out pushups. I have to do something physical because the rage is so intense and seething. It's almost like my body is preparing itself for a fight. Peripherals go out of focus, I feel that energy rising through me, I don't pay attention to logical talk and I'm focusing on destroying whatever it is and taking on as minimal damage as possible. Now, obviously you can;t go around making every motherfucker bite the curb, but that's how my body reacts to it. I'm running on pure adrenaline at that point.


----------



## 7rr7s

Paradigm said:


> How could that not be the 3ish DRIVE and RECOGNITION seeking? I don't see him as _power_-seeking at all, though I agree he's plenty id-like.
> 
> 
> Eh this part depends on how @_KindOfBlue06_ feels, not how we perceive him. If he is 379 he wouldn't be showing off his 9 side too often, he'd be showing off his id side -- especially when you consider SX-first.


Recognition is not enough. Neither is power. I've been around people who had plenty of power and no recognition and vice versa. What good is that? Just having one is not enough. But recognition and power is a deadly combination. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> *3s with a 9 fix is more relaxed, inconspicuous and not as obviously ambitious.* they are not fiery and full of personality and spunk like @_KindOfBlue06_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sexual 3 is _less_ Id and _less_ aggressive than Social 3, not the other way around
> 
> from Beatrice Chestnut's Book:
> 
> 
> ...this does not sound like KoB at all


I'm actually not that overtly ambitious. Or at least it seems that way since my focus is on music, writing and things that most people consider hobbies or something. I think there's a tendency to think that in order to be ambitious you have to be at the office 24/7 and drowning in paperwork or be up at 5AM to start training for the championship. And you do, if you're a CEO or a professional athlete. And I am like that, it's just not obvious to people. I have a very hard time relaxing because 24/7 my mind is thinking of music, writing, art, ect. I'm up at 5AM, not sweating through a workout, but visualizing and planning success. I don't have piles of paperwork because it's all in my head and it's constant. That's the price of greatness. It's not a weekend vacation. Even if to most people it looks like I'm having a good time, like grabbing drinks or dinner or something, I'm still thinking of stories, songs, what I need to do, how I can innovate, how I can be better ect. In that sense I think it can appear very relaxed, inconspicuous and not overtly ambitious.


----------



## Animal

KindOfBlue06 said:


> I either shut off my emotions, block them out and deal with whatever it is, but then later on, after shit has gone down, it all kind of hits me.


Do you shut them off consciously or do they just shut off on their own? How do you do this? 
Do you put on a "face" while you are feeling emotional, or do you actually shut them off from inside? 



> I'd rather be emotional and deal with pain in silence or alone though vs. having people hugging me or something.


Why?



> Sometimes it hits me harder because I ignore emotions and then all of a sudden it hits me.


When you ignore emotions do you know that you are doing so? Or you don't even realize it until it hits?



> When it comes to something unexpected, something that I am very emotionally tied into, if something unexpected happens I feel it very intensely. I can;t think straight, and I feel like physically sick. My mind races and I can get panic attacks. I'm anxious and on edge and I usually take a sleeping pill, tranquilizer or have a drink to calm me down or knock me out because once I sleep I'm usually fine. But in that moment it's pretty visceral and terrifying.


That's intense. But I would expect no less from you. ;P
What would count as something unexpected? 
Do you tend to prepare for various outcomes?



> If it;s anger, I'm more aggressive. I'll punch walls or bust out pushups. I have to do something physical because the rage is so intense and seething. It's almost like my body is preparing itself for a fight. Peripherals go out of focus, I feel that energy rising through me, I don't pay attention to logical talk and I'm focusing on destroying whatever it is and taking on as minimal damage as possible. Now, obviously you can;t go around making every motherfucker bite the curb, but that's how my body reacts to it. I'm running on pure adrenaline at that point.


How strong is your capacity to hold yourself back at these times? What if there's nothing or no one you can punch etc. without major consequence?


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> :shocked: you aren't boxing me in are you?
> :dry: I am INFP


Only INFPs reject boxes.

INFJs create their own boxes and then get annoyed when no one can read their mind.


----------



## 7rr7s

The goal for this week is to investigate type 6 more. I'm still curious on @mushr00ms thoughts for type 6 for me. I know @Swordsman of Mana could see it, so it shall be delved into a little more in the next coming weeks. I'll also be revisiting my type me thread, because I think for the first time in a very long time I'm actually feeling like myself again. I'm not severely depressed nihilistic mode , and I'm also not unrealistically optimistic manic mode either. I'm not sure to what extent that could affect things, but it's probably good to type from a place of health to begin with.


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> Only INFPs reject boxes.
> 
> INFJs create their own boxes and then get annoyed when no one can read their mind.


Well I don't mind boxes, stereotypes, preconception, (I use them myself too) but I can be annoyed when people can't see past them or can't phatom, even resist perceiving anything beyond them.


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> :shocked: you aren't boxing me in are you?
> :dry: I am INFP


I can box whoever the fuck I want, and likewise. We can still question eachothers boxing techniques. Those are the rules. :kitteh:

Hmm. I'm not convinced your INFP, although you are INxP for sure. I'll need to interact with your ore, I guess. We seem to clash more as conflictor more than we do Supervisor/supervisee.


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> I can box whoever the fuck I want, and likewise. We can still question eachothers boxing techniques. Those are the rules. :kitteh:
> 
> Hmm. I'm not convinced your INFP, although you are INxP for sure. I'll need to interact with your ore, I guess. We seem to clash more as conflictor more than we do Supervisor/supervisee.


You are aware you contradict yourself? Maybe two or three times already in a handful of posts. 

I don't clash, may I remind you, it was you who posted with scepsis about enneagram, boxing in, narrowing minds, and stuff. Or is this what you mean with being "fluid"? :tongue:

But I mean what sort of courtesy were you expecting with an attitude like that?


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> You are aware you contradict yourself? Maybe two or three times already in a handful of posts.
> 
> I don't clash, may I remind you, it was you who posted with scepsis about enneagram, boxing and stuff. Or is this what you mean with being "fluid"? :tongue:


Contradicting oneself is a symptom of weak Ti, or, as the Socionics lot calls it, Ti PoLR (for reference: Socionics - the16types.info - The Hidden Agenda and Point of Least Resistance).

You're just nitpicking, which is classic Ti. I will happily admit that I contradict myself and hop from subject to subject. It's how I roll.


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> Contradicting oneself is a symptom of weak Ti, or, as the Socionics lot calls it, Ti PoLR (for reference: Socionics - the16types.info - The Hidden Agenda and Point of Least Resistance).
> 
> You're just nitpicking, which is classic Ti. I will happily admit that I contradict myself and hop from subject to subject. It's how I roll.


I think you have a lot to learn.


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> I think you have a lot to learn.


Lol. You're full of unfounded opinions. Go on, enlighten me. I dare you. :kitteh:


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> Lol. You're full of unfounded opinions. Go on, enlighten me. I dare you. :kitteh:


What makes *you* think it is *unfounded* ?

Contradiction +1


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

I just felt like asking does a tritype of 594 sound right for me?


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> What makes *you* think it is *unfounded* ?


Because it is. It's all subjective. You can try and convince me that it's not, if you want. Alternatively, you can try and persuade me to take your superficial judgement of me into serious consideration if you want. I enjoy a bit of constructive criticism from time to time.


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> Because it is. It's all subjective. You can try and convince me that it's not, if you want. Alternatively, you can try and persuade me to take your superficial judgement of me into serious consideration if you want. I enjoy a bit of constructive criticism from time to time.


If you say so. What makes you think someone cares to persuade you? I'm not selling you anything. You don't have to buy it. It's a gift.


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> If you say so. What makes you think someone cares to persuade you? I'm not selling you anything. You don't have to buy it. It's a gift.


Lol, a gift? Elaborate? 

It's got nothing to do with whether you/or anyone cares or not. I have enough self respect and self love to not give a shit about that. I was under the impression that we were engaging in a conversation, that's all. Keep trying to push those buttons though.


----------



## mimesis

It's a gift in the sense that you can see whether the way see yourself and you like to portray yourself is congruent with what people mirror back to you. You are free to dismiss it of course.


----------



## HighClassSavage

Kintsugi said:


> Because it is. It's all subjective.


How is this even an argument? An opinion is inherently subjective...otherwise it wouldn't be a fucking opinion, lol. Are you seriously claiming that all opinions are invalid because they're "subjective"?


----------



## Kintsugi

Hk-47 said:


> How is this even an argument? An opinion is inherently subjective...otherwise it wouldn't be a fucking opinion, lol. Are you seriously claiming that all opinions are invalid because they're "subjective"?


Yup. I can chose to take them seriously or not depending on what mood I'm in, because I'm also a subjective creature. Why, is this not what everyone does, no?

Or are you implying that I should take someones baseless assumption at face value?


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> Yup. I can chose to take them seriously or not depending on what mood I'm in, because I'm also a subjective creature. Why, is this not what everyone does, no?


Not everyone, but I guess many yes. 


Kintsugi said:


> Or are you implying that I should take someones baseless assumption at face value?


I'm not implying anything. If you dismiss it, that's fine.


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> I'm not implying anything. If you dismiss it, that's fine.


Message wasn't for you, dude. I quoted someone else.

EDIT: Not meaning to come across too antagonistically. I'm just quite direct and blunt. I enjoy conversations like this, I view it as an opportunity for growth. Let's just keep this shit open and honest.


----------



## mimesis

Kintsugi said:


> Message wasn't for you, dude. I quoted someone else.
> 
> EDIT: Not meaning to come across too antagonistically. I'm just quite direct and blunt. I enjoy conversations like this, I view it as an opportunity for growth. Let's just keep this shit open and honest.


Woops. Scusi, didn't see that. :tongue:


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> Woops. Scusi, didn't see that. :tongue:


It's all gravy. ^_^ 

In the words of Ashleigh Brilliant;_ "don't shoot - we be on the same side!"

_But we aren't going to know the answer to this until we both dig beneath the top soil. That's my point, really.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Kintsugi said:


> *breaks out in hives*
> Holy crap, you just totally Ti bitch-slapped me there. Ouch. :tongue:
> 
> Okay, I take back what you said. I see a fair bit of Ti now.
> 
> You realize that it's probably going to take me at least a day to get my head around the above. I'll give it a go though...for science!
> 
> *gulp*
> 
> _(Am I allowed to call an xNTJ for help? )_


Go ahead, but it was only an example anyway. :laughing:





> I don't actually know many ESTPs in person, or, at least, I haven't been able to type any of them. From observing videos of supposed ESTPs I will say that I find them to be a little annoying and obnoxious. I was wondering if it had anything to do with tertiary Fe or just weak Fi in general. Who knows. Obviously I can relate to and appreciate the dominant Se perspective. Other than that I don't really have much to say about them. I could imagine perhaps that there might be a bit of a power struggle between us?


That's a good question, and I don't know the answer. :laughing: I could come up with a vague explanation of how ESTPs, given their Fe, would be more often trying to impress "people" than ESFPs, but I don't know how that would look and could be wrong, so I really don't place any value in that explanation. Might it also be Ti/Fi-based? The way they could (theoretically) give precise mechanical explanations with proper terminology might be off-putting...



> My experience with ISFPs is mixed. I've had some really close friends over the years that I think may be ESI, but I have also met some that are, quite frankly, the most stuck-up, narrow-minded, and opinionated little shits I've ever encountered, (and that's coming from a likely core-1 Fi-type ). As with most other Gamma types I appreciate the general ease in communication, regardless of whether I like the person or not. I've been attracted to some individuals who I believe could be ESI. That introverted, intense, and dark broodiness is sexy. :kitteh:


I've met someone that I think is ISFP and I don't get a dark/broody vibe from her...then again I'm a little unsure where I got the Fi from. She has stated to me she has some pretty strong opinions on things, and in a way that makes me believe her (she didn't want to show them off _at all_), but...at the same time it seems like she's hiding certain personality traits and thoughts from me. Although I guess that could still be present in an Fi-user, so never mind! 

When I do get glimpses of opinions from her, she seems darker. But some of the opinions seemed too melodramatic to be real to my mind. Blargh. :laughing: 






> Okay, I admit - that was a bit of an exaggeration. I work with about 2-3 ENxPs and a handful of INFPs (luckily for me, no INTPs there ).


...how long have you been? :laughing: Getting that steady a type input must be interesting...



> I won't reveal too many specific details about my private life but I can say that my work involves teaching and leading workshops. I work in a very heavy Delta/Alpha environment. I think there may be 1, possibly 2 other Gammas and literally only 1 Beta (that I can think of).


What type is the Beta? 



> It's lacking in both Se and Ni. :sad:


Ah, well. Ni-doms/auxes would curb your impulses anyway. :tongue:


----------



## Kintsugi

Chained Divinity said:


> That's a good question, and I don't know the answer. :laughing: I could come up with a vague explanation of how ESTPs, given their Fe, would be more often trying to impress "people" than ESFPs, but I don't know how that would look and could be wrong, so I really don't place any value in that explanation. Might it also be Ti/Fi-based? The way they could (theoretically) give precise mechanical explanations with proper terminology might be off-putting...


You know, I think it's the Fe more than the Ti. I wouldn't say that Ti irritates me in the same way that immature Fe or a lack of Fi does; it just kind makes me feel all inferior and a bit flustered. I'm not great at accepting that I might be wrong or having someone criticize my logic or point out the inconsistencies in my argument/views. I take these things to heart way too easily and am very hard on myself. Which might be why I perceive Ti in this way? I'm not sure that trying to impress people is something strictly related to weaker Fe; and yes, I do find it annoying when I think someone is acting in such a way. 



> I've met someone that I think is ISFP and I don't get a dark/broody vibe from her...then again I'm a little unsure where I got the Fi from. She has stated to me she has some pretty strong opinions on things, and in a way that makes me believe her (she didn't want to show them off _at all), but...at the same time it seems like she's hiding certain personality traits and thoughts from me. Although I guess that could still be present in an Fi-user, so never mind!
> 
> When I do get glimpses of opinions from her, she seems darker. But some of the opinions seemed too melodramatic to be real to my mind. Blargh. :laughing: _


I guess the dark/broody vibe is not necessarily type related. Still, it's attractive to me. 

Interesting. I don't think I'd the describe the ISFPs I know as "melodramatic" (I think that's something I see as more in Fe-types, particularly when paired with Se). I would call them passionate, definitely. I have a good ESI friend and when I see him talk about something he deeply cares and values it's really quite moving. I'm not not sure others would see it in quite this way though. 



> Getting that steady a type input must be interesting...


Explain?



> What type is the Beta?


Beta quadra are the types that value Ni/Se/Fe/Ti (i.e. ESTPs)



> Ah, well. Ni-doms/auxes would curb your impulses anyway. :tongue:


I'm not sure I would describe it as "curbing", they tend to enjoy the chaos I create through my impulsive nature. If anything, they help broaden my perspective, which helps me grow and develop - which I warmly welcome.


----------



## Malandro

How does this work? Can I get some help?

Personally, I think I'm a 7, maybe with an 8 wing. Other people have said "Nah, you look like a 3/6/1" and I'm confused XD


----------



## knife

Okay. Another poster suggested I post this here:


hammersklavier said:


> So I think I'm finally nailing down at least the top half of my enneagram.
> 
> When I take the test it comes out as 7w6 and a bunch of stuff that doesn't ever stay the same. But after spending some time with an _actual_ 7w6 ( @Daleks_exterminate) it became clear we're not the same. Specifically, I'm more intense and argumentative. I don't shy away from (intellectual) challenge at all, and I definitely have a habit of driving myself to exhaustion once I spark my drive (which is not the same thing as my ambition).
> 
> Earlier today a bunch of things clicked into place and I realized that Type 8 sx/so fits me best. 8w9 fits literally like a glove, and 8w7 also fits well. I'm guessing that this is because my trifix leads with 87x ...
> 
> For those of you who know me well, do you agree? Do you think that sounds accurate based on my posting style?
> 
> 
> Kitty Sith Lord



Kitty Sith Lord


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

I'm seriously wondering if I'm a 5w6 or a 6w5...I can see quite a bit of both in myself, but can't fully determine which is my core. Maybe I've got a 7 in there, I don't even know. I have a thread, if anyone can help out. Also, I'm not fully certain of my variants: sp-lead or so-lead? I've never thought of myself as an so-lead, but after someone suggested it, I did some reading and it seems like a possibility. 


Yeah, I'm a little confused.


----------



## Paradigm

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I'm seriously wondering if I'm a 5w6 or a 6w5...I can see quite a bit of both in myself, but can't fully determine which is my core. Maybe I've got a 7 in there, I don't even know. I have a thread, if anyone can help out. Also, I'm not fully certain of my variants: sp-lead or so-lead? I've never thought of myself as an so-lead, but after someone suggested it, I did some reading and it seems like a possibility.
> Yeah, I'm a little confused.


Having read your questionnaire, I'd say 6. I didn't see anything to warrant 5, frankly.

Would need to read the thread more in-depth to say much else. Might do that later tonight.


----------



## Hollow Man

Anyone can have at me...if need be...I am not certain explicitly who to call on either....BUT...is it possible that I am a 5 (five)? 

There are a lot of five characteristics that I really identify with. Some of my lowest times actually have to do with fives main fear. I've experienced a number of times over the past few years (maybe even 5 years). I usually worry that I don't know enough, and I do worry of being helpless and not able to provide for myself (let alone anyone else). Even in potential romantic relationships, this fear manifests. I don't try to date...I have completely given up on it as a matter in fact. I don't really know what I can contribute, and I wish I could contribute more in a way than I am while being myself. 

I am quite logical, and I feel that's the best way I learn. However, I don't believe I've had a lot of proper training in logic as a child. Or maybe, the logic I use is largely kind of independent and self-done.

I also developed a fear of using tools and creating things from an early age, so I lack the tenacity of the usual T-user. I've had a fear of breaking things for a long time and also of hurting myself with tools (blades, etc.). 

However, I do think that the truth and reality are important things to base a life around. I've come to accept and believe that emotions are transient...it takes problem solving and noticing what's around...sometimes I can actually be cool when I am not paranoid and fearful around people though. 

I do have strong feelings, but a lot of them are actually kind of rudimentary and reactionary. I am embarrassed to share them with others, but I can definitely feel emotions alone. I enjoy crying even at times (usually to music or emotional situations that I can understand/have experienced). But with other people, I am completely frightened to share how I feel or opinions. 

I actually have trouble with criticizing other peoples' work quite a bit, and I still don't know how to do it at all. 

I relate with the fives' kind of aversion to material goods or status-y things (unless there's a good use for them).


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Just putting my name in here in case anyone disagrees with what I've typed myself as.


----------



## rainrunner

Semi-sure that my tritype is 5w4 4w5 9w1 but ... who knows. I have a talent for mistyping myself.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@lightwing
I'm not sure if you know your stacking or tritype, but I see you as 6w5>1w9>3w4 Sx/Sp (if you turned out to be a core 1, it wouldn't surprise me). you come off intense and quietly passionate (but then again, maybe that's just me projecting that onto you based on the sinister Battousai avatar lmao)


----------



## lightwing

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I see you as 6w5>1w9>3w4 Sx/Sp (if you turned out to be a core 1, it wouldn't surprise me). you come off intense and quietly passionate (but then again, maybe that's just me projecting that onto you based on the sinister Battousai avatar lmao)


Thanks for the input! You could be right.


I found an online test one time that gave me 6w5 9w1 4w3 sp/sx and what little I could find on 694 sp I agreed with. I'll certainly take a better look into your suggestion! IRL though, I'm a bit more subdued than I am on here; extra emphasis on the quietly, than passionate. :happy: I was certainly more passionate when I was younger.


----------



## Luzy

I don't think anyone on here knows me, but anyways I am almost sure I am a 7w6 4w3 9w8 so/sx but yknow, we never know for sure...


----------



## daftdivision

My tritype quiz results were 4w5-5w4-9w1. I honestly think that my true tritype is 469 and that I'm more of a 4w3 than 4w5.


----------



## TreeBob

Anyone want to take a stab at my tri-type? I still don't know if I believe in it, but if you can try and convince me of it's validity that would be super. I was once told that I am triple reactive.


----------



## mushr00m

TreeBob said:


> Anyone want to take a stab at my tri-type? I still don't know if I believe in it, but if you can try and convince me of it's validity that would be super. I was once told that I am triple reactive.


8w9 - you seem more on the 9ish side of things.
3w4 - don't see much seductiveness from 2 nor shame but more emotional control with the slant of not caring about being liked so much in 4.
head fix is a difficult one, maybe due to being a core gut type, it is sometimes said gut types are the furthest away from head types but that's just a generalisation.


----------



## Retsu

I honestly have no idea what my heart type is, I don't relate to any of them... ;-; I'm fairly sure my gut fix is 1 rather than 9 because I'm not nearly as peace loving as I should be and I'm not _particularly _afraid of conflict as long as what I'm fighting for is _right_. Assistance plz.
Hell I barely relate to Six but that's because all of the descriptions are 0/10. SCARED SCARED ERMERGERD UR SCARD OF EFRIFEN!!!!!! I saw one website that divided Six into the instinctual variants which was great because they're all so different and Social Six is just like me, so hey.


----------



## TreeBob

mushr00m said:


> 8w9 - you seem more on the 9ish side of things.


That's interesting, why 9?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Diphendremamine 
after studying 6s more...you were right, you are totally a Social 6 and not a 1. I'd say your full type is 6w?>1w2>3w4 So/Sx with strong secondary Sx. I'm unsure of your wing, because you seem so much more composed and low key than 6w7, but more hedonistic and with a wild side, which I have not seen in Social 6w5.



TreeBob said:


> That's interesting, why 9?


I can see where she's coming from honestly. your anger has a sort of "who woke me up...." quality to it. Sexual 8w7 is a very flamboyant personality who draws attention on a regular basis while you sort of "come out of the patch work", then re-submerge and go back to being unassuming.


----------



## heavydirtysoul

Could someone share thoughts on my typing? Pretty please. http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/354234-solve-puzzle.html I'd think of myself as an XNFJ 9w8 6w7 2w3 sx/sp.


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## Vaka

Someone hit me. I typed as 4w3 sp/sx for a while, but I've had a lot of chaos in my life and now I'm just confused, I'm also probably bipolar


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

*Oh, for the love of....*

I've been looking into the childhood experience theory pertaining to Enneagram. Interesting stuff, and according to it, I'm basically a Five (with a little Six thrown in) who became....a Nine. Holy shit, the Nine experience was an almost perfect description of what I've been going through, on and off, since my early teens...but isn't that too late to effect one's type? Maybe I'm a core Nine, currently stuck on her connection to Six? I never could shake the feeling that much of my Sixish behavior is...not normal, a recent coping mechanism at best.

Gah, the Five description brought up a lot of memories, though: my parents were pretty overprotective and that always annoyed me. I wanted to explore and run around having adventures but oh, it's too dangerous for me to be out of my parents' sight. A friend of mine a ways back once mentioned (I forget how it came up) that when she was little her parents had one of those backpack baby leashes, so they could keep her close by while still keeping her hands "free to explore". I heard that and thought, you lucky bitch, my parents took care to flank me, holding each of my hands so they wouldn't lose me. I would have loved a baby leash...Hell, even now, if my mother and I go anywhere together she freaks out if I'm not within her line of sight.

I am doubting Six. Which probably just means I am a Six. The childhood theory is only one possibility anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't fit it.


----------



## Owner Of A Lonely Heart

*consent given*

Currently typed ISFP 9w1 4w3 7w6 sx/sp

*was previously typed as an INFP*

There has been some questions over whether I could be an ESFP or not as well if this is the correct stacking for me or not sx/sp?
@Dalton and @Karma brought up the idea of me being ESFP
@Flatlander helped me to type as ISFP over INFP, but there was a little debate if I could be INTJ because of how up upset I can be when I'm frustrated. (Or basically I guess it was it seems like I can sometimes use Te a lot, but then if I'm truly an ISFP that's suppose to be my inferior function. So it's kind of complicated in that way.
@J Squirrel brought into question whether or not I'm a sx-dom or not. 

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...nctual-variant-test-final-version-16.html#156 (My initial request for help on this.)
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...nctual-variant-test-final-version-16.html#158 (Flatlander's response)
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...nctual-variant-test-final-version-17.html#162 (@Paradigm's response, which led me to this thread)

J Squirrel, Flatlander, Dalton, Karma, and maybe @snowbell probably know me the best on here. (or as of lately that is true)

*is considering maybe being sp/sx* I can't remember which thread or site I read it on, but it was talking about when the sp-dom is unhealthy that this type's personal preservation of self tends slide back or fall part. So they suffer from lack of sleep, over or under eating, lack of hygiene etc, which I feel describes me well.

*so yes consent is given and so have at it peoples*


----------



## Owner Of A Lonely Heart

^ @Paradigm


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

As long as my signature stands, you're welcome to tell me why I actually have a type after all. 

Have at it.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> As long as my signature stands, you're welcome to tell me why I actually have a type after all.
> 
> Have at it.


As long as what we decide to put in our signature is representative of even a small part of us, I'd say you seem like an idealist. I'd start with that triad 1/4/7. You don't come off all that 1-like, though. The signature makes me think you are a lot more whimsical than I'd expect from a 1. What say you? Have you created a 'type me' thread that I can read?

Irrespective of all that and more though, enneagram is a journey _you_ must undertake with sincerity. Other people may help, they may even mislead because there is only so much another can understand about truly _being_ you. Only you (can) know what that's like.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> As long as what we decide to put in our signature is representative of even a small part of us, I'd say you seem like an idealist. I'd start with that triad 1/4/7. You don't come off all that 1-like, though. The signature makes me think you are a lot more whimsical than I'd expect from a 1. What say you? Have you created a 'type me' thread that I can read?


Nay, I've made my stance on online typing very clear. I may put a type me thread up eventually, for fun, but currently that is not part of my journey. I am, however, always open to feedback.

Of the three, I'd agree 1 is the least likely, though I have some 1ish characteristics. Let me know how you are seeing idealism, though...I cringe at the thought. 



> Irrespective of all that and more though, enneagram is a journey _you_ must undertake with sincerity. Other people may help, they may even mislead because there is only so much another can understand about truly _being_ you. Only you (can) know what that's like.


Indeed so. 

I've had my share of online typing fiascoes in other times, in other places. I currently know more than most regarding the enneagram and certainly regarding myself. Still, for reasons of transparency and entertainment, I thought it well to allow openness in the process.  

Hence, anyone who has something to tell me may do so at any time.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Nay, I've made my stance on online typing very clear. I may put a type me thread up eventually, for fun, but currently that is not part of my journey. I am, however, always open to feedback.
> 
> Of the three, I'd agree 1 is the least likely, though I have some 1ish characteristics. Let me know how you are seeing idealism, though...I cringe at the thought.


ehh...

the whole line by Huxley -
_But I don’t want comfort. *I want God. I want poetry. I want real danger. I want freedom. I want goodness. I want sin.*_

All of that smacks of idealism. Not of a puritanical utopia, but a world that embraces both sides of the coin. Like how the quote has both 'god' and 'sin.' Even though I'm not religious, I'm pretty sure that God and Sin lie at opposite ends of a spectrum. It's like a romanticist view that is akin to this: we are perfect with all our imperfections. 

I'm not really sure a 1 would see it like that, or at least, it would take a lot of letting-go of frustration for a 1 to come to truly accept that we are perfect with our flaws. 

Aside from that I am unable to place you more specifically as 4 or 7. 



> Indeed so.
> 
> I've had my share of online typing fiascoes in other times, in other places. I currently know more than most regarding the enneagram and certainly regarding myself. Still, for reasons of transparency and entertainment, I thought it well to allow openness in the process.
> 
> Hence, anyone who has something to tell me may do so at any time.


The reasons of transparency I don't get. Entertainment I do get. Bear in mind, I once created a type-me thread after I had settled on a type only to see how many others would 'get it right,' so to speak. If you're doing that (not saying that you are, but IF you are) I'd say that is a sign of narcissism.  XD


----------



## Golden Rose

@Owner Of A Lonely Heart since no one else is doing this, I'll bite!

From what I know of you and all of our interactions, and we had plenty, I'd say that you're an ESFP 9w8 sp/sx. ESFP over ISFP because you seem to be an extrovert in the more classic sense (and you said yourself that the description seems to fit) and, while detecting Se through text can be harder, you don't seem to be a Fi-dom as you lack the typical clamminess and strongly principled stubbornness of an ISFP and your Fi only strengthens when you're under extreme pressure making you a lot more snappy and bitey than usual. You seem to be people oriented, as well, just not particularly group or social dynamics conscious (another reason why I discarded sp/soc or soc/sp) as much as you want to make people laugh and you always want to share what's on your mind, in a really blunt and playful way. Your Ni seems to be inferior rather than tertiary, making it often hard for you to read people if you don't see immediate physical or vocal reactions and leading you to often believe stubbornly in the wrong intuition. Sp seems to fit a lot as your areas of interest, your communication style and your worries are extremely sp-ish in nature and often clash with the sx-ness of people around you. But Sx is definitely your second function as you lack the group/social drive of a soc first/second user (my Fi-aux, soc-dom friend is very Fe-ish in nature) and you really want to have deep and intense connections with a selected few, you're just often held back by your own sp worries and needs.


----------



## Hespera

Alrighty, I have identified as 6w7 for a while now, and I definitely have a lot of the characteristics (at least behaviorally). I'm starting to consider that I've been mistaken, however. 

Although I don't fit perfectly into the descriptions of 1's and wouldn't come off as a type A stereotype by any means (I suspect I might be 1w2), as I've dug deeper into the motivations of the types 1 resonates even deeper than 6 does. The main problem is that I find it difficult to differentiate between the influence of the two since both are superego types (and I am most DEFINITELY a superego type).

Ok, quick pro and con list:

6 pros: I'm cynical, have a deep mistrust of the world in general and am always second-guessing myself, am on the lookout for things to go wrong (although I'm not sure if this is a 6ish anxiety or if it's perfectionism/trying to avoid mistakes), I definitely have the "buddy" energy (even though I'm an introvert, I can come of like a puppy dog) and I get along well with authority. I am always searching and that could be me looking for something "safe" to believe in (although it could, again, be perfectionism or looking for the "right" way). I'm also unsure of my ability to take care of myself and I definitely have the need for reassurance when I make decisions.

1 pros: I've mis-identified as 4 and 7 (and although 9 isn't completely foreign, I never feel that I in any way that I go to 3), I am deeply critical of myself and others, although I'm not neat or a workaholic I do tend to have very high standards and a lot of "should's", I have anger issues that I've only just realized and the most common insults thrown at me are that I'm self-righteous and need to let loose more. I'm also idealistic to a T and take rules and my values VERY seriously (the amount of times people have called me a bleeding heart liberal or feminazi in my stupid conservative hometown almost makes me proud).

Here is a link to my questionnaire: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/148932-test-your-typing-skills.html

If it helps, I'm pretty sure I'm so/sp and I'm an INFP

Thanks!


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> ehh...
> 
> the whole line by Huxley -
> _But I don’t want comfort. *I want God. I want poetry. I want real danger. I want freedom. I want goodness. I want sin.*_
> 
> All of that smacks of idealism. Not of a puritanical utopia, but a world that embraces both sides of the coin. Like how the quote has both 'god' and 'sin.' Even though I'm not religious, I'm pretty sure that God and Sin lie at opposite ends of a spectrum. It's like a romanticist view that is akin to this: we are perfect with all our imperfections.


To me, it's more like, I don't want to live the boring lives that other people do. The quote reminds me of that.



> I'm not really sure a 1 would see it like that, or at least, it would take a lot of letting-go of frustration for a 1 to come to truly accept that we are perfect with our flaws.
> 
> Aside from that I am unable to place you more specifically as 4 or 7.


Kay, thanks. I agree with the assessment on 1, which is pretty much why I don't type that way. "Flaws" just don't get under my skin the way you'd expect. Why not embrace the inherent beauty of what God made? (Not that I believe in God or anything, but as a manner of speaking).



> The reasons of transparency I don't get. Entertainment I do get. Bear in mind, I once created a type-me thread after I had settled on a type only to see how many others would 'get it right,' so to speak. If you're doing that (not saying that you are, but IF you are) I'd say that is a sign of narcissism.  XD


I _am_ pretty narcissistic. But the transparency thing is more like...because people can just get so nasty about it when you type one way and they disagree. I've seen it in many places, sometimes directed against myself. It's part of why I'm so adamant about my username. OK, so, I'll give everyone a chance to have their say and I'll resolve to take it all with a grain of salt. Even if I don't listen, no one should feel afraid to say something.


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## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> To me, it's more like, I don't want to live the boring lives that other people do. The quote reminds me of that.
> 
> 
> Kay, thanks. I agree with the assessment on 1, which is pretty much why I don't type that way. "Flaws" just don't get under my skin the way you'd expect. Why not embrace the inherent beauty of what God made? (Not that I believe in God or anything, but as a manner of speaking).
> 
> 
> I _am_ pretty narcissistic. But the transparency thing is more like...because people can just get so nasty about it when you type one way and they disagree. I've seen it in many places, sometimes directed against myself. It's part of why I'm so adamant about my username. OK, so, I'll give everyone a chance to have their say and I'll resolve to take it all with a grain of salt. Even if I don't listen, no one should feel afraid to say something.


well, I think ima not try to type you for one simple reason - you're INFP. 
If you ever get pissed off and go all Fi on me, Ima b bummed coz its my PoLR. XD

I can help if you want me to, but.. ima just sit back for now.


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## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> well, I think ima not try to type you for one simple reason - you're INFP.
> If you ever get pissed off and go all Fi on me, Ima b bummed coz its my PoLR. XD
> 
> I can help if you want me to, but.. ima just sit back for now.


What makes you say INFP? I thought my thinking preference was fairly clear (but have left it open, because, heck I identify more with INFP than INTP).


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## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> What makes you say INFP? I thought my thinking preference was fairly clear (but have left it open, because, heck I identify more with INFP than INTP).


uhh.. actually, I think I confused you for someone else. I don't really know why. I have those brain-fart moments a lot 

XD

Anyhow. It's like...interactions on a typing based forum are not enough to go on to type someone, unless they give you more to go on, like a type-me thread. I understand that you don't want to do that but see, typing a person can't happen in a contextual vacuum. So, yeah, I know little to nothing about you and what little I saw through your sig. and your posts on the 7 forum seem... 7-ey, but I can't be sure.


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## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> uhh.. actually, I think I confused you for someone else. I don't really know why. I have those brain-fart moments a lot


XD is ok.



> Anyhow. It's like...interactions on a typing based forum are not enough to go on to type someone, unless they give you more to go on, like a type-me thread. I understand that you don't want to do that but see, typing a person can't happen in a contextual vacuum. So, yeah, I know little to nothing about you and what little I saw through your sig. and your posts on the 7 forum seem... 7-ey, but I can't be sure.


No, I agree, and I understand what you're saying. I was simply putting the statement out there (as long as my signature stands!).


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## DomNapoleon

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/136879-instincts.html

I'm interested in listening @Naqsh opinion on my instincts. :kitteh: @Paradigm can you give your input too? And anyone who is into instincts.


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## littlebirdx

Consent given. 

I don't even know what I am anymore, haha. I've tested pretty consistently as a 4w5 for my core type. I've also tested as a 6w? and a 9w1, but neither of those seem right to me. I feel like my basic fear/anxiety is very different than that of an e6.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

littlebirdx said:


> Consent given.
> 
> I don't even know what I am anymore, haha. I've tested pretty consistently as a 4w5 for my core type. I've also tested as a 6w? and a 9w1, but neither of those seem right to me. I feel like my basic fear/anxiety is very different than that of an e6.


In what way would you say it's different?


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## littlebirdx

Kink said:


> In what way would you say it's different?


1. I think it's based more on nurture than nature. I don't just sit in this constant state of anxiety. I am highly anxious when a situation triggers that anxiety, which causes me to relive previous experiences/emotions. 
2. Maybe I'm just not understanding e6 descriptions in terms of myself? I don't typically seek others for "security" or "test" the loyalty/trustworthiness of those around me. If I question someone's trustworthiness, I don't test them, I shut them out and internalize. I'd (usually) rather deal with my emotions myself than drag someone else into it, especially if I don't think I can trust them.


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## Paradigm

littlebirdx said:


> I don't just sit in this constant state of anxiety.


Neither does anyone else who doesn't have pathological anxiety... 

The anxiety of 6 is existential and unnoticeable to many 6s themselves. See here: http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/73144-enneagram-type-6-proper-description.html.



> 2. Maybe I'm just not understanding e6 descriptions in terms of myself? I don't typically seek others for "security" or "test" the loyalty/trustworthiness of those around me. If I question someone's trustworthiness, I don't test them, I shut them out and internalize. I'd (usually) rather deal with my emotions myself than drag someone else into it, especially if I don't think I can trust them.


6w5. Not necessarily core, probably at least a fix.

As a note, I don't "test" people either -- I find it hypocritical and pointless -- but I am drawn to specific people I like being around. And I'll internalize almost anything emotional, but tend to vent when there's conflict. I'm a very laconic 6w7, though, and 6w5s can sometimes be very different than 6w7s.


----------



## galactic collision

I'll bite. Here's my post in the what's my type forum. Sorry it's long. I've been sure I'm a 4 for a while, but I've been doubting it a little recently.


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## Golden Rose

This particular conversation with SoM made me doubt the order of my instincts, I'm quite sure I'm a sx-dom but I could see sx/sp over sx/so according to his definition, as well as different ones. Y'all can also have a stab at my entire typing chart though I doubt there's any mistypes in there 


@Dalton @Swordsman of Mana @Animal @Quang @kaleidoscope and anyone who wants to take a stab at it. I'd tag more people but many of you don't seem too fond of type validation ;O (also the list would be endless).


----------



## kaleidoscope

Karma said:


> This particular conversation with SoM made me doubt the order of my instincts, I'm quite sure I'm a sx-dom but I could see sx/sp over sx/so according to his definition, as well as different ones. Y'all can also have a stab at my entire typing chart though I doubt there's any mistypes in there


I agree that Sx/So and Sx/Sp vibe differently, but that alone should not be an indicator of instinctual stackings. Personally, I relate a lot to parts of social and self-pres 4 vibe descriptions and neither of those work for me xD I also am not as flamboyant/zany as Sx/So types are portrayed to be, but it's very obvious to me (and other people I've discussed my instincts with) that I am Sp-last and Sx-first. 

First, make sure you know how being Sp-last and So-last manifests itself. There's a lot of misconceptions out there, so this thread has a lot of excellent material and discussions on the matter. Fwiw, you don't seem Sp-second to me but it's hard for me to explain why. It'd help if you told me a bit more how you relate to the social and self-pres instinct. 

^^


----------



## Golden Rose

@kaleidoscope First of all your new avatar is GORGEOUS. <3

I didn't consider vibes as a game changer until now, unless we were talking about Naranjo's instinctual subtypes (then again, it's mostly the dominant instinct and I don't think me being sx first is in question) but I can see a lot of truth in different attitudes according to someone's last instinct. I couldn't see myself as so-last either but maybe me being a Fe-dom and a type 2 might play a role in my social focus and approval/status seeking? Obviously my types are both accurate and earlier I had a taste of that dreadful pride/rage/envy combo that an irritated core 2 might get (can easily be summed up as "how DARE you!" with some more mental cursing on the side ;P) but that makes me soc-like in nature, much like soc-doms can come across as Fe-ish. I'll highlight what I relate to the most about both instincts and then add a bit more personal input, probably a tedious read haha so thanks for dedicating me your time once again, I really appreciate that <3


* *




1a) SP dominant or secondary - survival, comfort, habits, supplies. You will take care of your basic needs and *needs of those who are close to you*. These people set up little homes or nests for themselves wherever they go. *It can becomes neurotic when fear and habit distort the instinct (e.g. eating disorders, hoarding).* One may experience “issues” that drain energy and cause one to lose Presence. Sp firsts are the grounded version of their type, while sp-seconds may have similar concerns but in lighter, more exploratory form.

More on SP dominance in health and unhealth (from Oceanmoonshine's)

Those individuals who are dominated by the instinct for self-preservation often have a grounded or practical quality; they frequently develop a high degree of self-sufficiency, discipline and maturity. Many self-pres subtypes *devote themselves to programs for self-improvement* and, of all the subtypes are probably the most “focused.” All of these qualities can clearly be beneficial, but when the personality is unbalanced, a dominant self-preservational instinct can manifest in an obsessive concern with questions of health, such as *a focus on diet or exercise which might be punitive or otherwise excessive*. Some self-pres types, when unbalanced, worry too much about health, mortality, finances or security. In fact, as life is ephemeral and safety an illusion, *worry in general*, of whatever sort, is a frequent manifestation of a dominant instinct for self-preservation.


b) SP blind spot - *lack of solid foundation*, lack in comfort and coziness, lack in attention to health and upkeep, since these people are rarely concerned about sp matters. There is *fear is of being an "eternal child" who won’t take care of ones’ self and expectation of failure* in dealing with sp instinct. They tend to look down on sp-domain, express certain cynicism towards it e.g. state that sp-firsts are too fearful and “don’t know how to really live".

More on SP blind spot

When the instinct for self-preservation is last in the instinctual stacking, the individual will often be *somewhat ungrounded* or seemingly “immature.” Such individuals often have a hard time focusing on issues such as financial security or the commitment to the development of practical skills. Sometimes, issues of health are ignored. In the more extroverted types, individuals who are self-pres last, often find it *difficult to develop “inwardness.”*





* *




3a) SO dominant or secondary - *Focus on finding one's place in the world, neglect of other things in favor of group contributions* (workaholic), need to be plugged into something, danger of being overly accommodating. This can be a *narcissistic need satisfied through social manipulation*. Focus is on politics, jockeying for positions and roles. You may not want to join but feel aware of the price, so question arises: do I participate or not? So-firsts want to know what’s going on with other people as a way to uncover the hierarchy - talk is currency, discourse is welcomed. Exploring - Are we on the same team? Who can I trust? Healthy expression—*how can this help everyone? *Unhealthy expression—what’s in it for me? Is this worth my while?


More on SO dominance in health and unhealth

On the high side, social subtypes are the most likely to sacrifice their narrow interests in service of that which is larger than themselves. They *extend themselves toward others and often have a sort of generosity with their time and energy*. They are *aware of group dynamics and underlying emotional currents.* On the down side however, social subtypes are the most *prone to feelings of social shame; as they are the most acutely aware of the opinions of others, they suffer the most when they feel a sense of social rejection*. Social subtypes can therefore suffer from self-consciousness. In less balanced personalities, this can lead to a *need to conform to the standards of the group in order to achieve acceptance*. Social subtypes can sometimes *fail to focus on the needs of the self* as they are searching for their identity in terms of the larger whole.


b) SO blind spot - finds it hard to concern self with another’s agenda, dismissive. They may feel that connecting socially will cost them something and consider interactions to be draining. Would rather act as a lone force, lone wolves, I'm-on-my-own attitude, feeling that they don't need others and others don't need them. Fear of being emotionally crippled, being unable to connect with many people, self-conscious of being socially ungracious. It’s hard to take in the gifts and generosity of others. Projected fear - *if I ignore others, they will ignore me*. There’s an expectation of humiliation. *A desire not to impose self on people in fear of not being wanted or being klutzy.*
More on SO blind spot

When the social instinct is least developed, the individual is going to find it difficult to see why it is important to form social connections or to cultivate multiple relationships. This, in turn, can lead to a certain amount of social isolation (when unhealthy, irl not online). And, as we all must find a niche in the larger whole, those whose social instinct is least developed, can find it difficult to negotiate the needs of the social realm which make this possible. Those whose social instinct is last in the instinctual stacking, find interdependence difficult and dependence on others barely tolerable. But all human beings are interdependent, and sometimes, dependent - when they are, for instance, young, weak, sick, old or dying. Those whose social instinct remains undeveloped are trying to attain a type of independence and self-sufficiency which is not possible for human beings. This “false independence” almost certainly leads to unnecessary suffering and impoverishment of experience.





* *




a) sx/sp


Motivation: *To know the heart, reconcile inner conflict, form a secure union.* 


This is perhaps the *most internally conflicted* of the stackings, and potentially *the most inconsistent in behavior*. This may occur as a blockage of the sexual instinct which can be redirected as a more generally brooding and *troubled personality*. *They may isolate themselves for long periods of time before reemerging*. They live according to a strictly personal outlook and are not particularly concerned with the approval of others outside of their immediate concern. They seem to be *searching for something, the missing piece*. If they find a soulmate they will unite without fanfare, forming a secret bond, dealing with formalities as an afterthought. *Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche*, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious. Under periods of stress severe sexual tensions may manifest as erratic, impulsively destructive behavior. Can seem restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander. May be prone to self-medicating.


Energy: *intense energy expressed calmly, steadily, assertively*
Blind spot: *Likely to neglect their desire to maintain physical saftey, comfort, and an orderly lifestyle for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences, in average-healthy levels*. May not have an awareness of the need to connect in a broader sense with the world, of a sense of security or in groups or of the need to seek it, or even of the need to foster approval, support, and understanding of themselves within groups they are connected with, often causing misunderstandings with allies, supporters, friends, and family members.





* *




Motivation: *To impact others*, question assumptions, _challenge convention_. 


This is the type that _exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy_ (??? maybe, not up to me to tell). *They may identify so strongly with whatever they're involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change.* Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it's purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They *enjoy pushing other's buttons,* especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It's not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they're _able to support with heartfelt conviction_. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. _While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability_. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. *Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.*


Energy: *intense energy expressed outwards, assertively*
Blind spot: *Likely to neglect their desire to build their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences*, in average-healthy levels. _May not have an awareness of the body's need for food or sleep_, or of the need to accumulate wealth for reasons of security, or of _the need to manage time or resources to establish an orderly lifestyle_.




This one surprisingly works too but I'm probably not a social 2:


* *




a) soc/sx


Motivation: *To create lasting connections with those they are interested in. *


This type has *very strong one to one social skills, but is usually uncomfortable in group settings*. They e*njoy cultivating multiple relationships*, and *can be intensely involved when in the presence of someone they are interested in*, but have difficulty sustaining these bonds when apart. This may give the _impression of being flighty and rootless_, *willing to adapt and mirror others in order to connect*, but lacking a defined approach that would give their relationships a more solid standing. *They may have political interests, but are generally more pragmatic and less partisan than the other social variant. They are often attuned to pop culture and the latest trends.*


Energy: _outward energy expressed intensely_, broadly
Mindset: "If I can get close to people with merging/intensity, I can make sure of and keep improving my position and inclusion in the group/world."
Blind spot: Likely to neglect their desire to seek intense connections and experiences for the sake of their primary concern of building their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others, in average-healthy levels. _May not have an awareness of the body's need for food or sleep_, or of the need to accumulate wealth for reasons of security, or of _the need to manage time or resources to establish an orderly lifestyle_.




Personal musings.


* *




I can relate to some aspects of both, I definitely have the more grounded and mature sp approach, with their struggles about the overwhelming sexual energy of a 2 sx-dom and, sometimes, unnecessary worries about health although I'm not particularly concerned about finances or practical matters (then again, highly intuitive, born wealthy, could probably manage them well). I relate to the social aspect when it comes to be a great emotions reader, making sure that I'm always in on the news, being extremely aware of social dynamics and wanting strong connections with everyone, often by mirroring them and seeming devoid of my own taste (although I usually become legitimately interested in the stuff they like, though it's mostly unconscious and what drove me to them anyway) and a "climber". But then again, I'm not a political partisan and I prefer milder positions, unless I'm keeping them private or it's comfortable for me to voice them, even in a very assertive sxy way. Deep connections, relationships, love, intimacy >>> other concerns, I take care of others quite a lot because it pleases me too and I can hint at them when it comes to my own need (which I might usually forget, both sp and soc ones) and while I still do them regardless because of my nature, some interactions are draining or not particularly enjoyable to me (then again upbringing, etiquette lessons, "you have to win love, it doesn't come on its own" -> unhealthy ESFJ soc 2 mother). I'm extremely seductive, even in that sexual 2 "give to receive" way, but it's more playful and airy... intense and involuntary at times, hard to rein in but more "slutty spoiled minx" "queen bee" or "foxy lil schemer" than "aggressive, dangerous, in your face temptress" or "wearing sexuality on the sleeve". It's more Hot-Cute than Hot-Damn, in a way (I know, it sounds weird to me too to be talking about myself in these terms haha ;P but we can get the boyfriend to confirm) in a way it's more of a powerful but subtle thing which fits sx/sp or even soc/sx better but i'm probably *not* a sx dom. Or am I? I'd hate to be leaving the sx ranks haha.




These were some more thoughts, all written in the spur of the moment though I planned this post and how to tackle it last night. Again, I won't tag everyone but anyone can answer me or ask further questions, I can try to be a lot more brief than this, I'll borrow some mock Te haha. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Arya

The Typeless Wonder said:


> As long as my signature stands, you're welcome to tell me why I actually have a type after all.
> 
> Have at it.


Type four :kitteh: Can't box in the 4s y'know. Or type nine. That's a more serious idea on my part, although I don't have much to go off of here, but I'll take my stab.

"Kay, thanks. I agree with the assessment on 1, which is pretty much why I don't type that way. "Flaws" just don't get under my skin the way you'd expect. Why not embrace the inherent beauty of what God made? (Not that I believe in God or anything, but as a manner of speaking)." Choosing to embrace beauty over flaws.

"I _am_ pretty narcissistic. But the transparency thing is more like...because people can just get so nasty about it when you type one way and they disagree. I've seen it in many places, sometimes directed against myself. It's part of why I'm so adamant about my username. OK, so, I'll give everyone a chance to have their say and I'll resolve to take it all with a grain of salt. Even if I don't listen, no one should feel afraid to say something." Not wanting drama, but not actually listening. And plus saying that you're typeless could be very nine like anyways. Nines pick up mor on universal aspects of people.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Arya said:


> Type four :kitteh: Can't box in the 4s y'know. Or type nine. That's a more serious idea on my part, although I don't have much to go off of here, but I'll take my stab.
> 
> "Kay, thanks. I agree with the assessment on 1, which is pretty much why I don't type that way. "Flaws" just don't get under my skin the way you'd expect. Why not embrace the inherent beauty of what God made? (Not that I believe in God or anything, but as a manner of speaking)." Choosing to embrace beauty over flaws.
> 
> "I _am_ pretty narcissistic. But the transparency thing is more like...because people can just get so nasty about it when you type one way and they disagree. I've seen it in many places, sometimes directed against myself. It's part of why I'm so adamant about my username. OK, so, I'll give everyone a chance to have their say and I'll resolve to take it all with a grain of salt. Even if I don't listen, no one should feel afraid to say something." Not wanting drama, but not actually listening. And plus saying that you're typeless could be very nine like anyways. Nines pick up mor on universal aspects of people.


Thanks. Four is currently the most likely suspect, but there are lots of reasons I haven't gone ahead and declared it, which I'm sure will come up in future posts. 

Nine, no. Not even close. Harmony can be screwed. War, not peace. Utterly lack an even keel. I know why people think 9 based on the fact that I remain staunchly untyped, but the painful fact is that I know I'm not one of em.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Animal

@The Typeless Wonder
If I had to type you with a gun to my head, the first thing that would pop into mind would be a 4, based on your posts thus far. I'm better at typing people from photos and videos though, I have learned.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@_Animal_
What would you type me based on my photos, lol? I think you've seen some, actually. :tongue:


----------



## Animal

Kink said:


> @_Animal_
> What would you type me based on my photos, lol? I think you've seen some, actually. :tongue:


6 or 9.


----------



## galactic collision

@Animal Now I'm curious. Photos of me here. What would you put me down as just based on my selfies? (Or this song I wrote)


----------



## Animal

justforthespark said:


> @_Animal_ Now I'm curious. Photos of me here. What would you put me down as just based on my selfies? (Or this song I wrote)


I will think this over and respond once I have something to say. I can't really "type on command" - you'll notice from the other threads - things click for me or they don't. but I'll go through them and sit on it and see if something pops into mind. 

Excited to hear song!

I had noticed @_The Typeless Wonder_ around forum - because 1. who could miss that user name? and 2. some of his posts stood out to me as 4ish. I don't remember when or where. But that name is like a double dare.. hahaa. As soon as I saw it I wanted to solve the mystery. So I've been percolating for a while.

Edit: @_justforthespark_
Ahh I love your voice <3


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> 6 or 9.


Oh, boring. Lol.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Ooo, I kind of want a photo typing too, just to confirm. Though, I'd need to take pictures, and @Animal here already typed me as a Six (then I went and "found out" I'm a Nine....). Still sounds cool.



PS How does photo typing work? Video is one thing, you can look at body language, listen to tone of voice and such, but a still photo? Is there a method or is it more of a 'vibe' kind of thing?


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Animal said:


> I had noticed @_The Typeless Wonder_ around forum - because 1. who could miss that user name? and 2. some of his posts stood out to me as 4ish. I don't remember when or where. But that name is like a double dare.. hahaa. As soon as I saw it I wanted to solve the mystery. So I've been percolating for a while.


My name exists solely to taunt the community. I have good reasons for not currently typing as 4 despite appearances, though. Can go through them as necessary.


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> My name exists solely to taunt the community. I have good reasons for not currently typing as 4 despite appearances, though. Can go through them as necessary.


I'd be curious to hear 

I'm not attached to any typing for you. Far from it. JUst figured I'd share the vibe because you were posting on this thread.


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Ooo, I kind of want a photo typing too, just to confirm. Though, I'd need to take pictures, and @_Animal_ here already typed me as a Six (then I went and "found out" I'm a Nine....). Still sounds cool.


Haha sorry. When was that? Did you have another user name?
I've refined my thinking about enneagram a lot over time. I'm not really typing people from threads any more. I do much better with interaction and body language. Photos, videos, or conversation with immediate reactions etc. I also can't type on command (even my own command) so I have stopped trying to push myself to do typing threads. 
And, besides that, I'm wiling to be wrong.  




> PS How does photo typing work? Video is one thing, you can look at body language, listen to tone of voice and such, but a still photo? Is there a method or is it more of a 'vibe' kind of thing?


I've realized over time that when I get a vibe off a photo or video, it usually ends up being right. If someone ASKS me to do it though, that's typing on command - so I can be wrong if I try to force myself to come up with something. I have to just "feel it" and let it percolate for a while.

Feel free to send me photos and I'll tell you what I see or feel, if anything.

Preferably multiple photos.

I can be wrong too.

Oh, you asked if it is a method.. there is a method to my madness but words are not my forté.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Animal said:


> Haha sorry. When was that? Did you have another user name?
> I've refined my thinking about enneagram a lot over time. I'm not really typing people from threads any more. I do much better with interaction and body language. Photos, videos, or conversation with immediate reactions etc. I also can't type on command (even my own command) so I have stopped trying to push myself to do typing threads.
> And, besides that, I'm wiling to be wrong.
> -----
> 
> I've realized over time that when I get a vibe off a photo or video, it usually ends up being right. If someone ASKS me to do it though, that's typing on command - so I can be wrong if I try to force myself to come up with something. I have to just "feel it" and let it percolate for a while.
> 
> Feel free to send me photos and I'll tell you what I see or feel, if anything.
> 
> Preferably multiple photos.
> 
> I can be wrong too.
> 
> Oh, you asked if it is a method.. there is a method to my madness but words are not my forté.


A thread a while ago, and I did have the same username. Nah, no need to apologize. I was probably giving a different feel/focusing on different things when I wrote anyway. I bet if I did a thread now it would be still different. 

Cool stuff on the photo typing. I'll see if I can get around to trying it out, and maybe you'll see something.


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> A thread a while ago, and I did have the same username. Nah, no need to apologize. I was probably giving a different feel/focusing on different things when I wrote anyway. I bet if I did a thread now it would be still different.
> 
> Cool stuff on the photo typing. I'll see if I can get around to trying it out, and maybe you'll see something.


Oh I remember now! That was very recent so my ideas were the same as they are now.

The funny thing is, that song I linked "Imaginary" - is a line-to-9 song. So that might explain why I felt that song from your post. I've always called that song "Amy's line to 9." I guess at the time 9 wasn't really on the table but I just wasn't feeling 5.

Also I will confess, type 9 is not my specialty.


----------



## Paradigm

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Thanks. Four is currently the most likely suspect, but there are lots of reasons I haven't gone ahead and declared it, which I'm sure will come up in future posts.
> 
> Nine, no. Not even close.


Is shame a big deal for you? Do you have the image issues?

My first impression is that you seem fairly grounded, so I woulda said 9. Not for a silly reason like "can't decide type." You do seem fairly withdrawn, but not in the 5 disconnected way. 

Could be the so/sp stacking with 4; not a typical stacking, but refreshing to see around here.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Paradigm said:


> Is shame a big deal for you? Do you have the image issues?
> 
> My first impression is that you seem fairly grounded, so I woulda said 9. Not for a silly reason like "can't decide type." You do seem fairly withdrawn, but not in the 5 disconnected way.
> 
> Could be the so/sp stacking with 4; not a typical stacking, but refreshing to see around here.


and @Animal

That right there is one of the main reasons I don't type as 4. I _don't_ have image issues. I don't really identify with the image triad, and while I have a certain "shame", it's revolved around body image issues, generally for highly circumstantial environmental reasons.

I'd also point out that I lack any identification with my emotional states. I suppose we all are identified with our emotional patterns to some degree, hence our identification with enneagram types, but I'm speaking in terms of identifying with my emotions as a source of identity. No offense to 4s, but it seems a bit silly to me whenever I read about that. 

Also, despite having been abandoned literally, I didn't process it that way. I never once thought I was unworthy due to this; I didn't even register it as a sense of abandonment. I just got angry and never stopped feeling that way. I can't see myself being made "whole" through true love, nor do I feel as though my needs revolve around expressing myself in any profound way. Questions of authenticity and uniqueness do not bother me, for I am inherently so.

Those are some of the deeper psychological reasons I hesitate to type as 4, which is fitting in many other ways.

As to 9, it's been suggested by people many times online, and I understand why...but I doubt anyone would type me this way if they interacted with me irl for 5 minutes. I'll explain my reasoning.

First, the emotions. I am not identified with them, but I do have them, intensely, shifting with every thought. My mood is up and down throughout the day, strongly. It would be fair to refer to my natural state as emotional chaos, and the people closest to me can't stand to have me around because I ruin everyone's equilibrium. Weirdly, I didn't even realize this was a problem for many years. I just thought I was being myself and that it was largely harmless. "Numbness" just doesn't apply to me according to any possible interpretation.

I do not identify with "peace" at any level. I don't need to be peaceful. Actually as a value, I'd estimate it's one of the worst ones. To me, it's often a sad compromise of oneself, and I have limited patience for those who promote it, including many of the people I was raised with. I'm very willful, and not in the stubborn way associated with 9s, but in a more directly rebuffing way. If I were a 9, I'm not sure why I would have started so many fights within my own family unit, for instance, and why they were so much less comfortable with it than I was.

I mean I guess I could be a bipolar 9w8 or something. I do often have a sense of my own irrelevance to others. I do feel like I'm wasting my life piddling around, inertia does exist within me, and I am very withdrawn. I guess I _could_ be, though I'd wonder how it happened.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. If you can figure a way to work around them in ways that I haven't thought of, I'll listen.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

^ How about 8w9, Typeless?


Disclaimer: I am a complete fail typologist who only has a vague idea of what she's doing.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Double post....



kaleidoscope said:


> First, make sure you know how being Sp-last and So-last manifests itself. There's a lot of misconceptions out there, so this thread has a lot of excellent material and discussions on the matter. Fwiw, you don't seem Sp-second to me but it's hard for me to explain why. It'd help if you told me a bit more how you relate to the social and self-pres instinct.
> 
> ^^


That thread just threw off my variant stacking as well....according to this I'm so-last....which would mean I'm not sx-last. I could never relate to the sexual variant...but I've found I'm more 'social' than previously thought...I don't know.


----------



## Paradigm

The Typeless Wonder said:


> That right there is one of the main reasons I don't type as 4. I _don't_ have image issues. I don't really identify with the image triad, and while I have a certain "shame", it's revolved around body image issues, generally for highly circumstantial environmental reasons.


Then... honestly, I think we can rule out 2/3/4. If you don't identify with shame or image, then you miss the entire point of typing as such. It's possible you're unaware of such feelings within yourself, but you seem self-aware and knowledgeable. 



> Also, despite having been abandoned literally, I didn't process it that way. I never once thought I was unworthy due to this; I didn't even register it as a sense of abandonment. I just got angry and never stopped feeling that way. I can't see myself being made "whole" through true love, nor do I feel as though my needs revolve around expressing myself in any profound way. Questions of authenticity and uniqueness do not bother me, for I am inherently so.


This sounds really similar to how I would (probably) process things.

It has a very "it is what it is" vibe to it. It sounds like a 4w5-fixed 6 to me. That sort of "yeah I'm personable but srs don't affect me" thing that I have going on myself. And yeah, I know this could be projection, but in my understanding 6 is a very pragmatic type -- negative, sure, but also really capable of rolling with the punches, of solving any problem, of knowing what needs doing. As I mentioned in the other thread, that doesn't mean you _have_ to be doing those things all the time.

The 4w5 fix can give a harder "edge" to 6s, more individuality. It's hard for me to really separate the SOC-last from the 4 fix in me, in some cases. But I have no problem with going against the flow, of being outside the mainstream, of being who I am vs. who others say I should be. Obviously simplified, because going into detail would mean a huger post than I care to type right now, but the 4w5-fixed 6 is _not_, at all, what most people think of when they hear 6.

I wanted to quickly mention MBTI. I see you identify as IxxP. That's a great starting point! But have you ever delved into cognitive functions? I ask because I, too, identify as a Perceiver, except I'm called an INTJ. Why? Because INTJs lead with an introverted perceiving function (Ni), whereas IxxPs lead with an introverted _judging_ function (Ti / Fi). So the question is, which do you lead with? I almost want to suggest ISTJ (Si) for you, but I... don't... know why... 

Socionics has helped me a little with understanding this -- I do reject a large portion of socionics (especially most of their Reinin stuff), but they have this part right IMO. Couple of links for good measure:
Rationality and irrationality - Wikisocion
Temperament - Wikisocion
(Note: In Socionics, Ixxp = IxxJ and Ixxj = IxxP. J/P flip for introverts.)



> I mean I guess I could be a bipolar 9w8 or something. I do often have a sense of my own irrelevance to others. I do feel like I'm wasting my life piddling around, inertia does exist within me, and I am very withdrawn. I guess I _could_ be, though I'd wonder how it happened.


I'm sure you know this, but "withdrawn" doesn't mean introverted, unsociable, and laconic. I'm _all _of those things and far from a withdrawn core type. "Withdrawn" means you withdraw to solve problems and get your needs met (like, 4s will withdraw for their image, 9s for their inertia).


----------



## Purrfessor

@Paradigm

You know me (kind of well.. I quit LoL btw so sorry you may have to find a new dealer 

I can't stop using my brain and after my fight with schizophrenia, much pressure has been put off myself (overcoming delusions of grandeur does that). I have trouble getting up in the morning... Do you think I may be 7 dominant instead of 1? I love perfection but I think I love feeling good a lot more. Hmmmm


----------



## Paradigm

Stelliferous said:


> @_Paradigm_
> You know me (kind of well.. I quit LoL btw so sorry you may have to find a new dealer
> I can't stop using my brain and after my fight with schizophrenia, much pressure has been put off myself (overcoming delusions of grandeur does that). I have trouble getting up in the morning... Do you think I may be 7 dominant instead of 1? I love perfection but I think I love feeling good a lot more. Hmmmm


Drug dealer, nooooo
I'd say everyone ever prefers "feeling good" more :tongue: Do you have any more specific reasons to type as 7, or to not type as 1?


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> That right there is one of the main reasons I don't type as 4. I _don't_ have image issues. I don't really identify with the image triad, and while I have a certain "shame", it's revolved around body image issues, generally for highly circumstantial environmental reasons.
> 
> I'd also point out that I lack any identification with my emotional states. I suppose we all are identified with our emotional patterns to some degree, hence our identification with enneagram types, but I'm speaking in terms of identifying with my emotions as a source of identity. No offense to 4s, but it seems a bit silly to me whenever I read about that.
> 
> Also, despite having been abandoned literally, I didn't process it that way. I never once thought I was unworthy due to this; I didn't even register it as a sense of abandonment. I just got angry and never stopped feeling that way. I can't see myself being made "whole" through true love, nor do I feel as though my needs revolve around expressing myself in any profound way. Questions of authenticity and uniqueness do not bother me, for I am inherently so.
> 
> Those are some of the deeper psychological reasons I hesitate to type as 4, which is fitting in many other ways.


Haha. Yeah I can see why you don't type at 4 (or any other image). Maybe it's a fix. On impression, I would agree with @_Paradigm_ that if it's 4 fix, its 4w5.


Can you mention your reasons for not typing at 5, 6, 7, 8 or 1?


Fwiw I don't get 9 vibes, but I'm also terrible at picking out 9s except if I know them personally.


----------



## Purrfessor

Paradigm said:


> Drug dealer, nooooo
> I'd say everyone ever prefers "feeling good" more :tongue: Do you have any more specific reasons to type as 7, or to not type as 1?


It's just that it's a pretty big need. Maybe it's because I'm Fi dom.. but I need to feel good before I can actually do things. It's like first comes reward then comes action after I'm content for a bit. I'd say BOTH my type 1 drive and type 7 drive are equally strong. They combine in a weird way so I'm constantly motivated. Either by work or by play. I know for a fact my 2w3 is the lowest on the totem pole, now that I'm not codependent. I just feel MORE motivated by play than by work. But work doesn't drain me of energy and play does... Idk. I really don't know. I know 1 integrates to 7 when healthy.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Paradigm said:


> Then... honestly, I think we can rule out 2/3/4. If you don't identify with shame or image, then you miss the entire point of typing as such. It's possible you're unaware of such feelings within yourself, but you seem self-aware and knowledgeable.


Yeah. I feel the 4 LOUD AND CLEAR, but it's things like that that make me hesitate.



> It has a very "it is what it is" vibe to it. It sounds like a 4w5-fixed 6 to me. That sort of "yeah I'm personable but srs don't affect me" thing that I have going on myself. And yeah, I know this could be projection, but in my understanding 6 is a very pragmatic type -- negative, sure, but also really capable of rolling with the punches, of solving any problem, of knowing what needs doing. As I mentioned in the other thread, that doesn't mean you _have_ to be doing those things all the time.
> 
> The 4w5 fix can give a harder "edge" to 6s, more individuality. It's hard for me to really separate the SOC-last from the 4 fix in me, in some cases. But I have no problem with going against the flow, of being outside the mainstream, of being who I am vs. who others say I should be. Obviously simplified, because going into detail would mean a huger post than I care to type right now, but the 4w5-fixed 6 is _not_, at all, what most people think of when they hear 6.


Fair points, but one I have been through many times. See my response to Animal below for further details, but here I'll note that I actually did type this way for several months on another forum once, was angry that the type and it's issues had little relevance to my life, and after I read in depth I am frankly embarrassed that I ever typed that way. I don't think I'm a 6.



> I wanted to quickly mention MBTI. I see you identify as IxxP. That's a great starting point! But have you ever delved into cognitive functions? I ask because I, too, identify as a Perceiver, except I'm called an INTJ. Why? Because INTJs lead with an introverted perceiving function (Ni), whereas IxxPs lead with an introverted _judging_ function (Ti / Fi). So the question is, which do you lead with? I almost want to suggest ISTJ (Si) for you, but I... don't... know why...


I test as INTP. I'm sure about the I, the T, and the P, but will negotiate on T because there are elements of INFP I could relate to. So IxxP. I'm not an ISTJ. Not a J. Ever. I am THE STEREOTYPE of a Perceiver, and although I am generally willing to negotiate on these matters...alas. I have an explanation for what's truly messed up about my personal style. I know why I'm always 5 minutes late, why I do everything at the last minute, why I'm a total slob, why I'm chronically disorganized and chaotic. Why I never finish what I start. Why I have to keep all plans open till the last possible second. Etc. It's not just "kind of identify", it's OMG THAT'S ME. If the theory has any validity as a tool of self understanding, _at all_, I have to rule myself some sort of P.

BUT. No, you're not the first person to say that to me. Yeah, I should get into it. Do you know some useful people on those forums who'd help me look over a typing thread?



> Socionics has helped me a little with understanding this -- I do reject a large portion of socionics (especially most of their Reinin stuff), but they have this part right IMO. Couple of links for good measure:
> Rationality and irrationality - Wikisocion
> Temperament - Wikisocion
> (Note: In Socionics, Ixxp = IxxJ and Ixxj = IxxP. J/P flip for introverts.)


Will get to it!



> I'm sure you know this, but "withdrawn" doesn't mean introverted, unsociable, and laconic. I'm _all _of those things and far from a withdrawn core type. "Withdrawn" means you withdraw to solve problems and get your needs met (like, 4s will withdraw for their image, 9s for their inertia).


I'd figure it's both in my case.



Animal said:


> Haha. Yeah I can see why you don't type at 4 (or any other image). Maybe it's a fix. On impression, I would agree with @_Paradigm_ that if it's 4 fix, its 4w5.
> 
> Can you mention your reasons for not typing at 5, 6, 7, 8 or 1?


This will be a long discussion. OK, I'll go through briefly. This will be limited simply in interests of time, though trust me, I could write a 20 page paper on each type.

Type 5. Here the problem is with detachment. Now I'm generally seen as reserved and detached by others, but emotionally speaking, well, my emotions tend to be very immediate. Even if I freeze up or otherwise don't express them. I don't relate to "gathering knowledge". I relate to science, discovery, curiosity and the like, but as I'm coming to understand, this is quite a different matter from gathering, compartmentalizing, and storing information as a defense mechanism.

Type 6. I'll refer you to the longish post I wrote earlier. I know it's a prime suspect for the untypeable, but I did look into it in some depth and just can't relate on a deeper level. So, I'll quote at length:


* *






> - I am not hypervigilant. I've checked myself for this. I'm totally self-absorbed and lost in my own world. I was assaulted recently because I walked through a part of town late at night without a second thought. I wasn't defying any fears in doing so, I just felt like walking home that way. I was oblivious, and this is not atypical of me. I don't watch my environment, and I especially don't watch other people. I don't care about them.
> 
> - I don't care what others are up to. I've seen 6s IRL do this; they get some sort of "sign" that someone doesn't really mean what they say and spend hours wondering what they really meant. In the end, they inevitably come to the conclusion that the other person is angry at them and has it in for them, and this is almost never substantiated by the reality. Moreover, they don't tend to get reality checks. For me it's more like...out of sight, out of mind. I don't care what anyone really meant. People can just go away and be pissed off. If I'm concerned, I tend to ask directly if there's anything I can do.
> 
> - I have inner guidance. Sure, I don't always know what I want in life, but I've tended to lead my life by the "four i's": inspiration, impulse, intuition, and instinct. (Rather, I THINK I have inner guidance...I am coming to realize I've basically made a whole lot of bad decisions, but that doesn't stop me from thinking I know best anyway). I am getting the distinct sense that most 6s lack this sense. It's their journey in life to learn to use this stuff.
> 
> - I don't feel ambivalent toward my inner world, pleasure, and/or aggressive impulses. Maitri and Palmer both talk about how 6s tend to fear this aspect of themselves. I've seen it--a 6 friend of mine once said to me, "When dogs start whining, it makes me sadistic. And that really scares me!" I thought, How can that scare you?? It's just a feeling! I don't really feel like anything inside me is "forbidden", I don't have to act on a sadistic impulse if I don't want to.
> 
> - I don't identify with "projection" or "splitting" as Chestnut writes. I know what comes from me. For example, most of the aggressive impulses I may feel come from me thinking other people are crappy, not that they are out to get me. Damned if I know their motivations. Good guys vs bad guys, black vs white is...an insult to the reality of a given situation, to say the least ("splitting"). I'm painfully more likely to introject than project. I'm more likely to consider us all "bad guys" in a dark and shady world than actually divide anything into 2 groups. I tend to see the whole and unity (good argument for 9 I suppose)
> 
> - I don't relate to "doubting" myself. Oh, I have self-doubts around my own personality, sure, but not about my abilities to handle things, or any particular sense that I will "crumble". I don't think I'll do something so bad one day that I'll be punished, which seems to be a common fear to the type. I'm in control of what I do/don't do. With the possible exception of the enneagram, I over-thinking has never once been my problem.
> 
> - I have limited orientation to authority. Yes, I can complain about who did what to me back when. But as authority relates to me personally, unless they have done something to harm me (and they honestly haven't), my first impulse is to ignore and do what I wanted to do anyway. It is seldom I will either rebel OR comply. I just follow my own path.
> 
> - I feel insulted to think of myself as an "every man" or that I might possibly need the protection or guidance of someone stronger or something larger or more stable, despite the fact that this would constitute good sense.





Type 7. I can't relate to avoiding pain. Life is filled with pain, particularly mine, and I dwell in it. Too much. Far too much. I've been over-serious all my life, not that a 7 can't be serious, but most wouldn't be habitually told they're "too serious". I'm generally observed to be "negative" and "pessimistic" which would be other odd monikers to assign a 7. I don't see myself as a happy person (and neither do most others, for reference, so it's not just a secret thing going on inside my head), and "positive thinking" really, REALLY pisses me off. I guess we're getting into "behaviors" territory here, which is why I've been examining this very closely because there are places where it makes a LOT of sense....but I'd be a hella weird sort of 7.

Type 8: I suppose this is a behavioral thing again, but feedback from others. Most people will comment embarrassingly on my utter lack of self-confidence and tell me I need to learn to "be more confident / outgoing / assertive / etc." Aren't 8s the type that exude self-confidence and self-assertion? So not me. I don't consider myself aggressive in most contexts, I'm not expansive, and I certainly don't see myself as more powerful than others. Also, survival of the fittest is social Darwinist bullshit in my opinion, so I don't really get the mindset here. I am entirely too aware of my own pain and other non-8ish emotions.

Type 1: Here, I don't relate to the postponement of pleasure or the sense that I have to earn it. I have trouble saying No to myself and lack discipline. All the time. And I'm good with that. There is no ideal way, "right" way, good way, etc. There are just different ways, and to each his own. God made the world inherently perfect, and it's just humans that screw it up. And it's not really my job to make them stop. I don't have any sense of how anything "ought" to be. I don't want to change anyone. I just bitch and moan. 

I think it is between 8 and 1 for the gut fix, though.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> ^ How about 8w9, Typeless?
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: I am a complete fail typologist who only has a vague idea of what she's doing.


What rationale? See post above.


----------



## mushr00m

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Type 1: Here, I don't relate to the postponement of pleasure or the sense that I have to earn it. I have trouble saying No to myself and lack discipline. All the time. And I'm good with that. There is no ideal way, "right" way, good way, etc. There are just different ways, and to each his own. God made the world inherently perfect, and it's just humans that screw it up. And it's not really my job to make them stop. I don't have any sense of how anything "ought" to be. I don't want to change anyone. I just bitch and moan.
> 
> I think it is between 8 and 1 for the gut fix, though.


what about 1w9... 

perhaps you are more difficult to type because you appear quite balanced, not so unhealthy in your worldview that any fixation is deeply entrenched. just a thought.


----------



## Golden Rose

We still haven't managed to figure out my second instinct but I can wait. I'll sleep on it


----------



## Animal

Karma said:


> We still haven't managed to figure out my second instinct but I can wait. I'll sleep on it


Send me photos


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Type 5. Here the problem is with detachment. Now I'm generally seen as reserved and detached by others, but emotionally speaking, well, my emotions tend to be very immediate. Even if I freeze up or otherwise don't express them. I don't relate to "gathering knowledge". I relate to science, discovery, curiosity and the like, but as I'm coming to understand, this is quite a different matter from gathering, compartmentalizing, and storing information as a defense mechanism.



My rambles on 5s and 6s and knowledge collecting, fwiw.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...9-signs-you-may-mistyped-25.html#post11425090


More soon


----------



## DomNapoleon

@Animal
what do you think of my instincts? :crazy:
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/136879-instincts.html


----------



## Animal

Mandraque said:


> @_Animal_
> what do you think of my instincts? :crazy:
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/136879-instincts.html


Going by what I know of you already, I'd say Sp-last is accurate. As for which is stronger, Sx or So, im not sure. I sometimes run into this problem with Sp-last sixes for some reason.

Is there a problem with Sx/So typing?


----------



## DomNapoleon

Animal said:


> Going by what I know of you already, I'd say Sp-last is accurate. As for which is stronger, Sx or So, im not sure. I sometimes run into this problem with Sp-last sixes for some reason.
> 
> Is there a problem with Sx/So typing?


I'm still indecisive. Sx/So seems to fit me. The problem is that I am not so that aggressive or blunt like most Sx 6s.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

mushr00m said:


> what about 1w9...
> 
> perhaps you are more difficult to type because you appear quite balanced, not so unhealthy in your worldview that any fixation is deeply entrenched. just a thought.


I'm afraid I'm not magically healthy. I'd consider myself a reasonable person, but believe me, I have issues! But most of it seems to be 4ish and 5ish, yet when I examine the cores, those don't seem to be psychologically accurate.

Care to spin a case for 1w9? I'd think that even with a 9-wing, most 1s would have principles, or ideals of perfection or something "better", and that it has to be worked for to earn it. The parts of 1 I identify with are more about getting anal with details and being critical of things (though without imposing my viewpoint. Again, just bitching and moaning). I also don't feel the need to be "good". But I suppose it's possible.


----------



## mushr00m

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I'm afraid I'm not magically healthy. I'd consider myself a reasonable person, but believe me, I have issues! But most of it seems to be 4ish and 5ish, yet when I examine the cores, those don't seem to be psychologically accurate.Care to spin a case for 1w9? I'd think that even with a 9-wing, most 1s would have principles, or ideals of perfection or something "better", and that it has to be worked for to earn it. The parts of 1 I identify with are more about getting anal with details and being critical of things (though without imposing my viewpoint. Again, just bitching and moaning). I also don't feel the need to be "good". But I suppose it's possible.


Oh okay. well, I just meant that your worldview doesn't seem overtly fixed in a highly biased way. Of course, no-one is perfect :happy: I can see the 4w5 fix, you remind me a little of paradigm actually in how her 4w5 fix presents itself. I think the need to be good is not necessarily related to 1 but more 6, what 'good' means is interpretated differently from person to person though. I say 6 because they may want to be good to avoid getting into trouble. I can't really explain the 1w9 in literal terms, I can't really see 8 or 9 though but what you mentioned just now points to some 1ish sentiments, 1w9 tends to be a more detached 1, less likely to intrude in others lives to correct them than the 1w2.


----------



## Animal

Mandraque said:


> I'm still indecisive. Sx/So seems to fit me. The problem is that I am not so that aggressive or blunt like most Sx 6s.


What are Social sixes like, by comparison?


----------



## DomNapoleon

Animal said:


> What are Social sixes like, by comparison?


Social 6s should be more friendly, compassionate, and likable. But I also don't relate that much to that. Some people call me the pitbull :laughing: @Swordsman of Mana should know much more about social 6s.


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> trust me, I could write a 20 page paper on each type


Care to write a longer essay on why you don't relate to type 5?

:ninja:


----------



## Animal

Mandraque said:


> Social 6s should be more friendly, compassionate, and likable. But I also don't relate that much to that. Some people call me the pitbull :laughing: @_Swordsman of Mana_ should know much more about social 6s.


My good friend is a social six.. he's a bitch but everyone loves him. Would that I had such powers..


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Animal said:


> Care to write a longer essay on why you don't relate to type 5?


I _do_ relate to type 5, that's just the thing. But I'm signing off for now. I should have some free time tomorrow morning, so I'll get back to you with a novella sometime then.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Mandraque said:


> Social 6s should be more friendly, compassionate, and likable. But I also don't relate that much to that. Some people call me the pitbull :laughing: @Swordsman of Mana should know much more about social 6s.


One prominent author--and I can't remember who wrote this, but I found the description--noted the following:


> Social Sixes are often housed in a larger, more aggressive build than Warm Sixes. If Warm Sixes are Chihuahuas, Social Sixes are Bulldogs. Social Sixes often mistake themselves for Eights because they can be in touch with their anger and can be aggressive. Football lineman, military, firemen and police organizations are filled with social Sixes. Guys you can trust in the foxhole.


Doesn't sound all like nicey-niceness according to this guy.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

The Typeless Wonder said:


> What rationale? See post above.


My rationale is more this post:

* *







The Typeless Wonder said:


> Also, despite having been abandoned literally, I didn't process it that way. I never once thought I was unworthy due to this; I didn't even register it as a sense of abandonment.* I just got angry and never stopped feeling that way.* I can't see myself being made "whole" through true love, nor do I feel as though my needs revolve around expressing myself in any profound way. Questions of authenticity and uniqueness do not bother me, for I am inherently so.
> 
> Those are some of the deeper psychological reasons I hesitate to type as 4, which is fitting in many other ways.
> 
> As to 9, it's been suggested by people many times online, and I understand why...but I doubt anyone would type me this way if they interacted with me irl for 5 minutes. I'll explain my reasoning.
> 
> First, the emotions. I am not identified with them, but I do have them, intensely, shifting with every thought. My mood is up and down throughout the day, strongly. It would be fair to refer to my natural state as emotional chaos, and the people closest to me can't stand to have me around because I ruin everyone's equilibrium. Weirdly, I didn't even realize this was a problem for many years. I just thought I was being myself and that it was largely harmless. "Numbness" just doesn't apply to me according to any possible interpretation.
> 
> *I do not identify with "peace" at any level. I don't need to be peaceful. Actually as a value, I'd estimate it's one of the worst ones. To me, it's often a sad compromise of oneself, and I have limited patience for those who promote it, including many of the people I was raised with. I'm very willful, and not in the stubborn way associated with 9s, but in a more directly rebuffing way. If I were a 9, I'm not sure why I would have started so many fights within my own family unit, for instance, and why they were so much less comfortable with it than I was.*
> 
> I mean I guess I could be a bipolar 9w8 or something. I do often have a sense of my own irrelevance to others. I do feel like I'm wasting my life piddling around, inertia does exist within me, and I am very withdrawn. I guess I _could_ be, though I'd wonder how it happened.
> 
> Anyway, those are my thoughts. If you can figure a way to work around them in ways that I haven't thought of, I'll listen.





 

I know, it's bad reasoning, but these kind of reactions and attitudes sound Eightish to me, though I can definitely see the argument for Six. All Eights have an aggressive element to them, but from what I've read, a Nine-wing tempers it a little, makes it more defensive rather than offensive, still aggressive but a quieter kind of power. 

Might just be a fix, especially seeing as I'm admittedly basing it on one post.


----------



## Arya

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Yeah. I feel the 4 LOUD AND CLEAR, but it's things like that that make me hesitate.
> 
> 
> Fair points, but one I have been through many times. See my response to Animal below for further details, but here I'll note that I actually did type this way for several months on another forum once, was angry that the type and it's issues had little relevance to my life, and after I read in depth I am frankly embarrassed that I ever typed that way. I don't think I'm a 6.
> 
> 
> I test as INTP. I'm sure about the I, the T, and the P, but will negotiate on T because there are elements of INFP I could relate to. So IxxP. I'm not an ISTJ. Not a J. Ever. I am THE STEREOTYPE of a Perceiver, and although I am generally willing to negotiate on these matters...alas. I have an explanation for what's truly messed up about my personal style. I know why I'm always 5 minutes late, why I do everything at the last minute, why I'm a total slob, why I'm chronically disorganized and chaotic. Why I never finish what I start. Why I have to keep all plans open till the last possible second. Etc. It's not just "kind of identify", it's OMG THAT'S ME. If the theory has any validity as a tool of self understanding, _at all_, I have to rule myself some sort of P.
> 
> BUT. No, you're not the first person to say that to me. Yeah, I should get into it. Do you know some useful people on those forums who'd help me look over a typing thread?
> 
> 
> Will get to it!
> 
> 
> I'd figure it's both in my case.
> 
> 
> This will be a long discussion. OK, I'll go through briefly. This will be limited simply in interests of time, though trust me, I could write a 20 page paper on each type.
> 
> Type 5. Here the problem is with detachment. Now I'm generally seen as reserved and detached by others, but emotionally speaking, well, my emotions tend to be very immediate. Even if I freeze up or otherwise don't express them. I don't relate to "gathering knowledge". I relate to science, discovery, curiosity and the like, but as I'm coming to understand, this is quite a different matter from gathering, compartmentalizing, and storing information as a defense mechanism.
> 
> Type 6. I'll refer you to the longish post I wrote earlier. I know it's a prime suspect for the untypeable, but I did look into it in some depth and just can't relate on a deeper level. So, I'll quote at length:
> 
> 
> 
> Type 7. I can't relate to avoiding pain. Life is filled with pain, particularly mine, and I dwell in it. Too much. Far too much. I've been over-serious all my life, not that a 7 can't be serious, but most wouldn't be habitually told they're "too serious". I'm generally observed to be "negative" and "pessimistic" which would be other odd monikers to assign a 7. I don't see myself as a happy person (and neither do most others, for reference, so it's not just a secret thing going on inside my head), and "positive thinking" really, REALLY pisses me off. I guess we're getting into "behaviors" territory here, which is why I've been examining this very closely because there are places where it makes a LOT of sense....but I'd be a hella weird sort of 7.
> 
> Type 8: I suppose this is a behavioral thing again, but feedback from others. Most people will comment embarrassingly on my utter lack of self-confidence and tell me I need to learn to "be more confident / outgoing / assertive / etc." Aren't 8s the type that exude self-confidence and self-assertion? So not me. I don't consider myself aggressive in most contexts, I'm not expansive, and I certainly don't see myself as more powerful than others. Also, survival of the fittest is social Darwinist bullshit in my opinion, so I don't really get the mindset here. I am entirely too aware of my own pain and other non-8ish emotions.
> 
> Type 1: Here, I don't relate to the postponement of pleasure or the sense that I have to earn it. I have trouble saying No to myself and lack discipline. All the time. And I'm good with that. There is no ideal way, "right" way, good way, etc. There are just different ways, and to each his own. God made the world inherently perfect, and it's just humans that screw it up. And it's not really my job to make them stop. I don't have any sense of how anything "ought" to be. I don't want to change anyone. I just bitch and moan.
> 
> I think it is between 8 and 1 for the gut fix, though.


No clue what your type is, but as a six I can tell you that I don't relate to most of those things all that much either:

- I am not hypervigilant. I've checked myself for this. I'm totally self-absorbed and lost in my own world. I was assaulted recently because I walked through a part of town late at night without a second thought. I wasn't defying any fears in doing so, I just felt like walking home that way. I was oblivious, and this is not atypical of me. I don't watch my environment, and I especially don't watch other people. I don't care about them. *-Sixes don't have PTSD. I can't say I care much about people either unless I have a particular reason to care. Not to mention I'm an INTP so obliviousness comes naturally to me. *

- I don't care what others are up to. I've seen 6s IRL do this; they get some sort of "sign" that someone doesn't really mean what they say and spend hours wondering what they really meant. In the end, they inevitably come to the conclusion that the other person is angry at them and has it in for them, and this is almost never substantiated by the reality. Moreover, they don't tend to get reality checks. For me it's more like...out of sight, out of mind. I don't care what anyone really meant. People can just go away and be pissed off. If I'm concerned, I tend to ask directly if there's anything I can do.*I tend to be straight up and blunt with people if I feel like they're being unclear, but I don't expect people to be angry with me because people hardly ever are anyways. *

- I have inner guidance. Sure, I don't always know what I want in life, but I've tended to lead my life by the "four i's": inspiration, impulse, intuition, and instinct. (Rather, I THINK I have inner guidance...I am coming to realize I've basically made a whole lot of bad decisions, but that doesn't stop me from thinking I know best anyway). I am getting the distinct sense that most 6s lack this sense. It's their journey in life to learn to use this stuff. *I know a lot of sixes who trust themselves over anything else and think they know best. Super ego type after all. It's safer to trust yourself than others.*

- I don't feel ambivalent toward my inner world, pleasure, and/or aggressive impulses. Maitri and Palmer both talk about how 6s tend to fear this aspect of themselves. I've seen it--a 6 friend of mine once said to me, "When dogs start whining, it makes me sadistic. And that really scares me!" I thought, How can that scare you?? It's just a feeling! I don't really feel like anything inside me is "forbidden", I don't have to act on a sadistic impulse if I don't want to. *Yeah I don't understand why any feeling would be forbidden either. I have very good control over my feelings. They don't scare me. Plus I'm Ti dom, so my inner world is where I am most comfortable.*

- I don't identify with "projection" or "splitting" as Chestnut writes. I know what comes from me. For example, most of the aggressive impulses I may feel come from me thinking other people are crappy, not that they are out to get me. Damned if I know their motivations. Good guys vs bad guys, black vs white is...an insult to the reality of a given situation, to say the least ("splitting"). I'm painfully more likely to introject than project. I'm more likely to consider us all "bad guys" in a dark and shady world than actually divide anything into 2 groups. I tend to see the whole and unity (good argument for 9 I suppose) *I 100% agree with all of that. But I think most sixes consider everyone to be "bad guys" There is no such thing as the good guy camp considering we are uncertain about everyone. And yeah that is an insult to the typical reality, but I haven't really met any sixes like that so....*

- I don't relate to "doubting" myself. Oh, I have self-doubts around my own personality, sure, but not about my abilities to handle things, or any particular sense that I will "crumble". I don't think I'll do something so bad one day that I'll be punished, which seems to be a common fear to the type. I'm in control of what I do/don't do. With the possible exception of the enneagram, I over-thinking has never once been my problem. *So bad we'll be punished? huh? how does this relate to six? Most sixes don't seem to have any big deal with whether they are bad or good. sounds like one-ish behavior. I consider myself in control of what I do/don't, but that doesn't change the fact that unknown variables could be thrown in at any time and destroy things for me.*

- I have limited orientation to authority. Yes, I can complain about who did what to me back when. But as authority relates to me personally, unless they have done something to harm me (and they honestly haven't), my first impulse is to ignore and do what I wanted to do anyway. It is seldom I will either rebel OR comply. I just follow my own path. *Yeah I'd say the same honestly. I don't think in terms of rebel. why rebel unless it's the logical thing to do?*

- I feel insulted to think of myself as an "every man" or that I might possibly need the protection or guidance of someone stronger or something larger or more stable, despite the fact that this would constitute good sense. *Actually many sixes feel this way. They want to be strong in and of themselves. They have a pride issue with being seen as weak. *


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Type 7. *I can't relate to avoiding pain*. Life is filled with pain, particularly mine, and I dwell in it. Too much. Far too much.* I've been over-serious all my life, not that a 7 can't be serious, but most wouldn't be habitually told they're "too serious". I'm generally observed to be "negative" and "pessimistic"* which would be other odd monikers to assign a 7. *I don't see myself as a happy person (and neither do most others, for reference, so it's not just a secret thing going on inside my head), and "positive thinking" really, REALLY pisses me off*. I guess we're getting into "behaviors" territory here, which is why I've been examining this very closely because there are places where it makes a LOT of sense....but I'd be a hella weird sort of 7.


Those are exactly the things that kept me from typing at 7 because I would never describe myself as one who -
1) avoids pain
2) is happy 24*7
3) is not serious
4) positive (usable interchangeably with the following: optimistic, hopeful, cheerful)

I think you've already seen on the 7 forum the much I've written about how 7s being seen as a 'happy type' is a bunch of bullshit. But then, truth be told, enneagram isn't about what you can see in yourself all too clearly. If that was the case we wouldn't need months, or even other people, to figure it out and really not go wrong with it. 

Part of the problem is with definitions. I always equated happiness with euphoria. I still do. The only difference between now and then is that I understand how what I call a certain feeling is not how others (a majority) understand it, which leads to not being able to take enneagram descriptions and motivations for what they really mean (the interpretation of the author, which unless explicitly clarified should be the same as the meaning provided in dictionaries. XD /Ti). 

So, like I said, I don't think myself happy until I'm euphoric. I need something to be high on - a new song, a new movie, a new activity, a new game, a new person, etc., the list is endless. But it is impossible to constantly be able to find things that make you high, and with each turn the high you get out of the same activity diminishes, until you are left completely under-aroused and dissatisfied; at which point you will likely abandon that thing and look for the next thing. This is gluttony and I am very, very gluttonous. See if you can relate to this and think along these lines about what you have done in your life. 

Secondly, the time that I spend not indulging in something I get high on, which is a significant chunk of my life, is when I wouldn't describe myself as happy. Like right now. I have all the time in the world. I have all my needs met. I feel none of the pressures that my peers are facing right now - having to work long hours, not getting that promotion you so deserve, having to get married, tend to the kids, tend to finances, etc. - and this is really enviable. But am I happy? The answer is 'no, I'm not' because I still don't have what I want and I always want what I want. What I have right now is a state of not having what I don't want; which makes me feel neutral. Not sad, coz I ain't on the verge of death or bound to a life of indentured servitude, and not happy either because I am still not enjoying the fuck out of life, which is what I ideally want to be doing. 

I am unemotional yet not unemotional. I am emotional only with respect to myself. Anything else and I mostly remain unfazed. I mean, hey, if it's not happening to me, or not affecting me, why the fuck should I care? XD 

I think your problem may be due to not understanding things the way they were meant to be understood - which was my problem too. 

Just consider it a suggestion when looking at descriptions. 

I still won't jump into typing you although I think you are very likely either 4 or 7.


----------



## Paradigm

Just popping in ( @_The Typeless Wonder_), before breakfast and before replying directly, to say I _strongly _agree with Arya's post, except for very minor things. Which things, you ask?



Arya said:


> - I don't relate to "doubting" myself. Oh, I have self-doubts around my own personality, sure, but not about my abilities to handle things, or any particular sense that I will "crumble". I don't think I'll do something so bad one day that I'll be punished, which seems to be a common fear to the type.


I doubt myself, and I doubt my decisions, but I don't doubt my capability much. If my capability isn't up to the task, then I'm capable of asking for help, so everything will work out okay anyway. Doesn't mean I won't be anxious about it -- but I've always been sensitive to my personal anxiety.

Also, lol "one day I'll be punished," wut. Not relateable at all.



> - I feel insulted to think of myself as an "every man" or that I might possibly need the protection or guidance of someone stronger or something larger or more stable, despite the fact that this would constitute good sense.


I am the everyman. But (and HUGE but) I'm coming at this from the POV of being thought of as "other." Being disabled, the population has a hard time accepting I'm human or something. So, yeah, I'm not surprised that "real everymen" would take offense, but it's not my POV.

However, totally agree about the whole thing of needing "someone stronger." I mean, that's a joke, right? That's _incredibly_ insulting to have someone assume that about me. I am my own person, I have my own strengths, and I stand on my own. I've never had role models or beliefs in spirituality or followed any code. I am my own code.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> What are Social sixes like, by comparison?


Social 6's theme is "Duty". They have a strong desire to belong and seek out societal structures to contribute to, typically preferring an explicit social hierarchy with clear rules and positions of authority. at their best, they are responsible, productive, "pillars of society". at their worst, they are conformist, bureaucratic and sneaky. So/Sp 6 is a little more cunning and political while So/Sx 6 can have a more aggressive edge and a more "wolf pack" mentality. 
perhaps the best exemplar of Social 6 I can think of is Captain America.


----------



## Arya

Paradigm said:


> Just popping in ( @_The Typeless Wonder_), before breakfast and before replying directly, to say I _strongly _agree with Arya's post, except for very minor things. Which things, you ask?
> 
> 
> I doubt myself, and I doubt my decisions, but I don't doubt my capability much. If my capability isn't up to the task, then I'm capable of asking for help, so everything will work out okay anyway. Doesn't mean I won't be anxious about it -- but I've always been sensitive to my personal anxiety.
> 
> Also, lol "one day I'll be punished," wut. Not relateable at all.
> 
> 
> I am the everyman. But (and HUGE but) I'm coming at this from the POV of being thought of as "other." Being disabled, the population has a hard time accepting I'm human or something. So, yeah, I'm not surprised that "real everymen" would take offense, but it's not my POV.
> 
> However, totally agree about the whole thing of needing "someone stronger." I mean, that's a joke, right? That's _incredibly_ insulting to have someone assume that about me. I am my own person, I have my own strengths, and I stand on my own. I've never had role models or beliefs in spirituality or followed any code. I am my own code.


Yeah actually that's a good distinction. I doubt my decisions far more than my capability. But I'll also add that I only follow my own decisions in general. I still trust them more, because unlike other people, I actually bother to research stuff out properly, hence why I'd rather follow my own advice even to my own detriment.


----------



## Arya

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Ooo, I kind of want a photo typing too, just to confirm. Though, I'd need to take pictures, and @_Animal_ here already typed me as a Six (then I went and "found out" I'm a Nine....). Still sounds cool.
> 
> 
> 
> PS How does photo typing work? Video is one thing, you can look at body language, listen to tone of voice and such, but a still photo? Is there a method or is it more of a 'vibe' kind of thing?


 @Animal and I have been working on this together somewhat and we both generally agree, so I know we're picking up on something, but I haven't quite determined exactly how to make guidelines yet. It's a work in process, and I won't pretend that I have it completely accurate. I like how she says she does it from vibes and I'm like I know there is more than that going on. But once I pin down exactly what I'm seeing I'll have to write it all out for her and anyone else interested.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

Challenge my type.


----------



## Purrfessor

I'm finally removing the negative traits of my tritype and applying healthy traits. I think a large part of what makes any E type negative is codependency. With my 2 fix, I had been codependent on helping others and reaping that juicy pride reward from their souls. Delicious, yes, but because I was starving. I no longer want that pride because the pride isn't everlasting/self-sustaining without essentially brainwashing another. I'm just sick of using others in that way. I understand now why 2 integrates to 4. I have that self sustain by valuing myself as an individual. 

As as for my 7 (maybe fix maybe dom), I stopped looking for that perfect source of pleasure in another or in a singular thing like a video game (1 disintegration) and opened my eyes to EVERYTHING (5 integration). I don't think healthy 7s should become monogamous. Settling down breeds disappointment for 7s. 

And my 1 (again maybe fix maybe dom), this was affected greatly by my schizophrenia overcoming. Without delusions of grandeur I can clearly see my limitations. I no longer take an identity as a person who is in charge of changing the world (disintegrate to 4). Instead, I'm simply overjoyed by the pursuit itself of creating perfection. It is the patient nature and finished product that I value. It is so very savory. 

Remove my codependency of delusions of grandeur, pride reassurance, and expecting too much pleasure from a singular person, place, or thing - and I'm left with independence. And I wonder what it is I crave more: pleasure and experience or savory perfection? Because certainly it is not a craving for altruism. Fuck that. That's not something I crave but rather something that just pops up in my life and happens.


----------



## Paradigm

The Typeless Wonder said:


> was angry that the type and it's issues had little relevance to my life, and after I read in depth I am frankly embarrassed that I ever typed that way.


I don't remember who it was -- I think a retired member -- but someone said I'm a 6 without "flaming" 6 issues. The online community vastly over-emphasizes parts of several types, and there's a huge lack of average people who don't have obvious issues.

I suspect you're one of those people without flaming core issues. Which reminds me of a question, do you even want to be typed?



> I test as INTP. I'm sure about the I, the T, and the P, but will negotiate on T because there are elements of INFP I could relate to. So IxxP. I'm not an ISTJ. Not a J. Ever. I am THE STEREOTYPE of a Perceiver, and although I am generally willing to negotiate on these matters...alas. I have an explanation for what's truly messed up about my personal style. I know why I'm always 5 minutes late, why I do everything at the last minute, why I'm a total slob, why I'm chronically disorganized and chaotic. Why I never finish what I start. Why I have to keep all plans open till the last possible second. Etc. It's not just "kind of identify", it's OMG THAT'S ME. If the theory has any validity as a tool of self understanding, _at all_, I have to rule myself some sort of P.
> BUT. No, you're not the first person to say that to me. Yeah, I should get into it. Do you know some useful people on those forums who'd help me look over a typing thread?


I have to say... reading this kind of annoyed me, because it felt like you didn't actually read what I wrote.

Yes. I have those behaviors, too. I test as INFP constantly, and as _80% Perceiver_. So I'm telling you, it's not always what you think it is. I, too, got caught in the rut of thinking IP = uber perceiver, but it does not. IPs are _more judging_ than IJs, functionally speaking. IJs and EPs lead with perceiving, thus they _can _be more "go with the flow."

@_Flatlander_ is near the only person I know of who might be willing/able to help. I've given up on the MBTI community, for the most part. The theory is okay, but the talk has become way superficial.

Personally, I used Understanding the Archetypes involving the eight functions of type (Beebe model) and http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...homsons-descriptions-cognitive-functions.html to figure out I was Ni-dom. I still haven't definitively ruled out ISFP, but I feel confident enough to say I'm an introverted user of both Ni/Se and Fi/Te, which limits it to two types: ISFP or INTJ. And even then "INTJ" is merely the accepted label for "Ni-Te-Fi-Se," not what I actually see myself in.



> Type 7. I can't relate to avoiding pain. Life is filled with pain, particularly mine, and I dwell in it. Too much. Far too much. I've been over-serious all my life, not that a 7 can't be serious, but most wouldn't be habitually told they're "too serious". I'm generally observed to be "negative" and "pessimistic" which would be other odd monikers to assign a 7.


Mmm. My sister is rather reticent, but utilizes all the "planning, avoiding" mechanisms of 7. Not bubbly, complains a bit. Is optimistic in a way that does not show in her behaviors -- just that she expects her plans to work. I type her solidly at 7w6.

Likewise, I'm solidly 6w7, yet suck at being around people. Polite, sure, got that down. But that's only if I don't know you and don't care to go beyond the surface. With my friends, I am sarcastic and stoic and "tough love, baby." 6w7s are supposed to be bubbly and extroverted, and I'm... not. At all. (And though I am kinda loathe to say this, a simplification of me would be "INTJ in behaviors, 6w7 in mind.")

I did want to suggest 6/7 for you, btw. As in, 6w7 or 7w6.



> Type 1: Here, I don't relate to the postponement of pleasure or the sense that I have to earn it. I have trouble saying No to myself and lack discipline. All the time. And I'm good with that. There is no ideal way, "right" way, good way, etc. There are just different ways, and to each his own. God made the world inherently perfect, and it's just humans that screw it up. And it's not really my job to make them stop. I don't have any sense of how anything "ought" to be. I don't want to change anyone. I just bitch and moan.


How do you relate to having an inner critic? Why do you "bitch and moan" if you have no "sense of how anything 'ought' to be"? 

I know a 1w2 who is fairly accepting of other people, of cultures and behaviors and whatnot. If you don't "trigger" him, he's quite mellow. But if you get him by something he cares about, he's utterly perfectionistic and disciplined, far more than I could hope to be. (I consider my 1w9 fix fairly strong, btw.) In his case, I _suspect_ it's environmental -- he grew up in NYC, there's a lot of diversity and crap there -- but I don't see why it'd have to be limited to the environment.


----------



## littlebirdx

Paradigm said:


> 6w5. Not necessarily core, probably at least a fix.
> 
> As a note, I don't "test" people either -- I find it hypocritical and pointless -- but I am drawn to specific people I like being around. And I'll internalize almost anything emotional, but tend to vent when there's conflict. I'm a very laconic 6w7, though, and 6w5s can sometimes be very different than 6w7s.


Pardon my lack of knowledge on this. Is it possible for someone to have their core and fix share the same wing, or would that indicate a mistyping? (ex: 4w5 core, 6w5 fix)


----------



## Golden Rose

Animal said:


> Send me photos


Visual typing? Muh pictures are on your way ;D
I'll be taking more tomorrow, lemme know if you want more.


----------



## Paradigm

littlebirdx said:


> Pardon my lack of knowledge on this. Is it possible for someone to have their core and fix share the same wing, or would that indicate a mistyping? (ex: 4w5 core, 6w5 fix)


No, it's possible. My mom undeniably has 9w1 and 2w1 fixes, for example.

Sometimes it can mean a user is a little bit too... fixated on a type, though. Not always, probably not even usually. It's most common in the people who type as "4w5-5w4" or "7w8-8w7" (I don't remember seeing anyone typing as "1w2-2w1," must be too uncool). The people who are "double winged" (4w5-6w5) are much less likely to fall into this trap, in my experience, but it can happen.

So... basically, yes. Totes cool


----------



## drmiller100

Daleks_exterminate said:


> Challenge my type.


i believe entp 7.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Alright, I'll present my counter arguments. Thanks for your thoughtful responses!



Arya said:


> *-Sixes don't have PTSD. I can't say I care much about people either unless I have a particular reason to care. Not to mention I'm an INTP so obliviousness comes naturally to me. *


I am not suggesting 6s have PTSD, and you know that. Please don't put that in my mouth! I actually find it offensive that Riso and Hudson say something to the effect of "their thought processes can actually start to affect their mental health" regarding 6s, and Chestnut actually likens type 6 to PTSD. But most authors do note that 6s _pay attention to things_--people, arguments, environment, ideas, whatever. They have sharp minds that stay on top of things, predicting. Helen Palmer, an NT 6 herself, even references a 6s attentional pattern as being split between what's in front of them, and a potential source of worry. She discusses at length that they tend to process things "mentally", and have minds which quickly spin off potentials. So, it's like...why isn't my brain doing this?? I've examined it.



> *I tend to be straight up and blunt with people if I feel like they're being unclear, but I don't expect people to be angry with me because people hardly ever are anyways. *


OK, but what I referenced there is actually something in my personal observations that I can't relate to. I'm not saying all 6s are like that, but like I said above, I'm sort of correlating it to being able to spin potentials off. 



> *I know a lot of sixes who trust themselves over anything else and think they know best. Super ego type after all. It's safer to trust yourself than others.*


It's not a matter of safety for me, though. It's a matter of something inspired. I want something better, so I go for it. End of story. 

It's also not a matter of "trusting myself more". I mean I navigate my entire life in reference to myself and what I want, and I do it alone because other people get in my way. Nothing else is even in the picture--not other people, not doubts, not super ego. It's not even something I'm just not aware of, because I specifically examined myself for how much I might be deluding myself in this regard. It seems to just be an inborn tendency. 



> *Yeah I don't understand why any feeling would be forbidden either. I have very good control over my feelings. They don't scare me. Plus I'm Ti dom, so my inner world is where I am most comfortable.*


Well good. But I can't relate to doubt, not of my own being.



> *I 100% agree with all of that. But I think most sixes consider everyone to be "bad guys" There is no such thing as the good guy camp considering we are uncertain about everyone. And yeah that is an insult to the typical reality, but I haven't really met any sixes like that so....*


Well _I've_ met 6s like that. Family friend, he accused me of fraternizing with the enemy or something when I didn't take his side. He's not the healthiest guy, but it's still a noted phenomenon. I don't think it's a matter of making these defense mechanisms that literal, however. It's a matter of, this is not how my brain works, even metaphorically. It's not part of the process. The only thing is that I have learned that most people are abusive assholes, but it doesn't make me uncertain about them. It just means that I ignore them even more.

Also, have you read Chestnut's work? I'd be eager to hear your thoughts on her ideas about 6.



> *So bad we'll be punished? huh? how does this relate to six? Most sixes don't seem to have any big deal with whether they are bad or good. sounds like one-ish behavior. I consider myself in control of what I do/don't, but that doesn't change the fact that unknown variables could be thrown in at any time and destroy things for me.*


No, I've heard it come up several times from self-typed 6s online and irl. "I'll do something so bad you won't be my friend any more". Something seems to lend itself to that way of thinking. It's not so much that I "haven't had that thought", but that I can't understand that sort of thinking as being part of my own psychological background. As regards to good / bad terminology, sorry, but I get the sense you're just picking buzz words to prove some point. I don't mean that mean or critical, I just don't really have another argument since that wasn't really what I was saying. But, you did say super-ego types, so I suppose there could be a discussion of good / bad around here.



> *Yeah I'd say the same honestly. I don't think in terms of rebel. why rebel unless it's the logical thing to do?*


You don't notice authority at _all_? Seriously? 



> *Actually many sixes feel this way. They want to be strong in and of themselves. They have a pride issue with being seen as weak. *


I consider myself strong and don't want to be seen as weak. But you're overlooking that I said that most literature will state that 6s ultimately do want something or someone to trust and to depend on, even if that's just one person.

Arya, tell me this: Why do you type as 6? Clearly we agree on most points above, yet after months of trying to will myself to be a 6 and many more months of _specifically_ trying to uncover evidence of it in my psyche, I am still unpersuaded that I'm actually a 6. Yet, you saw it first thing when you read the descriptions. What was it that was obvious for you?


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> However, totally agree about the whole thing of needing "someone stronger." I mean, that's a joke, right? That's _incredibly_ insulting to have someone assume that about me. I am my own person, I have my own strengths, and I stand on my own. I've never had role models or beliefs in spirituality or followed any code. I am my own code.


Yeah.. I've never met any six who would disagree with this. Sixes are actually the most independent thinkers in my experience because in their search for something to believe in , they question EVERYTHING. I've never seen any six blindly accept someone else's code.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Paradigm said:


> I don't remember who it was -- I think a retired member -- but someone said I'm a 6 without "flaming" 6 issues. The online community vastly over-emphasizes parts of several types, and there's a huge lack of average people who don't have obvious issues.


Yes, I strongly agree, most people aren't stereotypes.



> I suspect you're one of those people without flaming core issues. Which reminds me of a question, do you even want to be typed?


Yes, and no. People are going to form their own opinions of me regardless. They are welcome to share them, but my job is to come to my own conclusion. If someone suggests something, I have to understand it and why it makes sense before accepting it. Someone could throw out something I haven't thought of yet, or might be able to cede an example that I connects it for me. Ultimately, I'd like to come to some sort of understanding about what my core is, since it seems so obvious in most other people, even the non-stereotypes.



> I have to say... reading this kind of annoyed me, because it felt like you didn't actually read what I wrote.


I'm bad at reading, I admit it, though I did read it and responded to the best of my ability.



> Yes. I have those behaviors, too. I test as INFP constantly, and as _80% Perceiver_. So I'm telling you, it's not always what you think it is. I, too, got caught in the rut of thinking IP = uber perceiver, but it does not. IPs are _more judging_ than IJs, functionally speaking. IJs and EPs lead with perceiving, thus they _can _be more "go with the flow."


This isn't about "80%" though. This is like, I _embody_ it. I try to keep an open mind about things, but this is like, Thank God I have a reason. My mother is an ISFJ, fwiw (self-typed), and she definitely does NOT have the problems I have. She could be lackadaisical, but things still get filed away, done on time, the bills paid, the pets fed, etc. She was usually the one that had to clean up after _me_ (and still would in my 30s, if we were ever to meet again). I'd have to throw out MBTI, which to be honest, I don't see the value of outside what I mentioned here, that's all. That's just my thoughts on it.



> @_Flatlander_ is near the only person I know of who might be willing/able to help. I've given up on the MBTI community, for the most part. The theory is okay, but the talk has become way superficial.


Thanks.



> Personally, I used Understanding the Archetypes involving the eight functions of type (Beebe model) and http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...homsons-descriptions-cognitive-functions.html to figure out I was Ni-dom. I still haven't definitively ruled out ISFP, but I feel confident enough to say I'm an introverted user of both Ni/Se and Fi/Te, which limits it to two types: ISFP or INTJ. And even then "INTJ" is merely the accepted label for "Ni-Te-Fi-Se," not what I actually see myself in.


How did you figure this out? Just curious about your process.



> Mmm. My sister is rather reticent, but utilizes all the "planning, avoiding" mechanisms of 7. Not bubbly, complains a bit. Is optimistic in a way that does not show in her behaviors -- just that she expects her plans to work. I type her solidly at 7w6.


Duly noted.



> Likewise, I'm solidly 6w7, yet suck at being around people. Polite, sure, got that down. But that's only if I don't know you and don't care to go beyond the surface. With my friends, I am sarcastic and stoic and "tough love, baby." 6w7s are supposed to be bubbly and extroverted, and I'm... not. At all. (And though I am kinda loathe to say this, a simplification of me would be "INTJ in behaviors, 6w7 in mind.")


Well only if you go by behaviors. I'm trying to see it in terms of what actually makes people "tick"--their psychological processes, their mentality, their knee-jerk responses to various situation.



> I did want to suggest 6/7 for you, btw. As in, 6w7 or 7w6.


Tell me why. I frankly don't see it, and as I mentioned above several times, I've _tried _to.



> How do you relate to having an inner critic? Why do you "bitch and moan" if you have no "sense of how anything 'ought' to be"?


I've examined myself for an inner critic. Non-existant. I tend to evaluate myself, but only in the sense that I think I have to be better than everyone else by comparison. There is no voice telling me to work harder, do better, try again, whatever. I mean, no voice of self-monitoring. More of a commentary on life, or fantasy land, thinking about various typologies.

Bitching and moaning revolves more around people getting in my way (in literal, and many less literal, forms), and things I'd attribute to SOC, honestly--why are my tax dollars going to blow people up in Iraq? I didn't authorize that. Why do I have to dye my hair for work? Why can't I wear my nail polish chipped? Why are these people so superficial, and why won't they leave me alone? That sort of thing.

That, and I've struggled for many years with illness, depression, poverty, violence, and isolation, not in that order, and that tends to lend itself to venting simply as a means not to be consumed by ones circumstances.



> I know a 1w2 who is fairly accepting of other people, of cultures and behaviors and whatnot. If you don't "trigger" him, he's quite mellow. But if you get him by something he cares about, he's utterly perfectionistic and disciplined, far more than I could hope to be. (I consider my 1w9 fix fairly strong, btw.) In his case, I _suspect_ it's environmental -- he grew up in NYC, there's a lot of diversity and crap there -- but I don't see why it'd have to be limited to the environment.


Fair enough. I'd have a 9-wing though, because 2 is one of the types I'd say was least like me.


----------



## Purrfessor

Paradigm said:


> Maybe you should look at it from other perspectives? The triads of each type, for example. They really helped me out.
> 
> I could even see 9w1 (with your so/sx) being a possibility... Maybe not a probability, but still something to consider. 9s are said to be "asleep," and mental illnesses can really confuse things. It's like now you're waking up, maybe -- you dreamt of grandeur, you're waking up to reality.
> 
> Speaking more generally, I don't really get a "7 vibe" from you, nor a "heady vibe." Do you relate to the head/fear triad at all?


Also what is this triad stoof you speak of?


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Thanks for your intelligent response.



Vergil said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I used the smiley for mental laughter. I only just smiled at your reply. But it was funnier than most replies I get. I'm not making fun of you or anything, it's just something that made my brain chuckle.  XD
> 
> (notice the no. of smileys I use in any post. It's way too high.. i don't know why.. to not use them, i can only try.. :sigh:...but i like em)
> 
> *clears throat* Enough with the tomfoolery.


Why is it funny though? It's a very legitimate concern I have. I'm really not happy about the feedback I get regarding myself just being this miserable person all the time, and it's one of those biases that honestly prevented me from examining 7 for a long time.



> I personally over identify with anger. I typed more readily at 1 than at 7. I was unwilling to even look at 8 even though 8 is the other openly angry type of the ennegram (I consider the anti-8 orientation a conscious reaction formation against my dad who is 8... I have issues ). So, the anger isn't new to me. If you recall, I was also accused of being a 1 masquerading as a 7 on the 7 subforum (I'm sure you know which thread I'm referring to.. and if you don't, well, it's no biggie ) Point being: typing at 7 doesn't mean you avoid anger, repressed anger, forget anger or any of those things. It just means you would like it very much for things and people to not make you angry frequently. Coz it messes with your mojo. XD


I've never actually considered anger that way. I get annoyed with things, which I do partly hate because it's annoying to people who know me, and partly because it's annoying getting annoyed (lol), but it doesn't exactly mess with my mojo. Or maybe it does because it's like, There goes typeless being annoyed an annoying again... But it doesn't seem that way at the time.

I don't recall you being accused of being a 1, but I do know connections can be very strong! I may have to go post stalk you now.... cause I"m curious.



> I could try and help you rationalize why you may be 7, if you're into rationalizations.  XD


Rationalize away.



> Its a weird way to word the 7 problem - *if I have super-ego messages to be happy, why am I so bad at that.* I'll try to put forth why I find it strange. Being a happy person in a compulsive sort of way doesn't really resonate with me. I'd actually bunch compulsive happiness with 3s and 9s. Moreso 9s than 3s. I want to be happy, but if I am unable to be happy.. well somebody had better fix the problem fast lest they should stand to bear the brunt of my angry ranting.  (I can be a real complainer and when I complain I can literally feel my blood boil - hot forehead, hotter than usual palms, etc. - and after I'm done, it just fades away and I get into my video games and it's fun... tentatively).


Now when I'm unhappy, I tend to blame myself for not being awesome enough to have pulled off the same things that everyone does second nature...like make friends, etc. Interesting about the 9s. I've never seen them be compulsively happy (though none of them have been 7 or 3 fixed, incidentally), mainly just compulsively comfortable and content. Threes, I don't actually know. One 3 I know (also 7-fixed) and actually tried to tell me about The Secret in the middle of a depressive episode because positive thinking is the solution to all my losses. So I could buy it (3s being compulsively positive, not _The Secret_) in that case.



> The lack of happiness is perceived as a lack of love, but there isn't a compulsive need to create love or feel love from the sources we already have. Therefore, we drift. "_If I don't get love here, I'll just go look elsewhere._" The perception of lovelessness only becomes obvious/conscious (as a feeling of disappointment) when several sources prove less effective at giving you what you want, or what you thought you'd get out of it, and you're left wondering - why the fuck am I not crazy happy right now?! Why is nothing working out for me?


What you say corroborates what I've read about some 7s equating love with happiness and / or indulgence.



> I really wouldn't say an unhappy 7 is bad at being happy. I'd say they're growing. Because gluttony doesn't and it cannot lead to happiness. It's like filler arcs in an anime - pointless and in no way contributory to the main story but still can be entertaining for a while.


I don't think I grew during my years of unhappiness though. I just felt deprived and miserable.



> 7s also get into the "let's face the reality" mentality quite often because I believe they can see through charades, being master manipulators themselves; they entertain themselves constantly when life leads them to dark places - not because they can't see the darkness but because they don't want to constantly be starting at it. It's a way to keep the bad things from getting to you.


What constitutes darkness, in your opinion? I feel like I stare at it a little too much, at least things others find disturbing. It's like a horrid fascination. I'd say I'm a master manipulator, though. I find it funny how easily people believe my BS sometimes, actually. Just smile really big and the masses lap it up. Lol.



> 7s retreating into mind is more a consequence of immersion into things they're looking to get high on. It's like mentally enhance the experience until you just can't and reality kicks in and you quickly flee to the next thing whose reality is still largely unknown to you.


I actually do relate to that. I actually moved to a new country (several times) and once it lost it's newness, I was already thinking about moving on. It just becomes depressing and not what I was imagining it would be. It can't give me what I want, let's try again elsewhere. My boss even told me I needed to "stop running" from my problems (she was 7-fixed so that might be her perception because I don't know what problems I would be fleeing, just hoping for something better).


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Threes, I don't actually know. One 3 I know (also 7-fixed) and actually tried to tell me about The Secret in the middle of a depressive episode because positive thinking is the solution to all my losses. So I could buy it (3s being compulsively positive, not _The Secret_) in that case.


There's a three I know who does this. He posts about positivity on facebook all the time. I contacted him to complement his music and he asked how I was.. and tried to advise me to "Stay positive!" and "As long as you stay positive, everything will turn out fine!" .. when I was going through circumstances that were AWFUL (severe chronic illness, inability to do my music which he was always a fan of, serious illness in the family and much much more)... I wanted to wring his neck. What the fuck is wrong with people?

Disclaimer: Not all 3s are like this. I have a friend who is a 3 and she has yet to turn me away in difficult times or tell me to "Stay positive." She complains even more than I do, and I love her honesty. 

But I do find that the "Stay positive!" people who I most want to kill are often 3s or disintegrated 6w7s. Again, not all of them are like this. Just..the people I've met who are this way.. I have noticed this pattern. I have never been told by a 7 to "stay positive!" though 7s will sometimes help me to see the brighter side or the light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## Arya

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Thanks again for your extended reply!
> 
> 
> Hmmm...well I do test as an INTP. I'll put up a real type me thread over there sometime, just to see what it yields. You seem quite pragmatic, btw.


I'd say MBTI tests are even worse than enneagram ones. You could be though. definitely get into function theory when you have a chance.



> Always wondering if you might be wrong somehow. Not quite being sure, either about yourself or something in the external environment. Uncertainty. Thinking something might be true, but then worrying that it might _not_ be true.


Yeah fair defintion



> I don't think people are going to stab me in the back, though I do expect that most would eventually stop caring and go their own way. I see people as just being really self-serving and quick to abandon another for something better, their own personal gain. I don't experience this as "trust", just sort of makes me more cynical toward people and less likely to care about them.


I'm going to suggest you are an id type-8,7, or 3. You are coming from a very id perspective on how people are. 




> It is actually a very irritating book. I don't like it. But she does shed the light of a condensed perspective on what's generally accepted by the enneagram community.


I guess it would be an interesting read.




> I find these two posts intriguing.


Do remember SO is my middle function. From that perspective it is actually my best used, not obsessed about function. Anything that comes within the realms of SO is like breathing for me. I just don't care about it. I use it to get what SX wants. So authority, groups net working, social status etc. just not important to me.



> Key in my own case is, I'm not looking for it. I never was. So, I haven't exactly given up, I just was born without caring, really. I don't see things in terms of being unstable or untrustworthy, though either way, it is certainly sensible to rely upon oneself. It's more like "I like it / I don't like it".


id type again maybe



> Well, that's the larger fixation, and I just don't really identify. I was trying to keep the discussion away from it, actually, because that gets me into "you're just blind to it" reasoning, which is annoying. But, upon examination, I can definitively say I haven't built my life around this. The only part I can say is true of me is that when I come up against a difficult situation, I do sometimes try to "prepare mentally", though things don't generally go as I've expected, thus rendering it moot after several seconds.


So what fixations do you relate to? I'd suggest starting there as well as dealing with the holy ideas and vices etc.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Thanks for your intelligent response.


It's when I get responses like these that I wonder if I'm more like Sheldon from BBT than not. Coz.. I can be sarcastic, but I also have a hard time distinguishing sarcasm from genuine appreciation when it comes from other people. XD



> Why is it funny though? It's a very legitimate concern I have. I'm really not happy about the feedback I get regarding myself just being this miserable person all the time, and it's one of those biases that honestly prevented me from examining 7 for a long time.


Nothing specific. It just made me chuckle. I don't always need things to be clever and witty for me to laugh. I can laugh at a lot of things. I was grinning the other day when an acquaintance of mine was telling me how she was on the verge of death by electrocution. It was not a humorous tale but I still smiled coz I felt like smiling. I also thought she might take offense at my potentially inappropriate expression but she was also laughing a lot, trying to make light of the situation. Kinda not letting herself feel that her life, or anyone else's life, is a fleeting thing which is so easy to take away. She was being hysterical and once or twice her face showed the dread she felt. Consequently I was feeling philosophical, and when that happens I end up smiling, even at some seemingly grim things. 



> I've never actually considered anger that way. I get annoyed with things, which I do partly hate because it's annoying to people who know me, and partly because it's annoying getting annoyed (lol), but it doesn't exactly mess with my mojo. Or maybe it does because it's like, There goes typeless being annoyed an annoying again... But it doesn't seem that way at the time.


Well, 7 anger usually is one of or a combination of the following:
1) dissatisfaction
2) frustration at being dissatisfied
3) anxiety
4) Impatience

You imagine going to the park would be nice and it'd be a blast. On getting there though, you encounter all the lines and all the waiting and you get irritated. "OMG! I hate this place.! Why the fuck do all these people have to go on the the ride that I want to ride!" etc.



> I don't recall you being accused of being a 1, but I do know connections can be very strong! I may have to go post stalk you now.... cause I"m curious.


It was a pretty ridiculous thing. Stalk away if you like though I warn you there's nothing clever or even reasonable to be found. 



> Now when I'm unhappy, I tend to blame myself for not being awesome enough to have pulled off the same things that everyone does second nature...like make friends, etc. Interesting about the 9s. I've never seen them be compulsively happy (though none of them have been 7 or 3 fixed, incidentally), mainly just compulsively comfortable and content. Threes, I don't actually know. One 3 I know (also 7-fixed) and actually tried to tell me about The Secret in the middle of a depressive episode because positive thinking is the solution to all my losses. So I could buy it (3s being compulsively positive, not _The Secret_) in that case.


Yeah... this is somewhat different for me. I tend not to devolve to blaming myself because I've been there and I was miserable. I don't want to go there if I can help it. 



> I don't think I grew during my years of unhappiness though. I just felt deprived and miserable.


That is probably because you expected to feel like "wow..! I've grown so much!" but didn't?
Like in my case, when I realized what an annoyingly supremacist asshole I was as a kid, I didn't feel like... "_oh god! I was so terrible! And thank heavens I'm better now!_" I felt like... "_damn! was that what I was like? hahahaha..._" and then I sorta feel guilty because I can understand what the others must have felt like to be around me.. but I still put it in perspective. That's all in the past. I am not who I was. No use burying yourself in guilt for things that have long since passed. The way is always forward. <-- This I equate with growth and it is a humbling feeling. It doesn't make you feel like the greatest Xiaolin master of all time. XD



> What constitutes darkness, in your opinion? I feel like I stare at it a little too much, at least things others find disturbing. It's like a horrid fascination. I'd say I'm a master manipulator, though. I find it funny how easily people believe my BS sometimes, actually. Just smile really big and the masses lap it up. Lol.


Anything undesirable and less than ideal is dark for me. Human depravity, the entire concept of 'consequences', etc., the thought of where the world is heading instead of where I think it should be headed (make note: where I think the world should be headed may not be the best of places for it to really head to..XD). Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it's not. Who's to say? 



> I actually do relate to that. I actually moved to a new country (several times) and once it lost it's newness, I was already thinking about moving on. It just becomes depressing and not what I was imagining it would be. It can't give me what I want, let's try again elsewhere. My boss even told me I needed to "stop running" from my problems (she was 7-fixed so that might be her perception because *I don't know what problems I would be fleeing, just hoping for something better*).


Generally when a 7 flees pain, it is never with a clear idea of where they want to go. It is usually with the intention to be 'anywhere but here.' It's never "I want X" it's usually "I don't want Y." This is reflected in the way you have worded the bold parts, especially - something better.


----------



## Modal Soul

Stelliferous said:


> Grammar pl0x.


i don't even remember posting that got damn


----------



## Kisshoten

Stelliferous said:


> As as for my 7 (maybe fix maybe dom), I stopped looking for that perfect source of pleasure in another or in a singular thing like a video game (1 disintegration) and opened my eyes to EVERYTHING (5 integration). *I don't think healthy 7s should become monogamous. Settling down breeds disappointment for 7s.*


This is very interesting. I was meaning to write about this, but I didn't know what to write. I still don't, but Ima write something anyway. 

I am not sure I agree entirely but I find it hard to disagree either. Commitment phobia is a real thing. I don't want to be stuck, but at the same time I don't want to be single. Its a paradoxical situation for me, one I'm sure will never change given my RL conditions. 

It almost feels like everything anyone said to me when I was young was a lie. It was all one lie after another. And I was fooled. Led down a path that is sure to breed disappointment for me. I have no way to fight back either. 

Seems so unfair. 

=/


----------



## Purrfessor

Vergil said:


> This is very interesting. I was meaning to write about this, but I didn't know what to write. I still don't, but Ima write something anyway.
> 
> I am not sure I agree entirely but I find it hard to disagree either. Commitment phobia is a real thing. I don't want to be stuck, but at the same time I don't want to be single. Its a paradoxical situation for me, one I'm sure will never change given my RL conditions.
> 
> It almost feels like everything anyone said to me when I was young was a lie. It was all one lie after another. And I was fooled. Led down a path that is sure to breed disappointment for me. I have no way to fight back either.
> 
> Seems so unfair.
> 
> =/


Ok I think marriage is a no no for a 7, not necessarily a relationship. Because you simply can't keep a promise like that. In a relationship, you can be committed but you can leave any time if need be. You'll lose attractiveness with time spent with anybody. No matter who it is. Sevens seek happiness, everybody married says "marriage is hard" and they're not even all 7s.


----------



## Purrfessor

Modal Soul said:


> i don't even remember posting that got damn


That explains so much.


----------



## Kintsugi

Stelliferous said:


> Ok I think marriage is a no no for a 7, not necessarily a relationship. Because you simply can't keep a promise like that. In a relationship, you can be committed but you can leave any time if need be. You'll lose attractiveness with time spent with anybody. No matter who it is. Sevens seek happiness, everybody married says "marriage is hard" and they're not even all 7s.


I think you definitely have a point...

However, I'm tempted to just say "screw that" - and willingly accept the challenge. I'm in a long-term relationship and currently trying to deal with the reality of this situation I've got myself into is that, inevitably, at some point this is going to lead to engagement/marriage...
Which really fucking freaks me out. Seriously. :crying:

Tbh, I'm struggling. I've got serious issues. I want to run away so badly, my feet are itching SO MUCH. And this isn't because I don't love him; I've thought about this _a lot. _It's because I'm afraid of boredom, I'm afraid of having to deal with the pain and suffering that comes with all relationships, because, you know, they ain't fucking easy! I'm beginning to realize what a wimp/coward I really am. Damnit. 

But in my mind I keep thinking, _"this is awesome, the struggle is going to help me grow...develop.....flourish. Putting myself through this experience is going to lead to life-changing development and progress. This is FUCKING AWESOME."
_
But...the truth is that I'm not actually DEALING with it. And as soon as I get the first indicators of the hard times ahead I know I'm going to start looking for the nearest fire exit. I _always _do.

I fucking hate this. Meh.


----------



## Purrfessor

Kintsugi said:


> I think you definitely have a point...
> 
> However, I'm tempted to just say "screw that" - and willingly accept the challenge. I'm in a long-term relationship and currently trying to deal with the reality of this situation I've got myself into is that, inevitably, at some point this is going to lead to engagement/marriage...
> Which really fucking freaks me out. Seriously. :crying:
> 
> Tbh, I'm struggling. I've got serious issues. I want to run away so badly, my feet are itching SO MUCH. And this isn't because I don't love him; I've thought about this _a lot. _It's because I'm afraid of boredom, I'm afraid of having to deal with the pain and suffering that comes with all relationships, because, you know, they ain't fucking easy! I'm beginning to realize what a wimp/coward I really am. Damnit.
> 
> But in my mind I keep thinking, _"this is awesome, the struggle is going to help me grow...develop.....flourish. Putting myself through this experience is going to lead to life-changing development and progress. This is FUCKING AWESOME."
> _
> But...the truth is that I'm not actually DEALING with it. And as soon as I get the first indicators of the hard times ahead I know I'm going to start looking for the nearest fire exit. I _always _do.
> 
> I fucking hate this. Meh.


That's definitely a w8 attitude haha. (Or 8 if you're type 8 fix). From my experience, I never actually was able to deal with it and conquer this obstacle. Not without an addiction or escape of some sort. And that's not healthy... I think to make a marriage work you'll have to have tons of adventures. Like.., a lot. I understand love but... People will always be individuals. And if this person can't satisfy your need to basically be an adventurer, then don't rely at all. It's possible to work but YOU don't make it work specifically. It takes work from the other too and I would talk to he/she about.


----------



## Kintsugi

Stelliferous said:


> That's definitely a w8 attitude haha. (Or 8 if you're type 8 fix). From my experience, I never actually was able to deal with it and conquer this obstacle. Not without an addiction or escape of some sort. And that's not healthy... I think to make a marriage work you'll have to have tons of adventures. Like.., a lot. I understand love but... People will always be individuals. And if this person can't satisfy your need to basically be an adventurer, then don't rely at all. It's possible to work but YOU don't make it work specifically. It takes work from the other too and I would talk to he/she about.


I have no idea about wings or tritype atm, I've only just settled on core 7. However, I am Se-dominant which might make my (behavior/communication style, etc) come across more 8ish at times. I always thought I related to 6 more but recently I've started to see the possible 8 in me; most notably regarding my issues with vulnerability and what I perceive as "weakness". But tbh, I don't know enough about the type to comment much further than that.

Anyway,

My partner is an INTJ 5w4, and, in all fairness, he doesn't exactly bore me. The guy is fucking nuts, lol. I LOVE it. We've been dating for 2.5 years and only now am I starting to freak out about commitment, which is a significant record for me given my previous relationships/flings. I would say if it's going to work with anyone, it's going to be him...

That's if he's willing to keep upping the game/bending the rules in order to keep me interested. He too says he's up for the challenge; we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Purrfessor

Kintsugi said:


> I have no idea about wings or tritype atm, I've only just settled on core 7. However, I am Se-dominant which might make my (behavior/communication style, etc) come across more 8ish at times. I always thought I related to 6 more but recently I've started to see the possible 8 in me; most notably regarding my issues with vulnerability and what I perceive as "weakness". But tbh, I don't know enough about the type to comment much further than that.
> 
> Anyway,
> 
> My partner is an INTJ 5w4, and, in all fairness, he doesn't exactly bore me. The guy is fucking nuts, lol. I LOVE it. We've been dating for 2.5 years and only now am I starting to freak out about commitment, which is a significant record for me given my previous relationships/flings. I would say if it's going to work with anyone, it's going to be him...
> 
> That's if he's willing to keep upping the game/bending the rules in order to keep me interested. He too says he's up for the challenge; we'll just have to wait and see.


Yeah it will take someone incredible to make it work. He very well may be the person. You know him better than me. Maybe my mind will change for myself if a person like that appeared in my life.


----------



## Kintsugi

Stelliferous said:


> Yeah it will take someone incredible to make it work. He very well may be the person. You know him better than me. Maybe my mind will change for myself if a person like that appeared in my life.


Type aside, I think this stuff is hard for most people. 

Anyway, like I said, I'm up for the challenge. Life's too short and all that jazz.


----------



## Purrfessor

Kintsugi said:


> Type aside, I think this stuff is hard for most people.
> 
> Anyway, like I said, I'm up for the challenge. Life's too short and all that jazz.


Hard for most yes, but it goes to another level with a 7. I like my challenges involving puzzles and grit, personally.  I think I would play it safe whenever other people are involved. That's me however. You're very different.


----------



## Kintsugi

Stelliferous said:


> Hard for most yes, but it goes to another level with a 7. I like my challenges involving puzzles and grit, personally.  I think I would play it safe whenever other people are involved. That's me however. You're very different.


Oh trust me, I've spent years keeping people at arms length because I know how damaging and destructive my behavior can be. I'm not not at all proud of hurting those close to me in the past. It took me a damn long time to accept that I had as well.

This time it feels different though.


----------



## Kisshoten

I wish I had better social conditions to have a rewarding relationship without having to go through the painful process of marriage. 

=/


----------



## Purrfessor

@_Paradigm_ yeah I'm definitely NOT a 9. I'm remembering the past few days where I had little to work on (a day a 9 would love) and I basically didn't know what to do and I lost a bunch of energy. I hate not working. I was so good at LoL in such a fast stretch of time because I was constantly working. I took refuge in video games precisely to feed my work addiction.


----------



## Flatlander

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Well I'd say very much the same thing about myself that you've said there. My entire life, I've tried to just "do without", including people, things, food, money, you name it. I get yelled at for not asking for help, too. I don't even _think_ about doing so, because I've done everything myself all my life and it doesn't even occur to me to do so. (There are many good reasons I've considered 5 as the core). I personally don't take others into account, at _all_ and have never consulted another person or thing in wondering what I should do with my life. Actually, that's never even been a question, "just dicking around" seems to be all I've got, but the assumption was that it was going to be of my own volition and that I'd know it when I saw it. But I would feel hugely insulted to have to rely upon someone stronger than myself, and I said so initially. I don't want anyone "protecting" me, that's an anathema. It nauseates me. People should mind their own damn business.
> 
> So I'm not saying asking for guidance or support is universal in this sense. Actually, I don't think this _is_ universal; I was talking more about basic survival issues, as in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We all need food water air. We all need a safe zone. We all need to be valued for something. We all depend on the larger social system to provide jobs, keep up the food supply, enforce the law, etc. I've seen what happens when humans _don't_ do this, actually, and it gets bad really fast. This is the part that is universal. I don't go around thinking about it, but intellectually speaking, I do realize this fact.
> 
> Yes, you can try to insinuate that I'm being difficult here. But I'm just not going to accept a type that I don't see at work within me, and I have to understand why I didn't see it if I settle on that particular conclusion. I have to understand it to accept it, that's all, and most of what we're saying I've already been through myself. I can't really say anything like, Yes, I'll explore that, because often, I actually have. I'm always willing to hear people out, but it's sort of like being a master chess player here--I know all the moves because I've done them a million times myself. And I don't currently have any conclusions. I'm happy just to comment on the system itself and anyone is welcome to drop me a comment about my type (So far, people have gotten 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 vibes, come on, it shouldn't be this impossible). Anyway. I believe that addresses it.


Not trying to get you to accept a type. It couldn't matter to me less what you do in this respect. You're a 10 for all I know, and if you don't want to be typed it ain't no thang.

But there are still discrepancies between the way we think. I think the processing from each of us comes from a different angle. 


You say this: _"My entire life, I've tried to just "do without", including people, things, food, money, you name it."_ 

If you have to try to do without, that implies you'd secretly rather do with, or the need is actually perceived somewhere, and it is denied. I don't actually have that issue per se - I don't deny my needs when I actually recognize them, I just don't tend to see them, outside of the need for my own space. I often don't see myself as being human and having other needs until I am pushed to extremes, and when I am pushed to the extreme enough to realize I have a need, I will go after it. Or it might happen that one is filled without me realizing I had it, I feel different, and I realize I had had a need at that point. 


You say this: _"But I would feel hugely insulted to have to rely upon someone stronger than myself, and I said so initially. I don't want anyone "protecting" me, that's an anathema. It nauseates me. People should mind their own damn business."_ 

Why is it an anathema? Aren't there people in the world you're weaker than? Does their protection really matter to _you_? Would it impact your mind for to have another acting as an indelible shell that makes little difference to its processing?


You say this: _"We all need food water air. We all need a safe zone. We all need to be valued for something. We all depend on the larger social system to provide jobs, keep up the food supply, enforce the law, etc. I've seen what happens when humans don't do this, actually, and it gets bad really fast. This is the part that is universal. I don't go around thinking about it, but intellectually speaking, I do realize this fact."_ 

Well I'm the person who doesn't think I'm human. I'm not really part of this universe and I never have been, so whatchoo sayin' bout me?


I'm not seeing core 9 for you at all. I'm seeing the decent possibility of 8 and I'd call it 8w9. I don't disagree with power triad for you so far, just that I see you going about it in more of a grounded way - your concerns seem to be realistic and different, more explicitly about the world versus yourself, boundaries and reliance. While it does resonate with me to a degree, it isn't what I'm really about - it's more of an aftereffect or a muted tendency in how I live and deal with the world. The closest _conscious_ correlate for me to what you're saying would be how I would ward my mind off from others' influence, especially when I was growing up, and that's where my 8 fix kicks in through the core 5.


----------



## Purrfessor

Vergil said:


> I wish I had better social conditions to have a rewarding relationship without having to go through the painful process of marriage.
> 
> =/


IKR. :/ so complicated.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Paradigm said:


> Attachment:
> I just don't see it within myself. Honestly, the only thing I see myself doing that might be Attachment is being a sort of "pack-rat" with sentimental items, and even then I can let those go if I see no use for them. I admit it could be more that I can't wrap my mind around what Attachment _really_ is, but I can't relate when reading about it. (Being part of the 3/6/9 Triangle I get, but not Attachment.) Especially when the 6 is supposed to "stay too long" in relationships, and I'm usually the quickest one to leave if I feel harmed (which I'd say is due to strong SP, but I think is also kind of typical of 6s who are highly skeptical).
> To theorize a bit, I think "Attachment" tends to resonate more with those who are double-Attachment in their tritype, which I am definitely not. I see more "Attachment" ideals in those who are 36x, for example, than I do in my 614 self.
> 
> Frustration:
> I've always had a sort of simmering resentment about everything outside of myself. The world, the people, just don't live up to my hopes. It's been a lifelong struggle for me. Even my depression manifests as irritability!  Complaining is second-nature, though a lot of my complaints have a bit of a facetious air to them. I strongly believe everything could be made better, and that everything has the probability to be lacking -- though I also realize the current knowledge can't always improve things right away. The overall status quo should _not _be accepted; we should always move forward.
> 
> By the way, did the reasons I laid out for typing as 6 explain well enough to you why I don't type at 1? I find it a bit hard to word the 6 vs. 1 differences I see in myself, even if I'm decently convinced of it.


Yeah, you do kind of sound 1ish based on that. But, I could see another type with strong frustration fixes saying the same thing to be fair. Thanks for sharing; if you'd like to tell me why you think 6 > 1, I'll listen of course.


----------



## Hespera

And @Paradigm, I know some people like Helen Palmer, but I think her descriptions are are a bit stereotypical. So far my favorites are _The Essential Enneagram _by David Daniels and, like I mentioned before, _The Enneagram of Passions and Virtues_ by Sandra Maitri. Naranjo's _Character and Neurosis_ is a difficult read, but I find the Trait Structure sections pretty insightful (his descriptions of Six are actually very relatable for me). Riso and Hudson's revised and expanded _Discovering Your Personality Type_ is decent as well.

I've been rereading all the Six and One descriptions I can get my hands on to see if I can get more of a handle on what the differences are, but they seem very entangled in my own personality (I think my SO does complicate that, since a lot of Type One descriptions lean that way). Here's what I've gathered:

Rules seem like a big factor in both types, as well as predicting and controlling circumstances. There's an aversion to making mistakes and a huge mistrust of either the self and/or the world. For Sixes it seems that these characteristics are defensive while Ones are more aggressive in a way (Sixes want things to be predictable for their own sake, while Ones actively want things to be 'right,' whatever that means for them). Sixes feel like the world is dangerous or out to get them while Ones are angry that the world doesn't fit how they believe it should be. Ones have a far more definite feel for what they're looking for; even though I'm not super confident, I have a sense of what's "right" or "wrong" when I encounter it and am always searching for that.

As far as the Harmonic groups go, I really like how they're described here. This source emphasizes that the Competency Triad is about working around the context of rules when problems arise and not being competent per se, while they call the Reactivity Triad the Emotional Realness/Intensity Triad. I'm emotional, but when stuff goes down I generally go into problem solver mode and do the whole "let's solve this like sensible, mature adults" thing.

Um, I suppose we could get into integration/disintegration lines, too...do you feel a connection to Three? I kind of felt Nine, but never could see Three at all.

Let me know if I'm being too intense here. I'd really like to help you and I think it's useful for me as well roud:


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Flatlander said:


> "
> Why does the attitude of others toward you matter?


Honestly, because then I have to constantly deal with them interacting with me in such a way. If people just think things about me and never bring it up, I don't really care.



> The response was half serious, half facetious. Perhaps I failed to convey that.


Yeah, I thought you were just being weird or something, sorry. In which case, it was actually pretty funny!



> If all you say is true, I just don't see you having sloth at the core. It's not the perception that's easiest to explain, but it came up because I think, so far, a gut type fits you, and I don't think it's 9.


Thanks.



> It doesn't matter to me that much what you're like. It matters to me what I see mattering to you. The whole point of a type is that it's your mindscape dictating what matters to you, creating an illusory point of view on the world. Into the creation of a mindscape goes the effects of one's past and background, one's present thinking, etc.
> 
> So tell me, if you're interested in exploring it from the scope of your past, not what you were like in the past, but what you prioritized and why. What mattered to you as a kid? What was your life about? If your priorities changed, what happened to change them - when, how, why? Don't just vaguely mention trauma, dig in man, at least if you are okay with sharing - and if you aren't, I wouldn't necessariliy expect an accurate typing from others.


Regarding trauma, I'm simply not ready to talk about it. I shared on another message board, and people used it against me. Right now, I'd prefer not to share. I'll say it happened to me in my late 20s (not as a child), that it involved violence, hunger, potentially fatal illness, and abandonment. A mental health professional expressed shock that I had not self-destructed.

Prior, I was just sort of a depressed teen and 20 something with no life who desparately wanted to participate in the world but was too socially awkward and too comfortable with being alone to notice that at the time. Hard saying what I prioritized during that time. I was determined to stay in college for as long as possible (despite the fact that it made me miserable) because I honestly believe life ended when you graduated and suddenly I'd be stuck doing things for other people till you die. I had no sense of direction, and no one in my life cared enough to give me one. 

As a kid? Same thing. I didn't have priorities beyond avoiding everyone else because they were mean to me. I envy @Animal for being born knowing her purpose. God gave me a lot of things, but not that. In middle age I look back and see how much of life I've frittered away...and I still have no idea why I'm on Planet Earth. I don't think I really belong here, either.

Anyway, that's just a sentiment, not necessarily a typing sentiment. Thanks for your response anyway.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Prior, I was just sort of a depressed teen and 20 something with no life *who desparately wanted to participate in the world but was too socially awkward and too comfortable with being alone* to notice that at the time. Hard saying what I prioritized during that time. I was determined to stay in college for as long as possible (despite the fact that it made me miserable) because I honestly believe *life ended when you graduated and suddenly I'd be stuck doing things for other people till you die. I had no sense of direction, and no one in my life cared enough to give me one. *
> 
> As a kid? Same thing. I didn't have priorities beyond avoiding everyone else because they were mean to me. I envy @_Animal_ for being born knowing her purpose. *God gave me a lot of things, but not that*. In middle age I look back and see how much of life I've frittered away...and I still have no idea why I'm on Planet Earth. I don't think I really belong here, either.
> 
> Anyway, that's just a sentiment, not necessarily a typing sentiment. Thanks for your response anyway.


I identify A LOT with the bold parts. =/
It's not a pretty feeling, but the sad part is... it makes me apathetic. Like...I know I should feel bad because its not a pleasant feeling, but it's like.. i can't bring myself to feel anything. Kinda like numbing. And... that kinda scares me too. 

Maybe I'll get comfortable with the idea of being a certain way that others would come to describe with the word 'miserable.' I don't want that, but I think that's where I'm headed.


----------



## Flatlander

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Honestly, because then I have to constantly deal with them interacting with me in such a way. If people just think things about me and never bring it up, I don't really care.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I thought you were just being weird or something, sorry. In which case, it was actually pretty funny!
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regarding trauma, I'm simply not ready to talk about it. I shared on another message board, and people used it against me. Right now, I'd prefer not to share. I'll say it happened to me in my late 20s (not as a child), that it involved violence, hunger, potentially fatal illness, and abandonment. A mental health professional expressed shock that I had not self-destructed.
> 
> Prior, I was just sort of a depressed teen and 20 something with no life who desparately wanted to participate in the world but was too socially awkward and too comfortable with being alone to notice that at the time. Hard saying what I prioritized during that time. I was determined to stay in college for as long as possible (despite the fact that it made me miserable) because I honestly believe life ended when you graduated and suddenly I'd be stuck doing things for other people till you die. I had no sense of direction, and no one in my life cared enough to give me one.
> 
> As a kid? Same thing. I didn't have priorities beyond avoiding everyone else because they were mean to me. I envy @_Animal_ for being born knowing her purpose. God gave me a lot of things, but not that. In middle age I look back and see how much of life I've frittered away...and I still have no idea why I'm on Planet Earth. I don't think I really belong here, either.
> 
> Anyway, that's just a sentiment, not necessarily a typing sentiment. Thanks for your response anyway.


Starting to see why someone else might've seen 9 in you. I might have more to say later, but for now I'm considering the idea of needing someone else or some other influence beyond yourself to give you purpose and what that implies about your type, also the inherent avoidance of conflict in your sentiment even if it wasn't directed toward typing. Being willing to stay someplace that hurts you simply to avoid the rest of life? 9s can be avoidant too.

You're not sharing a lot of meaning, though, so I probably won't get far with typing you. I suppose it probably pales in your m ind in comparison to your trauma, even if it's important to typing you.


----------



## Entropic

You know, what you say seems far more indicative of your cognitive type. A few things here: 



The Typeless Wonder said:


> First, the emotions. I am not identified with them, but I do have them, intensely, shifting with every thought. My mood is up and down throughout the day, strongly. It would be fair to refer to my natural state as emotional chaos, and the people closest to me can't stand to have me around because I ruin everyone's equilibrium. Weirdly, I didn't even realize this was a problem for many years. I just thought I was being myself and that it was largely harmless. "Numbness" just doesn't apply to me according to any possible interpretation.


Seems irrational in the socionics sense of the word, also constructivist. Emotivists are more likely to adapt themselves to the moods of others. 



> I do not identify with "peace" at any level. I don't need to be peaceful. Actually as a value, I'd estimate it's one of the worst ones. To me, it's often a sad compromise of oneself, and I have limited patience for those who promote it, including many of the people I was raised with. I'm very willful, and not in the stubborn way associated with 9s, but in a more directly rebuffing way. If I were a 9, I'm not sure why I would have started so many fights within my own family unit, for instance, and why they were so much less comfortable with it than I was.


Could be gamma, definitely seems to point to Se over Ne and especially away from alpha (Ne-Fe-Si-Ti types). Alpha has issues breaking up with people and family in this way. 



> I mean I guess I could be a bipolar 9w8 or something. I do often have a sense of my own irrelevance to others. *I do feel like I'm wasting my life piddling around, inertia does exist within me, and I am very withdrawn. I guess I could be, though I'd wonder how it happened.*


IP temperament: 

*Typical characteristics*
-relaxed
-go-with-the-flow
-finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy
-movements are flexible, unhurried
-little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods

IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.
As introverts, IPs tend to be relaxed and somewhat passive about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative.

Did you ever consider being some kind of IxTJ, leaning INTJ? Some stuff that you wrote about feelings here seems reminscent of tertiary Fi as well.


----------



## Paradigm

sarahmariev said:


> And @_Paradigm_, I know some people like Helen Palmer, but I think her descriptions are are a bit stereotypical. So far my favorites are _The Essential Enneagram _by David Daniels and, like I mentioned before, _The Enneagram of Passions and Virtues_ by Sandra Maitri. Naranjo's _Character and Neurosis_ is a difficult read, but I find the Trait Structure sections pretty insightful (his descriptions of Six are actually very relatable for me). Riso and Hudson's revised and expanded _Discovering Your Personality Type_ is decent as well.


I think Palmer is okay. Never read Daniels. Couldn't get through Maitri due to the spirituality; I kept heckling her as I read. Naranjo just annoys me.

Though, frankly, after four years I'm really done with reading the books  I'm unlikely to try to actually analyze them again at length.



> As far as the Harmonic groups go, I really like how they're described here. This source emphasizes that the Competency Triad is about working around the context of rules when problems arise and not being competent per se, while they call the Reactivity Triad the Emotional Realness/Intensity Triad. I'm emotional, but when stuff goes down I generally go into problem solver mode and do the whole "let's solve this like sensible, mature adults" thing.


I relate far more to type 6 in those descriptions. But that might be bias; one of the first things I related to type 6 was based on the battle of autonomy and dependence. I have a strong drive for autonomy, while still wanting a lot of help.

Rules and I are meh. I'll follow them if I agree with them or see the point, and I'll ignore them if I don't. I'll half-ass the ones that the cost is too high to not follow. But I don't have an overwhelming desire to follow them (which is often attributed to both 1 _and _6). So I guess I could get behind type 3 in that Competency group, but not 1 as it's written there.

And the thing with 1 is that I am very, very lazy. I don't channel myself into activities or whatever. I sort of discussed that last time in one of the bullet points. Which reminds me:



> _however, I do tend to feel guilty and if there are things I should be doing it's going to be in the back of my mind._


I find these things relatively easy to let go of and/or forget about. No doubt I feel guilt when I remember I have to do it, mostly if it's involving other people and I've let those people down, but things slip my mind very easily, and I don't obsess about what "needs doing."



> Um, I suppose we could get into integration/disintegration lines, too...do you feel a connection to Three? I kind of felt Nine, but never could see Three at all.


Nah, I have a connection to 3. It's even full of shame and self-annoyance. I _hate_ the way I want attention, or how I get jealous when others get recognition. When I disintegrate, I get unconscionable and bulldoze my way through things. 

The problem with 1 -> 4 is two-fold: I have a 4 fix, which is obvious, and my previous trauma and current triggers are inherently 4-like. When trauma is taken out of the equation, I honestly can't recall feeling like I've disintegrated to 4, but the 3 is easy to see. But my reaction to my trauma (and triggers) was to _heavily _withdraw, which I would say is common regardless of type.



> Let me know if I'm being too intense here. I'd really like to help you and I think it's useful for me as well


I don't mind :laughing: I apologize if I'm ever a bit laconic about it (especially atm, I'm a little sleep-deprived ._. )

---



The Typeless Wonder said:


> Yeah, you do kind of sound 1ish based on that. But, I could see another type with strong frustration fixes saying the same thing to be fair. Thanks for sharing; if you'd like to tell me why you think 6 > 1, I'll listen of course.


If you didn't see:
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...stype-revelation-thread-166.html#post11857322


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I envy @_Animal_ for being born knowing her purpose. God gave me a lot of things, but not that.


I do feel lucky for that _sense_ of purpose. But at the same time, it's a cruel cosmic joke that I had such a thing innately (or it was given to me, depending on your world view) ... and then it was taken away.

I knew what it felt like to have a sense of purpose and feel that nothing could stop me, and then I was crushed and forced to redefine myself, to live on without this thing that was so innate to me. My flesh survived, but my spirit was undead. But I learned that it wasn't just my _voice_ that was missing. It was my _sense_ of purpose, and that was something I could get back.

Around that time I kept writing in my diary while tripping on LSD: _Loss of sense of self_.

I realize now I did not lose my sense of 'self' but rather my sense of purpose and identity; my means through which to express my sense of self. I look back at my photos and artwork around that time, and surely I was very in touch with my feelings and thoughts, and expressing myself very clearly. I was not "losing my sense of self by merging with others" for example. I was very much alone, isolated, and seeking to understand who I was without my voice. The only other choice was to live a dishonest life or die.

I suppose I've had a unique life in the sense that I had a strong purpose and then lost it, but having had it, gave me some direction in seeking and understanding what I needed to get back, and what its true nature was.

Two recent tweets:

_I rose from the ashes when I looked in the mirror and saw that I am more than my singing voice. My essence is my voice. It can still sing.

I am more than an artist, muse, animal & dreamer. I am also a woman, human & friend. Now that I accept this, my heart cannot mislead me._
__

That second point is crucial and a recent lesson. My simple _humanity_ was never enough to define me. This is something I took for granted until I realized others were not this way.

I guess what I'm saying is, there were things I was lacking in my outlook too. I had purpose, but not simplicity. I had symbolism, but not humanity. My strong sense of purpose and loss of it set me apart from everyone else. So I had identity and expression, but not communication.

We all start somewhere and move somewhere. For me, the direction to move was to see what I do have in common with everyone, and to understand (at least intellectually, though I can't really accept it) that I'm enough as a woman and a human, and I don't need to be super-me or a symbol of myself in order to exist. I truly feel that I don't _exist _unless I am expressing it, symbolizing it, finding meaning in it. This is, simply put.. not true. It is a lifestyle choice and a personal need, but it is not a universal truth. As long as I understand that it is a choice, and I am not bound by it, I may choose to continue on the path of being a symbol because it works for me. But I am empowered now by understanding that I _actively choose_ it.


One way to type yourself might be to figure out what you started with, where you need to move, and what has helped you grow. Also, which choices you have made which help you, and which work for you. We stay in our enneagram types because they _work _for us. That is the nature of fixation. The empowerment one can gain from enneagram study is understanding that these are choices. They are compulsions that bind us, for better or worse, unless we can see them for what they are.

If you are willing to share that even in an abstract sense, it might shed some light.


----------



## Hespera

For what it's worth @Paradigm, it does seem like you just have a 1 fix and are probably not a 1. I suppose it's almost a mirror of the 6-1 dynamic in my own tritype (with me having such a strong 6 fix that I identify with it very strongly, versus you identifying strongly with 1 while most likely being a 6). 

I have to wonder if I was so attached to being a 6 because after loosely mistyping as a 4, 6's emphasis on the superego was like a cold, hard, refreshing slap in the face. I've always had an artistic soul, but lacked the artistic temperament, which I greatly denied as a teenager. I deeply wish I were spontaneous and creative, yet I'm actually a very uptight "good girl" who puts a lot of stock in being right. Reading 1 descriptions, I totally rejected being so angry and controlled; even though my family's most common insult for me is that I'm self-righteous it was easier for me to think that I was more the sweet, loyal, slightly neurotic 6 than the anal, joyless 1 (these are obviously gross oversimplifications of the type, but irrational thoughts are irrational thoughts).

Re-evaluating and working with type 1 has been painful but really important for me. I'm much too hard on myself and take far too much responsibility for my family and their needs than I should and I've been going to therapy and Al-Anon to work on those issues. It's like I have to learn how to make mistakes and trust myself all over again.

I feel like I'm hijacking the thread, so that's all I'll say here unless you need any more feedback. Good luck!


----------



## mimesis

Animal said:


> I do feel lucky for that _sense_ of purpose. But at the same time, it's a cruel cosmic joke that I had such a thing innately (or it was given to me, depending on your world view) ... and then it was taken away.
> 
> I knew what it felt like to have a sense of purpose and feel that nothing could stop me, and then I was crushed and forced to redefine myself, to live on without this thing that was so innate to me. My flesh survived, but my spirit was undead. But I learned that it wasn't just my _voice_ that was missing. It was my _sense_ of purpose, and that was something I could get back.
> 
> Around that time I kept writing in my diary while tripping on LSD: _Loss of sense of self_.
> 
> I realize now I did not lose my sense of 'self' but rather my sense of purpose and identity; my means through which to express my sense of self. I look back at my photos and artwork around that time, and surely I was very in touch with my feelings and thoughts, and expressing myself very clearly. I was not "losing my sense of self by merging with others" for example. I was very much alone, isolated, and seeking to understand who I was without my voice. The only other choice was to live a dishonest life or die.
> 
> I suppose I've had a unique life in the sense that I had a strong purpose and then lost it, but having had it, gave me some direction in seeking and understanding what I needed to get back, and what its true nature was.
> 
> Two recent tweets:
> 
> _I rose from the ashes when I looked in the mirror and saw that I am more than my singing voice. My essence is my voice. It can still sing.
> 
> I am more than an artist, muse, animal & dreamer. I am also a woman, human & friend. Now that I accept this, my heart cannot mislead me._
> __
> 
> That second point is crucial and a recent lesson. My simple _humanity_ was never enough to define me. This is something I took for granted until I realized others were not this way.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is, there were things I was lacking in my outlook too. I had purpose, but not simplicity. I had symbolism, but not humanity. My strong sense of purpose and loss of it set me apart from everyone else. So I had identity and expression, but not communication.
> 
> We all start somewhere and move somewhere. For me, the direction to move was to see what I do have in common with everyone, and to understand (at least intellectually, though I can't really accept it) that I'm enough as a woman and a human, and I don't need to be super-me or a symbol of myself in order to exist. I truly feel that I don't _exist _unless I am expressing it, symbolizing it, finding meaning in it. This is, simply put.. not true. It is a lifestyle choice and a personal need, but it is not a universal truth. As long as I understand that it is a choice, and I am not bound by it, I may choose to continue on the path of being a symbol because it works for me. But I am empowered now by understanding that I _actively choose_ it.
> 
> 
> One way to type yourself might be to figure out what you started with, where you need to move, and what has helped you grow. Also, which choices you have made which help you, and which work for you. We stay in our enneagram types because they _work _for us. That is the nature of fixation. The empowerment one can gain from enneagram study is understanding that these are choices. They are compulsions that bind us, for better or worse, unless we can see them for what they are.
> 
> If you are willing to share that even in an abstract sense, it might shed some light.


What you describe is basically "self-creation"



Type 4 Level 1 said:


> *Level 1: The Inspired Creator
> *Of all the personality types, very healthy Fours are most in touch with impulses from their unconscious. They have learned to listen to their inner voices while remaining open to impressions from the environment. Most important, they are able to act without self-consciousness, and if they have the talent and training, are able to give their unconscious impulses an objective form in a work of art worthy of the name.
> Having transcended self-consciousness, very healthy Fours are free to become creative in the root sense of being able to bring something new into the world. Of course, profoundly creative moments come and go, because creativity is difficult to sustain. Nevertheless, at their best Fours are able to sustain creativity because they have transcended their self-consciousness, opening up the way to inspiration. They draw inspiration from the widest variety of sources, filtering the raw material of experience through the unconscious. In doing so, inspired Fours are like oysters, transforming all their experiences, even painful ones, into something beautiful. In their inspired creative work, healthy Fours become wellsprings of revelation for others, as if they were conduits through which the sublime passes into the world.
> Their creativity is paradoxical, because Fours are able to express the personal universally, in something that has resonance and meaning beyond what they intend when they create. By opening themselves to their hidden depths, Fours are able to express something true about themselves. Yet it is difficult for them to explain where their creativity has come from. Much of their knowledge about themselves and others has the quality of being an inspiration, something which comes to them spontaneously, completely, mysteriously, and beyond their conscious control.
> Being creative is not limited to artists, but is an important quality which everyone should try to awaken within themselves. The most important form of creativity is self-creation—renewing and redeeming the self by transcending the ego. It is the process of turning all your experiences, good and bad, into something more for your growth as a person. ("Be the kind of person on whom nothing is lost."—William James)
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...cription-fours-health-levels.html#post9757274


----------



## mimesis

Animal said:


> I'm so embarrassed that it got so long. I ended up editing it a bunch of times to try to cut it down.. but...gah.
> 
> And.. aw, that puts a whole other spin on your post.


Though I guess you do still have moments of self-consciousness  

Also, you haven't mentioned it often, but you have been exposed to critique and rejection at a very young age, which may seem "normal" to you (and I guess unavoidable), but I don't think it is something normal for any child to be exposed to at that age and which -if it does happen- often happens in a context of (verbal) abuse. I understand in your case (doing auditions) you can't call it abuse, but you still experienced rejection (often based on significance (e.g. appearance) rather than (intrinsical) competence) and needed to learn to cope with it.


----------



## Animal

mimesis said:


> What you describe is basically "self-creation"


:blushed:

Yes, this is definitely a process that occurs when I'm healthy and which I aim for when I'm not, when it feels out of reach.



mimesis said:


> Though I guess you do still have moments of self-consciousness


Before PerC there were a lot of topics I would not share with other people outside the context of art.. things about shame etc... I've opened up a lot. It can feel raw. O



> Also, you haven't mentioned it often, but you have been exposed to critique and rejection at a very young age, which may seem "normal" to you (and I guess unavoidable), but I don't think it is something normal for any child to be exposed to at that age and which -if it does happen- often happens in a context of (verbal) abuse. I understand in your case (doing auditions) you can't call it abuse, but you still experienced rejection (often based on significance (e.g. appearance) rather than (intrinsical) competence) and needed to learn to cope with it.


Yes.. this is so true. I love how you see through people and get to what's most important.

I experienced a lot of rejection outside that scenario as well... some of which I brought upon myself. For instance when my brother was born I was mad with jealousy, and I was mean to him until I turned about 8 and announced that i wasn't going to be mean to him anymore (I followed through 100% and never went back, but I continued being mean to my mother when she was "nicer to him" than she was to me. I also withdrew and started spending tons of time by myself writing fantasy or reading because I wasn't wanted in this world). Before that I terrorized him, probably traumatized him. I was not only mean but back and forth... when we played together we built our own universes and languages and had a great time, played war, I got him to play parts in my elaborate fantasies, he was very into toy guns and props.. but once my parents were involved I didn't want him to have ANY of MY attention so I would flip on him. He never knew what to expect from me and was probably terrified. Then when my mother complained I would stomp off because she loved him more. So of course she did her best, trying to protect him without hurting me, but I felt like she treated me like I was a monster. I was! What else could she do? So it was sort of .. "The fantasy of rejection leads to the same behavior that gets you rejected" - starting at home, and continuing on into my romantic relationships ad nauseum.


I am so used to feeling rejected and expecting rejection that the theater stuff was probably EASIER for me to cope with than other girls, in a way.


----------



## mimesis

Animal said:


> :blushed:


Why? It's great to see a real life example of that description I think. 




Animal said:


> Yes, this is definitely a process that occurs when I'm healthy and which I aim for when I'm not, when it feels out of reach.
> 
> 
> Before PerC there were a lot of topics I would not share with other people outside the context of art.. things about shame etc... I've opened up a lot. It can feel raw. O
> 
> 
> Yes.. this is so true. I love how you see through people and get to what's most important.
> 
> I experienced a lot of rejection outside that scenario as well... some of which I brought upon myself. For instance when my brother was born I was mad with jealousy, and I was mean to him until I turned about 8 and announced that i wasn't going to be mean to him anymore (I followed through 100% and never went back, but I continued being mean to my mother when she was "nicer to him" than she was to me. I also withdrew and started spending tons of time by myself writing fantasy or reading because I wasn't wanted in this world). Before that I terrorized him, probably traumatized him. I was not only mean but back and forth... when we played together we built our own universes and languages and had a great time, played war, I got him to play parts in my elaborate fantasies, he was very into toy guns and props.. but once my parents were involved I didn't want him to have ANY of MY attention so I would flip on him. He never knew what to expect from me and was probably terrified. Then when my mother complained I would stomp off because she loved him more. So of course she did her best, trying to protect him without hurting me, but I felt like she treated me like I was a monster. I was! What else could she do? So it was sort of .. "The fantasy of rejection leads to the same behavior that gets you rejected" - starting at home, and continuing on into my romantic relationships ad nauseum.
> 
> 
> I am so used to feeling rejected and expecting rejection that the theater stuff was probably EASIER for me to cope with than other girls, in a way.


I think that also shows how close 8 and 4 can be, in particular at that age, where at least in my view (not to say experience) it could have flipped either way. 



Naranjo Character & Neurosis said:


> If we understand the essence of envy as an excessively intense desire for incorporation of the “good mother,” the concept coincides with the psychoanalytic notion of a “cannibalistic impulse” which may manifest not only as a love hunger, but as a more generalized voraciousness or greediness.
> 
> Though a guilty and controlled greed is part of type IV psychology, it is no greater than the exploitative and uninhibited greed of type VIII, and not so peculiar to envious characters as is envy in Melanie Klein’s conception.


(To complete the picture of type Four). 
In my comparison earlier, I forgot to note, that this can work out somewhat different for Sx4 subtype with regard to the inhibition of lust/ aggression, and sometimes by Naranjo described as 'may look Eighter than Eight' or 'Cannibalistic'.

It's the introjected 'Bad' object that inhibits aggression/ lust, and even aims this aggression at oneself in stead (the anger of envy turned inward). 



Naranjo Character & Neurosis said:


> Also striking in type IV psychology (particularly as it is manifested in the therapeutic process) is the mechanism that Psychoanalysis calls “turning against the self” (roughly the same mechanism that Perls calls “retroflection”). While self-hating or self-rejection is implicit in the notion of an introjected “bad-object,” the idea of retroflection invites the thought that anger generated in consequence of frustration is aimed not only at the outer source of frustration (and to the original frustrator in one’s life) but also—in consequence of its introjection—at oneself.


As a cross-reference:
Shame is the negative energy of the Third Chakra, which revolves around Will power, Activity and Self-Definition. In other words shame blocks or compromises Will Power, Activity and Self-Definition.

Table Of The Seven Major Chakras

By which I mean to say, it's not so much either/or but a dynamic within itself or oneself. With type 8 the imbalanced chakra may be too dominant, aggressive, etc.


----------



## Golden Rose

After lots of visual typing, video typing, writing typing, regular typing and the fact I just slept through an entire day without even realizing it (and asked an empty house "Did I really sleep that much? Is the clock working properly?") I don't even know how or why I thought I could have sp as my second instinct! Everything's typed correctly, walk it off, walk it off!


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Animal said:


> I do feel lucky for that _sense_ of purpose. But at the same time, it's a cruel cosmic joke that I had such a thing innately (or it was given to me, depending on your world view) ... and then it was taken away.
> 
> I knew what it felt like to have a sense of purpose and feel that nothing could stop me, and then I was crushed and forced to redefine myself, to live on without this thing that was so innate to me. My flesh survived, but my spirit was undead. But I learned that it wasn't just my _voice_ that was missing. It was my _sense_ of purpose, and that was something I could get back.
> 
> Around that time I kept writing in my diary while tripping on LSD: _Loss of sense of self_.
> 
> I realize now I did not lose my sense of 'self' but rather my sense of purpose and identity; my means through which to express my sense of self. I look back at my photos and artwork around that time, and surely I was very in touch with my feelings and thoughts, and expressing myself very clearly. I was not "losing my sense of self by merging with others" for example. I was very much alone, isolated, and seeking to understand who I was without my voice. The only other choice was to live a dishonest life or die.
> 
> I suppose I've had a unique life in the sense that I had a strong purpose and then lost it, but having had it, gave me some direction in seeking and understanding what I needed to get back, and what its true nature was.


I understand why you could conceivably have felt that way. I get like this about the youth I spent isolated, depressed, and alone. I just wanted to be a normal young person, and this was utterly denied to me. The only thing I wanted, I was bitterly deprived of, Middle-aged now, I feel painfully shortchanged. It's all downhill from here out, you know?

I think in your case, the admirable thing is that you persisted despite your tragedy. You didn't let it break you; instead you reinvented yourself. There are a million and one singers out there, and most of them haven't overcome anything of your magnitude. You had something to give, and you found a way regardless, and most people can't say that.



> One way to type yourself might be to figure out what you started with, where you need to move, and what has helped you grow. Also, which choices you have made which help you, and which work for you. We stay in our enneagram types because they _work _for us. That is the nature of fixation. The empowerment one can gain from enneagram study is understanding that these are choices. They are compulsions that bind us, for better or worse, unless we can see them for what they are.
> 
> If you are willing to share that even in an abstract sense, it might shed some light.


I'd say something I have to learn is how to fit into larger society. I've struggled with isolation and the simple fact that my presence isn't necessary upon this earth, I've frittered half my life away being miserable, and self-pity reigns supreme. I've had body image issues since people first started telling me how disgusting I am. Getting older is not helping in that regard. That's why I've always felt that 4 and 5 make the most sense in terms of actually explaining me.

Heh, I've learned I'm terrible at making choices. Since I was old enough, I've decided everything for myself and have subsequently run my life into the ground, in an almost unerringly perfect pattern. I'd say that's my compulsion then. To make absolutely the worst possible choice, become headstrong about it, then wind up isolated and deprived. 

Or maybe I'm just feeling that way today. My interpretation of events seems to be dependent upon mood.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Flatlander said:


> Starting to see why someone else might've seen 9 in you. I might have more to say later, but for now I'm considering the idea of needing someone else or some other influence beyond yourself to give you purpose and what that implies about your type, also the inherent avoidance of conflict in your sentiment even if it wasn't directed toward typing. Being willing to stay someplace that hurts you simply to avoid the rest of life? 9s can be avoidant too.


Thanks for contributing.

In my case, what you say above, was really more about the dread of a worse future. I honestly believed after I graduated, I'd get all boring and have to join corporate America. It had nothing to do with conflict; it had to do with freedom. As long as I stayed at home, I was free. But staying at home meant living an hour away from everything. I found my own projects, but in retrospect, I wasted the utterly best times of my life. I knew this was happening at the time...but to do anything, I'd have to get a car, a job, an apartment...then that would make me an adult, right? Alas, had my family not been lower middle class and in the suburbs.

If people think I'm a 9, that's fine. I've been saying, and I'll continue to say, that of the nine types, I was most immediately sure I was not a 2, 3, and 9 (in about that order). Someone would have to tell me why:

- I created so much drama at home I was intolerable to the rest of my family (who are 9s and 9-fixers)
- My emotions are all over the place, on a daily basis. Extreme highs and lows. Not just my perception of them, but enough that it puts nearly everyone off. (This is also part of why I think not 5.) Most things I've read about 9s is that they somehow tamp their emotions down, and from what I've seen in my life, that's actually very true. They can be very "bland".
- I am annoyed with considerations of "peace" and "harmony". I've been abandoned on many levels because others would prefer to "keep the peace" and I simply can't imagine treating a loved one that way. If someone close to me were suffering, screw everything, I'm going to help that person. I look down on peace as a vice, actually.
- I don't sweep things under the rug. I can't. I've usually been the one to start shouting about how people were sweeping things under the rug (metaphorically, of course, and only within my own family unit). It doesn't take a lot of pushing before I start freaking out, actually.

And round and round I go. This is why 6 once made perfect sense. But I'm pretty sure that aint the case. I'm honestly tired of thinking about it; hence I have taken the username I have and just leave inane comments around the forum. Still, I appreciate your attempts to help, and am open to any further suggestions.



> You're not sharing a lot of meaning, though, so I probably won't get far with typing you. I suppose it probably pales in your m ind in comparison to your trauma, even if it's important to typing you.


What happened then was far more important to me than really resolving my enneagram type. But, it's an interesting question. Sorry I can't give you more meaning. In addition to what I explained earlier, I kind of feel like whatever I say will be biased through the filters of various ennea-lenses, thus making my statements less...authentic, somehow? Not that I'm deliberately lying, but that I have a paradigm through which I may subconsciously be speaking.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Entropic said:


> You know, what you say seems far more indicative of your cognitive type. A few things here:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems irrational in the socionics sense of the word, also constructivist. Emotivists are more likely to adapt themselves to the moods of others.
> 
> 
> 
> Could be gamma, definitely seems to point to Se over Ne and especially away from alpha (Ne-Fe-Si-Ti types). Alpha has issues breaking up with people and family in this way.
> 
> 
> 
> IP temperament:
> 
> *Typical characteristics*
> -relaxed
> -go-with-the-flow
> -finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy
> -movements are flexible, unhurried
> -little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods
> 
> IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.
> As introverts, IPs tend to be relaxed and somewhat passive about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative.
> 
> Did you ever consider being some kind of IxTJ, leaning INTJ? Some stuff that you wrote about feelings here seems reminscent of tertiary Fi as well.


Thanks.

I made this, which may prove more fruitful than enneagram discussions.

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ll-me-why-i-actually-have-type-what-type.html


----------



## mimesis

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Alas, had my family not been lower middle class and in the suburbs.


You mean, it was beyond your control? Or not meant to be?


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

mimesis said:


> You mean, it was beyond your control? Or not meant to be?


Sorry, I'm not clear on the question, what is "it"?

I was just expressing my regret with that remark. Obviously, my mothers' refusal to work and my fathers' refusal to advance in his career were well beyond my control no matter how much I egged them to change (and I actually did). I actually feel like something else _was_ meant to be, and I missed the boat entirely.


----------



## mimesis

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Sorry, I'm not clear on the question, what is "it"?
> 
> I was just expressing my regret with that remark. Obviously, my mothers' refusal to work and my fathers' refusal to advance in his career were well beyond my control no matter how much I egged them to change (and I actually did). I actually feel like something else _was_ meant to be, and I missed the boat entirely.


I think you answered the question, thanks. If you don't mind me asking, what else was meant to be?


----------



## Golden Rose

Did I just say I was completely sure of my entire typing? Well surprise!  
I'm thinking I might have a strong 8 fix instead than a 1 fix for a lot of reasons I'm more than willing to discuss and an entire tritype check (other than my core/MBTI/socionics/instincts that are pretty much obvious to everyone) wouldn't definitely hurt, even better if I can get it all out before Mafia starts.


----------



## Chesire Tower

@The Typeless Wonder, I'm gonna suggest sx 5w4.


----------



## Paradigm

Hespera said:


> I deeply wish I were spontaneous and creative, yet I'm actually a very uptight "good girl" who puts a lot of stock in being right. Reading 1 descriptions, I totally rejected being so angry and controlled; even though my family's most common insult for me is that I'm self-righteous it was easier for me to think that I was more the sweet, loyal, slightly neurotic 6 than the anal, joyless 1 (these are obviously gross oversimplifications of the type, but irrational thoughts are irrational thoughts).
> Re-evaluating and working with type 1 has been painful but really important for me. I'm much too hard on myself and take far too much responsibility for my family and their needs than I should


:laughing: I don't actually relate much at all to that -- except for wanting to be more creative. I rarely take responsibility for other people, for example. I tend to think everyone is responsible for their own life and needs, and while I can offer my help and advice, it's not like I'm the source for their actions. I'll feel responsible only if I made a promise. 

It almost makes me want to ask if you've considered a 2w1 fix. Or maybe it's more of a SOC thing?

The most common insult for me varies. My friends say I'm too critical; my family thinks I'm too idealistic. Oh, and too "unemotional," that one comes from everyone. _Super _hard for me to show how I'm feeling, say what I'm thinking. 

Honestly, I'd _like _to be core 1, but it's not to be. Just a strong fix, like you said. 



> I feel like I'm hijacking the thread, so that's all I'll say here unless you need any more feedback. Good luck!


Lol you're not. If nothing else, think of it as helping anyone else who might be confused by 1 vs. 6!


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Chesire Tower said:


> @The Typeless Wonder, I'm gonna suggest sx 5w4.


Thanks, how do you see that?


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

mimesis said:


> I think you answered the question, thanks. If you don't mind me asking, what else was meant to be?


I can't help but thinK I was supposed to have interactions with other people my age, like normal human beings. Friends, parties, sex, wild times, whatever it is that crazy young people do that I didn't do. In my 30s, I'm really feeling the necessity to become a boring adult, and the fact that I wasted my youth torments me to the point of contemplations of suicide (yes really). Is this what life is supposed to be? Am I supposed to be completely isolated, abandoned by my family, little employment, and no real future prospects? People my age are raising families and going on about how they never knew life could be "so rich", and all I see is a barren wasteland behind me, and a far worse one ahead of me. And I knew that when I was young, and it tormented me then too. Except now I can't go back. Ever. There is _no hope._

Well so much for the regrets of one middle-ager. But because you asked.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Except now I can't go back. Ever. There is _no hope._


Well, there might be. Even if it doesn't feel like that. Idk.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Kink said:


> Well, there might be. Even if it doesn't feel like that. Idk.


Well you can't stop the progression of age. I've suffered enough health crises to understand that I actually have to start settling down. Most people my age aren't much fun anymore, and most people younger than me see me as middle-aged, thus excluding me.

I sometimes feel like I'm learning the lessons of Type 3 in reverse--instead of realizing that appearances and outward markers of success don't matter compared to the person inside, I'm learning that success if often obtained, and the person inside is often obscured, by appearances. LOL! Maybe I AM a Nine!! But what used to come easily to me in the world...no longer does.


----------



## Hespera

Paradigm said:


> It almost makes me want to ask if you've considered a 2w1 fix. Or maybe it's more of a SOC thing?


I've looked into 2, but I'm not sure that it resonates. I could just be resisting the fact that my mom is a stereotypical 2 (so much Fe as well!) and I don't think I'm that much like her; on the other hand, I'm not sure that I'm giving enough or seductive enough to really have 2 in the mix. I mean, taking care of people does make me feel good and I'm definitely starting to see the wing there, but I have a feeling it's the SO (and a lot of conditioning--although I've always sought to be likeable, being around my mom and waitressing really bring it out). I'm pretty positive I've got a 4w5 fix (which was super obvious when I was a teenager. Happened to listen to some Evanescence last night while I read old journals and couldn't stop wincing).


----------



## Animal

Hespera said:


> I'm pretty positive I've got a 4w5 fix (which was super obvious when I was a teenager. Happened to listen to some Evanescence last night while I read old journals and couldn't stop wincing).


Amy Lee is a Sexual 6.


----------



## FourLeafCloafer

Permission to criticize my selftyping granted.


----------



## mimesis

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I can't help but thinK I was supposed to have interactions with other people my age, like normal human beings. Friends, parties, sex, wild times, whatever it is that crazy young people do that I didn't do. In my 30s, I'm really feeling the necessity to become a boring adult, and the fact that I wasted my youth torments me to the point of contemplations of suicide (yes really). Is this what life is supposed to be? Am I supposed to be completely isolated, abandoned by my family, little employment, and no real future prospects? People my age are raising families and going on about how they never knew life could be "so rich", and all I see is a barren wasteland behind me, and a far worse one ahead of me. And I knew that when I was young, and it tormented me then too. Except now I can't go back. Ever. There is no hope.
> 
> 
> Well so much for the regrets of one middle-ager. But because you asked.



Thanks. I'm sorry you feel that way. I grew up feeling I was denied a 'normal' life too, from a very young age. Or even stolen from as a victim, and something I (deep down) felt entitled to. I had friends, played in a band, had sex, parties, wild times and all, but still contemplated suicide (opt-out), because I was consumed with what was lacking. Me and my friends were ambitious and some of us had a creed or mantra (or toast) 'Death or Gladioli', referring to gladiators who would fight each other to death, and of whom the winner would be showered with flowers (Gladioli). Though, it was not so much to express fighting spirit, (sure we felt we were suffering and struggling) but it was more meant to say 'if I can't have the flowers, if I can't have it all, I'd rather die'. At one point, I didn't just contemplate, because I wasn't able to value what I had, and believed it was just not meant to be for me. Ever.


----------



## Animal

mimesis said:


> I had friends, played in a band, had sex, parties, wild times and all, but still contemplated suicide (opt-out), because I was consumed with what was lacking.


I know this feel too. 

Nothing will ever make up for losing my voice.
Most people would say "Well your story is sad, you had a Broadway voice and ANYONE would be hurt by losing it..."

yeah, yeah. That's true. But what of the years of my life before that? My childhood, which I spent miserable because I was hated and rejected. My early teenage years, during which my voice was amazing and I was moving ahead with the career of my dreams, but I filled an ENTIRE DIARY with a suicide note and gave all my stuff away in the note etc... when I was 14.. because I was ugly.. and the only reason I didn't kill myself is because I wrote a beautiful song that night and I wanted to record it and give it to the object of my affection (who would never want me) before I kill myself? And what of the fact that I spent my whole life wanting to punch the mirror... until I lost my voice... and now I don't even care anymore that I'm not gorgeous, because even if I were gorgeous, I'd still SOUND ugly, so it wouldn't make any difference?


My outlook isn't that bad. I do appreciate what I have. But I know what you're both saying, too. Not a day has passed in my life that I'm not looking at pictures of myself from a few years prior and feeling like "THAT is when I was really alive.. NOW I am slowly dying."

Case in point, my avatar picture. Me and my alter ego, 2007.

But in 2007, I was looking at pictures of myself in 2003, and feeling like I had died since then. And in 2002, I was making art collages out of self portraits from 1998-2001... when I was "still so intense and alive" .. and during that period, all of my art was super-imposed with pictures from when I was still innocent, before I lost my voice in 1996..

blrg.


----------



## rainrunner

I have typed myself as 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 9 before. No idea anymore. I doubt anyone on here notices me, but I made a thread here if anyone is up for the challenge of picking a type for me.


----------



## Golden Rose

Karma said:


> Did I just say I was completely sure of my entire typing? Well surprise!
> I'm thinking I might have a strong 8 fix instead than a 1 fix for a lot of reasons I'm more than willing to discuss and an entire tritype check (other than my core/MBTI/socionics/instincts that are pretty much obvious to everyone) wouldn't definitely hurt, even better if I can get it all out before Mafia starts.


 @Lunar Light helped me realize and confirm that I actually have an 8 fix, whether 8w7 or 8w9 is up to debate (though I have an idea already) but definitely both the single fix and the whole tritype actually fit me so much better. Even more so when if we consider that I typed my gut as 1 due to a single, uncharacteristic event and while I understand my 1 core boyfriend perfectly, our drives and ways to deal with anger are much different. I lack that strong moral attitude too. But yes, that was great and explains why I'm this weird sxy cross between Margaery Tyrell and Katherine Pierce or my inability to get along with my 1w2 sp father vs my 8w7 soc grandfather.


----------



## Golden Rose

Aren't double posts just _lovely_? *smashes Wi-Fi*


----------



## Kisshoten

Well... I kinda don't care about fixed and stuff...But...I guess it would make for interesting conversation... to kill the boredom and to get some of that sweet, sweet attention. XD


----------



## Hespera

Double post


----------



## Hespera

Animal said:


> Amy Lee is a Sexual 6.



Thanks, I think I remember reading that somewhere. It's more that Evanescence's music reminds me of my teen years when, whether because of all the emotion and angst or perhaps fueled by it being my disintegration point, I felt and acted incredibly 4-ish. I used to do all sorts of things, especially writing and listening to music, in order to feel as much emotion as I could. I was also that age when I started studying enneagram and personality, so it makes some sense why I mistyped (although I do think it's in my tritype).


----------



## Hespera

rainrunner said:


> I have typed myself as 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 9 before. No idea anymore. I doubt anyone on here notices me, but I made a thread here if anyone is up for the challenge of picking a type for me.


I'm sorry you don't think anyone on here notices you :sad:. Being ignored is the worst.

I read through your questionnaire, but I have to warn you that I'm most well-versed in types that I've considered for myself and already researched (1, 6, 7, a little bit of 4 and 2). I'm not as good at typing as a lot of other people on here (can't think of any off the top of my head, but when I do I'll try to tag them in your post). I'm also not sure that there's enough there for me to confidently choose a type for you, although it does definitely seem to reinforce your instinctual stacking.

I'm thinking 5. Not sure of wing, but I could see either 4 or 6 (perhaps slightly more 6 since you emphasis loyalty and fairness a bit more than individuality). It could just be your SP, but independence and knowledge seem to be very important to you. You seem to withdraw and emphasize competence, which also point to 5 (I don't really see 3 at all, except in that emphasis on being the best you can be). There also seems to be a connection to 7 (that need to escape) and perhaps 8 (your relationship to conflict could be a sign that integrating to a strong, direct 8 would be good for you).

Anybody else?


----------



## rainrunner

Edit: Wrong thread. See my typing thread for the response.
@Hespera - Thanks for responding! I responded in my typing thread.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Animal said:


> I know this feel too.
> 
> [post]
> 
> blrg.


I feel your post so much sister.

This is exactly what I was doing last night. Looking at old facebook photos from 2007. "Wow, I looked so good then, what was I complaining about?" "Life was so much better when I was young and free". In 2007 I wished I was 18, young and free, again. (When I was 18 I wished I were a kid for the same reasons. when I was a kid, I was rejected and miserable and thus spent the better part of my 20s thinking I was ugly, which in retrospect, I actually wasn't but I'll never get that time back now). 

I know a few years from now I'll be saying the same thing of myself again about 2014. It's not that I'm ungrateful for what I do have (which, objectively speaking, is shockingly little compared with most). Even small things like being able to sleep in till 9 with my new job are reasons for small celebrations. But it's the _constant loss_. It's like something is constantly being taken away by the universe--youth, time, energy, whatever...and there's no way to stop it. All you can do is cling to the little you still possess and try not to care when even that is taken from you, or you can just sort of let go and free fall, like some sort leaf pirouetting to the ground to die. 

Crappy nature metaphor I know, but leading me to the conclusion I should have just died tragically young and tragically beautiful. Everything after that is a long, slow death, never fully appreciating what we had till it's gone. And once it's gone, nothing can ever make up for it.


----------



## Golden Rose

Vergil said:


> Well... I kinda don't care about fixed and stuff...But...I guess it would make for interesting conversation... to kill the boredom and to get some of that sweet, sweet attention. XD


We should Skype about it! And 8w7 > 8w9 for me, I think.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I keep wondering about my own instinctual stacking. :bored: It's so easy to see me being neurotic about everything, so I think I've considered pretty much any stacking variant by now.


----------



## Flatlander

@_rainrunner_

My loose opinion of your questionnaire, after reading it over, is that you're a 3 with a 9 fix, which explains some of the contradictory nature you see about yourself but the needs that drive you still seeming to be mostly in that arena. 3w4 seems to suit so far, which adds another withdrawn influence to the mix, and there's nothing saying a 3 can't be relatively withdrawn anyway - screw the tropes.

What brings the need for others' attention to your type? What drives your search to type yourself?


----------



## Animal

Hespera said:


> Thanks, I think I remember reading that somewhere. It's more that Evanescence's music reminds me of my teen years when, whether because of all the emotion and angst or perhaps fueled by it being my disintegration point, I felt and acted incredibly 4-ish. I used to do all sorts of things, especially writing and listening to music, in order to feel as much emotion as I could. I was also that age when I started studying enneagram and personality, so it makes some sense why I mistyped (although I do think it's in my tritype).


I've read so many articles about people feeling 4ish in their teenage years and warning against typing at 4 at that time.  Hehe. I think this is the first time someone has actually told me this though.

It makes sense for sure.

It's funny because I never typed at 4 until I was 33 years old. I first encountered enneagram at age 21 and typed first at 7w6 (briefly, because a 7 who had met me only once told me I was a 7) ... and then at 5w4. People in my school, where we had an enneagram culture - most of them told me to type at 4. Once the 7 got to know me he said I wasn't a 7, but he suggested 5 as an alternative to 4 because the other two 4s in we knew were EVEN MORE OPENLY SELF DESTRUCTIVE than I was ( a feat!) ... and I really didnt want to be a 4, plus I related to types 7 and 8, so I begrudgingly put a 4 wing on my 5 and called it a day. Then when I came to PerC I typed at a few other numbers before 4. It's so funny because I'm probably the only person on Earth who typed at 4 AFTER I worked through my angst and got on a better life path.


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> (When I was 18 I wished I were a kid for the same reasons. when I was a kid, I was rejected and miserable and thus spent the better part of my 20s thinking I was ugly, which in retrospect, I actually wasn't but I'll never get that time back now).


UGH! I think about this all the time. In my 20s I thought I was ugly, and now I look back at my pictures and say why was I so unconfident???? I fucked up my love life in a way I can never fix because I thought i was ugly and undeserving.. I fucked up everything.. so much.. because of this issue. As a musician and performer, I could have used my looks so much more. And I look back and my body was pretty good and I had long nice hair which has now fallen out from illness. What the hell! I wasted all those years hating myself.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I feel your post so much sister.
> 
> This is exactly what I was doing last night. Looking at old facebook photos from 2007. "Wow, I looked so good then, what was I complaining about?" "Life was so much better when I was young and free". In 2007 I wished I was 18, young and free, again. (When I was 18 I wished I were a kid for the same reasons. when I was a kid, I was rejected and miserable and thus spent the better part of my 20s thinking I was ugly, which in retrospect, I actually wasn't but I'll never get that time back now).
> 
> I know a few years from now I'll be saying the same thing of myself again about 2014. It's not that I'm ungrateful for what I do have (which, objectively speaking, is shockingly little compared with most). Even small things like being able to sleep in till 9 with my new job are reasons for small celebrations. But it's the _constant loss_. It's like something is constantly being taken away by the universe--youth, time, energy, whatever...and there's no way to stop it. All you can do is cling to the little you still possess and try not to care when even that is taken from you, or you can just sort of let go and free fall, like some sort leaf pirouetting to the ground to die.
> 
> Crappy nature metaphor I know, but leading me to the conclusion I should have just died tragically young and tragically beautiful. Everything after that is a long, slow death, never fully appreciating what we had till it's gone. And once it's gone, nothing can ever make up for it.


I tend to get deja vu feelings a lot and this is doing that to me. =/

Somethings tells me I will be thinking these same things in the near future, because, well, I've already started with reminiscing about the past in a not-so-pleasant way. But there is nothing I can do now. Or.. so it seems. =/

There is only a way forward and I will try to forget my past so that my future is not consumed with regret.


----------



## Kisshoten

Karma said:


> We should Skype about it! And 8w7 > 8w9 for me, I think.


Ha.. hmm.. 

ehh.. that might be hard.. coz.. I've kinda... gotten into a MOBA in a very obsessive way. Like.. unhealthy obsessive.

How about we get into it here? I don't really know what else I can do about this... without taking a couple of months at least to get back on skype and stuff. 

=/


----------



## Golden Rose

Vergil said:


> How about we get into it here? I don't really know what else I can do about this... without taking a couple of months at least to get back on skype and stuff.
> 
> =/


Sure, that would be great! When we both have time, let's have some hardcore enneadiscussions in here and we can talk about fixes, instincts and other interesting things that you want to share. I'm kind of busy too these days so this works for me


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Animal said:


> UGH! I think about this all the time. In my 20s I thought I was ugly, and now I look back at my pictures and say why was I so unconfident???? I fucked up my love life in a way I can never fix because I thought i was ugly and undeserving.. I fucked up everything.. so much.. because of this issue. As a musician and performer, I could have used my looks so much more. And I look back and my body was pretty good and I had long nice hair which has now fallen out from illness. What the hell! I wasted all those years hating myself.


I'm going through a massive round of this right now. regret, I mean. The kind that you can feel in your body and leaves you limp. Which I never experienced prior to this. Yeah, I fucked up my love life too, so utterly that I never even had one. Too late now.

*HUGS*



Vergil said:


> I tend to get deja vu feelings a lot and this is doing that to me. =/
> 
> Somethings tells me I will be thinking these same things in the near future, because, well, I've already started with reminiscing about the past in a not-so-pleasant way. But there is nothing I can do now. Or.. so it seems. =/
> 
> There is only a way forward and I will try to forget my past so that my future is not consumed with regret.


You _will_ be thinking those things, I'm sorry to say. I wish someone had told me these things when I was young. Not to depress you, but it is a reality to be faced eventually. The last of my youth was ripped asunder by extreme circumstances (I'd actually say it accelerated the aging process), turning me into a haggard, middle-aged wreck over night. What's sad is, that's all people see--some angry adult with deep facial lines, that's probably a drug addict, and who needs to learn self-control. They don't see how I became this.

Enjoy what you have while you have it so that the next stage of life can be even better. Embrace the moment, for life is short and joy is transient. And don't do something so stupid that a better future becomes improbable. All the best to you.


----------



## Animal

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I'm going through a massive round of this right now. regret, I mean. The kind that you can feel in your body and leaves you limp. Which I never experienced prior to this. Yeah, I fucked up my love life too, so utterly that I never even had one. Too late now.
> 
> *HUGS*


I had a sex life, but I fucked up my love life to the point where I didn't have one after highschool. I... loved, powerfully and madly, but I didn't have the wherewithal to face the trials because I imagined I would be rejected and "the fantasy of rejection leads to the very behavior that gets you rejected" etc..... disgusting..

*Hugs*


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> You _will_ be thinking those things, I'm sorry to say. I wish someone had told me these things when I was young. Not to depress you, but it is a reality to be faced eventually. The last of my youth was ripped asunder by extreme circumstances (I'd actually say it accelerated the aging process), turning me into a haggard, middle-aged wreck over night. What's sad is, that's all people see--some angry adult with deep facial lines, that's probably a drug addict, and who needs to learn self-control. They don't see how I became this.
> 
> Enjoy what you have while you have it so that the next stage of life can be even better. Embrace the moment, for life is short and joy is transient. And don't do something so stupid that a better future becomes improbable. All the best to you.


I won't be thinking it if I die by then 
Although, that wouldn't be any kinda of premeditated death, I assure you. 

Anyhow, my problem is that I can't live the life everyone else around me is living right now - job, arranged marriage, kids, buying a house, a car, etc. I am not prepared to live a life I am actively unhappy in, even though that is what most people do and it's worked out for them. Romantically, my differences make me... unwanted as a partner. Most often people don't see me as approachable (they're pretty much scared shitless). Of course, I don't know why this is the impression I give even though I am generally minding my own business and smile too. Whether or not anyone would consider dating me is a long way off. I also don't want to have children.. which is a big deal out here, especially because parents suddenly want to become grandparents and what better way to do it than emotionally blackmail your kids to have kids so that you can seek sweet revenge by making them go through the horrors of child-rearing. 

I also have some issues with my appearance. I'm average looking I guess... but I feel undesirable. I won't say ugly.. but yeah, undesirable, and my experiences have only served to somewhat reinforce the notion that I may be undesirable. This leads me to be a shut-in who plays video games all day because anything else seems nigh impossible.


----------



## Kisshoten

Karma said:


> Sure, that would be great! When we both have time, let's have some hardcore enneadiscussions in here and we can talk about fixes, instincts and other interesting things that you want to share. I'm kind of busy too these days so this works for me


Great..!

So, I'm currently with 1w9 and 4w3. Pretty sure about 1w9 although I am open to discussion. 4w3 seemed like the least unseemly heart fix to me. Nothing else about it.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> I won't be thinking it if I die by then
> Although, that wouldn't be any kinda of premeditated death, I assure you.


I said the same thing. I was honestly sure I'd have shit together or be dead by this time. I honestly thought I'd die young. Ooops.



> *Anyhow, my problem is that I can't live the life everyone else around me is living right now - job, arranged marriage, kids, buying a house, a car, etc. I am not prepared to live a life I am actively unhappy in, even though that is what most people do and it's worked out for them. Romantically, my differences make me... unwanted as a partner. Most often people don't see me as approachable (they're pretty much scared shitless). Of course, I don't know why this is the impression I give even though I am generally minding my own business and smile too. Whether or not anyone would consider dating me is a long way off. I also don't want to have children..* which is a big deal out here, especially because parents suddenly want to become grandparents and what better way to do it than emotionally blackmail your kids to have kids so that you can seek sweet revenge by making them go through the horrors of child-rearing.
> 
> *I also have some issues with my appearance. I'm average looking I guess... but I feel undesirable.* I won't say ugly.. but yeah, *undesirable, and my experiences have only served to somewhat reinforce the notion that I may be undesirable. This leads me to be a shut-in who plays video games all day because anything else seems nigh impossible*.


Whole life story up till the age of 25 or so. 

Then I graduated, got unemployed, left in search of adventure and found Hell instead. Somewhere along the way I got old. And I still have to resolve all the issues I had before now, in addition to this major "quarter life crisis". I guess I can offer the following idea--Don't do what I did.

But isn't it funny how these experiences are similar across type? There seems to be 4ness in common, at least on here.

Also, I agree, I don't want to get married or have kids, but it occurs to me--am I going to die isolated and alone? What if "marriage and kids" is the meaning to life I've been seeking? What if settling down and having a family is that secret magical unknown thing I've been searching for all these years? And why didn't I know it? Do I have to surrender freedom to find happiness and connection? (I'm not saying it is, but it's something I didn't consider before). What if that's really what life is about?? 

*doesn't know*


----------



## Animal

@_The Typeless Wonder_ @_Vergil_

I intend to get married when I meet the man of my dreams. If I never meet him I will write about him and hope and hope and hope until I whither away. I have no intention of having kids, however. 

My chosen purpose in life is my novels and albums. I've written enough songs (and albums, with concepts and pictures accompanying, etc) .. that it would take me 10 years of solid audio/studio time to record all of them, but I also have a fantasy trilogy (which could easily be six or ten or twenty books afterwards)... so I am sure even if I never come up with a NEW idea or NEW song again, I will have enough meaningful work to keep me busy for a lifetime. What I am afraid of is that at some point I'll have to find a way to make money which will take away time from my passion work... so hopefully I will have a hit song or book before that..enough to tide me over. My needs are minimal outside my medications which are expensive. 


But it still hurts, even though my life has meaning... it still hurts that I have ruined my chances for love. I had chances. I fuck up the thing I want most. The closest I can come to _loving_ is writing about love.

Truly pathetic.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I said the same thing. I was honestly sure I'd have shit together or be dead by this time. I honestly thought I'd die young. Ooops.
> 
> 
> Whole life story up till the age of 25 or so.
> 
> Then I graduated, got unemployed, left in search of adventure and found Hell instead. Somewhere along the way I got old. And I still have to resolve all the issues I had before now, in addition to this major "quarter life crisis". I guess I can offer the following idea--Don't do what I did.
> 
> But isn't it funny how these experiences are similar across type? There seems to be 4ness in common, at least on here.
> 
> Also, I agree, I don't want to get married or have kids, but it occurs to me--am I going to die isolated and alone? What if "marriage and kids" is the meaning to life I've been seeking? What if settling down and having a family is that secret magical unknown thing I've been searching for all these years? And why didn't I know it? Do I have to surrender freedom to find happiness and connection? (I'm not saying it is, but it's something I didn't consider before). What if that's really what life is about??
> 
> *doesn't know*


I already started to do what you did.. XD 

And i'd rather die than have mundanity and captivity be my purpose in life.. =/

And..! I'm not sure that is necessarily 4-ish.


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## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> @_The Typeless Wonder_ @_Vergil_
> 
> I intend to get married when I meet the man of my dreams. If I never meet him I will write about him and hope and hope and hope until I whither away. I have no intention of having kids, however.
> 
> My chosen purpose in life is my novels and albums. I've written enough songs (and albums, with concepts and pictures accompanying, etc) .. that it would take me 10 years of solid audio/studio time to record all of them, but I also have a fantasy trilogy (which could easily be six or ten or twenty books afterwards)... so I am sure even if I never come up with a NEW idea or NEW song again, I will have enough meaningful work to keep me busy for a lifetime. What I am afraid of is that at some point I'll have to find a way to make money which will take away time from my passion work... so hopefully I will have a hit song or book before that..enough to tide me over. My needs are minimal outside my medications which are expensive.
> 
> 
> But it still hurts, even though my life has meaning... it still hurts that I have ruined my chances for love. I had chances. I fuck up the thing I want most. The closest I can come to _loving_ is writing about love.
> 
> Truly pathetic.


Hey.. m guessing most ppl would marry if they met their dream match. But that's the catch, isnt it? DREAM match...

I don't want to hope i'll find this dream match only to wind up disappointed in the end. For disappointment is worse than death.. XD


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## Animal

Vergil said:


> Hey.. m guessing most ppl would marry if they met their dream match. But that's the catch, isnt it? DREAM match...
> 
> I don't want to hope i'll find this dream match only to wind up disappointed in the end. For disappointment is worse than death.. XD


I _will_ meet him. And I will love him. And he will love me.

:crying:


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## Golden Rose

Vergil said:


> Great..!
> 
> So, I'm currently with 1w9 and 4w3. Pretty sure about 1w9 although I am open to discussion. 4w3 seemed like the least unseemly heart fix to me. Nothing else about it.


I definitely agree with a strong 1w9 fix, especially after bingeing on Naranjo and discovering my own strong 8w7 fix, I can agree that 1 > 8 for you and it would explain why you have so much trouble with 8-like anger and the way you repress your own. Not so sure about your heart type because I can see both 3 and 4 working for you, we could read more into 4w3 vs 3w4 if you want.


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## Kisshoten

Karma said:


> I definitely agree with a strong 1w9 fix, especially after bingeing on Naranjo and discovering my own strong 8w7 fix, I can agree that 1 > 8 for you and it would explain why you have so much trouble with 8-like anger and the way you repress your own. Not so sure about your heart type because *I can see both 3 and 4 working for you, we could read more into 4w3 vs 3w4 if you want.*


Yeah.. I get that a lot. As in, more people see 3 in me than any other type. Some even proposed it for core some 2-3 years back (I didn't ask for others opinions on core after that.. kukuku). XD

Can u temme wat is so 3 like? I have.. difficulty seeing anything 3 like. I am a strongly anti-image under-achiever... and I am not into 'goals' or meeting those goals or gloating about those goals, or public opinion.


----------



## Purrfessor

Vergil said:


> Okay...I can safely say I am not a 2.
> 
> Time for the gory details, I guess.
> 
> Growing up, my primary motivation was to _not_ get my ass whooped by my mom or my dad. My mom could be appeased by being a straight-As student with the perfect cursive handwriting, perfect public speaking skills, etc. I didn't have to work hard to get that (I'm a natural at most things. ), but I had to take a lot of thrashing (literal thrashing) to get there. My dad was largely lost in his own world of going to work, reading his novels, watching TV, etc. unless my mom was heard yelling at me (which served as a distraction to his precious TV viewing) in which case he would insert himself and lock me out of the house for a couple of minutes, or break something or yell at me in that booming, loud voice of his to scare the shit out of me. So, I had to be extra careful not to piss either party off.
> 
> My concerns included being entertained most of the time without slipping in a way that got the wrong kind of attention from either of my parents. The right kind of attention I hardly received. The teachers and kids at school knew me as intelligent, talented, arrogant, etc. and my mother would receive feedback occasionally, which only served to not make her punish me. Otherwise, there was barely any.. acknowledgment or even appreciation of the actions I had taken to successfully occupy the position she so desperately wanted me to occupy. My father wasn't much involved in my affairs. He had no idea about what I was doing at school, what was my situation at school, who were my friends (or, even whether I had any friends).
> 
> I often wondered what the fuck was the problem with my mom. Because, well, I was pretty much a straight As kid and my mother never said any encouraging words to me. It was always 'you're gonna end up a nobody and I'll be blamed for it all,' or 'Everyone is going to say 'she's a bad mother,' 'she didn't raise her child right,' or 'i'll end up begging people to get you into college and you will never amount to anything.' My peers failed classes in primary school, but their parents always seemed to love them even if they weren't happy with their performance. They even gloated about something their children did - like playing a sport, singing, dancing, something - but my mother usually remained tongue tied about all the stuff I did. I actually really did doubt whether either of my parents did truly love me. At least, in my mom's case I wondered why she wouldn't love me like other kids' parents loved their kids. I mean, if I was in trouble I'd go to her and she'd help.. after thrashing me or scolding me first.. but she'd usually stick up for me. But... I don't know.. it never felt right. My dad... well, I always thought he didn't care. (I know now that such is not the case, but the damage is done and I can't see past all the hurt anymore).
> 
> I only grew close to my mother when I was a teen and my dad was away in another town on account of work. That's when she had no one but me and I've never had anyone but her - even now, sadly. That was also the time around which I stopped caring about whether or not I could ever be the all-rounder kid she wanted me to be. I was happy with Bs and I didn't bother with anything she had to say. All her scolding, shaming.. it just didn't matter to me anymore, although it did serve to.. kinda.. enrage me once in a while.
> 
> That was also the time I got the balls to really stand up to my dad and his antics. I grew irreverent. He couldn't stand it. My mother would talk me down but.. I didn't usually surrender because I saw reason. I'd do it for her, because she doesn't like to see us arguing. She knew that and eventually she just stopped interfering. Around this time, my father did try to get close to me but I wouldn't let him. He'd missed the train.
> 
> ...
> 
> I think that's enough for now.
> 
> Go ahead, people, ensnare yourselves in the grisly particulars of my childhood. XD
> 
> @_Karma_^^


Ok well I think this will be an easy choice for you knowing that you're not a 2. A 2 and a 4 are both selfish hearts. A 3 is a selfless heart. A 3 desires what others desire. A 3 looks at the hearts of others more than their own. A 4 is the opposite. A 4 is very concerned with what he or she wants - just as a 2. You talking about your parents doesn't reveal much to us because it's beating around the bush of the true effect your parents have on you. Do you want the acceptance of your parents? Or do you want the acceptance of yourself? Do you fight for their approval? Or do you disagree with their level of approval? Why are you speaking of your parents? What is their effect on you?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Karma said:


> You don't have the cynical outlook of a 9w1, that secret wish to get over your laziness and indecision and set up some rules for yourself and rising your standards, you have that kind of lust for love and fun and life and badassness that 8 have although you're often too withdrawn and insecure to go get it.


Hmm, 9w1 is generally more cynical outlook than 9w8?


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## Golden Rose

sweet disaster said:


> @Karma could you help me out a little too? :3 I consider myself 9w8 6w7 2w3 Sx/Sp, but not totally sure.


Sure! I don't think we've ever talked before so do you want some more info about your tritype in general or do you want to share something about yourself and the ways you relate to it, just so that we can figure it out and eventually confirm it? Either way works for me 



Vergil said:


> Hmm...but then...hmm...
> You've at least elaborated why you think 3 over 4 although... I am still not sure.
> 
> I mean, I don't see myself as the least bit driven, the least bit achievement oriented or anything. The image I have can be chalked up to typical narcissism....What say you, ay or nay?
> More inputs welcome ~


Hmmm... but narcissim is a huge part of both type 3 and 2, they aren't all necessarily over achievers in the stereotypical ruthless CEO kind of way, although I definitely see a lot of 4 in you since you care a lot about being true to yourself... it's just that I don't detect much envy or their particular brand of solace in misery and constant self doubting which often translates to anger and contempt in case of sx 4s. But, like I said, it's probably your least developed fix and probably watered down by your core and gut fix, not all of us develop them the same way (I can be extremely 8ish and I easily gave off a wrong 7 impression). Hope that more input will help us work this one out!



Vergil said:


> Okay...I can safely say I am not a 2.


Actually, I have to disagree with Stelli because I definitely had the subtle rebellious attitude against my family while still trying to win their love in every way (sometimes faking it until I made it) and 2s are definitely prideful and wishing to fit in and rise above, to the point that we change our identities constantly and unconsciously. The main difference between a 2w3 and a 3w2 is that 3s are extremely conscious of the masks they're wearing while 2s are more delusional, 2s are more sexual than 3s often "seducers" in nature although both types can rely a lot on sexuality. Sx 2w3s are by far more assertive and aggressive than 3w2s (who are more focused on maintain their image and people's favor) due to their line to type 8 and the fact that 2s are often overly confident to the point of delusion while 3s turn their lingering insecurities into confidence.

I'll answer to the gory details later, I gotta go and I don't want to give you some kind of unfocused review. <3



Kink said:


> Hmm, 9w1 is generally more cynical outlook than 9w8?


Maybe not necessarily cynical but they definitely come across as more serious than 9w8.


----------



## Kisshoten

Stelliferous said:


> Ok well I think this will be an easy choice for you knowing that you're not a 2. A 2 and a 4 are both selfish hearts. A 3 is a selfless heart. A 3 desires what others desire. A 3 looks at the hearts of others more than their own. A 4 is the opposite. A 4 is very concerned with what he or she wants - just as a 2. You talking about your parents doesn't reveal much to us because it's beating around the bush of the true effect your parents have on you.


I've never had trouble accepting myself. I'm a core 7. I am extremely selfish. I always have been. 

I wrote about my childhood in the hopes that maybe it would help you see a heart fix more distinctly. Of course, I can't tell what details will necessarily allow you, or anyone else, to analyze me in order to suggest a fix. 




> Do you want the acceptance of your parents?


Not acceptance as much as a sense of being loved and cared for.



> Do you fight for their approval?


I've had to fight in... uncharacteristic ways... to save myself from their disapproval. 



> do you disagree with their level of approval?


I wasn't really into doing exactly what my parents told me or to do exclusively the things that my parents forbade. I did whatever I felt like doing really strongly and frankly, strong feelings about doing X or Y have never been my forte. I've done most things because I didnt have anything better lined up. 



> Why are you speaking of your parents?


I had very few friends when I was young and have no siblings. I have a lot of cousins and relatives but they'd hardly visit because we lived further away from the rest of them. It was usually my family that was expected to go over to the rest of them for family reunions and stuff.. and that usually happened every once in 2 years or so. Basically, my parents were pretty much the only source of social interaction for me outside of school.

EDIT: They comprise the so called external world for me, in large part. I have trouble giving an "I felt like ..." without referencing something external because I am extroverted. 



> What is their effect on you?


I don't want to be like either of them coz there are things about both that I can't stand. 

EDIT: tbh, this line of inquiry is going to send you spinning in a loop because everything you can ask, that I can respond to, will reflect more of my core than anything else. I just don't know what else to do. It is kinda why I didn't really care too much about fixes. But.. like I said, I was bored and I always love attention ... provided it is the kind of attention i like.


----------



## Purrfessor

Vergil said:


> I've never had trouble accepting myself. I'm a core 7. I am extremely selfish. I always have been.
> 
> I wrote about my childhood in the hopes that maybe it would help you see a heart fix more distinctly. Of course, I can't tell what details will necessarily allow you, or anyone else, to analyze me in order to suggest a fix.
> 
> 
> 
> Not acceptance as much as a sense of being loved and cared for.
> 
> 
> I've had to fight in... uncharacteristic ways... to save myself from their disapproval.
> 
> 
> I wasn't really into doing exactly what my parents told me or to do exclusively the things that my parents forbade. I did whatever I felt like doing really strongly and frankly, strong feelings about doing X or Y have never been my forte. I've done most things because I didnt have anything better lined up.
> 
> 
> I had very few friends when I was young and have no siblings. I have a lot of cousins and relatives but they'd hardly visit because we lived further away from the rest of them. It was usually my family that was expected to go over to the rest of them for family reunions and stuff.. and that usually happened every once in 2 years or so. Basically, my parents were pretty much the only source of social interaction for me outside of school.
> 
> EDIT: They comprise the so called external world for me, in large part. I have trouble giving an "I felt like ..." without referencing something external because I am extroverted.
> 
> 
> I don't want to be like either of them coz there are things about both that I can't stand.
> 
> EDIT: tbh, this line of inquiry is going to send you spinning in a loop because everything you can ask, that I can respond to, will reflect more of my core than anything else. I just don't know what else to do. It is kinda why I didn't really care too much about fixes. But.. like I said, I was bored and I always love attention ... provided it is the kind of attention i like.


Yeah I understand. My mind fix was very hard to pinpoint. You can use probability though. 3w2 is totally out of the question. So there is only 3w4, 4w3, and 4w5 to work with. Unless you also narrowed down the 4w5 in which case you have two options. Honestly, I think it's 4w3. 

Btw are you confused with 7 wing as well? Or do you feel that you don't lean too much in either direction?


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## Kisshoten

Stelliferous said:


> Yeah I understand. My mind fix was very hard to pinpoint. You can use probability though. 3w2 is totally out of the question. So there is only 3w4, 4w3, and 4w5 to work with. Unless you also narrowed down the 4w5 in which case you have two options. Honestly, I think it's 4w3.
> 
> Btw are you confused with 7 wing as well? Or do you feel that you don't lean too much in either direction?


Yeah, well, I have never really considered 4w5.. I don't even remember why. 

About the wings of 7 - I have a clear opinion on what my wing could be but then there is no certainty or even any real gain (other than perhaps an entertaining conversation) to be had by going into it in much detail. Typing at plain old 7 serves the purpose enough. 

I'm currently leaning w8. So, I guess 7w8 1w9 xwx sx/sp would be my full tritype. The 7w8 1w9 makes for an interesting combination. At least judging from the descriptions of the wings of 7 I can say I don't really relate to either wing, less so to the w6 than the w8. 

Open to suggestions about that, too, but that's only because there is always another way of looking at stuff, not because I don't know.


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## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> A 2 and a 4 are both selfish hearts. A 3 is a selfless heart. A 3 desires what others desire. A 3 looks at the hearts of others more than their own. A 4 is the opposite. A 4 is very concerned with what he or she wants - just as a 2.


What about a 4w3?


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## Alette

Stelliferous said:


> OMG. )))))))))) so cuuuuute!!


I love the picture too!


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## Purrfessor

Animal said:


> What about a 4w3?


Well I would think that it's like my 2w3 where I focus mostly on self but there's a smaller percentage of focusing on others. I realized the even numbers are self-focused and the odd numbers are outer focused. With the exception of 9 because it's special. I think 9 should be 0 but that's another story. So no matter your even number, your wing is odd. So there is no complete focus on self with an even number. The difference in wings is where your outer focus goes so a 4w5 would look outward in a cerebral and questioning way but a 4w3 would look outward in an attaching way. A 4 is the most self focused of the even numbers. Order is 8, 2, 4 (6 doesn't belong due to integration theory). And a 4 integrates to an odd number because of the extreme of self-focus. The odd numbers degree of outer focus: 1, 7, 5 (3 and 9 not included for same reason) and 5 integrates to an even number because of its extreme of outer-focus. And what's also interesting is the uniqueness of the 369 bunch: 3 is only outer focused heart, 6 only inner focused mind, and 9 only mix of inner and outer focus (which is why it shouldn't be an odd number and instead zero). 

So yeah 4w3 would be primarily concerned with looking inward for acceptance and looks outward only to enhance (aka confirm/reassure) of the acceptance. A 3w4 would primarily look outward for acceptance and only look inward for that self reassurance. A 4w5 looks outward not for reassurance but for taking a break from self because 5 and 4 are opposite in terms of focus. Maybe I'll create an illustration on paint to explore this perspective more. 4w5 and 5w4 seem just too opposite to be a thing. I've seen so many identify as having both 4w5 and 5w4 but I'd label it just 5 and 4. I don't recall any person identifying with only one of the two. Ok I'm going to construct a diagram.


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## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> I've seen so many identify as having both 4w5 and 5w4 but I'd label it just 5 and 4. I don't recall any person identifying with only one of the two. Ok I'm going to construct a diagram.


Cool! Interesting stuff. 

I've never identified as 4w5-5w4. During the time I had both 4 and 5 in my proposed tritype, it was 4w3 and 5w6. When considering possible fixes, I figured if I'm a 4w5 I definitely have a 6 or 7 fix. If I'm a 4w3 I COULD have a 5 fix. Having both 4w5 and 5w4.. no way.. It is very extreme and I suspect many people who identify that way are doing it on a superficial basis.

That being said, I'm not sure I agree that 4 and 5 are that much more different than 4 and 3. They're just different in different ways, and similar in different ways.

Can't wait for the diagram


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## heavydirtysoul

Karma said:


> Sure! I don't think we've ever talked before so do you want some more info about your tritype in general or do you want to share something about yourself and the ways you relate to it, just so that we can figure it out and eventually confirm it? Either way works for me


Thank you! I have an old typing thread, if you might want to check it out: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/354234-solve-puzzle.html

I relate to sx/sp 9w8 description, but don't have enough knowledge to exclude 9w1, and completely unsure of being 2w3 instead of 2w1 for the lack of in-depth knowledge as well. While I definitely can narrow down 6w7 as my head fix, yet again I am not advised enough to say there's absolutely no way I could be any other. Maybe, in the end, we are all unknowable even to ourselves, but I shiver thinking how easy it is to confuse a tiny part for the whole and to be completely wrong, not only about myself, but about people, in general, to have a wicked understanding. Couldn't it be the reason of my constant uncertainty?

Lately, I've been challenging my "self-proclaimed" dominant sexual instinct by coming to the terms where my life doesn't have to revolve around somebody, in order, for me to be happy. There's a whole world out there; places and things to fall in love with, endless perspectives, and higher purpose. However, there is still a flicker of desire to have _that one significant person_. On the whole, I think that life is a task that requires absolute focus and thirst for immediate action. 

Considering humanity, I believe that each person is a receptacle of duality governed by the balance of light and darkness, and, what is truly beautiful to me in a very powerful way, is being able to blur the line between good and evil, life in harmony with both.

*else, I'm thinking I talk too much*


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## d e c a d e n t

@Stelliferous
So 5 would be outer focused? In what way?


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## Swordsman of Mana

@Stelliferous
you don't strike me as sturdy enough to be a 1. you seem more 9w1/6 of the "let's all exist in harmony and get along!" variety. 1w9 is a bit more formal, austere, not so much togetherness oriented. 


@Karma
I still can't see the 8w7 fix, not by a long shot :tongue: you are too compassionate and not power seeking enough (8 fixed Sexual 2 is more survivalist and prone to antisocial tendencies. think Katherine Pierce)


@Animal 
whatever your type is, it's very similar to whatever mine is (though I'm a bit more 1-heavy and you're more 4-heavy). it doesn't surprise me that @Naqsh thinks we're exactly the same type


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## Swordsman of Mana

double post


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## Purrfessor

@Animal ok so I was making the diagram and it came out like a triangle and when I was near finished I noticed a problem with it. The problem was that it's 2 dimensional. I need to create it in 3 dimensions. It's going to be more complicated than I thought. But I think it will help a lot in helping people understand how the numbers fit together. I'm going to download a free 3d design software. I think why we have so much confusion is because we're looking at the enneagram in 2d, though in many different 2d perspectives. It's like trying to construct a shape only looking at the surfaces (which is a bunch of triangles) so I'm going to create a 4 sided pyramid looking thing. I don't know the shape name but it's not a normal pyramid because it has 4 sides instead of 5.
@Swordsman of Mana You may be right but first I must construct this diagram to find out. Perhaps my perspective of myself will change after further analysis from this perspective I'm trying to gain.


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## Purrfessor

Kink said:


> @_Stelliferous_
> So 5 would be outer focused? In what way?


At first glance, 5 looks inner focused because it is withdrawn. But unlike a withdrawn 4, a withdrawn 5 looks away from the self. 7 also looks away from the self because it is looking for filling in the hole in the mind. A 5 fills the hole in with data and a 7 fills the hole in with finding and achieving joy. A 6 would be inward focused, thinking about the self. Each type is both selfless and selfish but that's not the point - the point is where the attention is at. A 5 and 7 are both looking for something and a 6 is looking at how the self relates to what is around it - safety. So as a 5 and 7 are both looking to fill in the hole, the 6 is looking to not fall in a hole.


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## cinnabun

@Animal are you a typing genius? Because damn girl you sound like you know what you're talking about. Teach me senpai:ninja:.


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## Purrfessor

xdollie. said:


> @_Animal_ are you a typing genius? Because damn girl you sound like you know what you're talking about. Teach me senpai:ninja:.


She's a typing _animal._


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## cinnabun

*Is dumbass*

Help me become a spiritual snow leopard like yourself.


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## Animal

xdollie. said:


> @_Animal_ are you a typing genius? Because damn girl you sound like you know what you're talking about. Teach me senpai:ninja:.


Hehe. I'm not a genius. I've read Maitri, Palmer, RH, Naranjo, (multiple books by some) in entirety. Now reading Chestnut, read most of a book by Ichazo.. have read Condon, Rhodes, and other excerpts online, and looked into Gurdjieff. (though I still can't spell it right.) So it's not that I'm a genius, I just did my homework. But also my parents are psychiatrists, but not the rigid kind. My father used to be a famous rockstar. They're the kind who have discussed my .. bizarre experiences.  So I guess all my life I was talking in a kind of language and looking through a deeper psychological lens, always asking WHY people do things. And on top of that I write books, so I've spent time really dissecting my shitty/ flat characters to make myself a better writer and really exploring the good ones. I'm also a music addict all my life and write songs.. and it's a very deep emotional exploratory process.. so I guess you could say this type of thinking and feeling and exploring is a lifestyle choice that extends beyond enneagram, which is why I take well to it.

But no I'm not a genius, nevertheless. I mistyped a few times and still debate my tritype. 

I will say this - usually if I have a STRONG impression or feeling about someone, it tends to be right. If I have to pick it apart and "think about it" I can mess up. But as long as it's a process of absorption and percolation, there will be honest insights. They just have to come at their own time.



But I'll gladly answer any questions I am able 

And thank you <3


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## Arya

Stelliferous said:


> At first glance, 5 looks inner focused because it is withdrawn. But unlike a withdrawn 4, a withdrawn 5 looks away from the self. 7 also looks away from the self because it is looking for filling in the hole in the mind. A 5 fills the hole in with data and a 7 fills the hole in with finding and achieving joy. A 6 would be inward focused, thinking about the self. Each type is both selfless and selfish but that's not the point - the point is where the attention is at. A 5 and 7 are both looking for something and a 6 is looking at how the self relates to what is around it - safety. So as a 5 and 7 are both looking to fill in the hole, the 6 is looking to not fall in a hole.


No a six is trying to figure out if there is a hole in the first place. If there is even a hole and they know what it is and where it is then they can avoid it. Or they can be like me and just dive in head first because maybe it isn't so dangerous after all. If only I had enough certainty to believe the hole even exists. I can go on wishing.


----------



## cinnabun

Animal said:


> Hehe. I'm not a genius. I've read Maitri, Palmer, RH, Naranjo, (multiple books by some) in entirety. Now reading Chestnut, read most of a book by Ichazo.. have read Condon, Rhodes, and other excerpts online, and looked into Gurdjieff. (though I still can't spell it right.) So it's not that I'm a genius, I just did my homework. But also my parents are psychiatrists, but not the rigid kind. My father used to be a famous rockstar. They're the kind who have discussed my .. bizarre experiences.  So I guess all my life I was talking in a kind of language and looking through a deeper psychological lens, always asking WHY people do things. And on top of that I write books, so I've spent time really dissecting my shitty/ flat characters to make myself a better writer and really exploring the good ones. I'm also a music addict all my life and write songs.. and it's a very deep emotional exploratory process.. so I guess you could say this type of thinking and feeling and exploring is a lifestyle choice that extends beyond enneagram, which is why I take well to it.
> 
> But no I'm not a genius, nevertheless. I mistyped a few times and still debate my tritype.
> 
> I will say this - usually if I have a STRONG impression or feeling about someone, it tends to be right. If I have to pick it apart and "think about it" I can mess up. But as long as it's a process of absorption and percolation, there will be honest insights. They just have to come at their own time.
> 
> 
> 
> But I'll gladly answer any questions I am able
> 
> And thank you <3


<33333333 *melts*

Hm, interesting. What is your tri-type?

And, I know we haven't spoken much, but do you have any impressions of my type?


----------



## Purrfessor

Arya said:


> No a six is trying to figure out if there is a hole in the first place. If there is even a hole and they know what it is and where it is then they can avoid it. Or they can be like me and just dive in head first because maybe it isn't so dangerous after all. If only I had enough certainty to believe the hole even exists. I can go on wishing.


6 is just a massive ball of confusion.  It hurts to think about. It was hard for my to describe what a 6 would look like, thinking about the self dominantly. Yeah, I have a wing 6 and I think about myself. But that's to attain a different goal. I think about myself to rid myself of worry for awhile. Then I end up worrying about something else because I didn't quite have it together yet so I have to find more information on myself and it's annoying. So I actually STOP thinking about myself for awhile and I think about other things until I need to think about myself again. I keep getting pulled back to myself to figure some things out then I leave again. But a 6 would dwell in itself. It's so weird for me to understand. I can't quite figure out what it is a 6 actually desires. Desire not to desire? Because desiring leads to danger/loss/surrendering control of mind?


----------



## Purrfessor

So I found out that I lost all my knowledge on how to operate this damn 3d design software that I learned years ago. Ugh looks like I'm going to make a series of 2d drawings. :/ *grabs paper and pen*


----------



## Golden Rose

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Karma
> I still can't see the 8w7 fix, not by a long shot :tongue: you are too compassionate and not power seeking enough (8 fixed Sexual 2 is more survivalist and prone to antisocial tendencies. think Katherine Pierce)


But Katherine Pierce (that I adore, as you can tell) is a vampire with nothing to lose, I'm an image type in a public forum with different objectives, more concrete examples would be Regina George or Mini McGuinness from Skins that my boyfriend pretty much said acts a lot like me. I deal with anger and life in general in an extremely 8-ish way, I was talking to Animal about that and this is why I strongly believe she's 8 fixed, as well, image types tend to want to mimic the type they want to be and I used to be much, much, much meaner as a teenager. I'm obviously not a 9 but I don't have the self-restrained anger, grudgy attitude and strong morality of a 1 either, it's more a temper/assertiveness that explodes and dies extremely quickly, that kind of 2-like opportunism that means extremely well and gets ridiculously protective of the right people. I could be wrong but I really don't have that square morality and 'grit your teeth and bear it silently' attitude that 1-fixers have, I'm more like 'smash it until you make it and earn your love'... with a lot of need for control and not be seen as weak that still gets me in trouble.


----------



## Cescafran

Consent given for sure


----------



## Animal

@xdollie.

what is your current assessment of your tritype and why?

i definitely see 7w6 core hands down. I will elaborate soon - im at work then sleep but in the meantime, would love your current thoughts, as extensive as you are willing


----------



## Arya

Stelliferous said:


> 6 is just a massive ball of confusion.  It hurts to think about. It was hard for my to describe what a 6 would look like, thinking about the self dominantly. Yeah, I have a wing 6 and I think about myself. But that's to attain a different goal. I think about myself to rid myself of worry for awhile. Then I end up worrying about something else because I didn't quite have it together yet so I have to find more information on myself and it's annoying. So I actually STOP thinking about myself for awhile and I think about other things until I need to think about myself again. I keep getting pulled back to myself to figure some things out then I leave again. But a 6 would dwell in itself. It's so weird for me to understand. I can't quite figure out what it is a 6 actually desires. Desire not to desire? Because desiring leads to danger/loss/surrendering control of mind?


Yeah it's worse when you're an introvert like me. Extroverted sixes aren't quite as bad. No, I'm fine with desire. I'm not really afraid of that. Sixes are looking for something that is stable or certain. But having desires isn't so bad. You can be hurt, but personally pain makes life more meaningful. But I guess 6w7 has more tendencies to escape pain. I think about myself to be certain I guess. I'm never exactly certain what I want, so I tend to think about that a lot.


----------



## cinnabun

Animal said:


> @_xdollie._
> 
> what is your current assessment of your tritype and why?
> 
> i definitely see 7w6 core hands down. I will elaborate soon - im at work then sleep but in the meantime, would love your current thoughts, as extensive as you are willing


Sure ^^

My current thoughts of my tri type are: 7w6-4w3-8w9.

Although, I'm open to the possibility of type 2/9 instead of the 4/8.

Before I realised I was a type 7, I was convinced I was a type 2 for the longest time. I can't remember why O_O but I was like "OMG YES I AM SO CARING LUL" but honestly, I don't give a shit about most people XD.

Still, perhaps there is some 2 in there. I'd say 4 because I can relate to wanting to be special and noticed. If I'm in a social environment, and if I'm not the life of the party, I feel ignored and out of place. I want to be entertaining people, I want to be the funniest/most interesting person there. I guess that's part of being a 7, but I can see it in a 4 way as well? Not sure. I read that 4w3 is conflicting of wanting to be noticed, but also wanting to hide in the background. Kinda like me too, sometimes ^^

I know I have an 8 _somewhere_ in my tri-type, just not sure where. For the longest time I thought I was 7w8, because I want to be seen as strong and powerful. I can't handle being seen as weak. Showing my fears/vulnerabilities to people makes me feel sick. I need to be in control (of my emotions). If I let my Fi get the better of me, I become really angry with myself and I feel stupid. It's so weird and conflicting. I have this complex of being strong, but I'm really soft at the same time. I read the section of type 8's on here (and I can kinda relate to it, not completely, since it's not my core type) but the fear section spoke to me on a spiritual level. 

Type 8's are fiercly protective of those they care about - very true. I get carried away and I've started fights with people for assuming they were crossing a friend or loved one. I don't hold back if I think someone is hurting someone I care about. I go after them in a very 8 way. With myself though, it's different. If people want to mess with me I don't really give a fuck. I just let them get on with it and ignore them. However, if they do something that goes against my values, or if they do something that strips me of my powerful image, and reduces me to feeling weak and vulnerable, I need to break a bitch. Nobody makes me feel inferior, and that bitch will pay for it. I've been told I'm aggressive like an 8 multiple times, and I can be intimidating (but it's more on here that I get told that). I'm not as independent as an 8 though, and I don't thrive on challenges. I'm far too lazy for that shit, and prefer to live out ideas in my head rather than go and do them. This is what made me realise I was a 7w6, and also the fact I was repressing my inner anxious/dreamer self to be seen as more confident and bolder than what I actually am XD.

My main problem with the body type was deciding between 8 and 9. Overall, 8 seemed too brash for me, but 9 was too soft. I felt I was maybe in between. I definitely do not have a type 1 in my tri-type, and I relate to type 8 more than type 9. Reading the description for 8w9 seems to fit me nicely ^^. 

Lol sorry, long ^^.


----------



## Animal

@_xdollie._ 
So much to say but I've been awake for 26 hours so I will do this asap.
Thank you for the explanation. <3 It's helpful and gives me a lot to work with


----------



## cinnabun

Animal said:


> @_xdollie._
> So much to say but I've been awake for 26 hours so I will do this asap.
> Thank you for the explanation. <3 It's helpful and gives me a lot to work with


I look forward to your length reply. 

For now, please rest, magesfic snow leaopard <3.


----------



## Animal

xdollie. said:


> I look forward to your length reply.
> 
> For now, please rest, magesfic snow leaopard <3.


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


>


_Oh my god I want to curl up with that kitty so bad and hug it and squeeze it and it'll be mine and I'll call him Greg

EEEEE
_


----------



## Purrfessor

Paradigm said:


> _Oh my god I want to curl up with that kitty so bad and hug it and squeeze it and it'll be mine and I'll call him Greg
> 
> EEEEE
> _


He looks like a Greg.


----------



## Golden Rose

Vergil said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Growing up, *my primary motivation was to not get my ass whooped by my mom or my dad*. My mom could be appeased by being a straight-As student with the perfect cursive handwriting, perfect public speaking skills, etc. I didn't have to work hard to get that (I'm a natural at most things. ), but I had to take a lot of thrashing (literal thrashing) to get there.
> 
> My concerns included being entertained most of the time *without slipping in a way that got the wrong kind of attention* from either of my parents. *The right kind of attention I hardly received. The teachers and kids at school knew me as intelligent, talented, arrogant*, etc. and my mother would receive feedback occasionally, which only served to not make her punish me. Otherwise, *there was barely any.. acknowledgment or even appreciation of the actions I had taken to successfully occupy the position she so desperately wanted me to occupy*. My father wasn't much involved in my affairs. He had no idea about what I was doing at school, what was my situation at school, who were my friends (or, even whether I had any friends).
> 
> At least, in my mom's case I wondered why she wouldn't love me like other kids' parents loved their kids. I mean, if I was in trouble I'd go to her and she'd help.. after thrashing me or scolding me first.. but *she'd usually stick up for me. But... I don't know.. it never felt right.*
> 
> I only grew close to my mother when I was a teen and my dad was away in another town on account of work. That's when she had no one but me and I've never had anyone but her - even now, sadly. *That was also the time around which I stopped caring about whether or not I could ever be the all-rounder kid she wanted me to be. I was happy with Bs and I didn't bother with anything she had to say. *All her scolding, shaming.. it just didn't matter to me anymore, although it did serve to.. kinda.. enrage me once in a while.
> *
> 
> That was also the time I got the balls to really stand up to my dad and his antics. I grew irreverent.* He couldn't stand it. My mother would talk me down but.. I didn't usually surrender because I saw reason. I'd do it for her, because she doesn't like to see us arguing. She knew that and eventually she just stopped interfering. Around this time, *my father did try to get close to me but I wouldn't let him. He'd missed the train. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Karma^^


7w8 1w9 3w4 sp/sx or sx/sp, I bolded all of the parts that strike me as extremely 3-like.



sweet disaster said:


> Thank you! I have an old typing thread, if you might want to check it out: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/354234-solve-puzzle.html
> 
> I relate to sx/sp 9w8 description, but don't have enough knowledge to exclude 9w1, and completely unsure of being 2w3 instead of 2w1 for the lack of in-depth knowledge as well. While I definitely can narrow down 6w7 as my head fix, yet again *I am not advised enough to say* there's absolutely no way I could be any other. Maybe, in the end, we are all unknowable even to ourselves, but *I shiver thinking how easy it is to confuse a tiny part for the whole and to be completely wrong, not only about myself, but about people, in general, to have a wicked understanding. Couldn't it be the reason of my constant uncertainty*?


Strong 6 fix, I can definitely see you as a core 9 because of the way you deal with your insecurities and the source of them, they aren't the kind of trust or irrational anxiety that a core 6 constantly deals with, although you have a lot of six in you and it shows, but they're still fueled by confusion, lack of direction and not wanting to step on anyone's toes. The sheer politeness of your statements (and I can tell it's not staged like mine often is/was) just bleeds 9 all over the place.



> Lately, I've been challenging my "self-proclaimed" dominant sexual instinct by coming to the terms where my life doesn't have to revolve around somebody, in order, for me to be happy. There's a whole world out there; places and things to fall in love with, endless perspectives, and higher purpose. However, there is still a flicker of desire to have _that one significant person_. On the whole, I think that life is a task that requires absolute focus and thirst for immediate action.


I can see a soc/sx instinct, especially since you still crave that kind of polarizing focus on another person but you drown it in your need to meet people, see the world, explore endless possibilities and perhaps shape your true identity though them and the bonds you'll be able to form. You remind me a lot of my 9 friend as she often shapes herself through her friends and mafia games while not losing focus on who she is (like an image type would) and just gaining lots of new confusion.



> Considering humanity, I believe that each person is a receptacle of duality governed by the balance of light and darkness, and, what is truly beautiful to me in a very powerful way, is being able to *blur the line between good and evil, life in harmony with both*.
> 
> **else, I'm thinking I talk too much**


Definitely 9 but leaning on 9w1 rather than 9w8 due to your intense moral streak and need for order and spiritual harmony, it's less fun and lust and more of a soul searching journey to find that kind of balance. You seem a lot more serious and self-contained than most 9w8s, as well as extremely spiritual and I'm leaning on 4w5 rather than 2 for your heart type but I don't have too much to work with.


----------



## Despotic Nepotist

I've previously typed as a 5w6, but am now considering 8w9 with a strong line to 5. Either way, I know for a fact that I am either a core 5w6 or an 8w9, but both still play strong roles in my tritype.


----------



## GENIUSandVIOLENCE

I think I have mistyped myself. Confusion between 5 and 7. Posted a recent thread about my doubts and a few people said I was a 7. Open to moar interpretations!


----------



## Kisshoten

Karma said:


> 7w8 1w9 3w4 sp/sx or sx/sp, I bolded all of the parts that strike me as extremely 3-like.


Thanks... 

I don't really like 3... for no particular reason. having a 3 fix is gonna.. prove a challenge to both see and accept. 

MOAR opinions.! But whom can I summon? No one really knows me too well. Except.. prolly @Animal. Most others are not on PerC or are inactive.


----------



## Purrfessor

GENIUSandVIOLENCE said:


> I think I have mistyped myself. Confusion between 5 and 7. Posted a recent thread about my doubts and a few people said I was a 7. Open to moar interpretations!


I had troubles between those as well and ended up concluding that I had a 7 fix. Knew another person who also had a confusion between the two and ended up 7 also. So I'm guessing 7 is right for you purely based on those past experiences.


----------



## Animal

Karma said:


> @_Animal_
> I can answer you here or expand on that on Skype but I can definitely see 4w5 8w9 6w7 sx/sp working for you


Yes feel free to expand wherever - here, skype, or, I have a thread on the "Whats my enneagram type?" section for people who agree with my 4 typing but want to debate the tritype/stack/wings/jcf etc.

Any place/ any time is fine =)


----------



## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> According to this, I'd be 9 and not 1.


I don't find it to be particularly accurate either. I bolded the things I related to on my own thread, but I think a lot of the sentiments are wrongly attributed to types. The type 6 stuff on that list for example is mostly complete bullshit.


----------



## Purrfessor

Animal said:


> I don't find it to be particularly accurate either. I bolded the things I related to on my own thread, but I think a lot of the sentiments are wrongly attributed to types. The type 6 stuff on that list for example is mostly complete bullshit.


"Not ok to trust self" yeah I thought 6s were opposite of that.


----------



## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> "Not ok to trust self" yeah I thought 6s were opposite of that.


Some sixes don't trust themselves. Some will say they don't trust anything EXCEPT themselves. :/


----------



## Purrfessor

Animal said:


> Some sixes don't trust themselves. Some will say they don't trust anything EXCEPT themselves. :/


Hmm I guess a 6 will trust anything that is trustworthy and some find themselves to not be trustworthy.  and others find themselves to be most trustworthy.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Stelliferous said:


> Hmm I guess a 6 will trust anything that is trustworthy and some find themselves to not be trustworthy.  and others find themselves to be most trustworthy.


Well, personally I don't "trust" myself in the sense that I can't always trust my own judgement too easily. So even when I technically know something I'll second-guess myself and be like, "ah... I don't know." Meanwhile, I can be a bit impressionable too, rather than super-distrustful of others.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Animal said:


> Some will say they don't trust anything EXCEPT themselves. :/


I thought that was Fives, and Sixes inherently don't trust themselves, which is why they need something external to trust? Or at least that's what I kept reading.




Also, still waiting on how to find a head fix without doing a full questionnaire.


----------



## Purrfessor

I'm starting to think both 3 and 6 are as a 9 is and both outward and inward focused. So this actually makes it possible for me to form a shape... Alas that is the duty of the morrow. I'm too sleepy.


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I thought that was Fives, and Sixes inherently don't trust themselves, which is why they need something external to trust? Or at least that's what I kept reading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, still waiting on how to find a head fix without doing a full questionnaire.


Sixes will look for something to trust and then constantly test it to make sure its reliable. In the case of some 6's (specifically sp firsts) that thing is themselves. They will trust their own mind but constantly use parameters to assure themselves that their mind works as well as they think it does. They will test their ability to handle more dangerous situations. etc.


----------



## Arya

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I thought that was Fives, and Sixes inherently don't trust themselves, which is why they need something external to trust? Or at least that's what I kept reading.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, still waiting on how to find a head fix without doing a full questionnaire.



No not at all. Sixes don't really trust anything. They just trust certain things more than others, which could be themselves. Or it could be nothing at all.


----------



## Animal

Arya said:


> No not at all. Sixes don't really trust anything. They just trust certain things more than others, which could be themselves. Or it could be nothing at all.


Yeah. Do you agree with the post above this or was I off on that?


----------



## Animal

@xdollie.
I didn't forget about your post.. I just have to be in the right mindset.. I will still answer soon. I've been scattered today and pissy because of my own typing thread and issues that typing always brings up. So I want to be clear headed when discussing someone else's type.


----------



## Animal

@_Daleks_exterminate_ @_xdollie._

I want to share here a post that I wrote on another thread. It will help to show where I'm coming from when discussing fixes on a 7. I will mention that this post is very sx-centered. All of the singers I used are Sx first and I was comparing Sx4 to Sx7... although I was thinking about 7 and 4 in general.. in retrospect this is very Sx heavy (inadvertently). 

These are singers/songwriters who people often type at 4 (with the exception of Robert Plant) but who I feel are definitely 7s. I spent ample time with these singers, their interviews, videos, lyrics, writings, etc. None of these typings were quick judgement/superficial.
_____________


Some points about Type 7 that I feel most people miss, and why they are confused for 4s:


1. 7s are SELF-PUNISHING. Everyone knows they have a sense of entitlement about them. "I am amazing and the world is my oyster." They have the gluttony... "I have to take and take as much as I can before it's too late." But there is also a line to 1, which makes them self-punish for this. 7s, if they believe in an after-life, often fear they will go to hell. Note that they are _afraid of the consequence_, more than they are ashamed. They have guilt, but not shame. Guilt is being sorry about your actions, shame is being embarrassed about who you _are_.

Exhibit A. Fiona Apple "Criminal." 

_I've done wrong and I wanna suffer for my sin._

___
_Save me from these evil deeds before I get them done
I know tomorrow brings the consequence at hand
But *I keep living this day like the next will never come.*_







Exhibit B. Emilie Autumn "Willow"

_It's cruel I know, at least they tell me so
Well, *someone lock me up
And throw away the key*
Because I'm not ashamed, oh no , oh, willow

___
Slander and dissension, they're parlor games to me
Papers overrun with lies too mad to mention
You say they never hurt you, *no consequence, I'm happy
We're much too far above it all but oh no, that's not true

These wicked pastimes take their toll
These tyrant vices break your soul*
Deliver me from all I am
And all I never want to be


_





This can look like 4 masochism and self-loathing to an untrained eye. One way to tell the difference is, look to see if the 4 puts someone on a pedestal and places themselves under the pedestal. 7s will never do this. _Ever. _The 7 has "rose colored glasses" and might put their lover on a pedestal, but someone who is rejecting them will be diminished, because this is how rationalization works. The 7 must rationalize why she is okay and great. If the only way to do this is to diminish the other person, the 7 will do that. They will put lovers on a pedestal but never ever will they place themselves UNDER that pedestal. 4s do this naturally.. it's how envy and masochism works. The person rejecting them might even be exalted.

:::::::::::::::::::

2. 7s are GENEROUS. They feel they have been blessed with so many good things, they want to endow their loved ones with these things because then their loved ones will never be deprived. Yes, they are gluttons, but they do have the capacity to love, and so the one thing that would break their heart would be to see their loved ones being deprived, and they will do ANYTHING to avoid this. But sometimes, like 2s (who are their opposite but on the same spectrum, like 4/8, and 5/1), they can feel resentful that the other person took them for granted or slighted them. 

Exhibit A: Robert Plant 7w8 "Since I've been Loving You."






::::::::::::::::::

3. 7s are NOT NECESSARILY COMMITMENT PHOBIC. They are truly escapists, but that DOES NOT mean that they run away from relationships and shy away from commitments. Once a 7 has made a commitment, they will often OVERLOOK PROBLEMS because of their positivity, and rationalize why everything is Okay. They will continue trying as hard as they can to make things better and tell themselves that this relationship is JUST FINE, that their job situation is GOOD ENOUGH, etc. Their positivity, and the ego "I can handle any challenge life gives me!!" can actually lead them away from making decisions to better themselves, and can cause them to stay in situations, seeing only the good side, for way too long. They really, really don't like to admit that their important choices were wrong. 7's motto is "I'm okay!" - they don't want anyone to think they're not okay. They might tell their close friends that they're upset, but at the end, they will add on a bunch of good things. "Well, he's always drunk, and he fucked my best friend while I was at work, but he really loves me and he has tremendous potential. I think we'll be fine."

Exhibit A: The last song by Led Zeppelin has a line in it -

_*Everybody trying to tell me that you didn't mean me no good.
I've been trying, *Lord, let me tell you, Let me tell you I really did the best I could.

_Exhibit B: Northern Lad._

*Girls you've got to know
When it's time to turn the page*
When you're only wet
Because of the rain

_





This is a reason 7s might be confused for 4s. This can look a lot like a 4's line to 2 from the outside. The 7 is being generous and doing everything to make it work because that is part of their pride.. "I am okay, I can do this." To tell the difference between 4's line to 2 and 7's pride in being able to handle anything, look for whether it's coming from feeling genuinely unlovable and "less than," or is it coming from "I am so damn awesome and you don't even realize it." This line can be blurry, of course.

:::::::::::::::::::::

4. 7s DO NOT LIKE BEING CRITICIZED. They might have a monster ego, but they will take criticism to heart... it's a kind of "narcissistic entitlement" - they expect praise, and anything less will make them angry. They might even obsess over a person who rejected them because they have this need to be admired and loved, and when someone rejects them they feel like they want to turn it around. This is much less likely in a mature 7, who has 'no time for this bullshit because life is too short.' But look at how Tori Amos describes her childhood.


_*He said you're really an ugly girl
But I like the way you play*
And I died
But I thanked him
Can you believe that
Sick, sick, holding on to his picture
Dressing up every day
*I wanna smash the faces of those beautiful boys*
_







This is another reason they might be confused for 4s. Anger at criticism can look a lot like angry envy. 7s feel entitled to admiration, entitled to be the best, and can be spiteful toward someone else who is recognized as "better." But at the end of the day, 7s know they are awesome, and any clue that they are less than absolutely awesome will be rationalized away.

_So you can made me come
That doesn't make you Jesus

_A 4 might say... you ARE Jesus, and I am but a mere mortal. There is no rationalization. I just suck and you bless me with your presence. Yes, the 4 will be angry about this, perhaps vengeful. But it comes from _envy_ and longing to be enough, feeling inherently_ less than_, not from writing the other person off as "less than me" in the end. This line can also be blurry, and both types can have opposite instances of each mindset, but it's something you can find overall in 4 albums vs. 7 albums over time.


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> @_Daleks_exterminate_ @_xdollie._
> 
> I want to share here a post that I wrote on another thread. It will help to show where I'm coming from when discussing fixes on a 7. I will mention that this post is very sx-centered. All of the singers I used are Sx first and I was comparing Sx4 to Sx7... although I was thinking about 7 and 4 in general.. in retrospect this is very Sx heavy (inadvertently).
> 
> These are singers/songwriters who people often type at 4 (with the exception of Robert Plant) but who I feel are definitely 7s. I spent ample time with these singers, their interviews, videos, lyrics, writings, etc. None of these typings were quick judgement/superficial.
> _____________


In light of this, I guess I'm better described as "commitment avoidant" than "commitment phobic," necessarily 
Commitment => no escape; which is where I have a problem.


----------



## Golden Rose

@Animal 
That was a gorgeous post and I loved it, helped me understand my 7 fixes better, their conflict with my own core (and the one I often have with 7s) and it was pretty damn great in general, I feel like expanding on your type despite being in an extremely odd mind frame but I don't think I'll wing this one.

Your 4w5 core is obvious, everything about you and your life just bleeds sexual 4 and not even in the stereotypical and mistyped "I want to be a snowflake" way but in a rawer, more intense and human "I've never felt good enough, I've never fit into anything but I couldn't see myself any other way". There's envy often dripping off your words, mostly to 2s and 8s which ironically I share while taking pride in what I have (bless the 2-4 connection), true genuine envy which is wrapped up with sadness, you sometimes hate what other people have or it frightens you yet you want it, although you can't understand what it feels like. You're naturally unique and expressive, perhaps awkward and inexplicable, yet there's this strong magnetism, this fiery soul in you... I'd say that 4s burn with a cold flame, a blue one. There's sadness and self contempt and fear but there's also passion, intensity, longing for the kind of bond they feel like they never deserve, they'll never be ready to deal with or comfortable to settle into. There's a darker and more velvet-like element to them, compared to the fairy escapism of 9s or the warm and bright self-punishing escapism of 7s, fours are often a pessimistic lot, although devoid of the constant cynicism of a 5. Your descriptions of your feelings as being trapped, wanting to curl up and dissolve into nothing is how I see a 4w5 overflown with emotion and for some odd reason, I'm feeling it too right now, can I just say how wonderfully genuine and rich with depth you are? To hell with asslicking, you're truly a gem. Your 8 fix is obvious to me, perhaps because I struggle with my own too and being an image type only helps making it even worse, in more than a way, but I agree with you that image types attempt to be what they actually want to be and are, but only partially so... there was my 7 and 8. There's yours, although I'd say 8w9 because it's a softer kind of a need to be seen as strong, often tinted with soft doubt and confusion, avoiding it when unnecessarily so. The 6 only complements this entire picture, so much doubt yet so much strength, so much anxiety yet not completely irrational and often tamed, as if you were longing to be part of something that doesn't exist, to live a life that you've only created in your head yet don't feel entitled to. Many of them actually, all living through your art. I can't really put my readings and hunches into words but I can see you fitting all of these three types perfectly, you don't have an optimistic fix, you're darker than that but in strong and poetic way. You're lovely and calm yet there's this triple reactivity in you, this need to carry on and be strong and punch life in the face, no matter how much you want to drown in your sorrows... like I told you on Skype, you're amazingly complex and this mix of contradictions only make you more human and incredibly easy to be fond of, although sometimes you can't see it.

<3


----------



## cinnabun

Snow leopard, this was amazing. Thank you for taking the time to write this ^^.



Animal said:


> 1. 7s are SELF-PUNISHING. Everyone knows they have a sense of entitlement about them. "I am amazing and the world is my oyster." They have the gluttony... "I have to take and take as much as I can before it's too late." But there is also a line to 1, which makes them self-punish for this. 7s, if they believe in an after-life, often fear they will go to hell. Note that they are _afraid of the consequence_, more than they are ashamed. They have guilt, but not shame. Guilt is being sorry about your actions, shame is being embarrassed about who you _are_.


I can relate to this. Out of the seven deadly sins, gluttony and envy is the ones that affect me the most. I can be quite selfish in the way I just do what is best for me, and I don't really think how it will affect others. Then when/if people comment on what I've done and point out why it's wrong, I feel guilt for not thinking it through, even though I thought I did. I can sometimes feel embarrassed about who I am though, but I guess that's (maybe) my 8 in my tri-type, not wanting my soft-side to emerge and cringing when it does. But yes, so far I can agree with this analysis.



Animal said:


> This can look like 4 masochism and self-loathing to an untrained eye. One way to tell the difference is, look to see if the 4 puts someone on a pedestal and places themselves under the pedestal. 7s will never do this. _Ever. _The 7 has "rose colored glasses" and might put their lover on a pedestal, but someone who is rejecting them will be diminished, because this is how rationalization works. The 7 must rationalize why she is okay and great. If the only way to do this is to diminish the other person, the 7 will do that. They will put lovers on a pedestal but never ever will they place themselves UNDER that pedestal. 4s do this naturally.. it's how envy and masochism works. The person rejecting them might even be exalted.
> 
> --
> 
> A 4 might say... you ARE Jesus, and I am but a mere mortal. There is no rationalization. I just suck and you bless me with your presence. Yes, the 4 will be angry about this, perhaps vengeful. But it comes from _envy_ and longing to be enough, feeling inherently_ less than_, not from writing the other person off as "less than me" in the end. This line can also be blurry, and both types can have opposite instances of each mindset, but it's something you can find overall in 4 albums vs. 7 albums over time.


I can relate to both, actually. I can sometimes put myself under the pedestal, and sometimes I don't. It just depends. I do have anxiety and depression and self-esteem issues, so maybe it's that instead of being a type 4 (overly complicating this, sorry XD). If people reject me, like if people don't take the time to get to know me, or they just take a dislike to me for no reason, then that's their loss. Whatever bitch, you lost out on a great person. I'm not going to try and please you. However, I _can_ be overly critical of myself and put myself down. I am a jealous person (ugh) and constantly compare myself to others, whether it be with looks or skills. I'll often feel like I'm not good enough. In my relationships, I often worry I'm not good enough for them. I'm not exciting enough, not smart enough, not fun enough. I mostly worry that I'm boring and try and not be. The envy that I feel is explained further below. I don't ever feel like the person I'm jealous of is high and mighty and better than me, it's more so of a "_Why_ is this person being recognised while I'm not? I'm just as good. In fact, I'm better. Praise me! Why aren't you paying attention to me? I'm fun, look *tries to be entertaining* see?" And what I've noticed myself doing, is whenever someone else is being praised, I'll quickly say or do something to try and give me back the spotlight. So that I'll be the one being noticed. I want the person who's being praised to be forgotten about. Even though I feel entitled to praise, because I know I'm a good person, I'll still be criticising myself at the same time. "I'm not good enough. Someone else is being noticed, it's because I'm not fun enough. I need to do more crazy shit. I'm so boring." (with me, I mostly worry about being boring).



Animal said:


> 2. 7s are GENEROUS. They feel they have been blessed with so many good things, they want to endow their loved ones with these things because then their loved ones will never be deprived. Yes, they are gluttons, but they do have the capacity to love, and so the one thing that would break their heart would be to see their loved ones being deprived, and they will do ANYTHING to avoid this. But sometimes, like 2s (who are their opposite but on the same spectrum, like 4/8, and 5/1), they can feel resentful that the other person took them for granted or slighted them.
> 
> --
> 
> This is a reason 7s might be confused for 4s. This can look a lot like a 4's line to 2 from the outside. The 7 is being generous and doing everything to make it work because that is part of their pride.. "I am okay, I can do this." To tell the difference between 4's line to 2 and 7's pride in being able to handle anything, look for whether it's coming from feeling genuinely unlovable and "less than," or is it coming from "I am so damn awesome and you don't even realize it." This line can be blurry, of course.


Yep! I get this. I guess that's why I thought I was a 2, because even though I can be selfish (maybe thoughtless is the better word) I can be generous too. I'm very loving, and for the people I really care about, I have all these intense, gigantic loving emotions and I just want to spread it around and wrap them in my blanket of affection. I want them to know how I feel, so I often proclaim my love for people. I do like to do things for people too, but I'm mostly generous in an emotional sort of way (if that even makes any sense). I like to do things for people (but at the same time, I'm kinda doing it for myself too). I do relate to the "feeling taking for granted" thing as well.



Animal said:


> 3. 7s are NOT NECESSARILY COMMITMENT PHOBIC. They are truly escapists, but that DOES NOT mean that they run away from relationships and shy away from commitments. Once a 7 has made a commitment, they will often OVERLOOK PROBLEMS because of their positivity, and rationalize why everything is Okay. They will continue trying as hard as they can to make things better and tell themselves that this relationship is JUST FINE, that their job situation is GOOD ENOUGH, etc. Their positivity, and the ego "I can handle any challenge life gives me!!" can actually lead them away from making decisions to better themselves, and can cause them to stay in situations, seeing only the good side, for way too long. They really, really don't like to admit that their important choices were wrong. 7's motto is "I'm okay!" - they don't want anyone to think they're not okay. They might tell their close friends that they're upset, but at the end, they will add on a bunch of good things. "Well, he's always drunk, and he fucked my best friend while I was at work, but he really loves me and he has tremendous potential. I think we'll be fine."


Yes, so true. I do have a problem with commitment, but I wouldn't say I run away from it whenever it presents itself. I'm in a relationship just now, and while I sometimes have my own struggles which makes me doubt myself (if I'm good enough and such) I've never once thought "Omg this is too much, run away!" I'm _very _happy with my partner, so this whole 'fear of commitment in a relationship' thing bothered me. I did have problems entering relationships before because it was all on_ me_. I couldn't allow myself to be vulnerable, I just couldn't let them tear down these walls created by anxiety and fear. I didn't want to be in a position where I thought I'd be hurt, and felt stronger and safer on my own. Also, I'd never feel good enough, so I would run away from it. It was never about having issues with actually committing to someone, because I'm very loyal, and if I come to cherish you, I'll stay true to you. I'm very much an escapist though, I overlook any issues I'm having because I don't want to admit them. Admitting them would make it real, and when something is real that means you need to deal with it. I tend to burrow myself down in the depths of my own imagination to avoid problems I face in every day life, and yes, I do kind of "accept" things because of my positivity, I'd say.



Animal said:


> 4. 7s DO NOT LIKE BEING CRITICIZED. They might have a monster ego, but they will take criticism to heart... it's a kind of "narcissistic entitlement" - *they expect praise*, and anything less will make them angry. They might even obsess over a person who rejected them because they have this need to be admired and loved, and when someone rejects them they feel like they want to turn it around. This is much less likely in a mature 7, who has 'no time for this bullshit because life is too short.' But look at how Tori Amos describes her childhood.


Omg, yes! I do, and I feel so petty for admitting that. Although I have confidence issues (which, btw, is down to my relationship with my ISTJ mother, but it's also down to me being overly critical of myself and wanting to be the best) I'd never expect anyone to tell me I suck or that I'm ugly or some shit like that. If I ever feel like I suck, it's because I'm comparing myself to other people, and wanting to be better than them. Wanting to over-throw them, because I feel like I should. If someone else is being recognised, or if someone else is being praised by someone I love, I feel really jealous. "Why are they being recognised? What's so great about them? Why aren't you noticing me? I'm awesome. Praise me, wtf. Tell me how fabulous I am." I'm kinda petty like that, I guess. I don't like it. I like to be the one being noticed, I like to be the one shining. I expect it, and if I'm not, I get annoyed. This only applies to people I like, though. I mean, if someone I like is praising someone else, that's when I get irritated. If it was someone I didn't give a shit about praising someone else, I wouldn't care. I just want to be recognised by those I like.

However, like I said above, if I'm being rejected by someone, 99% of the time I don't give a fuck. I don't really experience this if I'm honest, but sometimes I'll come across assholes (we all do XD) who just dislike me for whatever reason. I shrug it off, because I know I'm a great person with a lot to offer, and if they're stupid enough to now get to know me, then lol at them. When I was younger though, this was different. I had to be liked by everyone, I wanted to be popular with everybody. If someone didn't want to be my friend, I couldn't accept it and tried to change their mind. I tried to show off how amazing I was. I hadn't developed that maturity like I have now.

However, if someone I did like rejected me, that would be a different story. That's never happened to me, because whenever I like someone, I seek them out and take the time to get to know them, and dazzle them with my fierce personality. Is it arrogant to say that I'm not disliked that much? That I don't have trouble with making friends? Idk. I don't know what I'd do if I liked someone and they were like "nah, don't want to know you." I'd probably be like "UM WTF?" and be annoyed, but then I'd get over it and remember that I'm fabulous.



Animal said:


> This is another reason they might be confused for 4s. Anger at criticism can look a lot like angry envy. 7s feel entitled to admiration, entitled to be the best, and can be spiteful toward someone else who is recognized as "better." But at the end of the day, 7s know they are awesome, and any clue that they are less than absolutely awesome will be rationalized away.




This.

--
I've made this pretty long, again. I feel like I'm...being self-absorbed with all this lmao. But whatever, I'm very curious about my tri-type, so any insight from anyone would be greatly appreciated ^^. Anyway this was hard typing out on a public thread for everyone to see (I feel so dirty, revealing these vulnerabilities I have XD) but hopefully this will give you more to work with .


----------



## Purrfessor

xdollie. said:


> Snow leopard, this was amazing. Thank you for taking the time to write this ^^.
> 
> 
> 
> I can relate to this. Out of the seven deadly sins, gluttony and envy is the ones that affect me the most. I can be quite selfish in the way I just do what is best for me, and I don't really think how it will affect others. Then when/if people comment on what I've done and point out why it's wrong, I feel guilt for not thinking it through, even though I thought I did. I can sometimes feel embarrassed about who I am though, but I guess that's (maybe) my 8 in my tri-type, not wanting my soft-side to emerge and cringing when it does. But yes, so far I can agree with this analysis.
> 
> 
> 
> I can relate to both, actually. I can sometimes put myself under the pedestal, and sometimes I don't. It just depends. I do have anxiety and depression and self-esteem issues, so maybe it's that instead of being a type 4 (overly complicating this, sorry XD). If people reject me, like if people don't take the time to get to know me, or they just take a dislike to me for no reason, then that's their loss. Whatever bitch, you lost out on a great person. I'm not going to try and please you. However, I _can_ be overly critical of myself and put myself down. I am a jealous person (ugh) and constantly compare myself to others, whether it be with looks or skills. I'll often feel like I'm not good enough. In my relationships, I often worry I'm not good enough for them. I'm not exciting enough, not smart enough, not fun enough. I mostly worry that I'm boring and try and not be. The envy that I feel is explained further below. I don't ever feel like the person I'm jealous of is high and mighty and better than me, it's more so of a "_Why_ is this person being recognised while I'm not? I'm just as good. In fact, I'm better. Praise me! Why aren't you paying attention to me? I'm fun, look *tries to be entertaining* see?" And what I've noticed myself doing, is whenever someone else is being praised, I'll quickly say or do something to try and give me back the spotlight. So that I'll be the one being noticed. I want the person who's being praised to be forgotten about. Even though I feel entitled to praise, because I know I'm a good person, I'll still be criticising myself at the same time. "I'm not good enough. Someone else is being noticed, it's because I'm not fun enough. I need to do more crazy shit. I'm so boring." (with me, I mostly worry about being boring).
> 
> 
> 
> Yep! I get this. I guess that's why I thought I was a 2, because even though I can be selfish (maybe thoughtless is the better word) I can be generous too. I'm very loving, and for the people I really care about, I have all these intense, gigantic loving emotions and I just want to spread it around and wrap them in my blanket of affection. I want them to know how I feel, so I often proclaim my love for people. I do like to do things for people too, but I'm mostly generous in an emotional sort of way (if that even makes any sense). I like to do things for people (but at the same time, I'm kinda doing it for myself too). I do relate to the "feeling taking for granted" thing as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, so true. I do have a problem with commitment, but I wouldn't say I run away from it whenever it presents itself. I'm in a relationship just now, and while I sometimes have my own struggles which makes me doubt myself (if I'm good enough and such) I've never once thought "Omg this is too much, run away!" I'm _very _happy with my partner, so this whole 'fear of commitment in a relationship' thing bothered me. I did have problems entering relationships before because it was all on_ me_. I couldn't allow myself to be vulnerable, I just couldn't let them tear down these walls created by anxiety and fear. I didn't want to be in a position where I thought I'd be hurt, and felt stronger and safer on my own. Also, I'd never feel good enough, so I would run away from it. It was never about having issues with actually committing to someone, because I'm very loyal, and if I come to cherish you, I'll stay true to you. I'm very much an escapist though, I overlook any issues I'm having because I don't want to admit them. Admitting them would make it real, and when something is real that means you need to deal with it. I tend to burrow myself down in the depths of my own imagination to avoid problems I face in every day life, and yes, I do kind of "accept" things because of my positivity, I'd say.
> 
> 
> 
> Omg, yes! I do, and I feel so petty for admitting that. Although I have confidence issues (which, btw, is down to my relationship with my ISTJ mother, but it's also down to me being overly critical of myself and wanting to be the best) I'd never expect anyone to tell me I suck or that I'm ugly or some shit like that. If I ever feel like I suck, it's because I'm comparing myself to other people, and wanting to be better than them. Wanting to over-throw them, because I feel like I should. If someone else is being recognised, or if someone else is being praised by someone I love, I feel really jealous. "Why are they being recognised? What's so great about them? Why aren't you noticing me? I'm awesome. Praise me, wtf. Tell me how fabulous I am." I'm kinda petty like that, I guess. I don't like it. I like to be the one being noticed, I like to be the one shining. I expect it, and if I'm not, I get annoyed. This only applies to people I like, though. I mean, if someone I like is praising someone else, that's when I get irritated. If it was someone I didn't give a shit about praising someone else, I wouldn't care. I just want to be recognised by those I like.
> 
> However, like I said above, if I'm being rejected by someone, 99% of the time I don't give a fuck. I don't really experience this if I'm honest, but sometimes I'll come across assholes (we all do XD) who just dislike me for whatever reason. I shrug it off, because I know I'm a great person with a lot to offer, and if they're stupid enough to now get to know me, then lol at them. When I was younger though, this was different. I had to be liked by everyone, I wanted to be popular with everybody. If someone didn't want to be my friend, I couldn't accept it and tried to change their mind. I tried to show off how amazing I was. I hadn't developed that maturity like I have now.
> 
> However, if someone I did like rejected me, that would be a different story. That's never happened to me, because whenever I like someone, I seek them out and take the time to get to know them, and dazzle them with my fierce personality. Is it arrogant to say that I'm not disliked that much? That I don't have trouble with making friends? Idk. I don't know what I'd do if I liked someone and they were like "nah, don't want to know you." I'd probably be like "UM WTF?" and be annoyed, but then I'd get over it and remember that I'm fabulous.
> 
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> --
> I've made this pretty long, again. I feel like I'm...being self-absorbed with all this lmao. But whatever, I'm very curious about my tri-type, so any insight from anyone would be greatly appreciated ^^. Anyway this was hard typing out on a public thread for everyone to see (I feel so dirty, revealing these vulnerabilities I have XD) but hopefully this will give you more to work with .


Don't feel dirty.  imagine the revealing to be like jumping in a pool of love instead of jumping in a pool of mud.


----------



## Kisshoten

Stelliferous said:


> Don't feel dirty.  imagine the revealing to be like jumping in a pool of love instead of jumping in a pool of mud.


As a fellow 7, I can vouch for the 'dirty' feel (not in the kinky kinda way, i assure you). Stuff like this is hard as hell to do and I still don't, or, I haven't so far. I hope that doesn't change any time soon. I'm not sure I'd handle that too well.


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## Purrfessor

Vergil said:


> As a fellow 7, I can vouch for the 'dirty' feel (not in the kinky kinda way, i assure you). Stuff like this is hard as hell to do and I still don't, or, I haven't so far. I hope that doesn't change any time soon. I'm not sure I'd handle that too well.


Believe me, I know the feeling. I'm just trying to alleviate a small amount of it. :3


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## Kisshoten

Stelliferous said:


> Believe me, I know the feeling. I'm just trying to alleviate a small amount of it. :3


Umm.. what I am about to say next may not apply to other 7s, but.. reassurance.. doesn't normally work for me. 

As in, if I ever open up and even if it is well received by the other party, I am likely to lock down on feeling and emotion really tight for at least the next few weeks.. and I also avoid the person with whom I've been open. What also happens is that I harden some more. It's almost as if whatever softness I had escaped with the words I uttered. The intensity of feeling dies down and ultimately I become apathetic. 

=/

I don't know what to do about it, but it's true. It is also one of the reasons I don't let people very close to me. They won't be able to understand this aspect of me and they'd get hurt and blame me for hurting them and shit. It's probably not uncommon, I don't know for sure, but yeah, a lot of people find themselves getting disappointed by this side of me.

EDIT: I want to be able to not become cold after getting so close... but.. I don't think that's a realistic expectation to have from myself. On the other hand, closeness is what I'd like to have with a significant other. So, in effect, these two opposing aspects of me have left me lonely as fuck, but still not desperate enough to reach out or go insane. 

complicated life is complicated


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## Purrfessor

Vergil said:


> Umm.. what I am about to say next may not apply to other 7s, but.. reassurance.. doesn't normally work for me.
> 
> As in, if I ever open up and even if it is well received by the other party, I am likely to lock down on feeling and emotion really tight for at least the next few weeks.. and I also avoid the person with whom I've been open. What also happens is that I harden some more. It's almost as if whatever softness I had escaped with the words I uttered. The intensity of feeling dies down and ultimately I become apathetic.
> 
> =/
> 
> I don't know what to do about it, but it's true. It is also one of the reasons I don't let people very close to me. They won't be able to understand this aspect of me and they'd get hurt and blame me for hurting them and shit. It's probably not uncommon, I don't know for sure, but yeah, a lot of people find themselves getting disappointed by this side of me.
> 
> EDIT: I want to be able to not become cold after getting so close... but.. I don't think that's a realistic expectation to have from myself. On the other hand, closeness is what I'd like to have with a significant other. So, in effect, these two opposing aspects of me have left me lonely as fuck, but still not desperate enough to reach out or go insane.
> 
> complicated life is complicated


It takes a lot to destroy apathy. I know better than most. But it is possible, I'm proof. I'm actually writing a book with this very message. It's a beautiful reincarnation. I think all 7s will benefit from reading it. @Arya thinks I'm 7 dom. And if I am not a 1 and indeed a 9, I may have to agree with that assessment. 

Its just painful for me to see others suffering in any way so I reach out with my heart because that's all I can do. And it doesn't work all the time either... *thinks back to father* I wish love was the strongest force. Free will is though.


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## cinnabun

Animal said:


> Not all 8s will do drugs. I actually experimented a lot more than one of the core 8s I know well. He just wasn't into it. But the thrills he does seek, he takes major risks.


I wasn't so much getting at drug-taking per say, it was more of "I don't take risks. I'm not a risk taker or a thrill seeker (in that way). If something is potentially dangerous, or could hurt me, I'll avoid it." 



Animal said:


> 8 , and gut fixes in general, are more about how people deal with boundaries, anger, and confrontation.
> 
> All that being said I probably wouldn't guess 8 fix for you based on your posts and demeanor. Count yourself lucky for that?  hehe.


I see! Okay, this helps me understand gut fixes a little better ^^. 

Haha no! I don't think so either. I was confusing my 8 for my 6wing, you pointed that out with your earlier post . 8's seem to have a lot of anger/resentment stored inside them for shit that happened to them, like trauma, you know? At least that's how I'm interpreting it. I've not really had that. Nothing that terrible has happened to me, and if anything did, I get over it. I don't hold grudges (starting to look into 9 for my gut fix now). For instance, my mum is emotionally abusive. That's why my relationship with her is well, strange. I also think this is where my anxiety stems from, because growing up with her was stressful. She has a lot of expectations, and nothing is ever good enough for her. I would always berate myself for not living up to her standards. Feeling stupid and incompetent, feeling disappointed and upset with myself for causing her anger (there's a lot more to this, but I'll stop for now). My point with this, is that even though she (I believe) is the main cause for my lack of self-esteem, my anxiety, and possibly my depression, I still love her. I don't hate her. I never have. I mean, anytime we had an argument I did in that moment. I felt so explosive and angry and upset whenever we had a confrontation, I hated it. I wasn't really able to stand up to myself with her. I got so flustered and upset, that I eventually learned it does no good fighting back with her, so I would just let her get on with it and ignore her. But afterwards, I would cry and feel angry with myself that I let myself become so weak. There was a lot of intense emotional shit going on XD, but, even so, I still want her to be happy. When I moved out, I felt guilty, because I felt like I was hurting her, and the thought of that made me really upset. I just want her to be okay and hope she can work through her problems (I think she might be an 8 actually) and be happy and healthy.

Even so, although I do have issues that have been caused by this, I'll still keep my happy, positive demeanour. I mean, it's been hard lately with my depression, but I'll look for reasons to laugh and try and find comfort and happiness in everyday life, you know? It's hard to explain. 

I'm not really sure, with all of this, what gut fix I could be, but I'm starting to think it's not 8. 

And, sorry for the personal details, I'm just posting it so others can have a better understanding of things ^^.


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## cinnabun

Stelliferous said:


> Ok so an 8 disintegrated to 5 is basically in a searching state of mind from loss of someone close. An integrated 8 has no hole to fill by searching because the 8 has focus on others. The 8 is in opposition to 4 so when an 8 is disintegrating, he or she will be concerned with self desire, just as that of a 4. You were staying strong for self because you were feeling the force of 4 that happens when 8 disintegrates. That mantra you repeat "stay strong for self" is only a temporary shield against disintegration. The real battle was won from 2-like focus. Without anybody to stay strong for, the 8 mantra "stay strong for self" will eventually fall and turn into lust/disintegration. Integration and disintegration is about controlling your focus, not your behavior. The 4 mantra is unstable and will break. The 2 mantra is everlasting.


This is so fucking amazing and interesting. It's so confusing though! Like, I don't get how people can be like "ennegaram is so easy lol!" DAYUM, JUST...DAYUM. I'll need to do more research on this, but thank you .


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## Animal

@xdollie.
So much to say but so little time heheheee. I am seriously going to write you a very long post quoting all your recent post soon. But please don't apologize for the personal details. That is how enneagram core is hunted  it's that kind of depth that one needs to find out what's underneath. You are DEFINITELY a 7 wow wow. And it's beautiful that you have such forgiveness in your heart.


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## cinnabun

Animal said:


> @_xdollie._
> So much to say but so little time heheheee. I am seriously going to write you a very long post quoting all your recent post soon. But please don't apologize for the personal details. That is how enneagram core is hunted  it's that kind of depth that one needs to find out what's underneath. You are DEFINITELY a 7 wow wow. And it's beautiful that you have such forgiveness in your heart.


Argh, for some reason I'm crying, I feel touched! (Bipolar much? XD) Thank you, I feel unsure writing those kind of posts, because I don't want to come across as "OMG LOOK AT ME!" but I have so much emotion that I just desperately want it get it all out! I feel more accepted now and very happy. Thank you .


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## Purrfessor

xdollie. said:


> This is so fucking amazing and interesting. It's so confusing though! Like, I don't get how people can be like "ennegaram is so easy lol!" DAYUM, JUST...DAYUM. I'll need to do more research on this, but thank you .


But I'm not sure of 8 fix for you like Animal says. Pill popping wasn't seen as a challenge against the sayings of others for you it seems and it was more of a gluttonous desire that you fought in a 4 fix way. I think your heart just took over because it sensed your brain was being wacky.


----------



## Animal

xdollie. said:


> Argh, for some reason I'm crying, I feel touched! (Bipolar much? XD) Thank you, I feel nervous writing those kind of posts on here, because I don't want to come across as "OMG LOOK AT ME!" but I have so much emotion that I just desperately want it get it all out! I feel more accepted now and very happy. Thank you .


I also didn't speak the rest of my inner reaction aloud, which went something like : ugh, I wish I could kill that fucking bitch (your mother)... *red ball of rage in pit of stomach*


And aww that is so sweet <3 hehe


----------



## cinnabun

Stelliferous said:


> But I'm not sure of 8 fix for you like Animal says. Pill popping wasn't seen as a challenge against the sayings of others for you it seems and it was more of a gluttonous desire that you fought in a 4 fix way. I think your heart just took over because it sensed your brain was being wacky.


I don't think 8 either, my idea of an 8 was greatly misunderstood. I didn't realise they harbour so much anger in a "fuck you world!" way and acted out as a way to challenge life. I just thought they wanted to appear strong, but were quite vulnerable deep down XD. I would say for my heart type I'm a 4, yes .


----------



## Animal

xdollie. said:


> I don't think 8 either, my idea of an 8 was greatly misunderstood. I didn't realise they harbour so much anger in a "fuck you world!" way and acted out as a way to challenge life. I just thought they wanted to appear strong, but were quite vulnerable deep down XD. I would say for my heart type I'm a 4, yes .


With 8s its not about appearances. It's about needing to be strong in order to survive in a harsh world, and to protect innocent people who are surviving in that world. Survivors as such, don't usually talk about the things they had to do to survive. It's not pretty when you have to do those things. But you have to. So you just suck it up and do it. It's kind of like "The first rule of fight club is don't talk about fight club." Sure 8s (or any person who has engaged in such dangerous things) can brag about their silly adventures. But there's a point at which you had to do some fucked up shit to get by and it's not something you readily share. So it's not about appearances. There can be a lot of guilt about things you had to do in the moment. Or sometimes you have no remorse, but it's just not on your mind because it's part of life. And why corrupt innocent ears with those stories?

As for being vulnerable underneath.. sort of. The 8s I know are fluffballs underneath. When they make themselves vulnerable to someone and that person takes any kind of advantage, they will cut that person off, or in some scenarios, make them pay, depending on the level of violation. Most 8s or survivors in general can't be bothered with idiotic jerks, so a lot of offenses will just lead to cutting that person off. Who has time for those idiots? But there is a level of anger from which 8s won't turn back and it can even energize them until they get theirs.


P.S. not all 'survivors' are 8 fixers. That would be like saying all artists are 4s/ 4 fixers. Just.. not true. There's something of "the spirit of the 8" in a warrior archetype or survivalism, like there is "the spirit of 4" in creative arts or an artist archetype. But anyone can have tough skin and survive harsh circumstances if they are so inclined. And some 8s are lazy as fuck.


----------



## Purrfessor

xdollie. said:


> I don't think 8 either, my idea of an 8 was greatly misunderstood. I didn't realise they harbour so much anger in a "fuck you world!" way and acted out as a way to challenge life. I just thought they wanted to appear strong, but were quite vulnerable deep down XD. I would say for my heart type I'm a 4, yes .


I see 9 gut because of all your laughter and funniness. Comedy brings everybody together just like a 9 does.


----------



## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> I see 9 gut because of all your laughter and funniness. Comedy brings everybody together just like a 9 does.


I agree @xdollie. - not getting 1 vibes or 8 vibes. 9 yes.

I will go into specifics in long post if anything stands out.


----------



## cinnabun

@Animal @Stelliferous Thank you, you're both so knowledgeable and fantastic. I want to eat your souls and jump into your brains and explore because wow:blushed:<33333.

9 is interesting. I think I totally underestimated them when I was reading about them a while back. My impression of a 9 was: overly fluffy, hates conflict, sensitive, too soft. 

I wouldn't say that was me...well maybe. I don't go out of my way to fight with bitches like some sort of crazy asshole. If someone tried to starrt shit with me, I'd be like lol, fuck you. I'd only get into it if they crossed a serious line with me.

However, if someone even looks as someone I love in the wrong way, I'm very confrontational and want to fight. I want to protect them, even if they can handle themselves. I think this here is why I also thought I was a clear 8.


----------



## Animal

xdollie. said:


> @_Animal_ @_Stelliferous_ Thank you, you're both so knowledgeable and fantastic. I want to eat your souls and jump into your brains and explore because wow:blushed:<33333.
> 
> 9 is interesting. I think I totally underestimated them when I was reading about them a while back. My impression of a 9 was: overly fluffy, hates conflict, sensitive, too soft.
> 
> I wouldn't say that was me...well maybe. I don't go out of my way to fight with bitches like some sort of crazy asshole. If someone tried to starrt shit with me, I'd be like lol, fuck you. I'd only get into it if they crossed a serious line with me.
> 
> However, if someone even looks as someone I love in the wrong way, I'm very confrontational and want to fight. I want to protect them, even if they can handle themselves. I think this here is why I also thought I was a clear 8.


Bjork is a 9w1.







9 issue - playing dead!











holy love/ mergence


----------



## Purrfessor

xdollie. said:


> @_Animal_ @_Stelliferous_ Thank you, you're both so knowledgeable and fantastic. I want to eat your souls and jump into your brains and explore because wow:blushed:<33333.
> 
> 9 is interesting. I think I totally underestimated them when I was reading about them a while back. My impression of a 9 was: overly fluffy, hates conflict, sensitive, too soft.
> 
> I wouldn't say that was me...well maybe. I don't go out of my way to fight with bitches like some sort of crazy asshole. If someone tried to starrt shit with me, I'd be like lol, fuck you. I'd only get into it if they crossed a serious line with me.
> 
> However, if someone even looks as someone I love in the wrong way, I'm very confrontational and want to fight. I want to protect them, even if they can handle themselves. I think this here is why I also thought I was a clear 8.


My brain is like a trampoline. The more you jump in it, the higher and higher you fly.


----------



## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> My brain is like a trampoline. The more you jump in it, the higher and higher you fly.


Hahahahahaa. Good one.


----------



## Paradigm

@Animal, @Stelliferous

How would you two describe the 1w9 method of dealing with conflict? I have my own ideas but I'd rather hear your version before biasing yours with mine xD

EDIT: Interpersonal conflict.


----------



## Purrfessor

Paradigm said:


> @_Animal_, @_Stelliferous_
> 
> How would you two describe the 1w9 method of dealing with conflict? I have my own ideas but I'd rather hear your version before biasing yours with mine xD


I have to go help my sister paint. What what you describe the conflict as? That's a pretty broad idea of a problem. I'll reply later. *hugs*


----------



## Golden Rose

@Animal

Out of curiosity, what do you think Regina Spektor's type is?


----------



## Dalton

Stelliferous said:


> I have to go help my sister paint. What what you describe the conflict as? That's a pretty broad idea of a problem. I'll reply later. *hugs*


Type 1w9 isn't THAT conflict-avoidant!!! ;P


----------



## heavydirtysoul

@Karma I might not be a 2 at all. In common sense terms, I am a shitty person. None of the people I care about actually need me in their lives. I am quick-tempered, I go to extremes; I either get destructively angry, either pitifully sad, but invariably forget about the consequences, which is my greatest weakness. I feel negative emotions so deeply and so intensely that, in the heat of a moment, I want the other person to feel as terrible as it feeds me in a forceful way. In spite of this, what I want more than anything is to be completely cool, crystal clear, yet it has been said that "without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace". Is it so? And what I think is noteworthy, often I am quick to say or to do something, because I strongly feel that, eventually, everything loses its significance, we lose our significance.


----------



## Animal

Karma said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> Out of curiosity, what do you think Regina Spektor's type is?


I will look into it. I actually know nothing about her.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> @_Animal_, @_Stelliferous_
> 
> How would you two describe the 1w9 method of dealing with conflict? I have my own ideas but I'd rather hear your version before biasing yours with mine xD
> 
> EDIT: Interpersonal conflict.


Oooh. Great question - this is the kind of thing I need to percolate on. I will do that and write when I have something substantial that I can put in words without just picturing a vibe in my mind and stumbling 


If you want to write yours, feel free, because these kind of deeper questions can take me a few days. I won't look until I'm done ;D

(And even if I did it probably won't bias me because I tend to go off musicians and family members and irl people and issues rather than text and ideas at this juncture. I needed to read the books to develop a foundational understanding, and of course insightful posts and exchanges can contribute to that foundation, but at this point my personal answer to this question will be mostly reliant on my actual personal experience. My mother is a 1w9 , I dated a 1w2 briefly, my close friend's boyfriend is a 1w2, and my lifelong friend is a 1w9.. so I have something real to go on and synthesize..  )


----------



## Golden Rose

sweet disaster said:


> @Karma I might not be a 2 at all. In common sense terms, I am a shitty person. None of the people I care about actually need me in their lives. I am quick-tempered, I go to extremes; *I either get destructively angry, either pitifully sad, but invariably forget about the consequences, which is my greatest weakness. I feel negative emotions so deeply and so intensely that, in the heat of a moment, I want the other person to feel as terrible as it feeds me in a forceful way. In spite of this, what I want more than anything is to be completely cool, crystal clear*, yet it has been said that "without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace". Is it so? And what I think is noteworthy, often I am quick to say or to do something, because I strongly feel that, eventually, everything loses its significance, we lose our significance.


That sounds like 4 over 2, I think I typed your heart fix as 4 rather than 2 and I still think it fits a lot and it could even be your core. Turns out I'm a core 4 too who's been disintegrating pretty badly and messed up everything about her own type so I feel pretty horrible at typing people right now, especially due to my inability to properly communicate why do I intuit certain things... they turn out to be right, I'm just objective logic-impaired. The bolded is something I can definitely see myself in, especially the constant anger and sadness and the need to make other people feel the same, the drive to break them and make them feel just as terrible as you are and being completely envious of their happiness as you can feel it too and it breaks you. Earlier I was thinking that it's something like what Elphaba sings about in the songs "I'm not that girl" or "Defying Gravity", she's jealous of Glinda, of her seeming perfection but what she wants isn't her perfection, she hates it and wants to break it, she just wants Fiyero and to be herself, to have her revenge and be understood and loved for herself faults and weaknesses. She doesn't want to adapt or popularity or everyone's love, she's just obsessive and vengeful and sad and extremely ashamed of it and i've always loved Elphaba, played her too in a school musical. Or attempted to since we never really did it. But yeah I see the 4 in you, lots and lots of it!


----------



## galactic collision

Karma said:


> @Animal
> 
> Out of curiosity, what do you think Regina Spektor's type is?


You didn't ask me, but I believe she is a 974 so/sx.


----------



## Golden Rose

justforthespark said:


> You didn't ask me, but I believe she is a 974 so/sx.


Yep! I've seen her typed as a 497 but I think she's a core 9 through and through.


----------



## heavydirtysoul

@Karma ...but then again, is it 4w5 instead of 4w3?


----------



## Animal

@Karma @justforthespark
I just remembered, I was on another thread typing a bunch of musicians just last week and she was on it. I'd forgotten her name but I remember the song. And on that thread, I typed her as a core 9 and I was very forceful about it.  I dont' remember what fixes I had said, so I will try to find the posts.


----------



## galactic collision

Animal said:


> @Karma @justforthespark
> I just remembered, I was on another thread typing a bunch of musicians just last week and she was on it. I'd forgotten her name but I remember the song. And on that thread, I typed her as a core 9 and I was very forceful about it.  I dont' remember what fixes I had said, so I will try to find the posts.


Yes, I remember, because I thought she might be a 4 and you were like NO and I was like oh okay.  I am completely certain she has a 4 fix and a 7 fix though. Don't know the order but imo she's a 479 poster child


----------



## Paradigm

Stelliferous said:


> I have to go help my sister paint. What what you describe the conflict as? That's a pretty broad idea of a problem. I'll reply later. *hugs*


Yeah, I guess it is broad. I was asking more how you think a 1w9 would typically handle an argument with another person. A disagreement, a fight, whatever. Someone else making them angry, and not necessarily morality-based. I'd rather keep it somewhat vague, but let me know if that's not enough.


----------



## Purrfessor

Paradigm said:


> Yeah, I guess it is broad. I was asking more how you think a 1w9 would typically handle an argument with another person. A disagreement, a fight, whatever. Someone else making them angry, and not necessarily morality-based. I'd rather keep it somewhat vague, but let me know if that's not enough.


Ok I was mainly wondering if it was inner conflict or outer conflict. Conflict with self or conflict with others. @Dalton


----------



## Purrfessor

@Animal

I notice you type musicians with lyrics. But what about the way they sing?


----------



## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> I notice you type musicians with lyrics. But what about the way they sing?


Yes I take that into account as well, very deeply. If you see my comments on the other thread - you'll notice. \

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/364722-they-4s.html

Throughout, there is a lot of that. A few at the end too I think. I can't possibly find all the posts.

Music is my first language :ninja:


----------



## Purrfessor

@Paradigm
Ok so my little theory about conflict is that conflict is a change of pace. So the first thing a 1 would do obviously is be a 1 and just know the right answer/ right thing to do. Then this gets challenged and the 1 grows 5-like (since 5 is on opposition to 1). The 1 absorbs information like a 5. But the 1 will find the right answer again (hopefully) or else disintegrate to 4 and grow angrier and angrier with self. Until they explode in Wrath because they give up on finding out how best to outwardly act and they just act with all their rage. That's an extreme though. And even more often than that, a 1 is already set on action and conflict can easily be dismissed or avoided because their eyes are set elsewhere. They are opposite of 5 so they only go into 5-mode when seriously challenged. I think type 1 calmness in the heat of the moment is actually 5-mode and has nothing to do with 9. 1s usually find a way out of a pickle because of this behavior... But if they don't - expect obsession with the self (4 disintegration) to figure out how better to achieve what they are working toward. And expect full on Wrath when they give up. I think the difference between 1w9 and 1w2 is simply where they set their actions. A 1w9 should act toward something to prolong harmony for others, a 1w2 will act toward others desires more, which could change a lot. I think they handle conflict the same however.


----------



## Golden Rose

sweet disaster said:


> @Karma ...but then again, is it 4w5 instead of 4w3?


This double post was brought you by Oreo ©


----------



## Golden Rose

sweet disaster said:


> @Karma ...but then again, is it 4w5 instead of 4w3?


I'm not even sure about my own wing, people jumped at w3 but I'm actually a lot more withdrawn and cerebral than I look like (and just the awareness of it not working, makes me sick) so I can't probably help you there, my typing skills are extremely overrated. I can identify people's types accurately but I can't explain why, doing more harm than good, so yeah! Hope that someone will help out with your wings, since even my own are such a mess right now.


----------



## Entropic

xdollie. said:


> How the fuck did I think I had an 8 in my tri-type? Reading other people's experiences, I can't relate at _all_.
> 
> I _do _have fear, I _am_ a cautious person, I couldn't do the shit some of you have done. Like, taking drugs for example, I've never experimented with that, not even weed! (although I _really_ want to). The most I've done was take half of a Valium pill (it was a small dose, but I halved it anyway...and I think it was Valium, something for anxiety anyway) when my anxiety and depression were off the charts crazy. I just couldn't fucking relax, I had to do something to take the edge off.
> 
> Despite it being a small dose, it really hit me fucking hard. I felt high, confused and dazed. For hours I just sat, staring into space with a stupid smile on my face. I felt so fucking calm and relaxed and it was so good. I felt free. Then I collapsed onto the couch and started laughing because I felt that good. My speech was slurred, and I couldn't even walk in a straight line, it was fucking crazy. My body has a low intolerance to pretty much everything, I guess that explains it.
> 
> The next day though, I wasn't feeling as bad as what I did before, but I craved that feeling. I wanted to knock myself out, I wanted that happy/relaxed/drunk feeling. I missed it, it felt so good. I got as far as putting the pill in my mouth, but I spat it out when I realised what I was doing. I was relying on substances to get me through the day, and that was alarming. I felt stupid, and I was so annoyed/upset with myself to sink that low. It was weak, that's what weak people did. They have to rely on that shit because they can't handle life. I wasn't going to be weak. I wasn't going to be pathetic. I just couldn't do that. Not only that, but I didn't want to disappoint those I loved. What would my parents say if they knew what I was thinking/doing? What would my friends think? I felt so guilty and rotten, so I just sat around, dealing with my emotions on my own. However, I kept staring at the drugs on the kitchen counter, just longing to go over there and knock myself out.
> 
> Sometimes I still think about it, because the feeling was that good, but I don't, because I have willpower. I can fall into bad habits and get addicted easily to things, but I have a strong mind. If I know something is bad/dangerous, I'll control myself to stay on top of things and to not fall into the darkness my 7 impulses scream at me to do.
> 
> I think an 8 would just do it and not even care. Not because they couldn't handle whatever was stressing them out, but because they wanted to. Like, "Yeah, that felt awesome, so I'll do it again and not give a fuck." I don't think they'd have the inner battle and conflict like I felt.


Eh, actually, it's typical for 8 to berate oneself for one's perceived weaknesses like this. It's not like 8 would just "do it" unless it's something they must do in order to get through the day. Taking valium pills is a bad example because 8 only shuts down to _negative experience_, not necessarily positive. I've been hospitalized a lot for example, and whenever nurses/docs came to want to do exams etc., I'd shut down because it's not a pleasant experience. Shutting down relates to the negative, not the positive.

To clarify my previous post, 8s and 9s shut down their consciousness to any sense of perceived pain, ergo my emphasis on negative experiences. They will will through negative situations by numbing themselves to the actual experiences they feel and at least for type 8, if the pain they are trying to numb themselves to seeps into consciousness anyway, they may berate themselves for not being strong enough to harden through it.


----------



## Animal

Stelliferous said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> I notice you type musicians with lyrics. But what about the way they sing?


How they sing - very indicative. There are clear patterns here which work every time.
The lyrics - indicative but only over many albums recorded over years. Themes .
The videos - this can help a lot if the songwriter took part in writing the videos. Symbolism, its use.. is more telling than anything else on this list, but the problem is many people are involved with a video production, so it is not always a pure indicator of the songwriter's type. There is also budget to consider for independent artists, and record company demands to consider for big artists.
The way the music moves - this is crucial. If the singer wrote her/ his own songs, and the songs move a certain way, there are types that can be determined and ruled out. Some types of song structures fit. Arrangements, timing, instrumentation - all of these can be telling. It has to be taken into account that for many singers, the band takes part in this and it's not entirely their vision.. but still there are pretty clear patterns. As a songwriter/ musician myself, this is something I can decipher, but it would not be easy to explain to a non-musician, why it is indicative of certain things.
The way the singer/songwriter moves - highly indicative of many things.
Interviews - this is crucial. Usually if I take all the other things into account properly the interview will serve to distinguish between two probable types.

I will not be explaining this in words however.. not for a long time. I have a system and it is working well lately, but I'm still refining it and learning more and more. Other people do this too, some better than I do, and I am picking their brains over time. There is still room for error and I am not claiming to be perfect or right. But if I do it long enough I may get some writing in one place on this topic - because I find it _immensely_ interesting.


----------



## cinnabun

Entropic said:


> Eh, actually, it's typical for 8 to berate oneself for one's perceived weaknesses like this. It's not like 8 would just "do it" unless it's something they must do in order to get through the day. Taking valium pills is a bad example because 8 only shuts down to _negative experience_, not necessarily positive. I've been hospitalized a lot for example, and whenever nurses/docs came to want to do exams etc., I'd shut down because it's not a pleasant experience. Shutting down relates to the negative, not the positive.
> 
> To clarify my previous post, 8s and 9s shut down their consciousness to any sense of perceived pain, ergo my emphasis on negative experiences. They will will through negative situations by numbing themselves to the actual experiences they feel and at least for type 8, if the pain they are trying to numb themselves to seeps into consciousness anyway, they may berate themselves for not being strong enough to harden through it.


Thanks, but I'm still sure my gut fix isn't 8 ^^.


----------



## Entropic

xdollie. said:


> Thanks, but I'm still sure my gut fix isn't 8 ^^.


Not saying it was. Just saying that the way you think 8s will through things here isn't necessarily how it's being done.


----------



## mushr00m

Im doubting the 4 fix in my try-type since reading a post from @katherine8 in another thread that you probably ain't a 4/fixed if you simply can't locate your source of envy and I don't know if I can or if it exists, it's so deeply buried or don't know how to recognise it. I don't know if the bitterness I have towards others sometimes is actually envy or just normal bitterness which is understandable for not making things happen and then resenting others who have made things happen or were lucky to have been born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Or is this indicative of type 3 in terms of being focused more on the making things happen but not being confident enough or deserving enough for it to happen. How much do 3's self analyse, it seems they do a lot in order to maintain the image they want to show the best side of themselves. My image isn't pristine all the time but I certainly don't like doing my dirty washing in public - does that mean I'm 3 fixed. I've been toying around with a 2 fix even. Something that did strike true with the 4 is when being excluded/ignored and the resulting feeling is complete shame and self-fulfilling prophecy at this, I feel unwelcome in nearly every social interaction etc. I really don't know tbh. And I know I'm an sp dom but don't know the secondary instinct so just settled comfortably on the near certainty on being sp dom. 

Im gonna tag @Animal as I really appreciate her insights on 4's although if you don't have anything to say, that's cool and thank you if you have any opinions etc.


----------



## Animal

@_mushr00m_ - what are your first two fixes? Also your instinct stacking? That will help me think through it 

What are the reasons you chose 4 fix in the first place?

What are your thoughts about each possible heart-fix?

(I will respond to whatever you write when I wake up.. I'm about to go to sleep.. it's 9:13 am after all.. :bored: )


----------



## Entropic

Animal said:


> Oddly enough I have heard this sentiment from no less than THREE other sixes this week. Almost exactly. About wasted time, regrets at not doing enough with their talents or dreams, not having gone far enough, etc.
> 
> I am sure it's a "human" sentiment. But at this point I am seeing this as a sixish sentiment, at least in terms of how it is focused on. I'm sure any type could say this though. It's just funny to me that I've heard it from so many sixes in a short time...


I think it _is_ a 6 thing; explicitly, I think it is how their disintegration manifests. I have also only ever heard and seen this expressed in 6s who are average to unhealthy. Healthy 6s do not seem to worry about this to the same degree average to unhealthy 6s do it, and they seem to think this is what they need to do in order to get by and cope in life.


----------



## Animal

Entropic said:


> I think it _is_ a 6 thing; explicitly, I think it is how their disintegration manifests. I have also only ever heard and seen this expressed in 6s who are average to unhealthy. Healthy 6s do not seem to worry about this to the same degree average to unhealthy 6s do it, and they seem to think this is what they need to do in order to get by and cope in life.


Thats so interesting that you had this same experience..

I've thought about it being a disintegration-to-3 thing also. That does make perfect sense. I'm sure anyone can have regrets that they haven't done enough, but it is interesting how that pattern seems to be something that unhealthy/momentarily unhappy 6's go back to or linger on.


----------



## Entropic

Bored so I'll play:

*Can you describe an experience in which you felt shame? What caused the shame? How did you handle it? (If you don't want to detail the experience, you can be general like "rejection makes me feel shame" or whatever, and explain how you cope. Or it could be something small, like "I was late for a meeting.")*
Shame is a feeling I don't feel or experience that much. Guilt on the other hand. 

*How do you present yourself and why? (Clothing, attitude, speech)*
Metal-ish with some East Asian male fashion overlap. I was a part of the subculture throughout most of my teens and young adult years (to the degree I've lived as a young adult, anyway). I mostly wear band shirts, dress primarily in black, I like clothes to be good-looking and have a real impact. I want it to represent me in some way or give people an idea of who I am, but I also care about fashion insofar that I want to look good and feel that I look good. I don't wear band shirts for the hell of it; they have to have a good-looking print and make some kind of sense. One of my favorites is the Ghost of Loss cover by Swallow the Sun. My biggest gripe that I have is that a lot of clothing isn't made for my size. I need to import from Asia. Also, wearing band shirts of bands you don't like or don't listen to is a big no-no.

Not sure how to answer what kind of attitude I have. I think people see me as bold and confident. I don't doubt or second guess. I don't have any particular aim or goal with who I am or how I want to be. I like to be myself. I don't have any particular speech pattern but I speak very fast because my mind is very fast. 

*Can you post 1-3 songs that you really relate to and explain why?*
I've been engrossed with this song lately:






I relate to the song because I feel that the lyrics really represent and reflect how I feel about life right now. I relate to the song because I feel it explains how I see and relate myself to the world, this sense that you did something bad in the past, now you really just want to live alone in peace and be left alone but then you get involved with others and the world again and at some level that involvement is very painful because it reminds you of what you've done and who you are but there's just no way you can atone for those sins. You can't. There's no redemption, no forgiveness, nothing. I just think the song is 8-ish though. 

I also really like this song:






I think it describes my inner experience well, just this feeling of everything's dead, numb, grey. There's no life here and how you just like, struggle, to feel anything at all. 






The anger, really, taking revenge on the world. It fucked you over, you are gonna fuck it back. No remorse, no regret. They deserve it. 






I think this song describes how I feel about intimate relationships a lot. The fear that you give it all to your loved one, you'll do it easily anyway, but that they will walk away from you, leave you behind because they don't need you and your strength and protection anymore. Grow out of it. You'll be proud to see that independence but also I suppose, feeling lonely and left behind? Feeling like there's nothing more left for you here and that you can't follow. You are from two different worlds, you protected their goodness and they survived but you being bad, you can't follow them. You must depart. 

*What is your ideal self? How far are you from that? What do you do to try to get there?*
Can't say I have one. I try to be myself. 

*If you are not your ideal self, do you try to present aspects of it anyway? If so, how do you do this?*
No. I always strive towards being authentic.

*What is the difference between "public you" and "the real you" ?*
I think people on this forum may think I'm a little bit more gruff and confrontational and intellectual than I really am. RL me is very social and sociable. 

*Which of your qualities do you feel are lovable?*
No idea. I can't say I have a fundamental sense of feeling lovable or that I have qualities or traits I find to be lovable.

*Which qualities are shameful or unlovable?*
I don't experience much shame but the shame I do feel it's more just a feeling that my entire being is bad. I experience guilt far more than I do shame. 

*What do you do to avoid being rejected (at work, in love, by friends, whatever)?*
I reject first.


----------



## cinnabun

Animal said:


> - Can you describe an experience in which you felt shame? What caused the shame? How did you handle it? (If you don't want to detail the experience, you can be general like "rejection makes me feel shame" or whatever, and explain how you cope. Or it could be something small, like "I was late for a meeting.")


Any time I feel jealous, I feel shame after it. I feel embarrassed and childish. My reasons for jealousy are listed down below.



Animal said:


> - How do you present yourself and why? (Clothing, attitude, speech)


Happy, confident, fierce, powerful, strong, no-nonsense, straight-talking, queen, bubbly, kind, sweet, creative and artistic.

I dress depending on my mood, that's a huge factor with my appearance. If I can't be fucked, I wear hoodies and sweat pants with minimal make-up because lazy lol, and I don't give a fuck about what people think. I want to be comfy.

If I want to make more of an effort, I plan my ouftits. I can either dress grungey/street and these are more dark coloured clothes. Or, I can dress sweet and girly and cute, and these are more feminine and brightly coloured clothes.

Speech...idk. I try to sound smart, but I'm very self-concious of this LOL, so even when I try, I still think I sound like a dumbass XD. I try to sound happy and confident?



Animal said:


> - Can you post 1-3 songs that you really relate to and explain why?


I'm not really someone who listens to songs and relate tbh, I just listen and either love it or don't care XD.

However, this song really relates to and my spontaneous, crazy emotions and thoughts. One minute I can be down in the dumps, but then I'll work on it and feel like the sun again. It describes the bursts of intense energy I feel and how carefree I can be. I just want to have fun and to explore, I don't care about the consequences. I just want to do it now! It describes my positivity. I realise this world is kinda shitty, and while it can get you down, with all the depressing shit happening, you just have to get by it and focus on the good things.








Animal said:


> - What is your ideal self? How far are you from that? What do you do to try to get there?


Happy, adventurous, carefree, spontaneous, creative, artistic and kind.

I feel miles away from it. With my depression, I don't feel I'm on track with it at all. I actually think I've been depressed longer than a year (I was diagnosed with it last year) but I think it's been ongoing since my mid teen years, maybe? The reason I say this is because when I was younger, I was very creative and artistic. I was constantly writing creative stories and drawing and painting images to go along with the ideas in my head, so I could represent what I was seeing. I wanted to get that across, so it was as if everyone could read my mind. During 14-16 I was passionate about writing. I used to write fanfiction and it was such a buzz. It thrilled me so much, I felt so amazing and it was like emotional therapy and it was fucking so ugh. WONDERFUL! But aged 17 I just lost interest and idk why. It began to feel more like a chore than a passion. It just died and I'm still not sure why. Same with my art, I just began to lose interest. Like everything I loved, I just didn't care for anymore, and since then I've still not gotten back into it.

I used to be described as creative, but not so much anymore. My mum actually said to me a while ago I wasn't, and that hurt so badly, worse than any insult. I felt angry. It's weird, but I can understand where she's coming from. I have Ne, I need to show the world what I'm imagining, I need to get it out there, and I always used to...however, since a few years ago, I've not. It's as my Ne has died. All my creativity and imagination is stuck inside, where only I can see it and appreciate it. My imagination is still running wild, and I love it, but I just don't express it to other people, so I can totally understand why I'm not seen as creative anymore. If only people could climb into my brain, it would be better. I've just been stuck in a rut and don't know how to escape it and be like how I used to, and it frustrated me to fuck. I've felt a bit more inspired this week, and wrote a poem when I was feeling crazy happy, and it was wonderful. I hope I can stick with it.

My kindness is on track, adventurous is not, but for the same reason above ^. Depression has kind of pulled the plug with it, but I'm battling with it everyday. I try and get there by imagining all the things I want to achieve and accomplish in life, and I escape to my fantasy land and it's fantastic. I hope it will motivate me to make it work, you know? I've been feeling a bit happier this week, so I think this is a good sign.



Animal said:


> - If you are not your ideal self, do you try to present aspects of it anyway? If so, how do you do this?


I try and show off my Ne more on here than I do irl, because irl it's stuck inside me. it's dead. I try to show it off here by saying unusual things and strange metaphors and with my word-choice and sense of humour and my strange ideas, because I'm much better at writing things to express myself than actually doing it.



Animal said:


> - Which of your qualities do you feel are lovable?


I'm very understanding. For those I love and care for, I will listen to whatever issue they have and try and make them feel happy and comfortable again, because I want them to be happy and I want to take their pain away. Even if I don't understand everything they're going through, I process it internally and try and imagine how it would make me feel. I get a "feel" of their emotions and their situation, so it's as if I am going through it myself. I'm very easy to talk to about these things, and will try my best to help.

My loving and caring nature. I'm such a softie to those I love. I'm constantly reminding them how much I fucking love them and why they're awesome and OMG THIS IS WHERE I EXPLODE AND MY INTENSITY BURSTS BECAUSE I CAN'T KEEP IT INSIDE AND I FUCKING WANT TO HUG THEIR FACES but anyway, yeah. I love to express my feelings for people, I make them feel loved and special, because it's such a great feeling (more so expressing your love for someone than making them feel loved, selfish?) I'm very affectionate and I've been told I can be a bit much with this, but I can't help it. With me, you'll always feel loved and appreciated. I like to take care of people and animals (I LOVE ANIMALS SO MUCH) and just spread my feels ^^.



Animal said:


> - Which qualities are shameful or unlovable?


My jealousy. I'm quite a jealous person, and it's horrible. I feel jealous whenever someone I love is raving about someone else. For example, my best friend talking about this new person they met. How fun and awesome they are. I feel really bitter and start comparing myself to this new person even though I don't know them. "How much fun are they? Are they more fun than me? Who is this bitch? Why is she so amazing? Pft, I'm better, I know I am...I have to be or else I'll be forgotten about. I need to get the attention back to me! *says something funny*". I really hate it about myself. It's so childish and ugly. I never ever speak those thoughts aloud, or give any clue as to how I'm feeling, I keep it inside and have a smile plastered on my face and pretend I'm okay. Then when I meet the person, I size them up and try to one up them. Then when I feel that they're not a threat to me, that they're not affecting my awesome-ness, I relax and begin to like them. 

Selfish-ness. I can be quite selfish and do things just for myself. Not all the time, just sometimes. Idk. Tbh, I don't really know how to feel about this, all my life I've been called selfish by my mother, and I don't really think I am. I can have my moments for sure, but doesn't everyone? I guess it's kinda drilled into me that I am.



Animal said:


> - What do you do to avoid being rejected (at work, in love, by friends, whatever)?


I go out of my way to talk to people. I try and be noticed (and in a good way). I'll take time to get to know them and to ask them questions and make them feel awesome and special and make them understand they can trust me and that I'm funny (I try hardest with being funny and random, ew) and that I'm generally awesome. I want to make them feel special, but at the same time, I try and highlight my own brilliant-ness. However I stay true to myself, I don't act fake.

However, at the same time, I put a barrier up. While I'm very excited when getting to know someone, and I throw myself at them with enthusiasm, I'm guarded. I don't want to get hurt. I share a lot about myself, but I still keep things private. It's weird.


----------



## Kisshoten

@Animal

*Can you describe an experience in which you felt shame? What caused the shame? How did you handle it? (If you don't want to detail the experience, you can be general like "rejection makes me feel shame" or whatever, and explain how you cope. Or it could be something small, like "I was late for a meeting.")
*In the first year of college, all the freshman are expected to wear some manner of ethnic dress and come to a little celebration, something of a party. I was so embarrassed to wear that stuff. The only way I could avoid wearing ethnic stuff would have been to avoid the entire event. But then, that event is supposed to be the most fun a freshman ever has and it's kinda like an initiation into college-life (Think of it as something akin to prom-night.. except, you don't have dates and there is lot more to do than just dance or whatever else that happens). I didn't want to miss it. And so I had to go along. 

I went to the party and couldn't stop thinking how stupid I must look in that dress. People at home thought I looked great. None of my friends made any unusual remarks (unusual in the sense, it was all the regular kind of pleasant talk... people say nice things to everyone.. "hey, your dress is pretty" or "I like the color" or something...). But the feeling just wouldn't go away. 

(That party is also the time when.. well, peeps "mingle." Boy meets girl, girl meets boy, etc. I still find it embarrassing to admit but I thought the stupid dress would ruin my chances, although I had none to begin with... or.. whatever chances I had were ruined in totality when I displayed my.. not-so-submissive side to everyone) 

I had an awful mood and found it very difficult to keep my mind from thinking about how ridiculous I appeared. I bet no one else noticed though, coz, I have a knack for hiding things that make me self-conscious. 

Later that day, there was a misunderstanding between me and a would-be classmate of mine. He thought I was being rude because I motioned him to make way for me as I said "excuse me" but he couldn't hear me and assumed I was being elitist in gesturing him to move aside while not even addressing him. That issues didn't bother me much.. apart from making me hate the outfit and that stupid day even more. I waited for a little while after that and ran home to change over to something more comfortable. I also remember having whined to my mother about how I was right all along about that day. I had been whining the previous day about how the party would be totally horrible and how something was bound to happen that totally ruin my mood. I may also have cried when I came back home, I can't recall. 
*
- How do you present yourself and why? (Clothing, attitude, speech)
*I usually wear comfy clothes. Mostly jeans and t-shirts. Nothing else seems.. as.. carefree. You don't have to bother about anything with that on. At home I'm always in PJs. Nothing like the comfort of PJs. I can fall asleep any time I want to. 

Attitude.. I can't really say. I'm just like usual. Except, I talk less and observe more. Or, if I have an objective to fulfil (like, if I'm shopping, or doing something very specific) I just mind my own business and that's that. I don't spend my time doing anything other than what I have to be doing in that place.. coz.. the sooner I finish the work part of it, the sooner I can come back home and watch movies, or play videogames, or do whatever the hell I want to.

Speech.. I try to crack jokes, but it doesn't always work. Most people don't get my jokes, or find them strange. I also have good command over English and if I speak and utter a couple of words in english they give me that look.. like.. "huh? what did u just say? Could you please use the common tongue and not show off?!"

*- Can you post 1-3 songs that you really relate to and explain why?
*



This is what I think about everything and anything. 

I have to do what I think is best and I have no set parameters to determine what is "best." I don't care what you think. I don't care what is popular. I don't give a shit about anything. I have to figure out everything for myself. You can't make me do anything I don't want to do. It's just best sometimes if you leave me to my devices. I am very much self-sufficient. And if I'm not acting like it it's because it's easier to have someone else provide certain things for you and they don't mind helping me out. XD






Everything he says is true about me and the more I think about it, the more I realize that all I want in this life is to enjoy myself in that moment, to savor life, to feel lucky to be alive and to live the fuck out of life  . Nothing else matters to me. If it wasn't about being able to afford enjoyable things (whether in terms of time or money or even the good fortune) I really wouldn't have studied, had a job, earned money or done any of those things. I just don't care. 

I have a lot of other songs that I relate to.. but I mostly relate to them in parts. Bits and pieces, here and there. Very few songs I can relate to in their entirety. 

- *What is your ideal self? How far are you from that? What do you do to try to get there?
*My ideal self is.. godlike...in terms of ability. As in, I can do anything in this world and I can do it better than anyone else, ever. 
Well, I'm as far as I'll ever be, I guess.  My ideal self is... a fairytale. I don't do anything to get to become like the fairytale because I know the limitations of reality. I'm fine enough the way I am, I guess.

*- If you are not your ideal self, do you try to present aspects of it anyway? If so, how do you do this?
*I don't "try" to present aspects of my ideal self. It just happens automatically. I don't have to put in any effort for my ability to show. 

*- What is the difference between "public you" and "the real you" ?
*Public me is a "nice guy." Real me is obnoxious, but in a fun way.

*- Which of your qualities do you feel are lovable?
*Humor. 
Ability to not be a downer, or to show you how to move ahead when you think the road ahead is impassable. 
Clarity.
Honesty.
Playfulness. 

*- Which qualities are shameful or unlovable?
*I'm quite selfish. It's not exactly shameful, but.. I'd feel bad for you if you loved me a lot and turned a blind eye towards my selfishness and I don't want that. 
Apathy, i.e., a lack of those warm, fuzzy emotions that most people look for in a significant other.

*- What do you do to avoid being rejected (at work, in love, by friends, whatever)?*
I don't really do anything to avoid being rejected. I've been rejected very few times, but those few times were enough for me. I pretty much take it for granted that I'll be rejected, especially romantically. No hope there. 

If someone rejects me, I remove them from my life. That chapter is closed and that's that.


----------



## Entropic

Animal said:


> Thats so interesting that you had this same experience..
> 
> I've thought about it being a disintegration-to-3 thing also. That does make perfect sense. I'm sure anyone can have regrets that they haven't done enough, but it is interesting how that pattern seems to be something that unhealthy/momentarily unhappy 6's go back to or linger on.


I think anyone can have regrets yes, but in 6s there seems to be an underlying fear of failing at life if they are not successful enough that I have yet to hear from someone else.


----------



## Purrfessor

Entropic said:


> No idea about the others but I have read Anthony Kiedis' autobiography and I think he is a 7. A lot of the songs by Red Hot Chili Peppers tend to reflect some kind of positive outlook, but I think Under the Bridge is a particlarly good example of it. Lines like these for example:
> 
> 
> 
> What is prevalent in Kiedis' life is how he was a bit of a vagabond/free spirit kind of person, moving from place to place and often having issues taking life in a serious kind of way, even during times where he definitely should have had such as during his drug addiction. It was only when he lost one of his good friends that he began to realize the severity of addiction and what it leads to. While intelligent and having an easy time picking up new subjects, he was often more interested in trying out the new and definitely in getting to and experience the high. He wanted to have a fun and good time in life and he rarely thought about the consequences of his actions in this way. He dated many women as well, some of them far older than himself, and what is noticeable is how many of his relationships ended very prematurely. Very stormy and passionate but he had immense issues settling down and he grew bored of his relationships once they began to require some serious committment etc.
> 
> I'm going off memory now from what I remember of the book because it was some time ago since I read it, but I think RCHP reflect Anthony's 7-ish attitude to life, personally.


Yes this is why it's my 2nd favorite. It captures the 7 integration to 5 beautifully. It is lonely because you lose the codependency of addiction but you have everything around you to enjoy and share with. There was this moment in my life where I woke up one morning after the most depressing moment of my life at the time, and I walked down the streets to my friends house and I was feeling the joy and compassion from the things around me. I was filled with so much happiness at that time. There was so much to take in... So much love around me from the environment. It was beautiful. And I went and played with my friends 4 year old sister and her joy and innocence was extreme. I was just looking in her eyes and seeing her smile and I told her that I loved her and I hugged her. I felt my child like innocence spring forth as well from that point forward. When you lose everything you have as a 7, you are forced into the environment and can regain your mind. It's a fresh start.


----------



## Dalton

@xdollie. Can't spend much time explaining ATM, but you I think you should look into type 6. You're much more self-conscious/-critical than I'd expect from a 7. You have a very 6-ish orientation to your friends, kind of like "we fight and die TOGETHER". This is barely scratching the surface, but I can talk more about it if you want.


----------



## mushr00m

katherine8 said:


> ________
> 
> Could still be 4.... perhaps 649? Finding the elitism and feeling you are above the rules is the key to finding the 4 envy when 6 is the dominant type.


Thanks. I think the elitism is twofold - I hate elitism and in others yet find myself thinking in elitist terms. I wish I could be kinda individual yet this always means I will be thought of as self-conceited which is gross. :/ 

It's not that I think i'm above the rules but if they infringe and are baseless and inhumane then I no like. 

Yeah, the 9 thing has come up before a couple of times n just wanna double check that it's not being conflated with being a phobic 6. These confusions I have seen quite a few times with phobic 6's when they actually were 1-fixed. I don't really relate to the falling asleep to yourself, I'm lazy but self critical to the point of self condemning. I think my grounded attitude presents as not caring about reform like 1's do. 

Thanks again.


----------



## mushr00m

kaleidoscope said:


> The bolded strikes me more as 4 than 3, particularly 4w3. I often feel this way, wanting to accomplish things but also being so aware of my shortcomings and limitations. Being a 4 or 4 fixed doesn't mean you can't be outwardly focused (on accomplishments or validation), but more about the way you see yourself.
> 
> Could you tell me more about your envy and your thought process when you feel this way? What do you feel bitter about?
> 
> Fwiw, I still think you're 4 fixed :3


That makes sense. And yeah, it sure is a most frustrating experience, having all these ambitions and dreams and just feeling almost disconnected from the link that gets you there. I wish there was a magic wand to make all these bad thoughts about yourself go away. 



> Being a 4 or 4 fixed doesn't mean you can't be outwardly focused (on accomplishments or validation),* but more about the way you see yourself.*


This makes a good deal of sense. Im getting that it always comes back to the self, not in necessarily in a self-absorbed way although it can be like that but I had an epiphany after reading this that it's like scanning yourself and the stuff about you that's not good becomes magnified.

I've been trying to find a way to say this, I could use an example which comes up quite a bit and it goes something like when something good happens to someone else that I have lacked in life e.g family, nice things, good childhood, i'm reminded that this hasn't happened to me, like i've not been as lucky and why have they been more lucky? And it turns into some kind of me and them. It's a bad way to think, I know it doesn't do any good to fall into those perceptions but just feel that way sometimes. The bad side of it is that I can't be grateful for what I have already. Learning the value of gratitude has been something i've thought about a lot recently.

Thanks Kalei! :kitteh:


----------



## Golden Rose

@LeoCat just came up with an interesting theory on Skype, after our extensive interaction she typed me as xNFP 4w5 8w9 6w7 (6w5? I can see a double 5 link considering how closed off and withdrawn I am, haven't really left my house in months and I obsessively gather data) but yeah, basically she saw an endless stream of Ne, Ne, Ne (her words) coming from me and I remind her of other extremely dark, raw and identity-focused, intense ENFPs. Which would explain why i feel out of place with all of the 7 or 6 ones and I'm more apathetic, angsty and cerebral ("overthinking"?). She could see INTP but it's apparently FiTe not TiFe but either way a Ne type. I don't know, I know who I am but I'm having lots of trouble placing myself into any of those boxes, everything feels so surreal.

We easily discarded the 2 as my switches were internal and disintegrated and a w3 since that's not my main drive. @Dalton and anyone who wants to take a stab at me, really. Jesus, this is so braintwisting, love it, I feel like I'm impossible to type.


----------



## Chesire Tower

WARNING: long epic post ahead.
:ninja:


* *




I regularly seethe with envy but I'd rather die than admit to it. When someone other then me gets a compliment/attention; I rage inside that it wasn't me but I seem to have a twisted need to do this, because as soon as I start to think objectively and realize that I may have received similar compliments/attention, I find something else in my life to throw an inner pity party about but I keep it to myself. When people treat me well, I love it but I'm secretly thinking to myself, 'if they knew the real me . . .' but again as soon as I apply logic, I realize that it doesn't make any sense; yet I do this compulsively. 

I have been told on more than one occasion that t"he world doesn't revolve around [me]" and that just makes me even more determined to get my way, because I interpret that statement as yet another annoying attempt to once again - shame and manipulate me from getting my rightful needs met. It really pisses me off to no end, when others seem to expect me to basically throw myself under the bus for the sake of others. This has pretty much been the story of my life. I've paid my dues a gazillion times over and suffered the consequences of neutralizing myself and it's gotten me freaking nowhere.

On others forums than this one - especially pre-2012; I would pick fights with people and be very aggressive in getting my way. IRL, getting my way is practically obsession for me but never in close relationships where - unless extremely unhealthy - I tend to avoid drama for the most part. On other message boards, I have been accused of being a drama queen and/or seeking negative attention.

I think that the reason some people think I'm a 9 is that I always say how much I hate drama and intensity; well, that's because, I used to be the one who would alternately embarrass and humiliate myself, creating it. Apparently since I recovered from my lethal illness, I still won't back down from a fight if I think I am right about something but again, rarely with friends and relationships but I now try to avoid being emotional and stick to logic and charm and if I'm really irritated, sarcasm.

However, my first line of defense is always logic, charm and humour. As far as I'm concerned, if I can get my way without "drawing any blood"; then why would I want to go out of my way to deplete my energy by causing tension and bad feelings? I honestly don't understand people whose first line of defense is to be combative. The important thing is to get your way and be fair to all parties involved. I also know - unlike my extremely aggressive late mother - when to back off, when further arguing is futile.

I know that I am a withdrawn type because, the behaviour I've described above only occurs when am forced to interact with the outside world. I am far more interested in figuring out myself and others than I am in interacting with them. So, I may not easily back down from getting my way - after charm or logic have failed but (on the whole) I don't really stress about it too much, unless I either feel that myself and others are being abused or my/other's rights are egregiously being violated, or if my boundaries are violated, or if someone goes out of their way to either callously or deliberately shame me.

For the most part, I like to joke around and have fun but - due to the fact that my narcissistic mother didn't mirror me properly - I live in constant dread of engulfment. I am obsessive about enacting stringent boundaries around anything to do with my "identity". I jealously control access to any personal information and - at my whim - dole it out like candy. If anyone - miraculously, manages to pull this information out of me, before I'm ready or comfortable in divulging it; I feel enraged and extremely violated. and then I cut them out of my life. People who try to get close to me have called me, "guarded", "mysterious", an "enigma" and "hard to get to know". I feel that I have nothing of value other than my socially constructed "self"; so I cling to it for dear life, because without my 100% control and access to myself, I feel I have nothing.



This - to my knowledge, is the first time - I have ever been this honest. I am much more comfortable in my own skin now and far less concerned (than I used to be) that someone may consider me a really big freak.


* *




@katherine8, @TheProphetLaLa, @kaleidoscope, @Animal, @Karma, @Word Dispenser, @Kink @Flatlander *and anyone else*;


 any thoughts?


----------



## cinnabun

Dalton said:


> @_xdollie._ Can't spend much time explaining ATM, but you I think you should look into type 6. You're much more self-conscious/-critical than I'd expect from a 7. You have a very 6-ish orientation to your friends, kind of like "we fight and die TOGETHER". This is barely scratching the surface, but I can talk more about it if you want.


I have been looking into type 6, and while I can relate, it's not really me. Perhaps my 6 is strong because of my 6 wing? I've read about 6w7 and I can relate a little, but 7w6 is very much me. I'm not at all like them when under stress, I resort to the fantasy and escape of a 7. Remember that I do have depression and anxiety, so perhaps that's why I sound 6-ish? When I was reading about type 6, that's what I related to a lot, but I have a difficult time separating my health problems from my personality XD. Overall, when it comes to comfort/safety/security and freedom, I value and desire freedom so much more.

This is the first time someone has mentioned type 6, so it would be interesting to hear some more thoughts on this, perhaps from actual 6's ^^ @Lunar Light hi!


----------



## cinnabun

@Animal based on new information, do you still believe I'm a 7? Or do you perhaps think 6 as well?


----------



## SweetPickles

xdollie. said:


> I have been looking into type 6, and while I can relate, it's not really me. Perhaps my 6 is strong because of my 6 wing? I've read about 6w7 and I can relate a little, but 7w6 is very much me. I'm not at all like them when under stress, I resort to the fantasy and escape of a 7. Remember that I do have depression and anxiety, so perhaps that's why I sound 6-ish? When I was reading about type 6, that's what I related to a lot, but I have a difficult time separating my health problems from my personality XD. Overall, when it comes to comfort/safety/security and freedom, I value and desire freedom so much more.
> 
> This is the first time someone has mentioned type 6, so it would be interesting to hear some more thoughts on this, perhaps from actual 6's ^^ @Lunar Light hi!


You are not a 6.


----------



## cinnabun

MelanieM said:


> You are not a 6.


What makes you say that?


----------



## cinnabun

This is so fucking exciting. After my nap I feel much more energized and up to researching.

COME ON PEOPLE, WHO WANTS TO THROW THEIR IDEAS AT ME? They're all welcome


----------



## cinnabun

@Karma I'd also appreciate your thoughts.


----------



## SweetPickles

xdollie. said:


> What makes you say that?


I don't know you personally but from what I've gathered from your posts are you are very attention seeking, decisive, don't care much how you are perceived except to other male posters or female posters who give you compliments, while at times you may be blunt it's when you may feel ridiculed or attacked? You tell people what they like to hear to win them over, while I think 6's are more evasive or may go too far with their bluntness and alienate people. You don't seem scattered like a 6w7. You are smoother than a 6.


----------



## cinnabun

MelanieM said:


> I don't know you personally but from what I've gathered from your posts are you are very attention seeking, decisive, don't care much how you are perceived except to other male posters or female posters who give you compliments, while at times you may be blunt it's when you may feel ridiculed or attacked? You tell people what they like to hear to win them over, while I think 6's are more evasive or may go too far with their bluntness and alienate people. You don't seem scattered like a 6w7. You are smoother than a 6.


I can be attention-seeking. I like to be noticed and be the life of the party, but not all the time. Sometimes I just want to hide. It depends on my mood.

I'm not decisive at all.

That's not true, I don't only care about those people who compliment me. I don't really care about what people see me as in general. The only people's opinions who really matter to me are those few people I value within my heart. 

I can be blunt, and yeah maybe it's for that reason you suggest. Idk, it's just kinda how I am. I don't sugar-coat things.

I don't tell people what they like to hear to win them over at all, I tell what what I'm feeling about them. I'm just a very excitable person, and I can feel a rush of emotions when meeting new people. It's not so much to win them over per say (I know what post your'e referring to ^^) it's because I can see the good in them and want to tell them that. You know?


----------



## Word Dispenser

Chesire Tower said:


> WARNING: long epic post ahead.
> :ninja:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I regularly seethe with envy but I'd rather die than admit to it. When someone other then me gets a compliment/attention; I rage inside that it wasn't me but I seem to have a twisted need to do this, because as soon as I start to think objectively and realize that I may have received similar compliments/attention, I find something else in my life to throw an inner pity party about but I keep it to myself. When people treat me well, I love it but I'm secretly thinking to myself, 'if they knew the real me . . .' but again as soon as I apply logic, I realize that it doesn't make any sense; yet I do this compulsively.
> 
> I have been told on more than one occasion that t"he world doesn't revolve around [me]" and that just makes me even more determined to get my way, because I interpret that statement as yet another annoying attempt to once again - shame and manipulate me from getting my rightful needs met. It really pisses me off to no end, when others seem to expect me to basically throw myself under the bus for the sake of others. This has pretty much been the story of my life. I've paid my dues a gazillion times over and suffered the consequences of neutralizing myself and it's gotten me freaking nowhere.
> 
> On others forums than this one - especially pre-2012; I would pick fights with people and be very aggressive in getting my way. IRL, getting my way is practically obsession for me but never in close relationships where - unless extremely unhealthy - I tend to avoid drama for the most part. On other message boards, I have been accused of being a drama queen and/or seeking negative attention.
> 
> I think that the reason some people think I'm a 9 is that I always say how much I hate drama and intensity; well, that's because, I used to be the one who would alternately embarrass and humiliate myself, creating it. Apparently since I recovered from my lethal illness, I still won't back down from a fight if I think I am right about something but again, rarely with friends and relationships but I now try to avoid being emotional and stick to logic and charm and if I'm really irritated, sarcasm.
> 
> However, my first line of defense is always logic, charm and humour. As far as I'm concerned, if I can get my way without "drawing any blood"; then why would I want to go out of my way to deplete my energy by causing tension and bad feelings? I honestly don't understand people whose first line of defense is to be combative. The important thing is to get your way and be fair to all parties involved. I also know - unlike my extremely aggressive late mother - when to back off, when further arguing is futile.
> 
> I know that I am a withdrawn type because, the behaviour I've described above only occurs when am forced to interact with the outside world. I am far more interested in figuring out myself and others than I am in interacting with them. So, I may not easily back down from getting my way - after charm or logic have failed but (on the whole) I don't really stress about it too much, unless I either feel that myself and others are being abused or my/other's rights are egregiously being violated, or if my boundaries are violated, or if someone goes out of their way to either callously or deliberately shame me.
> 
> For the most part, I like to joke around and have fun but - due to the fact that my narcissistic mother didn't mirror me properly - I live in constant dread of engulfment. I am obsessive about enacting stringent boundaries around anything to do with my "identity". I jealously control access to any personal information and - at my whim - dole it out like candy. If anyone - miraculously, manages to pull this information out of me, before I'm ready or comfortable in divulging it; I feel enraged and extremely violated. and then I cut them out of my life. People who try to get close to me have called me, "guarded", "mysterious", an "enigma" and "hard to get to know". I feel that I have nothing of value other than my socially constructed "self"; so I cling to it for dear life, because without my 100% control and access to myself, I feel I have nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> This - to my knowledge, is the first time - I have ever been this honest. I am much more comfortable in my own skin now and far less concerned (than I used to be) that someone may consider me a really big freak.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @_katherine8_, @_TheProphetLaLa_, @_kaleidoscope_, @_Animal_, @_Karma_, @_Word Dispenser_, @_Kink_ @_Flatlander_ *and anyone else*;
> 
> 
> any thoughts?


We-hell... Thanks for mentioning me. How cool is that! I don't think I've _ever _been mentioned for enneagram typing... 'Cause I have next to zero knowledge.

But, if I had to guess, I'm thinkin' that.. 4 makes sense. 8 makes sense. 6w7 might make more sense than 7. But, I dunno. Await other more knowledgeable opinions, hehe. roud:


----------



## FakeLefty

For those who are familiar with me and/or have read enough of my posts, what do you think my enneatype is? Tritype would be great. If you guys have any questions, ask away. If I need to fill out a questionnaire, then let me know and I'll fill it out when I'm able to.


----------



## SweetPickles

xdollie. said:


> I can be attention-seeking. I like to be noticed and be the life of the party, but not all the time. Sometimes I just want to hide. It depends on my mood.
> 
> I'm not decisive at all.
> 
> That's not true, I don't only care about those people who compliment me. I don't really care about what people see me as in general. The only people's opinions who really matter to me are those few people I value within my heart.
> 
> I can be blunt, and yeah maybe it's for that reason you suggest. Idk, it's just kinda how I am. I don't sugar-coat things.
> 
> I don't tell people what they like to hear to win them over at all, I tell what what I'm feeling about them. I'm just a very excitable person, and I can feel a rush of emotions when meeting new people. It's not so much to win them over per say (I know what post your'e referring to ^^) it's because I can see the good in them and want to tell them that. You know?


You sound 7, you sound like you easily trust and have that 7 contagious enthusiasm. I can't figure out if it's 2w3 or 3w2 that I see as well. Again, I don't know you and posts on the board are a poor way to type someone. I'm much different irl than on here. Much more shy, until I get to know (trust) someone and can be a pushover. Once I trust, I'm like a silly monkey always goofing off or having a more dry sense of humor (depends on mood Fi-Dom ). The boards give me an outlet to say whatever I'm thinking that I may hold back in person. 

Your tritype is interesting, 7-4-9 sx/sp, why social last? If you were a 6, you'd be "the Seeker". I'm a 6w?-4w?-9w1 sp/sx, most likely 6w5-4w5-9w1 just not sure w all the 5 wings, I guess because my tendency to withdraw or I'm more introverted? I lack focus and can be pretty scatter-brained, but I do like to seek knowlege in things that interest me.

Do you see yourself at all as "The Seeker" or "The Gentle Spirit" (749) personally the latter sounds better. The seeker struggles with self-consciousness and inhibition, we are huge self-doubters. "7-4-9s is the most elusive 7, positive in a gentle way with a touch of sadness" a bit future-oriented, and more optimistic than my tritype.


----------



## galactic collision

I'm wondering if 479 is a common tritype or if it's just a common mistype, especially for xNFPs. I feel like I see it everywhere and I was wondering if it's as common as it seems to be - or if I'm just seeing it a lot because I spend more time reading the posts of people like me on here.


----------



## Golden Rose

xdollie. said:


> @Karma I'd also appreciate your thoughts.


This is gonna be long, brutally honest and hopefully not too hard to follow. Learning how2paragraph.

I was discussing PerCers types with @Dalton and we both agreed that your full tritype could be 6w7 2w3 9w8. What Melanie says is actually a sign of type 6 to me and the smoothness can be attributed to the 2-fix and disintegration to 3, especially since I can see the line to 9 when you're more relaxed and generally content. The things that stand out the most about you, at least to me, is that you're extremely headstrong, aggressive, playful and confident to the point of cockiness but there's an inner layer of shyness, of anxiety, it's as if that you feel like that you have to prove how amazing you are and it comes a lot more natural when you're around people who can recognize that or who gave you their approval. For example, what Tina said about the whole "queen bee" image is actually something I've seen too, you seem to be extremely serious about it even when you're just being playful and there's that tendency of getting it all out immediately, of showing it first thing first and reacting when the status is challenged (or perceived as such, especially by someone you might dislike). The thing is that you're actually extremely nice and protective and devoted when it comes to people you appreciate or who appreciate you and being fiercely loyal and aggressively protective of their loved ones and surrounding is typical 6, as well as fearing betrayal and having trust issues, once your trust gets broken you have a hard time dealing with it and it's almost impossible to regain it again whereas many 7s are more chill with that, more indulgent.

Under stress your first reaction isn't to escape or distract yourself, it's to attack, to jump into the fight, to defend what you have through nails and teeth. I can see why you thought you had an 8 fix but an 8 fix is different, you're aware of your strength and you have a hard time holding it in, you don't mind picking your own battles while you lick up your wounds although you're ready to react again. But a Six can't wait, even if it's just through intimidation, a Six has clear berserk buttons (in your case animal cruelty, people you care about being hurt, your own feelings and pride) that make them go into fight or flight mode. They have a lot of escapism too, they're one of the most intelligent and smart types out there, although w5 tends to be more cerebral and withdrawn while w7 is more optimistic, energetic, fighting against their anxiety through activity and imagination. I could see the disintegration to 3 as your first reaction to our conflict was openly attacking and reassuring yourself that you were amazing and deserving of love and better than I was while I went into 4-angsty self ashamed mode with all of that pent 8 ready to eventually come out at another time, but it was mostly retreating into myself while reacting inwardly and outwardly when it came to "being misunderstood". Melanie didn't see the anxious side of you, the side that makes you feel exposed and vulnerable when posting private stuff on the forums or just sharing it... which makes me think of a 2w3 heart fix because 4s are obsessed with their individuality, we're so self loathing and envious that we want what we can't have and hate ourselves because we're throwing way our humanity and individuality while doing so. A 4 takes inspiration from within when it comes to identity, even a 4w3 as they're just bolder about it and less 'awkward', while a 2 seeks people's approval, they're smooth, they're believable, they feel a need to be needed and to have people rely on them and their abilities, love and strength. 

Both 6s and 2s are extremely aware of social status or what people think of them to the point of paranoia sometimes, there's a need to gain someone's respect, a certain demand of being trusted while not being trusting themselves... because not all 6s have trouble opening up, especially not 2-fixed ones (Tina), they have no trouble showing their insides yet they always feel like they have to prove something, that people aren't giving them enough credit or they might backstab them. Even your way of dealing with love and PDA comes from a self-reassuring way, a need to show off your feelings to the world to understand how strong they are and be aware that you don't have to mistrust, it even took you a while to take that leap. Both 7w6 and 6w7 seek refuge from boredom and anxiety but 7w6 are less guarded, less reactive, more chill and eager to fight negative feelings through humor and distractions (I remember Superflous talking about how she went to a party after a serious loss as she couldn't process that kind of feeling, it didn't really kick in until later) and they're more """class clown""" in a less self aware way. I pretty much agree with everything you said about 9w8, I can see it, you don't deal that much with anger, it just comes out after you're reacting to something triggering otherwise you're pretty chill and tend to avoid open confrontation.

ExFP 6w7 2w3 9w8 sx/sp but then again, I don't know you that well, our interactions are odd.


----------



## mushr00m

@xdollie - you seem 8 fixed from what i've seen. You seem to have more energy, more dominant in the environment and more assertive with your energy/decisions than a 9 fixer. Just my $2 though.


----------



## cinnabun

mushr00m said:


> @xdollie - you seem 8 fixed from what i've seen. You seem to have more energy, more dominant in the environment and more assertive with your energy/decisions than a 9 fixer. Just my $2 though.


Thank you so much ^^

I'm not really all that assertive. More stubborn I guess LOL. 9w1 description really hit home with me ^^ but I'm still not making a complete decision, I want to keep the options open XD.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Karma said:


> Even your way of dealing with love and PDA comes from a self-reassuring way, a need to show off your feelings to the world to understand how strong they are and be aware that you don't have to mistrust, it even took you a while to take that leap.


That's an interesting observation coming from you xD 

But seriously, how would you know that it stems from a need to show off feelings to the world? How is that even tied to type 6 and mistrust?


----------



## Golden Rose

kaleidoscope said:


> That's an interesting observation coming from you xD


I'm not denying i went overboard too, in a different way, though it doesn't to have to be some kind of secret business.



> But seriously, how would you know that it stems from a need to show off feelings to the world? How is that even tied to type 6 and mistrust?


I was discussing the heart fix but it took her a lot of time before realizing her feelings and trusting a possible relationship, on her own admission.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Karma said:


> I'm not denying i went overboard too, in a different way, though it doesn't to have to be some kind of secret business.


Curious as to how it's different for you?



> I was discussing the heart fix but it took her a lot of time before realizing her feelings and trusting a possible relationship, on her own admission.


That is a human thing, not a 6 thing.


----------



## Paradigm

justforthespark said:


> I'm wondering if 479 is a common tritype or if it's just a common mistype, especially for xNFPs. I feel like I see it everywhere and I was wondering if it's as common as it seems to be - or if I'm just seeing it a lot because I spend more time reading the posts of people like me on here.


I'm super jaded, probably, but I think it could easily fall into the realm of mistype. Mostly because I can see people going "I'ma special 4 but it's okay I'm not _super_ emo like them other 4s 'cause lol 7 fix yo."

Similar to the "I'm _so _tough" 378 and "I'm _so _introverted" 459 and all those ones.


----------



## Golden Rose

kaleidoscope said:


> Curious as to how it's different for you?


Motivations and manifestations, at least from my own (and Dalton's) perception, however this is not about me.



> That is a human thing, not a 6 thing.


Everything is a human thing, some of it can be linked to the enneagram.


----------



## cinnabun

Karma said:


> The things that stand out the most about you, at least to me, is that you're extremely headstrong, aggressive, playful and confident to the point of cockiness but there's an inner layer of shyness, of anxiety, it's as if that you feel like that you have to prove how amazing you are and it comes a lot more natural when you're around people who can recognize that or who gave you their approval.


Eh, I guess. Honestly, I think I come off more aggressive online than irl. Playful yes. Cocky? No. not at all. I didn't realise I came across like that actually, but a few people have pointed it out and I'm surprised. I really don't take myself seriously and I was just joking around.

I gues I can seek approval, idk. Well...if I'm being honest yes.



Karma said:


> For example, what Tina said about the whole "queen bee" image is actually something I've seen too, you seem to be extremely serious about it even when you're just being playful and there's that tendency of getting it all out immediately, of showing it first thing first and reacting when the status is challenged (or perceived as such, especially by someone you might dislike).


I don't view myself as a Queen Bee xD. I'm just fucking around with all that. Sometimes if it's someone I dislike trying to challenge me, I'll be like "wtf? No lol" but that's not a lot I feel like that. I really didn't realise I came off serious about that.



Karma said:


> The thing is that you're actually extremely nice and protective and devoted when it comes to people you appreciate or who appreciate you and being fiercely loyal and aggressively protective of their loved ones and surrounding is typical 6, as *well as fearing betrayal and having trust issues, once your trust gets broken you have a hard time dealing with it and it's almost impossible to regain it again whereas many 7s are more chill with that, more indulgent.*


Wrong. I don't have trust issues. I do have a guard up and don't want to be hurt, but that's more with potential romantic interests. I'm actually pretty accepting and trusting of people until they give me a reason not to (I've witnessed odd behaviour, have a bad vibe about them). I'm open-minded when it comes to people, and it's not impossible for me to re-gain trust, I guess. Like I door-slam people like "OMFG FUCK OFF I HATE YOU" if they cross a line with me, but over time (and time can vary) I get over it, I just don't care. I don't hold grudges, I really don't. It's so hard for me to do that. I just can't hate someone to the level where I'm always like "I no trust you. I might be a little wary of them and unsure, but I'll give them a chance, I guess. I'm specifically thinking aboit this girl in high school who was unhealthy as fuck and did a lot of stupid shit to me and I was lile OMGUS <<vote silly bitch>> but she messaged me on facebook a while ago and I was talking to her. Idc. I mean even with you, I'm pretty over what happened between us. And I wouldn't say I wouldn't ever trust you again, I'm kinda warming to you I guess.



Karma said:


> Under stress your first reaction isn't to escape or distract yourself, it's to attack, to jump into the fight, to defend what you have through nails and teeth.


Wrong, my first reaction _is_ to escape. I just want to get away from whatever is causing me hurt or stress. I will indulge in things that give me pleasure and make me feel happy/good.

Then when I think about it, and analyse the situation, I'll decide if it's worthy to fight about. Usually it's not, so I leave it. However, if I feel like somebody has crossed a line with me (Fi thing) or upset someone I care about, I will jump into action. I only really spring into action right away if someone has hurt someone I care about, but even then, I'll think about it and analyse the situation. If they don't want me to, and if I think I'll cause more problems than solve them, I'll leave it, but feel annoyed.



Karma said:


> you're aware of your strength and you have a hard time holding it in


Not really.



Karma said:


> you don't mind picking your own battles while you lick up your wounds although you're ready to react again. *But a Six can't wait*, even if it's just through intimidation


I can wait, I can wait a long time before I decide it's time to react.



Karma said:


> a Six has clear berserk buttons (in your case animal cruelty, people you care about being hurt, your own feelings and pride) that make them go into fight or flight mode.


Or Fi?



Karma said:


> They have a lot of escapism too, they're one of the most intelligent and smart types out there, although w5 tends to be more cerebral and withdrawn while *w7 is more optimistic, energetic, fighting against their anxiety through activity and imagination*.


The bolded is what I do.

And I don't see myself as intelligent XD not at all.



Karma said:


> I could see the disintegration to 3 as your first reaction to our conflict was openly attacking and reassuring yourself that you were amazing and deserving of love and better than I was while I went into 4-angsty self ashamed mode with all of that pent 8 ready to eventually come out at another time, but it was mostly retreating into myself while reacting inwardly and outwardly when it came to "being misunderstood".


I really don't disintegrate to a 3 at ALL. @Lunar Light just explained this to me, and I can't relate. I disintegrate to a 1.

Also, that whole thing I wouldn't say is a 3...idk. I was pissed with you, and wanted to address an issue. I became much more aggressive because throughout our chat, I wanted to fight, and I seen how you were backing down and not fighting with me, and I just wanted to be a complete cunt. It wasn't so much about "I need to remind everyone how amazing I am to validate myself" it was more to hurt you and put you down.



Karma said:


> Melanie didn't see the anxious side of you, the side that makes you feel exposed and vulnerable when posting private stuff on the forums or just sharing it... which makes me think of a 2w3 heart fix because 4s are obsessed with their individuality, we're so self loathing and envious that we want what we can't have and hate ourselves because we're throwing way our humanity and individuality while doing so. A 4 takes inspiration from within when it comes to identity, even a 4w3 as they're just bolder about it and less 'awkward', while a 2 seeks people's approval, they're smooth, they're believable, they feel a need to be needed and to have people rely on them and their abilities, love and strength.


I#ll take this into consideration. I'm pretty confident I am a 7w6, and I've been talking to both Lunar and Dalton and they're explanations of 6's don't match me at all. My heart type I'm not so confident with, so I will research up on this ^^.



Karma said:


> Both 6s and 2s are extremely aware of social status or what people think of them to the point of paranoia sometimes, there's a need to gain someone's respect, a certain demand of being trusted while not being trusting themselves...


I don't really care about that. I don't "need" to gain respect, I'd like to, but if I don't, I don't. At the end of the day, it's their loss, not mine. I think a 6 would beat themselves up over something like that. I'm just like "meh *shrug*"



Karma said:


> because not all 6s have trouble opening up, especially not 2-fixed ones (Tina), they have no trouble showing their insides yet they always feel like they have to prove something, that people aren't giving them enough credit or they might backstab them.


I only feel the need to prove my strength, because I don't want to be seen as weak. I've been made to feel like that by my mum, who's emotionally abusive. This is where I can relate to 6, I think my 6 wing is just really strong.



Karma said:


> Even your way of dealing with love and PDA comes from a self-reassuring way, a need to show off your feelings to the world to understand how strong they are and be aware that you don't have to mistrust, it even took you a while to take that leap.


I don't really know what you mean by this. I love to show affection and love, it comes very natural to me. I've always been a very affectionate child. I don't do it so everyone can see I'm affectionate, I don't care if they don't XD. I just do it because I have these bursts of energy and love and I want to get it out.



Karma said:


> Both 7w6 and 6w7 seek refuge from boredom and anxiety but 7w6 are less guarded, less reactive, more chill and eager to fight negative feelings through humor and distractions (I remember Superflous talking about how she went to a party after a serious loss as she couldn't process that kind of feeling, it didn't really kick in until later) and they're more """class clown""" in a less self aware way.


I'd say I was a class clown and I'm less aware. I mean, I didn't even realise I came across as aggressive or a queen bee, I'm actually surprised by that, because that's' not how I am at all XD. I can actually relate a lot to Miss Super from the posts I've read of hers.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Karma said:


> Motivations and manifestations, at least from my own (and Dalton's) perception, however this is not about me.


Well yes, but I'm just honestly curious about how _your _going overboard is different from xdollie's. Indulge me. How do the motivations differ? 



> Everything is a human thing, some of it can be linked to the enneagram.


Yup. But being hesitant about a long distance relationship, I wouldn't link to being a type 6.


----------



## Entropic

@xdollie. You are an ESFP and not an ENFP. The reason are some of the stuff @Melanie mentioned being arguments for 7. Not sure how I feel they are arguments for 7, but they are definitely arguments for Se over Ne.


----------



## Golden Rose

kaleidoscope said:


> Well yes, but I'm just honestly curious about how _your _going overboard is different from xdollie's. Indulge me. How do the motivations differ?


I don't feel a need to, it's my own business.



> Yup. But being hesitant about a long distance relationship, I wouldn't link to being a type 6.


I wasn't referring to the long distance factor but I'd rather leave her private life alone as well.


----------



## cinnabun

Entropic said:


> @_xdollie._ You are an ESFP and not an ENFP. The reason are some of the stuff @_Melanie_ mentioned being arguments for 7. Not sure how I feel they are arguments for 7, but they are definitely arguments for Se over Ne.


I'm really not ESFP. I've been there and done that. I have no Se to speak of.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Karma said:


> I don't feel a need to, it's my own business.


It's okay. I have my own theories :3


----------



## Entropic

xdollie. said:


> I'm really not ESFP. I've been there and done that. I have no Se to speak of.


How so?


----------



## SweetPickles

Oh good Lord type 7 and 2 are def in her tritype. 8 makes sense too. 

2w3 for sure 

728 would make sense, especially the way Katherine Fauvre explains it. Would also make sense why all the attempts to guess dollie's type. "The Free Spirit". Social last makes sense as well.

What do I win?


----------



## cinnabun

Daleks_exterminate said:


> I'd rather be a 7w6. :crying:
> 
> *whine whine whine* wine cheese


wut wut in the butt.

y u no 7w6 ne-more.

le crey.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

xdollie. said:


> wut wut in the butt.
> 
> y u no 7w6 ne-more.
> 
> le crey.


because, we traded. :crazy:

...I think I am because I'm more abrasive than daydreamy (although honestly I'm both.) som said 7w8 and his assessment seemed fitting. Who knows though. Maybe I'm a 2w3 :laughing:


----------



## galactic collision

Throwing away anything you know about how I've typed myself, I'm curious to see how people on here would type me (core/wing, tritype, even mbti) based on a short paper I had to write for my acting professor about who I am. Admittedly I borrowed a few phrases from a past "what's my type" survey I filled out on here, but only a few toward the end, so it barely counts. 


* *




I think the most important thing about me is that I am okay with myself. I’m not the only person in the world who is okay with themselves, but I think this is something about me that makes me stand out. Even when I am not okay with the world, I am usually okay with myself at the very least. I feel that I owe myself that much, because I am stuck with myself for life. I might as well enjoy the time I have instead of wishing I were someone different. 

I do wish that some things came to me as easily as they come to other people. I wish I were more organized. I wish I were less emotionally volatile. I wish I were better at confrontations. I wish I were less trusting. I wish I were quieter. But then again, the weaknesses that I feel I have in my lack of organization, my vulnerability, my ability to trust, and my loudness – those are all strengths, too. I am spontaneous. I am open. I have a voice. These are all good things. So I’m okay with what I lack, because I like what I have.

Sometimes I am afraid that I am the second-choice friend. I am the person you call after someone else has canceled on you. It’s nice to be the first person who comes to mind in an emergency, but less nice to be the backup plan. Then again, I’m probably not the only backup plan friend in the world, and I’m probably not everybody’s backup plan. Maybe I’m the first choice in some situations, and the backup plan in others. Maybe someone would think to go to a concert with me, but not immediately think to invite me over to watch movies. I’m capable of both, but maybe the image I put out is the concert-going variety, and not the Netflix variety. 

I like attention. That’s probably why I do theatre even though I’m better at writing. Writing doesn’t make people look at you. Performing does. It’s weird, because I want to change the world, and writing is the kind of thing that promotes change and stays behind longer than any kind of performance, but as awful as it sounds, I think maybe I want to be admired even more than I want to change things. Although, if I had the choice, I’d be admired for having changed things. The weirdest thing is that I’m very afraid of people looking at me and actually seeing me, because I’m afraid they’ll have access to the parts of myself that even I can’t see, and the thought of that drives me mad. But at the same time, I don’t want to go unnoticed, and I don’t want to just be seen at the surface. 

I think I know myself pretty well, but one of my biggest fears in the world is that I actually don’t know myself at all. I know I’m an extrovert who needs a bit of alone time to process things, but that too much alone time ruins me. I know I’m an optimist in theory but not always in practice, although I try to stay upbeat. I know I’m excitable, energetic, but also contemplative, a deep thinker. I know that as disorganized as I am, I am also a control freak when it comes to the things I care about. 

I feel like I am theatre. A queer, glittery mess who speaks too loudly and loves too deeply and wants too much from life.

I know these things about myself. But what don’t I know? I don’t know how to end this. Who am I when I take all the adjectives and metaphors away? At my core – who am I?




(It has a stupid ending, but it was at one page and I needed to wrap it up.)

This is my favorite thread btw. I find that reading about how others type each other is giving me a better understanding of enneagram in practice.


----------



## 0+n*1

* *




I am going to answer this to help me explore shame and image.

- Can you describe an experience in which you felt shame? What caused the shame? How did you handle it?
When I was a kid I studied in a small school. There was only one group and being outside of the group was painful. I was part of that group but I don't remember having a significant role in the group or an identity of my own. That makes me feel ashamed. I was just there. Being nothing, doing nothing. I don't know if I felt shame back then but now that I remember it (remember almost nothing actually), I feel disappointed. This is still present today. I feel empty and blank and undefined. No matter how much I see inside of me, I end up feeling like I am nothing. This brings me shame. I feel ordinary, simple, normal, common and that brings me shame. It's not always present but when it does, it is very striking. I battle these feelings and I surrender to them at times, even convincing me is good to be just human. I don't feel special. I feel like there's nothing I can do to stop feeling so blank. Not feeling okay with is the only resource that I count with.

It's close to the first one but lacking experience in life brings me shame. I feel unexperienced, primitive, the little brother. Always learning lessons, always catching up, having nothing to teach others, nothing to share. I feel like I wasted 23 years of my life living under a rock (I am 23 yo). But this is my fault and I know it. I am going to be honest. I am not doing something to change it. I don't read and I feel uncultured. I lack the discipline. I am lazy. I don't seek a lot of new experiences. I repeat things out of boredom. It's easier that way. I am lazy. There's too much music to listen to, too much movies and tv series to watch and I don't. I am lazy. I lament and do nothing. I waste my time. I am lazy. I don't know love or sex. I don't know heartbreak or failure and I don't feel fortunate. I feel like I haven't made an effort for anything. I haven't accomplished anything. I haven't taken risks, haven't put me out there to roll with the punches. It's my fault. That's what I do to deal with this. I blame myself. Who else? At least I have a bit of dignity to admit I am responsible and this is my life and I'm screwing it up. Doing for others bringes me shame because I don't do similar stunts for me and for what I want.

Depending on others brings me shame as well. Demanding attention brings me shame. I feel desperate. Talking out loud to myself in my room makes me feel I am sick and lonely and no one's interested in what I have to say but I brought it on me because I'm self-absorbed. I don't have a job at the moment and I don't feel like going out and showing my face to the world. Being dysfuctional brings me shame. 

- How do you present yourself and why? (Clothing, attitude, speech)
I wear casual, laid back, simple clothing. Nothing really fancy or stylish or of brand. I am not flashy. I can't say I wear what I like. I like my clothes but I wish they were bolder and more eye-catching. I don't dress to impress. I do it because it's practical and comfortable. 

In terms of attitude, I try to appear distant and intriguing. And I said I try because I think I do it consciously. I also try to conceal my emotions and I try to have a blank face and neutral expressions. Sometimes I make eye contact to leave some kind of impression. I am not hostile but I do give off the impression that I don't want to have contact with others. I avoid making physical contact with others in the street, bending my body to keep distance. I'm good at avoding people. I'm good at avoding foreign bodies. But if you smile to me, I smile back; I am not an asshole. I wear headphones almost all the time. Despite this, I want to be approached. I guess I want to make others feel what they make me feel by just being themselves and minding their own business (unless they are like me trying to grab some attention). I watch people all the time and I find a lot of those people interesting. I am aware of others. I want to inspire similar feelings. 

In speech, I use sarcasm, monotonic speech and I express emotions with the way I talk and not much with my face. I speak like I do. 

- Can you post 1-3 songs that you really relate to and explain why?
I have posted these songs many times before. Some probably know what I'm going to post. Here I go.




I relate a lot to this line in the chorus. "When I was dead asleep behind towering walls, they built a world outside and I missed the wake-up call." The video is perfect as well. It has a very unventful feel. There's also a lot of people-watching. I want to feel part of something. I relate mostly to the outside charactersn watching the group, specially the guy in the bike and also to the guy in the minute 0:44. I love the scenes of the bike running through the streets. This is part of my imagery. Long paths (longing), empty streets, watching the city lights from a bridge at the end of the video. It touches on themes like escapism as well.




 "I can see it all tonight underneath a perfect sky
Where the universe revolves around the pupil of an eye
And infinities stretch out from infinities within
And I'm a part of everything, I'm a part of everything

Am I falling asleep? Is it all just a dream?
Well, the cars are like water and the road is like a stream
Rolling down through the city, flowing out into the sea
Going nowhere like me, going nowhere like me

When the morning starts to glow out in the corners of the sky
All the people come and go, and the time just passes by
Then I'm only gonna see it from the corner of my eye
When the planet spins, it sings like the wings of a dragonfly

I can see it all tonight"


There are moments when I feel connected, that I'm part of everything. And I see it all. It also touches of feelings of wanting to see it all, to know it all. Knowing that I am subjective and everyone else is. Trying to have the full picture. And also themes of aimlessness and going nowhere. And again, imagery of cities and cars and streets and lights.




"where does this ocean go? 
I really want to know 
my life is like an island 
it's time for me now to fly 
where does this ocean go?"
Déjà-vu.




"He's burned down many a bridge
And he's scared of walking in the dark
It hurts when the rain falls on his skin
Oh he is worn out from marching
And he's forgotten for what he's searching
Yet he keeps up the stride
God knows that he won't arrive"
At the end, no matter how many bridges I burn, no matter how much I try to keep distance, I want to be with others. 

---I'll post the next questions later. I feel like I'm just going to repeat myself so maybe I need some rest to come up with something new----


*

-I'll continue*-

*What is your ideal self? How far are you from that? What do you do to try to get there?
*My ideal self is being independent. I want to have thoughts of my own and not be attached to any belief system. I want to be able to do everything on my own, to be a self-starter. I want to not be influenced by anything. I want to be self-sufficient, not need things from others. I also want to be intriguing, someone that makes others want to approach me or wonder what's going on inside of my head, trying to figure me out. My ideal self is someone intelligent, creative, experienced, strong. I want to have a presence of someone that doesn't disturb but it's also undisturbed by the world. That doesn't mean I want to keep things as they are. I want to improve, I want progress, I want change, I want movement, I want to use my resources for the good fights and not for the futile conflicts humans engage in day to day. I want to be a fugacious star, almost leaving no trace but leaving a bright trail. I want to be part of life but at the same time I want to be detached from it. My ideal self is being genuine, honest with myself principally, not delusional, not denying anything, being brutally honest, real, unpretentious. My ideal self is being complex, multi-faceted, changing, to be someone that offers always something new. I want to do something of significance. My ideal self is also being understanding, to be someone that sees it all, that has a broad perception, that can see things from different perspectives. I don't want to be mediocre. I don't want to feel simply contented, I want to desire more and more and always be better and always try to improve. In a way, my ideal self is about having the power to influence everything around me and not be influenced by the world. I want a life of my own but with the company of others. I want to be part of something but also be myself. This is probably contradictive, but I know I am paradoxical, I know the human is prone to self-contradiction; I am not saying this to excuse me, but I guess we must find a balance. My ideal self is also being responsible, dealing with my own shit, not letting others carry my weight. 
* *




Note: This sounds very 9-ish, VERY, which it's not surprising but maybe the hint that I should actually read about the 9 and decide if I am one after all, so disreard my self-typing as 6, it's temporary (but what isn't?)



How far I am from that? Always far. I can get caught up in the comfortable self-perception of having achieved and be truly far. I say this because I don't want to just rest and wait things to happen. That's what I am used to. There's too much I need to DO and saying it is just a waste of time. Having the impulse to say it is just a proof that it isn't real. If it were real, I wouldn't feel the need to say it because no one is truly concerned with it except me and that's the only thing that matters. One thing that I do to try to get there is to remind me of it and not letting me just let go. I repeat it, even if it hurts. As they said: No pain, no gain. I also try to keep distance, to be more critical. Of course I need more and this doesn't suffice, it even can hinder the desired progress at times.

*If you are not your ideal self, do you try to present aspects of it anyway? If so, how do you do this?
*I don't think I present much to others. 

*What is the difference between "public you" and "the real you" ?
*I think people don't see everything that I am and that hurts me at times. I know I shouldn't worry about others not seeing the same that I do. I also notice that if I feel hurt because they don't see everything, it means that I want them to see it because I don't feel it inside unhesitatingly. As I said, I carry an stigma of being blank. It's hard to get rid of it. I cannot be dishonest and say I am full. I am not. I think I am very honest, so I like to think there's no significant difference between my public me and my real me. If there is, maybe it's not conscious. One thing that I do notice is that some people think I am nonchalant and laid back or easy going, but I am not stranger to brooding and I dwell on things. But sure, I do tend to become oblivious to things if I am feeling okay. I excuse it by saying that I am still true to my feelings and that I won't feel miserable if I am feeling serene, but I am also afraid that this state would make me forget that I have a lot to change to become closer to my ideal self, which is, as all ideals, unreachable. 

*Which of your qualities do you feel are lovable? Which qualities are shameful or unlovable?*
I think I have covered this with my other answers, but if I need to answer it here, I feel like I cannot. I don't know how to answer this question. I suppose the contents of it are in the other answers. I don't think I am focused on being loved or not, so it's rare for me to say what's lovable and what's not. Everybody needs some love, I suppose, and seeing that I don't feel much about the topic makes me think I am probably just hiding this need and I can't tell why. I suppose I want to be loved but, why do I feel I don't need it? These are the things that are the most revealing.

But I think I can answer what's shameful. It's shameful to not live your life, to be in terms of others, to be a pawn, to not have agency, to be dependent, to not be autonomous, to be dishonest, to be delusional or in denial, to not have dreams and never doing anything to pursue them, to not have any passion you invest yourself in, to be stupid, to be a conformist, to not be critical, to be simply contented, to be mediocre, to be proud of any of this just because you succumbed to the cognitive dissonance, to just give up.

*What do you do to avoid being rejected (at work, in love, by friends, whatever)?
*I feel like I don't care if others reject me and generally I am not focused on that. My focus is more on staying or not, on being remembered or forgotten. And I've never done anything crazy to avoid rejection. But now, I am starting to feel that pressure. Looking for a job and such, makes me value not being rejected and leaving good impressions. Consciously I don't do something to avoid being rejected but I suppose that subconsciously I keep distance and minimize needs to avoid being rejected. As I said above, I suppose I care and not feeling it makes me think there's something powerful happening in the background that I can only reach in moments of desperation.


----------



## 66393

@_Naqsh_ I've been reading your posts. You type as 1, but you're so actions are so blatantly 8?


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## TheProphetLaLa

Throwing myself in here in case anyone has any suggestions for type. ^.^


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## Sina

coy said:


> @_Naqsh_ I've been reading your posts. You type as 1, but you're so actions are so blatantly 8?


i appreciate your feedback. i am not currently working on typing, so i won't be commenting on this. i don't type at 8 or 1, and i'll leave it at that for now. thank you


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## DomNapoleon

6w7 vs 7w6 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/180051-phoenix-rebirth-thread.html

thread officially re-open.


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## Kisshoten

0+n*1 said:


> ........


I did not read a word. Not a word. But you have good taste. 

More evocative of a strange feeling I can't quite put into words, yet have experienced... partially. 

=/


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## DomNapoleon

@Flatlander @Animal @Paradigm 

Can you take a look at my last typing thread?


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## Animal

Mandraque said:


> @_Flatlander_ @_Animal_ @_Paradigm_
> 
> Can you take a look at my last typing thread?


I will get to it asap - Link?
I'm a bit behind on typings here, so it might not be right away but if you link it i'll subscribe.


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## Paradigm

Mandraque said:


> @Flatlander @Animal @Paradigm
> 
> Can you take a look at my last typing thread?


Busy until Monday, but I'll try to get to it sooner


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## DomNapoleon

Animal said:


> I will get to it asap - Link?
> I'm a bit behind on typings here, so it might not be right away but if you link it i'll subscribe.


the link: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/180051-phoenix-rebirth-thread.html

and ps: I find you a good typer


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## Animal

Mandraque said:


> the link: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/180051-phoenix-rebirth-thread.html
> 
> and ps: I find you a good typer


Thanks 

I'm not sure how good I am at typing people from threads, but if I percolate on it a bit, I can usually at least exclude some things or figure out some nuances. I try not to 'force-type' someone, meaning, if the picture isn't hanging together I don't try to push a type. I used to do that, try to pick someone apart til a conclusion was reached, and it would end up being faulty. I guess why i'm typing more effectively lately is that I take more time and trust my intuition to come together eventually, instead of nitpicking.. which I'm horrible at.. my Ti shadow is horrendous. Sometimes if there's a Ti dom on the thread doing that for me, it goes better.


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## Flatlander

Mandraque said:


> @_Flatlander_ @_Animal_ @_Paradigm_
> 
> Can you take a look at my last typing thread?


Mention me on it in a couple days and I'll take a look.


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## Dalton

Since I'm now typing differently according to Jung-based theories, I'd like to have a discussion of whether others see me as 1w9.


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## Animal

Dalton said:


> Since I'm now typing differently according to Jung-based theories, I'd like to have a discussion of whether others see me as 1w9.


Why are you typing differently? 
Which other types are you considering?


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## Swordsman of Mana

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Throwing myself in here in case anyone has any suggestions for type. ^.^


I liked you as Sexual 6.


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## TheProphetLaLa

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I liked you as Sexual 6.


You think so? Thats still my main type as of now. Do you think a social 6 is possible? I'm currently debating on sx/so and so/sx.


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## Entropic

Dalton said:


> Since I'm now typing differently according to Jung-based theories, I'd like to have a discussion of whether others see me as 1w9.


You know I think 6 is more likely than 1.


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## Dalton

Animal said:


> Why are you typing differently?
> Which other types are you considering?


I've come to understand the cognitive functions differently.

I'm considering 6 and 9w1, in addition to my usual 1w9. Lots of self-doubt. Social last.
@Entropic I know you know I know.


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## Purrfessor

Dalton said:


> Since I'm now typing differently according to Jung-based theories, I'd like to have a discussion of whether others see me as 1w9.


This be the internet. Gut types be hardest to pinpoint here.  I'll just say this: 1s and 8s are similar in the sense that they choose action over inaction. A 9 would stop action to better think how to do an action. Since 1 is called "perfectionist" and my actions were calculated beforehand I naturally assumed I was a 1. But the difference is that I would take inaction over action in pursuit of my righteousness. All 3 gut types handle righteousness in their own way. 1 gives their body. 8 shares their body. 9 controls their body. 9 receives their body as their own.


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## Kintsugi

Dalton said:


> I've come to understand the cognitive functions differently.
> 
> I'm considering 6 and 9w1, in addition to my usual 1w9. Lots of self-doubt. Social last.


I don't think you're 1 anymore. Far too squishy. ^_^ :3

Seriously...I don't know. But I do think 9 and 6 are possibilities that could be explored.


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## Figure

Dalton said:


> Since I'm now typing differently according to Jung-based theories, I'd like to have a discussion of whether others see me as 1w9.


Personal take (rambling included): 

I'm not sold on Sx 1 for you. It's not 1 by itself or Sx by itself, it's 1 and Sx together that I have trouble spotting. I can't remember a specific time I've ever seen you show it off on-forum. There is definitely a charge to One to One type 1's that they can't really do a lot to contain (although they do try). There's a sense, regardless of Jung type, of this is the way it is, and it just has to be, as it relates to individuals. It's not just being picky about mates, it's full blown intensity (and the type's passion) directed that way. 

Obviously, there are a couple issues - 1.) my unsolicited input saying "haven't seen it" assumes I know wth I'm talking about, and maybe I don't or my concept of a Sx 1 is incomplete; then also, 2.) we're on a forum so someone can lose a lot of their real persona via medium. If you'd ever like to discuss in real time, I'd love to speak with you as I enjoy reading your posts. 

It's interesting that you're re-considering your type as the result of typing differently in another theory. I have not done this personally, but can say that every time I've gone back since typing as I do now, no alternative ever trumps this sense, I suppose instinctive, that knows I assume things very strongly without thinking about them. A 1 may think about things post-facto - but no matter what I do, I cannot itch the habit of just knowing and operating from that assumption without doing a whole lot to it. And this is _not _a habit of type 6. 

Are you able to trace these kinds of assumptions in your mental process? Can you identify times when you have a conviction on something that has little connection to anything informational or interpersonal?


----------



## Dalton

Figure said:


> I'm not sold on Sx 1 for you. It's not 1 by itself or Sx by itself, it's 1 and Sx together that I have trouble spotting. I can't remember a specific time I've ever seen you show it off on-forum. There is definitely a charge to One to One type 1's that they can't really do a lot to contain (although they do try). There's a sense, regardless of Jung type, of this is the way it is, and it just has to be, as it relates to individuals. It's not just being picky about mates, it's full blown intensity (and the type's passion) directed that way.


I'm extremely picky with everything, tbh. But as for intensity, I experience myself with intensity. I experience maelstroms in my mind a lot of the time, or at least I recognize them. I'm not very aware of how I might be externally intense, except for when I discuss the internal (e.g. feelings).



> Obviously, there are a couple issues - 1.) my unsolicited input saying "haven't seen it" assumes I know wth I'm talking about, and maybe I don't or my concept of a Sx 1 is incomplete; then also, 2.) we're on a forum so someone can lose a lot of their real persona via medium. If you'd ever like to discuss in real time, I'd love to speak with you as I enjoy reading your posts.


No, it's entirely solicited. I'd be glad to do a video call if that's what you're suggesting.



> It's interesting that you're re-considering your type as the result of typing differently in another theory.


When I realize that I'm not as well-versed in one theory as I thought I was, I consider that I might have a similar problem with another theory.



> A 1 may think about things post-facto - but no matter what I do, I cannot itch the habit of just knowing and operating from that assumption without doing a whole lot to it. And this is _not _a habit of type 6.
> 
> Are you able to trace these kinds of assumptions in your mental process? Can you identify times when you have a conviction on something that has little connection to anything informational or interpersonal?


I do make assumptions, but I don't like to admit that I do, because I pride myself in "being logical". I usually question my assumptions if there's any opposition to them. Otherwise, they are likely to slip under the radar. I guess I just don't see them as "assumptions" (since that's a dirty word to me), but rather unspoken truths? The main problem with what I'm saying is that I can't concretize this by giving an example. I just sense a general idea that this kind of thing occurs regularly but without self-awareness.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Eh, I can't get a hold of this system at all. Whatever type I relate to depends on my mood and I sense that I'm rather different offline from how I am online. At least I know for sure I'm INFJ. 

Anyone seeing something I'm not?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Aha said:


> Improvised writing. I might forget some crucial points, but I am interested to systemize it myself
> 1. Do not kill those who do not deserve it
> 2. Do not severely damage those who do not deserve it
> 3. Do not lie (except in extra-extreme situations)
> 4. Keep your word whatever the cost (except in extra-extreme situations when it infringes other rules)
> 5. Do not steal girls. Do not rape without consent, etc. Do not hit girls except when they are attacking me
> 6. Do not betray in any way (trust, relationship, etc.)
> 7. Be an example for everyone
> 8. Avenge those who hurt my friends and people who cannot stand for themselves. Bring justice _(although it is very subjective)_
> 9. Do not kill yourself (don't smoke/drug/drink/unsafesex etc.)
> 10. Smile
> I can think of something else but those are basics
> My super-ego is rather funny. I don't deal with right and wrong at all. All is accepted if it does not infringe the clauses mentioned above


interesting, I don't know if I'd call it an "Honor Code", but I certainly have a set of principles by which I live my life.
in no particular order
1) Respect people's rights to freedom and leave them alone as long as they mind their own business.
2) Love yourself unconditionally. You do not need an excuse to think you are awesome. 
3) Defend your rights and your property by any means necessary.
4) Always stick up for children who are being mistreated.
5) Don't kill people unless they deserve it (I liked that one! :tongue
6) Attempt to be reasonable with people before resorting to force. Only use force when someone is being coercive (including passive-aggressively), threatening or physically aggressive (with either yourself or a loved one) or trying to take something which belongs to you. but if it comes to that, beat their ass.
7) Morality is not relevant when immediate survival is on the line. ex: if you are on the sinking Titanic, and need to toss children into the ocean to get onto a live boat, it's you or them. choose you.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 7) Morality is not relevant when immediate survival is on the line. ex: if you are on the sinking Titanic, and need to toss children into the ocean to get onto a live boat, it's you or them. choose you.


I don't even like kids that much but I'd sooner freeze to death. >_>


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

The Scorched Earth said:


> I don't even like kids that much but I'd sooner freeze to death. >_>


that's why you would be an martyr while I survive. ordinarily, I love children, and would do practically anything to help a defenseless child, but I refuse to die for my sentiments, no matter how "noble".


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Dalton said:


> I've come to understand the cognitive functions differently.
> 
> I'm considering 6 and 9w1, in addition to my usual 1w9. Lots of self-doubt. Social last.
> @_Entropic_ I know you know I know.


I can't really see 9 based on the little I know of your history. You seem very willing to take on huge undertakings, battle people, etc. I _could_ see 6, but having read about how you left religion I'd say the choice you made then was 1ish. Principles over security. _However_, 6s are, like all enneagram types, capable of overcoming their core fear, so...


----------



## Modal Soul

Privileged said:


> I can't really see 9 based on the little I know of your history. You seem very willing to take on huge undertakings, battle people, etc. I _could_ see 6, but having read about how you left religion I'd say the choice you made then was 1ish. Principles over security. _However_, 6s are, like all enneagram types, capable of overcoming their core fear, so...


in short, dalton, you are untypeable


----------



## Hollow Man

Am I a 6 or a 9? I have to be one of the two...if you'd like examples of my character/personality, I can refer you to a video...or whatever you'd like to do or ask me, feel free here or PM wise....I have some other developmental difficulties as well and anxiety if that's relevant. So, I naturally feel inferior to normal people at times simply because of that. 9w1 seems closer than 9w8.


----------



## Modal Soul

Slogo said:


> Am I a 6 or a 9? I have to be one of the two...if you'd like examples of my character/personality, I can refer you to a video...or whatever you'd like to do or ask me, feel free here or PM wise....I have some other developmental difficulties as well and anxiety if that's relevant. So, I naturally feel inferior to normal people at times simply because of that. 9w1 seems closer than 9w8.


why not both? 69 ftw


----------



## Hollow Man

Modal Soul said:


> why not both? 69 ftw


Huh?! That's fine by me. *squirms away*


----------



## Modal Soul

Slogo said:


> Huh?! That's fine by me. *squirms away*


hahaha

*blares horn*

come on, y'all
help @_Slogo_ find his TRUE enneagram type


----------



## Dalton

Slogo said:


> Am I a 6 or a 9? I have to be one of the two...if you'd like examples of my character/personality, I can refer you to a video...or whatever you'd like to do or ask me, feel free here or PM wise....I have some other developmental difficulties as well and anxiety if that's relevant. So, I naturally feel inferior to normal people at times simply because of that. 9w1 seems closer than 9w8.


Well, my gut says 9 is more likely than 6 for you, yet I don't really know you.

How do you act under regular and abnormal stress?


----------



## Hollow Man

Dalton said:


> How do you act under regular and abnormal stress?


I feel nervous usually under stress, but I don't usually show it unless it's really intense and pressing. Sometimes I'll admit it if I am asked directly by a person...though sometimes I lie about it too. I am not too good at standing up for my rights or when I feel stepped on. It can take awhile for me to speak up in a vocal way. But, I usually want to, or I wonder if I could even convince them of my stress. Would it be a waste to complain?

I don't respond well to negative reinforcement without good external reasoning and explanation from the person criticizing. But, I guess, who does? Usually I'll try to avoid a person who does this to me, or I won't look forward to being with the person if I have to be with them. I'll be more passive-aggressive than anything else unless....somehow we can naturally find some kind of respect for each other...which can happen. 

Thanks for the response!


----------



## Dalton

Slogo said:


> I feel nervous usually under stress, but I *don't usually show it* unless it's really intense and pressing. Sometimes I'll admit it if I am asked directly by a person...though *sometimes I lie about it too*. I am *not too good at standing up for my rights or when I feel stepped on*. It can take awhile for me to speak up in a vocal way. But, I usually want to, or *I wonder if I could even convince them of my stress. Would it be a waste to complain?*


Can't say the same of the following paragraph, but this first paragraph is very 9-ish, denying one's negative emotional states, feeling incapable of standing for one's own rights, and finally, you're even aware that your habitual lack of expression (which is another feature of 9) would prevent you from convincing people of your actual internal state.


----------



## DomNapoleon

*Reasons why I think I am a 7w6*

-First of all, I see my inner world as a depressive, numb and dull scenario. That's why I try to avoid it, by distracting myself with things such as movies, chatting, books, listening to music, etc;
-I use rationalization quite a lot. When something about health happens to me I immediately think ''Oh this is not serious, I don't need to go to the doctor''. So this mechanism of defense allows me to get inside of my own mind. 
-I hardly can see the problems in multiple situations. It's very hard for me to detect the problem since I am so positive outlook oriented. 
-I have a smooth relationship with authority. I know this goes against what I told, but at the time I was just trying to be a Badass since I was fascinated by type 6. The truth is I see authority as something essential to order, but still I am too independent to be closed up to one. 
-I am a very ID person oriented. Once I have a goal I do everything to achieve it, without taking in considerations morals or ethics. I love mountains and seas with my thinking process to achieve that goal. One problem of mine is that I deal with a lot with lack of patience. 
-Once I said a pm to @_kaleidoscope_ (even when I typed as 6) claiming I barely feel any guilt. I just don't see the point of feeling guilt. What's done is done. 
-I barely feel any kind of anxiety. (when I am on meds, since I have an anxiety disturb). There are few things that let me anxious, but it's not to much. 
-I don't see the world as a dangerous place. In fact I used to due to traumatic even (won't share it) but since it's PSTD it's not type related. Now that I am healed I see the world as a big opportunity to grow and expand, an exciting place.
-I am also a very optimistic person. Nothing lets me down. I am forever an idealistic. 
-I am idealistic and always craving for a better future. I feel dissatisfied with the present moment, so I just try to fill in the environment with new and exciting possibilities. 
-I trust too easily on people. I am very naive and I do put all my trust into certain people, sometimes I regret it. 
-I am assertive by nature. I have a strong connection to 1. I feel the need to protect those who can't protect themselves and plus, I can be self-righteous, self-entitled and out of control. 
-I have a very narcissistic personality. I have big amounts of confidence (except when I was on depression but pills made this better) and I am up to any challenge. 
-I have zero shame levels. Some people would claim I am a shameless person (in social situations).

Ok, that's it. @_Naqsh_ @_Swordsman of Mana_ @_Paradigm_ @_Animal_ what do you think of this?


----------



## Praesepe

I am sure of my type (5) but not of my wing (4 or 6). So confused...


----------



## Golden Rose

:blushed::blushed::blushed:












Animal said:


> I'm going to use this post of yours to explain some of the things I saw. I'm not sure I can hit on all of the points because some were made on Skype chat.


You have my permission to use stuff and direct quotes from our Skype chat, I actually thought you would because I don't have any qualms sharing our brainstorming especially if it's gonna help in the long run and punch my confusion! <3



> I'm willing to be wrong about my current assessments, but my current assessment is 7w6 and ENFP. I'm looking forward to getting to know you more. If anything else should arise, I'm willing to be wrong because this is a new typing even in my own mind. I was convinced otherwise before. But it just came up so naturally in the conversation that I wanted to write this post since I feel like you really could be correctly typed this time.  I am hoping to get to know you more and be on this journey with you to see if anything else comes up. But right now, I'm seeing eye to eye with you very much.


Understood! I'm not the kind of person who can claim to be 100% sure of something because the combinations and possibilities are, if not endless, many enough to smash my mind into crushed candy (still stuck in that one level ) especially since definitions are clear and finite enough to hold the same meaning to everyone but the way the get applied to a specific individual are more personal and fluid... especially if said individual is a flakey mcsnowflake! I just enjoy our journey and whatever will come out of it.



> To start here - your typing process has always been about exploring possibilities. I used to think it was one of those Ni things - that you were so sure of one thing and then had a shift of perspective. But now I realize you were just keeping a lot of options open all the time and you were only being stubborn (or seeming to) on the website because you didn't want to deal with too many questions while going through a sensitive typing process.


This is something that I was never able to get across XD it's not that I'm stubbornly focused on something, on the contrary I change my mind quite often and often keep asking and searching because I'd rather wait and consider everything. But I'm also about that trial and error way of life, I'll switch my tiny soup label and try that kind of cognitive dress on to see if it fits but once I realize it doesn't and it feels uncomfortable... yep discarded. For example, I've gave more than a single shot to Fe, I grew up with unhealthy and healthy Fe people and it's tiring as hell, it's draining and during that short window of time I went as ENFJ or 2... I gave plenty of terrible advice, felt disgusted and like I was betraying my essence and ended up digging out all of my angstiest, "selfish" and conflictual memories. I had to run the fuck away from people and just talk only to my then sx partner and seek freedom, mental escape and individualism as much as possible. It wasn't a choice forced onto me by anyone but even when I thought that was my way (and you facepalmed at my reasons, yep dumbassery for sale!) I clung onto SoM's definition of badass vixen rebels and not people pleasers because ew.

I might not be as technical as I want to be when put on the spot, I thought about my answer before this and wish I could expand on that because there's seriously so much coming into mind and more, but yes. It's not that I'm closed off to exploration, I thrive on that and new options! But I don't like to be pushed against a wall (unless it's sexy time!) and told me I'm something I don't see and prove myself because what's the point? I'm not here to convince anyone so I don't want any opinion shoved down my throat, I ain't gagging on that.



> I know you've been open about your types because any time I've talked to you, you've been willing to explore possibilities, even the difficult ones. Of course, any type can be open minded about typing process - Ni or Ne. But for whatever it is or isn't worth, I have noticed that you're a lot more open to possibilities than you might seem when someone doesn't know you as well.


I just got joke typed (?) as ENTJ and I'm like, dude I wish! Strong Te is sexy as fuck but I don't have any trace of Ni's one-track-focus and conciseness (@Leocat even told me 'bout that, I'm multidirectional not concise for shit lol) and I just like being a free spirit and myself. Of course I could be anything but it's just theoretical and what my heart ends up knowing it's right after studying, researching and... not making much of a fuss? If types were customizable I'd go with CAGE NwC and to hell with it  but I love learning, I love discovering, I admire those who got it all figured out immediately but that ain't me.



> New stuff coming in every direction is a Ne thing.. it's why people say that Ne doms keep editing and re-editing their posts ad nauseum. Of course this isnt true for every Ne dom but I have noticed it with some Ne users.


Is that a Ne thing? I think some can attest that I edit my posts a thousand times, actually I'm not satisfied if I don't do it at least 3 times because I have an answer already ready and organized in mind and then a thousand new ideas start pummeling me from all sides. 



> I envy this. I can't do that many things at once. People might think I 'procrastinate" but its not that - it's that I can't do more than one thing at a time and I don't have enough time to do that many things. I see this kind of multi-tasking in Ne types (of which I am one) but also in 6s and 7s more. Not sure if it is relevant for enneagram though.


Dunno how actually good at multitasking I am but it relaxes and engages me, I have 30-50 tabs open on average (lots of them from PerC because I forget to close them or I might need them in 500 years) and even when I'm doing just one thing, my mind is not quiet. I get asked "are you paying attention?" or "are you there?" a lot because I really do mind travel plenty on top of not being particularly expressive (goofiness =/= actual deep emotions) and having sort of a dopey face.



> Contrary to popular opinion, 7s can have low self esteem. They are usually very aware of this too, when they have it. But 7s motto is "I'm okay." So you can rationalize that it's ok, whatever you are is ok.


This came out strongly on skype, I drive everyone bonkers because I _have_ to repeat myself that it's ok, I'm ok, it's no big deal, I can do this, tomorrow I'll wake up new, it's in the past. I need to know that my emotions will never take advantage of me and trap me, that I'll never be unable to see past my own nose, that I'll always have a thousand escape routes. I'm like gum, you can chew it, spit it, break it, put it in your mouth again and pass it to your friend or stick me under a desk but my essence doesn't change. And it's ok! Objectively, the way I survived my hard life (and didn't acknowledge how shitty it was until adulthood and reading more about those issues) was just laughing at it and not making a huge fuss(long term in particular) out of any kind of pain.




> Things like this is why I see 9 fix. 9 and 9 fix.. contrary to popular belief they WILL remain firm on their thoughts and WILL defend themselves when necessary, but will avoid pointless confrontations.


This is why I love tritype! I'm starting to wonder whether my 9 is stronger than my 4.
This is also why I can't relate to, say, a 729,a 748 or a 741... entirely different magical beasts!



> This sounds very head type (and not 5 or 6w5 who are more measured.)


To expand on head type >>> image type and Fi >>>> Fe, I'll use the data we discussed on Skype.

Image types are smooth as fuck, Fe are master chameleons concerning visual and moral mirroring of their surroundings and I'm neither of these things. First of all, most of my changes are motivated by personal ideas and experimentation rather than mimicking a group (and I'm soc last too!) or following the waves. Hell, the fact that I changed types and names with a minor frequency than most yet I come across as this multiple-identities-schizotypal-confused-chameleon is telling because that's actually the point! It's awkward, it's always hard to believe or digest, it only makes sense in retrospect and if you know me and it's extremely in yo face and against all odds. 

I had an ENFJ 2 or 3 classmate and she was valedictorian, a popular preppy girl, slightly leftist and a bit of a hippie stoner according to the crowd and... it was believable as hell and charming and lovable. I could tell she was genuine in her absorbing whoever was in front of her, she was sweet but craved that kind of attention and praise. Meanwhile I was the one who was super into her ideals even if they switched according to new things I discovered and thought of and while I was me everywhere, I got lots of shit about it because of how "too much" and "flakey" "confusing" I am. But I've always been me, multifaceted as I am and I've always laughed everything off, the comic relief in a way even when I'm just obnoxious instead of funny. I can't complete anything. I don't care about being believed rather having the freedom of expressing who I am and my ideas without being crucified for that.



> Billy Joel is a 7w6 IMO. I also think he's bipolar however, and I acknowledge that makes it hard to type someone.
> I won't attempt to type Bon Jovi - thats the only song of his I know.


I've always loved this song of his :kitteh: as anti gender roles as I am, that's not it.








> It struck me that you used the word "limits." I would have said, "I'm the first to acknowledge my flaws." This sort of language is where I started seeing 7 > 4.


I acknowledge my flaws, I don't mind them, I mock them. I'm the one cracking a joke to friends like "hold on, I need to go puke my guts out" it's an actual truth but in a shrug-it-off way, if that makes sense. Limits are something I have but wish I didn't, at times it hurts to know that I'll never be able to do 1/12 of all the things I could and wish to do. But I can live a thousand lives and fantasies in my head so I'll sleep on that and be happy anyway.




> Again, that 7ish rationalization. "I don't mind admitting I was wrong, it means I'm moving forward." It's like how 7s will rationalize a breakup as a good thing, as they learned from it. (Or any other rationalization.) 6s or 4s might be more likely to mull over where they were wrong and bash their head. The problem for 7s is it can come to bite them in the ass later when they don't internalize their mistakes and then make the same ones over and over.


Remember my hair tale? I'm like that in a lot of things, even important ones. I've joined and dropped majors at least 5 times, I've dropped and picked up again hobbies, schools, friends, websites, interests, bad habits, lovers, foods, styles, ways of destruction. I don't even realize it! Every time it's like "oh this time it'll be great" or "fifth time's the charm" or "ok, now it's getting really ironic" but... I don't mind. I grow from mistakes, sometimes rebounds work amazingly, others they don't but at least I followed my heart and will and didn't compromise my morals. Because even if I waste myself, that was in line with what I valued at the time.



> (This is sort of what I see in your typing process. Like grabbing the next type and next and next but feeling like you learned from each one. Which by the way, I don't disagree with. I learned from my mistypes too. But I also beat myself up a lot for each one. Each re-typing for me involved a lot of crying and obsessing behind the scenes. And I distanced or even retired from perc for a period each time because I felt too raw with each one.)


I wasn't nearly this intense about it, I can tell your pain was real and I wish you didn't have to go through all that but look where are you now! You did it your way so there's nothing to regret although if you feel like beating up yourself about it, go for it! That's your own way to deal with it and no one knows better than you do. 

But yeah. No crying just shrugging, maybe feeling awful or anxious because I knew everything I was gonna say would be questioned or side eyed but honestly zero fucks were given unless something big was happening, then even that stopped mattering. If anything, I get more and more excited every time! "Oh boy! A new thing to try out hell yes, lemme grab my heart shaped sunglasses" <--that I don't have but i have sxy ray ban shades and slightly less sexy ray ban rip offs for "battle"




> This is something 7s don't do according to the texts (stew in feelings) yet I see a lot of emotional 7s being depressed on the forum, as well as IRL.  This seems to be specifically an SX-first 7 thing. It's about the negative emotions being another thing that keeps them from boredom. I remember a 7 on another forum wrote "Even my pain is running away from my pain." I don't know if you relate to that or not? But I'm not so quick to write off type 7 for reasons like this.


In our talk, it clearly emerged we have a very different version of stewing. I need to sort out my emotions on my own and I'm uncomfortable or annoyed about talking them out with someone, another super un-Fe point, but also I love processing them my own way. My infamous music breaks for when things become too much and i need to be alone and recharge and breathe the beat in while daydreaming, I mentally escape to a thousand places while forming words and answers and ideas. I forget about my own body or anything around me, I'm free! Or even moping in bed forever or being forced to reflect on the past and using comforting rituals, as well as a touch of paranoia/anxiety but... the thing is I don't let it happen for too long. I need control over those, I need a quick fix asap, i hate feeling vulnerable and i start mentally fixing everything (unhealthy 1 disintegration?).

Hell, i remember being borderline suicidal and yet becoming slightly manic after storming out my feelings, regaining inner peace and distracting my mind as much as I could. I've always thought I was hella weird because things take a long ass time to hit me, I'm stuck into that "nah, it's gonna be alright soon" and when it doesn't it breaks me and makes me feel like a cockroach but not completely? Hell, I remember the trigger to get me out of a depressive spell was being suggested to marry and divorce someone for aussie/kiwi/british citizenship, it made zero sense and was impractical but my mind was already thinking of me as some kind of adventurer, ex spy bride on the run, lana del rey-esque scenarios and... what finally helped me realized about me moving back to Austria and be free (among other things). My brainstorming, it's deadly once I can fact check stuff on the side and I have strong feelings about those.




> Yeah.. this really reeks of head type as well as Ne-Fi. *If you value something (Fi) you can focus all that wild energy maybe*? But mostly it says head type. Because all that "web of brainstorming, MENTAL farts.." it just sounds too mentally focused to be a heart core. It's more in the way you WORD it than in the quality of the actual thing that makes me think its coming from head. Because of course, anyone can think too much or whatever.


*Yes*. if I drop something, it's because it loses its meaning or never truly had one but I was capable of amazing and intense achievements in a short amount of time, if I value something or someone, I'm terrifying. Fierce as hell, loyal as hell. But it takes me forever to realize it and I also want to keep my options open, reasonably so. Integration to 5, learning to settle down with that knowledge and hoard it instead of throwing it all over the place? More monogamous views towards relationships and ideas and 'purposes'?



> You say you're pessimistic and negative, but your description comes from a place of feeling like you can do anything you put your mind to. A lot of 6w7s will claim they are eternally optimistic, while coming from a more second-guessing place inside themselves. So it's almost counter-intuitive. But I do see 7w6 > 6w7. It's more like.. the core is so pervasive you don't notice its there. So 6w7 will say I'm OPTIMISTIC becasue this is something they push themselves into. Whereas 7w6 will say IM PESSIMISTIC because when that happens they really notice it.


I have a tattoo that says "impossible is nothing" :laughing: of course I can't buy a house on the moon or be the president of the USA (not that I want to be... brrrrrr) but still, who knows? I can at least try to come up with ways to get as close as possible to unattainable dreams. I can create satisfying enough patterns out of it, tie all of those ideas together so that I can jump here and there in a truer way that makes sense. But I hate claiming that I am OPTIMISTIC because I hate those "awww smile" or "it's nothing" people, like I can tell myself it's gonna be ok but bitch don't tell me to keep a positive mindset when I'm depressed. I'm free to hate everything as much as I want. It doesn't even last long anyway, I just don't want to be told what to do. No one has that kind of authority, not even the ones closest to you, it's all a matter of letting the person feel free to feel the way they want to feel.



> I've heard the ENFP is the introverted extrovert. Perhaps this is what they mean by that.


I'm a double withdrawn, I'll never be a social networker or a socialite, the idea itself grosses me out. I can be the life of the party and love it... occasionally and when I feel like being that but I need lots and lots of time off and alone doing my own thing without any interfering or interaction. I can be real quiet and at times lazy as fuck, closed off and even my partner is way too much! I need constant mental stimulation but I'm not interested in the external world, I don't need floods of people, I smell out someone who I sense could be compatible with me or is just interesting and makes me curious and eventually latch onto them and explore dat sxness, keeping track of giant groups is something that gives me a headache and I don't care about.

If anything is when I get tryhardy and my Ne = 13 years old scene girl rawr dinosaur or I just shut up and avoid everyone because it's draining and annoying, if a group is just not for me I'll shrug it off, not really showing myself to the fullest and just drop it. I like connections, I like fun, I like genuineness and imagination, I like getting to know individuals first. Small talk, networking, gossip and social dynamics are boring and draining. I love my interpersonal relationships to be intense, meaningful and true.



> This is 7 to the bone. Fear of being trapped or deprived of their dreams.. and 7s don't want to miss out on their life.


Type 7 Enneagram Type Description |9types.com


 Give me companionship, affection, and freedom.
 Engage with me in stimulating conversation and laughter.
 Appreciate my grand visions and listen to my stories.
 *Don't try to change my style. Accept me the way I am*.
 Be responsible for yourself. I dislike clingy or needy people.
 *Don't tell me what to do*.

YES to all the above but the bolded are what I mistook for 4 or Fi-dominance.




> This is very Sx.


I'm sx/sx/sx we already went through this :crazy:
But really sx/sp = my throat is burning and my liver hates me but I'll still do my bad habits while worrying about my health and wanting to punch myself, just to shrug it off. "Oh whatever, I'll gent better eventually". Repeat on a daily basis!



> Definitely a head type. Other types can be dreamy but it's the wording. My mind is building/ playing with/ etc. Things i want & doing next.. very 7 planning fixation. They say in the texts that *some 7s will plan the next thing while doing the current thing so they never end up enjoying the actual thing*.


Yes! Friends can testofy that as soon as I come up with something, I lose all interest for what I'm doing and I even end up winging it or not liking it at all "why are we still playing CAH? Let's go play mafia and have a call instead!" "I'm so done with listening to this song I like, I want to go for a walk now, what if I started a band? GDI my life is boring. Oh! I could open a thread about charades!"



> Doze off easily/kind of spacey feels 9ish (fix).


Maybe 9 is my first fix! That'd explain the fickleness and the passiveness with a strong hidden temper. 
Also my super chillness man! #blazeit



> Kind of 7ish in the "I'm okay," "It's ok" yet having strong opinions.


"Don't push my buttons, it's ok, we can disagree. Don't make me charge my laser gun"



> Not sure if I can type this but with a gun to my head I would call it Fi.


The lasergun from above? Spitfire! :kitteh:




> Sounds like a 7w6 ;p and an ENFP to boot.


<3



> I agree wholeheartedly.
> Fi types FWIW are said to be very insistent upon having freedom to express themselves.


I'm of the mindset that everyone can do whatever they want, just don't restrict my freedom in the process and don't hurt anyone, especially someone I care about. Otherwise? I'm not quick to judge. I might think an opinion is disgusting but they have a right to have it, just like i have a right to rip it if it clashes with my core values. Then again, using facts filtered through the way i feel but if they don't change their views I don't really care, as long as I can voice my point and state my opinion. But it's more of a debate thing, I don't go out of my way to discuss things unless they hit me in my core but I might be one of those vocal -something- because I'm really passionate about my views. But I'm easygoing.



> Not sure if this is type related. Texts would say its Ne and 7. Personally I know I'm Ne and 7 fixed and I don't like trying new things. I'm quite attached to the things I already love and I've been the same since I was a child, fixed on the same goals and creative expressions. I know another Ne dom who is like this too. But neither of us are 7s.


I have my favorites and they're my security blankets but I also leave in the world of endless possibilities and speculation and just getting inspired by things so I'm not saying that I'd try a random new food or sky diving out of the blue, rather I'm more inclined of adding new spices to the processes and information I already have and if I feel like something is right, I can be reckless my own way. Which is probably not very but I'm still blissfully unaware of "how fast" is acting fast, I'll do it when my ideas are baked and ready to eat so I can follow through.



> How cute.  Can I dance on your feet?


YES :blushed:



> ^_^ 9w8 fix


[9w8 >>> 4w5 intensifies]




> Exactly. This is why I am saying - I feel this way NOW but I am willing to be wrong and looking forward to knowing more about you.  I can't stand that either - people who just think they know when they have not seen what happens "automatically" when you're not talking about type. Truthfully, I can say all kinds of things about myself, but who my true self is will show in moments of stress. This is when my friends will say "Oh, you are DEFINITELY X type/ fix." It just comes out. This is why I decided to write this post. You were typed at 4 and saying some very 7ish things. But I hope you know I am not being insistent. I will never be one of those people. I just think you're right and want to throw my support behind your current typing. I think it's for good reason. If more comes out I can't wait to explore it with you. And I hope anyone else who has been alongside you for your typing journey can understand that you are going through a really hard time and looking for answers, and this is why you have flipped between a few types rapidly. I understand it because my typing journey was made messy by my traumas. I didn't flip as rapidly but I was not seeing it clearly and people were assuming I was "acting like X type" when really I was exploring these very real traits inside myself. I just see too much of my own typing blunders in your journey, even if our methods and personalities are very different in some ways. Some people just don't know what true suffering and trauma is like. Trauma literally rewrites your brain - it's been shown in studies that it changes the very brain waves. Thats why I guess I understand you. <3 But I hope you are finding some more answers now.


You're not being insistent at all and I love how free flowing and natural our conversations are, you're one of the most genuine people I know and I don't throw this kind of compliment around lightly. But you make me at ease and i can't just help spilling all the beans over your ricey understanding  we always brainstorm, bleed and laugh on two separate yet similar tracks and i love it. Asking someone to describe the way they use a function in detail, getting stuck on semantics ("you used the word idea out of place! Not Ne!" or "type 3s use the words competent, brilliant, efficient and power more than average"), not wanting to understand and getting stuck on a memory or using hurt feelings ("I hate you so you're an ENFJ/ESFJ/ESFP/INFP because I hate you and that type too, we clearly musyt be conflictors") is just wrong imho because... where's the logic and the objectivity in that? Anyone can pull up a definition from a book and feel smart but truly understanding something means being able to express it simply, to detect that specific pattern in a giant brick of text like this.

Also it's discouraging how many people unsolicitedly label people as mistyped, even if it were true who gives a shit? You can tell them and they can choose to acknowledge it or not but that's where it ends, typology is a tool for self growth not something to revolve your identity around. Two people of the same type can be different, that's called being human and having had different experiences, as well as personal development. Sure, it sucks when someone refuses to learn or listen to you but it wasn't your business to begin with, it's a personal self discovery journey and a type isn't an army of clones.

/rant over, let's have another beer



> 7 and 9 and Fi.. and maybe a splash of 4


. 
794?



> "I'm smarter than I seem." Hehee. Love the confidence.


I'm not overly arrogant but damn if I don't hate looking dumb or incompetent! It's not my main focus in life and I know I have my limits and there's a lot I don't know but I'm often dismissed as silly, comic relief, fluffy, spacey or terrible at logic when I can actually bbq someone's ass if I actually snap into serious logical mode and use my insight. I guess I'm akin to those stoned partiers who will drop amazing knowledge mcnuggets that will blow you away with their infinite potential right before going back to make out with a shoe!




> :crazy:


It took me 2 hours to type and edit this? :shocked:
I definitely need songs, a cig and to kill off my liver for good! Drink it up

Thanks <333 worth waiting for
@LassieHearts @Chesire Tower because they were curious about this


----------



## Golden Rose

*Part One*

Since you can't post more than 4 songs for post and I already have a hard time finding a limited number that actually apply (like I told you, I can get lost in a song regardless of what it's about and build imaginary sandcastles). I can try!

I usually listen to grunge/punk/riot grrrl/industrial stuff but I'm going eclectic and easy going for this one:

This one is the song I wanted to start the new year with, it's raw, real and amazing.
One of my favorite songs of all time.


* *












This one is another of my favorites, I can relate and to me it's like melted fudge in my ears cream.


* *












This song describes my life in the most recent years.


* *












Another song that I can see myself in


* *


----------



## Chesire Tower

Hotes McGoats said:


> Also it's discouraging how many people unsolicitedly label people as mistyped, even if it were true who gives a shit? You can tell them and they can choose to acknowledge it or not but that's where it ends, typology is a tool for self growth not something to revolve your identity around. Two people of the same type can be different, that's called being human and having had different experiences, as well as personal development. Sure, it sucks when someone refuses to learn or listen to you but it wasn't your business to begin with, it's a personal self discovery journey and a type isn't an army of clones.


^
Totally Agree ^_^


----------



## Animal

Hotes McGoats said:


> Accidental double post so I'll use this one to post songs that speak to me.
> In a while tho... curse you ugly blue text of doom
> 
> ***PLACEHOLDER****


"She's always a woman to me" - that is my favorite Billy Joel song!!! I have learned how it feels too.  Apparently there is someone in the world who can tame even the beastliest of Animals. :kitteh:

YES I would agree with 9 fix second, I think. 

I'll answer the longer post soon <3 <3


----------



## Animal

To anyone else I said I would type:
I've been super busy and I will get to it as soon as I can. I haven't forgotten! I just wanted to write this up now because I had recently talked with @_Hotes McGoats_ and these thoughts were fresh in my head. I will try to get back to this thread at some point but I am currently working hard & pretty swamped.


----------



## Golden Rose

*Part Two*

More songs.

"I'm ok, it's ok"


* *












Some emoness that I held onto when I realized it was time for me to leave this place


* *












The Distillers again because they're perfect


* *









Lyrics:

I step right off the edge
Let the blood rush to my head
I'm going down to where the lucky ones have bled
I lift the veil up to reveal fascination
And if you crave it
Then you know that you are injured

And I'm holding on
And I'm holding on

For what you do to me
Baby there's no measure
I've taken everything
Now I want to give it
I left the lights on so you stumble in devotion
So easy
So easy
Its left unspoken

And I'm holding on
And I'm holding on
And I'm holding on
And I'm holding on

I've come to realize you're the only thing I want
I'm falling all the way
I'm falling all the way
I've come to realize you're the only thing I want
I'm fallen all the way in
I'm fallen all the way in
I'm fallen all the way in
I'm fallen
I'm fallen all the way in
I'm fallen all the way in
I've fallen all the way in
I've fallen all the way in
I've fallen all the way in
I've fallen all the way in




My kind of anger, it only comes in bursts. I usually don't really obsess about it or deny it even exists.
"It's not an argument, it just pisses me off. Do you think I can go blonde if I push it harder? :kitteh:"


* *


----------



## Golden Rose

*Part 3 (just one left i sware on me mum)*

I love this one because it's ironic and SX as fuck. I don't classify it as anger, it turns me on!
I love the imagery, I've used it a thousand times in my metaphors.


* *












What you called my frustrated song :tongue:


* *












I love this song, I even had in my signature for a while


* *












Kurt changed my life, this will always be my favorite one. His sarcastic contempt <3


* *


----------



## Golden Rose

*Sick! Final 4*

Motherfucking Tori, I love this one but Flying Dutchman is my #2


* *












I couldn't choose a single song for Emilie, I love them all. So I went for some delicious sarcasm, I'm a dirty feminazi after all :crazy:


* *












I can't choose a favorite for Lana either, this one is just fun though 
(special mention to Diet Mt Dew, Young and Beautiful, Shades of Cool and Kinda Outta Luck)


* *












I just love this one. This is my kind of fucked up love song!


* *











 @Animal I'm done! Hallelujah Hallelujah praise the Lorde


----------



## Alette

Hotes McGoats said:


> :blushed::blushed::blushed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have my permission to use stuff and direct quotes from our Skype chat, I actually thought you would because I don't have any qualms sharing our brainstorming especially if it's gonna help in the long run and punch my confusion! <3
> 
> 
> Understood! I'm not the kind of person who can claim to be 100% sure of something because the combinations and possibilities are, if not endless, many enough to smash my mind into crushed candy (still stuck in that one level ) especially since definitions are clear and finite enough to hold the same meaning to everyone but the way the get applied to a specific individual are more personal and fluid... especially if said individual is a flakey mcsnowflake! I just enjoy our journey and whatever will come out of it.
> 
> 
> This is something that I was never able to get across XD it's not that I'm stubbornly focused on something, on the contrary I change my mind quite often and often keep asking and searching because I'd rather wait and consider everything. But I'm also about that trial and error way of life, I'll switch my tiny soup label and try that kind of cognitive dress on to see if it fits but once I realize it doesn't and it feels uncomfortable... yep discarded. For example, I've gave more than a single shot to Fe, I grew up with unhealthy and healthy Fe people and it's tiring as hell, it's draining and during that short window of time I went as ENFJ or 2... I gave plenty of terrible advice, felt disgusted and like I was betraying my essence and ended up digging out all of my angstiest, "selfish" and conflictual memories. I had to run the fuck away from people and just talk only to my then sx partner and seek freedom, mental escape and individualism as much as possible. It wasn't a choice forced onto me by anyone but even when I thought that was my way (and you facepalmed at my reasons, yep dumbassery for sale!) I clung onto SoM's definition of badass vixen rebels and not people pleasers because ew.
> 
> I might not be as technical as I want to be when put on the spot, I thought about my answer before this and wish I could expand on that because there's seriously so much coming into mind and more, but yes. It's not that I'm closed off to exploration, I thrive on that and new options! But I don't like to be pushed against a wall (unless it's sexy time!) and told me I'm something I don't see and prove myself because what's the point? I'm not here to convince anyone so I don't want any opinion shoved down my throat, I ain't gagging on that.
> 
> 
> I just got joke typed (?) as ENTJ and I'm like, dude I wish! Strong Te is sexy as fuck but I don't have any trace of Ni's one-track-focus and conciseness (@Leocat even told me 'bout that, I'm multidirectional not concise for shit lol) and I just like being a free spirit and myself. Of course I could be anything but it's just theoretical and what my heart ends up knowing it's right after studying, researching and... not making much of a fuss? If types were customizable I'd go with CAGE NwC and to hell with it  but I love learning, I love discovering, I admire those who got it all figured out immediately but that ain't me.
> 
> 
> Is that a Ne thing? I think some can attest that I edit my posts a thousand times, actually I'm not satisfied if I don't do it at least 3 times because I have an answer already ready and organized in mind and then a thousand new ideas start pummeling me from all sides.
> 
> 
> Dunno how actually good at multitasking I am but it relaxes and engages me, I have 30-50 tabs open on average (lots of them from PerC because I forget to close them or I might need them in 500 years) and even when I'm doing just one thing, my mind is not quiet. I get asked "are you paying attention?" or "are you there?" a lot because I really do mind travel plenty on top of not being particularly expressive (goofiness =/= actual deep emotions) and having sort of a dopey face.
> 
> 
> This came out strongly on skype, I drive everyone bonkers because I _have_ to repeat myself that it's ok, I'm ok, it's no big deal, I can do this, tomorrow I'll wake up new, it's in the past. I need to know that my emotions will never take advantage of me and trap me, that I'll never be unable to see past my own nose, that I'll always have a thousand escape routes. I'm like gum, you can chew it, spit it, break it, put it in your mouth again and pass it to your friend or stick me under a desk but my essence doesn't change. And it's ok! Objectively, the way I survived my hard life (and didn't acknowledge how shitty it was until adulthood and reading more about those issues) was just laughing at it and not making a huge fuss(long term in particular) out of any kind of pain.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I love tritype! I'm starting to wonder whether my 9 is stronger than my 4.
> This is also why I can't relate to, say, a 729,a 748 or a 741... entirely different magical beasts!
> 
> 
> To expand on head type >>> image type and Fi >>>> Fe, I'll use the data we discussed on Skype.
> 
> Image types are smooth as fuck, Fe are master chameleons concerning visual and moral mirroring of their surroundings and I'm neither of these things. First of all, most of my changes are motivated by personal ideas and experimentation rather than mimicking a group (and I'm soc last too!) or following the waves. Hell, the fact that I changed types and names with a minor frequency than most yet I come across as this multiple-identities-schizotypal-confused-chameleon is telling because that's actually the point! It's awkward, it's always hard to believe or digest, it only makes sense in retrospect and if you know me and it's extremely in yo face and against all odds.
> 
> I had an ENFJ 2 or 3 classmate and she was valedictorian, a popular preppy girl, slightly leftist and a bit of a hippie stoner according to the crowd and... it was believable as hell and charming and lovable. I could tell she was genuine in her absorbing whoever was in front of her, she was sweet but craved that kind of attention and praise. Meanwhile I was the one who was super into her ideals even if they switched according to new things I discovered and thought of and while I was me everywhere, I got lots of shit about it because of how "too much" and "flakey" "confusing" I am. But I've always been me, multifaceted as I am and I've always laughed everything off, the comic relief in a way even when I'm just obnoxious instead of funny. I can't complete anything. I don't care about being believed rather having the freedom of expressing who I am and my ideas without being crucified for that.
> 
> 
> I've always loved this song of his :kitteh: as anti gender roles as I am, that's not it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I acknowledge my flaws, I don't mind them, I mock them. I'm the one cracking a joke to friends like "hold on, I need to go puke my guts out" it's an actual truth but in a shrug-it-off way, if that makes sense. Limits are something I have but wish I didn't, at times it hurts to know that I'll never be able to do 1/12 of all the things I could and wish to do. But I can live a thousand lives and fantasies in my head so I'll sleep on that and be happy anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember my hair tale? I'm like that in a lot of things, even important ones. I've joined and dropped majors at least 5 times, I've dropped and picked up again hobbies, schools, friends, websites, interests, bad habits, lovers, foods, styles, ways of destruction. I don't even realize it! Every time it's like "oh this time it'll be great" or "fifth time's the charm" or "ok, now it's getting really ironic" but... I don't mind. I grow from mistakes, sometimes rebounds work amazingly, others they don't but at least I followed my heart and will and didn't compromise my morals. Because even if I waste myself, that was in line with what I valued at the time.
> 
> 
> I wasn't nearly this intense about it, I can tell your pain was real and I wish you didn't have to go through all that but look where are you now! You did it your way so there's nothing to regret although if you feel like beating up yourself about it, go for it! That's your own way to deal with it and no one knows better than you do.
> 
> But yeah. No crying just shrugging, maybe feeling awful or anxious because I knew everything I was gonna say would be questioned or side eyed but honestly zero fucks were given unless something big was happening, then even that stopped mattering. If anything, I get more and more excited every time! "Oh boy! A new thing to try out hell yes, lemme grab my heart shaped sunglasses" <--that I don't have but i have sxy ray ban shades and slightly less sexy ray ban rip offs for "battle"
> 
> 
> 
> In our talk, it clearly emerged we have a very different version of stewing. I need to sort out my emotions on my own and I'm uncomfortable or annoyed about talking them out with someone, another super un-Fe point, but also I love processing them my own way. My infamous music breaks for when things become too much and i need to be alone and recharge and breathe the beat in while daydreaming, I mentally escape to a thousand places while forming words and answers and ideas. I forget about my own body or anything around me, I'm free! Or even moping in bed forever or being forced to reflect on the past and using comforting rituals, as well as a touch of paranoia/anxiety but... the thing is I don't let it happen for too long. I need control over those, I need a quick fix asap, i hate feeling vulnerable and i start mentally fixing everything (unhealthy 1 disintegration?).
> 
> Hell, i remember being borderline suicidal and yet becoming slightly manic after storming out my feelings, regaining inner peace and distracting my mind as much as I could. I've always thought I was hella weird because things take a long ass time to hit me, I'm stuck into that "nah, it's gonna be alright soon" and when it doesn't it breaks me and makes me feel like a cockroach but not completely? Hell, I remember the trigger to get me out of a depressive spell was being suggested to marry and divorce someone for aussie/kiwi/british citizenship, it made zero sense and was impractical but my mind was already thinking of me as some kind of adventurer, ex spy bride on the run, lana del rey-esque scenarios and... what finally helped me realized about me moving back to Austria and be free (among other things). My brainstorming, it's deadly once I can fact check stuff on the side and I have strong feelings about those.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes*. if I drop something, it's because it loses its meaning or never truly had one but I was capable of amazing and intense achievements in a short amount of time, if I value something or someone, I'm terrifying. Fierce as hell, loyal as hell. But it takes me forever to realize it and I also want to keep my options open, reasonably so. Integration to 5, learning to settle down with that knowledge and hoard it instead of throwing it all over the place? More monogamous views towards relationships and ideas and 'purposes'?
> 
> 
> I have a tattoo that says "impossible is nothing" :laughing: of course I can't buy a house on the moon or be the president of the USA (not that I want to be... brrrrrr) but still, who knows? I can at least try to come up with ways to get as close as possible to unattainable dreams. I can create satisfying enough patterns out of it, tie all of those ideas together so that I can jump here and there in a truer way that makes sense. But I hate claiming that I am OPTIMISTIC because I hate those "awww smile" or "it's nothing" people, like I can tell myself it's gonna be ok but bitch don't tell me to keep a positive mindset when I'm depressed. I'm free to hate everything as much as I want. It doesn't even last long anyway, I just don't want to be told what to do. No one has that kind of authority, not even the ones closest to you, it's all a matter of letting the person feel free to feel the way they want to feel.
> 
> 
> I'm a double withdrawn, I'll never be a social networker or a socialite, the idea itself grosses me out. I can be the life of the party and love it... occasionally and when I feel like being that but I need lots and lots of time off and alone doing my own thing without any interfering or interaction. I can be real quiet and at times lazy as fuck, closed off and even my partner is way too much! I need constant mental stimulation but I'm not interested in the external world, I don't need floods of people, I smell out someone who I sense could be compatible with me or is just interesting and makes me curious and eventually latch onto them and explore dat sxness, keeping track of giant groups is something that gives me a headache and I don't care about.
> 
> If anything is when I get tryhardy and my Ne = 13 years old scene girl rawr dinosaur or I just shut up and avoid everyone because it's draining and annoying, if a group is just not for me I'll shrug it off, not really showing myself to the fullest and just drop it. I like connections, I like fun, I like genuineness and imagination, I like getting to know individuals first. Small talk, networking, gossip and social dynamics are boring and draining. I love my interpersonal relationships to be intense, meaningful and true.
> 
> 
> Type 7 Enneagram Type Description |9types.com
> 
> 
> Give me companionship, affection, and freedom.
> Engage with me in stimulating conversation and laughter.
> Appreciate my grand visions and listen to my stories.
> *Don't try to change my style. Accept me the way I am*.
> Be responsible for yourself. I dislike clingy or needy people.
> *Don't tell me what to do*.
> 
> YES to all the above but the bolded are what I mistook for 4 or Fi-dominance.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sx/sx/sx we already went through this :crazy:
> But really sx/sp = my throat is burning and my liver hates me but I'll still do my bad habits while worrying about my health and wanting to punch myself, just to shrug it off. "Oh whatever, I'll gent better eventually". Repeat on a daily basis!
> 
> 
> Yes! Friends can testofy that as soon as I come up with something, I lose all interest for what I'm doing and I even end up winging it or not liking it at all "why are we still playing CAH? Let's go play mafia and have a call instead!" "I'm so done with listening to this song I like, I want to go for a walk now, what if I started a band? GDI my life is boring. Oh! I could open a thread about charades!"
> 
> 
> Maybe 9 is my first fix! That'd explain the fickleness and the passiveness with a strong hidden temper.
> Also my super chillness man! #blazeit
> 
> 
> "Don't push my buttons, it's ok, we can disagree. Don't make me charge my laser gun"
> 
> 
> The lasergun from above? Spitfire! :kitteh:
> 
> 
> 
> <3
> 
> 
> I'm of the mindset that everyone can do whatever they want, just don't restrict my freedom in the process and don't hurt anyone, especially someone I care about. Otherwise? I'm not quick to judge. I might think an opinion is disgusting but they have a right to have it, just like i have a right to rip it if it clashes with my core values. Then again, using facts filtered through the way i feel but if they don't change their views I don't really care, as long as I can voice my point and state my opinion. But it's more of a debate thing, I don't go out of my way to discuss things unless they hit me in my core but I might be one of those vocal -something- because I'm really passionate about my views. But I'm easygoing.
> 
> 
> I have my favorites and they're my security blankets but I also leave in the world of endless possibilities and speculation and just getting inspired by things so I'm not saying that I'd try a random new food or sky diving out of the blue, rather I'm more inclined of adding new spices to the processes and information I already have and if I feel like something is right, I can be reckless my own way. Which is probably not very but I'm still blissfully unaware of "how fast" is acting fast, I'll do it when my ideas are baked and ready to eat so I can follow through.
> 
> 
> YES :blushed:
> 
> 
> [9w8 >>> 4w5 intensifies]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're not being insistent at all and I love how free flowing and natural our conversations are, you're one of the most genuine people I know and I don't throw this kind of compliment around lightly. But you make me at ease and i can't just help spilling all the beans over your ricey understanding  we always brainstorm, bleed and laugh on two separate yet similar tracks and i love it. Asking someone to describe the way they use a function in detail, getting stuck on semantics ("you used the word idea out of place! Not Ne!" or "type 3s use the words competent, brilliant, efficient and power more than average"), not wanting to understand and getting stuck on a memory or using hurt feelings ("I hate you so you're an ENFJ/ESFJ/ESFP/INFP because I hate you and that type too, we clearly musyt be conflictors") is just wrong imho because... where's the logic and the objectivity in that? Anyone can pull up a definition from a book and feel smart but truly understanding something means being able to express it simply, to detect that specific pattern in a giant brick of text like this.
> 
> Also it's discouraging how many people unsolicitedly label people as mistyped, even if it were true who gives a shit? You can tell them and they can choose to acknowledge it or not but that's where it ends, typology is a tool for self growth not something to revolve your identity around. Two people of the same type can be different, that's called being human and having had different experiences, as well as personal development. Sure, it sucks when someone refuses to learn or listen to you but it wasn't your business to begin with, it's a personal self discovery journey and a type isn't an army of clones.
> 
> /rant over, let's have another beer
> 
> .
> 794?
> 
> 
> I'm not overly arrogant but damn if I don't hate looking dumb or incompetent! It's not my main focus in life and I know I have my limits and there's a lot I don't know but I'm often dismissed as silly, comic relief, fluffy, spacey or terrible at logic when I can actually bbq someone's ass if I actually snap into serious logical mode and use my insight. I guess I'm akin to those stoned partiers who will drop amazing knowledge mcnuggets that will blow you away with their infinite potential right before going back to make out with a shoe!
> 
> 
> 
> It took me 2 hours to type and edit this? :shocked:
> I definitely need songs, a cig and to kill off my liver for good! Drink it up
> 
> Thanks <333 worth waiting for
> @LassieHearts @Chesire Tower because they were curious about this


 @Animal This is good! I agree with what you said. 
@Hotes McGoats :wink:


----------



## heavydirtysoul

Hiiii  

@Flatlander

Needless to mention, I am sorry for taking an insanely huge amount of time to reply as it's hard for me to put thoughts and feelings into words that, subsequently, will be estimated correctly.

I got bogged down with futile self-searching, because, in my opinion, terrifyingly, everything that does not evolve, degrades. As usually, a little confused, a little caught in between who I am and who I want to be - apparently, I am not the one to handle mental instability.



> Do you feel like you aren't something already?


I do.​
"The mind is everything. What you think, you become."

Currently, I am in a state of being consummately unsolvable and erratic.

To me, _overthinking_ is a disease, doubt is infectious, lurking in the shadows, creating a mistrust of one's own perceptions. It has an ability to call into question everything you've ever believed and reinforce the darkest suspicions. 

I've always cherished the idea that the best parts of a person are a shady, well-hidden, unawakened mystery, desiring not to posses what people expect me to be, carrying dark, dusty things no one has to understand. _Individuality_ is what makes the life of a human being meaningful, sensible and valuable, bringing infinite potential to do anything, make anything, and project chosen, most intense qualities of an identity, a puzzle of one's distinct personality traits, activities and values. I love guess-work and halftones, I crave subtlety. Specifically, am fascinated with words, each combined with the other to create powerful notion. 

Not to mention the fact that I value negative emotion. Whether it's anger, fear, competency, it is immeasurably intense. While, _intensity_, by all means, is positive - it creates the energy that breeds productivity, spinning wildly into action with an undeniable power to an impulse, nearly impossible to pacify. 

I have to make a confession. I am in love with an unavailable man. Secretly, distantly, carelessly. Genuinely, it is one of the most terrible things in life, being in love, yet embracing the circumstance of despair. The sizzling sense of detachment within heating dearness, the purest emotion blacken with ambiguous immorality and hazy incertitude. Am I picky? Definitely. Coherent? No. 

I badly desire to be loved and give away the intensity of such emotion, yet dive in entirely and go off the deep end. Small talk, split-second glances, accidental touch, a kiss on the cheek, timid silence, wearying anticipation; to me, liking a person is addictive - you like the sensation and you think you can still control things, but you get attached and become dependent. 

Yet, currently, people don't make happy. People make me angry and spiteful, people give me panick attacks, people make me nervous. I have no space for solitude and no time to meditate, being surrounded by people roughly each hour of each day; I've lost the sense of self - all I do is work and sleep. Obviously, I desperately need a few days off, but frankly I cannot let myself have the "free time privilege" for the guilt of being useless, fading and unproductive.

There's a certain way I hate "him" for being in love with me. For God's sake! Who could love me? I am out of my mind, lost inside myself. Still searching, still looking, still haven't defined myself to the tiniest detail, and haven't found the peace of mind, yet I desperately desire to be perfect, collected. You can take it from me, I am nothing, a blank page. Consequently, I keep pushing him away, because I am scared and irritated. I want to cry, yet am too occupied with thinking, too occupied, in general, to melt down. Like a little kid, I feel tiny, fragile, defenceless. 

A good friend of mine is away at the moment, clearly, not an authority (we had a lot of bad moments in our relationship) but, to be completely honest, there's no authority in life to me at this point. 

Recently, I talked to him him for the first time in a very long period. He believes in me, he believes I can be that person, a good person. 

Serious, responsible, determined the one you can rely on.

Obviously, I do understand that my personal relationships, as you may call it, goes in spite of this. Conventionally, you do not fall in love with the "taken" man, but I don't think that things are simply right or wrong - things are more complicated than that. I believe in chasing what you're after, I believe in making the right choices for yourself, I believe in being brave. There's a certain power in it - if you do what is good for yourself, put your beliefs first, follow your most intense obsessions mercilessly, have some fire, and take what life has to offer, you can not go wrong. At the end of the day, I don't want to do good, I want to do better than them, to be unstoppable. 

@Flatlander, why is it Fi instead of Ti?



> You have a mix of perceptions about yourself that aren't very orderly, and may even seem contradictory at times, but evoke a very clear picture. You also appear a bit confused between who you actually are and an image of who you are, which is something I don't really see with other cores.


Exactly. That is where all of the frights and anxieties lie. To retrieve certainty it is necessary to simplify and appeal to the common denominator, because I am the type of person to like things that are concrete - something you could point to and know what it is.



> Do you feel like you aren't something already?


Not yet, but progressing - still trying to figure out how my life could be. 



> Narrowly organized lifestyle: Why do you need this?


For a sense of clarity and order. Not physically, but mentally, cerebrally. I need to, I desire to live schematically, organically. To wake up early, drink coffee. Be ambitious, keep priorities straight. Keep mind right and head up. Do well, live well, dress well. Do what I love, love what I do. Keep diaries, make lists, have a structured mindset. Yet, after all, when I crave order in life, I buy a new purse. 

At the moment I am desperately need to hear everyone's opinion, @Flatlander, @Animal, Karma and @Swordsman of Mana.


----------



## TurtleQueen

I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's willing to look at my Enneagram thread that I posted on the "What's My Type?" section yesterday. I realize that the post was massive, but I felt that I needed to be as thorough as possible in order to get an accurate typing.

I think I might be either a 1 or a 6 at this point and am leaning towards being a one. I realize that those Enneagram types don't normally align with my MBTI type of ENFP. I'm still floundering a bit in trying to understand Enneagram types. I am much more confident of my MBTI type than Enneagram type at this point since I was typed by an MBTI professional who explained how my cognitive functions manifested to me and feel that I am much more familiar with MBTI and Jungian cognitive functions theories than Enneagram.

I'm also interested in hearing about my instinctual stacking, wings, and fixes.


----------



## Darkbloom

So,since my typing thread is not going too well I'm gonna talk about my doubts here.

Currently I consider myself core 9,it seems to fit well,but I think I could also be core 3 or 6 because I feel extremely 3 and I'm far from being a very healthy 9 who is integrating towards 3,it's more like 3-ish side of 6 or even 9 in 3.

I'm a very ambitious person and I'm also very stubborn and I know what I want and in most cases I don't fear asking for it.I don't avoid conflict,I'm the one that makes other people avoid conflict around me,I'm not dependent if you don't count financial dependence (which will soon be over too),I'm definitely not self-forgetting,that's the last thing anyone who knows me would call me,and I'm very proud of all that.
Honestly,I might be trying too hard to kill the 9 in me because it's not good enough for the conscious part of me,but what'd be the point of that,isn't it actually far easier on both body and mind to be a stereotypical 9?Am I not sacrificing my inner peace for the sake of other people having good opinions about me and me feeling good about myself,doesn't just desire to impress automatically kill the inner peace?Wouldn't an unhealthy 9 be extremely unaware of who they are and how they want to be seen?Wouldn't they be too unaware of their anger at themselves and others?Could an unhealthy 9 ever think of themselves as sx first 3 or 4,types I used to be sure were the only options for me?

Any thoughts?


----------



## TurtleQueen

@Living dead

You and I seem to be having similar issues. I came into a thread thinking that I was a 1 or a 6, and people explained how I was a 6 and not a 1. I was thoroughly convinced of my type enough to put up that I'm a 6w7 on my profile. Now I'm getting told that I'm too focused on success and being the best to be a true 6 and might be a 3w2. The only reason I focus on success or my image so much is that I think appearing successful could make me less vulnerable to criticism from other people. I might have 3 somewhere in my tritype or frequently disintegrate to 3, but I cannot relate at all to what some descriptions of core 3s on this website have said. I consistently lack confidence enough to where nobody who knows me could think that I have real narcissistic tendencies, and I feel way too socially awkward to have "seductive" 3w2 traits.


----------



## Modal Soul

+pushes everyone out of the way+ ME BEFORE YOU ME FIRST


----------



## Darkbloom

TurtleQueen said:


> @Living dead
> 
> You and I seem to be having similar issues. I came into a thread thinking that I was a 1 or a 6, and people explained how I was a 6 and not a 1. I was thoroughly convinced of my type enough to put up that I'm a 6w7 on my profile. Now I'm getting told that I'm too focused on success and being the best to be a true 6 and might be a 3w2. The only reason I focus on success or my image so much is that I think appearing successful could make me less vulnerable to criticism from other people. I might have 3 somewhere in my tritype or frequently disintegrate to 3, but I cannot relate at all to what some descriptions of core 3s on this website have said. I consistently lack confidence enough to where nobody who knows me could think that I have real narcissistic tendencies, and I feel way too socially awkward to have "seductive" 3w2 traits.


In my case I don't think my desire for success is related to any sort of fear of people thing because some kinds of success can bring danger,both physical and emotional,because people can be very,very mean when envious,but that's not what I ever really think about.I'd be happy if someone told me mean things and wanted me dead just because they were envious.I want success because it is the thing I want,it just feels right.I don't really want _success_,I wanna be certain kind of person because it feels admirable and like I should be and really am in some way.It's also a bit of a revenge,being good enough to make people feel really bad just by existing haha
Maybe sometimes I over explain things to the point of them sounding very different then they actually are,I'm so used to lying about what motivates me and why irl that it kinda translates online too because "I _need_ that or I'm gonna kill someone" probably makes people think "How the hell do I type this person?",so I always either apologize for what I don't really feel sorry for,tone myself down a bit,etc.I also assume people would somehow see what really is behind my words,I feel the whole context makes it very clear but it usually doesn't and it leaves me surprised.I tell a random fact about myself in hope of it being a symbol of something else because I know it does symbolize something but then people just take it as a fact and nothing more or they see it as symbol of something entirely different and I start feeling misunderstood XD

As for what I _look_ like,I'm 3-ishly image focused kind of person but also pretty easygoing and not "omg now I must just work,work,work and be the best",I leave the impression of things just coming to me.Some people exaggerate the 2/3-ishness in their perception of me and think I'm the devil and people like the parents think I'm the purest angel,even they think I'm a bit of a princess though.
On the inside I'm not confident at all,it's mostly lack of confidence in cards I've been dealt.Like why can't I be born in a rich family,why can't I look like someone else,why can't I have IQ of 160 and those things have made me act shy throughout my life but at the same time people tell me I have some sort of inner confidence or at least weird defense mechanism that's telling me that I'm awesome no matter if anyone can currently see it or not and that I deserve more than most have.


----------



## TurtleQueen

@Living dead

I think that @Entropic and @Zamyatin have a good grasp of the theory. They were helpful in explaining to me why I'm a 6 and not a 1. For now, I know way too little about Enneagram to type anyone. I did reject being a core 3 fairly early when I first started getting interested in Enneagram. According to a fairly blind test I took, I was a 6w7 with 1 and 4 in my tritype and didn't even have 3 near my "Enneaspread" of initial results. When I took that test, I rejected the go-getter associations with type 3. I did look more into it after that person mentioned that I looked like a 3 and feel that type 3 totally came out of left field. My initial post was about how I'm a perfectionist who hates herself and doubts herself a lot, so I might have expected to get a superego type or even a type that is commonly said to have that kind of self-esteem issue like a 4. Getting told that I was a 3 with a pseudo-superego identity due to some of the childhood trauma (not very dramatic) that I shared was so confusing because it felt like I was getting typed with inner motivations that made no sense to me. From what I have read of Enneagram, becoming a certain type is based on some kind of loss in childhood, so technically all personalities have at least some sort of trauma. I might have accepted a 3 typing if the descriptions weren't so off from what I actually feel.


----------



## Paradigm

TurtleQueen said:


> I did look more into it after that person mentioned that I looked like a 3 and feel that type 3 totally came out of left field. My initial post was about how I'm a perfectionist who hates herself and doubts herself a lot, so I might have expected to get a superego type or even a type that is commonly said to have that kind of self-esteem issue like a 4. Getting told that I was a 3 with a pseudo-superego identity due to some of the childhood trauma (not very dramatic) that I shared was so confusing because it felt like I was getting typed with inner motivations that made no sense to me.


Yeah just FYI, it's generally respectful to at least mention someone when you talk about them.


----------



## TurtleQueen

Paradigm said:


> Yeah just FYI, it's generally respectful to at least mention someone when you talk about them.


I didn't mention you by name in case you might find this discussion disrespectful to you. I'm sorry if I offended you, and I guess I should have thought before I shared some of my frustrations about my type confusion in my thread with @Living dead. I believe that you had the best of intentions in that thread, but I really don't understand how you thought I could be a type three. I thought I had a fairly good grip on my type at first after the differences between a 1 and a 6 were explained to me, but you apparently disagreed with the people who typed me as a 6 for reasons that I may not understand as a novice to the Enneagram.

I'm still willing to understand how I might be a 3 if you wish to discuss it. If I am a 3, the descriptions of that type that I read are extremely inaccurate, and I would appreciate having a description that doesn't unfairly stereotype 3s.


----------



## Paradigm

TurtleQueen said:


> I didn't mention you by name in case you might find this discussion disrespectful to you. I'm sorry if I offended you, and I guess I should have thought before I shared some of my frustrations about my type confusion in my thread with Living dead. I believe that you had the best of intentions in that thread, but I really don't understand how you thought I could be a type three. I thought I had a fairly good grip on my type at first after the differences between a 1 and a 6 were explained to me, but you apparently disagreed with the people who typed me as a 6 for reasons that I may not understand as a novice to the Enneagram.
> 
> I'm still willing to understand how I might be a 3 if you wish to discuss it. If I am a 3, the descriptions of that type that I read are extremely inaccurate, and I would appreciate to have a description that doesn't unfairly stereotype 3s.


Honestly, yes, it was a _little _disrespectful to walk in on someone telling someone else how crazy I sound. I know I sounded "crazy" but I was attempting to explain myself as my availability today allowed. Had the thread not taken the turn it did, I would have explained in much more detail and answered any of your questions, but frankly my patience, or my love for conflict, is not that high. FWIW I do meant what I said and wish you the best, but right now I'm sorry I even bothered.


----------



## TurtleQueen

Paradigm said:


> Honestly, yes, it was a little disrespectful to walk in on someone telling someone else how crazy I sound. I know I sounded "crazy" but I was attempting to explain myself as my availability today allowed. Had the thread not taken the turn it did, I would have explained in much more detail and answered any of your questions, but frankly my patience, or my love for conflict, is not that high. FWIW I do meant what I said and wish you the best, but right now I'm sorry I even bothered.


I'm sorry if I said something offensive about you, but I was not attempting to tell @Living dead that you were crazy just because I felt that being typed as a 3 came out of left field. I might have used the wrong wording there, but I strongly cannot see myself as a core 3. I might have used bad wording with "that person," but I only meant to say "someone." I'm sorry for using sloppy wording. In terms of my other wording, I can admit that certain things that happened to me changed my personality. I don't consider it a trauma since the event was far less awful than what some people have had to face, and I didn't want to disrespect people who have faced something more severe by labeling what happened to me as a trauma. Perhaps I didn't understand what you were trying to tell me, but trying to consider myself as a three didn't make much sense to me based on what I was able to find about how that type thinks and acts. I don't think that I have more emotionality than a typical three because of my gender since I feel that I am more emotionally turbulent than most women and most men. If anything, the intensity of some of my emotions has been considered socially unacceptable. I am an ENFP, so being an F type could account for an increased level of emotionality in comparison to other 6s. Type three motivations as a core do not make much sense to me on a personal level.

ETA: As a person who is new to the Enneagram, I feel that I need to know the differences between types. If someone tells me that a person who is a 3 can have a superego identity that is not innate while other people say that I'm a clear example of a superego type, I just end up confused. I'm not blaming you for my confusion, but I am curious at where you would draw the line between a 3 with the characteristics you saw and a 6.


----------



## Paradigm

TurtleQueen said:


> I'm sorry if I said something offensive about you, but I was not attempting to tell @_Living dead_ that you were crazy just because I felt that being typed as a 3 came out of left field. I might have used the wrong wording there, but I strongly cannot see myself as a core 3. I might have used bad wording with "that person," but I only meant to say "someone." I'm sorry for using sloppy wording. In terms of my other wording, I can admit that certain things that happened to me changed my personality. I don't consider it a trauma since the event was far less than what some people have had to face, and I didn't want to disrespect people who have faced something more severe by labeling what happened to me as a trauma. Perhaps, I didn't understand what you were trying to tell me, but trying to consider myself as a three didn't make much sense to me based on what I was able to find about how that type acts. I don't think that I have more emotionality than a typical three because of my gender because I feel that I am more emotionally turbulent than women as well as men. If anything, the intensity of some of my emotions has been considered socially unacceptable. I am an ENFP, so being an F type could account for some of my level of emotions in comparison to other 6s. Type three motivations as a core do not make much sense to me.


Now this is just becoming a rehash of your thread. None of you actually understood what I said, and part of me wonders if you're trying. You're also all taking the sex thing much farther than I had anticipated, which on one hand is slightly understandable since I did technically mention it twice, but also rather ironic considering I identify as agender and thus don't actually understand gender roles beyond what I've (repeatedly) read from studies / anecdotes. In other words, it was _not _the intended crux of my "argument." It also only furthers the (incorrect) idea that 3s have no emotional IQ of their own, which is more sociopathic than 3. Every 3 I've met has had their own emotions, because being emotional is being human. (I'm aware of the outliers, and of type 5.)

I guess this description of 3 might pass: https://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personlitytype3. I'm wondering if most descriptions attempt to describe the possible goals of 3 and end up coming off like 3s attempt to achieve _everything_ when it should just be _one awesome thing_ (or perhaps a few things).

As I said, my patience isn't very high, and I'm reaching the end of my rope for tonight. (And yes, this is a flaw of mine, admittedly.) I may or may not return tomorrow, but for now I'm signing out.

EDIT: My beginning was rude. I apologize. Leaving it in because yeah I did say it, but once I re-saw it I know I shouldn't have.


----------



## TurtleQueen

@Paradigm

Thanks for giving me a description that seems more accurate to you for Type 3. I quickly looked through the description and don't think that I am as success-driven as even the description that you gave me. I think I have a drive to be liked or to avoid the vulnerability that I feel when I am disliked before I have a drive to be successful. I will look at the description more thoroughly soon so that I can give it my full consideration.


----------



## TurtleQueen

accidental post


----------



## heavydirtysoul

I swear, I don't want to be intrusive, but it would be real helpful to hear some thoughts from you regarding my previous post. @Flatlander, @Animal, @%1;, @Swordsman of Mana.


----------



## Flatlander

@sweet disaster

I saw your post. I will get back to you, I'm just off in my own world of work and programming for the time being.


----------



## Acadia

Hey so I'm pretty satisfied in general with my enneagram typing, but I'm not certain of it. 

For an Fi-dom, I'm pretty outgoing and tend do be driven by adventure, and actually making adventure happen. I've stuck to my goal of becoming a conservation biologist since I was a kid; I've traveled quite a bit in pursuit of internships and I do love doing so. I love new experiences, especially when it comes to athletics or roughing it; and I do well independently. If I want something, I make it happen. I'm not afraid of much and romantic ideals actually turn me off; stability is not something I actively pursue in my life; ultimately I trust myself. 

There are a couple things about the seven descriptor that do not quite suit me, though; I don't exactly flit from idea to idea, and I'm not exactly certain I understand how enneagram works in regard to truths vs stereotypes, but I'm a bit more reserved until I let my Se take over. 

On top of being adventurous and passionate, I'm also inquisitive, stubborn, and I can be blunt and argumentative if I find the situation worth it. 

Thoughts?


----------



## heavydirtysoul

Flatlander said:


> @_sweet disaster_
> 
> I saw your post. I will get back to you, I'm just off in my own world of work and programming for the time being.


Thank you, I'll be waiting.


----------



## cloquet

What's the best way to go about differentiating 5w6 vs 3w4. I feel like I embody many traits of both yet don't fully fit with either. Too imagey and self-conscious to be a 5. But not outgoing or hardworking enough to be a 3.

At my best, I'm more in line with a healthy 5. But I fit a lot of 3 qualities in the average to unhealthy range.

If it helps, I recently posted a thread in the What's My Type section.


----------



## galactic collision

@cloquet I don't know if this helps at all, but one big reason I mistyped as a 4w3 for so long was because I was like "uh I'm way too concerned with my image (and identity) to be anything but an image type" and 4w3 descriptions were all horrifyingly spot on. The difference was that descriptions of 4 by itself didn't always ring as true, because I felt that I wasn't quite as melancholy and the way I pick and choose how to display my image is much more focused on making the bad parts look good than baring everything. 

This is all to say that you can be any type and have issues with your image or identity. The heart types do not have the monopoly on that. What the heart types have that make them more image-oriented above all else (rather than, in my case, in addition to all else) is that they feel shame and try to compensate for that shame in their various ways. Is shame something you feel and identify with? This might be a question that a 3 would find harder to answer but that's kind of your key to differentiating whether or not you're in the heart triad.


----------



## Darkbloom

@justforthespark ,wouldn't anyone who sees themselves in an image type and is very focused on image also feel shame and try to compensate for it?


----------



## galactic collision

@Living dead Hmm. No, I don't think so. Not in full. I mean, we all have elements of every type in us, and so we are all bound to experience everything - anger, shame, fear. Being that we are humans, we will experience myriad emotions, many of which we won't be able to explain or will wish we didn't have. The enneagram is one tool that we try to use to explain those emotions, though, so here's what I think.

When I think about image, when I think about what image means to _me_, and how rocky my relationship with my self-esteem and body image has been over the course of my life, I don't feel shame. I feel fear. Not the shame that they don't accept me or that I am worthless, but the _fear_ of those things. Especially before I moved out, I felt a big clash with my hometown and had a bad relationship with myself because of my bad relationship to my town. I didn't _feel_ that there was something was wrong with me, but I feared it. At my worst, I believed it. But my negative self-image was always laid with a solid foundation of fear. Fear that they wouldn't like me. Fear that I would try to be myself and they would reject me. Fear that everyone in the world was in on something that I didn't know. Fear that I would never live my life and do the things that I wanted to do, just because I was loud/fat/annoying/ugly/whatever I was calling myself that day.

The fear is also other-directed. It's often not "I'm worthless," it's "they think I'm worthless." I have no _shame_ about who I am. I just have a fear of expressing it. Because of that I've always been very image conscious, but I'm not in the image triad. I'm just self-aware. 

Hope that clears what I said up. If anyone else wants to add onto this or dispute something I said, feel free.


----------



## Darkbloom

@justforthespark ,thanks for the answer.I get it,but I don't really get it XD
I thought something like that,but there's always something I don't understand when it comes to non image type image focus.It's just so easy to get the things you want unless they include you being the perfect person with perfect things who presents themselves in a perfect way,that's the hardest thing to accomplish so I guess I don't understand why would anyone concern themselves with image if what they actually want is not as difficult to get,from my point of view.
Why can't a person go straight to what they want instead of doing million things before that?


----------



## Kisshoten

Living dead said:


> @_justforthespark_ ,thanks for the answer.I get it,but I don't really get it XD
> I thought something like that,but there's always something I don't understand when it comes to non image type image focus.It's just so easy to get the things you want unless they include you being the perfect person with perfect things who presents themselves in a perfect way,that's the hardest thing to accomplish so I guess I don't understand why would anyone concern themselves with image if what they actually want is not as difficult to get,from my point of view.
> Why can't a person go straight to what they want instead of doing million things before that?


Sorry to hijack. 

Think of what spark said as 'shame vs. fear of potential shame.'

I have my fair share of shame related problems, but it is usually fear that I'd feel ashamed if I did or said X. It's not _"I'm so embarrassed/self-consious!"_ It is _"I don't want to be embarrassed/self-conscious, but I may be if I do or say X. So I won't do or say X."

_Does this help?

EDIT: as to the question: what you find difficult need not be difficult for another. Vice versa is also true. Image types find it easy to present themselves as perfect, or have identity revolve around their ideal self rather than to adopt the defense mechanisms of other types.


----------



## Darkbloom

Vergil said:


> Sorry to hijack.
> 
> Think of what spark said as 'shame vs. fear of potential shame.'
> 
> I have my fair share of shame related problems, but it is usually fear that I'd feel ashamed if I did or said X. It's not _"I'm so embarrassed/self-consious!"_ It is _"I don't want to be embarrassed/self-conscious, but I may be if I do or say X. So I won't do or say X."
> 
> _Does this help?
> 
> EDIT: as to the question: what you find difficult need not be difficult for another. Vice versa is also true. Image types find it easy to present themselves as perfect, or have identity revolve around their ideal self rather than to adopt the defense mechanisms of other types.


What I meant is that sometimes people concern themselves with appearing certain way for no reason.Like,I often hear 6's sometimes look like a 3 and care about image for idk what reasons,but I don't get why would image be that important for what they are trying to accomplish.

And what's the difference between fear of shame and shame?Do you fear feeling shame or how people would see you?


----------



## Kisshoten

Living dead said:


> What I meant is that sometimes people concern themselves with appearing certain way for no reason.Like,I often hear 6's sometimes look like a 3 and care about image for idk what reasons,but I don't get why would image be that important for what they are trying to accomplish.
> 
> And what's the difference between fear of shame and shame?Do you fear feeling shame or how people would see you?


Why are people concerned with fitness? Why do people care where man came from? Why do some people care about being competent? A million reasons can be offered and every single one of them may seem pointless to you or me. Doesn't change the fact that people are concerned with those things.

The difference between fear of shame and shame itself is in the dominant feeling felt. Fear of shame is essentially fear. What is common to both and probably a source of confusion is that both arise out of insecurities. Shame brings about insecurities wrt worth while fear brings about insecurities wrt safety. 

For a head type that is associated with deception (type 7; rationalizations; charlatanism) fear of shame means fear of being figured out, or of being called on our bluff, or our tricks not working the way we expected them to. All of these situations would result in shame, but the bigger consequence is that people will no longer believe you and you get taken for granted. This marks the end of any security the 7 could hope for. This means, the 7 would have to be careful and struggle. There is no safety, no comfort zone. I hope you can see how this is not the same as feeling worthless.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Living dead
I think for 6, the image they put on is more meant as a protection, like say, acting tough to fight against fear in the case of counterphobic 6. So they can act deceitful or vain or whatever, but it's a way of hiding out of fear more so than shame.

(Hopefully that's not too far from the kind of answer you were looking for =P)


----------



## Darkbloom

Vergil said:


> Why are people concerned with fitness? Why do people care where man came from? Why do some people care about being competent? A million reasons can be offered and every single one of them may seem pointless to you or me. Doesn't change the fact that people are concerned with those things.
> 
> The difference between fear of shame and shame itself is in the dominant feeling felt. Fear of shame is essentially fear. What is common to both and probably a source of confusion is that both arise out of insecurities. Shame brings about insecurities wrt worth while fear brings about insecurities wrt safety.
> 
> For a head type that is associated with deception (type 7; rationalizations; charlatanism) fear of shame means fear of being figured out, or of being called on our bluff, or our tricks not working the way we expected them to. All of these situations would result in shame, but the bigger consequence is that people will no longer believe you and you get taken for granted. This marks the end of any security the 7 could hope for. This means, the 7 would have to be careful and struggle. There is no safety, no comfort zone. I hope you can see how this is not the same as feeling worthless.


Yes,I see how it's not the same as feeling worthless,but everything 7 wants can be achieved without their "deception",so I don't get why they do it in the first place.


----------



## galactic collision

Living dead said:


> Yes,I see how it's not the same as feeling worthless,but everything 7 wants can be achieved without their "deception",so I don't get why they do it in the first place.


What do you mean, everything 7 wants can be achieved without deception? What do you consider to be everything 7 wants?


----------



## Darkbloom

Kink said:


> @Living dead
> I think for 6, the image they put on is more meant as a protection, like say, acting tough to fight against fear in the case of counterphobic 6. So they can act deceitful or vain or whatever, but it's a way of hiding out of fear more so than shame.
> 
> (Hopefully that's not too far from the kind of answer you were looking for =P)


Imo phobic 6 should not be successful or attention grabbing in any way.Doesn't being danger to others bring danger to you?
Counterphobic I'm definitely not.
What's that counterphobic 6's are trying to prove though,that they are not afraid?And can't you be ashamed of being fearful?


----------



## Kisshoten

Living dead said:


> Yes,I see how it's not the same as feeling worthless,but everything 7 wants can be achieved without their "deception",so I don't get why they do it in the first place.


umm... "everything 7 wants" is not a correct way to phrase things. It's usually "7 wants everything," which I think we can both agree on, is impossible.


----------



## Darkbloom

Vergil said:


> umm... "everything 7 wants" is not a correct way to phrase things. It's usually "7 wants everything," which I think we can both agree on, is impossible.


And I personally don't see a reason behind 7 wanting everything lol


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Living dead said:


> Imo phobic 6 should not be successful or attention grabbing in any way.Doesn't being danger to others bring danger to you?
> Counterphobic I'm definitely not.
> What's that counterphobic 6's are trying to prove though,that they are not afraid?And can't you be ashamed of being fearful?


Well, I don't tend to be that attention grabbing myself, but I might still have some ways of "hiding" I guess. (Although I might not be very good at it.)

Hm, I think so yeah.



Living dead said:


> And I personally don't see a reason behind 7 wanting everything lol


Because nothing is ever enough, I guess.^^;


----------



## galactic collision

Living dead said:


> And I personally don't see a reason behind 7 wanting everything lol


As a 7, I can confirm that I want everything. 

Or rather, I want to DO everything.


----------



## Darkbloom

justforthespark said:


> As a 7, I can confirm that I want everything.
> 
> Or rather, I want to DO everything.


Like what?What do you feel you couldn't do?And why do you wanna do things anyway?


----------



## Kisshoten

Living dead said:


> And I personally don't see a reason behind 7 wanting everything lol


It comes with being insatiable - the very foundation of gluttony.


----------



## Darkbloom

Ok,I guess I get it,they just want it because it's in their nature to want it,so yeah,it kinda makes sense that they wanna have every good quality that will bring experiences and fear not being good enough for being able to DO,for whatever reason

Still don't get 6 though,the counterphobic kind especially
Phobic I do understand a bit,but I think they work too hard for just the basic things no one else gives much thought.


Btw can someone finally tell me if I might be mistyped? XD


----------



## galactic collision

Living dead said:


> Like what?What do you feel you couldn't do?And why do you wanna do things anyway?


Why wouldn't I want to do things?

I want a taste of everything. I want to experience everything. There's no fun in sitting around doing nothing, unless I'm dreaming up the next thing I'm going to make or do. 

Things I can't do:
- work in a morgue or hospital
- impregnate someone
- enjoy mashed potatoes (sorry I just can't)
- go to Mars

As you can see, the list is short but significant.


----------



## Pelopra

I feel like this is just another detour into navel gazing on my part, but I *still* can't settle on whether I'm sx/sp or sp/sx....


----------



## Modal Soul

*do me*


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Me too.

Seriously, I swear I get less Nine-like every day. Am I mistyped or just going crazy?


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> Me too.
> 
> Seriously, I swear I get less Nine-like every day. Am I mistyped or just going crazy?



That could just be integration. Has your life gotten better recently? Have you decided to change the way you do things in a radical fashion?


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Autvoyeur said:


> That could just be integration. Has your life gotten better recently? Have you decided to change the way you do things in a radical fashion?


Better - I don't know. I guess. 

Have I changed - my thoughts have, in various ways; both adopting new modes of thought and revisiting old ones.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> Better - I don't know. I guess.


Where would the improvement be, if you don't mind me asking?



> Have I changed - my thoughts have, in various ways; both adopting new modes of thought and revisiting old ones.


How so? Note that integration basically centers around recognizing the problems with a certain thought process that's part of your type, at least in theory.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Autvoyeur said:


> Where would the improvement be, if you don't mind me asking?


In two days I leave a very toxic environment I've been stuck in for over a year, that's probably the biggest change.



> How so? Note that integration basically centers around recognizing the problems with a certain thought process that's part of your type, at least in theory.


For some reason my mind has turned back to thoughts of self-improvement and self-development - surprisingly image-focused. What and who I want to be, what I want for myself. It's like I'm getting back in touch with it after ignoring it for several years, and now at least it's not just fantasizing but I'd actually like to act on these desires somehow.


----------



## letter_to_dana

If there is anyone willing to make any assumptions about my type ... go ahead.
I tested as type 6 more than once. But I'm not that strict and serious as they are. Also I can't be type 7 because I'm soo personal and deep to be a 7. I'm not sure. First time I heard of enneagram I tested as a 4. So I'm not sure.
It would be better to complete a questionnaire I guess... Soon.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

letter_to_dana said:


> If there is anyone willing to make any assumptions about my type ... go ahead.
> I tested as type 6 more than once. But I'm not that strict and serious as they are. Also I can't be type 7 because I'm soo personal and deep to be a 7. I'm not sure. First time I heard of enneagram I tested as a 4. So I'm not sure.
> It would be better to complete a questionnaire I guess... Soon.


So how are you too deep to be a 7


----------



## TurtleQueen

letter_to_dana said:


> If there is anyone willing to make any assumptions about my type ... go ahead.
> I tested as type 6 more than once. But I'm not that strict and serious as they are. Also I can't be type 7 because I'm soo personal and deep to be a 7. I'm not sure. First time I heard of enneagram I tested as a 4. So I'm not sure.
> It would be better to complete a questionnaire I guess... Soon.


I definitely can't tell anything about your type from this post since you're mentioning stereotypes about the types and not describing anything about core motivations or anything concrete that you read in type descriptions. For 6s, the "strict and serious" thing is a stereotype based on soc-6 descriptions. A healthy soc-6 is probably going to look less rigid and more relaxed. It might be helpful for you to attempt to figure out your instinctual stacking while you are considering your potential type. A resource thread on instinctual stacking is available here. I haven't researched very much about type 7s, but the idea that they aren't personal or deep seems to be based on a misunderstanding of how they uniquely deal with their anxiety as a head type and some stereotypes about the positive outlook harmonic group. Information about the the triads (head, heart, and gut types) is available here and more information about harmonic groups is available here.

It would probably be best for you to fill out a questionnaire and get opinions from users who are knowledgable about the Enneagram. If something isn't resonating to you about certain type descriptions, it would be helpful to know why you don't feel that the description is personally accurate for you.


----------



## cloquet

letter_to_dana said:


> If there is anyone willing to make any assumptions about my type ... go ahead.
> I tested as type 6 more than once. But I'm not that strict and serious as they are. Also I can't be type 7 because I'm soo personal and deep to be a 7. I'm not sure. First time I heard of enneagram I tested as a 4. So I'm not sure.
> It would be better to complete a questionnaire I guess... Soon.


6? Strict and serious? Most 6s are usually pretty playful and down-to-earth. They'll work hard, but they're not overly-serious in the way a 1 or 3 might be.


----------



## Paradigm

cloquet said:


> 6? Strict and serious? Most 6s are usually pretty playful and down-to-earth. They'll work hard, but they're not overly-serious in the way a 1 or 3 might be.


Especially 6w7s, the more "playful" variant of 6s. I mean, even I'm generally considered rather "serious" but have an easy time laughing. And the main reason I'm "serious" is depression and natural reservedness.

Though, small nitpick, I know a couple 3s who are quite "playful" during their own time. When doing something they find important, they're more serious. (Then again, I know another 3 who is super-srs and it's offputting.)


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## letter_to_dana

cloquet said:


> 6? Strict and serious? Most 6s are usually pretty playful and down-to-earth. They'll work hard, but they're not overly-serious in the way a 1 or 3 might be.


For me a serious person is a down to earth person and a rational one. I'm far from being any of those.
Also, 6s from what I've read do not often let their projects unfinished (thing I do almost all the time because I'm a perfectionist and if I feel that one little detail won't go the way it is supposed to then I feel discouraged and am able to leave everything because I can't stand the idea of being criticized).
I believe I test as a 6 because of my constant self-doubt and low self-esteem.


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## Sixty Nein

letter_to_dana said:


> 6s from what I've read do not often let their projects unfinished


I thought that procrastination was one of those things that sixes are more often-than-not to have a lot of trouble with though. I mean, you get up to a 6's face (or anyone's really) and you'll get the chomps. However the anxiety of the 6 is quite intense, and thus it's not uncommon for them to have a bunch of papers piled up sooner or later.


----------



## Paradigm

letter_to_dana said:


> For me a serious person is a down to earth person and a rational one. I'm far from being any of those.


I'm Ni-dom and have a 7 wing. If I let you hear most of my inner thoughts, beliefs, or ponderings, I would not be considered either of those things.

However, I _don't_ let most people hear those (even my best friends), which is why I'm considered rational. My mom hears the "worst" of my inner-life and she thinks I'm hopelessly idealistic xD (Which is slightly funny, as she's 692 and I think she's hopelessly pessimistic -- and my friends think I'm hopelessly cynical.)



> Also, 6s from what I've read do not often let their projects unfinished (thing I do almost all the time because I'm a perfectionist and if I feel that one little detail won't go the way it is supposed to then I feel discouraged and am able to leave everything because I can't stand the idea of being criticized).


You're not reading the right things, nor do you have a real understanding of 6 (or apparently 7). Try http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/73144-enneagram-type-6-proper-description.html.

I honestly don't remember the last "project" I've finished. Seriously, I _do not_ finish things. That's another reason why I considered being core 7, because I'm such a planner but not much of a finisher/doer, but, hell, I think core 7s would probably finish more than I do. I get excited at first and then I get demotivated and overwhelmed and stop planning and working.

Related: I've posted this elsewhere, but... 6s aren't necessarily the quintessential hard worker. I will not put _any_ effort into something I don't care about. I have to care and be interested to become a hard worker, and that's a rare situation for me to be in (so far).



> I believe I test as a 6 because of my constant self-doubt and low self-esteem.


It's possible, yeah. If you have any anxiety (clinically speaking), it's possible to test as 6, too.


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## heavydirtysoul

Did everyone forget about me?


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## Darkbloom

sweet disaster said:


> Did everyone forget about me?


You're not alone


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## heavydirtysoul

@Flatlander did you come up with any ideas so far?


----------



## 7rr7s

Not completely sold on it, but I can see reasons for it. @_Rinnie_ @_@Daleks exterminate_ and anyone else who wants to chime in. Reasons why you think I'm a 6 core. And phobic or counter phobic? Any thoughts on wing? Any other insights too.


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## daleks_exterminate

KindOfBlue06 said:


> Not completely sold on it, but I can see reasons for it. @_Rinnie_ @_@Daleks exterminate_ and anyone else who wants to chime in. Reasons why you think I'm a 6 core. And phobic or counter phobic? Any thoughts on wing? Any other insights too.


I think 6 yes. Reasons many. I'll respond with that later


----------



## Polexia

So i've seriously gone around thinking, for a while that I'm a 7 and tritype 738. NOW, after a talk and a few pointers from a friends here at perc I think I'm not a 7, but rather a 3. How do I figure this out? 

and should I like tag people?


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## galactic collision

I filled out a questionnaire if anyone's interested in reading and helping me make sure I'm correctly typed.


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## Darkbloom

I currently consider myself either 3w2 or 2w3 with 5 and 9 fix.
Here's my typing thread:
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...t-last-time-im-answering-these-questions.html
Just read the questionnaire answers and the last few pages,they are more telling than the questionnaire itself imo

Please help:sad:


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## Swordsman of Mana

@Fern
I don't buy you as Sexual 9 for a second. you are feisty, opinionated, not afraid of confrontation. I think you are Sexual 6w7>1>4


----------



## Fern

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Fern_
> I don't buy you as Sexual 9 for a second. you are feisty, opinionated, not afraid of confrontation. I think you are Sexual 6w7>1>4














You could be right though!


----------



## Flatlander

If I've said I'm going to get to your typing and i haven't yet, please mention me or tag me or something. I've been woefully behind with this site but things are starting to settle down so I can do stuff again.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Flatlander said:


> If I've said I'm going to get to your typing and I haven't yet (and you're still interested), please mention me or tag me or something. I've been woefully behind with this site but things are starting to settle down so I can do stuff again.


You did offer and while I pretty sure of my type; I am always interested in the opinions of people I respect. I am most confused about my instincts. I'm trying to decide between SO/SX and SX/SO; however, I could see a valid argument for SX/SP or SP/SX 'though. Have you read Helen Palmer's _Understanding the People in Your Life through the Enneagram_ or something like it? It is the only Enneagram book that really captures all the different ways that the nine types pay attention and I related to the way that 5s do this more than any other type.


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## Sixty Nein

I've read @Mandraque 's questionnaire, and honestly it seems as if he is more of an image type to me or something. I just feel like there is this sort of "Sheen" on him or something, and that a lot of his responses to the questionnaire seems to be censored by a concept that he has on his mind that he wants to be.

I don't really know though, I'm not good with detecting types in general, and I don't know him very well anyways.

He came across to me as a rather boisterous 4, or a 3. His sense of style comes from a specific aesthetic, and a 7 or 6 would probably not really put that much time into that. Maybe they would try to analyze their presentation, without really bothering to stick with it. It's confusing to explain.


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## TheProphetLaLa

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/440962-your-prophet-back-once-more-_.html

Suggestions, attacks, or blood feuds welcome.


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## Flatlander

Chesire Tower said:


> You did offer and while I pretty sure of my type; I am always interested in the opinions of people I respect. I am most confused about my instincts. I'm trying to decide between SO/SX and SX/SO; however, I could see a valid argument for SX/SP or SP/SX 'though. Have you read Helen Palmer's _Understanding the People in Your Life through the Enneagram_ or something like it? It is the only Enneagram book that really captures all the different ways that the nine types pay attention and I related to the way that 5s do this more than any other type.


I did offer. Can you relink me to your thread?

I have this sneaking suspicion that in order for me to really get why you type yourself at 5 I'd need to talk to you off forum. It never clicked back when I used to find your posts here and there. It especially didn't click back when you were really thinking about your type hard. Perhaps things have changed, or perhaps I'm missing something.

If you're up for it, we can skype chat.


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## Chesire Tower

@Flatlander, thank you so much for taking the time to not only help correctly type me but actually listen to me as well.


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## Adena

@Living dead sweetie, I don't think you're a 3w2! Probably a 2w3


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## Darkbloom

Gray Romantic said:


> @Living dead sweetie, I don't think you're a 3w2! Probably a 2w3


Could you elaborate?


----------



## Chesire Tower

mimesis said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could also be a typical INFP issue. Hiding of emotions behind a neutral mask/expression (and dispositional focus on inner world) makes it difficult for others to read, like whether you enjoy someone's company, or how you feel. It may in certain context even come across as desinterest, bored, apathy or arrogance. Enigmatic at best. Unintentionally, but also not aware of this non-verbal social interaction/ exchange of social cues, in part because there is less outward orientation with regard to Feeling. And so often, when extroverts, or Fe checks to gauge feeling, this is easily met with defensiveness and fear being overwhelmed on the part of the INFP, like as if they did something wrong, or feel forced to fake emotion, or to 'come out of their shell', or feel self conscious about it, or yeah...misunderstood. Which arguably is mutual, as Fe may feel his concern for the other's feeling (genuine or not) is not acknowledged or disregarded.
> 
> Not something that can't be fixed.


You know, this sounds an awful lot like 5, especially 5w4: enigmatic in expressions, not wanting to be seen.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Just had a mistype revelation of my own: sp/so, not sp/sx. Recent experience and reflection is making me realize I'm freaking terrified of intensity and intimacy. I want it in theory, but when it actually presents itself, I freak out and run in the other direction. 

Picking my middle instinct is hard - an interest in the kinds of ideas and events that could impact society at large is probably the only so-instinct thing - as much as I relate to descriptions and experiences of social-last, I outright flee from sx. Not sure what that leaves me....


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Thaumaturgic Theorist
Hm, I think that with Sp as the dominant instinct, there can be some reservation about fully indulging the second instinct regardless, because of wanting to shield the self. 

And now I'm finding myself reconsidering Sp/So or something too, albeit for different reasons. Sometimes I can get so caught up into how things seem to play into a... bigger picture, I guess. Would think that stuff would be easier to ignore if I was Social-last, but I dunno. :/


----------



## Golden Rose

sittapygmaea said:


> I'm starting here, out of honesty, and will return to the rest tomorrow when I'm more alert. I wouldn't say I _know_ my full tritype, but I have some strong inclinations. 4w5 5w4: pretty damn sure. Then either 1w9 or 9w1 (honestly not sure). Probably sp/sx.
> 
> you seem more ethereal and other-worldly than me; there is that delicate beauty that leads other people (including me) to want to trust and protect you. (...) You also seem more sensate than me, with a more dispersed and less laser-like focused energy, which makes you more capable of losing yourself in the moment and also produces outbursts of infectious whimsy and absurdity. By contrast, I am more bookish and cerebral, in my head, second guessing things and tripping over myself looking for the best turn of phrase or most relevant point.


I can see it, I could also see a 6w5 fix because you seem to be a lot more grounded than I am, a lot more cerebral although I see myself as quite cerebral and brainy, it just comes across in extremely misguided ways as I'm too moody, disconnect from reality and trapped into my feelings to have it structured the way I want, it's endlessly frustrating. I had an INTJ ask me "why do you care about sounding smart?" and all I could think of was that it's not that I want to sound smart, I just want to be able to access to my Te properly and be more orderly, it's easier when you have all that elegant NiTe that helps you make perfect sense in 4 words... I have to keep on adding until my thoughts come across as objectively sound.

I think both 9 and 5 are part of my tritype, my positive pushes get dissected like lab rats and I have this extreme compulsion to research, this greed about what I perceive is mine and I don't want to lose or have it 'stolen'. I'm very stingy with my time, resources and interactions, I'm the first one to wander off like a cat whenever I get too overwhelmed by anything, even online. Routine coffee/music/cig breaks are sort of an inside joke at this point, as well as "sorry I've been spacing out for about... what? 50 minutes".



> Part of the connection is undoubtedly because of your openness and sx character, both of which tend to draw people in, but there seems more to it than that. In particular, I 'feel' your 4w5 dark-moody-unsatisfied-pessimistic-relentless- character. There is also a familiar push-pull between being closed off and guarding your inner world from outside interference while accepting it and being candid and open about it.


Yes to all of this, I'm an extremely candid and blunt person but I'm also very guarded because of my insecure nature and my need to withdraw and catch a breather, I don't do anything that I don't feel like is necessary and even when I get little happy pushes, like right now, my darkness and depressing nature don't exactly go away and I keep them close. I just enjoy being able to be free and goofy, it's been a long time since I truly had fun so at times it's nice to remember that I actually can. I feel extremely disoriented though, happiness confuses the hell out of me because it's never truly complete and it can crumble anytime, also I don't want to let go of my deepest bleeding feelings, I often feel like sudden 'blissful' states of mind generate some sort of daze and I'm not sure if I like it completely. But I want to be at harmony with myself the most and true to the way I truly feel, even if it means having to put my foot down and hurting myself.



mimesis said:


> Could also be a typical INFP issue.
> Not something that can't be fixed.


I agree and this is another reason why Fe users are extremely taxing for me, even inferior Fe users although they're also extremely magnetic their own way, with the weird logic and freakouts about feelings and anger. Honestly I never understood the need to intrude and question someone's mood simply going by facial expressions, I can tell when someone's truly upset and even in that case, it's only their call whether they want to share or not. I know that when I'm truly upset, depressed, hurt or angry, the last thing I want is talking about it with someone even more so someone I'm not especially connected too.

Also, I'm quite aware that I'd end up blurting out things. 
I'm the kind of girl who'll tell someone "you know I was incredibly jealous of you and wished you eternal diarrhea but now I realized that you're actually really cool and I was just being stupid" to their face and then feel ashamed about it but only to a degree, mostly involving admitting that kind of envy. But me and subtlety are two different universes which makes all my attempts at anything all the more cringe-worthy but in retrospect it can be a cute kind of cringe. When faced with actual conflict I turtle up though, I try to avoid it unless it's something I'm truly invested in or that I don't find pointless because being put on the spot is hard and even more so if I'm scared to mess up or lose someone. I mess up anyway, don't fear.



Chesire Tower said:


> You know, this sounds an awful lot like 5, especially 5w4: enigmatic in expressions, not wanting to be seen.


I'd have considered 5w4 but 4w5 and 5w4 together would make me on the fence between the two types and it's clear that my 4 is overwhelming and there's no chance I have a 3 wing so... perhaps it can be chalked up to both 5w6 and Fi dominance. Also, you brought up interesting points about me being 1 fixed but then again aren't 9w1s just as stubborn and persnickety? I don't wish to fix anyone, I abhor the very thought, flaws are beautiful. I'll just lend them some sense if they want it and do my own thing as soon as I'm not misread or misinterpreted (even more so if someone tries to put words in my mouth).

@DaphneDelRey wondered whether I was actually an antisocial/asocial ENFP with lots of baggage and shyness but in the end we both realized that I'm truly introverted in nature, not just nurture and even though my Te is decent enough, it's still dwarfed but all of this Fi. Plus I'm nowhere nearly that crunchy, headstrong or flirty, I'm just a ball of awkward who won't budge for whatever reason. INFP.

@Thaumaturgic Theorist I can see you as sp/sx as usually sp tends to cage any other instinct and make it messy and more painful, I see some craving of deep connections and yet a lot of fear of intimacy. But I don't know you all that well, instincts can be hard to pinpoint because behavior, personal experience and neurosis can make everything harder, I crave anything sx, passionate and intense but I'm also stiff as a board when it does shine bright like a diamond in the sky on its own. I can't exactly control nor conceal it, like a sp-dom would, because it's mechanic and unconscious, it's got a mind of its own. 

It makes me feel both alive and miserable, as unhealthy sx is basically insanity.


----------



## galactic collision

Still don't know what my instinct stacking is. Buh


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Kink said:


> @_Thaumaturgic Theorist_
> Hm, I think that with Sp as the dominant instinct, there can be some reservation about fully indulging the second instinct regardless, because of wanting to shield the self.
> 
> And now I'm finding myself reconsidering Sp/So or something too, albeit for different reasons. Sometimes I can get so caught up into how things seem to play into a... bigger picture, I guess. Would think that stuff would be easier to ignore if I was Social-last, but I dunno. :/


Well, I found some stuff that I think proves my so-middle more. Even though I have so little attunement to more typical so-instinct-things:


> SP/SX has a better tracking instinct for people's underbelly...sp/so generalizes people more.
> 
> 
> SP/SX has a volatile energy range...sp/so is very consistent.
> 
> 
> SP/SX fills out their surroundings with a more personal and refined touch...sp/so types clam up more when such opportunities present itself.





> Sp/So have typically a reserved, serious, formal and businesslike style without any sensuality. While Sp/Sx are independant above all, but have also a natural sensual, sexy and flirtatious side. They are serious too, but their style is more "I'm totally open about intensity as long as I still in comfort". And are not especially turned to the larger sphere like Sp/So who seek support from it for safety.


Some traits describing a person's friend who turned out to be sp/so:


> -Formal with those she doesn't know well.
> -Not very interested in relationships. She's 26 and has never had a boyfriend..have to take things very slowly.
> -Doesn't like being touched by others..likes her own space.
> -Business-oriented
> -Dresses modestly
> -Likes routine and hates change..prefers boring over exciting.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Double post.



Hotaru said:


> I'm just a ball of awkward who won't budge for whatever reason.


"Ball of awkward" is my new favorite phrase.



> @_Thaumaturgic Theorist_ I can see you as sp/sx as usually sp tends to cage any other instinct and make it messy and more painful, I see some craving of deep connections and yet a lot of fear of intimacy. But I don't know you all that well, instincts can be hard to pinpoint because behavior, personal experience and neurosis can make everything harder, I crave anything sx, passionate and intense but I'm also stiff as a board when it does shine bright like a diamond in the sky on its own. I can't exactly control nor conceal it, like a sp-dom would, because it's mechanic and unconscious, it's got a mind of its own.
> 
> It makes me feel both alive and miserable, as unhealthy sx is basically insanity.


Yeah, I've been wondering lately how much my social fears (as in social interaction) mask my real personality. How much of my behavior is actually just a defensive fear reaction, rather than a personality preference? If I were less afraid to speak out loud and didn't look for an escape whenever people try to talk to me, how different would my personality appear? There's also the very unfortunate fact that I have less information to go on than most others when examining my personality: namely, I can't tell you how I behave with people because all I really have to go on are service interactions (which isn't much) and family (we hate each other, so that's only really good for examining stress responses) Can't tell you how I am with friends since I have basically none in meatspace. The few times I have had real, short-lived friendships, I was still uncomfortable and literally no one saw much of anything resembling....I don't want to say my true self, maybe my real thoughts. 

I'm not comfortable with anyone when it comes to social interaction. I've never had a face-to-face conversation with anyone other than my mother. I am most definitely not comfortable in social settings - I'm that person who stands in the corner and watches everyone creepily. 

I will say one thing: if I must interact, I actually slightly prefer groups over one-on-one. There's less pressure in a group. There's always someone who can compensate for my awkwardness and no single person is responsible for carrying the conversation. When it's just you and the other person, if you both have nothing to say, it can get too awkward. 

Whether my middle is so or sx (looking more and more like the former, as indicated above), my sp's got it locked up good.


----------



## Paradigm

@Thaumaturgic Theorist
Bolded the ones I relate to as SP/SX.



> *SP/SX has a better tracking instinct for people's underbelly*...sp/so generalizes people more.
> *SP/SX has a volatile energy range...sp/so is very consistent*.
> SP/SX fills out their surroundings with a more personal and refined touch...*sp/so types clam up more when such opportunities present itself*.


- I think part of this is being 614 in my case, but the "underbelly" of people for me is nothing -- it's easy to see and deal with. It can include anything from "flaws" to "quirks." Though when I say "deal with," a lot of the time that means cutting them out of my life if it's primarily flaws... Quirks are very often no big deal, I rarely see them as weird even.

- This is meh, I can go both ways with this. Age tempers a lot of volatility, IMO. When I was younger (18-22), my friends were kinda freaked out about how I'd react to some things. Plus tbh I've spent the better part of my life honing a neutral expression _on purpose_.

- I'm not very creative, and I'm very hesitant anymore to show my preferences (or attempts) since they tend to get mocked. Part of being introverted, I suspect, but mostly just being burned. I do tend to go with things that "feel right" on an unexplainable abstract level.



> Sp/So have typically a reserved, serious, formal and businesslike style without any sensuality. *While Sp/Sx are independant above all, but have also a natural sensual, sexy and flirtatious side. They are serious too, but their style is more "I'm totally open about intensity as long as I still in comfort".* And are not especially turned to the larger sphere like Sp/So who seek support from it for safety.


This is very accurate for me as SP/SX.



> *-Formal with those she doesn't know well.*
> -Not very interested in relationships. She's 26 and has never had a boyfriend..have to take things very slowly.
> *-Doesn't like being touched by others..likes her own space.*
> -Business-oriented
> *-Dresses modestly*
> -Likes routine and hates change..prefers boring over exciting.


- I'm not very good at socializing. Formal would work as an description. I usually go with "cordial."
- Relationships and I are complicated, I'm going to skip this altogether.
- Seriously don't touch me unless you're one of My People. And I have like, two People, so practically everyone is off-limits. 
- I'm very much the opposite of business-oriented, really. I don't understand anything businessy.
- I try to blend in with the background, so I dress modestly and in neutral colors usually. 
- Eh. I don't like _sudden _change, but I don't really enjoy routine either.



> I will say one thing: if I must interact, I actually slightly prefer groups over one-on-one. There's less pressure in a group. There's always someone who can compensate for my awkwardness and no single person is responsible for carrying the conversation. When it's just you and the other person, if you both have nothing to say, it can get too awkward.


Me too, actually :laughing: This is a good way to explain why I prefer small groups. I can't handle groups of over four additional people, but anything til then is great. It means I can zone out without being "picked on" to socialize for ages  

Even in groups, though, I end up being somewhat of the outsider and "lone wolf" (for lack of a better term). I'll easily ignore the dynamics and end up doing my own thing more often than not, without much regard for the others. I'll also very often focus on one person in the group, the one I feel safest with (being 6, and ostracized often in the past).

I do think most variant descriptions are geared towards the non-triangle types. For 3/6/9 it's a little trickier, since we're so-called "Attachment" types and have a certain orientation towards people that the other six types don't.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

@_Paradigm_ Figured I might as well explain myself as a contrast:



> SP/SX has a better tracking instinct for people's underbelly...*sp/so generalizes people more.*
> SP/SX has a volatile energy range...*sp/so is very consistent*.
> *SP/SX fills out their surroundings with a more personal and refined touch...sp/so types clam up more when such opportunities present itself.*


- I'm not that great at tracking people, not as far as I know. I'm a bit more of a generalizer. 
- Maybe it's age, maybe it's fear, maybe I just haven't found anything to really get me going, but I'd say my energy level is pretty consistent. 
- Torn here in that Sp/So describes what I am externally - Sp/Sx is what I'd more like to be. I tend to shut up instead for similar reasons to you - a fear of being mocked. Though, perhaps it's a Nine thing. I have preferences, but I'm either too lazy to implement them, or to afraid to say anything. 




> *Sp/So have typically a reserved, serious, formal and businesslike style without any sensuality. *While Sp/Sx are independant above all, but have also a natural sensual, sexy and flirtatious side. They are serious too, but their style is more "I'm totally open about intensity as long as I still in comfort". And are not especially turned to the larger sphere like Sp/So who seek support from it for safety.


See, the thing is this describes me much better than Sp/Sx. I do not have anything resembling a "natural sensual, sexy, and flirtatious side."




> -*Formal with those she doesn't know well. *
> -*Not very interested in relationships. *She's 26 and has never had a boyfriend..have to take things very slowly.
> -*Doesn't like being touched by others..likes her own space*.
> -*Business-oriented*
> -*Dresses modestly*
> -Likes routine and hates change..prefers boring over exciting.


- Absolutely yes. And I've been that way my entire life. I'm totally casual and laid back online, but as soon as I meet the person IRL I pull inward and become all kinds of reserved and careful. It's backfired on me a few times, too....
- Well, I'm 20 and just gained an interest in relationships - things happened I'd best not discuss, but they don't seem to mix with me either. And I do take things _incredibly_ slowly (though perhaps slow is relative given I was...um....involved with an Sx-lead...). What I've noticed though is I'm pretty indifferent to relationships - though once a person gets that close it's hard to let go. When I care, I really freaking care. And it takes a lot to make me stop caring.
- Yeah, not a fan of being touched, nor of having people encroach on my personal space.
- I checked this because it's actually very true of my interpersonal interactions. I don't know about anything businessy either, but what I think they might have meant by that is "focused on information exchanged rather than trading opinions or thoughts." Because that's about the only kind of discussion I can have with anyone, as much as I would like to be otherwise. As soon as a conversation starts drifting to what I think about something, what I want, what I like, I freak out and clam up. It's a confidence thing, I'm certain of it. I would love to have discussions with people besides online. Bet it's kind of terrifying for me, putting my thoughts out there verbally, so I end up like this instead.
- I don't like my wardrobe much, but I can't afford anything else. As of now I'm pretty plain and unremarkable.
- I tend to get stuck in routines, and I cope with change pretty well. I don't know if I can properly say I prefer boring over exciting, especially since those are such subjective terms.


I'm usually the outsider in groups myself, sticking with a few people I know, or keeping totally insular if I"m thrust into a totally new group. People have to approach me; me approaching them is out of the question.


----------



## Paradigm

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> - I checked this because it's actually very true of my interpersonal interactions. I don't know about anything businessy either, but what I think they might have meant by that is "focused on information exchanged rather than trading opinions or thoughts." Because that's about the only kind of discussion I can have with anyone, as much as I would like to be otherwise. As soon as a conversation starts drifting to what I think about something, what I want, what I like, I freak out and clam up. It's a confidence thing, I'm certain of it. I would love to have discussions with people besides online. Bet it's kind of terrifying for me, putting my thoughts out there verbally, so I end up like this instead.


This stood out to me the most, as it's not really what I'm like at all. Sharing information is great as a starting point (formality, springboard, etc.), but I'm way more interested in opinions, thoughts, feelings... The subjective stuff, the stuff that makes you _you_. Even IRL, I'll drift to those subjects, though I'm very much the "silent one" when conversation is verbal. I'm very interested in the minutia of people, or at least of the people I choose to expend energy for -- which is few, no doubt, since I have _very _limited people-energy.



> I don't know if I can properly say I prefer boring over exciting, especially since those are such subjective terms.


Yeah, you're completely right, they are subjective. I find cars boring, other people love 'em. It's not for me, or anyone, to say what is "objectively" boring, since there's no such thing. It's that sort of anti-SJ mentality, isn't it, wherein people need to prove they're "so omg not that, I'm not that *insert disgust* common." 



> I'm usually the outsider in groups myself, sticking with a few people I know, or keeping totally insular if I"m thrust into a totally new group. People have to approach me; me approaching them is out of the question.


Yeah, same. But social anxiety and, as you said, confidence, is a huge factor too. And other stuff, like introversion. (It's common for all those factors, and more, to cause mistypes.) Where does your energy go when you're in a group you know well? 

Have you read this? THE Resource Thread for Instinctual Variants and Stackings, post #2, and #3


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## ScientiaOmnisEst

Paradigm said:


> This stood out to me the most, as it's not really what I'm like at all. Sharing information is great as a starting point (formality, springboard, etc.), but I'm way more interested in opinions, thoughts, feelings... The subjective stuff, the stuff that makes you _you_. Even IRL, I'll drift to those subjects, though I'm very much the "silent one" when conversation is verbal. I'm very interested in the minutia of people, or at least of the people I choose to expend energy for -- which is few, no doubt, since I have _very _limited people-energy.


It's not necessarily that I'm not interested - I can listen to people discuss something of interest for ages - it's more a fear of having to share my own personal stuff. Really, as soon as people start bringing that kind of stuff out, I start planning my escape. 



> Yeah, same. But social anxiety and, as you said, confidence, is a huge factor too. And other stuff, like introversion. (It's common for all those factors, and more, to cause mistypes.) Where does your energy go when you're in a group you know well?


I almost said I can't remember, and for the most part I can't. The closest I've come...there was usually one or two people in the group I was especially close to and sort of fell back on, sticking with them for security purposes, and, I admit, to feel less lost. So where does my energy go - it mostly stays inward, occasionally directed at a few people at a time. 

I think that's just introversion though.



> Have you read this? THE Resource Thread for Instinctual Variants and Stackings, post #2, and #3


Yes I have, that was what initially convinced me that I was a so-last. But now I'm wondering if I may have confused So-last with social incompetence/inexperience (I can't really call it social anxiety. I've read about what social anxiety really is and that's not me. I'm not that extreme).


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## Paradigm

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> It's not necessarily that I'm not interested - I can listen to people discuss something of interest for ages - it's more a fear of having to share my own personal stuff. Really, as soon as people start bringing that kind of stuff out, I start planning my escape.


I didn't mean to imply you weren't interested, sorry. It's just that the stuff you mentioned avoiding, I embrace, whether I'm the one talking about it or they are. Exchanging information is okay, but exchanging of the selves is everything. 



> Yes I have, that was what initially convinced me that I was a so-last. But now I'm wondering if I may have confused So-last with social incompetence/inexperience (I can't really call it social anxiety. I've read about what social anxiety really is and that's not me. I'm not that extreme).


I'm leaning SP/SO for you  But maybe like me, your middle instinct is weaker than most people's. Instincts can be hard to gauge.


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## Kisshoten

Chesire Tower said:


> You know, this sounds an awful lot like 5, especially 5w4: enigmatic in expressions, not wanting to be seen.


I've a 9w1 INFP engage in that pattern repeatedly with me. It is annoying as hell, but I know not to use my Fe with him. 

Point being, I'm not so sure it's a 5 thing. Could be a "withdrawn" thing.


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## Sygma

Vergil said:


> lol...
> 
> No. Spend a little more time.


Haha, fair enough, but I'll still call you in an absolutely non serious and sweet way ... Rude !


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## Kisshoten

Sygma said:


> Haha, fair enough, but I'll still call you in an absolutely non serious and sweet way ... Rude !


daww :3


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## sittapygmaea

Maybe this post doesn't belong here, but... today several factors have led me to be irritable about the whole notion that people belong to certain well-defined "types." Don't get me wrong; I wholeheartedly believe that typological theories are useful tools; they can pull into the foreground certain otherwise invisible patterns in behavior and thought, force one to reflect on one's owns predispositions and motives, and help increase understanding of oneself and others. 

Yet the tone of credulity and oversimplification that seems to dominate a great deal of type-related discussion is extremely grating. First there is this notion of unassailable, objective truth in typing. Person p must be a 2 or a 4, and there is a fact about which type they are, available for discovery if only a search is sufficiently diligent. Second, there is the tendency to overestimate the explanatory power of type, as if a person's every tic and fetish is a product of their "type." Both of these impulses unhelpfully obscure the incredible grey areas, the ambiguity, and the unrelated factors (like gender, culture, birth order, socio-economic status, trauma, etc.) that may play a large role in personality and personality development. Three frequently observed ills related to these issues are typism, aggressive claims of authority, and sweeping generalizations. (E.g., you just don't realize that all INTJs hate INFPs; I'm here to tell you that @Pigdog can't be a 5 because 5s are never so outgoing...). 

When the subtlety is lost, the value of these systems drains away along with my interest in them. They are not very instructive as blunt force instruments. *End of peevishness*


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## Paradigm

Sygma said:


> So ... let's be honest I really don't know much about Enneagram but here are the results :
> Your main type is Type 4
> 4	19 I must be unique/different to survive.
> 2	18 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
> 7	17 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
> 8	15 I must be strong and in control to survive.
> 9	13 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.
> 3	12 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
> 5	11 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
> 6	9 I must be secure and safe to survive.
> 1	2 I must be perfect and good to survive.
> sx/sp/so
> I take it ... 4w2 ?  feel free to correct me if you think its wrong tho


Here you go: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/134439-introduction-enneagram.html


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## Paradigm

sittapygmaea said:


> Yet the tone of credulity and oversimplification that seems to dominate a great deal of type-related discussion is extremely grating. First there is this notion of unassailable, objective truth in typing. Person p must be a 2 or a 4, and there is a fact about which type they are, available for discovery if only a search is sufficiently diligent. Second, there is the tendency to overestimate the explanatory power of type, as if a person's every tic and fetish is a product of their "type." Both of these impulses unhelpfully obscure the incredible grey areas, the ambiguity, and the unrelated factors (like gender, culture, birth order, socio-economic status, trauma, etc.) that may play a large role in personality and personality development.


Yes, I agree. There's an overwhelming push to objectify these typology systems, which inherently ignores the nuances. By ignoring the nuances, you ignore the makeup of any one person. At some point you realize, it's not the type that matters too much, but the factors separate from type.

It's the easy way to "understanding," so most people take it. Or they feel like without this "objectivity," it's a useless tool. It's almost like there's no middle ground for most people -- that being, willing to talk about types but acknowledging it only goes so far. (But then, I guess pinpointing "how far" it goes is subjective as well.)


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## ScientiaOmnisEst

Paradigm said:


> I didn't mean to imply you weren't interested, sorry. It's just that the stuff you mentioned avoiding, I embrace, whether I'm the one talking about it or they are. Exchanging information is okay, but exchanging of the selves is everything.
> 
> 
> I'm leaning SP/SO for you  But maybe like me, your middle instinct is weaker than most people's. Instincts can be hard to gauge.


I see. By contrast, sharing of the selves is just...frightening for me. When I'm doing at least. That's the problem.

Yeah, my middle instinct is definitely weak. When I first took a few instinct tests, Sp would be obviously dominant, while So and Sx were almost equally low. I think hanging out with a bunch of Sx-doms started to make me think I was better at that instinct that I really am.


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## Paradigm

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> I see. By contrast, sharing of the selves is just...frightening for me. When I'm doing at least. That's the problem.


Well, I mean, I'm hesitant too, but I suspect I put more value in it than you might. (I know this is just guessing, sorry -- I'm not trying to put words into your mouth.) Like, I'm being serious when I say that self-sharing _is everything_, it's the lifeblood of relationships for me. It's so very specific to few people, and I don't keep up the energy required for half as long as people with stronger SX do, but it's very very important to me.

I'm also incredibly awkward with sharing my inner self, but, well... I'm INTJ, and plus I've had so, so many bad experiences growing up when I've shared such. It's a natural progression to be awkward and hesitant. That doesn't mean I don't find value or lack a need for it.

Honestly, what you said reminded me of my mom, who I think is probably SP/SO. We're very close and share many things with each other. But there's this sort of... "transparent wall" that comes up when conversations get too self-oriented for her. Her energy almost stops, whereas mine tends to become more prominent. I get excited and want to delve deeper, but she becomes quieter and avoidant regardless of who's doing the talking. And it's not that she's anti-emotion, either (which it could be said I am), because she encourages me to share how I'm feeling... But _that_ certain flavor of sharing just isn't natural for her.



> Yeah, my middle instinct is definitely weak. When I first took a few instinct tests, Sp would be obviously dominant, while So and Sx were almost equally low. I think hanging out with a bunch of Sx-doms started to make me think I was better at that instinct that I really am.


Yeah, that makes sense. When you're around a group of similar people, you tend to adopt some of their traits, or try to at least meet in the middle. (General you, btw.) I see it happen a lot with me and my group of friends, actually xD


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## sittapygmaea

@Hotaru



Hotaru said:


> Mind that I wrote all of that while not overly focused and right now I'm even less so but you raise a lot of interesting points as it's extremely easy for me to spot the obvious mistypes, the glaring kind that jumps you in a dark alley at 2 am, but generally appearances can be deceiving and I'd rather hold back any judgment until I know a person closely enough to make a statement. It's easier with MBTI/cognitive functions because no matter how you try to use a function, your actual ones come out regardless and having been through ridiculous delusions myself, I can understand the mechanics but even enneagram core fears and attitudes can emerge violently if you interact with someone deeply enough and observe their patterns. I think I built a massive Six radar by now and I can recognize most image types quite quickly, even more so because 2s give off certain vibes that make me instantly hostile and clammy.
> 
> That said, I'd rather have others ask me for a typing because I firmly believe that forcing your opinion on someone and flaunting that you can read them better than themselves is not only annoying as hell and leading to lack of research and mistakes but also not helpful in the slightest to that individual's self journey, even more so as their essence is going to remain the same unless they're the ones seeking an answer. But I like you so I wanted to give you my impression that I still need to define, I could be extremely off.


Because of the uncertainty/trepidation suggested in the first two paragraphs, I'd like to reiterate that I solicited your feedback, and am grateful that you are providing it. :kitteh: I also appreciate that you are working from limited information about me, as well as within other constraints. It's an organic process, and I'm not interested in bickering about minutia or trying to catch you in a misjudgment. I'm really just interested in having a conversation about it and, hopefully, gaining new insight into myself and my behavior. 

I am genuinely curious about how others see me and why. I am interested in the impression and the vibe I give off, and it is useful and interesting to get this the feedback even if I disagree with the description or take the person to be misrepresenting my behavior or misunderstanding its motives. Having said that, once one gets beyond impressionistic data, information or arguments would be necessary to convince me of a different core type or trifix than I have considered thus far, if only because I have thought about the matter at great length and have considered reasons for my current self-typing (as well, of course, as a lot more data about myself to work with). 

Also, though, I want to repeat explicitly that you should not feel obligated to pursue this matter beyond your own interests and resources. I'm endlessly curious about myself as well as something of a bulldog once I sink my teeth into something, so I'm _very_ unlikely to let the conversation idle of my own accord. So, fair warning: for god's sake, woman- save yourself by jumping off the ship when you're ready to stop lest I take you down with me :wink:



Hotaru said:


> When I say lighthearted, I don't mean in a bubbly or overly optimistic way but more in a peaceful and serene kind of way, there's a certain penchant for suffering and spite in Fours that I don't see in you as you're extremely gentle and often above the parts, it's very nurturing and humble in a genuine way although I can definitely see a strong 4w5 fix in you, I have no doubts that's your heart type. I can see a 6 core working well too as you're very cerebral, very mentally quick and needing to discuss your opinions in a way you can relate them to other experiences while maintaining your own self and values and there's a more controlled emotional depth...


This is such a lovely description, and it tickles me to think that I might feel peaceful, gentle or serene to others because those traits usually have such a soothing effect. :kitteh: I certainly don't feel peaceful, but it's nice to think that I may seem so to others. I just asked my husband (here sitting next to me in the evening): "do I seem peaceful to you?" He responded, after a diplomatic pause: "well, you certainly seem more peaceful now than you used to before you started taking your (anti-anxiety) meds" :dry: 

My family (and my husband), pretty much everyone who has ever lived with me, describes me as volatile and moody. I am not at all spiteful, though. Most people would also describe me as a very kind person. I often get complements about that. And the anti-anxiety meds actually do help me let my kindness out. If I'm in an emotional meltdown or anxiety induced panic-state, I am too overwhelmed by myself to notice anyone else. I can only become genuinely aware of other people when I'm not in too much of an internal frenzy. 

Whether it derives from my enneagram type or something else, I have always been incredibly empathetic and sympathetic. I don't mind pain as much for myself, but I can't stand it for others, since I was a young child. My aversion to causing others pain combines with my empathy/sympathy to make me very kind, gentle, and accepting of others (for the most part). I was always very very withdrawn but would become uncharacteristically aggressive when others were bullied or belittled in school. Not out of a sense of moral duty, just out of instinct. 



Hotaru said:


> *When you said that you feel one emotion at a time and you analyze it thoroughly and detach from it*, I immediately thought that this was very head type like as in most heart cores emotions are a waterfall whether they're externalized (type 2), two-sided (type 3) or very internal (type 4), a Fi-dom who's also a heart type tends to perceive them in a more natural way, they're constantly flowing and guiding every action and analyzing is something that happens only when they decreased their intensity or they're drying up but of course this is just my own experience and even then, it's hard to structure it in a descriptive way objectively connected to the typing system.


Re: the bolded point, above,... I think you have someone else in mind? I never said that I feel one emotion at a time and analyze it and detach from it. I have a vague memory of reading this in someone else's posting recently, though I can't remember exactly where.


I used the following system to indicate the parts of the tritype descriptions that I identify with: most (bold), partially (italics) and not really (underline). I just left as is parts I wasn't sure about/didn't understand what the description was getting at or seemed otherwise superfluous. I also added 459 and 451 at the bottom with the same treatment, because those were my initial tritype options from self-typing. I put the whole thing in a spoiler because it just got too long and distracting. Conclusions follow below, which is probably the only part of interest. 


* *




"If you are 469, you are _intuitive_, *inquisitive* and _accepting_. You want to be *original*, _certain and peaceful_. *You are a very sensitive and can experience intense feelings of self-doubt and uncertainty*. _As a result you need multiple sources of confirmation_. *You want to be individualistic* but can fear being separate from others.

_Your life mission is to raise the questions pertaining to the mysteries of life and share your findings with others_. *A true seeker, you are happiest when you feel you can answer the question of who you are.*

*You can be so focused on your feelings, insecurities and doubts that you can feel paralyzed by the fear of making the wrong decision *and of being misled or duped.


The 469 is *a seeker with a lot of self doubt. There is always more to learn* when you are this tritype but the desire is to develop a philosophy. the 6 and 4 have the most self doubt along with the 9. The 4 doubts their feelings, the 6 their thoughts. 6s want reassurance, 4s want praise to offset their natural tendency to be shame sensitive. The 4 leading is *more concerned with the Who am I question and hopes to 'someday' have that answered through constant introspection and referencing their own feelings*. I can only speak from my own lens and say that the 6 leading is less identity focused. Who Am I doesn't enter the picture like the 4, and less reliance on needing to set themselves apart to resolve the philosophical dilemma.

...the 6 will stereotypically give 469 some sort of orientation around associations to ease anxiety...469 will have more of a push-pull reaction pattern with authority in staving off inner anxiety.

The 9 or 4 with the 469 tritype has the 3 types that feel doubt. Doubt breeds insecurity which increases anxiety. The gift of this tritype is the ability to *search for meaning. What begins as doubt ultimates brings a great deal of knowledge that can lead to greater understanding.*

The sx 469s want the security of that comes with a trusted relationship. Grief can feel overwhelming and many have shared feeling flooded. They also report that grief brings up fear.

Both the 469 and 269 tend to be passive. The 269 is more engraciating. The 469 is more _aloof_.

The 469 is *very gentle unless threatened.They are very out of touch with their gut! The struggle is with doubt and inaction*.

If 6 is dominant in the 469 tritype, there are more obvious fears and concerns. However, 946 and 469 are equally troubled by insecurities.
All 3 types have a little *paralysis through analysis*. And all 3 hate conflict. ) The 469 *experiences extreme self doubt and hesitates *more than other 4s. It is a shy 4 but they do have their own opinions...they are just reluctant to voice them. The 649 has the greatest difficulty trusting their own thoughts and tends to seek multiple confirmations before making decisions. The 964 is *plagued with indecision too* and can look like a 6 but they are not as inclined to seek opinions from others. They just avoid the conflict hoping it will resolve itself.

The 469 is the most doubting tritype regardless which type is in charge. It is also the tritype that most struggles with a constant sense of self. They can also be somewhat passive. The only tritype more passive is the 269. The 269 is happier in presentation.

Regarding doubt for the 469: I think Katherine said that the 4 has self-doubt, the 6 doubts themselves and others and the 9 has the believer/doubter dichotomy.

the 649 (or 469 964) want peace _harmony_ and *gentleness*. *They are sensitive *and doesn't know what to trust and in particular doesn't know what to trust in themselves. She stated that the 6 is more often than not phobic and needs multiple sources of confirmation and information. They don't feel they can rebound from emotional pain so they tend to avoid it *through the questioning process and end up finding more questions*."

145 – The Researcher Archetype

Both the 451 and 459 are *reserved and introspective and self conscious*. The 451 is *very critical of themselves* and others.They are very particular and have a lot of shoulds. _They can be strident. Dissatisfaction is visible as their energy can be prickly._ The 459 is more reserved and passive. They wait to be included. They are approachable but hope that others will come towards them. *They are quiet in their demeanor. They project a sense of stillness.* Their energy is soft and yielding. _Dissatisfaction is hidden _like in the 479.

out of 458/459/451 I'd guess that both 459 and 451 would seem more 5-like (or, more accurately, be more likely to be mis-typed as 5) than 458.

478 and 451 are very different types of 4. The 478 is intensely individualistic and more assertive whereas the 451 is *individualistic but much more introspective and reserved*. The 478 is somewhat optimistic and focuses more on the need for inspiration than the 451. The 451 is more particular and is more motivated by gathering meaningful information that is useful.

451 is the most 5ish 4. Rational and scientific.

451 - *knowledgeable and discerning* 4. Most intellectual 4, especially if social subtyle of with a 5 wing. Likes to teach.


The 415's I know are most capable of intellectual circumspection with a twist of the romantic and mysterious. They seem to balance out the emotional realm with the intellectual, but sometimes my 415 friends can be overly critical and defiant of any thing that is stereotypical or oppressive that could impact their search for an ideal mate...Another thing about the 415s I know is they are very perfectionist, overly sensitive to any perceived stereotyping, and an academically-minded four, but *they never quite feel self-satisfied or finished, sometimes falling into long states of procrastination...They have an amazing ability to dissect their own emotions rationally...*

Think Frustration (1-4) meets Competence (1-5) meets Withdrawing (4-5)and you get a rather persnickety perfectionist who needs plenty of downtime. On the high side what they produce can be of unparalleled depth and beauty.

out of 458/459/451 I'd guess that both 459 and 451 would seem more 5-like (or, more accurately, be more likely to be mis-typed as 5) than 458.

459 The Contemplative Archetype

459

If you are 459 is described as being _intuitive_, *knowledgeable, an accepting*. You want to be *original, wise* and _peaceful_. *Highly self aware and reflective, you are very shy, reserved and self conscious. You need regular quiet time to reflect on your thoughts and emotions. Easily flooded with emotion, it is difficult for you to voice your feelings and ideas to others.
*
_Your life mission is to delve deeply into the mysteries of life and share your insight with others_. A true philosopher (also, contemplative), *you are happiest when you can write about your discoveries and discuss them with others. Making sense of your world is a never ending quest*.

*You can be so focused on your inner world that you can become inhibited* and _appear to be indifferent to others_. _Insecure, you become moody and expect others to initiate and come toward you_.

your growing edge is to recognize that *your need to pull away into the private world of your making to ponder your thoughts and feelings keeps you from engaging with others*. true contemplation leads to higher knowing that we are all connected in the universal unconscious.

*Most withdrawn/introspective-459, 954, 549

The 416, 459 and 469 all struggle with *painful self-consciousness and inhibition*.

Both the 451 and 459 are *reserved and introspective and self conscious*. The 451 is *very critical of themselves* and others.They are very particular and have a lot of shoulds. _They can be strident. Dissatisfaction is visible as their energy can be prickly. _The 459 is more reserved and passive. They wait to be included. They are approachable but hope that others will come towards them. *They are quiet in their demeanor. They project a sense of stillness.* Their energy is soft and yielding. Dissatisfaction is hidden like in the 479.

The 954 is more contemplative and the the 952 will be more focused on others.

9s have a great capacity for depth, they just avoid conflict. Introspective 9s with 5 in the tritype are the intellectual 9s. (9s with 4 are the deep, emotional 9s. The 9 with the 459 tritype is all of the above.

The 459 is the most reclusive type on the Enneagram. They are humble, modest and discreet. They can be ethereal and dreamy They are passive and unassertive. They are shy but usually display a pleasant countenance. *They have complex inner worlds. the objective with the subjective. They are gentle, sensitive *and avoidant. Since they are so reserved, they express their anger in a passive-aggressive manner.

459 is a triple withdrawn...I imagine 459 to be more *removed and cut off as a way of addressing any inner anxiety*.

Yeah you would have a difficult time with the triple withdrawn 459, many people do because their withdrawal and withholding feels harsh or very uninvolved. That's the type most likely to not realize their anger until much later, or not express it at all because they *get stuck in not expressing themselves and experiencing everything more internally*. The 1 in your tritype makes you more likely to exprsss discontent or negativity while the 7 still wants to keep things light and airy. The 459 *can have a heavy feeling* which can be daunting to someone desiring to keep things positive and productive as your tritype or the 371 might be inclined to do.

A 459 would be *pretty comfortable with separateness and solitude.*
[459]: Differences with 469 comes from the differences between 5 and 6 minds. 5 is like a withdrawn mind working alone to handle situations, life, and understanding, while 6 is more oriented to connections with collectivity and other people with thoughts. It's a receptive/expressive mind, using people as support for understanding and guidance. While 5 is more working alone, with its own maps and ideas.

As for the 4 5 9 part, ..It speaks to me, because it points to the actual awareness of the lack of love and the feeling of separateness for a 9. 5s and 4s are normally described as having the experience most rooted in separateness. Perhaps the distinctions are finer though. 5s representing a feeling of separateness of self, 4 representing separateness of identity, and 9 representing an awareness of separateness from "love" or from the "whole" of the universe.

all three Reflective Solutions Enneacards
(Enneagram Types: 4, 5 & 9) in your Enneaspread.
Naturally reserved and reflective, you see yourself as intuitive, *introspective, perceptive and thoughtful*. Responsible and diligent, *you resist taking action that is not first well considered and thought out*. *You dislike making sudden changes and prefer to take time to think things through before acting. When opposed, you tend to take a step back or move away from others to evaluate your circumstances to manage problems*.
4-5-9 - The Introvert

A true introvert. The withdrawn* likes to delve within them self in order to release their tensions and stress. The more problems that arise in their life the farther the find themselves from the external world.*

459 - Knowledgeable and accepting 4. Most withdrawn and introspective 4, often an artisan, especially if self-preserving. Shy.

4-5-9 would rely on their sensations completely. This makes them the most self-focused of the types. Its about what you experience. Like a 9, they tend to avoid things they find uncomfortable (the keyword here is what they find uncomfortable. Not what is generally accepted as uncomfortable). Like a 5, tend to lean towards enrichment. And like a 4, establish their identity towards what they live through. Naturally, what we personally experience in ourselves (our emotions) are a part of what we experience. Since this type is so internally focused, *they tend to live the most in their own minds and their own world*. Thus, their five-fix *tends to gather a lot of information on themselves*. Their four-fix and ever changing sensations may make them slightly more likely to feel confused as to who they are. Experiencing this confusion, they may analyze this as a problem and perhaps something that shouldn't be(?). Well, like I said, I'd need to think about it more. But mainly, this fix relies heavily on what they go through and what they live through. Especially on feeling sensations. I'm not really quite sure on what else to say, really




The 469 and 649 descriptions both definitely have some elements I relate to very strongly. The things that ring most true have to do with anxiety, doubt, inquisitiveness, indecisiveness, 'paralysis by analysis,' the sense of always having more to learn, always seeking to understand, and being sensitive and introspective. Although I have a lot of doubt, I would say that I am _unsure_ of myself more than I _distrust_ myself. The things that ring most false from the 469/649 descriptions are the collectivism and trust issues: needing to check with a lot of other people before deciding, not trusting themselves or others, having issues (positive and negative) with authority, and being afraid to be separated from others. 

The things that makes me feel _not sixish_ are all these trust-authority-belonging/standing-in-the-group issues. I just don't really have these, and they are more constitutive of 6, as I understand it than anxiety and doubt. In fact, it seems like the anxiety and doubt actually stem _from_ these more fundamental issues. I definitely have a lot of anxiety and doubt, but mine _*doesn't*_ relate to these issues. I think it derives from having an anxiety order which lacks a purely psychological-development explanation.

I've been running into this in thinking about the instincts too: there are many psychological factors at play in my personality that do not stem from my enneagram type although they have a very strong influence on my general personality, self-presentation and hangups. The big one, in this context, is my anxiety disorder. Anxiety disorders and OCD run in my family and are present in my grandparents through nieces and nephews. I have one for sure (anxiety not ocd in my case) and this proclivity towards anxiety, indecisiveness, and self-doubt most definitely influences my dispositions. It deeply affects my thought processes and I have adapted to these effects and internalized them over time. 

My anxiety is a very important part of my makeup, but I believe that it is derived more from physiological than personal-psychological motivations as it in the case of the 6. The subjects that consume the lion's share of my anxiety are the same subjects that get all my focus: understanding myself and the world around me, and expressing/presenting myself. The reason is purely statistical. Thus I believe the anxiety disorder is a bit of a confounding factor for identifying my enneagram type. The behavior, even the internal thoughts, may look 6ish but the reasons for them are _very_ different. 

The sort of indecisiveness, anxiety, and certain forms of paralytic self-doubt I have are common to many members of my family with very different personality types including my father (a three) and my sister (a 6) and my grandmother (probably a 1, though I can't say for sure; I didn't interact with her much as an adult before she passed away). On the other hand, my mother (a 6) can have self doubt and anxiety in her fashion but they are a psychological disposition rather than a compulsive mental illness. Even though she's a 6, she seems like the least anxious person in our family! 

If you take out the anxiety/indecision/doubt/paralysis stuff, the other parts of the 469 descriptions that really ring true for me have to do with being very inquisitive, sensitive and introspective. But none have a necessary relation to type 6, and I really don't identify with the more basic 6 issues (with trust, authority, security). This is what leads me to reject 6 in my tritype, especially because I identify very very strongly with 5 descriptions in the head center. I don't identify with 8, and that leaves 9 and 1, and therefore 459 or 451 as my primary tritype options.

In terms of 459 vs 451 I'm genuinely unsure. I have points of resonance and dissonance with both tritypes, and with both 1 and 9 (though both are much much weaker than my feelings of resonance with types 4 and 5). E.g., I'm both slightly prickly and strident (451ish), and also somewhat peaceful and accepting (459ish). I'm both hyper-analytical and persnickety (451ish) and humble and vague/daydreamish (459ish). It all depends on the context. I wouldn't say I'm either very passive and unassertive (9) or self-righteous and preoccupied with shoulds (like a 1). I'd probably lean a little more to 9 than 1 but it's a real toss-up. I did the same bold/italics/underline routine with the 459 and 451 descriptions in the spoiler in case you're interested, but I think this is all intimately familiar to you from your own recent type-explorations.

****
In response to your suggestions and comments, I've tried to lay out _my own_ reasoning about my type more explicitly, but I'm very curious if these points change your feeling of my type-aura or not. I'm still not fully clear on your reasons for thinking 6 for me, so I may well have missed something salient in which case: please come back at me. 

As far as your thoughts on my type go, I always find at some point after I'm plowing through various details and trying to fit them together into a coherent whole, there comes a point when everything drains of significance. All the pieces I've been painstakingly rearranging look like a meaningless collection of details slapped together in a random configuration. If you find yourself at this point, please take a break. I'm happy to wait for more of the reflections you have been so generously sharing with me. 



Hotaru said:


> Tell me if it rings any bells.
> 
> I don't type on association but I'm a 459 and if you're a 649, your stating that we're very similar and yet I'm more airy, dark, ethereal and disconnected from reality while you're more gentle, intellectual, harmonic and anxious kinda makes a lot of sense.


A few last details on your comparisons: I know I described you as heavy and I would describe myself this way as well. I don't think I said you were 'disconnected from reality' (!) though I do think you feel more whimsical than I do. I also definitely find you to have a more ethereal, airy 'vibe,' even though you also feel 'heavy.' I feel both heaviness and ethereality in you, but more just heaviness in myself. Maybe the heaviness is a function of our struggling, disturbed affect and our engagement. I find these traits in both of us, while the ethereal quality you have and I lack perhaps has to do with my analytical detail-focus, which I see in you too, but much less. You seem to have a more intuitive and big picture and I seem more concrete and down in the weeds. 

We actually both described each other as 'gentle;' who is more? Maybe it's me; I could believe it though I don't have a strong feeling. I don't think I described myself as 'harmonic' though it's not far off. I like the general ambiance of personal interactions to feel gentle rather than harsh and hostile. I think this could be described as preferring an atmosphere of personal harmony, though intellectually and emotionally I like more sturm und drang. Harmony in those realms seem dull and makes life too flat and insipid. 

Damn; that took post me forever to finish. :shocked:


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

@Living dead
I'll join the others in saying, Who cares?

Not about you or your type, simply, who cares about the Soul Child and other concepts?? It's just one possible perspective, one framework which we can use to theoretically understand the movements and inner journey of each type. I relate to the 5's soul child a lot, and I now know I'm not a 5.

To me, it's like the instincts and tritype. One of those fads going around that suddenly everyone thinks determines something "key" about you, and it should be like a revelation, and you should identify with it utterly, and blablablah. I say it's there to help your inner explorations, not dictate to you what you are.

So, don't worry about it. Be cool. Do your work on the 2. Learn how your wings and arrows might influence you. Examine your cognitive functions. Keep a journal. Maybe one day you'll hit gold. Just don't worry about the lame stuff that goes around online. This journey is about YOU. Indulge in it. Have fun. Above all, don't ask me about the soul child, because I don't see the necessity of the theory.


----------



## DomNapoleon

I think @FreeBeer is a 9 fixed, not 8 fixed as he is typing right now. Can't explain why, just the vibe he gives. Also social first.


----------



## Darkbloom

The Typeless Wonder said:


> @Living dead
> I'll join the others in saying, Who cares?
> 
> Not about you or your type, simply, who cares about the Soul Child and other concepts?? It's just one possible perspective, one framework which we can use to theoretically understand the movements and inner journey of each type. I relate to the 5's soul child a lot, and I now know I'm not a 5.
> 
> To me, it's like the instincts and tritype. One of those fads going around that suddenly everyone thinks determines something "key" about you, and it should be like a revelation, and you should identify with it utterly, and blablablah. I say it's there to help your inner explorations, not dictate to you what you are.
> 
> So, don't worry about it. Be cool. Do your work on the 2. Learn how your wings and arrows might influence you. Examine your cognitive functions. Keep a journal. Maybe one day you'll hit gold. Just don't worry about the lame stuff that goes around online. This journey is about YOU. Indulge in it. Have fun. Above all, don't ask me about the soul child, because I don't see the necessity of the theory.


Yeah,I get it now,I was just doing a little research for the sake of typing someone else and I saw that soul child thing again and I was like "Yeah,that's kinda me,but there were kids so much worse than that" and then I remembered one little girl who went all 2's soul child on me when I was a kid and idk,it just got me confused.
Now I'm considering 4 again even if I don't relate to soul child other than liking others being punished by adults when I was little and myself being put above them as a good kid XD
But I think I should maybe stick to 2 because I REALLY think I have 5 and 9 yet am not triple withdrawn.
No one really told me what they think of a 5 fix for me,I think I get the idea though lol

Anyway,I'll try not to think about soul child anymore
It's just a big deal for me because I feel like I'm repressing my old self a lot,I'm ashamed of how things were even if they aren't really my fault yet at the same time I feel like I'm still so similar to how I was in the beginning,but in a different way.That's why I get a bit stuck on soul child


----------



## Chesire Tower

@Living dead, have patience; correct typing takes time; it can't be rushed. @Hotaru, I would love to hear you explanation of 5w4.



Hotaru said:


> That said, I'd rather have others ask me for a typing because I firmly believe that forcing your opinion on someone and flaunting that you can read them better than themselves is not only annoying as hell and leading to lack of research and mistakes but also not helpful in the slightest to that individual's self journey, even more so as their essence is going to remain the same unless they're the ones seeking an answer. But I like you so I wanted to give you my impression that I still need to define, I could be extremely off.



erc3:


I agree with that; other people can and should function as very helpful guides in leading you to find your way but only the individual who is being typed will 100% know if another person's typing of them makes sense or not.


----------



## Entropic

Living dead said:


> Not sure,combination of boredom and masochism maybe


The thing about the enneagram is to remember that it's actually not about to know your type in order to have another badge to wear on your chest though we all undoubtedly do this online because this is how the system is introduced to most of us (tests etc in order to figure out what another _type_ you are) as much as it's meant to be a tool for spiritual awakening. Knowing your type per se is therefore less relevant compared to being able to see who you are; identification with a type is the opopposite of being spiritually aware since identification with a type means to still cling to our outer shell of personality. The point is therefore to not care about the number as much as it's important to truly introspect and get a feeling for who you really are. When you begin to truly see yourself, you will find that it becomes less important to identify with your outer shell and that you can figure out your enneagram type because it's the personality structure that previously held you back from seeing yourself. The point is therefore to let go of our object relations. 

While it's also undoubtedly helpful to know your type and being able to discuss your particular type issues with others who share your experiences (pepersonally, I find that knowing I'm an 8 and talking about 8 stuff helps me to practice vulnerability for example, since I don't like to readily admit all the things related to type 8 as a personality structure as something I actually do, it shouldn't be because it gives you another reason to cling to who you think you are are; your type isn't you and never will be.


----------



## LibertyPrime

Mandraque said:


> I think @FreeBeer is a 9 fixed, not 8 fixed as he is typing right now. Can't explain why, just the vibe he gives. Also social first.


9 fix is possible yeah, tbh Idk about my gut fix :/ I'm a head type..I have horrible connection to my gut fix.

So first? o.o how do I explain Naranjo's description of the prussian social first then? (honestly curious in figuring this out.)


----------



## Entropic

@FreeBeer I would see them as separate and that the Prussian type isn't necessarily related to tritype. 

What do you think about anger? What makes you angry and why?


----------



## DomNapoleon

FreeBeer said:


> 9 fix is possible yeah, tbh Idk about my gut fix :/ I'm a head type..I have horrible connection to my gut fix.
> 
> So first? o.o how do I explain Naranjo's description of the prussian social first then? (honestly curious in figuring this out.)


Narranjo is so overrated. His descriptions need a review. Like he says sp 6s is more phobic and sx 6 is more cp. Bullshit. I have seen cp 6s who are sp/sx and my mother is a phobic six sx/so. So don't give much credit to him.


----------



## LibertyPrime

Entropic said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=16518" target="_blank">FreeBeer</a></i></span> I would see them as separate and that the Prussian type isn't necessarily related to tritype.
> 
> What do you think about anger?


Right now I think I'm depressed or something (very meh & numb), but usually my anger is sudden & I feel it very strongly. It goes away rather quickly as well. Day to day I'm mellow & friendly with no anger until something triggers it & then I start raising my voice (ppl usually say I'm yelling, but really I'm not), when I really get pissed I need to leave otherwise I'll start yelling (the kind that wakes up the entire street). Past this point if I'm backed into a corner I'll get physically violent.

My anger comes fast, goes fast, its like a rush & leaves me feeling guilty & embarrassed afterwards. Pretty much always feel like breaking shit.



> What makes you angry and why?


Mostly people who attempt to control, manipulate or limit me forcefully against my will & people who whine & bitch about stuff as if they were helpless. Learned helplessness :S and & weakness makes me angry. There is also injustice, stupidity & pain in general.

It starts in my stomach & goes into my head impairing my cognition :/..


----------



## Paradigm

Mandraque said:


> I think @FreeBeer is a 9 fixed, not 8 fixed as he is typing right now. Can't explain why, just the vibe he gives. Also social first.


I've been convinced for quite a while @FreeBeer is 6w7-4w3-1w2. Instincts, the way he describes himself is sx/sp -- but I'm not even half as convinced of that as I am of his tritype.


----------



## LibertyPrime

Paradigm said:


> I've been convinced for quite a while @FreeBeer is 6w7-4w3-1w2. Instincts, the way he describes himself is sx/sp -- but I'm not even half as convinced of that as I am of his tritype.


Well, I don't have a 9s disconnect from anger for sure & I kind of have good self control till I lose it (rarely, because its counterproductive to rage at people). I'll open a thread for this or can we use this one?


----------



## DomNapoleon

FreeBeer said:


> Well, I don't have a 9s disconnect from anger for sure & I kind of have good self control till I lose it (rarely, because its counterproductive to rage at people). I'll open a thread for this or can we use this one?


Maybe you should open a thread. But I worn you be honest with your answers! I've seen you doing this 6-ish thing of saying something and doing the exact opposite on you. So be wise. :th_wink:


----------



## Paradigm

FreeBeer said:


> Well, I don't have a 9s disconnect from anger for sure & I kind of have good self control till I lose it (rarely, because its counterproductive to rage at people). I'll open a thread for this or can we use this one?


Well, a thread would be better for you, but tbh I feel like I've said all I could about you being 1w2 fixed... Though it was a long time ago, it's still all the same stuff.

Edit: Plus I feel bad for correcting half of the stuff you say because I'm an annoying conscientious INTJ.


----------



## LibertyPrime

Mandraque said:


> Maybe you should open a thread. But I worn you be honest with your answers! I've seen you doing this 6-ish thing of saying something and doing the exact opposite on you. So be wise. :th_wink:


I'm inconsistently consistent.

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...eers-gut-fix-subtype-thread.html#post15294410



Paradigm said:


> Well, a thread would be better for you, but tbh I feel like I've said all I could about you being 1w2 fixed... Though it was a long time ago, it's still all the same stuff.
> 
> Edit: Plus I feel bad for correcting half of the stuff you say because I'm an annoying conscientious INTJ.


I'm emotionally blank atm. I need to be annoyed to feel something


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I understand that I'm a newbie and not many people know me well, but I would appreciate any expert advice anyone has on my type. Most people agree that it's 217 tritype and 2w1 core, but there are some debates and I'm always interested in what the most knowledgable typers have to say. 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/431298-i-identify-2-a.html

I also understand that it's a big time commitment to ask anyone to go through a thread and seek someone's true type. I would be grateful for even just a passing vibe suggestion; I don't need an in-depth analysis. I just want some smart opinions. 

I was also warned by Living dead that it may be hard for me to be typed based on this thread because I am a bit fresh to the forum, so I am very understanding if that's the case as well. 

Good luck with everyone's typing endeavors!


----------



## Golden Rose

@Chesire Tower and @sittapygmaea, I haven't forgotten about you.
I've been really busy with something and I'm extremely drained in the best way possible but I'll get back at you both.


----------



## sittapygmaea

there is no rush, lovely @Hotaru. please throw yourself into your present preoccupation and suck out all the pleasure you can. those don't arise every day, after all. :happy:




Hotaru said:


> @Chesire Tower and @sittapygmaea, I haven't forgotten about you.
> I've been really busy with something and I'm extremely drained in the best way possible but I'll get back at you both.


----------



## sittapygmaea

@Hotaru

I just came across a perfect example of what I am talking about when I say you feel whimsical: your comment on

http://personalitycafe.com/advice-center/478146-so-you-find-out-youre-defective-5.html

Your post was deadpan, clever, ridiculous and appropriate all at the same time. What made if feel especially whimsical was its occurrence in the middle of a long conversation with all the levity of a lead ball. There was this protracted thread of people struggling and arguing and worrying about something quite serious. Instead of diving in and swimming amidst all the heaviness and angst pinging around the thread (though I'm sure you relate to a lot of it), you tag the thread with your own banksy-esque signature. (I especially loved: "I'll pay you in birds.") 

This kind of behavior makes your overall vibe feel not _just_ heavy. There is heaviness and angst and struggle, to be sure, and it comes out directly in many of your posts, but there also this ethereal quality (flitting above the fray) as well as whimsy (seeing and showing the absurd amidst the angst). Totally charming, I must say.


----------



## Golden Rose

sittapygmaea said:


> @Hotaru
> 
> I just came across a perfect example of what I am talking about when I say you feel whimsical: your comment on
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/advice-center/478146-so-you-find-out-youre-defective-5.html
> 
> Your post was deadpan, clever, ridiculous and appropriate all at the same time. What made if feel especially whimsical was its occurrence in the middle of a long conversation with all the levity of a lead ball. There was this protracted thread of people struggling and arguing and worrying about something quite serious. Instead of diving in and swimming amidst all the heaviness and angst pinging around the thread (though I'm sure you relate to a lot of it), you tag the thread with your own banksy-esque signature. (I especially loved: "I'll pay you in birds.")
> 
> This kind of behavior makes your overall vibe feel not _just_ heavy. There is heaviness and angst and struggle, to be sure, and it comes out directly in many of your posts, but there also this ethereal quality (flitting above the fray) as well as whimsy (seeing and showing the absurd amidst the angst). Totally charming, I must say.


Whimsical was actually the one-word-description of myself I wanted to use in a questionnaire, I chose a different one but I'm almost tempted to change it as I feel like my whimsy is boundless, simply not the happy or fluffy kind. I'm glad that you noticed the sarcasm and appreciated the overall vibe of it, again deadpan, clever, ethereal are all things I strive to be and feel like are active part of me (I'd use those too, one word descriptions were never my favorite thing) but the darkness is very real and pulsating. 

I wanted to read the entire discussion and share my own impression and experience but I felt like it would've been redundant and I didn't feel like sharing so I chose irony over bleeding, at times I do. In real life it's almost always the case, as I'm a very intense and tormented person but it's not for everyone to see. Besides there's a saying in my native language that I actually love, it translates to "Laughter will bury us alive" and I find it very accurate, I don't exactly laugh much but I love mixing tragedy and snark, fusing them in a way that represents me wholly without throwing me to the wolves.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Ignore me. I am a dumbass.


----------



## Golden Rose

Sixty Nein said:


> Ignore me. I am a dumbass.


It's either one liners or long winded posts, there's no in between. *doesn't ignore you*


----------



## Sixty Nein

Well yeah. :I I wanted to at least check your posting history before I say that, but you are pretty damn long-winded here.


----------



## Golden Rose

Sixty Nein said:


> Well yeah. :I I wanted to at least check your posting history before I say that, but you are pretty damn long-winded here. Caustic and short spoken, until they have a chance to ramble on about nothing. Like a four normally is.
> 
> Not that I have a problem with it. I'm just in a sour mood.


No offense taken, just placing the dots on my Is as I drink myself out of boredom.
I disagree that it's about nothing but then again you're a gamma and a Six, if I recall correctly, so basically 'feels have cooties'.


----------



## Sixty Nein

Hotaru said:


> I disagree that it's about nothing but then again you're a gamma and a Six, if I recall correctly, so basically 'feels have cooties'.


Don't they though?


----------



## Golden Rose

Sixty Nein said:


> Don't they though?


Only when genitals are touching,


----------



## Sixty Nein

Hotaru said:


> Only when genitals are touching,


Thank god that I'm never going to do that.


----------



## sittapygmaea

Hotaru said:


> I*'m glad that you noticed the sarcasm *and appreciated the overall vibe of it, again deadpan, clever, ethereal are all things I strive to be and feel like are active part of me (I'd use those too, one word descriptions were never my favorite thing) but the darkness is very real and pulsating.
> 
> I wanted to read the entire discussion and *share my own impression and experience but I felt like it would've been redundant and I didn't feel like sharing so I chose irony over bleeding*, at times I do. In real life it's almost always the case, as I'm a very intense and tormented person but it's not for everyone to see. Besides there's a saying in my native language that I actually love, it translates to "Laughter will bury us alive" and I find it very accurate, I don't exactly laugh much but I love mixing tragedy and snark, fusing them in a way that represents me wholly without throwing me to the wolves.


Re: bolded part. Yes, it was an interesting choice for the thread. The ending made it feel especially whimsical but, unless I misread you (very possible), the first two little, innocent-seeming, off the cuff, cavalier and non-disclosive comments were actually quite the opposite. Since I'm familiar with you, I had to read the S or XS as a veiled reference to your eating disorders and the request for black a self-deprecating reference to you goth/emo/wallowing in suffering nature. To me it felt like, in a thread about personal flaws and defects you were showing some of your own. You *were* sharing albeit in a coded, self-referential way that looked like you weren't, and with an apparent levity that belied and offset the heft of your own painful self-regard. That was what I took from the comment, anyway.

What is your native language? Your facility with English is such that I cannot not discern any second-language tells.


----------



## Kintsugi

Okay, guys..

I think I might be a 1, not a 7?

Thoughts?

@_Hotaru_


----------



## Kisshoten

Kintsugi said:


> Okay, guys..
> 
> I think I might be a 1, not a 7?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> @_Hotaru_


Really? How come?


----------



## Golden Rose

Vergil said:


> Really? How come?


I think there's strong grounds for her to be either a strongly 1-fixed 7 or a strongly 7-fixed 1.
I'll write a post after I rest for a little while, together with my analysis of 5w4 for @Chesire Tower


----------



## Kintsugi

Vergil said:


> Really? How come?


I've always related to 1, to the point where I find it difficult to understand how (when typed as 7) I would _disintegrate _to 1, as I feel 1ish pretty much most of the time (and I'm not _that _unhealthy, I don't think.) 

Admittedly my understanding of Enneagram sucks, I have recently come to realize (can't type myself or others to save my life). I typed as 6 for a very long time before someone suggested 1 to me. Eventually I ended up settling on 7 after a few other people saw me this way. While I relate to a lot of the core 7 stuff I think, ultimately, my biggest issue has always been my unforgiving internal critic. When I talk about myself through the lens of 7 and say things like I'm "selfish" or "narcissistic", I've started to realize that this becomes another from of self criticism and a new opportunity for me to improve/perfect myself. I beat myself up, _a lot. _It seems as though my perception of myself is in some ways distorted as there is always something_ wrong_ and something that needs to be fixed, etc. 

Perhaps 7 is the way I want to see myself because it's closer to my idealized self?

Also, I'm super judgmental of others. Like, I have to stop myself preaching at people all the time, and I do get this addictive rush of adrenaline when I am in a position where I am lecturing about right/wrong or personal development. I think people who have spoken to me in private from this forum would agree that I love to rant and rave and pass judgement on the behavior and conduct on others. And, when I do see something that I consider to be wrong I cannot hold myself back from voicing my opinion. I feel things_ very_ passionately and deeply. I am 100% committed to developing myself and those around me. I find it hard to tolerate people who do not value this same thing and who I see as lacking in integrity. 

So...yeah. I'm kinda confused.


----------



## Golden Rose

@Kintsugi

The main reason I see you as 1 is because you seem to envelop a lot of the characteristics of this type and you strongly remind me of @TheProphetLaLa who's also a SEE and whom I mistyped as core 7 when I had huge misconceptions of what a type 1 actually is. Both types value honesty and directness, as well as 4 as they're all part of the negative triad and have strong links to each other, but type 7 is more focused on the Epicurean side of life that doesn't necessarily mean being 'bubbly' or 'random' rather having a strong focus on distancing oneself from the negativity and personal flaws they're well aware of, unlike type 2 who is similar in expression but swapping individualism and self assurance for external validation and complete denial of one's faults and mistakes.

Type 1 is just as self critical as both 7 and especially 4 but they don't escape their faults nor they embrace them, rather they're constantly striving to immediately fix anything that makes them feel morally inadequate according to their strict standards. Because the main aspect of a type 1 is that they don't budge nor question their personal judgements as their definition of what's wrong and what's right is clean cut and based on strong and firm principles. There's a common misconception that all Ones want to reform the world or feed off projection and jealousy but those are more linked to instinctual stacking more than anything, the perfection a type One seeks is different than the one a Six might desire as it's rooted on a fully formed vision, a need to be prepared, accurate, deliberate and competent. There's no need for additional data or proving their worth through words, rather a strong need to be as accurate as possible in order to prove through actions their moral worth and sticking with what's right and makes perfect sense in an objective way.

The anger of a type One goes inwards as it's perceived as a way to blame the self for any kind of mistake and wrong course of action, there's frustration aimed towards those who go against their moral code and generally act in a way that grinds their gears but it's not hot blooded like a 6's nor competitive and strongly personal like a 7's, it's more deliberate, self consuming, controlled yet building up and festering even after being unleashed. Tight lipped anger, criticism, a need to debunk any kind of logical leap, a way to punish the self for poor judgment and anything obvious that escaped them, for not being able to fix the reality around them.

*Self-pres ones*

Self-pres ones tend to have a considerable amount of anxiety. There is a tendency to be extremely nervous, particularly about matters of health and money. The pressure to be perfect manifests as needing to not make any mistakes practically, to account for every possible bad scenario, and to constantly be prepared. Setbacks materially are seen as a failure on their part to adequately prepare and thus not live up to the superego ideal of being the perfectly prepared individual. They can fret and worry over loved ones, but also become judgmental and critical when others do not share their strong drive towards covering the bases.

I see this in you, I see it a lot. 

I don't know you that well yet but most of your arguments in the Socionics forums, as well as the conversation we had recently lead me to think that you're strongly moral in a different way than a Social 7 would be (ie; you're not invested in campaigning for social rights and drawing pleasure from it) and yet the sexual 7 is too much idealistic and escaping from reality to fit you while self preservation 7s seek luxury and physical and sensual pleasures to escape boredom and negativity, to be freed from a rut. Other than your legitimate anxiety, I see a tinge of it in the need of being competent, of making perfect sense, of not being swayed from your stances but making sure to avoid any mistakes as you spontaneously stand your ground. A SEE type 1 will be a lot different from the more calculated, fore-planning and concise nature of a LIE or a LSE, you're first and foremost sanguine, physical, active, straightforward, grounded, impulsive, moral. I see a strong moral streak in your wanting to know all the sides to a story and basing your judgement on what you think and your Fi ego rather than simply buying what 'makes more sense' (again a 6 focus, they're caught between subjectivity and objectivity) and you're less driven by instant strong reactions like a 7 would be, there's a need to hold back and plan.

The way you described your relationship with negativity in a previous interaction is very 4-like.
I know that type 1 disintegrates into 4 and integrates into 7 but 1w9 7w6 4w3 sp/sx doesn't seem like a bad fot for you, perhaps even 7w8 as you seem more headstrong and realistic in your way of expressing your self but that could be easily attributed to Se and there's still a faint shadow of doubt in you, usually curbstomped by your core.
@Chesire Tower

5w4 is an interesting type, it's got the full intensity of a 4 and yet it's something hard to unlock and acknowledge for the Five as this type tends to be really unaware of emotional states until they build up, like a dripping sink that fills up over time. Many 5w4s mistype as 4s because they feel too emotional to be a 5, too delicate and weak, albeit their strong preference for compulsive research, their detachment from deep emotions, their need to retreat away from the world and save their energies are definitely not compatible with the dramatic nature of a core 4, whether it's in the form of a masochistic endurance or a contemptuous and feisty competitiveness, type 4 is highly strung on subjectivity and revenge and it's often pushed by either 1-like need for justice or 2-like entitlement, according on health levels. 

5w4s are not much the 'scientists' as they can have a strong artistic and poetic streak, preferring an objective and detached way of expressing themselves than 4w5s do. They're withdrawns with a withdrawn wing making them need to go away inside their own heads, their own world, one that's less emotionally driven than a 5w4's and less focused on reality and the outside world than a 5w6's, it's more of an extremely analytical kind where they can focus on understanding the world. Understanding reality is very important for a 5 and it's a strong compulsion as knowledge is seen as a way to be competent and prepared enough to limit any kind of energy wasting and avoid unneeded interaction, as a Ni-dominant it also focuses on perfecting your natural way to get at the essence of things, of wrapping up any concept in few steps.

I adore these descriptions:

Average 5/4 is the prototype personality for research scientists.
Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for
everything. Their intellectual fiveness makes them likely to engage in
long, professorial monologues, while their four-wing gives them a shy
self-consciousness. Unlike the more depressive 4/5, they are likely to have
a generally optimistic view, although they can get depressed if they become
overwhelmed by the world's demands. 5/4s are usually less interested in
social interactions than the more other-dependent 5/6.

Balanced 5/4 is more able to participate in life. When the fiveish desire
to withdraw and sort things out is no longer compulsive, then the
consciously chosen time alone becomes a tool for understanding the world,
rather than an entrapping habit. The fourish passion for beauty emerges as
the conscious result of harnessing the emotions rather than being their
slave. Healthy 5/4s begin to deeply understand the simple, elegant way that the awesome complexity of the world emerges from fundamental principles. They find great joy in watching and learning.


Unbalanced 5/4 gets lost in the details. The compulsive analysis of five
can lead to elaborate pseudo-logical constructions designed to explain
everything. The four-wing's emotionality adds a flavor of dramatic
hopelessness. Others Simply Do Not Understand. No one could understand. So
5/4 retreats to a place of safety, hoping to escape from view, continuing
to uncover the truth. There is little to no social involvement.

A 5 will seek stability but in a completely different way than a Six would.

It's a need to keep detached from the world, to see the beauty in simplicity and to spend as much time as possible immersed in their own strong focus on any matter rather than having to split their attention or having to take in unnecessary input from the outside as their own knowledge is fully formed and will selectively only seek implementations in what follows their line of reasoning. Another interesting bit:

Some 5/4s find work that combines intellect and aesthetics. Cosmologists,
futurists, science fiction authors. Others dive deeply into some highly
specialized discipline, becoming computer programmers, nuclear physicists,
theoretical scientists, molecular biologists, surface scientists, or any of
a thousand other highly technical jobs. There are 5/4 science reporters,
poets, painters, and photographers. Of course, 5/4s can also be found doing
many other kinds of work. 

There's a strong interest for mixing art and science, logic and emotion, one that I know all too well.

I have more material for both, especially concerning direct type differences and mistypings but I wanted to lay down the foundation just so that you could both take in this new perspective. It doesn't have to apply to you, just a suggestion.


----------



## Kisshoten

Kintsugi said:


> I've always related to 1, to the point where I find it difficult to understand how (when typed as 7) I would _disintegrate _to 1, as I feel 1ish pretty much most of the time (and I'm not _that _unhealthy, I don't think.)
> 
> Admittedly my understanding of Enneagram sucks, I have recently come to realize (can't type myself or others to save my life). I typed as 6 for a very long time before someone suggested 1 to me. Eventually I ended up settling on 7 after a few other people saw me this way. While I relate to a lot of the core 7 stuff I think, ultimately, my biggest issue has always been my unforgiving internal critic. When I talk about myself through the lens of 7 and say things like I'm "selfish" or "narcissistic", I've started to realize that this becomes another from of self criticism and a new opportunity for me to improve/perfect myself. I beat myself up, _a lot. _It seems as though my perception of myself is in some ways distorted as there is always something_ wrong_ and something that needs to be fixed, etc.
> 
> Perhaps 7 is the way I want to see myself because it's closer to my idealized self?
> 
> *Also, I'm super judgmental of others. Like, I have to stop myself preaching at people all the time, and I do get this addictive rush of adrenaline when I am in a position where I am lecturing about right/wrong or personal development. I think people who have spoken to me in private from this forum would agree that I love to rant and rave and pass judgement on the behavior and conduct on others. And, when I do see something that I consider to be wrong I cannot hold myself back from voicing my opinion. I feel things very passionately and deeply. I am 100% committed to developing myself and those around me. I find it hard to tolerate people who do not value this same thing and who I see as lacking in integrity. *
> 
> So...yeah. I'm kinda confused.


I sometimes still do and have done a lot of the bold stuff when I was younger. My connection to 1 is pretty obvious to me. But that does not make a 1 make. 

I think what nailed it for me was how I valued freedom and how much I valued freedom. When you talk about freedom like I do, it's like... total anarchy... with everyone just living to get off on something. And this reflected in how much I was willing to bend the rules and take it easy just because I was 'better' than the rest. You stick to the rules when you don't have a choice. But if you do have a choice and you know how not to make it work out badly for you, I don't see why rules matter. 

^ I can't imagine that coming from a 1.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Hotaru said:


> @_Kintsugi_
> 
> The main reason I see you as 1 is because you seem to envelop a lot of the characteristics of this type and you strongly remind me of @_TheProphetLaLa_ who's also a SEE and whom I mistyped as core 7 when I had huge misconceptions of what a type 1 actually is. Both types value honesty and directness, as well as 4 as they're all part of the negative triad and have strong links to each other, but type 7 is more focused on the Epicurean side of life that doesn't necessarily mean being 'bubbly' or 'random' rather having a strong focus on distancing oneself from the negativity and personal flaws they're well aware of, unlike type 2 who is similar in expression but swapping individualism and self assurance for external validation and complete denial of one's faults and mistakes.
> 
> Type 1 is just as self critical as both 7 and especially 4 but they don't escape their faults nor they embrace them, rather they're constantly striving to immediately fix anything that makes them feel morally inadequate according to their strict standards. Because the main aspect of a type 1 is that they don't budge nor question their personal judgements as their definition of what's wrong and what's right is clean cut and based on strong and firm principles. There's a common misconception that all Ones want to reform the world or feed off projection and jealousy but those are more linked to instinctual stacking more than anything, the perfection a type One seeks is different than the one a Six might desire as it's rooted on a fully formed vision, a need to be prepared, accurate, deliberate and competent. There's no need for additional data or proving their worth through words, rather a strong need to be as accurate as possible in order to prove through actions their moral worth and sticking with what's right and makes perfect sense in an objective way.
> 
> The anger of a type One goes inwards as it's perceived as a way to blame the self for any kind of mistake and wrong course of action, there's frustration aimed towards those who go against their moral code and generally act in a way that grinds their gears but it's not hot blooded like a 6's nor competitive and strongly personal like a 7's, it's more deliberate, self consuming, controlled yet building up and festering even after being unleashed. Tight lipped anger, criticism, a need to debunk any kind of logical leap, a way to punish the self for poor judgment and anything obvious that escaped them, for not being able to fix the reality around them.
> 
> *Self-pres ones*
> 
> Self-pres ones tend to have a considerable amount of anxiety. There is a tendency to be extremely nervous, particularly about matters of health and money. The pressure to be perfect manifests as needing to not make any mistakes practically, to account for every possible bad scenario, and to constantly be prepared. Setbacks materially are seen as a failure on their part to adequately prepare and thus not live up to the superego ideal of being the perfectly prepared individual. They can fret and worry over loved ones, but also become judgmental and critical when others do not share their strong drive towards covering the bases.
> 
> I see this in you, I see it a lot.
> 
> I don't know you that well yet but most of your arguments in the Socionics forums, as well as the conversation we had recently lead me to think that you're strongly moral in a different way than a Social 7 would be (ie; you're not invested in campaigning for social rights and drawing pleasure from it) and yet the sexual 7 is too much idealistic and escaping from reality to fit you while self preservation 7s seek luxury and physical and sensual pleasures to escape boredom and negativity, to be freed from a rut. Other than your legitimate anxiety, I see a tinge of it in the need of being competent, of making perfect sense, of not being swayed from your stances but making sure to avoid any mistakes as you spontaneously stand your ground. A SEE type 1 will be a lot different from the more calculated, fore-planning and concise nature of a LIE or a LSE, you're first and foremost sanguine, physical, active, straightforward, grounded, impulsive, moral. I see a strong moral streak in your wanting to know all the sides to a story and basing your judgement on what you think and your Fi ego rather than simply buying what 'makes more sense' (again a 6 focus, they're caught between subjectivity and objectivity) and you're less driven by instant strong reactions like a 7 would be, there's a need to hold back and plan.
> 
> The way you described your relationship with negativity in a previous interaction is very 4-like.
> I know that type 1 disintegrates into 4 and integrates into 7 but 1w9 7w6 4w3 sp/sx doesn't seem like a bad fot for you, perhaps even 7w8 as you seem more headstrong and realistic in your way of expressing your self but that could be easily attributed to Se and there's still a faint shadow of doubt in you, usually curbstomped by your core.
> 
> @_Chesire Tower_
> 
> 5w4 is an interesting type, it's got the full intensity of a 4 and yet it's something hard to unlock and acknowledge for the Five as this type tends to be really unaware of emotional states until they build up, like a dripping sink that fills up over time. Many 5w4s mistype as 4s because they feel too emotional to be a 5, too delicate and weak, albeit their strong preference for compulsive research, their detachment from deep emotions, their need to retreat away from the world and save their energies are definitely not compatible with the dramatic nature of a core 4, whether it's in the form of a masochistic endurance or a contemptuous and feisty competitiveness, type 4 is highly strung on subjectivity and revenge and it's often pushed by either 1-like need for justice or 2-like entitlement, according on health levels.
> 
> 5w4s are not much the 'scientists' as they can have a strong artistic and poetic streak, preferring an objective and detached way of expressing themselves than 4w5s do. They're withdrawns with a withdrawn wing making them need to go away inside their own heads, their own world, one that's less emotionally driven than a 5w4's and less focused on reality and the outside world than a 5w6's, it's more of an extremely analytical kind where they can focus on understanding the world. Understanding reality is very important for a 5 and it's a strong compulsion as knowledge is seen as a way to be competent and prepared enough to limit any kind of energy wasting and avoid unneeded interaction, as a Ni-dominant it also focuses on perfecting your natural way to get at the essence of things, of wrapping up any concept in few steps.
> 
> I adore these descriptions:
> 
> Average 5/4 is the prototype personality for research scientists.
> Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for
> everything. Their intellectual fiveness makes them likely to engage in
> long, professorial monologues, while their four-wing gives them a shy
> self-consciousness. Unlike the more depressive 4/5, they are likely to have
> a generally optimistic view, although they can get depressed if they become
> overwhelmed by the world's demands. 5/4s are usually less interested in
> social interactions than the more other-dependent 5/6.
> 
> Balanced 5/4 is more able to participate in life. When the fiveish desire
> to withdraw and sort things out is no longer compulsive, then the
> consciously chosen time alone becomes a tool for understanding the world,
> rather than an entrapping habit. The fourish passion for beauty emerges as
> the conscious result of harnessing the emotions rather than being their
> slave. Healthy 5/4s begin to deeply understand the simple, elegant way that the awesome complexity of the world emerges from fundamental principles. They find great joy in watching and learning.
> 
> 
> Unbalanced 5/4 gets lost in the details. The compulsive analysis of five
> can lead to elaborate pseudo-logical constructions designed to explain
> everything. The four-wing's emotionality adds a flavor of dramatic
> hopelessness. Others Simply Do Not Understand. No one could understand. So
> 5/4 retreats to a place of safety, hoping to escape from view, continuing
> to uncover the truth. There is little to no social involvement.
> 
> A 5 will seek stability but in a completely different way than a Six would.
> 
> It's a need to keep detached from the world, to see the beauty in simplicity and to spend as much time as possible immersed in their own strong focus on any matter rather than having to split their attention or having to take in unnecessary input from the outside as their own knowledge is fully formed and will selectively only seek implementations in what follows their line of reasoning. Another interesting bit:
> 
> Some 5/4s find work that combines intellect and aesthetics. Cosmologists,
> futurists, science fiction authors. Others dive deeply into some highly
> specialized discipline, becoming computer programmers, nuclear physicists,
> theoretical scientists, molecular biologists, surface scientists, or any of
> a thousand other highly technical jobs. There are 5/4 science reporters,
> poets, painters, and photographers. Of course, 5/4s can also be found doing
> many other kinds of work.
> 
> There's a strong interest for mixing art and science, logic and emotion, one that I know all too well.
> 
> I have more material for both, especially concerning direct type differences and mistypings but I wanted to lay down the foundation just so that you could both take in this new perspective. It doesn't have to apply to you, just a suggestion.


So have you changed your assessment of my type? Do you believe I'm a type 1 now? Also, which instinctual stacking do you see?


----------



## cinnabun

@Animal @Lunar Light



Random, but can you see Blue being a core 6w7? I keep going back and fourth on 8 and 6, but I'm sure it's 6. His gut type is 8, clearly:tongue:.


----------



## cinnabun

And Lunar, I will get back to your PM, I've not forgotten. I'm really bad at responding >_>.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Hotaru_

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.  

I'm really tired right now, I'll respond properly when I'm more compos mentis. 

@_Vergil_

I do value freedom a lot, but I think I value personal integrity more. Like, if being "free" somehow clashed with my idea of what I think _should_ be done in a given situation then I'm pretty sure I'd have little problem walking away from "freedom". With regard rules, I only pay attention to them if they make sense and I deem them to be worthy. Other than that, rules can, and _should _ be broken....especially if they are stupid. 

@_TheProphetLaLa_

So you and I are supposedly alike? ^_^


----------



## Golden Rose

TheProphetLaLa said:


> So have you changed your assessment of my type? Do you believe I'm a type 1 now? Also, which instinctual stacking do you see?


Yes, @Flatlander's argument made a lot of sense and I improved my perception of the type.

I'd say 1w2 7w6 3w4 soc/sx.


*Social ones

Social ones tend to want to perfect and reform the social world. They tend to see what's wrong in the greater sphere, and put their energy into making change in the community. There is a strong idealistic streak to the social one, and they can become both very actively involved and forceful in their efforts to convert others to their vision. There can also be a considerable amount of rigidity in the social sphere, with strict notions of how people ought to behave, becoming fixated on the proper etiquette.*

Of course, keep in mind that most of these descriptions are overly simplified and should be put into perspective by contrasting them to MBTI/Socion type to form an orderly individual picture formed by many separated systems. An ESFP will be less interested in etiquette and more blunt and focused on change and holding onto their guns when it comes to moral stances, much like I've seen you do in the debate or S&R areas (I've been a bit out of it, miss that loony place).


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Kintsugi said:


> @_Hotaru_
> 
> Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.
> 
> I'm really tired right now, I'll respond properly when I'm more compos mentis.
> 
> @_Vergil_
> 
> I do value freedom a lot, but I think I value personal integrity more. Like, if being "free" somehow clashed with my idea of what I think _should_ be done in a given situation then I'm pretty sure I'd have little problem walking away from "freedom". With regard rules, I only pay attention to them if they make sense and I deem them to be worthy. Other than that, rules can, and _should _ be broken....especially if they are stupid.
> 
> @_TheProphetLaLa_
> 
> So you and I are supposedly alike? ^_^


So they say fellow SEE. I feel like I'm a bit meaner than you however, from what little I've seen of you that is. But who knows? Maybe you're hiding some horns in the cute avatar of a girl licking a giant cockroach. XD


----------



## Slagasauras

Doot doot, allow me to awkwardly step in and give this machine a whirl!

Some people type me as a two, four, five, six, and nine.

I've read two, and it didn't completely resonate with me. Four was my first diagnosis I read into and it seemed pretty accurate; Six seemed to be fit well, as well as five. Nine, I'm afraid was a no bueno.
The only two I can really give an argument for not being are two and four, which I've listed below.
Why I disagreed with Two - I don't actively do good things for good things in return, I do good things because I know what it feels like to be shit.
Why I disagreed with Four - I ultimately don't think anything is truly wrong with me, I find I'm rather normal and keep my problems internalized.
Have fun : >!

**Oops, I forgot to add, I believe I'm five because I've always wanted to learn about things that come crashing into my life; for instance, my brother was diagnosed with depression and psychotic symptoms, so I read everything I could on schizophrenia because I was worried about developing the disease; same thing for my father getting melanoma, I read quite a lot on that as well out of fear of getting it....that is what a SP Five is correct?**


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Hotaru said:


> Yes, @_Flatlander_'s argument made a lot of sense and I improved my perception of the type.
> 
> I'd say 1w2 7w6 3w4 soc/sx.
> 
> 
> *Social ones
> 
> Social ones tend to want to perfect and reform the social world. They tend to see what's wrong in the greater sphere, and put their energy into making change in the community. There is a strong idealistic streak to the social one, and they can become both very actively involved and forceful in their efforts to convert others to their vision. There can also be a considerable amount of rigidity in the social sphere, with strict notions of how people ought to behave, becoming fixated on the proper etiquette.*
> 
> Of course, keep in mind that most of these descriptions are overly simplified and should be put into perspective by contrasting them to MBTI/Socion type to form an orderly individual picture formed by many separated systems. An ESFP will be less interested in etiquette and more blunt and focused on change and holding onto their guns when it comes to moral stances, much like I've seen you do in the debate or S&R areas (I've been a bit out of it, miss that loony place).


How accurate do you think the soul child concept is? A big part of the reason I self-typed at 7w6 is because I was a 7 in childhood, and I believed I had disintegrated to 1 because I'm unhealthy right now. Is that not a possibility?


----------



## Kintsugi

TheProphetLaLa said:


> So they say fellow SEE. I feel like I'm a bit meaner than you however, from what little I've seen of you that is. But who knows? Maybe you're hiding some horns in the cute avatar of a girl licking a giant cockroach. XD


I'd describe myself as "harsh" with "impossibly high standards" over "mean". I guess when someone is at the receiving end of one of my "lectures" I may come across as "mean" to them but it's never my intention. I don't tend to waste my time with victims who like to play guilt-trip games with me, though. Sometimes people deserve a good old metaphorical slapping, and there ain't nothing wrong with that. 

I'm cute as fuck, even with the horns. :kitteh:


----------



## Golden Rose

TheProphetLaLa said:


> How accurate do you think the soul child concept is? A big part of the reason I self-typed at 7w6 is because I was a 7 in childhood, and I believed I had disintegrated to 1 because I'm unhealthy right now. Is that not a possibility?


I've yet to research the concept in depth so I don't want to give quick assessments but levels of unhealthiness and disintegration are something that runs really deep and even a disintegrated 7 won't exactly be a 1, just taking on its worst traits and merging them into their core type. According to this link:

This is a medium-to-low state of disintegration in a 7:

Manipulate others by distracting them and demanding that others meet their needs.
Shadow Issue of Gluttony arises when Sevens are greedy for more and more things and experiences without being truly satisfied.

This is the worst state of disintegration in a 7:

Completely uninhibited, they seek any kind of thrill or stimulation. Their impulsiveness borders on the infantile, acting out whatever whim or escapade comes to mind.

While this is a very healthy 1 (I skipped the first two levels because they seem almost unattainable):

Relate to others primarily by responsible, principled
I have a mission in life; I’m not here to fool around
I’m a good person if I do what’s right.

I remember you having an anxiety disorder that might make you seem more 7ish but I see your moral push as sharper. The natural quick-witted, active and hedonistic nature of an ESFP might steer towards a 7 impression, perhaps, but 7s have some kind of positivist and escapist element that I see less pronounced in you both, not as strong as in Suzy or Daphne (at least privately). 

You seem both very focused on what's morally right and competency.

I can see 1 with a strong 7 fix or 7 with a strong 1 fix for both.


----------



## Animal

Rinnie said:


> @_Animal_ @_Lunar Light_
> 
> 
> 
> Random, but can you see Blue being a core 6w7? I keep going back and fourth on 8 and 6, but I'm sure it's 6. His gut type is 8, clearly:tongue:.


I could see core 6w7 as a possibility. I don't really see core 8 as a possibility. 8 fix, definitely a possibility imo.


----------



## Flatlander

Slagathor said:


> Doot doot, allow me to awkwardly step in and give this machine a whirl!
> 
> Some people type me as a two, four, five, six, and nine.
> 
> I've read two, and it didn't completely resonate with me. Four was my first diagnosis I read into and it seemed pretty accurate; Six seemed to be fit well, as well as five. Nine, I'm afraid was a no bueno.
> The only two I can really give an argument for not being are two and four, which I've listed below.
> Why I disagreed with Two - I don't actively do good things for good things in return, I do good things because I know what it feels like to be shit.
> Why I disagreed with Four - I ultimately don't think anything is truly wrong with me, I find I'm rather normal and keep my problems internalized.
> Have fun : >!
> 
> **Oops, I forgot to add, I believe I'm five because I've always wanted to learn about things that come crashing into my life; for instance, my brother was diagnosed with depression and psychotic symptoms, so I read everything I could on schizophrenia because I was worried about developing the disease; same thing for my father getting melanoma, I read quite a lot on that as well out of fear of getting it....that is what a SP Five is correct?**


I don't think your reasoning about the types is that great, but five does sound like a possibility.

How is reading about these diseases going to help you? Do you only seek knowledge in these instances where a threat is near? Is it the fear of what could happen that drives your life?


----------



## Flatlander

TheProphetLaLa said:


> How accurate do you think the soul child concept is? A big part of the reason I self-typed at 7w6 is because I was a 7 in childhood, and I believed I had disintegrated to 1 because I'm unhealthy right now. Is that not a possibility?


Your presence at core 1 doesn't strike me as insecure, projective, immature, stress-based or anything that would indicate that it's a disintegration.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Flatlander said:


> Your presence at core 1 didn't strike me as insecure, projective, immature, stress-based or anything that would indicate that it's a disintegration.


Alright then. Its settled. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Slagasauras

Flatlander said:


> I don't think your reasoning about the types is that great, but five does sound like a possibility.
> 
> How is reading about these diseases going to help you? Do you only seek knowledge in these instances where a threat is near? Is it the fear of what could happen that drives your life?


Hm, I remember when my brother was diagnosed, I read as much as I could out of possible developing the same symptoms and what I could look out for, potentially intervene if you will.


----------



## Paradigm

Slagathor said:


> Hm, I remember when my brother was diagnosed, I read as much as I could out of possible developing the same symptoms and what I could look out for, potentially intervene if you will.


I probably would've done the same, tbf. I've always been the one over-reading about (in particular) health issues.


----------



## galactic collision

Over-reading about health issues could be an sp thing??? @Slagathor @Paradigm


----------



## Figure

Kintsugi said:


> I'd describe myself as "harsh" with "impossibly high standards" over "mean". I guess when someone is at the receiving end of one of my "lectures" I may come across as "mean" to them but it's never my intention. I don't tend to waste my time with victims who like to play guilt-trip games with me, though. Sometimes people deserve a good old metaphorical slapping, and there ain't nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I'm cute as fuck, even with the horns. :kitteh:


I really do not think you are a 1. I'm the one who constantly reminds that any MBTI can be any enneatype, however, ESFP and 1 is a huge red flag to me that someone needs to get with the program. 

To really dig into this I'll need to round up some of your posts and put the pieces together, but even just with lecturing (which 1's and 7's can both easily do) there are significant differences between the types in how and what is lectured. 

The primary difference is what is behind the lecturing itself. Lecturing for 1's is driven by their own intolerance of inner and outer worlds, and is an action against these environments, that reality is not what the 1 expected and they must change it/you. The engine behind it is embodied anger that may be partially or completely hidden by the 1's intolerance of their own intolerance (i.e. by their self-control). Lecturing for 7's can take on a similar feeling of not approving, but is very rarely as directed and one-directionally intentful as it is for 1's. 7's lectures take more the form of having an expectation of something or someone being more, being open to more, looking towards more or something else than they are. It is a reflection of Gluttony, in frustration that one may not have their needs satisfied, and should look outward for that to take place. The good stuff is all over out there, not with what you're doing, and you need a kick in the pants for it.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Figure_

I'm pretty torn between 7 and 1 as I see a lot of myself in both but I really have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to Enneagram. 




> I really do not think you are a 1. I'm the one who constantly reminds that any MBTI can be any enneatype, however, ESFP and 1 is a huge red flag to me that someone needs to get with the program.



What's the deal with ESFP and 1? Is it_ really_ that ludicrous, lol.




> To really dig into this I'll need to round up some of your posts and put the pieces together, but even just with lecturing (which 1's and 7's can both easily do) there are significant differences between the types in how and what is lectured.
> 
> The primary difference is what is behind the lecturing itself. Lecturing for 1's is driven by their own intolerance of inner and outer worlds, and is an action against these environments, that reality is not what the 1 expected and they must change it/you. The engine behind it is embodied anger that may be partially or completely hidden by the 1's intolerance of their own intolerance (i.e. by their self-control). Lecturing for 7's can take on a similar feeling of not approving, but is very rarely as directed and one-directionally intentful as it is for 1's. _*7's lectures take more the form of having an expectation of something or someone being more, being open to more, looking towards more or something else than they are. It is a reflection of Gluttony, in frustration that one may not have their needs satisfied, and should look outward for that to take place. The good stuff is all over out there, not with what you're doing, and you need a kick in the pants for it.*_




Feel free to dig all you like. I'm open to any feedback.

Can you explain what you mean by intolerance of inner and outer worlds?

I feel I have big issues with self-control. I can't relax fully unless I'm drunk, for instance (it's the only thing that shuts my inner critic up). However, that might be the result of an anxiety disorder and nothing to do with type. >_>

Okay, I relate to the bold _a lot_. Now I'm confused, lol.


----------



## galactic collision

Kintsugi said:


> I feel I have big issues with self-control. I can't relax fully unless I'm drunk, for instance (it's the only thing that shuts my inner critic up). However, that might be the result of an anxiety disorder and nothing to do with type. >_>


I don't have an anxiety disorder (other than a phobia) and my inner critic is VERY loud. I have a friend who told me that when I talk, I speak like I'm thinking out what I'm going to say before I say it. I'm not even conscious of this happening. He told me it's almost like a politician making a speech, it sounds so planned out. And then he told me that when I get drunk I act exactly the same except that I sound less like I'm making a speech and more casual.

I think of myself as pretty casual in general, but I also know I'm quite eloquent, and I think I can blame that on my need for constant control over myself. I also don't really know how to relax - my version of relaxing is to keep working, because when I think "relax" I think "sit down and do nothing," and I can't just do that! I have to keep moving, keep working, keep being productive... 

I don't know if this is something you relate to, I just had to say something because I personally relate to what you're saying about issues with self-control and feeling like you can't relax until you're drunk.


----------



## mushr00m

Kintsugi said:


> What's the deal with ESFP and 1? Is it_ really_ that ludicrous, lol.


I don't think it is. If I remember rightly, @Paradigm spoke of her aunt being an ESFP/4 which is not a commonly spoken of combination, something to consider I s'pose. ^_^


----------



## Paradigm

mushr00m said:


> I don't think it is. If I remember rightly, @Paradigm spoke of her aunt being an ESFP/4 which is not a commonly spoken of combination, something to consider I s'pose. ^_^


My aunt is really baffling (imo) and is growing more unhealthy as she ages... I still put her as ESFP 4w3 (468), though, yeah -- and SO/SX now. Have considered ESFJ, 6w7, and SX/SO, all in various combinations.

I type my sister as ESFP 713. She's really, really 1w2-like, but the 7 is stronger. Some of the 1-likeness might be her strong SOC, but I don't think it could be the sole reason. To put it _very _shortly, she's critical and quick to correct others on various things, and has her Causes that take up her life.


----------



## Paradigm

justforthespark said:


> Over-reading about health issues could be an sp thing???


Sorry it took a bit to get to this.

Well, yeah. It _could_ be, but not in a way that all SPs over-read, or all people who over-read are SP. Personally, I have a fascination about how the human body (and mind) works, so reading about health is interesting. Wanted to go into a medical career for forever but... meh, reasons.

This is one of those (many) things where I'm hesitant to assign a type/instinct to, because it's:
1) quite generic a trait, reading about [insert topic]
2) could easily stem from a personal reason, such as life experiences.

In other words, one trait alone does not make a type :laughing:


----------



## Kintsugi

@_justforthespark_

I think a lot of my "control" issues are related to social anxiety. I just find it hard to reconcile this with all the descriptions that portray 7s as these super uninhibited free spirits. Although, that description did kinda fit me when I was younger, and people do often perceive me this way; it's just this is completely different to what I feel is going on internally. People are often really surprised when I tell them I struggle with anxiety because on the outside, apparently, I look very confident and sure of myself.

I have _significant _inner critic issues. I know we all have one, but sometimes it feels as though there is some kind of dictator living inside my head, controlling me. >_>

@_Paradigm_ @_mushr00m_

One of my best friends I _think _is ESFP 4w3, so I don't think unusual combinations are completely out the question. 

I typed as ESFP 714 sx/sp before I recently started wondering if I'm core 1, not 7. The thing is, the Soc-first 7 stuff doesn't really fit me, and most people agree that I am likely soc-last. I don't have "causes", I care very strongly about things but I'm more focused on reforming individuals. I'm always dishing out self-improvement advice to my friends and loved ones. It's uncomfortable for me to admit that I can be quite judgmental of others; and I really do have impossibly high standards, and when people fail to meet them I start feeling very frustrated and impatient.

Basically...I believe I must be some kind of frustration type. I'm pretty sure I'm triple-frustration, actually. I'm just not sure what order the numbers go in (although 4 is probably last as I relate least to this).


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@LondonBaker
I cannot see you as a 2 by any stretch of the imagination. might I suggest looking into Sexual 5


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Figure said:


> I really do not think you are a 1. I'm the one who constantly reminds that any MBTI can be any enneatype, however, ESFP and 1 is a huge red flag to me that someone needs to get with the program.
> 
> To really dig into this I'll need to round up some of your posts and put the pieces together, but even just with lecturing (which 1's and 7's can both easily do) there are significant differences between the types in how and what is lectured.
> 
> *The primary difference is what is behind the lecturing itself. Lecturing for 1's is driven by their own intolerance of inner and outer worlds, and is an action against these environments, that reality is not what the 1 expected and they must change it/you. The engine behind it is embodied anger that may be partially or completely hidden by the 1's intolerance of their own intolerance (i.e. by their self-control). Lecturing for 7's can take on a similar feeling of not approving, but is very rarely as directed and one-directionally intentful as it is for 1's. 7's lectures take more the form of having an expectation of something or someone being more, being open to more, looking towards more or something else than they are. It is a reflection of Gluttony, in frustration that one may not have their needs satisfied, and should look outward for that to take place. The good stuff is all over out there, not with what you're doing, and you need a kick in the pants for it.*


Could you explain this more in detail or more clearly? I don't understand it.

Also, is lecturing a necessary trait for a 1 or so 7? I don't lecture a lot.


----------



## Figure

Kintsugi said:


> @_Figure_
> 
> I'm pretty torn between 7 and 1 as I see a lot of myself in both but I really have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to Enneagram.


Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier and believe part of that to be caused by the theory using its own codified language. Enneagram in general tends to slide around commonplace terms with very intricate, precise meaning behind them to the context they are being used. When you consider Claudio Naranjo, for example, took the MBTI test and tested as INTP, that makes a lot of sense. 




> What's the deal with ESFP and 1? Is it_ really_ that ludicrous, lol.




I think it is, actually. It's not that ESFP can't be critical, judgmental, sharp, easily irritated, and frustrated. It's that 2's, 6's, and 7's can be too, that these are much more common for ESFP. Add to that that self restraint and self control are CRITICAL aspects of 1, and are difficult to imagine with the ESFP cognitive style, the lack of which is often described as the _problem_ for ESFP. 

It's not that it "can't happen" - I know type 1 ENTP, ISTP, ISFP, INTP, as well as ESFP with 1 fixes, or 1-ish 7's - but ESFP core type 1 is one of the few combinations I have a hard time picturing. 



> Can you explain what you mean by intolerance of inner and outer worlds?


Sure. 

Firstly, an enneagram type in general is a habit you develop as a child to protect yourself against some kind of threat you imagine or experience to be in the world. By inner/outer worlds, I just mean it can be something inside of you (an emotion, a thought, an idea, etc) or outside of you (your environment) that triggers you to feel threatened. 

For 1's, the threat is being wrong. This may have been because they were constantly criticized as children, had to "grow up too fast" to meet a standard, or simply because they felt their environment lacked authority or structure and _they _had to become the authority or make the structure themselves. For example (since you know socionics) - I grew up as an only child with critical Si parents, and felt it was 100% on me to go well out of my way to know what they expected so I would not be criticized. Of course since they are Si and I am Ni, they never really did respect/understand me as I was, so I had to find a way to push myself into "being it all" to not feel a threat of being neglected. To do this, I learned to constantly monitor whether I'm doing the right thing or not, and if there is the slightest chance someone could criticize it. 

Obviously, other 1's will have different back stories. But the feeling of constantly having to monitor one's own rightness is a very important aspect of type 1. 1's have antennae out for what is wrong, or should be changed - what they should change in themselves, and what needs changed in their society, relationships, families, businesses, workplaces, etc. It's not just lecturing, it's a very persistent, intense, convicted need to reform that goes back to childhood fear that one would be neglected for not being good/right/correct/orderly. 




> I feel I have big issues with self-control. I can't relax fully unless I'm drunk, for instance (it's the only thing that shuts my inner critic up). However, that might be the result of an anxiety disorder and nothing to do with type



When you say "inner critic," what all is the voice in your head telling you?


----------



## Kintsugi

Figure said:


> Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier and believe part of that to be caused by the theory using its own codified language. Enneagram in general tends to slide around commonplace terms with very intricate, precise meaning behind them to the context they are being used. When you consider Claudio Naranjo, for example, took the MBTI test and tested as INTP, that makes a lot of sense.


Damn those pesky INTPs! Jk 

That does make sense (I also suspected he was INTP, too). I have attempted to, on multiple occasions, read Naranjo and have given up, every-time. It's actually similar to my experience of reading Jung as well.

The Ti PoLR feelz...



> I think it is, actually. It's not that ESFP can't be critical, judgmental, sharp, easily irritated, and frustrated. It's that 2's, 6's, and 7's can be too, that these are much more common for ESFP. Add to that that self restraint and self control are CRITICAL aspects of 1, and are difficult to imagine with the ESFP cognitive style, the lack of which is often described as the _problem for ESFP.
> 
> It's not that it "can't happen" - I know type 1 ENTP, ISTP, ISFP, INTP, as well as ESFP with 1 fixes, or 1-ish 7's - but ESFP core type 1 is one of the few combinations I have a hard time picturing. _


Yeah, I get your point. And I am, by _no _means, self-controlled/restrained in the way an IxTJ is, for example. I'm extremely impulsive and scattered, lol.

The heavy Ji-influence in Enneagram theory confuses me; and as soon as someone tries to Je-ify it all, someone comes along and argues that it's too narrow-minded, etc. I honestly don't know what sources are reliable anymore. >_>



> Firstly, an enneagram type in general is a habit you develop as a child to protect yourself against some kind of threat you imagine or experience to be in the world. By inner/outer worlds, I just mean it can be something inside of you (an emotion, a thought, an idea, etc) or outside of you (your environment) that triggers you to feel threatened.
> 
> For 1's, the threat is being wrong. This may have been because they were constantly criticized as children, had to "grow up too fast" to meet a standard, or simply because they felt their environment lacked authority or structure and _they had to become the authority or make the structure themselves. For example (since you know socionics) - *I grew up as an only child with critical Si parents, and felt it was 100% on me to go well out of my way to know what they expected so I would not be criticized, and ultimately it was me and what I thought was right, vs. them. Of course since they are Si and I am Ni, they never really did respect/understand me as I was, so I had to find a way to push myself into "being it all" to not feel a threat of being neglected. As a strategy for this, at some point I learned to constantly monitor whether I'm doing the right thing or not, and if there is the slightest chance someone could criticize it. *
> 
> Obviously, other 1's will have different back stories. But the feeling of constantly having to monitor one's own rightness is a very important aspect of type 1. 1's have antennae out for what is wrong, or should be changed - what they should change in themselves, and what needs changed in their society, relationships, families, businesses, workplaces, etc. It's not just lecturing, it's a very persistent, intense, convicted need to reform that goes back to childhood fear that one would be neglected for not being good/right/correct/orderly. _


I can totally relate to the bold. I grew up in a predominantly Alpha/Delta household with absolutely no Ni or Se influence (and was constantly criticized for it). I was an only child up until 8 years old but was suddenly expected to grow up very quickly when my brother arrived and had to deal with all that "eldest child" crap that comes along with it. Which, actually, I resented a lot because I had always loved the freedom of being an only child. And, tbh, I think my parents indulged this as well. However, when my brother came a long it was a _huge _shock to the system. Suddenly, the world did _not_ revolve around me (which in my eyes, was a tragedy, lol).

I think the way I responded to the constant criticism and the expectation to be the "mature" and "responsible" elder sibling is confusing. At different points in my life I either adopted a 7-like coping strategy (i.e. escapism), or a 1-like strategy (I conformed and did what I thought was expected of me, which I felt was the _right _​thing to do). And this is what confuses me.

I relate to bits of the second part of this but not as intensely as I feel you are describing it. 



> When you say "inner critic," what all is the voice in your head telling you?


_
"Stop being such a self-indulgent child and GROW UP!"

"You're a failure, you can't achieve anything because you have no focus or discipline."

"You will never understand or experience true love because you are too selfish."

"You will always be an outsider because you refuse to conform to their standards."

"You are chaotic and undisciplined no matter how hard you pretend you aren't."_

My response to these messages is either to submit and try to conform to what my inner critic wants or to say, "FUCK YOU," and do what the hell I want, lol.


----------



## Kisshoten

Kintsugi said:


> _
> "Stop being such a self-indulgent child and GROW UP!"
> 
> "You're a failure, you can't achieve anything because you have no focus or discipline."
> 
> "You will never understand or experience true love because you are too selfish."
> 
> "You will always be an outsider because you refuse to conform to their standards."
> 
> "You are chaotic and undisciplined no matter how hard you pretend you are."_
> 
> My response to these messages is either to submit and try to conform to what my inner critic wants or to say, "FUCK YOU," and do what the hell I want, lol.


I vote 7.


----------



## Kintsugi

Vergil said:


> I vote 7.


what about the wing? (for shits and giggles).

Also...714? sx/sp, or sp/sx?


----------



## Entropic

Figure said:


> are difficult to imagine with the ESFP cognitive style, the lack of which is often described as the _problem_ for ESFP.


Why? I mean, what about the cognitive style in itself is difficult to imagine?


----------



## Kisshoten

Kintsugi said:


> what about the wing? (for shits and giggles).
> 
> Also...714? sx/sp, or sp/sx?


no clue about either...

7 with 1 fix makes more sense considering you're even considering 1 for core. The connection must be strong. At least, that's how I see it.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Vergil_

Methinks so, too. 

We can go back to being type 7 kindred spirits, again! *high5*

@_Entropic_

The cognition style of ESFP does kinda clash with the essence of what type 1 is about. I think that's what @_Figure_ is underlining.


----------



## Entropic

Kintsugi said:


> The cognition style of ESFP does kinda clash with the essence of what type 1 is about. I think that's what @_Figure_ is underlining.


But how so? I mean, Se, if looking at it in its very simplest definition, is essentially just taking in the world as it is in all its physical detail.


----------



## Kintsugi

Entropic said:


> But how so? I mean, Se, if looking at it in its very simplest definition, is essentially just taking in the world as it is in all its physical detail.


Yeah, but it's also about impulsiveness (a focus on objective experience/stimulation) and being scattered (inferior Ni; finding it hard to "add up the dots" and work out the best path to take to reach a certain destination/hit a particular goal.)


----------



## Hei

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @LondonBaker
> I cannot see you as a 2 by any stretch of the imagination. might I suggest looking into Sexual 5


I'm not sure... I read the description... I don't think it fits well enough. I am very amused by this though XD


----------



## galactic collision

@Kintsugi If you are a 7, I suspect a very strong 6 wing. I don't see any 8 in you at all. You have too much superego to be 7w8, and that on top of a 1-fix could also be a big part of why you're considering 1 as your core type.


----------



## Kintsugi

justforthespark said:


> @_Kintsugi_ If you are a 7, I suspect a very strong 6 wing. I don't see any 8 in you at all. You have too much superego to be 7w8, and that on top of a 1-fix could also be a big part of why you're considering 1 as your core type.


Yeah, I don't related to 8 that much. I'm way too rigid and fiery for that. I relate to 1 more than 6 though. Having spent time with a couple of 6s recently I can say I really struggle to understand that mindset. :/


----------



## Entropic

Kintsugi said:


> Yeah, but it's also about impulsiveness (a focus on objective experience/stimulation) and being scattered (inferior Ni; finding it hard to "add up the dots" and work out the best path to take to reach a certain destination/hit a particular goal.)


Well, I think impulsiveness is more a result of how it _can_ manifest, and the same applies to being scattered. I mean, I can imagine an Se dom 1 type would be a lot in the lines of, "I want X but I shouldn't" and scolding themselves. So here, the craving, the desire for experience is actually retained within the psyche, but it is not outwardly acted upon. Because if we go and look at the literature, we will also see similar qualities being ascribed to inferior Se where bingeing is an often mentioned quality of how it can manifest but yet people have no problem ascribing type 1 to INTJs, even though I'd say the correlation isn't nearly as strong as I think some sources suggest (based on my own incomplete data, anyway). 

And I think this is the fundamental problem with descriptions in that they are _prescriptive _and make sense of people's behavior, but the thing is that the behavior can also be infused with other things. There is no direct correlation where we can say that being impulsive or having poor impulse control directly correlates only with Se in any given individual as if these two things exist in a vacuum, because people are more complex than that. There can therefore be other factors involved that will appear as unknown variables which may directly affect the result i.e. behavior. The behavior can therefore have more than one cause, and the causes may not even necessarily at all relate to what it seems to correlate to i.e. impulsiveness may not at all have anything to do with Se; it could actually be that it's an entirely unrelated mechanism which, due to its correlation, is mistaken to have Se as its cause. 

The tl;dr of all this is that what people do is not always what they think or what they want to do and because I am of the belief that cognition or for the matter enneatype, are best understood as specific psychic structures which may then manifest in certain behaviors, it becomes nigh impossible to say that B always has a direct correlation with A, because we think A > B. It could also be that X > B, or even A + X > B, or A > X > B.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Entropic_

You kind of lost me there I'm afraid, lol.

I _think _your point was (correct me if I'm wrong) that people focus too much on behaviors when really they should be looking more closely at motivations, etc? And that there are many different variables that can influence behavior in any given type?

Well, I don't disagree with you there. However, I do think there _are _definite patterns between certain behaviors and particular types. I think if we all just said, "well, any type can display any kind of behavior," it would be rather difficult to come up with a reliable objective categorization system that can be used to help type people; turning it instead into a system where it was about typing people according to a more personal/subjective understanding and interpretation of what each core motivation means. And that tends to make things kinda messy.

This is why I wonder if Enneagram is best used as an introspection tool only.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Kintsugi said:


> @_Entropic_
> 
> You kind of lost me there I'm afraid, lol.
> 
> I _think _your point was (correct me if I'm wrong) that people focus too much on behaviors when really they should be looking more closely at motivations, etc? And that there are a many different variables that can influence behavior in any given type?
> 
> Well, I don't disagree with you there. However, I do think there _are _definite patterns between certain behaviors and particular types. I think if we all just said, "well, any type can display any kind of behavior," it would be rather difficult to come up with a reliable objective categorization system that can be used to help type people; turning it instead into a system where it was about typing people according to a personal subjective understanding/interpretation of what each core motivation means. And that tends to make things kinda messy.
> 
> This is why I wonder if Enneagram is best used as an introspection tool only.


What he's trying to say is that Se is not a behavior, its a preferred manner of perceiving the world. That preferred manner of perceiving the world can manifest into different behavioral patterns. Its true that some behavioral manifestations are more likely than others, but that doesn't mean that no other manifestations are possible.

Thats why directly linking behavior to type can sometimes be more detrimental than beneficial in finding your true type.


----------



## Kintsugi

TheProphetLaLa said:


> What he's trying to say is that Se is not a behavior, its a preferred manner of perceiving the world. That preferred manner of perceiving the world can manifest into different behavioral patterns. Its true that some behavioral manifestations are more likely than others, but that doesn't mean that no other manifestations are possible.
> 
> Thats why directly linking behavior to type can sometimes be more detrimental than beneficial in finding your true type.


Yeah, I got that. I'm not disagreeing with him. I am just pointing out that there does need to be some kind of objective markers. Otherwise you could claim that anyone was any given type and nobody would be able to agree/disagree with you, because everything is based on subjective interpretation. I guess I'm questioning the reliability of using this as a framework for typing/understanding others.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

@_Entropic_ @_Kintsugi_ @_TheProphetLaLa_

And actually, while we're on this line of thought...I can in fact imagine impulsiveness in a Type 1, in particular a gut drive to "Correct" someone's behavior (though this is in particular Sx 1 I think). Sx 1s show their moral perfection in a countertypical way, not just by meeting duties but by doing intense/crazy shit in the name of a cause. "If I truly believe in my morals, then I should be willing to throw my life away for them", almost (maybe that's a little too extreme). 

So in a weird way I can see Se-dominance and Sx 1 as suited to each other, forming an archetype of that guy that just can't resist beating up that asshole punk who hit his girlfriend. Which is definitely an impulsive act. :tongue:


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Kintsugi said:


> Yeah, I got that. I'm not disagreeing with him. I am just pointing out that there does need to be some kind of objective markers. Otherwise you could claim that anyone was any given type and nobody would be able to agree/disagree with you, because everything is based on subjective interpretation. I guess I'm questioning the reliability of using this as a framework for typing/understanding others.


Well, I guess thats kind of the point and why enneagram and mbti are in the end, tools for introspection and nothing more. There are some people that are good at typing others while not relying solely on behavioral patterns, but its pretty rare as they need to be really immersed in the theory of the functions (in the case of MBTI). I, for one, am not able to type people like that.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_TheProphetLaLa_

I feel like there can be an imbalance either way; some rely too heavily on behavioral descriptions, and some type everyone according to their own subjective system, at the risk of ignoring any conflicting data that doesn't fit their "model."

What do I know. I can't type for shit, lol. xD


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Kintsugi said:


> @_TheProphetLaLa_
> 
> I feel like there can be an imbalance either way; some rely too heavily on behavioral descriptions, and some type everyone according to their own subjective system, at the risk of ignoring any conflicting data that doesn't fit their "model."
> 
> What do I know. I can't type for shit, lol. xD


Trust me girl, I'm right there in the shit with you as far as typing goes. XD
@Entropic is good at typing people. At least, as far as MBTI and Socionics goes. He's one of the few users who correctly assumed I was some kind of xSFP. Everyone else thought I was an NFP or NFJ or even STP because of these very same behavioral stereotypes that are perpetuated throughout this forum.


----------



## Kintsugi

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Trust me girl, I'm right there in the shit with you as far as typing goes. XD
> @_Entropic_ is good at typing people. At least, as far as MBTI and Socionics goes. He's one of the few users who correctly assumed I was some kind of xSFP. Everyone else thought I was an NFP or NFJ or even STP because of those very same behavioral stereotypes that are perpetuated throughout this forum.


I believe @_Entropic_ 's typings are hit and miss. When he doesn't let his personal bias get in the way he's not half bad, I suppose. I think a healthy serving of skepticism coupled with a dollop of critical thinking is needed a lot of the time though, as it is with any so-called "good typer".

Do I sound 6ish yet? :kitteh:


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Kintsugi said:


> I believe @_Entropic_ 's typings are hit and miss. When he doesn't let his personal bias get in the way he's not half bad, I suppose. I think a healthy dose of skepticism coupled with a dollop of critical thinking is needed a lot of the time though, as it is with any so-called "good typer".
> 
> Do I sound 6ish yet? :kitteh:


Not exactly. Sounds more like there's some grudges being held. Not that I blame you, the first time I interacted with @Entropic dearest I wanted to bitch slap him into another dimension. 

But you have to give him credit where credit is due. He's good at typing. Objectively speaking. Now like we said the purpose of MBTI and enneagram is in the end introspection, so there's only so much even a good typer can tell you about yourself.


----------



## Figure

Entropic said:


> The tl;dr of all this is that what people do is not always what they think or what they want to do and because I am of the belief that cognition or for the matter enneatype, are best understood as specific psychic structures which may then manifest in certain behaviors, it becomes nigh impossible to say that B always has a direct correlation with A, because we think A > B. It could also be that X > B, or even A + X > B, or A > X > B.


Nobody here has said it is impossible, nor is anyone debating the theory structures in contrast. I am saying it is highly unlikely and deserves scrutinization, and it is beyond unrealistic to sit around and assume because anything is possible, the correct type is the unlikely option. 



kintsugi said:


> I think the way I responded to the constant criticism and the expectation to be the "mature" and "responsible" elder sibling is confusing. At different points in my life I either adopted a 7-like coping strategy (i.e. escapism), or a 1-like strategy (I conformed and did what I thought was expected of me, which I felt was the _right _​thing to do). And this is what confuses me.
> 
> _"Stop being such a self-indulgent child and GROW UP!"
> 
> "You're a failure, you can't achieve anything because you have no focus or discipline."
> 
> "You will never understand or experience true love because you are too selfish."
> 
> "You will always be an outsider because you refuse to conform to their standards."
> 
> "You are chaotic and undisciplined no matter how hard you pretend you aren't."_
> 
> My response to these messages is either to submit and try to conform to what my inner critic wants or to say, "FUCK YOU," and do what the hell I want, lol.


Let's talk Superego. 

So, what I take from this is the presence of a Superego, and perhaps a very strong one. That's characteristic of types 1, 2, and 6, though all types have a Superego. The Superego in general is what keeps our status quo. 

The theme in the examples you have given above is certainly of self-criticism, but in reading them I get the feeling that you may be undercutting yourself, almost as if you were suspicious of your own ability to do the things you want to do. Along with that, questions as to whether to conform or not conform, and deciding on how you may want to respond to expectations. See Maitri's comment below:



Maitri said:


> It (the Superego) is authoritarian - imperious and overbearing - and demanding total conformity. It reinforces his basic sense of himself as deficient and just plain not having what it takes in the game of life


versus



Maitri said:


> from a psychological point of view, every One becomes identified with his Superego, fighting a campaign against the inner infidel, which to him resides in the seething cauldron of instinctual drives that is the Id..To a One, this instinctual self is seen as the enemy, as what is wrong with himself and others.



You can see the difference here, in that the Superego for 6 is more linked to not being sure of oneself and needing to make oneself able to provide validation they are sure and okay. Not being equipped or simply "with it" enough, and needing to conform better to something to make oneself be sure. For 1's, it's more of a fear not so much that you are deficient and need to find a place; 1's think they already are good and okay, but that there are aggressive, angry, "bad," or somehow wrong drives beneath them that _need to be contained_ or they will no longer be good and okay. They use their Superego almost exclusively because they are angry, ethically or factually wrong and perhaps aggressive but know that showing it will only confirm their fear of being wrong while they go on feeling they are right. 

I would highly recommend going back to type 6 or perhaps 7w6. I know the definitions are crap, but the vast majority of 6's here would totally agree with that and it's worth looking into some of the better descriptions here (Maitri, Palmer who is a 6 and in my typing an ENTJ).


----------



## Kintsugi

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Not exactly. Sounds more like there's some grudges being held. Not that I blame you, the first time I interacted with @_Entropic_ dearest I wanted to bitch slap him into another dimension.
> 
> But you have to give him credit where credit is due. He's good at typing. Objectively speaking. Now like we said the purpose of MBTI and enneagram is in the end introspection, so there's only so much even a good typer can tell you about yourself.


Nah, no grudges here. I stated my opinion on his typing seeing as you brought it up. I'm pretty sure he knows my thoughts on this anyway seeing as we've butted heads about typing matters on several occasions. And, I'm pretty sure I've disagreed with others for similar reasons so he's not the only one getting special treatment. 

I give credit where I believe it's due. I have high standards, didn't I mention that already? :kitteh:

In all seriousness though, he typed me correctly as ESFP....I'll give him that.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Kintsugi said:


> In all seriousness though, *he typed me correctly as ESFP*....I'll give him that.


Exactly my point.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Figure_

Yeah, I did type as a 6 for ages, so it's still one of my "possibilities". However, I don't really relate to the whole questioning "authority" thing, being focused on other peoples "motives", or the need for a belief system. Honestly, I have low self esteem because of certain life experiences and traumas, coupled with pathological social anxiety. I wonder how much of these factors make me seem more superego heavy. 

A few questions (anyone can chip in if they want);

1. What is the difference between general low self-esteem vs 6s self-doubt/inability to trust their "inner guidance" (or whatever it's called, lol).

2. What is this "existential anxiety" I hear people talking about all the time in the 6 forums, and how is this different from social anxiety/phobia, GAD, etc?

3. What does the term "reactive" mean in Enneagram language, and in what ways is a 6 "reactive"?

Thanks in advance. :kitteh:


EDIT: I always thought I was a 6 but then everyone I have spoken with on Skype and I have asked about what they thought my type was have said that I don't seem like a core 6 and that I more likely a frustration type.....which makes this even more confusing. >_>

I might dig out my old 6 hat and try that on for a while again. I liked that hat.


----------



## Paradigm

Kintsugi said:


> However, I don't really relate to the whole questioning "authority" thing, being focused on other peoples "motives", or the need for a belief system.


Yeah, me neither.

- If I don't agree with "authority," I tend to just ignore it rather than fight it. 

- I think it takes too much energy to be constantly trying to figure out the motives of others. I'll easily keep an eye on it if they give me a reason to, but til then I take people at face value.

- ...Well, this stereotype should be crushed by now, and it's sad it's not. From a recent post of mine:
_"I don't hold an ego ideal of being loyal to a person. I guess you could say I 'enjoy' being loyal to a cause, but it's not a specific cause. It's more of a personal philosophy which isn't able to be defined. I'm loyal to what I see as right, not to any creed."_​


> 2. What is this "existential anxiety" I hear people talking about all the time in the 6 forums, and how is this different from social anxiety/phobia, GAD, etc?


http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...t-does-type-6-anxiety-actually-feel-like.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...-fear-normal-fear-understanding-type-6-a.html



> 3. What does the term "reactive" mean in Enneagram language, and in what ways is a 6 "reactive"?


http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/127307-reactive-types-4-6-8-a.html


----------



## Paradigm

Kintsugi said:


> Basically...I believe I must be some kind of frustration type. I'm pretty sure I'm triple-frustration, actually. I'm just not sure what order the numbers go in (although 4 is probably last as I relate least to this).


Oh and fwiw, as a 6w7-1-4... The frustration triad is the one I relate to the most. Possibly even more than I relate to Superego (...possibly). 

My life is characterized by resentment, I swear :laughing:

Went into why I don't type as 1w9 somewhat recently in this thread, if you want to look for it.


----------



## Entropic

To go through all this:



Kintsugi said:


> @_Entropic_
> 
> You kind of lost me there I'm afraid, lol.
> 
> I _think _your point was (correct me if I'm wrong) that people focus too much on behaviors when really they should be looking more closely at motivations, etc? And that there are many different variables that can influence behavior in any given type?
> 
> Well, I don't disagree with you there. However, I do think there _are _definite patterns between certain behaviors and particular types. I think if we all just said, "well, any type can display any kind of behavior," it would be rather difficult to come up with a reliable objective categorization system that can be used to help type people; turning it instead into a system where it was about typing people according to a more personal/subjective understanding and interpretation of what each core motivation means. And that tends to make things kinda messy.
> 
> This is why I wonder if Enneagram is best used as an introspection tool only.


I totally get you with that, and I am not saying there is _no_ correlation. I think the real problem, in the case of the point Figure rose is, how strong is the actual statistical correlation between A and B so we can say that A is in fact, the cause of B? I do think that as a whole, there are commonalities in what makes certain types. In socionics there are several dichotomies and a plethora of subsystems e.g. clubs, that attempt to address the directly outwards manifestation of the type, and these observations are made because there is clearly a statistical correlation between the two. I also think there are correlations between cognitive types and enneatypes, though I'd be happy to collect a large enough sample size to really validate this, as my current data is small and may be prone to bias. However, the data I do have, does indicate certain patterns that isn't entirely against certain stereotypes e.g. Pe doms and type 7. 

The problem is when we try to backtrack behavior in order to figure out its cause through reverse engineering and with that draw an underlying assumption that A <> B. All I'm trying to suggest here is that there is simply also a great individual variance to be had, and that the human psyche is clearly much more complex than any of these theories we profess to understand on this forum, and there are ways these theories which are only a few out of all the theories that pertain to explaining the nature of the human psyche, cover a very meager aspect of what it is to be human. This also ignoring the fact of how these theories can create a very complex interplay e.g. a type 1 INTJ will base their morals on Fi logic and their inability to let go would relate to inferior Se. As an example. 



Uruk Hai said:


> @_Entropic_ @_Kintsugi_ @_TheProphetLaLa_
> 
> And actually, while we're on this line of thought...I can in fact imagine impulsiveness in a Type 1, in particular a gut drive to "Correct" someone's behavior (though this is in particular Sx 1 I think). Sx 1s show their moral perfection in a countertypical way, not just by meeting duties but by doing intense/crazy shit in the name of a cause. "If I truly believe in my morals, then I should be willing to throw my life away for them", almost (maybe that's a little too extreme).
> 
> So in a weird way I can see Se-dominance and Sx 1 as suited to each other, forming an archetype of that guy that just can't resist beating up that asshole punk who hit his girlfriend. Which is definitely an impulsive act. :tongue:


I don't even think it has to be just sx 1, but I think it works as well with sp or so. Take type 6, another superego type, that can also gain hiccups pertaining to self-control and monitoring including a need to be perfect (though more perhaps, in the 3-ish sense of the word). People don't think it's such an impossibility to be a type 6 and X cognitive type because there is also this stereotype that 6 is the most diverse and common type and has gotten this idea of "one-size-fits-all" logic applied to it. I don't think it really works that way, and the bottom line is that whatever underlying cognitive logic there is between an ESFP 6 can easily be carried over to an ESFP 1. 



TheProphetLaLa said:


> Not exactly. Sounds more like there's some grudges being held. *Not that I blame you, the first time I interacted with @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=39512" target="_blank">Entropic</a></i></span> dearest I wanted to bitch slap him into another dimension. *


LOL. Sorry, it's not the first time people think I'm a dick when they get to know me. 



> But you have to give him credit where credit is due. He's good at typing. Objectively speaking. *Now like we said the purpose of MBTI and enneagram is in the end introspection, so there's only so much even a good typer can tell you about yourself*.


I do agree with that, as much as I think I am pretty good at reading between the lines and get a feel for what goes on in people's heads, there's a limit to my ability to read in what's not quite there, as I must still operate with what is present in order to fill in the gaps. The less that is there, or the more muddied it is, the harder it will be. Some people have minds that are like sponges or blobs, very amorphous and without any real solid shape. These are pretty difficult to get a feel for since it doesn't matter how I try to turn it around, because all I see is the same thing. Other people got very neatly structured psyches; it's like trying to get rid of weed where you start pulling in one end and then you pull up the entire root system that can go very far and deep, way beyond what is immediately observable. Also, as a whole, of course, the more you express yourself, the more data there is to work with. Some people can get quite concerned over that the data must, at least in terms of cognitive type, be relevant to something with their cognition; at least I don't work that way when I type. I find that when people are themselves and pick out what to speak about naturally, they will eventually reveal who they are, since we naturally gravitate towards what feels the most comfortable for us. 

Anyway, as an aside. 



Figure said:


> Nobody here has said it is impossible, nor is anyone debating the theory structures in contrast. I am saying it is highly unlikely and deserves scrutinization, and it is beyond unrealistic to sit around and assume because anything is possible, the correct type is the unlikely option.


It's not so much whether anything is possible, as much as it's to do with scrutinizing one's own underlying assumptions about what correlations there are. I am not that kind of relativist despite coming from the post-modernist school of thought. It is equally bad to perpetuate stereotypes because they seem like "tried and true" and "established" without questioning whether they really are, as much as it is to discard everything and say "anything is possible" and disregarding everything in favor of one's own current interpretation of reality. Both are extreme examples of erroneous methodological thought. 



Kintsugi said:


> 1. What is the difference between general low self-esteem vs 6s self-doubt/inability to trust their "inner guidance" (or whatever it's called, lol).


All the types can suffer from low self-esteem obviously. Not unique to 6s. The difference is _how_ the types experience their low self-esteem, which is expressed through their own type logic and neurotic patterns e.g. a...

1 would harp over their sense of being wrong, flawed, imperfect;
2 would harp over their lack of being lovable;
3 would harp over their lack of depth, a sense of being shallow and hollow;
4 would harp over their flaws, what sets them apart from everyone else, how they are so different;
5 would probably harp over their lack of action, sense of frailty;
6 would harp over their lack of strength, courage, power;
7 would harp over inability to do something proper, to really try and pull real effort and how they are not going anywhere;
8 would harp over their inner sense of badness;
9 would harp over their sense of lack of value. 

EDIT
This song is a good example of how low self-esteem can manifest in type 1:








> 2. What is this "existential anxiety" I hear people talking about all the time in the 6 forums, and how is this different from social anxiety/phobia, GAD, etc?


The difference is that existential anxiety is more of a mentality, an outlook. I linked you Stanford Encyclopedia's description in the past, and it still holds true. Existential anxiety does not need to be an actually felt and experienced anxiety. 



> 3. What does the term "reactive" mean in Enneagram language, and in what ways is a 6 "reactive"?


Reactive refers to "emotional realness" in order to unveil people's true motivations, desires etc., by seeing how others react to you and how willing they are to mirror your reactions. Essentially, it's just reacting on your emotions lol. You are emotionally reactive, and you know where people stand in relation to you and what they think and feel about you or the situation depending on how willing they are to react to you in turn. Putting it in a more practical example in relation to type 6, a 6 may for example when feeling upset in a relationship, pull the stunt of telling the other person to leave them alone but internally feeling that they do want the person to stick around. This is a way of testing the partner to see whether they truly will stick around or not, since someone who sticks around after being told to leave is deemed as "trustworthy". The other two reactive types got similar quirks. 



> People whose dominant Harmonic Style is the reactive style are emotionally reactive under stress. They tend to work themselves up when a problem happens and have a hard time containing their feelings. This emotional intensity allows them to feel the "realness" of the problem, even if it is a relatively small one. Venting their frustration allows them to move on to dealing with the issue. Wanting others to see the realness of the problem, they expect others to react emotionally. Such a reaction would confirm that others agree that indeed this is a big deal. If others don't respond in the way the Reactive Style types want, they may become even more frustrated and emotional.
> 
> The Reactive Style types do not naturally trust others. They have strong opinions and tastes and want to know where others stand.
> 
> Their desire for a strong emotional response from others may be a test of trust.
> 
> Fours
> 
> Fours can get into conflicts by being overly moody, temperamental and self-absorbed. Fours tend to have (over-) dramatic reactions to problems. They need to process and internalize their experiences. Identity and emotional reactions are highly intertwined in a Four. Fours tend to withdraw into their imagination, where problems often escalate into feelings of despair and hopelessness. Fours want to be emotionally open with and trust others, but more so with very close people. Their emotional guard is down so they can let others in.
> 
> Sixes
> 
> Sixes can get into conflict by being too pessimistic, suspicious, and doubtful. Sixes tend to be very anxious people. They are always on the watch for dangers and threats. When conflicts or threats occur, their anxiety comes out, often as long rants, hysterical overreactions, and feelings of inferiority. Sixes want to trust others (and others often put their faith in Sixes), but remain wary of problems. Sometimes they let their guard down (when within the confines of the authority/belief). Other times, they keep their guard up to ensure that others do not take advantage of them.
> 
> Eights
> 
> Eights can get into conflict by being too willful, defiant and confrontational. Eights tend to not censor their own impulses or emotional reactions. Eights want to feel the realness of conflict to give themselves a stronger sense of being. When conflicts occur, Eights are very quick to challenge and confront them. Eights keep their guard up all the time and want to minimize their dependence on (and trust in) others. They do not want others to see their vulnerable side.





> EDIT: I always thought I was a 6 but then everyone I have spoken with on Skype and I have asked about what they thought my type was have said that I don't seem like a core 6 and that I more likely a frustration type.....which makes this even more confusing. >_>


I retain type 7. I do not at all see you as a 1, because you are much too fluid and too unwilling to ever be caught in a place or to truly commit which is far more symptomatic of 7 than it is 1 or 6. A general impression I have of you is that you always want to keep your options open in case of there being something more desirable showing up. It's 7 logic in a nutshell, the fear of being caught or trapped in one place.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Paradigm_

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

@_Entropic_



> All I'm trying to suggest here is that there is simply also a great individual variance to be had, and that the human psyche is clearly much more complex than any of these theories we profess to understand on this forum, and there are ways these theories which are only a few out of all the theories that pertain to explaining the nature of the human psyche, cover a very meager aspect of what it is to be human. This also ignoring the fact of how these theories can create a very complex interplay e.g. a type 1 INTJ will base their morals on Fi logic and their inability to let go would relate to inferior Se. As an example.


I agree.



> All the types can suffer from low self-esteem obviously. Not unique to 6s. The difference is _how the types experience their low self-esteem, which is expressed through their own type logic and neurotic patterns e.g. a...
> 
> 1 would harp over their sense of being wrong, flawed, imperfect;
> 2 would harp over their lack of being lovable;
> 3 would harp over their lack of depth, a sense of being shallow and hollow;
> 4 would harp over their flaws, what sets them apart from everyone else, how they are so different;
> 5 would probably harp over their lack of action, sense of frailty;
> 6 would harp over their lack of strength, courage, power;
> 7 would harp over inability to do something proper, to really try and pull real effort and how they are not going anywhere;
> 8 would harp over their inner sense of badness;
> 9 would harp over their sense of lack of value_


I relate to 7 the most out of these, with 4 coming in at a close second. 6 and 1 also work but 7 is most accurate.

I feel like whenever I bring up my anxiety or low self esteem I get typed as 6, lol. I'm not in any position to judge whether that's right or wrong (as my understanding is very shallow); but it seems a little hasty to type someone based off this alone. There is something about the way I behave that screams 6 though because a lot of people see it in me. I have no idea why. I also get confused about "normal superego" verses "superego type." I mean, we all have a superego...right? 



> The difference is that existential anxiety is more of a mentality, an outlook. I linked you Stanford Encyclopedia's description in the past, and it still holds true. Existential anxiety does not need to be an actually felt and experienced anxiety.


I did attempt to read that description and I got distracted pretty quickly. Short attention span. 

My anxiety is very much felt and I'm pretty sure it's a separate issue unrelated to type. I've had to take medication for it in the past (and I do have a tendency to self-medicate with alcohol to help get me through certain social situations).



> Reactive refers to "emotional realness" in order to unveil people's true motivations, desires etc., by seeing how others react to you and how willing they are to mirror your reactions. Essentially, it's just reacting on your emotions lol. You are emotionally reactive, and you know where people stand in relation to you and what they think and feel about you or the situation depending on how willing they are to react to you in turn. Putting it in a more practical example in relation to type 6, a 6 may for example when feeling upset in a relationship, pull the stunt of telling the other person to leave them alone but internally feeling that they do want the person to stick around. This is a way of testing the partner to see whether they truly will stick around or not, since someone who sticks around after being told to leave is deemed as "trustworthy". The other two reactive types got similar quirks.


Yeah, I don't really relate to this at all. I actually find it hard to deal with people who act like this, especially during conflict, as I tend to want to stay as objective and neutral as possible. I kind of get irritated quickly by overly dramatic displays of emotion. I also had a look at the link on reactive types that @_Paradigm_ posted and I didn't relate to that either.

When I get upset I usually want the person to piss off so I can be alone and forget about it and distract myself, lol. Conflict can be frustrating for me because if it goes on too long I start to feel suffocated and trapped. I hate it when people ask me what I'm feeling, because often, I really don't know as I tend to suppress a lot of negative emotion. Actually, a recent experience where I fell out with a friend and when we were making up they expressed that they felt bothered by the fact that I seemed emotionless during a tense conversation where issues had been brought up and discussed. I felt they wanted some kind of emotional reaction from me whereas I kind of detached (as I usually do) and tried to ease the situation by goofing around a little and cracking jokes. Also, I have to admit, when someone says I've done something wrong, like hurt their feelings, my reaction is usually, "What?! That's not my problem....you deal with it, they are your emotions!" Other peoples emotions are really hard for me to accept. I swear if I wasn't self-aware I'd end up invalidating people all the time. >_>



> I retain type 7. I do not at all see you as a 1, because you are much too fluid and too unwilling to ever be caught in a place or to truly commit which is far more symptomatic of 7 than it is 1 or 6. A general impression I have of you is that you always want to keep your options open in case of there being something more desirable showing up. It's 7 logic in a nutshell, the fear of being caught or trapped in one place.


Yeah. You could be right, I really have no idea anymore, lol.

I need to deepen my understanding of Enneagram, basically.


----------



## Figure

Kintsugi said:


> @_Figure_
> 
> Yeah, I did type as a 6 for ages, so it's still one of my "possibilities". However, I don't really relate to the whole questioning "authority" thing, being focused on other peoples "motives", or the need for a belief system. Honestly, I have low self esteem because of certain life experiences and traumas, coupled with pathological social anxiety. I wonder how much of these factors make me seem more superego heavy.





> 1. What is the difference between general low self-esteem vs 6s self-doubt/inability to trust their "inner guidance" (or whatever it's called, lol).


6's aren't born with low esteem because they are 6's, and most healthy 6's may have perfectly fine self-esteem. 

For type 6, the worldview (conscious or not) is rooted in cynicism. People are self-serving, situations are not certain, and I don't really know if there is enough proof to show that it isn't that way. 6's have trouble feeling _exactly_ sure because of their _own_ personal grounding, which leaves them with little to be sure of inside of themselves. When you really think about a fact, or something someone else has told you - what if it isn't true? How do they know it's true? How do I know they didn't have their own interests involved in telling me that? What if something contradicts it, and it no longer seems as true as it seemed before? And so on. 

Although this skepticism and cynical precedent is painful for 6's, it doesn't automatically give them low self esteem. There are definitely unhealthy, isolated 6's out there who question everything other people say yet have absolutely no sense of stability in their own minds who we'd say likely have low self esteem. But there is a great number of 6's who are just as unsure and questioning, just to a moderate degree while going about their normal lives with normal self value. The accurate thing to say 6's share is the tendency to undercut their own sureness, not that they have low esteem. 




> 2. What is this "existential anxiety" I hear people talking about all the time in the 6 forums, and how is this different from social anxiety/phobia, GAD, etc?


Kind of like what I outlined above. To be a 6 you definitely don't have to philosophize about what is true and what is not. However, the "existential" idea is that there is no real truth in the world, and for 6's it causes great anxiety not to know for sure. No other type fixates on not knowing for sure in this way. 

I'm not really a good one to ask on actual psychological disorders, but to guess, the difference would be again, 6's anxiety stemming from their mental habits (which all 6's share) of questioning. 



> 3. What does the term "reactive" mean in Enneagram language, and in what ways is a 6 "reactive"?


The Reactive triad (4, 6, 8) is responsive when there is a problem, and want other people to respond emotionally in some way to their awareness of the problem. They like to get reactions out of others, and they like to have their concerns or real emotions mirrored. Competency types will depersonalize these situations and focus on tasks, goals, instead of the real emotion; Positive Outlook types will shift attention away from the fact there is a problem and focus on what is pleasant or positive about it. 

I once read an example of a 4 child running under her bed after arguing with her parents, and wanting her parents to come seek her out from hiding. I have worked with 8's, and noticed that when they feel there is an issue, they grow more and more angry when other people don't match their intensity. 6's, in keeping with the "wanting a reaction" theme, can seek other people out for guidance when they are unsure (wanting confirmation, etc). They also tend to seek others when they are aware of a problem and think others should be warned of it and also be concerned. For more CP 6's, there is also a habit of being pushy or challenging to others, and testing to see how the other person responds to it. 



> EDIT: I always thought I was a 6 but then everyone I have spoken with on Skype and I have asked about what they thought my type was have said that I don't seem like a core 6 and that I more likely a frustration type.....which makes this even more confusing. >_>


What do YOU think you are? 

I definitely don't expect you to go around and change your type to 6 just because I really think it's what your type is. You really have to catch it happening in your own mental space and in that sense you are absolutely correct, that it is a better tool for self-work than it is as a casual identification game as we use MBTI. 

Your last couple of posts definitely contain 6-ish, or at least Head type themes. 6 could be your core, or it could be your wing, or I could be misidentifying and not have enough information (as hard as that is to imagine ). It's definitely, again, worth trying that hat on again, I think it looks good on you 

6 vs. 7 is an entirely different conversation. My main goal was to steer you away from 1, which just does not fit given what you've written.


----------



## mushr00m

Figure said:


> 6's aren't born with low esteem because they are 6's, and most healthy 6's may have perfectly fine self-esteem.
> For type 6, the worldview (conscious or not) is rooted in cynicism. People are self-serving, situations are not certain, and I don't really know if there is enough proof to show that it isn't that way. 6's have trouble feeling _exactly_ sure because of their _own_ personal grounding, which leaves them with little to be sure of inside of themselves. When you really think about a fact, or something someone else has told you - what if it isn't true? How do they know it's true? How do I know they didn't have their own interests involved in telling me that? What if something contradicts it, and it no longer seems as true as it seemed before? And so on.
> Although this skepticism and cynical precedent is painful for 6's, it doesn't automatically give them low self esteem. There are definitely unhealthy, isolated 6's out there who question everything other people say yet have absolutely no sense of stability in their own minds who we'd say likely have low self esteem. But there is a great number of 6's who are just as unsure and questioning, just to a moderate degree while going about their normal lives with normal self value. The accurate thing to say 6's share is the tendency to undercut their own sureness, not that they have low esteem.
> Kind of like what I outlined above. To be a 6 you definitely don't have to philosophize about what is true and what is not. However, the "existential" idea is that there is no real truth in the world, and for 6's it causes great anxiety not to know for sure. No other type fixates on not knowing for sure in this way.
> I'm not really a good one to ask on actual psychological disorders, but to guess, the difference would be again, 6's anxiety stemming from their mental habits (which all 6's share) of questioning.
> The Reactive triad (4, 6, 8) is responsive when there is a problem, and want other people to respond emotionally in some way to their awareness of the problem. They like to get reactions out of others, and they like to have their concerns or real emotions mirrored. Competency types will depersonalize these situations and focus on tasks, goals, instead of the real emotion; Positive Outlook types will shift attention away from the fact there is a problem and focus on what is pleasant or positive about it.
> I once read an example of a 4 child running under her bed after arguing with her parents, and wanting her parents to come seek her out from hiding. I have worked with 8's, and noticed that when they feel there is an issue, they grow more and more angry when other people don't match their intensity. 6's, in keeping with the "wanting a reaction" theme, can seek other people out for guidance when they are unsure (wanting confirmation, etc). They also tend to seek others when they are aware of a problem and think others should be warned of it and also be concerned. For more CP 6's, there is also a habit of being pushy or challenging to others, and testing to see how the other person responds to it.
> What do YOU think you are?
> I definitely don't expect you to go around and change your type to 6 just because I really think it's what your type is. You really have to catch it happening in your own mental space and in that sense you are absolutely correct, that it is a better tool for self-work than it is as a casual identification game as we use MBTI.
> Your last couple of posts definitely contain 6-ish, or at least Head type themes. 6 could be your core, or it could be your wing, or I could be misidentifying and not have enough information (as hard as that is to imagine ). It's definitely, again, worth trying that hat on again, I think it looks good on you


Couldn't have put it better ^^


----------



## Kintsugi

Figure said:


> 6's aren't born with low esteem because they are 6's, and most healthy 6's may have perfectly fine self-esteem.
> 
> For type 6, the worldview (conscious or not) is rooted in cynicism. People are self-serving, situations are not certain, and I don't really know if there is enough proof to show that it isn't that way. 6's have trouble feeling _exactly_ sure because of their _own_ personal grounding, which leaves them with little to be sure of inside of themselves. When you really think about a fact, or something someone else has told you - what if it isn't true? How do they know it's true? How do I know they didn't have their own interests involved in telling me that? What if something contradicts it, and it no longer seems as true as it seemed before? And so on.
> 
> Although this skepticism and cynical precedent is painful for 6's, it doesn't automatically give them low self esteem. There are definitely unhealthy, isolated 6's out there who question everything other people say yet have absolutely no sense of stability in their own minds who we'd say likely have low self esteem. But there is a great number of 6's who are just as unsure and questioning, just to a moderate degree while going about their normal lives with normal self value. The accurate thing to say 6's share is the tendency to undercut their own sureness, not that they have low esteem.


hmm. I feel sure about a lot of things, lol. I can be pretty damn stubborn when I want to be. XD

Honestly, I really wouldn't say my worldview was rooted in cynicism; sure, I like to practice my critical thinking skills, but that is a fairly new development. I'm trying to muscle up my xNTJ side. 

Bare in mind that I am a lonely lil Se-dom on a forum full of big-bad intuitives (mainly Ne-types). I end up questioning _a lot _here, because so much of what I read makes my brain hurt, lol.



> Kind of like what I outlined above. To be a 6 you definitely don't have to philosophize about what is true and what is not. However, the "existential" idea is that there is no real truth in the world, and for 6's it causes great anxiety not to know for sure. No other type fixates on not knowing for sure in this way.
> 
> I'm not really a good one to ask on actual psychological disorders, but to guess, the difference would be again, 6's anxiety stemming from their mental habits (which all 6's share) of questioning.


I'm actually perfectly happy with the concept that there is no real "truth". I find it comforting, in a weird way. when I consider that it reminds me of the importance of perspective and how our world is basically our construct. 

Well, social anxiety _kind of _stems from questioning, I guess. Although it's more about dysfunctional mental feedback loops and unhealthy core beliefs, etc.



> The Reactive triad (4, 6, 8) is responsive when there is a problem, and want other people to respond emotionally in some way to their awareness of the problem. They like to get reactions out of others, and they like to have their concerns or real emotions mirrored. Competency types will depersonalize these situations and focus on tasks, goals, instead of the real emotion; Positive Outlook types will shift attention away from the fact there is a problem and focus on what is pleasant or positive about it.
> 
> I once read an example of a 4 child running under her bed after arguing with her parents, and wanting her parents to come seek her out from hiding. I have worked with 8's, and noticed that when they feel there is an issue, they grow more and more angry when other people don't match their intensity. 6's, in keeping with the "wanting a reaction" theme, can seek other people out for guidance when they are unsure (wanting confirmation, etc). They also tend to seek others when they are aware of a problem and think others should be warned of it and also be concerned. For more CP 6's, there is also a habit of being pushy or challenging to others, and testing to see how the other person responds to it.


Going by what you have written above I would say that I relate most to positive outlook, competency, and reactive last. Actually, I think I tend to idealize competency types. They seem to embody all the traits I wish I were better at.



> What do YOU think you are?


I'm just me, lol. And I don't like being told WHO I am or WHAT to do. XD

Honestly, I think I'm a head-type. Which is what I've always suspected (until the other day when I had an "OMG....I'm a 1!" moment ).



> _*I definitely don't expect you to go around and change your type to 6 just because I really think it's what your type is. You really have to catch it happening in your own mental space and in that sense you are absolutely correct, that it is a better tool for self-work than it is as a casual identification game as we use MBTI. *_
> 
> Your last couple of posts definitely contain 6-ish, or at least Head type themes. 6 could be your core, or it could be your wing, or I could be misidentifying and not have enough information (as hard as that is to imagine ). It's definitely, again, worth trying that hat on again, I think it looks good on you
> 
> 6 vs. 7 is an entirely different conversation. My main goal was to steer you away from 1, which just does not fit given what you've written.


Agree with the bold. Tbh, I just need help understanding it more than typing myself at this point. ^_^

Yeah, it's between 6 and 7 right now. Sorry 1, it's over!


----------



## Figure

Kintsugi said:


> hmm. I feel sure about a lot of things, lol. I can be pretty damn stubborn when I want to be. XD


So can CP 6's! That said, and 7's, and 1's. 



> Honestly, I think I'm a head-type. Which is what I've always suspected (until the other day when I had an "OMG....I'm a 1!" moment ).


Yeah, I agree with that. I actually had thought you were a 7 until the "inner critic" shebang, which still screams influence of 6 to me and made that type very well worth fleshing out, even if you later end up finding it is your wing, or there is a subtle difference between what you do and what 6 does. 

6 and 7 are tricky to flesh apart; another day 



TheProphetLaLa said:


> Could you explain this more in detail or more clearly? I don't understand it.
> 
> Also, is lecturing a necessary trait for a 1 or So 7? I don't lecture a lot.


I did not forget about this question. 

Lecturing can be characteristic of both 1 and 7. On the whole, 1's are stereotyped as lecturing more than 7's, and it's more often described as a more habitual trait for 1's, whereas for 7's it's more when they are stressed. 

Despite all the raw-raw-ing of how 7s come across, 7 is actually a very frustrated, barren, empty type inside. As a Frustration type they experience the same sense of lacking as 1's and 4's, but their strategy to cope with that is to go into their fantasies and give whatever is negative a flashy, positively-framed, pleasing frame, as a distraction from feeling whatever is painful directly. This distraction doesn't always work, however, and 7's can sometimes frame these feelings of frustration as constructive criticism, trying to "help" or "give better options" to other people. I've been "lectured" by a 7 once that I really should not buy a Mac computer, because they customize everything for you and it's way better to do it yourself. A 7 I worked with once told me I should "ask more questions" because "we're family, and that's how I learned everything I know." Another once scolded me for "being mean, that person isn't that bad" when really I was just speaking my mind. 

By and large, a 7's criticisms are rarely full blown lectures, and they typically involve a positive frame around them. Criticism from a 1 typically contains a much more rigid, convicted, adversarial attitude. It isn't "you should do what's more positive," it's "you are wrong" or "you are ignorant" or "you are (place judgment here)." If a 1 is lecturing you, it's probably because they've been viscerally irritated for a very long time and can no longer hold it inside. If a 7 is lecturing you, they are likely manic, frazzled and losing their sense of okayness with their world.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Figure said:


> So can CP 6's! That said, and 7's, and 1's.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I agree with that. I actually had thought you were a 7 until the "inner critic" shebang, which still screams influence of 6 to me and made that type very well worth fleshing out, even if you later end up finding it is your wing, or there is a subtle difference between what you do and what 6 does.
> 
> 6 and 7 are tricky to flesh apart; another day
> 
> 
> 
> I did not forget about this question.
> 
> Lecturing can be characteristic of both 1 and 7. On the whole, 1's are stereotyped as lecturing more than 7's, and it's more often described as a more habitual trait for 1's, whereas for 7's it's more when they are stressed.
> 
> Despite all the raw-raw-ing of how 7s come across, 7 is actually a very frustrated, barren, empty type inside. As a Frustration type they experience the same sense of lacking as 1's and 4's, but their strategy to cope with that is to go into their fantasies and give whatever is negative a flashy, positively-framed, pleasing frame, as a distraction from feeling whatever is painful directly. This distraction doesn't always work, however, and 7's can sometimes frame these feelings of frustration as constructive criticism, trying to "help" or "give better options" to other people. I've been "lectured" by a 7 once that I really should not buy a Mac computer, because they customize everything for you and it's way better to do it yourself. A 7 I worked with once told me I should "ask more questions" because "we're family, and that's how I learned everything I know." Another once scolded me for "being mean, that person isn't that bad" when really I was just speaking my mind.
> 
> By and large, a 7's criticisms are rarely full blown lectures, and they typically involve a positive frame around them. Criticism from a 1 typically contains a much more rigid, convicted, adversarial attitude. It isn't "you should do what's more positive," it's "you are wrong" or "you are ignorant" or "you are (place judgment here)." If a 1 is lecturing you, it's probably because they've been viscerally irritated for a very long time and can no longer hold it inside. If a 7 is lecturing you, they are likely manic, frazzled and losing their sense of okayness with their world.


Interesting. Out of the two examples you gave I identify more with the enneagram 1 type of lecturing although I don't really see that as lecturing per se. For me lecturing takes on a more lofty "you should fold your napkins like this" attitude which I definitely don't have. 

Something that makes me question my typing at 1 is that all in all I'm not a judgmental person. For example, if someone told me they were a drug addict I wouldn't turn my nose up at them or get angry whatsoever, even though thats not a lifestyle I would choose for myself. In fact, even if its the absolute opposite of a lifestyle I would choose for myself it still doesn't bother me. It would bother me much more if someone was trying to force their way of living onto others, even if I agreed with that way of living myself.

My anger comes from people's ideas/judgements or interactions with each other. For example, if someone were to say "Men who are virgins are losers." or "I don't date women who are promiscuous because I don't like sluts.", it would anger me far more than someone who was actually promiscuous. Or when I perceive people to be bullying a person who I believe has done no wrong. Or insulting someone without provocatoin. Or being unfair in their accusations. These things anger me. Not whether someone decides to smoke on the third Wednesday of October. 

As a matter of fact, it doesn't even necessarily anger me when someone breaks the law. If someone was caught speeding I wouldn't care. It wouldn't make me angry. 

What are the things that anger you as a 1? Where does a 1's anger come from that is specific to enneagram 1's?


----------



## Figure

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Interesting. Out of the two examples you gave I identify more with the enneagram 1 type of lecturing although I don't really see that as lecturing per se. For me lecturing takes on a more lofty "you should fold your napkins like this" attitude which I definitely don't have.


Yeah, neither do I. It's more that other people tend to see it as sermonizing or lecturing. 



> Something that makes me question my typing at 1 is that all in all I'm not a judgmental person. For example, if someone told me they were a drug addict I wouldn't turn my nose up at them or get angry whatsoever, even though thats not a lifestyle I would choose for myself. In fact, even if its the absolute opposite of a lifestyle I would choose for myself it still doesn't bother me. It would bother me much more if someone was trying to force their way of living onto others, even if I agreed with that way of living myself.


That would definitely be cause to re-examine your type - however, bearing in mind 1 is also a self-forgetting type and may not have a very well-developed self-image. If a 1 sees themselves as "good," they may reject the notion of themselves being judgmental. I certainly did that at first, even despite a close friend having once told me "the looks you give when I say something make me feel like I'm in a court trial." It actually took awhile for me to notice what I think is "judging," and not just thinking. 

In your example, I would be lying to say I would not have to put away an immediate thought that, "you're a drug addict? Something was or is wrong with you." It would just be the first thing that pops into my head. Shortly after that, I'd tell myself that is completely off base to think and stop, but judgmentalism for 1's is uncontrollable. It happens right away, almost like reflex. 



> My anger comes from people's ideas/judgements or interactions with each other. For example, if someone were to say "Men who are virgins are losers." or "I don't date women who are promiscuous because I don't like sluts.", it would anger me far more than someone who was actually promiscuous. Or when I perceive people to be bullying a person who I believe has done no wrong. Or insulting someone without provocatoin. Or being unfair in their accusations. These things anger me. Not whether someone decides to smoke on the third Wednesday of October.
> 
> As a matter of fact, it doesn't even necessarily anger me when someone breaks the law. If someone was caught speeding I wouldn't care. It wouldn't make me angry.
> 
> What are the things that anger you as a 1? Where does a 1's anger come from that is specific to enneagram 1's?


Those are definitely more conventional sources for anger. I think a lot of people/types, 1's and myself included, would be angered by those things. 

When people talk about "anger" in the enneagram, for 1's is a code word of sorts. Usually when we think of "anger," we think of getting mad at someone or at a situation like you have described above, and these things can certainly rouse a 1's anger very quickly (particularly Sx 1's). In enneagram code language, though, "anger" for 1's is more than just a reactive emotion to a situation, which any type can feel. Much like we talk about existential anxiety for 6's, existential anger is true of 1's - just, instead of nothing being truly certain, for 1's nothing is ever good enough. It's not so much about having a set of things other people that anger you; it's a full blown mentality that nearly everything in some way is unacceptable and should be changed. When this is your go-to mental state, as it is for 1's, you end up noticing that a LOT in your world needs to be changed, which can be very frustrating. 

I definitely experience anger in a ton of different ways. Most often, it's low grade annoyance at stupid things like the way someone says something, or why the car on the freeway felt the need to tail me while I'm going 20 mph over the speed limit, or that the person in the room below is running on a treadmill loudly. Sometimes, it's frustration that I'm not doing a good enough job at something, or not far ahead enough in life. Other times, it's just feeling really, really intensely convicted that something is right and everything else is wrong, this must be done, and damnit I'm the holder of the truth, and let's do what needs to be done. Other times still, I get more "conventional" meltdown anger, which is more actually raising my voice, yelling, possibly "seeing red" and flying off the handle (though usually away from other people). I really, really, really try hard to not do that, but sometimes, especially if I'm in a stressful environment and resent the person I'm interacting with, it's uncontainable. Most of the time, other than paying close attention to my body, facial gestures, and comments you can't really tell I'm frustrated, and very often I may not even realize I am either. And that's indicative of the MOST important anger for type 1, anger at being angry, and completely restraining oneself because it's not okay to let one's instinctual urges flow freely. 

People on this forum really romanticize passionate anger and being fiery, but to me it's really exhausting. It's a lot more than just having opinions on things and judging others, or acting like Judge Judy which actually sounds kind of fun. When it's the passion of your type as a 1, it feels really threatening to think of what you are holding under the surface.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Figure said:


> Yeah, neither do I. It's more that other people tend to see it as sermonizing or lecturing.
> 
> 
> 
> That would definitely be cause to re-examine your type - however, bearing in mind 1 is also a self-forgetting type and may not have a very well-developed self-image. If a 1 sees themselves as "good," they may reject the notion of themselves being judgmental. I certainly did that at first, even despite a close friend having once told me "the looks you give when I say something make me feel like I'm in a court trial." It actually took awhile for me to notice what I think is "judging," and not just thinking.
> 
> In your example, I would be lying to say I would not have to put away an immediate thought that, "you're a drug addict? Something was or is wrong with you." It would just be the first thing that pops into my head. Shortly after that, I'd tell myself that is completely off base to think and stop, but judgmentalism for 1's is uncontrollable. It happens right away, almost like reflex.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are definitely more conventional sources for anger. I think a lot of people/types, 1's and myself included, would be angered by those things.
> 
> When people talk about "anger" in the enneagram, for 1's is a code word of sorts. Usually when we think of "anger," we think of getting mad at someone or at a situation like you have described above, and these things can certainly rouse a 1's anger very quickly (particularly Sx 1's). In enneagram code language, though, "anger" for 1's is more than just a reactive emotion to a situation, which any type can feel. Much like we talk about existential anxiety for 6's, existential anger is true of 1's - just, instead of nothing being truly certain, for 1's nothing is ever good enough. It's not so much about having a set of things other people that anger you; it's a full blown mentality that nearly everything in some way is unacceptable and should be changed. When this is your go-to mental state, as it is for 1's, you end up noticing that a LOT in your world needs to be changed, which can be very frustrating.
> 
> I definitely experience anger in a ton of different ways. Most often, it's low grade annoyance at stupid things like the way someone says something, or why the car on the freeway felt the need to tail me while I'm going 20 mph over the speed limit, or that the person in the room below is running on a treadmill loudly. Sometimes, it's frustration that I'm not doing a good enough job at something, or not far ahead enough in life. Other times, it's just feeling really, really intensely convicted that something is right and everything else is wrong, this must be done, and damnit I'm the holder of the truth, and let's do what needs to be done. Other times still, I get more "conventional" meltdown anger, which is more actually raising my voice, yelling, possibly "seeing red" and flying off the handle (though usually away from other people). I really, really, really try hard to not do that, but sometimes, especially if I'm in a stressful environment and resent the person I'm interacting with, it's uncontainable. Most of the time, other than paying close attention to my body, facial gestures, and comments you can't really tell I'm frustrated, and very often I may not even realize I am either. And that's indicative of the MOST important anger for type 1, anger at being angry, and completely restraining oneself because it's not okay to let one's instinctual urges flow freely.
> 
> People on this forum really romanticize passionate anger and being fiery, but to me it's really exhausting. It's a lot more than just having opinions on things and judging others, or acting like Judge Judy which actually sounds kind of fun. When it's the passion of your type as a 1, it feels really threatening to think of what you are holding under the surface.


Hmmm I would say I _fear_ losing control more than it makes me angry. I remember Kinstugi saying something about only being able to fully relax when drunk and to a certain extent the opposite is true of me. For example, once I get past the stage of being tipsy/giggly/uninhibited and start delving into drunk territory there comes a point when I just completely shut down because I can feel myself starting to lose control and I dislike that. The fact that I may do something I'll regret while under the influence of drugs or alcohol is terrifying to me.


----------



## Kintsugi

Figure said:


> Yeah, I agree with that. I actually had thought you were a 7 until the "inner critic" shebang, which still screams influence of 6 to me and made that type very well worth fleshing out, even if you later end up finding it is your wing, or there is a subtle difference between what you do and what 6 does.
> 
> 6 and 7 are tricky to flesh apart; another day


Yeah, I actually think 7 (with a 6 wing) is more likely at this point but I am _definitely _going to investigate further. 

Thanks for the help! ^_^



> Lecturing can be characteristic of both 1 and 7. On the whole, 1's are stereotyped as lecturing more than _*7's, and it's more often described as a more habitual trait for 1's, whereas for 7's it's more when they are stressed. *_
> 
> Despite all the raw-raw-ing of how 7s come across, _*7 is actually a very frustrated, barren, empty type inside. As a Frustration type they experience the same sense of lacking as 1's and 4's, but their strategy to cope with that is to go into their fantasies and give whatever is negative a flashy, positively-framed, pleasing frame, as a distraction from feeling whatever is painful directly. This distraction doesn't always work, however, and 7's can sometimes frame these feelings of frustration as constructive criticism, trying to "help" or "give better options" to other people. I've been "lectured" by a 7 once that I really should not buy a Mac computer, because they customize everything for you and it's way better to do it yourself. A 7 I worked with once told me I should "ask more questions" because "we're family, and that's how I learned everything I know." Another once scolded me for "being mean, that person isn't that bad" when really I was just speaking my mind. *_
> _*By and large, a 7's criticisms are rarely full blown lectures, and they typically involve a positive frame around them.*_ Criticism from a 1 typically contains a much more rigid, convicted, adversarial attitude. It isn't "you should do what's more positive," it's "you are wrong" or "you are ignorant" or "you are (place judgment here)." If a 1 is lecturing you, it's probably because they've been viscerally irritated for a very long time and can no longer hold it inside. _*If a 7 is lecturing you, they are likely manic, frazzled and losing their sense of okayness with their world*_.


The bold stuff sounds a lot like me. >_>

@_TheProphetLaLa_

I have an addictive personality. I have issues controlling myself, tbh. It would probably benefit me taking a leaf out of your book! >_>


----------



## Kisshoten

@_Kintsugi_, @_Prophet_LaLa


Hmm....
I'd like to talk about anger. I get very angry very often, but that anger can usually be phrased like this - "Why the fuck did X have to say/do that?! It's fucking messing with me here! I don't like being messed with!" <-- I'd say this is definitely frustration, and more specifically annoyance at being hindered from getting or having what was desired in the first place. 

Just today, my mother barged into my room and was like.. 'ima remove that board behind your PC because...' and I didn't want her to do that. I tried to dissuade her, but she's stubborn like that (and she has a tendency to go into 'cleaning mode' when people upset her - think marge simpson with a little more irritation). I was upset that she wanted to undo and redo everything, because it was hard to set things up the way they were at start and I didn't want to have any problems while putting things back together again. Regardless, I went along with her and when it was time to put it back together, first the display wouldn't work, then the internet wouldn't work for some reason and I was reminded of how I felt that moving things around would result in some hindrance to my 'entertainment' afterwards. 

At that moment, I felt anger and this is typically the kind of anger that affects me most often. I feel like, 'why the fuck did x have to happen! everything was fine before and now I can't...' Simply put, I'd say 7s feel anger at being denied or being inconvenienced. 

The more I am annoyed, the more need I feel to just expel all that pent up rage and eventually I either lecture someone, or I get into arguments and hurt people's feelings because I was unable to channel my anger elsewhere.

XD

lol.. m such a jerk 

No, actually, I'm a really nice person.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Vergil_

I completely relate to how you describe 7s anger at being inconvenienced, lol (you just have to go look at some of my "angrier" rants on the 7 confessions thread to see evidence of that xD).

And for me it's all about _*FRUSTRATION.

*_ I feel like I am perpetually frustrated; always unsatisfied, always yearning for more...

something better, something I don't have right now...

However, I'm not going to sit here and mope about it, no bloody way!

I'm going to try my damn hardest to go get what I desire! And I _will _succeed, because when I set my eye on something I want, it's all or nothing, baby! Watch this impulsive ball of chaotic energy focus in with laser-like intensity...

I'll prove you ALL wrong! xD

<10 minutes later>

World. You *DISAPPOINT *me. :dry:
_
(And don't get me started on the humans! )_


----------



## Kisshoten

Kintsugi said:


> @_Vergil_
> 
> I completely relate to how you describe 7s anger at being inconvenienced, lol (you just have to go look at some of my "angrier" rants on the 7 confessions thread to see evidence of that xD).
> 
> And for me it's all about _*FRUSTRATION.
> 
> *_ I feel like I am perpetually frustrated; always unsatisfied, always yearning for more...
> 
> something better, something I don't have right now...
> 
> However, I'm not going to sit here and mope about it, no bloody way!
> 
> I'm going to try my damn hardest to go get what I desire! And I _will _succeed, because when I set my eye on something I want, it's all or nothing, baby! Watch this impulsive ball of chaotic energy focus in with laser-like intensity...
> 
> I'll prove you ALL wrong! xD
> 
> <10 minutes later>
> 
> World. You *DISAPPOINT *me. :dry:
> _
> (And don't get me started on the humans! )_


kinda why I voted 7 
although I'm not insisting you listen to me


----------



## cinnabun

Figure said:


> Yeah, I agree with that. I actually had thought you were a 7 until the "inner critic" shebang,


Are you saying 7's can't be self-critical? 



Figure said:


> Lecturing can be characteristic of both 1 and 7. On the whole, 1's are stereotyped as lecturing more than 7's, and it's more often described as a more habitual trait for 1's, whereas for 7's it's more when they are stressed.
> 
> Despite all the raw-raw-ing of how 7s come across, 7 is actually a very frustrated, barren, empty type inside. As a Frustration type they experience the same sense of lacking as 1's and 4's, but their strategy to cope with that is to go into their fantasies and give whatever is negative a flashy, positively-framed, pleasing frame, as a distraction from feeling whatever is painful directly. This distraction doesn't always work, however, and 7's can sometimes frame these feelings of frustration as constructive criticism, trying to "help" or "give better options" to other people. I've been "lectured" by a 7 once that I really should not buy a Mac computer, because they customize everything for you and it's way better to do it yourself. A 7 I worked with once told me I should "ask more questions" because "we're family, and that's how I learned everything I know." Another once scolded me for "being mean, that person isn't that bad" when really I was just speaking my mind.
> 
> By and large, a 7's criticisms are rarely full blown lectures, and they typically involve a positive frame around them. Criticism from a 1 typically contains a much more rigid, convicted, adversarial attitude. It isn't "you should do what's more positive," it's "you are wrong" or "you are ignorant" or "you are (place judgment here)." If a 1 is lecturing you, it's probably because they've been viscerally irritated for a very long time and can no longer hold it inside. If a 7 is lecturing you, they are likely manic, frazzled and losing their sense of okayness with their world.


This.


----------



## cinnabun

And reading all of the 1 talk is making me think that my ISTJ mother is a core 1 rather than a core 8. 1w2 I'd say...lol, jesus. No wonder we clash so fucking much xD.


----------



## Figure

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Hmmm I would say I _fear_ losing control more than it makes me angry. I remember Kinstugi saying something about only being able to fully relax when drunk and to a certain extent the opposite is true of me. For example, once I get past the stage of being tipsy/giggly/uninhibited and start delving into drunk territory there comes a point when I just completely shut down because I can feel myself starting to lose control and I dislike that. The fact that I may do something I'll regret while under the influence of drugs or alcohol is terrifying to me.


Would you mind adding a bit to that last part? I.E. what are you terrified of? What are your main concerns as to what would happen if you "lost control?"




Rinnie said:


> Are you saying 7's can't be self-critical?


Most definitely not. 

As I understand for 7's (and you would be better to acknowledge since you ARE one!), the Superego is more of a chatty, impatient presence telling you you should be further than you are than it is a visceral, punitive push for you to do something to "be good."


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Figure said:


> Would you mind adding a bit to that last part? I.E. what are you terrified of? What are your main concerns as to what would happen if you "lost control?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most definitely not.
> 
> As I understand for 7's (and you would be better to acknowledge since you ARE one!), the Superego is more of a chatty, impatient presence telling you you should be further than you are than it is a visceral, punitive push for you to do something to "be good."


I can't really say as I've never let myself get to that point. I don't want to do something I would *regret* or something that I wouldn't do if I wasn't under the influence of said alcohol. I mean anything that people do when drunk and losing all sense of themselves. Act like a complete and utter moron. Put myself into a vulnerable situation. Throw up on someone's couch. Fall flat on my face. Sleep with someone I wouldn't normally sleep with. Get into a physical fight with someone. Anything.

That feeling of just letting go of my awareness and whatever happens happens. Yeahhhh I don't like that.


----------



## Figure

TheProphetLaLa said:


> I can't really say as I've never let myself get to that point. I don't want to do something I would *regret* or something that I wouldn't do if I wasn't under the influence of said alcohol. I mean anything that people do when drunk and losing all sense of themselves. Act like a complete and utter moron. Put myself into a vulnerable situation. Throw up on someone's couch. Fall flat on my face. Sleep with someone I wouldn't normally sleep with. Get into a physical fight with someone. Anything.
> 
> That feeling of just letting go of my awareness and whatever happens happens. Yeahhhh I don't like that.


Yeah, that makes sense. Those are definitely in some way tied to your type. 

If you, for sake of argument, throw up on someone's couch, fall on your face, get into a fight etc - however - what is it that you imagine being the problem? 




I know these are weird questions or feel strange to think about, but like we were saying the enneagram is very introspective. Each type has a unique, specific fear. After awhile, when you constantly ask yourself "why that, specifically?" you'll start to notice there is a pattern to what you are concerned about which will unravel your core fear.


----------



## cinnabun

Figure said:


> Most definitely not.
> 
> As I understand for 7's (and you would be better to acknowledge since you ARE one!), the Superego is more of a chatty, impatient presence telling you you should be further than you are than it is a visceral, punitive push for you to do something to "be good."



That's very true, but I can be really critical of myself too. That might be related to my anxiety though.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Figure said:


> Yeah, that makes sense. Those are definitely in some way tied to your type.
> 
> If you, for sake of argument, throw up on someone's couch, fall on your face, get into a fight etc - however - what is it that you imagine being the problem?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know these are weird questions or feel strange to think about, but like we were saying the enneagram is very introspective. Each type has a unique, specific fear. After awhile, when you constantly ask yourself "why that, specifically?" you'll start to notice there is a pattern to what you are concerned about which will unravel your core fear.


You're right that is a weird question and I'm not entirely sure how to answer. I think any of those activities I listed would be problematic to _anyone_ wouldn't they? All I know is if I acted in that way it would make me feel ashamed, frustrated, and/or guilty of myself depending on if I simply made a spectacular fool out of myself, was some kind of aggressor, or inconvenienced people somehow.

Also, are 1's suspicious people? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and may even seem gullible at times. Basically, I assume people will be honest, before I assume they're lying to me as I don't understand why someone would lie in the first place. But this may simply be because of the way I was raised and have nothing to do with type. I'm not entirely sure.


----------



## Kisshoten

TheProphetLaLa said:


> *You're right that is a weird question and I'm not entirely sure how to answer. I think any of those activities I listed would be problematic to anyone wouldn't they? All I know is if I acted in that way it would make me feel ashamed, frustrated, and/or guilty of myself depending on if I simply made a spectacular fool out of myself, was some kind of aggressor, or inconvenienced people somehow.*
> 
> Also, are 1's suspicious people? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and may even seem gullible at times. Basically,* I assume people will be honest, before I assume they're lying to me as I don't understand why someone would lie in the first place*. But this may simply be because of the way I was raised and have nothing to do with type. I'm not entirely sure.


Me too. 
xD


----------



## Kintsugi

@Hotaru @Figure @Vergil @Paradigm

So, I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm still not entirely confident with my choice, but...

I think I'm going to go with 6w7, for now. This is a difficult decision because on one level I actually relate more to the 7 core issues, but I think, if I go a little bit deeper then perhaps the 6-stuff makes more sense. Whether or not this is because I am currently trying to work on my anxiety and low self-esteem issues, and therefore, I'm finding it easier to relate to superego stuff is something that I'm unclear about. I would love to read more about depressed 7s or those with mental health issues but a lot of the stuff that I read seems to suggest that 7s simply just don't recognize these problems as they have a tendency to run away and escape from any form of negativity. While I admit I do have problems with this myself, I would not say I am completely cut-off from this stuff. Sure, it takes me a while to often admit I have problems, but I do get there eventually.

I'm going to try out 6 for the time being, hang around that sub-form, and see what happens. ^_^


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## Golden Rose

@Kintsugi

Glad that you settled on a type you can recognize yourself into.

I still think triple frustration, especially with the tendency 7s have to see themselves more negatively than they are sometimes and being upfront about it, wanting to fix it as soon as possible by seeking positive plans and self reassurance. But 6 is not an unlikely type for you, I'll check the 614 tritype better later and patterns between you and type 6 if you still want to discuss it.

I'm surrounded by 6s and perfectly ok with this. :blushed:

Also, if you haven't seen it already: Support thread for depressed 7s
Since you were looking for some discussion about this, it shares many different experiences.


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## Kintsugi

@_Hotaru_

I finally managed to force my bf to _properly_ look at some of the Enneagram stuff (hehe). And he says, "7 seems more likely."

NOOOOoooOOOooo! >_>

Damn you Enneagram!


----------



## Golden Rose

Kintsugi said:


> @_Hotaru_
> 
> I finally managed to force my bf to _properly_ look at some of the Enneagram stuff (hehe). And he says, "7 seems more likely."
> 
> NOOOOoooOOOooo! >_>
> 
> Damn you Enneagram!


That's a very 6-like reaction 

Could be core or a strong wing.

After tonight, I realized all typology systems are insane and crazy accurate once you hit the X spot. 

It's amazing.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Hotaru_

Well, after a long discussion with my bf I am now considering 7 again, lol. He says anxiety that is part of a persons personality structure and anxiety as a disorder are two separate processes; and that in my case, having observed me for 3 years or so now, that my anxiety fits the latter category (as anxiety as a personality trait should be inseparable from the personality itself). He said that rather than having an anxious personality, I have an excitable, adventurous personality, limited by anxiety and attention span.

He's never actually studied Enneagram though, these are just his observations.

EDIT: I'm also going to add that a lot of my confusion trying to grasp the core concept of what each type is probably comes down to the fact that many of the descriptions seem heavily SiNe/NeSi influenced. When a Ni-dom attempts to explain this stuff to me it often just sort of "clicks." Enneagram needs more Ni-doms!


----------



## Paradigm

@Kintsugi

It's worth noting that a few variations of 6w7 can seem very 7ish. Usually SX-doms or SO/SX.

When it comes down to it, there's two main reasons I, personally, don't type as 7w6:
1) I cannot relate to the assertive/id triad at all.
2) I don't relate much to 7's gluttony. (And I don't agree with Naranjo about many things; his school would probably have something to say about this.) (Exceptions and all that, I'm all for those, but I'm not the exception.)

But there's quite a few 7 things I do relate to, particularly planning and distraction. I relate more to those coping mechanisms than crap like projection. On the other hand, I also relate a lot to existential anxiety, feeling inherently lost, etc., which make up the reasons why I type as 6.

I don't have GAD, but I do have depression and PTSD (an anxiety disorder), and some social anxiety stemming from those. A few phobias, like most people. Honestly, I can't really explain the difference between 6 and clinical anxiety other than: my clinical anxiety has always been able to be triggered, whereas my 6 anxiety has always just _been_. I imagine GAD would change this up a bit, if that's what you have (sorry, I can't remember atm).

I do know some people who do have clinical anxiety who aren't 6s. 3s and 9s, most of them; they tend to have anxiety on top of their type's typical manifestations / fixations. My 4w3 aunt could probably qualify, too. My sister, a 7w6, says she has clinical anxiety, but we're not close enough for me to have seen those symptoms or effects on her life. She's one of those "willingly always active" people who then complains about "always being tired," so idk. 

I'm not actually awake yet -- I'm having trouble sleeping -- so this might be a little disjointed. Oh, also - agreed there needs to be more Se/Ni users :laughing:


----------



## Sina

@_Kintsugi_

You seem so much more core reactive than positive outlook. I could see you having a heavy 7 wing and the SX first-ness amplifying it. I just don't see core id, and I never did see 1. You're a head type. That much is obvious. It'd be much more convenient for me to go over this with you on Skype at a mutually comfortable time. Typing discussions here can drone on and on, and you intrigue me a lot so I am here. But, I also have limited time. 

This isn't enough reasoning by my standards, but I will share a few brief observations. :-

- You seem sensitive to uncertainty/doubt and seek clarity in a 6 way, which is to say, through extensive questioning and counter-questioning. You seem to seek closure, grounding and certitude, more than you seem to be outrunning pain. You would be a counter-phobic leaning 6, if considered that typing. Phobic leaning 6s are much more subtle and observant, rather than openly testing etc.
- You are very self critical in a self-castigating way, which is not very core 7. Unhealthy 7s can be self-critical but it's not as endemic to them.
- When you push buttons, even if you might enjoy it, it stands out to me that you do it to test people in a way that cues you into their intent. You also do it to expose them as however you see them. You also have a marked identification with the underdog, which is something you said earlier on the thread. Many types can be sensitive to so called underdog issues, however identifying with the underdog and viewing oneself on the disadvantaged side of the power scale is 6 rather than 7. 

Your partner is right about separating pathological anxiety from 6 anxiety -- anxiety here meaning 1. seeking certainty/surety in a world experienced as unpredictable and uncertain 2. being in tune with the emergence of factors that may undermine the former. I think you see yourself in the impulsiveness, thrill seeking aspects of 7 a lot, but it would help to remember this is not uncommon for Sx doms in general.

Another tip would be to look into whether you relate to more to the 3 6 9 triad via dis/int. lines OR to 5 and 1. Let's keep trifix out for now. From what I have observed, I see the former more. What you might see as 1 (your sensitivity to injustice as you had mentioned earlier), strikes me more as arising from a 6 source than 7 or 1. Read the underdog point above. You don't seem self-critical for the primary reason of feeling there is something inherently flawed within you which keeps you from reaching your internal standards. You seem more self critical for reasons of personal worth and a more 6ish idealism centered on personal fairness (for example, forgiving people, not strictly as a matter of principle, but because if you were in their position, you'd also want to receive similar treatment). 

I have like 4 different anxiety disorders including PTSD and GAD. Most 6s I know are neurotypical. Honestly, @_Paradigm_ is far less "anxious" about health issues than I am (it's part of my GAD) for example. In fact, she's so chill and laconic, despite having more rational cause for health related anxiety. So, I'd definitely suggest trying to separate the two. Descriptions can wrongly mix traits from pathological anxiety in the 6 description. I read one a while back about this woman who froze in a spot in the middle of traffic or something, and the author (RH I believe) used that as an example of 6 anxiety, which was fucking comical given how obvious it was that the description of her anxiety had to do with a major panic attack than Type. That's a somewhat extreme example, though you get the gist.

Anyway, I won't be able to engage you at length here. Skype is faster and more interactive, more my taste.


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## Paradigm

Vajra said:


> Honestly, @_Paradigm_ is far less "anxious" about health issues than I am (it's part of my GAD) for example. In fact, she's so chill and laconic, despite having more rational cause for health related anxiety.


Well, yeah, like I said, I don't have GAD xD I have panic attacks (rarely, nowadays), so I can relate a little to those who have more severe anxiety disorders, but "anxiety" isn't really my primary diagnosis. I have a bit of SP-related hypochondria, but it's more of a neurosis than a diagnosis -- that is, it's not all-consuming like real hypochondria would be, and besides I kinda have reason to be. 

But really, my laconic nature just hides most of my anxiety. I have a superego drive to not affect others* by expressing my anxiety and thus I come off as less anxious than I actually am on the inside. I'm also quite rational and can talk myself out of giving my anxiety too much thought (or at least, try really hard at doing so) -- but I've had to work on this skill for _years_. A lot of times it doesn't actually take away my anxiety, because I still feel it quite acutely, but it's almost like compartmentalizing it.

*And also to seem like I have it together, or that I'm capable/competent, which I think is how my 3+1 influences show themselves. And SP containment.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Not to divert the topic or sth but I'm really suprised that so many people have anxiety disorders, here in perC.
I have one too, just got it recently (4 months ago) with a panic attack. I never had another, well not full blown at least.

Before that I was very laid back and didnt experience anxiety.
What I wanna ask is that did you guys get it all of a sudden too or it was from early ages ?


----------



## Sina

crashbandicoot said:


> Not to divert the topic or sth but I'm really suprised that so many people have anxiety disorders, here in perC.
> I have one too, just got it recently (4 months ago) with a panic attack. I never had another, well not full blown at least.
> 
> Before that I was very laid back and didnt experience anxiety.
> What I wanna ask is that did you guys get it all of a sudden too or it was from early ages ?


My PTSD is long standing, though it was diagnosed a good decade late. I grew up in a politically volatile place, fairly violent etc. and was raised by an abusive parent. The GAD was diagnosed around the same time and was co-morbid with depression and not unusual for someone with PTSD. The other diagnosis that I don't want to get into in too much detail (OCD related) is a few years old, although I've only recently taken it seriously, or more like it's become an overarching problem in more recent times.


----------



## Figure

TheProphetLaLa said:


> You're right that is a weird question and I'm not entirely sure how to answer. I think any of those activities I listed would be problematic to _anyone_ wouldn't they? All I know is if I acted in that way it would make me feel ashamed, frustrated, and/or guilty of myself depending on if I simply made a spectacular fool out of myself, was some kind of aggressor, or inconvenienced people somehow.


Okay, so you've mentioned a couple things so far that are interesting when you put them together:



You don't consider yourself to be a judgmental person
It bothers you when people force their way of living onto other people
People insulting others, bullying, and unfair judgments on someone else do anger you
You fear losing control, because you fear you may do something you later regret
You also want to avoid feeling ashamed, frustrated, guilty, being seen as foolish, as an inconvenience to others
You give people the benefit of the doubt

The common thing I see here is a focus on other people, and their reactions. You definitely seem to have a concern for how others are responding to both others and to you. You also seem to not want people to see you in a certain way, in a way you don't think you are/do not want to be. 

When we look at the way type 1 deals with other people, it is almost always a sense of others aligning with, or not aligning with their personal standards. 1 is not a particularly interpersonal type as it is, because 1's are far more dependent on their internal principles and subjective sense of correct/not correct than they are on what they know of other people, or in what light others see them. This is where we see 1's who correct others or crusade incessantly, without any awareness of how they are making others feel, or how they are ruining their connections in favor of principle. This is even true of 1w2's (because they are fundamentally 1) and _especially _true of Social 1's, which tends to be a more rigid and unwaveringly corrective type. On top of that, 1 being a Competency type that tends to depersonalize situations (again, to act on principle, not emotion). 

I notice you type as a 1w2. Was there something specific that drew you towards 1 instead of 2?


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Vajra said:


> My PTSD is long standing, though it was diagnosed a good decade late. I grew up in a politically volatile place, fairly violent etc. and was raised by an abusive parent. The GAD was diagnosed around the same time and was co-morbid with depression and not unusual for someone with PTSD. The other diagnosis that I don't want to get into in too much detail (OCD related) is a few years old, although I've only recently taken it seriously, or more like it's become an overarching problem in more recent times.


How did you end up typing as an INFP and a SEE? Thats a strange combination.


----------



## Sina

TheProphetLaLa said:


> How did you end up typing as an INFP and a SEE? Thats a strange combination.


I play around with these type display labels for fun. I am an ESTJ LSE? I believe. I did previously type at SEE, and I've been typed at SLE a couple of times on my thread. I think @_Figure_ had suggested ENTp-Ti? Socionics is so not my thing. I am not very invested in either MBTI or Socionics. I do know enough about the former to see that the ESTJ in MBTI is the best-fit. I don't think I quite relate to the LSE personality descriptions. The cognitive function? bit does make sense.


----------



## Kintsugi

Paradigm said:


> @_Kintsugi_
> 
> It's worth noting that a few variations of 6w7 can seem very 7ish. Usually SX-doms or SO/SX.
> 
> When it comes down to it, there's two main reasons I, personally, don't type as 7w6:
> 1) I cannot relate to the assertive/id triad at all.
> 2) I don't relate much to 7's gluttony. (And I don't agree with Naranjo about many things; his school would probably have something to say about this.) (Exceptions and all that, I'm all for those, but I'm not the exception.)


In relation to me;

1) Yes I relate _a lot _to the assertive/id triad. I generally_ think_ I know what I want and I go after it relatively easily (people always say to me, "you don't think before you act, do you?!"). I also have problems with self control. But this could just as easily be connected to the fact I am Se-dominant and Ni inferior. The issue I have is not in going after what I want, it's in following through, FOCUSING, and figuring out the best way to get there, lol.

To illustrate my point; the Ni inferior dynamic has been described as; _*"*__*The individual lives deeply submerged into the material aspect of his reality but has weak ability to grasp the meaning of the events in his life. He longs for a sense of greater meaning in his life beyond the immediately physical and enjoys the company of people who can shed some light on this for him and provide him with context and meaning for his actions."*_ To give an example, I find that my partner (INTJ) has a skill for getting me to slow down and think about/consider the consequences of my actions. I have problems trying to figure out which will be the most effective and efficient way of getting what I want, and whether or not the goal I've set my sights on is even worth it in the first place. I'm just so damn impulsive, lol.

2) Gluttony is a *huge *problem for me, I am so disconnected from what I am doing in the present moment most of the time that I feel as though I never really get to truly enjoy or appreciate ANYTHING. So I just keep jumping from one thing to the next in the hope of easing this terrible sense of despair/nothingness that lies somewhere at deep inside of me (and that I spend most of my time ignoring/avoiding). And my inability to SIT STILL is _soooo_ fucking *FRUSTRATING.* xD

But this really all depends on what is exactly meant by "gluttony" in this context. Admittedly, my understanding of the _specific _​meaning of each of these words used in Enneagram literature is limited, and I have noticed there are also disagreements when it comes to various different schools of thought, etc. So, feel free to point out if I completely got the wrong end of the stick here. 




> But there's quite a few 7 things I do relate to, particularly planning and distraction. I relate more to those coping mechanisms than crap like projection. On the other hand, I also relate a lot to existential anxiety, feeling inherently lost, etc., which make up the reasons why I type as 6.
> 
> I don't have GAD, but I do have depression and PTSD (an anxiety disorder), and some social anxiety stemming from those. A few phobias, like most people. Honestly,_* I can't really explain the difference between 6 and clinical anxiety other than: my clinical anxiety has always been able to be triggered, whereas my 6 anxiety has always just *__*been.* I imagine GAD would change this up a bit, if that's what you have (sorry, I can't remember atm).
> _




Meh, I never understood "projection". Wtf is that about anyway, _*everyone *_projects, right?! >_>

Yeah, I don't understand "existential anxiety." Not at all, if I'm honest. And this is my main issue with typing at 6.

In reference to the bold, my anxiety is always triggered. It's hard for me to sometimes be aware of the fact that I'm not actually just anxious by default (because I've had an anxiety disorder for so long now, and after a while, it sort of becomes the "norm"). But, others around me, who know me very well, (such as my partner) have observed that it is not an intrinsic part of my personality. 

@Vajra

I'll just respond to some of the stuff you mentioned here because it's relevant information for others who I have asked for feedback about my type. But, yeah, I prefer Skype too. ^_^




> You seem so much more core reactive than positive outlook. I could see you having a heavy 7 wing and the SX first-ness amplifying it. I just don't see core id, and I never did see 1. You're a head type. That much is obvious.




Agreed, I am _definitely _a head type. xD

I'm afraid my understanding of the reactive/positive outlook/withdrawn stuff is fuzzy, at best. Particularly regarding "reactive types." I've read the links people have pointed me towards and I just don't see myself that way, I guess? I've also spoken to others who know me better off the forum and they have all said that reactive doesn't really fit me either. I think the issue I have is that until I have managed to grasp/understand all these concepts myself, I am forever going to be relying on other peoples interpretations of the theory, and their perception of my behavior. Which kinda seems to miss the point because the Enneagram process seems to be a very _personal_ thing.
I do wonder if I'm having Ni inferior issues again. 



> This isn't enough reasoning by my standards, but I will share a few brief observations. :-
> 
> - You seem sensitive to uncertainty/doubt and seek clarity in a 6 way, which is to say, through extensive questioning and counter-questioning. You seem to seek closure, grounding and certitude, more than you seem to be outrunning pain. You would be a counter-phobic leaning 6, if considered that typing. Phobic leaning 6s are much more subtle and observant, rather than openly testing etc.


I also seek clarity in an "OMFG, I'm an Se-dom and I'm struggling to make sense of what's going on _underneath _the surface here?!", kinda way. 

I do seek out clarity, particularly from xNTJs, because they are strong in the areas I am weak. I'n not sure that this uncertainty makes me anxious though, I'm just a pretty curious person who enjoys learning new things. And, Ni-doms are just so-damn so hawt that I cannot help be drawn in by them. Completely shameless! :blushed:

I would say questioning and counter-questioning is just a part of critical thinking (which any type can develop), and actually is something that my partner has encouraged me to practice, as in the past, I would just naively take things at face-value! xD 

When you see me doing this on the forum (often not very well, lol), it's because this has become a great place for me to practice these skills while interacting with others. I'm not really sure I'd say that this "defines" me or is a core aspect of my personality; although I'm kind of chuffed that I got noticed for it, haha! 

Do I really seem like a CP6? I'm too cute for that. :kitteh::laughing:



> - You are very self critical in a self-castigating way, which is not very core 7. Unhealthy 7s can be self-critical but it's not as endemic to them.


This can also be a symptom of social anxiety and general low self-esteem, though. Again, this is where I get confused. But, point taken.



> - When you push buttons, even if you might enjoy it, it stands out to me that you do it to test people in a way that cues you into their intent. You also do it to expose them as however you see them. You also have a marked identification with the underdog, which is something you said earlier on the thread. Many types can be sensitive to so called underdog issues, however identifying with the underdog and viewing oneself on the disadvantaged side of the power scale is 6 rather than 7.


Hmm, when I compare myself to others, who do seem to be very focused on "underdog issues", I'd say that I'm not really that invested in causes like that. I'm actually, I hate to admit it, the type of person who might intentionally invalidate another and scold them for being a "victim". Sure, if I see someone acting like a jerk I'm probably going to speak out and tell them exactly whatI think of their behavior; but it's definitely not something that I spend most of my time thinking about, lol. SeFi is sometimes seen as quite harsh, unforgiving, even "vindictive" by those who don't value those functions; say, in comparison to the more (in my opinion) gentler, and restrained xNFP types. also, how much of sticking up for another person, after having related to their experiences, is just another manifestation of Fi-type empathy?

I don't view myself on the disadvantaged side of power scale. I sometimes get really whiny and annoyed when I don't get my way though, lol. Honestly, I'm not interested in hierarchy. I work in an environment that has a very strict hierarchy in terms of positions of power, etc. I'm pretty much oblivious to that most of the time. I treat my seniors in the same way I would treat anyone (much to their despair). I work with a bunch of people who are more sensitive to such issues, who I call the "union crew"; who are always disgruntled and unhappy about something (usually related to those in "power" above us doing something wrong, etc). While they may have legitimate complaints sometimes, a lot of the time I find myself wishing they'd just stop being such pessimistic whinge-bags, and actually focus on doing a half-decent job instead of wallowing in self-pity all the time, lol.

OMG. I'm going to have to stop there because I seriously can't focus anymore, LOL. Perhaps we can continue this discussion on Skype sometime. I appreciate the feedback.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Figure said:


> Okay, so you've mentioned a couple things so far that are interesting when you put them together:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't consider yourself to be a judgmental person
> It bothers you when people force their way of living onto other people
> People insulting others, bullying, and unfair judgments on someone else do anger you
> You fear losing control, because you fear you may do something you later regret
> You also want to avoid feeling ashamed, frustrated, guilty, being seen as foolish, as an inconvenience to others
> You give people the benefit of the doubt
> 
> The common thing I see here is a focus on other people, and their reactions. You definitely seem to have a concern for how others are responding to both others and to you. You also seem to not want people to see you in a certain way, in a way you don't think you are/do not want to be.
> 
> When we look at the way type 1 deals with other people, it is almost always a sense of others aligning with, or not aligning with their personal standards. 1 is not a particularly interpersonal type as it is, because 1's are far more dependent on their internal principles and subjective sense of correct/not correct than they are on what they know of other people, or in what light others see them. This is where we see 1's who correct others or crusade incessantly, without any awareness of how they are making others feel, or how they are ruining their connections in favor of principle. This is even true of 1w2's (because they are fundamentally 1) and _especially _true of Social 1's, which tends to be a more rigid and unwaveringly corrective type. On top of that, 1 being a Competency type that tends to depersonalize situations (again, to act on principle, not emotion).
> 
> I notice you type as a 1w2. Was there something specific that drew you towards 1 instead of 2?


That is certainly true and I do have type 2 in my tri-type so there will be some aspects of that type in my behavior. 

Well, there's quite a few reasons but I'll try to put out a few of them. Firstly, I do not relate to the disintegration point of 8. I'm not the type of person who will try to manipulate people closest to me or indebt themselves to me and as a matter of fact I find that to be a burden. If anything I'm the type of person who will withdraw from people and want to be left alone. I don't enjoy long term obligations. 

For example, if I defend someone its not because I want them to feel indebted to me, but because I feel they were being taken advantage of, or that they were in an unfair situation. Its really more of the situation I'm focusing on than the person themselves. I just kind of want to say what I want to say and then be on my way. 

Also, I will stubbornly keep to _my_ principles whether it inconveniences someone or not. I couldn't give less than two fucks. I will not be pressured into doing something I don't want or saying something that I don't believe. I simply don't like to push my principles onto other people.

And I'm not the type of person who thinks I need to censor myself for the delicate sensibilities of others. My father will say things like don't mention that you're an atheist because some people will be offended, say you're agnostic instead. To me thats ridiculous. Why would I censor my beliefs because someone else would be offended? I will always speak my truth. That is my right and no one can take that away from me. 

And I feel that I'm much too confrontational to be a type 2. 

These are some of the problems I have with typing at 2. But to be fair I have similar problems with typing at 1 as well.

On another note, I finally realized what bothered me about the whole "lecturing" thing. To me lecturing needs to come from a position of superiority. An "I'm better than you and I know whats best" miss priss attitude needs to be embodied. When I "lecture" someone its not really coming from a position of superiority and can come across as more confrontational or "attack-like" I guess you could say. Although, sometimes I do feel superior….


----------



## Sina

@_Kintsugi_

Some comments: -

1. I don't see any point to alluding to other personality typing systems to explain away what aligns with a certain Type. A 7 is a 7 despite cognitive functions usage. We can make distinctions between how 7ness would express in different MBTI types, but I am completely unconvinced by your cognitive functions explanations of factors pointed out that are in line with 6, for example -- I am in tune with what's really going on under the surface because I am Se-something. -- Naah. not buying it. You could also be tuning in to that because you are a 6 and whatever cognitive function combinations you pointed out. See we can argue circles around that. There can be multiple causes, and one (JCF) can exacerbate the other without categorically negating 6. 

2. Rational skepticism as a scientific paradigm, which as a trained social scientist, I most certainly see great value in, and questioning and counter-questioning to uncover intent, to seek out reactions (pushing buttons) to pursue certainty regarding people's stances, motives etc. are very different things. You don't simply do this because you enjoy it. That much is obvious. This is what the questioning was related to in my post, and I spelt it out-- not critical thinking. I wasn't talking about that all. In fact, if you want to bring up critical thinking, I find your questioning to be pretty lacking in that department. XD I, definitely, do not associate superior critical thinking skills with any type. In fact, people wrongly associate rational skepticism or skeptical inquiry with individual 6s. Sixes can be rational skeptics and adept at critical thinking, but this is not something exclusive or inherent to the type. They can also be profoundly illogical, emotive and lacking intellectual detachment. 

As for taking things at face value, we often hear from 6w7s on the forum that they are "quite naive" and had to learn not to take everything at face value. At the same time, the person is very attuned to subtleties, loopholes, contingencies etc. I don't think this is a lack of awareness necessarily, as there is a very obvious divergent pull between 6 and 7.

3. I don't think calling out a jerk makes you a 6. I also don't think empathy makes you a 6 (lol). However, 7s have a certain detachment in these matters that I don't see from you. When I say that you identify with the disadvantaged side of the power scale, I am referring to a more innate pattern I see with you that came through in our personal conversations, which is something I obviously won't elaborate on here, but also, in a limited sense, on this thread, and it was in your own words. It doesn't mean that you will not look down on whiny self-victimizing morons. It also doesn't mean that you will have the good sense to not invalidate someone who is truly victimized. Any type can be invalidating. This also doesn't mean that you will treat your seniors at work with fawning deference. That is just a stereotype. Workplace hierarchies are a very Soc- thing. If you are Soc- last or are not particularly interested in competition professionally, you can be disinterested in that particular form of security. I think @_Paradigm_ is a great example of someone who really isn't all that in tune with hierarchies. Perceptions of power imbalances also operate interpersonally, outside of organizational work place politics. So, that's something to take into account as well.

Hell, the disgruntled union crew may comprise of more 1s than 6s lol. If what they are whining about is not an issue that impacts you, I don't see why you would, in my assumption- since I see you as 6w7- theoretically - sympathize with them. 

-I was making a general point when I said underdog "issues", not specifically social causes. There are many Type 1s, for instance, who don't care for social causes and many 7s, 8s, 3s etc. who do. There also definitely 6s who are not into social causes. 


Yes, we'll take this up on Skype. <3

p.s. Yes..it's crucial that you get a strong grasp of theory. If you don't get the nuances and the material well, you will easily reach the wrong conclusions for a number of reasons. I've seen quite a few people say ohh...all my irl friends think I am Type x etc...only to realize later they were mistyped. If you don't know the theory well, you'll end up limiting yourself to poor shortcuts that rely more on what people say (which does have its place) and/or how many validate your self-perceptions, than critically reflecting on yourself and the material in your own time.


----------



## Kintsugi

crashbandicoot said:


> Not to divert the topic or sth but I'm really suprised that so many people have anxiety disorders, here in perC.
> I have one too, just got it recently (4 months ago) with a panic attack. I never had another, well not full blown at least.
> 
> Before that I was very laid back and didnt experience anxiety.
> What I wanna ask is that did you guys get it all of a sudden too or it was from early ages ?


My anxiety hit me around the age of 15/16. It's probably the result of a lot of childhood wounding and also traumatic experiences that occurred around that age. I didn't really accept I had an anxiety problem until around 22-23, though. I spent most of my late teens up until that point, self-medicating, generally trying to pretend I didn't have a problem through escaping via drugs/alcohol/raving/etc, until I was _forced_ to deal with it (and if I hadn't dealt with it at that point there's a strong possibility that I would be on the streets right now).

I'm _still _trying to deal with it now. I have problems processing stuff as I tend to run away from negative emotions. I'm getting there though.


----------



## Kintsugi

@Vajra

I think you may have misunderstood me a little (correct me if I'm wrong though). I wasn't arguing against me being a 6 (in fact a few posts up I had said that I _was_ leaning more 6 over 7 as my core type); I was just merely thinking out aloud, lol (i.e. pointing out which parts I don't quite relate to with regard the 6 stuff, which is what I was trying to highlight). I'm trying to reconcile my understanding of other typology systems with Enneagram. I appreciate that you do not see this relevant, but this is very different from the way I synthesize and understand these theories (it might have something to do with our different cognitive styles, I'm not sure. But now I'm thinking about that instead of focusing on understanding Enneagram, xD). 

I think part of the issue here is that what I really need help with is trying to understand and deepen my knowledge/understanding of Enneagram, so that I can work out what my core type is, myself. This seems to be the core problem for me at the moment; and, until I understand this stuff, people telling me I'm a 1, or a 7, or a 6....is really just meaningless to me.

I do appreciate all the feedback though (to everyone). This has been interesting. ^_^

P.S. I'll PM soon and we will Skype, definitely.


----------



## Sina

Kintsugi said:


> @_Vajra_
> 
> I think you may have misunderstood me a little (correct me if I'm wrong though). I wasn't arguing against me being a 6 (in fact a few posts up I had said that I _was_ leaning more 6 over 7 as my core type); I was just merely thinking out aloud, lol (i.e. pointing out which parts I don't quite relate to with regard the 6 stuff, which is what I was trying to highlight).


Oh, you have every right to argue against any typing suggestion I put forth.  I was responding to the reasoning, and pointing out some ways in which it was flawed or did not touch at the core issues of the type. I did take your commentary into account, as always. 



> I'm trying to reconcile my understanding of other typology systems with Enneagram. I appreciate that you do not see this relevant, but this is very different from the way I synthesize and understand these theories (it might have something to do with our different cognitive styles, I'm not sure. But now I'm thinking about that instead of focusing on understanding Enneagram, xD).


I understand that it's your learning style, now that you mention it. I tend to study it in isolation and stripping things down to the bare bones, which is why I leave tritype out, and focus simply on the instincts and core type + wing influences (more important than a lot of people realize). If reconciling the two systems helps, I would encourage you to pursue that line of reasoning with others offering feedback. 

You are free to share JCF interpretations with me as well; just know that I will read and take note, but not accept other typologies as a valid counter point. This will help because it would encourage you to self-reflect in a way that doesn't involve yet another typology thing, and it would allow you more time and energy to focus on the Enneagram--- which is hard enough to grasp by itself. If we can work this way, it sounds like a win-win situation. 


> I think part of the issue here is that what I really need help with is trying to understand and deepen my knowledge/understanding of Enneagram, so that I can work out what my core type is, myself.


Valid and excellent point. A lot of people start typing threads/discussions when they don't really grasp the types well. It just causes them confusion. I definitely recommend get a hang of the types, and when you are reading descriptions, avoid the temptation to wonder if you relate, at least in the first two readings. Let it sink in, and then reflect on yourself. Once you are starting get a deeper idea of the type, you can reflect on yourself and read at the same time. So, I'd suggest simply focusing on the material more the first time or two.


> This seems to be the core problem for me at the moment; and, until I understand this stuff, people telling me I'm a 1, or a 7, or a 6....is really just meaningless to me.


Completely understandable. We could talk about these two types and any others you want to explore on Skype.


> I do appreciate all the feedback though (to everyone). This has been interesting. ^_^


Glad to be of help.


> P.S. I'll PM soon and we will Skype, definitely.


Ttys! <3


----------



## Paradigm

crashbandicoot said:


> Before that I was very laid back and didnt experience anxiety.
> What I wanna ask is that did you guys get it all of a sudden too or it was from early ages ?


I think the way I went about it was a little backwards xD

I was a _very_ anxious child, to the point where it probably should have been classified as a disorder of some type. This wasn't usually 6ish anxiety; in retrospect, it was most likely a symptom of my C-PTSD. I had my first panic attack at eight years old, and they were quite frequent for many years.

Once I got out of the environment causing my PTSD (public schooling) at 18, it took a few years for me to reach a semblance of normalcy. My anxiety went down bit by bit during that time. Had you asked me back then the difference between existential and disordered anxiety, I would have looked at you blankly.


----------



## Paradigm

Kintsugi said:


> In relation to me


Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I was trying to relate that one can totally relate to X or Y about a type, but still have legit reasons for not typing as such. I'm not saying you're a 6 or a 7, just trying to help you understand 6 more. (Especially since most 6 ideas are heavily SOC-influenced, and I'm very much SOC-last.)



> Yeah, I don't understand "existential anxiety." Not at all, if I'm honest. And this is my main issue with typing at 6.


Existential anxiety is the inherent realization that anything is possible, and being dazzled by the amount of possibilities. I say inherent because I'm sure there's people of various types who have made the same realization. But for 6s, there's no "AHA" moment to this idea, it's simply common, or perhaps instinctual, knowledge -- though they may have gone "AHA" when they found words for the concept.

That's not to say 6s don't fully know certain things are improbable to the point of impossibility; 6s aren't stupid. But you can only rule out so much, and so they get lost and overwhelmed by the amount of possibilities left over. Each 6 deals with being overwhelmed differently, from being staunchly loyal to stubbornly independent, from being close-minded to progressive, and so on. (Most of which is not based on the P/CP continuum!)



> In reference to the bold, my anxiety is always triggered. It's hard for me to sometimes be aware of the fact that I'm not actually just anxious by default (because I've had an anxiety disorder for so long now, and after a while, it sort of becomes the "norm"). But, others around me, who know me very well, (such as my partner) have observed that it is not an intrinsic part of my personality.


I know what you mean... My depression has been with me for so long that I'm not sure who I'd be if it were cured. It's one thing to know it intellectually, isn't it xD


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@tanstaafl28 I could see you as Sexual 5 rather than Social 5. typically, Social 5s tend to come off a tad more metallic and bookish, while your posts seem softer, more human, less reluctance to talk about your feelings and experiences. @bethdeth I'm going off on a limb here, but you vibe 1w9 to me rather than 9w8.


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## Zamyatin

@everybody, this is a permanently standing invitation to all and every to speak if you feel I'm mistyped. On anything. MBTI/Sociotype, instincts, Enneatype and tritype, whatever.

Go for it.


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## beth x

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @tanstaafl28 I could see you as Sexual 5 rather than Social 5. typically, Social 5s tend to come off a tad more metallic and bookish, while your posts seem softer, more human, less reluctance to talk about your feelings and experiences. @bethdeth I'm going off on a limb here, but you vibe 1w9 to me rather than 9w8.


I never thought about a 1 before. I don't test high in 1 and I'm really never interested in perfection as a motivation. Not even as a wing.



> Ones with this wing can have an aura of 9-like calm although eruptions of temper are possible. Often have a detached quality and can be mistaken for Fives. Tendency to formulate and embrace principles that have little human content, but this is also their strength. When awakened, may be objective and balanced, cool and moderate in their evaluations. More entranced, might have perfectionistic expectations that are not humanly possible to meet. May hold social or political opinions that are supremely logical but ultimately heartless and draconian. The rules come first no matter what. Can be merciless or unwittingly cruel. Often a little colorless in their personal appearance. Many Ones with this wing are plain dressers, preferring functional clothing that is appropriate to context but not flashy. The emphasis on function may extend to their general lifestyle. Practicality is highly valued.


Nope, not me. I think perhaps you might be seeing a moderator rather than a person.


----------



## tanstaafl28

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_tanstaafl28_ I could see you as Sexual 5 rather than Social 5. typically, Social 5s tend to come off a tad more metallic and bookish, while your posts seem softer, more human, less reluctance to talk about your feelings and experiences. @_bethdeth_ I'm going off on a limb here, but you vibe 1w9 to me rather than 9w8.


 @Swordsman of Mana 

Second stack instinctual subtypes can be nearly as powerful as the first.


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## beth x

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @tanstaafl28 I could see you as Sexual 5 rather than Social 5. typically, Social 5s tend to come off a tad more metallic and bookish, while your posts seem softer, more human, less reluctance to talk about your feelings and experiences. @bethdeth I'm going off on a limb here, but you vibe 1w9 to me rather than 9w8.


Actually. It appears I lied about the 1 not being high. It's just not as high as the 5 8 or 9 (all equal scores). I went looking for a thread years ago. I was pretty sure that I wasn't a 5 then because I'm more of the type who gets unruly half grown puppies dumped on them to raise when they can't afford it (I have a wonderful 7 year old Labrador pal because of that) and surely a 5 would have seen that coming LOL. I didn't even consider perfection because..... I don't pay attention to detail that much and I'm not wanting perfection from anyone else around me. I more wake up after complacency then try to submerge myself into more peaceful thoughts to get away from that. I have had brief interludes where I thought I might have been 8 just because I've been fairly assertive (but it's usually in reaction). I never draw first blood in arguments too.


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## Swordsman of Mana

tanstaafl28 said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> Second stack instinctual subtypes can be nearly as powerful as the first.


just out of curiosity, what made you decide to settle on Social dom?


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## tanstaafl28

Swordsman of Mana said:


> just out of curiosity, what made you decide to settle on Social dom?


I've been diagnosed as such. I am all about cooperation and socialization.


----------



## knife

Youse guys who know me on the forum, do you think I could be this stack?


> 7w6 2w3 9w8


Reason I ask is cos I took the Enneagram test on a lark and this is what came up. Huh. I'm definitely very playful in my element though I tend to close up shop right quick the moment I lose that sense of comfort.


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## Recede

I already gave my consent in this thread, but that was 4000 posts ago, so...I give it again. :kitteh:


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## o0india0o

Consent given! 

Feedback always welcome.


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## galactic collision

Still trying to figure out if my instinct variant stacking is so/sx or so/sp. I feel like I'm very concerned with being in control over myself which makes me think of psychological self preservation but I've also always been very passionate, intense, driven... I don't know. Is it possible to use two instincts equally? Or for one to usurp the other at any point?


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## cinnabun

Question: How do you figure out the order of your tri-type? Like: Head type > gut type > heart type?


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## Alette

Rinnie said:


> Question: How do you figure out the order of your tri-type? Like: Head type > gut type > heart type?


which to you use more? Your gut type or heart type?


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## cinnabun

Lady Lunar said:


> which to you use more? Your gut type or heart type?


I don't know, both of them are equally as strong.

I've always went with my heart type next, because 'heart' type implies you're more caring and shit lol, but that's obviously not the best way to look at it xD.

I think my 9 fix is second, though.


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## Alette

Rinnie said:


> I don't know, both of them are equally as strong.
> 
> I've always went with my heart type next, because 'heart' type implies you're more caring and shit lol, but that's obviously not the best way to look at it xD.
> 
> I think my 9 fix is second, though.


I would say I see your 2 fix way more then your 9 fix most of the time.


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## Copper North

I'm curious, too.

The Enneagram in my signature line is Gut - Heart - Head.

Should it be mentioned in this order, or by strongest, 2nd strongest, and 3rd ?


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## hal0hal0

@_Vajra_ how much ass does my signature kick?


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## Sina

hal0hal0 said:


> @_Vajra_ how much ass does my signature kick?


Sure kicked my ass straight to hell.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst

For all my posts in the "You Know You're a Nine When..." thread, I doubt it at times. Maybe my tritype isn't what I thought it was?

Which type, when most likely unhealthy, starts plotting how to perfect themselves in increasingly strict, extreme and possibly unrealistic ways, tearing into every perceived flaw and turning them into yet another reason why they "deserve" to suffer or are otherwise worthless. And believing they won't be "worthwhile" as a person unless everything in their crazy standards is achieved. All this while doing absolutely nothing in reality and being more or less stuck in fantasy, because a) it's easier than actually working and b) the goal in question is impossible to achieve in any short timeframe, so why bother with anything at all?

Because except for that last part, it doesn't sound Nineish at all.


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## cinnabun

Copper North said:


> I'm curious, too.
> 
> The Enneagram in my signature line is Gut - Heart - Head.
> 
> Should it be mentioned in this order, or by strongest, 2nd strongest, and 3rd ?


You order it according to what you feel is the strongest > second strongest > weakest.


----------



## pivot_turn

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> For all my posts in the "You Know You're a Nine When..." thread, I doubt it at times. Maybe my tritype isn't what I thought it was?
> 
> Which type, when most likely unhealthy, starts plotting how to perfect themselves in increasingly strict, extreme and possibly unrealistic ways, tearing into every perceived flaw and turning them into yet another reason why they "deserve" to suffer or are otherwise worthless. And believing they won't be "worthwhile" as a person unless everything in their crazy standards is achieved. All this while doing absolutely nothing in reality and being more or less stuck in fantasy, because a) it's easier than actually working and b) the goal in question is impossible to achieve in any short timeframe, so why bother with anything at all?
> 
> Because except for that last part, it doesn't sound Nineish at all.


It could possibly be disintegration to Six, so that way it could suit Nine. I'm not sure though. But six is a head type, so stuck in their head makes somewhat sense and they're the type where pessimism and sort of paranoia is most talked about. Striving for perfection could also be One, so in an unhealthy way the type could be One or the type that disintegrates to One. Isn't that Seven? Also possibly, maybe Five could have some of that. Three could also have high standards and maybe they would turn more passive if disintegrating to Nine. 

And I just realised that what I talked about mostly, is the competency triad: 1, 3, 5.


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## d e c a d e n t

@ScientiaOmnisEst
First that comes to mind is 6 disintegrating to 3, but I might be biased since I remember seeing you type at 6 earlier. Perfectionism can also fit type 1 of course, but the talk of worthwhile/worthlessness sounds 3ish.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst

@Kink and @pivot_turn: Thanks. Now a few things:

- Anyone know where I can find more detailed information on Nine's line to Six? I swear I know more about Six's line to Three - including that going in that direction results in more ham-handed bragging and pumping oneself up than intensely internal thoughts of "fixing" anything - than the Nine-Six connection. The most likely explanation I can think of is Six influencing Nine to actually give a crap for once, which could explain this all.

- I have this weird connection to the competency triad - namely in that I relate a lot to the kinds of thoughts associated with those types. My problem is action: this is the entire reason I've typed as a Nine. I may think many of the same things about myself that competency types do - my mind is everything, I'm worthless if I don't meet a certain standard, I need to succeed and accomplish something in my life or I'm nothing - but I do next to nothing about it. I just think it and don't act. 

This has been kind of a lifelong thing, this passivity combined with high expectations. That's what makes me think I can't be a competency type: they all have some internal motor that keeps them going, that keeps Three achieving, that keeps Five learning, that keeps One matching and evaluating their standards. I'm not a hard worker - I've never had to be. I was one of those kids who did well in school with little to no effort (though I was never straight A's and that never bothered me, another strike against core competency), though that's mostly gone now. And I have this internal disgust towards actually studying or worse, asking for help. Like it just proves that what I thought I was was a lie and I...fail on multiple levels now. Smart people don't need to spend hours studying and I can't accept being one of those stupid average people._ They _can never accomplish anything meaningful, you have to be intelligent to do that. And naturally intelligent people find learning easy and have no need to create and execute study plans because they can automatically make sense of and remember the information. 

You can see how that kind of traps someone in a loop of indolence.

- I have, however, wondered if I have Seven somewhere in my type. I'm crazy pain-avoidant/pleasure seeking. When things go bad I often try to avoid it and distract myself with things I like for as long as possible. I'm not good at dealing with things upfront. Yet I can't see myself as a core Seven.


----------



## cinnabun

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Anyone know where I can find more detailed information on Nine's line to Six?


Perhaps @Lunar Light can shed some light on this?

See what I did there:ninja:?



ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I have, however, wondered if I have Seven somewhere in my type. I'm crazy pain-avoidant/pleasure seeking. When things go bad I often try to avoid it and distract myself with things I like for as long as possible. I'm not good at dealing with things upfront. Yet I can't see myself as a core Seven.


Well, if your core type is 9 (which I've just noticed that is what you're currently typing as) perhaps 7 is your head triad? or maybe 6w7?


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## Sina

@Rinnie

Is 6w7 your current typing or a fun/troll typing?


----------



## Darkbloom

Question for everyone: What are the reasons for an actual 9 to really hate the idea of being 9?
I thought most see themselves as 9-ish type of person,at least identify with the good sides of it,but for me it's just absolutely terrible,bad is just awful and good is from my perspective basically nothing,neutral.It's just plain _sad_ and it's the opposite of what I wanna be,my conscious is very opinionated,is important in people's lives,enjoys attention,can get loud and aggressive if needed,but I feel like I'm hiding something underneath it all,something 9-ish,but perhaps it's not 9,I don't know.It's definitely something withdrawn and inactive and happy with things being as they are and being the person I am and I can't handle the thought of it for some reason.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@ScientiaOmnisEst
Hah yeah, that stuff you wrote still makes me think of 3, though I guess 3 has a defense mechanism to keep them moving. Unless disintegrated maybe?
@Living dead
Possibly it is your core, or your point of disintegration. I don't think it's strange to dislike the thought of being either.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Kink said:


> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_
> Hah yeah, that stuff you wrote still makes me think of 3, though I guess 3 has a defense mechanism to keep them moving. Unless disintegrated maybe?


I have actually entertained the possibility of being a core Three. Except I have no accomplishments and I'm not especially good at anything. I have struggled openly with a fair number of things (as much as I hate it and have been ashamed of it). The only place I have any drive to be "the best" is in my imagination. And I'm selective about what's worth excelling in. 

So that's out. I can see Six...just unhealthy, not necessarily disintegrated.


----------



## cinnabun

Vajra said:


> @_Rinnie_
> 
> Is 6w7 your current typing or a fun/troll typing?


Trolling:kitteh:. I felt like being a 6 today .


----------



## Darkbloom

Pethaps I realy am an extremely disintegrated sexual 3,but I don't know,I feel literally nothing when reading about 3,it just doesn't click in any way.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Living dead said:


> Pethaps I realy am an extremely disintegrated sexual 3,but I don't know,I feel literally nothing when reading about 3,it just doesn't click in any way.


Does 9 click for you when you read?


----------



## Darkbloom

Kink said:


> Does 9 click for you when you read?


I don't know,I just wanna cry and kill people when reading about it,that's why I know I have special kind of connection to it.It's really nothing concrete,it's just that feeling like I'm just gonna die,like my heart is just gonna stop beating.
I figured it could be because 9 is such a neutral type that touches everyone in some way,but I feel like there's more to it.


----------



## Recede

Living dead said:


> Pethaps I realy am an extremely disintegrated sexual 3,but I don't know,I feel literally nothing when reading about 3,it just doesn't click in any way.


I'm not sure how meaningful it really is to feel something when you read a type description. To be honest when I read e9 descriptions they don't sound like me at all, they sound rather opposite me in a way. If anything, I feel very annoyed when I read about the type because I don't want to be associated with something that misrepresents me.


----------



## Darkbloom

Silveresque said:


> I'm not sure how meaningful it really is to feel something when you read a type description. To be honest when I read e9 descriptions they don't sound like me at all, they sound rather opposite me in a way. If anything, I feel very annoyed when I read about the type because I don't want to be associated with something that misrepresents me.


Yeah,I don't exactly relate either,but I feel like it is me somewhere deep deep down and it kills me.Don't you feel like that?


----------



## Darkbloom

Anyway,all I know is that types 2,5,6 and 9 are the ones that get the strongest emotions out of me,they are the ones I dread reading about,and I think that means something.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Living dead said:


> Anyway,all I know is that types 2,5,6 and 9 are the ones that get the strongest emotions out of me,they are the ones I dread reading about,and I think that means something.


Hm, why 5?


----------



## Recede

Living dead said:


> Yeah,I don't exactly relate either,but I feel like it is me somewhere deep deep down and it kills me.Don't you feel like that?


Yes, I do. When I read the descriptions they don't sound like me at all, but when I think about who I am and what it means to be me, that sounds very 9.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Living dead said:


> Pethaps I realy am an extremely disintegrated sexual 3,but I don't know,I feel literally nothing when reading about 3,it just doesn't click in any way.


most 3 descriptions describe unhealthy, glory-seeking Social 3 douchebags. Sexual 3 (especially when female) is the most 9-ish subtype of 3 and generally has a somewhat sweeter, more cooperative demeanor (in my experience, Sexual 3 is a common type among therapists, job coaches and elementary school teachers)
http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-f...exual-threes-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


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## Darkbloom

Kink said:


> Hm, why 5?


Because...the "withdrawn" label as well as relationship to emotions,I just don't like it,I know it doesn't mean withdrawn like necessarily asocial or anything like that but I don't like it and I don't think it's a good thing,it's just weird and it hurts me reading about it even though I don't exactly relate to it.Lol I sound dumb but I have no idea how to express it without sounding dumb XD
But also,in a weird way I almost envy it,don't know why


----------



## aendern

Silveresque said:


> I'm not sure how meaningful it really is to feel something when you read a type description. To be honest when I read e9 descriptions they don't sound like me at all, they sound rather opposite me in a way. If anything, I feel very annoyed when I read about the type because I don't want to be associated with something that misrepresents me.


I find that odd because I identify with 9 a lot.


----------



## Darkbloom

Swordsman of Mana said:


> most 3 descriptions describe unhealthy, glory-seeking Social 3 douchebags. Sexual 3 (especially when female) is the most 9-ish subtype of 3 and generally has a somewhat sweeter, more cooperative demeanor (in my experience, Sexual 3 is a common type among therapists, job coaches and elementary school teachers)
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-f...exual-threes-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


I can actually relate to 3 behavior quite a bit,even the obnoxious parts,but I don't feel like that's me,even though sx makes sense,I was between 4w3 and 3w4 for a very long time and obviously both are very me,when it comes to behavior because I'm quite ambitious,like being number one,get competitive/jealous,also sometimes dramatic,etc.,but something about 9 feels familiar.But perhaps that's the 3's soft side?


----------



## cinnabun

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Sexual 3 is the most 9-ish subtype of 3 and generally has a somewhat sweeter, more cooperative demeanor


Okay, from this description alone you're for sure not a 3 dom @KindOfBlue06.

(Kidding:tongue:<3).


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Living dead said:


> I can actually relate to 3 behavior quite a bit,even the obnoxious parts,but I don't feel like that's me,even though sx makes sense,I was between 4w3 and 3w4 for a very long time and obviously both are very me,when it comes to behavior because I'm quite ambitious,like being number one,get competitive/jealous,also sometimes dramatic,etc.,but something about 9 feels familiar.But perhaps that's the 3's soft side?


well, the "soft" side of female sexual 3s is often their default. Sexual 4 is typically a more showy diva personality. more openly haughty, with thinly masked feelings of butthurt


----------



## Darkbloom

Swordsman of Mana said:


> well, the "soft" side of female sexual 3s is often their default. Sexual 4 is typically a more showy diva personality. more openly haughty, with thinly masked feelings of butthurt


Actually 4 sounds more like me 
I have this haughty diva mask,always had it,but I truly don't even know what's underneath it because even when I'm extremely insecure I express it in haughty diva way,that's why I was convinced I was sx 4w3 when I was depressed.I guess I don't wanna show what's underneath,and I don't think it's true vulnerabilty I'm scared of,it's more like readiness to just turn my back on the world and do my thing but I feel like I can't let that happen.Edit: And that could be where hate for "withdrawn" comes from,also probably envy.It sounds wrong but in some way appealing


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Living dead said:


> Actually 4 sounds more like me
> I have this haughty diva mask,always had it,but I truly don't even know what's underneath it because even when I'm extremely insecure I express it in haughty diva way,that's why I was convinced I was sx 4w3 when I was depressed.I guess I don't wanna show what's underneath,and I don't think it's true vulnerabilty I'm scared of,it's more like readiness to just turn my back on the world and do my thing but I feel like I can't let that happen.


from my observations, both Sexual 3 and Sexual 4 are competitive, but Sexual 4 fluctuates between hyper-grandiose and feeling on top of the world with more withdrawn periods of feeling defective, hopeless, unlovable. Sexual 3 is a bit more even-keel, perky, seemingly 7-ish on the outside, although their presentation is, upon closer inspection, far more meticulous (Sexual 3 is smoother, more seductive. 7s are a bit dorkier and more genuinely oblivious unless they are more mature). however, on the inside, there is an underlying sadness to Sexual 3, a feeling that they're not quite good enough and need to be more desirable, more lovable, a better ideal of masculine/feminine beauty.


----------



## Darkbloom

Swordsman of Mana said:


> from my observations, both Sexual 3 and Sexual 4 are competitive, but Sexual 4 fluctuates between hyper-grandiose and feeling on top of the world with more withdrawn periods of feeling defective, hopeless, unlovable. Sexual 3 is a bit more even-keel, perky, seemingly 7-ish on the outside, although their presentation is, upon closer inspection, far more meticulous (Sexual 3 is smoother, more seductive. 7s are a bit dorkier and more genuinely oblivious unless they are more mature). however, on the inside, there is an underlying sadness to Sexual 3, a feeling that they're not quite good enough and need to be more desirable, more lovable, a better ideal of masculine/feminine beauty.


I can relate to 4's periods of "I'm awesome" mixed with periods of stereotypical sad 4,but I look fairly normal on the outside except with my family,I add a little extra 4 for them:tongue:
I generally feel like I can control my emotions(well,at least how I'm expressing them) so maybe that points to 3?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Rinnie said:


> Okay, from this description alone you're for sure not a 3 dom @KindOfBlue06.
> (Kidding:tongue:<3).


honestly, I think @KindOfBlue06 is Sexual 6. he is more polarizing, charismatic and _raw_ than the more polished Sexual 3 (Sexual 3s lack his intensity). Sexual 3 is less reactive and doesn't have quite the "bursting at the seems" quality of Sexual 6. if not Sexual 6, Sexual 2 would be my next guess.

PS: I've said this before on other occasions, but imo, "Charisma" as a theme is far more applicable to 2s, Sexual 4s and 8s (and often to 7s, Sexual 1s and Sexual 6s) than it is to Sexual 3s. charisma entails a certain "take it or leave it" quality and a genuine not giving a shit about the inevitable people who hate your unapologetic displays of self expression. blue has this in spades, Sexual 3s do not


----------



## cinnabun

Swordsman of Mana said:


> honestly, I think @_KindOfBlue06_ is Sexual 6. he is more polarizing, charismatic and _raw_ than the more polished Sexual 3 (Sexual 3s lack his intensity). Sexual 3 is less reactive and doesn't have quite the "bursting at the seems" quality of Sexual 6. if not Sexual 6, Sexual 2 would be my next guess.
> 
> PS: I've said this before on other occasions, but imo, "Charisma" as a theme is far more applicable to 2s, Sexual 4s and 8s (and often to 7s, Sexual 1s and Sexual 6s) than it is to Sexual 3s. charisma entails a certain "take it or leave it" quality and a genuine not giving a shit about the inevitable people who hate your unapologetic displays of self expression. blue has this in spades, Sexual 3s do not


I've told him how I think he's sx 6w7, but he doesn't see it, and since I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to enneagram, I cant back up my claim for shit XD. He definitely has the whole trust/security thing that sixes have, although he doesn't see it. I keep telling him to talk to Lunar Light and he hasn't yet :dry::tongue:.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Living dead said:


> Actually 4 sounds more like me
> I have this haughty diva mask,always had it,but I truly don't even know what's underneath it because even when I'm extremely insecure I express it in haughty diva way,that's why I was convinced I was sx 4w3 when I was depressed.*I guess I don't wanna show what's underneath*,and I don't think it's true vulnerabilty I'm scared of,it's more like readiness to just turn my back on the world and do my thing but I feel like I can't let that happen.Edit: And that could be where hate for "withdrawn" comes from,also probably envy.It sounds wrong but in some way appealing


The bolded does point away from 4 to me, although even 4 can lack awareness of course, I think they at least have the compulsion to scratch away at the surface in an attempt to find what's underneath. 

Although you do show some curiosity in trying to find your real type I guess. 

Also, what would be wrong about turning your back on the world? :tongue:


----------



## Darkbloom

Kink said:


> The bolded does point away from 4 to me, although even 4 can lack awareness of course, I think they at least have the compulsion to scratch away at the surface in an attempt to find what's underneath.
> 
> Although you do show some curiosity in trying to find your real type I guess.
> 
> Also, what would be wrong about turning your back on the world? :tongue:


Well yes,I'm obviously being a very strange 3 just by looking into types so deeply lol

I don't know,it's just weird and wrong and what would be the point then?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm still figuring out my tritype, but right now I seem settled on 2w1 as my core type. While I still have to go through my thread and recall the arguments given for that not being my core type, it seems right now that's the best fit for me. If you don't think this is fitting for me, please do not hesitate to tell me, whether on this thread or on my typing thread. Thank you ~


----------



## Coburn

Questions:

1. What type would consider themselves a "professional worrier" and get more anxious the more they lose control of their environment?

2. What type would "detach" when they realized they were going to lose in a conflict situation (not necessarily an argument, maybe a competitive situation or a situation where they were being forcefully deprived of something they wanted/needed)?

EDIT: by detach, I mean lose general interest/seriousness in the conflict as a whole. They sort of just accept they're not going to get what they want and suddenly stop caring.


----------



## cinnabun

@Superfluous

Blue has a clear 8 fix, he's so 8 it hurts lol. He's 8w9 so that's why he may appear 9 to some, but honestly he's too aggressive and dominant to be a 9. I know what you mean with the sexual 4, I relate to that strongly too that I was like um...2? Really? What was I thinking? I think most people actually confuse 6 with 8 instead of 4 and 8. I was one of them lol. I used to think my gut fix was 8 (trolololol) and that I was 7w8 instead of 7w6. Part of that was because I didn't want to admit I had any 6 in me, as I viewed 6 to be weak and paranoid, and I viewed 8 to be strong and fierce, so I wanted to be seen as an 8. @Animal actually opened my eyes about that, how people can mistake the fiery 6 for strong 8. Tbh I think a lot of people who type as 8 actually have some sort of 6 in them lol. Anyway, what made you type as 8w9? I seen that and was like whoa, really? I'm 9w8 gut type too. I have a strong 8 wing, so it's easy to confuse yourself for being an 8 dominant, but the key thing to look at is the fears for 8's, and their motivations. 8's have this "loss if innocence" thing because they felt their childhood was stolen from them, and that's why they feel the need to protect those who they view as vulnerable.

Btw I'm talking out of my ass for the majority of this so don't totally take my word for it lol .


----------



## Morfy

Rinnay said:


> @Superfluous
> 
> Blue has a clear 8 fix, he's so 8 it hurts lol. He's 8w9 so that's why he may appear 9 to some, but honestly he's too aggressive and dominant to be a 9. I know what you mean with the sexual 4, I relate to that strongly too that I was like um...2? Really? What was I thinking? I think most people actually confuse 6 with 8 instead of 4 and 8. I was one of them lol. I used to think my gut fix was 8 (trolololol) and that I was 7w8 instead of 7w6. Part of that was because I didn't want to admit I had any 6 in me, as I viewed 6 to be weak and paranoid, and I viewed 8 to be strong and fierce, so I wanted to be seen as an 8. @Animal actually opened my eyes about that, how people can mistake the fiery 6 for strong 8. Tbh I think a lot of people who type as 8 actually have some sort of 6 in them lol. Anyway, what made you type as 8w9? I seen that and was like whoa, really? I'm 9w8 gut type too. I have a strong 8 wing, so it's easy to confuse yourself for being an 8 dominant, but the key thing to look at is the fears for 8's, and their motivations. 8's have this "loss if innocence" thing because they felt their childhood was stolen from them, and that's why they feel the need to protect those who they view as vulnerable.
> 
> Btw I'm talking out of my ass for the majority of this so don't totally take my word for it lol .


Can I be a 7w8 owo?


----------



## cinnabun

Morfinyon said:


> Can I be a 7w8 owo?


Yes, you are the most 7w8. So 7 it hurts.


----------



## Paradigm

Pilot said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1. What type would consider themselves a "professional worrier" and get more anxious the more they lose control of their environment?
> 
> 2. What type would "detach" when they realized they were going to lose in a conflict situation (not necessarily an argument, maybe a competitive situation or a situation where they were being forcefully deprived of something they wanted/needed)?
> 
> EDIT: by detach, I mean lose general interest/seriousness in the conflict as a whole. They sort of just accept they're not going to get what they want and suddenly stop caring.


Could honestly be most types. But you might start with looking at 1, 3, or 6 (and maybe 9).


----------



## aendern

I think I finally have figured it out.

sp > *sx* > so

All this time I have assumed sp > so > sx

but it makes so much more sense now. I'm so clearly an so last.

edit:

Now it feels so stupid that I ever considered myself social to any extent.

Because after reading these descriptions:
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ce-thread-instinctual-variants-stackings.html

It's clear that I am such a social inferior. I could not be less social if I tried.

And actually, those descriptions make me see a lot of sexual in myself. 

So much so that it almost makes me wonder--shit--am I a sexual DOM?

Because a lot of the self-pres description is heavily Si-focused (which naturally I cannot relate to), but I see very easily how I'm very Ni in my self pres approach. Something the description fails to include. But I know that it should and that it is wrong and poorly-written and clearly written by someone who has never met a self-pres INTJ.

Sp dom is described as very rudimentary, simple, domestic. This is not how my sp manifests at all. I could not be less domestic if I tried. I would actually describe myself as _*anti*_-domestic. But I still would argue that I'm a self-pres dom. And that the description is VERY short-sighted and only includes Si self-pres and not Ni self-pres. 

And, anyway, the _concept _of self-pres I very much relate to. And there's no way I'm an sx dom. It's very clear, at least to me, that my main motivation is self preservation. This is my main instinct in life. Browsing through the sx dom thread, I am not one of those people. That's plain to see.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@emberfly
What made you think you were So>Sx before? I figure your interpretations have changed, but I'm curious how.


----------



## Superfluous

Rinnay said:


> @Superfluous
> 
> Blue has a clear 8 fix, he's so 8 it hurts lol. He's 8w9 so that's why he may appear 9 to some, but honestly he's too aggressive and dominant to be a 9. I know what you mean with the sexual 4, I relate to that strongly too that I was like um...2? Really? What was I thinking? I think most people actually confuse 6 with 8 instead of 4 and 8. I was one of them lol. I used to think my gut fix was 8 (trolololol) and that I was 7w8 instead of 7w6. Part of that was because I didn't want to admit I had any 6 in me, as I viewed 6 to be weak and paranoid, and I viewed 8 to be strong and fierce, so I wanted to be seen as an 8. @Animal actually opened my eyes about that, how people can mistake the fiery 6 for strong 8. Tbh I think a lot of people who type as 8 actually have some sort of 6 in them lol. Anyway, what made you type as 8w9? I seen that and was like whoa, really? I'm 9w8 gut type too. I have a strong 8 wing, so it's easy to confuse yourself for being an 8 dominant, but the key thing to look at is the fears for 8's, and their motivations. 8's have this "loss if innocence" thing because they felt their childhood was stolen from them, and that's why they feel the need to protect those who they view as vulnerable.
> 
> Btw I'm talking out of my ass for the majority of this so don't totally take my word for it lol .


Do I not appear as the person who protects the vulnerable? Also, Im most likely a 9 gut, as 9 motivations are in me, yet 9 fears are not much a priority of mine. Could possibly be a 7w8 9w1


----------



## mikan

What is this thread about? Judging by comments you're trying to think out loud while correcting your mistype? Am I wrong?


----------



## cinnabun

Superfluous said:


> Do I not appear as the person who protects the vulnerable? Also, Im most likely a 9 gut, as 9 motivations are in me, yet 9 fears are not much a priority of mine. Could possibly be a 7w8 9w1 instead of 7w6 8w9




I don't know you well enough to make that assessment. 

But from what I DO know, I'd say you're correctly typed as 7w6, because you're sassy and dramatic like me . That being said, 7w8 is still possible (because isn't everything? \o/). I don't see an 8 gut fix from you, though.

People you want to talk to if you're considering an 8 fix: @Animal and @ATLeow both these motherfuckers know what's up.
People you want to talk to if you're consideing 7w8 core: @Vajra because I'm pretty sure she is? If not, talk to her about 8 in general, I've heard she's the only true 8 lol. And @Swordsman of Mana, cause he used to type as 7w8. Dude I know you're typing as 5 these days and that's cool if it genuinley applied to you, but you seem to flamboyant and aggressive to be a 5 . 

I would say talk to Blue, but sometimes he says to me: You know, I think I have a 9 fix, and I'm like: lol...bitch, no.


----------



## Sina

Rinnay said:


> : @_Vajra_ because I'm pretty sure she is? If not, talk to her about 8 in general, *I've heard she's the only true 8 lol.*












rofl


----------



## Darkbloom

@alittlebear,been wanting to ask you for a while,what do you think about two of us being the same type?
We were always a bit sceptical of each other's types and now I'm getting more and more convinced of you being a 2 as well as me being a 2 but we are just so different in many ways,so it feels weird because every time I find an argument for me being a 2 it doesn't seem to fit in your case and when I read some of your posts and think "This could be 2" it doesn't fit my 2 XD
It's mostly our self-concepts that confuse me,they are very different for the most part,almost opposite

Anyway,I know it's a hard question but I'm curious what you think about it atm


----------



## Superfluous

Rinnay said:


> I don't know you well enough to make that assessment.
> 
> But from what I DO know, I'd say you're correctly typed as 7w6, because you're sassy and dramatic like me . That being said, 7w8 is still possible (because isn't everything? \o/). I don't see an 8 gut fix from you, though.
> 
> People you want to talk to if you're considering an 8 fix: @Animal and @ATLeow both these motherfuckers know what's up.
> People you want to talk to if you're consideing 7w8 core: @Vajra because I'm pretty sure she is? If not, talk to her about 8 in general, I've heard she's the only true 8 lol. And @Swordsman of Mana, cause he used to type as 7w8. Dude I know you're typing as 5 these days and that's cool if it genuinley applied to you, but you seem to flamboyant and aggressive to be a 5 .
> 
> I would say talk to Blue, but sometimes he says to me: You know, I think I have a 9 fix, and I'm like: lol...bitch, no.


Ill keep that in mind, thanks.


----------



## cinnabun

Vajra said:


> rofl


:shocked:

I has heard lies!?


----------



## Adena

Debating if I'm 2w3 or 3w2. Also, I'm not sure if my fix is 6 or 7. Urgh, decisions, decisions...


----------



## Darkbloom

Gray Romantic said:


> Debating if I'm 2w3 or 3w2. Also, I'm not sure if my fix is 6 or 7. Urgh, decisions, decisions...


Again??
Not saying I'm much better,but still 

Anyway,I'd personally say 3w2 over 2w3,just seems to work with how I see you.

What makes you think 2w3?


----------



## Adena

Living dead said:


> Again??
> Not saying I'm much better,but still
> 
> Anyway,I'd personally say 3w2 over 2w3,just seems to work with how I see you.
> 
> What makes you think 2w3?


Hahaha JUST THINKING

I'm pretty sure it's 3, but my 2 is pretty strong as well and I tend to relate with 2 a lot. BUT I don't know xD

I'm having a lot more troubles with the 6w7 or 7w6 thing. Like, what the hell.


----------



## Darkbloom

Gray Romantic said:


> Hahaha JUST THINKING
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's 3, but my 2 is pretty strong as well and I tend to relate with 2 a lot. BUT I don't know xD
> 
> I'm having a lot more troubles with the 6w7 or 7w6 thing. Like, what the hell.


God,I hate head fixes 

What seems wrong with 7w6,aside from the fact that you never typed as 7 before people told you that you look kinda 7? XD
(not implying it's not there though, I just totally get your confusion )


----------



## Adena

Living dead said:


> God,I hate head fixes
> 
> What seems wrong with 7w6,aside from the fact that you never typed as 7 before people told you that you look kinda 7? XD
> (not implying it's not there though, I just totally get your confusion )


Just that haha. I never considered 7 but after people said it I can see it. But 6... Don't know, urgh. The 369 doesn't fit me, though.


----------



## Paradigm

Mandraque said:


> Ok, I want some advice on me being a 5w6 So. I have some topics that point to that. First of all, I am diagnosed with PSTD, social anxiety (now 90% treated) and with dependent personality disorder. Those mental illness have no connection to the enneagram, since the enneagram is not about severe pathology disorders. There it goes my reasoning for typing as 5:
> [...]
> So, now I want some input on @_Paradigm_ ,


Well frankly most arguments people make to try to rationalize 5 just make me facepalm, so I'ma stay away from this with a 10ft pole. Sorry :\


----------



## DomNapoleon

Paradigm said:


> Well frankly most arguments people make to try to rationalize 5 just make me facepalm, so I'ma stay away from this with a 10ft pole. Sorry :\


No problem, I understand you. There are so many mistyped 5s around the forum... I just wanted to check if I am one of them. :frustrating:


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Any idea on my heart fix ? Anoyone ? Its currently 3 but maybe 2 is possible too. Or even 4 :th_woot:

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/531137-lets-find-my-heart-fix.html

Thx


----------



## Paradigm

crashbandicoot said:


> Any idea on my heart fix ? Anoyone ? Its currently 3 but maybe 2 is possible too. Or even 4 :th_woot:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/531137-lets-find-my-heart-fix.html
> 
> Thx


Your thread isn't very informative about how you relate to any of those types. Can you go into more detail?


----------



## aendern

Okay despite saying many times to the contrary, I see how I am 7 in a lot of ways.

I do not think this was self-denial or lying to myself  Although I absolutely see how it looks that way . . . 

I guess I was taking the descriptions at their word and trusting them too much. The descriptions of 7 mostly suck. This is because they describe dominant 7s. Which I'm obviously not, so no-brainer I can't relate.


I see how I'm a lot more 6 than I wanted to see myself as. Again, I would blame descriptions more than myself. 

The terminology frequently used to describe 6: anxious, fearful, . . .

1. Not only do I not see myself that way at all
2. but I don't think I am that way either.

3. Skeptical, however, yes! Definitely.
4. quasi-paranoid . . . yes! I'm even that way.


I think 6 can be summed up in one word: Skeptical.

and I don't think more words need to even be added to describe 6. Fearful and anxious are not how 6 is normally. And it's really no surprise that a healthy 6 isn't going to readily identify as fearful and anxious. No healthy person can.


But I do think I'm 6 dom. I embrace it. I see how the happiest times of my life have been very 6-influenced. 6 mixed with a very shy and restrained 7.


I read up more on type 3 and realized that I'm a lot less type 3 than I thought I was. I realized that I'm only really 3 when I'm unhealthy. I'm not 3 when I'm happy and comfortable. I'm not a dominant 3.


I'm still not 1000% sure which type I integrate to. But I have a hunch that It's type 8 to some extent. Because when I'm at my happiest, I feel a lot more aggressive and assertive.

And I think this could be because it's 8-influenced. 

I would almost even say 7w8. Or 8w7.

I don't think I'm 9 *at all*. (thank god honestly). Or type 1 (again, thank fucking god)
[hr][/hr]
Still, I want an explanation for why I identify with type 5 so strongly if I'm not even a 5?

I guess I could be 6w5 who integrates into 7w8. And it just so happens to be a rather semi-frequent integration since caffeine causes it for the most part. And I drink that like daily.

And looking in the mirror integrates me too ★~(◡‿◕✿)


----------



## cinnabun

emberfly said:


> I guess I was taking the descriptions at their word and trusting them too much. The descriptions of 7 mostly suck. This is because they describe dominant 7s. Which I'm obviously not, so no-brainer I can't relate.


I can get that to some extent, but you should still of been able to relate if you have a 7 wing along with your core type. For instance, a lot of people have said I'm a 6 core (lawl) because my 6 wing is strong, and while I can relate to the descriptions of type 6, it doesn't fully describe me as a whole, you see what I'm saying?



emberfly said:


> 3. Skeptical, however, yes! Definitely.
> 4. quasi-paranoid . . . yes! I'm even that way.


Not saying you're not a 6 cause I don't know you, but every type can be sceptical and paranoid, especially the head types. You need to be a bit more specific.



emberfly said:


> Fearful and anxious are not how 6 is normally.


Not to sure about that:frustrating:.



emberfly said:


> I feel a lot more aggressive and assertive.





emberfly said:


> And I think this could be because it's 8-influenced.
> 
> I would almost even say 7w8. Or 8w7.


You could be a 6 core with an 8 fix, which is why you relate to 8 tendencies (I'm not saying you're not because, again, I don't know you) but the thing to remember is, a lot of people who are type 6, or have a 6 fix, commonly mistake that as 8. Most people see 8 as this confident, dominant, aggressive type, and while that's true to some extent, the people who assume they're 8 are actually 6. 

6 is very feisty and reactive (especially if you're a counter-phobic 6) and they can be really rebellious and aggressive in their own way. I agree the descriptions for 6's are shitty, because basically what it's saying is: if you're a 6 you're just a shaking bag of leaves, bye. That's not true at all, 6's are very strong-willed and brave, and they stick to their guns, probably more so than any other type (IMO).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the last part, are you saying you could also be a core 7w8/8w7? Although I don't know you that well, from the few posts I've read, I really can't see core 8w7 as an option.


----------



## aendern

RinnayDelRey said:


> I can get that to some extent, but you should still of been able to relate if you have a 7 wing along with your core type. For instance, a lot of people have said I'm a 6 core (lawl) because my 6 wing is strong, and while I can relate to the descriptions of type 6, it doesn't fully describe me as a whole, you see what I'm saying?


 Please. 

I can relate to all of the types (except for type 2). And none of them describe me as a whole.



> Not saying you're not a 6 cause I don't know you, but every type can be sceptical and paranoid, especially the head types. You need to be a bit more specific.


? !?! I don't need to do anything.



> You could be a 6 core with an 8 fix,


?!? You mean tritype? That's what I was talking about . . . 



> which is why you relate to 8 tendencies (I'm not saying you're not because, again, I don't know you) but the thing to remember is, a lot of people who are type 6, or have a 6 fix, commonly mistake that as 8. Most people see 8 as this confident, dominant, aggressive type, and while that's true to some extent, the people who assume they're 8 are actually 6.


I doubt that. Maybe counter-phobic 6s see themselves easily as 8s, but I doubt most people who see themselves as 8s aren't 8s. 8s get a pretty bad rap. I doubt most people would accidentally mistype themselves that way.



> 6 is very feisty and reactive (especially if you're a counter-phobic 6) and they can be really rebellious and aggressive in their own way. I agree the descriptions for 6's are shitty, because basically what it's saying is: if you're a 6 you're just a shaking bag of leaves, bye. That's not true at all, 6's are very strong-willed and brave, and they stick to their guns, probably more so than any other type (IMO).


Perhaps because 6 can manifest as either counter phobic or phobic (or swing between the two), it makes type 6 difficult to describe.

In any case, I don't identify as a shaking bag of leaves. And you're right--that's exactly the impression the descriptions give.



> I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the last part, are you saying you could also be a core 7w8/8w7?


No, I said integrate.


----------



## cinnabun

emberfly said:


> Please.
> 
> I can relate to all of the types (except for type 2). And none of them describe me as a whole.


Please what? I was only trying to help lol :S. You made it sound like you didn't identify with 7 at all.




emberfly said:


> !?! I don't need to do anything.


Um...k?

My bad. You posted in the mistyped thread, where people come and ask for advice. I assumed that's what you wanted?


----------



## cinnabun

And nope, there are a LOT of fake 8's running aroud here. 90% of people who claim to be 8 are most likely NOT an 8.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Mandraque said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I want some advice on me being a 5w6 So. I have some topics that point to that. First of all, I am diagnosed with PSTD, social anxiety (now 90% treated) and with dependent personality disorder. Those mental illness have no connection to the enneagram, since the enneagram is not about severe pathology disorders. There it goes my reasoning for typing as 5:
> 
> -First of all, my first mode is to be in total *isolation* from the world. I see myself more as an observer than a participant in life. I am inside of my mind almost every time. I envy a lot people who can go outside and engage in the physical world and in activities that are pleasurable, but I am far away from it.
> 
> -I am detached from the physical world. My first mode is to search for knowledge and to follow my own interests. Seriously I can spend days, searching on topics that interest me, and don't feel like I am missing out. I also spend a lot of time in home, like months, and thus I am really not out there. I try to minimize my needs with the external world as much as possible. The only thing that can makes me go out to the world is my friends and booze (yeah I have some alcoholic tendencies). Why do I pursuit knowledge? Because I feel lost in the world (head center) and the only way to fulfill my insecurities is to make sure I know everything about an issue or make sure that I know its basics concepts. But here it goes the dilemma of ''One question leads to another and another and another...'' and so it seems like I am never into action.
> 
> -I am emotionally aloof. I am very detached from my own emotions and that happens because they drain me. Some people on the outside would claim that I look empty, depressed (smh long before I was in depression people would claim that) and emotionally detached. The only people I open up my feelings are my friends and even to do that it takes a long time.
> 
> -At my best, I am extremely independent, insightful, with a sharp mind and in connection with people, without feeling draining by it. I both love and hate people. As a social 5, like people to listen to my insights and knowledge in order to be ''accepted'' in the group, but that may take a while due to my shyness. On the other hand, some people just dismiss my opinions, because they are not as advanced as I am. (I am a bit of an intellectual snob)
> 
> -Deep down I feel I am not as skilled as others and so I try my best to achieve what others can do. I feel like inferior in some ways, and the wing6 doesn't help. I am very researcher, I crave for the depths on knowledge. Reading is one of the things that gives me immensely pleasure.
> 
> -I feel like I am stuck in my mind all the time. My defense mechanism is isolation, which makes me go away from people. You may be asking why not 6w5? Easy answer. I have a strong connection to the e-type 7. Going on on adventures, travelling, making things for fun (when I am healthy) is just great. But like I said my first mode is to be like a hermetic, totally isolated from the world. I feel like I am superior to others (power searching triad) and that I am way more advanced intellectually. I just don't feel like I should open that much. Privacy is a big issue for me.
> 
> -Just for curiosity, when I was in high school, I adhered to ''solipsism'' Philosophy. It was a big srurprise when I discovered Decartes Philosophy, because that was EXACTLY my way of thinking.
> 
> So, now I want some input on @_Paradigm_ , @_Swordsman of Mana_ , @Vajavra (if it's possible :kitteh @_Animal_ , @_katherine8_ and @_kaleidoscope_ . Oh and @_Flatlander_
> 
> Thank you.


Okay, I know you didn't mention me =) but all I can clearly determine in your post is that you likely are an INFJ and have a head core. 

I personally don't acquire knowledge due to any insecurities, I do it because I am convinced that it the only way I can survive - by understanding both myself and the world in order to successfully navigate it and more importantly be able to make the most logical and optimal decisions for me. I type as a 5 because I am always hiding in some kind of pose. It's like I'm constantly watching myself, watching myself especially with other people. I have a great deal of trouble accessing my emotions because as a child, I was either punished for them or they were ignored. I am mostly terrified of being engulfed by the rest of the world and I seek knowledge mainly as a way to prevent this from happening.

So, I have no idea whether you're 5 from that post or not.


----------



## Vaka

I've read lots of descriptions and particularly like Naranjo and OceanMoonshine but the one thing I still don't understand when it comes to head fixes is fear or anxiety. I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who's had anxiety, I mean the diagnosed disorder kind. It's hard to know where the line is when both are called "anxiety". I've seen the pure destructive force anxiety has and I know it can't be the same and so I can't find something unifying about the head fixes 

Do the head fixes relate to something broader and more existential rather than momentary and fleeting which? Fear of the unknown is often thrown off to type 6, I've wondered if they all deal with it just in different, maybe less direct ways

The unknown can be seen as something momentary, like you're walking into a dark room and don't know where you're going. But in a broader sense I'd relate it to something universal to all humans...Awareness of something 'more', past their own consciousness, even physical awareness of what's all around them, but not quite knowing what it is or what it will really mean to them ultimately. Is that what it is?

Like when I was a child, up to the age of about 14, I used to be afraid of my family dying, rarely ever myself, mostly them. I'd picture it in my head and it'd eat away at me, make me cry. I had to find some way to calm my mind and help me sleep, and when I was a small child that usually meant calling my mom. I rapidly became a less anxious person, but now every now and then, I do get anxiety about myself and my life and it can be fucking crippling. Last year I had it for a couple of months because I felt like I wasn't able to become what I wanted to. I'm just not sure that means I'm a 6 fix or not. Sometimes I get obsessed and bug the shit out of people who might have invited me to talk to them even, sometimes I have to get reassurance from people I'm just not seeing what's really there because my thoughts are attacking me or bringing me down


----------



## FakeLefty

RinnayDelRey said:


> And nope, there are a LOT of fake 8's running aroud here. 90% of people who claim to be 8 are most likely NOT an 8.


How would you tell the fake 8's apart from the real 8's? What makes a real 8 an 8?


----------



## Golden Rose

FakeLefty said:


> How would you tell the fake 8's apart from the real 8's? What makes a real 8 an 8?


As much as I enjoy the ATE meme, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that 8 is such a controversial type.

The Enneagram is mainly a tool for private introspection but self typing as an 8 means you have to go through the seven gates of hell to prove your type, it happens in a toned down version to 7s and 4s. 5s are so dime a dozen that no one even bothers with all of the idealization and misconceptions linked to the type. I understand that 8s aren't stereotypically drawn to the enneagram but this seems more a matter of "prove me you're strong enough to be a core 8" which I can understand, given that many ATEs act like assholes to show off their type, but it's getting out of hand.

Type 6 is so over diagnosed, it's not funny. I love core 6s deeply but not everyone is a 6.
Half of the misconceptions stem from "most common type as most people are paranoid, snappy and unsure"


----------



## Paradigm

Hotaru said:


> Type 6 is so over diagnosed, it's not funny. I love core 6s deeply but not everyone is a 6.
> Half of the misconceptions stem from "most common type as most people are paranoid, snappy and unsure"


I half agree with this, but half don't. I think CP6 is too quick to be typed, as if P6 is something to be ashamed of. And I think 5 is over-typed, whether it be by self and others. "Oh, you're a little afraid and don't like talking? Must be 5."

4 is obvious, it appeals to the teenage crowd which is half of PerC.

I think there's probably more 2, 3, and 9s than people think. And 1s. And 7s, especially for the introverts.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Paradigm said:


> And 7s, especially for the introverts.


Are you saying that there's lots of under-typed 7 introverts and how would one recognise a 7 introvert?


----------



## Paradigm

Chesire Tower said:


> Are you saying that there's lots of under-typed 7 introverts and how would one recognise a 7 introvert?


Yes, I am. I think introverted 7s are very possible, and not just SOC-last ones. The problem stems from _very_ poor descriptions. 7s aren't all sociable party-goers who can't commit. They're just people who rely on distraction and activity to cope, neither of which actually rely on putting your energy outward. "Activity" can be anything you want, from extreme sports to knitting.

So the basic 7 traits -- optimism, distraction coping mechanisms, gluttony, etc -- are not impossible for an introvert. 

It seems probable that people mistake 5's avarice for 7's gluttony, but just dismiss 7 because they're not outgoing.


Edited "7s are all" to "7s aren't all" hours later because typos suck.


----------



## Golden Rose

Paradigm said:


> I half agree with this, but half don't. I think CP6 is too quick to be typed, as if P6 is something to be ashamed of. And I think 5 is over-typed, whether it be by self and others. "Oh, you're a little afraid and don't like talking? Must be 5."


Any non-sexual type gets a lot of flack, in my opinion.
P6 and Soc 4 are especially bad in that regard, social subtypes in general too.

I didn't mean that 5 isn't over-typed because I see 5s and 4s around every corner and most of them are completely relying on stereotypes. I don't really care about calling out others, both because I follow a "live and let live" approach and because I'm in no way infallible or an expert, but it's undeniable. Yet type 5 seems to fly past the radar a lot more than 4 or 8, probably because of its nature.


> 4 is obvious, it appeals to the teenage crowd which is half of PerC.


In a way, I feel like a perennial angsty teenager myself but I definitely can see your point.
Main issue with type 4 is that most descriptions are completely off base and overly glorified, as if this was the ultimate artistic type with charming quirks and endearing mysterious vibes. 

In all truth, 4s are a depressing, self-loathing, closed off, moody, entitled, jealous, envious, broody and pretentious lot but no one really wants to touch upon the negatives of a type. No wonder the least 'popular' are the ones with the worst flaws.



> I think there's probably more 2, 3, and 9s than people think. And 1s. And 7s, especially for the introverts.


There's a lot of 9s around but I think there's way more 1s, 2s and 3s than expected. Agreed on that.
7 is actually a good match for types like INFP and INTP if you think about it.

Escaping from reality? Check.
Extreme individualism? Check.
Idealistic, curious, seeking stimulation and ideas? Check
Constantly escaping boredom? Check
Seeing themselves as more negative than they are? Check
Always trying to motivate themselves into keeping on going? Check
Honest, loyal, understanding and genuine? Check
Obsessive about their passions, bustling with ideas? Check
Self centered and entitled? Check
Feeling a lingering sense of anxiety that they fight? Check

It's a terrific match, especially for INFPs.
I see a lot of INFP sx 4s as if that was the norm and half of them are just so... bouncy. People oriented.
Not that a sexual 4 cannot be but there's so much positivity and need for approval that it makes me wonder.

Of course I believe that no stranger can truly type a person since it's all about their hidden insides.
But it's also easy to see through pretenses after a while.


----------



## aerotropic

I wouldn't be surprised if over half of the people on this forum are mistyped. It seems to skew extremely young (much younger than some other forums), and young people are less certain of their identities. In general, I have more faith in the self-typing of users on other forums than on this one. The folks on INTJ Forum and Typology Central seem more self-aware and knowledgable overall. This forum is more fun, though, and there's some great information here. 

As for myself, I used to believe that I was a 9w1 because I don't like engaging in conflict. I also misunderstood what it meant to value my inner peace. Who doesn't want to be peaceful at least some of the time, right? But actions speak louder than words, and my desire to achieve inner peace is thwarted by my desire to obsessively research the topics that upset me the most. ("Leave me alone, Mom! Let me write angsty poetry and spend another few hours sketching pictures of dismembered bodies_ in peace_!")


----------



## Paradigm

> I didn't mean that 5 isn't over-typed because I see 5s and 4s around every corner and most of them are completely relying on stereotypes. I don't really care about calling out others, both because I follow a "live and let live" approach and because I'm in no way infallible or an expert, but it's undeniable.


That's why I don't really engage in discussion about it, especially nowadays. There's no real appreciation for the difference between 5 and the whole slew of other reasons that can cause 5-like traits. Not saying other types don't have this problem, too (see: 6 and anxiety disorders), but so many people here identify as introverted or asocial so 5 gets the brunt of it.



> Main issue with type 4 is that most descriptions are completely off base and overly glorified, as if this was the ultimate artistic type with charming quirks and endearing mysterious vibes.
> In all truth, 4s are a depressing, self-loathing, closed off, moody, entitled, jealous, envious, broody and pretentious lot but no one really wants to touch upon the negatives of a type. No wonder the least 'popular' are the ones with the worst flaws.


I love how the 4 marks 4 as the worst type ever :tongue: No type has worse or better flaws than any other, it's all a matter of perception.

I wish more descriptions explained the nuances rather than behavioral traits or DSM crap. And the whole misconception that 4s (and 5s) are the only alienated ones, or the only ones with any desire for authenticity or privacy.



> There's a lot of 9s around but I think there's way more 1s, 2s and 3s than expected. Agreed on that.
> 7 is actually a good match for types like INFP and INTP if you think about it.


Actually, there's not (source) a lot of 9s. Not as many as I would expect, I guess.

7 is a great match for xxNP types, as they lean towards scattered planning with the Ne. ISTP 7s are fairly common IMO, too. xxNJ 7s would be very different from what people expect of the type, but I don't think it's unlikely at all; they'd be more "focused" but still use the same mechanisms. 

Overall, as I implied earlier, I think 7 is a very misunderstood type. 3 gets the same treatment, really; according to people here, if you're not successful or looking to become the next CEO, you can't be a 3. And SOC, because everyone here hates small talk and people so obviously that means they can't be SOC (misanthropic SOCs exist, dudes).


----------



## aerotropic

I've found that most people identify with whichever type feeds their ego the most. Type Six isn't generally seen as a desirable type, but a Four might identify as a Six if they don't want to perceive themselves as dramatic, self-absorbed, etc. It all depends on how much self-awareness they have, which has no direction relation to type. 

The emphasis on instinctual variants also makes it harder for individuals to figure out their core type. (Don't even get me started on trityping!) So many people act like the variants can completely and utterly distort how our core types manifest, and that simply isn't true. Sexual Fives might seem more Fourish than Self-Preservation Fives, but it isn't a wild departure. They're still going to behave and feel like Fives. 

Although I agree that Type Six shouldn't be treated as a catch-all category, I would bet money on it being the most prevalent type around here. The second most common might be Type Four. Fours have a compulsive need to understand their identity and express themselves, which is the main reason for the existence of this forum. It makes sense that there would be a disproportionate number of Fours here, even though some of them are bound to be mistyped. 

To be honest, I'm not sure why large community forums with avatars and member profiles and selfie threads are considered comfortable places for Fives to inhabit. There are way more Fives on 4chan than on a place like this; we love our anonymity. I would be delighted if there was a typology board where everyone could stay anonymous.


----------



## cinnabun

FakeLefty said:


> How would you tell the fake 8's apart from the real 8's? What makes a real 8 an 8?



A good starting point is to look at those who are desperate to claim to be a core 8, or have an 8 fix. Most likely they don't, but they want to appear to be 8, because 8 has this reputation of being "tough, strong and powerful" and a lot of people want to be like that. Real 8's don't care, and would probably disagree they're an 8.

Of course, I'm not saying this is how it always is, but this is from what I've seen around here.



Paradigm said:


> Yes, I am. I think introverted 7s are very possible, and not just SOC-last ones. The problem stems from _very_ poor descriptions. 7s are all sociable party-goers who can't commit. They're just people who rely on distraction and activity to cope, neither of which actually rely on putting your energy outward. "Activity" can be anything you want, from extreme sports to knitting.
> 
> So the basic 7 traits -- optimism, distraction coping mechanisms, gluttony, etc -- are not impossible for an introvert.
> 
> It seems probable that people mistake 5's avarice for 7's gluttony, but just dismiss 7 because they're not outgoing.



I totally agree with this, I think there are a lot of introverted 7's around here actually. I'm thinking I could be one myself, but then again, ENFPs can be really introverted...so...meh.


----------



## cinnabun

Enneagram stereotypes/false images:

Type 1: Boring, too rigid, obsessed with the law. Most likely be a lawyer.
Type 2: The selfless angel who can do no wrong.
Type 3: The sneaky, heartless businessman who will do everything he can to obtain power, even if it means fucking you over.
Type 4: The emo...enough said.
Type 5: Anti-social loner who stays in their room 24/7 reading...cause they be getting dat knowledge, yo.
Type 6: Paranoid schizophrenic.
Type 7: The crazy party girl/whore. Is the most likely out of all types to die from a drug overdose.
Type 8: Aggressive, strong, powerful and dominant. Oh, you speak your mind? Wow, what a bitch, so you're most likely an 8.
Type 9: Lazy pussies who can't stand up for themselves. 


lol \o/


----------



## Golden Rose

Paradigm said:


> That's why I don't really engage in discussion about it, especially nowadays. There's no real appreciation for the difference between 5 and the whole slew of other reasons that can cause 5-like traits. Not saying other types don't have this problem, too (see: 6 and anxiety disorders), but so many people here identify as introverted or asocial so 5 gets the brunt of it.


This is something that always made me sway in my own self perception in relation to types, as well as other personal factors and a certain feeling of existential shame. I have some mental disorders that might be easy to trick the compass pointer toward any direction hence why I will always support seeing and understanding a person past simple appearances. 

It's all about hidden motives not behaviors. _Why_? rather than _What_? or _How_?

Type 5 is a cookie cutter 'introvert' type and most of the people I know chose it as fix, despite being quite clear 6 or 7 fixed. Same for 4 being everyone's standard heart type. There's many four fixed people but it's quite absurd how terrified most PerCers are of typing themselves as 2s or 3s (which makes sense from an image point of view for both types, they don't want to label themselves as anything unpopular so they take the camouflage route)



> I love how the 4 marks 4 as the worst type ever :tongue: No type has worse or better flaws than any other, it's all a matter of perception.


Perhaps not the worst, perception is subjective.

But I was always oddly fascinated by how popular this type is.

Once you scratch past the smoke and mirrors of most edgy descriptions, all you have is a melancholic and bitter misfit with a basic refuse of letting their most private and vulnerable depth show while stubbornly longing for some kind of ideal that will make them feel whole, real and loved the way they are. Being a 4 is pretty much knowing that you are broken but being unable to exactly locate the damage, often getting off on it because that's active part of your identity (and misery loves company).

At least this is my own experience.
It's basically myself and I love the way it makes me both stand out and hide but it's quite the insane type.



> I wish more descriptions explained the nuances rather than behavioral traits or DSM crap. And the whole misconception that 4s (and 5s) are the only alienated ones, or the only ones with any desire for authenticity or privacy.


Yes. A lot of types (especially 9s and 6s) often feel alienated for many varied reasons and those reasons are the key to someone's true type. Even a core 3 can feel alienated by their peers if the person behind the masks is fed up with the inability of anyone to see them past their act without a consequential need to destroy their empire.


> Actually, there's not (source) a lot of 9s. Not as many as I would expect, I guess.


Hmmm, interesting.
Not surprised at the staggering amount of INFP 4s and INTJ 5s but worth eye rolling.
I'm extremely amused at the lone ESFJ 8, I'd search for them if the combination didn't terrify me.


> 7 is a great match for xxNP types, as they lean towards scattered planning with the Ne. ISTP 7s are fairly common IMO, too. xxNJ 7s would be very different from what people expect of the type, but I don't think it's unlikely at all; they'd be more "focused" but still use the same mechanisms.


I've seen ExFP, IxFP, ExTP, IxTP and ExFJ 7s, it's a very versatile type.
I can't see it fitting any types other than the above (especially any strong TeSi type) but it's a possibility.



> Overall, as I implied earlier, I think 7 is a very misunderstood type. 3 gets the same treatment, really; according to people here, if you're not successful or looking to become the next CEO, you can't be a 3. And SOC, because everyone here hates small talk and people so obviously that means they can't be SOC (misanthropic SOCs exist, dudes).


True.

I know some amazing soc-doms and while this instinct is foreign to my own perspective and drives, it's got little to do with extroversion or small talk. A soc friend of mine said that her main focus is on _people_, not in a Fe-ish or conformist way, simply she loves being around people, observing and learning from them, offering them attention and energy. They're warm and concerned with the world at large rather than just with society itself.

Broad focus, they love involving many people in their fast paced life.
Also noteworthy that a lot of people claiming to hate small talk are the first to practice it all the time.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Hey, I thought this was an interesting conversation. I'd just like to contribute a few perspectives.

First, yeah, there are a lot of people mistyped no doubt. I was for many years (or more precisely, was unable to figure it out, partly due to this very phenomenon). I agree with a lot of people here--there aren't nearly enough of some types. Others, from what I see, have an unclear understanding of the enneagram. But unless mistyped people are spreading misinformation about their type (and I can think of only one prominent example), I am inclined to keep my mouth shut.

"Everyone's mistyped" and notions of "cool types" that everyone's trying to be, create a feeling of hostility in speaking one's truth. It discourages honest exploration and conversation, because suddenly no one wants to be a wannabe. 

Look, I'm a grown adult. I have a real life, with painful adult responsibilities and worries. I don't really care much about stupid typing politics on the internet. I've seen the real world in all its cruelty and glory.

Yet, these attitudes make me hesitate to speak out much. I've definitively decided I'm in the 478 tritype...and suddenly, that's "cool", and I'm likely to be negated every step of the way, no matter which side I comment on. I know all the ways each of these types has totally fucked up my life and made me miserable, the exact mechanisms by which it has happened, and the hole I've dug myself...and what, now I have to defend it every step of the way? 

Like, I've come to some important insights I'd love to share, and here it's like D-Day...the second you get off the boat, you're already in deep water! Then you're under fire all the way to shore. I just don't feel like taking the trouble.

I don't WANT to be a cool type. I don't want to have the centers of intelligence that I do. But nor do I wish to be seen as a poser every time I try to say something of import. So, for the third month running, I comment on the MBTI section, leaving the enneagram forums in the dust. 

I think ultimately, I _will_ share, because a lot of misconceptions have to change. But...all that background noise we're all commenting on...PerC isn't even the worst, I've been running into this stuff since I got online years ago.

You'd think I should be "above" it somehow--an adult. But I come here for fun and to share...and suddenly all this mistype stuff makes it...not all that fun. It also makes it really hard to type because I looked online for information, and I kept seeing this stuff--"You did X, so you're not a real type Y. You're a poser!" Thank God I got some real books and spoke to actual professionals...but many can't afford that stuff. 

Also a couple of interesting things I want to comment on.



Paradigm said:


> 4 is obvious, it appeals to the teenage crowd which is half of PerC.


Yeah, I felt this way when I first learned about it in my adolescence. I dunno how most teenagers are, but if they had have of my loneliness, depression, alienation, and refusal to alter Self, I think it is certainly justified. I just can't imagine it appealing to anyone...but more below



Hotaru said:


> In a way, I feel like a perennial angsty teenager myself but I definitely can see your point.
> Main issue with type 4 is that most descriptions are completely off base and overly glorified, as if this was the ultimate artistic type with charming quirks and endearing mysterious vibes.
> 
> In all truth, 4s are a depressing, self-loathing, closed off, moody, entitled, jealous, envious, broody and pretentious lot but no one really wants to touch upon the negatives of a type. No wonder the least 'popular' are the ones with the worst flaws.


I thought your words were funny. I don't see how 4 descriptions are over-glorified or appealing in any way...back in the day, I took one look and wanted to puke. Absolutely didn't want to be a 4...of course, this was mostly because of how much I relate. To the second paragraph, that is. I would have been insulted if anyone had tried to type me as a 4 if I'd been online 10 years ago. Thankfully, I grew up.

But um, yeah. Strongly agree.



aerotropic said:


> I've found that most people identify with whichever type feeds their ego the most. Type Six isn't generally seen as a desirable type, but a Four might identify as a Six if they don't want to perceive themselves as dramatic, self-absorbed, etc. It all depends on how much self-awareness they have, which has no direction relation to type.


Here I just wanna say, be careful. Many people on here are making an honest effort, and not everyone's a glory hound for the Ultimate Label. There's also such a thing as the "ego ideal"--the way our type's superego tells us we "should" be. If someone sees their ego ideal in one of the types, I feel it is possible to be correctly typed and still want to be that type. 

No doubt there are those who wish to reaffirm some self-image of success, intelligence, strength, whatever who mistype for those reasons. I've even seen 4s do it, so no type is immune. BUT--"most" people is quite a net to cast.



Anyway, all my grouchy thoughts. I guess I don't need to say "You're welcome to tell me why I'm mistyped", because A) someone will anyway, and B) I put in my request before. But, it looks like I just did say it.


----------



## Convex

I know it isn't the most accurate way, but it would be helpful if someone could see what types I should explore, by possibly looking at my recent posts/threads? I don't trust the answers given by useless online tests.

Thank you.


----------



## Paradigm

RinnayDelRey said:


> I totally agree with this, I think there are a lot of introverted 7's around here actually. I'm thinking I could be one myself, but then again, ENFPs can be really introverted...so...meh.


IMO, any extrovert can be "introverted," depending on what you mean by it. Introspection isn't limited to introversion. Being outgoing isn't a requirement for extroversion, if you ascribe to Jung's more abstract meaning of the -verts (which I do). It's just a matter of preference in regards to the direction of one's own energy.



Kipposhi said:


> "Everyone's mistyped" and notions of "cool types" that everyone's trying to be, create a feeling of hostility in speaking one's truth. It discourages honest exploration and conversation, because suddenly no one wants to be a wannabe.
> [...]
> You'd think I should be "above" it somehow--an adult. But I come here for fun and to share...and suddenly all this mistype stuff makes it...not all that fun. It also makes it really hard to type because I looked online for information, and I kept seeing this stuff--"You did X, so you're not a real type Y. You're a poser!" Thank God I got some real books and spoke to actual professionals...but many can't afford that stuff.


I do get your point and I appreciate it. Thanks 

For me, the problem is more the, um, people who perpetualize stereotypes. The people (such as yourself) who show interest in learning, in the specifics, are refreshing and awesome but not as numerable. But there's an overwhelming number of the former group, because it's easier. Humans are biased towards cognitive laziness*, and it shows in how many people will say stuff like "All nurses are 2s" or "All introverted bookworms are 5." It's pervasive.

We're not railing against the users who are trying to learn. We're railing against the users who think they learned enough.

*Note: I want to add that while I don't agree with Naranjo's school and am tempted to lump the subtypes into "cognitive ease," I am also fighting against my temptation to do so because it's simply a different interpretation and not a bias.



> Yeah, I felt this way when I first learned about it in my adolescence. I dunno how most teenagers are, but if they had have of my loneliness, depression, alienation, and refusal to alter Self, I think it is certainly justified. I just can't imagine it appealing to anyone


I'm a 6w7. I've also been _extremely outcasted_ from society, especially growing up. I actually have depression and C-PTSD from the amount of social neglect and discrimination I suffered as a child and adolescent (in public school). I had no friends, no allies, and no hope of finding respite from the constant verbal bullying. I spent lunches and classes and all my free time alone, away from people, in the computer lab or library, just to have some semblance of peace.

I never even considered changing my Self, either. Maybe it was because they were rejecting me for how I looked (I'm a cripple, straight up) -- but this wasn't a conscious decision or realization. It was just how I reacted. I never had any "role models," either; I remember complaining to a teacher that I couldn't do a stupid assignment on who I looked up to because I looked up to no one. I still don't, really, outside of family members - which is more appreciation than idolization.

My point is, alienation or loneliness or whatever else is not just a 4/5 thing. It's not _anything_, really, except luck of the draw. It's more based on location, family, peers, wealth, time period, current events... And yeah, not saying at all that you can't influence it, because you can, but I'm not sure how much is you and how much is everything else.


----------



## galactic collision

I remember reading a post where someone said, "There are no firefighters who are not Sixes" and even as a relative newbie to enneagram I was taken aback by this statement. How could that be possible?

Plain and simple: it's not. Enneagram is about the _cause_, not the effect. You already know _what_ you do - enneagram is there to help you understand _why_ you do it. 

I would also argue (in true live-and-let-live form) that only you should be concerned with what your type is, and that if you're mistyped, it doesn't really matter... I _would_ argue that, but the fact of the matter is that if you are mistyped on this forum, you're likely to talk about your own experiences as generalizations about what you think your type is, which could lead others to mistype. I say this from personal experience.

I'm also not in the position to call someone out for being mistyped, though, unless they ask. There are other ways to nudge someone in the right direction or question why they said something. "I don't really identify with that," or "That sounds like a generalization," or even just, "Why do you say that?"

I didn't really have anything to say, I was just really interested in this conversation and wanted to keep it going.


----------



## Alette

Paradigm said:


> Yes, I am. I think introverted 7s are very possible, and not just SOC-last ones. The problem stems from _very_ poor descriptions. 7s aren't all sociable party-goers who can't commit. They're just people who rely on distraction and activity to cope, neither of which actually rely on putting your energy outward. "Activity" can be anything you want, from extreme sports to knitting.
> 
> So the basic 7 traits -- optimism, distraction coping mechanisms, gluttony, etc -- are not impossible for an introvert.
> 
> It seems probable that people mistake 5's avarice for 7's gluttony, but just dismiss 7 because they're not outgoing.
> 
> 
> Edited "7s are all" to "7s aren't all" hours later because typos suck.


Would you think an introverted 7 would seem more social then the introverts of other enneagrams?


----------



## galactic collision

Lady Lunar said:


> Would you think an introverted 7 would seem more social then the introverts of other enneagrams?


I'm not sure exactly how to answer this, because I would think probably yes, they would seem more outgoing than other introverts... but then again, I did just go on a short rant about how enneagram is about your motivation, not behavior, so maybe I should put a sock in it


----------



## Alette

justforthespark said:


> I'm not sure exactly how to answer this, because I would think probably yes, they would seem more outgoing than other introverts... but then again, I did just go on a short rant about how enneagram is about your motivation, not behavior, so maybe I should put a sock in it


That's why I asked the question because motivation and behavior could kind of work together.


----------



## Remcy

Lady Lunar said:


> Would you think an introverted 7 would seem more social then the introverts of other enneagrams?


Introverted 7s would appear more extroverted because they deal with their inner fear by escaping into the world outside.


----------



## Paradigm

Lady Lunar said:


> Would you think an introverted 7 would seem more social then the introverts of other enneagrams?


More social? No. As I said, I don't see 7 as an "outgoing" type. And whether or not anyone has social skills is outside Enneagram influence.

But they would probably more personable. That is, well liked, or well received. But I'm mostly saying that because people like positivity, and 7s are... definitely positive.

Not even necessarily more physically active. One thing that comes to mind, excessive or impulsive shopping: that's certainly not a physical exercise, especially if you do it online. Another thing a few 7-heavy friends do is spend tons of time painting figurines while alone. I consider my w7 pretty heavy and I distract _very often_ from my pain and fear via video games. It's all an escape, really.


----------



## galactic collision

Also, 7s are really self-indulgent and egotistical, so I can imagine that an introverted 7 might spend a lot of time journaling or writing poetry or stories about the drama of their own life. :tongue:


----------



## Paradigm

justforthespark said:


> Also, 7s are really self-indulgent and egotistical, so I can imagine that an introverted 7 might spend a lot of time journaling or writing poetry or stories about the drama of their own life. :tongue:


Haha yes, true! My primary escape in high school was writing fictional stories. I swear it was one of my lifelines; I needed to create those stories to cope. It was such an escape mechanism, but it was primarily solo.

Which reminds me, 7s actually have a range of emotions xD For some reason people think 7s are all happy all the time. Nah man, they can be serious. My stories were quite emotional; while I realize it was teenage angst and stuff, I had some compliments on the emotional depth. Quite a reflection on the emotions I was experiencing, without having to say I was the one experiencing them.


----------



## aerotropic

Kipposhi said:


> Here I just wanna say, be careful. Many people on here are making an honest effort, and not everyone's a glory hound for the Ultimate Label. There's also such a thing as the "ego ideal"--the way our type's superego tells us we "should" be. If someone sees their ego ideal in one of the types, I feel it is possible to be correctly typed and still want to be that type.
> 
> No doubt there are those who wish to reaffirm some self-image of success, intelligence, strength, whatever who mistype for those reasons. I've even seen 4s do it, so no type is immune. BUT--"most" people is quite a net to cast.


I hear what you're saying. Please pretend I said "many" people instead of "most" people, because I agree that "most" is an overgeneralization.


----------



## galactic collision

Paradigm said:


> Haha yes, true! My primary escape in high school was writing fictional stories. I swear it was one of my lifelines; I needed to create those stories to cope. It was such an escape mechanism, but it was primarily solo.
> 
> Which reminds me, 7s actually have a range of emotions xD For some reason people think 7s are all happy all the time. Nah man, they can be serious. My stories were quite emotional; while I realize it was teenage angst and stuff, I had some compliments on the emotional depth. Quite a reflection on the emotions I was experiencing, without having to say I was the one experiencing them.


I wrote stories in high school to cope too!! Some of them were very emotional... Most were steamy romances, though. I wrote a lot of erotica when I was in high school. :tongue:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> Haha yes, true! My primary escape in high school was writing fictional stories. I swear it was one of my lifelines; I needed to create those stories to cope. It was such an escape mechanism, but it was primarily solo.


Heh, reminds me for years I tried writing as a means of escaping or whatever... but then I quickly gave up because my writing was never to my satisfaction. Damn 7-wing failing me. :crying:


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> My point is, alienation or loneliness or whatever else is not just a 4/5 thing. It's not _anything_, really, except luck of the draw. It's more based on location, family, peers, wealth, time period, current events... And yeah, not saying at all that you can't influence it, because you can, but I'm not sure how much is you and how much is everything else.


I agree with this. I am also sick of stereotypes that claim 4's can't be confident or *gasp* HAPPY. 4s can and do embody a variety of moods unless they are suffering from depression, just like any other type.


----------



## 0+n*1

Hotaru said:


> Same for 4 being everyone's standard heart type. There's many four fixed people but it's quite absurd how terrified most PerCers are of typing themselves as 2s or 3s (which makes sense from an image point of view for both types, they don't want to label themselves as anything unpopular so they take the camouflage route)


I haven't read your whole post, but I am not so sure they do it to not be unpopular. Generally, I think people shy away from 2 and 3 because they are more associated with superficiality, being too other-focused and faking it (even if false image is a heart triad thing, including 4s) and let's not forget the buzzwords 2s and 3s are attached to like sucess (and the cheesiness of a pictures like these Google Success). I really cannot understand how a 2 or 3 wouldn't value honesty, genuineness, depth, independence and individuality, if those are very valuable traits (and also very likeable). I have self-typed as 4-fixed but something was off, now that I self-type as 3-fixed, things make more sense (I cannot explain why though). I don't think being popular or not has something to do. In my case is all about being worthy (and also avoiding shame).


----------



## fair phantom

Hotaru said:


> Any non-sexual type gets a lot of flack, in my opinion.
> P6 and Soc 4 are especially bad in that regard, social subtypes in general too.
> 
> I didn't mean that 5 isn't over-typed because I see 5s and 4s around every corner and most of them are completely relying on stereotypes. I don't really care about calling out others, both because I follow a "live and let live" approach and because I'm in no way infallible or an expert, but it's undeniable. Yet type 5 seems to fly past the radar a lot more than 4 or 8, probably because of its nature.
> 
> In a way, I feel like a perennial angsty teenager myself but I definitely can see your point.
> Main issue with type 4 is that most descriptions are completely off base and overly glorified, as if this was the ultimate artistic type with charming quirks and endearing mysterious vibes.
> 
> In all truth, 4s are a depressing, self-loathing, closed off, moody, entitled, jealous, envious, broody and pretentious lot but no one really wants to touch upon the negatives of a type. No wonder the least 'popular' are the ones with the worst flaws.
> 
> 
> There's a lot of 9s around but I think there's way more 1s, 2s and 3s than expected. Agreed on that.
> 7 is actually a good match for types like INFP and INTP if you think about it.
> 
> Escaping from reality? Check.
> Extreme individualism? Check.
> Idealistic, curious, seeking stimulation and ideas? Check
> Constantly escaping boredom? Check
> Seeing themselves as more negative than they are? Check
> Always trying to motivate themselves into keeping on going? Check
> Honest, loyal, understanding and genuine? Check
> Obsessive about their passions, bustling with ideas? Check
> Self centered and entitled? Check
> Feeling a lingering sense of anxiety that they fight? Check
> 
> It's a terrific match, especially for INFPs.
> I see a lot of INFP sx 4s as if that was the norm and half of them are just so... bouncy. People oriented.
> Not that a sexual 4 cannot be but there's so much positivity and need for approval that it makes me wonder.
> 
> Of course I believe that no stranger can truly type a person since it's all about their hidden insides.
> But it's also easy to see through pretenses after a while.


Aaaaand now I'm wondering if I'm a 7. ^^;;;


----------



## cinnabun

Living dead said:


> I can relate to it,in a way,I definitely agree it's not very productive to pretend everything's ok and you should relax when obviously your own emotions are telling you that you shouldn't.


K, you're definitely not a 7 xD.


----------



## Darkbloom

RinnayDelRey said:


> K, you're definitely not a 7 xD.


That's what I keep telling people! XD

Seriously,some see me as 7 fixer some even as 7 core and I'm like no way,as head fix _maybe_,but nothing more than that.


----------



## cinnabun

Living dead said:


> That's what I keep telling people! XD
> 
> Seriously,some see me as 7 fixer some even as 7 core and I'm like no way,as head fix _maybe_,but nothing more than that.


You're an image type core for sure. My gut says 4w3.

Even as a head fix I still can't see 7, but I've not interacted with you that much.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Btw @alittlebear mentioned meditation a couple of times,how she doesn't like the idea of doing it when outside there's so many things to do as well as other people suffering.
> I can relate to it,in a way,I definitely agree it's not very productive to pretend everything's ok and you should relax when obviously your own emotions are telling you that you shouldn't.I always saw meditation as dumb and useless,mostly because people I know irl who meditate often are a bit like that,but when I think about it more deeply it still doesn't seem like something I'd recommend to anyone,except maybe people who are _extremely_ anxious all the time.Many people are too sensitive to everything,panicking whenever everything isn't perfectly calm and neutral/mildly happy,I know people who can't even stand being extremely happy and excited for too long,it's like feeling _anything_ drains their energy.Are they 9's or something? XD


I relate to this, but I don't think it means I'm not a 7. 

I'm okay - totally okay - with like having fun, going to Disney World, dropping my frog from the third floor of my dorm... but I hate meditation. It's... disconnecting from reality, almost, and I can't stand that. It makes me feel weird. 

Also, it just seems so unproductive. I relax, but like... One, I don't relax, meditation stresses me out, and two, it's just a waste of time? I hate doing things I don't deem productive in some ways, and taking care of my mentality isn't something I would personally deem productive


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I relate to this, but I don't think it means I'm not a 7.
> 
> I'm okay - totally okay - with like having fun, going to Disney World, dropping my frog from the third floor of my dorm... but I hate meditation. It's... disconnecting from reality, almost, and I can't stand that. It makes me feel weird.
> 
> Also, it just seems so unproductive. I relax, but like... One, I don't relax, meditation stresses me out, and two, it's just a waste of time? I hate doing things I don't deem productive in some ways, and taking care of my mentality isn't something I would personally deem productive


This again.










Actually, I've been meaning to ask you about your distaste for anything that strays too far from reality, specifically when it comes to books, movies, etc. What's so disconcerting about it?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> This again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I've been meaning to ask you about your distaste for anything that strays too far from reality, specifically when it comes to books, movies, etc. What's so disconcerting about it?


Not sure. It's always been with me though, as I mentioned even when I was little I was freaked out by Alice in Wonderland and Ronald Dahl. Might just be a compulsive thing, maybe an anxiety thing, I don't know 

Also, my counselor thinks my dislike of meditation could be anxiety-related, so like I guess I could just be an anxious 9 who doesn't like meditation? Hmm.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I relate to this, but I don't think it means I'm not a 7.
> 
> I'm okay - totally okay - with like having fun, going to Disney World, dropping my frog from the third floor of my dorm... but I hate meditation. It's... disconnecting from reality, almost, and I can't stand that. It makes me feel weird.
> 
> Also, it just seems so unproductive. I relax, but like... One, I don't relax, meditation stresses me out, and two, it's just a waste of time? I hate doing things I don't deem productive in some ways, and taking care of my mentality isn't something I would personally deem productive


One thing that makes me think I'm an image type is that I always automatically evaluated things according to how attractive they are and "what they make me".Like,dad wants me to go fishing with him and my reaction is "Fishing is for losers,what do I get from fishing,better sell that stupid equipment and buy me something to wear"(ofc,I don't say it like that) but then I think some more and am like "If I just go this one time...(you don't wanna know the rest lol)" 
And I guess meditation is somewhere around the same worth as fishing and therefore shouldn't be done unless you have a good reason lol
But unrelated to that too,"relaxing" things make me feel guilty because not only they are wasting my time and ruining me physically(for example eating what I like,not exercising as much as I want to,etc) but I also don't like the fact that I actually _care_ about being comfortable and simply don't have all the self-control I wish I had,because that degree of self-control can't be made,if part of you cares about something else then everything's automatically not good enough.

But I'm totally fine with fun of course,I'm actually extremely goofy and dropping frogs from third floor is something I'd definitely do haha


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Not sure. It's always been with me though, as I mentioned even when I was little I was freaked out by Alice in Wonderland and Ronald Dahl. Might just be a compulsive thing, maybe an anxiety thing, I don't know
> 
> Also, my counselor thinks my dislike of meditation could be anxiety-related, so like I guess I could just be an anxious 9 who doesn't like meditation? Hmm.


I find it surprising because it seems like a very grounded point of view. As for meditation, I can see how it can trigger or worsen anxiety because I can relate to that experience, but I wouldn't call meditation a way to delude yourself into thinking life is peachy. I also think it's important to take care of our mental states in whatever way we feel comfortable. I don't find it pointless at all.


----------



## Remcy

shinynotshiny said:


> Actually, I've been meaning to ask you about your distaste for anything that strays too far from reality, specifically when it comes to books, movies, etc. What's so disconcerting about it?


It's just Extroverted Sensing. She's an ENFJ after all, and Se likes things which are somehow realistic.


----------



## Immolate

Remcy said:


> It's just Extroverted Sensing. She's an ENFJ after all, and Se likes things which are somehow realistic.


But she even dislikes Harry Potter for its lack of realism, which I find surprising because it isn't _that _far removed from reality...?

Edit: Or is it that you don't find it relevant to our lives and therefore lacking in meaning, @alittlebear?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I find it surprising because it seems like a very grounded point of view. As for meditation, I can see how it can trigger or worsen anxiety because I can relate to that experience, but I wouldn't call meditation a way to delude yourself into thinking life is peachy. I also think it's important to take care of our mental states in whatever way we feel comfortable. I don't find it pointless at all.


Part of it sadly is I don't value my mental health? I mean I do, but even when I was a little girl and read those American Girl self-help books and they would say "take a bubble bath!" I would go, "what the heck? That doesn't help me at all. It'll be nice for a few minutes, but it would be a lot better to relax by reading a book since a book will help me intellectually and a bubble bath won't." 

Honestly I could try meditation again, it's been a while since I've attempted so my perspectives on it might be actually incorrect. 

Also yeah, it is funny I'm so "grounded" in that way, since I'm so not grounded in so many other ways. I enjoy things based in the principles of our world, that help is better understand this universe we do exist in. Most stories / fictional worlds do that, but the ones that are meant to stretch our understanding of reality (like Lewis Carol) really freak me out and annoy me.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Part of it sadly is I don't value my mental health? I mean I do, but even when I was a little girl and read those American Girl self-help books and they would say "take a bubble bath!" I would go, "what the heck? That doesn't help me at all. It'll be nice for a few minutes, but it would be a lot better to relax by reading a book since a book will help me intellectually and a bubble bath won't."
> 
> Honestly I could try meditation again, it's been a while since I've attempted so my perspectives on it might be actually incorrect.
> 
> Also yeah, it is funny I'm so "grounded" in that way, since I'm so not grounded in so many other ways. I enjoy things based in the principles of our world, that help is better understand this universe we do exist in. Most stories / fictional worlds do that, but the ones that are meant to stretch our understanding of reality (like Lewis Carol) really freak me out and annoy me.


Well, taking a bubble bath to ease stress is absurd for anyone suffering from anxiety. I mean an actual focus on mental health, not resorting to pop psychology to relax or feel good about yourself. You mentioned a counselor. I consider that a way of taking care of your mental health.

I'm most attracted to stories that stretch our understanding of reality, and I find that even "weird" stories like Alice in Wonderland can say something about who we are as a person or a society. Is there a particular reason they freak you out???


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> But she even dislikes Harry Potter for its lack of realism, which I find surprising because it isn't _that _far removed from reality...?
> 
> Edit: Or is it that you don't find it relevant to our lives and therefore lacking in meaning, @alittlebear?


Did I say that? Hmm... With _Harry Potter_ I think it's more that it isn't a meaningful world, like it's just an appendage to our world that's just... there. As far as I know, it isn't meant to represent anything. Like LOTR is a morally based world that is somewhat meant as an accumulation of European myths, _Watership Down_ I think used animals to highlight certain good and bad aspects of human society (the same goes for _Warriors_)... I could go on, but _Harry Potter_ doesn't seem meaningful to me in that way. It's just. Oh look there's this world but there's also a Wizarding World. 

Also the concept of it makes me kind of sad. There are some people who are born more special than others. I mean that happens a lot, it happens in _Percy Jackson_ as well, and _Twilight_, but when humans are divided up into Exclusively This or Exclusively That it makes me itch. We're all humans, I like it when we all stay on the same level :/ _Harry Potter_ tried to express the equality of Muggles and humans, but I think they did a poor job of it. 

You might be referring to my dislike of Rowling's writing style? It just seemed so lofty to me, very much like Ronald Dahl. I don't want to read a whimsical, removed look at what happens at Hogwarts (like I feel I get from the first few books). I want to be _there_. By the fifth book this style grows into maturity and I applaud it, but in the first few books it feels slangy to me, too up-in-the-air and simply whimsical for me. 

And also in general it's like the HP world is too realistic, I mean it's fun but it's also like "okay, so this is the very late 20th century world with magic"


----------



## Chesire Tower

Remcy said:


> It's just Extroverted Sensing. She's an ENFJ after all, and Se likes things which are somehow realistic.


I dunno about that; I'm an INFJ and I love Alice in Wonderland and Roald Dahl but then I have Se inferior.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Did I say that? Hmm... With _Harry Potter_ I think it's more that it isn't a meaningful world, like it's just an appendage to our world that's just... there. As far as I know, it isn't meant to represent anything. Like LOTR is a morally based world that is somewhat meant as an accumulation of European myths, _Watership Down_ I think used animals to highlight certain good and bad aspects of human society (the same goes for _Warriors_)... I could go on, but _Harry Potter_ doesn't seem meaningful to me in that way. It's just. Oh look there's this world but there's also a Wizarding World.
> 
> Also the concept of it makes me kind of sad. There are some people who are born more special than others. I mean that happens a lot, it happens in _Percy Jackson_ as well, and _Twilight_, but when humans are divided up into Exclusively This or Exclusively That it makes me itch. We're all humans, I like it when we all stay on the same level :/ _Harry Potter_ tried to express the equality of Muggles and humans, but I think they did a poor job of it.
> 
> You might be referring to my dislike of Rowling's writing style? It just seemed so lofty to me, very much like Ronald Dahl. I don't want to read a whimsical, removed look at what happens at Hogwarts (like I feel I get from the first few books). I want to be _there_. By the fifth book this style grows into maturity and I applaud it, but in the first few books it feels slangy to me, too up-in-the-air and simply whimsical for me.
> 
> And also in general it's like the HP world is too realistic, I mean it's fun but it's also like "okay, so this is the very late 20th century world with magic"


I think Harry Potter had a lot to say about society, culture, tradition, alienation, and so on. I remember your point about muggles and how you felt Rowling didn't write enough equality into her story. That doesn't bother me because I never considered that one of her main points. Here's this kid who's always felt different from everyone else, who barely has friends, who doesn't have a loving family. Then he discovers he isn't so strange or abnormal after all, there's a reason he's the way he is, a good reason, and he's finally able to find a safe space to call home. I didn't see it as putting muggles down. I saw it as Harry finding his place in the world.


----------



## Remcy

Chesire Tower said:


> I dunno about that; I'm an INFJ and I love Alice in Wonderland and Roald Dahl but then I have Se inferior.


I can "translate" or ignore most of the things that seem over the top in terms of realism as an INFJ, but it still bothers me a little (although it didn't when I was younger).

Wonder if instinctual variant has something to do with it as well? I'm sp-first, and I certainly like things that are feasible IRL as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Chesire Tower said:


> I dunno about that; I'm an INFJ and I love Alice in Wonderland and Roald Dahl but then I have Se inferior.


I think on my Socionics thread they said that my low Ti might have something to do with it.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I think on my Socionics thread they said that my low Ti might have something to do with it.


What does Ti have to do with it?


----------



## Immolate

Living dead said:


> What does Ti have to do with it?


I am also curious.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I think Harry Potter had a lot to say about society, culture, tradition, alienation, and so on. I remember your point about muggles and how you felt Rowling didn't write enough equality into her story. That doesn't bother me because I never considered that one of her main points. Here's this kid who's always felt different from everyone else, who barely has friends, who doesn't have a loving family. Then he discovers he isn't so strange or abnormal after all, there's a reason he's the way he is, a good reason, and he's finally able to find a safe space to call home. I didn't see it as putting muggles down. I saw it as Harry finding his place in the world.


Of course this is a problem with a lot of books - especially Warriors - but... Like, this is probably the American in me, but I was actually kind of bothered by how "special" Harry was. He was saved from his terrible circumstance because he was the subject of a prophecy, because he was the chosen one... but what about all those kids who don't have that? Who don't have a Wizarding World to fly to? It almost seemed like dues ex machine (forgive my misspelling), like "don't worry mistreated kids someday you'll be able to go to Wizarding World and everything will get better!" Of course that's not what kids think, but... I honestly disliked how Harry was the center of attention, how he and his friends were the core of the school... I mean, there was inequality in the storyline even at Hogwarts, beyond how they treated Muggles. 

I also agree that HP has some valuable themes - that's undeniable - but to me it was still thrown off because the world didn't quite interest me. I mean it did... but not as much as it did some people, I'm afraid. 

I do want to point out that I did like Harry Potter. I just unfortunately didn't feel that absolute, powerful love of it that I saw so many of my classmates feeling. I'm not exactly a Potterhead, but I enjoy the story and still love quizzing people about their favorite character and book and House and stuff.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Of course this is a problem with a lot of books - especially Warriors - but... Like, this is probably the American in me, but I was actually kind of bothered by how "special" Harry was. He was saved from his terrible circumstance because he was the subject of a prophecy, because he was the chosen one... but what about all those kids who don't have that? Who don't have a Wizarding World to fly to? It almost seemed like dues ex machine (forgive my misspelling), like "don't worry mistreated kids someday you'll be able to go to Wizarding World and everything will get better!" Of course that's not what kids think, but... I honestly disliked how Harry was the center of attention, how he and his friends were the core of the school... I mean, there was inequality in the storyline even at Hogwarts, beyond how they treated Muggles.
> 
> I also agree that HP has some valuable themes - that's undeniable - but to me it was still thrown off because the world didn't quite interest me. I mean it did... but not as much as it did some people, I'm afraid.
> 
> I do want to point out that I did like Harry Potter. I just unfortunately didn't feel that absolute, powerful love of it that I saw so many of my classmates feeling. I'm not exactly a Potterhead, but I enjoy the story and still love quizzing people about their favorite character and book and House and stuff.


The American in you...? I'd like to understand what you mean by this.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> What does Ti have to do with it?


I think because like I was bothered by there not being a logical order to things that I could discern. In Alice in Wonderland, everything is kind of random (or so I thought). There's like an Evil Witch, but a good witch, and everything is upside down and backwards but I couldn't figure out why everything was upside down and backwards... Same thing with all the Oz stuff, like there was just a bunch of random stuff, a Good Witch and a Wicked Witch and a yellow brick road and a wizard, but why is there a wizard and why is there a yellow brick road and why do the shoes help her go home and...? There was just so much that was unexplainable, and I couldn't stand it. It made my stomach turn just to realize that there was so much in this world that didn't make sense to me. 

I think someone explained (it was @CourtneyJD actually first attributed this to low order Ti) as, like, higher Ti would just get it and operate within the world, but for me it was harder because I have Ti but primitive Ti, you know. 

I mean I actually love, say, Wicked the musical and _Wicked_ the book. It sort of explains Oz, and I enjoy that. The Disney Oz movie was also okay, because it tried to do much the same thing (it wasn't as well developed as Oz in Wicked, but it still tried which was nice). But the original movie still creeps me out, because in the world of that movie alone... Very little is explained. It's just random to me, there everything is, you've just got to accept it. Freaks me out. 

I've gotten better about it now - I like Dr. Seuss based movies, and like I quite enjoyed the Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland movie, and some of my favorite Shakespeare plays are the ones where the universe is topsy Truvy - but there's still an uneasiness in me when things get too large scale and removed from realism.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> The American in you...? I'd like to understand what you mean by this.


I've been watching Downton Abbey and whenever anyone has a sentiment that stems from "everyone should be equal" the older English bred characters go "oh, don't go American on me!"


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I've been watching Downton Abbey and whenever anyone has a sentiment that stems from "everyone should be equal" the older English bred characters go "oh, don't go American on me!"


Hmm, interesting!

In regards to Harry Potter or stories with similar (and more serious) themes, I think it can be a problem when people jump in and criticize the story for not presenting all struggles equally. The fact that Harry Potter focuses on one group's struggle doesn't mean it denigrates another. It just chooses to focus on that one group, and perhaps some stories do this because a certain group has been neglected in the past. It's like when a "niche" show comes on air and people criticize it for only focusing on gay couples or latino issues. Sometimes asking for equal representation takes the focus away from the group that has little representation to begin with. I didn't think the Harry Potter series put down muggles as a group, and Harry wasn't the only character with a tragic past (Neville, Luna). I suppose it comes down to interpretation and what the series said to us. As a side note, I do think there were problems with the series, like Snape and slytherins in general.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Remcy said:


> Wonder if instinctual variant has something to do with it as well? I'm sp-first, and I certainly like things that are feasible IRL as well.


I'm Sp myself, and I tend to prefer fantastic stories (being a Ne-type probably helps). However, I could see enneatype playing into it too.

(Although while I like such stories, I do think @alittlebear's issues with it are pretty fair.)


----------



## Chesire Tower

Remcy said:


> I can "translate" or ignore most of the things that seem over the top in terms of realism as an INFJ, but it still bothers me a little (although it didn't when I was younger).
> 
> Wonder if instinctual variant has something to do with it as well? I'm sp-first, and I certainly like things that are feasible IRL as well.


I don't know since the one thing I'm most confused about is my instincts; so I'll get back to you on that. XD




alittlebear said:


> I think on my Socionics thread they said that my low Ti might have something to do with it.


Well, I dunno about that but I have very high Ti, if that has any relevancy or not. XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Hmm, interesting!
> 
> In regards to Harry Potter or stories with similar (and more serious) themes, I think it can be a problem when people jump in and criticize the story for not presenting all struggles equally. The fact that Harry Potter focuses on one group's struggle doesn't mean it denigrates another. It just chooses to focus on that one group, and perhaps some stories do this because a certain group has been neglected in the past. It's like when a "niche" show comes on air and people criticize it for only focusing on gay couples or latino issues. Sometimes asking for equal representation takes the focus away from the group that has little representation to begin with. I didn't think the Harry Potter series put down muggles as a group, and Harry wasn't the only character with a tragic past (Neville, Luna). I suppose it comes down to interpretation and what the series said to us. As a side note, I do think there were problems with the series, like Snape and slytherins in general.


I mean... I agree with you, like you can't expect any story to talk about every single social justice issue out there. I'm not on board with those people who criticize Rowling for not making Dumbledore more openly gay, and I'm understanding as to why she didn't include too many ethnically diverse characters. (Cho Chang is a little bit too stereotypical, but... That aside.) I think it's different with my dislike of the Muggle situation though. Muggles aren't a real social issue - they're... Muggles, only relevant to the world of Harry Pitter - but that's what bothered me. In the world of Harry Potter, Muggles are inferior. It's never addressed. Wizards are just... superior to Muggles, Muggles are lower, mundane, not gifted...

I say it's not addressed, but it is addressed. The custodian dude being a Squib. Petunia writing to Dumbledore, begging to be accepted into the school, and Lily's defense of her sister when Snape said otherwise about her sister's being stupid for being a Muggle. The whole thing with Dumbledore and his - uh, I was going to say something inappropriate, but - his evil friend lover guy deciding it was best to enslave Muggles or whatever. Rowling definitely made attempts to show that Muggles were no worse than anyone, but I think that a lot within the Wizard World defies her attempts...

And it's like... In Shakespeare, tragedies happen, but the thing is like there's a character who goes out to set the world right, and... It is set right, the world is put back in order. By the time Hamlet died Fortinbras arrived to start a new, non-corrupted reign in Denmark. We assume the King of France or Edgar does the same in Lear's world. In Romeo and Juliet, their families out aside their quarrel at the end. Even in the comedies this happens, where the bad thing - or character - is dismissed and made small and happiness ensues. 

And when it doesn't, people make a fuss. In Twelfth Night, my professor got so hung up because Malvolio didn't get a happy ending. He didn't get justice, he didn't get anything. He was terribly abused, and even though he was annoying and he was a mock bad guy he didn't deserve to be taunted at the end. Twelfth Night is still a fantastic work, but those who study Shakespeare are still bothered because the world wasn't wrapped up, it's a comedy so everyone is supposed to get a happy ending only everyone did _not_ get a happy ending, one character was abused and the story still left very unsettled. 

That's how I feel about Muggles in Harry Potter. I think the story fit together very well, the whole series is a masterpiece and I don't think it should be changed in any way, but on a personal level I find it discomforting how the superiority the Wizarding World felt over the Muggles was never fully eradicated. It's a fussy thing honestly, and I still appreciate the books, but it's something that bothers me personally.

Edit: Also this is weird but I think it bothered me because... I grew up a Gifted student. And our Gifted teachers liked to liken us to the Wizards in a way, and like we could easily assume that, oh, if HP was real we would obviously be Wizards because we're special like them. And our mentality towards Regular Students in general was like how the Wizards saw the Muggles - oh they're sweet, of _course_ we're not better than them at all... but on the inside it was assumed that we were more gifted than them, more special, destined for greatness while they sadly weren't. 

It's sad and I'm probably exaggerating, but that's how it felt to me when I was little. 

And I _hated_ that. It wasn't because I was inherently more fair, but because I was "special" on both spectrums. I had to go to speech therapy with the ESE kids, and whole we weren't best buddies I did love them just as much as I loved my gifted classmates, and to me we were all equal. It was so difficult for me to bounce back and forth between worlds where in one world I was special because I was disabled and in another world I was special because I was gifted. 

And that's why I probably have an issue with the way Muggles are treated in HP. It's the same time of condescending superiority that I hated growing up, and it bothers me when people don't smash that assumption that some people are more exceptional than others. 

TL;dr honestly I hate the way Muggles are treated in HP for very personal reasons and I'm bad at explaining it exactly


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Chesire Tower said:


> I don't know since the one thing I'm most confused about is my instincts; so I'll get back to you on that. XD
> 
> Well, I dunno about that but I have very high Ti, if that has any relevancy or not. XD


Yeah, currently confused about my instincts as well. But with your higher Ti it could have been easier for you, because you would see the world and just get it naturally while for me, my inferior Ti is more childlike and immature, if I see something that isn't immediately logical (particularly as a child) I would shy away from it, that's sort of what I do. 

Also I think it's not fair (and I'm sure you all know this, but just making an obvious point here with my inferior Ti) to think that everyone's functions would react the same way to the same things. I'm sure there are ENFJs who love HP and count themselves as the biggest fans of it, who never questioned Alice in Wonderland as I did or felt bothered by the craziness of Ronald Dahl books. For me though, I think the low Se and Ti along with my anxiety issues as a child could have contributed to my eeky feeling with these things. 

Maybe it's my being a 9 too? I think I read something like 9s reflect and observe the world, they're in the middle, they take and give from the world, maybe it upset me because these worlds were not how I reflected and observed my own world. I'm not too sure though, just throwing that out there.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I mean... I agree with you, like you can't expect any story to talk about every single social justice issue out there. I'm not on board with those people who criticize Rowling for not making Dumbledore more openly gay, and I'm understanding as to why she didn't include too many ethnically diverse characters. (Cho Chang is a little bit too stereotypical, but... That aside.) I think it's different with my dislike of the Muggle situation though. Muggles aren't a real social issue - they're... Muggles, only relevant to the world of Harry Pitter - but that's what bothered me. In the world of Harry Potter, Muggles are inferior. It's never addressed. Wizards are just... superior to Muggles, Muggles are lower, mundane, not gifted...


I wouldn't say the wizarding world was presented as morally, socially, or intellectually superior. Ron didn't even understand how to use a phone, so it all comes down to what a person defines as superior and inferior. If anything, we saw how wizards and witches had a greater capacity for evil or corruption because of their magical abilities. One of the biggest themes was blood purity and how being half-blood or muggle-born doesn't devalue someone as a witch, wizard, or person.

I have a lot of feelings about Dumbledore, but that's a discussion for another day (or never).



alittlebear said:


> The whole thing with Dumbledore and his - uh, I was going to say something inappropriate, but - his evil friend lover guy deciding it was best to enslave Muggles or whatever.


...dare I ask...



alittlebear said:


> Rowling definitely made attempts to show that Muggles were no worse than anyone, but I think that a lot within the Wizard World defies her attempts...


But that's kind of the point about the wizarding world. You've got pure-blood families (and slytherins, for the most part) devaluing muggles and muggle ancestry, and then you've got the other side trying to combat this belief. I would say a lot of the wizarding world was ignorant about muggles, and that a shift in ideology or social structure had to occur to address that ignorance.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I wouldn't say the wizarding world was presented as morally, socially, or intellectually superior. Ron didn't even understand how to use a phone, so it all comes down to what a person defines as superior and inferior. If anything, we saw how wizards and witches had a greater capacity for evil or corruption because of their magical abilities. One of the biggest themes was blood purity and how being half-blood or muggle-born doesn't devalue someone as a witch, wizard, or person.
> 
> I have a lot of feelings about Dumbledore, but that's a discussion for another day (or never).
> 
> 
> 
> ...dare I ask...
> 
> 
> 
> But that's kind of the point about the wizarding world. You've got pure-blood families (and slytherins, for the most part) devaluing muggles and muggle ancestry, and then you've got the other side trying to combat this belief. I would say a lot of the wizarding world was ignorant about muggles, and that a shift in ideology or social structure had to occur to address that ignorance.


I added something to that post which might better explain why I personally have issue with this. And also, like part of this is my low Ti (not to totally blame it on that, but). I have illogical dislike of some things. 

And like, still I feel like... In the end, everything is better. The Trio is working to make the world a better place, to improve problems in the Wizarding World. But it's not directly addressed like other things are the mistreatment of Muggles. The idea is played with, certain parts stress the stupidity of Wizards where Muggles are way more with it, but an irrational part of me would have been more delighted if they had acknowledged (in story, not just words) how Muggles are just as brilliant and deserving and spectacular as Wizards. 

Really it's a silly hang-up, and it's just in the back of my mind when I read the series (as I said, I still enjoy it), but it's there for me nonetheless and definitely a critical issue I have with it. 

Also, as for my term... I know I keep referencing Shakespeare, but... Uh in _Troilus and Cressida_ which is somewhat a satire of the Trojan war tales (mostly _The Iliad_, but if you're familiar with the Trojan war and like especially the story of Achilles you might get this) Thersites (who is like the fool of the story, he makes witty remarks about everything) keeps calling Patroclus a bunch of somewhat derogatory terms regarding his relationship with Achilles and I was sorta gonna use either one of those terms or a modern version of those terms (that's way too much detailed information given that comment but that's what, haha)

Edit: oh and also, I agree with you about the handling of Slytherins. I know a lot of people have different criticisms of Snape, and I don't know how I feel about that, where I stand there, but I agree that the way Houses other than Gryffindor were handled were... poorly done, to some extent. (I like how Rowling said she liked Hufflepuff best though  )


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> Yeah, currently confused about my instincts as well. But with your higher Ti it could have been easier for you, because you would see the world and just get it naturally while for me, my inferior Ti is more childlike and immature, if I see something that isn't immediately logical (particularly as a child) I would shy away from it, that's sort of what I do.
> 
> Also I think it's not fair (and I'm sure you all know this, but just making an obvious point here with my inferior Ti) to think that everyone's functions would react the same way to the same things. I'm sure there are ENFJs who love HP and count themselves as the biggest fans of it, who never questioned Alice in Wonderland as I did or felt bothered by the craziness of Ronald Dahl books. For me though, I think the low Se and Ti along with my anxiety issues as a child could have contributed to my eeky feeling with these things.
> 
> Maybe it's my being a 9 too? I think I read something like 9s reflect and observe the world, they're in the middle, they take and give from the world, maybe it upset me because these worlds were not how I reflected and observed my own world. I'm not too sure though, just throwing that out there.


I don't get it naturally but I don't even think enough to try to really get it,it just _is_ and I read and I assume that in the end of the book it'll all make sense.
I don't know what that means.
Tbh I don't really like reading and it requires lots of energy so maybe my opinion doesn't count here lol

Anyway,what I wanted to say that one person I know who really hates fiction and random quirky things is an ISFJ 9w1,not sure about instincts,probably sp/so.She is actually smart and loves reading but lack of realism really bothers her.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> I don't get it naturally but I don't even think enough to try to really get it,it just _is_ and I read and I assume that in the end of the book it'll all make sense.
> I don't know what that means.
> Tbh I don't really like reading and it requires lots of energy so maybe my opinion doesn't count here lol
> 
> Anyway,what I wanted to say that one person I know who really hates fiction and random quirky things is an ISFJ 9w1,not sure about instincts,probably sp/so.She is actually smart and loves reading but lack of realism really bothers her.


Maybe it is a 9 thing? I know Angelcat (I don't want to notify her since I don't know if she likes to come to the Enneagram form too much) said that she loves crazy worlds and she thinks that's her Ne, but I think she has a low 9 fix.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Also, as for my term... I know I keep referencing Shakespeare, but... Uh in _Troilus and Cressida_ which is somewhat a satire of the Trojan war tales (mostly _The Iliad_, but if you're familiar with the Trojan war and like especially the story of Achilles you might get this) Thersites (who is like the fool of the story, he makes witty remarks about everything) keeps calling Patroclus a bunch of somewhat derogatory terms regarding his relationship with Achilles and I was sorta gonna use either one of those terms or a modern version of those terms (that's way too much detailed information given that comment but that's what, haha)














alittlebear said:


> Edit: oh and also, I agree with you about the handling of Slytherins. I know a lot of people have different criticisms of Snape, and I don't know how I feel about that, where I stand there, but I agree that the way Houses other than Gryffindor were handled were... poorly done, to some extent. *(I like how Rowling said she liked Hufflepuff best though  )*


She realized her mistake! The slytherin welcome letter was also interesting.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> Maybe it is a 9 thing? I know Angelcat (I don't want to notify her since I don't know if she likes to come to the Enneagram form too much) said that she loves crazy worlds and she thinks that's her Ne, but I think she has a low 9 fix.


It's definitely mix of many things imo,your anxiety probably doesn't help.

But I think even I had similar reactions to _some_ fantasy worlds when I was little,like in cartoons,I don't remember exactly but I know I found some things creepy even though there was nothing obviously scary going on so maybe that's it?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> She realized her mistake! The slytherin welcome letter was also interesting.


Here's an example of what I might have used to describe Gindelwald. Urban Dictionary: varlet 

But yeah, I like how she's noticed a lot of problems in the Wizarding World and has tried to makes amends for them.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> It's definitely mix of many things imo,your anxiety probably doesn't help.
> 
> But I think even I had similar reactions to _some_ fantasy worlds when I was little,like in cartoons,I don't remember exactly but I know I found some things creepy even though there was nothing obviously scary going on so maybe that's it?


If one of the cartoons you're referring to is Courage the Cowardly Dog honestly I think every child felt that fear


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> If one of the cartoons you're referring to is Courage the Cowardly Dog honestly I think every child felt that fear


Hahaha actiually it was one of them but I also felt like that about some bear,idk what the name was but there was something weird.But Courage is just awful,no idea why I insisted on watching it.I mean,I watched real horror movies as a child but none of them were as scary as that cartoon.Not knowing English probably didn't help haha(do they speak there,I don't remember?)


----------



## Chesire Tower

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, currently confused about my instincts as well. But with your higher Ti it could have been easier for you, because you would see the world and just get it naturally while for me, my inferior Ti is more childlike and immature, if I see something that isn't immediately logical (particularly as a child) I would shy away from it, that's sort of what I do.
> 
> Also I think it's not fair (and I'm sure you all know this, but just making an obvious point here with my inferior Ti) to think that everyone's functions would react the same way to the same things. I'm sure there are ENFJs who love HP and count themselves as the biggest fans of it, who never questioned Alice in Wonderland as I did or felt bothered by the craziness of Ronald Dahl books. For me though, I think the low Se and Ti along with my anxiety issues as a child could have contributed to my eeky feeling with these things.
> 
> Maybe it's my being a 9 too? I think I read something like 9s reflect and observe the world, they're in the middle, they take and give from the world, maybe it upset me because these worlds were not how I reflected and observed my own world. I'm not too sure though, just throwing that out there.


I have no idea if higher Ti has anything to do with it or not; I only mentioned it because you proposed it as possible reason. It could simply be about different tastes. I am a 5w4 and 5s tend - in general to like asking "what" if type questions. I also don't mind my fantasy to be as surreal or disturbing as possible; so I'm not a huge fan of Lord of the Rings' type of stories that much. I gravitate and prefer the topsy-turvy to things making sense.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Here's an example of what I might have used to describe Gindelwald. Urban Dictionary: varlet
> 
> But yeah, I like how she's noticed a lot of problems in the Wizarding World and has tried to makes amends for them.


I think it's a shame you would bring sexuality into it, and as far as I know, the relationship was one-sided. It was all Dumbledore.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Hahaha actiually it was one of them but I also felt like that about some bear,idk what the name was but there was something weird.But Courage is just awful,no idea why I insisted on watching it.I mean,I watched real horror movies as a child but none of them were as scary as that cartoon.Not knowing English probably didn't help haha(do they speak there,I don't remember?)


It's terrible in English, I can't imagine what it must have been like watching it without knowing what they were saying. 

I like some kids' shows, even now they're pretty cute, Clifford is always wonderful and some new Disney Junior programs are adorable, but I'll never be able to stand the little kids' shows on Cartoon Network or Nick. Too... I don't know. Too something for me.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Vajra said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_
> 
> I have never said that Social 7 was "anti narcissism". As for so called underdog causes (that word is so trite), 7s of any subtype can have a sensitivity to suffering. Social 7s are more socially oriented but they are not all social justice oriented. I have known a lot of social 7s, and they were no less narcissistic than other instinctual variants of 7. A couple of them are pretty wealthy, and while generous with their wealth, they are not anti 'greed'.


I disagree with the "not all Social 7s are social justice oriented" and "not anti-narcissism", but the rest I could see (Social 7s are narcissistic in an anti-narcissistic holier than thou sort of way. they are more convinced of their goodness than Sp 7, who is amused by being seen as the bad guy or Sexual 7 who cares less one way or the other). either way, apologies for misrepresenting you, but I'm sure you would agree that it's a ridiculous typing for me (Social-last 7 would be less ridiculous)


----------



## DomNapoleon

Vajra said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_
> 
> I have never said that Social 7 was "anti narcissism".
> 
> *I have known a lot of social 7s, and they were no less narcissistic than other instinctual variants of 7. *
> 
> You're acting like social 7s belong in a monastic order. *That's just narrow stereotyping*, that too based on the writings of one theorist, who hasn't published updated work in decades.


Exactly my point! The social 7s I know are somewhat fame and popularity oriented, with a big need to fit in and be the ''cool kids'' of the school. They are very stereotypical social instinct... but they are no less narcissistic than others 7 subtypes. In fact, one of them used to post pictures on her facebook about how fashionable she was and how superior she was too other girls. (she is wannabe Nicki Minaj, by the way :laughing


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I disagree with the "not all Social 7s are social justice oriented" and "not anti-narcissism", but the rest I could see (Social 7s are narcissistic in an anti-narcissistic holier than thou sort of way. they are more convinced of their goodness than Sp 7, who is amused by being seen as the bad guy or Sexual 7 who cares less one way or the other). either way, apologies for misrepresenting you, but I'm sure you would agree that it's a ridiculous typing for me XD



There is absolutely no single type+instinct combination that results in ALL people of said pairing being social justice oriented. That is completely fallacious nonsense. I have a social 7w8 cousin who really doesn't care much for social justice, though he is excellent at reading group dynamics and manipulating them. He is often seen as more 'bad' than good, and he doesn't give a fuck. He's so/sp as hell. That's just one example. And no, your tired trick of saying the person is mistyped isn't going to work. XD 

A narcissistic type is not going to be 'anti narcissism'. Narcissism is going to be the fixation, even if the expression may wary. Period. As for your type, you are pretty retarded where Soc intelligence is concerned. Your 5 typing is absurd. You're a 7w6 but a social last.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Mandraque said:


> Exactly my point! The social 7s I know are somewhat fame and popularity oriented, with a big need to fit in and be the ''cool kids'' of the school. They are very stereotypical social instinct... but they are no less narcissistic than others 7 subtypes. In fact, one of them used to post pictures on her facebook about how fashionable she was and how superior she was too other girls. (she is wannabe Nicki Minaj, by the way :laughing


I never denied Social 7s cared about being popular (in fact I'd say that's common), but you're being absurd if you think I'm "stereotypical social instinct" in any capacity. and no, I have never wanted to be cool, and I am afraid of fame if anything (having to manage a reputation......nah). my desire to be superior to people is motivated by *hatred* and *retribution*, not popularity. deep down, I am still that angry little boy shaking his fist at the sky after getting beat up. 

these things are not a case against 7, but they are sure as hell a case against 7w6.


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I never denied Social 7s cared about being popular (in fact I'd say that's common), but you're being absurd if you think I'm "stereotypical social instinct" in any capacity. and no, I have never wanted to be cool, and I am afraid of fame if anything (having to manage a reputation......nah). my desire to be superior to people is motivated by *hatred* and *retribution*, not popularity. deep down,* I am still that angry little boy shaking his fist at the sky after getting beat up.
> *
> these things are not a case against 7, but they are sure as hell a case against 7w6.


the underlined is clear 6 influence. 7w6 is such an obvious typing for you. you can deny it all you want.


----------



## galactic collision

@Swordsman of Mana

You know I'm a social 7 and I fit all the "tropes" of social 7, but to be fair, I'm also narcissistic as fuck. I'm still a 7. I think you depend too much on instincts to type people (and possibly yourself) - instincts are still secondary to core type. 

I also think your narcissism is more for show, fwiw. I don't know whether that points to or away from 7, but I think you act cockier than you truly are. It seems like more of a defense mechanism than a personality trait. Not saying you aren't narcissistic at all (I would never want to take that away from you) but you do tend to put on a show of it.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Vajra said:


> There is absolutely no single type+instinct combination that results in ALL people of said pairing being social justice oriented. That is completely fallacious nonsense. I have a social 7w8 cousin who really doesn't care much for social justice, though he is excellent at reading group dynamics and manipulating them. He is often seen as more 'bad' than good, and he doesn't give a fuck. He's so/sp as hell. That's just one example. And no, your tired trick of saying the person is mistyped isn't going to work. XD


you'd be correct that I was thinking that, but I wasn't even going to bother beating that dead horse (it's a horse skeleton at this point lol)



> A narcissistic type is not going to be 'anti narcissism'. Narcissism is going to be the fixation, even if the expression may wary. Period.


no, Social 7 is counter-narcissistic in the same manner of counter-phobic 6.



> As for your type, you are pretty retarded where Soc intelligence is concerned.


no argument there :laughing:



> Your 5 typing is absurd. You're a 7w6 but a social last.


I'm aware of your thoughts on the matter.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

justforthespark said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> You know I'm a social 7 and I fit all the "tropes" of social 7, but to be fair, I'm also narcissistic as fuck. I'm still a 7. I think you depend too much on instincts to type people (and possibly yourself) - instincts are still secondary to core type.


instincts and core type are like elements vs compounds. sometimes you can take hydrogen and oxygen to get water (ie, the combination of the two can look dissimilar to either core type or instinct). if anything though, I think it would be the instinct which is primary, because it is just that, an _instinct_ rather than an ego fixation (ie, centered in the amygdala rather than the mammalian brain or prefrontal cortex).



> I also think your narcissism is more for show, fwiw. I don't know whether that points to or away from 7, but I think you act cockier than you truly are. It seems like more of a defense mechanism than a personality trait. Not saying you aren't narcissistic at all (I would never want to take that away from you) but you do tend to put on a show of it.


you're not the first person to tell me this, but noted. I'm not extremely opposed to typing at 7, just not Social 7 (Social 8 and Social 2 are the only Social doms I remotely relate to)


----------



## DomNapoleon

Vajra said:


> As for your type, you are *pretty retarded where Soc intelligence is concerned.* Your 5 typing is absurd. You're a 7w6 but a social last.


rofl :laughing: I can't stop laughing. Ok, I have to admit that I had a wrong idea of him being social intelligence oriented (but that's because I have issues when it comes to express my opinions... and when I see someone expressing their opinions in such a confident way like @Swordsman of Mana does I think they are superior to mine) .

For example you are a Sp/Sx 7w8 and you have strong ideas and values concerning the social instinct, as I've noticed you tend to be very justice oriented (could be your 8 fix). And yet, surprisingly you are a social last 7. I think people sometimes tend to ''over compensate'' their last instinct.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> and I am afraid of fame if anything (having to manage a reputation......nah).


I don't actually think you're a social type myself, just saying I don't think this necessarily discounts So. I can feel like that, tbh.



Mandraque said:


> I think people sometimes tend to ''over compensate'' their last instinct.



So how do you imagine someone over compensating for sx last?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Mandraque said:


> rofl :laughing: I can't stop laughing. Ok, I have to admit that I had a wrong idea of him being social intelligence oriented (but that's because I have issues when it comes to express my opinions... and when I see someone expressing their opinions in such a confident way like @Swordsman of Mana does I think they are superior to mine) .
> 
> For example you are a Sp/Sx 7w8 and you have strong ideas and values concerning the social instinct, as I've noticed you tend to be very justice oriented (could be your 8 fix). And yet, surprisingly you are a social last 7. I think people sometimes tend to ''over compensate'' their last instinct.


glad we got that cleared up. I don't particularly relate to most of what I've read about 7s, but the main issue was _Social_ 7 specifically that I don't relate to. but yeah, the reason why my opinions come across as more confident than yours are
1) Fi resoluteness vs Fe tentative "will this hurt people's feelings?" and Ti "but maybe it's all relative..."
2) 1 fix second vs last
3) my ideas and beliefs were forged in the pits of severe childhood bullying and discrimination
4) I am more genuinely narcissistic than you (yes, I know this doesn't sound very 5)


----------



## DomNapoleon

Kink said:


> So how do you imagine someone over compensating for sx last?


I have two friends who are sx last and their way to over compensate the sx last is by music. Ironically, they are both SJ and have the same tritype and they are authentic music junkies. That's just one example.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Mandraque said:


> I have two friends who are sx last and their way to over compensate the sx last is by music. Ironically, they are both SJ and have the same tritype and they are authentic music junkies. That's just one example.


What purpose does that overcompensation serve?


----------



## DomNapoleon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> glad we got that cleared up. I don't particularly relate to most of what I've read about 7s, but the main issue was _Social_ 7 specifically that I don't relate to. but yeah, the reason why my opinions come across as more confident than yours are
> 1) Fi resoluteness vs Fe tentative "will this hurt people's feelings?" and Ti "but maybe it's all relative..."


Fe can be one of the most assertive functions.  They also have strong values like Fi, what differs is the way they choose their values. 





> 3) my ideas and beliefs were forged in the pits of severe childhood bullying and discrimination
> 4) I am more genuinely narcissistic than you (yes, I know this doesn't sound very 5)


See, this is one reason why I type as 5 right now. I was also bullied and that bullying made me castrate ''my voice'' and to be quiet and keep my ideas to myself, completely shutting down from the outside world. In your case, you acted like an ID type who resists to withdraw from the world, but rather have an active participation on it.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Vajra
btw, this has long been overdue, but as I said previously, it's not just Chestnut and Naranjo I'm pulling my views on Social 7 from. Maitri also makes the idealism and social justice bent of Social 7s extremely clear. perhaps there are a few outliers several standard deviations away from the mean, but with three sources (two according to you lol) and quite a bit of personal experience under my belt (hell, my own mother is a Social 7, and I have more experience arguing with Social 7s than alter boys have bottoming for priests). 



> Social Seven: Sacrifice
> Social Sevens are characterized by relinquishing their personal freedom and aspirations for social ideals. They have a profound sense of obligation toward others and feel that they must sacrifice themselves to fulfill what they see as their responsibilities. Their sacrifices are in the service of a future that they imagine and make plans to realize - a future that promises to give them the sense of belonging, social acceptance, and social standing that they lack. The passion of gluttony manifests here as a hunger for this sense of social ease and for all of the things that they believe will give it to them. Ichazo (per Lilly and Hart) uses the descriptor social limitations and describes this subtype as "predetermining his social activities," which highlights a different nuance of this subtype. It points the Social Seven's tendency to map and plan his social involvements to resolve his social insecurity.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Mandraque said:


> Fe can be one of the most assertive functions.  They also have strong values like Fi, what differs is the way they choose their values.


what also differs is the way they _maintain_ their values. generally speaking, Fi is a more gut center function and Fe a more heart center one. Fi stands it's ground in the face of no one agreeing with them while Fe, sooner or later, usually adapts to the current group.




> See, this is one reason why I type as 5 right now. I was also bullied and that bullying made me castrate ''my voice'' and to be quiet and keep my ideas to myself, completely shutting down from the outside world. In your case, you acted like an ID type who resists to withdraw from the world, but rather have an active participation on it.


you realize I'm going to use this against you if you try to type as 7 again right? :laughing:


----------



## DomNapoleon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you realize I'm going to use this against you if you try to type as 7 again right? :laughing:


That won't happen again. O I am aware now that all my 7-ish traits came from connection to 7, a really strong connection. Both to integration and disintegration.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Kink said:


> What purpose does that overcompensation serve?


Escaping reality, bringing a sense of aliveness... Plus I've met a guy who is sp/so and he is a total whore :laughing:


----------



## Psithurism

@Swordsman of Mana

I am curious to know what your explicit argument for being a type 5 is.


----------



## Paradigm

Mandraque said:


> See, this is one reason why I type as 5 right now. I was also bullied and that bullying made me castrate ''my voice'' and to be quiet and keep my ideas to myself, completely shutting down from the outside world. In your case, you acted like an ID type who resists to withdraw from the world, but rather have an active participation on it.


I hate this explanation for typing at 5. Like, so much. Irrationally much, honestly. It reeks too much of "I have depression so I must be 4" or "I was beaten as a child and now beat others so I must be 8."

6w7. Bullied. Insanely laconic and withdrawn and asocial. I disassociate during any and all social situations. _Am not 5._ Bullying can very much cause PTSD (or similar mental disorders), which causes these behaviors, and no mental illness should be typed.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Chesire Tower said:


> No, no you and @Living dead have misunderstood me. I never suggested that you were a 4 core, only a possible 4 fix. You definitely sound like a 9 core. I've seen some comments in your posts that may possibly indicate a 4 and/or 6 fix but I could be wrong about that. I know a 4 fixed 9 personally an I see some similar tendencies in your posts. but your strong concern with social justice in the Harry Potter novels and your identification with the underdog could also indicate possible 6 fix but I honestly don't have enough of a reading from your posts to yet, clearly identify fixes. Since you don't sound as detached as this friend and conflict doesn't seem to scare you, I think you might be a 9w8 over a 9w1 but I'm just like the other fixes, I'm just guessing here but I really do see very strongly in you, a 9 core; the rest are merely suggestions and food for thought for you to explore and see if it resonates. A 1 core with a 2 wing is also a possibility but your self-effacement and lack of assertiveness make me lean closest to 9.
> 
> I see 1w2 over 2w1 but 9w? as the most likely.


Thank you for your response!

I actually did know what you meant (sorry for not making that clear) but both @Living dead and I don't think 4 fits for my heart fix. I tagged you in my post about what matches me and 4, I agreed with some things but about half were opposite what I believe (unlike the 2 things, which I mostly completely agreed with). 

We've been investigating 1, 2, and 9 as my core type for an extended period of time on my typing thread, so I can understand where you would get 1w2 from. For a time I was convinced I was 1w2. But we sort of ditched that when considering all the things that aren't 1 about me, and also when Living Dead saw my typing video one of the things she said was "you don't look like a 1 (at all)" 

Not to be this way, but... It was mentioned in this thread yesterday night I believe that not all depressed people are 4s. I think that's one thing that makes me seem 4 right now (unfortunately -- of course 4s are so much more than this, but just in regards to why I seem 4) is my personal negativity and the sadness I sort of feel on the inside at the moment. (Not to be dramatic... I don't like talking about it and honestly I'm okay but sometimes I like randomly cry in the shower or in the middle of the day like I did today. I'm fine, but sometimes I guess I have emotions I have to get out and then move on with.) Usually I am not like this. I'm actually a generally positive and upbeat person, and my trauma / anxiety / slightly depressive problems are just kind of putting a downer on my emotional expression that really I'm not at all used to. 

We have considered a 6 fix, and I'm still considering it. We think that some of my typically 6 things are more anxiety-related though... But you didn't even mention that for 6 fix, did you? I'm interested you point to social justice as reasoning for 6, as @justforthespark is a 7w6 and she is also very passionate about things like social justice. 7w6 was actually considered for me because I am so much like her, ha. 

I'm also a bit interested that you suggest 9w8 over 9w1! I've got to say, that's a response I have never gotten. I think I may have poorly phrased what I meant about conflict. Conflict interests me, like in books and shows and movies and things, but in no way am I okay with it personally. I hate it when people don't get along, and I hate it when people don't get along with me. I absolutely cannot stand it. While I've grown to understand that world peace is impossible due to our fundamentally flawed and argumentative human nature, I was a huge advocate for world peace when I was a little tyke. I just wish people would stop haring each other and not getting along, like it just blows my mind how people can't just be respectful and kind to everyone :/ 

It is true I'm not detached though. I'm very not detached, ha. I collect everyone's needs, I feel the feelings of others very strongly in that Fe way and I very much and very frequently find my heart twisted up out of care for others and hatred of their suffering. This is one of the reasons why I have a hard time accepting 9 as my core. About everything makes perfect sense except how being a 9 would fit in with my being an Fe-dom and how it is that I can be a 9 but suffer from the opposite of Sloth. 

I apologize if I seem abrupt or rude. As I said earlier, and as I said genuinely earlier, I really appreciate a fresh look at my type that isn't just going off some basic stuff and assumptions about me. Your exploration of new types for me shows me that you're looking critically and thoughtfully at this. It's just that we've been in a lot of circles regarding my type already, so I have a few strong thoughts regarding certain types already. I am open to new thoughts and opinions, but I do get slightly harsh when investigating them because I'm seeking to understand where new thoughts are coming from so I can decide if they are truly correct or not for me. 

Again, thank you. (And I linked you to my typing thread and my 4 post if you are interested. Please don't feel like you have to help me further, but if you are interested/curious there is a lot of information out there regarding my Enneagram quest.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Yeah,I understood it but I still see 2 fix,it's just bad circumstances.9 with 4 fix would be...different.
> 
> How about 1w9?Someone suggested that before


I was sort of convinced of that as a fix (for like... two hours one time) because I thought, you know, everyone says 1 and 9 and also 2 so I can be a 2 core and 1w9 and that would solve everything, right?

Nope! I looked at the 1w9 description and went "nope!" I'll have to look at it again to see what it said exactly, but I remember I read it and went "no, this isn't me at all"


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Living dead ah now I am refreshed in what is not 1w9 about me 


firedell said:


> *Ones*
> *One With a 9 Wing*
> Ones with this wing can have an aura of 9-like calm although eruptions of temper are possible. Often have a detached quality and can be mistaken for Fives. Tendency to formulate and embrace principles that have little human content, but this is also their strength. When awakened, may be objective and balanced, cool and moderate in their evaluations. More entranced, might have perfectionistic expectations that are not humanly possible to meet. May hold social or political opinions that are supremely logical but ultimately heartless and draconian. The rules come first no matter what. Can be merciless or unwittingly cruel. Often a little colorless in their personal appearance. Many Ones with this wing are plain dressers, preferring functional clothing that is appropriate to context but not flashy. The emphasis on function may extend to their general lifestyle. Practicality is highly valued.
> 
> *Real-Life Ones With a 9 Wing*: The culture of the Amish, David Brower, Angela Davis, Michael Dukakis, Harrison Ford, Ralph Nader, John Cardinal O'Connor, Colin Powell, the culture of the Puritans, Yitzhak Rabin, Vanessa Redgrave, Bernard Shaw.
> 
> *Movie Ones With a 9 Wing*: Henry Fonda, On Golden Pond; Harrison Ford, The Mosquito Coast; Alec Guinness, The Bridge On The River Kwai; Katharine Hepburn, Rooster Cogburn; Anthony Hopkins, The Remains Of The Day; Jack Lemmon, Missing; Lilia Skala, Lillies Of The Field; Tom Skerritt, A River Runs Through It.
> 
> The Ultimate Enneagram Reference Thread - Typology Central


Humanity is my life. Detachment is a concept that blows my mind. All my personally derived political and social opinions are obsessively compassionate. I don't even know how to hold beliefs that hurt people. Heck, I have a problem with Christianity sometimes because while I can accept that I don't deserve to go to heaven, I can't accept that anyone on earth should deserve to go to hell. 

Some stuff is surprisingly true about me, like not dressing in a flashy way and being calm but sometimes very angry... But even that's a little off, because while I am very calm I am also bursting with emotion and positivity and optimism in a way (even when I'm depressed, ha) I am not often very angry, just at like... my mom, and also I am very infrequently not colorful in my appearance (I love browns and sometimes a dab of black but usually I am wearing green, purple, or blue).


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> @Living dead ah now I am refreshed in what is not 1w9 about me
> 
> 
> Humanity is my life. Detachment is a concept that blows my mind. All my personally derived political and social opinions are obsessively compassionate. I don't even know how to hold beliefs that hurt people. Heck, I have a problem with Christianity sometimes because while I can accept that I don't deserve to go to heaven, I can't accept that anyone on earth should deserve to go to hell.
> 
> Some stuff is surprisingly true about me, like not dressing in a flashy way and being calm but sometimes very angry... But even that's a little off, because while I am very calm I am also bursting with emotion and positivity and optimism in a way (even when I'm depressed, ha) I am not often very angry, just at like... my mom, and also I am very infrequently not colorful in my appearance (I love browns and sometimes a dab of black but usually I am wearing green, purple, or blue).


I agree,9 descriptions fit you better.But that sloth...I don't know,I'd like to see someone write a good Fe dom social 9w1 description.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Living dead I'm going to go to bed myself very soon, but on Sloth 

I can actually see it fitting me in some ways. 

I think that may actually be my problem with myself? The core of my selfishness? 

As we've discussed, I live in a very proactive family. They value hard work. Work ethic. And, umm... unfortunately some Si/S stuff as well, like being diligent in chores, taking time when doing chores, doing chores well, doing chores, doing dishes, performing physical tasks without complaint... 

And that's where they see my selfishness. 

Other people don't see my selfishness, because when you get me in the zone my Fe kicks in and I'll do whatever I need to do. At group events or whatever, I can be so out there and out there doing things, whatever I need to do. I'm starting my "job" tomorrow and I'm quite certain that's basically exactly what I'll be doing, ha. (Hopefully I don't jinx myself...) But when I get home from school or whatever, I need to recharge. I need peace. I need quiet. I need time to do whatever the crap I want, whether that means sleeping, figuring out personality crap, reading a book, or listening to music. 

One example. My sister. My sister lately has been wanting me to help her with her homework, which is kind of cool since I like know all about the subjects she's taking at the sixth grade level. But when she came to me and asked me this, the first thing I said was, "give me five minutes". I can't just get up and help someone immediately! I need to prepare myself mentally and out myself in the right frame of mind first. 

This is what gets me in trouble with my family a lot (one of the things) because like my mom will want me to do chore after chore after chore... And me, I go, "okay, but first let me go use the bathroom," or, "okay, I'll be there in a second" and she goes... ballistic. "No, don't tell me no! You come down here right now! I said right this minute, don't disrespect me and ignore me!" And it's always distressed me, because... I'm not trying to be selfish or disobedient. I will do what she wants me to do, and I'll get it done by the time she wants me to get it done. But I need to do it in my own way, at my own pace, and when I'm ready to do it. 

Identifying this as a sin is almost painful. I should have known it always, but... Yes, I think I do suffer from Sloth, now that I think about it. I don't think it's that I don't care, but rather... I can be lazy. I need to take my time. I am a turtle sometimes. This isn't even scraping the surface of how much I've begun to see myself in Sloth, but... I'm definitely starting to see it in me. Like, way more than I see Pride in me.


----------



## Darkbloom

@alittlebear,a bit random,but you said you sometimes cry and don't even realize you're sad till you notice the tears,or something like that,am I right?Could that be somehow enneagram related?Or have we discussed this before?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> @alittlebear,a bit random,but you said you sometimes cry and don't even realize you're sad till you notice the tears,or something like that,am I right?Could that be somehow enneagram related?Or have we discussed this before?


I've always been told it's totally an Fe/Se thing. Like my thoughts are rational, but I'll be triggered by something and I think I'm okay, I've convinced myself everything is okay, but the tears fall anyway and I realize that "oh, okay, I'm bothered by this stupid thing. Sigh." 

I don't think it's E related though, considering that I've been told by a few sources that experiencing emotion in this way is a pretty ENFJ thing.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay also this is silly, very silly, but I was looking at the Harry Potter topic and I realized 

Being Type 9 could explain why so many people compare me to Luna Lovegood! 

So many people compare me to Luna and obviously it's not for MBTI, I suppose they could just be impacted by my 9-ness so much they have to compare me to her  

Being 9 explains quite a few things actually. Why I thought I was Fi for so long, why on the MBTI tests I came off as a P, why I'm so non confrontational, why I'm so afraid of the number seven...


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I've always been told it's totally an Fe/Se thing. Like my thoughts are rational, but I'll be triggered by something and I think I'm okay, I've convinced myself everything is okay, but the tears fall anyway and I realize that "oh, okay, I'm bothered by this stupid thing. Sigh."
> 
> I don't think it's E related though, considering that I've been told by a few sources that experiencing emotion in this way is a pretty ENFJ thing.


I'm a bit like you but just with anger,my body reacts before anything else and I rarely remember details of fights and arguments because most of it isn't coming from my head,if that makes sense.But sadness,I don't know,I sometimes get a tear or two in my eye when watching a movie even though I'm not really conscious of feeling like crying but when it's something more significant than that I almost make myself cry.It's not really "Hey,I'm crying,I must be sad!",it's more like "Hey,this is sad,let's cry!" XD
Not exactly like that but you get my point.


----------



## galactic collision

@alittlebear I want to see your typing video! Can you send me a link? I can definitely see you as a 9w1 just based on our interactions here. I still really think you're 7-fixed, but I also fully acknowledge that two people don't have to share a fix to still be similar people with similar interests. Regardless, a lot of what you said about guilt resonates with me as a social 7 and I think that could be your 7 fix coming through. That, and you seem fun. I can just tell that you're a fun person to be around. Boom, 7 fix. Only 7 fixers are actually fun people. Everyone else is boring.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@justforthespark I deleted it, gah! But I have a video of my voice giving the order to drop a Pillow Pet, and I might upload that for fun. Next week I might make an Enneagram typing video though, sounds like a good idea actually (can't do it this week unfortunately) 

I am wonderfully fun. My silly psychologist doesn't believe me because all I do is talk about trauma and anxiety and cramp when I'm with her, but everyone else thinks I'm fun. I am a ball of fun. I bring life to everything I touch. (That's why I haven't been invited to anything but a birthday party ever ) 

No but really, I am very excitable and silly. Theme parks make me so happy. Disney makes me happy. Children make me happy. Jokes make me happy. Like, I know they do this for everyone but for me it seems like an integral part of who I am because people like... define me by it, they see me as this "happy energetic optimistic girl who is just so freaking positive all the time" and that seems like a pretty 7-influenced description of someone to me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> I'm a bit like you but just with anger,my body reacts before anything else and I rarely remember details of fights and arguments because most of it isn't coming from my head,if that makes sense.But sadness,I don't know,I sometimes get a tear or two in my eye when watching a movie even though I'm not really conscious of feeling like crying but when it's something more significant than that I almost make myself cry.It's not really "Hey,I'm crying,I must be sad!",it's more like "Hey,this is sad,let's cry!" XD
> Not exactly like that but you get my point.


Yeah, I think that's Fe. I hear Fi knows their sadness before they cry. I wouldn't know. Sounds like some out-of-this-world superpower if you ask me.


----------



## Kintsugi

Swordsman of Mana said:


> she is not a 1. not by a long shot. I have talked with her on skype =P


Yeah, but so have @Hotaru and @Animal and they both (IIRC) saw a lot of "1" in me.

Soo... 

It was interesting/entertaining listening to what other people have to say about my type, but, ultimately, I gotta agree with what @Figure said. I think he understands my frustrations quite well and he made some really valid points (cheers dude!). Right now I simply do not have the time to invest to go "deeper" into this (I'm about to move to the other side of the world). I suspect one day I will revist it, just not right now...

I'm just enjoying life in the fast track right now, doing what I do best; learning from experience.


----------



## o0india0o

@alittlebear

I read _most_ of what I missed from last night.

I think you are 2w1 9w1 XwX (leaning towards type 6 for your head-fix still). I think that having the double type 1 wing for both your core type 2 and type 9 gut fix, would give you the type 1 appearance, while still not being type 1! What do ya' think? eh? eh? 

I'm still leaning towards type 2 for your core type. But you do have a lot of 9-ish vibes coming off you (at least in conversations online).


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Kintsugi said:


> Yeah, but so have @Hotaru and @Animal and they both (IIRC) saw a lot of "1" in me.
> 
> Soo...
> 
> It was interesting/entertaining listening to what other people have to say about my type, but, ultimately, I gotta agree with what @Figure said. I think he understands my frustrations quite well and he made some really valid points (cheers dude!). Right now I simply do not have the time to invest to go "deeper" into this (I'm about to move to the other side of the world). I suspect one day I will revist it, just not right now...
> 
> I'm just enjoying life in the fast track right now, doing what I do best; learning from experience.


a 7 with a line to 1 and a 1 fix can have a lot of 1, but your energy is clearly 7w6 imo (far too bouncy, effervescent and random for 1s, who have a much more steady, grounded energy)


----------



## Kintsugi

Swordsman of Mana said:


> a 7 with a line to 1 and a 1 fix can have a lot of 1, but your energy is clearly 7w6 imo (far too bouncy, effervescent and random for 1s, who have a much more steady, grounded energy)


Well, you were the first person to type me as 7w6, and I wouldn't have bothered looking into it had you not pointed me in that direction. I think, after that, I chatted with @_Flatlander_ via Skype for a while, and he has maintained from the start that I am a 7. Apart from that, the only other types that get chucked my way are 6 and 1, and I can see parts of myself in them too. It might be because of the w6 and link to 1, plus 1-fix. I think @_Hotaru_ was on to something when she described my occasional "reactivate" streak as being quite 4-like (suggesting a 4-fix). 

In any case, when I do have the time to invest into Enneagram properly those are the types I will be looking into in more detail. As well as that, I feel like I need to deepen my overall understanding of the system/theory, as right now it feels very wish-washy. Clearly I am in need of a more holistic understanding of it, all this "surface-level" stuff simply don't cut it for me. It seems to miss the point, entirely.

EDIT: oh, and since it's a mistype thread, and I'm bored. I reckon you'd suit ESFP/SEE 2w3.


----------



## Kisshoten

Any merit in looking into fixes? 

The heart fix is ... strange. Pretty sure of 4. Wing is confusing. 

I stayed with the 3 wing for the longest time. I've never really considered the 5 wing. But, I'd be lying if I said that I was sure about it. Just like how I started off with a w6 on 7 only to realize later that I was wrong. 

The wing 3 was easy and fit well with being 7 overall. I do have some.. affinity to the spotlight although it is not the way I imagine a w3 would have it. I would just chalk that up to 7. Which now leaves me confused as to the wing. Figuring out everything other than wings has been.. fairly simple. 

So.. am I wasting my time alone? Or would someone like to join the procrastination party?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@_Vergil_
Hmm, I don't really know you much, but how _do _​you imagine a w3 would have it?

Edit:


Kintsugi said:


> EDIT: oh, and since it's a mistype thread, and I'm bored. I reckon you'd suit ESFP/SEE 2w3.


Also I might as well add, I'm not sure about 2-core, but SFP seems fitting for SoM indeed.


----------



## Kisshoten

Kink said:


> @_Vergil_
> Hmm, I don't really know you much, but how _do _​you imagine a w3 would have it?


I'd imagine that the affinity for the spotlight is driven by a need to be seen in general, like they want people to watch. This quality is present in 7 and I did want to be seen when I was younger. But as grew up the spotlight seemed like.. the short end of a stick. 

When you're in the spotlight, all anyone else ever sees is that you have attention and admiration. The truth is though, once the spotlight is on you, you're there to be examined, cross-questioned, built up, broken down, to become a passtime that is welcome in light of the other passtimes that are getting old only to get discarded and forgotten. To keep up with being in the spotlight is to allow yourself to be monitored almost constantly. And lets not forget that people fail to realize that you're a person too, just like them. It is all too easy to destroy someone when they're in the limelight and everyone is allowed to poke their nose into your thoughts, your business, etc. 

When I came to look at it like that, the spotlight made me very, very wary. I kinda grew from being the attention seeking, magnanimous know-it all to a silent bystander, just watching. Not that I don't get noticed, I do; more than I'd like at that. But.. it's not something I want most often. The spotlight makes me strangely uncomfortable. I like to stay hidden, or at least obscure. Popularity is overrated anyway. 

xD


----------



## Kintsugi

Kink said:


> @_Vergil_
> Also I might as well add, I'm not sure about 2-core, but SFP seems fitting for SoM indeed.


2w3 was a playful shot in the dark, tbh (I also really can't see 5). I can't type myself let alone anyone else, lol.

Totally feel the xSFP vibe though. Always have done. I see a lot of Se-Te in @_Swordsman of Mana_ 

Dare I say that he might benefit deepening his perspective with a lil bit of Ni. 

Oooh, I'm cheeky. :kitteh:


----------



## o0india0o

@Swordsman of Mana

Well, have you ever filled out an Enneagram Questionnaire?


----------



## Kisshoten

Wistfulness said:


> Alright, I'll ignore you then. Enjoy your new spot in my PerC block list.


hmm... 

Thanks anyway


----------



## Psithurism

Vergil said:


> hmm...
> 
> Thanks anyway


I was joking in case it wasn't clear. I like you; I won't be blocking you.

I guess I can come off overly serious myself if I don't watch out.


----------



## o0india0o

Well, I've just noticed that you (SoM) can be blunt, and _seemingly_ open, but you are not as open as you appear. Especially emotionally. You don't talk about your feelings as much (at least from what I've seen). & a brief skim over your posts from 3 years ago - - you seemed much more open and emotional;; you seem a bit more jaded now (some sort of heartbreak in your life?). Or maybe that's just what 3 years does to a person. XD

I notice you have maneuvers my Type 3 and Type 2 friends have;; they either redirect you to discussing something about your life, or something going on with you, or they distract you with topics that _seem_ emotional on the surface. That part of you does seem rather 5-ish;; you guard your heart quite fiercely (imo).


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

o0india0o said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> 
> Well, have you ever filled out an Enneagram Questionnaire?


yes. I actually filled it out when I wasn't looking for my type during a period where I just wanted some attention :laughing:

http://personalitycafe.com/gossip/163122-another-questionnaire-just-cuz-im-attention-whore-p.html


----------



## Kisshoten

Wistfulness said:


> I was joking in case it wasn't clear. I like you; I won't be blocking you.
> 
> I guess I can come off overly serious myself if I don't watch out.


You like me already? Wow.. 

What can i say? I'm surprised. xD


----------



## Psithurism

Vergil said:


> You like me already? Wow..
> 
> What can i say? I'm surprised. xD


Well, I've read some of your posts around before and they can be interesting. That's about it.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@o0india0o


> Well, I've just noticed that you (SoM) can be blunt, and seemingly open, but you are not as open as you appear. Especially emotionally.


good, because I was going through a *very* vulnerable time during that period of my life. basically, my Sx dominance was repressed as hell up until that point (being a *** living about an hour away from Westboro Baptist Church will do that to you. one hardly felt safe during one's youth). realizing the deep existential sadness, loneliness, pain, *hunger* inside me....it was a time of liberation, but also of facing a great amount of pain



> You don't talk about your feelings as much (at least from what I've seen). & a brief skim over your posts from 3 years ago - - you seemed much more open and emotional;; you seem a bit more jaded now (some sort of heartbreak in your life?). Or maybe that's just what 3 years does to a person. XD


romantic drama will do that to you after a certain point (honestly, you should have seen me before that time period when I was _really_ fixed. I was about as calloused as the wart on a witches nose, and half as sensitive). 



> I notice you have maneuvers my Type 3 and Type 2 friends have;; they either redirect you to discussing something about your life, or something going on with you, or they distract you with topics that seem emotional on the surface. That part of you does seem rather 5-ish;; you guard your heart quite fiercely (imo).


I'm more open in 1 on 1 situations. I don't believe in publicizing personal problems at inappropriate times (probably the 1 influence in me). to me, that shows weakness, lack of self control, and a desire for pity (an emotion I openly despise and view as useless)

PS: yes, I realize this all sounds very 8, but again, I am far too head center-y to be an 8, as I'm sure anyone who has talked to me at length (such as @Mandraque) can attest


----------



## Psithurism

Oh right, I forgot to explicitly state:

If anyone has any impressions on my type (core, mbti, instincts, tritype, anything), feel free to share. I am very open to commentary.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Wistfulness said:


> Oh right, I forgot to explicitly state:
> 
> If anyone has any impressions on my type (core, mbti, instincts, tritype, anything), feel free to share. I am very open to commentary.


Sexual 5 works, maybe Sexual 9 as an alternative (I never bought you as a 2. too understated and detached)


----------



## o0india0o

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @o0india0o
> 
> good, because I was going through a *very* vulnerable time during that period of my life. basically, my Sx dominance was repressed as hell up until that point (being a *** living about an hour away from Westboro Baptist Church will do that to you. one hardly felt safe during one's youth). realizing the deep existential sadness, loneliness, pain, *hunger* inside me....it was a time of liberation, but also of facing a great amount of pain
> 
> 
> romantic drama will do that to you after a certain point (honestly, you should have seen me before that time period when I was _really_ fixed. I was about as calloused as the wart on a witches nose, and half as sensitive).
> 
> 
> I'm more open in 1 on 1 situations. I don't believe in publicizing personal problems at inappropriate times (probably the 1 influence in me). to me, that shows weakness, lack of self control, and a desire for pity (an emotion I openly despise and view as useless)
> 
> PS: yes, I realize this all sounds very 8, but again, I am far too head center-y to be an 8, as I'm sure anyone who has talked to me at length (such as @Mandraque) can attest


I see your crustiness as a defense mechanism. I didn't at first, but the more I talked to you, I realized you are a sweet heart (I know you're going to hate me for saying that;; I apologize, I'm taking liberties - - for what it's worth, these are just my impressions, they do not define who you are as a person). 

I think you genuinely do have some vested interest in power, but it comes across similar to that of a Type 2 or Type 3 (for the record, I'm not typing you as either of those, I'm just jotting my mental notes down XD). Your power grab doesn't seem as direct as Type 8. The pieces of you that come across as Type 8-ish, I think are just more bark than real bite (though I don't think you'd hesitate to bite someone in self-defense, Ha Ha - - metaphorically speaking here). I know Type 8's can have ooey gooey centers;; but you just feel different than that to me.

When you go after power, you tend to manipulate and use information of your opponents. Hell, you have hoards of information about everyone on PerC (or so it seems) - - your friend list is giant. People open up to you, and you hold all the cards. That strikes me as similar to my Type 2 or Type 3 friends.

Eesh! Good to know how I'm coming across to you in the forums, Ha ha! :tongue:



> "I'm more open in 1 on 1 situations. I don't believe in publicizing personal problems at inappropriate times (probably the 1 influence in me). to me, that shows weakness, lack of self control, and a desire for pity (an emotion I openly despise and view as useless)"


You're an interesting character. A bit of an enigma, wrapped in a complex wrapper. I find that intriguing.


----------



## Psithurism

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Sexual 5 works, maybe Sexual 9 as an alternative (I never bought you as a 2. too understated and detached)


Yea, it was a fairly ludicrous typing for my core. I over-emphasized certain aspects of me that only really exist when I'm in a relationship. I still see it as my probable heart fix however.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm not gut center or decisive enough to be an 8. granted, it's definitely in my makeup somewhere (I relate significantly to most of the motivations and worldview/beliefs of 8, and most descriptions and exemplars of 8s resonate with me on an intuitive level), but they have this sense of "I know what to do"....and then they do it.


Well, how do you explain your connection to 8 then? or do you at all ? hmm, maybe thats why you type at 5, with intergration line to 8?

you always seem to look up to 8'ish characteristics and disliking 9'ish ones.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

o0india0o said:


> I see your crustiness as a defense mechanism. I didn't at first, but the more I talked to you, I realized you are a sweet heart (I know you're going to hate me for saying that;; I apologize, I'm taking liberties - - for what it's worth, these are just my impressions, they do not define who you are as a person).


...I do hate it, but sometimes it's true :tongue: not that the more callous side is "fake" either though. my personality is very Jeckyl/Hide between more predatory, lusty, power seeking, callous and more sweet, cuddly, just wanting the perfect romantic partner to cuddle up to forever and run away in a Twilight romance with lol



> I think you genuinely do have some vested interest in power, but it comes across similar to that of a Type 2 or Type 3 (for the record, I'm not typing you as either of those, I'm just jotting my mental notes down XD). Your power grab doesn't seem as direct as Type 8. The pieces of you that come across as Type 8-ish, I think are just more bark than real bite (though I don't think you'd hesitate to bite someone in self-defense, Ha Ha - - metaphorically speaking here). I know Type 8's can have ooey gooey centers;; but you just feel different than that to me.


*similar to 2:* certainly. a lot of my power seeking comes from loneliness "I am unlovable as I am, so I need to make them love me"
*similar to 3:* no. I considered 3 fix/core on a few occasions, but the more I learn about them, I have zero 3 influence.



> Your power grab doesn't seem as direct as Type 8. The pieces of you that come across as Type 8-ish, I think are just more bark than real bite (though I don't think you'd hesitate to bite someone in self-defense, Ha Ha - - metaphorically speaking here). I know Type 8's can have ooey gooey centers;; but you just feel different than that to me


if what you mean is that I have little real power, that's something I've been aware of for a few years now, and it is a great source of frustration. so, if my "more bark than bite" you mean I'm not able to actually DO much at the moment, then there is a grain of truth to that



> When you go after power, you tend to manipulate and use information of your opponents. Hell, you have hoards of information about everyone on PerC (or so it seems) - - your friend list is giant. People open up to you, and you hold all the cards. That strikes me as similar to my Type 2 or Type 3 friends.


you're not the first person to get that impression, but honestly, as @Vajra stated, I'm a zillion times more socially retarded than that :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Sexual 5 works, maybe Sexual 9 as an alternative (I never bought you as a 2. too understated and detached)


NGL I didn't realize sexual 5 was such a thing until you just directly mentioned it. (Sexual and 5... Two concepts that are in my mind so distant from each other.) 

Of course you identify as sexual and 5, but I never made the connection until now. 

To update on my type journey @o0india0o @Living dead, I'm just more confused. Yesterday I was put at a part of the jobs we were working where like... I didn't do anything. I mean, I did what they needed me to and my place away from them was very useful, because someone had to do my job, but I was content to just sit and read. 

I went home and made a video (in hopes of sharing with y'all) about how I related to 9, how I was leaning to that. 

But _today_... Today I was on the job like 24/7 (for ten hours, not 24, ha, but) and I _loved_ it. People really do energize me. Talking to people energizes me. Serving people energizes me. And... That's what I was doing. 

Then when I got off my shift, I went and helped another group on their shift for two hours. Voluntarily. Because I felt bad just sitting around doing nothing (as they'd had me do the day before) when I can be out there doing something. 

I still relate to 9 for a few reasons. There's the obvious reason, because I'm way too socially awkward to be a 2, but it's more than that. I know that @Swordsman of Mana's Worst Traits post isn't to be taken wholly seriously, but the 9 problem he mentioned of not having a personality is so so so much more relevant to me than 2s trait of... being an emotional predator. Being an emotional predator sounds kinda cool. But it's not something I could ever, ever pull off. 

But I do struggle with having a personality. I'm constantly mirroring others. I'm constantly fitting myself according to what people want from me. I'm constantly trying to be as small and non-taxing as possible. 

I admire Fi types actually because they're so filled with life and who they are. They are them. Even when they don't fit in, they do fit in because they know their place in the world, it seems eye assigned themselves their own place in the world. And same with 4s, obviously, and others types... And 2s as well, I get this idea that they can just throw themselves into a situation and help some way. (That's something I also struggled with on the job. When push came to shove my Fe shined through and I did what I needed, people saw how good I was with people, but before that no one could see my strengths. I try to be helpful, and I want to be helpful, I crave it... But fact is I bumble around until people assign me a place. Anyway.) (also I know I'm sounding like a 6 no need to point it out ) 

What I mean though is like, I have a hard time finding my place. And I greatly admire those who have a place, who just fit, you know? Who have personality and it seems like the world fully belongs to them because they know who they are, they know their place in the broad scheme of things, they feel like they fit, like they have a voice and an impact. 

But I don't have that. And while I've come to terms with my not having that, it still feels like a ridiculously 9 thing to both not have a personality or like a "presence" (I crave having a "presence," being able to walk into a room and people respect me or see some aspect of my personality that isn't just "bubbly sweet helpful innocent happiness king") and at the same time be sort of okay and accepting of that because you would rather be non intrusive and not have a presence than be intrusive and have a presence. 

But still, like, I felt so 2 today once my natural awkwardness shut off? 

I don't know. I don't know. Sorry this is rambling, but I've been talking about my type on this thread and these are my most recent thoughts regarding my type ^

Edit: also some of my other recent thoughts:

- isn't 9 like supposed to form into all the types it isn't to make people feel better or something? To be what they think others think they should be? Because like that could explain why I came off so 2 in my OP and stuff 

- like honestly part of me just wants to be 2 just to have someone in their poor abandoned forum 

- isn't 9 supposed to relate to everything they hear? Like I know I took an enneagram test and I related to like 80% of each thing for each type and Living dead took it and related like none to anything...

- still wondering if 9 Fe-dom can even be a thing or nah 

- I mean they're considering me as INFJ but we all know I'm not INFJ and still not sure if an FJ even could be 9 

- idk sorry for the long post but for those following my case these are my latest scattered thoughts (honestly I am working so I haven't been able to devote much thought to it but these are my current contemplations


----------



## pivot_turn

@alittlebear Like I've said before, I'm not an expert on enneagram, but to me Fe actually seems to fit much more with 9 than Fi if you mix in MBTI into this. That would be for reasons you stated yourself, like 9 and Fe both focusing on others and finding a way to fit with everyone and not creating conflict but rather making everyone get along. Also 9 is often described as more outward focused because of that insecurity in their inner world and personality (or something along those lines).

Me thinking of you more as 2 has also been a bit based on first impressions and scattered inpressions from different parts of your thread, but I can see 9 also as a possibility for core. I still see some 1 though too, but that's maybe not the core though. I think you have some amount of competence as a coping strategy, which would fit with something of 1 or 5 in your type. I also think though that 6 might fit with some of the traits that seem 1-ish in you, like being quite clear on your values and defending them (and some other thought I forgot about right now, but along the same lines). So having 6 somehow in your tritype in my opinion wouldn't be quite as anxiety related as to be confused with anxiety related disorders. 

Oh and as I'm visiting this thread anyway, if anyone has any thoughts on my type feel free to say so. I know I'm not that known though, with my um... less than 300 posts so far I think.  But anyhow I currently type myself as having the fixes 3w4, 7w6 and 9w1, but unsure of the order. Slightly actually leaning 7 core at this moment, even though originally when I last almost decided on my type I typed as head fix last. And so/sx. I'm working on posting a new type me-thread soon though.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

pivot_turn said:


> That would be for reasons you stated yourself, like 9 and Fe both focusing on others and finding a way to fit with everyone and not creating conflict but rather making everyone get along.


A bit nitpicky, perhaps, but I don't think of 9 as necessarily being prone to "making everyone get along." Sounds a bit imposing after all.


----------



## pivot_turn

Kink said:


> A bit nitpicky, perhaps, but I don't think of 9 as necessarily being prone to "making everyone get along." Sounds a bit imposing after all.


Yes, you may be right. I was perhaps trying to say too much about Fe and 9 at the same time, plus not finding the right words. I was thinking with 9 more of the conflict avoidant thing than being actually that active in it, but maybe still in a slightly active way as "Guys please don't fight now. Can't we just try to agree and get along, or find some sort of compromise." If that's not 9, then I'm not 9, because that sort of thing of finding compromises and trying to a bit carefully calm down fights, is probably the part of me that I identify most with nine, if I'm not forgetting something else.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

pivot_turn said:


> Yes, you may be right. I was perhaps trying to say too much about Fe and 9 at the same time, plus not finding the right words. I was thinking with 9 more of the conflict avoidant thing than being actually that active in it, but maybe still in a slightly active way as "Guys please don't fight now. Can't we just try to agree and get along, or find some sort of compromise." If that's not 9, then I'm not 9, because that sort of thing of finding compromises and trying to a bit carefully calm down fights, is probably the part of me that I identify most with nine, if I'm not forgetting something else.


Yes, I think the same thing. I'm not sure how a 9 Fi would work, but for me... I don't know, I've got the Fe so I overly care how I affect other people, but I want to affect them positively. And I've got the Fe so I want to make people happy just because making people happy makes me immediately happy (without the mediation - this is unfounded but I see a go-between-guy with Fi? Like they would have to check with their morals or something? Not sure but) but I do it way more consciously than other Fe users I know. So many Fe users I know are like kind to your face and in the moment of your conversation, but then they'll ignore you? Like they might not actually care or something, but they pretend to care? With me like I always care, like most every person I come across they make me want to hug them and love them, and my being very polite and attentive to them just like... makes me happy, 

I get a lot out of promoting peace and harmony because then all the people around me are set. (Honestly I don't know how other Fe-doms would ever be bullies or something? Or intentionally start drama? That would make people unhappy! That would give the room bad feelings! But Fe-doms and FJs and lots of Fe users are like... able to just set bad feelings off in others without a second thought, and I think that my hypersensitivity to others could be the result of my being an Fe 9. 

Does anyone have any idea how 9 is always associated with Fi? I guess if you valued peace or something? And 9 is about developing a sense of self that is strong, maybe that's something that has something to do with it? I can see how in theory it could be Fe though, because 9 makes me seem as if they would be pacifying people and their emotions, trying to guard positive emotions, and that's very much (to some extent) what I do. 

Also, I can't imagine making people get along. Like, approaching two fighting people and going "Oh my gosh guys, wow, just be friends!!" or something. Well, okay, I may have definitely made a few comments similar to that in my life, but mostly for me my pacifying people is more tending to the emotional needs of those who need it in whatever ways I can. 

I think it's hard to explain, and I am in a rush so I'm not sure that I am explaining it well. But this is sort of what I meant. 

Also, thank you Pivot for your clarification and thoughts. I'll try to respond to them later today when I get the chance ^^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay, example. This girl has to pick me up for work. I know she was working very late last night. Unfortunately, she has to pick me up early today because our boss said we both have to be there early. It is socially appropriate to text her and tell her about the time change. That's what I did last night. But it's also socially appropriate to text her again this morning and ask when she'll be here. But I can't bring myself to do that. I know she's stressed enough as if is, and probably incredibly tired from last night ni don't want to pressure her anymore. 

I feel as if I bothered her she would see me as a bothersome, needy person and I don't want to be seen as that? (That sounds 2 actually but the problem is bigger than just how she sees me.) 

But most Fe-doms wouldn't have a problem with that, you know? 

Yeah. I'm going to work now but that's an example. Thank you everyone for your help, and sorry for hogging some of this thread for so long lately!


----------



## Darkbloom

You admiring parts of 2 even after finding out about the bad things about it,and craving to have "presence",and wanting popularity but at the same time feeling like you can't have it and then accepting it by saying it's better to just be good and make people happy,not burden anyone,but you are also ambitious and proud of your accomplishments in some ways(remember when I told you you seemed more accomplishment driven than I am? XD),it all feels like 9's connection to 3.




alittlebear said:


> Then when I got off my shift, I went and helped another group on their shift for two hours. Voluntarily. Because I felt bad just sitting around doing nothing (as they'd had me do the day before) when I can be out there doing something.*


This is not non-9,from my experience it's actually very 9.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@alittlebear
what made you type as a 2 in the first place? the more I read your posts, you not only seem non-2, but you seem like you have a very _weak_ 2 fix.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

alittlebear said:


> Okay, example. This girl has to pick me up for work. I know she was working very late last night. Unfortunately, she has to pick me up early today because our boss said we both have to be there early. It is socially appropriate to text her and tell her about the time change. That's what I did last night. But it's also socially appropriate to text her again this morning and ask when she'll be here. But I can't bring myself to do that. I know she's stressed enough as if is, and probably incredibly tired from last night ni don't want to pressure her anymore.
> 
> I feel as if I bothered her she would see me as a bothersome, needy person and I don't want to be seen as that? (That sounds 2 actually but the problem is bigger than just how she sees me.)
> 
> But most Fe-doms wouldn't have a problem with that, you know?
> 
> Yeah. I'm going to work now but that's an example. Thank you everyone for your help, and sorry for hogging some of this thread for so long lately!


Interesting.

Fe is usually more objective than this and wouldnt get lost in over-thinking about bothering people like that. This seems like an introverted function, very narrow and subjective focus. What if she has fallen asleep and you would be doing her a favor by texting for example ?

Also notice, how it ties to "you" not wanting to be seen as sth. (a bothersome, needy person) rather than whats socially appropiate or not.


----------



## Kisshoten

crashbandicoot said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Fe is usually more objective than this and wouldnt get lost in over-thinking about bothering people like that. This seems like an introverted function, very narrow and subjective focus. What if she has fallen asleep and you would be doing her a favor by texting for example ?
> 
> *Also notice, how it ties to "you" not wanting to be seen as sth. (a bothersome, needy person) rather than whats socially appropiate or not.*


Not entirely true. 

Fe does think a lot about what other people might feel. How they approach the matter and for what purpose they think of other people's feelings is what varies. 

I know a lot of Fe dom/aux people going through the same kind of dilemmas. To do or not to do? To do, because it is x y z?? Or not to do because it is a b c?? It's a pretty common theme. 

The bold part is...close. It is not necessary that an Fe dom/aux person concerns themselves with such questions in order to maintain a reputation or an image.

For example, a type 9 xSFJ I know engages in these kinds of thoughts because they do not want to bother other people and do not like to come off as too fastidious. Fastidiousness is associated with rigidity and generally a disposition towards not getting along, of which this person is typically the antithesis. Personally, I think this person also worries about such things because of abandonment issues. "_I'll be abandoned if I ask too much, or if I become a bother." 

_This person prefers to be the one to make or break ties, although breaking ties is often seen as a last resort which they rarely resort to. With this person, the emphasis is in retaining control and maintaining boundaries by being amiable, so that making or breaking the relationship usually lies in their hands and not in the hands of others.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

crashbandicoot said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Fe is usually more objective than this and wouldnt get lost in over-thinking about bothering people like that. This seems like an introverted function, very narrow and subjective focus. What if she has fallen asleep and you would be doing her a favor by texting for example ?
> 
> Also notice, how it ties to "you" not wanting to be seen as sth. (a bothersome, needy person) rather than whats socially appropiate or not.


I thought Fe would be concerned with how they would be seen? Fi I thought wouldn't care as much, because they want to be a good person and care about following their values, while Fe cares more about being liked and being socially appropriate. 

Also, for me it's not overthinking. It's just automatic. Even if she did oversleep, which she actually did, she still needs the rest and I know our "boss" isn't actually our boss and would be understanding about our arriving late. (And we actually didn't arrive late, it was completely understandable, so it was fine.) 

If Fe isn't concerned with how they're seen in this way, then you need to come talk to me on my MBTI topic so I can be properly placed into my type. (Or someone does, at least.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I just don't want to annoy or bother people. And I know that if I did bother her she probably would find me annoying, and... As someone who is very frequently perceived as annoying in a not so socially appropriate way, I really try to avoid that. I also have GAD, so my social anxiety may factor heavily into it.


----------



## cinnabun

@alittlebear


You seem like a social 9w1 to me.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

alittlebear said:


> I thought Fe would be concerned with how they would be seen? Fi I thought wouldn't care as much, because they want to be a good person and care about following their values, while Fe cares more about being liked and being socially appropriate.


Yet, you know its socially appropriate to ask and you still couldnt do it because you dont want to annoy her. OK. From what I've seen about Enneagram, thats more in line with 9 than 2. Your fixation about your presence being annoying to others. Like, you dont matter to them so your actions would be annoying.

I actually relate to that a bit. I also feel like I'm over asking for stuff sometimes, which is my 9-fix.



> As someone who is very frequently perceived as annoying in a not so socially appropriate way, I really try to avoid that.


That sounds at odss with being Fe-dom but anxiety may be in effect here, I think.



> If Fe isn't concerned with how they're seen in this way, then you need to come talk to me on my MBTI topic so I can be properly placed into my type. (Or someone does, at least.)


Well, no, I *really* dont need to go to your thread or talk to you about anything.


----------



## Darkbloom

crashbandicoot said:


> Well, no, I*really*dont need to go to your thread or talk to you about anything.


----------



## Sweetish

Chesire Tower said:


> I agree with the separateness and putting up of walls but I would only say that "implicit hostility" would only occur at the lower levels and be affected by MBTI type as well: more likely for TeFi types than Fe/Ti. Based on my interactions on this forum, I would also add that I have found this to be slightly more true for 5w6s than 5w4s and of course, SO lasts.


Mm. *raises hand* Guilty.

I'm implicitly hostile toward anyone whom I gave a benefit of a doubt to and they then blatantly took a shit on it. That my initial, half-hearted trust wasn't valued but was instead exploited can profoundly alienate me, because I don't extend that to just anyone. Not many people in my life have earned that implicit hostility, but when they do I think the message I send is obvious enough: Stay out of my business. Don't talk to me. Leave me alone. (with the subtext of: If you don't, then I'm likely to make you regret it.)

Whether it's a look in my eyes or tone in my voice, I've done this again and again. I've done it to individuals who had no clue why I was shutting them out, their subsequent shock readily apparent.

Most people who know me do know where my walls are, what limits they can't push into. It's because strangers have no prior experience with me that I tend to go easy on them, or at least politely decline to talk about a particular subject.

My enneagram type 5w6 brother, INTJ, has a knack for not letting particular people get to him, for tolerating them in an amiable manner that he makes look quite effortless, so I'd say that he's healthier or higher level than I am. He'll willingly endure things which I, as an Fe-aux, would simply refuse to. He has more tact and pragmatism. He'd make a good spy. :Þ


----------



## Pressed Flowers

crashbandicoot said:


> Yet, you know its socially appropriate to ask and you still couldnt do it because you dont want to annoy her. OK. From what I've seen about Enneagram, thats more in line with 9 than 2. Your fixation about your presence being annoying to others. Like, you dont matter to them so your actions would be annoying.
> 
> I actually relate to that a bit. I also feel like I'm over asking for stuff sometimes, which is my 9-fix.
> 
> 
> That sounds at odss with being Fe-dom but anxiety may be in effect here, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, no, I *really* dont need to go to your thread or talk to you about anything.


In regards to your last statement, the sass is always appreciated. I added the part in parenthesis to clarify that I wasn't trying to boss you around. I was only trying to say that if those are qualities of Fi and not Fe then I must have some type reconsideration to do.


----------



## Vaka

Sweetish said:


> Mm. *raises hand* Guilty.
> 
> I'm implicitly hostile toward anyone whom I gave a benefit of a doubt to and they then blatantly took a shit on it. That my initial, half-hearted trust wasn't valued but was instead exploited can profoundly alienate me, because I don't extend that to just anyone. Not many people in my life have earned that implicit hostility, but when they do I think the message I send is obvious enough: Stay out of my business. Don't talk to me. Leave me alone. (with the subtext of: If you don't, then I'm likely to make you regret it.)
> 
> Whether it's a look in my eyes or tone in my voice, I've done this again and again. I've done it to individuals who had no clue why I was shutting them out, their subsequent shock readily apparent.
> 
> Most people who know me do know where my walls are, what limits they can't push into. It's because strangers have no prior experience with me that I tend to go easy on them, or at least politely decline to talk about a particular subject.
> 
> My enneagram type 5w6 brother, INTJ, has a knack for not letting particular people get to him, for tolerating them in an amiable manner that he makes look quite effortless, so I'd say that he's healthier or higher level than I am. He'll willingly endure things which I, as an Fe-aux, would simply refuse to. He has more tact and pragmatism. He'd make a good spy. :Þ


I'm curious as I see a lot of 5s writing about their trust in others...How does it differ from the issues a 6/6w5 might have in your eyes?


----------



## Chesire Tower

Sweetish said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mm. *raises hand* Guilty.
> 
> I'm implicitly hostile toward anyone whom I gave a benefit of a doubt to and they then blatantly took a shit on it. That my initial, half-hearted trust wasn't valued but was instead exploited can profoundly alienate me, because I don't extend that to just anyone. Not many people in my life have earned that implicit hostility, but when they do I think the message I send is obvious enough: Stay out of my business. Don't talk to me. Leave me alone. (with the subtext of: If you don't, then I'm likely to make you regret it.)
> 
> Whether it's a look in my eyes or tone in my voice, I've done this again and again. I've done it to individuals who had no clue why I was shutting them out, their subsequent shock readily apparent.
> 
> Most people who know me do know where my walls are, what limits they can't push into. It's because strangers have no prior experience with me that I tend to go easy on them, or at least politely decline to talk about a particular subject.
> 
> My enneagram type 5w6 brother, INTJ, has a knack for not letting particular people get to him, for tolerating them in an amiable manner that he makes look quite effortless, so I'd say that he's healthier or higher level than I am. He'll willingly endure things which I, as an Fe-aux, would simply refuse to. He has more tact and pragmatism. He'd make a good spy. :Þ


I try to give people the benefit of the doubt as long as I can but when it's abundantly clear that they revel in basically being phony, two-faced and mean-spirited; than I just avoid them and once I make it crystal clear to someone to steer clear of me and my boundaries and they still won't back off of them; I can then become atypically vigilant in defending those exploited boundaries of mine.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I thought Fe would be concerned with how they would be seen? Fi I thought wouldn't care as much, because they want to be a good person and care about following their values, while Fe cares more about being liked and being socially appropriate.
> 
> Also, for me it's not overthinking. It's just automatic. Even if she did oversleep, which she actually did, she still needs the rest and I know our "boss" isn't actually our boss and would be understanding about our arriving late. (And we actually didn't arrive late, it was completely understandable, so it was fine.)
> 
> If Fe isn't concerned with how they're seen in this way, then you need to come talk to me on my MBTI topic so I can be properly placed into my type. (Or someone does, at least.)


I don't know about Fe and can't speak for all Fi-users, but I definitely have had thoughts similar to yours. Even little things like asking for a ride made me worry that I was a burden, or bothersome, or selfish, or needy. So it is possible for an Fi-user to feel this way. Some Fi-users may not care what others think of them, but I think many do care and are very insecure, particularly when things like GAD are involved. I think the difference is that even though the Fi-user cares how others feel or how others think of them, they will not violate key values or act inauthentically (once they know what is authentic for them)...and if they do compromise, it causes psychological and emotional distress, a feeling of betrayal that can even lead to a lost sense of self.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom thank you for your response!

I'm not sure if I care about being authentic? I'm not even sure what authentic is. I become a seemingly different person each time i interact with a different group of people... and I love it. I love matching the groups and becoming what I can to fit them. I guess one would consider that inauthentic - my mom calls me "fake" for it, always annoyed by how i act differently around different people (but I can't help it?) - but for me it's just what I do. 

Also, I'm confused about values. I won't hurt other people, but on my thread that's been associated with my "healthy" (in some ways) Fe. The Fe users I've spoken with agree that they do the same thing that I do in not wanting to hurt others. (And it's not like, a value to me... I just can't imagine intentionally agitating someone or going against them, seeking to hurt them. Their emotions are mine. It's immediate. I cannot help but do anything else lest I injure myself emotionally.)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @fair phantom thank you for your response!
> 
> I'm not sure if I care about being authentic? I'm not even sure what authentic is. I become a seemingly different person each time i interact with a different group of people... and I love it. I love matching the groups and becoming what I can to fit them. I guess one would consider that inauthentic - my mom calls me "fake" for it, always annoyed by how i act differently around different people (but I can't help it?) - but for me it's just what I do.
> 
> Also, I'm confused about values. I won't hurt other people, but on my thread that's been associated with my "healthy" (in some ways) Fe. The Fe users I've spoken with agree that they do the same thing that I do in not wanting to hurt others. (And it's not like, a value to me... I just can't imagine intentionally agitating someone or going against them, seeking to hurt them. Their emotions are mine. It's immediate. I cannot help but do anything else lest I injure myself emotionally.)


Sounds Fe!

I think everyone uses all 8 functions, so _some_ Fi-tendencies are to be expected, but I get the impression that you use Fe much more than Fi. 

(and for what it is worth I also get the impression that you are a 9).


----------



## DomNapoleon

I have decided to type as 6w5. Who disagrees?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Mandraque said:


> I have decided to type as 6w5. Who disagrees?


progress has been made =)


----------



## o0india0o

@Swordsman of Mana

To be honest, I combed over your Enneagram Questionnaire (for longer than I'd like to admit), and while I feel like you exhibit a lot of contradictory behavior (not sure where that stems from) - - all roads led back to Type 5. I think the only reason I questioned it, was because you seem a lot more emotionally passionate than _all_ the Type 5's I know. But then again, you're *clearly* SX-dom (it really comes through in your writing) - - so maybe I've just never met an SX Type 5?

Sometimes the Type 5's I know speak defensively or get loud and contradict others in a debate, but it still lacks the emotionality that you speak with. *shrug* 

Plus, I realized that Type 5's tend to have that oscar-the-grouch outside, with a secret sweet inner (similar to type 8's) - - I feel this describes you well. I also still get intimidation anxiety, like you're waiting to tell me what I said was stupid (or at least I _know_ you're thinking it) - - I literally only get that sensation around Type 5's. & I forgot that Type 5's are in the power-seeking group;; because I see you as someone who does seek and desire power.

Anyways, there are wayyy more reasons than that (maybe someday, when I focus - - I'll respond to your Enneagram questionnaire :laughing. But those were some main points I wanted to toss out there.


----------



## o0india0o

In other news. I have **officially** decided to change my Type!
I listened to everything you guys said, and thought about it really hard.
& I think it really made an impression on me.

So, I'm now typing as a Type 8*!*
Come prove me wrong!


----------



## Golden Rose

Kintsugi said:


> Excuse me, but....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if this is a joke, but...you are definitely _*not *_IxTJ. I don't have any opinion with regards Enneagram, but in terms of Jung/MBTI/Socionics/whatever.... you are _very _much a Fi dom. And Fi/Ne at that...


It's not a joke, I moved it to IxTJ but I'm still exploring/analyzing things.

I know that you have your opinion on my type and we interacted through text and video a few times but there's other factors that need to be taken into account, even more so with mental illness and the fact I come across very differently in person.

We can discuss it on Skype too.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> Ah, well... I relate to those things, but for me it's not sad... It's just true. (That might be because I have some disassociation with trauma though, these qualities might make a bit too much sense for me because I'm irrationally like this or something? Not sure.)
> 
> But I can say, as your self-pronounced 9 person... I would never do what you described at the bottom. I'm not important until I am important and crucial to something, and like... asserting my own importance, making conflict to be important... That would just out my value at like -12 because I would only be causing problems, while if I don't cause problems and I just help my value could be like... 0, you know, like anyone could fill my job but at least I'm serving it as I must and not causing too many ripples.
> 
> Of course I can see how that would make you important - it would make you important to people, and they would be involved in your life and you in theirs, but... I don't know, that isn't what I would do. Whether that means it's not 9 or not me I'm not sure, but. Thought I would add that.
> 
> I can see 9 in you but not that much 9, you know?


Yeah,haha,makes sense since it is very probable it's just in my tritype and the last one I'd say XD

I think that maybe 2 hasn't been viewed from all sides in relation to me.
Like,people either think I can't be a 2 and that's it or they are sure I'm a 2 because they see Naranjo 2 in me and while I do agree I'm no angel and believe Naranjo's 2 stuff generally makes more sense than those saintly descriptions I also think that Beatrice Chestnut's 2 and 9 core beliefs look very similar in some parts,and there's no "I'm awesome and you have to give me everything I want" under 2 beliefs lol,and people seem to forget that.
What I'm saying is that my relation to 9 could be more 2(or really,whatever my heart fix is) but 9 things are the ones I react to because they are so direct and don't have any additional stuff that makes them any less or more ugly than they really are?
It's just weird how I don't feel much about other beliefs and 9 ones make me feel like crying :/

I feel that value=0 means importance=0,value=12 is importance=12 and value=-12 is still importance=12
I feel stupid about using the word "importance" but no idea how to express it 
I guess I think that there's some special kind of "value" beyond the obvious and it can be both positive and negative but it always counts as that special value


----------



## d e c a d e n t

alittlebear said:


> Yeah, I'm not too vague? I guess it depends on what one means by vague. I can be very direct, especially when in the classroom or when I'm talking to someone or something, but when I'm in a big group discussion or in a crowd I can be very... vague, yes. I want to please everyone and not intrude, so... I do that.


Oh yeah, I guess I never explained what I meant by that. I mean, you don't give the impression of your ~inner core~ being surrounded by fog or anything like that, not to a strong degree anyway, which is kind of how I imagine 9.


----------



## Darkbloom

Kink said:


> Oh yeah, I guess I never explained what I meant by that. I mean, you don't give the impression of your ~inner core~ being surrounded by fog or anything like that, not to a strong degree anyway, which is kind of how I imagine 9.


Does that mean you don't see @alittlebear as a 9?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Living dead said:


> Does that mean you don't see @_alittlebear_ as a 9?


Oh, I'm not necessarily saying that. It does seem to fit better than 2. Just that she doesn't strike me as as vague as I tend to imagine 9, but... that could be wrong to expect them all to vibe that way, heh.


----------



## o0india0o

I personally don't see @alittlebear as a Type 9.. .but it's just a gut reaction/feeling (it's not fueled by any sort of justification). Exactly what @Kink is talking about. Type 9's _do_ usually feel more hazy. It's just a feeling. Take it for what it's worth.


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> Yeah,just in tritype,I'm sure 9 is my gut fix.
> I tried to come up with reasons why I think I could be type 9 core but it all lead to reasons why I'm not a 9
> 
> All of this:
> - "I don't matter. It's easier that way."
> - "What I think and feel isn't that important. And that's okay. Other people just feel more strongly about things than I do."
> - "It's not okay to be angry or upset because that puts you at odds with others."
> - "It's more important to be nice and peaceful than to be true to myself."
> - "It's not good to show anger because conflict destroys positive connections with others."
> - "If I'm not present and accessible to others, I'm safe."
> - "I don't know what I want, and it's not important anyway."
> - "I'm incapable of knowing what I want."
> - "Knowing what I want and asserting my desires in the world of others takes too much work and will alienate people I need or want to stay connected to."
> - It's easier to go along with what other people want than to go to the trouble of asserting what I want."
> 
> I sometimes feel similar way and it's very sad,the kind of sad that makes you wonder why keep going.
> And that's by biggest argument for 9.
> But in life,when I feel one of those things or something similar,or someone else feels that way about me,I just can't take it and I'd rather create million conflicts and make everyone hate me just for the sake of being important than accept that I don't matter.That's what happened last year when I was at my worst and I can't see it happening with core 9(but maybe,with the right wing and instincts?)


I see nothing against you having a Type 9 gut tie-in. What was it before?
We seem to mesh fine. & I tend to butt-heads occasionally with people who are more reactive (their energy levels are unsettling for me). So, I could see you having a Type 9 in your Tritype.


----------



## o0india0o

Sorry, let me clarify that. I see @alittlebear with a *strong* connection to Type 9 (you definitely have a bit of the vibe going on) - - but I still see it as secondary in your Tritype;; as oppose to your primary core type.

This is obviously a _way_ over simplification;; but which of the underlying motives do you relate to the *most* (and in what order?):



> Type 1
> Underlying motive: Justice, Correctness
> Strives for: Fairness, Improvement
> When healthy: Spontaneous, Joyful
> When stressed: Moody, Impatient
> 
> Type 2
> Underlying motive: Sincerity, Helpfulness
> Strives for: Friendliness, Generosity
> When healthy: Self-Nurturing, Emotionally-Aware
> When stressed: Aggressive, Dominating
> 
> Type 3
> Underlying motive: Advancement, Ambition
> Strives for: High Status, Good Image
> When healthy: Cooperative, Caring
> When stressed: Disengaged, Apathetic
> 
> Type 4
> Underlying motive: Expression, Individuality
> Strives for: Creativity, Uniqueness
> When healthy: Objective, Principled
> When stressed: Clingy, Envious
> 
> Type 5
> Underlying motive: Curiosity, Development
> Strives for: Knowledge, Innovation
> When healthy: Confident, Decisive
> When stressed: Hyperactive, Scattered
> 
> Type 6
> Underlying motive: Security, Trust
> Strives for: Reliability, Commitment
> When healthy: Relaxed, Optimistic
> When stressed: Arrogant, Pessimistic
> 
> Type 7
> Underlying motive: Freedom, Happiness
> Strives for: Versatility, Satisfaction
> When healthy: Focused, Fascinated
> When stressed: Perfectionist, Critical
> 
> Type 8
> Underlying motive: Control, Strength
> Strives for: Decisiveness, Resourcefulness
> When healthy: Warm, Caring
> When stressed: Secretive, Fearful
> 
> Type 9
> Underlying motive: Peace, Stability
> Strives for: Acceptance, Harmony
> When healthy: Productive, Energetic
> When stressed: Anxious, Worried


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> I see nothing against you having a Type 9 gut tie-in. What was it before?
> We seem to mesh fine. & I tend to butt-heads occasionally with people who are more reactive (their energy levels are unsettling for me). So, I could see you having a Type 9 in your Tritype.


Yeah,it definitely is 9 
It was always 9(some suggested 8,but it's not 8)
Still not sure about the wing though,depends on my other wings:bored:
And for @alittlebear,I really can see 9 but mostly I just can't see anything else at this point


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> Sorry, let me clarify that. I see @alittlebear with a *strong* connection to Type 9 (you definitely have a bit of the vibe going on) - - but I still see it as secondary in your Tritype;; as oppose to your primary core type.
> 
> This is obviously a _way_ over simplification;; but which of the underlying motives do you relate to the *most* (and in what order?):


Ok,I'm gonna answer too

I don't think I can relate to any of them fully.1 comes the closest surprisingly,if we ignore justice and fairness.And improvement.Ok,it doesn't fit.
But I always related to 1's line to 4 and 7,it seems to describe me but I'm not sure if in 1-ish way necessarily.


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> Ok,I'm gonna answer too
> 
> I don't think I can relate to any of them fully.1 comes the closest surprisingly,if we ignore justice and fairness.


(rofl) "Justice and Fairness" was the underlying motivation for Type 1! :laughing:
That's only like the most important part!

Which "underlying motivation" do you relate to the most? Which do you relate to as your underlying motivation in your own life?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

o0india0o said:


> Sorry, let me clarify that. I see @_alittlebear_ with a *strong* connection to Type 9 (you definitely have a bit of the vibe going on) - - but I still see it as secondary in your Tritype;; as oppose to your primary core type.


What do you think her core type is? I don't remember if you've already mentioned it.


----------



## Darkbloom

@o0india0o,I don't care about being just and morally "correct",not at all about being sincere,advanced maybe in some way,4 one seems to fit but I'm not creative and uniqueness is dumb(at least the first thing I think of when I hear "uniqueness").And I don't really relate to individuality,more like being really special and irreplaceable.
Curiosity also not
Trust is not something I think about much
7-no
8-kiiinda,wouldn't use those words
9-no way


----------



## Darkbloom

Kink said:


> What do you think her core type is? I don't remember if you've already mentioned it.


2 I think


sorry for me answering,just making this quicker XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> Sorry, let me clarify that. I see @alittlebear with a *strong* connection to Type 9 (you definitely have a bit of the vibe going on) - - but I still see it as secondary in your Tritype;; as oppose to your primary core type.
> 
> This is obviously a _way_ over simplification;; but which of the underlying motives do you relate to the *most* (and in what order?):


Alrighty, let's go  

I don't relate to Type 1 at all! I don't give a crap about justice. Justice is stupid. Mercy is my style. Fairness is nice because fairness is usually associated with equality, but I'm not a die-hard when it comes to fairness. It's cool, but. As long as everyone is happy and taken care of feeling well does it matter? Not even sure how one would decide if something was fair or not, hmm. 

I relate a lot to Type 2... Except their "When stressed" part. I suppose I could be aggressive and dominating... But then again, I'm never dominating... Ever. I can be aggressive, but not very openly. Everything else I agree with though, just not that. 

I relate a little to 3, but not that much. I may relate to 3 on a shallow level; I want those things, but not very deeply. 

Sort of relate to 4, because who doesn't want to be unique? But again, it's shallow. I would rather be helpful than individualistic. I would love to be just someone who helps others, who makes a positive difference in someone's life, than be "that girl who is so unique I will always remember her..." No. I want to have helped others more than anything. Also... At my best, I'm not principled. At my best, I am helpful and accepting and loving and giving and fitting within society. Can't imagine what I would be like as a super principled person when healthy...

I can be hyperactive and scattered when stressed like Type 5! And I am a very curious person, I do strive for knowledge... But yet again, this is a shallow relation. I want something more deeply than I want these things. 

Don't relate to 6 much at all. I like security, I guess? But not that much. I'm not very arrogant or pessimistic when stressed, I don't think. Pessimistic, yes, but I am seldom too arrogant. 

I relate to 7 a bit. I love to be happy. I _love_ to be happy. It's selfish and I hate it, but it's true. Of course I usually reach happiness by helping people, and that's good, but I also reach it by relaxing and reading and listening to music and studying personality types, which of course is selfish and makes me feel quite guilty because I'm not giving of myself. And again, this is a shallow relation. This isn't what I primarily seek. (I am perfectionist and critical when stressed, though. Very perfectionist and critical when stressed.)

I can actually relate with these points about 8 some. I like to be "strong," at the core of my being. I am very warm and carig when healthy, and can be sometimes secretive and fearful when stressed. 

As for type 9... I strive for peace and security, yes, but not sure if I do it as my core thing. That's one of the few things about 9 I don't relate to as much. I _love_ acceptance and harmony though, and I am extremely extremely extremely anxious and worried when stressed. (Then again, I have two anxiety disorders, so I mean.)


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> @o0india0o,I don't care about being just and morally "correct",not at all about being sincere,advanced maybe in some way,4 one seems to fit but I'm not creative and uniqueness is dumb(at least the first thing I think of when I hear "uniqueness").And I don't really relate to individuality,more like being really special and irreplaceable.
> Curiosity also not
> Trust is not something I think about much
> 7-no
> 8-kiiinda,wouldn't use those words
> 9-no way


So.. . basically, you relate to none of those life motivations? It sounded like you _kind of_ related to Type 4?


----------



## o0india0o

@Living dead

Sorry, I didn't see your post about Type 2 being the one you relate to the most. That's really interesting! 

This is a complete side note, but your primary motivation in life is to be helpful? (Or, well, I have to go re-look at what it said)


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> So.. . basically, you relate to none of those life motivations? It sounded like you _kind of_ related to Type 4?


Yeah,it's _always_ 4 when it comes to things like this but in the end I see posts of true 4s like @Animal for example and I'm like WTF this is not me at all.Now,I know that comparisons don't always work but when the core of it is explained I realize it's more likely I relate to it on a more superficial level,especially since I relate to 4 the most when I'm at my worst.


----------



## o0india0o

@Kink

I still think she's 2w1 9w1 6w(?)

Perhaps?



> "269 Good Samaritan Archetype
> 
> 269, 692, 926 - The Good Samaritan: You like people and want to find ways to engage with them. Your sense of pride comes from getting along with others and being of assistance. You are known for your easygoing and friendly disposition. Your life mission is to identify what is problematic and needed, then find peaceful solutions for those concerned. A true trouble-shooter, you are happiest when you can help others in conflict bridge their differences. Your blind spot is that you can be so focused on being a peacemaker, tending to the needs of otehrs and getting along with them that you can fail to voice your own truth and act in a timely manner. You are overly identified with being a 'nice' person. Your growing edge is to recognize that being nice does not always create peace and that being passive does not mean that you are nice. True charity comes from listening to your heart and acting in accordance with what is needed without strings attached even if it causes conflict."


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> @Living dead
> 
> Sorry, I didn't see your post about Type 2 being the one you relate to the most. That's really interesting!
> 
> This is a complete side note, but your primary motivation in life is to be helpful? (Or, well, I have to go re-look at what it said)


No but they say _it's not what 2 is about_
No idea whether that's true though 

What post?


----------



## o0india0o

> "but in the end I see posts of true 4s like @Animal for example and I'm like WTF this is not me at all."


This made me (lol). :laughing:


----------



## o0india0o

@Living dead

This post! Where I wrote out all the underlying motivations for the different Enneagram types. I looked back, and it appears that Type 2's life motivations are:



> Type 2
> Underlying motive: Sincerity, Helpfulness


& I was just interested in hearing about how you related to that. Solely out of curiosity and learning more about you as a person, really.


----------



## o0india0o

@alittlebear 

But if you had to choose, which underlying motivation most closely fits with your underlying motivation for your own life?


----------



## o0india0o

It's really interesting, because I cannot imagine wanting anything _but_ Happiness and Freedom from life, first and foremost*!*

So, half of this is just my curiosity.


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> @Living dead
> 
> This post! Where I wrote out all the underlying motivations for the different Enneagram types. I looked back, and it appears that Type 2's life motivations are:
> 
> 
> 
> & I was just interested in hearing about how you related to that. Solely out of curiosity and learning more about you as a person, really.


I don't get why someone would value sincerity,really wanna be sincere?
But maybe I'm misunderstanding it.
Like,I noticed I wanna be able to be sincere.Like,I sometimes I get myself in a less than perfect situation because I just get this need to express _myself_ because that's the best thing I can express,every lie I tell is just selling myself short but people don't understand that and that's why I'm not sincere?But I don't usually think about that at all,I'm proud of being a good liar XD
But as a child I was much more sincere.I remember being angry at my parents for making me do things and be things opposite of "my way" because my way felt perfect and it was almost embarrassing to act differently but of course,I let go of it to a degree as I got older

As for helpfulness,I hate helping with things like chores,makes me feel like Cinderella(before the ball) XD
Otherwise I like helping people,with big things.I'd literally die for people who deserve it.


----------



## Sweetish

o0india0o said:


> but which of the underlying motives do you relate to the *most* (and in what order?):


I just want to say thanks for that list.



lycanized said:


> I'm curious as I see a lot of 5s writing about their trust in others...How does it differ from the issues a 6/6w5 might have in your eyes?


I'm not sure...

Perhaps, I could simplify it by saying that a type 5 is inherently a rogue, someone of self-reliance.

[I'm now going to complicate it, ISFJ style]

Tendency toward detachment defines a type 5, whereas a type 6 readily seeks to be a part of something, to have a support network, a community. The rogue-ish type 5 is less often going to invest emotion in others, invest trust, and will test loyalty rather than naively assume it to be steadfast. A type 6 has a holy idea regarding Faith, which requires a sort of release of doubt, letting go of misgivings, believing in something that a relationship or a community embodies, so that even if betrayed the type 6 won't lose its core faith. I've learned that there are times when I should only have faith in myself.

I don't want to waste my energy or my emotion, those are things I conserve, I hoard them, I dole them out to people I think deserve them for whatever my reasons are. A person who proves to not be transparent in their motives, agenda, character goes completely against my holy idea, my wanting to see everything as exactly what it is, my inclination to know it.

There's a kind of disgust that permeates me when a person intentionally lies, intentionally deceives, is fraudulent, is basically a conman. That person uses illusions, half-truths, white lies, omitted information to distract others from the truth. That person is obfuscating reality. Their very existence as a facade is a distortion of reality. Their identity survives on falsehood, as what people don't know feeds right into the conman's plans, which are often self-serving. The conman doesn't care to know anything that doesn't serve their agenda. The people that conman interacts with haven't been given a choice based on transparency- they've been used, commonly in a one-way exchange in which they get nothing. Their lack of knowledge has been taken advantage of.

That disgusts me. It further disgusts me that they exploit people's trust. They want you to know only what they want you to know, no more and no less. It's a form of control.

(Quick side note: A type 6 has an interesting relation to authorities. I tend to assume as a 5 that anyone deemed an authority needs to first survive some thorough scrutiny- similar to how crucial it is that a scientific experiment's results be replicable, otherwise the conclusions reached can't be conclusive.)

This notion of knowing, of transparency, relates strongly to the holy idea of truth -the enneagram type 8 holy idea- which works right in with type 5 integrating to type 8 (a type 8 fear being that of being controlled).

A type 5 risks nothing when distrusting everyone, or so it would seem initially. There are things to be gained by trusting others, yes, but a type 5 is going to utilize every resource possible before investing that emotion into another human being, a human being who has their own designs on life, their own motives, their own self-serving modus operandi. This is why self-reliant type 5 extending trust to another human being isn't to be taken lightly. A type 5 likely needed or wanted nothing much at all from the person whom they invested emotion in, in fact likely expected very little or nothing to come of it because that's what life teaches.

Some could interject right now that the type 5 did want something- honesty. Transparency. Authenticity of character. At the least, a total fraud should lie so convincingly that no one figures out that they're full of shit- otherwise, the person is simply incompetent. They couldn't even live up to maintaining consistency in their own bullshit, because let's face it, they usually don't absolutely have to because most people are far too gullible. It's so convenient for them to pretend- I'd dare say that they're content to. They appear to be quite happy living a lie, and even appear quite happy to be lying to their own self; that sickens me.

I see no personal development in stagnating in such a way. Willingly exploiting other people's weakness(es) doesn't look like any kind of strength to me, and as an ISFJ I see it as disrespectful, dishonorable. I see it as low.

That person only sees their self as they want to see their self. They project what they want others to see, for whatever their reasons are.

In a world filled with ego, I'm much more content to avoid people as often as possible. It's easier to be cynical, to be like Dr. House and his "Everyone lies." philosophy. In a way, it's safer to just assume that everyone is full of shit to some degree, and strictly limit loyalties to only the most genuine of individuals, to those who have a proven track record of not abusing that power they have in what they know.


----------



## o0india0o

@Sweetish

You're welcome!
I got the list from here:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/2704-enneagram-type-underlying-motives.html

Glad you appreciated it!


----------



## o0india0o

@Living dead

I honestly relate to wanting to be sincere. I make it a policy to _never_ lie;; I wouldn't judge you for being proud of your lying paralysis though, Ha ha.

It gives me new push to consider Type 2 in my Tritype. Because -honestly- I feel like I relate to wanting to be helpful and sincere, more than I do wanting to be an individual or unique. I *am* unique without trying;; it's not something I try for. I actually _try_ to be sincere and helpful.


----------



## Darkbloom

But can someone please explain to me that 2 sincerity? :laughing:


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> But can someone please explain to me that 2 sincerity? :laughing:


I can't, Ha Ha. I took it at face value.


----------



## o0india0o

@Living dead

You know who likes to lie though? Type 3's. :tongue:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@o0india0o
You do strike me as a 2-fixer. Like yeah, you seem to have this helpful edge. Although there's more to type 2 than just that, as a fix I think it works...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Living dead I want to be sincere because... I want my care to be genuine. There are those people who do nice things for people, but they don't care. They don't really want to help those they help, they just... do it. They don't care if they're hurt, but they want to have the appearance that they care that the child is hurt because They Are A Good And Nice And Selfless Person. Even though they're not I don't want to be one of those people. When I care for someone, help them - and I often care for people, and help them - I want to mean it. I want to be helping them for altruistic reasons. I want to be truly involved with them and want the best for them (and by them, I mean... everyone). And I want them to know that they are truly loved, that yes this woman might not be important but if she can see my good qualities, if this stranger can love me, I deserve to be loved. 

That's what I want to give people. And that's why sincerity is important to me. I want my love for others to be genuine so it can help people more fully than it would if my love was not.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Kink said:


> @o0india0o
> You do strike me as a 2-fixer. Like yeah, you seem to have this helpful edge. Although there's more to type 2 than just that, as a fix I think it works...


Yes, this precisely. I wanted to say that when I responded to your thread, but as someone who you saw as a 2 at the time I did not want to type you with 2 just because I saw you as a genuinely good person.


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> @Living dead
> 
> You know who likes to lie though? Type 3's. :tongue:


Do they _like_ to lie though? 

Honestly,my fondness for it feels more 7-ish or 8-ish in a way,although I'm neither:laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> @Living dead
> 
> I honestly relate to wanting to be sincere. I make it a policy to _never_ lie;; I wouldn't judge you for being proud of your lying paralysis though, Ha ha.
> 
> It gives me new push to consider Type 2 in my Tritype. Because -honestly- I feel like I relate to wanting to be helpful and sincere, more than I do wanting to be an individual or unique. I *am* unique without trying;; it's not something I try for. I actually _try_ to be sincere and helpful.


Oh, but I do want to clarify that I don't care about lying. I lie a lot. I lie to make people feel better all the time. If I couldn't lie, my life would... be terrible. So terrible. White lies are like, my breath. Sadly enough. 

I just want to be sincere in the sense that I want to be genuine in my care for others so that I may help them.


----------



## Darkbloom

I agree with 2 fix for @o0india0o,as she probably remembers


----------



## o0india0o

@Living dead

I didn't realize Type 7's and 8's were known for lying?

I think Type 3's enjoy getting away with falsification the most. Not saying you're a Type 3 - - just ribbing you. You don't seem to care about achievement or advancement. *shrug*

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I have/had a hard time considering Type 2 for a heart fix because I've known some horrible, unhealthy, Type 2's. & it *really* rubbed me the wrong way. I just resist the idea of any part of me being similar to any part of that.. . the idea is _that_ repulsive, (lol).

But it is something I will dance around some more;;
Because the more I read and interact with the Type 4 forum, the more I have your reaction Living Dead "WTF". :laughing:

Though, I don't know how all this differs when in relation to a fix as oppose to a core type.
& Both the 714 AND the 712 sound similar to me.. .


----------



## o0india0o

@Living dead

I remember;; I think I tagged you in that post?
You were the first and only person to tell me that, so that's why I mentioned you. 

(And now other people are saying things similar, ha ha)


----------



## o0india0o

alittlebear said:


> Oh, but I do want to clarify that I don't care about lying. I lie a lot. I lie to make people feel better all the time. If I couldn't lie, my life would... be terrible. So terrible. White lies are like, my breath. Sadly enough.
> 
> I just want to be sincere in the sense that I want to be genuine in my care for others so that I may help them.


Ah. Well perhaps this is my _*strong*_ Type 1 fix (I'm certain about that one) - - I care a whole awful lot about justice, correctness, fairness, and honesty. My Type 1 father made it a point to never lie, and I always admired that;; so I strove to do the same. 

Oddly enough, the arrow connection I most strongly connect and associate with is Type 5 (You would think it would be Type 1;; since that's my gut fix *shrug*).


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> @Living dead
> 
> I didn't realize Type 7's and 8's were known for lying?
> 
> I think Type 3's enjoy getting away with falsification the most. Not saying you're a Type 3 - - just ribbing you. You don't seem to care about achievement or advancement. *shrug*
> 
> I think I have/had a hard time considering Type 2 for a heart fix because I've known some horrible, unhealthy, Type 2's. & it *really* rubbed me the wrong way. I just resist the idea of any part of me being similar to any part of that.. . the idea is that repulsive, (lol).
> 
> But it is something I will dance around some more;;
> Because the more I read and interact with the Type 4 forum, the more I have your reaction Living Dead "WTF". :laughing:
> 
> Though, I don't know how all this differs when in relation to a fix as oppose to a core type.
> & Both the 714 AND the 712 sound similar to me.. .


7 could do it for fun
8 could do it for you know,8 reasons,but it could also be 2-ish kind of 8 reasons XD

I honestly see 3 as not enough feeling to like or dislike _anything_ XD
They just go and do whatever will help them achieve and when they are too messed up to do that they just go around doing 9 things.
But maybe it's the stereotypes
I think I don't identify with achievements enough to be a 3 though,because frankly I have no actual achievements XD

Haven't you told me that not all 2s are the same?


----------



## Darkbloom

Btw I think 3s like people being proud of them?Or am I wrong?

Anyway,I hate being told "I'm proud of you",it has that "I own you" undertone lol
I guess it really depends,I could imagine liking it in some situations but I know the person who's proud of me most often is my father and I don't like the feeling of it,especially for things he's proud of,they are not personal at all.I realize it's a good thing he's proud of things about me(mostly education related ) but it doesn't do anything for me emotionally.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Living dead
Could be yeah. Like deep down they're driven by the need to make mommy or daddy proud (to put it simplistically :tongue

And now I'm reminded of this song again.


----------



## o0india0o

Guys. I just realized that if I have a type 2 for a heart fix, that makes my tritype:

7w6 1w2 2w1

That's pretty intense! (lol)
That's an awful lot of Type 1 and Type 2 in me.. .


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> @Kink
> 
> I still think she's 2w1 9w1 6w(?)
> 
> Perhaps?


Oh hey, was this post about me?

I still think the 271 tritype description fits me like crazy. Then again, that's the first one I was suggested as. 

I see that description you gave and think immediately of my best friend, my room mate. She's that exactly. I almost shared it with her because it's _so_ her, but then I didn't because I remembered she hates personality stuff, unless like she tests as it herself and she just sees the description in passing. She doesn't put stock in this stuff. 

But it's so her. In like, every way. 

I'm not *quite* that, I don't think. My sense of pride isn't always from getting along with others... I like that,but I also like being successful, strong, "liked," engaging, intense, smart, admirable. (It sucks, but if we're being truthful.) I relate to what it says at the end because that does seem like a lesson I need to learn (sometimes -- other times I can be ridiculously argumentative) and also I shirked at the statement it says I need to learn, so that means I probably do need to learn that. ;D (I mean, listen to my heart.lol what the heck does that even mean? Ha. That would upset too many people!)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also @o0india0o I do relate to the core motivation of 2, if you must know *friendly * but like nothin else about 2 fits for me? Helping people is my core desire but I'm not even a slightly typical 2.


----------



## o0india0o

alittlebear said:


> Also @o0india0o I do relate to the core motivation of 2, if you must know *friendly * but like nothin else about 2 fits for me? Helping people is my core desire but I'm not even a slightly typical 2.


Well, what about top 3?

& also, who else would make it their life motivation to help people, besides a type 2? XD
I guess why you want to be helpful (and the motivation behind it) could be helpful in that case.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in lieu of this, I don't see 7w8 as a likely typing for you. maybe 6w7 or 7w6 with a strong 6 wing. honestly, I've never seen a 7w8 or 8w7 really care in any capacity about being a "reject". they might be aware that _other people_ view them as a black sheep, scourge, outcast, etc, but this generally just amuses them. @Vajra was telling me once about how, growing up in India, she was made fun of for having darker skin and she was like "lol! they're stupid. I know I'm beautiful" (7w8 and 8w7 are double "give zero fucks" types). obviously, any type can feel a sense of pain and rejection when hurt or rejected by someone close to them, but a sense of existential rejection, outcast etc is very un-8/7w8.
> imo, your type is something along the lines of 6w7/7w6>1w9>4w? So/Sx (though you are hardly a textbook example of any subtype of either 7 or 6.)


A) Thank you very much for seeing me and taking the time to write that; I really appreciate it. But
B) I do not type as 7w8
C) You are deadly wrong re: rejection. Every human being _alive_ can feel the burning sting of rejection, of people close to them as well as their peers. That's called being human. There are some types, in fact, that are even specifically guarded against it (rejection types come to mind; most notably type 2). To define oneself in relation to the group (i.e., outcast) is most associated with social instinct, but is a possibility for any type. 

Fours and Eights are both notable for a shared sense of being an outsider--Fours tend to define themselves by how unlike others they are, which inherently results in feelings of alienation and marginalization. Eights will _say_ they don't give a fuck, but let's not forget the reason they hardened themselves was specifically against some sort of abuse. If this is rejection of peers, so be it. Sevens, too, can have a sense of being somehow "cut off" from the flow of life around them--so I don't find it out of the question for _any_ type to be aware of feelings of rejection and being an outcast.

Keep in mind, I _know_ my type and tritype, I know all the ways it's worked against me, and so what you say seems, with all due respect to your ideas, a little irrelevant. You shouldn't let one buzzword rule out an entire type or tritype. But I think if you can break down these mental strictures about what certain types "do", you'll find your own type too. 

(lol, not intended condescendingly, serious advice)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@o0india0o going by triads, I relate to 2 - 7 - 9 motivations, in that order. 

As for why I want to help people... I want to... I don't know. Helping people is instinctual to me on one hand, like I see people and I just want to bring them happiness and ease and love and help them see and appreciate what beautiful people they are, and make them smile, and just bring happiness to others. Not sure like... how else I could feel about people than to want to assist them and bring them happiness and good things. 

But I guess on a less immediate level, zooming out of my weird natural love for people, I want to help people because it's like proving my place in the world. 

I told myself growing up that if I significantly helped someone in life, I would earn my place in the world and belong here. Because I would have had a positive impact on it, I improved someone's life. In sixth grade I did that -- I made best friends with two outcasted boys. I saved one from suicide that year (and did it again in 12th grade... He's doing better now. I think.), and just in general taught them what friendship was while they did the same for me. 

After that, I think I moved onto bigger things. Not so personal. I still naturally helped people at any chance I got - it made me quite well renowned at my mother's school, and her boss says to this day that none of her helpers will ever measure up to me - but... Now it's bigger. I still get a happy thrill from helping people, anyone... But now I want to help people big scale. Leave a good mark on the world. Of course I'm fine volunteering directly and really helping people hand to hand, that's so so so wonderful... So wonderful... But now I want to inspire people. I want to get across my understanding of the world in the hopes gay it helps others appreciate what a beautiful world we have and how important it is to be kind to people. That no matter how dark it is, love is still present and it's one of the only things we can truly count on, always. 

Hmm. Not sure if that answers your question, but there my attempt at an answer is. As far as how I try to help people ^^


----------



## galactic collision

@o0india0o I can see you as 2-fixed. You're very "light" for a 4-fixer. Just a thought - but I'm not great at typing people (enneagram-wise, at least), so take this with a grain of salt.


----------



## galactic collision

Putting it out there onto this thread again, since it's been a while, that if anyone thinks I'm mistyped, to pipe up. I'm pretty confident that I'm typed correctly (7w6 1w2 4w3 so/sx, if you're on mobile and can't see my signature) but I like it when other people talk about me, so if you have something to say, please say it. :tongue:


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> Guys. I just realized that if I have a type 2 for a heart fix, that makes my tritype:
> 
> 7w6 1w2 2w1
> 
> That's pretty intense! (lol)
> That's an awful lot of Type 1 and Type 2 in me.. .


Why not throw in 9 somewhere,at least as a wing? 

Anyway @alittlebear talks so much about the _concept_ of love,about _everyone_ being connected through it,about _everyone_ having love in them.Does that not sound _not_ 2?
I guess it could be just her image or whatever(but doesn't everyone care about "image" in some way?) but I really feel she's genuine about it,as genuine as anyone can possibly be.

Also,"finding my place in the world" is another recurring theme that should be looked into, I'm sure many types can feel like that at least on some level but is it really 2?(I'm taking how bear says it into account as well)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@alittlebear 
Yeah I'm not really sure what type I see you as most at the moment. I looked at your typing thread some time ago, and well, you certainly do seem pretty superego. Aside from that I couldn't quite decide though.

Also, I might as well mention, there are other reasons I can be self-deprecating too, besides the fact that I can have trouble ~seeing the good in myself~ Like at the same time, I feel I _can _be narcissistic too, but it's "safer" to... well, acting like a typical 9, all humble and shit, because if you act "too confident" you have some not so pleasant things coming for you, heh. Better to shame myself before someone else can, basically.

Also some sexual stuff.


----------



## Darkbloom

Kipposhi said:


> A) Thank you very much for seeing me and taking the time to write that; I really appreciate it. But
> B) I do not type as 7w8
> C) You are deadly wrong re: rejection. Every human being _alive_ can feel the burning sting of rejection, of people close to them as well as their peers. That's called being human. There are some ztypes, in fact, that are even specifically guarded against it (rejection types come to mind; most notably type 2). To define oneself in relation to the group (i.e., outcast) is most associated with social instinct, but is a possibility for any type.
> 
> Fours and Eights are both notable for a shared sense of being an outsider--Fours tend to define themselves by how unlike others they are, which inherently results in feelings of alienation and marginalization. Eights will _say_ they don't give a fuck, but let's not forget the reason they hardened themselves was specifically against some sort of abuse. If this is rejection of peers, so be it. Sevens, too, can have a sense of being somehow "cut off" from the flow of life around them--so I don't find it out of the question for _any_ type to be aware of feelings of rejection and being an outcast.
> 
> Keep in mind, I _know_ my type and tritype, I know all the ways it's worked against me, and so what you say seems, with all due respect to your ideas, a little irrelevant. You shouldn't let one buzzword rule out an entire type or tritype. But I think if you can break down these mental strictures about what certain types "do", you'll find your own type too.
> 
> (lol, not intended condescendingly, serious advice)


Always wondered about that "outcast" thing.

I never identified with being an outcast,even though my life was very weird and the fact is that I was more of an outcast than I thought I was.But I never took those things as my reality and my actual qualities.I never really felt different,at least not in a bad way even though now I see that in so many ways it was bad.
And last year,and year before that,I was just feeling so awful all the time,things had been happening and it was really the first time I accepted everything "Your childhood was not how you remember it,you weren't brought up how you wanted to be brought up,things you want and think you should have are basically impossible because your life was messed with right from the start(and yes,some other people were lucky enough to actually have everything you just wanna have).You live where you live,your parents are the only ones you could ever have,you don't do things because you choose to but because you can't do differently,you don't get to make _any_ decisions,let alone the ones that were already made for you" and I just embraced all of it,in a way I'd consider 4-ish but still trying to make it somehow positive


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Why not throw in 9 somewhere,at least as a wing?
> 
> Anyway @alittlebear talks so much about the _concept_ of love,about _everyone_ being connected through it,about _everyone_ having love in them.Does that not sound _not_ 2?
> I guess it could be just her image or whatever(but doesn't everyone care about "image" in some way?) but I really feel she's genuine about it,as genuine as anyone can possibly be.
> 
> Also,"finding my place in the world" is another recurring theme that should be looked into, I'm sure many types can feel like that at least on some level but is it really 2?(I'm taking how bear says it into account as well)


I thought the love thing would be 9? Since love is the heavenly ideal or something of type 9?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Kink said:


> @alittlebear
> Yeah I'm not really sure what type I see you as most at the moment. I looked at your typing thread some time ago, and well, you certainly do seem pretty superego. Aside from that I couldn't quite decide though.
> 
> Also, I might as well mention, there are other reasons I can be self-deprecating too, besides the fact that I can have trouble ~seeing the good in myself~ Like at the same time, I feel I _can _be narcissistic too, but it's "safer" to... well, acting like a typical 9, all humble and shit, because if you act "too confident" you have some not so pleasant things coming for you, heh. Better to shame myself before someone else can, basically.
> 
> Also some sexual stuff.


Thank you for the input  It is appreciated. 

If I may ask, what does "superego" mean in relation to Enneagram? I missed that Enneagram lesson. 

And are you saying that I come across as having SX, or are you referring to yourself? 

I must add that I can relate to your middle paragraph here. I self deprecate largely because of that. You think you hate me? Well good in give already heard all of your reasons from myself. Someday I hope to not be like this, but at the moment this is my reality.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I thought the love thing would be 9? Since love is the heavenly ideal or something of type 9?


Well yeah,I agree.

It's just that everyone's still associating those things with 2,because of all the love and helping people.


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> Well yeah,I agree.
> 
> It's just that everyone's still associating those things with 2,because of all the love and helping people.


The Type 9's I know don't talk like that. .. they are not as "active" about their ideas about love (lol). The focus is 2-ish (imo).
Plus, most Type 9's tend to not even be able to communicate their own agendas like you just have. They can talk fluently about intellectual topics, art, etc. ..but you don't get as much out of them when it comes to their own hearts and understanding a sort-of "motivation".


----------



## o0india0o

Kink said:


> @alittlebear
> Yeah I'm not really sure what type I see you as most at the moment. I looked at your typing thread some time ago, and well, you certainly do seem pretty superego. Aside from that I couldn't quite decide though.
> 
> *Also, I might as well mention, there are other reasons I can be self-deprecating too, besides the fact that I can have trouble ~seeing the good in myself~ Like at the same time, I feel I can be narcissistic too, but it's "safer" to... well, acting like a typical 9, all humble and shit, because if you act "too confident" you have some not so pleasant things coming for you, heh. Better to shame myself before someone else can, basically.*
> 
> Also some sexual stuff.


The part that I bolded above seems more Type 6-ish to me?
You're like, making a preemptive strike about protecting yourself & safety. Seems rather security oriented.


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> The Type 9's I know don't talk like that. .. they are not as "active" about their ideas about love (lol). The focus is 2-ish (imo).
> Plus, most Type 9's tend to not even be able to communicate their own agendas like you just have. They can talk fluently about intellectual topics, art, etc. ..but you don't get as much out of them when it comes to their own hearts and understanding a sort-of "motivation".


I do agree with that,I can't imagine 9s I know talking like that but I don't know,2 just doesn't feel right either.

Is there a third option?


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> Why not throw in 9 somewhere,at least as a wing?


Ha Ha Ha! I cannot just "throw in" a 9-wing! :tongue:
Then I might as well just throw in a 3-wing for good measure. (lol)

My father is a 1w9 - - and I'm not that! I see the biggest difference between 1w9 vs. 1w2 as the causes they champion. 1w9 tend to champion causes with little human content (they tend to be more abstract and philosophical). 1w2 tend to champion causes _with_ human content. I am definitely the latter.

As for changing my gut fix from Type 1 to Type 9 - - I relate *strongly* to Type 1. On the list of underlying motives, Type 1 was the "underlying motive" I related to second. Also, I'm fairly "reactive" - - it's easy to get my goat and yank my chain (so-to-speak). XD

Additionally, I read through _all_ the Tritype descriptions last night (it took a lot of Focus Power!);; the only tritype descriptions I relate to are 714 and 712 (barely, barely, barely --in a world, far, far away-- did I relate to the 614 and 612). The common denominator in the descriptions I related to was the "1" and the "7". 

AND also, any tritype description with Type 9 in it was.. .too peaceful (that ain't me - - I can be a bit emotionally high-strung and reactive);; the descriptions were too light and etherial. The tritypes that included Type 8 in them were closer than Type 9 (though not by much).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I definitely know my motivation, for the record. I want to make the world a better place. I want to help people. I want to do that physically by volunteering, but I also want to work to make individuals who are put down by society and societal structures (individuals who are oppressed for race, gender, religion, sexuality, disability, wealth, and etc.) less put down by society. And beyond that of course, I want to help people understand love, feel loved, and act in love in their own lives. 

Perhaps that's not a 9 thing? I don't know. But it's definitely my thing.


----------



## Golden Rose

o0india0o said:


> The part that I bolded above seems more Type 6-ish to me?
> You're like, making a preemptive strike about protecting yourself & safety. Seems rather security oriented.


If neither 9 or 2 fit completely, there is phobic 6w7. @alittlebear



> Healthy phobic Sixes are steady, loyal and idealistic. They are usually committed to a tradition, group or cause but in a voluntary, dedicated way. To that end, they are dependable, hard working and unusually professional. They keep their promises, are faithful in marriage and make honorable, protective friends. Healthy phobic Sixes are gracious and diplomatic. They put people at ease and are often well-liked for their discretion and manners. They can be very funny and have vivid imaginations. Healthy phobic Sixes handle power with integrity and are fair-minded leaders partly because they sympathize with underdogs. They’re not pushovers and will take unpopular stands when necessary. Generally, though, they work toward solutions that benefit all parties and allow everyone to win. When phobic Sixes are less healthy, caught in what I’ll be calling a trance, they can become blind conformists even as they avoid personal responsibility. They subtly shift their power onto outside authorities and begin to romanticize those who seem surer of themselves. The Six may strike an unconscious bargain with a hero, a bargain that says, “I’ll do what you want me to do if you’ll protect me from danger.” The Six then hides under an imaginary umbrella, pledging fealty to this outside force, growing addicted to the security that this arrangement seems to offer.
> 
> The Six’s positive capacity for loyalty is double-edged – when less healthy, Sixes can be loyal to the wrong people or simply codependent. When they give away their power, phobic Sixes start to worry and feel helpless. To compensate, they become cautious and wary, trying to anticipate the motives of others. They may also try to check their own aggressive or powerful impulses, so that they don’t deviate from the submissive role they have agreed to play. They could have trouble finishing what they start, worrying about who will criticize the finished product. They may seem friendly, but can be passiveaggressive or give off contradictory messages as their resentment breaks through.
> 
> Entranced phobic Sixes can be skeptical, tense and indecisive, hesitantly stutter-stepping their way through life. “He self-flagellates,” explains the friend of a Six. “He has tremendous energy, but he doesn’t like uncertainty. So he’s like a bouncing ball, up and down – he gives himself a lot of angst.” When deeply unhealthy, phobic Sixes become addled with fear and openly dependent upon others. They might surrender their life to work, becoming an abject slave to a job or a boss. They could act like weak, powerless losers and yet demand coddling from friends, tyrannizing others with their helplessness, placing strict, narrow limits on what they will risk or try. Deeply entranced phobic Sixes avoid all risks, terrorize themselves and may persecute others who deviate from norms. They can also be chronically cowardly, litigious, petty, intolerant and dogmatic.


----------



## o0india0o

justforthespark said:


> @o0india0o I can see you as 2-fixed. You're very "light" for a 4-fixer. Just a thought - but I'm not great at typing people (enneagram-wise, at least), so take this with a grain of salt.


Thanks for the feedback!

Can you believe there was a time when I _thought_ I was a Type 4? XD
(lol)

I thought I related to Type 4 quite a bit, but I'm finding that my relation to the Enneagram type might have all been coincidental. For example, I tend to feel like an "outcast" or outsider.. .but it turns out - - in my case - - it's because I _am_ an outsider much of the time. Type 4's seem to _*try*_ to make themselves outsiders to be special and unique. Whereas I don't _want_ to be an outsider.. .it kind of just happens.

In my dysfunctional home as a child;; I use to cope by writing a lot of dark poetry. & I'm also the type of person to "gut out" my emotions, and need to analyze them and understand them (much like I *think* Type 4 does). I'm not sure what this stems from? Being a SX 7, or perhaps my super *strong* line of connection (for both good and bad) to Type 5? I think the depression was just due to my home life sucking - - not necessarily to a pervasive, underlying pattern in my personality.

I also think the internet can distort things a _little_. I'm not hyper or happy all the time in real life (I can be quite sedate at times;; at least imo). I have that SX "on" "off" quality;; I feed off the energy around me, much like comedian's do when performing a show (if the audience isn't feeling it - - I'm not able to be as funny). So, much of my life is subject to whether the situation or people, place, or thing **energizes** me. I tend to be "blah" or "WEeEee!" 

But I have quite a serious, contemplative side to me (though _never_ dark - - I am not a fan of *dark*).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Hotaru thank you for the suggestion! 

6 has been suggested before, as has 7. I don't think I have a 6 fix even though, I think I am 7 with 6-seeming things that come out due to my trauma and other anxiety disorder. 

One thing that keeps me from 6 is that I am not loyal. Loyalty is not a value I care about, I guess. If you are in the wrong, if you are hurting people, I will not side with you. I will side with those who are being hurt. (Which I guess is a pretty 6 thing to say, but eh.) my loyalty is... to humanity, I will try to do my best for any human being (ideally, of course I do not do this because I am a flawed individual) and it is important to me that I am not biased in favor of any person, that I see people as people as people without regard to any groups they belong to or how "worthy" they are so I can help them and love them fully. 

I am cowardly. I am idealistic. I am steady in some ways, not so steady in others. I am _extremely_ submissive both by nature and by choice. 

I don't think I've really suffered from being loyal to unhealthy people though. I'm not going to stand by if someone is hurting others and say that's okay. Like, I'm never going to do that. It's gotten me in trouble with my friends my entire life, because in that way I am not loyal to those who I should be loyal to, but... again, in my eyes, loyal to humanity. 

I also just don't identify with the 6 motivation. Of course, few people who identify as 6 do immediately see their motivations as their motivations, but... I want a lot more than just stability. I want happiness. I want love. I want to help. I want to change the world. I want to reach out to others. I want a lot of things, but "stability" has never been one of those things that I have identified.


----------



## o0india0o

@Hotaru

Oh! Good point!

Because, I agree @Living dead - - I don't feel like Type 2 _*completely*_ fits @alittlebear .. .but in my opinion, Type 9 fits even less.

alittlebear, I feel like your motivations fit Type 2 - - but I don't really see much of the negative side of Type 2 in you. I cannot imagine you being controlling, or manipulative. But maybe I just don't know you?

But I was a fan of putting Type 6 in the tritype to begin with (I --personally-- see _a lot_ of phobic Type 6 in you). I still am not feeling/seeing Type 7 - -but I could agree to a wing.  Ha Ha. (Not that you need my permission or approval or anything - - just for clarification).


----------



## o0india0o

alittlebear said:


> @Hotaru thank you for the suggestion!
> 
> 6 has been suggested before, as has 7. I don't think I have a 6 fix even though, I think I am 7 with 6-seeming things that come out due to my trauma and other anxiety disorder.
> 
> One thing that keeps me from 6 is that I am not loyal. Loyalty is not a value I care about, I guess. If you are in the wrong, if you are hurting people, I will not side with you. I will side with those who are being hurt. (Which I guess is a pretty 6 thing to say, but eh.) my loyalty is... to humanity, I will try to do my best for any human being (ideally, of course I do not do this because I am a flawed individual) and it is important to me that I am not biased in favor of any person, that I see people as people as people without regard to any groups they belong to or how "worthy" they are so I can help them and love them fully.
> 
> I am cowardly. I am idealistic. I am steady in some ways, not so steady in others. I am _extremely_ submissive both by nature and by choice.
> 
> I don't think I've really suffered from being loyal to unhealthy people though. I'm not going to stand by if someone is hurting others and say that's okay. Like, I'm never going to do that. It's gotten me in trouble with my friends my entire life, because in that way I am not loyal to those who I should be loyal to, but... again, in my eyes, loyal to humanity.
> 
> I also just don't identify with the 6 motivation. Of course, few people who identify as 6 do immediately see their motivations as their motivations, but... I want a lot more than just stability. I want happiness. I want love. I want to help. I want to change the world. I want to reach out to others. I want a lot of things, but "stability" has never been one of those things that I have identified.


This all sounds **unbelievably** 2w1. I can hear the Type 1 influence in everything you say;; especially being willing to stand-up for something, even if it is unpopular, or will get you in-trouble. You have a lot of Type 1 zeal.

Possibly even 1w2 - - honestly.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@o0india0o thank you again for your input. And don't feel bad about saying what you think. 

It's just difficult for me... Because so many people think different things. A lot of users who I think are well versed in Enneagram have said I definitely seem to be a 9. A few have said I seem to have 7 qualities, including a few 7s. And a few people have commented that I could be 6 and come across as a 6 (but I think that's questionable due to my anxiety disorders, which I do not view as true parts of myself, as they are parts that developed over time and which I am currently working to permanently shed). And then quite a few knowledgable Enneagram people have said that I don't seem like a 2 at all, while other people (especially on my thread) have shared that 2 makes a lot of sense for me. 

I don't know. I honestly have the problem that both Quang and FearandTrembling have identified where I want someone to decide for me, because I don't know myself well enough... I want someone to see me and tell me who I am. Because I have so much freaking Extroverted Feeling. I can't decide who I am for myself. 

This week I'll try to go back to compiling all the notes people have left for me on my thread and here and try to sort through my type things. If that doesn't work, I'll continue taking suggestions but move onto reading an Enneagram text as Quang suggested to me. I'm taking way too long to decide this, but I want to make sure it fits and I do have a hard time knowing myself, unfortunately. :/


----------



## o0india0o

@alittlebear

Types I feel fairly confident (though this is just my opinion) that are not your core type: 3, 4, 7, 8.

Which leaves 1, 2, 5, 6, 9. Interestingly enough, three of those have a pairing with one another (or something like that). I'm guessing 1w2 or 2w1 and 6w5 or 5w6 and 9w1 or 1w9 are in your tritype. One of those is _probably_ your core type. I'm sticking with my original tritype and core type assertion (but now I have a wing for the Type 6):

2w1 9w1 6w5


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> @Hotaru
> 
> Oh! Good point!
> 
> Because, I agree @Living dead - - I don't feel like Type 2 _*completely*_ fits @alittlebear .. .but in my opinion, Type 9 fits even less.
> 
> alittlebear, I feel like your motivations fit Type 2 - - but I don't really see much of the negative side of Type 2 in you. I cannot imagine you being controlling, or manipulative. But maybe I just don't know you?
> 
> But I was a fan of putting Type 6 in the tritype to begin with (I --personally-- see _a lot_ of phobic Type 6 in you). I still am not feeling/seeing Type 7 - -but I could agree to a wing.  Ha Ha. (Not that you need my permission or approval or anything - - just for clarification).


I don't think positive sides can exist without negative ones unless you are really healthy maybe,not even then though.And @alittlebear went through some really stressful things,the bad side would definitely have to show.

True,I honestly don't know what a 2 is supposed to look like on the inside,when being totally honest with themselves and others.I mean,I can assume I am a 2 and therefore assume most 2s are like me but we all know it's not as simple as that.

Anyway,I also always saw 6 but maybe it's just the anxiety


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Living dead said:


> Always wondered about that "outcast" thing.
> 
> I never identified with being an outcast,even though my life was very weird and the fact is that I was more of an outcast than I thought I was.But I never took those things as my reality and my actual qualities.I never really felt different,at least not in a bad way even though now I see that in so many ways it was bad.


Hmm, well for me, I have the sense of being rejected, because I actually was (rather viciously). I withdrew, and eventually it became such a force of habit that I built an outsider persona around that. And for the most part, it belongs to the past, but my primary way of relating to people is, STILL, not to relate to them at all. They don't want me around, is the assumption. I'll just go amuse myself elsewhere.

Regarding Type 2, they have the sense that something about them is inherently rejectable. This doesn't have to mean they are outcasts, or feel like outcasts. It just means they feel some part of them is inherently unworthy...and thus, they build their lives around masking that. Image types, they deal with shame.



alittlebear said:


> I thought the love thing would be 9? Since love is the heavenly ideal or something of type 9?


Just to add one thing, Holy Love is the 9's "holy idea", not _heavenly ideal_. It's sort of their spiritual growing point, and is more of a deeper sense of true union with the universe than love for mankind in any way. I'm not actually sure what your type is, I haven't seen other 9s express anything like the passionate social and ethical ideals that you have. Just my two cents.


----------



## o0india0o

alittlebear said:


> @o0india0o thank you again for your input. And don't feel bad about saying what you think.
> 
> It's just difficult for me... Because so many people think different things. A lot of users who I think are well versed in Enneagram have said I definitely seem to be a 9. A few have said I seem to have 7 qualities, including a few 7s. And a few people have commented that I could be 6 and come across as a 6 (but I think that's questionable due to my anxiety disorders, which I do not view as true parts of myself, as they are parts that developed over time and which I am currently working to permanently shed). And then quite a few knowledgable Enneagram people have said that I don't seem like a 2 at all, while other people (especially on my thread) have shared that 2 makes a lot of sense for me.
> 
> I don't know. I honestly have the problem that both Quang and FearandTrembling have identified where I want someone to decide for me, because I don't know myself well enough... I want someone to see me and tell me who I am. Because I have so much freaking Extroverted Feeling. I can't decide who I am for myself.
> 
> This week I'll try to go back to compiling all the notes people have left for me on my thread and here and try to sort through my type things. If that doesn't work, I'll continue taking suggestions but move onto reading an Enneagram text as Quang suggested to me. I'm taking way too long to decide this, but I want to make sure it fits and I do have a hard time knowing myself, unfortunately. :/


Yeah, I can understand that. At first I thought I wanted people to reassure me of my type, but the more feedback I got, the more disoriented I became, Ha ha ha! :laughing:

At the end of the day though, I think I have a bit more nerve to say: "This is me". & Stand firmly on that.


----------



## Darkbloom

Huge question: How self aware are 2s on average?
Because really,playing dumb is faaar from being dumb


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> This all sounds **unbelievably** 2w1. I can hear the Type 1 influence in everything you say;; especially being willing to stand-up for something, even if it is unpopular, or will get you in-trouble. You have a lot of Type 1 zeal.
> 
> Possibly even 1w2 - - honestly.


Ack, I thought we swiped 1 off the table a while ago. Gahhhh. I think I've said this plenty of times before, but when I first came to Enneagram (before joining) I was back and forth between 1, 2, and 9. I think I first identified as 9, then 1 for quite a time, and then 2 (which I joined with). 

The only thing is,
I'm not that angry. I'm angry when I'm in an abusive situation, but I don't not all have outbursts of anger. 
I don't strive for perfection. Personal perfection, yes, but I am more than accepting that others are not perfect. I love imperfection. 
I don't care about correctness. 
Basically I don't identify with any of the 1 rings you had in your Enneagram thing with motivations and stresses and ideals last night. 

I mean, I am very principled for someone with high Fe. I know what's right. I know what's wrong. (If you hurt people, you're wrong. If you seek to do no harm, and do no harm, and help people, you're right.) Oddly enough, peer pressure was never a thing for me. (As far as bullying others, especially. I was never unkind to someone because everyone else was. I was that person going up to the bullies and going "This isn't you - you wouldn't hurt someone like this. But you are. And someday you're going to have to realize how wrong you are here" and then making best friends with the bullied [so now I have a whole flock of misfits as friends... We have fun.]) 

And... Yeah. That's all very 1. 

Not to mention that when I got my 3.5 for this semester, I was so upset with myself. Yes, I had to get that grade because my professors were honestly unfair and I took a few classes that were too much for me. Not to mention I've been so distressed from trauma, and it's kind of hard to be the most successful person when you're constantly being chased by flashbacks and feeling sick to your stomach and disgusted with yourself and the world, when the text you're reading is truly triggering and your professor' swords are triggering you but you are glued to your seat, unable to move because you can't let them know how upset you are because your trauma is unusual and no one would understand. Not to mention the classes I missed because I was unable to walk to them. My 3.5 is so excusable and so understandable, but still I could not forgive myself for it (and now I'm recovery by just not thinking about it, as I talk to my friends who are disappointed with their stupid A-s.). Yes, I had excuses, but I should be above the excuses. I should just perform well, perfectly, no matter what gets in my way. But I can't, you know. Accepting that I can't is one of the hardest things for me, especially when it comes to something like academics where I usually shine, where I e shined my entire life. 

But I still like the ideas that @Living dead has proposed. Either 9w1 2w1 XwX or 2w1 9w1 XwX. This set-up accounts for how I have characteristics of all three of those types. (I can't have 1w9 anywhere in my tritype; I can be a little 1w2 and 2w1 and 9w1, but in no way at all am I anything 1w9.)


----------



## o0india0o

@alittlebear

I get the feeling that Type 7 is how you want to see yourself, but Type 6 is who you really are. Plus, you don't identify with Type 8 or Type 6, so what would your wing be? :laughing:

When we were talking before;; you did feel you identified with Type 5 on some level.

I think that - - similar to me with my hesitancy about a possible Type 2 in my tritype - - I feel you have a similar hesitancy about Type 6 being in your tritype. I mention Type 6 for much, much, much more reasons than just anxiety.
I think I've noticed that many times (when it comes to tritype, and sometimes core type) - - people might have hang-ups about certain numbers, because they know someone super unhealthy & don't want to be associated with or see themselves as "cut from the same cloth" as that person, or they have an image of who they _want_ to be, and that Enneagram type threatens that, etc. ..
& for you, I think that type is Type 6.


----------



## o0india0o

> But I still like the ideas that @Living dead has proposed. Either 9w1 2w1 XwX or 2w1 9w1 XwX. This set-up accounts for how I have characteristics of all three of those types. (I can't have 1w9 anywhere in my tritype; I can be a little 1w2 and 2w1 and 9w1, but in no way at all am I anything 1w9.)


For the record, that's what I've been proposing multiple times. :tongue:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> Types I feel fairly confident (though this is just my opinion) that are not your core type: 3, 4, 7, 8.
> 
> Which leaves 1, 2, 5, 6, 9. Interestingly enough, three of those have a pairing with one another (or something like that). I'm guessing 1w2 or 2w1 and 6w5 or 5w6 and 9w1 or 1w9 are in your tritype. One of those is _probably_ your core type. I'm sticking with my original tritype and core type assertion (but now I have a wing for the Type 6):
> 
> 2w1 9w1 6w5


I always feel... well, I don't know what I feel, but I find it interesting when someone mentions 5 at all for me. While I identify some with 5, and like when my friend was taking the Enneagram test she would see the 5 options for questions and go like "No I'm not analytical, that's you not me," and a lot of people I know could easily see me as 5... Again, the main 5 things don't fit me. I think my 5 things could be inferior Ti, personally. The way I approach learning is significantly more 7-like. 

I have a best friend who is your typical 5. He needs to know. He needs to learn. He feels stressed if he doesn't know. I am deep, and I am smart, he tells me I am both smart and deep, and if think I may have tested higher on IQ than him even, but I don't have genius like he does. He's a whiz. He was valedictorian of our very large high school. Heck, I'm convinced he's going to be valedictorian of his nationally recognized university. I can also be brilliant, but not in his 5 way, you know?

That's probably not good evidence, but... Knowing a true 5 I don't think I'm very 5 myself (at least not as a core). 

I find it really interesting that you would even consider 5 for me though, in any way  I'm honored.


----------



## o0india0o

@alittlebear

Whoa, whoa, whoa! No worries, ha ha.
I was not saying you **are** a Type 1 - - I was just mentioning that your Type 1 zeal was strong (the force is strong in this one). 

But, I have frequently stated that my guess for your tritype is: 2w1 9w1 6w5 .
Having double 1-wings, would bring out that zeal and zest. So, I feel content with that being accounted for in that manner.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> For the record, that's what I've been proposing multiple times. :tongue:


I get all my proposals confused! Ha, I mostly remember Living dead saying that early in my thread and I remember going "oh, that makes sense..."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@o0india0o sorry if I seem aggressive or upset! I come across that way sometimes, but please let me assure yo and everyone on this thread I don't mean to come off that way. Sometimes I can be direct, but it's like I'm letting you into my mind cloud and sharing my thoughts and how I react to new ideas... It's not that I'm against you or upset with you, I'm just sharing my evaluation process with you... I'm not explaining it well, sorry, but please know that while my tone may seem aggressive I am not meaning to come across as aggressive. That might not be help if I am being aggressive without realizing it, but... At the very least let me assure you that I am not at all offended and appreciate all of your help given even if I do seem as if I don't. I'm sorry that I have a hard time expressing my gratitude sometimes, but let it be crystallized here.
@Kipposhi thank you for that clarification on type 9 and the heavenly idea. I will keep that in mind.


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> I just don't form alliances with powerful individuals,I was never a "Gretchen Wieners",as I call it.I don't like the idea of sucking up to someone just to have them treat me like slave.That's what I thought was non-3 about me,sometimes I basically take away from myself to gain something emotional.Like,I know being nice to someone bad will benefit me but I'd rather just openly hate them because them knowing I don't like them is a bigger punishment for them than my reward would be if I pretended to like them.But of course,it depends on a person.
> 
> I think I'm open,as open as I can be.
> 
> But yeah,Slytherin does sum it up well:laughing:
> Hufflepuff is my secondary though


I guess personally, I just find you hard to read.

EDIT: I don't know that Type 3's do form "alliances";; I see this as Type 6-ish. But, this was not a paragraph about Type 3's. It was a paragraph about how you come across, and what I (_think_) I know/understand about you.

The point is - - not a lot, Ha Ha. & apparently, what little I do know, a part of it was wrong! :laughing:

You're a bit of a closed book.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> I guess personally, I just find you hard to read.


Same.


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> This sounds like you:
> (Though you sound like you _might_ be in the unhealthier levels)


The biggest difference is that I'm very emotional.And when depressed,with nothing left,I feel emotions.And I express emotions.I become very non-9-ish.

Other thing is that all over this list I see implied that normal 3 is driven to succeed,compete,etc.And it's not _totally_ me.I know I often call myself competitive and ambitious but most of the competing I do is...Let's just say there's no medals or diplomas for what I do XD
It could fit SX 3 though,but that @Swordsman of Mana's thread about 3 misconceptions really made me think I'm not a 3(if that's really what 3 is about)


----------



## o0india0o

@Living dead

Yeah.. . I feel confident that you're somewhere in the image center;; but where would take more expertise and more knowledge of the finer details (because there are things about you that don't fit a lot of them). So I'm guessing it comes down to health levels, or instinctual variants, or some other finer detail.

I felt more confident with @alittlebear, because she acts in more of the traditional manner's I've seen with Type 2w1's (in Average to Healthy range - - at least on the internets).

Maybe someone with more image center could help out and chime in?
Because I just maxed out all my suggestions/guesses.


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> I guess personally, I just find you hard to read.
> 
> EDIT: I don't know that Type 3's do form "alliances";; I see this as Type 6-ish. But, this was not a paragraph about Type 3's. It was a paragraph about how you come across, and what I (_think_) I know/understand about you.
> 
> The point is - - not a lot, Ha Ha. & apparently, what little I do know, a part of it was wrong! :laughing:
> 
> You're a bit of a closed book.


I thought it could be 3-ish,doing whatever it takes to achieve even if it's uncomfortable.I could see an already very successful 3 not being like that though,but I still don't think they'd prioritize blurting out their emotions over chance to succeed.Sometimes it's so irresistible to just yell at someone even if it's not good for my reputation and health.

Still mostly correct though:tongue:

But seriously,I talk so much about myself ,how can I possibly be a closed book? XD


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> But seriously,I talk so much about myself ,how can I possibly be a closed book? XD


You know.. .that's a good question, (lol). One that is hard to explain.
You just seem more controlled and like you are maintaining an image.

I clearly (probably) seem like a spaz, Ha Ha! I let it all hang out.

You just seem to only tell us about very select things. Without including very emotional and personal elements.
It's not bad. I'm fine with it;; I accept it. *shrug*
Doesn't bother me one way or another.


----------



## o0india0o

[Double Post]


----------



## o0india0o

But, I have to eat lunch and keep packing guys.
I'll probably be on later.

I have all the time in the world until this Friday or Saturday (when we _*really*_ begin packing and doing TONS of stuff for our move across the country). Things will get busy;; but for now, I have a lot of free time.

Anyways, good talking with you guys!
& this conversation has bumped my status on PerC up to "Junior"! Ha Ha ha ha! Thanks guys! :tongue:


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> @Living dead
> 
> Yeah.. . I feel confident that you're somewhere in the image center;; but where would take more expertise and more knowledge of the finer details (because there are things about you that don't fit a lot of them). So I'm guessing it comes down to health levels, or instinctual variants, or some other finer detail.
> 
> I felt more confident with @alittlebear, because she acts in more of the traditional manner's I've seen with Type 2w1's (in Average to Healthy range - - at least on the internets).
> 
> Maybe someone with more image center could help out and chime in?
> Because I just maxed out all my suggestions/guesses.


Honestly,this is silly,but maybe it could be a cultural thing to a degree?
This place is crazy XD
Like,I just listened to a song with lyrics "People around me know,people around me will tell you that I surely won't be cutting my veins because of you" and there's also one about a woman saying she wants to ruin her boyfriend's new car and take away everything he has just because she can,etc. and it's pretty much pop music lol
Of course,many people here hate all of that but I've been loving it since the very beginning of my life lol
Again,not saying I'd be normal in America but I thought about this today and the culture probably does influence everyone to a degree


----------



## Darkbloom

But I feel like I _am_ presenting much more
Like,I feel like I'm being abnormally open but perhaps that's just the kind of openess we discussed
But it's ok,I don't blame you,I know there's _something_,I remember there being question about it in 2 core beliefs too

Thank you so much you guys,and I'll try to be more @alittlebear-ish kind of open in the future XD
Congrats on your junior status :tongue:


----------



## Psithurism

You three are so cute together.


----------



## pivot_turn

So many new pages! And I was following the recent conversations so I had to read them, plus to be able to comment.

alittlebear I think I'm also more confused about your type than before. I still think it could be 2w1, but also 9w1 seems quite compatible now, especially as you identify more with the bad traits of 9. I think also the disintegration line to 6 might work better for you than the one from 2 to 8. I can honestly imagine that line better with @Living dead who doesn't seem afraid at all to be a bit aggressive or a little unpopular at times from what she says. But then there's also so much that seems so 2.



alittlebear said:


> I definitely know my motivation, for the record. I want to make the world a better place. I want to help people. I want to do that physically by volunteering, but I also want to work to make individuals who are put down by society and societal structures (individuals who are oppressed for race, gender, religion, sexuality, disability, wealth, and etc.) less put down by society. And beyond that of course, I want to help people understand love, feel loved, and act in love in their own lives.
> 
> Perhaps that's not a 9 thing? I don't know. But it's definitely my thing.


I think that quite active helping motivation is quite 2-sounding. On the other hand, when healthy, 9 can get quite active when integrating to 3. One thing I really agree with, and I think I've pretty much said it every time I've said something about your type, is a strong 1 influence. You have given quite clear reasons for not being core 1, and those make sense, but there is so much 1-ness coming through still, as based on how much I know, that I would say you have quite a strong 1-wing either way, whether it's 9w1 or 2w1. 




Living dead said:


> I just don't form alliances with powerful individuals,I was never a "Gretchen Wieners",as I call it.I don't like the idea of sucking up to someone just to have them treat me like slave.That's what I thought was non-3 about me,sometimes I basically take away from myself to gain something emotional.Like,I know being nice to someone bad will benefit me but I'd rather just openly hate them because them knowing I don't like them is a bigger punishment for them than my reward would be if I pretended to like them.But of course,it depends on a person.
> 
> I think I'm open,as open as I can be.
> 
> But yeah,Slytherin does sum it up well:laughing:
> Hufflepuff is my secondary though


I don't think 3 is that much about making powerful alliances, though it can be about keeping up appearances in many ways if you're not succesfull at the moment. Anyway, what you posted seemed to me more like one of the reasons I don't type myself as 2 as my heart fix. But maybe I just read your comment through those lenses. It just makes me cringe every time I read something about 2 wanting to "serve" and stuff like that, which makes it sound like being someone's slave. 

Lol that quote actually makes you sound not so 2, but it could be the line to 8 talking, could it?

But as to your type Living dead, I must agree with others that the image triad has always seemed likely. I know you don't identify much with the acchieving of 3, but maybe it still could be an option. 4w3 could also be, but then I think I've seen you disagree with some quite core things of 4 as well, even though the image focus that at the same time partly turns towards the negative seems to fit. You seem quite different though from other Fours on the forums. (though there are just 9 types so we all can't be that alike within each type) But 2 could also fit in some ways, though you don't quite seem to embrace all the helpfulness in the same way alittlebear does, but she is quite in her own league in that.  Do you identify with the core stuff with 2? Actually the integration and disintegration lines of 2 seem to work quite well with you, come to think of it. 

And other than image, I can only think 6 or maybe 7w8. But is the latter too scattered for you? 

Living dead I don't think I've said anything about your typing before, but I have followed it as you might have noticed, and I'm interested to see where you both land in the end. Oh and I hope I didn't pick up too much of the more negative qualities, but like noted before in some posts, you tend to bring those up yourself.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

o0india0o said:


> The part that I bolded above seems more Type 6-ish to me?
> You're like, making a preemptive strike about protecting yourself & safety. Seems rather security oriented.


Yeah, I used to type as 6 too (because yeah, it is easy to relate to the concern for security and such), but lately I've been feeling... fuzzy, I guess. Like there's something I keep avoiding. Also I can be so... indolent. Not that questioning etc. So it made me reconsider. 

(Whew, that was a lot of pages to catch up with.)


----------



## galactic collision

@Living dead I think you are a 2w3. Your lines of connection to both 4 and 8 are obvious. I don't know you that well (and truth be told, I sometimes find your posts hard to read because you don't put a space between your punctuation and the next word, and that's hard on my ADD-riddled brain, it makes it harder to focus on what you're saying because I spend so much effort just trying to read it) but just from what I've seen, you seem like a 2 with a strong 3 wing. I think you also have the type 2 quality of thinking you know yourself a little better than you do - I don't know if "self aware" is the first thing I would say to describe you, although I do think that self awareness is something you strive for. You're kind of an enigma - you downplay how much you help other people but humblebrag about other things - but I can still see this as 2ish manipulation. Downplay your helpfulness in the hope that people will just notice and do something for you. In this case, you type people, possibly in the hope that they will type you back (and look, here we are). You have a lot of zeal when it comes to certain causes, and you get very 8-ish when you defend them. Your line to 4 is also obvious in how focused on yourself/your own inner life you are.


----------



## Darkbloom

pivot_turn said:


> So many new pages! And I was following the recent conversations so I had to read them, plus to be able to comment.
> 
> alittlebear I think I'm also more confused about your type than before. I still think it could be 2w1, but also 9w1 seems quite compatible now, especially as you identify more with the bad traits of 9. I think also the disintegration line to 6 might work better for you than the one from 2 to 8. I can honestly imagine that line better with @Living dead who doesn't seem afraid at all to be a bit aggressive or a little unpopular at times from what she says. But then there's also so much that seems so 2.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that quite active helping motivation is quite 2-sounding. On the other hand, when healthy, 9 can get quite active when integrating to 3. One thing I really agree with, and I think I've pretty much said it every time I've said something about your type, is a strong 1 influence. You have given quite clear reasons for not being core 1, and those make sense, but there is so much 1-ness coming through still, as based on how much I know, that I would say you have quite a strong 1-wing either way, whether it's 9w1 or 2w1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think 3 is that much about making powerful alliances, though it can be about keeping up appearances in many ways if you're not succesfull at the moment. Anyway, what you posted seemed to me more like one of the reasons I don't type myself as 2 as my heart fix. But maybe I just read your comment through those lenses. It just makes me cringe every time I read something about 2 wanting to "serve" and stuff like that, which makes it sound like being someone's slave.
> 
> Lol that quote actually makes you sound not so 2, but it could be the line to 8 talking, could it?
> 
> But as to your type Living dead, I must agree with others that the image triad has always seemed likely. I know you don't identify much with the acchieving of 3, but maybe it still could be an option. 4w3 could also be, but then I think I've seen you disagree with some quite core things of 4 as well, even though the image focus that at the same time partly turns towards the negative seems to fit. You seem quite different though from other Fours on the forums. (though there are just 9 types so we all can't be that alike within each type) But 2 could also fit in some ways, though you don't quite seem to embrace all the helpfulness in the same way alittlebear does, but she is quite in her own league in that.  Do you identify with the core stuff with 2? Actually the integration and disintegration lines of 2 seem to work quite well with you, come to think of it.
> 
> And other than image, I can only think 6 or maybe 7w8. But is the latter too scattered for you?
> 
> Living dead I don't think I've said anything about your typing before, but I have followed it as you might have noticed, and I'm interested to see where you both land in the end. Oh and I hope I didn't pick up too much of the more negative qualities, but like noted before in some posts, you tend to bring those up yourself.


But the thing is many 2 descriptions are strongly against the "servant" thing.Honestly,the biggest servant I know is a 9,maybe one phobic 6 too.But of course,there's different types of "servants" and a 2w1 I know does fit the traditionally helpful 2 description(in a bad way though) 

I relate to 2 core stuff but they sound so similar to 3 and 4,they all are related to worth and love(ofc lol)
But when I read that Beatrice Chestnut list of core beliefs 4 did not fit at all,I'm not negative in that way.I could really see myself both integrate and disintegrate to 4 though XD

Saw 6 as a possibility,but...not really.It is imo my second strongest fix though.7w8 no way haha,just waited for someone to bring up that one  (don't get me wrong,I can see why it could sometimes kinda look like that,but no,I even relate to 5 more than to 7)

Can't appreciate the good ones without first seeing the bad ones,so no worries 


Btwwhat's your tritype atm?


----------



## Darkbloom

@justforthespark, gonna reply to you later, battery almost dead 
I'm gonna try to type nicer XD


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Living dead said:


> But seriously,I talk so much about myself ,how can I possibly be a closed book? XD


Hey, just wanna say I know what people are talking about here. In your case, you do talk a lot about yourself, but a lot of it doesn't get at the core of the issues. There's something you're leaving out, probably not consciously. You can end up throwing out lots of signals, and lots of other tangential stuff, without actually touching on the essence of anything. At least, that's what I perceive is happening.

I did this for a number of years too, even toward myself. Maybe that's why I'm sensitive to it. This was how I didn't find my type for years--I honed in on everything about me and talked about it at great length, meanwhile completely stonewalling my actual issues. No one knew what I was, everyone thought I was full of shit, told me I was "creating an image", and the worst thing was that I was being completely open and honest the whole damn time. Talking about every side of me. Just not talking about anything of remote significance. It's easy to get caught up in the smaller characteristics and read too much significance in them.

I still don't even talk about my core. My sense is, what's the point? No one wants to hear about it; don't cast pearls before swine. But when you leave it out, everything else becomes significant, like the passing thought that I can identify with being an outsider, for instance.

I may be reading my own bias into this in your case, but I wonder if this is common? I mean I'm not trying to blather on about myself forever, but I think something similar may be happening in your case. We can only do so much for you here. I think one day you'll see what's going on, and you'll be able to articulate it to us.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@_Kipposhi_
You used to be Typeless didn't you? o: I didn't realize at first. orz


----------



## Pressed Flowers

If you guys want to see me firing off on someone and not acting at all like a sweet 9, you guys should see the Asexuality topic I just got into an argument on (and which I'm probably about to get an infraction from)...

I can get very passionate when I perceive someone with a very socially harmful opinion.


----------



## galactic collision

Living dead said:


> @justforthespark, gonna reply to you later, battery almost dead
> I'm gonna try to type nicer XD


Oh, I never said you weren't nice! I said you type people in the hope that they will type you back. I only called it manipulation because that's what it is, but I didn't intend to attach a negative connotation on it. I was only speaking in enneagram terms, but I understand that language is fickle and so is communicating over text. My apologies!

EDIT: just realized you meant type as in TYPING on a COMPUTER. lol i am a dumbass. my bad lmao.


----------



## Vaka

Kintsugi said:


> After some reflection, I am now pretty damn certain I am a 7.
> 
> And it _disgusts _me.
> 
> I honestly cannot see the type in a positive light, at all. All I see are the painful truths that I keep trying to run away from.
> 
> This is a _horrible _feeling.
> 
> Hideous.


I understand. It's natural to have a part of you that's completely and totally disgusted by your enneagram. It only means you're self aware


----------



## Kintsugi

lycanized said:


> I understand. It's natural to have a part of you that's completely and totally disgusted by your enneagram. It only means you're self aware


Thank you. That was really fucking hard for me to admit.

I appreciate it.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Kintsugi said:


> Thank you. That was really fucking hard for me to admit.
> 
> I appreciate it.


You just seem disappointed with yourself. You are probably under stress or in a negative state of mind lately and making an impulsive decision on your type. Hence, blaming your type for your problems and making yourself feel stuck with your problems and more miserable. 

I got that feeling when I typed at both 5 and 9. Felt like I'd be miserable forever. After 2 days or sth, I had forgetten all about that.

or maybe yours is different, just my 7 cents (is this right, or is it 2 cents ? lol )


----------



## o0india0o

alittlebear said:


> It's just so hard for me to get ahold of books that aren't... common. My parents are suspicious when it buy things, and if I buy a book on personality they'll get worried I'm being obsessive about it (which is probably true... but).
> 
> Whenever I get the means and if I ever see her books around, I'll keep that in mind though. Just the title of the books make me feel warm and soft inside, which is a nice feeling.


Like I said, the books are not about psychology or personality stuff. The author actually has Christian influences (sounds like your parents would appreciate that) - - though she doesn't fully out-right discuss anything Christian. It's much more like the Chicken Soup for the Soul book series. & You can probably find any of her books at your local library (that's what I did!).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

o0india0o said:


> Like I said, the books are not about psychology or personality stuff. The author actually has Christian influences (sounds like your parents would appreciate that) - - though she doesn't fully out-right discuss anything Christian. It's much more like the Chicken Soup for the Soul book series. & You can probably find any of her books at your local library (that's what I did!).


Oh, alright! I might try that then. I do have connections at my local library.  My parents are actually suspicious of religious texts too, ha, but sometimes they aren't too nosy about my book selection. If I cushion it in with some classics they shouldn't care too much.


----------



## o0india0o

Kintsugi said:


> Excuse me for being a little jaded. T____T
> 
> Surely thinking your type is awesome is missing the point?
> 
> Isn't Enneagram about "transcending personality"?


I think it depends on what you want from the Enneagram. I personally think health levels matter more, and that pulling in all the Enneagram types is a load of bunk! But, it all depends on how you interpret things.

I'm happy to be me;; I don't think there is anything flawed with that.
Though - - you do seem a bit.. .sad to be a Type 7. You might be mistyped;; if that makes you any happier. :tongue:


----------



## Kintsugi

o0india0o said:


> I think it depends on what you want from the Enneagram. I personally think health levels matter more, and that pulling in all the Enneagram types is a load of bunk! But, it all depends on how you interpret things.
> 
> I'm happy to be me;; I don't think there is anything flawed with that.
> Though - - you do seem a bit.. .sad to be a Type 7. You might be mistyped;; if that makes you any happier. :tongue:


I'm _*not *_happy just being me. I am a fluid creature. I am forever evolving, adapting, changing. I am always striving for the best. I will _never _be satisfied with things as they are. I am ALWAYS looking at how things _could be.

_I'm impatient, hungry, and always demanding _more, _I can never sit still. There is a constant fire burning inside of me, threatening to rage uncontrollably and devour my whole existence if I do not devote myself to it.

I am a slave, and always have been. And, yet, it is my obsession with freedom, that, ironically, is what enslaves me the most.

*THIS* is my frustration.

Too sad to be a 7? You clearly misunderstand what the type is _truly _about. 

Darkness dwells inside us all. Including _you.


_


----------



## o0india0o

Kintsugi said:


> I'm _*not *_happy just being me. I am a fluid creature. I am forever evolving, adapting, changing. I am always striving for the best. I will _never _be satisfied with things as they are. I am ALWAYS looking at how things _could be.
> 
> _I'm impatient, hungry, and always demanding _more, _I can never sit still. There is a constant fire burning inside of me, threatening to rage uncontrollably and devour my whole existence if I do not devote myself to it.
> 
> I am a slave, and always have been. And, yet, it is my obsession with freedom, that, ironically, is what enslaves me the most.
> 
> *THIS* is my frustration.
> 
> Too sad to be a 7? You clearly misunderstand what the type is _truly _about.
> 
> Darkness dwells inside us all. Including _you.
> 
> 
> _


Suit yourself!


----------



## Kintsugi

o0india0o said:


> Suit yourself!


Aww, don't run away. I was having fun. :kitteh:


----------



## o0india0o

Kintsugi said:


> Aww, don't run away. I was having fun. :kitteh:


Oh! Ha Ha ha!

I didn't recognize that. 

I thought you were going off the deep end. (lol)

Yeah, I didn't mean that you cannot be a Type 7 because you're sad - - it just seems like you were overly upset about _being_ a Type 7. That's all.
I'm a Type 7 - - I've been sad before! We all do it;; just like pooping. Everybody poops.


----------



## Darkbloom

But shouldn't everyone be upset about being their type?
Or is it the 4 in me talking? XD


----------



## Kintsugi




----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> But shouldn't everyone be upset about being their type?
> Or is it the 4 in me talking? XD


You know, that's an interesting question. After what @Kintsugi said, it made me want to create a forum thread with poll, asking the question. I might later.

Honestly, it never occurred to me to dislike my type (unless I was something I didn't want to be). Are you suggesting @Living dead that we are only typed right if we hate our type a little bit? (lol)

For the record, I'm really happy with being a Type 7;; when we're healthy, we're pretty Awesome. 
I don't know - - it's not so bad! imo.


----------



## o0india0o

Kintsugi said:


>


… .. ……

I'm just going to assume that's your "I'm having fun" face! :tongue:


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> You know, that's an interesting question. After what @Kintsugi said, it made me want to create a forum thread with poll, asking the question. I might later.
> 
> Honestly, it never occurred to me to dislike my type (unless I was something I didn't want to be). Are you suggesting @Living dead that we are only typed right if we hate our type a little bit? (lol)
> 
> For the record, I'm really happy with being a Type 7;; when we're healthy, we're pretty Awesome.
> I don't know - - it's not so bad! imo.


Well,I don't think we're necessarily mistyped but we probably are delusional XD 
9 is the only one that makes me truly sad and as we discussed,I'm really very unlikely to be a 9.I think enneagram is sad,once I tried to read some book and I couldn't stop crying but it was not specific type related(9 definitely was the worst though) XD
And I just have a feeling I should be hating myself.But I guess I just don't.Even when I do really hate myself I don't _really_ hate myself.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I thought I could be a 9 because I felt guilty about being a 9. I read the flaws and went, "Is this a disorder? How do I get rid of this?" It's hard for me to be moved to action, and my laziness is chronic. I didn't feel that down when I thought I was a 2. (With 2 it feels that Pride isn't much of a problem for me, I just have to yell at myself a bit and put me down with is easy enough to do.)


----------



## Paradigm

Yeah I'm convinced the "everyone must be disgusted with their type" trope is a myth, created by some projecting their own disgust onto others.

Never felt any horror over being a 6, but then again my mom (who I'm close to) is a healthier 6, too. So I had a great model for the type before I even recognized myself in it. And at the time of self-typing, I don't think I had never met a really unhealthy example of _any _type, much less an unhealthy 6, so most of them seemed okay to me.

Tbh I still feel that way. I'm not proud of my type, but I'm not disgusted by it either. It's just a number.


----------



## Vaka

Paradigm said:


> Yeah I'm convinced the "everyone must be disgusted with their type" trope is a myth, created by some projecting their own disgust onto others.
> 
> Never felt any horror over being a 6, but then again my mom (who I'm close to) is a healthier 6, too. So I had a great model for the type before I even recognized myself in it. And at the time of self-typing, I don't think I had never met a really unhealthy example of _any _type, much less an unhealthy 6, so most of them seemed okay to me.
> 
> Tbh I still feel that way. I'm not proud of my type, but I'm not disgusted by it either. It's just a number.


Well I'm certainly disgusted by mine, lol. And I thought it would be natural simply because you're aware of the ugliness and what's destructive, not just the generalized parts of a type or even the idealized parts of it. I've never really heard anyone say you have to be disgusted by your type, though

But then 4 is a sometimes idealized type. Some others aren't


----------



## d e c a d e n t

To be honest I was almost... disappointed that I wasn't more put off by my own type at first. After getting used to it, though, and learning about it more, the thought of being an attachment type is pretty sad/disturbing.

So yay, I eventually got the "be disgusted at your own type"-experience.


----------



## Paradigm

lycanized said:


> Well I'm certainly disgusted by mine, lol. And I thought it would be natural simply because you're aware of the ugliness and what's destructive, not just the generalized parts of a type or even the idealized parts of it. I've never really heard anyone say you have to be disgusted by your type, though
> 
> But then 4 is a sometimes idealized type. Some others aren't


Sorry, didn't mean to imply it's not natural. Just that it's by no means required and isn't always indicative of your core type (or even part of your tritype).


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

RinnayDelRey said:


> Explain yourself Sir Sword.


people can talk about his "justice" leanings all they want, but the truth is....he doesn't give afuq. if you look at what he actually is, Light is a charmer and a _deceiver_, able to keep up a continuous image of an overachieving schoolboy, chief investigator, lover, "god of justice", etc, without ever letting anything slip. that kind of behavior would wreak havoc on the psyche of the more straightforward Enneagram 1, a type which loathes sneakiness and dishonesty and finds deception extremely taxing (if even possible to begin with, just look at Ned Stark from Game of Thrones: a real Enneagram 1). Light does not give a damn about "justice", what he truly cares about is
1) having a challenge to overcome, complete with a formidable nemesis (L)
2) becoming the "god of a new world" (which is a very grandiose way of saying he wants boatloads of fucking prestige)
3) alleviating the perpetual feelings of boredom he experiences in day to day life

Light is not a 1, he is a narcissistic sociopath who enjoys playing the white knight to appease his king sized ego.

PS: while Light is an obvious example of a 3, he is not a _typical_ example of a 3, which is generally far less narcissistic and grandiose, albeit still very competitive and potentially ruthless.


----------



## Sara Torailles

No one seems to think I'm mistyped. That is odd. I start a lot of conflicts online. 9w1. You know, the peacemaker or some shit. Aren't I supposed to be sweet?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Sara Torailles said:


> No one seems to think I'm mistyped. That is odd. I start a lot of conflicts online. 9w1. You know, the peacemaker or some shit. Aren't I supposed to be sweet?


now that you mention it, I could easily see you as a 6w7 or a Social 4 of some sort. additionally, a 1 fix is not impossible, but not core 1. my best guess is 4w5>6w7>1w9 So/Sx


----------



## Sara Torailles

Swordsman of Mana said:


> now that you mention it, I could easily see you as a 6w7 or a Social 4 of some sort. additionally, a 1 fix is not impossible, but not core 1. my best guess is 4w5>6w7>1w9 So/Sx


Really? One was a type I considered because I am concerned with being good in a sense. I just have a strange ethic, based more on individual logic and what is best for everyone involved rather than group identification. Group identity was always a means to an end for me. If I believed something was right, I would position my stance in the group that advocated for that, and spoke from that position. Some positions I have are intersectional feminist (e.g. much of the problems in our country are based on seeing women as inferior, feminism does too much for white cis straight women and not enough for other groups of women who face greater amounts of misogyny) and some are libertarian (e.g. all drugs should be legal, the idea of a free market with tons of competition is great, etc...) I guess right now I would identify as libertarian socialist, but that's not really completely right, either. 

Wouldn't 4s have a strong sense of identity and be spending their time in art museums or some shit? I mean, most of my life was bury my identity, keep the peace. Then I'm slowly losing the ability to bury things. I can't keep secrets about myself anymore. I hate this because I've been completely disconnected from the world as long as I can remember (tried to feign some sort of camaraderie but never felt it at all), didn't know why and now I'm all but coming out to everyone, hoping someone will understand what the hell I'm going through. A lot of people don't even want to talk about transsexuality, much less universally accept someone who feels the opposite gender, has for a very long time, and is now noticing it, but still presenting that facade that slowly is suffocating them.

I just express myself through sarcasm and passive-aggressive anger. It's a good defense mechanism now. If someone hates me, I can control it. I can hate them just as much and I have power. It's easy then. Hating them keeps me from hating myself.

I could kind of see Six but I always saw Six as much more... Focused on groups. Like, either trying to get along with the group they identify with, or actively going against the mainstream. I never wanted to be against the mainstream, I just am because that's the situation I'm constantly forced into, and the choice I'm forced to take.

Oh, and I'm hardly social in real life. People are often stupid judgmental assholes, so I generally distance myself from them as much as possible. I used to have a side that wanted to be nice to others and get along with everyone and be happy and pretend that my anger towards them didn't exist, but that died along with my hopes and dreams of being existentially happy. People are scum.

I don't see a 7 wing. I dunno what that would even look like on a Six. Seems very counterphobic and unstable, kinda like, "I'm going to jerk off an angry bull" unstable.

Aren't I difficult to type? :tongue:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I've been trying to convince people of it for years. to anyone who actually watches the show, he is the most obvious fucking Social 3 I've ever seen :laughing:


I see it that way too actually. (Didn't see the show but I did read some of the manga.) Like yeah, if what he really was concerned about was (his idea of) justice, he easily could have delivered it in a more subtle way instead of playing the game like he did, but nah, he wanted the attention. Although I'm sure a type 1 can crave attention too, but more than that they'd have the need to convince themselves they are in the right, which I don't remember seeing from Light much. (And it... amuses me when I see discussions like this, because yeah, it was really more of a game between two egos than it was some ethical debate-thing.)



lycanized said:


> Ah, do you feel as if it'd push people away you want to get close to? I'm going by what you said was image related


Also, I guess I should respond to this. And yeah, I kind of do. Or at least, it feels to me like it's fairly... unattractive? Even if the other person doesn't mind, it doesn't go with my idea of what is attractive, but that might be because I've pushed people away in the past, etc. And so that is kinda haunting me. =P


----------



## Kisshoten

Mandraque said:


> I don't think Light is a 3. He is not image oriented, at all. Of course he likes to see himself desirable and the perfect student model, but that is not his fixation. His fixation is in justice and fair-playing. So that's why I type him as a 1





Swordsman of Mana said:


> I've been trying to convince people of it for years. to anyone who actually watches the show, he is the most obvious fucking Social 3 I've ever seen :laughing:


Interesting. 

I find it a little too unrealistic to type him as any one type, but I really thought a 1 would go crazy before mass murdering people and feeling happy about being considered a god.

As for 3, the only thing I saw favoring that was his control-freakish nature. 

I have no idea what he is.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> people can talk about his "justice" leanings all they want, but the truth is....he doesn't give afuq.


I'm justice - Light 




> if you look at what he actually is, Light is a charmer and a _deceiver_,


I believe that comes from a connection to 7. Once a 5w4 told us that he was very good at deceiving 




> able to keep up a continuous image of an overachieving schoolboy, chief investigator, lover, "god of justice", etc, without ever letting anything slip. that kind of behavior would wreak havoc on the psyche of the more straightforward Enneagram 1, a type which loathes sneakiness and dishonesty and finds deception extremely taxing (if even possible to begin with, just look at Ned Stark from Game of Thrones: a real Enneagram


Light doesn't have the fixation of becoming desirable or the ''role model''. 3s are attachment types and they embody the values of their society. Does light does that? No, he goes on the opposite direction. He sticks to his own values (very typical of 1) and goes around claiming he is justice and that he ''must caught kira'' to obtain justice. 




> 1). Light does not give a damn about "justice", what he truly cares about is


''I've become justice, the only hope for mankind... kill me is that the right thing to do'' If he didn't care about justice he wouldn't definitely say that. 



> 1) having a challenge to overcome, complete with a formidable nemesis (L)


That's detachment triad. 




> 2) becoming the "god of a new world" (which is a very grandiose way of saying he wants boatloads of fucking prestige)


However, he does grab about it, not even with Misa. He only cares for justice and morals. He is a gut type not heart. 




> 3) alleviating the perpetual feelings of boredom he experiences in day to day life


He has a strong connection to 7 rofl. 




> Light is not a 1, he is a narcissistic sociopath who enjoys playing the white knight to appease his king sized ego.


You know i think you just want him to be an ID type, because in your lil mind superego types can't be sociopaths and have a strong ego. That's all.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Mandraque
all you've given me is empty, grandiose rhetoric which he told himself and (primarily) others, in order to paint himself as the hero/"god of a new world". so yeah, he absolutely would spew bullshit like that if he truly didn't care. unhealthy 2s, 3s and 7s are famous for that kind of shit. 1s are not.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Damn, I must not stand out enough for people to assess whether or not I'm a mistype.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Mandraque_
> all you've given me is empty, grandiose rhetoric which he told himself and (primarily) others, in order to paint himself as the hero/"god of a new world". so yeah, he absolutely would spew bullshit like that if he truly didn't care. unhealthy 2s, 3s and 7s are famous for that kind of shit. 1s are not.


Again you are being limited as hell :dry: Every time can have that complex, in particular, 1s, 3s, 6s, 8s. God of the new world sounds 1-ish as hell :th_o: and plus, I remember when you said in another forum that he was an 8 :laughing: See you want him to be an ID type cause you believe ID types are kings and the queens of the enneagram...

(at least this is what I see)


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Mandraque said:


> Again you are being limited as hell :dry: Every time can have that complex, in particular, 1s, 3s, 6s, 8s. God of the new world sounds 1-ish as hell :th_o: and plus, I remember when you said in another forum that he was an 8 :laughing: See you want him to be an ID type cause you believe ID types are kings and the queens of the enneagram...
> 
> (at least this is what I see)


I am not being limited. you are being limited because you are buying into the rhetoric of a smooth talking, political bastard :laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@lycanized
Anyway, right now I'd say I'm in one of those angry-but-actually-ashamed moods. Like I have this urge to murder someone (or at least hurt them quite a bit), but at the same time I realize those thoughts are like a reaction against/diversion from feelings of shame. So it's all pretty pathetic. :tongue:


----------



## Sina

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Kipposhi_
> 
> in lieu of this, I don't see 7w8 as a likely typing for you. maybe 6w7 or 7w6 with a strong 6 wing. honestly, I've never seen a 7w8 or 8w7 really care in any capacity about being a "reject". they might be aware that _other people_ view them as a black sheep, scourge, outcast, etc, but this generally just amuses them. @_Vajra_ was telling me once about how, growing up in India, she was made fun of for having darker skin and she was like "lol! they're stupid. I know I'm beautiful" (7w8 and 8w7 are double "give zero fucks" types). obviously, any type can feel a sense of pain and rejection when hurt or rejected by someone close to them, but a sense of existential rejection, outcast etc is very un-8/7w8.
> imo, your type is something along the lines of 6w7/7w6>1w9>4w? So/Sx (though you are hardly a textbook example of any subtype of either 7 or 6.)


I am biracial, and I don't meet the so called beauty standards of either culture. It wasn't only in my time spent in India that I was explicitly told I was unattractive because of my darker skin. I've heard this all over. I am angered by the racist roots of colourism. I just didn't internalize the idea that I was less attractive or less beautiful at any point. It just didn't affect me. I was always proud and had an impenetrably high opinion of myself lol. I will mention my father here, because he too always made me feel beautiful, and he was a very progressive individual. He played a very active role in my upbringing. So, it takes more than a number on some esoteric system to yield the kind of confidence I have, in its totality.




> Vajra,
> since I mentioned you, one thing that strikes me as much more 8 than 7 in you is that you are always, consciously or (usually) unconsciously sizing people up.


Meh this is very hyperbolic. The only people I 'size up' are professional rivals. There it's a strategic necessity. My unconscious awareness and attention don't fixate on sizing people up in general.



> how psychologically strong they are, what can break them, what their weaknesses/insecurities are, if they're being legit or full of shit, etc.


I've always been good at exploiting the ****** in people's armour. As for legit/full of shit, again, I don't assume someone is full of shit until they demonstrate it. Once they do, that's that. I don't have to 'size' people up to see this. Given enough time and /or stupidity, people will demonstrate who they are. I don't give as much space to this in my attentional focus as you imply. There's a pre-emption there I don't relate to, regardless of your thoughts on my type. 



> 7s can be good at this, and will bring it up from time to time when relevant (7s have better bullshit detectors than they are given credit for, especially Sp 7w8), but it's not generally a conversation topic they gravitate toward on a regular basis.


Most of our conversations revolve around our own lives, enneagram theory, celebrity typings, relationships, political disagreements/agreements etc. rather than who is legit and who is full of shit lol. This is not some conversation topic you or I regularly gravitate to. When people we know come up, then both of us can express our opinions on them, favourable or not. That's just regular conversation. 



> you seem to do it automatically and consistently, to the point where I feel like simply talking to you exposes all of my weaknesses and brings them to my attention.


This is different, and it's applicable. It's one thing to make a regular conversation topic of who is full of shit etc. and another to have the kind of personality that causes people to feel exposed. I've heard this from a lot of people. In general, we have seen how just being myself brings out people's insecurities in the most hilarious of ways. It has to do with being assertive and straightforward. It takes a certain confidence to not get all insecure and bent out of shape around people like myself, for the very vast majority of people who tend to be rather hollow and pissy. 

In more mature individuals, I still see what you described regarding your weaknesses or whatever being brought to your attention. You also need to look into what it is in you that is triggered by my personality in that manner. This is a dynamic we could explore further. It says as much about you as it does about me. 



> while I'm at it, you are far less socially oblivious than you seem to believe.


I don't consider myself socially oblivious. I lack many types of soc intelligence and attunement, and when I was younger, the professional impact of this deficiency was especially significant. 



> sure, some of the sneakiness of low-level 6w5s and 3s (the former of which love to band together against you :laughing: ) might slip past the net, but you are keenly observant of character, tactics and intentions (more so than most of the 8s and 6s I know.


Like I've said, I have far too much going for myself to bother with that stuff. It's also very at odds with how and who I am, so very different from how I function. Sneakiness and passive aggression will generally slip past me, before something becomes a pattern. Once I catch up, I play such people hard for my own amusement. If they are dumb enough to cross the line, it doesn't end well for them. It's that simple.

And yeah, I've always said that I was a great judge of character. The kind of shit you mention may slip past, resulting in some oversights here and there. But, I am not easily fooled overall. I also have a ton of life experience for someone in their mid-20s. You learn a lot just living life and experiencing the best and worst of people. When I place my attention on someone or something, my insights into people and situations are often unusually perceptive, sharp and applicable. I have strong instincts, and I am both objective and dynamic in how I view things. 





> at the very least, if the lack thereof was reason against typing as an 8, I would reconsider it, because your tendencies in this area put you well within range, even if you do not have the people reading skills of a mob boss)


I haven't thought of type in a long time. Though, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on it.


----------



## Kisshoten

Sara Torailles said:


> Damn, I must not stand out enough for people to assess whether or not I'm a mistype.


Welcome to the club, my dear


----------



## Sina

Someone had asked about 3 vs 6 hypervigilance. 
6 hypervigilance: intent, motives, what's left unsaid, what's beyond the surface
3 hypervigilance: compulsive productivity to make sure everything is under control and the three is competent at what they do, unconscious and conscious monitoring and calibration of self-image with what is valued (will bring them affirmation) and conducive to the 3's goals, constant focus on how to get even better, with the emphasis lying on whatever the 3 values, which is further influenced by what is valued in the 3's cultural milieu.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Can someone tell me my image fix ? Thanks 

Seriously, if someone can tell how 2/3/4 plays out as the last fix, I'll appreciate. Don't think Im 4 fixed but 2 and 3 is too meh and unrelatable, too.


----------



## cinnabun

As someone mentioned to me before, it has came to my attention I am a core 8. Most likely 8w7, so/sp.

Anyone who disagrees is therefore wrong as I am right and Holy.

I also have a 1 fix.


----------



## o0india0o

crashbandicoot said:


> Can someone tell me my image fix ? Thanks
> 
> Seriously, if someone can tell how 2/3/4 plays out as the last fix, I'll appreciate. Don't think Im 4 fixed but 2 and 3 is too meh and unrelatable, too.


Without knowing absolutely anything about you - - I vote Type 3! 

Second pick is Type 4, last is Type 2.

But again, I've only seen you speak a couple times, and I've only spoken to you once. So, take it with a grain of salt!


----------



## Mr inappropriate

o0india0o said:


> Without knowing absolutely anything about you - - I vote Type 3!
> 
> Second pick is Type 4, last is Type 2.
> 
> But again, I've only seen you speak a couple times, and I've only spoken to you once. So, take it with a grain of salt!


oh, type 3 like :3 eh ? erc2:

thanks for voting :kitteh: can I ask what makes you say that ? :happy:


----------



## o0india0o

crashbandicoot said:


> oh, type 3 like :3 eh ? erc2:
> 
> thanks for voting :kitteh: can I ask what makes you say that ? :happy:


Well, again, I'm not working off of much but gut instinct and vibe. & I have not even interacted with you much, so it could be _wildly_ inaccurate. Not sure if you ever did an Enneagram Questionnaire?

Anyways, you don't come across as very "warm" as I imagine a Type 2 fix influence might have. You seem more cold, rational, and removed. This leads me more towards a Type 3 fix, and also, Type 4 fixes can bring that same vibe-ish (or so I've noticed);; a more "removed" feel.

You just seem capable of messing with people, and having a good laugh about it - - I feel a Type 3 lends itself to that. :laughing:

You also don't seem to have some of the "sullen" energy a Type 4 fix can bring. 

So, basically, this is solely about _feel_. Like I said, if I interacted with you more, I'd have a better feel for you - - I am probably wayyy off, Ha ha ha!

& btw, I do think you're a nice guy. I hope you understand I was not calling into question your friendliness or niceness. 

Out of curiosity, what is your gut fix?


----------



## Kintsugi

Vergil said:


> Someone actually said that about 7s? Wow, I didn't think people actually believed that. I, for one, was always directed to 1 or 6 for my anger. Glad to know more people are breaking away from stereotypical one line summaries of types.


Me too. Apparently I'm too "negative" to be a 7. I get 1 and 6 chucked at me a lot as well. 

The stereotypes confused me for a _long _time. Best thing I ever did was stop listening to other peoples opinions on what my type was and focused on figuring it out myself. 

Can't really see myself as anything other than 7 now.


----------



## Paradigm

Mandraque said:


> just read what you have written )


in b4 "no but SX (and/or SOC last) makes all the difference"

>_>


----------



## 7rr7s

Vergil said:


> Someone actually said that about 7s? Wow, I didn't think people actually believed that. I, for one, was always directed to 1 or 6 for my anger. Glad to know more people are breaking away from stereotypical one line summaries of types.


yeah, but it made sense when I thought about it. One of my best friends is a 7w8 as well as a 9 fixer, and although he is chill as fuck and likes to smoke weed with his cat all day, he is also incredibly pissed off alot of the time. XD. And it's kind of the same thing with people telling dollie how she couldn't possibly be a 7 because she had anxiety. Anyways, it's always a good thing to hack away at some of the bullshit.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> Someone actually said that about 7s? Wow, I didn't think people actually believed that. I, for one, was always directed to 1 or 6 for my anger. Glad to know more people are breaking away from stereotypical one line summaries of types.





Kintsugi said:


> Me too. Apparently I'm too "negative" to be a 7. I get 1 and 6 chucked at me a lot as well.


I just think that's really weird...Riso and Hudson--who've done more to propagate stereotypes than any other authors, imo--even say that sevens have lashing tempers and a really low tolerance for frustration. Particularly in the low levels, they can be really nasty, even abusive. RH even attribute murder to them in the lowest levels of health. I wonder how come this gets left out in the general conceptualization?

Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of stereotypes all over the place...my thoughts of 7, though, were that they were crass and materialistic hyperactive monkeys. Though I did hold the "sevens can't be negative, they're in denial" stereotype and refused to consider it for years for that reason. ...I then realized my hangups about being negative were actually _because_ I have a 7 component.

But I'm glad you guys are speaking out about it. People mainly want to bust stereotypes around 6, but I'm seriously starting to think EVERY TYPE needs some serious myth-busting, at least on the online community. Seven is a cause close to my heart. (Or head, as it were).


----------



## Paradigm

Kipposhi said:


> I'm seriously starting to think EVERY TYPE needs some serious myth-busting, at least on the online community.


This is true. But let's not limit it to the online community as if the offline one is flawless. I mean, RH is in "real life" and hosts all sorts of conventions and stuff (which are, I'd wager, attended by those who talk about it _both irl and online_), and as you said RH propagates stereotypes. It's just that we're most familiar with the online communities and they're the most populated (and when something becomes more popular, it becomes more simplized - see Jung vs MBTI vs Keirsey).


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Paradigm said:


> This is true. But let's not limit it to the online community as if the offline one is flawless. I mean, RH is in "real life" and hosts all sorts of conventions and stuff (which are, I'd wager, attended by those who talk about it _both irl and online_), and as you said RH propagates stereotypes. It's just that we're most familiar with the online communities and they're the most populated (and when something becomes more popular, it becomes more simplized - see Jung vs MBTI vs Keirsey).


To be really honest, I have considerably less experience with the offline enneagram scene...so I can't attest to its flaws. I'd be interested in hearing some perspectives on this, for anyone who has been involved. (I'm particularly curious as to whether RH have revised their ideas since the original publication of _Wisdom_ and _PT_.)

I think who come online for information are similar to me in this respect--just looking up information quickly, for free. Not everyone has the wherewithal, or lives in a location, to be involved offline. In online forums the discussion, unfortunately, veers toward the lowest common denominator to be understood (as you pointed out). Gotta love the internet.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Sara Torailles said:


> Really? One was a type I considered because I am concerned with being good in a sense. I just have a strange ethic, based more on individual logic and what is best for everyone involved rather than group identification. Group identity was always a means to an end for me. If I believed something was right, I would position my stance in the group that advocated for that, and spoke from that position. Some positions I have are intersectional feminist (e.g. much of the problems in our country are based on seeing women as inferior, feminism does too much for white cis straight women and not enough for other groups of women who face greater amounts of misogyny) and some are libertarian (e.g. all drugs should be legal, the idea of a free market with tons of competition is great, etc...) I guess right now I would identify as libertarian socialist, but that's not really completely right, either.
> 
> Wouldn't 4s have a strong sense of identity and be spending their time in art museums or some shit? I mean, most of my life was bury my identity, keep the peace. Then I'm slowly losing the ability to bury things. I can't keep secrets about myself anymore. I hate this because I've been completely disconnected from the world as long as I can remember (tried to feign some sort of camaraderie but never felt it at all), didn't know why and now I'm all but coming out to everyone, hoping someone will understand what the hell I'm going through. A lot of people don't even want to talk about transsexuality, much less universally accept someone who feels the opposite gender, has for a very long time, and is now noticing it, but still presenting that facade that slowly is suffocating them.
> 
> I just express myself through sarcasm and passive-aggressive anger. It's a good defense mechanism now. If someone hates me, I can control it. I can hate them just as much and I have power. It's easy then. Hating them keeps me from hating myself.
> 
> I could kind of see Six but I always saw Six as much more... Focused on groups. Like, either trying to get along with the group they identify with, or actively going against the mainstream. I never wanted to be against the mainstream, I just am because that's the situation I'm constantly forced into, and the choice I'm forced to take.
> 
> Oh, and I'm hardly social in real life. People are often stupid judgmental assholes, so I generally distance myself from them as much as possible. I used to have a side that wanted to be nice to others and get along with everyone and be happy and pretend that my anger towards them didn't exist, but that died along with my hopes and dreams of being existentially happy. People are scum.
> 
> I don't see a 7 wing. I dunno what that would even look like on a Six. Seems very counterphobic and unstable, kinda like, "I'm going to jerk off an angry bull" unstable.
> 
> Aren't I difficult to type? :tongue:


So, like, no one is gonna respond to this. Motherfuckers.

Sigh... Ignored for a guy whose surname is "I'm a gay" spelled backwards.

Also, isn't a disintegrated 9 supposed to look like a 6?

Oh, and on another forum, someone considered my behavior 5ish. I don't know why, though. I think it's because I can detach very well.

Social subtype 4 doe... I could be some sort of hipster. I dunno. I don't really consider myself going against the mainstream for anything other than simply because a) I'm bored and I want to push people to think, but people seem to overreact to what I pose. b) Because I'm forced to be and the mainstream is clearly wrong.

I think when I draw attention to myself, it's in a sort of "I'm in charge here. I'm the alpha dog." kinda way. I work by controlling the atmosphere around me and letting spin do most of the work. I used to try to debate with reason and I still do sometimes when I'm bored... But I've witnessed way too many unreasonable people to give a shit. If I spin, I have control.

Damn... Everything I do is to sieze some sort of control. Maybe I'm an Eight? Is there such a thing as an unassertive Eight?

The reason I picked Nine is because I relate to the sleepy acedia part. For the longest time, it felt and still feels like someone else is controlling my actions and who I am. It's sort of like a puppetmaster controlling the strings. I was so ready to be who society and everyone else wanted me to be that who I was... was irrelevant. I started realizing it when I read Type 9 and just rolled with it because I knew something in that was right.

But anyone else notice most of the Enneagram types sound like symptoms of various disorders? Like for example 4, 5, and 9 sound a lot like depression? Just an observation.


----------



## 0+n*1

Sara Torailles said:


> So, like, no one is gonna respond to this. Motherfuckers.
> 
> Sigh... Ignored for a guy whose surname is "I'm a gay" spelled backwards.


Clever.


----------



## Sara Torailles

0+n*1 said:


> Clever.


I mean, with all the yaoi of them both, someone somewhere desperately wants it to be true.


----------



## Paradigm

Kipposhi said:


> I'd be interested in hearing some perspectives on this, for anyone who has been involved. (I'm particularly curious as to whether RH have revised their ideas since the original publication of _Wisdom_ and _PT_.)


I'm pretty sure @tanstaafl28 does offline stuff, but I can't remember if it's RH-based or not :blushed:


----------



## Figure

Kipposhi said:


> But I'm glad you guys are speaking out about it. People mainly want to bust stereotypes around 6, but I'm seriously starting to think EVERY TYPE needs some serious myth-busting, at least on the online community. Seven is a cause close to my heart. (Or head, as it were).



YES!!!!! Bingo. Bullseye. Winner. Totally agree. 

This may be taking what you said one notch beyond your point, but I've wanted to literally blast out how tired I am of people making it sound like type 6 is the only misunderstood type, and how much more type 6 needs to be re-explained or re-written than the other types. That's crap, they are ALL, WIDELY misinterpreted, both by people on the forum, AND by people who are allegedly "experts" in the theory (in many cases because they write a lot on it).

I really, really, REALLY think the source of this is reliance on beginning to understand type using external traits, and a misunderstanding of the codified terminology of the theory (for example, "gluttony" for 7's is not literally eating a lot). The theory wasn't designed to be so simple as to say "if you're happy all the time, you may be a 7." If it was, it wouldn't be telling you anything dynamic about your ego-structure. You have to really understand, almost from a developmental POV, how each type's defensive strategy is designed to be effective/ineffective in the real world, and how the core fear drives it, mechanically.

Simply saying "person X comes off as happy" or "person Y thinks they are deep" or "you are not aggressive enough to be an 8" and suggesting to them to look at 7 or 4 or something other than 8 makes absolutely no sense to me, and completely ignores the underlying logic on which the theory was constructed.


----------



## mushr00m

Figure said:


> YES!!!!! Bingo. Bullseye. Winner. Totally agree.
> 
> This may be taking what you said one notch beyond your point, but I've wanted to literally blast out how tired I am of people making it sound like type 6 is the only misunderstood type, and how much more type 6 needs to be re-explained or re-written than the other types. That's crap, they are ALL, WIDELY misinterpreted, both by people on the forum, AND by people who are allegedly "experts" in the theory (in many cases because they write a lot on it).


Yup, this 6 is bored of it too. You have to make it a point of discussion though, other types that is.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Figure said:


> YES!!!!! Bingo. Bullseye. Winner. Totally agree.
> 
> This may be taking what you said one notch beyond your point, but I've wanted to literally blast out how tired I am of people making it sound like type 6 is the only misunderstood type, and how much more type 6 needs to be re-explained or re-written than the other types. That's crap, they are ALL, WIDELY misinterpreted, both by people on the forum, AND by people who are allegedly "experts" in the theory (in many cases because they write a lot on it).
> 
> I really, really, REALLY think the source of this is reliance on beginning to understand type using external traits, and a misunderstanding of the codified terminology of the theory (for example, "gluttony" for 7's is not literally eating a lot). The theory wasn't designed to be so simple as to say "if you're happy all the time, you may be a 7." If it was, it wouldn't be telling you anything dynamic about your ego-structure. You have to really understand, almost from a developmental POV, how each type's defensive strategy is designed to be effective/ineffective in the real world, and how the core fear drives it, mechanically.
> 
> Simply saying "person X comes off as happy" or "person Y thinks they are deep" or "you are not aggressive enough to be an 8" and suggesting to them to look at 7 or 4 or something other than 8 makes absolutely no sense to me, and completely ignores the underlying logic on which the theory was constructed.


Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Whole post. Strongly agree.

Even the authors "don't get it" sometimes. A lot of times. They _aren't_ those other types, after all. I couldn't figure myself out for somewhere on the order of years mostly because of idiotic forum myths...but also partly because established experts don't know what it's like to be my type. (My own denial and resistance were a part of this as well, of course, but you get what I'm trying to say here). Maitri basically had to say, _Look idiot, this is the way you experience life as a Type X_ for me to actually get it and be willing to explore it.

And that's what type is about...how you experience life. Your psychological background. It's exactly as you say...underlying mechanisms. In my case, I've acted counter-to-stereotype pretty much my whole life...yet it was still done using the same mechanisms and defenses, for the same reasons. It was almost tragic to figure that out.

I also agree type 6 unfairly has had a bad rap--a lot of times it gets unfairly compared to other types, even by professionals. People have treated the type...laughably...on forums at times. And again, I'm glad people are eager to bust the stereotypes. But I almost feel like I'm not allowed to say _anything about_ the type--almost as though everyone's _waiting_ for you to say something about it to tell you how you don't understand the type. I don't like to comment on type 6 anymore or share my observations, since it only seems to end badly. I think I understand the type, but no one quite realizes that.

And I have to be honest, many of the naysayers seem to be 6s themselves. I know 6 is a variegated type, but I am starting to feel (based on my own experience), before you say "I don't do that", or "type X doesn't always _____", it is wise to ask oneself, How _does_ this apply to me? Maybe not as it's written literally, but maybe these observations exist for a reason. I think a fair look at oneself in light of the material (even if it seems "incorrect" or untrue of the individual somehow) and an assessment of what that really means and how that actually plays out... is probably the best way to go about busting stereotypes. (And I intended that last paragraph for every type, not just 6, of course).

But that's just me.



mushr00m said:


> Yup, this 6 is bored of it too. You have to make it a point of discussion though, other types that is.


I'll shift the focus to my own type, when I'm ready. Let's make the 6 issue a thing of the past. For now, I'm keenly interested in the 7s.


----------



## Kisshoten

Kipposhi said:


> I'll shift the focus to my own type, when I'm ready. Let's make the 6 issue a thing of the past. For now, I'm keenly interested in the 7s.


In that case, consider this an invitation to help me figure out my heart fix. 

I tell you all that you may want to know from a 7 pov in exchange for any insights.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> In that case, consider this an invitation to help me figure out my heart fix.
> 
> I tell you all that you may want to know from a 7 pov in exchange for any insights.


Right here, right now?

OK.

Hmm...well first tell me which parts of each you can identify with. Anything you want--the behaviors or the mindsets. And why aren't you sure about it? Conflicting signals? No identification with any of them? We'll work from there.


----------



## Kisshoten

Kipposhi said:


> Right here, right now?
> 
> OK.
> 
> Hmm...well first tell me which parts of each you can identify with. Anything you want--the behaviors or the mindsets. And why aren't you sure about it? Conflicting signals? No identification with any of them? We'll work from there.


Right now is good. Right here, eh... probably not. 

Although, if you do wish for it to be on PerC, we could always talk over PM. 

In any case, I believe you have read some of the drivel I've posted here. 
That's a head start, I guess.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> Right now is good. Right here, eh... probably not.
> 
> Although, if you do wish for it to be on PerC, we could always talk over PM.
> 
> In any case, I believe you have read some of the drivel I've posted here.
> That's a head start, I guess.


Hey yeah. If ever you want to talk about it, send me a PM. That's the only way I'm accessible. 

My days are empty, free, and lonely right now, so I have the time and boredom necessary to crack a typing case. I'll do whatever I can to help ya brainstorm.


----------



## Kisshoten

Kipposhi said:


> Hey yeah. If ever you want to talk about it, send me a PM. That's the only way I'm accessible.
> 
> *My days are empty, free, and lonely right now*, so I have the time and boredom necessary to crack a typing case. I'll do whatever I can to help ya brainstorm.


this made me lol so much. it is similar to mine... minus the videogames and the procrastination on stuff that needs to be done...


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

alright, all you peeps bugging me about typing at 5 finally convinced me and reopened the can of worms. I decided to drop it for the following reasons
1) every 5 I know has terrible intuition and very little common sense, and doesn't trust it even when they do have it. this is often how I tell apart the real 5s from Sp 8s, 1s and more intellectually inclined 7s or Sp 3s. in fact, it is precisely this lack of intuition which makes them so prone to analyzing in the first place. 
2) 5s are externally dry, even the more sensitive Sx 5s. they are full of intense feeling and iconoclastic tendencies under the surface, but externally....nah. most 5s have trouble even projecting their voices.
3) 5s are exceedingly careful personalities. 
4) I am not a competency type by any stretch of the imagination. even the Sexual 5s I've known are much more competency oriented than I am. granted, nearly a decade of a lifestyle full of debating pseudo-intellectual NTs has forced me to brush up on my research skills and make a point without sounding like an uneducated dumbass (most of the time lol), but thorough research and precision bore the absolute shit out of me and have never been my forte. 
5) as I'm sure most of you know, my childhood-teens were a mess of anger, entitlement and narcissistic tantrums. there was almost no deliberate thinking involved at all until around 20 or so


at the moment, it looks like I'm some sort of 7w8/2w1. I relate to more of the neuroses of 7, but none of the subtypes. on the other hand, Sexual 2w1 fits nicely, except that they are much more emotional and extremely anti-intellectual personalities. the former is probably a little more likely, but I just can't get around that damn Sx 7 description (which does not fit at all) and it needs the 8 wing for me to really buy it (because I don't see much of myself in almost any of the 7w6s I know, who have a much more nervous-yet-charming energy and are less prone to welcome conflict). as with previously, the main dilemma is deciphering the Rosetta Stone which is the many contradictory descriptions posited by various Enneagram experts (hence my reluctance to really dive into trying to find my type again).


PS: @Kipposhi .....wow, I thought you were the same person as @Vergil and just changed your name. that entire analysis I gave you previously was based on my thinking you were Virgil. sorry about that :laughing:


----------



## Kisshoten

Swordsman of Mana said:


> PS: @_Kipposhi_ .....wow, I thought you were the same person as @_Vergil_ and just changed your name. that entire analysis I gave you previously was based on my thinking you were Virgil. sorry about that :laughing:


hahahaa...

I must be a very.. forgettable person.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Vergil said:


> hahahaa...
> 
> I must be a very.. forgettable person.


not at all, you just seemed strikingly similar lol


----------



## Kisshoten

Swordsman of Mana said:


> not at all, you just seemed strikingly similar lol


Direct me to that analysis, by the way... i'd like to see what you saw xD


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

@Swordsman of Mana You're not the first one to mix us up. No worries. I take that whole thing as a compliment, since I see her as one of the more astute commentors here. I appreciate your sharing my thoughts with me regardless, even if I did have to shoot them down. Any time, friend. 

@Vergil. I'm forgettable too. I always get mixed up for other people. Given how much I generally stand out with my not-so-inner weirdness, I'm not sure how it happens.


----------



## Kintsugi

@Vergil @Kipposhi

I momentarily thought were the same person a while back, as well. xD


----------



## Darkbloom

Same :laughing:


----------



## DomNapoleon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> at the moment, it looks like I'm some sort of 7w8/2w1. I relate to more of the neuroses of 7, but none of the subtypes.


That's because subtypes should be reviewed and their descriptions AREN'T accurate. I don't relate at all to the social 6 subtype (strangely i relate more to the social 5). But that's the main idea.


----------



## Kisshoten

Might as well call myself Kipposhi from now on. If only to see whether it confuses people that there is not one, but two of Kipposhi.

But then again, people might think there are two Vergils around.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Am I the only one who _didn't_ confuse the two of them


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

Vergil said:


> Might as well call myself Kipposhi from now on. If only to see whether it confuses people that there is not one, but two of Kipposhi.
> 
> But then again, people might think there are two Vergils around.


LET'S TRADE NAMES!!

Or use completely different ones and not tell them which is which!

It's like having an identical twin! Just because you see us in the same room, doesn't mean we're not the same person...


----------



## Sara Torailles

Kipposhi said:


> LET'S TRADE NAMES!!
> 
> Or use completely different ones and not tell them which is which!
> 
> It's like having an identical twin! Just because you see us in the same room, doesn't mean we're not the same person...


You both would have to use the same profile pic to better the ruse.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

How uncommon is ISFJ 9?


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

alittlebear said:


> How uncommon is ISFJ 9?


I know an ISFJ 9. Given that I hardly know _any_one, I'd say that it's not all that rare.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> How uncommon is ISFJ 9?


This almost sounds like a joke but I'm not sure whether you're joking or not XD

I think almost everyone knows at least one ISFJ 9 tbh
But if you're an ISFJ then perhaps I'm mistyping those "ISFJs" XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> This almost sounds like a joke but I'm not sure whether you're joking or not XD
> 
> I think almost everyone knows at least one ISFJ 9 tbh
> But if you're an ISFJ then perhaps I'm mistyping those "ISFJs" XD


I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I've mostly seen 9 associated with Fi, so I wasn't sure. (I think it's a very Pi type as well, so I think ISFJ would fit well with it. But I wanted to be sure.) 

I know though! I feel so bad like rediscovering I might be a different type altogether because so many people have listened to my stupid Ni ramblings? Gah.


----------



## Golden Rose

@Swordsman of Mana

Nice breakdown of type 5, although I wouldn't say the intuition of a 5 is terrible.
It's just something that tends to be kept as background noise or made concrete through research.

7w8 2w1 1w2 seems to work for you. 
There's a lot of lines to 1 in your tritype but you're too intentionally indulgent to be a 1 core.

@alittlebear
It's quite common, actually.

SiFe and type 9 have a lot in common, including seeking external harmony and holding back strong opinions unless there's a genuine outrage. 9w1s can be even more critical than 1w9s as they often don't acknowledge it as such but it takes a lot for them to reach that stage and they often apologize or withdraw if things get too intense for their liking.

I've noticed that you get more indignant when something could potentially offend others or triggers some past emotional memory which fits quite nicely with the cognitive processes of an ISFJ.

I can't really see you as a 2, you lack their prideful, seductive attitudes and their concealed jealousy/entitlement. It's in your tritype but just as a fix.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I've mostly seen 9 associated with Fi, so I wasn't sure. (I think it's a very Pi type as well, so I think ISFJ would fit well with it. But I wanted to be sure.)
> 
> I know though! I feel so bad like rediscovering I might be a different type altogether because so many people have listened to my stupid Ni ramblings? Gah.


Haha,I thought so but wanted to make sure too XD
I personally have a hard time distinguishing 9 from ISFJ,even some descriptions can sound so similar

And I just started believing MBTI is not _that_ difficult:frustrating:
I still think you're Ni,but who knows,I don't even know my type XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Shamy I'm trying to think of something faux seductive to say in response to my lack of seductive 2 nature but I've got nothing 

Hmmm.. We are discussing how I'm probably an ISFJ on my thread now, and I am warming up to the idea (although @Living dead is not  ), but... I'm just hesitant to type based on my emotional response due to past experiences being triggered. I can't remember if I've always done it, and usually when I do it it is because I've had some traumatic thing triggered. (I think I've always done it, though? Like I defended victims of bullying because I was, I defend certain behaviors because I know people in my family so have them, or because I've read books with people like that... Hmm.) 

Thank you for your response, though. This could make a lot of sense, me as an ISFJ 9, I think. 

I have something to add about me and 2s but I think I'll wait a little while before adding that.

LD - if I'm not ENFJ I think that you still very much could be <3


----------



## mimesis

Mandraque said:


> That's because subtypes should be reviewed and their descriptions AREN'T accurate. I don't relate at all to the social 6 subtype (strangely i relate more to the social 5). But that's the main idea.


Oh please, get a grip on *yourself* before accusing *authorities*. That intolerance to ambiguity, comes from a need of something secure and steadfast (and generally accepted as true or right/wrong) to cling to (so6). For instance, I don't agree with parts of what is published, but the fun is that you can debate and exchange insight and experiential knowledge. I don't claim Truth (and I don't seek Truth) but offer my view. Something I rely on. If you or the whole bloody world disagrees, that's fine. I don't mind. When for instance I refer to Naranjo or others, it's because I share their view and insight, not because I take it as factual or Truth, or like a bible to guide me free from harm.


----------



## Golden Rose

@alittlebear

I've coincidentally glanced over your thread, earlier during breakfast and I can see you as SFJ.

There's a lot of Si in your wording, reactions and mannerisms rather than tertiary Se (@Living dead is a lot more conform to the cognitive patterns of an ENFJ and tertiary functions can occasionally seem particularly strong while being developed). 

Obviously, I don't know you as a person, I'm going by the theory and my own observations.

As for type 2, I tend to disregard Riso and Hudson for the most part.

I disagree with a large chunk of their theories, methods and associations, Naranjo might be over dramatic but I prefer his model (as well as Maitri, Chestnut, occasionally Ichazo). Type 2 and type 9 seem to have merged into similar definitions, mostly differentiated by 'Fe-dom vs Fi-dom' but truth is, their aims and fears are extremely different.

2s don't want to be loved out of agape or genuine martyrdom, they are a lot more self serving than that.
All heart types are 'selfish' in their motivations, not because they can't have empathy or the best interest of others in mind, but rather because their core drive is "being loved, being admired" (2s because they give others what they want, 3s for their achievements and competency, 4s for who they are as a person and their flaws).

Type 9 is a lot more selfless.

They seek harmony, they avoid excessive efforts, they simply want to find their place in the world by absorbing the reality around them and avoiding taking strong stances. A 9 will have a really hard time making most decisions as nothing seems particularly important to them, or at least not important enough to risk causing a rumble or being excluded/confronted.

2's philosophy = "You should love me because I'm such an amazing person. You don't? I'll make you."
9's philosophy = "As long as you're happy, so am I. I wish you liked me but it's ok if you don't."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Shamy I forget that my thread is huge and buzzing with activity and that a lot of people not participating are peeping  

Also, agreed about @Living dead. She has the Se, and she might not show the Ni but... The Se is certainly there, I think. Regardless, she seems more like am Fe-dom that I could ever be. 

The way you're describing 2s and 9s... Obviously I'm relating more to 9. I mean, with confidence I do think I deserve to be loved, but... I'm much more 9, on whole. And my love is much more resemblant of agape love than it is of... whatever the love you described for 2 is. 

(And, well... I am very okay with taking strong stances... Just as long as I'm surrounded by people who also share my strong stances, and know that I won't be thrown alone into a pit of people who disagree with me anytime soon... and that my strong stance is the right strong stance.) 

What I was going to say about 2s is... I think of 2s as... (Here comes the Si) First week of ninth grade. We went around the room and talked about ourselves, and I'm always... well, "modest" is the word, but I think I'm also just truthful. I am not... anything spectacular, you know? I mean, I am, to some people, but my Fe doesn't let me assert myself as something I don't think people agree with me as (especially with my self consciousness). 

But this one girl... Gosh, it shouldn't have rubbed me the wrong way so much and stuck with me. Looking back, I know she was just describing herself and it wasn't a major character flaw or anything, but she said, "I am a generous person. When I see someone without a pencil, I give them my pencil. And then I'm the one without a pencil!"

And then everyone associated her as the generous, altruistic person. 

And... I mean... To me it bugged me because bragging about how selfless you are isn't selfless. I know now it's not hypocritical but at the time it seemed hypocritical to me. I would do the same thing, but like I'm not going to tell people how I do that! It's so... self commanding, or something! Now I realize she just probably had some strong 2 and I strong 9, but I still get annoyed when people announce their own virtues (especially altruistic virtues).


----------



## Darkbloom

You definitely fit "The ISFJ 9" but you actually being that changes everything XD

But yeah,if I were you I'd definitely settle on 9w1,that one is definitely very you and goes with your values perfectly.
As for ISFJ...I'm not convinced yet, but I realize it's not impossible,far from impossible.I think it's good to take your circumstances as well as type 9 into account(but there _is_ such thing as Fe dom 9,right?)

As for my type...:laughing:
Few weeks ago I was convincing a person that I do NOT use Si and now I'm the one who thinks I do use Si and others keep seeing Se XD
I have to bump my thread but tbh I'm tired of bumping my threads,it's always the same in the end lol


----------



## Darkbloom

Btw that girl sounds so annoying lol,that's why I sometimes avoid being helped by certain kinds of people,I just refuse being part of it XD
What does that make me?


----------



## Vaka

I've been wondering if I could possibly have a 7 fix. Altho I don't feel the healer(479) archetype fits me. I'm much more prone to taking away and making things mine than giving to reality to see myself as much of a healer. I imagine I'm more a destructive force than anything. But I can't shake so much that is at least superficially 7ish about me. I tend to not feel I have an effect at all on people and when I do, it surprises me. My attempts at helping people tend to be clumsy at best. But I've been told I influence people positively with my words sometimes


----------



## dreamingthroughlife

I am another person who is trying to figure out if I am a Nine or a Two. I tested as a Two in that simple little Enneagram test I found online where you choose 'banners' with collages of pictures that most fit you. But I'm not sure. I'm not the type to hang on to people or demand attention. Like this quote by Shamy upthread:

_2's philosophy = "You should love me because I'm such an amazing person. You don't? I'll make you."
9's philosophy = "As long as you're happy, so am I. I wish you liked me but it's ok if you don't." 
_

Looking at these, I'd identify more with the 9. When friendships with other women don't last, and it seems like they don't care to spend much time talking to me, I just do a fade out and let it slide. I don't wheedle or demand, and I hate drama. I DO see a lot of 2 traits in me, especially how I relate to my kids. I do get jealous and feel bad when I'm not appreciated. Hmm, just not sure either!


----------



## Darkbloom

dreamingthroughlife said:


> I am another person who is trying to figure out if I am a Nine or a Two. I tested as a Two in that simple little Enneagram test I found online where you choose 'banners' with collages of pictures that most fit you. But I'm not sure. I'm not the type to hang on to people or demand attention. Like this quote:
> 
> _2's philosophy = "You should love me because I'm such an amazing person. You don't? I'll make you."
> 9's philosophy = "As long as you're happy, so am I. I wish you liked me but it's ok if you don't."
> _
> 
> Looking at these, I'd identify more with the 9. When friendships with other women don't last, and it seems like they don't care to spend much time talking to me, I just do a fade out and let it slide. I don't wheedle or demand, and I hate drama. I do see a lot of 2 traits in me, especially how I relate to my kids.


You always seemed 9-ish to me


----------



## Paradigm

lycanized said:


> Altho I don't feel the healer(479) archetype fits me. I'm much more prone to taking away and making things mine than giving to reality to see myself as much of a healer.


The tritype descriptions are usually bunk and are one of the worst typing tools possible. 479 is the _most _bunk one, IMO. I have insufficient words for how much I disagree with it.



> I imagine I'm more a destructive force than anything.


Destructive how?


----------



## Vaka

Paradigm said:


> The tritype descriptions are usually bunk and are one of the worst typing tools possible. 479 is the _most _bunk one, IMO. I have insufficient words for how much I disagree with it.
> 
> 
> Destructive how?



I'd describe myself as one to bleed things dry, which is why I often associate myself with vampires. Like I'll take all I can emotionally from them as it's just my desire. This can be as simple as listening to a song over and over until it almost sounds like white noise, or it can be something more intellectual and complex. I don't think my mind is really able to stay with how things just are, and in taking things in, I make them mine and I conceptualize them in ways that might have nothing really to do with what others might consider realistic or worthwhile. It can seem destructive because it destroys what 'is'. Ultimately I think I feel what 'is' is an illusion 

I think...the 'healer' archetype descriptions have more of a vibe of somehow being settled and at peace with what's around them, working with it and influencing it positively. I've had more of a tendency to see what's around me as meaningless or lacking in something. I've had more of a tendency to see what people do as meaningless and blank. I've had more of a tendency to not feel so one with everything. i've had more of a tendency to rationalize being lost in my own world rather than seeing the one around me as being substantial and real. You're probably right with the archetype descriptions being lame, though

I suppose creativity and destruction really do go hand in hand. Instead of destroying things and just sitting there to watch them, I create things for myself. Reality and meaning. Behind it is partially a strong desire to understand which is a bit of how it pushed me in other directions since 7 descriptions don't usually talk about that kind of thing


----------



## Kisshoten

Kipposhi said:


> LET'S TRADE NAMES!!
> 
> Or use completely different ones and not tell them which is which!
> 
> It's like having an identical twin! Just because you see us in the same room, doesn't mean we're not the same person...


Good idea. 

But we must confer in private if this scheme is to bring us any lulz.


----------



## narfae

Could I possibly be mistyped? I am at a loss. I have been typed as 874, 784... and could even be a sexual 4 or a counterphobic 6.


----------



## Paradigm

@lycanized
In your post, I thought there was a lot of nihilism and... I want to use the word obsession, but not in a bad way. (I'm pretty obsessive, too.) A lot of it sounded SX to me, so I'm thinking most of it could be your SX/SP stacking. Not all of it, but most.

I'm not very up-to-date on 7 SX/SP; I'd need to do some more research. Perhaps 7(-fixer)s here can weigh in? I could see 7 doing the "bleed things dry" more than a 5-fixer would, at least. But the nihilism is stereotypically 5; I'm genuinely unsure how 7s react to or perceive nihilism. Or it could be depression?

---

Went on a rant about 479, realized it was a rant, and decided to move it to its own section:



> I think...the 'healer' archetype descriptions have more of a vibe of somehow being settled and at peace with what's around them, working with it and influencing it positively.


Nope, disagree entirely xD I've known two 479s (a 794 and 947, specifically) and they're both kind of narcissistic, actually. While they definitely do the whole authenticity and identity thing, they also shy away from the dark and hard thinking parts in the stereotypical "positive outlook" manner. It's like you have to be the one to bring it up and stay on the subject, otherwise they won't -- but when you do, they're surprisingly good at it. It's just... fleeting, and they're kinda flighty. And in my opinion, something _that_ fleeting cannot heal, it merely placates, or soothes. However, it certainly doesn't make things worse.

That being said... The 947 was an immensely good influence on me. But I could never see him as a "healer," at all. Nor a fairy or spiritual or whatever* the description says, idk. He was sensitive and very tolerant, but that's about it.

* To think of the 794 in these terms is hilarious, btw. He's very masculine and would laugh his ass off at the archetype description. It's extremely inaccurate.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

_2's philosophy = "You should love me because I'm such an amazing person. You don't? I'll make you."
9's philosophy = "As long as you're happy, so am I. I wish you liked me but it's ok if you don't." 

_Well, that's certainly not a take on 9 I can relate to, heh.


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> _2's philosophy = "You should love me because I'm such an amazing person. You don't? I'll make you."
> 9's philosophy = "As long as you're happy, so am I. I wish you liked me but it's ok if you don't."
> 
> _Well, that's certainly not a take on 9 I can relate to, heh.


Didn't you type at 6 a while back? At least, that's how I remember it.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vergil said:


> Didn't you type at 6 a while back? At least, that's how I remember it.


Yeah, but now I'm not sure.  Been considering if 9 could make more sense in some ways (though the types are also connected, so some similarities might be there).


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

lycanized said:


> I've been wondering if I could possibly have a 7 fix. Altho I don't feel the healer(479) archetype fits me. I'm much more prone to taking away and making things mine than giving to reality to see myself as much of a healer. I imagine I'm more a destructive force than anything. But I can't shake so much that is at least superficially 7ish about me. I tend to not feel I have an effect at all on people and when I do, it surprises me. My attempts at helping people tend to be clumsy at best. But I've been told I influence people positively with my words sometimes


I could see you with a 7w8 fix, but you seem more 4w5 than 4w3 to me.


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> Yeah, but now I'm not sure. * Been considering if 9 could make more sense in some ways* (though the types are also connected, so some similarities might be there).


What ways? How does 6 not make sense in those ways?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vergil said:


> What ways? How does 6 not make sense in those ways?


Well, now it might take me some effort to regather my thoughts (early in the day too, heh), but... For one thing it's kinda weird to see myself as a head-type as I often feel like I don't really think much, heh.


----------



## ElliCat

Paradigm said:


> Nope, disagree entirely xD I've known two 479s (a 794 and 947, specifically) and they're both kind of narcissistic, actually. While they definitely do the whole authenticity and identity thing, they also shy away from the dark and hard thinking parts in the stereotypical "positive outlook" manner. It's like you have to be the one to bring it up and stay on the subject, otherwise they won't -- but when you do, they're surprisingly good at it. It's just... fleeting, and they're kinda flighty. And in my opinion, something _that_ fleeting cannot heal, it merely placates, or soothes. However, it certainly doesn't make things worse.


_*Thank you.*_ I've always seen myself as too shallow and flighty to be a healer, and that archetype description annoys the crap out of me. I guess with a 4 in the lead I'm a bit more likely to dwell in the dark and hard thinking parts, but once I'm over it? Good luck keeping me tied down.

I do seem to make people feel better when they talk to me. It's easy to validate their feelings, and often that's all they want. I just don't know how much it truly _heals_ in the long-term.


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> Well, now it might take me some effort to regather my thoughts (early in the day too, heh), but... For one thing it's kinda weird to see myself as a head-type as I often feel like I don't really think much, heh.


Take your time. 
As for what it feels like.. ha.. where should I begin. I always thought I was head, but I was still convinced that I was a gut type for about a year. That's saying something about "feels."


----------



## fair phantom

Maybe some of you intelligent people can help me. What are the best descriptions of instinctual variants + type combinations? Because I thought I was sx/so, until I read this:



> Sexual 4: Competition/ Hate
> Sexual Fours compete with others of their own sex in their attempt to find love. Their competitiveness is based n a sense that love is scarce and so it needs to be fought for. They try to convince their rivals and the object of their affection that they are better than the competition, and their wish to "disappear" their challengers is a form of hatred. The choice of object of desire is determined by how many other people want that person, so that, too, arises out of competition. Sexual Fours are not only competitive in the relationship arena - competition is their dominant behavioral characteristic - but it is there that it is most pronounced. The passion of envy manifests here as wanting someone another has or desires and in their underlying hatred of their rivals.


I don't see this in myself. So I switched to so/sx, but I'm wondering if my understanding of Sx 4 is just wrong?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vergil said:


> Take your time.
> As for what it feels like.. ha.. where should I begin. I always thought I was head, but I was still convinced that I was a gut type for about a year. That's saying something about "feels."


Why were you convinced of that?

@_fair phantom_
Well, I'm not sure what the best descriptions are, because while I think descriptions can be a fair starting point, part of it is also piecing together what makes most sense to you. What were your reasons for thinking Sx/So in the first place?


----------



## fair phantom

Nonsense said:


> Why were you convinced of that?
> 
> @_fair phantom_
> Well, I'm not sure what the best descriptions are, because while I think descriptions can be a fair starting point, part of it is also piecing together what makes most sense to you. What were your reasons for thinking Sx/So in the first place?


 well most quizzes gave me sx/so, though one gave me so/sx. I think my passions/interest and my close relationships are what get most of my attention. But that may just be 4ishness in general? or introversion? I could relate quite a bit to so/sx descriptions.


----------



## Vaka

Paradigm said:


> @_lycanized_
> In your post, I thought there was a lot of nihilism and... I want to use the word obsession, but not in a bad way. (I'm pretty obsessive, too.) A lot of it sounded SX to me, so I'm thinking most of it could be your SX/SP stacking. Not all of it, but most.
> 
> I'm not very up-to-date on 7 SX/SP; I'd need to do some more research. Perhaps 7(-fixer)s here can weigh in? I could see 7 doing the "bleed things dry" more than a 5-fixer would, at least. But the nihilism is stereotypically 5; I'm genuinely unsure how 7s react to or perceive nihilism. Or it could be depression?
> 
> ---
> 
> Went on a rant about 479, realized it was a rant, and decided to move it to its own section:
> 
> 
> Nope, disagree entirely xD I've known two 479s (a 794 and 947, specifically) and they're both kind of narcissistic, actually. While they definitely do the whole authenticity and identity thing, they also shy away from the dark and hard thinking parts in the stereotypical "positive outlook" manner. It's like you have to be the one to bring it up and stay on the subject, otherwise they won't -- but when you do, they're surprisingly good at it. It's just... fleeting, and they're kinda flighty. And in my opinion, something _that_ fleeting cannot heal, it merely placates, or soothes. However, it certainly doesn't make things worse.
> 
> That being said... The 947 was an immensely good influence on me. But I could never see him as a "healer," at all. Nor a fairy or spiritual or whatever* the description says, idk. He was sensitive and very tolerant, but that's about it.
> 
> * To think of the 794 in these terms is hilarious, btw. He's very masculine and would laugh his ass off at the archetype description. It's extremely inaccurate.


'
Yeah I'd love to hear how 7s/7fixers experience that too. And I don't feel I shy away from dark things or hard thinking, but there could be other things that account for that. Actually I sometimes have to tone that down for people, ime, but I can have my flighty moments too. Like my friend told me my mind can go in many different directions so it gets confusing to follow some of what I write



Swordsman of Mana said:


> I could see you with a 7w8 fix, but you seem more 4w5 than 4w3 to me.


Lol, no one sees the 4w3 it seems, why 4w5? And 7w8 for that matter? Would you see that over a 5 fix? Those are the two I'm going between


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## Paradigm

ElliCat said:


> _*Thank you.*_ I've always seen myself as too shallow and flighty to be a healer, and that archetype description annoys the crap out of me. I guess with a 4 in the lead I'm a bit more likely to dwell in the dark and hard thinking parts, but once I'm over it? Good luck keeping me tied down.
> 
> I do seem to make people feel better when they talk to me. It's easy to validate their feelings, and often that's all they want. I just don't know how much it truly _heals_ in the long-term.


I'm a little unsure of some of my wording there, primarily the "narcissistic" and "avoids hard thinking." The 947 was less of a thinker and not too narcissistic, while the 794 is both a thinker and narcissistic (but also helpful and very personable).

But neither give off the vibe that they want to listen to the dark stuff. The vibe I get from both is that it's okay to dwell and ruminate, but _not_ okay to verbalize any of it. Complaining "ruins the atmosphere," I guess? Like, once you verbalize the problem it's suddenly A Thing, whereas being silent allowed you to pretend otherwise. Do you feel similarly? (Tbf they're both SOC-heavy, might influence things.)

Kinda opposite to me... I get a lot of comfort from complaining and finding solutions with others. (Merely being validated does nothing for me.)


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> Why were you convinced of that?
> 
> @_fair phantom_
> Well, I'm not sure what the best descriptions are, because while I think descriptions can be a fair starting point, part of it is also piecing together what makes most sense to you. What were your reasons for thinking Sx/So in the first place?


Because of all the anger and the stereotype that 7s are too chill to be pissed.


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## d e c a d e n t

Vergil said:


> Because of all the anger and the stereotype that 7s are too chill to be pissed.


Right, ahah. I actually don't feel too chill myself, and I can be fairly anxious, but... I don't resonate much with existential anxiety.


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> Right, ahah. I actually don't feel too chill myself, and I can be fairly anxious, but... I don't resonate much with existential anxiety.


Why _did_ you type at 6 then?


----------



## fair phantom

Paradigm said:


> I'm a little unsure of some of my wording there, primarily the "narcissistic" and "avoids hard thinking." The 947 was less of a thinker and not too narcissistic, while the 794 is both a thinker and narcissistic (but also helpful and very personable).
> 
> But neither give off the vibe that they want to listen to the dark stuff. The vibe I get from both is that it's okay to dwell and ruminate, but _not_ okay to verbalize any of it. Complaining "ruins the atmosphere," I guess? Like, once you verbalize the problem it's suddenly A Thing, whereas being silent allowed you to pretend otherwise. Do you feel similarly? (Tbf they're both SOC-heavy, might influence things.)
> 
> Kinda opposite to me... I get a lot of comfort from complaining and finding solutions with others. (Merely being validated does nothing for me.)


Hmm I have no problem dealing with dark stuff. I think about "dark stuff" lot actually and I am there for my friends when they are in bad places. It is just for myself I've found there comes a time when thinking about dark things ceases to have any benefit and feels self-indulgent (not sure if this is the best word). If I am helpless in a situation, I find it is better not to brood and to find reasons to live on.

But then I'm not certain regarding my body/gut fix. Maybe I'm a 471 or 478.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

fair phantom said:


> well most quizzes gave me sx/so, though one gave me so/sx. I think my passions/interest and my close relationships are what get most of my attention. But that may just be 4ishness in general? or introversion? I could relate quite a bit to so/sx descriptions.


I'm not terribly familiar with your posts, but in my experience, it's far more common for Social 4 to mistype as Sexual 4 than the other way around. in general, Sexual 4 is a largely _anti_social personality who is likely to look more like 3 or 8 (more specifically, what people _think_ 3s look like. actual 3s are far more dry and down to earth). Social 4s, particularly with strong Sexual, can relate strongly to the longing, "hungry" aspect to the Sx instinct, and tend to be passionate about their hobbies.

additionally, imo, So/Sx and Sx/Sp are generally the most "relationship" oriented stackings, both in their own way (though it can vary tremendously depending on the subtype. 5 Sx/So and 9 Sx/So are generally going to be far more relationship oriented than 8 Sx/Sp or 3 So/Sx)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vergil said:


> Why _did_ you type at 6 then?


Because uncertainty is what trips me up the most in life. I mean, it's _really _bad, to the point where it feels I'm forever in a prison of my own uncertainty. And lol, all that validation-seek. =P Besides that, I also feel pretty reactive, but I don't always care to express it because it seems foolish... but then I thought, if I _disintegrate _to a reactive type, maybe that's why I see the reactivity negatively? Well, I feel I've also been surrounded by a lot of over-the-top reactivity in life, which annoyed me, but then I identified with it because merging or something. >_>

@_Swordsman of Mana_
Wtf, that avatar.


----------



## fair phantom

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm not terribly familiar with your posts, but in my experience, it's far more common for Social 4 to mistype as Sexual 4 than the other way around. in general, Sexual 4 is a largely _anti_social personality who is likely to look more like 3 or 8 (more specifically, what people _think_ 3s look like. actual 3s are far more dry and down to earth). Social 4s, particularly with strong Sexual, can relate strongly to the longing, "hungry" aspect to the Sx instinct, and tend to be passionate about their hobbies.
> 
> additionally, imo, So/Sx and Sx/Sp are generally the most "relationship" oriented stackings, both in their own way (though it can vary tremendously depending on the subtype. 5 Sx/So and 9 Sx/So are generally going to be far more relationship oriented than 8 Sx/Sp or 3 So/Sx)


I highly doubt anyone would mistake me for a 3 or 8, at least as a core type. I laughed a bit at the thought. What you've written makes so/sx seem far more likely. Thank you.


----------



## ElliCat

lycanized said:


> Yeah I'd love to hear how 7s/7fixers experience that too. And I don't feel I shy away from dark things or hard thinking, but there could be other things that account for that. Actually I sometimes have to tone that down for people, ime, but I can have my flighty moments too. Like my friend told me my mind can go in many different directions so it gets confusing to follow some of what I write


I always thought people not being able to follow my trail of thought was Ne. My "totally obvious" connections apparently aren't totally obvious to others. Including other Ne users. >_<

Definitely relate to feeling like I have to tone myself down for people. I tried being open with the wrong people a few times, and it's scarred me for life.

I'm trying to figure out how to explain it without coming across as contradictory, although I think I _am_ a contradictory person so I don't know how much I can avoid it. It's like... I'm drawn to dark things, but not _too_ dark. And I love to introspect, and I love to dive deep and really sink my teeth into what I find there, but there are still some things that are too deep and unpleasant for me to acknowledge, and I get bored of all the inaction after a while. I guess that's where the flightiness comes in, especially when it involves other people. It's like nothing is too much for me, until all of a sudden it is, and once I reach that point it's hard to make myself care anymore, and I want to just up and leave. I really wish I could see that point of "that's enough" coming so I could prepare better, but it tends to hit me without much warning.

It disgusts me, to be perfectly honest. I think I'm a disgusting person when I do this. It's taken me a long time to even admit this to myself. I try to hold back from getting close to others to avoid doing it, but I don't know how well it works because I don't have much self-control when I get excited about something.



Paradigm said:


> I'm a little unsure of some of my wording there, primarily the "narcissistic" and "avoids hard thinking." The 947 was less of a thinker and not too narcissistic, while the 794 is both a thinker and narcissistic (but also helpful and very personable).
> 
> But neither give off the vibe that they want to listen to the dark stuff. The vibe I get from both is that it's okay to dwell and ruminate, but _not_ okay to verbalize any of it. Complaining "ruins the atmosphere," I guess? Like, once you verbalize the problem it's suddenly A Thing, whereas being silent allowed you to pretend otherwise. Do you feel similarly? (Tbf they're both SOC-heavy, might influence things.)


I think your wording is fine, considering you're talking about 7- and 9-cores. From what I've seen both _would_ avoid too much hard thinking. At least if I think about the 4-fixed 7 I know... introspection was really a last resort. They tried to distract themselves and play their problems down, and then they got angry and tried to regain control over the situation, and then after they broke down they had to admit defeat and go inwards to figure out what was causing their issues. But introspection is definitely not a priority in their day-to-day life, especially when things are going relatively well. And in general emotions are something to be avoided and/or dissected, not to go swimming in. 

For me, wallowing and introspection and obsessing over myself and how I come across to people is my primary way of dealing with things. So I would imagine that for me and for other core 4's, there is a much heavier focus on the darker, deeper aspects of people, especially at first. In fact I crave it. When I meet someone this is the sort of shit I want to know; I'm not interested in their masks beyond a, "oh, I wonder what you're hiding and why you choose to present this face to the world?" 

Like I said above, where my fixes come in is that I get sick of it after a while. Double positivity means that there _is_ such a thing as "too much" with me, although it takes a while to get there. 



> Kinda opposite to me... I get a lot of comfort from complaining and finding solutions with others. (Merely being validated does nothing for me.)


To be honest, I really, really want to give advice to people. I often can't think of anything, but I wish I could. I hate to see people upset because I know how awful it can feel, and I want to help them overcome that. But I'd rather say nothing than give trite, irrelevant advice, and I've learned that most people actually prefer others to do just that. I guess if they feel like most other people _invalidate_ their feelings, it means more to them to have someone tell them it's actually okay to feel the way they do.

When I'm upset... Validation isn't enough for me either. I know I have the right to feel what I feel, lol. I guess I'm open to advice, if it's actually good advice that takes into account my personality and my circumstances and is merely offered, rather than framed as a "you should". I rarely get that, so I'd rather people just shut up in that case. But if someone takes the time to talk through things with me and doesn't try to make me do anything I don't want to do, I really appreciate it. 



fair phantom said:


> Hmm I have no problem dealing with dark stuff. I think about "dark stuff" lot actually and I am there for my friends when they are in bad places. It is just for myself *I've found there comes a time when thinking about dark things ceases to have any benefit and feels self-indulgent* (not sure if this is the best word). *If I am helpless in a situation, I find it is better not to brood and to find reasons to live on.*


True for me too, especially the bolded. Maybe that's a nicer way to put it, intead of my self-loathing drivel above. 

As for the instincts, I do think you should be able to relate to them on their own. I personally do relate to the sp 4 descriptions (well, maybe not so much the "dauntless" ones, but the ones which emphasise "holding it all in"), but I also relate to sp in a general sense. It's definitely my neurosis. Sx and so took a bit longer for me to sort out, and I did actually think I was sp/so for a while, but now I don't see how I could be anything but so-last. Sometimes you've just gotta make a decision and see how it sticks over a period of time, I think.


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> Because uncertainty is what trips me up the most in life. I mean, it's _really _bad, to the point where it feels *I'm forever in a prison of my own uncertainty*. And lol, all that validation-seek. =P Besides that, I also feel pretty reactive, but I don't always care to express it because it seems foolish... but then I thought, if I _disintegrate _to a reactive type, maybe that's why I see the reactivity negatively? Well, I feel I've also been surrounded by a lot of over-the-top reactivity in life, which annoyed me, but then I identified with it because merging or something. >_>
> 
> @_Swordsman of Mana_
> Wtf, that avatar.


I see...

From what I've seen, 9s are the ones who often phrase their disagreements, legitimate or otherwise, with "I'm not sure, because I..." or something along the lines of "but I ... and..., I don't know". Notice the I don't know," "I'm not sure." 

Even though 6s are most bugged by uncertainty (perhaps) it is 9s who constantly acknowledge uncertainty/ambiguity in their thoughts, opinions, ideas, etc (perhaps even deliberately... I mean, I can see how the presence of ambiguity could be fueled by psychospiritual inertia). Not sure how it is for all MBTI types, but I've seen a good number of ISFJ 9s who have this quality to them. For example, if I ask an ISFJ 9 if they're sure about what they've thought, it is likely they'll respond with "I don't know, but I think it possible." To me, that's saying they're not even sure of what they think. Which, put another way, is avoidance of actually looking at things or thinking about them in a way that could threaten to break their bubble of peaceful ignorance. 

So, tell me, do you relate??


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Vergil
Unsure of what I think? Not really, though when trying to communicate it to someone else, it can easily get foggy, and I can be rather unsure of whether I'm right or not, like "the sky _is _blue.... I think?"

Also when I read about Holy Love, it makes me want to throw up. Not sure what that says about me, but yeah. :V


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> @_Vergil_
> Unsure of what I think? Not really, though when trying to communicate it to someone else, it can easily get foggy, and I can be rather unsure of whether I'm right or not, like "the sky _is _blue.... I think?"
> 
> Also when I read about Holy Love, it makes me want to throw up. Not sure what that says about me, but yeah. :V


Holy ideas don't make sense to me. Too much spirituality makes things incredulous. For me, I mean. I understood this entire system best from Naranjo. His communication style (in the book) and the things he's drawn from fit like a beautiful jigsaw puzzle. It should come as no surprise then that I rely heavily on his work. 

Disregarding Naranjo though, I'd still say don't look at a million things. Whether or not a type works for you ought to rely more on what you do and why you do what you do. 

Do you need everyone/everything to be crystal clear because you dislike ambiguity? Because ambiguity leaves too many things to chance? Is it too easy to get out of control that way? 

Do you need everything to be just so? Do you believe everything takes its own course and it is important to let things just happen instead of forcing them? Because forcing = resistance/confrontation = discomfort? 

^ not saying that is a very good summary, but it comes pretty close, from my perspective.


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> As for the instincts, I do think you should be able to relate to them on their own. I personally do relate to the sp 4 descriptions (well, maybe not so much the "dauntless" ones, but the ones which emphasise "holding it all in"), but I also relate to sp in a general sense. It's definitely my neurosis. Sx and so took a bit longer for me to sort out, and I did actually think I was sp/so for a while, but now I don't see how I could be anything but so-last. Sometimes you've just gotta make a decision and see how it sticks over a period of time, I think.


Looking at it in terms of neurosis, I think I am more neurotic about so-related things.


----------



## Vaka

ElliCat said:


> I always thought people not being able to follow my trail of thought was Ne. My "totally obvious" connections apparently aren't totally obvious to others. Including other Ne users. >_<
> 
> Definitely relate to feeling like I have to tone myself down for people. I tried being open with the wrong people a few times, and it's scarred me for life.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how to explain it without coming across as contradictory, although I think I _am_ a contradictory person so I don't know how much I can avoid it. It's like... I'm drawn to dark things, but not _too_ dark. And I love to introspect, and I love to dive deep and really sink my teeth into what I find there, but there are still some things that are too deep and unpleasant for me to acknowledge, and I get bored of all the inaction after a while. I guess that's where the flightiness comes in, especially when it involves other people. It's like nothing is too much for me, until all of a sudden it is, and once I reach that point it's hard to make myself care anymore, and I want to just up and leave. I really wish I could see that point of "that's enough" coming so I could prepare better, but it tends to hit me without much warning.
> 
> It disgusts me, to be perfectly honest. I think I'm a disgusting person when I do this. It's taken me a long time to even admit this to myself. I try to hold back from getting close to others to avoid doing it, but I don't know how well it works because I don't have much self-control when I get excited about something.


I'm curious, what is your relationship with feelings of meaninglessness or futility in truly finding objective 'meaning'? Paradigm noted some nihilism in there, but she wasn't sure how a 7 or 7 fixer might be in that relationship. I also forgot to add to Paradigm that it's not the result of depression haha. I have had my bouts, but this is more a 'philosophical' thing

It very well might be Ne, tho. I was thinking of that too. It might be the Fi/Ti that creates a bit of a block in being able to follow other Ne firsts or seconds since you're there for few minutes trying to understand what they're saying before your mind goes into Ne mode. Well I say that because I'm the same way sometimes with other Ne users :

I'd consider myself to be, in the right setting, self revealing. If it's online, I can be self revealing. Offline, not so much, but it's still in 1on1 conversations where most people shy away from these things. I've noticed I have a way of talking about these things sometimes even in a rather detached way. Tho I perceive a place within me where I haven't been quite honest with myself. That's what used to bother me. It's like a door I can't cross and if I open it, I'll be sucked in and destroyed or something. I'm not even sure if that's related to enneagram. Some things have become suppressed. In other ways, I realize there is so much I don't like about myself in the present, but I tend to fantasize which actually leads me to inaction. I think this is probably more 4ish as it's a tendency to fantasize about an ideal self or idealistic things happening so much so that it just separates me from what I really have or am

Traditionally, I've been a very self destructive person, but as of late I'm trying to think more positively about things because I realized what I said earlier about how I fantasize too much about what I am rather than working on what I actually am. So that does mean some positive reframing is involved

I don't mind other peoples' darkness as well. Actually, I practically beg for it with people I'm trying to get close to lol. I tend to find these people interesting, even more so than other people who don't have so much darkness in them. Can you go on more about how it makes you want to leave, more what it makes you feel? For me, If people give a hint of something deeper or darker, it brings me in, they move away from it, and it's like a boner killer. Not to say I don't have my times I'm lighthearted because I do. People I get close to generally perceive me as sweet, actually, but then I've also been called fucked up(in the most loving way), unstable, or intense, etc.. Offline(I have to specify because most of my communication is online admittedly) there's a different dynamic. Sometimes I'm too self involved to realize people are even feeling something deep or dark. Other times it's too overwhelming for me to reach out or I don't exactly know what to do or what to say, so like the little dumbass I am, I do nothing. I also don't have great speaking skills right now(tho I'd love to work on it), so I don't engage people sometimes if it's about a topic that is deeper or dark, but not necessarily born from a moment of deep, helpless emotion. I'll think about it tho if it's interesting. there are definite times I'm more in direct stimulation mode on the other hand

What is it you're hiding from exactly when avoiding these unpleasant dark or deep things? I know what people perceive as dark can vary, but I'd like to know more what makes you feel like avoiding them or how they're present to you if you aren't acknowledging them

Edit: Sorry, I wrote a lot. I was trying to explain things well, and I'm sleepy so I'm probably overcompensating

I also get this strange feeling sometimes if I write this much about my inner processes just like this. It's not unpleasant, it's just I see myself as also being a person who fluctuates, so I have a hard time saying I'm all one thing or all another. But I'll keep this all up anyway. I can be very much physically indulgent and I don't feel it was emphasized yet enough. It's part of what's making me think of 7 right now, that and some other things revolving around freedom


----------



## DomNapoleon

Nonsense said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_
> Wtf, that avatar.


ROFL He just wants to be a 2 because 2 are seductive... I don't see anything 2-ish in your personality @Swordsman of Mana You don't put your needs in the last place when it comes to help others.


----------



## Vaka

Oh, you two are so cute


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vergil said:


> Holy ideas don't make sense to me. Too much spirituality makes things incredulous. For me, I mean. I understood this entire system best from Naranjo. His communication style (in the book) and the things he's drawn from fit like a beautiful jigsaw puzzle. It should come as no surprise then that I rely heavily on his work.
> 
> Disregarding Naranjo though, I'd still say don't look at a million things. Whether or not a type works for you ought to rely more on what you do and why you do what you do.


Eh, well. I guess _that _is true, but you know. :tongue: 



> Do you need everyone/everything to be crystal clear because you dislike ambiguity? Because ambiguity leaves too many things to chance? Is it too easy to get out of control that way?


I'd say "it depends", but yeah. I mean, if I feel too unsure of what to do, it can make me feel really anxious, but why? Because I'm scared of looking stupid.  So it seems more image-y, in a way? Like the fear comes about because of shame. But then there are things like, one time my mom said she would be here in an hour, but then it took her at least two hours, so I got home and waited for a while unsure of when she'd be here, and wow, I hate my mom, I can barely think of this without getting angry. But then, that also seems to be linked to shame in a way, because I really wanted to be around once she got here, so she couldn't snoop around unsupervised and potentially stumble upon something embarrassing. orz 

(And I mean, speaking of discomfort, dealing with my mom is one of the most uncomfortable things, so I try to avoid dealing with her as much as possible these days, but at the same time I feel kind of indebted since she took care of me all these years and all. x_x So in hindsight I regret not being more independent so I could get away with being 100% selfish without too much guilt. =P)



> Do you need everything to be just so? Do you believe everything takes its own course and it is important to let things just happen instead of forcing them? Because forcing = resistance/confrontation = discomfort?


Well, it does sound good for something to happen naturally instead of forcing it, and I tend to dislike confrontation because I'm a wuss. Hmm, I do like to have a sense of order, so I don't necessarily deal too well with change even though routine bothers me too once I notice it. I get overwhelmed very easily, so (although it's funny, because the idea of type 9's Sloth I think is that you don't get affected by things, which... I feel like I'm too easily affected by things to be honest. Someone said I "seem like a rock" because nothing gets through to me, which is like lol. Ugh).

Either way, being an attachment type seems so sad. >_<


----------



## Kisshoten

Nonsense said:


> I'd say "it depends", but yeah. I mean, if I feel too unsure of what to do, it can make me feel really anxious, but why? Because I'm scared of looking stupid.  So it seems more image-y, in a way? Like the fear comes about because of shame. But then there are things like, one time my mom said she would be here in an hour, but then it took her at least two hours, so I got home and waited for a while unsure of when she'd be here, and wow, I hate my mom, I can barely think of this without getting angry. But then, that also seems to be linked to shame in a way, because I really wanted to be around once she got here, so she couldn't snoop around unsupervised and potentially stumble upon something embarrassing. orz
> 
> (And I mean, speaking of discomfort, dealing with my mom is one of the most uncomfortable things, so I try to avoid dealing with her as much as possible these days, but at the same time I feel kind of indebted since she took care of me all these years and all. x_x So in hindsight I regret not being more independent so I could get away with being 100% selfish without too much guilt. =P)


your mom seems like a special case, so don't rely very heavily on that. Exceptions ought not to define what you consider a defense mechanism. Of course, we all have ways of dealing with special cases, but what you do in most scenarios of a certain nature reveals which way you lean in terms of what you would avoid and how. <-- I hope that makes sense. 

I mean, normally, I'm a pretty chill person and I don't give a shit about most stuff. But some people get on my nerves so bad, dad sometimes, for instance, that they elicit a reaction and reactive I am not. Sure, I feel the annoyance but very rarely am I pushed into a corner where I have to roar and bare my claws to make people respect my space. 

The point I'm making is, my dad is a special case. His influence on me is significant, no doubt. But most people are not like my dad and what defines my natural state is how I am predisposed to behave with people overall, rather than outliers like my dad. 



> Well, it does sound good for something to happen naturally instead of forcing it, and I tend to dislike confrontation *because I'm a wuss*. Hmm, I do like to have a sense of order, so I don't necessarily deal too well with change even though routine bothers me too once I notice it. I get overwhelmed very easily, so (although it's funny, because the idea of type 9's Sloth *I think is that you don't get affected by things*, which... I feel like *I'm too easily affected by things* to be honest. Someone said I "seem like a rock" because nothing gets through to me, which is like lol. Ugh).
> 
> Either way, being an attachment type seems so sad. >_<


Explain your manner of wussiness. Believe it or not, the definition of wuss varies from place to place and, not so rarely, from person to person as well. 

Actually, it is not that they are not affected. It is that they believe that letting it affect you is a surefire way to lose control and lose that sense of inner peace. So, if a 9 is constantly made to put up with a pushy confrontational person, the 9 is more likely to give into the other's wishes purely because they dislike how the confrontation affects them. It is easier to do what they want the 9 to do, if it means avoiding unpleasantness, thereby preventing a situation where their sense of inner peace is disturbed. 

if you're talking about sensitivity, yeah, 9s are pretty sensitive. At least the ones I know of are. However, they generally tend to grow a thick skin over time. A sensitive, timid little 9 usually grows into someone who know when not to be bothered and when to stand up for themselves. It's .. pretty, in a way. 

If you think being an attachment type is bad, you should try triple frustration. Almost everything annoys you and you pine away for an ideal that is impossible, even in imagination. The constant disappointment and potential for bitterness can be very disillusioning. 

=/


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vergil said:


> If you think being an attachment type is bad, you should try triple frustration. Almost everything annoys you and* you pine away for an ideal that is impossible, even in imagination*. The constant disappointment and potential for bitterness can be very disillusioning.
> 
> =/


Heh, I can feel like that sometimes too, in a way.

Oh well, I should be heading out soon, so will have to think some more about what to answer while I'm sitting on the bus.


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> Kinda opposite to me... I get a lot of comfort from complaining and finding solutions with others. (Merely being validated does nothing for me.)


What instinct do you think drives that strategy of complaining?


----------



## ElliCat

lycanized said:


> I'm curious, what is your relationship with feelings of meaninglessness or futility in truly finding objective 'meaning'?


Hmmm, I think I'm an optimist deep down. Doesn't really fit with the image I have of myself (I tend to think I'm a lot darker than I actually am), but if I'm not content with my current situation I simultaneously wallow in feeling like a victim of circumstances and look forward to the future, when things will be _much_ better. 

I don't know if I believe in truly objective meaning. I think everyone has their own approach to life and that they make their own meaning out of it. It's not something that bothers me, though. If anything, I see it as a kind of freedom. Maybe this is how I avoid feelings of futility, then? 

I actually think my 7 partner is more cynical than me. In particular he's cynical towards people and their intentions. I always put it down to an NT/NF clash but I don't really know what's behind it. 



> It very well might be Ne, tho. I was thinking of that too. It might be the Fi/Ti that creates a bit of a block in being able to follow other Ne firsts or seconds since you're there for few minutes trying to understand what they're saying before your mind goes into Ne mode. Well I say that because I'm the same way sometimes with other Ne users :


Yeah but then sometimes they can't follow me either, haha. I think it's more that because the Ne leaps are individual to each user's thought processes. If I'm thinking along the same lines as someone else, it'll be easier to follow the leaps, but just sharing Ne on its own isn't enough. I don't know if that's clear or not... Fi's not my friend here. XD



> I'd consider myself to be, in the right setting, self revealing. If it's online, I can be self revealing. Offline, not so much, but it's still in 1on1 conversations where most people shy away from these things.


In my experience it's split pretty evenly between groups and one-on-one conversations. Sometimes it takes a couple of people in a group to confess to something before others will too. At other times it seems like they're afraid of what the group will think, and it's just that they happen to trust baring their souls to me in private. I wonder if it has to do with stacking, or just with personal chemistry.

With me, it's either holding back, or letting it all out and not knowing when to stop. I don't mean to come across as self-obsessed (even though I am), but I talk about myself as a way of sharing vulnerability with someone, and letting them know that it's okay to trust me and to share parts of themselves with me too. Asking questions without giving any answers of my own seems like prying, and like I expect them to trust me even though I don't trust them.



> I've noticed I have a way of talking about these things sometimes even in a rather detached way. Tho I perceive a place within me where I haven't been quite honest with myself. That's what used to bother me. It's like a door I can't cross and if I open it, I'll be sucked in and destroyed or something. I'm not even sure if that's related to enneagram. Some things have become suppressed. In other ways, I realize there is so much I don't like about myself in the present, but I tend to fantasize which actually leads me to inaction. I think this is probably more 4ish as it's a tendency to fantasize about an ideal self or idealistic things happening so much so that it just separates me from what I really have or am


Oh gods yes. I get lost in fantasising about my ideal self because I feel like it's something I could be, if the world were a better place, but because it isn't a good place, some of my potential will never be realised. In reality it's probably more that I'm not quite prepared to take some of the risks that would lead me to becoming my idealised self. 

To be honest I embrace most of my flaws. I think they make me more interesting. But they're the flaws that I don't _really_ consider to be flaws, I guess... just traits that other people probably don't like about me. They're not traits that disgust me. Those stay hidden, until I read Enneagram descriptions that point them out, and then I throw a tantrum and declare that the whole system is bullshit, until I come crawling back because I've had some months to think about it and I've become intrigued... >_>

I like the imagery of the door you can't open. I would say it's a lot like that. It feels like it's been locked by some foreign power but it's probably more that I'm the one keeping it closed, because I'm not ready to deal with it.



> Traditionally, I've been a very self destructive person, but as of late I'm trying to think more positively about things because I realized what I said earlier about how I fantasize too much about what I am rather than working on what I actually am. So that does mean some positive reframing is involved


I don't see myself as self-destructive, at least not in an aggressive sense. If anything there's probably a lot of lost potential, due to my inaction - possibly a combination of self-preservation wanting to keep me safe and comfortable, and 9-ish sloth. I think stronger sx might explain some of that difference though. 



> I don't mind other peoples' darkness as well. Actually, I practically beg for it with people I'm trying to get close to lol. I tend to find these people interesting, even more so than other people who don't have so much darkness in them. Can you go on more about how it makes you want to leave, more what it makes you feel?


Maybe I was wrong to link it to darkness specifically. I think a lot of it is general boredom. Once I've seen most of a person's insides, the thrill of the mystery is gone and they become just "normal". (God, I'm wincing as I write this.) Or, if their deep dark secrets tend towards being professional victims, my inferior Te gets pissed off about their lack of desire to do anything about their situation and they just become whiny arseholes to me. Or, they'll do or profess to believe in something that goes against one of my core values and that just turns me right off them. 

There are a few people who I still find interesting after many years. They tend to be individuals who are confident, interested in growth, open to new experiences, and just really strange in general. It's a rare mix. I don't even know if I'm there myself, even though I do try. 



> For me, If people give a hint of something deeper or darker, it brings me in, they move away from it, and it's like a boner killer. Not to say I don't have my times I'm lighthearted because I do. People I get close to generally perceive me as sweet, actually, but then I've also been called fucked up(in the most loving way), unstable, or intense, etc.. Offline(I have to specify because most of my communication is online admittedly) there's a different dynamic. Sometimes I'm too self involved to realize people are even feeling something deep or dark. Other times it's too overwhelming for me to reach out or I don't exactly know what to do or what to say, so like the little dumbass I am, I do nothing. I also don't have great speaking skills right now(tho I'd love to work on it), so I don't engage people sometimes if it's about a topic that is deeper or dark, but not necessarily born from a moment of deep, helpless emotion. I'll think about it tho if it's interesting. there are definite times I'm more in direct stimulation mode on the other hand


Yeah I've always wondered how many interesting and/or like-minded people I've dismissed as boring, haha. I really don't do myself any favours. But I guess I'm guilty of killing your boner  I'll open up to someone and then afterwards I'll freak out that _I should not have done that because they're going to think I'm crazy now_, and so I'll start avoiding them so that they don't have the chance to tell me how fucked-up they think I am. Usually they're not thinking anything of the sort, but often what's happening inside my head is more real to me than what's happening out there, so good luck convincing me of it. -_-



> What is it you're hiding from exactly when avoiding these unpleasant dark or deep things? I know what people perceive as dark can vary, but I'd like to know more what makes you feel like avoiding them or how they're present to you if you aren't acknowledging them


Hmm well I'm averse to violence and gore, so that's more what I was getting at when I said I think I'm darker than I am - this is more in an aesthetic sense, like when I know someone's into really horrific imagery like that I'm a bit weirded out. That on its own isn't enough to turn me off a person (one of my exes was like this) but it's enough to remind me that I'm a lot fluffier than I like to admit. 

Otherwise I guess I'll have to think about that a bit. Concrete examples aren't really coming to me right now. I tend to just pull shit out of my arse, sorry!



> I also get this strange feeling sometimes if I write this much about my inner processes just like this. It's not unpleasant, it's just I see myself as also being a person who fluctuates, so I have a hard time saying I'm all one thing or all another. But I'll keep this all up anyway. I can be very much physically indulgent and I don't feel it was emphasized yet enough. It's part of what's making me think of 7 right now, that and some other things revolving around freedom


Now this I can relate to! I often say or write something about myself, only to realise afterwards that it's not actually true, or that it was true in that moment but not true anymore, and it bothers me that people might be left with the entirely wrong impression of me. 

Being tied down scares the hell out of me. If I'm going to settle down somewhere, it's going to be my choice, and I still want to be free to up and leave when I feel like it.

I fucking love things. I detest rampant consumerism, and don't buy into the whole status symbol shit, but I get very attached to objects and I love good food, drink, being comfortable, being surrounded by beautiful things which reflect my inner state... It's funny, my 7 is very vocal about how much he hates objects and acquiring objects and owning objects and consumerism in general, and whine about how terrible it is having money and he wants to just throw everything away... but every so often he'll admit that he is actually a bit of a materialist. And while I don't know that he's a true materialist, he really does need a high income. He'll skimp on stuff like food and decorations for the house, but then he'll go out and spend a fortune on a TV or a decent computer or equipment for his hobbies or anything that lets him escape cold hard boring stagnant reality. 

Oh look I've spent an hour rambling. This is exactly why I don't post here. I hope some of it made sense to you though?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Mandraque said:


> ROFL He just wants to be a 2 because 2 are seductive... I don't see anything 2-ish in your personality @Swordsman of Mana You don't put your needs in the last place when it comes to help others.


:laughing:
PS: if I used this avi for the sake of being "seductive", there would be something seriously wrong with me lmao


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> What instinct do you think drives that strategy of complaining?


Do you mean instinctual variant? 'Cause none, IMO. 

But, well, it's probably very common for 6s to get comfort out of complaining. It doesn't help that my tritype is basically "triple complainer". And Te / xxTJ types, in addition to 6, get more comfort by finding solutions. 

Or that's how I'd explain it via typology, anyway.

If that's not what you meant, I'll try to rephrase if you do


----------



## Paradigm

ElliCat said:


> I think your wording is fine, considering you're talking about 7- and 9-cores. From what I've seen both _would_ avoid too much hard thinking. At least if I think about the 4-fixed 7 I know... introspection was really a last resort. They tried to distract themselves and play their problems down, and then they got angry and tried to regain control over the situation, and then after they broke down they had to admit defeat and go inwards to figure out what was causing their issues. But introspection is definitely not a priority in their day-to-day life, especially when things are going relatively well. And in general emotions are something to be avoided and/or dissected, not to go swimming in.


I don't think that's actually 7, though. It's just an immature, probably extroverted, person. Not 7.

The 794 I know is very mature. Masculine, conservative, and religious*... But mature and self-aware, stable and responsible, and good at reading people. That's why I went back on my words. He does play down his own problems, but he does solve them on his own time rather than involve others. I'm not sure how much of that is typology-related though, tbf; I'd say half of it isn't.
*None of which would initially be on my list of "awesome traits, yay" but I have my own biases.

Now, obviously, I can't say the same for core 9s (re: wanting to think hard) given my core 9 was opposite of stable and self-aware (though not overly so), but I'd think if 7s can do it then 9s can.



> For me, wallowing and introspection and obsessing over myself and how I come across to people is my primary way of dealing with things. So I would imagine that for me and for other core 4's, there is a much heavier focus on the darker, deeper aspects of people, especially at first. In fact I crave it. When I meet someone this is the sort of shit I want to know; I'm not interested in their masks beyond a, "oh, I wonder what you're hiding and why you choose to present this face to the world?"


I wonder how much of this is your SP/SX typing, and not your core 4. 'Cause I can relate.



> But I'd rather say nothing than give trite, irrelevant advice, and I've learned that most people actually prefer others to do just that.


I'm starting to think that this validation is probably a "placebo effect." Most people do prefer it, and they probably convince themselves that being validated is "healing" because it makes them feel better.

It's not, frankly. It's usually just normalizing bad "solutions" or reactions.

But, eh. I'm not very people oriented. From my perspective, most people (myself included) are too irrational and biased to come to an objective, rational solution on their own. They're usually too aggressive or, more commonly, passive-aggressive. God forbid our society encourages mature, calculated solutions.


----------



## ElliCat

Paradigm said:


> I don't think that's actually 7, though. It's just an immature, probably extroverted, person. Not 7.
> 
> The 794 I know is very mature. Masculine, conservative, and religious*... But mature and self-aware, stable and responsible, and good at reading people. That's why I went back on my words. He does play down his own problems, but he does solve them on his own time rather than involve others. I'm not sure how much of that is typology-related though, tbf; I'd say half of it isn't.
> *None of which would initially be on my list of "awesome traits, yay" but I have my own biases.


Ah, the immaturity is true: it was them in their younger days, hence the use of past tense.  Am very sure that they're a 7 due to many many factors, but my point was more that deep _4-ish introspection and exploring their feelings_ was not something that they concerned themselves with until they had no other option. I don't know if I hinted that they didn't want to solve their own problems, but if I did, that's not true at all and I apologise for the poor choice of words. There's obviously a lot of thought going on, being a head type and all, but it's not the same sort of thought that I would have as a core 4. They can do it if they feel they have to, but it's not a primary coping mechanism. 

Anyway, all the traits you mentioned apart from conservative and religious describe this person too, as they are now, and I guess they're not type-specific. I didn't mean to paint them as horribly shallow, just as less 4-ish than core 4's. (Apparently I write a lot of words but it still takes me a few goes to get it right!) 



> Now, obviously, I can't say the same for core 9s (re: wanting to think hard) given my core 9 was opposite of stable and self-aware (though not overly so), but I'd think if 7s can do it then 9s can.


I'm sure 9's can, but that it takes a certain level of maturity and awareness. At least if my 9 is correctly typed. Took them until middle age, and there were a few things holding them back, but they're getting there.



> I wonder how much of this is your SP/SX typing, and not your core 4. 'Cause I can relate.


I honestly hadn't thought of that. Re-reading it I do see a bit of sx. I think of sp as wanting to drag me away from all that, though. Stay away so I can be safe from other people. It's the sx that becomes intoxicated and pulls me further in.



> I'm starting to think that this validation is probably a "placebo effect." Most people do prefer it, and they probably convince themselves that being validated is "healing" because it makes them feel better.
> 
> It's not, frankly. It's usually just normalizing bad "solutions" or reactions.
> 
> But, eh. I'm not very people oriented. From my perspective, most people (myself included) are too irrational and biased to come to an objective, rational solution on their own. They're usually too aggressive or, more commonly, passive-aggressive. God forbid our society encourages mature, calculated solutions.


Heh, I'm a bit more optimistic than that. I think it does truly depend on the person. My fellow Fi-doms often need the validation for the reason I mentioned before, that most (well-meaning) people spend so much time trying to change them that simply me saying, "I can see where you're coming from, it's okay to feel that way, now what are you going to do about it?" and then _listening_ is enough for them to re-gain their self confidence and to trust in their own decisions again. I think there are people (me included) who try to be mature human beings and expect their loved ones to call them out on their bullshit if they're being too irrational and biased. Even if it hurts in that moment, after a bit of time I'll churn things over in my head and see if there's anything of value I can take from it. 

For a lot of others, it's probably closer to what you say. These days I try to avoid immature people - can't deal with the constant drama - so I'm not often in the situation where I might inadvertently justify their bad behaviour. If I think someone's reaction is problematic I try to calm them down and get them to consider different options, but I guess it's a bit hard to calm them down if I'm giving them a Te bitchslap right away. Better to get them to the point where they won't automatically get defensive over what I have to say.


----------



## Kintsugi

Vergil said:


> If you think being an attachment type is bad, you should try triple frustration. Almost everything annoys you and you pine away for an ideal that is impossible, even in imagination. The constant disappointment and potential for bitterness can be very disillusioning.
> 
> =/


:crying::crying::crying:


----------



## Darkbloom

Vergil said:


> If you think being an attachment type is bad, you should try triple frustration. Almost everything annoys you and you pine away for an ideal that is impossible, even in imagination. The constant disappointment and potential for bitterness can be very disillusioning.*


Can relate :/


----------



## Kintsugi

Confused about my gut-fix. I always went for 1 over 8, but lately, I see the 8 in me...

I keep upsetting people just by being myself and I _hate _it when people expect me to change my behavior just to keep the peace. I speak my mind and if others can't handle that then they shouldn't ask me for my opinion. I keep being told that I'm too "harsh" and that my brutal honesty can be difficult for some people to deal with. Most of the time I don't bother getting too close to others because I feel that they don't have the backbone or guts to confront reality. I'd _always _rather be a loner than follow a crowd.

I always seek "the truth" in any given situation. I say what I see, and find it incredibly hard to hold back, even if doing so risks upsetting someone. I have managed to train myself to "soften" my blow with certain people over the years, particularly those I care about. It's extremely difficult though and I mess up all the time. 

Recently I've realized that I try and impose _my _truth on others, and it's not because I'm anxious or fearful, it's because I want to be _dominant_ and the one in control. It energizes me and makes me feel alive. 

Hmm. >_>


----------



## fair phantom

Vergil said:


> If you think being an attachment type is bad, you should try triple frustration. Almost everything annoys you and you pine away for an ideal that is impossible, even in imagination. The constant disappointment and potential for bitterness can be very disillusioning.


This is part of why I decided on 479 over 471: I am idealistic, and I definitely get frustrated by how reality falls short ideals, but not to the extent that I gather triple-frustration types experience. When I'm not trapped in depression, I feel more optimistic than that. I'll take the view that even though the world can't meet my ideal, things can still be wonderful, and I can keep working to make things closer to my ideal.


----------



## Kisshoten

Living dead said:


> Can relate :/


To all those who relate, I can understand how you relate. But I maintain that you cannot and do not feel it the way I or other triple frustration types do. 

Your own anger threatens to consume you at every step. Every ideal you've had is overshadowed by reality and hopelessness is inches away. 

Yeah, I don't think you'd understand. My opinion, but, there you have it.


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> Do you mean instinctual variant? 'Cause none, IMO.
> 
> But, well, it's probably very common for 6s to get comfort out of complaining. It doesn't help that my tritype is basically "triple complainer". And Te / xxTJ types, in addition to 6, get more comfort by finding solutions.
> 
> Or that's how I'd explain it via typology, anyway.
> 
> If that's not what you meant, I'll try to rephrase if you do


You think it's an 'ego' thing, rather than an instinctual drive? 
If you refer to 417 being 'frustration' triad, the sp4 for instance is least vocal of the 3 instincts, and the complaining of the more melodramatic so4 is just as much a strategy as it is a strategy for a (tenacious) sp4 not to complain. 

But aside from enneagram-types to ascribe it to, I think other (social) animals complain too. For instance...












Howling said:


> Separation Anxiety Howling
> If your neighbors call you and tell you that your dog is howling when you are at work, your dog’s excessive howling might be caused by separation anxiety. Separation anxiety howling only occurs when a dog is left alone or otherwise separated from his owner. This kind of howling is usually accompanied by at least one other symptom of separation anxiety, such as pacing, destruction, elimination, depression or other signs of distress.




Obviously I'm provoking thoughts, so I welcome other views or insights.


----------



## Vaka

ElliCat said:


> Hmmm, I think I'm an optimist deep down. Doesn't really fit with the image I have of myself (I tend to think I'm a lot darker than I actually am), but if I'm not content with my current situation I simultaneously wallow in feeling like a victim of circumstances and look forward to the future, when things will be _much_ better.


I feel like people latch onto labels and then associate themselves with them to the point of changing how they act and what they say and that's lame to me. I'd say I'm a mix of dark and light and most people do think me to be. That's part of my obsession with freedom. I want to transcend labels, in every way. To me that's the only way to find real truth I suppose, in the self and in what's around. So nothing really is all dark or all light

When it comes to wallowing...I used to be more given to feelings of hopelessness and futility. I used to be a lot more withdrawn and felt like I didn't have it in me to change anything. My feelings are very intense and they've gone up and down. It's taken me on a journey, so I'm a bit different now



> I don't know if I believe in truly objective meaning. I think everyone has their own approach to life and that they make their own meaning out of it. It's not something that bothers me, though. If anything, I see it as a kind of freedom. Maybe this is how I avoid feelings of futility, then?


Maybe so. In general, the unknown for me presents something to explore and understand and I don't like things stated with certainty 



> With me, it's either holding back, or letting it all out and not knowing when to stop. I don't mean to come across as self-obsessed (even though I am), but I talk about myself as a way of sharing vulnerability with someone, and letting them know that it's okay to trust me and to share parts of themselves with me too. Asking questions without giving any answers of my own seems like prying, and like I expect them to trust me even though I don't trust them.


For me, there's no issue of trust. If I hook onto someone, I'll share myself naturally. And I have my moments where I'll continuously ask someone questions because I'm just interested. I feel as if I'm prying, but I tell them things like 'you don't have to answer if you're not comfortable'. More times I have to hold myself back from talking about myself simply so I don't feel I'm overwhelming them or being annoying. I assume they'll become more comfortable as things go on



> Oh gods yes. I get lost in fantasising about my ideal self because I feel like it's something I could be, if the world were a better place, but because it isn't a good place, some of my potential will never be realised. In reality it's probably more that I'm not quite prepared to take some of the risks that would lead me to becoming my idealised self.


I think it's a pretty 4ish thing. For me, I just have such a hard time separating myself from it. And I don't think it's a sense of fear, but a sense of futility I've had



> To be honest I embrace most of my flaws. I think they make me more interesting. But they're the flaws that I don't _really_ consider to be flaws, I guess... just traits that other people probably don't like about me. They're not traits that disgust me. Those stay hidden, until I read Enneagram descriptions that point them out, and then I throw a tantrum and declare that the whole system is bullshit, until I come crawling back because I've had some months to think about it and I've become intrigued... >_>


I'm very much the same way. Actually, I think it might also come from the 4ishness 



> I like the imagery of the door you can't open. I would say it's a lot like that. It feels like it's been locked by some foreign power but it's probably more that I'm the one keeping it closed, because I'm not ready to deal with it.


What do you sense might happen to you if you open it? It gives me a certain feeling. Maybe it's not even enneagram related, but it still could be



> Maybe I was wrong to link it to darkness specifically. I think a lot of it is general boredom. Once I've seen most of a person's insides, the thrill of the mystery is gone and they become just "normal". (God, I'm wincing as I write this.) Or, if their deep dark secrets tend towards being professional victims, my inferior Te gets pissed off about their lack of desire to do anything about their situation and they just become whiny arseholes to me. Or, they'll do or profess to believe in something that goes against one of my core values and that just turns me right off them.


I get it...I don't feel as if I'm the same way, I feel I have more of a sense of mysteries being endless once I've found something fascinating. It's that things tend to, in general, not be so fascinating. People tend to no be so open to such conversation. The world is covered by a layer of boring shit. It's like I have to dig through reality to find these special things and once I've found them, they're very much mine

If people open up to me about these things, it generally makes me feel connected to them. And so I don't think it's easily eradicated




> There are a few people who I still find interesting after many years. They tend to be individuals who are confident, interested in growth, open to new experiences, and just really strange in general. It's a rare mix. I don't even know if I'm there myself, even though I do try.


I haven't known anyone long enough for various reasons, certainly not about my level of fascination with them. So I can't say anything



> Yeah I've always wondered how many interesting and/or like-minded people I've dismissed as boring, haha. I really don't do myself any favours. But I guess I'm guilty of killing your boner  I'll open up to someone and then afterwards I'll freak out that _I should not have done that because they're going to think I'm crazy now_, and so I'll start avoiding them so that they don't have the chance to tell me how fucked-up they think I am. Usually they're not thinking anything of the sort, but often what's happening inside my head is more real to me than what's happening out there, so good luck convincing me of it. -_-


I do that sometimes...I'm not sure if for the same reasons. I don't get to know people, and then leave, but it's more than I'm something of an aesthete, sometimes a slave to the form. If someone seems not fascinating, they turn me off, I don't even give them a chance. If someone seems fascinating, I'm there. I wouldn't say you've killed my boner lol. I don't avoid people, but I have that stage where I say something and I'm just waiting there to see how they respond. I do feel vulnerable of course, but I just sit there and wait. I became especially sensitive as I had an experience with someone thinking I was too dark, it scared them


> Hmm well I'm averse to violence and gore, so that's more what I was getting at when I said I think I'm darker than I am - this is more in an aesthetic sense, like when I know someone's into really horrific imagery like that I'm a bit weirded out. That on its own isn't enough to turn me off a person (one of my exes was like this) but it's enough to remind me that I'm a lot fluffier than I like to admit.
> 
> Otherwise I guess I'll have to think about that a bit. Concrete examples aren't really coming to me right now. I tend to just pull shit out of my arse, sorry!


Ahh, I'm thinking of more internal things. I don't mind taking my mind to darker considerations, I typically hide it because I think people misunderstand my openmindedness. I don't mind taking it anywhere really

I still like to think of myself as transcendent, myself and my mind



> Now this I can relate to! I often say or write something about myself, only to realise afterwards that it's not actually true, or that it was true in that moment but not true anymore, and it bothers me that people might be left with the entirely wrong impression of me.


I completely understand. It's annoying lol. But it is what it is. Sometimes you have you put it out there and say, 'they'll do with it what they will' as uncomfortable as it is



> Being tied down scares the hell out of me. If I'm going to settle down somewhere, it's going to be my choice, and I still want to be free to up and leave when I feel like it.


I'm not always conscious of something like that. Certain things like...It'll take me a long time until I feel like I want to have children. I'd love them of course, but it seems it'd be draining and would take so much I'm not ready to give. I want to have that energy to devote to myself and to what I want to. Plus I'm a mess. I think I get more like this when it comes to internal things. I don't want to tie myself down to a label, or a word, or I don't think I can. Or it comes out intellectually, very very majorly. I don't want to tie myself down to a system, I want to explore different systems and draw from them. I don't tie my mind down in any way. I like to see what's really there or what all is there, I want to explore. So I see no boxes. I'm saying this so it makes it more obvious why there's a confusion between 5 and 7 for me as these things can go both ways, especially with the connection

I don't think I could adjust to strict routine, though I don't think it scares me, it's more draining and certainly boring. I often say I'm nomadic as that's my idealized form. I'm nomadic of soul, nomadic of mind, nomadic of emotion. I don't feel I belong in any one place. I don't experience a conscious sense of fear, when I think of staying in one state of soul, mind, emotion, or physical place my whole life, there is a sense of almost physical darkness. It'd make me feel like nothing



> I fucking love things. I detest rampant consumerism, and don't buy into the whole status symbol shit, but I get very attached to objects and I love good food, drink, being comfortable, being surrounded by beautiful things which reflect my inner state... It's funny, my 7 is very vocal about how much he hates objects and acquiring objects and owning objects and consumerism in general, and whine about how terrible it is having money and he wants to just throw everything away... but every so often he'll admit that he is actually a bit of a materialist. And while I don't know that he's a true materialist, he really does need a high income. He'll skimp on stuff like food and decorations for the house, but then he'll go out and spend a fortune on a TV or a decent computer or equipment for his hobbies or anything that lets him escape cold hard boring stagnant reality.


I feel like I have something inside of me which awakens and need quelling...Like an urge. Often times I don't pay so much attention to my surroundings, but I do impulsively buy things sometimes. Or steal, I used to steal

If anyone else wants to chime in, that's good. I'm still thinking about it


----------



## Kisshoten

Kintsugi said:


> Confused about my gut-fix. I always went for 1 over 8, but lately, I see the 8 in me...
> 
> I keep upsetting people just by being myself and *I hate it when people expect me to change my behavior just to keep the peace.* *I speak my mind and if others can't handle that then they shouldn't ask me for my opinion*. *I keep being told that I'm too "harsh"* and that my brutal honesty can be difficult for some people to deal with. *Most of the time I don't bother getting too close to others because I feel that they don't have the backbone or guts to confront reality. I'd always rather be a loner than follow a crowd.*
> 
> I always seek "the truth" in any given situation. I say what I see, and find *it incredibly hard to hold back*, even if doing so risks upsetting someone. *I have managed to train myself to "soften" my blow with certain people over the years, particularly those I care about. It's extremely difficult though and I mess up all the time. *
> 
> Recently I've realized that I try and impose _my _truth on others, and it's not because I'm anxious or fearful, it's because I want to be _dominant_ and the one in control. It energizes me and makes me feel alive.
> 
> Hmm. >_>


Lol happens to me too, my dear. 

Look deeper.


* *




As for the parts I have not bolded: A lot of people do take offense at my very nature. I used to wonder about it and in a bad mood I feel like they can suck it, but yeah, now I just don't bother. I have no interest in how or why they perceive me the way they do. 

Getting close to people is difficult for me because I can't open up easily and there is that tendency of people to "teach" you how to be and I hate that. I can't share my complete self because the whole truth of me involves a lot of unpleasantness, a lot of despair, a lot of irony and that is usually chalked up to negativity. It's one thing to acknowledge that such stuff is very real and completely another to say that those who think or feel such things are negative nancys. I get lectured by people on how to deal with things. I find that insulting to say the least. No one but me would know the shit I've been through and offering wisdom in hindsight is the very opposite of helping. 

I mess up with how to deal with people all the time, too, and now, I suppose I just detach all too easily and remain more distant than usual if only to avoid dealing with a situation where I can't hold back on upsetting people. Not that I am opposed to upsetting people, it usually depends on how close I am with them. But then, relationships ought to last beyond the occasional hurt feelings. If that cannot be achieved then the relationship is a joke and not worth having. 

I've been accused of imposing my truth on other people, but in truth I blame it on them. Convince me, damn it. I'm not opposed to being convinced or changing my mind. But if you fail to do so, I don't really consider that a flaw with me. Granted, it's hard to have a discussion with me and 'win' but it has happened more than most would acknowledge. As to why it is so, I'd say.. I value what I see to be the truth and I need it to be measured against the many millions of truths out there. I have no interest in dominating anyone. I can't have people depend on me for stuff, especially direction. But that does not mean I will sit around while lies are spread around. 

>.<

Not saying your 8 fix is wrong or anything... but yes, it can be difficult to spot.


----------



## Kintsugi

@Vergil

I just feel...



















































....Ugh!


Still think I'm triple frustration, tbh.

I reckon I'm just flirting with my 8 neighbor.


----------



## Kisshoten

Kintsugi said:


> @_Vergil_
> 
> I just feel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....Ugh!
> 
> 
> Still think I'm triple frustration, tbh.
> 
> I reckon I'm just flirting with my 8 neighbor.


I feel those gifs. 

:hugs:

there there dear.


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> You think it's an 'ego' thing, rather than an instinctual drive?
> If you refer to 417 being 'frustration' triad, the sp4 for instance is least vocal of the 3 instincts, and the complaining of the more melodramatic so4 is just as much a strategy as it is a strategy for a (tenacious) sp4 not to complain.
> But aside from enneagram-types to ascribe it to, I think other (social) animals complain too. For instance...
> Obviously I'm provoking thoughts, so I welcome other views or insights.


Yeah, "ego" would explain it better, I guess. Slightly engrained but mostly habit or a coping mechanism. It's not even that I'm really looking for agreement (though I hate any variation of "stop whining"), but for me, saying it out loud is as if I'm not making it up. I'm in my own head a lot, and sometimes I'm afraid I'm imagining things or seeing things from a distorted perspective. I guess I find comfort in seeing reality for what it is (Te-Se?), in these situations; transparency in social situations is even more important to me (6). Expressing it makes it more tangible and solveable, allows more viewpoints and thus less distortion possible.

Also there's a study that swearing makes pain more tolerable, and I don't think it's too huge a leap to theorize complaining makes frustration more tolerable xD

That's part of why I type as 6w7, though, because I utilize these types of mechanisms - 6w7 is more people-oriented. I'm really crap at conversing, my interpersonal skills _suck_, and my motto may as well be "people suck"... I'm very individualistic and independent, but I still rely on My People for their support. And My People see the real, total 614 me and hear my complaints and sarcastic comments and idealistic / Ni (often thought of as insane) musings -- whereas strangers see the warm, flexible SP 6 me who rolls with the punches and is polite as hell. (Though, to be clear because stereotypes, I'm strongly driven to protect my autonomy, and I have no identity via "My People." I only capitalize it to reflect how few people can be called that - I'm extremely insular and rarely find security in others, so when I do it's a Big Thing.)


* *




You know, I don't even know what it feels like to find identity in heritage, ideology, or society, or anything like that. I have none of those things. I feel no connection to cousins or even most of my extended family; intellectually I know they're blood, but I see no reason to act like blood is important if I don't know them. I find being loyal to land to be stupid - sure this might be the place you grew up or whatever, but it's just a place to live, and living is more important than dying in defense of it. And why bother being so connected to nationality, people are people. 

Oddly, though, I do love learning about different cultures... I just don't really understand why some put their entire identity into it, or resist (natural, not forced) adaptations to it.




Sorry, I turned this into a sort of stream-of-consciousness :laughing: I'm still pretty sure I didn't answer what you were getting at... I think I need to nap off some after-dinner haziness


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Shamy said:


> 7w8 2w1 1w2 seems to work for you.
> There's a lot of lines to 1 in your tritype but you're too intentionally indulgent to be a 1 core.


1w9 fix, and heart center last probably, but yeah, that's about the idea


----------



## Golden Rose

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 1w9 fix, and heart center last probably, but yeah, that's about the idea


Out of curiosity, why 1w9 over 1w2?

Also, 5w6 has been suggested for me in the chat over 5w4.
I haven't started pondering on it enough to decide but it's not unlikely since I already have a 4w5 fix.


----------



## Animal

Mandraque said:


> I think @_Animal_ has a stronger social instinct than what she thinks. She seems to be aware of group dynamics, very good at catching who is in charge and follow them. Or this or she might be a 6. :th_blush:


Nope. Lol.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Yeah. I'm so awesome that I'm untypable.

You can't handle this swagger.


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## cinnabun

Sara Torailles said:


> Yeah. I'm so awesome that I'm untypable.
> 
> You can't handle this swagger.


You're not a 9, you're too passive-aggressive and reactive to be one, IMO. Maybe 6? Idk.


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## Sara Torailles

RinnayDelRey said:


> You're not a 9, you're too passive-aggressive and reactive to be one, IMO. Maybe 6? Idk.


I've heard Type 9 is famously passive-aggressive, though...

I'm probably some sort of 6 or something but I don't know enough about typing to really say. Furthermore, isn't a disintegrated Nine Six-like in mannerisms?

Oh, and I'm going to contest you on any typing you make to get more info. If you typed me as Nine, I would contest that, too.


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## cinnabun

Sara Torailles said:


> Type 9 is famously passive-aggressive, though.




Well...my idea of type 9 must be really fucked.

Anyway, my point was, you say too many things that are....well edgy, I guess. I think 9's would be more peaceful and tip-toe around things, you're outspoken but in a fiery way. I still don't think you're 9 core.


----------



## 7rr7s

Sara Torailles said:


> Yeah. I'm so awesome that I'm untypable.
> 
> You can't handle this swagger.


Type LoonwLoon. With a heavy princess fix. ;D.


----------



## Golden Rose

@Sara Torailles

Social 4w3.


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## Sara Torailles

RinnayDelRey said:


> Well...my idea of type 9 must be really fucked.
> 
> Anyway, my point was, you say too many things that are....well edgy, I guess. I think 9's would be more peaceful and tip-toe around things, you're outspoken but in a fiery way. I still don't think you're 9 core.


The fiery personality is another mask I put on. Sometimes I have the arrogant detached intellectual mask as well. I've lost track of how many I've put on. Honestly, most days when I try to access my identity, it feels dead.

SoM guessed Four, but I hate Fours. They seem to know who they are and have a strong identity and more importantly, have a strong judgment against people who aren't authentic, either pity or revulsion.

A lot of people seem to have the luxury of choosing to be themselves. I have a disdain and envy for Four types and Fi doms for that reason.


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## Sara Torailles

Shamy said:


> @Sara Torailles
> 
> Social 4w3.


Why does everyone keep saying I'm social? I'm a hermit.


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## cinnabun

Sara Torailles said:


> The fiery personality is another mask I put on. Sometimes I have the arrogant detached intellectual mask as well. I've lost track of how many I've put on. Honestly, most days when I try to access my identity, it feels dead.
> 
> SoM guessed Four, but I hate Fours. They seem to know who they are and have a strong identity and more importantly, have a strong judgment against people who aren't authentic, either pity or revulsion.
> 
> A lot of people seem to have the luxury of choosing to be themselves. I have a disdain and envy for Four types and Fi doms for that reason.


That sounds really 3 to me....3w4 maybe.

But idk if it would be your core type, you don't seem like a core 3. Are you confident in your instinct stackings? I have a feeling you're 6.

What are you like when you're at your healthiest?
What are you like when you're very unhealthy?
What do you fear?


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## Golden Rose

Sara Torailles said:


> SoM guessed Four, but I hate Fours. They seem to know who they are and have a strong identity


No. A 4's fixation is understanding who they are and shatter any masks.
Even more so with 4w3s as there's a push and pull between wearing their flaws calculatedly and getting revenge by being themselves as a statement. Achieving despite their feeling of having been wronged by life by being born 'broken'.

Pride, Shame and Envy.



> and more importantly, have a strong judgment against people who aren't authentic, either pity or revulsion.


Sexual 4s.



> A lot of people seem to have the luxury of choosing to be themselves. I have a disdain and envy for Four types and Fi doms for that reason.


Fi-dom 4s and NiFe 4s are completely different.
INFJ 4s are usually social 4s and it's within good reason, look at this:

*Type 4 So
*
Shame in not measuring up to group standards.

The feeling that one's own worth is not equal to the expectations of others.

A sense of not meeting the standards of what others are capable of meeting, of an inner defectiveness of being that will eventually be seen and lead to rejection.

Can be highly self critical and feel ashamed of their deviance from imagined group norms.

Want to hide away from probing eyes, to eliminate social encounters that might bring deficiency to light.

Develop an unusual sensitivity to social slights and a parallel desire for recognition.

Feelings of envy arise in comparing self to others.

Sensitive to criticism.

Terror of rejection, of having the fatal flaw detected.

May romanticize defects but feel bad about themselves anyway.

Feel misunderstood.

Believe they are despised by others and fear that others might be able to read their thoughts and feelings and condemn them because of this.

Afraid their outward appearance will be rejected.

Image is heightened as a protective measure; elite memberships, a unique social presentation, looking attractive and somewhat aloof, above the common crowd.

Feelings of low self esteem, often based on actual losses in the past, perpetuate the illusion that other people posses what is missing.

They cannot live up to their own high standards, perpetuating shame.

Will attack themselves looking for the fatal flaw, the defective quality of being. Fiercely protective of their negative differences.

With a 3 wing may cover shame with charm and an flashy image.

With a five wing will grow anti-social and depressed, bearing their shame in solitude.

Dies over each mistake or social faux pas they make.

Often feels inadequate socially and either pours on charm or blends into the woodwork.

Always analyzing themselves; "Did I make myself understood", "Did I sound Stupid?", "Was I too aggressive?", "Was I too conciliatory"

Needs to be missed.

Hypersensitivity. Desire to be among the elite combined with doubts about being up to it. Cultured. Refined. Need to be seen as desired. Lofty image. Rejecting one's qualities. Fantasies of being royal. Class shame. Can't function like "normal people".

Defends defects, yet feels disadvantaged.

Don't know how to be part of the social world.

Seeks achievement and attention to make up for flaws "they won't make fun of me now". Even evident in the 5 wing.

Attraction to deviant behavior when unhealthy.

Anti social in lower levels of health.

Misanthropic.

Easily withdraws to lick wounds.

The social 4 felt that their shame was hidden because it pertained to a way in which or where they were reared. They felt they were always trying to be socially one level above where they felt they truly belonged. When they finally achieved the level they had longed for it was still not enough, so they had to strive to be at the next level, and so on. They described a never ending pressure to be more while still feeling they were inadequate, and a fear that someone would discover their humble beginnings.

Social situations are a dance between being charming or shameful.

Feelings of low self esteem-"God didn't give me what others have"

Drive to achieve-when people start to give up on me I can really come through and seek revenge.

Wants to be honored for specialness. Intense shame at desiring and seeking attention.

Attempts to seek attention are quickly countered with withdraw. "Oh, God they know I need attention, how shameful!"

Can appear like 1's, but with a decisively more shameful and self loathing bent. "I am so screwed up, I must hide this, but I want you to know how wrong I am too, but respect this as a special and noble quality".

Wounded healer quality much like the self pres 4.

Diplomatic, charming, and quite articulate. Anger is displayed through hateful withdraw and biting sarcasm or wit.


----------



## Sara Torailles

RinnayDelRey said:


> That sounds really 3 to me....3w4 maybe.
> 
> But idk if it would be your core type, you don't seem like a core 3. Are you confident in your instinct stackings? I have a feeling you're 6.
> 
> What are you like when you're at your healthiest?
> What are you like when you're very unhealthy?
> What do you fear?


Healthiest: Outgoing, emotional, empathetic, alive, peaceful, trusting, and free of the shackles that tell me I'm a guy and that's all I am.

Unhealthy: Angry, contrarian, dead, wanting to fight everyone, afraid, suicidal, wanting to cry everyday, disgusting, don't trust anyone, misanthropic.

Fear: My worst fear is growing so masculine that I look in the mirror and can't bear it anymore, and there's nothing I can do to change it short of putting a bullet in my brain.


----------



## Golden Rose

Sara Torailles said:


> Why does everyone keep saying I'm social? I'm a hermit.


The social instinct has little to do with being outgoing.
It's focus on people and power dynamics within society.
A strong interest in politics, social justice, human connections.

It also varies according to enneatype.


----------



## Animal

Sara Torailles said:


> *The fiery personality is another mask I put on. Sometimes I have the arrogant detached intellectual mask as well. I've lost track of how many I've put on. Honestly, most days when I try to access my identity, it feels dead.*
> 
> SoM guessed Four, but I hate Fours. They seem to know who they are and have a strong identity and more importantly, have a strong judgment against people who aren't authentic, either pity or revulsion.
> 
> A lot of people seem to have the luxury of choosing to be themselves. I have a disdain and envy for Four types and Fi doms for that reason.


You sound sixish here to me, but I don't know you . The bolded is sixish, though it's hard for me to explain why quickly and I'm multitasking now... I will try when I have a chance to write a long post


You strike me very six just from this exchange though. 6w7 mayhap


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## Animal

@Mandraque 

We are on skype right now  but yeah. From photos & more I can see why you say 6w5 instead of 6w7. just wanted to say that. It makes sense. So first, too.


----------



## cinnabun

Sara Torailles said:


> Healthiest: Outgoing, emotional, empathetic, alive, peaceful, trusting, and free of the shackles that tell me I'm a guy and that's all I am.
> 
> Unhealthy: Angry, contrarian, dead, wanting to fight everyone, afraid, suicidal, wanting to cry everyday, disgusting, don't trust anyone, misanthropic.
> 
> Fear: My worst fear is growing so masculine that I look in the mirror and can't bear it anymore, and there's nothing I can do to change it short of putting a bullet in my brain.


From this, I'm sensing 6w7. The 6 is obvious with your need with security. Your desire to be a woman, to be who you are, makes you feel secure and safe. The 7 is coming through with your desire for freedom and who you want to be.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Sara Torailles said:


> A lot of people seem to have the luxury of choosing to be themselves. I have a disdain and envy for Four types and Fi doms for that reason.


Sounds slightly ironic, not gonna lie.


----------



## Sara Torailles

I've often fantasized, if a partner can see me as female, then it would be okay. I would be happy. But not a single person can.

I always fear the climax of what happens. Something big is going to happen in my psyche, and I'm waiting for the bomb to tick.

I don't want to know what wins... The wrongness and disgust I feel when I look in the mirror, the fear of changing that, or both.

The amount of people who understand or look at me in the way I desire is minimal. I see what people think every day. Some fuckhead's opinion of Bruce Jenner being "whipped" by his wife or doing it for the ratings. Some person looking at us to laugh at the freakshow...

I guess what I'm meaning to say is there's a lot of fear, shame, and anger that I experience. I can't really pinpoint what it originates from.

A place of security for me was when I was alone in my room and I practiced my voice. But my roommates found out, and they gossiped very loudly, in a way that attacked me as a person, and in a way that I clearly could hear. I fucking hate those pieces of shit. I want them to choke on their own bile. It's like they killed a part of me that I cultivated.


----------



## Sara Torailles

RinnayDelRey said:


> From this, I'm sensing 6w7. The 6 is obvious with your need with security. Your desire to be a woman, to be who you are, makes you feel secure and safe. The 7 is coming through with your desire for freedom and who you want to be.


Hm... I always thought counterphobic 6w7 was about "fuck the crowd+I'll jerk off a bull to be revolutionary/edgy". How far off am I in my misconceptions?

I'm not attached to reactionaryism. That's more a passing stage from time to time. The sadness overwhelms me and I start something to get someone else to feel that pain. I want them to feel as mad and isolated as I feel everyday. For just one minute, I want them to wipe the smug smile off of their faces.

I would be an interesting case study. Would you believe in the real world, I'm more peaceful-seeming and deflect absolutely everything with humor?


----------



## Sara Torailles

Nonsense said:


> Sounds slightly ironic, not gonna lie.


Yeah, possibly. Depending on what my type is. :tongue:


----------



## Kintsugi

Chesire Tower said:


> Not gonna comment on @_Shamy_'s typing (since I wasn't asked amongst other reasons lol) but I do agree with her regarding a common typing fallacy that you are advocating here: which is you know a 5 who is very different from someone who happens to type as a 5. The enneagram is not so much about *behaviours* as is *motivations*.


I agree that it's about behavior and motivations, but my point was more about my bf and her _both _being INTJ and core 5s (most likely sx/sp). I just find it odd how different they both appear to me considering the similarities in their type. Granted, I know very little about Enneagram, which is why I said I couldn't really expand because I'm still trying to understand this stuff. I was merely offering my observations, really. It's part of the learning process. In fact, this whole conversation really goes to highlight what I already thought, which is that Enneagram is _way _too vague and subjective to really be applied to others. It's better used as an introspective tool, it seems.

I think my issue is more with the INTJ typing than core 5, but that's a completely different subject all-together, so I'll stop here.

@_Shamy_

Like I said, I respect that it's a personal process/journey. I was just offering my observations.


----------



## Superfluous

@Shamy so you're going with the function order of INTJ instead of ISFP? I could see it.

You and I had a talk about you being 5 over 4 because what 4s and 5s are taught, and then throughout their life, becomes a bit of their complex. I suppose I never really thought 5w4 vs 5w6 because your 4 fix is apparent. I do agree with SoM! 

As I was talking to Daphne once, and your Fi could be developed higher because lets say... someone with Fi last, lets say an ENTJ, was raised with and was very close with, lets say, a Fi dom, naturally youre Fi is going to be developed further along than the other random ENTJ who refuses to let people in for a good bit of their life. And then naturally, NTJs look at these people & see their Fi and naturally want to retype them. So as long as you feel content with the function order than, yay! INTJ 5w6! Voila. Happy for you!


----------



## Golden Rose

Superfluous said:


> @Shamy so you're going with the function order of INTJ instead of ISFP? I could see it.


ISFP was never anything I even considered



> You and I had a talk about you being 5 over 4 because what 4s and 5s are taught, and then throughout their life, becomes a bit of their complex. I suppose I never really thought 5w4 vs 5w6 because your 4 fix is apparent. I do agree with SoM!


I don't think it's as apparent as you both think, even more so in person and after getting the full picture.



> As I was talking to Daphne once, and your Fi could be developed higher because lets say... someone with Fi last, lets say an ENTJ, was raised with and was very close with, lets say, a Fi dom, naturally youre Fi is going to be developed further along than the other random ENTJ who refuses to let people in for a good bit of their life. And then naturally, NTJs look at these people & see their Fi and naturally want to retype them. So as long as you feel content with the function order than, yay! INTJ 5w6! Voila. Happy for you!


Replying to this to clear some misconceptions I've seen thrown around in the last few pages.
You might disagree and that's fine because it'd bring a lot more interesting discussion.

Trolling/disintegration not withstanding my original typing was INTJ.
My Fi is not unnaturally high, my Te is not inferior by any stretch of the imagination and inferior Ni? No.

I've yet to get professionally tested some more but I'm an Aspie with PTSD and clinical depression.
If you consider the kind of life I've had, not only I'm not particularly sensitive, I'm cold.
The tertiary function develops in a person's 20s and so did mine.
Most of my 'emotional' text posts were me applying my observation of emotions and learning how to deal with those. Written with a deadpan state of mind, struggling to use verbalization to understand them .
Have you seen how similar to Erica's they were? Unintentionally. 
I wanted to escape previous ridiculous typings and prove a point.
I was learning. I was going through a breakup and depressive apathy.

I invite you to see how I handle debates or to talk to me in video again.
I'm not a feeler, I'm harsh. I'm dry. I'm pragmatic and sarcastic. In the chat I was the sore thumb.
My Fe PolR emerged even more when interacting with an ENFJ in there and other Fe users.

I don't mean to convince anyone but I can see it in me.
Ni as the point, the meaning of things and Te creating a concrete backbone for it to rest on.
Of course, i can mimic Ne and Fi. I know the theory, I have high observational skills.

Any kind of high feeling type was a bit of wish fulfillment and a punishment.
I was a child genius, I had a future in science and I turned into a shut in whose main ambition was PerC.
I hadn't interacted directly with people outside family for over a year. 
This sounds quite pathetic but that's not my intent.

My point is that, most INTJs seem to see me as quite typical.
People around me confirm, I see myself that way too.
Developing Fi while being overwhelmed by social interaction and having a poor grasp on emotional clues is hell. I can decode people and their interactions, I just don't apply it immediately to a situation. 

I don't care to either. I'll speak my mind unless it means a waste of energy and added socializing.

Also, Fi = strong unwavering principles.
If you've noticed my values constantly shift according to what's more practical and convenient to me.

Disintegration to 7/inf Se quite evident.

I was never really questioning my MBTI/Socion type but there you have it.


----------



## Superfluous

I do want to comment @Shamy that Fi doesnt mean sensitivity... nor does it mean youre a "feeler". INTJs experience Fi, does that mean their sensitive and feely? not exactly. Fi just means you respect your values, and it doesnt mean youre _stuck_ in them, especially with the help other functions - youre allowed to be swayed into other ideas with new information. You can be COLD with Fi, even as a Fi dom.

I never saw you as a feely sensitive person, so I'm not applying Fi to you like OH LALA LA LA youre such Fi, such precious, ooh. But if you're aware of Fi in you, you can notice it in others? If youre saying that you have *no* Fi whatsoever because youre seemingly a typical INTJ then, well, er, ooook? INTJs USE Fi. And they can be very stubborn in their values once they've made up their mind about it... :frustrating: 

The only reason why I mentioned the whole youre Fi thing could be more developed by other Fi users is because you have TYPED yourself as a Fi dom, so I was giving reasoning on why an INTJ could mistype themself. I suppose I'm not a well communicator.


----------



## sittapygmaea

@Shamy What caused the firefly to fly away? And what does "shamy" mean/represent (if you care to say)? I do love the moon avatar. It reminds me of @yippy's old avatar that I used to admire. Moon over water conveys serenity and pleasant solitude, quiet, cold to me. 

I'm curious where you got this description of So4. I haven't looked into the stacking much; I'm suspicious of some of the type specific iterations, but everything I've considered thus far suggests sp/sx or sx/sp for myself. I have none of the preoccupations of general SO, such as those you cited it in a subsequent post: "So is focus on people and power dynamics within society. A strong interest in politics, social justice, human connections." Yet I could identify with many of the SO 4 traits you listed (I put them in bold, leaving unbolded certain parts that didn't apply, e.g. I definitely "can be highly self-critical and feel ashamed" though I wouldn't say it's because of my "deviance from imagined group norms" so I left that out. I am ashamed of my deviance from my own standards and the standards of specific others whose opinion I value and whose opinion of me either is or I imagine to be low. I would say it's important that the failures are to live up to standards rather than "norms"). I'm realizing that many of the phenomena are more generally applicable [e.g.: envy, shame, self-loathing, self-criticism, social withdrawal, feeling of being 'defective']-- none of these are not SO 4 specific. 

Well, I suppose I'm sort of answering my own question, but there are a few that stand out on this list, namely awareness of other people's expectations, feeling uncomfortably exposed in social situations, misanthropy, feeling "protective of negative differences" and sensitivity to perceived criticism and slights. 

I'm curious if you have any further thoughts on this? Perhaps you have none, which is fine-- no need to muck around for thoughts that don't present themselves. 



Shamy said:


> *Type 4 So
> *
> Shame in not measuring up to group standards.
> 
> *The feeling that one's own worth is not equal to the expectations of others.
> *
> *A sense of not meeting the standards of what others are capable of meeting, of an inner defectiveness of being that will eventually be seen *and lead to rejection.
> 
> *Can be highly self critical and feel ashamed* of their deviance from imagined group norms.
> 
> *Want to hide away from probing eyes, to eliminate social encounters that might bring deficiency to light.*
> 
> *Develop an unusual sensitivity to social slights* and a parallel desire for recognition.
> 
> *Feelings of envy arise in comparing self to others.*
> 
> *Sensitive to criticism.*
> 
> Terror of rejection, of having the fatal flaw detected.
> 
> May romanticize defects but feel bad about themselves anyway.
> 
> *Feel misunderstood.*
> 
> Believe they are despised by others and fear that others might be able to read their thoughts and feelings and condemn them because of this.
> 
> Afraid their outward appearance will be rejected.
> 
> Image is heightened as a protective measure; elite memberships, a unique social presentation, *looking* attractive and *somewhat aloof, above the common crowd.*
> 
> Feelings of low self esteem, often based on actual losses in the past, perpetuate the illusion that other people posses what is missing.
> 
> *They cannot live up to their own high standards, perpetuating shame.*
> 
> *Will attack themselves looking for the fatal flaw, the defective quality of being. Fiercely protective of their negative differences.*
> 
> With a 3 wing may cover shame with charm and an flashy image.
> 
> *With a five wing will grow anti-social and depressed, bearing their shame in solitude.*
> 
> Dies over each mistake or social faux pas they make.
> 
> Often feels inadequate socially and either pours on charm or blends into the woodwork.
> 
> *Always analyzing themselves; "Did I make myself understood", "Did I sound Stupid?", "Was I too aggressive?", "Was I too conciliatory"
> *
> Needs to be missed.
> 
> *Hypersensitivity*. Desire to be among the elite combined with doubts about being up to it. Cultured. Refined. Need to be seen as desired. Lofty image. Rejecting one's qualities. Fantasies of being royal. Class shame. Can't function like "normal people".
> 
> Defends defects, yet feels disadvantaged.
> 
> Don't know how to be part of the social world.
> 
> Seeks achievement and attention to make up for flaws "they won't make fun of me now". Even evident in the 5 wing.
> 
> Attraction to deviant behavior when unhealthy.
> 
> *Anti social* in lower levels of health.
> 
> *Misanthropic.
> 
> Easily withdraws to lick wounds.*
> 
> The social 4 felt that their shame was hidden because it pertained to a way in which or where they were reared. They felt they were always trying to be socially one level above where they felt they truly belonged. When they finally achieved the level they had longed for it was still not enough, so they had to strive to be at the next level, and so on. They described a never ending pressure to be more while still feeling they were inadequate, and a fear that someone would discover their humble beginnings.
> 
> Social situations are a dance between being charming or shameful.
> 
> Feelings of low self esteem-"God didn't give me what others have"
> 
> Drive to achieve-when people start to give up on me I can really come through and seek revenge.
> 
> Wants to be honored for specialness. Intense shame at desiring and seeking attention.
> 
> Attempts to seek attention are quickly countered with withdraw. "Oh, God they know I need attention, how shameful!"
> 
> Can appear like 1's, but with a decisively more shameful and self loathing bent. "I am so screwed up, I must hide this, but I want you to know how wrong I am too, but respect this as a special and noble quality".
> 
> Wounded healer quality much like the self pres 4.
> 
> Diplomatic, charming, and quite *articulate. Anger is displayed through hateful withdraw and biting sarcasm or wit*.


----------



## Golden Rose

@Superfluous

I guess I misread the meaning of what you were trying to say although it's been pointed out to me repeatedly I tend to come across as more dismissive and defensive through text that I actually am. 
I verbalize and explain a lot.

I'm not saying I don't have Fi, INTJs have Fi and how. They're marshmallows.
There's a strong moral background and it's quite grounded even if awkward.
I don't think you see me as a "oooh la la precious Fi-dom child", I respect your intelligence and knowledge.

I was trying to explain why any typing with dominant/auxiliary Fi couldn't work but I probably came across the wrong way. Also, I stand corrected that ISFPs have tertiary Ni not inferior (that's ESFP, one of my favorite types if strong on the Te).

I know I was the first one type myself as that and your explanation made sense.
I was giving an overall view trying to condense all the points that had been raised by various users.

I guess I came across as "WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. NO FI." when that wasn't my intent.
I like Fi a lot, actually.


----------



## Golden Rose

@sittapygmaea
Actually, it's nothing overly special.
A pairing name from a tv series, one of the characters involved being very similar to me.

I can definitely see you as a social 4w5 because your focus is strongly oriented toward people.
Not in a networking way but rather understanding yourself through comparison and the way others perceive you contrasting to the way you see yourself. You have a strong focus on understanding people around you.

Fe tends to be equated with the social instinct but that's not a given.

For example, @Lunar Light is a social 6 ENFP and her soc manifests through an interest in human connections and a broad focus on the humanity around her. She's curious about others and their stories, she sees connections and patterns, she's aware of how others interact and she prefers spreading her focus rather than having her self interest or a single bond as the center of her concerns.

I see that in you.

I'm sx/sp and I generally don't pay much attention to any of those things.
Once a sx bond has been created, that and my own personal needs are what I care about the most.
I'm not curious about stories and human connections, I have little interest in group dynamics.

I walk in and out according to what piques my interest and whether my main instincts have been satisfied.
I'm quite socially clueless, more responsive than a seeker in that regard. Although very inquisitive.

The description was from here: http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/110177-instincts-descriptions-fours.html


----------



## Kisshoten

Superfluous said:


> As I was talking to Daphne once, and your Fi could be developed higher because lets say... someone with Fi last, *lets say an ENTJ, was raised with and was very close with, lets say, a Fi dom, naturally youre Fi is going to be developed further along than the other random ENTJ* who refuses to let people in for a good bit of their life. And then naturally, NTJs look at these people & see their Fi and naturally want to retype them. So as long as you feel content with the function order than, yay! INTJ 5w6! Voila. Happy for you!


yeah, don't go about believing that your hypothesis is true because of a random example that conforms to the assumption. 

I have inferior Si and I was raised by an Si dom. My inferior Si is seriously inferior. I can't take care of my Si needs unless an Si dom constantly serves to remind me of them, and even then, not always. Proximity does not lead to.. development or improvement in proficiency of function usage. 

A lot of things, more than just proximity, play into whether or not a particular person is able to... adjust well to, or exhibit, characteristics associated with particular cognitive functions. My other parent is a Te dom and I have no Te in me. I suck at Te things and I get annoyed very easily if I am forced to conform to Te. But, I'm a head type and so, I appear similar to the Te dom parent more than the Si dom parent. A long time ago, people had suggested I/ENFP with strong Te and I'm guessing that was because of the similarity I have just mentioned. Doesn't mean the observations are accurate. 

Just something to keep in mind.


----------



## Darkbloom

Can someone pleeeease finally tell me what a Fe dom 4 would be like? I'm really feeling it way more that I could ever feel 2.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Shamy said:


> *Type 4 So
> *
> Shame in not measuring up to group standards.
> 
> The feeling that one's own worth is not equal to the expectations of others.
> 
> A sense of not meeting the standards of what others are capable of meeting, of an inner defectiveness of being that will eventually be seen and lead to rejection.
> 
> Can be highly self critical and feel ashamed of their deviance from imagined group norms.
> 
> Want to hide away from probing eyes, to eliminate social encounters that might bring deficiency to light.
> 
> Develop an unusual sensitivity to social slights and a parallel desire for recognition.
> 
> Feelings of envy arise in comparing self to others.
> 
> Sensitive to criticism.
> 
> Terror of rejection, of having the fatal flaw detected.
> 
> May romanticize defects but feel bad about themselves anyway.
> 
> Feel misunderstood.
> 
> Believe they are despised by others and fear that others might be able to read their thoughts and feelings and condemn them because of this.
> 
> Afraid their outward appearance will be rejected.
> 
> Image is heightened as a protective measure; elite memberships, a unique social presentation, looking attractive and somewhat aloof, above the common crowd.
> 
> Feelings of low self esteem, often based on actual losses in the past, perpetuate the illusion that other people posses what is missing.
> 
> They cannot live up to their own high standards, perpetuating shame.
> 
> Will attack themselves looking for the fatal flaw, the defective quality of being. Fiercely protective of their negative differences.
> 
> With a 3 wing may cover shame with charm and an flashy image.
> 
> With a five wing will grow anti-social and depressed, bearing their shame in solitude.
> 
> Dies over each mistake or social faux pas they make.
> 
> Often feels inadequate socially and either pours on charm or blends into the woodwork.
> 
> Always analyzing themselves; "Did I make myself understood", "Did I sound Stupid?", "Was I too aggressive?", "Was I too conciliatory"
> 
> Needs to be missed.
> 
> Hypersensitivity. Desire to be among the elite combined with doubts about being up to it. Cultured. Refined. Need to be seen as desired. Lofty image. Rejecting one's qualities. Fantasies of being royal. Class shame. Can't function like "normal people".
> 
> Defends defects, yet feels disadvantaged.
> 
> Don't know how to be part of the social world.
> 
> Seeks achievement and attention to make up for flaws "they won't make fun of me now". Even evident in the 5 wing.
> 
> Attraction to deviant behavior when unhealthy.
> 
> Anti social in lower levels of health.
> 
> Misanthropic.
> 
> Easily withdraws to lick wounds.
> 
> The social 4 felt that their shame was hidden because it pertained to a way in which or where they were reared. They felt they were always trying to be socially one level above where they felt they truly belonged. When they finally achieved the level they had longed for it was still not enough, so they had to strive to be at the next level, and so on. They described a never ending pressure to be more while still feeling they were inadequate, and a fear that someone would discover their humble beginnings.
> 
> Social situations are a dance between being charming or shameful.
> 
> Feelings of low self esteem-"God didn't give me what others have"
> 
> Drive to achieve-when people start to give up on me I can really come through and seek revenge.
> 
> Wants to be honored for specialness. Intense shame at desiring and seeking attention.
> 
> Attempts to seek attention are quickly countered with withdraw. "Oh, God they know I need attention, how shameful!"
> 
> Can appear like 1's, but with a decisively more shameful and self loathing bent. "I am so screwed up, I must hide this, but I want you to know how wrong I am too, but respect this as a special and noble quality".
> 
> Wounded healer quality much like the self pres 4.
> 
> Diplomatic, charming, and quite articulate.
> 
> Anger is displayed through hateful withdraw and biting sarcasm or wit.


I'll put what fits in blue and what doesn't fit in red.

The breakdown of what fits and what doesn't is as follows:

31 statements mostly fit *(79.49%)*
4 statements do not fit at all *(10.26%)*
4 statements kinda fit or halfway fit *(10.26%)*

My main concerns with the typing:


I don't concern myself with noble status. Money is a nice thing to have, but it doesn't make anyone better or worse than anyone else.

I have a drive to excel and do the best I can, but that's more to secure my own autonomy and peace.

I don't have a strong charm. If I did, I would have a better sex life. I admit that I am a humorous person and people think I'm funny because I know how to tell jokes, but not charming. :tongue:

I don't attract myself to deviant behavior. Deviance is a fact of life for me.


----------



## Paradigm

ElliCat said:


> I actually totally agree. I think we are almost always more aware of our emotional states, simply due to the way we like to dwell in them and embrace the negative along with the positive - but that doesn't always lead to a more holistic awareness of one's inner world. In my experience of the lower levels, there's a lot of wilful blindness out of a misguided idea that improving oneself is akin to rejecting one's true identity, and to changing to suit other people.


I don't know. 

Does that imply other types are less aware of their emotional states? And why would they be, if all humans have the capability of emotional IQ? What's the ratio of high EIQ and low EIQ in 4s vs. other types? How many with high EIQ, or strong emotions, are falsely typed as 4?

I realize it's a sort of moot point, because if I'm right it becomes a circular argument: the 4s may erroneously claim more skill only because their identity is attached to it, while the non-4s can never know if they have more skill or not because they are not 4s.

To be fair this could really apply to nearly any trait tied to a type. Anxiety and 6 is a oft-used one, though that has different nuances and people conflate anxiety with mental disorders.



> I think that's the problem when you tie behaviour to a type. What happens when someone displays non-typical behaviour, but is driven by the same fears?


That depends a *ton *on context. But there's two main routes:

1. They are the type whose fears they're being driven by, behavior be damned.
2. They're misinterpreting their fears (or the system), and are not that type.

I'm a cynic so I'm wanting to say #2 is more common, but for the sake of optimism we can say it's 50/50.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Animal said:


> @_Mandraque_
> 
> We are on skype right now  but yeah. From photos & more I can see why you say 6w5 instead of 6w7. just wanted to say that. It makes sense. So first, too.


Thank you! Half of perC believes i am a a 6w7 because i told many times i was hedonistic, etc... but the issues is that my hedonism comes from inferior Se grip. I am sure I am a 6w5.


----------



## Superfluous

Vergil said:


> yeah, don't go about believing that your hypothesis is true because of a random example that conforms to the assumption.
> 
> I have inferior Si and I was raised by an Si dom. My inferior Si is seriously inferior. I can't take care of my Si needs unless an Si dom constantly serves to remind me of them, and even then, not always. Proximity does not lead to.. development or improvement in proficiency of function usage.
> 
> A lot of things, more than just proximity, play into whether or not a particular person is able to... adjust well to, or exhibit, characteristics associated with particular cognitive functions. My other parent is a Te dom and I have no Te in me. I suck at Te things and I get annoyed very easily if I am forced to conform to Te. But, I'm a head type and so, I appear similar to the Te dom parent more than the Si dom parent. A long time ago, people had suggested I/ENFP with strong Te and I'm guessing that was because of the similarity I have just mentioned. Doesn't mean the observations are accurate.
> 
> Just something to keep in mind.


yeah, lol, relax a little. I was intending to emphasize "_your Fi *could* be developed higher because... [hypothesis here]_." I wasn't meaning to applying my theory on the whole existance of mbti, therefore applying it to you, him, her, and everyone under the umbrella. Maybe it was the wording "naturally" that made me look so sure of theory. *shrugs*


----------



## ElliCat

Paradigm said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Does that imply other types are less aware of their emotional states? And why would they be, if all humans have the capability of emotional IQ? What's the ratio of high EIQ and low EIQ in 4s vs. other types? How many with high EIQ, or strong emotions, are falsely typed as 4?


I don't know either. 

I'd love to know; it would certainly help with some "am I 4?" topics! I don't think it's possible to do any decent research in that area, though, because how can you find a truly objective way of making sure people aren't mistyped in a system like Enneagram? I just know I've been surprised at how many people _don't_ have a clear idea of what they feel or why they feel it, because my own feelings have always been completely obvious to me. 

Maybe I'm wrong to attribute it to 4 though*. Maybe it's an Fi thing, although that then goes into the whole "Fi = values not emotions" thing. Or maybe it's just a sensitivity thing in general, and it would then affect many types. Still learning to separate traits properly, as you can see. I guess that's the downside of figuring your types out first, before coming in to discuss... I know how everything works together in my case, but when it comes to isolating certain types I honestly don't really know. That's why I lurk in threads like these, to watch other people try to dissect it. 

Falsely typed 4's I guess would be easier to answer, if they become aware that they were mistyped and could explain why they were mistyped. But again that begs the question of whether any further mistypes occur? How well do any of us know ourselves? I think I know myself, but maybe my delusions are so attached to my ego that I'm less able to tell them apart from reality?

(Not gonna lie, not being able to explain myself bothers me more than it should. Sometimes I think I should just communicate in questions and let other people answer them.)


*I suppose you're cautioning against conflating "strong emotions" with "4", in which case I'd agree that it would be a wise move. Same with "I'm concerned with my identity therefore I must be a 4" - well I guess that makes most people interested in typology 4's then? I was trying to get at something a bit more complicated than that, because while I do think "emotions" and a need to "know oneself" are part of being a 4, it's the way they play together with each other and other elements (shame, envy, etc) that make the type. I can't explain it any better than that, though, so I think it's better to not even try, lest I get myself into an even bigger mess.  



> I realize it's a sort of moot point, because if I'm right it becomes a circular argument: the 4s may erroneously claim more skill only because their identity is attached to it, while the non-4s can never know if they have more skill or not because they are not 4s.


Exactly. It becomes really hard to compare because people are only going to use subjective terms. Or if they do try to make it objective, they're still only describing their subjective experience. I can compare myself to what I observe, but I never really _know_. I can only try to make an educated guess, but again, how educated it really is, I've got no idea. I'd like to think I can set aside a good amount of my biases but the reality is probably something else.



> To be fair this could really apply to nearly any trait tied to a type. Anxiety and 6 is a oft-used one, *though that has different nuances and people conflate anxiety with mental disorders*.


Well that's pretty much my answer to it. I'm lucky in that I've seen myself with less severe anxiety in the recent past, enough to have a good idea of who I'd be without it. It must be a lot harder to separate the two if it's something that doesn't fluctuate or improve with treatment. I can understand why some people have a difficult typing journey in that case. 



> That depends a *ton *on context. But there's two main routes:
> 
> 1. They are the type whose fears they're being driven by, behavior be damned.
> 2. They're misinterpreting their fears (or the system), and are not that type.
> 
> I'm a cynic so I'm wanting to say #2 is more common, but for the sake of optimism we can say it's 50/50.


Yeah it was more of a rhetorical question, because obviously in the case of a self-aware individual, point number 1 wins out. I honestly have no idea how much number 2 plays out, so I don't want to comment on that.


----------



## Kisshoten

Superfluous said:


> yeah, lol, relax a little. I was intending to emphasize "_your Fi *could* be developed higher because... [hypothesis here]_." I wasn't meaning to applying my theory on the whole existance of mbti, therefore applying it to you, him, her, and everyone under the umbrella. Maybe it was the wording "naturally" that made me look so sure of theory. *shrugs*


Heh, I was relaxed. You should see what I'm like when I am not..  Ti can be very exacting.

See normally, when you have to resort to..."maybe X explains why you're the exception to the norm" chances are, you're missing something crucial. Not everything is cookie-cutter level of fixed and not everything can be understood purely from reading. That is where intuition comes into play. 

But, do carry on. I have no idea who you're talking to and why. I just stepped in to be the nerd that I am.


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> Yeah, "ego" would explain it better, I guess. Slightly engrained but mostly habit or a coping mechanism. It's not even that I'm really looking for agreement (though I hate any variation of "stop whining"), but for me, saying it out loud is as if I'm not making it up. I'm in my own head a lot, and sometimes I'm afraid I'm imagining things or seeing things from a distorted perspective. I guess I find comfort in seeing reality for what it is (Te-Se?), in these situations; transparency in social situations is even more important to me (6). Expressing it makes it more tangible and solveable, allows more viewpoints and thus less distortion possible.
> 
> Also there's a study that swearing makes pain more tolerable, and I don't think it's too huge a leap to theorize complaining makes frustration more tolerable xD
> 
> That's part of why I type as 6w7, though, because I utilize these types of mechanisms - 6w7 is more people-oriented. I'm really crap at conversing, my interpersonal skills _suck_, and my motto may as well be "people suck"... I'm very individualistic and independent, but I still rely on My People for their support. And My People see the real, total 614 me and hear my complaints and sarcastic comments and idealistic / Ni (often thought of as insane) musings -- whereas strangers see the warm, flexible SP 6 me who rolls with the punches and is polite as hell. (Though, to be clear because stereotypes, I'm strongly driven to protect my autonomy, and I have no identity via "My People." I only capitalize it to reflect how few people can be called that - I'm extremely insular and rarely find security in others, so when I do it's a Big Thing.)
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I don't even know what it feels like to find identity in heritage, ideology, or society, or anything like that. I have none of those things. I feel no connection to cousins or even most of my extended family; intellectually I know they're blood, but I see no reason to act like blood is important if I don't know them. I find being loyal to land to be stupid - sure this might be the place you grew up or whatever, but it's just a place to live, and living is more important than dying in defense of it. And why bother being so connected to nationality, people are people.
> 
> Oddly, though, I do love learning about different cultures... I just don't really understand why some put their entire identity into it, or resist (natural, not forced) adaptations to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I turned this into a sort of stream-of-consciousness :laughing: I'm still pretty sure I didn't answer what you were getting at... I think I need to nap off some after-dinner haziness


I like your stream of consciousness answer.  Right now I'm not able to reply to it, in the way I would like to, but I will asap.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Kintsugi said:


> I agree that it's about behavior and motivations, but my point was more about my bf and her _both _being INTJ and core 5s (most likely sx/sp). I just find it odd how different they both appear to me considering the similarities in their type. Granted, I know very little about Enneagram, which is why I said I couldn't really expand because I'm still trying to understand this stuff. I was merely offering my observations, really. It's part of the learning process. In fact, this whole conversation really goes to highlight what I already thought, which is that Enneagram is _way _too vague and subjective to really be applied to others. It's better used as an introspective tool, it seems.
> 
> I think my issue is more with the INTJ typing than core 5, but that's a completely different subject all-together, so I'll stop here.
> 
> @_Shamy_
> 
> Like I said, I respect that it's a personal process/journey. I was just offering my observations.


No, comparing different behaviours is fine; it's just that in of itself - without considering inner motivations - can lead to mistyping people. If others share with you their primary fears, motivations and desires; then that would be an excellent basis for attempting to type someone.

It's good that you're tying to learn how to type others; please don't let other peoples' criticisms deter you from pursuing that. It's the only way you can learn.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

RinnayDelRey said:


> You're not a 9, you're too passive-aggressive and reactive to be one, IMO. Maybe 6? Idk.


I agree with this, sans the passive-aggressive part (which could apply to a lot of 9s)



Sara Torailles said:


> I've heard Type 9 is famously passive-aggressive, though...
> I'm probably some sort of 6 or something but I don't know enough about typing to really say. Furthermore, isn't a disintegrated Nine Six-like in mannerisms?
> Oh, and I'm going to contest you on any typing you make to get more info. If you typed me as Nine, I would contest that, too.


my main reason for typing you at 6 or Social 4 (possibly Social 7w6, but less likely) is 
1) you don't come off as gut center. even very friendly 9s like @The King Of Dreams come off much more noticeably gut center when you converse with them at length
2) you are opinionated and unafraid of controversy
3) similarly, you are far more critical than any 9 I've seen, even if you don't have the pseudo-positive outlook I've noticed in most 6w7s
4) to be honest, you strike as relatively _non_-passive aggressive for a 9. sure, there is an implicit spitefulness in some of your posts, but it's typically of a more "hate the sin, not the sinner" variety, and you seem more direct when you have a problem with an actual person.



> My main concerns with the typing:
> 1) I don't concern myself with noble status. Money is a nice thing to have, but it doesn't make anyone better or worse than anyone else.
> 2) I have a drive to excel and do the best I can, but that's more to secure my own autonomy and peace.
> 3) I don't have a strong charm. If I did, I would have a better sex life. I admit that I am a humorous person and people think I'm funny because I know how to tell jokes, but not charming.
> 4) I don't attract myself to deviant behavior. Deviance is a fact of life for me.


1) wanting "noble status" is more Sexual 4 and 2w1 than it is Social 4. 
2) admittedly, this is unusual for Social 4, but not for 6.
3) I don't agree with that description of Social 4s as "charming". if anything, they're kind of the opposite and are likely to view charm as fraudulent and conformist
4) ....said no 9 ever :tongue: in all seriousness, this is something which a 4, 6, 7 or 8 would be much more likely to say. also, that you say "fact of life" specifically is telling that it's more of a core thing for you rather than some personality trait you acquired. for example, I am likely a 7, and the idea of people trying to be funny is weird to me. they make it sound like 7s take pride in being these ridiculous goofballs all the time, but it's more of an automatic thing. my mind naturally gravitates toward satire, shocking commentary, perversion and clever remarks (if anything, I feel a lot more pressure to be serious and repress this part of my personality offline, relying more on my 1-ish/8-ish side)


----------



## Figure

Superfluous said:


> yeah, lol, relax a little. I was intending to emphasize "_your Fi *could* be developed higher because... [hypothesis here]_." I wasn't meaning to applying my theory on the whole existance of mbti, therefore applying it to you, him, her, and everyone under the umbrella. Maybe it was the wording "naturally" that made me look so sure of theory. *shrugs*


Yeah, I can see why you say that, but it works a bit differently than that. That's one area where enneagram and MBTI, in fact, are very different. With Jung, you can't "move within" a function. Each type is innately and forever apt and not apt in a set of functions. You can learn to respect the POV of other functions from the POV of another person's preference, but you'll never really have that preference yourself. 

For an ENTJ, to go back to your example, Fi is by definition of the type, a weak function. They cannot "develop" that function to the point of being able to use its information fluidly/in changing situations by definition of their type. Being "weak in Fi" also, to make things clear, does not mean that they will not be friendly to other people, or try to be close with others (I have a good ENTJ type 3w2 friend who is borderline clingy, and gives more to homeless people than I do) but rather that they lack awareness of how they feel about personal connections and personal feelings towards situations, and subconsciously expect that others will take care of that part. 

In cases where someone grows up with people around who are strong in their last function, they will typically learn to depend on that person's fluidness in that function more than become fluent in it themselves (since they can't). 


I know this isn't a Jung forum, but just wanted to point it out since we are now morphing MBTI and enneagram topics on this thread XD


----------



## ShadowPrince

Mandraque said:


> Thank you! Half of perC believes i am a a 6w7 because i told many times i was hedonistic, etc... but the issues is that my hedonism comes from inferior Se grip. I am sure I am a 6w5.


I haven't read many of your posts but I saw your video questionnaire and in it you said you can "hate people because I'm a bit puritan" (or something like that), and because "they are just about parties and living in the moment." So in what way are you hedonistic if you are also puritanical and dislike other people's indulgence?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Paradigm said:


> Nope, disagree entirely xD I've known two 479s (a 794 and 947, specifically) and they're both kind of narcissistic, actually. While they definitely do the whole authenticity and identity thing, *they also shy away from the dark and hard thinking parts in the stereotypical "positive outlook" manner. It's like you have to be the one to bring it up and stay on the subject, otherwise they won't -- but when you do, they're surprisingly good at it. It's just... fleeting, and they're kinda flighty. And in my opinion, something that fleeting cannot heal, it merely placates, or soothes.* However, it certainly doesn't make things worse.
> 
> That being said... The 947 was an immensely good influence on me. But I could never see him as a "healer," at all. Nor a fairy or spiritual or whatever* the description says, idk. He was sensitive and very tolerant, but that's about it.
> 
> * To think of the 794 in these terms is hilarious, btw. He's very masculine and would laugh his ass off at the archetype description. It's extremely inaccurate.


you basically just outlined one of my biggest reservations for typing at 7. I have never avoided negativity in my life. my perceptiveness and bullshit-calling skills had to be developed (which is probably true of most people), but I've always been a straight talker, and the false positivism I've experienced from most 7s (especially non-Sp 7w6) makes me want to gag. 

I can relate to wanting to distract myself, but, if anything, my means of distraction are stereotypically 4-ish (which is weird, because I think 7 and 2 are in my tritype lol) and involve being distracted _with_ darkness rather than from it. like any healthy person, I enjoy a good laugh now and then, but, unless the humor is exceptionally offensive or perverted, I get bored quickly and feel as if I have drunk too much sugar water (most American comedy also tends to be extremely supplicating, which I find disgusting. dry or cocky humor is much preferred). the whole "light energy" shtick of 7 descriptions has never really sat well with me. I would much rather listen to opera or romantic Eastern European music rather than upbeat dub step or watch something violent or tragic rather than a comedy (Rurouni Kenshin and Code Geass are far more appealing animes to me than, say, Hetalia)

the part I relate to a little bit is using humor to lighten up certain heated situations, but this is a learned response which combats my natural tendency to turn into some zealous, Frollo from the Hunchback of Notre Dame character in the midst of a heated debate (a state I was stuck in for the worse half of my teens). 

my main reasons for reconsidering 7 are that the connection points of 7 fit well (1 and 5, some 8, trace amounts of 6) and that I have been increasingly coming to terms with the fact that I am a fucking charlatan :laughing: (in that regard, the fact that I normally _seem_ very authoritative and 1-ish/8-ish/Sp 3-ish is more of a case for 7 rather than a case against it). of course, that's not to say that 2s can't be charlatans (in fact, I would argue many are just as bad as 7s, which is reinforced by their connection to 8 and either the image manipulation skills of a 3 wing or a more commanding presence which results from the combination of a 1's authority with 2's charisma)

at the moment, 7w8 seems to be the "line of best fit" so to speak, even if the Sexual 7 sounds, just...ewww lol. 




> How many with high EIQ, or strong emotions, are falsely typed as 4?


I've never understood how this is even a correlation to begin with. if anything, I would correlate 4s with a comparatively _low_ EQ. when I think high EQ, 2s, 3s and 9s come to mind immediately as better candidates (or possibly Social 7s). 


@Mandraque
with regards to your earlier comment (which I realize was probably mostly a joke), if I wanted a 2-ish avatar, I would have chosen something more epic, or maybe "dangerous seductive" (like Poison Ivy or Damon Salvatore). I would be more inclined to think this picture is 9-ish or Sx 7w6-ish rather than 2-ish


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

ShadowPrince said:


> I haven't read many of your posts but I saw your video questionnaire and in it you said you can "hate people because I'm a bit puritan" (or something like that), and because "they are just about parties and living in the moment." So in what way are you hedonistic if you are also puritanical and dislike other people's indulgence?


because he's a 6, and, like most 6s, is highly contradictory and experiences conflict between his superego and id drives (though superego wins by a long shot imo)


----------



## Sara Torailles

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I agree with this, sans the passive-aggressive part (which could apply to a lot of 9s)
> 
> my main reason for typing you at 6 or Social 4 (possibly Social 7w6, but less likely) is
> 1) you don't come off as gut center. even very friendly 9s like @The King Of Dreams come off much more noticeably gut center when you converse with them at length
> 2) you are opinionated and unafraid of controversy
> 3) similarly, you are far more critical than any 9 I've seen, even if you don't have the pseudo-positive outlook I've noticed in most 6w7s
> 4) to be honest, you strike as relatively _non_-passive aggressive for a 9. sure, there is an implicit spitefulness in some of your posts, but it's typically of a more "hate the sin, not the sinner" variety, and you seem more direct when you have a problem with an actual person.
> 
> 
> 1) wanting "noble status" is more Sexual 4 and 2w1 than it is Social 4.
> 2) admittedly, this is unusual for Social 4, but not for 6.
> 3) I don't agree with that description of Social 4s as "charming". if anything, they're kind of the opposite and are likely to view charm as fraudulent and conformist
> 4) ....said no 9 ever :tongue: in all seriousness, this is something which a 4, 6, 7 or 8 would be much more likely to say. also, that you say "fact of life" specifically is telling that it's more of a core thing for you rather than some personality trait you acquired. for example, I am likely a 7, and the idea of people trying to be funny is weird to me. they make it sound like 7s take pride in being these ridiculous goofballs all the time, but it's more of an automatic thing. my mind naturally gravitates toward satire, shocking commentary, perversion and clever remarks (if anything, I feel a lot more pressure to be serious and repress this part of my personality offline, relying more on my 1-ish/8-ish side)


1) What's that like? Gut center?

2) There are things I won't discuss off internet around a lot of people, and I feel like I need to. Like HIV issues. Never mind, that's a lie. Well, actually it's more that when someone talks about it, I butt in with current research and oh my god I _am_ unafraid of controversy everywhere. I even have this skeevy manipulative side that pushes people to think controversially.

3) I look much more like I have a positive outlook in the real world and am described as optimistic by many, but I don't have the adventurousness of the 7.

4) Probs not a Nine. Someone on some personality forum which is now dead directed me to it when I talked about not knowing what I identify with, and I identified with the descriptions of not knowing who I was, identifying with union, and even peacekeeping to some extent. There's a part of me that hates conflict, and a part of me that thrives on it. Oh, and I don't like distracting myself with negativity. It just happens to envelop me in a way I can't see any escape.

5) I thought it was that the post was ancient and not with the times in terms of understanding people.

6) I view authenticity as a thing for the lucky ones who don't live being ashamed of who they are and afraid of how people will recieve that.

7) I don't view fraudulence as necessarily wrong. People do what they need to do and say what they need to say to survive. And the discrepancy between how people see you and who you really are is a universal.

8) Yeah, my point was in response to how Fours will "engage in deviant behavior when distressed". I mostly just isolate myself more and more after making some usually failed effort to reach out. I don't think people realize how fundamentally alone I am. I wish I knew how not to be, but it's hard to find people who would really understand you. I never fell in love, even though I wanted to chase that. The thought of someone seeing everything you are and not wanting to get the hell out of there is something that appeals to me greatly.

If someone starts beong attracted to me and I don't wanna be attracted to them, I use authenticity to kill it. I use very strong TMI to get people to run. In the way of "You don't want to be with me. I'm pretty much broken."

People tell me that I should be having more sex, but it sucks when you have a sex drive and feel shame at the mere thought of orgasming in front of another person. When you feel ashamed of even looking when someone tries to please you in that way. When you develop rape fantasies because you figure that's the only way you could really achieve sexual satisfaction.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Mandraque_
> with regards to your earlier comment (which I realize was probably mostly a joke), if I wanted a 2-ish avatar, I would have chosen something more epic, or maybe "dangerous seductive" (like Poison Ivy or Damon Salvatore). I would be more inclined to think this picture is 9-ish or Sx 7w6-ish rather than 2-ish


When I said you weren't a 2 I wasn't referring to your avatar.

ps: what makes me laugh is that you can type other people and fictional characters but not you, even being a Fi user


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Mandraque said:


> When I said you weren't a 2 I wasn't referring to your avatar.
> 
> ps: what makes me laugh is that you can type other people and fictional characters but not you, even being a Fi user


as I've said for awhile now, my problems with self typing do not stem from a lack of self awareness, but a lack of coherence in the information I read about each type.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Sara Torailles said:


> 1) What's that like? Gut center?
> 
> 2) There are things I won't discuss off internet around a lot of people, and I feel like I need to. Like HIV issues. Never mind, that's a lie. Well, actually it's more that when someone talks about it, I butt in with current research and oh my god I _am_ unafraid of controversy everywhere. I even have this skeevy manipulative side that pushes people to think controversially.
> 
> 3) I look much more like I have a positive outlook in the real world and am described as optimistic by many, but I don't have the adventurousness of the 7.
> 
> 4) Probs not a Nine. Someone on some personality forum which is now dead directed me to it when I talked about not knowing what I identify with, and I identified with the descriptions of not knowing who I was, identifying with union, and even peacekeeping to some extent. There's a part of me that hates conflict, and a part of me that thrives on it. Oh, and I don't like distracting myself with negativity. It just happens to envelop me in a way I can't see any escape.
> 
> 5) I thought it was that the post was ancient and not with the times in terms of understanding people.
> 
> 6) I view authenticity as a thing for the lucky ones who don't live being ashamed of who they are and afraid of how people will recieve that.
> 
> 7) I don't view fraudulence as necessarily wrong. People do what they need to do and say what they need to say to survive. And the discrepancy between how people see you and who you really are is a universal.
> 
> 8) Yeah, my point was in response to how Fours will "engage in deviant behavior when distressed". I mostly just isolate myself more and more after making some usually failed effort to reach out. I don't think people realize how fundamentally alone I am. I wish I knew how not to be, but it's hard to find people who would really understand you. I never fell in love, even though I wanted to chase that. The thought of someone seeing everything you are and not wanting to get the hell out of there is something that appeals to me greatly.
> 
> If someone starts beong attracted to me and I don't wanna be attracted to them, I use authenticity to kill it. I use very strong TMI to get people to run. In the way of "You don't want to be with me. I'm pretty much broken."
> 
> People tell me that I should be having more sex, but it sucks when you have a sex drive and feel shame at the mere thought of orgasming in front of another person. When you feel ashamed of even looking when someone tries to please you in that way. When you develop rape fantasies because you figure that's the only way you could really achieve sexual satisfaction.


I'm more convinced of Social 4 after reading this =)

as for what does "gut center" look like:
- slower, more measured pace
- alternating between very relaxed vs tense restraint of anger (different types will exhibit different ratios of both, with 8s being more the former and 1s more the latter)
- unresponsive, often to the extent of a glazed over "nothing is registering on my radar" look when people are speaking with them. you definitely get the impression of "talk is cheap. what are we actually going to _do_?" 1s are probably the only gut type likely to spend long periods of time debating people.
- 1s and 8s (not so much 9s) tend to have full, resonant voices which project from the gut (though this can be misleading. my voice has been described by many as very gut center and ENTJ-ish, but this has more to do with having had operatic voice training)
- sturdy, resilient energy (especially 8s)


----------



## Sara Torailles

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm more convinced of Social 4 after reading this =)


Jesus. How deep does this rabbit hole go?

Next thing you know, you'll be typing me as a 4w3 > 6w7 > 1w2 so/sx.

Vultures. :tongue:


----------



## cinnabun

Swordsman of Mana said:


> stuff


Did you quote me then delete it? I got a notification


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## Sara Torailles

I totally threw 4w3 > 6w7 > 1w2 so/sx around sardonically, but could that be an accurate typing?

I am someone who's fiery, which is rare for someone who's so/sp, who would be less explosive as a Four, right?

6w7 is a good head fix, because my rationalizing mechanisms are characteristically "us vs. them", and the 7 wing gives me a bent towards the necessity of freedom to express oneself, but not necessarily in a stereotypical Fourish manner, which would be more characterized by Sexual Fours.

My gut tells me to follow a self-managed moral code based on the previous head and heart fixes. I have the motivation to create change and the desire to drive good will.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

RinnayDelRey said:


> Did you quote me then delete it? I got a notification


yeah, I acciddently multiquoted you more than once. sorry about that lol


----------



## ShadowPrince

Swordsman of Mana said:


> because he's a 6, and, like most 6s, is highly contradictory and experiences conflict between his superego and id drives (though superego wins by a long shot imo)


I'm interested in his personal experience regardless of what type he is. One of the flaws with the enneagram is that it ignores sexuality and doesn't give an explanation for why most of humanity seem to turn against pleasure over and over. The only reason that this makes any sense, when you consider that certain entire countries can ban not just erotica but any picture of women showing cleavage, is if there is a natural inclination in certain "types" to be puritanical and disinterested in pleasure. If you argue that these types are 1s and 6s that would still only make up about 22% of the population, which is not nearly enough people to repress sexuality/pleasure to the extent that humanity keeps doing. There needs to be at least one or two more puritanical characters in the enneagram for this to make sense. This is one more reason why I find the enneagram system inaccurate and unsatisfactory.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

ShadowPrince said:


> I'm interested in his personal experience regardless of what type he is. One of the flaws with the enneagram is that it ignores sexuality and doesn't give an explanation for why most of humanity seem to turn against pleasure over and over. The only reason that this makes any sense, when you consider that certain entire countries can ban not just erotica but any picture of women showing cleavage, is if there is a natural inclination in certain "types" to be puritanical and disinterested in pleasure.* If you argue that these types are 1s and 6s that would still only make up about 22% of the population*, which is not nearly enough people to repress sexuality/pleasure to the extent that humanity keeps doing. There needs to be at least one or two more puritanical characters in the enneagram for this to make sense. This is one more reason why I find the enneagram system inaccurate and unsatisfactory.


this assumes that each of the types has a roughly equal distribution among the populace. imo, 6 is a very common type, perhaps comprising about 30% of people. 

if I were to give a VERY rough estimate of what I thought the population break down was (yes, this is just an estimation, so hopefully no one tries to be a nitpicky twat), it might look something like this:

* *




1: 9%
2: 8%
3: 15%
4: 3%
5: 3%
6: 30%
7: 8%
8: 4%
9: 20%

30%+9%=39%, which would be enough to give a particularly strong sway toward Puritanical views. now, let's subtract Sexual 6s, since they really aren't Puritanical at all. if about 1/3 of 6s are Sexual 6, we can subtract another 10% and get 29%, but let's add in Self Preservation 3s (5%) and Social 7s (~2%) and we get around 36% or a little over a third. 

now, let's take a look at types which are more hedonistic in nature. you have the remaining 6% from 7s, plus 4% from 8, maybe 3% from Sexual 2 and 10% from Sexual 6. this totals around 23%, or about 66% the amount of more Puritanical leaning types). those in the middle (especially 9s) would be more inclined to either side with the majority or keep to themselves)


----------



## Kintsugi

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you basically just outlined one of my biggest reservations for typing at 7. I have never avoided negativity in my life. my perceptiveness and bullshit-calling skills had to be developed (which is probably true of most people), but I've always been a straight talker, and the false positivism I've experienced from most 7s (especially non-Sp 7w6) makes me want to gag.


Hmm. I'm a 7 and I don't really avoid negativity. Well, my issue is that I don't stick with it long enough to properly process it (which is linked into not being "present" and disconnecting when I'm triggered). I think he 7s being happy-clappy shallow fuckwits that completely deny pain and suffering is a stereotype that needs to _*DIE*_, personally.

I also experience false positivism with others 7s, but I think that's what you see and experience when you don't really know them that well. And, hell, I think it's bloody hard trying to get close to a 7. Talking completely from experience here, but I keep most people at arms length; very few people get through my defenses in order to maintain and develop a true intimate bond/connection with me. Why is that? It's complicated. For starters, I'm an incredibly dark, cynical, and frustrated bastard underneath my more somewhat "bubbly" persona. A lot of people don't want to deal with that crap, and in the past I have been burnt by people who completely freaked out when I revealed the darker sides of soul to them. Also, it's much easier to get what you want through charming others, lol. 



> I can relate to wanting to distract myself, but, if anything, my means of distraction are stereotypically 4-ish (which is weird, because I think 7 and 2 are in my tritype lol) and involve being distracted _withdarkness rather than from it. like any healthy person, I enjoy a good laugh now and then, but, unless the humor is exceptionally offensive or perverted, I get bored quickly and feel as if I have drunk too much sugar water (most American comedy also tends to be extremely supplicating, which I find disgusting. dry or cocky humor is much preferred). the whole "light energy" shtick of 7 descriptions has never really sat well with me. I would much rather listen to opera or romantic Eastern European music rather than upbeat dub step or watch something violent or tragic rather than a comedy (Rurouni Kenshin and Code Geass are far more appealing animes to me than, say, Hetalia)
> _


Again, I relate. I _love _dark stuff. Most stuff that makes me laugh usually shocks people. I often have to "tone it down" otherwise I end up getting myself in trouble. I have told you before, I think you are an xSFP, and this kinda relates to what I perceive as Gamma-ish humor. Sometimes I feel that a lot what you are trying to classify (your observations= Se) is better off being done so through a system like Jung/MBTI/Socionics. Much easier to put observations in boxes than with Enneagram, which is super vague and subjective.



> my main reasons for reconsidering 7 are that the connection points of 7 fit well (1 and 5, some 8, trace amounts of 6) and that I have been increasingly coming to terms with the fact that I am a fucking charlatan:laughing: (in that regard, the fact that I normally _seem very authoritative and 1-ish/8-ish/Sp 3-ish is more of a case for 7 rather than a case against it). of course, that's not to say that 2s can't be charlatans (in fact, I would argue many are just as bad as 7s, which is reinforced by their connection to 8 and either the image manipulation skills of a 3 wing or a more commanding presence which results from the combination of a 1's authority with 2's charisma)
> 
> at the moment, 7w8 seems to be the "line of best fit" so to speak, even if the Sexual 7 sounds, just...ewww lol._


Yeah, I'm also a charlatan. 

Honestly, after reading this I can see how core 7 could be a good fit for you.


----------



## ShadowPrince

Swordsman of Mana said:


> this assumes that each of the types has a roughly equal distribution among the populace. imo, 6 is a very common type, perhaps comprising about 30% of people.


Numbers may vary, but why would nature produce some types in more numbers than others, specifically one or two particular types? If we assume a divine reality as proposed by the Holy Ideas, then each ennea-type exist to fill a perspective or function in reality, which would be unbalanced with any particular type being favored over the others.

If we consider an evolutionary perspective, then why would nature favor type 6 and the repression of sexuality over producing more sexually free humans in general? Why is super-egoic traits attractive to nature?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

ShadowPrince said:


> Numbers may vary, but why would nature produce some types in more numbers than others, specifically one or two particular types? If we assume a divine reality as proposed by the Holy Ideas, then each ennea-type exist to fill a perspective or function in reality, which would be unbalanced with any particular type being favored over the others.
> 
> If we consider an evolutionary perspective, then why would nature favor type 6 and the repression of sexuality over producing more sexually free humans in general? Why is super-egoic traits attractive to nature?


I wish I could answer this, but it lies far beyond my area of expertise


----------



## HellCat

Swordsman of Mana said:


> as I've said for awhile now, my problems with self typing do not stem from a lack of self awareness, but a lack of coherence in the information I read about each type.



I had the same issue. 

I hope you find your number.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Kintsugi said:


> I think he 7s being happy-clappy shallow fuckwits that completely deny pain and suffering is a stereotype that needs to DIE, personally.


That stereotype died ... for me at least. Once, I started reading "7 confessions" thread. :th_woot:


----------



## Kisshoten

ShadowPrince said:


> If we consider an evolutionary perspective, *then why would nature favor type 6 and the repression of sexuality over producing more sexually free humans in general? Why is super-egoic traits attractive to nature?*


Well, just one thing I can think to point here. 
I doubt it is... nature, or _just_ nature. Because, let's be realistic, even sexually repressive 6s and 1s procreate. For all you know, a 1 might do so for religious reasons, or a 6 might do it because it is expected or whatever else. As to why 6s and 1s would be more common, I'd say that is a result of the force of civilization. Organized civilization as we know it will crumble if you put only 7s, or 8s, or 4s. And, perhaps to put in a way more in line with your wording, civilization is second-nature to us now. Hardly surprising that it should influence, if not out-rightly govern, the way human beings evolve.


----------



## Vaka

ElliCat said:


> Yep, I see things more in terms of dark threads and light thread and everything gets all jumbled up. It's just that if I think about the average effect, I'm probably more light than dark, even though I feel like the opposite. And the reason I feel like the opposite is that I've had similar reactions to you, where I'll voice a thought that I think is perfectly realistic, and people will be all, "that's fucked up Elli!" I know it's their problem for not being able to face up to certain things, but it still makes me wonder if there's something wrong with me after all.


Well, for me, there was a time when my thoughts became more perverse. A fixation on death. Destruction became even more beautiful to me. Death more meaningful. Even images of death somehow more poignant. By nature I think I was always drawn to these things as if they're inherently more meaningful no matter what. I recognize these little assumptions which I'm sure everyone has where they just 'feel' certain things are more real and more true and I don't deny myself these things. So I suppose maybe it's just that willingness to let myself go wherever I'm taken and not hold myself back. But I also don't wish to hinder my mind if I'm drawn to something of the opposite nature. I do think when I was most fixated on those was when I was at my angriest and most withdrawn
What it made me feel was just hopeless when it comes to people, it emphasized more a problem of relating




> Trust isn't something I consciously think about. It's just where my thoughts led me on that particular point. In the moment I feel like it's completely natural but of course once I start dissecting my behaviour and motivations I feel like everything's quite calculated, as I can usually trace them to stuff that's happened in my past.


Oh ok. I like to call those observations. I also don't like to think of myself as calculated, tho...I think everyone if they looked at these things more subconscious they'd find drives like that




> Yeah that's really hard. I wish I was more of an expert on it, but I really just try to understand it all for my own ends.
> 
> I like systems insofar as they give me words to use to describe things that I otherwise might struggle to pinpoint. I think they can be limiting if people let them be, but I prefer to see them as guidelines or frameworks. I take what's useful to me and don't worry about the rest.


What do you mean only for your own ends? Just for the sake of higher goals, or actions, or what? 

I'd say by nature I'm not necessarily inclined to stick to them. I'm not good with rules, regulations, restrictions and that's what they feel to me. I definitely love exploring them to find those little new ways to look at things or new things to think about, so they're not completely useless. It's just one way of looking at things and it's still inherently human which means it's just as subjective and flawed as anything else 



> I like the idea of finding somewhere which feels like home and that I choose to settle down in. But even then I'd have to travel a lot. I get too bored otherwise. Too much I want to see.


What would the home possibly provide to you? I'm curious

I'm also curious, in what ways did you relate to 5 that led you to thinking you could have a 5 fix before getting to 7 and what ultimately led you to 7?
I might try on 4w5 7w8 9w1 for now. I really don't think I'm a 4w3 with a 7w8 and I might not understand wing influence enough. Maybe what I relate to in 5 is just from w5


----------



## HellCat

I have been reading a french parenting book and it mentions how American parents are the most worst case scenario and neurotic thinking. The news is such an atrocity I could barely stand to read it when I lived there. Wars whitewashed and lied about but histrionic headlines of children being kidnapped every 2 seconds and a budding jack the ripper every ten. We are trained to be hypervigilant from elementary school, especially those in larger cities on the coasts. 

I think if that is true of six being the most common type. It is more cultural to be trained as a "six" and with America being so large they are likely contributing a majority of the Sixes. There really isn't a way to break them down by country/culture in order to get a more organic and accurate picture of the distribution of types.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

I feel like most of my identity is based off of early experiences of not feeling good enough, or accepted for who I am.

Even my avatar, is a character from a video-game, who was a totally damaged social-reject, who was part human, part creature. The damaged thing is always there for some reason, it never really leaves me.

It's really hard for me to get over that, I don't know why.


----------



## Kisshoten

CloudySkies said:


> I feel like most of my identity is based off of early experiences of not feeling good enough, or accepted for who I am.
> 
> Even my avatar, is a character from a video-game, who was a totally damaged social-reject, who was part human, part creature. The damaged thing is always there for some reason, it never really leaves me.
> 
> It's really hard for me to get over that, I don't know why.


heh. its not just you. I have a hard time forgetting the past, the nasty past. Good things are long forgotten. Ironic, isn't it.

Anyway, wrt type... I don't have a good reason why, but you don't feel like a 4 to me. What you wrote in your previous response about wanting to avoid yourself when you feel low seemed more 9 than 2. 

A 2 is not out to help people because of altruism. It is a need to be needed because it fuels their fallacy, their pride. "They can't do anything without me," is something I would imagine a 2 would say over and over, and with a smile on their face. xD
it's their... indispensability that forms the basis of their pride. 

The way you described yourself seemed akin to 9's self-forgetting. You want to forget, in a way, all the stuff about your life and about you and just be blissfully ignorant, even if it is for a little while. To just experience tranquility or unmoving stability. 

Right now, I definitely think you ought to read more on 3. Not just from Riso-Hudson. There is more to 3 than the cutthroat, control-freak, CEO of a major multinational co.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Vergil said:


> heh. its not just you. I have a hard time forgetting the past, the nasty past. Good things are long forgotten. Ironic, isn't it.
> 
> Anyway, wrt type... I don't have a good reason why, but you don't feel like a 4 to me. What you wrote in your previous response about wanting to avoid yourself when you feel low seemed more 9 than 2.
> 
> A 2 is not out to help people because of altruism. It is a need to be needed because it fuels their fallacy, their pride. "They can't do anything without me," is something I would imagine a 2 would say over and over, and with a smile on their face. xD
> it's their... indispensability that forms the basis of their pride.
> 
> The way you described yourself seemed akin to 9's self-forgetting. You want to forget, in a way, all the stuff about your life and about you and just be blissfully ignorant, even if it is for a little while. To just experience tranquility or unmoving stability.
> 
> Right now, I definitely think you ought to read more on 3. Not just from Riso-Hudson. There is more to 3 than the cutthroat, control-freak, CEO of a major multinational co.


Even being so 'emotionally' expressive? I love music, and playing music, because it allows me to constantly be expressing my feelings. It feels natural, and second-nature to me. Oh, and I hate consumerism.

I will do that, though. 


I'm guessing you don't think I'm an INFP as well, do you?


----------



## Kisshoten

CloudySkies said:


> Even being so 'emotionally' expressive? I love music, and playing music, because it allows me to constantly be expressing my feelings. It feels natural, and second-nature to me.
> 
> I will do that, though.
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you don't think I'm an INFP as well, do you?


No opinion on the MBTI typing. I'm not very good at picking up functions.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

What about successful types that aren't 3's? what do they look like? I imagine most people who value, or have become successful at something, have gotten their because of working hard. I imagine they probably have some stereotypical 3 traits as well.

There are lots of successful people who are either mistyped, or successful non-3's


----------



## Darkbloom

God,I just need to say this in those exact words: Stop being stuck on 4,you are not a 4


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Living dead said:


> God,I just need to say this in those exact words: Stop being stuck on 4,you are not a 4


Stop being stuck on me being stuck.

I'm only curious....


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Haha, I really like and relate to this song a lot:

"THEY SAID, YOU'LL NEVER, BE GOOD, E-NOUUUGHHHH!!!1"

"ALL-THEY TOLD ME-WAS- JUST-GIVE-UP!!1---BLARGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH PUSHING AND PUSHING----------BLLLARRGGHHH"







MY BODIES HIT THE FLOOR----BLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
YOU'LL NEVER BE. GOOD. E-NOUUUUGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ah, yes. I love that song.

caviar? campaign? Oh yes, oh come contrar, you really shouldn't have. I must say, I am in dubiously delighted.


----------



## EndsOfTheEarth

CloudySkies said:


> Of course,
> I'm aware that the disintegration and integration points for the 4 are 1&2; so I'm guessing you want to know if I feel I move towards those in times of stress? Well, when I first discovered the enneagram and tested as a 4, I worked on trying to reach higher levels, and thus I believe became more objective, which I think has become extremely beneficial for me. I realized I had been doing that my whole life without realizing it. I relate to 1's in a sense of always wanting to do the "right thing" and of wishing yourself and everything else could be "perfect" at all times, yet I do not hold myself to that as I know it's not a reality.
> 
> When I took a tri-type test, the first number was a 1, but I can't remember the rest.


I initially typed as 4 and still do on many tests as the first suggested type. Type 5 is always down the list. But I'm not a type 4 because of how I handle stress. I tend to get hyper when stressed, keep trying to push through and do more until I end up in a heap. When I do end up in a heap the big theme of that particular breakdown is always how I can't handle life, don't know how to deal with the world, where I'm incompetent and then trying to cover that up as if it's the world's worst sin out there. I'm ashamed of how little facility I have for many aspects of life and my reaction to that is to reduce my life down in simplicity until I feel as if I can deal with it. I get very resentful when I am forced to deal with an issue in which I feel I am lacking the skills to handle it. This is how I know I'm a 5. 

You can't get type based on action. It has to come from motivation, what's the underlying reason why you do the things you do? That's the important part. I also tend to believe that no-one else can really type you except you. You have to come to that natural conclusion about yourself and feel right with what you know.


----------



## aurly

CloudySkies said:


> I don't know if I always pity myself so much, as I just feel angry at my circumstances quite often, coming from a broken home, pisses me off sometimes.
> I don't think I've ever wanted to be "unique" so much as I think I just always have been. I don't think I care about "fixing" myself anymore as much because of the enneagram and the MBTI, so I feel more okay with who i am a person, but still struggle with that every now and again.


This is actually 4 - the most misunderstood bit of the type. A type 4 does not _want_ to be unique. Most do in fact want nothing more than to be normal since they experience the uniqueness as a defect.

And after seeing more of your posts, I think you may be a core 4 after all. Likely a 4w3.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

aurly said:


> This is actually 4 - the most misunderstood bit of the type. A type 4 does not _want_ to be unique. Most do in fact want nothing more than to be normal since they experience the uniqueness as a defect.
> 
> And after seeing more of your posts, I think you may be a core 4 after all. Likely a 4w3.


Well, I don't know. _Everyone_ has their own opinions on how each type is, or something. Personally, I sort of feel resentment and hatred towards 3's, like I spent my whole life seeing them hoisted as the model to be, the role that one should aspire to be, and yet never being able to attain that, which turned into hatred. I look at all of the supposed celebrity type 3's and they irk me. 

They just seem so fake, and too polished for me. I look at how much they pander and cater themselves to social expectations and I scoff at them. Yuck----I want nothing to do with that. 

I'm kinda anti-establishment, and I love punk rock music. How many 3's go out on a whim and love punk rock music? have any sort of 'in-your-face' attitude, like that? being too much of a 3, is like my worst nightmare. I'll never be a clean-cut, shirt and tie type of person.

I still think I could have a 5-wing still, just with a strong work-ethic; or perhaps a 3-wing. 

But that's the thing, I'm always in conflict with myself.

I want to be 'successful' to an extent, just not at the expense of my own humanity. I never want to hide all my real or true intentions behind a smiling mask.


--------That's where a lot of my pain comes from, because I was never "good enough" 
not because I ever wanted to be "different" or "weird" 

It's kind of like Marilyn Manson, and how this song/video represents it:


----------



## Blindspots

CloudySkies said:


> Even being so 'emotionally' expressive? I love music, and playing music, because it allows me to constantly be expressing my feelings. It feels natural, and second-nature to me. Oh, and I hate consumerism.
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you don't think I'm an INFP as well, do you?


Being emotionally expressive, whether through music or something else, isn't exclusive to either 4 or INFP. Keeping in any emotion isn't healthy for any type. The reason you express the emotion, and the way you process the emotion have more bearing on typing.




> What about successful types that aren't 3's? what do they look like? I imagine most people who value, or have become successful at something, have gotten their because of working hard. I imagine they probably have some stereotypical 3 traits as well.
> 
> There are lots of successful people who are either mistyped, or successful non-3's


It would also help to frame your own impressions of your type in this way ^^ weed out what could be superficial or stereotypical.



> I relate to 1's in a sense of always wanting to do the "right thing" and of wishing yourself and everything else could be "perfect" at all times, yet I do not hold myself to that as I know it's not a reality.


Reflects one of the virtues of type 1: serenity towards this they cannot change. Health levels also need to be factored in; the healthier, the less dependent they are with their basic passions, i.e. perfection in the case of 1s.

Something I'd like to highlight:


InSolitude said:


> You can't get type based on action. It has to come from motivation, what's the underlying reason why you do the things you do? That's the important part. I also tend to believe that no-one else can really type you except you. You have to come to that natural conclusion about yourself and feel right with what you know.


I mean no malice aimed particularly at you. This are just things I'd like to tell everyone interested in finding their types.



Your last post shows frustration in an enneagram sense. Frustration with not fulfilling yourself, as in 1s, and with not being able to express your authentic self, in the case of 4s. I think those two could be easily parts of your tritype.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Yeah, but being "emotionally-expressive" is always used as a defining factor for ennea-type 4's

I've been insulting called emo many times, as well as being told that I "am emotion"

So..I don't know. You could generalize any characteristic or trait, and then you wouldn't have specific personality types or the enneagram, would you? we all have defining personality traits, that aren't necessarily unique in and of itself. "This is just the way things are"

Yes...the earth is round. Hello, Star-Sailor.


----------



## Blindspots

CloudySkies said:


> Yeah, but being "emotionally-expressive" is always used as a defining factor for ennea-type 4's
> 
> I've been insulting called emo many times, as well as being told that I "am emotion"
> 
> So..I don't know. You could generalize any characteristic or trait, and then you wouldn't have specific personality types or the enneagram, would you? we all have defining personality traits, that aren't necessarily unique in and of itself. "This is just the way things are"
> 
> Yes...the earth is round. Hello, Star-Sailor.


Enneagram types are in the first place based on motivations, including fears and desires. These motivations are what lead to the traits, manifestations of the motivations/cognitive functions/mental processes, which people end up attributing to the types based on experience.

The fixation on traits is still there. Your approach has to go beyond basing your type on traits, or else we'd just be tallying traits and seeing which type has the largest sum, which is what the enneagram tests have been doing all this time.

This is not to say that your type absolutely isn't 4. What I want to emphasize is that the process of inquiry towards the answer counts as well.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Thymic said:


> Enneagram types are in the first place based on motivations, including fears and desires. These motivations are what lead to the traits, manifestations of the motivations/cognitive functions/mental processes, which people end up attributing to the types based on experience.
> 
> The fixation on traits is still there. Your approach has to go beyond basing your type on traits, or else we'd just be tallying traits and seeing which type has the largest sum, which is what the enneagram tests have been doing all this time.
> 
> This is not to say that your type absolutely isn't 4. What I want to emphasize is that the process of inquiry towards the answer counts as well.


Yes, and that's what I've been trying to get at this whole time. I find that my biggest motivations are probably, to express myself(almost not a desire, a weird compulsion I can't control) and find that my desire to be 'unique' and 'authentic' is stronger then any desire to be successful. WHICH, to be honest, seems to be getting completely disregarded here; as if, I don't know what the-f, I'm talking about. Please, kindly back the hell up. 

Either way, I'm not entirely claiming to be either type.

The enneagram is not fact, or some universal law, so I don't really wholly care that much what it deems as being of more value to myself, before I get to decide what is true or of value to myself.
_
GOOD-DAY, SIR!_


----------



## Blindspots

CloudySkies said:


> Yes, and that's what I've been trying to get at this whole time. I find that my biggest motivations are probably, to express myself(almost not a desire, a weird compulsion I can't control) and find that my desire to be 'unique' and 'authentic' is stronger then any desire to be successful. WHICH, to be honest, seems to be getting completely disregarded here
> 
> Either way, I'm not entirely claiming to be either type.
> 
> The enneagram is not fact, or some universal law, so I don't really wholly care that much what it deems as being of more value to myself, before I get to decide what is true or of value to myself.
> _
> GOOD-DAY, SIR!_


Sorry about that, then. I shouldn't have butted in without acknowledging fully what you posted previously. I got carried away in this case.

Good day as well.


----------



## Animal

aurly said:


> This is actually 4 - the most misunderstood bit of the type. A type 4 does not _want_ to be unique. Most do in fact want nothing more than to be normal since they experience the uniqueness as a defect.
> 
> And after seeing more of your posts, I think you may be a core 4 after all. Likely a 4w3.


So glad more people are starting to post about this. 4s do not WANT to be unique- they just feel they ARE, and that causes a disconnect from everyone else and is isolating. The whole "4s want to be unique" bullshit contributed heavily to me mistyping in the past. Because I am _clearly_ "unique" and it is_ painful _that I can't , for instance, be loved in a relationship. I actually seek commonality and think about what makes me human. And I light up with warmth when I feel like someone really empathizes and understands me, relates to me, rather than just 'admires me for being so different.' That said, if someone _doesn't_ see that I march to my own drum, I'd wonder if they understood me at all, because it is beyond obvious.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Thymic said:


> Sorry about that, then. I shouldn't have butted in without acknowledging fully what you posted previously. I got carried away in this case.
> 
> Good day as well.


Well no, it's not really your fault, it's just that I felt whenever I present what I felt were at least, equally strong motivations for who I am, or what I'm like, they were continually getting generalized and disregarded; but of course only the four type characteristics, which make me think that there's some kind of weird bias going around. I am sensing some resent in regards to four's claim to authenticity and individuality, as if even CLAIMING such things are wrong. Um...gee, I think your Fe is showing?

How can I be a three? if I were to ever see a celebrity 3 in person instead of running up to them and asking for their autograph, I'd probably throw a rotten tuna sandwich at them. I like, am entirely repulsed by them. Even some 4w3's kind of put me off, so I'm still not sure what my wing is for certain.

This has helped me understand myself better though, just a little irked.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I'm also skeptical that 4s have no need for acceptance. I know 4 is about being seen for who they are rather than having to adapt to expectations in order to be accepted, but I think they still want for that real self to be accepted.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Nonsense said:


> I'm also skeptical that 4s have no need for acceptance. I know 4 is about being seen for who they are rather than having to adapt to expectations in order to be accepted, but I think they still want for that real self to be accepted.


Well, isn't that what their whole ego is based around and is started by, in a sense?

They're not accepted for who they are, thus they spent their life looking for a persona that will bring the acceptance they long and craved for, and were supposedly not given as children. 

"Attention tends toward something special that is missing or unavailable. Fours frequently report childhood experiences of loss and/or abandonment.'

" They are known as the Image types because they are concerned with how they look to other people, in order to get love and approval. 

In the childhood of the Four, there was some kind of abandonment by a care-giving figure, even if it was not done intentionally. The child loses the person they are closest to, and they long for that person to come back. Their focus becomes glued to the horizon, in the future, hoping for their return. They look critically at themselves, wondering if there was something wrong with them that caused the loved one to leave. Emotionally they are grieving for what is lost, and they envy those around them who have their loved ones."

That's why I'm like this, it sucks. I became obsessed with proving to the world that I was "good enough" or "special" enough, so that, I would be able to attract love and acceptance. But I've never been able to get over my early life abandonment, or the sense of never being good for anybody, or good enough to even have friends...because I was "weird" 

Misfit for life.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

@o0india0o

Actually, it sort of feels like being one of the characters in Mulholland Drive, to be exact. 

This scene:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

o0india0o said:


> Well, I'll keep an open mind. Thanks for putting it on my radar!
> You were the first person to tell me that the emperor was not wearing any clothes when it came to my SP-dom typing (got that switched) - - so perhaps you're onto something here.
> 
> I think I'm going to eventually create a forum to figure out my heart-fix next though. While I feel somewhat confident about my gut-fix, I feel completely in the dark about the heart part. I never read much about Type 2, Type 3, or Type 4, because I never related much to them. Type 3 is probably the most foreign for me.


a 4 fix sounds about right. you don't come across as egotistical enough to be a 2 fixed 7


----------



## Doll

CloudySkies said:


> I think I must have had 3-type characteristics as well, when I was younger, but they just never fully emerged until I was a little older. Even when I was growing up, though, I know remember clearly displaying 3 traits just as much as, 4 or 5 one's.


I could say the same. My 3-wing never really reared its (often ugly) head until I was in high school. Prior to that point, I was very introverted, sullen but imaginative child. I could literally entertain myself for hours. It wasn't until I was in high school that my competitive side emerged and I began to open up in an environment where I felt more accepted. As an adult, I can clearly see my 3-wing and I'm much more extroverted and confident than I used to be. But I experience 5 influence as well; I think the variation is just... different... but I do believe that every type experiences both wings, and one is simply dominant over the other.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Doll said:


> I could say the same. My 3-wing never really reared its (often ugly) head until I was in high school. Prior to that point, I was very introverted, sullen but imaginative child. I could literally entertain myself for hours. It wasn't until I was in high school that my competitive side emerged and I began to open up in an environment where I felt more accepted. As an adult, I can clearly see my 3-wing and I'm much more extroverted and confident than I used to be. But I experience 5 influence as well; I think the variation is just... different... but I do believe that every type experiences both wings, and one is simply dominant over the other.


Yay, somebody who understands! 

How do you think that manifests in an introvert, though? I like that idea, as if there are two separate entities floating beneath a murky surface waiting to re-emerge at anytime. I know I started to take myself more seriously, as well as responsibilities at around that period, but I'm not sure. I was never that successful at it, partially because I had no sense of self-worth.

but then lately, I simply just feel like I'm just an alien at this point in time, that doesn't really relate to anything. I'm just warping, and shifting, in and out of time, through alternate dimensions. Time periods, never really sure where I'm going to end up.

Oh, hello there, Sir. I have gone through the motions, to these intervals of human social interactions and pre-defined expectations. Ker-bllaaah.


Phaaasing-in and out of-space

Forever lost, in the space-time continum
like Fido without a bone

Space is not the final frontier; but something much less climatic.


----------



## Doll

CloudySkies said:


> Yay, somebody who understands!


<3! 



> How do you think that manifests in an introvert, though? I like that idea, as if there are two separate entities floating beneath a murky surface waiting to re-emerge at anytime. I know I started to take myself more seriously, as well as responsibilities at around that period, but I'm not sure. I was never that successful at it, partially because I had no sense of self-worth.


Are you unsure of your wing? I think competency can be confused, because in 4s it can manifest in so many different ways. Wings (both 3 and 5) as well as 1, which is our DOI. Instincts can also be at play, here. I'm terrible with responsibilities. I'm just all around bad at them - and it is that issue of self-worth (for me, also compounded by boredom/laziness/desire to do "more important" things). However, I'm also sp-last. My wing 3 doesn't really emerge with responsibility, it makes itself known in other ways; mainly, the desire to be seen, noticed and successful. I don't really go about this in practical ways. When I'm healthy is when I feel more "put together", but I think that's the line to 1. 

I hope that makes sense!


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Doll said:


> <3!
> 
> 
> 
> Are you unsure of your wing? I think competency can be confused, because in 4s it can manifest in so many different ways. Wings (both 3 and 5) as well as 1, which is our DOI. Instincts can also be at play, here. I'm terrible with responsibilities. I'm just all around bad at them - and it is that issue of self-worth (for me, also compounded by boredom/laziness/desire to do "more important" things). However, I'm also sp-last. My wing 3 doesn't really emerge with responsibility, it makes itself known in other ways; mainly, the desire to be seen, noticed and successful. I don't really go about this in practical ways. When I'm healthy is when I feel more "put together", but I think that's the line to 1.
> 
> I hope that makes sense!


Oh, yeah, I suppose I'm sort of confused how it all fits together, but being aware of the conflicts in my enneagram and type just make me feel more aware/conflicted with all the conflict in my self, that I more or less sort of half be-grudgingly ignored up until now. 

As I've studied the enneagram; predominately the 4 type, as I felt the other wings weren't that relevant, as I honestly, couldn't figure out what one fit way back when I first discovered it either. 

I just have so many conflicting desires inside at me all at once, it's just really confusing more then anything, and I feel like deep down, I sort of want to hide in a corner and drown in tears, more then anything...

I think my instincts really bring with them lots of frustrations too, and almost at times make me wonder if I'm actually an extrovert or something, because I can seem so ambiverted at times, and have always have been that way. I suppose it doesn't matter, but I feel at times like every molecule in my body is twisting and pulling me apart like magnets, and it's frightening, and frustrating. 

It makes me feel like I have less, and less of a identity, but I suppose you sort of have to just embrace that. 

I am just...contradictions.

Actually I'm starting to wonder if it all just comes back to my fear of death, I forget how scared I am to die sometimes. Eurgh, frustrations!

Okay, I just wanted to say I lost my train of thought with some of this post as I am multi-tasking.


----------



## Doll

CloudySkies said:


> I just have so many conflicting desires inside at me all at once, it's just really confusing more then anything, and I feel like deep down, I sort of want to hide in a corner and drown in tears, more then anything...


I know what feeling you're describing. What sort of things/situations leave you conflicted?



> I think my instincts really bring with them lots of frustrations too, and almost at times make me wonder if I'm actually an extrovert or something, because I can seem so ambiverted at times, and have always have been that way. I suppose it doesn't matter, but I feel at times like every molecule in my body is twisting and pulling me apart like magnets, and it's frightening, and frustrating.
> 
> It makes me feel like I have less, and less of a identity, but I suppose you sort of have to just embrace that.
> 
> I am just...contradictions.


Ughh. I know what you're saying, because I have the hardest time grasping "who I am", and this has been a source of endless frustration and uncertainty. My own self-descriptions tend to fluctuate depending on how I FEEL, which makes for an ever-shifting identity and it often leaves me shaken. Then I worry about being too insincere or false in my idea of myself, because, in the past, I've been guilty of trying on identities and molds that I see as desirable in others. 

Honestly, I think the issue of identity is a cross most 4s bear, in some form.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Lost control again: 

THIS, THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS, BUT WHAT IT COULD BE,WHICH IS NOTNING

AND YOUR FACE

EDIT


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Lost ocntrol of emotions again. Le' WHAT DO YOU CARE!!?? edit.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

*fuuuuuuUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkDDDerg
gfdkkvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvccccccccccccccccccccccccccceeeeeeeeeeereyooooooothhghn*


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Swordsman of Mana said:


> a 4 fix sounds about right. you don't come across as egotistical enough to be a 2 fixed 7


What does that mean ? 2 fix making 7 more entitled ?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

crashbandicoot said:


> What does that mean ? 2 fix making 7 more entitled ?


2 is a very proud type, prone to feelings of entitlement fueled by this sense of pride


----------



## Darkbloom

@crashbandicoot,no worries,you're entitled enough to be a 2 fixed 7 :kitteh:


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Living dead said:


> @crashbandicoot,no worries,you're entitled enough to be a 2 fixed 7 :kitteh:


So, I have been told. Thx eighty :happy:


----------



## Kisshoten

For all you peeps.


----------



## Darkbloom

crashbandicoot said:


> So, I have been told. Thx eighty :happy:


I'll forgive you, now that you're 7w8 
You're welcome! roud:


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Living dead said:


> I'll forgive you, now that you're 7w8
> You're welcome! roud:


Great  I was crying at nights :crying:

Now I can stop crying :happy:


----------



## Darkbloom

crashbandicoot said:


> Great  I was crying at nights :crying:
> 
> Now I can stop crying :happy:


I know :wink:


----------



## Darkbloom

I think I'm 2w1.
It makes so much more sense than 4w3 or 2w3,and it brings 4 closer to 2,I don't know how no one else sees it (no matter what it seems like I'm nothing like any sort of 3 or 2w3)
sp/sx for instincts
@Swordsman of Mana, you once said I don't give off 2w3 sp/sx vibe,I'm still really curious why and whether this seems any better @Illuminaughty, curious what you think too @Shame Spiral,is it _too_ insane? XD @mimesis, something about core 4 just doesn't feel right,not because I don't want it to,it just feels relatable but not _really_,you know?Could you see this? @alittlebear,just notifying you (btw where are you with your type atm?9w1?)


----------



## Golden Rose

Living dead said:


> I think I'm 2w1.
> It makes so much more sense than 4w3 or 2w3,and it brings 4 closer to 2,I don't know how no one else sees it (no matter what it seems like I'm nothing like any sort of 3 or 2w3)
> sp/sx for instincts
> @Swordsman of Mana, you once said I don't give off 2w3 sp/sx vibe,I'm still really curious why and whether this seems any better @Illuminaughty, curious what you think too @Shame Spiral,is it _too_ insane? XD @mimesis, something about core 4 just doesn't feel right,not because I don't want it to,it just feels relatable but not _really_,you know?Could you see this? @alittlebear,just notifying you (btw where are you with your type atm?9w1?)


First of all, I agree with your typing as ESFP because it suits you well.
You don't seem to have the strong diplomacy of a Fe-dom and you're assertive, spontaneous and outspoken like a Se-dom with a lot of focus on concrete and material pleasures and looking good.

I can see both 2w1 and 2w3 but to me 2w1 are a lot more like "socially oriented and prideful moral warriors" but instead of having their own strong causes and self-punishing/perfectionist fits like core 1s, they seem to be a lot more socially adaptable and calculating. Choosing what benefits them the most from a standpoint of values.

2w3s are sexy and more powerful. They seduce through behavior, attitude, flirtiness, socialite tendencies, charm and often a dominant kind of presence (some can play coy, like sp 2w3s, but you can tell they're in control). Type 3 and type 2 are very similar under many regards but 3s are a lot less emotionally aware, more distant, quieter, more fixated on results and personal achievements while 2s are extremely aware of what they do and very emotionally charged.

I could still see ESFP 2w3 as in "assertive, decisive, charming and going after what she wants".


----------



## Darkbloom

Illuminaughty said:


> First of all, I agree with your typing as ESFP because it suits you well.
> You don't seem to have the strong diplomacy of a Fe-dom and you're assertive, spontaneous and outspoken like a Se-dom with a lot of focus on concrete and material pleasures and looking good.
> 
> I can see both 2w1 and 2w3 but to me 2w1 are a lot more like "socially oriented and prideful moral warriors" but instead of having their own strong causes and self-punishing/perfectionist fits like core 1s, they seem to be a lot more socially adaptable and calculating. Choosing what benefits them the most from a standpoint of values.
> 
> 2w3s are sexy and more powerful. They seduce through behavior, attitude, flirtiness, socialite tendencies, charm and often a dominant kind of presence (some can play coy, like sp 2w3s, but you can tell they're in control). Type 3 and type 2 are very similar under many regards but 3s are a lot less emotionally aware, more distant, quieter, more fixated on results and personal achievements while 2s are extremely aware of what they do and very emotionally charged.
> 
> I could still see ESFP 2w3 as in "assertive, decisive, charming and going after what she wants".


Tbh I never get how people see so much Se in me.I mean,I totally fet it,my previous mbti questionnaire was almost stereotypically filled with it but I just can't think of one instance I was totally spontaneous,or when I just blurted out whatever was on my mind without really thinking,I just don't do things like that.I actually have a (extremely weird) filter for what I'm saying and when I'm being spontaneous it's not really spontaneous,or it is spontaneous compared to an extreme Si dom (I happen to be around lots of those)
Not sure what to make of it,I mean is anyone ever _really_ spontaneous?

I think I generally fit w3 more but,idk how to say this without insulting 2w3 or core 3 but I really feel a bit deeper than that XD
Just being here feels a bit anti-3 and 2w3 to me but I could be wrong(and I'd actually like to be wrong).
What do you think?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Living dead you're needed on my topic. 4 is being considered for me.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> @Living dead you're needed on my topic. 4 is being considered for me.


Whaaaaat???????


omg that topic,can't leave it for one afternoon lol
Coming now!


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

I don't care how many times I've posted in this thread:

How does one differentiate between a Four and a Three fix?


----------



## DomNapoleon

I've decided to type as 7w8. Ye who disagrees speak now or shut up forever


----------



## Paradigm

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> How does one differentiate between a Four and a Three fix?


3-fixers have more assertiveness and focus. They usually have a drive to be "the best" at something, usually a specific something, though what "the best" is can be very subjective. (I use "be the best" over "be successful," since I find it more accurate.) They can be sensitive and insightful, but rarely show it -- and to some this is even part of what "being the best" can encompass! More socially flexible. They can "bowl over" others, oftentimes while well-intentioned, but not always realize doing so or why it's annoying. In spite of their charm, they can easily be misanthropic or shy, which leads some to think they're "introverted" (to use their word).
Subjectively speaking as a 6, there's more of a sense of "acting" that 4-fixers often lack (but not always, especially 4w3s); they're less genuine-feeling.
(Also this may have a 3w2 bent to it, as most 3s I know are 3w2s. Reading it over, I see similarities in types 2, 7, and 8.)

4-fixers are more scattered, and can fall into a pattern of victimizing themselves more. More likely to show how sensitive and insightful they can be. More likely to pursue solo activities or smaller groups, though not necessarily introverted or insular. They "drop off the radar" for no reason more often than 3s -- a 3 will usually have a reason, even if it is one you don't like and/or they won't tell you. They're more vocal, directly or indirectly, about their - perceived - authenticity. 4w3s especially can contradict themselves a lot, enough to rival 6s. They don't really have a drive to be "the best," though they _can_ be determined if they're passionate; for them, it's more the... satisfaction of completion than it is being successful.

These are all my observations, so feel free to disagree, anyone xD


----------



## FakeLefty

Paradigm said:


> 3-fixers have more assertiveness and focus. They usually have a drive to be "the best" at something, usually a specific something, though what "the best" is can be very subjective. (I use "be the best" over "be successful," since I find it more accurate.) They can be sensitive and insightful, but rarely show it -- and to some this is even part of what "being the best" can encompass! More socially flexible. They can "bowl over" others, oftentimes while well-intentioned, but not always realize doing so or why it's annoying. In spite of their charm, they can easily be misanthropic or shy, which leads some to think they're "introverted" (to use their word).
> Subjectively speaking as a 6, there's more of a sense of "acting" that 4-fixers often lack (but not always, especially 4w3s); they're less genuine-feeling.
> (Also this may have a 3w2 bent to it, as most 3s I know are 3w2s. Reading it over, I see similarities in types 2, 7, and 8.)
> 
> 4-fixers are more scattered, and can fall into a pattern of victimizing themselves more. More likely to show how sensitive and insightful they can be. More likely to pursue solo activities or smaller groups, though not necessarily introverted or insular. They "drop off the radar" for no reason more often than 3s -- a 3 will usually have a reason, even if it is one you don't like and/or they won't tell you. They're more vocal, directly or indirectly, about their - perceived - authenticity. 4w3s especially can contradict themselves a lot, enough to rival 6s. They don't really have a drive to be "the best," though they _can_ be determined if they're passionate; for them, it's more the... satisfaction of completion than it is being successful.
> 
> These are all my observations, so feel free to disagree, anyone xD


I think a 3w4 will have a bit of 4-ness due to the wing, but they are still primarily driven by their ambitions. 3's in general aren't AS focused about their personal authenticity. They are more driven towards success and it is their primary focus. While 4's can be ambitious, success isn't necessarily their primary focus.

Even as a 3, I can't say that I am a focused individual- I can be very scattered and distractable, but that may be just due to my 7 fix. Nonetheless, I still am very ambitious and succeeding and competency are my main focuses in life. 

Disclaimer: I do not claim to be an enneagram expert. But this is just based on what little I've read and a bit of personal experience.


----------



## Paradigm

FakeLefty said:


> Even as a 3, I can't say that I am a focused individual- I can be very scattered and distractable, but that may be just due to my 7 fix.


Yeah, there's always exceptions, and nothing is a rule. I tend to believe no one can be 100% a type, it's more about which percentage is higher. (For a simplified example, if you relate 60% to type 1 but 50% to type 2, then you're likely a type 1 -- misunderstandings about types/self aside.)

And self-perception can be very different from what others perceive, as I touched on with the 3s I know thinking they're introverted* (I shudder to think what they would self-type as). So in this case: A person may not feel they are focused, but appear focused to outsiders.

Then there's always the 3s who have no idea what they want yet, while a 4 could have discovered it already -- obviously one who has determination will appear more focused than one who doesn't. It's all about context.


*To be fair, one _could_ be, but the others aren't.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

I've been told by psychciatisct that I lean towards "obsessive personality". Not the disordered kind, he said my neurotsicm is pretty low. Just another word for rule-abiding person with issues about controlling other/power over others, I guess. Still, it made me wonder if i should type at "healthy 1 integrating to 7". However, I dont think I've ever disintegrated to 4 or ever recalled sth along that lines. Disintegrating to 1 makes more sense.

I knew I had issues with power and control since like the day 1. I always had sadistic fantasies about brutally torturing people for some good reason. 

lol I even had pooping issues as a kid  the anal retentive kind.


> They will form into an adult who hates mess, is obsessively tidy, punctual, and respectful to authority. These adults can sometimes be stubborn and be very careful over their money.


still I'm not like that ^^

Still if I'm 1 core, I'm probably the most trolly, relaxed and the least self-critical 1. In fact, I'm quick to blame others, the possibilty that I *might* be wrong doesnt really register unless there is no other option.

I'm sure about my tritype, btw - 127, just wondering if 1 first then 7 head fix or 7 core with 1 fix. Sp/So for sure.


----------



## galactic collision

Beep boop beep: your opportunity to watch me search for the right thing to say and end up using "like" as a filler word for 17.5 minutes #nofilter


----------



## o0india0o

Paradigm said:


> 3-fixers have more assertiveness and focus. They usually have a drive to be "the best" at something, usually a specific something, though what "the best" is can be very subjective. (I use "be the best" over "be successful," since I find it more accurate.) They can be sensitive and insightful, but rarely show it -- and to some this is even part of what "being the best" can encompass! More socially flexible. They can "bowl over" others, oftentimes while well-intentioned, but not always realize doing so or why it's annoying. In spite of their charm, they can easily be misanthropic or shy, which leads some to think they're "introverted" (to use their word).
> Subjectively speaking as a 6, there's more of a sense of "acting" that 4-fixers often lack (but not always, especially 4w3s); they're less genuine-feeling.
> (Also this may have a 3w2 bent to it, as most 3s I know are 3w2s. Reading it over, I see similarities in types 2, 7, and 8.)
> 
> 4-fixers are more scattered, and can fall into a pattern of victimizing themselves more. More likely to show how sensitive and insightful they can be. More likely to pursue solo activities or smaller groups, though not necessarily introverted or insular. They "drop off the radar" for no reason more often than 3s -- a 3 will usually have a reason, even if it is one you don't like and/or they won't tell you. They're more vocal, directly or indirectly, about their - perceived - authenticity. 4w3s especially can contradict themselves a lot, enough to rival 6s. They don't really have a drive to be "the best," though they _can_ be determined if they're passionate; for them, it's more the... satisfaction of completion than it is being successful.
> 
> These are all my observations, so feel free to disagree, anyone xD


I thought this was _really_ well done! 
I appreciated reading it. 

I am having some trouble with figuring out my heart-fix. 
If you wouldn't mind, could you write a similar little blurb about Type 4 and Type 2? :joyous:


----------



## o0india0o

Living dead said:


> […]I mean is anyone ever _really_ spontaneous?


I know I am! I frequently have to edit, delete, and retype what I write on PerC - - because I am _too_ "spontaneous", and end up being like: "Ah. I shouldn't of said that. Remove that. Wait. Crap."



> I think I generally fit w3 more but,idk how to say this without insulting 2w3 or core 3 but I really feel a bit deeper than that XD
> Just being here feels a bit anti-3 and 2w3 to me but I could be wrong(and I'd actually like to be wrong).
> What do you think?


You seem more like a 3-winger to me. But I understand what you mean about the deep part.


----------



## Darkbloom

o0india0o said:


> I know I am! I frequently have to edit, delete, and retype what I write on PerC - - because I am _too_ "spontaneous", and end up being like: "Ah. I shouldn't of said that. Remove that. Wait. Crap."
> 
> 
> 
> You seem more like a 3-winger to me. But I understand what you mean about the deep part.


Well,I can be a bit like that too,like,impulsive at that one moment but not with big things.I'm generally very tertiary Se though,I'd say,although today I discovered some of my Ni seems inferior Ni 

Yeah,I understand what you mean :laughing:
But 4 is what happens to me when feeling really,really bad so I though 1 wing might make sense but who knows,it could be 2's 4 too


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I feel way too at-peace with being a 9. This concerns me.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I feel way too at-peace with being a 9. This concerns me.


Any new thoughts regarding your type?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Any new thoughts regarding your type?


I like 9. I think 972 is me. The only thing is that I feel I am too openly passionate to be a 9, too drawn into sympathies, too extremist once I get my thoughts sorted out on an issue... but I suppose this could be the result of Fe/Ni and 9 mixing.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I like 9. I think 972 is me. The only thing is that I feel I am too openly passionate to be a 9, too drawn into sympathies, too extremist once I get my thoughts sorted out on an issue... but I suppose this could be the result of Fe/Ni and 9 mixing.


I agree, but I'm still feeling 9
But I also still keep it as a possibility for my type XD


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Living dead said:


> I agree, but I'm still feeling 9
> But I also still keep it as a possibility for my type XD


Ofc you'd keep 9. 

But deep down, you know you just want someone to tell you how not 9 you are :3

You're 2-core. :dispirited:

Someone tell me if my wing is 8 or 6 ! :cheers2:


----------



## Darkbloom

crashbandicoot said:


> Ofc you'd keep 9.
> 
> But deep down, you know you just want someone to tell you how not 9 you are :3
> 
> You're 2-core. :dispirited:
> 
> Someone tell me if my wing is 8 or 6 ! :cheers2:


But I stopped a conflict recently,didn't you read my message???
I do it all the time,really roud:

I wanna know too :indecisiveness:
Edit: I could be biased against 7w8 because of some here,maybe 
Edit 2: Nah,changed my mind,8 is not the problem


----------



## Paradigm

o0india0o said:


> I thought this was _really_ well done!
> I appreciated reading it.
> 
> I am having some trouble with figuring out my heart-fix.
> If you wouldn't mind, could you write a similar little blurb about Type 4 and Type 2? :joyous:


Thanks roud: I could maybe write 2v4 in a few days. I have a backlog of things to do, both PerC and non-PerC. 
(Sorry @alittlebear, btw. Will reply asap in other thread.)

FWIW I think you fit a 2w1 fix better than 4w5. You're a _lot _lighter than 7s with 4w5 fixes. No real opinion on influences or changing your gut fix.


----------



## Golden Rose

crashbandicoot said:


> @Illuminaughty
> 
> ^^get off your fucking high horse already. You have tried on almost every possible mbti-enneagram typing yourself and you still call others self-trolling, in denial, going for ego-flattery, etc. LOL
> 
> you are still crying the same old "other people are soo mistyped because descriptions" which you also did at 4 5 7 8 2 and various xNxx combo's you had :apathy:












Who said I wasn't self referencing too? I'm the first one to laugh at my own journey.
If it takes so little for you to get offended, I'd consider investing in a triggers whistle. :crazy:


----------



## Paradigm

Illuminaughty said:


> FP 3s exist and they're amazing  but usually they gravitate more toward 2 (in denial) and 4.


Haha I didn't mean to imply they didn't exist, just that I'd guess core 3 is less common in FPs than _all _other MB types. I have no doubt they're amazing 



> I love messing with typology, the more you deconstruct it, the more you find!


Yeah, me too; it's fun to talk about how both systems interact and how type interacts with human nature. You seem to have a good grasp on it! Sounds like you have a handle on not taking any of it too overboard and don't insist on stereotypes. 

Did you happen to change your username recently? I don't recognize it (but I'm too in my head most of the time, sorry).


----------



## Golden Rose

Paradigm said:


> Haha I didn't mean to imply they didn't exist, just that I'd guess core 3 is less common in FPs than _all _other MB types. I have no doubt they're amazing


I agree that it's a lot less common! Makes them even more interesting. 
Type 3 is under reported due to a 3's natural identification with their desired type.
Not sure what the ruckus was all about but salty people are hilarious to watch.



> Yeah, me too; it's fun to talk about how both systems interact and how type interacts with human nature. You seem to have a good grasp on it! Sounds like you have a handle on not taking any of it too overboard and don't insist on stereotypes.


I love breaking down systems and see how they can rearranged together into something that works.
This is why I like tritype, instincts and all the side theories, more to play with!



> Did you happen to change your username recently? I don't recognize it (but I'm too in my head most of the time, sorry).


Hotaru/Shamy were the most recent two.


----------



## Paradigm

Illuminaughty said:


> Type 3 is under reported due to a 3's natural identification with their desired type.
> I love breaking down systems and see how they can rearranged together into something that works.
> This is why I like tritype, instincts and all the side theories, more to play with!


Yeah, but nearly every type -- person -- falls into that trap. Usually, if it's not due to a misunderstanding of the system, it's a misunderstanding of themselves, and often the idea that everything must be attributed to type. Getting people to understand that type isn't even a significant fraction of personality feels impossible sometimes. Typology is stuffing traits into a box, desperately looking at something from all angles to see how it could possibly fit into (often preconceived / biased) definitions. Typology is inherently limiting, really. Sure, the more you add makes the box bigger, but humans are messy.

Not, of course, to say I'm above it all -- the limits of typology can be useful, and you have to work within them to discuss anything worthwhile. But the acknowledgement of them is rare, imo.

(In other news, I'm having severe deja vu here...)



> Hotaru/Shamy were the most recent two.


Ah, of course. _Those _I recognize xD


----------



## Golden Rose

Paradigm said:


> Yeah, but nearly every type -- person -- falls into that trap. Usually, if it's not due to a misunderstanding of the system, it's a misunderstanding of themselves, and often the idea that everything must be attributed to type. Getting people to understand that type isn't even a significant fraction of personality feels impossible sometimes. Typology is stuffing traits into a box, desperately looking at something from all angles to see how it could possibly fit into (often preconceived / biased) definitions. Typology is inherently limiting, really. Sure, the more you add makes the box bigger, but humans are messy.
> 
> Not, of course, to say I'm above it all -- the limits of typology can be useful, and you have to work within them to discuss anything worthwhile. But the acknowledgement of them is rare, imo.


That's pretty much what I was trying to get at.

It's not of a matter of ignorance or any specific case rather than understanding and pinning down your own enneatype or even someone else's is something that builds over time since it's a matter of motivation and not behavior although there's a certain set of traits that can be easily recognized in people of a specific type. Obviously the system can't categorize everything appropriately but that's why there's always new material to look for even when you already have the big picture in mind. Sometimes you take out a brick and it all crumbles down and needs to be rebuilt until you hit jackpot. \0/

Lack of awarness + bad descriptions + need to explore = potential mistypes, especially for image cores.
It's actually something quite basic and that I've ran into myself multiple times so not that big of a deal.

It's just something interesting to play with and for the learning potential.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Now am I mistyped?

4w-motherfucking-3 so/sx motherfuckers.

Bitches can't handle my swagger.

I'll fuck you bitches up.










I might have had too much caffeine. And by that I mean like 2 sodas.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Illuminaughty said:


> Who said I wasn't self referencing too? I'm the first one to laugh at my own journey.
> If it takes so little for you to get offended, I'd consider investing in a triggers whistle. :crazy:


Bitch please. Why would I be offended ? 

I'm saying you are not the one to talk about "true core"s of types and lecturing people on enneagram considering you change them more often than a baby changes diapers.


----------



## Golden Rose

crashbandicoot said:


> Bitch please. Why would I be offended ?
> 
> I'm saying you are not the one to talk about "true core"s of types and lecturing people on enneagram considering you change them more often than a baby changes diapers.


I can post whatever I want.

Free to think anything out of it but you're not the enneagram police and changing types is not a crime until otherwise proven. I even explained what I meant but apparently you're too thick to get it. Animal changed a lot of types too, would you insult her? No? So stop running your trap. Now that you've had your 30 seconds of glory and thanks whoring, go back being an annoying bitch somewhere else.


----------



## Animal

It is definitely possible to have a strong grasp on enneagram without having a firm grasp on what your OWN type is. I can think of one user who taught me a chunk of what I know about enneagram, but only recently came to choose her type. This usually applies to people who are traumatized, chronically ill, mentally ill, have atypical lives, etc. The mind works differently and it is hard to separate type from the illness or trauma. It doesn't mean someone didn't study enneagram or can't grasp the system, but for traumatized folks, grasping how you fit into it is harder.


----------



## BroNerd

I wonder if I'm mistyped.
I feel confident that I have 6, 9, and 3 in my tritype.
A part of me wonders if I'm a 3 rather than a 6 but I think it's reasonable that a 6 with a fairly developed sx instinct would be 3-ish. My passions make me ambitious and willing to rock the boat if I think it would lead to positive results. 

Right now, I'm at 6w7-9w8-3w2. Each type by itself makes sense but I'm kind of a loner and despite being an extrovert, I feel the need to withdraw to maintain my independence and sense of self. Nothing in my Enneagram except for the sp/sx stacking indicates that need.


----------



## BroNerd

I sometimes wonder though if I'm simply a highly anxious 3.
I consider myself a go-getter who thrives on success and recognition.
I live for that stuff. The one thing which does make me lean more to 6 is that I am not all about crafting a perfect image. I'm usually just myself.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Illuminaughty said:


> I can post whatever I want.
> 
> Free to think anything out of it but you're not the enneagram police and changing types is not a crime until otherwise proven. I even explained what I meant but apparently you're too thick to get it. Animal changed a lot of types too, would you insult her? No? So stop running your trap. Now that you've had your 30 seconds of glory and thanks whoring, go back being an annoying bitch somewhere else.


Unfortunately but sure, you are free to post your bullshit around. Yet, giving your personal/subjective experiences being a type then changing your type twice in like .. 2 hours, you are bound to get called on it. Everything that has came from you should be untrusted and taken with a grain salt. You are unreliable.

Funny that you think I'm thank-whoring. Nice little projection. 

I may go elsewhere whenever I want. I actually want to go as soon as your done being retarded or spreading misinformation. Or you can call mods if you want lol.

*this is the part you are putting some stupid gif to mock me*


----------



## Golden Rose

crashbandicoot said:


> Unfortunately but sure, you are free to post your bullshit around. Yet, giving your personal/subjective experiences being a type then changing your type twice in like .. 2 hours, you are bound to get called on it. Everything that has came from you should be untrusted and taken with a grain salt. You are unreliable.
> 
> Funny that you think I'm thank-whoring. Nice little projection.
> 
> I may go elsewhere whenever I want. I actually want to go as soon as your done being retarded or spreading misinformation. Or you can call mods if you want lol.
> 
> *this is the part you are putting some stupid gif to mock me*


Call me out on it as much as you want, no one forces you to read my posts and given by the way I've seen you interact with other women, I guess that this is the only way you can get your little ego validated. I'm unreliable? Big fucking deal, I never claimed to be an expert and if my posts are bullshit then you're free to debate their content ;D but you won't do that because the entire amount of your skills relies on negging people and thinking you're hot shit.

Do you stop anyone who you think is spreading bullshit? Clearly not.
Keep acting like a white knight, you're entertaining if anything.

Like @Animal said, some people take a while to type themselves for whatever reason and yet they can grasp the theory just fine. But you don't care about that, you're too busy trying to act like some kind of expert trying to debunk bullshit when we both know that's not what you're truly going for.

*this is the part where you get clownzoned by the moderators for being such a little brat* ;D
Apparently my stupid gif is still burned in your memory lmao.


----------



## Kintsugi

LOL, this thread never fails to amuse xD

On a more serious note; @Blue Flare, I'm sticking with 1-fix for now. Heart-fix confuses the hell out of me.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Illuminaughty said:


> Call me out on it as much as you want, no one forces you to read my posts and given by the way I've seen you interact with other women, I guess that this is the only way you can get your little ego validated. I'm unreliable? Big fucking deal, I never claimed to be an expert and if my posts are bullshit then you're free to debate their content ;D but you won't do that because the entire amount of your skills relies on negging people and thinking you're hot shit.
> 
> Do you stop anyone who you think is spreading bullshit? Clearly not.
> Keep acting like a white knight, you're entertaining if anything.
> 
> Like @Animal said, some people take a while to type themselves for whatever reason and yet they can grasp the theory just fine. But you don't care about that, you're too busy trying to act like some kind of expert trying to debunk bullshit when we both know that's not what you're truly going for.
> 
> *this is the part where you get clownzoned by the moderators for being such a little brat* ;D
> Apparently my stupid gif is still burned in your memory lmao.


*wow, you exposed me* But I can do whatever I want, dont read if you dont want to. Now go and play "look at me im so st.. Funny and knowledgable" elsewhere. Annoying bitch. Rerreroro. Stupid brat. You are hurt because I owned you before.


----------



## Golden Rose

crashbandicoot said:


> *wow, you exposed me* But I can do whatever I want, dont read if you dont want to. Now go and play "look at me im so st.. Funny and knowledgable" elsewhere. Annoying bitch. Rerreroro. Stupid brat. You are hurt because I owned you before.
> 
> View attachment 342682


I wasn't even paying attention to your existence until you started flailing like an attention starved kid in this thread. And seriously "owned me"? What are you a 12 years old kid on LoL? 
With your debating skills you might as well be one.

Go back to negging Living Dead on her wall, maybe one day someone will give you a pity fuck.
Nice projection by the way, it takes one to know one. I like attention. I'm not sad enough to pretend i don't!

But, by all means keep "owning" me.
Saturday afternoons are always so boring! \0/


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Illuminaughty said:


> I wasn't even paying attention to your existence until you started flailing like an attention starved kid in this thread. And seriously "owned me"? What are you a 12 years old kid on LoL?
> With your debating skills you might as well be one.
> 
> Go back to negging Living Dead on her wall, maybe one day someone will give you a pity fuck.
> Nice projection by the way, it takes one to know one. I like attention. I'm not sad enough to pretend i don't!
> 
> But, by all means keep "owning" me.
> Saturday afternoons are always so boring! \0/


lol, your sarcasm detecting skills are like below zero :3 

Anyway, animal, living dead so far. You can try mentioning people directly to stick up for you. No need for that passive call for help :rolleye::rolleye:


----------



## Golden Rose

crashbandicoot said:


> lol, your sarcasm detecting skills are like below zero :3
> 
> Anyway, animal, living dead so far. You can try mentioning people directly to stick up for you. No need for that passive call for help :rolleye::rolleye:


Lol. Calling out your bullshit is not asking for help.
As you can see I'm handling your ass just fine.

I didn't detect any drop of sarcasm because there was none, just someone still butthurt about some incident he started months ago and insecure enough to start drama just to feel validated. I love how you claimed that your main aim was to expose bullshit and yet you're cluttering up this thread with your own whining and passive aggressiveness.

Are you trying to prove something? All I can see is you keep mentioning that old thread.
You know what? Let it go, dude! :kitteh: You're projecting so hard, I can see your bullshit on silver screen.

Since you're such a knowledgeable person who got it right the first time and clearly doesn't feel threatened by someone making a general statement about his type, go and spread that knowledge!

Dazzle the forums with your superior intellect.

:ball:


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Illuminaughty said:


> Lol. Calling out your bullshit is not asking for help.
> As you can see I'm handling your ass just fine.
> 
> I didn't detect any drop of sarcasm because there was none, just someone still butthurt about some incident he started months ago and insecure enough to start drama just to feel validated. I love how you claimed that your main aim was to expose bullshit and yet you're cluttering up this thread with your own whining and passive aggressiveness.
> 
> Are you trying to prove something? All I can see is you keep mentioning that old thread.
> You know what? Let it go, dude! :kitteh: You're projecting so hard, I can see your bullshit on silver screen.
> 
> Since you're such a knowledgeable person who got it right the first time and clearly doesn't feel threatened by someone making a general statement about his type, go and spread that knowledge!
> 
> Dazzle the forums with your superior intellect.
> 
> :ball:


You turned out be more retarded that I thought. Post 5297 was an illustration of how you come off, I just responded with your style of debating, lol.
All that nonsense assumptions about my motivation and hidden agendas. Trying to involve others and a general distortion. Personal insults. These are what your superior debating involve.


----------



## Golden Rose

crashbandicoot said:


> You turned out be more retarded that I thought. Post 5297 was an illustration of how you come off, I just responded with your style of debating, lol.
> *All that nonsense assumptions about my motivation and hidden agendas*. Trying to involve others and a general distortion. *Personal insults*. These are what your superior debating involve.


Lol, look in a mirror.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

alittlebear said:


> Ah, but I've always been a bunny rabbit? I think I now see myself as more moralistic than I am now. And would a 1 be able to fall away from that characteristic so easily?


Well, I said that because you said you'd been that way in the past. About the morality I mean. Although for the bunny rabbit thing, I don't know. 



> Wouldn't double 1 wing explain my self discipline and superego influence?


Perhaps so. I don't really have that myself, but then I just have one 1-wing (as 8-wing seems unlikely). Also some of your posts reminded me of how... non-critical I can be. As in, I don't think about things critically a lot. Like how in Harry Potter, I didn't get bothered by how some just get to be special thanks to being bored magical etc., at least until I saw someone else mention it, in which I did think... hm yeah, I can see how that kind of stuff in fantasy stories can be problematic. Although I realize it might be kind of iffy to type someone based on comparisons, but that's an example that got me thinking.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

LeoCat said:


> ... I can't stand seeing shamy being picked on for this so I am sharing my typing story.


aww, there there :sorrow:

On a serious note; you should stop intervening until you get yourself some reading skills. hmm, maybe you have that but lack any sorta "getting the point" ? Yup, that seems more likely.



> *Whatever suits you as far as your own typing process* but stay away from making bossy generalizations.





> *Whatever suits you as far as your own typing process...*





> *Whatever suits you as far as your own typing process...*


----------



## Golden Rose

Animal said:


> ^ this is just 7s
> 
> But yeah, I could see you as 4 or 3w4 fix. Why 4w3 > 4w5?


I could see both! 
w3 was mostly my idea for being hammier and more disconnected by my identity 

You think w5?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Shame Spiral said:


> Well, I said that because you said you'd been that way in the past. About the morality I mean. Although for the bunny rabbit thing, I don't know.
> 
> 
> Perhaps so. I don't really have that myself, but then I just have one 1-wing (as 8-wing seems unlikely). Also some of your posts reminded me of how... non-critical I can be. As in, I don't think about things critically a lot. Like how in Harry Potter, I didn't get bothered by how some just get to be special thanks to being bored magical etc., at least until I saw someone else mention it, in which I did think... hm yeah, I can see how that kind of stuff in fantasy stories can be problematic. Although I realize it might be kind of iffy to type someone based on comparisons, but that's an example that got me thinking.


Hmm... That is true. I am a lot more critical and openly passionate than 9s are supposed to be / are. I have been attributing this to the Fe/Ni influence, though. Obviously as an Fe-dominant I'm going to be more openly passionate and still defender-y, and the Ni and little inferior Ti makes me more analytical / critical I think. 

Hmm. I'll have to think on this. 

I'll try to do the 1 Core Beliefs tonight and tag you in it. If I make a new typing questionnaire (which I've been considering doing for a while now), I'll tag you in that as well. I wonder if I seem more of one type than I did another on the questionnaire now.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Animal said:


> My mistype history:
> 
> 2001:
> "This is enneagram - You're a 7w6."
> "okay. Can I borrow the book?"
> 
> .. 1 week later
> "My father is a 7, but I'm not. I think I'm a 4."
> "Actually that makes a lot of sense.... but the other 4s in the school are drug addicts and cutters.."
> "Hmm.. ok, thank goodness, I'd hate to be a 4! ... Maybe 5.. I do relate to 7 and 8... and 5 has lines to them both..."
> "Yeah.. You do have a lot of 8.."
> 
> / types at 5w4, gets caught up in major trauma and problems and puts enneagram aside.
> 
> 
> 2012:: Joins perc
> 
> 5w4
> 
> "Oh, what's this Sx thing.." "tritype?"
> 
> 2012:
> 
> 5w4 4w3 8w9 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 3w4 5w6 8w9 Sp/Sx ENFP
> 
> 2013:
> 
> 8wX 3w4 5w6 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 8wX 4w3 5w6 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 
> *sobs and waves goodbye to my beloved 3 fix*
> 
> 8wX 4w3 7w6 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 4w5 8w9 7w6 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 
> 2014:
> 
> 4w5 8w9 7w6 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 4w5 1w9 7w6 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 4w3 8w9 7w6 Sx/Sp ENFP
> 
> *yay I have a 3 wing! * *party*
> 
> (also typed as Sx/So at some point)
> 
> 2015:
> 
> Still 4w3 8w9 7w6 Sx/Sp.... but... INFP.


Wow, what brought about this conclusion? 

Why the sudden change from E to I? 

and also the enneagram typing.

Curious


----------



## Animal

Illuminaughty said:


> I could see both!
> w3 was mostly my idea for being hammier and more disconnected by my identity
> 
> You think w5?


I'm not sure. There's something a bit more..detached in it, than 4w3.. like its 3w4 or 4w5.. hard to explain.. more a vibe. 4w3 might work. I have to think about it.


----------



## Animal

GhostShadow said:


> Wow, what brought about this conclusion?
> 
> Why the sudden change from E to I?
> 
> and also the enneagram typing.
> 
> Curious


None of this was sudden. I've studied enneagram for a long time, and I have a history of trauma and chronic illness, so it was just a bit more complicated to get to the "bottom" of my type, even though 4 was my first instinct. I didn't want to believe it back then and was not in a place to accept it in myself.

The "sudden" change isnt sudden - all the changes were debated deeply for a long time. It's not that far off. Once I read some more authors, I knew I wasn't a 5, and then everything fell into place. I'd have to go into deep personal things in my history to explain why I typed at 8, but I swear it's not as ridiculous as it sounds :/


----------



## Golden Rose

Animal said:


> I'm not sure. There's something a bit more..detached in it, than 4w3.. like its 3w4 or 4w5.. hard to explain.. more a vibe. 4w3 might work. I have to think about it.


I'll keep 3w4 for now as it makes the most sense. 
A ridiculously impulsive core can make you forget any kind of diplomacy.

But 4s are more vengeful if I'm not mistaken, right? For me it was more a plaything of the moment then I skyped it off, ate, went to bed and now I have vodka \0/ (lol 9 fixers)


----------



## fair phantom

Illuminaughty said:


> I'll keep 3w4 for now as it makes the most sense.
> A ridiculously impulsive core can make you forget any kind of diplomacy.
> 
> But 4s are more vengeful if I'm not mistaken, right? For me it was more a plaything of the moment then I skyped it off, ate, went to bed and now I have vodka \0/ (lol 9 fixers)


I wouldn't say I'm a vengeful person. I think sx 4 can be?


----------



## Golden Rose

fair phantom said:


> I wouldn't say I'm a vengeful person. I think sx 4 can be?


Something I've always wondered about but I'm not sure whether my theory is true or not, if your main instinct refers to your core (like sx 7) does it apply to all of your fixes as well or are they more like extra stats on their own?

In this case it'd be sx 4 if it still mooches off my sx/so instinct.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Animal said:


> None of this was sudden. I've studied enneagram for a long time, and I have a history of trauma and chronic illness, so it was just a bit more complicated to get to the "bottom" of my type, even though 4 was my first instinct. I didn't want to believe it back then and was not in a place to accept it in myself.
> 
> The "sudden" change isnt sudden - all the changes were debated deeply for a long time. It's not that far off. Once I read some more authors, I knew I wasn't a 5, and then everything fell into place. I'd have to go into deep personal things in my history to explain why I typed at 8, but I swear it's not as ridiculous as it sounds :/


Oh my---GAWD! I hear my food burning as I write this, okay....

I was just curious as I have had similair experiences, so it's interesting to see that.


----------



## HellCat

That really is the key to understanding typing and yourself. Reading more authors as @_Animal_ said


Little man, do not address me. That was not a message to you that was regarding a LOT of people giving her shit over the year.

Now I am addressing you since you so stupidly got reactive and psycho over one line not even meaning your bullying of her which was more gradeschool shit than it was going after her type theories, What you said to her I have seen about ten people say at least. So it got me to say "something" to encourage the other people here struggling with understanding themselves and type. 

Whatever issue you have with women. 

Keep it off perc. Nobody did anything to you other than try to debate typology.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

LeoCat said:


> I don't look like one online. I certainly do in person. I get described as a Helena Bonham Carter type down to the wild dark red curls I never brush. My wedding dress was black lace with a nude underskirt I sewed myself. My senior yr quote was actually "lovingly embrace your inner weirdo, No matter what the cost" My envy is people who have normal lives. I have wanted one my whole life. A normal, boring, americano suburban saltine cracker existence. With no crazy people and no cult leader father.
> 
> My shame- my insane family.
> 
> The way I dealt with it== by being as normal as possible, doing everything to try to blend in and be normal but still being told I stand out like a peacock.
> @_Animal_ agrees and so does captswan. I can't stand seeing shamy being picked on for this so I am sharing my typing story.


Ha, I relate to you on this so much.

Growing up I used to envy all my friends so badly, and desperately wanted to just have a normal life with a normal family. 

I've come to accept that I'm sort of just sort of 'different' and don't try to fight or worry about how that may set me apart, or bring me attention as I have never really been able to for whatever reason fit into the norm, that even now if I tried, I think would feel too confining. But I still day-dream about being normal sometimes...

Like a leopard trying to hide their spots, or something? I dunno

It actually makes me pretty sad some days.


----------



## Metalize

Meow.


----------



## Animal

GhostShadow said:


> Oh my---GAWD! I hear my food burning as I write this, okay....
> 
> I was just curious as I have had similair experiences, so it's interesting to see that.


Haha sorry :x I didn't mean to sound like that :X

I am usually happy to talk about it, actually. I've just.. had a really.. tough month. A friend died, the person who inspired me the most musically lost their ability to play (and I lost my own voice in the past and was a career singer), and a lot of things in my personal life have changed really fast, so I'm just sort of emotionally overwhelmed. And I get sensitive when talking about my typing process, so I guess I wanted to say NOPE before I went there in this exhausted mood and upset anyone or got oversensitive, whiny , etc, but I ended up doing it anyway. >.<

But I can tell you more about it when I'm a bit more awake and more able to think clearly.

In which way were your experiences similar? Now I am curious too


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Animal said:


> Haha sorry :x I didn't mean to sound like that :X
> 
> I am usually happy to talk about it, actually. I've just.. had a really.. tough month. A friend died, the person who inspired me the most musically lost their ability to play (and I lost my own voice in the past and was a career singer), and a lot of things in my personal life have changed really fast, so I'm just sort of emotionally overwhelmed. And I get sensitive when talking about my typing process, so I guess I wanted to say NOPE before I went there in this exhausted mood and upset anyone or got oversensitive, whiny , etc, but I ended up doing it anyway. >.<
> 
> But I can tell you more about it when I'm a bit more awake and more able to think clearly.
> 
> In which way were your experiences similar? Now I am curious too


Wut?

Oh, It's not that big of a deal if you reply or not...

Okay, honestly I'll probably be looked at begrudgingly here, but I don't put that much stock in the Enneagram, or type-theory, in so much. For me, I feel as though it can really help with helping you understand your flaws and weaknesses, but nothing will ever completely be able to tell you, or define who you are, but your own self. So I hesitate to rely on it that much. At least now, that I feel like I've overcome many of the pitfalls and tribulations of unfortunately being a 4 type; to which I would say, I am probably eternally grateful for. The Enneagram has managed to help me so much more then anytherapy, or tool for self-development I have managed to ever stumble across (BESIDES DRUUUUGSSSZZ!!!1 /sarcasm) 

Erm....I suppose I have come to the conclusion that I may in fact be a 4w3, after years of thinking that I was merely just a 4w5, even though I had always related to the 3-type a fair amount. Recently, I was just jimmying around, and tried the enneagram tests again, as I have changed and grown so much in comparison to the years prior to discovering the Enneagram, and I actually received 5w4, to which I had mulled over a bit and had decided to just take that, as I felt it perhaps actually fit me moreso, as I didn't seem to care a great deal about being 'unique' anymore, and was far less subjective. 

But upon posting in this thread not too long ago out of curiosity, and some opinions from my friends, I had realized that being a 5 was pretty unlikely. So there upon, self-reflecting some more, I realized that a type 3 was actually fairly possible, but then the thought of not being a 4 made me look back at my life, who I am, and realized that the reason I don't notice my 4 traits as much anymore is because they've become so deep, and almost unconscious part of who I am that I hardly realize or notice any of the traits or preferences anymore. 

Wait, I think you must of saw of that, didn't you?

Oh hey, what do you think of Muse's new album "Drones" by the way? the whole metaphor and theme of that album seem way too uninspired and basic...but I still love their riffs, if anything. maybe it's just me but it almost feels like with the whole theme they could have taken it out from some kind of template from a rock 101 type book. Be anti-authority, be rebellious, etc tec



Fun-pop-rock music...


----------



## Mr inappropriate

LeoCat said:


> That really is the key to understanding typing and yourself. Reading more authors as @_Animal_ said
> 
> 
> Little man, do not address me. That was not a message to you that was regarding a LOT of people giving her shit over the year.
> 
> Now I am addressing you since you so stupidly got reactive and psycho over one line not even meaning your bullying of her which was more gradeschool shit than it was going after her type theories, What you said to her I have seen about ten people say at least. So it got me to say "something" to encourage the other people here struggling with understanding themselves and type.
> 
> Whatever issue you have with women.
> 
> Keep it off perc. Nobody did anything to you other than try to debate typology.


How reactive of me  You surely must have meant other 10+ recent encounters and I got all defensive for no reason. 

I have issues with women ? Yeah why not, if you all insist that much.

Fact is, I'm not keeping it off perC either,so deal with it or stop me you little .. keyboard warrior


----------



## HellCat

crashbandicoot said:


> How reactive of me  You surely must have meant other 10+ recent encounters and I got all defensive for no reason.
> 
> I have issues with women ? Yeah why not, if you all insist that much.
> 
> Fact is, I'm not keeping it off perC either,so deal with it or stop me you little .. keyboard warrior


You know whats more effective is to actually discuss whats eating at you than this behaviour. 

Men who lash out at women they do not know. Often grow up to be bitter, angry men still lashing out at women. 

You can say this is the internet but it should not matter if its in text or face to face. Conducting yourself in such a rash and angry manner is unhealthy. 

Even people who troll or fight to "let off steam" Never solve their problems.

I am guessing you are under eighteen. So there is really no point in suggesting introspection and not lecturing random people on a system you have hardly read up on judging by your last ten posts.  

Keyboard warrior. I'll take it. 

It conveys a certain eloquence.


If you want to learn the system I suggest you read Chesnut and Palmer first.


----------



## HellCat

http://www.filedropper.com/menwhohatewomen


http://www.filedropper.com/daringgreatlyhowthecouragetobevulnerabletr-brenebrown1


You might benefit from these as well. 

I hope you read them. I took ten minutes out of my work to upload.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Lol @"Keyboard Warrior"











On a side note: I just figured out a song on the guitar, by playing with it while it was playing, wtf, lol.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

LeoCat said:


> You know whats more effective is to actually discuss whats eating at you than this behaviour.
> 
> Men who lash out at women they do not know. Often grow up to be bitter, angry men still lashing out at women.
> 
> You can say this is the internet but it should not matter if its in text or face to face. Conducting yourself in such a rash and angry manner is unhealthy.
> 
> Even people who troll or fight to "let off steam" Never solve their problems.
> 
> I am guessing you are under eighteen. So there is really no point in suggesting introspection and not lecturing random people on a system you have hardly read up on judging by your last ten posts.
> 
> Keyboard warrior. I'll take it.
> 
> It conveys a certain eloquence.
> 
> 
> If you want to learn the system I suggest you read Chesnut and Palmer first.


Thats better, keep your tone down and fall back on your baseless assumptions like that rather than calling names when addressing me . Dont wanna get a 2nd infraction for today 

I've actually read Palmer, hard copy of understanding yourself and others and chestnut's 27 subtype sth titled book.

Hmm, lol  I must have a really small penis to be hateful towards women as much as I am :laughing:

If you can adress me on this one as well, such as showing a post in which I engaged in said behaviour, I'll appreciate it and dont do it again. Thanks in advance 

If you cant though  wonder what that makes you, a shameless liar or just pathetic overall as a person?


----------



## HellCat

crashbandicoot said:


> Thats better, keep your tone down and fall back on your baseless assumptions like that rather than calling names when addressing me . Dont wanna get a 2nd infraction for today
> 
> I've actually read Palmer, hard copy of understanding yourself and others and chestnut's 27 subtype sth titled book.
> 
> Hmm, lol  I must have a really small penis to be hateful towards women as much as I am :laughing:
> 
> If you can adress me on this one as well, such as showing a post in which I engaged in said behaviour, I'll appreciate it and dont do it again. Thanks in advance
> 
> If you cant though  wonder what that makes you, a shameless liar or just pathetic overall as a person?



I don't know about your genitalia and that hardly makes a difference but your haughtiness is definitely trying to cover some insecurities. 

The most interesting post since I took your challenge and just summed you up in general was this one. Admitting you are reactive and a very angry man. Also making the idea of an actual debate with you about typing or your behaviour here impossible. 
Go chew on someone elses ankle. 

Quoting the link here for people who don't want to click it. 

{Ooo i was soo mean. *cries*

Dont need drugzz though, i get high from insulting people and calling out on their bs.}

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...es-have-something-against-27.html#post8986474

My advice is you get therapy, Oozing rage over nothing. Maybe its been a bad day but judging by the above post, its just a hobby of yours. 

Go ahead and report this til your finger goes numb. It won't make my words any less true.

People like that do not have happy endings.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

LeoCat said:


> I don't know about your genitalia and that hardly makes a difference but your haughtiness is definitely trying to cover some insecurities.
> 
> The most interesting post since I took your challenge and just summed you up in general was this one. Admitting you are reactive and a very angry man. Also making the idea of an actual debate with you about typing or your behaviour here impossible.
> Go chew on someone elses ankle.
> 
> Quoting the link here for people who don't want to click it.
> 
> {Ooo i was soo mean. *cries*
> 
> Dont need drugzz though, i get high from insulting people and calling out on their bs.}
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...es-have-something-against-27.html#post8986474
> 
> My advice is you get therapy, Oozing rage over nothing. Maybe its been a bad day but judging by the above post, its just a hobby of yours.
> 
> Go ahead and report this til your finger goes numb. It won't make my words any less true.
> 
> People like that do not have happy endings.


hahah  cute but thats not an example of me being hateful against women. 
You just proved your worth, being a pathetic liar. I wont respond to your baseless claims anymore  

FYI, I'm 24 and have a gf who I adore 

Stay classy and dont be a burden on my fingers anymore, all right ? :biggrin-new:


----------



## BroNerd

Paradigm said:


> I always thought of as instinct being more innate, more "baseline" than type. Meaning it would almost override type, at times -- so your SP/SX typing could easily explain a lot, such as your "need to ... maintain my independence and sense of self."
> 
> But as for 3v6... Question: if you were not anxious, then what type would you see yourself in most?


Tough call. I'm very prone to troubleshooting and preparing for the worst-case scenarios. I think it helps me be more prepared for success and to be a step ahead of others. I can predict potential dangers. I do like to take action though and can get impatient with those more slow to do so - including some 6s in my life, such as my current girlfriend. I like to be the best and can get hyper competitive. I have no problems with being in the spotlight.
I tend to avoid activities where I can't excel and focus on my strengths.


----------



## BroNerd

On another note, I think I've been stuck too much on the stereotype of 5s being the most "intelligent" of the Enneagram types. 
I relate more to the 7 approach to dealing with anxiety than the 5 approach.. 6w7 makes a lot of sense for me.


----------



## BroNerd

On the whole, I'm most likely a 6w7 with a very strong connection to 3.
Unless 3s can be total naturals at troubleshooting. I feel like that is a big part to helping me be successful.
I analyze everything and take action.


----------



## 7rr7s

Illuminaughty said:


> @_KindOfBlue06_ thinks I'm likely 4w3 fixed
> Going by this thread alone I have a darker, no fucks given, angry reactive fix somewhere so I agree.
> 
> @_Animal_ @_Superfluous_ @_DAPHNE LXIV_ @_Alette_?


I don't see 3 core, and a hesitant about a 3 fix. Do you think your trolly behavior is reactive?


----------



## daleks_exterminate

I was recently told by two people that I may be a 6-2-8 instead of a 6-4-8....

i doubt it, but I'll pretty much check out any suggestions because I want to learn, grow and discover. Also, who knows maybe in wrong. 

what are the differences? 
What do you see?
why?


----------



## Golden Rose

KindOfBlue06 said:


> I don't see 3 core, and a hesitant about a 3 fix. Do you think your trolly behavior is reactive?


Honestly? I think so!
2-fix would imply that I have endless pride and I barf rainbows and sunshine but that's not it!
You know I have a degree in self deprecation 

But is my detachment/diplomacy good enough for a 3-fixer?
I fell for the most basic of grudgy trolls!


----------



## Animal

Daleks_Exterminate said:


> I was recently told by two people that I may be a 6-2-8 instead of a 6-4-8....
> 
> i doubt it, but I'll pretty much check out any suggestions because I want to learn, grow and discover. Also, who knows maybe in wrong.
> 
> what are the differences?
> What do you see?
> why?


Why 2?


----------



## Eclipsed

@Illuminaughty

What @crashbandicoot is trying to say, albeit rather tactlessly, is that you should _stop spreading misinformation_.

I've mistyped dozens of times myself- you mistyping is not the problem here. Your erratic behaviour is not irritating because you change types every week, but because you still have the audacity to advise others on what their type might be and to act as if you actually understand something about the enneagram. It took me years to be sure enough to even form opinions on what other people/types in general are simply because I acknowledged that I did not fully understand the enneagram or myself. Only recently have I even begun to trust my own ideas and share them at all... because my type and self-understanding has been consistent for a very long time, not just two months at most like in your case. You seem to have the opposite attitude towards this and it's unbelievably rash and arrogant.

Yes, I am aware that you can have a strong grasp on enneagram theory and be unable to type yourself, but that doesn't apply to you. You don't care about what your type is and the enlightenment that enneagram can potentially provide for you. No, what you want is a label to cling to. Have you ever tried being "unknown personality" for more than a day? How can you claim to understand the system if you deflect anything that doesn't appeal to you or doesn't fit in with your "identity" at the time?

It's evident that you haven't learned anything from your mistakes or have any desire to do so. You're just running around in circles and seem quite content to do so. Even when you talk about yourself, you feel a need to label yourself. You don't just change your type, you change your _personality_. Where have your recent, ridiculously concise posts as INTJ gone? The ENFP bubbliness? The grossly exaggerated "love of darkness" from your INFP days? From the moment you change your type label, you act as though "everything suddenly makes sense" and you come to some "profound realization" about yourself. You are immersed in the enneagram to the point that you're unable to see yourself as you really are, and thus you can emulate certain characteristics whenever it pleases you.

You not only can't type yourself, but you don't even care what your type is. Don't pull your "stereotypical ENTP troll" excuse, either. You're not "type-trolling" at this point. You are actively _lying_ to yourself and the people around you. That is not okay. I don't care about your own self-delusions, but your behaviour has the potential to be harmful to those around you. I have a problem with that.

The reason I say this is because you're a frequent poster on PerC, and believe it not, some people actually view you as an authority on this forum. God knows what's going through their minds, but at least have some decency and stop acting like you know everything. I understand that you can do "whatever you want" and "say whatever you want" but the way you're behaving and denying your own effect on other people is, quite frankly, repulsive. This post won't change anything but I am tired of people not seeing through your bullshit.


----------



## Golden Rose

@bellicose

I never claimed to be an authority, I'm not telling people to listen to me nor I claim to be 100% accurate.
You don't know me so drop your own audacity to moralize me and this discussion altogether.

Other people have it all figured out, right away? Good for them.
I'm not here to make concessions and you've got no clue about what's going on in my head so scram.


----------



## 7rr7s

Illuminaughty said:


> Honestly? I think so!
> 2-fix would imply that I have endless pride and I barf rainbows and sunshine but that's not it!
> You know I have a degree in self deprecation
> 
> But is my detachment/diplomacy good enough for a 3-fixer?
> I fell for the most basic of grudgy trolls!


I'd say it's more indicative of 4 then.


----------



## Golden Rose

KindOfBlue06 said:


> I'd say it's more indicative of 4 then.


I've had core 5 suggested again so that would probably change things even further if correct.
I'll try to figure out this mess.


----------



## Donovan

oh shit. are people feeling left out? like they're not getting enough attention, because of someone else's typing patterns? 


who... 
gives...
a... 
fuck...? 

baby burning jesus in hell, don't get me wrong, i love all the "drama" and i _do_ keep checking back in, hoping it hasn't died off yet. but... _what is the problem?_ i still don't understand it, and i've literally gone back over and read most of the argument, but... i can't seem to find where it actually began (...anyone?). 


it can't really be because someone's going to get taken in by another person's confusion. i mean, this isn't that serious. and if they are going to get "taken in", then it's going to happen with another "swindler" () until they learn better. the mentality needed for any of that to happen is probably already present in them... like, what's the big deal again? 


i think this is the moment where we should all join hands and love on each other (...hahaha). we can just cry it out guys. a good 'ol cry? seriously? i mean, can we?


----------



## HellCat

Donovan said:


> oh shit. are people feeling left out? like they're not getting enough attention, because of someone else's typing patterns?
> 
> 
> who...
> gives...
> a...
> fuck...?
> 
> baby burning jesus in hell, don't get me wrong, i love all the "drama" and i _do_ keep checking back in, hoping it hasn't died off yet. but... _what is the problem?_ i still don't understand it, and i've literally gone back over and read most of the argument, but... i can't seem to find where it actually began (...anyone?).
> 
> 
> it can't really be because someone's going to get taken in by another person's confusion. i mean, this isn't that serious. and if they are going to get "taken in", then it's going to happen with another "swindler" () until they learn better. the mentality needed for any of that to happen is probably already present in them... like, what's the big deal again?
> 
> 
> i think this is the moment where we should all join hands and love on each other (...hahaha). we can just cry it out guys. a good 'ol cry? seriously? i mean, can we?



Joining hands and a group therapy session sure would be interesting. @_Animal_ and I turned the eight forum into one two years ago (focusing on vulnerability, honesty, shame, fear, and more..getting people to take an honest look at themselves and it lasted from May '13 until about January '14.. long beautiful months of healing. Resulting in a husband for me. Score! 

Questioning your type eh ? What are you leaning toward?


----------



## DAPHNE XO

Yeah, I'm kinda over this "Illuminaughty is arrogant and annoying" thing. 

She's learning. And due to circumstances beyond her control, her journey to self-awareness isn't as smooth as the rest of us. Tbh @_bellicose_, you sound incredibly self-righteous with your ridiculous essay: "I'm doing this for your benefit and the benefit of other people you care about," ummm no thanks, no one appointed you the spokesperson for us all. She's clearly struggling with her typing and her _actual _friends are talking to her about it _in private _and providing the soundboard she needs in order to do so successfully.

Every person goes through a stage where they try out different identities, everyone. The fact that Illuminaughty can do it while _still _being highly revered by a lot of people speaks _volumes_ about her character and raw intelligence even if her personality isn't stable.

I know you like to think you've done us all a grand favour by speaking the truth everyone was too "scared" to say, but really you just look annoyingly preachy. Everyone can see she's struggling with her type, but more experienced people will realise that her intentions are not to mislead anyone.

We've got this. So if you've not got anything else useful to say, I suggest you back up, back off and keep it moving. Thanks

:happy:


----------



## Animal

:th_Jttesur:


----------



## ATLeow

Illuminaughty said:


> You don't know me so drop your own audacity to moralize me and this discussion altogether.
> <snip>
> I'm not here to make concessions


I'd like to draw your attention, and the various people who've replied to back you up, to the title of the thread, in the event anyone didn't notice the large, bolded letters at the top:








The purpose of this thread is for people to indicate whether or not they think others are mistyped, and if they cannot themselves suggest an alternative, then pointing out flaws in the user's own typing process, as the second person sees it, of couse, seems a pretty valid and potentially helpful thing to do.
If you're not here to make concessions, which I read as (and I may be wrong) to concede a foreign point, then you must be here to hear only those things which you wish to hear. I think your reaction to someone questioning you - unsettling things said, certainly things one wouldn't wish to hear, but nothing unreasoned, nothing aggressive, nothing which cannot be debated tolerably, nothing that doesn't deserve consideration equally with anything anyone says here - is exceedingly immature. 'Scram'? I think you're missing the point of this thread entirely, and being offensive and belittling to others in the process. Maybe you should reply to what other people actually have to say - even if you don't like it. If this is your attitude towards others who disagree, perhaps the 'audacity' you mention is that of tolerating this kind of reply. It's childish.



DAPHNE LXIV said:


> Yeah, I'm kinda over this "Illuminaughty is arrogant and annoying" thing.
> 
> Tbh @_bellicose_, you sound incredibly self-righteous with your ridiculous essay: "I'm doing this for your benefit and the benefit of other people you care about," ummm no thanks, no one appointed you the spokesperson for us all. She's clearly struggling with her typing and her _actual _friends are talking to her about it _in private _and providing the soundboard she needs in order to do so successfully.
> 
> Every person goes through a stage where they try out different identities, everyone. The fact that Illuminaughty can do it while _still _being highly revered by a lot of people speaks _volumes_ about her character and raw intelligence even if her personality isn't stable.
> 
> I know you like to think you've done us all a grand favour by speaking the truth everyone was too "scared" to say, but really you just look annoyingly preachy. Everyone can see she's struggling with her type, but more experienced people will realise that her intentions are not to mislead anyone.


This is not a friend's privilege, much as you apparently seek to make it otherwise. You'll be aware that this is an online community where people can generally observe each other, often fairly thoroughly. People are free to point out whatever the hell they like provided they're civil about it. If they can back up their statements with some observation, I don't see a problem. If someone disagrees with what they say, they can reply and address their points; this is how debate works, the idea being that you learn from it. What you instead did was decide to be factional and belittling, making several un-points in reply without really addressing any of it. You make a strawman argument, drawing conclusions quite aside from what were implicit in the post you replied to and are very condescending along the way. If typing is something reserved for _actual_ friends in _private, _as you quite clearly imply, I think this thread is very unnecessary, is it not? You reply to no points raised at all, argue against points drawn very inadequately from what was actually said and use your post to, in effect, say that no-one not in your in-group could possibly have anything credible to say.
'We've got this. So if you've not got anything else useful to say, I suggest you back up, back off and keep it moving.' Interesting you level an accusation of self-righteousness. I would like to remind you that this thread isn't the den for your clique and yes-men.
I think this is a very poor attitude, and furthermore not constructive. Affirms your lauded group of friends, no doubt, but unconstructive and narrow-minded. Maybe you, too, could stand to consider other points of view; that way, at least, you'd be able to reply to them; as it is, you didn't enquire into any of the reasoning behind it, because in fairness, nothing was explicitly cited in that post. It's fine to disagree substantively, of course; that's the whole point. It's a shame you squandered your opportunity, some useful conversation may actually have come of it.



Donovan said:


> oh shit. are people feeling left out? like they're not getting enough attention, because of someone else's typing patterns?
> 
> who...
> gives...
> a...
> fuck...?
> 
> baby burning jesus in hell, don't get me wrong, i love all the "drama" and i _do_ keep checking back in, hoping it hasn't died off yet. but... _what is the problem?_ i still don't understand it, and i've literally gone back over and read most of the argument, but... i can't seem to find where it actually began (...anyone?).
> 
> it can't really be because someone's going to get taken in by another person's confusion. i mean, this isn't that serious. and if they are going to get "taken in", then it's going to happen with another "swindler" () until they learn better. the mentality needed for any of that to happen is probably already present in them... like, what's the big deal again?


Who gives a fuck? Well, it's a typing thread. Are you not here for that, did you miss the thread title? People pose hypotheses to be agreed or disagreed with.Please correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like I'm missing something here; you seem to know something about this thread which I don't.
That said, your 'oh people must be feeling left out' kind of insulting reply makes me think it's really not about that, and more an issue of taking sides for you. Seems an obvious justification to attack other people for the mere act of their disagreement, given that it's such an empty-headed and thoughtless slight to throw otherwise. Doesn't give a good account of you either, except to your friends, I'm sure.

The cliques and leaping to defence of others here, attacking newcomers, anyone who doesn't agree with what the 'group' seems to think, anyone who doesn't have an opinion people aren't already willing to listen to, anyone who is a voice of dissent at all against the established majority, nomatter what they actually have to say, is the kind of petty, group-narcissistic bullshit which keeps me out of the enneagram forum, which is a shame given that I actually like it, and keeps the people in it blind to their own mistakes for long periods.
I think it's pitiful, childish, unreasonable, irrational and immature; not just this, to clarify, although it's an excellent reminder of wider trends. Although since I feel assured this will all fall on deaf ears, I may as well applaud you all for making such loyal friends and such solid, self-assuring norms. Well done.


----------



## Donovan

LeoCat said:


> Joining hands and a group therapy session sure would be interesting. @_Animal_ and I turned the eight forum into one two years ago (focusing on vulnerability, honesty, shame, fear, and more..getting people to take an honest look at themselves and it lasted from May '13 until about January '14.. long beautiful months of healing. Resulting in a husband for me. Score!
> 
> Questioning your type eh ? What are you leaning toward?


lol, that's awesome. and i didn't know that's how you and Scelerat met; really, really cool, under those kind of circumstances... 

i don't really know that i have a type when it comes down to it. i honestly don't know enough about the theory to apply it to myself--or enough about myself (there seems to quite a lot to sift through)... 
i've thought 2 before, and then cringed at all the two-related stuff i wrote one day as i began to think that it might have applied to me instead (i was in a fucked up place; easy to take on the negative characteristics of another person sometimes, to believe that their bs was yours, in an effort to avoid absolutely hating them). and i get along with them so well, every time i meet one, which made me think along the previous lines again, until i noticed that other twos of average health do _not_ like their fellow twos (in my experience at least)... 
i've thought 1 before, because my temper can frighten me, and the want to just tear another person down completely (i always default to refraining in the end) still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. i thought that that was a super-ego-related thing, but i'm not sure that it is. it's less "this shall not be! i've done something terrible. i know better!", more than it is in knowing how they feel, and in knowing all that ugly dark mess i've grown up with. i mean, i've experienced it from others on a near constant basis while growing up--and yet i still gave it just as much, not trying to make myself out to be some poor put-upon person--so i know what kind of present i just gave someone... it just feels kind of empty afterwards. 
i've thought 8, but after working with two of them (currently), i'm not so sure. there are times when they fight, or they check someone's bs, and i'm just like, "why? why did you handle it like that?". they also seem much more on the lookout to fight another, whereas i'm more content to just do my thing and basically ignore everyone else... we get along very well though, for whatever that's worth (always has been that way with people that i've seen as 8's. we either butt heads and hate each other, or we slowly acquire that sort of "unfiltered camaraderie" that begins with mutual respect and each basically pretending to ignore the other person). 
i can still see 6 as well, maybe even a jaded, more bitter type of 7. but then again, the time period where i thought i was a 6 i basically did not--and for a large part still don't--feel like myself. almost like everything is experienced from under a thin layer of water, muted and dumbed-down, like present reality is more of an echo than it is anything else... 

i don't know if it's significant to typing, but in real life people think i'm just the nicest, sweetest person they've ever met (which i have to laugh internally at. i think all they show with that, is that they don't really know me that well). it's like they assume i've always had this halo around my head, but forgot that they put it there themselves... and i left it, because i like the way it looks, . 
i think it really throws them through a loop whenever i do (rarely--because it's usually just too much of a bother to bite back when i know some idiotic sack of shit is going to get their ego hurt and escalate an 'incident' into something where i'm able to actually able to find temper, as opposed to just being annoyed) become aggressive, because it's gotta be a pretty sharp contrast to what they're used to seeing out of me. 
and i don't even mean to make it sound like i'm some billy-badass douchebag--again, most people see me as easy going and even gentle (which earns me monikers like "awe, Donovan's adorable! aren't you Donovan? you're just so great", kind of similar to how people speak about a dog, like it's not even there lol *throws hands up*; and again, cue the internal laughter or eye roll, and internal this time because i know they think they're giving me a compliment and i don't want to hurt their feelings for doing so)... but, there is a type of anger that other people naturally give a wide berth. and everyone's got it--they really do in fact--but not everyone is in touch with it... probably for the best, going off of other's reactions, cause it seems like they're unnerved, as if someone shouldn't ever respond in such a way, or that something most definitely has to be wrong with me, or like you're a dog that might be potentially dangerous. 
and then there's always the chance someone else wants to be a fucking hero for their little group and "save the day" by calming the situation down, but instead of actually addressing the problem, they just move towards whoever is being the loudest or "scariest" (because "loud noises" scare people apparently, as if they were stupid cattle)--which i would say is a side effect of the existing problem, and you don't treat symptoms lol, you _actually deal with the problem_. 
i would actually say my anger is more of a nuisance, because i'm not the type of person to let something go if i'm actually bothered, but i also don't have the energy to make sure people unconsciously default towards just accepting my behavior by doing the whole "social tough guy"-thing, where they want to befriend you even if you happened to be in the wrong, as opposed to going against you. and people always want to gang up--which i honestly have no problem with, i'll just have that much less remorse after the fact, so in a way they're doing me a favor--but that actually means that i'll have to "cause a scene", have the police called, pay for a lawyer i don't have money for, etc... so, when all i want to do is take someone to the ground and scream and growl in their face, and put the fear of god into them until my tendons are so shot i can't even my open my fists back up and i feel as if i'm about to throw up, all they want to do is impress the people they're with, and i feel certain i'll be the one going to jail afterwards. it's a lose-lose situation. (i don't know lol, maybe i actually do in fact have ptsd, and have just been living with it since i was a child, and none of that is actually "normal human behavior")... 
pre-edit: uggh, sorry, venting... 


but in any case, i feel like, from what i can see, 8's usually want to exert more control over their areas, and so can ironically enough, default towards their social appearance to dissuade and control people... which just seems like waayyyy too much work for me. i'd rather do what i'm going to do and then go out drinking with a few close friends. 

_but_, at this point in my life i just really have no idea. my focus is finding better way to pay my bills before i go back to school, and just trying to get to a point where i don't always feel like shit is falling apart.

...and now i'm going to post all of this and grab some taco bell before i can erase it, as some of it is a little embarrassing.


----------



## Donovan

ATLeow said:


> I'd like to draw your attention, and the various people who've replied to back you up, to the title of the thread, in the event anyone didn't notice the large, bolded letters at the top:
> 
> View attachment 343409
> 
> The purpose of this thread is for people to indicate whether or not they think others are mistyped, and if they cannot themselves suggest an alternative, then pointing out flaws in the user's own typing process, as the second person sees it, of couse, seems a pretty valid and potentially helpful thing to do.
> If you're not here to make concessions, which I read as (and I may be wrong) to concede a foreign point, then you must be here to hear only those things which you wish to hear. I think your reaction to someone questioning you - unsettling things said, certainly things one wouldn't wish to hear, but nothing unreasoned, nothing aggressive, nothing which cannot be debated tolerably, nothing that doesn't deserve consideration equally with anything anyone says here - is exceedingly immature. 'Scram'? I think you're missing the point of this thread entirely, and being offensive and belittling to others in the process. Maybe you should reply to what other people actually have to say - even if you don't like it. If this is your attitude towards others who disagree, perhaps the 'audacity' you mention is that of tolerating this kind of reply. It's childish.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not a friend's privilege, much as you apparently seek to make it otherwise. You'll be aware that this is an online community where people can generally observe each other, often fairly thoroughly. People are free to point out whatever the hell they like provided they're civil about it. If they can back up their statements with some observation, I don't see a problem. If someone disagrees with what they say, they can reply and address their points; this is how debate works, the idea being that you learn from it. What you instead did was decide to be factional and belittling, making several un-points in reply without really addressing any of it. You make a strawman argument, drawing conclusions quite aside from what were implicit in the post you replied to and are very condescending along the way. If typing is something reserved for _actual_ friends in _private, _as you quite clearly imply, I think this thread is very unnecessary, is it not? You reply to no points raised at all, argue against points drawn very inadequately from what was actually said and use your post to, in effect, say that no-one not in your in-group could possibly have anything credible to say.
> 'We've got this. So if you've not got anything else useful to say, I suggest you back up, back off and keep it moving.' Interesting you level an accusation of self-righteousness. I would like to remind you that this thread isn't the den for your clique and yes-men.
> I think this is a very poor attitude, and furthermore not constructive. Affirms your lauded group of friends, no doubt, but unconstructive and narrow-minded. Maybe you, too, could stand to consider other points of view; that way, at least, you'd be able to reply to them; as it is, you didn't enquire into any of the reasoning behind it, because in fairness, nothing was explicitly cited in that post. It's fine to disagree substantively, of course; that's the whole point. It's a shame you squandered your opportunity, some useful conversation may actually have come of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Who gives a fuck? Well, it's a typing thread. Are you not here for that, did you miss the thread title? People pose hypotheses to be agreed or disagreed with.Please correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like I'm missing something here; you seem to know something about this thread which I don't.
> That said, your 'oh people must be feeling left out' kind of insulting reply makes me think it's really not about that, and more an issue of taking sides for you. Seems an obvious justification to attack other people for the mere act of their disagreement, given that it's such an empty-headed and thoughtless slight to throw otherwise. Doesn't give a good account of you either, except to your friends, I'm sure.
> 
> The cliques and leaping to defence of others here, attacking newcomers, anyone who doesn't agree with what the 'group' seems to think, anyone who doesn't have an opinion people aren't already willing to listen to, anyone who is a voice of dissent at all against the established majority, nomatter what they actually have to say, is the kind of petty, group-narcissistic bullshit which keeps me out of the enneagram forum, which is a shame given that I actually like it, and keeps the people in it blind to their own mistakes for long periods.
> I think it's pitiful, childish, unreasonable, irrational and immature; not just this, to clarify, although it's an excellent reminder of wider trends. Although since I feel assured this will all fall on deaf ears, I may as well applaud you all for making such loyal friends and such solid, self-assuring norms. Well done.


pot meet kettle. i mean really dude, just shut the fuck up already. i didn't tag that person, for all anyone knows i was speaking about everyone, or half of the people, or my dog who absolutely hates Illum.'s "inauthentic use of the enneagram". (and again: what. are. you. doing. right. this. second. if. not the exact same goddamn thing you're accusing me of? huh? what is it?)

and i'm not friends with anyone on this site you silly little idiot. i may like or respect other people, but i don't know anyone well enough to be like, "hey, y'all, this ma friend righ' hayre. lightin' up, will ya?!", hahahahahahaha! jesus... 

and it may be a typing thread, but does a typing thread have to include an endless amount of bullshit? is that also par the course here man? i mean, you are obviously an expert on how we should be conducting ourselves--and my earlier post really hurt your poor little feelings--you should have no problem going into an endless amount of Fi-fueled butt-fucking-hurt about this. i cannot wait. please, please... please...


please...

... please...? 

please, cry some more. oh my _god_. 

now i'm going to get some--again--taco bell. i'll be back later for what i'm sure will be another amazing, tear-filled escapade of how we wronged _your_ friends (and by the way, lol, who was i even talking about? and if they weren't pulling that kind of shit, how would you even know _who i was talking about_? huh? which one's your girlfriend man?)


----------



## beth x

Thread warning;

This is titled the "_*gently*_ honest mistype" thread. Please discontinue with personal arguments which do not concern the idea of the thread and keep in mind that rule #13 might come into play if the type of posting in the last few posts continues.




> 13. Complaints About Staff Decisions Should Be Brought To TreeBob
> If you have a question, comment, or complaint about a decision made by staff, please send a private message to @TreeBob instead of posting about it. Issues should be resolved by the parties involved, not the entirety of the community. Messaging staff directly allows us to deal directly with the problem.
> 
> If a post is made that breaks the following rules, it will likely be deleted. In more serious cases, users can be warned privately or infracted (warned publicly) about the post. If the behavior persists, or if the user is here primarily to break rules, they may be banned.


http://personalitycafe.com/announcements/540-personality-cafe-forum-rules.html#post10989


----------



## Vaka

I've changed types fairly a bit, tho I feel, like I've said to Illuminaughty, that's it's because my internal states have taken me on a rollercoaster...For reasons that have nothing to do with enneagram. I feel close to 5's separation from what is around them, detachment, holding onto resources, holding back....A sense of feeling as if GIVING these things would draw a connection that could be overwhelming, suck away life. And so I feel I have a 5 fix. Othertimes I feel a superficial connection to 7, gluttony and the such. I can look at myself from various perspectives, I can observe myself in a moment and see myself exhibiting something new the next moment. Understanding the self is not straightforward. The self is confounding, it's a puzzle, and I can understand people stepping back for a little and just having fun with it too. I did that with mbti


----------



## HellCat

Donovan said:


> lol, that's awesome. and i didn't know that's how you and Scelerat met; really, really cool, under those kind of circumstances...
> 
> i don't really know that i have a type when it comes down to it. i honestly don't know enough about the theory to apply it to myself--or enough about myself (there seems to quite a lot to sift through)...
> i've thought 2 before, and then cringed at all the two-related stuff i wrote one day as i began to think that it might have applied to me instead (i was in a fucked up place; easy to take on the negative characteristics of another person sometimes, to believe that their bs was yours, in an effort to avoid absolutely hating them). and i get along with them so well, every time i meet one, which made me think along the previous lines again, until i noticed that other twos of average health do _not_ like their fellow twos (in my experience at least)...
> i've thought 1 before, because my temper can frighten me, and the want to just tear another person down completely (i always default to refraining in the end) still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. i thought that that was a super-ego-related thing, but i'm not sure that it is. it's less "this shall not be! i've done something terrible. i know better!", more than it is in knowing how they feel, and in knowing all that ugly dark mess i've grown up with. i mean, i've experienced it from others on a near constant basis while growing up--and yet i still gave it just as much, not trying to make myself out to be some poor put-upon person--so i know what kind of present i just gave someone... it just feels kind of empty afterwards.
> i've thought 8, but after working with two of them (currently), i'm not so sure. there are times when they fight, or they check someone's bs, and i'm just like, "why? why did you handle it like that?". they also seem much more on the lookout to fight another, whereas i'm more content to just do my thing and basically ignore everyone else... we get along very well though, for whatever that's worth (always has been that way with people that i've seen as 8's. we either butt heads and hate each other, or we slowly acquire that sort of "unfiltered camaraderie" that begins with mutual respect and each basically pretending to ignore the other person).
> i can still see 6 as well, maybe even a jaded, more bitter type of 7. but then again, the time period where i thought i was a 6 i basically did not--and for a large part still don't--feel like myself. almost like everything is experienced from under a thin layer of water, muted and dumbed-down, like present reality is more of an echo than it is anything else...
> 
> i don't know if it's significant to typing, but in real life people think i'm just the nicest, sweetest person they've ever met (which i have to laugh internally at. i think all they show with that, is that they don't really know me that well). it's like they assume i've always had this halo around my head, but forgot that they put it there themselves... and i left it, because i like the way it looks, .
> i think it really throws them through a loop whenever i do (rarely--because it's usually just too much of a bother to bite back when i know some idiotic sack of shit is going to get their ego hurt and escalate an 'incident' into something where i'm able to actually able to find temper, as opposed to just being annoyed) become aggressive, because it's gotta be a pretty sharp contrast to what they're used to seeing out of me.
> and i don't even mean to make it sound like i'm some billy-badass douchebag--again, most people see me as easy going and even gentle (which earns me monikers like "awe, Donovan's adorable! aren't you Donovan? you're just so great", kind of similar to how people speak about a dog, like it's not even there lol *throws hands up*; and again, cue the internal laughter or eye roll, and internal this time because i know they think they're giving me a compliment and i don't want to hurt their feelings for doing so)... but, there is a type of anger that other people naturally give a wide berth. and everyone's got it--they really do in fact--but not everyone is in touch with it... probably for the best, going off of other's reactions, cause it seems like they're unnerved, as if someone shouldn't ever respond in such a way, or that something most definitely has to be wrong with me, or like you're a dog that might be potentially dangerous.
> and then there's always the chance someone else wants to be a fucking hero for their little group and "save the day" by calming the situation down, but instead of actually addressing the problem, they just move towards whoever is being the loudest or "scariest" (because "loud noises" scare people apparently, as if they were stupid cattle)--which i would say is a side effect of the existing problem, and you don't treat symptoms lol, you _actually deal with the problem_.
> i would actually say my anger is more of a nuisance, because i'm not the type of person to let something go if i'm actually bothered, but i also don't have the energy to make sure people unconsciously default towards just accepting my behavior by doing the whole "social tough guy"-thing, where they want to befriend you even if you happened to be in the wrong, as opposed to going against you. and people always want to gang up--which i honestly have no problem with, i'll just have that much less remorse after the fact, so in a way they're doing me a favor--but that actually means that i'll have to "cause a scene", have the police called, pay for a lawyer i don't have money for, etc... so, when all i want to do is take someone to the ground and scream and growl in their face, and put the fear of god into them until my tendons are so shot i can't even my open my fists back up and i feel as if i'm about to throw up, all they want to do is impress the people they're with, and i feel certain i'll be the one going to jail afterwards. it's a lose-lose situation. (i don't know lol, maybe i actually do in fact have ptsd, and have just been living with it since i was a child, and none of that is actually "normal human behavior")...
> pre-edit: uggh, sorry, venting...
> 
> 
> but in any case, i feel like, from what i can see, 8's usually want to exert more control over their areas, and so can ironically enough, default towards their social appearance to dissuade and control people... which just seems like waayyyy too much work for me. i'd rather do what i'm going to do and then go out drinking with a few close friends.
> 
> _but_, at this point in my life i just really have no idea. my focus is finding better way to pay my bills before i go back to school, and just trying to get to a point where i don't always feel like shit is falling apart.
> 
> ...and now i'm going to post all of this and grab some taco bell before i can erase it, as some of it is a little embarrassing.




Do you have a type me thread?

My gut feeling is 9w8. 

I did not see the six. I did see trauma and typical young adult fears. 

How do you handle pain? 

How do you solve problems?

What is your biggest fear? physical? emotional?


----------



## Donovan

LeoCat said:


> Do you have a type me thread?
> 
> My gut feeling is 9w8.
> 
> I did not see the six. I did see trauma and typical young adult fears.
> 
> How do you handle pain?
> 
> How do you solve problems?
> 
> What is your biggest fear? physical? emotional?


i don't think i've ever made a thread like that, though i guess i can take a look at one of the questionnaires... trauma i could agree with, lately. i've never really seen it that way until a few years ago. it's hard to even get at why though it's taken so long to see it that way, because whenever i tell people in real life--in a "well if you'd really like to know"-sort of way, because i usually leave everything before i moved off the table--they look horrified and/or surprised, which, of course, is telling in itself (though, it becomes hard to differentiate between whether or not it was "really that bad", or if they just had things disgustingly smooth lol, and by contrast of their own experience they are now "surprised"). 
just to clear things up, i'm not sure what you mean by young adult, but if it helps in typing i'll be 27 pretty soon. don't get me wrong, while i've never really seen myself as a child, i can definitely see/agree with _"childish"_ as being applied to myself (especially when dealing with emotional content--i mean, look at some of my posts in this very thread; i didn't _have_ to say any of those things... but i did). 

i think i handle (physical) pain very well. not to be confused with an insecure, swaggering, arrogant, overly emotional, dick-swinging braggart [as i'm sure i've somehow earned that title on this site, *rolls eyes* lol ], but to use actual examples as to avoid my usual (i'm sure what is) more confusing abstract-speak--which is only used to begin with in order to withhold personal experiences, because there's always going to be someone who views it as bragging, when they do what is natural to humans and begin comparing it (even subconsciously) with their own experiences--i'll just give examples.
and sorry for what's going to seem like a meandering, self-indulgent monologue, but i try to say what i'd like to hear from another person: all the details. so i could--if the roles were reversed--see their perspective, in order to then separate _it_ from what i will see. 

***
* *




i was in bad shape mentally/emotionally, severely underweight (like by 20 lbs)... drinking a lot that night, but still minding my own business--which is what i tend to do when i'm not feeling well, like playing a game of "picking a spot and staring at it mindlessly"--when a friend of my cousin's starts "calling me out", like "i just want to see what you can do"... i don't know what it is, but that is something i've experienced all my life. i think i unconsciously ask for it almost, like ignoring everyone, but doing so in a "i'm wholly unworried by you... which is why i'm ignoring you"-way, which drives guys, especially, crazy (lol). 
i continued to ignore him, got up to take a piss, and he follows me around the pool asking "you scared man?", then pushed me in--which honestly, was kind of a surprise (there went my phone). so i took him up on his offer, cause now i was pretty angry... 
it wasn't anything special, i was pretty weak at the time all things considered, and he had no idea what to do--like a young virginal boy getting his cherry popped--but i didn't take into account that even though he was a little on the short-stocky side, he carried everything deceptively well, and whereas i took him to be about 180, he was more like 230 to my, at the time, emaciated 140 pounds. (seriously, i looked like a walking stick, and could probably exhale smoke whenever i felt, from all the empty packs that littered my car)
i couldn't do much with him, other than use his weight to shift him off balance, then quickly and as violently as possible--again, weakened-state means you have to be "mean"--choke him into submitting (we went over rules before hand to avoid an all out fight and getting the cops called, so submitting was the option to go with if you ever wanted it to end... and honestly, having it end was more important to me at the time, as i really, even not being at my best, didn't see anything to gain beating someone like him). 
i was tired, and tired of him, and did something i shouldn't have. i was losing the ability to maneuver him and he was catching on, so i grabbed him, kneed him in the hip, and threw myself backwards as hard as could, intending to choke him out for the last time underneath all his excessive girth. i was too busy digging my toes into the dirt and trying to use my last little bit of energy to make his shoulder and my own meet through his neck, to hear the loud popping sound. 
the next day it's even hotter than usual, so i take my shirt off to cool off, and everyone points out what looks like a pretty large, darkly bruised scratch under my left pectoral. it seemed fine, but got progressively worse. i nursed it by not moving in ways that hurt, but eventually (and i had taken some time off work for said state) i just laid down all day, trying to prop myself up and find ways that would let me breathe, when finally, after days of moving around it, i felt my ribs and there was a large bump (i was just like, "fuck... fuck... *fuck!*"--i mean, i wouldn't have money for that even if hadn't taken time off, and i sure as hell didn't have insurance, regardless of the newer laws that were in place, and the last thing i wanted to do was ask my grandparents for help, so this can merge with "pain" and "dealing with problems" i guess, and this long ass excerpt can serve a few purposes). 
i eventually had to tell them, because in my mind "being hurt" equals "hospitals/doctors" and that wasn't an option. they gave me the number of a chiropractor. 
i went to him--and he was a very odd guy, lol--very gentle and soothing, low key. he even tried to counsel me a bit (or what i took for 'counseling') by, as he held his hands over me... _feeling my aura(?)_, saying: "sometimes you just have to let stuff go"--and i was incredulous, like "who the fuck do you think you are random ass human being, _who i'm paying to work_, and not to hold a conversation with", but i was also kind of amused because he was right and incredibly perceptive, so i just kind of widened my eyes and grinned, but left it at that... defaulted a bit to say, "... yeah, you're right". 
it all ended with him slamming me into a table, which with my rib being out of place resulted in innumerable pops and cracks... after that, i realized how tired i was of moping so i took my shoes and shirt off, grabbed some water, stuffed some chex-mix in my pockets and went on a ~12-13 mile hike. 
i did this because i did not feel like myself. i felt defeated, humiliated, ashamed of myself for ever even allowing the situation (that caused my more mental/emotional anguish) to occur... so, i wanted to do something difficult, something that worked my body, where i could let out my frustration and anger, just throw myself into it, feel every scrape and bruise, pick off every parasitic and vile fucking tick, run out of water and food, and then have the challenge of completing the return-half of the hike in less time than the first half, to avoid having to sleep in my truck overnight in the reserve/park-thing (needless to say, i pretty much re-injured myself in different ways during this, but none of it required expensive care, and the benefits outweighed the side-effects, so it was a win-win).




so basically, i don't ever want to admit that i was not able to handle something in my own life. if i can't handle it, i'm willing to crawl through mud and shit in order to fix it, because not only was i stupid enough to land myself in that situation and it's all my own doing to begin with, but now i want someone else to bail me out and to then use _their own resources and valuable time_, to "save me"... god it makes me want to scream, and i don't even want to be seen in those moments. 
one more example (i'll try to leave it at two, as this is already an overwhelming length of words and i've yet to even tie anything together in way where all this talk would have a point):

***
* *




i've always been fascinated by weaponry, and cultures that were warlike. even before i met my step-father and things got bad--in other words, before i had chance to "learn better", i already had that mindset. i mean at the age of two (to three?), i remember getting my mom's medical-related books out and finding better ways to draw what would be the inside of a person if they were stabbed, or having my grandfather take me to the library so i could find books that detailed all the different types of weapons through the ages, so i could then have a basis on how to draw even more fantastical types of instruments. i would make my own spears by rubbing them against coarse concrete, or trying to do as i was told and fashion a spear out of wet twine that air dried, a split stick, and my (very precious) arrow heads. 
we moved around a lot, so my mom could avoid my grandparents (refuses to be told what to do, even at the expense of her children--a truly weak human being), and eventually she met the dick that would be "father" for a number of years. 
i was about 3-4 and my brother was about 4-5, though each of us might have been younger just going by the fact that most of our "intense training sessions" took place in the early hours of the morning, and my brother would have had to be at school if he was on the verge of 5, so we'll go with 3 and 4 respectively. 
long story short, we were forced to fight each other on a near constant basis. and i mean fight, if you can imagine a 3 and 4 year old screaming, punching, kneeing, elbowing, biting, headbutting, and trying to use the moves we were taught--whatever we could possibly to hurt one another, because we eventually learned to hate each other. and we actually used to be best friends. 
i remember a story my mom loves to tell because she thinks it's so "cute", where i walk up to my brother who's crying on some steps, put my arm around him, and inform everyone that "he's sad... poor [His Name]... he ain't got no daddy _*pats on back*_"--lol, i guess not realizing that if we're brothers that means the same thing for me, hahahaha. 
things got progressively worse. we became more vicious, would send each other to the hospital--only to have the car break down at 3 o'clock in the morning on a deserted country road, and to have to walk the rest of the way, because the guy in charge was a useless, non-resourceful idiot. 
then we got introduced to the "real world"--other kids. and of course we were way too aggressive--not mean exactly, just primed to actually fight, and even our "play fighting" would make teachers and other parents view us as if we were some kind of insect they found under a decomposing log of wood. he began to go off the deep end, and hasn't stopped even now, and i did my method of coping, which eventually just turned into a lot of self-destructive behavior. 
i didn't like how i was viewed. it felt unclean, or bad, or just in general disgusting and unworthy of just about anything other than being useful for said act. so i tried to be better, i really felt the need to feel like i was something else... so, i just made everyone love me basically, and i was very good at it. but even, it was empty and fake--even at that age, where all i want to do is let the ghetto side of personality out and fucking crush someone, but at the same time i didn't want to be viewed as a monster or something else that is equally terrible, so i felt myself retreating on the one hand, and pouring out with all my force to prove that i wasn't what i unconsciously (i can see that now) saw myself to be: unworthy of kinship, human contact, etc. 
eventually it became way too much, and at about 10-11--when i was probably at the most extreme on every facet of my personality--i started to break. i never wanted to go home, i actually loved being at school (ironically enough), and when i was home i would just play my gameboy in my room or draw, or read as much as possible. i tried to have as little to do with anyone that wasn't my mom (who at the time i still loved). 
then i started to feel a feeling i had once when i was about 5. a feeling of supreme emptiness, like everything was wrong somehow in a way that i just couldn't put my finger on... that feeling back then, at age 5, was quickly squashed by not moving quickly enough to get ready for school, so to stop my crying i was picked up by the throat and slammed repeatedly into the wall, naked, until i just quit making any sound at all (i feel the need while writing this to say that i did get him back--for that, and for slapping me repeatedly with force when i failed to perform a series of convoluted moves along the strip tape that separated my side of the bedroom from my brothers... 
he was in a good mood, so we were play fighting, and i pretended to be tired and brought my leg up to my chest [we were laying down], he dropped his hands, and i landed the heel of my foot as hard as i fucking in the middle of his face--broke the shit of nose, blood everywhere, and at that point i couldn't even pretend it was an accident like i had planned to do, because i was laughing so hard there was no possible way to lie... sigh, the good 'ol days... not really, ). 
in any case, this feeling led to emptiness, which lead suicidal thoughts. i remember feeling emptier and emptier as the light faded and it became dark, and then i'd have to go to my bed and lay down with nothing but self. 
i'd stay up for hours, either crying or just staring into what i felt. seeing images of my kitchen at night, lit by whatever moon was in my imagination, and what that looked like as it shown on the knives in the far left drawer... or how a fridge only has so much oxygen within it, and if i just took the time to take everything out, there'd be room inside for me. 
so i basically fought with myself and very severe depression for a very long time, until i found i could construct stories, or go over things that happened in the day, to instead make myself angry, as anger was preferable to that morbid sense of void. 
i never told anyone, other than an ex and my roommate. even then i hated that people could see that i wasn't okay. i felt violated by their perception, to my core, so i would deny it, or just go into a rage if they pressed. kind of like, "oh really you stupid fucking kunt...? you want to see this real fast...? huh...? cause i'll fucking show it to you, alright. you can have _all of it_--*right this fucking second!*"... and then they'd usually drop it, and then i could go back to forgetting it--or really i never forgot it, it was always there on the edge of my awareness, but i could still try to put enough distance between it and i, to the point where i could feel something else for a short while. 
i was constantly fighting (verbal and/or physical). or looking to hurt, or dominate, anyone who slighted me in the least bit, but then tried to make up for it by being a "good person" in some way; finding something i could love and be good to. (one part unacknowledged bully, one part "savior")
the depression eventually just stopped somehow, and things were better. but then i became even more self-destructive as it was replaced by something else altogether (like, i don't know what replaced it, it's almost like a gigantic blank spot in my psyche). and then i started to feel even more unlike myself... 
i used to be gregarious, fun-loving, always on the move, i felt connected to what was around me, even when things were terrible. that point of connection would just be anger at the very least, but at about 18--the time i moved to a different state--i just started to sink into myself, and i didn't, and still don't, feel even that sense of anger that connects me to the world (i would say the lower form or version of myself--hence "seeing everything as if under a layer of water, like the world is just an echo from something that passed me by already". 
i'm starting to reconnect with my anger, which is skewing my thoughts (can't really call them attempts) to find my type. i feel like i may be going backwards along that spectrum, but now with... _more knowledge?_


 

in any case, physical pain i can handle like no other. if it catches me off guard (like cutting myself with the exact same bread knife at work, in the exact same place, on the exact same finger, i'll probably exclaim and talk shit to the knife--because that makes so much sense, right?--or loudly go off how it's so fucking stupid that in a place like where i work, we have something so incredibly shitty, that it boggles my goddamn mind... till i catch myself, realize how dumb i'm being, and just bandage it up), i'll raise a noise, but really it's emotional pain that is nearly unbearable to deal with. 
i think it's so hard because i found a way to turn it into a bastardized form of it's truer nature, and in doing so robbed myself of the chance to actually work with it and grow from it. anger is okay, but emotional anguish is debilitating, and one of the few ways to compensate for it is to find some part of the world to blast, but even then, it's uncalled for in reality (not all parts of the world though, or even all sectors of the u.s., mind you)...
and as i write this, i didn't even realize i felt that way, and i especially would have been ignorant of it when i was younger (i would have blamed the other person for being such a dumbass, and fought tooth and nail at everyone who would have defended him/her, because there are "obvious reasons for why i'm angry--it has nothing to do with me--again, this person is just an idiot who doesn't know better yet"/etc.)... 

but even now i have no idea what to do with any of that. no way i can afford counseling, and no way i'm asking a counselor to cut me a deal (i mean, _that is how they make their money_)... and i've almost cried a dozen times (and silently screamed while clenching my fist, all ending with a quick shake of my head and snapping of teeth--silent because my dog's next to me and he's already a skittish mess from his previous owner) while writing this self-indulgent novella, and i... _*holds hands up*_ don't even know why.
maybe it ties back into--and this is probably the hardest--into the fact that, like i was when younger, a part of me stopped growing and i never acknowledged it. the part of me that could consciously sympathize with myself--i wanted to tamp that down--and other people knowing about me, or even worse, feeling bad for me, was getting me closer to then viewing myself in that same light (?), and that would have been catastrophic at the time, because refusing to just that was what was holding me together to begin with(?). (or so i believed, i swear, it's like a part of my mind does things for me, scremps parts away--even my anger if that's what's needed and i've yet consciously realize it)
it might also explain why i want to take people who hurt animals, or who are mean to young kids, and just fucking rip them apart. take all this dark, damp, slimy ugliness and let it coalesce around them, slip down into their throats, and choke them from their insides, _outward_--and then just rip their fucking heads from their bodies and, while everyone else is staring in shock and horror, i want to try and convince them that this is in fact now a light-hearted occasion, one where we can dance gleefully in all that raining blood ["seriously y'all, i know how this looks but it's all good now, i promise. you can trust me, . lets dance! _*waves head around as i begin to dance awkwardly, because i cannot and never*_"]. 

and even while writing about not wanting to be seen in that way, or having myself acknowledge it, my mental defense was to remember something pretty horrific i wrote earlier in this little synopsis, and to make it even worse--even darker... i find that telling of a mental mechanism...). 

okay, i have stuff i have to do, i feel as if i covered what you asked and then some (probably said wayyyyy too much, but oh well, i want this to be authentic), and have been writing for over four hours... i have never let anyone see this, for very obvious reasons: "you're a terrible human being, _*whaa-fucking-whaa*_/etc." 
(i mean, where does this fit into the scheme of things? it's made me think that i should have a "different" sort of job. after i get my licensure i want to travel to areas, not where i exactly have to fight--i'm not looking to live out my childhood--but where that sort of mentality is actually necessary and maybe even valued)


----------



## hal0hal0

Kintsugi said:


> LOL, this thread never fails to amuse xD












Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!



Kintsugi said:


> On a more serious note; @_Blue Flare_, I'm sticking with 1-fix for now. Heart-fix confuses the hell out of me.


I don't really care for enneagram too much anymore, but I agree with you as a 1-fix... Typology discussions on PerC in general I kinda avoid these days. I think my tolerance for them has really gone down; it can too often feel like an Abbott and Costello routine or a Sesame Street episode or alphabet soup:










Maybe I'm a 1, or a 2, or a 3, or a 4, or a 5, or a 6, or a 7, or an 8, or a 9. WHOOAAA... Doesn't the Count look kinda like Claudio Naranjo? 

And I'm being somewhat facetious. I think there is legitimacy to the logos of the theories, but I feel like people just rationalize away everything through rose-colored glasses or through anecdotal evidence.

^I think there's a vanity component to typology in spite of people insisting they "don't care about their type." I'm projecting Ofc, but I consider that partially due to Generation Y (and possibly X/Z as well), and the "hipster" generation...

I care about _appearing_ to not care. Oh the irony. 

And that is where the Forer effect criticisms of enneagram do have legitimacy I think, is that, as @Paradigm mentioned, there is the tendency to ascribe everything as explainable through the typology system. "Aw yeah, that's my w3 acting up." It's when the anecdotal becomes "revelation". I wouldn't say the enneagram is totally hogwash, but I don't think it explains very much (reality is far too chaotic for that) and there's too much fluff.

I consider enneagram similar to how one might think of carjack... a useful tool for when you have a flat tire, but... well, most the time, you can run just fine without it. It is specifically to describe when one is stuck in a rut or a repetitious pattern of self-defeat... the notion that only type 4 self-defeats I don't really agree with. All types shoot themselves in the foot (I'd say that is central to the theory), the focus is just different.

My own perspective is that there is too much focus on how types appear and how they objectively "are" whereas I consider them as I would character outlooks... thus, I tend to favor cutting out the middle-man entirely and going straight to the stories and characters themselves. The direct fiction itself, rather than "grafting" the typology system on top of that. 

Which is, perhaps, an inferior Te thing. Categories and definitions rather annoy me or... perhaps I have just been becoming increasingly nihilistic as time goes on.


----------



## HellCat

Donovan said:


> in any case, physical pain i can handle like no other. if it catches me off guard (like cutting myself with the exact same bread knife at work, in the exact same place, on the exact same finger, i'll probably exclaim and talk shit to the knife--because that makes so much sense, right?--or loudly go off how it's so fucking stupid that in a place like where i work, we have something so incredibly shitty, that it boggles my goddamn mind... till i catch myself, realize how dumb i'm being, and just bandage it up), i'll raise a noise, but really it's emotional pain that is nearly unbearable to deal with.
> i think it's so hard because i found a way to turn it into a bastardized form of it's truer nature, and in doing so robbed myself of the chance to actually work with it and grow from it. anger is okay, but emotional anguish is debilitating, and one of the few ways to compensate for it is to find some part of the world to blast, but even then, it's uncalled for in reality (not all parts of the world though, or even all sectors of the u.s., mind you)...
> and as i write this, i didn't even realize i felt that way, and i especially would have been ignorant of it when i was younger (i would have blamed the other person for being such a dumbass, and fought tooth and nail at everyone who would have defended him/her, because there are "obvious reasons for why i'm angry--it has nothing to do with me--again, this person is just an idiot who doesn't know better yet"/etc.)...
> 
> but even now i have no idea what to do with any of that. no way i can afford counseling, and no way i'm asking a counselor to cut me a deal (i mean, _that is how they make their money_)... and i've almost cried a dozen times (and silently screamed while clenching my fist, all ending with a quick shake of my head and snapping of teeth--silent because my dog's next to me and he's already a skittish mess from his previous owner) while writing this self-indulgent novella, and i... _*holds hands up*_ don't even know why.
> maybe it ties back into--and this is probably the hardest--into the fact that, like i was when younger, a part of me stopped growing and i never acknowledged it. the part of me that could consciously sympathize with myself--i wanted to tamp that down--and other people knowing about me, or even worse, feeling bad for me, was getting me closer to then viewing myself in that same light (?), and that would have been catastrophic at the time, because refusing to just that was what was holding me together to begin with(?). (or so i believed, i swear, it's like a part of my mind does things for me, scremps parts away--even my anger if that's what's needed and i've yet consciously realize it)
> it might also explain why i want to take people who hurt animals, or who are mean to young kids, and just fucking rip them apart. take all this dark, damp, slimy ugliness and let it coalesce around them, slip down into their throats, and choke them from their insides, _outward_--and then just rip their fucking heads from their bodies and, while everyone else is staring in shock and horror, i want to try and convince them that this is in fact now a light-hearted occasion, one where we can dance gleefully in all that raining blood ["seriously y'all, i know how this looks but it's all good now, i promise. you can trust me, . lets dance! _*waves head around as i begin to dance awkwardly, because i cannot and never*_"].
> 
> and even while writing about not wanting to be seen in that way, or having myself acknowledge it, my mental defense was to remember something pretty horrific i wrote earlier in this little synopsis, and to make it even worse--even darker... i find that telling of a mental mechanism...).
> 
> okay, i have stuff i have to do, i feel as if i covered what you asked and then some (probably said wayyyyy too much, but oh well, i want this to be authentic), and have been writing for over four hours... i have never let anyone see this, for very obvious reasons: "you're a terrible human being, _*whaa-fucking-whaa*_/etc."
> (i mean, where does this fit into the scheme of things? it's made me think that i should have a "different" sort of job. after i get my licensure i want to travel to areas, not where i exactly have to fight--i'm not looking to live out my childhood--but where that sort of mentality is actually necessary and maybe even valued)



I cut out a lot in my quote in case you want to delete it. Judging by these words you feel like a gut type to me. Not a six. Severe trauma can make people look sixish but nowhere do I see a need for security. 

I don't think a number even matters. What matters is how much you have overcome and the wisdom you have gotten from it and that you are still a compassionate and empathic human being who wants to protect innocents. 

Despite all of that pain. 

It would have turned lesser people into criminals, wife beaters, child abusers, etc. 

I understand not wanting to see a counselor. I was reluctant myself considering I would have ended up locked up the minute some things that were true but seem insane were revealed. So I did the next best thing and started nurturing my inner child like I was the parent. Writing myself letters and finally being willing to face yes I had been a victim but that was not my identity and never would be by acknowledging it. 

I think if you don't acknowledge it, the little child in you is left angry and wondering why you are lying to it. Time does heal it as long as you are willing to face it. It is much braver to face your anger and talk to yourself at least about it.. to ask questions and answer them. To write it out until the venom is purged from your system.


People who refuse to face it or only want to think of "the future" and nice things.. they end up poisoned for life.

I think you are very brave. 

Thank you for sharing and anything else that comes to mind. I am always willing to listen.

I hope your day was okay after opening up that way. 

You might like the brene brown book I linked earlier in the thread a few pages back. 

Its about being vulnerable and human connection. A favorite of mine.

I really hope this was cathartic for you to utter some of these secrets and emotions and you go away feeling a bit lighter.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_hal0hal0_

Hilarious. I was so going to post a Jerry Springer gif as well, haha! xD

I struggle to take Enneagram seriously (mainly because of what I see around these subforums). When I'm bored I come back to this forum from time to time to see if I can make any more sense out of it, but nothing ever changes here, it seems (although the drama is kinda addictive, like a bad soap opera, lol). 



> And I'm being somewhat facetious. I think there is legitimacy to the logos of the theories, but I feel like people just rationalize away everything through rose-colored glasses or through anecdotal evidence.
> 
> ^I think there's a vanity component to typology in spite of people insisting they "don't care about their type." I'm projecting Ofc, but I consider that partially due to Generation Y (and possibly X/Z as well), and the "hipster" generation...
> 
> I care about _appearing to not care. Oh the irony. _


I also think there is something more to it but I've given up trying to find the answers in this place, lol. I agree that there is a lot of rationalization that goes on and I've always found anecdotal evidence hard to stomach. I wondered if it might be a Si vs Ni clash thing, idk. Generally, when I ask for feedback on my type, I'm not interested so much in what people observe superficially about my behaviour; I'm actually looking for someone to help me understand the underlying concepts and archetypes, to help me "connect-the-dots", because THAT's what I struggle with the most (yay, Ni-inferior!) I'm probably not very clear on that though...

Yeah, there is totally a vanity component to typology- I'm guilty of that at times, haha! _"Please, somebody...please stroke my ego!"_ This thread is a GREAT place to get that kind of validation. :3 













> And that is where the Forer effect criticisms of enneagram do have legitimacy I think, is that, as @_Paradigm__ mentioned, there is the tendency to ascribe everything as explainable through the typology system. "Aw yeah, that's my w3 acting up." It's when the anecdotal becomes "revelation". I wouldn't say the enneagram is totally hogwash, but I don't think it explains very much (reality is far too chaotic for that) and there's too much fluff._


I agree. The "fluff" is a real turn-off for me.



> _*I consider enneagram similar to how one might think of carjack... a useful tool for when you have a flat tire, but... well, most the time, you can run just fine without it. It is specifically to describe when one is stuck in a rut or a repetitious pattern of self-defeat... the notion that only type 4 self-defeats I don't really agree with. All types shoot themselves in the foot (I'd say that is central to the theory), the focus is just different.*_
> 
> My own perspective is that there is too much focus on how types appear and how they objectively "are" whereas I consider them as I would character outlooks... thus, I tend to favor cutting out the middle-man entirely and going straight to the stories and characters themselves. The direct fiction itself, rather than "grafting" the typology system on top of that.
> 
> Which is, perhaps, an inferior Te thing. Categories and definitions rather annoy me or... perhaps I have just been becoming increasingly nihilistic as time goes on.


So far, (referring to the bold), this has been my experience of trying to "use" Enneagram to help myself. I like the idea of seeing the symbol as being in perpetual motion. I think part of the issue is that a lot of people see it as "static" when really it's more fluid/dynamic than that (just like humans are). Honestly, I really don't know how to explain myself (lol) but I like a lot of the information/ideas that people like @_cir_ share about Enneagram. It, kind of, intuitively makes more sense to me.

I pretty much agree with everything you say here. :rockon:

EDIT: I think if I wasn't such a Ni-whore I'd probably be way too focused on everything being "objective," concentrating too much on surface-level observations (and I fall into that trap at times). This is probably why I suck at typing in general because doing so is my strong-point; I'm not so great with the more abstract/subjective stuff.


----------



## mushr00m

Did I miss something? Damn. Well I be off then with me buckets n spades...


----------



## d e c a d e n t

mushr00m said:


> Did I miss something? Damn. Well I be off then with me buckets n spades...


What


----------



## Slagasauras

GhostShadow said:


> Yay, somebody who understands!
> 
> How do you think that manifests in an introvert, though? I like that idea, as if there are two separate entities floating beneath a murky surface waiting to re-emerge at anytime. I know I started to take myself more seriously, as well as responsibilities at around that period, but I'm not sure. I was never that successful at it, partially because I had no sense of self-worth.
> 
> but then lately, I simply just feel like I'm just an alien at this point in time, that doesn't really relate to anything. I'm just warping, and shifting, in and out of time, through alternate dimensions. Time periods, never really sure where I'm going to end up.
> 
> Oh, hello there, Sir. I have gone through the motions, to these intervals of human social interactions and pre-defined expectations. Ker-bllaaah.
> 
> 
> Phaaasing-in and out of-space
> 
> Forever lost, in the space-time continum
> like Fido without a bone
> 
> Space is not the final frontier; but something much less climatic.



...Is that Rush Limbaugh?


----------



## Dalton

I can see Sx 7 quietly sneaking up on us.


----------



## mushr00m

Shame Spiral said:


> What


Ho ho ho!!!


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Slagasauras said:


> ...Is that Rush Limbaugh?


He is my new favorite Pokemon' :joyous:


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Here I made a better version:


----------



## Figure

Donovan said:


> i can still see 6 as well, maybe even a jaded, more bitter type of 7. but then again, the time period where i thought i was a 6 i basically did not--and for a large part still don't--feel like myself. almost like everything is experienced from under a thin layer of water, muted and dumbed-down, like present reality is more of an echo than it is anything else...
> 
> i don't know if it's significant to typing, but in real life people think i'm just the nicest, sweetest person they've ever met (which i have to laugh internally at. i think all they show with that, is that they don't really know me that well). it's like they assume i've always had this halo around my head, but forgot that they put it there themselves... and i left it, because i like the way it looks, .
> 
> i think it really throws them through a loop whenever i do (rarely--because it's usually just too much of a bother to bite back when i know some idiotic sack of shit is going to get their ego hurt and escalate an 'incident' into something where i'm able to actually able to find temper, as opposed to just being annoyed) become aggressive, because it's gotta be a pretty sharp contrast to what they're used to seeing out of me.
> and i don't even mean to make it sound like i'm some billy-badass douchebag--again, most people see me as easy going and even gentle (which earns me monikers like "awe, Donovan's adorable! aren't you Donovan? you're just so great", kind of similar to how people speak about a dog, like it's not even there lol *throws hands up*; and again, cue the internal laughter or eye roll, and internal this time because i know they think they're giving me a compliment and i don't want to hurt their feelings for doing so)... but, there is a type of anger that other people naturally give a wide berth.


For what it's worth, I've always felt that Self Pres 6, possibly 6w5, fits you pretty well. 

Although I totally get what you're saying about anger and obviously haven't met you in person to really get a tangible sense, types 1 and 8 don't just have anger, they actually fixate/constellate (to use Maitri's word) a defensive structure around it. It's not so much an offshoot reaction or a rarity for them as it is a core emotion that becomes an ongoing habit pretty much every day. What you wrote is more than enough evidence that you are aware of your own anger (as are 1's and 8's) - but I don't get a sense that it has a central role in how you have developed a self-identification. For 8's there's the ongoing sense of having been tampered with or meddled, and getting revenge, and identifying as being powerful; for 1's, an ongoing sense that something is wrong, making it what it should have been before, and identifying as being right. 

What you wrote sounds more to me more like a cynicism towards how others respond to your demeanor, mixed feelings to how you may react in a situation where you're wronged, and maybe even a bit of mistrust of your own capacity/what would happen if you _did_ let things out. 

Definitely let me know if that's overstepping things or misinterpreting - but if you really would like to go more into your type, I think you've provided a lot of good information here that doesn't appear to have been tainted by what's written in type descriptions, and could be worked into a type.


----------



## ShadowsRunner




----------



## ShadowsRunner

No one loves Limbaugh-mon


----------



## Kito

@_Swordsman of Mana_ could you elaborate a little why you think I'm w5? Been meaning to ask for a while and eh, I'm curious.


----------



## Donovan

Figure said:


> For what it's worth, I've always felt that Self Pres 6, possibly 6w5, fits you pretty well.
> 
> Although I totally get what you're saying about anger and obviously haven't met you in person to really get a tangible sense, types 1 and 8 don't just have anger, they actually fixate/constellate (to use Maitri's word) a defensive structure around it. It's not so much an offshoot reaction or a rarity for them as it is a core emotion that becomes an ongoing habit pretty much every day. What you wrote is more than enough evidence that you are aware of your own anger (as are 1's and 8's) - but I don't get a sense that it has a central role in how you have developed a self-identification. For 8's there's the ongoing sense of having been tampered with or meddled, and getting revenge, and identifying as being powerful; for 1's, an ongoing sense that something is wrong, making it what it should have been before, and identifying as being right.
> 
> What you wrote sounds more to me more like a cynicism towards how others respond to your demeanor, mixed feelings to how you may react in a situation where you're wronged, and maybe even a bit of mistrust of your own capacity/what would happen if you _did_ let things out.
> 
> Definitely let me know if that's overstepping things or misinterpreting - but if you really would like to go more into your type, I think you've provided a lot of good information here that doesn't appear to have been tainted by what's written in type descriptions, and could be worked into a type.


at this point in my life it's actually really hard to tell. i do feel as if i walk around with a lot of anger, but i also feel as if it revolves more around actually _wanting_ to let it out--like, it's there, but it has to build before the other person's feelings matter so little that i'll hurt them with it (it should also be noted that i'm not the most self-aware person there ever was, and that it may take some wheedling to get this down to something finer)... 
and even then it's not done strictly to hurt them, but because i'm just displaying exactly what it is that i feel in the moment, and that my feelings are usually tied to where i want things to go, and... _how_ i want them to go(?).
kind of like seeing that someone has brought some nearly invisible, amorphous shape out in the form of their own will, measuring about 1 and a half, and i can see that i now and have to expand my own to be at least 2 and a half feet to smother or encircle their own, to move where i want, and to... as selfish as it sounds, feel the way i want to feel. 
to me, there are many different forms and versions of anger--from frustration that someone isn't going fast enough down the highway, but still insists on using the far left lane, as if they are oblivious to the fact that they are not the only person in existence (and i picture them as some bleary-eyed idiot who's stuffing their face and attempting to read even simple language on their phone, as they crawl along accidentally ignoring all the blaring horns), all the way to feeling it prodded when i feel that someone has overstepped a line, and that line is now in need of being moved back to the medium it should have _always_ been at it (and actually _was_ at before that person acted)... 
in which case, my anger allows me to steel myself from my own bad feelings _about_ myself--that i will likely have anyway--in order to move that line back, which, in some cases (depends on the person/situation), means that i will now have to hurt them a bit... 
sometimes it feels completely justified, and other times i'll kind of beat myself up about it (though, i doubt that is a part anyone will ever see), and then try to be better the next time, because a feeling of emptiness can easily settle within. 

and i think the need to be "better than my own darkness" is kind of what allows people to see me as "gentle" and "loving" and even "cute/adorable", because i can so easily rip myself apart--i mean, what i may do to others is nowhere near as bad as what i do to myself on a constant basis... so, i try to make up for it in a way. or try to foster something good if i can see potential for it in my environment. 
and so, if i feel someone's smarting off, but i can tell they're really just kind of a weak person, i see it as beneath me (if i'm healthy, minus the "blood lust"/wanting to more or less unload) to give them a piece of what i feel, or to even waste my time tangling with them in the first place in an "_you_ aren't worth my damn time... but again, being unhealthy and resigning oneself to the fact that i'm a useless and a piece of shit anyhow, i can break down those barriers; re: 'blood lust', as when i'm not doing well, i just want to explode and waste all that energy by destroying, instead of building up and being warm... 
so cycles of 'BS' [lol, it might as well be too], and seeking to prove to myself that i am not truly that person... and now i know that's spot on, because again, like in my earlier post, this is not only making me feel badly for myself in such a way that is truly negative, but is allowing me to sympathize with a problem of my own--to sympathize healthily with myself--and i can already feel those sweet, sweet tears, lol... not truly, but what amounts to the same feeling i spoke of in an earlier post. 

and maybe that's the most key part about it: none of us are necessarily what others see us to be, nor are we what we see ourselves to be, but our perception--whether it falls in line with that of others', or that of others' falls in line with that of our's--can be molded within a moment, and all it takes is making yourself okay with using that fuel (anger) in order to go about molding... though, i guess the flip side of that would be instilling something positive within a person in the form of a time when that anger just becomes a solidness, like, "*no*, you _are_, _fucking_, awesome--*period*", if i feel they are falling a little and we are close like that. 

i mean, i don't feel as if i have a good grasp on my own self-conception (for a number of reasons; you can find them in my post before this one), and it's never really made sense to me that people really ever would. not that it's trivial for them to, but i just see it differently.
when i was about 8-9, my cousin that i was visiting was really into the whole "social thing" (removed from enneagram, i take it) and asked me, "so, like, at your school, what are you?! like, are you a skater, or are you preppy, cause i can't really tell by the way you're dressed" [lol! i dress pretty plainly as far as jeans/tee-shirt, black shoes, dark/earth colors, with the only flair being a thin rope-like necklace that i can tighten and loosen at will], to which i responded, "uh, hahaha... _human?_. is that an option? i'm just me i guess _*then floundered at words to express this*_". 
so, not even seeing reality in such a way as to know where i'd have a conception of myself--because i do kind of view myself as being slightly removed from other people, for better or worse (and i can then choose to step in when i see someone/something that really sparks my fancy; happens more often when healthy)--it's hard for me to then go, "sure, i'm reactive", or "no Figure, that doesn't fit", because i think it's so hard to quantify a person, especially from their own point of view (saying what is/quantifying the world (non-egotistically , or what i believe to be "right" [not a word i like using right now as i feel it'll be too conflated with ennea-speak], sure--quantifying myself, not so easy, because at the end of the day i'm left with a question and not an answer: "how and why?"... again, it's my lack of understanding that gives me that perspective, not because i see anything wrong with it). 

through the eyes of others i could tell you that people think i'm nice, or that i'm a condescending, far-too intense dick who has emotional problems; that they believe me to be lazy/not really caring about what they see as necessary within a situation, or that i always do the right thing and can be counted on to get it done--that i'm not aggressive but am instead more fatherly/brotherly/helpful/uplifting towards others, or that i'm unnecessarily harsh and demanding, too curt, or to quick to lose my temper when they didn't understand something/failed to move quickly enough. 
i know that others in positions of authority usually like and see value within me (unless we dislike each other), that they are quick to move me up or to give me a wider berth in decision making at times--or at the very least, they will always cut me wayyyy too much slack (which i have a tendency to run away with when unhealthy; just today i had to go in and let my manager know why i didn't show up for shift on sunday... cause i was still way too drunk when i woke up 3 hours late for said shift... he just said not to worry about it, that everyone gets three strikes and that he and everyone else thought i was in jail [lol... i think]--but the thing is that others have been fired on the spot and told to never bother applying again... all of this just made me feel worse. i'd kind of rather have been yelled at, met his "amorphous energy" with enough of my own to make sure i wouldn't be backed up by it, and then accepted that he was right... and all of this happened on the day when i just decided to not go into my other job, but i've already put in my two weeks notice and this is a place that treats it's management like shit, and it's underlings as if they were very unintelligent children... they actually expected me to get on my walky-talky and ask permission to use the bathroom, when the staff outnumbered the customers in this corporately owned bookstore--i _hate_ the corporate mindset; it's like they are all playacting to a version of reality that doesn't truly exist, all for their own profit, with a shit-rolls-down-hill-mentality + fuck-the-person-beneath-me attitude towards life... lol, yeah _sure_, i'll ask someones permission before i do one of the most natural damn things in the universe: _"go fuck yourselves"_... but anyway, 3 jobs was just too much anyhow, and was only to work towards differing point of leverage, which i can feel getting closer). 

like i said initially, i can still 6 for myself, somewhere if we're going to apply tritype theory (as i think it'd definitely be my head center, though with as much as i know about enneagram, i guess i'd have to default towards everything in every center lol)--if not, and i am a 6, then i think all the manuals and ideas about _"what a 6 is"_ need to be fully re-written (i kind of get the feeling almost all texts are going to be flawed drastically, especially when people are involved, and intellectual blowjobs are so common in their efforts to parrot another human being's conception of reality, regarding something as complex as the human mind). 
i do have a reactive, more emotionally driven side to my personality.. reactive much more when i'm not doing as well as i should be; lol, even a bit hateful really. kind of like not having any direction and instead just moving in one direction because it feels good to be moving, and then delighting in the crash, and then picking another...?

but then again, i think i've been unhealthy most of my life, and have had that "gut feeling-ness" leave and return, so i don't know what my current mental stability really entails.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Kito said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_ could you elaborate a little why you think I'm w5? Been meaning to ask for a while and eh, I'm curious.


your energy is much more stable, less "mental noise" and more "guarded against outsiders" as opposed to "laughable ball of nervousness" (alternatively, they can be batshit crazy, which you aren't either). there is a seriousness and detached quality I don't see in a lot of 6w7s.


----------



## Donovan

GhostShadow said:


> Here I made a better version:
> 
> View attachment 344778


lol, oh my god. that's gotta be one of the creepiest things i've ever seen.


----------



## o0india0o

Swordsman of Mana said:


> your energy is much more stable, less "mental noise" and more "guarded against outsiders" as opposed to "laughable ball of nervousness" (alternatively, they can be *batshit crazy*, which you aren't either). there is a seriousness and detached quality I don't see in a lot of 6w7s.


(lol) @ "batshit crazy"

I strangely view that as a compliment. :highly_amused:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

o0india0o said:


> (lol) @ "batshit crazy"
> 
> I strangely view that as a compliment. :highly_amused:


I said that about 6w7, not 7w6.


----------



## o0india0o

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I said that about 6w7, not 7w6.


I know; I am aware.

I simply meant (in my mind) that would be a compliment. Similar to how you make the argument that your descriptions of Type 2's being prideful, seducers or manipulators (or what have you - - I cannot remember the specific/exact adjectives) is a compliment in your mind.

Similar concept.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

o0india0o said:


> I know; I am aware.
> 
> I simply meant (in my mind) that would be a compliment. Similar to how you make the argument that your descriptions of Type 2's being prideful, seducers or manipulators (or what have you - - I cannot remember the specific/exact adjectives) is a compliment in your mind.
> 
> Similar concept.


fair enough. I also tend to associate batshit crazy with Sx dom, so I guess it could apply to us :laughing:


----------



## Pelopra

Here for my biannual checkup. 

Still pretty sure I'm a 6 although I've been seeing 7 more lately, for good and for bad (i'm getting so habituated to running from responsibilities I'm starting to forget how not to) 

As for instincts, the more i learn the more confused and uncertain I feel. I'm definitely not so-first, that parts easy - social networks are relevant to me, but not to the point of fixation. I'm not sure whether that makes SO my middle or last. 

I match the 6 sp subtype, but remove subtype from the picture and I match sx more. 

As for gut-fix: anger makes me uncomfortable, so I thought nine, but I feel a touch too... Well, I'm not confrontational and I will back out of fights at first opportunity, but I have a lot of strong preferences and minus a confrontation I can be reasonably assertive. I guess 9 as fix still fits best though. 

As for heart fix to this day I still don't really get any of them. Indeed I've been wondering if some theory has been developed of which centers find which other centers most difficultto comprehend.


----------



## Dalton

Pelopra said:


> I match the 6 sp subtype, but remove subtype from the picture and I match sx more.


As per my notes on Beatrice Chestnut, Sp 6 is liable to type oneself as "Sx" separately from 6.



Dalton said:


> *Type 6:*Sp-6: flight, actively fearful, needs a guardian/supporter and can be mistaken for "Sx" due to having a strong interpersonal bond, doubtful.
> 
> Soc-6: more certain, looks to authority (could be a person, system, science, etc.), hates ambiguity, legalistic, phobic and counterphobic expression/features, "1 or 3-ish"
> 
> Sx-6: counterphobic, "8-ish", offense is best defense, toward danger, aggressive.​


----------



## Animal

Dalton said:


> As per my notes on Beatrice Chestnut, Sp 6 is liable to type oneself as "Sx" separately from 6.


 @Pelopra,
I can vouch for this - I know an Sp/Sx 6 who, at first, I thought was the MOST SX PERSON i ever met.. even made me question if I was really an Sx dom. Til I knew him better. But theres no question of sp/sx 6 for him


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> @_Pelopra_,
> I can vouch for this - I know an Sp/Sx 6 who, at first, I thought was the MOST SX PERSON i ever met.. even made me question if I was really an Sx dom. Til I knew him better. But theres no question of sp/sx 6 for him


why


----------



## Animal

Shame Spiral said:


> why


WHy what?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> WHy what?


why did he seem so sx? I guess sp 6s can be clingy as fuck?


----------



## Lustghost

Beatrice Chestnut's description of a sexual 5 feels 100% like me, I started thinking I might be a 5w4 instead of a 4w5. I also couldn't relate much to the descriptions of each instinctual variant of 4s. I feel a bit awkward writing here, cause I'm pretty much a stranger on the forums and it's hard for me to talk about myself. Sometimes I feel like the way I interpret my feelings/thinking is wrong because I'm never sure if I entirely understand myself. That's why I'm so interested in enneagram and MBTI. I'm curious and wanna know the reason for some of my actions/words/feelings that often confuse me. The psychological trigger for it, something like that.


----------



## mushr00m

Shame Spiral said:


> why did he seem so sx? I guess sp 6s can be clingy as fuck?


It's more complicated than that. It's a bit more push pull dynamics.


----------



## Animal

Shame Spiral said:


> why did he seem so sx? I guess sp 6s can be clingy as fuck?


Extremely intense, tons of mental energy, forthright and aggressive, excessively focused on love interest, etc.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

mushr00m said:


> It's more complicated than that. It's a bit more push pull dynamics.


Partly a joke. I'm thinking of how sp 6s often are portrayed, which sounds like it has the potential to be clingy.



Animal said:


> Extremely intense, tons of mental energy, forthright and aggressive, excessively focused on love interest, etc.


Well I was thinking, why _do _​they have such excessive focus on the love interest


----------



## Pelopra

Animal said:


> Extremely intense, tons of mental energy, forthright and aggressive, excessively focused on love interest, etc.


What kind of intense?


----------



## ShadowsRunner

It's not just "love" though, is it? it's 'object' of desire, as well./


----------



## Animal

Pelopra said:


> What kind of intense?


Industrious, constantly thinking, aggressive, arguing... anything i can think of, really. Endless energy for physical feats as well. The list is too long.. haha. The only person on earth I could think of who could possibly keep up with that is another six. But that would be a disaster, putting two of those in a room together..eep


----------



## mushr00m

crappy, no sense post.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Animal said:


> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_
> 
> I would vote 9 for you. I've seen 9ish themes and also noticed a "vibe."
> I will provide more specifics when I can, if you want.


I should have known 

Go ahead.


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I should have known


 

Is that bad? 



> Go ahead.


Okie.. I am not always good at explaining or "breaking down" what I see, but I will try..




ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Heh, I wrote a thing yesterday mentioning that I frequently fantasize about learning some skill or doing some cool thing and gaining recognition for it.


Fours are image types and want to be "seen" too, but the main fear is of insignificance. All their lives the 4 built up defense patterns around the idea of creating a significant identity, skills or 'things' that have MEANING whether they are 'cool' or not. This particular thought is why I often associate 9s with randomness. It's like they come up with seemingly "random" things, things that are not necessarily meaningful in the depths of their soul, but seem to spring up from nowhere to draw attention to them. It's the hidden line to 3.. secretly wanting recognition for something, just wanting the recognition.. and the fantasy of recognition is so appealing. Whereas with 4s, the fantasy of expression and being seen for what you really are is appealing. Although 4s can lose "who they really are" in the act of building up an identity that they feel is meaningful, whereas 9s are more "naked." It seems to me that to grow, 4s need to break down their own constructions to get to the crux (and they spend their whole lives doing that to figure out "what is different about me?" "why am I cut from a different cloth than anyone else?") whereas 9s need to BUILD UP more skills, more meaning, more constructions. Because they are most aware of what is human about them, the stuff of their true spirit (love...etc)..whereas a lot of other things beyond "the moment" seem superficial or meaningless. So instead of slowly building the skills, the 9 might instead fantasize about recognition, but when she is faced with actually practicing or building those skills, it feels meaningless and shallow, because this kind of labor isnt LIFE. And it will all decay and fade away anyway, so it doesnt really matter. This is the pattern 9s get stuck in. Yet still, they LONG for that sense of recognition, the 3-line, the sense of worth, of building up something of their own, the sense of PURPOSE... yet some 9s are so inclined to write it off as being "forced" or "unnatural" in the process.



> Again, even if I don't do it. I'll imagine learning how to do something and impressing people; following through on an idea, having it take off and my becoming semi-famous for my work, or mastering a subject and becoming a respected authority. That kind of stuff.


I can't picture a 4 ever saying this, in this way. The subject would have to MEAN something to them. (This is a trap in and of itself, but very different from what you are describing.)



> It really bothered me when I first realized just how much I think like this; it bothered me that I would rather learn to impress than learn for the sake of learning, for example. Like it's somehow inferior, less "pure" than people who don't have that desire. This kind of "image-focus" is, I think, what attracted me to the heart triad so much, why I feel so drawn to and fascinated by those types, so identified, even.


Yeah, and that image focus BOTHERS you, which is why it strikes me as a "broken" line to 3, like a yearning that you want to integrate to but you keep holding yourself back. 3s will lose their own feelings and sense of who they REALLY are and shame in their work, like "I am my work" rather than "My work fulfills me." And 4s will do something similar but more for the sake of "expressing" their authentic image, rather than just BEING or LIVING... having to define/ symbolize/ express/ display/ communicate / understand/ capture their "genuine" feelings.. rather than just live it. But it's so automatic, that to me, this IS life. This process IS living, and it is what separates me from the "living dead." It is the passion and fire and blood that makes me ME. I only recognize how it breaks down, because I am in love with a 9 who can let go of all that stuff and really feel the moment for what it is, without having to communicate it, capture it, show it, etc. In fact, he has resistance to this type of process which for me is as natural as breathing. Yet I am also drawn to him because when I'm with him I have no choice but to let go of my constructions and live in the moment, breathe the air, feel the beauty. I feel more human, more connected. Momentarily, my internal hall of mirrors starts to aim outward and let the world in. That huge line between "me" and "everyone else/ the world" fades away and I start to feel at least in the moment, that I AM cut from the same cloth as others, that there is a life and death cycle and I am part of it. I have to take copious amounts of LSD to feel the way he feels every day. Yet, he struggles with some of the things that come naturally to me too, like finding deep meaning in my goals and their pursuit, and pushing myself every day toward those goals even if it is grueling. [To be specific, my goals are *always* - without fail - tied to my expression of emotion.]

Recognition makes me feel great when it happens, but what I really want deep down is to be seen for who I am, to be understood. Yet I often lose hope that this is even possible. I do my art, my book, my music, etc, and what I crave is people telling me, "I really relate to your lyrics.." and explaining how they saw themselves in it. I feel more fulfilled talking deeply about my characters in my book and why I wrote it, than how good my writing is. I do want to make money with it and "get recognition," but mostly because I want to survive just doing my art, and I don't want to have to fill up my time, which I could otherwise dedicate to my meaningful expressions of feelings, to some job that means nothing to me.




> And yet: I'm passive and terrible at standing up for myself.


My parents would exchange me for you in a heartbeat.



> I'm indecisive, aimless, and not really sure what I really want out of life save some generalities.


4s generally struggle with hopelessness. Envy is about longing for something that isn't there. They know EXACTLY what they want, but they can't get it. Everyone else has these desires for things that they are able to get... and a 4 might feel, if only I could want those simple things, instead of the impossible thing I do want, then I might be fulfilled like others are.. yet I can't do that, because it isn't me.

I've never met a 4 who DOESNT KNOW WHAT THEY WANT. It's more about, I can't have it, or there's something wrong with me for wanting it.



> I have an unhealthy relationship with food that my mind connects to a focus on satisfying bodily needs (a recent revelation that, it occurred to me, has affected my typing in both Enneagram and MBTI). I'm typically not a consciously angry person, though I have no problem feeling it - I've even thrown terrifying tantrums where I could barely think from rage and that lack of control scared me. My past tendency to be ignored makes me more sad than anything else. I don't know how much I actually manage my image. And my continual complaint is that all my desires result in little or no action.


This is basically a 9 description. Does that make sense or should I elaborate on why? I don't even know where to start with this part of the post because it's basically touching on a few 9 points so eloquently that I cannot possibly say it better.

- Tendency to be ignored - 9s worry about being "wallflowers" or they "don't matter," having no presence
- Losing control or awareness of their rage
- No action (sloth)

etc..



Hmm, let me know if this makes sense or you have any questions.. I had Ne party over here


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

No, it makes sense. And yes, it is bad.


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> No, it makes sense. And yes, it is bad.


I'm sorry  I know how much typing sucks. I was just almost in tears looking back at old posts when I had typed at 8 or 3, almost crying how embarrassed I was that my boyfriend read my stupid old posts that were so incredibly... cold.. and imagey.. ughgdfjhgjkdfhgfjhg. I didn't mean to say bad things, it just seemed like you were really struggling with your type. Whether it's your core or not, I hope it helps in some way.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Animal said:


> I'm sorry  I know how much typing sucks. I was just almost in tears looking back at old posts when I had typed at 8 or 3, almost crying how embarrassed I was that my boyfriend read my stupid old posts that were so incredibly... cold.. and imagey.. ughgdfjhgjkdfhgfjhg. I didn't mean to say bad things, it just seemed like you were really struggling with your type. Whether it's your core or not, I hope it helps in some way.


No, you didn't do anything wrong. 

I just don't want it to be my core. Someone suggested my being an image core, 3w4 or 4w3, so I jumped at the chance to try it...I'd take _anything else_ as my core. 

Though I recall reading that that very attitude is a sign that whatever type is getting that reaction _is_ your core because no one wants to admit their ugly side.


(Be proud of me - I'm resisting the urge to splatter some self-deprecating rage here and holding off pretty well, heh...)


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> No, you didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> I just don't want it to be my core. Someone suggested my being an image core, 3w4 or 4w3, so I jumped at the chance to try it...I'd take _anything else_ as my core.
> 
> Though I recall reading that that very attitude is a sign that whatever type is getting that reaction _is_ your core.


My first typing thread - I'd been on perc about 6 months?? And I wrote a thread.. and immediately someone typed me at 4. I protested "I've never felt any envy at all in my life!" and "I have NO SHAME AT ALL" and wrote another thread, then a third thread, on which I used any words I could come up with to emphasize 3ish themes... like I used the word "Success" to describe what I meant with "being seen," I used "Fear" instead of "Shame," etc... I just.. no matter how many words I put to it, the themes were there, but I buried it in so much crap that people did type me at 3 or 7. I wanted so badly to be a 3 and mistyped at 3, and I got enough backing that I felt justified in my type. I never mistyped at 7 because my father is a 7 and I am too aware of why I'm not a 7, but... I covered myself up to the point where others couldn't see me either, and then I felt like nobody could see me for who I really am.. UGH.. I set this horrid trap for myself just to resist the 4 typing. It took me another *year* and a lot of fights on perc and agony, as well as a "soul-revealing experience," to finally type correctly.


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> (Be proud of me - I'm resisting the urge to splatter some self-deprecating rage here and holding off pretty well, heh...)


Haha. Feel free to let it out  I can take it


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Animal said:


> Haha. Feel free to let it out  I can take it


It has nothing to do with you, I was kidding...and I really don't need to shitpost anymore of that on PerC...


* *





Any type but Nine. I'd take anything else. This whole mess started with my thinking I might be a Six, then someone suggested image core and I jumped at it. I was - I am - willing to take any type but Nine. 

It has nothing to do with emotions or basic drives/fears/whatever - I can face those. It's that it all adds up to I'M NOTHING. I'm dead in every way but physically. I have nothing to offer, nothing of worth, nothing to give me the slightest chance at having any value whatsoever. No talent, no complexity, no success, no real issues to overcome, no struggles, no inner tortures, no interests, no original perceptions - nothing. None that are real at least. 

That's all I'll ever be - the nice one. Sweet, kind, a "nice, quiet tinkler" who's only value is in being...I don't know, a listener or something. A simpleton with nothing better to think about but her own body. Who can never be anything to anyone because she has nothing to offer, nothing to demonstrate any value at all. The worst of it is that this isn't, as I hoped so badly, a phase. This isn't a lack of health or a mistype from mental illness - this is who I am. This trash, this boring, mindless, worthless nothing is _who I am in the depths of my soul and there is nothing I can do about it_ except spend the rest of my life fantasizing about having been born something better. Like I said, any other type would be better. Anything else but this.


----------



## aurly

*hug*


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

aurly said:


> *hug*


Oh geez, um...thanks. That wasn't necessary. Though writing it out and hitting post was kind of relieving.


----------



## Flatlander

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> It has nothing to do with you, I was kidding...and I really don't need to shitpost anymore of that on PerC...
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any type but Nine. I'd take anything else. This whole mess started with my thinking I might be a Six, then someone suggested image core and I jumped at it. I was - I am - willing to take any type but Nine.
> 
> It has nothing to do with emotions or basic drives/fears/whatever - I can face those. It's that it all adds up to I'M NOTHING. I'm dead in every way but physically. I have nothing to offer, nothing of worth, nothing to give me the slightest chance at having any value whatsoever. No talent, no complexity, no success, no real issues to overcome, no struggles, no inner tortures, no interests, no original perceptions - nothing. None that are real at least.
> 
> That's all I'll ever be - the nice one. Sweet, kind, a "nice, quiet tinkler" who's only value is in being...I don't know, a listener or something. A simpleton with nothing better to think about but her own body. Who can never be anything to anyone because she has nothing to offer, nothing to demonstrate any value at all. The worst of it is that this isn't, as I hoped so badly, a phase. This isn't a lack of health or a mistype from mental illness - this is who I am. This trash, this boring, mindless, worthless nothing is _who I am in the depths of my soul and there is nothing I can do about it_ except spend the rest of my life fantasizing about having been born something better. Like I said, any other type would be better. Anything else but this.


What is your value to yourself?


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Flatlander said:


> What is your value to yourself?


...what?


----------



## Flatlander

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> ...what?


Your post was entirely focused on your perception of your value to others. Is that how you determine your own value?


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Flatlander said:


> Your post was entirely focused on your perception of your value to others. Is that how you determine your own value?


It's either value to others or value _in relation_ to others - comparison and all that.

And it wasn't _all_ other-focused - I see no reason why I should, how I could "value myself" when there isn't anything of value there. I'd have to create it first, then I can let up. Except that's a lot of work, there's a lot that would need to be fixed, inside and out. 

But yeah, I guess that's it.


----------



## Flatlander

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> It's either value to others or value _in relation_ to others - comparison and all that.
> 
> And it wasn't _all_ other-focused - I see no reason why I should, how I could "value myself" when there isn't anything of value there. I'd have to create it first, then I can let up. Except that's a lot of work, there's a lot that would need to be fixed, inside and out.
> 
> But yeah, I guess that's it.



There isn't a thing in this world that is of null value. Everything that exists has a presence. So do you.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Flatlander said:


> There isn't a thing in this world that is of null value. Everything that exists has a presence. So do you.


Oh, this again. I get this everytime I confess about those thoughts. 

I don't buy it, but thanks.


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> It has nothing to do with you, I was kidding...and I really don't need to shitpost anymore of that on PerC...


I didn't really think it had to do with me.. I just meant, I could handle the intensity of hearing more of your feelings. God I sound like such a 4. x.x

But I loved reading them. It's a beautiful rant. It brought tears to my eyes. 

And that, in itself, is _something_. The feeling you describe. It _is _an issue. It_ is_ something to overcome. It _is _substance, and life. 

The beauty of enneagram is that all people have these same existential dilemmas, but the type is how we defend ourselves from it. You know this already though. I don't mean to sound like an autobot. No amount of logic & justifications makes self-typing any easier, really. (At least , it didn't for me.)


----------



## Flatlander

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Oh, this again. I get this everytime I confess about those thoughts.
> 
> I don't buy it, but thanks.


Your thoughts reveal that pretty clearly.

It's an inherent understanding missing from them that would remove the need for their existence. That's why you keep getting the feedback, probably - it comes from an instinctual response in others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Darkbloom

I need to stop reading this forum


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> Fours are image types and want to be "seen" too, but the main fear is of insignificance. All their lives the 4 built up defense patterns around the idea of creating a significant identity, skills or 'things' that have MEANING whether they are 'cool' or not. This particular thought is why I often associate 9s with randomness. It's like they come up with seemingly "random" things, things that are not necessarily meaningful in the depths of their soul, but seem to spring up from nowhere to draw attention to them. It's the hidden line to 3.. secretly wanting recognition for something, just wanting the recognition.. and the fantasy of recognition is so appealing. Whereas with 4s, the fantasy of expression and being seen for what you really are is appealing. Although 4s can lose "who they really are" in the act of building up an identity that they feel is meaningful, whereas 9s are more "naked." It seems to me that to grow, 4s need to break down their own constructions to get to the crux (and they spend their whole lives doing that to figure out "what is different about me?" "why am I cut from a different cloth than anyone else?") whereas 9s need to BUILD UP more skills, more meaning, more constructions. Because they are most aware of what is human about them, the stuff of their true spirit (love...etc)..whereas a lot of other things beyond "the moment" seem superficial or meaningless. So instead of slowly building the skills, the 9 might instead fantasize about recognition, but when she is faced with actually practicing or building those skills, it feels meaningless and shallow, because this kind of labor isnt LIFE. And it will all decay and fade away anyway, so it doesnt really matter. This is the pattern 9s get stuck in. Yet still, they LONG for that sense of recognition, the 3-line, the sense of worth, of building up something of their own, the sense of PURPOSE... yet some 9s are so inclined to write it off as being "forced" or "unnatural" in the process.


This makes sense, and is also one reason I could still see @_Pressed Flowers_ as having a connection to 4. Hope you don't mind. =P Although you (PL) might also desire recognition, the way you talk about wanting to find your favorite color, soul book etc. That kind of search for symbolism to identify with, in order to find or show your true self, makes me think of type 4. Does that make sense?

@_Silveresque_
True, maybe my indulgent nature actually suggests poor Sp. Although I do feel Sp in other ways also, like I do have this cautiousness to me.



Living dead said:


> I need to stop reading this forum


Having more fun reading about type 9? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


----------



## Darkbloom

Distortions said:


> Having more fun reading about type 9? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Well, I'm not bored so yeah 
@Animal, do you still think I could be a 9? It's just so awfully touching ,everything I read about it (EXCEPT for connection to 3, weirdly, because I have a different relationship to that)
@ScientiaOmnisEst, I've been following your typing and mildly stalking you so I guess you are something special, I rarely give a fuck about random people :laughing:
And it's not that you type as type I find touching, it's just _you_ and the way you write.
I doubt it's comforting lol, but yeah, 9 isn't bland, unnoticable and without purpose, just look at some 9s here.


----------



## Animal

Living dead said:


> Well, I'm not bored so yeah
> @_Animal_, do you still think I could be a 9? It's just so awfully touching ,everything I read about it (EXCEPT for connection to 3, weirdly, because I have a different relationship to that)





> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_, I've been following your typing and mildly stalking you so I guess you are something special, I rarely give a fuck about random people :laughing:
> And it's not that you type as type I find touching, it's just _you_ and the way you write.
> I doubt it's comforting lol, but yeah, 9 isn't bland, unnoticable and without purpose, just look at some 9s here.


I soooo agree with this. Especially in the general sense. 9s seem to have trouble seeing their own value or significance. I am acquainted with a 9 who is a famous rockstar and has been in front of cameras and in movies as a child and has done music all his life. I can guarantee that at least 90% of this forum has heard of this person. He's a musician/actor/ etc. He struggles with this too though. He told me soon after he got signed that he felt uncomfortable in front of the camera, like he was expected to 'put something on' and it just didn't feel like him. He comes up with seemingly random symbols and things to make him stand out which give a sense of meaning but there is really no deep story behind it.. everything down to the necklace he wears. 

His music is very meaningful. His lyrics are beautiful and relateable. His expressions are intense and he has, simply put, the most vibrant eyes I've ever seen from an audience. When he's on stage his eyes absolutely pierce people. Yet when he's not channeling and releasing this 3ish glory, he reverts back to being too agreeable and then resenting people for pushing him, etc. Everyone from his manager to his record company to his band mates.. he ends up stubbornly resisting or handling them in a 9ish way. Yet he has one of the most admirable careers I've encountered and TREMENDOUS integrity when it comes to standing up to bullshit in the industry. Very strong voice in this regard, and true to his real values. So being a 9 took nothing away from that. If anything he touches on what is really important, real and human, and reveals the bullshit in the industry, and stays true to himself in a way I rarely encounter in that field.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

I want to reply even though I'm not sure what I have to say.



Animal said:


> I didn't really think it had to do with me.. I just meant, I could handle the intensity of hearing more of your feelings. God I sound like such a 4. x.x
> 
> But I loved reading them. It's a beautiful rant. It brought tears to my eyes.


Well, it brought me tears while I was writing it, so... 



> And that, in itself, is _something_. The feeling you describe. It _is _an issue. It_ is_ something to overcome. It _is _substance, and life.


There are times when it does feel like "something"...like overcoming it could be a narrative of its own. But I watch enough TV to make myself think that narrative wouldn't end well. :/



> The beauty of enneagram is that *all people have these same existential dilemmas*, but the type is how we defend ourselves from it. You know this already though. I don't mean to sound like an autobot. No amount of logic & justifications makes self-typing any easier, really. (At least , it didn't for me.)


Here's the weird part: I have a hard time believing/accepting that bit in bold...and if it _is_ true that bothers me for some reason. Yeah, I'm a narcissist. It either bothers me or fascinates me.

But surely no one else is so bad as to need to even have those worries? 


EDIT: I thought of some reactions to stuff from your earlier post:


> 9s need to BUILD UP more skills, more meaning, more constructions. Because they are most aware of what is human about them, the stuff of their true spirit (love...etc)..whereas a lot of other things beyond "the moment" seem superficial or meaningless. So instead of slowly building the skills, the 9 might instead fantasize about recognition, but when she is faced with actually practicing or building those skills, it feels meaningless and shallow, because this kind of labor isnt LIFE. And it will all decay and fade away anyway, so it doesnt really matter.


Okay:

"What is most human about them": this phrase made me first go "What?" and then "...crap". 

"What" because I'm not sure what you mean. "Oh, crap" because there's something about being "very human" that bothers me. Like I always assume that people who are seen as "inhuman" or "alien" must be superior people, better than human. It's a weird complex.

The second point was that, consciously at least, I wouldn't say it seems meaningless or superficial, nor is there any thought (usually) of decay or fade. You give me _far _too much credit there - I'm not that deep, rather the opposite. The demotivation comes from knowing I'll just be overshadowed, or that it's too late to attain any meaningful ability. I'll look ridiculous, so clueless and unskilled at my age - I'm so far behind, why bother trying to catch up and risk the humiliation? 


@_Living dead_: One: I'm flattered. Two: great now I wish I could have had some real mistype revelation. I get the impression that some loser trying desperately to be anything but what she really is and constantly getting the same type isn't that fun to watch. XD

I guess I have a hard time accepting the notion that Nines aren't as dull as every description ever says they (we?) are. I mean, they're the second most common type, and the entire core of the type is having and being nothing internally. You can show me enough examples like Animal's of Nines who aren't losers, and I'll just make excuses that they're lucky, they have talents and skills to recognize and I don't, maybe they're happy with whatever it is but that's out of reach for me, etc. It's like a compulsion to do so.


----------



## Recede

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Oh, this again. I get this everytime I confess about those thoughts.
> 
> I don't buy it, but thanks.


I don't know if this helps you at all since you say you get this sort of thing a lot and don't buy it, but I too have never thought of worth as something to be earned. It's impossible to gain or lose worth because it's intrinsic. I didn't adopt this as a comforting notion, I didn't pick it up from other people. I always had this knowledge and I understand logically why it is true.

The whole idea of enneagram is that there is an objective reality beyond ego, in which all is intrinsically good, worthy, and right. One could call this Essence, and the Holy Ideas are facets of this Essence. The idea is that each type loses touch with certain aspects of Essence, and qualities which were intrinsic become distorted and seen as extrinsic, as something to be earned. The ego subjectively splits these qualities into opposite pairs: good and bad, right and wrong, worthy and unworthy, etc. The problem is that the ego does not perceive reality objectively, it reacts to experiences from a limited mindset which thinks it can own these qualities, or lack them. Do you see what I mean? The idea that worth is intrinsic is built into enneagram. If you truly don't believe it, why bother seeking growth from enneagram at all?

I really think you should give the notion of intrinsic worth (as in worth existing as a principle of Essence and not earned) more serious consideration, because otherwise any way you try to "improve" yourself will just be bolstering ego rather than transcending it.


----------



## Animal

Living dead said:


> Well, I'm not bored so yeah
> @_Animal_, do you still think I could be a 9? It's just so awfully touching ,everything I read about it (EXCEPT for connection to 3, weirdly, because I have a different relationship to that)


Ahh damn, sorry.. I meant to answer this part too, but I got distracted by a call and forgot & posted without it.

What do you mean "except connection to 3?" Can you explain?

I'm not great at typing people "on command.." I have a good chance of figuring things out when I just *see* it, rather than try to find it. So I am not sure....


----------



## aurly

Well, that certainly was dramatic.
I'm not convinced, though. As if that matters. I sense there's more at play here, but.... I dunno if it's wise to go on.




This time I'm intentionally being vague


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

aurly said:


> Well, that certainly was dramatic.
> I'm not convinced, though. As if that matters. I sense there's more at play here, but.... I dunno if it's wise to go on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This time I'm intentionally being vague


If any of this has anything to do with me I'm sorry. For the drama.


----------



## aurly

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> If any of this has anything to do with me I'm sorry. For the drama.


Oh, don't be. Nobody here should be. This place needs a little drama once in a while


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Distortions said:


> This makes sense, and is also one reason I could still see @_Pressed Flowers_ as having a connection to 4. Hope you don't mind. =P Although you (PL) might also desire recognition, the way you talk about wanting to find your favorite color, soul book etc. That kind of search for symbolism to identify with, in order to find or show your true self, makes me think of type 4. Does that make sense?
> 
> @_Silveresque_
> True, maybe my indulgent nature actually suggests poor Sp. Although I do feel Sp in other ways also, like I do have this cautiousness to me.
> 
> 
> Having more fun reading about type 9? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


I'm pretty sure I identify more with the 9 description here... I always find it curious that anyone would see me as being "image" still. My entire life deals with my connection between myself and the world, not about how others perceive me (and I actually feel a great distance between the idea of the image type... and I struggle to understand how one could operate in an image way, concerned with how they interact with the world). I think that part of being 9 is trying to find who you are beneath the musky perception of yourself you start with. While I have been working on connecting with my identity lately, my entire life I have struggled with realizing that... I was a person, I was unique, there was something there in me. I very much have done that "building identity" thing that is described here... and finally I think I've found something true in me where I'm not just trying on colors and trying to identify myself with something just because... but we'll see in time I guess. 

(And actually finding my identity has been very important to me... because especially when I was recently traumatized, a bit over a year and until maybe eight months ago, my identity was lost as "un-person most deserving of terrible things". My build up of identity and knowledge of myself lately has been to combat that, and, while I think it's washed away some of the impacts of trauma,I'm also think it's helped me find the me that I've only been trying to make my entire life. I'm finding that really I've been a person all this time, I've just had such trouble realizing it.) 

Also, if I may ask... @Animal, do you have any old or new thoughts about my type? You mentioned a time or two that you had some opinions, but I'm not sure if they've changed or stayed the same. (You also mentioned that you didn't have time at the time to elaborate, and I understand if that's the case still, but know hat I am still very open to your opinion and curious about it.)


----------



## Animal

Pressed Flowers said:


> Also, if I may ask... @_Animal_, do you have any old or new thoughts about my type? You mentioned a time or two that you had some opinions, but I'm not sure if they've changed or stayed the same. (You also mentioned that you didn't have time at the time to elaborate, and I understand if that's the case still, but know hat I am still very open to your opinion and curious about it.)


Yeah I'm so sorry I got behind on that. I've been busy but just following this thread and barely posting.


I still think you're a 9w1 and Fe dom - basically I agree with your self-typing as far as I can tell. The reason 9 jumped out at me was, in essence, how you described a process of understanding different perspectives or ... something in your description of your writing and creative process struck me as a search for holy love. It reminded me of how my own process is about being a symbol of my values (Fi) - each character represents another approach or comes to symbolize an aspect of my own expression, or how I might express myself if I had that particular person's assets, or.. one character has completely different values than me but he poses good arguments as to why my own approach isn't pragmatic enough, and then the Fi character has to stand up to it. Of course I drafted this before I ever knew typology..


But the feel of your book seemed 9ish. I would have to look at the thread again to bring up specifics, but I remember a strong feeling that there was a core of Fe in seeing things through the eyes of several people and also finding what unites them all , holy love. I will look at the post again, but that's what stands out in my memory. I may be misrepresenting/ misremembering, because I haven't read it since then, but that was the "impression" that stuck with me. I will look..


----------



## Animal

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I want to reply even though I'm not sure what I have to say.


I never know what I'm going to say in words until the time comes..



> Well, it brought me tears while I was writing it, so...


=,)



> There are times when it does feel like "something"...like overcoming it could be a narrative of its own. But I watch enough TV to make myself think that narrative wouldn't end well. :/


What do you mean? Sorry, I don't watch tv so I may be missing it  but you mean it doesn't end well with characters who overcome feelings about existential meaninglessness?



> Here's the weird part: I have a hard time believing/accepting that bit in bold...and if it _is_ true that bothers me for some reason. Yeah, I'm a narcissist. It either bothers me or fascinates me.
> 
> But surely no one else is so bad as to need to even have those worries?


Hmm.. actually I think I know what you mean.. sometimes it annoys me when I explain a problem that is really central to my being and someone else says that everyone goes through that or it's human. It's as if they don't understand the severity of this problem or how it affects me more than others, and that makes me feel misunderstood.



> EDIT: I thought of some reactions to stuff from your earlier post:
> 
> 
> Okay:
> 
> "What is most human about them": this phrase made me first go "What?" and then "...crap".
> 
> "What" because I'm not sure what you mean. "Oh, crap" because there's something about being "very human" that bothers me. Like I always assume that people who are seen as "inhuman" or "alien" must be superior people, better than human. It's a weird complex.


That makes sense though. I have written posts from the opposite angle, that I wish I didn't need to be "more me than me" in order to feel like enough, yet it's so automatic for me to come along with my glamor, my music, my art, my expression, my clothing. I don't feel like I'm really LIVING without this..erm.. identity? or self-expression? .. yet sometimes I suddenly become conscious of "What if this isn't as authentic as just BEING?" My lifestyle and mindset feel authentic and automatic to me, but I also wish I could just be bare and naked sometimes, that I could feel worthy of love without being "special" or "expressive" or "alien" in some way.



> The second point was that, consciously at least, I wouldn't say it seems meaningless or superficial, nor is there any thought (usually) of decay or fade. You give me _far _too much credit there - I'm not that deep, rather the opposite. The demotivation comes from knowing I'll just be overshadowed, or that it's too late to attain any meaningful ability. I'll look ridiculous, so clueless and unskilled at my age - I'm so far behind, why bother trying to catch up and risk the humiliation?


Hmm yeah, that makes sense. Even I feel clueless and unskilled.. I push myself to express what I need to express, but I always feel like my skills are behind.



> @_Living dead_: One: I'm flattered. Two: great now I wish I could have had some real mistype revelation. I get the impression that some loser trying desperately to be anything but what she really is and constantly getting the same type isn't that fun to watch. XD
> 
> I guess I have a hard time accepting the notion that Nines aren't as dull as every description ever says they (we?) are. I mean, they're the second most common type, and the entire core of the type is having and being nothing internally. You can show me enough examples like Animal's of Nines who aren't losers, and I'll just make excuses that they're lucky, they have talents and skills to recognize and I don't, maybe they're happy with whatever it is but that's out of reach for me, etc. It's like a compulsion to do so.


Any *type* can be dull. Some fours can bore me to tears, especially because I see right through them and their bullshit just makes me roll my eyes. A four I was friends with at school made me burn with rage with all her social crying and reaching out for a rescuer very openly. I think half of me was jealous that she could do it so openly and that everyone loved her for it, while I was stewing in my own room (she's so/sx, I'm sx/sp, very different) .. and another part of me was just damn annoyed, like ugh, that is WEAK, take care of your own shit and stop flaunting these minor problems, your problems are no worse than anyone else's and yet you think they are and you over-dramatize them and focus only on yourself (sounds familiar??? noo!! banging my head on the wall). I think its natural to be harder on our own type, or in general, react negatively people who are exhibiting behavior that we hate in ourselves. Though there is also the possibility of reacting negatively to something we don't do, just because it clashes with who we are.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Pressed Flowers
Just so it's clear, I don't think you're an image type. I was talking about _connections,_​ not the core.


----------



## Darkbloom

Animal said:


> It's the hidden line to 3.. secretly wanting recognition for something, just wanting the recognition.. and the fantasy of recognition is so appealing.


Recognition...
What I mean is that I hate recognition that seems like 9-style recognition, I always hated it but never realized it before I actually thought about it. 
Like, being told "Thank you", "Good job", "I'm proud of you", I _worked_ for it and expected it, got angry when I didn't get it but at the same time hated it and waited for the day it will finally be enough, the day that I'll finally be able to take pride in what I wanna take pride in, unapologetically, instead of lying about what I want and giving minor accomplishments _I_ never cared about in exchange for right to show I have some sense of self worth. And then, the accomplishment that had nothing to do with me got praised, and I had to convince myself it had something to do with me. 
Of course, I care about recognition, obviously, I wouldn't have typed as all of the image types at some point if I didn't want love and recognition, but recognition for _me_, and for truly exceptional things impossible to do by other people, not even in the sense of achieving, like, being the best X in country or whatever. Being the best X in country is part of the picture but people end up misunderstanding it and focusing more on that one part than the picture.
Yes, I am most definitely a bit of a shallow bitch and I like selfies and designer bags and some weird things but there's more to it than that, even the most shallow parts of me have a purpose that's slightly different depending on observer, but it's always me.

But my relationship with my dad was sx 9-ish, or at least I perceive it as such, because, well, I went with his agenda more than he was aware he expected of me and I developed resentment, obviously, and I generally developed hatred for lots of people throughout years, even the ones I "liked" and was fairly nice around later I realized I hated them all along and people I "hated" and treated not so perfectly didn't deserve it in some cases.


No pressure, I too can't type on command and I get it, sorry if I seem pushy
Just getting some more information out


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Distortions said:


> @Pressed Flowers
> Just so it's clear, I don't think you're an image type. I was talking about _connections,_​ not the core.


Makes sense, thank you for clarifying ^^ I must admit that I related to this a lot (especially when I thought I was a 2) 



Eggybread said:


> The Soul-Child of Enneatype Two (Point Four)
> Behind the loving, giving and helpful outer facade of a Two lies a competitive, jealous and spiteful little Four-ish soul child. Twos try to present themselves as sweet and kind, self-sacrificing, humble, all of which can be seen as very much a reaction to the darker tendencies of their soul child. This is a little boy who wants to scream "I hate you!" to the other little boy who got the teacher or mommy's attention, pull his hair and tell him how awful he is and how stupid he is too. He is very observant about who gets how many cookies, tries to grab the most and the best and reacts with spite and venom if he does not get what he wants. He is filled with envy, believing the other kids have what he lacks and that they are better than he, cuter and more lovable. He can be bitchy and back biting, vindictive and huffy.


I do have some 4 tendencies, but basically I think they're very immature tendencies, not a true fix or influence. 

For example, I envy people... but I usually just envy people for being socially affluent... and, yes, when someone is acknowledged as "a good, giving person" and I am not. I also envy - or admire, perhaps a better term in these scenarios - those people with strong identities...

but I don't think I envy people so much for being inherently unique or different? I'm of the conviction that every person is inherently unique and different to the same beautiful extent as the next person, and sometimes (hopefully this is not too judgmental though I fear it is) I can grow frustrated with people who like to flaunt their inner differences rather than accommodating to see how they are like others, and quietly use their differences to help others (I'm not trying to sound overtly 2 honestly) while keeping in touch with their closeness to all of humanity. And I especially grow frustrated with those who consider themselves more special or deserving than others... so I wouldn't exactly envy outright uniqueness? 

(Maybe these are 4 things though, wanting to have a strong identity... but it's more like I want that because I don't really have rhat? Honestly though I wouldn't know what 4 things are, as I really haven't looked into 4 information too thoroughly)


----------



## FakeLefty

Ohai, @Animal!

What do you think of my typing as a 3w4? Or thr rest of my tritype? :kitteh:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> The beauty of enneagram is that all people have these same existential dilemmas, but the type is how we defend ourselves from it.


That's one problem I have, actually. I don't really relate to having any existential issues, so that's a part of the enneagram (that seems pretty big?) that I can't resonate with.


----------



## Animal

Distortions said:


> That's one problem I have, actually. I don't really relate to having any existential issues, so that's a part of the enneagram (that seems pretty big?) that I can't resonate with.


It doesn't have to be conscious. You still have the existential dilemmas of: 

- one day you will die so everything will fade away (whether you think about it or not)
- needing to love and be loved (even if you don't realize you have that need)
- needing to survive 
- figuring out the difference between surviving and living (even if not consciously, this is basically the art of learning what matters to YOU personally and pursuing it)
- fear, shame and rage, and figuring out what to do with them
- learning your own value & the value of others

etc.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Animal said:


> What do you mean? Sorry, I don't watch tv so I may be missing it  but you mean it doesn't end well with characters who overcome feelings about existential meaninglessness?


I actually wanted to take a moment to explain this one because it's sort of messed up.

What I was thinking of had exactly nothing to do with existential meaninglessness. It had to do with acquiring skills. I probably have no idea how reality actually works, and I tend to believe that natural skill always outdoes practiced training. I could learn whatever, practice to a high degree of proficiency, but I'll be upstaged or outdone by someone naturally gifted at it. And then I'll just look ridiculous, it will all be for nothing if I'm rendered totally useless by someone who's not just better, but effortlessly better. 

There's no way to explain this that doesn't sound crazy.




> Hmm.. actually I think I know what you mean.. sometimes it annoys me when I explain a problem that is really central to my being and someone else says that everyone goes through that or it's human. It's as if they don't understand the severity of this problem or how it affects me more than others, and that makes me feel misunderstood.


YES! That's exactly it. Or like being told my problem or my suffering is "normal" is just trivializing it, trivializing _me_. Few things piss me off so much.



> That makes sense though. I have written posts from the opposite angle, that I wish I didn't need to be "more me than me" in order to feel like enough, yet it's so automatic for me to come along with my glamor, my music, my art, my expression, my clothing. I don't feel like I'm really LIVING without this..erm.. identity? or self-expression? .. yet sometimes I suddenly become conscious of "What if this isn't as authentic as just BEING?" My lifestyle and mindset feel authentic and automatic to me, but I also wish I could just be bare and naked sometimes, that I could feel worthy of love without being "special" or "expressive" or "alien" in some way.


Stuff I want to say to this, but I' having trouble organizing my thoughts. One point about authenticity: since becoming conscious of my...image-focus, I guess, it starts to worry me. Am I doing this, do I like this, do I want this because it reflects my personality, resonates with me - or because it's related to some image ideal that I want? I can't always tell and it kind of worries me now.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> It doesn't have to be conscious.


Well, sure. I get that it's more subconscious (or at least that it can be), but I still feel like I should... feel something. So for example, I can worry about dying a lot but that doesn't feel very existential. It's just being scared of being something specific rather than existential anxiety. So I try to find if there is something deeper underlying but...


----------



## Paradigm

Distortions said:


> So for example, I can worry about dying a lot but that doesn't feel very existential. It's just being scared of being something specific rather than existential anxiety.


What do you think existential anxiety would be about?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> What do you think existential anxiety would be about?


Well, it's more of a... general or permeating feel? Not sure if I can explain it well the way I imagine it, but in the thread distinguishing existential anxiety from regular anxiety in the 6 forum, I don't relate to how it describes existential anxiety either, so.


----------



## Paradigm

Distortions said:


> Well, it's more of a... general or permeating feel? Not sure if I can explain it well the way I imagine it, but in the thread distinguishing existential anxiety from regular anxiety in the 6 forum, I don't relate to how it describes existential anxiety either, so.


I was wanting to hear what you thought before I gave my definition.

This is what I wrote a few months ago:


Paradigm said:


> Existential anxiety is the inherent realization that anything is possible, and being dazzled by the amount of possibilities. I say inherent because I'm sure there's people of various types who have made the same realization. But for 6s, there's no "AHA" moment to this idea, it's simply common, or perhaps instinctual, knowledge -- though they may have gone "AHA" when they found words for the concept.
> 
> That's not to say 6s don't fully know certain things are improbable to the point of impossibility; 6s aren't stupid. But you can only rule out so much, and they still get lost and overwhelmed by the amount of possibilities left over. Each 6 deals with being overwhelmed differently, from being staunchly loyal to stubbornly independent, from being close-minded to progressive, and so on. (Most of which is not based on the P/CP continuum!)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Paradigm
Hmm, right. Out of curiosity, do you have an idea/take on the other types' existential issue?


----------



## Paradigm

Distortions said:


> @Paradigm
> Hmm, right. Out of curiosity, do you have an idea/take on the other types' existential issue?


TBH I'm really hesitant to describe them since I don't "live" them. I can know what 6 is like because I'm a 6, but any other type would be an intellectual guess.

Edit: This, along with the fact that any type can potentially manifest in infinite ways, is why I think it's silly and limiting to rely on one author / one source. The more sources you have the more of a complete picture you can make.


----------



## Recede

Distortions said:


> @_Paradigm_
> Hmm, right. Out of curiosity, do you have an idea/take on the other types' existential issue?


I'd imagine all three withdrawn types may have some connection to an existential void or separateness. With type Nine there's an issue of indifference. One may feel on a subconscious level that the world is indifferent to them, that their presence doesn't matter to the world, and so the more Nines deteriorate, the more they retaliate with this same attitude of indifference toward the world. In more extreme states of Sloth and indifference, this can create the perception to the Nine that nothing is worthwhile and the world is empty. There's just a vast, endless void. This is why the basic fear of the Nine is loss/separation. They may fear the void, the loss of the world.

I'd like to hear what the void is like for Fours and Fives, if anyone has any thoughts about that.


----------



## galactic collision

so/sx or sx/so? almost definitely so/sx, but what if my sx is just...shy on the internet


----------



## heavydirtysoul

It's been a while, because I thought it might be nice to have some time not to think. Yet it's never the best decision to make and here we are again, and, sure, I confess it is an amazing, relieving feeling, to get things done making a step closer in figuring everything out.

2w3 8w7 6 n/a considering wing, sp/sx last time checked. Still failing to fit into this one. Definitely having Se and little Fi along the lines. 

It has been said once I do not like questionnaires as they set bounds of dim abstraction. Reasonably, I crave mental (i. e. cerebral, intellectual) simplicity. For a note, we are, for sure, not talking about the wide-range nature of "emotion" - it is different and a lot more difficult. And, at the current moment, the mind of mine has a great thirst of order, structure and self-determination; I think and I know I can be great, efficient and capable in condition of being knowledgeable.

I feel uncomfortable, timid being debatable. Complicated. Grey. As if uncertainty defined I have so little control over anything. Struggling. Not moving, having no dynamic. 

Besides and out of nowhere, I am ought to confess that, as far as I am concerned, lately, there has been something very wrong with me. Nor am I bright and bubbly, nor do I consider my jokes fun and relevant, yet somehow I am at a phase where I find ridiculously showy things come flying out of my face. I keep craving somebody else's attention, otherwise, I'm never noticed. It's safe to tell that the saddest part, I end up feeling alone every now and then, because nobody understands me, I don't fully understand me. Yet there's a thing echoing repeatedly in my head, they are not special until you make them so.

Who was I trying to be? 

I wanted to belong. I adopted the idea of being a part of something bigger, but, for God's sake, I've never been the one to fit in completely, I've never truly, passionately desired to fit in. 

Remembering the time I thought I am the one everyone'd be better off without. Back then, I didn't only hurt myself, but those around me, and ever since that day I was trying to take it back being reckless, carrying sizzling, disgraceful guilt, trying to make people around happy, satisfied craving self-sacrifice or acceptance, yet having a very subjective, strange understanding of others' needs. Must take a note, I can't either say "the acceptance" specifically, but rather the acknowledgement of what it is like to be reapproachable, to be loved, to be considered special, to be close to a person to an extent of feeling protected, safe, taken care of, to be appreciated and to feel needed. Doing things solely for other people... do you know how lonely it is, how self-destructive, how dangerous?

I've never really understood what it was, what he wanted to see in me, so I got confused about who I was, caught up, lost.

At heart, I always knew to be closer to the basics, I had to be smart, tough, to keep calm, quiet, nearly silent. To never show weakness, never reveal more than nothing. To resemble hard work, because hard work is rewarding, to posses quick wit, kindness and an understanding nature. To stay humble. Never rush, never make a noise. To be active, driven, enthusiastic, collected.

Yet is there a soul behind all of it? Isn't it a bit another cliche as well? There's nothing different about that, nothing fascinating, interesting, worth looking at. Still a failure. And, for sure, I may not always know what I’m doing but I’ll have to try make things better.

*Stuck, need help.* Whatever I am currently at, I don't feel right about it. Where do I begin? What topics do I consider to get deeper with it?
@Paradigm @Animal


----------



## Recede

@ScientiaOmnisEst

You sure you're not a 9w1 rather than w8? You seem more superego.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Recede said:


> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_
> 
> You sure you're not a 9w1 rather than w8? You seem more superego.


I originally thought of myself as a w1. The w8 typing mainly came from:

- Explosive, sometimes violent anger
- Lack of perfectionism in practice. I might have ridiculous standards for myself in theory, but often when I actually do things I end up just going "Eh, good enough."

Though in a lot of ways, yeah, I am pretty superego-driven. I guess I'm not sure about my wing.


----------



## Recede

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I originally thought of myself as a w1. The w8 typing mainly came from:
> 
> - Explosive, sometimes violent anger
> - Lack of perfectionism in practice. I might have ridiculous standards for myself in theory, but often when I actually do things I end up just going "Eh, good enough."
> 
> Though in a lot of ways, yeah, I am pretty superego-driven. I guess I'm not sure about my wing.


Well, 9 is already an anger type, and so is 1. I expect Ones can explode too, not just Eights.



> Because Ones resist fully expressing their anger, they are often unaware of its presence as a continual backdrop of smoldering resentment. Of course, not even the average One’s deeply ingrained habits of self-control can keep their anger down indefinitely. Sooner or later it is expressed, often inappropriately, and often with negative consequences for their relationships. - See more at: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/the-traditional-enneagram/#sthash.ajtXK3m7.dpuf


And having high standards but then going "Eh, good enough" just sounds like 9w1 rather than 1w9. I don't do standards at all, in practice or in theory. My focus is more self-protective. I'm going to get what I want through stubborn withdrawn resistance. Even if it is selfish, my needs and comfort zone seem to be my first priority.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Recede said:


> Well, 9 is already an anger type, and so is 1. I expect Ones can explode too, not just Eights.
> 
> And having high standards but then going "Eh, good enough" just sounds like 9w1 rather than 1w9. I don't do standards at all, in practice or in theory. My focus is more self-protective. I'm going to get what I want through stubborn withdrawn resistance. Even if it is selfish, my needs and comfort zone seem to be my first priority.


From descriptions I'd understood that 9w1's are the more stereotypical, peaceful Nines, the non-confrontational ones who repress their anger compared to 9w8s who are a little better at asserting themselves, more comfortable with anger. Simlarly, that w1 is supposed to give a Nine a perfectionistic bent, w8s are practically the opposite.


----------



## Recede

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> From descriptions I'd understood that 9w1's are the more stereotypical, peaceful Nines, the non-confrontational ones who repress their anger compared to 9w8s who are a little better at asserting themselves, more comfortable with anger. Simlarly, that w1 is supposed to give a Nine a perfectionistic bent, w8s are practically the opposite.


That is perfectionism that you're showing, though. The w1 brings a focus on standards and ideals, though with the 9 still as the core, the tendency is more to maintain things as they are rather than actively improve things.

And I'd say even 9w1s aren't necessarily doormats who can't assert themselves at all, it's just that more weight is given to superego ideals than id desires. And I'd argue that all Nines can become more reactive and vent their anger more when disintegrating. For example:



> "When others continue to disturb their "slumbers," Nines develop a siege mentality and can react aggressively to people like average Sixes. They may blame others as the cause of their problems, or they may react defiantly to the people around them who have been trying to get through their self-defeating defenses. Displays of temper and angry outbursts are not uncommon, though they are often as much of a surprise to Nines as they are to the people who know them. Their belligerent reactions create more conflicts and escalate their anxiety." - _Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery_


----------



## heavydirtysoul

*sigh*


----------



## aurly

sweet disaster said:


> *sigh*


Hi

Are you a 2? The type 2 forums are dead, I think they're all mistyping.


----------



## EndsOfTheEarth

I'm beginning to suspect I'm actually a 4 and not 5, although I am most definately SP. Although the core fears and motivations of both types speak equally to me, actually I think a lot of the reasons I thought I was a 5 had to do with the negative behaviours I was exhibiting as a function of my ill-health.....or maybe not. So in any case I'm reassessing. 

I've been trying to figure out why I've stayed in a job I hate and that hates me back for so long. For the longest time I'd been justifying it under the banner of more $$ hoarding to buy a house. Can't quit now, just another year and then I can etc. But last night it all crashed in on me and I got uncontrollably weepy. I've hung onto it for so long and lied to myself for so long because it's been the one stable thing in my life in the past decade. Everything else has been in upheaval and that's been my little life raft of constancy that I imagined was keeping me sane. I actually fear letting go right now because I don't trust myself to create that stability again with something else. Then where would I be? Back in the same place I was a decade ago, drifting and bored rather than moving towards my goals. 

I'm not sure where to start with this reassessment, but I do know I have a torrid inner emotional life that I don't really seem all that disconnected from if I'm being honest. My most constant daybreams even from teenager hood was some silly romantic notion involving the opposite sex. I do live in a fortress of my own making, and I do research but a lack of research is not what really holds me back from a course of action. It's usually how I feel about it, if I'm not passionate enough I won't start because I know I'll just give it up in time. I've dragged my feet on finding another job for years because I didn't feel like any of the other options spoke to me and there was this specialness kind of tag attached to my current profession. I get to travel for a living and do what others only dream of doing etc. To give that up to go and sit in an office all day just rankled me but I couldn't say why.


----------



## heavydirtysoul

aurly said:


> Hi
> 
> Are you a 2? The type 2 forums are dead, I think they're all mistyping.


Hi!  Not exactly. Quite unsure of anything. I wrote a bigger post a page ago. Regards that, I'd be glad if you shared some thoughts.


----------



## aurly

sweet disaster said:


> Hi!  Not exactly. Quite unsure of anything. I wrote a bigger post a page ago. Regards that, I'd be glad if you shared some thoughts.


Ah, I saw it... I thought you were wondering if you were a 2 or not. ... Maybe. But I'd look at type 3 first.


----------



## heavydirtysoul

aurly said:


> Ah, I saw it... I thought you were wondering if you were a 2 or not. ... Maybe. But I'd look at type 3 first.


Why type 3? I've never truly related to one. 
@Animal @Recede could you give me some thoughts pretty please?


----------



## Animal

sweet disaster said:


> Why type 3? I've never truly related to one.
> 
> @_Animal_ @_Recede_ could you give me some thoughts pretty please?


Hmm.. not sure what to say. Do you have a typing thread?


----------



## Recede

@sweet disaster

Based on your post on the other page, I'd say 2w3 or 3w2.


----------



## aurly

Animal said:


> They say 4s want to be unique, but in fact, it is other types, usually 3, 6, and 9, who want to be unique. 4s feel unique by default, and it can be a bad thing.


Well, there's wanting to be unique, and there's wanting to be seen as unique. Younger 4s may try to draw attention to themselves. Older 4s learned that people don't always appreciate uniqueness.



Animal said:


> Why?


Well, mostly it's that I don't see any evidence that he's _not_... and there's some things that seem familiar. You may recall that I also typed as 9 once. Things aren't always what they seem. I don't really have much of an argument and I'm going to have to be vague again. But I think it's worth investigating a bit more for @TheSonderer.


----------



## Animal

aurly said:


> Well, there's wanting to be unique, and there's wanting to be seen as unique. Younger 4s may try to draw attention to themselves. Older 4s learned that people don't always appreciate uniqueness.


Sounds more like a six issue. Fours of any age are driven to be true to themselves, and feel inherently separate and different from others, lacking an essential quality that unites them with everyone else. They may be aware that people don't like them, but the primary drive is to be true to their own sense of identity. To be authentic. So they are not about to pretend to be like others. I understand the argument that people will do things "unlike themselves" in trauma or survival situations, but this is a discussion about enneagram defense patterns, so that's specifically what I'm talking about.

The 4 problem is, if I am true to myself and authentic, other people won't relate to me, because I am truly, authentically, inherently different. Of course, logically speaking that is a lie that 4s tell themselves, since we are all human and all that, and being really authentic would happen if you're not thinking about it.. once you are _trying_ to be authentic, is it really real anymore? Etc. But 4s - young ones especially - feel disconnected from this. It's why holy origin is the holy idea for 4 - it's about feeling like we all come from the same fabric, or they come from the same fabric as others.

Envy is about longing... longing to belong somewhere, with someone. Longing to be loved as they are. Yeah, people don't always appreciate uniqueness, but this is exactly the problem - 4s are inherently unique, do not fit in with others, and it's not necessarily a good thing. It's just the only thing that 4s have to hold on to, to feel like someone might notice. If they exploit their unique traits, perhaps they will attract another person from their home planet.



> Well, mostly it's that I don't see any evidence that he's _not_... and there's some things that seem familiar. You may recall that I also typed as 9 once. Things aren't always what they seem. I don't really have much of an argument and I'm going to have to be vague again. But I think it's worth investigating a bit more for @_TheSonderer_.


I know what you mean about not having an argument.. sometimes it's just a feeling. But his posts absolutely scream 9 and I saw no evidence of 4 specifically. As for you - I haven't seen anything that screams 9 in your posts.


----------



## aurly

Animal said:


> Envy is about longing... longing to belong somewhere, with someone. Longing to be loved as they are. Yeah, people don't always appreciate uniqueness, but this is exactly the problem - 4s are inherently unique, do not fit in with others, and it's not necessarily a good thing. It's just the only thing that 4s have to hold on to, to feel like someone might notice. If they exploit their unique traits, perhaps they will attract another person from their home planet.


Yeah, this. But a four is rather sensitive to criticism and there's only so much one can take before they learn to hide who they are. Keep telling someone they're worthless and they'll eventually believe it. Being authentic seems counterproductive when all it brings is pain. Some may counter it with anger. For others that just makes it worse. A lot of it has to do with how you grew up and what you were taught as a young child.


----------



## Animal

aurly said:


> Yeah, this. But a four is rather sensitive to criticism and there's only so much one can take before they learn to hide who they are. Keep telling someone they're worthless and they'll eventually believe it. Being authentic seems counterproductive when all it brings is pain. Some may counter it with anger. For others that just makes it worse. A lot of it has to do with how you grew up and what you were taught as a young child.


I don't know.. I've been through a lot in my life. I would count as a trauma survivor. I agree it's counter-productive but the problem is that enneagram is about our defense patterns. Everyone has to have one. And when faced with severe trauma and being told certain things, 4's defense pattern is to hold tighter to their idea of "authentic self image" and the thought that they will always be rejected for it. They'll start being more envious, burning with anger and rage and envy that it's so easy for everyone else to be alike, or to pretend to be someone else in order to fit in, yet they will always be isolated. This is how the health levels work, and I'd dare say it applies to trauma and abuse too.

The thing is you're right. There is an amount of abuse and trauma that breaks down everything about you, even your enneagram or defense patterns. But that's not really an adequate way to type people... enneagram is not a substitute for therapy and medication and seeing a real doctor, which is necessary to understand yourself and recover in a trauma sitaution. Believe me, I tried to use enneagram for this too but I ended up dropping it because at a certain point you can relate to every type's worst when you're at your worst, and desperate. I didn't even type correctly until later - Would you believe that in the midst of trauma I typed at 5??? wtf... it seems so ridiculous now, especially since my photos back then and my diary scream 4 even louder than any of my posts here.


----------



## Animal

@aurly
Also, enneagram aside, I'm really sorry you had to go through that. Nobody should have to.


----------



## Animal

On another topic,


Anyone have any opinion on my stack: Sx/So or Sx/Sp ? Or does anyone know what this looks like for 4s in general?


----------



## Darkbloom

Animal said:


> On another topic,
> 
> 
> Anyone have any opinion on my stack: Sx/So or Sx/Sp ? Or does anyone know what this looks like for 4s in general?


I feel like you're not So last.


----------



## Animal

Living dead said:


> I feel like you're not So last.


Any reason or just a hunch?


----------



## Darkbloom

Animal said:


> Any reason or just a hunch?


Well, there are reasons but they are hard to put in words, so I guess it's a hunch.
I'll let you know when I figure it out


----------



## Animal

Living dead said:


> Well, there are reasons but they are hard to put in words, so I guess it's a hunch.
> I'll let you know when I figure it out


Cool 
Just for the record I'm almost impossible to offend, so don't worry too much about finding the right words. I mean.. i f something pops into your mind and you feel like posting it, feel free. I'm really not touchy about these things though I will make a strong case if I disagree (as usual)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> On another topic,
> 
> 
> Anyone have any opinion on my stack: Sx/So or Sx/Sp ? Or does anyone know what this looks like for 4s in general?


I think Sx/Sp suits you, but that might be because I'm so used to you typing that way and there's never been anything that really made me go "wait, this sounds like So..." Except maybe when you talk about your home planet (somewhere where you belong~), but that might just be a general 4 thing.

Do you have an impression of my instincts? I mean, you've said some stuff before but that was a while ago so curious if you have any particular impression these days.


----------



## Animal

Distortions said:


> I think Sp/Sx suits you,


You mean Sx/Sp right?

I've always typed as Sx.. my first instinct is pretty blatant I think



> but that might be because I'm so used to you typing that way and there's never been anything that really made me go "wait, this sounds like So..." Except maybe when you talk about your home planet (somewhere where you belong~), but that might just be a general 4 thing.


Haha yeah.. mayhap.



> Do you have an impression of my instincts? I mean, you've said some stuff before but that was a while ago so...


not really sure. My best guess is Sp first, and with a gun to my head I might say Sp/So, but I'm really not sure. I will think about it. How do you type your instincts now?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> You mean Sx/Sp right?
> 
> I've always typed as Sx.. my first instinct is pretty blatant I think


Er, yes. Sx/Sp yeah. Miswrote. >_>



> Haha yeah.. mayhap.



Yeah like I said I'm not SURE that's necessarily So, but you know what I mean probably?



> not really sure. My best guess is Sp first, and with a gun to my head I might say Sp/So, but I'm really not sure. I will think about it. How do you type your instincts now?


I'm not sure. It doesn't help that thinking about my type/instincts tend to stress me out easily, yet I can't stop doing it either.^^; Hmm, Sx last... Well, I do have some uneasiness when it comes to intimacy, so there's that. Also it seems like I can come across as rather... wishy washy? Distant? Which I found interesting because I've often felt like I easily come on too strong.


----------



## Fern

@_Fern_ you don't have a personality. I'm sorry.

I know this must come as a shock.

Stay strong.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Fern said:


> @_Fern_ you don't have a personality. I'm sorry.
> 
> I know this must come as a shock.


Did you type as a 9 before? :tongue:


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Fern said:


> @Fern you don't have a personality. I'm sorry.
> 
> I know this must come as a shock.


 You're being facetious, I know, but does that upset you?


----------



## mimesis

aurly said:


> Being authentic seems counterproductive when all it brings is pain.


That screams 9.


----------



## Fern

Occams Chainsaw said:


> You're being facetious, I know, but does that upset you?


I'm torn apart on the inside, man.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Fern said:


> I'm torn apart on the inside, man.


I hear that a lot. Just, uh, don't do any vigorous exercise for the next few weeks.


----------



## Fern

Distortions said:


> Did you type as a 9 before? :tongue:


I don't know if this is a witty observation about Peacemakers or a prime example of an impeccable memory.

Either way, the answer is yes :crazy:


----------



## Fern

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I hear that a lot. Just, uh, don't do any vigorous exercise for the next few weeks.


You're not my real dad. You can't tell me what to do.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Fern said:


> You're not my real dad. You can't tell me what to do.


----------



## mimesis

Spirit Animal said:


> Yeah, I see what you mean. There's more to it than just type. But I was trying to contrast this to how sensitive a type 9 is to that kind of pressure. They tend to be more at risk of 'losing themselves' when they adapt too much to others than type 4. For a 9, being unique and true to oneself is about not losing yourself when pressured. For type 4 their uniqueness is isolating and makes them feel misunderstood. Their instinct is always to be true to themselves, even if they have to adapt in order to survive. 4's don't see being true as a choice, whereas 9's do.


True to themselves or true to their inner emotional reality or *true* to their *ideal* (false) self-image (take for instance the 'shameless' sx4)? Really, 4s may lose track of themselves, which is nothing to be ashamed of, but I figure extra confusing when one perceives oneself to be more real or authentic than others.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Fern said:


> I don't know if this is a witty observation about Peacemakers or a prime example of an impeccable memory.
> 
> Either way, the answer is yes :crazy:


You were my ENFJ 9 buddy!


----------



## aurly

mimesis said:


> That screams 9.


Screaming is more of a 4 thing, I've been told.


----------



## aurly

Animal said:


> I don't know.. I've been through a lot in my life. I would count as a trauma survivor. I agree it's counter-productive but the problem is that enneagram is about our defense patterns. Everyone has to have one. And when faced with severe trauma and being told certain things, 4's defense pattern is to hold tighter to their idea of "authentic self image" and the thought that they will always be rejected for it. They'll start being more envious, burning with anger and rage and envy that it's so easy for everyone else to be alike, or to pretend to be someone else in order to fit in, yet they will always be isolated. This is how the health levels work, and I'd dare say it applies to trauma and abuse too.


I think it depends on the kind of trauma or abuse, and what kind of support you have, if any. And there are also multiple ways to deal with envy. The one you described - anger, but the opposite is also possible - counter-envy, or, false contentment. One looks 8ish, the other 9ish.



Animal said:


> @aurly
> Also, enneagram aside, I'm really sorry you had to go through that. Nobody should have to.


Aw, thanks.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Fern said:


> I don't know if this is a witty observation about Peacemakers or a prime example of an impeccable memory.
> 
> Either way, the answer is yes :crazy:


Yeah I mean, I figure you were joking, but it still seemed apt to me that a (possible) 9 would say that.


----------



## mimesis

aurly said:


> Screaming is more of a 4 thing, I've been told.


Yes. And deflection more of a 9 thing.


----------



## Animal

aurly said:


> I think it depends on the kind of trauma or abuse, and what kind of support you have, if any.


Yeah, that counts for a lot. And again I would not dare to type anyone based on how they behaved in a trauma. Some things are just universal where trauma and abuse are concerned.



> And there are also multiple ways to deal with envy. The one you described - anger, but the opposite is also possible - counter-envy, or, false contentment.


False contentment isn't counter-envy. Counter-envy is more like, "You have what I want? Well guess what - I don't want it anyway. It's worthless and means nothing to me. Hmph." That is very different from contentment though. It's more like, contempt.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

mimesis said:


> Yes. And deflection more of a 9 thing.


It is? Never knew that.

@aurly if you turn out to be a Nine I'm going to laugh my ass off. In the kindest possible way, but still.:laughing:


----------



## aurly

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> It is? Never knew that.
> 
> @aurly if you turn out to be a Nine I'm going to laugh my ass off. In the kindest possible way, but still.:laughing:


It would be even funnier if I was a 9 and you a 4 :laughing:


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

aurly said:


> It would be even funnier if I was a 9 and *you a 4* :laughing:


Kinda what I had in mind when I wrote this.

Yeah, that isn't going to happen. I though of one more reason I'm not likely a Four (even a 4-fixer, see my sig): I cannot think of a singular time in my life when I have ever given a flying purple fuck about "authenticity" or "being true to myself". Or had a drive to "express" anything. 

So, yeah. 936, I think.


----------



## Animal

Some stuff I wrote in a facebook enneagram group & copied here, about instincts.

__

I have typed at Sx/Sp 4w3 for a while, but I am loosely considering Sx/So. I saw a video in which
Katherine Fauvre was talking about 478s - which is my tritype- and it was spot on. 

I am very attuned to my own vision, but the feedback I receive from others is that I'm not inclusive etc... like what is described for 478s in the video. I am wondering if I mistook this for social last. My energy feels Sx/So, according to many people, yet I have always built something solid and long-term, like written long novels and had a music career as a young teen - so Sp-last doesn't feel right either. That said, my long-term goals are always about creativity and self-expression. I did great in school and I am pretty diligent when I do work, but I have never pursued a "mundane career." Yet I've worked very hard on my creative skills and long-term projects since I was small. Like fantasy series, finishing a music album and leading a band, etc. And I am good at managing these projects pragmatically. I also manage a serious chronic illness, 50 medications a day and so forth, without much difficulty compared to some Sp-firsts I'm close to who are also sick.
So I am wondering how to tell apart Sp-last and So-last 4s? Or 478s? If anyone knows?

-
I've seen Sx/So 4 being described as "embodying the essence of something" and becoming a symbol of it. My band, including band name, *is* a symbol of losing my voice, and I sing through my whisper. I changed my surname to a name that pertains to feeling exiled from my homeland and finding my identity again. I always wear white on stage or in shoots related to the band, to represent my innocence and original self before I was muddied up by illness; my authentic and purest self, the singer and musician. I do exactly what Sx/So 4 descriptions claim: embody the essence of a universal experience (loss). That said, how do I do it? ... through solid work with goals and enough pragmatism to enact them. So it's confusing..

--
The only reason I "take over" my social environment is for Sp reasons. For instance, I moved to a dangerous part of a city on my own, with a chronic illness and speaking in a whisper - because I wanted to pursue my dreams in music. I took over the building of rooms in an open loft, and ultimately took over the lease because other people were unreliable. My band was like that too - I was a hard-ass leader but in the end, it was my vision, and nobody could share it with me. Yet I wanted to keep everyone happy and make sure there was "something in it for them" (in both scenarios) so this could work out for all of us. But if there isn't a concrete Sx (band) or Sp (apartment) reason to take charge of a social sphere, I really don't care about it. 

--
I am an image type, but I don't really think to project myself in an attractive way for 'Everyone.' I only think about whether someone finds me attractive or amazing if I have Sx-interest in them. Yet i don't really care what "everyone" thinks and I tend to agree with my father's advice: "If nobody hates you, you're doing something wrong."

That was a major reason I thought I could be social last, because I can attract negative attnetion and I also can attract attention in a very individualistic way. I always stand out.. I'm never seen as "part of a group" even if I am very much included in a group. IT's like I have a compulsion to be my own person. But again, maybe its just 487 tritype.

--
I am not private.. I have boundaries and I take care of myself, but I tend to be open by default.. I can "lose myself" in people - only Sx scenarios (whether romantic or not), not really in "groups" .. but I don't have the Sp instinct to "put the breaks on" until it kicks in like 3 months later. The problem is I do have long-term goals that aren't just plans, but are things I actually pursue every day. I actively save money, I've always been career focused *even as a child* etc. It feels a bit strange for that to be Sp last, but So last doesnt fit either when I am as open as I am, and when I am more of a "symbol."

I need tons of "recharge time" by myself.. and it seems strange for someone who is an ENFP, with a 3 wing and id-fixes, and also Sp last.. why do I need so much time to myself to "do my own thing?" I've always been that way. And I've never had any problem asserting those boundaries either.

-
I've avoided serious committed relationships for much of my life because I felt like I wanted to be independent and have finances all taken care of. I've never avoided it for any reason that I can consider soc-based. I have always pursued Sx-connections (whether romantic or not) of course, but felt uncomfortable with the idea of making commitments like moving in with someone, writing music with them or getting married. I always drew the line because I wanted to establish myself first. (My current boyfriend changed this dynamic because he is my soul mate.)

--

This hits home for me: "I often have big ideas of how to survive, but I am actually really bad at doing it." The problem is, I'm very good at this like when I was out on my own and had a ton of odds stacked against me.. I pulled it together and survived all on my own. I can be very street smart, money smart and resourceful and I'm pretty confident in that arena. But in the grander scheme, like I said in the OP, I haven't found a long-term sustaining income yet. I am working toward major things, and I've built up skills.. but it's like I avoid the professional leaps that might lead to money but don't suit my Sx passions. It's not that I'd turn down money, or an opportunity to work at a crap job for a short time (I've done this a lot), but it's like my outlook just isn't oriented that way until I HAVE to do that in order to actualize my creative or relationship needs. I guess the point is that I push myself tremendously with actualizing my concrete visions, but I do not push myself to actualize financial gain with the same urgency unless I have to do that in order to meet Sx needs (whether thats music or love).


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> Anyone have any opinion on my stack: Sx/So or Sx/Sp ? Or does anyone know what this looks like for 4s in general?


You're questioning again, or questioning still?

I've always seen SX/SO, but you know that already. And why.


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> The only reason I "take over" my social environment is for Sp reasons. For instance, I moved to a dangerous part of a city on my own, with a chronic illness and speaking in a whisper - because I wanted to pursue my dreams in music. I took over the building of rooms in an open loft, and ultimately took over the lease because other people were unreliable. My band was like that too - I was a hard-ass leader but in the end, it was my vision, and nobody could share it with me. Yet I wanted to keep everyone happy and make sure there was "something in it for them" (in both scenarios) so this could work out for all of us. But if there isn't a concrete Sx (band) or Sp (apartment) reason to take charge of a social sphere, I really don't care about it.


I may be in the minority, and I'm surely missing context which you'll likely supply, but "taking over" an apartment doesn't scream SP. Id, maybe. Te, perhaps. But everyone needs a living space, and this reads as more of a means to an end.



> That was a major reason I thought I could be social last, because I can attract negative attnetion and I also can attract attention in a very individualistic way. I always stand out.. I'm never seen as "part of a group" even if I am very much included in a group. IT's like I have a compulsion to be my own person. But again, maybe its just 487 tritype.


Sorry but this is silly :\ You _know _that not-SOC-lasts don't always fit in, don't always seek out a group, and don't always focus on positive attention. I don't even think it's only your tritype, either. Your tritype is the easy answer, sure -- anyone could say "oh yeah, 4 fix, no 4 fits in" but you know it's not that easy, that it's more multifaceted.



> I am not private.. I have boundaries and I take care of myself, but I tend to be open by default.. I can "lose myself" in people - only Sx scenarios (whether romantic or not), not really in "groups" .. but I don't have the Sp instinct to "put the breaks on" until it kicks in like 3 months later. The problem is I do have long-term goals that aren't just plans, but are things I actually pursue every day. I actively save money, I've always been career focused *even as a child* etc. It feels a bit strange for that to be Sp last, but So last doesnt fit either when I am as open as I am, and when I am more of a "symbol."


Not really. I can see an SP-last doing this. 

SOC 7s are often "career driven," aren't they? And 8s. 



> I need tons of "recharge time" by myself.. and it seems strange for someone who is an ENFP, with a 3 wing and id-fixes, and also Sp last.. why do I need so much time to myself to "do my own thing?" I've always been that way. And I've never had any problem asserting those boundaries either.


It's not weird at all. I know a 7w6 ENTP SO/SP who would say the _exact _same thing. 

I mean, I'm guilty of using this same reasoning for my being SP/SX (well, more that I have no people energy to speak of), but in reality these typologies don't really have much to do with people energy, energy level, or "recharge time." It's hard to grasp though, admittedly, what with everyone else saying otherwise.

Plus, you know, you're chronically ill. That tends to really put a damper on energy levels and lengthen recharge time. Not enough spoons.



> I've avoided serious committed relationships for much of my life because I felt like I wanted to be independent and have finances all taken care of. I've never avoided it for any reason that I can consider soc-based. I have always pursued Sx-connections (whether romantic or not) of course, but felt uncomfortable with the idea of making commitments like moving in with someone, writing music with them or getting married.


No, it wouldn't be for SOC reasons. Your second instinct "helps" the first, not hinder or stifle it. I'd _gingerly_ posit that maybe it's for SX reasons. SX independence, SX obsessions, SX rushes... Generally speaking, I'd expect SX/SO to be more commitment-avoidant than SX/SP. 



> This hits home for me: "I often have big ideas of how to survive, but I am actually really bad at doing it." The problem is, I'm very good at this like when I was out on my own and had a ton of odds stacked against me.. I pulled it together and survived all on my own. I can be very street smart, money smart and resourceful and I'm pretty confident in that arena. But in the grander scheme, like I said in the OP, I haven't found a long-term sustaining income yet.


IMO, there's two choices in life: pull it together or let it fall apart. Most people pull it together, one way or another. You did. Good job!

But yeah. How independent are you? Financially, medically, emotionally? Your support system is huge, iirc... Even those you might not think of as "support" could potentially be included (ex: you know I'd help you if I could, though we rarely talk in length). You've met and gotten close to many people from PerC, which I could never even fathom; those could count.

I guess what I'm getting down to is: you have solid support from your parents, you learned a crapton by being sick since a teenager, and you've always been relatively sensible and driven. But none of that really means SP. I'd say you're SP-last in the same way Vajra is SOC-last: you have a decent handle on each instinct. 

It just seems to me that you "play" so much more in the SOC arena than you do in the SP arena. I can't recall one instance where I've seen you "have fun" or "indulge" with SP, but I can recall many in which SOC could be argued for. (Mostly PerC arguments, tbh.)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> It just seems to me that you "play" so much more in the SOC arena than you do in the SP arena. I can't recall one instance where I've seen you "have fun" or "indulge" with SP, but I can recall many in which SOC could be argued for. (Mostly PerC arguments, tbh.)


What would you say are examples of play/fun in the Sp arena?


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> But yeah. How independent are you? Financially, medically, emotionally? Your support system is huge, iirc...


I don't think independence matters so much as focus on dependencies (and as you mentioned commitments) matters. First of all, we are a social animal to begin with, so we preserved ourselves by living in a group, for most of the existence of humanity. Independence as seen in the modern day individualized western civilization shouldn't be confused with instinct, though there is arguably a relation. For instance, 1000 years ago in my country, with half of the country flooded from time to time, it would be extremely hard to just separate yourself and survive on your own, because you didn't like the way another looked at you. Communities lived on artificial dwelling hills like this...


----------



## Animal

First of all.. thanks for doing the breakdown. I know you have made your case before.. I was going to ask you or tag you, but I read on this thread that you were in recluse mode so I decided not to bother you with enneagram questions, especially since I've been mostly MIA for a few months myself. Good to see you back though 



Paradigm said:


> I may be in the minority, and I'm surely missing context which you'll likely supply, but "taking over" an apartment doesn't scream SP. Id, maybe. Te, perhaps. But everyone needs a living space, and this reads as more of a means to an end.


Yeah - the thing is, everyone had to survive and I was the one who took all the responsibility fast and took control. Everyone else relied on me to do this, and nobody else was competent enough. That's why I ended up in that position. I'm not trying to tout myself as being some major glamorous leader or something, but I am just good at organization and managing and money and things like that - when I need to be. If I can avoid it, all the better, but I've never had any issue stepping up to the plate. Also, arguably, I didnt HAVE to - I could have lived with my parents and they always had a room for me - but I've been tremendously independent of spirit even after I became dependent on medications, and spent my late teens & most of my 20s living elsewhere and scrambling to survive with an illness. My healthy and well-employed friends were not as good at this (including high Sp people, so it might be irrelevant) - and ended up crashing on my couch when they lost their apartments etc. Aside from two married couples, I was the only one out of anyone I know who never lost my apartment, who managed to keep my place and my standing even with chaotic roommates coming and going, who never had to ask my parents to borrow extra money because someone missed rent, etc. This was a much bigger job than it may sound like. I didn't find the responsibility particularly daunting, even with the illness, because I was determined to live my dream. But after a while with changing laws, gentrification and other complex factors it no longer worked for me, so I left of my own volition. I never wanted to live in a city again. But I could have continued to make it work; it just wasn't worth it anymore. My apartment ended up being a haven for people who were abused, kicked out, lost work, etc. And my roommates early on would have lost the apartment if I hadn't pulled lots of strings and pulled lots of ffactors together. To be fair some of the factors involved talking to people, making agreements, talking to the apartment owners and superintendent, making deals etc.



> Sorry but this is silly :\ You _know _that not-SOC-lasts don't always fit in, don't always seek out a group, and don't always focus on positive attention. I don't even think it's only your tritype, either. Your tritype is the easy answer, sure -- anyone could say "oh yeah, 4 fix, no 4 fits in" but you know it's not that easy, that it's more multifaceted.


Yeah of course. I was just organizing my thoughts here. I have made that case myself about Soc. The thing is Sx/So in particular is known to be a very "out there" type of stacking. So I just wanted to mention it for commentary.



> Not really. I can see an SP-last doing this.
> 
> SOC 7s are often "career driven," aren't they? And 8s.


I'm not career driven. It's more, passion driven. I'm driven to live my music and art and writing dreams.. to express myself. I've been that way all my life. I've never been into "jobs," though I have worked jobs out of necessity. I have worked hard to develop skills in a concrete way, such as music writing, music playing, writing, some background type things for my novel, etc, but I've never worked to develop regular "Sp" skills that can sell. Everything is about expressing myself.



> It's not weird at all. I know a 7w6 ENTP SO/SP who would say the _exact _same thing.
> 
> I mean, I'm guilty of using this same reasoning for my being SP/SX (well, more that I have no people energy to speak of), but in reality these typologies don't really have much to do with people energy, energy level, or "recharge time." It's hard to grasp though, admittedly, what with everyone else saying otherwise.
> 
> Plus, you know, you're chronically ill. That tends to really put a damper on energy levels and lengthen recharge time. Not enough spoons.


Yeah.. but I sat alone in the music room practicing, or in the library researching or writing during lunch at school before I was ever sick. I used to be in theater as a kid, and while I could be social and people liked me in that setting (not so much in school where I was an outcast), I would socialize a little bit but spend most of the time when I wasnt on stage reading, writing etc. I've just never had much energy for socializing. There is usually "one close person" but usually it's someone who can sit beside me on their own laptop or with their own book before there were laptops. I can't engage constantly, never could.

I don't know if its related to instincts.



> No, it wouldn't be for SOC reasons. Your second instinct "helps" the first, not hinder or stifle it. I'd _gingerly_ posit that maybe it's for SX reasons. SX independence, SX obsessions, SX rushes... Generally speaking, I'd expect SX/SO to be more commitment-avoidant than SX/SP.


That makes sense. I am absolutely NOT commitment avoidant when it comes to my writing, music.. I'm the most dedicated person alive there, and not even passionate love will get in the way, which is part of why I stay single. I needed to find someone who didn't need me to have kids, who could accept that those passions will always be crucial for me.. or else I would not get involved. Several of my friends were artists but they did not have the kind of commitment I did, in the sense that they threw it away the moment someone wanted to marry them. I turned down many chances for this partly because I was waiting for my Sx ideal/ soul mate (who I found, yay!!) and partly because I saw every relationship or potential relationship as a block to my real passions, which I was more committed to all my life than anyone else (in my view, and most of my friends would see it that way too).



> IMO, there's two choices in life: pull it together or let it fall apart. Most people pull it together, one way or another. You did. Good job!


haha thanks. You too 



> But yeah. How independent are you? Financially, medically, emotionally? Your support system is huge, iirc... Even those you might not think of as "support" could potentially be included (ex: you know I'd help you if I could, though we rarely talk in length). You've met and gotten close to many people from PerC, which I could never even fathom; those could count.
> 
> I guess what I'm getting down to is: you have solid support from your parents, you learned a crapton by being sick since a teenager, and you've always been relatively sensible and driven. But none of that really means SP. I'd say you're SP-last in the same way Vajra is SOC-last: you have a decent handle on each instinct.


This is a good point about a support system although I don't see it that way. wheN I need support the most I am more inclined to be alone, listen to music, take a hot bath, work out too much, and make way too much art. I remember when I was most depressed and traumatized, I was in art school and you got credits by handing in work at the end (regardless if you went to class or not). I did go to ALL my classes, and also handed in enough work that I could have gotten at least 3x the maximum credits, which they weren't allowed to give me. The judges/ professors were concerned by how much work I produced, and how intense it all was, how much attention went into each. They asked if I had friends, if I was doing coccaine, if I ever slept. Truth is I don't want to do anything except bury myself in creative expression , long walks and listening to music when I need support the most. I have recently learned to rely more on others which has been a major growth for me, and is part of why I think I'm able to have a better relationship too. It is something I worked hard on and I'm fortunate to have friends like you, Vajra and other people I've met here who are open to that, even if we don't keep up every day (which I cannot do). It means the world. And my perc experience has changed me in the sense that it's easier to lean on others when I am most broken, rather than just turn to art. (Though I have mixd feelings about this in terms of my development as an artist.) I've always been pretty open about letting others lean on me in their darkest times,however, which I know goes against soc last; but I had too much shame/pride to do it myself.


Also worth pointing out maybe, I had enough money (From singing & gigs) saved up by age 16 that I was going to move out but my illness came on and I couldn't. I have naturally had a very very independent spirit, but the illness made it completely illogical for me to push to be away from my parents, though I have fought that logic at every turn in a dire need to be on my own and not live by anyone else's rules. That is another way in which I've grown - I've learned to accept this interdependence a bit more. It still irks me, but I'm able to cope better and make better decisions.

Again, not sure if thats related to instinct. But it's not like leaning on others was my first choice or my natural, in-born way of operating.

I have always had friends I COULD turn to, as well as my family, however. So yeah, I had a support network, whether I chose to engage it with my "deep issues" or not. Usually one friend at a time would know of my deeper feelings, and nobody else. Sometimes nobody at all. Now I'm just more open.



> It just seems to me that you "play" so much more in the SOC arena than you do in the SP arena. I can't recall one instance where I've seen you "have fun" or "indulge" with SP, but I can recall many in which SOC could be argued for. (Mostly PerC arguments, tbh.)


Yeah. I could see that. How would one play in Sp though? Would hot showers, swimming, gym and listening to music count? Or working hard on projects that are clearly motivated by Sx..lol?


----------



## Animal

@_Paradigm_
Regardless of all that, I am actually leaning heavily toward Sx/So.... but I am just mentioning my Sx/Sp case because, well there's a reason I typed that way for years. It just seemed so _obvious_ , but I really do _feel_ more like Sx/SO energy descriptions match me, even if I can't explain it with logic. I guess what I'm hoping is to understand soc instinct better, or how it works as a second instinct, or something. Because there are just some things that make Sp last seem ridiculous, yet energetically I can't justify anything but Sx/So.. eeee

/needs more Ti or Te


----------



## Animal

mimesis said:


> I don't think independence matters so much as focus on dependencies (and as you mentioned commitments) matters.


That's another good point - 

I have usually kept up with my health, finances etc, and fitness when I'm healthy enough to exercise. Sometimes my diet or fitness slips but whose doesn't. I've rarely slipped with finances either, though when I do it's always for Sx reasons.

Socially, I haven't always "kept up." A chief complaint I receive from friends is "you didn't call me for months!" to which I reply, if you wanted to talk why didn't you call me?? This sort of thing catches me off guard as I had no idea it even mattered. I am always open and welcome to talk to friends ... of course if I'm busy it's different, but I'll find time when they need me.. but they often feel left out of my life because I got caught up in something ( a project or now, love) and didn't "keep up" at my usual pace. They worry I don't like them anymore, or i'm mad at them, or they just don't matter to me.

It might be a case for Soc-second though, since they seem to WORRY about it whereas for me it's just something I almost take for granted. I don't mean that in a mean way, as I truly appreciate my friends and who they are as people and I do prioritize when someone needs me, as well as I possibly can.. but I don't sit around worrying about why people didn't call me and so forth. Whereas I worry about this TREMENDOUSLY with Sx interests.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Animal, finally responding!

It's not that I didn't wanna offend you, actually my thoughts are quite flattering imo, but I didn't know how to put them in words without it sounding too stereotypical, plus my English vocabulary just isn't good enough for explaining some things. Actually no language is enough, I'm a bit of a hand talker
But basically, it's the sp last energy. Nothing more than that but it's such a big reason by itself.
You share so much. Not only that you share _a lot_, but it's in a way that's...I don't know, feels like it's there for everyone, we are your audience and it feels secure in that "This is what I really want to share with all these people so I'm gonna do it" kind of way.
It's awareness of all these people and wanting to share with them while still primarily focusing on your Sx experience rather than obsessing over people. That's what I feel is So second.
So last 4 would give off a more self-absorbed, withdrawn vibe.

I just see no SP in you (other than wanting to survive, which comes with being alive regardless of enneagram and instincts, I think) and can't see you as So last, at all

So yeah, Sx/So each:


----------



## galactic collision

Quoting myself from another post bc it's more relevant over in the Enneagram forums than in General Chat.



just for the spark said:


> I was talking to a (sx 4w?) friend about happiness. He was saying that he thinks that happiness is childish - then he said, childish is not the right word, it's more like...delusional. I asked, Do you think the world has more bad than good, then, more misery than joy? He said, No. I think it's neutral.
> 
> I tried to understand this mentality but couldn't. And then I realized it's the same as my own, but opposite. Because I also believe the world is pretty neutral. Bad things happen, and good things too. More importantly, good and bad are value judgments that WE place on the world. The world (or the universe) doesn't do good or bad to us. We take the things that happen to us and judge them "good" or "bad." So the world has to be neutral because that's the order...and also the disorder.
> 
> And of course I'm not saying that hunger and poverty could be good when seen through an optimistic viewpoint. Only that the "natural order" doesn't discriminate, positive or negative. It simply falls where it does. Neutral.
> 
> Anyway, so I was like, "I guess your point of view - that optimism is delusional - comes from the same place as my point of view - that optimism is necessary. We both agree that the world isn't inherently predisposed for good or bad. We just each choose to focus on something different."
> 
> Also a strong example of 4 vs 7 in xNFPs (although I'm not 100% on his type, he might be any IxFx, so I should just say it's a strong example of 4 vs 7). I feel like we understand each other very well even though we have totally different viewpoints. I wonder if he feels the same, though, since I respond to but do not mirror him in the way I believe type 4s (especially sexual 4s) so desperately want.
> 
> I was also talking to him about my thing where I wanted 30% more brainpower and he was like, "I feel like that would make me even more neurotic than I already am" and conversely I was like "I feel like I would have more logical tools at my disposal to be able to set my emotions aside when making decisions" so somehow for him 30% more brainpower means 30% more emotions, and for me 30% more brainpower means 30% more control over emotions. 4 vs 7 again.
> 
> I'm probably going to quote this post into some enneagram thread, since it's much more relevant over there than it is here. I just wanted to share.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

I wasn't sure of whether to reply to this or not, but decided to do so. 



Animal said:


> 1. each type has their own outlook. For instance, some types are simply more willing to recognize trauma, more prone to self-victimization, more likely to gloss over the trauma. For instance, I know a 7 who grew up poor and whose parents died young and was basically neglected but says "I've had an amazing, wonderful life." I've also posted about this before - but my brother was born when I was 2.5 yrs old, and it's supposedly "normal" for a child to act out and be jealous at that age if a sibling is born, but none of my friends got as angry, envious and awful and hung up on this abandonment as I did, comparing everything the mother gave to each of them for years, feeling such burning anger and envy that defined their whole childhood, to the point where, when you look through my photos for years after he's born, you can see the 4ish sad eyes, anger, tantrums etc, even in my parents' "nice little photo collection..." so arguably, type is inborn and will contribute to how you view your upbringing.
> 
> 2. There is also real trauma which can happen to everyone and at a certain point it's undeniable, though I have also seen 7s completely gloss over this and rationalize how perfect their life is, until they absolutely can't anymore. Ofc, not all 7s will do this. I know a 4 who isn't traumatized and she is just as excessive with emotions as I am, but in some ways she's more together despite being 17.. more hopeful, more wide-eyed.. because my innocence and hope was all but destroyed. (Love is restoring it<3 <3 ) So, yeah, real trauma will actually change the shape of one's brain..


I recall one interpretation of enneatypes in childhood is essentially sensitivity to certain perceived hurts. Something may not have been meant a certain way, maybe wouldn't even get a reaction from other types of children, but to a particular child witha certain type, some perceived slight is devastating. 

I guess I was thinking of posts like what @mimesis said, about fearing abandonment in adulthood being quite different from experiencing it when one is very young and helpless. All my bad stuff happened after that helpless phase; how much can it affect me? Or anyone else in a similar position. 



> and at that point I tend to veer away from enneagram typings because I don't want to presume things about people, but to be perfectly honest, I do that out of respect and kindness, but deep down, I do think that people's specific trauma-reactions are type specific.... please don't shoot me, anyone.. :x


I think that's perfectly reasonable. After all, people _do_ react differently to trauma, this provides a potential reason why. 



> 3. Right now I am in a lot of pain and having trouble moving normally due to illness, but I'm so in love that I feel happy and talkative and amazing. When I'm hurting over abandonment issues, I'm much more miserable than when I was on my death bed with illness. Yes that is a fact, I am seriously not exaggerating. Heartache and heartbreak and fear of abandonment has been _more_ traumatic for me than actual trauma, though my trauma did serve to augment those fears, because who could love someone in my condition? Another case for outlook


Actually, I can kind of understand that outlook. Obviously not from anything personal - I 'm not even going to pretend I know what real trauma is like - but a thought I had a little while ago. It's a different take, but similar in principle: losing someone to abandonment, having them walk out of your life somehow, is far worse than losing them to death. There's an impersonality to death, it has nothing to do with you, it was most likely out of your hands. When someone _leaves_, however, it's so easy to wonder what you did wrong, to think and believe that there's something wrong with _you_, who _you_ are, what _you_ did. And that, I think, is a much harder wound to heal than loss through death. Because the person's still out there, with better people than you, if you couldn't keep their love (including friendship), what's to say you can keep anyone else's? Or at least, that's how one's thoughts might go. Guess this is my Nine talking. 




> 4. I'm just babbling now


Nooo, you're not! If anything I'm the one babbling.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@_mimesis_
Lol, that social 4 description sounds pretty pathetic, but it is kind of relatable... (I mean, I don't care for poetry and such much, but stuff like "and an unconscious hope that their suffering will somehow redeem them.") Doubt I'm a social 4 though, or maybe I'm in denial because it doesn't seem like a pleasant thing to admit (not that 4 is supposed to care about "pleasantness" lol). =P


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Mair I'm 100% certain you have a 1 fix @KINGoftheAMAZONS you know, I've been thinking about your type recently, and you actually come across more like a Social 2. I considered 1, 6 or Social 7 in the past, but you are sturdier and more consistent than a 6 or Social 7 and warmer than a 1. in general, Social 1 is a much colder, authoritative personality, but, more importantly, you are people>principles rather than principles>people like a 1. I initially disregarded 2 in favor of Social 7, but Social 2w1s sometimes come in a Mother Bear/"Champion of the Oppressed" variety as opposed to your more typical, glory-seeking/queen bee flavor of Social 2.


----------



## Mair

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Mair I'm 100% certain you have a 1 fix


Thanks , I'm actually not quite sure about my type or enneagram . I'll look into it.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Can someone tell me my image fix? I mean forums are probably where it can be observed, so. 3w4 ? 2w1 ? 4 ?

I'm thinking 4 maybe, because balloons. I mean who loves balloons other than me ?

Ps: I'm not drunk.


----------



## Kisshoten

crashbandicoot said:


> Can someone tell me my image fix? I mean forums are probably where it can be observed, so. 3w4 ? 2w1 ? 4 ?
> 
> I'm thinking 4 maybe, because balloons. I mean who loves balloons other than me ?
> 
> Ps: I'm not drunk.


Don't you dislike 4?


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Annatar said:


> Don't you dislike 4?


yes  but I only have 3 options and I dislike 3 either, also, its not like I'm the epitome of 2 fixer.


----------



## piano

how can i get in on this?


----------



## Animal

Hmmmm.

Socionics - the16types.info - The Three Ranges of Instinctual Stackings


According to this description I would be Sx/Sp. I don't relate to any of the last three Sx/So descriptions:


_The three ranges for sx/so:

fireside sx/so - strong sx, weak soc and weaker sp. pulls from sp/sx shadow to intensify sx. exhibitionism, wild abandon, most 'on fire' of all stacks or stack ranges.

flirter sx/so - strong sx, moderate soc, weak sp. highly sociable and extroverted per type, flirtatious interaction style, more coy than firesiders but more risque than coolsiders.

coolside sx/so - strong sx, strong soc, weak sp. pulls from so/sp secondary, political activist streak, 'cooled' by soc with some intellectual reserve, channels sx into social causes._



But this one in bold sounds just like me:


_The three ranges for sx/sp:

*sx/sp seducer (weak sp) - sx in full command produces an active recruiter of potential mates; but being sx/sp this remains in the yin mode of seducing. charismatic and overtly sexualized, arguably the most purely sx of all stacks and ranges. draws from so/sx shadow to liven up sx into an erotic playfulness and to keep sx far ahead of their relatively nominal sp. an emotional yearning to their mating ritual; an inherently unstable range that can lead to a pattern of serial heartbreak. often confused for sx/so. *

sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want. 

sx/sp wanderer (strong sp) - the most clasically 'blocked' of the sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the body. paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the sx/sp's. pulls from sp/so to ensure the sx flood is contained by the sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. quietly charged but muted, and can seem self pres first. _

--

And if this is true, this would explain why I _seem_ Sx/So, but I have always been on top of sp matters...


I don't know


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> _*draws from so/sx shadow to liven up sx into an erotic playfulness and to keep sx far ahead of their relatively nominal sp. an emotional yearning to their mating ritual; an inherently unstable range that can lead to a pattern of serial heartbreak. often confused for sx/so.*_


Gotta admit I wonder what that shadow stuff is about.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@MuChApArAdOx
_Social_ 4? 

you are one of the most un-Social 4 people I've ever met. 
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...-description-according-beatrice-chestnut.html

on the other hand, I hadn't really considered it, but _Sexual_ 4 could be a very good fit for you
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...-description-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


----------



## Mr inappropriate

> I think I'm much more image concious than I've ever admitted, even to myself. For example lets say, I know a guest likes author X, and I happen to have one of his books in library. I'd put that somewhere where it can be seen easily.


^^What is this ? So first ? Type 3 or 2 ? Or just Fe ?

@Kipposhi @Annatar


----------



## FakeLefty

i cant play the piano said:


> how can i get in on this?


Ask if you're mistyped and others may answer.


----------



## piano

@FakeLefty oh i see. i'll give it a go, even though this might be a little hard for me considering i don't know very many people yet.

i think i'm an xSFP but i suppose that's irrelevant since this is an ennegream thread... i actually have no idea what my enneagram type is but i frequently score high on 4, 6, and 7. for a while i thought i was a type 8 on the enneagram but i'm nowhere near as intense, confrontational, aggressive, or confident as the ones i've seen (mostly in fictional settings).

i had someone type me a 3 based on my thread on the what's my type forum though. what kind of information can i give you guys to help you call me out? i doubt these 5 sentences are gonna help much

i'm 93% sure i'm an sx!


----------



## Darkbloom

Going with 3 for now, unless someone has a strong argument against it


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Going with 3 for now, unless someone has a strong argument against it


Oh, what happened to 2?


----------



## Darkbloom

Pressed Flowers said:


> Oh, what happened to 2?


Nothing special happened to 2, but I typed as a 3 for so long, it made sense, and then all of a sudden 2 (and other things) came out of nowhere but no one ever really said _why I'm not a 3_, the only reason I got was "3 is competency, you're a 2", which isn't a real reason imo and could even be interpreted as offensive if I cared about their idea of competency :laughing:
There are some other vague reasons, I often talk about them, but they are...vague. 
Anyway, if I am a 3, great, if I'm not then maybe even better, but I'd like to know what's so non 3 about me other than those vague things that may or may not contradict 3.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

crashbandicoot said:


> ^^What is this ? So first ? Type 3 or 2 ? Or just Fe ?


To be honest, I don't really know what that is, if anything. Maaaaaybe Fe.


----------



## Ace Face

Occams Chainsaw said:


> One would assume the question was open to those who do know me. Appreciate the quick response though.


And why would you assume that? Have you not seen n00bs try to type people before? xD


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Ace Face said:


> And why would you assume that? Have you not seen n00bs try to type people before? xD


Does a noobs affinity to typing people negate my lack of interest in their opinion? I think not!


----------



## Ace Face

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Does a noobs affinity to typing people negate my lack of interest in their opinion? I think not!


Right, but we weren't talking about your interest in what they have to say, were we? I think not!


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Ace Face said:


> Right, but we weren't talking about your interest in what they have to say, were we? I think not!


Indeed we were, since the premise of my original proposition is contingent on that very fact.

Are you,by chance, ENTP? It seems you're quite quickly side tracked by pseudo argument. Nonetheless, again, thank you for your good luck.


----------



## Ace Face

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Indeed we were, since the premise of my original proposition is contingent on that very fact.


I disagree. This all started as banter regarding why you believed people who don't know you wouldn't respond. Nothing was made mention of whether or not you cared about their responses until that post above. You were just trying to dodge the question... the one you still haven't answered... the one I originally asked. Why would you assume that those who don't know you won't respond? 



> Are you,by chance, ENTP It seems you're quite quickly side tracked by pseudo argument. Nonetheless, again, thank you for your good luck.


If you didn't care for the "pseudo argument", then why do you keep responding to it?  

If it sounds like typism, and looks like typism... lol. 




* *




P.S. I'm not an ENTP.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I'm probably an 8, even though I've been typing as a 3. Any thoughts?


If its between those two I'd say 3 > 8. Possibly even a head type but I don't see you as gut triad. Just my opinion.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I'm probably an 8, even though I've been typing as a 3. Any thoughts?


Based on our conversations, you're definitely an 8.

It's great to see how you've integrated to be so helpful and caring for others, though.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

TheProphetLaLa said:


> If its between those two I'd say 3 > 8. Possibly even a head type but I don't see you as gut triad. Just my opinion.


Uh huh. I tend to agree that I am probably a 358 tritype and my behaviours generally are 3-oriented but there are 2 issues I have with typing as a 3: I don't tend to have issues with shame; The more antisocial behaviours I exhibit aren't in order to be admired (do I come across as somebody who wants you to admire me? ). Then the issue with type 5 is this underlying anxiety. At least with 8 the fear of being dominated is something that makes sense to me. 

Maybe I'm a type 7. Could you buy that?


----------



## bleghc

@Occams Chainsaw 8w9 as a fix, maybe.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Savage Snowflake said:


> @Occams Chainsaw 8w9 as a fix, maybe.


Why?

I think it'd be 8w7 which is why I made the jump from 8 to 7 in my post above.


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Uh huh. I tend to agree that I am probably a 358 tritype and my behaviours generally are 3-oriented but there are 2 issues I have with typing as a 3: I don't tend to have issues with shame; The more antisocial behaviours I exhibit aren't in order to be admired (do I come across as somebody who wants you to admire me? ). Then the issue with type 5 is this underlying anxiety. At least with 8 the fear of being dominated is something that makes sense to me.
> 
> Maybe I'm a type 7. Could you buy that?


Right and I was actually thinking about that but you're probably taking these fears and one word catch phrases too literally. You have to understand that these underlying fears are complicated/subtle and they've been basically "commercialized" so they're easier for us to understand. Most likely these won't be literal thoughts going through your head. 

And maybe you don't have issues with shame but you don't seem to be a very emotional person in general. Shame, anger, fear. Or at least you_ don't show it_. 

Also all of these "    ". What even is this? Something about it comes across as fake. Like you're either mocking or I don't know. It just feels off to me and also doesn't seem like something a type 8 would do. You also don't come off as reactive, which is again type 8.

Yeah I could see you as a type 7. Why not?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Also all of these "    ". What even is this? Something about it comes across as fake. Like you're either mocking or I don't know. It just feels off to me and also doesn't seem like something a type 8 would do. You also don't come off as reactive, which is again type 8.


Paha 

That actually made me smile.


----------



## piano

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I'm probably an 8, even though I've been typing as a 3. Any thoughts?


oh i've always just assumed 5 for you. most likely 5w6


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Ace Face said:


> Yeah, you probably should. 1s can also be instinctual... as can any other type. Generalizing around here is... yeah. Just expect to get pounced on, lol.


Yeah, every type can be anything I'm sure. And I'm aware there's enough reactive people on the internet that everything I said could get pounced on, even if I added a hundred disclaimers or so.


----------



## Ace Face

Distortions said:


> Yeah, every type can be anything I'm sure. *And I'm aware there's enough reactive people on the internet that everything I said could get pounced on, even if I added a hundred disclaimers or so.*


Ain't that the fucking truth? xD


----------



## cinnabun

Soooooooo.....like....can someone please explain to me why I'm such a 2? Even though it's painfully obvious I'm not?


----------



## Ace Face

Rinnie said:


> Soooooooo.....like....can someone please explain to me why I'm such a 2? Even though it's painfully obvious I'm not?


Maybe you should ask @Animal.


----------



## piano

so 468 feels like a good fit but something about my self-typing feels a little off. if anyone has any objections/additional thoughts to add, i'd be more than open to hearing them


----------



## Ace Face

i cant play the piano said:


> so 468 feels like a good fit but something about my self-typing feels a little off. if anyone has any objections/additional thoughts to add, i'd be more than open to hearing them


Why do you think you're triple reactive?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Rinnie said:


> Soooooooo.....like....can someone please explain to me why I'm such a 2? Even though it's painfully obvious I'm not?


you're not. you're a 7w6 (possibly 6w7, but I don't see any reason to doubt 7 atm)


----------



## counterintuitive

*self-pres dom w/ inferior Si?*

Haven't been around these forums much but questioning my instinctual variants. Thought I was sp-first, which still seems probable, but also identify with sp-last, I think due to inferior Si...

I'm preoccupied/obsessed with some self-pres concerns
- financial security: preoccupied with money, making money/schemes/busine$$ ideas, investing, retirement, etc. (I automate the day-to-day monotony)
- not losing stuff or leaving it behind
- maintaining an independent sense of self and personal space apart from any groups I'm in
- can't fully grasp the extent of my physical vulnerability, so I overcompensate by obsessing over it. Don't trust myself at all in the physical world. Lack confidence in physical/athletic matters. Very uncoordinated and unphysical, sense of insecurity about it. Leading me to obsess over physical safety.
- weird obsession with making sure I drink enough water. I keep a tally lol.

And others, I miss entirely
- bodily: virtually no attention paid to my physical state unless I'm exhausted, sick, or something is really uncomfortable
- health: I either obsess over my health/physical well-being or (more often) ignore it altogether - no middle ground. Kind of vacillate back and forth
- environmental: inattention to temperature, smells etc (with the notable exception of annoying noises - I pick up on those pretty quickly); can't tell if familiar food/drink tastes different

Even the modicum of routine and order I have in my life takes obsessive focus to maintain, and is both stressful and exhausting. But I can't not obsess.

So, do I sound more sp-first, middle or last?


----------



## Kisshoten

coagulate said:


> Haven't been around these forums much but questioning my instinctual variants. Thought I was sp-first, which still seems probable, but also identify with sp-last, I think due to inferior Si...
> 
> I'm preoccupied/obsessed with some self-pres concerns
> - financial security: preoccupied with money, making money/schemes/busine$$ ideas, investing, retirement, etc. (I automate the day-to-day monotony)
> - not losing stuff or leaving it behind
> - maintaining an independent sense of self and personal space apart from any groups I'm in
> - can't fully grasp the extent of my physical vulnerability, so I overcompensate by obsessing over it. Don't trust myself at all in the physical world. Lack confidence in physical/athletic matters. Very uncoordinated and unphysical, sense of insecurity about it. Leading me to obsess over physical safety.
> - weird obsession with making sure I drink enough water. I keep a tally lol.
> 
> And others, I miss entirely
> - bodily: virtually no attention paid to my physical state unless I'm exhausted, sick, or something is really uncomfortable
> - health: I either obsess over my health/physical well-being or (more often) ignore it altogether - no middle ground. Kind of vacillate back and forth
> - environmental: inattention to temperature, smells etc (with the notable exception of annoying noises - I pick up on those pretty quickly); can't tell if familiar food/drink tastes different
> 
> Even the modicum of routine and order I have in my life takes obsessive focus to maintain, and is both stressful and exhausting. But I can't not obsess.
> 
> So, do I sound more sp-first, middle or last?


I'm not very good with instincts at all, but if it makes you feel any better or helps you understand your stacking better I'll show you what I identify with and what I think are the reasons for such identification. 

I'm Sp second (I came to that conclusion as I have a lot of Sx qualities and I can't identify with So ones at all while exhibiting a fair share of Sp). All the things I relate to from above I have marked in green. The other stuff I don't really relate to. 

It is said that the dominant instinct is the aspect of self about which one is most preoccupied. I don't quite recall the source for this, however. For the time being, assuming the aforesaid to be true, you seem to be an Sp dom/aux. Inferior Si just makes the Sp preference more labored, I guess. I feel overwhelmed with concerns about physical well-being but at the same time, it is fairly important to me. More important than public-relations (I mean socializing, etc. PR is probably not a good choice of words ) anyway. 

In any case, Sp last would mean neglect or utter disregard for physical well being (which, I admit, is a little hard to imagine for me, personally). 

Aww heck, another Sp last would be your best bet of finding out whether or not you are sp last. I should probably not have answered. lol sorry


----------



## Kitsune Love

INFJ/4w5/4-7-1

Not sure about my subtype and it's driving me crazy. If somebody could help me figure it out, I would be so grateful.

I'm willing to answer any questions 


* *




Sexual:
+ I am highly romantically focused and I believe strongly in the soulmate thing, not just with partners but friends. 
+ I'm always strongly invested in someone whether it's a friend or a person from work or from a tv show/band/cartoon/game etc.
- I don't consider myself very competitive. When I see a potential love interest that has the attention of other girls, I wont even bother. 
- I am very rarely aggressive.

Self Preservation:
+ I can be EXTREMELY private, so much so that I have trouble posting my thoughts and feelings here on the forum. I was hesitant to write this up.
+ I am very stingy when it comes to my time and energy... VERY stingy.
+ I'm fussy about my environment and the food I eat and I spend a lot of time making my space look precisely as I want it.
- I care little about finances, health and fitness. I'm comfortable with myself and my status. 

Social:
I'm quite confident that this is my blind spot.


----------



## Brains

If you think 1 so doesn't fit, shoot. Shotguns, nailguns, bazookas allowed.


----------



## Animal

Brains said:


> If you think 1 so doesn't fit, shoot. Shotguns, nailguns, bazookas allowed.


I don't have much of an opinion on your type but, I am curious - have you considered 5?


----------



## Brains

Animal said:


> I don't have much of an opinion on your type but, I am curious - have you considered 5?


Given that I'm an INTJ, it was the first type I investigated. Many typical traits of investigativeness and the like can easily be explained by Ni+Te (or in an INTP's case, Ti+Ne) cognition. Curiosity, look first, act later, etc. Many parts just overlap and I'd rather not type by those. 

Of the not inevitably overlapping parts things like omnipresent mentions of the "not enough of me" mentality, a kind of frightful attitude towards the world, tendency to withdraw to spare resources, "I'm small and can't influence things" (because I view things in way too big of a scale and paralyze myself into hopelessness and inaction) type thinking... all of that is more or less alien and just doesn't feel right.

I have an INTP sp5 friend who does exhibit many of those traits. The contrast is pretty severe.


----------



## counterintuitive

Annatar said:


> I'm not very good with instincts at all, but if it makes you feel any better or helps you understand your stacking better I'll show you what I identify with and what I think are the reasons for such identification.
> 
> I'm Sp second (I came to that conclusion as I have a lot of Sx qualities and I can't identify with So ones at all while exhibiting a fair share of Sp). All the things I relate to from above I have marked in green. The other stuff I don't really relate to.
> 
> It is said that the dominant instinct is the aspect of self about which one is most preoccupied. I don't quite recall the source for this, however. For the time being, assuming the aforesaid to be true, you seem to be an Sp dom/aux. Inferior Si just makes the Sp preference more labored, I guess. I feel overwhelmed with concerns about physical well-being but at the same time, it is fairly important to me. More important than public-relations (I mean socializing, etc. PR is probably not a good choice of words ) anyway.
> 
> In any case, Sp last would mean neglect or utter disregard for physical well being (which, I admit, is a little hard to imagine for me, personally).
> 
> Aww heck, another Sp last would be your best bet of finding out whether or not you are sp last. I should probably not have answered. lol sorry


No, this was very helpful. Thanks. I can't identify with so qualities at all, either, and most of the so-last descriptions I've seen on this forum are accurate of me. Like this one:



> *Social-lasts:*
> *the kind of people who just disappear- they're hard to keep in touch with, no one ever knows where they are, you realize you don't have their phone number, and they don't have a facebook account...
> *they never organize social events, or they forget to participate in them (where are you, i thought you were coming to my party??)
> *are liable to make social blunders, but not think its a big deal, even when someone points it out-- or may be very aware of their social ineptitude
> *may forget to think about social expectations/ not pick up on social information


is spot on. I really can't be anything but sp/sx or sx/sp. Especially with the independent sense of self thing, I've seen that associated with sp doms.

I've read that too - that the one you're most preoccupied with is your first instinct, while your second instinct is one that comes naturally to you and you take care of it competently without obsessing. I'm definitely preoccupied with sp concerns, which would indicate it's my first instinct. Whereas I pretty much forget to even think about social instinct stuff. And yeah, inferior Si does make it more labored. I find it exhausting and overwhelming to deal with a lot of these concerns, especially things that require attention to detail or focus on body, but I'm nevertheless obsessed with them.

So basically, my thinking is pretty much sp-dom, even though I can't always actualize my instincts (find it very hard to form/maintain habits/routines, which doesn't help - I basically can't maintain routines at all).


----------



## Hero of Freedom

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Dawn of the Light
> Self Preservation dom? you are So/Sx all the way


Well I basically have a tendency to preserve myself especially if I have unfinished business, etc . To make sure I can eventually pull them off. Might explain why it didn't look that far apart in the test though. About half of the time I can join a group if I believe it's goals will result in something that benefits me or makes life easier for me honestly. Or out of it being close to what I value, etc and maybe even both. Thoughts? I'm extremely private in real life unless I find it safe to not be so.


----------



## Shadow Tag

I know I haven't posted much, I'd be up for this as I post more. Fairly sure that I'm 7w6, but I'm not sure of my tritype or instinctual variants. I _think_ I'm 793 or 794 so/sx/sp, but I could always be wrong, as I'm still learning all of this shiz.


----------



## Gorgon

I'm having doubts about my instincts. Initially thought that I was sp/sx, but come to think of it I'm probably an sx/so.

*Reasons for sx/so*

1. My issues with shame and envy concern sx-related stuff.

2. On that note, I was a late bloomer when it came to dating. All of my friends in high school had boyfriends and girlfriends before I did much to their surprise. I've always been the outspoken, outrageous, shocking, and passionate one of the group. I didn't date not because I was disinterested it was because I had low self-esteem concerning my attractiveness and desirability. I had severe and chronic acne which subsequently led to acne scars. This led to a full-blown depression (other factors contributed as well).

3. When it comes to practical sp stuff, I'm a child. I'm irresponsible and clueless. Ignore that stuff and don't pay much mind to it. I want it to just go away. 

4. I do track the social realm, but not to the degree that so-doms do. I've always been attracted to radical strains of philosophy and politics, and the deconstruction of cultural values. I never had issues surrounding anything so-related. I can engage in that arena when I feel like it, but it seems like more work than it should be. It's pretty tiring at times. 

5. Given the choice between having a good time with friends and/or my partner or sleep because I have to get up early for work, I would choose the former. 

6. @drmiller100 said that I was one of the most expressive and intense people he has ever met. Granted we have only talked online, and have never met in person. Sometimes I don't feel intense even if I come across that way. I (and my bf who's a 7w8 sp/sx) operate at a higher energy level than a lot of people. This intensity also has led to some nasty fights between my bf and I. We don't do lukewarm, and can't tolerate boredom.

7. I come across as more extroverted, wilder, and funner than I actually am.

8. I kind of see myself as a harder edged and more grounded version of Blanche Dubois from _A Streetcar Named Desire_ who I suspect is a 4w3 sx/so. I also relate a lot to the poet Anne Sexton, who's a 4w5 sx/so.

9. I want to be a leader in my field (counseling). I want to get my Masters in counseling in the hopes to better advocate for others and inspire them. Inspire others to follow their ideals and reach their goals in spite of the challenges they face. Complete revolution of the self and personal integration/fulfillment are my goals for others, and I want to fight along side them. I hope to seek societal revolution as well.

10. My parents, who are both sp-doms, get frustrated with my ungroundedness and my lack of practicality.

11. Like I mentioned before, I find sp-related stuff to be anxiety inducing and stressful.


*Reasons I thought I was sp/sx*
1. Depression

2. I see sx/sos as expansive, aggressive, bold, and rockstarish. I can be those and I was more like that as grade schooler and middle schooler.

3. I'm pretty hermetic and introverted (this is probably a function of me being triple withdrawn and having depression).

4. Both of my parents are sp-doms (my mom is a 8w7 sp/so or sp/sx and my dad is a 6w5 sp/so) and extreme pragmatists. I was raised valuing practicality, hard work, strength, independence, and achievement. Anything sx-related was seen as impractical, superfluous, and frankly foolish. I felt stifled and restless in this environment. But they are reliable as hell unlike the more whimsical and capricious me.

5. I value comfort a lot. I'm very sensual. I love to eat, I like being physically comfortable, I dress for comfort not for attention.

6. When unhealthy, I become derelict in my self-preservation needs (bad eating, bad hygiene, bad sleeping patterns). I dress frumpy.

Any thoughts?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Thanatesque
I don't know you well, but from what I've seen I did wonder if you were really So-last. So yes I can see SxSo.


----------



## Gorgon

I was talking about the enneagram with my partner. After some discussion, we came to the conclusion that I'm a 5w4 (my original typing) rather than 4w5. I relate to the psychodynamics of the 5 than the psychodynamics of the 4. My primary fixation is not shame, but anxiety. Of course, that doesn't I don't feel shame. The 5w4 sx/so is the most 4-ish of the five stackings. Me being sp-last mixed with inhibition of the 5 makes sense for me. The sexual 5 describes me to T than any of the 4 stackings.

Compare the 4 sx/so:
This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.

To the 5 sx/so:
This subtype is the most dramatic of the instinctual stackings of type Five. They are less concerned than the social/sexual subtype with social rejection, but take rejection from intimates very much to heart. They have a strong desire to express themselves, and can be the most Four-like of all the instinctual subtypes of type Five.

Not only do they have a strong desire to merge with a significant other, they also want to make their mark in the larger social sphere. The intensity, aggression, counterphobic stance and desire to connect deeply, all combine with the social instinct to produce a highly charged personality. This subtype can become quite accomplished if they are able to form an intimate connection with someone who will help ground them and provide them with a feeling of security. When Fives of this subtype feel a sense of safety due to healthy intimate relationships, they will want to share whatever knowledge, talent or insight they may have.

When unhealthy, this subtype can be very dark, pessimistic and the most confrontational of all the subtypes of Five. They can also become very arrogant.

Source

The descriptions may not be the best, but I relate to the latter description.


----------



## TimeWillTell

I thought I was an 8w7 but I m actually more 7w8.


----------



## counterintuitive

@Swordsman of Mana welcome back to the 7 club. Do you have a strong 1 fix and if so, how did you differentiate between core 1 and core 7?
(I think my 1 fix is pretty strong too tbh)


----------



## einna123

Hello! I'm not super familiar with enneagram, but I'd love to learn more, so if you think you have an idea as to what my type is feel free to let me know!

Right now, I'm thinking 9w8, with a 2 and a 5 in my tritype somewhere...


----------



## Kisshoten

@Swordsman of Mana

Like Coagulate said. WB, brother. <3

So.. what made you return?


----------



## Lakigigar

Thanks thanasteque. Because of you i'm now sure i'm not sp. (also depression and the reasons why i thought was sp are the same) and i'm pretty envious all the time (feeling of concurrence, people that have success in relationships and me not, other countries that get snow, we never had snow (i'm vastly envious) so probably sx/sp here. No social i think.

Would explain why i want to leave everything and leave the country, and go into the wild future because of frustrations.. (mostly because i don't fit in society, because i couldn't succeed in relationships and ... )


----------



## Animal

@Christmas Rose
There have been a lot of debates about your core but I'm going to come out and say that I've given 6 a lot of thought, since people whose skills I respect have typed you at 6. And I'm open to all dissent as always. But from what I've experienced with you, I'd see 2w3 Sx being your core. I know you are considering 2 and wanted some feedback - so I figured I'd post this. To put it bluntly - you focus on which types would be most attractive or lovable to others, and embody that type, in a 'masking' type way. You change your avatar, signature and presentation, even vocabulary to match. To you, LOVE is the thing worth living for, worth dying for, and the only thing that exists. You re-interpret pragmatic concerns which don't line up with your romantic desires as being a rejection of you.. you expect your needs to get fulfilled by relationships. The darkest parts of you are a need to be desired, admired, loved, liked, and become anything you need to in order to ensure that will happen. The Sx-2 description by Chestnut couldn't be more similar to what you do (though of course the Chestnut descriptions are all exaggerated and some are just off). So, I'll just come out and say that based on knowing you for a while now, I see 2Sx. I can't come up with equally dark reasons for 6... security doesn't seem to cut it.. it seems to me, that at base its about desirability and becoming what you deem most desirable in that moment. Your identity issues are beyond enneagram, but I'll leave it to your discretion to disclose what you will about that.... yet still I'd see it as manifesting for the MOTIVATION of being loved or desired. Also, you have a lot of pride about who you're friends with and who loves you. You're clingy with friends and want to 'claim' them with an outward openness that sixes just don't have, they're more cautious in general.


----------



## Golden Rose

Animal said:


> @Christmas Rose
> There have been a lot of debates about your core but I'm going to come out and say that I've given 6 a lot of thought, since people whose skills I respect have typed you at 6. And I'm open to all dissent as always. But from what I've experienced with you, I'd see 2w3 Sx being your core. I know you are considering 2 and wanted some feedback - so I figured I'd post this. To put it bluntly - you focus on which types would be most attractive or lovable to others, and embody that type, in a 'masking' type way. You change your avatar, signature and presentation, even vocabulary to match. To you, LOVE is the thing worth living for, worth dying for, and the only thing that exists. You re-interpret pragmatic concerns which don't line up with your romantic desires as being a rejection of you.. you expect your needs to get fulfilled by relationships. The darkest parts of you are a need to be desired, admired, loved, liked, and become anything you need to in order to ensure that will happen. The Sx-2 description by Chestnut couldn't be more similar to what you do (though of course the Chestnut descriptions are all exaggerated and some are just off). So, I'll just come out and say that based on knowing you for a while now, I see 2Sx. I can't come up with equally dark reasons for 6... security doesn't seem to cut it.. it seems to me, that at base its about desirability and becoming what you deem most desirable in that moment. Your identity issues are beyond enneagram, but I'll leave it to your discretion to disclose what you will about that.... yet still I'd see it as manifesting for the MOTIVATION of being loved or desired. Also, you have a lot of pride about who you're friends with and who loves you. You're clingy with friends and want to 'claim' them with an outward openness that sixes just don't have, they're more cautious in general.


I love you! I needed to tell you in each place you've been posting in. 
I know this was always something you never wanted to do so I appreciate it even more.

I never thought that I'd accept this typing so readily but it's actually making me happy. I came to this conclusion on my own too although being supported in a honest, genuine and flattering way really did it for me! Tapping into my actual needs (and admitting their existence!) and feeling romantically and socially fulfilled really helped. Now that I understand all the reasons behind my escapism, it all clicks.

ENFJ 2w3 7w6 9w? sx/sp.
I'll take suggestions on that lonely wing although I'm still partial to a w8. Old habits die hard, heh.


----------



## FakeLefty

Christmas Rose said:


> I love you! I needed to tell you in each place you've been posting in.
> I know this was always something you never wanted to do so I appreciate it even more.
> 
> I never thought that I'd accept this typing so readily but it's actually making me happy. I came to this conclusion on my own too although being supported in a honest, genuine and flattering way really did it for me! Tapping into my actual needs (and admitting their existence!) and feeling romantically and socially fulfilled really helped. Now that I understand all the reasons behind my escapism, it all clicks.
> 
> ENFJ 2w3 7w6 9w? sx/sp.
> I'll take suggestions on that lonely wing although I'm still partial to a w8. Old habits die hard, heh.


And you come full circle and go back to typing yourself as a 2. It's funny how difficult it can be to type oneself.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

After reading the above comments, I just thought of something: could it be possible to be an sx-dom with a fear of intimacy? Or is that just too ridiculous.

I keep questioning my fixes, too, though I want to brush it off as just being a Nine who identifies with every type.


----------



## Kisshoten

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> After reading the above comments, I just thought of something: could it be possible to be an sx-dom with a fear of intimacy? Or is that just too ridiculous.
> 
> I keep questioning my fixes, too, though I want to brush it off as just being a Nine who identifies with every type.


I've always assumed it was possible. I mean, I am kinda afraid of getting too close because I am afraid of rejection but I fantasize about being close enough to someone to lose all inhibitions and feel no shame or fear in feeling fully and completely revealed/exposed. 

Then again, I don't really get the instincts too well. I kinda treated it like the E/I problem is treated in MBTI. The deeper you go, the sillier the distinctions start to seem. Just my opinion.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> After reading the above comments, I just thought of something: could it be possible to be an sx-dom with a fear of intimacy? Or is that just too ridiculous.


I tend to think that is possible. The fear of rejection that Annatar mentions I can see being intense enough to make some sx-doms flinch.

@_rhythmic_
Oh, I think I'm Sp-dom probably, though sometimes I find myself considering Sp-last because I can be so bad at things associable with Sp. But that's how it can be sometimes I think.

And yeah, I think I sort of get what you mean, and why you consider So. It's a bit hard to say with certainty what impression I get because I don't know you that well, but I do tend to see So as... warmer, in a sense? Although I imagine Enneatype plays into this as well for example. 

Anyway, the way I see it So doesn't have to be about participating in actual groups, but it does enjoy a sense of being connected to or a part of something larger. A focus on the world of people and the webs that connect them. If that's not something you find yourself thinking about much, So-last might still be fair.


----------



## Prada

Prada said:


> I'm honestly wondering if I'm mistyped or not. I used to type as 6w5 due to my anxiety but I used to suffer from depression as well. Currently, I'm way better and I realised that I love risk taking if one of the possible results is success. I love solving problems and success is pretty much my main focus in life (career, money, power ... the usual).
> 
> Eventually, I took a test for tritype (in my signature) and it gave me my main type as 3w4 and suddenly, I realised I related to it way more than to 6. So, I posted a questionnaire here and someone confirmed 3w4. But then, I came across the fantasy Enneagram test and it gave me my main type 6w5. Which made me wonder again since vast majority of people consider it accurate. So, now, I'm pretty much where I was several months back. Unsure whether I'm 6w5 or 3w4. Though, it also gave me a different tritype (8w9 3w2 6w5) which I don't fully agree with. I mean, me 3w2? Um... no.
> 
> And now, I'm really unsure what to think. Currently, I'm focusing on grasping MBTI before I move on to Enneagram so I know very little about the types and I honestly have no idea what my next move should be. I mean, I can still relate to 3, 6 and 8 to a degree but I have no idea which is my main type. Reading up on them didn't really help, I could find arguments for each. Though, I'm definitely so/sp. Any advice?


Anyone any advice on this?


----------



## voicetrocity

*Who:* Me
*What:*Changed my gut fix to 1
*Where:*Here (on PerC) and my mind
*When:*Two days ago
*Why:* Because revelations about my inner "critic"; the basis of which, an 8 just wouldn't care about.


----------



## psychologic

@Annatar I'm glad you relate! We can figure this out together lol. Unfortunately that was just my writing on the social instinct, I have even more to say about my relationship to sx and sp.
@ScientiaOmnisEst I read something about that awhile ago on this page on 16types. Here's the quote:
"coping methods (unhealthy) - scattered attention, lack of focus, sexual promiscuity, *intensely avoiding intense experiences and connections with a fearful and dysfunctional attitude toward sex, intimacy, and other intense "completing" experiences, as is skewed by the secondary instinct*"



Distortions said:


> @_rhythmic_
> Oh, I think I'm Sp-dom probably, though sometimes I find myself considering Sp-last because I can be so bad at things associable with Sp. But that's how it can be sometimes I think.
> 
> And yeah, I think I sort of get what you mean, and why you consider So. It's a bit hard to say with certainty what impression I get because I don't know you that well, but I do tend to see So as... warmer, in a sense? Although I imagine Enneatype plays into this as well for example.
> 
> Anyway, the way I see it So doesn't have to be about participating in actual groups, but it does enjoy a sense of being connected to or a part of something larger. A focus on the world of people and the webs that connect them. If that's not something you find yourself thinking about much, So-last might still be fair.


That's how I feel about sp too!! I'm really bad at tending to sp needs, but I think this could be a reason why I'm actually an sp-dom. My room is messy and I don't do anything about it; I have to pee and I ignore it; I'm hungry and I tune it out until I can't stand it anymore; but I'm conscious of it. I've read that being neglectful of and/or overindulgent in sp needs can signify an unhealthy sp-dom. What are you like with your finances? I'm conscious of it when I'm spending too much and I know I'm getting low on funds, but I just spend anyway and tell myself "it'll work out somehow". Usually I'm inattentive. As long as I can buy lunch and random things and pay rent then I'm fine. But I feel like I _should _care.

Okay I'm feeling more so-last after what you said. The "something larger" part doesn't resonate with me. I do think of how people view me based on my looks/appearance and how I present myself, how other people feel about other people, the dynamics between 2+ people, etc. but idk I'm just kind of aware of it and I find it very interesting. Like, I was at this restaurant once where this young couple was on a date but they both were dead silent, clearly uncomfortable, uneasily staring at their phones, except the boy would occasionally glance at the girl as if dying to say something but biting his tongue. It was so intriguing, I couldn't focus on anything else even after they left. Also I can feel when there's someone in a group who everyone else doesn't like, when someone's feeling left out, that kind of thing. I just like to observe.

Long story short, I just don't connect to the "group" aspect of so, and if this is essential for so-firsts and seconds then I'm probably so-last.


----------



## psychologic

Prada said:


> Anyone any advice on this?


I still have a pretty shabby understanding of enneagram, but what helps me distinguish between being 6-dom and 9-dom is the stress/growth points. 6's growth point is 9, but 9 is just how I normally feel all the time. Now when I'm going into 3, I feel alive, exhilarated, happy, and like I'm going somewhere. So obviously I can't be a 6-dom because 3 is 6's stress point. And during those times I move to 6, I feel terrible. I can differentiate between everyday 6-in-the-tritype musings and stressed 6 panic and self-doubt. So that's my simplistic take on figuring out my main type. Also, you might try reading descriptions of social 3s and 6s if you haven't already. Hopefully this helps a little!


----------



## Prada

rhythmic said:


> I still have a pretty shabby understanding of enneagram, but what helps me distinguish between being 6-dom and 9-dom is the stress/growth points. 6's growth point is 9, but 9 is just how I normally feel all the time. Now when I'm going into 3, I feel alive, exhilarated, happy, and like I'm going somewhere. So obviously I can't be a 6-dom because 3 is 6's stress point. And during those times I move to 6, I feel terrible. I can differentiate between everyday 6-in-the-tritype musings and stressed 6 panic and self-doubt. So that's my simplistic take on figuring out my main type. Also, you might try reading descriptions of social 3s and 6s if you haven't already. Hopefully this helps a little!


It kind of does. Because it's true that 3 has 6 as growth point. So, perhaps, I feel like 6 because of grown 3. It would explain a lot, especially my confusion about the types and relating to them.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

rhythmic said:


> @ScientiaOmnisEst I read something about that awhile ago on this page on 16types. Here's the quote:
> "coping methods (unhealthy) - scattered attention, lack of focus, sexual promiscuity, *intensely avoiding intense experiences and connections with a fearful and dysfunctional attitude toward sex, intimacy, and other intense "completing" experiences, as is skewed by the secondary instinct*"


Him, the problem is this FIS of mine has supposedly been almost lifelong, or at least since childhood. But the "fearful and dysfunctional attitude toward sex [and] intimacy" sounds about right. 

I withdraw from people as they start to get close - maybe compartmentalize the relationship, or simply procrastinate replying to texts or messages until we completely forget about each other. I'm used to people being transient in my life, and honestly hanging out with others feels like an intrusion on my inner life, like by putting myself out there I'm suspending other needs and draining myself. Hope that makes sense.

And yet I would love to be totally genuine with someone who's not online. I go nuts online and will boast every thought and feeling if I don't control myself, and too often I've regretted even that and felt overexposed after. Yet I leave it there in hopes for feedback. Its a weird duality - I have few boundaries when volunteering information online but will do my best to escape having to say anything about myself IRL.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

rhythmic said:


> That's how I feel about sp too!! I'm really bad at tending to sp needs, but I think this could be a reason why I'm actually an sp-dom. My room is messy and I don't do anything about it; I have to pee and I ignore it; I'm hungry and I tune it out until I can't stand it anymore; but I'm conscious of it. I've read that being neglectful of and/or overindulgent in sp needs can signify an unhealthy sp-dom. What are you like with your finances? I'm conscious of it when I'm spending too much and I know I'm getting low on funds, but I just spend anyway and tell myself "it'll work out somehow". Usually I'm inattentive. As long as I can buy lunch and random things and pay rent then I'm fine. But I feel like I _should _care.


I wish I was better at tuning out my body sometimes. Instead it can drive me a bit crazy because I'm almost always distracted by some physical discomfort. Oh to be a floating consciousness sometimes. To tune out stuff like having to pee is hard for me, though I do put off cleaning for a while, until it's just too disgusting to live. I've gotten better now actually, but...

As for my finances, it can make me feel a bit disgusted with myself to spend too much, though I feel like I still end up spending a lot (and I also end up wasting some food because it gets old before I can consume it all), and I feel bad that I'm not better at being frugal. Which does seem pretty Sp... although at the same time, I'm a bit unsure if it's really Sp, or more an ideal if that makes sense. Like it seems better to be the kind of person who isn't stupid and wasteful and gluttonous, and not just because that kind of person is more likely to stay secure, but also just 'cause it seems more admirable. Also feeling bad thinking of how I could spend the money for something better or something like that.

I mean, I find myself thinking of my grandma, who I could see paying a lot of attention to how much money is spent, and "counting every penny" and in comparison to her I'm rather sloppy.

At the same time though, I do find myself despairing a bit over money even though I'm not poor. Like I've had several dreams about not having enough money to buy all the things I want, or being unable to get it for some other reasons. So I can feel pretty deprived even though I'm relatively well-off. 

But yeah, I'm not very self-contained or independent or anything like that. I don't feel like I can rely on myself (to not mess up, I probably would have screwed myself over pretty badly a long time ago if I didn't have someone to help me orz) so instead I live as a parasite or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(Hm, this turned out kind of rambly. Hopefully it still answered what you wanted to know =P)


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

voicetrocity said:


> *Why:* Because revelations about my inner "critic"; the basis of which, an 8 just wouldn't care about.


I'm interested in knowing more about this.


----------



## Brains

Kipposhi said:


> voicetrocity said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Who:* Me
> *What:*Changed my gut fix to 1
> *Why:* Because revelations about my inner "critic"; the basis of which, an 8 just wouldn't care about.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested in knowing more about this.
Click to expand...

Me too.


----------



## voicetrocity

@Brains
@Kipposhi

I've decided to re-check in with myself on ennegaram after finding my MBTI type; and plus, it's been awhile since I've read any enneagram literature. Right after I posted this, I started toying with the idea of re-reading all three enneagram books I own. I have since decided to do just that; reading all three back to back, in order of centers, coupled with introspection.

Beatrice Chestnut is first up- already got through all the heart fixes, and am almost finished with head fixes (just focusing on core beliefs with her, not subtypes).

We'll see what I come up with.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon

@voicetrocity Let us all know!


----------



## Shadow Tag

Been thinking a lot and I've kind of let go of the idea that I'm a core 7. I know that my instinctual stacking is social first, and I re-read all of Chestnut's and Maitri's descriptions for each type's social subtype, and more and more 9 made sense. Her description probably exaggerate social 7s' desire for activism and altruistic behavior, but I became more and more divorced from the theme of Sacrifice for the greater good (I feel some resonance with the sx description, so I do believe that I have a 7 fix). Other than that, I believe that my scattered nature is just being an ENFP, not a core 7. I've also realized that I'm not that versatile. 7s seem to have so many intellectual interests, but I'm more interested in socializing at the end of the day. The conversations don't even really need to be "stimulating."

Participation and wanting to fit in fits me much more. Merging with a group is kind of hard to admit when sx is admired in personality communities, but I do it without realizing a lot. Being the counter type of a 9 fits me too; I never behaved like the descriptions made them seem (i.e. lazy, unmotivated, shy, dull, and reserved). In fact, I'm pretty loud, outgoing, and probably more emotionally revealing than many males, at least in American culture. But I'm bad at expressing my own wants, I'm just really good at expressing affection for others both verbally and physically. I'm the person that says "love ya" to all my friends and hugs them a ton. I've definitely learned a lot about 9s, even if I'm not one myself. Their "dullness" is over-exaggerated in so many descriptions, and I'm a bit mad at myself for thinking of them that way. They (or we I should say) can be incredibly active and amazing people at healthy levels.

Looking back at my life, I can see disintegration to 6 and integration to 3. It's been a long time since I was unhealthy, so I don't feel very connected to 6 right now, but looking back at my life, yep. I can see some 3 in me, too, and it makes sense because I believe that I am pretty healthy at the moment. 

So yeah, social 9w1 with a 7 fix seems accurate for now. I dunno, I just needed to process it. And I'm posting this here for feedback, if anybody has a reason to confirm to deny my conclusion.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@He's a Superhero!
not sure what you currently type as, but you seem like an So/Sx 9w1 or 7w6 E?FJ (actually, IxFJ could work too).


----------



## He's a Superhero!

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_He's a Superhero!_
> not sure what you currently type as, but you seem like an So/Sx 9w1 or 7w6 E?FJ (actually, IxFJ could work too).


I still type the same, however it's cool if people see me differently than I see myself.


I do worry about people seeing me as specifically a sp 2, as there does seem to be a stigma attached to that one. I like the 3 side however. The workaholism, the dress code, the ambition, all sit well with me.
I used to think of myself as more of a 7 than a 6. I didn't really want to identify as a 6 to be honest, however I've finally embraced it after a long time of rather being a 7 of the two. Understanding the difference in tritypes between types with 7 and types with 6, helped clear this up for me.
8 was also a bit of a roller-coaster for me...probably more so than any other type actually. I couldn't ever get away from it, it was always there very clearly in the background, like the shadow of a standing Kodiak, but I couldn't ever stand for it being that it wasn't so clear cut obvious, so I never knew how to type with that one. Whenever I researched it I always got the sx and sp view of 8 all over the place, so I had reconsidered before, but when I got to see the social 8 explanation I would finally see something I connected with and understood and felt comfortable with. So 9 is definitely there as well, and will always be a part of me.
A lot of type 1's have been in my life, some who had big life roles, and they had a strong influence on me.


----------



## newbie const

@Swordsman of Mana Write what you think about my
1.MBTI 2.Enneatype 3.Stacking 4.Tritype :smile:


----------



## Kingsrule

Can someone explain this shit to me.


----------



## counterintuitive

Is it possible to be a core 7 with balanced wings? I keep going back and forth between 7w6 and 7w8, but I think I'm really neither or both. I also considered 7w6 with an 8 fix, but I'm pretty sure I'm 1-fixed. That might be the best option though. I haven't seen a core 7 here with balanced/no wings but figure it must be possible. Anyone? Lol


----------



## counterintuitive

Amaranthine said:


> I know 7s who can ignore bodily urges as long as their mind is occupied,


Lol yup. 7w8 here and this is totally me. And my mind is *always* occupied! ;D Mix inferior Si in there and I'm honestly oblivious as to what's going on with my physical body. Haha.

Yeah, every type could be like this, it would just depend on why. ETA: it could also be SP last, but not necessarily.


----------



## nburns

Amaranthine said:


> I don't think that's 9 though.
> I know 9s like that, I know 9s who aren't like that, I know 7s who can ignore bodily urges as long as their mind is occupied, 3s can probably also ignore hunger more easily in some cases for the sake of goals, etc.


Ok. I've been a 9 for 35 years, and how long have you been a 9 for? XD


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Amaranthine said:


> I don't think that's 9 though.
> I know 9s like that, I know 9s who aren't like that, I know 7s who can ignore bodily urges as long as their mind is occupied, 3s can probably also ignore hunger more easily in some cases for the sake of goals, etc.


The "ignoring one's body" issue is a contentious one for me, since I kept typing as types that are disconnected from their bodies and I'm...not. At all. I'm very aware of my physical urges and only meh at ignoring them. More and more I find myself taking an interest in health and physical self-care, but in an above-and-beyond kind of way: getting my eating habits under control, clearing up health problems. Stuff beyond remembering to eat or sleep (neither of which I have to be reminded of, ever. I often feel like I'm just filling in time between meals I may or may not even want, or until it's time to sleep again...yes, I'm a bit depressed).


----------



## Darkbloom

nburns said:


> Ok. I've been a 9 for 35 years, and how long have you been a 9 for? XD


You've been _you_ for 35 years)
You're not just a 9, you're an individual who also happens to have 9 for enneagram)
And I've known one 9 for over 20, that's something too)
And yeah, that particular 9 is like you, but I also think it could be due to being a NTP and maybe sp last, as @counterintuitive mentioned. Actually in his case it's more likely to be a NTP lost in thoughts and interests thing.
Some 9s can be very physical, just look at sp 9 description.






ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> The "ignoring one's body" issue is a contentious one for me, since I kept typing as types that are disconnected from their bodies and I'm...not. At all. I'm very aware of my physical urges and only meh at ignoring them. More and more I find myself taking an interest in health and physical self-care, but in an above-and-beyond kind of way: getting my eating habits under control, clearing up health problems. Stuff beyond remembering to eat or sleep (neither of which I have to be reminded of, ever. I often feel like I'm just filling in time between meals I may or may not even want, or until it's time to sleep again...yes, I'm a bit depressed).


Yeah, to me that doesn't seem anti 9 at all, could actually be considered 9-ish (although I can see it in other types too, especially depressed and/or sp first)


----------



## nburns

Amaranthine said:


> I don't think that's 9 though.
> I know 9s like that, I know 9s who aren't like that, I know 7s who can ignore bodily urges as long as their mind is occupied, 3s can probably also ignore hunger more easily in some cases for the sake of goals, etc.





ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> The "ignoring one's body" issue is a contentious one for me, since I kept typing as types that are disconnected from their bodies and I'm...not. At all. I'm very aware of my physical urges and only meh at ignoring them. More and more I find myself taking an interest in health and physical self-care, but in an above-and-beyond kind of way: getting my eating habits under control, clearing up health problems. Stuff beyond remembering to eat or sleep (neither of which I have to be reminded of, ever. I often feel like I'm just filling in time between meals I may or may not even want, or until it's time to sleep again...yes, I'm a bit depressed).


Okay... I don't want to get blamed for this idea, because I didn't make it up. I'll quote R&H, since I have their book handy:



> The Nine is the primary personality type in the Instinctive Triad -- the type most out of touch with their instinctual drives and their ability to relate to the environment.


I interpret "out of touch with their instinctual drives" as equivalent to "out of touch with their bodies." 9s are obviously body types, but they have an awkward relationship with their bodies, so they seek to escape into thinking and fantasy, or actually go to sleep. 9s find it easier to ignore things than deal with them head on, and that includes bodily concerns. Anyone can take an interest in health, because health is objectively important. 9s are not immune to objective facts.


----------



## Darkbloom

nburns said:


> Okay... I don't want to get blamed for this idea, because I didn't make it up. I'll quote R&H, since I have their book handy:
> 
> 
> 
> I interpret "out of touch with their instinctual drives" as equivalent to "out of touch with their bodies." 9s are obviously body types, but they have an awkward relationship with their bodies, so they seek to escape into thinking and fantasy, or actually go to sleep. 9s find it easier to ignore things than deal with them head on, and that includes bodily concerns. Anyone can take an interest in health, because health is objectively important. 9s are not immune to objective facts.


I get what you mean but eating and stuff is easy enough even for a slothful 9 xD
They are out of touch with instinctual drives but I don't think it necessarily means body.
Might in your case.
It's more like desires getting blocked by sloth, they don't have to be literally about body.


----------



## nburns

Amaranthine said:


> You've been _you_ for 35 years)


And--I was me before you were even you, so--nyah!



> You're not just a 9, you're an individual who also happens to have 9 for enneagram)
> And I've known one 9 for over 20, that's something too)
> And yeah, that particular 9 is like you, but I also think it could be due to being a NTP and maybe sp last, as


So my personality comes through enough that you can tell I'm like your friend? I'm sorta flattered... I'm self-conscious that my posts sound too stiff and lacking personality... and, of course, we 9s like to feel that we're noticed and be reassured that we exist. =) I suppose it would be hard to evade the notice of a 2, of all people, tho...



> @counterintuitive mentioned. Actually in his case it's more likely to be a NTP lost in thoughts and interests thing.
> Some 9s can be very physical, just look at sp 9 description.


----------



## Darkbloom

nburns said:


> And--I was me before you were even you, so--nyah!


:suspicion:



> So my personality comes through enough that you can tell I'm like your friend? I'm sorta flattered... I'm self-conscious that my posts sound too stiff and lacking personality... and, of course, we 9s like to feel that we're noticed and be reassured that we exist. =) I suppose it would be hard to evade the notice of a 2, of all people, tho...


Oh, trust me, you're very noticeable)
Your posts often are very inviting, not sure if it's on purpose or not)


Btw something I find funny is how 9s are often easily recognized actually.
It is a very distinct personality.
That's why I don't get the mixed types thing, it can be mix of whatever but it's still obviously it's own category just like other types and can be very obvious or less obvious, depending on an individual.
I also see 6s typing themselves and others typing them relatively easily in many cases, despite moments of doubt.
3s too, unless I have a very wrong idea of 3.

@ScientiaOmnisEst is one of more difficult 9s though, I suppose because of being strongly 1 leaning+strong image fix?


----------



## nburns

Amaranthine said:


> I get what you mean but eating and stuff is easy enough even for a slothful 9 xD
> They are out of touch with instinctual drives but I don't think it necessarily means body.
> Might in your case.
> It's more like desires getting blocked by sloth, they don't have to be literally about body.


I think it is about body, and that observation is sorta deep and non-obvious. 9 is about trying to control and micromanage sensations coming from the body... this leads to a conflicted relationship with one's body. Conflict-avoidance is about not wanting to feel jittery and uncomfortably stimulated by conflict; sloth is about not wanting to feel fatigued or risk the agitated feeling that comes with fear of failure or disappointment... the goal is to keep the body calm, and, failing that, tune out and ignore it.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Amaranthine said:


> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_ is one of more difficult 9s though, I suppose because of being strongly 1 leaning+strong image fix?




I've thought lately, when some people were talking about types they relate to in another thread, that I am pretty Oneish. And I've mentioned being imagey plenty of times - one of the first few things the Enneagram taught me was my real motivations (MBTI helped too, but it was while trying to enneatype myself that it hit me). And that sucks.

I've also entertained the possibility of being somewhat disintegrated. Or close to it. 

I keep hoping I'm mistyped or have some different fixes, at least so I could be less "difficult"!

@nburns, I've seen some interpretations that the gut center is about will - about impetus to do things and affect one's surroundings. That's the core of it, a disconnect from _will_, from a sense of presence and power. The physical body is more of a metaphorical stand-in. 

Regarding myself and my body: my physical focus was one of the original reasons I typed as a Nine (after typing as head types). Descriptions of E9s losing themselves in physical things (food, sleep, physical activity) sounded far more like me than someone so engrossed in their mind they forget to eat for a couple of days. Often times these physical things become almost a routine for me (also a Nine thing).


----------



## counterintuitive

Amaranthine said:


> I also think it could be due to being a NTP and maybe sp last, as @counterintuitive mentioned. Actually in his case it's more likely to be a NTP lost in thoughts and interests thing.


Haha, well, I'm not *that* lost in thought or in my head so much as...not present in my body. I always have some project/thing going. Yes, interests is more like it haha. I think for me it could be head type related (I'm a 7), but I think inferior Si doesn't help. I'd like to meet an Si-dom 7 for comparison but generally ISxJs aren't 7s, 6w7 is common though.

Although this is the kind of thing with low specificity - where one thing can be caused by more than one thing.


----------



## Darkbloom

nburns said:


> I think it is about body, and that observation is sorta deep and non-obvious. 9 is about trying to control and micromanage sensations coming from the body... this leads to a conflicted relationship with one's body. Conflict-avoidance is about not wanting to feel jittery and uncomfortably stimulated by conflict; sloth is about not wanting to feel fatigued or risk the agitated feeling that comes with fear of failure or disappointment... the goal is to keep the body calm, and, failing that, tune out and ignore it.


Idk...
I'll think about it, I understand where you're coming from, but somehow I don't feel like being able to ignore hunger must be related.
And there is no doubt that there are 9s who are very physical in sense of focusing too much on food, sleep, etc. Food is calming, wanting food is safe.

Although yes, I do know many 9s who don't eat much, eat even less when depressed (which is a superpower from my perspective lol)
But it could be an individual thing, I do think there is relationship between 9 and odd relationship to body but I think that how it shows depends on many things.


----------



## Jakuri

nburns said:


> I interpret "out of touch with their instinctual drives" as equivalent to "out of touch with their bodies." 9s are obviously body types, but they have an awkward relationship with their bodies, so they seek to escape into thinking and fantasy, or actually go to sleep. 9s find it easier to ignore things than deal with them head on, and that includes bodily concerns. Anyone can take an interest in health, because health is objectively important. 9s are not immune to objective facts.


When reading R&H, that's how I interpreted it also. Though, I think ignoring bodily needs and skipping meals, having irregular sleep schedules, etc., 5's seem more prone. Actually, withdrawn types underuse or misuse the instinctual centre, so withdrawn types having such problems seems more common. Can't speak for 4's, but 5's even more so since their mental world takes priority (especially since their mental interpretation of the world seem more "real" -- a trap 5's are quite susceptible to).

Now that I joined here, let's see if I am mistyped...why not.


----------



## nburns

Amaranthine said:


> :suspicion:
> 
> Oh, trust me, you're very noticeable)
> Your posts often are very inviting, not sure if it's on purpose or not)


Not sure I know exactly what you mean, but I like that. :smile:



> Btw something I find funny is how 9s are often easily recognized actually.
> It is a very distinct personality.


Agree



> That's why I don't get the mixed types thing, it can be mix of whatever but it's still obviously it's own category just like other types and can be very obvious or less obvious, depending on an individual.


Are you referring to my theory of 9 being mixed, or the fact that 9s are said to relate to all types, or? Maybe it doesn't matter. I agree, 9s have a certain aura and I recognize them pretty easily, especially in person. 9 is definitely a distinct category. I believe that 9 is made of other types, but it's still distinctive; the other types fit together in a distinctive way.



> I also see 6s typing themselves and others typing them relatively easily in many cases, despite moments of doubt.
> 3s too, unless I have a very wrong idea of 3.


My opinion is that every type should be possible to recognize easily, it's a question of refining your type-dar. 3, 6, and 9 have the disadvantage that the book descriptions frequently don't appear to fit; but you have to develop your intuition and be able figure out what the books don't tell you.



> @ScientiaOmnisEst is one of more difficult 9s though, I suppose because of being strongly 1 leaning+strong image fix?


If @ScientiaOmnisEst is difficult, it's probably because she's not being spontaneous. I imagine her writing slowly and doing a lot of self-censoring.

Maybe you can cheer her up.



Amaranthine said:


> Idk...
> I'll think about it, I understand where you're coming from, but somehow I don't feel like being able to ignore hunger must be related.
> And there is no doubt that there are 9s who are very physical in sense of focusing too much on food, sleep, etc. Food is calming, wanting food is safe.
> 
> Although yes, I do know many 9s who don't eat much, eat even less when depressed (which is a superpower from my perspective lol)
> But it could be an individual thing, I do think there is relationship between 9 and odd relationship to body but I think that how it shows depends on many things.


Food can be a way of controlling how your body feels. 9 is about control more than anything IMO. It can break many different ways.


----------



## nburns

Jakuri said:


> When reading R&H, that's how I interpreted it also. Though, I think ignoring bodily needs and skipping meals, having irregular sleep schedules, etc., 5's seem more prone. Actually, withdrawn types underuse or misuse the instinctual centre, so withdrawn types having such problems seems more common. Can't speak for 4's, but 5's even more so since their mental world takes priority (especially since their mental interpretation of the world seem more "real" -- a trap 5's are quite susceptible to).


I can't speak to 5 from personal experience, but I do see 5 as being fairly removed from the body. I think that withdrawn types are disconnected from their bodies. Similarly, aggressive types are disconnected from their feelings, and compliant types are disconnected from their minds/thinking.



> Now that I joined here, let's see if I am mistyped...why not.


You've heard what I have to say about that.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

nburns said:


> If @_ScientiaOmnisEst_ is difficult, it's probably because she's not being spontaneous. I imagine her writing slowly and doing a lot of self-censoring.
> 
> Maybe you can cheer her up.


I think I've stopped self-censoring much, or if I do it's almost automatic.

And the only reason I write slowly is because I'm the world's most useless typist. 




> Food can be a way of controlling how your body feels. 9 is about control more than anything IMO. It can break many different ways.


As someone who tends to use food as an emotion-supressant: amen to that!


----------



## Darkbloom

I just talked to one 9 irl) @ScientiaOmnisEst I have some thoughts on your instincts and 9 instincts in general but I'm not very thinky right now so it'll have to wait)


Night!
:sleepytime:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I can see 9 being both alienated and overly focused on their body. I remember this thing about 9 saying something about anger over the discomfort of being trapped in a body (that might not have been what it said, but it's what I took from it, at least), and it's something I've kept thinking about in my attempt at getting a better understanding of type 9. Not really sure where to even start with it, though... Anyway, @ScientiaOmnisEst, I don't think sp 9 is necessarily less deep than other types, because there is more to it than just the physical comfort and such, but that might be how the sp 9 experiences themselves. 

(Also, the relating thread, was it in the 9 forum or somewhere else?)


----------



## nburns

@Distortions what is your type?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@series0 
while you are, in many ways, more convincing than the try hard, dick slinging fools whom normally take up the banner (you actually come off fairly stable and don't have to feign confidence), you are not an 8. all of your opinions are _anti-_freedom, _anti-_indulging in excessive pleasure, scolding people and cultures for behaving in immoral ways and talking about ways in which we can set up an ideal society. 8s have a more "hot" anger to them, a bit more unconscious. your anger, even the midst of passionate debates, has a kind of cold politeness capping a well of seething resentment and moral indignation (to the point where I actually enjoy reading your posts despite absolutely hating 90% of your opinions :laughing: ). as such, you seem like a clear 1w9 (Social variant), though a case for 5 could be made as well. you remind me of a cross between Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias from the movie Watchmen.


----------



## series0

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_series0_
> while you are, in many ways, more convincing than the try hard, dick slinging fools whom normally take up the banner (you actually come off fairly stable and don't have to feign confidence), you are not an 8. all of your opinions are _anti-_freedom, _anti-_indulging in excessive pleasure, scolding people and cultures for behaving in immoral ways and talking about ways in which we can set up an ideal society. 8s have a more "hot" anger to them, a bit more unconscious. your anger, even the midst of passionate debates, has a kind of cold politeness capping a well of seething resentment and moral indignation (to the point where I actually enjoy reading your posts despite absolutely hating 90% of your opinions :laughing: ). as such, you seem like a clear 1w9 (Social variant), though a case for 5 could be made as well. you remind me of a cross between Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias from the movie Watchmen.


often wonder about my possible mistyping. But every time I take the tests I come out in this order:
8-4-1-7-3-5-6-2-9 roughly.

I will say also that at 50, I am going to have to claim more maturity (wisdom) than most people ever achieve in a lifetime. Of all my wisdom nothing is so mitigated and integrated as my type 8. 

When I was young I was a skinny nerdling. But I was very smart. I got into fights all the time. I had a protective friend-based strategy and all things military were my interests. In every activity with other kids I was the leader. My ideas were implemented. I controlled all the games and told everyone what to do. I really had no idea at the time what I was doing, I just did it. And they followed my lead. 

If anyone told me what to do, I would not do that. I would counter demand, not counter offer. There was nothing about me that was not fundamentally certain in most ways. 

Everyone called me 'The Trooper'. For me too much play, too much of my favorite restaurant, too much staying out at friends houses (where I pushed their mothers to call my mothers to say it was ok until they did), was never quite enough. The other kids loved me and most parents did also although some adults called me pushy and a ringleader.

But as a little skinny guy puberty and all my parents moving around hit me hard. My parents were also two generations older than me and I was a first child. So the new 'cool' I had no idea about. The power and my ability to lead sort-of inverted. And that crisis was at age 9. It tore my life apart. I started hating aspects of myself and my 4 came out pretty hard. 

i retracted into myself and avoided a lot of others. My parents thought I was getting better because my outgoing craziness settled down. I started reading everything. I stole encyclopedias one book at a time. I know right? Space alien! But I did it. I read them cover to cover to learn what was wrong. I knew instinctively that my parents were weak and had set me up. I had to learn on my own why the world was so harsh to protect myself.

I took classes in martial arts and started playing sports to be more physical. My grades were too good and that got me double promoted long before that was common. I was 2 years younger that the other boys in my grade and yet my Phys Ed coach forced me to try out for Soccer. I made the team and lettered in it with the greatest number of assists in my senior year. 

I have always had a natural instinct about dangerous situations. I can walk into a room and point out the most dangerous person in it after just moments. I have led freinds and family out of some nasty spots due to my tendency to take charge and shut them all up and convince them to follow my lead and I always tell them they can just laugh at me later. They don't ignore those warnings now. 

When I was in my teens I started to be too military oriented, too fight oriented, and too cruel to everything and everyone. I surprised even myself and my mother shocked me one day by just stating plainly that I was hurting those I loved. I started retracting again and trying to figure it out. At age 16 I delved into philosophy, religions of all kinds, and medicine. 

My 4 brings out my art in the use of words and indeed I do have a strong 1 vector as well. More and more in my life 1 thinking has come to represent for me a push that is needed in life, in the world, and something I feel duty bound by realizing it, to push with. My verbal on the SAT was pretty much capped. Eloquent, I is. Only the environs of the south and my chaotic fall from all that is respectable (I do not worship money) has prevented me continuing growth in a very highbrow direction.

In every case in my life my anger was most centered on one thing, betrayal. To me the betrayal was more important as a motivating force. I fantasized (4 and 7) about revenge and luckily for me that was enough of a catharsis. My parents continually betrayed me time after time with revenge seeking. I suppose they had some inane 2 type wisdom but it made me hate lack of support. Just 1 typical example that still stands out is when I took a scuba class in school. I bought with my own money a top of the line 3 pane mask because my lantern jaw didn't fit the ones the school had. I took it to a pool to get used to it and my brothers and sisters and neighbors kids went with me. The neighbor's kid, an ESTJ that sparred with me and had issues with me because I was smart grabbed my mask when it was on the side of the pool. He knew that was not going to go unanswered. At first I went to him to just take it back. BUt then he fled and threw it to his older brother. I asked them to stop but they were kids ... so it got broken. I demanded that they pay for it and both of them clammed up and acted all unsure what to do. When we got home my goofy mother talked to their mother and told them it was my fault for bringing such an expensive thing to the pool. I had no business doing that and they did not have to pay. You have to understand my mother as a type 2 was the center of all worthlessness in the universe in her own eyes. By guilt by association all her kids were next in the worthlessness radius. She also loved being magnanimous and sucked up to everyone, especially the neighbor's poorer mom. But did my mom pay for it? No. I knew even then at age 14 that she was an idiot and that I should not take it out on her, but I sure wanted to.

The pattern of my emotional life is a pattern of betrayals and me knowing I should not wisely seek revenge. My fantasies were the secret lives of Walter Mitty and I slew the fools in them all the time and 100s of ways but I kept that out of the real world mostly. I beat a few people up but I got beat up also and I really didn't mind. When I got down and defeated I became an aloof observer and learned all I could. Those times in life my parents called my hermit stages. If I was doing well my mom would admonish me not to help others so much, that I was giving everything away. She had unique insight there, being a 2 herself. 

My big heroes were John Wayne, Stan Fowler, Conan, The Rifleman, and distantly Kwai Chang Kaine. I loved Batman of course and I thought Superman was prissy and holier than thou. 

You sure I don't sound like an 8?


----------



## Animal

series0 said:


> You sure I don't sound like an 8?


All your posts ever have sounded 8 to me, including this one. I think you're correctly typed. I see no reason to doubt 478 tritype either.

To be fair, I haven't read the posts @Swordsman of Mana refers to.


----------



## nburns

I haven't really observed 8 as being a type people mistype as, FWIW. Maybe because it's one of the easiest to understand.


----------



## Animal

nburns said:


> I haven't really observed 8 as being a type people mistype as, FWIW. Maybe because it's one of the easiest to understand.


:exterminate:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@series0
interesting. in that case, yeah, I can see 8 (though probably with a 9 wing)


----------



## nburns

Animal said:


> :exterminate:


What do you mean by that?

I was agreeing with you. @series0 sounds pretty self-aware, so I'm not inclined to say he's mistyped, especially when he's claiming 8. 8 isn't one of those types that everyone wants to mistype as, like 4.


----------



## series0

nburns said:


> What do you mean by that?
> 
> I was agreeing with you. @_series0_ sounds pretty self-aware, so I'm not inclined to say he's mistyped, especially when he's claiming 8. 8 isn't one of those types that everyone wants to mistype as, like 4.


I will interpret - 'We are NOT easy to understand, die evil fiend!'

Complexity is a trait that is rare across the entire enneagram and exist on a different plane than just type. There are complex people of each type and it is by no means easy to understand any of them. They are deep, quixotic, and change direction often, although the general thrust is still detectable.


----------



## nburns

series0 said:


> I will interpret - 'We are NOT easy to understand, die evil fiend!'
> 
> Complexity is a trait that is rare across the entire enneagram and exist on a different plane than just type. There are complex people of each type and it is by no means easy to understand any of them. They are deep, quixotic, and change direction often, although the general thrust is still detectable.


Okay. Perhaps I was misunderstood. I said the type is easy to understand. Not the people of that type.


----------



## Animal

nburns said:


> What do you mean by that?
> 
> I was agreeing with you. @_series0_ sounds pretty self-aware, so I'm not inclined to say he's mistyped, especially when he's claiming 8. 8 isn't one of those types that everyone wants to mistype as, like 4.


There are a lot of 8 mistypes. It's one of the biggest mistype magnets on the forum, along with 4 and 5, although 5 has been slowing down as of late. 
I mistyped at 8, but for "darker" reasons.. related to trauma, etc. I have never wanted to be an 8, it was an honest mistake. I don't particularly "want" to be any type, but if I could choose I would choose 3 or 1 as an 'ideal self.'

But many people are attracted to 8 because they associate it with 'strength' or something like that. As a trend, it is often attractive to 6s and 3s for this reason. They admire the idea of strength in the case of 6, and in the case of 3, they admire the idea of "8s don't care what others think of them."

Of course this is bullshit - any type can be strong or weak, and all humans care on some level what others think of them.


Also , self-aware people can mistype just as easily. It depends on life experience etc. Trauma, abuse and other factors can complicate things. And so can weird, conflicting definitions of types on the internet.


----------



## nburns

Animal said:


> There are a lot of 8 mistypes. It's one of the biggest mistype magnets on the forum, along with 4 and 5, although 5 has been slowing down as of late.


I haven't observed that to be the case. My guess for the order of mistypings (in decreasing order): 4, 5, 7, 2, 1, 8, 6, 3, 9



> I mistyped at 8, but for "darker" reasons.. related to trauma, etc. I have never wanted to be an 8, it was an honest mistake. I don't particularly "want" to be any type, but if I could choose I would choose 3 or 1 as an 'ideal self.'


The only type I want to be is my actual type, because I admire truth. But I think newbies pick types to validate how they want to be, such as intelligent or deep. Or, at least, it comes across that way.

It shows a shallow understanding of the system, and/or a lack of self-awareness.



> But many people are attracted to 8 because they associate it with 'strength' or something like that. As a trend, it is often attractive to 6s and 3s for this reason. They admire the idea of strength in the case of 6, and in the case of 3, they admire the idea of "8s don't care what others think of them."


I have observed a decent number of 3s that think they are 4s. Partly, I blame the popular type descriptions, for downplaying the self-doubting side of 3.



> Of course this is bullshit - any type can be strong or weak, and all humans care on some level what others think of them.


Affirmative.



> *Also , self-aware people can mistype just as easily.* It depends on life experience etc. Trauma, abuse and other factors can complicate things. And so can weird, conflicting definitions of types on the internet.


Do you really think self-awareness is of no value in self-typing?


----------



## Darkbloom

Unrelated but @Animal is it true that many 3s admire 8s for (supposedly) not caring about what people think?
I always thought 3s (and 2s maybe) were one of those types that embrace it completely, and 6s (but also 9s and some 7s from what I've seen) have big concerns over how people feel about them but often blame their weakness and hate themselves for even caring.
3 seems very comfortable and in control of it to the point of simply caring and knowing what to do about it actually being part of their thing, something they take pride in regardless of achievements.

Wing thing? Subtype thing?


----------



## Animal

nburns said:


> I haven't observed that to be the case. My guess for the order of mistypings (in decreasing order): 4, 5, 7, 2, 1, 8, 6, 3, 9


That's your guess. My assessment, based on what I've observed over my 3.5 years on the forum, is that 8, 4, and 5, in that order, attract mistypes. After that, 7.




> The only type I want to be is my actual type, because I admire truth. But I think newbies pick types to validate how they want to be, such as intelligent or deep. Or, at least, it comes across that way.
> 
> It shows a shallow understanding of the system, and/or a lack of self-awareness.


Well I agree with that, but I also think it shows a shallow understanding of the system - and of human nature - to assume that self-aware people can't mistype, or that typing correctly on the first go, indicates self-awareness.




> I have observed a decent number of 3s that think they are 4s. Partly, I blame the popular type descriptions, for downplaying the self-doubting side of 3.


Each person's reason for mistyping is their own. A 3 might type her self-image, she might type her trauma-reaction, she might type based on how others have told her she is, etc. There are all sorts of reasons anyone, or any type, can mistype. Of course there are trends. 4s can also mistype at 3, 7 or 8 because their competitiveness makes them seem 'assertive' or they don't relate to the self-loathing melodramatic whiner descriptions which rarely apply to real 4s.



> Do you really think self-awareness is of no value in self-typing?


It may be of some value, but I think the two are unrelated. People mistype for a lot of reasons and some are related to lack of self awareness and some aren't. Some of the most self-aware people are aware of enough problems in themselves that they can identify with several types. Also, very un-selfaware people might happen to type correctly, but still not use that typing to gain self awareness. So, no, I don't see the point in linking the two. I am also not in favor of shaming people for a lack of self-awareness when they mistype - not only because it's unfounded, but also, because it discourages people from exploring in an honest fashion to find the correct type.


----------



## Animal

Amaranthine said:


> Unrelated but @_Animal_ is it true that many 3s admire 8s for (supposedly) not caring about what people think?
> I always thought 3s (and 2s maybe) were one of those types that embrace it completely, and 6s (but also 9s and some 7s from what I've seen) have big concerns over how people feel about them but often blame their weakness and hate themselves for even caring.
> 3 seems very comfortable and in control of it to the point of simply caring and knowing what to do about it actually being part of their thing, something they take pride in regardless of achievements.
> 
> Wing thing? Subtype thing?


Hmm I'm not sure. The only 3 I knew well IRL, a 3w4 Sx/So, would constantly criticize other people for being "try-hards" and "fakes," so I doubt she would own up to that herself.


----------



## nburns

Animal said:


> That's your guess. My assessment, based on what I've observed over my 3.5 years on the forum, is that 8, 4, and 5, in that order, attract mistypes. After that, 7.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I agree with that, but I also think it shows a shallow understanding of the system - and of human nature - to assume that self-aware people can't mistype, or that typing correctly on the first go, indicates self-awareness.
> 
> 
> 
> Each person's reason for mistyping is their own. A 3 might type her self-image, she might type her trauma-reaction, she might type based on how others have told her she is, etc. There are all sorts of reasons anyone, or any type, can mistype. Of course there are trends. 4s can also mistype at 3, 7 or 8 because their competitiveness makes them seem 'assertive' or they don't relate to the self-loathing melodramatic whiner descriptions which rarely apply to real 4s.
> 
> 
> It may be of some value, but I think the two are unrelated. People mistype for a lot of reasons and some are related to lack of self awareness and some aren't. Some of the most self-aware people are aware of enough problems in themselves that they can identify with several types. Also, very un-selfaware people might happen to type correctly, but still not use that typing to gain self awareness. So, no, I don't see the point in linking the two. I am also not in favor of shaming people for a lack of self-awareness when they mistype - not only because it's unfounded, but also, because it discourages people from exploring in an honest fashion to find the correct type.


I get the sense that there is a straw man being beaten. Shaming people is not cool, but, if a person can't figure out his type, then it's clearly a failure of understanding (that's basically a tautology). He could be misunderstanding himself, misunderstanding the Enneagram, or both. What else is there?


----------



## Animal

nburns said:


> I get the sense that there is a straw man being beaten. Shaming people is not cool, but, if a person can't figure out his type, then it's clearly a failure of understanding (that's basically a tautology). He could be misunderstanding himself, misunderstanding the Enneagram, or both. What else is there?


Yeah that's fair enough - 

either he's misunderstanding how he, himself fits into enneagram, which comes along with misinterpreting his DEEPEST core fear - since all of the fears are present in all people, which is the reason for the connecting lines of enneagram, to demonstrate that we all experience all of these issues on some level. So, he may or may not be misunderstanding himself in the sense of "low self awareness," but he is definitely misunderstanding how he fits into enneagram -

or, he misunderstands the system, which is more often the case with "n00bs" as you mentioned, but some long-time users still continue to do this. 

Also, I will mention that enneagram "professionals" and "experts" disagree with one another about the typings of celebrities, or even the self-typings of other enneagram authors lol. So, it is obviously not a problem limited to n00bs. It's a complex system.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

nburns said:


> I haven't really observed 8 as being a type people mistype as, FWIW. Maybe because it's one of the easiest to understand.


I kinda feel like 8 is one of the harder types to understand. >_>

(Also didn't respond to your question earlier because I got nervous.)


----------



## nburns

Distortions said:


> I kinda feel like 8 is one of the harder types to understand. >_>
> 
> (Also didn't respond to your question earlier because I got nervous.)


Did I make you nervous?


----------



## Kisshoten

Distortions said:


> I kinda feel like 8 is one of the harder types to understand. >_>
> 
> (Also didn't respond to your question earlier because I got nervous.)


I'd say the difficulty in understanding 8 could be because of adopting a lot of things that were.. created. I know that;s kinda vague but... its pretty easy to see/understand 8 if you're familiar with the concept of the noble savage, i.e., essentially a person who is not corrupted by the influence of civilization. I also think this idea is pretty close to some aspects of 8 considering how 1 is the called the epitome of "civilized" and 8 is kinda..on the other side of the coin. 

I still don't know if that'd explanation makes any sense to other people, but yeah, that idea makes a lot of sense in my head.


----------



## Kisshoten

^ forgive the typos. When I type all the blurb in my head it usually ends up unstructured or unclear.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

I've became 3 now. Figured the type is not so much about being hard-working and shit but a need to impress people. Well, I do relate to this, kinda. Rather than having an unique-personal style, I usually try to match the other's standarts at that moment so I lean towards 3w2 (but not necessarily need a wing, 3 alone works better imo), at least as image fix or sth. 

I'm only one "type 4" typing away from completing the circle:tongue:


----------



## nburns

Distortions said:


> Does any type like to unintentionally mislead people?


6, I think.:kitteh:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

nburns said:


> 6, I think.:kitteh:


Maybe, but why would they like it more than 9? 9 seems like it can be pretty unintentional about things, so...


----------



## piano

i don't know if i'm a cp6 or an 8


*why i think i'm a 6, specifically cp6*
- anxious as fuck, like just a ball of fuckin nerves
- full of self-doubt
- i relate very heavily to the ping-pong ball analogy ("constantly shuttling back and forth between whatever influence is hitting the hardest in any given moment")
- a bundle of opposites/contradictions
- reactive, defensive, cautious, indecisive, suspicious, reactive

*why i think i'm an 8*
- strong urge to protect myself, those close to me, and the weak/innocent
- problems with my temper and being vulnerable (i relate to this more than anything else)
- main goal in life is to become entirely self-reliant
- "angry" is me a nutshell though i'm not exactly proud of it
- i hate it when people have control/power over me
- strong-willed, intimidating, confrontational, straight-talking, arrogant (or so i've been told)


*why i doubt i'm a 8:* most 8 descriptions i've read claim that 8s don't give a fuck what other people think, ever... but i do care. i don't always show it (especially not irl) and i absolutely hate myself when i do show it, but it's definitely there.

*why i doubt i'm a 6:* i don't relate to the bit about 6s needing support or "back-up" before defending or challenging a person/belief. that's the most cowardly shit ever. in fact, if i disagree with someone but too many people support me (as in they start ganging up on the other person), i'll immediately back off them.


so yeah, i dunno. help would be mucho appreciated.


----------



## nburns

carpe omnia said:


> i don't know if i'm a cp6 or an 8
> 
> 
> *why i think i'm a 6, specifically cp6*
> - anxious as fuck, like just a ball of fuckin nerves
> - full of self-doubt
> - i relate very heavily to the ping-pong ball analogy ("constantly shuttling back and forth between whatever influence is hitting the hardest in any given moment")
> - a bundle of opposites/contradictions
> - reactive, defensive, cautious, indecisive, suspicious, reactive
> 
> *why i think i'm an 8*
> - strong urge to protect myself, those close to me, and the weak/innocent
> - problems with my temper and being vulnerable (i relate to this more than anything else)
> - main goal in life is to become entirely self-reliant
> - "angry" is me a nutshell though i'm not exactly proud of it
> - i hate it when people have control/power over me
> - strong-willed, intimidating, confrontational, straight-talking, arrogant (or so i've been told)
> 
> 
> *why i doubt i'm a 8:* most 8 descriptions i've read claim that 8s don't give a fuck what other people think, ever... but i do care. i don't always show it (especially not irl) and i absolutely hate myself when i do show it, but it's definitely there.
> 
> *why i doubt i'm a 6:* i don't relate to the bit about 6s needing support or "back-up" before defending or challenging a person/belief. that's the most cowardly shit ever. in fact, if i disagree with someone but too many people support me (as in they start ganging up on the other person), i'll immediately back off them.
> 
> 
> so yeah, i dunno. help would be mucho appreciated.


I'd eliminate 8. 6 is a possibility. That part of 6 that you disagree with is pretty insignificant, I think.


----------



## nburns

Distortions said:


> Maybe, but why would they like it more than 9? 9 seems like it can be pretty unintentional about things, so...


As far as 9s not liking to mislead people... I'm not sure how to describe this... maybe I'll be more eloquent after more coffee...

I'm sure 6s don't actually enjoy confusing people. It seems like they do, but it's probably unintentional.


----------



## psychologic

So apparently self-preservation 9s have a tendency to seek personally-gratifying ways to numb out, such as watching TV, eating, shopping, etc. in order to avoid personal problems. 

What I'm wondering is if an sp 9's go-to method could actually be something like having sex or spending an endless amount of time with friends, rather than something immediately sp-ish? Obviously sex isn't _numbing_, but it's definitely personally gratifying and could be a method through which someone ignores important personal issues. And talking with friends could be seen the same way -- it's stimulating, yes, but also a method through which you can neglect yourself. Basically these are distractions you use so you can keep being numb to things that need to be addressed.


----------



## Jakuri

rhythmic said:


> So apparently self-preservation 9s have a tendency to seek personally-gratifying ways to numb out, such as watching TV, eating, shopping, etc. in order to avoid personal problems.
> 
> What I'm wondering is if an sp 9's go-to method could actually be something like having sex or spending an endless amount of time with friends, rather than something immediately sp-ish? Obviously sex isn't _numbing_, but it's definitely personally gratifying and could be a method through which someone ignores important personal issues. And talking with friends could be seen the same way -- it's stimulating, yes, but also a method through which you can neglect yourself. Basically these are distractions you use so you can keep being numb to things that need to be addressed.


This reminded me of an excerpt from Jaxon-Bear's _From Fixation to Freedom_:


> Appetite is used to try to suppress the feelings of anger, but it doesn’t work very well. This makes them the most visibly irritable of the Nines. It also creates continual craving for that which brings temporary relief from the feelings of rage and despair. *I have worked with obsessive-compulsive pornography and masturbation addicts who were self-preservation Nines.*
> 
> In less severe circumstances, these may be people who refer to their possessions as “toys” and express the frustration that they just don’t have enough resources to have the newest or best toy. For one client I worked with, his big toys were racing cars. All of his income went into building racing cars, but it was never enough. If he was building a Ferrari, it wasn’t the best Ferrari. If he was rebuilding a Lamborghini, there was always a better one out there, and if only he had that toy, then he would be happy. That was his issue in life. There was a hunger that could never be fulfilled.


So I am inclined to believe that sex can be used as a way to numb oneself. Whatever one can use to numb oneself, symbolically speaking, including intense physical gratification to put anger to sleep (after all, 9's are in the *body* triad). Also, I surmise that the unhealthier 9 gets, the more catatonic they sound as far as talking goes.


----------



## Dyslexicon

rhythmic said:


> So apparently self-preservation 9s have a tendency to seek personally-gratifying ways to numb out, such as watching TV, eating, shopping, etc. in order to avoid personal problems.
> 
> What I'm wondering is if an sp 9's go-to method could actually be something like having sex or spending an endless amount of time with friends, rather than something immediately sp-ish? Obviously sex isn't _numbing_, but it's definitely personally gratifying and could be a method through which someone ignores important personal issues. And talking with friends could be seen the same way -- it's stimulating, yes, but also a method through which you can neglect yourself. Basically these are distractions you use so you can keep being numb to things that need to be addressed.


Yes, at least in my view. The "what" is not nearly as important as the "why" here. 9s are forgetful about their own needs and have trouble prioritizing. Virtually anything can serve as a distraction from what the 9 really needs, but may find uncomfortable or difficult in the moment. For me I go through phases where different things becomes my "go to distraction". They can be activeties that requires little thought, like watching TV series or watch random YouTube videos, but they can also be about learning and reading about a new subject. Usually this means I have bills to pay, work to do or personal relations that I need to tend to.


----------



## maryapple

I'll volunteer. I've been considering a core of six over my current type three


----------



## nburns

maryapple said:


> I'll volunteer. I've been considering a core of six over my current type three


Well, I would love to help, but I don't really have any information about you.


----------



## Kintsugi

Deleted.

changed my mind - I cannot be bothered, lol.


----------



## angelfish

I'm sorry, I think I clicked this before you edited. I hope you don't mind me preserving this one sentence of yours. Let me know if you'd rather me delete it. 



The Perfect Storm said:


> I don't really see myself as either a "loyalist" or a "skeptic".


For what it's worth, I don't know that most 6s really see themselves in those terms, either. There's a thread in the 6 subforum right now about other names for 6 - Guardians, Sentinels, and Hearth-Keepers have all been proposed and supported. Many of us have discussed our fairly complicated relationship with loyalty (true that we can be strongly loyal, but we are also often swift to drop connections when we feel they are untrustworthy) - while 6w5s and 6w7s seem to veer a little apart in terms of skepticism - 6w5s generally seeming to embody more true skepticism in the intellectual/philosophical sense; 6w7s experiencing more of a wavery self-doubt and fuzzy paranoia. 

So I think the key for a 6 walking into a room full of people (or any situation) is that they are going to focus on doing whatever increases their feelings of security, whether that's beelining to their known acquaintances, getting in line for punch (i.e. doing something utilitarian with no pressure to socialize), or tucking themself away in a quiet spot (me). If they already feel secure enough, though - because they know everyone there well enough, or because they know a lot about the place, or whatever (note head triad focus on information) - then they might be open to any number of behaviors or other motivations. The primary concern will simply always be _do I feel secure here, and if not, how do I increase my feeling of security?_


----------



## Kintsugi

angelfish said:


> I'm sorry, I think I clicked this before you edited. I hope you don't mind me preserving this one sentence of yours. Let me know if you'd rather me delete it.


No worries! I had a change of heart at the last minute because I realised that I was probably not going to find the answers I was looking for via this approach. I appreciate the feedback/insight though. 



> For what it's worth, I don't know that most 6s really do, either. There's a discussion in the 6 subforum right now about other names for 6 - Guardians, Sentinels, and Hearth-Keepers have all been proposed and supported. I think the key for a 6 walking into a room full of people (or any situation) is that they are going to focus on doing whatever makes them feel secure, whether that's beelining to their known acquaintances, getting in line for punch, or tucking themself in a quiet spot (me). If they already feel secure enough - because they know everyone there well enough, or because they know a lot about the place, or whatever (note head triad focus on information), then they might be open to any number of behaviors or other motivations. The primary concern will simply always be _do I feel secure here, and if not, how do I increase my feeling of security?_


Hmm. Interesting.

This actually sounds _a lot _like my partner (who I would never have believed could be a reactive type!) "Security" is a big issue for him, he's prepared for _everything. _I wouldn't describe him as "anxious" though; he's like a pillar of strength and that's one of the reasons why I was so drawn and attracted to him in the first place. 

I'm a lot more reckless and impulsive in comparison. Honestly, I'm not sure where I'd be without him, lol. My partner is very introverted (INTJ) and generally speaking has little faith in people. It takes A LOT for him to open up to someone but I've never got the feeling that he is suspicious of others or fixated on their motivations (it's more that he dislikes having to rely on anyone but himself and takes pride in being someone that others can depend on). I'm actually a lot more easy-going and open-minded when it comes to interacting with others. Although, I have HUGE shame issues. I constantly compare myself to others and feel as though I'm not good enough (I always feel as though people are judging me and can see all my imperfections). 

I guess, I don't think "do I feel secure here?" ....it's more that I think..."will I be accepted/understood?"

Does that make sense. >_>

Edit: I think I'll pop over the 6 sub-forum and check out the thread, thanks. ^_^


----------



## angelfish

The Perfect Storm said:


> No worries! I had a change of heart at the last minute because I realised that I was probably not going to find the answers I was looking for via this approach. I appreciate the feedback/insight though.


Sure! I understand! I've written long posts here before and deleted them before even submitting. :redface-new:



> This actually sounds _a lot _like my partner (who I would never have believed could be a reactive type!) "Security" is a big issue for him, he's prepared for _everything. _I wouldn't describe him as "anxious" though; he's like a pillar of strength and that's one of the reasons why I was so drawn and attracted to him in the first place.
> 
> I'm a lot more reckless and impulsive in comparison. Honestly, I'm not sure where I'd be without him, lol. My partner is very introverted (INTJ) and generally speaking has little faith in people. It takes A LOT for him to open up to someone but I've never got the feeling that he is suspicious of others or fixated on their motivations (it's more that he dislikes having to rely on anyone but himself and takes pride in being someone that others can depend on). I'm actually a lot more easy-going and open-minded when it comes to interacting with others.


Possible that your partner could be an 8w9 sp-first, maybe? Self-pres types can have a similar focus on safety and always having resources. 



> Although, I have HUGE shame issues. I constantly compare myself to others and feel as though I'm not good enough (I always feel as though people are judging me and can see all my imperfections).





> I guess, I don't think "do I feel secure here?" ....it's more that I think..."will I be accepted/understood?"
> 
> Does that make sense. >_>


Yes... the above two quotes strike me as 4ish. Have you considered sx-first 4? Can appear 7ish, particularly sx-first 4w3. Would harbor a similar darkness/grittiness to 6. 

Edit - Just occurred to me that 6w7 so/sp might also be a possibility. I've seen Ellen DeGeneres typed as 6w7 so/sp in case that's a useful reference point. Your avatar and username strike me as more sx-inclusive, though, for whatever that is worth. 

Good luck


----------



## Kintsugi

angelfish said:


> Possible that your partner could be an 8w9 sp-first, maybe? Self-pres types can have a similar focus on safety and always having resources.


You know, I have been playing with the idea of him being sp-first 8w9 for a little while now. Maybe it's the INTJness but I always assumed he was a head type because he's so logical, lol. Having said that, I just don't see the 6-like reactivity in him and he seems too determined and forceful to be a core 5 (and 7 is out of the question). 



> Yes... the above two quotes strike me as 4ish. Have you considered sx-first 4? Can appear 7ish, particularly sx-first 4w3. Would harbor a similar darkness/grittiness to 6.
> 
> Good luck


Oh wow....that suggestion just blew my mind! I've never considered 4 before (except only possibly as a heart-fix). Honestly, I really don't know enough about the type because I've been focusing so much on 6 and 7 all this time, lol. I recently came to a huge realization that my core issue is shame and that everything else (such as my social anxiety) is merely a symptom of that. The thing is, when I had that epiphany I wasn't thinking in terms of Enneagram, it was just something that slowly become painfully aware to me as I practised self-therapy and faced some long-repressed inner demons. Part of the reason why I deleted the above post was because of SHAME - of revealing myself only to be misunderstood or rejected in some way. >_>

In terms of instincts I think I might be sp-first because I'm super withdrawn and focused on myself (my comforts). Although....I really don't know enough about it to comment.

Thanks for the food for thought!


----------



## angelfish

The Perfect Storm said:


> Oh wow....that suggestion just blew my mind! I've never considered 4 before (except only possibly as a heart-fix). Honestly, I really don't know enough about the type because I've been focusing so much on 6 and 7 all this time, lol. I recently came to a huge realization that my core issue is shame and that everything else (such as my social anxiety) is merely a symptom of that. The thing is, when I had that epiphany I wasn't thinking in terms of Enneagram, it was just something that slowly become painfully aware to me as I practised self-therapy and faced some long-repressed inner demons. Part of the reason why I deleted the above post was because of SHAME - of revealing myself only to be misunderstood or rejected in some way. >_>
> 
> In terms of instincts I think I might be sp-first because I'm super withdrawn and focused on myself (my comforts). Although....I really don't know enough about it to comment.
> 
> Thanks for the food for thought!


:hugs:

Well, I don't know that I can say I fully understand you - I think that would be quite presumptuous of me - but I at least certainly accept and enjoy your presence and conversation  

I wish I'd not clicked through your first post so quickly, otherwise I could theoretically comment on head triad versus not, but from what I do remember of what you've said so far you seem more anchored defense-wise in human relation than anticipatory thought - heart over head. I know it's hard to tease out what's what, though. I started my self-etyping looking at 4 and 7 - winding up at 6 took quite a while.

Anyway, here's a few links on 4, 6, and 7, for interest's sake.


----------



## Kintsugi

angelfish said:


> :hugs:
> 
> Well, I don't know that I can say I fully understand you - I think that would be quite presumptuous of me - but I at least certainly accept and enjoy your presence and conversation


Like I said, I really do appreciate the feedback. This is the most exciting conversation about my Enneatype I've had in AGES, lol. 

I've had a few bad experiences in this thread so I always tread with caution because I am very sensitive (perhaps over-sensitive) to being (or feeling) misunderstood.



> I wish I'd not clicked through your first post so quickly, otherwise I could theoretically comment on head triad versus not, but from what I do remember of what you've said so far you seem more anchored defense-wise in human relation than anticipatory thought - heart over head. I know it's hard to tease out what's what, though. I started my self-etyping looking at 4 and 7 - winding up at 6 took quite a while.
> 
> Anyway, here's a few links on 4, 6, and 7, for interest's sake.


I'm sort of regretting that I deleted it now as well! I focused mainly on why 6 and 7 both were and weren't good options for me (leaning more on core 6 because I just cannot relate to being out of touch with negative emotions in the way 7 is portrayed. I seriously find it hard to see myself as a "positive outlook" type, too. I'm super doom-and-gloom about life, lol). I guess, I've always related to the intensity of 6 and the feeling of being an outsider (is that a 6 thing or am I confusing it with 4? I have no idea any-more >_>).

Could you explain the difference between what you meant by "human" verses "anticipatory thought" defence? 

I've had a quick look at those links (I also checked out sp 8 for my partner and omg, that's _him!_) It's interesting but after my recent epiphany I just can't see myself as a 7 any-more (wishful thinking, perhaps?) I think, deep down, I'd _love _to be a 7....they seem to embody everything that I wish I was. My partner has a friend who I believe is a core 7 and for ages I hated her because I was jealous of her confidence and carefree attitude, I suppose. She is the type of person that shines so brightly that you have to shield your eyes a little when you look at her, to protect your eyes from being blinded by the light. Perhaps sometimes I even try and act like a 7 because that's sort of partly what my idealised-self is (although, I'm conflicted about this because I also want to be seen as having integrity and emotional depth and to always be true to myself....yeah, I definitely have identity issues ).

The 6 stuff I relate to in the sense that part of my idealised self is to be someone who is dependable and is someone that others can rely on. I really don't relate to having any significant issues with authority (other than in a more shame-based way, i.e. "I've let them down...I'm worthless"). 

I read the 4 descriptions....:shocked:

I can't believe it but I think I relate to the So-first (then sx) 4 description the most. >_>

You've convinced me that I need to take a more in-depth look at type 4.


----------



## mimesis

@The Perfect Storm

FWIW, our first exchange on this thread, 100 pages ago, in 2014 



mimesis said:


> The Perfect Storm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 9 types of narrow mindedness - but why the focus on just one? I'm not a static creature; I'm fluid, dynamic, and impossible to put in a box. I'm not entirely sure how this particular process is going to benefit me. From where I'm standing, it just narrows the possibilities/perspectives.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe you want to be unique and don't like the idea of being put in a box, which causes resistance on a visceral level. Maybe you are here to define your identity, by negation of narrowminded people who put everything in boxes, including themselves. You seem to look at it from the I perspective, you didn't say "people are...", or "human nature is..." And this need to be unique could narrow your mind in closing yourself of from information that says from a certain perspective you are not so unique and the way you handle your hammer in situations is remarkably similar, from a strategic point of view. This need to be unique may also be the cause of feeling alienated, to give an example of doing harm, where awareness of commonality or relatedness could make you feel more connected and at place. Of course, I don't want to pin you down, but I guess this is a concrete example you asked for.
Click to expand...


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> Oh wow....that suggestion just blew my mind! I've never considered 4 before (except only possibly as a heart-fix). Honestly, I really don't know enough about the type because I've been focusing so much on 6 and 7 all this time, lol. I recently came to a huge realization that my core issue is shame and that everything else (such as my social anxiety) is merely a symptom of that. The thing is, when I had that epiphany I wasn't thinking in terms of Enneagram, it was just something that slowly become painfully aware to me as I practised self-therapy and faced some long-repressed inner demons. Part of the reason why I deleted the above post was because of SHAME - of revealing myself only to be misunderstood or rejected in some way. >_>


^^ This kinda blew my mind, too. 4 makes a lot of sense for you in hindsight. I'm also feeling some of the shame, if I contributed to pushing you in the wrong direction by jumping to conclusions. :sad: But it's exciting, too. :tears_of_joy:



The Perfect Storm said:


> Like I said, I really do appreciate the feedback. This is the most exciting conversation about my Enneatype I've had in AGES, lol.
> 
> I've had a few bad experiences in this thread so I always tread with caution because I am very sensitive (perhaps over-sensitive) to being (or feeling) misunderstood.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sort of regretting that I deleted it now as well! I focused mainly on why 6 and 7 both were and weren't good options for me (leaning more on core 6 because I just cannot relate to being out of touch with negative emotions in the way 7 is portrayed. I seriously find it hard to see myself as a "positive outlook" type, too. I'm super doom-and-gloom about life, lol). I guess, I've always related to the intensity of 6 and the feeling of being an outsider (is that a 6 thing or am I confusing it with 4? I have no idea any-more >_>).


7 was an awkward fit, I agree.



> Could you explain the difference between what you meant by "human" verses "anticipatory thought" defence?
> 
> I've had a quick look at those links (I also checked out sp 8 for my partner and omg, that's _him!_) It's interesting but after my recent epiphany I just can't see myself as a 7 any-more (wishful thinking, perhaps?) I think, deep down, I'd _love _to be a 7....they seem to embody everything that I wish I was. My partner has a friend who I believe is a core 7 and for ages I hated her because I was jealous of her confidence and carefree attitude, I suppose. She is the type of person that shines so brightly that you have to shield your eyes a little when you look at her, to protect your eyes from being blinded by the light. Perhaps sometimes I even try and act like a 7 because that's sort of partly what my idealised-self is (although, I'm conflicted about this because I also want to be seen as having integrity and emotional depth and to always be true to myself....yeah, I definitely have identity issues ).
> 
> The 6 stuff I relate to in the sense that part of my idealised self is to be someone who is dependable and is someone that others can rely on. I really don't relate to having any significant issues with authority (other than in a more shame-based way, i.e. "I've let them down...I'm worthless").
> 
> I read the 4 descriptions....:shocked:
> 
> I can't believe it but I think I relate to the So-first (then sx) 4 description the most. >_>
> 
> You've convinced me that I need to take a more in-depth look at type 4.


:hugs:


----------



## Brains

nburns said:


> ^^ This kinda blew my mind, too. 4 makes a lot of sense for you in hindsight. I'm also feeling some of the shame, if I contributed to pushing you in the wrong direction by jumping to conclusions. :sad: But it's exciting, too. :tears_of_joy


Life would probably be easier if you stopped insta-typing everyone as a nine.


----------



## nburns

Brains said:


> Life would probably be easier if you stopped insta-typing everyone as a nine.


I typed her as a 7. Never suggested 9.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_mimesis_

Oh wow, haha. That _is _very telling when I look back at it now.

@_nburns_

Honestly, a lot of people type me as 7 (and sometimes 6) when they first interact with me. I've never had anyone provide a convincing argument for any another type (except the time I typed as 1). I've always related to the intensity and reactivity of 6, and the frustration and idealism of 7, but I never quite "fit" either of them so I just assumed Enneagram was broken, lol (and to be fair, as the quote mimesis posted above illustrates; I have major issues with being labelled/put into box or feeling "misunderstood" in any way >_>).

So, don't feel bad! I've learnt a lot from this. Maybe now I can start enjoying Enneagram again (I'm sort of excited about it, I was a bit bummed out that I didn't have a type - I felt left out, lol). 

I'm going to roll with 4 for a while and see how it goes. Thanks everyone. ^_^


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> @_mimesis_
> 
> Oh wow, haha. That _is _very telling when I look back at it now.
> 
> @_nburns_
> 
> Honestly, a lot of people type me as 7 (and sometimes 6) when they first interact with me. I've never had anyone provide a convincing argument for any another type (except the time I typed as 1). I've always related to the intensity and reactivity of 6, and the frustration and idealism of 7, but I never quite "fit" either of them so I just assumed Enneagram was broken, lol (and to be fair, as the quote mimesis posted above illustrates; I have major issues with being labelled/put into box or feeling "misunderstood" in any way >_>).
> 
> So, don't feel bad! I've learnt a lot from this. Maybe now I can start enjoying Enneagram again (I'm sort of excited about it, I was a bit bummed out that I didn't have a type - I felt left out, lol).


I'm learning from this, too. I should have noticed the signs of 4 from the beginning. Maybe next time I will pay attention.


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> I've had a quick look at those links (I also checked out sp 8 for my partner and omg, that's _him!_) It's interesting but after my recent epiphany I just can't see myself as a 7 any-more (wishful thinking, perhaps?) I think, deep down, I'd _love _to be a 7....they seem to embody everything that I wish I was. My partner has a friend who I believe is a core 7 and for ages I hated her because I was jealous of her confidence and carefree attitude, I suppose. She is the type of person that shines so brightly that you have to shield your eyes a little when you look at her, to protect your eyes from being blinded by the light. Perhaps sometimes I even try and act like a 7 because that's sort of partly what my idealised-self is (although, I'm conflicted about this because I also want to be seen as having integrity and emotional depth and to always be true to myself....yeah, I definitely have identity issues ).


I hear a lot of (4ish) envy in that.


----------



## Kintsugi

nburns said:


> I'm learning from this, too. I should have noticed the signs of 4 from the beginning. Maybe next time I will pay attention.


Even if you had mentioned 4 to me, I may have rejected it (depending on my mood and how stable my sense of self was at that moment). Truthfully, there was a lot of (compensatory) arrogance to my whole approach to feeling that I was "typeless" and that the system was merely too simple for such a complex person, lol. As I always, I felt like an outsider, and that, _yet again, _nobody understood me. *violin music*

When I walk into a room the first thing I think is, "I am not like these people. I will never be accepted or understood." That's me in a nutshell (but you might not see that because I withdraw and keep this stuff to myself).



> I hear a lot of (4ish) envy in that.


Ikr? 

Again, I'm not comfortable expressing these things because of the intensity of the shame it creates inside me. I can tell that story now because of my recent epiphany, where I was able to acknowledge and accept that shame is my _core _issue and that everything else is just some form of manifestation of that.


----------



## Dalton

The Perfect Storm said:


> ...I have major issues with being labelled/put into box or feeling "misunderstood" in any way >_>).


Me too.



> I'm going to roll with 4 for a while and see how it goes. Thanks everyone. ^_^


I'll suggest 4, 6, or 7. We haven't talked for a while so I'll need a refresher, but last time we talked you seemed to be more 4 or 6 than 7 imo, but maybe that's just our Socionics "relations" influencing how I see you.

You know what, I'll just suggest 4 for now. The more I think of it, the more it makes sense. Condolences.


----------



## Kintsugi

Dalton said:


> I'll suggest 4, 6, or 7. We haven't talked for a while so I'll need a refresher, but last time we talked you seemed to be more 4 or 6 than 7 imo, but maybe that's just our Socionics "relations" influencing how I see you.
> 
> You know what, I'll just suggest 4 for now. The more I think of it, the more it makes sense. Condolences.


I think last time we talked a lot of this stuff was coming to a head (in terms of me realising things about myself, etc), so perhaps it was harder for me to "hide" the parts of myself that I'm most ashamed of. >_>

Thanks, lol.


----------



## psychologic

@Jakuri @Dyslexicon

Thanks for the answers. I can see how non-sp things can still be an sp-dom's "obsession" if it satisfies their appetite. What would you both say is the difference between an sx 9 and an sp 9 who uses sex and friends to run away from responsibilities? 

I'm asking because I'm trying to reconcile the dissonance I feel with my current typing, and of course figure out my instincts. I feel like an sp 9 INFP wouldn't be as outgoing, outspoken, or pleasure-seeking as I am, but I don't 100% fit the sx 9's description of total merging. A couple of my friends even think I'm a 7 and sometimes I think I'm a 6. I know an INFP sp 9 and I just can't handle her -- I feel bad because she's nice and friendly but it's like I'm drowning in awkward giggles and pointless apologies. It makes me grit my teeth and I can't see me being the same type as her. I'm nowhere near that self-effacing, and when I am, it's because I'm feeling tired or uncomfortable. 
@Dyslexicon I see you relate but you're so/sx. Would you say this is more of a type issue than an instinct one?


----------



## zanderp

I would like to talk to people and have them help figure out my enneagram type for sure  but I don't talk to people anymore. Making friends was put on the back burner for a while during some life stuff, so I feel like "herpen derpen hurrrrr" when I try to interact nowadays. Lol


----------



## angelfish

The Perfect Storm said:


> Like I said, I really do appreciate the feedback. This is the most exciting conversation about my Enneatype I've had in AGES, lol.


Aw, that's awesome, I'm so glad!!



> I've had a few bad experiences in this thread so I always tread with caution because I am very sensitive (perhaps over-sensitive) to being (or feeling) misunderstood.


Yeah, I understand. Opening figuring out your type - particularly e-type - to a group can be both helpful and affirming as well as frustrating and emotionally endangering. 



> I'm sort of regretting that I deleted it now as well! I focused mainly on why 6 and 7 both were and weren't good options for me (leaning more on core 6 because I just cannot relate to being out of touch with negative emotions in the way 7 is portrayed. I seriously find it hard to see myself as a "positive outlook" type, too. I'm super doom-and-gloom about life, lol). I guess, I've always related to the intensity of 6 and the feeling of being an outsider (is that a 6 thing or am I confusing it with 4? I have no idea any-more >_>).


I think 6s can feel that, but it might correlate more to social instinct/4 overlap. My suspicion is that you just so happened to touch on something that pinged with me as a Social 6, and it happened to be something that soc 6 and 4 share. We got lucky  



> Could you explain the difference between what you meant by "human" verses "anticipatory thought" defence?


Yeah, absolutely. It's only a vague impression, but what I mean is that when you talked about negativity/stress/conflict/etc., it seemed to be couched in situations and/or terminology having to do with you, the way you see yourself, and your relation to other people. That strikes me as a heart center 2/3/4 sort of thing, where core issues are wound up in the way individuals seem themselves in relation to other individuals. Whereas, in contrast, for head center 5/6/7, our negativity is typically wound up in our relation to the environment of ideas/resources/structures. Social and sexual instinct can confound this a bit, I think, but ultimately head center issues aren't really to do with people relating, but about whether we can deal with our environments, so they end up being less interpersonal and more dry. I didn't really see much of that in what you were saying. You seemed illustrative and personal, rather than strategic and logistical.



> I've had a quick look at those links (I also checked out sp 8 for my partner and omg, that's _him!_) It's interesting but after my recent epiphany I just can't see myself as a 7 any-more (wishful thinking, perhaps?) I think, deep down, I'd _love _to be a 7....they seem to embody everything that I wish I was. My partner has a friend who I believe is a core 7 and for ages I hated her because I was jealous of her confidence and carefree attitude, I suppose. She is the type of person that shines so brightly that you have to shield your eyes a little when you look at her, to protect your eyes from being blinded by the light. Perhaps sometimes I even try and act like a 7 because that's sort of partly what my idealised-self is (although, I'm conflicted about this because I also want to be seen as having integrity and emotional depth and to always be true to myself....yeah, I definitely have identity issues ).


Well, and certainly quite possible that 7 is still a player in your personality. We all theoretically harbor all enneatypes within us, just in varying percentages, so maybe part of what you see in 7 is both relation to yourself and envy of others. 

I do understand what you mean about 7, incidentally. My cousin is an ENFP 7 and she is one of those wonderful, enthusiastic, always-positive, always-encouraging, always-fun, always-energetic people. But I've gotten to see some of her more-private pain recently and I feel for her as well. 7s are always running. 



> The 6 stuff I relate to in the sense that part of my idealised self is to be someone who is dependable and is someone that others can rely on. I really don't relate to having any significant issues with authority (other than in a more shame-based way, i.e. "I've let them down...I'm worthless").


Yeah, 6s have inborn authority issues. Lol. 



> I read the 4 descriptions....:shocked:
> 
> I can't believe it but I think I relate to the So-first (then sx) 4 description the most. >_>
> 
> You've convinced me that I need to take a more in-depth look at type 4.


Well, I didn't even mean to convince, but I'm glad that it resonates with you and that it's exciting for you!! :congratulatory::star:


----------



## nburns

zanderp said:


> I would like to talk to people and have them help figure out my enneagram type for sure  but I don't talk to people anymore. Making friends was put on the back burner for a while during some life stuff, so I feel like "herpen derpen hurrrrr" when I try to interact nowadays. Lol


You're probably a 9, anywho. :laughing:


----------



## angelfish

rhythmic said:


> I'm asking because I'm trying to reconcile the dissonance I feel with my current typing, and of course figure out my instincts. I feel like an sp 9 INFP wouldn't be as outgoing, outspoken, or pleasure-seeking as I am, but I don't 100% fit the sx 9's description of total merging. A couple of my friends even think I'm a 7 and sometimes I think I'm a 6. I know an INFP sp 9 and I just can't handle her -- I feel bad because she's nice and friendly but it's like I'm drowning in awkward giggles and pointless apologies. It makes me grit my teeth and I can't see me being the same type as her. I'm nowhere near that self-effacing, and when I am, it's because I'm feeling tired or uncomfortable.


Hope you don't mind me butting in but I have a good friend I'm pretty sure is a sp/sx 9w1 INFP and she's not super self-effacing. She actually could even get pretty stubborn and principled if we talked about religion or ethics. If I couldn't type her as 9w1, I'd type her as 7w6, but she's really not that high-energy or scattered. Probably 9w1-7w6-4w5. She's easygoing, positive, self-reliant, affable, a little nerdy, a little goofy, kind of weird, fits in easily anywhere, loves to travel, loves food, works as an assistant ESL teacher in Asia. I'd say her primary traits are her all-inclusiveness, her idealism, and her agreeableness.


----------



## Kintsugi

angelfish said:


> Yeah, absolutely. It's only a vague impression, but what I mean is that when you talked about negativity/stress/conflict/etc., it seemed to be couched in situations and/or terminology having to do with you, the way you see yourself, and your relation to other people. That strikes me as a heart center 2/3/4 sort of thing, where core issues are wound up in the way individuals seem themselves in relation to other individuals. Whereas, in contrast, for head center 5/6/7, our negativity is typically wound up in our relation to the environment of ideas/resources/structures. Social and sexual instinct can confound this a bit, I think, but ultimately head center issues aren't really to do with people relating, but about whether we can deal with our environments, so they end up being less interpersonal and more dry. I didn't really see much of that in what you were saying. You seemed illustrative and personal, rather than strategic and logistical.


Hmm. I think I must have misunderstood type 6 quite a bit...

I thought that 6 was very much about issues related to others/people; in the sense that 6 is concerned with safety/security (understanding motives) but also loyalty. I have heard and see 6's passionately defend those that they trust and care about when they perceive them to be under attack. Perhaps this does have something to do with the instincts, though.



> _Well, and certainly quite possible that 7 is still a player in your personality. We all theoretically harbor all enneatypes within us, just in varying percentages, so maybe part of what you see in 7 is both relation to yourself and envy of others. _
> 
> _I do understand what you mean about 7, incidentally. My cousin is an ENFP 7 and she is one of those wonderful, enthusiastic, always-positive, always-encouraging, always-fun, always-energetic people. But I've gotten to see some of her more-private pain recently and I feel for her as well. 7s are always running. _


I do still relate to 7 a lot (as well as 1). Tbh, I have always found it easy to relate to the 3 frustration types. With 6 I tend to find it easy to relate to some of the behavioural traits but when I start looking at the motivations I find myself disagreeing.

I still think there is a possibility that I could be a 6, I'm not ruling it out completely at this point. I guess, it's confusing because 6's and 4's can look alike and from what I understand, they can both feel different (like outsiders), they believe it is important to know/understand yourself, and both have a strong desire to be authentic and true to themselves. I relate very strongly to all three of these things, I'm just trying to figure out if it's in a more 4 or 6ish way.

I've always felt that there is something inherently wrong with me. From as early as I can remember in childhood I felt different, like I never quite fit in anywhere; and this was a source of both discomfort (shame), but also pride. Truth be told, I am more comfortable being "different" than I am feeling like I am part of something larger (like a group or subculture). When I was about 7 or 8 years old some relatives gave me clothes for presents at Christmas. The clothes were very girly and nearly all of them had some shade of pink on them. I got very frustrated at this and I remember thinking to myself, "why should I wear pink just like all the other girls in my class?" I stormed upstairs to my bedroom, found some fabric pens, and proceeded to write in very big letters on a bright fuchsia t-shirt: "I HATE PINK." I then put the t-shirt on, when downstairs and happily twirled around and showed everyone my new creation. I felt MUCH better after having made it my "own", lol.

Now you could look at the story above and read it different ways. Were my actions the result of me "rebelling" against "authority" (being told that I must dress a certain way); or perhaps it was more about my needing to express my individuality?...or perhaps it was a little of both? Personally, I think it was about individuality. I've always had a strong desire to be ME and anything or anyone who tries to get in my way will likely experience the more emotionally turbulent side of me.

I think I need to go back a re-look at both 6 and 4 to get my head around this.


----------



## zanderp

nburns said:


> You're probably a 9, anywho. :laughing:


Yeah probably a 9w9 :wink:


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> Hmm. I think I must have misunderstood type 6 quite a bit...
> 
> I thought that 6 was very much about issues related to others/people; in the sense that 6 is concerned with safety/security (understanding motives) but also loyalty. I have heard and see 6's passionately defend those that they trust and care about when they perceive them to be under attack. Perhaps this does have something to do with the instincts, though.


That's not exactly wrong, but I sense that you could be mislocating the emphasis.



> I do still relate to 7 a lot (as well as 1). Tbh, I have always found it easy to relate to the 3 frustration types. With 6 I tend to find it easy to relate to some of the behavioural traits but when I start looking at the motivations I find myself disagreeing.
> 
> I still think there is a possibility that I could be a 6, I'm not ruling it out completely at this point. I guess, it's confusing because 6's and 4's can look alike and from what I understand, they can both feel different (like outsiders), they believe it is important to know/understand yourself, and both have a strong desire to be authentic and true to themselves. I relate very strongly to all three of these things, I'm just trying to figure out if it's in a more 4 or 6ish way.


I'm not sure I totally agree with that. 6 is a little bit of everything mashed together. 6 is too complex to sum up in a few words, so I'm not going to attempt it...

4 is frankly easier to define than 6.



> I've always felt that there is something inherently wrong with me. From as early as I can remember in childhood I felt different, like I never quite fit in anywhere; and this was a source of both discomfort (shame), but also pride. Truth be told, I am more comfortable being "different" than I am feeling like I am part of something larger (like a group or subculture). When I was about 7 or 8 years old some relatives gave me clothes for presents at Christmas. The clothes were very girly and nearly all of them had some shade of pink on them. I got very frustrated at this and I remember thinking to myself, "why should I wear pink just like all the other girls in my class?" I stormed upstairs to my bedroom, found some fabric pens, and proceeded to write in very big letters on a bright fuchsia t-shirt: "I HATE PINK." I then put the t-shirt on, when downstairs and happily twirled around and showed everyone my new creation. I felt MUCH better after having made it my "own", lol.
> 
> Now you could look at the story above and read it different ways. Were my actions the result of me "rebelling" against "authority" (being told that I must dress a certain way); or perhaps it was more about my needing to express my individuality?...or perhaps it was a little of both? Personally, I think it was about individuality. I've always had a strong desire to be ME and anything or anyone who tries to get in my way will likely experience the more emotionally turbulent side of me.


I actually see that story as pretty 4ish. What I see as important is the fact that you cared enough about your image to do that. Most other types would have dealt with it differently, e.g., even if a 9 didn't like pink, she would probably smile and say thank you and then stuff it in a drawer and not wear it. It seems pretty imagey to have to broadcast your dislike of pink.



> I think I need to go back a re-look at both 6 and 4 to get my head around this.


----------



## nburns

zanderp said:


> Yeah probably a 9w9 :wink:


Yup. Your tritype is 999. :wink:


----------



## Kintsugi

@nburns

Yeah, I've always struggled to get my head around 6. On the surface it seems simple but as soon as I start delving into it I get lost (perhaps I'm just approaching it from an awkward angle, idk). >_>

Any 6s out there wanna help me understand?


----------



## FearAndTrembling

The Perfect Storm said:


> Hmm. I think I must have misunderstood type 6 quite a bit...
> 
> I thought that 6 was very much about issues related to others/people; in the sense that 6 is concerned with safety/security (understanding motives) but also loyalty. I have heard and see 6's passionately defend those that they trust and care about when they perceive them to be under attack. Perhaps this does have something to do with the instincts, though.
> 
> 
> 
> I do still relate to 7 a lot (as well as 1). Tbh, I have always found it easy to relate to the 3 frustration types. With 6 I tend to find it easy to relate to some of the behavioural traits but when I start looking at the motivations I find myself disagreeing.
> 
> I still think there is a possibility that I could be a 6, I'm not ruling it out completely at this point. I guess, it's confusing because 6's and 4's can look alike and from what I understand, they can both feel different (like outsiders), they believe it is important to know/understand yourself, and both have a strong desire to be authentic and true to themselves. I relate very strongly to all three of these things, I'm just trying to figure out if it's in a more 4 or 6ish way.
> 
> I've always felt that there is something inherently wrong with me. From as early as I can remember in childhood I felt different, like I never quite fit in anywhere; and this was a source of both discomfort (shame), but also pride. Truth be told, I am more comfortable being "different" than I am feeling like I am part of something larger (like a group or subculture). When I was about 7 or 8 years old some relatives gave me clothes for presents at Christmas. The clothes were very girly and nearly all of them had some shade of pink on them. I got very frustrated at this and I remember thinking to myself, "why should I wear pink just like all the other girls in my class?" I stormed upstairs to my bedroom, found some fabric pens, and proceeded to write in very big letters on a bright fuchsia t-shirt: "I HATE PINK." I then put the t-shirt on, when downstairs and happily twirled around and showed everyone my new creation. I felt MUCH better after having made it my "own", lol.
> 
> Now you could look at the story above and read it different ways. Were my actions the result of me "rebelling" against "authority" (being told that I must dress a certain way); or perhaps it was more about my needing to express my individuality?...or perhaps it was a little of both? Personally, I think it was about individuality. I've always had a strong desire to be ME and anything or anyone who tries to get in my way will likely experience the more emotionally turbulent side of me.
> 
> I think I need to go back a re-look at both 6 and 4 to get my head around this.


For what it's worth, Riso associated 6 with Jung's Introverted Feeling type. Seems to be in line with Keirsey labelling Fi types as "champions" and "advocates" of people.

He associated Ni with 4 and Ti with 5. Fe with 2.


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> @nburns
> 
> Yeah, I've always struggled to get my head around 6. On the surface it seems simple but as soon as I start delving into it I get lost (perhaps I'm just approaching it from an awkward angle, idk). >_>
> 
> Any 6s out there wanna help me understand?


Learning more about 6 would be fun, and you should, but for the sake self-typing, it's not really necessary. If you are a good fit for 4, then you can eliminate 6.


----------



## Kintsugi

@FearAndTrembling

Hmm. I treat Enneagram and JFC/Socionics/MBTI, etc as separate systems. The focus is on different things, imo.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> I relate a lot to 4 motivations but when I read the descriptions (of how this might manifest) I suddenly find myself shaking my head. On the other hand, with 6, I relate a lot to the descriptions (behaviours and traits) but when I read about the motivations there is a disconnect (unless of course I'm just misunderstanding it).
> 
> EDIT: @_Mordred Phantom_
> 
> Sorry, didn't respond to this part!
> 
> The triad I relate to the least is "positive outlook" (which is amusing seeing as I typed at 7 for so long )
> 
> I also struggle to see myself as a "competency" type (I suggested this to my partner once and he pretty much laughed in my face. But then, the guy has HIGH standards).
> 
> "reactive" type? - I'm going to say most likely.
> 
> "assertive" type? - I'm confused by this one
> 
> "Withdrawn" - this kind of fits.
> 
> "compliant" - I'm honestly not sure - maybe?
> 
> "frustration" - Definitely.


This narrows the options to 4,6 and 8. I've only heard something about existential anxiety for 6, but sadly I really don't grasp this type well. The motivations can be difficult to understand, so that could be the reason why you're a hard time telling the types apart. Now I wonder if relating to frustration could be caused by a 4 and/or 1 fix, so I don't know if explaining better what makes sense for you about those triads could clear anything. With this you would be a 4, but that's not enough information for being sure.


----------



## Brains

The Perfect Storm said:


> "reactive" type? - I'm going to say most likely.
> 
> "assertive" type? - I'm confused by this one
> 
> "Withdrawn" - this kind of fits.
> 
> "compliant" - I'm honestly not sure - maybe?
> 
> "frustration" - Definitely.


A lot of this can be plain depression or other severe trouble, so I'd be wary with those kinds of identifications.


----------



## Kintsugi

Mordred Phantom said:


> This narrows the options to 4,6 and 8. I've only heard something about existential anxiety for 6, but sadly I really don't grasp this type well. The motivations can be difficult to understand, so that could be the reason why you're a hard time telling the types apart. Now I wonder if relating to frustration could be caused by a 4 and/or 1 fix, so I don't know if explaining better what makes sense for you about those triads could clear anything. With this you would be a 4, but that's not enough information for being sure.


I'm *definitely* not an 8 (not even a fix), lol. 

You know, you bring up a good point. I've been wondering if I'm a core 6 with two frustration-type fixes. It would make sense....



Brains said:


> A lot of this can be plain depression or other severe trouble, so I'd be wary with those kinds of identifications.


You're right. Part of the reason why this process is confusing and complicated for me is that I'm coming out of a rather dark time in my life (confronting trauma and processing repressed emotions, etc). I may just be relating to 4 because I'm more in touch with parts of myself that I was cut-off from before.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> I'm *definitely* not an 8 (not even a fix), lol.
> 
> You know, you bring up a good point. I've been wondering if I'm a core 6 with two frustration-type fixes. It would make sense....
> 
> You're right. Part of the reason why this process is confusing and complicated for me is that I'm coming out of a rather dark time in my life (confronting trauma and processing repressed emotions, etc). I may just be relating to 4 because I'm more in touch with parts of myself that I was cut-off from before.


I think that you will need to wait and see what makes sense for you in the long run. The trauma processing could be the thing that's confusing you and you can't see clearly which core is more likely. Maybe recalling how you deal with issues before may help to get a better idea, as it would be a pattern.


----------



## Kintsugi

6 is making more and *MORE *sense....

Am I overcomplicating things by bringing tritype into this? For me, 6 core feels RIGHT when I look at it through the lens of having 4 and 1 fixes.


----------



## enneathusiast

The Perfect Storm said:


> On the other hand, with 6, I relate a lot to the descriptions (behaviours and traits) but when I read about the motivations there is a disconnect (unless of course I'm just misunderstanding it).
> 
> Ah thanks, that would be helpful! (I want to hear a case for 6, it might help me fill in the gaps).
> 
> With 6, it's the motivations that I'm not fully understanding or seeing how they "fit". For example, I'm not really "security orientated". I mean, I wouldn't call myself reckless, but I don't spend large amounts of my time worrying or contemplating what might go wrong, etc. when my anxiety arises it related to specific triggers that are associated with past trauma (which I won't go into here).
> 
> I actually started a thread on this in the 6 forum, but I don't quite understand what is meant when people say that 6 find faith and security in systems and structures (when I hear this I tend to think of social groups, family, religion, political ideologies, etc). Also, I'm not feeling the whole needing to find someone/something to "trust" and depend on...I just can't see it in myself?
> 
> I suspect my understanding of 6 is poor so please feel free to point me in a better direction.


IME, what is often said about 6 seems to miss the mark a bit. Maybe these would fit better as core issues in thinking about 6w7.

Doubt - an uncertainty that circles back again and again that continually gets rehashed and is difficult to resolve by oneself. You may look outside to others for answers that provide reassurance and resolution.

Trust - more about looking underneath the surface with people to see what you can trust and what's really going on with that person (not so much looking for an institution or group or system). Sometimes having to anticipate what's going on with an unpredictable person early in life may be the trigger for developing this habit of attention (may also go along with projection below).

Projection - has to do with projecting one's thoughts/feelings onto another person as if you know what they might be thinking/feeling or what they should be thinking/feeling from their perspective or situation.


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> 6 is making more and *MORE *sense....
> 
> Am I overcomplicating things by bringing tritype into this?


In my opinion, yes.

6s are not 4ish. You can't be a not-4ish type and then sprinkle back in a little bit of 4 via tritype to balance it out. It doesn't work that way IMO.


----------



## Kintsugi

enneathusiast said:


> IME, what is often said about 6 seems to miss the mark a bit. Maybe these would fit better as core issues in thinking about 6w7.
> 
> Doubt - an uncertainty that circles back again and again that continually gets rehashed and is difficult to resolve by oneself. You may look outside to others for answers that provide reassurance and resolution.


I think I can safely say that this fits, lol. Er...all you have to do is look at my issues trying to understand Enneagram to see that. 

I think one of my biggest issues concerning self-doubt is that I am constantly questioning who I am (identity crises are not uncommon here). I'd say that my primary focus in life is to understand and accept who I am (and to keep on exploring and developing, so that I can become the best version of myself). 

I often have moments where I think I've "got it" and then something causes me to start doubting myself again.

So...perhaps the "support system" I am in search for is something that helps me understand _who _I am?



> Trust - more about looking underneath the surface with people to see what you can trust and what's really going on with that person (not so much looking for an institution or group or system). Sometimes having to anticipate what's going on with an unpredictable person early in life may be the trigger for developing this habit of attention (may also go along with projection below).


I come from a pretty dysfunctional family (have a very unhealthy and unpredictable mother, so yeah, that fits). I wasn't sure whether this aspect of me was type related or whether or not it is just a developmental thing. I guess this boils down to the nature/nurture debate again.

Thinking about it, I guess trust is a big issue for me. But then, if you look at my past/history, it's not surprising really. I had to be hyper-vigilant in order to survive (and not be rejected). There is also intense feelings of shame I have to manage when I "open up" and allow myself to be vulnerable with people (which is probably the result of being severely shamed for being myself growing up in my family).



> Projection - has to do with projecting one's thoughts/feelings onto another person as if you know what they might be thinking/feeling or what they should be thinking/feeling from their perspective or situation.


Yeah, I do have a tendency to project when under stress. 


Thanks for the breakdown, it was very helpful! I'm definitely leaning 6w7 at this point.


----------



## mimesis

The Perfect Storm said:


> You should have seen what I did to my Barbie dolls. I turned them into punks and goths, put them on trial, and then executed them with a kitchen knife in front of my teddy-bears (French Revolution style). ^_^


Interesting! So what was the accusation in the trial of the people (or teddybears) vs punks and goths?


----------



## angelfish

The Perfect Storm said:


> PLOT TWIST :shocked:
> 
> I think 6 is a better fit for me (no, I'm not joking).
> 
> I'm not sure I have the words (or attention span) to explain why this is right now.
> 
> I just...idk. Something about 4 doesn't feel right.
> 
> EDIT: okay...I _still _can't relate to the 6 stuff either. UUUUGGGHHHH. I thought I had finally cracked it.


Don't worry! You'll figure it out eventually. 



The Perfect Storm said:


> Well, I've always said that there is 4 in me (if not my core then my heart-fix for sure).
> 
> I guess, when I talk about "shame" I'm confused about whether or not I am confusing image-type "shame" with toxic/internalised shame (the result of emotional interpersonal trauma). It's the same way I also get confused about type 6 "anxiety" verses having an anxiety disorder (which, from what I understand, any type can suffer from).


Mm, that makes sense. 

It might be helpful to try keeping a daily log of significant thoughts/feelings/events, and to check it out after a week or so to see if you can identify any major overarching patterns. 

Anyway, I can try to help clarify more 6-things 



> With 6, it's the motivations that I'm not fully understanding or seeing how they "fit". For example, I'm not really "security orientated". I mean, I wouldn't call myself reckless, but I don't spend large amounts of my time worrying or contemplating what might go wrong, etc. when my anxiety arises it related to specific triggers that are associated with past trauma (which I won't go into here).


6, particularly 6w7, is an anticipatory thinking type, and has a tendency to dream up everything that can go wrong. It's less of a conscious choice and more of an unconscious habit, since it's 6's defense mechanism to identify problems to troubleshoot. I sometimes find myself weaving these weird, elaborate mental scenarios of what major thing will go wrong and how I'll fix it while I'm zoning out on a physical task. The bright side is we're generally one step ahead in terms of fixing areas that are weak, and in the very rare case that your workplace does spontaneously combust, the 6s probably know where the nearest fire exit is. The downside is that we have a hard time just stepping back, relaxing, and enjoying. Fortunately the 7 wing tends to help with that (though it also tends to make us a bit scattered).

6's security seeking doesn't always mean "survivalist" style security - especially for a sp-last 6 like me, life-preserving concerns are usually pretty low on my list. "Security" concerns can arise essentially anywhere that change is a possibility, particularly where it would have a negative outcome: relationship security, friendship security, group security, job security, and so on. For me, I tend to be super, super observant of micro-interactions between myself and others, and I get very nervous and feel compelled to immediately correct if I feel like I've upset someone like my mom, my work partner, or my manager. It's a bit obsessive-compulsive in the true, clinical meaning of the disorder: feeling like you _have_ to do something otherwise something terrible will happen. 



> I actually started a thread on this in the 6 forum, but I don't quite understand what is meant when people say that 6 find faith and security in systems and structures (when I hear this I tend to think of social groups, family, religion, political ideologies, etc). Also, I'm not feeling the whole needing to find someone/something to "trust" and depend on...I just can't see it in myself?


Yes, you're right about the structural examples. 6s tend to feel like there is a lack of solid foundation in the world in general (projection - truth being that we lack a solid foundation of confidence in ourselves), and as such seek out solidity in the environment. That could manifest in any number of entities, from a religion to a philosophy to a place to certain people. Theoretically, the less change inherent in that entity and/or the better it copes with change, the more appealing it will be. 6w7s especially have a hard time trusting ourselves and feeling confident in our own choices and decisions, so we tend to gather little "committees" to check with before making big decisions - for me it's my fiance, my mom, my brother - but for some it could be their religion, etc. The core of it is that we are unsure of ourselves, so we look for something else that we can feel sure about.

So you can sort of see the similarity between 4 and 6 there and why it can be confusing - we both share a certain internal instability. The Enneagram Institute talks about how generally when a 4 is disappointed in themself, it's because they've led _themself_ astray, whereas when a 6 is disappointed in themself, it's usually because they've upset someone else. The 6's disappointment can be resolved with reassurance from someone they look to for security. 4's disappointment comes from their own internal conception of themself, so it can't be resolved externally. (They also point out that while both 4s and 6s can be artists, 4s tend more to be original creators while 6s tend to illustrate or at least to base their work off some concept in existence, whether a traditionalist classical musician who is following a style or a rebellious punk rocker who is intentionally deviating from what exists.)

The Enneagram Blogspot also describes this difference: 



> The main question [to determine 4 vs 6] is, why is this person's F (sense of self, emotion) so strong? Is it * over-stimulated* by T (imagination, cognitive), or is it *disconnected* from T (sense of guidance, cognitive).
> 
> Is there a imaginative sense of guidance for the understanding of who the self is, an idealized, shame-based and emotion-based dramatic sense of who their personality, talents, abilities, etc. are? Shame-based manifests in extreme self-love in comparing to others, and extreme self-hatred in comparing to others, and these others are idealized as both more wonderful and normal and as more boring and normal than they themselves could ever be; can also react as normal or untalented, disparing of their weaknesses, to protect the self.
> 
> [this is 4]
> 
> Or, is there a cognitive, analytical process which manifests separately from their sense of self, a sense of self which is thoughtlessly emotion-based and fear-based dedicated or rebellious towards a person/cause/group viewed as an authoritative power in the world? Fear-based manifests in paranoia, delusion, irrational fears, and sometimes violence; can also react as pathetic or weak to protect the self.
> 
> [this is 6]


I came back to edit this post because I have a pretty 6ish example from my workday today: I had a short amount of time allocated to me with a trainer this afternoon, and, in the midst of that timespan, one of my supervisors instructed me to leave my training to help with another department's work, which is technically out of my realm of responsibility. The internal tug-of-war upset me. I do not feel comfortable explicitly disobeying my supervisor without a blatantly good reason, but I also feel like he frequently mismanages my time and is generally disrespectful of boundaries. I also dislike working in the other department, and have turned down job offers in it. As it turned out, when I got there, there was nothing that I was able to help with anyway, so it was a complete waste of my time to unload my usual supplies, get different supplies, and piddle around over there trying to figure out what there was that I could do. I spent a chunk of time pissy about the situation, since I had a backlog of my own work, and spent some time while I was doing physical tasks sort of unhappily ruminating about how I might keep getting pulled away and how my department was behind and so on. Later, when the head manager checked in with me, I told him about the above situation, since I've been having a consistent problem with that supervisor constantly taking me away from my work, but then after that I spent a lot of time feeling anxious about how the head manager felt about me and whether I was being a thorn in his side with complaints. I feel anxious in general about his opinion of me since he's the new big-guy-in-charge. 



> You should have seen what I did to my Barbie dolls. I turned them into punks and goths, put them on trial, and then executed them with a kitchen knife in front of my teddy-bears (French Revolution style). ^_^


That's awesome. :laughing:


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> Interesting! So what was the accusation in the trial of the people (or teddybears) vs punks and goths?


It's really not that exciting, lol.

When I was younger I had a friend who was super kooky and crazy, she always had awesome ideas and when we played imaginary games together she would come out with the strangest and most amusing scenarios. I was a pretty strange child myself but she took things to the next level. She was awesome. I wanted to be her, lol.

When I went around to her house for dinner one day she showed me her collection of Barbie dolls. She had turned all the Barbies into goths and punks and told me that that evening she was planning on cutting all their heads off (at midnight), because her cousin had told her that if you did it at that time, then _real _human blood would run out of the dolls bodies. *cheesy dramatic horror music and the evil cackling of a madman can be heard in the distance :ninja:*

I was a naive child and immediately taken in by this (I also had a morbid fascination with anything gory or scary from a young age). I made the decision right there and then, that I too would punk-up my Barbie dolls and cut off their heads when the clock struck midnight (in the hope that the rumour would come true).

Well, unfortunately for me, I fell asleep before midnight. >_>

I was pretty bummed by this but I decided to destroy my Barbie dolls anyway (I've always been more of a tomboy, really). Ever since I can remember I have enjoyed creating entertaining characters and acting them out by myself or to my friends, just for fun. One of the characters was a crazy French-man (I can't remember his name, but I do know that I used to stick a pencil under my nose and pretend that it was a French-style moustache. I also has did a terrible French accent to go along with this). I think the French Revolution setting must have had something to do with me being inspired by a history book on the subject (I used to read a tongue-in-cheek series called "Horrible Histories" when I was a child). 

So...I have no idea what the accusation was, but the background story is somewhat entertaining. 


@_angelfish_

Thank you so much for your very informative post! ^_^

I will take some time to think over some of the points you have made. I'm trying not to "distract" myself with 
Enneagram too much right now as I'm supposed to be organising a wedding. Eeek.

I'm keeping the 6w7 sticker for now (I think it suits me). I will probably revisit this sometime in the near future.


----------



## mimesis

@The Perfect Storm

I was interested in Barbie dolls, in particular to see what was underneath their outfits. 

They didn't have nipples though, which was utterly confusing. Same with Ken. 

:sad: sigh

The first barbies did have nipples btw. At least you can't blame Mattel for penis envy. :tongue:


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> I was pretty bummed by this but I decided to destroy my Barbie dolls anyway (I've always been more of a tomboy, really).


I wonder what the male equivalent of a tomboy is. I played with my little sister in her room sometimes and I remember the Barbies being all over, naked and probably headless. I wasn't too interested in them, but I wasn't too interested in GI Joe and that stuff, either. I was more into Legos, which was pretty gender-neutral.


----------



## Kintsugi

mimesis said:


> @_The Perfect Storm_
> 
> I was interested in Barbie dolls, in particular to see what was underneath their outfits.
> 
> They didn't have nipples though, which was utterly confusing. Same with Ken.
> 
> :sad: sigh
> 
> The first barbies did have nipples btw. At least you can't blame Mattel for penis envy. :tongue:


Did you have a breast and nipple fascination when you were little? There is 8 years between my younger brother and I, and I remember when he hit 4-5 he suddenly because fascinated with them (especially mine, lol). It became a bit of an issue when he started talking about my breasts and asking to squeeze them in public. 

Apparently I went through a bit of a "penis" stage myself. Relatives tell me I would wander up to strangers in the street and ask them if they had a "willy". I was very confused by the whole situation, lol.

This also reminds me of an old Uni friend who once told me that when she was little she went through a phase where she was utterly convinced that she had "lost" her vagina, but was too scared to tell anyone about it. :laughing:





nburns said:


> I wonder what the male equivalent of a tomboy is. I played with my little sister in her room sometimes and I remember the Barbies being all over, naked and probably headless. I wasn't too interested in them, but I wasn't too interested in GI Joe and that stuff, either. I was more into Legos, which was pretty gender-neutral.


I LOVED lego (and still do!) I inherited a massive box of lego pieces from an older cousin and it was definitely one of my favourite things to play with. 

On the subject of childhood toys; yesterday I as out running errands like a headless chicken (organising wedding stuff) and had a little bit of a meltdown in public, when I discovered that it would be impossible to purchase a wedding dress that had my caught my eye because of time constraints. I sat down on a random bench and burst into tears (and may have sent my fiancée a dramatic text declaring that the wedding is off, lol). While I pulled myself together I noticed that I was sitting outside a massive "Toys R Us" store....

I needed cheering up so I went inside and spent the next hour or so looking at toys (mainly the doll and Barbie section). Apparently Barbie has become a feminist, there was a, "You can be anything" range....which amused me somewhat (and is also quite interesting from a cultural perspective.)

Now that I've hit my 30s I find myself being drawn to girly toys, perhaps I was repressing that part of myself when I was little? I still don't particularly like pink, but I do have a guilty little secret....

I enjoy making dolls. 

And by that I mean VIRTUAL DOLLS!

Look, the other day I made X-Girl dolls based on the 9 Enneatypes (I can't believe I'm showing this, lol): 









Btw, if anyone else wants to play this is a good website: Doll Divine ~ Anime & Fantasy Dress Up Games ~ ???? ?? ???


----------



## Animal

@The Perfect Storm
Sorry I have been super busy and haven't had a chance to quote you to demonstrate this, but I will soon -
But I wanted to direct you to this post I just wrote - curious if you relate or how you'd feel about it.. 



Animal said:


> Yeah. Anxiety and cautiousness are not at the root of six, however. Anyone can have anxiety. I'm a 487 tritype, head fix last and no 6 at all, and I'm anxious because I have PTSD, and I've always been somewhat high-strung when it comes to competing etc, which is normal for an Sx 4.. but then what would make me a 4.. identity issues as a centrality rather than head issues.
> 
> At the core of six - think of the game "trust." Imagine yourself falling backwards, and knowing you will catch yourself. That's trust. Sixes, deep down, feel like if they fall back, they won't be able to catch themselves. So they are cautious before taking leaps for that reason. It doesn't have to be caution where day to day things are concerned though. A six can race on his bike through traffic, or rule an evil army (Hitler) or expose her heartfelt emotions to the skies (Amy Lee, Matt Bellamy). It depends in what specific way the six feels like the ground beneath them isn't stable.. it might not be obvious. Some sixes feel comfortable diving into their feelings (Fi-first sixes), others feel comfortable in the world (Te, Fe or Se sixes), others feel most comfortable challenging their own mind (Ti, Ne or Ni sixes), etc. But what they crave is some support system that will catch them when they fall. This support system can come from within, and usually does. Most sixes don't relate to the idea of an outside support system; they actually, more than many people, go way out of their way to be internally supported, to use their mind to do this for them. So they are skeptical thinkers because they want to firm up the groundwork in their own mind. This might or might not translate to typical "caution." I'm super cautious about what I eat and being around people because I have an immune system issue and a chronic illness. I don't watch horror movies because I have nightmares due to my own trauma and over sensitivity. But I'm not a six. Some six friends of mine would watch horror or try new food without a problem. But in some central way, they feel like if they don't build up some sort of support system (externally or internally), they will fall. This is why on some level they can't "let go." It's exemplified well in this video, how a 6 feels about a 9, or the idea of 9.. that he would just be floating in endless space... yet he envies this mindset because he wants to be able to let go..


----------



## Kintsugi

@_Animal_

Thanks for the reply (don't worry, I'm super busy too, atm!)

Can I ask you to clarify what you meant by "head" issues (I think I understand what you meant by "identity issues" but I was unsure about this part).

I admit, I am struggling to relate to what you wrote in the quote you posted about type 6. I don't consider "trust" to be a significant issue for me; actually, there have been times in my life where I have been too trusting (I could probably benefit from exercising more caution in certain areas). Regardless, it is fair to say that I am definitely cautious when getting to know and establish relationships with people (I am very socially withdrawn and hold most people at arms length). The reasons for this are complicated. As I have mentioned, I do have a history of interpersonal trauma that has undoubtedly affected me (I believe that I suffer from C-PTSD, an attachment-disorder that makes intimacy very difficult and extremely triggering for me). The result of this is that I have spent large amounts of my life living in a state of self-imposed isolation from others, which has left me feeling somewhat disconnected and "alienated" from everyone else and the world around me (which is perhaps why I relate so strongly to some type 4 descriptions).

I'm still finding it hard to pinpoint what my "support system" might be. Similarly, the way in which I would describe myself as feeling "unstable" is in relation to my identity and my constant battle to try and make sense of and understand _who I am. _At my worst I feel so ashamed that I completely withdraw from the world and hide myself away, because, deep down, I am absolutely terrified of being judged negatively (and for others to see how worthless and pathetic I am). Of course, I don't always feel this terrible; on a rational level I am painfully aware of the toxic core beliefs that skew my self perception and reality this way. However, rejecting the belief that I am fundamentally "bad" and "worthless" is a daily battle for me, and for the most part, it is a hidden conflict. It is easy for me to hide my pain from others and adopt a more "positive" persona; and at other times I may even cling to or over-exaggerate my "darkness" because it does offer a false sense of security in the sense that it momentarily makes me feel better about myself; the idea that the reason I feel like this is because _I am_ different from everyone, and that nobody could possibly ever understand that kind of pain or suffering). 

I think that I must fail at being a 6 because I have "fallen" so many times that there must be something wrong with my support system, lol. I'm not really sure that I would describe myself as a natural "skeptical thinker"; it's more of a trait that I desire; to be someone that others consider to be strong in critical thinking is someone that I aspire to be (this might have something to do with the influence that my partner has one me. His ability to remain calm, rational and objective in any situation is just so admirable, and sexy. He inspires me, I want to be more like him, he's my hero. :blushed.


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> I'm still finding it hard to pinpoint what my "support system" might be. Similarly, the way in which I would describe myself as feeling "unstable" is in relation to my identity and my constant battle to try and make sense of and understand _who I am. _At my worst I feel so ashamed that I completely withdraw from the world and hide myself away, because, deep down, I am absolutely terrified of being judged negatively (and for others to see how worthless and pathetic I am). Of course, I don't always feel this terrible; on a rational level I am painfully aware of the toxic core beliefs that skew my self perception and reality this way. However, rejecting the belief that I am fundamentally "bad" and "worthless" is a daily battle for me, and for the most part, it is a hidden conflict. It is easy for me to hide my pain from others and adopt a more "positive" persona; and at other times I may even cling to or over-exaggerate my "darkness" because it does offer a false sense of security in the sense that it momentarily makes me feel better about myself; the idea that the reason I feel like this is because _I am_ different from everyone, and that nobody could possibly ever understand that kind of pain or suffering).
> 
> I think that I must fail at being a 6 because I have "fallen" so many times that there must be something wrong with my support system, lol. I'm not really sure that I would describe myself as a natural "skeptical thinker"; it's more of a trait that I desire; to be someone that others consider to be strong in critical thinking is someone that I aspire to be (this might have something to do with the influence that my partner has one me. His ability to remain calm, rational and objective in any situation is just so admirable, and sexy. He inspires me, I want to be more like him, he's my hero. :blushed.


You don't sound like a 6. 6s are actually somewhat shameless. I can't imagine a 6 saying all that stuff about shame.


----------



## Kintsugi

nburns said:


> You don't sound like a 6. 6s are actually somewhat shameless. I can't imagine a 6 saying all that stuff about shame.


Eh, I've never heard 6 described as "shameless". Care to give some examples?

Don't 6s feel shame about anxiety? (I do. )


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> Eh, I've never heard 6 described as "shameless". Care to give some examples?
> 
> Don't 6s feel shame about anxiety? (I do. )


I've never heard 6 described as shameless, either, tbh, but you heard it here first. :happy:

It's hard to think of examples that would be meaningful to you... but, out of all the types on the triangle (3,6,9), 6s seem the least troubled by shame.


----------



## fawning

Animal said:


> @The Perfect Storm
> Sorry I have been super busy and haven't had a chance to quote you to demonstrate this, but I will soon -
> But I wanted to direct you to this post I just wrote - curious if you relate or how you'd feel about it..


This post really has me thinking! The number one thing I can't relate to with 6 is how many writers say they form their ideas from an outside network; take that away with introversion, mistrust and self-reflection and I'm less sure.

In that instance 1 doesn't fit any more than 6 for me, but both would be based on readings that go somewhat against type.

I like to think I find it quite easily to spot a 6, they're second most obvious to 7s for me - but I can't step outside myself enough to see how others would type me, and I feel uncomfortable showing my face here. IDK. Thank you for this post though! 'Bliss' is such a perfect song, I used to binge-listen to it when I was in love with my first and third, a 9 and a 7 respectively.


----------



## Santa Gloss

Hey the perfect storm,

I'm not a 6. I'm a SP/SX (your signature says you are too) and I'm a 7w6. According to a Beatrice Chestnut ennea book I was reading yesterday, SP/SX 7s vibe 6-ish, so sometimes I come across as one. 

There were a few things I related to in your post, some on a very personal level and some ennea related. I'll identify them as such in my response. 

1) C-PTSD -> Personal.



The Perfect Storm said:


> Regardless, it is fair to say that I am definitely cautious when getting to know and establish relationships with people (I am very socially withdrawn and hold most people at arms length). The reasons for this are complicated. As I have mentioned, I do have a history of interpersonal trauma that has undoubtedly affected me (I believe that I suffer from C-PTSD, an attachment-disorder that makes intimacy very difficult and extremely triggering for me).


As someone who has dealt with C-PTSD, I wanted to say hi and offer my sympathy. There was a website/resource that I used to reduce my day-to-day trigger issues significantly. If you want me to share it, let me know. PM or something. If not, no worries  I won't force feed you 


 2) Trauma and retreat: possibly ennea, def personal  ->



> The result of this is that I have spent large amounts of my life living in a state of self-imposed isolation from others, which has left me feeling somewhat disconnected and "alienated" from everyone else and the world around me (which is perhaps why I relate so strongly to some type 4 descriptions). I'm still finding it hard to pinpoint what my "support system" might be. Similarly, the way in which I would describe myself as feeling "unstable" is in relation to my identity and my constant battle to try and make sense of and understand who I am. At my worst I feel so ashamed that I completely withdraw from the world and hide myself away, because, deep down, I am absolutely terrified of being judged negatively (and for others to see how worthless and pathetic I am). Of course, I don't always feel this terrible; on a rational level I am painfully aware of the toxic core beliefs that skew my self perception and reality this way. However, rejecting the belief that I am fundamentally "bad" and "worthless" is a daily battle for me, and for the most part, it is a hidden conflict.


Trauma can do that to you. I went through that too, but for me it was a 7 thing (not saying it's the same for you). I self-isolated for a several years so that I could withdraw, reflect, research, regroup and figure out my issues + myself (integrating to 5). I learned a lot about myself in that process. I still do this sometimes, even when I'm dealing with non-trauma things. The only other option for me during such phases is to be involved with the world and criticize myself endlessly for being "less than" or "not good enough." That'd be me disintegrating towards 1 (I think?). (This is not something I admit to the world and even rarely to friends.). So anyway, I retreat  

For you, it might not be ennea related. 

Re: support system: Mine started out in books, websites and other resources that taught me how to think differently. And then, some friends who validated my past and accepted me anyway.



> It is easy for me to hide my pain from others and adopt a more "positive" persona; and at other times I may even  cling to or over-exaggerate my "darkness" because it does offer a false sense of security in the sense that it momentarily makes me feel better about myself; the idea that the reason I feel like this is because _I am_ different from everyone, and that  nobody could possibly ever understand that kind of pain or suffering).


Ennea -> Hiding pain under a cheerful, positive persona is a 7 thing I assume, because I do it too and so do the 7s I know IRL.

Personal -> Theoretically I knew others might feel this way, but damn. I wish I could give you a hug.

Re: cling to darkness / being different - I did this for a very long time. I mean, how could anyone not, right? If you survive what should probably have broken you, try to be normal, and... only see sunshine, cheer, beachballs and a whole lot of ignorance and "get over it," you start to wonder if anyone else could possibly be like you. And more importantly, can they understand your broken side and the chaos you came from? I think that makes people feel 4-ish. "No one gets me because I'm too different" can become a frequent thought.

I could go on, but I'll stop for now. 

So, anyway, I'm not saying you're a 7 or not a 7  I do relate to you a lot, but similar symptoms could make me assume we're alike enneagram-wise, even if we're not 

___

I copy pasted quotes back and forth, so if there are errors...


----------



## Gorgon

I'm considering sexual 3w4 for my core. 3w4 and 5w4 are competing for dominance. I'm starting to notice that sexual 3 fits me more than sexual 5, but not by much.


----------



## Kintsugi

@gritglossandrainbows

Thanks for the feedback/thoughts. I typed as core 7 for a long time before my recent decision to re-evaluate my type but I struggle to see myself as part of the "positive outlook" triad anymore. As you rightly point out, trauma (especially CPTSD) can really throw a spanner in the works when it comes to these things, it's very confusing!

I'll reply in more detail when I've had some time to think things over (and I've got some free time).

Thanks again.


----------



## Daeva

nburns said:


> You don't sound like a 6. 6s are actually somewhat shameless. I can't imagine a 6 saying all that stuff about shame.





nburns said:


> I've never heard 6 described as shameless, either, tbh, but you heard it here first. :happy:
> 
> It's hard to think of examples that would be meaningful to you... but, out of all the types on the triangle (3,6,9), 6s seem the least troubled by shame.


But... why? Why would they '_seem_' like the least troubled by shame, out of that triad?


----------



## Kisshoten

The Perfect Storm said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> Thanks for the reply (don't worry, I'm super busy too, atm!)
> 
> Can I ask you to clarify what you meant by "head" issues (I think I understand what you meant by "identity issues" but I was unsure about this part).
> 
> I admit, I am struggling to relate to what you wrote in the quote you posted about type 6. I don't consider "trust" to be a significant issue for me; actually, there have been times in my life where I have been too trusting (I could probably benefit from exercising more caution in certain areas). Regardless, it is fair to say that I am definitely cautious when getting to know and establish relationships with people (I am very socially withdrawn and hold most people at arms length). The reasons for this are complicated. As I have mentioned, I do have a history of interpersonal trauma that has undoubtedly affected me (I believe that I suffer from C-PTSD, an attachment-disorder that makes intimacy very difficult and extremely triggering for me). The result of this is that I have spent large amounts of my life living in a state of self-imposed isolation from others, which has left me feeling somewhat disconnected and "alienated" from everyone else and the world around me (which is perhaps why I relate so strongly to some type 4 descriptions).
> 
> I'm still finding it hard to pinpoint what my "support system" might be. Similarly, the way in which I would describe myself as feeling "unstable" is in relation to my identity and my constant battle to try and make sense of and understand _who I am. _At my worst I feel so ashamed that I completely withdraw from the world and hide myself away, because, deep down, I am absolutely terrified of being judged negatively (and for others to see how worthless and pathetic I am). Of course, I don't always feel this terrible; on a rational level I am painfully aware of the toxic core beliefs that skew my self perception and reality this way. However, rejecting the belief that I am fundamentally "bad" and "worthless" is a daily battle for me, and for the most part, it is a hidden conflict. It is easy for me to hide my pain from others and adopt a more "positive" persona; and at other times I may even cling to or over-exaggerate my "darkness" because it does offer a false sense of security in the sense that it momentarily makes me feel better about myself; the idea that the reason I feel like this is because _I am_ different from everyone, and that nobody could possibly ever understand that kind of pain or suffering).
> 
> I think that I must fail at being a 6 because I have "fallen" so many times that there must be something wrong with my support system, lol. I'm not really sure that I would describe myself as a natural "skeptical thinker"; it's more of a trait that I desire; to be someone that others consider to be strong in critical thinking is someone that I aspire to be (this might have something to do with the influence that my partner has one me. His ability to remain calm, rational and objective in any situation is just so admirable, and sexy. He inspires me, I want to be more like him, he's my hero. :blushed.


Not sure if this has been posed to you before, but, have yo considered core 4? Can you provide details, such as what lead you to consider or discard 4 for core? 

The way you've written most of this post (I haven't read any others) comes off very imagey. I find it hard to see you as a head type because it seems you struggle with how you see yourself and how you wish to be seen.


----------



## Morfy

Does anyone still think I'm mistyped? (Currently typing as an INFP 6w7 4w5 9w1 so sx)


----------



## Kisshoten

Sun Daeva said:


> But... why? Why would they '_seem_' like the least troubled by shame, out of that triad?


Head types are generally further removed from heart-type problems - shame, to keep it really general and simple - than body type problems such as - anger and guilt. 

Doesn't imply that 6s do not feel shame, but that shame is not really a distinguishing factor when it comes to determining motivation for 6s. 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6. 
@nburns correct me if this is not what you intended to convey.


----------



## nburns

Annatar said:


> @nburns correct me if this is not what you intended to convey.


No -- that's good. Thanks.


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> Head types are generally further removed from heart-type problems - shame, to keep it really general and simple - than body type problems such as - anger and guilt.
> 
> Doesn't imply that 6s do not feel shame, but that shame is not really a distinguishing factor when it comes to determining motivation for 6s. 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6.
> @_nburns_ correct me if this is not what you intended to convey.


& @nburns

How is shame closely tied to the core motivation of type 9?


----------



## Animal

3s are - at least consciously - out of touch with shame. In fact, image types can be 'ashamed of their shame' to such a degree that it manifests in ways that make up for the shame - such as pride and vanity. Even 4s, whose sin of 'envy' would suggest they are more aware of their shame, can have their shame manifest as elitism, competition, an inferiority/superiority complex.

Shame is much more simple and straight-forward for other types. Just as anger is more confusing for 9s and fear is more confusing for sixes.


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> 3s are - at least consciously - out of touch with shame. In fact, image types can be 'ashamed of their shame' to such a degree that it manifests in ways that make up for the shame - such as pride and vanity. Even 4s, whose sin of 'envy' would suggest they are more aware of their shame, can have their shame manifest as elitism, competition, an inferiority/superiority complex.
> 
> Shame is much more simple and straight-forward for other types. Just as anger is more confusing for 9s and fear is more confusing for sixes.


Yeah, my standard attitude towards shame is; I don"t have any, I'm better than shame.


----------



## Kisshoten

Sun Daeva said:


> & @_nburns_
> 
> How is shame closely tied to the core motivation of type 9?


Abandonment is often a theme in a 9s life. Acting shamefully, or anything that causes shame to the 9 is often considered by the 9 as a source of potential abandonment. 

How it ties into Self-forgetting.. well, I only have theories to pose at this point, for example: it is possible that a 9 would be tempted to take on another's interests as ones own in order to not act selfishly, and therefore, shamefully.


----------



## nburns

Sun Daeva said:


> & @nburns
> 
> How is shame closely tied to the core motivation of type 9?


A lot of 9s relate very strongly to 4.


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> Abandonment is often a theme in a 9s life. Acting shamefully, or anything that causes shame to the 9 is often considered by the 9 as a source of potential abandonment.


Doesn't that work for 6's as well?

_Lack of security is often a theme in a 6's life. Acting shamefully, or anything that causes shame to the 6 is often considered by the 6 as a source of potential lack of security._



> How it ties into Self-forgetting.. well, I only have theories to pose at this point, for example: it is possible that a 9 would be tempted to take on another's interests as ones own in order to not act selfishly, and therefore, shamefully.


I'm sure that will play it's part for type 9. However, I'm not sure how shame applies more to type 9 than type 6.



nburns said:


> A lot of 9s relate very strongly to 4.


Yet, a lot of 6's relate strongly to 4 also.


----------



## FakeLefty

Sun Daeva said:


> Doesn't that work for 6's as well?
> 
> _Lack of security is often a theme in a 6's life. Acting shamefully, or anything that causes shame to the 6 is often considered by the 6 as a source of potential lack of security._
> 
> 
> I'm sure that will play it's part for type 9. However, I'm not sure how shame applies more to type 9 than type 6.
> 
> 
> Yet, a lot of 6's relate strongly to 4 also.


Then that means that 469s are the ULTIMATE 4s!!!


----------



## Daeva

FakeLefty said:


> Then that means that 469s are the ULTIMATE 4s!!!


More 4 than 4!!!


----------



## FakeLefty

Sun Daeva said:


> More 4 than 4!!!


Super Saiyan 4!!!


----------



## Daeva

FakeLefty said:


> Super Saiyan 4!!!


4-ception...


----------



## FakeLefty

Sun Daeva said:


> 4-ception...


Yo dawg I heard you like 4s so I combined a 4 with types that relate to 4s so 4s can 4 even more!


----------



## Kisshoten

Sun Daeva said:


> Doesn't that work for 6's as well?
> 
> _Lack of security is often a theme in a 6's life. *Acting shamefully, or anything that causes shame to the 6 is often considered by the 6 as a source of potential lack of security.*_


First, lack of security is not the same as abandonment in all cases. Second, fear would dominate a 6 into either - 1) reacting in the interest of retaining support (approval of authority, or belief system, or what have you) or, 2) flout the authority in defiance (counterphobic reaction). Shame does not figure into this because fear predominates. 

How an action is perceived determines what emotion is felt in its aftermath. Example: only if _acting selfishly_ is considered _shameful _1 will an act in ones interest 2 lead to shame. 

If an act in ones interest is perceived as wrong, it is likely to lead to guilt. A lot of people avoid indulging in saying/doing what they want because they think it is wrong. Guilt is the thing they try to avoid. Guilt and shame are not the same. The difference lies in how guilt entails an option of redemption, whereas shame carries no such clause for rescue (for lack of a better term). Also guilt is tied to the act whereas shame is tied to the object.

Further reading, though it is not the best source out there. 

1 - as I have come across 9s describing it
2 - I'm calling it an act in ones interest and not a selfish act because 9s tend to consider most acts in their interest to be ultimately selfish, which results in the 9 going along with others' wishes all too easily. Essentially I'm saying, not all acts in ones interest are selfish. 



Wiktionary said:


> selfishˈsɛlfɪʃ/
> _adjective_
> 
> 
> 
> (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.





> I'm sure that will play it's part for type 9. However, I'm not sure how shame applies more to type 9 than type 6.


Shame is tied to image more than any other emotion. Confusion between 6s and image types owing to descriptions aside (with 4s due to feeling different/deviant, with 3s due to being achievement oriented, with 2s for feeling service-minded, helpful), I doubt many would relate to feeling self-conscious about how they are perceived. At least, less so than 9s. I chalk it up to people-pleasing and the tendency to maintain status-quo which are more characteristic (usually) of 9s than 6s. 

This is how I see it playing out. Arguments aside though, I have not seen 6s report acting a certain way out of shame, whereas I have come across 9s tell me that shame was a pretty common problem. If their own reports are plagued with the problem of guilt and shame being used interchangeably then...well, I might never get the opportunity to find out from them which emotion they truly meant. xD


----------



## Kintsugi

Annatar said:


> Not sure if this has been posed to you before, but, have yo considered core 4? Can you provide details, such as what lead you to consider or discard 4 for core?
> 
> The way you've written most of this post (I haven't read any others) comes off very imagey. I find it hard to see you as a head type because it seems you struggle with how you see yourself and how you wish to be seen.


Core 4 was suggested to me recently, I had not considered it up until that point (I've always typed either 6 or 7 and a brief period when I typed as 1).
*
Why I would consider 4:

*I identify strongly with "shame" (feeling there is something wrong with me and that I am different to most other people). I tend to hold people at arms length and am socially withdrawn because I anticipate that they will not understand me and that I will be rejected for this (note: I do have an attachment disorder). It took me a long time to accept it but I am more of a glass "half empty" than "full" kind of person. I'm never fully satisfied with myself or what I've achieved, there is always something missing (or something that someone else has/possesses) that I am envious about. I'm incredibly hard of myself, always beating myself up for not meeting my impossibly high standards (negative self image and low self esteem, check).

My main drive in life is to understand and figure out who I am and to always be true to myself. I'm obsessed with being "authentic" but I often get confused as to what this means (my self-image is heavily influenced by my emotional states). I have experimented with several different "identities" in my life. My wardrobe is eclectic, I dress daily according to how I feel (I do not have one "style", I cannot limit or put myself in a box like that).
*
Why I would discard 4:

*I do not see myself as an "artist" (stereotype, I know! >_>). I actually find aspects of the art world to be incredibly pretentious. I was once a drama and theatre studies student and become quickly disillusioned with it all when I was made to keep analysing and justifying every aspect of my performance. I would much rather express myself by "doing" as opposed to analysing (note: Se-dominant). 

I don't relate to the "shameless 4" descriptions (which maybe Sx-4?) I am very much in touch with my shame and am aware how much it distorts my perception (although this is a more recent development). I don't see myself as "uniquely talented", but I do consider myself to be more self-aware and emotionally in-tune than the average person (and pride myself on this).


Not sure if that's helpful - I'm afraid my understanding of 4 is not that great.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Perfect Storm said:


> Core 4 was suggested to me recently, I had not considered it up until that point (I've always typed either 6 or 7 and a brief period when I typed as 1).
> *
> Why I would consider 4:
> 
> *I identify strongly with "shame" (feeling there is something wrong with me and that I am different to most other people). I tend to hold people at arms length and am socially withdrawn because I anticipate that they will not understand me and that I will be rejected for this (note: I do have an attachment disorder). It took me a long time to accept it but I am more of a glass "half empty" than "full" kind of person. I'm never fully satisfied with myself or what I've achieved, there is always something missing (or something that someone else has/possesses) that I am envious about. I'm incredibly hard of myself, always beating myself up for not meeting my impossibly high standards (negative self image and low self esteem, check).
> 
> My main drive in life is to understand and figure out who I am and to always be true to myself. I'm obsessed with being "authentic" but I often get confused as to what this means (my self-image is heavily influenced by my emotional states). I have experimented with several different "identities" in my life. My wardrobe is eclectic, I dress daily according to how I feel (I do not have one "style", I cannot limit or put myself in a box like that).
> *
> Why I would discard 4:
> 
> *I do not see myself as an "artist" (stereotype, I know! >_>). I actually find aspects of the art world to be incredibly pretentious. I was once a drama and theatre studies student and become quickly disillusioned with it all when I was made to keep analysing and justifying every aspect of my performance. *I would much rather express myself by "doing" as opposed to analysing* (note: Se-dominant).
> 
> I don't relate to the "shameless 4" descriptions (which maybe Sx-4?) I am very much in touch with my shame and am aware how much it distorts my perception (although this is a more recent development). *I don't see myself as "uniquely talented", but I do consider myself to be more self-aware and emotionally in-tune than the average person (and pride myself on this).*
> 
> 
> Not sure if that's helpful - I'm afraid my understanding of 4 is not that great.


The two things in purple seem like they should have been in "why I would consider 4." Expression is key to art, all art. The second part, if I am not mistaken, is something Naranjo mentions clearly as a type 4 characteristic. I'd have to look it up to confirm.


----------



## Kintsugi

I should probably pay more attention to Naranjo but reading his stuff always hurts my head. >_>


----------



## Entropic

Annatar said:


> Head types are generally further removed from heart-type problems - shame, to keep it really general and simple - than body type problems such as - anger and guilt.
> 
> Doesn't imply that 6s do not feel shame, but that shame is not really a distinguishing factor when it comes to determining motivation for 6s. 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6.
> @nburns correct me if this is not what you intended to convey.


Thanks for pointing out that guilt is really an important feeling for the gut types. Dig deeper into any gut type and you will find them carrying a profound sense of guilt within them which may or may not be related as to why they feel angry.


@The Perfect Storm the way I experience guilt is similar to how you describe shame btw. I took some time for me to realize, but now it's an incredibly profound and usually constant feeling, even if it's in the background.


----------



## Kintsugi

Entropic said:


> @_The Perfect Storm_ the way I experience guilt is similar to how you describe shame btw. I took some time for me to realize, but now it's an incredibly profound and usually constant feeling, even if it's in the background.


I only had this "epiphany" recently. All of my issues fundamentally tie back to "shame". 

It was a hard pill to swallow and I was a mess for weeks.


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> Core 4 was suggested to me recently, I had not considered it up until that point (I've always typed either 6 or 7 and a brief period when I typed as 1).
> *
> Why I would consider 4:*


The case for you being a 4 seems pretty rock solid to me. More solid than probably 75% of the "4s" around here. lol

Wear your 4 label proudly... lots of people want to be 4s (even though it's silly, I know)!


----------



## Kintsugi

nburns said:


> The case for you being a 4 seems pretty rock solid to me. More solid than probably 75% of the "4s" around here. lol
> 
> Wear your 4 label proudly... lots of people want to be 4s (even though it's silly, I know)!


Idk, I'm still unsure. The trauma/CPTSD thing does complicate matters.

Also, you never typed me as a 9...It's a miracle?!  

Edit: I'm going back to "unknown type" *dramatic music*


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> Also, you never typed me as a 9...It's a miracle?!



* *


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> First, lack of security is not the same as abandonment in all cases. Second, fear would dominate a 6 into either - 1) reacting in the interest of retaining support (approval of authority, or belief system, or what have you) or, 2) flout the authority in defiance (counterphobic reaction). Shame does not figure into this because fear predominates.


Shame isn't the core emotion of 6, just as much as it isn't the core emotion of 9. Either of the types can, and more likely will, experience shame, as it's a human thing to experience. Shame can move a 6 just as much as it can move a 9, and there isn't a single reason I can think of that would suggest otherwise.



> How an action is perceived determines what emotion is felt in its aftermath. Example: only if _acting selfishly_ is considered _shameful _1 will an act in ones interest 2 lead to shame.
> 
> If an act in ones interest is perceived as wrong, it is likely to lead to guilt. A lot of people avoid indulging in saying/doing what they want because they think it is wrong. Guilt is the thing they try to avoid. Guilt and shame are not the same. The difference lies in how guilt entails an option of redemption, whereas shame carries no such clause for rescue (for lack of a better term). Also guilt is tied to the act whereas shame is tied to the object.
> 
> Further reading, though it is not the best source out there.
> 
> 1 - as I have come across 9s describing it
> 2 - I'm calling it an act in ones interest and not a selfish act because 9s tend to consider most acts in their interest to be ultimately selfish, which results in the 9 going along with others' wishes all too easily. Essentially I'm saying, not all acts in ones interest are selfish.



Just as, I'm sure, a 6 will have their own reasons to feel shame.




> Shame is tied to image more than any other emotion. Confusion between 6s and image types owing to descriptions aside (with 4s due to feeling different/deviant, with 3s due to being achievement oriented, with 2s for feeling service-minded, helpful), I doubt many would relate to feeling self-conscious about how they are perceived. At least, less so than 9s. I chalk it up to people-pleasing and the tendency to maintain status-quo which are more characteristic (usually) of 9s than 6s.


There's plenty of 6's who are very image conscious; they don't disintegrate to type 3 for nothing.
To use a short example; Sx 6 is called Strength and Beauty. In the more unhealthy ranges, when disintegrating more to type 3, the image of strength and beauty will be very emphasized.

Type 9's can have the well-known callousness about image that gut types tend to be known for. An undervaluing of image, and an undervaluing of shame related to that.

Is this universal for all 9's? No. And neither is 9's being more or less shame-ridden than 6's. It's a ridiculous notion, really.



> This is how I see it playing out. Arguments aside though, I have not seen 6s report acting a certain way out of shame, whereas I have come across 9s tell me that shame was a pretty common problem. If their own reports are plagued with the problem of guilt and shame being used interchangeably then...well, I might never get the opportunity to find out from them which emotion they truly meant. xD


Interesting, I have seen both types report dealing with shame in a major way in their lives.


----------



## Kisshoten

Sun Daeva said:


> Shame isn't the core emotion of 6, just as much as it isn't the core emotion of 9. Either of the types can, and more likely will, experience shame, as it's a human thing to experience. Shame can move a 6 just as much as it can move a 9, and there isn't a single reason I can think of that would suggest otherwise.


Already addressed this. 


Annatar said:


> Head types are generally further removed from heart-type problems - shame, to keep it really general and simple - than body type problems such as - anger and guilt.
> 
> *Doesn't imply that 6s do not feel shame*, but that shame is not really a distinguishing factor when it comes to determining motivation for 6s. 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6.





> Just as, I'm sure, a 6 will have their own reasons to feel shame.



Same as above. 



> There's plenty of 6's who are very image conscious; they don't disintegrate to type 3 for nothing.
> To use a short example; Sx 6 is called Strength and Beauty. In the more unhealthy ranges, when disintegrating more to type 3, the image of strength and beauty will be very emphasized.


I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. 
By your argument, typing should be nigh impossible because almost every type is associated with every center through integration or disintegration, save 7 and 2. 



> Type 9's can have the well-known callousness about image that gut types tend to be known for. An undervaluing of image, and an undervaluing of shame related to that.


And your point is? I mean, you're stating "9s can also be like this" okay. But where are you leading that to? 

If you want to talk about what types tend to exhibit or not, almost all types exhibit every emotion. It is not human to not exhibit particular emotions, at least under exceptional circumstances. And this leads me to the very first thing I said. Tendency to do something does not mean all else is excluded. 



> Is this universal for all 9's? No. And neither is 9's being more or less shame-ridden than 6's. It's a ridiculous notion, really.


And this is your opinion because I see no argument here. You're stating and restating that you disagree. 



> Interesting, I have seen both types report dealing with shame in a major way in their lives.


The only bit in this post that can be considered somewhat of a substantiation for why you disagree. And to that I say, "okay."


----------



## Kintsugi

Exciting conversations! Yay! :kitteh:


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> Already addressed this.
> 
> 
> Same as above.
> 
> 
> I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion.
> By your argument, typing should be nigh impossible because almost every type is associated with every center through integration or disintegration, save 7 and 2.
> 
> 
> And your point is? I mean, you're stating "9s can also be like this" okay. But where are you leading that to?
> 
> If you want to talk about what types tend to exhibit or not, almost all types exhibit every emotion. It is not human to not exhibit particular emotions, at least under exceptional circumstances. And this leads me to the very first thing I said. Tendency to do something does not mean all else is excluded.
> 
> 
> And this is your opinion because I see no argument here. You're stating and restating that you disagree.
> 
> 
> The only bit in this post that can be considered somewhat of a substantiation for why you disagree. And to that I say, "okay."


What kind of post is this? You dare talk about _substantiation_?? The irony, oh lord.

...



Annatar said:


> 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6.


Nothing about the core motivation of type 9 points towards shame any more than the core motivation of type 6 does.

You claim it does, and you 'explained' this by telling me that the core issue of abandonment (for type 9) leads to shame. Do you honestly think that this makes your case?

*Nowhere *did you explain why this doesn't apply for 6 either.
If you want anyone to take your cute claim seriously, you'll have to do better and actually explain why the core of type 9 has a stronger connection to shame *than the core of type 6*.

Does my point come across better now?


----------



## Animal

Annatar said:


> I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion.
> By your argument, typing should be nigh impossible because almost every type is associated with every center through integration or disintegration, save 7 and 2.


Every human feels anger, shame and fear. What makes a type relevant is how these _very human emotions_ are handled. If we are typing people because they feel anger, shame or fear, then we are allowing our ideas of some system to override the obvious truth that these emotions are common to_ every human ever. _And animals as well.


----------



## Kintsugi

Totally biased but when it comes to "systems", NT's get my vote (even if they are strange Ti-users). I just like the detached and "logical" approach to this stuff compared to the "THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE" kinda thing. Does that make me a head-type (serious question)

Also, I have a slight crush on @Annatar because.....yeah. Hehe.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> Totally biased but when it comes to "systems", NT's get my vote (even if they are strange Ti-users). I just like the detached and "logical" approach to this stuff compared to the "THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE" kinda thing. Does that make me a head-type (serious question)
> 
> Also, I have a slight crush on @_Annatar_ because.....yeah. Hehe.


That confirms that you're ESFP, so the input of an NT will be easier to get for you xD nothing to do with enneagram to be honest. Well, NiTe is easier to process than Ti, but still you can get the general idea of Annatar's posts. Basically something needs to stand out in order to be able to figure out core type.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Perfect Storm said:


> Totally biased but when it comes to "systems", NT's get my vote (even if they are strange Ti-users). I just like the detached and "logical" approach to this stuff compared to the "THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE" kinda thing. Does that make me a head-type (serious question)
> 
> Also, I have a slight crush on @_Annatar_ because.....yeah. Hehe.


I'm flattered. xD
thank you


----------



## Kintsugi

Mordred Phantom said:


> That confirms that you're ESFP, so the input of an NT will be easier to get for you xD nothing to do with enneagram to be honest. Well, NiTe is easier to process than Ti, but still you can get the general idea of Annatar's posts. Basically something needs to stand out in order to be able to figure out core type.


From a Socionics perspective, this makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Kintsugi

Annatar said:


> I'm flattered. xD
> thank you


I would love to sit under the candlelight and talk with you for hours. Fucking would be an extra, but I'm not that bothered. 

Sapiosexual right here. :blushed:


The way you mow down the inconsistencies and fallacies is a turn on.

Fuck. I'm due to get married in a month, what am I saying?! (Btw, my fiancée is sitting next to me laughing at the whole ordeal. That confidence is incredibly sexy:blushed.


----------



## Kintsugi

What the fuck is wrong with me?! LOL.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> What the fuck is wrong with me?! LOL.


NT game too strong XD you just can't resist it no matter if it comes from Alpha or Gamma NT. Anything else can't be compared to see a NT wrecking BS haha


----------



## Kintsugi

Mordred Phantom said:


> NT game too strong XD you just can't resist it no matter if it comes from Alpha or Gamma NT. Anything else can't be compared to see a NT wrecking BS haha


You might have a point. :kitteh:


----------



## Kisshoten

Sun Daeva said:


> What kind of post is this? You dare talk about _substantiation_?? The irony, oh lord.


Dramatic overtures do not excite me, sorry. 



> Nothing about the core motivation of type 9 points towards shame any more than the core motivation of type 6 does.
> 
> You claim it does, and you 'explained' this by telling me that the core issue of abandonment (for type 9) leads to shame. Do you honestly think that this makes your case?


I do. 



> *Nowhere *did you explain why this doesn't apply for 6 either.
> If you want anyone to take your cute claim seriously, you'll have to do better and actually explain why the core of type 9 has a stronger connection to shame *than the core of type 6*.
> 
> Does my point come across better now?


Oh my, the condescension is strong with this one. Tell you what, lose the attitude and I'll continue this conversation with you IF that is what you truly wish for (although I doubt that is the case).


----------



## Kisshoten

The Perfect Storm said:


> I would love to sit under the candlelight and talk with you for hours. Fucking would be an extra, but I'm not that bothered.
> 
> Sapiosexual right here. :blushed:
> 
> 
> The way you mow down the inconsistencies and fallacies is a turn on.
> 
> Fuck. I'm due to get married in a month, what am I saying?! (Btw, my fiancée is sitting next to me laughing at the whole ordeal. That confidence is incredibly sexy:blushed.


I am incredibly flattered. Almost humbled at how you've worded this post. 

:kitteh:


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> Dramatic overtures do not excite me, sorry.


Did I give you the impression that I wanted to excite you?



> I do.


That's quite telling.



> Oh my, the condescension is strong with this one. Tell you what, lose the attitude and I'll continue this conversation with you IF that is what you truly wish for (although I doubt that is the case).


Lol @ condescension. I only responded in kind.

If you can't demonstrate why the core of type 6 is not as shame-inducing as the core of type 9, no one should take your claim seriously.


----------



## Kintsugi

Annatar said:


> I am incredibly flattered. Almost humbled at how you've worded this post.
> 
> :kitteh:


I'm your Lady Macbeth.

I idealise you. The way your mind works is beautiful.


----------



## Kisshoten

Sun Daeva said:


> Did I give you the impression that I wanted to excite you?


To be honest, the impression you gave me was that of someone taking a discussion personally and veering off on tangents because the other would not agree with you. 



> Lol @ condescension. I only responded in kind.
> 
> If you can't demonstrate why the core of type 6 is not as shame-inducing as the core of type 9, no one should take your claim seriously.


I haven't spoken to you condescendingly. 

As for what someone, _anyone_, other than you should think of my claim: we're all capable of making up our own minds.


----------



## Animal

Annatar said:


> Tell you what, lose the attitude and I'll continue this conversation with you IF that is what you truly wish for (although I doubt that is the case).


Wouldn't you want to substantiate your claim just for the sake of clarifying your point? Or is that a reward that you give to people if you happen to like their attitude? 

Personally, if I have made an empty case and someone is asking me to clarify my point, I'd clarify my point because I desire to be a person of integrity and honor who stands behind her words and claims. Someone else's "attitude" has nothing to do with that - and I wouldn't blame someone for becoming frustrated with me if I made empty claims that I repeatedly did not justify, despite being asked several times. I'm not sure what kind of attitude you would expect to receive after making a claim that you refused to justify despite multiple requests.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Perfect Storm said:


> I'm your Lady Macbeth.
> 
> I idealise you. The way your mind works is beautiful.


Lol... Don't flatter me any more.. I might [email protected]! :blushed:


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> To be honest, the impression you gave me was that of someone taking a discussion personally and veering off on tangents because the other would not agree with you.
> 
> 
> I haven't spoken to you condescendingly.
> 
> As for what someone, _anyone_, other than you should think of my claim: we're all capable of making up our own minds.


So.. you're not backing up your claim?


----------



## Kintsugi

@Animal

I want to hear you.

For years you have been my "4". And now, I'm in this position.

I hope you can help me find the light.


----------



## Kintsugi

Annatar said:


> Lol... Don't flatter me any more.. I might [email protected]! :blushed:


Your explosion is beautiful.

7 is life, and life is a fucking explosion.

I love 7s.


----------



## Animal

The Perfect Storm said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> I want to hear you.
> 
> For years you have been my "4". And now, I'm in this position.
> 
> I hope you can help me find the light.


I hope so too <3

I have been percolating on your type for a while. Please forgive me - it is not particularly easy for me to get my percolations into words.. when the words come, they come, like BAM. I am waiting for that moment - it will happen soon! I've been busy and I'm doing some photoshoots tomorrow, but it's on my mind and I am planning to try to clarify my thoughts as soon as I can.  I see you are being very open and realistic about your type and I really respect that. I'll try to give you a post worthy of the honesty of your search. Asap. :kitteh:


----------



## nburns

The Perfect Storm said:


> Your explosion is beautiful.
> 
> 7 is life, and life is a fucking explosion.
> 
> I love 7s.


Are you sure that's love? Or is it envy?


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> Wouldn't you want to substantiate your claim just for the sake of clarifying your point? Or is that a reward that you give to people if you happen to like their attitude?
> 
> Personally, if I have made an empty case and someone is asking me to clarify my point, I'd clarify my point because I desire to be a person of integrity and honor who stands behind her words and claims. Someone else's "attitude" has nothing to do with that - and I wouldn't blame someone for becoming frustrated with me if I made empty claims that I repeatedly did not justify, despite being asked several times. I'm not sure what kind of attitude you would expect to receive after making a claim that you refused to justify despite multiple requests.


First and foremost, I don't see why you have inserted yourself into this conversation which was between Sun and I. 

Second, I don't appreciate being talked down to. Don't care if they like their attitude or not. If they wish to have a conversation with me they'd better talk to me with some basic decency. If they can't manage that then I am not going to bother talking. 

That I am still responding to you after this is testimony to my integrity. I can't help it if you find it disagreeable, just like I find Sun's attitude towards my posts disagreeable. I have posted three times, justifying why I think 9s are more likely to act out of shame than 6. That you find my justifications unsatisfactory is not my problem. 

I suggest you end this discussion if it is that frustrating. 



Sun Daeva said:


> So.. you're not backing up your claim?


I have. Multiple times... and it is clear I am not getting through to you. Meh.. not my problem.


----------



## Kintsugi

nburns said:


> Are you sure that's love? Or is it envy?


Everything is ENVY.

I see the perfection in people, and it's so hard to identify when I compare it to my self-concept.

What the fuck is "love"

I open it up to the audience.

I AM. that's it.

people can go fuck themselves.


----------



## Animal

Annatar said:


> First and foremost, I don't see why you have inserted yourself into this conversation which was between Sun and I.


I entered a conversation on a public forum that was between several people. It's not like you and @Sun Daeva were having a private chat and I burst in. This is a public forum and anyone can post what they think. 



> That I am still responding to you after this is testimony to my integrity. I can't help it if you find it disagreeable,




I only spoke about my own integrity - not about yours.


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> I entered a conversation on a public forum that was between several people. It's not like you and @_Sun Daeva_ were having a private chat and I burst in. This is a public forum and anyone can post what they think.


Sure..



> I only spoke about my own integrity - not about yours.[/COLOR]


So you're telling me that the purpose of you telling us how you would behave if it was you instead of me was not an indirect way of calling me dishonorable, etc.? Okay. So what was the purpose of telling us what you would or would not do in a situation like this?


----------



## Kisshoten

The Perfect Storm said:


> Your explosion is beautiful.
> 
> 7 is life, and life is a fucking explosion.
> 
> I love 7s.












There you go. 

The pieces of my soul erupt in bright colors at how happy you've made me feel. But, forgive me, for my colors shall fade away shortly. Take heart, however, my dear, for my happiness shall last forever. 

:happy:


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> First and foremost, I don't see why you have inserted yourself into this conversation which was between Sun and I.


... Really? You inserted yourself by responding to a question I posed to @_nburns_ . 



Annatar said:


> I have. Multiple times... and it is clear I am not getting through to you. Meh.. not my problem.


It isn't your problem that your reasoning for your claim is too weak. That's interesting..

Alright, let me walk you through it...



Annatar said:


> Head types are generally further removed from heart-type problems - shame, to keep it really general and simple - than body type problems such as - anger and guilt.


Needs backing.



> Doesn't imply that 6s do not feel shame, but that shame is not really a distinguishing factor when it comes to determining motivation for 6s. 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6.


Ties in with the previous statement; needs backing.



Annatar said:


> First, lack of security is not the same as abandonment in all cases.


Of course it isn't. But they are linked to the core issues of types 6 and 9.



> Second, fear would dominate a 6 into either - 1) reacting in the interest of retaining support (approval of authority, or belief system, or what have you) or, 2) flout the authority in defiance (counterphobic reaction). Shame does not figure into this because fear predominates.


Why would shame not figure into this? Just because fear is the driving emotion behind type 6, doesn't make them any less shame-sensitive. What's your logic in that?



> Shame is tied to image more than any other emotion. Confusion between 6s and image types owing to descriptions aside (with 4s due to feeling different/deviant, with 3s due to being achievement oriented, with 2s for feeling service-minded, helpful),


I think many 6's get more from the descriptions than that, but sure...



> I doubt many would relate to feeling self-conscious about how they are perceived. At least, less so than 9s. I chalk it up to people-pleasing and the tendency to maintain status-quo which are more characteristic (usually) of 9s than 6s.


Clearly, your *personal experience* doesn't match mine here.
So, what do you think the solution is here? I'll refer back to earlier in this post; needs backing.




> This is how I see it playing out. Arguments aside though, I have not seen 6s report acting a certain way out of shame, whereas I have come across 9s tell me that shame was a pretty common problem. If their own reports are plagued with the problem of guilt and shame being used interchangeably then...well, I might never get the opportunity to find out from them which emotion they truly meant. xD


Arguments aside, I *have* seen plenty 6's report acting a certain way out of shame.
Anyway..


Overall conclusion on your claim; needs backing​.


----------



## Animal

Annatar said:


> Sure..
> 
> 
> So you're telling me that the purpose of you telling us how you would behave if it was you instead of me was not an indirect way of calling me dishonorable, etc.? Okay. So what was the purpose of telling us what you would or would not do in a situation like this?


I am not, generally, an indirect person. I say what I mean. What you read into it is your own business.
So, no, it was not an indirect anything. I was just explaining how I would have responded to that situation because the way you responded to it made no sense to me. You were asked to substantiate a claim and then instead of doing so you made a bargain: you would substantiate your claim IF that person behaved in a manner that you approve of. I found that interesting because to me, my own claims and honor are not related to how other people talk to me. So I was wondering why it was different for you. Not "implying" anything.


----------



## Kintsugi

@Annatar

You killing it.

I can only post this;


----------



## Kintsugi

@Annatar

listen to this

this is me


----------



## Kintsugi

What's this song?


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> I am not, generally, an indirect person. I say what I mean. What you read into it is your own business.
> So, no, it was not an indirect anything. I was just explaining how I would have responded to that situation because the way you responded to it made no sense to me.


You're saying you won't explain *why* you elaborated in such detail the nature of your reaction had it been you instead of me in this discussion. Okay. 

And here is you stating more stuff of a similar nature - 


> You were asked to substantiate a claim and then instead of doing so you made a bargain: you would substantiate your claim IF that person behaved in a manner that you approve of.* I found that interesting because to me, my own claims and honor are not related to how other people talk to me. So I was wondering why it was different for you. Not "implying" anything.*


What you would do and what makes sense to you... which is irrelevant to me because you're not implying anything. Okay.


----------



## Entropic

@Sun Daeva You are again twisting arguments to suit your purpose. @Annatar never claimed that shame is a particular emotion for 6s or 9s or anyone type, really, so idk wtf you are huffing over. 

The real irony here is that you are in fact agreeing with what she wrote, but you think you aren't. When discussing types, we're always discussing tendencies, what makes a thing a thing as opposed to something else. The truth is that image types are more likely to feel and experience shame, especially at their very core, than other types from the other centers will. I recognize gut types because they have a profound sense of guilt within them other types do not, just like head types have within them a profound sense of fear and image types shame. Does this mean a gut type can never feel shame? Of course not. They can. Will it be an integral aspect of their type? No, it won't, because it is not shame that defines a gut type, but it is anger and guilt, just as anxiety and fear do for head types and shame and sorrow do for image types. 

That all humans also then can experience the entire breadth of human emotion, and subsequently, have all types within them if you're that kind of person, is irrelevant to this claim. If we are taking that argument to its solipsist extreme, then type doesn't exist because we are all also irrevocably human and as such, cannot be defined within what a type is. We are much too complex and shape-shifting in nature in order to fit such measly categories. That also defies the logic of typology and the enneagram, that does explicitly claim that yes, humans tend to fall within a range of aspects that makes them a certain type over other types. Notice the words "tend to". Not always, but tend to. 

If you ignore the probabilistic nature of type logic, you deny the existence and meaningfulness of typology. That is clearly not so, you do believe people can be categorized. Therefore it would also be the most sensible of you to take the logical position to realize that humans also do, by and large based on probability, manifest certain degrees of of a thing more so than they do other degrees. A person can for example be more gentle than they can be forthright, or be more logical than they are emotional. This does not, again, mean that an emotional person can never be logical, but at the end of the day, the probability that they will fall back on their emotional experiences in order to rationalize the world is greater than they will impersonal and detached logical reasoning. Therefore we call these people feelers over thinkers. It's the same thing. So again, probability. 

Nitpicking over that doesn't do you any good; then you are just purposefully misdirecting the entire conversation because you want to be disagreeable when you are in fact, agreeing.


----------



## Kisshoten

Sun Daeva said:


> ... Really? You inserted yourself by responding to a question I posed to @_nburns_ .


I made it a point to include the person it was actually directed at, thereby coming to a consensus that the other party has no objections about my sudden appearance and participation. I also asked Nburns if I had misinterpreted his words to which he replied that I had understood perfectly fine. After that point, he had stopped responding and the conversation was between you and I. 

Such is not the case between Maybe, you and I.



> It isn't your problem that your reasoning for your claim is too weak. That's interesting..
> 
> Alright, let me walk you through it...
> Originally Posted by *Annatar*
> _Head types are generally further removed from heart-type problems - shame, to keep it really general and simple - than body type problems such as - anger and guilt._
> 
> Needs backing.
> 
> _Doesn't imply that 6s do not feel shame, but that shame is not really a distinguishing factor when it comes to determining motivation for 6s. 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6._
> Ties in with the previous statement; needs backing.
> 
> _First, lack of security is not the same as abandonment in all cases._
> Of course it isn't. But they are linked to the core issues of types 6 and 9.
> 
> _Second, fear would dominate a 6 into either - 1) reacting in the interest of retaining support (approval of authority, or belief system, or what have you) or, 2) flout the authority in defiance (counterphobic reaction). Shame does not figure into this because fear predominates._
> Why would shame not figure into this? Just because fear is the driving emotion behind type 6, doesn't make them any less shame-sensitive. What's your logic in that?
> 
> _I doubt many would relate to feeling self-conscious about how they are perceived. At least, less so than 9s. I chalk it up to people-pleasing and the tendency to maintain status-quo which are more characteristic (usually) of 9s than 6s._
> I think many 6's get more from the descriptions than that, but sure...
> 
> 
> Clearly, your *personal experience* doesn't match mine here.
> So, what do you think the solution is here? I'll refer back to earlier in this post; needs backing.
> 
> _This is how I see it playing out. Arguments aside though, I have not seen 6s report acting a certain way out of shame, whereas I have come across 9s tell me that shame was a pretty common problem. If their own reports are plagued with the problem of guilt and shame being used interchangeably then...well, I might never get the opportunity to find out from them which emotion they truly meant. xD_
> Arguments aside, I *have* seen plenty 6's report acting a certain way out of shame.
> Anyway..
> 
> 
> Overall conclusion on your claim; needs backing​.


Calling a reason weak without citing reasons "why" is no good. You never gave me enough reasons explaining why my reasons were weak to begin with. 

I would say the same regarding the bulk of this post where you ask for backing. I thought that the lack of credibility due to insufficient sources (as that is what I perceived the “backing” you seemed inclined to accept consisted of) was reason enough to disagree with me. But if the problem were that simple I didn't understand why the argument devolved into you patronizing me with melodramatic statements. 

But then further down in your post, you've shown me why you have a problem with what I said much better than I could have guessed.



> Clearly, your *personal experience* doesn't match mine here.
> So, what do you think the solution is here? I'll refer back to earlier in this post; needs backing.


You disagree with me because my experiences lead me to think differently than you. 

I've made my point and this the last post in which I will address this entire episode.


----------



## Kisshoten

The Perfect Storm said:


> @_Annatar_
> 
> You killing it.
> 
> I can only post this;


I really liked this, although I couldn't find the exact lyrics to this. Some of it I could follow, some of it was too fast for me. But it was good. 

Can you link me? I'd like to listen with lyrics.


----------



## Animal

Annatar said:


> You're saying you won't explain *why* you elaborated in such detail the nature of your reaction had it been you instead of me in this discussion. Okay.
> 
> And here is you stating more stuff of a similar nature -
> 
> What you would do and what makes sense to you... which is irrelevant to me because you're not implying anything. Okay.


If we're arguing about each other's arguments, and not about enneagram, I'm not really interested. If you're not going to clarify your point I don't have much else to ask you about. So I'll just wait until I have time to make my case for @_The Perfect Storm_'s type. It takes me a long time to make a case because I can see the pattern in her over the last few years, but it's hard to put in words exactly what I'm seeing while also clarifying essential points about enneagram which lead me to type her as such- so it will require a large bulk of time which I don't have much of right now. I'll be back, but not to argue about the manner in which others are arguing.

By the way, I love your new avatar.


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> By the way, I love your new avatar.


Thanks. xD
I don't ever want to change it.. except unless I put a picture of Yasuo and change my name to Yasuo as well. :blushed: (i'm seriously considering it :|)


----------



## Animal

Annatar said:


> Thanks. xD
> I don't ever want to change it.. except unless I put a picture of Yasuo and change my name to Yasuo as well. :blushed: (i'm seriously considering it :|)


Haha. I have the same problem.. I want to keep my "animal" avatar forever but I couldn't resist putting up this picture from my wedding 

I will go back to this soon enough, though-


----------



## Kisshoten

Animal said:


> Haha. I have the same problem.. I want to keep my "animal" avatar forever but I couldn't resist putting up this picture from my wedding
> 
> I will go back to this soon enough, though-


Oh, congratulations! I didn't know you got married. Good to hear.

@The Perfect Storm

I wanted to share a song with you too. It doesn't really reflect much about me personally, but I do relate to some parts of the lyrics. Give it a try. It might not be your thing doe.


----------



## Animal

Annatar said:


> Oh, congratulations! I didn't know you got married. Good to hear.


 @Sun Daeva and I got married in a volcano, as pictured. :ninja:
No really... I wrote a blog about it.

How I Recognized my Soulmate - Xenning Around


----------



## 6007

I don't know how this thread works. But if people would consider a different typing for me other than 584 istp I'm interested in considering in order to further my understanding of the systems. 

suddenly aware most people don't even know me on this forum because I tend to use it to talk to myself rather than interact with others but... Who knows maybe I'll get lucky.


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> I made it a point to include the person it was actually directed at, thereby coming to a consensus that the other party has no objections about my sudden appearance and participation. I also asked Nburns if I had misinterpreted his words to which he replied that I had understood perfectly fine. After that point, he had stopped responding and the conversation was between you and I.
> 
> Such is not the case between Maybe, you and I.


She inserted herself into this convo, as you did before. You complaining that she didn't follow the same 'protocol' that you did -in a public forum- is ridiculous.



> Calling a reason weak without citing reasons "why" is no good. You never gave me enough reasons explaining why my reasons were weak to begin with.


I call your reason weak because you fail to explain the "why" in the first place:



Annatar said:


> First, lack of security is not the same as abandonment in all cases. Second, fear would dominate a 6 into either - 1) reacting in the interest of retaining support (approval of authority, or belief system, or what have you) or, 2) flout the authority in defiance (counterphobic reaction). Shame does not figure into this because fear predominates.


You say fear propels the 6 into either of two actions, and then conclude with "Shame does not figure into this because fear predominates."

You're failing to explain why. Because fear predominates? That means it overrules every other emotion? Or what are you saying?



> I would say the same regarding the bulk of this post where you ask for backing. I thought that the lack of credibility due to insufficient sources (as that is what I perceived the “backing” you seemed inclined to accept consisted of) was reason enough to disagree with me. But if the problem were that simple I didn't understand why the argument devolved into you patronizing me with melodramatic statements.


I disagreed with your explanation, to which you answered my post wasn't substantial. Which is ironic, because in your reply, you gave me a pile of shit with no 'substance' in there.

But do go on about why my tone keeps you from explaining yourself.



> But then further down in your post, you've shown me why you have a problem with what I said much better than I could have guessed.
> 
> 
> You disagree with me because my experiences lead me to think differently than you.


I disagree with you because you fail to show actual -substance- to your claim.



> I've made my point and this the last post in which I will address this entire episode.


Lol, of course you did.. 





Entropic said:


> @_Sun Daeva_ You are again twisting arguments to suit your purpose.


That's rich coming from you.



> @_Annatar_ never claimed that shame is a particular emotion for 6s or 9s or anyone type, really, so idk wtf you are huffing over.


Reading comprehension, you should try it.

This is the claim;


Annatar said:


> 3s and 9s display more shame and it is closely tied to their core motivation unlike in the case of 6.


Maybe you should reread our conversation. Or maybe just glasses?



> The real irony here is that you are in fact agreeing with what she wrote, but you think you aren't. When discussing types, we're always discussing tendencies, what makes a thing a thing as opposed to something else. The truth is that image types are more likely to feel and experience shame, especially at their very core, than other types from the other centers will. I recognize gut types because they have a profound sense of guilt within them other types do not, just like head types have within them a profound sense of fear and image types shame. Does this mean a gut type can never feel shame? Of course not. They can. Will it be an integral aspect of their type? No, it won't, because it is not shame that defines a gut type, but it is anger and guilt, just as anxiety and fear do for head types and shame and sorrow do for image types.


And here you just disagreed with @Annatar . But you'd know that, if you had actually read the convo in the first place.



> That all humans also then can experience the entire breadth of human emotion, and subsequently, have all types within them if you're that kind of person, is irrelevant to this claim. If we are taking that argument to its solipsist extreme, then type doesn't exist because we are all also irrevocably human and as such, cannot be defined within what a type is. We are much too complex and shape-shifting in nature in order to fit such measly categories. That also defies the logic of typology and the enneagram, that does explicitly claim that yes, humans tend to fall within a range of aspects that makes them a certain type over other types. Notice the words "tend to". Not always, but tend to.
> 
> If you ignore the probabilistic nature of type logic, you deny the existence and meaningfulness of typology. That is clearly not so, you do believe people can be categorized. Therefore it would also be the most sensible of you to take the logical position to realize that humans also do, by and large based on probability, manifest certain degrees of of a thing more so than they do other degrees. A person can for example be more gentle than they can be forthright, or be more logical than they are emotional. This does not, again, mean that an emotional person can never be logical, but at the end of the day, the probability that they will fall back on their emotional experiences in order to rationalize the world is greater than they will impersonal and detached logical reasoning. Therefore we call these people feelers over thinkers. It's the same thing. So again, probability.
> 
> Nitpicking over that doesn't do you any good; then you are just purposefully misdirecting the entire conversation because you want to be disagreeable when you are in fact, agreeing.


And whoosh, the point of the entire conversation went way above your head.
Do try to keep up next time.


----------



## nburns

ripley said:


> I don't know how this thread works. But if people would consider a different typing for me other than 584 istp I'm interested in considering in order to further my understanding of the systems.
> 
> suddenly aware most people don't even know me on this forum because I tend to use it to talk to myself rather than interact with others but... Who knows maybe I'll get lucky.


Did you ever post a questionnaire? Or anything else helpful?


----------



## Kisshoten

Okay.. last time. 



Sun Daeva said:


> She inserted herself into this convo, as you did before. You complaining that she didn't follow the same 'protocol' that you did -in a public forum- is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> I call your reason weak because you fail to explain the "why" in the first place:
> 
> 
> *You say fear propels the 6 into either of two actions, and then conclude with "Shame does not figure into this because fear predominates."
> 
> You're failing to explain why. Because fear predominates? That means it overrules every other emotion? Or what are you saying*?


At this point you might as well just ask why type 6 is considered a fear type at all. 



> I disagreed with your explanation, to which you answered my post wasn't substantial. Which is ironic, because in your reply, you gave me a pile of shit with no 'substance' in there.
> 
> But do go on about why my tone keeps you from explaining yourself.
> 
> 
> I disagree with you because you fail to show actual -substance- to your claim.
> 
> 
> Lol, of course you did..


This is just..lol. 

Yeah, done for real this time.


----------



## Daeva

Annatar said:


> Okay.. last time.
> 
> 
> At this point you might as well just ask why type 6 is considered a fear type at all.


I know right? That's exactly my point. Why even bother calling type 9 an anger type, right? Might as well call it a shame type according to your logic.




> This is just..lol.
> 
> Yeah, done for real this time.


You keep on saying that...


----------



## 6007

nburns said:


> Did you ever post a questionnaire? Or anything else helpful?


Indeed I did! You hath reminded me, thank you. 
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-whats-my-type-come-tell-me-what-you-see.html


----------



## Shadow Tag

@ripley

This isn't just because you often post in that thread, but based on the content: You're one of the most sx-first people I've seen so I'd focus on which type you are through the lens of being sx-first and that would narrow it down. But you probably knew that already haha.

Also, from what I've seen, I don't see why you'd be anything else but 5 or 8.


----------



## 6007

tenefix said:


> @_ripley_
> 
> This isn't just because you often post in that thread, but based on the content: You're one of the most sx-first people I've seen so I'd focus on which type you are through the lens of being sx-first and that would narrow it down. But you probably knew that already haha.
> 
> Also, from what I've seen, I don't see why you'd be anything else but 5 or 8.


Cool thank you for your feedback. I'm too close to the subject so I think outside ideas have value.

i didn't know I was so obviously a SX subtype. Lol. 
I mean... I've been called a succubus before but I had hoped maybe I wasn't... Lol


----------



## 6007

Animal said:


> I relate to all of that. I tend to veer toward the "superior" end of the superior/inferior spectrum myself  and I notice you doing that in your SX confessions as well.
> 
> 
> Anyone could be sexually assaulted, but.. yeah.. 8 doesn't feel right. Also dammit I want to kill that person.
> 
> 
> I'd be curious what your problems with it are. I don't resonate with the "inferior" and self-loathing parts of the descriptions either. Sx 4s are elitist superior competitive powerhouses who are very enamored with their own anger, but have trouble with some of the softer emotions. That's why a lot of them mistype at 8.
> 
> Having an inferior/superior spectrum is already about envy though, because it's about comparison. What Sx4s do is often to become 'shameless' and make themselves unaware of their envy by comparing themselves favorably to others. I've seen you write things like "he's not going to do better than me" and how awesome you are and how much better than these typical bitches, and I've seen you write competitive things about your ex husband's new woman ... exactly the kind of shit I would think .. I often have a love/hate relationship , hate and aggression is very tied into romance for me.. I tend to see my partners as being much "softer" than me and less able to handle real shit, running away from conflicts etc (with the exception of my husband who is a 4 also and thus has no fear of delving into conflicts and tearing each other's souls apart until the shit is solved)
> 
> 
> 
> What is it that you don't relate to? I can outline some stuff about 4 or try to clear stuff up if it woudl help. I'm not trying to push the typing, but I think it might be a matter of going through the same thing I did, which was to say that I don't readily relate to shame or feeling inferior etc... althoguh once I really dug in, all of that is there, all of my dichotomies are around this. And underneath it all, my biggest fear is losing myself, or my sense of self. (Insignificance.. meaninglessness.)


I love that you brought all of this up, I forgot about the competitive envy of the sx4 and as you mention it now, how totally me. I am laughing, thank you for pointing it out. In the beginning, I felt a strong connection to 4, but I figured it was a wing and part of my tritype as well. I mean... that's a lot of 4 then. 

I will read some more and contemplate. My identification with 5 is quite sincere, but I am aware I live in me. I cannot be objective about me. Others can see what I may miss.


----------



## Animal

ripley said:


> I don't think it's ever ok to lose my shit.
> Like, people shouldn't be triggering me, and I should have enough awareness to prevent that. I should know myself better, I should not be invested in ego bullshit. Because that is all just ego, it's not detached. I don't think I should take anything too seriously because then I will miss the lesson/point/wisdom.


So would it be right to say that you have a very firm idea of your ideal self, and these things you "shouldn't be doing" and yet , you do - are signs that you are NOT your ideal self.. that there is a gap between your self (your actions) and your ideal self, which makes you angry at yourself?



> Also I resent people for taking away my control if they trigger me, _I am embarrassed to be seen as _out of control. _It's unseemly_. It's bad form. _It's for ghetto trashy people, not me._


These are image issues. You are embarrassed to be seen as [other than your ideal self]. You are superior [better than those inferior people]. This is shame and envy (shame about who you are, envy/longing to be your ideal self) AND a superiority/inferiority spectrum involving _comparing yourself to others._ 



> For me it's just that I believe my perceptions are right. I am right. Because I rarely get pushed far enough to care about something to want to be right and if I SEE something... I AM RIGHT. If it's not absolute truth, it is my truth. I don't like that other people are allowed to have their feelings and their truths, but expect me to go along. No. I am just as real as you.


Yeah. I agree with that completely. Also sounds like a line to 1, the way you phrase it, though I will admit it could be just human.


----------



## Animal

ripley said:


> I love that you brought all of this up, I forgot about the competitive envy of the sx4 and as you mention it now, how totally me. I am laughing, thank you for pointing it out. In the beginning, I felt a strong connection to 4, but I figured it was a wing and part of my tritype as well. I mean... that's a lot of 4 then.
> 
> I will read some more and contemplate. My identification with 5 is quite sincere, but I am aware I live in me. I cannot be objective about me. Others can see what I may miss.


Damn you know, I hate to be like "I relate to this thus you are this type" because anyone can be mistyped and it's a horrible way to type people - but REALLY.. I was exactly looking at it this way before I typed at 4. I know your identification with 5 is sincere, I can tell. Mine was too, and same with 8. I could still see those same things in myself even though I don't even type as a 5 fixer anymore (though I'm still somewhat uncertain about if I'm really a 5 wing or 5 fix because I do have some genuine 5 traits). But yeah, even your reaction to all of this reminds me of mine in some ways. Thanks for being open minded. Let me know what kinks you run into if its helpful. I'm not the master of enneagram by any means but one type I know VERY WELL is four. (Not just from personal experience but also my husband and close friend, and it's helpful that we all have different instincts, fixes and functions so we can really get down to what the meat of the type is, without the other fluff.)


----------



## 6007

Animal said:


> So would it be right to say that you have a very firm idea of your ideal self, and these things you "shouldn't be doing" and yet , you do - are signs that you are NOT your ideal self.. that there is a gap between your self (your actions) and your ideal self, which makes you angry at yourself?
> 
> 
> These are image issues. You are embarrassed to be seen as [other than your ideal self]. You are superior [better than those inferior people]. This is shame and envy (shame about who you are, envy/longing to be your ideal self) AND a superiority/inferiority spectrum involving _comparing yourself to others._
> 
> 
> Yeah. I agree with that completely. Also sounds like a line to 1, the way you phrase it, though I will admit it could be just human.


I wouldn't exactly say I am identified nor concerned with how others see me... but I care very much about how I behave and what I do. I judge me. I have a very developed higher self that most of the time naturally keeps me aligned. But once in a while I get bogged down in "human" and I do shit that seems out of character, but upon gathering the evidence, it's totally WITHIN my character. Inferior Fe outbursts are something I *do* when I'm provoked into a trigger response, but then I get trigger amnesia and forget that's shit I actually do. Because on the day to day grind, I'm pretty nice. I just am. I don't get all butthurt or weird, I have self-humor. But those once in a while things, they are jarring to my senses. 

I feel I rarely compare myself to others, and when I *do* the truth is, they pale compared to me. My mind is skewed toward my superiority. I get uncomfortable with people who dare suggest I be more humble. I dated one such person and I still resent him for the way he tried to dampen my swagger. My ex dead robot was the same. He hated my clothes and almost never approved of me, unless I was in some terrible jean shorts and tee shirt normal girl clothes. LOL

You know, I'm only proving your point here.

edited to add: my whole thing is really "don't take a shit on my individuality/autonomy. I am me, you are you. Let me be me, because I'm glad you're you. And I'm glad I'm me!"


----------



## Animal

Also @ripley
You display a pretty self-righteous line to 1, but you're clearly an 8 fixer. So that leaves me to wonder where the 1 is coming from, if not a line from 7 or 4. 7 makes no sense. You have a very firm emphasis on "WHO I AM" and "WHO I AM NOT" as a central theme. Sx7 doesn't feel right for you at all.
(just saying)


----------



## 6007

Animal said:


> Damn you know, I hate to be like "I relate to this thus you are this type" because anyone can be mistyped and it's a horrible way to type people - but REALLY.. I was exactly looking at it this way before I typed at 4. I know your identification with 5 is sincere, I can tell. Mine was too, and same with 8. I could still see those same things in myself even though I don't even type as a 5 fixer anymore (though I'm still somewhat uncertain about if I'm really a 5 wing or 5 fix because I do have some genuine 5 traits). But yeah, even your reaction to all of this reminds me of mine in some ways. Thanks for being open minded. Let me know what kinks you run into if its helpful. I'm not the master of enneagram by any means but one type I know VERY WELL is four. (Not just from personal experience but also my husband and close friend, and it's helpful that we all have different instincts, fixes and functions so we can really get down to what the meat of the type is, without the other fluff.)


I'm cool, I'm not tripping. Like I said, right is right. Accuracy is the only thing that matters. 
Whatever I call myself, I am what I am. But I'd like to be accurate and self-aware, if I can be.
I can only try.


----------



## Animal

ripley said:


> I wouldn't exactly say I am identified nor concerned with how others see me... but I care very much about how I behave and what I do. I judge me.


Same here. 4 has the line to 1 and theyre not an attachment type. Their image is more about feeling, internally, as though they're living up to their self image. When people say they're "boxed in" by the "label" of some type, I immediately know they're not a 4, because a 4s identity is too expansive and detached from outer influence to be boxed in by a label or a type. It is simply not how a 4 would feel . A 4 doesn't rebel or comply, because either would be allowing someone else's standards to define you. A 4 defines herself on her own terms.

How others see them, is just another perspective. 4s may pay attention to how others see them and react because they want to build a more firm grasp of who they are. LIke you said, you can't see you from within you. You can't see the forest through the trees. So other people's perspectives can broaden our own thinking about ourselves, but the point is not to convince anyone else of anything, but rather, to find our TRUE identity and our TRUE attitude. How we affect ohters is part of who we are so it's of interest to a 4 for that reason.



> I have a very developed higher self that most of the time naturally keeps me aligned. But once in a while I get bogged down in "human" and I do shit that seems out of character, but upon gathering the evidence, it's totally WITHIN my character.


Haha I do this too. And I feel the same way about the concept of "human" and being bogged down in it. I do really want to get in touch with my humanity so that I can express universal sentiments in my art, and my greatest gratification occurs when someone else sees HERSELF in my work rather than just seeing ME, because that's the best we can really do, right? Mirror our own humanity for someone else to see their own. 



> Inferior Fe outbursts are something I *do* when I'm provoked into a trigger response, but then I get trigger amnesia and forget that's shit I actually do. Because on the day to day grind, I'm pretty nice. I just am. I don't get all butthurt or weird, I have self-humor. But those once in a while things, they are jarring to my senses.


yeah, I get like this too - I gather evidence based on what I actually DO before I claim something as a trait. Sometimes it doesn't quite line up with my ideal self image but it might become part of my self image once I start to grasp that it's automatic for me. (Like having some humanity or a heart, for instance)



> I feel I rarely compare myself to others, and when I *do* the truth is, they pale compared to me.


Well, same here.. at least consciously. @_mimesis_ pointed out that I equated motherhood to slavery, and while I was not intending to offend anyone and my best friend irl is a mother of 4 and I love and adore her, I almost... belittled the thing that I'm NOT. It was so automatic I didn't notice myself doing it.

I compare myself in the same manner you do, for instance, to my ex's new girlfriend. I see how those two are better for each other but also why I am better than either of them. I don't feel the need to compare myself to most humans because we're not even the same species and they have no effect on my mindspace whatsoever.

The only time I can recall feeling classical envy is when I encounter someone who is "more me than me." Meaning, he was living the life I should have been living, but which got stripped from me by illness. Beyond that he was the person I should have been - heartfelt, human etc... I was no longer human, I had my humanity and innocence stripped from me or perhaps I dug it out of my own self. He reawakened me. But all my poems and songs about him are about how he has so much talent and opportunity but he threw it all away. That's what pisses me off the most. That's how envy manifests for me. "If I had what you have (which I did before illness), I would have XYZ, but all you do is rot away in a bar like a normal human... at least, even if I can't boast of your talent, I can be sure that losing myself to meaningless nonsense is something I'd never do."



> My mind is skewed toward my superiority. I get uncomfortable with people who dare suggest I be more humble. I dated one such person and I still resent him for the way he tried to dampen my swagger.


Me too. My ex told me "you have no shame" and I thanked him. I had sex with another guy at my pool party in front of about 50 people , and two of my exes were yelling "bitch" and "you have no shame" .... and I was like yeah whatever, you're jealous that I get whatever I want. Go lick your own shoes.

I was just telling my husband yesterday how the last guy I was into, he would be offended by my sexy clothes, and how I told him to eat shit in so many words and proved his whole mindset was bullshit. I turned his mind inside out with that shit. NOBODY interrupts my swag. My husband loves it. Both of us feel like its sexy if other people think the other one is hot, like "damn they wish they were me, they want what I have." My exes have been insecure about everyone else wanting me. I've never cheated or mislead anyone in any way when it comes to relationship issues. I'm very candid and frank about what I want out of this involvement, and cheating on someone would be cheating MYSELF out of my own honor. Simply never gonna happen; i have way too much self respect. Yet guys couldn't stand that my swag was none of their damn business.



> My ex dead robot was the same. He hated my clothes and almost never approved of me, unless I was in some terrible jean shorts and tee shirt normal girl clothes. LOL


"Dead robot" and "undead" is how I see most of the world. And yeah, that's what they're like.



> You know, I'm only proving your point here.


:kitteh:


----------



## 6007

Animal said:


> Same here. 4 has the line to 1 and theyre not an attachment type. Their image is more about feeling, internally, as though they're living up to their self image. When people say they're "boxed in" by the "label" of some type, I immediately know they're not a 4, because a 4s identity is too expansive and detached from outer influence to be boxed in by a label or a type. It is simply not how a 4 would feel . A 4 doesn't rebel or comply, because either would be allowing someone else's standards to define you. A 4 defines herself on her own terms.
> 
> How others see them, is just another perspective. 4s may pay attention to how others see them and react because they want to build a more firm grasp of who they are. LIke you said, you can't see you from within you. You can't see the forest through the trees. So other people's perspectives can broaden our own thinking about ourselves, but the point is not to convince anyone else of anything, but rather, to find our TRUE identity and our TRUE attitude. How we affect ohters is part of who we are so it's of interest to a 4 for that reason.
> 
> 
> Haha I do this too. And I feel the same way about the concept of "human" and being bogged down in it. I do really want to get in touch with my humanity so that I can express universal sentiments in my art, and my greatest gratification occurs when someone else sees HERSELF in my work rather than just seeing ME, because that's the best we can really do, right? Mirror our own humanity for someone else to see their own.
> 
> 
> yeah, I get like this too - I gather evidence based on what I actually DO before I claim something as a trait. Sometimes it doesn't quite line up with my ideal self image but it might become part of my self image once I start to grasp that it's automatic for me. (Like having some humanity or a heart, for instance)
> 
> 
> Well, same here.. at least consciously. @_mimesis_ pointed out that I equated motherhood to slavery, and while I was not intending to offend anyone and my best friend irl is a mother of 4 and I love and adore her, I almost... belittled the thing that I'm NOT. It was so automatic I didn't notice myself doing it.
> 
> I compare myself in the same manner you do, for instance, to my ex's new girlfriend. I see how those two are better for each other but also why I am better than either of them. I don't feel the need to compare myself to most humans because we're not even the same species and they have no effect on my mindspace whatsoever.
> 
> The only time I can recall feeling classical envy is when I encounter someone who is "more me than me." Meaning, he was living the life I should have been living, but which got stripped from me by illness. Beyond that he was the person I should have been - heartfelt, human etc... I was no longer human, I had my humanity and innocence stripped from me or perhaps I dug it out of my own self. He reawakened me. But all my poems and songs about him are about how he has so much talent and opportunity but he threw it all away. That's what pisses me off the most. That's how envy manifests for me. "If I had what you have (which I did before illness), I would have XYZ, but all you do is rot away in a bar like a normal human... at least, even if I can't boast of your talent, I can be sure that losing myself to meaningless nonsense is something I'd never do."
> 
> 
> Me too. My ex told me "you have no shame" and I thanked him. I had sex with another guy at my pool party in front of about 50 people , and two of my exes were yelling "bitch" and "you have no shame" .... and I was like yeah whatever, you're jealous that I get whatever I want. Go lick your own shoes.
> 
> I was just telling my husband yesterday how the last guy I was into, he would be offended by my sexy clothes, and how I told him to eat shit in so many words and proved his whole mindset was bullshit. I turned his mind inside out with that shit. NOBODY interrupts my swag. My husband loves it. Both of us feel like its sexy if other people think the other one is hot, like "damn they wish they were me, they want what I have." My exes have been insecure about everyone else wanting me. I've never cheated or mislead anyone in any way when it comes to relationship issues. I'm very candid and frank about what I want out of this involvement, and cheating on someone would be cheating MYSELF out of my own honor. Simply never gonna happen; i have way too much self respect. Yet guys couldn't stand that my swag was none of their damn business.
> 
> 
> "Dead robot" and "undead" is how I see most of the world. And yeah, that's what they're like.
> 
> 
> :kitteh:


What I notice is, I like your candor very much. But you come across to me as way more passionate and intense than I am, and I can't pinpoint why. It's like your passion is warm, and mine is cold? But that's quite subjective I suppose, just a curious feeling. 

For example I can't imagine being at a party with my exes, I am a bridge burner.
And if I was, I'd leave rather than let them see me connecting with others. What I do is sacred, and prying eyes take away my moment. I'm very very private. This is not a judgement, merely a response or whatever.

My ex best friend was an infp enneagram sx 4 and his intensity felt... I couldn't grasp it, yet I've been told *I* am intense. Of course now I've met a sx cp 6 and I look like a pussy comparatively but my visceral reaction is the same; sx 4 is BIGGER than me. I have a touch more detachment or minimizing issues or something. Fuckberries.

I will have to think, I think. LOL


----------



## Animal

ripley said:


> What I notice is, I like your candor very much. But you come across to me as way more passionate and intense than I am, and I can't pinpoint why. It's like your passion is warm, and mine is cold? But that's quite subjective I suppose, just a curious feeling.


I'm Sx/So. That warmth comes from So, I think. You strike me as Sx/Sp.



> For example I can't imagine being at a party with my exes, I am a bridge burner.


My town is a big clusterfuck. But yeah I get you. I don't burn bridges. I'm honest as hell so I'm still on decent terms with all exes except for two who are psycho and who I cut out. Not that I have some huge social life though. What I mean is, I could invite them to my wedding and they could invite me to theirs and nothing would be weird; but I might not speak to them for years.

Also those weren't serious exes. Where serious relationships are concerned (like ones that last more than a few months), I also can't really keep up a connection afterwards. I might have nothing against them per se, but it's just weird.

I'm not a bridge burner though. I don't let people in fully in the first place, so they might no longer exist as part of my mindspace or heartspace, but still we could laugh or be cordial at a party. Or in some cases, I still value the connection we had, it's just not central to my life anymore.



> And if I was, I'd leave rather than let them see me connecting with others. What I do is sacred, and prying eyes take away my moment. I'm very very private. This is not a judgement, merely a response or whatever.


This was sacred in its own rite.. but I won't go too much into it.. it was more than 10 years ago. Normally I'm not much of an exhibitionist and prefer private moments. With this guy, the specific way this went down, there was a sacred almost spiritual element to it.. and it turned absolutely 100% private after that first connection, even as we socialized in the same group for three years.. nobody knew our business. That was the first time and we'd been watching each other for a while so there was sort of this careless magic to it, like "finally this is happening, who cares who else is watching?" We built our own bubble. But yeah, following that, it was totally a private thing that nobody even knew about.


Sacred means different things in different situations. But I will give you this - I'm not private about events and things I do, but most people think they know me a lot better than they actually do.


> My ex best friend was an infp enneagram sx 4 and his intensity felt... I couldn't grasp it, yet I've been told *I* am intense. Of course now I've met a sx cp 6 and I look like a pussy comparatively but my visceral reaction is the same; sx 4 is BIGGER than me. I have a touch more detachment or minimizing issues or something. Fuckberries.
> 
> I will have to think, I think. LOL


Yeah. If youre a 4, youre a 4w5 with a 5 fix. So, that could explain some of it. Also, you type at ISTP. While I will withhold comment on my opinion on that, since I don't really have one, I can see you're not Fi first.


----------



## Animal

Also @_ripley_
If it helps at all, I see you as being much more candid than I am, when you post about your exes and Byron and so forth. I can never post such detailed descriptions of my relationships and feelings about them while they are happening. My declarations of feelings are passionate and intense indeed, but abstract; they are about my feelings, leaving out details about the events or specific people.

The public sex thing was also more obscure than it sounds, because it involves pools and hot tubs, so people could not be totally sure what we were doing, which was what made it exciting to us. We were told that we looked like greek gods and there was nothing cheap about it. Like there was just a cloud around us. We both counted that moment as 'sacred' although it wasn't private. But I'm with you about privacy, and I actually find that while I have written a lot of feelings about relationship issues on forum, I've never given as many details as you have about my relationships. (Even when I was more anonymous here.)

So, I also have the same impression that YOU are more candid than I am. But just in a different arena.

I agree with your assessment of hot vs cold however.


----------



## 6007

Animal said:


> I'm Sx/So. That warmth comes from So, I think. You strike me as Sx/Sp.
> 
> 
> My town is a big clusterfuck. But yeah I get you. I don't burn bridges. I'm honest as hell so I'm still on decent terms with all exes except for two who are psycho and who I cut out. Not that I have some huge social life though. What I mean is, I could invite them to my wedding and they could invite me to theirs and nothing would be weird; but I might not speak to them for years.
> 
> Also those weren't serious exes. Where serious relationships are concerned (like ones that last more than a few months), I also can't really keep up a connection afterwards. I might have nothing against them per se, but it's just weird.
> 
> I'm not a bridge burner though. I don't let people in fully in the first place, so they might no longer exist as part of my mindspace or heartspace, but still we could laugh or be cordial at a party. Or in some cases, I still value the connection we had, it's just not central to my life anymore.
> 
> 
> This was sacred in its own rite.. but I won't go too much into it.. it was more than 10 years ago. Normally I'm not much of an exhibitionist and prefer private moments. With this guy, the specific way this went down, there was a sacred almost spiritual element to it.. and it turned absolutely 100% private after that first connection, even as we socialized in the same group for three years.. nobody knew our business. That was the first time and we'd been watching each other for a while so there was sort of this careless magic to it, like "finally this is happening, who cares who else is watching?" We built our own bubble. But yeah, following that, it was totally a private thing that nobody even knew about.
> 
> 
> Sacred means different things in different situations. But I will give you this - I'm not private about events and things I do, but most people think they know me a lot better than they actually do.
> 
> Yeah. If youre a 4, youre a 4w5 with a 5 fix. So, that could explain some of it. Also, you type at ISTP. While I will withhold comment on my opinion on that, since I don't really have one, I can see you're not Fi first.


I can totally conceive of public sex as being sacred too. I mean, I considered doing porn with byron. No idea why except that dude, it's amazing. LOL.
I definitely burn bridges... That's just my style and always has been. I can only think of two people I *didn't* burn bridges with, but I don't talk to either simply because they might not want to talk to me. I still love them, on my end. 

I am very private... I am not someone people get to know, not really. At first it was me hoarding myself, call a spade a spade... I felt like a limited resource. Now I'm less private and come across as frank, self-revealing, etc. But there are certain spaces no one is allowed into, and I am most myself when I'm all alone. There isn't any noise to cloud my thought process or distract me, and I feel most wholly myself and true. It's odd and maybe lots of people feel that way. 

I've made A LOT of friends since my divorce... mostly through messenger on FB. People seem to find me palatable this way. It's easier to talk about what matters and not have anyone be distracted by their vision/eyes. No one can put me on a pedestal there... I can be real and flawed, and human, and talk about real stuff that actually matters to me personally, not small talk, but big talk. I love big talk. 

Ok, I'll stop now and I will definitely reconsider 4 and the other types filtered through the sx lens.


----------



## 6007

Animal said:


> Also @_ripley_
> If it helps at all, I see you as being much more candid than I am, when you post about your exes and Byron and so forth. I can never post such detailed descriptions of my relationships and feelings about them while they are happening. My declarations of feelings are passionate and intense indeed, but abstract; they are about my feelings, leaving out details about the events or specific people.
> 
> The public sex thing was also more obscure than it sounds, because it involves pools and hot tubs, so people could not be totally sure what we were doing, which was what made it exciting to us. We were told that we looked like greek gods and there was nothing cheap about it. Like there was just a cloud around us. We both counted that moment as 'sacred' although it wasn't private. But I'm with you about privacy, and I actually find that while I have written a lot of feelings about relationship issues on forum, I've never given as many details as you have about my relationships. (Even when I was more anonymous here.)
> 
> So, I also have the same impression that YOU are more candid than I am. But just in a different arena.
> 
> I agree with your assessment of hot vs cold however.


Well, to be honest, I write on this forum for myself, and I forget people are here. I expect to be ignored and by and large I am.
I have to be specific in my thinking and writing because I write to analyze my experience, and by the time an experience is had, it's less... I don't know. I don't mind being candid. I reveal myself here, warts and all, because I don't see the point in lying. I would love to be a wonderful person, but in reality I'm exactly like everyone else; I have mean and petty parts too and I can admit them. i think it gives others permission to be real when i am. Thus I practice here, and the writing i've done on this forum has influenced my life offline. I am just the same, except I filter out the blow by blow sex stuff because people are a little squeamish about certain things I take as normal. HAHAHHAHAAA.

I wouldn't let a soul who knows me in person know I post here.
I've befriended a few people from here elsewhere and that was ok, but Byron isn't allowed to read this stuff. My identity is splashed all over this place and it's *mine.* I needed one place I could just be myself and not be bothered, and I liked that it could be archived and that I could read things others are doing and feeling as well. I would censor myself if my lover read on here. It would ruin everything for me.


----------



## mimesis

Animal said:


> Haha. I have the same problem.. I want to keep my "animal" avatar forever but I couldn't resist putting up this picture from my wedding
> 
> I will go back to this soon enough, though-


I'm glad you did 
In fact, I'd love to see it in a higher resolution...please?


----------



## Animal

mimesis said:


> I'm glad you did
> In fact, I'd love to see it in a higher resolution...please?


----------



## Animal

ripley said:


> I can totally conceive of public sex as being sacred too. I mean, I considered doing porn with byron. No idea why except that dude, it's amazing. LOL.


Haha  yeah.. it all depends on the dynamic between people, the moment etc. Plus based on your posts here it seems that would be some intense video. (Although I don't watch porn at all so I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not judgmental about it in the slightest, it just does nothing for me)



> I definitely burn bridges... That's just my style and always has been. I can only think of two people I *didn't* burn bridges with, but I don't talk to either simply because they might not want to talk to me. I still love them, on my end.


Yeah.. the guy I mentioned before, I have nothing to say to him really, and he probably doesn't to me either, but I'm totally rooting for him and the woman he's with (who is a friend of mine).. both separately and as a pair. A couple years ago I dug back into my past and tied up some loose ends, contacted those ghosts who were eating away at me and found closure. This was the only one I know I will never discuss directly, but I don't deserve to.. it was a learning experience for me and forced me to really think about the kind of person I was and the kind of person I needed to become.



> I am very private... I am not someone people get to know, not really. At first it was me hoarding myself, call a spade a spade... I felt like a limited resource. Now I'm less private and come across as frank, self-revealing, etc. But there are certain spaces no one is allowed into, and I am most myself when I'm all alone. There isn't any noise to cloud my thought process or distract me, and I feel most wholly myself and true. It's odd and maybe lots of people feel that way.


I think i've always come across as self-revealing and frank, but I'm definitely a limited resource. I need tons of time to myself. It bothers my friends and they sometimes have to console each other about it (I found that out today). They don't understand my NEED for tons of alone time. I'm living with my husband though, and we type separately on our computers in the same room. He is the only human I've ever been able to write my book in front of.. and share space with like this without feeling crowded. We both need our own headspace and heartspace, so we can give that to each other while being in the same physical space. It's like magic. He is definitely my soul mate :blushed:



> I've made A LOT of friends since my divorce... mostly through messenger on FB. People seem to find me palatable this way. It's easier to talk about what matters and not have anyone be distracted by their vision/eyes. No one can put me on a pedestal there... I can be real and flawed, and human, and talk about real stuff that actually matters to me personally, not small talk, but big talk. I love big talk.


I had this experience on perc too. I started a facebook to promote my music. I have actually had people in various groups throughout my life, those who don't know each other at all (college, hometown, highschool, etc) call me "Art." They nicknamed me that, not me. I was a living, walking artpiece; a symbol of myself, but not a human. My three facebook profiles were my self-expression, each an alter-ego but also very much the totality of ME. My every interaction online was some manner of performance, even though in person I can be silly and candid and ridiculous, and even unhinged at times.

When I came to perc, my first user name was my stage name, which I invented myself because it had specific very deep meaning along with my meaningful band name. I had a link to my music in my sig (like I do now), and I had info about my website on my bio. But then when I saw what this website was like, I backtracked. I erased all evidence of my actual name and identity that I possibly could, and became anonymous. It was the first time I was just me, bare. No music, no glamorous outfits, no beauty, nothing.. just me, my words. I wanted to become a better writer so I told myself this would help me. It did. But I also knew that what I wanted, was to be SOMEBODY... without my art, my photoshops of my male alter ego next to me in our glamourous costumes, my music, my other armor. My glamor is my armor. I needed to just be me... and yet, I thought people wouldn't like me. I wouldn't stand out, I wouldn't be _enough_. But the fact that I had these thoughts, compelled me to hang around here even more, and reveal things about myself that I never did before. And now, I've met my husband here and some of my closest friends. After about 3 years I started putting music and pics up because my perc friends and real friends had intermingled enough, whether on skype or facebook or even in person..that it was pointless. But my mission was accomplished - I built myself up from nothing, nobody... I became lovable all on the merit of my soul. This really helped me grow. You might not relate to that, and it's kind of embarrassing, but that's what I went through. And like you mentioned, now, I feel much more at ease in other situations too, talking about some of the things that once were reserved for diaries and lyrics only.

If you hear the song in my sig, it's about this. I wrote it in 2007, joined here in 2012. The song is stating that I am loved for my image but its all an illusion, and I'm only real in my art. (please don't quote it here though, I don't want fans or family to search out the quotes lol)




> Ok, I'll stop now and I will definitely reconsider 4 and the other types filtered through the sx lens.






ripley said:


> Well, to be honest, I write on this forum for myself, and I forget people are here. I expect to be ignored and by and large I am.


Nooooo. The eyes are always prying :ninja:



> I have to be specific in my thinking and writing because I write to analyze my experience, and by the time an experience is had, it's less... I don't know. I don't mind being candid. I reveal myself here, warts and all, because I don't see the point in lying. I would love to be a wonderful person, but in reality I'm exactly like everyone else; I have mean and petty parts too and I can admit them. i think it gives others permission to be real when i am. Thus I practice here, and the writing i've done on this forum has influenced my life offline. I am just the same, except I filter out the blow by blow sex stuff because people are a little squeamish about certain things I take as normal. HAHAHHAHAAA.


I reveal myself here, warts and all.. but in my case the warts arent necessarily about being mean.. it's more about being vulnerable. Everyone irl knows me as a heartbreaker, a dream chaser, a soul crusher and a survivor. I would meet men and they'd tell me they knew about the hearts I'd broken before, and I would never deny it. What I'd deny is that I have feelings at all, that I have needs, that I can be hurt too. I revealed that here. And alas, now I reveal it in my relationships and friendships too, and they are much better for it.



> I wouldn't let a soul who knows me in person know I post here.
> I've befriended a few people from here elsewhere and that was ok, but Byron isn't allowed to read this stuff. My identity is splashed all over this place and it's *mine.* I needed one place I could just be myself and not be bothered, and I liked that it could be archived and that I could read things others are doing and feeling as well. I would censor myself if my lover read on here. It would ruin everything for me.


I know exactly what you mean - I had that with the last guy. But I know @_Sun Daeva_ is my soulmate for reasons like this. I told him I was writing these posts about sex and my ex and my past.. he loves that I'm honest, that I express myself. He knows I love him with every fiber of my being, but I still need to be me. He told me when we first met that he would never try to cage something so beautiful. And that is why I am his pet, at his beck and call, and he is mine. We both crave the others' honesty. We can talk about our past. We can post about it. Of course, we don't post about our private problems, that would be ridiculous.. but there's no need to because we solve them.

My friend at our wedding gave a toast, that we always over-analyze everything together. And that since I've been with @_Sun Daeva_ she has never received a single phone call like "he's doing this...what should I do about it?".... he and I have always both prioritized facing EVERYTHING together, and immediately. I have yet to feel the need to turn to a third party, a diary, or anything else to figure out how to deal with him, and that is an absolute miracle. And I love that I can be myself and write about this stuff. He watched me write this stuff for a year before we started talking on skype so why would he be offended if I do it now? ... I just love that about him.


----------



## Animal

(Note to self: You_ do_ have a 3 wing.. don't ever doubt it..)


----------



## Sweetish

@ripley If it's SX subtype, my vote is enneagram type 9 (wing 8).

-you say that you're the most yourself when you're alone, this is the strongest clue

-for a long time you didn't take 'ownership' of your body and it's boundaries so to speak

-you are slow to anger, but when you at last express anger you relish the release, this is a minor but important detail

-it's not that you're jealous or envious, it's _why_ (your unconscious mind knows, and any cover story is bullshit)

-when you're stressing, you seem to indulge in an SX 6 mindset, making assessments of your assortment of past and present love interests

-integrating is a movement toward type 3, and that's where your image emerges which you can tweak as you see fit



I'll add that your style of writing, or your tone, is certainly different depending on what you're posting about /who you're posting to. Something about it is quite markedly changed. Deliberate. Like the painter stepping away from the easel to say, "Enough paintings, for now. You know my paintings, but do you know me? Here, let me tell you about myself..." and while people get lost in hearing your words you've subtly returned to painting yet another picture.

You state that you expect to be ignored, but you can't say that's actually been the case. Lack of direct engagement in conversation doesn't equate to being ignored- yet, you've described that as being the outcome. In a slight of hand, you've consciously numbed your expectations. You feel ignored because you want direct acknowledgment, which you often don't feel that you've received here to the extent that would fulfill you, but you phrase it as though no one paid any attention to you at all- which you can't state as fact. I begin to wonder when you developed a habit of standing out and making people notice you so that you feel seen, acknowledged, as opposed to "ignored". It might not even matter what you do to get the attention, so long as people are compelled to notice you and react, validating you in that moment. I think this is the 8 wing of type 9 showing itself.

I married and divorced an SX, SO type 9 (wing 8). You do seem SX, SP.

I wouldn't know if I've yet met an ISTP enneagram type 9, SX subtype. I would agree that you could seem like a head type simply due to Ti dom.

School me, if you please?


----------



## 6007

Sweetish said:


> @_ripley_ If it's SX subtype, my vote is enneagram type 9 (wing 8).
> 
> -you say that you're the most yourself when you're alone, this is the strongest clue
> 
> -for a long time you didn't take 'ownership' of your body and it's boundaries so to speak
> 
> -you are slow to anger, but when you at last express anger you relish the release, this is a minor but important detail
> 
> -it's not that you're jealous or envious, it's _why_ (your unconscious mind knows, and any cover story is bullshit)
> 
> -when you're stressing, you seem to indulge in an SX 6 mindset, making assessments of your assortment of past and present love interests
> 
> -integrating is a movement toward type 3, and that's where your image emerges which you can tweak as you see fit
> 
> 
> 
> I'll add that your style of writing, or your tone, is certainly different depending on what you're posting about /who you're posting to. Something about it is quite markedly changed. Deliberate. Like the painter stepping away from the easel to say, "Enough paintings, for now. You know my paintings, but do you know me? Here, let me tell you about myself..." and while people get lost in hearing your words you've subtly returned to painting yet another picture.
> 
> You state that you expect to be ignored, but you can't say that's actually been the case. Lack of direct engagement in conversation doesn't equate to being ignored- yet, you've described that as being the outcome. In a slight of hand, you've consciously numbed your expectations. You feel ignored because you want direct acknowledgment, which you often don't feel that you've received here to the extent that would fulfill you, but you phrase it as though no one paid any attention to you at all- which you can't state as fact. I begin to wonder when you developed a habit of standing out and making people notice you so that you feel seen, acknowledged, as opposed to "ignored". It might not even matter what you do to get the attention, so long as people are compelled to notice you and react, validating you in that moment. I think this is the 8 wing of type 9 showing itself.
> 
> I married and divorced an SX, SO type 9 (wing 8). You do seem SX, SP.
> 
> I wouldn't know if I've yet met an ISTP enneagram type 9, SX subtype. I would agree that you could seem like a head type simply due to Ti dom.
> 
> School me, if you please?


i just love this. I will have to take more time to digest it. 
Off the top of my head I will simply say I write what pleases me when it pleases me and I do it primarily for myself. I feel a sense of surprise and annoyance when people talk to me mostly because I come here to connect with myself, not anyone else. I love lighthearted banter, but that doesn't feel intimate (primarily with istp who I actually like talking to but who I don't feel "safe" going super Deep there because they actually talk to me and I don't want to hear it when I want to vent). I don't like when people intrude on my mental space, I feel like no one should give a shit what I say because it is all mine. And it largely works. I get to be alone here and figure out my shit. This is pretty much my way of tracking and making sense of my life; but I cannot honestly say why I prefer doing it here than elsewhere. I have done so for so long the habit is fairly strong and I like reading the things others post. I also like certain members quite a lot, whether I speak to them or no. 

Ive met nines in person, and they are much less aggressively questioning than I am. They don't know how or what they feel, and my feelings are my whole life. I've been on intimate terms with two nines, and they are not there. They find me overwhelmingly intense in a mental and emotional way, which could as you suggest be an eight wing or a SX subtype. However if I had an eight wing, it wouldn't have been as hard for me to enforce my physical boundaries, despite having been raised by a codependent parent with whom boundaries wasn't permitted and I fought--hard--with my mind. My mind was my weapon and my retreat. And until just now I never considered this as important, and perhaps it isn't but, my defense against invasion is straight into my mind. When I was being raped, I couldn't fight the person, I was so drunk my body wouldn't move. I started saying a bunch of weird shit, thinking it would be the antiboner. It didn't work, but I tried. I started talking about his mom. I definitely withdraw as a way of dealing with life, partially due to introversion and partially because I can most clearly feel and hear my thoughts when I'm alone, and that is me. I don't stuff down emotion nor do I search for peace. I want to know how why who what and understand with a scientific exactitude why I feel what I feel and how that makes me in the world. I discover myself in interacting with the world but I find the meaning when I'm alone. 

Meep. I can read about sexual 9. I mean I am not opposed to any type I really don't care. Right is right. 5 issues resonate when I read books but maybe I'm delusional. Most people are.


----------



## Brains

ripley said:


> They don't know how or what they feel, and my feelings are my whole life.


I have an extremely hard time imagining an ISTP saying this except as a joke.


----------



## 6007

Brains said:


> I have an extremely hard time imagining an ISTP saying this except as a joke.


That's nice.


----------



## Animal

ripley said:


> I didn't pick up nine vibes to be honest. I was just throwing it out to see what happened.
> You may have written something about being withdrawn and I remembered the 459 tritype being triple withdrawn. So I just said something because of that really


Ahh I see. Yeah. I can be aggressive/ talkative as hell/ blunt/ withdrawn/ shy etc.. it depends on a lot of factors. Overall I'm withdrawn unless I have something of substance to say. I am not great at coming up with small talk but if there's an intense interaction where real thoughts are being exchanged or real energy.. I'm very present and engaging, I suppose. Unless i'm secretly obsessed with the person and over-worrying about anything stupid that I might say and then I'm rendered silent, since I can't say the thing that's really on my mind..which is "omg I want you.. but I'm not enough :,( "


----------



## 6007

Animal said:


> Ahh I see. Yeah. I can be aggressive/ talkative as hell/ blunt/ withdrawn/ shy etc.. it depends on a lot of factors. Overall I'm withdrawn unless I have something of substance to say. I am not great at coming up with small talk but if there's an intense interaction where real thoughts are being exchanged or real energy.. I'm very present and engaging, I suppose. Unless i'm secretly obsessed with the person and over-worrying about anything stupid that I might say and then I'm rendered silent, since I can't say the thing that's really on my mind..which is "omg I want you.. but I'm not enough :,( "


This is where it's hard to tweeze out the differences of introversion, Fi, and enneagram type. 
Because I think all of those factors influence what is being felt, valued, and fretted over. 
So for example it's hard to tell what in me is Ti talking, what is fivish tendencies, and what is SX energy, and what is general introversion. It all goes together. 
I can more easily see tritype in other people in real time, but health levels can throw things off. 

Oh! What would you say your health levels are presently? That would make it a bit clearer I imagine. 

I can't say I often want or obsess over other people much. People sort of become an abstract idea to me, and I relate to them in my mind a lot... But it's weird. I think about what I think about them. So for example I don't feel FOMO much because what they did doesn't impact me. They are only real to me when they are interacting with me or in regards to how we are together. As I write this I am Suddenly aware I might sound like a fucking psycho! I have a hard time glamorizing anyone else, but I can fetishize someone slightly if we are sexually interacting. Anyway this isn't about me but it does clarify stuff for me, I have a remove from others; I am very inclined to destroy, rather than to identify with. And I destroy what is outside me, what is not me, so it can never have power over me. It's super stupid and hilarious. I'm inherently subversive.


----------



## Kintsugi

Hmm. All this talk of 5 and 5 fixes and I am starting to see it in my partner, again...

I think I must see 5 through the lens of how I understand Ni (because of my experiences with my INTJ other half). Also, at times I read the 5 integrating to 8 descriptions as Ni seeking Se. Cognitive functions really do confuse things (and the fact that I understand best through experience).

Sometimes I wish intuition wasn't my inferior!


----------



## inverity

I might be too late for this, but feel free to type me!


----------



## Animal

ripley said:


> This is where it's hard to tweeze out the differences of introversion, Fi, and enneagram type.


Yes. I am so relieved I finally realized I'm an INFP and the implications... this is why I started rethinking my head fix, partly. Because I understood what was a result of MBTI, etc. 



> Because I think all of those factors influence what is being felt, valued, and fretted over.
> So for example it's hard to tell what in me is Ti talking, what is fivish tendencies, and what is SX energy, and what is general introversion. It all goes together.


Yes so true. I'm Ne second so I don't tend to try to tweeze things apart as much as 'percolate' about whatever information I take in... and then eventually some epiphany happens and the whole puzzle comes together on its own.



> I can more easily see tritype in other people in real time, but health levels can throw things off.


Yeah me too. Real life, video or other things are so much easier!



> Oh! What would you say your health levels are presently? That would make it a bit clearer I imagine.


Fairly good! For once.. haha. But I was talking about more the way I am overall - which of course is easier to dicuss when I am healthy. When unhealthy, I'm so.. 'stuck at the crux" (Fi?) it's harder to express the bigger picture... when the current mess is so pressing and feels pervasive. The thing is, I also see myself as an experiment in a way. Whatever comes out of me then, in the heat of things , be it diary entries, art, whatever - gets taken in later on, routinely, to piece together "Who I Am." But while I'm doing it, I have no conscious awareness of that; I'm just purging and expressing the emotions. So I have quite a lot of material from "When I'm in the THICK of things" (emotionally) to see my greater pattern. I also write books which reveal the more ongoing and stable characteristics of me, or patterns, through a character originally based on my ex who accidentally turned into a mirror of myself.



> I can't say I often want or obsess over other people much. People sort of become an abstract idea to me, and I relate to them in my mind a lot... But it's weird. I think about what I think about them. So for example I don't feel FOMO much because what they did doesn't impact me. They are only real to me when they are interacting with me or in regards to how we are together.


I am exactly like this except when it comes to "the one crush." I am happy to say I've married my soulmate so that kind of obsessing will probably be a thing of the past; limited to the ghosts of my past that haunt me in my dreams. Which does not mean I want to contact them - they are symbols to me; symbols of my development. At one time I may have liked or loved them, but now, it's more like a Si template of all my experiences that continuously crop up to show me bits of myself. I am a living, breathing example of the 4ish "internal hall of mirrors." 

My past is framed into a series of obsessions - not always with other humans. My internal life is cyclical. I'm the center of a sphere and whatever is happening around me percolates and percolates... sometimes something catches momentum ... but once it finally gets to the crux I explode like a volcano and purge it ... its remains change form, but stay within the sphere to percolate about, but no longer fuel my center. 



> As I write this I am Suddenly aware I might sound like a fucking psycho!


I've had that thought myself  (about me, I mean)



> I have a hard time glamorizing anyone else, but I can fetishize someone slightly if we are sexually interacting.


Yeah, I don't fetishize. I have had my sexual playground, and I have had my emotional intensity... they are not always the same. No matter how sexually compatible I am with someone, I am always honest about my lack of intent to develop more - and I know my feelings well so they don't "Grow" - once I've decided, I am perfectly capable of enjoying myself - in an honest, straight forward fashion - with close friends without expectations. In the past anyway. I lost interest in that about ten years ago after an experience that really shook my core. But, "The One Obsession" is something else. That is what would haunt me, regardless whetehr there was sex or not. Those people (or my experiences and feelings about them) became mirrors of myself, eventually, even if they were people to me at one time.



> Anyway this isn't about me


No, I love the interaction style. I find conversations that are comparing and constrasting to be illuminating, and also more interesting than just talking about myself..  so feel free to respond to my rants with your own (that goes for anyone)



> but it does clarify stuff for me, I have a remove from others; I am very inclined to destroy, rather than to identify with.


I'm inclined to feel synergy OR destructive urges for the ones who matter. On a day to day level when interacting in conversation, I relate or more often don't relate; it's just how Fi people process things. But it's momentary. Just because something matches my inner template of Fi and Si experiences, colors, emotions and things... does not mean that person matters in a deeper way beyond that moment OR that they stay with me or leave an impression. It's just my palette of emotional and internal feedback is so well developed that I can match it (or contrast it) to what I'm experiencing in some way, almost instantly.



> And I destroy what is outside me, what is not me, so it can never have power over me.


I do this too... but only if it has power over me in the first place, which most things and people don't.



> It's super stupid and hilarious. I'm inherently subversive.


Ha. I like that. I don't know if I'd say I'm inherently that way but it is a strong inclination when something is coming too close to the center and sticking around for too long.


----------



## Animal

Oh and @ripley I definitely think you're a 5 core. Just my opinion. I think the 4 is more peripheral.


----------



## Sweetish

@ripley So, days ago when I read your reply, I immediately considered that I could be associating what are SX tendencies with enneagram type, so I was doing you a disservice while I learn the distinctions between traits. I had blurred some lines in my thinking, so I adjusted for that.

I'm trying to weigh what makes the most sense: SX 8 (wing 9) disintegrating to type 5; or SX 5 (wing 4) integrating to type 8

The first does seem more likely.

So, I have some questions. What types of knowledge do you use as a defense? For example, through which to feel "safe", or competent, or to reduce your anxiety /fear, etc.

How do you use what you know- and likewise what you don't know (unconsciously, so initially you wouldn't notice until you reflect on it later) or what you become aware that you don't know- to prepare, or to feel ready for something? Do you stall, delay initiating action of some kind, by building up a storehouse of some kind of information?

Also, people having been described as abstract to you, have you found that there are things about them which you are less aware of, that you've been told you neglect to notice? Do you have a priority on what matters to you to take note of in the world, while the rest is relatively unimportant or trivial? Basically, do you have a blind spot? Is there something you've yet to understand about, well, *shrugs* people or the world in general, that you continue to try to figure out in your own way?

Also, I've been wondering something about subversion in general. When subverting, do you resort to flippant mockery? Can you mock something, yet still like it? If so, then why mock it?


I don't have any interaction with you whatsoever outside of the internet, so I have no idea what your ratio of thinking to action truly is.


As a child, I over-felt things internally via Si, simply because that's my dominant function. I began to analyze and over-think things as a teenager, with really underdeveloped logic that couldn't withstand objective scrutiny. My Ti was weak for a long time, but even so I would still want to stay out of direct involvement with things. The world overstimulated my mind and internal senses. I had ongoing, untreated anxiety and other issues. It really wasn't until I was 29 or 30 that I realized I'd been wasting my time doing far too much thinking and not enough of putting my thoughts into action to see if they were even valid thoughts, if they had any merit.

It used to be that what I didn't know scared the hell out of me. Even as a child, approaching a darkened area of the house I would freeze in my steps and quiet my breathing, frightened and imagining what lurked beyond the light. The fact that I couldn't be sure was what made me so scared, but there was a day when I said to myself... I don't know what's there. Probably the usual stuff. I know that typically nothing out of the ordinary is there once I get to a light to turn on to illuminate everything. As far as I know, everything will be the same. I shouldn't be scared of what I don't know is there. If anything is amiss, or a creature or a person is there who shouldn't be, it should be scared of *me*. It doesn't matter what is or isn't there. I know that I can handle it.

Voila.

Like a mental, magic trick.

I didn't know what was going to happen. That made the experience become more exhilarating than scary. That mental exercise refocused or re-framed something for me. It put my mental awareness into my physical awareness, so my Si wasn't simply embodying past sensations but was working to build new ones in the heat of the moment. Instead of feeling the fear, or the dread, I was feeling what could follow once I moved past it. I was feeling was what possible, and not simply the negative outcome that my inferior, Ne fueled, wild imagination jumped to consider first which my dominant Si would become consumed by a preoccupation with.

@The Perfect Storm I'm trying to relate through Si to what you've written about Ni to Se.

When I feel a shift from my usual mode, I'm more likely to boldly confront a person, especially in public, and just say what I want to say without filtering it through precaution or second-guessing myself. I reach a point where observation can't go anywhere if I remain detached. I have to instigate something. I have to push past what would usually cause me great discomfort. I do it in an uncharacteristic way, which is by swatting Fe, Ti, and Ne like they're annoying flying insects, instead channeling all that I feel into my internal senses. I throw what could happen to the wind, because anything could happen. I can make anything happen, right then, in that moment, simply by seizing this sense of having the power of not giving a good gawdamn about consequences or implications. It's more about feeling what I am instead of stopping to mull it over. I guess that I just do it in an Si way that allows my Ne to say sneakily from the back of my mind:

_Anything can happen. You just might like it. Better to regret the action that you take than to regret the things which you never had the guts to do. See what happens. See what other people are made of. See what you're made of. Create a new experience. Do try to at least enjoy the unknown, for @#$% sake._


----------



## Sweetish

Sweetish said:


> The first does seem more likely.


I should've proofread what I typed sooner.  I meant to say that it's more likely that you're type 5 (wing 4) integrating to type 8.


----------



## Kintsugi

Sweetish said:


> @_The Perfect Storm_ I'm trying to relate through Si to what you've written about Ni to Se.
> 
> When I feel a shift from my usual mode, I'm more likely to boldly confront a person, especially in public, and just say what I want to say without filtering it through precaution or second-guessing myself. I reach a point where observation can't go anywhere if I remain detached. I have to instigate something. I have to push past what would usually cause me great discomfort. I do it in an uncharacteristic way, which is by swatting Fe, Ti, and Ne like they're annoying flying insects, instead channeling all that I feel into my internal senses. I throw what could happen to the wind, because anything could happen. I can make anything happen, right then, in that moment, simply by seizing this sense of having the power of not giving a good gawdamn about consequences or implications. It's more about feeling what I am instead of stopping to mull it over. I guess that I just do it in an Si way that allows my Ne to say sneakily from the back of my mind:
> 
> _Anything can happen. You just might like it. Better to regret the action that you take than to regret the things which you never had the guts to do. See what happens. See what other people are made of. See what you're made of. Create a new experience. Do try to at least enjoy the unknown, for @#$% sake._


I have issues with both, a) talking without thinking things through (no filter), and, b) over-thinking stuff (analysis paralysis) to the point where I end up saying nothing (or just a jumbled mess comes out, lol).

I've got no issues with approaching people or putting myself out there in the world (unless I'm suffering from anxiety and depression related issues). My partner (INTJ) is very different to me in this respect but he doesn't seem to have issues with seizing his "power" and driving towards his goals. He can actually fall into depressive/apathetic spells when he feels "unfulfilled" (i.e. he hasn't worked hard enough to reach his potential and actualise his visions in reality).

The guy is like a machine sometimes. He will not stop until he's literally dropped. His drive is really quite sexy. :blushed:


----------



## Sweetish

The Perfect Storm said:


> I have issues with both, a) talking without thinking things through (no filter), and, b) over-thinking stuff (analysis paralysis) to the point where I end up saying nothing (or just a jumbled mess comes out, lol).


My STP boyfriend -I'm not 100% sure if he's ESTP or ISTP because he's enneatype 7 and I can't tell what his inferior function is- has told me that! That he has no filter between his brain and his mouth. He insta-speaks his thoughts and then realizes whether it was the wrong thing to say.  I'm learning this awesome technique from him. XD I think he's also learning from me about how to refrain, but I can't be sure... LOL



> I've got no issues with approaching people or putting myself out there in the world (unless I'm suffering from anxiety and depression related issues). My partner (INTJ) is very different to me in this respect but he doesn't seem to have issues with seizing his "power" and driving towards his goals. He can actually fall into depressive/apathetic spells when he feels "unfulfilled" (i.e. he hasn't worked hard enough to reach his potential and actualise his visions in reality).
> 
> The guy is like a machine sometimes. He will not stop until he's literally dropped. His drive is really quite sexy. :blushed:


Whoah. I mean, uh. *ahem*

It does feel good to channel energy through the body instead of going around with it in the mind, seemingly chasing one's tail like a puppy with tunnel vision, going in circles.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> Hmm. All this talk of 5 and 5 fixes and I am starting to see it in my partner, again...
> 
> I think I must see 5 through the lens of how I understand Ni (because of my experiences with my INTJ other half). Also, at times I read the 5 integrating to 8 descriptions as Ni seeking Se. Cognitive functions really do confuse things (and the fact that I understand best through experience).
> 
> Sometimes I wish intuition wasn't my inferior!


This kind of stuff is why I think I'm not a 5 at all, as I could come across as one just because I'm INTJ. I simply fail to relate to their issues to be honest, same for other withdrawn types which can be also confused with introversion (yep, no 4 nor 9 for me as core LOL)


----------



## Kintsugi

Mordred Phantom said:


> This kind of stuff is why I think I'm not a 5 at all, as I could come across as one just because I'm INTJ. I simply fail to relate to their issues to be honest, same for other withdrawn types which can be also confused with introversion (yep, no 4 nor 9 for me as core LOL)


I've considered all 3 "withdrawn" types for my partner at some point or other but after actually having interacted with Ni-types who _are _5s, 9s, and 4s...the differences are obvious. Also, he often get's mistyped as ENTJ which might have something to do with his more outward and "assertive" energy (but he's definitely an INTJ though, I'm certain of that).

Still not sure of his type but leaning heavily towards core 3w4 with possible 5 and 8 fixes.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> I've considered all 3 "withdrawn" types for my partner at some point or other but after actually having interacted with Ni-types who _are _5s, 9s, and 4s...the differences are obvious. Also, he often get's mistyped as ENTJ which might have something to do with his more outward and "assertive" energy (but he's definitely an INTJ though, I'm certain of that).
> 
> Still not sure of his type but leaning heavily towards core 3w4 with possible 5 and 8 fixes.


I've been on the same boat, being mistyped as ENTJ and XSFP, so that stuff probably shows that I can't be a withdrawn type if I could be mistaken as other types that share functions with INTJ. Also I retyped at 7 as reading the deeper stuff again and feeling less messed up I noticed that 1 is more of a disintegration line than core. Getting rid of parts of my meds also contributed to get a better idea lol


----------



## Kintsugi

Mordred Phantom said:


> I've been on the same boat, being mistyped as ENTJ and XSFP, so that stuff probably shows that I can't be a withdrawn type if I could be mistaken as other types that share functions with INTJ. Also I retyped at 7 as reading the deeper stuff again and feeling less messed up I noticed that 1 is more of a disintegration line than core. Getting rid of parts of my meds also contributed to get a better idea lol


I've always seen the frustration in you. 

I'm not a frustration core but I relate to that triad so much it's ridiculous. Hello, strong 7-wing and 4 and 1 fixes.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> I've always seen the frustration in you.
> 
> I'm not a frustration core but I relate to that triad so much it's ridiculous. Hello, strong 7-wing and 4 and 1 fixes.


I'm a frustrated lil shit, and despite being able to deal better with my issues I still would love to stomp some people for breaking me. Well, now I will troll them instead if they try to piss me off again. Now about fixes I need to recheck if 8 and 4 are still legit.


----------



## Kintsugi

Mordred Phantom said:


> I'm a frustrated lil shit, and despite being able to deal better with my issues I still would love to stomp some people for breaking me. Well, now I will troll them instead if they try to piss me off again. Now about fixes I need to recheck if 8 and 4 are still legit.


Maybe try posting an image collage on the Visual Typing thread? It's an interesting way of looking at type patterns I think. Seems more intuitive.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Perfect Storm said:


> Maybe try posting an image collage on the Visual Typing thread? It's an interesting way of looking at type patterns I think. Seems more intuitive.


I will try to do that, maybe use images of my favorite characters as that could give some clues too. Same for pictures that I find funny.


----------



## Kintsugi

Mordred Phantom said:


> I will try to do that, maybe use images of my favorite characters as that could give some clues too. Same for pictures that I find funny.


It took me _so long _to put mine together. I have so many saved images and was fretting over which ones to use. In the end I showed all of them to my partner and asked his opinion and he said that I should post them all because they all represent many of the different fragments (that are often contradictory) that make up my self-concept and world-view.

Apparently he "gets it".


----------



## narfae

Does anyone think I'm mistyped?


----------



## Animal

Hm. I'm typing at 5 fix now but I'm still too classy (or image-conscious) to put the n00b tritype in my signature.

Give me a few weeks.


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> tagging me in nonmafia threads :/
> 
> the main thing we noted there is that you have a similar vibe as moon, theo, etc.


It worked haha! Visor lives outside of Maia on perC!!!

Thanks though


----------



## sinaasappel

Actually @thissiteisterrible could you elaborate  I'm a little unsure about that!


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> Actually @thissiteisterrible could you elaborate  I'm a little unsure about that!


your attempts to get me to post outside mafia have been_ noted_.

Its mostly in the childlike, naive/innocence (strong terms, but you get my point i think) of your posts, that kind of vibe. Its the same kind of vibe in particular i get from moon and seeing how you approach situations.

I think you initially come across as E because you are really energetic and bouncy and that kind of stuff, and you give that impression, but I think on reflection seeing how you act on here and going from what i know of other I's i think thats probably a bad read.

the T and P parts are obvious to me at least.


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> your attempts to get me to post outside mafia have been_ noted_.
> 
> Its mostly in the childlike, naive/innocence (strong terms, but you get my point i think) of your posts, that kind of vibe. Its the same kind of vibe in particular i get from moon and seeing how you approach situations.
> 
> I think you initially come across as E because you are really energetic and bouncy and that kind of stuff, and you give that impression, but I think on reflection seeing how you act on here and going from what i know of other I's i think thats probably a bad read.
> 
> the T and P parts are obvious to me at least.


=3 villagery 

What is bothering you about S/N?


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> =3 villagery
> 
> What is bothering you about S/N?


i think N is more evident in the difference between our thought processes, especially from watching you play mafia 

but i don't think i am a good judge of it at all


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> i think N is more evident in the difference between our thought processes, especially from watching you play mafia
> 
> but i don't think i am a good judge of it at all


But why T>F


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> But why T>F


eh, i dunno i don't get the vibe of F like I do immediately from people like owner and Liza.

i operate on soulreads gia, can't explain it.

I do see some feeling based thingos in your post but i dont think its a dominant part of your personality, just the way you approach things

its probably closer than i give it credit for but i still think t over f


----------



## thissiteisterrible

i might double down on that read and go mild T over f, though I think its close

(the j and p are obvious to you i think)


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> eh, i dunno i don't get the vibe of F like I do immediately from people like owner and Liza.
> 
> i operate on soulreads gia, can't explain it.
> 
> I do see some feeling based thingos in your post but i dont think its a dominant part of your personality, just the way you approach things
> 
> its probably closer than i give it credit for but i still think t over f


It actually is a 60/40 split 55/45 at the closest




thissiteisterrible said:


> i might double down on that read and go mild T over f, though I think its close
> 
> (the j and p are obvious to you i think)


calling me lazy

Poxy bought up our play styles and specifically SPN... Do you have any thoughts on our play styles/personalities and how they may be similar/different?


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> It actually is a 60/40 split 55/45 at the closest


NL GOAT or NL GOAT



GIA Diamonds said:


> calling me lazy
> 
> Poxy bought up our play styles and specifically SPN... Do you have any thoughts on our play styles/personalities and how they may be similar/different?


hmm

both of you are P to me, (though i think polexia is closer to J than you)

I think polexia is more E than you, judging by her interactions

S/N, no thought, might lean S due to #reasons. 

for her T/f i got an f thought right away but i might be confusing that with an e

ESFP? for polexia? i dunno could be close for s/n and t/f, could easily be wrong on those

think e and p are right though, i don't really know polexia very well

i don't think that actually answered the question... lol. but i think its much easier for me to judge based on interactions over gameplay


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> NL GOAT or NL GOAT
> 
> 
> hmm
> 
> both of you are P to me, (though i think polexia is closer to J than you)
> 
> I think polexia is more E than you, judging by her interactions
> 
> S/N, no thought, might lean S due to #reasons.
> 
> for her T/f i got an f thought right away but i might be confusing that with an e
> 
> ESFP? for polexia? i dunno could be close for s/n and t/f, could easily be wrong on those
> 
> think e and p are right though, i don't really know polexia very well
> 
> i don't think that actually answered the question... lol. but i think its much easier for me to judge based on interactions over gameplay


<3

Thanks... But Esfp for poxy, Is an interesting thought¿ I just thought we were Both entps anyways, and the biggest argument against older entps and myself is that I'm a lot more childlike and I'm not serious enough which is also interesting....

and you did answer, it was wordy as hell though.... I'll stop mentioning you now XD (not really I might get my Tapatalk signature back btw)

But thank you, no further questions!


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> <3
> 
> Thanks... But Esfp for poxy, Is an interesting thought¿ I just thought we were Both entps anyways, and the biggest argument against older entps and myself is that I'm a lot more childlike and I'm not serious enough which is also interesting....
> 
> and you did answer, it was wordy as hell though.... I'll stop mentioning you now XD (not really I might get my Tapatalk signature back btw)
> 
> But thank you, no further questions!


ya i reflected in the shower and thought that i could easily be wrong, and that she could just be an entp

enfp would also work

pls no tapatalk

like i said i don't think i know polexia enough to make a sound judgement, its just vibes and impressions


----------



## thissiteisterrible

i also think there are enough differences between the two of you (IMO) that you are not both entp


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> i also think there are enough differences between the two of you (IMO) that you are not both entp


Could you list possible types for us two please


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> Could you list possible types for us two please


i stopped doing homework ages ago and here i am doing it again 

gia types:
possible but unlikely: entp
likely: intp
possible but wrong: enfp, infp

polexia types
enfp
esfp
entp
(i don't believe polexia is an estp at all)

i think


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> i stopped doing homework ages ago and here i am doing it again
> 
> gia types:
> possible but unlikely: entp
> likely: intp
> possible but wrong: enfp, infp
> 
> polexia types
> enfp
> esfp
> entp
> (i don't believe polexia is an estp at all)
> 
> i think


Thanks but infp?


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> Thanks but infp?


i don't agree with it really. just putting it in there as a potential combination as your e/i is probably close and your t/f is probably close


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> i don't agree with it really. just putting it in there as a potential combination as your e/i is probably close and your t/f is probably close


Interesting


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

GIA Diamonds said:


> It's funny that you bring that up >_> I was talking about this on Skype and @thissiteisterrible @Earthious and @Theobruh think I'm an Intp lean >_> I think they could help...
> 
> And I did enjoy playing with you in SPN


Hm, not quite, I don't think intp at all XD. I mean, it could fit, but I don't see anything to indicate as such over other types like ENTP.

I think ENTP fits well, but I may be biased, since that is what I see you go by. But yeah, I'd def type you as entp.

I do however, have questions about the 5 in your tritype, and would maaaybe suggest 7w6 (?), but I don't generally type ppl for reasons^^.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

thissiteisterrible said:


> tagging me in nonmafia threads :/
> 
> the main thing we noted there is that you have a similar vibe as moon, theo, etc.


I'm thinking that's the enneagram, really, and just ntp in general.

Gia, would you ever consider yourself as an introvert? And of course, that has nothing to do with being social or not.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

thissiteisterrible said:


> your attempts to get me to post outside mafia have been_ noted_.
> 
> Its mostly in the childlike, naive/innocence (strong terms, but you get my point i think) of your posts, that kind of vibe. Its the same kind of vibe in particular i get from moon and seeing how you approach situations.
> 
> I think you initially come across as E because you are really energetic and bouncy and that kind of stuff, and you give that impression, but I think on reflection seeing how you act on here and going from what i know of other I's i think thats probably a bad read.
> 
> the T and P parts are obvious to me at least.


And this is a true point as well. Not going to stick with any decision here about Gias tritype because 
1. I don't type ppl, and 
2. I've only been able to successfully for a total of about 7 hrs the past 2 nights ( 😅) and it's past the time I should be alseep by now,
But gia, what are you like in real life? E I is often harder to tell online, so I expecially like to let ppl decide that for themselves, but I'm curious in your description of I/E? (I'm asking because I know you often tend to lean E when ppl have stronger Nes, so it's just an area to check.)

However, I feel vibe wise, you are also kind of like @Lady Alette when it comes to EI, as in they appear more reserved (not quite the right word, but can't think right now) online but identify as E. 

I like stultums point about it being an age thing, and I completely agree there, that that's a factor, especially since most entp PerCers are usually at least 20+ here, agewise.


I still think you are entp, but it's up to you to make the final decision. Fit in with entp quite well as well imo.^^ at least comfort wise.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

As for poxy, I like entp...but again, don't take my reads as fact because I know I have confirmation biases with these sorts of things.

Poxy is not FiSe,just can't see it :tongue: I sense Fe for sure and agree it appears to be strong, but I see it mostly as a social thing, not like deep Fe opinions and such which ESFJs may have. Also definitely see strong enough Ti from Poxy, in general. 
It's hard for me to see Poxy as Ni/Se, can't explain it, but really don't think so.
So it's basically ENTP vs ESFJ, and she does seem P like in mafia for reasons I am too lazy to type out. Also, not enough Fe to be ESFJ imo, just nope! Ne s are there for sure. 

So I'm going to stick with entp ^^

The 3 tritype often makes ntps appear J-like, and I can tell you especially for myself, I score really close to p and j with how I act IRL (and most ppl usually guess J for me too :tongue: ) and a lot of those are 3 achievement sorts of attributes (+Si). But I am not an INTJ and definitely feel good with P .


Speaking of which, I'd be happy to discuss my own type. =D I think I've got it down, but I'd always welcome opinions and feedback for re-evaluation.

Type: INTP 9w1, 7w6, 3w4 sp/so


Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## Alette

I believe if someone is reserved that they aren't technically an introvert since other factors can cause them to be reserved. Also I want to know if my tritype seems correct. 

9w1 7w6 3w4


----------



## sinaasappel

Thanks earthious  (hehe I'm tired)



Earthious said:


> Hm, not quite, I don't think intp at all XD. I mean, it could fit, but I don't see anything to indicate as such over other types like ENTP.
> 
> I think ENTP fits well, but I may be biased, since that is what I see you go by. But yeah, I'd def type you as entp.
> 
> I do however, have questions about the 5 in your tritype, and would maaaybe suggest 7w6 (?), but I don't generally type ppl for reasons^^.


Maaaybe 379 or 397 I'm probably am a bit more 7-like than I think I am >_>
I also thought of 8 somewhere instead of 9



Earthious said:


> I'm thinking that's the enneagram, really, and just ntp in general.
> 
> Gia, would you ever consider yourself as an introvert? And of course, that has nothing to do with being social or not.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


I dunno...maybe when I was younger yes, but I still had less of a 'me' aspect it was more like two different people, if that makes sense. At school (outwardly) I appeared silent really nice and docile >_> 

and at home I was outspoken a troublemaker and bossy.
I chose my friends carefully and a few of them I've known for more than 6 years the longest is 14....

Now=flip flop my school and home and I guess I'm not a troublemaker at school 

Also arguing with authority is a HUGE issue for me at home 



Earthious said:


> And this is a true point as well. Not going to stick with any decision here about Gias tritype because
> 1. I don't type ppl, and
> 2. I've only been able to successfully for a total of about 7 hrs the past 2 nights ( ) and it's past the time I should be alseep by now,
> But gia, what are you like in real life? E I is often harder to tell online, so I expecially like to let ppl decide that for themselves, but I'm curious in your description of I/E? (I'm asking because I know you often tend to lean E when ppl have stronger Nes, so it's just an area to check.)
> 
> However, I feel vibe wise, you are also kind of like @Lady Alette when it comes to EI, as in they appear more reserved (not quite the right word, but can't think right now) online but identify as E.
> 
> I like stultums point about it being an age thing, and I completely agree there, that that's a factor, especially since most entp PerCers are usually at least 20+ here, agewise.
> 
> 
> I still think you are entp, but it's up to you to make the final decision. Fit in with entp quite well as well imo.^^ at least comfort wise.


As for I/E that was specifically for you XD your playstyle in Mafia imo is definitely more ne like, which is like bouncing around from one thing to another without a specific goal in mind, (which is more like a fly) but I will say you've gotten a lot more uniform lately. (Although I still need my swatter) when I watch you play its like

"omg slow down you're making me loose my train of thought!")

But yeah I play Mafia because I want to figure people out... 

Honestly I don't know how I really am irl which is my biggest downfall in Mafia; if you don't tell me how I'm acting, I don't know how I'm being perceived (of course I have a backup approach to this) (*cough* South Park)


(An example of this is polar bears V penguins)

... The most I hear is "Gia is nice." And I keep warning those same people that I'm not always sunny so watch what you say >_>. A lot of people have told me I am their role model, something I'm not to happy with honestly because I don't want everyone to think I am that person who never messes up and then as soon as I do wham! "Omg she didn't do this right" but yeah I have been told that I've helped a lot with my friends confidence. I'm always laughing or telling dirty jokes . But I act a lot more E than all of my friends (they're all introverts) so maybe that's where my confirmation bias stands >_>

As for N/S= I did at one point think si>ne but @Apple Pine would disagree XD 

Fe is tricky for me especially because there was a time where I was debating entp V esfj for myself but I mean  especially because I have this almost "I'll be nice give me all you know" type of thing going on... It's pretty much what theo was doing, feign innocence to get a reaction, granted I do genuinely like my friends and I do things to make them happy but sometimes.....

Ti is also trick for me because logic bias? It's kinda a Ti type thing and I don't have anyone who typed as entp irl for a side by side comparison....

Summary for those who think
tl;dr=a tired hot mess XD 

Does this make sense?


----------



## sinaasappel

Did I answer the questions fully XD


----------



## mangodelic psycho

@Polexia An ENTP 3 is going to be much more "J" like than a 7. You're very friendly, I don't know if there are actual people here that actually dislike you, and I cant imagine that, lol. ENTP 7w8s (aka typical entps) are much more hormonal :tongue:, moody and at times antisocial people*, and much more likely to show it. 3s don't have a reason to, unless it gets in their way I guess, they get along and get the job done, whatever the job is. You don't seem particularly Si and the Fe that @Drunk Parrot sees is the 3 "everyone loves me and I love everyone" vibe 

I think you have a pretty similar vibe with Tzara and Gia, although Tzara is a guy, so that brings at to the topic of _How functions manifest differently in different sexes of the same type_. ENTP women, and especially entp 3 women, who care a whole lot (way more than a 7) about keeping up an image, simply are not as dickish as their equivalent males can be. Especially when we're surrounded by Fe female types, we can seem pretty Fe. And let's not forget when we're unhappy and Si takes over and Ne goes for a vacation to Bali......

*I wanted to talk about this in some thread with @adultchildinvaders but.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

Oh, and I'm curious about my instinctual subtypes, I change my mind about them all the time. I think I'll stay with my initial typing, so/sx, but if yall think otherwise, feel free to comment. =)


----------



## sinaasappel

psychedelicmango said:


> Oh, and I'm curious about my instinctual subtypes, I change my mind about them all the time. I think I'll stay with my initial typing, so/sx, but if yall think otherwise, feel free to comment. =)


Mango =D


----------



## sinaasappel

Also I think I'd like to tag 
@lolthevoidlol @Dyslexicon
And @Clovdyx

I think they all have different opinions of me for better or worse void

And I would like @Grims opinion on this...


----------



## Pifanjr

I just want to mention first that I'm not very good at typing people, but the least I can do is give my own observations.



Polexia said:


> @daleks_exterminate @Pifanjr you know me pretty well. Wanna give thoughts? I'm confused now lol and hungover. :laughing:
> 
> Oh and @knife


I don't see you as ESFJ, I don't think you're an SJ type or Fe dom. I think you could be an ESTP though. 



Earthious said:


> Speaking of which, I'd be happy to discuss my own type. =D I think I've got it down, but I'd always welcome opinions and feedback for re-evaluation.
> 
> Type: INTP 9w1, 7w6, 3w4 sp/so


An INTP without 5 in their tritype just seems wrong to me :tongue:. I also can't remember seeing Ti in you. I agree that you probably use Ne.

I think INFP might fit you better.


----------



## 480

GIA Diamonds said:


> Also I think I'd like to tag
> @_lolthevoidlol_ @_Dyslexicon_
> And @_Clovdyx_
> 
> I think they all have different opinions of me for better or worse void
> 
> And I would like @_Grim_ s opinion on this...


About what madam?


----------



## Chris

GIA Diamonds said:


> Also I think I'd like to tag
> @lolthevoidlol @Dyslexicon
> And @Clovdyx
> 
> I think they all have different opinions of me for better or worse void
> 
> And I would like @Grims opinion on this...


I don't know and I don't care.


----------



## Polexia

Pifanjr said:


> I just want to mention first that I'm not very good at typing people, but the least I can do is give my own observations.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see you as ESFJ, I don't think you're an SJ type or Fe dom. I think you could be an ESTP though.
> 
> 
> 
> An INTP without 5 in their tritype just seems wrong to me :tongue:. I also can't remember seeing Ti in you. I agree that you probably use Ne.
> 
> I think INFP might fit you better.


Yeah. ESTP might be a possibility! 

Thanks for giving opinion <3 



Stultum said:


> Just butting in without reading the rest of the posts here (sorry.), and giving an armchair analysis of your personality that is probably not at all accurate (not sorry).
> 
> You and GIA are very different, and at least part of that is indeed age. Emotions don't cause you to panic anymore like they do GIA. (or, indeed, me. I'm seriously in love for the first time in my life right now, and it's both the best and worst thing that has ever happened to me.) You are also just different people. GIA jumps into a situation and figures out where to go from there, while you observe for a while and then get in - this means that you miss some early opportunities that GIA takes, but also that you can pick your battles better (or at least, that's what I see happening on the forum.)
> 
> I don't have a clue about enneagram. I'm listed as a 7w8 here, but honestly, it could be anything. I don't know how your enneagram influences your MBTI, but I can certainly see the Pe, Ti and Fe work in you. You observe, analyze, and act, while staying compassionate but not putting that first necessarily.


Thanks for the opinion on the matter sultum! I agree. Age is most def a factor and those are the things I noticed as well. 



Tzara said:


> To be honest I can see you as a J from a distant perspective. Especially if we consider your mafia behaviour.
> 
> But the wider the perspective gets, the more and more P you are than anything else.
> 
> Also, ESFJ would be the last possible type after your "spongebob socks and sandals phase" :laughing:
> 
> 
> Edit: Also I'm fairly annoyed by the "gently" part of this thread. I kinda want to repeat myself by saying we need a *violently brutal mistype revelation thread* since I took the time to post here :tongue:


Hahaha I mentioned the toe flops to someone yesterday. They said they couldn't understand why someone would wanna wear toe socks. I asked why they be hatin' and informed them that flip flops are so comfy with toe socks. XD 

I can see the comment about the J from a distance. I can see that as well! 

Thanks for weighing in :happy:


----------



## sinaasappel

Grim said:


> About what madam?


Polexia mentioned earlier that you commented on us possibly being mistyped in SPN. Do you have any notable similarities and/or differences and could you name possible alternative types please 



Clovdyx said:


> I don't know and I don't care.


Hahaaa get back here RAWR


----------



## 480

GIA Diamonds said:


> Polexia mentioned earlier that you commented on us possibly being mistyped in SPN. Do you have any notable similarities and/or differences and could you name possible alternative types please
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaaa get back here RAWR


I remember having a conversation about all the type 9s running around. But I don't recall anything specifically I said about you or @Polexia. 

Not saying I didn't... just that I don't recall. If one of you were saying type 9, I probably doubted that. 

If I said something else, remind me?


----------



## sinaasappel

Grim said:


> I remember having a conversation about all the type 9s running around. But I don't recall anything specifically I said about you or @Polexia.
> 
> Not saying I didn't... just that I don't recall. If one of you were saying type 9, I probably doubted that.
> 
> If I said something else, remind me?


I don't even remember XD


----------



## Polexia

Grim said:


> I remember having a conversation about all the type 9s running around. But I don't recall anything specifically I said about you or @Polexia.
> 
> Not saying I didn't... just that I don't recall. If one of you were saying type 9, I probably doubted that.
> 
> If I said something else, remind me?


Yeah, it think it was about that. I'm not a 9 though, but GIA had a different type at the time. Not sure if she was a 9.


----------



## sinaasappel

Polexia said:


> Yeah, it think it was about that. I'm not a 9 though, but GIA had a different type at the time. Not sure if she was a 9.


Nope I typed as a 5w6 earlier...


----------



## sinaasappel

And then I realized I was too much of a try hard to be a five lol


----------



## sinaasappel

But @Polexia I think entp is your type, I may be biased but it definitely shows in ego poxy  (I really enjoyed my 17 hour life span in that game as well) but I think it accurately portrays your 3w2 enneagram an I think it accurately portrays how an entp 3w2 would act, as well as the fact that @Tzara helped you design the game (another 3w2 entp iirc) (who's hiding behind an entj label XD)


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

pivot_turn said:


> lol I've probably found INTPs to be the most confusing to read and some ENTPs. It takes a bit time to get used to them.


Lol. I'd describe reading Ne (doms and auxes) is similar to riding a wave, lol. You just have to catch it, and then you can follow their thought process. Scums' thought process will be inconsistent, such as choppy, start strong then become stagnant and repetitive, etc. Towns' will be smooth and you can see ideas develop, go deeper, or lead build off of one another. 
(That doesn't mean consistent on what they say though XD, just the process behind that.)

Se is similar to that in a way as well, but more tangibly. 

I guess reading extroverted perceiving functions is a lot about flow and seeing how they perceive information, which extroverted makes it easier (though not necearily easy) to sense. 

Ni is already introverted, so that's hard to follow (for me) XD. There, it helps to look at their judging funcións. Te, I can do slightly better after exposure to their scum metas, and Fe I can't really do .

I think aux functions are a good place to look to in games. If first function doesn't work, scum usually do interedting things with their auxes, as that is harder to fake and (depending on the player), it becomes more noticable. Often, there would be too much of it, or it'd just appear really faked and unnatural. 

Other than that I personally find it so hard to read you XD 

Also, agree with the nine description. It becomes so annoying when you're trying to tear players apart, for multiple reasons XD.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> @Earthious I'd say 75% of people seem to fit their type, well, based on descriptions. I've known SJs that have surprised me, though. That's why functions are more important than generic dichotomies and type descriptions. I have an ESTJ friend who dichotomy wise is ESTP. But he's an alcoholic and not very motivated so the P is more sluggishness than Se. He's Te 8w9 but also has a strong 2w3 fix. He might actually be 2w3, but he disintegrates to 8w9, often. The point is that not everyone is easy to type, and Gia is a tough cookie.


thanks drunk parrot! I appreciate the help despite my :-/// 



Drunk Parrot said:


> Si perceives the past and adjusts their behavior to that. Gia might have grown up in a P like environment and she perceives herself as supposed to act like a P. Throw in high intelligence and there's a bias to be an N.


Heh actually I grew up in a J-environment. Lots of schedules and curfews and rules that needed to be followed...I've taken a huge issue to those things and it's bought up a bit of resentment but like you've said with si I eventually followed and integrated into the system for the most part... There are some things that I just can't do though and it takes me a while to adapt by using the past the one thing that my mother gets annoyed with me for is repeated mistakes stuff like "get all your stuff out the night before so you don't have to do it in the morning how many times do I have to tell you" not granted I love her to death but >_> it leads to arguments a lot

As for intelligence aww thanks <3 I've been slacking I'll admit but I have a 3.23 gpa which isn't good, but isn't bad either it's just average despite being in the top 10% (my report cards this year look tacky though XD)


----------



## orbit

Ah excuse me, but I would appreciate it if anyone would take the time to help me with my Enneagram? I made a topic


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Drunk Parrot said:


> @GIA Diamonds your constant thanks, liberal use of emojis, apologizing to me...so Fe. And again, at 18, it really shouldn't be this good, but your Fe is excellent. Mine is passable, but yours is effortless, because I think it's natural
> 
> Nothing wrong with being ESFJ.
> 
> Now, let's play a game where we conclude @Earthious is actually an ISFJ :tongue:


I've considered that XD 
I do feel like my Fe is high for an intp,but I will also say I am much more comfortable expressing it here rather than in real life. My Si is also very high, but I'm thinking that may be due to my Sp instinct 

I do think my Ti Ne beat those two any day though, haha. I'd say it comes out most in the form of a systematic framework, an idea which I can apply in different situations. If that makes sense. Maybe that is too abstract XD.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> @GIA Diamonds your constant thanks, liberal use of emojis, apologizing to me...so Fe. And again, at 18, it really shouldn't be this good, but your Fe is excellent. Mine is passable, but yours is effortless, because I think it's natural
> 
> Nothing wrong with being ESFJ.
> 
> Now, let's play a game where we conclude @Earthious is actually an ISFJ :tongue:


Just one bit picky thing with this I don't usually apologize  but yeah and I usually think because of mindmeld which I do a lot of

And earthious never in a million years XD just no not at all!




Earthious said:


> Lol. I'd describe reading Ne (doms and auxes) is similar to riding a wave, lol. You just have to catch it, and then you can follow their thought process. Scums' thought process will be inconsistent, such as choppy, start strong then become stagnant and repetitive, etc. Towns' will be smooth and you can see ideas develop, go deeper, or lead build off of one another.
> (That doesn't mean consistent on what they say though XD, just the process behind that.)
> 
> Se is similar to that in a way as well, but more tangibly.
> 
> I guess reading extroverted perceiving functions is a lot about flow and seeing how they perceive information, which extroverted makes it easier (though not necearily easy) to sense.
> 
> Ni is already introverted, so that's hard to follow (for me) XD. There, it helps to look at their judging funcións. Te, I can do slightly better after exposure to their scum metas, and Fe I can't really do .
> 
> I think aux functions are a good place to look to in games. If first function doesn't work, scum usually do interedting things with their auxes, as that is harder to fake and (depending on the player), it becomes more noticable. Often, there would be too much of it, or it'd just appear really faked and unnatural.
> 
> Other than that I personally find it so hard to read you XD
> 
> Also, agree with the nine description. It becomes so annoying when you're trying to tear players apart, for multiple reasons XD.


I'd describe aux ne like a fly

If Lissa had a type it would be a wave


----------



## sinaasappel

@braided pain come join us please


----------



## sinaasappel

Earthious said:


> I've considered that XD
> I do feel like my Fe is high for an intp,but I will also say I am much more comfortable expressing it here rather than in real life. My Si is also very high, but I'm thinking that may be due to my Sp instinct
> 
> I do think my Ti Ne beat those two any day though, haha. I'd say it comes out most in the form of a systematic framework, an idea which I can apply in different situations. If that makes sense. Maybe that is too abstract XD.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


The day you're an isfj is the day I'll be an intj XD your Ne is sooo strong


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

GIA Diamonds said:


> Just one bit picky thing with this I don't usually apologize  but yeah and I usually think because of mindmeld which I do a lot of
> 
> And earthious never in a million years XD just no not at all!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd describe aux ne like a fly
> 
> If Lissa had a type it would be a wave


According to @Theobruh, @Lissa2 is actually intp!


----------



## sinaasappel

Earthious said:


> According to @Theobruh, lissa is actually intp!


That is interesting but I think you and Lissa act completely different, Lissa I guess I could say seems more Se but that may be my bias because I ship her and Tsit or maybe it's just her avi hmm...


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

GIA Diamonds said:


> 1.That is interesting but I think you and Lissa act completely different, 2. Lissa I guess I could say seems more Se but that may be my bias because I ship her and Tsit or maybe it's just her avi hmm...


1. I agree! 
2. Lol 


Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## sinaasappel

Earthious said:


> 1. I agree!
> 2. Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


1. I could probably see infp if I squint my eyes and turn my head sideways

2. We need to make this happen


----------



## Theobruh

Lmao someone thinks GIA is ESFJ? Have you met an ESFJ? Do you know what they're like?
I don't actually think ESFJs are that great at using their Fe to charm and to welcome. The male ones I know tend to be a little stiff and formal ime, and don't actually like expressing the Fe all too often. I don't know any female ESFJs, but I think being Fe Si first makes them not as open and welcoming as Gia. Gia is super Ne, and also vibes similarly to both Mooni and me. I'm sure @thissiteisterrible has already said something to this effect.
Gia also seems to be energetic and quite friendly, but there's this air of detachment - friendliness to everyone but not being super close to anyone - that I think tertiary and inferior Fe have.

Lissa could be INTP because she plays Mafia in a very Ne way, and I think she has definite Fe. She comes to similar conclusions I do quite often, and I can follow her thought processes easily.


----------



## braided pain

GIA Diamonds said:


> @_braided pain_ come join us please


Bossy. 

Seriously, I know you mostly from mafia, which skews things, but the fact that you and I have never gotten into a Fe-Te clash makes me extremely skeptical of ESFJ. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## sinaasappel

Theobruh said:


> Lmao someone thinks GIA is ESFJ? Have you met an ESFJ? Do you know what they're like?
> I don't actually think ESFJs are that great at using their Fe to charm and to welcome. The male ones I know tend to be a little stiff and formal ime, and don't actually like expressing the Fe all too often. I don't know any female ESFJs, but I think being Fe Si first makes them not as open and welcoming as Gia. Gia is super Ne, and also vibes similarly to both Mooni and me. I'm sure @thissiteisterrible has already said something to this effect.
> Gia also seems to be energetic and quite friendly, but there's this air of detachment - friendliness to everyone but not being super close to anyone - that I think tertiary and inferior Fe have.
> 
> Lissa could be INTP because she plays Mafia in a very Ne way, and I think she has definite Fe. She comes to similar conclusions I do quite often, and I can follow her thought processes easily.


Thanks theo! I just had a thought that maybe Lissa is an Enfj?


----------



## FourLeafCloafer

For those interested: My thread is up!

(If you don't have time or don't feel like reading it all, read question 11: It's the most based in practice, and gives a good impression of what I'm like in stress situations)


----------



## Lizabeth

pivot_turn said:


> I could see both of you as ENTP I guess. But yeah I know you're kind of different, but I can also see similarities. Like you both come off as quite cheerful and fun loving in general and wanting to include everyone. I also think there is a sort of similarness in how you two communicate in for example mafia, at least how you get into a conversation. I don't know how to describe it exactly but I get a feeling that you both sort of just jump into a conversation and say your opinion and then maybe later expand on it. Not saying that you just dump your info there, because you can be quite light at the start too, but it's quite different from me for example. I think I usually come in much softer and also often sandwich things between other things and idk. I'm not even sure I know what I'm saying here... But yeah that kind of about similarities. But yeah later at least I'd say Gia comes off more like Earthious for example than Poxy.
> 
> 
> 
> lol Comparing this with @thissiteisterrible, Visor is such a PerCer. XD
> 
> 
> 
> Dyslexicon is at least one who is 9 as well and I think both Earthious and Alette already visited this thread within a couple of pages and said they were nines. Anyway I think both Dizzy and I have recognized something similar in how we communicate or how we understand each other. Not that we probably look that alike in for example our general mafia play styles, but there is some quality.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi! I'm here. We need @Lizabeth. I think she might have some thoughts too. I could sort of see ENFP too for maybe either of you Poxy and Gia. Liz might have thoughts on that. Though maybe that's the T that makes the sort of different kind of communication that I talked about before. Well I haven't really been that much outside mafia on the forums for a long time, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.


Haven't read the convo, but have heard a bit about it from poxy. 

Poxy is so Ne it hurts (so good! roud And she's in no way a sensor. She's also not an ENFP, but she's not typical for ENTPs as far as I'm concerned. She does have strong Fe, but when it's all in context I think Ne-Ti-Fe-Si makes the most sense for her. 

I've actually thought about this a lot - because at first I was trying to figure out why she was so different from other ENTPs i interacted with. I think part of it is maturity (not calling the rest of you immature, but she's older than most of the ENTPs in mafia). I also suspect she's got some 9 in her like Dizzy and Sonny. But I'm less up on enneagram. 

GIA, I really don't know well enough to say. And it's hard to really clearly type teenagers sometimes, I think. Ask me in another couple of years :tongue:


----------



## Parrot

Theobruh said:


> Lmao someone thinks GIA is ESFJ? Have you met an ESFJ? Do you know what they're like?


Do you know me? You're fault if not. I guarantee I've met 10 time more ESFJs than you have. They come in many different styles, just like INTPs do. Part of my theory is that Gia is not a typical "bell curve" ESFJ. She's much more of an outlier with Fe/Ne being her top functions. I think Fe comes first, and the Si is less apparent. If I could meet her in person, or see a video, I'd know pretty quickly.



> *I don't actually think ESFJs are that great at using their Fe to charm and to welcome. The male ones I know tend to be a little stiff and formal ime, and don't actually like expressing the Fe all too often.* I don't know any female ESFJs, but I think being Fe Si first makes them not as open and welcoming as Gia. Gia is super Ne, and also vibes similarly to both Mooni and me. I'm sure @thissiteisterrible has already said something to this effect.
> Gia also seems to be energetic and quite friendly, but there's this air of detachment - friendliness to everyone but not being super close to anyone - that I think tertiary and inferior Fe have.


I see no reason to trust in your ability to describe ESFJs. I'm guessing your experience is very limited.


----------



## Theobruh

GIA Diamonds said:


> Thanks theo! I just had a thought that maybe Lissa is an Enfj?


My second most likely option for her is IxFJ. 
For some reason, even though I see Ne, I think if she were IxFJ, she'd be INFJ, because whether she has Ne or Ni, it's higher up than Se or Si.


----------



## Lizabeth

Theobruh said:


> Lmao someone thinks GIA is ESFJ? Have you met an ESFJ? Do you know what they're like?
> I don't actually think ESFJs are that great at using their Fe to charm and to welcome. The male ones I know tend to be a little stiff and formal ime, and don't actually like expressing the Fe all too often. I don't know any female ESFJs, but I think being Fe Si first makes them not as open and welcoming as Gia. Gia is super Ne, and also vibes similarly to both Mooni and me. I'm sure @thissiteisterrible has already said something to this effect.
> Gia also seems to be energetic and quite friendly, but there's this air of detachment - friendliness to everyone but not being super close to anyone - that I think tertiary and inferior Fe have.
> 
> Lissa could be INTP because she plays Mafia in a very Ne way, and I think she has definite Fe. She comes to similar conclusions I do quite often, and I can follow her thought processes easily.


That's not really true. ESFJs can be incredibly charming and draw people in. I wonder if the ones you know are in your family? Because I think interacting with an ESFJ who is closely related to you and one who is not (or any SFJ for that matter) can often be too different experiences. 

That being said, when I consider GIA in the context of your thoughts, I doubt that GIA is ESFJ.


----------



## Lizabeth

And lol @pivot_turn about the comparison between @thissiteisterrible and @Clovdyx's responses :laughing:


----------



## braided pain

GIA Diamonds said:


> But when are you ever rude? I mean in South Park I was extremely scum reading you after you lead the lynch on pozzai which was so blatantly obvious that he was town later on -.- and then you were like "I'm not defending my actions" and I was like "oh damn mindwreckd"


see? you didn't think I should have apologized, or taken the group feelings into consideration, or adjusted my tone to make people more comfortable.


----------



## Theobruh

Drunk Parrot said:


> *Puts on gloves*
> Don't take this personally, bruh :wink:
> 
> 
> Yes, which is why Gia is Fe over Ne, like I've said. She probably doesn't know what her own Si is like.
> 
> 
> 
> I study every person I meet, like a scientist observing monkeys. You saying that you don't, except obvious caricatures, proves you have little experience in typing people beyond your 101 understanding. This here, is the big leagues.
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous claim. Fe dom/aux is obviously more charming and friendly.


I think that there's some amount of personal bias on both sides (irt you liking dom and aux Fe...pls no *shakes in boots*).

I'd recommend interacting with Gia on a daily basis, maybe. Not via PMS, but something more instantaneous and more difficult to plan out.

I don't really think it's that important to categorize everyone you meet based on type. I think it's degrading, even. That's why I only think about people who are super obvious to me irt MBTI, or only if people ask me to think about it. 

Why do you think ESFJ will fit Gia more? What do you think changing her type will do for her? Could it be that as an ENTP you refuse to accept her because she doesn't fit your idea of what an ENTP is like?

If there are non garden variety ESFJs, and you think Gia is one of them, who presumably doesn't know what her own Si is like (her inferior function if ENTP), does it not make more sense for her to be a normal ENTP who doesn't understand Si because it's her inferior function? 

I apologize if I came off as rude when I questioned your lack of experience with ESFJs, but lol. I guess I couldn't understand how you see so much Si in Gia, and completely bypass her Ne, if you claim to know her well. I'd also recommend reading a little of her Mafia games to gain insight into her thought process.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> *Puts on gloves*
> Don't take this personally, bruh :wink:
> 
> 
> Yes, which is why Gia is Fe over Ne, like I've said. She probably doesn't know what her own Si is like.
> 
> 
> 
> I study every person I meet, like a scientist observing monkeys. You saying that you don't, except obvious caricatures, proves you have little experience in typing people beyond your 101 understanding. This here, is the big leagues.
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous claim. Fe dom/aux is obviously more charming and friendly.


I don't know what my si looks like but I feel like I should if I were to be an esfj 
Especially now since I am a teen and ne shouldn't be as apparent to me especially when I'm nervous I should probably go nuts in a sense but...



Theobruh said:


> Hmm...
> 
> Eh... I don't quite get how quirky is really definitive of much irt personality types.
> 
> Can see socially breezy as being more Fe, though.


Think of a bubbles life span that should help not saying that act has the attention span of a bubble, or you could think of it like hot-potato since Ni users tend to hot potato a bit, which throws me off... And yeah I thing breezy is what separates Dom and aux Fe users 



Drunk Parrot said:


> As usual, you provide excellent Fe judgment of situations.


But she's not ever??? and she's usually Te-ing the hell out of us XD so she's not too difficult to read


----------



## Theobruh

Lizabeth said:


> Honestly, Theo - I think this fits the Fe-Te clash that braided was talking about. I don't shut down the conversation because I think it will get messy. I shut down the conversation because I know it won't progress and we'll both end up frustrated.


But it's fun for me :computer:

You know that, right?

I'm on mobile so I hope the right emote shows up.


----------



## Lizabeth

Actually, as I follow this conversation, the more I think that ENTP fits for @GIA Diamonds. 

There you go GIA! Clarity :kitteh: 

I do think that young NTPs present quite differently from older NTPs. And then there's enneagram and all that. So those are my thoughts


----------



## Theobruh

Well, actually, @thissiteisterrible and I think Gia could be an INTP, but we agreed on definite xNTP.


----------



## Lizabeth

Theobruh said:


> But it's fun for me :computer:
> 
> You know that, right?


I love you theo, but whether or not it's fun for you isn't really my concern. I don't enjoy pointless arguments. I enjoy engaging in arguments and debates where I feel like there's the potential for progression that involves evolving viewpoints on both sides. Answering the same questions over and over again with no progression just makes me want to jump off a cliff. So whether or not you enjoy it, it's not how I choose to spend my free time.


----------



## sinaasappel

Lizabeth said:


> Honestly, Theo - I think this fits the Fe-Te clash that braided was talking about. I don't shut down the conversation because I think it will get messy. I shut down the conversation because I know it won't progress and we'll both end up frustrated.


Yeah... All the WIFOM



braided pain said:


> see? you didn't think I should have apologized, or taken the group feelings into consideration, or adjusted my tone to make people more comfortable.


Oh damn XD but I mean ego poxy was a game where it wen too far, though I wouldn't have asked them to apologize I would've just yelled at them and told them to tie a chill pill 


Theobruh said:


> I think that there's some amount of personal bias on both sides (irt you liking dom and aux Fe...pls no *shakes in boots*).
> 
> I'd recommend interacting with Gia on a daily basis, maybe. Not via PMS, but something more instantaneous and more difficult to plan out.
> 
> I don't really think it's that important to categorize everyone you meet based on type. I think it's degrading, even. That's why I only think about people who are super obvious to me irt MBTI, or only if people ask me to think about it.
> 
> Why do you think ESFJ will fit Gia more? What do you think changing her type will do for her? Could it be that as an ENTP you refuse to accept her because she doesn't fit your idea of what an ENTP is like?
> 
> If there are non garden variety ESFJs, and you think Gia is one of them, who presumably doesn't know what her own Si is like (her inferior function if ENTP), does it not make more sense for her to be a normal ENTP who doesn't understand Si because it's her inferior function?
> 
> I apologize if I came off as rude when I questioned your lack of experience with ESFJs, but lol. I guess I couldn't understand how you see so much Si in Gia, and completely bypass her Ne, if you claim to know her well. I'd also recommend reading a little of her Mafia games to gain insight into her thought process.


oh no all of the D2 lynches because I wanted to keep my mouth shut 
But yeah as I've played more Mafia I began to ne/ti more instead of durp



Lizabeth said:


> Actually, as I follow this conversation, the more I think that ENTP fits for @GIA Diamonds.
> 
> There you go GIA! Clarity :kitteh:
> 
> I do think that young NTPs present quite differently from older NTPs. And then there's enneagram and all that. So those are my thoughts


Thanks Liz! But step int DPs shoes what do you see as far as my Fe/si?


----------



## pivot_turn

Lizabeth said:


> Haven't read the convo, but have heard a bit about it from poxy.
> 
> Poxy is so Ne it hurts (so good! roud And she's in no way a sensor. She's also not an ENFP, but she's not typical for ENTPs as far as I'm concerned. She does have strong Fe, but when it's all in context I think Ne-Ti-Fe-Si makes the most sense for her.
> 
> I've actually thought about this a lot - because at first I was trying to figure out why she was so different from other ENTPs i interacted with. I think part of it is maturity (not calling the rest of you immature, but she's older than most of the ENTPs in mafia). I also suspect she's got some 9 in her like Dizzy and Sonny. But I'm less up on enneagram.
> 
> GIA, I really don't know well enough to say. And it's hard to really clearly type teenagers sometimes, I think. Ask me in another couple of years :tongue:


Haha I think I missed the beginning of the convo too. Didn't go that far back in the thread. 

And yeah could be the maturity that makes the Fe more noticeable for Poxy. Isn't the third and fourth function supposed to be more developed a bit later anyway. And that might also make her sometimes look a bit more nineish in enneagram, like I think I sometimes look more Fe because of social 9, and anyway it's my first shadow function, so I think that has some impact too.



GIA Diamonds said:


> Infj could actually work especially because of the Ni thing but then I'd have too look at her and @Veggie and veggie seems a lot more airy and Lissa more watery which is closer to act who is bubbly I think cause I mean bubbles have air and water in them XD


I love this! XD



GIA Diamonds said:


> I need to see this XD come back to Mafia


No. I mean yes she should come back, but no conflicts and clashes please. 


Also wasn't this thread supposed to be more enneagram btw. *talks more about enneagram* 5, 6, 7 and wings and tritypes and stuff.


----------



## Theobruh

Lol it was supposed to be about enneagram?

Okay, why am I here xD

Ummm, I can't promise no conflicts or clashes, especially if I know which buttons to push, but I'll try to play nice.

Think I agree with the maturity of Fe that comes along with age, pivot. Being a 9 helps with that, perhaps.


----------



## Parrot

Theobruh said:


> I'd recommend interacting with Gia on a daily basis, maybe. Not via PMS, but something more instantaneous and more difficult to plan out.


I don't do Mafia, here, but I've known her on PerC, for awhile.



> I don't really think it's that important to categorize everyone you meet based on type. I think it's degrading, even. That's why I only think about people who are super obvious to me irt MBTI, or only if people ask me to think about it.


It's how I am. I seek to understand people more than relate to them. I relate to them, experimentally, but I do so while studying them.



> Why do you think ESFJ will fit Gia more? What do you think changing her type will do for her? Could it be that as an ENTP you refuse to accept her because she doesn't fit your idea of what an ENTP is like?
> If there are non garden variety ESFJs, and you think Gia is one of them, who presumably doesn't know what her own Si is like (her inferior function if ENTP), does it not make more sense for her to be a normal ENTP who doesn't understand Si because it's her inferior function?


I care because I want to be accurate. She doesn't have to do anything. I see ESFJ because she's very comfortable with Fe and I don't think her Ne is that impressive, and I really don't see a lot of Ti analysis. Si is more subtle but she reminds me of many fun, social, bubbly girls I've known. ESFJs that appear "P" socially, but that's because Fe is adapting to the situation. Fe doms aren't all bossy; instead many are flexible and non-confrontational.



> I apologize if I came off as rude when I questioned your lack of experience with ESFJs, but lol. I guess I couldn't understand how you see so much Si in Gia, and completely bypass her Ne, if you claim to know her well. I'd also recommend reading a little of her Mafia games to gain insight into her thought process.


I've played mafia, in real life, using playing cards, around a camp fire, etc. Fe doms are scary good and Fe can be quite creative with manipulation. I study them, because my friends usually have me be the narrator, so I know who's mafia and who isn't. I've found that extroverts tend to play it better as our functions make it easier to persuade.


----------



## Lizabeth

GIA Diamonds said:


> Yeah... All the WIFOM
> 
> 
> 
> Oh damn XD but I mean ego poxy was a game where it wen too far, though I wouldn't have asked them to apologize I would've just yelled at them and told them to tie a chill pill
> 
> 
> oh no all of the D2 lynches because I wanted to keep my mouth shut
> But yeah as I've played more Mafia I began to ne/ti more instead of durp
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Liz! But step int DPs shoes what do you see as far as my Fe/si?


Here's the thing. You could have strong Fe (which I think you do) but that doesn't make you an Fe dom. A lot of people on first meeting me (not after they get to know me though ) mistake me for being a T type because they pick up on my Te-focus in the way that I approach certain things. But no one who knows me well would ever accuse me of being an NTJ, I don't think  

As I've gotten older, I've also noticed that my Si tendencies have become quite strong. But the way I use Si and the way my ISFJ mother uses Si are two completely different things. 

I prefer to look at the whole of a person rather than getting bogged down by "oh, but you have such strong X, so you can't be X-inferior". I think it all depends on how the totality develops. So yeah, I don't really see that as a factor. You can still be an ENTP and have strong Fe.


----------



## Theobruh

Phone's dying and I gotta go write a paper/do human things like eat.

We can continue the convo if you want on ***pe. Gia, just add Drunk Parrot if you want, and Liz.

More convenient imo anyway.


----------



## Lizabeth

Drunk Parrot said:


> I don't do Mafia, here, but I've known her on PerC, for awhile.
> 
> 
> It's how I am. I seek to understand people more than relate to them. I relate to them, experimentally, but I do so while studying them.
> 
> 
> I care because I want to be accurate. She doesn't have to do anything. I see ESFJ because she's very comfortable with Fe and I don't think her Ne is that impressive, and I really don't see a lot of Ti analysis. Si is more subtle but she reminds me of many fun, social, bubbly girls I've known. ESFJs that appear "P" socially, but that's because Fe is adapting to the situation. Fe doms aren't all bossy; instead many are flexible and non-confrontational.
> 
> 
> I've played mafia, in real life, using playing cards, around a camp fire, etc. Fe doms are scary good and Fe can be quite creative with manipulation. I study them, because my friends usually have me be the narrator, so I know who's mafia and who isn't. I've found that extroverts tend to play it better as our functions make it easier to persuade.


heh, well no doubting you're an ENTP with that self description :tongue:

But you're definitely a different type of ENTP to GIA and Poxy. And I sense some 5 in that description too. 

But meh, enneagram ain't my speciality so *shrugs*


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> I don't do Mafia, here, but I've known her on PerC, for awhile.
> 
> 
> It's how I am. I seek to understand people more than relate to them. I relate to them, experimentally, but I do so while studying them.
> 
> 
> I care because I want to be accurate. She doesn't have to do anything. I see ESFJ because she's very comfortable with Fe and I don't think her Ne is that impressive, and I really don't see a lot of Ti analysis. Si is more subtle but she reminds me of many fun, social, bubbly girls I've known. ESFJs that appear "P" socially, but that's because Fe is adapting to the situation. Fe doms aren't all bossy; instead many are flexible and non-confrontational.
> 
> 
> I've played mafia, in real life, using playing cards, around a camp fire, etc. Fe doms are scary good and Fe can be quite creative with manipulation. I study them, because my friends usually have me be the narrator, so I know who's mafia and who isn't. I've found that extroverts tend to play it better as our functions make it easier to persuade.


Yeah you've known me for a while 

As for the second part do you know I'm taking a survey of all of my friends personality types? For the understanding>relating but I do eventually want to relate to them they are interesting and my friends after all >_>

I'm not gonna lie I kick ass at werewolf irl XD 

And I'm a lot more passive now



Lizabeth said:


> Here's the thing. You could have strong Fe (which I think you do) but that doesn't make you an Fi dom. A lot of people on first meeting me (not after they get to know me though ) mistake me for being a T type because they pick up on my Te-focus in the way that I approach certain things. But no one who knows me well would ever accuse me of being an NTJ, I don't think
> 
> As I've gotten older, I've also noticed that my Si tendencies have become quite strong. But the way I use Si and the way my ISFJ mother uses Si are two completely different things.
> 
> I prefer to look at the whole of a person rather than getting bogged down by "oh, but you have such strong X, so you can't be X-inferior". I think it all depends on how the totality develops. So yeah, I don't really see that as a factor. You can still be an ENTP and have strong Fe.


Interesting


----------



## Parrot

Lizabeth said:


> heh, well no doubting you're an ENTP with that self description :tongue:
> 
> But you're definitely a different type of ENTP to GIA and Poxy. And I sense some 5 in that description too.
> 
> But meh, enneagram ain't my speciality so *shrugs*


I'm a 7w8, but topics like these bring out 5 qualities in me...which is healthy, at least. :happy:

Which is why I like to do them, so much.

I had a hunch about @Polexia and I let her prove the hunch wrong. ENTP, she is. @GIA Diamonds has not done well in proving Ne/Ti, to me, which is why I'm more adamant on Fe dom.

I think it was you saying teens are hard to type. IME, the older someone is, the harder they can be to type. It's the reason why certain people like Louis CK (ENFP 6w7 imo) and Stephen Colbert (ENTP 7w6 imo) are so hard to type because they're mature and show many different qualities.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Theobruh said:


> Lmao someone thinks GIA is ESFJ? Have you met an ESFJ? Do you know what they're like?


What's the point of responding like this?

(I mean, I have an idea of why people tend to do this kind of thing, but it strikes me as a cheap tactic so I want to bring attention to it =P)


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'm a 7w8, but topics like these bring out 5 qualities in me...which is healthy, at least. :happy:
> 
> Which is why I like to do them, so much.
> 
> I had a hunch about @Polexia and I let her prove the hunch wrong. ENTP, she is.* @GIA Diamonds has not done well in proving Ne/Ti, to me, which is why I'm more adamant on Fe dom.*
> 
> I think it was you saying teens are hard to type. IME, the older someone is, the harder they can be to type. It's the reason why certain people like Louis CK (ENFP 6w7 imo) and Stephen Colbert (ENTP 7w6 imo) are so hard to type because they're mature and show many different qualities.


Omg stop and go read my Mafia games now XD XD XD XD XD especially because of the bold 

And yeah :ninja:


----------



## sinaasappel

Distortions said:


> What's the point of responding like this?
> 
> (I mean, I have an idea of why people tend to do this kind of thing, but it strikes me as a cheap tactic so I want to bring attention to it =P)


What do you think?



GIA Diamonds said:


> Omg stop and go read my Mafia games now XD XD XD XD XD especially because of the bold
> 
> And yeah :ninja:


Also @Dunk parrot I'm just as stubborn as you are  I have all day and night!


----------



## Theobruh

Distortions said:


> What's the point of responding like this?
> 
> (I mean, I have an idea of why people tend to do this kind of thing, but it strikes me as a cheap tactic so I want to bring attention to it =P)


There's not really a point. I guess it might sound kind of rude, but when things are obvious, I don't really see too much of a merit in rehashing points if they've already been said. 

It's more of a reaction to how obvious something is, I guess. 

I think that trying to examine responses in a thread that has very little incentive to be analytical for Gia is a bit silly, so reading an analytical game like mafia in which she has to be logical or be lynched may really help with that. @Drunk Parrot.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> And you are...
> 
> Not on my radar
> 
> 
> 
> Provide me links. You're the one on trial, here.
> 
> 
> 
> Am I wearing you down? An ENTP is going to be energized by this type of convo. An inferior Ti user will get worn out, because debate leads to conflict. Fe wants to be in agreement. Seems like you're running low on energy.


You're making me want to strangle you is that what you like parrot? I argue I don't debate I've already said that. I have all day and all night.


----------



## sinaasappel

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Haha.
> I've been typed all over the place recently. INTJ, INFJ, ENTJ, ENTP, ESTP, ISTP. It's interesting! People must sense an Ni-Se axis and then aren't sure where to go from there. Probably an aggression and/or 'dark palette' skews towards Se being prominent. It's interesting.



You infj lol


----------



## sinaasappel

How many pages are we post whoring lol


----------



## Lizabeth

GIA Diamonds said:


> Also congrats you found my fluff stage now go find more important quotes


Gia, why are you so preoccupied with this?


----------



## sinaasappel

Lizabeth said:


> Gia, why are you so preoccupied with this?


I'm done I'm watching YouTube now actually


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Haha.
> I've been typed all over the place recently. NTJ, STP and even INFJ. It's interesting! People must sense an Ni-Se axis and then aren't sure where to go from there. Probably an aggression and/or 'dark palette' skews towards Se being prominent.


I've always thought INTJ. Enneatype, no clue for you haha?



GIA Diamonds said:


> You're making me want to strangle you is that what you like parrot? I argue I don't debate I've already said that. I have all day and all night.


An ENTP isn't going to get flustered. They'll rise up and punch right back. Are you escaping to Youtube to satisfy your Si needs?


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> I've always thought INTJ. Enneatype, no clue for you haha?
> 
> 
> 
> An ENTP isn't going to get flustered. They'll rise up and punch right back. Are you escaping to Youtube to satisfy your Si needs?


Yeah!


----------



## Parrot

GIA Diamonds said:


> Yeah!


Also, 3w4 will look more Te/Fi as opposed to 3w2 looking more Fe.

What videos are you watching. Cute dog videos? Or cats jumping off counters. Or silly jokes that anyone can think of?

So what turns you off about ESFJ? Will you feel dumb knowing that you wasted time in typing yourself? Is there a video of you talking somewhere. Seeing you irl, would help solve this issue.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> Also, 3w4 will look more Te/Fi as opposed to 3w2 looking more Fe.
> 
> What videos are you watching. Cute dog videos? Or cats jumping off counters. Or silly jokes that anyone can think of?
> 
> So what turns you off about ESFJ? Will you feel dumb knowing that you wasted time in typing yourself? Is there a video of you talking somewhere. Seeing you irl, would help solve this issue.


No watching cinema sins and I've actually considered esfj for a while now but I've made my decision. And I don't do videos....


----------



## Parrot

GIA Diamonds said:


> No watching cinema sins and I've actually considered esfj for a while now but I've made my decision. And I don't do videos....


Just throwing the videos out there. And since when is your type a decision made based on what you're comfortable with? Sounds like the type of logic a feeler would use.

I'm using classic ENTP strategy to pick you apart. Your walls are crumbling and I've outflanked you.

http://personalitycafe.com/intp-forum-thinkers/830746-ti-warfare-debate-battlefield.html


----------



## thissiteisterrible

gia

you are istp

admit it

give in to your fear


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> Just throwing the videos out there. And since when is your type a decision made based on what you're comfortable with? Sounds like the type of logic a feeler would use.
> 
> I'm using classic ENTP strategy to pick you apart. Your walls are crumbling and I've outflanked you.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/intp-forum-thinkers/830746-ti-warfare-debate-battlefield.html


Okay


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> gia
> 
> you are istp
> 
> admit it
> 
> give in to your fear


Omg  noooooo XD


----------



## Parrot

GIA Diamonds said:


> Okay


Glad to know I've won, as expected

Now, if you don't mind, your fellow ESFJs would like to meet you: http://personalitycafe.com/esfj-forum-caregivers/830242-get-know-your-fellow-esfjs.html


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> Glad to know I've won, as expected
> 
> Now, if you don't mind, your fellow ESFJs would like to meet you: http://personalitycafe.com/esfj-forum-caregivers/830242-get-know-your-fellow-esfjs.html


XD Afe you trying to get me to argue some more?


----------



## Parrot

GIA Diamonds said:


> XD Afe you trying to get me to argue some more?


I won the argument so of course not :happy:


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> I won the argument so of course not :happy:


Consider it a stalemate -_-


----------



## Parrot

I can't change your profile on my own.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

daleks_exterminate said:


> Mafia has always seemed much more te than ti tbh


*Summons @Yasuo * ^_^


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Drunk Parrot said:


> You asked for it...
> 
> From this game.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/829962-micro-mafia-xiii-bomberman-mafia-win.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about these was Ne? Especially since Fe has a habit of just repeating popular things they've heard.
> 
> I will dissect you and reveal your Fe insides to the world if I must.
> 
> Consider this. Your profile says ENTP. So everyone reading your words just assumes they're from an ENTP and convinces themselves of such. That's called confirmation bias. Thankfully, you have a friend like me gutting you for the truth haha.


These seem more Ne Fe than Fe Ne. 
Actually it seems exactly Ne Fe expresión lol.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## Parrot

Earthious said:


> These seem more Ne Fe than Fe Ne.
> Actually it seems exactly Ne Fe expresión lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T because I'm an ISFJ


Great analysis from an ISFJ :tongue:

Ok, Gia can be whatever she wants. Unless I met her in person, there's no real way to tell.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@Drunk Parrot socionics wise is easy to mistake activity pairs thanks to overestimating their skill at using their hidden agenda, so an ESFJ takes their Fe for granted and may think that their Ne is their default mode of working. Maybe this is what you're seeing.


----------



## Parrot

Mordred Phantom said:


> @Drunk Parrot socionics wise is easy to mistake activity pairs thanks to overestimating their skill at using their hidden agenda, so an ESFJ takes their Fe for granted and may think that their Ne is their default mode of working. Maybe this is what you're seeing.


Haha, it is exactly what I'm seeing, just like I used to think my Fe was great (Before I even knew what Fe was). Now, I know it's just alright, and that's actively working on it.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Drunk Parrot said:


> Haha, it is exactly what I'm seeing, just like I used to think my Fe was great (Before I even knew what Fe was). Now, I know it's just alright, and that's actively working on it.


I didn't read GIA's threads, but the few examples that were posted were mostly emotional loaded, so dunno how that can sound remotely Ne. From what I know, ENTPs dissect ideas and love to play devil's advocate for testing their arguments thanks to their Ti, while this is exhausting for ESFJs as they're forced to use their inferior, which they would prefer to get help with from an INTP. This is like when I rely more on Se, I only can sustain that kind of focus during a short time.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

Earthious said:


> *Summons @_Yasuo_ * ^_^


No problem, but then please add the next quote which explains the thought process as to why. 
It also mentions that Ti users can be quite good at Mafia....


----------



## daleks_exterminate

@Earthious 
@Yasuo -I'm not really sure who you were, but you were summoned because of something I said. 
This was the post I wrote expanding on why I think Mafia is more Te than Ti. http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...stype-revelation-thread-162.html#post27944593

if you disagree or see something I don't, I'd like to know why or to see your perspective.


----------



## Kisshoten

daleks_exterminate said:


> @_Earthious_
> @_Yasuo_ -I'm not really sure who you were, but you were summoned because of something I said.
> This was the post I wrote expanding on why I think Mafia is more Te than Ti. http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...stype-revelation-thread-162.html#post27944593
> 
> if you disagree or see something I don't, I'd like to know why or to see your perspective.


I iz Vergil of de mafias of de PerCies. 

You might remember me from theme games such as Titanomachy, Cthulhu Mythos and most recently, South Park. 

*crickets chirp*

Thank you.. :crying:



daleks_exterminate said:


> But does it?
> 
> i mean honestly, I remember asking Belli how he did it because it took me forever to really figure it out, but I am usually really ridiculously good at strategy games. He said that it took him awhile to be a decent player.
> 
> I I see this from a lot of Ntps. *Sure, they can learn what to do and how to do it and even be really good at it, BUT enfps and infps are able to pick it up, on average, much faster. *
> 
> Why is that?
> *
> My honest specualtion is that Ti doms may have an easier time as ti is first. *
> 
> After that, entps are going to have a shit ton of Ne looking at all this information that can be hard to zoom in on, they have Ti that will notice patterns and inconsistenties and after awhile learn how to make reads. The problem though is that they'll have trouble expressing those reads as entps would express themselves not by Ne or even Ti, but Fe.
> 
> Enfps wouid bring in information through Ne, filter it through Fi and then express it through Te.
> 
> Te is going to appear to be more logical than Fe....more confident.
> 
> ti cares about accuracy. It will want everything accurate and perfect. Te cares about efficientcy. It will want things to work efficiently, and so it needs a solution that works. The problem is that Te often doesn't find the most accurate solution, where Ti will but it may not implement that solution, and it takes much longer to find the best solution than it does to find a solution (although not in the long run as Te probably won't consider the chain of events that will happen if it does something and all the things that will need to be patched from that solution and I think Ti will....)
> 
> 
> *Entps do have the benefit of being more wild cards and difficult to read for others. *
> 
> 
> But I still think mafia is a Te game, even if Ti users can learn how to play it. The intjs Dominate that shit. I think there's a reason....
> 
> @_Pifanjr_ and I were just discussing this. Lol


I'm having deja vu. I feel like I've discussed this before... >.< with @Earthious. Have I discussed this before with you? 

Anyway... I agree with the idea that mafia is more Te than Ti. I'll bold the stuff I agree with (mostly because I have observed similar stuff). Stuff I disagree with are in red.

I'm not the best at MBTI and that is probably why I disagree with your point on how types express themselves. For instance, when I play mafia I don't think I engage in Fe too much beyond being cordial (in my own, twisted way ), not necessarily as being warm and effusive, but as being respectful to the extent that I don't make personal attacks. Doesn't always work, but I try. 

I would like to think that my posts are mostly Ti takes at reducing the no. of possible explanations Ne generates which rely to some degree on Si (meta; plus feeling states induced at the time of reading posts). The influence of Si is something I noticed very late.. (during my SP game, I think). Why I have a hard time is because I suck at cataloging data, which is what I consider the making of ISO's of players' posts to be. 

I imagined mafia was about finding patterns and inconsistencies and while that is still true, the thing I didn't consider when I started playing mafia, and it seems to be a style of playing that has grown since I started, is that people adopt the strategy of spreading a lot of information (fluff posts, or just posting a lot) making it difficult for someone like me to sift through all the stuff. So, essentially, Mafia is taking in this huge volume of data and basically comparing each piece of data to another piece and eventually to a standard for mindset which helps form a better idea about player alignment. I see this act of having to sift through large amounts of information to be incredibly tiresome, especially because I am not inclined to be meticulous about keeping track of who said what and what time. This is where Ti clashes with what I perceive to be a task requiring some kind of Te-esque approach. 

The other problem is Ne-Ti is a wifom generator and wifom fucks it up. Ne-Ti is better at creating rather than eliminating possibilities because of Ne dominance. 

I imagine a Te-Si or Te-Ni approach wouldn't really struggle because juggling possibilities is easier because they adopt the 'compare to standard to test for fit' approach more readily. 

idk...just my theory...


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

daleks_exterminate said:


> No problem, but then please add the next quote which explains the thought process as to why.
> It also mentions that Ti users can be quite good at Mafia....


Ver gil beat me to it, but I once conversed with her about this topic, and she agrees that mafia is more Te^^

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Yasuo said:


> I'm having deja vu. I feel like I've discussed this before... >.< with @Earthious. Have I discussed this before with you?


Yes!


Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## daleks_exterminate

Yasuo said:


> I iz Vergil of de mafias of de PerCies.
> 
> You might remember me from theme games such as Titanomachy, Cthulhu Mythos and most recently, South Park.
> 
> *crickets chirp*
> 
> Thank you.. :crying:


oooooh! Of course I remember you! The name change threw me off. 




> I'm having deja vu. I feel like I've discussed this before... >.< with @_Earthious_. Have I discussed this before with you?


that is funny. ^^ also, we have not. I think I've only discussed it with Pif. 



> Anyway... I agree with the idea that mafia is more Te than Ti. I'll bold the stuff I agree with (mostly because I have observed similar stuff). Stuff I disagree with are in red.
> 
> I'm not the best at MBTI and that is probably why I disagree with your point on how types express themselves. For instance, when I play mafia I don't think I engage in Fe too much beyond being cordial (in my own, twisted way ), not necessarily as being warm and effusive, but as being respectful to the extent that I don't make personal attacks. Doesn't always work, but I try.
> 
> I would like to think that my posts are mostly Ti takes at reducing the no. of possible explanations Ne generates which rely to some degree on Si (meta; plus feeling states induced at the time of reading posts). The influence of Si is something I noticed very late.. (during my SP game, I think). Why I have a hard time is because I suck at cataloging data, which is what I consider the making of ISO's of players' posts to be.
> 
> I imagined mafia was about finding patterns and inconsistencies and while that is still true, the thing I didn't consider when I started playing mafia, and it seems to be a style of playing that has grown since I started, is that people adopt the strategy of spreading a lot of information (fluff posts, or just posting a lot) making it difficult for someone like me to sift through all the stuff. So, essentially, Mafia is taking in this huge volume of data and basically comparing each piece of data to another piece and eventually to a standard for mindset which helps form a better idea about player alignment. I see this act of having to sift through large amounts of information to be incredibly tiresome, especially because I am not inclined to be meticulous about keeping track of who said what and what time. This is where Ti clashes with what I perceive to be a task requiring some kind of Te-esque approach.
> 
> The other problem is Ne-Ti is a wifom generator and wifom fucks it up. Ne-Ti is better at creating rather than eliminating possibilities because of Ne dominance.
> 
> I imagine a Te-Si or Te-Ni approach wouldn't really struggle because juggling possibilities is easier because they adopt the 'compare to standard to test for fit' approach more readily.
> 
> idk...just my theory...


interesting. Let me think more about this. 

(also note: I don't really think an entps Fe would look like an esfjs Fe.... So I'm not saying the other functions are thrown out. But I do think that fi often comes across more sure of itself. 

So my theory isn't that Ti doesn't matter for an entp, it's more this:

ne is a proceseiving function - it pulls in the info. 
Ti is a judging function and it sifts through the info
but Fe is an expressive function

imo (not just Mafia, but in existence) enfps often seem more logical (after Te develops) because they tend to explain their thoughts clearly and especially well on a subject (or game) that they care about. Where an entp, may have a lot more going through their head and no Te to kind of externalize those thoughts. 

They can learn how to, sure - but always with a touch of mad scientist or scatterbrained/ absent minded professor.


----------



## Theobruh

Um, was the point of this discussion to provide a base for a drunken bird to sqawk at the internet?

FYI if Gia were actually sensitive she'd probably be offended that you acted like you won an argument.

That's over the line, I'm not sure if your inferior Si let you remember the rules that you must have read. Sure, you might think you've won an argument, but I'm pretty sure this was supposed to be a friendly discussion, and telling someone she's an ESFJ, telling her to post like the type you think her to be, and essentially trying to embarrass her in public (lol, can the internet even be public?) is a definite no go.

What's your issue?

I don't believe you actually care about Gia finding her type. You actively tried to get her to listen to you, told other people in the thread (such as braided pain that their opinions were irrelevant (uh, what?). Telling her to post in the ESFJ introduction thread is a definite breach of polite conduct. 

I don't think you care. This, after all, is the internet. If you cared you'd probably try to have this discussion in private. Gia's a 3, this must not have been fun for her after a certain point.

Cut the BS about caring about someone and actually trying to determine the truth. You're just trying to win an argument.


----------



## Parrot

I'm not answerable to you, Bruh.


----------



## Apple Pine

@Occams Chainsaw

Aren't you ISTP 7w6


----------



## Apple Pine

I found milka cookie in the bag of milka cookies


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Apple Pine said:


> @Occams Chainsaw
> 
> Aren't you ISTP 7w6


No. You just made up a type for me and decided to frame it as a question to avoid doing what parrot was accused of lol


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> No. You just made up a type for me and decided to frame it as a question


INTJ 8w9 is my guess. Although you don't get that angry, you can't stand being directly challenged. Certainly not Ti nor type 7.



> to avoid doing what parrot was accused of lol


Yeah, I blew the petty accusation off, as panties seemed to be ruffled. Seeing as how the white knight has 5 thanks, as other brave souls rally for the victim, I'm considering going on the offensive, but not sure. Which would you recommend, good sir?


----------



## Apple Pine

Occams Chainsaw said:


> No. You just made up a type for me and decided to frame it as a question to avoid doing what parrot was accused of lol


I have told you earlier that you seem like low Fe user. And I have no idea what Drunk parrot was accused of. I noticed Gia saying you are an ENTJ, so I just randomly threw hey, how about ISTP? 

I am thinking now. Haven't I done that already before? lol. I think I might have.

And I am not here to debate your type.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> Seeing as how the white knight has 5 thanks, as other brave souls rally for the victim, I'm considering going on the offensive, but not sure. Which would you recommend, good sir?


you need to find yourself a nice lady bird with a cute feathery tail, my friend.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Apple Pine said:


> I have told you earlier that you seem like low Fe user. And I have no idea what Drunk parrot was accused of. I noticed Gia saying you are an ENTJ, so I just randomly threw hey, how about ISTP?
> 
> I am thinking now. Haven't I done that already before? lol. I think I might have.
> 
> And I am not here to debate your type.


Sure you are. This is Fe/Ti style nitpicking. 'Letter and not the spirit of the law', as they say:



> Aren't you ISTP 7w6


Is clearly an assertion and challenge, since the implication is it is already known, therefore debating my type (as Gia called it). And then you threw in 'lol I've already done this before so I actually don't care' to preserve yourself (3). Don't be silly :wink:


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> you need to find yourself a nice lady bird with a cute feathery tail, my friend.


What makes you think I'm not talking to a special lady? :redface::rolldeyes:

You need to find yourself a special block of wood lady that you can cut into yourself. :tongue:


----------



## sinaasappel

earthious said:


> i think parrot is esfp. Thoughts?


xd xd xd


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Earthious said:


> I think Parrot is ESFP. Thoughts?


Agreed. I have typed at least 10 esfp people irl and have great accuracy in determining them and he shows all the signs.


----------



## Shadow Tag

Everyone I've talked to in real life who knows about the enneagram says that there's no way I'm a 9 lol I'm confused

back to the land of the unknownnnnn


----------



## Dragheart Luard

thissiteisterrible said:


> Agreed. I have typed at least 10 esfp people irl and have great accuracy in determining them and he shows all the signs.


Personally I haven't seen anything remotely Se-Fi from him in the way that he debates, and that may be just him being a type 7, as ESFP shares many surface traits with that enneatype.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Drunk Parrot said:


> Do you know me? You're fault if not. I guarantee I've met 10 time more ESFJs than you have. They come in many different styles, just like INTPs do. Part of my theory is that Gia is not a typical "bell curve" ESFJ. She's much more of an outlier with Fe/Ne being her top functions. I think Fe comes first, and the Si is less apparent. If I could meet her in person, or see a video, I'd know pretty quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> I see no reason to trust in your ability to describe ESFJs. I'm guessing your experience is very limited.


I'm just mocking him Mordred, before you think I am serious.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> Thanks theo! I just had a thought that maybe Lissa is an Enfj?





Theobruh said:


> My second most likely option for her is IxFJ.
> For some reason, even though I see Ne, I think if she were IxFJ, she'd be INFJ, because whether she has Ne or Ni, it's higher up than Se or Si.


Lissa is never an F ever


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> Lissa is never an F ever


What do you think visor?


----------



## Parrot

Mordred Phantom said:


> Personally I haven't seen anything remotely Se-Fi from him in the way that he debates, and that may be just him being a type 7, as ESFP shares many surface traits with that enneatype.


Thanks, I assure you I am accurately typed



thissiteisterrible said:


> I'm just mocking him Mordred, before you think I am serious.


Dick :dry:

:tongue:


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> What do you think visor?


I think she is just clearly INTP.

once you know her she is clearly I - interactions and all that

she has that N vibe about her (and I don't really get the sensory stuff from how she does work in mafia games)

T is just completely obvious, beyond obvious.

And I think P just based on how she approaches things.

I can't see any other combo for her


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Drunk Parrot said:


> Thanks, I assure you I am accurately typed
> 
> 
> 
> Dick :dry:
> 
> :tongue:


i see you typed me correctly


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> I think she is just clearly INTP.
> 
> once you know her she is clearly I - interactions and all that
> 
> she has that N vibe about her (and I don't really get the sensory stuff from how she does work in mafia games)
> 
> T is just completely obvious, beyond obvious.
> 
> And I think P just based on how she approaches things.
> 
> I can't see any other combo for her


Interesting


----------



## Parrot

thissiteisterrible said:


> i see you typed me correctly


6w5...how ordinary. ESTP, cool with that. At least you know how to properly mock someone.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> Interesting


do you think otherwise?

i think intp fits perfectly


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Drunk Parrot said:


> 6w5...how ordinary. ESTP, cool with that. At least you know how to properly mock someone.


i prefer to be called special snowflake


----------



## Parrot

thissiteisterrible said:


> i prefer to be called special snowflake


Yeah and I bet all the Whos in your Whoville have extra chromosomes.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Drunk Parrot said:


> Yeah and I bet all the Whos in your Whoville have extra chromosomes.


they're all down with the sickness sadly


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> do you think otherwise?
> 
> i think intp fits perfectly


I was thinking xnfj
There was the Ni can't read vibe from her imo


----------



## Parrot

thissiteisterrible said:


> they're all down with the sickness sadly


When I think ESTP 6w5, I think every member of a prison gang.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> I was thinking xnfj
> There was the Ni can't read vibe from her imo


wat

please explain that read

it makes zero sense

please explain how she is f or j

or how she doesn't have ni


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Drunk Parrot said:


> When I think ESTP 6w5, I think every member of a prison gang.


i wouldn't talk smack buddy, the lads get out in two weeks


----------



## Parrot

thissiteisterrible said:


> i wouldn't talk smack buddy, the lads get out in two weeks


Haha, way to keep up. Now you can change your name to thisisntthatbad


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> wat
> 
> please explain that read
> 
> it makes zero sense
> 
> please explain how she is f or j
> 
> or how she doesn't have ni


I'm having a visor moment lol

I explained it earlier I just have to find that quote heh, maybe tomorrow

But I used her Mafia play for her typing and see seems to have this wave like thinking pattern compared to other intps which are more sporadic


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Drunk Parrot said:


> Haha, way to keep up. Now you can change your name to thisisntthatbad


i have an image to maintain


GIA Diamonds said:


> I'm having a visor moment lol
> 
> I explained it earlier I just have to find that quote heh, maybe tomorrow
> 
> But I used her Mafia play for her typing and see seems to have this wave like thinking pattern compared to other intps which are more sporadic


how much have you played with lissa, incidentally? is it just the few turbos and around 1 game on here?

because i don't think you have an accurate impression of lissa's play (IMO)

especially in the games on pog and MU she tends to be a lot more Ni

like i said, I don't get sensor vibes at all from her (and neither do most people i believe)


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> i have an image to maintain
> 
> 
> how much have you played with lissa, incidentally? is it just the few turbos and around 1 game on here?
> 
> because i don't think you have an accurate impression of lissa's play (IMO)


It's was two maybe? Three?
An yeah she does play differently on MU though which was a shock and honestly why I scum read her heh...

And visor you get the GOAT-of-the year-award


----------



## Lord Necro

Earthious said:


> I think Parrot is ESFP. Thoughts?


To be fair, pretty much anyone under the influence of alcohol will appear as ESFP. It's not the simplest task in the world trying to accurately type an addict.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

GIA Diamonds said:


> It's was two maybe? Three?
> An yeah she does play differently on MU though which was a shock and honestly why I scum read her heh...



i think even on perc its obvious enough, but the game is played in a different manner off site. I think you are just misinterpreting a bit really. i think she does a lot of mental jumping like ns tend to do, she just explains it because she knows how to play 

then again, i think I and T are really obvious for her - do you see anything that could lead otherwise?


GIA Diamonds said:


> And visor you get the GOAT-of-the year-award


no kidding


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Drunk Parrot said:


> Thanks, I assure you I am accurately typed


That's good as I already know ESFPs and I've talked with Yasuo, so I know how to contrast both types. Both can be goofballs but the kind of antics are quite different.


----------



## sinaasappel

thissiteisterrible said:


> i think even on perc its obvious enough, but the game is played in a different manner off site. I think you are just misinterpreting a bit really. i think she does a lot of mental jumping like ns tend to do, she just explains it because she knows how to play
> 
> then again, i think I and T are really obvious for her - do you see anything that could lead otherwise?
> 
> 
> no kidding


I agree that I and N are there but she's just so fluid... But it probably is because she's played for a while that I'm misinterpreting her and it really doesn't help that I can't read her in the first place >_> but for some reason I just think Ni-Fe works.....but then again I'm not even going to start my shipping again so it's also the shipping bias  and you know what I mean lol


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Nator said:


> To be fair, pretty much anyone under the influence of alcohol will appear as ESFP. It's not the simplest task in the world trying to accurately type an addict.


Nator, let me tell you something. _Everyone _is an ESFP.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Drunk Parrot's relevant thread promotion: http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?p=28020489


----------



## Theobruh

Drunk Parrot said:


> @Apple Pine
> Don't feel like thinking for myself so I outsourced my rants
> 
> 
> Um, was the point of this discussion to provide a base for an apple to pine at the internet?
> 
> FYI if Occam was actually sensitive he'd probably be offended that you acted like you won an argument.
> 
> That's over the line, I'm not sure if your inferior Fi let you remember the rules that you must have read. Sure, you might think you've won an argument, but I'm pretty sure this was supposed to be a friendly discussion, and telling someone he's an ISTP telling him to post like the type you think him to be, and essentially trying to embarrass him in public (lol, can the internet even be public?) is a definite no go.
> 
> What's your issue?
> 
> I don't believe you actually care about Occam finding his type. You actively tried to get him to listen to you, told other people in the thread (such as no one that their opinions were irrelevant (uh, what?). Telling him to post in the ISTP introduction thread is a definite breach of polite conduct.
> 
> I don't think you care. This, after all, is the internet. If you cared you'd probably try to have this discussion in private. Occam's an 8, this must not have been fun for him after a certain point.
> 
> Cut the BS about caring about someone and actually trying to determine the truth. You're just trying to win an argument.


Omg, I love the parody. Glad you didn't take it personally. :kitteh:


----------



## Parrot

Theobruh said:


> Omg, I love the parody. Glad you didn't take it personally. :kitteh:


No, I took it personally and was mocking you.


----------



## Theobruh

Drunk Parrot said:


> No, I took it personally and was mocking you.


Pretty sure I'm well aware of that :wink:


----------



## Parrot

Theobruh said:


> Pretty sure I'm well aware of that :wink:


Based on this...



Theobruh said:


> Omg, I love the parody. Glad you didn't take it personally. :kitteh:


And the context of the original quote, I just assumed you weren't smart enough to understand it. After all, you were stupid enough to think that feeling strongly about something gave you licensed to lecture someone about another's feelings. It was piss poor analysis, which is even more offensive, a true embarrassment to NTPs everywhere.

At the very least, I hope someone explained to you that I'm not someone who would be inspired by your cute rant. But as long as it made you feel better, that's all I care about. :kitteh:


----------



## Theobruh

Drunk Parrot said:


> Based on this...
> 
> 
> 
> And the context of the original quote, I just assumed you weren't smart enough to understand it. After all, you were stupid enough to think that feeling strongly about something gave you licensed to lecture someone about another's feelings. It was piss poor analysis, which is even more offensive, a true embarrassment to NTPs everywhere.
> 
> At the very least, I hope someone explained to you that I'm not someone who would be inspired by your cute rant. But as long as it made you feel better, that's all I care about. :kitteh:


Pretty sure that was an obvious joke? Did you not like my provocation?
Lol


----------



## Parrot

Theobruh said:


> Pretty sure that was an obvious joke? Did you not like my provocation?
> Lol


What was a joke?


----------



## Theobruh

Drunk Parrot said:


> What was a joke?


Oh my. Nothing, you don't need to know.
I just thought it was pretty cute. Don't worry about it.

It's just a bad habit of mine.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

enfp for parrot

the rustling makes sense for a dirty feeler

everything else is obvious


----------



## Parrot

thissiteisterrible said:


> enfp for parrot
> 
> the rustling makes sense for a dirty feeler
> 
> everything else is obvious


You say obvious and clearly a lot to hide your actual experience in typing people, as you aren't that good.


----------



## Theobruh

thissiteisterrible said:


> enfp for parrot
> 
> the rustling makes sense for a dirty feeler
> 
> everything else is obvious


I thought you said ESFP


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> 8w9 5w6 3w2/4. Sx dom for sure then probably Sp.


Probably social instinct, not sp. I'm acutely aware of power dynamics. I have a good example but will have to wait until the Mafia game is over to explain it.

My Sp is like an inferior MBTI function. It's hot and cold -- erratic. [similar probably to why @Earthious is claiming Se inf. - I'll go from soothing a need for complete control and physical binges / acute need for realisation (something concrete) to then getting stuck in horrible Ni-related stuff. Writing all the walls, crippled by obsession on pattern, etc. where I've lost touch with Se] It's like I want to self-preserve, like any rational person, but intensity comes first. My focus is on experience and intensity and my focus is on hierarchy. I'm quite happy with the instinctual stacking as it is.

Re: Tritype. I've been writing a response for about 3 days now. It's getting there but I'm also reading 2 enneagram books alongside it and my understanding is changing a little. Will probably post it by the weekend once I've reduced it to something palatable.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Probably social instinct, not sp. I'm acutely aware of power dynamics. I have a good example but will have to wait until the Mafia game is over to explain it.
> 
> My Sp is like an inferior MBTI function. It's hot and cold -- erratic. [similar probably to why @Earthious is claiming Se inf. - I'll go from soothing a need for complete control and physical binges / acute need for realisation (something concrete) to then getting stuck in horrible Ni-related stuff. Writing all the walls, crippled by obsession on pattern, etc. where I've lost touch with Se] It's like I want to self-preserve, like any rational person, but intensity comes first. My focus is on experience and intensity and my focus is on hierarchy. I'm quite happy with the instinctual stacking as it is.
> 
> Re: Tritype. I've been writing a response for about 3 days now. It's getting there but I'm also reading 2 enneagram books alongside it and my understanding is changing a little. Will probably post it by the weekend once I've reduced it to something palatable.


I could see that as far as sp. Notice that those of us who admit to being "pathic" online are not sp dom at all. I have little care about what could happen. I imagine sp type or even secondary sp are much more cautious.

sx dom for sure, though


----------



## Schmendricks

GIA Diamonds said:


> I usually always feel like I'm failing something as a 3w4 I'm not saying that's s good or bad thing but it keeps me going just a tiny thought....


And not a bad one to share! Thanks for the tip!


----------



## angelfish

PerC friends, 

I would be grateful of some advice regarding gut type if y'all have any thoughts for me. 

When I first encountered the Enneagram, I typed as 4w3 because I am artistic and was quite the overacheiver/perfectionist in school, and/or 7w6 because I am joy-seeking and adventuresome, and very loyal. Following that, I typed as 3w4 before finally coming to rest on 6w7. I trityped myself at 6w7-2w3-9w1. I initially typed my IV at sx/soc but later settled on soc/sx.

Recently I have typed as 6w7-9w8-2w3, and still feel pretty certain about the 6w7 and 2w3, but recent events are giving me pause regarding my gut type. I have a proclivity to avoid learning about anxiety-provoking things in my life (i.e., health insurance details, looking at my bank statements, etc.), which seems both sp-last and quite 9ish. I have a hard time getting in touch with my desires, which seems 9ish. I have a very strong reaction to feeling controlled, which I assumed was w8, but I have also been historically called "moralistic" by my IxTP family members, which seems 1. I do relate to 1's perfectionism, frustration, penting things up, and eventually exploding. I also relate to 9w8's thick body-ness, though. I pride myself on my physical endurance and strength, and my capability. I like being able to do things myself, for myself. 

So all in all, I'm pretty confused. I feel like I could fall anywhere in the gut type range except 8w9 - I have little personal drive. Any questions are more than welcome.


----------



## squeakin.deakin

Hey guys I'm new to the forum(ish), well this is my first post anywho. I've taken lots of enneagram tests over the past day and got different results each time, some have said type 2, some have said 7, others 9, meanwhile things like 3, 4 and 5 are consistently high but after reading up about them I deeply identify with type 4s the most. Helping people and being calm isn't something I necessarily need to do, they're things I want to do. I enjoy being nice and being a calm guy, I don't feel like I'm betraying myself when I'm being a dick. However I love my originality, my friends consider my clothes and hair eccentric, the parts about having amazing self awareness and 'nothing ever feeling like the right time' and 'I have a talent nobody else possesses' ring so true. I'm just not sure if I'm looking at it too simplified. I've even looked into the wings of each of my results and believe I'm a 2v3 or 4v3 but can't figure out what. My type 4 has been relatively high on each test I've done but not one of the top 3, I just feel like the tests take my niceness/calmness into account too much and because I have great relationships with my friends it separates me from type 4s who're meant to be withdrawn and aloof. I'm also aware 4 and 2 feed into eachother so maybe instead of being a well developed 4 I could be an underdeveloped 2 and blissfully unaware of it.
Any help would be great, I imagine I'll pay for a full official test when I have the funds but for now I'm just trying to understand myself. After reading all the type descriptions I was so sure I'm a 4, but now I'm really not sure.


----------



## Brains

@squeakin.deakin

Try to find a crutch. A self-concept, a thing, a conscious or subconscious expectation that you cling to that you feel you need to make it through life.


----------



## Parrot

@huhh does ESTP 7w6 work for you?


----------



## huhh

Drunk Parrot said:


> @huhh does ESTP 7w6 work for you?


Yeah it works pretty well  got some 7w8-tendencies aswell but i guess when you come down to the core i'm more of a loyalist, mah peeps ya know <3

aint that good at ennegram but i think i'll look into it more seriously shortly


----------



## Parrot

huhh said:


> Yeah it works pretty well  got some 7w8-tendencies aswell but i guess when you come down to the core i'm more of a loyalist, mah peeps ya know <3
> 
> aint that good at ennegram but i think i'll look into it more seriously shortly


Yeah and ESTP, too. You started as ENTP when you first joined, but I get an Se vibe from you.


----------



## huhh

Drunk Parrot said:


> Yeah and ESTP, too. You started as ENTP when you first joined, but I get an Se vibe from you.


Yeah! I agree with that too. Funny that like.. 2 years ago I would've typed myself INTP :s


----------



## Parrot

huhh said:


> Yeah! I agree with that too. Funny that like.. 2 years ago I would've typed myself INTP :s


Well Ti is certainly there. Wouldn't be surprised if you're an ISTP type 7, as well. Don't get me wrong, you're always welcome in the ENTP forum, as our fellow Ti brother. INTJs, though...they might just show up anyway. :laughing:


----------



## Gossip Goat

I've been a 1,2,3,4,5,6 and a 9. Don't relate to 4 anymore. Mostly think its down to 1,6 or 9 for the "main E". Although idk~ plz reveal


----------



## Brains

Page 666! Why? For the glory of Satan of course!

Just putting up notice that I am still and always will be game.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Someone please help me figure out my tritype 

Most of my recent posts have been in the 4 forum.


----------



## Spiren

I'm open to suggestions and questions, although I haven't been around long. I planned on making this later once I'd written up more posts but why not now? I've rated how sure I am in brackets.

5w6 - 5 (99%) w6 (95%)
1w9 (95%)
4w3 (60%) / 3w4 (40%)

sp/sx (99%)


----------



## Parrot

Nyle said:


> I'm open to suggestions and questions, although I haven't been around long. I planned on making this later once I'd written up more posts but why not now? I've rated how sure I am in brackets.
> 
> 5w6 - 5 (99%) w6 (95%)
> 1w9 (95%)
> 4w3 (60%) / 3w4 (40%)
> 
> sp/sx (99%)


Based on that, sounds like 5w6 1w9 4w3 sp/sx works just fine. No reason to doubt yourself, then.


----------



## Spiren

Drunk Parrot said:


> Based on that, sounds like 5w6 1w9 4w3 sp/sx works just fine. No reason to doubt yourself, then.


Heh I could be wrong. We're prone to numerous and often faulty influences when it's come to assessing ourselves. Sure, this in itself is an attribute of our own mindsets, hence the point to allowing input.


----------



## EMWUZX

@Drunk Parrot

So, you're an ENTP, and I'm an ENTP. You're a type 7, but am I a type 7? Or am I a type 3? I'm conflicted.

I've gotten 3s and 7s on various tests, but I suspect that being an ENTP is messing with the results. I like playing to my strengths, and I want to come across as a Ben Franklin style genius with more direction than Ben himself and with less of an emphasis on the material. That's working extremely well, but does that mean that I'm a 7? Or am I just acting like a 7 to get want I want? Am I answering my own question right now?

I relate more to the shame aspect of the 3 than I do to the anxiety aspect of the 7, and I'm not massively interested in having various experiences. I have a huge number of hobbies, a good number of which I'm good at, but I don't do hobbies because I want to experience them: I do them to achieve the look that I want. That's a 3 thing, but am I just deceiving myself, because I like the idea of being a 3?

I relate more to the 7's desire to keep options open, but is that just because my goals are vague? Success to me = Impacting the world in a serious way, so isn't it prudent to keep my options open?


----------



## Parrot

EMWUZX said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> 
> So, you're an ENTP, and I'm an ENTP. You're a type 7, but am I a type 7? Or am I a type 3? I'm conflicted.
> 
> I've gotten 3s and 7s on various tests, but I suspect that being an ENTP is messing with the results. I like playing to my strengths, and I want to come across as a Ben Franklin style genius with more direction than Ben himself and with less of an emphasis on the material. That's working extremely well, but does that mean that I'm a 7? Or am I just acting like a 7 to get want I want? Am I answering my own question right now?
> 
> I relate more to the shame aspect of the 3 than I do to the anxiety aspect of the 7, and I'm not massively interested in having various experiences. I have a huge number of hobbies, a good number of which I'm good at, but I don't do hobbies because I want to experience them: I do them to achieve the look that I want. That's a 3 thing, but am I just deceiving myself, because I like the idea of being a 3?
> 
> I relate more to the 7's desire to keep options open, but is that just because my goals are vague? Success to me = Impacting the world in a serious way, so isn't it prudent to keep my options open?


You sound like you have an image core with a 7 fix. So you're probably a 3 with strong 7, but integration is to 6 not 5.

I want to have fun more than I care about how others perceive me, although I can be quite egotistical, but that has nothing to do with 3.


----------



## Bunny

I'm so stuck between 5w4>3w4>8w7 & 5w4>4w3>8w7 :dry:


----------



## Brains

Wytch said:


> I'm so stuck between 5w4>3w4>8w7 & 5w4>4w3>8w7 :dry:


I'd personally take a long, hard look at ESTP 5 core first.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Wytch, you considered 6w7?


----------



## Aladdin Sane

I don't understand how people can mistype themselves. Do you get different results on tests / when you read descriptions or do you relate to the descriptions of more than one type?


----------



## Brains

ziggy stardust x said:


> I don't understand how people can mistype themselves. Do you get different results on tests / when you read descriptions or do you relate to the descriptions of more than one type?


Trusting tests as a source is one fine way to start, and trusting shitty typology blogs is another. By and large, the tests and functions look at pretty different things about you - what kind of person you need to be to score eg. INTJ on a test is different from having Ni+Te processing habits. They use the same code because of shared history, but are not the same thing, yet the tests give you functions or Keirsey temperament based type profiles instead of describing your actual test results. Enneagram tests suffer from similar problems.

Secondly, people don't really have nearly enough appreciation that type, Jungian type especially, is about how you do things, not what you do or if you do. A person's mental contents are a huge part of their character and many typology enthusiasts either gloss over it or tie it to specific functions (like being intellectual = being NT or the like) and secondly that it is in large part a description of what about you is boring, dull and everyday. Your dominant function is a compulsive process that's hard to shut down and the auxiliary something you just do out of habit - both with ease. They're the bills and daily commute. People all too often look at what about them is really interesting and think "this is what I am really about", and this excitement tends to correspond to the lesser functions: They're what is exciting to you, after all. It's interesting and unusual and what you experience yourself as thinking about a lot - because you don't pay much mind to the everyday parts of yourself.

Third, we can be blind to parts of ourselves and need others to point them out to even realize we're doing any of it. That's partially why most Enneagram authors suggest cultivating a self-witnessing mind: So you can be more aware of how you really are and how that trips you up.

Finally, people use types as a source of identity: They see types that look desirable ("deepness" being a common preoccupation - say hello to the neverending hordes of online INJs who normal plebs just don't understand and "darkest and most intense" 458's) and identify as those types so they can tell themselves they are like that. Portray INTJs as Nikola Tesla level geniuses and inscrutably deep masterminds and people will flock to the type to borrow from someone else's greatness. Of course, the reality of who they are doesn't change. We've all been dealt a hand and it's up to us how to play it best. Telling yourself you are what you're not isn't that helpful and you'll just mire yourself up in a neverending bog of rationalizations to stay with the type and build a fragile ego for yourself: If so much of your sense of worth is invested in being a type, you will not brook challenges to it and if the worm of doubt ever truly gains hold, the results won't be pretty.


----------



## Aladdin Sane

Brains said:


> -


Cool story, but I was looking for people to explain to me why they personally find it hard to identify which personality type they are and why they keep switching between types, not some pseudo-intellectual rant.


----------



## Animal

double post

Candy to fill in the space:


----------



## Animal

ziggy stardust x said:


> I don't understand how people can mistype themselves. Do you get different results on tests / when you read descriptions or do you relate to the descriptions of more than one type?


Do you feel your self-image and personality are described perfectly by tests and descriptions?


----------



## Animal

Wytch said:


> I'm so stuck between 5w4>3w4>8w7 & 5w4>4w3>8w7 :dry:


Hm can you elaborate on why you would choose each fix (3 and 4) ?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

ziggy stardust x said:


> Cool story, but I was looking for people to explain to me why they personally find it hard to identify which personality type they are and why they keep switching between types, not some pseudo-intellectual rant.


It's like studying the bible. There are hundreds of interpretations of each verse and each denomination thinks theirs is equally correct. Accuracy in how you interpret your actions/thoughts/character in regards to the text you choose as your One True Word is also difficult because we both appeal to a flattering self image and have lack of experience in introspection. Mastery of the material tends to lead to a change in view which makes one look at themselves differently, etc.

You soon realise that none of this actually matters though because the verses are imperfect and riddled with contradictions anyway. I doubt that MBTI nor enneagram nor socionics accurately encapsulate the human condition as well as they'd like to and it's quite likely that in seeing the system isn't perfect but not removing themselves from it there is a bit of 'musical chairs', searching for something that fits better.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

ziggy stardust x said:


> Cool story, but I was looking for people to explain to me why they personally find it hard to identify which personality type they are and why they keep switching between types, not some pseudo-intellectual rant.


Because tests suck balls and the descriptions glorify intuitives and talk shit about sensors. Therefore, people pick whatever is popular or cool even if that doesn't represent who they are deep down.


----------



## Aladdin Sane

Animal said:


> Do you feel your self-image and personality are described perfectly by tests and descriptions?


I do find the descriptions of my personality type incredibly accurate, as if someone had looked into my brain and wrote down what they saw. I had never seen myself described so accurately before and I was shocked when I first found out about MBTI/Enneagram/Socionics. I just don't understand why people would struggle to find which type they are, because for me, it was pretty obvious which one I was from start. Then again, I guess if you are a more balanced person it could be hard to figure out whether you are extroverted or introverted and so on.


----------



## Aladdin Sane

Mordred Phantom said:


> Because tests suck balls and the descriptions glorify intuitives and talk shit about sensors. Therefore, people pick whatever is popular or cool even if that doesn't represent who they are deep down.


Most of the descriptions I have read emphasize the positive traits and strengths of all personality types so this doesn't really make sense to me.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

ziggy stardust x said:


> Most of the descriptions I have read emphasize the positive traits and strengths of all personality types so this doesn't really make sense to me.


A socially awkward basement dweller isn't going to easily identify with the positive traits of being gregarious, extroverted and socially potent. This dissonance in image and reality would be too high to be feasible.

A secretive scheming mastermind of the universe who has a plan for everything and will win in the end with the last laugh, instead of a dutiful accountant who is safe and boring but at least will get their taxes in on time, though? Sounds quite appealing to me!

Note: This emphasises the Intuitive bias.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

ziggy stardust x said:


> Most of the descriptions I have read emphasize the positive traits and strengths of all personality types so this doesn't really make sense to me.


That's why is easy to mistype, as you don't see the negatives properly reflected on them, and if I believed tests results I would mistype as INTP 5w6, when that's quite off for me. Socionics is more balanced, but in MBTI sensors are usually seen as inferior, specially by the users that spread the misconceptions of those types. If you really want to know your type you should read Jung, as there you will find the original definitions.


----------



## Aladdin Sane

Mordred Phantom said:


> That's why is easy to mistype, as you don't see the negatives properly reflected on them, and if I believed tests results I would mistype as INTP 5w6, when that's quite off for me. Socionics is more balanced, but in MBTI sensors are usually seen as inferior, specially by the users that spread the misconceptions of those types. If you really want to know your type you should read Jung, as there you will find the original definitions.


I have read Jung, it was actually part of a module I took at university.

Well yeah, I guess _some_ people on this website [or the Internet in general] might see sensors as inferior, but I don't see how MBTI portrays sensors as inferior. Inferior in what? Certain types will be, on average, superior in some aspects than others, people are different, but I don't think the idea that one type is inferior to another can be seen in the descriptions.


----------



## Aladdin Sane

Occams Chainsaw said:


> A socially awkward basement dweller isn't going to easily identify with the positive traits of being gregarious, extroverted and socially potent. This dissonance in image and reality would be too high to be feasible.
> 
> A secretive scheming mastermind of the universe who has a plan for everything and will win in the end with the last laugh, instead of a dutiful accountant who is safe and boring but at least will get their taxes in on time, though? Sounds quite appealing to me!
> 
> Note: This emphasises the Intuitive bias.


I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at. Are you saying that an ISTJ would 'pretend' to be an INTJ just so he can fulfill some stereotype on the Internet? I'm talking about people who are actually struggling to find their type, not someone who decided they are going to pretend to be X to be 'cool' among the arrogant cunts on PerC. Haha.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

ziggy stardust x said:


> I have read Jung, it was actually part of a module I took at university.
> 
> Well yeah, I guess _some_ people on this website [or the Internet in general] might seem sensors as inferior, but I don't see how MBTI portrays sensors as inferior. Inferior in what? Certain types will be, on average, superior in some aspects than others, people are different, but I don't think the idea that one type is inferior to another can be seen in the descriptions.


Good, then you have an idea of how types work. The inferior/superior dichotomy is evident if you read threads on this forum, and worse if you see posts in tumblr. I cringe when people define INTJ as some sort of sociopath that will conquer the world, as that's a very poor representation of that archetype. Most introverted intuitive types are shown as deep while sensors are shown as either party animals, mother hens, accountants, micromanagers or outright irresponsible people.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

ziggy stardust x said:


> I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at. Are you saying that an ISTJ would 'pretend' to be an INTJ just so he can fulfill some stereotype on the Internet? I'm talking about people who are actually struggling to find their type, not someone who decided they are going to pretend to be X to be 'cool' among the arrogant cunts on PerC. Haha.


Rather, they want to (and do) believe it. Look around the forum and you'll notice a lot of confusion about who people think they are, a lack of self esteem and a feeling that they never really fit in. It tends to be a common set of themes that start the process of trying to find out who one is. So they take a test or two, read a couple of descriptions and find that this INTJ guy is pretty cool and fits well enough - ISTJ and INTJ aren't *that* different in description but certainly one is probably favourable. Brains was not incorrect when he said they will latch onto a type to gain a self of positive self-identity, even if that image isn't completely accurate. 

For what it's worth, I also have changed my type two or three times. First test had me as ENTP, then I tested as INTJ an another. Each time I have look at the functions, I've ben certain of using Ni-Se axis and played around with T-F a few times but find because of idiosyncrasies in who I am, I can't get a proper hold of either. But those who have known me longest tend to say INTJ so it seems sensible enough given I also identify with it. In both our cases, though, there is no escaping the fact that we could be shitlords not seeing the reality of who we are because it's unflattering to think of ourselves in any other way.


----------



## Aladdin Sane

Mordred Phantom said:


> Good, then you have an idea of how types work. The inferior/superior dichotomy is evident if you read threads on this forum, and worse if you see posts in tumblr. I cringe when people define INTJ as some sort of sociopath that will conquer the world, as that's a very poor representation of that archetype. Most introverted intuitive types are shown as deep while sensors are shown as either party animals, mother hens, accountants, micromanagers or outright irresponsible people.



HAHA I can imagine what goes on MBTI-wise on Tumblr. 

But you're right, people on this forum do stereotype and seem to think that everyone of a certain type is basically the same person, which is really bizzare. My favorite is the 'You can't be X type, because I am X type and you aren't like me'. Or when people post their personal problems with their SO/ friends and attribute every problem they have ever had with them to MBTI, like '[ESTJ] My ESTJ boyfriend killed my dog, can you ESTJ's tell me how you could do something like this', it doesn't seem to occur to people that there are billions of people on the planet, all of whom are very different...


----------



## MolaMola

What's funny is that when I took the MBTI for the very first time, I kept getting ISTP!


----------



## Cowboy

daleks_exterminate said:


> @OOCeans chainsaw @Drunk Parrot @Polexiasmallpox @mnip @Versails @Cowboy @Saint Alia
> and whoever else- type me like one of your French girls.


ENTP. And clearly Corsican.


----------



## Animal

Wytch said:


> It's tough because the more I read about them the more they appear alike to me.
> I can be an elitist, I am competitive, I care about my outside appearance.
> I mean I'm not Patrick Bateman or anything heh but I do have a strict routine that I do each day in order to keep myself looking my best.
> I can think of myself as better than others and give certain people more of my attention than another because of it.
> I am quite aware of myself and accepting of myself. I don't really put on "masks". I am always myself and like being myself.
> I wouldn't want to be anyone else but me.
> I do like to think of myself as different from the rest. Not necessarily always better than someone else but just different.
> I don't like it when I see someone else having something in common with me sometimes.
> It bothers me on an individual level.
> It really depends on the person and what they have in common with me.
> I mean if it's a person I admire or respect then I'll really like that we have stuff in common.
> I do enjoy attention and sometimes seek it out. I have some Narc tendencies but I don't think I'm an actual Narcissist.
> I can be dramatic, I don't like it but I know I can be. I like being upfront and honest with people, I'm not someone who is scared of the truth.
> I always want the truth, no matter what. I can at times feel sorry for myself and the whole "woe is me" mentality but I get over it.
> Because I'd much rather move on and keep looking ahead. I want others to see my talents.
> I do often hide my feelings because I am sensitive, in a sense. I do not care about many people but when I do care... I care a lot.
> I've read often about 4w3 being someone who attracts a person who wants to rescue them.
> I'm not so sure about that with me, I'm not the damsel in distress type. I would rather rescue myself if possible.
> I do not hide who I am. I'm not so sure if it's just my Sx/sp or not but I look for strong connections, I want to be fully understood.
> I want to be accepted by the person I am with for who I am entirely.
> Showing my feelings to someone, shows my vulnerability but I am willing to take that risk if I feel it's worth it.
> I'm someone who does not regret and tries to look at the positive of every situation.
> 
> Hmm, that was a lot haha, I'm not sure how much that helps but I figured I'd point out some of my personality that relates to each.


Hmmm... not sure if I can tease it apart from that. I can see both in there, so at least I feel 4w3 or 3w4 is in the right ballpark 

I have this thread where I go on about some of my impressions. I'm not sure if I agree with the impressions I wrote up years ago, lol.. but I wrote these posts more recently about image types. I'm not any enneagram scholar so take these definitions or ideas for what they are.. just my ideas  nothing more.. but at the very least it's different from the same internet sources that we've all read, so might as well give it a shot. 


http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...isons-common-misconceptions.html#post28906826

Could you maybe comment on things you do or don't relate to where I mention 4 or 3 in that post? (in case it doesn't show up, it's post #5. If you're not ready to claw your eyes out from the length of the posts, #6 and #7 also cover some stuff about type 4.)


----------



## Bunny

Animal said:


> Hmmm... not sure if I can tease it apart from that. I can see both in there, so at least I feel 4w3 or 3w4 is in the right ballpark
> 
> I have this thread where I go on about some of my impressions. I'm not sure if I agree with the impressions I wrote up years ago, lol.. but I wrote these posts more recently about image types. I'm not any enneagram scholar so take these definitions or ideas for what they are.. just my ideas  nothing more.. but at the very least it's different from the same internet sources that we've all read, so might as well give it a shot.
> 
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...isons-common-misconceptions.html#post28906826
> 
> Could you maybe comment on things you do or don't relate to where I mention 4 or 3 in that post? (in case it doesn't show up, it's post #5. If you're not ready to claw your eyes out from the length of the posts, #6 and #7 also cover some stuff about type 4.)


I did ramble a bit lol I'm feeling a little odd lately so excuse my randomness.

I'd be happy to, thank you =)

Haha, it's fine I don't mind reading lengthy posts if I'm interested in the topic.
I certainly don't mind different and scholar or not I think you have some great insights.


----------



## Bunny

XD @oceans Chainsaw


----------



## Animal

Wytch said:


> I did ramble a bit lol I'm feeling a little odd lately so excuse my randomness.
> 
> I'd be happy to, thank you =)
> 
> Haha, it's fine I don't mind reading lengthy posts if I'm interested in the topic.
> I certainly don't mind different and scholar or not I think you have some great insights.


Thanks 

The more I learn about enneagram, the more I realize I _don't_ know. It's amazing how deep the study is.  So it makes me happy to hear that.

I'm not always good at typing people from threads, descriptions of their type and so forth.. it's easier when interacting with them over time and NOT talking about type, just seeing how they respond to things in general..then one day a type pops into mind, and usually then I end up sticking with it (and often times the other person either agrees or comes to agree). Also it's a million times easier in person with body language , the "unspokens," etc. But at least if we bounce ideas back and forth it will give something to think about. 

Also I saw some 6 suggestions, just for whatever it's worth - I'm better at image types to be fair - but six seems totally wrong for you. Sx 5 seems right to me; the only other vibe I get from you is Sx 7 but I think it's just the line from 5. Just my impression though.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Earthious said:


> @Wytch how do u identify with 5? I don't see it. 6 seems better imo. Cp alright, yes. There is a big reactive trait to you.


somewhat agree


----------



## thissiteisterrible

oops


----------



## Bunny

Animal said:


> Thanks
> 
> The more I learn about enneagram, the more I realize I _don't_ know. It's amazing how deep the study is.  So it makes me happy to hear that.
> 
> I'm not always good at typing people from threads, descriptions of their type and so forth.. it's easier when interacting with them over time and NOT talking about type, just seeing how they respond to things in general..then one day a type pops into mind, and usually then I end up sticking with it (and often times the other person either agrees or comes to agree). Also it's a million times easier in person with body language , the "unspokens," etc. But at least if we bounce ideas back and forth it will give something to think about.
> 
> Also I saw some 6 suggestions, just for whatever it's worth - I'm better at image types to be fair - but six seems totally wrong for you. Sx 5 seems right to me; the only other vibe I get from you is Sx 7 but I think it's just the line from 5. Just my impression though.


I have only touched the surface on Enneagrams but I can definitely see the intricacies of it for sure.

I like that =) I think that's the best way to type someone. Because they're not being put on the spot, they're talking/acting more naturally and just reacting.
If you don't know someone, even if they fill out a long form for you or whatever.
I still think it's difficult to type them because the questions are not always relatable and the person may be trying to answer them in a certain way. If they already have a type(s) in mind for themself.

That's fair on the 6 and I would consider but I just don't relate to 6s much.
Sure there are a few things but I think everyone can relate to each of the types in some way or another.

I appreciate your input and thoughts on it =) thanks and I do think Sx really makes a 5 look a bit "unusual" for a 5.
I'm guessing that is one of the reasons why people do not get the 5 for me, unless they know about Sx 5s.
I honestly was not even sure about 5 myself until I started reading about Sx 5 specifically.

Sx 7 yeah Lol, I actually remember reading this on a site once (had to go find it again).


> When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), detached Fives suddenly become hyperactive and scattered at Seven.


^That's definitely me.


----------



## Parrot

Earthious said:


> You're asking drunk parrot for typing advice? :kitteh:


:sad:



daleks_exterminate said:


> of course.
> i wish to be amused.
> 
> What say you that I am, spherical water, and dirt mass?


ENTP 6w7 3w4 8w7 sx/?


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Wytch said:


> I'm honestly curious how you see 6 in me. I don't see it.
> & Most people say 5 or 8 (sometimes 4).
> 
> Well, first I'm going to link you to an article that is so much like me it's not even funny.
> I could type all of that out but this is much easier.
> If you need more information from me then you can go ahead after you read the post here.
> http://personalitycafe.com/head-tri...sexual-fives-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


6 is mainly just a guess, but nope don't see five? Where is the intellectual "why" behind things for example? I don't see a motivation to search for understanding from your posts at all. 

My 6 guess is mainly from mafia. Just the ways you interact especially when under stress. I'd write more,but I'm tired. 


Drunk Parrot said:


> :sad:
> 
> 
> 
> ENTP 6w7 3w4 8w7 sx/?


<3 you know I'm just kidding.


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Earthious said:


> 6 is mainly just a guess, but nope don't see five? Where is the intellectual "why" behind things for example? I don't see a motivation to search for understanding from your posts at all.
> 
> My 6 guess is mainly from mafia. Just the ways you interact especially when under stress. I'd write more,but I'm tired.
> 
> <3 you know I'm just kidding.


she's not kidding :kitteh:


----------



## daleks_exterminate

thissiteisterrible said:


> she's not kidding :kitteh:


hi, mom.


----------



## Animal

I made this poll for an experiment of sorts. I'm not reconsidering my type, but curious how it will play out.  Anyone want to indulge me and cast a vote? Thanks 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/874482-animals-core-type-vote.html


----------



## Bunny

Earthious said:


> 6 is mainly just a guess, but nope don't see five? Where is the intellectual "why" behind things for example? I don't see a motivation to search for understanding from your posts at all.
> 
> My 6 guess is mainly from mafia. Just the ways you interact especially when under stress. I'd write more,but I'm tired.
> 
> <3 you know I'm just kidding.


I knew you were going to mention Mafia and for that I say Mafia is a game of deception.
I'm also still new to it and am obviously still trying to understand it.
I keep going though because I want to understand it.

I was actually just talking about how I am under stress to @Animal and I do realise that I may come off that way.
When a 5 disintegrates (stresses) to a 7 they will appear "scattered", restless, moody and hyperactive.
I will talk too much and my mind will not be able to focus. Anxiety does show on 5s too.

Search for understanding of what exactly?
I am constantly trying to understand myself and any subject that interests me really.
Maybe you do not see it and that's perfectly okay but (again) if you're just going by Mafia.

It could be an xSTP thing but I like to watch and gather information before I participate.
In Mafia you _must_ participate and this does leave me at a disadvantage.
I mean I like participating and I am reading people more than I post about.
A lot of it is in my head and I suppose I should be more outgoing in that sense.
Posting more of my thoughts that is.
I just don't have a handle on the game yet so I am hesitant.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

It's not only mafia. Your posts on perc (outside of M) primarily. However, mafia is just a more concrete example, and you especially get to see the side to you under stress. 
I'm also not arguing for six. I'm arguing for not 5,and if not 5,6 seemed the most likely head type. Proper response to post later.


----------



## Bunny

Earthious said:


> It's not only mafia. Your posts on perc (outside of M) primarily. However, mafia is just a more concrete example, and you especially get to see the side to you under stress.
> I'm also not arguing for six. I'm arguing for not 5,and if not 5,6 seemed the most likely head type. Proper response to post later.


That's fine and no problem on the wait.

You do have to understand that Sx 5 is not going to be your "typical" 5.
I am going to appear more emotional in general and I'm more about people than other 5s will be.
We're more about searching for connections with people rather than concepts. In a full.

I'm totally okay with people not thinking I'm a 5 as I said earlier. I wasn't even sure if I was one until I knew more about the social stackings.

I appear 4ish to many and I'm cool with that too and I don't mind hearing others' theories.

If I can be convinced otherwise then I'd consider another core but I have yet to be.
I'm pretty set on 5w4.


Although 8w7 has been in the back of my mind and I wonder about it but not enough to change my core type to it.
8 can actually come off pretty 6ish at times.


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> @*owlet* @*Phoenix Virtue* I was looking for thoughts on enneagram, specifically.


Tritype (5w4-4w5-1w9, maybe?), or just core type (probably 5w4)?


----------



## Bunny

I figured I'd post my response here too in case anyone else is interested in my wondering of whether 3w4 or 4w3 is in my tri-type.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ons-common-misconceptions-6.html#post29100034


----------



## thissiteisterrible

Animal said:


> I made this poll for an experiment of sorts. I'm not reconsidering my type, but curious how it will play out.  Anyone want to indulge me and cast a vote? Thanks
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/874482-animals-core-type-vote.html


well, you're definitely a 4

no need to worry about that


----------



## Animal

thissiteisterrible said:


> well, you're definitely a 4
> 
> no need to worry about that


Haha yeah - I am not actually reconsidering my core type at all. I was more curious of people's impression - specifically of wings, but also, to see what level of consensus would be reached after opening up so much over the course of 4 years on the forum. I've noticed on some celebrity typing threads there is a lack of consensus, so it's interesting to see if that changes when people actually talk to me or hear my own thoughts on enneagram. The poll is a social experiment of sorts. 

Feel free to cast a vote if you'd like. It will add data for my experiment :kitteh:


----------



## Doll

mimesis said:


> I think you're questioning yourself a little too much.


Mims!!! 

Our back and forth from back in the day has me all nostalgic.


----------



## mimesis

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> Mims!!!
> 
> Our back and forth from back in the day has me all nostalgic.


Aw, that's sweet. I actually had the same when I saw your name.


----------



## Doll

mimesis said:


> Aw, that's sweet. I actually had the same when I saw your name.


I always remember people who can hold their own in an argument.


----------



## mimesis

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> I always remember people who can hold their own in an argument.


Why thank you!

Nothing personal though. I actually think you're very pretty and charming. I can imagine you'd make a very compelling Antigone on stage.


----------



## Doll

mimesis said:


> Why thank you!
> 
> Nothing personal though. I actually think you're very pretty and charming. I can imagine you'd make a very compelling Antigone on stage.


Never anything personal, and thanks!

...wait, wait... did you know I just played Antigone? Because if not, you're a damn psychic.


----------



## mimesis

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> Never anything personal, and thanks!
> 
> ...wait, wait... did you know I just played Antigone? Because if not, you're a damn psychic.


No, just lurkin' round, heh. You mentioned it somewhere.


----------



## Doll

mimesis said:


> No, just lurkin' round, heh. You mentioned it somewhere.


I'm sure I did. It was definitely a life-changing moment. I want it back.





 
@*Rose for a Heart* - don't worry, bb. I haven't forgotten about you.


----------



## mimesis

@Daenerys Targaryen

I can imagine that! I don't know this play by Anouilh, only the classical by Sophocles. Looks good, for sure.

Do you mean this specific role? Or you want to get back on stage?


----------



## Doll

mimesis said:


> @*Daenerys Targaryen*
> 
> I can imagine that! I don't know this play by Anouilh, only the classical by Sophocles. Looks good, for sure.
> 
> Do you mean this specific role? Or you want to get back on stage?


Same basic idea, but modernized. It was a lot of fun.

This specific role. I did theater for a year straight, so I'm taking a bit of a break now. It was just nice to be cast a role so different than what I usually play... especially such an emotionally heavy role.


----------



## mimesis

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> Same basic idea, but modernized. It was a lot of fun.
> 
> This specific role. I did theater for a year straight, so I'm taking a bit of a break now. It was just nice to be cast a role so different than what I usually play... especially such an emotionally heavy role.


Yet, empowering also, I'd figure...


----------



## Doll

mimesis said:


> Yet, empowering also, I'd figure...


Definitely. It's always fun to scream at people.


----------



## mimesis

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> Definitely. It's always fun to scream at people.


Haha. sx4 must be fit for that job!


----------



## Doll

mimesis said:


> Haha. sx4 must be fit for that job!


Oh man, you have no idea!!!


----------



## Dragheart Luard

I think that I know my core, but if anyone has another options I may consider them. After all, dealing with an adjustment disorder forced me to reconsider many things that trolled me and dunno if any of this has been apparent on my posts lol


----------



## Lakigigar

@Witch of Adorableness

sorry, but i always find it hard to imagine an INFP enn 2, but i think you are one. tritype 269.

I'm not sure if i'm mistyped, if people think so, let me know.


----------



## leictreon

Lakigigar said:


> @Witch of Adorableness
> 
> sorry, but i always find it hard to imagine an INFP enn 2, but i think you are one. tritype 269.
> 
> I'm not sure if i'm mistyped, if people think so, let me know.


It's more likely that I'm a 9.


----------



## Lakigigar

Witch of Adorableness said:


> It's more likely that I'm a 9.


i can see that in you too.


----------



## courageous_soul

Haha I don't understand this thread, but I'm here because I'm constantly questioning myself  However I'm pretty sure I am an INFP and a type 4 for Enneagram. My wing is up in the air though, I'm listed as 4w5 because the test told me so but I could REALLY see 4w3. However, I've seen a lot of my 4w3 behaviors being unhealthy so that's why I'd rather not put it. Also, I don't like the idea of needing external validation because then that would require me to be *gasp* vulnerable. Then again, my tendencies to isolate myself aren't exactly healthy either... But at least I feel safe that way. I just want to be whatever type is healthiest for me so speculate away!


----------



## Saturniid

Hm.

Have at it.

I give my consent.


People generally see me as a 4w5, however I really mesh well with the reverse of this. A lot tend to assume I'm a 4 because I'm an INFP as well as an artist, but I also know 5 fixes mistype more as 4 than 4s mistype as 5s. There are also plenty of 5 artists out there as well.

I doubt anyone's very familiar with me yet, being as I've only been here an approximate handful of weeks and haven't talked to maybe more than 3-4 people on a legitimate conversational basis at most, but if anyone happens to browse this, know me, and read, I'm open to your observations.


----------



## Doll

@Dagan Eldr

I like you, so I want you to be a 4. 

All exalted teasing aside, what I've seen from you so far seems to point in that direction.


----------



## Animal

Dagan Eldr said:


> Hm.
> 
> Have at it.
> 
> I give my consent.
> 
> 
> People generally see me as a 4w5, however I really mesh well with the reverse of this. A lot tend to assume I'm a 4 because I'm an INFP as well as an artist, but I also know 5 fixes mistype more as 4 than 4s mistype as 5s. There are also plenty of 5 artists out there as well.
> 
> I doubt anyone's very familiar with me yet, being as I've only been here an approximate handful of weeks and haven't talked to maybe more than 3-4 people on a legitimate conversational basis at most, but if anyone happens to browse this, know me, and read, I'm open to your observations.


I creeped the pictures on your profile page, and holy hell, you look extremely 4ish to me. Glorious pictures too.

What points you to 5?


----------



## Saturniid

Animal said:


> I creeped the pictures on your profile page, and holy hell, you look extremely 4ish to me. Glorious pictures too.
> 
> What points you to 5?


Because of something I'm currently explaining in a questionnaire. Perhaps my view might make more sense afterward.

It will probably take me a long time to swallow my hesitation in posting it because it digs uncomfortably deep for the sake of accuracy.

And I appreciate the compliment on the photos. Thank you.


----------



## Hero of Freedom

Would I seem more 6w5 or 6w7 honestly and is so/sx accurate? When I ask a question like this also it fluctuates between wanting to discover more of my identity AND some 'security' I guess to confirm it.

Sometimes I may say things in a 'harsh' way not really intentionally if I'm that desperate to try and get a point across. Also the reason why I might mistype as an 'SP' if I'm wrong about it is because thats how I act on the outside a bit irl. If I'm 'upset' or in a bad mood I will probably have a more neutral + a bit 'less friendly' facial expression. 

But just one funny thought or thing I find funny in that situation can make me smirk and swing my mood the other way quickly for a little/some time.


----------



## Doll

Sword of Justice said:


> Do I seem more 6w5 or 6w7 honestly and is so/sx accurate?
> 
> Sometimes I may say things in a 'harsh' way not really intentionally if I'm that desperate to try and get a point across.


That alone seems more indicative of a 6w5. I imagine a 6w7 might be "lighter" and less competence oriented than a 6w5. I see a w5 as being more apt to make social blunders.

But this is also kind of a stereotype, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusion based off that.


----------



## Hero of Freedom

Doll said:


> That alone seems more indicative of a 6w5. I imagine a 6w7 might be "lighter" and less competence oriented than a 6w5. I see a w5 as being more apt to make social blunders.
> 
> But this is also kind of a stereotype, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusion based off that.


Well added in some edits to my post before btw for more detail. I only 'smirk' if feeling cheeky or have a funny thought but also at the same time its quite noticeable. I read 6w5 so/sxs are quite rare along with 4w5s in that stacking.

Most of the time even when 'not sad' my facial expression looks neutral but changes to that which is noticeable because its not seen much.

Haven't explored what my third possible type in a 'tri-type' would be yet.


----------



## Doll

Sword of Justice said:


> When I ask a question like this also it fluctuates between wanting to discover more of my identity AND some 'security' I guess to confirm it.


This is all very 6. Some people assume that identity is a buzzword of type 4, but in this context it really isn't. A 6 requires validation of themselves from others, whereas for a 4, outside validation isn't going to help them one way or the other.



> If I'm 'upset' or in a bad mood I will probably have a more neutral + a bit 'less friendly' facial expression.
> 
> But just one funny thought or thing I find funny in that situation can make me smirk and swing my mood the other way quickly for a little/some time.


I see 6w5s as being more "smirky" in general, less open, more of a question mark about what they're thinking on the inside. My friend is a 6w7 and her facial expressions can be read like a book. 

Again, this is superficial - visual typing is only one part of the puzzle, so I'd be hesitant to say YES YOU ARE 6W5, but so far I'm leaning toward that.


----------



## Hero of Freedom

And well as for my third 'tri-type', think its accurate I scored 5w6 being third highest or either 7/1/9w8 types would be more accurate? With my possible "5" it probably stops where the 'passion' to read on runs out aka when I feel like "Got what I came for" or its parts I don't find very 'interesting' nor important. 

I do kind of look for knowledge but only press on reading the parts I feel like reading, probably forget/leave out the more 'boring' parts unless I have to because they become important. Hence I might have alot of knowledge in one area but a few or several gaps from small to big there and then which are missing pieces I left out.

The description of 9w8 also seems pretty accurate at the same time to some extent.


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

I kind of wonder if 4 is actually my 2 or type and if somehow I have 5 somewhere in my tritype. My tritype I had last time was like

7w6 9w1 4w3(I am not sure about 4w3) so/sx 

I am also wondering if its sx/so (just without actual sex)
Should I do a questionn are?

I give consent if this thread is active.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Sword of Justice
I'm going to help with that question mark in your tritype: you are 1w2 fixed. one of the most blatant 1w2 fixers I've ever interacted with. even your username screams it :tongue:


----------



## James1980

Your consent is granted. Think I'm either 7w6 or 9w8 as core, both in my tri-type, maybe 4w5 last.


----------



## Parrot

Pinkieshyrose said:


> I kind of wonder if 4 is actually my 2 or type and if somehow I have 5 somewhere in my tritype. My tritype I had last time was like
> 
> 7w6 9w1 4w3(I am not sure about 4w3) so/sx
> 
> I am also wondering if its sx/so (just without actual sex)
> Should I do a questionn are?
> 
> I give consent if this thread is active.





James1980 said:


> Your consent is granted. Think I'm either 7w6 or 9w8 as core, both in my tri-type, maybe 4w5 last.


Both of you should give reasons as to how you came to those conclusions.


----------



## James1980

Thanks @Drunk Parrot. I did a questionnaire: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/910762-bouncing-around-room-chilling-out-please-type-me.html



*Why I might be 9w8*
I can think of many times when I think I have been used, or other people think I have, then other times I can feel very aggressive inside and get impatient, mostly only getting terse or raising my voice, passive aggressive etc, but also there many many time when I have not fought my corner. Now my sister says I show my anger easily, but not overtly aggressive.

Now in general I avoid conflict, particularly with people I am close to, but when I was younger I did argue allot with my sister, we sometimes argue now although really it just seems like normal talking because were both right! We sometimes have a heated debate and sometimes I deflect it to a different topic. I did have a slanging match with a financial advisor last year about my mortgage application. I can remember times I have lost my cool and sworn or shouted at people during my teens and 20s, although not often, maybe every few months. I switch between calm and easy going and neurotic although not always obvious on the surface, most people think I'm always happy. I'm a massive social chameleon, like I get on with people of all walks of life. Having said that the people I form relationships with seem to be mostly NT and NF, same kind of liberal and somewhat transgressive views. I'm crap at small talk lol, just zone out.

Never be aware of merging with others, going with the flow yes. Absorbing positive energy absolutely. I have very good 1 to 1 interpersonal skills, I can sell myself and use spin within what I deem to be authentic, but equally I can be self effacing. But when I do sell myself and win a job I'm like woo ho!

I don't feel like a 9 because I don't like routine, get bored easily, am quite self conscious and there are other contradictions, particularly that I identify with 7 so strongly;

*Why I'm 7w6 sx/so*
I go to places on my own to make friends, or with friends. I probably have ADHD and have massive amounts of energy and enthusiasm at times and can be very gregarious or more subtle, I do have a crazy imagination. I have been described as endearing, odd, eccentric, intense and I'm often really excited, like jumping up and down excited, talking and being friendly to everyone, its amazing to be alive.

Although I do have a longing for a stable relationship, I always have a longing for something, even I have everything I will have a longing. 

In my early twenties I had a very strange phase when either there was repulsion or attraction forces depending on who I met at college or university, that does not happen now as I know who to engage with to make friends and have intense conversation and debate. I can sometimes monopolize conversation.

I occasional I got involved with play fighting, rough and tumble, rebellious behaviours at school, although I can only think of half a dozen examples, mostly I was well behaved, but mischievous occasionally. There are rare exceptions; I was expelled from school when I was five. I have tried lots of extreme sports, visited over 30 countries, had trips where I have crammed in way to much and thought, oh I should have done less and appreciated the experience more.

I have been to India and just jumped into it not with rose tinted glasses exactly, but maybe naïve at times, but everyday feels like an adventure and I took some risks, taking long train and bus journeys on bus and train crammed with people just like on the TV! Going on the back of a motor bike with no helmet!

I have allot of problems with staying on track sometimes and am very scattered, but when I'm focused I become very productive.

The reason I might not be a 7 is because they appear to be portrayed as more manipulative than I think I am, but manipulative or assertive is such a grey area, like being assertive for pleasure, yeah I can do that, but how much so to be a 7? There are times when I have been manipulative without realizing it, but don't we all do that? To maintain harmony for me, but sometimes to escape someone boring or toxic, I can only think of one clear example of ghosting, I mentioned it in another thread.

Then there is 6, I sort of identify with 6 in the sense of I often have a dynamic tension inside, like I want have fun, but then feel guilty for mot doing something I should have done, like I'm writing this now at 2:30 in the morning when I have work to do tomorrow. I'm going to Viet nam for 4 weeks when maybe I should be looking for my next project. 

I get anxiety allot, sometimes valid things, but mostly for no reason or silly things, difficult to describe.

*Why I'm 4w5 *

Well my heart fix might be a bit more difficult to get, even though I used to think I might be a 4w3. I have looked at type 2 and 3 and don't really see much of me in either, but 4 I do. Whenever I'm in introspection about memories from the past it always makes me feel really sad, the time when I was bullied at school, various jobs and relationships that have not worked out, I have be fired many times. I don't hang around in melancholy very long, a few days tops, but then I want to be alone and sulk, then once its done I can escape into a world of pleasure and future fantasy, but the feeling of different does feel like a backdrop to my life allot and its always reinforced when I make a mistake that is usually trying to finish a project when doing dreaded details or being pigeon-holed, or when a girl friend does not understand my slight craziness sometimes, but I accept I'm not perfect and I'm weird and you can't be happy all the time.

I can be objective and analytical for a time, I love doing research projects for the shear fun of it, sometimes I think the human race sucks and what is the point. 

And I have read up on the “gentle spirit” tri-type and it kind of makes sense, my base level is more often positive outlook.

I do get envious and sometimes I look down on people, although weirdly I look down on people who are successful because I assume they are shallow and narcissistic for example, but maybe it is just me trying to rationalize my own failure to recognize my own envy. Then there is envy of friendship I don't have or seeing others being happy when I'm not, although not often, but its weird so I try to rationalize it and detach from it. Other sadness like the death of my father or a break up I embrace and can enhance it and be empathetic with others, I feel very deeply.

But I have always had a feeling of being a square peg in a round hole at the same times as being creative and / or very knowledgeable in some areas. I hated school at times and felt desperately alienated as was bullied between 11-14 and was a loner a times, or *felt left out, although I did have some friends. I remember being completely miserable and crying myself to sleep and fearing death which is really weird, like maybe it was just a phase, but I think my childhood sadness has shaped me, although mostly my childhood was good in a loving family. I added a reply in my questionnaire relating to my childhood and early twenties, which is quite revealing. 

I looked at 7-9-3, feels allot more success driven, confident and self assertive than I feel, I looked into 7-9-2 but I can't think of many times when I was going full steam to help others in a practical and ingratiating way like a 2 does, the times I help others is generally when asked and I don't expect anything back, maybe I could be a bit clingy when I was younger when I was lonely or sad.

I do feel like I'm bouncing around like a yo-yo. Like I can pick any event in my life and relate it to a particular type. but I don't mind having contradictions as it makes me more interesting to be me. Problems is my own perception of myself is different from everyone else’s and I hide most of the negative and push the positive, most of the stuff in my head is so bonkers I don't share it with anyone! Most of it intriguing. Even after writing all this I keep on seeing contradictions, have I over exaggerated some qualities for example to make my self seem more colourful and rebellious than I actually am, because I want to identify that way. Weirdly I'm not ashamed of being expelled as it makes a good story, there are plenty of things I am ashamed of. 

Maybe I'm just writing all the most interesting stuff down because the stuff in-between would make me seem boring, but no one would ever describe me as boring, anything but!


----------



## Parrot

@James1980 I get 7w6 9w8 4w3 from all that. If you think sx/so fits, then go with it. Don't assume having the random 5 wing with 4 makes you analytical. Being a 7 makes you analytical at times as integration is to 5. That fact that you see some 3 aspects is why I'd suggest 4w3.


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Drunk Parrot said:


> Both of you should give reasons as to how you came to those conclusions.


The biggest fear I have is to not to be capable the biggest desire is to be capable.
I am very extreme person which is normally vulnerable and revealing wanting intimacy even though I have a filter and am introverted. So/sx works too though. I try to be seen and have the attention even. Showing more and more my more beautiful quality's. The problem is I am very 7 like so I don't know what fix is that. 0.o


----------



## Parrot

Pinkieshyrose said:


> The biggest fear I have is to not to be capable the biggest desire is to be capable.
> I am very extreme person which is normally vulnerable and revealing wanting intimacy even though I have a filter and am introverted. So/sx works too though. I try to be seen and have the attention even. Showing more and more my more beautiful quality's. The problem is I am very 7 like so I don't know what fix is that. 0.o


Fix would be 3w4 I'm thinking, maybe 3w2. How about your gut fix? How do you react in anger/conflict situations?


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## Pinkieshyrose

Drunk Parrot said:


> Fix would be 3w4 I'm thinking, maybe 3w2. How about your gut fix? How do you react in anger/conflict situations?


I don't think I am a 3. I think I always considered myself a 4 in some way. When I was little I didn't have a fear of being worthless and now I don't know not really. I mean I know no ones worthless to me at least. Its more I am afraid my identify is not enough or I am incapable or I am too much for others. I only feel worthless when I am worse emotionally. https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-3/ I am not usually the person voted for and hate popularity. I like being with people but I am also fairly introverted and am more loyal the extroverted once in a while. I don't like popularity because there usually normal and mean even there's some really nice popular people. Also the party's they go to normally involve drinking, alcohol, drugs, crime and hurting other people. I have never been voted for anything. I usually feel worthwhile though I seek positivity because I hate everyone hating me at once. I try to authentic but still evolve. I really relate to the dog metaphor in the enneagram 4 type.
The dog dragging pain around and not letting go because secretly it likes the pain just a little and also wants to let go. Also the kaleidoscope metaphor.

I have a habit of keeping pain. I never let go of all pain for a extended time. I accept but don't let go. Mostly. I try to be unique without coping but sometimes it still seems like I am. I try to come up with individual ideas. Lately I haven't been doing homework because something emotionally affected me that day and I try to let go but then its nighttime. I fell in love with someone a unrequited love for 3 years. I still like him... I hold on to depression somewhat. I even with my other infp friends seem to Add to dictionary taste in characters and movies. I hold on to bad memory and have to write them in my journal.

In anger and conflict it depends is it my conflict or other conflict?

If its my conflict I try to run away from the conversation but then realize that wont work at this time. Skip the subject if it bothers me. sometimes I lose it get equally or more angry at the person. Though I am not usually angered. ,more so now because I think repressed my anger, I don't like anger and I am pretty "chill". My family drives me crazy though beside my Dad. Mostly because they refuse to believe what I say, treat me like a kid or in my brothers case call me mean names. Normally I try to use more childish means of "punishing my brother" ie- doing something marking him with markers in front of his skype friends, throwing cold tea at him. Throwing water. Rationalizing. Taking his threats serious. I will argue with my family but they don't listen so doing something else usually works. I argue with my friends but sometimes I can't make it seem logical so I just stop or come back to it later. Normally I shut up. I like arguments but only ones where both people are having fun.

With my friend and a friend I wanna run. I try to calm them down if I think I can. Doesn't normally work. I just sit there waiting. sometimes I agree with other person for a moment. then if someone runs from the table I bolt realizing that's a option sometimes I come back I try to protect people sometimes that seem vulnerable in the situation. Normally waiting till later if I can. I try to let them vent after that seems to work. If its like a hurricane /power outage or something I am usually very calm. Somehow knowing while they flail only wishing for internet and lights. Sometimes I am really bored because I want food.


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## Parrot

@Pinkieshyrose your motivations will come from 7. 3 & 9 fix are just how you act in certain situations. 4 instead of 3 if you're more in tune with depth and shame.


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Drunk Parrot said:


> @*Pinkieshyrose* your motivations will come from 7. 3 & 9 fix are just how you act in certain situations. 4 instead of 3 if you're more in tune with depth and shame.


I still don't think I am a 7 I never do I am more concerned with 5s fear and all my actions motivate it or I run away from it because I am too afraid to do anything about it. Most of my thoughts are. Am I going to get smarter Will I get smarter. I won't get smarter growth mindset, I am too dumb to do this but I want to, I am incapable of everything. am I incapable? That's most of my thoughts other then ne plans or trying to let go of depression. Once in a while I think about flowers or plan my book or think of ideas to draw or try to argue different ideas.


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## James1980

Drunk Parrot said:


> @James1980 I get 7w6 9w8 4w3 from all that. If you think sx/so fits, then go with it. Don't assume having the random 5 wing with 4 makes you analytical. Being a 7 makes you analytical at times as integration is to 5. That fact that you see some 3 aspects is why I'd suggest 4w3.


I agree, thanks for your comments. The 3 connection makes sense, I have always been interested in how stuff works, very much an interest rather than a need.


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## galactic collision

I'm really unhealthy right now so this probably isn't the time to try to type myself but sometimes I wonder if I'm actually a 9-fixed 6w7 instead of a 1-fixed 7w6. I've been gone from this forum long enough that I don't expect anyone to remember my personality well enough to be able to point me in the right direction, but on the offchance that someone does remember me or want to help... ja


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## Dragheart Luard

I'm only sure for now of having a good amount of type 7 and 8 influence, so if anyone has any suggestion feel free to dissect anything. Still I think that my tritype is 784 in some order but I'm reevaluating my core for now as therapy has showed that my anxiety was actually a biological problem caused by stress and studying too much.


----------



## OP

I'm really confused and open to any suggestions.

- I'm pretty sure my core type is 5, but I can't decide which wing I have. Maybe I could be a 9.
- Am I so/sp or sp/so?
- Am I 593, 594, or something else? I've heard that many people mistype as triple withdrawn...


I answered some questionnaires a while ago: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...utally-honest-responses-2-questionnaires.html


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## Paradigm

Bismuth said:


> I'm really confused and open to any suggestions.
> 
> - I'm pretty sure my core type is 5, but I can't decide which wing I have. Maybe I could be a 9.
> - Am I so/sp or sp/so?
> - Am I 593, 594, or something else? I've heard that many people mistype as triple withdrawn...
> 
> 
> I answered some questionnaires a while ago: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...utally-honest-responses-2-questionnaires.html


I don't see _any_ "competency" in your questionnaire, I'm sorry :sad: Absolutely no power-hungriness, either. So... I really doubt you're a 5. And I doubt you even have a 5 fix, for that matter.

Sorry :\

9w1 - 6w7 as starting points seem likely. SP/SO seems more likely than SO/SP, but I'm not actually that up to date on SO/SP 9. I'll look that up for you in a bit. 

Your heart fix could go a lot of different ways. 4w5 probably fits your idealized version of yourself. 2 fits several of your answers, though, and it can (very rarely) be mistaken for 5's place in the "power" triad. 

I'll read your answers more in-depth, as this is all pretty rough.

*PS I'm really blunt like you're saying you are in your questionnaire, don't hurt me >_>

Edit: I went through your thing.


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## o0india0o

I probably don't have time for this anymore (*Motherhood is all I dreamed it would be & more*;; but also, crazy busy_*!*_), but I think I have decided I am a type 4 (for anyone who remembers me from a year or two ago). It's giving me an existential crisis of identity.

Just logged back on to announce that 
(_because I don't know where else, or who else I would discuss that with, ha ha_). :encouragement:

That is all.


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## Paradigm

o0india0o said:


> I probably don't have time for this anymore (*Motherhood is all I dreamed it would be & more*;; but also, crazy busy_*!*_), but I think I have decided I am a type 4 (for anyone who remembers me from a year or two ago). It's giving me an existential crisis of identity.
> 
> Just logged back on to announce that
> (_because I don't know where else, or who else I would discuss that with, ha ha_). :encouragement:
> 
> That is all.


You always struck me as either a 2 or a 7. But given it's been _years_, I've utterly forgotten any specifics of why.


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## Coburn

o0india0o said:


> I probably don't have time for this anymore (*Motherhood is all I dreamed it would be & more*;; but also, crazy busy_*!*_), but I think I have decided I am a type 4 (for anyone who remembers me from a year or two ago). It's giving me an existential crisis of identity.
> 
> Just logged back on to announce that
> (_because I don't know where else, or who else I would discuss that with, ha ha_). :encouragement:
> 
> That is all.


I do remember you. Glad to hear you've been enjoying motherhood. Best of luck to you in life.


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## o0india0o

So, I have ***_mostly_*** decided*.*

I have made some edits to my personality (or interpretation of my identity - so to speak).

I recognize that almost no one on these forums has seen this side of me (& I wish I had the time to defend, explain, and then listen to feedback;; maybe one of these weekends), but I still feel a pull to announce it.

This article comparing and contrasting 4w3 ENFP with 7w6 ENFP really helped me process all of it:

The Enneagram Blogspot: New! 4w3 vs. 7w6 - Misidentifying

I'm still leaving 7w6 in my tritype. I think it's a part of me. But I'm making 4w3 my primary type, as that's what I care about the most, since we have aspects of all the Enneagram types in our personality. I really see tritype as simply a "Top 3" chart, and I care most about primary identity.

I also tacked on a 9w1 (& dropped the 1w2). Swordsman of Mana (no idea if he still haunts these forums, or goes by that name), I am embracing your gut-typing of me. :friendly_wink:
(I'm sure you don't care, but there it is anyways) layful:
*
4w3 7w6 9w1 xNFx*


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## Brains

@o0india0o you've always struck me as a positive outlook type, 4 feels very, very much off. The bleak not-enough vibe of the types at the bottom is just unfitting. Your air is a good bit more in the vein of things being okay.


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## Shadow Tag

Tacking my name onto this. Mostly about instincts, but if anyone disagrees about 9, let's hash it out. :] I know a person or two thinks 6 could work, though I think that I come off as 9. Anyway...

sp/so or so/sp. sx-last is pretty much set in stone, unless I'm 150% wrong about the sexual instinct. But anyway, I am curious to know how I come off to others. I'm not a fan of the "I relate to the idea this consciously, so I must be X" typing style. We lie to ourselves and filter too much out in order to create an ideal self. And I don't think that I can separate that all the time from my real vibe. So... I want to know what I present to others on PerC without me even realizing it. So help a friend out? :] But, unless I'm missing something, there seems to be a world of difference between myself and other 9s on the forum who type as sp/so, or at least sp-first.


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## Paradigm

o0india0o said:


> I have made some edits to my personality (or interpretation of my identity - so to speak).
> I recognize that almost no one on these forums has seen this side of me (& I wish I had the time to defend, explain, and then listen to feedback;; maybe one of these weekends), but I still feel a pull to announce it.


Hey there  Are you referring to the depressive aspects of 4, maybe? You're very vague, so I can't tell... But that could be, um, other things. Like depression and such.

Anyway, I'm not at all insinuating anything bad, I promise. I, personally, hold no stigma towards mental illnesses, but I know it can be very hard to talk about or even hear. And I'm not even saying that has to be why you're relating to 4, as there are countless reasons one may. Just more like, if that's why, then I'm here to listen 

Gotta agree with @Brains, you ooze positivity type and always have. It's why I listed 2 or 7 for you!


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## o0india0o

Hi @Paradigm *!* :smile-new:

Thank you so much for reaching out; I was really touched by it.

I am not depressed (or referencing depression; though I've been depressed before in my lifetime), that's actually the one aspect I don't relate to about Type 4 (the darkness, or at least seeking out broody things). I will be there for others in their darkness, and I'm not afraid of expressing or experiencing my own dark emotions (though these mostly came up when I was a child, in my abusive home), but I don't go out of my way to be dark, or seek out darkness.

The "side of me" I was referencing was pretty much...everything I guess. All I am on PerC is a 2-dimensional comedian (at least that's how I imagine I must come across). I wasn't trying to fool anyone per say; I was being authentic to myself (just not bringing my whole self to the table). I do this in life in general, mostly because I believe that the private, inner-most part of me will repulse people. People like the comedian, so that's what I give them (except for a few "rescuers" I pull in, and other people I feel safe with).

I will try to write more about it, but I feel pretty confident at this point (& again, realize this would be a shock to most on the forums). I just sort of wanted to proclaim it, like coming out of the closet. It's a part of me that has always been there, but I sort of rejected, because my abusive parents would physically and emotionally harm me for those aspects of myself.

In grade school, when I would reveal I was a cutter (would cut myself to ribbons), people would ask me, "are you sure?" (even when they could see all the scars and cuts on my arms). I present the happy parts of myself, and reject the others parts (in some sense).

When I was a small child, I was a loner. I relate a lot to the character Lilo from the movie "Lilo & Stitch". I would play by myself, and look for small beautiful objects, take walks by myself and talk to myself. I had short hair, because I wanted to be a boy. Boys had more freedom. I would get ridiculed for my hair, and for being myself. I always assumed there was something wrong with me, and this is why I didn't fit in.

I came from an abusive household, and my parents out-right told me that my emotions were wrong, that my sensitivity was bad, that my dark poetry was grotesque (oh yeah, I wrote a lot of dark poetry to cope with the abuse in my household). There was a lifelong type 3w2 friend I had (I've written about him on the forums), I would call him in crisis (I only ever relied on one or two other individuals for emotional support - I worried about abandonment, and tested this friend for years; I still sometimes worry he'll leave after one of my crazy emotional outbursts). I would think about killing myself a lot, and I would cut, and I would think about everything that was wrong with me and how much I hated myself. I would repeat what my parents told me, and part of my cutting was because I hated them, but didn't feel like I could tell them my feelings (so for some reason, I hated myself instead).

I would write and listen to music that reinforced the emotional states I was in. The emotions were painful, and for some reason I thought feeling them would help me process them, but mostly I would just get consumed by them & drown. It felt like being eaten alive by your emotions, and yet I found it really addictive (to feel the intense emotions). It was like a submarine that dove too deep into the water, and got impacted into itself like a tin can: crushed. It was my own personal hell. I was so self-focused and consumed by my feelings, my problems, the abuse of my household, my experiences.

When I met my 7w6 friend (whom I have also discussed on the forums), it felt like relief. I had always had my own sense of humor, but she really taught me how to laugh at life and be happy. I embraced that way of being, and really picked myself up in a lot of ways. I never wanted to be consumed or drowned by my feelings again, and in many ways, spent years embracing only happiness (I mean, I still got sad and stuff, but it wasn't "me", only happiness was).

I cry under the bed when I'm upset. My husband has to fish me out. Either that, or I lock myself in dark closets and crawl behind the clothes and closet things. I'm a bowl full of crazy, wrapped in a girl-next-door package. I size up a guy when I would meet them, to figure out whether they could handle me (because I recognize the outside is appealing, but I feel like my secret, private, inside life is difficult and not for the faint of heart). When I was pregnant, I cried on the floor next to the bed, because I couldn't fit underneath it. :laughing:

The core motivations for the Type 4 ring true for me (which is why I don't feel as ambivalent, and question-y like I did with the Type 7); although, I don't understand everything about Type 4 yet (as it was the only type I refused to read much about, because I didn't want to be a Type 4, and it was everything my parents hated, and everything I was taught to hate about myself), so the fact that I'm not super dark confuses me too. But, I've met other positive Type 4's, so I'm sure as I do more research, there will be an explanation (perhaps the 3 wing).

I went to art school in college (after completing my psychology major, and deciding I wanted to do art instead), and I looked down on everyone there (which I'm ashamed to admit). I thought everyone there was dark, and dramatic; everything my parents hated in me, and I hated in myself. I distinguished myself as unique, alone, and different, because I was the only "positive" person there. Ironically, when I look back now, I might have been able to meet some really cool people, and felt less alone. People who shared my feelings and ideals.

I have always seen my intense emotions as a super power. I feel special for them, but also different, and alone. I feel like no one understands me (although, sometimes I feel like the rescuers I pull in understand me at times). My husband avoids driving by the pet store, because there are rescue cats in the windows, and I get too sad. I stop to move turtles off the road.

The way I (usually) write my posts on PerC has a lot of editing and finessing of the text. A Type 7 would _never_ do that (sorry, "_not likely_"; never say never, right?); the Type 7's I know barely check their spelling and grammar. I do it to more fully express myself and my ideas; I also care a great deal about the aesthetics of what I write.

Beauty is important to me, and I go out of my way to create it in our home, in my art, in my writing, in my posts on PerC.
This post has been pretty ugly, because I don't have time with a baby, but I couldn't help myself (I feel misunderstood, and I literally was up at night thinking about it).

My feelings get hurt easily. I have cried (multiple times) from things people on PerC have said. I care a great deal. I hate feeling misunderstood. & I haven't shared this side of me or my history with anyone on here, because I assumed everyone would be repulsed by anything but the happiness & comedian (which I recognize probably annoyed a lot of people on here, but what are you going to do*?* :idunno I felt alone on PerC, and I didn't feel like I fit in (just like in the real world). But, people have been PM'ing me since I left, telling me that they liked my posts and contributions, and I'm realizing that maybe that wasn't true. For everyone that's shown me love: Thank You. You have no idea how personally I absorb that, and how much it means to me.

So. I'm going to leave this mess here.


----------



## o0india0o

Oh, AND!

Something about motherhood, is a large part of what triggered my ability to take a peek at the other aspects of me I was ignoring. Somehow, caring for another human being, and focusing on someone besides myself, helped me find myself. I don't really understand it, but once I stopped fixating on myself, and started caring for my son, I began to accept more of myself and see more of myself. Motherhood has been good for me, and I hope to only continue to get healthier.


----------



## Paradigm

@o0india0o 

Thank you so much for sharing  I'm not going to go against anything you said, as it was all deeply personal and very self-aware. You're great, really.

I do have one minor question, and it'll _seem_ like going against but I'm really not: What if you were a 2 that is integrating to 4? Your story is different from most 2s, I'll admit, and what you describe seems a little reactive in itself which does suggest 4. But it was just a minor thought I had; beyond mentioning 2 (or any other type) again right now, I won't force it upon you! I just wondered if some 2 things got lost in the summary - only superhumans can accurately summarize their entire life in one post, I think 

PS: I do the "edit endlessly" thing, too.


----------



## o0india0o

Paradigm said:


> @o0india0o
> 
> Thank you so much for sharing  I'm not going to go against anything you said, as it was all deeply personal and very self-aware. You're great, really.
> 
> I do have one minor question, and it'll _seem_ like going against but I'm really not: What if you were a 2 that is integrating to 4? Your story is different from most 2s, I'll admit, and what you describe seems a little reactive in itself which does suggest 4. But it was just a minor thought I had; beyond mentioning 2 (or any other type) again right now, I won't force it upon you! I just wondered if some 2 things got lost in the summary - only superhumans can accurately summarize their entire life in one post, I think
> 
> PS: I do the "edit endlessly" thing, too.


Thanks*!*

I will consider it;; but I've never related to Type 2 much. As a kid, I did like to help people in emotional crisis, and sometimes animals - but I don't feel beholden to it, and it's not a big part of my life.

Also, I forgot to add (which was a part of my mental, running dialogue last night, when I was thinking about feeling misunderstood, ha) that I relate most (first and foremost) to Reactive Harmonic approach. This has come up in other posts when I was contemplating & questioning my type (too pressed for time to find them at the moment), and is what made some consider Type 6 for me (among other things). Which was compelling, and I do relate some to Type 6; however, not primary (especially after having more Type 6's in my life, and seeing them in person). It was another piece that always made me question Type 7, but I chalked it up to the 6 wing, along with being SX-primary. I do relate to being positive, but *definitely* reactive. Anyone who knows me irl would for sure attest to that (to an embarrassing degree; at least I feel a bit embarrassed, and ashamed by it). I've never changed the quote in my signature since my joining of PerC; it expresses my reactivity, and such.

last, I want to be clear, that I don't understand a ton about Type 4's, and while I do think some of what I wrote aligns with Type 4: I have no idea what I'm doing. I was simply trying to write a lot of random facts that kind-of-sort-of explain me (in no specific order), and is by no means extensive, ha.


----------



## Brains

@o0india0o Sorry to be contrary, but that is not Fourish. Someone who's been through a lot and has baggage, but not Four. All image types have a need to be seen some way - with Threes, it is the image of a winner. They are better than you because they are the resplendent, perfect victors. With the Four, they like Fives are an overthinking type, but instead of a dry detachment used for system building, they feel a lot of stuff, obsessively mull over those feelings and build them into symbols of themselves. Symbols that have to be shown, made into an image of how they view themselves for others to see. In contrast to Threes' thorough, smooth polishedness and success, that image is typically one of macabre defect, but also one that confers on the Four the feeling of unique specialness. They flaunt the defect.

In the above, this is nowhere as far as I can see. You say that it is there, but hidden behind a pretty girl next door facade, not shown to the world insistently. They are special, the rest are shallow, plebeian rabble.


----------



## Immolate

Feel free.


----------



## o0india0o

@Brains

I don't mind you being contrary.

& Again, I have a lot of research to do on Type 4's, so I do not begin to proclaim that what I stated was Type 4-ish (though I assumed some of it might be). I was giving random snap-shots about my life, in hopes that some of it was helpful (or at least adds more depth than "positive comedian" archetype). Since I don't understand the Type 4 implicitly, I'm just shooting in the dark with my examples.

I feel like you could pick a part everything I present to you though. At no point did anyone actually make a substantial argument for Type 7, other than I came across as positive. I think people were a bit blinded by the light (so-to-speak, ha). & while I understand a lot of Type 4's are dark, I know a handful that are not. I do relate to myself through my defects, though I'm not likely to flaunt these.

I know that I relate to the reactive harmonic group primary, so that would put Type 6 back in the running (definitely not Type 8;; at least from my understanding of them).

I based my whole premise for Type 7 off of being up-beat and positive, and liking to enjoy activities in life. That's hella' superficial, and little to do with the primary motivation. I think no one minded, because I stood out as such. But, you can get nit picky about any of them, and pick, and pick, until there is nothing left (but abstract reasoning).

From everything I read from the article comparing ENFP Type 4 to ENFP Type 7;; Type 4 seemed like a fit.

I also relate to the Type 9 & Type 4 relationship dynamic. Again, you could say: well that's because Type 4 is in your tritype. *shrug* You could say that, idk. But, if you're looking at core motivations (from my understanding of all of them), then Type 4 fits the most. All the picking at the relationship between me and my husband I do on the forums, I realized sounds a lot like the Type 4 issues with idealizing relationships, and then becoming critical of their partner. Also, wanting more from the Type 9 and complaining.

It explains my strong connection to Type 1 (which 7's also have, but I relate less to the explanations of their connection to Type 1).

I want emotions and intensity all the time - before I excused that as the SX instinct, (& it's true that while I know a lot of Type 7's, I don't know any Type 7 SX's irl) but that seems off. 

I process experiences emotionally constantly. That's my primary reason for living in a lot of ways. I will ask my husband: "What are you thinking? What are you feeling?" (I wouldn't have to ask if he would just tell me, but as a Type 9, he doesn't); I ask during our experiences, after our experiences. It's what most of our conversations are about. Emotions, feelings, etc... If that can be a part of any type, then I guess that's something to discuss. But I live for emotions and feelings. I care most about deep connections and expressing myself. Is that just SX? Would an SX Type 7 do that?

Also, while yes, I have gone through sh*t in my life (& this is how I rationalized it before). Something (I believe it was SoM) asked me, was about the falling a part through the health levels piece. It didn't look Type 7-ish. I didn't engage in more and more activity. My uncle, who is a type 7w8, dealt with trauma as a child by partying, drinking, and becoming more excessive. That didn't fit with me. & I would reason it would, if I were a Type 7. The types I said I related to the most as I fell a part, was Type 9 and Type 4 (& sometimes Type 6). So, that didn't fit either.

Also, all the problems Type 4's have (as I've been reading them), read embarrassingly like me. As a Type 7, I felt safe, because if I was a Type 7, I would have been the most healthy Type 7 ever, (lol). I don't really have or relate to the issues Type 7's have or experience, so it felt pretty [email protected] good to be a Type 7, ha. I didn't understand what all the fuss was about, about Enneagram being painful or revealing things to work on. I brushed this off as well, as health level. But, when I read about the Type 4 issues, it hurts, and it hits home in a way that makes me panic and feel defective (& want to jump ship on being a Type 4, and switch to anything else). I guess, again, you could say that's a Tritype thing, so I would be able to relate, idk. But, there's that.

Last, let me be clear, I'm not insistent, or "insistently" trying to convince anyone. I don't care if you believe me or not, (lol). Well, it drives me a bit batty to be misunderstood, but I feel much more confident about this (& I'm looking for less approval and guidance than I was with the Type 7 self-typing). This is for my own health, and personal development. I only announced it, because it felt therapeutic for me. While I have never minded being open-minded, and discussing things (out of my own curiosity, and desire to get things "right"), I am not interested in arguing or "convincing" you. If you want to help, that's fine, or talk things out with me to help me get better clarity: that's cool.

Your first post was very sensitive and gentle, and I genuinely appreciated that. I'm not saying you have to be gentle, but I just want to acknowledge that I noticed that, and appreciated that.

But I have no interest in a debate, and I don't feel any obligation to convince anyone. Hell, there were still people that didn't think I was a Type 7. (lol) You're never going to please everyone, and not everyone's going to believe or understand (as much as that bugs me and gets under my skin). If you want to ask questions, and help me get clear (I don't know that I have the time for that), but I might entertain that idea- but in no way am I trying to convince you. I was simply having a discussion.


----------



## Paradigm

o0india0o said:


> I will consider it;; but I've never related to Type 2 much. As a kid, I did like to help people in emotional crisis, and sometimes animals - but I don't feel beholden to it, and it's not a big part of my life.
> 
> [...] I relate most (first and foremost) to Reactive Harmonic approach. [...] It was another piece that always made me question Type 7, but I chalked it up to the 6 wing, along with being SX-primary. I do relate to being positive, but *definitely* reactive.


I don't know much about 2s - I'm not sure many around here do, and so few self-type as such - but I wonder if SX 2 could mimic reactive triad. 

Have you seen Friends? I type Ross at SP/SX 2w3, but he _looks_ reactive as hell. I think part of it is just the sitcom tropes... Most people type him at 6, to me he's very 2ish but without the stereotypical 2ness of helping everything in sight. Most of the things he does tends to revolve around the power triad and being Loved by his selective people.

(Note: I tend to come off as pushing types on people, but to me this is _exploring theory_ rather than pushing something on you. Sorry, tell me to stop if it's annoying.)

I know @kaleidoscope used to type at 4 and changed to 2, but I'm not sure if/when/where she posted about it. Maybe she could weigh in if you're open to hearing more perspectives.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@o0india0o
(You already have someone else commenting on your type, and I don't know you, so no idea what your type is, but) One thing to think about is why you did feel compelled to act like a positive character in the first place. Of course it sucks when that's the only thing people see in you, when there is more to you than that, but why did you present that face to the world? I think... type 4 isn't necessarily the only type that can feel defective, but it's what they build their image around. So they might not be open about _everything_ (like most people), but they tend to be open about their defects, things they didn't feel accepted for, as their reactivity revolves around attaining an "authentic" connection through baring who they "truly are." That's how I understand it, anyway. 

As for 2 and reactivity, I think it depends on what's meant by reactivity. With 2, they do also want to connect, and can be quite emotional. I mean, they want to be lovable, but to feel really _loved _there's a need to break through any emotional boundaries (goes with line to 8) in order to possess someone's heart. Which might look similar to reactivity.


----------



## o0india0o

@Distortions

That's a *really* good question (the bit about why I was compelled to present positively), & something I've been incessantly mulling over the last past few days. Considering changing types is giving me a bit of an identity crisis, and I feel like I don't know myself anymore (when I tended to pride myself on being quite self aware).

irl I'm not nearly as positive and happy-go-lucky as I present on the forums. It's a lot easier to do [on the forums], and I found it enjoyable. When I was little, I was introverted, kept to myself, felt defective, was very introspective, and had only 1 or 2 close friends (& was probably quite depressed). In about middle school, I flipped a switch (around the time I met my 7w6 friend; I also got diagnosed as A.D.D. and got on medication, so some of my social and educational skills got better, and thus a bit of a boost in self-confidence). I liked my 7w6 friend, and how she could laugh at everything, and turn embarrassing moments in to a good story, etc... I admired that, and wanted to be that. It felt good to be those things too. People also seemed to like those things (& I instinctively understood they wouldn't like the melancholy, cutting, depressed self; which I hid from everyone except for a few male "rescuer" types, that I drew in by playing a sort of cat-and-mouse type game). So, my public life became happy (although, I am also known for my intellectualism, deep thinking, creativity, good & thought provoking questions, individualism, ability to beat to the sound of my own drum, courage, self-awareness, and sense of fun and adventure). Most people don't see the peppy and crazy side of me unless I feel comfortable around them, or I know them well, or something naturally "clicks" (which might be the SX-instinct that I'm describing, idk). Otherwise, even to this day, I come across more quirky, inquisitive, shy, under-confident, challenging of authority, individualistic, courageous, strong-willed, creative, good listener, good advice giver, more serious at times (but can be hilarious and quick witted). Basically, I am very selective with who I show my lowest lows to, and my highest highs. I have no control over the outrageous "high" part; I just have to feel comfortable and "click" with that person. However, the lowest lows, I curate;; I select individuals who I understand and know I won't scare off. I use to test people (& they were usually men; I don't know why, but females tend not to step in to the "rescuer" role), but I have since grown out of that, and worry less that people will leave me (& just wait until I feel they are someone I can trust; although, that hasn't happened in many years; thus, I rarely get rid of friends, and have kept most of my friends for 10+ years).

Anyways, your original question. It felt good to be positive. & most importantly, I want to be _SEEN_ as positive, funny, humorous: everything a Type 7 is. It would feel bad or defective to be everything a Type 4 is (this is mostly instructed from my parents, and their views of these behaviors and personality traits, but also society). Defective traits: introvertedness, shyness, intellectualism, emotions, interest in emotions, emotional, reactive, not in control, dark, strange, pushing people (being a "pusher"), questioning, challenging, not listening to authority, art, sensitive. These are all traits that I am, and all traits my parents hated about me. While I use to pride myself in "keeping myself" (even when my parents beat me), I have rejected more of myself than I ever realized or imagined. However, I do give myself props for still staying quite true to myself, but I am disappointed that I have come to find more of my own traits grotesque than I prior believed (a case of conditioning I guess). I still tend to bring all of these things to the table in one way or another, but I ignored these aspects of my personality, in favor of the personality traits and identity I wanted to be: a Type 7.

When I'm honest with myself (& stop filtering my ideas), I recognize that the Type 7 is not a fit, and is quite wrong (not necessarily in some outward behaviors, but at core needs and functions). This makes me _extremely_ anxious, and feel *overwhelmed*, as now I don't know who I am, and I thought I did (& always prided myself on such).

Oh (kind of side-track), but the reason I was positive and fluffy on the forums, was simply because it was fun. & Also, I liked the validation I got about being a Type 7, it further reinforced my ideas about myself, and that felt good. People in real life don't usually type me at 7, as it's a bit easier to be outgoing and such online (though I am, and always have been excitable and positive).

I hope all of this makes sense. & I appreciate everyone's help and input (even if at times, it seems like I'm being a bit reactive and defensive; I apologize).


----------



## owlet

@*lets mosey* How about type 1 for you instead of 5? 

@*o0india0o* From what you've said, I don't think there's too much reason to doubt type 4 for you!


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## o0india0o

This may sound like a dumb (& rude) question, but:

Can Type 4's be happy*?*

All of the Type 4 descriptions sound so depressed, it appears as though depression manifest in human form is their personality. I relate to a lot of the content of Type 4 descriptions, but even many of the Type 4's on PerC seem a bit ... "subdued" (although, I know I have to account for the fact that a certain type of person will be drawn to a forum type environment; thus it is a biased sample).

When I was depressed, and in a bad place, I nursed my wounds. But, I have since moved passed that (I recognize now that it was not a healthy thing to engage in, and only left me sad and miserable). I may be more emotional than most (& feel defective for that), but I don't _want_ to see myself as a bad person (if I can help it; I usually can't, but I don't go out of my way to associate as a bad person). Type 4's seem to want to see themselves as crap (sorry if I'm getting it wrong, that's why I'm asking;; to clarify). I want to grow, develop, and move past the tendency [to feel negative & deficient]. I (ultimately) want to be happy (that's the end goal- even if it's a bumpy road getting there at times). A lot of Type 4's on PerC seem to wear their misery as a badge of honor.

Can someone translate, or teach me*?* I need some help understanding*.*


----------



## Daeva

o0india0o said:


> This may sound like a dumb (& rude) question, but:
> 
> Can Type 4's be happy*?*
> 
> All of the Type 4 descriptions sound so depressed, it appears as though depression manifest in human form is their personality. I relate to a lot of the content of Type 4 descriptions, but even many of the Type 4's on PerC seem a bit ... "subdued" (although, I know I have to account for the fact that a certain type of person will be drawn to a forum type environment; thus it is a biased sample).
> 
> When I was depressed, and in a bad place, I nursed my wounds. But, I have since moved passed that (I recognize now that it was not a healthy thing to engage in, and only left me sad and miserable). I may be more emotional than most (& feel defective for that), but I don't _want_ to see myself as a bad person (if I can help it; I usually can't, but I don't go out of my way to associate as a bad person). Type 4's seem to want to see themselves as crap (sorry if I'm getting it wrong, that's why I'm asking;; to clarify). I want to grow, develop, and move past the tendency [to feel negative & deficient]. I (ultimately) want to be happy (that's the end goal- even if it's a bumpy road getting there at times). A lot of Type 4's on PerC seem to wear their misery as a badge of honor.
> 
> Can someone translate, or teach me*?* I need some help understanding*.*


E type 4 is a few things:
it's a withdrawn type
it's a reactive type
it's an image type

If you shake this mixture for a few minutes, you'll see that what comes out is someone who will have a strong pull towards pulling away from the world, creating distance between themselves and everyone and -thing around them. A major cause for this is their acute awareness of all that is wrong and defective with the world and themselves. The combination here of being a withdrawn type and a reactive type will make them *over*-aware of their own deficiencies. This is something that will feel 'good' for the 4, as it is what comes natural for them. To go into the depths (withdrawn) of what is wrong (reactive). To dive in full in order to reach the bottom, and maybe even go further.
The final touch to this combination is the image focus. All of this digging into the pain and agony of their flaws and wrongs, (and them doing it again and again and again and..), all of this will become a source of pride (envy never comes alone), showcasing these very flaws to the world as the _true self_, as opposed to everyone else who choose to ignore their own shadow. Most of the previous will be transformed into symbolism to show and wear. Being an image type and a withdrawn type, what they consider the self will be put away from the world, creating distance from it, and this will be flaunted in their identity. Wing 3 even moreso, being double image. But the 5 winger doesn't escape from this either.

My conclusion after this brief distillation:
it's a type that creates distance from the world, instead focused intensely inward
it's a type that is (over)focused on the flaws, the wrongs, the negatives
it's a type that morphs most of their identity into displays of the symbolism of the self


So when you say that "A lot of Type 4's on PerC seem to wear their misery as a badge of honor."
Then yes, that sounds quite correct. It comes with the territory of 4.
Making the distinction between 'happy' and 'sad' isn't quite in line with e4 either, for this creates an arbitrary line ordering the felt experience of one's inner life, which goes against the focus on authenticity that the 4 harbors.


----------



## Animal

o0india0o said:


> This may sound like a dumb (& rude) question, but:


No such thing as a dumb question. 



> Can Type 4's be happy*? *


I don't see the point. Happiness is a fleeting emotion, like sadness, anger, attraction, whatever. It comes and goes, and it is unrealistic to hang on to any emotion forever. What's important to me, is being true to myself, which means feeling & owning ALL of my emotions. No emotion is better than another. The only thing worse than having too many emotions is having no emotions. And people who chase happiness are fabricating something false and blocking out what's real (which would be a wide range of emotion throughout each day, since that is human nature..), therefore they are not feeling real emotions in my view.



> All of the Type 4 descriptions sound so depressed, it appears as though depression manifest in human form is their personality. I relate to a lot of the content of Type 4 descriptions, but even many of the Type 4's on PerC seem a bit ... "subdued" (although, I know I have to account for the fact that a certain type of person will be drawn to a forum type environment; thus it is a biased sample).


I am not subdued. I am a force to be reckoned with, and have been since I came out of the womb, kicking and screaming and hitting my head on my mother repeatedly. I was almost 10 pounds and she, before pregnancy, weighed about 100 pounds, and is 5'0. This is a metaphor for how I have lived my life, and anyone that knows me would agree.

Marilyn Manson is a self-typed Social 4, who was typed at an enneagram conference as Soc 4w5 by Russ Hudson himself, and I would not call him subdued either. 






As for "depressed," I don't see myself as depressed. I'm very ambitious, and I love and live every minute of my life. But other people do spend their time "trying to make me happy," and I married a 9 who wakes up smiling.  Other people came up to us on the street in my home area when we were first dating, and said to him, "Wow.. thank you for making her happy. We've never seen her so happy." Another 4 I know said he received similar feedback when he met "The One."

But, I laugh, I live, I pursue my dreams, I was a pro singer who lost my voice to illness and then sang lead through my whisper later on & produced my own album... I am an unstoppable force, much like Marilyn Manson.. but most people would perceive either of us as 'dark' or our music as being 'negative' or focused on what's wrong.. I have no problem with that, because it's real.

I did not value being 'happy' and I would hiss at people who called me 'unhappy' as if it was something I had to fix... but now having met the love of my life who makes me so happy, I see what I was missing. Still, I would be miserable if he would expect me to smile all day. He is more than willing to delve into the depths with me and accept & love me the way I am, and I have no desire to "become more happy" even if I appreciate the balance he naturally gives me.



> When I was depressed, and in a bad place, I nursed my wounds.


My wounds are my creative fuel. I like to expose them rather than nurse them 



> But, I have since moved passed that (I recognize now that it was not a healthy thing to engage in, and only left me sad and miserable).


...... there's no moving past it for me. I am a phoenix who is reborn from my own ashes.. but the ashes weave into my wings and give me power , beauty and authenticity. 



> I may be more emotional than most (& feel defective for that),


I would never feel defective FOR THAT. I feel defective because I destroyed my own innocence to get to the truth, as a young child, so I have no memory of happiness or innocence, and my childhood pictures show it.






























> but I don't _want_ to see myself as a bad person (if I can help it; I usually can't, but I don't go out of my way to associate as a bad person).


Each enneagram type is a defense pattern with which we survive in the world.
4s grow to 1, because 1s insist on being good, better, perfect. 4s realize unconsciously that they can NEVER be perfect, and so, their defense against this is, "I'm not perfect, but I am AUTHENTIC. Take it or leave it, FUCKERS." The growth to 1 is about getting into their bodies to express what's inside, to bring it out into the world. So what Manson does, or what I do - singing our tragic songs and dressing up to showcase our wounds and inner world - is growth. This is how we attain catharsis and make peace with who we are, and see the beauty in it. 

Not all 4s are artists, but there will usually be a growth process of getting into the body to express the darkness within, even if not artistically. Maybe counseling people who have suffered, drawing upon their own suffering & growth for inspiration..whatever.

Anyway, 4s don't generally think of themselves as a good or bad person. They gave up on that before they can remember, as it gets in the way of authenticity. If I'm bad I'm bad and if I'm good I'm good. I'm ME. With all my defects and all of my power. And to me, _that_ is beauty.



> Type 4's seem to want to see themselves as crap (sorry if I'm getting it wrong, that's why I'm asking;; to clarify).


Actually no, I'm quite fond of myself.

He is too, don't you think?












> I want to grow, develop, and move past the tendency [to feel negative & deficient].


I want to be a vessel through which my passion and truth emerges. My life purpose is to polish the vessel - meaning - I learn skills like piano, songwriting, writing novels, art, etc, so I can be a clean, pure vessel for my inner passion, and I won't obstruct it along the way. It can retain its beauty, its ugliness, its extremes, its pain, its inspiration, its hunger, its chaos, its wreckage. I don't want to change who I am; I want to EXPRESS who I am. This is why it may seem to you that 4s wear their suffering as a badge.



> I (ultimately) want to be happy (that's the end goal- even if it's a bumpy road getting there at times). A lot of Type 4's on PerC seem to wear their misery as a badge of honor.


May my strife and challenges never end.. because if it did, I'd lay down and die. There would be no point to living.




> Can someone translate, or teach me*?* I need some help understanding*.*


Hope this helps.


----------



## Brains

Type Fours can absolutely be happy - it's just their schtick is appearing uniquely authentic and individual, so they show their darkness and flaw because that's what most shy from. Like Five, it's an overthinking type for whom the real and just being aren't real and meaningful enough, but somehow overwrought symbolism as a declaration of their authenticity and a sign of standing above the rabble is.

They don't as much actively want to see themselves as crap as much as romanticize the crap they have and use it and their willingness to put it on display to differentiate themselves much in the same way 3s use excellence.

Like, think Marilyn Manson. Has an awesome dad and they get along really well. But he doesn't like the state the world is in so he becomes his frustration and puts the grotesque wrongness out there. He becomes the flaw.


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## Animal

Brains said:


> Type Fours can absolutely be happy - it's just their schtick is appearing uniquely authentic and individual, so they show their darkness and flaw because that's what most shy from. Like Five, it's an overthinking type for whom the real and just being aren't real and meaningful enough, but somehow overwrought symbolism as a declaration of their authenticity and a sign of standing above the rabble is.
> 
> They don't as much actively want to see themselves as crap as much as romanticize the crap they have and use it and their willingness to put it on display to differentiate themselves much in the same way 3s use excellence.
> 
> Like, think Marilyn Manson. Has an awesome dad and they get along really well. But he doesn't like the state the world is in so he becomes his frustration and puts the grotesque wrongness out there. He becomes the flaw.


 Exactly. Even his name, "Marilyn" "Manson," cites two things that are wrong with the world & society - which makes sense since he's a social dom. My band name, likewise, cites the loss of my voice & my tragedy, and how I am exiled from my own passion... it's more related to Sx "problems," which makes sense since I'm an Sx dom. But 4s will own "The Problem With Me" - which stands as a universal symbol of something wrong with "X" .. and OWN that, become it, display it. To me, there's no shame in boldly displaying it - it would be more shameful to hide it and be inauthentic.

Other people might perceive the 'display of flaws and wrongness' as inauthentic, and they might believe that being normal is more authentic..but to me, "normal" is relative, and dependent on someone's time period, society etc; so when someone is wearing jeans and a t-shirt, they're wearing a "Normal in __my country__ in 2017" costume. To me, the costumes I'm wearing on stage or in photoshoots are MORE real than that. I'm not expecting others to agree with that, but it's how I feel, since I'm doing my best to display the shadow that's really inside me - and what I feel, in some form, lies within everyone.


----------



## o0india0o

[double post]


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## o0india0o

When encountering an obstacle or upset, I:

1.) Emotionally react
2.) Want to problem-solve and be pro-active in any way I can (after I have thoroughly addressed and discussed my emotions of course*!*)
3.) Be positive (the end result I'm shooting for)

I don't move forward until I have addressed my emotions. If I'm upset, I don't go out. I'll cancel plans, whatever. I don't like having to "fake" happiness, and I'm not likely to "pick myself up" when I'm upset. I tend to get emotionally stuck, and need someone to work it out with me. Once I get past that, I'm ready to be productive, with the ultimate goal of being happy and having homeostasis.


----------



## Paradigm

o0india0o said:


> When encountering an obstacle or upset, I:
> 1.) Emotionally react


I actually meant to tell you... I type at 6w7, of course, but the triad I relate to the most is the Frustration one (1/4/7). I relate to 6's other triads, sure, but the Frustration has always been a key element lingering in my personality. I was just joking the other day with a close friend, her life is ruled by Anxiety whereas mine is ruled by Frustration!

Point is, it wouldn't surprise me if you might relate to one triad over the other despite it not being your core type*. It happens. Life's weird, nothing's perfect. Just something to keep in mind.
*Not saying 4 isn't your core, I'm not actually intending to type you atm.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> @*Animal* , ha. You're definitely *a lot* more intense than me*!* You make me question whether I'm SX last, ha ha. Your posts are always enjoyable to read, and I appreciate your help.


Haha. I don't know if I'm that intense. My husband and I sit at home as much as possible and hang out on computer. I write or go on forums. Sometimes we go outside. ;D
Maybe I am emotionally intense especially when talking about 4 stuff since it's the core problems I've been battling all my life. People tell me I'm intense all the time, though.

I don't know if it's related to Sx though. Marilyn Manson is So/Sp. That's a pretty damn intense stack. Hitler was also So/Sp, and Donald Trump is Sp/So.


----------



## o0india0o

Well, from everything I've read here, I don't think I'm core Type 4.

I don't really understand what everyone's saying, but it sounds to me like Type 4's are not happy people, (lol). & That they think sadness makes them unique, so they cling to it.

My art tends to focus around finding the beauty in life, and the things people don't notice. Bringing joy, and good feelings. Not darkness or finding beauty in sorrow. Nah.

So, while I relate to a lot of the characteristics of a Type 4, I don't have that core dark and twisty interest. I desire to be authentic, but I see nothing wrong with striving for happiness and homeostasis (there's nothing inauthentic about it). To me, it seems like when some individuals snub their nose to a brand or some current trend; I say if you like it, wear it, buy it, do it. Sometimes what you like will be obscure, sometimes it will be popular. To me, that's authentic. Curating that experience would be inauthentic (to me at least).

I guess that means I'm back to my ill fitting Type 7 pants. 
I was really hoping I'd figure it out this time, guys.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> Well, from everything I've read here, I don't think I'm core Type 4.


Me neither 



> I don't really understand what everyone's saying, but it sounds to me like Type 4's are not happy people, (lol). & That they think sadness makes them unique, so they cling to it.


No.. I think my authentic feelings make me authentic, and that includes sadness. The fact that I'm willing to own ALL my feelings is apparently weird in this world of fake people ;D



> My art tends to focus around finding the beauty in life, and the things people don't notice. Bringing joy, and good feelings. Not darkness or finding beauty in sorrow. Nah.


Yes, I would see more of a positive outlook type in this. Maybe 2 or 7. I don't really believe in "bringing X feeling" .. I mirror whatever feelings I have, as accurately as I can, because to me, that's the natural, authentic human experience.



> So, while I relate to a lot of the characteristics of a Type 4, I don't have that core dark and twisty interest. I desire to be authentic, but I see nothing wrong with striving for happiness and homeostasis (there's nothing inauthentic about it).


Yes.. this is a good indicator of not being a 4. 



> To me, it seems like when some individuals snub their nose to a brand or some current trend; I say if you like it, wear it buy it, do it. Sometimes what you like will be obscure, sometimes it will be popular. To me, that's authentic. Curating that experience would be inauthentic (to me at least).


Well I agree with this. I don't give a rat's ass about obscure trends. I wear what is me, and don't wear what isn't me, regardless what anyone else is doing.



> I guess that means I'm back to my ill fitting Type 7 pants.


 If 7 doesn't fit, have you thought about 2?


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## o0india0o

@Animal

We went over Type 2 earlier; I don't relate to them _at all_.

I relate to Type 7, I just feel like I am a strange Type 7 for having all of this emotional depth.

& I make art about my authentic feelings, I just don't feel sad as much as Type 4's do (apparently). When I was in my abusive household, my art and poetry was really dark and morbid (pretty disturbing in fact), because that's how I felt. But, I don't feel that way anymore. I do write when I'm sad, but often, my life is more happy than sad now. I'm not being inauthentic, I'm just not sad all the time, and I have a hard time understanding why that is so much a part of the Type 4 experience. But if it is, then I just cannot relate. I'm definitely more emotional than most, but not more sad than most.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> We went over Type 2 earlier; I don't relate to them _at all_.
> 
> I relate to Type 7, I just feel like I am a strange Type 7 for having all of this emotional depth.
> 
> & I make art about my authentic feelings, I just don't feel sad as much as Type 4's do (apparently). When I was in my abusive household, my art and poetry was really dark and morbid (pretty disturbing in fact), because that's how I felt. But, I don't feel that way anymore. I do write when I'm sad, but often, my life is more happy than sad now. I'm not being inauthentic, I'm just not sad all the time, and I have a hard time understanding why that is so much a part of the Type 4 experience. But if it is, then I just cannot relate. I'm definitely more emotional than most, but not more sad than most.


Yeah.. a "happy go lucky 4" is usually a mistype. It doesn't make me happy or proud to admit that, but it's true. I don't consider myself a depressed or morbid person but apparently other people see the sadness of the world in my eyes. 

7s can have tremendous emotional depth, and any description that says otherwise needs to be ripped up and burned.


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## o0india0o

@Animal

I know you are just trying to help, so I apologize if I'm coming across rude about Type 4. I'm just frustrated with my own Enneagram journey (as well as my inability to understand the Type 4 descriptions, ha ha).

& a lot of Type 7 fits, it just seems like all the Type 7's I know are avoiding the deep conversations and feelings I can share and experience with Type 4's. They want to stay "up" all the time. I like being happy too, but when I feel sad (like I said) I like to acknowledge that and _feel_ that. This doesn't seem to jib with all my fellow Type 7's. Makes me feel like a misfit.

Also, while I really love all my Type 7 friends, the people I find myself saying "those are *my* people; they remind me of me" have been Type 4's lately. While I relate a lot to my Type 7 friends, that element of emotional depth is always missing. It's not that they're stupid, it's that they just don't like going there as much as I do. I *live* in my feelings and emotional world. I enjoy being happy (who doesn't like ice-cream*?*), but I want to experience the multitude of emotions and experiences in life;; I want to feel *alive* (_especially_ emotionally).


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## o0india0o

For example, I *loved* childbirth (it was my *favorite* part of pregnancy). It was painful, and sweaty, and hard. But also, beautiful, and exciting, and the most alive I've *ever felt**!* I loved it*!* Every part of it, even the dark parts of it.

What I'm saying, is I *love* intense emotions;; I *live* for them. What I search for is intense emotional experiences.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> I know you are just trying to help, so I apologize if I'm coming across rude about Type 4. I'm just frustrated with my own Enneagram journey (as well as my inability to understand the Type 4 descriptions, ha ha).


Ah don't worry, it's all good  Enneagram types aren't pretty, so it is important to understand the darker side of types, and to try to wrap your mind around that. I mistyped myself, so I understand. 



> & a lot of Type 7 fits, it just seems like all the Type 7's I know are avoiding the deep conversations and feelings I can share and experience with Type 4's. They want to stay "up" all the time. I like being happy too, but when I feel sad (like I said) I like to acknowledge that and _feel_ that. This doesn't seem to jib with all my fellow Type 7's. Makes me feel like a misfit.
> 
> Also, while I really love all my Type 7 friends, the people I find myself saying "those are *my* people; they remind me of me" have been Type 4's lately. While I relate a lot to my Type 7 friends, that element of emotional depth is always missing. It's not that they're stupid, it's that they just don't like going there as much as I do. I *live* in my feelings and emotional world. I enjoy being happy (who doesn't like ice-cream*?*), but I want to experience the multitude of emotions and experiences in life;; I want to feel *alive* (_especially_ emotionally).


In my experience, no type is deeper than another type. If those people aren't comfortable sharing feelings, they may be thinkers, or there may be another reason for it. But type 7, in itself, is not a reason to be uncomfortable with emotional depth. I saw a 7 writing on another forum, "Even my pain is an escape from my pain." For positive outlook types, there can be plenty of negative emotions, IN DEPTH too, but they might turn a blind eye to the REAL problem that it's harder for them to face. Then it hits them all at once, like an avalanche.




My husband is a 974 and one of the most emotionally deep people I know. I don't think anyone that knows us would consider me more "deep" than he is. The whole "4s are deep emotional blabla" is bullshit, and I would guess that many of the 4s you are comfortable talking to might be 4s.  I mean, if they were, you wouldn't have considered typing at 4. Most people who have spent a day around me would not consider being a 4 unless they really were. heh


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> For example, I *loved* childbirth (it was my *favorite* part of pregnancy). It was painful, and sweaty, and hard. But also, beautiful, and exciting, and the most alive I've *ever felt**!* I loved it*!* Every part of it, even the dark parts of it.
> 
> What I'm saying, is I *love* intense emotions;; I *live* for them. What I search for is intense emotional experiences.


*ENFP

*:blushed:


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## o0india0o

Well, I appreciate you listening, you definitely make me feel heard (& get to the heart of the emotional matter).



> For positive outlook types, there can be plenty of negative emotions, IN DEPTH too, but they might turn a blind eye to the REAL problem that it's harder for them to face. Then it hits them all at once, like an avalanche.


See, this is what doesn't fit. It fits my Type 9 husband, but I *always* have my finger on my emotional pulse. As far as I'm concerned, emotions are life, and life is emotions. I'm not trying to avoid or run from them;; I enjoy them like a delicacy (especially the intense ones).

I'm saying, *all I want to talk about* is emotions. When my husband & I go see a movie, I ask him "What did it make you feel? What do you think?" and I want him to ask me the same. & I want to leave no stone un-turned. I want to discuss and discuss our feelings until the sun comes up. Is this just a MBTI "F" sort of thing, and not type related*?* Even my Type 7 "F" friends just don't seem as consumed and absorbed by the emotional world ...

I just feel out of place.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> Well, I appreciate you listening, you definitely make me feel heard (& get to the heart of the emotional matter).
> 
> 
> 
> See, this is what doesn't fit. It fits my Type 9 husband, but I *always* have my finger on my emotional pulse. As far as I'm concerned, emotions are life, and life is emotions. I'm not trying to avoid or run from them;; I enjoy them like a delicacy (especially the intense ones).
> 
> I'm saying, *all I want to talk about* is emotions. When my husband & I go see a movie, I ask him "What did it make you feel? What do you think?" and I want him to ask me the same. & I want to leave no stone un-turned. I want to discuss and discuss our feelings until the sun comes up. Is this just a MBTI "F" sort of thing, and not type related*?* Even my Type 7 "F" friends just don't seem as consumed and absorbed by the emotional world ...
> 
> I just feel out of place.


I think it's "F." @Daeva (my husband) is an INFJ and he is very emotionally sensitive. We can cry together, rage together - honestly he's more intense with raging than I am and has more mood swings than I do. He's also artistic, expressive, thoughtful.. he notices if I'm sad and hugs me.. he reads my mind. He's incredibly attentive and we are illogical and unreasonable together. roud: Is your husband a thinker?


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> I'm saying, *all I want to talk about* is emotions. When my husband & I go see a movie, I ask him "What did it make you feel? What do you think?" and I want him to ask me the same. & I want to leave no stone un-turned. I want to discuss and discuss our feelings until the sun comes up.


 This sounds like ENFP. Seriously, every ENFP I know wants to analyze feelings til they pass out, lol. The irony is, analyzing feelings and discussing feelings is not the same as_ feeling_ feelings. :kitteh: If you want to see someone express some emotions that are way beyond the words they're using, and fill you up with their intense emotions like a volcano, find a high Fe person. Their hot blooded explosions make you FEEL. Analyzing feelings is more Fi territory, although @Daeva and I can talk and talk and talk about types, feelings, psychology etc.


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## o0india0o

Here's where I'm at:

Leaning Towards

- Type 7
- Type 4

Maybe

- Type 1
- Type 6
- Type 9

Not a Chance

- Type 2
- Type 3
- Type 5
- Type 8

Basically, I'm for sure not a power-seeker (2,5,8). & I am not all that into the competency harmonic grouping (3,5). Sounds about right. I *definitely* relate to the ideal seekers (1,4,7). As well as the Reactive _and_ Positive harmonic groupings.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> Here's where I'm at:
> 
> Leaning Towards
> 
> - Type 7
> - Type 4
> 
> Maybe
> 
> - Type 1
> - Type 6
> - Type 9
> 
> Not a Chance
> 
> - Type 2
> - Type 3
> - Type 5
> - Type 8
> 
> Basically, I'm for sure not a power-seeker (2,5,8). & I am not all that into the competency harmonic grouping (3,5). Sounds about right. I *definitely* relate to the ideal seekers (1,4,7). As well as the Reactive _and_ Positive harmonic groupings.


 How do you relate to 6?


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## Paradigm

o0india0o said:


> Leaning Towards
> - Type 7
> - Type 4
> Maybe
> - Type 1
> - Type 6
> - Type 9


I'm still thinking type 1, tbh. I can't find the post but you _really_ went 1y about describing child and college years in a recent post. (Did you delete it?) I was going to quote it but it's alright.

But yeah, that's my conclusion :tongue: SX dom probably, but I guess there's a possibility for SP/SX. I know you already explained why you don't think you're a 1... But you might be surprised by how SX 1s can be.

Possibility of 6 - you display the AHHH nature of 6w7 quite well - but idk, my 6-dar isn't going off.

9 is in the "no" pile, IMO, but I'm not privy to everything in your head so maybe I'm wrong (about everything!).


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## o0india0o

Paradigm said:


> I'm still thinking type 1, tbh. I can't find the post but you _really_ went 1y about describing child and college years in a recent post. (Did you delete it?) I was going to quote it but it's alright.


Ha. Yes, I did delete the post. :frustrating: "Double Post" (for me) is code for either: 1.) a double post, or 2.) I changed my mind about the information I shared and either panicked, felt it disrupted my sense of security or safety, or felt it made me feel too defective and ashamed/embarrassed. I wish I hadn't deleted it (because it took a lot of work to write), but last night I was worried that I shared to much, and I knew I wouldn't be able to sleep if I didn't deal with it. My husband has been a bit annoyed with how preoccupied I've been with all of this (I'm consumed, and determined to figure this out;; I just cannot leave well enough alone), so I impulsively deleted the post to alleviate anxiety (since I thought my husband might snap if I spent time in the middle of the night editing; especially since we haven't been getting sleep, as our son has been waking a lot in the night).



Paradigm said:


> But yeah, that's my conclusion :tongue: SX dom probably, but I guess there's a possibility for SP/SX. I know you already explained why you don't think you're a 1... But you might be surprised by how SX 1s can be.


I was surprised by how SX-primary Type 1's can be (when I read some descriptions), though Beatrice Chestnut kind of makes them sound like @ssholes. :laughing:



Paradigm said:


> Possibility of 6 - you display the AHHH nature of 6w7 quite well - but idk, my 6-dar isn't going off.


Ha ha ha ha ha*!* As I've been experiencing this, my head has literally been saying "AHHHHH!" when I panic*!* :laughing:
I thought about posting that text in my posts ("AHHHH!"), but thought it came across too deranged and dramatic (a small example of how I sweep bits of me under the rug that I worry are too defective, strange, or "different" - not necessarily a Type 4 argument, more a real life example of my behavior presented for examination).



Paradigm said:


> 9 is in the "no" pile, IMO, but I'm not privy to everything in your head so maybe I'm wrong (about everything!).


I would mostly agree with that. I don't have much reason for putting it in the "maybe" pile, other than I like to be thorough, confident, and meticulous when deciding something is a "no" (because then I can shut it out forever, and the pile of consideration gets less overwhelming). So, I really like to be sure if I give something the boot. But, I can agree that Type 9 is a "probably not", I just wanted to be extra sure.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Type 1, I've been really mulling that over, and I just don't think I could be Type 1 primary. If I was Type 1 primary, I also would be a bit disappointed, as I kind of want to find my Enneagram type to say: "There's my people;; the ones I belong with, the ones like me". I feel like such a misfit, and all the people I know look so much like their types;; I want that. If I were a Type 1, I'd be an even stranger Type 1 than Type 7. 

The way I come across on PerC is the way I prefer to live my life (though, that gets pushed down when around those I feel nervous, shy, or unsure around). But those who know me well, see me as a ray of sunshine, lots of fun, quite bouncy and playful, and a kid at heart. I tend to be the comedic relief in a group, and I'm the one who makes things more fun, and I like to bring the "sparkle"*!* 
I also consider myself quite creative, an artist, out-of-the-box thinker, different, unique, and an outsider. I could be wrong, but I just don't see these traits in the Type 1's I know. & if they were artists, I feel like we'd make drastically different art. I am not concerned about mistakes, for me it's all about process, emotions, and a sort of jazz-like spontaneity and freeness (I feel like this is all anti-Type 1).

When I was a child, I was the oldest, and when my parents would hand me money for my sister and I to go off and do things, I would hand the money directly to her (she is a 6w5). She didn't mind taking on responsibility (or well, I don't know if she did or didn't, but she frequently took on responsibility). I repel away from responsibility like a rock climber on a mountain. :laughing:
I know how to be responsible, and take care of myself (my Type 1w9 father *made sure* of that;; it was forced into me), but it is *definitely* not my preferred way of being (despite being capable of it).

It's something I heavily *resent* in my marriage (& didn't realize I needed when looking for a partner). My Type 9 husband is a far cry from my Type 1w9 father, or 6w5 sister (leadership/organized wise). Obviously, there is a lot that I appreciate about this (he's much more emotional, and adaptive, and patient, and accepting), but I found myself in a place without leadership or an organized environment, and that makes me anxious. I step-up into that role if I absolutely *have* to, because I desire that kind of consistency and safety in my life, but get overwhelmed by the leadership position, and just end up yelling at my husband. I've realized this isn't fair (though I'm unsure about what we're going to do about it). If I didn't step up, things wouldn't get done, our house would be a mess, we wouldn't do anything fun, [...] (I know this sounds like a Type 1 thing, but this is *literally* true when you're married to a Type 9). I never realized I *craved* this kind of leadership in my life, primarily because it had always been there. I tend to befriend individuals who have trouble loosening up, because I love bringing the fun, but also, because I desire someone to give direction, safety, a sense of purpose while I play. My father and sister were always taking up that cause, and my friends tended to as well. I was the person who needed to be reminded of birthdays, and was told where to go and where to stand. I am not a complete follower (I tend to see myself as an independent follower), but I definitely do not prefer leading.

I'll be back later (life is a bit hectic as of late, so it's getting hard to write).


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## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> But yeah, that's my conclusion :tongue: SX dom probably, but I guess there's a possibility for SP/SX. I know you already explained why you don't think you're a 1... But you might be surprised by how SX 1s can be.


Why So-last? I didn't read through everything, but @o0india0o's concerns sound Social to me.


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## Paradigm

Distortions said:


> Why So-last? I didn't read through everything, but @o0india0o's concerns sound Social to me.


I was considering SX/SO, tbh, but I can't see SP/SO, and I'm not sure if SO/SX would work as well as its reverse. So that leaves SX/SO, SX/SP, and SP/SX.

I wanted to ask Figure how SP-last 1s are, actually. Any insight, @Figure? Even if India's type isn't 1, I'm really interested to hear.


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## o0india0o

Anyways, I *know* there is Type 1 in me (at least I'm pretty sure), but I don't feel all that confident or convinced about primary. I think I'm more believable as a Type 6; I would be willing to entertain that idea.
@Animal , to answer your question (how I relate to Type 6). & this will (by no means) be extensive; I'm a bit stretched thin right now (my life isn't ending, we're just going through a busy period).

Anyways, since I had Type 6 as my wing, I obviously relate to it a fair bit. I am an anxious person; I like to talk out my anxiety (not be in flight from it like a Type 7 might). When my husband comes home, it's almost like I need to verbally discharge every thought, worry, and mental morsel to calm down (it builds up daily). I definitely have *a lot* of mental energy (which I also related to about the Type 7). I am known for asking good questions and being very inquisitive (it's the thing my Type 3w2 friend frequently compliments me on, and appreciates about me- he says I help him get clarity through my questions). The truth is very important to me. In my dysfunctional household, I was the scapegoat, and was *relentless* about making my narcissistic Type 3wX mother look at her lies and false realties (of course I couldn't make her, and it just ended up in her raging at me, but I always tried). I would get counter-phobic in my home, and lash out (my mother -who only understands the basics of Enneagram- typed me at Type 8 for this reason). I am known for my courage, and for being courageous (not always, but especially when the chips are down, or I'm backed against a corner). I can be quite anti-authoritarian. I have a feisty spirit. I look for direction and leadership in my life (it makes me feel safe and secure); though I wasn't always aware of this need or desire, because I tend to be fiercely independent (at least that's how I perceive myself). I like to get input from multiple (trusted) sources when making decisions (as I'm doing now), and bounce ideas off of others (or, bare minimum, talk out my ideas just to hear them out-loud). I am a very loyal person, and tend to stick around even after it's unhealthy for me. I *despise* bullies with a passion (that burns). I will risk life and limb to protect myself and others from perceived bullies (this was true in my position as a Social Worker for children in abusive homes). & I perceived my parents as bullies, and frequently would challenge them, even though I was terrified. I consider myself a good judge of character (though I use to be *extremely* trusting and naive;; very doe-eyed about the world and it's goodness). I care a great deal about the underdog (& at times see myself as such). Much of what my Type 3w2 friend would do when I would call him in crisis, is help me calm down emotionally, and then give me direction (I can usually handle myself, but it definitely helps if someone helps me manage my emotions and points me in a direction, then I can really go after things). I am an excellent problem solver, and tend to tackle any issues I (or loved ones) have in life by trouble-shooting. I think in advance about how to keep myself (& loved ones) safe in dangerous situations (my husband cares about this as well; either due to SP-instinct, or a very strong connection to Type 6). I know how to handle an active shooter situation, how to handle your car falling into deep water, what to do in the event of heat exhaustion, etc... and whatever I prepare for/learn about, I instruct and pass along the information to my husband (sometimes I will quiz him at random intervals, to make sure he is prepared :laughing. The thought of losing someone I love is very anxiety inducing to me, so it's important to me that they are safe, and know how to be prepared and protect themselves.

I'm not very suspicious, or sarcastic. I tend to come across very "innocent" in my demeanor and humor. & I tend to want to believe the best in others. (from my understanding these are not very Type 6-ish; this last paragraph here)

There is probably more, my computer battery is dying.


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## o0india0o

Oh*!* (I knew I would think of more)

I'm a bag full of opposites (which has made trying to explain myself here hard);; I worry everyone thinks I'm lying, because one minute I say one thing, and the next another. I'm still who I was on PerC (a light-hearted, fun-loving, free-wheeling, spirit), but I am also anxious, and have emotional depth. It's hard to explain myself without feeling like I'm confusing everyone about the other aspects of me. So, I'm a lot of opposite qualities, all wrapped up into one.


----------



## o0india0o

[Double Post]

for realz this time. :laughing:


----------



## o0india0o

& I want to be clear (for anyone now concerned about me as a human being;; because I feel like I'm being fairly transparent, and I'm not sure how messed up the average person is).

My husband and I have read a bunch of self-help books, worked on learning how to manage our emotions in a healthy manner (I no longer self-harm), broke contact with our abusive family members (& are now working on building up a "chosen family" so we have social support that we might not have otherwise), went to therapy, take self-improvement classes (we are actually going to one this weekend about how to help your children be emotionally resilient, and how to help them be comfortable with, and handle their emotions). We have our issues (& I'm pretty blunt and honest about many of them;; which probably makes myself, and our marriage look a mess), however, we work hard to address them, and to rise above the hand we've been dealt.

I am an incredibly involved mom, and I take our son to the park, help him handle his emotions, do creative activities with him, take him to the hands-on museum, go to meet-up groups (so he can socialize with other kids). I made a "music center" on our balcony, by tying pots and pans I found at the thrift store onto the railing (so he can hit them with a wooden spoon;; I'm sure our neighbors hate us :laughing, and we have a container garden with herbs and tomato plants so that our son can see where his food comes from and take part in that process.

I plan on volunteering with him (which I mentioned prior) to help pick left-over produce in farm fields to donate to food pantries. He'll probably just play in the dirt while I do it, but I hope that when he gets older, I can be sure to engage him in volunteer opportunities, so he understands the concepts of gratitude, and giving (& also, so he can be a part of something bigger than himself).

My husband & I make sure not to fight in front of him, and have improved our communication skills greatly. I do get overly emotional, and thus far have hid this from him [our son]. I'm sure that's not the best route (& one I won't be able to engage in forever), but I do plan on addressing this.

We do a lot of activities as a family, and my husband is a very involved Dad. He's very emotionally sensitive and playful with our son.

I just worry (since I complain a lot about my marriage and reveal a lot about my crappy past, and emotional craziness) that people are concerned at this point. I just want you to know, we work hard on this, and it's important to us that we're healthy (emotionally, and physically). 

The forums are just sort of an outlet for some of the steam I don't know where else to place.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> Oh*!* (I knew I would think of more)
> 
> I'm a bag full of opposites (which has made trying to explain myself here hard);; I worry everyone thinks I'm lying, because one minute I say one thing, and the next another. I'm still who I was on PerC (a light-hearted, fun-loving, free-wheeling, spirit), but I am also anxious, and have emotional depth. It's hard to explain myself without feeling like I'm confusing everyone about the other aspects of me. So, I'm a lot of opposite qualities, all wrapped up into one.



The six "pendulum" is a large part of six core and the kind of 'dance' around seeking certainty. "I'm this, but I'm also that." "I am a dichotomy, but also an opposite dichotomy." 

This description is a bit metaphysical, but describes this aspect well.

http://enneasite.com/the-types/e6-the-pendulum/



> *Type 6 *Type 6 may be the most difficult type to convey succinctly and comprehensively, partly because, compared to the other types, it straddles the widest polarity of opposing realities. And no less confounding is how evenly split this self-bifurcation is: essentially, exactly 50/50.
> 
> All the Types are mechanistic – able to be conceived of and visualized, in the abstract, each as their own integrated arrangement of inner gears, pulleys, levers; a simple motor, if you will, each part representing the major building blocks of psyche: ego, superego, _id_, the Centers (Head, Heart, Gut) and so on, interlaced perhaps by a connective belt of directional influence, producing each Type’s stylized dynamic of intrapsychic movement. The Six mechanism perhaps centers around a rather simple structural form, with a core component built largely around a two-dimensional polarity, connected by a single straight line, but this design _paradoxically_ generates a greatly contrasting palette of possible manifestations of the 6 fixation in individual Sixes, one to the others, and even within a single individual.
> This type is the spirit of contradiction, through and through. Any and all traits that we might assign to it, we’d have to include each and every opposite as well, with essentially no exceptions. Rather than viewing E6, though, as a catch-all for those that are difficult to type, this characteristic (structural) blockage in accessing the integrated middle, itself, draws a significant contrast between this type and the rest, and will therefore assist in spotting E6 in ourselves and others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get at this type’s emphasis on opposites and polarities, consider the concept in terms of 6’s relationship to 9: viewing it from the perspective of the central Enneagrammic building block — _the number 3_ — Type 6 is two _opposing_ 3s, while 9 adds a _third_ 3, the neutralizing agent, the integrative function, or (on the low side) having a dispersive role. In further contrast, looking at 6’s other first cousin, Type 3, this personality style has the single-mindedness (uni-directionality) of a _single_ 3 — a capacity for a kind of efficient self-unity or self-hypnosis, if you will. Turning back to Type 9, we might say, purely as a conceptual device, that a Nine “was a Six in his past life”, which explains the Nine’s prime imperative to _solve the opposition_, apparently _overly_ guarded against the re-emergence of his past conflicted self — the pendulum — a swaying Sword of Damocles.
> In the context of understanding all the types – and understanding basic human nature – Six becomes important because it’s uniquely archetypal to the human dilemma, i.e.- this quality of bifurcating everything (into good/bad, right/wrong, true/false, real/unreal) is a universal condition; it undercuts our endeavors and thoughts, in people of all types. On one level, Type 6 is an incarnation of Superego, which is the core dynamic/engine of what keeps our fixated personalities operating. The divided self, the antagonist within, the split will, indecision, questioning. Six is the typological personification of Light and Shadow, a living incarnation of our fundamental disunity and crisis of faith, seemingly decoupled from the direct intuitive channel to Source, the plug into firsthand experience and understanding of Purpose and Meaning. Perpetually unsure whether the Universe is friend or foe.
> A structural development that organically falls out from this fundamental precariousness – at a cellular level of psyche – is something that might be called _the Grid_, a compulsion to set an abstract latticework, a hard logical fortification, across the canvas of the random universe. This can take on many forms: from religion to astrology (which both set something of a static graph in the sky), to law and psychology (which have their precedents and systems), definitions and schools of thought, a compulsion toward abstract seizure and control of the chaos of human nature through delineation and codification in mental space. For some 6s, this can take the form of outwardly seeking and adhering to established authorities, doctrines, creeds…and, true to the pendulum, pushing hard against these same entities. For other 6s, the process may be much more abstract and solitary, yet still having a tendency to favor man-made structures.


----------



## Animal

Distortions said:


> Why So-last? I didn't read through everything, but @*o0india0o*'s concerns sound Social to me.


I agree with this, I definitely cannot see social last. I'm leaning So/Sx. I see a lot of focus on social, and also outward energy without the containment of Sp. And a way of drawing everyone in to her inner world. My vote goes strongly to So/Sx but I will elaborate on it further once we've got the core and other elements nailed down.


----------



## Paradigm

Idk, my impressions of @o0india0o's _recent_ posts (the last day, maybe two) are twofold:
- She's reading too much about types and over-loading herself
- Probably very unconsciously, she's tapping into what she thinks a 6 is, or the 6 part of herself, and showing it to avoid her real type

I know that sounds very mean, and I'm very sorry. I'm not saying you're lying about anything, or lying to yourself. This is often part of the journey for people, so it's not unusual. I'm just feeling like right now many are defaulting to 6 "because indecisiveness" (to sum it up).


----------



## o0india0o

I thought about it more, and my instincts tell me that @Paradigm would know a Type 6 when she saw one. My intuition trusts that idea;; I trust your Type 6-radar. 

I also had a chat (just a little bit) with my husband (he's been swamped at work, so I haven't been able to bounce all my thoughts off of him lately). He knows about the Enneagram from book passages I'll read to him, and everything I discuss with him (so he is definitely not an Enneagram expert; & I don't consider myself as such either); just a disclaimer. However, he said he wouldn't consider anything but Type 6, Type 7, or Type 4 for me.

He also asked me why I couldn't be a Type 4, as he doesn't understand the idea about negativity either (he said he's 95% sure I'm a Type 4). I tried to read him a few book passages (between our son fussing for attention). I only owned the Elizabeth Wagele books prior, because I liked the simplicity and cartoons. :laughing: But last weekend, my husband took me to the bookstore and pushed me to get "The Wisdom of the Enneagram" book (even though I've checked it out from the library before, and find it a bit un-necessarily wordy). But the more I explained what I didn't understand about Type 4's, the more I got frustrated and described to him what I relate to, and how I experience the type, and why I thought I was a Type 4. It definitely helped clarify some of my emotions and ideas, as well as reflect. I wanted to share those.

I initially got very overwhelmed and emotionally distressed when I realized that I might be a Type 4 (& not a Type 7), because I pride myself in understanding myself and having self-awareness. I have taken countless personality quizzes (even as a child - _constantly_). I liked to keep a running, mental, "word cloud" of adjectives that described me. I liked knowing myself, and what I liked best about personality quizzes (which I analyzed, because I wanted to understand why I had this incessant need and drive when others around me didn't), was hearing who I thought I was reflected back to me. It made me feel good, and secure. Knowing who I was, was important and *integral* to who I was as a person. My parents would try to *force* me to be something I wasn't through physical, and emotional abuse. I prided myself in "keeping myself" or "staying true" to myself. For those who have seen the movie "The Crucible" (about the Salem witch trials), there was a scene I always related to in that movie, and that was of the man who was being pressed to death with rocks. They would press him to either say he was a witch (or that someone else was, I cannot fully recall), but all he would respond with was "more stones". I related to that defiance; & it is how I felt about my identity (which my parents were constantly trying to strip me of). It is the *one* thing I left my home with. My parents took *everything* from me, but I felt defiant in the idea that they couldn't take my "me" away from me. My identity and morals were my North Star and compass in my dysfunctional household. When I compare my story to my husbands, I have _always_ (wrongfully, I realize) judged him for not being true to himself in his dysfunctional home (he's a Type 9, and his mother is an unhealthy Type 2, you do the math). I probe him about this constantly;; I just couldn't (& still can't) understand how someone could willingly give up who they were at their core (their essence). In some ways, I feel that's all we have in life.

In the past, I chalked this up to me just being more aware, special, strong, or unique, compared to my husband or others who had been through my situation. I realize how sh*tty this makes me sound (& I *loathe* myself for that), but I want to be honest.

Anyways, if I didn't know myself like I thought I did (& being true to myself was my North Star;; essential to my being, and navigating out of my dysfunctional home -and in many ways- rising above it, and becoming a healthier person than one from my circumstance _ever_ should), then what did I have*?* What was real*?* Who was I_*?*_ & What if I didn't know myself*?* It felt like an existential *crisis*. Having an identity and knowing myself has always been very important to me (it's just not something I've ever thought about in those terms, or been conscious of that directly).

In some ways, I _knew_ Type 7 was not a fit. I would tell myself that Type 7 felt like a security blanket. It felt safe and good to be a Type 7. It was the image I wanted to project, and who I wanted to be. Parts of Type 7 definitely _are_ *me*, but I accentuated those parts, and over-identified with those parts. I also rejected pieces that did not fit with my chosen identity (like saying I'm a positivity type, when I am *super* reactive, and sometimes quite negative; all of that was not me). But ... it *was* me. I knew Type 7 was wrong, that's why I kept questioning it, and prodding at it, but I wasn't ready for who I might be. I didn't know how to digest that.

What made me willing to look at Type 4, was a lot of positive influences coming together in my life, but I'll go over a few (not extensive). I made a mom friend, that I was unbelievably excited about. She reminded me of myself, and I told my husband "I _never_ meet people like me*!*" I was beside myself. It was pretty clear she was a Type 4. I started realizing that many of the people I related to were Type 4's. I remembered how my Type 3w2 friend introduced me to his (now ex) girlfriend, saying that he thought we would get along, and that I reminded him of her (she is a 4w5, and we're still friends). How could it be, that I related so much to all of these Type 4's, and not in the same way to my Type 7 friends*?*

Then, there was the fact that one day I told my husband I envied the relationship my Type 4 mom friend had with her son. I _never_ feel that way about other parents. I don't think everyone is a crap parent; I just have a very particular way I want to be a parent. She was close with her son, had a clear bond with him, was emotionally sensitive to him, and was very gentle with him. I realized I was envious of that relationship, because it was the kind of mother I wanted to be. (& with my husband's help; I recognized it is the type of mother *i am*) My parenting style mimics the Type 4 parenting style in books, and not remotely the Type 7 (other than engaging in a lot of fun activities with my son). I also met a few other Type 4's (of various ages) that I really admired and liked. I realized that there _might_ be positive attributes to being a Type 4, and that I related to many of them.

These realizations (among other things) gave me the courage to more closely consider Type 4, and let down my guard a bit about Type 7 (be more honest with myself). When I realized I might be a Type 4, my life and emotional world was turned upside down (I know people in other countries are being bombed; I am fortunate & privileged;; but I did feel intensely about it). Suddenly, I couldn't unsee what I learned/saw about my misfit Type 7 identity. But I didn't know how to process being a Type 4, and I couldn't quickly scamper to a Type 4 identity. It was like a hermit crab that took off it's shell (my old Type 7 identity) and was quickly looking for a new one, but there were no shells to be found (at least not _quickly_). This was alarming, and scary. I didn't know who I was, and I was unsure I could ever know (due to me putting blinders on in the first place). I've been consumed with figuring out my type this time around (as before it was much more casual) because I *need* an identity. I feel scared and naked without one. I feel uncertain of who I am.

My husband doesn't understand. He says, "but you're the same person". But it doesn't feel that way to me. I feel like I don't know who I am, as I was being a bit false about it by accentuating certain parts and ignoring others. I still think I'm more self-aware than most, but it definitely shook me to my core. I'm going to have to re-learn myself, in more honest (& hopefully more _*positive*_) terms, if I truly want to have an identity and know and understand myself.

Even the way I've been going about this is very Type 4. I've become completely absorbed, frequently checking the forums, reading books. I feel hella' guilty, because I'm not giving my son the (normally) focused love and attention that has been typical from me. My husband's overwhelmed at work (which is part of why he's so annoyed with me), and I feel selfish, but I cannot seem to stop fixating on this, and delving inward, frantically trying to dredge up the truth, so I can put a shell of identity back on. I haven't been so self-focused in a while. I think I'm a relatively healthy Type 4 (& thus, why I might be more happy at times). If I'm SO/SX, than that explains even more why I present as Type 7-ish. 

Things I need to work on, are stopping associating with only my negative attributes (most of which are probably over-blown and inaccurate anyways). I'm like a person with an eating disorder, when I look in the mirror, I see someone fat - even if the truth is, I'm nothing but skin and bone. I don't know why, but I don't look at what's good about myself;; I only see the defects (& I lament about them). I need to self-reflect on my positive attributes (because I know there are many), and I need to keep that list with me. I need to continue to find healthy outlets for my emotions, and figure out how to show my son healthy emotional processing (instead of hiding from him due to fear I'll mess him up with my intense emotions and the ways in which I currently process them). I also need to find ways to make clear to myself that there is nothing wrong with me, because it inhibits me socially, emotionally, and in every which way (it's a large part of why I job hopped so much;; the social stress was just excruciating). I need to connect with more fellow Type 4's, so that I can share these parts of myself with them (I think being around those of your type -not to exclusion- has some important social and emotional health benefits). I need to continue to get back to my self-care (which can be hard with a baby), but I need to get back into my creative projects and outlets of emotional expression. I'm sure there is more, but that's more than enough to work on*!* & Frankly, I'm excited about that. 

I know it's not a popular opinion that I'm a Type 4, but I have looked over all the other types meticulously up until this point. & while I have a bit of imposter syndrome, I think that will go away as I get more comfortable with myself, and embracing all the aspects of who I am.

I think I was on the edge of a level up from the average levels, to the healthy levels of Type 4. I know not everyone will believe me, or agree, but I feel good about this.


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## o0india0o

Oh*!*

& The Type 4 relationship dynamics with each type also fits _perfectly_. As I mentioned before, it explains the way I pick at my husband on the forums (due to struggling with the idealized vs. the actual), as well as wanting more from a Type 9 at times (as he can sometimes recline into auto-pilot).

It describes my relationship with my Type 6 friend as well. We are a safe haven for thoughts and feelings we do not feel that we can discharge in other places. & I _do_ help her get more in-touch with her feelings, and feel more comfortable exploring them.

My type 3w2 friend as well. I confided in him (about a year ago) that I saw our relationship like that of Xavier and Mystique from the movie "X-men First Class". For those of you unaware, Mystique appears in the movie, as this blue mutant (from head-to-toe) who can shape-shift. She has no where to go, and Xavier takes her in. They're both children. He said he didn't see it that way, that I was just a "good friend". Thus I was projecting, and not seeing him fully for who he was, but a rescuer figure (which is in the Type 4 & Type 3 relationship dynamics descriptions on The Enneagram Institute website).

All my relationship patterns fit the descriptions of Type 4.


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## o0india0o

Paradigm said:


> Idk, my impressions of @o0india0o's _recent_ posts (the last day, maybe two) are twofold:
> - She's reading too much about types and over-loading herself
> - Probably very unconsciously, she's tapping into what she thinks a 6 is, or the 6 part of herself, and showing it to avoid her real type
> 
> I know that sounds very mean, and I'm very sorry. I'm not saying you're lying about anything, or lying to yourself. This is often part of the journey for people, so it's not unusual. I'm just feeling like right now many are defaulting to 6 "because indecisiveness" (to sum it up).


None taken. Your observations are astute.

I am overloading myself (I explain why in the novel of a post I posted;; don't feel obligated to read the explanation).
& while I'm not lying about how I relate, I trust your instincts about me not being a Type 6. I read more, and thought about it. Bounced ideas off my husband, and while I might consider switching my head-fix to a 6w7 (as oppose to 7w6), I don't think Type 6 is primary. I interpret you as a very discerning person, with an acute awareness, as well as an ability to sense a fellow Type 6 when you see one. I trust your intuition on that.


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## Animal

Paradigm said:


> Idk, my impressions of @*o0india0o*'s _recent_ posts (the last day, maybe two) are twofold:
> - She's reading too much about types and over-loading herself
> - Probably very unconsciously, she's tapping into what she thinks a 6 is, or the 6 part of herself, and showing it to avoid her real type
> 
> I know that sounds very mean, and I'm very sorry. I'm not saying you're lying about anything, or lying to yourself. This is often part of the journey for people, so it's not unusual. I'm just feeling like right now many are defaulting to 6 "because indecisiveness" (to sum it up).


 I have spoken to her around the forum before, so I know what her personality looks like overall. I read a clear, obvious, _classic_ head type. Over-loading herself and reading too much in, specifically in the back-and-forth manner that she is doing, tends to be head-type tell anyhow, in my experience.

We don't have to agree, and obviously she doesn't either - so I will leave it at that. I'm not saying this to be rude, I love your typings often, I just strongly disagree on this one. 

@*o0india0o *Good luck with your journey.


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## Paradigm

Animal said:


> I have spoken to her around the forum before, so I know what her personality looks like overall. I read a clear, obvious, _classic_ head type. Over-loading herself and reading too much in, specifically in the back-and-forth manner that she is doing, tends to be head-type tell anyhow, in my experience.
> 
> We don't have to agree, and obviously she doesn't either - so I will leave it at that. I'm not saying this to be rude, I love your typings often, I just strongly disagree on this one.
> 
> @*o0india0o *Good luck with your journey.


Of course  Sorry for not mentioning you, I couldn't remember if it was more people than you looking at 6 and couldn't be assed to look (I've been out all day! I'm tired), so I made it a general statement.

I think we all see different parts in people. I'm compartmentalizing in a way and not seeing core 6, thus 6 is off the table for me. But exploring 6 (as fix or core) wouldn't be horrible, if you wanted to continue; she says she's considering it, iirc  

That said, I'm probably done, too, @o0india0o, as I feel like I crossed (or about to cross) the line into "overbearing." I have some thoughts about things (nothing bad, mostly theory-related, interpretation of types, etc), but I think you need to figure them out for yourself. So... Have fun


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## PolarBearxx

Hi guys, Not sure what to do....I know mbti veryyyy well(I am intp) but next to nothing about eneagram(thanks to 'new posts' for bringing me here) anyway an online friend said I am type 9.....
ha, I thought this was mbti but everyone is talking about eneagram and I am useless with that....


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## Rose for a Heart

Just sharing my experience...I may not speak for every 4.



o0india0o said:


> This may sound like a dumb (& rude) question, but:
> 
> Can Type 4's be happy*? *


Yes, why not 
Although it's easier said than done. Recently I have decided to be more grateful and focus on why I love life, instead of why I don't, and that has helped me change perspective a bit. 



> All of the Type 4 descriptions sound so depressed, it appears as though depression manifest in human form is their personality.


Tbh I hate the word "melancholy," because the life inside me is crimson red, with a 100 different shades coming and passing...not _sad_. Melancholy doesn't even begin to really convey who 4s are inside. I find it undermines things and is a surface level view of the type.



> When I was depressed, and in a bad place, I nursed my wounds. But, I have since moved passed that (I recognize now that it was not a healthy thing to engage in, and only left me sad and miserable). I may be more emotional than most (& feel defective for that), but I don't _want_ to see myself as a bad person (if I can help it; I usually can't, but I don't go out of my way to associate as a bad person). Type 4's seem to want to see themselves as crap (sorry if I'm getting it wrong, that's why I'm asking;; to clarify). I want to grow, develop, and move past the tendency [to feel negative & deficient]. I (ultimately) want to be happy (that's the end goal- even if it's a bumpy road getting there at times). A lot of Type 4's on PerC seem to wear their misery as a badge of honor.


If by bad you mean "defective," yeah it may be true. That is, if the 4 over-identifies with that image. 4s can get to a point they where they realize what they are doing and don't do it anymore. May be the whole "want to be seen for who they really are so that they can finally be loved unconditionally."


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## o0india0o

I understand that I don't know everything there is to know about the Enneagram. & maybe, by exposing my thought process, I have depicted how out-in-left-field I am. But, I think exploring type 4 will help me irregardless, as it has always been my heart fix typing.

I want to thank all the people who put time and effort into discussing this with me, as I know that you all probably have a lot of other things you could have been doing. I _seriously_ appreciate it, as your guidance, input, and questions have helped me get a lot of insight and clarity about many different things.

Thank you @Paradigm , @Animal , @Distortions , @Figure , @Brains , @Daeva ,and I'll have to go back and make sure I'm not missing anyone, but thank you, thank you, thank you. I genuinely appreciate it. :love_heart:


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## Animal

Paradigm said:


> Of course  Sorry for not mentioning you, I couldn't remember if it was more people than you looking at 6 and couldn't be assed to look (I've been out all day! I'm tired), so I made it a general statement.


Oh no don't worry! I wasn't offended by anything you wrote. I just wanted to address you directly with that post, since you were the one most strongly disagreeing and I didn't want to ignore you either  it's all good 



> I think we all see different parts in people. I'm compartmentalizing in a way and not seeing core 6, thus 6 is off the table for me. But exploring 6 (as fix or core) wouldn't be horrible, if you wanted to continue; she says she's considering it, iirc
> 
> That said, I'm probably done, too, @*o0india0o*, as I feel like I crossed (or about to cross) the line into "overbearing." I have some thoughts about things (nothing bad, mostly theory-related, interpretation of types, etc), but I think you need to figure them out for yourself. So... Have fun


Yes, I feel the same way - I've offered what I can, and hopefully it helps, but either way, it's her journey and in the end, her opinion on it counts the most. 

Loved all the feedback here though, whether I agreed or not with conclusions.


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## Figure

Paradigm said:


> I was considering SX/SO, tbh, but I can't see SP/SO, and I'm not sure if SO/SX would work as well as its reverse. So that leaves SX/SO, SX/SP, and SP/SX.
> 
> I wanted to ask Figure how SP-last 1s are, actually. Any insight, @*Figure*? Even if India's type isn't 1, I'm really interested to hear.


See what you think of these points: 


Probably the best summary would be that SP 1's themselves have this recurring assumption that every little errant thing in their lives needs to be fixed to ensure they won't miss it and result in a complete debacle. That assumption is frequently triggered by life seeming wild and unforgiving, which habitually causes SP 1's to bear the burden. 

When the SP worry is less of a focus, you lose the connection between concrete perfectionism, anxiety, and self worth. 

SO 1 is all about becoming worthy once you've associated yourself with the highest and best levels of social expectations, ideally superior to peers. SX 1 is deservingness, getting what one wants because it's a right, and urgency of changing things that are wrong and shouldn't have ever gotten to be the way they are. 

SO and SX 1 together is a pretty competitive combination, with a high bar for being "better than." I think the SP last 1's can be really great leaders in initiating change or reforming an unjust status quo, but also entitled and sulky when they don't get their way, or the feedback they were expecting. Also, great conviction, but having that additional energy also really raises the risk of having a secret indulgent life, and intensity/scale when it does happen since the SP has more natural self control. More Id-like energy puts higher strain on the Superego self-restraint, so it may "break" more often. 

They're also triggered a lot more in how respectably they associate to idealized expectations from other people - not so much whether they've done enough to be worthy of surviving.


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## Rose for a Heart

@*o0india0o*

If I remember correctly, you mentioned you like diving into your emotions (or something like that), which is why you related to 4, right? 
It has made me think of one online friend who is currently typing at 4, except she doesn't relate to things I believe are crucial to the type. She is definitely SX first but she says she doesn't relate to the SX 4 profile - except for "competition" but even that I don't see very much. She said that "just because I numb myself from my emotions because of trauma" doesn't mean she is not a 4, but then...just because she dives into her emotions doesn't mean she is one. She doesn't relate to the masochistic (and consequent feeding of the identity) aspect of 4, she doesn't relate to the SX 4, and her unhealthy states as she has shared with me are very 6-like. She also tries to have a focus on "the positive." And she seems to have little to no connection to 2. 
I had always thought that 9 made a lot more sense for her because even though we are the same tritype, she has a stronger connection to 6, I feel like. 
Anyways, I don't know her irl so I was hesitant to say anything, but of course I'm very skeptical at this point as she doesn't strike me as a 4, and what you were talking about helped me see that some traits may not necessarily mean conclusively core 4 for someone.


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## brightflashes

lol oh how fun! I am pretty certain I'm not mistyped, but if someone wants to tell me I'm really an INTJ, I'm all ears! : D

Seriously, I'll consider any input.


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## Immolate

owlet said:


> @*lets mosey* How about type 1 for you instead of 5?


Are you suggesting 1 because I've listed it next in my tritype, or because you can see a strong 1 influence in me?


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## o0india0o

@Rose for a Heart

I appreciate you thinking of me_*!*_ :smile-new:

& it sounds like your friend and I share a lot in common. I *do* think 9w1 _might_ be my gut-fix (though, I'm still reading through stuff for both Type 1 and Type 9; it's between the two). Since my husband is Type 9, every time I read Type 9 information, it's with him in mind. So, I have to sort of separate that from my reading of Type 9 this time around (which is semi-difficult to do). But I *definitely* do not numb myself. I am constantly checking-in on my emotions as if they were a boyfriend, and I was an overly needy and clingy girlfriend. :laughing:

I also realize I have a strong connection to Type 6. I still have to read the Type 7 section in "The Wisdom of the Enneagram", however, I have a feeling I will end up being a 6w7, instead of a 7w6. I always related to Type 6 a lot (hence, why it was my wing when I was typing as a Type 7); so, it was either a strong wing, or it's my primary type/head-fix.

After all this research, I feel pretty confident that Type 6 and Type 4 are the only options. & I'm pretty certain I'm a Type 4.

I ***did*** relate to the "masochistic" or whatever you want to label it (I'm uncertain of how to summarize it at this point), but I don't anymore. I am still quite hard on myself, and have both a "idealized image" of myself (the Type 7 persona), and a exaggerated defective image (which I only discuss with trusted individuals). However, I stopped a lot of the dark dredger-y when I got healthier. It didn't make much sense to do that (especially now that I have a son who relies on me; you *have* to step-up). I still have a lot of the overly negative aspects, but it's been on my to-do list to tackle that.

I don't fully understand everything, but I've decided I don't care; I'm embracing the Type 4 self-diagnosis. Through process of elimination alone, it's really the only option left (well, unless I end up deciding on Type 6, as I do feel a strong head-center connection; @Animal was correct in that).

Anyways, thanks for your input*!* & Thanks again for thinking of me and passing that information along; always appreciated!


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## o0india0o

Leaning towards a Type 7 with a *strong* 6-wing (for head-fix). I have finished the Type 7 chapter in "The Wisdom of the Enneagram", and am only half-way through the Type 6 chapter, but I felt good putting the cart before the horse. :laughing:

I relate more to the character Phil (7w6) from the t.v. show "Modern Family", than the character Jess (6w7) from the t.v. show "New Girl". Though it's close (& I do relate to both characters);; I just don't relate to this idea of _responsibility_. I can do it if I have to, but I feel it spoils my experience, the feelings of aliveness, and dampens my connection to myself.

I am just dropping stuff here because I like to talk *out-loud*. :smile-new:


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## Animal

@*o0india0o*

This is not a comment on your type, but a clarification of some of the things I said here. I just posted this in another thread as a response to someone else, so I thought you might be interested. I'm going to remove the post-quotes to make it easier to read..

_______

Someone being "sad" does not make them a 4, and someone wallowing in pain does not make them a 4. 4 is about _identifying with your shadow_ which is absolutely not the same thing as "being sad all the time." It's about their identity and how they see themselves. Brokenness can be beautiful, and it can be ugly. 4s identify with brokenness, but they do not see that as a bad thing that has to make them constantly sad. Look at Marilyn Manson. He is happy but he is a symbol of his brokenness. If you can't understand the difference between identifying with brokenness and "wallowing," go back to the basics.. 

IMAGE IS ABOUT IDENTITY.
SHAME AND SADNESS ARE UNIVERSAL HUMAN EMOTIONS.


Fours often have a 'sad affect' because of the constant digging in to their pain to identify who they are - which is an _identity_ issue. 4s will not respond well to the idea of 'growing out of it,' because to a 4, their brokenness is real and is part of who they are. 4 is a "fall from type 1" or a "resistance to 1," their growth line. 1s strive to be perfect - and 4s decided 'I'm not perfect, and I never will be, but at least I'm_ real,_ at least I'm _me_.' There's a sense of, "this is who I am, take it or leave it," even if the 4 is quiet or doesn't say it in words.. this "me-ness" is part of their affect. And that's where the 'sadness' comes from. Many people try to 'move forward in spite of their emotions' or convince themselves they are ok - but 4s look inside too much and are self-absorbed, so they obsess over their own inner life and inner emotions, which, like all people, fluctuate from sad to happy. But 4, being a reactive type, wants to "get to the bottom" of their pain and sadness, to identify with it, to learn who they are and wear it on their sleeve as an image, which the 4 convinces themself is 'the real me.' Reactivity is a search for "the truth" and image reactivity is "the search for who I REALLY am." Since 4s do this automatically, they will not refer to it as a search for who they are. They will tell you, "I know who I am." This is automatic for them.

When talking about sadness and wallowing, you're completely missing the _image_ and _identity_ part of the equation. And the idea that "to be healthy, someone has to be happy," is an assumption, and not necessarily what everyone believes. Everyone might have her own take on what fulfillment would look like, but not everyone sees 'happiness' as some kind of ultimate goal. Some people don't want to be happy, per se; they want to be _real_, to _express_ themselves, and to be _whole_. Happiness, sadness, anger and so forth, are fleeting emotions, and not everyone conceptualizes one emotion as a 'final goal' in their life. How someone finds fulfillment is not universal, nor is it type-specific; but for someone to be a 4, _identity_ must be a constant, deep-seated need. Searching for "happiness" may feel banal or distracting to some 4s, when all emotions are real parts of the human experience and will serve to reveal to the 4 who they are. 

Depression is a separate thing from the 4 experience. 4s, like all humans, get sad and happy and angry throughout the day. People who are depressed, therefore stuck in their sadness or emptiness and never experience feelings of fulfillment, will likely want to be happier - whether they are 4s or not - but that is beyond enneagram. The journey to happiness is not what _identity_ and _image_ is about, though. The journey to me, is. And the crucial components of 4 are identity (what makes me me, brokenness, shadow, what's really there), image (who am I really and how do I express it?), reactivity (what is the truth of who I am?), withdrawnness (attention to the inner life), etc. 

Still, I can't stress enough that enneagram types are automatic defense sets that we take for granted. So a 4 will not easily relate to "searching for who they are," the way other types might. A 4's first, automatic defense against chaos in the world and in the self, is to develop a sense of identity. So 4s will claim to know who they are, and they will advise others to figure out who they are as well, as if this is _the thing to do_ when shit hits the fan. 4s hold on to a sense of who they are so strongly that it's not something they need to look for; the danger is identifying with the past or the perceived shadow so strongly that they are not 'present.' Every type has a point at which they're not present, and for 4, this is why... but from a 4's perspective, "this is me, take it or leave it." THIS.IS.ME. They will not easily let go of that notion, so they are also unlikely to relate to a 'search' for self.

To talk about 4s growth - 4 grows to 1 by getting into their body and expressing themselves, finding the body interesting as well as the inner life. Many 4s use their body as an outlet for their inner life - even if they are not artists... they may be a therapist for instance, helping people understand their pain just as the 4 did, helping people learn who they are.. but bringing the experience OUT OF THEMSELVES and into the world for others to relate to and see. 4s are excellent at mirroring when they're healthy, since automatically they spent so much time looking inward and identifying with their shadow, they are good at shining light onto other people's shadows as well, and helping others to accept them. 4s more than accept their shadow - they _identify with it_ - but that doesn't mean that an unhealthy 4 accepts herself.. a 4 will often feel, due to identifying with her shadow, she's unlovable, unlikable, destructive, etc.. and being healthy is realizing that everyone has a shadow just as horrid and that love is sharing our inner life, accepting ourselves and each other with all of our brokenness, and finding the beauty in their way of life and in their identity.. which transforms the identity into something wholesome.. and allows the four to begin to incorporate more elements into their identity.. like their talents, their love, their beauty, their sense of purpose (in expressing themselves), their effect on others and the effect others have on them, etc.

But asking a 4 to outgrow who they are makes no sense. Enneagram is not about changing yourself completely, it's about seeing the beauty and potential in who you are and being present. What makes a 4 less present is digging into the past and the self instead of paying attention to what is happening _now_. This is why getting into the body helps.

Making a separation between "I'm sad in my songs, but I'm happy other times," or "I wallow in my pain..." all of those things - are not a 4 mindset. A 4 mindset is about identity. "This is me." "This isn't me." There is less of a separation between "my pain" and "me," because everything a 4 feels is "me," and everything they do is "me." Outsiders may interpret 4s as "wallowing in their pain," but it is less likely a 4 would find merit in describing themselves that way, when they feel they are "digging up what is real about me." When talking about expressing their pain, a 4 may talk about the shadow in all of us, the brokenness in all of us, the weirdness and uniqueness in all of us, and the real human experience they mirror in their work. _Talking about pain, sadness and catharsis in the artistic process is absolutely universal for artists _and should not be attributed to Type X. But if you hear someone separating "my pain" from "who I am," it might be time to consider a type other than 4.


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## o0india0o

@Animal

That was both helpful, and frustrating, (lol).

I ***think*** I understand most of what you said (though I have a few questions;; if my son naps, I might get a chance to ask them). Mostly, I find myself saying: Yes. That is what I do. & wanting to cry from frustration. (lol) It's like math class all over again. :grief::hopelessness::mad-new::cower:

I relate to *everything* you said. But the part that is (_still_) confusing me and missing, is this whole "shadow" idea. I am true to myself, being myself is important to me, as is feeling *all* my feelings. What I don't understand, is if being authentic is important, and being true to yourself, than I don't think Type 4 is being authentic. I feel like I'm being _actually_ authentic and true to myself. But you're saying that to be a Type 4 (& be true to yourself and authentic) you have to be obsessed with your pain and "shadow", and I just don't get that part.

That's not authentic. I want to cry. I don't understand. AHHHHH_*!*_ :1892:

Why do you have to dig into _pain_ to understand who you are*?* Why not *all* emotions? I. don't. get. it. :frown:


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## Rose for a Heart

Lol I dislike using authenticity to describe that aspect of 4 because even I don't believe it's truly authentic. If you are doing it for the sake of your image, for the sake of your _ego_, it's not authentic.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> That was both helpful, and frustrating, (lol).
> 
> I ***think*** I understand most of what you said (though I have a few questions;; if my son naps, I might get a chance to ask them). Mostly, I find myself saying: Yes. That is what I do. & wanting to cry from frustration. (lol) It's like math class all over again. :grief::hopelessness::mad-new::cower:
> 
> I relate to *everything* you said. But the part that is (_still_) confusing me and missing, is this whole "shadow" idea. I am true to myself, being myself is important to me, as is feeling *all* my feelings. What I don't understand, is if being authentic is important, and being true to yourself, than I don't think Type 4 is being authentic. I feel like I'm being _actually_ authentic and true to myself. But you're saying that to be a Type 4 (& be true to yourself and authentic) you have to be obsessed with your pain and "shadow", and I just don't get that part.
> 
> That's not authentic. I want to cry. I don't understand. AHHHHH_*!*_ :1892:
> 
> Why do you have to dig into _pain_ to understand who you are*?* Why not *all* emotions? I. don't. get. it. :frown:


First of all, trying to understand the types as though they "make sense" may not be the best way. They are automatic defense sets against the chaos in the world. Which means they are_ lies we tell ourselves, and patterns we ingrain into ourselves, in order to survive._

I don't think you understood it because what you're not getting is identity. You're talking about pain vs. the rest of the emotions or the rest of me, but that is not a dichotomy for 4. There is no "pain vs. pleasure" dichotomy or separation. That is positive-outlook language, specifically 7. So if I were to type you based on the type of questions you repeatedly ask, I'd say stick with the 6w7/ 7w6 area.

There is no sense that you automatically relate to the identity elements that image types struggle with. You want to be your 'real' self - the idea of being "real" is shared by the whole reactive triad, 4, 6, and 8. Wanting to feel ALL your feelings sounds like a flavor of gluttony. "_I want to be and do and feel all the things!"

_This is not 4. They have an extreme, underlying need to be specific and to specialize, to fulfill their idea of their separate, "me me me" specific image; to identify with it. You're missing the identity part and focusing on experience and authenticity, which are 7 and 6 concepts more than 4. Yes - emotions are an experience. Experience isn't always about running around in the world. You want to feel all of them! You see a clear separation between "pain" and something else.. I do not. To me, every emotion, every experience, incorporates darkness and light; there is no light without darkness. I do not have the same dichotomy around pain vs. something else, that you do. The fact that you assume a separation is exactly not 4; because for 4, the separation is "me" vs. "not me." Your separation is "my pain" vs. "another part of me." I am not a sum of parts and experiences; I am my identity.

Saying 4s are inauthentic is correct. All types confuse themselves between who they really are and who they think they are. But perceiving an image-type as being 'inauthentic' because of how they deal with identity - when you yourself are _not_ an image type - is pretty common. And I would not say you are wrong. 4 is an image type after all, which means we confuse our_selves_ with our _image_ of ourselves.

So you should get the idea that "4 is authentic" out of your head. 4s being obsessed with authenticity does not render them 'authentic' or "correct" about who they are. I am saying this objectively because of enneagram study; when people said this shit to me in the past I threw reactive fits.


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## Animal

Rose for a Heart said:


> Lol I dislike using authenticity to describe that aspect of 4 because even I don't believe it's truly authentic. If you are doing it for the sake of your image, for the sake of your _ego_, it's not authentic.


Agreed!


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## o0india0o

Let me summarize what I relate to:



> 4s decided 'I'm not perfect, and I never will be, but at least I'm real, at least I'm me.'


Yes.



> Many people try to 'move forward in spite of their emotions' or convince themselves they are ok - but 4s look inside too much and are self-absorbed, so they obsess over their own inner life and inner emotions,


Check.



> Reactivity is a search for "the truth" and image reactivity is "the search for who I REALLY am." Since 4s do this automatically, they will not refer to it as a search for who they are. They will tell you, "I know who I am." This is automatic for them.


I relate to the search for who I really am, as well as feeling like I know who I am (though, this is due to searching- I feel like I was a bit more conscious and aware of this search). Seems plausible and possible.



> And the idea that "to be healthy, someone has to be happy," is an assumption, and not necessarily what everyone believes.


I don't begin to imagine that everyone believes or is striving for happiness (although, a lot of research does tend to suggest that this is a universal thing, and something many individuals strive for). I don't equate happiness with healthiness per say, but I would say that some sort of contentment in life would be close. I don't think you can be depressed and be healthy (but this is more just about my personal opinions, and I would *never* push those on anyone; or begin to believe that everyone has to agree or feel the same way as me).



> Some people don't want to be happy, per se; they want to be real, to express themselves, and to be whole.


Yes. I agree with this. I want to be real and express myself. I don't think this is mutually exclusive (or goes against) being happy. As you mentioned, Marilyn Manson is "happy". You can be true to yourself, AND be happy (in fact, I think the happiest people *are* being true to themselves;; only way to be*!*).



> when all emotions are real parts of the human experience and will serve to reveal to the 4 who they are.


We are in complete agreement about this.



> The journey to me, is. And the crucial components of 4 are identity (what makes me me, brokenness, shadow, what's really there), image (who am I really and how do I express it?), reactivity (what is the truth of who I am?), withdrawnness (attention to the inner life), etc.


I relate to all of this. _HOWEVER_ I do not focus on "brokenness" or "shadow" to exclusion. I do focus on what makes me me, what's really there (ALL OF IT), who I am and how I express it, the truth of who I am (which is what started this whole re-emergence and declaration on the forums), and withdrawing attention into my inner life.



> So 4s will claim to know who they are, and they will advise others to figure out who they are as well, as if this is the thing to do when shit hits the fan.


I relate to this. I have told my husband (Type 9) this, and continually help him get more connected to who he is and what he is about (his feelings, his identity, etc...). There is a lot to recover, since he kind of capitulated to his unhealthy Type 2 mother (who wanted him to be and do a lot of things he just went along with). Identity is of the utmost importance to me, and I was shocked by his lack of concern with his own (& keeping true to it/guarding it fiercely from outside contamination and influences). Also, as I have mentioned a million times, I _thought_ I knew who I was. The only thing that made me stop in my tracks and reconsider, was realizing that I might not know myself like I thought (which is what created this whole crisis to begin with, and why I was so upset).



> the danger is identifying with the past or the perceived shadow so strongly that they are not 'present.'


I am uncertain by what you mean by this point. I ***think*** (if I understand what you're saying correctly) I use to do this as a child (up until about... college*?* maybe*?*). But it's hard to understand you when you use the word "shadow", is there a replacement for that? A word that's more common, or a translation?



> 4 grows to 1 by getting into their body


My husband has had to help me do this for *years**!* Being a gut type, he was particularly well positioned to help me with that task. I'm sure this can be a part of a lot of other types, but I was unbelievably disconnected from my body. Also, when I would get emotionally upset and out-of-control in my emotions, my husband would help me bring my focus back to my body. He taught me deep breathing (which he naturally understood and did himself), and he would ask me, "Where are you?", "What do you see?", "What do you feel?". A lot of times my answer would be "I don't know!". He found this absurd, but, well, so did I when I asked him, "What do you feel?" and he answered with "I don't know!" :laughing:
(EDIT: I obviously have eyeballs and such, and can see. When I say "I don't know!" it's more just an irritation with the questions, and being grounded and in my body is not something I focus on).

Different strengths I guess. 
& (again) I've gotten *much* better about handling my emotions, and I do not self-harm anymore (just for the record).



> even if they are not artists... they may be a therapist for instance, helping people understand their pain just as the 4 did, helping people learn who they are.. but bringing the experience OUT OF THEMSELVES and into the world for others to relate to and see. 4s are excellent at mirroring when they're healthy, since automatically they spent so much time looking inward and identifying with their shadow, they are good at shining light onto other people's shadows as well, and helping others to accept them.


I almost was a therapist, before I decided to become an artist. :smile-new:
Mostly, I use this skill with my husband, (probably, eventually with my son), and my close friends and loved ones. I decided that it would be too much for me to bear, to give that gift out to multiple people a day. I am a sensitive person, and I think it would tax me too much. Maybe someday I will revisit this, as an art therapist (a career I had considered, but never pulled the trigger on).



> a 4 will often feel, due to identifying with her shadow, she's unlovable, unlikable, destructive, etc..


Yes. I relate to this. I think I am unloveable, out-of-control, defective, over-reactive, too sensitive, emotional, socially inept, and the list goes on, and on*!* Not sure if it's because of this mysterious "shadow" you keep mentioning [...]



> and allows the four to begin to incorporate more elements into their identity.. like their talents, their love, their beauty, their sense of purpose (in expressing themselves), their effect on others and the effect others have on them, etc.


I feel like this is *mostly* where I'm at. As evidenced in the prior answer, I have to work on seeing myself more honestly (& not just the bad parts). I'm like, half there. _Maybe_...



> There is less of a separation between "my pain" and "me," because everything a 4 feels is "me," and everything they do is "me."


I relate to this, but I do not over-identify with pain (at least, not *anymore*). I use to. When I was consumed by my feelings as a kid in my abusive home. But, I'm not anymore. Yes, yes, everything is me (including pain). Everything I do is me.



> the real human experience they mirror in their work.


Yes.


----------



## Animal

o0india0o said:


> I relate to the search for who I really am, as well as feeling like I know how I am (though, this is due to searching- I feel like I was a bit more conscious and aware of this search). Seems plausible and possible.


Ok.. so who are you?



> I don't begin to imagine that everyone believes or is striving for happiness (although, a lot of research does tend to suggest that this is a universal thing, and something many individuals strive for). I don't equate happiness with healthiness per say, but I would say that some sort of contentment in life would be close.


I don't need research to tell me what I strive for. It's not universal, since I exist, and I know several other people who feel the same way I do about 'happiness' being a fleeting emotion and not something to chase. 




> I don't think you can be depressed and be healthy (but this is more just about my personal opinions, and I would *never* push those on anyone; or begin to believe that everyone has to agree or feel the same way as me).


I never said you could be depressed and healthy. Depression is a mental illness and a medical condition, based on an imbalance of chemistry in the brain (actually it's a PHYSICAL condition that often requires medical treatment) .. whereas human pain is universal.

Why is acknowledging your pain akin to depression? Do you think those are the same? 



> Yes. I agree with this. I want to be real and express myself.


Alright then tell me who you are. Let it rip 



> I don't think this is mutually exclusive (or goes against) being happy. As you mentioned, Marilyn Manson is "happy". You can be true to yourself, AND be happy (in fact, I think the happiest people *are* being true to themselves;; only way to be*!*).


Well I agree with that, but I still don't give a fuck about focusing on who is happy and who isn't, nor do I care whether I am "happy" or not; since I only care about being real and THAT is what brings me fulfillment. You are still focusing on who is happy and who isn't, while claiming to relate to me. But what you're saying is absolutely nothing like what I am saying.

Can you describe to me what it means to be 'true to yourself' - who you are - and what happiness feels like to you? What makes you happy, and how do you know when you are 'happy?'





> I relate to all of this. _HOWEVER_ I do not focus on "brokenness" or "shadow" to exclusion.


Exclusion may be the wrong word. I addressed this in my previous post. But, the whole idea of 4 is that they have a broken line to 1. And 1 strives to be perfect, while 4 gives up on that and identifies with their shadow. So without that, you're not a 4. Period.



> I do focus on what makes me me, what's really there (ALL OF IT), who I am and how I express it, the truth of who I am (which is what started this whole re-emergence and declaration on the forums), and withdrawing attention into my inner life.


Who doesn't? Really? Can you name me 10 people who don't give a single fuck who they truly are, and who never pay attention to their inner life? The fact that you have to "withdraw" into it, implies it's NOT a constant for you. It's something you have to 'do' rather than the_ automatic defense you employ_.



> I relate to this. I have told my husband (Type 9) this, and continually help him get more connected to who he is and what he is about (his feelings, his identity, etc...). There is a lot to recover, since he kind of capitulated to his unhealthy Type 2 mother (who wanted him to be and do a lot of things he just went along with).


Yeah that tends to be a 9 issue. I actually know other 9s with 2 mothers who got overly entangled with them. 9 has a problem with loss and separation so they can over-cling and over-identify. It's a dark side of 9. But being 'not a 9' doesn't make you a 4. 9 is the type that struggles with identity the most in this particular way.



> Identity is of the utmost importance to me, and I was shocked by his lack of concern with his own (& keeping true to it/guarding it fiercely from outside contamination and influences).


Guarding it from outside influences - this is a huge thing for type 6 (whether it's your wing or your core). It's an attachment concept. I don't have to "guard" it ... I have to grow into letting outside influences get IN. However 6s are known to 'react against' outside influences since they are an attachment type and also a reactive type. Sixes care tremendously about authenticity and that is why they seek certainty; exploring things from many angles, ALL the things. They need to guard all the input that automatically comes in, whereas for me, as an ego type, it doesn't get through my thick skull.



> Also, as I have mentioned a million times, I _thought_ I knew who I was. The only thing that made me stop in my tracks and reconsider, was realizing that I might not know myself like I thought (which is what created this whole crisis to begin with, and why I was so upset).


Yeah, this is just part of human growth I would say. We all come more and more into our _real_ selves, hopefully, as we grow. Regardless of what lies we told ourselves to start out with, or what type we are.

But since you brought it up, who did you think you were, and who did you realize you truly were? How did you grow?




> I am uncertain by what you mean by this point. I ***think*** (if I understand what you're saying correctly) I use to do this as a child (up until about... college*?* maybe*?*). But it's hard to understand you when you use the word "shadow", is there a replacement for that? A word that's more common, or a translation?


Someone's dark side, inner demons, the nightmarish beast inside, the need to destroy, the hunger, the selfishness, the desperation, the monster within all of us.










> My husband has had to help me do this for *years**!* Being a gut type, he was particularly well positioned to help me with that task. I'm sure this can be a part of a lot of other types, but I was unbelievably disconnected with my body. Also, when I would get emotionally upset and out-of-control in my emotions, my husband would help me bring my focus back to my body. He taught me deep breathing (which he naturally understood and did himself), and he would ask me, "Where are you?", "What do you see?", "What do you feel?". A lot of times my answer would be "I don't know!". He found this absurd, but, well, so did I when I asked him, "What do you feel?" and he answered with "I don't know!" :laughing:
> 
> Different strengths I guess.
> & (again) I've gotten *much* better about handling my emotions, and I do not self-harm anymore (just for the record).


Type 6 also grows by getting into the body. Type 7 is not particularly embodied either, since it is a_ head _type and not a body type, so the attention is on thoughts (including thoughts about feelings).

Haha that is funny about both of you saying "I don't know!" Personally though, feeling is not the same as knowing, since I'm not a head-type  and I can't remember the last time I said I didn't know how I felt. I feel my feelings in my body. When I say that I need to get into my body, what I mean is to take "right action," like a 1; to embody my identity rather than just feeling it or explaining it. It's a bit difficult to explain, since I've always had strong style, and dressed to express myself, and done music and art and writing; so I've always had kind of a sense of purpose and some will to embody my identity... but I can also fail to realize how much time I'm spending 'identifying with' instead of 'being,' metaphorically speaking. 4s and 5s have this in common. 

This is a bit difficult to get into words -since I can be impulsive, in the moment, and act without thinking. I also write music or books without stopping to think, being a 'vessel through which passion emerges,' as if the work is coming from my unconscious - and then I edit it later and try to clean up the mess so others can read it (but at least it's real and raw!) ... The reason I say identifying instead of being, is.. I incorporate symbols of 'being an artist' into my other art.. it's like an endless cycle of this is me, this is me, this is me, and also blocking out any other influences that might detract from ME.



> I almost was a therapist, before I decided to become an artist. :smile-new:
> Mostly, I use this skill with my husband, (probably eventually with my son), and my close friends and loved ones. I decided that it would be too much for me to bear, to give that gift out to multiple people a day. I am a sensitive person, and I think it would tax me too much. Maybe someday I will revisit this, as an art therapist (a career I had considered, but never pulled the trigger on).


That's beautiful <3



> Yes. I relate to this. I think I am unloveable, out-of-control, defective, over-reactive, too sensitive, emotional, socially inept, and the list goes on, and on*!* Not sure if it's because of this mysterious "shadow" you keep mentioning [...]


Lzzy Hale from Halestorm is a very clear and obvious 7 --- and she has tons of songs along these lines.






I wouldn't say that realizing you have flaws is the same as the shadow. The shadow is more like Marilyn Manson's song. The inner DEMON. Not a list of "flaws." I think it's pretty human to have a list of flaws. Even my two 8 friends have this list. Including the 8w7. But 4 and 8 has in common, "Take it or leave it." "If you can't take my truth, you don't know what's good for you." They just deal with the rejection in an opposite way.. 8 is more "blaming the world for not being enough for them" and 4 is more "I was never part of this world anyway, and this rejection is more proof of it."


Anyway, all that aside - what are your flaws? What's "wrong with you?" Who do you believe you are - and how would you explain the crux of the problem? 




> I feel like this is *mostly* where I'm at. As evidenced in the prior answer, I have to work on seeing myself more honestly (& not just the bad parts). I'm like, half there. _Maybe_...


4s have to work on looking outward, away from the self. "Seeing themselves" is constant, but in order to be present, a 4 needs to_ embody _their identity... and also, to open themselves to more outside influence, to be less attached to their own perception.

Most people can easily understand how 5 "gets caught in their head" and doesn't take action. There's a similar concept for 4. A 4 or 5 can be 'physically active,' but there's an idea that for 5, the thoughts and inner world is "on reserve" (avarice). 4 likes to express, but there's still a sense of 'separation,' like they ARE their inner world and they are 'not part of things' - 4s even take pride in that; it is actually more rare for a 4 to feel upset by that or excluded. Their line to 2 gives them pride in 'my identity isn't integrated with these plebs who are all walking the same walk and talking the same talk. I'm more attuned, and I may be ALONE, but that's better than compromising for their dumb fake shit.' Growth is letting others, or a bigger purpose, be just as tied into their identity as "the self." So what you describe for growth is not how it works for 4, at all.





> I relate to this, but I do not over-identify with pain (at least, not *anymore*). I use to. When I was consumed by my feelings as a kid in my abusive home. But, I'm not anymore. Yes, yes, everything is me (including pain). Everything I do is me.


Sorry about your abuse and other suffering. Nobody should have to go through abuse and nothing pisses me off more than the fact that so many people do have to endure it. >:/ It's one thing to endure the hardships of life, like illness and war; but being abused by people who supposedly love us, it's so fucking unnecessary. I'm really sorry to hear it.

But to be fair, I think most people would be more consumed by their feelings in such a scenario. But if you aren't "anymore," you may want to look for a pattern that is more constant, and not dependent on circumstance, to figure out your automatic defenses that you carry with you throughout your life - in other words - another core other than 4.

Again, though, 4 doesn't over-identify with PAIN as much as DARKNESS and 'what's wrong with them." It's a very "what's wrong" type - not a list of flaws - but "my hunger," "my inner demon" "the monster within" ..like Manson's song. The boy that you love is the man that you fear.


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## o0india0o

@Animal

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I think we are misunderstanding one another, as most of what you're saying about what I wrote doesn't really align with what I meant (or thought I said). But I appreciate the effort on both our parts. :laughing:

I haven't completely written Type 6 or Type 7 off as primary. I am going to read each type in "The Wisdom of the Enneagram" book, come to some conclusions, then go over it with my husband and pick his brain about it. It seems I'm coming to the same conclusions I did prior about my tritype (though I have yet to parse out Type 1 vs. Type 9). So, it will come down to which one is primary*?*

It's possible I relate to a lot of what you're saying, simply because Type 4 is my heart-fix.

We'll see. We'll see.


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I think we are misunderstanding one another, as most of what you're saying about what I wrote doesn't really align with what I meant (or thought I said). But I appreciate the effort on both our parts. :laughing:
> 
> I haven't completely written Type 6 or Type 7 off as primary. I am going to read each type in "The Wisdom of the Enneagram" book, come to some conclusions, then go over it with my husband and pick his brain about it. It seems I'm coming to the same conclusions I did prior about my tritype (though I have yet to parse out Type 1 vs. Type 9). So, it will come down to which one is primary*?*
> 
> It's possible I relate to a lot of what you're saying, simply because Type 4 is my heart-fix.
> 
> We'll see. We'll see.


 Yeah haha, sorry if I'm being pushy.. I don't mean it as an insult at all  I'm a 468 tritype, so the only way I know how to get to the truth is to push for it and dig up all the lies. I do this to myself and to my husband and to anyone I love, so when I say lies, I'm not implying you are dishonest but that we all tell ourselves lies and I attempt to blast through them in order to communicate. I apologize if anything is offensive, presumptuous or not understanding what you're trying to say. But just know that is how I roll and it is a sign of respect coming from me.. sorry if it makes you want to curl into a ball or slap me hahahhha.  But really I am trying to help, I'm glad you can see that <3


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## o0india0o

Animal said:


> Yeah haha, sorry if I'm being pushy.. I don't mean it as an insult at all  I'm a 468 tritype, so the only way I know how to get to the truth is to push for it and dig up all the lies. I do this to myself and to my husband and to anyone I love, so when I say lies, I'm not implying you are dishonest but that we all tell ourselves lies and I attempt to blast through them in order to communicate. I apologize if anything is offensive, presumptuous or not understanding what you're trying to say. But just know that is how I roll and it is a sign of respect coming from me.. sorry if it makes you want to curl into a ball or slap me hahahhha.  But really I am trying to help, I'm glad you can see that <3


I can understand wanting to get at the truth, and dig up "lies" (or "inconsistencies", as I refer to them as); I can relate. I understand you're trying to help; I genuinely see you as a very helpful person (at least from my observations on the forums). I did not take offense, but if we were not on the forums (& I didn't have time to think before I typed), I might of got a bit defensive or reactive. I'm not likely to meet that energy; I tend to more, walk away or get reactive in an unproductive manner. :laughing:

What you said about Type 6 and authenticity was interesting. & You always give a lot of good information and insights to digest.

& Sorry if I said anything that bugged you; I was definitely struggling to understand the Type 4 concept, and might have been a bit rude in response. If ever I say or do something that hurts you, know that I would be happy to fix it and work it out (for future reference), and that I definitely don't ever want to hurt anyone or make someone feel bad. :smile-new:


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## o0india0o

@Animal

So, (& correct me if I'm misunderstanding) are you saying that to be a Type 4, you have to be dark_*?*_ Or have a strong relationship to "darkness"*?*


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## Animal

@*o0india0o*
Thank you for explaining. It means a lot to me. I can tell you do want to communicate and you actually care how you affect others.
I relate to you on this - it's very hard when discovering your type, mistype, possible types, etc.. because it HAS to get personal and get into the dark stuff, and then it feels.. naked and stripped and raw. I overreacted a lot on the forum in my typing process. Sorry you're under so much stress in your life too.


Also, I want to emphasize- nobody is gaslighting, or telling you that you aren't who you think you are. Nobody is disagreeing with your personal experience of who you are. What we are debating, is whether or not it lines up with Type X.


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## o0india0o

I think I'm going to have to take a break from questioning and discussing my Enneagram type. I'm ending up underneath the bed in an emotional mess, not eating, and becoming self-absorbed and consumed by my emotions and past. It's not a good feeling; nor does it seem healthy. I need to set a limit with myself, and let this go. I feel stupid, because it seems like I'm falling to pieces over the Enneagram, but I recognize that it's more of what not knowing myself represents, and less about the Enneagram itself (but on the surface, I still feel silly about it all).

Being a Mom is _extremely_ important to me (& I'm a [email protected] good mom at that*!* :smile-new; all of this self-focus is taking me away from what is most important to me (& it's not even the type of self-focus that is beneficial to me emotionally). I can't be so much in my head, and absorbed in my inner world. I'm just drowning myself, and not focusing on the present (or what matters most to me).

It also does not feel good to slice open and expose my seedy past for all to see. I don't think it's helping this process, and it's definitely not helping my mental sanity. Things are getting lost in translation, and I am done coming across like a maniac. :laughing:
Most of my darkness is in the past, and that's where I'd like to leave it.

Thank you all for the help*!*


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## Animal

o0india0o said:


> I think I'm going to have to take a break from questioning and discussing my Enneagram type. I'm ending up underneath the bed in an emotional mess, not eating, and becoming self-absorbed and consumed by my emotions and past. It's not a good feeling; nor does it seem healthy. I need to set a limit with myself, and let this go. I feel stupid, because it seems like I'm falling to pieces over the Enneagram, but I recognize that it's more of what not knowing myself represents, and less about the Enneagram itself (but on the surface, I still feel silly about it all).
> 
> Being a Mom is _extremely_ important to me (& I'm a [email protected] good mom at that*!* :smile-new; all of this self-focus is taking me away from what is most important to me (& it's not even the type of self-focus that is beneficial to me emotionally). I can't be so much in my head, and absorbed in my inner world. I'm just drowning myself, and not focusing on the present (or what matters most to me).
> 
> It also does not feel good to slice open and expose my seedy past for all to see. I don't think it's helping this process, and it's definitely not helping my mental sanity. Things are getting lost in translation, and I am done coming across like a maniac. :laughing:
> Most of my darkness is in the past, and that's where I'd like to leave it.
> 
> Thank you all for the help*!*


 Typing is a hard process and you are no maniac. You're a passionate person who has been through a lot of shit, trying to figure yourself out, in my opinion. I hope you feel better soon.


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## Gorgon

@o0india0o

It takes a massive set of ovaries to expose your guts like that. Throughout this exchange, I've deeply felt your joys, your anxieties, and your frustrations, and for you to put yourself out there, with all your past wounds out on display and revealing all of your vulnerabilities in real time, this has been a raw experience. I don't harbor any judgement towards you, if anything, I'm amazed with your willingness to be openly honest with EVERYONE on here as that takes a degree of humility, and yes bravery. We all could benefit from having a little more humility and self-awareness on here. Congratulations on motherhood. I can't imagine how it's like, but I bet it's both rewarding and tough.


----------



## o0india0o

@Thanatesque

Thank you. You have no idea what your kind words mean to me. <3

P.S. I really like your signature quote, as well as the cat butt image;; it made me laugh.


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## Gorgon

o0india0o said:


> @Thanatesque
> 
> Thank you. You have no idea what your kind words mean to me. <3
> 
> P.S. I really like your signature quote, as well as the cat butt image;; it made me laugh.


There's not enough cat butt appreciation going on in the world and I'm trying to do my part in spreading the love :blushed::wink:


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## mistakenforstranger

o0india0o said:


> I think I'm going to have to take a break from questioning and discussing my Enneagram type. I'm ending up underneath the bed in an emotional mess, not eating, and becoming self-absorbed and consumed by my emotions and past. It's not a good feeling; nor does it seem healthy. I need to set a limit with myself, and let this go. I feel stupid, because it seems like I'm falling to pieces over the Enneagram, but I recognize that it's more of what not knowing myself represents, and less about the Enneagram itself (but on the surface, I still feel silly about it all).
> 
> Being a Mom is _extremely_ important to me (& I'm a [email protected] good mom at that*!* :smile-new; all of this self-focus is taking me away from what is most important to me (& it's not even the type of self-focus that is beneficial to me emotionally). I can't be so much in my head, and absorbed in my inner world. I'm just drowning myself, and not focusing on the present (or what matters most to me).
> 
> It also does not feel good to slice open and expose my seedy past for all to see. I don't think it's helping this process, and it's definitely not helping my mental sanity. Things are getting lost in translation, and I am done coming across like a maniac. :laughing:
> Most of my darkness is in the past, and that's where I'd like to leave it.
> 
> Thank you all for the help*!*


I'm really sorry you feel this way, and you should in no way feel you have to revisit your difficult past to show us your "darkness," based on the misleading notion that this is all a Type 4 amounts to. Identifying with the darkness is an unhealthy 4, but is not a pervading characteristic of the type. Why wouldn't 4s desire happiness? Most 4s don't believe they deserve to be happy because of how "bad" they believe themselves to be, or because happiness is too "common" (Everyone wants to be happy while I SUFFER because of who I am), but a healthy 4, or at least a 4 on the way to growth doesn't see themselves as outside of this, because they see their inherent humanity and have a universal connection to everyone, as opposed to feeling separate from it all. Identifying with the darkness is a side-effect (and dramatization) of one's core wound that makes them inherently different from others. You seem as if you are in a much better place now, so you naturally wouldn't see yourself in the picture of 4s that is being used here as the template.

I haven't seen enough of you to definitively type you, but I see either a 4 integrating to 1 (though, it seems to be doing the opposite effect because you're over-focusing on your identity now), or 6/7 themes. You seem too reactive to be 7, but I have a sx-7 friend who is even more intense, emotional, and yes, reactive than I am. I even thought she could be a 4w3, but she runs from her problems.


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## Rose for a Heart

@mistakenforstranger I feel like what @Animal might be trying to say is that 4s chase meaning more than anything else. Although I don't think there's a single type who does that, but what better place to discover something truly meaningful than in the root of the suffering and misery. That they would rather do THAT than to find a way to be happy by "positive mindset" etc. 

Althought I don't know if that's specific to a type...lot's of people care about finding meaning.

I have myself been in a terrible place. The last time I was here it was beyond painful and I was suicidal, I don't know how I can keep doing this. And as much as I wish I didn't do this, I keep digging in deeper, to find some semblance of meaning, to know who I really am, what really matters. What is universal and essential. I haven't eaten, I have been crying for days. Not that there was no distraction ever...there was. But for the most part I don't even want to distract myself. Sure there are things to be happy about, but this pain, this feels real. When there is suffering, it's pointing towards something that matters more to you than those superficial distractions.


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## mistakenforstranger




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## Rose for a Heart

I didn't really say pain is more real. I said pain tells you what matters most to you...and to me it feels like if I'm going to find actual happiness it would only be by understanding my suffering.


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## mistakenforstranger

Rose for a Heart said:


> I didn't really say pain is more real. I said pain tells you what matters most to you...and to me it feels like if I'm going to find actual happiness it would only be by understanding my suffering.


Oh sorry, yes that is Viktor Frankl's view, to find meaning in one's suffering. I've always loved this quote.


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## Gorgon

@mistakenforstranger You're not wrong about four per se nor do I want to be dismissive of your experience. When 4 integrates to 1, the 4 may still identify with their "shadow" but they wouldn't be so obsessively attached to it the point where it's the only lens through which they view themselves and others. The ultimate program of the 4 is not to seek happiness, or even meaning, it's _truth_. Meaning and significance are important to fours, but the primary reason why these things are important to them is because they ultimately lead to uncovering the essence of who they are. Pain, suffering, darkness are universal elements we all endure or have to confront, and fours want to bring this truth to light through identifying and embodying their shadow, however fours can over-identify with their shadow so much they end up alienating themselves from others and deceiving themselves. When 4s integrate to 1, they start developing a more objective view of themselves which includes recognizing and accepting their pain, defects, and ugliness, but rather than feeling shame towards to these elements or, on the other hand, developing a countershame attitude towards these aspects (countershame is still shame), they acknowledge the value their shadow provides. Once they realize this, they are able to recognize and appreciate the goodness (even in all its mundanity) they posses, and don't feel the need to differentiate themselves from others. 

As for o0india0o needing to bring up her past to prove her 4ness, I didn't see that (though I can understand where you're coming from). As Rose for a Heart mentioned, there's a value in looking at the roots of someone's pain, how can you not when we're looking at fixations, defense mechanisms, and the existential and spiritual distortions that result from these (I know you know all of this). And her being in a healthier place doesn't preclude her, or anyone, from having a down slump or going through a psychologically difficult time. Integration means that someone is better equipped with dealing with their fixations and uncovering their worth, not reaching a state of nirvana.


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## Rose for a Heart

Do others not chase after "essence"? As in other types...because I feel like a lot of people do. The more I understand myself the more blurry all these different "fixation" or whatever look like...
also wanted to share that I feel like self-love is the only enduring meaningful thing at this point. I feel like that's real, but that's all that's real. Idk I have been in a very depressed place. Maybe our essence is love.


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## mistakenforstranger

Thanatesque said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* You're not wrong about four per se nor do I want to be dismissive of your experience. When 4 integrates to 1, the 4 may still identify with their "shadow" but they wouldn't be so obsessively attached to it the point where it's the only lens through which they view themselves and others. The ultimate program of the 4 is not to seek happiness, or even meaning, it's _truth_. Meaning and significance are important to fours, but the primary reason why these things are important to them is because they ultimately lead to uncovering the essence of who they are. Pain and suffering are universal elements we all endure, fours want to bring this truth to light through identifying and embodying their shadow, however fours can over-identify with their shadow so much they end up alienating themselves from others and deceiving themselves. When 4s integrate to 1, they start developing a more objective view of themselves which includes recognizing and accepting their pain, defects, and ugliness, but rather than feeling shame towards to these elements or, on the other hand, developing a countershame attitude towards these aspects (countershame is still shame), they acknowledge the value their shadow provides. Once they realize this, they are able to recognize and appreciate the goodness (even in all its mundanity) they posses, and don't feel the need to differentiate themselves from others.


I mean, I just wrote this somewhere else before your post haha.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I don't think it's about pushing away the humanity or flaws of anyone in seeking a healthier mindset. It's about viewing your flaws as good, or seeing that the flaw isn't a "bad" thing about one's self. While focusing on one's flaws to the exclusion of all else only exacerbates the tendency towards depression, etc. Why is it bad that I want to be healthy?


As I see it, the "shadow" can never be separated from one's self, because, in essence, the shadow is the real, true self of a 4. It's only that the 4 sees the real self in negative terms (i.e. the shadow) because the 4 at an early age was rejected/unloved for who they truly were, abandonment. Thus, it's the return to the true self, as it is, one's origin, that is a 4's path. 

Appreciate you making this clearer.


----------



## Animal

@*mistakenforstranger*
I think you are misreading what I am trying to say about 4s. I have mentioned many times that I am overall a happy person with a very beautiful life and productive mindset, even though I have a chronic illness. I have a great relationship with my family, extremely successful marriage and I am chasing my dreams. It is not fair to paint me as an unhealthy 4. I am actually excelling at this point in my life and have overcome many hardships. I'm far from perfect, but I am not unhealthy. I know what very unhealthy looks like. It is 20 years in my past. I know what halfway healthy looks like. It is 10 years in my past. At this point, I've come a long way. I don't appreciate AT ALL the repeated assumption that I'm unhealthy. 

I'm trying to explain the type 4 experience and ongoing struggle. Explaining the root of a type as it is experienced and as it is outlined in literature, does not make me unhealthy. What you are saying about my descriptions being 'unhealthy' is self-serving and presumptuous and I would appreciate if you would stop. You don't agree with how I conceptualize 4 - fine. But leave my health _the fuck_ out of it.

Nobody ever stops to think about how their posts might affect ME. I try to help someone with their typing, someone who _kept asking me to explain and thanking me for taking the time_.... but because I am challenging what I see as misconceptions about type 4, and trying to explain how 4 is outlined in literature and how the elements break down (withdrawn, reactive , line to 1, etc).. and how I personally relate to them, and how I'm not seeing those basic elements in her posts.. suddenly I'm the big bad wolf who can be told I'm gaslighting and that I'm unhealthy? Why? Has anyone ever once stopped to think that maybe I have feelings too? Ever? I ripped my guts open and made myself vulnerable in this thread too, believe it or not. Do I have to act like a helpless victim in order to deserve basic respect and compassion?


----------



## Daeva

If you don't see yourself mirrored in the dark underbelly of a type, then count yourself lucky, for this is not the demon that haunts you.

Health should never be a factor in typing. It is the "me" at our _worst _that defines the "me" at our _best_. Take one out of the equation and you're living a lie.

Dare look at yourself in the mirror. *Face yourself.* Face the demon that stares back at you.


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## Animal

@*mistakenforstranger*
Since I talked to you elsewhere I realize I might have taken that the wrong way, so it's all good (even though you haven't responded here)

Anyway - to clarify something about my own darkness -

For me, my darkness is the same as my light. I can never embody one at the exclusion of the other. I am not the darkness and I am not the light. Both are possible potentials of my nature as it is.

At my worst I'm a vampire feeding on the blood of the living, and at my best I'm a vessel through which passion emerges. Both are one and the same- both are mixing and transforming energy - but one is taking while the other is giving. Both are mirroring the depths of the other person, and the depths of myself, and both set things aflame and ignite transformation.

But both of them have a good and bad sides - even the vampire has a good side in that it drains people of *bullshit* energy, strips them down to their bare core and forces them to face it. The vessel has a bad side too, in that in order to communicate my inner life, I have to pull back from living it, so that creates separation from the world. It is my life's purpose to be a mirror for the inner world, and through my own discoveries help others to see their own (and I've been told my work has done this already for some people); but, there is always a sacrifice in anything, and the sacrifice is the bare, raw animalism I am trying to convey must be conveyed through editing, processes, practicing, and so forth. The vampire can do what she does in the flesh.. and there is beauty to that, so I would never want to lose her. Without the vampire, there would be nothing to put into the vessel. 










I don't identify with my darkness - I identify with the spectrum of potential within that needs to be balanced. I need my life and my expression to be 'so carnal it's spiritual.' I need to be in touch with my most base nature in order to experience true transcendence, even in moments.

The specific way I describe myself as a vampire and vessel is Sx-ish, but the idea of someone's darkness and light coming from the same place (identity) is more 4ish in nature. Since 4s over"identify" so they tend to work out who they are and how energy passes through them. They want to embrace the whole of themselves - excluding nothing. So it's not about good and bad, health and unhealth etc. That doesn't mean no 4 in the world would care about that, but the essence of 4 is the identification process and attributing meaning and identity to all these emotions, changes, perceptions, passions and so forth. The 4 wants to embrace everything that has to do with the self, without creating distinction; even if they really want to get healthy. To speak for myself, I worked hard to face the demons inside me that were eating me alive, so that I could transform them, blow up like a phoenix, and be whole.


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## Lord Bullingdon

o0india0o said:


> I am obsessing over this stupid Enneagram stuff (probably to an unhealthy degree). I don't know why it's so important this time around. It's just driving me *insane* to not understand myself, know myself, and to not have a "place" for me to belong and fit. It's like I'm trying to solve that joke "Who's on first*?*", except there is nothing to solve, so round and round we go. If I'm not a Type 4, that makes me want to devolve to tears, because that means I am one of the other Types that I don't fit very well with (as I've done a lot of research on the other Types; Type 4 was the only outlier).
> 
> I'm forfeiting nap time breaks to read Enneagram, write on the forums, and fixate on this idea that's consuming me. All of which I realize is stupid, but I'm having a hard time stopping (& it's *exhausting*). Sometimes, when I want something, I go after it until I get it. Period. I can be intense. & ridiculous. Though, I usually end up getting what I want; so it can be a strength.
> 
> ....
> 
> It's frustrating and feels negating to have someone go through what you write and your experience and say, "no, no, no. wrong, wrong, wrong." Whether that is your intent or not, there is a chorus of people on here telling me I'm wrong about who I think I am, but I don't understand enough about the type to say otherwise. It feels like a million red marks all over a paper you hand in at school. & Then I get to watch people "Thank" your posts, knowing that the sea of people out there don't think I'm a Type 4, don't understand me, and to make matters worse, know a lot of stuff about me that they now might be judging. I'm dying. But I keep pushing. Exhausting, Exhausting, Exhausting.
> 
> We all fall down.





o0india0o said:


> I think I'm going to have to take a break from questioning and discussing my Enneagram type. I'm ending up underneath the bed in an emotional mess, not eating, and becoming self-absorbed and consumed by my emotions and past. It's not a good feeling; nor does it seem healthy. I need to set a limit with myself, and let this go. I feel stupid, because it seems like I'm falling to pieces over the Enneagram, but I recognize that it's more of what not knowing myself represents, and less about the Enneagram itself (but on the surface, I still feel silly about it all).


Wow, your honesty here is really cool. And I know exactly how you feel. I've been through all of this, word for word. I think you've captured what many people really go through during the typing process, and why forums can be a difficult place to be. 

Not only can the enneagram be infinitely confusing, but plenty of people have real-world things to cope with as well. I personally first started commenting on forums during some of the worst moments of my life, and some of the things I endured...did not make it better. I think we collectively forget there's a living breathing human being behind the screen sometimes, and that's really unfortunate.

I just want to comment on your situation for a second because it's so familiar to me. 

First, I don't think enneagram confusion necessarily has anything to do with type, but it is instead a broader psychological phenomenon (others may disagree). Like, you just want the damn answer, and people try to interpret every word you write as something it may or may not be (no offense to others who have commented on this thread, and no I'm not being "passive aggressive", it's just something I remember feeling myself at one point in my typing history). You feel more lost than before. Soon you're wondering about it 24/7. Like it takes over your life because it is _just so galling_. It's so simple and everyone else seems to have a type...so why doesn't it work for me??

May I offer unsolicited advice? I won't say anything about your type, and you can stop me if I'm being stupid and wrong. Here goes...

I think the problem in your case may be the same problem I had. It wasn't a lack of self-awareness--quite the opposite. It was like, everything about myself was under scrutiny and I lost a sense of what was even important anymore. I listened to people interpreting my own words seven different ways and took their advice seriously...it's just confusing. It had nothing to do with "constant doubt"; it was simply a lack of good information. You have to arrive at your own understanding of type...and no matter how awesome and knowledgeable people are online, they can't build that for you.

Ultimately, I think there is a gap in your understanding of what it really means to be each type. There was for me, anyway. It really helped me to just look at myself and the kind of things I really thought before getting into enneagram. My most deeply-held sentiments. Then forget about everything I thought I knew about the enneagram, and do some hardcore theoretical reading, independent of PerC. (I think this is the most I've willingly read in my life). I've kept a journal of my insights, which has helped me as well.

Ultimately, you have to build your own understanding of the inner workings of each type--and remember that's what they are really. Psychological structures. Worldviews. Life patterns. Motivations and reactions. I don't necessarily disagree with the premise that you have to examine your negative behaviors and pain to really get at the core of your type, but it's important to remember that the types are so much more than any one facet of behavior or issue in your life. No use looking for the perfect fit--there isn't one.

I dunno if it will work for you, but that's what helped me anyway. I had to do my own investigations and get beyond popular conceptions of the types. And in the end, your type is what you say it is, and it doesn't matter if people disagree with you--they disagree with me all the time, anyway. While this can be frustrating at times, the fact of the matter is that irl I've come to understand myself deeply and can now work on getting rid of things about myself that have held me back. Once you realize it, you're free. And you have the last laugh regardless of what happens on forums. 

So take heart--I think if you are sincere and persistent in your quest, and if you truly listen to yourself, you will one day find the answers you seek. One day, it really does come together, and it is _*worth the journey*_. Best of luck, and feel free to PM me any time if you'd like.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@*o0india0o* I think that you should take a break from hoarding information and let yourself process it, as you may get a clearer view if you do your own normal activities while this stuff solidifies. Otherwise you will get an info overloard and that won't help you to understand the core of each type and see which mechanisms are the ones that click with you. Besides, that way you can also contrast your own issues with the types at your own pace.


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## Gorgon

Pretty much echoing similar sentiments that were expressed here. I had a similar experience to @o0india0o and @Lord Bullingdon's when it came to my enneagram journey in terms of how it rattled my conception of myself and shedding light on issues I wasn't previously aware of, or at least reframing them in a way that really cut through to my core, and obsessively consuming anything enneagram related to alleviate my frustration and anxiety (all of this occurred privately rather than on a forum but like that's any better). o0India0o get some rest and engage in some self-care if you can. Maybe set aside enneagram for the time being. Good luck on your journey. You can also PM if you want.


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## Animal

@star tripper
Nobody fits stereotypical descriptions. It's very difficult to describe a type when humans are dynamic and their specifics are different. A good description of Type X would be a couple paragraphs of solid, "this is the core of the type, nothing more, nothing less" - without tons of extra bullshit. The hard part is pairing it down to what is really essential to the type.

There's instincts, tritype, upbringing, trauma or lack thereof, gender, social environment (ie a black and white person on the same street in the same economic class in a racist area), health (a chronically ill person in the same family as a healthy person) ... so many factors that make up a person. So saying something like "A 4 wants a rescuer" is bullshit - what if the 4 has a good family who taught them self-sufficiency and responsibility by example and by enforcing it. Also "wanting to be rescued" is inevitable for all humans at some dark point in their lives. Even an 8 given enough trauma and pain will reach that point; you could say the lust is a need to consume or control someone else to fill your own emptiness, and likewise an 8 might feel like they need someone to meet their energy, they need someone who can "handle them," etc. Everyone needs someone for something, and the more pain we are in, the more we dream about anything that would lessen it. So it's not specifically a 4 marker, even if the 4s who do experience that feeling, are more willing to talk about it and to identify with it as a 'trait' because of the nature of 4s' owning their own darkness and over-identifying with their flaws.
Personally I'm a 4 and I don't identify with that trait. I identify with a negative trait on the opposite end of the same spectrum - too much autonomy, not needy enough, therefore, unlikable, impersonable, and unlovable. That's partly because I'm social last, partly because I'm 8 fixed, and perhaps partly because of how and where and when I was raised. 4 is also a withdrawn type, so the likelihood of various 4s turning inward and saying "the problem is ME, nobody can save me" is pretty high.

Do you see what I mean - the traits in books are not always a fair coverage of the essential nature of a type.


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## star tripper

Animal said:


> @star tripper
> Nobody fits stereotypical descriptions. It's very difficult to describe a type when humans are dynamic and their specifics are different. A good description of Type X would be a couple paragraphs of solid, "this is the core of the type, nothing more, nothing less" - without tons of extra bullshit. The hard part is pairing it down to what is really essential to the type.
> 
> There's instincts, tritype, upbringing, trauma or lack thereof, gender, social environment (ie a black and white person on the same street in the same economic class in a racist area), health (a chronically ill person in the same family as a healthy person) ... so many factors that make up a person. So saying something like "A 4 wants a rescuer" is bullshit - what if the 4 has a good family who taught them self-sufficiency and responsibility by example and by enforcing it. Also "wanting to be rescued" is inevitable for all humans at some dark point in their lives. Even an 8 given enough trauma and pain will reach that point; you could say the lust is a need to consume or control someone else to fill your own emptiness, and likewise an 8 might feel like they need someone to meet their energy, they need someone who can "handle them," etc. Everyone needs someone for something, and the more pain we are in, the more we dream about anything that would lessen it. So it's not specifically a 4 marker, even if the 4s who do experience that feeling, are more willing to talk about it and to identify with it as a 'trait' because of the nature of 4s' owning their own darkness and over-identifying with their flaws.
> Personally I'm a 4 and I don't identify with that trait. I identify with a negative trait on the opposite end of the same spectrum - too much autonomy, not needy enough, therefore, unlikable, impersonable, and unlovable. That's partly because I'm social last, partly because I'm 8 fixed, and perhaps partly because of how and where and when I was raised. 4 is also a withdrawn type, so the likelihood of various 4s turning inward and saying "the problem is ME, nobody can save me" is pretty high.
> 
> Do you see what I mean - the traits in books are not always a fair coverage of the essential nature of a type.


It kinda seems shitty to say now considering how big this post is, but literature descriptions weren't a huge part of my point, just an example, and mostly an easy illustration that represents a larger point.

My point was about viewing type as a dynamic entity rather than a static one. Most of the time, enneagram types are viewed from a static perspective, even in the questionnaires we have stickied. The reason people constantly feel as though they don't fit a type is because they don't see themselves as a static entity. "Sure I do this, but I also do this which totes contradicts the former." We see our own paradoxes and can't construct a narrative that can take them all into account. There's also the blind spots. Not instinctual blind spots, but being in denial of certain habits and thinking patterns.

I see it on the forum. I can see people who bolster themselves as 7s and even unconsciously punch up their language to reflect the archetypal 7. But when you examine the way they frame their sentences and their style of posting and their admitted desires... you can actually see traces of "fallen 4," of defensive 8, and ultimately of an edgy 2. Similarly, you will see users who very openly admit to not giving a shit about so (self-typing as so-last) but yet unwittingly frame their writing around the social instinct.

And that's because the static image of 7 matches them more than the static image of 2. I'm guilty too. The static image of 7 matches me very well, but I have never been able to reconcile integration to 5 (I actually have multiple posts from the dawn of time about how I need to STOP focusing and start ACTING). And yes, instincts and tritypes help create a more comprehensive picture, but I don't think they give as much information about the core type itself, and I think it's harder to find your core type than fixes and instincts combined.

Another problem I agree with that you raised is people are too willing to attribute something not enneagram-related to enneagram. Not every nuance can be attributed to the system.

So... I don't think we're in disagreement with one another, but the descriptions weren't really a major part of my point so much as an easy (and admittedly lazy) example.


----------



## Animal

oops double post


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## Animal

@star tripper
I know, I read the rest of your post. I just wanted to add an additional point. I was not disagreeing or agreeing. I meant no offense or no argument by what I posted. I just felt like writing that since it has come up a lot lately and your post reminded me.


----------



## Coburn

@Animal

Mistype Revelation me!




I'm actually just really bored and in a chatty mood. Don't add to your workload. You're already hauling ass on this thread. At some point I'll have to grab you to talk about theory, though. You've got some different insights.


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## star tripper

Animal said:


> @star tripper
> I know, I read the rest of your post. I just wanted to add an additional point. I was not disagreeing or agreeing. I meant no offense or no argument by what I posted. I just felt like writing that since it has come up a lot lately and your post reminded me.


Cool. 

Yeah, it's like the forum is crawling with "I don't fit this archetype EXACTLY." And you're not supposed to!

You brought up the whole rescuer thing. That's a good example. My 4w3 friend SWEARS she doesn't need a rescuer. She doesn't think she needs anyone and that her fierce independence is her real problem. She perceives herself as the antithesis of needy. I'd send her descriptions of the 4 just to see how she'd react, and she'd say, "Doesn't really sound like me. I'm not searching for myself. I KNOW myself. That sounds more like you tbh." She also doesn't use the word unique because she sees that word as describing herself in relation to others. "I'm not unlike everyone else; I'm just me." So she actively disagrees with the 4 descriptions but with hilariously 4-like justifications lol.

I see it the most with 2 and 9 though. 2s and 9s will say they're NOT 2 and 9 because they don't do this stereotype... but they'll explain it in the most 2-like/9-like language ever. Further, I think people describe themselves better when they aren't describing a current state. So you'll see a closeted 9 openly talking about their 3- or 6-phase but they'll interpret it as something else.

So now I'm wondering what happens when you stop typing your average state and instead start charting your energy flow. Whenever I see someone who has a big revelation that they've been mistyped for years, I go through their old posts and see if the evidence was there the entire time, and it WAS. It's incredible. Sometimes people will spell out their real type right there in the wrong forum. It's like they have the puzzle pieces, and they even have them all PIECED TOGETHER in a comprehensive picture; however the puzzle is upside-down. And then something triggers the user to spin the table round and they're like, "Oh shit! I'm a 4!"


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Heh. Maube I'll realize I'm secretly a 7 someday, then.


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## Animal

star tripper said:


> Cool.
> 
> Yeah, it's like the forum is crawling with "I don't fit this archetype EXACTLY." And you're not supposed to!
> 
> You brought up the whole rescuer thing. That's a good example. My 4w3 friend SWEARS she doesn't need a rescuer. *She doesn't think she needs anyone and that her fierce independence is her real problem. She perceives herself as the antithesis of needy*. I'd send her descriptions of the 4 just to see how she'd react, and she'd say, "Doesn't really sound like me. *I'm not searching for myself. I KNOW myself.* That sounds more like you tbh." *She also doesn't use the word unique because she sees that word as describing herself in relation to others. "I'm not unlike everyone else; I'm just me." *So she actively disagrees with the 4 descriptions but with hilariously 4-like justifications lol.


 Holy hell. Those are exactly the reasons I refused to type at 4. Seriously. Every single thing you listed here came out of my mouth for a year as I insisted I was an 8 or a 3 or anything but 4, for the exact reasons you mentioned. Even though you didn't ask my opinion on your friend's type and I don't know your friend, I already agree with it. ;D Yes, those are 4-like reasons, as I came to learn, much to my own annoyance.



> I see it the most with 2 and 9 though. 2s and 9s will say they're NOT 2 and 9 because they don't do this stereotype... but they'll explain it in the most 2-like/9-like language ever. Further, I think people describe themselves better when they aren't describing a current state. So you'll see a closeted 9 openly talking about their 3- or 6-phase but they'll interpret it as something else.
> 
> So now I'm wondering what happens when you stop typing your average state and instead start charting your energy flow. Whenever I see someone who has a big revelation that they've been mistyped for years, I go through their old posts and see if the evidence was there the entire time, and it WAS. It's incredible. Sometimes people will spell out their real type right there in the wrong forum. It's like they have the puzzle pieces, and they even have them all PIECED TOGETHER in a comprehensive picture; however the puzzle is upside-down. And then something triggers the user to spin the table round and they're like, "Oh shit! I'm a 4!"


 Seriously, I couldn't agree more about them spelling it out. Sometimes it's spelled out better when they mistype. I wrote some 4 gems on the 8 forum, without knowing it. On the 4 forum it's like.. what do I even say that isn't being said by my type label. lol


----------



## Animal

Coburn said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> Mistype Revelation me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually just really bored and in a chatty mood. Don't add to your workload. You're already hauling ass on this thread. At some point I'll have to grab you to talk about theory, though. You've got some different insights.


 Ohh I was hoping you'd ask! I was on your typing thread recently.  For what it's worth, I saw a lot of 5ish stuff. But I'm open minded, I haven't talked to you directly yet. What's on your mind? I always love talking about theory.


----------



## Coburn

Animal said:


> Ohh I was hoping you'd ask! I was on your typing thread recently.  For what it's worth, I saw a lot of 5ish stuff. But I'm open minded, I haven't talked to you directly yet. What's on your mind? I always love talking about theory.


Were you really? What made you hold back in the type me section? Feel free to say what you think. Reading between the lines is not my strong suit.

It's funny...for us both being on here for years, we've hardly spoken. I think it's because you spend more time in threads I don't.

What really struck me about your posts was your comment on four rejecting one. Perhaps I didn't read far enough back, but where does that idea stem from? And why is it rejection of the integration point? A little more background on how the idea came about would be good. It's a new angle of looking at it I hadn't considered.


----------



## Coburn

@Animal

Also, regarding your "core paragraphs" suggestion...What would those paragraphs be framed around? What content do you view as bare bones essential?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Animal said:


> Holy hell. Those are exactly the reasons I refused to type at 4. Seriously. Every single thing you listed here came out of my mouth for a year as I insisted I was an 8 or a 3 or anything but 4, for the exact reasons you mentioned. Even though you didn't ask my opinion on your friend's type and I don't know your friend, I already agree with it. ;D Yes, those are 4-like reasons, as I came to learn, much to my own annoyance.
> 
> Seriously, I couldn't agree more about them spelling it out. Sometimes it's spelled out better when they mistype. I wrote some 4 gems on the 8 forum, without knowing it. On the 4 forum it's like.. what do I even say that isn't being said by my type label. lol


Heh. And I refused to type at 4 because I refuse to be "Envious". Fuck that shit, I don't need to be like others or have what they have.

What got to me, when I got into the theory, was reading about the specifics in Wisdom of the Enneagram for each type...and finding the 4 and 5 area matched best.

Aaah. Good times.


----------



## Animal

@Coburn those are great questions - I'm a bit tired now, but I will respond when I'm awake and have a minute, to give them the clarity they deserve.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

star tripper said:


> You brought up the whole rescuer thing. That's a good example. My 4w3 friend SWEARS she doesn't need a rescuer. She doesn't think she needs anyone and that her fierce independence is her real problem. She perceives herself as the antithesis of needy. I'd send her descriptions of the 4 just to see how she'd react, and she'd say, "Doesn't really sound like me. I'm not searching for myself. I KNOW myself. That sounds more like you tbh." She also doesn't use the word unique because she sees that word as describing herself in relation to others. "I'm not unlike everyone else; I'm just me." So she actively disagrees with the 4 descriptions but with hilariously 4-like justifications lol.


What is your friend's MBTI type? Just checking because that can be Fi rather than 4, too. I've seen that in my ENFP 7 friend, for example, that she KNOWS who she is; She can seem 4-ish in this sense. I'd be surprised if 4s weren't trying to find themselves in some way. It can almost be an obsession because it is so elusive this idea of "Who am I? What is my purpose?"

Kierkegaard, usually typed 4w5:



> What I really need is to get clear about what I must do, not what I must know, except insofar as knowledge must precede every act. *What matters is to find a purpose, to see what it really is that God wills that I shall do; the crucial thing is to find a truth which is truth for me, to find the idea for which I am willing to live and die.*


Riso-Hudson on 4s:



> Fours base their identity on their internal feeling states ("I am what I feel"), so they tend to check in on their feelings more than the other types. (Usually Fours are more attuned to their emotional reactions to an experience than to the experience itself.) But the one sure thing about feelings is that they always change. This presents a problem.* If their identity is based on feelings, and their feelings are always changing, then their identity is always changing.*"





> Average Fours insist on being themselves and on putting their personal stamp on everything. *Increasingly, their self-image becomes based on how unlike other people they are*...Maintaining feelings unlike those of others reinforces a Four's identity. Thus their characteristic Social Role is the Special One, or the Mysterious Outsider, and they feel ill at ease unless they are interacting with others from this role.





> Working consistently in the real world will create a context in which you can discover yourself and your talents. (Actually, you are happiest when you are working—that is, activating your potentials and realizing yourself. *You will not "find yourself" in a vacuum or while waiting for inspiration to strike, so connect—and stay connected—with the real world.*


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Coburn said:


> Were you really? What made you hold back in the type me section? Feel free to say what you think. Reading between the lines is not my strong suit.
> 
> It's funny...for us both being on here for years, we've hardly spoken. I think it's because you spend more time in threads I don't.
> 
> What really struck me about your posts was your comment on four rejecting one. *Perhaps I didn't read far enough back, but where does that idea stem from? And why is it rejection of the integration point?* A little more background on how the idea came about would be good. It's a new angle of looking at it I hadn't considered.


(haven't read anyone else's response to this)

I'd imagine that the idea here is that the rejection of the integration point is what causes the lack of being in the "healthy" state, with stronger rejection leading to the unhealthy states.


----------



## star tripper

mistakenforstranger said:


> What is your friend's MBTI type? Just checking because that can be Fi rather than 4, too. I've seen that in my ENFP 7 friend, for example, that she KNOWS who she is; She can seem 4-ish in this sense. I'd be surprised if 4s weren't trying to find themselves in some way. It can almost be an obsession because it is so elusive this idea of "Who am I? What is my purpose?"
> 
> Kierkegaard, usually typed 4w5:
> 
> 
> 
> Riso-Hudson on 4s:


She is Fi, but I don't think 4s are generally AWARE of what you bolded. Yes, they do all that, but I'd be skeptical of if they know they're doing it because that awareness would threaten their ego, I think.

That's why I started suspecting Axl Rose was a 4 actually. He has that same reactionary, "No THIS is me," thing going for him, but for someone so sure of who he is, he does an awful lot of self-exploration.

I'm speculating now, though. I'm hardly a 4 expert.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

star tripper said:


> That's why I started suspecting Axl Rose was a 4 actually. He has that same *reactionary, "No THIS is me," thing *going for him, but for someone so sure of who he is, he does an awful lot of self-exploration.


I don't know who the person you are referring to is, but I would be curious to hear more about what you have observed in bolded (in general, for 4s).


----------



## star tripper

Rose for a Heart said:


> I don't know who the person you are referring to is, but I would be curious to hear more about what you have observed in bolded (in general, for 4s).


I have to leave for work in a few minutes, so I'll go into deeper detail later, but Axl Rose is the lead singer of Guns N' Roses. He has this fiery, explosive personality that frequently circles back to, "YOU PEOPLE made me. YOU PEOPLE created this monster and now you want me to change it? To shut up? To take your bullshit? Fuck that. This is me. I'm here to stay." Everything is a personal affront to who he is, and he is absolutely notorious for his inability to compromise.

I don't necessarily think all 4s are that "big" (he's also sx/sp, has an 8-fix, and is very likely triple reactive with a slight possibility of 487), but they do experience that unique brand of defensiveness.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

star tripper said:


> She is Fi, but I don't think 4s are generally AWARE of what you bolded. Yes, they do all that, but I'd be skeptical of if they know they're doing it because that awareness would threaten their ego, I think.
> 
> That's why I started suspecting Axl Rose was a 4 actually. He has that same reactionary, "No THIS is me," thing going for him, but for someone so sure of who he is, he does an awful lot of self-exploration.
> 
> I'm speculating now, though. I'm hardly a 4 expert.


I don't know much about Axl Rose, but I'd be more inclined to say he's a reactive counterphobic sx-6.

A 4 on Axl Rose, using 4-like reasons:


* *














Riso-Hudson again: 

"Fearing that they do not have an identity or any personal significance of their own, Fours treat people disdainfully, as if others were nobodies and had no value and significance."


* *














As an aside, I don't know why people, including Riso-Hudson, always type him as a 5. I see a clear 4.


----------



## star tripper

mistakenforstranger said:


> I don't know much about Axl Rose, but I'd be more inclined to say he's a reactive counterphobic sx-6.
> 
> A 4 on Axl Rose, using 4-like reasons:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Riso-Hudson again:
> 
> "Fearing that they do not have an identity or any personal significance of their own, Fours treat people disdainfully, as if others were nobodies and had no value and significance."
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an aside, I don't know why people, including Riso-Hudson, always type him as a 5. I see a clear 4.


Everyone on the planet instinctively labels Axl a 6 -- including me. I had him pegged for 6. But I think the more you look at his nuances, the way he paints his words and even strings together sentences, it's obvious he isn't an attachment type. There's a number of highly insightful interviews with him transcribed on Here Today Gone to Hell (the only good purpose of the site) if you wanna check it out. He gets obsessed with the idea of who he is, especially after he finds out his father was actually his stepfather and not his biological father. This is what I mean when I say 4s are unaware that they're searching for themselves. Axl literally talks about Holy Origin at certain points while simultaneously maintaining his sense of self and compulsively shooting down interviewers who use the wrong word to describe him.

I really should do a thorough post about him. I've examined him from every angle and 4 is the only one that's really held up for me under close scrutiny.


----------



## Brains

o0india0o said:


> Guys, if I end up back at Type 7, I'm going to feel like such a [email protected] :laughing:
> 
> Well this was a dramatic little journey. Like paddling a canoe in a circle ...
> 
> Over a waterfall.
> 
> I have learned a lot more about Enneagram and the different types on this journey (so there is that). & I learned more about Type 4, an aspect of my tritype. I also swapped out my gut-fix 1w2 for a 9w1. So, I guess it hasn't all been a waste;; I am learning a lot. :smile-new:


Just catching up on the logs (and judging by the profile on the left, congrats feeling like such a dumbass ), but you should never feel bad about keeping an open mind or about being willing to say "I was wrong". The worst case scenario is you'll feel silly for a bit and understand stuff better than you used to, as seems to be the case thus far. 

I'm pretty damn certain of my typing, for example, but I still take every reasonable case people bring up just on the off chance they actually have some genuine insight I've missed. I'll waste a bit of time, but ultimately I'll just end up the better for it. This is the kind of system where "I know myself better than anyone else" doesn't really apply fully - you really need both your own and others' perspectives to get a good picture because the system deals partly in things you're blind to about yourself, or stuff you really want to deny.

Or, to put it another way: You being convinced you're right is no assurance you actually are. It just says "I will never budge" and leaves it at that.


----------



## Brains

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> It did. It just eliminated the last bit of cognitive dissonance that has had me claiming type 5 for a long time instead of type 4, the one thing that always hitches me up. This concept of Envy. But when considering it as rejection of 1...yah that helps. So does thinking of it as what is essentially rejection of Envy...."I don't really want that thing since I can't have it anyway, so what's the point?" Makes more sense than Avarice, which also never made sense.
> 
> ...Enneagram typing has been rough for me. Only conclusive things I can find is Withdrawn and probably Reactive. And probably an 8 fix for my gut, though others claim it must be 9 . Definitely a Truth Teller, but not a 6.
> 
> Never mind what my type code says right now, I'm messing with people by randomizing all my types and observing their reactions.


One thing I find with 4 vs. 5 is that both are overthinking types, but Fives overthink about systems or are immensely bothered by the lack of "cleanness" in the nature of our knowledge of some things and so on - they're dissatisfied with the banal part of reality and the machinery under it all is more real and meaningful than the buddhist adage of "if you're hungry, eat. If you're tired, sleep. Need to relieve yourself, go take a shit" and so on.

With Fours, there is a similar kind of dissatisfaction: They respond by building out elaborate symbols out of their sentiments and putting them on display. Those sentimental symbols of "realer" reality are subject to a similar degree of pointless, counterproductive overthinking that Fives can succumb to: The challenge is to find a balance between that finding something meaningful and actually engaging and living life instead of rejecting everything for the internal.


----------



## Recede

I'm wondering if it's reasonable to type strictly by motivations, even when none of the typical traits and behaviors fit. Anyways, I'm trying on 7.

I always knew these were my motivations but assumed only a certain version of them could be considered type 7. Sevens are described as wanting a little bit of everything and not focusing deeply enough on any one thing. I'm the opposite, I tend to focus deeply on one thing at the expense of variety because I feel that if I tried something else it would take away my time from whatever thing I most want to do. But that's still a fear of missing out and not having enough. I'm also not really into feelings like joy and enthusiasm, I'm not looking for that version of happiness, I'm looking for freedom, to spend more time doing things I want and less time doing things I don't want to do.


----------



## Brains

Recede said:


> I'm wondering if it's reasonable to type strictly by motivations, even when none of the typical traits and behaviors fit. Anyways, I'm trying on 7.
> 
> I always knew these were my motivations but assumed only a certain version of them could be considered type 7. Sevens are described as wanting a little bit of everything and not focusing deeply enough on any one thing. I'm the opposite, I tend to focus deeply on one thing at the expense of variety because I feel that if I tried something else it would take away my time from whatever thing I most want to do. But that's still a fear of missing out and not having enough. I'm also not really into feelings like joy and enthusiasm, I'm not looking for that version of happiness, I'm looking for freedom, to spend more time doing things I want and less time doing things I don't want to do.


I'd be verrryyy iffy about that. These types are attempts at pretty broad descriptions of our character, and there is no way that character doesn't show through over the course of your life - it comes in how you interact with others, little silly things that you happen to do in your life that just make you laugh or shake your head in retrospect, somewhat in the kinds of stances and opinions you hold, and the list goes on and on and on.

Now, your self-image _could_ be hilariously screwed up - I used to think I was an introvert socially in many ways because you wouldn't see me on the dance floor, all the while hilariously completely missing twenty years of uninhibitedly talking to strangers to the point friends asked where I knew some friend I made that same day from, aggressive touchy-feeliness and so on. There's just some things you have to trust others to correct you on.


----------



## Recede

Brains said:


> I'd be verrryyy iffy about that. These types are attempts at pretty broad descriptions of our character, and there is no way that character doesn't show through over the course of your life - it comes in how you interact with others, little silly things that you happen to do in your life that just make you laugh or shake your head in retrospect, somewhat in the kinds of stances and opinions you hold, and the list goes on and on and on.
> 
> Now, your self-image _could_ be hilariously screwed up - I used to think I was an introvert socially in many ways because you wouldn't see me on the dance floor, all the while hilariously completely missing twenty years of uninhibitedly talking to strangers to the point friends asked where I knew some friend I made that same day from, aggressive touchy-feeliness and so on. There's just some things you have to trust others to correct you on.


What if I were completely certain that these are my most significant motivations, and that none of the other types' motivations have any real relevance to my life? Would it still be better to go with another type that better fits my traits and behaviors?


----------



## Animal

Based on motivations alone I would be an 8.


----------



## Brains

Animal said:


> Based on motivations alone I would be an 8.


We all know Bearlin was right


----------



## Animal

Brains said:


> We all know Bearlin was right


:ninja:


----------



## Animal

Recede said:


> What if I were completely certain that these are my most significant motivations, and that none of the other types' motivations have any real relevance to my life? Would it still be better to go with another type that better fits my traits and behaviors?


 Motivation doesn't exist in a vacuum. What we think our motivations are - may be genuine and have tremendous merit. But, behaviors spawn from unconscious motivations that are so automatic to us, we don't even realize they are there. That's why enneagram incorporates motivations AND behaviors - including body language cues. People who say "visual typing has no basis" are missing the whole point. Body language constitutes 80-90% of communication according to any renowned system or testing in any field of psychology. This is easy to google. Enneagram is classified as 'pop psych' but it is still about psychology and how we enact our inner motivations that we aren't aware of. No matter how self-aware we are, part of self-awareness is admitting that there's this mechanism called "The Unconscious" which is exactly what it sounds like.* Un*conscious. 

The point of enneagram is to lift the veil.. to recognize our automatic behaviors and where they stem from. Not to 'fix them,' per se, since enneagram types are defense sets and we need defenses to survive. But to be aware, so that our automatic set of defenses is not causing us to act in ways that serve to undermine our best interest or hurt the people we love.

The reason behaviors matter, is they do stem from motivations that we _don't realize we have_. My 6 and 8 behaviors and motivations make a lot of sense to me, and they are genuine, and continuous throughout my life, and I can prove it with art, diaries, my own music, videos, pictures, themes that repeat, etc. The same is true of 4, but it is so pervasive and automatic for me that I don't even notice it, and when people have confronted me on aspects of it, I think "Well of course I do that, it makes SENSE to do that." Even if I also hate myself for it or whatever. Its automatic, and that's why stepping back and looking at it more objectively, via enneagram, and listening to others who tell me how it manifests in my actions, art, words, body language, and automatic presumptions; has helped me to grow and become increasingly _truly_ self aware. Not just aware of how I feel and why I do what I do; but aware of where I fit in the grand scheme of things, why my presumptions differ from others, where they are coming from, what I was doing so automatically that I didn't realize it, etc.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Animal said:


> Motivation doesn't exist in a vacuum. What we think our motivations are - may be genuine and have tremendous merit. *But, behaviors spawn from unconscious motivations that are so automatic to us, we don't even realize they are there.*


What Animal said here, @Recede.

A decent example, I believe. I consciously believe in living life to the fullest. Yet, for some reason, I struggle with self-esteem issues. I shoot down my own ideas, because they "aren't good enough". I refuse to share my insights with others even when they ask for them, because "I'm not REALLY sure they are right." I stop working on a project because "someone else already did it." And so on and so on. I don't think about these things, I just do them. It took a friend pointedly saying to me "I don't know why you are so down on all your ideas, you have great intuition and amazing insight" for me to realize that I am really so harsh on myself. And by contrast, I am much more accepting of the ideas of others. I used to think I was a 1 because of this, but in the end it boils down to an overall lack of weighing and judging and rationalizing of others. I don't seek perfection for perfections sake, I seek perfection because why bother if I can't do something worthwhile I can be proud of? I reject being second best and I reject being unimportant, so I try too hard and then when I fail, I reject having cared in the first place. Ultimately, I reject my own place in things and my own wants and needs by refusing to participate.

So, motivationally speaking, I'd be more like a 1 with this drive to excel, or like an 8 with my secrecy and strong desire to be totally self sufficient and in control. But that isn't how I actually express or what the unconscious parts of my mind do.

Listen to Animal. Great advice comes from there, except when it doesn't. 


....that's all you peeps get. I've said too much already.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Yeah... I often feel like 7ish motivations is closest to what I really want or care about, and yet I have something holding me back from pursuing those things. I'm too weighted down by myself to fly away to the life I want, because other fears get in the way, etc.

(And that's all _I_ will say about that. roud


----------



## Shadow Tag

Also, to throw my shit into the wind:

Some motivations seem to exist in some way to many types. For example, it seems very easy for cheerful, fun people to relate to 7ish motivations, and more melancholic people to relate to 4. But it's mostly superficial. 

Motivations surpass our human logic. Enneagram tells us why we're flawed. If we don't embody those motivations with our behavior in sometimes self-defeating ways, we aren't that type.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Ivy said:


> Some motivations seem to exist in some way to many types. For example, it seems very easy for cheerful, fun people to relate to 7ish motivations, and more melancholic people to relate to 4. But it's mostly superficial.


FWIW though, I can be pretty melancholic or moody, but don't really relate to 4's motivations (though I score highly on the type when I take tests).


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Something that has been bothering me is that I may have been different as a child than as I have been since puberty. My parents tell me I was very well-behaved and other parents were envious of how "easy" of a child I was. I was pretty obedient I guess. But I feel like I become "awake" starting at about age 12. I have never felt emotionally close to my parents and don't have a bond with them in that way, so I guess that may have been one of the reasons I used to be like that...I don't think I cared whether they loved me or not. I just want to be able to tie everything together, but maybe the answer isn't in enneagram, I don't know. 

As for motivations, what I have noticed recently is there's a need to have others SEE the pain I am in and for them to see the image I am projecting, no matter what. I behave like this at my unhealthiest, I need them to see me a certain way. And also I have this hunger to get to the vulnerable, sensitive core of the issue even if it feels like it's breaking me from the inside and I cannot make sense of things, or hold things together in my head because I feel traumatized.


----------



## Brains

To add to the above by @Ivy, when you're doing typology it's almost always best to concentrate on the _how_ more than on the _what_. Typology forums are full of threads like _"Can ESTJs do this?"_, _"But I can't be an F type, I think about stuff"_, @o0india0o 's struggles with darkness, and so on. How, how, how.

Care about competency? Yup, One, Three or Five. Not an Eight with a need to prevail or Six wanting to attain confidence, or a Four developing an obsession of theirs. Could be shades of Oneishness in a core Two, even. The _flavour_ of the what is often just as, if not more important to finding a good typing than the thing itself, if spoken of dryly.

On Sixes and authority, I find it much better to talk of _external anchors to attach to_ when it comes to the type rather than submitting to authority. Solid ground they can stand on amid chaos. They also often show a lot of concern for how they come across, and I've mistyped a couple Sixes as image types at first for that reason. But it's again the style, not the checking, per se. A Three, for example, would be distressed if others thought he was a loser. A success? Now we're talking. Someone down in the dumps but clearly has potential and is working at it? Ouch, but I guess I'll take it and show them. The Six, though? It wasn't about coming off a certain way, but checking to see _that she was OK._ Okay in the sense that other people _were okay with her._ Again, searching for the rock to wedge the anchor in.


----------



## Recede

Animal said:


> Motivation doesn't exist in a vacuum. What we think our motivations are - may be genuine and have tremendous merit. But, behaviors spawn from unconscious motivations that are so automatic to us, we don't even realize they are there. That's why enneagram incorporates motivations AND behaviors - including body language cues. People who say "visual typing has no basis" are missing the whole point. Body language constitutes 80-90% of communication according to any renowned system or testing in any field of psychology. This is easy to google. Enneagram is classified as 'pop psych' but it is still about psychology and how we enact our inner motivations that we aren't aware of. No matter how self-aware we are, part of self-awareness is admitting that there's this mechanism called "The Unconscious" which is exactly what it sounds like.* Un*conscious.
> 
> The point of enneagram is to lift the veil.. to recognize our automatic behaviors and where they stem from. Not to 'fix them,' per se, since enneagram types are defense sets and we need defenses to survive. But to be aware, so that our automatic set of defenses is not causing us to act in ways that serve to undermine our best interest or hurt the people we love.
> 
> The reason behaviors matter, is they do stem from motivations that we _don't realize we have_. My 6 and 8 behaviors and motivations make a lot of sense to me, and they are genuine, and continuous throughout my life, and I can prove it with art, diaries, my own music, videos, pictures, themes that repeat, etc. The same is true of 4, but it is so pervasive and automatic for me that I don't even notice it, and when people have confronted me on aspects of it, I think "Well of course I do that, it makes SENSE to do that." Even if I also hate myself for it or whatever. Its automatic, and that's why stepping back and looking at it more objectively, via enneagram, and listening to others who tell me how it manifests in my actions, art, words, body language, and automatic presumptions; has helped me to grow and become increasingly _truly_ self aware. Not just aware of how I feel and why I do what I do; but aware of where I fit in the grand scheme of things, why my presumptions differ from others, where they are coming from, what I was doing so automatically that I didn't realize it, etc.


My 7 motivations _do _impact my behaviors, though. Very significantly. The fears of being trapped and in pain or of not having enough time to do what I want are responsible for every major issue I've ever had. They just don't result in me being an extroverted, bubbly, enthusiastic person who wants to do everything. Instead, they result in zoning out, daydreaming, distraction, doing things to excess, hoarding free time, avoiding obligations and commitments, avoiding social interaction (because it is boring and takes away my freedom), and planning my career and life around these motivations, etc. The only other possible types are 5 and 9, but when I examine the need for freedom more closely, it's 7. For example I'm basically not interested in understanding the world, I just want to have as much free time as possible because I never feel that I have enough freedom to be content.

I don't believe enneagram can really lift a veil in the sense of telling us who we are and what our true motivations are. I think it's the other way around, we can't know our type until we lift the veil ourselves and identify our motivations. The most usefulness I've found in enneagram was using it as a starting point or vehicle for exploration. It is not a map of who I am and how I work. It is a set of ideas and theories that can trigger exploration and ideas of my own, leading to greater self-awareness. 

Motivations are often unconscious, but that shouldn't mean we should simply type by traits and behaviors and assume the motivations are there outside of awareness. Traits and behaviors are not enough to type yourself by, this is what all enneagram authors say. You have to know what motivates your behaviors in order to determine which type you are, so the motivations of your type can't be so unconscious as to be unrecognizable. I think what's probably common is to be partially aware of the motivations, but not necessarily realize the full extent of how much they impact your life and behaviors until you really take time to analyze.


----------



## Animal

Recede said:


> My 7 motivations _do _impact my behaviors, though. Very significantly. The fears of being trapped and in pain or of not having enough time to do what I want are responsible for every major issue I've ever had. They just don't result in me being an extroverted, bubbly, enthusiastic person who wants to do everything. Instead, they result in zoning out, daydreaming, distraction, doing things to excess, hoarding free time, avoiding obligations and commitments, avoiding social interaction (because it is boring and takes away my freedom), and planning my career and life around these motivations, etc. The only other possible types are 5 and 9, but when I examine the need for freedom more closely, it's 7. For example I'm basically not interested in understanding the world, I just want to have as much free time as possible because I never feel that I have enough freedom to be content.


7s want more and more and more experience, more and more and more - thats gluttony. Wanting to have control of your own time is Sp (because it's about controlling your own resources) and hoarding is also Sp. Daydreaming/distraction applies to a lot of types, but it is most commonly associated with 9, whose 'sloth' pertains to going with what's easy and ignoring the things they don't want to face, which creates a kind of inner 'cloud' obscuring what hurts the most. Lots of 9s mistype at 7 for this reason.

I'm not saying you aren't a 7 or that you are a 9 - it's up to you to figure out your type. But the theory you are sharing here is simply inaccurate for the deeper meanings of the types. This is why, what you consider a motivation for 'freedom' does not line up with 7s' actions. 7s motivation is to avoid *stagnation* so they are looking for things to constantly change. Whereas 9s motivation is to avoid *loss* - and loss of self is a huge one, and commitments on their time and others pulling them in many directions is a threat to them, which is why they 'pull out of' a lot of things and retreat to their own inner world (withdrawn type). 7s get wrapped up in a lot of activity or outside things because it's about gluttony and taking things in, _escaping_ the inner world. Both types are escapists, but 9s do it by daydreaming (sloth) and 7s do it by acquisition (gluttony).



> I don't believe enneagram can really lift a veil in the sense of telling us who we are and what our true motivations are. I think it's the other way around, we can't know our type until we lift the veil ourselves and identify our motivations. The most usefulness I've found in enneagram was using it as a starting point or vehicle for exploration. It is not a map of who I am and how I work. It is a set of ideas and theories that can trigger exploration and ideas of my own, leading to greater self-awareness.


Sure - this is why I found my correct type once I had enough schooling in enneagram and a feel for what the types really mean; because I had done a lot of exploration on my own. When I first encountered enneagram at 21, I read a few books but part of me knew I needed to live more before I ws ready for this, so I abandoned it. The best advice I could give anyone that is confused about their type, is to go out in the world and live their life, and keep a diary, or make collages, or photos, or some record of what goes through your head; but don't think about what type it fits if you can help it, just get away from enneagram and be you. So in that sense I agree, but with people who are constantly on the forum changing types every 2 months, that's the opposite of what they're doing.



> Motivations are often unconscious, but that shouldn't mean we should simply type by traits and behaviors and assume the motivations are there outside of awareness. Traits and behaviors are not enough to type yourself by, this is what all enneagram authors say. You have to know what motivates your behaviors in order to determine which type you are, so the motivations of your type can't be so unconscious as to be unrecognizable. I think what's probably common is to be partially aware of the motivations, but not necessarily realize the full extent of how much they impact your life and behaviors until you really take time to analyze.


Nobody is suggesting you should forget about motivations. Once the whole picture falls into place, it is clear that it's touching on the motivations that are so pervasive, and it is clear why that fuels someone's life.


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## star tripper

Strictly by motivation, indeed I'd be a 7w8. HUGE fear of missing out, fierce passion for accumulation, impulse to taste the beauty and the pain of life, and intense desire to baptize myself in all the wonderful and awful things that comprise the human experience. It bleeds into my personality in that I constantly make plans and can be rather flighty when I start losing my grip.

But I think while your motivation lines up with an enneagram, you might EXPRESS it in the language of your true core. Because I think your core should largely be your unconscious motivation. There shouldn't be a lot of natural awareness in that realm because it's your norm. It's automatic.


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## Recede

Animal said:


> 7s want more and more and more experience, more and more and more - thats gluttony. Wanting to have control of your own time is Sp (because it's about controlling your own resources) and hoarding is also Sp. Daydreaming/distraction applies to a lot of types, but it is most commonly associated with 9, whose 'sloth' pertains to going with what's easy and ignoring the things they don't want to face, which creates a kind of inner 'cloud' obscuring what hurts the most. Lots of 9s mistype at 7 for this reason.


The ego-fixation of type 9 is not literal daydreaming, it refers to a quality of falling asleep to one's own development. You can't look at daydreaming and say it's this or that type, it all depends on the motivation behind it. 



> I'm not saying you aren't a 7 or that you are a 9 - it's up to you to figure out your type. But the theory you are sharing here is simply inaccurate for the deeper meanings of the types.


I don't believe I've said anything inaccurate. Could you please indicate what specifically I said that you think is inaccurate? 



> This is why, what you consider a motivation for 'freedom' does not line up with 7s' actions. 7s motivation is to avoid *stagnation* so they are looking for things to constantly change.


The 7s motivation is to avoid deprivation and to have enough of what makes them fulfilled. They are typically described as seeking variety, a little bit of everything. It's debatable whether the motivation must always manifest in that specific way.



> Whereas 9s motivation is to avoid *loss* - and loss of self is a huge one, and commitments on their time and others pulling them in many directions is a threat to them, which is why they 'pull out of' a lot of things and retreat to their own inner world (withdrawn type).


The 9s motivations as described in the books have to do with the need for harmony, to accommodate other people and viewpoints, and to have inner peace. Tuning out for 9s has to do with idealizing reality, not wanting to see the disturbing or unpleasant parts of it, which allows them to stay in harmony with their environment and avoid separation (loss). It isn't the same as daydreaming and not paying attention in order to escape a boring situation because you feel you need life to be fun or enjoyable at all times. My motivations have nothing to do with harmony.



> Sure - this is why I found my correct type once I had enough schooling in enneagram and a feel for what the types really mean; because I had done a lot of exploration on my own. When I first encountered enneagram at 21, I read a few books but part of me knew I needed to live more before I ws ready for this, so I abandoned it. The best advice I could give anyone that is confused about their type, is to go out in the world and live their life, and keep a diary, or make collages, or photos, or some record of what goes through your head; but don't think about what type it fits if you can help it, just get away from enneagram and be you. So in that sense I agree, but with people who are constantly on the forum changing types every 2 months, that's the opposite of what they're doing.


Good advice and that's exactly what I did. I've been away from the forum for months, I find I learn more about myself that way. Collages are good, another useful one is dreams.


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## Animal

Recede said:


> The ego-fixation of type 9 is not literal daydreaming, it refers to a quality of falling asleep to one's own development. You can't look at daydreaming and say it's this or that type, it all depends on the motivation behind it.


I said the same thing, did I not? That it could apply to a lot of types. I just thought the way you described it specifically sounded more like 9 than 7, although I'm not presuming to know your type.



> I don't believe I've said anything inaccurate. Could you please indicate what specifically I said that you think is inaccurate?


The way you described 7 motivations, which I already explained. It's not about wanting to protect your time so that you're free. Some 7s can actually be afraid of free time because it's stagnation which gets them trapped in their own mind. You left out the 'gluttony' part in your description, which is essential to the meaning of 'freedom.' 



> The 7s motivation is to avoid deprivation and to have enough of what makes them fulfilled. They are typically described as seeking variety, a little bit of everything. It's debatable whether the motivation must always manifest in that specific way.


Deprivation in terms of 'not having enough resources' (including free time) is Sp. 7s fear is being deprived of _stimulation_ which would force them to be locked inside their own pain. That's why it's a head type - it's about being stimulated mentally, which allows them a reason not to be bored ie. stagnant and stuck inside their own mind, which would inevitably lead to facing pain and (what they fear is) being trapped in it.




> The 9s motivations as described in the books have to do with the need for harmony, to accommodate other people and viewpoints, and to have inner peace. Tuning out for 9s has to do with idealizing reality, not wanting to see the disturbing or unpleasant parts of it, which allows them to stay in harmony with their environment and avoid separation (loss). It isn't the same as daydreaming and not paying attention in order to escape a boring situation because you feel you need life to be fun or enjoyable at all times. My motivations have nothing to do with harmony.


A discussion of 9 motivations would take me a bit of time that I don't have right now, but I'll get back to it.




> Good advice and that's exactly what I did. I've been away from the forum for months, I find I learn more about myself that way. Collages are good, another useful one is dreams.


Cool, I agree with all of that.


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## Daeva

Some math lol

Positive Type + Aggressive Type = ??
Positive Type + Withdrawn Type = ??


And from henceforth, the motivation shall be set in stone.


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## Recede

Animal said:


> I said the same thing, did I not? That it could apply to a lot of types. I just thought the way you described it specifically sounded more like 9 than 7, although I'm not presuming to know your type.


Except I didn't describe how or why I daydream, I simply mentioned it.



> The way you described 7 motivations, which I already explained. It's not about wanting to protect your time so that you're free. Some 7s can actually be afraid of free time because it's stagnation which gets them trapped in their own mind. You left out the 'gluttony' part in your description, which is essential to the meaning of 'freedom.'


That's how I described _my _motivations. And actually there probably is gluttony there. My need for freedom translates into two fundamental fears: that I will not have enough time to do what I want and that I will have to spend too much time doing things I don't want to do. Freedom isn't simply about having independence or autonomy, and it's not about resources, freedom for me is being able to spend hours and hours immersing myself in whatever activity I want to do. The actual description of gluttony says that it's about filling an inner emptiness with exciting experiences, and believing that all good and desirable things exist outside the self in the world, and that one needs to get those things. That's actually been very accurate for me throughout my life. I am constantly trying to find things to do that will be fulfilling and serve as distractions. If I could just find that one perfect activity that provides a lasting source of enjoyment and novelty, then I'd be happy and fulfilled.



> Deprivation in terms of 'not having enough resources' (including free time) is Sp. 7s fear is being deprived of _stimulation_ which would force them to be locked inside their own pain. That's why it's a head type - it's about being stimulated mentally, which allows them a reason not to be bored ie. stagnant and stuck inside their own mind, which would inevitably lead to facing pain and (what they fear is) being trapped in it.


Actually I do seek constant mental stimulation. I tend to see myself as someone who _is _stagnant, who spends a lot of time doing nothing, but that's actually not true. My mind is so constantly active that I easily get burnt out and exhausted from it. When it comes to actual stillness, things like relaxation and meditation, that's very hard for me because I don't want to stop moving or else my anxiety might catch up with me. Often when I try to relax I end up more anxious. So maybe I actually do have this fear of stagnation.


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## Cataclysm

Rose for a Heart said:


> Something that has been bothering me is that I may have been different as a child than as I have been since puberty. My parents tell me I was very well-behaved and other parents were envious of how "easy" of a child I was. I was pretty obedient I guess. But I feel like I become "awake" starting at about age 12. I have never felt emotionally close to my parents and don't have a bond with them in that way, so I guess that may have been one of the reasons I used to be like that...I don't think I cared whether they loved me or not. I just want to be able to tie everything together, but maybe the answer isn't in enneagram, I don't know.
> 
> As for motivations, what I have noticed recently is there's a need to have others SEE the pain I am in and for them to see the image I am projecting, no matter what. I behave like this at my unhealthiest, I need them to see me a certain way. And also I have this hunger to get to the vulnerable, sensitive core of the issue even if it feels like it's breaking me from the inside and I cannot make sense of things, or hold things together in my head because I feel traumatized.


I was also very different as a kid from when I grew up but isn't that part of your type though, whatever the type? You have to be vulnerable in order to adapt your enneagram defenses. You're naturally vulnerable as a kid so that's when you start building.


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## Cataclysm

I have a hard time differentiating between what traits belong to which category of the model. So for instance I might notice some 5 behaviors but they could very well be attributed to disintegration or it's just being my head fix taking the lead because the gut couldn't. Or some 7 traits but it could just be my wing or it's my head fix again. So is my head fix 7 or 5? At least I've become certain I'm not a 5, I'm just an anxious person.


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## Rose for a Heart

--


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## Brains

star tripper said:


> A question to the floor: when typed correctly, do you have an intense connection with integration/disintegration points?
> 
> I must confess the catalyst for my switching from 7/3 to 5 is this idea of types being composites of their integration/disintegration points, the idea that a 5 is a fallen 8 and that 7 kicks their asses back into action at their weakest point. When I read about this dynamic with regard to other types, it didn't really click the way the 5 dynamic did. It was like I understood the 2-4-1 connection intellectually but the 7-5-8 connection experientially. It wasn't until I understood this particular dynamic that I could see my life's narrative painted in the color of the enneagram.
> 
> I'm always open to my type being challenged. I just wanted to explore the angle upon which I leaned in order to confidently settle on a type.


I think that initially, there may be something. Ultimately, though, a good typing should feel rather unremarkable. At least as far as my own experience goes, whenever we adopt a typing we unconsciously try to live up to the characterization, at least a little, even if we don't mean to (and I mean this happens even in the best practicioners, not talking about low effort whatevers whose whole purpose in doing typology is to adopt an identity to draw character and a sense of identity from). So when we adopt an identity that's not quite us, we should feel those external parts - protursions, if you will - pretty clearly. Like, say, being 9-ish instead of 7-ish for a wrong wing on an 8, that fix that just ain't right, the core typing you insist you are, and so on. The closer a typing in any system has been to being "correct", in my experience, the more it has just felt like nothing at all because there's just less external stuff to account for.

This is for type when understood well - misunderstanding a type can make a correct typing feel alien because you're trying to live up to a construct that doesn't describe you, even if a different, actually accurate construct that describes real people has the same name and describes you better.


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## star tripper

Brains said:


> I think that initially, there may be something. Ultimately, though, a good typing should feel rather unremarkable. At least as far as my own experience goes, whenever we adopt a typing we unconsciously try to live up to the characterization, at least a little, even if we don't mean to (and I mean this happens even in the best practicioners, not talking about low effort whatevers whose whole purpose in doing typology is to adopt an identity to draw character and a sense of identity from). So when we adopt an identity that's not quite us, we should feel those external parts - protursions, if you will - pretty clearly. Like, say, being 9-ish instead of 7-ish for a wrong wing on an 8, that fix that just ain't right, the core typing you insist you are, and so on. The closer a typing in any system has been to being "correct", in my experience, the more it has just felt like nothing at all because there's just less external stuff to account for.
> 
> This is for type when understood well - misunderstanding a type can make a correct typing feel alien because you're trying to live up to a construct that doesn't describe you, even if a different, actually accurate construct that describes real people has the same name and describes you better.


I agree and disagree. Definitely with you that your type should feel unremarkable because you don't need to live up to anything, but I think once you finally "get" it, it can feel remarkable because you can have a better understanding of the system and that's awesome. Of course, that latter sense of elation is probably not universal lol.


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## Coburn

Not a mistype question, just a question:

For those of you who have seen my posts around here, how would you describe my communication style? How do I come across? Is there anything distinctive or standout about the way I communicate?


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## o0india0o

@Coburn

Yes!

Though, I would have trouble describing it (but I'll give it a try).

Your writing has a distinct flair about it. I experience it as calm, in control, without any tension. There is a sort of cerebral (almost cyborg quality), mixed with a light, easiness. There's also a certain amount of perfection in your writing. Like, the way a good piece of chocolate should taste in one bite; somehow you perfectly package your writing in succinct sentences. There's also a light playfulness, although, playfulness might be a bit too far (maybe dry & wry humor?). There is also a bit of an ethereal quality, but it is very well grounded by the analytical-ness that's also present in your writing.

*shrug* just how I perceive it though. : )


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## d e c a d e n t

@*Coburn*
I would say you come across as dry and distant. Think I agree with the perfection-thing, like you do give off a "competent" vibe.

(Damn, now I'm curious how I come across, though I tend to assume my awkward English overwhelms anything else.)

Edit: And yeah, the avatar probably helps. I like the avatar lol.


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## Brains

Would agree with dry, distant, a bit perfectionist. The avatar probably contributes a ton to that perception, though.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Coburn said:


> Not a mistype question, just a question:
> 
> For those of you who have seen my posts around here, how would you describe my communication style? How do I come across? Is there anything distinctive or standout about the way I communicate?


Your writing comes across as consistent and level headed. Maybe a touch anxious, but hidden down a layer or two. It's like you are hiding something behind a facade of some kind. A cool and collected front over turbulence and an elemental...pushiness? I can't think of a word, its like you are pressing out onto your audience, inspiring them to respond somehow. Like they wouldn't respond, but you present yourself in a way that challenges them to. It comes across as a need for impact that itself comes across as the aforementioned inner turbulence.

Your writing also comes across as you would expect from someone who looks and acts the way your avatar picture appears. That is, your avatar picture looks down and touches the glasses in a detached and analytical way with a hint of nervousness and uncertainty and a desire to learn. It's like he doesn't know what he is looking at, but wants to learn. And look at the intensity in the eyes in it, like two coals burning low in a half-dead fireplace. The fire is there, you can FEEL it, but it doesn't really BURN you. You come across the same way. I think your avatar pic is quite well chosen.


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## Rose for a Heart

--


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## drmiller100

@Coburn I believe 8w9, with STRONG communication ties to 5. 

You come across as pretty unemotional, and factual. However, you WILL disagree and state your opinion if you think it helpful.

I'd also say you are "nicer" than you were a few years ago, at least that is how my memory says. My memory says you used to be more abrasive.


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## Coburn

o0india0o said:


> @Coburn
> 
> Yes!
> 
> Though, I would have trouble describing it (but I'll give it a try).
> 
> Your writing has a distinct flair about it. I experience it as calm, in control, without any tension. There is a sort of cerebral (almost cyborg quality), mixed with a light, easiness. There's also a certain amount of perfection in your writing. Like, the way a good piece of chocolate should taste in one bite; somehow you perfectly package your writing in succinct sentences. There's also a light playfulness, although, playfulness might be a bit too far (maybe dry & wry humor?). There is also a bit of an ethereal quality, but it is very well grounded by the analytical-ness that's also present in your writing.
> 
> *shrug* just how I perceive it though. : )


Thank you! I'm always happy to be compared with a good piece of chocolate (and I mean that in earnestness).

It's interesting you mention it has a cyborg quality. Someone else mentioned awhile back I tend to write in very robotic fashion. I suppose that's the byproduct of being dry (in humor) and controlled in the way I write.

It's interesting, I wonder if my writing gives a much stronger competency type vibe than a gut one.

I appreciate the feedback. It helps me get a better idea of how I come across on this forum.



Distortions said:


> @*Coburn*
> I would say you come across as dry and distant. Think I agree with the perfection-thing, like you do give off a "competent" vibe.
> 
> (Damn, now I'm curious how I come across, though I tend to assume my awkward English overwhelms anything else.)
> 
> Edit: And yeah, the avatar probably helps. I like the avatar lol.


Ah, okay. That sort of answers my question to o0india0o: if I come off more as a competent triad type via my writing style.

Hmm, seems like dry, removed/distant, and controlled (perfectionistic) are common factors in my writing style. Funny how none of those are really eightish qualities.

And good point, the avatar probably reinforces that tone.

As to your writing...I haven't read much of what you've posted, but you come off as sensible and accessible. Someone who is open to dialogue and isn't as set on pushing their presence onto others. Less forceful, but ultimately more accessible and comfortable to approach. Also, casual. You come off as casual.

Thanks for your insight!


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## Coburn

Brains said:


> Would agree with dry, distant, a bit perfectionist. The avatar probably contributes a ton to that perception, though.


Haha, okay, there are definitely some key tonal themes here. And I agree, I think maybe my avatar is contributing more to that image than I realized.

It is a good picture, though.

As a side thought, does any of it strikes you as particularly against the eight type? Or is it not really relevant?



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Your writing comes across as consistent and level headed. Maybe a touch anxious, but hidden down a layer or two. It's like you are hiding something behind a facade of some kind. A cool and collected front over turbulence and an elemental...pushiness? I can't think of a word, its like you are pressing out onto your audience, inspiring them to respond somehow. Like they wouldn't respond, but you present yourself in a way that challenges them to. It comes across as a need for impact that itself comes across as the aforementioned inner turbulence.


Are the anxiousness and inner turbulence different? If so, could you tell me what you would say the anxious aspect is directed towards? Does it feel inward oriented (perhaps anxious about some aspect of myself) or outward oriented (anxious about something​ external such as how I am received or interpreted)?

Or maybe perhaps it's that need for impact that drives the underlying anxiousness you are picking up.

After reading other responses, I think consistent is definitely accurate. I seem to give the same impression across the board (for the most part). I suppose it means I don't leave a lot of room for personal interpretation in my writing.



> Your writing also comes across as you would expect from someone who looks and acts the way your avatar picture appears. That is, your avatar picture looks down and touches the glasses in a detached and analytical way with a hint of nervousness and uncertainty and a desire to learn. It's like he doesn't know what he is looking at, but wants to learn. And look at the intensity in the eyes in it, like two coals burning low in a half-dead fireplace. The fire is there, you can FEEL it, but it doesn't really BURN you. You come across the same way. I think your avatar pic is quite well chosen.


Haha, I like my avatar as well. I do think it's fairly fitting, even moreso now that it seems to well represent my writing style.

It is interesting you mention that there is a flame but no burn. I've described other people in my life that way, but never myself. I wonder if it's an sp-dom thing. Maybe the sx-last aspect affects the intensity (or lack of it) in my communication style.

Thank you for the feedback. It's good to hear.


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## Coburn

@Distortions and @Brains

Quick side thought: what does distant mean in this context? More emotionally removed from the subjects I'm commenting on? More emotionally removed from my own reactions?

Perhaps it's not possible to tell via writing, but I'm wondering what specifically I seem removed/detached from (myself, others, etc).


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## Coburn

drmiller100 said:


> @Coburn I believe 8w9, with STRONG communication ties to 5.
> 
> You come across as pretty unemotional, and factual. However, you WILL disagree and state your opinion if you think it helpful.
> 
> I'd also say you are "nicer" than you were a few years ago, at least that is how my memory says. My memory says you used to be more abrasive.


I've definitely sort of settled into a calmer frame of mind on here. I was more aggressive awhile back (although never so aggressive as some). But there are still occasions where the right combination of factors will make me explode.

I forgot how long you'd been on here. Time + observation always helps add perspective. Do you feel your writing style has changed at all? Or have you always been consistent?

And yes, agreed that there are some very strong ties to five in my behavior and writing. I am glad to hear I come across as someone who will state my case when I think helpful. That's ideal for me.

Thank you.


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## d e c a d e n t

@*Rose for a Heart*
Not really sure how to describe it, but sort of... tense/careful, I suppose?

@*Coburn*
Lol, casual makes sense. I feel like my English is very awkward like I said, since it's not my first language so I worry about sounding very stilted and unnatural. So I try to "compensate" by talking in a more casual way. (Although I'm probably casual in general, as I don't deal well with too much formality.)

As for what you seem removed from, hm. I guess you don't seem like the most approachable person.


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## Coburn

@Distortions

Ah, good point. To be honest, I wasn't aware English was your second language from your writing. You don't give it away. 

You write the way someone might talk with someone they have a familiarity with (friend, good colleague), hence the casual feeling.

And that's a bit surprising to hear, that I don't seem like the most approachable person. I suppose it makes sense with my writing, although it's very at odds with my personality. I will have to try and work at that, as I would like to be more approachable. I really appreciate you telling me.


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## Coburn

Rose for a Heart said:


> --


I don't think I've read enough of your posts to give a clear answer to your question, unfortunately. Wish I could be of more help.


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## Gorgon

Damn now I'm curious how I come across. As for my type, I'm set on my core and heart fix. Head fix has been a bit hazy, but 7 seems right.


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## drmiller100

Coburn said:


> I've definitely sort of settled into a calmer frame of mind on here. I was more aggressive awhile back (although never so aggressive as some). But there are still occasions where the right combination of factors will make me explode.
> 
> I forgot how long you'd been on here. Time + observation always helps add perspective. Do you feel your writing style has changed at all? Or have you always been consistent?
> 
> And yes, agreed that there are some very strong ties to five in my behavior and writing. I am glad to hear I come across as someone who will state my case when I think helpful. That's ideal for me.
> 
> Thank you.


Smiles. I have changed. mellowed. My life has changed significantly. I looked back a bit ago and realized I had earned about one infraction/warning per year since I have been here. I can be an absolute vicious dick when I want to - product of being the son of a brilliant lawyer who taught me to use words. 

I think my writing comes across very 5 as well. you are less likely to rise to bait than me. I'll cook off pretty quickly. You are slower to burn.

FWIW, I'm 8w7, Sx/Sx. My hobbies include setting off avalanches, racing cars, sex with multiple women, BDSM as a Dom, and exploring teh backcountry of Idaho on my motorcycles. I've been a consultant, programmer, landscaper, bum, professor, program chair for university, and a bunch of analyst jobs.

But I don't think most people think of that when they read my posts.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Reina said:


> Damn now I'm curious how I come across. As for my type, I'm set on my core and heart fix. Head fix has been a bit hazy, but 7 seems right.


You come across as sure and confident of yourself


----------



## Coburn

drmiller100 said:


> Smiles. I have changed. mellowed. My life has changed significantly. I looked back a bit ago and realized I had earned about one infraction/warning per year since I have been here. I can be an absolute vicious dick when I want to - product of being the son of a brilliant lawyer who taught me to use words.


One infraction per year is hardly a sign of viciousness. If anything, I'd say it's tamer than I expected of you.



> I think my writing comes across very 5 as well. you are less likely to rise to bait than me. I'll cook off pretty quickly. You are slower to burn.


Probably true. It's interesting though...I'm not sure you come off as five, to me. You appear much more grounded and "solid" in your style. If anything, I think your writing is nicely indicative of a reactive type. Also, the need to push strikes me as very un-five. You do a lot of pushing in your text. 



> FWIW, I'm 8w7, Sx/Sx. My hobbies include setting off avalanches, racing cars, sex with multiple women, BDSM as a Dom, and exploring teh backcountry of Idaho on my motorcycles. I've been a consultant, programmer, landscaper, bum, professor, program chair for university, and a bunch of analyst jobs.
> 
> But I don't think most people think of that when they read my posts.


No, definitely not. I can't imagine someone like that taking pleasure or interest in an online forum full of strangers discussing theoretical personality models. I take it here is where you express your more five-ish side?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Reina said:


> Damn now I'm curious how I come across. As for my type, I'm set on my core and heart fix. Head fix has been a bit hazy, but 7 seems right.


I would say I get a "larger than life"-impression from your posts.

@*Coburn*
Lol, I might also be extra sensitive to that kind of thing, as I'm naturally very "going towards" and probably more open than most people are tbh. Like when I think about it, I also... grew up in a casual environment, but still.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Coburn said:


> Haha, okay, there are definitely some key tonal themes here. And I agree, I think maybe my avatar is contributing more to that image than I realized.
> 
> It is a good picture, though.
> 
> As a side thought, does any of it strikes you as particularly against the eight type? Or is it not really relevant?
> 
> 
> 
> Are the anxiousness and inner turbulence different? If so, could you tell me what you would say the anxious aspect is directed towards? Does it feel inward oriented (perhaps anxious about some aspect of myself) or outward oriented (anxious about something​ external such as how I am received or interpreted)?
> 
> Or maybe perhaps it's that need for impact that drives the underlying anxiousness you are picking up.
> 
> After reading other responses, I think consistent is definitely accurate. I seem to give the same impression across the board (for the most part). I suppose it means I don't leave a lot of room for personal interpretation in my writing.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, I like my avatar as well. I do think it's fairly fitting, even moreso now that it seems to well represent my writing style.
> 
> It is interesting you mention that there is a flame but no burn. I've described other people in my life that way, but never myself. I wonder if it's an sp-dom thing. Maybe the sx-last aspect affects the intensity (or lack of it) in my communication style.
> 
> Thank you for the feedback. It's good to hear.


You seem consistently consistent 

It seems both inward and outward, but it seems tightly controlled. Like the inward is controlled and the outward is thus only somewhat visible.. I'd guess you are 8w9 if you are indeed an 8.

I'm no great shakes at Enneagram. I know you seem Balanced-Stable, aka the IJ temperament. With the underlying current...LSI-0 type 8 (358) would be my overall guess.


----------



## o0india0o

@Coburn

For what it's worth, I find you approachable. : )
(& I am definitely sensitive to that sort of thing, in the sense that I get nervous if I feel someone is not approachable)

Obviously, everyone is different, & going to interpret you differently. But you come across as kind, open-minded, and more likely to observe an opinion than judge or bash it. However, I don't remember you from my time on PerC a year or two ago -so, I cannot speak to your past writing style.

I will write more later, as my laptop charger broke, but a new one should be coming in the mail soon (I've had to type out all my messages on my phone; it's a pain). >_<


----------



## Coburn

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> You seem consistently consistent


Ha, so much for asking.



> It seems both inward and outward, but it seems tightly controlled. Like the inward is controlled and the outward is thus only somewhat visible.. I'd guess you are 8w9 if you are indeed an 8.


In your personal view, do I come off as fake? As in the way I present myself feels constructed rather than organic. 



> I'm no great shakes at Enneagram. I know you seem Balanced-Stable, aka the IJ temperament. With the underlying current...LSI-0 type 8 (358) would be my overall guess.


Interesting. I don't remember much about socionics, so I'll have to look into LSI-0.


----------



## Gorgon

@Coburn

You don't come off as fake or duplicitous at all, more reserved and a little hesitant to reveal overly personal information. As for your enneatype, you do seem like a competency type. 8w9 sp/so is also not a bad option, but I don't have definitive opinion on your type at this moment.


----------



## Coburn

o0india0o said:


> @Coburn
> 
> For what it's worth, I find you approachable. : )
> (& I am definitely sensitive to that sort of thing, in the sense that I get nervous if I feel someone is not approachable)
> 
> Obviously, everyone is different, & going to interpret you differently. But you come across as kind, open-minded, and more likely to observe an opinion than judge or bash it. However, I don't remember you from my time on PerC a year or two ago -so, I cannot speak to your past writing style.
> 
> I will write more later, as my laptop charger broke, but a new one should be coming in the mail soon (I've had to type out all my messages on my phone; it's a pain). >_<


Thanks for letting me know. I wasn't aware I came off as unapproachable to some. As I said, that's not an accurate reflection of who I am, and it's definitely not who I want to be.

I am glad that impression is not consistent, though.

On a side note, I'm glad you've made a return to PerC. You were away for awhile.


----------



## Brains

I don't know if unapproachable is the correct word. You just feel like you keep your distance. There's no active "I don't want contact" kind of vibe.


----------



## o0india0o

OK*!*

Do me next*!* (& not like that :tongue
(get your head out of the gutter)

How does my writing come across*?*


----------



## o0india0o

@Reina

I don't know if I've seen enough of your writing to say. (& I'm not sure if you went by a different name when I was here a year or two ago;; I don't remember you)

Anyone I don't remember, I apologize;; my memory heavily relies on the avatar images, so if those change, I am at a loss.

I have noted that your writing is eloquent, poetic. It has a vividness to it (like, you don't use the most obvious word choice). When you gave me a compliment on this thread, you said "it takes a massive set of ovaries". I thought that was creative, interesting, and a unique twist (I'm not saying you invented it - maybe you did), but you didn't take the most direct route or utilize the most utilitarian or "obvious" words to convey what you meant.

Your writing is enjoyable to read. All I can say (from one "writer" to another), is I would read whatever you published. 
You could definitely have a career that incorporated the written word (author, journalist, etc...).

So, not sure I get as much distinct vibes about you, so much as I get vibes of your *creative abilities*.


----------



## Brains

o0india0o said:


> OK*!*
> 
> Do me next*!* (& not like that :tongue
> (get your head out of the gutter)
> 
> How does my writing come across*?*


A huge friendly, genuine smile with a bit of fussy worrying and a tinge of mania for seasoning.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Coburn said:


> In your personal view, *do I come off as fake*? As in the way I present myself feels constructed rather than organic.


Only insofar as secretiveness can come off as fake. You seem to hold all your cards to your chest, and make only applicable plays.


----------



## Brains

Yup. You don't show much, but you don't seem like you hold up a front either. Much the same kind of feedback I've usually gotten.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

o0india0o said:


> OK*!*
> 
> Do me next*!* (& not like that :tongue
> (get your head out of the gutter)
> 
> How does my writing come across*?*


Cartoon-y. Playful, friendly and impassioned.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Carte blanche to type me is granted.

Also to analyze my communication style, if you think it enlightening. Or if you find it fun.


----------



## Coburn

o0india0o said:


> OK*!*
> 
> Do me next*!* (& not like that :tongue
> (get your head out of the gutter)
> 
> How does my writing come across*?*


Light, playful, summery. Cheery and earnest. There's a bit of a nervous energy underneath everything. Think of it like the flickering in a candle. The warmth is constant, but there's always a fluttering of energy behind it.

Your writing makes you appear to be more emotional, and probably also more prone to influence from others (in that the moods or attitudes of others towards you would impact your own mood). It's not a bad thing, just an observation.

Eh, you don't strike me as intense or very concentrated in the way you engage. You don't hone in with single-minded focus on any particular thing. You're also not gloomy or pessimistic, at least not in a way that affects the atmosphere.

Overall, very playful in a light kind of way. Also, very focused on others.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Shiver said:


> I'd only really considered it as part of a tritype I guess. Wouldn't an INTJ or INTP as an Eight be kind of odd?


With Se valuing, not all that strange. With Se PoLR, extremely strange yeah.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Se is still weak for INTJ though, and unconscious?


----------



## Shadow Tag

I feel like I see a couple people post here often enough to give a short analysis.

@Jakuri

You've always struck me as one of the calmer people on this site. And it feels different from the faux-calm apathy I see from others. I may be reading tone into your posts based on your soft and calmly colored collages and avatars though. But you seem super kind! 

@Brains

I know you very well, so this isn't fair.  but you're very to-the-point and keep things very focused on reality. You don't need extravagant and romanticized descriptions of anything, just stuff that is correct. You also give off a sense of knowing what you're talking about without being arrogant.

Sorry to other people, but I'd need to look at more posts. I am morbidly curious as to how I come off to others...


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Vermillion said:


> @*Lord Fenix Wulfheart* Enthusiastic, studious, and amicable with lots of different groups of people. I think you have a good talent for being an intermediary between different types of people and schools of thought because you engage all parties with inquisitiveness and deliberation. You also strike me as quirky, and it seems to me that your unconscious expectation from people is that they should engage your ideas seriously while also displaying affection for your quirkiness and whimsical nature. You strike me as expressive, but a lot cooler and detached with actual intimacy than you let on.


Thanks for mentioning the username change. I didn't know.

Hmm...I agree with most of this. I don't think I expect people to appreciate me for quirkiness and whimsy, though. Hmmm...I don't really see it, but I'll take that into consideration.

Although...you say DISPLAYING affection, not feeling affection. Did you perhaps mean that I expect a positive and affectionate atmosphere, one where people draw in close and listen to each other closely? Or did you mean that I expect individuals to display specific affection towards me whenever I act "quirky"? -_-

I do really well at being an intermediary, yeah. My 4th grade teachers assigned me to be a peer mediator after seeing me doing that sort of thing of my own accord. I didn't want the job, though. I didn't mediate because I was supposed to. I did it because I could see how people were failing to communicate, and I have a talent for explaining differences in viewpoint. 

I above all maintain my own ability to choose my destiny. If I did not choose to walk a path, then I will walk another path. I reforge my destiny at will, and pursue that which I want, and that which I will do for those I hold close. My pack is my strength. Yet I choose to walk alone so much, lost in the faerie paths of elsewhere. I dip out into the paltry realms of everyday mainly to maintain my connection to my people. If it weren't for them, I'd probably spend all my time studying and writing when I am not at work.

I suspect you are right that I hold people at a distance regarding intimacy. If I let someone in close, I want to be sure they will always be there. I cling too tightly to let someone in and then suffer the slings and arrows of betrayal again. So there are my people, and then "everyone else". I am nice to everyone else, but moving from everyone else to close to me requires something significant. I have to decide on it, to make it so. It doesn't just happen. It takes work!


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Oh, I just realized I can add instinctual stacking on my profile now. :crazy:


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Distortions said:


> Se is still weak for INTJ though, and unconscious?


Yes, but we are talking about motivations, not strengths.

Someone motivated with Eight motives is not likely to see Se as the worst function around, and actively seek to oppress it and get rid of it. Ya dig?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Yes, but we are talking about motivations, not strengths.
> 
> Someone motivated with Eight motives is not likely to see Se as the worst function around, and actively seek to oppress it and get rid of it. Ya dig?


Yeah, but I figure they'd be likely to be aware of it.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Vermillion said:


> Anyone care to describe their impression of me?  (Changed my name recently if you don't recognize me, formerly Night Huntress)


You strike me as more in-your-head and intellectual than I would expect, given what I know you type as. You appear to have learned the value of looking at things in a more cosmopolitan sense, looking at different angles and studying different fields. Yet despite this intellectualism, you definitely know how to have fun in life. You have a certainty about you that is frankly admirable. You don't question things unless there is a reason to do so.

By contrast, I question whether things even exist. I tend towards solipsistic thinking sometimes to outright nihilism. From my perspective, your certainty is like bedrock. You also don't hesitate to apply your knowledge to a discussion, and support your points if you must.

There is just a headlong-rush-at-life vibe that I get from you, and a chaotic approach to things when the usual tactic didn't work. Plus, you don't have that controlling vibe I often get from other people that are as energetic as you seem. You can be a little controlling in the sense of "you will do this", but you are not controlling in the sense of "you will think this".

As an aside, I don't tolerate when people try to tell me what I can think, or what I can feel. It doesn't bother me to be guided in what actions to take. It does bother me when someone tells me that my logic "doesn't work in the real world", or my ethics are wrong, or something like that. Or that I might as well give up, because I'll "never get it". What right do you have to tell me what I can learn and how I can grow? Psh, please. That burns me. Anyway. These are the things that I don't see you do, that I mean when I say you are not controlling. So only a specific kind of control, I guess.

So, when I look at your approach to things, I see a lot of fire and self assurance. You are like a tower of flame on a bed of sheer bedrock overlooking a peaceful lake, shielding the lake from a blasted wasteland. Everything that is needed to survive is right there, and those things that are not needed are elsewhere.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Distortions said:


> Yeah, but I figure they'd be likely to be aware of it.


Eights would be, you mean? Now, that is an interesting point. If it weren't for the fact that people can be unconscious of their motivations which Enneagram is discussing, I would agree. I'm unsure on if a function which is unconscious AND ALSO is weak would prevent an Enneagram type or not.


----------



## Immolate

Reina said:


> lol so I am a profiler now? Hahahaha. One thing that stands out for sure is that you're very private. Observant, detached, and eloquent *(I read your socionics 20q lol)*. Initially, you can come off as a little aloof, but you're friendly (I think so, we're on good terms though hahaha) and low key trollish at times . Do you still type at 5?


I'd forgotten that quagmire existed.

I would say I still experience myself as a 5 (as far as I understand the type) but I leave the door open for others to challenge my self-perception.


----------



## Brains

Shiver said:


> Not that the two systems are _supposed_ to overlap, but J and P are what I'm usually divided between. I suppose odd or rare doesn't equate to impossible. Maybe part of the problem is that I'm trying to reconcile about three states of personal existence into a single enneatype. The most "real" one seems more Five to me but I can see why people would pick up on Eight from my presence here.


Ah, if you're going by letter typings, Eight tends to correspond to ExTx - the tests and the functions use similar nomenclature but are empathically not the same thing. The MBTI test is pretty poor at assessing Eightishness, IMO - it misses measurement for one of the key traits that defines the style, which is a certain mental unperturbability.



Reina said:


> Like a surgical strike: you don't post often but when you do, your posts are often on point and you cut through the chaff. You obviously know your stuff. I haven't seen too many of your posts to get a clearer picture, but that's the impression that I get thus far.


Typology forums are an endless ocean of chaff though, it's permanent employment trying to spread common sense to dingbats D':



Vermillion said:


> @*Brains* From what I've seen of your posts, I'd say independent, self-assured, and set in your opinions and criticisms. Generally unmoving in your attitudes and allegiances. You don't like to dwell on too much thought and deliberation; things are how they are, and don't need to be picked apart further.


I move without a hitch when I see reason to. Most people on typology forums just don't give me those reasons. ^^'



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> With Se valuing, not all that strange. With Se PoLR, extremely strange yeah.





Distortions said:


> Se is still weak for INTJ though, and unconscious?


NTJs have high Te - Eightish reasoning style is simple, direct, blunt, cut to the chase. Very compatible with both Se and Te both.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Yes, but we are talking about motivations, not strengths.
> 
> Someone motivated with Eight motives is not likely to see Se as the worst function around, and actively seek to oppress it and get rid of it. Ya dig?


I'd kinda love for the "motivation" spiel to go the way of the dodo - it's all too often used to disconnect the typology from anything visible and defend inane typings that make no damn sense either with other typings or how the person plainly behaves and thinks.

It'd be better to speak of compulsions, worldviews, habits, mental crutches, something.


----------



## Shiver

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Eights would be, you mean? Now, that is an interesting point. If it weren't for the fact that people can be unconscious of their motivations which Enneagram is discussing, I would agree. I'm unsure on if a function which is unconscious AND ALSO is weak would prevent an Enneagram type or not.


Hypothetically, what would an INTP e8 look like to you? As opposed to INTJ e8? Or either as a particularly combative e5?


----------



## Brains

Shiver said:


> Hypothetically, what would an INTP e8 look like to you? As opposed to INTJ e8? Or either as a particularly combative e5?


INTP 8 doesn't really exist. INTJ 8, yours truly.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Shiver said:


> Hypothetically, what would an INTP e8 look like to you? As opposed to INTJ e8? Or either as a particularly combative e5?


I can't picture a Se Polr E8.

Sx 5 can be combative sometimes.



Brains said:


> I'd kinda love for the "motivation" spiel to go the way of the dodo - it's all too often used to disconnect the typology from anything visible and defend inane typings that make no damn sense either with other typings or how the person plainly behaves and thinks.
> 
> It'd be better to speak of compulsions, worldviews, habits, mental crutches, something.


Compulsions are acting to fulfill motivations. Worldviews are pretty useful, yeah. Habits are often compulsive and also arise from motivations. Mental crutches are basically mental shortcuts, which are essentially mental habits.

In other words, when I say motivation, I am talking about all of the things you just mentioned except worldview.

I agree that people use "motivation" as a crutch for bad typing.


----------



## Shiver

Brains said:


> INTP 8 doesn't really exist. INTJ 8, yours truly.


&


Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I can't picture a Se Polr E8.
> 
> Sx 5 can be combative sometimes.


So...it's possible I could be INTJ _or_ INTP as a somewhat combative Five, or that certain tendencies you're picking up on related to Eight would mean I'm more likely J than P? x)


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Shiver said:


> &
> 
> 
> So...it's possible I could be INTJ _or_ INTP as a somewhat combative Five, or that certain tendencies you're picking up on related to Eight would mean I'm more likely J than P? x)


You do *not* strike me as Se PoLR.


----------



## Shiver

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> You do *not* strike me as Se PoLR.


I think the argument used in the past was that I express an "inappropriate" degree of what was considered Se with socionics. At any rate the functions are more of a curiosity to me in MBTI; I'm not sure I quite buy into the Grant function stack.

If INTJ/ILI, why Eight > Five?


----------



## Brains

I'd be wary of equating MBTI lineage / Grant stacks and Socionics. The function definitions are different, the systems are very different and the types divvy up differently.


----------



## Gorgon

@Ivy
You're one of the friendliest people I've encountered on here (though we've had more interactions in that facebook group than we do on here). In regards to enneagram discussions, you always present a balanced view. Generally, you seem optimistic and level-headed, and you have dope taste in music. Would have a beer with :toast:.

@Jakuri
There's a degree of purity that I see in you and I'm not referring to purity predicated on chastity or naïveté. It's a purity constituted by a sincerity of character, honest self-reflection, and a degree of childlike wonder. I do sense that there's an underlying feeling of wistful melancholy. There's a constant and uneasy negotiation between you and the world at large. Feel free to call me out on my grade A bull if I'm off the mark.

Will probably do more drive by impressions later. 



Reina said:


> Damn now I'm curious how I come across.


My offer still stands.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Shiver said:


> I think the argument used in the past was that I express an "inappropriate" degree of what was considered Se with socionics. At any rate the functions are more of a curiosity to me in MBTI; I'm not sure I quite buy into the Grant function stack.
> 
> If INTJ/ILI, why Eight > Five?


Because you push ore than you withdraw so far as I have seen, and you are also clearly a Truth Teller.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Paradigm said:


> I'm with @*Brains*, I do think most people who type at 4 or 5 are mistyped.


Is this because of 4s and 5s supposedly being rare? (It's like people say there's a huge number of INxJs on here and they must be mistyped because they're rare - BUT, let's think about it properly, we're on the internet, on a specialist forum.....this is not a standard place with a standard demography....there's a huge chance rarer types will outnumber common types on here because of common types being common offline/in surveys probably done in a lot of businesses or street polls etc).


----------



## Jeffrei

Tad Cooper said:


> Someone finally said it!! :shocked:


I'm not the only one with sense around here!! :shocked:

Really though, since the start it's been "oh, I don't see you acting like the unhealthy image of a type 5 that I have in my head. Therefore you can't be type five. Here read this reiteration of the actual description of type five and see how it agrees with my points." They don't even consider health levels , wings, other typeologies, or anything besides the description of the type that they like most. *sigh* but I'm ranting now and nothing good ever comes out of that. :/

(Time to get overly dramatic) thanks for being a beacon of hope in this dark forum. XD


----------



## Tad Cooper

Jonneh said:


> I'm not the only one with sense around here!! :shocked:
> 
> Really though, since the start it's been "oh, I don't see you acting like the unhealthy image of a type 5 that I have in my head. Therefore you can't be type five. Here read this reiteration of the actual description of type five and see how it agrees with my points." They don't even consider health levels , wings, other typeologies, or anything besides the description of the type that they like most. *sigh* but I'm ranting now and nothing good ever comes out of that. :/
> 
> (Time to get overly dramatic) thanks for being a beacon of hope in this dark forum. XD


Haha why thank you!

Yeah I find it strange so much typing on here is based purely on low health descriptions. It's weird - what if people are actually average or healthy? Are they suddenly just integrated to another type and skip all the higher levels of their actual type? Also, very much agree on your points - enneagram interacts very much with other typologies and wings have a huge effect! (i.e. an 8w7 ESTJ will be extremely different to an 8w9 ENTP, but both are type 8....)

Aw that's very kind, thank you for being bold enough to say what half the people here have been thinking!!


----------



## Daeva

You can't see your healthy self without having gone through the dark ends of it.

There is no heaven without a hell.

If you don't understand why people look at the _neurotic_​ aspects of a type in order to type someone/themselves, then the point of the Enneagram of Personality has eluded you.



"Health levels, wings, other typologies," these are nothing but excuses. *Core type or bust*.


----------



## owlet

Daeva said:


> You can't see your healthy self without having gone through the dark ends of it.
> 
> There is no heaven without a hell.
> 
> If you don't understand why people look at the _neurotic_​ aspects of a type in order to type someone/themselves, then the point of the Enneagram of Personality has eluded you.
> 
> 
> 
> "Health levels, wings, other typologies," these are nothing but excuses. *Core type or bust*.


People can live their whole lives without going into the unhealthy levels of the enneagram - it depends on the individual and their circumstances. Can you explain why everyone must have been in the unhealthy states?

Also, the enneagram is about self-understanding and improvement, but people at any level of health can continue to better understand and improve themselves. Focusing on the neurotic aspects, as you put it, is confining people to a preconception how how they should be to fit your understanding of a type. It's not helpful.


----------



## Daeva

owlet said:


> People can live their whole lives without going into the unhealthy levels of the enneagram - it depends on the individual and their circumstances. Can you explain why everyone must have been in the unhealthy states?
> 
> Also, the enneagram is about self-understanding and improvement, but people at any level of health can continue to better understand and improve themselves. Focusing on the neurotic aspects, as you put it, is confining people to a preconception how how they should be to fit your understanding of a type. It's not helpful.


Imagine an individual who, for all intents and purposes, can be considered "healthy" and who is not as entrapped by their type as most are. Now, is this individual keenly aware of their own pitfalls, of their own "dark side?"

If they are not, then they aren't _healthy_, speaking in Enneagram terms. After all, how can one achieve balance of the heart, mind, and body, without knowing what to balance in the first place?

You know what is not helpful? A stifling community that can't imagine the benefit of honest critique, but instead celebrates self-deceit and censorship.


----------



## owlet

Daeva said:


> Imagine an individual who, for all intents and purposes, can be considered "healthy" and who is not as entrapped by their type as most are. Now, is this individual keenly aware of their own pitfalls, of their own "dark side?"
> 
> If they are not, then they aren't _healthy_, speaking in Enneagram terms. After all, how can one achieve balance of the heart, mind, and body, without knowing what to balance in the first place?
> 
> You know what is not helpful? A stifling community that can't imagine the benefit of honest critique, but instead celebrates self-deceit and censorship.


If you haven't been through a period of being unhealthy, it's all hypothetical what you'd be like during that time and so unreliable. You might say 'I know myself really well so I'm certain I'd be like this' but when it actually happened, you might react extremely differently. It's that idea of someone having never had a broken leg: they can imagine what it might feel like, but they can't _know_. Are you saying anyone who hasn't gone through an unhealthy period is unable to know they own type and/or is also not actually healthy in terms of enneagram as they 'aren't aware of balance'?

I'm not stifling you, I just want you to actually back up and reason out what you're saying, because at the moment it's all unsubstantiated and therefore useless.


----------



## Jeffrei

owlet said:


> People can live their whole lives without going into the unhealthy levels of the enneagram - it depends on the individual and their circumstances. Can you explain why everyone must have been in the unhealthy states?
> 
> Also, the enneagram is about self-understanding and improvement, but people at any level of health can continue to better understand and improve themselves. Focusing on the neurotic aspects, as you put it, is confining people to a preconception how how they should be to fit your understanding of a type. It's not helpful.


Bless you! enguin:


----------



## owlet

Jonneh said:


> Bless you! enguin:


That penguin! I do indeed feel blessed :sun-smiley:


----------



## Daeva

owlet said:


> If you haven't been through a period of being unhealthy, it's all hypothetical what you'd be like during that time and so unreliable. You might say 'I know myself really well so I'm certain I'd be like this' but when it actually happened, you might react extremely differently. It's that idea of someone having never had a broken leg: they can imagine what it might feel like, but they can't _know_. Are you saying anyone who hasn't gone through an unhealthy period is unable to know they own type and/or is also not actually healthy in terms of enneagram as they 'aren't aware of balance'?
> 
> I'm not stifling you, I just want you to actually back up and reason out what you're saying, because at the moment it's all unsubstantiated and therefore useless.


What you're saying reminds me of when someone asks you "How was your childhood?"
If someone would say "Good!" or "Great!", or even a simple "Fine," the person who asked the question will think the other is full of shit. They won't necessarily think the other person was lying to them, as much as that they are lying to _themselves_.

I used to be that person who would answer "Good!" to that very question.
Experience has now shown me how the person who doubts this answer was right all along. It's not a coincidence that they are also older and more experienced than me.

Now, consider me the person who asks you "How was your childhood?"
And if you say it was "fine" or whatever else positive, I'll say that you're lying to yourself.

There is no person who has gone become an adult or young adult who hasn't seen their ugly, unhealthy selves. There is nothing _hypothetical_​ about it.


----------



## Manuscript

Daeva said:


> If you don't understand why people look at the _neurotic_​ aspects of a type in order to type someone/themselves, then the point of the Enneagram of Personality has eluded you.


On the subject of unhealthy types, I found this table describing schizoid personality disorder to read an awful lot like a standard Type Five description, except with all the parts about knowledge and learning taken out. I thought that was quite interesting.

Edit: Of course, I wouldn't suggest people type themselves based on which personality disorder they resemble the most. That would be silly and demeaning of people with mental illnesses.


----------



## Jeffrei

So far this conversation is giving me serious batman vibes. 




But really though, knowing your own demons is one thing. Having someone try to type you using demons they think you should be showing right now is another.


----------



## owlet

Daeva said:


> What you're saying reminds me of when someone asks you "How was your childhood?"
> If someone would say "Good!" or "Great!", or even a simple "Fine," the person who asked the question will think the other is full of shit. They won't necessarily think the other person was lying to them, as much as that they are lying to _themselves_.
> 
> I used to be that person who would answer "Good!" to that very question.
> Experience has now shown me how the person who doubts this answer was right all along. It's not a coincidence that they are also older and more experienced than me.
> 
> Now, consider me the person who asks you "How was your childhood?"
> And if you say it was "fine" or whatever else positive, I'll say that you're lying to yourself.
> 
> There is no person who has gone to become an adult or young adult who hasn't seen their ugly, unhealthy selves. There is nothing _hypothetical_​ about it.


This bears no relevance to the current discussion. Describing an entire childhood of experience (18-21 years depending on where you live) to someone else vs understanding your own core motivations/fears is incomparable.
Your final sentence is a massive subjective assumption so I'm not going to discuss that with you.

If you have any actual reasoning or evidence to prove what you're saying (even just an enneagram source saying everyone will have been through all the levels of health) then I'll respect your view more. At the moment you're just using hyperbolic examples to try and pressure me into simply agreeing with you, when you haven't given me any reason to.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Daeva said:


> What you're saying reminds me of when someone asks you "How was your childhood?"
> If someone would say "Good!" or "Great!", or even a simple "Fine," the person who asked the question will think the other is full of shit. They won't necessarily think the other person was lying to them, as much as that they are lying to _themselves_.
> 
> I used to be that person who would answer "Good!" to that very question.
> Experience has now shown me how the person who doubts this answer was right all along. It's not a coincidence that they are also older and more experienced than me.
> 
> Now, consider me the person who asks you "How was your childhood?"
> And if you say it was "fine" or whatever else positive, I'll say that you're lying to yourself.
> 
> There is no person who has gone to become an adult or young adult who hasn't seen their ugly, unhealthy selves. There is nothing _hypothetical_​ about it.


It's more accurate if we type based on average and healthy levels - society makes us respond a certain way and changes our behaviour and thought patterns with how we might react if in a negative place. 

Let me use an example:
I'm personally stuck between type 8 and type 7. I have had huge amounts of issues of boredom, aggression BUT also repressing that aggression - now that makes me seem like a 9. Also, I really hate standard things and the mundane, so am I now a 4? I love to collect knowledge and will learn for the sake of learning, now I'm a 5? 

You see what I mean ?You can't base type from one aspect of the theory. You have to look at the theory as a whole and how it interacts with other theories. Another example of looking at one aspect is typing based on the core motivation - Even then that becomes difficult because societal pressure may influence that. So, you do need to look at all angles, all parts of the theory, how the theory interacts with others, social influence, cultural influence, mental illness etc etc etc.

I guess you're just making it very limited and extremely simple?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Jonneh said:


> So far this conversation is giving me serious batman vibes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But really though, knowing your own demons is one thing. Having someone try to type you using demons they think you should be showing right now is another.


----------



## Jeffrei

Tad Cooper said:


>


Oh my gosh thank you! :rolling:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

To be honest, I find very unlikely that someone hasn't dealt with hurtful moments. Either they won the jackpot or are in denial of things for coping and not falling apart. Blocking bad memories isn't rare if you become numb to your reality.


----------



## Daeva

owlet said:


> This bears no relevance to the current discussion. Describing an entire childhood of experience (18-21 years depending on where you live) to someone else vs understanding your own core motivations/fears is incomparable.
> Your final sentence is a massive subjective assumption so I'm not going to discuss that with you.
> 
> If you have any actual reasoning or evidence to prove what you're saying (even just an enneagram source saying everyone will have been through all the levels of health) then I'll respect your view more. At the moment you're just using hyperbolic examples to try and pressure me into simply agreeing with you, when you haven't given me any reason to.


You honestly can't see the common thread between one's childhoods wounding and the Enneagram? If that's true, then you need to go back to the books and read up on the Enneagram. This is basics.


----------



## owlet

Daeva said:


> You honestly can't see the common thread between one's childhoods wounding and the Enneagram? If that's true, then you need to go back to the books and read up on the Enneagram. This is basics.


You've misunderstood me. I'm saying having to answer a question like 'how was your childhood?' is completely different from being able to understand your core motivations/fears. One is asking you to sum up 18-21 years worth of information to another person, while the other is being able to introspect deeply enough to understand your motivations.


----------



## owlet

Dragheart Luard said:


> To be honest, I find very unlikely that someone hasn't dealt with hurtful moments. Either they won the jackpot or are in denial of things for coping and not falling apart. Blocking bad memories isn't rare if you become numb to your reality.


There's a difference between experiencing hurtful moments and going through the lowest health levels in the enneagram though, isn't there?


----------



## star tripper

brightflashes said:


> I was commenting on it with my OWN words. He said something like ... except 4s and 5s. Then I was like highlight what he said and comment back: Yeah, I think it's interesting that 5s and 4s are supposed to be rare ... That was MY thought. I think it's interesting. I think it's whatever. So many people who are on this forum tout these rarities (INFJs, 4s, 5s, whatever). I have seen a lot of evidence for INFJs, but I haven't seen any evidence for 4s or 5s. I was appealing to both paradigm AND the rest of the forum members here to provide resources if they had them. If paradigm felt targeted that was a misread of what I meant to say.
> 
> I guess that conversations don't come across very well over these boards sometimes.
> 
> Just in case I wasn't clear enough it was like:
> 
> "Most 4s and 5s are mistyped" (paradigm - paraphrasing)
> 
> Me: "Speaking of 4s and 5s, >NEW TOPIC< I think it's interesting that ....


It didn't translate that way because it was phrased as though the idea originated from, I suppose, those aligned with Paradigm? Something like "Where do you guys get the idea from?" when the idea was in fact brought up by you. I think that's why the message seemed to get lost and dissolve into defensiveness. I would reckon that's what happened to the entire thread, though; disconnected thoughts happened to be phrased in such a way that others could see them as accusatory. That's my working theory.


----------



## 7rr7s

Alright so I currently type as 3w4 so/sx. 3w4 7w6 8w9 so/sx. for the full tritype. 

However, I have heard a couple people say they thought I could be cp6 or 8 core. I don't really see either for core, 8 especially. However, I've been told I have more of a combative way of talking, that can at times come off as bullying. I don't really see this, but we all have blindspots. I think this could also just be Te rearing it's ugly head (I'm an INFP), but since this is primarily enneagram focused, we should probably stick to that. 

Only two others have typed me as 6, and neither of them are active anymore. But recently it has been suggested by two others so I wanted to explore that a little bit more in depth. I don't think my motives and behaviors are primarily fear based, they are more image based, but again we all have blind spots and I guess I can maybe come off differently to others. 

Even maybe not even 6 core, but possible 6 fixed over 7 fixed, too I'm open to whatever. 

For those who have just interacted with me briefly, and those that have interacted with me much more in depth, I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks in advance. 

Also, a brief history of my typing: 

Typed as 4w3 originally, then looked deeper at motives, fears, and lines of integration and disintegration and decided on 3. In the past 6 months I have looked at both 4 and 7 core, but still thought 3 fit best. Never really considered any other type except those 3 seriously. 

@*Animal* @*daleks_exterminate* @*Veggie* @*Chesire Tower* @*Lady Pirate* @Polexia Smallpox and anyone else. Feel free to chime in. Don't sugar coat shit either, feel free to be brutally honest here.


----------



## Purrfessor

@Bad Hombre

I remember you used to type as 3 and I liked it on you. It was pretty fitting imo. 3w4 makes more sense than w2. I don't necessarily believe in tritype so I'll leave it at that. 

Vs 6? Nah 6 is more mind than heart. You have heart man and that's what makes you you. 8 is more body like me, concerned with action and direction. I constantly have to move and when I stay still I think about moving. That's why lust is the corresponding sin built around fear - addiction to power. Integration to 2 means giving power instead of acquiring power so it's helped me a lot to realize this. 

For 3 that means integration is built around moving to 6, which is less action and more mindfulness, allowing your image to be in your control. If you move toward 9 then you'll be more out of control and depressed. 

Asking others perspective is a good way to integrate to 6, growing mindfulness of your image.


----------



## brightflashes

@Bad Hombre 

You have a very poetic way of describing things and you seem remarkably in control of and aware of your feelings. I can see a type 3 for you. As for a head fix, I'd suggest 7w6 maybe only because you're so creative. I have no clue on gut fix, though. 

I'm not very good at Enneatyping people, though. For me, finding my type and stepping back and looking at all of the issues, fears, challenges, etc... that come from it was like being punched in the gut because of how hard the truth hit me. So, knowing what I do about you, I also really encourage you to trust your own self awareness because you have a lot of it. 

I see so and then maybe sx as far as those go.


----------



## Paradigm

brightflashes said:


> I was commenting on it with my OWN words. He said something like ... except 4s and 5s. Then I was like highlight what he said and comment back: Yeah, I think it's interesting that 5s and 4s are supposed to be rare ... That was MY thought. I think it's interesting. I think it's whatever. So many people who are on this forum tout these rarities (INFJs, 4s, 5s, whatever). I have seen a lot of evidence for INFJs, but I haven't seen any evidence for 4s or 5s. I was appealing to both paradigm AND the rest of the forum members here to provide resources if they had them. If paradigm felt targeted that was a misread of what I meant to say.
> 
> I guess that conversations don't come across very well over these boards sometimes.
> 
> Just in case I wasn't clear enough it was like:
> 
> "Most 4s and 5s are mistyped" (paradigm - paraphrasing)
> 
> Me: "Speaking of 4s and 5s, >NEW TOPIC< I think it's interesting that ....


Assertive and defensive are different :\

Anyway, the logic was you quoted me and went straight to the "rare" thing; you didn't really say you changed topic, but you did link me to a topic. I felt like you were implying I must believe 4/5s are mistyped because I believe 4/5 is rare, but I don't. (I should say, I don't anymore; people could dig through my past posts if they wanted and surely find I said they were. I don't believe that anymore as I've matured.) I do believe types are more equalized than they were when last counted... That is, each type distribution should be around 11%, give or take a few. As far as I'm aware, they're not, and if I'm wrong and they are, idk, I'll praise the gods and become a monk 

Tbh most of this conversation was handled poorly at times by both sides, so don't feel weird or unwanted. You're cool.


----------



## 7rr7s

Stelliferous said:


> @*Bad Hombre*
> 
> I remember you used to type as 3 and I liked it on you. It was pretty fitting imo. 3w4 makes more sense than w2. I don't necessarily believe in tritype so I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Vs 6? Nah 6 is more mind than heart. You have heart man and that's what makes you you. 8 is more body like me, concerned with action and direction. I constantly have to move and when I stay still I think about moving. That's why lust is the corresponding sin built around fear - addiction to power. Integration to 2 means giving power instead of acquiring power so it's helped me a lot to realize this.
> 
> For 3 that means integration is built around moving to 6, which is less action and more mindfulness, allowing your image to be in your control. If you move toward 9 then you'll be more out of control and depressed.
> 
> Asking others perspective is a good way to integrate to 6, growing mindfulness of your image.


Thanks man that was helpful. The cases for 6 were based on reactivity, and planning. I'm not gonna get pushed around and I'll stand up for myself, and with regards to planning I'm very focused on goals, and more so about the end goal. 

The other thing they brought up was how I said I like working when I'm under pressure because I get better results. I think they thought of it like 6 pushing themselves just for the sake of pushing themselves, but I'm all about the end result and I'm going to push myself to the absolute brink and right up until the very end because I'm assuming tough competition, and because I'm focused on the end goal which is victory. 

I guess that could maybe be 8 stuff too, but I'm not so much concerned with power in that sense. I am for sure, but it's not my main aim. Maybe the way I go about it is 8ish in the sense that I don't care about the odds, I don't care about the obstacles, I don't care how much I have to push myself. To me it's not about trying to prove to myself that I can do it, which I think would be more 6, and it's not pushing myself in order to feel alive which I think is more 8ish. There's probably some elements like that in there, but I see it more as There's a goal, and I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to reach it. And so I'll push past fatigue, push past doubt, push past setback, ect. and others won't. 

To me it's like, whatever I'm going after, I figure there's others going after it as well, and I don't know maybe they're just a bunch of clowns or maybe they're actual tough competition. So basically my whole mindset is that I have to want it more than they do, because that will allow me to push myself further than they do, and just take out the competition. And not just take them out, but to sweep em, to humiliate and brutalize them. A win is always nice, but a blowout is even better. Maybe that's probably more 8ish, now that I think about it. 

It reminds me of this poem thing that I have on my vision board. I actually kind of had to keep it together because it really hit home for me, so I had my boss print it out and I put it on my wall. 


* *





The training hurt. 
He was tired.
The work, the early hours, the late nights.
The blood, the sweat, the tears.
The pain.
He hurt.
He was tired.
However he knew someone was doing more
When he went to bed he knew someone was staying up later
When he woke up he knew someone had woke up earlier
He wanted to do his best
He knew the only way to do that was to work harder than everyone else
So he woke up earlier and he stayed up later
He studied harder, he worked more, he pushed further
Yet in his mind one phrase remained.
Someone was doing more.
Soon he no longer felt the pain.
He stopped being tired.
He pushed without thought.
But still, only one thing mattered to him.
Somebody was doing more.
When it came time to put his work to the test, the battle was titanic.
The struggle was intense.
However in the end, one was the victor.
It all came down to one simple thing
He had done more.



 


I guess I could see both 6 and 8 doing that sort of thing too, though.


----------



## Jeffrei

hornpipe2 said:


> This thread title needs to be changed from "gently" to ... well, something else, anyway.


Well it's not even about figuring out types anymore... :/
I probably should have just left well enough alone and let the thread stay dead. XD


Really though guys, you could continue "discussion" in the other thread meant for this kind of stuff (the controversial enneagram opinions thread). That way this thread can get back on track for if someone else wants feedback on their type.




Bad Hombre said:


> Alright so I currently type as 3w4 so/sx. 3w4 7w6 8w9 so/sx. for the full tritype.
> 
> However, I have heard a couple people say they thought I could be cp6 or 8 core. I don't really see either for core, 8 especially. However, I've been told I have more of a combative way of talking, that can at times come off as bullying. I don't really see this, but we all have blindspots. I think this could also just be Te rearing it's ugly head (I'm an INFP), but since this is primarily enneagram focused, we should probably stick to that.
> 
> Only two others have typed me as 6, and neither of them are active anymore. But recently it has been suggested by two others so I wanted to explore that a little bit more in depth. I don't think my motives and behaviors are primarily fear based, they are more image based, but again we all have blind spots and I guess I can maybe come off differently to others.
> 
> Even maybe not even 6 core, but possible 6 fixed over 7 fixed, too I'm open to whatever.
> 
> For those who have just interacted with me briefly, and those that have interacted with me much more in depth, I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Also, a brief history of my typing:
> 
> Typed as 4w3 originally, then looked deeper at motives, fears, and lines of integration and disintegration and decided on 3. In the past 6 months I have looked at both 4 and 7 core, but still thought 3 fit best. Never really considered any other type except those 3 seriously.
> 
> @*Animal* @*daleks_exterminate* @*Veggie* @*Chesire Tower* @*Lady Pirate* @Polexia Smallpox and anyone else. Feel free to chime in. Don't sugar coat shit either, feel free to be brutally honest here.


thank you! XD


----------



## 7rr7s

Jonneh said:


> thank you! XD


What are you thanking me for?


----------



## Purrfessor

Bad Hombre said:


> Thanks man that was helpful. The cases for 6 were based on reactivity, and planning. I'm not gonna get pushed around and I'll stand up for myself, and with regards to planning I'm very focused on goals, and more so about the end goal.
> 
> The other thing they brought up was how I said I like working when I'm under pressure because I get better results. I think they thought of it like 6 pushing themselves just for the sake of pushing themselves, but I'm all about the end result and I'm going to push myself to the absolute brink and right up until the very end because I'm assuming tough competition, and because I'm focused on the end goal which is victory.
> 
> I guess that could maybe be 8 stuff too, but I'm not so much concerned with power in that sense. I am for sure, but it's not my main aim. Maybe the way I go about it is 8ish in the sense that I don't care about the odds, I don't care about the obstacles, I don't care how much I have to push myself. To me it's not about trying to prove to myself that I can do it, which I think would be more 6, and it's not pushing myself in order to feel alive which I think is more 8ish. There's probably some elements like that in there, but I see it more as There's a goal, and I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to reach it. And so I'll push past fatigue, push past doubt, push past setback, ect. and others won't.
> 
> To me it's like, whatever I'm going after, I figure there's others going after it as well, and I don't know maybe they're just a bunch of clowns or maybe they're actual tough competition. So basically my whole mindset is that I have to want it more than they do, because that will allow me to push myself further than they do, and just take out the competition. And not just take them out, but to sweep em, to humiliate and brutalize them. A win is always nice, but a blowout is even better. Maybe that's probably more 8ish, now that I think about it.
> 
> It reminds me of this poem thing that I have on my vision board. I actually kind of had to keep it together because it really hit home for me, so I had my boss print it out and I put it on my wall.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The training hurt.
> He was tired.
> The work, the early hours, the late nights.
> The blood, the sweat, the tears.
> The pain.
> He hurt.
> He was tired.
> However he knew someone was doing more
> When he went to bed he knew someone was staying up later
> When he woke up he knew someone had woke up earlier
> He wanted to do his best
> He knew the only way to do that was to work harder than everyone else
> So he woke up earlier and he stayed up later
> He studied harder, he worked more, he pushed further
> Yet in his mind one phrase remained.
> Someone was doing more.
> Soon he no longer felt the pain.
> He stopped being tired.
> He pushed without thought.
> But still, only one thing mattered to him.
> Somebody was doing more.
> When it came time to put his work to the test, the battle was titanic.
> The struggle was intense.
> However in the end, one was the victor.
> It all came down to one simple thing
> He had done more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I could see both 6 and 8 doing that sort of thing too, though.


Ah doing more as competition see that is where it's different than 8 though I do relate to pushing myself very hard. I do it differently though because I don't compare. 8w7 pushes for the feeling of being alive like you said. It's selfish in that sense but it's also selfless because I am not trying to win vs anybody but myself. I'm fearlessly honest with my image, accepting naked exposure of my flaws. I don't let my flaws ultimately dictate my action; if I feel flawed I'll just take inaction disintegrating to 5 observation. Right now I'm working on my chicken legs before I take sexual action because they aren't manly enough for action. Disintegration was my addiction and ruining my manliness. Every day is a lesson on how to improve and I'm not quite at my zone yet where I feel I can start having casual sex. 

And beyond sex, it's about making money and climbing that ladder. It's a fun progression game that eventually should lead me to where I should be.


----------



## Jeffrei

Bad Hombre said:


> What are you thanking me for?


For getting this thread back on topic. Sorry, I probably should have said that in my other post.


----------



## tinyheart

Bad Hombre said:


> @*Animal* @*daleks_exterminate* @*Veggie* @*Chesire Tower* @*Lady Pirate* @Polexia Smallpox and anyone else. Feel free to chime in. Don't sugar coat shit either, feel free to be brutally honest here.


You're a bloody weepy 9w/ bloody moral 1.


----------



## tinyheart

I'm a bloody 8.

I'm aggressive.

Rawr.

Watch me howl.


----------



## Purrfessor

Lady Pirate said:


> I'm a bloody 8.
> 
> I'm aggressive.
> 
> Rawr.
> 
> Watch me howl.


Basically yeah that's integrated 8. Same as anyone else's. Disintegrated 8 is pathetic like everyone else who disintegrates. 



I mean soft 8 is integrated to 2. Disintegrated 8 howls. Disintegration comes from focus on negativity - which is useful for improvement.

Aggression is not social, but physical. It's a fire built around nature.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> People can live their whole lives without going into the unhealthy levels of the enneagram - it depends on the individual and their circumstances. Can you explain why everyone must have been in the unhealthy states?
> 
> Also, the enneagram is about self-understanding and improvement, but people at any level of health can continue to better understand and improve themselves. Focusing on the neurotic aspects, as you put it, is confining people to a preconception how how they should be to fit your understanding of a type. It's not helpful.





owlet said:


> If you haven't been through a period of being unhealthy, it's all hypothetical what you'd be like during that time and so unreliable. You might say 'I know myself really well so I'm certain I'd be like this' but when it actually happened, you might react extremely differently. It's that idea of someone having never had a broken leg: they can imagine what it might feel like, but they can't _know_. Are you saying anyone who hasn't gone through an unhealthy period is unable to know they own type and/or is also not actually healthy in terms of enneagram as they 'aren't aware of balance'?
> 
> I'm not stifling you, I just want you to actually back up and reason out what you're saying, because at the moment it's all unsubstantiated and therefore useless.


Personally, I wouldn't say that everyone has hit rock bottom or whatever, but everyone does carry their dark side around with them, we contain the potential for our unhealthy selves around with us. 

There's this metaphor I wrote in a story that I really like (the concept I mean, best way I've found to phrase it):

“Well . . . I still believe you are good.”
“Still believe? Then what would change your mind?”
She shook her head. “Nothing about you. Only if I come to understand – really, truly understand – that there is no such thing as a good person, or a bad person . . . that light and dark are two sides of the same coin – that they need each other, or else they will not exist at all. How can you do something wrong – unless you knew that you could have done something better?”
I shook my head bitterly. “I am all evil – except for you.”
“That can’t be,” she said, “Because even when I am dead – you will exist. *And even if you turn entirely to the dark, it means you must turn away from the light, and so the light will be shining on your back* – even when I am dead.”

What I mean is, we can't escape the dark, we can just turn away from it and it is still there on our back...we are defined by the impulses we repress. and it's always there if we choose to look back at it. 



Daeva said:


> What you're saying reminds me of when someone asks you "How was your childhood?"
> If someone would say "Good!" or "Great!", or even a simple "Fine," the person who asked the question will think the other is full of shit. They won't necessarily think the other person was lying to them, as much as that they are lying to _themselves_.
> 
> I used to be that person who would answer "Good!" to that very question.
> Experience has now shown me how the person who doubts this answer was right all along. It's not a coincidence that they are also older and more experienced than me.
> 
> Now, consider me the person who asks you "How was your childhood?"
> And if you say it was "fine" or whatever else positive, I'll say that you're lying to yourself.
> 
> There is no person who has gone to become an adult or young adult who hasn't seen their ugly, unhealthy selves. There is nothing _hypothetical_​ about it.


Well, I think I agree with the overall point of what you're saying but...if someone asked me about my childhood I'd say it was good, because my overall impression of my childhood is good, actually I was a pretty sad child, I know I usually felt lonely and different and ...old I guess but I do think on the whole it was a good childhood, don't think childhoods are just empirically bad just like there's lots of things I don't like about my life but on the whole I'm glad I have it, I'm glad I had my childhood too and not another one, when I was a child I might have said differently, I was dramatic, but I didn't realize how much the things that hurt me then would mean to me later. So I'd still say it was good and I don't think I'm lying to myself, I love my childhood.


----------



## Dangerose

I'm rethinking my core type; considering 9 or 6 maybe, also 6 instead of 7 for core type
I just don't feel like a 2 really, I don't even like people, spending time with other people feels like going into battle, it's fine for an hour or two but after that I really want to hide somewhere and cry instead, I don't know if I can really blame that all on sp



The Night's Queen said:


> I don't think I'm an ExFx 2, it's ridiculous
> Maybe just introversion
> 
> Did something rude today, copy-and-pasting the messages I sent to my mother about it:
> 
> I'm in [city]
> It's not fun
> [girl i went with]'s husband who is oldish and has a weird personality is here, also two guys I was never introduced to
> [girl i went with] picked me up at 10 at the hotel and then brought me to her house where we were waiting for her husband for a long time
> Then he came but idk we were waiting for something else or I don't know
> At some point when it was at least 12 I thought I heard the words 'vamos' so I started to walk towards the door and they started laughing at the hilarious notion that I thought we'd be leaving already
> Well, we left though eventually
> And went to a restaurant in [town i live in]
> I guess just to look at it
> And then went back
> And then waited more
> And then left for [city]
> stopped to eat lunch
> Finally got there
> At 3 or something
> Went to the [event]
> It was crowded and difficult and we were only there for a little bit
> Well, long enough
> Then, they wanted to find some church to use it's bathroom
> But were lost and asking every person
> *And then actually they gave me the choice did I want to go to Bluff (some place where you can swim) or back to [my town]
> And I really wanted to go back but I just said like whatever you want* This seems 9ish?
> Then more driving
> Around and around
> Then we stopped at the Central Park and stayed there for a lifetime
> Then...I guess Bluf you have to take a ferry
> It was 7:45 when we got to the ferry
> Which left at 9
> So they just said we would wait for the ferry
> And arrive 'at 10 or 11'
> This is when I become the villain in the piece
> *I finally said that I was really tired and wanted to get a hotel here and I'd meet them in the morning, it was just that I was really tired
> They said no, they're all occupied or have bed bugs
> I forgot the part of the story where they were driving around for at least an hour inquiring at hotels
> I just wanted to escape understand
> They said the one across the street did have rooms but they didn't like them
> I said I was going to stay there anyways
> They said no they weren't going to let me stay alone
> And then I just awkwardly thanked them or something trying to be polite and said I'd meet them in the morning and walked over to the hotel*
> [girl] and her husband followed me and also got a room
> And I think they thought I was mad that I"d over-interpreted her husband's jokey flirty remarks
> Which I don't love btw but it wasn't that but that makes it feel more awkward
> Oh
> We were going to go on an hour walk which I thought I could stand
> But because I said I was tired they stopped at some cafe thing instead
> Which was SO MUCH WORSE
> That was the thing I was tired OF, sitting around
> 
> Also feels sp
> 
> *I was planning on sneaking off the the cafe when they left on the ferry to get tea
> I'm hoping I can wake up really early to do so tomorrow
> 
> I mentioned I think the tea collage and crying about tea I was doing earlier in the week
> But having to spend time with these people was not worth it
> 
> Another thing - is this sp? - they kept trying to convince me to leave my bag behind in the car, I hated that but kept doing it, finally when they wanted to walk around before going on the ferry one of the mystery guys had been talking to me and then he was the third person to say I could leave my things in the car, I almost screamed at him (I mean, I did something like screaming, but not quite, it was obviously really rude though) not on purpose, I just felt so attached to having my bag with me
> 
> I notice I'm like that in general, it makes me feel in control or something lol, I hate knowing my bag is not with me, can't explain it*


Like would a 2 really do that? It's not just that one incident, I'm frequently leaving parties early by any means necessary

Childhood thing reminded me, found this rude personality analysis by my fourth grade teacher, probably telling that reading it kills me inside every time, makes me want to cry
Can see it as sign of 4 soul child, if soul children work like that, but it also seems 6ish, I think I was a really cp6ish child

* *








> Behavior: (removed per op request) is such a sweet and enthusiastic student. Her curiousity is boundless, and it is so exciting to see a student openly embrace different not only in herself, but also in others. She is strong minded and cannot be swayed easily. (removed per op request) is very sure of her abilities, and what she is capable of. Socially she is doing just fine in class. I know there were some issues dealing with some of the other girl students, but (removed per op request) handled it very nicely. I know that she is a very strong advocated for fairness, and treating others with equality. She saw this was not happening and intervened. It takes a strong person in 4th grade to feel comfortable enough to come to the aid of friends in trouble. She doesn't take any "guff" from other students and I think that throws some of them for a loop. Not only that but (removed)'s intelligence can be a little daunting as well. I enjoy her individuality and I will make sure that everyone appreciates (removed) for who she is. It will be very interesting to watch her develop over the next couple of years. Academically (removed) is very adept in all of the subject areas that we cover. Whether it is reading, writing, or math, (removed) is confident and consumes all of the class work with style. I would like her to focus a little bit more on the quality of her work i.e. neatness and clarity. This next semester (removed) will be spending more time on her homework so please be prepared for that. She should be spending about 1/2 hours Mon.-Thurs. night on homework when I have moved her up into other lesson groups. I do worry about (removed) making her individuality such an issue that the other students cannot openly accept (removed) without her flaunting her differences just to be different. I love her uniqueness, but I don't want her to focus on being different I would rather (removed) just be (removed).


Also this part sounds 6ish



> (removed) will also often question me about how she could have possibly gotten the question wrong that I marked. I don't mind that but it has become too much of a consistent. I would like her to look at the problem first before she questions my actions.









> We are working on creating a human body right now, and (removed) was working furiously, but she forgot about her partner. She wanted to prove that she could do all of the work herself without the help of a sixth grader. (removed) will just have to become more aware of the needs of others if she wants to continue to improve her social skills.
> Suggestions for Improvement/Comments: As (removed) matures she will need to become more and more aware of other people's needs and point of views, and how they differ from hers.


Last thing, how is that 2?

* *






And this thing I wrote, I also just sound ridiculously scornful of valleys, which is funny but also seems like a problem with 9



> I am more like a mountain than a valley. Valleys are easy to cross through, but mountains stand in peoples' ways. They do not give up too easily, like valleys.
> Mountains are noticed, they don't accept being taken advantage of. I feel that I am the same way.
> If I am angered, I am more likely to act upon my anger than try to leave, to sink into the earth, like a valley. Like me, mountains fight back.
> I am also slightly power-hungry. Mountains hold power over people. You have to deal with them, one way or the other.
> Mountains are also strong, and I am strong-willed. To me, mountains seem proud, and I am also very prideful and I can not stand to be wrong.
> All in all, I think that I am definitely more like a mountain than a valley.






* *





Other childhood things:

(notice where my handwriting gets all cursivey...this is 2 though imo)










4? :laughing:


----------



## 7rr7s

Stelliferous said:


> Ah doing more as competition see that is where it's different than 8 though I do relate to pushing myself very hard. I do it differently though because I don't compare. 8w7 pushes for the feeling of being alive like you said. It's selfish in that sense but it's also selfless because I am not trying to win vs anybody but myself. I'm fearlessly honest with my image, accepting naked exposure of my flaws. I don't let my flaws ultimately dictate my action; if I feel flawed I'll just take inaction disintegrating to 5 observation. Right now I'm working on my chicken legs before I take sexual action because they aren't manly enough for action. Disintegration was my addiction and ruining my manliness. Every day is a lesson on how to improve and I'm not quite at my zone yet where I feel I can start having casual sex.
> 
> And beyond sex, it's about making money and climbing that ladder. It's a fun progression game that eventually should lead me to where I should be.


Yeah, I think there's definitely a lusty side to me and a gluttonous side to me, although they both get kind of confused in enneagram circles, but that's maybe a different topic of the 8 lust vs. 7 gluttony. But yeah I do shit to feel alive or to feel something sometimes. But it's more about feeling something vs. testing my limits or facing my fears. 

And I think I view flaws differently. Like outwardly I don't want anyone to see my flaws, but inwardly I know I am very flawed, but I use these flaws to fuel me, to push my further than I ever thought possible and to become the best version of myself. Not even just flaws either, but circumstances. Like, are you down an out? Good, get up and make it a come back story. Are people telling you you can't or you shouldn't or the reasons why you might fail? Good, work harder and prove them wrong. Are the odds insurmountable, is the competition fierce, and does it scare you a little bit? Good, because that means you'll dig deeper and become something not even you thought were capable of becoming. 

I feel like 8 mindset is like " I have no limits."
6 mindset is "I want to test my limits."
3 mindset is "I'm going to overcome my limits." 

I think it's also different how 4s see flaws. I can see good in them, but more so in that they push me towards growth, whereas a 4 would use them to form their identity around them I feel like. If there was any identity tied to my flaws, it would be acknowledging them and overcoming them, or succeeding in spite of them. 


Also, what exercises do you do for the chicken legs? And yes, it's all about climbing that ladder! Loll, reminds me of this (Probably 3 actually, loll).


----------



## Dangerose

Please give some feedback, I always think I'm a 2 and a Fe-dom when I'm sitting alone in my room wishing I was spending time with people, but when I'm in the real world I don't know that I really act like a 2, most of my energy goes towards trying to keep people at bay and not mad at me, or disappointed by me and then trying to get away from them.

I relate to neediness/dependency of 2, think I relate to the pride, definitely relate to being a shame type, I was thinking the other day that it's heads or tails if I wake up in the morning filled with excitement/dread of new day or just shame about something I wish I hadn't said, kind of shame that makes me want to live under my covers forever and erase all memory of myself from the minds of the world...and I think I relate to the idea of trying to buy love, and false generosity, for instance I'm almost incapable of telling someone something's too expensive for me because I want them to think money's an endless resource for me even though I know they must know it isn't, as a teen I'd invite friends over and I'd spend like the whole day before making so much food, I was so scared of people thinking they could only take a little that I wanted to make such an obvious excess, I want drinking my wine to be like drinking from a river. But idk if that is CONSISTENT for me and I can be stingy too. 

So basically what I relate to in three pillars 2 is:

1. Loneliness/liking people
2. Sensitivity to deprivation, denial of deprivation
3. Obsessive creepiness

Which...idk if it's really enough
I'm not actively giving, helpful, or even actively likable on an average day, I don't really seduce in any sense of the word, I just wait for people to come to me and then half the time get mad when they do

So idk, rethinking, every time I actually spend time with people I start really doubting things


----------



## brightflashes

I have a question. Would someone who is overly "prude" or sexually reserved to an extreme be _more_ likely to be an 8 or be _less_ likely to be an 8?


----------



## Purrfessor

brightflashes said:


> I have a question. Would someone who is overly "prude" or sexually reserved to an extreme be _more_ likely to be an 8 or be _less_ likely to be an 8?


Depends on why they are prudish


----------



## Purrfessor

Bad Hombre said:


> Yeah, I think there's definitely a lusty side to me and a gluttonous side to me, although they both get kind of confused in enneagram circles, but that's maybe a different topic of the 8 lust vs. 7 gluttony. But yeah I do shit to feel alive or to feel something sometimes. But it's more about feeling something vs. testing my limits or facing my fears.
> 
> And I think I view flaws differently. Like outwardly I don't want anyone to see my flaws, but inwardly I know I am very flawed, but I use these flaws to fuel me, to push my further than I ever thought possible and to become the best version of myself. Not even just flaws either, but circumstances. Like, are you down an out? Good, get up and make it a come back story. Are people telling you you can't or you shouldn't or the reasons why you might fail? Good, work harder and prove them wrong. Are the odds insurmountable, is the competition fierce, and does it scare you a little bit? Good, because that means you'll dig deeper and become something not even you thought were capable of becoming.
> 
> I feel like 8 mindset is like " I have no limits."
> 6 mindset is "I want to test my limits."
> 3 mindset is "I'm going to overcome my limits."
> 
> I think it's also different how 4s see flaws. I can see good in them, but more so in that they push me towards growth, whereas a 4 would use them to form their identity around them I feel like. If there was any identity tied to my flaws, it would be acknowledging them and overcoming them, or succeeding in spite of them.
> 
> 
> Also, what exercises do you do for the chicken legs? And yes, it's all about climbing that ladder! Loll, reminds me of this (Probably 3 actually, loll).


Right Meow I'm doing some blood flow exercises then I'll throw in some weighted squats once I have the blood flow. Pretty simple. At the moment I'm more like a boxer in the ring, light legs to dance around with a tough upper. Trying to connect upper blood flow with lower blood flow then pump up the legs more. The basics is all you need for size gain. The complex stuff is creating balance.

btw you sound like my brother. I think he's like a 6? Yeah more a 6. I do think you're somewhere in the 369 spectrum. Hard to tell what is your good side and what is your bad when I'm not you, but I suspect you're a 3 with integrating 6. 

I could be a 5 with integrating 8 for example. It gets hard to tell at times. Which would make type 1 my best match - hence my interest in religion. Though 8 makes more sense since I fight possessively which indicates 2 integration.


----------



## Brains

Tad Cooper said:


> Ahh interesting! Well, my avoidance of anger is because of social things - people reacted really badly to my aggression/anger etc when I was a young teen and I ended up learning to control/repress it etc...
> I did consider 9w8 at one point but didnt relate to a lot of the 9 description generally and dont really care about peace etc haha


9 isn't quite as much about peace as it is about _not being bothered_. One good nickname for the type could be _stubborn unwillingness._


----------



## Jeffrei

The Night's Queen said:


> I'm rethinking my core type; considering 9 or 6 maybe, also 6 instead of 7 for core type
> I just don't feel like a 2 really, I don't even like people, spending time with other people feels like going into battle, it's fine for an hour or two but after that I really want to hide somewhere and cry instead, I don't know if I can really blame that all on sp
> 
> Like would a 2 really do that? It's not just that one incident, I'm frequently leaving parties early by any means necessary
> 
> Childhood thing reminded me, found this rude personality analysis by my fourth grade teacher, probably telling that reading it kills me inside every time, makes me want to cry
> Can see it as sign of 4 soul child, if soul children work like that, but it also seems 6ish, I think I was a really cp6ish child
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also this part sounds 6ish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last thing, how is that 2?
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this thing I wrote, I also just sound ridiculously scornful of valleys, which is funny but also seems like a problem with 9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other childhood things:
> 
> (notice where my handwriting gets all cursivey...this is 2 though imo)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4? :laughing:


Nah, I'm really seeing 3 for you.  (jk jk)

Really, I think you are the only one who truly knows what motivates you. Sure some of what you do may look like type x, but why you do it is really the deciding factor. For instance, a few things you said sound like 9, but what motivated you to do it is truly the deciding factor, right? For instance you aiding friends in trouble. Was that because you wanted to keep the peace (9), because only you can pick on your friend (probably 8), because you loved them and wanted to help them (2ish), etc. It is really something that you'd have to do some soul searching for. It sounds like you have a general idea on where to start looking though.


----------



## Paradigm

owlet said:


> @Immolate asked if I could link the thread for her as she's a bit tied up with some stuff - thanks for offering to look through it  It's here.


Thanks  



Immolate said:


> @mAAd city interacted with me for a time and suggested 5 or 1 as my core type; that said, I'm curious to hear from @Paradigm should they care to look through my post/questionnaire history.


I'm actually going to suggest 3 (probably 3w4) for your core type. You seem to disintegrate to 9 (and not wholly because of depression - I too struggle with depression), and you wrote about some competency/shame issues I wouldn't be surprised to see in a 3. 

Gotta remember, most 3s (most _humans_) aren't really more than the average Joe. And while 3s strive for success, that success can differ greatly from 3 to 3. Your questionnaire has a very 3ish line that conveys this: "I want to avoid reaching the end of my life and thinking I could have done more. I could have felt or understood more."

* To be honest though I read only the first post.


----------



## Dangerose

Jonneh said:


> Nah, I'm really seeing 3 for you.  (jk jk)
> 
> Really, I think you are the only one who truly knows what motivates you. Sure some of what you do may look like type x, but why you do it is really the deciding factor. For instance, a few things you said sound like 9, but what motivated you to do it is truly the deciding factor, right? For instance you aiding friends in trouble. Was that because you wanted to keep the peace (9), because only you can pick on your friend (probably 8), because you loved them and wanted to help them (2ish), etc. It is really something that you'd have to do some soul searching for. It sounds like you have a general idea on where to start looking though.


I thought I was trying to express my motivations
I don't know how to sort through these things, which is why I'm asking the question)) I feel like I need an outside perspective
Thanks though)


----------



## Tad Cooper

Brains said:


> 9 isn't quite as much about peace as it is about _not being bothered_. One good nickname for the type could be _stubborn unwillingness._


Oh nice! Well I dont like people bugging me without a good reason, but I have a very pressurised life so time is a big issue for me....Im generally happy to be bugged if Im not busy - is that 9?


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> I'm actually going to suggest 3 (probably 3w4) for your core type. You seem to disintegrate to 9 (and not wholly because of depression - I too struggle with depression), and you wrote about some competency/shame issues I wouldn't be surprised to see in a 3.
> 
> Gotta remember, most 3s (most _humans_) aren't really more than the average Joe. And while 3s strive for success, that success can differ greatly from 3 to 3. Your questionnaire has a very 3ish line that conveys this: "I want to avoid reaching the end of my life and thinking I could have done more. I could have felt or understood more."
> 
> * To be honest though I read only the first post.


This is quite new, but not surprising given you read as little as you did. I'll keep it in mind.


----------



## Paradigm

Immolate said:


> This is quite new, but not surprising given you read as little as you did. I'll keep it in mind.


*shrugs* You asked me to type your questionnaire, so I did.

To be honest, the fact that everyone is clamoring for 1/4/5 is outright weird to me, given there's no themes of those anywhere aside from "competency," not even when you go more in depth. Your "collage" is hardly 4, IMO, but instead displays the 3ish.. broken identity (vs the 4ish embracement of broken). I hate typing by pictures, though, as the symbolism is never obvious except to the maker.

Genuinely have no idea why people are saying 4 for you - not because of the collage, but because you never mentioned 4 things from what I saw. (Well, some w4 things but not core 4.)

I don't believe 90% of the people here on PerC understand type 3. Even I don't understand 3 fully (I sometimes mix them up with SOC 7s) but, since everyone is egotistical, I think I understand it more than most.

9 is maybe the only other type, but it doesn't fit your patterns half as well.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> *shrugs* You asked me to type your questionnaire, so I did.
> 
> To be honest, the fact that everyone is clamoring for 1/4/5 is outright weird to me, given there's no themes of those anywhere aside from "competency," not even when you go more in depth. Your "collage" is hardly 4, IMO, but instead displays the 3ish.. broken identity (vs the 4ish embracement of broken). I hate typing by pictures, though, as the symbolism is never obvious except to the maker.
> 
> Genuinely have no idea why people are saying 4 for you - not because of the collage, but because you never mentioned 4 things from what I saw. (Well, some w4 things but not core 4.)
> 
> I don't believe 90% of the people here on PerC understand type 3. Even I don't understand 3 fully (I sometimes mix them up with SOC 7s) but, since everyone is egotistical, I think I understand it more than most.
> 
> 9 is maybe the only other type, but it doesn't fit your patterns half as well.


3 just happens to be one of the types I relate to the least, although the most likely of the heart types. I would have said 9 sooner than 3.


----------



## Dangerose

Ooh, I can actually see 3 for @Immolate, don't think I ever thought of that before but...I can see it.


----------



## Immolate

The Night's Queen said:


> Ooh, I can actually see 3 for @Immolate, don't think I ever thought of that before but...I can see it.


You can say more.


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> You can say more.


Well, it's a new idea for me so I don't really have any bank of support for it but...repressing shame makes sense and you seem to have a push-pull relationship with expressing emotions, which I saw as 5 and 4 interacting but it could be 3 trying to lean into 4. The way I see it you're very enamored of for instance the Japanese broken pottery symbolism but you haven't given a carte blanche to other kinds of emotional indulgence the way 4 do. Line to 9 makes sense and I think I see a little 6 influence in you here and there. Plus imo you're pretty obviously a competency type, never thought 1 seemed quite right. Can still see 5 but 3 is an intriguing notion.


----------



## Immolate

The Night's Queen said:


> Well, it's a new idea for me so I don't really have any bank of support for it but...repressing shame makes sense and you seem to have a push-pull relationship with expressing emotions, which I saw as 5 and 4 interacting but it could be 3 trying to lean into 4. The way I see it you're very enamored of for instance the Japanese broken pottery symbolism but you haven't given a carte blanche to other kinds of emotional indulgence the way 4 do. Line to 9 makes sense and I think I see a little 6 influence in you here and there. Plus imo you're pretty obviously a competency type, never thought 1 seemed quite right. Can still see 5 but 3 is an intriguing notion.


What such 6 influence, and why obviously competency?


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> What such 6 influence, and why obviously competency?


I don't know :/


----------



## Immolate

The Night's Queen said:


> I don't know :/


You mentioned these things just to mention them?

In case it needs clarification, my questions are genuine.


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> You mentioned these things just to mention them?
> 
> In case it needs clarification, my questions are genuine.


I mentioned them just to mention them because it's my feeling, but I don't have anything laid out in my mind as to exactly why. 
Didn't think these questions weren't genuine; not trying to evade answering either, just don't have any specific evidence or...I said everything that existed in my mind


----------



## tinyheart

I'm a 7.

Look at me.

I'm wasting productive time playing video games all day.

Whoopeee.


----------



## Paradigm

Immolate said:


> 3 just happens to be one of the types I relate to the least, although the most likely of the heart types. I would have said 9 sooner than 3.


I mean, I'm not surprised. Sorry if this is the wrong assumption, but most people read 3's "successful" and assume "rich and famous" or something similar. They rarely think of "trying (and maybe failing) to be the best researcher" or "trying to be the best homemaker" or "the best writer" or other more common tasks.

Try this description, it's a _little _bit more modest than many.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> I mean, I'm not surprised. Sorry if this is the wrong assumption, but most people read 3's "successful" and assume "rich and famous" or something similar. They rarely think of "trying (and maybe failing) to be the best researcher" or "trying to be the best homemaker" or "the best writer" or other more common tasks.
> 
> Try this description, it's a _little _bit more modest than many.


I agree it's a good description but still not relatable aside from the pushing aside of the emotional self. Overall the type comes across as too other-focused and socially conscious.


----------



## Paradigm

Immolate said:


> I agree it's a good description but still not relatable aside from the pushing aside of the emotional self. Overall the type comes across as too other-focused and socially conscious.


The descriptions are definitely leaned towards that stereotype much like the 6 descriptions are leaned towards being "outwardly loyal." I can't really say much except please don't dismiss it out of hand. I _can_ say that I personally know 3s who are not all that (maybe a little, but everyone is a little), and certainly none of them are social climbers. Maybe just sit on it for a while?


----------



## Jeffrei

Lady Pirate said:


> I'm a 7.
> 
> Look at me.
> 
> I'm wasting productive time playing video games all day.
> 
> Whoopeee.


What? You had fun? 7 confirmed. XD


----------



## tinyheart

I'm a 6.

Super anxious.

Who's Stacy? Why you call her last night?

Person: That's...my cousin...that I told you about. -__-

Me: LIEEESSSS!!!!


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> The descriptions are definitely leaned towards that stereotype much like the 6 descriptions are leaned towards being "outwardly loyal." I can't really say much except please don't dismiss it out of hand. I _can_ say that I personally know 3s who are not all that (maybe a little, but everyone is a little), and certainly none of them are social climbers. Maybe just sit on it for a while?


I have sat on all types for a while. I don't know what you want or expect me to say. At the very least, type 3 has the most possibility out of the types I don't see for myself: 2, 3, 7, 8.

To add, I'm not necessarily referring to social climbing, but to image consciousness, if there's much of a distinction there.


----------



## owlet

@Paradigm I'm curious why you'd say type 3 over type 1 for @Immolate from the questionnaire. Was there a lot of focus on self-image/needing to be seen a particular way rather than the 1ish desire to be 'good'?

This:


> While Threes are energetic and ambitious, they are also diplomatic—they want to be liked and esteemed by others. They strive to be presentable and appropriate, not wanting to come across in ways that would be disapproved of. They know how to put their best foot forward and present themselves in a way that highlights their energy and confidence.


Versus this:


> Type One exemplifies the desire to be good, to live up to the highest ethical standards, and to effect positive changes in the world. While a number of types care about achieving goals, Ones are particularly aware of how they achieve their goals. Were they honorable? Did they use their resources wisely? Were they fair and truthful? Ones are people of high standards and they expect themselves and others to live by those standards as much as possible.


----------



## Paradigm

owlet said:


> @Paradigm I'm curious why you'd say type 3 over type 1 for @Immolate from the questionnaire. Was there a lot of focus on self-image/needing to be seen a particular way rather than the 1ish desire to be 'good'?
> 
> This:
> 
> 
> Versus this:


There's some theories suggesting that the SP 3 is the most moralistic and even prides itself on being in the best moral person. I think Maitri or Chestnut goes into it, but I'm on mobile atm so it's hard for me to find. I'm not sure of the instincts @Immolate types at but my idea just more along the lines that if one type of 3 thinks maybe being Good is the best success then why not other types of 3? 

@Immolate, I didn't even expect you to rely to that last post I made, so I certainly don't expect you to say much more :tongue:


----------



## owlet

Paradigm said:


> There's some theories suggesting that the SP 3 is the most moralistic and even prides itself on being in the best moral person. I think Maitri or Chestnut goes into it, but I'm on mobile atm so it's hard for me to find. I'm not sure of the instincts @*Immolate* types at but my idea just more along the lines that if one type of 3 thinks maybe being Good is the best success then why not other types of 3?


Hm, but in that case, how would you differentiate type 1 and type 3?


----------



## owlet

@The Night's Queen After reading up on 3, I could see 3w2 for you.


----------



## Immolate

@owlet Self-Preservation Three according to Beatrice Chestnut



> Self-Preservation Threes strive to be the ideal model of quality in whatever they do. They want to be the best example of how to be in whatever role they play: the best parent, the best partner, the best worker, the best at whatever they do. *They feel a need not only to be seen as good*, but also to actually be good. They do this both to achieve a sense of security and to *inspire admiration in others* without being obvious about their vanity. They want to be admired because they do things well, and they want to do the things they do in the best way possible–not just to *have a good image that people will find attractive*, but also to live up to that image. Their tendency to adapt to a "model" also motivates them to forget their own feelings.
> 
> Following the perfect model of how things should be done means being virtuous, and being virtuous implies a lack of vanity. In this sense, the Self-Preservation Three "has vanity for having no vanity." *This means that while this Three wants to look attractive and successful in the eyes of others, they don't want other people to know they want this–they don’t want others to see that they have actively created an image to look good to others.* They don't want others to catch them in the act of wanting or working to look good because they have an ethic that say that "good,” or virtuous, people are not vain. Some Self-Preservation Threes are aware (and will admit) that they want people to admire them for their good image–though, generally, they want to keep this a secret–but *some Self-Preservation Threes believe so firmly that it is wrong or superficial to want the approval of others that they won't admit this desire even to themselves*. These are people who want to be so perfect that it's not in their code of honor to allow for vanity.
> 
> 
> In denying the presence of vanity, the Self-Preservation Threes represents the countertype of the three Three subtypes–that is, this Three is the "counter-passional" type, the Three that doesn't necessarily look like a Three. Though these Threes are motivated out of vanity, just like the other Threes, they deny their vanity to some extent, and so their character is shaped more around going against the energetic pull of vanity. And there is a natural opposition between the vain desire to attract attention and a primary instinctual drive toward security and self-preservation. Unlike Social Threes, who will more openly brag about their accomplishments, Self-Preservation Threes avoid talking about their positive characteristics and high-status credentials because they believe it's bad form to advertise their strong points, even if they also want others to see them as successful. They may be either modest or falsely modest.





> It can be hard for a Self-Preservation Three to be recognized as a Three. They may be easily confused with Ones or Sixes. This Three looks like a One in that the type is rigid, responsible, and self-sufficient. These Threes, like Ones, try to be a model of virtue in the things they do. The can be distinguished from Ones in that they move at a faster pace, *pay attention to creating an image (even when they don't acknowledge it)*, and conform to a perfect model of how to be as *judged by social consensus*, not according to internal standards of right and wrong (as Ones do). They differ from Sixes in that they are fundamentally image-oriented and work harder in response to insecurity, while Sixes find protection in other ways. And while Threes may question their sense of identity, they generally don't allow their productive to get slowed down by too much doubt or questioning.


The problem here is the image-consciousness and desire for external validation, but, as explained by Chestnut, the Self-Preservation 3 is going to deny these desires even to themselves, and so my saying that I don't strive for recognition (and prefer not to be "seen" at all, as being "seen" places me in a position of vulnerability, discomfort, obligation, etc) is essentially worthless.


----------



## Paradigm

Immolate said:


> @owlet The problem here is the image-consciousness and desire for external validation, but, as explained by Chestnut, the Self-Preservation 3 is going to deny these desires even to themselves, and so *my saying that I don't strive for recognition* (and prefer not to be "seen" at all, as being "seen" places me in a position of vulnerability, discomfort, obligation, etc) *is essentially worthless.*


_I'm_ not trying to say that, by the way, if it came off that way. I couldn't have even quoted a line of that (I tend to remember gists, not details), so it slipped my mind. But the _idea_ of a moralistic 3, not as vainglorious or charismatic as some 3s are, was a gestalt that I was thinking of, yes.

@owlet, did that answer your question well enough or would you still like me to answer yours? Because mine largely just comes down to the triads involved (anger vs shame, assertive vs compliant, etc).


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> @The Night's Queen After reading up on 3, I could see 3w2 for you.


Thanks! Can you tell me why?
Can anyone else see it?

(Have some thoughts but want to hear more about this before I do)


----------



## Dangerose

I'm really intrigued by this 3 thing, I'm curious if people can _see_ me as a 3 (whether you think I am a core 3 or not, just whether it makes sense as a possible type for me)

Please vote )

https://goo.gl/1kGgRK

Now another poll, just for core type
edit: now the link's right

https://www.poll-maker.com/poll1081251x27C34e9B-45

:teapot:


----------



## Darkbloom

The Night's Queen said:


> I'm really intrigued by this 3 thing, I'm curious if people can _see_ me as a 3 (whether you think I am a core 3 or not, just whether it makes sense as a possible type for me)
> 
> Please vote )
> 
> https://goo.gl/1kGgRK
> 
> Now another poll, just for core type
> 
> https://goo.gl/2Rp291
> 
> :teapot:


Wrong link for the second one, I can see the results but can't vote


----------



## Dangerose

Amaranthine said:


> Wrong link for the second one, I can see the results but can't vote


Thanks, here's the new poll

http://www.poll-maker.com/poll1081251x27C34e9B-45

________________

Thank you, people, for voting on the previous one)


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@The Night's Queen 2w1 makes sense, I am not sure why you keep changing your type haha. It's good to explore how you relate to other types but, I don't really see it changing your core. I would also say I see plenty of 7 in you. As for your instincts, I don't know sorry. Typically people identify their blindspots almost immediately as "definitely" their blindspot. Can you relate to that?


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> @The Night's Queen 2w1 makes sense, I am not sure why you keep changing your type haha. It's good to explore how you relate to other types but, I don't really see it changing your core. I would also say I see plenty of 7 in you. As for your instincts, I don't know sorry. Typically people identify their blindspots almost immediately as "definitely" their blindspot. Can you relate to that?


Thank you; good to hear))
Let me do this thing though, having fun now and it helps me think)) 
The problem with 2 is that I keep seeing myself act in completely un2ish ways and I'm not sure if ANYONE I know irl would type me like that if they knew Enneagram, and...idk, sometimes I feel like I'm stretching 2 descriptions to fit me and then basing my idea of the type on that.

Instincts, yeah, my immediate thought was that I was clearly sp-last since...I am famously bad at practical things, I've always had a real antipathy towards people putting a lot of attention into self-preservation matters, not interested in picking the right clothes for the weather outside, etc...tbh I still see myself as sp-last but most people on here see a lot of sp in me. Most people on here also seem to see me as sx-last, I can't identify with the sx blindspot at all (except that I worry I'm unattractive but...I am unattractive :laughing. Originally typed as sx/so on the basis that I'm preoccupied and weird about sx things (granted however much of that is 2), a little weird but don't care enough for it to be a defining issue about so things, making central position normal, and ignoring sp things to the point it becomes a problem. That makes sense to me. But if sx is people eating each other in fire then no, don't relate to that lol. And if sp is pretty things and longing then yes I like that.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

The Night's Queen said:


> Thank you; good to hear))
> Let me do this thing though, having fun now and it helps me think))
> The problem with 2 is that I keep seeing myself act in completely un2ish ways and I'm not sure if ANYONE I know irl would type me like that if they knew Enneagram, and...idk, sometimes I feel like I'm stretching 2 descriptions to fit me and then basing my idea of the type on that.


People don't type you at 2 irl? That's interesting. 



> Instincts, yeah, my immediate thought was that I was clearly sp-last since...I am famously bad at practical things, I've always had a real antipathy towards people putting a lot of attention into self-preservation matters, not interested in picking the right clothes for the weather outside, etc...tbh I still see myself as sp-last but most people on here see a lot of sp in me.


I think you should trust your intuition with that one, but ask others why they see SP too. 



> Most people on here also seem to see me as sx-last, I can't identify with the sx blindspot at all (except that I worry I'm unattractive but...I am unattractive :laughing.


I don't think SX i the only one that worries about being unattractive. Their preoccupation with rejection has much to do with desirability, than other things (for example, I am also worried about being emotionally repulsive or something). I can't even take rejection, in fact I think much of my BPD symptoms have been in response to that. But what I need I think, is affection, warmth, tenderness (SO) - although that's still not enough, I look for more - more than actual connection with someone (SX). 



> That makes sense to me. *But if sx is people eating each other in fire* then no, don't relate to that lol. And if sp is pretty things and longing then yes I like that.


I don't know what that means lol
-------------

I am not that confident on instincts but, I have noticed (including myself) that people look at their blindspot instinct as something they don't really need. "I am just fine without it - why would I need it?" 
I have a similar attitude towards SP, I personally find their concerns boring (don't mean to offend anyone) and unnecessary (to me).

SO blindspots don't seem to understand what I mean when I refer to a social group "out there." Of course they understand what a society is, but they seemingly gloss over the social group part when I tell them about something that is important to me, that I would like the society to change in this and this way, while they are more individually focused. They seem to not understand why I feel so strongly about how a society _should _be. So much so I intertwine my own well-being and happiness with those ideals.

Also, people saying that only SX can be intense is completely false - each instinct can be intense. How can you _not _be intense about something you believe you need? It's just different kinds of it. I agree totally with SX being more "wet" though - that is how I experience it.


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> People don't type you at 2 irl? That's interesting.


Well, people I know irl don't know Enneagram (sent a link to my 4 friend and she said 8 but I don't think she read it that closely) I just mean that I don't think I come off as a 2 irl at all. I would guess most people would type me as 4 or 9, based on the things they say about me, maybe some 7 or 8...different people who I know in different situations :laughing:

I don't think I come off as giving, prideful, or very emotional, in a 2 way at least, people get really shocked if I start crying or show that I care about something, like they didn't think emotions were in my repetoire, have had people try to MBTI type me, just by dichotomies of course, and it's usually a T type...people usually think I care a lot less about things/people than I do too. I'm pretty quiet, or come off a little quiet even when I'm not, but tend to be difficult also, I'm quiet and confusing enough that people end up making things up about me pretty much, the 4 thing, which I'm sure a lot of people would go for, is because I definitely come off as 'different' and maybe melancholy as well.




> I think you should trust your intuition with that one, but ask others why they see SP too.


Well...yeah. The thing is, past few years I've been becoming more sp-ish also, mostly in the form of getting really upset when I'm uncomfortable, which...I never used to care or even think about. 
I think I know where the sp comes from (I have asked too) and I can kinda see it but I'm not sure. The one thing is that...I like for instance cooking, and actually what I really want in life is to get married and live in a house and have children, I'm quite domestic in that way (but I'm not naturally...soft, either, if that makes any sense). Also this sort of longing, diagonal aesthetic I have in my collages and artwork I like comes off I think as sp. Some of my first ones, before I started trying to be artistic lol or tell stories, I was just trying to express a mood (actually the last one is about my alter-ego character lol but it's still not the kind of thing I started doing later):





































Think they have sort-of smokey/misty wistfulness that is sp-ish.
Idk if I trust visual typing on my collages because I'm NOT a visual person, I never related to images before I started trying this on this website, I don't know what I'm doing, I feel much more comfortable with music and lyrics expressing me, unfortunately it's impossible to make a music collage)



> I don't think SX i the only one that worries about being unattractive. Their preoccupation with rejection has much to do with desirability, than other things (for example, I am also worried about being emotionally repulsive or something). I can't even take rejection, in fact I think much of my BPD symptoms have been in response to that. But what I need I think, is affection, warmth, tenderness (SO) - although that's still not enough, I look for more - more than actual connection with someone (SX).


I meant that as something I'd seen about sx blindspot)
I mean, I've always been most preoccupied with desirability (again, assuming I'm a 2 this is natural), and of course connection. For example ever since I learned that men are attracted to thin women (which took me a ridiculously long time) I've been very obsessive about my weight (never would have gained weight if I hadn't been) but it was never about anything but making people love me, or at least desire me. I mean...that's normal, not saying it's sx, but I don't think it's sx-last either.

Wanted to be Esmeralda))





The thing that is I think sx-first-ish about me...not sx-last-ish...that I don't talk about here is how I have always been quite liable to become very obsessed with one person and turn everything in my life to face them, I have never pursued anyone because I am afraid of rejection...because I need that obsession to survive, this is also a 7ish/9ish thing imo, that I would rather have the fantasy, that maybe he will choose me and suddenly court me properly, fight dragons and go through storms for me, than face the reality that he's just another person as interested in me as any other person, in addition to this I am a difficult person to know, and I am afraid of hurting someone I love by letting them too close to me, in a way it is better not to have power over people, really I wish I had the power to destroy the people I care about but I am afraid I would use it. And...it would hurt my pride. 
Though lately I've stopped at least trying to hide things. Worried I drive people unnecessarily away by seeming too indifferent :/




> I don't know what that means lol


Oh, I just mean...the images and metaphors used for sx tend to be very...like if there's not lots of blood and fire then it's not sx and...yeah, idk, that kind of thing



> I am not that confident on instincts but, I have noticed (including myself) that people look at their blindspot instinct as something they don't really need. "I am just fine without it - why would I need it?"
> I have a similar attitude towards SP, I personally find their concerns boring (don't mean to offend anyone) and unnecessary (to me).


I don't know if I feel this way about any of them, as I said though I think I used to feel that way about sp...lately I've had more respect for sp, not sure why, and I think adopting some sp things as an interest, if not a focus (don't think my mind naturally goes there but I try to actively be interested in it)

But I do focus on sp things naturally in that...I tend to eat a lot, especially when I'm bored or emotional, tend to sleep a lot or almost not at all, it's not healthy sp but it is sp



> SO blindspots don't seem to understand what I mean when I refer to a social group "out there." Of course they understand what a society is, but they seemingly gloss over the social group part when I tell them about something that is important to me, that I would like the society to change in this and this way, while they are more individually focused. They seem to not understand why I feel so strongly about how a society _should _be. So much so I intertwine my own well-being and happiness with those ideals.


This is interesting to me, also I can relate to the so blindspots in this (though I don't really think I'm social-blind, I am sensitive to hierarchies and I like...people...for instance). It's very hard for me to look at society from a distance or...feel _connected_ to it in the sense that it's not just a theoretical mental exercise.



> Also, people saying that only SX can be intense is completely false - each instinct can be intense. How can you _not _be intense about something you believe you need? It's just different kinds of it. I agree totally with SX being more "wet" though - that is how I experience it.


I agree with this
I also don't experience myself as...'wet' bored I think of myself as a very desert-like person, maybe just because I grew up in the desert lol but it seems to match my personality...

edit: yeah, definitely desert, no other natural environment matches me at all
This has always been 'my song'






Also this, but not in the 5 way, in a different way


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Rose for a Heart said:


> Also, people saying that only SX can be intense is completely false - each instinct can be intense. How can you _not _be intense about something you believe you need? It's just different kinds of it. I agree totally with SX being more "wet" though - that is how I experience it.


Wet in what sense? I'm curious because I would say I experience myself as pretty "wet" (as awkward as that is to say, lmao), but I'm not sure what exactly is meant by that here.


----------



## owlet

Paradigm said:


> _I'm_ not trying to say that, by the way, if it came off that way. I couldn't have even quoted a line of that (I tend to remember gists, not details), so it slipped my mind. But the _idea_ of a moralistic 3, not as vainglorious or charismatic as some 3s are, was a gestalt that I was thinking of, yes.
> 
> @*owlet*, did that answer your question well enough or would you still like me to answer yours? Because mine largely just comes down to the triads involved (anger vs shame, assertive vs compliant, etc).


I think it did. My main issue with type 3 for @Immolate is the outward focus and wanting to not be a 'nobody'/wanting to stand out in some way which has never come up as a concern for her in conversations. I'm mostly curious about why 3 over 1.

@The Night's Queen - as for 3 for you, you have often posted about a concern over people's impressions of you and how you want them to see you, as well as being highly critical over what you perceive as a lack of success. The 9ish aspects could be to do with disintegration. What do you think?
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-3/


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> @The Night's Queen - as for 3 for you, you have often posted about a concern over people's impressions of you and how you want them to see you, *as well as being highly critical over what you perceive as a lack of success.* The 9ish aspects could be to do with disintegration. What do you think?
> https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-3/


Can you elaborate on the bold? Do you mean in myself or in others? I'm not sure I'm aware of this in myself.

I just finished writing my 'if I were a 3' segment, here's how I relate to the type I guess:



The Night's Queen said:


> *Type Three*
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the type I've been looking at lately, no reason not to bring up the stupid reason why, which was that I was suddenly really obsessed with the singer Dima Bilan and in addition to that realizing that there was something I really related to about him...not necessarily his Enneagram type but I think it's likely he's a 3 and this was one thing that made me think of it...
> 
> 
> The Night's Queen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really want to figure out Dima Bilan's type
> 
> Found this cover he did of one of my favorite songs in the world, didn't like it at first but then I realized it was the best thing in the world
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifzpyOl7Bus
> 
> Something about him though...it's very relatable, even though on a surface level we're not very similar I think, but I've been watching lots of videos of him today (he's one of the judges on The Voice) and there's just something about him that seems like 'oh we get each other', I mean obviously he doesn't know me but more even then other singers who I can relate to in lots of concrete ways I just feel this similarity in personality, not really sure how to explain
> 
> Only thing is that I sometimes confuse being attracted to someone with relating to them lol, or maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse and that's why I'm attracted to them, Bilan's weird to me because I always forget that I like him, forget he sings about love and emotions, I have this image of him as some shiny model who sings dumb songs about being popular or...oh, I think he's Eric Saade))
> 
> But actually he's really amazing and really relatable and kindred somehow
> 
> So I want to figure out his type partly for that reason
> 
> 
> 
> Plus someone suggested it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first thing about 3 is that I have always been focused on self-improvement - since I was very small I tended to write little lists for myself to for instance...become better at walking, for instance I'd walk around with books on my head, I'm not at home so I don't have access to any of these lists, but they were intense and thorough, divided into sections, for instance the 20 things I wanted to improve about appearance, 20 things I wanted to improve about my musical ability, etc. At my best I would have every minute of the day scheduled out for ways to improve myself e.g. I'd wake up and start making breakfast, wouldn't just wait for the tea kettle to boil, but spend that time doing little exercises, then I'd have breakfast with a book on my head and some improving book in my hands, that was the time that I would study languages for example, while appreciating the food to the best of my ability, I'd think about the orchards where the apples were raised, the wheat farmers who made the bread, try to be really grateful, I was really inspired by some passage in The Old Man and the Sea:
> 
> _Then he was sorry for the great fish that had nothing to eat and his determination to kill him never relaxed in his sorrow for him. How many people will he feed, he thought. But are they worthy to eat him? No, of course not. There is no one worthy of eating him from the manner of his behaviour and his great dignity. I do not understand these things, he thought. But it is good that we do not have to try to kill the sun or the moon or the stars. It is enough to live on the sea and kill our true brothers._
> 
> I think it was this, it was that I wanted to be worthy or at least to understand, it made me think that I never thought about where food had come from and...well, I don't eat meat lol but the labor an love that is put into it, I never think about that, the only person who is worthy of eating a fish is the person who caught the fish but...you should at least try to understand the fish, at least try to understand or remember the fisher. I don't think of myself as someone who values work, because to me work means something not real, which is manufactured but I value...whatever this is.
> 
> And I would...oh, for instance I'd record myself walking and such, don't do it anymore because it's too depressing lol but yeah
> 
> I am concerned with maximizing the resources I have in any given situation to improve myself and experience the world as fully as I can can. For instance when I'm in a new house or situation where there is a library I try to read the books in this library...I mean this seems obvious but I think the way I go about it is a little unusual, it feels to me that by being given opportunities I am being given an assignment to fulfill. I also feel a need to be the best at anything I do (I tell people I'm ok with being mediocre but...I'm not) in fact I generally feel that I already am the best lol and I have to prove it, even when I'm obviously not already the best :laughing: But playing board games for instance, I won't let people stop playing with me until I win, I want to win but I also want to improve, I'm always thinking about how can I improve, even when I have no energy or am in a terrible mood I still try to think of some way I can increase my value, have a whole stack of activities I can do while I'm waiting for a bus or want to 'waste' a few hours but still get something out of it.
> 
> And for instance...I'm very terrified of casinos, I'm sure I'd develop a gambling addiction, don't like video games either, I can get addicted to a false sense of achievement really quickly and be obsessed with reaching some arbitrary goal I've set...and then the next...few times I went to one of those pizza parlour arcades for birthday parties or whatever I'd end up spending the whole time at one game and I hated how that felt.
> 
> It is fairly important for me to be seen a certain way by other people, and even though I don't have much interest in money or social status knowing that other people do value this or...they don't either, but it's still something . . . it's something I still have 'valued' in the past, for example I always liked to tell people that my plan was to marry money as a teen even though it wasn't, always needed people to see me as wealthy. I always liked the idea of being 'above compliment', I had a bag that I thought was such high-quality that it was 'above compliment', recently it was thrown away in a hotel because 'they thought it was a garbage' :laughing: And I wanted to have a high-status job or better yet no job at all, always embarrassing for me to think that people think I don't have an endless store of money, always hope people see me as the first name in proper behavior. Always was inspired by my grandmother who really was that, she composed herself with perfect grace and etiquette that surely everyone in the room assumed that she really knew what to do in any situation...and she was a really lovely and good person. But I'm not like that all...something I strive for though (don't like to admit I do though, admitting to be trying to be that makes it not possible to be that)
> 
> Read endless etiquette books as a kid, would have paper dolls in difficult social situations to demonstrate how should they behave, so that any situation I was thrown into I would know exactly who to greet first and how to refer to them...I think I thought I'd be meeting more bishops, queens, and titled peoples than I actually do because I never know about other people and I wouldn't remember the other ones now anyways, so waste of time :laughing:
> 
> And - yes, I want to achieve something in my life, I like to perform also, my parents have a story about how when I was about 4 they took me to see a play and afterwards the cast asked me to come onstage (because I'd been so well-behaved in the audience roud and I just walked around it saying to myself, "I like it up here . . . I _like_ it up here". But I was always afraid to audition for roles in school and such, I was afraid people would think I thought I was good at acting. Never liked people to see me trying...anything.
> 
> But just in little things, I like to be the person doing something, for example I'm teaching now and...I really hate it when other people do a class I thought I was going to do.
> 
> I think there's more but my Internet place suddenly became a yoga studio and it's weird to be here now haha, sitting outside but I need to regroup and maybe find something to eat, this is enough for 3 I think. Feel like I'm missing something big that made 3 seem possible but I can't remember.
> 
> https://goo.gl/NjC5CW
Click to expand...


----------



## Dangerose

Described how I relate to every type here, some of them sucked because this is really boring lol but if anyone wants to look through and give thoughts that would be nice :cupcake:

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1069450-what-my-instincts.html

Main type poll here:

https://www.poll-maker.com/poll1081251x27C34e9B-45

edit: I'm also curious about the votes for 4w3 here! Haven't heard that as a suggestion before I think!


----------



## Krayfish

The Night's Queen said:


> Described how I relate to every type here, some of them sucked because this is really boring lol but if anyone wants to look through and give thoughts that would be nice :cupcake:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1069450-what-my-instincts.html
> 
> Main type poll here:
> 
> https://www.poll-maker.com/poll1081251x27C34e9B-45
> 
> edit: I'm also curious about the votes for 4w3 here! Haven't heard that as a suggestion before I think!


I'd read/skimmed through your paragraphs and I think that you are a 2w1 1w9 6w7. If not that, 4w3 1w2 6w7. While you seem to align yourself with 8 a bit, I don't see much evidence for that. I think you are being mislead by the 6 influence. Also, usually those who feel they are somewhere between 9 and 8 tend to actually be two because twos aren't pushovers nor fiery in an 8 sense. You definitely have 1 influence (I don't think it is your core), and you definitely have at least a degree of two influence. I am 100% certain you lead with a heart type, although whether this is 4 or two is a bit less certain. Your description of one sort of sounded four to me, so unless you are disintegrating that may be the better option.


----------



## Paradigm

@The Night's Queen

I didn't skim through or read anything but why did you/are you ruling out 2w3? 
Maybe a 2w3 with a 1w9 fix?

I'm somewhat busy this week (and weekend) so sorry for just popping in and out!


----------



## Dangerose

Krayfish said:


> I'd read/skimmed through your paragraphs and I think that you are a 2w1 1w9 6w7. If not that, 4w3 1w2 6w7. While you seem to align yourself with 8 a bit, I don't see much evidence for that. I think you are being mislead by the 6 influence. Also, usually those who feel they are somewhere between 9 and 8 tend to actually be two because twos aren't pushovers nor fiery in an 8 sense. You definitely have 1 influence (I don't think it is your core), and you definitely have at least a degree of two influence. I am 100% certain you lead with a heart type, although whether this is 4 or two is a bit less certain. Your description of one sort of sounded four to me, so unless you are disintegrating that may be the better option.


Thank you so much!
Out of curiosity why 6>7 for fix?
Wouldn't say I see myself between 9 and 8, all of the gut types have relatable and not-relatable parts for me, feel pretty much tied equally between them (but it's hard to see myself as a gut core for very long anyways). Find it hard to see myself as a core 8, wouldn't say I align myself with that type, core 1 seems possible but something doesn't seem to quite click, core 9 seems the most possible but I don't really understand how I would recognize 9ness in myself.
But 7 or 6 are things I consider for my core pretty frequently; in general it just comes down to the fact that I'm too emotional for these types, but I think I might give Type 2 too much power over emotions, like if I'm emotional at all about anything it must be a 2 thing and I know other people feel things too))



Paradigm said:


> @The Night's Queen
> 
> I didn't skim through or read anything but why did you/are you ruling out 2w3?
> Maybe a 2w3 with a 1w9 fix?
> 
> I'm somewhat busy this week (and weekend) so sorry for just popping in and out!


I didn't think I was 

I've always pretty much assumed 2w1 if 2, because I didn't think I seemed very 3ish at all, never thought much about 3, but getting suggestions of it was making me wonder if I hadn't given it a fair chance.

For some reason 3w2 seems better than 2w3 even though 2 seems better than 3, don't feel like I'm going about this the right way at all :laughing:


----------



## Darkbloom

@The Night's Queen why does 3w2 seem better than 2w3? :shocked:


----------



## Krayfish

The Night's Queen said:


> Thank you so much!
> Out of curiosity why 6>7 for fix?
> Wouldn't say I see myself between 9 and 8, all of the gut types have relatable and not-relatable parts for me, feel pretty much tied equally between them (but it's hard to see myself as a gut core for very long anyways). Find it hard to see myself as a core 8, wouldn't say I align myself with that type, core 1 seems possible but something doesn't seem to quite click, core 9 seems the most possible but I don't really understand how I would recognize 9ness in myself.
> But 7 or 6 are things I consider for my core pretty frequently; in general it just comes down to the fact that I'm too emotional for these types, but I think I might give Type 2 too much power over emotions, like if I'm emotional at all about anything it must be a 2 thing and I know other people feel things too))


When I read what you wrote, your voicing was kind of just more suggestive of 6 than 7. Still, while I don't usually trust gut instincts like that, I still feel as though 6w7 rather than 7w6 might account for you relating to 8 to some degree. 9w1 could work rather than 1w9 within your tritype, but I see a lot of 1 influence, more than 9 (maybe that could just be you being a 2w1 and a 9w1).


----------



## Dangerose

Amaranthine said:


> @The Night's Queen why does 3w2 seem better than 2w3? :shocked:


I don't know, maybe just because I'm not in the habit of thinking 2w3, but...2w3 has a very social-instinct feel to me I think in a way that I don't think I have, even if I am social-first it's not in a 2w3 way, but 3w2 seems a little more...also very social but I think it can be blatant about some social things the way I can be and also social in the not-deeply-involved way, more about the game than the participation, which I associate with 2w3

I mean I see you as 2w3 and you're not like that, but I think you're social-last and you also have something I don't have, like...I can see you leaning into 3, I don't think I could be a person leaning into 3 but leaning into 2 from 3 makes sense

I don't have a good way to explain it though, just my general feeling, 2w3 feels really odd for me

__________

Another thing, whenever I find some celebrity ridiculously attractive they turn out to be a 3w2, I realize that's a stupid thing to base typing off of but I gotta wonder if I'm not just attracted to my own type))



Krayfish said:


> When I read what you wrote, your voicing was kind of just more suggestive of 6 than 7. Still, while I don't usually trust gut instincts like that, I still feel as though 6w7 rather than 7w6 might account for you relating to 8 to some degree. 9w1 could work rather than 1w9 within your tritype, but I see a lot of 1 influence, more than 9 (maybe that could just be you being a 2w1 and a 9w1).


Ok, thanks)


----------



## owlet

@The Night's Queen I'm curious because I know people have said 3 for @Immolate, yet you're saying it's very socially focused which doesn't line up well with what I know of Immolate at least.


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> @*The Night's Queen* I'm curious because I know people have said 3 for @*Immolate*, yet you're saying it's very socially focused which doesn't line up well *with what I know of Immolate* at least.


(It's all been a lie.)


* *


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> @The Night's Queen I'm curious because I know people have said 3 for @Immolate, yet you're saying it's very socially focused which doesn't line up well with what I know of Immolate at least.


You guys know that the inside of my brain looks like this, right?










You overestimate my capability to just pass the red wire))

Yeah, I mean...I'm not necessarily saying 3 for Immolate, for me it's more of a striking new idea that I want to see play out.
The way I see 3 it can be directly social or it can be somewhat indirectly social, still I think some external focus on something, even if it's an internal external focus, like a mirror or recording device. vs 2 which I think is necessarily DIRECTLY social since it requires exchange of energy, 3 doesn't so much, more needs a flatline of image, isn't comfortable moving. Which I think matches Immolate?


----------



## Krayfish

WHO IS IN THE MOOD TO DESTROY MY LOGIC? With all the research I've done, I keep coming up with the tritypes 513 or 593 which directly contradict my mbti type (ENFP). I am mistyped, but I am not sure where I went wrong. Anyone got any ideas?


----------



## DOGSOUP

Krayfish said:


> WHO IS IN THE MOOD TO DESTROY MY LOGIC? With all the research I've done, I keep coming up with the tritypes 513 or 593 which directly contradict my mbti type (ENFP). I am mistyped, but I am not sure where I went wrong. Anyone got any ideas?


You do come across like E+F strongly, only makes more sense with a more "untypical" tritype, especially with all the head influence ...if that is even what you mean... but yeah I remember thinking you came across very Fe-ish to me on some aspects.

My type is open for debate too if anyone is willing to challenge it. Doubt I am 648 or 641, reactive types make sense but triple-reactive not so much. 649 maybe but 9 is a mystery... the more I think about the gut the less I can see it in myself.


----------



## Krayfish

DOGSOUP said:


> You do come across like E+F strongly, only makes more sense with a more "untypical" tritype, especially with all the head influence ...if that is even what you mean... but yeah I remember thinking you came across very Fe-ish to me on some aspects.


Interesting. Prior to that one thread that you did respond to (which is linked in my signature if anyone is curious), I was consistently typed as a Fe user. I also remember the reasoning that you used on the thread seemed very solid. I cannot see myself as a Fe dom, as I lack the opinion/decisiveness of a Je (I'm definitely an irrational in socionics). The problem was is that when I was typed, my Fe was consistently pointed out as well as my Ne which kinda left open 3 options: 1) A Ne grip as an ISFJ 2) A Ne-Fe loop (ESFJ or ENTP) or 3) A function misinterpretation (ENFP or INFJ). I kind of settled on ENFP to test things out and see if that worked better than any of the other things that I've typed (I can kind of see Tert Te but in all honestly if I use Fi am extremely Fi repression).


----------



## Dangerose

Anyone have any argument against me typing at 7? 

Here's a brief explanation, why I changed it at least (don't post quote situation-specific parts please)

The thing that always keeps me from typing at 7 is that I think I'm too emotional but I have a bad habit of assuming only 2s, 4s, 6s and sometimes 9s can have emotions and that the rest are like robots always, idk...99.9% sure I'm a feeler in MBTI so...maybe it's more about that anyways.


----------



## Paradigm

The Night's Queen said:


> I have a bad habit of assuming only 2s, 4s, 6s and sometimes 9s can have emotions and that the rest are like robots always, idk...99.9% sure I'm a feeler in MBTI so...maybe it's more about that anyways.


*watches my 8w9 dad have a tantrum*
*watches my 6w5 mom refuse to show anger / be passive-aggressive*
*watches 6w7 self be called apathetic*

...Huh.

:tongue:


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> *watches my 8w9 dad have a tantrum*
> *watches my 6w5 mom refuse to show anger / be passive-aggressive*
> *watches 6w7 self be called apathetic*
> 
> ...Huh.
> 
> :tongue:


Yeah, I'm not saying it's a good typing system haha)))

Though, I wasn't really thinking about anger as an emotion, I meant...soft squishy emotions)
I think I added 6 since this scene revolutionized the way I thought about them
Spoiler for violence/psychological disturbance

* *













Like "This man is obviously a 6 but he is SAD about his wife's death???"

I get that everyone is sad after their spouses die but this was relatable (I mean, I haven't had that situation so not like that but like 'oh I could/would feel that way') enough to change my thoughts about 6 on a gut level, now I think of them as emotional, idk)

Not just that, other things too, but...that's what I meant I guess by 'emotional', not sure how to explain it better, definitely not logical or correct at all though))


----------



## Eclipsed

@The Night's Queen

I've never talked to you personally, but I've never really seen any strong indicators of 7 in your posts. I think image type seems to be most correct, but head type would also be believable.

Regardless, if you do pursue the 7 typing, don't worry about having a lot of feelings. I definitely do. I'd advise you to focus on how you relate to fear of stagnation, deprivation, disconnect from Holy Plan, etc. Basically just the core things because the descriptions are kind of... terrible, to say the least.


----------



## Dangerose

Eclipsed said:


> @The Night's Queen
> 
> I've never talked to you personally, but I've never really seen any strong indicators of 7 in your posts. I think image type seems to be most correct, but head type would also be believable.
> 
> Regardless, if you do pursue the 7 typing, don't worry about having a lot of feelings. I definitely do. I'd advise you to focus on how you relate to fear of stagnation, deprivation, disconnect from Holy Plan, etc. Basically just the core things because the descriptions are kind of... terrible, to say the least.


 @Eclipsed, thanks, I'll keep that in mind)

_____________________

(not directed at you Eclipsed just in response to your post)

Holy Ideas are ridiculously hard to figure out if you relate to or not  Every one I read about I think 'hm, yeah, that sounds plausible that I'm disconnected from that' but it's halfway because I don't really understand it, not on a practical level at least :laughing:

Definitely relate to fear of stagnation a lot, I do find myself stagnating at times and...I can't stay there, it's like swimming in a stagnant pool...I talk/think about it a lot, how I can feel like life is passing me by, how I don't know where the music's playing, how my life can feel like a closed circuit and I start to feel suffocated, I can't stay in one place for long, when I am stagnating generally I do the most wasteful, ridiculous things to distract myself, make it feel like I'm going somewhere, at home I'll end up driving and driving in the countryside, really I love driving but it's not a productive hobby haha, but it creates the illusion of freedom/movement, think that's why I do that a lot

And this is my song, relate a lot:










*hovels haha

or...relate to this too, though I know Bruce Springsteen is a 6...this song in general but for me this line summarizes why:










This and "There's something happening somewhere, I just know there is" :crying:
"Sitting around getting older, there's a joke here somewhere and it's on me"
etc.

Fear of deprivation too, though I know that's also a 2 trait I know...but I often feel like, if I can't have _everything I want_ there's no point in having _anything_, not sure how to talk about this right now though.

Sorry for weirdly quoting you in the middle of this long irritating post Daeva, no need to respond or read or anything, just wanted to give credit/not talk behind back but you wrote this on the Controversial Opinions thread:



Daeva said:


> *Your triggers are your guides.*


Been thinking about that since then, and I have to say that feeling trapped is probably my biggest 'trigger' if I'm interpretating that word correctly, i.e. it makes me snap and act like a strange crazy person. That and feeling bored...and not just average 'waiting at the DMV' bored, I plan for that lol, but existentially bored...(people never understand what I mean when I say that I'm bored, I don't just mean that I'm not being entertained even though that is what is but it's a whole different level of emotion, it's very much like being trapped I guess)

I mean, literally being trapped makes me upset obviously, maybe I deal with it less well than other people, for example I got locked into my apartment and I tried to tear down the (as I discovered) metal door, was remembering what a horror I was as a child and often the thing that triggered it was being sent to my room, wouldn't stay put, even though actually I liked being in my room lol 

Also people breathing down my neck or setting up situations where I have to do everything through them, I mentioned it somewhere on this website that it really freaked me out when my supervisor at work sent me this message:



> You should have better comunication with me. I am your friend. It is something is happening i need to be the first person aftet your thougth to know.


I mean obviously I didn't have to and didn't make her the first person after my thoughts to know but just the concept and the expectation that she would be that person (as if there could be any such person at this point in my life) really bothered me, came close to quitting my job lol, luckily I didn't (would have been an obviously terrible decision for a petty reason but that's what I mean, I'm weird about that kind of thing)

The only thing is, 2 has that 'Holy Freedom' trap and idk what that's supposed to look like. 

Another thing, and I just noticed it, but I always do the thing I wanted to do in the first place, I tell people I'll do it their way and I really think I will but when the time comes to it, I always end up following my original plan, something will 'go wrong' and I'll have to do it my way, it's not on purpose but it's constant, for example sometimes people will try to go somewhere with me where I wanted to go alone and I'll end up changing my plans last minute for some stupid reason I really believe in, in the moment, and then later I look back and I'm just happy because I got to go alone and...yeah

But 2 triggers, idk, being rejected - well, I don't really put myself into situations where I can be rejected - but I think I deal with that in a more average way than with being trapped, being trapped makes me like an animal ready to chew off its own leg, being rejected just makes me sad...


----------



## Dangerose

However, don't relate to this song, and Shakira's even supposed to be a 2  But it's too 7 for me






_Broke my heart 
Down the road 
Spend the weekend 
Sewing the pieces back on 

Crayons and dolls pass me by 
Walking gets too boring 
When you learn how to fly 

Not the homecoming kind nooo I want to go home
Take the top off 
And who knows what you might find 

Won't confess all my sins your whole Confession is invalid if you leave out sins...and if you're another person you should know the worst things about me too 
You can bet I'll try it 
But I can't always win ?

'Cause I'm a gypsy sure
But are you coming with me? sure, but if I ask this question I expect a real answer
I might steal your clothes 
And wear them if they fit me I would not do this
I never made agreements No I like agreements when it's about important things
Just like a gypsy 
And I won't back down 
'Cause life's already hurt me these concepts are not related to me
And I won't cry 
I'm too young to die 
If you're gonna quit me I will certainly cry if you quit me
'Cause I'm a gypsy 

I can't hide 
what I've done 
Scars remind me 
Of just how far that I've come no they remind me of how ugly my skin looks now lol
To whom it may concern 
Only run with scissors 
When you want to get hurt or if you are in a hurry to cut something

I said hey you 
You're no fool 
If you say 'NO' Ok, yes, you would be a fool to go with me, but this phrasing is unrelatable
Ain't it just the way life goes? Not necessarily, people form solid relationships all the time
People fear what they don't know good reason to get to know each other
Come along for the ride (Oh yeah) No, come along for me, the ride is just a bonus
_

Other 7ish thing about me though, don't feel very responsible, was watching Brooklyn Nine Nine and there was this line:

_The reason you're so chill is because you have everyone cleaning up your messes for you._

Line sorta stung, I don't know if people have said that to me directly but it's how I feel a lot, I am a chill person, never stressed, always telling people the same but...I'm never doing real work or contributing that much, and people really are always cleaning up after me, I don't know honestly how to navigate to the place where I'm a person cleaning up other people's messes, it never happens though...


----------



## Paradigm

The Night's Queen said:


> Yeah, I'm not saying it's a good typing system haha)))
> Though, I wasn't really thinking about anger as an emotion, I meant...soft squishy emotions)


Lol don't worry, I knew what you meant but it was funny to me and I just felt like making a joke about it 

FWIW I tend to rationalize this type of thing by thinking "everyone feels these emotions, just not everyone shows them." And that's how I am: I may be very sad, but I'm not the type to cry and whatnot. Even being depressed, I rarely cry; I'm more the ahedonistic type. 

As for 7, the best example I have is my sister (7w6 SO/SP, 7w6-1w2-3w4), and I could easily fall into the same trap you did: that she lacks squishy emotions. But for her (specifically her), it's more like she keeps moving to avoid feeling. And that's how she copes. Though we're not close, so I can't get much deeper than that in my description.

Another example I have is a close friend (also 7w6 SO/SP**, but different "flavor," and 7w6-9w8-4w3*)... I can tell when something is bothering him when he starts _complaining_ about meaningless stuff. That's not normal for him, so it means something is upsetting him; it signals when I need to ask him "Are you okay?" He's the more introspective type so he can usually pinpoint everything and what to do about it, but the point is he does have squishy emotions and he has tells for them.
*Don't make the mistake of thinking the 4 fix facilitates emotional depth or awareness.
**(EDIT: Actually I just realized he might be SP/SO)

So yeah, 7 can be squishy. That being said, idk if I buy 7 for you, but that's basically just... Yeah I have no reasons to say why or why not, sorry. IIRC you know what I mean, you've said similar here; I imagine it's Ni


----------



## Dangerose

@Paradigm thanks for your examples and opinion, very helpful :teapot:


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I was tagged here a while back, and asked about "why the sexual instinct is wet" (lol)

Anyways, I don't know how to say it. I have always imagined it being piercing and bleeding. I don't think I can explain very well why I feel like the energy of SX is "wet," specially since I have recently been feeling depressed - I don't know how to explain it. 
@*The Night's Queen*, maybe you are too deep into the enneagram that's why you keep seeing all these different types but - I just wanted to provide my impression of you on here. Hope it helps. You are constantly putting on an "image" of something beautiful on here, including your avatar, your signature, your name etc. I do believe the heart types are very invested in creating that beauty (in order to seek the love they want and offset shame). Specially for 2 and 4 since they have a line to each other, there tends to be an element of similarity between them. 

You are always thanking people, and being nice which tells me you want people to feel appreciated, and you want them to like you for treating them that kindly. In that sense, it's very other-centered. I am not that nice, I value my own opinion of who I am over someone else's...very stubborn about my individuality. But there's a fluidity and yes receptiveness to you. 

And another comment on the image thing - even though we literally just all interacting on here through each other's projections or images of who they are, some people are very much invested in their image, and I notice it. Not always image types of course, but it's something I have always felt intuitively. You are _heavily _invested in your image. So a head type over a heart type doesn't make sense to me for you.


----------



## Krayfish

The Night's Queen said:


> Anyone have any argument against me typing at 7?
> 
> Here's a brief explanation, why I changed it at least (don't post quote situation-specific parts please)
> 
> The thing that always keeps me from typing at 7 is that I think I'm too emotional but I have a bad habit of assuming only 2s, 4s, 6s and sometimes 9s can have emotions and that the rest are like robots always, idk...99.9% sure I'm a feeler in MBTI so...maybe it's more about that anyways.


My only argument would be that you seem like a heart type based on what I've seen you write. I could see 7 being in your tritype, but I don't think your a seven core (although you'd probably know yourself better than I so take my opinion as a grain of salt)


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Rose for a Heart said:


> I was tagged here a while back, and asked about "why the sexual instinct is wet" (lol)
> 
> Anyways, I don't know how to say it. I have always imagined it being piercing and bleeding. I don't think I can explain very well why I feel like the energy of SX is "wet," specially since I have recently been feeling depressed - I don't know how to explain it.


I agree.

When I think of something being wet, I think of something which has a sense of depth and vastness to it, coupled with mystery and rippling change spreading outward. It is a surging deep within of transformations to come, yet at the same time a sort of inexorable "sleepiness". The tide washes in and out every day, but it does so because it has done so before. If the water were to ever stop moving, and there was nothing within it that is also moving, no forces acting upon it (such as gravity)...would it move? I think not, for in essence it is reactive in nature. It is the Fire that brings movement, Earth which supports us, and Air that moves at all times...but water is the force that is no force, that moves yet lies still.

In this way, I think of wetness as a sort of inertia, hard to start and hard to stop. All changes flow outward, and the water reinforces the water - the flow is stronger the more water there is. It whirls and flows over itself, forward and backward, displacing its own essence and yet somehow remaining what it is. It is the unchanging change, the ultimate paradox. The result remains, yet each individual part is continuously being displaced. There is no internal solidity to it, no earthiness within...only the supports below provide that. As I see it, wetness is a sense of togetherness that flows into things new and old, changing and yet not changing, and in this way infinitely vast and infinitely wise. It is cold and yet always present, as ready to welcome as it is to curse.

Blood, especially, represents wetness. For what is bleeding, but the flowing outward of what lies within? To roll over that which is in the world, to coat it in oneself and conjoin with it, this is the true nirvana. To blur the boundaries of what is "me" and "not me" is profoundly "wet".

Water is a force of destruction as well. Water pierces all the tiniest weaknesses, sensing cracks in defenses, and washes over them, widening them in time. The pressure is unending, inexorable. It's main ally is time and patience. The ocean knows no despair, no anguish, and no regret. It knows only existence, and in existing, perseverance.

To hold one close and allow them to drift within the infinite vastness within, to dwell with them in closeness for now and for all time, to allow them into this space where peace lasts only until the next ripple in the pond....ahh, sublime passion. To be stirred in such a manner is bliss, at least until the next change. <3


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The Night's Queen said:


> Can you elaborate on the bold? Do you mean in myself or in others? I'm not sure I'm aware of this in myself.
> 
> I just finished writing my 'if I were a 3' segment, here's how I relate to the type I guess:


EDIT: For clarity: I ONLY read the post I am responding to, when I wrote this. I didn't want to factor other people's opinions into my response. That can happen later. 

EDIT2: Ignore my own type. I don't know what the hell I am, I change it every time I go back to thinking it through for Enneagram. These are just my musings, probably not too helpful either.

So, I read through that (It wouldn't quote for some reason?) and I came away from it feeling "Wow. This is pretty different from me." You have a very strong work ethic and focus on work that is just...amazing, really. I would go insane trying to put myself through the hell you are describing. Although I imagine you didn't consider it a hell. 

One thing I noted was a strong emphasis on experiencing the world as fully as you can; you even used those exact words. This does not seem image focused to me, it seems head focused. You don't want to miss out moreso than you want to appear well-traveled and well-educated. It seems almost Seven to me, not so much Three. It kinda comes across as Extroverted Perception, too. But then, most everyone says that Seven and Extroverted Perception are kinda similar, so...*rolleyes*

In particular, this conceptualizing an opportunity not as an opportunity, but as an assignment...that seems very Competency Triad in general. By contrast, my logic is "This opportunity is here, sure, but whether or not it is worth the time will vary, since more opportunities shall come along in time". I'm more worried about whether the experience is worth it than I am about wanting to try it and see. I am also wanting to make sure that the experience isn't going to wreck something else I care for. 

A good example. Spending money to go on a trip and in so doing...I don't pay rent...so then I can't keep my job because I can't keep clean and I can't eat right so I wind up desperate and lost again, and then needing a rescue. Again. Seems like I'm always getting rescued because I can't handle my own problems. What the hell am I worth to anyone if I am another homeless dude on the street? Worse. At what point would I be so desperate I go against everything I stand for? Desperation leads to loss, loss of self above all. I know. I've been there.

A friend of mine always says "I'll try everything once". When he says it, he means EVERYthing (not ANYthing, like the quote usually goes). He states it like a goal, like a life destination, and not like general open-mindedness. If anything, he approaches it close-mindedly - you cannot convince him an experience is bad until he experiences it, including some real dumb things (In my opinion) like intentionally letting his friends kick him as hard as they can right in his balls.

His devotion to experience for the sake of not missing out on anything - and proving he is up to anything someone else can do - is sort of like my guidepost to pointing at Seven, whether or not that is really very accurate. So what I get from you is...sorta-kinda Sevenish but not like him in that regard. Maybe what I am seeing from you is 7w6 to his 7w8? I'm not sure.

Perhaps what hits me most that I don't see as Three from what you say here is the talk about board and video games. You won't let people leave until you win a game. You won't play video games because you set your own goals and then bask in the sensation of achieving them. For Three, though, it is the image that counts. It isn't about FEELing like you accomplished something, it is about whether others think that you are accomplishing things. Dishonesty can enter the picture here. Your own focus is on what you get you of the experience, and that, to me, screams Seven.

But hey, take it with a grain of salt, yeah? I'm sure there are plenty of people more qualified than I that can help you out, which would matter if you are Three. Reputation is important, right? 

BTW, I am seeing tons of image focus in what you wrote here, but something I note about it is that your image concerns are usually based around what you want to become, what you could be, and they aren't sticking around and staying the same. You don't appear to be oriented at the goal of achieving some kind of Perfection like One, or achieving some kind of Ideal Self like Three...I see you as wanting to Be Everything to Everyone, and to do that you gotta Be Capable of Everything. That's more 2-7-8 IMO.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I agree.
> 
> When I think of something being wet, I think of something which has a sense of depth and vastness to it, coupled with mystery and rippling change spreading outward. It is a surging deep within of transformations to come, yet at the same time a sort of inexorable "sleepiness". The tide washes in and out every day, but it does so because it has done so before. If the water were to ever stop moving, and there was nothing within it that is also moving, no forces acting upon it (such as gravity)...would it move? I think not, for in essence it is reactive in nature. It is the Fire that brings movement, Earth which supports us, and Air that moves at all times...but water is the force that is no force, that moves yet lies still.


This stuff also kinda makes me think about 9 lol


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Distortions said:


> This stuff also kinda makes me think about 9 lol


No arguments from me. I see the Withdrawn Triad as watery in very vague terms. I see the Reactive triad as fiery. Etc. Element comparisons come easily, but I don't feel like listing 'em all out. La.


Random sharing. You ever get the urge to tell someone "Oh, just stop" right after they compliment you, as you privately think "no, you are wrong, I am really not"? I keep catching myself doing this. *heavy sigh*


----------



## Tad Cooper

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> No arguments from me. I see the Withdrawn Triad as watery in very vague terms. I see the Reactive triad as fiery. Etc. Element comparisons come easily, but I don't feel like listing 'em all out. La.
> 
> 
> Random sharing. You ever get the urge to tell someone "Oh, just stop" right after they compliment you, as you privately think "no, you are wrong, I am really not"? I keep catching myself doing this. *heavy sigh*


I tend to say "No Im not really..." and they take it as me being humble...


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Tad Cooper said:


> I tend to say "No Im not really..." and they take it as me being humble...


I get that too...I also get people who are like weirdly protective of their view of me, too. Like I said "I'm an asshole, I know" a few weeks ago to a coworker and he said "Nah...man, you are NOT an asshole, you are too nice" and refused to even consider that I could be, or what I meant by it. I let it go, but I do get these thoughts. I don't want to internalize other people's good views of me.

Its like once people decide something is cool about you, they refuse to change that view. Which is weird, to me. My view on things changes as soon as I think of some new thing about the thing.

Does it bother you that people think you are being humble?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I get that too...I also get people who are like weirdly protective of their view of me, too. Like I said "I'm an asshole, I know" a few weeks ago to a coworker and he said "Nah...man, you are NOT an asshole, you are too nice" and refused to even consider that I could be, or what I meant by it. I let it go, but I do get these thoughts. I don't want to internalize other people's good views of me.
> 
> Its like once people decide something is cool about you, they refuse to change that view. Which is weird, to me. My view on things changes as soon as I think of some new thing about the thing.
> 
> Does it bother you that people think you are being humble?


Yeah that's true! Like people find something about me, good or bad, and then wont shift from that view unless I basically bash the point home really hard!
My views change a lot too - very open to changing my views because otherwise how do you adapt? If things change and you pretend they havent or ignore it then thats no good...
Ehhh, not so much, I just find it confusing - why would you insist I'm X way when I can give countless examples of me not being X way? I might be X sometimes, but no one is one way all the time - people are all over the place!


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> maybe you are too deep into the enneagram that's why you keep seeing all these different types but - I just wanted to provide my impression of you on here. Hope it helps. You are constantly putting on an "image" of something beautiful on here, including your avatar, your signature, your name etc. I do believe the heart types are very invested in creating that beauty (in order to seek the love they want and offset shame). Specially for 2 and 4 since they have a line to each other, there tends to be an element of similarity between them.


Thanks)
Not trying to be annoying but couldn't that be Six as well...Beauty/Strength?
Always idolized Beauty a lot, especially in the pretty triangle of Beauty - Truth - Goodness, I use this as my quote on all the places where you're supposed to put some personal quote:

Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty
That is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know



> You are always thanking people, and being nice which tells me you want people to feel appreciated, and you want them to like you for treating them that kindly. In that sense, it's very other-centered. I am not that nice, I value my own opinion of who I am over someone else's...very stubborn about my individuality. But there's a fluidity and yes receptiveness to you.


Thanks, though...idk, my relationship with the 'thank' button isn't really about wanting them to feel appreciated, more my way of communicating that I read the message and thought it was worth my time reading or there was something I liked in it...used to be really picky about which messages I thanked and now I'm a thanking slut haha
just nitpicking though))



> And another comment on the image thing - even though we literally just all interacting on here through each other's projections or images of who they are, some people are very much invested in their image, and I notice it. Not always image types of course, but it's something I have always felt intuitively. You are _heavily _invested in your image. So a head type over a heart type doesn't make sense to me for you.



Promise I won't get mad or anything but you and @owlet have mentioned this a lot, I'm not sure that I see it, can you expand on what you mean?



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> EDIT: For clarity: I ONLY read the post I am responding to, when I wrote this. I didn't want to factor other people's opinions into my response. That can happen later.
> 
> EDIT2: Ignore my own type. I don't know what the hell I am, I change it every time I go back to thinking it through for Enneagram. These are just my musings, probably not too helpful either.


Thanks so much for reading and giving feedback!
btw when I respond to messages about my type I'm just giving my thoughts, no one is required to keep going with it for any amount of time, I can write a lot, it's not really focused anywhere)
But I am curious Lord Fenix if you have any opinion on my Socionics type at all? I know you have a lot of good Socionics insight and if you even just have a vibe about my Socionics type I'd like to hear it 



> So, I read through that (It wouldn't quote for some reason?) and I came away from it feeling "Wow. This is pretty different from me." You have a very strong work ethic and focus on work that is just...amazing, really. I would go insane trying to put myself through the hell you are describing. Although I imagine you didn't consider it a hell.


Ohhhh, I think this is the first time I've heard this about myself :cupcake:
wouldn't say it's wrong though, don't think I have a classically good work ethic since I'm usually focused on my own goals, I think it's always been true for me that I can do something very well if I chose it myself and will put all my energy behind that thing, but it's really hard for me to achieve something that is merely expected of me.
I mean, you should want me to work for you, because I'll do a good job, but I'm almost incapable of doing something I consider jumping through hoops unless I'm really really focused on the goal and understand that this is the only way of getting there...this makes me have not-typically-good-work-ethic...in school for instance I just wouldn't do the assignments I didn't see any point in doing, assignments I decided to do well were like works of art lol (once I watched a documentary about Chinese schools and there was a thing about how Chinese students always tried to make their homework worthy of being hung on the wall so I always tried for that), but I'd also assign myself ridiculous extra assignments, like we were reading Beowulf in English and 10 pages were assigned and I wrote in my planner 'learn fundamentals of Old English grammar and read 10 pages of Beowulf in modern and old English!'



> One thing I noted was a strong emphasis on experiencing the world as fully as you can; you even used those exact words. This does not seem image focused to me, it seems head focused. You don't want to miss out moreso than you want to appear well-traveled and well-educated. It seems almost Seven to me, not so much Three. It kinda comes across as Extroverted Perception, too. But then, most everyone says that Seven and Extroverted Perception are kinda similar, so...*rolleyes*


Thanks, I'd agree with this when it comes to myself. 
One of my mottos - 'no song unsung, no wine untasted' (from Les Mis). I like that, when I was 12 or 13 I had a character called Cassia Wanderer in a little story I was writing, she had some sort of vocation to touch her feet on every scrap of land, I mean it was supposed to work out naturally, she didn't walk through fields scraping her feet against everything, but...yeah, not sure how to phrase it, I think about that a lot though.



> In particular, this conceptualizing an opportunity not as an opportunity, but as an assignment...that seems very Competency Triad in general. By contrast, my logic is "This opportunity is here, sure, but whether or not it is worth the time will vary, since more opportunities shall come along in time". I'm more worried about whether the experience is worth it than I am about wanting to try it and see. I am also wanting to make sure that the experience isn't going to wreck something else I care for.
> 
> A good example. Spending money to go on a trip and in so doing...I don't pay rent...so then I can't keep my job because I can't keep clean and I can't eat right so I wind up desperate and lost again, and then needing a rescue. Again. Seems like I'm always getting rescued because I can't handle my own problems. What the hell am I worth to anyone if I am another homeless dude on the street? Worse. At what point would I be so desperate I go against everything I stand for? Desperation leads to loss, loss of self above all. I know. I've been there.


Well I mean...I like to think at least that I have some grasp on reality and won't spend all my savings on one opportunity...I mean, too many roads diverge in life every day, can't take every one, gotta take the one that will reap the most, and...it's not obvious always what that will be.

But I'll also say, I tend to have a somewhat limited grasp on consequence...well I understand it in theory and I think I'm good at taking the consequences of my actions...too good, maybe, there's usually a point where I know I'm going to do something regardless of consequences, but the present and future seem too divorced, and then, the present and past, I can think to myself 'if you hadn't insisted on taking this mode of transportation then none of this disaster would have happened', but I also tend to be too faithful that things are working out for the best, that Fate's on my side, like something goes wrong and I think 'oh, well, of course this sucks now but probably if this thing didn't go wrong I wouldn't know x for the future, or, you know, if I didn't turn right here I wouldn't have tripped in that puddle, had to walk barefoot, stepped on a nail, got tetanus, had to see the doctor, see flyer in doctor's office for some concert, go to concert, meet the love of my life' (this never happened lol but that kind of thing, hard for me to say empirically to say something was a mistake in the moment because I'm always still expecting there was some good reason for it)



> A friend of mine always says "I'll try everything once". When he says it, he means EVERYthing (not ANYthing, like the quote usually goes). He states it like a goal, like a life destination, and not like general open-mindedness. If anything, he approaches it close-mindedly - you cannot convince him an experience is bad until he experiences it, including some real dumb things (In my opinion) like intentionally letting his friends kick him as hard as they can right in his balls.


Yeah, I'm on board with this.
Well, maybe not the last part))
Though I used to get sad about things like...I'll never know what it feels to be guillotined)) Unless I happen to die that way))
Always thought if I had some sort of Groundhog Day scenario, I'd try out every way of getting killed to see how it was.



> His devotion to experience for the sake of not missing out on anything - and proving he is up to anything someone else can do - is sort of like my guidepost to pointing at Seven, whether or not that is really very accurate. So what I get from you is...sorta-kinda Sevenish but not like him in that regard. Maybe what I am seeing from you is 7w6 to his 7w8? I'm not sure.
> 
> Perhaps what hits me most that I don't see as Three from what you say here is the talk about board and video games. You won't let people leave until you win a game. You won't play video games because you set your own goals and then bask in the sensation of achieving them. For Three, though, it is the image that counts. It isn't about FEELing like you accomplished something, it is about whether others think that you are accomplishing things. Dishonesty can enter the picture here. Your own focus is on what you get you of the experience, and that, to me, screams Seven.


This is true, thanks



> But hey, take it with a grain of salt, yeah? I'm sure there are plenty of people more qualified than I that can help you out, which would matter if you are Three. Reputation is important, right?
> 
> BTW, I am seeing tons of image focus in what you wrote here, but something I note about it is that your image concerns are usually based around what you want to become, what you could be, and they aren't sticking around and staying the same. You don't appear to be oriented at the goal of achieving some kind of Perfection like One, or achieving some kind of Ideal Self like Three...I see you as wanting to Be Everything to Everyone, and to do that you gotta Be Capable of Everything. That's more 2-7-8 IMO.


Well - I do want to achieve some sort of perfection) And be my perfect self)
I think I'd rather be Everything to Someone than Everything to Everyone, I mean it's a different kind of goal but I'm always thinking in terms of, I want to be perfect when I meet the love of my life, I want to be like...the Perfect Princess, which I don't mean in the sense of spoiled and such but just an archetype of grace and beauty, like:










Not sure how to explain exactly what I mean though.


----------



## Dangerose

Tad Cooper said:


> I tend to say "No Im not really..." and they take it as me being humble...





Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Does it bother you that people think you are being humble?


Not so related, just was reminded of a scenario, I was in Russia once with some people who did not speak Russian...I started off telling them like "I speak Russian, but not perfectly, maybe not fluently, I'm still learning..." and one girl insisted I was being humble and that actually I spoke perfect Russian, gave me a bunch of lectures about how false humility is just pride, seemed genuinely annoyed that I was underselling my Russian skills, then when we went out in the town they would expect me to translate and sometimes I couldn't do it perfectly, either I wouldn't know some words or couldn't catch something or the girl would be talking to me at the same time someone else was talking to me (asking like 'what are they saying? have you asked them this? why aren't you telling me what they're saying?), wasn't a professional translator in any capacity so that was really confusing, can't hear two people talking in two languages at once while also translating, anyways then she got really mad at me for not having perfect Russian and for having lied and oversold my Russian skills :frustrating::frustrating::frustrating:

and then assumed I couldn't speak ANY Russian, wouldn't let me translate ANYTHING, for example we were in Moscow going to the Red Square and I was 'leading the way' and there are all these obvious signs reading 'Red Square' with blatant arrows which we were following, pointed out all the signs and said that I was certain we were going the right way, but she asked me every time 'are you sure?' and then decided I didn't know what I was talking about, asked like four people on the 10-minute walk, all of them said in broken English that yes the Red Square was that direction, it was deeply annoying


----------



## Rose for a Heart

The Night's Queen said:


> Thanks)
> Not trying to be annoying but couldn't that be Six as well...Beauty/Strength?


Nah, a head type wouldn't nearly be as invested in image as you are. And I have known an SX 6, which is what the whole "beauty/strength" thing is associated with, and I can see that for him. But the first thing you will notice about him is his armor of skepticism. You on the other hand pay enormous attention to how you come across socially, tend to like "proper and graceful" thing (like that GIF down there. And also your fascination with Romanticism in poetry, if I remember correctly lol). Anyways, a 6 is still a head type first, while 2 is an image type. The "beauty" you use in your image has nothing to do with strength either, so there's no such dichotomy in you from what I have seen. 

The 6 that I had mentioned earlier on the other hand, could come across as beautiful (not despite, but because of his dark, brooding, insecure and passionate side) and at the same time embody "strength" (because of his armor of skepticism, his need to stay in control etc.). I don't really see that dichotomy for you. 



> Thanks, though...idk, my relationship with the 'thank' button isn't really about wanting them to feel appreciated, more my way of communicating that I read the message and thought it was worth my time reading or there was something I liked in it...used to be really picky about which messages I thanked and now I'm a thanking slut haha
> just nitpicking though))


oh I was talking about your responses to other people, but over-thanking is another aspect of the same thing yeah, haha. You definitely go out of your way to interact with others and make them appreciate you. 



> Promise I won't get mad or anything but you and @*owlet* have mentioned this a lot, I'm not sure that I see it, can you expand on what you mean?


Which part?


----------



## Dangerose

@Rose for a Heart my extreme focus on image)

Thanks though for your comparison, helpful) I agree I don't come off that way)
Though specially I was a child I was quite focused on strength, literal physical strength, for example I was in some running competition and I remember they had to pull me off the field because I was running for so long, all the people in my grade (2nd?) had dropped out, I wanted to outrun the 6th graders))

And so forth, always wanted to be the strongest, was ready to prove to literally everyone that I was, now...I've gotten physically weak lol but in the back of my mind I always think I'll win any competition, it's really stupid because I can barely do ten push-ups but I'm never scared of other people physically, I always think 'oh but I'd definitely beat him in a fight' even though like...my little brother is stronger than me, but I still see myself for some reason as stronger than everyone around me, I'm way too confident in the power of sheer willpower, and yeah idk

But I am really fear-focused too, posted this on the 2 thread...

_Ear has some problem, can't hear in one ear, think it has water in it but there's a lot of pressure in it, but I'm afraid it's either ruptured or going to rupture on the plane tomorrow
But honestly I'm more afraid of going to the doctor than my eardrum bursting, haven't been to the doctor for years, mostly because I'm...scared of what the doctor's going to say to me?
Is that 6?

edit: also because I pride myself on not going to the doctor 
But more it's that I'm scared
Always kinda wish I had someone around who would force me to go tbh_

This is typical of me, went to the doctor once in the past 7 years or something because I was wearing a corset and started having chest pains, thought I was maybe having a heart attack, actually it was heartburn I guess, I will overreact to things and be certain I'm going to die but still won't go to the doctor, some other things like that too.


----------



## star tripper

@The Night's Queen I know you didn't ask me and I'm just coming out of nowhere, but I think you're thinking way too hard, and I don't mean in an overly analytical sense. What I mean is you're indiscriminately throwing data about your life to the fore saying, "Well this is more 7-like than 2-like but could this also be 6?" And it's confusing you. It would confuse anyone honestly. You're thinking yourself into circles. I know you know this, but remember we have all the types in ourselves, so you might do something 9-like or 3-like. I had a really bone-chilling 1 moment this past weekend that has had me reeling. I think you need to only focus on data that _matters_ which is easier said than done seeing as you first need to discern what data matters and what doesn't, which is a matter of personal introspection (I think this forum might be adding to the confusion). Just remember enneagram won't explain everything about your personality.


----------



## Dangerose

@star tripper thanks, it's possible you're right)


----------



## Tad Cooper

The Night's Queen said:


> Not so related, just was reminded of a scenario, I was in Russia once with some people who did not speak Russian...I started off telling them like "I speak Russian, but not perfectly, maybe not fluently, I'm still learning..." and one girl insisted I was being humble and that actually I spoke perfect Russian, gave me a bunch of lectures about how false humility is just pride, seemed genuinely annoyed that I was underselling my Russian skills, then when we went out in the town they would expect me to translate and sometimes I couldn't do it perfectly, either I wouldn't know some words or couldn't catch something or the girl would be talking to me at the same time someone else was talking to me (asking like 'what are they saying? have you asked them this? why aren't you telling me what they're saying?), wasn't a professional translator in any capacity so that was really confusing, can't hear two people talking in two languages at once while also translating, anyways then she got really mad at me for not having perfect Russian and for having lied and oversold my Russian skills :frustrating::frustrating::frustrating:
> 
> and then assumed I couldn't speak ANY Russian, wouldn't let me translate ANYTHING, for example we were in Moscow going to the Red Square and I was 'leading the way' and there are all these obvious signs reading 'Red Square' with blatant arrows which we were following, pointed out all the signs and said that I was certain we were going the right way, but she asked me every time 'are you sure?' and then decided I didn't know what I was talking about, asked like four people on the 10-minute walk, all of them said in broken English that yes the Red Square was that direction, it was deeply annoying


Yeah that'd annoy me too....couldn't you just go off and walk round yourself or were you a group?
I tend to never offer to do anything like that if I can help it (I hate people relying on me, means I cant go off and do my own thing and I feel responsible for them!) Though sometimes my good mood gets the better of me and I offer to do loads of things and then am so filled with regret...


----------



## Dangerose

Tad Cooper said:


> Yeah that'd annoy me too....couldn't you just go off and walk round yourself or were you a group?
> I tend to never offer to do anything like that if I can help it (I hate people relying on me, means I cant go off and do my own thing and I feel responsible for them!) Though sometimes my good mood gets the better of me and I offer to do loads of things and then am so filled with regret...


Ehhh, it was expected we'd stay together, I was pretty young then and they were older and it was with a program so it would've created problems if I tried to wander off, plus I do usually like translating and such, it was a weird social situation, everything I did made everything worse.

Worst people to travel with though, we were in Moscow, a famous, important city for 3 days and once they saw the Red Square they were done and just wanted to go to bars and clubs (like they have everywhere in the world), luckily it wasn't my only chance to go there.


----------



## Way Farer

So far I have posted two collages and filled out a questionnaire on the What's my type? thread. The feedback I have gotten combined with what I believe, I think I'm either an 8 or a 9. I'm leaning more toward 9. What do you guys think? 

Also, @Rose for a Heart , you said that the answers on my questionnaire seemed like type 6 to you. Could you let me know your reasoning?


----------



## Temizzle

Way Farer said:


> So far I have posted two collages and filled out a questionnaire on the What's my type? thread. The feedback I have gotten combined with what I believe, I think I'm either an 8 or a 9. I'm leaning more toward 9. What do you guys think?
> 
> Also, @Rose for a Heart , you said that the answers on my questionnaire seemed like type 6 to you. Could you let me know your reasoning?


What makes you think you are a 9 and not an 8? Why do you even think you might be an 8?


----------



## Dangerose

Way Farer said:


> So far I have posted two collages and filled out a questionnaire on the What's my type? thread. The feedback I have gotten combined with what I believe, I think I'm either an 8 or a 9. I'm leaning more toward 9. What do you guys think?
> 
> Also, @Rose for a Heart , you said that the answers on my questionnaire seemed like type 6 to you. Could you let me know your reasoning?


Is this . . . is this your collage?










(I'm extremely tired so maybe I missed something or idk but I went looking for your collages and I can't stop laughing, sorry)

I don't know what to do with this Enneagram-wise


----------



## Sparky2929

I have had a few disagreements here about the core traits of a 5. I think the average 5 description is riddled with sp 5 traits, losing sight of anyone who has sp last on their stacking.

I relate strongly to these two descriptions of a 5, which don't relate to the typical 5. If I'm such an atypical 5, then maybe I'm not a 5. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Please use the descriptions below, as I think they describe me the best.

"Social/Sexual

When reasonably healthy, people of this subtype can be very engaging (for a Five). They smile a lot and are often friendly. Their energy is quite different from the social/self-pres subtype because both the social and sexual energies push outwards, and so partly balance out some of the withdrawing tendencies of the Five. This doesn?t mean that people of this subtype are necessarily any healthier however. The outgoing energy is not the result of true integration to Eight but is the result of the compulsive pull of the instincts. People of this subtype are usually warm and when feeling secure are likely to let people in and even to initiate contact. When they feel insecure however, they can actually go to the other extreme and be very shy. For this reason, people of this subtype could easily be mistyped; those Fives who withdraw from social contact because of feelings of insecurity, might not seem like social subtypes at all. It might not be obvious that they actually very much desire contact. For people of this subtype, the social instinct actually works as a release value for the sexual component. When relaxed and comfortable with others, the sexual instinct can easily be seen.

People of this subtype are very aware of how they ?fit in,? and also experience the sexual drive of wanting to connect with intimates. Like other social/sexual subtypes, they have the tendency to cultivate many relationships. They want to be liked by everyone, but being Fives they also tend to hold a part of themselves back for fear of rejection or of being overwhelmed by the demands of the relationship. This subtype of Five is more likely to fear rejection than the other subtypes of Five. Because both of the dominant instincts are focused on people, any failure in the realm of interpersonal relationships triggers a fear that there is no safety in the world. Personality systems like the Enneagram function as tool to help this subtype of Five to feel safe in the world. People of this subtype tend to think that the more they understand people, the less chance they have of being rejected. This tends to be a blind spot for people of this subtype as they don?t see that what will actually help them to become healthier is gaining more life experience. This will help them to see that their world will not come to an end with a little rejection."

https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/five-stacks/

"Type 5 - ?I just want to understand?: A type 5 ENFP is defined by their exceptional curiosity and inventiveness. These talents are driven by their dominant extroverted intuition, which leads them to become absorbed in countless theoretical possibilities, ideas, and concepts. They are somewhat more withdrawn than the stereotypical ENFP, preoccupied with a restless desire to ?figure things (or people) out?. Their Fi values intellectual capability and competence. They often have well-developed Te, which they use to understand, categorize, and streamline their understanding of the world. They?re likely to want to contribute something original and innovative to society. They?re often treasure troves of random knowledge and facts, which they?ve collected in the hopes that being knowledgeable will help prepare to deal with the world around them. On the flip side, this ENFP may be prone to know-it-all-ism as well as an unproductive tendency to ignore their emotions and insecurities, which often lie closer to the surface than they?d like."

https://highonmbti.tumblr.com/post/141001861225/enfps-of-each-enneagram-type

I identify with so/sx 5w4 ENFP.


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## brightflashes

@Sparky2929 I haven't gotten to know you very much yet, but I (thankfully) am extremely good at spotting 5s and 4s. I'll go back and read some of the things you've posted here before and consider and get back to you (most likely in a PM).


----------



## napkineater

@Versailles

You're a wizard Harry


----------



## Dangerose

About collages - idk, don't really take it that seriously
But I do think it makes a difference how you make them, it's really confusing and hard for me for example, not naturally a visual person, don't usually look at pictures for fun haha, usually go to my Pinterest and scroll through the first hundred or so pictures I see which I don't know the algorhythm for what shows up, pick a few I like, then try to make a themed thing, sometimes I want an image and end up searching things like for the last one I was searching 'people swinging over city' lol, sometimes I find something to match, sometimes not...

I think it's different from how other people do it, at least I feel completely incompetent about it, tbh I'd never be looking at these images if I wasn't trying to make collages

(Which is why all my collages have words because...I don't get that much out of the images themselves)

There are a few art and architecture things I really do like, when I was first doing this collage thing actually I don't think it was collages yet just images I was sharing them a lot but I'm not sure anything ever came across from it

I really really like groin vaults










and this thing










and cloisters










And maybe Gothic church design, this is my favorite for instance










There's another type of church design I really like, I have a little picture I bought at a rummage sale somewhere in my room but I don't have it now and I don't remember now

And then paintings, the thing is I had to really force myself to understand or like things, I'd go through my Art History book staring at things making up stories and trying to appreciate them so the things I liked are kind-of formed by...the things I ended up focusing on, this particular painting I really love but it might be the only one that naturally appeals to me:










There are a couple others I really liked in high school but looking at them now...eh


----------



## Immolate

@*brightflashes* I understand your frustration, but:



> While I don't think that the collage thread or considering MBTI or anything else should be left out, *it is so important that people who truly want to understand what Enneagram is all about study the Enneagram itself*, not things which have little to no bearing on type. I have found that the interpretations say much more about a person's type than the collages themselves.


I am much more flippant about it because I think the person seeking to learn is always responsible for sifting through information and determining for themselves what is potentially valid and potentially bullshit. The underlined point is something that's been discussed before with regards to visual typing threads in general (such threads exist for Enneagram and Socionics).


----------



## Superfluous

napkineater said:


> @Versailles
> 
> You're a wizard Harry


*Im Deeply Offended because you know I am a fairy, NOT a Wizard.*


----------



## napkineater

Versailles said:


> *Im Deeply Offended because you know I am a fairy, NOT a Wizard.*


these dweebs talking about architecture and shit and you're still the biggest nerd here


----------



## Superfluous

napkineater said:


> these dweebs talking about architecture and shit and you're still the biggest nerd here


wow, thank


----------



## Dangerose

The Night's Queen said:


> There are a couple others I really liked in high school but looking at them now...eh


Ok forgive me but I'm curious about this actually (and...still distracting myself from possibility of walking randomly around town asking people if they have jobs for me :shocked

I've spent a lot of time thinking about why I like this picture, but I just noticed something I really like about it, because I recently saw something about it irl, in the left there are two window columns, one of them the stone is faded away and there's just the metal center.

This is not something I realized about columns until like four days ago when I visited an abandoned church and saw the same thing, this really fascinated me, someone stole my phone so I don't have pictures but I took a lot, I really really like knowing every little detail about the architectural structure of something, it's so fascinating to me that stone columns have metal in them, was visiting a church today and I was really proud of myself for noticing that one of the altars looked like marble but was actually painted stone, I think it's so interesting to watch buildings in construction, I always want to see plans and have them explained to me. In general I like knowing all kinds of details about a place, for example I wrote a guide to Rome and it was my goal to figure out what was what with every building (it was more for me than anything else)...and I love maps, just looking at them, when I was a kid I had a rug that was a map of the Hundred Acre Wood and it was just my favorite thing to trace my finger along it and...think about it, idk

Like this


















And in fact today I was sightseeing and the way I enjoyed this activity was by writing as detailed as I could descriptions of the things I was seeing (goal is to use that as a starting place and research what things actually are, these are just my notes for myself lol but I like getting all my information in a very organized place or I get frustrated with the ambiguity)










It's really...boring lol, but I like this kind of thing, well, and it bores me as well but the ambiguity of not knowing what some thing is annoys me so much, I really like the idea of knowing everything to know about something, my mind blurs over things I don't understand, so I like for instance seeing some insignia and knowing 'ah yes that's the sign of the Colonna family which is why it's there' rather than just being confused, one reason I never liked visual art, it's not always apparent to me what things are

Another thing, maybe similar to how I like seeing buildings opened up, I like knowing word origins, most endlessly fascinating thing to me, as a kid too I loved looking up the meaning of names, I had a book and I'd spend hours going through myself, and I'd reward myself to go to the appendix part of my kids' dictionary that had lots of fun facts about names and words and things

Is it...sp? some head type thing? unrelated?

For a while I wanted to be an architect, tried to major in engineering once or twice too lol, probably not a good reason to choose these jobs (well I was filled with terrible reasons, I also liked architecture because of the Phantom of the Opera haha) but this was one of the things

Type-related somehow?

Notice I always end up with a lot of paths in my collages too, don't put them there on purpose but I guess I do like them...6?


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## brightflashes

Immolate said:


> @*brightflashes* I understand your frustration, but:
> 
> 
> 
> I am much more flippant about it because I think the person seeking to learn is always responsible for sifting through information and determining for themselves what is potentially valid and potentially bullshit. The underlined point is something that's been discussed before with regards to visual typing threads in general (such threads exist for Enneagram and Socionics).


It appears we're in agreement. I don't disagree with anything you said. Maybe I didn't communicate my original point very clearly. However, I believe I've probably over stated my distaste rather than understated it. I believe the individual alone is the sole person who can truly know their type. Any input from others only serves to open up perspectives. Unfortunately, I don't detect that this is the culture accepted on the Enneagram forum as a whole. It seems that the focus is much more on correctly typing rather than exploring the theory. While I think a correct type is important, I think it's ridiculous for anyone to get bent out of shape because someone has decided they're a 9 but is outwardly better suited to the 2 type. 

One argument I have seen multiple times here is that if one is mistyped, they will spread misinformation about the type they are mistyped as as well as their "true type". I call BS to that myself. One's critical thinking skills develop over time. If a member is unable to apply sound reasoning to why they select something as "True" and select something as "False", then it's really their own job to figure things out for themselves.

It's very much like the passage from the bible about removing the beam from one's own eye before criticizing the speck of dust in another's. 

Obviously my issues are only with one or two other people anyway, and this discussion might best be held in private PM conversations, but I want others to know to watch out for fallacies. While it's ultimately up to the individual to use their own discernment, there's nothing wrong with pointing out why certain methods have holes in them.

Anyway, I'm out of energy for this conversation. I'd rather save it for PMs anyway. Besides I think I might be on the cusp of derailing the thread and I think it could better be used for what it's meant to be used for. Also, I didn't realize that I even felt this strongly about this issue until the whole collage mayhem that broke out yesterday. Or, more accurately, I didn't realize that I'd be so willing to invest several posts of explanation to my position - generally the energy I'm willing to put into extraverting my feelings and thoughts is a good measure of how much I care about the subject.


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## Darkbloom

Pictures never really speak to me, there are things I like but...idk, like I made this collage today because I had a couple of images I liked and I wanted to use them somehow.
View attachment 685794
The first one was the one I really liked for some reason, inspired me to make this collage but like...I don't have an interpretation, I don't think I relate to it either, if I do it's very subconscious  , would probably like it just as much if it had eyes lol but I really like the way she's standing I think. Especially combined with the color. Wanted to use it as my avatar but thought it felt off for me,don't really want an avatar without eyes,and lack of eyes seems to be the point.


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## star tripper

I never liked the collage thing because I always have this mental image in mind and there never seems to be a photo that captures it. For example, I made this collage:








(Forgive any potential sizing issues as I am on mobile.)

And exactly none of these pictures captured what I was looking for. I wanted stormy waves lashing viciously against a small sailboat or the image of being lost in a snowy forest but from a behind-the-trees perspective or I wanted the image of a child staring at a cherry blossom tree in the middle of the snow and... nothing. These are just "close enough." I think that's likely the case for most collages -- they're imperfect due to the restrictive nature of the web or due to one's own perfectionism.

Or perhaps that _is_ what's telling of a collage -- the level of imperfection the architect permits.


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## Paradigm

The Night's Queen said:


> Are the typewatch descriptions any good?
> Assuming I'm sp/so (which might be a terrible assumption) they sound nothing like me


If they work for you, then they're okay. If they don't, they kinda suck.

At least, that's how I tend to take things.

I do think most all SX-last stacking descriptions suck, FWIW. There would be very few people I trust enough to write something official about them - and I'm not talking published authors. Talking of their "vibe" and stuff is... okay, in casual discourse, assuming you avoid the immature "SX last = boring" views, but descriptions are a whole other ballgame.

Typewatch descriptions work for me, especially their 6w7 and sp/sx... But that's just me, for those two things. If I went further, I'd probably find more to fault about them (I recall not particularly enjoying their 1w9 description, for example).


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## Brains

brightflashes said:


> It is a similar logical fallacy to use MBTI in any way to divine a person's type. The Enneagram theory stands alone from any other personality theory. That is its strength. It wouldn't be as popular as it is if it needed to rely on supplementary typology for type confirmation. Big-5 and MBTI, as they use completely different typing methods (trait theory) should be left out of it.
> 
> I see a lot of hypocrisy in statements made that this forum is for serious discussion only when methods used for typing end up mocking the original system to begin with.
> 
> While I don't think that the collage thread or considering MBTI or anything else should be left out, it is so important that people who truly want to understand what Enneagram is all about study the Enneagram itself, not things which have little to no bearing on type. I have found that the interpretations say much more about a person's type than the collages themselves.


The Enneagram stands alone, yes. The whole reason Jungian typology, MBTI testing, Big Five and the Enneagram can correlate is because each one stands alone. Each system, from the get-go, is built to be a broad, comprehensive account of someone's personality. The reason any of them correlate is because they are broad descriptions of the same thing: A single person's personality. If one system says the person is largely made of hardwood, it makes scant little sense to say they're primarily soft and fuzzy.

That said, the correlation stuff is in some sense an aside - I definitely recommend learning each system standalone, and to learn each system thoroughly. See what makes sense in each system by itself. The correlations are error-checking, little else. What I do not approve is the many forumpeoples' tendency to use part of a typing to justify unfitting parts of another so they fit neither of their typings standalone, the way each system of their typology pile was originally built to be used. Instead they pick and choose their favs and wave away inconsistency to arrive at maximum interestingness.


----------



## Dangerose

Brains said:


> What I do not approve is the many forumpeoples' tendency to use part of a typing to justify unfitting parts of another so they fit neither of their typings standalone, the way each system of their typology pile was originally built to be used. Instead they pick and choose their favs and wave away inconsistency to arrive at maximum interestingness.


Don't think this is the cause 
Guilty of this myself so there's that but the thing for me at least is that it's trying to find a balance, always felt uncomfortable typing at ExFJ 2 for instance because I'm nice and feely and extroverted but I'm not _that_ nice and feely and extroverted, feel like one of those elements is right but there's something keeping me back either from being a fully realized (stereotypical?) Fe-dom or 2, those elements don't make sense together because they go too well together, and I think my personality would be different if I had both of those elements, makes absolute sense to me to try to temper things to find the impulses that conflict to make my particular personality. It's not that I'm trying to be unique or interesting with my typing, it's that I'm trying to describe myself in a reasonable way; ExFJ 2 is a ridiculous hat on me but something like ENFJ 6 like i'm typing now or...INFP 2 or something like that, makes a lot more sense.

I mean I think those are pretty common combinations anyways but I think people are complex and can easily contradict themselves, "Of course I contradict myself; I contain multitudes" as maybe Whitman said, I agree there's something fishy about ESFJ 5 or something but I don't think people are doing that to shape a personal brand or something, but because they really for example relate to the 5 description and then...ok I don't know, they think about their childhoods and how they were never able to connect but really wanted to and always cared a lot about other people's opinions and about the past and their surroundings and then they think, oh, Fe would make sense and would explain why I'm not like all the other 5s, which I don't think is an attempt to escape from the box but...I mean, there's only 9 types, most people aren't perfect paragons of their type, and it's natural to want to tie up the loose ends.

People aren't primarily like raw materials anyways, maybe more like natural environments, if you've got a marsh and the options are 'forest' 'lake' 'ocean' 'sky' 'desert' you might think you need a combination of 'forest' and 'lake' for things to make sense.


----------



## Scarlet Eyes

Regarding collage typing, I don't take the practice too seriously. I just view it as a fun little hobby. If someone uses that as their sole method for typing a person, then they _really_ need to stop and think about how knowledgeable they truly are in the system. 

Sometimes I have an idea on what to convey in a collage. Most of the time I don't. Many of the images I pick are based on instinct. And as I build a collage, certain themes start to form then. I trust this method more because chances are, it'll take me hours to find the best images that communicate the idea I want. 

I think that the interpretations say more about the typer than the collage's creator. It gives a vague idea on the typers' preconceptions and knowledge on the Enneagram. And the interpretations could be skewed by the creator's current and previous typings. Admittedly, my knowledge is still limited. But I like applying that knowledge into others' collages. Plus I always like seeing if the typer's perception of my collage matched my intentions.


----------



## Figure

RE: collage typing:

I have been very critical of this practice in the past, here and elsewhere. It's part of a larger online culture more so than a true standalone type practice. What I see are mostly people who spend a lot of time in enneagram communities, where people are very chatty and peacocky about their persona, and what you would ideally acknowledge about it. These are people who tend to gravitate towards character enneagram much more so than a psycho-dynamic, self-introspective model. 

They thrive on conversations where one person repeatedly questions their type, and the group casually tosses around off the collar theories on the person's hidden nature. The conversations continue, because the typing isn't checked against framework nor is it felt that it should ever need to be. Along with the collages, they like typing celebrities, inanimate objects, and other non-connected things with lots of colorful language and pictures. 

Collage typing types a very different enneagram type than the one described by, say, Ichazo. It, along with tritype, is what I will probably begin coining the Identiteagram - a personality theory of modularizing one's self image online.


----------



## Shiver

I posted in the collage thread mostly to be entertained by the experience; I don't really consider it an effective form of typing. As far as online strangers go, it's about all I'm really willing to share anyway. Questionnaires seem rather vague as well, at least with how they're usually framed.


----------



## Dangerose

Hm, I'd say I prefer the Identeagram) 

First thing is, for I guess religious reasons I'm a little uncomfortable with the Enneagram, Vatican said:



> Gnosticism never completely abandoned the realm of Christianity. Instead, it has always existed side by side with Christianity, sometimes taking the shape of a philosophical movement, but more often assuming the characteristics of a religion or a para-religion in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian”. An example of this can be seen in the enneagram, the nine-type tool for character analysis, which *when used as a means of spiritual growth* introduces an ambiguity in the doctrine and the life of the Christian faith.


Nothing about when not used as a means of spiritual growth so...it's confusing to me where the line is actually supposed to be, so I figure if I just avoid anything that's like using it as a means of spiritual growth I'm fine? lol

(longer article that mentions that Pope Francis likes the Enneagram and is an Eight...which seems surprising, I would have guessed Nine stereotypically? but I haven't followed him too much, anyone have an idea?)

https://onepeterfive.com/pope-francis-really-not-enneagram/

Anyways, Enneagram is too fun and interesting for me to give up in totem and I don't think it's really bad.

Plus...I know what my biggest sins and my biggest problems are and they're not Enneagram-related, and I'm always working on those, don't feel like focusing on my Enneagram issues is the highest priority, got other things to worry about  And I introspect plenty, too much. Primarily interested in Enneagram as a way of understanding other people/myself/various scenarios, it's more food for my Ne and 7 than something I want to shape my life around. And yes, a way to overthink about my personality and how I come off to other people and etc etc etc

But I mean, before learning Enneagram I didn't know why people acted the way they did . . . still don't know empirically of course but it used to be that I would either try to find a similar motive in what other people were doing to what I might do (and often I was wrong) or just...it would just stand as a blank, wouldn't feel real at all. Now I have a tool that...if I have a frustrating conversation with someone I can realize 'oh, he's a 9 and 9s react badly to feeling pushed because they have invisible walls they're barely aware of' (if that's a fair characterization of 9), otherwise I'm either making something up (they have some secret reason for not wanting to do this thing, oh I bet they're in love with x person) or I just feel like they're making something up and reality feels confusing, like I'm talking to false fronts of buildings...being able to recognize some consistent reactions from types, and not trigger them unnecessarily, being aware of how things might be interpreted by such a type and not falling into that trap, being able to understand where conflicts between myself and other people (and other people and other people) come from, without only being able to understand the things I can relate to myself, is nice.

But I also like knowing how people view me haha, most confusing part of my life probably, never know, always want to know










think I do skew my emphasis there, and...I know it's not great but...ok I know I'm typing at 6 but maybe it's a heart type thing, could be attachment type thing too, I just have no clue, no clue what people see when they look at me and I....on some level I know I don't want to know and I wouldn't be able to handle how the people I know irl would see these really...ordinary faults in me, things maybe I'm not aware of or am aware of but don't think other people take note of, of course Enneagram doesn't deal with my annoying accent or fat arms but I'm always trying to crawl into other peoples' eyes and see what they're seeing, to know when we part at the end of the day how they felt about it, I mean, about me, if something I did was endearing or something I said made them cringe and if it changed their opinion of me, naturally I want to imagine that everyone is desperately in love with or jealous of me but that's not true and the difference is so stark between everyone being in love with me and everyone having average opinions about me (or everyone hating me, which I can also imagine) that I just have no perception, always hoping typology will help with that.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Well that was a bit of a rant. Now what you say here sounds a lot more Image focused to me, really. It's about how you are seen. The fear of looking inside as part and parcel of it, and the desire to see yourself as awesome, strikes me as the 2/3 side of the Image triad.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Tad Cooper said:


> Yeah that's true! Like people find something about me, good or bad, and then wont shift from that view unless I basically bash the point home really hard!
> My views change a lot too - very open to changing my views because otherwise how do you adapt? If things change and you pretend they havent or ignore it then thats no good...
> Ehhh, not so much, I just find it confusing - why would you insist I'm X way when I can give countless examples of me not being X way? I might be X sometimes, but no one is one way all the time - people are all over the place!


Indeed. Verily, people are too much a mystery to be nailed down in such a simplistic way. Not all issues arise from childhood. *rolls eyes at people that claim that*



The Night's Queen said:


> Thanks so much for reading and giving feedback!
> btw when I respond to messages about my type I'm just giving my thoughts, no one is required to keep going with it for any amount of time, I can write a lot, it's not really focused anywhere)
> But I am curious Lord Fenix if you have any opinion on my Socionics type at all? I know you have a lot of good Socionics insight and if you even just have a vibe about my Socionics type I'd like to hear it


Your lack of focus does not seem EIE to me at all. I believe I mentioned something about this when you began to type EIE, and you were not receptive at the time. And one of your friends chewed me out and unfriended me over my refusal to just agree to their view of the world without considering the other angles.

Bollocks to her, I say.

Anyway, you seem to me to be an extrovert and an Irrational type. Your energy level is phenomenal for things you care about, but for other things - like editing your own posts after having sprayed out information - is lesser. This is why you get such scattered responses, I think. You love to respond, but you don't love to edit, so you put much more effort into the responding part of it. EP sort of behavior, though indeed I must make assumptions you do it for EP reasons to make this claim. Take it with a tablespoon of salt.



The Night's Queen said:


> Ohhhh, I think this is the first time I've heard this about myself :cupcake:
> wouldn't say it's wrong though, don't think I have a classically good work ethic since I'm usually focused on my own goals, I think it's always been true for me that I can do something very well if I chose it myself and will put all my energy behind that thing, but it's really hard for me to achieve something that is merely expected of me.
> I mean, you should want me to work for you, because I'll do a good job, but I'm almost incapable of doing something I consider jumping through hoops unless I'm really really focused on the goal and understand that this is the only way of getting there...this makes me have not-typically-good-work-ethic...in school for instance I just wouldn't do the assignments I didn't see any point in doing, assignments I decided to do well were like works of art lol (once I watched a documentary about Chinese schools and there was a thing about how Chinese students always tried to make their homework worthy of being hung on the wall so I always tried for that), but I'd also assign myself ridiculous extra assignments, like we were reading Beowulf in English and 10 pages were assigned and I wrote in my planner 'learn fundamentals of Old English grammar and read 10 pages of Beowulf in modern and old English!'


You reiterate my point above in your own words. Your passion drives you.

By comparison, I pour energy into my work and have little left after. Although, admittedly, lately I have been losing weight and as I do I am getting more of the things I want to do done as well. I question if I truly am as low energy as an IP. Nothing makes as much sense to me as Ni lead, but Ni lead also assumes a sense of inertia to the treatment of life. I am frequently but not always inertial in that way, and this is changing gradually. Perhaps I a some other type, perhaps not.



The Night's Queen said:


> Thanks, I'd agree with this when it comes to myself.
> One of my mottos - 'no song unsung, no wine untasted' (from Les Mis). I like that, when I was 12 or 13 I had a character called Cassia Wanderer in a little story I was writing, she had some sort of vocation to touch her feet on every scrap of land, I mean it was supposed to work out naturally, she didn't walk through fields scraping her feet against everything, but...yeah, not sure how to phrase it, I think about that a lot though.


Do you see how your approach to this, and to life in general, is focused on the perception of a thing? You'd rather experience things, all the things. and strive to accomplish that. Your idealizations are of those that can and have done everything and in so doing have nigh-infinite knowledge. They can fit in anywhere and deserve to be respected as such. A princess, but not one who is too pampered. A wanderer with a thirst for adventure, but not one who scrapes their feet on everything to achieve that goal.



The Night's Queen said:


> Well I mean...I like to think at least that I have some grasp on reality and won't spend all my savings on one opportunity...I mean, too many roads diverge in life every day, can't take every one, gotta take the one that will reap the most, and...it's not obvious always what that will be.
> 
> But I'll also say, I tend to have a somewhat limited grasp on consequence...well I understand it in theory and I think I'm good at taking the consequences of my actions...too good, maybe, there's usually a point where I know I'm going to do something regardless of consequences, but the present and future seem too divorced, and then, the present and past, I can think to myself 'if you hadn't insisted on taking this mode of transportation then none of this disaster would have happened', but I also tend to be too faithful that things are working out for the best, that Fate's on my side, like something goes wrong and I think 'oh, well, of course this sucks now but probably if this thing didn't go wrong I wouldn't know x for the future, or, you know, if I didn't turn right here I wouldn't have tripped in that puddle, had to walk barefoot, stepped on a nail, got tetanus, had to see the doctor, see flyer in doctor's office for some concert, go to concert, meet the love of my life' (this never happened lol but that kind of thing, hard for me to say empirically to say something was a mistake in the moment because I'm always still expecting there was some good reason for it)


I don't think you would screw yourself over like that, no. That was a dramatization for emphasis.

It seems to me obvious that different roads lead to different places and so of course every choice matters. I don't trust Fate, and that's where I struggle with your view. I feel that things work out for the best not as a natural consequence of reality so much as it is that all things are ambiguous and every darkness has a little light inside, and every light a little darkness inside, and thus how you look at it is important. It works out because everything works out, which it does because once its happened and won't change we make do. This is why some people have such charmed lives and yet are always so negative and pessimistic.

Hope for the future isn't based on finding some positive outcome for me. Its based on understanding that every experience is important, it matters. Going through an entirely negative experience is still a positive experience in that surviving it teaches you something about the world, which will make a future experience work out for the best. Do you see what I mean? I don't think "This positive experience is justified by this former bad experience", I think "Well this is an experience. It would have gone differently if I hadn't known to act in this way because of what happened that other time". I'm not really...justifying, I guess. It's just the natural state of the world for things to work out, sometimes for the best and sometimes not, but as time goes on each experience grows as you do and its value increases. Just because it happened before doesn't mean its over, you dig?



The Night's Queen said:


> Well - I do want to achieve some sort of perfection) And be my perfect self)
> I think I'd rather be Everything to Someone than Everything to Everyone, I mean it's a different kind of goal but I'm always thinking in terms of, I want to be perfect when I meet the love of my life, I want to be like...the Perfect Princess, which I don't mean in the sense of spoiled and such but just an archetype of grace and beauty, like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how to explain exactly what I mean though.


Kinda like what I was sayin' above. You want to have the best features of all the archetypes, but that means excluding the worst features, which of course means you are no longer thinking in archetypes at all. You are thinking about the actions of the archetypes and then trying to reference the archetype to get your point across. The action you are looking for, that swirling grace she displays, is a quality you seek to capture without actually being otherwise like the "perfect princess". Really, what you want is to the amazingly graceful and beautiful person who is also awesome in these other ways that aren't really very princess-like, not to be an actual princess. Right?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Brains said:


> I think the biggest mistake people make when looking at collages is the usual many do when doing typology: They look at the what instead of the how. The things that were consciously chosen instead of how they're presented, the tone, and so on. All in all, what most people typing collages look at is what deliberate choices were made, rather than what might not be so much considered. As @*mAAd city* said in the collage thread, just choosing a bunch of pics you genuinely like, what you find interesting or comfortable for whatever reason is fine so long as you're not taking the piss. The pics and arrangements people end up choosing with those instructions tend to have things in common simply because of what different people are drawn to. They are, to some extent, a reflection of our character.
> 
> The reason focusing on conscious choices is usually a mistake is that many people don't have good self-awareness (hell, the system itself is heavily focused on things about ourselves we deny or just don't happen to pay much attention to) or they intentionally try to include certain images to give the impression of some type or another. The stuff you don't think about and end up including is harder - and often more uncomfortable - to fake. They're also convenient because they're something more feeling-based that you can just post on forums instead of interacting live with others.
> 
> Not the final word on typing, of course, but they often bring up stuff that doesn't come across in text.


Well, I guess that's the idea yeah. Although I personally can't just choose a bunch of pictures without putting a lot of thought into it. (But then, sometimes I even use pictures I kind of dislike in an attempt to give a more accurate representation lol.)

And it still might be possible to miss something no matter how much thought is put into it, but... at the same time, I don't think it should be dismissed that people do look at pictures differently, appreciate them differently, interpret them differently etc. Think there can still be something meaningful in collage readings, but don't think it's going to work the same for everyone. Similar to @*Amaranthine* for example, I don't find pictures "speak" to me easily like that (though I still probably have an easier time with it than her). I mean, it's actually not that natural for me in general to think about how I relate to things, but when making a collage I still try to think about it since I figure that's the point. So I approach collage-making in a different way from someone who naturally relate to pictures, or someone who don't worry about it much. Even when I try to follow my instincts more.

(Not sure if I'm getting any point across well. Can't preview my posts so it's harder to see.)

Edit:


Paradigm said:


> Thanks
> I type myself as weak SX-mid, kinda as if I'm SP/SX because I have no SOC, rather than because I have a lot of SX.
> 
> As Typewatch explains it:


Something else you wrote made me wonder if you could be SpSo, though... but I didn't save it, so don't recall exactly what. 

--
@*Lord Fenix Wulfheart*
Hm, that's interesting what you say about archetypes. I find I can have rather mixed feelings about them.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Indeed. Verily, people are too much a mystery to be nailed down in such a simplistic way. Not all issues arise from childhood. *rolls eyes at people that claim that*


Haha I dont get how people can believe that...it would mean nothing after a certain time period would affect you which wouldn't make sense....(I mean, my childhood was pretty standard, albeit maybe a bit stressful, but it wasn't until my early teens things went really bad and my personality changed completely).


----------



## Dangerose

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Your lack of focus does not seem EIE to me at all. I believe I mentioned something about this when you began to type EIE, and you were not receptive at the time. And one of your friends chewed me out and unfriended me over my refusal to just agree to their view of the world without considering the other angles.


This sounds dramatic but I have no memory of it; sure it was me?)



> Anyway, you seem to me to be an extrovert and an Irrational type. Your energy level is phenomenal for things you care about, but for other things - like editing your own posts after having sprayed out information - is lesser. This is why you get such scattered responses, I think. You love to respond, but you don't love to edit, so you put much more effort into the responding part of it. EP sort of behavior, though indeed I must make assumptions you do it for EP reasons to make this claim. Take it with a tablespoon of salt.


Ok, thanks, terribly flattering imagery too
I edit posts if I catch something that could be interpreted two ways or if I think of an important clarification or addition...I'm not sure why I would edit any more than that on an Internet forum; I type my posts the way I want them to be read. What are you talking about here anyways - spelling, grammar, polish?
For the first point unless I'm writing something I intend to be published some day I don't care much about spelling or grammar...and I don't think I make such a great quantity of errors that I'd routinely sit for a few minutes scanning through looking for them...if polish is the problem, I don't want to edit for that either; on this forum I write the way I'd speak, I would start to not sound like myself if I were composing posts the way you'd compose a poem. I know I write a lot but I'm trying to portray myself accurately, if my posts go through a few washing stations before seeing the light of day I think they'd lean more towards showing the person I want to be seen as, etc., and...that never occurred to me, it would surprise me if more than a handful of people edits their posts as a step


> You reiterate my point above in your own words. Your passion drives you.
> 
> By comparison, I pour energy into my work and have little left after. Although, admittedly, lately I have been losing weight and as I do I am getting more of the things I want to do done as well. I question if I truly am as low energy as an IP. Nothing makes as much sense to me as Ni lead, but Ni lead also assumes a sense of inertia to the treatment of life. I am frequently but not always inertial in that way, and this is changing gradually. Perhaps I a some other type, perhaps not.


Huh, losing weight as well and that's tiring of itself))
Definitely know what you mean though, I've lost weight in the past and it really did change my energy levels for the better, haven't gotten to that point yet this time I guess.



> Do you see how your approach to this, and to life in general, is focused on the perception of a thing? You'd rather experience things, all the things. and strive to accomplish that. Your idealizations are of those that can and have done everything and in so doing have nigh-infinite knowledge. They can fit in anywhere and deserve to be respected as such. A princess, but not one who is too pampered. A wanderer with a thirst for adventure, but not one who scrapes their feet on everything to achieve that goal.


You seem to be taking my clarifications with a little more force than they were intended) My thought with those additions wasn't 'this is important' but like 'when people hear this they might think this and I wish to steer them from that direction'. 
See what you mean about the dominant perception though)



> It seems to me obvious that different roads lead to different places and so of course every choice matters. I don't trust Fate, and that's where I struggle with your view. I feel that things work out for the best not as a natural consequence of reality so much as it is that all things are ambiguous and every darkness has a little light inside, and every light a little darkness inside, and thus how you look at it is important. It works out because everything works out, which it does because once its happened and won't change we make do. This is why some people have such charmed lives and yet are always so negative and pessimistic.


Hm, I'd agree with this more or less. 



> Hope for the future isn't based on finding some positive outcome for me. Its based on understanding that every experience is important, it matters. Going through an entirely negative experience is still a positive experience in that surviving it teaches you something about the world, which will make a future experience work out for the best.


I don't see it this way, learning something doesn't make something a positive experience, makes that future experience a positive experience and that experience a learning experience)
Would agree with the idea that not everything has to be positive to be worthwhile, especially if positive means just 'happy' - looking for the beauty, truth, goodness in something - finding God in something, to be blunt, makes it worthwhile.



> Do you see what I mean? I don't think "This positive experience is justified by this former bad experience", I think "Well this is an experience. It would have gone differently if I hadn't known to act in this way because of what happened that other time". I'm not really...justifying, I guess. It's just the natural state of the world for things to work out, sometimes for the best and sometimes not, but as time goes on each experience grows as you do and its value increases. Just because it happened before doesn't mean its over, you dig?


I see what you mean but I don't agree, every moment has to stand on its own two legs, doesn't help to increase value of future moments if you get hit by a bus tomorrow.



> Kinda like what I was sayin' above. You want to have the best features of all the archetypes, but that means excluding the worst features, which of course means you are no longer thinking in archetypes at all. You are thinking about the actions of the archetypes and then trying to reference the archetype to get your point across. The action you are looking for, that swirling grace she displays, is a quality you seek to capture without actually being otherwise like the "perfect princess". Really, what you want is to the amazingly graceful and beautiful person who is also awesome in these other ways that aren't really very princess-like, not to be an actual princess. Right?


I don't think so...the emphasis was never supposed to be on the word 'princess' anyways, of course I don't mean a literal princess since that would involve various affairs of state and such concerns, that particular word came from a. fairytales and the Disney franchise using 'princess' to portray a particular feminine ideal, b. historically princesses and the like being the ones with time to gather achievements and cultivate their personalities, average 19th century royalty perhaps spoke 3 or 4 languages fluently, average 19th century peasant didn't, hence 'farmer's daughter' isn't exactly what I want even though if I used that as a name for an archetype I wanted to embody I wouldn't mean 'quite good with cows' but perhaps more simplicity, freshness, that kind of thing.

These are ideals and the whole point for me is that they are ideals. Perhaps I am using the word 'archetype' incorrectly, I mean it because I think of these as things I want to 'embody' not merely 'imitate' but that one person could probably _not_ fully embody - or imitate. Perhaps paragon would be a better word.


----------



## Paradigm

Distortions said:


> Something else you wrote made me wonder if you could be SpSo, though... but I didn't save it, so don't recall exactly what.


Yeah I think I come off SP/SO superficially, until you start talking to me. My superficial demeanor is a lot different than my intimate one.

Could be that the stereotypical SP idea is SP/SO and I'm just stupidly "high" in SP, too...


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The Night's Queen said:


> This sounds dramatic but I have no memory of it; sure it was me?)


Yes. Why would you have memory of my argument with someone else you were not present for?



The Night's Queen said:


> Ok, thanks, terribly flattering imagery too
> I edit posts if I catch something that could be interpreted two ways or if I think of an important clarification or addition...I'm not sure why I would edit any more than that on an Internet forum; I type my posts the way I want them to be read. What are you talking about here anyways - spelling, grammar, polish?
> For the first point unless I'm writing something I intend to be published some day I don't care much about spelling or grammar...and I don't think I make such a great quantity of errors that I'd routinely sit for a few minutes scanning through looking for them...if polish is the problem, I don't want to edit for that either; on this forum I write the way I'd speak, I would start to not sound like myself if I were composing posts the way you'd compose a poem. I know I write a lot but I'm trying to portray myself accurately, if my posts go through a few washing stations before seeing the light of day I think they'd lean more towards showing the person I want to be seen as, etc., and...that never occurred to me, it would surprise me if more than a handful of people edits their posts as a step


I'd be surprised to learn that most people do not. I reread every post that I make at least once.



The Night's Queen said:


> You seem to be taking my clarifications with a little more force than they were intended) My thought with those additions wasn't 'this is important' but like 'when people hear this they might think this and I wish to steer them from that direction'.
> See what you mean about the dominant perception though)


It seems to me that your objection is not to what I say, but rather to how I have said it.



The Night's Queen said:


> I don't see it this way, learning something doesn't make something a positive experience, makes that future experience a positive experience and that experience a learning experience)
> Would agree with the idea that not everything has to be positive to be worthwhile, especially if positive means just 'happy' - looking for the beauty, truth, goodness in something - finding God in something, to be blunt, makes it worthwhile.


I think you miss my point. It is not that the experience from which you have learned is now suddenly a positive experience. It is that there is an inherent positivity and negativity to each experience, depending on how you view it. If you view something as a learning experience and you view learning as positive, you necessarily view learning experiences as positive, at least in part. If you do not, then your understanding of an experience will differ from another's who does view it that way.



The Night's Queen said:


> I see what you mean but I don't agree, every moment has to stand on its own two legs, doesn't help to increase value of future moments if you get hit by a bus tomorrow.


Unless being hit by a bus and then spending a half a decade struggling to recover from it teaches you the meaning of patience and that enables you to interact with others in a more positive light which eventually leads you to a career you excel in but would not have otherwise chosen.

Depending on where you started and what you look at, all things have a meaning to them. There is purpose in all things. You have but to look.

"My lance, my sword, and my good right arm stand ever at thy service,'and, forasmuch as I am--as all the world doth know--the mightiest knight on life, I doubt not that the overthrow of these miscreant knights shall be but a light task, which I gladly undertake, and my skill and my prowess are such that, barring accident, I may confidently assure thee that their overthrow shall not do them permanent injury."

-Baron Mandorallen, upon being asked to defeat twenty armed men without killing or causing permanent harm to any of them. Near impossible odds, yet he views it entirely as a positive experience which he cannot help but win. Some years later, Mandorallen experiences fear for the first time, and struggles for some time to defeat this beast within...eventually becoming a much better knight for the experience.



The Night's Queen said:


> I don't think so...the emphasis was never supposed to be on the word 'princess' anyways, of course I don't mean a literal princess since that would involve various affairs of state and such concerns, that particular word came from a. fairytales and the Disney franchise using 'princess' to portray a particular feminine ideal, b. historically princesses and the like being the ones with time to gather achievements and cultivate their personalities, average 19th century royalty perhaps spoke 3 or 4 languages fluently, average 19th century peasant didn't, hence 'farmer's daughter' isn't exactly what I want even though if I used that as a name for an archetype I wanted to embody I wouldn't mean 'quite good with cows' but perhaps more simplicity, freshness, that kind of thing.
> 
> These are ideals and the whole point for me is that they are ideals. Perhaps I am using the word 'archetype' incorrectly, I mean it because I think of these as things I want to 'embody' not merely 'imitate' but that one person could probably _not_ fully embody - or imitate. Perhaps paragon would be a better word.


It isn't about the word, no. It is about the archetype, which is exactly what I was saying.

You are not the one that chose the word archetype. I used the word to reference what I perceived you to be talking about. Precisely because you do NOT seem to mean you want to be a literal princess, but there are certain qualities that are princess-like you want to have. This means you wish to adopt portions of the archetype.

Honestly, it looks to me like you are disagreeing with me then going on to rephrase what I said in your own words.

When I say "Quality you seek to capture", for example, I do not mean "Imitate". I actually do mean it much closer to "embody", which is the word you chose to rephrase my point. So when you correct me here and rephrase it how you think it should be said, you are rephrasing the conclusion I came to as though it is correcting me when in fact we just have different word choice. Does that make any sense? I'm probably not being clear 

I've noticed we have this issue a lot. We are quite similar in some ways, but for some reason there are communication barriers. Something about the way I communicate seems to not fit what you want to hear, or something. Not exactly sure what it is.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Are there any other so/sx for whom the instinct ranges don't make much sense?


----------



## Paradigm

Rose for a Heart said:


> Are there any other so/sx for whom the instinct ranges don't make much sense?


If you mean Typewatch's ranges, I wouldn't put much stock or concern into it. I know I'm (apparently) the one who brought it up, but still.

What doesn't make sense, by the way?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Paradigm said:


> If you mean Typewatch's ranges, I wouldn't put much stock or concern into it. I know I'm (apparently) the one who brought it up, but still.
> 
> What doesn't make sense, by the way?


Yeah, the article has 3 stars so I figured people didn't like it very much haha.

I mean the whole phobic/counterphobic split of the lightside and darkside so/sx. I technically behave very phobically when I withdraw (I said more about this on the recent thread by Dead Flag Blues on the enneagram forum), but the response I get from people is that I am most likely darkside. I don't really go counterphobic - I mean I disparage society plenty when I am letting it out maybe with a friend or in my diary, but I am not "counterphobic SO" in actual social situations. Online, recently I have been but then it's easier to do that hiding behind a screen... (very embarrassing lol, but it's true so I am mentioning it). But I don't relate to the lightside SO stuff like "ingratiating, welcoming, amusing." I am _very _withdrawn and shy. 

So I seriously don't know where I would fall on that range.


----------



## Dangerose

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I've noticed we have this issue a lot. We are quite similar in some ways, but for some reason there are communication barriers. Something about the way I communicate seems to not fit what you want to hear, or something. Not exactly sure what it is.


Yeah lol, is there some Socionics intertype thing that explains this?
Interesting that you ascribe it to your phrasing not being what I 'want to hear' :crying:
I'm going to try to be very clear and plain with my language to try to get around the barrier. Not being mean just being clear as possible



> Yes. Why would you have memory of my argument with someone else you were not present for?


Ah, because I did not realize I was not present)



> I'd be surprised to learn that most people do not. I reread every post that I make at least once.



Huh, that's...overkill to me 
I'd be curious to hear from other people! Never considered people were editing their posts before posting!




> It seems to me that your objection is not to what I say, but rather to how I have said it.


Nooo, it's that you took my disclaimers as things with meaning of their own, completely changed the meaning of what I was saying.



> I think you miss my point. It is not that the experience from which you have learned is now suddenly a positive experience. It is that there is an inherent positivity and negativity to each experience, depending on how you view it. If you view something as a learning experience and you view learning as positive, you necessarily view learning experiences as positive, at least in part. If you do not, then your understanding of an experience will differ from another's who does view it that way.


Certainly, yes.













> Unless being hit by a bus and then spending a half a decade struggling to recover from it teaches you the meaning of patience and that enables you to interact with others in a more positive light which eventually leads you to a career you excel in but would not have otherwise chosen.


I meant get hit by a bus and die 
I do think experiences lead you to places you're supposed to be. But I don't think being good at a job you have in 20 years means that much; that's a quantity thing, what matters is the quality of the moments you're in.
Increasing the value of moments throughout life is like gambling, maybe you will get the cash payout but you lose it all if - you die, or something goes wrong . . . 

I don't think life circumstances being slightly different makes a big difference in overall happiness or more importantly joy - what matters is mindset, and that's always 'now'.

Wrote this for example:

_Loneliness is real. Loneliness is the only real thing there is. Everything else . . . a delusion, a trick of the light. Only in darkness are things as they really are. To be old is to be alone – but few prepare for this murky period of their lives, but only think (if they ever do think of it): when it comes to that, I will endure. Or else ‘I will have everything sorted out by then, the old are wise and so will I be’. And in fact, if I have discovered one thing in this life it is that people can and will endure situations they would have called impossible, if only because there is no other option. As for the other part of it, people do indeed sort their lives out – that is, they find husbands and wives, and bear children, and discover sources of livelihood and of happiness – but all of this can be knocked down with a single gust of wind, and the wind blows stronger as you reach the end of your path – for that way is near the sea. And I have never seen any evidence that the old are any wiser than the young or in fact the middle-aged. They appear wise because they endure, but they endure only because they must, and if they had the power they would certainly rearrange the world and trade their wisdom, as it is called, for the power and beauty of youth._



> Depending on where you started and what you look at, all things have a meaning to them. There is purpose in all things. You have but to look.
> 
> "My lance, my sword, and my good right arm stand ever at thy service,'and, forasmuch as I am--as all the world doth know--the mightiest knight on life, I doubt not that the overthrow of these miscreant knights shall be but a light task, which I gladly undertake, and my skill and my prowess are such that, barring accident, I may confidently assure thee that their overthrow shall not do them permanent injury."
> 
> -Baron Mandorallen, upon being asked to defeat twenty armed men without killing or causing permanent harm to any of them. Near impossible odds, yet he views it entirely as a positive experience which he cannot help but win. Some years later, Mandorallen experiences fear for the first time, and struggles for some time to defeat this beast within...eventually becoming a much better knight for the experience.


Agree about things having meaning, not sure how the knight is relevant.


> It isn't about the word, no. It is about the archetype, which is exactly what I was saying.
> 
> You are not the one that chose the word archetype. I used the word to reference what I perceived you to be talking about. Precisely because you do NOT seem to mean you want to be a literal princess, but there are certain qualities that are princess-like you want to have. This means you wish to adopt portions of the archetype.
> 
> Honestly, it looks to me like you are disagreeing with me then going on to rephrase what I said in your own words.


Ok. To me it seemed that this:



> You want to have the best features of all the archetypes, but that means excluding the worst features, which of course means you are no longer thinking in archetypes at all.


meant that you were disagreeing with these as archetypes, and seems to be missing the point. For example, the idea of their being a 'worst part' of the 'princess' archetype does not make sense, as it is an ideal, and I thought you were referring to my leaving out 'spoiled/pampered' because you have that association with the word 'princess', when that was never part of the archetype and I only included that because I realize that some people have that association. For me I would consider these things archetypes, as they represent an ideal version of something strained away from its iterations in reality; ideal in the Platonic sense and in the normal sense. It makes no sense to have an ideal that has a 'worst-side'.



> When I say "Quality you seek to capture", for example, I do not mean "Imitate". I actually do mean it much closer to "embody", which is the word you chose to rephrase my point. So when you correct me here and rephrase it how you think it should be said, you are rephrasing the conclusion I came to as though it is correcting me when in fact we just have different word choice. Does that make any sense? I'm probably not being clear


No, it's not just word choice though, because you said:



> The action you are looking for, that swirling grace she displays, is a quality you seek to capture *without actually being otherwise like the "perfect princess".*


which tells me that you are not talking about the archetype, but about your specific connotation with the phrase 'perfect princess' - am I wrong?


----------



## Paradigm

Rose for a Heart said:


> Yeah, the article has 3 stars so I figured people didn't like it very much haha.
> 
> I mean the whole phobic/counterphobic split of the lightside and darkside so/sx. I technically behave very phobically when I withdraw (I said more about this on the recent thread by Dead Flag Blues on the enneagram forum), but the response I get from people is that I am most likely darkside. I don't really go counterphobic - I mean I disparage society plenty when I am letting it out maybe with a friend or in my diary, but I am not "counterphobic SO" in actual social situations. Online, recently I have been but then it's easier to do that hiding behind a screen... (very embarrassing lol, but it's true so I am mentioning it). But I don't relate to the lightside SO stuff like "ingratiating, welcoming, amusing." I am _very _withdrawn and shy.
> 
> So I seriously don't know where I would fall on that range.


It sounds like you're taking it a little too literally. Typewatch has/had a penchant for using hyperbole (like, a lot) and metaphors and such.

That being said, I still wouldn't worry about it :wink:


----------



## Brains

The Night's Queen said:


> Don't think this is the cause
> Guilty of this myself so there's that but the thing for me at least is that it's trying to find a balance, always felt uncomfortable typing at ExFJ 2 for instance because I'm nice and feely and extroverted but I'm not _that_ nice and feely and extroverted, feel like one of those elements is right but there's something keeping me back either from being a fully realized (stereotypical?) Fe-dom or 2, those elements don't make sense together because they go too well together, and I think my personality would be different if I had both of those elements, makes absolute sense to me to try to temper things to find the impulses that conflict to make my particular personality. It's not that I'm trying to be unique or interesting with my typing, it's that I'm trying to describe myself in a reasonable way; ExFJ 2 is a ridiculous hat on me but something like ENFJ 6 like i'm typing now or...INFP 2 or something like that, makes a lot more sense.
> 
> I mean I think those are pretty common combinations anyways but I think people are complex and can easily contradict themselves, "Of course I contradict myself; I contain multitudes" as maybe Whitman said, I agree there's something fishy about ESFJ 5 or something but I don't think people are doing that to shape a personal brand or something, but because they really for example relate to the 5 description and then...ok I don't know, they think about their childhoods and how they were never able to connect but really wanted to and always cared a lot about other people's opinions and about the past and their surroundings and then they think, oh, Fe would make sense and would explain why I'm not like all the other 5s, which I don't think is an attempt to escape from the box but...I mean, there's only 9 types, most people aren't perfect paragons of their type, and it's natural to want to tie up the loose ends.
> 
> People aren't primarily like raw materials anyways, maybe more like natural environments, if you've got a marsh and the options are 'forest' 'lake' 'ocean' 'sky' 'desert' you might think you need a combination of 'forest' and 'lake' for things to make sense.


That is raw materials typing, though, isn't it? "I'm already Fe, if I add another pinch of friendly other orientedness I'll be way too super friendly other oriented". It's really easy to think like that, but really a better procedure would be to ask "what am I like", and once you get a decent enough view see what descriptions separately fit. Error-check with the correlations so you don't end up with a self-forgetting self-obsessed type (Ni dominant style Four) or the like. All personality typology is already a classification of tendencies - an Ni dominant will say "I" or "in my experience" sometimes, a Five will occasionally be engaged and expressive, and so on, but the point of both systems is just to describe the major tendency. Exceptions are expected to exist by definition, and the systems even have sub-categories for those kinds of things with lines and wings and lesser functions.

Even then though, yeah, seeking a moderating setup is understandable and eg. INTP sp5 will likely be more caricaturishly 5 than, say, an ISTP soc5. But the combination is still something that makes sense and doesn't need to jump to "the systems are totally unrelated anyone can be anything" type of thinking or building a new category out of contradictory blocks from two separate systems.


----------



## Paradigm

By the way, @Distortions and @Brains (and anyone else), I'm open to discussing why you think I might be SP/SO. I'm pretty comfortable with my current typing, have been for years, but I'm always up for some navel-gazing :tongue:


----------



## Dangerose

Brains said:


> That is raw materials typing, though, isn't it? "I'm already Fe, if I add another pinch of friendly other orientedness I'll be way too super friendly other oriented". It's really easy to think like that, but really a better procedure would be to ask "what am I like", and once you get a decent enough view see what descriptions separately fit. Error-check with the correlations so you don't end up with a self-forgetting self-obsessed type (Ni dominant style Four) or the like. All personality typology is already a classification of tendencies - an Ni dominant will say "I" or "in my experience" sometimes, a Five will occasionally be engaged and expressive, and so on, but the point of both systems is just to describe the major tendency. Exceptions are expected to exist by definition, and the systems even have sub-categories for those kinds of things with lines and wings and lesser functions.


I don't think it is raw materials typing though - sorry to keep using myself as an example, but in my case the thing that stands out most about my personality, that imo typology should be able to explain, is the specific tension between wanting to be and on some level really being a people person, being energized by interaction and emotional expression, needing other people more than they need me and clicking off without emotional connection, but also being fundamentally not a people person, not letting people into my life, not being open with people, being too insecure and idk what to actually befriend people - I mean, these are seemingly opposite tendencies, you can't primarily try to draw people in and try to push them away, which is why that particular conflict is one of the most defining features of my personality, not so much a matter of trying to season properly but trying to define what's there....yes? The point is the contradiction because it explains something.

Anyways I think unusual MBTI/Enneagram combinations _can_ explain difficult personalities, not saying it's always that or that it's that in my case (again don't think I'm even considering very unusual combos), if motivations are different than mental focus, if the 'why' is a little out of sync with the 'how', that would create a different scenario.



> Even then though, yeah, seeking a moderating setup is understandable and eg. INTP sp5 will likely be more caricaturishly 5 than, say, an ISTP soc5. But the combination is still something that makes sense and doesn't need to jump to "the systems are totally unrelated anyone can be anything" type of thinking or building a new category out of contradictory blocks from two separate systems.


Agree I think, not sure :/


----------



## star tripper

The Night's Queen said:


> I don't think it is raw materials typing though - sorry to keep using myself as an example, but in my case the thing that stands out most about my personality, that imo typology should be able to explain, is the specific tension between wanting to be and on some level really being a people person, being energized by interaction and emotional expression, needing other people more than they need me and clicking off without emotional connection, but also being fundamentally not a people person, not letting people into my life, not being open with people, being too insecure and idk what to actually befriend people - I mean, these are seemingly opposite tendencies, you can't primarily try to draw people in and try to push them away, which is why that particular conflict is one of the most defining features of my personality, not so much a matter of trying to season properly but trying to define what's there....yes? The point is the contradiction because it explains something.
> 
> Anyways I think unusual MBTI/Enneagram combinations _can_ explain difficult personalities, not saying it's always that or that it's that in my case (again don't think I'm even considering very unusual combos), if motivations are different than mental focus, if the 'why' is a little out of sync with the 'how', that would create a different scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree I think, not sure :/


Your conflict sounds a lot to me like so/sp 9. My 9w8 so/sp friend yearns to be what we call "among the living." She wants to connect so badly but she instinctively pulls away due to her inertial nature. She calls herself her own cockblock.

I don't wanna confuse you further, but I think you're on the right track by exploring this paradox of yours.


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> Your conflict sounds a lot to me like so/sp 9. My 9w8 so/sp friend yearns to be what we call "among the living." She wants to connect so badly but she instinctively pulls away due to her inertial nature. She calls herself her own cockblock.
> 
> I don't wanna confuse you further, but I think you're on the right track by exploring this paradox of yours.


Thanks)
____________
General question, how do you know if you're a 9? It feels like something hard to figure out because...it's all about unawareness :/
Never feel like I feel like a 9 but what does being a 9 feel like internally? 
I mean...I don't feel dead to myself lol but I don't know what that would feel like, do sleeping people feel like they're asleep?
I also....my impression of reading 9 descriptions is that there's a feeling of internal mushiness or blurriness, is that true? Can 9s weigh in on this?

edit: I'll make a thread about it, this is always something I'm curious about, regardless of my own typing


----------



## star tripper

I'm not a 9, but imo it depends on how you define self-awareness. In the traditional sense, my 9 friend is painfully aware of her own shortcomings. She pinpointed this conflict of hers all of her own volition -- nobody guided nor directed her. Remember, the 9 idea is Holy Love. My friend is extremely aware of her failure to connect, sometimes choosing to live vicariously in order to experience intense emotion secondhand.

On the other hand, she is self-forgetting. She does think about others' needs to the exclusion of her own. This isn't a pride thing or anything like that. Others having peace provides her peace I guess you could say lol.

I can't speak for how it feels to be a 9. My 9 friend probably wouldn't disagree with the internal blurriness thing but I think it's easy to mistake that as low intrapersonal intelligence. She knows herself. She has values and nuances and a good grasp on her own personal archetype. She has pretty damn good intrapersonal intelligence. The blurry identity is deeper than that. A 9 could probably articulate this better than I can. It's like... they don't have the internal activity non-9s have? I wish I could put words to it as it's a very obvious difference. The way we put it is that I have a difficult personality and she has an easy personality. I have this very overt tendency to analyze and conceptualize every god damn thing in my periphery and explore possible meanings. My friend doesn't really need to do this. She doesn't need to concoct. She's a gut type through and through, stubborn and stable. She has her own internal conflicts, but they seldom ever knock her down (it takes a strong and systematic wind). There's a quiet resilience to her because of her unconscious maintenance of inner peace. Funnily enough, though, she low-key enjoys anger. She doesn't get to experience it very often so it excites her and she holds on to it. She doesn't blow up or actually use her anger in any way, but that doesn't matter to her. Physical impact on the world isn't a priority for her.

Not to say all 9s are like her, but imo 9 is a lot more dynamic than the internet portrays.

Edit: I guess a way to put it is that she knows her personality but she doesn't know how to package it and put it out in the world.


----------



## Dangerose

Talking to 9s can make me feel like Hugh Laurie here))






_Laurie: What relevance does Romeo and Juliet have to today's Britain?
(silence)
Who thinks it has any relevance at all?
(silence)
No one. All right, ok, so, we think it's irrelevant, do we?
(silence)
Ah! Interesting, right. So nobody ... we don't think it's relevant...we don't think it's irrelevant either, yeah? It's sort-of in-between, it's in a kind-of grey area. That's interesting; good, well done! So why do you think...why did Shakespeare write something that was in a grey area? What did he mean by it? Did he mean anything by it? Maybe he was just being stupid! Um...who thinks that? Raise your hands, those people who feel like Shakespeare was being stupid. 
(silence)
No, so, all right, no, that was stupid, I was being stupid, so we don't think Shakespeare was stupid, but he was writing in a grey area, why?
(silence)
All right, why don't you all think about that one, I'll just come out with an opinion here, and it is just an opinion so you can all shout me down as usual...and that is that Romeo and Juliet is about love, we have love, we do love, in today's Britain, so Romeo and Juliet therefore isn't, wasn't irrelevant!
(silence)
So think about that...anyone agree with that?
(silence)
All right, no, so nobody agrees with it, but did anyone find it helpful at all?
(silence)
Nobody...right....no, you're right, yeah...I was being unhelpful there, that's stupid of me, I shouldn't ...I've just clouded the whole issue now, I'm sorry...I'm sorry, I'm just holding you back. Um...well...who'd like me to stay? Hands up those people that would like me to stay, would you like me to stay?
(silence)
No one...no, right, I agree. I agree, you're right, I'm...I'm sorry.
(leaves) _

Thinking about it as a type, trying to sort things out mentally

*2s line to 4 :laughing:*





_
Luella: well, my name is Lluella, I'm 37 years of age, I'm beautiful, I'm intelligent, I'm glamourous, I'm attractive, I'm warm, I'm sensitive, I'm caring, I'm rich, I'm sexy, I'm...I'm incredibly talented.
Winfrey: So what exactly is your problem, Luella?
Luella: I suffer from low self-esteem.
Winfrey: That's an absolute bugger, isn't it? And how does that manifest itself?
Luella: Well, I used to love myself, I used to think that I was great.
Winfrey: Oh, don't tell me you stopped thinking you were great; that would be heartbreaking!
Luella: Wwwwell, I stopped talking to myself, I stopped seeing myself for what I really am, I guess I started to take myself for granted.
....

Luella: I want you to stand in front of a mirror, take all your clothes off...no, I'm serious! It's what I did, you know, I stood naked in front of a mirror, I looked at myself, and I said, I love me! I love me for what I am; I love my whining aggression, I love my hideous suffocating self-pity, I love the fact that I'm a neurotic and that I demand the world's respect without having to do a single thing to earn it, I'm me, I'm special, I'm crazy about the way I am!_


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The Night's Queen said:


> Yeah lol, is there some Socionics intertype thing that explains this?
> Interesting that you ascribe it to your phrasing not being what I 'want to hear' :crying:
> I'm going to try to be very clear and plain with my language to try to get around the barrier. Not being mean just being clear as possible


That is how it comes across to me. Perhaps you feel the same way about me not liking how you put things. I do not know.

Clarity is ever a struggle for one who delves into the murky depths of the mind, and seeks to unveil a darker truth. I shall endeavor to do the same. 



The Night's Queen said:


> Ah, because I did not realize I was not present)


Fair enough. The discussion you and I had was one wherein I expressed mild skepticism, but I did not pursue it at that time. -_-



The Night's Queen said:


> Huh, that's...overkill to me
> I'd be curious to hear from other people! Never considered people were editing their posts before posting!


This was my impression, too, that this is how you view it. 



The Night's Queen said:


> Nooo, it's that you took my disclaimers as things with meaning of their own, completely changed the meaning of what I was saying.


I do not know what you mean. What disclaimers? How did I change the meaning, from what and to what?



The Night's Queen said:


> I meant get hit by a bus and die


Even so. And perhaps death is exactly what is needed; your death may be the catalyst for a wondrous thing to occur. For how many people in the world found the inspiration for great works in tragedy? And is death truly the end? "Death is nothing but the next great adventure."



The Night's Queen said:


> I do think experiences lead you to places you're supposed to be. But I don't think being good at a job you have in 20 years means that much; that's a quantity thing, what matters is the quality of the moments you're in.
> Increasing the value of moments throughout life is like gambling, maybe you will get the cash payout but you lose it all if - you die, or something goes wrong . . .
> 
> I don't think life circumstances being slightly different makes a big difference in overall happiness or more importantly joy - what matters is mindset, and that's always 'now'.
> 
> Wrote this for example:
> 
> _Loneliness is real. Loneliness is the only real thing there is. Everything else . . . a delusion, a trick of the light. Only in darkness are things as they really are. To be old is to be alone – but few prepare for this murky period of their lives, but only think (if they ever do think of it): when it comes to that, I will endure. Or else ‘I will have everything sorted out by then, the old are wise and so will I be’. And in fact, if I have discovered one thing in this life it is that people can and will endure situations they would have called impossible, if only because there is no other option. As for the other part of it, people do indeed sort their lives out – that is, they find husbands and wives, and bear children, and discover sources of livelihood and of happiness – but all of this can be knocked down with a single gust of wind, and the wind blows stronger as you reach the end of your path – for that way is near the sea. And I have never seen any evidence that the old are any wiser than the young or in fact the middle-aged. They appear wise because they endure, but they endure only because they must, and if they had the power they would certainly rearrange the world and trade their wisdom, as it is called, for the power and beauty of youth._


I do not see the world in terms of the quality of moments. Nor quantity, either. Moments simply are.

Indeed, I am mildly confused how this has anything to do with what I was saying.

As you say, "What matters is mindset, and that is always 'now'". This is very much what I endeavored to convey. How we look at the thing says much. I do think life experience matters in that it gives you a sort of reference point? To adopt a mindset, one must understand that mindset. Thus to stand outside your own, you must understand first that there are other ways of looking at it, which is an understanding that arises from life experience. If that makes sense? It matters, although not too terribly much since you can extrapolate from less experience to what more experience would look like. Ugh, now I know I am not being clear.




The Night's Queen said:


> meant that you were disagreeing with these as archetypes, and seems to be missing the point. For example, the idea of there being a 'worst part' of the 'princess' archetype *does not make sense*, as it is an *ideal*, and I thought you were referring to my leaving out 'spoiled/pampered' because you have that association with the word 'princess', when that was never part of the archetype and I only included that because I realize that some people have that association. For me I would consider these things archetypes, as they represent an ideal version of something strained away from its iterations in reality; ideal in the Platonic sense and in the normal sense. *It makes no sense to have an ideal that has a 'worst-side'.*
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not just word choice though, because you said:
> 
> 
> 
> which tells me that you are not talking about the archetype, but about your specific connotation with the phrase 'perfect princess' - am I wrong?


Sort of? The "perfect princess" is one who represents all the things that it means to be a princess, including being spoiled but also including being able to transcend that for the good of a kingdom. You appear to exclude those struggles that so much form the essence of the archetype, and in so doing I claim that you are not thinking in archetypes at all. I do think the word you chose - Ideal - is much better suited for what you are talking about, so I cede that you are being clear enough now. The word ideal did not occur to me to use to convey this point, but it seems that you have spotted what I mean regardless.

While I do not agree "that it makes no sense for an ideal to have a dark side" in that I do think the dark side is an admirable thing which drives forward the better elements of a person, and also serves as an inner reference point for truly understanding who you are...I take your point. Indeed, this is why I agree Ideal is a better word than Archetype. An Archetype does and indeed must include dark sides. An archetype is supposed to be talking about a "typical member" of something. You aren't striving to be a typical "perfect princess", you are striving to embody your own idealization of what a "perfect princess" SHOULD be. From my perspective, that is cherry picking the things you do and do not want from the archetype. I am NOT, however, saying something is wrong with that - I am saying that you are not thinking in archetypes at all. Thankfully your word fills the void and clarifies what you ARE talking about.

I am definitely thinking in terms of the archetype. A typical member of the term "perfect princess" must have a level of class which will automatically come across as snobbery to a person of much lower class, for example. Each trait will seem negative when viewed from a different angle. Therefore, to define "perfect princess", we cannot think in terms of "Only the things which are seen as good by everyone". Indeed, the very grace you demonstrated in that GIF would seem a bad thing to someone who is naturally clumsy and has decided they dislike "elegant showoffs" as a result. So if we must define the archetype outside of the judgment of what is good and bad in order to arrive at "typical member of the group" as defined...it means that you are not talking about archetypes at all, as your idealization necessarily involves a lack of the negative sides, as you have stated. By continuing to focus on good and bad, I am still thinking in archetypes.

Now, to bring us back around to the original point, which was to restate the thing you said you couldn't say more clearly. "You seek out the idealized forms of existing archetypes and then seek to embody those ideals in your own life in a way that matches your own preconceptions and your own needs and desires for being the best you can be". Does this capture the point you were making in the post with the princess GIF?


----------



## Dangerose

Have to go eat haha but you're using your own associations with the word 'princess', I never intended any of the other parts, just not part of what I was saying)
And every time you use the word I cringe more haha, hate that association, makes it hard to read your post :laughing:
Will respond later though))


----------



## owlet

Way Farer said:


> 8w9 seems too conflicted to me. I was thinking about that just when I was typing out which type I thought I was - it's strange how I'm thinking either 8 or 9, but not an 8w9 or a 9w8 lol.


I understand that, they're definitely pretty conflicted having two opposing attitudes on the go. I think 8w7 seems to work best for you, moreso than 9. Did you have thoughts on your instincts?

Also just a note that I've almost over-explored type 9 for myself and typed that way for quite a while, but I just don't relate to it really (which is also why I'm 451 rather than 459). The same happened with type 6, actually.


----------



## Dangerose

Way Farer said:


> Nothing against 5s at all, but @Immolate doesn't seem like a stick-in-the-mud the way 5s are. I think he's a great example of a 7, actually, which is why I put him on my thread about examples of enneagram types by using members here.
> 
> @The Night's Queen you give me an idea, though. If Immolate is like a type 5 to you, what does @brightflashes seem like to you?


I saw that, was staring about it for 30 seconds trying to decide what to do with that turn of events

brightflashes seems like a 9 to me. But that's just based off of immediate vibe and I'm not too fixed on that opinion.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Way Farer said:


> @*owlet* comes across as timid about herself, but pretty strong about surrounding matters. She is opinionated, doesn't back down from what she believes (without being overly aggressive). When I say timid, I don't mean uncertain. I mean hesitant to share too much. It seems as though she shares just what is needed and then stops, *almost to get a cue about whether or not she should go on.* I don't see anything that remotely looks like seeking attention and many of the things she says are succinct. That's why I believe she is accurately a wing 5. Another way to say it is that nothing sticks out as being "wrong" about her being a 4w5. If I find anything specific, I'll link to it.


Type 4s do not care that much about "cues." They are too self-absorbed. And it's most certainly not about whether someone _likes _who they are, or _wants _them to be that way. They are not that easily willing to let go of their identity for the sake of pleasing someone. 

3 =/= "seeking attention"

And your whole first sentence is very 9. They are quietly stubborn, that is how they are passive aggressive. They may have trouble asserting themselves so instead of saying "no" directly, it's more of an indirect "this is what I think/want." Like a "mountain" as they are often called. 4 is certainly not the only type to have "strong opinions."


----------



## Way Farer

Rose for a Heart said:


> And your whole first sentence is very 9.


Stop with the animosity. I know we disagree about your wing. If you would like to discuss my type, could you do it in a not so backhanded way? If you think I'm type 9, give me the evidence. I'm not going to be insulted because you say one sentence I've written out of every 25 is "very type 9" to you. So if you're trying to get to me, it's not working.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Way Farer said:


> Stop with the animosity. I know we disagree about your wing. If you would like to discuss my type, could you do it in a not so backhanded way? If you think I'm type 9, give me the evidence. I'm not going to be insulted because you say one sentence I've written out of every 25 is "very type 9" to you. So if you're trying to get to me, it's not working.


What on earth? I didn't even have your type in mind. You were just discussing owlet's type. I was trying to clear up any misconceptions about what a 4 is or what 9 apparently can't be.


----------



## Dangerose

:kitteh:


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> Type 4s do not care that much about "cues." They are too self-absorbed. And it's most certainly not about whether someone _likes _who they are, or _wants _them to be that way. They are not that easily willing to let go of their identity for the sake of pleasing someone.
> 
> 3 =/= "seeking attention"
> 
> And your whole first sentence is very 9. They are quietly stubborn, that is how they are passive aggressive. They may have trouble asserting themselves so instead of saying "no" directly, it's more of an indirect "this is what I think/want." Like a "mountain" as they are often called. 4 is certainly not the only type to have "strong opinions."


So all 4s are too self-absorbed to be concerned with cues? And why would working with cues instantly mean the person needs to be liked? I also don't know if you've noticed, but I don't exactly have issues with asserting myself. I write using indefinites because that's how I want to write, it has no deeper meaning.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> So all 4s are too self-absorbed to be concerned with cues? And why would working with cues instantly mean the person needs to be liked? I also don't know if you've noticed, but I don't exactly have issues with asserting myself. I write using indefinites because that's how I want to write, it has no deeper meaning.


Everyone is concerned with cues in some sense, but 3, 6, and 9 are absolutely the most concerned with cues in the way that @Way Farer was suggesting, a la 'do you want me to keep talking?' 
Of course you may not agree with that assessment of yourself.

Why do you want to write that way?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Way Farer said:


> @Lord Fenix Wulfheart
> 
> Have you considered type 1?


I have. Do you think it likely?

I don't especially strive for perfection. I do strive for clarity. I'm no great shakes at Enneagram, though. I don't really see the Oneness, but am I actually understanding Point One?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

owlet said:


> So all 4s are too self-absorbed to be concerned with cues?


No, but 4s _are _self-absorbed. Everyone cares about "cues," but 4's personality is certainly not structured to be formed around external cues. That is, they can be considerate like any other human being, but perhaps overall - less so because of the self-absorption.



> And why would working with cues instantly mean the person needs to be liked?


It means they are willing to adapt; 4s are not very adaptive. 



> I also don't know if you've noticed, but I don't exactly have issues with asserting myself. I write using indefinites because that's how I want to write, it has no deeper meaning.


It wasn't really a statement on how you are, I was just replying to what Way Farer said.


----------



## owlet

The Night's Queen said:


> Everyone is concerned with cues in some sense, but 3, 6, and 9 are absolutely the most concerned with cues in the way that @*Way Farer* was suggesting, a la 'do you want me to keep talking?'
> Of course you may not agree with that assessment of yourself.
> 
> Why do you want to write that way?


I think also people with social anxiety are extremely likely to focus on cues - it's not type-related. I'll just say, the arguments for 9 have pretty much been 'you're polite', 'you write using indefinites', 'you don't seek out conflict' and I can't be a type 4 because I'm not edgy or dramatic enough, or talk enough about inner darkness etc. which just isn't convincing, I'm afraid.

I write that way because it's how I talk, and it's how I talk because I take a while to think before verbalising.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Maybe it'd be good to make a new rule that if you want to suggest a type for someone you have to give some actual reasoning and evidence rather than just vibes or whims?


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> No, but 4s _are _self-absorbed. Everyone cares about "cues," but 4's personality is certainly not structured to be formed around external cues. That is, they can be considerate like any other human being, but perhaps overall - less so because of the self-absorption.


Where is the basis for this in an average/healthy type 4? Type 4s have a preoccupation with their 'ideal self' which may involve things like upholding a level of politeness, for example, or they may take part in introjection of traits such as focusing on social cues because they've seen others do well in the social environment using them and feel envious of that skill, so take it on themselves. Type 4 is self-absorbed, but being so doesn't mean they have to be thoughtless, selfish or socially inept.



> It means they are willing to adapt; 4s are not very adaptive.


I'm surprised type 4s can hold down a job, in that case.



> It wasn't really a statement on how you are, I was just replying to what Way Farer said.


Cool, okay, thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## Way Farer

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I have. Do you think it likely?
> 
> I don't especially strive for perfection. I do strive for clarity. I'm no great shakes at Enneagram, though. I don't really see the Oneness, but am I actually understanding Point One?


The reason I mention is that you seem to be good at picking out inconsistencies. It seems like type 1s have their PhD in inconsistencies. Type 5 could fit, though. Just wanted to throw it out there.
@Rose for a Heart 

I think clarity is in order here. I wasn't saying that 3 = attention seeking (though it can). I was saying that wing 5 does not = attention seeking. I have noticed 4s have been both adaptive, maladaptive, and stagnant.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> I'll just say, the arguments for 9 have pretty much been 'you're polite', 'you write using indefinites', 'you don't seek out conflict' and I can't be a type 4 because I'm not edgy or dramatic enough, or talk enough about inner darkness etc. which just isn't convincing, I'm afraid.


For you specifically - you are polite in a specifically inoffensive way. Any type can be polite - of course! - but your politeness seems to come from a 9 place, a habit of not wanting to rock the boat, you can say very stern things in a very nice way. Not a good argument for 9 by itself but a 9 pointer.

Writing using indefinitives is a better indicator of 9, not perfect but it points to a desire for moderation, not stirring the waters too much (you can easily hide behind 'I said a bit'), overall tendency towards moderation and vagueness, which I see in your personality generally.

'You don't seek out conflict' - specifically, you seem to avoid and be focused on dampening conflict whenever you see it arise. Not that you don't argue your points but you often seem to be playing the role of the 'peacekeeper' which is essentially 9 and certainly not 4.

What's especially un-4 is that you are generally not talking about yourself. Very few of your posts are primarily focused on yourself but on the general topic or theme at hand.

Who said you 'weren't edgy enough'?))) 
You do not appear focused on inner brokenness, on your dark side, on authenticity, identity, shame, etc. Maybe you secretly are and share none of it - I do not know. But since you do not show it, it is hard for the arguments for 4 to be convincing.



> I write that way because it's how I talk, and it's how I talk because I take a while to think before verbalising.


Perhaps just an introvert thing, but why do you take a while to think and why does that result in indefinitives?


----------



## Temizzle

Way Farer said:


> @Temizzle - Type 1
> Suggestions are based on some observations I've made since before I registered here.


What observations?


----------



## Tad Cooper

The Night's Queen said:


> For you specifically - you are polite in a specifically inoffensive way. Any type can be polite - of course! - but your politeness seems to come from a 9 place, a habit of not wanting to rock the boat, you can say very stern things in a very nice way. Not a good argument for 9 by itself but a 9 pointer.
> 
> Writing using indefinitives is a better indicator of 9, not perfect but it points to a desire for moderation, not stirring the waters too much (you can easily hide behind 'I said a bit'), overall tendency towards moderation and vagueness, which I see in your personality generally.
> 
> 'You don't seek out conflict' - specifically, you seem to avoid and be focused on dampening conflict whenever you see it arise. Not that you don't argue your points but you often seem to be playing the role of the 'peacekeeper' which is essentially 9 and certainly not 4.
> 
> What's especially un-4 is that you are generally not talking about yourself. Very few of your posts are primarily focused on yourself but on the general topic or theme at hand.
> 
> Who said you 'weren't edgy enough'?)))
> You do not appear focused on inner brokenness, on your dark side, on authenticity, identity, shame, etc. Maybe you secretly are and share none of it - I do not know. But since you do not show it, it is hard for the arguments for 4 to be convincing.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps just an introvert thing, but why do you take a while to think and why does that result in indefinitives?


Dude I write in a ton of indefinites and Im a 7 or an 8


----------



## Rose for a Heart

owlet said:


> Where is the basis for this in an average/healthy type 4?


You have yourself said:



> Type 4 is self-absorbed


And to quote a few sources:


> Enneagraminstitute:
> Expressive, Dramatic, *Self-Absorbed*, and Temperamental
> They typically have problems with melancholy, *self-indulgence, and self-pity*.
> to *maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before *attending to anything else
> More than any other type, Fours are *acutely aware of and focused on their personal differences and deficiencies*.
> *insistent individualist*: everything must be done on her own, in her own way, on her own terms. Fours’ mantra becomes *“I am myself. Nobody understands me. I am different and special,*”





> Katherine Fauvre Consulting
> Individualist, Artist, *Over-Analyzer*, Mystic or *Melodramatic Elitist*
> 
> Fours *feel their emotions deeply *and are not afraid to go emotionally where others fear to tread. This includes having an *exquisite, intuitive ability to distinguish between subtle emotions that others often miss. Painfully self-conscious, Fours are often overly focused on how different they are from others.
> *Nostalgic by nature, Fours often focus on past experiences. This can lead them to deeper insights or to downward spirals of melancholy and/or painful unresolved feelings. *Craving ideal circumstances or love, they often ruminate on what is missing and perceived to be important. Their tendency towards self-absorption is both an asset and liability.* It can lead the Four to deep personal insights that can benefit everyone while feeding their self-deprecating sense of humor; but it can also make them appear to be self centered and disinterested in others.


I mean, you get the point. All of those speak to me of self-absorption. You cannot really separate self-absorption from a 4. 




> but being so doesn't mean they have to be thoughtless, selfish or socially inept.


*Straw man*. I never said this.


----------



## Dangerose

Tad Cooper said:


> Dude I write in a ton of indefinites and Im a 7 or an 8


Fewer than her imo)
And I've no clue about your type; you are very mysterious to me)


----------



## Tad Cooper

Rose for a Heart said:


> You have yourself said:
> 
> 
> 
> And to quote a few sources:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, you get the point. All of those speak to me of self-absorption. You cannot really separate self-absorption from a 4.
> 
> 
> 
> *Straw man*. I never said this.


Your quotes dont say anything about being so self absorbed they miss cues etc though


----------



## Paradigm

The Night's Queen said:


> 7 and 8 don't seem right to me, you seem much more self-contained than these types


8w9 is pretty self-contained. My dad's a 8w9 SO/SP (ESTP) and, sure, he's friendly and outgoing, but he also spends literally ~9 hours largely silent each day, and doesn't React to the things he "should" (to a 1 fixer) and Reacts to the things he "shouldn't." He does tend to seek out attention if he doesn't get enough stimulation for a while, but I figured that was more his Se-Fe than his 8w9 or SOC stuff.

I could go on but tbh I'm not sure what to say. This post has no bearing on what I think your type is, @Tad Cooper. I failed to keep up on that topic >_<


----------



## brightflashes

caravel said:


> If I posted something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> What would be your initial impression in terms of type?


INTP 5w6

After reading the text (I hadn't read the metaphor text), INFJ 3w4 or 4w3.


----------



## owlet

The Night's Queen said:


> For you specifically - you are polite in a specifically inoffensive way. Any type can be polite - of course! - but your politeness seems to come from a 9 place, a habit of not wanting to rock the boat, you can say very stern things in a very nice way. Not a good argument for 9 by itself but a 9 pointer.
> 
> Writing using indefinitives is a better indicator of 9, not perfect but it points to a desire for moderation, not stirring the waters too much (you can easily hide behind 'I said a bit'), overall tendency towards moderation and vagueness, which I see in your personality generally.
> 
> 'You don't seek out conflict' - specifically, you seem to avoid and be focused on dampening conflict whenever you see it arise. Not that you don't argue your points but you often seem to be playing the role of the 'peacekeeper' which is essentially 9 and certainly not 4.
> 
> What's especially un-4 is that you are generally not talking about yourself. Very few of your posts are primarily focused on yourself but on the general topic or theme at hand.
> 
> Who said you 'weren't edgy enough'?)))
> You do not appear focused on inner brokenness, on your dark side, on authenticity, identity, shame, etc. Maybe you secretly are and share none of it - I do not know. But since you do not show it, it is hard for the arguments for 4 to be convincing.


I guess the issue here is I discuss myself and my personal life a lot with friends, but not on a public forum with relative strangers because I know the relative strangers won't care, or at least won't care in the 'right way'. As for conflict, squabbling is very tedious to deal with and I have no interest in it, but I enjoy actual discussions where points are put across clearly and reasonably.
The edgy comment is precisely because of what you said about not being focused on inner brokenness/ your dark side, which is a common misunderstanding about type 4. Type 4 isn't depressing and depressive, it's about being self-aware (when more healthy) and exploring your own emotions, and accepting them. Just because I don't talk about things like my depression, anxiety, social issues, phobias, Tragic Past(tm) etc. doesn't mean I haven't accepted them - I just see no reason to tell people unless it's relevant and/or I believe they'll care.



> Perhaps just an introvert thing, but why do you take a while to think and why does that result in indefinitives?


It's from way back when, so I don't remember how it came about. It's not an important point regardless.



Rose for a Heart said:


> You have yourself said:
> 
> And to quote a few sources:
> 
> I mean, you get the point. All of those speak to me of self-absorption. You cannot really separate self-absorption from a 4.


No, but I was asking about where the rejection of cues was mentioned. Being self-absorbed doesn't mean you don't notice cues.



> *Straw man*. I never said this.


That wasn't aimed at you (sorry, I should have been more clear) but it's a general attitude I've seen around.


----------



## Krayfish

caravel said:


> If I posted something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> What would be your initial impression in terms of type?


This is kind of vague for typing, but I guess the way the identity seems to be dealt with here is suggestive of a type 4 (internalized shame) or a type 2 (externalized shame but not so much an outward identity)


----------



## Paradigm

owlet said:


> The edgy comment is precisely because of what you said about not being focused on inner brokenness/ your dark side, which is a common misunderstanding about type 4. Type 4 isn't depressing and depressive, it's about being self-aware (when more healthy) and exploring your own emotions, and accepting them.


Sorry, but I can't let this go. *No *type is "about being self-aware" any more than any other type. And it's especially not about accepting your emotions. What you're describing is maturity and introspective skills - not a type. Let me repeat this: *not a type.* This is such a common reason for mistyping at 4 and it kinda needs to be corrected.

4 _is_, however, feeling alien. I hesitate to use self-absorbed because that could be any type, too, but it has a unique flavor of self-absorption, yes. @Animal can explain the type easier than me, maybe she'll be glad to do so instead. (Or just link to wherever you talked about it last, perhaps?)

Edit: I'm sorry if this comes off as rude. Really am. But it's a huge pet peeve of mine to assign such... interests or skills to a type. It's almost never type-based.


----------



## owlet

Paradigm said:


> Sorry, but I can't let this go. *No *type is "about being self-aware" any more than any other type. And it's especially not about accepting your emotions. What you're describing is maturity and introspective skills - not a type. Let me repeat this: *not a type.* This is such a common reason for mistyping at 4 and it kinda needs to be corrected.
> 
> 4 _is_, however, feeling alien. I hesitate to use self-absorbed because that could be any type, too, but it has a unique flavor of self-absorption, yes. @*Animal* can explain the type easier than me, maybe she'll be glad to do so instead. (Or just link to wherever you talked about it last, perhaps?)
> 
> Edit: I'm sorry if this comes off as rude. Really am. But it's a huge pet peeve of mine to assign such... interests or skills to a type. It's almost never type-based.





> Fours are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved. They are emotionally honest, creative, and personal, but can also be moody and self-conscious.


Source.


> Fours are the most self-aware of the types, and this is the basis of what is most positive and negative about them. The constant conflict we see in Fours is between their need to be aware of themselves, so they can find themselves, and, at the same time, their need to move beyond self-awareness, so they will not be trapped in self- consciousness.


Source.


> *At their best, Fours are creative, inspired, honest with themselves, emotionally strong, humane, self-aware, discrete, and self-renewing.*


Source.


> *Strengths*:
> 
> Expressive
> Sensitive to Feelings
> Self-Aware
> Appreciative of Beauty
> Empathetic
> Compassionate


Source.


> Individualists are self-aware and emotionally honest.


Source.


> "I've always had a strong sense os self-awareness, ever since I was a little boy."


Source.


> On the high side, they are highly sensitive to the emotional states of those they love, are non-judgmental (of everything except bad taste) and are unafraid of looking at the dark side of human nature.


Source.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

owlet said:


> The edgy comment is precisely because of what you said about not being focused on inner brokenness/ your dark side, which is a common misunderstanding about type 4.


Then tell me how you were at your unhealthiest? Did you share the "negative" concerns of the 4 when unhealthy? If not, there's no point in claiming that you are a healthier 4 (pardon my bluntness). 



> Type 4 isn't depressing and depressive, it's about being self-aware (when more healthy) and exploring your own emotions, and accepting them.


I agree that this can be any type, but I wouldn't hesitate to associate self awareness with type 4. In that sense that they know who they are better because they compulsively look at themselves, even the darkest corners. Most people don't really share this inclination since identity may not be their primary preoccupation. 



> Just because I don't talk about things like my depression, anxiety, social issues, phobias, Tragic Past(tm) etc. doesn't mean I haven't accepted them - I just see no reason to tell people unless it's relevant and/or I believe they'll care.


I am not sure 4 has much to do with "acceptance," to be honest. If you are talking about how they identify with their flaws, then I wouldn't expect a 4 to call that "acceptance" per se, more "this is who I am and it is an undeniable part of me. Taking it away would be like amputating me."



> No, but I was asking about where the rejection of cues was mentioned. Being self-absorbed doesn't mean you don't notice cues.


Ok, 4s don't have to be oblivious to cues, but I disagree with using "cares about cues" to type anyone at 4 (or 5).


----------



## Paradigm

owlet said:


> Source.
> Source.
> Source.
> Source.
> Source.
> Source.
> Source.


I disagree strongly with any descriptions which say that, then. Just like I think the ones that say 7s need to have fun and be positive _all _the time, or the ones that say 6 _need _to rely on something external (which most descriptions say)... I disagree. A lot.


----------



## Paradigm

Rose for a Heart said:


> I agree that this can be any type, but I wouldn't hesitate to associate self awareness with type 4. In that sense that they know who they are better because they compulsively look at themselves, even the darkest corners. Most people don't really share this inclination since identity may not be their primary preoccupation.


I'd say it's more like 4s, especially 4w5s, _think_ they know who they are and _think_ they're self-aware because they're compulsively looking at themselves. That doesn't mean they're immune to self-deception, and it certainly doesn't mean their ego defenses are less than any other type. We all have our idealized person we want to be, and many (even all) of us think we are partly that idealized self even when people who observe us say otherwise. It's human nature.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> I disagree strongly with any descriptions which say that, then. Just like I think the ones that say 7s need to have fun and be positive _all _the time, or the ones that say 6 _need _to rely on something external (which most descriptions say)... I disagree. A lot.


What sources do you find the most credible or insightful?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Paradigm said:


> I'd say it's more like 4s, especially 4w5s, _think_ they know who they are and _think_ they're self-aware because they're compulsively looking at themselves. That doesn't mean they're immune to self-deception, and it certainly doesn't mean their ego defenses are less than any other type. We all have our idealized person we want to be, and many (even all) of us think we are partly that idealized self even when people who observe us say otherwise. It's human nature.


Of course 
My claim wasn't that 4s are perfectly self-aware; just that they are aware of "who they are" (what they want, like, how they are feeling, what their shortcomings are, what their strengths are, etc.) more than others types. From what I have observed anyway.

EDIT: Why do you say "especially 4w5?"


----------



## Paradigm

Immolate said:


> What sources do you find the most credible or insightful?


I genuinely don't rely on any one source for type descriptions. I find certain sites/authors capture different types better than they do other types. 

If you wanna next ask me which 4 description is best, I'll have to get back to you later today :tongue:


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> I genuinely don't rely on any one source for type descriptions.* I find certain sites/authors capture different types better than they do other types. *
> 
> If you wanna next ask me which 4 description is best, *I'll have to get back to you later today* :tongue:


I'll be waiting around.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> I guess the issue here is I discuss myself and my personal life a lot with friends, but not on a public forum with relative strangers because I know the relative strangers won't care, or at least won't care in the 'right way'. As for conflict, squabbling is very tedious to deal with and I have no interest in it, but I enjoy actual discussions where points are put across clearly and reasonably.



That's fair.
Though - something else I notice about you - I think this is why I was wondering about 6 - you have a very high, specific bar for 'clearly and reasonably' - in my opinion it results in you ignoring good points, or seemingly never understanding what the other person was _trying_to say (good or not) because the first seeming logical inconsistency was not explained rationally right off - your tendency seems to be to want to intellectualize to the point of completely suppressing intuition, but I think this makes it more difficult for you to engage intellectually. This does not sound flattering I realize, and I am certainly describing it from an outside perspective, and it could be something else (N PoLR?) but it's a pretty consistent tendency with you. I don't know if it is a form of selective deafness (9) or across-the-board intellectualization (6,3,1?)

But overall I don't see 6.



> The edgy comment is precisely because of what you said about not being focused on inner brokenness/ your dark side, which is a common misunderstanding about type 4.


Ok, well, didn't use the word edgy lol, 9s can be plenty edgy 
I know you were just using the word edgy to turn my point into a strawman, but I would possibly argue that it is a 6/9 concept, just from personal experience, see 6s and 9s labelling things 'edgy' pretty often and I think they are often also the type to have this as part of their self-image.

But 4 is focused on inner brokenness and the dark side. That's not a common misunderstanding, that's part of the type. It's about the broken mirrors inside, and I guess their sharp edges.




> Type 4 isn't depressing and depressive, it's about being self-aware (when more healthy) and exploring your own emotions, and accepting them.


Your toggle switch on depressing/healthy is in itself not 4. 
Your focus on being self-aware is 9. 
Your focus on _accepting_ emotions makes sense for a type that _doesn't_ naturally accept emotions. 

I think you are confusing your search as a 9 for greater awareness and acceptance yourself for a 4 who naturally lives in that world and has other destructive mechanisms (which you seem free of) to deal with. 



> Just because I don't talk about things like my depression, anxiety, social issues, phobias, Tragic Past(tm) etc. doesn't mean I haven't accepted them - I just see no reason to tell people unless it's relevant and/or I believe they'll care.


depression, anxiety, phobias, are mental issues, not Enneagram issues
social issues could be but they could also be literally any other type depending on what you mean.
Tragic Past (tm) is just a life situation thing.

Accepting these things has absolutely nothing to do with 4. Acceptance is more of a 9/1 concept.
'no reason to tell people' is not 4, self-exploration is usually the best reason around for a 4))
'unless it's relevant' - to who? you or them? A 4s internal issues are always relevant to them. 
'believe they're care' - stretching this a little but 9 has trouble believing other people will care, and is naturally apathetic anyways so it's a closer theme to 9 than 4.
Though yes this can be a 4 thing. Your framing of it does not seem 4.



> No, but I was asking about where the rejection of cues was mentioned. Being self-absorbed doesn't mean you don't notice cues.


No, but an other-focused type like 9 is going to be a lot more _receptive_ and _focused_ on cues than a self-focused 4.


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> Then tell me how you were at your unhealthiest? Did you share the "negative" concerns of the 4 when unhealthy? If not, there's no point in claiming that you are a healthier 4 (pardon my bluntness).


I don't want to talk about that here, but I do relate to it when I have been in that position.



> I agree that this can be any type, but I wouldn't hesitate to associate self awareness with type 4. In that sense that they know who they are better because they compulsively look at themselves, even the darkest corners. Most people don't really share this inclination since identity may not be their primary preoccupation.


It's difficult because often 4 gets equated with depression, or other melancholic mental illnesses, which involve a lot of 'stewing' in emotions (because it's simply not possible to get out of them when you're dealing with something like that), whereas while the 4 may keep going back to their emotions to understand themselves, it's just that - to understand themselves better and work out who 'they' are.



> I am not sure 4 has much to do with "acceptance," to be honest. If you are talking about how they identify with their flaws, then I wouldn't expect a 4 to call that "acceptance" per se, more "this is who I am and it is an undeniable part of me. Taking it away would be like amputating me."


What you described in that last part is acceptance - it's going 'this is who I am' rather than feeling ashamed of their differences.



> Ok, 4s don't have to be oblivious to cues, but I disagree with using "cares about cues" to type anyone at 4 (or 5).


I was talking with my friend about this earlier and she sent me this from Maitri:


> "To avoid the disgrace and resulting loss of self-respect that they fear will result from exposing themselves, many Fours withdraw, becoming aloof and distant, and holding themselves apart from others. Their movement away is usually blamed on those they are isolating themselves from, and perpetuates their sense of estrangement. They also become reserved, revealing little about themselves and coming across to others as very composed, private, and constrained. They become, in a word,self-controlling, as we see on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11. They are careful about what they express and how they behave. Every move is filtered through an inner censor, and the result is a studied, restrained, and often stilted manner. A sense of formality, decorousness, even primness as well as an affectedness and a sense of posturing is often the result. Like the horse, the animal associated with this type, they present an image of controlled elegance, restrained power. There is,obviously, little room for spontaneity in the behavior and, more important, in the inner life of a Four.On a social level, the world of protocols, codes of behavior, rules of conduct, formalities, and correct form are the Four’s province. Diplomatically getting a message across without voicing it directly, indirectly communicating anything that might be conflictual or regarded as improper are realms in which the Four excels. Japanese culture, in which strict protocols govern all aspects of interaction, exemplifies this Four-ish characteristic. "


(Apologies for the weird formatting, it was copied from a PDF.)



Paradigm said:


> I disagree strongly with any descriptions which say that, then. Just like I think the ones that say 7s need to have fun and be positive _all _the time, or the ones that say 6 _need _to rely on something external (which most descriptions say)... I disagree. A lot.


Which would you recommend as a good source for type 4?


----------



## Paradigm

Rose for a Heart said:


> Of course
> My claim wasn't that 4s are perfectly self-aware; just that they are aware of "who they are" (what they want, like, how they are feeling, what their shortcomings are, what their strengths are, etc.) more than others types. From what I have observed anyway.


I'm sometimes half robot/Vulcan, can you explain how that's an "of course"? It sounds like you're going against what I'm saying -- which is perfectly fine if you are (disagreements are fine/healthy) -- but you started like you weren't disagreeing at first and now I'm just confused.



> EDIT: Why do you say "especially 4w5?"


Depends on the person, really. That was kind of a hyperbole, if I'm honest. 4w5 has a withdrawn wing on top of the withdrawn type so it can sometimes lead to a person being so withdrawn it feels like they're "more right" in their introspections. That, or worst case scenario (_which I am not saying is happening here_) the ideal of 4w5 being more accurately self-aware is a tempting stereotype to try to live up to.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Reading about the feeling alien thing, I wonder which other types may struggle with it as to be honest that thing hits uncomfortably close home to me. That thing has chased me since I was a kid so I'm really curious now if I've ditched some type just because it's harder to see thanks to being a thinking type.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

owlet said:


> I don't want to talk about that here, but I do relate to it when I have been in that position.


That's fine, but we can only give feedback on what we see. How to use it, is upto you. 




> What you described in that last part is acceptance - it's going 'this is who I am' rather than feeling ashamed of their differences.


The fact that "acceptance" speaks more to you than what I said, suggests to me that you do not share the identity fixation of a 4. Acceptance implies choice, and identifying with their shortcomings and flaws is so instinctive, it's immediate - the 4 doesn't really believe she has much of a choice. Until perhaps she has done a lot of work on herself. 




> I was talking with my friend about this earlier and she sent me this from Maitri:


That sounds more like a 1 description 



Paradigm said:


> I'm sometimes half robot/Vulcan, can you explain how that's an "of course"? It sounds like you're going against what I'm saying -- which is perfectly fine if you are (disagreements are fine/healthy) -- but you started like you weren't disagreeing at first and now I'm just confused.


I agree with you that being "self-aware" cannot be used to type someone at 4, but I do relate certain qualities to type 4, including self-awareness (in the sense that I described earlier). I agree that 4s have their own defenses, like anyone else, but they are so peculiarly focused on their uniqueness and identity, that the "this is who I am!" comes across pretty clearly.


----------



## Dangerose

Dragheart Luard said:


> Reading about the feeling alien thing, I wonder which other types may struggle with it as to be honest that thing hits uncomfortably close home to me. That thing has chased me since I was a kid so I'm really curious now if I've ditched some type just because it's harder to see thanks to being a thinking type.


Well to begin I think everyone can to some extent:










(Lewis I think - 1 or 9, perhaaps 6?)

Can relate also and I don't think I have 4 in my tritype, maybe as a line...

Seen some interesting posts from @Stellafera about so/sp feeling disconnected from other people or...not sure how to summarize, but I think so/sp and maybe other counterflow types?

Think it can be a variety of things in general, including some non-type things (literal experience of being a foreigner or different with no great typology explanation)


----------



## owlet

The Night's Queen said:


> That's fair.
> Though - something else I notice about you - I think this is why I was wondering about 6 - you have a very high, specific bar for 'clearly and reasonably' - in my opinion it results in you ignoring good points, or seemingly never understanding what the other person was _trying_to say (good or not) because the first seeming logical inconsistency was not explained rationally right off - your tendency seems to be to want to intellectualize to the point of completely suppressing intuition, but I think this makes it more difficult for you to engage intellectually. This does not sound flattering I realize, and I am certainly describing it from an outside perspective, and it could be something else (N PoLR?) but it's a pretty consistent tendency with you. I don't know if it is a form of selective deafness (9) or across-the-board intellectualization (6,3,1?)
> 
> But overall I don't see 6.


Honestly, it doesn't matter if it's flattering or not. I do have standards for people putting their points across, especially in terms of actually having reasoning which holds up when compared to sources, rather than conjecture. If the person can't put in the time to have a discussion with me and explain their point clearly, I don't have the time (or inclination) to deal with them. When I talk with people, I put a lot of effort into i.e. forming a comprehensive argument and/or finding sources, as well as answering questions when the person doesn't understand. I've been perfectly fine talking with the vast majority of people in this way, so I don't believe it's an issue with me being unable to 'engage intellectually'. It's neither selective deafness nor across-the-board intellectualisation, it's just expecting people in a discussion to put some effort in.



> Ok, well, didn't use the word edgy lol, 9s can be plenty edgy
> I know you were just using the word edgy to turn my point into a strawman, but I would possibly argue that it is a 6/9 concept, just from personal experience, see 6s and 9s labelling things 'edgy' pretty often and I think they are often also the type to have this as part of their self-image.
> 
> But 4 is focused on inner brokenness and the dark side. That's not a common misunderstanding, that's part of the type. It's about the broken mirrors inside, and I guess their sharp edges.


Saying 'I know you were doing this because x' is very passive-aggressive, please don't do that (it's also making assumptions about my motivations). I personally don't trust your typing, so your personal experience isn't reliable in terms of exemplifying a type for me.

With type 4, they're focused on feeling defective and shameful about that - look at the quote from Maitri.



> Your toggle switch on depressing/healthy is in itself not 4.
> Your focus on being self-aware is 9.
> Your focus on _accepting_ emotions makes sense for a type that _doesn't_ naturally accept emotions.
> 
> I think you are confusing your search as a 9 for greater awareness and acceptance yourself for a 4 who naturally lives in that world and has other destructive mechanisms (which you seem free of) to deal with.


If you provide no reasoning, this isn't a discussion it's just you throwing types at me.



> depression, anxiety, phobias, are mental issues, not Enneagram issues
> social issues could be but they could also be literally any other type depending on what you mean.
> Tragic Past (tm) is just a life situation thing.


I thought 4s were about inner brokenness :tongue:



> Accepting these things has absolutely nothing to do with 4. Acceptance is more of a 9/1 concept.
> 'no reason to tell people' is not 4, self-exploration is usually the best reason around for a 4))
> 'unless it's relevant' - to who? you or them? A 4s internal issues are always relevant to them.
> 'believe they're care' - stretching this a little but 9 has trouble believing other people will care, and is naturally apathetic anyways so it's a closer theme to 9 than 4.
> Though yes this can be a 4 thing. Your framing of it does not seem 4.


I can explore myself perfectly well without input from people I don't believe actually care either way. To me - I choose what's relevant to tell people about myself because it's information about myself.
Believing they can't be understood is 4 - caring is part of understanding.



> No, but an other-focused type like 9 is going to be a lot more _receptive_ and _focused_ on cues than a self-focused 4.


See the quote by Maitri. I'm also not interested in discussing this further with you unless you can be more open-minded.


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> That's fine, but we can only give feedback on what we see. How to use it, is upto you.


Yes, but when I posted here earlier, I asked Way Farer for input, not other people.



> The fact that "acceptance" speaks more to you than what I said, suggests to me that you do not share the identity fixation of a 4. Acceptance implies choice, and identifying with their shortcomings and flaws is so instinctive, it's immediate - the 4 doesn't really believe she has much of a choice. Until perhaps she has done a lot of work on herself.


There is a choice: either you accept that's who you are, or you feel ashamed of yourself for not being who you could be. That's type 4.



> That sounds more like a 1 description


Well, it's p.96 of Spiritual Dimensions by Maitri, in the chapter on type 4.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Night's Queen said:


> Well to begin I think everyone can to some extent:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Lewis I think - 1 or 9, perhaaps 6?)
> 
> Can relate also and I don't think I have 4 in my tritype, maybe as a line...
> 
> Seen some interesting posts from @*Stellafera* about so/sp feeling disconnected from other people or...not sure how to summarize, but I think so/sp and maybe other counterflow types?
> 
> Think it can be a variety of things in general, including some non-type things (literal experience of being a foreigner or different with no great typology explanation)


I think I'm contra flow and I'm sure of being INTJ, so that contributes to feeling like a weirdo that has not much in common with other people, but yeah I wonder if it's just that or a clue of whatever is my core type. I will think a bit more and see if something starts making sense now.


----------



## Immolate

Dragheart Luard said:


> I think I'm contra flow and I'm sure of being INTJ, so that contributes to feeling like a weirdo that has not much in common with other people, but yeah I wonder if it's just that or a clue of whatever is my core type. I will think a bit more and see if something starts making sense now.


If I remember correctly, you've considered 1, 7 and more recently 8. Are these out of the running?


----------



## Paradigm

@owlet @Immolate 

I apologize if this is what you meant, _but_, realizing that most 4s are not super Healthy and thus not as self-aware as claimed would be accurate. So EI's description is... _okay _if you put these together:


> Healthy Fours are honest with themselves: they own all of their feelings and can look at their motives, contradictions, and emotional conflicts without denying or whitewashing them.
> ...
> They attempt to compensate for this by cultivating a Fantasy Self—an idealized self-image which is built up primarily in their imaginations.
> ...
> In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are.


Which is to say, the majority of 4s - since most people are average health - are not going to be as self-aware as advertised.


----------



## owlet

Paradigm said:


> @*owlet* @*Immolate*
> 
> I apologize if this is what you meant, _but_, realizing that most 4s are not super Healthy and thus not as self-aware as claimed would be accurate. So EI's description is... _okay _if you put these together:
> 
> Which is to say, the majority of 4s - since most people are average health - are not going to be as self-aware as advertised.


Oh no, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding, actually! I definitely agree that type 4 can and are self-deceptive or dishonest/exaggerating (and often are in the average/lower levels of health due to introjection of favourable characteristics in order to become closer to their 'ideal' self). It's just that 4s at the higher levels of health will be self-aware in an honest way, accepting even things they previously found shameful about themselves.


----------



## star tripper

The Night's Queen said:


> Well to begin I think everyone can to some extent:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Lewis I think - 1 or 9, perhaaps 6?)
> 
> Can relate also and I don't think I have 4 in my tritype, maybe as a line...
> 
> Seen some interesting posts from @Stellafera about so/sp feeling disconnected from other people or...not sure how to summarize, but I think so/sp and maybe other counterflow types?
> 
> Think it can be a variety of things in general, including some non-type things (literal experience of being a foreigner or different with no great typology explanation)


Sorry it looks like I keep quoting you but I wanted to expand on contraflow.

Contraflow can definitely account for that alien feeling (though arguably it's just human nature). When you go to a party or a gathering, it's absurdly easy to pick out those who are synflow and those who are contraflow. There are those who bring others together instinctively and those who break groups apart instinctively. My best friend is a motherfucking 9!!! and she breaks groups apart. As a so/sp 9, she is mighty anxious in a group setting and so she ends up either leaving the group to get her bearings or pulling me out of the group as a source of comfort. I, too, habitually break up groups. I get fixated on one person in a group and pull them away, perhaps on a social pretense. I can actually use a group to get this one person alone. It's like a sickness.

On the other hand, my so/sx friends use their sx connections to lure people into a group setting. They have a much more communal attitude. They pull people IN in order to accomplish their primary neurosis. As a result, my so/sx SO will lure me into a group setting in order to ease his social anxiety... which works out for me because once his anxiety is eased, he likes when I pull him back out of the crowd, but the point is his instinct is to go TOWARD these people where mine is at best withdrawing from them and at worst actively antagonizing and challenging people. 

Both of these instincts can lead to feeling alien but given that society teaches us that human nature is COMMUNAL, it's easy for a contraflow to feel less human for naturally possessing the exact opposite instinct.

Now all of that said, I also think other types can be prone to this feeling for a variety of reasons. 4 and 5 are the obvious aliens with the former focusing on lacking some kind of basic human facet and the latter feeling as though they were tossed into the world without a handbook. A 6 can easily feel that way by virtue of being a doubtful attachment type, 8 being unable to get in touch with vulnerability, etc. Essentially, "feeling alien" can be experienced in different ways while still being under the same umbrella. So to people out there who may incorporate that element into their typing process, really analyze what exactly makes you experience that alien-among-humans experience. Because my 9w8 so/sp friend will describe something different from my 4w3 sp/so friend.

Edit: I should say I know syn and contra aren't literally defined by grouping together, but that a party is a very easy way to see instinctive direction.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Honestly, it doesn't matter if it's flattering or not. I do have standards for people putting their points across, especially in terms of actually having reasoning which holds up when compared to sources, rather than conjecture. If the person can't put in the time to have a discussion with me and explain their point clearly, I don't have the time (or inclination) to deal with them. When I talk with people, I put a lot of effort into i.e. forming a comprehensive argument and/or finding sources, as well as answering questions when the person doesn't understand. I've been perfectly fine talking with the vast majority of people in this way, so I don't believe it's an issue with me being unable to 'engage intellectually'. It's neither selective deafness nor across-the-board intellectualisation, it's just expecting people in a discussion to put some effort in.


Do you understand a difference between 'putting some effort in' and conforming perfectly to _your_ arbitrary standards about what a good argument should be? 
I personally do put a lot of effort into explaining my points using logic, examples, etc. I don't enjoy tying everything back to a source because it is extremely time-consuming, potentially misleading (easy to take a quote out of context to drive home a point) and I don't think the Enneagram authors are gods. 
A conversation is a two-way street, as well as the other person explaining their point clearly the person listen has to make the slightest effort to understand what they are saying. Rejecting something because it wasn't formatted the way you like it is lazy, when you could be arguing on the merit of the point. You don't know if it's a good argument or a bad argument, you just know it didn't pass quality assurance. Even though you gush about source-less posts with no logical reasoning that you happen to agree with :/



> Saying 'I know you were doing this because x' is very passive-aggressive, please don't do that (it's also making assumptions about my motivations).


Please don't school me on how to engage in discussions on here. You put words in my mouth to twist my point. If you were not attempting to create a strawman it reflects very poorly on your understanding.



> I personally don't trust your typing, so your personal experience isn't reliable in terms of exemplifying a type for me.


Fair enough, was more of a side note.


> With type 4, they're focused on feeling defective and shameful about that - look at the quote from Maitri.


That was my point?




> If you provide no reasoning, this isn't a discussion it's just you throwing types at me.


Can you _really_ not connect the dots on this one?



> Your toggle switch on depressing/healthy is in itself not 4.


Because 4s do not divide the world into 'dark, depressing, moody, edgy' and 'happy, sunny, healthy, bright', because 4s are extremely unlikely to reject things on the sole baseness of their darkness, depressiveness (this is a 6 or 9 trait), they may be against darkness and depression for the sake of it, as being inauthentic.




> Your focus on being self-aware is 9.


Because 9s are asleep to themselves and self-awareness is _difficult_ for 9s but in the _forefront_ for 4s.



> Your focus on accepting emotions makes sense for a type that doesn't naturally accept emotions.


Because 4s don't reject emotions in the first place or are at least _extremely_ unlikely to see themselves this way, because 9s are focused on 'acceptance' in the sense of 'accepting emotions, accepting reality'. 



> I thought 4s were about inner brokenness :tongue:


:dry:



> See the quote by Maitri. I'm also not interested in discussing this further with you unless you can be more open-minded.


k miss owlet ill go sit in the back of the class and practice my times tables


----------



## owlet

The Night's Queen said:


> Do you understand a difference between 'putting some effort in' and conforming perfectly to _your_ arbitrary standards about what a good argument should be?
> I personally do put a lot of effort into explaining my points using logic, examples, etc. I don't enjoy tying everything back to a source because it is extremely time-consuming, potentially misleading (easy to take a quote out of context to drive home a point) and I don't think the Enneagram authors are gods.


Okay, I'll clarify: saying 'you're this type because of these behavioural correlations' isn't putting effort in, in my book.
The enneagram authors are not gods, but they've certainly studied the system more than most people here and so have a better understanding of it. If you're not going from the theory, you can just make stuff up based on anecdotes.



> A conversation is a two-way street, as well as the other person explaining their point clearly the person listen has to make the slightest effort to understand what they are saying. Rejecting something because it wasn't formatted the way you like it is lazy, when you could be arguing on the merit of the point. You don't know if it's a good argument or a bad argument, you just know it didn't pass quality assurance. Even though you gush about source-less posts with no logical reasoning that you happen to agree with :/


When did I say I reject the argument if it's not formatted a certain way? Also, where have I gushed about source-less posts?



> Please don't school me on how to engage in discussions on here. You put words in my mouth to twist my point. If you were not attempting to create a strawman it reflects very poorly on your understanding.


This is a catch-22 statement to force me into the corner of either having made a strawman or concluding my understanding was poor. You can decide on either, I don't really care.



> Can you _really_ not connect the dots on this one?
> 
> Because 4s do not divide the world into 'dark, depressing, moody, edgy' and 'happy, sunny, healthy, bright', because 4s are extremely unlikely to reject things on the sole baseness of their darkness, depressiveness (this is a 6 or 9 trait), they may be against darkness and depression for the sake of it, as being inauthentic.
> 
> Because 9s are asleep to themselves and self-awareness is _difficult_ for 9s but in the _forefront_ for 4s.
> 
> Because 4s don't reject emotions in the first place or are at least _extremely_ unlikely to see themselves this way, because 9s are focused on 'acceptance' in the sense of 'accepting emotions, accepting reality'.


I would thank you for the elaboration, but your attitude doesn't deserve gratitude. Instead, I'll ask if you can explain very precisely how I fit into type 9 over type 4 in this way, as well as bringing in the quote from Maitri and if you don't want to/can't, there's no point in you replying.



> k miss owlet ill go sit in the back of the class and practice my times tables


So mature.


----------



## owlet

@The Night's Queen I'm not going to discuss this with you further, as you obviously aren't feeling any more open-minded so it's a waste of time.


----------



## Brains

Way Farer said:


> @Brains - Type 3 seems much more likely for you. @mAAd city - Type 6


Any reasons why?


----------



## Paradigm

owlet said:


> Oh no, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding, actually! I definitely agree that type 4 can and are self-deceptive or dishonest/exaggerating (and often are in the average/lower levels of health due to introjection of favourable characteristics in order to become closer to their 'ideal' self). It's just that 4s at the higher levels of health will be self-aware in an honest way, accepting even things they previously found shameful about themselves.


Yeah, that's true. I'm glad we came to an understanding 
that sounds awkward wtffff


----------



## owlet

Paradigm said:


> Yeah, that's true. I'm glad we came to an understanding
> that sounds awkward wtffff


No, no, it's cool


----------



## Rose for a Heart

- I have never seen 4s being equated with "depression and other mental illnesses." Anybody can be ill.
- If you can see the self-deception of 4s more easily than an actual 4 would, you are probably not a 4.
- If you believe you are just a healthy version of a type, double check yourself.
- Everyone, even 4s, don't know themselves that well. There will ALWAYS be defenses when someone suggests a type you don't think you are. Instead of being defensive, reflect on why you want to be defensive.
- Relating superficially to types is a mockery of the enneagram.
- Your intuition is usually 10 steps ahead of you, pay attention to it.
- Pervasive behavioral patterns that are "essentially human" may not be conclusive in typing someone, but it IS a reflection of their core personality and should not be discarded. These things add up and create the gestalt that is referred to as personality.
- Reading several books doesn't make you aware of what the enneagram is trying to tell you. Someone who has barely read any might be able to make better arguments simply because they don't lie to themselves anymore.
- Many authors seem to include something peculiar about a type that may not necessarily be agreed to across the board. If you are going to argue using such a unique perspective, you will need more than just that one perspective. 
- Don't pick things that you agree with and ignore things you don't like. It might be hard to do at first but feedback allows for greater or a more whole understanding of yourself. 

I know a lot of these are easier said than done, but I thought I might share anyway.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Immolate said:


> If I remember correctly, you've considered 1, 7 and more recently 8. Are these out of the running?


I considered type 5 years ago as well, but later I suspected that anything 5 like was just me being an INTJ. The other options took more introspection, but at this point I wonder if I've discarded other types too soon.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Okay, I'll clarify: saying 'you're this type because of these behavioural correlations' isn't putting effort in, in my book.


It's something, though.
Not saying I have the best arguments, but I haven't seen a single good reason for you to be a 4. 
Not on behavior, not on what you relate to, nothing.
In my book something is better than nothing.



> The enneagram authors are not gods, but they've certainly studied the system more than most people here and so have a better understanding of it. If you're not going from the theory, you can just make stuff up based on anecdotes.


I am going from the theory, I've read and studied. I'm not tying everything I say back to what an author said; there's a difference.
It's possible not everything I think is correlated is correlated - probable even - but I'm not 'making stuff up'. I'm explaining what I think in the best way I know how to do so.



> When did I say I reject the argument if it's not formatted a certain way? Also, where have I gushed about source-less posts?


You didn't say it in so many words, but it is your attitude here and elsewhere.
For the second one i may have been mixing you up with Tad Cooper, at least the one incident I remember turned out to be her, looked it up, sorry (



> This is a catch-22 statement to force me into the corner of either having made a strawman or concluding my understanding was poor. You can decide on either, I don't really care.


That was the intention. Is there a third option?



> I would thank you for the elaboration, but your attitude doesn't deserve gratitude. Instead, I'll ask if you can explain very precisely how I fit into type 9 over type 4 in this way, as well as bringing in the quote from Maitri and if you don't want to/can't, there's no point in you replying.


Because you were the one who brought up these things in the first place.

About Maitri, let's zoom back and see what else she said:









Explain how these things which she specifically said applied to _all_ Fours, apply to you, please.



> So mature.





owlet said:


> @The Night's Queen I'm not going to discuss this with you further, as you obviously aren't feeling any more open-minded so it's a waste of time.


This is a goshdarned annoying attitude


----------



## owlet

@The Night's Queen I don't feel like I need to justify my typing to you and I honestly don't care if you believe I'm ESTP 8w7 - I'm not interested in discussing this further with you as I don't see it going anywhere and, based on your first paragraph, you're not being more open-minded and so it would be a waste of my time to respond in more detail.

I will, however, happily respond to other people who have any questions or insights.


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> Sorry it looks like I keep quoting you but I wanted to expand on contraflow.
> 
> Contraflow can definitely account for that alien feeling (though arguably it's just human nature). When you go to a party or a gathering, it's absurdly easy to pick out those who are synflow and those who are contraflow. There are those who bring others together instinctively and those who break groups apart instinctively. My best friend is a motherfucking 9!!! and she breaks groups apart. As a so/sp 9, she is mighty anxious in a group setting and so she ends up either leaving the group to get her bearings or pulling me out of the group as a source of comfort. I, too, habitually break up groups. I get fixated on one person in a group and pull them away, perhaps on a social pretense. I can actually use a group to get this one person alone. It's like a sickness.
> 
> On the other hand, my so/sx friends use their sx connections to lure people into a group setting. They have a much more communal attitude. They pull people IN in order to accomplish their primary neurosis. As a result, my so/sx SO will lure me into a group setting in order to ease his social anxiety... which works out for me because once his anxiety is eased, he likes when I pull him back out of the crowd, but the point is his instinct is to go TOWARD these people where mine is at best withdrawing from them and at worst actively antagonizing and challenging people.
> 
> Both of these instincts can lead to feeling alien but given that society teaches us that human nature is COMMUNAL, it's easy for a contraflow to feel less human for naturally possessing the exact opposite instinct.
> 
> Now all of that said, I also think other types can be prone to this feeling for a variety of reasons. 4 and 5 are the obvious aliens with the former focusing on lacking some kind of basic human facet and the latter feeling as though they were tossed into the world without a handbook. A 6 can easily feel that way by virtue of being a doubtful attachment type, 8 being unable to get in touch with vulnerability, etc. Essentially, "feeling alien" can be experienced in different ways while still being under the same umbrella. So to people out there who may incorporate that element into their typing process, really analyze what exactly makes you experience that alien-among-humans experience. Because my 9w8 so/sp friend will describe something different from my 4w3 sp/so friend.
> 
> Edit: I should say I know syn and contra aren't literally defined by grouping together, but that a party is a very easy way to see instinctive direction.


Thanks so much; this is so interesting!
(sorry I haven't been responding better btw - been super out of it the last few days and having enormous trouble trying to get my thoughts all in one place)

_____________

can relate to both the party instincts 
On the one hand always related to this about Beta quadra:



> When larger social events are organized by Betas (such as parties, receptions etc), they show an inclination to promote activities that will lead to the guests involved as a single group, such as games and shows; dislike for the "quieter" form of events where guests tend to quietly form smaller groups in more intimate atmospheres, which Betas tend to see as boring.


Makes me legitimately super uncomfortable to be say in a room trying to read or use the Internet, play piano or something, when other people in the room are doing something else, I'm too aware of the attention going different ways, I can do my own thing in my own room but...

But on the other hand I do tend to break off into smaller conversations, for example I remember my 3 friend getting really mad at me that...well, she invited this maddeningly handsome INTJ like so-last 358 tritype guy that the first two hours I just made him talk about his boring boring job as an investor and explain everything to me lol, and the rest of the group did not know how to have their own conversations so they were forced to listen to it, then we did break off with my ESTP 6 friend to discuss nature of morality, 3 friend was furious at me for not talking about party topics and not talking to everyone

I tried at first but they would not take any bait and just sat there like uncatchable fish not jumping onto any topic at all

Just a side note lol, I get that the point was not literal parties)


----------



## Dangerose

@owlet yeah I'm not being open-minded. Neither are you btw. It's not really a virtue.

You can type however you want. But I'm right and you're wrong and I'm pretty sure you know it on some level. Show me some evidence for 4 and maybe I'll change my mind - probably not, maybe. With the information you have presented to the forum - you are a 9, point blank. 

You've shown absolutely nothing that is legitimately 4, only things that could be twisted to fit type 4 if seen out of context. 

I won't continue discussing your type if you do not want me to. I've said about everything I can say. But I am not going to pretend I see you as any sort of example of a 4. Everything you do and say here is classic 9. I don't know how you're missing it.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Another thing I have been curious about - is there really such a thing as the identity fixation of 4s not coming through, because someone "doesn't share how they feel"? Wouldn't it still come through anyway?


----------



## owlet

The Night's Queen said:


> @*owlet* yeah I'm not being open-minded. Neither are you btw. It's not really a virtue.
> 
> You can type however you want. But I'm right and you're wrong and I'm pretty sure you know it on some level. Show me some evidence for 4 and maybe I'll change my mind - probably not, maybe. With the information you have presented to the forum - you are a 9, point blank.
> 
> You've shown absolutely nothing that is legitimately 4, only things that could be twisted to fit type 4 if seen out of context.
> 
> I won't continue discussing your type if you do not want me to. I've said about everything I can say. But I am not going to pretend I see you as any sort of example of a 4. Everything you do and say here is classic 9. I don't know how you're missing it.


Except, you know, the fact I explored 9 very thoroughly and typed that way for quite a while until I looked into it more deeply and found I didn't relate to the core aspects of self-forgetting and numbing out. I know myself better than you - there's no argument to be made on that front. The fact you would dismiss my understanding of myself for your impression is quite arrogant, honestly. I don't talk to you about personal stuff, I don't want to. I want to discuss things that matter to me with people who matter to me. It's that simple.

As I said, I don't care if you see me as 9 - do it to your heart's content - but don't talk to me about not being open-minded.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Dracobane said:


> Not my post, but @owlet's. :happy:


uhm...yeah. That's...that's why I quoted Owlet. Did it tag you somehow?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Immolate said:


> It's more typically said of 9, and Night's Queen has called her strongly passive aggressive in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> What _can_ you picture? That's a genuine question, not a shot at you.


So you suggest the strong reaction to passive aggression exists alongside passive aggression? Wouldn't that be an example of beating oneself up over one's own negative traits by taking it out on others? Hm. I wonder. @owlet, do you think you have passive aggressive predilections? 

Why is this trait Nine? I can see One and Eight, both. One tries to hammer out what is and is not ok, yeah? Eight calls people out on what they don't like. So why does Nine do this?

I don't think you'd take a shot at me that way. Not really your style. 

If I think of SP and SO, I think of someone who focuses on the self and on their place in things. Drawing people out isn't all that important. When I think of 4, I think of identity issues and self-focus. So a self-focused person that focuses on the self first and on their place in a group second.

...which says very little. -_-

That said, I would imagine such people are more concerned than usual about your image, on a physical level. And on a social one. It would be about representation. The SO instinct part would point at that for an image type I'd think. As a 4, I imagine they'd want their own unique style, as well. So If I had to take a crack at guessing what an SP/SO 4 would look like, it'd be an image-conscious person that tries to define and express their individuality by joining groups that fit them (SP instinct leads to avoiding uphill struggles of non-fitting groups) and then tries to live as whatever that thing they think they are is. A goth tries to be more goth than the rest, and to internalize what it means to be goth over and above. Same could be said of any group we use for an example.


----------



## Irohana

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> uhm...yeah. That's...that's why I quoted Owlet. Did it tag you somehow?


Oh no, you didn't... just thought I'd show the post myself. No big deal. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> *So you suggest the strong reaction to passive aggression exists alongside passive aggression? *Wouldn't that be an example of beating oneself up over one's own negative traits by taking it out on others? Hm. I wonder. @*owlet*, do you think you have passive aggressive predilections?


I've always found owlet rather straightforward, perhaps so straightforward that people question her intentions. I brought it up largely because I found it amusing P) and because I'm interested in your point about 4s.



> Why is this trait Nine? I can see One and Eight, both. One tries to hammer out what is and is not ok, yeah? Eight calls people out on what they don't like. So why does Nine do this?


It's more typically said that 9s are passive aggressive because acknowledging or expressing anger disrupts the internal sense of harmony. I don't think passive aggression is limited to any one type, of course.



> If I think of SP and SO, I think of someone who focuses on the self and on their place in things. Drawing people out isn't all that important. When I think of 4, I think of identity issues and self-focus. So a self-focused person that focuses on the self first and on their place in a group second.
> 
> ...which says very little. -_-
> 
> That said, I would imagine such people are more concerned than usual about your image, on a physical level. And on a social one. It would be about representation. The SO instinct part would point at that for an image type I'd think. As a 4, I imagine they'd want their own unique style, as well. So If I had to take a crack at guessing what an SP/SO 4 would look like, it'd be an image-conscious person that tries to define and express their individuality by joining groups that fit them (SP instinct leads to avoiding uphill struggles of non-fitting groups) and then tries to live as whatever that thing they think they are is. A goth tries to be more goth than the rest, and to internalize what it means to be goth over and above. Same could be said of any group we use for an example.


These are good points, but I was hoping for type suggestions. For example, you mentioned type 1.


----------



## Paradigm

owlet said:


> No, no, this is another misunderstanding - I was saying that due to the fact I found myself very overwhelmed by external environments and often found people intrusive because of things like this, I mistyped as 5 for a while (as well as also having anxiety so feeling the need to prepare 'for the worst').


So you were saying that you thought only 5s had to be that way, rather than thinking any other type could be that way too?


----------



## Kintsugi

brightflashes said:


> @*Kintsugi*
> 
> Have you filled out a type me questionnaire on the "type me" forum? If so, could you link to it? If not, that would be a good place to start.


I haven't, I'm afraid, I don't like those questionnaires!

I'm a practising therapist and I would like to get get to the nitty gritty of things (when I say that in my British accent it sounds very amusing lol!) 

I'm afraid that questionnaires tend to bore me but, if it's a good one, I will oblige.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Immolate said:


> I've always found owlet rather straightforward, perhaps so straightforward that people question her intentions. I brought it up largely because I found it amusing P) and because I'm interested in your point about 4s.
> 
> 
> 
> It's more typically said that 9s are passive aggressive because acknowledging or expressing anger disrupts the internal sense of harmony. I don't think passive aggression is limited to any one type, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> These are good points, but I was hoping for type suggestions. For example, you mentioned type 1.


Aaaaah, fair enough.

I've not experienced Owlie as passive aggressive either.

What you say about 9 makes some sense. If the inner harmony is so important to Nine, then would it be fair to say that overcoming these tendencies to resist admitting anger is part of the journey to health for a Nine?

Type suggestions for whom? Night's Queen? Owlet? I'll assume Owlet for the recentness. Erm...I see Owlet as outward focused in a way that does not jive with how I perceive Four. Especially SP. But...I dont't know that I can recall anything from Owlie's questionnaire(s) any more. I suspect that Owlet is a Gut type or an Image type, despite the obvious focus on intellect. Owlet seems most likely to be Gut to me at the moment, but I don't really see 9 as the core.

Knowing you, you shall ask for reasons. My reasons are "BECAUSE REASONS!"

Nah, but seriously. I would tentatively echo some of what those suggesting Nine have said. I also think Withdrawn is somewhat likely which would point to Nine. So its between Nine and Four, really, based on whether Owlie's focus is on Image or on Gut. I believe that Head is unlikely for Owlet because Head Types are driven by anxiety, and I really don't think that Owlet is. 

I'm not really super invested in or certain of those ideas at the moment. I just knew you'd ask


----------



## brightflashes

Kintsugi said:


> I'm a practising therapist and I would like to get get to the nitty gritty of things


What theoretical model/models do you prefer to use with your clients? Is there a certain approach to psychology (assuming you're a counselor) that appeals to you the most? I'm not trying to distract from the original question. It's just that I know a lot of counselors and I think your answers might help me make up my mind. : )


----------



## Immolate

@Lord Fenix Wulfheart So, she doesn't strike you as a 4, instead she strikes you as a Gut type, but not 9 core, but it ends with 4 vs 9 because Withdrawn?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Immolate said:


> @Lord Fenix Wulfheart So, she doesn't strike you as a 4, instead she strikes you as a Gut type, but not 9 core, but it ends with 4 vs 9 because Withdrawn?


There is a reason I give vague answers instead of providing reasons


----------



## Tad Cooper

Paradigm said:


> 8w9 is pretty self-contained. My dad's a 8w9 SO/SP (ESTP) and, sure, he's friendly and outgoing, but he also spends literally ~9 hours largely silent each day, and doesn't React to the things he "should" (to a 1 fixer) and Reacts to the things he "shouldn't." He does tend to seek out attention if he doesn't get enough stimulation for a while, but I figured that was more his Se-Fe than his 8w9 or SOC stuff.
> 
> I could go on but tbh I'm not sure what to say. This post has no bearing on what I think your type is, @*Tad Cooper*. I failed to keep up on that topic >_<


Thanks very much! Yeah I always thought 8s were pretty independent etc, same with 7s in a lot of ways too? 
Haha no worries  thanks for the input though, I appreciate it!


----------



## Immolate

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> There is a reason I give vague answers instead of providing reasons


(Yes, it was quite the non-answer.)


----------



## tinyheart

I'm a 9.

So come to me when you need comfort and flattery, because I definitely hate conflict.

:wink:


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Immolate said:


> (Yes, it was quite the non-answer.)


Hah.

Basically, my answer is yes, I am conflicted. That is of course why I was probing Owlet and the thread for more comments. I don't feel nearly as qualified at Enneagram as I do at other typologies. Too much lack of knowledge.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Lady Pirate said:


> I'm a 9.
> 
> So come to me when you need comfort and flattery, because I definitely hate conflict.
> 
> :wink:


Haha, will do.

BTW your profile lists you as a Four. Tryna mislead us? Hehe 

Nah, I'm sure that's not it, I'm just messin' with ya



Dracobane said:


> Oh no, you didn't... just thought I'd show the post myself. No big deal. :laughing:


oh. Oh. Ooooooh. I get it now. You were quoting the post Owlet was trying to direct me to.

*goes back to read that again**

@owlet, if this is the post you were referring to I don't see how it...erm...needs a response? Like, I say I half agree because its a spectrum...and then you basically say that its a spectrum...so, huzzah? I took this post to be to Paradigm specifically, because it makes little sense if it is to me too....*confused*
"Oh no, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding, actually! I definitely agree that type 4 can and are self-deceptive or dishonest/exaggerating (and often are in the average/lower levels of health due to introjection of favourable characteristics in order to become closer to their 'ideal' self). It's just that 4s at the higher levels of health will be self-aware in an honest way, accepting even things they previously found shameful about themselves. "

I will say you make a point about how this correlates to Levels of Health I didn't really go into. Thanks for contributing 

I don't know much about the levels for any given type. Just a hazy memory of reading them once. *shrug*


----------



## owlet

@Lord Fenix Wulfheart Sorry, I haven't been feeling too well today, but just as some food for thought, I had a look at the OceanMoonshine blog page on type 4 instinctual stacks and I'm between so/sp and sp/so, potentially leaning more so/sp, which is described as:


> *Social/Self-pres*This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four’s shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with “fitting in” is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.
> The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four’s sense of being “different from” or “other than.” The Four’s need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct’s drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.
> When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.


Source.

I'll try to reply to your questions tomorrow when I'll hopefully be feeling better.


----------



## tinyheart

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Haha, will do.
> 
> BTW your profile lists you as a Four. Tryna mislead us? Hehe
> 
> Nah, I'm sure that's not it, I'm just messin' with ya


i'm trollin'.


----------



## Irohana

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> oh. Oh. Ooooooh. I get it now. You were quoting the post Owlet was trying to direct me to.
> 
> *goes back to read that again**


Pretty much, yeah. And it's a good way to get into the conversation as well! To contribute to the thread, though, I don't personally think @owlet is passive aggressive... she seems like the sort of person who's too straightlaced, but can have some fun if pushed. I always pegged her as a 5. :laughing:


----------



## Irohana

Double post, condolences. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

I just want to point out that my argument for 9 did not hinge or even reference wwlet being passive aggressive or not :laughing: I was the one being called passive-aggressive :laughing:

(If anyone thinks I'm passive-aggressive in a 9 or other way feel free to go with that to make a type claim though)


----------



## Irohana

The Night's Queen said:


> I just want to point out that my argument for 9 did not hinge or even reference wwlet being passive aggressive or not :laughing: I was the one being called passive-aggressive :laughing:
> 
> (If anyone thinks I'm passive-aggressive in a 9 or other way feel free to go with that to make a type claim though)


Oh, apologies! I may have misread it, should go back and reread. If my opinion means anything, though, you do seem passive aggressive... but you always seemed like a mix between 2 and 6, maybe different types in a tritype? 9 doesn't really make sense, but hey. :kitteh:


----------



## Dangerose

Dracobane said:


> Oh, apologies! I may have misread it, should go back and reread. If my opinion means anything, though, you do seem passive aggressive... but you always seemed like a mix between 2 and 6, maybe different types in a tritype? 9 doesn't really make sense, but hey. :kitteh:


I hate to do this but passive aggressive how? Really curious, think it's something that can be hard to pick up on in yourself.
Anyways, thank you)


----------



## Irohana

The Night's Queen said:


> I hate to do this but passive aggressive how? Really curious, think it's something that can be hard to pick up on in yourself.
> Anyways, thank you)


Oh yeah, definitely is, although I think it's hard to be correct about yourself in many cases, self-bias is quite a nasty thing. As for passive aggressiveness, you seem to have that sort of tone... again, no specific examples, cause memory, but it's politeness with an edge to it, very 2w3. What are you typing as now, if I can ask? :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Dracobane said:


> Oh yeah, definitely is, although I think it's hard to be correct about yourself in many cases, self-bias is quite a nasty thing. As for passive aggressiveness, you seem to have that sort of tone... again, no specific examples, cause memory, but it's politeness with an edge to it, very 2w3. What are you typing as now, if I can ask? :happy:


May I ever-so-politely direct you to my signature and profile? 


* *





:wink:


----------



## Irohana

The Night's Queen said:


> May I ever-so-politely direct you to my signature and profile?
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :wink:


_And, note to self, check before you ask. Helps._ :laughing:


----------



## owlet

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Is such directness a trait of 4? How about 9? I know it is an 8 thing, but not sure what others.
> 
> Aren't 4s known for being passive aggressive? I know its just a stereotype. I'm just trying to see how your attitude you have here and 4 work together in a clear way. I'm having trouble at the moment, but will get back to you if something clicks.


I'm not sure, I just know that I don't like it because it's disingenuous and disrespectful, in my view. If people have a problem with something, they should have enough conviction to say so directly. (Maybe in part it's to do with my upbringing, being raised by two Northerners? There's a culture of being more direct in Liverpool.) I don't think 4s are stereotyped as passive-aggressive though.



> So is this a responsibility thing? Like, we are socially responsible for stating things as mean them? If so, what do we do when we do not know what we mean per se? What if someone is in your face demanding answers? Do these things change it?
> 
> Why is your word so important? Is honesty a part of who you are, if you will? If so, what makes this Four rather than One?


If you don't know what you mean, it's easy enough to say you're not sure. If people are demanding answers, it depends on the situation - like if you're in a place where telling the truth could get you or someone else killed, obviously don't, but if it's i.e. at work and your boss is demanding why something isn't done, just be honest and apologise for it, then offer to resolve the issue, or something. Not too sure where you're going with this.

I greatly value people being honest and upfront about things and I also value trust - if someone doubts what I'm saying constantly, how can we have a conversation? There needs to be a level of trust in the other person's willingness to be upfront with things. I don't think it's particularly type-related.



> An excellent answer, thank you. So if we type others while not necessarily understanding all the types, we are bound to make mistakes. Would you agree? If so, then the different voices saying different types for you are doing just that. How does one determine which type is the accurate one when there is no agreement?


Everyone can make mistakes. In this particular situation, I value my own understanding of myself over people I've hardly discussed anything important with. I don't believe types are being suggested out of spite, but I do disagree with them and people telling me I'm wrong no matter what I say is frustrating to deal with. If people generally offer a good argument for something (which doesn't rely on behaviours), asks questions and is up for an open discussion, then we can have that discussion and work through ideas to find a solid conclusion.



> I do believe you have quoted it word for freakin' word. I would have been so close, too. I didn't attempt to post the quote because I knew I'd mess it up, and maybe spoil the meaning.
> 
> Ender Wiggin is my spirit animal. Not necessarily a representation of who I am, but definitely a representation of something I see in myself.
> 
> TBH, I can't picture SP/SO 4. So I'll refrain from further comment and hope others can show why you would or would not be that.


Ahh, I found the quote on google xD My memory isn't quite that good, unfortunately! Ender is a great character, showing a lot of understanding about his world (in reflection of our world), the people in it, and himself.

With the instinctual stacks, I linked a page in my latest post to you - this one - which goes through the type stacks.

Type 4 sp/so:


> This subtype is the least volatile and fiery of the type Four stackings. They can resemble type One in terms of their efficiency and practicality. Although their focus will be more on the emotional aesthetic, these Fours do have a considerable practical side. Less flashy than some of the subtypes of Four, they nevertheless have a quiet charm and developed sense of style. They are likely to value their possessions, to perhaps collect items of personal emotional significance. They may, for instance, have shelves and shelves of books and have a place for each book. This subtype can also resemble type Six in terms of having a great deal of anxiety. This anxiety often revolves around self-pres concerns such as those surrounding health issues and mortality. Their strong self-pres instinct also lends a degree of independence to this subtype. As the sexual instinct is least pronounced, this subtype of Four is prone to romanticize intimacy without actually pursuing real relationships. When healthy, these Fours can be very productive; when less healthy they might suffer from boughts of melancholy or self pity. The strong self-pres instinct however often helps these individuals to recognize how their state of mind is impacting their health and well being. This enables them to become action oriented.


And so/sp:


> This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four’s shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with “fitting in” is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four’s sense of being “different from” or “other than.” The Four’s need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct’s drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.
> When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.


I'm between the two, honestly.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Aaaaah, fair enough.
> 
> I've not experienced Owlie as passive aggressive either.
> 
> What you say about 9 makes some sense. If the inner harmony is so important to Nine, then would it be fair to say that overcoming these tendencies to resist admitting anger is part of the journey to health for a Nine?
> 
> Type suggestions for whom? Night's Queen? Owlet? I'll assume Owlet for the recentness. Erm...I see Owlet as outward focused in a way that does not jive with how I perceive Four. Especially SP. But...I dont't know that I can recall anything from Owlie's questionnaire(s) any more. I suspect that Owlet is a Gut type or an Image type, despite the obvious focus on intellect. Owlet seems most likely to be Gut to me at the moment, but I don't really see 9 as the core.
> 
> Knowing you, you shall ask for reasons. My reasons are "BECAUSE REASONS!"
> 
> Nah, but seriously. I would tentatively echo some of what those suggesting Nine have said. I also think Withdrawn is somewhat likely which would point to Nine. So its between Nine and Four, really, based on whether Owlie's focus is on Image or on Gut. I believe that Head is unlikely for Owlet because Head Types are driven by anxiety, and I really don't think that Owlet is.
> 
> I'm not really super invested in or certain of those ideas at the moment. I just knew you'd ask


I feel confused reading this because you say 1 more than 9, but definitely withdrawn so 4 or 9? I'm interested if you could elaborate on what you mean.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

owlet said:


> @Lord Fenix Wulfheart Sorry, I haven't been feeling too well today, but just as some food for thought, I had a look at the OceanMoonshine blog page on type 4 instinctual stacks and I'm between so/sp and sp/so, potentially leaning more so/sp, which is described as:
> 
> Source.
> 
> I'll try to reply to your questions tomorrow when I'll hopefully be feeling better.


That description does jive somewhat with my impression of you.

I will await your other answers.

EDIT: Noticed you added more already, will reply soon.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@*owlet* 

I honestly don't think that someone's personality "just isn't coming through," let alone image types. What image concerns do you share? 9 is clearly there in your personality, and maybe it's not your core, but it doesn't even make it to your tritype. Why? I think a certain level of distrust in someone else's typing is fine and even healthy - but good arguments don't hinge on "ignoring behaviors," in fact they hinge on _good intuition_. What do you think?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

owlet said:


> I'm not sure, I just know that I don't like it because it's disingenuous and disrespectful, in my view. If people have a problem with something, they should have enough conviction to say so directly. (Maybe in part it's to do with my upbringing, being raised by two Northerners? There's a culture of being more direct in Liverpool.) I don't think 4s are stereotyped as passive-aggressive though.


Conviction is an interesting word. It's like you want to banish all illusions and reveal the truth in so doing.



owlet said:


> If you don't know what you mean, it's easy enough to say you're not sure. If people are demanding answers, it depends on the situation - like if you're in a place where telling the truth could get you or someone else killed, obviously don't, but if it's i.e. at work and your boss is demanding why something isn't done, just be honest and apologise for it, then offer to resolve the issue, or something. Not too sure where you're going with this.


You make it sound so simple. Like the right thing is very clear and unambiguous. I almost envy that. I've always thought the right thing is very clear and very complex, and that ultimately the right thing varies from person to person and from situation to situation. A simpler option would be nice, though perhaps not forever.

Where I'm going with this is getting you to express yourself quite clearly and not in Enneagram terminology. Then this opens the floor for the discussion of all the whys and the wherefores, and shows us more clearly who YOU are. Not what type you are; what Types you are is just a PART of YOU. 

Its also to see HOW you answer. The way you express yourself says something about you. It gives fuel to the fire of this conversation, and leaves records which could be useful at some point. Have you ever just read some of your old posts to see how you used to be? It can be quite enlightening.



owlet said:


> I greatly value people being honest and upfront about things and I also value trust - if someone doubts what I'm saying constantly, how can we have a conversation? There needs to be a level of trust in the other person's willingness to be upfront with things. I don't think it's particularly type-related.


You don't? I would think trust is VERY type related, being as trust is a value, and values are an expression of motivations at their heart. The question becomes, of course, HOW is it type related? I would think that each type has its own relationship(s) with trust that are quite complicated.



owlet said:


> Everyone can make mistakes. In this particular situation, I value my own understanding of myself over people I've hardly discussed anything important with. I don't believe types are being suggested out of spite, but I do disagree with them and people telling me I'm wrong no matter what I say is frustrating to deal with. If people generally offer a good argument for something (which doesn't rely on behaviours), asks questions and is up for an open discussion, then we can have that discussion and work through ideas to find a solid conclusion.


So would it be fair to say that reputation is part of what you are looking at when evaluating another's arguments?



owlet said:


> Ahh, I found the quote on google xD My memory isn't quite that good, unfortunately! Ender is a great character, showing a lot of understanding about his world (in reflection of our world), the people in it, and himself.


Hah, cheater. 

I could have done that, but then I still wouldn't have remembered it word for word. I wanted to be impressive that way, and couldn't, so I gave it up and didn't do it.

Heh. Don't say only positive things about Ender right after I claim he is my spirit animal...makes it look even more like I'm trying to claim I'm basically just like him.

Which, to be completely truthful with you, I used to think exactly that. Still do to some degree - Ender Wiggin had a lot of influence in my life as one of the first male characters in a story to view conflict the way that I do, INCLUDING being compassionate about it despite bowing to the necessity of it (at least before he did the thing at the end of the book) and engaging in it as brutally and viciously as necessary to get it done. Now AND forever. I ESPECIALLY thought of myself as just like him when I was ultra convinced that I am a logic-based person, before I found typology. Although, now that I know more about typology, I'd actually peg him as an ethician anyway, so that's a moot point now I suppose.



owlet said:


> I feel confused reading this because you say 1 more than 9, but definitely withdrawn so 4 or 9? I'm interested if you could elaborate on what you mean.


I do not say definitely withdrawn. I said Withdrawn is somewhat likely. 

That said, I am clearly contradicting myself in some ways. Internally, I do that constantly. The reason is simple. None of the answers that I currently have seems *right*. I just don't know enough about Enneagram. So what you read there is pretty much the word vomit form of my reasoning circling around trying to highlight the Answer. I'll continue to look at it from various angles and pick out nuggets of information, and develop a conclusion. Eventually.

As for what I mean, what I mean is exactly what I said. All of the things I said seem to me to be simultaneously true. There is nothing more to that at this time. The contradiction is just sitting there like a coal in my mind. I am aware that it is a contradiction and makes no sense, but I'm not seeing anything that makes one of them false. There's...gotta be something ELSE, somewhere. That's why I say I do not have enough information - because obviously, my current data set does not include the answer. Actually, the instinctual stacks you shared did make 4 seem more likely. Of course, now, as a corrolary, I'd have to compare and contrast the stackings of the other types being posited for you before I could actually be confident in an answer, because that'd be acting on a limited data set and KNOWing it. For example, declaring that mining is a dead profession - like, the entire existence of that as a job someone can have is gone forever - because the 3 mines you pay any attention to that are within driving distance of your home are now dead...that is foolishness.


----------



## LittleDreamer

Um Idk how this works but if anyone thinks I've mistyped, it would be nice if you could _gently_ let me know
I'm pretty sure of my tritype (4w3 6w5 9w1), I'm just not too certain when it comes to the order.


----------



## brightflashes

LittleDreamer said:


> Um Idk how this works but if anyone thinks I've mistyped, it would be nice if you could _gently_ let me know
> I'm pretty sure of my tritype (4w3 6w5 9w1), I'm just not too certain when it comes to the order.


You are so sweet and self aware. You have shown me multiple times that you are serious about getting to the root of who you are. While that describes a lot of people here, the way you do it isn't so much about self doubt as it is about seeking for truth or seeking for some sort of "click" (based on my impressions from you). I could see 9w1 being a main type because of how composed and insightful you seem to me (both strengths I associate with type 9). I could also see a core 4 (unsure of wing) being a type for you because of how reflective you are and your intrapersonal skills. I think I'd personally put 9 above 4 (both withdrawn/introverted types), but I think that you might be a better judge of which core type you associate with the best. 

I have found Helen Palmer does a really good job describing typical childhood for each type. While not all members of each type will identify with the childhood descriptions, this is what helped me the most. It seems that my patterns of behavior which I have now were exaggerated in childhood, so when I read about childhood responses to certain caretaker behaviors, it's easier to see who I am because the response of withdrawing is so obvious for me. 

I wish you luck finding your type and please take other people's opinion with a grain of salt. There are some very insightful people on this forum, but the ultimate person who can type you is yourself. Some people will try to infer motivations for why you act a certain way. Enneagram is a lot about why people act the way they do and how they think, so when one attempts to type someone else, they are inferring these sorts of things. Some people may be terribly wrong, but draw a reasonable conclusion based on an inference which makes perfect sense to them. So, keep that in mind as others respond. 

If you're familiar with Turlowe and how he is in general, he's a good example of an INFP type 9. While I understand that your MBTI is up in the air somewhat at this time, that might give you some insight as well. : )


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet*
> 
> I honestly don't think that someone's personality "just isn't coming through," let alone image types. What image concerns do you share? 9 is clearly there in your personality, and maybe it's not your core, but it doesn't even make it to your tritype. Why? I think a certain level of distrust in someone else's typing is fine and even healthy - but good arguments don't hinge on "ignoring behaviors," in fact they hinge on _good intuition_. What do you think?


My 'poor intuition' has been brought up twice now - it's leaning towards typism at this point so I'll ask people generally to not do that. I don't take people going off behaviours seriously when those people don't know me, because I haven't chosen to share personal stuff with them and even moreso when they're absolutely convinced they're right. If someone wants to genuinely talk with me about this kind of stuff, then I'll discuss it, but I won't have people acting like they know me better than I know myself.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

I think that's not useful to use the subtype descriptions, as it's too easy to cherrypick them without understanding a type as a whole. Type will show despite of instincts, so if only one of the descriptions make sense and the rest not, then it's not your real core. Better to see core type and insticts as separate, because mixing both makes harder to see which patterns are caused by each component.


----------



## brightflashes

Dragheart Luard said:


> I think that's not useful to use the subtype descriptions, as it's too easy to cherrypick them without understanding a type as a whole. Type will show despite of instincts, so if only one of the descriptions make sense and the rest not, then it's not your real core. Better to see core type and insticts as separate, because mixing both makes harder to see which patterns are caused by each component.


To illustrate your point, could you provide an example of a possible mistype based on the inability to separate the two vs an accurate typing based on separating the two?


----------



## Dragheart Luard

brightflashes said:


> To illustrate your point, could you provide an example of a possible mistype based on the inability to separate the two vs an accurate typing based on separating the two?


One is that some authors mention a certain instinctual subtype being the countertype (ex. so 7 being antigluttony, sx 1 not repressing anger as much as the other type 1 subtypes), therefore they can be quite misleading if someone is too set at one specific type. I mistyped at sx 1 for this reason, as I didn't see myself repressing my own anger to the level of sp and so 1, but in retrospect the core mechanisms didn't really explain my issues. I haven't studied the other examples in depth, but that's the issue I've noticed when one mixes up both concepts.


----------



## LittleDreamer

@brightflashes

Thank you so much! That was very helpful and insightful. I'll try to figure out my motivations and check out the childhood descriptions as well. I guess there's also that I sometimes feel like the type 9 characteristics in me are expressed more because it seems more "acceptable."
And I'll maybe stalk Turlowe's posts for insight:tongue: but I guess I'll also have to take into consideration the age difference. He's probably a lot more mature and consistent(?) so I'll have to look for gen z 9s as well. 
You're right that a large part of it is an independent task. I'll hopefully find out soon enough. Thank you!


----------



## Darkbloom

owlet said:


> My 'poor intuition' has been brought up twice now - it's leaning towards typism at this point so I'll ask people generally to not do that. I don't take people going off behaviours seriously when those people don't know me, because I haven't chosen to share personal stuff with them and even moreso when they're absolutely convinced they're right. If someone wants to genuinely talk with me about this kind of stuff, then I'll discuss it, but I won't have people acting like they know me better than I know myself.


I don't know what exactly Rose meant but you can have poor intuition in a way that's not type related


----------



## owlet

Dragheart Luard said:


> I think that's not useful to use the subtype descriptions, as it's too easy to cherrypick them without understanding a type as a whole. Type will show despite of instincts, so if only one of the descriptions make sense and the rest not, then it's not your real core. Better to see core type and insticts as separate, because mixing both makes harder to see which patterns are caused by each component.


Not sure if this was aimed at my post or not, but I find it helpful to look at all of the information including instinctual variants as a whole in order to build up a clear image of the way a type functions at its core.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Conviction is an interesting word. It's like you want to banish all illusions and reveal the truth in so doing.


How do you mean? From my perspective, it shows you're prepared to engage someone when you're direct, whereas otherwise you can slip out of it easily.



> You make it sound so simple. Like the right thing is very clear and unambiguous. I almost envy that. I've always thought the right thing is very clear and very complex, and that ultimately the right thing varies from person to person and from situation to situation. A simpler option would be nice, though perhaps not forever.
> 
> Where I'm going with this is getting you to express yourself quite clearly and not in Enneagram terminology. Then this opens the floor for the discussion of all the whys and the wherefores, and shows us more clearly who YOU are. Not what type you are; what Types you are is just a PART of YOU.
> 
> Its also to see HOW you answer. The way you express yourself says something about you. It gives fuel to the fire of this conversation, and leaves records which could be useful at some point. Have you ever just read some of your old posts to see how you used to be? It can be quite enlightening.


Right and wrong are by not means straightforward and often the right or wrong thing will depend on the individual and the situation. For example, something I may consider right from my perspective maybe be wrong from someone else's. A lot of the time with this kind of thing, it's only possible to play it by ear. For me, the baseline is having a certain level of respect for others until I know them better and can see if they deserve more or less respect from me.

But in that case, there will always be issues with people here not being able to see 'me', but rather their impression of a facet of me. It's difficult because I'm not willing to share personal information with people I know don't care and so I don't feel comfortable going deeply down that kind of road in an area of public discussion (I can talk via PM if you want to ask anything more personal).

It's difficult looking at things I've written in the past, as I communicated through the barrier of things like social anxiety, which makes it hard to see type beyond the illness.



> You don't? I would think trust is VERY type related, being as trust is a value, and values are an expression of motivations at their heart. The question becomes, of course, HOW is it type related? I would think that each type has its own relationship(s) with trust that are quite complicated.


That's actually the reason I didn't feel it was type related - because all types have a relationship with trust, so it doesn't narrow it down. Looking at the type of trust, sure, but not trust itself.



> So would it be fair to say that reputation is part of what you are looking at when evaluating another's arguments?


What do you mean by reputation here?



> Hah, cheater.
> 
> I could have done that, but then I still wouldn't have remembered it word for word. I wanted to be impressive that way, and couldn't, so I gave it up and didn't do it.
> 
> Heh. Don't say only positive things about Ender right after I claim he is my spirit animal...makes it look even more like I'm trying to claim I'm basically just like him.
> 
> Which, to be completely truthful with you, I used to think exactly that. Still do to some degree - Ender Wiggin had a lot of influence in my life as one of the first male characters in a story to view conflict the way that I do, INCLUDING being compassionate about it despite bowing to the necessity of it (at least before he did the thing at the end of the book) and engaging in it as brutally and viciously as necessary to get it done. Now AND forever. I ESPECIALLY thought of myself as just like him when I was ultra convinced that I am a logic-based person, before I found typology. Although, now that I know more about typology, I'd actually peg him as an ethician anyway, so that's a moot point now I suppose.


My mum can remember the entire ending paragraph of The Great Gatsby off the top of her head - I don't think I inherited the memory genes :tongue:

Oh no, I really like Ender as a character - he was very 'real', in being so aware and balanced. Ender's Game has been one of my favourite books since I read it years ago. I agree he's an ethician!



> I do not say definitely withdrawn. I said Withdrawn is somewhat likely.
> 
> That said, I am clearly contradicting myself in some ways. Internally, I do that constantly. The reason is simple. None of the answers that I currently have seems *right*. I just don't know enough about Enneagram. So what you read there is pretty much the word vomit form of my reasoning circling around trying to highlight the Answer. I'll continue to look at it from various angles and pick out nuggets of information, and develop a conclusion. Eventually.
> 
> As for what I mean, what I mean is exactly what I said. All of the things I said seem to me to be simultaneously true. There is nothing more to that at this time. The contradiction is just sitting there like a coal in my mind. I am aware that it is a contradiction and makes no sense, but I'm not seeing anything that makes one of them false. There's...gotta be something ELSE, somewhere. That's why I say I do not have enough information - because obviously, my current data set does not include the answer. Actually, the instinctual stacks you shared did make 4 seem more likely. Of course, now, as a corrolary, I'd have to compare and contrast the stackings of the other types being posited for you before I could actually be confident in an answer, because that'd be acting on a limited data set and KNOWing it. For example, declaring that mining is a dead profession - like, the entire existence of that as a job someone can have is gone forever - because the 3 mines you pay any attention to that are within driving distance of your home are now dead...that is foolishness.


Whoops, sorry! Ah, to be honest, I do understand internal contradictions over information - I often have the same thing and will work through it for sometimes a very long period before I feel comfortable with it. Which enneagram sources have you been looking at? I know there are a few available on PerC, but also if you search on google books you can find some of the book-length pieces for free.

I thought it might be helpful to highlight certain aspects of exactly why I'm no longer considering 9 (although I did in the past). Things such as this excerpt from Maitri:


> "The “deafness” of Nines is at heart a loss of attunement to the realm of Essence, as we have seen. So just as they believe that they can be to varying degrees negligible and forgettable, they have, with losing contact with Essence, forgotten themselves. This self-forgetting, which is the hallmark of this ennea-type, manifests from the depths to the outermost surface of the personality: from the forgetting of Essence to simple forgetfulness in daily functioning. Self-forgetting basically describes a Nine’s relationship to herself. For this reason, on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, which you will find in Appendix B, self-forgetting appears at Point Nine. This enneagram refers to each ennea-type’s characteristic relationship to what we experience as self—our soul—as discussed in the Introduction. With their depths forgotten, an underlying attitude of “What’s the point of paying attention to myself? There’s nothing of value in here anyway,” permeates the behavior, thoughts, and feelings of Nines. They end up feeling that they are nothing special and that there is nothing remarkable about them. The inner is neglected and forgotten, and the outer seems to be all that is worth paying attention to. Outer expression and experience appear far more consequential than what is going on internally, which in comparison seems insignificant and unimportant. They become more outer rather than inner directed, synchronizing with and responding to what is needed by the environment and by others, rather than responding to inner promptings. The needs of others drown out their own, which by comparison feel less important and of a much lower priority. Their self-importance in time becomes based on responding to and serving others rather than themselves."


I do not self-forget or distance myself from 'me', in fact I'm highly aware of myself and my internal processes and am often more interested in those than external things. I also don't put any of my self-importance on responding to and serving others, or see my needs as lesser than others.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

I am tired. I will likely answer more tomorrow. For now, I am off.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

owlet said:


> Not sure if this was aimed at my post or not, but I find it helpful to look at all of the information including instinctual variants as a whole in order to build up a clear image of the way a type functions at its core.


Your post reminded me of that issue, and yeah we clearly don't agree on this point as I think it's better to analyze instincts without mixing them up with core. More as the descriptions may be too focused on behavior and less on what drives a type overall from what I've seen while reading them.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

mistakenforstranger said:


> Ok, but I would say not in the manner of image types, as it being core to their type issues. Shame is one of, if not the, specific emotion they (image types, which includes 4) have to wrestle with in the same way, for example, rage/aggression is for body/gut types.


The fact that it's CORE to 4 emerges in how much they identify with what's wrong with them. Yes, I think this is a perfectly average description of 4. You are not understanding that the quotes and sources you use to justify the _kind _of 4, can be misused to justify mistypes. It can easily be taken out of context. 

Did you see a recent post I tagged you in? You repeatedly drive in 4 is all about shame, no one suffers from shame the way 4 does, but_ your repeated claim that it's unique to 4_, is more 4, than shame itself saying that much about someone's personality type. 



> I mean, it says exactly that in the source you just quoted, but which you have overlooked:


Everyone feels all emotions, but there's a nuanced difference between someone who is an actual 4, and someone with a surface level understanding of the type whether or not they are a 4. I admit I have been the latter which is why I wasn't able to express myself clearly, even though I intuitively sensed all of the 4 stuff was true for me. 



> From that same source on Body/Gut types, yet it says nothing about shame...


So they don't feel shame? Forget about types. Think about a gut type real person, you don't think they feel shame? 



> From that same source on 4s:


I don't know, I see you doing something I have done before. Trying to drive in something and getting louder about it even though I am wrong. Having shame and withdrawing does not make you a certain type. That's not enough to type anyone at anything.



> Yes, they same it's human to experience all these emotions, but that each center has their own specific emotion, which for 4s, as image types, is Shame.


Capitalized, too? Has it been trademarked by 4s now? Shame™ :tongue:



> Oh please, I didn't say anything about you, or your health level, and you're twisting my words that I have rubbed it in your face. :dry:


Fine.



> I'm saying your argument for what you think a Type 4 is is contradicted by Riso-Hudson's descriptions. That is, you say a 4 will express their pain and shortcomings, while Riso-Hudson say 4s will become more aloof, withdrawn, and self-conscious.


So you relate to the less self expressive 4. Still doesn't make them _not _an image type, does it?



> you have claimed you don't see me as a healthy version of the type before, haven't you? I don't claim to be healthy, but I do like to acknowledge that there are different manifestations of the same type based on one's specific health level, which can be seen as a spectrum of behaviors.


I don't know your type or health level. 



> Well, that's usually what a 4 finds, that they aren't as unique as they believed themselves to be in their suffering, but it's quite difficult to reach that place. A place where they can say, "Yes, I, too, am human, like everyone else."


Yes.



> And you aren't being selective either? It's called adding support to my argument with sources, which frankly, not many people on here do, and why almost anything goes at times because the reasoning is usually based on unjustifiable "vibes".


It's called justifying your own arguments with sources. Doesn't mean it can't be, as I said earlier, _misused to justify mistypes_.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@mistakenforstranger I am sorry if you have felt invalidated, I know what that feels like. But truth is invaluable, and "shame" does not count as good enough reason for anyone to be a 4. Unless they explicitly explain their internal mechanisms, tying in the need for unique identity etc. I cannot say for certain anyone is a 4, specially if other type(s) is much more fitting. That, or if they act like a 4. 

Anyways, there's no point in continuing the argument over "if shame justifies typing at 4," because it doesn't. It's also tiring to me. So, let's end it here.


----------



## Tad Cooper

@*mistakenforstranger* I'm really interested in those bits you posted on shame, do you happen to have an example for type 7? (I'd like to compare it to type 8).

I'm kind of stuck between those two, but could be something else....


----------



## brightflashes

@mistakenforstranger (or anyone who can tell me) could you tell me how you make quotes without referring to anyone? Is it just (with brackets) quote the thing to be quoted /quote? Edit: nevermind. I got it. : )

- - - - - - - - - - 

I'm interested in which resource members here recommend as the best book to read for typing other people. While I have probably read it before, I would like to revisit Enneagram with my new interest in being able to accurately type others. I'm thinking Naranjo's _Character and Neurosis_ might be the best one, but I wondered what others here would say?

test



> The thing to be quoted.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Rose for a Heart said:


> SP 4 is people's favorite subtype to bring up when 4 doesn't fit.
> 
> They still express it.


Well, it is considered the counter-type of Type 4:



> *Self-Preservation Fours do not communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame, or envy, though they may feel all these things and they have the same depth and capacity for feeling as the other Fours.* They learn to swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue for them, and they hope their self-sacrifices will be recognized and appreciated, though they don't talk about them very much.





> As Naranjo explains, the other two Four subtypes are too sensitive to frustration. They either suffer too much or they make you suffer too much (as a compensation for their suffering). *The Self-Preservation subtype is the countertype Four because they go to the other extreme, developing a high capacity to internalize and bear frustration.* They make a virtue of resistance to frustration.





> *While the other two Four subtypes can be dramatic, the Self-preservation Four is more masochistic than melodramatic.* For this subtype, masochism is the ego or personality's strategy for getting love.





Tad Cooper said:


> @*Rose for a Heart*
> 
> Check these things out for clarification that 4s aren't 1D:
> "The Social Four appears emotionally sensitive (or oversensitive), feels thing deeply, and suffers more than most people. For this Four, there is a desire to be witnessed and seen in their suffering. They hope that if their suffering is sufficiently recognized and understood, they might be forgiven for their failures and deficiencies and loved unconditionally. "
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...-description-according-beatrice-chestnut.html
> 
> "In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as competition. These Fours don't feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about themselves. "
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...-description-according-beatrice-chestnut.html
> 
> So compare that to the SP description and you can see 4s are very varied!


Yes, even Naranjo says so...

See first minute.

"The contrast between the types of 4 may be the most striking."








Tad Cooper said:


> @mistakenforstranger I'm really interested in those bits you posted on shame, do you happen to have an example for type 7? (I'd like to compare it to type 8).
> 
> 
> I'm kind of stuck between those two, but could be something else....


Here was the link: http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/triads.html


----------



## Dangerose

Back to sanity, Type 2

Does this tritype seem ok?
@Krayfish, I know you said you saw 6>7, curious if other people see it?
and @mistakenforstranger I know you were leaning 4, wondering if anyone agrees with that or has an argument for it.
I did consider 4 for a long time in the past but for some reason something about it seems really wrong.

Also, instincts? sp 2 descriptions are so unrelatable, and the type feels so...specific and not-me-ish but there's not a single subtype description anywhere that sounds like me so...


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@The Night's Queen

Your 4 influence shows in how self-absorbed you can be, and how much you can go into a long rant (not meant in a mean way) about yourself. However, you typically come across as more receptive to other's evaluation of you, and whether they like you, than a actual 4 would. You can be insensitive (this is part of your shadow) though, and do not realize the implication of your words. Which feels like a blunted awareness of others in spite of the emphasis on over-awareness. Your defenses seem to center around anything that threatens your prideful self-image (2) instead of your unique self-image (4). You do not mind that your experiences and feelings can be easily related to, by others, but you do get defensive when your contributions are not being appreciated (pride). You have an eye for beauty, and you like creating that on here through your collages, avatar, signature, etc. - so heart type. 2 works. 

For your head fix, I had the impression that you do not hold on to excessive baggage and easily let go of grudges or hurt feelings, which would be more in line with 7. Though I could be wrong about this. 

I tried to provide an honest feedback, hope you don't mind.


----------



## Dangerose

Transcribing what Naranjo is saying about 2 subtypes, have trouble understanding him though

Let me go to number 2. Sexual 2 is like (two pollocks an ounce?) sx 2...the seducer...here in American culture it's more common to say a 2 is a helper which I find confusing because it's a...I think it betrays a lack of insight that they're not deeply helpful, they're strategically helpful. "I'll do anything for you" and then when the time comes it seems to be...living in the moment, they're incumbent with their offers of help...?...how they're feeling in the moment. I'd say that seduction is the main thing, suppression of feeling as a way of getting your allegiance, your whatever, the Latin term vampirosa or in France or in Spanish-speaking countries, vampiresse, someone who's irresistible, someone who's very beautiful, but it's a dangerous beauty, beauty that needs to have a hold on you and might end up eating you up. I frequently ask when I have groups of people of like feather together, I ask about going deeper into understand the neurotic needs, and I would say that it seems clearly enough that there's a need to seduce or a need for the desire of the other. But sometimes you get more original responses, and I have found that I find people who say, what I want is everything


* *





never heard this before I gotta say but this is right on track to what I'm saying and I say this a lot










They specialize in being, say, Helen of Troy, in being the archetype of the women for whom wars are fought, for whom men lose their lives, the irresistible women who can inspire great passions. And....some people are honest enough to say, no, I don't want the man really, I want a pocket Samson, I want a giant that will give me anything I want when I want it, it's a way to solve anything in life, it's a way to solve a problem in life, to have someone who will give you anything, so it may be money, it may be castles, it may be pampering, it's a blank check that person is wanting basically.


* *





This doesn't sound like me though, this is the really unrelatable thing about 2 for me.




So that's the sexual, and they're very different from socials, and in English you have the expression 'dumb blonde', that was a sx 2, they don't need to have much intelligence or to show it off, but a social 2, can never be a dumb blonde, they want to be somebody and to be somebody you need to use your mind more, a person who wants to be important in order to feed the pride, it's not the same strategy as having someone's passionate attachment. So this is a seducer of environments, a seducer of groups, a leader type. Seduction is there but it's a different kind of seduction, could also call it ambition but you could also call it a passion for standing above, you could say superiority is its own reward...


___________

This got boring, leaving it there lol


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> @The Night's Queen
> 
> Your 4 influence shows in how self-absorbed you can be, and how much you can go into a long rant (not meant in a mean way) about yourself. However, you typically come across as more receptive to other's evaluation of you, and whether they like you, than a actual 4 would. *You can be insensitive (this is part of your shadow) though, and do not realize the implication of your words. Which feels like a blunted awareness of others in spite of the emphasis on over-awareness. Your defenses seem to center around anything that threatens your prideful self-image (2)* instead of your unique self-image (4). You do not mind that your experiences and feelings can be easily related to, by others, but you do get defensive when your contributions are not being appreciated (pride). You have an eye for beauty, and you like creating that on here through your collages, avatar, signature, etc. - so heart type. 2 works.
> 
> For your head fix, I had the impression that you do not hold on to excessive baggage and easily let go of grudges or hurt feelings, which would be more in line with 7. Though I could be wrong about this.
> 
> I tried to provide an honest feedback, hope you don't mind.


Thanks so much, I appreciate this, thanks for being honest)
Curious about the bolded but you don't have to answer. I know it's awkward to answer and you already gave plenty of feedback.
Specifically I'm curious about not realizing the impact of my words...do you have an example?
I try to be considerate and add lots of softening clauses and disclaimers 
Again you don't have to answer, genuinely curious)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Rose for a Heart said:


> The fact that it's CORE to 4 emerges in how much they identify with what's wrong with them. Yes, I think this is a perfectly average description of 4. You are not understanding that the quotes and sources you use to justify the _kind _of 4, can be misused to justify mistypes. It can easily be taken out of context.


And on the other hand, not using quotes or sources at all to justify mistypes, which is far easier to do, because then there isn't a basis for anything and people can interpret and even redefine the system however they want to, which I see happening far too often on here, as you are doing now by saying shame isn't the specific emotion to Type 4 (as an image type)...I mean, did you even acknowledge the quotes I posted that contradict your position?

I find it quite ridiculous for so many people to say and parrot, "Descriptions are bullshit," all over the forum. I'm not saying you have done this, but I see it a lot, so that it allows people to interpret the type however they want to in order to justify their self as a type, or in this case, justify as others not being the type. Sure, some descriptions are better than others, but where did your understanding of the Enneagram come from in the first place, since you obviously didn't create the Enneagram?



Rose for a Heart said:


> Everyone feels all emotions, but there's a nuanced difference between someone who is an actual 4, and someone with a surface level understanding of the type whether or not they are a 4. I admit I have been the latter which is why I wasn't able to express myself clearly, even though I intuitively sensed all of the 4 stuff was true for me.


Though, a person can be so identified with themselves as to be unable to separate how they see themselves as that type from the theoretical understanding of the type, and then project what is essentially their own understanding of _themselves_ as being the ultimate truth of the type that they then subject on everyone to accept, if only because, "I am that type." At which point, other members then repeat this view of the "type" over and over again until the understanding of the type itself is only a reflection of the person (or persons) who identifies as the type. It is inevitable to do so, since we want to share our experiences and how we relate to the type, but using descriptions along with this adds some objectivity to the process. 



Rose for a Heart said:


> So they don't feel shame? Forget about types. Think about a gut type real person, you don't think they feel shame?


No, I don't believe they do in the way that image types do, because shame isn't their issue: It's rage/anger. From the 9s I know in real-life, for example, I do not see them being ashamed of themselves (at the core of their being) in the way that image types are. They all struggle to assert themselves because they are out of touch with their anger, or in other cases, hold back their anger from surfacing.



Rose for a Heart said:


> I don't know, I see you doing something I have done before. Trying to drive in something and getting louder about it even though I am wrong. *Having shame and withdrawing does not make you a certain type. That's not enough to type anyone at anything.*


A shame-based, withdrawn type. Hmm, I wonder what type that is?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

mistakenforstranger said:


> And on the other hand, not using quotes or sources at all to justify mistypes, which is far easier to do, because then there isn't a basis for anything and people can interpret and even redefine the system however they want to, which I see happening far too often on here, as you are doing now by saying shame isn't the specific emotion to Type 4 (as an image type)...I mean, did you even acknowledge the quotes I posted that contradict your position?


...
Shame isn't specific to any human being. I have said several times on this forum that I felt shame on a core level. It never got me typed at 4. I wonder why. 



> I find it quite ridiculous for so many people to say and parrot, "Descriptions are bullshit," all over the forum. I'm not saying you have done this, but I see it a lot,


So confront them about it, why are you taking it out on me? 



> so that it allows people to interpret the type however they want to in order to justify their self as a type, or in this case, justify as others not being the type. Sure, some descriptions are better than others, but where did your understanding of the Enneagram come from in the first place, since you obviously didn't create the Enneagram?


Where did your understanding of human beings come from in the first place, since you obviously didn't create them?

Your gripe is with how I won't acknowledge shame as core to the type, because you have quoted so many sources. I don't have the time for this bullshit. You know someone feels shame on a core level exactly like an image type does? No, you haven't lived their life. This is utter madness. What's more reasonable is letting them talk about what differentiates a type from another and seeing if it actually lines up with the type. And so now we come to...

(and yes, feel free to look through the shame thread on the main enneagram forum where so many people talk about what's wrong with them)



> Though, a person can be so identified with themselves as to be unable to separate how they see themselves as that type from the theoretical understanding of the type, and then project what is essentially their own understanding of _themselves_ as being the ultimate truth of the type that they then subject on everyone to accept, if only because, "I am that type." At which point, other members then repeat this view of the "type" over and over again until the understanding of the type itself is only a reflection of the person (or persons) who identifies as the type. It is inevitable to do so, since we want to share our experiences and how we relate to the type, but using descriptions along with this adds some objectivity to the process.


Damn those sheeple. @*Amaranthine* @*The Night's Queen* @*Dragheart Luard* and others who haven't spoken up - how come we all got to the same conclusion? It couldn't possibly be because it's reasonable. 

And yeah I borrow heavily from my own experience, but it wasn't just me here who disagreed with the typing. And feel free to say "you" if you are talking about me. Unless, of course, you are also taking out on me your issues with someone besides me. 



> No, I don't believe they do in the way that image types do, because shame isn't their issue: It's rage/anger. From the 9s I know in real-life, for example, I do not see them being ashamed of themselves (at the core of their being) in the way that image types are. They all struggle to assert themselves because they are out of touch with their anger, or in other cases, hold back their anger from surfacing.
> A shame-based, withdrawn type. Hmm, I wonder what type that is?


(This is NOT a shot at anyone particular)

Well, I have repressed my anger my entire life. I also don't like harmony and relationship with others disturbed. I have been like this my whole life, since I was a child. Type me at 9? I can give you more convincing "evidence" by quoting stuff? 

Why are you so aggressive about this?

I really should keep my word, instead of dragging it out so much. I am not going to feed myself bullshit that other people hand me. I am really, really sick of it. And I should have stood up for myself sooner, but I shouldn't be typing @*owlet* since she didn't want me to, and it's not possible (currently) to continue this conversation without confronting that with you. "Everything goes" isn't good enough in my book, sorry. I am sorry it invalidates you, but surely, you care about the truth too, right? If not, I am wasting my time.


----------



## Tad Cooper

mistakenforstranger said:


> Well, it is considered the counter-type of Type 4:
> Yes, even Naranjo says so...
> 
> See first minute.
> 
> "The contrast between the types of 4 may be the most striking."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here was the link: Enneagram Centres


Thanks loads!!


----------



## owlet

@Rose for a Heart Firstly, I said as long as someone is open to other options, I don't mind discussing things with them - however I do have a major problem with people just going 'you're not type 4 because.... you don't seem like one!' which is just not an argument, in my opinion, and is frankly annoying to deal with. If people are saying 'something 4ish would have come across by now' that's not an argument because you're not defining what you mean by that. If you don't define what you mean, you can easily change your argument to counter anything posted against it.

Secondly, I think, personally, it's telling that the people who I've actually had personal discussions with, who actually know me, all say type 4 works. They said the descriptions you were posting fitted me extremely well and they couldn't see how it was an argument against me being that type. Also, all of them have said a strong no to 9 so, as well as my research into it leading me to the conclusion I don't relate to the core, 9 is off the table and I'm not wasting my time discussing that any further with anyone.
The people on here who have offered their opinions against type 4 both haven't had anything more than a superficial conversation with me and also most of them actively dislike me, which will colour their opinions. I've been called passive aggressive by the people you tagged, yet the people who know me say I'm not passive aggressive in the slightest. Can you see what I mean with this? I appreciate input, but I also know myself best and I have studied the enneagram for a long, long time. Type 4 wasn't just picked at random, it was suggested in a typing thread a while back and I didn't consider it seriously until I had done a lot of research into it. I'm not typing as 4 'just because', but because I relate to the core of the type, as well as the rest of it. My 5 fix is strong, that's for sure, but in the end I don't distance myself from my emotions - I can't and I wouldn't want to.

As my final word on this: I may not fit your image of type 4, but I trust the evaluation of myself and people who genuinely know me, as well as those who construct reasoned arguments, over those who say 'you don't seem like one'. Type 4 is a varied type - all types are - because we're humans, individuals, and will all be different, react to things differently. To expect people to fit into easy categories is to reduce what people are, and to expect them to fit into categories you've defined is just plain unfair. Trust that I know myself better than you do. I gave you at least that respect when you said you didn't relate to 4w3 over 4w5.


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> @*Rose for a Heart* Firstly, I said as long as someone is open to other options, I don't mind discussing things with them - however I do have a major problem with people just going 'you're not type 4 because.... you don't seem like one!' which is just not an argument, in my opinion, and is frankly annoying to deal with. If people are saying 'something 4ish would have come across by now' that's not an argument because you're not defining what you mean by that. If you don't define what you mean, you can easily change your argument to counter anything posted against it.
> 
> Secondly, I think, personally, it's telling that the people who I've actually had personal discussions with, who actually know me, all say type 4 works. They said the descriptions you were posting fitted me extremely well and they couldn't see how it was an argument against me being that type. Also, all of them have said a strong no to 9 so, as well as my research into it leading me to the conclusion I don't relate to the core, 9 is off the table and I'm not wasting my time discussing that any further with anyone.
> The people on here who have offered their opinions against type 4 both haven't had anything more than a superficial conversation with me and also most of them actively dislike me, which will colour their opinions. I've been called passive aggressive by the people you tagged, yet the people who know me say I'm not passive aggressive in the slightest. Can you see what I mean with this? I appreciate input, but I also know myself best and I have studied the enneagram for a long, long time. Type 4 wasn't just picked at random, it was suggested in a typing thread a while back and I didn't consider it seriously until I had done a lot of research into it. I'm not typing as 4 'just because', but because I relate to the core of the type, as well as the rest of it. My 5 fix is strong, that's for sure, but in the end I don't distance myself from my emotions - I can't and I wouldn't want to.
> 
> As my final word on this: I may not fit your image of type 4, but I trust the evaluation of myself and people who genuinely know me, as well as those who construct reasoned arguments, over those who say 'you don't seem like one'. Type 4 is a varied type - all types are - because we're humans, individuals, and will all be different, react to things differently. To expect people to fit into easy categories is to reduce what people are, and to expect them to fit into categories you've defined is just plain unfair. Trust that I know myself better than you do. I gave you at least that respect when you said you didn't relate to 4w3 over 4w5.


So we're shutting this cabinet of curiosities and settling with you as 4w5?
(Also, you are so eloquent, I'm jealous)


----------



## owlet

Tad Cooper said:


> So we're shutting this cabinet of curiosities and settling with you as 4w5?
> (Also, you are so eloquent, I'm jealous)


Pretty much, yeah roud: (Thank you, that's very kind of you!)


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The Night's Queen said:


> Transcribing what Naranjo is saying about 2 subtypes, have trouble understanding him though
> 
> Let me go to number 2. Sexual 2 is like (two pollocks an ounce?) sx 2...the seducer...here in American culture it's more common to say a 2 is a helper which I find confusing because it's a...I think it betrays a lack of insight that they're not deeply helpful, they're strategically helpful. "I'll do anything for you" and then when the time comes it seems to be...living in the moment, they're incumbent with their offers of help...?...how they're feeling in the moment. I'd say that seduction is the main thing, suppression of feeling as a way of getting your allegiance, your whatever, the Latin term vampirosa or in France or in Spanish-speaking countries, vampiresse, someone who's irresistible, someone who's very beautiful, but it's a dangerous beauty, beauty that needs to have a hold on you and might end up eating you up. I frequently ask when I have groups of people of like feather together, I ask about going deeper into understand the neurotic needs, and I would say that it seems clearly enough that there's a need to seduce or a need for the desire of the other. But sometimes you get more original responses, and I have found that I find people who say, *what I want is everything*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> never heard this before I gotta say but this is right on track to what I'm saying and I say this a lot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They specialize in being, say, Helen of Troy, *in being the archetype of the women for whom wars are fought*, for whom men lose their lives, the irresistible women who can *inspire great passions*. And....some people are honest enough to say, no, I don't want the man really, I want a pocket Samson, I want a giant that will give me anything I want when I want it, it's a way to solve anything in life, it's a way to solve a problem in life, to have someone who will give you anything, so it may be money, it may be castles, it may be pampering, it's a blank check that person is wanting basically.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't sound like me though, this is the really unrelatable thing about 2 for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So that's the sexual, and they're very different from socials, and in English you have the expression 'dumb blonde', that was a sx 2, they don't need to have much intelligence or to show it off, but a social 2, can never be a dumb blonde, they *want to be somebody* and to be somebody you need to use your mind more, a person who wants to be important in order to feed the pride, it's not the same strategy as having someone's passionate attachment. So this is a seducer of environments, a seducer of groups, a leader type. Seduction is there but it's a different kind of seduction, could also call it ambition but you could also call it *a passion for standing above, you could say superiority is its own reward...*
> 
> 
> ___________
> 
> This got boring, leaving it there lol


Ive highlighted those things that are in line with my impression of you from our interactions, here.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@owlet , just to make sure, you do or _don't _want me to point out when I see things differently in what you or others are claiming?


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet* , just to make sure, you do or _don't _want me to point out when I see things differently in what you or others are claiming?


To be honest, at this point, I feel I've heard your argument. However, if you have more to say, you can PM me a comprehensive argument (no vibes) so long as you respect the fact I know myself better than you do and will have the final say - and this won't result in posts related to any discussion we have around the forum.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

owlet said:


> @Rose for a Heart Firstly, I said as long as someone is open to other options, I don't mind discussing things with them - however I do have a major problem with people just going 'you're not type 4 because.... you don't seem like one!' which is just not an argument, in my opinion, and is frankly annoying to deal with. If people are saying 'something 4ish would have come across by now' that's not an argument because you're not defining what you mean by that. If you don't define what you mean, you can easily change your argument to counter anything posted against it.


Agreed. The argument should have some meat to it, whether that be backing it up, asking questions, presenting the logic, or SOMEthing.

Something 4ish has definitely come across. Anyone who says otherwise isn't listening. I'd be shocked if your heart fix were anything else, really. I've thought about you a bit more, and what I'm not seeing that would say 2 for you is pride. You are not prideful about your image. You are more down to earth than that. And I don't think you are Three, either. So despite seeing Twoish tendencies, those tendencies to me seem to come from Four. 

My main concern is figuring out the core, which as I have said earlier, is difficult for me to get a grip on. 



owlet said:


> Secondly, I think, personally, it's telling that the people who I've actually had personal discussions with, who actually know me, all say type 4 works. They said the descriptions you were posting fitted me extremely well and they couldn't see how it was an argument against me being that type. Also, all of them have said a strong no to 9 so, as well as my research into it leading me to the conclusion I don't relate to the core, 9 is off the table and I'm not wasting my time discussing that any further with anyone.


Well, that leaves me in the position of believing you and potentially being wrong if said friends are wrong, or not believing you and insulting you in the process. Hm, I'll choose the former. 9 is off the table. 



owlet said:


> As my final word on this: I may not fit your image of type 4, but I trust the evaluation of myself and people who genuinely know me, as well as those who construct reasoned arguments, over those who say 'you don't seem like one'. Type 4 is a varied type - all types are - because we're humans, individuals, and will all be different, react to things differently. *To expect people to fit into easy categories is to reduce what people are, and to expect them to fit into categories you've defined is just plain unfair.* Trust that I know myself better than you do. I gave you at least that respect when you said you didn't relate to 4w3 over 4w5.


Not to mention, that what category a person fits in is going to change and evolve as they do. When a Four becomes healthy and moves to One, if someone just met that person, wouldn't they think "Huh, this must be a One"? 

To nail someone down and decide that they must be just one thing, you also are deciding that the person will stay that way. We have to question these things more deeply than the surface level. *nods*


----------



## Rose for a Heart

brightflashes said:


> It is clear to me that @*owlet* is a type 4w5. If I had to suggest any alternate type and was hard pressed to do so, I'd suggest type 5w4 only* because the strengths of 8 could also be divined by her ability to hold her ground against all of these arguments.
> *
> @*owlet*,* you have a clear sense of identity which cannot seem to be broken no matter what sort of adversity you face. Your demand for substantiation and strength of argument only reinforces* your wing 5. The way you have carried yourself throughout this ordeal shows that you are well on your path to integration. I admire your ability to keep your head in this and I hope that you are getting something out of this because at this point - and I've only just now included myself in these arguments - I'm tired of this whole conversation without proper substantiation.


This is easily gut type: 


> The essential qualities of this Centre involves the deep connection with the intelligence of the body, their instinct. Instinct is a type of knowledge that is not often recognized. *Our instincts involve our sense of vitality and assertion*. Instinct involves our inner wants and our ability to *assert them in a way that is consistent and harmonious with the world around us. *
> To compensate, the personality *tries to create and maintain a sense of self, where they are free to influence the world, but not be influenced by it. Consequently, the types in the Body Centre are motivated to find ways to feel autonomous and independent*. One way to feel a sense of self is to carry tension in our bodies. Another is to create boundaries around us.
> Unfortunately, when Eights, Nines, and Ones do not get the autonomy that they seek, their underlying feelings of rage rise up. They may become aggressive *(in a way, proving their independence). They way become resistant to change, again to bolster feelings of autonomy. *


----------



## owlet

@*Rose for a Heart* I said you could PM me if you wanted to, not continue the discussion of my type here.

ETA: From here on, I'm not replying to any further discussion of my type, except potentially to report it if it breaks forum rules. If I find people have been discussing this around other areas of the forum, I will report those posts. If anyone wants to have a discussion about my type, please send me a PM and I'll get back to you when I can.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

owlet said:


> @*Rose for a Heart* I said you could PM me if you wanted to, not continue the discussion of my type here.


Yeah, sorry, I posted that before I saw your post.


----------



## orbit

About shame, I personally experience little of it~ I can't remember the last time I have felt ashamed of myself
(Which is why, of course, I don't type as a heart core and consider my heart fix as of little influence)

Actually going off that thought, do people experience their third fix strongly? Thus far I've observed that the third fix seems negible compared to the first fix and the core type.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@Rose for a Heart that information about gut types helped me to confirm that at least I'm not a head type despite suffering of anxiety disorder, as I'm stubborn, refuse to let others mold me into the way that they want me to become, I can be quite uncompromising when I have to do things that don't align with my sense of integrity or that I don't like at all. I've been called rigid as hell too as I don't like to adapt to circumstances that make me feel disgusted and I tell why I won't do the thing. I can be convinced if there's a solid argument, otherwise I do my own thing or end arguing a lot when other people refuse to understand my point of view. I prefer to ignore petty stuff as it's a waste of time to bother with them, but I put my foot down when something is serious.


----------



## Dangerose

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Ive highlighted those things that are in line with my impression of you from our interactions, here.


Thanks)
Wish I'd made it to the sp 2 now)



owlet said:


> The people on here who have offered their opinions against type 4 both haven't had anything more than a superficial conversation with me and also most of them actively dislike me, which will colour their opinions.


I just want to be clear, you might not have had me in mind but you probably did - I don't actively (or passively) dislike you. Or @Immolate or @Tad Cooper btw or anyone else that we've had a history of argument. Just to be clear on that front; think you're fine people and not holding onto previous tensions.


----------



## Paradigm

orbit said:


> About shame, I personally experience little of it~ I can't remember the last time I have felt ashamed of myself
> (Which is why, of course, I don't type as a heart core and consider my heart fix as of little influence)
> 
> Actually going off that thought, do people experience their third fix strongly? Thus far I've observed that the third fix seems negible compared to the first fix and the core type.


I'm the same, though it's possible (or probable) I just don't know how to recognize shame in myself. Like, everything else has superseded shame for me. I can recognize the ways I act 4w5ish (since you asked), sometimes, but shame in itself just... doesn't feel like a real thing, I guess.


----------



## orbit

Paradigm said:


> I'm the same, though it's possible (or probable) I just don't know how to recognize shame in myself. Like, everything else has superseded shame for me. I can recognize the ways I act 4w5ish (since you asked), sometimes, but shame in itself just... doesn't feel like a real thing, I guess.


For me when I make a mistake or come across an imperfection I lean towards anxiety about how this imperfection could affect the future or if it is a trend I should fix and (more prominently) irritation that I came across this imperfection. I forget that I need patience and perspective--that this might be a small bump in the road that isn't worth getting worked up over or that I can be fine with obstacles and challenges existing or these challenges have rewards or these struggles will make me stronger in the end and these struggles shape me, etc. Don't have that maturity and experience yet to remember and have faith in these things ewe 

It never occurs to me that I'm broken or should feel ashamed of myself because of these things. Even though I'm probably the main perpetrator of my own suffering hm. 

Edit: it's like when bad things happen I never take it personally so it affects my self worth. It just affects my perception of the quality of life and the perception of my abilities which still don't really feel like me. I've thought "life is not worth living" or "I can't survive life" but I've never thought "I am worthless."

I've been wondering if the Tritype should be thrown out and whether people should only focus on their first two types but I suppose since you can trace how your second fix affects you, this theory is bust. If I'm willing to base my thinking on one contradictory data point XP


----------



## Rose for a Heart

mistakenforstranger said:


> And on the other hand, not using quotes or sources at all to justify mistypes, which is far easier to do, because then there isn't a basis for anything and people can interpret and even redefine the system however they want to, which I see happening far too often on here, as you are doing now by saying shame isn't the specific emotion to Type 4 (as an image type)...I mean, did you even acknowledge the quotes I posted that contradict your position?
> No, I don't believe they do in the way that image types do, because shame isn't their issue: It's rage/anger. From the 9s I know in real-life, for example, I do not see them being ashamed of themselves (at the core of their being) in the way that image types are. They all struggle to assert themselves because they are out of touch with their anger, or in other cases, hold back their anger from surfacing.





















> *Shame: The Quintessential Emotion*
> According to [] shame is a complex emotional response *that all humans acquire during early development. “It’s a normal feeling about ourselves and our behavior,”* he said, “not necessarily a symptom of an illness or pathology. In many situations, it’s abnormal if we don’t experience it.”


From here. 



> Discussions of children’s motivations and behavior too often overlook the importance of feelings of pride and shame. A child’s need to feel proud, and to avoid feelings of shame, *is a fundamental motivation, and remains fundamental, throughout her life. It would be difficult to overestimate the importance of these emotions in the psychological development* - and emotional health - of our children.
> 
> *Shame is our instinctive response to personal failure or inadequacy*, especially the public exposure of inadequacy. Embarrassment is a temporary and mild form of shame; humiliation, aloneness, and self-hatred are severe forms of shame.


From here. 

Good old wikipedia: 



> Shame is a painful, social emotion that can be seen as resulting "...from comparison of the self's action with the self's standards...". but which may equally stem from comparison of the self's state of being with the* ideal social context's standard*. Thus, shame may stem from volitional action or simply self-regard; no action by the shamed being is required: simply existing is enough. *Both the comparison and standards are enabled by socialization.* Though usually considered an emotion, shame may also variously be considered an affect, cognition, state, or condition.


You cannot claim type 4 for anyone who talks about shame and self-acceptance. This is utterly human. You need more. 

And no @mistakenforstranger , people who "don't struggle as much with shame" don't really support your point. It's a weak argument and you know it.


----------



## orbit

Guts can transcend their anger, heads can transcend their anxiety, hearts can transcend their shame. How hard it is for them to transcend and how much of a focus it is determines ones type. 
Ones can accept imperfections and relax. All humans can accept imperfections. But it is fundamental to the one's narrative how they transcended their wrath and resentment. I think the same applies with all types. Fours can feel whole with meaning.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I have been thinking more about all this. I don't think people care about the truth on this forum. Those who do probably end up being super disliked. I still think everyone has a yearning to connect with something authentic inside them, at least I hope so - I know I do. 

I have resisted those that have tried to be honest with me, thinking they were *evil*. I have however, always been attracted to whatever and whoever will push me so far I will have to break my defenses. Most people don't break themselves to grow - which is fine but, it's not right that true growth, which is what this forum was meant for, should be stifled. 

Anyways, I don't - can't - share a lot publicly because I am afraid of being attacked for saying what I really think. Or have excuses thrown at me instead of actual arguments. I have really withdrawn into myself, and I was startled to find out how much more fluidly I was able to express myself one on one through PM. Others might have more courage than I do, I can't seem to open up anymore. 

If a type is evident everywhere, that's not "superficlal typing" it's reality. This is probably your type, I am sorry. 

Even if type is only evident temporarily, you *still *acted that way, and it doesn't make much sense to claim otherwise. 

I just wanted to make my thoughts known, I don't want to be attacked for this.


----------



## Irohana

Rose for a Heart said:


> If a type is evident everywhere, that's not "superficlal typing" it's reality. This is probably your type, I am sorry.
> 
> Even if type is only evident temporarily, you *still *acted that way, and it doesn't make much sense to claim otherwise.
> 
> I just wanted to make my thoughts known, I don't want to be attacked for this.


Kind of disagree with even this; there's a difference between reasonable guesses of types, and people's views of those suggestions, you can be deluded into thinking you're a certain type for a while, and because people around you only see a bit of you, you get a lot of support in that. Basically, truth and opinions aren't the same thing, is what I'm saying.

Oh, and this isn't an attack on you. :laughing:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Rose for a Heart said:


> I have been thinking more about all this. I don't think people care about the truth on this forum. Those who do probably end up being super disliked. I still think everyone has a yearning to connect with something authentic inside them, at least I hope so - I know I do.
> 
> I have resisted those that have tried to be honest with me, thinking they were *evil*. I have however, always been attracted to whatever and whoever will push me so far I will have to break my defenses. Most people don't break themselves to grow - which is fine but, it's not right that true growth, which is what this forum was meant for, should be stifled.
> 
> Anyways, I don't - can't - share a lot publicly because I am afraid of being attacked for saying what I really think. Or have excuses thrown at me instead of actual arguments. I have really withdrawn into myself, and I was startled to find out how much more fluidly I was able to express myself one on one through PM. Others might have more courage than I do, I can't seem to open up anymore.
> 
> If a type is evident everywhere, that's not "superficlal typing" it's reality. This is probably your type, I am sorry.
> 
> Even if type is only evident temporarily, you *still *acted that way, and it doesn't make much sense to claim otherwise.
> 
> I just wanted to make my thoughts known, I don't want to be attacked for this.


The truth is subjective, so one truth can be different to another. I like to think of it as people have their 'worlds' and in that space they have their own truths and apply it to actual reality...saying something is truth will not make it so for everyone else, so reality's truth is based upon the majority.

^ not an attack

EDIT:
Naruto manga agrees with me!


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Tad Cooper said:


> The truth is subjective, so one truth can be different to another. I like to think of it as people have their 'worlds' and in that space they have their own truths and apply it to actual reality...saying something is truth will not make it so for everyone else, so reality's truth is based upon the majority.
> 
> ^ not an attack


Sure but can you identify an inner knowing inside you that doesn't have anything to do with majority, or the outside? To me, that is truth. That is what we are all ultimately seeking. I don't know about you, but it tugs at me specially when I am being defensive. That I know deep inside me there's a side to things I don't want to see but it's there. That a depth of being is possible, instead of this superficial one.


----------



## brightflashes

Rose for a Heart said:


> This is easily gut type:


Sorry, Rose, I wasn't posting that to get into an argument with anyone or to have my words twisted to mean something else. I don't have any interest in talking to you about it. I am currently working on learning more about typing others and, perhaps later, I'll gain the vocabulary necessary to engage in banter. I don't have the vocabulary, energy, or desire for now. 

One thing I'm noticing, though, have you considered that the resistance to change that you are referring to might apply to you as well (you seem to be very invested in owlet being a 9)? It appears that @owlet has let this go a while ago. Why aren't you?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

brightflashes said:


> Sorry, Rose, I wasn't posting that to get into an argument with anyone or to have my words twisted to mean something else. I don't have any interest in talking to you about it. I am currently working on learning more about typing others and, perhaps later, I'll gain the vocabulary necessary to engage in banter. I don't have the vocabulary, energy, or desire for now.
> 
> One thing I'm noticing, though, have you considered that the resistance to change that you are referring to might apply to you as well (you seem to be very invested in owlet being a 9)? It appears that @*owlet* has let this go a while ago. Why aren't you?


Your words are not being "twisted," you just don't want to see things another way. And I already did, this was before I saw her post. And yes, I am aware of the 9 in me.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Rose for a Heart said:


> Sure but can you identify an inner knowing inside you that doesn't have anything to do with majority, or the outside? To me, that is truth. That is what we are all ultimately seeking. I don't know about you, but it tugs at me specially when I am being defensive. That I know deep inside me there's a side to things I don't want to see but it's there. That a depth of being is possible, instead of this superficial one.


Im glad we can agree that truth is personal! (You basically just said what I wrote but in your own way I believe, your own 'truth' as it were).


----------



## hornpipe2

Rose for a Heart said:


> Anyways, I don't - can't - share a lot publicly because I am afraid of being attacked for saying what I really think. Or have excuses thrown at me instead of actual arguments. I have really withdrawn into myself, and I was startled to find out how much more fluidly I was able to express myself one on one through PM. Others might have more courage than I do, I can't seem to open up anymore.


You seem pretty concerned about what other people think about you. Are you sure you are not a type 3?


----------



## brightflashes

Rose for a Heart said:


> you just don't want to see things another way.


I think you'd be surprised to find out just how inaccurate that is. Still, I'm not interested in this conversation. I view truth in a different way than you do. I think humans are complicated; I don't think the truth is.

PS - Just because it really irritated me that you said that it doesn't seem to you that people care about the truth on this forum. I care about the truth. I care about taking this seriously. When this sort of bickering happens, no one can seem to get to the truth. Take, for example, that I asked for a resource for more accurate typing of others on this very thread and no one gave a recommendation at all. I know I made a resources thread as well. It seems that the more seriously I take this as I am attempting to explore for real answers, the less others are willing to help me. That's cool; I don't _need_ other people's help to find what I need to explore. It certainly would be a lot easier, though.


----------



## Paradigm

God, this started up again?



Tad Cooper said:


> Im glad we can agree that truth is personal! (You basically just said what I wrote but in your own way I believe, your own 'truth' as it were).


However, the entire concept of "subjective truth" is probably the cornerstone of why you guys are so worked up about this. I've noticed that there's a few people - @owlet stands out the most purely because I've replied to her the most, but there's others I don't think I've engaged - in this thread recently are stating traits in a distinct manner that implies they possess or realize that trait, then turning around and saying "no, I meant X" or "you're misunderstanding" when called out. I know it may not be on purpose, which means it's probably not even a conscious maneuver, but those kinds of statements are why I've gone, "Wait, no, that's not what XYZ means" several times. I suspect people "against" @owlet, such as @Rose for a Heart, are probably also picking up on this and getting more frustrated with each post.

(Edit: And I'm sure Rose and "her side" have done similar tactics, but to say I've skimmed the last five pages aside from a few outliers is an overstatement.)

It all comes from a "subjective truth," which is inherently non-conducive to these types of conversations. I'm not saying it's possible to get away from entirely (it's psychology-lite, the most subjective subject ever!) but there needs to be a common ground and it's like you guys are arguing over what is that common ground. (In a way, it's a classic Ti vs. Fi battle to the death.) You guys disagree on that common ground and are basically hitting heads because of that. And it kinda needs to stop because it's not working.



hornpipe2 said:


> You seem pretty concerned about what other people think about you. Are you sure you are not a type 3?


Passive aggressive post not even worthy of your time. Try harder.


----------



## owlet

@Paradigm sometimes when you write something you think is obvious with how you meant it, other people take a different meaning from it. Hence saying 'there's been a misunderstanding'. You're not calling anyone out, you're just taking something different than what I meant. I didn't reply to your last post with that because I was honestly fed up with being treated like I had no understanding of the enneagram when I've been studying it for years and constantly question myself with things. That's the last I'll say on the matter - and I don't want this brought up again because it's frankly just annoying at this point.


----------



## Figure

Temporarily closed for review.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit 6/19: Reopened. Please continue discussion of the overall topic, but stay on topic and observe forum rules against trolling, inflammatory comments, unsolicited typing.

Please also note rule #13 (below), and consider this message a public warning to all that any further arguing from the previous discussion will result in infraction. 





> 13. Complaining About Staff Decisions
> Public complaints about staff decisions are disruptive to the forum and can derail active threads. Talking to staff through the approved channels enables us to deal with problems directly, with minimal issues.
> 
> To provide more channels through which members can address concerns about moderation decisions or forum policy, we have implemented two complaint forums, one public and one private. For the public complaint forum, posts will not become visible to the membership until they have been reviewed and approved by staff. (Note: Banned members will be able to access this public complaint forum.) The private complaint forum works normally, but you can see only the threads that you have created, so that any issues you raise will remain private between you and staff.
> 
> Public questioning or complaints about mod decisions occurring outside of these two complaint forums or PMs will lead to disciplinary action.


----------



## Tad Cooper

So guys, am I a 7 or an 8?


----------



## brightflashes

Tad Cooper said:


> So guys, am I a 7 or an 8?


What are the main reasons you have for thinking that you might be a 7 vs an 8? I have some ideas, but both of them would be going through some biases I have toward 7s and 8s which might be based more on surface level things and not the real "meat" of the theory.


----------



## owlet

@*Tad Cooper* some quotes about 7 and 8 from Riso and Hudson's Personality Types which might be helpful.

*7:*


> Sevens are curious, easily stimulated, and eager for new ideas and experiences. However, the degree to which they are anxious about themselves or their lives is the degree to which their minds race out of control, leading them to a widening circle of unfocused behaviours. (p.261)





> Sevens [...] are fearful and anxious about their ability to cope with their inner environment - their grief, loss, and anxiety. As a result, they flee outward into the external environment and seek to interact with it sufficiently to avoid dealing with their internal emotional pain.
> Sevens attempt to control their level of anxiety by keeping their attention occupied with ideas and possibilities that excite them. (p.263)



*8:*


> [Eights] possess a powerful connection with their instinctive drives which gives them tremendous energy, self-confidence, and the desire to impact their world in some significant way. (p.300)





> Basically, Eights are driven by the fear of being dominated, harmed, or controlled by others. As we have just seen, they view the world as a fairly dog-eat-dog place, and they do not intend to be eaten. Consequently, Eights believe they must keep up their guard and toughen themselves against the harsh realities of life, but in order to do this they must repress their own tenderness and vulnerability. (p.303)



These are just a couple of things, but they demonstrate a pretty distinct focus for each of the types, so might be helpful!


----------



## Tad Cooper

brightflashes said:


> What are the main reasons you have for thinking that you might be a 7 vs an 8? I have some ideas, but both of them would be going through some biases I have toward 7s and 8s which might be based more on surface level things and not the real "meat" of the theory.


Thanks for the reply!

So with enneagram stuff I had a good look at all the types and am very sure I'm not 1,2,3,6 or 9 for a variety of reasons (I can explain if it's helpful but wont for now).
I typed as 4 for a while, because of my general feeling of not fitting in/being odd etc but put that more down to social anxiety overall and I dont have the core motivations of type 4 as far as I can tell (i.e. I relate very much to parts of the description, but my motivations arent focused on my significance or authenticity etc). I also thought possibly a SO 5, but don't have a huge focus on my mental world (I am there a lot, but am also a very physical person - I need to be outside and can't spend ages focused on one thing unless I'm really into it...However, I do have the need to be prepared and don't feel equipped to handle the external world well - over time this went from me hiding/avoiding it to trying to tackle it directly, mostly because I got frustrated I wasn't able to deal with it).

So this leaves type 7 and 8.

Type 7 - I do a lot to avoid my issues. I have a lot of fear and anxiety (I actually have social and general anxiety, as well as depression and PTSD stuff etc, so have a lot of unpleasant stuff going on internally) and the higher the levels of anxiety/stress the more I do. An example is when my mind is in a bad place or I feel it going there I have to get up and do things, make myself see people, go to work more and for longer etc just to keep my mind busy. I generally have an extremely active mind and body, they always want to be doing things, but usually not at the same time, so I'll go to work really early, stay for a long time doing stuff, then come home and watch videos and play games and chat online and read stuff. I'm a social introvert and very easily overwhelmed which probably makes my typing as 7 a bit odd.... 

I have a big focus on not being excluded or left out from activities as well - fear of missing out, keeping my options open (i.e. my boss asked if I wanted to carry on as a technician or do a phd and I said both...and generally if people ask me questions that make me commit I give an ambiguous answer - I always have a get-out plan for every situation too). I also really want to have a good time generally, but my idea of a good time can be very different from other people's, and I'll try most things at least once out of curiosity!

Type 8 - So some similar stuff from type 7, but also other bits. Big issues about being controlled. I want freedom and independence and get really stressed when people put pressure on me or hold me in place or make me do stuff. I like being asked rather than told to do things. I am also extremely protective of people close to me.

I think those are the main things?


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> @*Tad Cooper* some quotes about 7 and 8 from Riso and Hudson's Personality Types which might be helpful.
> 
> *7:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *8:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are just a couple of things, but they demonstrate a pretty distinct focus for each of the types, so might be helpful!


Thanks very much!!

I think out of these...I relate to both quite equally...
I push myself hard to prove to myself I can deal with everything, but also am extremely excitable and curious for example....


----------



## Paradigm

Tad Cooper said:


> So guys, am I a 7 or an 8?


Yup, without reasons (or links to reasons), the best thing I got for you is your writing style oozes positivity type. And that could be like a (self-)trained behavior...

Edit: walked away while 'writing' this, my bad.


----------



## brightflashes

Tad Cooper said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> So with enneagram stuff I had a good look at all the types and am very sure I'm not 1,2,3,6 or 9 for a variety of reasons (I can explain if it's helpful but wont for now).
> I typed as 4 for a while, because of my general feeling of not fitting in/being odd etc but put that more down to social anxiety overall and I dont have the core motivations of type 4 as far as I can tell (i.e. I relate very much to parts of the description, but my motivations arent focused on my significance or authenticity etc). I also thought possibly a SO 5, but don't have a huge focus on my mental world (I am there a lot, but am also a very physical person - I need to be outside and can't spend ages focused on one thing unless I'm really into it...However, I do have the need to be prepared and don't feel equipped to handle the external world well - over time this went from me hiding/avoiding it to trying to tackle it directly, mostly because I got frustrated I wasn't able to deal with it).
> 
> So this leaves type 7 and 8.
> 
> Type 7 - I do a lot to avoid my issues. I have a lot of fear and anxiety (I actually have social and general anxiety, as well as depression and PTSD stuff etc, so have a lot of unpleasant stuff going on internally) and the higher the levels of anxiety/stress the more I do. An example is when my mind is in a bad place or I feel it going there I have to get up and do things, make myself see people, go to work more and for longer etc just to keep my mind busy. I generally have an extremely active mind and body, they always want to be doing things, but usually not at the same time, so I'll go to work really early, stay for a long time doing stuff, then come home and watch videos and play games and chat online and read stuff. I'm a social introvert and very easily overwhelmed which probably makes my typing as 7 a bit odd....
> 
> I have a big focus on not being excluded or left out from activities as well - fear of missing out, keeping my options open (i.e. my boss asked if I wanted to carry on as a technician or do a phd and I said both...and generally if people ask me questions that make me commit I give an ambiguous answer - I always have a get-out plan for every situation too). I also really want to have a good time generally, but my idea of a good time can be very different from other people's, and I'll try most things at least once out of curiosity!
> 
> Type 8 - So some similar stuff from type 7, but also other bits. Big issues about being controlled. I want freedom and independence and get really stressed when people put pressure on me or hold me in place or make me do stuff. I like being asked rather than told to do things. I am also extremely protective of people close to me.
> 
> I think those are the main things?


Based on this response, I'd say that you're a type 7w8 with an 8 gut fix. I don't see enough 6 to say that's your wing. However, you probably have a lot of information on that which I don't have access to. I would go with the first one for you (7w8) over the second one (8w7). I'm still practicing on typing others, though. It seems that typing you would be more based on vague feelings of what I get from you. You seem more easy going and laid back than most of the 8s I know. However, this is part of those biases I was talking about. It also doesn't help that I can see both for you lol.


----------



## Brains

Rose for a Heart said:


> I have been thinking more about all this. I don't think people care about the truth on this forum. Those who do probably end up being super disliked. I still think everyone has a yearning to connect with something authentic inside them, at least I hope so - I know I do.
> 
> I have resisted those that have tried to be honest with me, thinking they were *evil*.


Sounds familiar 



Rose for a Heart said:


> _If a type is evident everywhere, that's not "superficlal typing" it's reality._ This is probably your type, I am sorry.
> 
> Even if type is only evident temporarily, you *still *acted that way, and it doesn't make much sense to claim otherwise.
> 
> I just wanted to make my thoughts known, I don't want to be attacked for this.


This is spot on. Perhaps the most frustrating conceit of many typology forums is that they deal, presumably, with personality, yet have a membership that insists that personality and character does not show. Somehow, the talk still remains about what they are like, in terms of tone and action. But it does not show, if it'd say something that contradicts their self-identification.

It's true that "you do this" or "you do that this way" is hard to identify with - it doesn't speak to a person's felt experience so it feels more superficial. Despite that, it says a hell of a lot of our _character_, the examination of which is what study of personality is. The biggest thing that makes typology interesting is that it tries to paint that inner experience to some extent. But ultimately, relating to some metaphysical concept especially (ie. holding the Holy Ideas as the primary typing method), or insisting that inner self-identification trumps what can be seen both veer away from the study of personality, and from what typology itself is in the first place.

Typology is taking something that is - say, medieval swords - premaking categories/classifications that describe them, and then slotting the objects of study into these.



owlet said:


> The people on here who have offered their opinions against type 4 both haven't had anything more than a superficial conversation with me and also most of them actively dislike me, which will colour their opinions.


For the record, however much I bang my head against the wall, I basically never dislike the people themselves - I can be frustrated by the argument and by people's behavior within the context of that argument, or how they do typology, but my irritation is near always aimed at a very narrow slice of the person.




owlet said:


> I've been called passive aggressive by the people you tagged, yet the people who know me say I'm not passive aggressive in the slightest. Can you see what I mean with this? I appreciate input, but I also know myself best and I have studied the enneagram for a long, long time. Type 4 wasn't just picked at random, it was suggested in a typing thread a while back and I didn't consider it seriously until I had done a lot of research into it. I'm not typing as 4 'just because', but because I relate to the core of the type, as well as the rest of it. My 5 fix is strong, that's for sure, but in the end I don't distance myself from my emotions - I can't and I wouldn't want to.
> 
> As my final word on this: I may not fit your image of type 4, but I trust the evaluation of myself and people who genuinely know me, as well as those who construct reasoned arguments, over those who say 'you don't seem like one'. Type 4 is a varied type - all types are - because we're humans, individuals, and will all be different, react to things differently. To expect people to fit into easy categories is to reduce what people are, and to expect them to fit into categories you've defined is just plain unfair. Trust that I know myself better than you do. I gave you at least that respect when you said you didn't relate to 4w3 over 4w5.


Doing the Enneagram for a long time isn't necessarily a guarantee of accuracy, just time spent on typology. I'm less likely to be wrong now than I was last year, for example, but there's still always a chance I'm wrong. It's why I still reread books and talk to people and give near any reasonable case for my type the time of day. Won't hurt and I might just learn something, best of all about myself. A crapton of this affair is about dealing with personal blindspots, after all. Can't be aware of all of them.



brightflashes said:


> One thing I'm noticing, though, have you considered that the resistance to change that you are referring to might apply to you as well (you seem to be very invested in owlet being a 9)?


These kinds of things, at least for me, aren't usually investments in "I have to put a 9 stamp on this person's forehead" so much as "just can't see 4, keep seeing 9-y stuff, so keep on insisting that". I pretty much just call things how I see them and change when I become convinced otherwise. I'm pretty damn stubborn about how things come across, though - years of Jungian typology forums where people insist shit is something they want it to be has left me with little in the way of respect with people's self-identifications vs. impressions I get from them communicating honestly. One too many a bubblygushy hypersentimental "INTJ", one too many a pretentious douche escaped from r/iamverysmart and so on.


----------



## owlet

@Brains I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't read my post saying I was closing the topic of my type etc., so now you know and please don't discuss this any further.


----------



## Brains

owlet said:


> @Brains I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't read my post saying I was closing the topic of my type etc., so now you know and please don't discuss this any further.


I specifically didn't discuss any typings for a reason, just wanted to underline that I don't dislike you or most anyone else due to typing-related squabbles.


----------



## owlet

Brains said:


> I specifically didn't discuss any typings for a reason, just wanted to underline that I don't dislike you or most anyone else due to typing-related squabbles.


Okay, cool. Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@*Brains* one thing that I agree with is that even some surface like traits can point out to deeper issues, so observing is quite important while typing and refining archetypes. There are things that the theory can't really cover as an archetype can't consider all angles of a person, so actually talking and seeing how someone reacts to the questions can give away some clues. This has helped me while trying to type my friends, and I also show them some information for seeing if my perception of them makes sense to them as well. I think it helps that they don't study Enneagram, so they haven't really distorted their self perception much.


----------



## brightflashes

Brains said:


> These kinds of things, at least for me, aren't usually investments in "I have to put a X stamp on this person's forehead" so much as "just can't see X, keep seeing Y stuff, so keep on insisting that".


This is something that I have noticed I have some issues with when I see people typing others. Some people mention "vibes" or "feels" which, to me, are vague. When I see this sort of thing, I get frustrated myself because I'm more of the kind of person who needs:

I get care bear impressions from you and here is why
- You have given me at least 2 care bear stares
- You have mentioned living in the clouds
- You own two rainbow slides and have talked about them often
- You say that you have a stamp on your stomach.

I acknowledge you could be a care bear cousin, but you have never given me any reason to believe that. (I know it's a silly example, but I'm going for neutral here).

Perhaps it's easier for me to understand where someone is coming from when they spell things out that way. 



Brains said:


> I pretty much just call things how I see them and change when I become convinced otherwise. I'm pretty damn stubborn about how things come across, though - years of Jungian typology forums where people insist shit is something they want it to be...


I don't think I've ever actually let you know that I know where you're coming from on this and I feel it, too. I am just more apt to give people the benefit of the doubt mostly because I'm aware of how mental illness can play into the way one perceives themselves (it has definitely affected my ability to examine myself accurately). I see some of this stuff going on here at PerC, but I am very strong on the belief that I need to back up my opinion with facts or resources and any timidity that I experience in the meantime is just that I want to trust my knowledge of Enneagram(by rereading certain people and checking out more info from reliable sources) before I start typing people left and right.

@Dragheart Luard I don't know where you are in your life right now or what, but I wonder if you'd enjoy studying Depth Psychology? I'm thinking about going back to school to get my PhD in Depth Psychology with a focus on Jungian studies and Archetypes. Just something that keeps coming up in your posts that I wanted to suggest.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

brightflashes said:


> @*Dragheart Luard* I don't know where you are in your life right now or what, but I wonder if you'd enjoy studying Depth Psychology? I'm thinking about going back to school to get my PhD in Depth Psychology with a focus on Jungian studies and Archetypes. Just something that keeps coming up in your posts that I wanted to suggest.


I'm finishing my chemistry undergrad studies at the moment, as I got my BSc and now I'm doing the industrial part of my career that I probably will complete next year. I also studied biochemistry during four years, but I left as it became too focused on hospital exams and I liked more the molecular biology side that wasn't too explored here (I had to learn a bit about brain biochemistry too during fourth year, including the pharmacology part). Thanks for the suggestion, as I can check if I find some books for reading when I'm not busy with college, as this is more like a hobby and a distraction from chemistry (like for when I just don't want to read more about reactions) for me than something that I do for my career.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Brains said:


> This is spot on. Perhaps the most frustrating conceit of many typology forums is that they deal, presumably, with personality, yet have a membership that insists that personality and character does not show. Somehow, the talk still remains about what they are like, in terms of tone and action. But it does not show, if it'd say something that contradicts their self-identification.
> 
> It's true that "you do this" or "you do that this way" is hard to identify with - it doesn't speak to a person's felt experience so it feels more superficial. Despite that, it says a hell of a lot of our _character_, the examination of which is what study of personality is. The biggest thing that makes typology interesting is that it tries to paint that inner experience to some extent. But ultimately, relating to some metaphysical concept especially (ie. holding the Holy Ideas as the primary typing method), or insisting that inner self-identification trumps what can be seen both veer away from the study of personality, and from what typology itself is in the first place.


And yet, you're only seeing an online persona that you think is the person you assume them to be. Unless you know that person on a deep level, you can never truly know their type. Yes, you can't hide everything, but it's disturbing when other people insist they think they know another person who they only know through an online forum better than they know themselves, and then when they resist how people have pegged them in their mind, you're accused of lying to yourself because you have "blind-spots". :dry: I'm sure people's impression of me on here is a lot different from how I actually am in real-life, as it is for many other people. 



Brains said:


> Typology is taking something that is - say, medieval swords - premaking categories/classifications that describe them, and then slotting the objects of study into these.


Yes, because it is a system. That was my point in saying shame is core to 4s to @*Rose for a Heart*, because they are an image/heart types, _according to the system_. These are ultimately categories, which as Riso-Hudson say, are not arbitrary, so it's pertinent to know how the category is defined before you can make any headway. I wouldn't say shame is the only thing for distinguishing that type from another, but saying it isn't specific to the type, or that it's merely "human," misses the point. Unless you know every person in the world, which is impossible, how can you claim something is universally human and shared by all types?


----------



## drmiller100

Tad Cooper said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> So with enneagram stuff I had a good look at all the types and am very sure I'm not 1,2,3,6 or 9 for a variety of reasons (I can explain if it's helpful but wont for now).
> I typed as 4 for a while, because of my general feeling of not fitting in/being odd etc but put that more down to social anxiety overall and I dont have the core motivations of type 4 as far as I can tell (i.e. I relate very much to parts of the description, but my motivations arent focused on my significance or authenticity etc). I also thought possibly a SO 5, but don't have a huge focus on my mental world (I am there a lot, but am also a very physical person - I need to be outside and can't spend ages focused on one thing unless I'm really into it...However, I do have the need to be prepared and don't feel equipped to handle the external world well - over time this went from me hiding/avoiding it to trying to tackle it directly, mostly because I got frustrated I wasn't able to deal with it).
> 
> So this leaves type 7 and 8.
> 
> Type 7 - I do a lot to avoid my issues. I have a lot of fear and anxiety (I actually have social and general anxiety, as well as depression and PTSD stuff etc, so have a lot of unpleasant stuff going on internally) and the higher the levels of anxiety/stress the more I do. An example is when my mind is in a bad place or I feel it going there I have to get up and do things, make myself see people, go to work more and for longer etc just to keep my mind busy. I generally have an extremely active mind and body, they always want to be doing things, but usually not at the same time, so I'll go to work really early, stay for a long time doing stuff, then come home and watch videos and play games and chat online and read stuff. I'm a social introvert and very easily overwhelmed which probably makes my typing as 7 a bit odd....
> 
> I have a big focus on not being excluded or left out from activities as well - fear of missing out, keeping my options open (i.e. my boss asked if I wanted to carry on as a technician or do a phd and I said both...and generally if people ask me questions that make me commit I give an ambiguous answer - I always have a get-out plan for every situation too). I also really want to have a good time generally, but my idea of a good time can be very different from other people's, and I'll try most things at least once out of curiosity!
> 
> Type 8 - So some similar stuff from type 7, but also other bits. Big issues about being controlled. I want freedom and independence and get really stressed when people put pressure on me or hold me in place or make me do stuff. I like being asked rather than told to do things. I am also extremely protective of people close to me.
> 
> I think those are the main things?


all sounds 7. how are you with anger?? When you get angry, are you disappointed in yourself, or does anger energize you to get shit done?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Brains thank you, you have given me a lot to think about. Who you identify with may not be the end-all be-all of who you are.


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## brightflashes

@mistakenforstranger

I'm interested if you could give a short (or long, if you want) analysis on how you perceive fear as being a core with the head types. I'm aware of what the literature says; I'm looking for your particular view on this, if you care to indulge.


----------



## Figure

OK, flipping hats between mod and poster yet again, with additional talking points on typing...

1.) It is usually possible to trigger a person to demonstrate their core type by communicating with them in a way that threatens the worldview that type is heavily invested into. An effective typing question sticks a wedge between someone's real and imagined selves and feel the burn of losing contact with the real self. This takes careful thinking, but is extremely effective. 

An easy way to begin this would be to have someone validate something they believe strongly in, and ask if they believe it actually, truly helps them and why (e.x. for a suspected type 6 - does having your guard up and being as cynical as you are really help you? How?) 

This technique is equally effective in typing others as it would be for yourself. 

2.) One's identity as a given enneatype should be sured up on only the attributes of that type that make it unique from other types. It would be the habit of withholding that makes me know I'm a 5, not high intelligence or an IQ test score. 

3.) When people are undecided between similar types, the difference can usually be explained through trait/habit clusters. Often times undecideds relate to one or two things of different types. This can be:

 a struggle to prioritize self traits they know of themselves
a struggle to prioritize type traits that are essential to the type
overlooking key traits that go along with the cluster, and/or
not noticing something of themselves that really belongs in a cluster (often because enneagram lingo is so codified).

4.) Many people who confidently mistype instinctively pick one or two traits from a cluster and take them to confirm the type, when in fact a whole cluster of another type fits much better. It's harder to guide these people, because their self knowledge is true but_ incomplete_. 

5.) It is generally much more helpful for someone in the long run to come to an understanding of what is true for them and their habits than to get typed correctly and feel comfortable with the number.


----------



## Dangerose

Anyone else experiencing this page/maybe other pages freezing up a lot?
Think it's not just my Internet, Google Maps wasn't a problem
Ended up typing this on Word


Tad Cooper said:


> @The Night's Queen - Hmm so you don't think I could be 7w8 because I'm not very assertive? Or other reasons? What about 7w6?


Well, I wasn't sure, was just trying to give my impression/start a conversation about 7w8, but what you wrote doesn't seem very 8-wing so I'd lean away from it now for sure.


> Yeah, I was wondering if social expectations/teaching would change how each type was in individuals etc....I was quite angry as a teen but got a lot of bad stuff about it and stopped, but then I was apparently a very calm child so maybe it was just hormones....xD


In my opinion…social expectations, values etc of course affects manifestation of type but only to a certain extent, past a certain point it really depends how socially malleable the person is in the first place.


> I'm generally not assertive and follow what people want, but only as long as I really dont mind - if I do mind I wont do it without an amazing reason. I will be insistent about people being safe etc i.e. if I know someone isnt strong or has injuries I refuse to let them carry things etc and will do it myself. I prefer to let people do what they want and for them to let me do what I want though.


First sentence is not 8, which is assertive and generally does not follow what people want…it is 9.
‘as long as I really don’t mind’ and amazing reason still seems much more 9. 9 isn’t a total pushover and will usually push back on being controlled or go against their wishes, if it goes too far.
I’d vaguely say that in my experience 8s tend not to force their help on other people, come from a more self-sufficient place and … yeah … but I think it could go either way, not a type I understand very well.
Don’t forget that 8 is a power type. No matter how ‘live and let live’ 8w9 and such can be it’s still quite concerned with who has the upper hand.
For example the ‘I’ll refuse to let them carry things’, really I think this can be 8 but it would come from a place of control, asserting one’s place, making people your subsidiaries…but that could be my 2 speaking.


> That's very true, Id always imagined female 8s would be very different to male 8s in most cultures because women are supposed to be softer etc. With me, I loath taking charge, but I will if no one else will step up and do it i.e. I'll take over organising work if it means we finish faster so I can go home/do other things xD


8s don’t loath taking charge…that’s like their whole thing). Doesn’t sound 7w8 either, perhaappps 9w8 but…
Stepping up to take charge if no one else will do it is…that’s like the base level of taking charge for all types, if you’re below that that’s a sign of something


> I sometimes piss people off because I find them annoying/pretentious or theyve made me irritated >_> Slightly bad habit, but it's usually in a playful, poking the bear sort of thing....I used to wind people up when I was bored as a teen, which now I know is bad, but at the time I found amusing...*I prefer everyone to get along* because then we can just do our own things *and not be stressed out* (nowadays* I tend to hate serious confrontation because I just have no time or energy for it*, but when I was a teen I would keep going forever and ever until everyone just gave up with the debate, because I wouldnt stop unless someone gave me a good reason as to why I was wrong - if they did *I would accept it and go "Oh, neat!" xD*)


Bolded things that seem 9/9-fixed (I realize the context changes them a little but yes)


Paradigm said:


> @The Night's Queen I suspect you might have a 6w7 fix instead of 7w6.


Thanks, why?
And can you see 6w7 core?


----------



## Darkbloom

Posting just to see the next page, ignore me
edit: Yay, it's a page 

* *




I'm not sure why I thought there's a post I couldn't see


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## Dangerose

Re: female 8s – pretty sure ‘people don’t want me to be assertive --> therefore I’m not assertive’ is the definition of not being assertive and excludes 8 (not 3 though), social training might make a girl less obviously aggressive but an 8 is still an 8 is still an 8


----------



## Paradigm

The Night's Queen said:


> Anyone else experiencing this page/maybe other pages freezing up a lot?
> Think it's not just my Internet, Google Maps wasn't a problem
> [...]
> Thanks, why?
> And can you see 6w7 core?


Yeah, I had a database error earlier.

You don't seem assertive in the traditional sense, though you do seem "power" oriented (2ish), so I suspect you might be misinterpreting your 2 as 7 (both are "positivity" types). The way you describe 7s doesn't grasp the nuances of how 7s are (which is fair, totally, a person can still be a type without understanding it), and actually pointed away from a 7 fix for you due to some misunderstandings. It sounded a lot more like 6-based fear.

Further, you pretty well encapsulate the 6w7 all-over-the-place, whereas 7s, perhaps ironically, write in a more focused or direct way in comparison. I wouldn't say you're a 6w7 core yet - I'm still trying to figure out if 2w3 fits you! - but I definitely see the fix... At least, in my opinion. I'm willing to be wrong


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I am open to others describing anything 6-ish, or 9-ish (or any other type besides 4) in me.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

If assertiveness from a place of self sufficiency is 8, what is 1? And when do 9s take charge?

On my own leadership. In my gaming groups, even when I am not the GM, I am always taking charge. I see the game is going off the rails, I remind people why we are there. The game stops because people are checking rulebooks, I cudgel my memory and provide the answer, or find it more quickly. I've enough GM experience under my belt to do better than most. Sometimes I delegate tasks and take over a role. Like I was designated Initiative Tracker for the GM when our GM had issues keeping combat scenes moving at a good pace. I like quiet leader roles like that.. Anyway, the game went much more smoothly once his ADD wasn't holding everything up. I see something needs doing, I'll do it.

Its one of the areas where I see myself managing other people's time. Its supposed to be an IEI or EIE trait, managing time and emotional atmosphere in tandem.

It's also one of the things I do that makes me wonder if I actually am an introvert in Socionics terms. Of course, such games wipe me the hell out and I collapse after, so...da fuq. Its something. Probably an introvert. But if so, why do I drive myself to my limits and beyond? I'm taking everyone else's burdens onto myself. And heaven forbid if someone compliment me on the things that I do or thank me for it. I'm very compliment-rejecting. I often think that the other person isn't seeing the full picture.


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> Yeah, I had a database error earlier.
> 
> You don't seem assertive in the traditional sense, though you do seem "power" oriented (2ish), so I suspect you might be misinterpreting your 2 as 7 (both are "positivity" types). The way you describe 7s doesn't grasp the nuances of how 7s are (which is fair, totally, a person can still be a type without understanding it), and actually pointed away from a 7 fix for you due to some misunderstandings. It sounded a lot more like 6-based fear.
> 
> Further, you pretty well encapsulate the 6w7 all-over-the-place, whereas 7s, perhaps ironically, write in a more focused or direct way in comparison. I wouldn't say you're a 6w7 core yet - I'm still trying to figure out if 2w3 fits you! - but I definitely see the fix... At least, in my opinion. I'm willing to be wrong


Thank you!
Please, feel free (you or anyone else) to clear up my misunderstandings about 7, I would like to have a clear idea of the types))


----------



## star tripper

While y'all are discussing gut fixes, I gotta ask how one distinguishes an 8 fix from a 1 fix.

I've been more aware of my gut fix in the past few weeks (hence my finally departing from the idea of being a 9 fix) and I find I get really edgy when I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of OR when something shady is going on. I had a meltdown when I found out two of my managers (one married, one in a 10-year relationship to a woman who is clinically depressed) were sleeping together. I HAD to do something about it. I ALWAYS have to do something when I see something I disagree with it and I have zero qualms about expressing my anger over it. I'm energised by anger and feel like I deserve to be angry. I mean, sure, I will withhold my anger if it's irrational, but if it's either deserved or someone is in my way, I'm not afraid to use it and I don't feel bad about it after either.

Basically, I don't suppress anger but I also primarily get angry over things I deem wrong + people getting in my way. For me, it's definitely an ego thing, even the moral stuff. "You think I'm stupid enough to let you guys be fucking morons?"

Also, I'm assertive (which is why I've avoided typing at 5 for ages). Whenever I think my friend deserves better treatment, I say it. I do something about it. Even people I don't like. I didn't have friends in elementary school (I wasn't interested in others), so I wasn't invested in my social environment. That meant I had nothing to lose if I saw behavior I found unacceptable. I wasn't gonna lose a friend or face or anything by saying, "Return his lunch money or I'll knee you in the groin." I'm still not invested enough in my environment to exercise caution in that respect.


----------



## drmiller100

star tripper said:


> Also, I'm assertive (which is why I've avoided typing at 5 for ages). Whenever I think my friend deserves better treatment, I say it. I do something about it. Even people I don't like. I didn't have friends in elementary school (I wasn't interested in others), so I wasn't invested in my social environment. That meant I had nothing to lose if I saw behavior I found unacceptable. I wasn't gonna lose a friend or face or anything by saying, "Return his lunch money or I'll knee you in the groin." I'm still not invested enough in my environment to exercise caution in that respect.


I have my personal views on enneagram. I don't think "fixes" do anything other than cloud things and mislead understanding of enneagram.

That being said, what I quoted of your writing sounds VERY 8. and I believe that many 8's devolve to 5ish behavior when they are emotionally beat up, or depressed, or down.

and 5's, when integrating do 8 type stuff. but the quote to me sounds like core 8.


----------



## navi__x3

star tripper said:


> While y'all are discussing gut fixes, I gotta ask how one distinguishes an 8 fix from a 1 fix.
> 
> I've been more aware of my gut fix in the past few weeks (hence my finally departing from the idea of being a 9 fix) and I find I get really edgy when I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of OR when something shady is going on. I had a meltdown when I found out two of my managers (one married, one in a 10-year relationship to a woman who is clinically depressed) were sleeping together. I HAD to do something about it. I ALWAYS have to do something when I see something I disagree with it and I have zero qualms about expressing my anger over it. I'm energised by anger and feel like I deserve to be angry. I mean, sure, I will withhold my anger if it's irrational, but if it's either deserved or someone is in my way, I'm not afraid to use it and I don't feel bad about it after either.
> 
> Basically, I don't suppress anger but I also primarily get angry over things I deem wrong + people getting in my way. For me, it's definitely an ego thing, even the moral stuff. "You think I'm stupid enough to let you guys be fucking morons?"
> 
> Also, I'm assertive (which is why I've avoided typing at 5 for ages). Whenever I think my friend deserves better treatment, I say it. I do something about it. Even people I don't like. I didn't have friends in elementary school (I wasn't interested in others), so I wasn't invested in my social environment. That meant I had nothing to lose if I saw behavior I found unacceptable. I wasn't gonna lose a friend or face or anything by saying, "Return his lunch money or I'll knee you in the groin." I'm still not invested enough in my environment to exercise caution in that respect.


I'm thinking you're an 8 fix over a 1 fix. 1 would internalize critical thoughts and 8 would be open and assertive with them. At least... that's what I think.


Basically. I came here to admit that I may be a 2w3 and not a 3w2. I think sometimes I have periods of feist-iness--especially after conflict, I can become more self centered. 

But i'm not entirely sure about being a 2 dom. :/ If I am I think my wing is strong. Is that possible?


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Night's Queen said:


> Re: female 8s – pretty sure ‘people don’t want me to be assertive --> therefore I’m not assertive’ is the definition of not being assertive and excludes 8 (not 3 though), social training might make a girl less obviously aggressive but an 8 is still an 8 is still an 8


About taking charge IRL, I've decided to personally ask and negotiate things when other classmates may not be able to leverage stuff properly, as I'm aware that professors usually are more willing to listen to students that go to most classes and also have good GPA, which applies to me. Even if it's for small things like changing work groups, usually I get away with those negotiations when I have enough arguments and only one thing so far couldn't be changed as it was a core part of the class. I also do this when professors ask for uneeded tasks and I mention that things could be done in less steps or that I already checked that I don't need to do that uneeded stuff (ex. like during work a prof wanted to make me carry again all the reagents for a lab and I told that the other prof that used it won't have any experiments that day, so doing the same job twice was pointless). 

I've also noticed when this won't work, because the professor is too stubborn and unwilling to accept different options. So I have to detect when the power difference isn't that big in the first place.


----------



## Dangerose

Ugh typing on this website @navi__x3 anything for 2 besides occasional feistiness and self-absorption?  @Dragheart Luard gut types are really a closed book to me :shocked: so I’ve no idea; what you said doesn’t sound _particularly_ 8 to me (only thing it sounds to me is stereotypically 3 lol because success is involved but obviously :tongue:
Fwiw x6 tritype friend, I think core 6w7, was the number one person I’ve ever known for trying to renegotiate with teachers and professors, mostly because she took school really seriously and put all her energy into that.
I never did haha because a. I always feel like I’m inconveniencing everyone and b. when it came to school I had the energy to do the work and turn it in, sometimes, the mental sparks and such it would take to figure out that I needed some adjustment were never there


----------



## Dragheart Luard

The Night's Queen said:


> @*Dragheart Luard* gut types are really a closed book to me :shocked: so I’ve no idea; what you said doesn’t sound _particularly_ 8 to me (only thing it sounds to me is stereotypically 3 lol because success is involved but obviously :tongue:
> Fwiw x6 tritype friend, I think core 6w7, was the number one person I’ve ever known for trying to renegotiate with teachers and professors, mostly because she took school really seriously and put all her energy into that.
> I never did haha because a. I always feel like I’m inconveniencing everyone and b. when it came to school I had the energy to do the work and turn it in, sometimes, the mental sparks and such it would take to figure out that I needed some adjustment were never there


I think that type 1 too can do this stuff, as they're competency oriented and take action when things go wrong. That's why I'm reconsidering it after thinking that it sounded too rigid and stick in the mud overall. I'm not set in type 8 as I only think so far that some gut type is likely for me after noticing that my anxiety is the result of stress and not the existencial kind.


----------



## navi__x3

The Night's Queen said:


> Ugh typing on this website @navi__x3 anything for 2 besides occasional feistiness and self-absorption?  @Dragheart Luard gut types are really a closed book to me :shocked: so I’ve no idea; what you said doesn’t sound _particularly_ 8 to me (only thing it sounds to me is stereotypically 3 lol because success is involved but obviously :tongue:
> Fwiw x6 tritype friend, I think core 6w7, was the number one person I’ve ever known for trying to renegotiate with teachers and professors, mostly because she took school really seriously and put all her energy into that.
> I never did haha because a. I always feel like I’m inconveniencing everyone and b. when it came to school I had the energy to do the work and turn it in, sometimes, the mental sparks and such it would take to figure out that I needed some adjustment were never there


I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand the question. :blushed:


----------



## Dangerose

Though, I do remember talking to first the teacher and then about everyone in the administrative office on behalf of my 4 friend in high school, there was a terrible teacher at our school who…my 4 friend did not have Internet at home, but the teacher wouldn’t assign the assignments until after school had already ended, not at a regular time either, therefore my friend had no way to do the homework.
Went with her to talk to teacher, teacher just said like ‘that’s not my problem, better figure it out’ (a common response of hers to any requests from students), went into the offices to talk to someone, I was told that there was no way the teacher was doing that because it was against the rules, talked to some more people, basically no one would believe me :frustrating: 
And in general I’ve gotten good at asking people in offices and such emphatically, my rule is to ask at least 3 people, eventually you’ll find someone in the mood to do their job (or to cut corners or whatever it is)
But that’s definitely something I’ve learned, think it’s more of a skill, dealing with bureaucracy
Interested in my gut fix, except also it seems ridiculous to figure out assuming I’m a 2w1, with wing to 1 and line to 8
Usually put 9 just for symmetry’s sake, and because I can be shrinking-violet-ish, have 1w9 rn because…I can imagine a 1w9 version of myself each: There’s a Ned Starkier version of me somewhere out there

Assertiveness-wise I'd say I waver between being extremely non-assertive and being really quite assertive, latter more common with friends and family or in like higher-risk scenarios, first more common with social situations and with a variety of people that I'm not too familiar with and not strangers with, that I have to mantain some sort of relationship with


----------



## Dangerose

navi__x3 said:


> I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand the question. :blushed:


I meant...why are you thinking 2?


----------



## Paradigm

Dragheart Luard said:


> About taking charge IRL, I've decided to personally ask and negotiate things when other classmates may not be able to leverage stuff properly, as I'm aware that professors usually are more willing to listen to students that go to most classes and also have good GPA, which applies to me. Even if it's for small things like changing work groups, usually I get away with those negotiations when I have enough arguments and only one thing so far couldn't be changed as it was a core part of the class.


Being assertive yet tactful in social situations is a learned behavior half the time, I feel. Some people have it naturally, but they're rare. I was a huge pushover until about 16 (except about rules that were rules for no reason), and I'm still learning at 28 when is too much and not enough and how to be nice and all that crap. I have a few friends who are even worse at being assertive; one of them is really obsessive about school/grades and can't be assertive >_<



> I also do this when professors ask for uneeded tasks and I mention that things could be done in less steps or that I already checked that I don't need to do that uneeded stuff (ex. like during work a prof wanted to make me carry again all the reagents for a lab and I told that the other prof that used it won't have any experiments that day, so doing the same job twice was pointless).
> I've also noticed when this won't work, because the professor is too stubborn and unwilling to accept different options. So I have to detect when the power difference isn't that big in the first place.


This sounds like things I do among friends. I don't do it among the more stranger-types (I'm disabled, look funny, and have a speech impediment. It's not worth the effort), but I'll do it among friends a lot. I think it's Te, and an appreciation that my friends value my "Te efforts." My parents don't as much, which probably relates to your "power" dynamic :laughing: My mom does, but my dad may as well just laugh at me for all the amount my suggestions will be taken.

I will note that, to me, all the stuff about leverage and power differences don't register to me in everyday life. But I'm not the... suspicious, super-guarded sort of 6, and I have _very_ little 8 influence in me.


----------



## Dangerose

navi__x3 said:


> I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand the question. :blushed:


I meant...why are you thinking 2?


----------



## brightflashes

I'd like some clarity about my heart fix. I believe it's type 4. Also, the tritype 514 fits me very well. 
@Rose for a Heart asked me some questions on my type me thread to glean information about my heart fix and suggested that I might have a type 3 heart fix. I find that unlikely. That would make me a triple competency tritype, for example. I'm the kind of person who needs some reasoning behind why someone would say that I'm a type X. Could someone here check this out and let me know what your impressions are? It's not a full questionnaire; it's just a reflection on a few topics that Rose asked me to reflect on:

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1072786-enneatype-me-3.html#post36525706


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## Dragheart Luard

Paradigm said:


> Being assertive yet tactful in social situations is a learned behavior half the time, I feel. Some people have it naturally, but they're rare. I was a huge pushover until about 16 (except about rules that were rules for no reason), and I'm still learning at 28 when is too much and not enough and how to be nice and all that crap. I have a few friends who are even worse at being assertive; one of them is really obsessive about school/grades and can't be assertive >_<


I had to learn the tactful way, as I'm too blunt normally and I my vocabulary isn't the best, in the sense of using curse words as it's common in chilean Spanish. I only try to be polite when I know that not doing it may get me in trouble or make the attempt to negotiate backfire greatly xD I have to ask my mom as I'm quite clueless about social norms or I think that they're annoying. Otherwise people complain when I tell things without sugarcoating. INTJ issues FTW



> This sounds like things I do among friends. I don't do it among the more stranger-types (I'm disabled, look funny, and have a speech impediment. It's not worth the effort), but I'll do it among friends a lot. I think it's Te, and an appreciation that my friends value my "Te efforts." My parents don't as much, which probably relates to your "power" dynamic :laughing: My mom does, but my dad may as well just laugh at me for all the amount my suggestions will be taken.
> 
> I will note that, to me, all the stuff about leverage and power differences don't register to me in everyday life. But I'm not the... suspicious, super-guarded sort of 6, and I have _very_ little 8 influence in me.


Oh yeah, the Te part is true as I prefer to do things when I think they will be more efficient, and repeating a task is very inefficient. I admit that I try to find shortcuts while doing most things, as I'm too lazy and adding extra steps sounds like a waste of time. Now about power, here is almost like a survival thing, as this country was a dictatorship, and the authoritarian part is an issue here as most people abuse their power, as this mindset permeated through chilean society, even if it's something like being in charge of students or some other post that's irrelevant on a larger scale. Democracy also has a big dictator like component, so this issue won't be changed soon.


----------



## navi__x3

The Night's Queen said:


> I meant...why are you thinking 2?


Ahh, makes sense. :laughing:

I am an sp/sx variant for sure and I 100% relate to this - http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-f...rvation-twos-according-beatrice-chestnut.html

Other than that... I am currently deciding between accepting a full time promotion or keeping my part time position so I can stay home more with my daughter. I'm leaning towards staying with part time because I don't want to be away from her. I think a 3 would take the promotion (it's for an executive office position) without hesitation but I could be wrong.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

star tripper said:


> I've been more aware of my gut fix in the past few weeks (hence my finally departing from the idea of being a 9 fix) and I find I get really edgy when I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of OR when something shady is going on. I had a meltdown when I found out two of my managers (one married, one in a 10-year relationship to a woman who is clinically depressed) were sleeping together. I HAD to do something about it. I ALWAYS have to do something when I see something I disagree with it and I have zero qualms about expressing my anger over it. I'm energised by anger and feel like I deserve to be angry. I mean, sure, I will withhold my anger if it's irrational, but if it's either deserved or someone is in my way, I'm not afraid to use it and I don't feel bad about it after either.
> 
> Basically, I don't suppress anger but I also primarily get angry over things I deem wrong + people getting in my way. For me, it's definitely an ego thing, even the moral stuff. "You think I'm stupid enough to let you guys be fucking morons?"
> 
> Also, I'm assertive (which is why I've avoided typing at 5 for ages). Whenever I think my friend deserves better treatment, I say it. I do something about it. Even people I don't like. I didn't have friends in elementary school (I wasn't interested in others), so I wasn't invested in my social environment. That meant I had nothing to lose if I saw behavior I found unacceptable. I wasn't gonna lose a friend or face or anything by saying, "Return his lunch money or I'll knee you in the groin." I'm still not invested enough in my environment to exercise caution in that respect.


Hey, that's interesting. I didn't have any friends in elementary school either. I spent most of my time reading and stuff. 
I didn't get bullied after the first time, though I did end up in anger management. See, this older kid tried to bully me, took my book and stuff, so I stood up and told him to give it back or I would make him regret it. He didn't give it back, so I leaped on him and bit him. Nearly bit his ear off.

I can definitely see why they put me in anger management. I mean, what sort of monster does that without being angry? Thing is, I did this from a place of coldness. Just logic and understanding how people's minds work. To me, this was simple logic. If I beat this one and let word get around, the others wouldn't even try. And that's what happened. Its a longer term thing. Why bother making nice with everyone when they are just going to do to you what they do to everyone else, and form up into these little cliques where no one really knows or cares about one another? Of course, no one wants to be friends with the crazy biting kid with a book fetish that "might attack you if you cross him", either.

One of the reasons I identify so much with Ender Wiggin from Ender's Game. At least on this one point, he and I are the same.

So in the end, I led a perfectly satisfactory life as the loner that stands outside the groups and observes. Most of them were stupid. Some are all right. I found the ones that weren't stupid were also mostly the ones I am not "supposed" to like. The rebels and outsiders are refreshingly honest. The gangbangers care about their people, for real. The nerds are carried forward by their passions - and what price, life, when there is no passion? If I wish to be in a group, I can always find a way. And if I don't, I won't.


----------



## drmiller100

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Hey, that's interesting. I didn't have any friends in elementary school either. I spent most of my time reading and stuff.
> I didn't get bullied after the first time, though I did end up in anger management. See, this older kid tried to bully me, took my book and stuff, so I stood up and told him to give it back or I would make him regret it. He didn't give it back, so I leaped on him and bit him. Nearly bit his ear off.
> 
> I can definitely see why they put me in anger management. I mean, what sort of monster does that without being angry? Thing is, I did this from a place of coldness. Just logic and understanding how people's minds work. To me, this was simple logic. If I beat this one and let word get around, the others wouldn't even try. And that's what happened. Its a longer term thing. Why bother making nice with everyone when they are just going to do to you what they do to everyone else, and form up into these little cliques where no one really knows or cares about one another? Of course, no one wants to be friends with the crazy biting kid with a book fetish that "might attack you if you cross him", either.
> 
> One of the reasons I identify so much with Ender Wiggin from Ender's Game. At least on this one point, he and I are the same.
> 
> So in the end, I led a perfectly satisfactory life as the loner that stands outside the groups and observes. Most of them were stupid. Some are all right. I found the ones that weren't stupid were also mostly the ones I am not "supposed" to like. The rebels and outsiders are refreshingly honest. The gangbangers care about their people, for real. The nerds are carried forward by their passions - and what price, life, when there is no passion? If I wish to be in a group, I can always find a way. And if I don't, I won't.


that was all me in school. this SOOOOOOO much describes me. 

later in life I ran into people from highschool. the jocks were very nervous. I didn't realize how much I intimidated them in school. 
the gays, and latinos, and nerds and some of teh quiet mousy girls made a point to say hi and be friendly. A LOT more people liked me than I realized back then.

also, Your signature line screams Sx to me. What stacking do you think you are? just curious.


----------



## Dangerose

navi__x3 said:


> Ahh, makes sense. :laughing:
> 
> I am an sp/sx variant for sure and I 100% relate to this - http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-f...rvation-twos-according-beatrice-chestnut.html
> 
> Other than that... I am currently deciding between accepting a full time promotion or keeping my part time position so I can stay home more with my daughter. I'm leaning towards staying with part time because I don't want to be away from her. I think a 3 would take the promotion (it's for an executive office position) without hesitation but I could be wrong.


Aha)
For the second part, I’d say that’s not really necessarily 2>3…3s don’t necessarily prioritize their work over everything else, healthy 3s especially (but there’s nothing to stop even unhealthy 3s focusing more on being a good mother than a good worker). I’d focus more on…do you belong in the power triad or the attachment triad, compliant or assertive? Are you focused more on presenting a polished, steady image or on relationship dynamics? Are you more worried about losing attention or love, or about losing respect and reputation, letting people down?


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## Dragheart Luard

@The Night's Queen BTW since you mentioned some 3 like stuff about one of my posts, the only fix that I haven't found any decent evidence for doubting even since I started with Enneagram was my heart one, which so far I think is 4w3.


----------



## brightflashes

I'm retracting myself from this thread as someone who is open to being typed. If you would like to comment on my Enneagram type, send a PM or do so on my Enneatype me thread. I respectfully ask that if anyone here would like to type me and is unsure of any motivations for my behavior, to ask directly instead of assuming things about me. I am only posting on this thread to share/receive information or to practice typing others. I would greatly prefer that anyone talk to me about my type through PM than anywhere else as I'm naturally disinclined toward public displays of any kind. Thanks for understanding.


----------



## Stellafera

Dragheart Luard said:


> @Paradigm since you mentioned female 8s, which other things have you noticed about them? I'm curious as I'm biologically female despite not identifying with girly stuff and I actually come across as a dude online. This could be helpful for confirming my own type as well.


One of my sisters self-types as 8 (she's either 8 or 5 IMO) and an ILI, so this might be of special interest to you. Honestly, she doesn't differ much in presentation from my 8 father. She's aware that she doesn't fit the social expectations for women, but her reaction to that is essentially "too bad, if they want to work with me, they've got to deal with me not fulfilling their expectations". 

Both she and my father have almost this need to demonstrate superiority in social situations. Sister's a notorious one-upper; my dad's more subtle, but he almost always projects a certain "of course I know what I'm doing and you should listen to me" vibe.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> One of the reasons I identify so much with Ender Wiggin from Ender's Game.


Hm, ever read _Ender's Shadow_? I didn't think it was as good as _Ender's Game_ + _Speaker for the Dead_, but its characterization of Bean reminds me of what you described without Ender's feely-ness.


----------



## navi__x3

The Night's Queen said:


> Aha)
> For the second part, I’d say that’s not really necessarily 2>3…3s don’t necessarily prioritize their work over everything else, healthy 3s especially (but there’s nothing to stop even unhealthy 3s focusing more on being a good mother than a good worker). I’d focus more on…do you belong in the power triad or the attachment triad, compliant or assertive? Are you focused more on presenting a polished, steady image or on relationship dynamics? Are you more worried about losing attention or love, or about losing respect and reputation, letting people down?


I just settled on two and now I'm confused again  lol

Power or Attachment - Neither? I don't necessarily identify "power" but I'm so SP that I feel like I'd be okay on my own and don't _need_ attachment.

Compliant or Assertive - I don't know. I asked my fiance what he thought and he said both LOL. I think I'm assertive with him but pretty compliant with others unless it's something I really think or believe.

Image or Relationship Dynamics - Polished steady image--only because one of my most prevalent stressors is presenting something i'm not proud of. (IE: I'm in my first year of learning how to cook and I have to make dinner for my in-laws on a regular basis. My life is hell.) I also hate seeing people I know on the days I am not wearing makeup and all that. But at the same time I care about relationship dynamics and will make decisions based on other people sometimes. 

Attention or Love - I don't know. Love probably. I've been known to throw away relationships and not care though. Before my fiance I mean.

Reputation or Letting People Down - Probably my reputation. I like to be good at things. I mean I don't want to let people down but that's not my first thought.

I just want to identify as 2 1/2 I'm so on the fence about every single one of these indicators lmao.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Stellafera said:


> One of my sisters self-types as 8 (she's either 8 or 5 IMO) and an ILI, so this might be of special interest to you. Honestly, she doesn't differ much in presentation from my 8 father. She's aware that she doesn't fit the social expectations for women, but her reaction to that is essentially "too bad, if they want to work with me, they've got to deal with me not fulfilling their expectations".
> 
> Both she and my father have almost this need to demonstrate superiority in social situations. Sister's a notorious one-upper; my dad's more subtle, but he almost always projects a certain "of course I know what I'm doing and you should listen to me" vibe.


The part of being aware of not fitting in, but also not caring is quite relatable. I don't relate to the need to openly demostrate superiority, as most of the time I'm too bored for even trying that stuff. The subtler way sounds more like me, though I admit that I can be a smartass when other people are ignorant or dumb.


----------



## mp2

Can anyone help in figuring out if I'm really a 9 or if I'm a 4? I've been researching both extensively for a few weeks and they both seem equally likely. It almost feels like I alternate between the two where I can identify more with 4 for months/years and then 9 for months/years. I'm not saying that's what I'm doing, just what it feels like has been happening over years.

I think I fit the 479 archetype (though I could be wrong) and 7 seems possible. 

With tests, I remember testing as 4 a few times years ago but I wasn't very interested in Enneagram then and didn't really look much more into it. Now I always test as a 5. I think 5 is still possible. I identify with the core 5 fears pretty strongly and it also seems likely that I'm a 5 that's been moving towards 7 for a while now. 

Or maybe I'm wrong about all of this and am something else entirely. I'm happy to answer any questions and appreciate any advice at all.

*Edit:* I thought I should add too, that I identify with the 5 aspect of inadequacy so much that I think I might be too reluctant to type myself as a 5 because of the thought that I wouldn't be as good as other 5's. Even if I'm not a 5 I think this might be helpful in finding my type, and I've read that it's very common for type 9 males to think they are 5's. Or this could be an indicator of some other type.

It's similar with MBTI, I don't know if this would be helpful or not with finding my Enneagram type, but I'm pretty sure I'm either ENFJ or INTP based on cognitive functions, but I can't figure out if I'm Fe-Ti or Ti-Fe. I've considered ESFJ and ISTP pretty closely, but they seem very unlikely.


----------



## Paradigm

Stellafera said:


> One of my sisters self-types as 8 (she's either 8 or 5 IMO) and an ILI, so this might be of special interest to you. Honestly, she doesn't differ much in presentation from my 8 father. She's aware that she doesn't fit the social expectations for women, but her reaction to that is essentially "too bad, if they want to work with me, they've got to deal with me not fulfilling their expectations".


I mean I am what I am, raised by a 6w5 sp/so and 8w9 so/sp and came out similar to that. I never felt part of society, part of anything - I feel like I grew up out of those things. Expectations? What expectations? People expect me to die, not to participate.

Just no one fall into the trap of thinking feeling or being treated like an outsider is 4,5,8 exclusive. Or even primarily 4,5,8. It's not.



> Both she and my father have almost this need to demonstrate superiority in social situations. Sister's a notorious one-upper; my dad's more subtle, but he almost always projects a certain "of course I know what I'm doing and you should listen to me" vibe.


However, this _is _something I don't do and my 8w9 dad does every day...


----------



## star tripper

drmiller100 said:


> I have my personal views on enneagram. I don't think "fixes" do anything other than cloud things and mislead understanding of enneagram.
> 
> That being said, what I quoted of your writing sounds VERY 8. and I believe that many 8's devolve to 5ish behavior when they are emotionally beat up, or depressed, or down.
> 
> and 5's, when integrating do 8 type stuff. but the quote to me sounds like core 8.


Oh no, tritype is almost totally worthless, but I like the arenas of introspection they can inspire. I do agree people mostly misattribute their core behaviors to fix behaviors. It lets people violate Occam's razor.

Now regarding 8 as a possible core type, I wouldn't dismiss the suggestion. I know I at least come across as an 8 irl. I compulsively resist control. If I wanna do something, nobody in the world can stop me. If I DON'T wanna do something, nobody in the world can make me. I will dodge every attempt to exert power on me and throw it back against the offender. This is why I wasn't well-liked for most of my childhood. When I was in second grade, a sixth grade boy dared me to hit him, so I pulled his balls to the ground and elbowed his face (mind you, I was considered tiny for my age). I didn't feel afraid of him per se; I just needed to show him the ball was in my court and not his so to speak. That was my "checkmate."

However, I AM stuck in my own head most of the time nowadays. I don't regard it as good to be stuck in my head and I feel much healthier when I jump without looking.

Also, 8 descriptions sound really extra. I have been told I'm larger than life even though I'm pretty quiet, but I don't think I'm that extra. Of course, 8 descriptions are exaggerated.



navi__x3 said:


> I'm thinking you're an 8 fix over a 1 fix. 1 would internalize critical thoughts and 8 would be open and assertive with them. At least... that's what I think.
> 
> 
> Basically. I came here to admit that I may be a 2w3 and not a 3w2. I think sometimes I have periods of feist-iness--especially after conflict, I can become more self centered.
> 
> But i'm not entirely sure about being a 2 dom. :/ If I am I think my wing is strong. Is that possible?


That's why I went with 8 in my signature but I was reading that sexual 1s can be openly angry and critical. My critical thoughts are definitely not centered on myself. I'm not trying to be a perfect person. My moral anger is all ego. I can't let that disgusting behavior go on in my presence. That's just insulting. You're making me go against my very nature just so that you can be gross? Bitch, you got another thing comin'.

Essentially, I'm not trying to be perfect. I'm trying to be unapologetically me, and if two committed people are cheating together right in front of me, it would be an affront to me as a person to keep me from doing something to "right" that "wrong."


----------



## star tripper

Shit I didn't see all this Ender's Game shit. That's my shit right there. I have to respond.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Hey, that's interesting. I didn't have any friends in elementary school either. I spent most of my time reading and stuff.
> I didn't get bullied after the first time, though I did end up in anger management. See, this older kid tried to bully me, took my book and stuff, so I stood up and told him to give it back or I would make him regret it. He didn't give it back, so I leaped on him and bit him. Nearly bit his ear off.
> 
> I can definitely see why they put me in anger management. I mean, what sort of monster does that without being angry? Thing is, I did this from a place of coldness. Just logic and understanding how people's minds work. To me, this was simple logic. If I beat this one and let word get around, the others wouldn't even try. And that's what happened. Its a longer term thing. Why bother making nice with everyone when they are just going to do to you what they do to everyone else, and form up into these little cliques where no one really knows or cares about one another? Of course, no one wants to be friends with the crazy biting kid with a book fetish that "might attack you if you cross him", either.
> 
> One of the reasons I identify so much with Ender Wiggin from Ender's Game. At least on this one point, he and I are the same.
> 
> So in the end, I led a perfectly satisfactory life as the loner that stands outside the groups and observes. Most of them were stupid. Some are all right. I found the ones that weren't stupid were also mostly the ones I am not "supposed" to like. The rebels and outsiders are refreshingly honest. The gangbangers care about their people, for real. The nerds are carried forward by their passions - and what price, life, when there is no passion? If I wish to be in a group, I can always find a way. And if I don't, I won't.


That's why I loved EG too. I completely related to meeting force with such a stupid amount of force that nobody would try me again. Finishing them. Endgame. But it wasn't from a place of fear so much as... instinct? It was just the sensible thing to do. Ender definitely felt it harder than I did. I wasn't a monster. I just needed to show people they couldn't control me. Why? I don't know. I just can't let people think it.



Stellafera said:


> One of my sisters self-types as 8 (she's either 8 or 5 IMO) and an ILI, so this might be of special interest to you. Honestly, she doesn't differ much in presentation from my 8 father. She's aware that she doesn't fit the social expectations for women, but her reaction to that is essentially "too bad, if they want to work with me, they've got to deal with me not fulfilling their expectations".
> 
> Both she and my father have almost this need to demonstrate superiority in social situations. Sister's a notorious one-upper; my dad's more subtle, but he almost always projects a certain "of course I know what I'm doing and you should listen to me" vibe.
> 
> Hm, ever read _Ender's Shadow_? I didn't think it was as good as _Ender's Game_ + _Speaker for the Dead_, but its characterization of Bean reminds me of what you described without Ender's feely-ness.


For starters, I relate to the one-upsmanship hardcore. Thought it was an ENTP thing possibly. I do always have to have the upperhand, place people lower on the rung. I love leading though.

On a completely irrelevant note, Ender's Shadow was really good until they started stripping Ender of his accomplishments and giving them to Bean instead. DC did that with Dick Grayson too. Total bullshit. Some people are just that fucking extraordinary. You don't need to spread their awesomeness to others. Fuck Julien Delphiki (or whatever Bean's real name is) and fuck Jason Todd and Tim Drake. *clears throat* But Shadow of the Giant is low-key better than Xenocide and Children of the Mind.

Anyway, I agree with you. I just had to express that opinion.


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## Dragheart Luard

@Paradigm @The Night's Queen @Stellafera I've forgotten to mention something relevant about my childhood, and it is that I always liked to read about topics that weren't taught in depth at school. I mostly read about biology as a kid, as I found it interesting to the point of reading about different kinds of animals for fun. I mostly study stuff in depth if I like it, and so far I've digged biology, chemistry and a bit less about history. I also read about mythology as I thought that it was cool stuff despite not being based on tangible reality nor science. I like physics, but I've never had that deep interest in learning it as much as with bio and chem.

So considering this, I picked my majors based on what I liked and not what would give me social status or profit. My grades fluctuated a lot depending if I liked a class or not, and my worst grades usually were in the classes that I couldn't grasp well (organic chemistry and some maths, which I almost failed lol), or plainly were too detailed and bored me to death (all the biology classes needed for the medicine part of biochemistry. Memorizing all the names was hell, as I didn't learn the concepts nor grasped the mechanisms of those processes.)

When this became unbearable I decided to change majors after losing all interest in finishing biochemistry. Luckily, many classes were the same so I didn't need to retake most of them, and I confirmed that I'm mostly interested in inorganic and physical chemistry. I also saw this as a chance to learn chemistry better, as I could understand some concepts that I didn't have enough time to read about on my spare time. So since I was a kid, I hoarded information as I wanted to understand ideas well. I've assumed this was just an INTJ thing, but I wonder if it legit can tell something Enneagram wise.


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## Dangerose

@hornpipe2 thread closed before I could send my response

Ok, now that my post is highlighted as the first page of a thread I'm not quite on board with how I phrased this. Agree with what I meant but I think 'at face value' was a poor word choice.



> Taking what people say about themselves at face value is not necessarily the best way to understand them or to help them understand themselves/type themselves.


I do think it's a problem when people don't take what people say 'at face value' in the sense that they assume they are being completely being dishonest e.g. someone identifies at 4 and people presume that these people just want to identify with a high-status type or something. I think usually people are talking about themselves as honestly as they can, are identifying with types for reasons that make sense to them etc.

That is not what I was trying to refer to in the post, but the notion that someone cannot offer interpretation that does not square with someone's self-image. 

I like this forum because I feel like people are serious and respectful enough to call the shots as they see them, to tell me their real opinions, to point out contradictions or areas where I might have gotten away from myself, have a poor self-perception, or spot patterns I haven't noticed. I value honest, thoughtful input a lot more than people spitting what I want to hear right back in my face. That helps no one.

The MBTI forum you have to dig for hours to find valuable conversations and insights. The Enneagram forum isn't great in areas but at least people are challenging themselves and each other. 

Lots of people see Enneagram as a tool for self-improvement and particularly challenging the parts of oneself that are blindspots, difficult to look at, or buried under smoke and mirrors. The idea is that most people have these, it's not a judgement call. Ideally typing can break through to the real core of what makes people tick. Hard to do when you're pussy-footing around the surface, relying soley on another's self-perception.

In this case a member specifically asked for typing help and then shot down a theory, ascribing mean-spirited motivations. This was what my post was in reference to.


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## Dangerose

frustrated that now the thread is sitting there like the law of the land and I can't respond/clarify/defend myself :frustrating:


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## Paradigm

@The Night's Queen
Honestly, it's not worth it. It was an attack on multiple levels, personal and regional. It should've been locked, and shouldn't be brought up again here. I understand your frustration but let the mods handle it. IMO there should've been a "separation agreement" or whatever it's called by now.


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## Dangerose

Dragheart Luard said:


> @Paradigm @The Night's Queen @Stellafera I've forgotten to mention something relevant about my childhood, and it is that I always liked to read about topics that weren't taught in depth at school. I mostly read about biology as a kid, as I found it interesting to the point of reading about different kinds of animals for fun. I mostly study stuff in depth if I like it, and so far I've digged biology, chemistry and a bit less about history. I also read about mythology as I thought that it was cool stuff despite not being based on tangible reality nor science. I like physics, but I've never had that deep interest in learning it as much as with bio and chem.
> 
> So considering this, I picked my majors based on what I liked and not what would give me social status or profit. My grades fluctuated a lot depending if I liked a class or not, and my worst grades usually were in the classes that I couldn't grasp well (organic chemistry and some maths, which I almost failed lol), or plainly were too detailed and bored me to death (all the biology classes needed for the medicine part of biochemistry. Memorizing all the names was hell, as I didn't learn the concepts nor grasped the mechanisms of those processes.)
> 
> When this became unbearable I decided to change majors after losing all interest in finishing biochemistry. Luckily, many classes were the same so I didn't need to retake most of them, and I confirmed that I'm mostly interested in inorganic and physical chemistry. I also saw this as a chance to learn chemistry better, as I could understand some concepts that I didn't have enough time to read about on my spare time. So since I was a kid, I hoarded information as I wanted to understand ideas well. I've assumed this was just an INTJ thing, but I wonder if it legit can tell something Enneagram wise.


I had similar experiences in school! (well...your version sounds a lot smarter than my version, and has a happier ending lol, but I remember my mother commenting how strange it was that my brother and I's reaction to the school year being over was 'now we have time to learn things!' :words: which says fun things about the school system)

I honestly have no clue Enneagram-wise. Guess it could seem head type-ish because..learning...but I think it could be almost anything...

Do you have any idea what makes you interested in one topic vs another? I mean, is there some quality that really draws you to a field of study? What is your overall goal in academics? Getting a fulfilling job (what makes a job fulfilling?), satisfying curiosity, etc


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## Dragheart Luard

The Night's Queen said:


> I had similar experiences in school! (well...your version sounds a lot smarter than my version, and has a happier ending lol, but I remember my mother commenting how strange it was that my brother and I's reaction to the school year being over was 'now we have time to learn things!' :words: which says fun things about the school system)
> 
> I honestly have no clue Enneagram-wise. Guess it could seem head type-ish because..learning...but I think it could be almost anything...
> 
> Do you have any idea what makes you interested in one topic vs another? I mean, is there some quality that really draws you to a field of study? What is your overall goal in academics? Getting a fulfilling job (what makes a job fulfilling?), satisfying curiosity, etc


Oh yeah, the school system is awful here, so without the extra info that I learnt I would have a harder time with college as the level was really low. I agree that it could be anything, so that's why I've shrugged that off as an INTJ thing.

I think I get drawn to stuff that lets me to understand how some systems work and what underlying rules could be found, though in biology there are lots of exceptions to the basic principles, unlike in chemistry. Now about field of study, my interest needs to be strong enough for pursuing it as a career, otherwise it's easier and cheaper to keep it as a hobby. That's also why I ended reading about socionics and enneagram, as it lets me understand people better considering that my own sociotype is quite bad at doing this without a clear framework.

For career I'm interested in researching topics that aren't that well explored, specially see methods for simulating systems as that can cut down costs for empirical research if the simulations are accurate enough. I worked a bit with this for my thesis, as it was about checking molecules that could be used for simplying actual meds using for Parkinson. I'm also quite clumsy with empirical methods, while simulations don't have that problem as I've learnt a bit of informatics for fun (like basic Linux, I almost ruined a laptop once by installing it as the wifi never worked). Sadly, research isn't properly funded here so I have to leave this country if I wanted to have a real chance to have a good job. I'm also taking classes about industry, but that's more as an alternative option in case research isn't a viable job.

A good job should pay well enough for living decently, as I don't care about luxury. It also should let me to have some freedom to choose something I want as a project, otherwise I will feel restrained and not happy in the long run. It also should have enough free time for not getting burnt out, which is another reason why biochemistry was an unpleasant field as many experiments have to be done during weekends or your samples may die. Curiosity is relevant for me, as that drives me to read more and to spend more time focused on a task, otherwise I zone out and I prefer to do something less annoying.

That's so far what I know that motivates me.


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## brightflashes

@Dragheart Luard - Your specialty fascinates me. It's so nice to see people going into that field with an attitude like yours.


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## Dragheart Luard

brightflashes said:


> @*Dragheart Luard* - Your specialty fascinates me. It's so nice to see people going into that field with an attitude like yours.


I forgot to mention that this also could lower the prices of meds in the long run, as industries would invest less money if their basic properties could be tested with a simulation and they could avoid the ones that are less effective. Then less amount of dangerous compounds would be used during previous testing, which pollute the environment when you make the meds and it can avoid to research drugs that are toxic if you can calculate this beforehand. So with the proper methods and enough computing power those things could be achieved sooner or later.


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## Animal

@The Night's Queen
I see IEE for you also 

EIE is not, in truth, the over-expressive "feeling-splatter" stereotype that some of the forums have made it out to be. Fe ego is about being attuned to an emotional atmosphere and the impression given. EIE-Fe, in particular, is known to have almost.. a veil up, showing the world a perfect wall of emotional impact due to being over-attuned to atmosphere and expectations. Fe is very attuned to this; they can't shut it off.

EIE-Ni will be more likely to carry on about intuitive impressions, but still would present tightly as though through a veil. Fe egos are always aware of the impression they are giving. ESE's are more loose because their creative Si makes for an atmosphere of 'comfort' and the Ne HA gives them a "let's play!" type of vibe, but the EIE has Se HA, which makes them want to appear strong, fit, looking solid and good, and they have the Ni creative, which makes them very aware of how things will turn out over time. Ni is about cause and effect, so when Ni creative is filtered through a Fe ego, you have tremendous awareness of how each statement will be received.

This is not to say that EIE's are always pleasant. They might WANT to cause disturbance or disruption. They will always think 10 steps ahead about how their statements will be received; but this is not to presume they intend for them to be pleasant.


You are far too free, open, giggly. Your creative function Fi really shows: you connect and click with people at will, being all chummy with them, then do that again with the next people. This is not to take anything away from the authenticity of your true friendships or connections; but just to point out that you are able to play with 'relating' and relations, and you are very comfortable in this area. The Ne ego shows in how you come up with different sub-threads to illustrate your points all the time. Rather than over-focus on your points the way Betas do, you go off on millions of tangents and sub-tangents, throwing out many ideas to see what sticks.

I also have seen Si seeking in your collages and tumblr, which give a sense that you want some grounded comfort, as though you are a wanderer dreaming of a beautiful home.

I've noticed, with Ne-Si types, an axis: exploration vs. foundation. There may be a wanderlust, a need to travel far, but there is also a sense they are seeking their 'true home.' Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense this vibe in the type of pictures you choose.

Ti-polR shows in, simply put, the lack of focus on dissecting one point or sticking to one idea of what a type means, in favor of throwing out many references and trying out many different angles. You do love to analyze, and write very long posts digging into a point, but you might dig into it from a completely different angle a few days later. This makes you explicitly creative and adventurous of mind.


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## goldthysanura

I wonder if I'm actually more of a social 4 than a 9. I read Beatrice Chestnut's description and identify with the self-sabotage, focus on comparing oneself to others, and looking gentle in public while turning negative emotions inward. I definitely have struggled a lot with feelings of not belonging to groups, and of being worse than other people. But I don't think the other 4 subtypes fit me very well, mostly just the so-first one.


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## Rose for a Heart

@brightflashes how dare you publicly accuse me of underhandedly or covertly "trying to manipulate you" and some other crap that I have never even done? This is my public post to clear up that I have not really even spoken to you "behind the scenes" and have no idea what covert shit you are accusing me of. I am sorry I was blunt about what I thought but I sincerely didn't mean any harm, and I was going to apologize but damn - you turn this into some mean accusation about something I haven't even done. 

I don't care if I get infractions for this, you were so far beyond the line. And I am not going to say anything else on this.


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## brightflashes

@Animal

You are so good at explaining typology. I wonder, is there a book recommendation or source that you believe is better than others when it comes to discerning other people's types?


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## Maybe

Closed for review. Again.
---------------
Opening, fyi when mod closes a thread (the only people that can close one) it's a call to stop the discussion. Otherwise it's seen as Disregarding a moderators's decision. 




> 12. Moderating policy
> Threads and/or posts may be edited or removed, based on the decision of the moderator. Forum staff are always expected to use discretion in accordance with the forum rules as stated.
> 
> 
> 13. Complaining About Staff Decisions
> Public complaints about staff decisions are disruptive to the forum and can derail active threads. Talking to staff through the approved channels enables us to deal with problems directly, with minimal issues.
> 
> To provide more channels through which members can address concerns about moderation decisions or forum policy, we have implemented two complaint forums, one public and one private. For the public complaint forum, posts will not become visible to the membership until they have been reviewed and approved by staff. (Note: Banned members will be able to access this public complaint forum.) The private complaint forum works normally, but you can see only the threads that you have created, so that any issues you raise will remain private between you and staff.
> 
> Public questioning or complaints about mod decisions occurring outside of these two complaint forums or PMs will lead to disciplinary action.


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## Rose for a Heart

goldthysanura said:


> I wonder if I'm actually more of a social 4 than a 9. I read Beatrice Chestnut's description and identify with the self-sabotage, focus on comparing oneself to others, and looking gentle in public while turning negative emotions inward. I definitely have struggled a lot with feelings of not belonging to groups, and of being worse than other people. But I don't think the other 4 subtypes fit me very well, mostly just the so-first one.


Why have you been considering 4?


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## goldthysanura

Rose for a Heart said:


> Why have you been considering 4?


I've been pretty sure since I started learning about the Enneagram that I have a 4 fix, but hadn't found a 4 description that spoke to me that much until finding Beatrice Chestnut's social 4 description, which can be found here: http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...-description-according-beatrice-chestnut.html

One part of the description that I felt really fit me is the following:

"The central issue of the social four, however, is not just suffering- it's inferiority. For this subtype, there is a need for self-abasement and self-recrimination, for turning against oneself, for self-weakening. The social four's envy is express through a passion for comparing oneself with others and winding up in the lowest position. To others, the extremity of their mindset and insistence that “there's something wrong with me” can be surprising. They have a poor self-image that they themselves perpetuate. They also engage in self-sabotage a lot: they regularly underestimate themselves and always feel “less than” in comparison to others. 

As Naranjo indicates, the social four may evoke a response in others that makes them want to ask, “What's wrong with you that you think there's something wrong with you?”A person with this subtype may be competent, attractive, and intelligent, and yet still tend to focus on and identify strongly with suffering and a sense of deficiency."

That describes the way I acted during my teenage years, and even now, self-sabotage and intense self-criticism is something I still tend to do and have to work not to. I'm pretty much always comparing myself to other people and finding that I come up short; I feel this intense lack of something that I see in them, and exactly what it is depends on who I'm comparing myself to. When I was younger I constantly felt a need to be reassured by other people that I wasn't fatally flawed, that I was doing OK, not messing up, worthy of love, etc. This stuff dominated my life for many years, and caused the ending of a lot of friendships and relationships, and gave me a lot of pain.

But now, as I'm getting older I'm trying to move away from this. I recently went through some stuff that made me realize how unfairly I treat myself in comparison to how I treat others, and how critical I am of myself and not so much of other people. I've really been taking a look at all of the negative habits that Ms. Chestnut details in her Social 4 description. 

I don't know to what extent these habits are who I am deep down. When I reflect on the Enneagram, I think about type 9, and how that type seems to be like who I am on a fundamental level, a level that gets down to the essence of who I am. But on the outside of that essence, I have all these things getting in the way of it. Things like intense shame, guilt, self-consciousness. It's almost like in a map of myself, if I were like the Earth, then the type 4 would be the crust and the mantle, but the type 9 would be the core. I've always felt ashamed quite easily and there were times in my life where shame caused me very intense pain...but it might not be who I really am, if that makes sense? Just a painful covering that prevents me from feeling good about myself and living my life to the fullest.

How do you think one knows if one has 4 as their main type?


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## Rose for a Heart

goldthysanura said:


> How do you think one knows if one has 4 as their main type?


How do you relate to these:
[4]
Basic fear: of being without identity, personal significance
Basic desire: to find and express identity and personal significance

[9]
Basic fear: of loss and separation
Basic desire: to have peace of mind, wholeness


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## brightflashes

goldthysanura said:


> How do you think one knows if one has 4 as their main type?


While this might not be as valuable as a response from someone who actually is a 4, I think there are several clues one can look for to confirm their type.

First, look at how you act when you are stressed out. A type 4 will take on a bit of type 2 when they are stressed.
Second, look at how you act when you are trying to go beyond just your core. A type 4 will take on a bit of type 1 when they are attempting to pull strengths from their integration point.

As a 5, my disintegration point is 7. When I'm terribly stressed out, my clarity of thought will start to be elusive, I'll think in circles, I'll feel scatterbrained, I'll think in more irrational ways, etc...
My integration point is 8, but I haven't really integrated the way that one might imagine. As I integrate, I find that I become a bit tyrannical and anger driven. This is because it's easier to take on the less healthy qualities of a type that isn't my own than it is to integrate and use type 8 strengths as a supplement to my own (which would look more like engaging in the world, challenging the status quo, etc...) - and please note that this is a very very watered down way of describing this which may not be perfectly worded.

So, back to you. (If you are a 4). Your disintegration point is 2. Type 2s are ingenious at detecting what other people need and responding to those needs. As a type 4, under stress, one might attempt to please others to make up for a perceived deficiency. Going beyond the core self, you might look like a person who is more critical, rules-bound, and perfectionistic (type 1). 

You can compare and contrast the integration/disintegration tendencies between a 9 and a 4 to see which pattern of behavior fits you better. While other members might be able to point you to other good resources, I have found that this thread is the best reading on the Enneagram forum for discerning this: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...piritual-dimensions-sandra-maitri.html#/enter

- - - - - - - - - - 

The second way I would suggest to see which one is yours is more vague and based on personal anecdote. So, this is terribly subjective and might not even speak to you. In the off chance that it does, though, I don't want to leave it out. For me, I have found that I was initially most "turned off" by my type. Type 5s sounded so boring, uninteresting, and lacking in basic sensitivities and social understandings. As someone interested in psychology and someone who would define myself as sensitive (type 5s are actually described as being very sensitive by many authors, just not as much emotionally so), this type sounded so unlike me when I was much younger (this would be ages 13-15 or so). 

So, I'd wonder if asking yourself whether or not your initial response to reading about type 4 vs type 9 held with it any certain feelings, aversions, or attractions and go from there. Again, this might be absolute bull, but I have not only seen it in myself, but I have seen it in a few others as well. Enough to mention it.

I wish you luck on your journey.


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## goldthysanura

Rose for a Heart said:


> How do you relate to these:
> [4]
> Basic fear: of being without identity, personal significance
> Basic desire: to find and express identity and personal significance
> 
> [9]
> Basic fear: of loss and separation
> Basic desire: to have peace of mind, wholeness


I'd say that the thing I want most is to feel alive, fully living without compromising who I am too much...to feel seen and approved of for who I am, but to be at the same time in harmony with the world and with people around me. I guess that's kind of a combination of both basic desires. 

I do want to have personal significance. But it's not something I move toward--in fact, it's something I shy away from much of the time. It's like deep down I want recognition badly. But when I actually receive it it makes me uncomfortable, and I end up being a very modest person most of the time, assuming that any significance I may achieve is hard-won, and not something to be expected very often; a more realistic desire, it seems, is to be satisfied with myself. When I am, then maybe I might move on to getting recognition from other people. I do deserve it after all, but it won't just appear out of nowhere, it will be the result of work and self-reflection.

I guess I want to have an identity. I don't know though. I'm kind of strange, definitely have a bit of an unusual persona, but it's not really intentional. It happens in spite of myself; even when I try to fit in I can't help but stick out at least a little bit. I feel best when I'm honest and genuine, and it's hard for me not to be. Whatever identity I have is the result of that, but I've never tried that hard to create an identity for myself, aside from making art...you could say that I enjoy being honest and quirky, but I'm not that afraid of losing who I am. and in fact, I've coped with depression and stress in the past by trying as hard as I could to lose my identity completely and basically become like a ghost. However, I know that I'm not at all happy when I do this. You can't be happy when you have no identity.

The thing I'm most afraid of is probably that I'm not good enough. That there's something in me that is incapable of doing what I want to do, that's not strong enough, not smart enough, not whatever enough. And that because of that, I will never really be able to love other people, or be loved, or live a good life. That perhaps fits more with #9, because the end result of this fear is that I will be cut off from all of things that give life meaning and that would give me purpose and wholeness. But also partly #4 because if I'm not good enough, that means I don't have positive significance or an identity I can feel proud of.

Wholeness, I think is something I want a lot...for whatever reason I feel fragmented, like everything about me is fragmented, my past, my emotions, and thoughts. Sometimes I feel like I cut things off before they have the chance to come together and synthesize. When I want a friendship to heal, or I want someone to like me, it's because I want to feel in harmony with them, because if I don't, I'll feel even more fragmented and that makes me anxious. But I don't wake up every day telling myself I want to feel peaceful and whole, it's more of an underlying trend in my life.


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## Rose for a Heart

goldthysanura said:


> I'd say that the thing I want most is to feel alive, fully living without compromising who I am too much...to feel seen and approved of for who I am, but to be at the same time in harmony with the world and with people around me. I guess that's kind of a combination of both basic desires.
> 
> I do want to have personal significance. But it's not something I move toward--in fact, it's something I shy away from much of the time. It's like deep down I want recognition badly. But when I actually receive it it makes me uncomfortable, and I end up being a very modest person most of the time, assuming that any significance I may achieve is hard-won, and not something to be expected very often; a more realistic desire, it seems, is to be satisfied with myself. When I am, then maybe I might move on to getting recognition from other people. I do deserve it after all, but it won't just appear out of nowhere, it will be the result of work and self-reflection.


4 is not about recognition; that's type 3. 4s achieve "significance" by expressing their unique and authentic identity. That is, what makes their identity unique is also what makes it significant. This is an image type after all, and this is where the core of a 4 lies. This is also where their quest for and expression of authenticity (and inauthenticity) comes from. They can express something totally universal in an original way, spinning beauty into it, believing they are the only ones who see it that way. But being cut off from the origin, they do not realize others feel exactly the same as them. 



> *I guess I want to have an identity.* I don't know though. I'm kind of strange, definitely have a bit of an unusual persona, but it's not really intentional. It happens in spite of myself; even when I try to fit in I can't help but stick out at least a little bit. I feel best when I'm honest and genuine, and it's hard for me not to be. *Whatever identity I have is the result of that, but I've never tried that hard to create an identity for myself,* aside from making art...*you could say that I enjoy being honest and quirky, but I'm not that afraid of losing who I am. and in fact, I've coped with depression and stress in the past by trying as hard as I could to lose my identity completely and basically become like a ghost. *However, I know that I'm not at all happy when I do this. You can't be happy when you have no identity.


Bolded sounds 9-ish. Underlined, I thought sounded 4. You do have 4 in you, but I am seeing more 9 than 4. 

A 4's identity is automatic, they do not so much seek and spend time in limbo - that's scary to a 4. Remember that their basic fear is to not have an identity. What I underlined demonstrates this, you identify as someone who is strange, you do not seek to create it. You just _are_. There's more of this throughout your posts. 



> The thing I'm most afraid of is probably that I'm not good enough. That there's something in me that is incapable of doing what I want to do, that's not strong enough, not smart enough, not whatever enough. And that because of that, I will never really be able to love other people, or be loved, or live a good life. That perhaps fits more with #9, because the end result of this fear is that I will be cut off from all of things that give life meaning and that would give me purpose and wholeness. But also partly #4 because if I'm not good enough, that means I don't have positive significance or an identity I can feel proud of.


I would re-think the whole identity and significance part of 4, because it seems like you misinterpreted it. 



> Wholeness, I think is something I want a lot...for whatever reason I feel fragmented, like everything about me is fragmented, my past, my emotions, and thoughts. Sometimes I feel like I cut things off before they have the chance to come together and synthesize. When I want a friendship to heal, or I want someone to like me, it's because I want to feel in harmony with them, because if I don't, I'll feel even more fragmented and that makes me anxious. But I don't wake up every day telling myself I want to feel peaceful and whole, it's more of an underlying trend in my life.


So you, yourself are leaning towards 9 than 4 for you?


----------



## goldthysanura

brightflashes said:


> - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> The second way I would suggest to see which one is yours is more vague and based on personal anecdote. So, this is terribly subjective and might not even speak to you. In the off chance that it does, though, I don't want to leave it out. For me, I have found that I was initially most "turned off" by my type. Type 5s sounded so boring, uninteresting, and lacking in basic sensitivities and social understandings. As someone interested in psychology and someone who would define myself as sensitive (type 5s are actually described as being very sensitive by many authors, just not as much emotionally so), this type sounded so unlike me when I was much younger (this would be ages 13-15 or so).
> 
> So, I'd wonder if asking yourself whether or not your initial response to reading about type 4 vs type 9 held with it any certain feelings, aversions, or attractions and go from there. Again, this might be absolute bull, but I have not only seen it in myself, but I have seen it in a few others as well. Enough to mention it.
> 
> I wish you luck on your journey.


Thanks for your response  

When I first started exploring type 9, it felt like I was looking down a deep well into something I could barely see on the other side. Problems I deal with like internal resistance, stubbornness, inertia and falling asleep all came into focus; these are all problems that are central to my life but which I often pretend aren't there or aren't important. I would watch videos with people talking about being 9s and identify with them a lot. It made me feel better about myself because I feel like my whole life I've been told to want things I don't want that much, like material success or achievements, but there are things I want that are involved in the motivations of 9s. It was a relief to realize that I don't have to want the same things that other people want. At the same time, part of being a 9 is that you probably don't let yourself fully own what it is you want, and so, reflecting more I began to realize that part of me *does* want material success and achievements. That's what I mean about looking down a deep well, because it was like going through one part of myself, to another part of myself, until finally the place I ended up was like a different-but-same version of where I started out. More than feeling uneasy though, I felt validated in who I am--like it finally was OK to acknowledge myself.

When I first read about type 4, I felt like I was reading a description of something I had projected into the world for a long time, and could see how other people would think that description fit me. And I do struggle a lot with shame and self-image. But I guess, like I said earlier, type 4 issues don't seem as fundamental to who I am, so it didn't lead to as much self-discovery. it's just funny how that specific So 4 description fits me so much better than other 4 descriptions out there.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Rose for a Heart said:


> A 4's identity is automatic, they do not so much seek and spend time in limbo - that's scary to a 4. Remember that their basic fear is to not have an identity.


I had a question. How do other types experience their identity? How is it different from or similar to a 4's fixation on identity?


----------



## goldthysanura

Rose for a Heart said:


> 4 is not about recognition; that's type 3. 4s achieve "significance" by expressing their unique and authentic identity. That is, what makes their identity unique is also what makes it significant. This is an image type after all, and this is where the core of a 4 lies. This is also where their quest for and expression of authenticity (and inauthenticity) comes from. They can express something totally universal in an original way, spinning beauty into it, believing they are the only ones who see it that way. But being cut off from the origin, they do not realize others feel exactly the same as them.
> 
> 
> 
> Bolded sounds 9-ish. Underlined, I thought sounded 4. You do have 4 in you, but I am seeing more 9 than 4.
> 
> A 4's identity is automatic, they do not so much seek and spend time in limbo - that's scary to a 4. Remember that their basic fear is to not have an identity. What I underlined demonstrates this, you identify as someone who is strange, you do not seek to create it. You just _are_. There's more of this throughout your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I would re-think the whole identity and significance part of 4, because it seems like you misinterpreted it.
> 
> 
> 
> So you, yourself are leaning towards 9 than 4 for you?


OK I see, are you saying that though the 4 wants to have an identity and significance, it's not based on being competent or strong or something, more on being unique? the 4 would already know they're unique from the start but needs to show the uniqueness to the world so that it's validated? But the uniqueness also comes with pain because the 4 doesn't realize that other people are going through the same things they go through? 

I definitely want to be myself and I like to be unusual but it's true that I do spend a lot of time "in limbo" just learning about things, trying to make sense of the world and myself, trying to understand, but not actually living out my identity? If that makes sense. Like if I make art or write something it doesn't always feel like I'm expressing myself more like I'm trying to tap into something I see or trying to understand things better or articulate a specific feeling.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

goldthysanura said:


> OK I see, are you saying that though the 4 wants to have an identity and significance, it's not based on being competent or strong or something, more on being unique? the 4 would already know they're unique from the start but needs to show the uniqueness to the world so that it's validated? But the uniqueness also comes with pain because the 4 doesn't realize that other people are going through the same things they go through?


Yes. And the "uniqueness" comes from the fact that they are human; wanting to express it or wear it as their image however - that's the core issue with the type. If you already believe you are unique, you will disown anything that is common and ultimately sabotage your own desire to be understood. 



> I definitely want to be myself and I like to be unusual but it's true that I do spend a lot of time "in limbo" just learning about things, trying to make sense of the world and myself, trying to understand, but not actually living out my identity? If that makes sense. Like if I make art or write something it doesn't always feel like I'm expressing myself more like I'm trying to tap into something I see or trying to understand things better or articulate a specific feeling.


Yes, this doesn't sound like 4.


----------



## brightflashes

The competency arena could come from either a wing (9w1, 4w3, 4w5) or from a "fix" in a competency type (1, 3, 5). Fixes gets into a different theory of Enneagram, though, called tritype. This theory is that everyone has a fix in one of the three heart, head, and gut types. Some people accept this theory while others reject it as it's not part of the original theory outlined in the 50s - 70s from the founders/synthesizers of Enneagram theory. I suppose it could also point to integration, too, as type 4s integrate to 1 and type 9s integrate to 3. 

Just throwing out some ideas based on what you have been saying. It doesn't necessarily indicate type, but different people have different methods of figuring out their type and want to give you as much info as possible. Some people even prefer to figure out their instinctual stacking before attempting to figure out their type because, like you pointed out in the original post that started this analysis, they will find that the instinctual modifier on the core type is a valuable instrument in learning one's core type.


----------



## goldthysanura

brightflashes said:


> The competency arena could come from either a wing (9w1, 4w3, 4w5) or from a "fix" in a competency type (1, 3, 5). Fixes gets into a different theory of Enneagram, though, called tritype. This theory is that everyone has a fix in one of the three heart, head, and gut types. Some people accept this theory while others reject it as it's not part of the original theory outlined in the 50s - 70s from the founders/synthesizers of Enneagram theory. I suppose it could also point to integration, too, as type 4s integrate to 1 and type 9s integrate to 3.
> 
> Just throwing out some ideas based on what you have been saying. It doesn't necessarily indicate type, but different people have different methods of figuring out their type and want to give you as much info as possible. Some people even prefer to figure out their instinctual stacking before attempting to figure out their type because, like you pointed out in the original post that started this analysis, they will find that the instinctual modifier on the core type is a valuable instrument in learning one's core type.


yeah, the tritype idea makes sense to me. you know I think everyone has all the Enneatypes in them, just in different proportions. For example, I am not much like an 8 at all but somewhere in me there's a desire for power and to protect other people, everyone must have at least a little of that desire. All of the Enneagram fears and motivations are things that I think everyone can identify with to some extent...otherwise it wouldn't be such a process to try to figure out what our main types are.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

lately ive been considering enfj 2w3...
nevermind, it was just my period.


----------



## Stellafera

Paradigm said:


> I mean I am what I am, raised by a 6w5 sp/so and 8w9 so/sp and came out similar to that. I never felt part of society, part of anything - I feel like I grew up out of those things. Expectations? What expectations? People expect me to die, not to participate.
> 
> Just no one fall into the trap of thinking feeling or being treated like an outsider is 4,5,8 exclusive. Or even primarily 4,5,8. It's not.


Bit late on the response here, but I completely agree. I meant my comment more as a way of saying that female 8s do not _necessarily_ have to look "different" from male 8s.


----------



## Darkbloom

The Night's Queen said:


> @goldthysanura you sound more 9 than 4 to me but I think definitely with a 4 fix, I'd say something like 9w1 4w3 XwX from what I've read.
> 
> @navi__x3 basically you give me more of a 2 vibe but the things you say sound more 3 than 2, but haven't seen anything that's like "SHE CAN'T BE ANYTHING BUT 3"
> 
> 279 seems like a fitting tritype for you though? but that's a terrible way to type


I feel the exact same way @navi__x3


----------



## Immolate

Dragheart Luard said:


> I also have times where I feel like I'm trash, and that my only saving grace is my intelligence, which was a thing that correlates to all the bullying that I dealt with at school.


Do you identify most strongly with your intelligence, and by intelligence do you mean academic success? Do you feel any particular way when your intelligence is put under scrutiny?


----------



## navi__x3

The Night's Queen said:


> @goldthysanura you sound more 9 than 4 to me but I think definitely with a 4 fix, I'd say something like 9w1 4w3 XwX from what I've read.
> 
> @navi__x3 basically you give me more of a 2 vibe but the things you say sound more 3 than 2, but haven't seen anything that's like "SHE CAN'T BE ANYTHING BUT 3"
> 
> 279 seems like a fitting tritype for you though? but that's a terrible way to type


I think 279 does seem like a fitting tritype! Especially the whole "diffuses situations with humor" thing  I find it more suitable for me than the 379, but of course I also feel my 3 wing is quite strong. 

Okay! I will try that hat on to see how it fits. To be fair I can absolutely see it!


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Immolate said:


> Do you identify most strongly with your intelligence, and by intelligence do you mean academic success? Do you feel any particular way when your intelligence is put under scrutiny?


I mean in a broader sense, like being able to solve problems efficiently (including random stuff like videogames), understanding concepts without much trouble and analyzing well. Academic sucess is more of a side effect of my curiosity, as I'm kinda lazy and it depends a lot of the classes motivating me enough to remembering information. Besides, my memory is bad so being able to problem solve depends of also having access to the details when I need to double check if an equation is right. 

Yes, it's not nice at all when people act like I'm stupid or tell that I'm too slow for grasping things when I think they either don't know me well, or want to hurt me like my dad. I'm aware of the concepts that give me trouble, so this is more when my competency gets questioned unfairly (like that stuff of women being bad at math becomes annoying, more if I bothered to do my research), while I don't mind that much if it's put under scrutiny by checking if I can analyze an idea or if I'm not just making up stuff that's not true.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I am curious - what does my pinterest say about me (in my signature)? Any impressions, mbti, enneagram, socionics - would be appreciated. I don't go on it very much, but I do have a few images on it as of now. 

I have been feeling like the SP instinct people see in my collages is actually type 9, being that it's a body type. Do you see it in these images also? What types and instinct stand out to you?


----------



## Immolate

Dragheart Luard said:


> I mean in a broader sense, like being able to solve problems efficiently (including random stuff like videogames), understanding concepts without much trouble and analyzing well. Academic sucess is more of a side effect of my curiosity, as I'm kinda lazy and it depends a lot of the classes motivating me enough to remembering information. Besides, my memory is bad so being able to problem solve depends of also having access to the details when I need to double check if an equation is right.
> 
> Yes, it's not nice at all when people act like I'm stupid or tell that I'm too slow for grasping things when I think they either don't know me well, or want to hurt me like my dad. I'm aware of the concepts that give me trouble, so this is more when my competency gets questioned unfairly (like that stuff of women being bad at math becomes annoying, more if I bothered to do my research), while I don't mind that much if it's put under scrutiny by checking if I can analyze an idea or if I'm not just making up stuff that's not true.


Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

I asked because what you described was similar to my own experience as a child, feeling socially and emotionally deficient and relying or focusing far too much on my mind. In terms of academic success, I had a hypercritical parent who expected nothing short of perfection and sooner pointed out the negatives than the positives (I remember once stopping to tie my shoe during an award ceremony and being castigated for delaying the proceedings rather than congratulated for doing well in school). I developed a very strong need to be without error and also learned to dislike people and circumstances that placed demands or expectations on me.



Rose for a Heart said:


> I am curious - what does my pinterest say about me (in my signature)? Any impressions, mbti, enneagram, socionics - would be appreciated. I don't go on it very much, but I do have a few images on it as of now.
> 
> I have been feeling like the SP instinct people see in my collages is actually type 9, being that it's a body type. Do you see it in these images also? What types and instinct stand out to you?


Chalk it up to Si.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

To all I am responding to. The thread was closed when I returned to make these responses the first time, and I was too tired to answer all this the second time. Apologies for the delay.



drmiller100 said:


> that was all me in school. this SOOOOOOO much describes me.
> 
> later in life I ran into people from highschool. the jocks were very nervous. I didn't realize how much I intimidated them in school.
> the gays, and latinos, and nerds and some of teh quiet mousy girls made a point to say hi and be friendly. A LOT more people liked me than I realized back then.
> 
> also, Your signature line screams Sx to me. What stacking do you think you are? just curious.


People are almost never afraid of me. They only become afraid after I have taken action, or when I go on a tirade. I have good awareness of how I am coming across to others and modulate myself to be where I want to. I know how to terrify with a gaze, if I want to. It's one reason why I question my Socionics typing of IEI - my FeSe seems too strong, but my Ni is the most important thing to me, so...I dunno. I suspect that the rough childhood I led allowed me to strengthen my Se beyond what is normal for IEI. Perhaps the most amusing typings I have been getting lately is IEI-D (In case you don't know what that means, D stands for Dominant, a subtype in the DCNH subtype system. Options include Dominant, Creative, Normalizing, Harmonizing IIRC. Dominant types have strengthened Ne and Se).

I usually align my behavior such that I stand outside the groups around me, and watch before I join. I am like a cautious bird, unsure if what I see be food or danger, when it comes to socializing. Lately, I have learned how to socialize without socializing. That is, to appear to be welcoming and friendly to the customers that enter my store - and even to feel welcoming - but ultimately it is a persona I adopt and not my typical behavior. I'm sort of fronting, if you will, although there are some regular customers I am growing fond of on a more personal level.

Adopting this persona is usually exhausting.

Why does my signature scream Sx? What is Sx to you?

I identify heavily with the description of Social Five in Wisdom of the Enneagram, but I think soc instinct is not really my thing. It's the "social role" of the five that I fulfill. The wise man standing aside that brings down knowledge from the heavens. That's all me. But my actual instincts? I suspect SX/SP or SP/SX. The stratification of my behavior between friends and nonfriends suggest SX first, overall.



Stellafera said:


> Hm, ever read _Ender's Shadow_? I didn't think it was as good as _Ender's Game_ + _Speaker for the Dead_, but its characterization of Bean reminds me of what you described without Ender's feely-ness.


I am just as feely as Ender. Ever notice that Ender is always feeling bad about things AFTER the fact? In the moment, there is a moment of trepidation, followed by calculated cold action. After it is all said and done is when there are regrets.

My choices in school were just like this. I do regret them, too. I regret many things I have done, things I wish I could have done better. But ultimately I must move on. I am more than my past. I am more than regret. It will remain, and it serves its purpose in my destiny. It is in pain and in suffering that we learn the truest lessons about ourselves. This much I know.



star tripper said:


> Shit I didn't see all this Ender's Game shit. That's my shit right there. I have to respond.
> 
> That's why I loved EG too. I completely related to meeting force with such a stupid amount of force that nobody would try me again. Finishing them. Endgame. But it wasn't from a place of fear so much as... instinct? It was just the sensible thing to do. Ender definitely felt it harder than I did. I wasn't a monster. I just needed to show people they couldn't control me. Why? I don't know. I just can't let people think it.


This is where we differ. I do feel ashamed of having done these things. I used the word monster because inside, when I think about what I did, that's the word that comes to me to describe....me.

*sigh*

This is getting me down. I'm going to move on to the next thing now.

I totally get not being able to let people think they can control you. I won't let others do that to me, either. What I like to do, though, is to let others think that they are in control while I am actually secretly pulling all the strings behind the scenes. I make polite suggestions and watch as they enact them and think they are the big boss. I'm actually quite dominant in my day to day life, but in a strangely covert way. It's not in your face.

Not that I can't do it in your face. I proved that much to myself a long time ago. Not even weapons in my face will make me shift away and be something other than what I am. I will not be coerced. My choices cannot be taken away from me. No one's can.



star tripper said:


> For starters, I relate to the one-upsmanship hardcore. Thought it was an ENTP thing possibly. I do always have to have the upperhand, place people lower on the rung. I love leading though.
> 
> On a completely irrelevant note, Ender's Shadow was really good until they started stripping Ender of his accomplishments and giving them to Bean instead. DC did that with Dick Grayson too. Total bullshit. Some people are just that fucking extraordinary. You don't need to spread their awesomeness to others. Fuck Julien Delphiki (or whatever Bean's real name is) and fuck Jason Todd and Tim Drake. *clears throat* But Shadow of the Giant is low-key better than Xenocide and Children of the Mind.
> 
> Anyway, I agree with you. I just had to express that opinion.


I have only read Ender's Game. The rest are on my list, but honestly people tell me so much negative feedback about them it just ends up still on my long list of things to get to, eventually. If I were a Seven I'd go insane with the number of things that are STILL on my to-do list, some of which have been on it for a decade.

(I don't keep an actual list. I just have a good memory)



Animal said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">The Night's Queen</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> I see IEE for you also
> 
> EIE is not, in truth, the over-expressive "feeling-splatter" stereotype that some of the forums have made it out to be. Fe ego is about being attuned to an emotional atmosphere and the impression given. EIE-Fe, in particular, is known to have almost.. a veil up, showing the world a perfect wall of emotional impact due to being over-attuned to atmosphere and expectations. Fe is very attuned to this; they can't shut it off.
> 
> EIE-Ni will be more likely to carry on about intuitive impressions, but still would present tightly as though through a veil. Fe egos are always aware of the impression they are giving. ESE's are more loose because their creative Si makes for an atmosphere of 'comfort' and the Ne HA gives them a "let's play!" type of vibe, but the EIE has Se HA, which makes them want to appear strong, fit, looking solid and good, and they have the Ni creative, which makes them very aware of how things will turn out over time. Ni is about cause and effect, so when Ni creative is filtered through a Fe ego, you have tremendous awareness of how each statement will be received.
> 
> This is not to say that EIE's are always pleasant. They might WANT to cause disturbance or disruption. They will always think 10 steps ahead about how their statements will be received; but this is not to presume they intend for them to be pleasant.


That's a pretty good way of summing it up. I don't know that I could have put it better myself 

I will add that part of what makes EIE a type that isn't always pleasant is that they have Fi as their Ignoring Function. They can be real hardasses because they are not trying to develop relationships, nor do they do it automatically as though unintentionally like a Fi Demonstrative (xEI) would. They know how they are coming across, but that doesn't mean they wish to come across as friendly.



Animal said:


> You are far too free, open, giggly. Your creative function Fi really shows: you connect and click with people at will, being all chummy with them, then do that again with the next people. This is not to take anything away from the authenticity of your true friendships or connections; but just to point out that you are able to play with 'relating' and relations, and you are very comfortable in this area. The Ne ego shows in how you come up with different sub-threads to illustrate your points all the time. Rather than over-focus on your points the way Betas do, you go off on millions of tangents and sub-tangents, throwing out many ideas to see what sticks.
> 
> I also have seen Si seeking in your collages and tumblr, which give a sense that you want some grounded comfort, as though you are a wanderer dreaming of a beautiful home.
> 
> I've noticed, with Ne-Si types, an axis: exploration vs. foundation. There may be a wanderlust, a need to travel far, but there is also a sense they are seeking their 'true home.' Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense this vibe in the type of pictures you choose.
> 
> Ti-polR shows in, simply put, the lack of focus on dissecting one point or sticking to one idea of what a type means, in favor of throwing out many references and trying out many different angles. You do love to analyze, and write very long posts digging into a point, but you might dig into it from a completely different angle a few days later. This makes you explicitly creative and adventurous of mind.


I am curious to know what Quadra you feel I come off as. Care to share?

Holy hell, what you say about NeSi and finding a 'true home' sounds exactly like my ILE friend! She has even USED THOSE WORDS to describe herself. It took me a long time to figure out she has to be an IxE, too. I'm going to remember this observation about NeSi.



Rose for a Heart said:


> I had a question. How do other types experience their identity? How is it different from or similar to a 4's fixation on identity?


I'm not sure of my type.

I experience my identity as an obvious piece of information about myself that cannot be summed up in words in a clear manner. Like, it took me most of my life to find a way to encapsulate my identity in just a couple words, and that is super abstract. Y'all already know them, its my username. The Phoenix with the heart of the Wolf is as close as I have come to describing myself in less than 10,000 words.

I don't really see my identity as 'separate' from me. It isn't a piece of information. I am me. I just am. What I can do with it is piece out the little bits that form up me. I can find my attitudes, beliefs, hopes and dreams, worries and fears, my despair...I can isolate them all. But to talk about ME, as in the whole collection? A difficult prospect. 

I'm complicated. This song is my liiiiiife:






Jeez, I hadn't listened to that in months. A buddy of mine always listens to things he is passionate about on repeat for days, and then whenever he comes back to it he is instantly back into it. He gets like, stuck almost, in these things. Like the mere presence of the thing puts him back into the reaction of the thing just like that. It seems to me like the thing itself is only half-real to him, because he doesn't come back to it with a fresh mind. 

I don't do that. I listen to this song, and feel a host of different things depending on the day and my mood. The first time I heard this, I cried. The next time, a sort of bone-deep empathy for myself - a strange sensation. Like...I felt like Alanis and I were the same person for a moment, and we were looking inside and seeing this complication and saying "It's OK this is all ok". With a touch of "if they are still here then it isn't all bad". That was the moment I first realized I do not love myself. Today, I listened to it and just felt happy. It's a good song. And when she held up the thank you to the camera, I felt flattered. Never felt anything about that part before. It changes every time, and I don't obsess and get stuck.

There are not many things in this world that have ever made me feel UNDERSTOOD. This song is one of them. The movie Mulan is another; her fight for her own choices and to choose, again and again, to defend what matters. Ender Wiggin is a third, because we think alike. Harry Dresden the fourth. I think that may be all of them, actually.



daleks_exterminate said:


> lately ive been considering enfj 2w3...
> nevermind, it was just my period.


I did a spit take and then spent five minutes cleaning my computer.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

star tripper said:


> Shit I didn't see all this Ender's Game shit. That's my shit right there. I have to respond.
> 
> That's why I loved EG too. I completely related to meeting force with such a stupid amount of force that nobody would try me again. Finishing them. Endgame. But it wasn't from a place of fear so much as... instinct? It was just the sensible thing to do. Ender definitely felt it harder than I did. I wasn't a monster. I just needed to show people they couldn't control me. Why? I don't know. I just can't let people think it.


Secondary response. I wrote this piece, and thought you might appreciate it. It expresses my philosophy on force and war quite nicely.

"A soldier, above all, needs to be able to stand ready. He needs to take care of himself enough that he can react on the fly. He needs a healthy mindset for his particular personality style. He needs to actually talk things through if he goes through traumas. To that end, he needs to have understanding and he needs to feel like he is worth something according to his own values. For that to really work, someone needs to be personally interested in him and in touch with him. A buddy system kind of thing. That's why we use squads.

This is why personable "Generals of the People" are so successful. The only thing they do differently is treat their soldiers like real people. That's something a soldier needs, an innate understanding that they *matter*. If push came to shove, I think I could make a great general. I would provide that fundamental human need. I would be on site, right where the action is, in danger as much as the soldiers at least on base if not on the field, and I would *validate* my soldiers for their bravery. That sort of General dies more easily, but hey, that's what happens in war. And that is what my men need, so that is what they get. 

War should be thought of as defense, not just for ones country, but for the good of man kind as a whole. When a soldier falls into the filthy gutters of the human mind, his first instinct shouldn't be to avenge, but to correct. Unfortunately, the big picture demands that lives be lost. And what ever merit that places on man, well, we can only strive to live up to.

The best weapon you can wield against someone psychologically is anger. Anger is a predictable emotion. An angry person generally constricts into predictable patterns, and more importantly loses their ability to reason and figure out your tactics. Anger your enemy while simultaneously tightening your strategy, and the path to victory clears. To know what angers them, you must understand them. "Seek first to understand", says the wise man. 

A common weak spot is the sentries not doing their job, aka a general lack of discipline. This can occur when a leader is too soft, which I am willing to bet I might be toward my own men. Another one is the terrain contributing to physical weak spots, which the scouts missed. Then there is entrenched positions in prolonged battles enabling tunneling, so searching for those. Any battles in a populated area will be rife with people that are potential spies. Romance between soldiers and locals can lead to vindictive attitudes and potential spies ripe for the picking. I would search for suspicious activities among the men to root out the spies in our midst, and also for soldiers that are just too perfect. One trademark of the skilled professional spy is they learn to fit in entirely, to the point of seeming to be the least interesting person that is somehow always present. This sort of person is everyone's 'friend', and yet when pressed people may not even be able to describe them!

Strong generals, especially well trained or level headed ones, won't easily crack and give in to anger. For those, a good strategy is to attack their attachments. Find out what they really care about, and take that away from them. Take out their family, destroy their possessions, render them alone and insecure without any support structure but their own talents and their men. Apply this pressure to crack their reserve, and goad them into a breakdown or into the aforementioned anger. Remove their ability to function intelligently.

Some commanders can resist even that, although few come out unaffected. For those, it is time to destroy the one thing that keeps them in control. Their reputation among their own troops. Spread the seeds of doubt in the commander's ability to lead, and the soldiers themselves lose discipline, allowing for just the second of delay you need for a vicious killing strike. Do it enough, and a mutiny just might do your job for you.

All of these tactics will disrupt the army's movements and degrade morale as well, whereupon attacking their supplies can come in. At that point, you can start spreading vicious rumors with your spies about the immoral activities happening in the command structure. You can murder key personnel and make it seem like a drunken fight. You can slip poison into the mess hall and let dozens die horribly, and then nudge the charged atmosphere into blaming the transport wing of their forces for gross incompetency.

You can move your own men into the vacant positions of leadership, or better yet into supply, and sow more chaos. Control their forces and control yours and the war is yours, especially if you can be sure to pick the field of battle. Even if your spies are caught, the damage is done, and further the fact that spies managed to get in and do that much damage will often result in a crackdown on the security guys, further creating dissension in the ranks.

Get your men to open the gates and let Strike Teams in. Destroy their arms and armor, set fire to the barracks, salt the earth. Do everything that the enemy thought you would never do. Use these tactics and unexpected assaults creatively to cover up the secret operations you have going on deeper in as you send more agents into deeper cover. Learn their secret battle plans. Posit plans your forces could be doing that are not just off base by dangerously off-kilter suggestions that leave them unready for the hell you shall unleash on them.

Above all, never, ever, ever let up. The plan is never done. Leave space to add more steps at every point. It is over when the enemy lies in ruins and your own men walk away with barely a scratch. Make the enemy believe that you are without weaknesses, that you are the literal spawn of demons and a force they could never hope to match. Withdraw rather than stand your ground, and fight every step of the withdrawing path with traps at every turn. Confuse and disorient the enemy. Understand their expectations, and accommodate your battle plans for where they will be to inflict the most damage possible in the shortest possible time.

Do this right, and the enemy will rout, and casualties will hopefully be less in the end.

If I encountered someone doing the same thing to me, I would fake my own death and set up a figurehead in my place who's primary features are that he is sociable and gets on well with the troops. Preferably a guy with no close family and who can deal with a lot of stress and keep on smiling. I would figure out what the weak spots are by observing people and inserting my own spies within the ranks of my own soldiers to locate the spies within my soldiers that are not really my own people. More than that would require some deep thought and planning for me to be able to tell you, as so very much depends on the situation. Then I'd go undercover myself and begin engaging in guerrilla missions against my own troops with nonlethal weaponry in order to test my own defenses for weak spots, retreating before any real damage is done. Once I have identified my own blind spots and the enemy has begun laying plans for the removal of my inconsequential figurehead, I will implement my own plans to upset theirs while I rip their spies and other forces out of my own troops and reassume command. Then I would organize a general retreat and call in intelligent backup and explain the situation in detail, including my own actions."

Also on the topic of fighting. I am clumsy and make lots of physical mistakes all the time. Yet somehow, I do pretty well at sparring with others. Friends of mine who have years of martial arts training compliment me on my sparring and ask where i trained.

...I haven't trained.

I have been reading about martial arts lately and trying to isolate why it is I seem to have an intuitive grasp of the arts of fighting, and I think I figured it out. I intuitively understand the concepts of the "Stop attack" and the "Simultaneous Parry and Attack", both of which are supposed to be hard to learn but very effective. This makes it look like I am much better than I am. Interestingly, these concepts are central to Jeet Kune Do, a martial art centered on fluidity and adaptability. The fact that I am untrained and naturally fight in a fluid and adaptable manner that happens to utilize some efficient techniques leads to me being a decent natural.

I'm unpredictable. I like that.

"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend."


----------



## Paradigm

navi__x3 said:


> Ah! I'm 99.99% sure of sp/sx
> let me know what you think otherwise!


I won't go into instincts, then 

How do you relate to the triads of 2 and 3?

2 is: superego/compliant, positive outlook, power, rejection

3 is: id/assertive, competency, approval, attachment


Edit: I want to add, you shouldn't factor tritype into this yet.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Immolate said:


> Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
> 
> I asked because what you described was similar to my own experience as a child, feeling socially and emotionally deficient and relying or focusing far too much on my mind. In terms of academic success, I had a hypercritical parent who expected nothing short of perfection and sooner pointed out the negatives than the positives (I remember once stopping to tie my shoe during an award ceremony and being castigated for delaying the proceedings rather than congratulated for doing well in school). I developed a very strong need to be without error and also learned to dislike people and circumstances that placed demands or expectations on me.


Yeah, my mom definitely matches the hypercritical parent thing as well. She always punished me when I forgot to do things for school and she was critical when I didn't get a perfect score. Later she wondered why I felt so bad when I failed my first math test at college, when I already was forced to apply that unreasonable standard to myself  seriously I still can't get over this fact as she screwed me up.

Another thing that bugs me is when people expect that I do something and their instructions are vague, or they change tasks without any explanation. Then all this vague posting/tweeting thing annoys me, as people usually do that for getting pity or for being passive-aggressive. Like, if they want to talk shit to someone, why they don't complain directly instead of posting stuff like, everything sucks.


----------



## Animal

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I am curious to know what Quadra you feel I come off as. Care to share?
> 
> Holy hell, what you say about NeSi and finding a 'true home' sounds exactly like my ILE friend! She has even USED THOSE WORDS to describe herself. It took me a long time to figure out she has to be an IxE, too. I'm going to remember this observation about NeSi.


Ohh nice , I'm glad if I could word it in a way that makes sense  

I will let you know if anything stands out. I've learned that when I pick apart people's posts to try to figure out their type, I end up getting lost in the details, whereas, if I just wait til it hits me in the face, I am accurate more often than not. So I will not comment for now, but I'll keep an eye out.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@Paradigm BTW, your link about directional theory confirmed that I'm not a frustration type, as reading about the stuff about moving against long term hit uncomfortably close home to me (the possessive part was the worst tho). So thanks a lot for posting it on this thread.


----------



## Dangerose

Reminds me, can anyone tell me what's meant by 2 'moving against' long term? Always had trouble relating it to myself but I'm not really sure what it's supposed to mean.



> The 2’s compulsion moves toward others on the surface, but against them underneath. This explains how average 2s can be warm, helpful, and even seductive on the outside, while harboring a hidden agenda and a strong will underneath. This willpower is masked by their embracing exterior; hence, they seek power through other people, rather than through direct force. The 2 may befriend powerful people, exerting influence as the "power behind the throne". All power-seekers have a strong sense of ownership, which often comes across as a possessive tendency. The 2’s possessiveness applies to people, analogous to the 5’s possession of information (hoarding), or the 8’s possession of physical resources (territorialism). The 2 often gets particular credit for the universal human need to be loved. This may be because 2’s use their inner will and exterior charm to make people love them, thus making their desire for love more noticeable than in other types.


I'm not a character in a costume drama so I'm not sure what to do with this


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The Night's Queen said:


> Reminds me, can anyone tell me what's meant by 2 'moving against' long term? Always had trouble relating it to myself but I'm not really sure what it's supposed to mean.


It speaks to me of your ideal of the perfect princess. All that bit you were saying about all the things you want to be. It is socially moving against people, because in essence you want to be better than a typical person. You want to be the really great person. It's pride. Pride is aggressive in a manner of speaking. It moves against the other, presses them, seeks to be approved for being great by pushing them with all the things that you do. The Two helps because the Two wants to be loved for what they do, which means there is an ulterior motive of pushing the other into performing an action, the action of validating and loving. That's forces in balance against one another, a push from one to the other.

Its why Twos are sometimes seen as overbearing.


----------



## Dangerose

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> It speaks to me of your ideal of the perfect princess. All that bit you were saying about all the things you want to be. It is socially moving against people, because in essence you want to be better than a typical person. You want to be the really great person. It's pride. Pride is aggressive in a manner of speaking. It moves against the other, presses them, seeks to be approved for being great by pushing them with all the things that you do. The Two helps because the Two wants to be loved for what they do, which means there is an ulterior motive of pushing the other into performing an action, the action of validating and loving. That's forces in balance against one another, a push from one to the other.
> 
> Its why Twos are sometimes seen as overbearing.


ugh you did not understand my whole thing there)
It's an ideal) It's normal for people to strive for an ideal) It has nothing to do with wanting to be better than other people)

"Why be concerned with others, come to that, when you've outdone your own self?" 
~Seneca 

Don't tell me Seneca was an E2 

As for the rest thanks)
Not sure I see that in myself though 

(But, pretty sure on 2 anyways)


----------



## Krayfish

I think I was wrong about 6 and am actually a 9w1. Apparently sx lasts often mistype as head types as well as T types in mbti. Also there was a conversation about 9 vs 4 on this thread that resonated with me a bit, which is why I think I am a 9. Just putting it out there in case anyone thinks I'm way off the beaten path with this.


----------



## Coburn

Am 4 sx. So much me. Very concerning. Pls send help.


----------



## Dangerose

Krayfish said:


> I think I was wrong about 6 and am actually a 9w1. Apparently sx lasts often mistype as head types as well as T types in mbti. Also there was a conversation about 9 vs 4 on this thread that resonated with me a bit, which is why I think I am a 9. Just putting it out there in case anyone thinks I'm way off the beaten path with this.


Reminds me, keep meaning to go through your thread (it's a sunny day so I 'don't have time' but I'll try to go over it tonight

What does your avatar signify for you?


----------



## navi__x3

Paradigm said:


> I won't go into instincts, then
> 
> How do you relate to the triads of 2 and 3?
> 
> 2 is: superego/compliant, positive outlook, power, rejection
> 
> 3 is: id/assertive, competency, approval, attachment
> 
> 
> Edit: I want to add, you shouldn't factor tritype into this yet.


Thanks for the webpage I found it very helpful. 

I would say I probably am closer to 2 from the group descriptions. I also relate to 3 much more than 1 so I suppose that would just indicate I am a 2w3 yes?

The only thing I don't relate to--is I don't give up my own needs to focus on other people's.


----------



## DOGSOUP

I'm so bummed out that no one has ever tried to brutally or gently reveal my mistypings :/


----------



## Manuscript

I wouldn't mind being challenged either. Is it a rite of passage?


----------



## Dangerose

navi__x3 said:


> The only thing I don't relate to--is I don't give up my own needs to focus on other people's.


I don't relate to this either  It feels like slightly more of a 9 thing anyways?
I don't seem to have anything clever to say about it...but I don't think 2s have to do this.

I mean...I do see something like this from so _very un-self-aware_ 2s, with a strong understanding on their part that they are doing this...have one social 2w3 friend on Facebook who makes all kinds of humblebraggy posts all the day long ("It was so worth it giving up my lunch to this homeless man outside my office, love seeing that look in peoples' eyes that tells me that the little things can make a difference!" Feeling blessed") but even in that case what she's buying some sort of esteem (in her imagination I have to presume). 

The other thing is...2s giving up everything to get love of someone...making ridiculous compromises because they think love of person is worth all this other stuff, but that again is different...

Or not really making compromises, but 2 is under the delusion that love can be bought, perhaps bought forcefully, so offers up 'sacrifices' the other person never asked for, then believes they have struck a deal, and has a right to the person's attention.

My interpretation of Shae from Game of Thrones is a sx 2w3...took risks to be with Tyrion (that he specifically did not want her to take), waiting in his chamber where she wasn't supposed to be, etc., think she thought that bought her the right to not be broken up with and merited betraying him when he did.

Michael Scott from The Office too...so 2w3...obviously thinks he's some sort of saint for the things he does for his office and thinks that this means they are friends, "I did this for you, therefore we are friends", like that...actually he's _usually_ being selfish and holding something back, but he doesn't realize it.

And:











And sometimes 2s have a false idea that they are sacrificing, they 'can't stand to be deprived' so maybe anything feels like a huge concession

But none of this is quite the same as giving up needs to focus on other people's...

Would like to hear someone talk about it.


----------



## navi__x3

The Night's Queen said:


> I don't relate to this either  It feels like slightly more of a 9 thing anyways?
> I don't seem to have anything clever to say about it...but I don't think 2s have to do this.
> 
> I mean...I do see something like this from so _very un-self-aware_ 2s, with a strong understanding on their part that they are doing this...have one social 2w3 friend on Facebook who makes all kinds of humblebraggy posts all the day long ("It was so worth it giving up my lunch to this homeless man outside my office, love seeing that look in peoples' eyes that tells me that the little things can make a difference!" Feeling blessed") but even in that case what she's buying some sort of esteem (in her imagination I have to presume).
> 
> The other thing is...2s giving up everything to get love of someone...making ridiculous compromises because they think love of person is worth all this other stuff, but that again is different...
> 
> Or not really making compromises, but 2 is under the delusion that love can be bought, perhaps bought forcefully, so offers up 'sacrifices' the other person never asked for, then believes they have struck a deal, and has a right to the person's attention.
> 
> My interpretation of Shae from Game of Thrones is a sx 2w3...took risks to be with Tyrion (that he specifically did not want her to take), waiting in his chamber where she wasn't supposed to be, etc., think she thought that bought her the right to not be broken up with and merited betraying him when he did.
> 
> Michael Scott from The Office too...so 2w3...obviously thinks he's some sort of saint for the things he does for his office and thinks that this means they are friends, "I did this for you, therefore we are friends", like that...actually he's _usually_ being selfish and holding something back, but he doesn't realize it.
> 
> And:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And sometimes 2s have a false idea that they are sacrificing, they 'can't stand to be deprived' so maybe anything feels like a huge concession
> 
> But none of this is quite the same as giving up needs to focus on other people's...
> 
> Would like to hear someone talk about it.


Hahaha, as someone who has seen every episode of the Office I love that you used Michael Scott as an example. I actually had an ex who identified with Michael Scott in a lot of ways (not *every* way... Fortunately hahah), I felt I understood him very well. We ended up staying good friends after breaking up and hung out for years. I heard people with the same enneagram make natural and understanding friendships. (While those with opposite enneagrams make the best relationships. This would be good for my own since my fiancé is 8w7--which I've seen is the best match for 2w3.)

I'm definitely as goofy and ridiculous...

I was talking to my fiancé about it, and he told me I have a lot in common with my 2w1 ISFJ aunt, so I think that's enough evidence so far to suit 2 for me as he knows us so thoroughly well.

I remember reading that 2w3s; when _very_ healthy give generously without expecting anything in return from the receiver. Instead allowing gifts to be showered upon them by the universe which wholly describes me. (I won't get into details.. Because it would sound kinda pretentious but I have to be honest here to truly find my type right?)

As a teenager I've definitely gotten angry with friends for doing things like moving away without saying goodbye to me... Like I deserved it for being "such a good friend" to them. Not something I would do as an adult but I suppose that could also indicate the translation from unhealthy to maturity.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The Night's Queen said:


> ugh you did not understand my whole thing there)
> It's an ideal) It's normal for people to strive for an ideal) It has nothing to do with wanting to be better than other people)
> 
> "Why be concerned with others, come to that, when you've outdone your own self?"
> ~Seneca
> 
> Don't tell me Seneca was an E2
> 
> As for the rest thanks)
> Not sure I see that in myself though
> 
> (But, pretty sure on 2 anyways)


Is it that I misunderstood? Or is it that I see what you do not?

How do you know?

Your quote sounds One to me. Outdoing yourself and such. Competency and self focused.

"It's normal for people to strive for an ideal". Is it really? Do you believe that all people do this? And if people do strive for an ideal, that means they wish for things to be better than they are now. So if their ideal has to do with people and societal strictures, isn't that essentially wanting to rise above what is wrong with the way people/things are now? That's wanting to be better. It isn't malicious. It isn't "You suck and I'm great". But it is proudly proclaiming the virtues of self, and the ideals strived for.

Kinda like that animal testing issue. So many people refuse to use products that had animal testing done with them. That's an ideal striving for a world where that doesn't happen. And many of them that I have met do think they are better than others who are not striving for that ideal. And many of them don't seem to realize that's part of their attitude. And I'm not saying that they aren't better - mayhap they are, really. Its admirable to stand up for whats right against scorn and opposition. But the attitude can be jarring. :/



DOGSOUP said:


> I'm so bummed out that no one has ever tried to brutally or gently reveal my mistypings :/


How brutal do you [strikethrough]fantasize[/strikethrough] want it to be?


----------



## Krayfish

The Night's Queen said:


> Reminds me, keep meaning to go through your thread (it's a sunny day so I 'don't have time' but I'll try to go over it tonight
> 
> What does your avatar signify for you?


With my avatar I was just trying to go with something that represented me, at least to some extent. To me, my avatar signifies an observer. It sees and it analyzes whatever it can in silence. Somehow, while the image is a bit creepy if you look at it for too long, it still gives off a semi-friendly vibe.


----------



## Dangerose

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Is it that I misunderstood? Or is it that I see what you do not?


I feel like you are still focusing on the social class element of me using the word 'princess' and I feel like you misunderstood. 
I'm not really under illusions that I'm not competitive or want to be better than other people...well, I want to be better than _some_ people. But the 'princess' thing (you are making me hate that word lol) has nothing to do with that. Wanting to be good is not the same as wanting to be better. :/

As I've said, I believe in objective truth, and beauty and goodness, I believe in God, I'm no sort of relativist and I don't live in that world.... I think it makes a difference :/



> Your quote sounds One to me. Outdoing yourself and such. Competency and self focused.


If it had to be an Enneagram type, yeah.



> "It's normal for people to strive for an ideal". Is it really? Do you believe that all people do this?


Is your idea of 'normal' what all people do?
To some extent...all people strive for an ideal, yes. Maybe not as specifically as I laid it out there but it's a pretty common concept.



> And if people do strive for an ideal, that means they wish for things to be better than they are now. So if their ideal has to do with people and societal strictures, isn't that essentially wanting to rise above what is wrong with the way people/things are now? That's wanting to be better. It isn't malicious. It isn't "You suck and I'm great". But it is proudly proclaiming the virtues of self, and the ideals strived for.


Yes...but different. You're talking about something different, I can tell :/


> Kinda like that animal testing issue. So many people refuse to use products that had animal testing done with them. That's an ideal striving for a world where that doesn't happen. And many of them that I have met do think they are better than others who are not striving for that ideal. And many of them don't seem to realize that's part of their attitude. And I'm not saying that they aren't better - mayhap they are, really. Its admirable to stand up for whats right against scorn and opposition. But the attitude can be jarring. :/


Yes...that's not what I'm talking about?
Don't think we're going to understand each other on this one


----------



## DOGSOUP

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> How brutal do you [strikethrough]fantasize[/strikethrough] want it to be?


Absolutely barbaric :S


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The Night's Queen said:


> I feel like you are still focusing on the social class element of me using the word 'princess' and I feel like you misunderstood.
> I'm not really under illusions that I'm not competitive or want to be better than other people...well, I want to be better than _some_ people. But the 'princess' thing (you are making me hate that word lol) has nothing to do with that. Wanting to be good is not the same as wanting to be better. :/


It isn't about the princess, its about the idealizations of the word princess. Its about the idealization of anything which you are striving for.

Being competitive is certainly "moving against" people, even if its friendly. It is perhaps a better example of what I am trying to point out. Competitiveness *is* wanting to be better. We can say that is true....objectively. 



The Night's Queen said:


> As I've said, I believe in objective truth, and beauty and goodness, I believe in God, I'm no sort of relativist and I don't live in that world.... I think it makes a difference :/


You really like not being a relativist. I think that is an interesting perspective.



The Night's Queen said:


> Is your idea of 'normal' what all people do?
> To some extent...all people strive for an ideal, yes. Maybe not as specifically as I laid it out there but it's a pretty common concept.


All? No. At least a majority? Yes. Otherwise it would not be 'normal'. That's what normal means. If it isn't conforming to a standard that can be applied to many people, then it is not 'normal'.

I don't know that I agree that all people strive for the ideal. I see this as similar to what was said earlier by @Rose for a Heart about all people feeling shame. It seems to me...that when someone is a certain Enneagram type, the primary issue of that type is the thing that people assume is "just something everyone does/has to deal with". Huh. That's actually really insightful, if its true. I need to investigate that. 

Anyway. I've met several people that I think do not strive for or recognize ideals. There are pragmatic people in the world who just accept things as they are. They don't even like discussing the ideal of what things could be. It's a little irritating XD



The Night's Queen said:


> Yes...but different. You're talking about something different, I can tell :/


Well, yeah, but why wouldn't I be? I'm talking about my thing to illustrate an abstract point that is hard to elucidate. Naturally I cannot do so in only your language and in ways that perfectly match up only to things that you have said.

Or, put another way, when I am elucidating a point I move away from the point, then circle back, leapfrogging back and forth over my own thought processes. I have a starting point based in what you said, but that doesn't mean my ending point is still based entirely in what you said. I internalize and convert information to my own worldview, so when I come back with it to you its going to have my own stamp on it.



The Night's Queen said:


> Yes...that's not what I'm talking about?
> Don't think we're going to understand each other on this one


Yes, I know. That's what I'm talking about. Just now. You were there. 

Hehe. Snark snark snark.

The point of the animal testing issue as it relates to this point is that it is a Twoish concern (not for everyone but definitely for some) that illustrates the same point I am trying to get at in a different way. "It's kinda like" means "this is a similar thing that doesn't apply to you but shows the same concept I am getting at from a different, more extreme angle".

Synthesis thinking. I'm sorry I didn't make the purpose there more clear.



DOGSOUP said:


> Absolutely barbaric :S


Heh. Noted. I'll begin noting any and every discrepancy in preparation of calling you out.

Don't get too excited. Or do. Maybe that'll make it all more fun


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I don't know that I agree that all people strive for the ideal. I see this as similar to what was said earlier by @*Rose for a Heart* about all people feeling shame. It seems to me...that when someone is a certain Enneagram type, the primary issue of that type is the thing that people assume is "just something everyone does/has to deal with". Huh. That's actually really insightful, if its true. I need to investigate that.


My point was, you can't type people at 4 (or heart type) on the basis of "they feel a lot of shame." It's not specific to the type. Perhaps @The Night's Queen is trying to make a similar argument, I haven't read the conversation.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Rose for a Heart said:


> My point was, you can't type people at 4 (or heart type) on the basis of "they feel a lot of shame." It's not specific to the type. Perhaps @The Night's Queen is trying to make a similar argument, I haven't read the conversation.


You are probably right about it not being a good basis for a typing.

I do think it is an interesting observation nonetheless. I mean, the more I read you saying that about shame and the basic humanity of it, the more I found myself thinking of my friend Theo, an obvious Three who is driven by shame but doesn't let himself recognize it...and contrast him with my other friend Gina, who will tell you in excruciating detail about all her health issues and sexual problems and everything else without ever realizing that maybe the other person doesn't want or need to hear it. Shame is experienced very differently between these two at the very least, and I daresay Gina is not too familiar with it. To put it colloquially, Gina is absolutely shameless.

Sure, I'm sure she has experienced shame at some point. But I don't think she experiences it viscerally. It isn't important, isn't significant, in her life. It isn't something to hide from or to focus on. So while I agree that shame is a very human emotion that every type experiences, I think that the WAY it is experienced is what we need to be focusing on. And that means making potentially incorrect suppositions, so seeking to understand is important. Rephrase and continue, rephrase and continue. Eventually, hopefully, you'll speak the same language about it! 

I suspect that @The Night's Queen is making a similar argument about idealism, yes. Only...perhaps a bit different. Her approach is different from yours I think.


----------



## Brains

Manuscript said:


> I wouldn't mind being challenged either. Is it a rite of passage?


It's not, just a good idea to listen to people who have a case, whether you're sure of yours or not. Worst case, you have something to think about, otherwise you learn something about yourself or realize your current typing is wrong in whole or in part. Pure profit.


----------



## a peach

I'm constantly wondering if I mistype myself;; if anyone has any thoughts, please let me know! ♥

♡ Jumps between ISFJ and ISFP.
♡ Feels very lost on enneagram;;
♡ The instinctual stacks too...welp.​


----------



## Momentz

Who wants to fuck with me? :wink:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

music box said:


> I'm constantly wondering if I mistype myself;; if anyone has any thoughts, please let me know! ♥
> ♡ Jumps between ISFJ and ISFP.
> ♡ Feels very lost on enneagram;;
> ♡ The instinctual stacks too...welp.​


Well, as far as MBTI go there's a fair bit of difference between ISFJ and ISFP if you look into functions, though I know MBTI can have more of a focus on dichotomies.


----------



## Dangerose

music box said:


> I'm constantly wondering if I mistype myself;; if anyone has any thoughts, please let me know! ♥
> 
> ♡ Jumps between ISFJ and ISFP.
> ♡ Feels very lost on enneagram;;
> ♡ The instinctual stacks too...welp.​


Your avatar and presentation here are adorable and inspiring
Right now you have 2w3 listed as your type; can you talk about what you relate to in this?


----------



## a peach

@The Night's Queen aah gosh thank you for your kind words and responding to me so quickly, I very much appreciate it! ♥ And yours looks absolutely lovely, I really love the way your username has sparkles on it, and your avatar makes you seem so regal and refined, so sweet!

Ooh I feel really badly that I jump around with enneagram types a lot;; For right now, I relate to 2w3 because I relate to feeling a deep need to be liked, and I understand that unhealthy type 2's may wish to be loved and needed? The wing 3 because I relate to the "_vain_" descriptions more than I do for wing 1. (Ooh but 2w1 sounds so genuine and altruistic and mature, I aspire to have these traits but I am very aware that I'm dramatic, needy and quite prideful of myself;; ) 

I heavily relate to the profiles that state 2w3's don't like leaving the house without looking their best, and that @ their best, are very giving and generous. I love spoiling others and giving gifts. Ooh! Last night, I really didn't have the money to spend but my boyfriend wanted doughnuts very badly so we went to go get some and then to go to get burgers, but the fast food place we went to was understaffed and the man at the window apologized to us saying it might take them some time to bring us our order. We left with our food but I felt so worried for them and awful that I couldn't leave a note, so I made my boyfriend go back in the drive-thru and asked if we could approach the window so we could give the short staff half of our doughnuts for their hard work and to help them feel a little bit better! 

In general, I love doing things like that. I worry a lot for others and want people to know that they're perfect as they are and to help ease them the best I can. I also really like listening to people's problems and reassuring them of their emotions, just to be the kind of person that others can really trust and rely on. I really value deep connections with others and hope to learn of others inside and out, I just want to see your soul and let you know how bright it shines and how wonderful you are! ♥

Ooh gosh I feel like I was getting really caught up there;; let's see, what were some of the downfalls of 2w3? Aah I'm just going off my head here, but I know I can be manipulative sometimes and I have the urge to want to use things against others when I'm in a bad place;; like if I were once betrayed, I would hold that over someone's head if I feel attacked. Or sometimes I expect others to do things for me too, as I have done for them, and feel deeply offended when others don't repay the favor. These don't happen very often, but I know it's really ugly of me;;;

Ah if you need any other answers, let me know! Thank you for listening! ♥


----------



## Dangerose

@music box thanks so much for your response; I think it all sounds a little more 2w1 but I'm curious what others will say.

That's so nice with the doughnuts...I never think of things like that  Think it can be 2ish to see this kind of opportunity (even though I fail at it), though I suppose any type could and I also see a lot of 9s being thoughtful in this way. Do think I see a 9 fix.Maybe social instinct too?
@Signorina Misteriosa any thoughts?


----------



## navi__x3

music box said:


> @The Night's Queen aah gosh thank you for your kind words and responding to me so quickly, I very much appreciate it! ♥ And yours looks absolutely lovely, I really love the way your username has sparkles on it, and your avatar makes you seem so regal and refined, so sweet!
> 
> Ooh I feel really badly that I jump around with enneagram types a lot;; For right now, I relate to 2w3 because I relate to feeling a deep need to be liked, and I understand that unhealthy type 2's may wish to be loved and needed? The wing 3 because I relate to the "_vain_" descriptions more than I do for wing 1. (Ooh but 2w1 sounds so genuine and altruistic and mature, I aspire to have these traits but I am very aware that I'm dramatic, needy and quite prideful of myself;; )
> 
> I heavily relate to the profiles that state 2w3's don't like leaving the house without looking their best, and that @ their best, are very giving and generous. I love spoiling others and giving gifts. Ooh! Last night, I really didn't have the money to spend but my boyfriend wanted doughnuts very badly so we went to go get some and then to go to get burgers, but the fast food place we went to was understaffed and the man at the window apologized to us saying it might take them some time to bring us our order. We left with our food but I felt so worried for them and awful that I couldn't leave a note, so I made my boyfriend go back in the drive-thru and asked if we could approach the window so we could give the short staff half of our doughnuts for their hard work and to help them feel a little bit better!
> 
> In general, I love doing things like that. I worry a lot for others and want people to know that they're perfect as they are and to help ease them the best I can. I also really like listening to people's problems and reassuring them of their emotions, just to be the kind of person that others can really trust and rely on. I really value deep connections with others and hope to learn of others inside and out, I just want to see your soul and let you know how bright it shines and how wonderful you are! ♥
> 
> Ooh gosh I feel like I was getting really caught up there;; let's see, what were some of the downfalls of 2w3? Aah I'm just going off my head here, but I know I can be manipulative sometimes and I have the urge to want to use things against others when I'm in a bad place;; like if I were once betrayed, I would hold that over someone's head if I feel attacked. Or sometimes I expect others to do things for me too, as I have done for them, and feel deeply offended when others don't repay the favor. These don't happen very often, but I know it's really ugly of me;;;
> 
> Ah if you need any other answers, let me know! Thank you for listening! ♥


You are such a cutie patootie I love it ctopus:

Have you ever seen this? http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-f...rvation-twos-according-beatrice-chestnut.html
Do you relate to it ? 

ETA: I am SP 2 and I totalllyyyy relate to it. I relate to the things you posted too!! That's so sweet of you to give them half your donuts--I feel so silly to relate it to myself but maybe it might help hehe. Like one time when I used to work at GameStop my fiance (who was manager at the time) forgot to let my coworker have a lunch break when he worked a double shift... I felt so bad but he kept telling me "don't buy me anything I'll be pissed at you" So when I left I ordered a pizza and had it delivered from dominoes with a note saying "too bad you get pizza anyway!" and he ended up calling me to say thank you he was very hungry heh.


----------



## Darkbloom

The Night's Queen said:


> @music box thanks so much for your response; I think it all sounds a little more 2w1 but I'm curious what others will say.
> 
> That's so nice with the doughnuts...I never think of things like that  Think it can be 2ish to see this kind of opportunity (even though I fail at it), though I suppose any type could and I also see a lot of 9s being thoughtful in this way. Do think I see a 9 fix.Maybe social instinct too?
> @Signorina Misteriosa any thoughts?


Think doughnut thing is a bit 2, I mean can be any type, but I can imagine certain kind of 2, maybe with So or syn flow being very in touch with people's needs in that sense?
I also tend to fail at remembering things like that 


@music box I'd also say you seem more w1!


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> The way you have talked about liking guys, it's quite light-hearted, dry. I don't know how else to explain that impression. Plus I do see the SP and SO...you love talking about places, things, stories...I don't _feel _the SX. The SX obsession is wet.
> 
> (Perhaps we should move this to a typing thread or mistype revelation thread though)


I can explain the light-hearted by the fact that I'm terrified that people I know will stumble across this website so I try to keep a reasonable bubble of plausible denial) And I tend to talk about my feelings in a light-hearted and flippant way partly for the plausible deniability for various reasons, maybe just because I'm uncomfortable with confessions and the like

(actually, this gets me in trouble irl, things I take really seriously I talk about really lightly, worse irl because...it's real life, people either think I take things really flippantly or ...are just annoyed :tongue

Would agree it could be type-related but maybe not instinct-related?

Anyways, I'd agree with 'dry' in a way, though I'm not sure I understand your dry/wet differentiation...I'm definitely not like a rainforest though, I'm like a desert, I identify with fire, not water...but I don't think that is really anti-sx?

Again I'm not trying to be difficult, just explain how I see things, if I had to describe anything as 'wet' it would be sp I think, I think my fire/desert thing is maybe sp-last more than anything, arid and...water is life-giving and round and it helps things mix together and I feel pretty sharp-edged and acerbic and not muddy or gentle...I'm using a lot of words because I have trouble explaining, maybe pictures will help










Me

I mean...water does feel like a foreign element to me, but I'm not sure I'm conceptualizing it the way you are, for me water is heavy and peaceful and...sluggish, it's something that can drag you down, dampen...represents something like wholeness but I think...sp wholeness, not sx wholeness like you were talking about, more like roundness...

I know my understanding of myself based on elements is probably not ideal for typing purposes but this is what I understand most about myself...maybe it would even better to say that I'm more like bitter black coffee than coffee with milk, I think I lack that element of 'milk', it's...foreign for me, new for me.

The thing about my instincts is that...for instance my avatar and signature right now, obviously I like so, can relate but it also feels learned and it feels like play-acting or a game...it doesn't feel like my _instinct_...sp you know I have a mixed relationship with, think I confuse it with Si too but...it again feels like something I've been teaching myself, reminding myself to value it and specifically teaching myself to appreciate...eating, living, and all such things. 
(long rant, it's about sp eventually)
You know, I want to drink life to the lees, I want to wring everything of its value, I want to die without regret . . . to me, life is a great miracle and a precious gift, the world is a great garden which I have been invited to live in for a span, and I want to explore every inch of the garden, I want to enjoy every facet of the gift, I don't want to see a world of untravelled roads and unopened books behind me on my deathbed...I want to see a world that I squeezed every drop of life from (but is still pleasant for everyone else lol). And so it is paramount to me to learn to appreciate everything that I might, the things that come easily to me and those that do not. There are fruits that one does not need to unpeel...there are ones that one does...and there are ones with hard husks, that one must work hard at to discover the flavor. But it's important to me to do so.

I see my relationship to sp more in the third category...I don't think attending to self-pres matters was ever a natural priority but it's something I started to teach myself as a teen...teaching myself to appreciate the flavour of food, for example (again, I never know where the line between sp and Si is...). I never liked chocolate or understood why people wanted to eat it, think I assumed I was somehow superior, not tied to this strange weakness...but then I humbled myself a little lol and thought that perhaps I was missing out on something, one night in the middle of the night I had a little box of chocolates and I took one chocolate out of the box and ate it slowly, in the dark, concentrating only on the flavour, and it blew my mind haha, it was so different concentrating on something and realizing how it really tasted...then I think I became aware of food, started trying to pay attention...there was a passage in the Old Man and the Sea about how people do not really understand or think about what they're eating, how their food doesn't belong to them, and that changed the way I thought about it too...and I became a fan of the show Frasier, in which the characters are connoisseurs of wine and cooking and I tried to develop my skills in these areas (because Niles :lovekitty and put things I ate under scrutiny, tried to find best x in my city. So now I would say I have an awareness of how things taste, and some interest in food, but sp-doms I know are so much more naturally tuned into these things, and not just flavor but other things like if they think the food is healthy or not, or how much it costs, things I can't keep track of...I still feel sp-last even though I've developed some sp-interests because they still feel like interests, not instincts, and it was hard to get to this point lol, feel like I've unlocked something.

And like...money...my mother pointed out the other day, I remembered once when I was 11 or something and found a dime and tried to take it into the school office in case someone wanted it back, she said like, "This just makes me realize what I've suspected...that you never had any idea of what money is actually worth...it was logical for you because you saw a dime and thought, "A dime, that's money, someone might want this!"...which is what you think about all money which is why you hardly have any left" :laughing:

And...it was _halfway through high school_ that I realized that there was a point to getting good grades, that you needed to go to college and get a job, I . . . thought we were there to learn 

I mean, it's not just slightly bad sp like sometimes not wearing a coat (though I never think of matching my clothes to the weather) or not liking to go through bills, it's _really bad sp_

And I think I associate it with the 'wetness'

So and sx are different stories but I've already written a lot more than I intended to so)


----------



## Rose for a Heart

--


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## 7rr7s

Immolate said:


> Would anyone really bother keeping the other 7 around?


Depends. They could have connections. Could be useful in business or in meeting certain kinds of people, or you might know someone they would hit it off with and you could introduce them. Say all you have in common with them is you are both into dogs for instance, well having them around means that if you or a friend are looking to buy a new dog you can call them up and see if they can help you and vice versa, if your friend is selling a dog, you can call them up and see if they're interested. 

That's probably more social instinct though, than sexual.


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## brightflashes

Immolate said:


> Would anyone really bother keeping the other 7 around?


I might for experiments.


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## Immolate

brightflashes said:


> I might for experiments.


Yes, I like this response.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Chesire Tower said:


> Thanks you; could you please elaborate on why you see me as an SO/SX over an SX/SO? Thanks. ^_^


I'm not great at explaining this sort of thing, but something about the way you engage, and how you present yourself - like your avatar and signature etc., feels like you are sort of broadcasting a social identity, like wanting to show that you are aligned with certain things, and there seems to be an irony/sense of humor to show that you are "in the know" of something if that makes sense, while I don't see you trying as hard to broadcast in an sx-y way. (Also was thinking it might make sense for an sosx 5 to look something like you, but that's not a very in-depth idea.)


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## Immolate

@Distortions What do my choices say to you?


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## Dangerose

.


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## Krayfish

For those with relatively weak heart fixes... How does one/did you figure out their/your heart fix? I've been trying for a while now and I don't seem to be getting very far. Recent investigation gave me 3w4, but I'm still kind of skeptical.


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## owlet

@*Cheshire Tower* what do you think of these?



> *Self Preservation Instinct
> *People who have this as their dominant instinct are preoccupied with the safety, comfort, health, energy, and well-being of the physical body. In a word, they are concerned with having enough _resources_ to meet life’s demands. Identification with the body is a fundamental focus for all humans, and we need our body to function well in order to be alive and active in the world. Most people in contemporary cultures have not faced life or death “survival” in the strictest sense; thus, Self-Preservation types tend to be concerned with food, money, housing, medical matters, and physical comfort. Moreover, those primarily focused on self-preservation, by extension, are usually interested in maintaining these resources for others as well. Their focus of attention naturally goes towards things related to these areas such as clothes, temperature, shopping, decorating, and the like, particularly if they are not satisfied in these areas or have a feeling of deficiency due to their childhoods. Self-Pres types tend to be more grounded, practical, serious, and introverted than the other two instinctual types. They might have active social lives and a satisfying intimate relationship, but if they feel that their self-preservation needs are not being met, still tend not to be happy or at ease. In their primary relationships, these people are “nesters”—they seek domestic tranquility and security with a stable, reliable partner.
> 
> 
> *Sexual (aka “Attraction”) Instinct*
> Many people originally identify themselves as this type because they have learned that the Sexual types are interested in “one-on-one relationships.” But all three instinctual types are interested in one-on-one relationships for different reasons, so this does not distinguish them. The key element in Sexual types is an intense drive for stimulation and a constant awareness of the “chemistry” between themselves and others. Sexual types are immediately aware of the attraction, or lack thereof, between themselves and other people. Further, while the basis of this instinct is related to sexuality, it is not necessarily about people engaging in the sexual act. There are many people that we are excited to be around for reasons of personal chemistry that we have no intention of “getting involved with.” Nonetheless, we might be aware that we feel stimulated in certain people’s company and less so in others. The sexual type is constantly moving toward that sense of intense stimulation and juicy energy in their relationships and in their activities. They are the most “energized” of the three instinctual types, and tend to be more aggressive, competitive, charged, and emotionally intense than the Self-Pres or Social types. Sexual types need to have intense energetic charge in their primary relationships or else they remain unsatisfied. They enjoy being intensely involved—even merged—with others, and can become disenchanted with partners who are unable to meet their need for intense energetic union. Losing yourself in a “fusion” of being is the ideal here, and Sexual types are always looking for this state with others and with stimulating objects in their world.
> *
> 
> Social (aka “Adaptive”) Instinct*
> Just as many people tend to misidentify themselves as Sexual types because they want one-on-one relationships, many people fail to recognize themselves as Social types because they get the (false) idea that this means always being involved in groups, meetings, and parties. If Self-Preservation types are interested in adjusting the environment to make themselves more secure and comfortable, Social types _adapt themselves to serve the needs of the social situation_ they find themselves in. Thus, Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek _personal connection_: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types. In their primary relationships, they seek partners with whom they can share social activities, wanting their intimates to get involved in projects and events with them. Paradoxically, they actually tend to avoid long periods of exclusive intimacy and quiet solitude, seeing both as potentially limiting. Social types lose their sense of identity and meaning when they are not involved with others in activities that transcend their individual interests.


Source.


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## navi__x3

I'm not a 3w2, I'm not a 2w3

I'm a 9w1 :bored:

A healthy 9w1, though. (Explains why I primarily relate to 3 and 2w3 lately)


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## Dangerose

navi__x3 said:


> I'm not a 3w2, I'm not a 2w3
> 
> I'm a 9w1 :bored:
> 
> A healthy 9w1, though. (Explains why I primarily relate to 3 and 2w3 lately)


I'm curious, why?)


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## Dangerose

And am I a 9w1?
(All may answer)


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## Kintsugi

brightflashes said:


> What theoretical model/models do you prefer to use with your clients? Is there a certain approach to psychology (assuming you're a counselor) that appeals to you the most? I'm not trying to distract from the original question. It's just that I know a lot of counselors and I think your answers might help me make up my mind. : )


For me, every model is just another tool in my arsenal. I don't believe that one way of viewing life is more superior to another. It's just a different fragment of perception and understanding.

Depending on the client the model will differ. I like to try and include as many aspects as I can. For instance, neurobiology, systems theory, and attachment theory are often useful, I find.

btw, I'm not a 5 , although I might sound like one, lol.


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## Kintsugi

I should also talk about the fact that I have a dissociative organisation of personality, which is quite common for people with history of trauma. In simple terms, in means that I don't have a "cohesive" understanding of my sense of self, and that there are parts of me that feel foreign, and "not me". 

This is where, imo, typology falls short, because it does not take into account this phenomena. In fact, current theorists are suggesting that "multiplicity" is the norm, and what causes "dysfunction" is the split and distance between the parts that make a whole...if that makes sense. 

Typlogy operates on the assumption that a "whole" exists, and is the norm. But, if this is not the case, then how do we conceptualise these ideas?


----------



## navi__x3

The Night's Queen said:


> I'm curious, why?)


Well, to put it lightly; I'm such a 9 that I didn't realize I was a 9 until I actually took the time to read the description... LOL. I'm still not 100% sure--but that's sort of a 9 thing. To be very unsure about type (and a lot of things). At least I watched a video and that's what they said about 9's.

I'm still _definitely_ a 2w3 at least for a fix. That is 100% for sure. I relate to the self-preservation 2 description too much to be otherwise.

The points that swayed me were:
A) 9's mistype as 2's but 2's don't mistype as 9's. I watched a video that mentioned 9's are most likely to be unsure of their enneagram because they can relate to bits and pieces of multiple types. 
B) This description of a relationship between an 8 and a 9. (My fiance and I) (So. Spot. On... Except the part about 8's wanting to do fun things because I'm usually the one who wants to do things xD)
C) 9's in growth resemble 3's. I feel most like a 3 now, but I consider myself to be very healthy and balanced and I wasn't always like this. Although I still feel like a 2w3 or 3ish I never felt 100% sure I related to purely being driven by power or attachment. They also resemble 6's when they're stressed. I don't know if I'm necessarily like that.

Whether you are a 9w1 or not, possibly! Like I said or heard, 9's are the most likely to be most confused about what type they are :laughing: if that makes sense. 

This video kinda helped me and it might help you: 



But before you watch it, she mentions in the beginning an indicator to tell whether you are 9 or 2, something about reactions to going to a restaurant they didn't want to go to.. I don't think it is an accurate indicator because I related to her initial example of 2. I still relate to a lot of points of both but then again apparently 9's are likely to do that.

I don't know. Enneagram could be a bunch of bologna.  And I could be wrong but whatever :laughing:


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Kintsugi said:


> I should also talk about the fact that I have a dissociative organisation of personality, which is quite common for people with history of trauma. In simple terms, in means that I don't have a "cohesive" understanding of my sense of self, and that there are parts of me that feel foreign, and "not me".


I haven't been following the conversation but if you are okay with it, can I ask you more about this? For instance, how does it manifest? Is it like DID, and how are you aware of those other parts?


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## Kintsugi

Rose for a Heart said:


> I haven't been following the conversation but if you are okay with it, can I ask you more about this? For instance, how does it manifest? Is it like DID, and how are you aware of those other parts?


You ask whatever you want. 

To clarify, I have not been diagnosed with DID, but I have been 'labelled" as suffering from DDNOS, which may have changed it's name recently to OSDD-1 (I think). I want to get across that these labels don't mean a lot to me. What matters is the fact that I struggle with trauma-related dissociation, and this is "model" i use to try and help myself (if that makes sense!)

I do not experience dissociative amnesia in the way that those that have been diagnosed with DID do. I am quite aware of things that occur, it's just that different parts of me are in the "drivers seat", and they call the shots.

does that make sense (I can try and explain further)


----------



## Dangerose

.


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## Dangerose

.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

brightflashes said:


> I might for experiments.


You can experiment on anyone and everyone if you are creative enough.

Also, @drmiller did you answer my question? What about my signature screams sx to you?

EDIT: Why won't it tag drmiller? Am I mispelling his name, or did he change it? -_-


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Kintsugi said:


> I should also talk about the fact that I have a dissociative organisation of personality, which is quite common for people with history of trauma. In simple terms, in means that I don't have a "cohesive" understanding of my sense of self, and that there are parts of me that feel foreign, and "not me".
> 
> This is where, imo, typology falls short, because it does not take into account this phenomena. In fact, current theorists are suggesting that "multiplicity" is the norm, and what causes "dysfunction" is the split and distance between the parts that make a whole...if that makes sense.
> 
> Typlogy operates on the assumption that a "whole" exists, and is the norm. But, if this is not the case, then how do we conceptualise these ideas?


Doesn't *everyone* have parts of themselves that feel foreign???? *shocked* O_O

I don't think that anyone is as simple as any one type. Maybe this is why. I haven't looked much into multiplicity. I have noticed in myself that I have "modes", if you will. I act very differently in some situations than I do in others, so much so that the baseline can be really blurry for others to see. Maybe this *is* the multiplicity.



Kintsugi said:


> For me, every model is just another tool in my arsenal. I don't believe that one way of viewing life is more superior to another. It's just a different fragment of perception and understanding.
> 
> Depending on the client the model will differ. I like to try and include as many aspects as I can. For instance, neurobiology, systems theory, and attachment theory are often useful, I find.
> 
> btw, I'm not a 5 , although I might sound like one, lol.


I like you. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks every model and every perspective has its own meaning and its own place in the grand scheme of things. Or whatever you wanna call the conglomerate entity of all views together.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Kintsugi said:


> You ask whatever you want.
> 
> To clarify, I have not been diagnosed with DID, but I have been 'labelled" as suffering from DDNOS, which may have changed it's name recently to OSDD-1 (I think). I want to get across that these labels don't mean a lot to me. What matters is the fact that I struggle with trauma-related dissociation, and this is "model" i use to try and help myself (if that makes sense!)
> 
> I do not experience dissociative amnesia in the way that those that have been diagnosed with DID do. I am quite aware of things that occur, it's just that different parts of me are in the "drivers seat", and they call the shots.
> 
> does that make sense (I can try and explain further)


So you are a different persona in different situations, but not a different personality. Yes?

In case that confuses anyone:

per·so·na
noun

the aspect of someone's character that is *presented to or perceived by others*


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## Rose for a Heart

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Doesn't *everyone* have parts of themselves that feel foreign???? *shocked* O_O
> 
> I don't think that anyone is as simple as any one type. Maybe this is why. I haven't looked much into multiplicity. I have noticed in myself that I have "modes", if you will. I act very differently in some situations than I do in others, so much so that the baseline can be really blurry for others to see. Maybe this *is* the multiplicity.


She has a psychiatric condition, *everyone *doesn't. Yeah, I can relate to having different aspects of yourself in you, but what she is going through should not be undermined. Sorry if I sound rude or something, just wanted to point that out. People can have a tendency to be like "oh but no you're not so special, you're not really struggling, everyone feels that way." But they don't have a mental illness.


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## Immolate

Rose for a Heart said:


> She has a psychiatric condition, *everyone *doesn't. Yeah, I can relate to having different aspects of yourself in you, but what she is going through should not be undermined. Sorry if I sound rude or something, just wanted to point that out. People can have a tendency to be like "oh but no you're not so special, you're not really struggling, everyone feels that way." But they don't have a mental illness.


I'd like to believe his comment came from a place of misunderstanding.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Rose for a Heart said:


> She has a psychiatric condition, *everyone *doesn't. Yeah, I can relate to having different aspects of yourself in you, but what she is going through should not be undermined. Sorry if I sound rude or something, just wanted to point that out. People can have a tendency to be like "oh but no you're not so special, you're not really struggling, everyone feels that way." But they don't have a mental illness.


If anything, my being shocked that everyone doesn't feel that way should indicate that I do feel that way, hence being surprised.

Do NOT assume that I am saying "you are not special" just because I didn't realize that a given thing is unusual when in fact it is. It is called a conversation, and an exchange of information. Don't react like I'm every person that ever devalued your struggles. My comment has no ill intent, no undermining, and is not directed at you nor at every person with a struggle.


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## Paradigm

navi__x3 said:


> I don't know. Enneagram could be a bunch of bologna.


I've said this elsewhere for sure, dunno if I said it here, and was talking about it in chat a while ago...

Enneagram _is_ bologna. It's not real. It's a framework made by people and subject to whims and misinterpretation. At the most generous of interpretations, it's a niche tool useful in very rare situations.

To continue the tool metaphor... Even if it is a made up tool, that doesn't preclude that it's useful. Some can use it to gather perspective (what that perspective is varies greatly), and that perspective can be a great beginning! It doesn't mean it's a tool for everything, nor that it should never be used. It doesn't mean that it's not a "dangerous" tool, either; I don't think it should be used lightly, even though I believe that it should be used minimally. (Metaphor: scissor injuries are rare but don't run with scissors.)

Just how I see it. I tend to feel like if you can't use the Enneagram in moderation, you probably shouldn't use it. Which may not be applicable to you specifically, Navi, but it's applicable to _a lot_ of members, possibly even the majority.


----------



## navi__x3

Paradigm said:


> I've said this elsewhere for sure, dunno if I said it here, and was talking about it in chat a while ago...
> 
> Enneagram _is_ bologna. It's not real. It's a framework made by people and subject to whims and misinterpretation. At the most generous of interpretations, it's a niche tool useful in very rare situations.
> 
> To continue the tool metaphor... Even if it is a made up tool, that doesn't preclude that it's useful. Some can use it to gather perspective (what that perspective is varies greatly), and that perspective can be a great beginning! It doesn't mean it's a tool for everything, nor that it should never be used. It doesn't mean that it's not a "dangerous" tool, either; I don't think it should be used lightly, even though I believe that it should be used minimally. (Metaphor: scissor injuries are rare but don't run with scissors.)
> 
> Just how I see it. I tend to feel like if you can't use the Enneagram in moderation, you probably shouldn't use it. Which may not be applicable to you specifically, Navi, but it's applicable to _a lot_ of members, possibly even the majority.


Haha indeed, I do agree and understand where you are coming from. That is why I am here, to continue my path of growth.

I will say the manifestation of that statement came completely from my weird humor's interpretation of my own lack of understaning of enneagram and how unsure I was of my post in general. I didn't want @The Night's Queen to see my post as credible (I don't think you think I am and I don't blame you :laughing: ) I suppose that's just how my brain portrayed my thoughts. I do see enneagram and MBTI as useful tools (I often post about my work on balancing my Te) and hope I don't come off as otherwise! Especially since that is _exactly_ why I'm here.


----------



## Dangerose

navi__x3 said:


> Haha indeed, I do agree and understand where you are coming from. That is why I am here, to continue my path of growth.
> 
> I will say the manifestation of that statement came completely from my weird humor's interpretation of my own lack of understaning of enneagram and how unsure I was of my post in general. I didn't want @The Night's Queen to see my post as credible (I don't think you think I am and I don't blame you :laughing: ) I suppose that's just how my brain portrayed my thoughts. I do see enneagram and MBTI as useful tools (I often post about my work on balancing my Te) and hope I don't come off as otherwise!


No, wait, what? 
Do see you as credible, assuming I know what you mean by that, but I get what you were trying to achieve with that post, made sense))


----------



## navi__x3

The Night's Queen said:


> No, wait, what?
> Do see you as credible, assuming I know what you mean by that, but I get what you were trying to achieve with that post, made sense))


No that's exactly it I don't want you to see me as a credible source for whether you are a 9w1 or not, because I was so unsure myself. If that makes sense.


----------



## Dangerose

navi__x3 said:


> No that's exactly it I don't want you to see me as a credible source for whether you are a 9w1 or not, because I was so unsure myself. If that makes sense.


I mean - but your input is still valuable, don't know if anyone in Enneagram is a 'credible' source or not, it's . . . what it is

But ok we're on the same page now)


----------



## Vive

Interested in comments on my typing. 
Because I'm bored, but also because would like to see a perspective different from my own.


----------



## Dangerose

curious if I can post here, getting database error on other thread
@Navi__23 we're good)))) no worries, just slight misunderstanding)))


----------



## Vive

Interested in comments on my typing.
Because I'm bored, but also because would like to see a perspective different from my own. 
_(Posted this yesterday, but it seems the post has disappeared.)_


----------



## Vive

Interested in comments on my typing.
Because I'm bored, but also because would like to see a perspective different from my own. 
_(Posted it yesterday, but it doesn't display for some reason) _


----------



## Handsome Dyke

Kintsugi said:


> In fact, current theorists are suggesting that "multiplicity" is the norm, and what causes "dysfunction" is the split and distance between the parts that make a whole...if that makes sense.


That seems contradictory. How would anyone recognize the multiplicity without some sort of split or distance to distinguish the different parts?


----------



## Paradigm

Benty Fagatronicus said:


> That seems contradictory. How would anyone recognize the multiplicity without some sort of split or distance to distinguish the different parts?


For me, it's not like I feel like different people, but now that certain memories and moods are dominant from day to day. So one day I may feel very tolerant, but tomorrow I may feel intolerant - this happens a lot to me. Idk if that's what the concept is supposed to mean but I relate to it in a way. My moods can vary in extremes.

They're not mood swings either, by the way. I've never had mood swings. It's more like rapid changes in perception.

Edit: I'm not diagnosed with anything beyond depression and ADD. I have had periods of derealization but they've been relatively short and I think linked to depression. Bipolar and its related diagnoses sound nothing like me, as well.


----------



## Dangerose

.


----------



## Dangerose

.


----------



## Paradigm

Eh, I feel dumb. I just realized after several years that a close friend is probably 2w3, variant pending. That 8 connection makes way too much sense.


----------



## Stellafera

Paradigm said:


> For me, it's not like I feel like different people, but now that certain memories and moods are dominant from day to day. So one day I may feel very tolerant, but tomorrow I may feel intolerant - this happens a lot to me. Idk if that's what the concept is supposed to mean but I relate to it in a way. My moods can vary in extremes.
> 
> They're not mood swings either, by the way. I've never had mood swings. It's more like rapid changes in perception.


Makes sense to me, same happens to me once in a while too. Lots of times it's triggered by low sleep; I get way more negative about my life once I go below about 6 1/2 hours. Environmental factors like if my social life is going poorly, if I failed someone (even if I solved five other people's problems that day), etc.

On a very major level, such behavior might be linked to trauma, but my outlook on things changes all the time and that's a healthy process. One common thread in therapy for many mental illnesses is the realization that _you are not your thoughts_. It's all brain chemicals anyways.


----------



## Paradigm

Stellafera said:


> Makes sense to me, same happens to me once in a while too. Lots of times it's triggered by low sleep; I get way more negative about my life once I go below about 6 1/2 hours. Environmental factors like if my social life is going poorly, if I failed someone (even if I solved five other people's problems that day), etc.
> 
> On a very major level, such behavior might be linked to trauma, but my outlook on things changes all the time and that's a healthy process. One common thread in therapy for many mental illnesses is the realization that _you are not your thoughts_. It's all brain chemicals anyways.


It's not really related to physical state for me. I mean, it can be, like I'm grumpy just l because I haven't eaten, or I got some pain, but that's not the kind of shift in perception I mean. It's more like... I'm a series of books and the book I'm "reading" changes, potentially by the day.

Whether or not I have some sort of trauma can be debatable. I have a lot of symptoms of Complex PTSD, but I feel like my trauma (basically social isolation and neglect) are so pale in comparison to "real trauma." My family life was relatively ideal, but literally everything else (health, social, academic, etc) sucked massively.

Honestly, the idea that I'm "not my thoughts" scares me a little. I'm scientific ish so I know it's all hormones and shit, but I can't imagine how else to define myself as a person. ("I think, therefore I am" comes to mind.) Is that just for the mentally ill, or can everyone apply it to themselves? And what are you if not your thoughts (which, btw, I take as "you are not your consciousness" which is even more terrifying!)?

Edit: I'm aware and fully behind the idea that your thoughts/emotions can lie to you, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean.


----------



## Kintsugi

@*Lord Fenix Wulfheart*

Sorry, I don't come on PerC often (only when I am in certain moods!)

I just want to say that what you said about multiplicity is very interesting and I agree! In fact, a whole new body of research is emerging from the psychological world that studies this....it's exciting! I personally believe that multiplicity is normal, but rigidity between the divisions of self can lead to problems.

EDIT: Oh my goodness, I think I just repeated what I said earlier - I'm sorry! I have terrible memory and big blanks between things. Sorry!


----------



## Kintsugi

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> So you are a different persona in different situations, but not a different personality. Yes?
> 
> In case that confuses anyone:
> 
> per·so·na
> noun
> 
> the aspect of someone's character that is *presented to or perceived by others*


Sorry for being scattered!

No, it's not a different persona, it's actually a split-off part of personality/identity. To try and explain.....

The human mind is pretty awesome. With dissociation, when we experience a traumatic event that we are unable to integrate, the mind "splits" off that memory, and in some cases it can lead to the formation of a separate personality. This dynamic usually happens when the trauma is experienced at a young age, when the brain has not fully formed (i.e. the right hemisphere is more developed and active than the left in the first 18 months of life).


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Kintsugi said:


> Sorry for being scattered!
> 
> No, it's not a different persona, it's actually a split-off part of personality/identity. To try and explain.....
> 
> The human mind is pretty awesome. With dissociation, when we experience a traumatic event that we are unable to integrate, the mind "splits" off that memory, and in some cases it can lead to the formation of a separate personality. This dynamic usually happens when the trauma is experienced at a young age, when the brain has not fully formed (i.e. the right hemisphere is more developed and active than the left in the first 18 months of life).


NOTE: Don't worry, I am pretty good about adapting to these things. It may have been awhile but a single bit of context - like I pulled below" lets me resume as though we never stopped. Take your time.

This is what you had said earlier: "I do not experience dissociative amnesia in the way that those that have been diagnosed with DID do. I am quite aware of things that occur, it's just that different parts of me are in the "drivers seat", and they call the shots."

So...I am confused. If you are aware that a part of you is presenting....wouldn't that have to be a persona? It is what is presented to others. So...if I am understanding aright...it must be MORE than a persona in order for these two statements to both be true. However, if you do not suffer from DID, it is not a "full" personality which is totally separated. So you have some other thing, something I am not familiar with.

Lessee, for this to work...it would need to be like something else...oooh, sleep paralysis. Being completely conscious but also completely unable to control your body no matter what you do. So...a splinter persona which is in control that you cannot take control of? Aha! You have multiples which are concurrently active! One is in control of most functions, but the other(s) are aware without being in control! Therefore you have an active persona, sure, but the persona is the representation of just one multiple while other multiples are also active but not presented, meaning the other multiples are not personas but rather personalities - or at least splinter-personalities (Is that what it is called? I do not mean to offend, I'm searching for vocabulary I might lack)!

*triumphant look*

Did I understand right?


----------



## Stellafera

Paradigm said:


> Honestly, the idea that I'm "not my thoughts" scares me a little. I'm scientific ish so I know it's all hormones and shit, but I can't imagine how else to define myself as a person. ("I think, therefore I am" comes to mind.) Is that just for the mentally ill, or can everyone apply it to themselves? And what are you if not your thoughts (which, btw, I take as "you are not your consciousness" which is even more terrifying!)?
> 
> Edit: I'm aware and fully behind the idea that your thoughts/emotions can lie to you, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean.


If the idea is taken on face value it's kind of terrifying, yeah. The advice has more to do with recognizing that one's thoughts can be distorted and affected by environmental factors than "everything you think is a lie". When you catch yourself in negative thoughts, compare your reaction to the actual importance of its causes, etc. For instance, a depressed person might think that they've never been happy, but if they step away from what their mind is telling them and look at the facts, they might see that they _have_ been happy before and that their current state of mind is distorting their perception of events. Stuff like "I'm anxious but I know that it is not necessary for me to be, so _I will power through that emotion_" falls into the same category. Thus, the advice of "you are not your thoughts" mostly means "be self-aware about your own emotions". 

_(Note, not a psychologist nor have I experienced clinical depression. My exposure to the concepts I'm describing here mostly comes through a mix of my experiences with ADHD and from other things I have read online. I take medication for my disorder. While my core values and personality aren't different on and off the medicine, I know from first-hand experience that transient qualities like my own impulse control and clarity of thought can be influenced by outside factors.)_

On the PTSD thing... I mean, if you have the symptoms of Complex PTSD, whatever you've gone through has obviously had some sort of negative effect on you. We don't get to choose how much certain things affect us (at least not more than what we can control with the self-monitoring mentioned above). We just have to deal with the results.

Err, to get slightly back on track for this thread... 

A lot of the same principles can apply when examining one's enneagram-related thought processes. Not as in "I'm a 5 so that must've been a 5 thought", but thinking, "Hm, the rationale I had for doing that reminds me of the type 5 description. Was that a good thing or a bad thing, and if the latter, can enneagram help me move beyond that perspective?". I know I'm a 6 because I've noticed that 6ish patterns often show up in my motivations. IMO, noticing your own intellectual patterns is both the ideal way of determining type and a useful skill in its own right.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Immolate
Sorry, struggling to come up with a good answer. :frustrating:


----------



## Immolate

Distortions said:


> @*Immolate*
> Sorry, struggling to come up with a good answer. :frustrating:


I imagine Spock and McGonagall don't typically inspire sx-y thoughts


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## Dangerose

Can anyone see 9 for me?

I'm suddenly realizing how...willfully apathetic I've been, and how small I feel in comparison to the world?

Been considering 1 pretty seriously because I think disintegration to 4 makes sense but long-term _serious_disintegration

Considering everything, I'm really confused

Here's a bunch of collages, not my favorite typing method but I'd appreciate comments (or just based on knowing me, just trying to give something to work with); really confused about type rn


* *










































































































































































































































































































These are all the ones I could find, there's quite a lot lol
Must say something))

Oops, too many images, the ones that are based on characters or specific types in the next post


----------



## Dangerose

Characters/types (still relate but made them with a more specific focus)


* *


----------



## daleks_exterminate

I'm here to mistype anyone that wishes to be mistyped!


----------



## Chesire Tower

daleks_exterminate said:


> I'm here to mistype anyone that wishes to be mistyped!


*raises hand


----------



## daleks_exterminate

Chesire Tower said:


> *raises hand


Your mistype is INTP 9w1 3w4 2w1. thanks for playing.


----------



## Chesire Tower

daleks_exterminate said:


> Your mistype is INTP 9w1 3w4 2w1. thanks for playing.


LOL but you can't have a double heart type in your tritype. You have to have 1 head type, 1 heart type and 1 gut type.


----------



## Krayfish

@Twist of Fate Looking briefly at some of your previous posts on this forum (mostly the type 2 venting page), I don't think your a 9. Your gut fix seems to me as 1 because I can see 4 influence. Still, since I'm no expert and only really know you from the forum I just looked at, what parts of the 9 description do you relate to and why?


----------



## Dangerose

Krayfish said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Twist of Fate</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> Looking briefly at some of your previous posts on this forum (mostly the type 2 venting page), I don't think your a 9. Your gut fix seems to me as 1 because I can see 4 influence. Still, since I'm no expert and only really know you from the forum I just looked at, what parts of the 9 description do you relate to and why?


Thanks)

I was in a bad mood last night and I'm not sure I can trace my train of thought, I guess I was...trying to think about my future and realizing that I am not prepared in any way to put in the effort necessary to . . . live . . . I think it's a combination of fear and real apathy or dejection, like maybe at one point in my life I would have had the energy to go all the way through with things but it wasn't rewarded enough times that now I don't even know how to put my whole being into something anymore, but . . . the most 9ish thing is that I find distractions from these things, I never think about like . . . how I need to make money or anything, but I feel like . . . whatever I do I'll be fooling people into thinking I care, hard to explain how much I relate to this quote:










Wrote this on the 2 confessions thread a few days ago:



> always feel like I'm ready for anything, have everything ready for my debutante ball but there's no debut, plus all the lyrics I'm constantly referencing lol:
> 
> _We know where the music's playing; let's go out and feel the night_
> _Take me out tonight because I want to see people and I want to see life_
> _I'm sitting of sitting around here trying to write this book; there's something happening somewhere, I just know there is_
> 
> Which feels 9ish?
> 
> This one too though and this even feels like an especially 2ish LDR song:
> 
> _Go out every night whenever I feel sad_
> _Riding round town drinking in the white noise_
> 
> Idk this is one of the songs I play when people are around hoping they'll suddenly understand my personality, all the lyrics somehow and the whole ambiance of the song
> 
> Even though the particulars are not accurate
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's 9ish too though?
> 
> And...idk, and I think this is different from you? *I feel like a person with a lot of energy, first time I've mentally used this metaphor but it's like there's a little ball of light inside that gives off energy and if I catch the energy at once and channel it into something productive (I don't mean 'useful', I mean positive or...controlled) then it's not a problem and even more will come, I can't run out of energy, but if I don't do anything with it, it stays inside and becomes dark and poisonous and destructive, and it has to come out somehow, usually it'll find the worst way possible (but after that, I'm fine)
> 
> Basically what you want is a balanced...expending as much energy as you produce, think one problem is that expending energy convinces me to generate even more, but the main problem is...no outlet, and any build-up even of still-positive energy is difficult to deal with especially since no one around me enjoys being alive *
> 
> But like today I feel great, feel like I've got a great chance to...oh, to reset...like there are just the first wisps of energy in me and it's not too late for them but it's so important to invest them immediately into something that I'll be able to keep putting energy into, not quick fixes, projects that will sustain me for a while


Energy thing might be 9 because there's something about 9 somewhere like . . . 'a 9 in motion will remain in motion, a 9 not in motion will remain not in motion'

And it's like . . . I always need some sort of _sustenance_, something that comes into my mind often is the part of the aria 'Addio del Passato' where the heroine sings "I am even without the love of Alfredo, the comfort and support of my tired soul - comfort! support!", just the 'conforto! sostegno...' part, 1:15






And..there are other things too, I feel like I'm always so disconnected from reality, and I don't realize it until I realize that reality has been tripping along without me at all, I never realize that there's something I'm meant to be doing, until everyone's already mad at me for having done nothing, I expect everything to be a communal effort or something, I can't imagine that people expect me to be a moving part on my own, I'm always working on improving myself but not things that mean anything to anyone else, and I can spend so much time doing nothing, like Sleeping Beauty thinking that some prince will come along and wake her up, bring her to life, relate to the 'Bring Me to Life' song a lot lol and I've seen that talked about as a 9 song and obviously Sleeping Beauty is a 9 archetype.

And idk, I can't really think clearly, I think there's more but I've already rambled on for long enough)

edit: something else, wrote a post about it I deleted a while back, some things I was saying to my mother a while back:



> I just feel frustrated on his behalf or something lol because I don't feel like that energy and sharpness he's putting out is being invested in something that comes back with a return for him, I mean of course studying well will help him in future life, but it's frustrating to see a student obviously wanting to grow and not really being given the...idk how I'd phrase it, you know what I mean though?
> 
> Something I remember about Mr Despain is that when I was interested in cells and I wanted a cell book he took that seriously
> Obviously I didn't become a scientist or something but it was nice to have an interest however transitory not brushed aside
> 
> And that's a reason I hope the newsletter works out, think it's nice if [student] can see his having an idea turning into something (plus, other students will get the opportunity to see something they do published)
> 
> Not projecting my life onto [student] haha, just I think that's one of the problems I had, I KNOW I had a lot of potential and a lot of talent, *but after a while of trying to go above and beyond and just being put back into the shoebox it starts to feel like your efforts are just self-defeating, then you start skipping the steps and going straight to self-defeat*


It's that . . . I relate to 1 but I feel like I'm in this constant cycle of self-defeat, I don't have the energy to be a 1 . . . or a 6 or 8 or 3 or I think even 2, I feel so small in comparison to the world like if I scream at the top of my lungs no one would even turn their heads, I remember once driving past a sign advertising 'cherries', it was such an optimistic sign, and I remember thinking how sad and wasteful that is, like who on earth stops anywhere out of their way to buy cherries? And I'm always trying to be a person who stops and buys cherries, or whatever it is, those things that are there but almost everyone walks past, but . . . it's difficult, and no one stops for me either, the world just doesn't care enough to go out of its way for anything.

edit: There's a lyric in a song, "If you sing loud and clear, someone stopping by will surely hear you" . . . think about it a lot to try to encourage myself lol but I'm not sure, I don't think it's true . . . not even I stop for singing.






And this . . . 'she's been quiet, lovely, and good', I hate that, I mean I like the lyrics haha but I guess I feel like the world or the people around me are always trying to dampen me, was thinking about these lyrics the other day like . . . idk that I've been quiet, lovely and good but all it does is makes people expect me to be quiet, lovely and good, shouldn't I have been rewarded for that already? (I know the answer is no, just trying to express the feeling). And I guess on some level I feel angry at the world for wanting that from me, but I also feel like I don't know how to sing anymore, the song even says 'she lost her voice', and...well, I don't think I have anything to offer anymore, maybe I did once but I don't know where it went, and maybe I was lying to myself the whole time.


----------



## a peach

Aah gosh it's been a while since I had last posted;; and so surprised to see changes in types, but I do honestly hope that you are all finding yourselves more and more with each passing day, and to never feel rushed or judged in your decisions! ♡ Thank you everyone for before, when listening to me when I was wondering if I was a 2w3~

I keep jumping back to enneagram 4 though, and it's what my closest ones tell me I am, when I've shown them descriptions of all the types. Maybe 4w3? 

And totally lost on MBTI, I've spent like the last seven years mistyping;; Almost considering paying "professionals" to type me. (Though part of me heavily believes it could all just be a scam.) Aah well. If anyone is reading, thank yu for reading! Have a pleasant day! ♡


----------



## Krayfish

@Twist of Fate Actually, perhaps 9 might fit for you as core type. My only problem would be typing you 927, as that would encompass the entirety of the positivity triad, and something about that seems off (I wish I could give you an explanation as to why but I'm not sure I can). I'd be curious to see other's interpretations of this.
Some of your references in relation to 9 did strike me as more 7, especially this:
"I feel like a person with a lot of energy, first time I've mentally used this metaphor but it's like there's a little ball of light inside that gives off energy and if I catch the energy at once and channel it into something productive (I don't mean 'useful', I mean positive or...controlled) then it's not a problem and even more will come, I can't run out of energy, but if I don't do anything with it, it stays inside and becomes dark and poisonous and destructive, and it has to come out somehow, usually it'll find the worst way possible (but after that, I'm fine)"


----------



## Dangerose

Krayfish said:


> @Twist of Fate Actually, perhaps 9 might fit for you as core type. My only problem would be typing you 927, as that would encompass the entirety of the positivity triad, and something about that seems off (I wish I could give you an explanation as to why but I'm not sure I can). I'd be curious to see other's interpretations of this.
> Some of your references in relation to 9 did strike me as more 7, especially this:
> "I feel like a person with a lot of energy, first time I've mentally used this metaphor but it's like there's a little ball of light inside that gives off energy and if I catch the energy at once and channel it into something productive (I don't mean 'useful', I mean positive or...controlled) then it's not a problem and even more will come, I can't run out of energy, but if I don't do anything with it, it stays inside and becomes dark and poisonous and destructive, and it has to come out somehow, usually it'll find the worst way possible (but after that, I'm fine)"


Thanks so much! :teapot:
I think I will hesitantly type at 9 for now, it is the 927 tritype, not sure how to change that though :laughing: But it's ok, I spend a lot of time reframing and lying to myself :laughing: See my sig quote)


----------



## ravioliravioli

I went from thinking I'm 5w4 to 4w5 to 9w1. I've already ruled out 5w4, because I've realized the whole detachment thing isn't me at all, but now I'm unsure if I'm a 4 or a 9. Like I'm not emotional enough to be a 4, but I'm not calm enough to be a 9. And I thought I decided on 4w5...what the hell...


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

why did you choose that avatar, @ledzeppelin? What appeals to you about it?


----------



## Krayfish

@daleks_exterminate if you feel like it I'd like to be mistyped

@Lord Fenix Wulfheart I read your thing and I think you are right about not being a 9, what you wrote sounds very 8. Still, I can see a little 9 influence (I guess more than 7 at least). Have you considered 8w9 as your gut fix?


----------



## tinyheart

4w5 or 5w4


----------



## Krayfish

Lady Kaizoku said:


> 4w5 or 5w4


You've always kind of vibed 4w5, but obviously since that isn't a good method of typing people, what portions of the 4 and 5 descriptions resonate with you? What portions don't?


----------



## tinyheart

Well...all of it. Only someone told me they saw me as 5w4 so now my perception of what I thought I was has been altered. And I can't let it rest..


----------



## Krayfish

Lady Kaizoku said:


> Well...all of it. Only someone told me they saw me as 5w4 so now my perception of what I thought I was has been altered. And I can't let it rest..


Interesting... I don't know if this will help, but here's a page that talks about differentiating between the two types https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-4-and-5


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Krayfish said:


> @daleks_exterminate if you feel like it I'd like to be mistyped
> 
> @Lord Fenix Wulfheart I read your thing and I think you are right about not being a 9, what you wrote sounds very 8. Still, I can see a little 9 influence (I guess more than 7 at least). Have you considered 8w9 as your gut fix?


I have, yes. I keep hesitating on it because no one else thinks it is viable or matches my expression. But dammit, none of you have seen me angry! *frustrated face*

...and none of you have seen the looks of fear on the faces of my family after I *have* been angry. I lose myself in anger if I let it happen. I don't control it well once it is boiling, but it takes an AWFUL lot to get it there. I'm pretty easygoing.

Thing is, I suspect a Five would be surprised by their own anger; the Head center is supposed to struggle to see the Heart center, right? I'm never surprised by my anger because I always know it is building. I'm aware of it, which is a strike against 5. I'd say I ride the wave of anger like an 8 and don't self judge afterwards as much as a 1. 

And then there is when I act in complete coldness and calculation to do things, like a calculating 5.

Also, 9s usually struggle to find their type. I have been consistently stuck between 1, 4, 5, 8, and 9 for my entire Enneagram journey....pretty much 4 or 5 most of the time. Do 9s often get stuck in that manner? I remember reading they "see bits of all the types in themselves". I don't see 2, 3, or 6 for me. I no longer see 9. I only see the downsides of 7 in me. So I'm like...halfway decisive, certain of some baseline things and then fumbling around for the last half of the puzzle.


----------



## goldthysanura

about MBTI, I am not sure what type I am, though it's probably either INFP or ISFP. interesting how after much reflection i am sure of my Enneagram core now but not MBTI. it seems that for different people one or the other is harder to pin down.


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## Krayfish

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I have, yes. I keep hesitating on it because no one else thinks it is viable or matches my expression. But dammit, none of you have seen me angry! *frustrated face*
> 
> ...and none of you have seen the looks of fear on the faces of my family after I *have* been angry. I lose myself in anger if I let it happen. I don't control it well once it is boiling, but it takes an AWFUL lot to get it there. I'm pretty easygoing.


 From what I've read about you, you seem to know yourself fairly well, so if you think you're a 8, chances are you probably are. I though a 9 wing might work for that reason in particular; It takes a lot to get you angry like that. A 9 wing might be why.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Thing is, I suspect a Five would be surprised by their own anger; the Head center is supposed to struggle to see the Heart center, right? I'm never surprised by my anger because I always know it is building. I'm aware of it, which is a strike against 5. I'd say I ride the wave of anger like an 8 and don't self judge afterwards as much as a 1.


 Not necessarily. While 5s (and head types) traditionally may be a bit detached from their feelings, this doesn't necessarily imply they are detached from the heart center. I think that would more depend on the strength of their fix.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Also, 9s usually struggle to find their type. I have been consistently stuck between 1, 4, 5, 8, and 9 for my entire Enneagram journey....pretty much 4 or 5 most of the time. Do 9s often get stuck in that manner? I remember reading they "see bits of all the types in themselves". I don't see 2, 3, or 6 for me. I no longer see 9. I only see the downsides of 7 in me. So I'm like...halfway decisive, certain of some baseline things and then fumbling around for the last half of the puzzle.


 I mean, assuming I was right typing myself as a 9, that sort of sounds like my scenario too. When I was confused about my core type, I consistently typed myself as a 6w5/5w6 with a 9w1/1w9 fix and nothing different. While a 9 description is suggestive of one who can see themselves in every type, for the longest time I couldn't see myself in the descriptions of 8, 7, 2, 3, or 4 (perhaps a bit of 4, but only the negitive parts). At one point, I didn't relate to _any_ of the descriptions. Enneagram 9 usually struggles to find their type because of a lack of strong identity (at least in core position), which seems to focus on situational examples where they can be placed in just about any personality type or the reverse where there is a focus on "completely fitting a type" and not doing so.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Hmm. I don't struggle with completely fitting a type so much as I struggle with wondering if I am wrong and fooling myself. I struggle with self-distrust. I look at the evidence and solidly place a single viable option, I can see it is correct. Then as soon as someone mentions I might be some other type, I start over from the beginning and completely redo the process and reach the same or very similar conclusions again. I place too much stock in outside opinion and not enough in mine, but I also have a solid inner identity that I can define to myself readily. In other words, I am seeking to match what I see inside to something that will make sense and logically fit the model and I don't readily trust my logic. With Enneagram, I know too little to narrow further than I have in this thread.

Matching it to a type model invariably leads me to the same bloc of types, and narrowing attempts always narrow to the same options. For Socionics, it always narrows to the same type (even though I change my display type for various reasons, my conclusion always circles around back to the same type). For Enneagram, I haven't put in the time to get typed more accurately than 4 or 5.

One thing I reeeeeeally struggle with in real life. I get tired of being right. I actively want for my intuition to be wrong. I want for this to go down: I tell someone what I think is the case, they tell me it isn't, and I accept that and then inquire why it is wrong and what is correct and why that is correct. I WANT to be wrong because I LOVE to learn. I get so tired of people saying "YES OMG YOU UNDERSTAND ME COMPLETELY" because it leaves my metaphorical knowledge boner dangling out there, cold and alone...I wanted you to engage in the conversation and teach me something I didn't already know, not feel flattered that I know you so well based on so little and excited that I actually listen and respond intelligently.

I actively want to be challenged. I want someone to come along and show me what I am missing. I don't have an orientation towards keeping the peace; I just don't like being at center stage when the action is rippling, not until I have a plan of action and a lot of resources to draw on. I would rather keep the peace LONG ENOUGH for me to get ready for what is coming down the wire. I ride the wave, make use of what comes to me, circle around, juke and jive and come out dodgin' lightnin'. I want to dance with the storms of fortune and laugh like a madman as the world spins crazily on its axes and everything shatters into a billion ephemeral pieces of ecstatic light. ....But I don't want to do it alone. I need backup. I know I can handle it alone, but I don't trust that I can do so. You know the difference? Knowing you are capable and being totally sure you can do the thing, but still being worried and distrusting you can do the thing, even after you have done it a hundred times? Maybe *this* time will be different....

I want a strong and confident partner that is confident in both themselves and in me, who believes in our relationship, who can erase my doubts and leave me with only one real conclusion: This is real, this is strong, this is forever. I fear that they are not going to stick around, not going to....fill what is missing.

Fill what is missing...

There's a thought. I need to do some reading.


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## star tripper

The head center struggles with gut more than heart as far as I know. That's why they mostly integrate to gut -- they're stuck in their own heads and need to become "present" and get in touch with their bodies.

I haven't thoroughly gone through your posts enough to form a solid opinion on type, but for the record, I don't think anything you've said excludes 9 per se. That's kind of the shitty thing about attachment types -- they're hard to exclude. And also, I'm of the unpopular opinion that 9 is the most diverse type so that might be influencing it. But like for example you say "9s see themselves in all the types but I've only been stuck on types 1, 4, 5, 8, and 9." -- that is more than half of the types lmao. My point being I guess that... just because you're not displaying 9 features to the extreme doesn't preclude you from 9.

I realize this post is probably not all that helpful. I suppose what I'm trying to communicate is... strip it all down to mechanics and see if it works. Because 9s (as an example) are tricky little fuckers.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

star tripper said:


> The head center struggles with gut more than heart as far as I know. That's why they mostly integrate to gut -- they're stuck in their own heads and need to become "present" and get in touch with their bodies.
> 
> I haven't thoroughly gone through your posts enough to form a solid opinion on type, but for the record, I don't think anything you've said excludes 9 per se. That's kind of the shitty thing about attachment types -- they're hard to exclude. And also, I'm of the unpopular opinion that 9 is the most diverse type so that might be influencing it. But like for example you say "9s see themselves in all the types but I've only been stuck on types 1, 4, 5, 8, and 9." -- that is more than half of the types lmao. My point being I guess that... just because you're not displaying 9 features to the extreme doesn't preclude you from 9.
> 
> I realize this post is probably not all that helpful. I suppose what I'm trying to communicate is... strip it all down to mechanics and see if it works. Because 9s (as an example) are tricky little fuckers.


While it is more than half the types....I've only actually ever TYPED at 5 and 4. I have considered 1 a fair bit, too, due to competency things I do a lot. The rest were fixes I was considering, not Core types. Including the fixes in the list of types I have considered without clarifying that was probably a bad idea in context lol.

If head struggles most with gut then I am misremembering what I read about the struggles of the centers. This is part of my problem. I need to actually sit down and read the full system and gather data, and then I need to reread enough so it stays remembered.

----Me wanting to be corrected and appreciating the feedback even if I don't necessarily accept what you have said as entirely accurate ^. What I was talking about above, my natural reaction is to second guess and fact check and check in with myself and re-evaluate and then present the proper conclusion based on the new information. IE recognizing I had a failure to provide context and so not changing the first conclusion and recognizing the failure to remember and accepting that I may be wrong on the second thing, and then immediately forming a new goal and altering my current course to pursue this new plan of action. This is a great example of how I receive input from others, and what I am expecting from it.

Its also why I am not focused on narrowing my Enneatype down right now. I just sort of hang around here, watch you guys, and occasionally comment on what I see and talk about how I relate. It isn't really...being typed that I expect from this thread, even though that's the thread's purpose. I'm just here to see and stir conversations while I deal with other stuff that is higher priority. -_-

I suppose my biggest problem with 9 is that I feel like it says very little about me, and what it does say is wrong. Compare that to 5, where most things sound right - including needing to acquire knowledge and minimizing needs, like how I keep stockpiling consumables in advance of needing them and find that my consumption of resources actually goes DOWN as my stockpile goes UP. The more I have the less I use each day. Its...comfortable, to have enough to be assured that I can turn my attention to studying (and forgetting to take care of my body with all the resources I bothered to ensure are available). Whereas if I don't have it I have to stop doing what I care about and go find ways to make sure the life needs are met. Its a chore to go outside the mind.

Compare to like, Seven; it is not appealing to me to go ride a rollercoaster at nine and then walk the entire mall at 10. Its exhausting. I don't feel like I'm gonna miss out, I feel like doing all that will ensure that nothing ever gets done and I shrivel up and fade away. 

My relationship with avarice says something. My relationship with identity says something. I don't think my relationship with 9's "I am OK" go with the flow says much. I'm very self-critical, and I reinforce my self-critique. Are 9s really so interested in proving they are wrong, playing the victim, proving that they have more to learn, and spreading their secret knowledge to the worthy?

If they are, if the things that I am fit 9, then maybe its me. I just can't see it. :/


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## Acadia

yo; 7w8? 7w6? 5w6? 5w4? for head center. 

pretty sure about the 8w7 in my stack, and either sx/sp or sx/so. 

I have pretty much no clue about heart center.


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## Paradigm

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> like how I keep stockpiling consumables in advance of needing them and find that my consumption of resources actually goes DOWN as my stockpile goes UP. The more I have the less I use each day. Its...comfortable, to have enough to be assured that I can turn my attention to studying (and forgetting to take care of my body with all the resources I bothered to ensure are available). Whereas if I don't have it I have to stop doing what I care about and go find ways to make sure the life needs are met. Its a chore to go outside the mind.


This reads more like SP + introversion, less 5. Maybe a little 5 but not _necessarily _core.



> Compare to like, Seven; it is not appealing to me to go ride a rollercoaster at nine and then walk the entire mall at 10. Its exhausting. I don't feel like I'm gonna miss out, I feel like doing all that will ensure that nothing ever gets done and I shrivel up and fade away.


That's not 7 at all, that's extroversion or a sense of adventure. 7 is partly about a fear of missing out (only a small part) but it's not at all about "going on rollercoasters" or "walking the mall." It's mostly about a fear of "being trapped," and a fear of being "in pain."


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Paradigm said:


> This reads more like SP + introversion, less 5. Maybe a little 5 but not _necessarily _core.
> 
> 
> That's not 7 at all, that's extroversion or a sense of adventure. 7 is partly about a fear of missing out (only a small part) but it's not at all about "going on rollercoasters" or "walking the mall." It's mostly about a fear of "being trapped," and a fear of being "in pain."


Fair enough, I suppose. I don't really know my instinctual stack. Earlier @Dr miller was telling me my signature seems SX but I didn't see an explanation as to why. Other than that, I know I am avoidant and I know that I really identified with the SO 5 description and with the SP and SX Four descriptions when I read Wisdom of the Enneagram. Other than that, haven't looked much into it and what I did look into I have since forgotten.

On 7. I thought that since 7 is afraid of being trapped, and avoids anxiety by avoiding thinking about their pain and avoiding being limited, that they pretty much would have to be extroverted.

And Seven *is* adventurous according to the only source I've read on them. This is my full knowledge of Seven:

"Type Seven Overview

We have named this personality type The Enthusiast because Sevens are enthusiastic about almost everything that catches their attention. *They approach life with curiosity, optimism, and a sense of adventure, like “kids in a candy store” who look at the world in wide-eyed, rapt anticipation of all the good things they are about to experience.* They are bold and vivacious, pursuing what they want in life with a cheerful determination. They have a quality best described by the Yiddish word “*chutzpah*”—a kind of brash “nerviness.”

Although Sevens are in the Thinking Center, this is not immediately apparent because they tend to be extremely practical and engaged in a multitude of projects at any given time. Their thinking is anticipatory: they foresee events and generate ideas “on the fly,” favoring activities that stimulate their minds—*which in turn generate more things to do and think about*. Sevens are not necessarily intellectual or studious by any standard definition, although they are often intelligent and can be widely read and highly verbal. *Their minds move rapidly from one idea to the next*, making Sevens gifted at brainstorming and synthesizing information. Sevens are exhilarated by the rush of ideas and by the pleasure of being spontaneous, preferring broad overviews and the excitement of the initial stages of the creative process to probing a single topic in depth."

I bolded some things that contributed to my earlier statements about how I view Seven.The source: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-7/


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## Paradigm

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> On 7. I thought that since 7 is afraid of being trapped, and avoids anxiety by avoiding thinking about their pain and avoiding being limited, that they pretty much would have to be extroverted.
> 
> And Seven *is* adventurous according to the only source I've read on them. This is my full knowledge of Seven:


I do have a different understanding of 7 than even most authors, and haven't yet found a 7 description that doesn't veer into attempting to describe behavior (though I suppose 90% of descriptions of any type do that, too). I don't think 7 = extroverted, as I think there's a ton of ways that avoiding being trapped and avoiding pain can be done and not all of them rely on the stereotypical idea of being extroverted.

Two 7s I know are self-described "introverts" (admittedly they are not, but that's moot), job-hop, are commitment-phobic, and throw themselves into their hobbies. None of that is necessarily social, and half of it doesn't even require leaving the house - but it does all fulfill the idea that if they busy themselves enough, they avoid their fears. And that's the real, albeit basic, idea behind being a 7.
(Edit: Need to put a disclaimer that I don't think the traits of "my" two 7s are key to being 7; I'm just listing things they share in common, not necessarily traits all 7s have.)

I've noticed a lot of extroverts conflate being shy and/or misanthropic as introversion, but that's a bit tangential. Not tangential is that I believe there's a lot of introverts who are 7, though I believe I posted here before about that (I can't quite remember).


----------



## navi__x3

After taking the time to read through all the enneagram types including wings (pretty 9 of me for not doing this in the first place :laughing, and observing/analyzing how I _honestly_ am I've *finally* come up with my accurate tritype. >

I'm definitely a 9w1 core type, I figured this out quite awhile ago. The more I learn about it the more accurate it seems to me, especially since I consider myself to be a balanced version of my type and definitely see the growth into 3. I've also read that the INFP 9 is the most likely to mistype as INFJ (which I did for so many years *sigh* i am an embarassment LOL) and is also likely to have balanced functions. I'm sure I've always had this in my fix at least. I'm so capable of remaining calm and clear headed during crisis which is a trait of 9's. I'm also very patient and I love that about myself ^_^ I think us 9's are a good addition to society in this crazy world....... o.o 

My head fix is 7w6, I originally typed myself as 7w8 fix specifically because I felt that I do have this aggressiveness, but it isn't from a wing 8. I probably should have read both descriptions before choosing one LOL. I'm more "escapist" than I am.. the other one (for lack of a better description.. or any description...) but where I did get my aggressiveness from brings me to my heart type...

I have been going back and forth on this but I'm 100% sure now I am a 3w2 for heart type and not 2w3. I think reading the Self Preservation 2 description threw me off--I related to the aspect of acting childish but after consideration I've realized I don't do it to get what I want... It's something that probably comes from being an INFP, being the youngest of my siblings, and maybe from being 10 years younger than my fiance? (I don't know how but my Ne took me here lol)

I have had a situation of conflict within the past couple weeks with a type 2, and I could tell they genuinely were upset that they could lose the relationship itself and were upset for "putting so much" into it so to speak (at least this was what they said).. whereas all I could think about doing was finishing my school work/and looking for better job opportunities as a source of comfort. Our conflict led us both to feelings of _shame_ (*shame bell*) and the 2 pushed and prodded the issue--focusing on the relationship itself, while I sought to just end the discussion, repress my shame and cover it up by achieving something for myself. I think that made it quite clear to me. I'm not heartless! I show a lot of love through my 9 :laughing: but I do seek to improve my life when I need comfort. The 397 tritype description fits me much better than 297 (although I know that's not the best indicator) 

Oh and we made up if it matters. :tongue:

Actually it explains why from age 21 I was happy to become a brand ambassador for different beer/liquor companies, giving up my nights and weekends to execute events all over the place even if it meant not seeing my friends. Actually all the other girls I've worked with were probably 3's too now that I think about it...

Kinda an interesting side note... I used to be a 4w5 core when I was younger. The 2 in stress codependency description describes my entire teenage life *sigh* lol.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Paradigm said:


> I do have a different understanding of 7 than even most authors, and haven't yet found a 7 description that doesn't veer into attempting to describe behavior (though I suppose 90% of descriptions of any type do that, too). I don't think 7 = extroverted, as I think there's a ton of ways that avoiding being trapped and avoiding pain can be done and not all of them rely on the stereotypical idea of being extroverted.
> 
> Two 7s I know are self-described "introverts" (admittedly they are not, but that's moot), job-hop, are commitment-phobic, and throw themselves into their hobbies. None of that is necessarily social, and half of it doesn't even require leaving the house - but it does all fulfill the idea that if they busy themselves enough, they avoid their fears. And that's the real, albeit basic, idea behind being a 7.
> (Edit: Need to put a disclaimer that I don't think the traits of "my" two 7s are key to being 7; I'm just listing things they share in common, not necessarily traits all 7s have.)
> 
> I've noticed a lot of extroverts conflate being shy and/or misanthropic as introversion, but that's a bit tangential. Not tangential is that I believe there's a lot of introverts who are 7, though I believe I posted here before about that (I can't quite remember).


I can't personally imagine a way to avoid pain and being trapped by keeping yourself busy, that will also seem introverted. If the pain that is being avoided is inside, then the inside is what is avoided. If being trapped is imposed from outside, then the attention is directed to the outside - you have to see it to avoid it.

From a purely cognitive standpoint, all of the issues that I see for the Seven type are arising from paying too much attention to what is going on outside and not enough to what is inside.

So the only way I could see an introverted Seven is if the person has a very low threshold for external stimulus as introverts do, and responds to that by continuously over-stimulating themselves anyway, pushing so that they do not have to feel pain or limits. That seems more 7w8, I guess. There would be much conflict of the self for such a person. I suspect that such things may point towards other explanations, too.

So could there be an introverted Seven? I guess, sure. I just can't picture it very well. :/


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## daleks_exterminate

Krayfish said:


> @daleks_exterminate if you feel like it I'd like to be mistyped
> 
> @Lord Fenix Wulfheart I read your thing and I think you are right about not being a 9, what you wrote sounds very 8. Still, I can see a little 9 influence (I guess more than 7 at least). Have you considered 8w9 as your gut fix?


Isfp 2w3


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## daleks_exterminate

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Someone mistype me. @daleks_exterminate wanna give it a shot?


Estp 8w7


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## Brains

@daleks_exterminate getting mistyped sounds fun. Gimme one!


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## Paradigm

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I can't personally imagine a way to avoid pain and being trapped by keeping yourself busy, that will also seem introverted. If the pain that is being avoided is inside, then the inside is what is avoided. If being trapped is imposed from outside, then the attention is directed to the outside - you have to see it to avoid it.
> 
> From a purely cognitive standpoint, all of the issues that I see for the Seven type are arising from paying too much attention to what is going on outside and not enough to what is inside.
> 
> So the only way I could see an introverted Seven is if the person has a very low threshold for external stimulus as introverts do, and responds to that by continuously over-stimulating themselves anyway, pushing so that they do not have to feel pain or limits. That seems more 7w8, I guess. There would be much conflict of the self for such a person. I suspect that such things may point towards other explanations, too.
> 
> So could there be an introverted Seven? I guess, sure. I just can't picture it very well. :/


Maybe you and I don't view intro/extroversion the same way. It's not like extroverts are always overstimulating themselves, and it's not like over-stimulation is a requirement for avoidance. Keeping busy isn't necessarily "stimulating," in my experience. It's just avoiding being in your head. Introversion certainly doesn't mean you're always in your head - though I'll grant you it often does mean a lower threshold of external tolerance.

So what I'm saying, I guess, is that in my view you're confusing the two concepts. I mean, in my opinion, _reading_ can fall into the realm of a way to avoid pain. Losing yourself in a fantasy world sound familiar? Or doing art, in private; it's a way to close your mind off to the worser parts. Researching something constantly, "analysis paralysis" could be another. These things are not traditionally "stimulating," but definitely can be a way to avoid thinking/feeling.


----------



## Acadia

Paradigm said:


> I do have a different understanding of 7 than even most authors, and haven't yet found a 7 description that doesn't veer into attempting to describe behavior (though I suppose 90% of descriptions of any type do that, too). I don't think 7 = extroverted, as I think there's a ton of ways that avoiding being trapped and avoiding pain can be done and not all of them rely on the stereotypical idea of being extroverted.
> 
> Two 7s I know are self-described "introverts" (admittedly they are not, but that's moot), job-hop, are commitment-phobic, and throw themselves into their hobbies. None of that is necessarily social, and half of it doesn't even require leaving the house - but it does all fulfill the idea that if they busy themselves enough, they avoid their fears. And that's the real, albeit basic, idea behind being a 7.
> (Edit: Need to put a disclaimer that I don't think the traits of "my" two 7s are key to being 7; I'm just listing things they share in common, not necessarily traits all 7s have.)
> 
> I've noticed a lot of extroverts conflate being shy and/or misanthropic as introversion, but that's a bit tangential. Not tangential is that I believe there's a lot of introverts who are 7, though I believe I posted here before about that (I can't quite remember).


I found this interesting. I've always identified with the 'adventure' and restlessness aspect of the 7, but less with the scattered aspect. I only fear commitment if it involves a lack of passion. Even so, I have trouble staying in one place for a long time -- unless I'm really dedicated. I'm in graduate school, and trying to get into veterinary school. I'm not afraid of that sort of commitment because I know it makes me happy -- but having my Master's degree and DVM will also allow me to write my own research and travel part of the year -- never get tied down. [also, by being a master of the field, I can be my own boss. that freedom appeals to me] I'm pretty confidently Fi-Se -- certainly wouldn't have pursued the sciences for fun -- so I find the relationship between 7 and introversion interesting. 

So I've felt disconnected from the description of the 7 lately. I scored as a 5 on the official test [not sure if that matters] and _do_ have trouble trusting people initially. The cp 6w5 description appeals to me and I'm known as a skeptic, but it doesn't seem quite right either. I pull away from people and withdraw when I'm insecure, not seek them out. affirmation makes me uncomfortable. I've followed a fairly linear academic path, despite taking off two years to travel and work random jobs in the field. 

I'm pretty sure I have an 8w7 in my stack, though I don't think I lead with it. I posted earlier without realizing that this thread was more developed than people just tossing brief ideas back and forth, which (I think?) shows another 7ish tendency -- I didn't take the time out to actually read the most recent page. so yes, restless, fidgety, need to move around -- but I tend to withdraw, don't seek out others, keep more to myself. I can easily get stuck in my head. Occasionally known to physically run away from strong emotions and climb a tree to reflect. I've entertained ESFP and ESTP before, but I'm pretty sure my stack is like Se > Ni > Te. Something about dom-Se seems off in almost in the same way 7 does :/ 

I'd appreciate any thoughts you have!


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Paradigm said:


> Maybe you and I don't view intro/extroversion the same way. It's not like extroverts are always overstimulating themselves, and it's not like over-stimulation is a requirement for avoidance. Keeping busy isn't necessarily "stimulating," in my experience. It's just avoiding being in your head. Introversion certainly doesn't mean you're always in your head - though I'll grant you it often does mean a lower threshold of external tolerance.
> 
> So what I'm saying, I guess, is that in my view you're confusing the two concepts. I mean, in my opinion, _reading_ can fall into the realm of a way to avoid pain. Losing yourself in a fantasy world sound familiar? Or doing art, in private; it's a way to close your mind off to the worser parts. Researching something constantly, "analysis paralysis" could be another. These things are not traditionally "stimulating," but definitely can be a way to avoid thinking/feeling.


It isn't about whether extroverts always overstimulate and over-stimulating is how you avoid. That's not what I am saying at all. Neither am I saying that introverts are always in their head. As far as I am concerned, the difference between the two is solely the threshold for stimulation.

See, I do see "keeping busy" as stimulating. I see a person who is busy as a person who is doing lots of things. I don't see staying home and leisurely doing activities at your own pace as "busy". Busy, for me, carries implications of being rushed - aka, being overstimulated. So that would indicate that for me, the TYPE carries implications of being overstimulated by my standards, which means adherents to the type should have a higher stimulation threshold. That's vaguely the logic I was using. 

If just sitting around at home reading and thinking all the time can be 7 too, then I have no basis for thinking 7 is an introverted type and thus my original basis for rejecting that type for myself is invalid. I do spend an awful lot of time at home reading and gaming. Although I also spend a lot of time meditating, which by this logic is probably not 7 as much.


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## Dangerose

How are you guys defining 'stimulated' 'over-stimulated'?

The thing that first convinced me of being a cognitive extrovert was reading some article about how extroverts need more stimulation, introverts less. Don't know if that' true but I interpreted as:

I feel continually under-stimulated. I always want the environment to give me more. I'll sometimes play two songs at once, I'm not comfortable with much stillness, I'm always multi-tasking, changing scenery, looking for things to do (though if you look at my actual habits I do somewhat less than other people). I'm not an active person in the traditional sense, I'm not involved in many activities and I don't really like to do proper things without other people but I'm always seeking stimulation...

vs. my mother for example who, if we're at the mall, will become quickly 'overstimulated' by all the people, sights and sounds and smells etc and want to go home, it's very ununderstandable for me, that is my food...I feel like I'm drowning without the world giving me something. My challenge is to learn to be comfortable with silence, solitude, etc., and to give out to the environment as well.


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## havingadventures

Twist of Fate said:


> How are you guys defining 'stimulated' 'over-stimulated'?
> 
> The thing that first convinced me of being a cognitive extrovert was reading some article about how extroverts need more stimulation, introverts less. Don't know if that' true but I interpreted as:
> 
> I feel continually under-stimulated. I always want the environment to give me more. I'll sometimes play two songs at once, I'm not comfortable with much stillness, I'm always multi-tasking, changing scenery, looking for things to do (though if you look at my actual habits I do somewhat less than other people). I'm not an active person in the traditional sense, I'm not involved in many activities and I don't really like to do proper things without other people but I'm always seeking stimulation...
> 
> vs. my mother for example who, if we're at the mall, will become quickly 'overstimulated' by all the people, sights and sounds and smells etc and want to go home, it's very ununderstandable for me, that is my food...I feel like I'm drowning without the world giving me something. My challenge is to learn to be comfortable with silence, solitude, etc., and to give out to the environment as well.


I can identify with this. I'm an extrovert and I'm always up for a new challenge or new adventure  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## d e c a d e n t

@Twist of Fate
Funnily enough I relate, but at the same time I'm easily over-stimulated as well.

It's a curse lol, I keep wanting more and more, but then I quickly get overwhelmed when I get it. orz


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## Stellafera

Twist of Fate said:


> I feel continually under-stimulated. I always want the environment to give me more. I'll sometimes play two songs at once, I'm not comfortable with much stillness, I'm always multi-tasking, changing scenery, looking for things to do (though if you look at my actual habits I do somewhat less than other people). I'm not an active person in the traditional sense, I'm not involved in many activities and I don't really like to do proper things without other people but I'm always seeking stimulation..


Without context... this sounds more like ADHD than extroversion.  

I suppose the question is if you're satisfied with your need for stimulation. Me, without medicine I feel constantly bored in almost an existential way, like I'll constantly scuff my feet and look around and talk too much because I _never_ have enough stimulation. But being around other people also tires me out after a while, so I go home and scuff at the ground and make random noises or try to read stuff on the internet or whatever to try to entertain myself...


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## goldthysanura

I was sort of wondering whether I have a 7 fix...but earlier today, I was reading the blog of someone I know, and I thought--now THAT'S what a 7 looks like. He's taken on a bunch of different, unrelated projects (has just published a fantasy book, is doing photojournalism assignments, does PR stuff for some variety of organizations, and connects it all to social justice) and is relentlessly writing about them. All through his writing there is a bouncy, unflappable positivity, but underneath it I sense anxiety. It's similar when I've talked to him in person--it's like talking to the Duracell Bunny. The difference between me and him is how we respond to our anxiety. I respond to it by dwelling on it and either avoiding or fearfully (or "bravely") walking toward what I'm afraid of (6 fix). He responds to it by just doing, doing, doing, and going, going, going. I imagine that he feels more anxious when he's not moving than when he is. I also imagine that he's dealing with his anxieties by spreading them out, so that even if he isn't successful at everything, at least he will be successful at one thing. That may be why he takes on so many different types of projects. Honestly this seems like a pretty good way of doing things, but it's foreign enough to me that I can't see myself as having a 7 fix, despite the fact that I like going on adventures and having fun sometimes and I'm scattered. It is the relentless, almost blind positivity which I associate with type 7, which lies over anxiety and is a solution to it, and also the eclectic and fast-paced activity that results from that mind-set (I get down when I'm still, so I'd better keep moving). This mindset just seems inherently extroverted to me, or at least non-introspective--there's less time to mull over your inner workings when you're distracting yourself from pain via external activity. But that's not to say there could be no introverted 7s. Maybe they would go through all this activity but then wear themselves out more than an extrovert would and need a lot of time to recharge.


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## Paradigm

Honestly, I'm sick this week _and _under a deadline so I can't really get my thoughts together to respond properly. I'll be back sporadically (as usual but moreso).


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## Acadia

@goldthysanura 
also interesting. I am _relentless_ but also have a much more narrow focus. I relate to the spontaneity and to the constant doing -- I'm always biting off more than I can chew -- but less to the blind positivity. I'm fairly shrewd, withdrawn, and suspicious. I get anxious if I'm stuck in one place too long, but I'm quite single-minded on my career, on doing, and on entertaining myself in physical ways rather than ideas [if I need to get out of my head, I go for a hike, I skate, I play hockey or surf or play another intense high-energy sport]. This could be a difference between Se and Ne, though. I imagine an Se-7 would be fairly different than an Ne-7. I still can't shake the suspicion that underneath it all, I may still be a 5. Withdrawn as a child, but hyper and constantly moving as an adolescent -- and then withdrawn, skeptical, and observant as a young adult -- none of this seems consistent with any one of the head fixes -- except again, I wonder, cp 6w5. sx > so > sp, I think.. or sx > sp > so. I seem so-blind as a 20-something but not sure that was the case growing up.

- also, I don't think I dwell.. mostly react -- except when reflecting on my feelings which unfortunately takes a long time and involves me separating myself from the situation. volatile, not pleasant, until I can figure out what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it, and how to resolve it. only thing I can express easily is anger.. prob enough to have an 8 in my stack w/o it being dom


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## Acadia

Twist of Fate said:


> How are you guys defining 'stimulated' 'over-stimulated'?
> 
> The thing that first convinced me of being a cognitive extrovert was reading some article about how extroverts need more stimulation, introverts less. Don't know if that' true but I interpreted as:
> 
> I feel continually under-stimulated. I always want the environment to give me more. I'll sometimes play two songs at once, I'm not comfortable with much stillness, I'm always multi-tasking, changing scenery, looking for things to do (though if you look at my actual habits I do somewhat less than other people). I'm not an active person in the traditional sense, I'm not involved in many activities and I don't really like to do proper things without other people but I'm always seeking stimulation...
> 
> vs. my mother for example who, if we're at the mall, will become quickly 'overstimulated' by all the people, sights and sounds and smells etc and want to go home, it's very ununderstandable for me, that is my food...I feel like I'm drowning without the world giving me something. My challenge is to learn to be comfortable with silence, solitude, etc., and to give out to the environment as well.


hate the mall. it's too loud, too many people, not enough windows. I engage in the environment and love it -- love exploring it; being outside, watching, biking. love the noise and craziness of hockey games. _don't_ love the crowds.
I think it depends on the source it's coming from, and how much focus is required for a given situation. I'll study while listening to music, even upbeat music, but I need to turn off the air conditioner. It's too loud. I can't hear myself think, or the rest of what's around me. So I dislike enough stimulation that dampens my senses rather than encourages observation. 

another example; I'm a barista. I like being on bar during a rush [working quickly with my hands], hate taking orders and ordering coworkers around during a rush. in the clinic, I can juggle a dozen [wildlife] patients at once in a noisy small space. but I can't handle people asking me a million unrelated questions at the same time.


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## Dangerose

Some malls are cool and full of windows


















(most intelligent thing I have to say rn I'm so sick)


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Twist of Fate said:


> How are you guys defining 'stimulated' 'over-stimulated'?
> 
> The thing that first convinced me of being a cognitive extrovert was reading some article about how extroverts need more stimulation, introverts less. Don't know if that' true but I interpreted as:
> 
> I feel continually under-stimulated. I always want the environment to give me more. I'll sometimes play two songs at once, I'm not comfortable with much stillness, I'm always multi-tasking, changing scenery, looking for things to do (though if you look at my actual habits I do somewhat less than other people). I'm not an active person in the traditional sense, I'm not involved in many activities and I don't really like to do proper things without other people but I'm always seeking stimulation...
> 
> vs. my mother for example who, if we're at the mall, will become quickly 'overstimulated' by all the people, sights and sounds and smells etc and want to go home, it's very ununderstandable for me, that is my food...I feel like I'm drowning without the world giving me something. My challenge is to learn to be comfortable with silence, solitude, etc., and to give out to the environment as well.


What you just said is basically how I define cognitive extroversion. High need for stimulus.

That is the exact opposite of me. My room is silent at all times except for the click-clack of my keyboard and the sound of my fans. I mute my video games that don't have a story, and minimize all volume except voices down to 10% for story-based games. I rarely watch movies or listen to music, and when I do, I am either only watching the movie or pausing the movie whenever I decide to do something else. Trying to keep track of all that at once is tiring. I barely ever turn on the light in my room. I cannot stand concerts and even bars are a bit much for me sometimes - I have to be in the mood. Last few times I went I kept stepping outside to get away from the music so I could THINK. Karaoke? Use to be impossible, even though the idea is fun....its too loud. Took me a long time to be able to keep centered enough to even give it a good chance. Tried Karaoke again later, at home where I could control the volume, and freaking loved it.

I'm more of a meditative person. I've learned over the years to deal with the energetic outside world, but that's just it - I DEAL with it. It's a struggle. I cultivate an inner peace that is easy to disrupt if I let it be, but more and more over the years I learn how to make it harder to disrupt. My hibernating in my room is probably detrimental to this process.

Anyway. I can't see myself as an extrovert, and so I discounted 7 because as near as I can tell the type needs high stimulus. If that is not the case...then I need a more concrete reason to discount it.


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## goldthysanura

I wonder which "blindspot" I have. I could make cases for any of them, but I'm not sure whether the blindspot is the aspect of life which I want the least, or whether it's the aspect of life which I care about the most but feel the most insecurity around.

sp-last: I'm not very good at taking care of myself on a practical basis, because I minimize practical concerns in my life, telling myself that "things will work out." But at some point, I realize how much I have put off the things I needed to do to ensure stability and survival and comfort, and then I suddenly have to address them hastily. I do want comfort and stability and such, but I often don't try for them until I feel really uncomfortable.

so-last: Sometimes I say things which others might find weird or inappropriate, because even when I notice social norms I don't care about them all that much. Also, if people around me are talking about something I'm not interested in, I tend to tune out and go off into my own thoughts, rather than trying to maintain a foothold in the conversation. But at the same time, I secretly (maybe not so secretly) long to be accepted by "the group" while at the same time I often feel out of place and not seen for who I really am in a group context. And so in group situations, I often get frustrated or anxious even while I have gone through times in my life where I was miserable for lack of a sense of belonging to the world or to a specific community.

sx-last: I sort of live for memorable, unique experiences which make me feel alive. However, I often think I don't deserve them or am incapable of them, so I don't go for them as hard as I might like. But when I do I usually feel great as though "this is the whole point of being alive." I'm not sure if the inertia I feel when it comes to getting to the point of these experiences and connections is because I'm a 9, or because I'm sx-second or last.


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## d e c a d e n t

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> What you just said is basically how I define cognitive extroversion. High need for stimulus.
> 
> That is the exact opposite of me. My room is silent at all times except for the click-clack of my keyboard and the sound of my fans. I mute my video games that don't have a story, and minimize all volume except voices down to 10% for story-based games. I rarely watch movies or listen to music, and when I do, I am either only watching the movie or pausing the movie whenever I decide to do something else. Trying to keep track of all that at once is tiring. I barely ever turn on the light in my room. I cannot stand concerts and even bars are a bit much for me sometimes - I have to be in the mood. Last few times I went I kept stepping outside to get away from the music so I could THINK. Karaoke? Use to be impossible, even though the idea is fun....its too loud. Took me a long time to be able to keep centered enough to even give it a good chance. Tried Karaoke again later, at home where I could control the volume, and freaking loved it.
> 
> I'm more of a meditative person. I've learned over the years to deal with the energetic outside world, but that's just it - I DEAL with it. It's a struggle. I cultivate an inner peace that is easy to disrupt if I let it be, but more and more over the years I learn how to make it harder to disrupt. My hibernating in my room is probably detrimental to this process.
> 
> Anyway. I can't see myself as an extrovert, and so I discounted 7 because as near as I can tell the type needs high stimulus. If that is not the case...then I need a more concrete reason to discount it.


I feel like an extrovert now. I cannot live a life without music constantly playing.


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## owlet

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> What you just said is basically how I define cognitive extroversion. High need for stimulus.


 @Distortions too, it's not just extroversion which leads to a need for certain types of stimulus - it's more important (in terms of typology at least) to look at subjective vs objective and internal focus vs external focus, at least in my opinion (partly because there are so many factors which can contribute to needing more or less stimulation).

As for type 7, the type doesn't necessarily need a lot of external stimulus, but rather just tends to distract themselves from their internal state by focusing elsewhere, so one common example is how type 7 often idealises the future and focuses on how great that's going to be in comparison to the now.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Distortions said:


> I feel like an extrovert now. I cannot live a life without music constantly playing.


I...honestly just sort of assumed you are, just from what posts I have seen from you. 

I take it then that you identify as an introvert moreso?


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## d e c a d e n t

owlet said:


> @*Distortions* too, it's not just extroversion which leads to a need for certain types of stimulus - it's more important (in terms of typology at least) to look at subjective vs objective and internal focus vs external focus, at least in my opinion (partly because there are so many factors which can contribute to needing more or less stimulation).


Yeah, I was saying that in a more playful way. Although I do have to wonder sometimes.



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I...honestly just sort of assumed you are, just from what posts I have seen from you.
> 
> I take it then that you identify as an introvert moreso?


Oh? Which type do I strike you as?


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

distortions said:


> yeah, i was saying that in a more playful way. Although i do have to wonder sometimes.
> 
> 
> Oh? Which type do i strike you as?


ile.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Be one with the double post


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

JFrombaugh said:


> Quite a revelation then, because I honestly thought that was what the descriptions of Type 4 meant when they talked about taking feelings into your identity.


4s FEAR not HAVING an identity. It isn't being formed from many tiny nuggets of information. Its more like they are staring at a fully formed structure and trying to prove to themselves that they are what they see, which is why they struggle with self deception. It's not like a separate formation they reference like a checklist, nor is it "Oh I just learned a new thing about me" style of gathering bits and pieces. Fours are not curiously trying to discover who they are. They already know on some level, but they desire to find how they are significant in this world, how they are special, so they look deeper to try to find what they can bring to the world. You could say that 4 is involutionary where 9 is evolutionary. Its emotional rabbit hole, digging deeper with the looming threat of turning everything all inside out in the effort. The 4s negative outlook tends to make them look first at what they are NOT. I am NOT this, and I am NOT that. The 4, when healthier, moves to certainty at 1; the 9 more comes to peace with things as they are. 4 has a commonality with 8 in that it is searching for the Truth. 4s seek the Truth of what they actually are inside. Is this who I am? No, that's not it. This is what I am! And then learn later that wasn't it either, and that knowledge HURTS....because value comes from that uniqueness and to some extent, the accuracy of it.



JFrombaugh said:


> "Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life." Wow, I can totally relate to feeling that way, especially in high school & college.


Heh. I see the world through the Garret window, stand outside, and am not bothered by being outside, so to me it is still positive. So what does THAT say? ^^


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## Rose for a Heart

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> 4s FEAR not HAVING an identity. It isn't being formed from many tiny nuggets of information. Its more like they are staring at a fully formed structure and trying to prove to themselves that they are what they see, which is why they struggle with self deception. It's not like a separate formation they reference like a checklist, nor is it "Oh I just learned a new thing about me" style of gathering bits and pieces. Fours are not curiously trying to discover who they are. They already know on some level, but they desire to find how they are significant in this world, how they are special, so they look deeper to try to find what they can bring to the world. You could say that 4 is involutionary where 9 is evolutionary. Its emotional rabbit hole, digging deeper with the looming threat of turning everything all inside out in the effort. The 4s negative outlook tends to make them look first at what they are NOT. I am NOT this, and I am NOT that. The 4, when healthier, moves to certainty at 1; the 9 more comes to peace with things as they are. 4 has a commonality with 8 in that it is searching for the Truth. 4s seek the Truth of what they actually are inside. Is this who I am? No, that's not it. This is what I am! And then learn later that wasn't it either, and that knowledge HURTS....because value comes from that uniqueness and to some extent, the accuracy of it.


Not to confuse anyone, but I always find it hard to understand what is meant by "identity" and whether I "already know who I am." Maybe I am too immersed in it to see it. Although I am painfully stubborn about what makes me, me, and find it hard to change for others. I feel like they are attacking who I am. I am beginning to see that's not true anymore, but yeah, that's how I have felt before.

As for wanting to know the truth, that's true too. My friend tells me I keep digging into my wounds and take on too much, but I can't stop doing it. I need to _understand_. And I think truth hurts, whether or not it has to do with uniqueness haha.


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## JFrombaugh

Rose for a Heart said:


> Not to confuse anyone, but I always find it hard to understand what is meant by "identity" and whether I "already know who I am." Maybe I am too immersed in it to see it. *Although I am painfully stubborn about what makes me, me, and find it hard to change for others. I feel like they are attacking who I am. I am beginning to see that's not true anymore, but yeah, that's how I have felt before.*


Absolutely relate to the bolded part. While I still think a lot of my identity can come from the outside, the "pieces" I incorporate don't necessarily have to be other peoples' opinions (I realized how much I missed Tahoe's scenery on a drive through the Ozarks in kind of an epiphany, for example), but when they are, they're usually things that I discover how much I myself relate to at the time, and thus I strongly empathize with the other person. 

For example, if a random lady I was dating were to complain about me being too shy, I would probably just try to defend myself in a "that's just who I am" kind of way, rather than feel shameful and try to become more outgoing just to please her.

I've always assumed that by identity they mean the beliefs, traits, tastes in music/clothing/food, etc. that you are confident are true about yourself (from introspection), and which you therefore do not feel any shame in expressing to other people.


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## Rose for a Heart

JFrombaugh said:


> Absolutely relate to the bolded part. While I still think a lot of my identity can come from the outside, the "pieces" I incorporate don't necessarily have to be other peoples' opinions (I realized how much I missed Tahoe's scenery on a drive through the Ozarks in kind of an epiphany, for example), but when they are, they're usually things that I discover how much I myself relate to at the time, and thus I strongly empathize with the other person.
> 
> For example, if a random lady I was dating were to complain about me being too shy, I would probably just try to defend myself in a "that's just who I am" kind of way, rather than feel shameful and try to become more outgoing just to please her.
> 
> I've always assumed that by identity they mean the beliefs, traits, tastes in music/clothing/food, etc. that you are confident are true about yourself (from introspection), and which you therefore do not feel any shame in expressing to other people.


I think it's important to consider just how far you are willing to go to defend your identity. A 4 would risk losing his relationships, instead of who he (thinks he) is. I know the core desire of 4 is about being aware of and expressing your significance and uniqueness, but I think the _root _of all this is, that the 4 believes* there is something wrong with him*. 

I mean, if I were to step outside of the enneagram, I would explain this thus: Of course I attach myself so strongly to my flaws and think they are unchangeable, because this is *all *I have known about myself. They said I had Borderline Personality Disorder, which I am finding is another phrase for what is essentially, pre-verbal (before the age of 3) trauma. The typical borderline behaves in ways that you would expect from a traumatized person, even if they don't remember having any trauma: hyper vigilance, triggered by seemingly ordinary things, anxiety and nightmares etc. So of course I believed people were rejecting me and trying to change who I really was, when they didn't like something about me, instead of realizing pathology doesn't define me. Point is, I have never felt or known what health is, so I can't let go of what I do know about myself and the world.

As the 4 realizes there is something deeply wrong with him, I imagine he would feel incredible pain and shame at being so hideously flawed, and envy of others who are apparently better than him because they are able to garner love that he desires. It means he must be *unlovable*. At this point you begin the see how the 4 has effectively cut himself off from the rest of humanity, thinking he cannot belong. There are of course people who have gone through what 4 has, but somehow he is still able to maintain the illusion that there's something wrong specifically with him and no one else. This would be the ego and the personality of the 4 for the rest of his life. It's a painful existence. 

I said all that to illustrate that what I have fiercely defended in the past are my flaws, more than anything else. The identification with his strengths also happens with a 4 (indeed the healthier the 4 is, the less likely they are to believe there's something wrong with him), but I do believe it all _starts _from pain. And many people get defensive when pointed out what's wrong with them - so this is not _all _that's going on here. With a 4, he wears that on his sleeves as *this defines me, so why can't you accept me for who I really am?* **Keep in mind that acceptance is not the primary goal of the 4, though. Indeed, they would forgo it, in favor of just being who they are. 

And 4s want to dig underneath the surface - be it himself for the subject, be it his friends, or relationships to other people. He is not satisfied unless they *really *(care about him, love him, whatever he is searching for). Which is part of the search for *authenticity*, or in other words, the *truth*. The 4 wants to know what is really underpinning his psychic mechanisms, so he will cut and dissect it not much unlike a surgeon, because the process is, indeed, brutal.


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## JFrombaugh

Well when you put it that way, I guess I'm a 9 w/ 4 fix and not the other way around.


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## Kaioken

Not entirely sure on how it works here, but what do you think of ENTP type 5 sx/sp with a 4 wing. I'm really not sure at all about the wing. 
I think I'm recharged after interacting with people, it builds my energy to have discussions.


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## Krayfish

Kaioken said:


> Not entirely sure on how it works here, but what do you think of ENTP type 5 sx/sp with a 4 wing. I'm really not sure at all about the wing.
> I think I'm recharged after interacting with people, it builds my energy to have discussions.


Type 5 isn't that uncommon for xxTPs, and type 5w4 common for INTP, so I'd say ENTP 5w4 wouldn't be that improbable (although I'd assume that'd make you somewhat of an ambivert). I guess my only question would be if you've considered 5w6. 

If you're looking for 5w6 vs 5w4, I suppose the biggest difference would be that 5w4 is more withdrawn, more focused on their deficiencies, and introspective, more self indulgent, and more self aware. 5w6 would be more meticulous, ambivalent, more focused on security (inner/outer), slightly more drawn to people, and outwardly suspicious. Of course, that's a very simplified explanation though.


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## Kaioken

Krayfish said:


> Type 5 isn't that uncommon for xxTPs, and type 5w4 common for INTP, so I'd say ENTP 5w4 wouldn't be that improbable (although I'd assume that'd make you somewhat of an ambivert). I guess my only question would be if you've considered 5w6.
> 
> If you're looking for 5w6 vs 5w4, I suppose the biggest difference would be that 5w4 is more withdrawn, more focused on their deficiencies, and introspective, more self indulgent, and more self aware. 5w6 would be more meticulous, ambivalent, more focused on security (inner/outer), slightly more drawn to people, and outwardly suspicious. Of course, that's a very simplified explanation though.


I don't know, I 'm actually much more interested to people than I used to be. I' m focused on security but not in an healthy way, I seek closeness and connections with others but I can't really take the leap, I don't know how to ultimately get close. Like I 'm watching from afar wanting to go in, but not knowing how. Thats why I get really excited when I' m interested in someone, I want to know everything about them,be cause it's so rare. 

I thought that 5w6 was the very logical one while 5w4 was a bit more artsy and feely. I love artistic fields so I thought it would be more in tune with 5w4. Basically I seek knowledge in others, I see social situations as learning experiences. 
Yes I'm very suspicious, that's why I'm pretty sure I have this sx/sp constant confrontation and contradiction. 
If I had to say what would I prefer between security or connection with someone else, I would say that I long for this connection, but don't want to do anything really meaningful unless I see a good potential. With those I don't see much potential for something meaningful, I will simply try to know them while maintaining some distance,but I will still be happy to get to know them as long as I enjoy their company. I can easily not give signs of life for months and then come back like nothing happened.
I have friends I haven't seen in years that I still like a lot and would be happy to meet any day.


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## Kaioken

Krayfish said:


> Type 5 isn't that uncommon for xxTPs, and type 5w4 common for INTP, so I'd say ENTP 5w4 wouldn't be that improbable (although I'd assume that'd make you somewhat of an ambivert). I guess my only question would be if you've considered 5w6.
> 
> If you're looking for 5w6 vs 5w4, I suppose the biggest difference would be that 5w4 is more withdrawn, more focused on their deficiencies, and introspective, more self indulgent, and more self aware. 5w6 would be more meticulous, ambivalent, more focused on security (inner/outer), slightly more drawn to people, and outwardly suspicious. Of course, that's a very simplified explanation though.


I don't know, I 'm actually much more interested to people than I used to be. I' m focused on security but not in an healthy way, I seek closeness and connections with others but I can't really take the leap, I don't know how to ultimately get close. Like I 'm watching from afar wanting to go in, but not knowing how. Thats why I get really excited when I' m interested in someone, I want to know everything about them,be cause it's so rare. 

I thought that 5w6 was the very logical one while 5w4 was a bit more artsy and feely. I love artistic fields so I thought it would be more in tune with 5w4. Basically I seek knowledge in others, I see social situations as learning experiences. 
Yes I'm very suspicious, that's why I'm pretty sure I have this sx/sp constant confrontation and contradiction. 
If I had to say what would I prefer between security or connection with someone else, I would say that I long for this connection, but don't want to do anything really meaningful unless I see a good potential. With those I don't see much potential for something meaningful, I will simply try to know them while maintaining some distance,but I will still be happy to get to know them as long as I enjoy their company. I can easily not give signs of life for months and then come back like nothing happened.
I have friends I haven't seen in years that I still like a lot and would be happy to meet any day. 

In MBTI tests, I now get mixed results in introversion and extraversion. I prefer to be around others I can have good discussions with than be on my own, but I prefer to be alone than with people I get bored with or I simply don't like. 

I'd say I'm too reserved to be a 7,I don't easily show my real self, but I'm ready to do anything with people I have good vibes with. 

In fact I usually enjoy most of my social interactions, more than I dare to show. I don't want to look dependent. Think of it as a tsundere side I have.


----------



## Krayfish

Kaioken said:


> I don't know, I 'm actually much more interested to people than I used to be. I' m focused on security but not in an healthy way, I seek closeness and connections with others but I can't really take the leap, I don't know how to ultimately get close. Like I 'm watching from afar wanting to go in, but not knowing how. Thats why I get really excited when I' m interested in someone, I want to know everything about them,be cause it's so rare.


 This sounds far more like 5w6 than 5w4 (at least in my opinion). 5 is primarily a withdrawn type, and combined with 6, a type that seeks that connection with others, I would imagine it would create a person like you; One who desires connections, but is unsure of how to make them/doesn't know if it's safe to get close or if that is truly the desire



Kaioken said:


> I thought that 5w6 was the very logical one while 5w4 was a bit more artsy and feely. I love artistic fields so I thought it would be more in tune with 5w4. Basically *I seek knowledge in others*, I see social situations as learning experiences.


 Well that's not completely incorrect, that's definitely how the two types are portrayed, at least from a stereotype perspective. I feel as though just going by that would be too simplified. I think you'd have to look at your other fixes for that. a 5w6 core with a 513 tritype might be heavily logical and linear, but one with a 549 would lean towards artistic pursuits even with a more linear core type. Perhaps it's just your extroversion I'm sensing, but there does seem to be a people focus that orients itself by means of a 6 rather than 4.



Kaioken said:


> Yes I'm very suspicious, that's why I'm pretty sure I have this sx/sp constant confrontation and contradiction.
> If I had to say what would I prefer between security or connection with someone else, I would say that I long for this connection, but don't want to do anything really meaningful unless I see a good potential. With those I don't see much potential for something meaningful, I will simply try to know them while maintaining some distance,but I will still be happy to get to know them as long as I enjoy their company. I can easily not give signs of life for months and then come back like nothing happened.
> I have friends I haven't seen in years that I still like a lot and would be happy to meet any day.
> 
> In MBTI tests, I now get mixed results in introversion and extraversion. I prefer to be around others I can have good discussions with than be on my own, but I prefer to be alone than with people I get bored with or I simply don't like.
> 
> I'd say I'm too reserved to be a 7,I don't easily show my real self, but I'm ready to do anything with people I have good vibes with.
> 
> In fact I usually enjoy most of my social interactions, more than I dare to show. I don't want to look dependent. Think of it as a tsundere side I have.


 Yeah, I definitely see 5 over 7. I could be wrong and definitely could be missing something, but I think 5w6 would fit better than 5w4.


----------



## Kaioken

@Krayfish

Ah well, I thought that 5w6 was more introverted than 5w4, I imagined 5w6 as very logical and cold, not intereste in others, while the 5w4 was more "open".

I've read that 5w6 were more interested in intellectual activites and were more withdrawn than 5w4, while 5w4 were more artistic and less misanthropics. Sometimes descriptions are contradictory depending on the source.

I guess ENTP type 5 it is, could be a weird combination but I don't know what else I could be. I'm still unsure about the wing, you say I'm a 5w6, but reading descriptions, I don't completely see it. I don't know, I can't completely see myself in both wings.

You're right about me being a 5 over a 7, I could be as enthusiastic as them, but I'm not always that impulsive, I can be when I want to know something or am simply curious. But not as much as 7s. I'm more grounded. 

"5w6 - Healthy people of this subtype are more extroverted and focused on the external world than Fives with a Four-wing. They are not particularly introspective, preferring to observe and understand the world around them. Healthy Fives with a Six-wing observe the world with extraordinary clarity, combining the Five's drive for mastery with the Six's quest for certainty. The result is a gift for drawing meaningful conclusions from disparate facts, and an ability to make predictions based on those conclusions. They are often drawn to technical subjects, engineering, science, and philosophy, as well as inventing and repair work. "

I'm the perfect example on how those personality thories and tests can't ever be completely objective and true. I couldn't care less about repairing things, Well I wish I could do that, it sounds cool, but I'm bad at it and not naturally drawn to it


----------



## Krayfish

Kaioken said:


> Ah well, I thought that 5w6 was more introverted than 5w4, I imagined 5w6 as very logical and cold, not interested in others, while the 5w4 was more "open".
> 
> I've read that 5w6 were more interested in intellectual activites and were more withdrawn than 5w4, while 5w4 were more artistic and less misanthropics. Sometimes descriptions are contradictory depending on the source.


 This doesn't seem right, although I've seen a sources portray it in this fashion. A while ago on this forum, Owlet posted this image which may make behavior of the two wings make more sense:






. According to this image, 6 is a type that moves towards others doubly seeking others, 4 away doubly becoming more withdrawn. 5w4 would be 3x withdrawn, 5w6 only 2x. Both have a tendency towards introversion, because both are at their core type (5) withdrawn. In comparison, however, 5w4 would be more withdrawn and focused inwardly upon themselves. In the end, as withdrawn as 5 is and as much as it wants to move against others, a 6 wing will draw it back to others in the end. The second description of 5w6 you put sounds a little more accurate.



Kaioken said:


> I guess ENTP type 5 it is, could be a weird combination but I don't know what else I could be. I'm still unsure about the wing, you say I'm a 5w6, but reading descriptions, I don't completely see it. I don't know, I can't completely see myself in both wings.
> 
> You're right about me being a 5 over a 7, I could be as enthusiastic as them, but I'm not always that impulsive, I can be when I want to know something or am simply curious. But not as much as 7s. I'm more grounded.


Interesting. If you cannot see yourself in either wing completely, there's always a chance that perhaps you aren't a 5 core. Out of curiosity, what other types have you considered and why does 5 seem more likely?


----------



## Daeva

I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a child, *I'm a 6*er
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell, I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
You know you wouldn't want it any other way



*Speak Now or Forever Hold Your Peace*


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Daeva what made you change your mind about your type?


----------



## Daeva

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*Daeva* what made you change your mind about your type?


Typing at 9 helped me face very real and deep hurts, but the holy sins of sloth aren't my own. It just may be a greater sin to claim one that hasn't claimed me.

Dampening of anger, or that of the experience of one's own will in general, isn't my hell.

Rather, my true hell is the _psychological self-castration_ of my will. 6 is the face of that beast. Cowardice and reactivity towards truth, lies, hidden intentions and motives. I react to inconsistencies as if I'm being chased by the inquisitors and their holy books. In reality, it is I who creates the witch hunts.

Paranoia is my _deal_. I don't trust anyone, and least of all myself. Fire and blood and lightning from the sky is what invoke in the hearts of my fellow man. I shall not be questioned, for I don't trust the questions.


Lol, I'm just messing around. Still, my behavior is not "positive outlook" inherently trusting of people is it? It is painfully reactive to the slightest slight made and the intentions of my projected aggression.

The logical inconsistencies of me typing at 9 have reached critical mass in my head. If I care anything at all about intellectual integrity and consistency, and believe me I do, then 9 is out. I refuse to be a hypocrite professing what I consider "truth" while the need to reshape reality to fit my delusions is glaringly obvious. I've always known typing at 9 was off in many ways, but what is better than to aggressively take a stand "as a 9" in the hopes that someone takes me down a notch and defeats my logic? I am not one to merely ask questions, as it feels too vulnerable to me to find myself in that position. Instead, I take on the mantle of the obvious wrong, the devil's advocate. Challenge is what begets change and the revelation of truth.


----------



## Daeva

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*Daeva* what made you change your mind about your type?


Also, I read through Helen Palmer's "The Enneagram" and I fit the entire chapter on type 6. It's embarrassing really.


----------



## navi__x3

How can you tell the difference between 9w1 and 9w8?
I think I might be 9w8, I really quite like to debate and I don't think I hold on to grudges quite easily... I'm not sure if that is even related.


----------



## a peach

@navi__x3 hello again, old friend! ♡♡ (aah sorry it's been so long;; I hardly come onto this site anymore after re-typing myself, seems like there aren't very many threads in my favor~ And thank you again in trying to help me find myself! INFJ wasn't the right choice I'm sad to say, but realized that my inferior Ti was playing at me;; I'm still a little on the fence about Ni/Si, but at least I know for certain I am an Fe-dom!)

My INFP 9w1 very much loves to debate as well! I don't think it may be related so much to enneagram type, perhaps it has more to do with being Fi-dom? (Having very passionate feelings for a particular issue, plus aux-Ne can help in keeping one's mind more open to the other party's response.)

9w8 in general is a lot more impulsive than 9w1, and has a sort if "rough around the edges" kind of personality. I understand that when they are caught in an "unhealthy" state, they will be very paranoid and suspicious of others, whereas 9w1 may isolate themselves and fall into idealization -- forgetting about their personal needs as they retreat into a sort of "dream world", where they hold false images of others, leading to potentially making themselves open targets for manipulation. 

I feel the difference is quite stark, in just imagining how you are like when you are at your most vulnerable? Perhaps moments you can look bad on that you felt you were most sad -- in isolating yourselves from others out of paranoia and worry that others are out to hurt you, or out of dreamy hopes in thoughts only to make yourself more miserable once you realize your fantasies aren't at all true, that the perceptions you have of others have put them way too high on a pedestal and the truth of them may hurt too much to bear.


----------



## navi__x3

music box said:


> @navi__x3 hello again, old friend! ♡♡ (aah sorry it's been so long;; I hardly come onto this site anymore after re-typing myself, seems like there aren't very many threads in my favor~ And thank you again in trying to help me find myself! INFJ wasn't the right choice I'm sad to say, but realized that my inferior Ti was playing at me;; I'm still a little on the fence about Ni/Si, but at least I know for certain I am an Fe-dom!)
> 
> My INFP 9w1 very much loves to debate as well! I don't think it may be related so much to enneagram type, perhaps it has more to do with being Fi-dom? (Having very passionate feelings for a particular issue, plus aux-Ne can help in keeping one's mind more open to the other party's response.)
> 
> 9w8 in general is a lot more impulsive than 9w1, and has a sort if "rough around the edges" kind of personality. I understand that when they are caught in an "unhealthy" state, they will be very paranoid and suspicious of others, whereas 9w1 may isolate themselves and fall into idealization -- forgetting about their personal needs as they retreat into a sort of "dream world", where they hold false images of others, leading to potentially making themselves open targets for manipulation.
> 
> I feel the difference is quite stark, in just imagining how you are like when you are at your most vulnerable? Perhaps moments you can look bad on that you felt you were most sad -- in isolating yourselves from others out of paranoia and worry that others are out to hurt you, or out of dreamy hopes in thoughts only to make yourself more miserable once you realize your fantasies aren't at all true, that the perceptions you have of others have put them way too high on a pedestal and the truth of them may hurt too much to bear.


No problem at all  I actually recently realized I am Ne Dom myself! 
I see ENFJ for you more than ESFJ Hehe but I'm not so sure. that is great you figured that out!!

And you know I think that is a great question.... I am not so sure still  
I hate to say this but I think the paranoia does sound more like me than the false imagery >.<. but I don't know if that's just related to the fact that I get panic attacks easily. Hmm..


----------



## navi__x3

Kaioken said:


> @Krayfish
> 
> Ah well, I thought that 5w6 was more introverted than 5w4, I imagined 5w6 as very logical and cold, not intereste in others, while the 5w4 was more "open".
> 
> I've read that 5w6 were more interested in intellectual activites and were more withdrawn than 5w4, while 5w4 were more artistic and less misanthropics. Sometimes descriptions are contradictory depending on the source.
> 
> I guess ENTP type 5 it is, could be a weird combination but I don't know what else I could be. I'm still unsure about the wing, you say I'm a 5w6, but reading descriptions, I don't completely see it. I don't know, I can't completely see myself in both wings.
> 
> You're right about me being a 5 over a 7, I could be as enthusiastic as them, but I'm not always that impulsive, I can be when I want to know something or am simply curious. But not as much as 7s. I'm more grounded.
> 
> "5w6 - Healthy people of this subtype are more extroverted and focused on the external world than Fives with a Four-wing. They are not particularly introspective, preferring to observe and understand the world around them. Healthy Fives with a Six-wing observe the world with extraordinary clarity, combining the Five's drive for mastery with the Six's quest for certainty. The result is a gift for drawing meaningful conclusions from disparate facts, and an ability to make predictions based on those conclusions. They are often drawn to technical subjects, engineering, science, and philosophy, as well as inventing and repair work. "
> 
> I'm the perfect example on how those personality thories and tests can't ever be completely objective and true. I couldn't care less about repairing things, Well I wish I could do that, it sounds cool, but I'm bad at it and not naturally drawn to it


My ENTP fiance has a strong 5w6 in his trifix. Funny you say that you thought it was introverted because he considers himself introverted which is funny because he's actually always talking to his friends, it's just usually through a messenger or on the phone. Actually he is always around people lol.

He also isn't technically an inventor or good at repairing. What really swayed his decision between 5w4 and 5w6 is that 5w4 sees science in almost a beautiful way... I don't know how to explain this. Like the 5 wants to learn and the 4 romanticizes the learning. They love to learn the foundations of the world and how it works just to learn about it, or just to understand it in itself. 

Whereas with 5w6, they really want to understand the workings of things but they want to be able to use them. He's very drawn to extremely difficult videogames and things. (He is SO good at them too!) Like if you hand him a paper with a bunch of math problems on it for no reason he would throw it away and complain his head hurt, but if you attached those numbers with the same equations to stats of an RPG he'd solve the problems flawlessly and almost instantaneously. 

Does that make sense?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

brightflashes said:


> Question: Are you basically saying that 4s will withdraw to aggression/seek harmony while 8s will stand up toward aggression or maybe even cause some dissonance to stir things up?
> 
> Is it your estimation that a 485, 486, or 487 tritype would be rare because of this orientation toward aggression?


Remove the words "seek harmony" and insert "ruminate over it". Remove "will" and insert "often". Then I'd say that yes, something like that is what I mean.

I don't believe harmony-seeking is a 4 thing. That sounds more 9 to me.

I think that a 48x tritype would be internally conflicted over the issue of aggression. Do I confront them or let this slide? Is it worth pursuing? Its not like they'd understand anyway. Maybe it'd be better to let off some steam at the gym.

Depends on the core type and how it all manifests. Basically each part takes issue with the approach of the other, so finding balance points can be a struggle for such a type.

So what I want to know is what is the unbalancing point of 6 in the same manner. Someone suggested 9, which actually seems likely when I think about it. I was thinking something like 2


----------



## brightflashes

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> So what I want to know is what is the unbalancing point of 6 in the same manner. Someone suggested 9, which actually seems likely when I think about it. I was thinking something like 2


I think that 3-6-9 triangle gets very tangly. I could see just as much of an argument for 3 as I could see for 9.
It seems that 2 would be a better "opposite" match with a 5, but that's just me.


----------



## Paradigm

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I...would consider like to be least diplomatic of those choices, with "see the possibility of" being the most diplomatic.


We have very different communication styles, apparently .__.


----------



## Paradigm

I feel like while 4 and 8 _seem_ opposite, they're basically like different sides of the same coin. One reacts internally and the other reacts externally (with 6 facilitating between internal/external). Both of them feed on their respective emotions, often unhealthily. They both want to be recognized as "who they are" more than many of the other types.

That makes the 48x tritypes fairly congruent, in my opinion.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Paradigm said:


> I feel like while 4 and 8 _seem_ opposite, they're basically like different sides of the same coin. One reacts internally and the other reacts externally (with 6 facilitating between internal/external). Both of them feed on their respective emotions, often unhealthily. They both *want to be recognized as "who they are"* more than many of the other types.


I think authenticity is linked with reactive types in general. I don't think 8 cares so much to be "recognized" or seen as much as the 4 does. For 8s, their attention seems to be more on just _doing_. 

There was a post about this on the main forum, and I related very well to being "baffled by 8s." I don't know if that's the 9 in me though. One thing I have never related to, is how others seem to assume that 4s and 8s are attracted to each other - they are really not my type. And I have a hard time understanding them too.


----------



## drmiller100

Paradigm said:


> I feel like while 4 and 8 _seem_ opposite, they're basically like different sides of the same coin. One reacts internally and the other reacts externally (with 6 facilitating between internal/external). Both of them feed on their respective emotions, often unhealthily. They both want to be recognized as "who they are" more than many of the other types.
> 
> That makes the 48x tritypes fairly congruent, in my opinion.


I don't find value in tritypes. but I don't agree with your other points either.

I have a desire to know who I am - it is a subset of my desire for TRUTH. I think 4's desire to understand their special roles in the world. I know my role in the world. 

saying 4's and 8's are often unhealthy compared to other types does not feed your argument.
I don't have tons of emotions. Mostly just one or 2. Hungry. Horny. Sleepy. You know, the basics. Oh. And angry once in a while. I like that one.

I absolutely do not give a shit if anyone recognizes me for "who I are". I actively downplay who I am - it makes people underestimate me.

FWIW, I see 4's as the song writers, the artists, the folks with an emotional story to tell, to share with the world. Sometimes they are a bit ditzy, a bit scattered, but their story is worth telling, and they make a huge difference in the world. 

I am rarely attracted to 4's. I admire them. I WILL protect them if they want. I will help them. They are alien critters to me.


----------



## drmiller100

brightflashes said:


> while 8s will stand up toward aggression or maybe even cause some dissonance to stir things up?



wut? hooo me??????

fwiw, 8w7 is more likely to be quick to react. an 8w9 is slower to react, slower burn, longer burn.


----------



## Paradigm

drmiller100 said:


> but I don't agree with your other points either.


You misunderstood most of what I meant. 

Instead of: 


> I absolutely do not give a shit if anyone recognizes me for "who I are". I actively downplay who I am - it makes people underestimate me.


I meant: 


> I have a desire to know who I am - it is a subset of my desire for TRUTH. I think 4's desire to understand their special roles in the world. I know my role in the world.


I consider the two concepts to be similar, but obviously they are different in nuance.


As for:


> saying 4's and 8's are often unhealthy compared to other types does not feed your argument.


I didn't mean unhealthy as in enneagram-unhealthy, I meant they tend to really embody their respective fixations, _as does every type_, but more obviously than the other types of their triad. That is, 4 in shame, 8 in anger. That's not inherently bad, but it's more noticeable. The same is often said of 6s, except regarding fear.


----------



## vivacious

Paradigm said:


> I feel like while 4 and 8 _seem_ opposite, they're basically like different sides of the same coin. One reacts internally and the other reacts externally (with 6 facilitating between internal/external). Both of them feed on their respective emotions, often unhealthily. They both want to be recognized as "who they are" more than many of the other types.
> 
> That makes the 48x tritypes fairly congruent, in my opinion.


This is an interesting thought. I think I've heard of others saying something of this nature before too, about 4 and 8 sort of being inverses of each other, though I haven't heard 6 being brought into it in this context.

I think it does make sense, with all these being reactive types, that they are emotionally intense and try not only to make sense of their feelings themselves, but desire to see that in other people as well, because emotions are a source of truth and realness for these types. 

Although I would think that this is defining of 8, I would agree with @Rose for a Heart that there probably isn't much of an image component to it and reflection upon the identity, so much as it simply is part of their actions - if I am understanding this correctly. Speaking as a 6 with a probable 4 influence, I would also agree that 8s are somewhat baffling for me despite the shared reactivity, and I struggle to have conversations with them.


----------



## Manuscript

Sylas said:


> I'm sitting home passively roaming the internet most of the time. Same as my ENFP sx/sp friend. He's almost homebound. "Roaming the earth" is descriptive of types with expressed Se, such as ESFPs and ESTPs, but not so much for introverted intuitives with weak and subdued Se as a function. I'm not sure what the life-giving experiences thing is about. Must be when I finally worked myself up and repotted my house plants once in 3 years.
> 
> The experience of something missing and being dissatisfied happens when 1 disintegrates to 4 - both are part of the 'frustration' triad for which feeling of frustration with an object because that object is lacking in some way is common. It's a constant journey to find something that will last and won't trigger those feelings at least for a while. But I usually conceal it and try to move myself out of this state, so this feeling never sees the light of day, while I see 4s actively express these types of feelings and make them be almost like the basis for their day-to-day life.


That's fair enough, an introvert is an introvert regardless of instinctual stack. In my case I do spend my time collecting (generally fictional or creative) ideas on the internet, rather than seeking anything out in the world. I think the burnout cycle is connected to the sexual instinct (unless mood disorders are involved), but I don't think you can narrow it down further without more details.

As I understand it, the One becomes frustrated by finding flaws. If they're ever satisfied, they can change their standards until they're not, and end up trying to hit a moving target. I'm somewhat familiar with INTJ 1s on the internet. I can sympathise with being annoyed at one's self for various reasons, but I am also something of a dry type trying to get wet (emotional responses, flowing ideas, a creative outlet). I am pretty sure that I am actually at risk of becoming stagnant and not just seeing more and more flaws so it feels like I'm not making progress.

I've moved this to a different thread in case this drifts too far from the instincts.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Daeva said:


> I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
> I'm a child, *I'm a 6*er
> I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
> I do not feel ashamed
> I'm your hell, I'm your dream
> I'm nothing in between
> You know you wouldn't want it any other way
> 
> 
> 
> *Speak Now or Forever Hold Your Peace*


Posted 5-22-16:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...eas-questions-about-instincts-welcome-32.html



mistakenforstranger said:


> I think what you're describing about @_Sun Daeva_ has more to do with INFJ-ness than Type 7. And really, I see that more in line with Type 6 being skeptical/suspcious of others' motives. I've never heard of an INFJ 7. It seems like an incompatible MBTI/Enneagram. Even Riso-Hudson correlate Type 7 with Extraverted Sensing, which is the INFJ's inferior function. It just seems unlikely if he's INFJ, but not impossible I suppose. I could see him as 6w7, just as you all see me as Type 5, but I don't know the whole story of his life either. Hey, I came across this in my "research" on Lana del Rey's type. Maybe you found your Type 6 after all?
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/362138-lana-del-rey-not-4-a-5.html





Daeva said:


> Could it be? My first (tentative) 6 suggestion?
> 
> :love_heart:
> 
> You win internet cookies!


I win ALL the cookies!!


----------



## Temizzle

drmiller100 said:


> wut? hooo me??????
> 
> fwiw, 8w7 is more likely to be quick to react. an 8w9 is slower to react, slower burn, longer burn.


+1. Just returned from a 3 week trip with a close 8w7 relative -- this was my experience as well. 

Her reactions seemed like unnecessary anxiety to me tbh... several times even sabotaging situations that would have otherwise gone smoothly. On the flip side, she thinks I'm too nonchalant about things to a fault. 

Her energy felt more like a boxer throwing fast light jabs kind of testing the waters. I was surprised several times when I thought she would blow things out of proportion but pulls back and laughs . I think this is a product of lots of self-work though, I think when she was younger she would have pressed -- proud of her.


----------



## Cracked Actor

mistakenforstranger said:


> Posted 5-22-16:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...eas-questions-about-instincts-welcome-32.html
> 
> I win ALL the cookies!!


:shocked: Wow. Did your magic Ni prognosticate the future?


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> Posted 5-22-16:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...eas-questions-about-instincts-welcome-32.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I win ALL the cookies!!


Ah shoot! Now I can't give you that win, I'm petty like that.. :ninja:

I'm a 2 now!


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Daeva said:


> Ah shoot! Now I can't give you that win, I'm petty like that.. :ninja:
> 
> I'm a 2 now!


If you don't mind me asking, why did you no longer relate to type 1?


----------



## Daeva

Rose for a Heart said:


> If you don't mind me asking, why did you no longer relate to type 1?


While my personality falls quite in line with many aspects of the type (superego is strong in me, frustration(not the triad, the emotion), being critical, etc), overall the drive of it isn't in me. I don't have the "need to act" vis-à-vis gut triad in response to my feelings of frustration. I'm more passive about it all. People also don't see me as a critical person, as I don't give off the energy of "I'm judging you." You know what I mean, 1's overflow with that! :laughing:
My presentation is a lot warmer and accepting than that, as are my actions overall.

Also, the competency thing. I'm _far_ too... emotional. :crazy:


----------



## Cracked Actor

Daeva said:


> Ah shoot! Now I can't give you that win, I'm petty like that.. :ninja:
> 
> I'm a 2 now!


It's interesting (and telling) that you chose the word petty to describe yourself. Riso Hudson and Tom Condon use "petty" as one of the many defining traits of type 6.

Riso Hudson on Sixes:



> Sixes are like a ping-pong ball that is constantly shuttling back and forth between whatever influence is hitting the hardest in any given moment. Because of this reactivity, no matter what we say about Sixes, the opposite is often also as true. They are both strong and weak, fearful and courageous, trusting and distrusting, defenders and provokers, sweet and sour, aggressive and passive, bullies and weaklings, on the defensive and on the offensive, thinkers and doers, group people and soloists, believers and doubters, cooperative and obstructionistic, tender and mean, generous and *petty*—and on and on. It is the contradictory picture that is the characteristic “fingerprint” of Sixes, the fact that they are a bundle of opposites.





> Sixes get nervous about making a mistake and do not want to be criticized (much less ostracized) for their efforts. They can seem to be prejudiced and not open minded, *petty* and political, playing favorites and trying to please authorities rather than seek the objective truth.


Tom Condon on Sixes:



> Can be thin-skinned, sensitive to insults and slights and *petty* about keeping score: entertain conspiracy theories behind closed doors.


----------



## Daeva

Hermetica said:


> It's interesting (and telling) that you chose the word petty to describe yourself. Riso Hudson and Tom Condon use "petty" as one of the many defining traits of type 6.


But I'm a 2! :shocked:


----------



## Animal

Maybe I'm 4w5 after all.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> Maybe I'm 4w5 after all.


I don't see where the 5 wing is portrayed in your personal photos. If anything, the fact that you couldn't make a post about considering another type without promoting it with a photo of yourself is enough of a clue for 3 wing, not 5.


----------



## Paradigm

@Animal @Daeva

I can't tell if you two are trolling or not...


----------



## Daeva

Paradigm said:


> @*Animal* @*Daeva*
> 
> I can't tell if you two are trolling or not...


Not trolling, just omitting a whooooooole lot a steps.

edit: Also, trolling? Moi? *Jamais*!!


----------



## Paradigm

Daeva said:


> Not trolling, just omitting a whooooooole lot a steps.
> 
> edit: Also, trolling? Moi? *Jamais*!!


Well, I don't know you well enough to comment, just the 9 -> 6 was okay because explanations were had, but then two days later you're at 2 and it's like, "wat." Not that I'm denying you may be a 2, just the _suddenness _of it was weird.

As for @Animal: to be blunt, you're not a 4w5, it seems like you _want_ to be a 4w5. You know the reasons I gave you years ago, and you self-promote a shit-ton, and everything points to a much stronger 3 connection than you, apparently, think/feel. Like, I could rationalize a lot of other types to fit me in the same manner and use the excuses I use now ("you just see a part of me!") but they wouldn't be true, I'm still a 6w7 at the end of the day and I gotta deal with it.
Also, ISTP? Really? I like you a lot, but that just seems a crazy typing for you


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> As for @*Animal*: to be blunt, you're not a 4w5, it seems like you _want_ to be a 4w5.


I definitely do not. I strongly desire to be a 4w3 if I have to be a 4 at all. This is blatantly untrue, I've never wanted that. I mistyped at 5 in the middle of the worst trauma I've experienced in my life and I have nothing but negative associations with it. Anyone who knows me, knows that.. and I'm sure I've talked with you about it in the past too.

Just because other people glamorize 4w5 doesn't mean I got on that train..ever.



> You know the reasons I gave you years ago, and you self-promote a shit-ton, and everything points to a much stronger 3 connection than you, apparently, think/feel. Like, I could rationalize a lot of other types to fit me in the same manner and use the excuses I use now ("you just see a part of me!") but they wouldn't be true, I'm still a 6w7 at the end of the day and I gotta deal with it.


Nah I do think and feel those things. I get what you mean. I really do. 
I don't rationalize with "You just see part of me." I'm open to all feedback as always and I appreciate that you give it. But my motives in typing a certain way are far from the way you present them. 

I like you too, a lot, but I just need to clear this up because it gets in the way of a discussion.

I am not using excuses like that. I never did. I do not WANT to be a 4w5. Never did. None of that is me. As for the self-promotion stuff and the arguments for 3, sure, I get you on that. But I haven't used any excuses or demonstrating "wanting" to be a 4w5, so I'm not sure where you get that.. seems like conjecture unrelated to my personality. 

As for the excuse stuff... I am of the opinion that type shows itself all the time, whether we like it or not, and sometimes a stranger can see it more clearly than a friend. Those "you only see part of me" arguments are bogus. I mean, everyone is biased, nobody can see anyone else in full, but... "part of me" is not in my vocabulary, take all of me, right now, NOW , HARD! 468 truth-volcano.. can you swallow it?  I'm not "part of me" in different scenarios, I'm always me. I can't NOT do me. And you can't NOT do you. This is why the "part of me" arguments are downright irrelevant.

I'm always the one telling people even on this thread that the "you don't see me as I really am" argument is a deflection. Yes, nobody sees us as we are, nobody sees themselves as they are either; if we did, there would be no point in enneagram, and self-typing would be as easy as figuring out your eye color.




> Also, ISTP? Really? I like you a lot, but that just seems a crazy typing for you


:blushed: I will get into this one more when I have the time and energy to bring the discussion to this board. I get what you mean though, and I know it's nothing personal.


----------



## Daeva

Paradigm said:


> Well, I don't know you well enough to comment, just the 9 -> 6 was okay because explanations were had, but then two days later you're at 2 and it's like, "wat." Not that I'm denying you may be a 2, just the _suddenness _of it was weird.
> 
> As for @*Animal*: to be blunt, you're not a 4w5, it seems like you _want_ to be a 4w5. You know the reasons I gave you years ago, and you self-promote a shit-ton, and everything points to a much stronger 3 connection than you, apparently, think/feel. Like, I could rationalize a lot of other types to fit me in the same manner and use the excuses I use now ("you just see a part of me!") but they wouldn't be true, I'm still a 6w7 at the end of the day and I gotta deal with it.
> Also, ISTP? Really? I like you a lot, but that just seems a crazy typing for you


Well, no one ever thought I was a 9 to begin with, so that might as well be a "null" or "void" typing, no matter my passion (read: hatred) for that self-typing. As a relief from being misled into type 9 (yes there were outside FORCES), I was overly enthusiastic when I looked into the type that I knew the majority of people online saw me as, I'm a mind reader after all... and it resonated with me!!!

But alas, the gods gazed down on me and said "*No.*"

No one is going to see 2 for me on this forum, so I won't bother. Sure, I could give reasons and people might go "I see..."... but LOL they won't 'see' it. They don't have to either.
I'm not _nice_ and _friendly _enough here, you see.



Plenty of people have seen @*Animal* as a 5-winger since forever, seeing it glister like a thorn in their eye. She doesn't WANT to be a 5-winger, she in fact hates the 5 in herself. She wants the 3.
Rationalization happens all the time, and her wing is far less clear than you are making it out to be. And it is still undecided anyway.

And yes, ISTP. Like Arya Stark!


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> I don't rationalize with "You just see part of me." I'm open to all feedback as always and I appreciate that you give it. But please stop painting my motives in typing a certain way without asking.


I never said those were your motives. I specifically said they were mine; I used the first person for a reason. I don't think I said anything about your motives besides "wanting to be 4w5," and even then I used a qualifier ("seems like").


----------



## GalaxyGazer

Honestly, I haven't studied enneatypes a lot. I think I am a 6, but I could just as easily be a 4. If anyone is familiar enough with my posts to try and type me, go ahead.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> I never said those were your motives. I specifically said they were mine; I used the first person for a reason. I don't think I said anything about your motives besides "wanting to be 4w5," and even then I used a qualifier ("seems like").


Ah ok sorry.. maybe I misunderstood.
I don't want to be a 4w5. I am what I am.. no matter what my wing is, or type, or whatever.. I'm still me. So it doesn't matter. I didn't make any arguments here because everyone knows me, so making a long explanation about who I am at this point in order to push some case seems redundant.


----------



## Paradigm

GalaxyGazer said:


> I feel like I fit into the ISFP "box" better than others, but I still have some doubts. If you think I'm mistyped pls respond


GL;HF?
http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...st-mistype-revelation-thread-mbt-edition.html

Given the subforum I doubt it'll be in depth, but hey you might get lucky.


----------



## Animal

@*Paradigm*
Those reasons you gave are why I've typed at 4w3 for so long, and I do see myself in that.
However, would you say Marilyn Manson doesn't self-promote? Or is he also a 4w3?


----------



## Paradigm

@Daeva @Animal

Okay, fair enough. I didn't mean to exactly demand you guys defend yourself, I'm just not good at talking so it probably came out that way. I do feel like your current typing is wrong, Animal, but I'm more than happy to... accept it?

Also I don't watch GoT so um, go team Arya?

I don't know who Marilyn Manson is either besides "famous" and I think "musician."

...This is why I don't type celebrities.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> @*Daeva* @*Animal*
> 
> Okay, fair enough. I didn't mean to exactly demand you guys defend yourself, I'm just not good at talking so it probably came out that way. I do feel like your current typing is wrong, Animal, but I'm more than happy to... accept it?
> 
> Also I don't watch GoT so um, go team Arya?


You don't have to accept anything. I welcome your disagreements and challenges. 
I'm not challenging your view of me, actually, but rather, I'm asking a bigger question: What is the real difference between 4w3 and 4w5? I think many people use the "non self promoting, stuck in their own hole" description of 4w5 on this forum in order to justify their own core 4w5 mistype, while still blatantly showing an inordinate amount of sass and others-focus and need to disprove others' self-typings, which reveals that their "4w5 is totally self-enclosed and doesn't put themselves out there, LIKE ME" argument is bunk. They probably aren't image types at all.

I posted this here due to recent arguments elsewhere which made me reconsider, but I'm not convinced on either wing yet. The best thing I can hope for is to provoke discussion on the real meaning of wings and what it means to be an image type. "Self-promotion" or the lack thereof does not indicate the difference between 4w3 and 4w5, when you take people like Marilyn Manson into account.


----------



## Daeva

Paradigm said:


> um, go team Arya?


Team Arya!!!! YES

I'm also team Jaime though!

:laughing:


----------



## Animal

@*Paradigm*
It's possible that my more "raw" "splat" image is a result of being Social last, as in, less aware of how it will be received socially, or what Soc standards are expected of me. However, Prince is Sx/Sp 4w3s and he has a much "cleaner" image. My image is much more like Marilyn Manson, a Social 4w5. And I also appear quite similar to Trent Reznor, a 5w4.










When looking at a wide array of 4 celebrities and people on forums where there are enneagram practitioners and better methods for correct typings to be reached and mistypes to be challenged (the rules here make that impossible), I see that I "appear" much more similar to the 4w5s than the 4w3s overall - everything from my looks to my attitude to my mindset. 

I have been trying to figure out where the real line is between 4w3 and 4w5, but I can't abide by the "4w5s are not invested at all in their image" type of arguments, because that means the person in question isn't an image type.


Also, I want to point out that "posting pictures of myself" is not necessarily self-promoting.. Marilyn Manson, a 4w5, is a much better self-promoter than I am. I promote myself in my day to day vocabulary, and I think that's what you're referring to. I post images of myself, however, because pictures speak a thousand words and are much more valuable in conveying someone's attitude and schtick in a way that can't be "reasoned out of" than any argument I could make.

I don't mind if other people don't want to post their image. I didn't post any pictures of myself for the first 3 years here and found my type regardless.. eventually. However, what's funny is, no matter what people believed about my type, when they saw my photos they often said Hm, you look 4ish...

On facebook forums, my pics are right there for everyone to see, and practitioners immediately assume I'm a 4, without a type label.

I post pictures here now, habitually, because to me this keeps things real. Demeanor can't be faked.


----------



## GalaxyGazer

Paradigm said:


> GL;HF?
> http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...st-mistype-revelation-thread-mbt-edition.html
> 
> Given the subforum I doubt it'll be in depth, but hey you might get lucky.


oh cool thx


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Daeva said:


> Plenty of people have seen @*Animal* as a 5-winger since forever, seeing it glister like a thorn in their eye. She doesn't WANT to be a 5-winger, she in fact hates the 5 in herself. She wants the 3.
> Rationalization happens all the time, and her wing is far less clear than you are making it out to be. And it is still undecided anyway.


This is interesting. As a 5-winger, I disown anything even remotely 3-ish in me. It's probably related to my 4 core, in that I dislike changing myself for the sake of interpersonal interaction, efficiency, all that stuff. For as long as I can remember, I have seen that as "not me." My hatred for type 3 (I don't hate the _people _of that type though) has lessened considerably though, since I have slowly started letting go of the belief that there's something wrong with me. 

As for your 2 typing, I know you said people won't see you as 2, but can you explain why you are typing at that now? It also seems that you have gone through quite a few type changes. Apologies for being blunt, but, what makes it difficult to pinpoint a type for you? 

On that note, I have also noticed that type 4s tend to be specially _stubborn _about their self-typing. and hardly ever change it.



Paradigm said:


> Also, ISTP? Really? I like you a lot, but that just seems a crazy typing for you


No comment on the MBTI, but it makes sense that @Animal is an (F) user in socionics. I would not expect her to be an Ne user, since that would immediately put Se in the super-ego block, and that doesn't make sense for her. I am new to socionics, but pretty much any position where she is able to use Se a lot makes sense.

Jung made a basic, but insightful, distinction between a feeler and a thinker - in that the feeler is focused on whether something is agreeable to him or not, while the thinker is focused on what something actually is. If this distinction still holds true for socionics, T>F _might _make sense for her.


----------



## Animal

Rose for a Heart said:


> This is interesting. As a 5-winger, I disown anything even remotely 3-ish in me. It's probably related to my 4 core, in that I dislike changing myself for the sake of interpersonal interaction, efficiency, all that stuff.


I'm the same here. Self-promoting: I am guilty as charged. Changing myself for the sake of anything: Nope.
That was why I posted that picture: Change me, fix me, save me, I DARE YOU.
Anyone in my life complains about this. I have the same themes, same everything, all my life, and if I budge even in the slightest way, it's on my terms. Yet even that doesn't really happen because I have such an elaborate hall of mirrors and a powerful sense of personal trajectory and purpose. (Ni-HA)



> For as long as I can remember, I have seen that as "not me." My hatred for type 3 (I don't hate the _people _of that type though) has lessened considerably though, since I have slowly started letting go of the belief that there's something wrong with me.


I don't hate 3 in myself - I see it as.. whether I'm a 4w3 or a 4w5, I still wish I had MORE 3, to get myself 'out there' rather than to have a unfinished, unpromoted projects and a hall of mirrors so vast I cannot possibly communicate it to anyone...



> On that note, I have also noticed that type 4s tend to be specially _stubborn _about their self-typing. and hardly ever change it.


For me it's about that revelation of: THIS. IS. IT. After I hit 4, and 8, and 468, and Sx/Sp.. there was always a moment of "no going back from here." Something clicked in a deeper way: it was beyond the realm of "this makes sense" and into the realm of "cannot unsee." Once it reaches beyond the realm of 'reasons' and makes its way into my unconscious, then there's a "felt sense" that everything clicks together. The system has to be built first, before I can type myself correctly within it, and when I do have those "moments of revelation," then pieces of the theoretical system tend to fall into place more neatly than before.



> No comment on the MBTI, but it makes sense that @*Animal* is an (F) user in socionics. I would not expect her to be an Ne user, since that would immediately put Se in the super-ego block, and that doesn't make sense for her. I am new to socionics, but pretty much any position where she is able to use Se a lot makes sense.
> 
> Jung made a basic, but insightful, distinction between a feeler and a thinker - in that the feeler is focused on whether something is agreeable to him or not, while the thinker is focused on what something actually is. If this distinction still holds true for socionics, T>F _might _make sense for her.


To me, MBTI is a collection of stereotypes which dilute and misplace the meaning of the functions. People often mistype in Socionics because they mistype in MBTI based on descriptions of trait-collections that nearly anyone can relate to.
Yet, when they find their type in Socionics, or in systems like Beebe which expand on Jung's theories, they are more able to see how they do, in fact, fit that type in MBTI.

So, whatever my type is in Socionics, my MBTI will follow. I'm not concerned with fitting a stereotype.
That said, given my lifestyle, the ISTP stereotype is actually not that far off anyway, especially compared to others.. the only other that comes close is the ISFP.

I appreciate the distinction you make here, and I believe it is valid.


----------



## Daeva

Rose for a Heart said:


> This is interesting. As a 5-winger, I disown anything even remotely 3-ish in me. It's probably related to my 4 core, in that I dislike changing myself for the sake of interpersonal interaction, efficiency, all that stuff. For as long as I can remember, I have seen that as "not me." My hatred for type 3 (I don't hate the _people _of that type though) has lessened considerably though, since I have slowly started letting go of the belief that there's something wrong with me.
> 
> As for your 2 typing, I know you said people won't see you as 2, but can you explain why you are typing at that now? It also seems that you have gone through quite a few type changes. Apologies for being blunt, but, what makes it difficult to pinpoint a type for you?
> 
> On that note, I have also noticed that type 4s tend to be specially _stubborn _about their self-typing. and hardly ever change it.


What makes it difficult to pinpoint a type for me...

Holy shit, that's a tough question! :shocked:
Not that I haven't been thinking of this, of course, but yeah... still, a tough question indeed.

I guess one could say it's something to do with the Attachment triad and how they can have a more "porous ego," whatever the hell that means. Similar to what's been said about type 6, them contradictions that I found were never present in a single type. Untrue of course, but I couldn't see it. 
Super-self-conscious and anxious person, yet no 6 ever sees themselves in me (in person). Friendly face but aggressive undertones? Charming and vain character, yet extremely quiet? Super-devoted, but aggressive love that demands complete attention... If not core, 2 fix has been seen to the point that it can't be unseen, even if I thought it to be absurd for so long.

I mean really, type 2... Who ever gets typed at this? Lol, it's the "deadest" subforum on here, and this is not by chance either. Also, I've been so focused on my own identity my whole life... surely 2 can't be it? But then look at my typing thread, et voila, you'll find me talking about my desire to help and affect people "for the better." Image issues throughout my entire posting career... over and over again whenever I open up about my struggles. Worth, masks, relationships, self-consciousness, pride,...
And I've always known and said this about myself; I am great at reading other people, but I'm my own blindspot.


So, either I'm an ignorant fool and I'm an attachment type, 6 I'm sure according to many here, 9 according to some warped minds (seriously lol, 9 wtf. I'm forever off THAT train).. Or I'm the one type no one ever gets typed at, especially not a male who seems to care a lot about thinking straight and isn't too good to get down and dirty..

Really, I'm presenting a dilemma here on this forum that isn't a dilemma at all in my heart; neither is it in @Animal 's heart. She's always been wary of 9 (or 6 or whatever) for me. BUT (!), she says, this type (2) has been recognized by her heart the way no other type has been before. She has seen a truth in it that compares to seeing the truth of 4 in herself.
This isn't a statement I'm taking lightly. She is not one to play with her heart like that, nor one to betray it.


----------



## Daeva

Also, for those who care, the imagery I identify myself with;


* *





My personal favorite (not in terms of technique per se, but in terms of describing ME);










First collage ever made;










Sometime something later;










One of the few ones I can post here without breaking the rules (I hope lol);










Love and War;




















My latest;












@*Rose for a Heart*

I think this illustrates my struggle well with finding my type.
I've been looking into type and imagery for a good while now. And my own have been one of the harder ones to type. Its themes, motif, color palette, etc. are (clearly) not "too vague" or "undefined." Quite the opposite so. But it's because this energy has not been recognized much that this has been so difficult to figure out.

Edit: And of course, this applies for my type at large. Hard to recognize type signature. For what reason? Ah.. That's the tricky part, but I've lined out some of my thinking in the other post.


----------



## Animal

@Daeva has a volcanic fury inside him that arises when people don't appreciate him.
When we met, he presented himself as the perfect, ideal lover. Even when opening up about his personal flaws (which he admitted later, he did because he knew that as a 4, that is what I'd want out of him)... I still sensed he was "pushing forward" some image that he knew I would fall in love with.. and I became wary, and broke him open. I pushed through it until I unleashed a roaring dragon telling me in a flaming fury of pride that I was underestimating him.
And the story goes on and on as such... throughout our relationship. The 2 typing tied it all together... all of my own reactions, my own suspicions, as well as his suspicions of me.. his pouting when I do something small that shows I didn't appreciate him.. like he prepares something knowing he's saving me the trouble, and then I just keep typing to someone else.. or whatever...

All of his furies boil down to feeling overlooked and under-appreciated. I thought the 'overlooked' part was 9, and for sure he has a 9 fix, but the core of it is not that he feels unseen or invisible as much as, he gave something and didn't get back people liking him, loving him, thanking him, or being kind to him.

This happens on various levels, from forums to friendships to our relationship, to his relationships with his family members.

Once I saw the name for the thread - "2" - I saw that thread everywhere. I could no longer justify another type, ANY type, being more obvious, ever-present, both beautiful and problematic than this.

It does raise some questions: for one, his crazy Sp/Sx ass is not very sociable. Then again, our other friend, who is 2w1 and Sp/So, also had struggled with being sociable beyond her family.

When he does socialize in person, he's charming and pleasant. Or he stays quiet, because he senses the person won't appreciate his input - but he does those small things to get their approval, like to acknowledge what they say, smile or nod, to show he's listening.. etc. His eye always lands on whether or not people like him, approve of him. Ask him "Why do you need people to like you, appreciate you.." he has no response. It is what it is what it is. It's a core fixation.


----------



## Daeva

@Animal
Stop it (don't), you're making me blush.. :blushed:


----------



## Animal

Daeva said:


> @*Animal*
> Stop it (don't), you're making me blush.. :blushed:


That's the other thing. 
I've never seen anyone appreciate attention as much as you do, even if in some cases it's negative attention :kitteh:

It's so easy to cheer you up by telling you how amazing you are and paying a lot of attention to you even if you pretend to hate it at first.


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> That's the other thing.
> I've never seen anyone appreciate attention as much as you do, even if in some cases it's negative attention :kitteh:
> 
> It's so easy to cheer you up by telling you how amazing you are and paying a lot of attention to you even if you pretend to hate it at first.


I am naked before you. :blushed:


----------



## Animal

Daeva said:


> I am naked before you. :blushed:


:lovekitty::loveyou:


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> Also, I want to point out that "posting pictures of myself" is not necessarily self-promoting.. Marilyn Manson, a 4w5, is a much better self-promoter than I am. I promote myself in my day to day vocabulary, and I think that's what you're referring to.


Yes, that was what I was referring to  It's also extreme shorthand to wrap up 4w3 as a type for now, and only one of the many things (which I referenced as saying before) that make you look w3 to me. Of course self-promotion isn't just pictures, but you do it so casually in everything you say/write that it's really noticeable and why I picked that specific trait as a highlight. Do you do it unconsciously, or is it something you do on purpose? 

I'm not saying 4w5 isn't an image type and thus immune to self-promotion or such (actually, no one is immune to it), but... I think it's probably a skill more than a talent. Sure, some people are naturally better at it, but like many things it's something you can learn how to do.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> Yes, that was what I was referring to  It's also extreme shorthand to wrap up 4w3 as a type for now, and only one of the many things (which I referenced as saying before) that make you look w3 to me. Of course self-promotion isn't just pictures, but you do it so casually in everything you say/write that it's really noticeable and why I picked that specific trait as a highlight. Do you do it unconsciously, or is it something you do on purpose?
> 
> I'm not saying 4w5 isn't an image type and thus immune to self-promotion or such (actually, no one is immune to it), but... I think it's probably a skill more than a talent. Sure, some people are naturally better at it, but like many things it's something you can learn how to do.


Definitely not on purpose. 
My father is 7w8 Sx/Sp and complains that I don't promote myself enough or put myself out there.
I was not raised in a family that values modesty whatsoever. My personal reaction to most displays of modesty is "that's fake" or "the person has no sense of who they are."
And yes, I do see it as a display. People are self-absorbed, generally. Why not be honest about it? One thing that drew me to @*Daeva* in the first place is his flashy signature and avatars and collages and other decorations, and his constant self-aggrandizing jokes.

Maybe that has some impact on why it comes out , to your eye, automatic?

I'm not saying this to claim it isn't 4w3 though. I'm responding without a typing in mind, just to the idea of self-promotion itself.

I do know that 4, in general, is said to appreciate drama and to be highly self-absorbed. So this has to apply to 4w5 as well.

And if a 4w3 is praised in their family for being modest, they will act that way. Many 3s do 'false modesty' because it's socially acceptable, and they get positive feedback from outside for this show of modesty.

I get negative feedback from most people outside my family, but keep doing it because "it's me" and "it's honest." What does that say about me?


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> Also, I want to point out that "posting pictures of myself" is not necessarily self-promoting.. Marilyn Manson, a 4w5, is a much better self-promoter than I am. I promote myself in my day to day vocabulary, and I think that's what you're referring to. I post images of myself, however, because pictures speak a thousand words and are much more valuable in conveying someone's attitude and schtick in a way that can't be "reasoned out of" than any argument I could make.
> 
> I don't mind if other people don't want to post their image. I didn't post any pictures of myself for the first 3 years here and found my type regardless.. eventually. However, what's funny is, no matter what people believed about my type, when they saw my photos they often said Hm, you look 4ish...


No one said you don't look 4 so I don't know why that was brought up.

There's a difference between the kind of behavior a 4w3 engages in an online setting compared to the behaviors of a 4w5. 3s and 5s are very opposing enneagram types and one of the reasons why is because of their attitudes toward self-promotion. 3s want to be seen. 5s are uncomfortable with being seen and can mask much of themselves in mystery.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-forum-investigator/74947-self-promotion-5-a.html

Excerpts from said thread:



> 5 vs 3: Threes are much more comfortable promoting themselves. Fives find it awkward to sell themselves in any capacity.





Kilgore Trout said:


> I find this very true of myself. I feel largely uncomfortable if I happen to talk about a skill or talent I have. I hate to talk about myself as an important person and never promote any projects that I'm working on, even if I can make money. Even among close friends, I don't want to "sell" my abilities, but rather, the abilities in themselves are a reward for me. I should probably let people know about some of my accomplishments, but such promotion seems too egotistical and arrogant to me. I can't and won't do it.





Scruffy said:


> A 5 sees competency as objective, if they are competent enough they don't _need_ to sell themselves. Selling yourself is a cheapening of understanding.





Jamie.Ether said:


> I'd rather promote my ideas than myself.
> Fives require a certain amount of space and value their independence. Selling myself sounds like too great a demand on me. I would feel smothered and stressed.





PixieSaysHi said:


> I cannot think of anything worse in the workforce than "networking" "marketing" and "selling myself". It is beyond cringe worthy. Unfortunately, I am forced to do this very thing right now. I hate putting myself out there.





ertertwert said:


> I dated a 3 and we were like polar opposites. Whereas a 3 will constantly praise herself and her own ideas, a 5 will likely want to shy away from any attention whatsoever. I won't bring up anything on my mind unless it's relevant to the conversation at hand. A 3 doesn't seem to need any justification for presenting new ideas.


Prince was a dandy 4. Not a bohemian. Bohemian 4s can be either wing, just like dandies can be either wing. So yes, a person can still be 4w3 and have a messier, more bohemian image. I'm a 4w5 and a dandy, just like Charles Baudelaire who was 4w5 and a dandy. I can sometimes spend hours in front of the mirror getting my appearance to look the way I want it to look, but one activity I don't partake in is taking any opportunity I can to promote my image on forums. If people want to know what I look like, they just have to click on my profile. Simple as that. I have no thirst to be recognized for my image. All that to say: wings don't cater to one specific style of appearance. I feel as though assigning appearance styles to wings promotes a shallow understanding of the type.

Some examples: Writer Yukio Mishima was an INFJ 4w5 and he was always dressed in a well-fitted suit, same goes for singer-songwriter Nick Cave. Just because their image is "clean" doesn't make them any less of a 5 wing.


----------



## Animal

@*Hermetica*
I disagree with your interpretation of what a 4 is, and I disagree with the idea that 4w5s don't want to be seen. 
I disagree that you can use a wing to erase the core issues of a type or the triad it belongs to.
I have not, personally, encountered any 4w5 who "doesn't want to be seen."
So we are at an impasse.

I do appreciate your input, but I don't have much more to say to it than that.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> @*Hermetica*
> I disagree with your interpretation of what a 4 is, and I disagree with the idea that 4w5s don't want to be seen.
> I disagree that you can use a wing to erase the core issues of a type or the triad it belongs to.
> I have not, personally, encountered any 4w5 who "doesn't want to be seen."
> So we are at an impasse.
> 
> I do appreciate your input, but I don't have much more to say to it than that.


Actually, I said 5s don't want to be seen, not 4w5s. 4w5s have more in common with 5ish concerns (dislike being seen, dislike promoting oneself) than with 3ish concerns (promoting one's image). That was the point of my post that you missed.


----------



## Animal

Hermetica said:


> Actually, I said 5s don't want to be seen, not 4w5s. 4w5s have more in common with 5ish concerns (dislike being seen, dislike promoting oneself) than with 3ish concerns (promoting one's image). That was the point of my post that you missed.


I didn't miss it, though I understand why it may look as if I did, based on my wording. But I'll tell you now, I didn't.
I just don't agree.

I have nothing against you and don't want to start a big debaucle because last time we did this, we never reached an agreement, and I don't want to kick up an argument that will just lead to negative feelings and will never go anywhere. I have a different opinion on what constitutes type 4 (wing aside) than you do, therefore my opinion on 4w5 is not the same either. And that's fine.  I just don't see the point in debating it since I already know it won't lead anywhere productive.

On another note, I like your avatar.


----------



## Animal

@Hermetica
To be clear, this is not about people seeing me as a 4w3 - I saw myself that way all this time, and it's still possible that is my type, and I'm fine with that. I just don't like basing a discussion on type, on notions that, to me, seem extraneous to the type. You may be a 4w5 yourself, but if your experience of 4w5 is what you describe, then I would assert it is your personal experience, extraneous to the type. For instance, if I said: you're not a 4 unless you see yourself as an ANIMAL, that would be extraneous to type, even if my sense of 'animalism' comes from a deficient self-image.


----------



## Animal

This 5w4 doesn't look like someone who wants to be "unseen" and not have people look at him..


----------



## Cracked Actor

@Animal Again, not the point. Type 5 artists make their art and release it. They are temporarily seen when releasing their art into the world, yes. What makes a 3 different is that they don't just make and release their art, they go around advertising their image and what they've created at any opportunity. The point of it is to remind others of the 3's existence, their image, their achievements, their talents. This is completely different to the 5 who creates something, puts it out there and withdraws from the world to explore new ideas, only reemerging when they have a new idea or creation to share.


----------



## Animal

@Hermetica
There is a lot of enneagram literature that discusses some 3s acting modest at surface because they are very sensitive to the reactions they receive. So they may self-promote in subtle ways, but they also respond to outside input, thus upon realizing they are getting a good reaction in a certain circle or culture by being modest, some 3s will be modest. Or, if they were raised in a family or sub-culture that values modesty, they may take on these traits. Anyone could, but this applies especially to attachment types.

About 5s - Reznor has been in the spotlight all his life, and he does not "just release his art" - he also promotes it all over the place, writes articles about better ways to promote music, talks about why his record company was superior, and on and on.

There are too many exceptions where this distinction is concerned, so I don't see it as a valid distinction. 

It is a false assumption that modesty is valued in the same way or means the same thing from culture to culture, also, and this means it's impossible to approach enneagram typing from this angle alone. It can be one component - as in, you might point out how a particular person is after something (a 3 being after recognition and approval, acting in X way to get it) .. but using data like drawing a line between 3 and 5 *wings* on a 4, on this basis alone, is inconclusive. It also has to be kept in mind that wings on another type do not manifest the same way that type does.


----------



## Animal

Hermetica said:


> Prince was a dandy 4. Not a bohemian. Bohemian 4s can be either wing, just like dandies can be either wing. So yes, a person can still be 4w3 and have a messier, more bohemian image. I'm a 4w5 and a dandy, just like Charles Baudelaire who was 4w5 and a dandy. I can sometimes spend hours in front of the mirror getting my appearance to look the way I want it to look, but one activity I don't partake in is taking any opportunity I can to promote my image on forums. If people want to know what I look like, they just have to click on my profile. Simple as that.


"Dandy" and "Bohemian" : now THAT is a shallow view on the types. Anyone of any type (not just 4) could be either of these things, and a 4 could be neither. It is unrelated to enneagram; it's personal style and aesthetic.



> I have no thirst to be recognized for my image.


So how do you justify being an image type?



> All that to say: wings don't cater to one specific style of appearance. I feel as though assigning appearance styles to wings promotes a shallow understanding of the type.


I was not talking about style or anything that "shallow," to use your own words. I was talking about an overall _schtick_, which is type related. As in, there will be a disembodied quality to 4s and 5s, a guttish quality to gut types, etc. Typing by photos is about someone's motion, aura, body language etc, it's not about their particular "style." 

There are many threads about visual typing, and disagreement about whether it matters. To me, it can't be ignored. I know that some people have medical conditions (I'm one of them) but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about.. in a photo, you can see if someone has a kind of 'back and forth' nervous quality (a six), etc. People can't hide the vibes they give off. This has nothing to do with the clothes they are wearing.

Psychologists and others have agreed, on many different occasions, that body language constitutes upwards of 50% of communication. Some have concluded it's as high as 70%. 

You can argue that "interpreting it is subjective," but that is the same with interpreting type through words. It's always subjective. If you've LEARNED to interpret body language, and you've LEARNED to match this to enneagram, then it's a skill rather than a random opinion.

And, guess what: this is what professional enneagram practitioners do. They type you the moment you walk through the door. I've seen it in action.


It is insane to ignore body language when typing people. Words are only a small portion of the story, and the mind can perceive us in many ways which the body reveals to be false.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> @Hermetica
> There is a lot of enneagram literature that discusses some 3s acting modest at surface because they are very sensitive to the reactions they receive. So they may self-promote in subtle ways, but they also respond to outside input, thus upon realizing they are getting a good reaction in a certain circle or culture by being modest, some 3s will be modest. Or, if they were raised in a family or sub-culture that values modesty, they may take on these traits. Anyone could, but this applies especially to attachment types.


I would love sources for the enneagram literature you speak of. From my research, 3s only become modest when they reach the highest health level (integration). At average to low levels, they engage in "shameless" self-promotional behavior.



Animal said:


> About 5s - Reznor has been in the spotlight all his life, and he does not "just release his art" - he also promotes it all over the place, writes articles about better ways to promote music, talks about why his record company was superior, and on and on.


Trent talks about his art and his ideas to the media, yes, but is he selling or promoting an _image_ or is it only his creations? There's a difference.

I know you consider Marilyn Manson a 4w5 and I think this is where your understanding of 4w5 is a bit skewed -- you see him as the archetypal example of 4w5 and use him as a basis to compare other 4w5s for typing assessments. I, for one, don't consider Manson 4w5. From my research into Manson's background, I found he has more in common with 3 wing than 5 wing. Take Manson's autobiography for example. In his autobiography, he'll describe in graphic detail his so-called reckless sex life with randoms in a bathroom stall. It was part of his image as a rockstar to appeal and attract attention by including risque stories about his wild antics in his book. Of course, it would take years later for him to finally admit in interviews that he was actually a timid guy and that he couldn't have sex with someone unless the lights in the room were turned off -- a stark contrast of the shameless sex fiend that narrated his autobiography. Some of the stories (if not all) in the autobiography were fabricated. It was all to sell himself, sell his image. It was sensationalism and people fell for it. Now if you read one of Leonard Cohen's autobiographical books, you won't find sensationalist storytelling because he's not trying to sell a fabricated shock-jock image for mainstream success. Leonard was just a guy who wrote songs and poetry, played them for people, and then would occasionally disappear off the grid for years to live in solitude on an island in Greece or at a Buddhist monastery. Anytime the media or public wanted too much of Leonard, he'd pack his suitcase and disappear. _That_ is more line with 4w5 behavior than the kind of behavior Marilyn Manson engages in.

Since you brought Trent Reznor up, he spoke up about seeing through Manson's façade.



> Nine Inch Nails frontman Trent Reznor has spoken out against his former protégé Marilyn Manson, calling the shock rocker "a dopey clown" in a new interview with Mojo. According to Spinner, Reznor had some harsh words for the Antichrist Superstar, saying, "*He is a malicious guy and will step on anybody's face to succeed and cross any line of decency*. Seeing him now, drugs and alcohol now rule his life and he's become a dopey clown."
> 
> Reznor indicates tension between the pair began during NIN's The Downward Spiral tour in 1994. "During the Spiral tour we propped them up to get our audience turned on to them and at that time a lot of the people in my circle were pretty far down the road as alcoholics. Not Manson," Reznor told Mojo. "*His drive for success and self-preservation was so high, he pretended to be fucked up a lot when he wasn't*."


So I type Marilyn Manson as 4w3, and you say you relate to him that's why you think you're more 4w5, but from where I'm standing, you relate to him because he's also 4w3. Of course, you can disagree as only you are free to decide what type you are in the end. This is merely an honest assessment of all the information presented.



Animal said:


> I was not talking about style or anything that "shallow," to use your own words. I was talking about an overall _schtick_, which is type related. As in, there will be a disembodied quality to 4s and 5s, a guttish quality to gut types, etc. Typing by photos is about someone's motion, aura, body language etc, it's not about their particular "style."
> 
> There are many threads about visual typing, and disagreement about whether it matters. To me, it can't be ignored. I know that some people have medical conditions (I'm one of them) but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about.. in a photo, you can see if someone has a kind of 'back and forth' nervous quality (a six), etc. People can't hide the vibes they give off. This has nothing to do with the clothes they are wearing.


It was you who said that 4w3s give off a "clean" vibe and that you don't fit that -- you then said you were more like Marilyn Manson who you type as 4w5. What "vibe" is 4w5 then exactly? What "vibe" does Leonard Cohen, Yukio Mishima, and Nick Cave share in common with Marilyn Manson according to your visual reading abilities? I'd like to know.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Leonard Cohen: "I don't feel any compulsion just to stand under the spotlight night after night or year after year unless I have something to say or something new to disclose about my own work."


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> For me it's about that revelation of: THIS. IS. IT. After I hit 4, and 8, and 468, and Sx/Sp.. there was always a moment of "no going back from here." *Something clicked in a deeper way: it was beyond the realm of "this makes sense" and into the realm of "cannot unsee."* *Once it reaches beyond the realm of 'reasons' and makes its way into my unconscious, then there's a "felt sense" that everything clicks together.* The system has to be built first, before I can type myself correctly within it, and when I do have those "moments of revelation," then pieces of the theoretical system tend to fall into place more neatly than before.


"Beyond the realm of reasons." "Felt sense." These aren't the words of a Ti-dom.



Paradigm said:


> Also, ISTP? Really? I like you a lot, but that just seems a crazy typing for you


Yeah, I thought the same thing when she first proposed it too. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Seriously Animal, how are you an ISTP? I've seen your art, your music, and they are not the products of someone with an *inferior* *feeling* function. Your feelings infuse everything you do. The fact that you can't see the contradiction doesn't speak too highly of your Ti, and all the more to your confirmation bias. 

Jung on inferior Fe in Ti-dominant types:



> *The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed.* The various measures of self-defence, the curious protective obstacles with which such people are wont to surround themselves, are sufficiently familiar, and I may, therefore, spare myself a description of them. *They all serve as a defence against 'magical' influences; a vague dread of the other sex also belongs to this category. *


LOL, no...

Same with @*Daeva* as a Type 2. How can I take this typing seriously when you (both) give the same old, song-and-dance about how you *finally *found your/his correct type when you typed before that as 4, 7, 1, 9, 6, and now 2!? You do realize that's over the half the Enneagram now. By the way, I already ate your cookies, and they were delicious. :tongue:


----------



## Animal

@*Hermetica*
Yeah.. my initial thoughts were correct: there's no point engaging because we are discussing two different enneagram systems. I do appreciate your explanations and thoughts though.

I type Leonard Cohen at 4w5, looks included. I don't know the other 4s you listed. And, to reiterate my previous points, Leonard Cohen may fit your descriptions in some ways, but other 4w5s and 5w4s do not. So even if you can find some examples to support your claim, it does not mean the traits you mention are ubiquitous or necessary for someone to be 4w5. 

You can't make a case based on examples and exceptions. The central meaning of a type has to be there, and from there, you can find examples of people who demonstrate that point. Since you and I do not agree on the central meaning of 4, we may not agree on examples either.

Paul Simon is a 4w3 Sp/So who has a modest appearance and is not very showy. He is more similar to Leonard Cohen overall than Marilyn Manson. Why? Instincts, tritype, personal taste.

As for your question - you put "vibe" in quotes, but it's not something as abstract as vibe. There are concrete elements to body language, so this is not about something I 'feel' but rather, traits I have learned to recognize over time. I apologize but I am not going to reveal those here - it is too complex and takes too long for me to teach my entire system to strangers on a forum, especially in a thread where I'm being hit with sarcasm and a sense of being "on trial" rather than genuine curiosity. It will be explained on my website eventually.

@*mistakenforstranger*
Your interpretations of cognitive functions are not worth arguing with either. Believe it or not, I don't care if you "agree" with our typings, and I have no inclination to argue with someone who addresses it with sarcasm and disdain. But thanks for the insulting attempt at feedback.


----------



## Daeva

Hermetica said:


> I, for one, don't consider Manson 4w5. From my research into Manson's background, I found he has more in common with 3 wing than 5 wing.


This right here is what @Animal was talking about from the start. This is a pointless conversation, one where you aren't even in alignment with your precious "sources."

Why even bother?

Oh, does it frighten you that @Animal might be a 4w5 after all? Is it a threat to your self-typing, is that it? lol


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> Same with @*Daeva* as a Type 2. How can I take this typing seriously when you (both) give the same old, song-and-dance about how you *finally *found your/his correct type when you typed before that as 4, 7, 1, 9, 6, and now 2!? You do realize that's over the half the Enneagram now. By the way, I already ate your cookies, and they were delicious. :tongue:


Then don't take it seriously.
I don't take your interpretation of both the Enneagram and the functions seriously either.

Go on then, think of me as a 6. What difference does your opinion make?


----------



## Asd456

Hermetica said:


> From my research, 3s only become modest when they reach the highest health level (integration). At average to low levels, they engage in "shameless" self-promotional behavior.


Uh, no. Where are you getting your research? A, that's a generalization. B, are you aware of the counter-types? C, are you familiar with the type 3 Sp subtype? "Only modest when they reach the highest health level" and "engage in shameless self-promotional behavior at average to low levels" - not true at all for the type 3 Sp subtype.

If you are familiar with the counter-types, the above is self-explanatory. 




mistakenforstranger said:


> Same with @*Daeva* as a Type 2. How can I take this typing seriously when you (both) give the same old, song-and-dance about how you *finally *found your/his correct type when you typed before that as 4, 7, 1, 9, 6, and now 2!? You do realize that's over the half the Enneagram now. By the way, I already ate your cookies, and they were delicious. :tongue:


Why do you care? Honestly, your antagonism is unnecessary. :wink:


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

GENTLY honest.


----------



## Animal

@*Paradigm*
Your thoughts inspired me to do a write-up on the origins of modesty for my website. I have decided not to share such thoughts here because then my ideas are the intellectual property of perc, which pisses me off. But I figured I'd post this publicly because I want to make it clear to you, and to everyone else, that there is more behind my skepticism about the automatic association with "bragging" and type 3. I may very well be 4w3, so this is not about my type, but rather, the angle through which I view ideas like this.

In short - modesty is a culturally inspired show, aiding various agendas.
Long story when I can get the site up and running.

I want you to know I'm not dismissing your thoughts.


----------



## drmiller100

Animal said:


> @*Paradigm*
> Your thoughts inspired me to do a write-up on the origins of modesty for my website. I have decided not to share such thoughts here because then my ideas are the intellectual property of perc, which pisses me off. But I figured I'd post this publicly because I want to make it clear to you, and to everyone else, that there is more behind my skepticism about the automatic association with "bragging" and type 3. I may very well be 4w3, so this is not about my type, but rather, the angle through which I view ideas like this.
> 
> In short - modesty is a culturally inspired show, aiding various agendas.
> Long story when I can get the site up and running.
> 
> I want you to know I'm not dismissing your thoughts.


when you get the site up I'd be grateful for a link.

fwiw, I know quite a few 3's who don't brag, and are actually modest. One of the strongest healthiest examples is my old boss. She was CLEARLY a 3, and desired to appear to be competent. A bigger deal was she HATED to be back stabbed. I could go to her office, close the door, and we could have a pretty vehement disagreement. We'd always figure something out. But I knew when I walked out of her office not to talk shit behind her back.

I think some personalities are "big enough" to have both wings. They actually sit in the middle of their type, and pull and use both wings strengths when they want. Animal, you obviously can do 5 stuff, and I think you also do healthy 3 stuff.

I'm not buying the ISTP. I think the Fi is so innately ingrained into you it is invisible to you - like you can no longer hear your heartbeat. 
My Ne is that way for me.


----------



## Animal

drmiller100 said:


> when you get the site up I'd be grateful for a link.
> 
> fwiw, I know quite a few 3's who don't brag, and are actually modest. One of the strongest healthiest examples is my old boss. She was CLEARLY a 3, and desired to appear to be competent. A bigger deal was she HATED to be back stabbed. I could go to her office, close the door, and we could have a pretty vehement disagreement. We'd always figure something out. But I knew when I walked out of her office not to talk shit behind her back.
> 
> I think some personalities are "big enough" to have both wings. They actually sit in the middle of their type, and pull and use both wings strengths when they want. Animal, you obviously can do 5 stuff, and I think you also do healthy 3 stuff.


Yes! I have met 3s like this too.



> I'm not buying the ISTP. I think the Fi is so innately ingrained into you it is invisible to you - like you can no longer hear your heartbeat.
> My Ne is that way for me.


A major expert from Russia made a strong case that the "so ingrained I take it for granted" function was Ti. 
But yeah, it's going to be ISXP. I haven't ruled out ISFP completely yet.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Asd456 said:


> Uh, no. Where are you getting your research? A, that's a generalization. B, are you aware of the counter-types? C, are you familiar with the type 3 Sp subtype? "Only modest when they reach the highest health level" and "engage in shameless self-promotional behavior at average to low levels" - not true at all for the type 3 Sp subtype.
> 
> If you are familiar with the counter-types, the above is self-explanatory.


I'm discussing core types. Why are counter-types suddenly relevant to the discussion at hand? What does counter-type have to do with Animal or Marilyn Manson's type in the argument I just outlined? Can we skip the straw man arguments?

But since you asked anyway,


* *






Riso Hudson said:


> Type Three—Levels of Development
> 
> Health Levels
> 
> Level 1 (At Their Best): Self-accepting, inner-directed, and authentic, everything they seem to be. *Modest* and charitable, self-deprecatory humor and a fullness of heart emerge. Gentle and benevolent.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Level 6: Want to impress others with their superiority: *constantly promoting themselves*, making themselves sound better than they really are. Narcissistic, with grandiose, inflated notions about themselves and their talents. Exhibitionistic and seductive, as if saying "Look at me!" Arrogance and contempt for others is a defense against feeling jealous of others and their success.





Helen Palmer said:


> Enneagram type 3s are the "human doings" of the enneagram. They set goals and work toward them. They are able to set their feelings aside and just get the job done. Being in the center of the feeling triad, they are the most out of touch with their heart feelings. Thinking and doing take center stage. *Threes are very good at self-promotion*, and adjust themselves and their personalities to meet the needs of their target audiences. Image is very important, and Threes maintain a smooth, competent façade, even when their inner worlds are falling apart.





Margaret Frings Keyes said:


> Point Three: The Program of Achievement with Emphasis on Image
> 
> Talk Style: *Self-promotion*





The Fauvres said:


> Enneagram Type 3: Performer, Motivator, Achiever, Producer or Status Seeker
> 
> [...]
> 
> *Vice*
> Your vice is vanity. *You have a tendency to be overly self-promoting*. You can confuse your image with who you really are, engaging in a form self-deception. As you push harder and harder to complete tasks, you may even appear robot-like because you have begun treating yourself like a machine. Trying to stand out and be number one can be exhausting for you. It can also be hard to ask for help or pay attention to your deeper feelings. You may feel like you always have to greet the world with a smile so that people will smile at you. You also want others to admire you and tell you that you have done a good job.





MBTI Enthusiast said:


> One way to type those around you is to examine their Enneagram talk style. Each type has a unique approach to speaking and writing, which can be picked up on in a matter of minutes. The following is a list of each type and their general mode of communication:
> 
> [...]
> 
> TYPE 3: SALES PITCHES/PROPAGANDA/*SELF-PROMOTION*
> *Promoting*, advertising, performing, exclaiming, motivational speeches, success stories
> Self-talk: ‘Watch me shine’





> *Naranjo's Character and Neurosis: Vanity, Inauthenticity & The Marketing Orientation - ENNEA-TYPE 3*
> 
> [...]
> 
> Another important trait within this personality syndrome that stands out as a means to achievement and winning is competitiveness—a trait connected in turn to ruthlessness, to the cultivation of efficiency, and to the use of deception, bluffing, *self-promotion*, slander, and other behaviors discussed below under “image manipulation."





Typology Central said:


> Threes and Ones are both oriented towards an ideal, detach from emotions under stress and can be workaholics. Typically, it is Threes who mistype or are mistyped as Ones. But *Threes are much more comfortable with self-presentation and self-promotion* than are Ones who often find these things to be difficult or impossible. Ones are seldom as acutely aware of the image they are projecting than are Threes.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Intellectual Threes can mistype as Fives, although Fives recognize their self-consciousness and are unlikely to mistype as Threes. Threes have an exuberant self-confident belief in their own abilities that doesn’t come naturally to Fives. They can much more readily take on a leadership role and *tend to be more self-promotional* than Fives.
> 
> Threes and Sixes can both be successful and image conscious, but Threes are far more self-confident and *comfortable with self-promotion* than Sixes. Sixes are more anxious than Threes and are not as optimistic about future prospects as are Threes.





[HR][/HR]



Animal said:


> I type Leonard Cohen at 4w5, looks included. I don't know the other 4s you listed. And, to reiterate my previous points, Leonard Cohen may fit your descriptions in some ways, but other 4w5s and 5w4s do not. So even if you can find some examples to support your claim, it does not mean the traits you mention are ubiquitous or necessary for someone to be 4w5.


You skipped the entire paragraph where I described how Marilyn Manson's autobiography is sensationalist storytelling made to promote and sell a false image. Also the part where Trent Reznor says Manson would step on anybody to get success and that he was faking a persona even around fellow musicians. Unless you can name another 4w5 artist who fabricates sensational stories about himself to promote an image that will sell and then tries to get the public to believe that those lies accurately reflect who he is, then by all means... until then Marilyn Manson is a clear cut 4w3 through-and-through.



Hermetica said:


> I know you consider Marilyn Manson a 4w5 and I think this is where your understanding of 4w5 is a bit skewed -- you see him as the archetypal example of 4w5 and use him as a basis to compare other 4w5s for typing assessments. I, for one, don't consider Manson 4w5. From my research into Manson's background, I found he has more in common with 3 wing than 5 wing. *Take Manson's autobiography for example. In his autobiography, he'll describe in graphic detail his so-called reckless sex life with randoms in a bathroom stall. It was part of his image as a rockstar to appeal and attract attention by including risque stories about his wild antics in his book. Of course, it would take years later for him to finally admit in interviews that he was actually a timid guy and that he couldn't have sex with someone unless the lights in the room were turned off -- a stark contrast of the shameless sex fiend that narrated his autobiography. Some of the stories (if not all) in the autobiography were fabricated. It was all to sell himself, sell his image. It was sensationalism and people fell for it*.





> *Kerrang! Magazine - Nine Inch Nails Interview - July 2000*
> 
> *Mr. Manson has been very vocal in re-telling the story of one particular incident* from that NIN/Manson tour - when Manson allegedly gave Robin Finck a blow job onstage in Florida.
> 
> "*Oh, Manson's quite a sensationalist*," Robin sighs, the mildest hint of colour reddening his pallid complexion. "*I wouldn't believe everything he says*."





> Following the release of "The Long Hard Road Out of Hell", various people described in the book came forth explaining that *Manson had fabricated certain passages detailing his encounters with them*. A month after the release of the book, on May 11, 1999 Rock N Roll Experience Magazine held an interview with Gidget Gein, where he explained about the sections describing him that, "*pretty much none of it [was true], I mean it's all either exaggerated, or, like a lot of the stuff that he wrote, it sorta happened, but he wasn't there*."


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Hermetica, I don't know Marilyn Manson but, the excerpts you have been sharing about him does sound like he has, at the very least, a strong 3 influence. I couldn't imagine making up lies like that. To be completely honest, people who manufacture things about who they are, have always baffled me.


----------



## Animal

@*Hermetica* @*Rose for a Heart*
I don't make up lies either. Neither does my 3w2 friend - she is very honest. That is not type related.

@*Hermetica* 
I didn't skip anything. Like I said, I don't agree with the distinctions you're making and don't see the point in arguing about it since we are talking about two different systems. In order to debunk the "3 wingers are willing to lie and promote themselves, and 5 wingers aren't" argument, I would have to spend hours, days or possibly months of my time, and I don't get the sense that you are willing to look outside your own ideas anyway. So I am not going to engage this argument with you.


@*Rose for a Heart*
I appreciate your ideas on 4 in general, though I disagree with some. Being correctly typed as a 4 doesn't mean that someone "understands 4" or all the different ways it can manifest - it's a learning process. I include myself in this. I'm not The Authority on 4, neither are you, or anyone here. I am in the process of engaging very serious studies elsewhere which are showing me realistic trends in how types manifest in different people, and that is where my ideas emerge from.

I will link my articles on the topic here, because I hope to debunk this thoroughly in another context. I'd be very curious for your input.


----------



## Asd456

Hermetica said:


> I'm discussing core types. Why are counter-types suddenly relevant to the discussion at hand?


If you're discussing core types... why are you arguing if @Animal is a wing 3 or 5? Are we talking about core types or arguing if someone is a wing 3 or wing 5 here? :laughing:

As much as I appreciate data, everything above is irrelevant if you take into account counter-types. If you're still confused, there's a lot of information about subtypes from Naranjo and Chestnut - I suggest you start there.


----------



## Animal

This argument, right now, is based on:
4w5s and 5s are honest and don't skew the story to sell themselves
4w3s and 3s are lying bastards who just make shit up

This is not an accurate portrayal of enneagram motivations, and demonstrates that a basic understanding of the enneagram is lacking.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Animal said:


> This argument, right now, is based on:
> 4w5s and 5s are honest and don't skew the story to sell themselves
> 4w3s and 3s are lying bastards who just make shit up


I specifically said "3 influence" instead of suggesting any wing. "Lying" was a harsh word to use, _and I am not saying all 3s do this_, but they do tend to embellish things, and mistake_ who they want to be with who they are_. In which case suggesting they are lying should hit right at the heart of their most vulnerable spot. But I do still stand by it. As that is how I perceive it.


----------



## Animal

Rose for a Heart said:


> I specifically said "3 influence" instead of suggesting any wing. "Lying" was a harsh word to use, _and I am not saying all 3s do this_, but they do tend to embellish things, and mistake_ who they want to be with who they are_. In which case suggesting they are lying should hit right at the heart of their most vulnerable spot. But I do still stand by it. As that is how I perceive it.


I was talking to @Hermetica , not you.

I disagree with the assertion that 4w5s, by design, cannot embellish things. They are image types, but that aside, most people embellish things and nobody is capable of telling absolute truth at all times, without bias. Every enneagram type will lie, embellish, evade, exploit, manipulate and maneuver for different reasons, so pinning this on 3 is incorrect.

5s are known to be arrogant about their ideas, too, so drawing a distinction between 3 and 5 based on boating and bragging is not accurate, based on my experience.

Anyway, my original post was not addressed to you, it was about the argument being made about Marilyn Manson and the reasons he can't be a 4w5. I cannot argue about Manson with someone who presents an entirely different enneagram than the one I've studied for more than a decade.


----------



## Animal

Rose for a Heart said:


> they do tend to embellish things, and mistake_ who they want to be with who they are_


This is the central theme running through the entire image triad. The 4 - including 4w5 - also identifies with their own defective self-image and mistakes it for who they are.

If I recall correctly, we discussed this at length last time I was posting here. We discussed how 4s may identify with the idea of an authentic self-image, but it is not truly authentic, because identifying with any image at all is still 'creating an image' rather than simply _being_.

Without this component _as a central life-long theme_, the person in question is not an image type.


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## Rose for a Heart

Animal said:


> This is the central theme running through the entire image triad. The 4 - including 4w5 - also identifies with their own defective self-image and mistakes it for who they are.
> 
> Without this component _as a central life-long theme_, the person in question is not an image type.


Embellish as in make themselves look better to others, which I wouldn't associate with 4. Not saying they can't do it, but it doesn't really have to do with 4 as a type. I do see where @Hermetica is coming from. And the examples of Marilyn Manson they shared, showing how far he can go to embellish things, just so he looks good to others - I could never do that. Not even close. His embellishment is not "ordinary," it's an obvious personality trait that not everyone shares. And I am inclined to connect that with a 3 influence.


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## drmiller100

Rose for a Heart said:


> I specifically said "3 influence" instead of suggesting any wing. "Lying" was a harsh word to use, _and I am not saying all 3s do this_, but they do tend to embellish things, and mistake_ who they want to be with who they are_. In which case suggesting they are lying should hit right at the heart of their most vulnerable spot. But I do still stand by it. As that is how I perceive it.


Your perception of this issue is unique unto yourself.


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> @*Paradigm*
> Your thoughts inspired me to do a write-up on the origins of modesty for my website. I have decided not to share such thoughts here because then my ideas are the intellectual property of perc, which pisses me off. But I figured I'd post this publicly because I want to make it clear to you, and to everyone else, that there is more behind my skepticism about the automatic association with "bragging" and type 3. I may very well be 4w3, so this is not about my type, but rather, the angle through which I view ideas like this.
> 
> In short - modesty is a culturally inspired show, aiding various agendas.
> Long story when I can get the site up and running.
> 
> I want you to know I'm not dismissing your thoughts.


I feel like this interpretation/concept is very far off from what I intended to say, but I'd be happy to read your thoughts whenever.

Mainly, I don't associate "self-promotion" with "bragging" or "being immodest," so please don't think that's what I meant.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> I feel like this interpretation/concept is very far off from what I intended to say, but I'd be happy to read your thoughts whenever.
> 
> Mainly, I don't associate "self-promotion" with "bragging" or "being immodest," so please don't think that's what I meant.


Ahh I see.. yeah, that makes sense.  I was lumping a lot of reactions to posts together there. I appreciate the clarification though. You have always been thoughtful about that in the past.

I do take this to heart and I do think that, in the way you specifically present it, it does make a great case for 4w3. I appreciate the reminder tremendously. I'll do my debunking article for my own purposes, but your point is a very good one. 

I disagree with some of the additional interpretations of types and wings here, but not yours, if I catch your meaning. That distinction makes it clear and it's consistent with what you have told me in the past.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

drmiller100 said:


> Your perception of this issue is unique unto yourself.


I wouldn't say so; there are definitely people who agree. Anyways, I wasn't trying to insult 3s by saying that they all lie, because I don't think that. But in cases like Marilyn Manson, where the fabrication is glaringly obvious, I _do _associate that kind of behavior with type 3. I wouldn't expect most 3s to be that extreme though.


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## Dangerose

Not up on/interested in conversation at hand (lol I tried to read it but felt like I was missing something)
This is just about me :star:

Been wondering if I'm 2w3 instead of 2w1, discussion of modesty/lying sorta reminded me

I type at 2w1 mostly because I really admire 1s lol, but I'm not sure if I'm actually all that 1ish
Always related to perfection-seeking part of 1 but more perfection as beauty, it seems ridiculous to me to be angry at the world being broken or something

But 3 - I'm very sensitive to how people see me, think more than a 2 alone would be? Like...receiving negative feedback really fucks me up, tend to self-sabotage the moment there's a little bit of a chance of failure

Conversation with mother, posting both for clash of my self-image and mother's image of me and for what I said:


* *

































But when I was a kid, I just thrived off of getting feedback, love feedback so much, I loved idea of doing something 'perfectly' but I think it was more 3ish other-focused version of perfect, would daydream about getting really strict teachers I'd have to work to impress, would always make up imaginary academies for things that had specific levels that I had to reach, etc.) Still have that actually

But also lying, maybe not all 3s lie, I'll buy that, but when I was younger especially I had a huge problem with lying, now I try not to
I liked seeing if I could trick people, and I wanted people to see me differently from how I was I guess, but I'd even just slip inocuous lies into conversation to see if I could get away with them, not even tempted to do that anymore, but I do like to stay slippery, I don't want people to have my full biography, hate 'getting-to-know-you' questions, I want people to be guessing what country I'm from and that kind of thing

I mean it used to be if I was talking to a stranger I'd never tell them my real name or any of my real information, in elementary school I'd always tell weird lies to my friends (remember a friend talking to my mother about our goat farm that we didn't have lol, she didn't let me get away with it haha)

Not technically self-promoting, come off pretty modest, in most social situations I'm almost physically unable to not be



Animal said:


> @Hermetica
> There is a lot of enneagram literature that discusses some 3s acting modest at surface because they are very sensitive to the reactions they receive. So they may self-promote in subtle ways, but they also respond to outside input, thus upon realizing they are getting a good reaction in a certain circle or culture by being modest, some 3s will be modest. Or, if they were raised in a family or sub-culture that values modesty, they may take on these traits. Anyone could, but this applies especially to attachment types.


Kinda un-3, don't think I really absorbed many of my family's values
I'm kinda ridiculously modest and self-effacing but this isn't something my family values or shows I think, definitely not to the extent I am
When I compare myself to my little brother who I think is a 3 he really does reflect my family's values much more than I do
I have values and sort-of my own 'cultural code' but I don't really know where it came from :/ Like...maybe the books I read but not really...definitely not my peers...there's definitely a disconnect with my actual family
I feel like I came from a culture where you're not allowed to brag about yourself, but I didn't lol

I don't feel cool enough to be w3 I guess...I mean literally I guess but also like...not glossy or made-up enough, I definitely come off as weirdly honest, too present almost

And even for a 2 I fade into the background almost too much I think

but it also makes sense in some ways and I'm not sure how much genuine 1 there is in me 

Thoughts?


----------



## Dangerose

I mean, I'm very afraid of overselling myself and then disappointing people haha


----------



## drmiller100

Rose for a Heart said:


> I wouldn't say so; there are definitely people who agree. Anyways, I wasn't trying to insult 3s by saying that they all lie, because I don't think that. But in cases like Marilyn Manson, where the fabrication is glaringly obvious, I _do _associate that kind of behavior with type 3. I wouldn't expect most 3s to be that extreme though.


Fascinating. So if i have it right, any time you see lying and self inflation you associate it with 3. And you are willing to take blatantly horrible, messed up people and use those examples to broadbrush many type 3's like this.

This seems illogical, and solely based on your internal framework of feelings. 

Do all INFP 4w5's do this, or just most?


----------



## Immolate

On the subject of 3s...

I'd like to revisit the possibility of 3w4, as was suggested to me on this thread. Where should I start? What should I consider?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Just wanted to say:* the vice of type 3 is deceit*. I did not come up with that either; it's already established. 

It's not to say that who they are doesn't matter or shouldn't be seen. 

I have observed, throughout my life, some people who are willing to lie about the smallest things, pretty much daily. My brother used to be like that, but he doesn't do that anymore. And he isn't unhealthy or pathological in any sense. He has a strong 3 fix. Those things however, may not be "small" to him, and I acknowledge that. Anyways, I have never had any such instinct (to create a favorable and high-achieving persona through any means necessary), and I do tend to associate his behavior, as well as MM's with type 3.

But perhaps I should withdraw from the argument because it seems like I am upsetting people and that was not my intention. It's likely what I say sounds harsh because I cannot understand type 3s from a level of actual experience. So I will just leave it at this.


----------



## owlet

@Rose for a Heart

This is just to compare a final paragraph on both type 3 and type 4 off the enneagram institute website:



> Threes report that when they realize to what extent they have adapted their lives to the expectations of others, the question arises, “Well, then, what do I want?” They often simply did not know; it was not a question that had ever come up before. Thus, the fundamental dilemma of Threes is that they have not been allowed to be who they really are and to manifest their own authentic qualities. At a young age, they got the message that they were not allowed to have feelings and be themselves:* they must, in effect, be someone else to be accepted*. To some degree, all of the personality types have been sent the same message, but because of their particular background and makeup, Threes not only heard it, they began to live by it. The attention they received by performing in a certain way was their oxygen, and they needed it to breathe. Unfortunately, it came at a high price.





> Fours are in the same predicament. As long as they believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with them, they cannot allow themselves to experience or enjoy their many good qualities. To acknowledge their good qualities would be to lose their sense of identity (as a suffering victim) and to be without a relatively consistent personal identity (their Basic Fear). *Fours grow by learning to see that much of their story is not true*—or at least it is not true any more. The old feelings begin to fall away once they stop telling themselves their old tale: it is irrelevant to who they are right now.


Regardless, all types are deceitful towards themselves and others at times - or at least, they're as deceitful as each other. 5s deceive themselves into thinking having knowledge to deal with situations will ensure their safety and can deceive others through taking their knowledge while giving nothing in return, or type 9 can deceive themselves and others into believing they're not angry when they in fact are. It's reductive to say 'type 3 is deceitful' without looking into it more. Everyone can be deceitful. With type 3, it's that they believe they need to demonstrate their success in an overt and noticeable way (at average/lower levels of health) in order to receive acknowledgement and feel they have worth.


----------



## Immolate

Rose for a Heart said:


> But perhaps I should withdraw from the argument because it seems like I am upsetting people and that was not my intention. It's likely what I say sounds harsh because I cannot understand type 3s from a level of actual experience. So I will just leave it at this.


Feel free to approach me.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Animal said:


> This is the central theme running through the entire image triad. The 4 - including 4w5 - also identifies with their own defective self-image and mistakes it for who they are.
> 
> If I recall correctly, we discussed this at length last time I was posting here. We discussed how 4s may identify with the idea of an authentic self-image, but it is not truly authentic, because identifying with any image at all is still 'creating an image' rather than simply _being_.
> 
> Without this component _as a central life-long theme_, the person in question is not an image type.


Every time I read your words about Image types in general, @Animal, I feel that you describe me in a way. My image is something I consider all the time, but in the oddest way.

It reminds me of something I was saying to @Immolate earlier. I create a narrative. I have learned more and more that I do this, exaggerating and embellishing both my strengths and my flaws. I can no more stop being aware of how I seem to be than I could stop breathing. It's why I ask others how I come across to them, too.

And get me into a strategy game, and watch the sparks fly as I formulate master plans...and for some reason after I have won I feel the need to talk about what my plans were, what countermoves I was going to employ in response to the moves I expected from them, and so on. As a GM I feel the need to tell my players at the end of the adventure how it COULD have gone at crucial decision points had they done somewhat different. Airing out the best and worst part of my plans is something I really like doing. There is a...feeling that I have done good as a strategist or done well as a GM if I can show a full understanding. Being adaptable and knowledgeable is all tied up in my identity in ways that stretch deep out of sight, a rabbit hole that deepens every time I peer in.

Another thing. I remember being incredibly offended when someone said to me that a mutual friend of ours was more intelligent than me. I immediately wanted to disprove that on the spot, to show that this was not true. I think I found it most offensive because that other person is a head-in-the-clouds academic who consistently dreams up big plans and then doesn't pursue them or does so half assedly, then claims to have achieved the thing when he has done no such thing. I see the lies and claims to intellect he has. So being told I am less than THAT is infuriating. I didn't confront her on it at the time because there was no way to really broach the topic, especially since we were surrounded by people, including the guy she was talking about. After the anger cooled, though, I still never brought it up...because I was no longer certain that she was wrong. Dude may have faults, but he learns really quick when he actually applies himself.

I veer between pride in my abilities, the things that I struggled to take from a life of poverty and oppression...and despair that I have built myself up into an ivory tower of lies. A long time ago, when I was a little boy, my mother would tell me all about my talents. She would tell me that I was born ambidextrous, that I was walking at six months old, holding conversations at the supermarket at 10 months old...The stories go on. I remember rejecting these things, this attempt to tell me what my talents are, and never really believe her on 90% of the things. I needed to prove everything to myself. That's not me, I would think to myself, as she went on and on about how special I am.
My lies:
"I'm much more realistic than that."
"I'm a straightforward thinker, not some artsy natural genius"
"I wrote a story about WHAT? That's disgusting."
"If I am so ambidextrous, why do I struggle so hard to write with my left? Muscle development you say? Ehhh..." (-note, rejected perfectly reasonable statement in favor of continuing to doubt her narrative that disagree with mine)
"I'm not interested in politics. I'll probably be a game designer or something. Something technical" (Zoom to today, a politics aficionado and studying psychology and neurology)

I couldn't be told who I am, basically. No one else's view was good enough. The sheer arrogance I have! So instead, I went and cultivated myself. I read hundreds of books, researched the religions, wrote my own stories, studied hard. I found that school was a joke, I was way too intelligent for my peers. There was no one around like me, no one that could keep up, and I was fine with that. I retreated, and it was more relief than despair. I didn't need others. There is more than enough to learn in my own mind.

It has been a long journey for me. One by one, each of the stories my mother told me appear to be true. I learned that I am indeed ambidextrous, still. For years I only noticed that I use my right to write, and assumed I am really right handed. But then I noticed the little things, like that I open doors with the opposite hand of everyone else, that I carry items in my right hand when most people want to leave their dominant hand free. I can't deny that my skill with the left is entirely too developed for supposedly being right handed. Today, I throw a basketball better left handed, despite using my right throughout all of middle and high school. Each hand is better suited for a list of things, varying by muscle development and whatever part of it is natural. I can't keep lying to myself about this.

My father had left early on, and I reconnected with him two years ago. I asked him about what I was like when I was little, and he has retold almost all of my mom's stories. My aunts agree. The stupendous stories, that even scholars of child development have scoffed at, seem to be true. Probably exaggerated, of course. I am some sort of child prodigy, apparently, and yet I cannot even graduate from high school? What bullshit is this? So much potential but I lose it all to depression and apathy? It's a fucking joke. Apparently I could handle it before, but once I wasn't desperately resisting anything any more I'm just sort of bleh.

So what type hears the feedback of others, hears that they are special, and denies it - but then goes on to believe they are special in hundreds of other ways? What type needs to be special ONLY ON THEIR OWN TERMS? Is begrudging of anyone else understanding them, knowing their limits and even their strengths, and would prefer to be utterly mysterious, in control of what is known about them? What type feels like the best thing to do is be worth something by being entirely self sufficient, to keep it together at all costs, to show nothing that is unearned to the world, to show that they are strong enough to handle any load that comes their way...even while they are weeping inside? To be an enigma, a stranger with all his cards held close, one whose trust must be EARNED.

If I understand correctly, it would have to be one of the two I have been stuck at for so long. 4 or 5.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> This argument, right now, is based on:
> 4w5s and 5s are honest and don't skew the story to sell themselves
> 4w3s and 3s are lying bastards who just make shit up
> 
> This is not an accurate portrayal of enneagram motivations, and demonstrates that a basic understanding of the enneagram is lacking.


Different types lie, yes, this is true. But the point you seem to be missing is _not_ the action of lying itself that determines whether someone is a 3. It is the _motivation_ behind the lie. The question of, what purpose is being served by the lie? When Kim Kardashian lies about something in the media, the motivation is almost always to get the people talking about her. She treats her cult of personality like a business. Positive attention or negative attention... it's all part of the marketing scheme behind her personality.

Marilyn Manson understands this about the cult of personality. His lies are opportunistic, career-boosting. The lies from the book feed into the "outrageous" Marilyn Manson persona that has garnered him widespread attention and success.










A 5 will lie for completely different reasons. It's their ideas/intellect that they may lie about, because it is within the area of intellect where 5s are most vulnerable -- the fear of being seen as intellectually inferior to others. The motivation behind the lies are _not_ to sell their personality/persona as a brand for success.

Wings are an added flavor to the core behavior. 4w5s have a wing that belongs in the fear triad, so 4w5s don't just struggle with the usual 4 things like worthlessness and what have you, they also struggle with a fear that they are intellectually inferior to others. The patterned behaviors we engage in are often times driven by those factors, those fears. When we are hit with a heavy sense of inferiority over our image and intellect, we might withdraw into isolation to brush up on our knowledge or it spirals out of control into a deep cycle of self-loathing over this inferiority until we a) break that cycle or b) end our lives.

The notoriously reclusive Marlon Brando, a 4w5 actor, speaks of this experience:



> Marlon Brando: I was always somebody who had unquenchable curiosity about people. I liked to walk down the street and look at faces. I used to go into corner of Broadway and 42nd street in an optimal cigar store. I would watch people for three seconds as they went by and tried to analyze their personalities by just that flick. The face can hide many things and people are always hiding things. I was always interested to guess the things that people did not know about themselves: what they feel, what they think, why they feel, how is it that we behave the way we do? What is the answer? Is there any answer? There's something that you *need* very deeply -- some kind of contact. Some experience to give you some sense of fulfillment. *I had a great feeling of inadequacy that I didn't know enough, that I didn't have enough education. I felt... dumb*.


 @Animal I believe it was you who once told me that in order to fully grasp the basics of one's own type, there needs to be a willingness to accept the "ugly parts" or "shadow" of one's type. 4w3s have their own specific brand of ugliness, as do 4w5s, 3w4s, 3w2s, and so on. No one said that 4w5s are exempt from that ugliness. But Marilyn Manson's patterned behaviors are the "ugly parts" of 4w3, not 4w5. And you haven't just heard it from me, but from other 4w5s on this forum. What you choose to do with this information is up to you.


----------



## Asd456

I think people should just focus on the core type as it is more significant rather overemphasizing their wing. Who cares if you are a wing this or a wing that? I mean, some people even report the wing doesn't matter because it doesn't make a difference as it's not applicable 100%; some report that they are healthy in terms of both wings. Your core fear doesn't change for your core type, so the overemphasis on your wing is irrelevant to me. Sure, it adds some nuance, but tritype as well, also your stacking, and subtype. My thinking is that you should focus on the tangible, which is your core type, stacking, and subtype. Sure, stacking and subtype descriptions are faulty as well, but it's applicable to everyone. Just my two cents, of course.


----------



## Animal

Asd456 said:


> I think people should just focus on the core type as it is more significant rather overemphasizing their wing. Who cares if you are a wing this or a wing that? I mean, some people even report the wing doesn't matter because it doesn't make a difference as it's not applicable 100%; some report that they are healthy in terms of both wings. Your core fear doesn't change for your core type, so the overemphasis on your wing is irrelevant to me. Sure, it adds some nuance, but tritype as well, also your stacking, and subtype. My thinking is that you should focus on the tangible, which is your core type, stacking, and subtype. Sure, stacking and subtype descriptions are faulty as well, but it's applicable to everyone. Just my two cents, of course.


Yes, I agree. I think some of the drastic distinctions here, being made between 4w3 and 4w5, are overkill.
It's a flavor at best.


_______
My opinion is that some of the more reasonable posts here were intended to help me rethink my wing by offering thoughts on how my personality appears from an outside perspective. Others were more defensive, as if the posters wrote them more to defend their self-typing than to help me. Because me sharing a type with them is a threat to their self-typing, since I am nothing like them. So in order to retain credibility for their self-typing, they had to draw a very drastic line between me and them, and if I share a wing, that contrast they were clinging to before, disappears.

I could be wrong but that's the impression I get. Smells like bullshit, looks like bullshit, it is probably bullshit.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

One thing that also can confuse things is that cognitive functions influence how Enneagram manifests, even if some people try to see them as totally different. They handle different aspects, but those mechanisms don't exist in a vacuum. So with this stuff about 4w3 and 4w5, I've noticed that they also type as NFs, while @Animal types as a higher Se user, therefore the whole reclusive stuff may be just an INFP or INFJ thing and not totally related to have a stronger withdrawn influence. ISXPs deal with issues differently, so I bet this is throwing a monkey wrench, same for different stackings.


----------



## Animal

Marilyn Manson met with Russ Hudson in person at an enneagram conference, was typed at Social 4w5, and cried.
I am amused that the same people who ask me for sources for my arguments about 3 would turn around and ignore Russ Hudson and Marilyn Manson's agreement on his type and wing.


----------



## Animal

Dragheart Luard said:


> One thing that also can confuse things is that cognitive functions influence how Enneagram manifests, even if some people try to see them as totally different. They handle different aspects, but those mechanisms don't exist in a vacuum. So with this stuff about 4w3 and 4w5, I've noticed that they also type as NFs, while @*Animal* types as a higher Se user, therefore the whole reclusive stuff may be just an INFP or INFJ thing and not totally related to have a stronger withdrawn influence. ISXPs deal with issues differently, so I bet this is throwing a monkey wrench, same for different stackings.


Yes, this is an excellent point. I am also Sx/Sp and 468 which makes for a particularly "fiery, reactive, in your face" personality. Then add Se to that.....


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Animal said:


> Yes, this is an excellent point. I am also Sx/Sp and 468 which makes for a particularly "fiery, reactive, in your face" personality. Then add Se to that.....


Yeah, while the other 4w5s have more type 1 or 9 influences, which tone down this and can cause lots of confusion. This plus being NFs will change things a lot. So really it's better to factor other variables as core type can be distorted by them, specially while focusing on traits and not what really is going on deep down.


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## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> Marilyn Manson met with Russ Hudson in person at an enneagram conference, was typed at Social 4w5, and cried.
> I am amused that the same people who ask me for sources for my arguments about 3 would turn around and ignore Russ Hudson and Marilyn Manson's agreement on his type and wing.


I think what some people misunderstand about 3s, is not that they* are* selling but *what* they are selling. This confusion results from the fact that every type is selling *something*;it's just what 4s, 5, and any other type happen to be "*selling*", are just very different.


----------



## Purrfessor

Chesire Tower said:


> I think what some people misunderstand about 3s, is not that they* are* selling but *what* they are selling. This confusion results from the fact that every type is selling *something*;it's just what 4s, 5, and any other type happen to be "*selling*", are just very different.


So what's your type if you sell seashells by the seashore? Been trying to type this Sally bitch for some time now.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I don't know if it's a personality clash, but people are completely shedding the context and then saying I, or others on my side aren't providing the context to begin with. Deceit has clearly been talked about in the context of type 3, their image issues, their tendency to brag and inflate who they are for their image, and the consistent deceit - on every single level, even the most basic ones. 
@owlet you seem to want to equalize things a lot, and I don't want to do that. it doesn't really help with determining truth. 

I will also not be replying to anyone who accuses me of hating all 3s. I don't hate types, I just dislike certain behaviors. 

My brother has a strong 3 fix, and this is his genuine opinion on this. I did not coax him into saying any of this. it's all him: 


> Type 3s are masters of lying to themselves while lying to others. They consciously believe almost everything that they are saying, even if subconsciously they know it's a lie. Like, if basically if you do well in something, you exaggerate it to make it seem better. Also, if you do bad in something, then you cover it up by not being very specific about how bad you did. Because you think everyone is going to think you failed at something. And, also you tend to say that other people did worse than you did, so that relative to other people you look better still.
> 
> It feels really, really bad to be a failure in eyes of others. It feels you're more insignificant and disappointing than how you used to be. It sucks.
> 
> If the reality clashes with your image too acutely, you feel the effects more strongly because it feels like basically falsifying everything you have created. And that's scary. it's like losing your identity.


----------



## Immolate

Rose for a Heart said:


> I will also not be replying to anyone who accuses me of hating all 3s. I don't hate types, I just dislike certain behaviors.


I've made no such accusations, to be clear.


----------



## Purrfessor

Also just want to quickly jive in that yes Deceit is attached to 3s as their vice, but I think what their true vice is is rather "insincerity" - they can be rather wishy washy, unopinionated, and hence lose track of having a sincere foundation which can lead to deceit as a quick remedy so that they seem able to be sincere when really they forgot how to. That's unhealthy 3s. Healthy 3s can be sincere and not rely on Deceit to shape their image for them. 

I want to say this because I really think all Image types use Deceit when unhealthy. Similarly, I don't like how Fear is attached to 6 as their vice when it's a mechanism for all unhealthy mind types to attempt their escape. Using Fear as the vice of 6 further complicates the 6 character and brings up things like phobic and counterphobic phenomena (when again all types use fear and can be phobic or counterphobic). I think the true vice of 6 is reactive skepticism (all vices are reactive versus proactive). 

Have fun calibrating. I think when 3 is looked at more like this, it's easier to see 4w5 in MM too.


----------



## Purrfessor

Donald Trump is somebody I type as 2w3, and if you look at his behavior you can see how the w3 manifests not as Deceit but as insincerity/sincerity (it's a spectrum).


----------



## Paradigm

@Nissa Nissa @Saturniid 
Genuinely not trying to be rude, but there's an MBTI version of this thread:
http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...st-mistype-revelation-thread-mbt-edition.html

@Nissa Nissa
Also, no :tongue:

@Saturniid 
You sound ISFJ, Fe-Ti + Ne-inferior.


----------



## Saturniid

Paradigm said:


> @Saturniid
> You sound ISFJ, Fe-Ti + Ne-inferior.


Ah, I'm aware this is for enneagram. I more or less was implying that views have alternated a fair bit, so I'm curious to whether people will view that any differently, just as they did with MBTI. The link was provided for familiarity and to see if there was anything that could be picked up enneagram-wise.

(As far as ISFJ is concerned, I'm pretty genuinely confidant I'm not one. Most people actually note _inferior_ Fe in regards to my actions, and a potent dose of Ne (Constant curiosity/need for knowledge, and a thorough enjoyment of it). The humorous part of it all is that some of the more well-versed (in MBTI) people on here have a hard time determining whether they view me as INFP or INTP. Not based on category, but on functional structure alone. But I do suppose that's a topic for the aforementioned thread.)


----------



## Paradigm

Saturniid said:


> Ah, I'm aware this is for enneagram. I more or less was implying that views have alternated a fair bit, so I'm curious to whether people will view that any differently, just as they did with MBTI. The link was provided for familiarity and to see if there was anything that could be picked up enneagram-wise.


Ah.

5w6 sounds more likely, you have quite a few 6 themes running through those answers. A 9 fix seems likely. But, I can't even see anything to indicate what your heart fix might be, and it kinda feels like you "defaulted" to 4w5 for some reason.


----------



## Saturniid

Paradigm said:


> Ah.
> 
> 5w6 sounds more likely, you have quite a few 6 themes running through those answers. A 9 fix seems likely. But, I can't even see anything to indicate what your heart fix might be, and it kinda feels like you "defaulted" to 4w5 for some reason.


Hmm. Interesting observation. If I may ask, what is it that stands out to you that filters into a difference from 5w4 to 5w6 instead? If I recall correctly, the 6 is known for basing much around the ideals of security, yes? Do correct me if I'm wrong, as that reference is definitely from the top of my head. If so, then I can definitely find that a convincing mention.

The 4w5 comes from many, many, many times where others have tried to convince me I most certainly have it. From discussions to debates, from here to Discord servers, it's been addressed multiple times based of reading my 'About me' info, my profile picture, my photography collection, and even my signature. It's gotten to the point where many just assume I'm a balanced 5 and leave it at that, so I stop by here seeking another's view/insight. I do have an artistic inclination, and I enjoy being 'different' (sometimes), but no where near as much as I value knowledge and competence. That's also something that initially brought others to settle on 5w4, but I can't deny that there are certain qualities that stand out in what I've read pertaining to the 5w6 as well. The biggest difference, I believe, was a recurring theme where I've read that 5w6 has more of a certain 'dependency' on people, rather than the hyper-reclusive independence that a 5w4 can have, but I also assume those may just be blatant generalizations.

With that said, I don't know if you'll pick up an enneagram vibe based off of my photos or not, but you're welcomed to look at my profile for a lead on a heart fix, if you can find one. 

roud:


----------



## star tripper

I think it's easy to misinterpret "dependence on people." I don't spend my days suckling teets. It's more like my 5 fixations are oriented toward the real world whereas 4s are more... I wanna say abstract. When I think of 5w4s, I think of Dexter and his characterization of his dark passenger or "Hurricane Dexter." There's a focus on his identity. Same with Erik the Phantom, that focus on identity. My focus is more on the physical world and my ability to navigate it. I'm philosophical, but not in a poetic way. My interests gravitate toward examining belief systems than my emotional state.

I don't think there's a dramatic difference between the wings. It's just a flavor. And my flavor is more oriented toward the physical world and belief than excavation of self (though I do both).


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> @Nissa Nissa @Saturniid
> Genuinely not trying to be rude, but there's an MBTI version of this thread:
> http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...st-mistype-revelation-thread-mbt-edition.html
> 
> @Nissa Nissa
> Also, no :tongue:
> 
> @Saturniid
> You sound ISFJ, Fe-Ti + Ne-inferior.


Yeah but I have no faith in typers on that forum, also I don't post there so people don't know me))


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> Yeah but I have no faith in typers on that forum, also I don't post there so people don't know me))


Meh, to be fair neither do I. But oftentimes _this_ forum isn't much better, either


----------



## Paradigm

Saturniid said:


> Hmm. Interesting observation. If I may ask, what is it that stands out to you that filters into a difference from 5w4 to 5w6 instead? If I recall correctly, the 6 is known for basing much around the ideals of security, yes? Do correct me if I'm wrong, as that reference is definitely from the top of my head. If so, then I can definitely find that a convincing mention.
> 
> The 4w5 comes from many, many, many times where others have tried to convince me I most certainly have it. From discussions to debates, from here to Discord servers, it's been addressed multiple times based of reading my 'About me' info, my profile picture, my photography collection, and even my signature. It's gotten to the point where many just assume I'm a balanced 5 and leave it at that, so I stop by here seeking another's view/insight. I do have an artistic inclination, and I enjoy being 'different' (sometimes), but no where near as much as I value knowledge and competence. That's also something that initially brought others to settle on 5w4, but I can't deny that there are certain qualities that stand out in what I've read pertaining to the 5w6 as well. *The biggest difference, I believe, was a recurring theme where I've read that 5w6 has more of a certain 'dependency' on people, rather than the hyper-reclusive independence that a 5w4 can have, but I also assume those may just be blatant generalizations.*


You realize your entire typing process, as described in this thread, is based on "other people typed me this way so I went with it," right? I'm aware you probably supplemented it with reading, but that's how you're describing it.

Also, type 4 doesn't have a monopoly on "feeling different," nor _enjoying _the feeling of "being different." There's a crap-ton of people of the other types who feel that way.


----------



## Immolate

Nissa Nissa said:


> I wonder...if anyone can see ISTJ for me


Yes, you were pretty good with that door.


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> Yes, you were pretty good with that door.


:laughing: good memory))
are door skills really ISTJ though?))


----------



## Immolate

Nissa Nissa said:


> :laughing: good memory))
> are door skills really ISTJ though?))


If you want to entertain Si base, why not SEI?


----------



## Saturniid

Paradigm said:


> You realize your entire typing process, as described in this thread, is based on "other people typed me this way so I went with it," right? I'm aware you probably supplemented it with reading, but that's how you're describing it.
> 
> Also, type 4 doesn't have a monopoly on "feeling different," nor _enjoying _the feeling of "being different." There's a crap-ton of people of the other types who feel that way.


Haha, I know. I suppose its a natural habit that once someone provides a viewpoint, I'm inquisitive towards it. Strong arguments have been made for both 5w4 and 5w6, as well as 4w5 as a heart fix in the past, but as apparently evident, the things I've researched seem to be misleading (since I've found several web pages that more or less imply that 4w5s strive to be different/unique, and love the idea of being so eccentric), so at the moment, my hopes for enneagram knowledge lie within PerC, where perchance misleading or generalized information can be corrected.

So basically, following along with your point, when someone tells me they type me a certain way as opposed to what others have said, I simply find myself curious. I apologise if it comes off irritating at any point. I'm just looking to understand the aspects of each enneatype that winds up presented when someone tells me I come across as a particular one.


@star tripper - You've summarized that quite well. I definitely understand much more than I did before that post. Interesting. I'd say in contrast though, I'm liable to fall into a more 'abstract' train of thought, as opposed to literal, so I always wind up indecisively torn with "am I THIS one, or _THIS_ one?". Thank you for contributing to clarification, even if the differences are (seemingly) vague. I'll trust that as a good example to help me understand.


----------



## star tripper

Saturniid said:


> Haha, I know. I suppose its a natural habit that once someone provides a viewpoint, I'm inquisitive towards it. Strong arguments have been made for both 5w4 and 5w6, as well as 4w5 as a heart fix in the past, but as apparently evident, the things I've researched seem to be misleading (since I've found several web pages that more or less imply that 4w5s strive to be different/unique, and love the idea of being so eccentric), so at the moment, my hopes for enneagram knowledge lie within PerC, where perchance misleading or generalized information can be corrected.
> 
> So basically, following along with your point, when someone tells me they type me a certain way as opposed to what others have said, I simply find myself curious. I apologise if it comes off irritating at any point. I'm just looking to understand the aspects of each enneatype that winds up presented when someone tells me I come across as a particular one.
> 
> 
> 
> @star tripper - You've summarized that quite well. I definitely understand much more than I did before that post. Interesting. I'd say in contrast though, I'm liable to fall into a more 'abstract' train of thought, as opposed to literal, so I always wind up indecisively torn with "am I THIS one, or _THIS_ one?". Thank you for contributing to clarification, even if the differences are (seemingly) vague. I'll trust that as a good example to help me understand.


I should clarify that by abstract, I meant 5w4s tend to ruminate on, well, themselves. Think Dexter vs L. L also abstracts, but his abstractions are about the world around him. L asks, "Who is Kira?" Dexter asks, "Who is Dexter?" I think these are also good examples because Dexter is a sensor and L is an intuitive.

You might've inferred that's what I meant. I just want it to be clear for anyone else searching 5w4 vs 5w6 in the search engine.


----------



## Paradigm

Saturniid said:


> Haha, I know. I suppose its a natural habit that once someone provides a viewpoint, I'm inquisitive towards it. Strong arguments have been made for both 5w4 and 5w6, as well as 4w5 as a heart fix in the past, but as apparently evident, the things I've researched seem to be misleading (since I've found several web pages that more or less imply that 4w5s strive to be different/unique, and love the idea of being so eccentric), so at the moment, my hopes for enneagram knowledge lie within PerC, where perchance misleading or generalized information can be corrected.
> 
> So basically, following along with your point, when someone tells me they type me a certain way as opposed to what others have said, I simply find myself curious. I apologise if it comes off irritating at any point. I'm just looking to understand the aspects of each enneatype that winds up presented when someone tells me I come across as a particular one.


I respect this reply a lot. I was kind of suspect you were one of those that pretended to care more than actually cared, but I can understand this. Sorry for being abrupt.

As for type 4, it's more like they're the ones that get all the "glory" about "being unique," but that doesn't preclude other types from doing the same. Every type has this problem, like 1 hogs the glory of trying to "perfect," 2 the glory of being "helpful," 3 the glory of being "successful," etc. It's both reductionist and misleading, for fairly obvious reasons (one trait does not a type make).

I still genuinely wonder if you are actually ISFJ instead - I see a lot more Fe than you probably see in yourself - but I'm not going to mention it any further. (Though an ISFJ 5w6 would be unique :wink 9 core is also possible, by the way, but so far you haven't written enough that I could point out a 9 pattern convincingly.

As a tiny word of wisdom, I had to type myself without much help. That's not to say people didn't genuinely try to help, but it's just not easy to both understand the material and intimately understand someone else. I mistyped as an INFP 6w5 for a decent amount of time and everyone agreed because that's what they "wanted" to see. The wing isn't as big a deal, but _no one_ (including myself) saw me as INTJ until I actually thought about it long and hard. Like for months. And I _still _doubt being INTJ sometimes.

Anyway, done rambling. To point out what's 6ish about your questionnaire:


> I do NOT want to be someone easily influenced or meek. I've been there, and find I do not want to return to that point in life. I often find myself apologizing for my distaste of weakness (this does not mean at ALL that I hate people that might fall into its grip--it means that I hate weakness for how badly it can hurt those who do. I hate the aspect, but never, ever, ever the person. Saying otherwise would make me a blatant hypocrite to myself and those around me.)
> Aside from that, my distaste is for the power hungry.





> I'm so adamant about learning because it keeps me from being caught off guard, because life is unpredictable. It helps me to be informative to others as well so they too can better prepare for the 'what if' of life.





> New situations leave me more vulnerable than anything else, especially if I've learned nothing of it prior. As mentioned above, I feel like I've been caught of guard. I retreat, observe, learn,





> There is respectable authority in this world--those who would use their power as guidance. However, I'm still wary of authority in general, because having authority and power makes it easy to fall into the grip of conceit and greed, if one becomes careless.
> I tolerate authority (again, as a whole), but that's as far as it goes. I do not particularly like it. It depends on the individual people from that point on.





> I've already mentioned it, but my fear is being caught off guard by life. It's unpredictable, and the uncertainty it presents constantly has me on edge unless I muffle it by studying whatever may suit my whim at the moment.


Type 6 comes up all the time so just read back the last few pages for clarification.

Edit: Oh, and visual typing is dubious at best, imo


----------



## Krayfish

Could anyone see 9w1 so/sp (or 1w9 sp/so I suppose) for me rather than 9w1 sp/so? I feel like 9w1 works and sp/so works, but together they do not work. A lot of the 9w1 sp/so descriptions focus on "appetite" and hoarding/laziness, which is not me mostly (As a child I think I hoarded but that was child me). Not that so/sp fits better necessarily, but at times I have related to sp/sx more than sp/so, which makes me think that (since I'm obviously incredibly sx blind) maybe I'm just contra flow? Maybe I'm just overthinking this...


----------



## Paradigm

Krayfish said:


> Could anyone see 9w1 so/sp (or 1w9 sp/so I suppose) for me rather than 9w1 sp/so? I feel like 9w1 works and sp/so works, but together they do not work. A lot of the 9w1 sp/so descriptions focus on "appetite" and hoarding/laziness, which is not me mostly (As a child I think I hoarded but that was child me). Not that so/sp fits better necessarily, but at times I have related to sp/sx more than sp/so, which makes me think that (since I'm obviously incredibly sx blind) maybe I'm just contra flow? Maybe I'm just overthinking this...


Honestly, I don't put a ton of stock into the syn/contra flow theory. It's one of those "fun to play with but probably meaningless/false" theories for me.

Additionally, I think you may be overthinking the way people describe 9w1 + SP/SO. To compare myself, I have a hard time relating to half of how people metaphorically describe SP/SX by itself (some are very gross, death and decay and crap), and I have a hard time relating to how authors describe "SX 6" (very "grrr i'm tough" and gender-focused) which leaks into their 6 SP/SX descriptions. But aside from those few things, 6w7 SP/SX fits me best.

It sounds like if you took away the few details that don't fit you as an individual, 9w1 SP/SO otherwise works. And anyways, there's probably no one who fits any description 100%


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I don't know about the syn/contra-flow thing, but one thing about Sp 9 descriptions is I think they have a sensing-bias which could be part of it.


----------



## o0india0o

Alright. I am back (for like a minute)_*!*_ I barely have time to brush my teeth, but I'm still picking at this Enneagram scab (eww).

I have almost come to the conclusion that I am a Type 7 (or at the very least, *not* a Type 4), after doing a lot of reading about Enneagram Type 4 (my most neglected Enneagram type, because I found them confusing). I have realized that I relate to a lot of the satellite traits of Enneagram Type 4's, but not the primary motivation (not really-- _maybe not at all_). I am deciding that this is a more common issue than is given lime light for Type 7's with a dominant Sexual Instinct (especially 7w6's);; I think partially because Type 7's are vastly under-represented on the forums (for understandable reasons).

Anyways, I thought it might be helpful to pick a part what I relate to about Type 4, but then underscore the *why*. WHY I do the Type 4-ish thing. I think it might be illuminating, and that someone might be able to help me finally sort out which way to go. Also, I offer up my post as tribute for picking a part the SX Type 7(w6)-- as I'm thinking that it's a more unusual/different variation of Type 7 (in a smaller population).

Feel free to play along (or don't;; either is fine). This will be long and rambly (as per my usual), as I don't know any other way to write. It will encompass whatever I can cram into the time my child is napping. :words:

Let Us BEGIN*!*

** Emotional Intensity*



> I am an emotionally intense individual. I have been told this by those around me, and I *feel* it on a daily basis. Part of it, is that I believe I'm just a more emotional person than most (I have high high's and low low's). I feel things intensely. When I'm really upset/depressed, I end up crying underneath the bed (my husband has to fish me out). This can happen every day for a few days, once a week, or not for a few months. My mood is all over the place. I do get intensely upset about things-- but it's usually not for an extended period of time, and I prefer to be cheered up if at all possible. A suggestion of getting ice-cream, having a fun experience, or a joke (depending on the severity of my upset) will usually get me moving. However, the other part, is that I think I'm addicted to intense feelings. If I could be intensely happy all the time, I'd choose that. But being intensely upset is a close second-- or at least, a better option than "blah". When you feel things intensely, you get an adrenaline rush_*!*_ Good, bad, or otherwise, intense feelings of any stripe make me feel *alive**!* My preference is for *happy*, but my other preference is for *intense*. I eat feelings for breakfast, nom! nom! nom!
> 
> EDIT: That above paragraph makes it sound like I'm upset and depressed on a constant basis, ha ha ha. I am not. :laughing: But, I am trying to depict that it _can_ be frequent, and that I experience sadness and pain in bursts and more than is maybe necessary at times.


** Analyzation/"Fixing" Things*



> I don't veer away from my upset or depression if I feel it is something that needs to be addressed. I will stay with the topic longer (as long as it takes). I will dive into unpleasant territory, look at myself "warts and all", as well as other aspects of life and my surroundings. It's not where I prefer to be, but I understand that (long-term) if I want to be happy, I need to *truly* fix things; that requires getting to the root of the issue (& I understand that). Sometimes I will even get stuck in a sort of "analysis paralysis", over-analyzing, and ruminating on issues (which has the opposite effect, and ends up making me feel negative about life and the situation). My ultimate goal though, is to do a real fix, instead of a band-aid fix, so that I do not have to deal with the problem again, and can go back to being happy (and hopefully more abundantly, having fixed said problem).


** Imagination/Fantasy*



> I _*highly*_ embellish reality with fantasy. It's usually a *positive* slant. I do so in the name of feeling things intensely, and under the guise of "living life to the fullest"; "being present in the moment", and all that in vogue lingo. I'm not sure if I'm truly living life to the fullest when I do this (I still have to sort that out), but it at least _appears_ to others as if I am (& it feels that way to me in the moment). I would describe it similar to the way children embellish reality (it's probably the same mechanism), how a child might see a pile of boxes as a fantastical castle. Simple things become extraordinary*!* :welcoming: And also, I *intensify* the experience, like when you boost the color saturation on an image (that's how I see the world;; that's my preference anyways). I also always add a very poetic and sensual twist to my experiences.
> 
> For example, I took my toddler out to the local University's campus for fresh churned ice-cream for breakfast (which I view as exciting*!* The best way to start the day*!* Most fun EVAR*!*). Afterwards, we walked the college campus, and then we went to a new park (new and novel stimuli). The park had a train that we got to watch go around the tracks, which both my toddler and I enjoyed to an equal (embarrassing) degree.  Everything is new and awe inspiring, like when children see things for the first time (which was true in my toddler's case). Then I try to do things like take in the sensory experience, like the wind blowing against my skin, and how that makes me feel alive and existential, and like when you're on boats in the summer (and the feelings of a childhood summer), watching my toddler on the swings with the sun on his hair, tracing the smile on his face, almost as if in a slow-motion montage in a movie (thinking thoughts like this, this is life, and I love it*!* and these are the moments in the movie we're going to flash back on, and I'm absorbing them in the moment-- this is the best of life, and I'm enjoying). My mind processes everything in a cinematic and poetic way, which intensifies and enhances the experience for me. (If that makes any sense;; it's kind of garbled-- I'm always running on no sleep now;; I've had to just accept that my words and statements make less sense than they use to :sleeping: )
> 
> & I do this, because it feels good (duh*!*). It feels good to live life like it's a movie;; and I do it because I don't want to miss out on anything, and I want to enjoy all my experiences (even the mundane ones). I want to get everything out of life possible, and I want to see the beauty all-around me.


** Self-Analyzation/Awareness*



> I self-analyze, and am aware of myself to an _extreme_. More than most. It's a hobby. My brain needs to be ruminating and pulling a part something;; and self-awareness is an enjoyable one. I like digging around in the psychic muck. I'm not afraid of the dark parts, I sort of pull a part all parts. I do it because I like to know who I am. I feel good in knowing myself. & Also, I enjoy analyzing myself (as well as others). So, the *why* in this case comes down to enjoyment. But I self-reflect almost _constantly_. I have been told (more than once) that I'm the most self-aware individual a person knows. So, there's that.


** Creative*



> I don't know a "why", other than I like it. I enjoy being creative. For many things in life, my "why" comes down to enjoyment (that, or wanting to be a "good person"). They discuss Type 4's art as being very self-referential, and mine use to be as a child (when I was heavily processing my abusive/dysfunctional household). But, in art school (in college) my art was much more about capturing the joy and beauty of life. It was basically creating a way for people to see the world and the simple/common the way I do (intense, heightened, poetic, fantastical, exciting, beautiful, exhilarating). I feel a lot of people miss the beauty in life, and what's really great about it*!* In some sense, I've never lost my sense of wonder, or ability to see things as if for the first time like a child. My art was focused on finding ways to show people that stuff.


& That's all for now. There's a lot more I thought about in the shower this morning (I'm sure), but my thoughts are so disjointed from exhaustion, I'm going to just leave it at that. Also, having a child was the best thing that ever happened to me (I know I probably make it sound otherwise :laughing: ), he's just still not sleeping through the night, and I frequently feel the need to explain why I'm incoherent at times. My preference would be to be meticulous about what I write, and how I express myself;; ain't no one got time for that (anymore)*!*

So, what am I*?* A Type 7, Type 4, or something all-together different*?*

Please and Thank You*!* :love_heart:


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@o0india0o Honestly, it's not that 4s cannot value happiness, but I don't expect them to come across as...enthusiastic, charming and bubbly. Also, for me, "digging into myself" wasn't just to fix things; it was about seeking understanding, and I am not sure a 4 will ever stop doing that in their life, regardless of how healthy or unhealthy they are. Your goal is to be happy, mine is to understand for it's own sake. I think that says a lot. I would lean towards 7 over 4 for you.


----------



## Asd456

@o0india0o No, I don't think you're a type 4. Your positivity is noticeable, which makes me think of the positive outlook triad (2, 7, 9). My impression is that you are more optimistic and not reactive; a type 4 is more reactive because of the reactive triad (4, 6, 8). From my experience, your preference for positivity is more 7, 2, or 9 and not type 4. In fact, I wouldn't describe a type 4 as cheerful or positive, actually. If you are a type 7, as part of the head triad, I think your relationship with anxiety is more significant, in terms of the connection and fixation. From my experience, they are more avoidant in terms of unpleasant confrontations. If something irritates them, they push the unpleasant feeling away by distracting themselves. Usually, the anxiety is noticeable though, although mentally they are somewhere else (this is my observation for all of the head types in terms of the presence of anxiety, depending on the level of awareness and suppression). As for your embellishment of reality with fantasy, this is not limited to type 7. For example, I have a type 9 So/Sx ENFP friend, and she is guilty of this as well. 
By the way, your positivity is awesome. roud:


----------



## star tripper

Nissa Nissa said:


> Convince me my tritype is actually 279
> 
> It seems madly wrong


Convince me your MBTI is ISTJ.

It seems madly wrong


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> Convince me your MBTI is ISTJ.
> 
> It seems madly wrong


Ok fair) 
And I was actually going to explain that more in depth and answer Immolate's question today but I keep putting it off

Let me begin with: when I first paid attention to MBTI (already..several years ago :O) what really hooked or got me was this feeling of being constantly idk alone or bored and feeling like no one else was with me on that, so idea of being an extrovert really spoke to me, that was my thing to explain to myself why I was this way, that...oh, extroverts need people, _I_ need people, I remember googling 'shy extrovert' a bunch, guess basically I felt like I was a natural extrovert who due to shyness and (self-imposed?) deprivation of socialization had become more introvert-seeming, to me that explained why it felt like I was never getting enough from the world and other people, seemed like most important thing ever, that I needed input and such, so really I've barely considered introverted types. When I found out about functions I thought it was Fe, cycled through some various types, then some people said I used a lot of Ne, so ENFP, whatever

But, I think all that was really 2, before I knew Enneagram I was trying to use that kind of concept on MBTI and then I got stuck on those ideas

But whenever I tried to tell people irl I was an extrovert they thought that was funny, I'm really the _classic_ introvert, I'm shy and awkward, I don't actually like people being around all that often, you know, I look forward to experiences with people but then an hour in I want to go to the glorious darkness of some cave far from mortal eyes, I want people in my life (because I'm a human) but I don't know how to let them in or interact and I generally want them in my life on my (very neurotic) terms . . . _and I'm a 2_, and probably social-first

As for functions, @Animal (and I have no idea if she agrees with this typing) but she was pointing out how a lot of my writing has Si, I think we were talking about these (plz don't post quote):


















Also this is from when I was...16? and look at that sad attempt at Ni or something towards the end

And...I'm never sure how much of physical environment I'm supposed to notice to be Si or sp or whatever, I can be really stupid about things which made 1D Si seem ok but people have also argued in the past that the way I like to cook and such can be Si, I also enjoy cleaning, etc, always thought I'd be quite happy as housewife, doing this and that little life thing always feels...nice, productive and...I don't like sitting down and forcing myself to study, I like things like...driving and listening to music, going all Rapunzel:






which...I can interpret as just a thing or aspiring inferior Si but idk it's pretty natural to me too

Inferior Ne can make sense too, I often can feel...well, when I was typing at Ne-dom I'd observe that I'd often go to Si-doms for advice, but really for ideas, thought it was strange I a Ne-dom would want ideas from a Si-dom, something like 'I don't which ideas are normal', but I've always frozen up with some school projects, work things, when they call for creativity...people see me as 'creative' but I'm not the idea person, I was that kid in school who if they made us think of a team name or something I'd be sitting there for half an hour or like 'ok Team A', the only ideas I ever have are the ideas I happen to have. And I have no confidence with the ideas I do have, I don't know...how those things work



Immolate said:


> If you want to entertain Si base, why not SEI?


Thing is it's _so weird_ for me to be Fe + 2 + social, I'm also _so bad_ at social things, I'm truly awkward, maybe unaware of social milieu and not just in cutesy Internet 'look how awkward I am' way...I mean, something that stands out so much about of my personality is how in elementary school at recess, I'd just sit by the edge of the school watching the other kids play, I wanted to join them but I didn't know the rules to any of their games, I didn't know if or how I was allowed to join, I always loved organized games and like..._meetings_ because the rules were clear, I never intuited social things like the weird nicknames kids gave each other or the . . . sort-of memes that happen in life, I always thought there was some secret code I was missing out on and as I've gotten older I've realized that's not really the case, but I still can't actively participate in these things, and I miss basic social cues

I don't know where or how to join in conversations, like when I was first typing at ISTJ I was working somewhere and I'd be hearing fellow workers talk about Game of Thrones, I love that show so that should have been my cue to join in but I had no idea how to, I'd just be sitting there praying someone would forget some character name or something so I could inform them and enter conversation  and I was just awkward and unable to join or quite understand social dynamic, lots of incidents 

And I always identified as a feeler because I have a lot of feelings but...a. that's not what feeling is b. 2 c. I don't even know that I have more feelings that other people. I make personal decisions based on my feelings and intuition, I'm not and never will be 'married to work' person, I always know how I feel and all that but it's not like I don't make practical decisions, and I do a lot, for other people...for example when I go out drinking with people I always end up being one to shepherd people home, make people drink water etc, am often 'solution-finder' for little practical things in peoples' lives, don't think about it that much but I was starting to notice it 

And...I would even say that I would have identified as a thinker as a child, more I think about it being so 'feel'y is a fairly recent occurrence, wasn't 'practical' child but I didn't dwell much on emotions, but on ideas and thoughts, like I did type as ESTP for a while and I thought being an ESTP child especially made sense but I don't think I'm Se+Ti, but I was mostly off in my own world, interacting with the world, and thinking of things, idk, even when I think about my morality in that time it was pretty Si-Te ish, I was more of a Tywin Lannister than now  Like I remember...and my parents are like liberal Catholic/Episcopalians so it didn't come from them, I was very 'actions have consequences', was for death penalty and against welfare and such, little miss 'actions have consequences', some things in my mid-teens changed how I thought (a quote from Victor Hugo, visiting slums and -observing how _smart_ and _potentially valuable to society_ many homeless people were, becoming more religious), actually kind-of Teish way of coming at what is now my more Fi-ish morality, I think I'd actually forgotten how Tish I was before I was like 16, even now I tend to have pretty logical way of looking at moral things, and I still annoy people with how I express even the nice things I think lol

HA Fi could make sense I think, Te ego is a little weird but the more I think about it not crazy...I am person who has spent whole life making _detailed, specific, complicated_ lists of ways to behave

And they can be weird like 'eat apples for rosy cheeks' 'drink wine for sweet lips' but I don't think typology will explain that one XD

I'm not married to ISTJ idea but ExFx social 2 is just...so ridiculously not me, there's definitely some warring combination in there, this...could be it

edit: tagging you too @mistakenforstranger since you thanked above post)
And @Signorina Misteriosa too, just cause


----------



## Dangerose

Also I don't think I'm very Alpha, don't relate to descriptions at least

For me it's I think Beta>Delta>>>Alpha>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gamma


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> Thing is it's _so weird_ for me to be Fe + 2 + social, I'm also _so bad_ at social things, I'm truly awkward, maybe unaware of social milieu and not just in cutesy Internet 'look how awkward I am' way...I mean, something that stands out so much about of my personality is how in elementary school at recess, I'd just sit by the edge of the school watching the other kids play, I wanted to join them but I didn't know the rules to any of their games, I didn't know if or how I was allowed to join, I always loved organized games and like..._meetings_ because the rules were clear, I never intuited social things like the weird nicknames kids gave each other or the . . . sort-of memes that happen in life, I always thought there was some secret code I was missing out on and as I've gotten older I've realized that's not really the case, but I still can't actively participate in these things, and I miss basic social cues
> 
> I don't know where or how to join in conversations, like when I was first typing at ISTJ I was working somewhere and I'd be hearing fellow workers talk about Game of Thrones, I love that show so that should have been my cue to join in but I had no idea how to, I'd just be sitting there praying someone would forget some character name or something so I could inform them and enter conversation  and I was just awkward and unable to join or quite understand social dynamic, lots of incidents
> 
> And I always identified as a feeler because I have a lot of feelings but...a. that's not what feeling is b. 2 c. I don't even know that I have more feelings that other people. I make personal decisions based on my feelings and intuition, I'm not and never will be 'married to work' person, I always know how I feel and all that but it's not like I don't make practical decisions, and I do a lot, for other people...for example when I go out drinking with people I always end up being one to shepherd people home, make people drink water etc, am often 'solution-finder' for little practical things in peoples' lives, don't think about it that much but I was starting to notice it
> <snip>
> I'm not married to ISTJ idea but ExFx social 2 is just...so ridiculously not me, there's definitely some warring combination in there, this...could be it


1) SEI is actually ISFJ, not ESFJ.

2) I think you have a skewed perception on what being a Feeler, and what being Fe, is. It basically means you value ethics and (for Fe) social harmony. Not that you're socially skilled, or a manipulator, or an emotional person.

My mom's one of the best trouble-shooters I know, and while I'm not sure of her MB-type, I think it's IxFP (leaning INFP). That's a Te-inferior person who's the best at trouble-shooting. She has low self-esteem and thinks she's awkward. And I know an ISFJ 2w3 who went into the military, is stubborn as hell, and sees herself as "awkward" and somehow insufficient at life. She's not, she's just insecure, but self-deception is a bitch. I'll be honest, I don't see a lot of her in you, but I'm also not entirely sure of her type beyond ISFJ (she could be a 9, and idk her stacking).

I'm not going to say ISTJ is impossible - 'cause as an INTJ 6w7 that would be a bit hypocritical - but it just seems off. I always had you pegged as an IxFx.


----------



## Immolate

@Nissa Nissa I'll try to offer more input later, but what I basically got from what you wrote was: you consider yourself extremely socially awkward, and you can't be an ethical type if you're so socially awkward. I agree with Paradigm here.


----------



## Asd456

@Nissa Nissa My sister is an ISTJ and I'm an ENTJ. I am familiar with Te. I'm sorry but my impression is that your Ne is strong, not Te. My pick is ENFP or INFP, depending on the subtype (ENFP-Fi subtype or INFP-Ne subtype).


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> 1) SEI is actually ISFJ, not ESFJ.


Oh, I know, I was just talking about Fe in general
I've only briefly flirted with idea of ISFJ, I think the thing for that specifically is that Ti HA feels bizarre. 


> 2) I think you have a skewed perception on what being a Feeler, and what being Fe, is. It basically means you value ethics and (for Fe) social harmony. Not that you're socially skilled, or a manipulator, or an emotional person.
> 
> 
> 
> Immolate said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Nissa Nissa I'll try to offer more input later, but what I basically got from what you wrote was: you consider yourself extremely socially awkward, and you can't be an ethical type if you're so socially awkward. I agree with Paradigm here.
Click to expand...

But consistently valuing ethics (and social harmony? that concept is so weird to me and one reason why I think unvalued/low Fe might be good for me) usually results in being somewhat socially fluid, right?

I promise I'm not exaggerating how awkward I am, I was fired from one job because I was too quiet (despite being as chatty as possible), recently quit job that I was definitely going to be fired from, because I wasn't making strong/instant enough connections and wasn't really able to properly modulate the social environment (I mean, I was teaching, it was important lol)...and it wasn't something I was able to fix. I'm not just awkward, I have significantly lower skills in this area than most other people, it's commented on all the time. And I know the functions aren't skills, but it doesn't make sense if the ideas are completely unrelated.

I don't make that many decisions, and most of those decisions are purely logical or purely ethical decisions, moreover valuing ethics or logic in any one situation feels very much like a conscious choice. I've never known how to determine what I value and if I did know it feels like something that would come up like...once or twice, I think it must be more than that. 

Anyways, this sounds like skill:



> Fe is generally associated with the *ability* to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, and build a sense of community and emotional unity.


From Sociotype.com
These are all things I'm bad at (except I'd say 'recognize and describe emotional interaction' but then idk)





> My mom's one of the best trouble-shooters I know, and while I'm not sure of her MB-type, I think it's IxFP (leaning INFP). That's a Te-inferior person who's the best at trouble-shooting. She has low self-esteem and thinks she's awkward. And I know an ISFJ 2w3 who went into the military, is stubborn as hell, and sees herself as "awkward" and somehow insufficient at life. She's not, she's just insecure, but self-deception is a bitch. I'll be honest, I don't see a lot of her in you, but I'm also not entirely sure of her type beyond ISFJ (she could be a 9, and idk her stacking).
> 
> I'm not going to say ISTJ is impossible - 'cause as an INTJ 6w7 that would be a bit hypocritical - but it just seems off. I always had you pegged as an IxFx.





Asd456 said:


> @Nissa Nissa My sister is an ISTJ and I'm an ENTJ. I am familiar with Te. I'm sorry but my impression is that your Ne is strong, not Te. My pick is ENFP or INFP, depending on the subtype (ENFP-Fi subtype or INFP-Ne subtype).


Thanks for the thoughts) 
And yeah I'm definitely not stuck on ISTJ


----------



## star tripper

I have but one word of rebuttal to the assertion that Fe promises any slight degree of social skills:

Spongebob.


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> I have but one word of rebuttal to the assertion that Fe promises any slight degree of social skills:
> 
> Spongebob.


Haven't seen Spongebob, I thought he was so ugly and gross that I would leave the room if there was a TV playing it as a kid  (Si?)

But I mean...

Spent a long time explaining why I was a Fe-dom with terrible social skills, and I don't think the concepts are intrinsically related
But...I'm not sure it makes sense for _me
_


----------



## Dangerose

Also look at my collages
Most of the emotion comes from the quotes
They actually look pretty ISTJ..they're not Neish I think either
again I'm not going down with this ship but I think it's a thought at least


* *

























































































































































I mean...they're emotive, I meant them emotively certainly but they all have some sort of 'locked in stone' quality which is really accurate for me imo

Copying some things I wrote elsewhere

I've always thought 2 + ExFx + social is pretty weird for my personality because even though I like and feel drawn to people, people make up my world (which is why I typed at Fe-dom for a long long time) I'm very held-back and extremely awkward in person (I know everyone says that on the Internet but for me it's really true I promise - I'm pretty much capable of responding to questions (woodenly), smiling a lot, and hoping people will reach out to me). I tend to be pretty...I wouldn't say blunt because I try to be nice and have pretty soft edge, but I tend to say exactly what I mean, have a hard time with tone regulation, etc (I catch myself being rude occasionally and often get accused of having disrespectful/dismissive tone when in my mind I'm just saying how I see the facts). I'm also - emotive, I'm a 2, but I don't think it tends to come across and people (who don't know me very well) are usually surprised at shows of emotion, even my best friend of five years (at the time) got really shocked when I hugged her once when she was sad ��
I think Fe PoLR makes sense - for instance, I used to have - so many etiquette books, I would study and study them, but it was like I was learning the rules, the reason was that I wanted to know - exactly what to do - in every conceivable situation - because this isn't something I intuit, because as a 2 it matters to me that people like me, and because I just...I like clear expectations, I like knowing exactly what is The Thing To Do.

There was this story thing that my best friend and I had since middle school, my 'soulmate' was an ENFP 7, and - I know it's weird to base type off fictional story - but it suddenly made me realize other pattern of myself, in that story I basically continually drove that guy away, my friends away, which I'd never consciously realized, I was always too focused on my idea of myself in the story as some cursed deeply loving dark princess lol but that wasn't really the problem, problem was that my character was deeply un-demonstrative, always chose tradition, decorum, and duty over..life (to the point that my friend the co-creator was often doubting if my character really loved other characters) - to me it was self-evident because it was.

There was a 'famous' scene (like a more important one) that actually didn't tie into the main plotline but where my character broke up with her soulmate for some odd reason, someone was making a daisy chain and the soulmate said as his final tragic line, "Goodbye, Clara, I'll always taste sunshine", when I wrote it when I was like 13 I meant that memory of my love would always fill him with sunshine or something lol, suddenly realized that the line really meant...he'd always taste sunshine, he had it with him, I wouldn't. My character was born in a jail, I loved that character (1. because we were soulmates and it was true love) but also because he gave me sunshine, taught me how to live, not be stone. This is relevant to my life. 










so above collage...it's about how I always...lose sunshine, this is really a theme in my life, most important picture is the stone hand offering stone rose, that's what my love or warmth is like...the living flush of color isn't there. This one was about same story, idea was about being imprisoned by all the...castle and walls, while longing for that daisy and playing outside, being alive










even my username here idk



> Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon.


not sure if that makes sense, it's hard to explain


----------



## d e c a d e n t

star tripper said:


> I have but one word of rebuttal to the assertion that Fe promises any slight degree of social skills:
> 
> Spongebob.


Well, that seems like a different type of awkwardness.

Although I'm not really sure about Nissa's MBTI atm.


----------



## star tripper

Remnants said:


> Well, that seems like a different type of awkwardness.
> 
> Although I'm not really sure about Nissa's MBTI atm.


It doesn't matter what kind of awkwardness. It's the notion that Fe and social skills are tied to one another. But yeah, Spongebob is extroverted awkwardness and Nissa is introverted awkwardness.

I'm not making an argument for or against her type either since I find it hard to type people without physically interacting with them. I just wanna make sure none of the information she's using to determine her type is distorted in any fashion. She's a very self-aware individual so as long as the information is solid it should be fine.

But while the spotlight is on my opinion, I'm trying to figure out her Ti placement. POLR and HA both work funnily enough, so I would hedge my bets on SEI and IEE.


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> But while the spotlight is on my opinion, I'm trying to figure out her Ti placement. POLR and HA both work funnily enough, so I would hedge my bets on SEI and IEE.


Why does HA work?
I don't feel like I focus on Ti at all, feel like I should have some special relationship with my HA and I don't feel that way with Ti
But I'd like to hear why!


----------



## star tripper

Nissa Nissa said:


> Why does HA work?
> I don't feel like I focus on Ti at all, feel like I should have some special relationship with my HA and I don't feel that way with Ti
> But I'd like to hear why!


So the interesting thing about you that crops up is that you are trying to assemble a system that makes thorough, unquestionable sense. You constantly collect input from others and attempt to weave a logically sound narrative that will ultimately make your type self-evident and concrete. If something just doesn't make sense, you spin the old narrative to find that thing that's bothering you and throw the whole thing out the window.

I guess what I'm saying is to me your interaction with Ti is... loud. It drowns out all the other functions to me. And though I think I can verbalize your relationship with Ti alright, I cannot pinpoint where this particular relationship lands in Socionics. I can see it as HA or POLR or even suggestive at the moment. I feel like there's an epiphany within reach here so give me a moment, but yeah, that's what I tend to focus on whenever your type is brought up, that particular relationship dynamic with your own Ti.


----------



## Dangerose

Not to clog thread but just one thing that happened today that interested me, might be Si or self-pres related?

In the morning or whatever I went to a cafe, but...well I'm in Spanish-speaking country and something about my Spanish it's like people don't hear many things that I say (which hasn't happened with other languages, don't think I'm a mumbler, it's something about my accent somehow) there was very confusing exchange:

Me: Do you have breakfast now?
Waitress *looks horrified*
Me: *points at breakfast board* Do you have breakfast?
Waitress: Yes
Me: Ok, then I'd like the breakfast...coffee with milk, toast and scrambled eggs, orange juice...
Waitress: Ok, anything else?
Me: No
Waitress: Just coffee with milk?
Me: mm, aha yes

*just wanted to tell that story actually still reeling from how confusing that was*

So then later I'm walking and I think I'm going to faint, start shaking uncontrollably, wasn't sure if I was about to die, then I realized I hadn't eaten since who-knows-how-long

Always think I don't forget to eat but actually that sort of thing happens a lot, I'd been into cafe so in my mind I'd eaten, to me eating is like...something to do, it's totally divorced from actual...'you need to eat' thing, it's one of several possible activities, something to fill time

I mean I did figure out what the problem was but it took me a long time too, and it didn't occur to me 'I wasn't able to eat there so I should go somewhere else', I'd sat down and done the restaurant thing so obviously I had eaten

Low Si? High Si? Bad sp? Good sp? something, surely

__________

(Similar thing happened other week, this time I became very dehydrated, noticed vaguely that hands were extremely chapped but didn't enter conscious mind until I got up in the middle of the night and couldn't keep my balance, thought to myself 'wow I should really not drink so much, this is embarrassing' then realized I hadn't been drinking at all, had a glass of water and was fine)

Well, hopefully these are due to forgetting to eat or drink :O 

Think sp-last maybe covers it but idk


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> So the interesting thing about you that crops up is that you are trying to assemble a system that makes thorough, unquestionable sense. You constantly collect input from others and attempt to weave a logically sound narrative that will ultimately make your type self-evident and concrete. If something just doesn't make sense, you spin the old narrative to find that thing that's bothering you and throw the whole thing out the window.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is to me your interaction with Ti is... loud. It drowns out all the other functions to me. And though I think I can verbalize your relationship with Ti alright, I cannot pinpoint where this particular relationship lands in Socionics. I can see it as HA or POLR or even suggestive at the moment. I feel like there's an epiphany within reach here so give me a moment, but yeah, that's what I tend to focus on whenever your type is brought up, that particular relationship dynamic with your own Ti.


Thanks so much for your input! This is interesting, appreciate it)


----------



## Turi

How much Star Wars do I need to watch to be a type 5 and can I speed the process up by playing WoW?


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> Low Si? High Si? Bad sp? Good sp? something, surely


IMO Si has little to do with body functions. (So does Se. Or any function.)

I'd put this with crappy SP. 



> I think Fe PoLR makes sense - for instance, I used to have - so many etiquette books, I would study and study them, but it was like I was learning the rules, the reason was that I wanted to know - exactly what to do - in every conceivable situation - because this isn't something I intuit


My understanding of PoLR is people basically see it as a waste of time? I literally can't imagine doing this, and 6s are supposed to care about people, too, I guess.

But I'm not really up on Socionics terms, to be honest; I don't even know what an HA is.


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> IMO Si has little to do with body functions. (So does Se. Or any function.)
> 
> I'd put this with crappy SP.


But a lot of people do talk about it like 'body functions' (ugh) and awareness of environment so I don't know what to think...what is Si, to you and how are you supposed to know if you use it?



> My understanding of PoLR is people basically see it as a waste of time? I literally can't imagine doing this, and 6s are supposed to care about people, too, I guess.
> 
> But I'm not really up on Socionics terms, to be honest; I don't even know what an HA is.


Well, I do a lot of weird things for a lot of things anyways so not being able to imagine it might not be the thing))

(remember once my brother walked into my room when I was memorizing kings and queens of England by having cards with their names on the floor as a timeline, he thought that was the oddest and most hilarious thing for anyone to do ever, he still brings it up as an example of how I am not a normal person XD which I don't think it's that weird lol I wanted my history to be better but it is the kind of thing I do that other people maybe don't do as much, similar to etiquette thing really)

and maybe kinda Te-ish? I mean I like knowing the facts and having things in tidy categories in my mind, definitely like being able to hear "So King James I was on the throne" and automatically knowing what years are a possibility, what else was going on at the time

which is not the case but I'm always trying to get there

But yeah idk function-wise but most people aren't on board with the way I study and learn things so idk don't expect anyone to relate to those things

HA - hidden agenda :ninja:


----------



## Dangerose

Nissa Nissa said:


> But yeah idk function-wise but most people aren't on board with the way I study and learn things so idk don't expect anyone to relate to those things


I've noticed, especially 6s, they get like mad at me for wasting my time or learning something stupid or the way I go about things, really I think it's the way I go about things more than anything else, idk


----------



## Dangerose

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> Remembered, I'm so...
> Like my father's girlfriend when I was younger was maybe a NFP(would say SFJ but looking back she was so much more delta than alpha I think) and something like a 1w2 most likely, very typically feeler-ish and sensitive, we got along for the most part but she hated how insensitive I was, like I remember when I was 8 or so having to write a report for school on a really sad story about a poor girl who froze to death on New Year's Eve, I laughed all the time and pretended I couldn't understand what's sad about the story, she got so mad. But like all the time, once I named my doll 'dead', well in my language it was a funny sounding new word that sounded like a funny name and I thought the real meaning was funny so that's what I named it, she told my dad hoping he'd tell me it's a bad name and I'd listen to him but he didn't get what the problem was either :laughing:
> But many things like that, partly because tbh I get extra like that when someone is annoying just to annoy them more but also I really don't get what's the big deal.
> Is that ExTP-ish? Anti high Fi/Fe? Just Se influence?


Hm it does seem a bit ExTPish, I'm not sure...maybe something like 8 or 7 influence too?
I mean, I can be similar in a way, never would have named doll anything 'dead'like lol because I was very protective of my dolls XD and kinda superstitious
With me I think I get uncomfortable when people talk too seriously or...whatever about something, like couldn't stand it when I was a kid and people wanted to have moment of everyone sharing feelings so I'd act...annoying, feels line-to-8ish maybe, but I think it's different
(Or like my mother just messaged me they're having an estate sale for our neighbour who died a few months back, I asked if she was going to buy anything, and she said like 'no, asked your brother if he wanted to and he said he wouldn't feel comfortable going into the house without her in it, I feel the same way' and that response made me want to strangle myself, just UGH why would you SAY something like that, definitely feels type-ish to me, lack of something, not sure what)

I get your thing is different, just Ne-ing around 

tl;dr I don't know but I do think it's probably something type-ish


----------



## Dangerose

^while people are vaguely mad about my typing I'll throw in that I've been thinking about 8 fix, might relate more than just line, been thinking about 1 fix too, not sure about that rn though, if anyone can see those or it militarily set on 9 I'd be curious of thoughts

(I mean it would be weird if I didn't relate to 8 or 1 at all as a 2 (w1?) but I'm not sure if that 9 in my tritype is really making sense)

(And I'm always a little back and forth about 6 or 7 for head fix, right now I feel quite set on 7 but that's possible to change)


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> wasn't clear if you were troubleshooting potential tangents or if you thought I was saying something like that


Sorry, no, that was tangential and admittedly not really related to much of what you said. 



> but you mentioned a myriad of misconceptions, what are all the misconceptions you have in mind?


Mainly was speaking about your misconceptions about T/F, probably I/E, and possibly the Judging functions.



Nissa Nissa said:


> ^while people are vaguely mad about my typing


I don't think anyone is _mad _about your typing, more exasperated at the misguidedness. There's a difference, even if the reaction might come out similar.


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> Sorry, no, that was tangential and admittedly not really related to much of what you said.


k 



> Mainly was speaking about your misconceptions about T/F, probably I/E, and possibly the Judging functions.


Ok 
Anyone who'd like to be more specific is welcome to it :laughing: I am happy to be guided 



> I don't think anyone is _mad _about your typing, more exasperated at the misguidedness. There's a difference, even if the reaction might come out similar.


yeah, I said 'vaguely' for this reason more or less, didn't know how to phrase)


----------



## goldthysanura

I wonder if I really am a 6. I just typed out all of my thoughts surrounding the social things I've been doing and the people I know and the feelings and thoughts I have about them, and Jesus...I'm not sure if a core 9 would question things this much. I drive myself crazy sometimes bouncing around from worry to worry!


----------



## Darkbloom

Oh, just to be clear, it wasn't a real girl that actually died that year or whatever, it was this








Don't know if I made that clear 

But still I can be quite typically ExTP-ish with feelings in some ways for various reasons and especially if other people are acting certain way, no time to elaborate now.


----------



## Krayfish

Are there any tritypes containing type 7 that aren't self indulgent? Now that my mental health has improved, it's become semi obvious that some of my defense mechanisms are 7-esque in nature (ie. Avoiding problems with compulsive optimism, consistent need for movement/doing something, lots of interests/skills to occupy time but no true passions/talents, ect ect). I'd figure if I can relate to these aspects of 7 that it might make more sense to have it as a fix rather than 6w7 (unless I'm secretly a 6 core). The problem is, that leaves tritypes 974 and 973 as options. I relate with 974 slightly more outside of the fact that it's super self indulgent and I don't think I'm actually capable of indulgence in the least outside of my gross indulgence in my fantasies. Any ideas?


----------



## Animal

I haven't been able to shake the feeling deep down that I'm a 4w5 for years.. so really, I made this decision myself. That said, I've now consulted top of the top experts in the field who immediately saw me as "very obviously 4w5" with a HEAVY (not light or hard to see) 5 wing, and a secondary 8 fix... based on my writing style, learning about me, video chat, etc. I did not even bring up my wing, really, but it was brought up as if it was the most obvious thing in the world, by the top of the top of the top people. Those of you who disagreed and voiced your honest protests, I appreciate every minute of it and I love a challenge. 

@*Hermetica* and @*mistakenforstranger*, take note: 
you may argue that experts can be wrong, and if so, I would agree that they can. That said, if this is the reaction I get from people in the field for several decades, who have worked with thousands of real people, taught real classes etc, then my idea about 4w5 was not nearly as outlandish as you both acted. Please consider this next time you reproach someone for an honest typing consideration. Even if they are wrong.. they probably have reasons for thinking what they do.

I wish you all luck on your journey. All of you.  I am very lucky to have had the chance to take real steps in this field.


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> I haven't been able to shake the feeling deep down that I'm a 4w5 for years.. so really, I made this decision myself. That said, I've now consulted top of the top experts in the field who immediately saw me as "very obviously 4w5" with a HEAVY (not light or hard to see) 5 wing, and a secondary 8 fix... based on my writing style, learning about me, video chat, etc. I did not even bring up my wing, really, but it was brought up as if it was the most obvious thing in the world, by the top of the top of the top people. Those of you who disagreed and voiced your honest protests, I appreciate every minute of it and I love a challenge.
> [...]


In the same breath, and by the same people, I have been recognized - first by @Animal and myself - as a Sx2. Early suspicions have been confirmed. I have been seen.

Not as easy a typing (except after the fact), but then again, _male Sexual 2_? Good luck identifying that.


----------



## Animal

Daeva said:


> In the same breath, and by the same people, I have been recognized - first by @*Animal* and myself - as a Sx2. Early suspicions have been confirmed. I have been seen.
> 
> Not as easy a typing (except after the fact), but then again, _male Sexual 2_? Good luck identifying that.


Yes - this was not a matter of "experts throwing out numbers and expecting us to believe them." They dug deep into us, saw our facebooks, pictures, my youtube & music, and spoke to us in depth about ourselves. They also laid out reasons for various types that could have been considered, outlining their own process of typing us very clearly and giving reasons, allowing us to ask questions and voice skepticism, addressing all of our concerns. So many of our own questions were answered, and when something like this happens it is eye opening... not only did we learn that we are right about our own types... and learned more (tritype specifics, instinct specifics etc) but also, we were introduced to many layers of typing process. It's one of those moments where... we already knew we had a lot more to learn, as everyone does; but this really showed us how much we DON'T know. The enneagram journey... as a typee, a typer, a teacher, a poster... it is all very humbling.  

We can't wait to take it further.


----------



## enneathusiast

Animal said:


> They also laid out reasons for various types that could have been considered, outlining their own process of typing us very clearly and giving reasons, allowing us to ask questions and voice skepticism, addressing all of our concerns.


Didn't see the SX 2w3 for @Daeva coming.

Care to share some details/insights about how that typing was determined?


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> I haven't been able to shake the feeling deep down that I'm a 4w5 for years.. so really, I made this decision myself. That said, I've now consulted top of the top experts in the field who immediately saw me as "very obviously 4w5" with a HEAVY (not light or hard to see) 5 wing, and a secondary 8 fix... based on my writing style, learning about me, video chat, etc. I did not even bring up my wing, really, but it was brought up as if it was the most obvious thing in the world, by the top of the top of the top people. Those of you who disagreed and voiced your honest protests, I appreciate every minute of it and I love a challenge.


Not challenging you (this time), just wondering what some more specific reasons are for w5? "Writing style" is really vague/inaccurate in my opinion, though I know some people use it as a clue. (Admittedly, sometimes I use it to identify unhealthier 6w7 influences, but it's rare.) Music I see as potentially inaccurate, too, but I'm not musically inclined in the least, so I'm not criticizing the idea of using it as another clue. I know they're all part of the puzzle, I'm just wondering what some other pieces specifically look like. Mostly asking to understand better.

Btw, I probably won't really comment on the typing(s), and this will probably be my only "input." :tongue:


----------



## Animal

enneathusiast said:


> Didn't see the SX 2w3 for @*Daeva* coming.
> 
> Care to share some details/insights about how that typing was determined?





Paradigm said:


> Not challenging you (this time), just wondering what some more specific reasons are for w5? "Writing style" is really vague/inaccurate in my opinion, though I know some people use it as a clue. (Admittedly, sometimes I use it to identify unhealthier 6w7 influences, but it's rare.) Music I see as potentially inaccurate, too, but I'm not musically inclined in the least, so I'm not criticizing the idea of using it as another clue. I know they're all part of the puzzle, I'm just wondering what some other pieces specifically look like. Mostly asking to understand better.
> 
> Btw, I probably won't really comment on the typing(s), and this will probably be my only "input." :tongue:


Thanks for the interest, both of you  

I will respond soon! Not ignoring you, but I have strep & other illness issues, thus I'm behind on a million things. I want to gather my thoughts on all of this, because it was more than just "a conversation" - these typings have been under consideration for quite a while, with minor differences (Daeva was leaning Sp/Sx and 2w1, etc). I appreciate your interest. It will take some processing to be able to give a thoughtful reply, and due to real life problems, that processing might take longer than I would like. So I'll post it around here when I have something coherent and well thought out to say.

The process itself is well thought out, but... both of us have taken _our whole lives_ into account in our typing process, so it's too much to boil down into a post til I've had some time to think. 

I will say this: showing off vs. not showing off, or self promoting vs. not self promoting, is not a consideration to determine the difference between 4w3 and 4w5 according to experts (or in most of the major enneagram books). Sx 4, either wing, will give off a show-off 'diva' vibe in many ways, and 4 with 8 fix, even more so. I had figured as much myself, based on reading and the general principles of the types, but hearing this explained by people with years of_ real life experience _put it into better perspective. With that concern off the table, my wing seemed obvious and clear to me, but like I said, I'll take some time to lay out the reasons clearly so I don't make a big mess here.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> I haven't been able to shake the feeling deep down that I'm a 4w5 for years.. so really, I made this decision myself. That said, I've now consulted top of the top experts in the field who immediately saw me as "very obviously 4w5" with a HEAVY (not light or hard to see) 5 wing, and a secondary 8 fix... based on my writing style, learning about me, video chat, etc. I did not even bring up my wing, really, but it was brought up as if it was the most obvious thing in the world, by the top of the top of the top people. Those of you who disagreed and voiced your honest protests, I appreciate every minute of it and I love a challenge.
> 
> @*Hermetica* and @*mistakenforstranger*, take note:
> you may argue that experts can be wrong, and if so, I would agree that they can. That said, if this is the reaction I get from people in the field for several decades, who have worked with thousands of real people, taught real classes etc, then my idea about 4w5 was not nearly as outlandish as you both acted. Please consider this next time you reproach someone for an honest typing consideration. Even if they are wrong.. they probably have reasons for thinking what they do.
> 
> I wish you all luck on your journey. All of you.  I am very lucky to have had the chance to take real steps in this field.


See, what troubles me about this post is not so much the enneagram typing, but how often you refer back to the experts as though their input is what you most respect and rely on in terms of personality typology. What's wrong with this picture is that what you describe is the absolute opposite of what Ti-dom is... it's anti-Ti. Relying on external logic frameworks such as the experts for guidance is actually what Te users do. Not Ti. Te users look outward to come to logical conclusions, while Ti users look inward towards their own internal framework of logical deduction. 

Ti in Socionics:



> Types that value Ti naturally question the consistency of beliefs that are taken for granted in everyday life. *They strongly prefer to make decisions based on their own experience and judgement, as opposed to relying on external authorities for knowledge*, which they use *only* as a last resort.


Secondly, yes I did like a post you made in the Enneagram 3 forum from five years ago back when you were self-typing as 3w4 because I think it truthfully reflects what you are most ashamed of. In your own words, you state that *you are not ashamed of incompetency*, what *you are ashamed of is deceiving yourself*. I think that alone reflects which wing you lean towards, but if you think I am wrong, then perhaps others in this thread can share their opinion of what they've interpreted and deduced for themselves from this post of yours:



Animal said:


> More than once, I've been accused of having no shame, and when I considered each accusation, I thought it was fair. It really does seem that I have no shame.
> 
> However, I must confess - I'm experiencing shame right now, very consciously.
> I'm dreadfully ashamed at having mistyped at 5w4 for so long. =/
> 
> I first studied enneagram 12 years ago, and I've helped so many others find their type and learn the system. *I'm not worried about being incompetent at the enneagram. What I feel shame about is much, much worse. I am ashamed that I deceived myself about my core type, while knowing the system perfectly well. I've always thought of myself as "self-aware."*
> 
> How could I be so stupid to write on the 5 forum, "I am my work," "My work is me," "I never make the same mistake twice," *"I decide who I want to be and I'll stop at nothing until I am that person."* How can I write all these things on the 5 forum and not see the light? How is it that I could type my closest friend at 3, even as I watched her score pile up at 5 on the test; and I could see through her, but could not see through myself??
> 
> ..grrrrr...
> 
> Quote from Timeless' description of Type 3:
> 
> 
> 
> timeless said:
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine that you are looking into a mirror. What you see is a reflection of yourself, an image that accurately portrays how you look. When a Type Three looks into that mirror, they see more than a passive reflection of themselves. Type Threes want to take control of that image and direct it as they wish.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote from my type-me thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe said:
> 
> 
> 
> *6. a.) How do you see yourself?*
> In the mirror, or in a photo after it’s taken. I prefer the photo option, because when I’m looking in the mirror, I actively work to improve my appearance, to make it more pleasurable to my own eye. When I look at a photo, it’s too late to make such changes, so I can “see” myself more accurately, at least, my “self” as it was in that moment in the past. If I look at enough photos, dressed in various costumes and alter egos, or best option, two of my alter-egos photoshopped together; then I really get a sense of “Self.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Okay, okay.. I'll stop being sassy and translate: My Self is best revealed to me through my own creative expression.
Click to expand...

Unless your story from above has changed suddenly and that you no longer feel ashamed of self-deception, but instead you feel ashamed of incompetency? I believe your answer reflects which wing you have.


----------



## Daeva

If you dig into my post history, the guts I have spilled here are laden with image- and heart related issues. Strong, core, undeniable, and not something I want to reproduce after the fact. But the evidence is written in the stone of PerC history. Both recent and far in the past.

No evidence of a pervasive issue around the head or gut center. If there is to the contrary, then I'm open to see it, but it is very unlikely to stand against the overwhelm of image/shame/sadness/heart-center struggles.

My typing thread on the Enneagram subforum is a testament to this.

From there, the options are limited to three types. Any of which - I am confident - surprise you to think of, in relation to the infamous user "Daeva."

At least I've received type 3 suggestions on another forum, _after _typing at type 2. But hey, I'll take it. It's progress!


----------



## Animal

Hermetica said:


> See, what troubles me about this post is not so much the enneagram typing, but how often you refer back to the experts as though their input is what you most respect and rely on in terms of personality typology. What's wrong with this picture is that what you describe is the absolute opposite of what Ti-dom is... it's anti-Ti. Relying on external logic frameworks such as the experts for guidance is actually what Te users do. Not Ti. Te users look outward to come to logical conclusions, while Ti users look inward towards their own internal framework of logical deduction.
> 
> Ti in Socionics:
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, yes I did like a post you made in the Enneagram 3 forum from five years ago back when you were self-typing as 3w4 because I think it truthfully reflects what you are most ashamed of. In your own words, you state that *you are not ashamed of incompetency*, what *you are ashamed of is deceiving yourself*. I think that alone reflects which wing you lean towards, but if you think I am wrong, then perhaps others in this thread can share their opinion of what they've interpreted and deduced for themselves from this post of yours:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless your story from above has changed suddenly and that you no longer feel ashamed of self-deception, but instead you feel ashamed of incompetency? I believe your answer reflects which wing you have.


Like I said, *I made this decision myself.*

Enneagram is about an inability to see yourself as you are. Thus it is wise, in order to use the system for what it is intended for, to consult others. When studying any system, it is wise to take in what information you can from as many places as possible, and draw your own conclusions.

I have repeated several times that the decision was my own, but I appreciate anecdotal data and input because of how enneagram works, and how it lifts the blinders we cannot remove on our own.

I appreciate your deep concern with my journey. If your mission is to prove me wrong, you can give up - I value your questions and concern, but not your opinion on my type, as you completely reword and deliberately overlook points I make in my posts, picking and choosing the sections you want to prove your arguments and discarding the rest, and then proceed to insult me publicly.


----------



## Paradigm

@Animal @Daeva
Oh, and any interest in sharing sources for others to get info from? Like who you talked to, which books if they have books, and so on? (Because tone is lost in text: Again, genuine request for information, not a "PROVE IT!" )


----------



## Animal

@*Hermetica*
Since you quoted my posts from that forum, I will quote my responses.





> @mistakenforstranger @Hermetica
> I noticed you ignored my post addressed to you in which I explained that I have been typed at 4w5 by top enneagram professionals, and I agree with the typing, and instead you thanked this old post on 3. I know you both think I have heavy 3 influence - so I wanted to address this. You are right, I do have heavy "3" influence, because I'm an image type. So I think this issue is crucial to address.
> 
> 
> To explain the discrepancy here: the professionals in question are perfectly aware of my previous reasons for considering 3 core as well as 3 wing. The issues I brought up in that post are pertinent to all image types, including 4w5 and 2w1. With an image core, image concerns will be deep, underlying, a driving force in life. Thanks for your interest in my process though, and for alerting me to this old post.
> 5 is also a competency type. Another quote from that same typing thread (which I wrote when I was strongly considering type 3) that I quoted is here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed. In sharing my work, I hope to function as a mirror for others. What success means, to me, is knowing that my fight to sing on my album, despite speaking in a whisper, has inspired someone else to create her own artwork. Success is hearing someone quote my lyrics or reference my stories because it expresses something SHE is feeling. I want people to see themselves in my work, rather than merely seeing “me.” I want to touch on something universal. And, through bearing my own soul, I hope to inspire others to express themselves honestly, and to pursue their dreams against all odds."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used the word 'success' several times in this post because I was exploring a 3 typing, and considering what the word might mean to me. This was only one part of my answer to the first question on the questionnaire, "What is your life about?"
> 
> 
> These two quotes are spelled out in 4 descriptions. Not 4w3, not 4w5, but four itself. Including Tom Condon's description.
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> 
> It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed. In sharing my work, I hope to function as a mirror for others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to touch on something universal. And, through bearing my own soul, I hope to inspire others to express themselves honestly, and to pursue their dreams against all odds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Condon:
> 
> 
> 
> At their best, Fours express the universals of human experience for all of us, articulating and affirming the reality of the inner life; insisting that dreams and feelings are as real as tables and chairs. Fours can be fine teachers and therapists in this regard. As one Four says, “The ability to describe internal experience as a result of having gone through it myself, and to work with other people therapeutically because I have devised ways to work with myself – I relate to that very well.” Fours can also be open advocates of the passionate life. “Avidity, curiosity, passion and anger are my conscious constructs,” a Four says, “They keep me from being too sad, from giving up.” Learning about themselves and applying the knowledge are strong tendencies for healthy people with this style.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The mirror stuff is also inherent to any image type. I will find his descriptions saying as much, although anyone who has studied enneagram basics knows this. Tom Condon has a few great articles about image types, among others, but I have to look for them.. this video gets to the heart of it, though..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again for bringing this to my attention, though - I forgot how much I loved some of my sassy answers on that questionnaire. ;D
Click to expand...




> Additionally, you will notice the word "Self conscious" in any 4 description.
> 
> 
> Let me repost my quote from above [the one from years ago that you ‘thanked’ in order to bring my attention].
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> 
> 6. a.) How do you see yourself?
> In the mirror, or in a photo after it’s taken. I prefer the photo option, because when I’m looking in the mirror, I actively work to improve my appearance, to make it more pleasurable to my own eye. When I look at a photo, it’s too late to make such changes, so I can “see” myself more accurately, at least, my “self” as it was in that moment in the past. If I look at enough photos, dressed in various costumes and alter egos, or best option, two of my alter-egos photoshopped together; then I really get a sense of “Self.”
> 
> 
> Okay, okay.. I'll stop being sassy and translate: My Self is best revealed to me through my own creative expression.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This post is not merely about mirrors. It is about self-consciousness, being conscious of self - which is listed in any 4 description (as well as any description of any image type, though it is emphasized in 4 descriptions).
> 
> 
> The rest is about getting a sense of SELF through my art, being mirrored in my art and 'self expression.' Again, this leads us back to Tom Condon's four description, as well as all other four descriptions you can find online, in a book, or anywhere else.
> 
> 
> I even took the trouble of bolding the parts that are specifically described as 'four.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will explain my meaning by juxtaposing parts of my quote with Tom Condon quotes from the same article (though again, you'll find his sentiments in any four description).
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> 
> When I look at a photo, it’s too late to make such changes, so I can “see” myself more accurately, at least, my “self” as it was in that moment in the past.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Condon:
> 
> 
> 
> This sensory richness is like the raw material of creativity and healthy Fours give themselves ways to express their intense inner life. A Four songwriter says, “When I write a song it reminds me that I have an identity. It’s like I get all my feelings out on paper. Then I can look down and really see them. They become manageable.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this, ouch, but so true (and pertains to 'looking at better angles in the mirror')..
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> 
> I actively work to improve my appearance, to make it more pleasurable to my own eye.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Condon:
> 
> 
> 
> In essence, they are willing to wreck everything to prove they are someone they are not – their romanticized self-image.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fours are part of the trio of Enneagram styles who reject themselves, overidentify with roles and have trouble knowing how they really feel. Fours specifically reject their “normal” qualities in favor of playing a role of someone distinctive and unique. “Unique” could mean anything from being exceptionally accomplished to defective and unable to function.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Envy is more than just wishing you had, say, another person’s money. At bottom, it’s an unconscious desire to be another person, someone with qualities you lack. In Fours, this takes two forms: longing to be someone else or longing to be a fantasy version of yourself. In their book, The Wisdom of the Enneagram, authors Don Riso and Russ Hudson write perceptively about the Four’s Fantasy Self, a compensatory, sometimes grandiose version of someone a Four wishes they were. This Fantasy Self is designed to counter the Four’s sense of rejection; it is who the Four will someday be when he is truly lovable. The Four, in effect, envies himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________
> 
> 
> Now, let's address this part of the quote from my same old post - the one you thanked - when I briefly mistyped at 3, after having mistyped at 5w4 for several years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> 
> How could I be so stupid to write on the 5 forum, "I am my work," "My work is me," "I never make the same mistake twice," "I decide who I want to be and I'll stop at nothing until I am that person." How can I write all these things on the 5 forum and not see the light? How is it that I could type my closest friend at 3, even as I watched her score pile up at 5 on the test; and I could see through her, but could not see through myself??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again I will juxtapose this with elements of four descriptions.
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> 
> ”I am my work," "My work is me,"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Condon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Unique” could mean anything from being exceptionally accomplished to defective and unable to function.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like Ones, healthy Fours can be morally courageous, idealistic and work hard for what they believe in. They are contributors rather than complainers, often committed to improving an imperfect world. Some have a distinct need to realize an inner vision in the outer world, perhaps by initiating innovative projects that have humanistic or artistic aims. To this end, they can be daring, determined and practical. “When I’m on my deathbed,” says one Four, “I hope I can look back on my life and be proud. I don’t want to waste my life on the frivolous.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear, "I am my work" has never meant "my job." It meant the work on my website which, as stated on my website linked in my signature, is to dig deep into my own soul to show what is real about me, and thus reveal universal truths about human nature and, as stated on my music page, to bring my home planet to Earth. This is my work.
> Please do not quote my website; I don't want to draw fans to this site. You can see this if you click on "Bio" or my music page (click on "Music" itself, not the tabs beneath - the quote is the last one on the page). I also outlined this on the same typing thread in the quote I provided before, here:
> 
> 
> ME:
> 
> 
> 
> "On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed. In sharing my work, I hope to function as a mirror for others. What success means, to me, is knowing that my fight to sing on my album, despite speaking in a whisper, has inspired someone else to create her own artwork. Success is hearing someone quote my lyrics or reference my stories because it expresses something SHE is feeling. I want people to see themselves in my work, rather than merely seeing “me.” I want to touch on something universal. And, through bearing my own soul, I hope to inspire others to express themselves honestly, and to pursue their dreams against all odds.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This ^^^ is my "work." The work that is "me."
> 
> 
> And again....
> 
> 
> Condon:
> 
> 
> 
> “The ability to describe internal experience as a result of having gone through it myself, and to work with other people therapeutically because I have devised ways to work with myself – I relate to that very well.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Avidity, curiosity, passion and anger are my conscious constructs,” a Four says, “They keep me from being too sad, from giving up.” Learning about themselves and applying the knowledge are strong tendencies for healthy people with this style.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say "I am my work," I am referring to THIS type of work.. as I have rarely ever had a job for long outside the creative fields of particular interest to me, and I consider my life's work - as I described in my longer quote - - - the exact things Condon is describing. Why would I say I "am" my work? Manson describes it well:
> 
> 
> Manson:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m not an artist - I’m a work of art!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So does Condon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “From the beginning,” a Four actor comments, “acting seemed like therapy, since I could transform my pain into something creative.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In essence, they are willing to wreck everything to prove they are someone they are not – their romanticized self-image.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fours are part of the trio of Enneagram styles who reject themselves, overidentify with roles and have trouble knowing how they really feel. Fours specifically reject their “normal” qualities in favor of playing a role of someone distinctive and unique. “Unique” could mean anything from being exceptionally accomplished to defective and unable to function.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This identification with one's creative work is also outlined by the Fauvres, who have met with real people of every type and collected anecdotal data about what those types say in order to describe themselves.
> 
> 
> Enneagram Type 4: The Romantic Individualist
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> 
> 
> I am my work/my art, I adjust my reflection in the mirror.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fauvres:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Need
> You need be seen as artistic, gifted and accomplished. You focus on your individuality and on carving your own distinct image. You need to express your deep feelings and want others to validate your emotions. Whether you are organizing your living space to reflect your refined tastes or engaging in an artistic pursuit, it is essential for your sense of well being that you express your creativity.
> 
> 
> Avoid
> You avoid feeling lost, disorientated and without personal significance, meaning or direction. You also avoid appearing inadequate, defective or flawed. Most importantly, you have a hidden fear of being emotionally cut off and abandoned. You avoid affectation and anything dull, ordinary, ugly, vulgar, inauthentic or distasteful.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> I only mentioned experts here because the rest of you like quotes and sources, and I wanted to make my point clear. You treated me as if I was completely insane, and that is not what the people who YOU ARE ACTIVELY QUOTING seem to think. I wanted YOU to know that. Like I said, my decision was my own.. so please reread my post. Also, the reason I do consult, is because enneagram is about lifting blinders in ways we cannot do ourselves; and I am not above that learning process. I study this system to help me lift my own blinders, and I humbly accept that I cannot do that fully on my own. If I could, I would not engage enneagram study at all.


VITAL to the Ti-Fe dynamo:

Its ability to adjust its language to its audience in order to get the message across. The higher the Fe, the better the individual is at this. Ti doms have to learn this the hard way (see @Animal 's history on this forum, for example).

If you explain something to a someone who can only show respect to sources, and not to independent thought, then sources are used to make it work.


----------



## Animal

Hermetica said:


> Unless your story from above has changed suddenly and that you no longer feel ashamed of self-deception, but instead you feel ashamed of incompetency? I believe your answer reflects which wing you have.


Hm, I don't know how you made the quotes show up so neatly here!! I tried to requote my answers for this thread in case anyone was wondering, but I answered you there, too. No, this is not wing dependent; all of my quotes are pure 4 stuff, as I show in my quotes.


----------



## Animal

Daeva said:


> VITAL to the Ti-Fe dynamo:
> 
> Its ability to adjust its language to its audience in order to get the message across. The higher the Fe, the better the individual is at this. Ti doms have to learn this the hard way (see @*Animal* 's history on this forum, for example).
> 
> If you explain something to a someone who can only show respect to sources, and not to independent thought, then sources are used to make it work.


^ Exactly, that's why I shared it with this thread this way. 

@*Hermetica*
My post was not about "please believe me because sources said so." My post was about "please show more respect." Like I said, SOURCES CAN BE WRONG - and I would agree with you if you said so! However, I wanted to press the point that other people with much more experience and merit in this field than you, have seen my reasoning , and these are people you quote and respect yourself.... so I would hope you take this into consideration when insulting and belittling the next person you don't agree with.

I am not here to argue about my type. I posted because I still feel hurt by the way I was treated and I wanted you to know that there was no merit in treating me that way, especially when YOUR OWN SOURCES disagree with you on my type and the meaning of types.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> @*Animal* @*Daeva*
> Oh, and any interest in sharing sources for others to get info from? Like who you talked to, which books if they have books, and so on? (Because tone is lost in text: Again, genuine request for information, not a "PROVE IT!" )


Yes, I will skype you.  Give me a few days though. Fever etc.


----------



## Animal

@Hermetica
I have made many posts on this forum detailing my own ideas, but where you and @mistakenforstranger are concerned, I have been met with nothing but contempt and an onslaught of sources intending to prove me wrong by overlooking my point. That is why I directed my post AT BOTH OF YOU ---- the post about sources.

With everyone else, I have an easier time arguing principle, and that is what I do.


----------



## Daeva

Hermetica said:


> See, what troubles me about this post is not so much the enneagram typing, but how often you refer back to the experts as though their input is what you most respect and rely on in terms of personality typology. What's wrong with this picture is that what you describe is the absolute opposite of what Ti-dom is... it's anti-Ti. Relying on external logic frameworks such as the experts for guidance is actually what Te users do. Not Ti. Te users look outward to come to logical conclusions, while Ti users look inward towards their own internal framework of logical deduction.
> 
> Ti in Socionics:


Then why do you type at INFJ and IEI?

Te PoLR, by your own argument, is the opposite from what you do.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> ^ Exactly, that's why I shared it with this thread this way. On our other forum where critical thinking is central, I did not mention the 'sources' because I did not need to, since those people value thinking about concepts for their own sake.
> 
> @*Hermetica*
> Anyway, my post was not about "please believe me because sources said so." My post was about "please show people more respect." Like I said, SOURCES CAN BE WRONG - and I would agree with you if you said so! However, I wanted to press the point that other people with much more experience and merit in this field than you, have seen my reasoning , and these are people you quote and respect yourself.... so I would hope you take this into consideration when insulting and belittling the next person you don't agree with.
> 
> 
> I am not here to argue about my type. *I posted because I still feel hurt by the way I was treated and I wanted you to know that there was no merit in treating me that way, especially when YOUR OWN SOURCES disagree with you on my type and the meaning of types.  *


An inferior feeling type that's still upset about something that happened over a month ago is a little odd, I'll give you that.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> @Hermetica
> I have made many posts on this forum detailing my own ideas, but where you and @mistakenforstranger are concerned, I have been met with nothing but contempt and an onslaught of sources intending to prove me wrong by overlooking my point. That is why I directed my post AT BOTH OF YOU ---- the post about sources.
> 
> With everyone else, I have an easier time arguing principle, and that is what I do.


Why are you dragging back up a debate that happened over a month ago? Didn't the moderator/admin warn us to stop talking about it and move on?


----------



## Cracked Actor

Daeva said:


> Then why do you type at INFJ and IEI?
> 
> Te PoLR, by your own argument, is the opposite from what you do.


My own type was never up for discussion. If I wanted external input from people who barely know me, I'd ask for it, but I don't.


----------



## Animal

Hermetica said:


> Why are you dragging back up a debate that happened over a month ago? Didn't the moderator/admin warn us to stop talking about it and move on?


Why are you dragging up my posts from 3 years ago?


----------



## Animal

Hermetica said:


> My own type was never up for discussion. If I wanted external input from people who barely know me, I'd ask for it, but I don't.


My type isn't up for discussion either. In my posts, I made it clear I am not interested in your opinion in my wing, and I also mentioned a month ago that I am not discussing ISTP here. So what gives? Can you respect my wishes or are yours the only ones you expect to be honored?


----------



## Animal

Hermetica said:


> An inferior feeling type that's still upset about something that happened over a month ago is a little odd, I'll give you that.


A low-thinking type who has thoughts and opinions is a little odd, I give you that. Because, you know, thinking types have no feelings and feeling types have no coherent thoughts. 

roud:


----------



## Daeva

Hermetica said:


> My own type was never up for discussion. If I wanted external input from people who barely know me, I'd ask for it, but I don't.


You can't have the cake and eat it too.

Your own argument is inconsistent with the behavior ( @*Animal* 's) that you criticize by fact of your own behavior+self-typing contradicting said argument.

My post wasn't a comment on your type as much as it was to show you the obvious inconsistency of your entire argument, one you have no problem directing at another user - but then fail to hold yourself to the same logic.


In other words, you are demonstrating that you don't know what the hell you're talking about, re: "Ti"


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Daeva said:


> Then why do you type at INFJ and IEI?
> 
> Te PoLR, by your own argument, is the opposite from what you do.


To be fair, I'd argue its exactly what Hermetica does. Hermetica often dredges up sources which are dubious at best for proving points because the source is being used to validate the point that is believed, bot because the source is reliable.The thing about Te PolR is that the Te is conscious and the Ti is semiconscious. Te PolRs will consciously use Te methods and be stressed out and ineffective doing so. Especially when Fe is the driving reason to do so, trying to creatively manage people or an environment.

I mean, look below for an example of Te-rejecting. The statement includes reference to "barely knows me" as though that removes the evidence of your own observations and invalidates your point, even when not knowing what your point would be. It's illogical an shows a reliance on inner logic. You see this all the time with Hermetica, constantly masking use of sources as the real thing in order to prove inner predrawn conclusions. That's NeTe rejection and Ti valuing. And a bit of Fi rejection.



Hermetica said:


> My own type was never up for discussion. If I wanted external input from people who barely know me, I'd ask for it, but I don't.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Daeva said:


> You can't have the cake and eat it too.
> 
> Your own argument is inconsistent with the behavior ( @*Animal* 's) that you criticize by fact of your own behavior+self-typing contradicting said argument.
> 
> My post wasn't a comment on your type as much as it was to show you the obvious inconsistency of your entire argument, one you have no problem directing at another user - but then fail to hold yourself to the same logic.
> 
> 
> In other words, you are demonstrating that you don't know what the hell you're talking about, re: "Ti"


Looks like you beat me to it.


----------



## Daeva

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> To be fair, I'd argue its exactly what Hermetica does. Hermetica often dredges up sources which are dubious at best for proving points because the source is being used to validate the point that is believed, bot because the source is reliable.The thing about Te PolR is that the Te is conscious and the Ti is semiconscious. Te PolRs will consciously use Te methods and be stressed out and ineffective doing so. Especially when Fe is the driving reason to do so, trying to creatively manage people or an environment.
> 
> I mean, look below for an example of Te-rejecting. The statement includes reference to "barely knows me" as though that removes the evidence of your own observations and invalidates your point, even when not knowing what your point would be. It's illogical an shows a reliance on inner logic. You see this all the time with Hermetica, constantly masking use of sources as the real thing in order to prove inner predrawn conclusions. That's NeTe rejection and Ti valuing. And a bit of Fi rejection.


Relying on outside sources every other post isn't Te vulnerable. Role at best, but that is obviously pretty laughable in this case.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> Why are you dragging up my posts from 3 years ago?


Because it is relevant to the enneagram type discussion of shame that is at hand, most specifically your shame since your personality is the subject, and the question of which is: what makes one *more* shameful -- self-deception or incompetency? As a 4w5, I have described at length my shame of incompetency, of feeling intellectually inferior -- probably in this very thread. That is something I rarely see you post about from your time here on this forum. What I have seen is your need for others to see an image of you as a successful musician/artist and the initiative you take to remind others of your successes when you painfully feel like your successes have been forgotten. You state in your post from years ago that you are _much more_ ashamed of deceiving yourself than you are of being incompetent. "Much more" being the operative words here.

Marlon Brando, a 4w5, describes his shame of incompetency quite openly in his documentary:



Marlon Brando: Listen To Me documentary said:


> Marlon Brando: I was always somebody who had unquenchable curiosity about people. I liked to walk down the street and look at faces. I used to go into corner of Broadway and 42nd street in an optimal cigar store. I would watch people for three seconds as they went by and tried to analyze their personalities by just that flick. The face can hide many things and people are always hiding things. I was always interested to guess the things that people did not know about themselves: what they feel, what they think, why they feel, how is it that we behave the way we do? What is the answer? Is there any answer? There's something that you *need* very deeply -- some kind of contact. Some experience to give you some sense of fulfillment. *I had a great feeling of inadequacy that I didn't know enough, that I didn't have enough education. I felt... dumb.*


^ The bolded is a sentiment that is shared by all 4w5 types as it ties in with the 4's issue of shameful inferiority and the 5's issue of (in)competency. If other 4w5 types (other than those involved in this debate) decide to enter this thread and say that they don't agree and that they don't share this sentiment then maybe I'll stand corrected. But 4w5s are more ashamed of incompetency than they are of self-deception. The wings reflect what they find most shameful about themselves. To claim that the wings have no bearing on that is absurd... if that were the case, then why have wings at all if "everything is 4"?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Never mind. I do not wish to say what I was going to say.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Animal said:


> My type isn't up for discussion either. In my posts, I made it clear I am not interested in your opinion in my wing, and I also mentioned a month ago that I am not discussing ISTP here. So what gives? Can you respect my wishes or are yours the only ones you expect to be honored?


I did not see the older post about the ISTP typing. I completely missed that and very likely didn't check this thread then, so I apologize for bringing that part up.

If you're not interested in my opinion on the wing/enneagram though, then I'm scratching my head as to why you thought it was a good idea to mention me out of the blue a month later and bring me back to this thread where the thread's very subject involves the discussion of mistypings. I'm confused as to the logic behind that decision. What was the purpose other than to add fuel on an old fire?


----------



## Daeva

Hermetica said:


> I did not see the older post about the ISTP typing. I completely missed that and very likely didn't check this thread then, so I apologize for bringing that part up.
> 
> If you're not interested in my opinion on the wing/enneagram though, then I'm scratching my head as to why you thought it was a good idea to mention me out of the blue a month later and bring me back to this thread where the thread's very subject involves the discussion of mistypings. I'm confused as to the logic behind that decision. What was the purpose other than to add fuel on an old fire?


Et voila:



Animal said:


> ^ Exactly, that's why I shared it with this thread this way.
> 
> @*Hermetica*
> My post was not about "please believe me because sources said so." My post was about "please show more respect." Like I said, SOURCES CAN BE WRONG - and I would agree with you if you said so! However, I wanted to press the point that other people with much more experience and merit in this field than you, have seen my reasoning , and these are people you quote and respect yourself.... so I would hope you take this into consideration when insulting and belittling the next person you don't agree with.
> 
> I am not here to argue about my type. I posted because I still feel hurt by the way I was treated and I wanted you to know that there was no merit in treating me that way, especially when YOUR OWN SOURCES disagree with you on my type and the meaning of types.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Daeva said:


> Et voila:


Okay. Couldn't she have PM'd it and maybe this thread wouldn't have derailed into what it is now? It feels less personal and more like a passive-aggressive attempt at public denouncement.


----------



## Daeva

Hermetica said:


> Okay. Couldn't she have PM'd it and maybe this thread wouldn't have derailed into what it is now? It feels less personal and more like a passive-aggressive attempt at public denouncement.


Perhaps your current feelings might clue you in to your own past behavior.


----------



## Cracked Actor

Daeva said:


> Perhaps your current feelings might clue you in to your own past behavior.


Not sure I follow. Can you elaborate?


----------



## Daeva

Hermetica said:


> Not sure I follow. Can you elaborate?


The word of the day is: _learn_.


----------



## Animal

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> To be fair, I'd argue its exactly what Hermetica does. Hermetica often dredges up sources which are dubious at best for proving points because the source is being used to validate the point that is believed, bot because the source is reliable.The thing about Te PolR is that the Te is conscious and the Ti is semiconscious. Te PolRs will consciously use Te methods and be stressed out and ineffective doing so. Especially when Fe is the driving reason to do so, trying to creatively manage people or an environment.
> 
> I mean, look below for an example of Te-rejecting. The statement includes reference to "barely knows me" as though that removes the evidence of your own observations and invalidates your point, even when not knowing what your point would be. It's illogical an shows a reliance on inner logic. You see this all the time with Hermetica, constantly masking use of sources as the real thing in order to prove inner predrawn conclusions. That's NeTe rejection and Ti valuing. And a bit of Fi rejection.


The problem is, my intent was misquoted and misread, and my thoughts taken completely out of context. His/her interpretation of my intent had nothing to do with what I stated in my own words.

Like we both pointed out, I only brought up sources because Hermetica and Mistaken had done this in the past and I wanted to address their concerns. They completely ignored my posts about ideas and concepts and interpretations and responded instead with links to sources, and demanded that I provide links to back up my own opinions, too. Hermetica was also very specific about which source material s/he would trust- Marilyn Manson was a liar, according to Hermetica, so the source would only be reliable if it was written by Russ Hudson himself. This was Hermetica's response to my attempts to explain why - when I interpret the theory and the meaning of 5 vs. 3, Manson would be a 5 winger, and 5 vs. 3 would not explain some of the issues Hermetica was bringing up (such as "5s don't self promote). Hermetica's response was "present sources that I consider valid, and not others, to prove your theory," rather than to dig into my ideas about the essential meaning of the types 3 and 5.


Thus, in order to communicate on the terms provided for me, I brought up experts, but I also mentioned that these expert opinions WERE NOT the reason I typed a certain way. I simply mentioned it because the experts and sources they were quoting invalidated their own points and arguments, and I wanted them to know that. I had no interest in delving deeply into my personal process with them, but I did want them to know that - since they trusted sources above my own arguments - their own sources (and those who wrote them) were in line with _my_ point of view rather than theirs.


Ti doms have proficiency with Te, but don't find it more relevant than understanding the concepts themselves. However, they do not pull concepts out of thin air when discussing a system invented by someone else. ISTPs are especially interested in concrete, anecdotal data to back up their own theories or test them out. 

Low thinking will be less proficient in logic, so when they are 'slipping up,' they may be prone to consider their own ideas paramount when it's convenient, and then list sources when it's convenient in order to prove someone else wrong, so there is less consistency. High thinkers by contrast will be more proficient in logic, thus more flexible in its application, and capable of responding in the other person's terms, disproving their own arguments using the methods provided by the opponent, and using these same methods more proficiently (including citation of sources). This does not necessarily mean the thinker's own ideas derived from those sources; but the sources are posted in order to provide more substance to an argument, especially when the opposite party is presenting sources to back up their case. The flexibility of the thinking functions in a higher position allows the thinker to frame the argument in terms that both parties can understand.

If the opposite party responds to this by saying, "I don't care about sources" - how convenient, now that the sources suddenly disprove their argument. To anyone concerned with logic, this does not suffice. The arguments, use of sources etc must be consistent. Either we are using sources, or we aren't. They cannot be discarded now that the opponent finds them inconvenient. 

Furthermore, any attempt to argue on Hermetica's terms (which included citing sources) was met with a post about how Ti doms don't care about sources and experts, which is an ad hominem argument, attempting to discredit the person (me) instead of addressing the point itself. This is ironic, considering Hermetica was quite picky about sources and experts and listed many in his/her own arguments, and yet, claims to be Te PoLR. As @*Daeva* pointed out, Hermetica's internal logic in this instance is inconsistent. If a Ti dom - with 3D Te - cannot quote sources to back up or flesh out an argument, why can a Te PoLR list source after source, and base an argument on sources?

When my sources and accompanying argument clearly proved Hermetica's points were invalid, the posts were answered with an attempt to invalidate my self-typing at ISTP by saying that Ti doms don't care about sources. This is not only ad hominem, but also lacking in consistency, considering it is coming from someone who uses many sources and self-types at Te PoLR.

Beyond that, sources are not "valid" when one person presents them, then suddenly "invalid" when the other presents them. This is inconsistent and illogical. Ti doms will be alert to internal inconsistencies such as these, which invalidate the opposite party's stance and betray holes in their thinking process. 

This willingness to ignore arguments and contradict oneself blatantly also betrays that the opponent's aim is not to deconstruct arguments and discuss theory, but rather, to prove the Ti dom wrong. It appears the argument about theory is being used as a pretext to make opponent look bad, as the interest in discussing theory is absent.

The argument presented against me was full of deflections, selective and out-of-context quoting of my own posts, and inconsistent internal logic, considering the things I was being accused of would apply even more strongly to the opposite party. However, the actual substance of my points was being conveniently ignored.


----------



## Kintsugi

I had an unintentional Enneagram "breakthrough" recently. 

Truthfully, I have not considered typology for a while now. I have been preoccupied with my post-grad, and have spent agonising months analysing myself from various different psychodynamic models and undergoing my own intense therapy as a requirement of the course. It's been hell, lol (but worth it, I believe).

I would like to be able to express and write about why I now type as core 1 but I'm still figuring things out and putting the pieces together. The process of teasing Enneatype from all other layers is complex and extremely difficult to articulate (I have yet to find an author who has done so successfully, imo). My own epiphany came as a complete surprise (I wasn't even looking for it), but hit me like a ton of bricks. I was unable to ignore what I was observing, and as a consequence, I find myself back in the land of Enneagram.


----------



## Animal

@Lord Fenix Wulfheart

While Ti doms will use outside sources to support their own argument, Te doms will derive their argument from outside sources.
Both types are proficient in all forms of logic. To say "Ti doms don't care about sources" is a misunderstanding of 4D valued Ti, which comes with 3D ignored Te.
Te is not strictly about sources - it is about pragmatism. There is nothing 'useful' or pragmatic about arguing about theory online.

Theoretical banter includes debating ideas offered by other theorists. It includes analysis of data, examination of ideas offered by other people in the field, and so forth. Socionics was created and explored by Ti egos, who reference Jung, Bebe, MBTI and other previous theorists in order to explain their points. They do not abandon Jung, who is the original source of the idea.

Jung himself typed as a Ti dom, and he was concerned with anecdotal data. His typings and theories were based on real life experience, experiments, analysis of Freud and other psychology and deep analysis of psychology through the lens of history, anthropology, color psychology as documented historically, etc. His books are full of references to outside cultures and histories which serve to back up his theories, and also, which enrich and enhance his theories.

No thinker is going to avoid taking in information, considering it, analyzing it and presenting it in an argument.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Daeva said:


> If you dig into my post history, the guts I have spilled here are laden with image- and heart related issues. Strong, core, undeniable, and not something I want to reproduce after the fact. But the evidence is written in the stone of PerC history. Both recent and far in the past.
> 
> No evidence of a pervasive issue around the head or gut center. If there is to the contrary, then I'm open to see it, but it is very unlikely to stand against the overwhelm of image/shame/sadness/heart-center struggles.
> 
> My typing thread on the Enneagram subforum is a testament to this.
> 
> From there, the options are limited to three types. Any of which - I am confident - surprise you to think of, in relation to the infamous user "Daeva."
> 
> At least I've received type 3 suggestions on another forum, _after _typing at type 2. But hey, I'll take it. It's progress!


I went digging. It wasn't too hard actually.



Daeva said:


> Typing at 9 helped me face very real and deep hurts, but the holy sins of sloth aren't my own. It just may be a greater sin to claim one that hasn't claimed me.
> 
> Dampening of anger, or that of the experience of one's own will in general, isn't my hell.
> 
> Rather, my true hell is the psychological self-castration of my will. 6 is the face of that beast. Cowardice and reactivity towards truth, lies, hidden intentions and motives. I react to inconsistencies as if I'm being chased by the inquisitors and their holy books. In reality, it is I who creates the witch hunts.
> 
> Paranoia is my deal. I don't trust anyone, and least of all myself. Fire and blood and lightning from the sky is what invoke in the hearts of my fellow man. I shall not be questioned, for I don't trust the questions.
> 
> Lol, I'm just messing around. *Still, my behavior is not "positive outlook" inherently trusting of people is it? It is painfully reactive to the slightest slight made and the intentions of my projected aggression.*
> 
> The logical inconsistencies of me typing at 9 have reached critical mass in my head. If I care anything at all about intellectual integrity and consistency, and believe me I do, then 9 is out. I refuse to be a hypocrite professing what I consider "truth" while the need to reshape reality to fit my delusions is glaringly obvious. I've always known typing at 9 was off in many ways, but what is better than to aggressively take a stand "as a 9" in the hopes that someone takes me down a notch and defeats my logic? I am not one to merely ask questions, as it feels too vulnerable to me to find myself in that position. Instead, I take on the mantle of the obvious wrong, the devil's advocate. Challenge is what begets change and the revelation of truth.


So, I guess in your focus on being a "heart/image" type, you've already forgotten in the course of two months (as this was posted on 8/13) that you had previously decided you weren't a positive triad type, which last time I checked, was incompatible with being a Type 2. So, you're either "painfully reactive" and "not positive outlook", or you're not a 2. What was that you said earlier? Oh right...



Daeva said:


> You can't have the cake and eat it too.


Interesting that even a Ti-dom in your presence was unable to notice the contradictions between your previous statements, huh? :wink:



Animal said:


> I will say this: showing off vs. not showing off, or self promoting vs. not self promoting, is not a consideration to determine the difference between 4w3 and 4w5 according to experts (or in most of the major enneagram books). Sx 4, either wing, will give off a show-off 'diva' vibe in many ways, and 4 with 8 fix, even more so. I had figured as much myself, based on reading and the general principles of the types, but hearing this explained by people with years of_ real life experience _put it into better perspective. With that concern off the table, my wing seemed obvious and clear to me, but like I said, I'll take some time to lay out the reasons clearly so I don't make a big mess here.


I actually think it's a very valid distinction. Why would a 5-wing feel the need to "show off" or "promote" themselves? These are issues and qualities seen in Type 3s. Last time I checked, Type 5s weren't very showy or self-promoting types. 4s and 5s are both withdrawn types, so the combination of _*two withdrawn types*_, in addition to the energy of a *Head Triad *type makes for a very un-showy person, despite the instincts, in my opinion. Surely, the *extroverted, id *energy of an *Image Triad* Type 3 would impel a 4w3 (i.e. *two image types*) to be showy, no? As far as self-promoting, Van Gogh was a 4w5, and he is said to have sold only one painting during his lifetime. He sure knew how to promote himself. :sad:

Here's a 4w3 *Social* (if you think it's merely due to the sx-instinct) type, talking about self-promotion and being showy! :shocked: 



> Interviewer : It's not enough for you to be Nomi, you must also wear the Nomi symbol?
> 
> Klaus : well you know now I'm in the business, *I like to promote myself, ans I think this is a very nice badge, this is my own design.*
> 
> Interviewer : It was said about you that you were either the 8th wonder of the world, or a tragic accident of the nature. What do you think of this definition?
> 
> Klaus : oh it's wonderful, it's extraordinary. I hope it's true.
> 
> Interviewer : *Who has drawn your costume?*
> 
> Klaus : I have.**
> 
> Interviewer : What does it mean ? (seeing Klaus' hesitation) Nothing?
> 
> Klaus : I don't know. I hope it means something, people talk about it a lot.
> 
> Interviewer : Why this clown-like, cold make-up?
> 
> Klaus : I don't think it's clown-like, I don't think it's cold. It's very theatrical, very intense. It's an unnatural make-up, made for stage. It's like a doll or a cartoon. You see it once and never forget it.
> 
> Interviewer : Why are you hiding behind this make-up?
> 
> Klaus : *I'm not really hiding, I'm showing out, because the way I am it's hard to look like a normal person.* You know, in the streets, when I was a kid, people always said I looked strange, and it made me feel very unhappy.* And all of a sudden I go on stage, and people like me for that ; but as soon as I'm outside, I feel like I have to hide, because people laugh at me, because of the way I look. Now I'm using this look, it works for me, I even exaggerate it. I used to hide my large forehead, but now I'm selling it*







Again, @*Hermetica* has also already given the example of 4w5 sx/so Marlon Brando, so if sx-instinct is the reason a 4 (regardless of wings) is showy, as you say, then where's his showiness?








Animal said:


> I had figured as much myself, based on reading and the general principles of the types, but hearing this explained by people with years of _real life __experience_ put it into better perspective.


Real-life experience, you say? Jung on Te:



> *The inherency-judgment of such extraverted thinking is objectively orientated, i.e. its conclusion always expresses the objective importance of experience.* Hence, not only does it remain under the orientating influence of objective data, but it actually rests within the charmed circle of the individual experience, about which it affirms nothing that was not already given by it.


A Ti-dom, or even Ti-user in general, should be very skeptical of expert opinion (i.e. the objective importance of experience) but from the above, you say you find it helpful, and for the exact reason (you italicized it even for emphasis in your original post) it is Te according to Jung. 

@*Animal*, I don't care if you type as 5-wing (though, at this point, I lean towards you being 3-wing), and I have even said in the past to you that I could see reasons for 5-wing (I can find those posts if you don't believe me), but you are NOT an ISTP (which I have held true to since the beginning of you typing as this), and anyone who says you are has only bought into the illusion you've recently created of yourself. Image type problems, am I right? :wink:Since you've been typing as ISTP, all I see is you trying to sound like you're a Ti-dom with carefully placed Ti buzzwords sprinkled throughout your posts, like "illogical" and "inconsistent" (which you never used to use in such frequency when you were typing as a Feeler, by the way), but Ti is never actually seen in your reasoning process, or if it is, it's forced. So, you can keep saying how you're the exception to the rule because you're a Ti-dom who's also a Type 4, or that you don't want to discuss your type, but I think this is blatant self-confirmation biasing on your part, and is extremely misleading, or "intellectually dishonest" as you are fond of saying, to keep using yourself as an example of a Ti-dom in order to "disprove" other people's arguments. Because, when you drop the "I'm an ISTP" act, you sound nothing like a Ti-dom:



Animal said:


> @*Hermetica*
> *My post was not about "please believe me because sources said so." My post was about "please show more respect." *Like I said, SOURCES CAN BE WRONG - and I would agree with you if you said so! However, I wanted to press the point that other people with much more experience and merit in this field than you, have seen my reasoning , and these are people you quote and respect yourself.... so I would hope you take this into consideration when insulting and belittling the next person you don't agree with.
> 
> 
> I am not here to argue about my type. *I posted because I still feel hurt by the way I was treated and I wanted you to know that there was no merit in treating me that way, *especially when YOUR OWN SOURCES disagree with you on my type and the meaning of types.


Seriously, I wish you would accept you're a Feeling/Ethical type, because you're moving further and further away from yourself. Take a lesson from @*Daeva*, who obviously practices what he preaches :laughing:



Daeva said:


> If I care anything at all about intellectual integrity and consistency, and believe me I do, then 9 is out. I refuse to be a hypocrite professing what I consider "truth" while the need to reshape reality to fit my delusions is glaringly obvious.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Animal said:


> @Lord Fenix Wulfheart
> 
> While Ti doms will use outside sources to support their own argument, Te doms will derive their argument from outside sources.
> Both types are proficient in all forms of logic. To say "Ti doms don't care about sources" is a misunderstanding of 4D valued Ti, which comes with 3D ignored Te.
> Te is not strictly about sources - it is about pragmatism. There is nothing 'useful' or pragmatic about arguing about theory online.
> 
> Theoretical banter includes debating ideas offered by other theorists. It includes analysis of data, examination of ideas offered by other people in the field, and so forth. Socionics was created and explored by Ti egos, who reference Jung, Bebe, MBTI and other previous theorists in order to explain their points. They do not abandon Jung, who is the original source of the idea.
> 
> Jung himself typed as a Ti dom, and he was concerned with anecdotal data. His typings and theories were based on real life experience, experiments, analysis of Freud and other psychology and deep analysis of psychology through the lens of history, anthropology, color psychology as documented historically, etc. His books are full of references to outside cultures and histories which serve to back up his theories, and also, which enrich and enhance his theories.
> 
> No thinker is going to avoid taking in information, considering it, analyzing it and presenting it in an argument.


That's sorta my point, though. I am saying that what we are seeing is low Ti and Te, not just obsessiveness about sources. There is a deeper level to the behavior being discussed.

I don't think anyone is asserting that Ti doms do or say anything. We were discussing Hermetica and low Ti.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Animal said:


> The problem is, my intent was misquoted and misread, and my thoughts taken completely out of context. His/her interpretation of my intent had nothing to do with what I stated in my own words.
> 
> Like we both pointed out, I only brought up sources because Hermetica and Mistaken had done this in the past and I wanted to address their concerns. They completely ignored my posts about ideas and concepts and interpretations and responded instead with links to sources, and demanded that I provide links to back up my own opinions, too. Hermetica was also very specific about which source material s/he would trust- Marilyn Manson was a liar, according to Hermetica, so the source would only be reliable if it was written by Russ Hudson himself. This was Hermetica's response to my attempts to explain why - when I interpret the theory and the meaning of 5 vs. 3, Manson would be a 5 winger, and 5 vs. 3 would not explain some of the issues Hermetica was bringing up (such as "5s don't self promote). Hermetica's response was "present sources that I consider valid, and not others, to prove your theory," rather than to dig into my ideas about the essential meaning of the types 3 and 5.
> 
> 
> Thus, in order to communicate on the terms provided for me, I brought up experts, but I also mentioned that these expert opinions WERE NOT the reason I typed a certain way. I simply mentioned it because the experts and sources they were quoting invalidated their own points and arguments, and I wanted them to know that. I had no interest in delving deeply into my personal process with them, but I did want them to know that - since they trusted sources above my own arguments - their own sources (and those who wrote them) were in line with _my_ point of view rather than theirs.
> 
> 
> Ti doms have proficiency with Te, but don't find it more relevant than understanding the concepts themselves. However, they do not pull concepts out of thin air when discussing a system invented by someone else. ISTPs are especially interested in concrete, anecdotal data to back up their own theories or test them out.
> 
> Low thinking will be less proficient in logic, so when they are 'slipping up,' they may be prone to consider their own ideas paramount when it's convenient, and then list sources when it's convenient in order to prove someone else wrong, so there is less consistency. High thinkers by contrast will be more proficient in logic, thus more flexible in its application, and capable of responding in the other person's terms, disproving their own arguments using the methods provided by the opponent, and using these same methods more proficiently (including citation of sources). This does not necessarily mean the thinker's own ideas derived from those sources; but the sources are posted in order to provide more substance to an argument, especially when the opposite party is presenting sources to back up their case. The flexibility of the thinking functions in a higher position allows the thinker to frame the argument in terms that both parties can understand.
> 
> If the opposite party responds to this by saying, "I don't care about sources" - how convenient, now that the sources suddenly disprove their argument. To anyone concerned with logic, this does not suffice. The arguments, use of sources etc must be consistent. Either we are using sources, or we aren't. They cannot be discarded now that the opponent finds them inconvenient.
> 
> Furthermore, any attempt to argue on Hermetica's terms (which included citing sources) was met with a post about how Ti doms don't care about sources and experts, which is an ad hominem argument, attempting to discredit the person (me) instead of addressing the point itself. This is ironic, considering Hermetica was quite picky about sources and experts and listed many in his/her own arguments, and yet, claims to be Te PoLR. As @*Daeva* pointed out, Hermetica's internal logic in this instance is inconsistent. If a Ti dom - with 3D Te - cannot quote sources to back up or flesh out an argument, why can a Te PoLR list source after source, and base an argument on sources?
> 
> When my sources and accompanying argument clearly proved Hermetica's points were invalid, the posts were answered with an attempt to invalidate my self-typing at ISTP by saying that Ti doms don't care about sources. This is not only ad hominem, but also lacking in consistency, considering it is coming from someone who uses many sources and self-types at Te PoLR.
> 
> Beyond that, sources are not "valid" when one person presents them, then suddenly "invalid" when the other presents them. This is inconsistent and illogical. Ti doms will be alert to internal inconsistencies such as these, which invalidate the opposite party's stance and betray holes in their thinking process.
> 
> This willingness to ignore arguments and contradict oneself blatantly also betrays that the opponent's aim is not to deconstruct arguments and discuss theory, but rather, *to prove the Ti dom wrong. It appears the argument about theory is being used as a pretext to make opponent look bad, as the interest in discussing theory is absent*.
> 
> The argument presented against me was full of deflections, selective and out-of-context quoting of my own posts, and inconsistent internal logic, considering the things I was being accused of would apply even more strongly to the opposite party. However, the actual substance of my points was being conveniently ignored.


I have no comment whatsoever on your type. I was speaking only of behavior I have observed from Hermetica.

I do not intend to provide the external validation you are seeking. I have no interest in proving that you are objectively X or objectively Y, as I don't know enough about you either way.

Why does it look like you are trying to argue against my saying that Hermetica's logic use is good when I have stated the exact opposite? Your response is quite confusing.

What I have bolded is a good way to state the point I was fumbling to get at. What I referred to as Fe reasons for doing something.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Hermetica said:


> Okay. Couldn't she have PM'd it and maybe this thread wouldn't have derailed into what it is now? It feels less personal and more like a passive-aggressive attempt at public denouncement.


The answer is yes. It could have been a private PM.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

This thread feels like a warzone. I believe that someone is gonna get hurt.

*cracks knuckles*

All right. Bring it. I can deal with TWO hangnails, at the SAME TIME. Surely I can handle this.


----------



## Animal

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> That's sorta my point, though. I am saying that what we are seeing is low Ti and Te, not just obsessiveness about sources. There is a deeper level to the behavior being discussed.
> 
> I don't think anyone is asserting that Ti doms do or say anything. We were discussing Hermetica and low Ti.





Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I have no comment whatsoever on your type. I was speaking only of behavior I have observed from Hermetica.
> 
> I do not intend to provide the external validation you are seeking. I have no interest in proving that you are objectively X or objectively Y, as I don't know enough about you either way.
> 
> Why does it look like you are trying to argue against my saying that Hermetica's logic use is good when I have stated the exact opposite? Your response is quite confusing.
> 
> What I have bolded is a good way to state the point I was fumbling to get at. What I referred to as Fe reasons for doing something.


What makes you think I am seeking external validation? 
Why are you putting words in my mouth and interpreting my post as 'seeking validation?'

I was explaining my point of view about why @Daeva 's post was relevant. I was not "seeking" anything from you.

And yeah, neither Daeva nor I was really questioning Hermetica's type - Daeva was making the point that if Hermetica was claiming that a Ti type cannot reference sources at all, then Hermetica cannot be INFJ because he/she references sources himself/herself. The point was that Hermetica's argument was inconsistent. Neither of us care about Hermetica's type.


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> I went digging. It wasn't too hard actually.


You clearly didn't try hard enough.



> So, I guess in your focus on being a "heart/image" type, you've already forgotten in the course of two months (as this was posted on 8/13) that you had previously decided you weren't a positive triad type, which last time I checked, was incompatible with being a Type 2. So, you're either "painfully reactive" and "not positive outlook", or you're not a 2. What was that you said earlier? Oh right...


None of what you quoted goes against me being an Image type, which was the point I made.

You want so badly to "prove us wrong" that you twist and turn the words we say in order to fit your petty agenda. My post was about me being an Image type, I didn't even mention reactivity in the post that you reacted to. When are you going to stop failing and be awesome instead?



> Interesting that even a Ti-dom in your presence was unable to notice the contradictions between your previous statements, huh? :wink:


No contradiction to be found in my post. 

You're trying too hard to be witty, it only works when your point actually makes sense. Try that next time.


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> @*Animal*, I don't care if you type as 5-wing (though, at this point, I lean towards you being 3-wing), and I have even said in the past to you that I could see reasons for 5-wing (I can find those posts if you don't believe me), but you are NOT an ISTP (which I have held true to since the beginning of you typing as this), and *anyone who says you are has only bought into the illusion you've recently created of yourself.* Image type problems, am I right? :wink:Since you've been typing as ISTP, all I see is you trying to sound like you're a Ti-dom with carefully placed Ti *buzzwords *sprinkled throughout your posts, like "illogical" and "inconsistent" (which you never used to use in such frequency when you were typing as a Feeler, by the way), but Ti is never actually seen in your reasoning process, or if it is, it's forced. *So, you can keep saying how you're the exception to the rule because you're a Ti-dom who's also a Type 4*, or that you don't want to discuss your type, but I think this is blatant self-confirmation biasing on your part, and is extremely misleading, or "intellectually dishonest" as you are fond of saying, to keep using yourself as an example of a Ti-dom in order to "disprove" other people's arguments. Because, when you drop *the "I'm an ISTP" act*, you sound nothing like a Ti-dom:


If you're going to make a rebuttal to someone's self-typing, it serves you well to *NOT INSULT THE OTHER PARTY.
*
This was the entire point that @*Animal* was trying to make to begin with. You are only defeating your own argument by your senseless insults and antagonism.




> Seriously, I wish you would accept you're a Feeling/Ethical type, because you're moving further and further away from yourself. Take a lesson from @*Daeva*, who obviously practices what he preaches :laughing:


She said her type wasn't under discussion. Is this you being willfully antagonistic?


----------



## Animal

@*mistakenforstranger*
Another lovely "gotcha" attempt, but nothing worth responding to. I skimmed long enough to know I don't have the interest in reading most of it. I thank you again for your ongoing interest in my journey, but like I mentioned more than once, my type is no longer up for discussion, so kindly refrain from naysaying, "gotcha" attempts, referencing old posts and smileys aimed at mocking me and disproving my self-typing. 

I have enjoyed hearing opinions on this thread, receiving feedback about how I come off (which many other users were providing), and asking people for feedback who I have talked to since I joined the forum in 2012, and who have been there with me throughout my healing from my most recent traumas and my typing journey. But now, your repeated 'gotcha' attempts, accusations, character assassinations, attempts at discrediting me, using a typing process as a pretext to insult me and overlooking central points in order to pull up old posts and prove that I'm wrong, have killed my interest in discussing anything about myself - including my ideas and theories about typology. I put a lot of time, research, thought, study and practice into my ideas, including asking questions and gathering data in order to acquire anecdotal evidence and explore how my theories pan out in reality. I used to share some of my personal conclusions here, but due to the passion and care I put into them and the cruel mockery with which they have been received as of late, I have stopped sharing them and deferred to referencing external sources.

This forum used to be a haven for me when I was unduly traumatized and trying to recover - too broke and too chronically ill to see therapists or take gym classes or go on retreats or vacation, or those type of things - and desperately in need of something.... anything. I am a very emotionally autonomous person, and in the past, I always turned to my music, art & diaries and not to people. I even believed that diaries and art were the place to share romantic feelings, as they did not belong in romantic relationships. I would only be rejected for them.

This forum was the first place where I ever opened up about so many things about myself, and opened myself up to feedback. I was not planning to do that, but the kindness, support and love I received was overwhelming and it helped to open me up and allow me a new way to heal. This helped me to break some of the insular, support-rejecting, humanity-rejecting and self-rejecting habits I had built up over many years in order to cope with trauma. It was the right time and place to try healing myself in a new way, to open up, to communicate, to learn to be human. As Einstein says, insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. This was my chance to change.

Those old posts you pull up are from that time, when I had nothing but the tiny shred of hope that one day I might have hope again. I am very happy to say this forum helped me turn my life around. 

Now, I can no longer open up at all here, even about something as small as considering a wing, without being knocked down, mocked, belittled and insulted. I've started my own forum elsewhere, and I'm doing great anyway, but it still hurts to be treated this way in a place that was once a haven for me. Things have changed... I cannot expect kindness, empathy or genuine humanitarian discussion here anymore.. I see that now.

Thus, I kindly ask you and @*Hermetica* to refrain from commenting on my type (enneagram, Socionics or MBTI), my typing process, or anything related to my past posts. If you want to argue theory itself, I welcome it, should I post again. I barely post on this forum anymore because of the sick feeling I get in my stomach when the two of you gang up in some attempt to quote old posts, twist my words, ignore the ones that you can't twist, and do anything in your power to "gotcha" rather than offer empathetic input about something as sensitive as someone's typing process. 

I am flattered that you're so obsessed with my type in both systems, but I can't pretend your cruelty does not make me mourn being part of the human race --- and that is the very feeling I worked so hard to shake by opening up here; the utter isolation and feeling that I'm not part of this species at all and I'm stuck here among heartless creatures who lack compassion and empathy, and I have to crush my humanity and wear armor in order to survive it. On top of that, other people are getting annoyed with the bickering. So let's cut it out, shall we? 

Keep it about theory, not about me. *My type is no longer up for discussion*, specifically by you and Hermetica. I have enjoyed feedback from others, but you are uninvited.







And just to be clear, *I am no longer accepting typing feedback from anyone*. I wish I could, as I have learned and grown so much here and I would love to continue the open process of welcoming feedback about myself even if I disagree on numbers, but some recent experiences, especially with you and Hermetica, have spoiled my interest in being evaluated on this forum once and for all. 

To everyone else: If you know me and you are my friend, or you are genuinely curious, feel free to PM me. I cannot guarantee I'll respond at length about my type, because the subject is exhausted; but I don't want to stop people who have been kind to me from saying their piece if they so desire.



Hermetica said:


> Okay. Couldn't she have PM'd it and maybe this thread wouldn't have derailed into what it is now? It feels less personal and more like a passive-aggressive attempt at public denouncement.


"Passive aggressive" does not apply when someone quotes a post to you or mentions you DIRECTLY and points out something in your logic that doesn't make sense to them. You might argue it's straight up aggressive, but that would also be hard to back up considering this was a debate, and you were coming at both of us much harder about our types last time we spoke.

THIS is what a passive aggressive attempt at a public denouncement looks like. Not even mentioning me, but paraphrasing [your distorted, blatantly off-base, fictional rendition of] my posts in an entire post whose sole purpose was to brutalize my character in public. Why wasn't THIS a PM?


* *







Hermetica said:


> Haha. Saul Goodman, the quintessential 3w2. Though the way he goes about self-promotion and cutting corners to get ahead in the "Better Call Saul" TV show actually amuses me. Though I don't really care for the Jimmy Fallon parody of it. :bored: Anytime Jimmy appears in anything I get this "ugh, not him" feeling, lol. Not a fan of Jimmy Fallon. :tongue:
> 
> @*mistakenforstranger* I definitely agree with you there that the lack of credible sources that some people can bring into type debates time and time again is problematic. For example, if I was a really deceitful person, I could very easily make a false claim to you right now that I met a celebrity, let's say it's Thom Yorke for the sake of this example, and that Thom Yorke told me that his enneagram was 5w6 or something. There would be no way for others to refute this claim because they didn't meet Thom Yorke whereas I am claiming to have met him, so others are essentially left with the blind promise of "taking my word for it" while this deceitful version of me has never offered a credible source to backup these type of claims other than regurgitating very typical "I know a guy who knows his type" empty-handed claims. Anyone with a halfway decent brain can conclude that it's faulty logic to even consider entertaining the legitimacy of such implausible claims and that the person who resorts to this debasing debate style is fully deserving of the "smells like bullshit" meme.
> 
> Indeed, debates are a strange thing. When one party of a debate no longer has a solid argument to stand on except for smoke and mirrors, the debate suddenly turns personal -- this party will resort to counterphobic projection of personal insecurities onto the opposing party in a failed attempt to "shake" the opponent and to diminish that party's character and credibility.
> 
> I imagine it must be even stranger to be the type of person who lacks _so much_ self-awareness that, even after several years of studying personality theory and consulting with many personality typology experts, they still don't have a clear, concise idea of their own personality type by now. Even stranger still when the story of a person's life and their behavioral issues changes to fit every new self-typing under the sun. Alas, it appears that such is the tragic fate of those with an unstable sense of self.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> @*Animal* @*Daeva*
> Oh, and any interest in sharing sources for others to get info from? Like who you talked to, which books if they have books, and so on? (Because tone is lost in text: Again, genuine request for information, not a "PROVE IT!" )


I had posted these yesterday - I reposted it here but formatting was weird. Condon's writing and the Fauvres' writing are mentioned in my post, though I could come up with many more - since we own about 20 enneagram books. 

But these posts were from yesterday, with some source quotes, so I might as well show you..

http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-forum-achiever/56996-what-you-ashamed-2.html#post38755681

http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-forum-achiever/56996-what-you-ashamed-3.html#post38756129


----------



## Animal

Kintsugi said:


> I had an unintentional Enneagram "breakthrough" recently.
> 
> Truthfully, I have not considered typology for a while now. I have been preoccupied with my post-grad, and have spent agonising months analysing myself from various different psychodynamic models and undergoing my own intense therapy as a requirement of the course. It's been hell, lol (but worth it, I believe).
> 
> I would like to be able to express and write about why I now type as core 1 but I'm still figuring things out and putting the pieces together. The process of teasing Enneatype from all other layers is complex and extremely difficult to articulate (I have yet to find an author who has done so successfully, imo). My own epiphany came as a complete surprise (I wasn't even looking for it), but hit me like a ton of bricks. I was unable to ignore what I was observing, and as a consequence, I find myself back in the land of Enneagram.


Ooh I can't wait to read your posts about it. 
I won't comment on your type one way or other, I am just curious to see where you're at. I've always seen a 1 case anyway. I don't sign on here much, but if you want to tag me, feel free, and then I will see it when I'm around! (No pressure if you don't want to, though.)


----------



## Animal

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> This thread feels like a warzone. I believe that someone is gonna get hurt.
> 
> *cracks knuckles*
> 
> All right. Bring it. I can deal with TWO hangnails, at the SAME TIME. Surely I can handle this.


Lol. I don't want to fight anymore which is why I uninvited comments on my type several times (though my request was unfortunately ignored repeatedly). I should also reiterate that when you said I was seeking 'validation,' it was offbase, considering I had already asserted that I don't want any more feedback on my type.  Just repeating that AGAIN because it seems you didn't see it.

But you're cool. I've never had a problem with you.  I appreciate your attempt to explain different sides of people's points here.


----------



## Animal

Disclaimer: I am not kicking up a typing argument, but I am defending myself from public slander based on presumption, conjecture and straight up lies. I also wanted to address some misconceptions about wings and the meaning of types.




Hermetica said:


> Secondly, yes I did like a post you made in the Enneagram 3 forum from *five years ago* back when you were self-typing as 3w4 because *I think it truthfully reflects what you are most ashamed of.* In your own words, you state that *you are not ashamed of incompetency*, what *you are ashamed of is deceiving yourself*.



Even if you took a survey of 100 of my posts from 5 years ago instead of just one, it would _still_ be quite presumptuous to say this about me, not to mention, you probably wouldn't, because I did post at length about my shame about incompetency and much more. I am not denying that this post was legit or that I still agree with it, but just pointing out that, on principle, this presumption of yours is extreme, and if you had a wider scope by which to judge the depths of my shame, even a wider scope of my old posts, you would not be able to claim that I don't have shame about incompetency as well.

You don't know me, you haven't followed all my posts let alone met me in real life or even on PM - how can YOU possibly claim to know what I am TRULY _most_ ashamed of? That is quite a drastic thing to presume. Let me repeat this:



> *I think it truthfully reflects what you are most ashamed of*


Damn.. that is a bold claim to make about someone else. *You* think it _truthfully_ reflects what I am most ashamed of. Yet you have claimed I am lying in some of my other posts. Who gets to decide which of my posts are "truthful" and what I am _truly_ most ashamed of?



Hermetica said:


> As a 4w5, I have described at length my shame of incompetency, of feeling intellectually inferior -- probably in this very thread.


The problem with this argument is that it presumes I agree with your self typing, which I have never stated. You don't want feedback on it, so I have no place stating whether I agree with it or not.




> Unless your story from above has changed suddenly and that you *no longer feel ashamed of self-deception, but instead you feel ashamed of incompetency?* I believe your answer reflects which wing you have.


The other problem with your argument, as well as the conclusions you have drawn about my wing based on this presumption aboutme, is that there's no basis for any image type to have bigger problems with competency than with self-deception. Self-deception - and shame about it - lies at the root of all image types. Fours are especially aware of this, 4w5s most of all, as they understand the illusions they create about themselves and the black void of nothing that they would become without those illusions.

Understanding the Enneagram with Judith Searle 



> I would suggest that Four and Five, the two types that flank the gap, in a sense do not have wings to each other so much as each has one wing to the ultimate darkness. Both these types are notable for their problems with identity. Four solves the problem by defining its identity in its capacity for feeling, while Five defines its identity in its capacity for thought. But both are vulnerable, in their pathological levels, to a perceived "loss of self," a special relationship with the abyss.




I am not posting this to argue about my typing or yours, but to address the concept that your arguments about being more concerned with competency than self-deception are counter to 4w5.... or even 5w4, by many standards. 

--Again, not addressing your self typing, because you may have other reasons to care about this, as do I. And many, many many of my old posts refer to my issues with competency as well, if you must know. However, this is not what makes an image type or a 4w5.--





> But 4w5s are more ashamed of incompetency than they are of self-deception.


3 and 5 are both competency types. Again, see Tom Condon's video on 



.

Also, here are some more enneagram basics.
Energy & The Enneagram – 3. The Heart Triad – Lynette Sheppard | Nine Points Magazine



> The Heart Triad-Types Two, Three, and Four
> Two, Three, and Four make up the heart center triad. The emotion that fuels their drives is grief. Other Enneagram authors also refer to this triad as the “image” triad, due to these three types’ concern with how others perceive them. Grief or sadness ensues when each feels he or she has substituted an image as full or partial replacement for the Self.


Enn9styls1.html



> In the Enneagram's organization, Twos, Threes and Fours form an emotional trio, in that they share general tendencies and undercurrents. People within this trio of styles can experience a kind of ongoing confusion about their identities, confusing who they are with the roles that they play and images of who they seem to be.
> All personality styles do this somewhat, but Twos, Threes and Fours are most deeply prone to confuse seeming with being. They share a general propensity for losing track of how they actually feel in favor of how they imagine they feel within the roles they are playing. People with these styles are prone to conflicts in relationships and matters of the heart.



Again, these are basics I have learned and grasped several years ago, as evidenced in the posts from 5 years ago that you dug up in an attempt to make a point about me, which I thank you for, because those quotes which I wrote when I was mistyping actually were some of the most fourish things I've seen on this forum (more evidence that I don't change my presentation, or what I say about myself, with my new typings, as mistaken suggests in the quote below). I also happen to like those quotes for my own purposes so I am glad you found them, as they serve to demonstrate the point I am trying to illustrate about image types quite well!



mistakenforstranger said:


> you are NOT an ISTP (which I have held true to since the beginning of you typing as this), and anyone who says you are has only bought into the illusion you've recently created of yourself. Image type problems, am I right? :wink:Since you've been typing as ISTP, all I see is you trying to sound like you're a Ti-dom with carefully placed Ti buzzwords sprinkled throughout your posts, like "illogical" and "inconsistent" (which you never used to use in such frequency when you were typing as a Feeler, by the way), but Ti is never actually seen in your reasoning process, or if it is, it's forced.


If I was trying to sound like a Ti dom, why would I talk about my hurt feelings about how I'm being treated and use sad faces along with it? This is an odd assertion in this context.

Also, you are incorrect about me using different words from my old posts. Dig back just in this thread. You'll find it easily. Please do not repost my old posts anymore, however. I am saying this for you and anyone else that cares to look into my wording and how I act when I argue. My tone, presentation and vocabulary has improved over the course of 5 years, along with my competency and confidence in enneagram, but nothing in my vocabulary or presentation has changed suddenly with any of my typings. If there is any change it is gradual and unrelated to typings -- barring the fact that each typing is a result of having learned much more about the system and how I fit into it, which helps my confidence when posting about the topic.

Thankfully, Hermetica reposted my post from 5 years ago, which I wrote when mistyping at 3, and I demonstrated very clearly why it is 4, and how it lines up with the arguments I have made about 4 on this thread as of late. This goes to show that my self-reporting has been consistent for 5 years -- and that is self-evident and easy to prove thanks to both of your digging. The irony is, your post of mine served to prove my point instead of yours. 

To see how my post (when I was not typing at 4) clearly lines up with 4 as described by Tom Condon, the Fauvres, and anyone else you can find - see these posts.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-forum-achiever/56996-what-you-ashamed-2.html#post38755681

http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-forum-achiever/56996-what-you-ashamed-3.html#post38756129


P.S. Please spare me the lectures on Ti and sources. I have no interest in sharing my personal ideas on this forum anymore for reasons I explained already. Also, I am planning to train more in enneagram and write a book in the future, and this forum claims any posts written as THEIR intellectual property. Thus, I am keeping my intellectual property off this forum, and deferring to external sources in order to remind everyone on this thread of the basics which I already learned 5 years ago. I explained this to both of you, several times, during the last argument.

You are welcome to your opinions on my cognitive type, but the 'sources' argument is a result of factors outside of your scope, and does not reflect my personality, as I have shared my own ideas here since the beginning. It also does not reflect the meaning of Ti dominance, as I explained in a previous post, since Ti dominants enjoy analyzing sources and testing, developing, clarifying, building and deconstructing their own ideas by exploring external information, anecdotal data and the like. Ni doms are most often accused of sprouting information out of thin air, but even they require external input before they can comment on any system, philosophy, or concept that is derived from outside their own internal states. In other words, a Ni dom discussing enneagram is still discussing a system extrinsic to themselves.


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## Asd456

This is getting ridiculous and the argument over wing 3 or wing 5 is getting out of hand. Animal is still a core 4 and that is more significant.

I don't even think wing is that accurate. Or tritype. IMO, wing doesn't work for every type. Wing doesn't work for some people and there's also the argument that you have both wings.


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## Animal

Asd456 said:


> This is getting ridiculous and the argument over wing 3 or wing 5 is getting out of hand. Animal is still a core 4 and that is more significant.
> 
> I don't even think wing is that accurate. Or tritype. IMO, wing doesn't work for every type. Wing doesn't work for some people and there's also the argument that you have both wings.


Yes, I agree.
I am not arguing about my wing just to be clear. I am only clearing up misconceptions (the way I see it) about the drastic difference between 4w3 and 4w5 which keeps being stated here. 

It appears to me that the argument for "you can't be 4w5 because.." is actually discarding the basic meaning of being a 4 or an image type. I am posting because I wish to address that notion. A 4w5 is still a 4, so identity/shame/competency (3 or 5) , all of these issues need to be central for the person to be a 4. A 4 is a 4 is a 4.

I know my own view, and it is based on deep exploration of theory, deep consultation with myself and others about their own experiences, having read at least 20 books cover to cover, having spoken to big-time teachers and experts over long and short periods of time, having run my own forum and collected my own data, etc; but in order to entertain this misunderstanding, I am currently looking through internet sources and find a single credible source which claims 4w5s have more fears of being incompetent than 4w3s. If anything, many claim that 4w3s have more fear of being seen as incompetent. I am only here to clear up this notion, because I think it is important for newcomers to the forum to know that not everyone accepts the idea that 4w5s have more fears of being incompetent.. least of all, any enneagram writers or teachers that I can find.


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## Animal

Searched out some more sources on this topic. I'll share some results.

Fauvres:
Enneagram Type 4: The Romantic Individualist

In order to write this book (which I own), the Fauvres developed deep methods to test people's types, and adjusted those methods due to actual, real experience with different types. They also collected data: asked people who have been typed to fill out forms answering questions on all of the topics listed here, to see how each type experienced that type in their own words, rather than through the eyes of an author who is another type. They admit that no method is PERFECT to determine someone's type, but theirs has been carefully considered, as Condon's has. Condon's writing is also based on similar, real life data collected from type X.

Fauvres - On 4 in general, based on things that 4s actually SAID. All 4s. Not just 4w3.


> Need
> You need be seen as artistic, gifted and *accomplished*. You focus on your individuality and on *carving your own distinct image*. You *need to express your deep feelings* and *want others to validate your emotions*. Whether you are organizing your living space to reflect your refined tastes or engaging in an artistic pursuit, *it is essential for your sense of well being that you express your creativity*.





> You want to be gifted, intuitive, original and unique. More importantly, you want to be passionate, true to your feelings and uniquely authentic. You see yourself as sensitive, expressive and spiritual. You would like others to see you as idealistic, emotionally deep and compassionate. *Your idealized image is that you are accomplished and special.*




https://www.integrative9.com/enneagram/27-subtypes/

Re: Type 4, Sx (either wing)



> *ONE-ON-ONE*
> 
> 
> 
> *SUBTYPE KEY: COMPETITION*
> 
> This Four subtype is intense and vocal about their needs and feelings and are often described as ‘*more shameless than shameful’ and mistype with Three and Eight.* They tend to be *demanding and competitive, escaping suffering by being the best in what they do.* Demanding that others appreciate their needs may lead to a cycle of rejection, frustration and anger. Their ability to express these feelings of demand and anger may mask how sad or confused they really feel.


(This is perfectly in line with my mistyping at both 3 and 8, and also, my quote about 'I am my work' - specifically my personal expressive, artistic work rather than a job - on the 3 forum.)

Naranjo, Character & Neurosis.
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...ranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-4-a.html



> Strong Superego
> 
> Refinement is perhaps the most characteristic of ways in which* ennea-type IV seeks to be better than he or she is, and in doing so exercises discipline*. More generally there is a typically strong superego that the type IV character shares with type I, but on the whole, type IV is more keenly aware of his or her standards and his or her ego ideal is more aesthetic than ethical. Along with discipline (which may reach a masochistic degree)* the superego characteristic of ennea-type IV involves descriptors of tenacity and of being rule-oriented*. Love of ceremony reflects both the aesthetic-refined and the rule-oriented characteristics. A strong super ego is, of course, involved in the guilt propensity of ennea-type IV, in its shame, self-hate, and self denigration.


The Fauvres, Condon and many others have noticed that 4s want to be seen as accomplished. This explains it: the 4 super-ego about wanting to be better than they are (envy) and wanting to be disciplined, tenacious etc. Their accomplishments are proof that the 4 is closer to their 'idealized self.' When those accomplishments are primarily oriented around personal expression, art projects and the like (as mine are), it's simply 4. 4w5 or 4w3.

As stated in the same description:


> Artistic Interests
> 
> The characteristic inclination of ennea-type IV towards the arts is over-determined: at least one of its roots lies in the refined characteristic of envious character. It is supported too, by the feeling-centered disposition of the type. Other components are the possibility of idealizing pain through art and even transmuting it—to the extent that it becomes an element in the configuration of beauty.


Naranjo also comments on the need to be admired and appreciated and beautiful, and how it comes BEFORE needing to be competent or deep... for ALL FOURS, with either wing, as it is central to the type as an image type.


> Competitive Arrogance
> 
> Connected to a hateful emotionality, an attitude of superiority sometimes exists along with —and in compensation for—a bad self-image. Though the individual may seethe in self-deprecation and self-hate, the attitude to the outer world is in this case that of a “prima-donna” or at least a very special person. When this claim of specialness is frustrated it may be complicated by a victimized role of “misunderstood genius.” *In line with this development, individuals also develop traits of wit, interesting conversation, and others in which a natural disposition towards imaginativeness, analysis, or emotional depth (for instance) are secondarily put to the service of the contact need and the desire to summon admiration*.


In other words, the automatic impulse to summon admiration (ie 'self promote') even before having emotional depth, analysis or imaginativeness... is present in ALL fours. Five wing does not eliminate this. That is not to say the 4s don't also have those other traits, but the need to be admired is paramount; comes before competency and even emotional depth or analysis. Hence, image type.

Condon: 4w3 and 4w5 and their subtyes themes

Condon on wings.


> Fours - Fine Distinctions
> Four With a 3 Wing
> Fours with a 3 wing can sometimes seem like Sevens. May be outgoing, have a sense of humor and style. Prize being both creative and effective in the world. Both intuitive and ambitious; may have good imaginations, often talented. Some are colorful, fancy dressers, make a distinct impression. Self-knowledge combines well with social and organizational skills.
> When more entranced, often have a public/private split. Could conceal feelings in public then go home to loneliness. Or they could enjoy their work and be dissatisfied in love. Tendency towards melodrama and flamboyance; true feelings can often be hidden. Competitive, sneaky, aware of how they look. Some have bad taste. May be fickle in love, drawn to romantic images that they have projected onto others. Could have a dull spouse, then fantasize about glamorous strangers. Achievements can be tainted by jealousy, revenge, or a desire to prove the crowd wrong.
> Real-Life Fours With a 3 Wing: John Barrymore, Kate Bush, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Judy Collins, Neil Diamond, Judy Garland, Martha Graham, Billie Holliday, Julio Iglesias, Janis Joplin, Naomi Judd, Jessica Lange, John Malkovich, Mary McCarthy, Rod McKuen, Anaïs Nin, Nick Nolte, Laurence Olivier, Edith Piaf, Anne Rice, Liv Ullmann, Robert James Waller, Tennessee Williams.
> Movie Fours With a 3 Wing: F. Murray Abraham, Amadeus; Anne Bancroft, The Turning Point; John Barrymore, Dinner At Eight; Judy Davis, Impromptu; Jill Ireland, From Noon Til Three; Vivien Leigh, A Streetcar Named Desire; Winona Ryder, Mermaids.
> 
> 
> Four With a 5 Wing
> Healthy side of this wing brings a withdrawn, complex creativity. May be somewhat intellectual but have exceptional depth of feeling and insight. Very much their own person; original and idiosyncratic. Have a spiritual and aesthetic openness. Will find multiple levels of meaning to most events. May have a strong need and ability to pour themselves into artistic creations. Loners; can seem enigmatic and hard to read. Externally reserved and internally resonant. When they open up it can be sudden and total.
> When entranced or defensive, Fours with a 5 wing can easily feel alienated and depressed. Many have a sense of not belonging, of being from another planet. Can get lost in their own process, drown in their own ocean. Whiny - tend to ruminate and relive past experience. Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment. May live within a private mythology of pain and loss. Can get deeply morbid and fall in love with death.
> Real-Life Fours With a 5 Wing: Diane Arbus, Marlon Brando, Richard Brautigan, Jackson Browne, Kurt Cobain, Leonard Cohen, Isak Dinesen, Pink Floyd, Harvey Keitel, Philip Larkin, Thomas Merton, Sylvia Plath, Edgar Allen Poe, Arthur Rimbaud, Anne Sexton, James Taylor, Vincent van Gogh, Virginia Woolf, Neil Young.
> Movie Fours With a 5 Wing: David Andrews, Cherry 2000; Albert Finney, The Playboys; Claude Rains, The Phantom Of The Opera; Winona Ryder, Beetlejuice; Campbell Scott, Dying Young; Meryl Streep, The French Lieutenant's Woman, Out Of Africa, Plenty.


I won't get too deep into discussing my view on the differences or what I relate to, because my type isn't up for discussion and this is a typing thread. But, I just want to point out that nowhere does it say 4w5s have a thing about competency and are any less concerned with their image. The Phantom of the Opera- who I have referenced all over this forum and as a child, who I related to even at age 8.... STRONGLY..... is typed here at 4w5. Agree or disagree, but Condon obviously has no problem seeing him, as well as other imagey and dramatic 4s, as 4w5s.



> Intimate
> Fours with this theme tend to be highly competitive in close relationships but also more generally. With a mate they are prone to jealousy. Want to be the most important person in mate's life. Could be jealous of a partner's past relationships, maybe want to be the only person the partner has ever loved. Related to the dependent side of 2.
> *More broadly can be consumed by professional envy. Long to best others in their work. Can jealously measure their contributions. Petty about keeping score. Want recognition for their uniqueness. *Take away from successes of others when threatened. See F. Murray Abraham in Amadeus, Harriet Andersson in Cries And Whispers, Nick Nolte in New York Stories.


I have voiced my own protests about "what does Sx have to do with competitive professionally?" -- that said, I've always claimed to relate to it since my first post on the topic. Again, the 'work' stuff and wanting to be recognized, flaunting, and so forth. Not wing related.


Type 4 - Enneagram

Tritypes are often seen as making a difference in how type presents. There are a million sites about this, and the Fauvres book is most renowned, but this is one example.




I shared this in my other posts on the 3 forum, but this is an amazing 4 description.

http://www.ninepointsmagazine.org/the-nine-styles-fours-tom-condon/

This explicitly explains how envy is based on self-deception and that lies at the root of four. Envy induces a necessity for a false image of yourself. Without a false, deceptive self-image, someone is not an image type or a 4. (That said, while the false self is the HANGUP for image types, it is also the premise for enneagram; that we cannot truly see ourselves, and enneagram helps us lift the veil.)

Anyway... Envy is absolutely tied to false self, self-deceit, identifying with deluded images, etc.



> Confused Feelings and Envy
> Fours are part of the trio of Enneagram styles who reject themselves, overidentify with roles and have trouble knowing how they really feel. Fours specifically reject their “normal” qualities in favor of playing a role of someone distinctive and unique. “Unique” could mean anything from being exceptionally accomplished to defective and unable to function.
> Some Fours, for example, report feeling like they are from another planet, as though they are victims of a cosmic paperwork error that caused them to be dropped here and accidentally raised as human. Life on earth is a form of exile and the Four feels like a perpetual expatriate who can never return to her home planet.
> Beneath this ostensibly sad storyline is a kind of vanity. The Four could be proud of their alienated plight. Being from another planet reinforces their sense of being special and exempts them from normal responsibilities. Extraterrestrials don’t have to pay taxes, for instance.
> A Four friend of mine, who lost his job teaching high school literature the same week his wife left him, sank into a depressive melancholy funk. For months he sat watching television all day. Whenever I talked to him he sounded genuinely depressed and could only repeat the same litany of complaints about how bad things were.
> One day, I heard a slightly different tone in his voice. He was complaining in the usual way but he sounded almost playful. I asked him: “Why do I suddenly feel like you’re starting to enjoy your situation?” After a pause he replied wryly, “Well, I do make a lovely shipwreck…”
> After early French anthropologists first studied native tribes in the South Pacific, they returned to France extolling the virtues of the islanders’ way of life. Many popular books and newspaper articles were written about the islanders, some recalling Rousseau’s book, The Noble Savage, which compared civilized man unfavorably with indigenous people. The anthropologists were praised and awarded for their work and the details of native culture gripped the imagination of the French public. The anthropologists theorized that modern Europeans were descended from people like the islanders, who had once lived more naturally and instinctively, in harmony with nature, uncorrupted by modern ways.
> Two years later the anthropologists sailed back to the South Seas and began to interview the natives in greater depth. They were surprised to learn that the islanders believed that they had descended from a people who once lived more naturally and instinctively, in harmony with nature, uncorrupted by modern ways.
> Fours control through envy. After rejecting the ordinary in themselves they compensate by internally comparing themselves with others who have qualities the Four lacks or believes he once had but lost. This induces a feeling of longing, a yearning for the unavailable that is not unlike the melancholy a lonely single person might experience on Valentine’s Day. Many people also feel this way in the autumn or during festive holidays or when they are homesick.
> Envy is more than just wishing you had, say, another person’s money. At bottom, it’s an unconscious desire to be another person, someone with qualities you lack. In Fours, this takes two forms: longing to be someone else or longing to be a fantasy version of yourself. In their book, The Wisdom of the Enneagram, authors Don Riso and Russ Hudson write perceptively about the Four’s Fantasy Self, a compensatory, sometimes grandiose version of someone a Four wishes they were. This Fantasy Self is designed to counter the Four’s sense of rejection; it is who the Four will someday be when he is truly lovable. The Four, in effect, envies himself.
> So a Four entering a new situation might look around and begin comparing herself to others, seeing them as “normal” and herself different and unique – but somehow lacking. Next, she internally rejects herself, telling herself, “I don’t belong here,” and begins to list her flaws to herself.
> Next, the Four starts to envy someone nearby who looks like the kind of person she “should” be. She might also see a married couple and envy what she thinks is their good life together. Or she could see someone attractive but unavailable and begin to wish that person loved her.
> The Four could feel that she has to justify her presence in the situation. She might then try to prove that she belongs there after all by adopting the behavior and appearance of someone “normal.” Or she could begin thinking about becoming her Fantasy Self – a being so redemptively unique and extraordinary that people in the group will have to accept her after all.
> Fours protect themselves with the defense mechanism of introjection, which means taking people inside you and relating to them in your imagination, thoughts and feelings. While we all introject others – our parents, for instance – Fours introject habitually and the capacity has a specific function within their psychology. A Four will introject a loved one or someone whom they have idealized and who is out of reach. Then the Four has a relationship with their fantasy of that person. The Four holds this imaginary person between himself and others, as a barrier, to protect against rejection. Meanwhile the Four feels the fantasy person to be present, as if comforting himself with an imaginary friend.


This post is excellent too.
http://personalitycafe.com/articles/4791-enneagram-triads.html



> Heart triad types have a lot of struggle with self-image issues. There tends to be a concern with the persona, and the real self can be subconsciously substituted with the persona that will get them the most approval. On the "On All Fours" mp3 that Katherine and David Fauvre put out, they state (quoting Thomas Condon, IIRC) "in order to be loved for who I am, I must pretend to be what I am not." This is the key struggle for image types. They experience love as conditional, and think that one's true self can't be loved, so they must "put on" a more acceptable persona.




About competency: 4 is not a competency type, nor is 4w5. 4, regardless of wing, is a reactive type. 3 and 5, the two possible wings for 4, are both competency types.



> The third type is the harmonic groups. These are:
> 
> Positive outlook: 2, 7, 9
> Reactive: 4,6,8
> Competency: 1, 3,5,


More about this here:
http://theenneagraminbusiness.com/t...g-competency-triad-differentiating-questions/



> Commentary: “There are several triangles or groupings of three on the Enneagram, and 1, 3 and 5 are part of the Competency Trio or Triad. What that means is that for these three Enneagram types, feeling competent and being perceived and treated as competent by others is centrally important to them. This doesn’t mean that these three types are more competent than the other six types, just that it matters to them so much.”
> Question: “Is feeling competent and being treated or perceived as competent extremely important to you?”
> Response patterns: Most 1s, 3s and 5s give an instantaneous affirmative response, both verbally and non-verbally. They may or may not give examples. Others who are not in this triad – and this is rare for people who have selected these three types in their yes typing card stack – will take more time to answer, ask a question to understand more of what is meant, or may say a weak yes but their body language does not match a strong yes. In other words, there may be a verbal or non-verbal hesitancy.
> With people who appear to be in the Competency Triad, I offer more commentary about the difference in what sort of competency is significant to them:
> Commentary: “Competency means something different to each of the three types. For Ones, competency is about getting things right and having the right answers and opinions. For Threes, competency is more about getting results and being treated with respect for what they have and can accomplish. For Fives, competency is more about what they know and their knowledge base.”
> 
> Question: “Given that feeling of competency and being perceived as such is so important to you, which of these three ways of defining competency matches your definition?”
> Response patterns: Most people who are 1s, 3s, or 5s can easily answer this question, and so their type becomes more clear. The exception to this has been someone who is any of these types, in which case their response is often a mixture of all three answers. Then I often help them explore other types. Another exception, however, is some self-preserving subtype Threes. This subtype of Three wants to get it right but right in the time they have available, not necessarily perfectly right as most Ones strongly prefer.
> In this case – that is to help discern whether the person is a self-preserving subtype Three or a One, there is a simple question to ask: “Would you rather be right or effective?” Ones almost always say right, most Threes say “effective,” and self-preserving Threes think about it a bit longer, but end up with “effective.”


In other words, type 1 is the type whose deepest shame will be around being 'wrong.' 5 has shame around lacking something in their knowledge base and 3 has shame around being ineffective... but neither of those are 4. Fours have a wing but that plays into their core type - which is reactive and has shame about being defective, inauthentic, not living up to their ideal image, etc. 

Between 5, 3, and 1, The only one who is a super-ego type is 1, and the 1s core fear is of being wrong or imperfect... so this is the type most likely to beat themselves up deeply for being wrong or imperfect, which includes being incompetent. The other competency types, 3 and 5, need to be competent in different ways, but the 3's compensation process is based in shame and creating an image of competence (which is a form of 'effectiveness') , and the 5's compensation process is around withdrawing from their feelings and their body and worldly experience to retreat to the mind and gain competency.

___



I could do this all day, but my point is, return to the basics. Re-evaluate the meaning of wings. Remember that a 4 is a 4. A 4 is an image type. An image type is concerned with how they are seen, identity and self-worth, primarily. And so forth.


@*Paradigm* - some more sources here, if you're interested.


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## Cracked Actor

I kindly ask for others who are tagging me/quoting me in this thread to not continue doing it if they're not asking for typing advice. If the point isn't to share an opinion on someone's type then there is no point for me to keep being brought back to this thread. As for anyone else who wants advice or an opinion, feel free to mention/quote me.


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## Maybe

The amount of times we've had to review this thread is ridiculous.

*sigh* *Closed for mod review.*


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## Maybe

Sorry for the delay, *thread reopened*.

Remember gently honest.


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## Krayfish

Hey does anyone think I'm a 974 sp/so rather than a 964 sp/so (or even a 17x sp/so at this point)? I seem to give off a 7 vibe to people for some reason and, despite feeling significantly introverted and being fairly cautious, I think a lot of my affinity for type 6 might have been due to probably having an anxiety disorder, being very sp heavy, and (assuming 9w1 sp/so was correct) disintegration of my core type. Any input, even if it's just resources comparing a 6/7 fix or the two tritypes would be helpful.


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## Gorgon

*pokes head around the corner* I’ve come to the realization with the help of @Animal that I’m sx 4w5 not sp 9w8. On another site, I’ve written how I experienced envy.

Mind you this was when I was typing at 9:



> One of the major reasons I mistyped at 4 was my envy. Though these days, I can’t say I can fully articulate the envy of 4, but one of the reasons why I was hesitant to type at 9 was due to my competitiveness and the overwhelming rage filled envy I’ve (and still to this day) I experienced. When I encounter someone who’s similar to myself but especially a much better version of myself, I want to destroy them. The hate and bloodlust I feel is indescribable. I’m just itching to annihilate them and snuff them out of existence. I can taste the blood in my mouth as I type this. It feels like an existential threat to my being. It’s as if my identity is being compromised, and I needed to reclaim my position. I needed to affirm my existence. I’ve always envied those who possessed a strong presence or had distinct talents, especially talents similar to my own. I’m sensitive to being seen and acknowledged which is something I’m ashamed to admit. But to me, it’s an acknowledgement of my existence, that I have a distinct presence. Envy and rage have always been driving forces for me. I love the competitive nature of envy since it reminds me of my place and motivates me to strive for better. It motivates me to give a damn. But at the same time, it eats me up from the inside. I relate very much to the 4’s passion for protest, and for a long time, my identity was wrapped up in what I hated about myself and others. Rage was my fuel and bitterness was my language. Disdain, resentment, vengeance, and sadism were poisonous yet powerful friends of mine. I remember as a teen and in my early 20s I used to carve up the words “ugly”, “pig”, “bitch”, and so on onto my body as a way to deal with my rage and envy. If I were these things, I might as well wear them, and incorporate them as part of my being. Ugly, pig, bitch, worthless, whore. I was nothing but these, and proudly so. I needed to get this out of my system, but I guess the point is that I do think the competitiveness, envy, and desire to be seen for 9 (thanks to that line to 3) is not discussed enough. Mainly though, I just needed to vent.


Another post:



> Envy almost feels like a demonic pulse that courses through me. It encapsulates, magnifies, and combines every negative emotion I experience. Anxiety turns into existential dread. Anger becomes murderous rage. Sadness transforms into despair. Shame is self-devouring self-hate. Insecurity feels like a house quickly collapsing. Envy fuels me, it underlines most things I do, but it can destroy from the inside out if I let it.
> 
> One thing I hated in the past was beauty, or the concept of beauty, regardless of how it was manifested. To give some context, I used to have terrible acne and more prominent acne scars. Beauty was the diametrically opposite of me. It was harmonious, safe, pleasing, and awe-inspiring. I was monstrous, rageful, destructive, repulsive, and grotesque. But I loved my ugliness because it was real and it came from a deep, even primordial, place within myself. Its lack of filter and gloss made you confront my ugliness and contend with it, and hopefully reminded you of the rottenness resides within in you. At the time, I saw beauty as deceptive, obscuring us from the hard and ugly truths of the world. But honestly, it’s in deception that the truth becomes more salient than if it was plainly revealed. The act of deception reveals a lot both of the one doing the deceiving and the truth one is attempting to hide. Anyways, i know beauty comes in all forms even in dark and grotesque forms, and it’s in collapsing these extremes together is where I find the most inspiration and insight.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Gorgon said:


> *pokes head around the corner* I’ve come to the realization with the help of @Animal that I’m sx 4w5 not sp 9w8. On another site, I’ve written how I experienced envy.
> 
> Mind you this was when I was typing at 9:
> 
> 
> 
> Another post:


I got chills. Ooh bae bae, dat angry envy tho.


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## goldthysanura

Gorgon said:


> *pokes head around the corner* I’ve come to the realization with the help of @Animal that I’m sx 4w5 not sp 9w8. On another site, I’ve written how I experienced envy.
> 
> Mind you this was when I was typing at 9:
> 
> 
> 
> Another post:


Very cool! I get envious of people too, but in a different way I think...I idealize people who I believe are better than me, and I block them out of my mind, because it makes me feel pain to think about them, as it reminds me of my own shortcomings. Instead of wanting to destroy them, I just...wish I were like them. I get a longing ache inside my heart when I'm envious, this strong feeling that I'm not being seen in the way the other person is, that I don't have what they have and so I can't ever be loved in the same way. But that envy never makes me competitive or angry, for better or worse, only achingly aware of how I don't measure up. Maybe I'd be happier if I got angry like you, because then I could channel that anger into self-improvement. On the other hand, maybe there's some way of channeling my own, non-angry feelings of envy into good things, in ways that I can't understand yet. Or maybe I am actually angry deep down and just don't wanna admit it to myself.

I totally agree with you about beauty. I'm attracted to unconventionally beautiful things that are surreal or dark, or just plain weird. As an example of the extremes of beauty, there are two reality shows in which drag queens compete with one another. The first is Rupaul's Drag Race, and the other is Dragula. Drag Race has some unconventional performers and looks, but at the end of the day the ideal put forth in that show is one of fashion, feminine beauty (even if it's outside of the norm), and a certain kind of comfortingly predictable commercial mainstream drag aesthetic. Dragula's ideal is to shake the viewer up rather than comfort them, to make them scared or grossed out in visceral ways...but a lot of the looks from queens on that show stick in my mind more, like one from last week by the queen Abhora. She had one baby doll head over each of her boobs, and shark-like prosthetic teeth. She described herself as "the mother who takes instead of gives." There is something beautiful in a nightmarish concept like that. It's beautiful because it's jarring, and because the darkness of the idea contrasts so well with its refined, detail-oriented execution. If something is only beautiful with nothing dark or rough or unpredictable about it, it can seem boring to me. what I want is something that I remember, even if it's freaky. That's how I see beauty.


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## Rose for a Heart

Gorgon said:


> But at the same time, it eats me up from the inside. I relate very much to the 4’s passion for protest, and for a long time, my identity was wrapped up in what I hated about myself and others. Rage was my fuel and bitterness was my language. Disdain, resentment, vengeance, and sadism were poisonous yet powerful friends of mine. I remember as a teen and in my early 20s I used to carve up the words “ugly”, “pig”, “bitch”, and so on onto my body as a way to deal with my rage and envy. If I were these things, I might as well wear them, and incorporate them as part of my being. Ugly, pig, bitch, worthless, whore. I was nothing but these, and proudly so. I needed to get this out of my system, but I guess the point is that I do think the competitiveness, envy, and desire to be seen for 9 (thanks to that line to 3) is not discussed enough. Mainly though, I just needed to vent.


Just wanted to say that I relate to what you wrote. I think *hate *would be too strong a word to describe how I feel about myself now, but in the past...and not that long ago, I _was_ like this. I have also hurt myself, and yes, carved "UGLY" on my thigh. Then re-carved it at least twice from what I remember. I would hurt myself in other ways too but honestly I am glad I haven't in at least 2 years, and I don't think I will. 

I don't think I hate myself anymore. It's mostly just sadness and insecurity. 



> But I loved my ugliness because it was real and it came from a deep, even primordial, place within myself. Its lack of filter and gloss made you confront my ugliness and contend with it, and hopefully reminded you of the rottenness resides within in you. At the time, I saw beauty as deceptive, obscuring us from the hard and ugly truths of the world. But honestly, it’s in deception that the truth becomes more salient than if it was plainly revealed. The act of deception reveals a lot both of the one doing the deceiving and the truth one is attempting to hide. Anyways, i know beauty comes in all forms even in dark and grotesque forms, and it’s in collapsing these extremes together is where I find the most inspiration and insight.


It's hard to love these parts of you. I mean, it's incredibly difficult. But it's only through the suicidal crises I seem to go through every few months, that I have been able to see that others do indeed love me (it has nothing to do with them, it's just something that shifts inside me) - even though that's not the love I have always wanted. I crave romantic love more than anything. I want that intimacy badly. But yes, I have and still do, feel that my insides are ugly. That every time I spill my guts out, it's scary and rotten. That I am rotten to the core. It's a very slow and painful process to remedy this.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

-


----------



## Turi

Krayfish said:


> Hey does anyone think I'm a 974 sp/so rather than a 964 sp/so (or even a 17x sp/so at this point)? I seem to give off a 7 vibe to people for some reason and, despite feeling significantly introverted and being fairly cautious, I think a lot of my affinity for type 6 might have been due to probably having an anxiety disorder, being very sp heavy, and (assuming 9w1 sp/so was correct) disintegration of my core type. Any input, even if it's just resources comparing a 6/7 fix or the two tritypes would be helpful.


I question whether your head type is 5. 
Is 954 a thing?

Sorry I can't be of more help, I don't know much about Enneagram.


I'm happy for anyone who can be bothered to dispute any part of my 5w4 sx/sp typing.


----------



## Temizzle

Turi said:


> I'm happy for anyone who can be bothered to dispute any part of my 5w4 sx/sp typing.


Happily. Give me some fuel. What makes you doubt the typing for yourself?


----------



## Krayfish

I did type as 5 core for a while, so you could be right about it being a 5 fix rather than a 6 or 7 fix. I kind of can relate to all of the head fixes to a degree (although most of my relation to 7 is purely negative). I don’t think I’m quite withdrawn to be a triple withdrawn type though. If i do have a 5 fix then I’d probably change my heart fix to a 3 or a 2.

Also I think there is a chance you might be a 5w6 sp/sx rather than a 5w4 sx/sp, but I could be completely off


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## Paradigm

Turi said:


> Is 954 a thing?


Yeah, definitely a thing. It's also by far the most common mistype, as anyone who is even minutely asocial and/or introspective thinks they're a 459. (When speaking about a general tritype, order matters less.)



> I'm happy for anyone who can be bothered to dispute any part of my 5w4 sx/sp typing.


I lean 6w5 for you, because of my Ni, but I guess 5w6 might work. You have that "critical of everything ever," contrarian vibe many 6w5s throw off. 

SX/SP also seems off - you seem a bit SOC (though not necessarily SOC-first) - but I have even fewer reasons to think that than I do 6w5, so may as well stick with SX/SP until you do more reading, I suppose.


----------



## Paradigm

Krayfish said:


> Hey does anyone think I'm a 974 sp/so rather than a 964 sp/so (or even a 17x sp/so at this point)? I seem to give off a 7 vibe to people for some reason and, despite feeling significantly introverted and being fairly cautious, I think a lot of my affinity for type 6 might have been due to probably having an anxiety disorder, being very sp heavy, and (assuming 9w1 sp/so was correct) disintegration of my core type. Any input, even if it's just resources comparing a 6/7 fix or the two tritypes would be helpful.


I actually know a 794 SX-last, though I'm afraid I lack a 469 to compare it to. (I know a couple 269s, but I imagine they're rather different.) There's the tritype description thread, but their 479 description _really_ sucks and the 469 isn't much better.

I'd think a 469 is more doubting of, well, everything; a 479 would be more willing to put words into action. Both are hesitant to make decisions. A 479 is more likely to avoid negative matters than a 469 would be - the 7 and 9 act together in tandem to avoid them. I imagine a 469 would be more of a problem solver, and while there is the Assertive influence of 7 it can get lost in the aforementioned "ostrich sticking its head in sand" reaction. Following this, the 479 would be relatively far more positive than a 469 ('cause *79), yet both can be "grounded" or "realistic."

To compare myself to the 794 I know, I'm more critical and more vocal about my frustrations... But then again, I'm just a 614 (which... 6 is that way anyway, and 146 is said to be the most critical tritype, so...). I do get surprised, still, when the 794 (for him) "unusually" deep since his 7 and 9 stand out the most; he has good insights into both himself and the why/how people react. That could also be part SOC, as well.


----------



## Krayfish

Paradigm said:


> I actually know a 794 SX-last, though I'm afraid I lack a 469 to compare it to. (I know a couple 269s, but I imagine they're rather different.) There's the tritype description thread, but their 479 description _really_ sucks and the 469 isn't much better.
> 
> I'd think a 469 is more doubting of, well, everything; a 479 would be more willing to put words into action. Both are hesitant to make decisions. A 479 is more likely to avoid negative matters than a 469 would be - the 7 and 9 act together in tandem to avoid them. I imagine a 469 would be more of a problem solver, and while there is the Assertive influence of 7 it can get lost in the aforementioned "ostrich sticking its head in sand" reaction. Following this, the 479 would be relatively far more positive than a 469 ('cause *79), yet both can be "grounded" or "realistic."
> 
> To compare myself to the 794 I know, I'm more critical and more vocal about my frustrations... But then again, I'm just a 614 (which... 6 is that way anyway, and 146 is said to be the most critical tritype, so...). I do get surprised, still, when the 794 (for him) "unusually" deep since his 7 and 9 stand out the most; he has good insights into both himself and the why/how people react. That could also be part SOC, as well.


Ah I see. I tried reading the tritype descriptions a while ago and felt pretty iffy when looking at both of them. I'm probably not 7 then. I'm optimistic but probably not avoident of negativity enough to qualify as someone with a 7 fix. I'm pretty uncertain all the time so if I don't end up having 5 in my stack I'll probably stick to 964.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I am coming back to the topic of the sexual instinct because my friend is extremely convincing in how she's certain she sees this instinct in me a lot more than social, and I haven't yet understood why romantic rejection does, what it does to me. My life revolves around it! And sure, everyone wants to be loved, but not everyone spends the entirely of their life, while awake or asleep, seeking this profound intimacy and closeness with someone they love. And that to be rejected that intimacy - I cannot take it. I honestly cannot. I have never faced a single rejection, that is, looked it in the eyes and said, "that's ok, I am still ok." I could never do that. I went into denial that I was really going through this pain and hastily buried it as I got consumed by the next obsession. Seeking this love rules my life. And I want to understand why. Which is why delving into enneagram instincts is no longer just a fun thing for me, it could hold the key for my very core issues that I have never completely understood. I do know that forums can have certain biases or prevalent attitudes about any type, which may not actually be representative of everyone of that type. However, I guess I still want to explore it here. 

As for Naranjo's explanation of types, it seems he was pretty far off for Sexual 4. His description doesn't actually hold true for all sexual 4s. In fact, I cannot honestly see an INFP SX 4 who is like what he describes. Sure there is a certain aggressiveness associated with the sexual instinct, but it's in seeking intimacy that they [those driven by the sexual instinct] become "aggressive," not necessarily what is colloquially aggressive, such as anger and competitive nature. Although of course, where there is jealousy, there is competition. But I almost always assume I suck so much there's no way I could possibly be better than the girl I am competing with. I have an absolutely non-existent self-esteem. I have met someone pretty much exactly like me, and he was a sexual first too. 

All of my complexes and issues are tied to this. It is undeniable that romantic also implies partly sexual, and that this kind of rejection has been and will be the death of me. I don't even know if I am capable of taking it. All other kinds of love I_ don't think I really need._ But this, I absolutely do.

I honestly find the social instinct alien. I only typed at SO 4 because Naranjo's description was spot on for me. Otherwise I can't relate to Social at all. I have also never experienced true bonding or intimacy with anyone, so my explanation of what I am seeking may come across as immature or not fully developed as compared to a Sexual first who has actually experienced it. There's much of Sexual first I don't relate to, but overall I relate to it _a lot more_ than the social instinct.

All that being said, it's simply possible I don't fit very neatly into the system.


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## d e c a d e n t

Rose for a Heart said:


> I honestly find the social instinct alien. I only typed at SO 4 because Naranjo's description was spot on for me. Otherwise I can't relate to Social at all. I have also never experienced true bonding or intimacy with anyone, so my explanation of what I am seeking may come across as immature or not fully developed as compared to a Sexual first who has actually experienced it. There's much of Sexual first I don't relate to, but overall I relate to it _a lot more_ than the social instinct.
> 
> All that being said, it's simply possible I don't fit very neatly into the system.


I'd say it depends on why you relate to it too. I was looking at the 4 subtypes earlier. Out of the three I found the Social 4 to be most relatable (Self-Pres 4 not at all), but then I'm not sure if the things I can relate to are for actual Social 4 reasons. So then it's a matter of, well, why is that Social 4? Like the reasoning behind it, which I don't think Naranjo goes into much, though Beatrice Chestnut did expand on them. 

(Anyway, part of why I was looking at them is because I'm frustrated over my heart-fix)


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## Asd456

Rose for a Heart said:


> And sure, everyone wants to be loved, but not everyone spends the entirely of their life, while awake or asleep, seeking this profound intimacy and closeness with someone they love. And that to be rejected that intimacy - I cannot take it. I honestly cannot. I have never faced a single rejection, that is, looked it in the eyes and said, "that's ok, I am still ok." I could never do that. I went into denial that I was really going through this pain and hastily buried it as I got consumed by the next obsession. Seeking this love rules my life. And I want to understand why. Which is why delving into enneagram instincts is no longer just a fun thing for me, it could hold the key for my very core issues that I have never completely understood.


As a Sexual 6 I understand this to a degree, especially seeking intimacy and closeness. I used to think the Sx energy pertained to my other interests as well and perhaps this is still true but I'm slowly changing my opinion that Sx is more about the reciprocal intimacy and closeness.

Some people think stacking is more significant compared to type and in some ways I agree.



Rose for a Heart said:


> As for Naranjo's explanation of types, it seems he was pretty far off for Sexual 4.


I do not agree with Naranjo's Sexual 6 100%. The issue is I think it should be broken down further (Sexual 6 = Sx/So 6 and Sx/Sp 6, Sexual 4 = Sx/So 4 and Sx/Sp 4, etc.) so it's fine if you think Naranjo or Chestnut missed a few key areas.


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## Rose for a Heart

I have come more and more to the conclusion that sexual instinct explains a lot about me. Everything that I have been missing and that no "type concerned with love" could fully explain. I am angry at myself for missing something so obvious, because I elevated those with sexual instinct to being better able to get who they want, than I am capable of. That, and other reasons. And the fact that the obvious bias/misinformation sway me towards Social instead of sexual when the truth is I couldn't care less about the social stuff. If you really want to see what a social first looks like, they are concerned 24/7 with their belonging in any group or community. They are consumed by it - something I am not and will never be. Your primary instinct will be a very touchy and painful spot. I feel exactly that way with the sexual instinct. For the first time in my life this puzzle piece is shifting into its correct place. 

I have avoided discussing how bad my issues really are regarding this instinct because, again, it makes me vulnerable in a way I don't want to be, and exposes something unattractive about me which as you can understand is scary. I have been told my entire life I am "way too emotional" about guys. People don't get why I am like that, why I can't "process rejection in a healthy way." [deleted] And no social of security (SP) concern was capable of triggering me anything close to the way this stuff did. They don't even really bother me, and I am not passionate about them. Social firsts truly care and spend great amount of time talking about, well, social causes or happenings they are concerned with, or just this general sense of them putting a lot of effort to truly belong and caring about that immensely. 

I obviously don't have that. I focus on one thing, and that's it at that time. Social topics bore me usually although sometimes they can be interesting. [deleted]. I am not exaggerating that all my issues, all my suicidality, my self-harm, my invalidation issues, my issues with love - that are all tied to this! And this finally completes the puzzle. It all makes sense now. 

Maybe I don't relate to SX firsts because I have never actually had what it is I seek! [deleted] I don't believe I am good enough to get what I need when it comes to fulfilling this instinct, and it's really killing me. Maybe that's why I throw people off when it comes to determining my instinct, because I relate to it so negatively. That is, I cannot fulfill and am absolutely not even close to good enough to get what I need. If you have that fucked up a relationship to your primary instinct you would be very messed up. I perhaps resort to my secondary social instinct a lot more than I would otherwise.

These are some descriptions I thought I related to pretty well, feel free to comment on that: 


> Sexual/Social
> 
> This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself,* but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from* relationship to relationship,* seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly* and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype *has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct*. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with* their lust for life and desire for passionate experience*, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.


Sexual moves to Social


> *The sexual subtype (one on one) will seek the greater world or social arena to find a desired mate. The sexual subtype is normally happy tucked away in a secluded setting with one significant other. However, when alone or in search of a mate, this subtype will behave much more like the social subtype. One must be with others to find ?the other? Once the mate is selected, the social activity will be replaced by the dominant drive for time spent in union with the other one on one.* At first the sexual subtype may spend time with the potential mate in the company of others. *They become a pair even in groups. Then when the passion for deeper connection is ignited the sexual subtype will want to bond totally with their desired other. When the mate is determined, the sexual subtypewill return to one on one style of relating. Ideally, this is intense time spent with the desired other or mate. An area of pain and disappointment for this subtype is when they have a mate that is unwilling to pay attention to their degree of connection and intimately share their deepest and innermost thoughts.*


Bolded is what I relate to.


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## Dangerose

Daeva said:


> So then, here we go...
> Shooting stars are cosmic stuff (stuff!!!! how scientific!) that come crashing down onto earth and burn up in the atmosphere. The burning gives them the bright tail. They are meteors. Most burn up and don't make it, but some do and they actually hit the earth, causing a good ton of damage and bringing whatever materials from "out there" with it.
> 
> Sounds familiar? I'll give you a tip: insemination.


My username actually is a reference to metaphorical comet sex so I am with you :laughing:


> Sx/So is Sp last. I know an Sx/So 8 who travels the world coaching people and teaching them his martial arts. He's a travelling monk (the eastern badass kind) with native american heritage who dresses like a rockstar and plays synthesizer and performs with people. He does well for himself, but he avoids having a home. He is a shooting star alright.


I'm not trying to quibble and I know you're just describing a person but 80% of this is just hype stuff or irrelevant, does his Native American heritage make him more of a shooting star? What if he were boring Western monk? Does synthesizer make you a shooting star? :star: 






And this makes sense:



> Impregnating the world with his essence, wherever he goes.


I get what you mean, and this is description of one person, sure, but it's kinda what I don't like about comet/flamenco thing, most people aren't travelling monks, I didn't think that was a thing lol, so it feels like overblown description that sets up false expectation that sx will be magical fountain of unlimited badassery - it doesn't sound like something most people (or at least I) can recognize in actual life, if someone isn't walking into the room with a gold confetti falling from the ceiling and a string of tall tales behind them

And...well, I get that sx is the 'up to eleven' instinct in some ways so it makes sense but I don't think it gets close to internal experience of the type and it creates an odd mythos that...yeah


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## Dangerose

(understand that I'm contractually obligated by who I am as a person to post sitcom clips if I see an opportunity and it was less mocking than it came across)


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## Rose for a Heart

Sx/So is not necessarily bold and "bad-ass" or whatever. I really don't relate to or like the images this is being associated with it, but I didn't comment because truth is these images don't represent several SX-firsts real personas, or even "internal experience" as @Nissa Nissa pointed out. Where's the subtle gracefulness and beauty? That is something I have personally associated with Sx/So. Think vintage Hollywood heroines. I have always been attracted to the...era and images from it, and now I see they represent Sx/So. Point being though, it's all _personal _choices. I am sick of the way Sexual 4s are represented because I know for a fact they don't represent all SX 4s, in fact a significant chunk of them are probably not represented in these descriptions. Same goes for Sx/So I suppose. 

I think the "flamenco dancer, shooting star" images were to make a point about the massive energy Sx/So can discharge into it's environment, leaving people no choice but to notice them. They are not particularly inconspicuous. Now, I am an introvert. I am shy, quiet and often awkward. So I don't "unleash" myself that easily onto my environment, but when I do, I realize now I may drown out or overpower others, without meaning to. I just get so incredibly absorbed in whatever it is I am passionate about at the moment, so obsessed with it that anyone who is not SX-first will find it excessive and unreasonable. But I cannot help unleashing that much energy, when I do get charged and excited about something. 

That being said, there's also the fact that SX-firsts want to be seen as attractive and powerful in the sense they want to captivate you. So that essence is certainly embodied in "flamenco dancer, shooting star" etc. but of course, it is a point of (less than healthy) fixation after all and the I can promise you that the unhealthy side of it is human, frail, painful and not glamorous.


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## Paradigm

@Signorina Misteriosa
Okay, I get what you're saying a bit more now. Maybe what you and @Remnants are feeling might be from SOC-mid? Paraphrasing, but the instinct thread says the mid instinct can be "ignored" for a while, but tends to still be a concern. I do think all instincts, regardless of position, are concerns. It just depends on how much of a concern it is.



Remnants said:


> Yeah, it's like... say, being an outcast. That's still a type of social identity. And I've never experiences myself like that even though I've never really "fit in" or any of that stuff, but...


(Sorry, I know it's annoying to be tagged and quoted in one post.)

This is an incredibly good point, and one I think many overlook or assume it's only SOC 4 who can feel this way. Really, any subculture is inherently SOC, even if it's an "outcast" subculture. Building an _identity _around it... I'm not sure I would call that SOC-first, but it's really close, which is why I'm wondering if it's more a SOC-mid thing. I'm mostly basing that off of how I don't really have an "identity," though; like, people often assume I should identify as part of the disabled culture, or just as plain disabled... Which, I never deny it's part of who I am, but nothing, including my disability, is _defining_ of who I am, it's all just parts. Idk how common this view is, though, or if it's even a SOC-last thing.



Immolate said:


> It would seem social-lasts are homebodies with private dungeons.


With cats, tho.


----------



## Daeva

Nissa Nissa said:


> My username actually is a reference to metaphorical comet sex so I am with you :laughing:
> 
> I'm not trying to quibble and I know you're just describing a person but 80% of this is just hype stuff or irrelevant, does his Native American heritage make him more of a shooting star? What if he were boring Western monk? Does synthesizer make you a shooting star? :star:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this makes sense:
> 
> I get what you mean, and this is description of one person, sure, but it's kinda what I don't like about comet/flamenco thing, most people aren't travelling monks, I didn't think that was a thing lol, so it feels like overblown description that sets up false expectation that sx will be magical fountain of unlimited badassery - it doesn't sound like something most people (or at least I) can recognize in actual life, if someone isn't walking into the room with a gold confetti falling from the ceiling and a string of tall tales behind them
> 
> And...well, I get that sx is the 'up to eleven' instinct in some ways so it makes sense but I don't think it gets close to internal experience of the type and it creates an odd mythos that...yeah


Of course I'm hyping the shit out of it, otherwise it wouldn't have the same effect would it? =D

My point is that these people exist and they really do stand out a ton. I get that you want a description of the instincts that is more relatable in an every day type of living experience, but those descriptions already exist. So I don't quite understand the complaints. The (rather bland, but) good information is already there. There really isn't much mystery to the instincts. It's all very straight forward.

Yes the descriptions from that site are crazy and theatrical and Yes, they are way off into concept land and Yes, the ridicule is deserved, but whatever. Plenty of people of these stackings do exist, enough of em to note the crazy pattern. I see little wrong with that really. I think it's a nice breeze from the boring as all hell descriptions that you usually find. Are those more helpful? 100%. Are they tedious and do they make my brain ache from boredom? 100%. And again, my point was that the description isn't even that inaccurate. The way I'm looking at it, it's all relative anyway. And one person on their own isn't going to be a "shooting star," no that's true, but compared to their tedious neighbour? You can be damn sure they are.

It is all relative and conceptual crazy off beat musings, written with the purpose of making an impact - more than being accurate or factual. Written to paint a picture. Goal achieved? I would say so! With descriptions like those, it is *never* about the individual and specific word used. It is about the current of the stream that carries the thought, the idea of said word in context of the other words, and that points towards the eternal and all-applying pull of what all of this is about.

Sx/So is using the social element to go forth and against in order to leave something of yourself behind in the other and to have the other leave something of them behind in you, with a blindspot of preserving any amounts of energy or having a sense grounding. What do the concepts of "shooting star" and "flamenco dancer" have in common? Exactly that! Burn bright, burn hard.


And yes, my friend having native american heritage gives him magic. That's common knowledge duh! Painting a picture to drive the point home. It's why I type at Fe.

Oh, and absolutely _nothing_ I say is irrelevant.


----------



## randomshoes

Paradigm said:


> I'm mostly basing that off of how I don't really have an "identity," though; like, people often assume I should identify as part of the disabled culture, or just as plain disabled... Which, I never deny it's part of who I am, but nothing, including my disability, is _defining_ of who I am, it's all just parts. Idk how common this view is, though, or if it's even a SOC-last thing.


For what it's worth I feel this way too, so it is possible it's a soc last thing. I'm sort of perplexed by any concept of my identity that goes beyond "me." However, I am also heart type last as, I notice, are you, so that may be a contributing factor? 

Food for thought, anyway.


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## d e c a d e n t

@*Paradigm*
I'm not building an identity around anything, or I never said that I am, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about.


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## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> @*Signorina Misteriosa*
> Okay, I get what you're saying a bit more now. Maybe what you and @*Remnants* are feeling might be from SOC-mid? Paraphrasing, but the instinct thread says the mid instinct can be "ignored" for a while, but tends to still be a concern. I do think all instincts, regardless of position, are concerns. It just depends on how much of a concern it is.


Well, usually the secondary instinct is described as a sort of "comfort-zone" though as I've said before, I'm not sure how true that is.

And that's what I'm saying. I don't feel like I ignore _any _of them, or feel totally disinterested in any of them, which is why blindspot is confusing, since I don't experience any instinct that way.


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## Dangerose

Hm, wonder if building an identity around something is more attachment type, anyways...(combined with social instinct)

I'm not sure/established in my type enough yet to go around saying 'as social 7' but as social 7, I feel like I am perhaps more gluttonous and loath to commit to one particular identity  like it's dumb and partly just learning device but there's part of me that likes to invent fake memories if I had grown up in a particular culture, and well, I love learning about culture, countries, etc., getting into heart of what makes it what it is, then there is part of me that feels invested in that, like I'm not Bavarian and I don't identify as Bavarian lol but I love Bavaria a little, I could more if I applied myself better, so it is part of me in a way, like collecting fragments of culture

But I don't consider it part of my identity, nor like...real things

Or it's a specific phenomenon of Internet culture but I'm not sort of person to identify as 'Whovian' or whatever, even if I loved that show and read the memes or whatever :laughing: it's very odd for me to translate an interest into an identity, even if something is part of who I am, feel like that's a meaningful distinction

Trying to think of example that would be more relevant, like there aren't so many things that are obviously who I am that people would be like 'why aren't you in the x community?' 'why don't you identify as x?'but it's not a way I'm liable to think of things

Sometimes people mistake it though, always throws me off guard

I'm not 'things you experience when you're ----' person, even though I frequently google 'you know you're ---- when' to see what people experience as part of their identity or...shared experience, so it's different, difference sounds subtle but it's that...I like looking at world from different perspectives, and try to fine-tune and understand that perception, I think it enriches my life and helps me understand the world better and deeper, to shift and understand perceptions of life, the unique perspectives (not opinion-perspectives, viewing perspectives), it's all about experience and understanding, not identity

So it's probably 7 and Ne more than anything

(really tired, trying to force my sleep schedule back into place by not sleeping, so if I'm just weird grandfather in corner talking about irrelevant subject...idk deal with it)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> Hm, wonder if building an identity around something is more attachment type, anyways...(combined with social instinct)


I would think that "identity" is more of an image-concern, though, but perhaps.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Remnants said:


> Well, usually the secondary instinct is described as a sort of "comfort-zone" though as I've said before, I'm not sure how true that is.


Only you can ultimately determine what works for you, but from what I know about the instincts, the first is the point of "neurosis" or excessive fixation compared to the others. This is the instinct you stress out over, and feel that your survival is threatened if the needs of this one are not met. It can probably easily cause mental illnesses if you can't get needs met for it at all. The second is more of a "comfort zone," but that's not to say it doesn't worry you at all. The blindspot is, in fact, something you...might find unnecessary to pay attention to. 

With me, for example, rejection is an incredibly sensitive spot. Yes it hurts everyone but if you go out of your way to avoid feeling it - if you make yourself look as attractive as possible, to try to lure him in, and feel anxious over being able to keep his attraction to you - that probably is very sexual instinct. The instinct is not exactly about love, it's about _attraction _- which implies a power dynamic. The social instinct however, makes me constantly ask myself (except it's all instinctual) how I am being perceived by the world out there. Have I done something foolish or embarrassing? I can't turn the second instinct off either, but I can tell you that I much prefer being rejected socially than romantically, because I can take the former but not so much the latter. My blindspot being self-preservation, I pretty much never think about that stuff, however, I do like being around people who pay attention to SP, I suppose it complements me in some way.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Rose for a Heart said:


> The blindspot is, in fact, something you...might find unnecessary to pay attention to.


Yeah, I don't really feel that way about any of them lol.

Although as far as attraction goes, I'm usually more focused on what _I _find attractive, or what I find desirable, than how desirable I am to the other person. So there's that.


----------



## Dangerose

Remnants said:


> I would think that "identity" is more of an image-concern, though, but perhaps.


Oh, well...yeah, true

But mm...I don't know, it's something I do notice on like FB (moreso than in real life) 9s and 6s really aligning their identity with for instance a political movement or something like that, I mean it feels different from image identity because that's always quite...personal even if social, whereas it's more...

well idk


----------



## Darkbloom

If I simplified it I'd probably be sx/so but...I don't know, that feels so wrong to me :/
I thought sp/sx for the longest time partly because I associate some things that are supposed to be sp with so more than sp, like...for instance Independence, makes me imagine Beyonce singing about being an independent woman lol, and that to me is So, of course in many people sp shows as independence but it being a big part of what sp itself is, especially actively caring about independence, is strange to me.
But also some other sp things like obsession with having a job, stability, enough money and such, generally having things figured out, it seems like the kind of focus you develop when you are in tune with social environment more than with yourself and even your body, to me it sounds like naturally fitting into some kind of social thing but yes sp manifests like that in many people but I'd say partly because of sp unrelated traits those people happen to have.
But not sure, I don't know what sp really is.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Nissa Nissa
Okay, I guess I get what you mean.

And well, thinking about attraction some more, it's kind of weird for me. I mean, I've always felt repulsive at an instinctual level, regardless what anyone told me (but, I am used to repelling people too), and so the idea of a guy finding me attractive is almost too surreal for my mind to grasp, but... I do feel a sort of desire to mark or invade someone (not sure how to put it) or to break/be broken by someone, metaphorically. Tbh I usually approach sexual things in a sort of "distanced" way as much as I think about them, but then I'm kinda like that with everything, so...

(And rejection is funny, because I can be very sensitive to it (whether it's in a more social or sexual way is confusing to say though, as it's complicated), like my knee-jerk reaction is this angry "how _dare _they reject me," but then I'm like, well I guess I can't force myself on them...  

And yes I can be sensitive being judged also. Like I get so self-conscious in a way, because it's like... I don't _literally _want to have sex with someone just because I talk with them, yet I do often experience things as "sexual" in a way, or like I look for something sexual, and learning to appreciate anything in a non-sexual way has been confusing. Yet I'm used to lack of receptiveness so I've become more mentally held-back etc.

(Like I often see someone go "Sx is about more than 'just' sex" but I see sex as something more than 'just' something in the first place, so...)

If that makes sense. :laughing:


----------



## Paradigm

Remnants said:


> @*Paradigm*
> I'm not building an identity around anything, or I never said that I am, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about.


I didn't mean to say/imply you were. I was half conflating you two at the time because I was distracted, and half referring to this:


Remnants said:


> And like for example, I can find some social stuff interesting in theory, or recognize that neglecting it entirely will ultimately be negative for me, so can't relate to social last that's like, oh I hate anything to do with society and people, or don't give a fuck about it at all, but it's just hard to keep up with it, or... it feels like walking through a minefield, basically. But if I have one person to be engaged with then it's not so bad.


...Which I knew wasn't really related but could still possibly be SOC-mid.


----------



## Rouskyrie

Could anyone see me with an instinctual stacking that's not So/Sx?


----------



## star tripper

I see the instincts as feeding one another. I'm not 100% blind to sp concerns, but to sp for the sake of sp. Which is to say, I pay attention to sp concerns *only when they impact sx and so*. It's rather transparent, too. Sp-doms tend to come across to me as "too cool," so when they'd saay they needed to do sp shit, I'd be like, "Oh me too toooootally. I haven't showered in days so I need to do that. Definitely need to study. I've got way better things to do." Truth is I only really shower because I'm unattractive otherwise, and I don't study; however, I keep up in school because I was competitive against the other kids.*

On the subject of sx being "too much," I'm 100% there. I'm only ever truly myself among 1) sx/so or 2) among sx-lasts who admire sx-dom lol. It's something I have to curb in the social realm.

Since people are talking about so-mid, I thought I'd add my experience. I don't care that much about so, but it does inform me to a certain degree. It tells me when I can heat up the room and when to cool it. I tend to actively avoid much social interaction, but I am always aware of it just enough. 

* It was always originally that I was interested in the subject, but if people started doing better than me, my pride couldn't handle that.


----------



## Dangerose

No one swept in and explained why I have a 9 fix so I'm changing last fix to 8w7, feel free to dispute it

I'm also...not 100% clear why I'm so/sx and not sx/so tbh

Feel like I see so much more sx in myself than anyone else does ahaha and it's really confusing, and social 7 doesn't feel wrong but I'm not sure it's better than sexual 7 and sx/so idk has always kinda had right 'ring' to it? 

(7 is feeling right btw, better than 2, honestly it's felt for a long time that the only reason I was typing at 2 was feeling like an emotional/lonely person lol, that seems like most important thing but don't think it's good reason to type as 2 and I don't act like 2 would most of the time)

Not against so/sx at all, sp-last is the only thing that's really clear to me and I have plenty of social instinct, some so 7 descriptions are very on-point! but just announcing my doubt, it's always in back of my head that sx/so seems all right but other people think it's silly so 

MIKA's a 7w6 sx/so for instance (that's how Enneasite guy typed him at least and it was my gut feeling but it was also my gut feeling about myself, people don't seem to like to talk about his type lol, I could definitely see so/sx but for some reason that feels wrong) find something super relatable in him, the way he is, on weird level, could just be core type (but ENFP 7w6s are dime a dozen and I don't relate to all of them), thought it could be instinct, there's this weird 'oh it's _me_' thing
This music video is insanely relatable on that weird level






feel like there's something sx/so about it?

Though idk, don't think I seem similar to him, don't think other people would make the connection at all

People do compare me to Helena Bonham Carter a lot, maybe she's a 7 probably sp-last too, sx/so or so/sx?

I'm really tired and I'm aware these are not good ways of typing but yeah

I mean, I'm not doubting my instincts, never knew them, it's that the instincts in general don't make a lot of sense to me, I've finally decided equivocally that I'm sp-last, it's bizarre to me to type any other way, was only ever typing as it because people kept saying they saw sp in me but I have no idea why still, it never made sense, sp-last is great explanation of my personality and with higher sp my logic has to be weird and counterintuitive and I'm constantly thinking to myself 'I have noticed I am hungry, I guess that's my sp???' but that's wrong

And...well, I can feel a little like I'm twisting logic to make myself so-first, but not nearly as much, like when I'm answering questions about how my social instinct works on here I have to sit and really think of example that then feels 50% made up if that makes sense, sometimes I feel like I'm saying things on the forum like 'as a social-first I guess I'd say, I don't care about so at all!' even though I do and can see some social instinct in myself, and I'd probably feel that way a bit with sx-first typing too, I wouldn't know how to continue a sentence that began with 'as a sx-first' but I do at least feel like the conclusion wouldn't be 'I barely think about that'

I mean y'all have seen me talk about social things I think and it definitely makes sense on some level, I'm about equally happy with so/sx or sx/so as long as sp stays where it belongs   

Just not sure why I'm so obviously, definitely not sx-first, in some ways it feels like the obvious typing to me 

So yeah feel free to give comments, sorry this post was a mess, just...

Well I hate being _that person_, but I also hate feeling like I'm being dishonestish by typing as thing I think people will accept instead of one that makes most sense to me

But anyways, I'm happy with typing right now

7w6 - seems right
ENFP - seems right
27x - seems right
-278 :star:
-127:teapot:
- 279:butterfly:
sp-last - seems right
-so/sx :angel:
-sx/so :sun-smiley:

(smilies represent level of sonority those typings have)

So in conclusion only gut fix and order of first two instincts don't feel settled for me and the options don't feel like they make that much of a difference to me so...yeah, just my thoughts atm

Will sleep, and then stop posting here right before I do, when my thoughts are all a-jumble


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Nissa Nissa, this isn't an opinion on your type, but just something that might be relevant. I found these descriptions for the "writing styles" of different stackings, and the So/Sx does sound very much like you. I don't know if this list is necessarily accurate though, haha. 



> *sp/soc:* The most straightfoward in language, with relatively little trills and embellishments. Points made directly and from personal experience. Business-like. Clear. Cynical. Lacking in internal experience compared to other stackings.
> 
> *sp/sx:* Comes out as somewhat heavy and gloomy, or cool and detached. Often gives out a suffocating and insular vibe, as if their internal world is wrapped around by an impermeable membrane. Strong sensory impressions designed to awake sexuality. Makes one want to linger on one or two lines forever.
> 
> 
> *soc/sp:* Tangential. Lots of details and analysis. Very in-their-head and intellectual, and lacks sensuality. Comes across as level-headed and unspontaneous, but also with personal warmth. Their written works often require a great deal of mental concentration from the readers.
> 
> 
> *soc/sx: *The word "fantastical" comes to mind. Lots of virtuosity and trills, and often removed from the real world. One is whirled away by the dazzling fairies of their colorful imagination. Can be too rich in imagery for their own good. Sustained dramatic power due to their knowledge of interpersonal dynamics.
> 
> 
> *sx/sp:* Intense, often a stab-in-the-chest sensation, leaving me in tears without knowing why. Fantastical but much more concentrated in a few inner images. Can be abstract, animating dead objects into their field of contemplation. Embodiment of another human, thing, or idea is common in their writings.
> 
> 
> *sx/soc: *My impression of their writing is "fire-and-ice", as if one is to experience the extremes of heat and coldness at the same time. Often abstract, spilling one inner vision after another like a dream-sequence. Seems particularly in touch with the core meaning of life and death.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

It just gets confusing to me because of how I do feel like I care about them all to some degree... I just want _everything _in a way, but then it could _all _be the death of me as well, and they are _all _a source of insecurity in some way. So I can't really relate to how instincts are often presented.

Although seeing everything as potentially being the _death of me_ is probably Sp-ish.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

star tripper said:


> I see the instincts as feeding one another. I'm not 100% blind to sp concerns, but to sp for the sake of sp. Which is to say, I pay attention to sp concerns *only when they impact sx and so*. It's rather transparent, too. Sp-doms tend to come across to me as "too cool," so when they'd saay they needed to do sp shit, I'd be like, "Oh me too toooootally. I haven't showered in days so I need to do that. Definitely need to study. I've got way better things to do." Truth is I only really shower because I'm unattractive otherwise, and I don't study; however, I keep up in school because I was competitive against the other kids.*


Tbh when I was younger I didn't use to shower at all (though after I got used to showering I could no longer go without it), so I don't necessarily associate that with Sp. If anything, if I was more Sx or So I might have cared about my hygiene more because it does kinda affect my attractiveness or how presentable I am. But I am often too neurotic about my needs to be particularly "cool" lol.

And I've never been focused on my studies either. Honestly I can't really motivate myself to learn about anything unless I find it really interesting. And well, as a teen I felt I had much more important things to invest my time in than homework or showering. At some point I barely showed up to school at all, I think.

So it's funny, the way instincts can work.


----------



## Darkbloom

.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Signorina Misteriosa*
Yeah, at some point I got into the habit of showering, and after that I haven't been able to go a day without it (well, sometimes I try to but it's so unbearable it's not worth it because it just makes the rest of the day awful)... so that's maybe more Sp, not sure.


----------



## Paradigm

Rouskyrie said:


> Could anyone see me with an instinctual stacking that's not So/Sx?





kmal91 said:


> unsure if there is enough data for anyone to make an educated contribution, but my core type considerations are: 7, 9, 4, or 1
> it is somewhat unlikely that my core type is an 8 or 6, but I am open to the possibility
> i am 99% certain my core type is not a 3, 2, 5


Neither of you have enough posts to be known or typed, so unless you give us more info than "pls help," you're not likely to get replies. I mean, admittedly, I'm the last person to notice persons, but still.

You could link us to questionnaire posts if you did one, or go into detail here about how you view instincts or type and their relation to yourself.


----------



## Dangerose

edit: yeah this was too embarrassing


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> I'm not 100% blind to sp concerns, but to sp for the sake of sp. Which is to say, I pay attention to sp concerns *only when they impact sx and so*. It's rather transparent, too. Sp-doms tend to come across to me as "too cool," so when they'd saay they needed to do sp shit, I'd be like, "Oh me too toooootally. I haven't showered in days so I need to do that. Definitely need to study. I've got way better things to do." Truth is I only really shower because I'm unattractive otherwise, and I don't study; however, I keep up in school because I was competitive against the other kids.*


Yeah, I relate to this, made sp thing up because it seemed like the thing to do but anyone could have seen through it

tbh I think the existence of sp for its own sake was a serious confusion for me for at least half my life, think I always assumed people doing sp things were being distant for no reason or using it as excuse for their REAL priorities [/QUOTE]



Remnants said:


> Tbh when I was younger I didn't use to shower at all (though after I got used to showering I could no longer go without it), so I don't necessarily associate that with Sp. If anything, if I was more Sx or So I might have cared about my hygiene more because it does kinda affect my attractiveness or how presentable I am.
> 
> And I've never been focused on my studies either. Honestly I can't really motivate myself to learn about anything unless I find it really interesting. And well, as a teen I felt I had much more important things to invest my time in than homework or showering. At some point I barely showed up to school at all, I think.


I don't shower that much, I'm always surprised when people act like it's odd not to shower every day...well I grew up in a droughty area so if you showered every day you were kinda a jerk, but I just don't feel like I get dirty enough to have proper shower every day, maybe I'll wash a bit just briefly or shave my legs but it's very directed 

but idk I think I'm hygienic, I'm very sensitive to not smelling nice or whatever

Though well I don't really care if I get dirt on me or something, sometimes I've been walking down dirt road and people come up to me like 'why do you have dirt on your legs :shocked:' or keep telling me about it like it's something I care about or should be thankful for that they're telling me, don't think it's a hygiene issue just people being snobs


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> MIKA's a 7w6 sx/so for instance (that's how Enneasite guy typed him at least and it was my gut feeling but it was also my gut feeling about myself, people don't seem to like to talk about his type lol, I could definitely see so/sx but for some reason that feels wrong) find something super relatable in him, the way he is, on weird level, could just be core type (but ENFP 7w6s are dime a dozen and I don't relate to all of them), thought it could be instinct, there's this weird 'oh it's _me_' thing
> This music video is insanely relatable on that weird level
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> feel like there's something sx/so about it?


Yeah, this does seem sx/so. I really like this song (never listened to MIKA before), especially the French version. It makes it more sx haha. Paris/France seems like a very sx/so culture. I think we've been over this before.

The lyrics are very sp-last in favor of sx:

And I don't care if it burns my eyes
And I don't care cause my love is blind



> I mean, I'm not doubting my instincts, never knew them, it's that the instincts in general don't make a lot of sense to me, I've finally decided equivocally that I'm sp-last, it's bizarre to me to type any other way, was only ever typing as it because people kept saying they saw sp in me but I have no idea why still, it never made sense, sp-last is great explanation of my personality and with higher sp my logic has to be weird and counterintuitive and I'm constantly thinking to myself 'I have noticed I am hungry, I guess that's my sp???' but that's wrong


I still question if I'm sp-first, as I was saying before too, because I mean, if I could I would forego sleep/eating if it meant I could do other things, or like stay online talking to people. Would an sp-first say that? I find sp-first people to be very regular in their habits, and I'm just not at all. I become more sp-focused when I neglect sp needs for too long, but again, that may just be Si. I still can't tell the difference, but I know sp/so's in my life, and while we're similar, I feel they're a lot more "safe" than I am, or reminding me to take more care of myself. It may be because they're SJs too. 

I agree with others who said sx can be "too much" or "intense", and that's how I've experienced it in a 7w6 sx/so friend, but then she was too much for many people haha, which may be due to other factors too. I do feel like a lot of these descriptions of sx are so dramatic and over-the-top (and maybe that's my sx-last bias :wink, like again, this:



> sx/soc: My impression of their writing is "fire-and-ice", as if one is to experience the extremes of heat and coldness at the same time. Often abstract, spilling one inner vision after another like a dream-sequence. Seems particularly in touch with the core meaning of life and death.


It sounds like it came from that enneasite website again, which I wouldn't be surprised if this is the source of these descriptions. I mean, I don't feel like the MIKA song is very dramatic, so maybe he's so/sx, but it has a clear sx-first theme. 

Another thing I wonder about sx is, does it have to be directed at people/romantic interests, or can it just be obsession in general, like of your interests and hobbies? I've heard this from other sx-firsts too.

Yes, I suppose this does fit me, but I don't think this is the best way to type someone:



> sp/soc: The most straightfoward in language, with relatively little trills and embellishments. Points made directly and from personal experience. Business-like. Clear. Cynical. Lacking in internal experience compared to other stackings.


Also, @*Signorina Misteriosa*, you said this below earlier and it strikes me as very so-last. I don't think I could ever "disconnect" from the world in this way (though, I am pretty disconnected and don't participate in Facebook and such, but not after trying to...), but I wouldn't frame it in this way. I wouldn't forget about the world, or "social sphere," as you say. That's sort of how I see my sp/sx friend, he's fine being with his girlfriend and living independently, while the rest of the world kind of falls away. It's why I know I'm not social-last, because social things are still on my radar, while he can be pretty oblivious to it at times. This paragraph just seems very concerned with sp and sx (in no particular order, but maybe more sx/sp; though, I can still see sp/sx as possibility for you too).



> The thing is...
> I don't think I could ever miss So, like if I had a husband who decided to keep me in his basement for the rest of our lives I wouldn't mind it as long as we loved each other, tbh I might be the one more likely to suggest we go spend the rest of our lives in the basement, I might miss specific things and places and I don't have much productive energy but I'm hyperactive so a literal basement could be a bit small for me but I'm sure we'd find a good outlet for my energy and I definitely wouldn't think about the social sphere at all, actually I think that might be why this is happening...I self isolate so easily and forget So is a thing and then when I'm forced to go out it all hits me like a ton of bricks.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, this does seem sx/so. I really like this song (never listened to MIKA before), especially the French version. It makes it more sx haha. Paris/France seems like a very sx/so culture. I think we've been over this before.
> 
> The lyrics are very sp-last in favor of sx:
> 
> And I don't care if it burns my eyes
> And I don't care cause my love is blind


yeah I agree about all this! glad you liked it, recommend him

I've been back and forth about so/sx and sx/so, he has a lot of songs with social themes as well, but I ~generally~ get more of a sx/so feeling so idk, probably not the best example actually XD since it's a little unclear



> I still question if I'm sp-first, as I was saying before too, because I mean, if I could I would forego sleep/eating if it meant I could do other things, or like stay online talking to people. Would an sp-first say that? I find sp-first people to be very regular in their habits, and I'm just not at all. I become more sp-focused when I neglect sp needs for too long, but again, that may just be Si. I still can't tell the difference, but I know sp/so's in my life, and while we're similar, I feel they're a lot more "safe" than I am, or reminding me to take more care of myself. It may be because they're SJs too.


Forgot (I've been so bad at responding to things lately), I 100% thought you WERE typing at so/sp and that seems way better than sp/so
I have no idea how sp-first is supposed to turn up though, I don't know how applicable the 'first instinct is neurosis' thing is but it surprises me if neurosis can be so even-keel, but I do notice sp-firsts being regular in their habits, so...I really don't know  and I don't like just saying 'ehh, the vibe' but I don't have anything else, your vibe to me is more so/sp 




> It sounds like it came from that enneasite website again, which I wouldn't be surprised if this is the source of these descriptions. I mean, I don't feel like the MIKA song is very dramatic, so maybe he's so/sx, but it has a clear sx-first theme.


yeah, it does and doesn't sound like something I personally associated with any kind of writing, sounds like it's describing fantasy thing that can't exist



> Another thing I wonder about sx is, does it have to be directed at people/romantic interests, or can it just be obsession in general, like of your interests and hobbies? I've heard this from other sx-firsts too.


Well obviously I'm the worst person to talk about instincts but I hear that sometimes and I think it's true, sx is more about feeding off and into things (well, I relate to that but I think it's partly 7) 

To quote MIKA "looking for treasure in the things that you threw/like a magpie, I live for glitter, not you" 

I hate the thing about sx that's like 'walks into room and looks for the juice' because it makes me think of Buster from Arrested Development










but that concept is true...isn't it?



> Also, @*Signorina Misteriosa*, you said this below earlier and it strikes me as very so-last. I don't think I could ever "disconnect" from the world in this way (though, I am pretty disconnected and don't participate in Facebook and such, but not after trying to...), but I wouldn't frame it in this way. I wouldn't forget about the world, or "social sphere," as you say. That's sort of how I see my sp/sx friend, he's fine being with his girlfriend and living independently, while the rest of the world kind of falls away. It's why I know I'm not social-last, because social things are still on my radar, while he can be pretty oblivious to it at times. This paragraph just seems very concerned with sp and sx (in no particular order, but maybe more sx/sp; though, I can still see sp/sx as possibility for you too).


Oh, I think I was going to say sometthing about this too, don't remember what

I can relate, think even Taylor Swift can:












> I self isolate so easily and forget So is a thing and then when I'm forced to go out it all hits me like a ton of bricks.


This especially, been BIZARRELY experiencing it recently, partly something you've mentioned too @Signorina Misteriosa about not being used to being busy and then expecting to have more time lol, but like right now I'm living in my own house in a foreign country in a city where I don't know anyone, made plans with one girl in the same country for a month from now but I'm already dreading it ahaha , think socialization can be like a muscle and it's easy for me to let that muscle atrophy

Or maybe that's not what you meant but

I have no idea about your instincts but I don't think self-isolating, living in basement is necessarily so-last


----------



## Turi

What can I ask myself to determine instinctual preferences?

I'm considering SP and SO more seriously now.
At first glance, I just assumed I was SX because it fit.
But INFJ type 5w4 SX sounds weird and full of contradictions.


----------



## Dangerose

Turi said:


> What can I ask myself to determine instinctual preferences?
> 
> I'm considering SP and SO more seriously now.
> At first glance, I just assumed I was SX because it fit.
> But INFJ type 5w4 SX sounds weird and full of contradictions.


Well, I wouldn't know what your type is but I don't think it's a very strange combination fwiw, all the types can be any instinct and there's nothing strange about INFJ sx or INFJ 5w4 imo (thinking type might be more common but I think Ni and 5 are very compatible) so I don't think it's odd, no idea if it applies to you

Maybe you can talk about how you relate/don't relate to the instincts for people to weigh in or ask further questions?


----------



## Dangerose

edit: ok I was feeling weird about the links to some 7s I could think of

But when I think about 7s, they feel more...present and unfiltered than I do, I'm so self-conscious in comparison :/ Like so many 7s are exactly what they are, and I never am, I'm always fighting to just like...do what I want to, I mean against the voice that's saying 'you'll look weird!!!' 

Is it anti-7 or is it sp?


----------



## Turi

Nissa Nissa said:


> Well, I wouldn't know what your type is but I don't think it's a very strange combination fwiw, all the types can be any instinct and there's nothing strange about INFJ sx or INFJ 5w4 imo (thinking type might be more common but I think Ni and 5 are very compatible) so I don't think it's odd, no idea if it applies to you
> 
> Maybe you can talk about how you relate/don't relate to the instincts for people to weigh in or ask further questions?


Thanks, I'll have to have a run through tonight and see what questions I might have etc.

I made a "whats my type" video and put it in the "what's my type" section here if anyone can be bothered with that kind of thing.

Tried to keep it as brief as possible.


----------



## Dangerose

Turi said:


> Thanks, I'll have to have a run through tonight and see what questions I might have etc.
> 
> I made a "whats my type" video and put it in the "what's my type" section here if anyone can be bothered with that kind of thing.
> 
> Tried to keep it as brief as possible.


Watched, it was entertaining, I enjoy your timing  responding here because it's more fun to me and I'm really unconfident about my impression and I feel like not a lot of people check individual typing threads

I would actually guess 8w9 > 5w6? To me you have a very level, grounded vibe. maybe 1w9

This was interesting to me:
"I see myself as a complete failure, someone who isn't doing their job as a father or a wife properly, not earning enough money to keep their family on track, I realize this is self-critical, I'm doing the best I can, I'm doing ok, I always feel like I could do better, so I constantly see myself as a failure, even, say, at work if I get a sale, I always feel like it should have been bigger, and if I get more than one sale which isn't very common at all because I'm the world's worst salesperson, I always feel like there should have been more. This mentality consumes me, it defines my thoughts and who I am, I always want to better myself, I'm extremely self-critical and I kick myself very hard even where other people might compliment me"

Though you said you never get angry so maybe not 8, also that you haven't experienced anxiety in your life before - doesn't feel 5 either

Your discussion of how you relate to stress seems possibly 8 --> 5

Your discussion of your dislike of schedule being messed with seems sp, maybe Pi too

Discussion of authority 'I don't like anyone feeling like they have any kind of power over me" seems 8 "I respond to them with sarcasm, I respond to them in a belittling manner, I respond to them by completely dismissing what they are saying because it comes from a position I don't respect, etc" also 8, 'every word critiqued, torn apart, shredded" a bit more 6 "and then poured over some kind of ocean" :laughing:

So I'd guess...8w9 6w5/5w6 3w4 and I thiiiiink sp-first, maybe sp/so but I'm really not sure

Hope other people have comments


----------



## Turi

Nissa Nissa said:


> Watched, it was entertaining, I enjoy your timing  responding here because it's more fun to me and I'm really unconfident about my impression and I feel like not a lot of people check individual typing threads
> 
> I would actually guess 8w9 > 5w6? To me you have a very level, grounded vibe. maybe 1w9
> 
> This was interesting to me:
> "I see myself as a complete failure, someone who isn't doing their job as a father or a wife properly, not earning enough money to keep their family on track, I realize this is self-critical, I'm doing the best I can, I'm doing ok, I always feel like I could do better, so I constantly see myself as a failure, even, say, at work if I get a sale, I always feel like it should have been bigger, and if I get more than one sale which isn't very common at all because I'm the world's worst salesperson, I always feel like there should have been more. This mentality consumes me, it defines my thoughts and who I am, I always want to better myself, I'm extremely self-critical and I kick myself very hard even where other people might compliment me"
> 
> Though you said you never get angry so maybe not 8, also that you haven't experienced anxiety in your life before - doesn't feel 5 either
> 
> Your discussion of how you relate to stress seems possibly 8 --> 5
> 
> Your discussion of your dislike of schedule being messed with seems sp, maybe Pi too
> 
> Discussion of authority 'I don't like anyone feeling like they have any kind of power over me" seems 8 "I respond to them with sarcasm, I respond to them in a belittling manner, I respond to them by completely dismissing what they are saying because it comes from a position I don't respect, etc" also 8, 'every word critiqued, torn apart, shredded" a bit more 6 "and then poured over some kind of ocean" :laughing:
> 
> So I'd guess...8w9 6w5/5w6 3w4 and I thiiiiink sp-first, maybe sp/so but I'm really not sure
> 
> Hope other people have comments


Thanks for watching, it means a lot.

I have an image in my head of type 8s being a bit crazy, extraverted, angry, confrontational etc and none of this is me.

SP first. Interesting. Gives me something to read into.

Thanks again.
Glad to hear my sense of humour is appreciated, lol.

Most people just think that stuff is weird and "taking it too far".


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Nissa Nissa*
Well, I don't entirely disagree with you about how instincts are treated. Actually I think I've ranted about it before, how Sx can be so... romanticized? Although I do think "shooting star" works to create a picture of how it can express itself, doesn't even have to be that over-the-top.

Ironically though, one of the things that comes to mind when I think of shooting stars is this song, which seems SpSo to me:




(There's an option for subtitles, if they don't show up on their own)

Edit: Although I will say those archetypes (or the writing styles even) are sort of limiting, because I don't really relate to any of them. =P

As for showering, well my hygiene was _really _bad back then. I even got made fun off a lot because of this, but I didn't care for the other kids at school much so I just thought they should mind their own business. But then I started to talk more with my aunt who I got along with and she somehow managed to convince me that it was a good idea to _not _be complete human garbage. :laughing: (Think she's So and type 3, or at least 3-influenced)


----------



## Paradigm

@Turi
Idk, I think the assumption that 5 is so compatible with Ni is far overstated. There's way too many INxJs who assume they're 5s because introversion. 
Plus, the combination of Fe-aux and 5? C'mon, no way that's so numerous. _Possible_, but not as likely.

Not to say _you're_ not 5 (though I still think you should look into 6w5... And maybe type 1w9) but I just find the assumption taken to absurd levels. But it happens a lot. IxTx in general over-identify with 5, much like IxFxs (exception: ISFJ) with 4, ExxPs with 7, etc.

Edit: I looked at the numbers again and my memory mixed up the 24% of 4 with the 18% of 5 with INFJs. My point still mostly stands, though.


----------



## Vaka

I have trouble differentiating between 4w5 and 4w3. I know I have 5 influence in me, but I don't know if it comes from a 5 head fix or a 5 wing. The thing is, I'm very focused on growth and accomplishing my goals which seems w3 ish. I can be a show off, I've tattooed myself and I get piercings so as to shove myself in other peoples' faces even if I don't say a word. I hate attention, but I enjoy simple adoration of my expressions of myself

At the same time, I'm very withdrawn and get easily overwhelmed. I desire deep intimacy, yet I fail when it comes to the simple things like smalltalk and I feel unable to give myself to others despite the fact I desire so much intimacy, deep closeness
When I do get close to people, it's intense

I have a tendency to indulge in all these self subjective driven theories as to what existence is, why we're here, what the universe is. I'm deeply engulfed in my own imagination in searching for my origin which can lead to various bizarre theories as to what existence is. I'm searching both for myself and for 'the truth' even though I know the truth is unobtainable 

I enjoy partying and letting go, being free, drinking, dancing, hanging out with people and honestly, it energizes me, yet I also get intensely overwheled and fail at cultivating friendships.
I also NEED my own space and alone time to be free with my own self to think, to write, to create, to be

Basically..I know I'm a 4, but I don't know the wing. I know I have 5 influence, but I don't know where it is. I have a lot of 7 in me too, so it gets confusing


----------



## Dangerose

Turi said:


> Thanks for watching, it means a lot.
> 
> I have an image in my head of type 8s being a bit crazy, extraverted, angry, confrontational etc and none of this is me.
> 
> SP first. Interesting. Gives me something to read into.
> 
> Thanks again.
> Glad to hear my sense of humour is appreciated, lol.
> 
> Most people just think that stuff is weird and "taking it too far".


No prob, wish I could be more helpful
8 was my feeling but tbh it's a type I'm not very familiar with, it was the impression I got but I could be way off...I'd guess gut type though. I don't think you seem like a 6, too solid and I didn't really get the feeling of 6 concerns in your video, though I think it's a possibility...
If you see yourself as very conflict-avoidant than I'd imagine 8s out of the picture but I didn't get the feeling you were very conflict-avoidant, your discussion of authority for instance.
Can you talk more about your dislike of power? Can you trace the root causes?
And your feel of failure - what's at stake, if you fail?



Paradigm said:


> @Turi
> Idk, I think the assumption that 5 is so compatible with Ni is far overstated. There's way too many INxJs who assume they're 5s because introversion.
> Plus, the combination of Fe-aux and 5? C'mon, no way that's so numerous. _Possible_, but not as likely.


If it's possible, than it's compatible, and I don't think the likelihood of a particular combination is very relevant when discussing type. I agree introversion can make people lean more towards withdrawn types. why wouldn't Ni and 5 be compatible?

(I get why aux-Fe and 5 don't go together but aux Fe imo can be reeled pretty tightly to the Ti, doesn't seem that surprising of a combo to me)


----------



## Dangerose

Remnants said:


> @*Nissa Nissa*
> Well, I don't entirely disagree with you about how instincts are treated. Actually I think I've ranted about it before, how Sx can be so... romanticized? Although I do think "shooting star" works to create a picture of how it can express itself, doesn't even have to be that over-the-top.
> 
> Ironically though, one of the things that comes to mind when I think of shooting stars is this song, which seems SpSo to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (There's an option for subtitles, if they don't show up on their own)
> 
> Edit: Although I will say those archetypes (or the writing styles even) are sort of limiting, because I don't really relate to any of them. =P


Oooh this song is so beautiful <3 and I'll probably like it more when I get headphones that play not just in one ear :/

Less literal lol but recently watched documentary about this guy so he's been on my mind, really reminds me of 'shooting star' thing, 7w8 (but idk if so/sx or sx/so, I wanted to say sx/so because of that shooting star thing lol)






(interested in opinions)

And...very different from me :/


----------



## Darkbloom

Well hope everyone read the thing, now I regret not writing more, didn't know I'd end up deleting it but :frustrating:

Forgot about 'hooked onto' thing, for me it's also different from being obsessed, I associate it with for example songs, like there are days when I have songs I'm very excited about and there are days when I don't and not having any songs that truly hook me is such a horrible feeling and it feels like I'll never experience the feeling of being hooked again, it just feels very dead. And I love it when I discover a song, usually something that feels like I've known it since forever but never actively listened to, it just makes the whole week better.
It's not just with songs, there are other things, but it's all kinda like that, for me it's not really like an obsession.

Or different kind of thing but also hook-y, silly but I really liked my first professor at college, the way he explained things but also just something about him, probably because he was the first one I met and surprisingly nice, he became part of my everyday thoughts and like in my head I discussed typology with him and such even though he probably never heard of any of this, or like I tried to think of songs to go with things I was learning, and I just liked seeing him in the morning, he just made things a little bit more interesting, not a very sx-y thing lol but has some kind of hook.
I mean generally hooked for me can mean becoming part of my thoughts/imagination even if it's not sexual or romantic or really obsessive.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

star tripper said:


> Sorry I was just providing a thesis of sorts at the beginning there. I tend to do that.
> 
> The thing is most people I know consume obsessions the way my friend does. I have another friend who becomes obsessed with the lead actress of a TV show she loves (Castle, Friends, X Files). She knows everything about these actresses... but she's not trying to get to know them. It's not her goal. It's just the result of wanting to experience these women over and over. It's rather interesting to me. I sort of get it because there are some things and people I love without being HOOKED, though I still find myself exercising the same patterns with those things/people. It's just half-assed lol.


Lol yeah. I mean, a lot of the time I can get obsessed over stuff like... collecting resources in video games and stuff, which seems mainly Sp lol (now if only I could get more like that with my _real life resources _and stuff, but that's not as fun >_>)

And hm, admittedly "getting to know" them isn't quite my focus either. It's almost sad in a way, but I'm mainly interested insofar it aligns with my... well, fetishes basically. Or often I'll make up my own characters inspired by them, like I need to make everything my own in a way, to actually feel... connected I guess (I'm so eloquent ), anything outside of myself I feel helpless about, basically.

Also, this is besides the point but I don't really tend to be into _artists _much. As in, I like characters, or I like music, but the artist behind it often isn't so interesting to me. In general I find reality boring, though, and this is related to that.



Signorina Misteriosa said:


> Well hope everyone read the thing, now I regret not writing more, didn't know I'd end up deleting it but :frustrating:
> 
> Forgot about 'hooked onto' thing, for me it's also different from being obsessed, I associate it with for example songs, like there are days when I have songs I'm very excited about and there are days when I don't and not having any songs that truly hook me is such a horrible feeling and it feels like I'll never experience the feeling of being hooked again, it just feels very dead. And I love it when I discover a song, usually something that feels like I've known it since forever but never actively listened to, it just makes the whole week better.
> It's not just with songs, there are other things, but it's all kinda like that, for me it's not really like an obsession.


I get really hooked on songs too (but then who doesn't? I mean, I guess _some_ doesn't, but...), and it can be both such an amazing but also horrible feeling because I know I'll likely get bored of it eventually, and will I ever be able to find something so perfect again?

(Well, some people seem really weird when it comes to music to me. Or like I mentioned to you before, the music they listen to can be so weird, not just because I don't personally like it, because I know there's such a thing as _different preferences_ and all... but I just... have to wonder if they really like it, sometimes)


----------



## Rose for a Heart

https://vocaroo.com/i/s1mxbYM00gRa

I just did a voice message thing that way I can delete it later haha.


----------



## Dangerose

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> Forgot about 'hooked onto' thing, for me it's also different from being obsessed, I associate it with for example songs, like there are days when I have songs I'm very excited about and there are days when I don't and not having any songs that truly hook me is such a horrible feeling and it feels like I'll never experience the feeling of being hooked again, it just feels very dead. And I love it when I discover a song, usually something that feels like I've known it since forever but never actively listened to, it just makes the whole week better.





Remnants said:


> I get really hooked on songs too (but then who doesn't? I mean, I guess _some_ doesn't, but...), and it can be both such an amazing but also horrible feeling because I know I'll likely get bored of it eventually, and will I ever be able to find something so perfect again?


Ooh, great example of hook thing

I love and hate that, I find the song and it's like, I want to listen to it for the rest of my life, but there's also coming awareness of, eventually you'll get sick of song, sometimes I try to pace myself but I'm not sure if the thing runs on timer or number of listens and I figure it's better to get most out of song while it's still my favourite thing in the whole wide world

But then actually, sometimes I find those songs later and it's like mini-revival of when that song was my hook, so it's not like it's gone forever

Or shows too, similar thing, finish a show and whatever I can get out of it and then...I want to find something exactly the same, feels like nothing could ever replace it, from experience I know that eventually I'll find another show that makes me as happy but when I don't have it it really feels like there won't be, 'nothing new under the sun'

______________

Getting to know characters: not sure I'm focused on knowledge either, think it's more about experience for me

But for instance, I was really into Frasier for instance and I loved Niles, so first I started with all the things he referenced so for instance Niles was big Flaubert fan so I read a bunch of Flaubert, etc., then I didn't really have anything left so I resolved to watch Cheers, even though he wasn't in it, but so I could round out the world he existed in 

And it was good, I gained more appreciation for Flaubert, found another show I loved, always nice when one interest seamlessly leads to another even though I can try to fight it lol 'this is still about Niles' XD

And in general I can do that kind of thing, but I'm not sure how I'd characterize it










________________________
@Rose for a Heart your voice is so beautiful!


----------



## Dangerose

* *




In more news I was looking for a good Niles gif and what fun I found one...










That linked to MY POST

One of my *most embarrassing posts*

:computer::1892::1892::1892::1892::1892::1892::1892::1892::1892:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Rose for a Heart* 
Somehow you sound different from what I expected.

And I was thinking about how... depending on my type, that could affect how I relate to instincts, but I think instincts are rather essential in a way. Like enneatype is the way our instincts manifest than other way around. And so I think that if there's something that seems off, it's best to get instincts ironed out independent of enneatype.

@*Nissa Nissa* 
Well now. You should be proud. :wink:


----------



## star tripper

@Remnants It's funny you mention being into MUSIC rather than artists. I just had this conversation with my dad (sx) and sister (so). My sister tends to get into entire genres (like metal or k-pop). My dad and I home in on one particular artist (he would go gay for Robin Trower). I had been hypothesizing that this was a sign of instinct. Going back to my Wally West fangirl of a friend, she loves DC and Marvel. I literally just love Dick Grayson and perhaaaaps the Bat family, though I only read their comics if they relate to Dick. I'm kind of a fake comic fan.

Fetish is definitely a key difference. I don't take an object and draw it into myself. There isn't something in me that I know of that dictates what will get me hooked. I don't have a type either. I've been hooked on Bruce Dickinson, Axl Rose, Ender Wiggin, Edward Elric, Dick Grayson, Will Graham, and Carrie Underwood (among others). I was drawn to them rather than drawing them to me. I flew into their flame so to speak.

I really think these are differences that need to be fleshed out and can lead to mistypings. Imo your obsession type sounds sp (my friend is so) though I'm totally spitballing.

@Nissa Nissa I, too, research references my obsessions make lol. Bruce Dickinson alone has made me read Aleister Crowley books and watch '60s British television and airplane documentaries, not to mention the amount of history and sci-fi books I read cover to cover. But for me, I guess, researching was experiencing? Like the more I knew about them, the closer I felt, like I was one with their soul. I wanted to invade their thoughts and reproduce them. I wanted their brain to swallow mine or my brain to swallow theirs. I wanted to make them my possession.

I do wonder if that is related to our core types. My creepy tendencies definitely read 5 and knowledge vs experience sounds 5 vs 7.

But I'm just kicking around ideas.


----------



## Paradigm

star tripper said:


> I needed to _know_ him, to understand his mind and his heart. I was literally trying to become intimate with a fictional character. I couldn't leave one stone unturned.
> Does that make sense? My friend loves Wally West, but she doesn't need to "get close" to him.


I relate to that, albeit probably to a slightly lesser degree (but still quite close). I get attached to characters, not so much universes. If stalking a character was a thing, I'd be a stalker for all the ones I've overly-related to or just plain wanted to understand more. Nowadays it's almost the sole reason that I consume media or books, just to feel that... rush of intimacy, I guess? If there's not much of that rush, there's not much chance I'll consume it. Makes me very picky in comparison to everyone else I know.

My SP/SO mom does come... somewhat close to my level of pickiness, but I think it's more related to her core 6w5-ness.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> yeah I agree about all this! glad you liked it, recommend him
> 
> I've been back and forth about so/sx and sx/so, he has a lot of songs with social themes as well, but I ~generally~ get more of a sx/so feeling so idk, probably not the best example actually XD since it's a little unclear


Yeah, I think I may look into more from him, but I see what you're saying about it being sx/so, like the song reminds me in a way of Ariel singing "Part of Your World" from The Little Mermaid, if that makes sense, who I think may be a 7w6 sx/so. It's been a while since I've seen it, but she definitely seems sx: Sees Eric and is like,"I must be with him! I'll even sell my voice!" 



> Forgot (I've been so bad at responding to things lately), I 100% thought you WERE typing at so/sp and that seems way better than sp/so
> I have no idea how sp-first is supposed to turn up though, I don't know how applicable the 'first instinct is neurosis' thing is but it surprises me if neurosis can be so even-keel, but I do notice sp-firsts being regular in their habits, so...I really don't know  and I don't like just saying 'ehh, the vibe' but I don't have anything else, your vibe to me is more so/sp


Oh, that's cool that you think so, gives me more to think about, and actually, I've always been on the fence with so/sp or sp/so. I mainly went with sp/so, because I related wholeheartedly to Chestnut's/Naranjo's conception of the sp-4 being long-suffering, stoic and enduring, but then when I see Riso-Hudson say sp-4s are reckless and seeking danger and such, then maybe I'm not sp-4, because I'm not really that way. If you've ever read The Glass Menagerie by Tennessee Williams, I think Tom Wingfield is a good example of a sp-4, and I relate a ton to that character, whereas a so-4 may be someone like The Underground Man from Dostoevsky, but I mean, I even relate a lot to The Phantom of the Opera and he's a sx-4, so I realize it's not the best way to type myself, but that's sort of how I understand the instincts in 4s. Those characters are all a part of me in some way. Though, the character I relate most to is Stephen Dedalus from James Joyce's novels, and I'm not sure what he would be, except that he isn't social-last. I was thinking of how Molly Bloom is probably a good example of a 2w3 sx/so too. I'd say Leopold Bloom is a 9w1 so/sp. Why is it easier to type characters than myself haha?

On this test, I always type as Social 4. :congratulatory:I find this one of the more interesting tests because it doesn't explicitly ask sp, so, or sx-related questions, but then what is the criteria for determining a type + instinct? It seems pretty accurate, though. I like how there's no sx-types in my lineup haha.

https://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test-2



> *You are most likely a type 4 (the Individualist) with 4w5 wing.*
> *Social variant*
> 
> Type 4 so
> 
> Type 5 sp
> 
> Type 6 sp
> 
> Type 9 sp
> 
> Type 1 sp
> 
> Type 2 sp
> 
> Type 7 so
> 
> Type 3 sp
> 
> Type 8 sp


 
To me, the idea that your first instinct is "neurotic" while your second is creative and more easily used, because it's less neurotic, doesn't make that much sense to me. I think if you're neurotic, you'll see a neurotic expression of the first instinct, but I don't see why it automatically has to be "neurotic" for the mere fact that it's your first instinct. If anything, I would think you would be best at your first instinct, and would be much better at using it than someone who has it lower in their stacking. Doesn't that make more sense?



> Well obviously I'm the worst person to talk about instincts but I hear that sometimes and I think it's true, sx is more about feeding off and into things (well, I relate to that but I think it's partly 7)
> 
> To quote MIKA "looking for treasure in the things that you threw/like a magpie, I live for glitter, not you"


Yeah, that's the thing, I am _very_ obsessive about my interests and such, even to an unhealthy extent, and should move on to other things instead, but this doesn't really extend to romantic interests all that much, unfortunately. Yet, I think this would have to be there for a type to be sx-first, so I think it does make a difference to what the obsession is directed at. 



> I hate the thing about sx that's like 'walks into room and looks for the juice' because it makes me think of Buster from Arrested Development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but that concept is true...isn't it?


:laughing: Ironic too, because Buster is probably sx-last. No, I don't look for the "juice" in a room, maybe sx-types do, but if we're talking about looking for the juice in the room, it's... 


* *















Though, I don't really care about food all that much, like when anyone posts pictures of their food on Facebook, I just...:bored: I feel like sp-types would be more likely to do that.



> This especially, been BIZARRELY experiencing it recently, partly something you've mentioned too @*Signorina Misteriosa* about not being used to being busy and then expecting to have more time lol, but like right now I'm living in my own house in a foreign country in a city where I don't know anyone, made plans with one girl in the same country for a month from now but I'm already dreading it ahaha , think socialization can be like a muscle and it's easy for me to let that muscle atrophy
> 
> Or maybe that's not what you meant but
> 
> I have no idea about your instincts but I don't think self-isolating, living in basement is necessarily so-last


To clarify, I don't mean the act itself is so-last, but that you'd be _okay_ with doing so, and that it would be with a significant other too makes a difference. That's how I feel with so-lasts, they're okay with being on their own as a "lone-wolf" type, like I think of how Kristoff is in Frozen. It's just him and Sven, and he's happy with that. He's sp/sx. 






Whereas like Elsa isn't social-last, even though she tried to be one for like a day haha. She's sp/so. She isolated herself out of, "I don't want to hurt anyone" (i.e. Social + Self-Preservation motives). I'd imagine introversion plays a role too in wanting to self-isolate too. I can get in my "People suck" mode too sometimes. Though, again, Dwayne here is sp/sx (4w5).


* *
















As far as your instincts, I'm trying to remember what I said after I saw your video a few months ago, and I think I thought you did seem more sx/so, but I honestly can't remember now. You definitely weren't social-last. I think so/sx or sx/so makes sense.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Rose for a Heart said:


> I just did a voice message thing that way I can delete it later haha.


I like your voice too! It's very soothing. It's nice to hear how you sound, makes you more real than just words on a screen haha, like how Daniel Day Lewis in this video says the voice is the fingerprint of the soul (around 3:50). You sound quite similar to the woman in this video who I think types as a sx-4. I listened to this a while ago, so I don't know if she says anything about her experiences being that instinctual subtype, though:


* *


----------



## Turi

Just did the eclecticenergies test linked above, got this:









5w4 SP.
Interesting.
I relate most to 5w4 and don't know enough about Enneagram to be biasing unintentionally biasing the results.


I've had a couple of people hit me up via PM, and responses to my type me thread that suggest I could be a type 1 though.


What's more likely - people not recognising a clear 5w4 when they see it (pretty much get the same results every test and self-type as 5w4), or the tests being wrong?


I'm a little confused, because I absolutely see type 1 as a possibility.

I like the whole idea of 145 - I think it's a fit, but like.. 1w9, 5w4, 4w5 with the 5w4 as the core one.

Is that a thing?

Someone suggested 145 archetype with 5w6 core and I thought 145 fit great, but 5w4 is closer to me, imo.

Type 1, I can definitely see too.


----------



## star tripper

Paradigm said:


> I relate to that, albeit probably to a slightly lesser degree (but still quite close). I get attached to characters, not so much universes. If stalking a character was a thing, I'd be a stalker for all the ones I've overly-related to or just plain wanted to understand more. Nowadays it's almost the sole reason that I consume media or books, just to feel that... rush of intimacy, I guess? If there's not much of that rush, there's not much chance I'll consume it. Makes me very picky in comparison to everyone else I know.
> 
> My SP/SO mom does come... somewhat close to my level of pickiness, but I think it's more related to her core 6w5-ness.


It's the entire reason I do basically anything as well! If I can't connect to someone, I have no interest. I can't watch a ton of hyper popular shows (Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Stranger Things) because there's no character I connect with. I don't see the point in doing basically anything without it.

Funnily enough, my 6w7 sp/so mom isn't like this. She loves good TV. Huge fan of Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead even though she concedes she hates Walt and like 80% of TWD characters. She doesn't need to perform an autopsy on a character in order to enjoy good TV. If it's compelling, it's compelling.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one. I literally google psychoanalyses of my favorite characters everyday, and I've read an absurd amount about Axl Rose's mental state.

Edit: @Turi Why 5w4 > 5w6 for you out of curiosity? I can see a 4 fix (I'd need to invest some time in you to be definitive), but you superficially come off like a 5w6 to me.

145 isn't a bad read of you based on our limited interactions.


----------



## Paradigm

Turi said:


> Just did the eclecticenergies test linked above, got this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5w4 SP.
> Interesting.
> I relate most to 5w4 and don't know enough about Enneagram to be biasing unintentionally biasing the results.
> I've had a couple of people hit me up via PM, and responses to my type me thread that suggest I could be a type 1 though.
> What's more likely - people not recognising a clear 5w4 when they see it (pretty much get the same results every test and self-type as 5w4), or the tests being wrong?


Usually the tests are wrong. I get nil on types 1 and 7, yet those are the second and third most likely types for me (though type 1 by a far margin). Types I do get high in are 5, 6, and 9 - obviously the 6 fits, but the 5 and 9 don't so much. The reason they're wrong is because tests have absolutely no insight as to why you pick certain answers, and they are biased to whatever the test-maker thinks of the types.

Sorry to say that you _are_ biased enough to influence the results, though maybe not in the way you expect. Basically, everyone has their own self-image, and that self-image isn't always what you actually are. This is the ego protecting itself, in short. You know how it's really hard to get people to accept being an S, let alone an SJ? It's a lot like that, including the incorrect stereotypes of S and many Ennegram types.



> I like the whole idea of 145 - I think it's a fit, but like.. 1w9, 5w4, 4w5 with the 5w4 as the core one.


Please, _please_ don't even start thinking about your tritype. It's common to want to do so, but it's going to make things harder for you. My advice is: focus on your core type and wing, then focus on your instincts, and only when you feel confident in both of those is when you should try to figure out your tritype. Some people focus on instincts before core, which is totally okay too, especially if you find the whole "subtype" thing weird (the idea of SP 1 being very different from SX 1, rather than the idea that the instincts are similar across types).

People bandy around that tritype is the best thing ever, it explains so much, it's the sole reason we relate to more than one type. This is wrong. The vast majority can relate to most types on _some_ level - might not be a high level, but still some. Instead, tritype ultimately makes people confused as to their core type and it prolongs the typing process.


----------



## Paradigm

star tripper said:


> It's the entire reason I do basically anything as well! If I can't connect to someone, I have no interest. I can't watch a ton of hyper popular shows (Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Stranger Things) because there's no character I connect with. I don't see the point in doing basically anything without it.
> Funnily enough, my 6w7 sp/so mom isn't like this. She loves good TV. Huge fan of Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead even though she concedes she hates Walt and like 80% of TWD characters. She doesn't need to perform an autopsy on a character in order to enjoy good TV. If it's compelling, it's compelling.
> I'm really glad I'm not the only one. I literally google psychoanalyses of my favorite characters everyday, and I've read an absurd amount about Axl Rose's mental state.


I rarely get excited about actors/performers themselves... It feels too much like a privacy violation. I don't begrudge others for doing so at all (unless, you know, it's not just reading), but it's just not for me. However, I _do_ appreciate a few performers for their talent, it's just that I don't do that thing where I try to watch everything they've been in.

The horrible thing is, to me, it's not good TV if there's nothing to connect to. I realize the judginess of this, but it's just how I feel. There's a few that I can appreciate the making or producing of, but like GoT or TWD aren't part of them, they're like dressed up soap operas, not well-produced or well-written, depending, shows. Shows like Breaking Bad and House of Cards might be, though, except I can't say that with certainty because they don't appeal to my preferences in general (I'm not really a fan of... "gritty") so I haven't watched any of their episodes. It's not _bad_ for enjoying the soap opera types, but I don't think popularity automatically equals good production.

It's not particularly surprising to me that your 6w7 mom isn't similar - a 6w7 tends to be more generalist than 6w5. My mom is mostly not interested in most TV, and she's pretty critical of things in general. But she still watches a lot more than I do, and doesn't (I think) get connected in the same way. She's just more the type of person who finds value in watching or reading something to the end.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

star tripper said:


> @*Remnants* It's funny you mention being into MUSIC rather than artists. I just had this conversation with my dad (sx) and sister (so). My sister tends to get into entire genres (like metal or k-pop). My dad and I home in on one particular artist (he would go gay for Robin Trower). I had been hypothesizing that this was a sign of instinct. Going back to my Wally West fangirl of a friend, she loves DC and Marvel. I literally just love Dick Grayson and perhaaaaps the Bat family, though I only read their comics if they relate to Dick. I'm kind of a fake comic fan.


I don't really pay attention to genres either... actually, I remember trying to talk about music with someone and they would keep going on about genres and I'm like... huh, I don't really pay attention to that (I mean, I get the basics... like my overall music-taste can be very... something, but it's not the _genre_ I'm into, so it seems weird to me to pay a lot of attention to this. Like it's useful if you want to find more of a thing, but...). More like I get into specific songs. 

(Also reminds me I mentioned this steampunk opera I was into (well, still am) to someone, and they started asking me about other steampunk things, so I tried to explain that I'm not necessarily that into steampunk as a whole, I mean the style can be appealing, but... and they're like "lets just say you're a casual steampunk-fan" lol..... fuck you. I'm guessing that person was a social-dominant, yes. Although that's interesting when I think about stories and such I can be into...)

And I feel like a lot of people focus on the actors/actresses. Like when watching stuff, they'll be on about the celebrities and I just don't find much interest in them, with some exceptions. Like I quite like Repo! The Genetic Opera, and I find it amusing that Paris Hilton plays in it:





Anyway, in general I prefer musicals too, in which case the song is often about a character in the first place, and I like that. The story-aspect makes it more interesting for me too.



> Fetish is definitely a key difference. I don't take an object and draw it into myself. There isn't something in me that I know of that dictates what will get me hooked. I don't have a type either. I've been hooked on Bruce Dickinson, Axl Rose, Ender Wiggin, Edward Elric, Dick Grayson, Will Graham, and Carrie Underwood (among others). I was drawn to them rather than drawing them to me. I flew into their flame so to speak.


I'm not sure if I have a "type".... although I love picking apart what I'm into and why, and I do get into _characters_, but I guess the thing is I'm more self-absorbed in a way (and lately there aren't many characters that I can really get into, outside of my own characters), or more into myself (not in a self-loving way, because I actually tend to dislike myself, but you know). 

So I can get very aroused over something and "lose myself" (or become engulfed~ lol) in it, but at the end of the day it's still more about myself than the object. Like extracting whatever I like to make part of _my _inner world, than to become one with _them_.

Hm, this song came up. Not sure if it's _entirely _right if I pick apart the lyrics (I don't necessarily want to "wind down" my emotions, usually more interested in the opposite, but then I'm not sure what they mean by that), but the feel of it seems right:




(Well, I even quoted the song in my signature, so :laughing: that gives an idea I guess, of the focus on what I can _get from_ them. And it can feel "merge-y" in a way but I still remain separate)

(...Anyway that steampunk opera I mentioned got me thinking. Because I can get infatuated over specific characters (I mean, that seems weird to not get into specific characters at all, but anyway) but there's also the story on the whole, or like the atmosphere... I've seen atmosphere been associated with Sp too, and I wonder, though I didn't become consciously aware of atmosphere before I got older. But I was thinking about my childhood, and this song came to mind:




And it's not like I relate to the characters exactly, but the atmosphere is so haunting so that stayed with me.
The sequel doesn't exactly have that, but I was more aroused by the main character here




Or still am, but it's at least partly about nostalgia... it's not _quite _as exciting now. =P

And I feel like atmosphere=Sp works, because I'm not that focused on the world, like I don't have much attention span for actual world-building, but I like if the environment has a particular feel/vibe, so I try to evoke something like that. Although that's partly Si, I think...

Anyway, yeah I think "fetish" works, even though I'm not that... well. Because there are particular things I can be into independent of the actual character, though of course, I prefer it if I like (or am attracted to, might be more important) the actual character as well. But it seems weird to me to not be focused on them at all, might have already said this...)



> I really think these are differences that need to be fleshed out and can lead to mistypings. Imo your obsession type sounds sp (my friend is so) though I'm totally spitballing.


Well, I'd say that kind of spitballing is fine.



> I do wonder if that is related to our core types. My creepy tendencies definitely read 5 and knowledge vs experience sounds 5 vs 7.
> 
> But I'm just kicking around ideas.


:laughing:

Well, I understand wanting to invade their thoughts, but... yeah. (Think I was talking about wanting to "invade" someone earlier, but then I'm still more focused on my arousal than the closeness or intimacy-aspect.)

(It also occurred to me that my focus might not be that 5ish/head-y, but I'm more focused on instincts right now.)

@*mistakenforstranger*
I was thinking SoSp for Elsa, actually. Like So is the main neurosis she's trying to escape, by using Sp, when she runs off to isolate herself. Yet even as she tries to isolate herself from the world, it still has a hold on her. And lol, speaking of relating, I was thinking earlier about how I "relate" more to Anna, even though she seems like a very... non-withdrawn type of character to relate to. And I don't even think Elsa is a withdrawn type (seems more super-ego), but you know. She seems like a more "withdrawn archetype" to relate to.

And she seems SoSx I think :frustrating: but maybe it's the NFPness I relate to. Idk, relating to stuff can be weird lol. Like before I got into enneagram, I never liked focusing much on what I related to. And even now, it's like... well, I really got into making collages lol, but trying to find pictures I "relate" to is confusing, it works better to make something based on a song I like, for example, than to mak something representing me. Although you could argue that's a kind of "relating", but the focus is different. 

Also, how do you experience your obsessions?

As for being better at using your first instinct, I don't feel good at Sp at all. If anything, it often seems like even most Sp-lasts deal with it better than I do. :frustrating:



star tripper said:


> It's the entire reason I do basically anything as well! If I can't connect to someone, I have no interest. I can't watch a ton of hyper popular shows (Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Stranger Things) because there's no character I connect with. I don't see the point in doing basically anything without it.


Lol, Game of Thrones. That kind of thing sounds like it could be interesting in theory, but when I try watching or reading it, there's a limit to how into it I can truly get, because it feels so... detached in a way. Well, I'm also not fond of all the gore, but even if I wasn't bothered by that, I don't think I would get into it much, especially since I'm not that into the characters either. Although Viserys attractive lol, but he kinda dies early, so...




(Ugh, watching his actual death is too horrible for me, but.... well something I still like so I keep trying to)

...This post is probably a mess now, but PerC won't let me preview, so >_<
(Also why won't you let me include more than five videos PerC, this is so limiting :crying


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Though, the character I relate most to is Stephen Dedalus from James Joyce's novels, and I'm not sure what he would be, except that he isn't social-last. I was thinking of how Molly Bloom is probably a good example of a 2w3 sx/so too. I'd say Leopold Bloom is a 9w1 so/sp. Why is it easier to type characters than myself haha?


Will respond to the rest later, I was just thinking about Ulysses and I agree with these typings (I remember thinking of Molly as a sp 2 but I think it was because I had a weird idea of sp 2 going on that was different from all other sp)

Dedalus seems 4w3 to me, not sure of instinct



> I find this one of the more interesting tests because it doesn't explicitly ask sp, so, or sx-related questions, but then what is the criteria for determining a type + instinct? It seems pretty accurate, though. I like how there's no sx-types in my lineup haha.
> 
> https://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test-2


Wanted to take it, then it was a lot so I decided to go really fast with absolutely my first impression (usually I'm really careful on tests)










All sx except 8 :laughing: 

I've definitely gotten more varied results in the past

I'm curious how it determines it too, maybe it's counting subtype, not core type


----------



## Rose for a Heart

mistakenforstranger said:


> I like your voice too! It's very soothing. It's nice to hear how you sound, makes you more real than just words on a screen haha, like how Daniel Day Lewis in this video says the voice is the fingerprint of the soul (around 3:50). You sound quite similar to the woman in this video who I think types as a sx-4. I listened to this a while ago, so I don't know if she says anything about her experiences being that instinctual subtype, though:
> 
> 
> * *


Haha thank you 

Yeah, I have seen the video before. I think they mostly talked about 4s in general, touched a little bit on the sexual 4. I like those videos, despite them being more heavily spiritual than I would like. It's still a slightly different take on the enneagram than you usually come across and it's refreshing.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

mistakenforstranger said:


>


These videos honestly creep me out  but I watched the 9 video earlier while I was already in a paranoid mood, and felt like I was going to have nightmares. :laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> Shows like Breaking Bad and House of Cards might be, though, except I can't say that with certainty because they don't appeal to my preferences in general (I'm not really a fan of... "gritty") so I haven't watched any of their episodes.


What kind of thing do you tend to prefer?

Oh yes, that's reason why I don't get into actors/artists much (aside from just not being as interesting to me). It does feel like too much of a violation if I were to get into them in the way I like to.


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=57438" target="_blank">Remnants</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> It's funny you mention being into MUSIC rather than artists. I just had this conversation with my dad (sx) and sister (so). My sister tends to get into entire genres (like metal or k-pop). My dad and I home in on one particular artist (he would go gay for Robin Trower). I had been hypothesizing that this was a sign of instinct. Going back to my Wally West fangirl of a friend, she loves DC and Marvel. I literally just love Dick Grayson and perhaaaaps the Bat family, though I only read their comics if they relate to Dick. I'm kind of a fake comic fan.


Hm, for me when it comes to music I tend to get into one artist but I'm usually not very into the artist as a person, if that makes sense, there have been exceptions but I'm rarely tempted to look up personal information about them except for a specific person, it can ruin it in a way...

Or with fictional characters I'm into I'll often purposefully try not to find anything out about the actor, sometimes I want to, but I don't like to break the fourth wall, the actor existing with a life of their own means the character doesn't  and I mean it doesn't really ruin anything when I do find things out but in general it's not something I'm inclined to do

(There have been artists/actors I watched every interview of or whatever though, it's true, and real people I got a stong interest in (Ludwig II or...Ted Bundy lol) but it's not that frequent and, yeah, different ('I'm super into Jack Taylor' doesn't mean I start obsessing over Iain Glen, example of an actor I've avoided learning much about despite deeply loving two of his characters)



> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Nissa Nissa</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> I, too, research references my obsessions make lol. Bruce Dickinson alone has made me read Aleister Crowley books and watch '60s British television and airplane documentaries, not to mention the amount of history and sci-fi books I read cover to cover. But for me, I guess, researching was experiencing? Like the more I knew about them, the closer I felt, like I was one with their soul. I wanted to invade their thoughts and reproduce them. I wanted their brain to swallow mine or my brain to swallow theirs. I wanted to make them my possession.


I'm not sure if I'd phrase it like that, but it's similar

Well, I keep thinking of this song for it, even thought it's not quite right






_I wanna be your sister, wanna be your mother too 
I wanna be wanna be 
Whatever else that touches you _

because I draw the line at wanting to be someone's sister, lol

And I don't think I'd say 'I want them to be my possession', maybe more that I want someone...in me (not...literally) and there can never be enough, or I want the...complete experience, maybe it's that I feel I don't experience things very well in my head, I remember when I was 13 listening to the Music of the Night from Phantom of the Opera and I wasn't familiar with the concept of headphones yet lol but I'd play it as loud as I could and put my head near the speakers and close my eyes, I'd play it again and again, trying to...I don't know, make it real, the song was always so beautiful to me but I still wanted it, didn't have it completely enough, I can feel that way about fictional characters and the like, I'm trying to...well it would sound dumb to say I was trying to make them unfictional, but I'm trying to make them real, or the experience real, or...I mean, that's not exactly why I research references or whatever but that's what I mean by 'experience', hard to explain though



> I do wonder if that is related to our core types. My creepy tendencies definitely read 5 and knowledge vs experience sounds 5 vs 7.


Maybe - and yes!
Think sx-first vs sx-second could be part of it, looking at this part of it, though I'm not sure about that




mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, I think I may look into more from him, but I see what you're saying about it being sx/so, like the song reminds me in a way of Ariel singing "Part of Your World" from The Little Mermaid, if that makes sense, who I think may be a 7w6 sx/so. It's been a while since I've seen it, but she definitely seems sx: Sees Eric and is like,"I must be with him! I'll even sell my voice!"


huh I never thought about it that way
Ariel bugs me lol, never liked her
"Part of Your World" feels maybe so-first? all that emphasis on 'people', and she loved human stuff before Eric, but yeah I can definitely see her character as sx/so



> Oh, that's cool that you think so, gives me more to think about, and actually, I've always been on the fence with so/sp or sp/so. I mainly went with sp/so, because I related wholeheartedly to Chestnut's/Naranjo's conception of the sp-4 being long-suffering, stoic and enduring, but then when I see Riso-Hudson say sp-4s are reckless and seeking danger and such, then maybe I'm not sp-4, because I'm not really that way.


I don't know ((
4 subtypes are really confusing and counter-intuitive to me lol



> To me, the idea that your first instinct is "neurotic" while your second is creative and more easily used, because it's less neurotic, doesn't make that much sense to me. I think if you're neurotic, you'll see a neurotic expression of the first instinct, but I don't see why it automatically has to be "neurotic" for the mere fact that it's your first instinct. If anything, I would think you would be best at your first instinct, and would be much better at using it than someone who has it lower in their stacking. Doesn't that make more sense?


huh, yeah, possibly true...might depend on the individual, really (non-answer as that is)



> Though, I don't really care about food all that much, like when anyone posts pictures of their food on Facebook, I just...:bored: I feel like sp-types would be more likely to do that.


I hate it when people do that but then I hypocritically post a million pictures of cocktails :laughing:

but to me cocktails look cool and, I don't know, glamourous isn't the word, but it feels like posting a picture of a flamingo
I like food but I hate looking/thinking about food



> To clarify, I don't mean the act itself is so-last, but that you'd be _okay_ with doing so, and that it would be with a significant other too makes a difference. That's how I feel with so-lasts, they're okay with being on their own as a "lone-wolf" type, like I think of how Kristoff is in Frozen. It's just him and Sven, and he's happy with that. He's sp/sx.


oooh, that's a great example of a sp/sx, I love him



> Whereas like Elsa isn't social-last, even though she tried to be one for like a day haha. She's sp/so. She isolated herself out of, "I don't want to hurt anyone" (i.e. Social + Self-Preservation motives). I'd imagine introversion plays a role too in wanting to self-isolate too. I can get in my "People suck" mode too sometimes. Though, again, Dwayne here is sp/sx (4w5).



* *

















Remnants said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> I was thinking SoSp for Elsa, actually. Like So is the main neurosis she's trying to escape, by using Sp, when she runs off to isolate herself. Yet even as she tries to isolate herself from the world, it still has a hold on her. And lol, speaking of relating, I was thinking earlier about how I "relate" more to Anna, even though she seems like a very... non-withdrawn type of character to relate to. And I don't even think Elsa is a withdrawn type (seems more super-ego), but you know. She seems like a more "withdrawn archetype" to relate to.


Agree with so/sp (I think 1??)



> As far as your instincts, I'm trying to remember what I said after I saw your video a few months ago, and I think I thought you did seem more sx/so, but I honestly can't remember now. You definitely weren't social-last. I think so/sx or sx/so makes sense.


I think you watched the one where I was in Panama, I was in a real weird place then  but yeah, that seems right



Turi said:


> What's more likely - people not recognising a clear 5w4 when they see it (pretty much get the same results every test and self-type as 5w4), or the tests being wrong?


Tests being wrong is extremely wrong, I type as wildly different, often very wrong things all the time, tests rely on a lot of variables they have no control over
But people could definitely not be recognizing 5w4, it is rare type so I think harder to recognize

You should dive into the types, and see which motivations make most sense to you. Do you relate to 5? How? 1? How?



star tripper said:


> It's the entire reason I do basically anything as well! If I can't connect to someone, I have no interest. I can't watch a ton of hyper popular shows (Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Stranger Things) because there's no character I connect with. I don't see the point in doing basically anything without it.


I think I need characters usually, it's why I could never _really_ get into Doctor Who (I watched the whole series because I had a friend who was really into, finally in the 7th season a character came along who I could connect to :laughing:

And haven't been able to get into Stranger Things for same reason, keep trying, one thing is that I have a philosophy that I'll be able to find something to like if I really put my mind to it, things have an appeal for a reason (but then I realize I shouldn't be wasting my time on the things that I have so little natural connection to, but I'm afraid of missing out on something that will be close to my heart because I was too initially dismissive)

But I love Game of Thrones and it really is partly the universe
Well...there was one character I connected to a lot who died in the fourth season and then it took me several months to keep watching the show because of the lack of characters I was invested in
Actually, it's an interesting show to me because the characters I'm most interested in shift, the first time I watched it I ignored a lot of plotlines but the more I watch it the more all the pieces become interesting for me
But...I found the interest again, I really do get invested in universes, when I find a really good fictional universe (like the Game of Thrones one) I just want to think according to that universe all the time

Multiquote didn't work it's from @Paradigm


> The horrible thing is, to me, it's not good TV if there's nothing to connect to. I realize the judginess of this, but it's just how I feel. There's a few that I can appreciate the making or producing of, but like GoT or TWD aren't part of them,* they're like dressed up soap operas, not well-produced or well-written*, depending, shows.


:sad::sad::sad:

But yeah I can feel that way about some of those shows, been trying to watch actual soap operas lately (need to improve my Spanish and just can't find media I actually like) and I can never connect enough to any part of it, and it does come off just...bad but I also feel guilty for not being interested I guess :/



Remnants said:


> I don't really pay attention to genres either... actually, I remember trying to talk about music with someone and they would keep going on about genres and I'm like... huh, I don't really pay attention to that (I mean, I get the basics... like my overall music-taste can be very... something, but it's not the _genre_ I'm into, so it seems weird to me to pay a lot of attention to this. Like it's useful if you want to find more of a thing, but...). More like I get into specific songs.


Yeah :/

There are genres I definitely prefer but not because of the genre, more likely to pick up a fantasy than novel than true crime, but it's not like...yeah



> (Also reminds me I mentioned this steampunk opera I was into (well, still am) to someone, and they started asking me about other steampunk things, so I tried to explain that I'm not necessarily that into steampunk as a whole, I mean the style can be appealing, but... and they're like "lets just say you're a casual steampunk-fan" lol..... fuck you. I'm guessing that person was a social-dominant, yes. Although that's interesting when I think about stories and such I can be into...)



That's annoying lol



> And I feel like a lot of people focus on the actors/actresses. Like when watching stuff, they'll be on about the celebrities and I just don't find much interest in them, with some exceptions. Like I quite like Repo! The Genetic Opera, and I find it amusing that Paris Hilton plays in it:


Oh tbh I'm one of those people 'that's the guy from x!', my dad always did that and I thought it was both annoying and cool, now that I have enough media knowledge to notice the same I feel like the coolest person in the world, I never used to know anything about anything))

Or sometimes I'm just really excited to see a familiar face, you brought up Viserys and if I saw Viserys in something else I would never stop talking about it :/



> Lol, Game of Thrones. That kind of thing sounds like it could be interesting in theory, but when I try watching or reading it, there's a limit to how into it I can truly get, because it feels so... detached in a way. Well, I'm also not fond of all the gore, but even if I wasn't bothered by that, I don't think I would get into it much, especially since I'm not that into the characters either. Although Viserys attractive lol, but he kinda dies early, so...


Viserys :skeleton:

Anyways yeah, I don't feel detached from GoT, it's one of those shows that like, reminded me of a million things the minute I started watching, it really is more the universe I guess, though I love many of the characters










:lovekitty::lovekitty:


----------



## Dangerose

I'm very proud of myself for responding to all that

Well, about genre, I don't think I think in genre but it's also like...well, for example, I'm a very medieval person, I discussed my early love of Arthurian legend, tbh get some castles and lute music and I'm already halfway won, recently got into this band:






There was 0 chance of me not liking this band, any fool could have guessed this would be exactly my jam, guess I shouldn't act so high-and-mighty about it


----------



## Turi

star tripper said:


> Edit: @Turi Why 5w4 > 5w6 for you out of curiosity? I can see a 4 fix (I'd need to invest some time in you to be definitive), but you superficially come off like a 5w6 to me.
> 
> 145 isn't a bad read of you based on our limited interactions.


Well I haven't really looked into it, but the 5w4 is a better fit mostly because well, 4s are supposedly the artistic/emo kind of types, yeah?
And that's basically me, after being a 5.

I'm more of the broody kind of musician type, than the analytical skeptic, IRL.

Also, I just read these:



> Five With a 4 Wing
> The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them. When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliché of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing. Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.





> Five With a 6 Wing
> The 6 wing brings an orientation to detail and technical knowledge, along with the tendency to think in logical sequence. Especially intellectual, far more analytical than Fives with a 4 wing. Can be loyal friends, offering strong behind-the-scenes support. Kind, patient teachers, skillful experts. May have a sense of mission and work hard. Sometimes project an aura of sensitive nerdiness and have clumsy social skills. When defensive, they can be unnerved by the expectations of others. May like people more but avoid them more. Especially sensitive to social indebtedness. Could have trouble saying "thank you." Fear of taking action, develop "information addiction" instead. Ask lots of questions but don't get around to the decision at hand. When more entranced, they develop a suspicious scrutiny of other people's motives but can also be blind followers. Misanthropic and Scrooge-like when defensive. More able to keep their feelings cut off in a constant way. Can be cold, skeptical, ironic, and disassociated. A Five's 6 wing can be phobic or counterphobic. Counterphobic 6 wing brings courage and antiauthoritarian attitudes. When defensive they may mock authority, or angrily tell others off. Tend to "push the envelope," experiment, find what the limits are.


..they're both highly accurate, both could easily be me, except I disagree with the first line of the 5w6 section - I'm not particularly detail oriented, I'm more of an end-results kind of guy. Not so much the "how" which is where I feel details come into play.

I just feel like the 5w4 is exactly me whereas 5w6 is like 90% me.
I do need to do some research though.


----------



## Krayfish

@Turi I can see either 5w6 or 5w4 for you (though the 6 wing would kind of explain why people thought you were INTJ/ISTP), but have you considered sp/sx rather than sx/sp? From what I've read from you thus far, you don't come across as a sx dom (though I could easily be missing something important) .


----------



## Darkbloom

Distortions said:


> Anyway, context. Sometimes it can make things more interesting if I have certain associations around it to build on. Or like for example, as a child I liked Romeo and Juliet-type of stories, which plays on some sort of social dynamic to create some romantic conflict or drama. In that case it feels like it's more for the sake of something Sx-y still, but it involves a social awareness, so... That doesn't feel social-blind.
> 
> (And lol, food is something I wish I wasn't obsessed with)


Can relate in some ways, but like...I don't know, don't think it has to be So, think you're getting into things that are more complicated than the thing I meant 


Not really related but often fantasize about being with someone and them telling me about how they don't like their friends, and other people who aren't me :tongue: , and me leaving everything behind to be with them, wondering if that has an element of So since there is context? But it's not a very complex context, just another way to say I love you and then have sex, but it feels like the kind of thing that could maybe be So if there was more emphasis on other things or more context around both of us separately?


Would respond to some other things and thank posts but I don't feel like it 
(gonna thank posts at least on a different day, tired and think I'm gonna log out today, have to study tomorrow)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> huh I never thought about it that way
> Ariel bugs me lol, never liked her
> "Part of Your World" feels maybe so-first? all that emphasis on 'people', and she loved human stuff before Eric, but yeah I can definitely see her character as sx/so


Well, I thought she fit Sx 7 pretty well, but when I watched it again I will say the line seems more blurry. Like with Eric, it seems like a big reason she fell for him was because of what he represented, so that's maybe more So? I'm not sure...
(Ariel used to annoy me tbh, but I like that song)



> I don't know ((
> 4 subtypes are really confusing and counter-intuitive to me lol


I still don't really get the Sp 4 lmao

Btw, think I got So 4 on that eclectic energies test @*mistakenforstranger*
(I can be pretty moody, so think that's the main reason I get 4)



> oooh, that's a great example of a sp/sx, I love him


Lol, why



> Agree with so/sp (I think 1??)


That'd be my first guess yes.



> I think I need characters usually, it's why I could never _really_ get into Doctor Who (I watched the whole series because I had a friend who was really into, finally in the 7th season a character came along who I could connect to :laughing:


Lol, I actually liked the ninth doctor. Of course, he was only there for 1 season...

And I thought Ten was cute, but he also feels so superficial in a way, so he frustrates me lol. 

(Also like Donna, but more in a... finding her awesome way. So I mean, I can appreciate characters in different ways, but...)

But overall I don't really like Doctor Who much, even though I thought the premise sounded really neat at first.



> And haven't been able to get into Stranger Things for same reason, keep trying, one thing is that I have a philosophy that I'll be able to find something to like if I really put my mind to it, things have an appeal for a reason (but then I realize I shouldn't be wasting my time on the things that I have so little natural connection to, but I'm afraid of missing out on something that will be close to my heart because I was too initially dismissive)


I can struggle to get into a lot of things, though in the case of Stranger Things, it was... well, I get scared very easily, so that keeps me from getting bored while watching that show (at least the first season). Horror is fun like that. So that is one genre I can get into (if I feel like getting triggered ) 

And can relate to fear of missing out, and trying to find things I like >_< feel like I have more to say related to this... well, when I get depressed for example, that can make it harder to get into things, so then I'm like... well, I need trying to find other ways of appreciating things. And depending on my state of mind, it can make things really different and it can get confusing.



> There are genres I definitely prefer but not because of the genre, more likely to pick up a fantasy than novel than true crime, but it's not like...yeah


True. I mean, I generally prefer fantasy, or at least stories with fantastic elements, because I think that makes things more interesting than if it's too... real world-y.

Actually it's interesting. I was thinking about this earlier how I always like the idea of magical worlds and stuff, but in the end what is most interesting is stuff like character and relationship development. And you don't _need _magic for any of that to happen. But still... So yes, in a way genre can matter if only because certain types of backdrops are more appealing to me (with fantasy, I think it's also because it feels more... romantic? tbh. Because Sci-Fi can be interesting as well, but doesn't appeal as much, on like an aesthetic level)

And so... there can be a lot of factors to things I like. I can also get like, hooked on one specific scene for example that I'll rewatch (or replay in my head a lot), but that reminds me of this socionics dichotomy though it's been a while. 



> Or sometimes I'm just really excited to see a familiar face, you brought up Viserys and if I saw Viserys in something else I would never stop talking about it :/


Hm, now I wonder how I would react to it. Tbh I might off-put by it, as irrational as that is.



> Anyways yeah, I don't feel detached from GoT, it's one of those shows that like, reminded me of a million things the minute I started watching, it really is more the universe I guess, though I love many of the characters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lovekitty::lovekitty:


:')

Also, with the music thing, it can actually be really disappointing when I read what the artist has to say about their music and of course it's about something in their life or something that's not actually as interesting. So then it seems almost preferable to leave some mystery, but..... (that's like living by an "ignorance is bliss"-philosophy, and my super-ego is like, that's bad, gotta be open to the facts even if it's boring as fuck)



Signorina Misteriosa said:


> Can relate in some ways, but like...I don't know, don't think it has to be So, think you're getting into things that are more complicated than the thing I meant


Yeah, it just gets me thinking. Like I can spend all day thinking about this stuff, and there's a lot of elements involved in, well, arousal and such.



> Not really related but often fantasize about being with someone and them telling me about how they don't like their friends, and other people who aren't me :tongue: , and me leaving everything behind to be with them, wondering if that has an element of So since there is context? But it's not a very complex context, just another way to say I love you and then have sex, but it feels like the kind of thing that could maybe be So if there was more emphasis on other things or more context around both of us separately?


Yeah


----------



## Dangerose

edit: aaand deleting


----------



## Paradigm

Remnants said:


> What kind of thing do you tend to prefer?


Eh, it's hard for me to define. I'm all over the place. Someone else can try to define it, though; I wouldn't mind.

General:

* *




Star Trek (TNG-ENT era)
Buffy / Angel / Firefly
Bones (dropped after the only likeable intern [IMO] left, S7 I think?)
Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt
Dark Matter
The Orville
Jessica Jones
Futurama
Grace and Frankie
Doctor Who (again, dropped sometime after 12 came on) (I really loved 9, too, btw)
Friends
Archer
A few anime: Usagi Drop, Natsume Yuujinchou, No. 6, Hourou Musuko, some others




Some guilty pleasures:

* *




New Girl
Supergirl
Charmed (well, used to be)
iZombie
Switched at Birth
Gilmore Girls
Grey's Anatomy (and yet again, dropped after the Yang thing)
The Worst Witch (it's a dumb British show, lol)




I also seem to have a weird-ass fondness for friendly competition shows, most notably The Great British Baking Show. And I really enjoy cultural documentaries, along with nature ones, but those aren't really suited for listing.

(Oh, and none of this is listed in any particular order.)

Edit: I have, like any other person with TV, watched some shows I didn't particularly enjoy but watched anyway. The most recent ones would probably be... Sherlock, Stranger Things S1, 3%. And I've, of course, tried several shows, like Nurse Jackie (so close to enjoying that one), Weeds, Arrested Development, that blind Marvel guy... This list could go on forever.
Edit2: Oh and I'm watching ST: Discovery and hating every minute of it. It's too actiony for ST, and it _looks_ nothing like ST, and it has too little philosophy for ST


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> (I really loved 9, too, btw)


:fall:
And I see.

(I actually watched through all of Buffy not so long ago. Now I regret never watching it when I was younger, because I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more back then. Still liked it now, but...)


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> Edit2: Oh and I'm watching ST: Discovery and hating every minute of it. It's too actiony for ST, and it _looks_ nothing like ST, and it has too little philosophy for ST


Is it worse than Enterprise, or were you okay with Enterprise?


----------



## star tripper

Turi said:


> Well I haven't really looked into it, but the 5w4 is a better fit mostly because well, 4s are supposedly the artistic/emo kind of types, yeah?
> And that's basically me, after being a 5.
> 
> I'm more of the broody kind of musician type, than the analytical skeptic, IRL.
> 
> Also, I just read these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..they're both highly accurate, both could easily be me, except I disagree with the first line of the 5w6 section - I'm not particularly detail oriented, I'm more of an end-results kind of guy. Not so much the "how" which is where I feel details come into play.
> 
> I just feel like the 5w4 is exactly me whereas 5w6 is like 90% me.
> I do need to do some research though.


Blech. Shit information imo. Everyone who's ever interacted with me for ten seconds would peg me artistic > scientific.

I don't have time to go into detail (y'all Imma reply to the obsession thing soon), but just as a quick preview: w6s are concerned with making sense of external information and w4s internal.

Superficially, your constant challenging of definitions on this forum and trying to flesh out what's truth is very w6. A w4 directs that sort of challenging and questioning at themselves. We discussed this a bit in this thread I think. I tend to use Dexter as an avatar for 5w4 and L as an avatar for 5w6.


----------



## Turi

star tripper said:


> Blech. Shit information imo. Everyone who's ever interacted with me for ten seconds would peg me artistic > scientific.
> 
> I don't have time to go into detail (y'all Imma reply to the obsession thing soon), but just as a quick preview: w6s are concerned with making sense of external information and w4s internal.
> 
> Superficially, your constant challenging of definitions on this forum and trying to flesh out what's truth is very w6. A w4 directs that sort of challenging and questioning at themselves. We discussed this a bit in this thread I think. I tend to use Dexter as an avatar for 5w4 and L as an avatar for 5w6.


This is interesting. 
I don't relate to Dexter in many ways.
L, I relate to in practically every way.

If you have nothing else to do, I made a video type me in the "what's my Enneagram type?" section here.
I've had a couple of people tell me I more closely resemble a type 1.


----------



## Paradigm

Remnants said:


> (I actually watched through all of Buffy not so long ago. Now I regret never watching it when I was younger, because I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more back then. Still liked it now, but...)


Yeah, I'm considering rewatching both series, but having a hard time actually doing it. I think it's definitely a great show for someone in their early 20s, as it hits some heavy subjects very succinctly. Being in my late 20s, I still appreciate it a lot, but it seems a bit... idk, like a "learning experience." It might just be because I've seen it like three times before, though.

The funny thing is, I related a lot to Willow when I first watched it, but as I grow older I'm relating a lot more to Buffy herself. I think Buffy, as a character, highly overplays the whole woe-is-me, "I wanna be normal" thing, especially the first five seasons(?)... But the "responsible outcast" trope, and especially the depression in the last couple seasons, is more me now. In hindsight, relating to Willow was very superficial, based more on the "girl next door," "socially awkward," "techy" tropes, which... I'm not sure Willow actually _was_ the first two to begin with, anyway. At least, not realistically.


----------



## Paradigm

Immolate said:


> Is it worse than Enterprise, or were you okay with Enterprise?


I didn't like Enterprise the first time I watched it. Then I guess it grew on me, some. I think it has a lot of faults, but I don't think it's as bad as people say (or used to say) it is. And IIRC it at least attempted to maintain continuity with - and the feel of - the ST universe, plus it had decent amounts of philosophy in it. Those are wins in my book.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Paradigm*
Makes sense. Actually, I was depressed at the time of watching it (I believe that's why I ended up watching it in the first place, because binging on TV shows I never got around to seeing before is one way of getting through the days), so I could get into depressed!Buffy.
--


star tripper said:


> Blech. Shit information imo. Everyone who's ever interacted with me for ten seconds would peg me artistic > scientific.
> 
> I don't have time to go into detail (y'all Imma reply to the obsession thing soon), but just as a quick preview: w6s are concerned with making sense of external information and w4s internal.
> 
> Superficially, your constant challenging of definitions on this forum and trying to flesh out what's truth is very w6. A w4 directs that sort of challenging and questioning at themselves. We discussed this a bit in this thread I think. I tend to use Dexter as an avatar for 5w4 and L as an avatar for 5w6.


Ooh, that's an interesting take on the variants (though I never watched Dexter). The artistic vs scientific-thing gets too behavioral to really get the types.


----------



## Dangerose

Remnants said:


> Lol, why


idk he's attractive to me lol
The part when he says 'she's engaged to another man!' like he's explaining it to the snowman but the way that pains him in his voice shows through really gets me :lovekitty:

One of the most attractive Disney men for me, I liked Philip too and maybe...Aladdin?



> Lol, I actually liked the ninth doctor. Of course, he was only there for 1 season...


I did like him, actually!
But, idk, there was still something that wasn't quite there for me

I really liked Clara, she was incredibly relatable to me, and then she made 11 really likable to me, he wasn't that interesting of a character for me before but I liked their chemistry and that made me like him, related to him too it turned out










And then I liked 12 (I had a crush on Peter Capaldi when I was little lol, he was in this movie:










so...obvious sex appeal? XD

And I thought 12 and Clara had good chemistry too, but then Netflix stopped doing Doctor Who and it turned out I didn't care that much



> And I thought Ten was cute, but he also feels so superficial in a way, so he frustrates me lol.
> 
> (Also like Donna, but more in a... finding her awesome way. So I mean, I can appreciate characters in different ways, but...)


Donna was all right, Ten annoyed me a bit somehow though



> I can struggle to get into a lot of things, though in the case of Stranger Things, it was... well, I get scared very easily, so that keeps me from getting bored while watching that show (at least the first season). Horror is fun like that. So that is one genre I can get into (if I feel like getting triggered )


Ugh I should try to watch it again
I liked Supernatural for instance, though I regret having ever seen certain episodes at times ahahaha



> And can relate to fear of missing out, and trying to find things I like >_< feel like I have more to say related to this... well, when I get depressed for example, that can make it harder to get into things, so then I'm like... well, I need trying to find other ways of appreciating things. And depending on my state of mind, it can make things really different and it can get confusing.


Yeah, really true



> Actually it's interesting. I was thinking about this earlier how I always like the idea of magical worlds and stuff, but in the end what is most interesting is stuff like character and relationship development. And you don't _need _magic for any of that to happen. But still... So yes, in a way genre can matter if only because certain types of backdrops are more appealing to me (with fantasy, I think it's also because it feels more... romantic? tbh. Because Sci-Fi can be interesting as well, but doesn't appeal as much, on like an aesthetic level)


Yeah, pretty much how I feel


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> I didn't like Enterprise the first time I watched it. Then I guess it grew on me, some. I think it has a lot of faults, but I don't think it's as bad as people say (or used to say) it is. And IIRC it at least attempted to maintain continuity with - and the feel of - the ST universe, plus it had decent amounts of philosophy in it. Those are wins in my book.


Stigma is the only episode I remember with any kind of clarity, in part because I liked what it was trying to say. But overall it just didn't do it for me, and I'm not sure that I can sit through it a second time. I know a lot of people take issue with Voyager, for example, but I was at least drawn to a few of the key characters (I'm mostly talking about Janeway here).


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> idk he's attractive to me lol
> The part when he says 'she's engaged to another man!' like he's explaining it to the snowman but the way that pains him in his voice shows through really gets me :lovekitty:
> 
> One of the most attractive Disney men for me, I liked Philip too and maybe...Aladdin?


Lol, he doesn't do it for me. But then I like Hans, so clearly my taste in men is flawless. 

(Also Aladdin, but... I'd be surprised if I didn't mention this already?)



> I did like him, actually!
> But, idk, there was still something that wasn't quite there for me
> 
> I really liked Clara, she was incredibly relatable to me, and then she made 11 really likable to me, he wasn't that interesting of a character for me before but I liked their chemistry and that made me like him, related to him too it turned out


I never got to that part. :frustrating: I've been trying to, but you know...
(And I didn't like Amy much, or Emilia? Don't remember, but I found her so immature and idk, so it's possible I might like Clara more.)

Actually I was rewatching it not so long ago, and found that there's a lot that feels so... meaningless to get through, compared to the stuff I do like. It has its moments, though. Like I almost forgot about this episode, but this is nice:





(Actually I liked Amy more this time, or at least... well, compared to Rose. But that's not saying much tbh.)



> Ugh I should try to watch it again
> I liked Supernatural for instance, though I regret having ever seen certain episodes at times ahahaha


Well, it's not that amazing tbh.
And I never got around to watching Supernatural... now I'm curious what kind of episodes those were. >_>

@*Paradigm*
Also, about Buffy. When I was younger I don't think I would have related to the wish for being normal at all, like it seemed like a made-up concern for me. But I get it more now, in a way. And I heard this song before seeing the show, but after watching it now makes me think of Buffy.




Which gives me feels.


----------



## Dangerose

K, I do have some genre comments:

Dramas are really hard for me to watch in general, there's just like...a lot of down time and I can only follow plot if I truly care about characters

I always really want to like period dramas because I like watching things that I can feel fancy as I watch :laughing: but they're just as challenging as things like Breaking Bad, just never...that engaging to me, and I don't like long action sequences

I like sitcoms mostly, because I can really get to know the characters, and I like to laugh (I mean, on airplaines I'll watch the Big Bang Theory even though it makes me want to die because it's at least funny at points)

Nature documentaries - can't do it, my parents loooved nature documentaries as a kid, have semi-good memories of watching Life on Earth on weekends, my dad liked to play it during lunch, but it was still boring, the ones without David Attenborough were even worse

When I watch documentaries it's generally because I want to learn something or feel like I'm being useful lol, and nature documentaries don't fulfill that requirement to me so I would rather dig my eyes out with a spoon than see a close shot of an insect hopping around

watched all those castle things on Netflix and they made me feel really smart
But I remember drinking copiously to get through them, and no one wants to pick up alcoholism because they tried to watch too many documentaries

I mean, some documentaries can interest me, been downloading a bunch of ones I found on YouTube to watch at home since I can't get proper Internet

Can enjoy them but every time I get through them I feel like the coolest person to have ever existed and I want to message everyone I know and casually mention that I just watched a documentary :laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Nissa Nissa*
Lol, I hate Big Bang Theory

(I could probably be saying more about genres too, just... yeah)

Edit: Oh yeah, another thing about celebrities, another thing that comes to mind is Taylor Swift. Like tbh I was never into her music (or her as a person), but when I heard Blank Space, I liked that song, and found it interesting that she made a song like that, which added to my appreciation


----------



## Dangerose

Remnants said:


> Lol, he doesn't do it for me. But then I like Hans, so clearly my taste in men is flawless.
> 
> (Also Aladdin, but... I'd be surprised if I didn't mention this already?)


Don't think you did but 


> I never got to that part. :frustrating: I've been trying to, but you know...
> (And I didn't like Amy much, or Emilia? Don't remember, but I found her so immature and idk, so it's possible I might like Clara more.)


Hated Amy

I'd rank companions:

Clara: 10/10
Rory: 8/10
Rose: 7/19
Mickey: 7/10
Donna: 6/19
Martha: 5/10
Amy: 2/10

Or something, a lot of characters on that show are just boring to me



> Actually I was rewatching it not so long ago, and found that there's a lot that feels so... meaningless to get through, compared to the stuff I do like. It has its moments, though. Like I almost forgot about this episode, but this is nice:


Yeah

My friend loved this episode, it was...I'm not sure, didn't do it for me
There are some nice parts is the thing but they're so few and far between, for me

Like this line for instance:












> Well, it's not that amazing tbh.
> And I never got around to watching Supernatural... now I'm curious what kind of episodes those were. >_>


Hm, think I recommend it, I liked it for Dean and the relationship between the brothers mostly, it had good atmosphere too, in the first few seasons (I think atmosphere does play a pretty large part in how much I enjoy things)

Ones that stood out to me was one with a killer clown :sad: one with a killer little girl ghost :sad: and one with killer pagan god scarecrow :sad:

It was specific context and set-up that creeped me out though I think

Like ugh I'm thinking about that little girl one and :sad:

Cheesy set-up I guess but the way it was revealed and such just...yeah

Then again, there was an episode of Frasier where Frasier thought he'd solved a murder and that a trained monkey had killed a girl, scares me as much as those episodes XD:laughing:


----------



## Shadow Tag

Immolate said:


> @Shadow Tag You're back


Hello!! How've you been?



> What's this, though.


A hot take on a possible typing.  I'm rusty on this stuff, and your avatar kind of reminded me of 4 sp/sx and, IIRC, I thought that you may be a 5 back in the day, so I kind of combined the two. Sorry if that was underwhelming.


----------



## Dangerose

@Shadow Tag thanks, that's about where I'm at too

And I've been great, glad to hear things are going well for you!

__________________________
@Rose for a Heart



> Well, I think a Social dom would be aware regardless of how they are contributing, or fitting into the larger scheme of things. Or not fitting in, whatever the case may be. This is not be misread as "Socials just want to fit in," but that they have shame around not being able to belong or contribute and be a part of something bigger than themselves, so that they can feel secure. And so, the genre was merely an example of the lack of this very quality, instead of a definitive no for Social dom, for her.


No, I get what you mean, that makes sense

Though I'm not sure how that necessarily shows up

Like, Taylor Swift for instance (sorry for always bringing her up but she's such an obvious example of a social-dominant and I feel passing familiar with her music), suddenly she has some obviously social songs, but I don't really think her songs sound like they have much of a focus on contributing to a group, cause, etc., it's all personal (relationships, vendettas, etc)

There's like: 






But it's so odd and vague that I have no idea what she's actually singing about, 'these things will change', no clue who she's aligning herself with, actually I enjoy this song but it kinda sounds like she wrote it to be a generically inspiring song that could apply to anything, doesn't feel...personal (maybe it is, I don't know her)



> Yeah, that's why it's popular. Personally, not on top of my favorites list. I gloss over her more Soc-infused songs, because I am not into it. Or if the element is present, it doesn't stand out as that's not what draws me in; it's her 4-ness that does.


Yeah, that's a thing I notice happening when I'm typing people that I gloss over the things that bore me or don't draw me and focus on the parts I relate to so then I think I probably end up typing them closer to my type

well, I gloss over social things too, if no one tells me why I'm social-first I'm changing my type; it's making my arguments fall apart 

Like I'm still thinking about Mika's type and I feel like that might be blurring my judgement, like he has all these social songs I'm just not interested in so I don't listen to them that frequently, or I hear a social lyric and I twist it to mean something more sx or something, or I'm just not focused on the lyrics when listening, in my head for my own enjoyment, so my experience of him (or maybe any other artist) becomes more sx-ish or whatever, other type things or not type-things, I listen to music to relate and think about my own feelings etc so yeah

(Mika I think there's strong possibility he IS sx/so, kinda depends on what the stackings are supposed to look like)

Notice it happening with Marina and the Diamonds for example, maybe not to make the music more sx because she does a really good job of blocking off possibilities for that but less...what it is



> I think only that one, and Mrs. Potato Head, (and perhaps Mad Hatter somewhat) are blatantly Social doms. You could argue Pity Party is somewhat that too, but I didn't see her album as being overshadowed by Social criticism/issues; just her delving into the life of a character, and all the pain and trauma she has gone through.


Yeah, probably, it's very 4ish
As a person I think she might be social but some of her songs are really sx too (like Soap!), I'm not sure, some of them have kinda nebulous meanings to me, at least I don't get them



> An important distinction to make would be that Sx/So are going to pour themselves totally and passionately into one or two social area/cause they care to bring light to, while So/Sx would be more diffusedly focused on Social atmosphere around them, using their secondary Sx to connect with some or several of them.


That sounds like it could be right, remember @star tripper talking about this (sorry for gratuitous mention but I'm hoping you'll have wise insight on this because it piqued my interest the first time)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> Notice it happening with Marina and the Diamonds for example, maybe not to make the music more sx because she does a really good job of blocking off possibilities for that but less...what it is


What about




Although I preferred these, but Radioactive is probably the most blatantly Sx-y.








This also comes to mind, though she sings about So-ish stuff, it has this... nice tension to it =P




(Of course, at times it's possible I'm projecting, or... reading something more "Sx" in something than it actually is. Doesn't seem entirely possible to be objective about this stuff)


----------



## Dangerose

edit: finally remembered to edit a long embarrassing post out in time


----------



## Paradigm

Turi said:


> @Paradigm - yeah, the site is playing up pretty bad at the moment. Understandable. Ignore the alteration of my type here - I just like to try on different hats to develop an understanding of the type and their functions. It's kind of how I learn, I guess. I don't believe myself to be anything but an INFJ.


Okay, I can understand that method; I'm certainly more open to it since you explained it  I'm just wondering though... I like helping people who seem into it and will help themselves, which you do, and you seem to really enjoy the learning aspect which is awesome! Idk how to properly say/ask this, but I'm curious how serious you are about exploring different E-types? Or, like, I do feel like you _are _open to considering others, but what kind of info or discovery would it take you to change types? (I do see you put on an SO/SP label which is interesting  )

I guess that, while I'm willing to being wrong in that you are a 5w4 after all (vs 5w6, 6w5, 1w9 [IMO]), I'd feel a bit... "used" if you're just going to be constantly falling back to your first type choice no matter what I put forth? Like I said, I like helping, and I'm not going to force a type upon you, and I would happily concede to 5w4 if I see any evidence of such... But helping / conversing in general takes a lot of my energy - which again I don't mind so much if it's fruitful - so I'm just wary of using up that energy on someone who might not wholly consider it. IMO, there's "considering" and then there's "considering in word only."

(And believe me, as a 6 / as a human, I was, am, guilty of these behaviors. I get why people do it, and I get why it's annoying. I'm not trying to say it's bad, as such, just that I'm not a paragon of patience in the least, and I have very limited baseline social energy - both of which are my faults rather than yours, but I'd just like to know what direction this is likely to head in from your POV.)


----------



## Turi

@Paradigm - I'm completely open to different E-types, just as I am with MBTI types (I realise I phrased my statement re INFJ rather strongly but I'm not actually sold on anything, completely).

I treat all information seriously and seek to find the actual truth, I don't want to be running around as some mistyped dickhead. I want my E-types (and mbti type) to be accurate, regardless of any personal bias and favourites.

I think this is evidenced by the fact I've shifted my instinctual preferences after learning more about them - I'm definitely not someone who just dismisses assistance in favour of personal bias or ignorance.

The kind of information it would take to change my Enneagram type would be logical reasoning - i.e, "I think you're a 6, where you think you're a 4, and here's why", if it's supported by additional readings i.e book suggestions etc, then I would lean towards it even more - IOW I like to be given something to research and dive deeper into as well, sort of like.. reading through citations, I guess, lol.

It's completely up to you - I don't want you to feel forced - I'm just saying, I would consider what you have to say wholeheartedly and go the extra step and study any additional resources you might provide as well to gain a deeper understanding of your perspective.


----------



## Dangerose

@Turi can you talk about what you relate to about type 5?

For example: stockpiling information, being a power type (needing to have a corner on something), feeling smaller than the world, etc?


----------



## Darkbloom

I don't know why 4 feels so wrong for me, it's so strange, it should feel more right than most types but it feels like I'm one of those people who mistype as 4 
Might be just because I'm used to 4 being wrong for me but idk

(sorry for not responding to things, just feeling so exhausted, feels like I'm dying every time I try to concentrate)


__________ @Shadow Tag thanks, doing mostly well, I'm glad you're back!:cupcake:
And I'm fine with 9 if you are, but just wanted to say I think I always thought 3 was a possibility (maybe back when you/some people were considering 2? 2 didn't really feel right), so it's not just now that you mentioned it, from what I remember you were always rather hardworking and goal oriented and such but 9's (and others) can sometimes be like that so...

Not sure about instincts, think so first but it might be just because of social 9.


----------



## Paradigm

Turi said:


> @Paradigm - I'm completely open to different E-types, just as I am with MBTI types (I realise I phrased my statement re INFJ rather strongly but I'm not actually sold on anything, completely).
> I treat all information seriously and seek to find the actual truth, I don't want to be running around as some mistyped dickhead. I want my E-types (and mbti type) to be accurate, regardless of any personal bias and favourites.
> I think this is evidenced by the fact I've shifted my instinctual preferences after learning more about them - I'm definitely not someone who just dismisses assistance in favour of personal bias or ignorance.
> The kind of information it would take to change my Enneagram type would be logical reasoning - i.e, "I think you're a 6, where you think you're a 4, and here's why", if it's supported by additional readings i.e book suggestions etc, then I would lean towards it even more - IOW I like to be given something to research and dive deeper into as well, sort of like.. reading through citations, I guess, lol.
> It's completely up to you - I don't want you to feel forced - I'm just saying, I would consider what you have to say wholeheartedly and go the extra step and study any additional resources you might provide as well to gain a deeper understanding of your perspective.


Okay, that's good to know :smile: Thank you. I'll try to get back to you in detail this week, then!

Can't really promise on giving you citations, as such, more than I have in the last post - I'm too poor to (legally) own too many books, and it's probably been four years since I bothered with them in detail, anyway - but I'll definitely try to help.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Signorina Misteriosa
Well, your... focus and such, does seem different from what I've seen of other 4s. I don't know if that means you _can't _be a 4, though, but I imagine it's part of what creates the dissonance.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

SheWolf said:


> Well, I haven't been on this site at all in ages...After quite some time, I've come to type at 4w3-6-1 sx/so.


Well, I posted this to you over a year ago (It was around July 2016 in two of your typing threads, if you must know. Wow, I already knew that long ago!? h when everyone else said otherwise...



mistakenforstranger said:


> *I'm not sure why anyone hasn't said core-4 for @SheWolf . In the OP, she expresses issues with envy, fears of rejection, and the way you frame it all sounds very "image"-triad issues, as if you're seeing how other people view you and what that says about you, but your feelings are always coming from within (i.e. self-referencing of Type 4).* If you're relating to 2, it might be signs of 4's arrow to 2. *I thought you were typing as a 4w3 when you first started on here, and were very sure in seeing yourself as that type. I see no reason to doubt that, honestly. I can see the 6-fix, though.* Have you considered 9 in your tri-type? And maybe this is weird to say, but others were saying how you are similar to I think it was, @Phoenix Virtue , but I would say you seem more like @Animal in how you express yourself.





mistakenforstranger said:


> I can see how she may be 6w7 too, but why has the story changed so much that she now relates to 6-themes far more than 4? *If I'm being honest, I would say she is more likely 4w3, which was far more apparent in the first thread she started recently in asking for help on her type.* *It was troublesome to me that even when she was still expressing very recognizable 4 issues in her OP, such as envy, everyone in the thread was saying they see her as a 6w7 without even the slightest nod to how what she was saying was related in any way to Type 4.*





mistakenforstranger said:


> By that logic, you can be whichever type suits you at the time. *Those core themes that you revolve around don't change, and perhaps one isn't aware of them, but I agree that for @SheWolf it's 4/6 themes.* From my view, she's changed her language/vocabulary about what she relates to, or realized a part of her self that she didn't fully understand before, *but even so, she's still expressing herself now as a 4 in themes/presentation.* Ultimately, though, I do believe it's up to her (or anyone) to decide themselves on their own type.


Haha, I even picked up on a possible 1-fix! 



mistakenforstranger said:


> *It's might be indicating arrow to 1, or 1-fix ("I really don't trust people to do it correctly").* I'm having a hard time seeing a phobic 6 say, "I don't put my faith in any system or anything," so it's possibly 6-counterphobia or 4-individualism. Sx/Sp seems right for your instincts!


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@mistakenforstranger
Think you were still wrong about the instincts though :tongue:


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Nissa Nissa I see you have been considering SX first for some time, if you don't mind me bringing this up on here, could you elaborate on why SX over SO for you?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Remnants said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> Think you were still wrong about the instincts though :tongue:


...or am I? :shocked:


----------



## Turi

mistakenforstranger said:


> *dashboard song*


Dashboard, hell yeah - I saw them live in Brisbane in September - man, way too good.
It was an absolute blast seeing one of my all time favourite bands live and Chris' voice was on-point.. perfection.

He altered pretty much every song in some way, just gave them more emotion and balls and totally tore the roof off.

Hands down, this is the best thing I can ever remember..


----------



## d e c a d e n t

mistakenforstranger said:


> ...or am I? :shocked:


yeah


----------



## Shadow Tag

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> I don't know why 4 feels so wrong for me, it's so strange, it should feel more right than most types but it feels like I'm one of those people who mistype as 4
> Might be just because I'm used to 4 being wrong for me but idk
> 
> (sorry for not responding to things, just feeling so exhausted, feels like I'm dying every time I try to concentrate)
> 
> 
> __________
> @Shadow Tag thanks, doing mostly well, I'm glad you're back!:cupcake:
> And I'm fine with 9 if you are, but just wanted to say I think I always thought 3 was a possibility (maybe back when you/some people were considering 2? 2 didn't really feel right), so it's not just now that you mentioned it, from what I remember you were always rather hardworking and goal oriented and such but 9's (and others) can sometimes be like that so...
> 
> Not sure about instincts, think so first but it might be just because of social 9.


For you, I think it's a good idea to set your type as 4 and see if it sticks. It's not the worst suggestion for you! You used to type as 2 I think and even sp 2 felt a bit off for some reason. But it's hard for me to point to anything that screams 4. I'd see how it sits.

Yeah, I remember you suggesting 3 for me as an alternative. I'm becoming less and less sold with 9, as it's so hard to relate to other 9s on the forum. I don't feel like I struggle with the same things when looking at the 9 forum here. Oh well.


* *




Also, totally not advertising this or anything (okay, I am), but I made (another) video questionnaire response thing in the type me forum if anyone wants a crack at it to see if 9 is good. Hint hint


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Nissa Nissa I see you have been considering SX first for some time, if you don't mind me bringing this up on here, could you elaborate on why SX over SO for you?


Clearly I've been trying to get people to talk about this for several pages now so I definitely don't mind)
Changed it to sx/so in my signature just to try it on and I'm not sold on it, just saying how it works out, idk, every time I try to talk about my social instinct I just kinda end up going 'right so why is this my dominant instinct'

It's kinda hard for me to see myself as social dominant in a way, like I was saying about music, I can find it really difficult to get into or really...understand certain kinds of social things, there's a sort of...intellectualization and such that I don't connect to with the social instinct, or maybe a kind of moralism?? which is funny to say because I'm a very moralistic person but it's different I think

Like I mean I've always had a lot of trouble with politics, realize that's more an ~interest~ than an instinctual thing but it's more the feeling that my mind would break if I tried to understand it; don't think I have a very universal perspective, idk

And, well, I don't know, I always thought of myself as an especially 'sexual' person (I mean, before learning Enneagram), feel like I relate to the sexual instinct but I'm not sure how to talk about it

Well, I don't know how accurate this is but I was talking about this test earlier on the thread, these statements are all very accurate for me:
_
1) I have an addictive personality
2) "if it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all"
4) my energy is either "on" or "off". when I'm in the presence of someone who I vibe with my mind does an internal "YES! FINALLY!" and I try to start a conversation with that person
5) I can be obsessive with my love interests. I am either clingy or have to try very hard not to be
6) I feel like a part of me is missing and am looking for someone to complete me. at times, this creates a raw sort of longing that can lead to emotional volatility
7) I have strong impulses (particularly with regards to relationships). I frequently wish I didn't have to be so damn careful
8) if I'm not in a relationship, I feel old. I don't know how it's possible for people to be happy without passionate intimacy, because being without it makes me feel dead_

These are the ones that don't feel very accurate and it's what made me think I wasn't sx-first initially, not this specifically oc but this part of sx:

_3) people generally think I'm "too much". in lots of situations, I feel like it's expected of me to tone myself down considerably (which I will either refuse to do or do so begrudgingly)
10) people either love me or hate me, but either way, my personality grabs attention, whether I want it to or not_

But I also do relate to being 'too much' (however I think a lot of social 7s would too), guess I'm really scared of being told to back off and I don't really know where people's boundaries are so I hold back way too much, don't like guessing if I'm crossing a line or not

But the principal neurosis of my life was always around my desirability, I was worrying since I was a little girl that I was never going to get married, I felt like an old maid when I was fifteen, obviously I knew I wasn't but it's how it _felt_, I always wanted to make men sick with desire for me, really that caused me to sabotage myself, gain weight, because I was frustrated that I wasn't beautiful enough, weird vicious cycle

And I always had a lot of energy that I would classify as 'sexual', I was describing it as a possible 9 thing but I don't think so anymore, that I feel like I have a constant internal flow of new energy being created, obviously, everyone does, but it's usually more than I have an outlet for, and when it's trapped it turns dark, ultimately destructive, I've rarely felt that I had enough of an outlet for my energy (really the thing that should happen it to use the new energy in a creative, constructive way before it can turn dark), so I've always felt that my life was sort-of defined by this dark, destructive energy, I guess it's something I associate with sx

So idk there's that, not sure what more to say, I'll think about it when I"m off doing some errands

_______________

Why do you see me as so > sx? (open to everyone)


----------



## Darkbloom

:ball:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

-


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> -


Agree with what you said!

Now
:sleepytime:


----------



## Dangerose

The Fine Distinctions thing, doing sp too just for fun (only italicizing things I relate to and then bolding my own comments)

Self Preservation Sevens

• Self-Preservation Sevens are confusing since they tend to be highly sociable and gravitate toward groups like Social Subtypes do. Specialize in _“chosen family”_ in that they tend to create a network of people around them. *I don't see myself as highly sociable or gravitating towards groups necessarily, it can be difficult for me to do so, but I'd agree with 'chosen family' thing, I tend to think of looking for 'kindred spirits' - but it doesn't feel like network, I like idea of having a network though*

_• They enjoy sharing on a circuit of interesting or like-minded people. Other people are a source of information and stimulation; interested in the latest gossip and everyone’s news._ *Yes, I love hearing gossip and I see many people (not all) as a source of entertainment*

• To the Seven, the group is a comforting barricade against the dangers of the outside world, a bulwark against an infringing universe. *I don't think so, but I do feel less....scared of things when I have someone else with me, feel like I could conquer the whole world with a good friend to conquer it with me*

• _Can be loyal, if slightly detached, friends; protective towards those within their inner circle and good about staying in touch._ *Don't see myself as detached but I can see how people would get that idea too*

• Canny and practical, they look for the deals and the loopholes; can enjoy bargains, sales or _getting something for nothing._ *I LOVE getting something for nothing because I feel like some super-genius but I'm not particularly good at it, don't keep up with it but I feel cool whenever I send for free samples and I love taking shampoo and soap from hotels lol*

_• Equally well-versed in and fascinated by a large variety of subjects. May lack depth but have a breadth of knowledge._ *yeah I think so, unfortunately, I'm like the person who took 101 classes in hundreds of things, people tend to be surprised by random things I know when they bring up some topic, which is kind-of annoying because then I feel like I'm supposed to know everything about it*

• Tend to depersonalize, talk in abstract or intellectual terms and don’t explicitly toot their own horn. *used to think I did this but know I'm not sure*

• This subtype is associated with the cliche of the “party animal,” compulsive socializers who want to enjoy perpetual good times. *weirdly my heart is kind-of a party animal but...I'm not*

• In NLP terms, Self-Preservation Sevens are “activity-oriented.” _Sharing activity with others is a way to make contact_ or to avoid personal intimacy. *I'm guessing the alternative is 'people-oriented' and I definitely am*

• Can use people for stimulation and drop them when they stop being exciting. *no! I'm very loyal in fact*

_• Some fear being alone and will use others as a protection against solitude._ *but also duh what else are you going to use as a protection against solitude? living in a cave?*

_• More likely to have an unconscious self-image of being abandoned, uncared for or left to their own devices. Abandon others out of fear of being abandoned._ *Yes, I think so, tend to think of myself as very abandoned person, also tend to have 'you can't fire me I quit' syndrome but tbh I find it too hard to actually leave people alone *

_• Can live beyond their means and be chronically in debt; self-induced cycles of bounty and scarcity._ *Yes!*

_• Could equate being disciplined and financially successful with being dull and stodgy. The Seven rebels by staying “free” (i.e. irresponsible and broke)._ *Somewhat mean phrasing and I'd rather be able to be good with money but I also do kinda see that as being a vice*

Intimate Sevens

_• Intimate Sevens tend to have rich imaginations and are exceptionally creative._ *I mean this is something people have always told me about myself, kinda annoying comment to get about myself because it makes me feel like...art teacher or something,
not that that's a bad thing but idk, people tell me I tell lots of stories to them somehow when I'm not paying attention I guess and I get lots of weird (patronizing?) comments like 'I love your imagination', actually I feel like I have kinda bad imagination, it's hard for me to...think of things, in school I really struggled with projects that were supposed to stretch your imagination or something, it feels like the most humiliating thing possible to have to present an idea on cue, and I don't feel like the ideas I have are very creative, like I'm always kinda upset about my writing, how predictable a lot of my ideas are. *

_• They embellish reality with fantasy; see daily life through a veil of imagination._ *natürlich, I was always pretending every minute of the day since I was a little kid, or probably it's more telling that I still do it now, there's always a story going on
But wouldn't this apply to every Ne-dom?*

_• Often think and communicate in stories. _*I'd say so, again it's a weird comment I get that I tell a lot of stories as a means of communication? which I actually have no idea when that happens or what it means so I can't really take credit for it, but...well, my parents tell me that when I was a kid I'd narrate everything I did like I was in a story like "Nissa Nissa walked to the table, she wasn't tired" and my mother makes fun of me that I introduce or conclude a lot of topics with 'so here's a story about --- or whatever even if it's not technically a story, I've also always written or just thought in a lot of stories...again, feels more like Ne*

• Can see intimate relationships as shared experimental adventures. *Don't think so, that sounds weird and distant*

_• Avid learners who are open to adventure and new experience._ *Well, I try, was back and forth about italicizing it or not, I try to be open to new things and it's always been one of my values but it's also difficult for me, don't like to be seen taking a risk, but if I'm alone or especially with someone I'm comfortable with all kinds of new things will happen and I tend to naturally do things in a new (often stupid, disastrous) way, off the books, without thinking about it*

_• Dreamers in the best and worst sense of the word._ *people say this about me and I don't like it, don't like the word 'dreamer' and don't like being seen as naive but I give off that impression, think I can be a 'doer' too, but probably is to some extent true*

_• Intimate Sevens tend to be suggestible and can be swayed in their positions_ and opinions. *a. I'm not sure this isn't just describing Ne-doms, really and b. yyeesss, but I'm firm in things I really believe in*

• Trend spotters who seek the new with the enthusiasm of a faddist; _they filter reality through fantasy and the fantasy is what they purchase._ *Not sure about the first part, it seems like a waste of time to get caught up in fads and I don't know where to find out what they are but I like to be attuned to the zeitgeist, but it tends to have more to do with my personal trend, sometimes I want the zeitgeist of 1753 or something, second part is so true I had to make it red*

_• Sevens with this subtype are often more explicitly narcissistic. They tend to personalize their experiences, talk more about themselves and use the word “I” more than other subtypes._  *Hope not too much but yeah, it's something I have to fight against*

• Can be tentative about commitments and have a wandering eye. *No! I'm cautious about career commitments or other kinds of commitments but I know if I'm going to be committed to someone on my own and I don't bother with them if I'm not, don't see the point of wasting my time with someone who isn't, forgive me, 'the one'....and my eyes are very fixed, if I'm into someone no one else exists*
• May romanticize people outside their primary relationship as a way to avoid the limits and boredom of mundane life with the same old someone. *No, though I haven't been in a relationship, no idea what the point of being in a relationship is if I'm going to be thinking about other people and I'd be too crushed by guilt from that if I were for example married, if I weren't married and I was romanticizing other people I'd break up with the person*

• Can be more involved with their fantasy of their partner than with the real person. *No idea, hope not*

• Intimate Sevens can easily move from relationship to relationship searching for the right person or an “all time high.” *Don't think so, I'm very committed person*

• Sexual freebooters; Don Juan and Don Juaness patterns are possible. *No, but I'm a aspiringly devout Catholic, I've worried about what I'd have been like if I didn't have my moral code*

• Some report having high expectations of their fantasized partner and being easily disillusioned. *again I don't think so, hope not,
don't have experience though*

• aware of putting too much pressure on the relationship. *again no clue*

• Some intimate Sevens do stay in long term relationships. They may be interested in the mysteries and vagaries of love as well as genuinely love their partner. *ouais I think so*

Social Sevens

• Healthy Social Sevens are notably steady, practical and _accountable to others._ *I try hard to be accountable, I'm always very worried about being in debt to anyone in any way and I always try to come off even*

• This subtype brings Sevens more conscience and follow-through. *idk, I've had more follow-through in recent years but it's been a mountain to climb*

_• When extraverted, they can enjoy social celebrations, fine wine and good food, storytelling, jokes, and travel, all with an obvious gusto._ *Yes, these seem like obvious things everyone likes, though I kinda...idk, I can even like the idea of being that way more than being like that, Robert Baratheon-ness, can have trouble seizing these things though somehow*

• They can be unusually grounded and faithful in their responsibilities. They are relatively at ease with their commitments and are often stable and generous. *I mean I try? but it's a challenge and I don't feel 'at ease' with my commitments, they feel like anvil on my head and I work to get the anvil off but it's not like a pleasant normal-feeling thing to do*

• They are _sometimes motivated by idealism_, serving something beyond themselves. This subtype can have a stronger connection to One. *Sometimes but I can't think of an example right now*

• Protective of group members; _want every member to have a good time._ If someone causes trouble for the group, a Social Seven may react with a flash of temper against the interloper or troublemaker. *Don't feel like I have a group that I'd be watchdog for, think I'd tend to sympathize with interloper though, tend to sympathize with person everyone's about to turn against*
_
• Can be generous, protective friends._ *I think and hope so!*

_• Feel torn between their duty to others and a desire to escape._ *occasionally but tbh it's more what they'll think of me than the actual duty, but I haven't had really serious duties to others before*

• Tend to feel codependently responsible for people close to them but experience that as a confining burden. *No, people never want me to be responsible for them and I just get really excited when people do show some dependence on me and that becomes some sort of purpose which is nice*

_• Can be highly irresponsible, overpromise and underdeliver. _ *It's why I try to undersell, I am flaky, I'm always aware that my follow-through is extremely weak but I always also have idea that this time it'll be different, and well, that attitude's what can take me through sometimes, but yeah*

_• A number of Social Sevens are firstborns_ or come from a large family where they were given a lot of responsibility and little guidance. *Firstborn, but I remember small amount of responsibilities (chores and stuff but ehh) and quite reasonable amount of guidance*

• Others recall having to compensate for codependent or unstable parents. *No, my parents are both quite independent and stable*

• Social Sevens sometimes resemble Sixes, because of their dutiful quality and _their propensity for feeling guilty. _ *maybe?I remind a lot of people of my dad, we have a lot of...similar reactions? and he's a 6*

• Social Sevens with an Eight wing tend to rebel against their sense of burden and _can sometimes act terse and angry toward those they feel burdened by. _ *Don't think I'm an 8 wing but yeah I can be pretty mean and suddenly when I feel like someone's trying to, I never use this phrase even in my head, but 'tie me down'*


----------



## Coburn

I don't know why I'm in here. Maybe because sometimes I don't feel terribly eight. I wonder if my attachment style has clouded my ability to distinguish my type.


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## d e c a d e n t

:frustrating: Damn, I really posted some stupid stuff here earlier *dies*


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## Rose for a Heart

@*Nissa Nissa* one thing I have noticed is that So/Sx will need the group more than Sx/So. As an example, I was talking to a girl on hangout, and she mentioned how she is "too lazy to go to the gym," but that she would feel motivated enough to do it, if she had people go with her. This is not to be taken literally, as I am just providing an instance of how So>Sx would manifest. There is this excitement it seems, when there is a chance of getting together with a group. On the other hand, they could abhor any groups/society in a way that betrays how outcast they feel from it (+/- social). Their energy comes across as light, pleasant, and friendly to me. They speak to the group more so than they would to one person. This is actually a very crucial thing I have noticed - I get absorbed in, and focus on one person (in a group), but a non SX dom, specially SO dom, is more likely to be speaking _to _the whole group. I don't really speak to the group, though I have no choice but to be aware of them in the background, but I do push everyone and everything out of my present awareness when talking to one person. So you should observe yourself in a group situation and see which dynamic plays out more for you.


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## Dangerose

Coburn said:


> I don't know why I'm in here. Maybe because sometimes I don't feel terribly eight. I wonder if my attachment style has clouded my ability to distinguish my type.


What other types are you considering?
From seeing you around I haven't seen reason to doubt 8 but I could also see 5 or perhaps 1.



Remnants said:


> :frustrating: Damn, I really posted some stupid stuff here earlier *dies*


I'm still hoping one of these glitches will wipe out all our post histories - or mine at least 



Rose for a Heart said:


> @Nissa Nissa one thing I have noticed is that So/Sx will need the group more than Sx/So. As an example, I was talking to a girl on hangout, and she mentioned how she is "too lazy to go to the gym," but that she would feel motivated enough to do it, if she had people go with her. This is not to be taken literally, as I am just providing an instance of how So>Sx would manifest. There is this excitement it seems, when there is a chance of getting together with a group. On the other hand, they could abhor any groups/society in a way that betrays how outcast they feel from it (+/- social). Their energy comes across as light, pleasant, and friendly to me. They speak to the group more so than they would to one person. This is actually a very crucial thing I have noticed - I get absorbed in, and focus on one person (in a group), but a non SX dom, specially SO dom, is more likely to be speaking _to _the whole group. I don't really speak to the group, though I have no choice but to be aware of them in the background, but I do push everyone and everything out of my present awareness when talking to one person. So you should observe yourself in a group situation and see how that which dynamic plays out more for you.


Thanks, this seems like helpful distinction!

I relate to what the gym girl said, feel like so many things in life are terrible unless I have someone there with me
And I get really excited about group things lol, but then in the moment I find them /really exhausting/ and just want to flee for the hills, honestly feels like I'm in a war, one of the last times I was hanging out with a couple girls who I'd been really excited to see, took like a 6-hour bus ride to meet them, I ended up like wandering off in a grocery store on my own just to get a few minutes' respite, might just be that I'm really unused to socialization at this point, think it can be like a muscle maybe (even when I think now about that time I want to die lol and it was months ago)

Or more recently I remember I was really happy because two girls from work asked me if I wanted to come to lunch with them and I did and it was a lot of fun but once we left the restaurant they asked me if I wanted to go get coffee with them and I knew I'd rather die than do that, even though I liked the girls and all that, just :/

so idk maybe more of weird personal issue than instinct, I love things like parties though, always begged my mother to have dinner parties, seemed like the most exciting thing of the year to get together with a group of friends, maybe just because I was fairly pathetic, was always really sad when things ended, call it 'post-social tristesse', but it might have more to do with being an event, something to look forward to and do

Wrote this song for instance, don't post quote, guess it was supposed to be about death but I always think about it when parties and things are ending and I think that's when it came into my head but it's kinda the same thing:


* *





Tell me the party isn't over
Tell me this day doesn't have to end
You see, I don't want to go to bed
I don't want to rest my weary head

Champagne, heartbreak in the moonlight
Dancing, soaring through the night
I don't want to say goodbye
I don't want to cry
I'd grow tired of endless light

I wish, I wish I was stronger
I wish, I wish I was brave
I don't like to see the stars
I don't like the passing hours

I wish I could stay forever
I'd find heaven in your eyes
I don't mean to be a bother
But I'd really rather stay

Father, keep me through the night
Mother, don't turn out the light
I'm not finished saying all I have to say
I'm in love with evening, I'm in love with day
I'm in love with green and I'm in love with grey.

Tell me, tell me that you'll miss me
Kiss me, kiss me one more time
Though the music's dying, I'm denying
You see, I don't want this song to end.




(also how did I not realize I was a 7 until now ahaha)

Not sure if I address the whole group or one person, there are two things:

-Whenever I imagine having a conversation with someone I imagine it in some café or something and my daydream is focused on the reaction of the people in nearby booths, perhaps people I'm more interested in though so the conversation is for their benefit, but also just that...idk I like an audience, or maybe I want to imagine them thinking about how right I am

-But at parties or whatever tend to end up focusing on one person, remember ended up kinda ruining my friend's dinner party because she invited one guy who I kinda liked and also her friends were really bad at, like, talking, so I ended up encouraging him to talk about his boring investing job for about two hours, everyone hated me lol (more than him because he was so obviously...Fe PoLR/so-last)

-But idk I'm so rarely in group situations, usually I choose one person who I ~can~ talk to and kinda cling to them :/

would elaborate but halfway through this my computer decided to take an hour to restart so I've kinda lost the thread

don't feel obliged to respond, just thought these were good questions


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## Libra Sun

I'm not sure that I'm actually a 4... I relate to certain aspects of 4, but I don't feel that I'm dramatic, and I don't go out of my way to be seen as unique or original. I do relate to 9 in my aversion to conflict, but I don't feel that I withdraw from my feelings. I relate to 6's skepticism and doubt, but I don't feel this impending doom or sense of danger. I honestly don't know where I fit in terms of Enneagram.


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## Darkbloom

I'm not Nissa Nissa but good questions/ideas


Rose for a Heart said:


> @*Nissa Nissa* one thing I have noticed is that So/Sx will need the group more than Sx/So. As an example, I was talking to a girl on hangout, and she mentioned how she is "too lazy to go to the gym," but that she would feel motivated enough to do it, if she had people go with her.


I can be like this, but also not, different but when I started college for the first time I quickly met this one girl, and we had to choose something to do for PE and her choice was dancing, I was so lost and had no clue I had to do anything in the first place because it made no sense to me lol she told me to come to her dance group, I said yes, seemed like a good idea even though I hate dancing. But then I hated it and felt humiliated by it on so many levels so I stopped going, so obviously she wasn't enough to keep me there.
But also I quit college very quickly partly because I had no one the way I did in high school and I couldn't deal with it, emotionally but it also affected other things, I had no clue what was going on there, was always late to classes, was just very uninformed about everything, everyone had different classes so obviously no one could tell me exactly whatI was supposed to do because everyone's situation was slightly different, at sme point I realized it'll be impossible to fix all the issues and do everything on time and there was nothing keeping me tied to that place so I just stopped going, feel like if I went with a good friend it wouldn't be so horrible.
Or like at this new college, I sit in the first row but only because of someone else, don't think I could force myself to sit there otherwise.

My dad's big fear before I started going to college again was that I'd care too much about making friends and then somehow either get too distant or the opposite and then give up college once friendships started falling apart.
Kinda thinking about sp last, he knows me best and he always tried to encourage me to be independent and focused on my thing because it's something I sometimes seem to lack, I get overly involved with other things that aren't the main thing, also never really had my own...passions and interests and such, not that I'm not passionate, he sees me as very temperamental and hot blooded, but like I don't pursue my interests the way some people do even though I was encouraged to.
Or like used to study Spanish, really loved my group, I was always so full of energy every time I got back home, had to walk home from all the energy I felt in my body, and I adored Spanish too but like...to a degree lol, didn't want it to be too much about Spanish, in my head I came there to have fun, I loved it when he had 2 extra hours at Friday sometimes, it was like going to a party and that's why I liked it (plus I did like the language, was good at it too) but like...it was never my real interest, wanted to be a Spanish teacher for a while but because I thought our teacher was very lucky to have us and to be able to have fun all the time.




> This is not to be taken literally, as I am just providing an instance of how So>Sx would manifest. There is this excitement it seems, when there is a chance of getting together with a group. On the other hand, they could abhor any groups/society in a way that betrays how outcast they feel from it (+/- social).


Yeah can be excited about groups, haven't been in a group such a long time that I forgot.



> Their energy comes across as light, pleasant, and friendly to me.






> They speak to the group more so than they would to one person. This is actually a very crucial thing I have noticed - I get absorbed in, and focus on one person (in a group), but a non SX dom, specially SO dom, is more likely to be speaking _to _the whole group. I don't really speak to the group, though I have no choice but to be aware of them in the background, but I do push everyone and everything out of my present awareness when talking to one person. So you should observe yourself in a group situation and see which dynamic plays out more for you.


Here I relate much more to sx, often pay much more attention to one person, or I talk to someone and hope someone else hears/sees it and such, even here I find it so hard to connect and be interested in many people, think it's obvious that I only communicate with a couple of people.
Even in that Spanish group I talked about I mainly had one friend I was so excited to see every week, we'd come way earlier to hang out, also loved the teachers, one time no one but me came and I got to be alone with the teacher, always liked that kind of thing (but that's not sx, just saying)
But I tend to like having a special relationship with people even if it's just in little things, but like...that thing with teacher, was so happy and proud that I was the only one who came, or like few weeks ago I had a professor who used me in many examples because I was right in front of him and I liked him more every time he did it, love that kind of thing for some reason but hard to explain, thought in the past it could be sp and sx because of some kind of spark feeling and... really don't know how to explain but happens in many situations.
I develop or always strive to develop more personal relationships but not personal in bff's sharing secrets way, more spark-y, also often like to pull people out of the groups, or I have to to be able to develop real feelings, remember once in hs having a few words with a guy and I just...felt something, I don't know, think he always was my type-ish and I was somewhat aware but after that it became worthy of being called a crush.

As a child I often had obsessions with certain people, although in some cases not really obsessions, more like little fixations or something, again hard to explain, and always had a tendency either to cling to one person, talk only to one person or probably just a child thing but I was so shy 99% of the time but then there were people I'd just click with and my parents would be like "Stop bothering X", because I'd literally jump all over them. I had a very hard time connecting with my peers but I loved adults who seemed to love me and let me do whatever I wanted to them, or like different but my aunt and uncle used to spend so much time with me when I was little, I was about 5-6 when my aunt got pregnant and I refused to look at her when I found out, I was very jealous and possessive, was jealous of my little cousin for years after she was born and like remember them trying to include me, by like discussing her future name with me and such but I wasn't the kind of child to wake up one day and realize it'll be fun to have a little baby to take care of, I liked babies but I liked the babies that I liked, certainly not the ones suddenly appearing in my favorite person's belly (which seems maybe not So-ish? But maybe just normal, but feel like So doms are usually more flexible in general, I can get very fixated on things having to be exactly how I want tbh)

But I'm rarely in groups in the first place, when I am I don't speak most of the time and idk, with men for example rarely happens that there's a real group at the same time, also never been as terrified of talking to men as I am now, makes me nervous to even have guys sitting behind me in class.

Also I don't really like people in groups, think I talked about it, but it's like...I don't think they do terrible things or act like sheep or whatever, that is not what I focus on, just...not sure, just like people a lot less in groups, everything feels diluted.

More to say about sx but no time and this is supposed to be about So.


_____________
Curious if people can see sp last?


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## Rose for a Heart

It seems that my post was slightly misinterpreted. @*Nissa Nissa* , I meant _in the moment_, who are you speaking to (usually)? The group or the person? Because over time, I might engage with several people, depending on whether or not I _want _to, I am Sx/_So_ after all, or I might just stick with one person throughout. But the difference, from what I have observed, comes in from how you are approaching the group or individuals within it. For example, my brother told me I seem like I "ignore others around me when talking to one person." Obviously, not my intention, but I am built that way - I am completely and magnetically focused on this _one thing_ or one person, at a time.

Kind of irrelevant but - I don't know why, I had a dream where you changed your signature back to So/Sx


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## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> It seems that my post was slightly misinterpreted. @*Nissa Nissa* , I meant _in the moment_, who are you speaking to (usually)? The group or the person? Because over time, I might engage with several people, depending on whether or not I _want _to, I am Sx/_So_ after all, or I might just stick with one person throughout. But the difference, from what I have observed, comes in from how you are approaching the group or individuals within it. For example, my brother told me I seem like I "ignore others around me when talking to one person." Obviously, not my intention, but I am built that way - I am completely and magnetically focused on this _one thing_ or one person, at a time.


Oh ok I see

I honestly - I have so few examples to draw on, I'm just...not often in groups, half the time when I am I'm so uncomfortable but I'm not, like, choosing who to talk to, just trying to pass as a human being for the whole duration

I mean individual situations...as I've mentioned before in a new situation I tend to kinda...choose someone to have a crush on, so I am usually focused on one person and everything I'm saying is kinda because I'm hoping they're eavesdropping  but it's not like I talk to them

I really like having someone in groups who I can talk to, I mean, I'm always very conscious of . . . standing out I guess, I mean I remember in high school the horror of having to choose somewhere to eat when I didn't have any friends in the cafeteria, felt like if I sat alone everyone would be looking at me sitting alone, I'd try to sit alone reading or something at the edge of a group of people I kinda knew reading or something so I looked ambiguously part of the group but not really, there's just the problem in groups of needing somewhere to _stand_, so I'll often just choose a person who isn't too...intimidating and talk to them, or I try to take someone along with me, I'm constantly begging people to come join me in group things or eat with me or something so I don't look weird :/

I do remember . . . I was in a youth group in high school with my one really close friend, the other kids went to a different high school and idk it was a little awkward, I wanted to die when my parents made me go alone but it could be fun and when I got this friend to go along it was a fun...backdrop for our hijinks but she would also occasionally bring up inside jokes between the two of us in front of the whole group, and that kinda bothered me, even though I really like people seeing that I have inside jokes with people, that would be an example of my prioritizing group over individual thing but idk 

(or idk it bothers me when a friend _won't _advertise our friendship, always wanted my friends to post on my Facebook wall or tag me in posts or that kind of thing (it used to be more common for people to do that lol) or I remember having a roommate in one group setting and we had a lot of fun when we were at home but then she didn't really talk to me in the group, didn't like that not because of what it meant between us or anything but because I wanted people to not see me as the lonely loser lol

But idk it's hard to answer because I'm just...never in groups, just by happenstance, and I'm such an incredibly awkward person that it's not like I'm ever natural, doing what I want, or acting like I wish I was acting, if there are people around, feels like it should be a type thing, could be social I suppose, or w6

(But it also feels like...I don't really care what these people think about me, I post things I'd never say in a group on my Facebook, I'd happily make an announcement about things I'm 'embarrassed' about if the timing was right but I just somehow don't..._understand_, in group settings, how to be...so it doesn't feel like a neurosis, I don't go home and think about it particularly except in general review-of-day way, it's just...in the moment, I'm awful


> Kind of irrelevant but - I don't know why, I had a dream where you changed your signature back to So/Sx


Ha I'm glad I'm not the only one with occasional dreams about people changing their types XD

I mean, I'm not sure on it, just my signature


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## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> But idk it's hard to answer because I'm just...never in groups, just by happenstance, and I'm such an incredibly awkward person that it's not like I'm ever natural, doing what I want, or acting like I wish I was acting, if there are people around, feels like it should be a type thing, could be social I suppose, or w6


Yeah, same, most of what you said
(more to say, no time now)


Also posted in 2 thread how I always try to hide the fact that I have so few contacts in my phone, when I was younger I'd add every number I could think of even though I knew I'd never actually need most of them, just to feel like I have more numbers in my phone.
So not sure if that's something any So last would relate to but like...to me it doesn't feel like it has to be So, but maybe I have a weird/wrong idea of instincts :/


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## Darkbloom

Generally feel like I can't choose who to talk to or be friends with, at all, I don't know if it feels So first or last?
Like my (often best) friend is one person that has no other friends (not in general, just in that one group/situation) and decides to talk to me.
Feel misunderstood about this often, like my mom is always like "Is there anyone you like in your new school?"(not necessarily romantically/sexually), and first of all hate those kinds of questions, even if I had thousands of friends :frustrating: , but also she asks because she thinks I don't like most people or something, like don't find them interesting or approve of the way they are and she thinks that's the main issue, like when I was younger I had a habit of calling people who annoyed me for whatever reason stupid (probably not a habit of a very friendly person anyway  not to their face though)
and think she took it literally and thinks I need a more intelligent friend :laughing:
Dad understands it better, he often tells me it's possible some people fear me and my rejection as much as I fear them but I've just always been so shy and so I never felt I had that kind of power, especially socially, and sort of felt like people had to reach out to me and break through my walls, felt entitled to it almost because it meant a lot to me and seemed like it was easy for them to do so in my mind there was no reason for them to not do it.


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## Darkbloom

I'm not sure how to describe this, but like...on some level always feel like things 'cost me more' than someone else, like if I get rejected for example it's a million times worse than if someone else gets rejected, with other things too though, not because I'm very important but because other people will survive and I need the thing to happen or not happen or whatever more than anyone...just realized how dad often tried to challenge this perception.

Is that some kind of 6+4 thing?


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## Shadow Tag

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> I'm not sure how to describe this, but like...on some level always feel like things 'cost me more' than someone else, like if I get rejected for example it's a million times worse than if someone else gets rejected, with other things too though, not because I'm very important but because other people will survive and I need the thing to happen or not happen or whatever more than anyone...just realized how dad often tried to challenge this perception.
> 
> Is that some kind of 6+4 thing?


I think that's human. Like, in college when my friend liked someone, it was so easy to say, "Just talk to her, if she says no then it's no big deal because you barely know each other." But it's harder when you're the person asking.


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## Darkbloom

:skeleton:


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## Rose for a Heart

Could the instincts have a genetic component at all? Maybe this isn't the right thread to post on, but, I am just having these revelations and I wanted to share them. My brain is still going "holy shit" haha from all these things that suddenly make sense to me. My mother I believe is sp/so and my father sx/sp. I thought he was actually SP first initially, but hell no, that "emotional intensity/passion" that I always called it, I saw I had it and that my father had it too. But that no one else in the family did. Now I see it's the instincts. He is type 1 also, so things he does and say come out in this very passionate, Fi-infused (he's INTJ), with simmering or outright anger. Actually he looks kinda angry even when he is just contemplating. Something I have always been sad about is how he is so critical, it's like he doesn't see the good in me. He specially gets angry at me about my SX issues, but now I see it might come from a place of love and understanding, though it still feels otherwise to me. He got mad at me and said "you cannot let a guy decide your worth, that is weakness. I would never cry over someone, and I don't want to see you crying over him either." I don't like his delivery of things, of course, I am INFP and I really take these things to heart. I can't help feeling scared and hurt of opening up to him about my wounds but, wow. How did I miss this. He is very vocal about what constitutes a "good person," and that in the end, all he wants to be is a good person. How the society is and should be. He has his own unique Ni-type thoughts about everything, and he doesn't budge from them or change them. His anger does scare me, not going to lie, even though it might be coming from a good place. He doesn't really explode ever at me though, he has only done that with my brother if my brother was way out of line. Hmm.

The SO, I feel like that's from my mother. Both my father and brother and SO blindspot, but my mother very clearly has it. She is also ISFJ though, so the Fe might be bleeding into that. She is not passionate like my father or I. She is actually very...I don't know how to describe it. She is pleasant, light, and friendly. She never puts too much energy into her environment. She is never ever "too much." I mean, rarely do I meet anyone who is too much for me but, for some people SX might be seen that way. Anyways, I have always noticed how SO lasts don't smile as much. It's very obvious. I and my mother on the other hand, have a smile on our faces pretty much instantly when interacting with people. There's not a reason really, sometimes I smile because I feel awkward but, it's kind of always just instinctively there. We are both very aware of the way people are perceiving us, which I find absent in my brother and my father.


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## goldthysanura

I still wonder a bit whether I'm a 6. I just know that I have a strong connection between 6 and 9; I seem to bounce around between the two both on a daily basis, and throughout my life. For example: There are many things I want to do but am afraid of doing for various reasons, and I either confront them or run away from them, like a 6. But another tactic to deal with this is to numb myself out from that anxiety, like a 9. I alternate between phases of nervous energy and phases of trying to find peace at all costs. The one thing thing that makes me think I'm more of a 9 is that at my healthiest, best self, I would say I'm accepting, loving, and peaceful, like a 9, and that I have more to say about issues of self-actualization, acceptance, and being embodied in myself than I do about issues of fear, bravery, and security. I hope that makes sense.


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## Darkbloom

goldthysanura said:


> I still wonder a bit whether I'm a 6. I just know that I have a strong connection between 6 and 9; I seem to bounce around between the two both on a daily basis, and throughout my life. For example: There are many things I want to do but am afraid of doing for various reasons, and I either confront them or run away from them, like a 6. But another tactic to deal with this is to numb myself out from that anxiety, like a 9. I alternate between phases of nervous energy and phases of trying to find peace at all costs.* The one thing thing that makes me think I'm more of a 9 is that at my healthiest, best self, I would say I'm accepting, loving, and peaceful, like a 9, and that I have more to say about issues of self-actualization, acceptance, and being embodied in myself than I do about issues of fear, bravery, and security*. I hope that makes sense.


You seem like a 9 to me, don't think I can see reactive head type and think integration line to 3 seems right, I think the bolded sentence makes sense!
I also get a feeling that you don't have quite as much to say about 6-ish issues.


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## Darkbloom

.


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## Vive

goldthysanura said:


> I still wonder a bit whether I'm a 6. I just know that I have a strong connection between 6 and 9; I seem to bounce around between the two both on a daily basis, and throughout my life. For example: There are many things I want to do but am afraid of doing for various reasons, and I either confront them or run away from them, like a 6. But another tactic to deal with this is to numb myself out from that anxiety, like a 9. I alternate between phases of nervous energy and phases of trying to find peace at all costs. The one thing thing that makes me think I'm more of a 9 is that at my healthiest, best self, I would say I'm accepting, loving, and peaceful, like a 9, and that I have more to say about issues of self-actualization, acceptance, and being embodied in myself than I do about issues of fear, bravery, and security. I hope that makes sense.


Very relatable, for me it's the case that though I often have the initial faith I can do something, when I actually go there and do it the reality is what is dissapointing, because I understimate how much things will affect, me how much of an influence my stress has. I would say though, that I have displayed a more head-ish energy within my posts, more nervousness and a more head-ish and doubting quality to me than you seem to have. Regardless, I can only see my inner experience, not yours. All I can say is that I find your posts relatable and I believe that you are more a 9 than you are a 6.


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## mistakenforstranger

Random question, but did any of you notice your instincts at a young age? If it's instinctual, it should be there from the beginning, right? Have you seen yourself change from them too?

I'll just say as a kid I was very sx, even without any actual sexual feelings obviously, but that because of my being that way and it not being looked upon very favorably (I grew up in a very sx-last environment), I learned to be less sx over the years to where I see myself as sx-last now. Though, I've always seen my social instinct at play in some capacity throughout every year. 

If I had to draw it out, I'd say I went from sx/so --> so/sx --> sp/so :crazy:

Is that even possible? Do you see yourself as a different instinctual stacking at different points in your life? 

I don't think one's core type can change, because I can see those patterns at all stages, but are instincts a different story based on upbringing and other factors? It wouldn't seem so since they're considered "instincts", but at least that's what I've observed in myself, and was wondering if others have too.


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## Rose for a Heart

mistakenforstranger said:


> Random question, but did any of you notice your instincts at a young age? If it's instinctual, it should be there from the beginning, right? Have you seen yourself change from them too?
> 
> I'll just say as a kid I was very sx, even without any actual sexual feelings obviously, but that because of my being that way and it not being looked upon very favorably, I learned to be less sx over the years to where I see myself as sx-last now. Though, I've always seen my social instinct at play in some capacity throughout every year.
> 
> If I had to draw it out, I'd say I went from sx/so --> so/sx --> sp/so :crazy:
> 
> Is that even possible? Do you see yourself as a different instinctual stacking at different points in your life?
> 
> I don't think one's core type can change, because I can see those patterns at all stages, but are instincts a different story based on upbringing and other factors? It wouldn't seem so since they're considered "instincts", but at least that's what I've observed in myself, and was wondering if others have too.


I was even *more *obviously Sx/So as a child. It took me a while to realize that my energy is very Sx/So, instead of So/Sx as I had previously thought. In my photos I come across as very vivacious, happy, mischievous, and such an enormous bundle of energy that it can't be contained. "Ray of sunshine" (reference to this  weebly site) is actually a very accurate phrase for me in that time haha. My mother told me that something happened to me when I started going to school though, and I became a lot more reserved. I don't remember my younger self, so I can't tell what happened. But now, I am nothing like that. I only found one picture of my childhood self on my computer; will post more if I have the energy to look for them later. Here it is:










EDIT: I am not going to lie, as much as I think the descriptions are "over the top," the Sx/So descriptions sound _right on point_, when I look at the persona of my younger self. Something(s) clearly happened though to drain me of what was clearly my soul and life-affirming energy. I don't know.


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## mistakenforstranger

Thanks for sharing @*Rose for a Heart*! Cute picture too! It's strange, because I was very much the same way as a kid as you describe that way. I was pretty extroverted, dramatic, and could even be quite the ham. I was always trying to stand out in some way. Now, I'm really none of those things. I was almost too much for my parents and teachers to handle, so I was disciplined a lot for it, because I would talk too much to others in class, or lived too much in imagination, which again would disrupt the class. We can't have that! So, I received the subtle (or not so subtle) message that who I was as I was was "bad", and learned to hide or suppress those parts of myself. If I could compare it to anything, I think I was similar to Calvin in a way as a kid:


----------



## weeping willow

Nevermind, feel free to delete.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Random question, but did any of you notice your instincts at a young age? If it's instinctual, it should be there from the beginning, right? Have you seen yourself change from them too?
> 
> I'll just say as a kid I was very sx, even without any actual sexual feelings obviously, but that because of my being that way and it not being looked upon very favorably (I grew up in a very sx-last environment), I learned to be less sx over the years to where I see myself as sx-last now. Though, I've always seen my social instinct at play in some capacity throughout every year.
> 
> If I had to draw it out, I'd say I went from sx/so --> so/sx --> sp/so :crazy:
> 
> Is that even possible? Do you see yourself as a different instinctual stacking at different points in your life?
> 
> I don't think one's core type can change, because I can see those patterns at all stages, but are instincts a different story based on upbringing and other factors? It wouldn't seem so since they're considered "instincts", but at least that's what I've observed in myself, and was wondering if others have too.


You know, I've wondered if instincts couldn't fluctuate through life, seems like it would make some sense

As a kid there's no way I would have identified as anything but sx/so, suppose I was social in a way (remember campaigning that 'children and animals are people too' :dry:' and having lemonade stands to raise money for the rainforests, used to imagine that caravans of long-lost sisters would suddenly arrive but...I wouldn't have seen that as my neurosis I think, it's been really odd to think of myself as anything other than sx)

Me as a kid, lately it's been sorta standing out to me how...bland I looked, not how I experienced my kid self at all (might partly me the pictures my mother put on FB, I remember different ones)

Feel like this could be what a sx/so kid looks like? or so/sx or anything really, look like a kid

There is this irritating quality to me of...something phlegmatic, saw myself as choleric I know verging on melancholic but I look phlegmatic, seems like it could point to lower sx

This one not so much but some under the spoiler










* *

















































edit: reminds me, had completely forgotten but I loved that shirt in the top photo with a little line of hearts, reminds me of something @Signorina Misteriosa said once about an item of clothing seeming like something different, little line of hearts don't seem very notable now but they had very distinct impression on me

Also I like how worn-out my shoes are in the bottom picture, it was after this but I remember reading a quote once 'wear out, don't rust out' and I thought it was important to apply that to actual shoes, was determined I'd wear my shoes to shreds before outgrowing them <3


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@mistakenforstranger
In what way were you Sx-y as a kid?

And kids do have sexual feelings too, so I don't necessarily see why you wouldn't have any, though I'm not sure how much I can discuss this without getting into illegal territory. 

Anyway, I don't think I feel like my instincts have changed much from how I am now, though I do feel like they can... fluctuate in general. I mean, does it even make sense for instincts to be something really static? But I feel like I'm still the same overall, and what's changed is that I've developed more complex defenses and such, and... when I look at my childhood pictures, I do feel like I look different, but I think it makes sense for the childhood self to be more free and natural, and showing more of your uninhibited self.


----------



## Darkbloom

Tbh one of big reasons why I typed as sp was the way I was as a child, I mean yes I could be bubbly and playful around family but overall I was very...I don't know, I often think of it like "I barely noticed other people existed", unless they were very close to me and I don't think I saw people as persons in the world as much as just energies or something, hard to explain, this reminded me


Nissa Nissa said:


> suppose I was social in a way (remember campaigning that 'children and animals are people too'


, don't think I knew being one of the people was a thing and I certainly wouldn't want to be a person even if I was aware of it, would rather be my own category each:
And often just refused to communicate with people if I didn't like them for whatever reason.
Despite being somewhat easily bored and needing stimulation and such I was super introverted and self oriented, don't think I consciously understood social anything at all until I was 7 and starting school.

And I loved food, was very picky but it was very important to me I got exactly what I wanted when it came to food, I'd always make people cook things just for me, well when I got older I started feeling a bit embarrassed about it but mostly I wanted everyone to know what I liked and didn't like so they could give it to me, I was good at getting my sp-ish needs met as a child because I was so uncompromising.
That's one of the things I hate about not being a child, still secretly expect dad to tell people "My daughter loves fried chicken so please make sure to fry some of your chicken" or something :laughing:


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## d e c a d e n t

@*Signorina Misteriosa*
That's interesting. Feel like I've always been aware of people lol. Like the first memory I have is waking up from a creepy dream about my mom and being relieved that it was just a dream, and then going to kindergarten, where I had some difficulty with how to deal with people I didn't already know (and remember something you said once about approaching someone you weren't already close to being difficult, well, I don't remember exact wording, but seemed relatable)


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> @*Signorina Misteriosa*
> That's interesting. Feel like I've always been aware of people lol. Like the first memory I have is waking up from a creepy dream about my mom and being relieved that it was just a dream, and then going to kindergarten, where I had some difficulty with how to deal with people I didn't already know (and remember something you said once about approaching someone you weren't already close to being difficult, well, I don't remember exact wording, but seemed relatable)


Hm, yes, I was aware of people in that sense but...I don't know, didn't have any context for people or anything I think, or like...I mostly noticed people when they entered my space or I had to enter theirs.


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## d e c a d e n t

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> Hm, yes, I was aware of people in that sense but...I don't know, didn't have any context for people or anything I think, or like...I mostly noticed people when they entered my space or I had to enter theirs.


That does sound more So-last I think

Although I notice you type at SxSo now

I think I was aware of some contextual stuff, but... well for example, in kindergarden I remember walking with this boy, and being like "we can be friends even if we're a girl and a boy, right? ......right? " though I think part of it was I worried he was repulsed by me, lol. But I was aware of gender stuff, and would even feel frustrated over how female characters were portrayed in stories, for example. So I could be pretty Social I think.


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## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> That does sound more So-last I think
> 
> Although I notice you type at SxSo now


Because I'm confused 
But idk, yes it does feel wrong, but do think if I'm a 6 sp on top of that is a bit too much sp.


Also, found this, apparently about sp 2


> . I recently was told about an E2 child who had these behavioral traits:
> - picking the largest piece of food from the table; seemingly without regard to the needs of the other table members


Yes, and now I don't take it, like...I'll be really careful to not get the plate with most food when we have lunch but I'm shocked when it doesn't get offered to me lol, and also I always think I need more than I actually do, I'm terrified someone is gonna steal my food and I'll be left hungry.
But as a child especially I assumed I was entitled to the biggest, nicest piece, or that the last piece was mine, think that's an only child thing more than type thing, but also think I was just...like it was so important to me, I'd feel so hurt and offended when I didn't get it, and felt like other people just didn't need those things as much as I did and taking the last piece of cake was just some kind of rebellion for them or something, or they suddenly decided I don't get to have the last piece, 6-ish maybe, read a lot into situations in reactive-ish way.
But also I just really wanted that last piece and thought I should have it.
Still basically like that but it's less embarrassing to talk about these things as if they are in the past  
And I often take things to my room even though I'm not planning on eating them immediately just to make sure no one else eats them, like the last banana and such, which I think is pretty sp-ish? I mean I won't take the whole box of something, but in my mind I'm always like "Ok, there's 6 of this, I must make sure I get at least 2"


> - allways dissatisfied; the need for getting things from the parents allways exceeds the supply; 'why didn't I get...'etc


Hate to even remember this, always expected Christmas presents to just keep coming, couldn't believe it was all I was supposed to get until I got everything I wanted. And this is sad but remember being so _angry_ at dad and his ex for getting me an ugly doll and not the kind I had in mind, I acted like I was happy and thankful but then later I complained so much to grandma, like how could they get me something so ugly, and eventually to dad too, and I called the poor doll terrible names all the time lol


> - very sensitive: so easily hurt/indignant when somebody accidentaly forgets him when dealing the food (doesn't talk anymore; arms crossed; angry): 'I am not te be ignored signal'


Yes


> - attacks smaller brother when he doesn't get what he wants (easy outlet for anger)


 Didn't have siblings, but was very jealous of my little cousin, sometimes I thought of her as a friend, when she was a baby I loved taking care of her, later I loved doing her hair and such but I could also be very jealous and mean, remember being determined to convince her Santa wasn't real because I couldn't stand everyone telling her about Santa AND they expected me to play along, also couldn't stand just...being in a group of people giving her attention, was often a pattern with me I think, if I'm giving attention I want to be the only one, was better with her when we were alone.


> - pet lover; caring for animals in the childrens farm (not the very sick/hurt ones; he's too sensitive for these)


Did love animals, and babies, was very good with babies actually, always strange to me to hear someone be like "Ewww, dirty diapers" when I could change diapers even as a child 
That lasts sentence :laughing:


> - seductive; looks 'cute' and succesfully charms other people (even strangers) to give him things and love


Yes but never kids my age, opposite with them


> - makes presents for others but: when he has made something really beautiful he keeps it for himself!


I think not, but was very aware of like... having to make sure I get the best thing, hated any kind of surprises where someone else could end up with a better thing, and then especially if they were aware their thing was better and I'd die to have it, it was infuriating, tried to fool my cousin when we were opening those Kinder Surprise eggs and similar.
Did often buy gifts I could later use as well lol, but then later it became my thing to buy my dad for example dark chocolate so that I couldn't eat it (hate dark chocolate), thought that was very nice of me.
And often wrapped empty boxes as gifts, put them under my bed and hoped something would appear in them over night.


> - uses lies to get what he wants: suggests that to parent that the other parent has made a plan to go to the swimming pool in the weekend


Think it happened a few times but not purposely, I just imagined being told what I wanted to hear and acted like it actually happened but only because I was convinced it actually happened.


> - food maniac (looks and walks a bit like the Penguin man in the Batman Returns movie); 'don't we get ice cream?' after a lavish meal.


Sounds like me :laughing:

Grandpa always talks about how every time my mom called the first thing I said was "Are you at the store???" so I could give her a list of food I wanted her to buy, wasn't quite like that with anyone else though, but always expected treats after every meal, every time we went anywhere I expected ice cream or something, felt cheated if someone took me somewhere and didn't get me anything to eat.

edit: that person turned out to be a 4, but also, don't think this was from a trustworthy source.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Signorina Misteriosa
Still seems more heart-type to me, but if a 6, I'd think sx 6 yes.


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> That does sound more So-last I think
> 
> Although I notice you type at SxSo now
> 
> I think I was aware of some contextual stuff, but... well for example, in kindergarden I remember walking with this boy and being like "we can be friends even if we're a girl and a boy, right? ......right? " though I think part of it was I worried he was repulsed by me, lol. But I was aware of gender stuff, and would even feel frustrated over how female characters were portrayed in stories, for example. So I could be pretty Social I think.


That's so cute for some reason, what you asked that boy :lovekitty:

Remember sometimes being close to being friends with boys, like there was one boy and we'd talk about...I don't remember what exactly it was, tornados maybe, maybe sharks or something similar, he was explaining something to me  , don't think I was aware of it being unusual or anything until dad or someone found out and then everyone at home started teasing me that I was in love.

And yeah don't think I was concerned with portrayal of women and such, think I could maybe find it interesting like I think I was sometimes aware "This is supposed to be exaggerated female behavior" or something but...

Although when I was older, like 9 or so I got quite so/sp-ish maybe, often talked about what's for boys and inappropriate for girls and such, remember a story about a little girl who felt so frustrated that she had to just sit at home while boys were outside playing, one day she tried to pass under the rainbow (that was supposed to turn her into a boy) but obviously you can't do that and she ended up falling into a lake and drowning 
And I was really mad at her for doing what she did, like "She had parents who loved her and a dress that was so beautiful before she decided to fall into a filthy lake in it, how rude" :laughing: , I imagined myself as a proper aristocratic lady, was bothered by the fact that most of the world didn't seem to care :tongue:
But it was an interesting story to me, I did think about it in a way, hard to explain.


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## SpaceMan

Hey guys, I have no idea what type I am. I initially thought I was I had the tritype of the following: 

359, arranged somehow (not in this particular order). 

With the heart type I have no clue. The tests tend to alternate between all types: 3 and 4 the most, but I get type 2 as well. For the gut type it's between 1 (which I quite frequently) and 9. Head type is pretty consistent 5, but I somehow have a sneaking suspicion that I might be a type 6. 

I have no strong feelings for any type and am open to all results. If anyone is willing to type, please feel free


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## Shadow Tag

SpaceMan said:


> Hey guys, I have no idea what type I am. I initially thought I was I had the tritype of the following:
> 
> 359, arranged somehow (not in this particular order).
> 
> With the heart type I have no clue. The tests tend to alternate between all types: 3 and 4 the most, but I get type 2 as well. For the gut type it's between 1 (which I quite frequently) and 9. Head type is pretty consistent 5, but I somehow have a sneaking suspicion that I might be a type 6.
> 
> I have no strong feelings for any type and am open to all results. If anyone is willing to type, please feel free


Fixes can be tough to pin down because, imo, they don't have a huge influence on your personality. But it'd be a good start if you said what parts of each heart type you relate to and give examples from your life (if comfortable). I don't know you so I can't guess based on what I've seen from you, unfortunately. 

Same thing goes for your gut fix and core (5 vs. 6).


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> edit: reminds me, had completely forgotten but I loved that shirt in the top photo with a little line of hearts, reminds me of something @Signorina Misteriosa said once about an item of clothing seeming like something different, little line of hearts don't seem very notable now but they had very distinct impression on me


You're adorable :lovekitty:

And yeah, feel like I remember everything as looking so much more magical or something, think I remember things as being more...busy looking, had so many details on clothing or toys and such that I just loved so much and couldn't get out of my mind. Child me would like that shirt too))




> Also I like how worn-out my shoes are in the bottom picture, it was after this but I remember reading a quote once 'wear out, don't rust out' and I thought it was important to apply that to actual shoes, was determined I'd wear my shoes to shreds before outgrowing them <3


Reminded me, I kinda do that now, generally really like to feel like I'm really using something as much as possible, love seeing how worn out soles of my boots are or different but like l love going through cosmetic products and such, and not just for practical reasons, like I can think "I really got my money's worth" but it's more for fun, I'd feel that way even if it was a game or something. Is that Si-ish?


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## d e c a d e n t

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> That's so cute for some reason, what you asked that boy :lovekitty:


I never did get any affirmation though :frustrating:

And in general I felt easily rejected, or... like everyone hated me in a way, but when it came to boys I was especially intimidated. Felt like no matter what, I'd always be powerless in relationships, and never have the upper hand, or... you know. 

But anyway, didn't think about appropriateness. And well, I found too much masculinity off-putting in a way, so I liked a bit of girliness in a boy. :tongue:

Your reaction to the story is amusing.


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> I never did get any affirmation though :frustrating:


Did he say anything at all?



> And in general I felt easily rejected, or... like everyone hated me in a way, but when it came to boys I was especially intimidated. Felt like no matter what, I'd always be powerless in relationships, and never have the upper hand, or... you know.
> 
> But anyway, didn't think about appropriateness. And well, I found too much masculinity off-putting in a way, so I liked a bit of girliness in a boy. :tongue:
> 
> Your reaction to the story is amusing.


Is my reaction surprising? 

Speaking of powerlessness, I think...So might be my powerlessness instinct? I mean...sx can be too, but it doesn't feel hopeless in the same way, feels more like a
it could be a situational thing even if it happens to be across hundreds of situations, if that makes sense.But might also be the fact that sx things are a choice to a degree and social situations are everywhere.


----------



## angelfish

Hi @Rose for a Heart! and @Nissa Nissa - I've enjoyed reading the thoughts on soc/sx. I'd like to throw in a few considerations...



Rose for a Heart said:


> one thing I have noticed is that So/Sx will need the group more than Sx/So. As an example, I was talking to a girl on hangout, and she mentioned how she is "too lazy to go to the gym," but that she would feel motivated enough to do it, if she had people go with her.


Soc/sx and agree with this 110%. It's sort of an activation energy thing. If a few people I'm fond of are going to the gym, then I know I'll have a better time going with them _and_ doing something for myself than if I just stayed at home alone - but if no one else is going, it's easier and equally if not more fun to laze around on the computer. It does depend a lot on who the people are, though. I don't like going with people I don't know as well or feel comfortable around. In that case I'd be more likely to just go on my own. 



> There is this excitement it seems, when there is a chance of getting together with a group. On the other hand, they could abhor any groups/society in a way that betrays how outcast they feel from it (+/- social). Their energy comes across as light, pleasant, and friendly to me.


Yep - can be excitement about the people in the group as well as just the general buzz of interaction. I like groups that I can be around but not have to engage in every moment. Like just having family members around the house coming and going and doing their own thing and doing some things together is like heaven to me. I can lay on the couch and read a book alone and just hear the gentle background hum or I can go join in cooking or video games or going outside on an adventure, all as I please.

And my own energy kinda feels that way too actually. I mean there's also turbulence but I keep it more to myself and the people who know me really well. It doesn't do anything for me to exhibit it around anyone else, and I seem to just inherently keep it private most of the time (if it's bad, I've probably removed myself from a social setting, anyway). 



> They speak to the group more so than they would to one person. This is actually a very crucial thing I have noticed - I get absorbed in, and focus on one person (in a group), but a non SX dom, specially SO dom, is more likely to be speaking _to _the whole group. I don't really speak to the group, though I have no choice but to be aware of them in the background, but I do push everyone and everything out of my present awareness when talking to one person. So you should observe yourself in a group situation and see which dynamic plays out more for you.


Ehhhhh. I do wholeheartedly agree that there's a pull to be attentive to the group, but that doesn't mean soc/sx is definitely going to talk primarily _to_ the group. I personally really don't speak to a whole group very often - that's fairly intimidating and challenging. If/when I have to, it's usually in a formal setting - educational, ceremonial, at work, etc. And I can do that because I'm fulfilling a particular objective. Otherwise, it's much, much easier and more pleasant for me to interact 1-on-1 - often in quick sequence alternating between individuals - the thing is, my "group awareness" never diminishes. When I speak in a social setting, I always adjust my communication with others in the group in mind as well as for the particular individual I'm focused on. I never push everything out of my awareness (not sure I can? it would be hard and unpleasant, anyway), which is why I'll often grab a person I need to have a serious/deep conversation with and go somewhere private. You'll often notice me leave a space to take a private phone call - I even like to be hidden away when I'm sharing thoughts on the forum. It helps me focus and be attentive, because otherwise I'm so inclined to adjust my behavior for the social environment. I do like engaging with a whole group (assuming I don't really dislike anyone in it), but in little bursts, little interactions. I've seen soc/sx called "butterfly" energy - light, flitting, moving on to the next person, coming back, dancing around - I find that very accurate.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> Did he say anything at all?


Well, he was annoyed that I kept asking.



> Is my reaction surprising?
> 
> Speaking of powerlessness, I think...So might be my powerlessness instinct? I mean...sx can be too, but it doesn't feel hopeless in the same way, feels more like a
> it could be a situational thing even if it happens to be across hundreds of situations, if that makes sense.But might also be the fact that sx things are a choice to a degree and social situations are everywhere.


Well... no, not really.

And hm, think everything makes me feel powerless in a way. But in what way does it make you feel powerless? 

Social to me is kind of... well, it can make me feel inferior in a way, but then feeling of inferiority is probably a social thing in the first place? And so it's like, those things are so _dumb_, but a part of me still feel inferior. If that makes sense.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@mistakenforstranger
Alright, here are a few more photos! I purposefully chose the most Sx/So ones, but they weren't that uncommon to begin with. But yeah, I do have more serious pictures, where I am more low key. But in general, I seemed like an exuberant and happy child. 

Sorry about the glare/reflection. Here they are: 

* *

















































I just look at these pictures and go "how are we even the same person?!" I don't have this kind of mischief and exuberance in me anymore.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

angelfish said:


> Ehhhhh. I do wholeheartedly agree that there's a pull to be attentive to the group, but that doesn't mean soc/sx is definitely going to talk primarily _to_ the group. I personally really don't speak to a whole group very often - that's fairly intimidating and challenging. If/when I have to, it's usually in a formal setting - educational, ceremonial, at work, etc. And I can do that because I'm fulfilling a particular objective. Otherwise, it's much, much easier and more pleasant for me to interact 1-on-1 - often in quick sequence alternating between individuals - the thing is, my "group awareness" never diminishes. When I speak in a social setting, I always adjust my communication with others in the group in mind as well as for the particular individual I'm focused on. I never push everything out of my awareness (not sure I can? it would be hard and unpleasant, anyway),


I do have a "group awareness" as well, but I was trying to see the nuances there between Sx/So and So/Sx. I guess I observed how So/Sx's energy is a lot more...dispersed even when they are talking to me. And that they are a lot more likely to be talking to the group, than I ever am. I could be wrong there, I don't know. But yeah, if my friends dragged me to the gym with them, sure I would go haha. But I would go anyway if I wanted to. It IS nice to have a couple more people (more than that gets kind of annoying for me, I can't "keep track"), but I don't really need it to do what I want. I actually prefer not having that many people around me! Again, I can get irritated and overwhelmed with that much energy. In fact, when I am speaking to a person in a group, I will ask other people to wait before I get to them, because I can get quite irritated when I am speaking to one person and another will try to butt in. But then I am told I am "ignoring the other person." It's just unfortunately not how I operate. 

So it seems that I am "aware" of the group alright, and I want to appear...I suppose proper and not doing something foolish, but it's all very unconscious and not something I over-worry about. Beyond that, I am not adjusting my communication for the whole group, I am just talking to one person, and my focus is like a magnet glued on to one thing at a time.




> which is why I'll often grab a person I need to have a serious/deep conversation with and go somewhere private. You'll often notice me leave a space to take a private phone call - I even like to be hidden away when I'm sharing thoughts on the forum. It helps me focus and be attentive, because otherwise I'm so inclined to adjust my behavior for the social environment. I do like engaging with a whole group (assuming I don't really dislike anyone in it), but in little bursts, little interactions. I've seen soc/sx called "butterfly" energy - light, flitting, moving on to the next person, coming back, dancing around - I find that very accurate.


Ah, I see. Yeah, I don't necessarily need to physically leave the place because I can naturally tune others out when I am speaking to one person.


----------



## Darkbloom

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> Tbh one of big reasons why I typed as sp was the way I was as a child, I mean yes I could be bubbly and playful around family but overall I was very...I don't know, I often think of it like "I barely noticed other people existed", unless they were very close to me and I don't think I saw people as persons in the world as much as just energies or something, hard to explain, this reminded me
> , don't think I knew being one of the people was a thing and I certainly wouldn't want to be a person even if I was aware of it, would rather be my own category each:
> And often just refused to communicate with people if I didn't like them for whatever reason.
> Despite being somewhat easily bored and needing stimulation and such I was super introverted and self oriented, don't think I consciously understood social anything at all until I was 7 and starting school.
> 
> And I loved food, was very picky but it was very important to me I got exactly what I wanted when it came to food, I'd always make people cook things just for me, well when I got older I started feeling a bit embarrassed about it but mostly I wanted everyone to know what I liked and didn't like so they could give it to me, I was good at getting my sp-ish needs met as a child because I was so uncompromising.
> That's one of the things I hate about not being a child, still secretly expect dad to tell people "My daughter loves fried chicken so please make sure to fry some of your chicken" or something :laughing:


Would like to clarify that in most cases I didn't come to people's kitchen and say "Make me fried chicken, bitch!" :laughing: , but like...I was really picky, and I was also just...overall stubborn in the way I was, was hard to explain to me why I shouldn't be like that and many explanations just made it worse, thinking that could be a bit sp-ish because I took those things so personally.
But did always want people to take care of those things for me, was thinking how that could be another sp-ish thing, always felt how obviously I can't just tell random people what I want and don't want, partly why I could never connect with other kids because I felt so terrified of asserting myself, not so much consciously but I could tell they wouldn't want to deal with me (is that So?), I just... that's that social powerlessness, adults had to take care of me, with sx now it's...well it's just more intimate, I also felt like I had many weird extra needs and such and I felt like I had to have someone who is very close to me to understand me and take care of...everything. Like I felt like I needed someone in case I was afraid of something for example, I needed someone I could come to, explain my fear to them and have them protect me from it and not make it worse, I also felt the need to explain my personality and such or something and don't think other children cared, or even like someone who knew my secret language, really liked one kindergarten teacher because she always noticed what toy I wanted her to offer to me, so many things.
Is that sp 6?


----------



## Darkbloom

Think I talked once about how much I hate that I can't always express jealousy for example, it's just...idk, relates to this, miss having at least a bit of that kind of freedom I had as a child, don't feel like explaining more and I'll probably delete this tomorrow.


----------



## angelfish

Rose for a Heart said:


> I do have a "group awareness" as well, but I was trying to see the nuances there between Sx/So and So/Sx. I guess I observed how So/Sx's energy is a lot more...dispersed even when they are talking to me. And that they are a lot more likely to be talking to the group, than I ever am. I could be wrong there, I don't know. But yeah, if my friends dragged me to the gym with them, sure I would go haha. But I would go anyway if I wanted to. It IS nice to have a couple more people (more than that gets kind of annoying for me, I can't "keep track"), but I don't really need it to do what I want. I actually prefer not having that many people around me! Again, I can get irritated and overwhelmed with that much energy. In fact, when I am speaking to a person in a group, I will ask other people to wait before I get to them, because I can get quite irritated when I am speaking to one person and another will try to butt in. But then I am told I am "ignoring the other person." It's just unfortunately not how I operate.
> 
> So it seems that I am "aware" of the group alright, and I want to appear...I suppose proper and not doing something foolish, but it's all very unconscious and not something I over-worry about. Beyond that, I am not adjusting my communication for the whole group, I am just talking to one person, and my focus is like a magnet glued on to one thing at a time.


Regarding what you said - I think you just hit on the Sx/So vs So/Sx difference very well actually - as So/Sx, I actually have the exact opposite problem - I have a hard time not jumping to the person who interrupted, and have to be very conscious about staying with the person I'm with, and asking the other person to hang on for a second. It's not that I don't want to be deeply engaged, but I generally assume if someone wants all of my attention for a longer span of time, they'll pull me aside or arrange with me to meet privately. I have a strong (almost pathological?) drive to make sure that everyone is/feels included, so unless I know that everyone is perfectly happy, I have a hard time settling down with one person. 



> Yeah, I don't necessarily need to physically leave the place because I can naturally tune others out when I am speaking to one person.


That would be nice! I am a bit envious.


----------



## Darkbloom

I wonder why some people are just so difficult to type


----------



## Cracked Actor

@Rose for a Heart Wow, I love those childhood photos of you! You looked like such a wild child, haha. It's interesting that my transformation was the opposite of yours. As an so/sx 4, I was really, really shy and in my own head a lot as a kid. In my childhood photos, I look like I'm off in my own world, not even aware of the sensory world around me. I don't even have very many memories of my childhood (aside from a few traumatic moments) because I think I spent the whole time Ni-Ti looping instead of actually engaging with other kids. And then at around age 16, it all changed. My "wild child" behavior finally began to flourish.

It's interesting to compare these differences in the instinct stackings. When I discussed this with @mistakenforstranger who is sp/so 4, he was more wild and flamboyant as a kid, but became more quiet and toned down into adulthood. I'm the opposite. I think I developed that later on because I didn't properly get to experience it as a kid. I spent my childhood mostly in isolation and it took me a while to realize there was a whole other world out there full of undiscovered beauty.


----------



## Darkbloom

I was such a good girl when I was at school until I realized I really didn't have to be, had a phase when I enjoyed disrupting class with my friends in high school so much haha, everything felt 100 times more fun if it resulted in disrupting class 
Generally always had random times or places when I was wild, in a way always waited for a chance to go wild, often choose the worst possible moment.
Feel like I was always hungry for those things, think I mentioned how grandma would say I should find a boyfriend so I'd have someone to fight with, I had this weird dramatic energy trapped inside, but distinctly...dramatic I feel, like also really loved gossiping for a while for example but it felt like sx-ish love if that makes sense, hard to explain, I just craved drama, but also I did love to feel like I was included and in the middle of things, So-ish maybe.


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## Darkbloom

Different but seem to be addicted to crying, not consciously but like...seem to be unable to go too long without, always somehow find something to cry about, even as a child, sometimes I'd just sob over the stupidest thing and we'd joke that I was just too happy for too long, hard to explain why it feels like an addiction in a way. Probably just being a woman.


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## Darkbloom

Now I'm just totally off topic, but sometimes kinda consider like...1 fixed 6 or something as insane as it sounds, 'repressed' was one of my main characteristics growing up, in middle school a boy who I think liked me told me I could be a nun lol, but also like friends would always try to make me be loud, scream, curse and such, or like my dad always feared me going crazy one day, because I was so...good and such but in a stiff, unnatural way, always wanted me to go crazy when I was younger so I wouldn't have to in my 20's and 30's when I'm able to cause bigger damage because apparently it seemed unavoidable.
(also he always feared me finally falling in love with a real person, I think I was obviously obsessed with celebrities and such but would never openly admit I even noticed they were male, let alone that I liked them)

Could that be sx last?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Remnants said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> In what way were you Sx-y as a kid?


:blushed: Haha, well, I had a longtime girlfriend at that age, and we were pretty serious, or at least, serious for elementary school kids. Of course, there were other kids who had their "girlfriends" at that time too, but this was on another level, because of how long it lasted (a few years), and even teachers and peers would comment on it and think we were going to get married in the future haha. I did too. Again, there wasn't anything sexual between us (because I didn't even have a conception of "sex" at the time), but we would write secret "love letters" back and forth to each other every week, and they were pretty passionate again for elementary school kids. My parents found one of the letters, and while they knew of the relationship between us (I think they just thought that we were special friends), they didn't know how deep it ran, and they tried to slow it down a little, I guess you could say, like we were Romeo and Juliet haha. I'd also really get angry if any other guys would flirt with her (There was one...), and the worst is if I saw how she might have reciprocated towards him, or if I saw they were developing a stronger "bond" than the one we had, like I wanted to be _the special one_ in her life, but I always sort of doubted if I was when _he_ was around, in a Phantom vs Raoul way. He was more attractive and athletic (He was probably a 3 haha), and I thought he could win her affections over mine, despite all the "love" I showed her, because I was inherently inferior. That pattern of The Phantom vs Raoul even played out in high school too. There was always someone who is "better" than me, usually a 3 (Of course...:dry, and who instead wins the object of my love, while I must pine in silence and in the shadows for them. Unrequited love is a very strong theme in my life, and I've more or less given up. 

Anyways, you tell me if that's in line with someone who considers themselves sx-last now... Though, I could also just see those being strongly related to 4 too, but then it's so interesting that you can still see my type at that young age playing out.

I may delete this later, so I'd appreciate if you didn't quote. First time I've mentioned any of this on forum haha, but there you go...:blushed:


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## Cracked Actor

@mistakenforstranger I appreciate you sharing that story with us. I have a pretty long history of writing love letters to the ones I have had romantic feelings for when I was younger, being publicly shamed by the subjects of my letters for having written love letters at all since apparently that is "creepy" and "weird". Now I have a collection of love letters I've written over the course of my life -- majority of them are unsent letters because I learned the hard way that this is not how people court each other in this day and age. Courtship nowadays has been reduced to "netflix and chill". True romance has been condemned and forced into the shadows.


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## Rose for a Heart

@Hermetica @mistakenforstranger it's interesting, you guys certainly aren't the only 4s that I have met, who recount suffering humiliation when it comes to love/rejection at a young age. Although I think everyone is not graceful or smooth and quite obsessive/prone to infatuation at the age, so it's only human, but yeah I remember mine too. It made me - and still does - feel like there's something inherently ugly about me desiring so much to be with someone.


----------



## Paradigm

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Hermetica @mistakenforstranger it's interesting, you guys certainly aren't the only 4s that I have met, who recount suffering humiliation when it comes to love/rejection at a young age. Although I think everyone is not graceful or smooth and quite obsessive/prone to infatuation at the age, so it's only human, but yeah I remember mine too. It made me - and still does - feel like there's something inherently ugly about me desiring so much to be with someone.


At the risk of being insensitive, I feel like sharing that I had no friends growing up and any attempt to make any was met with outright rejection or that shitty, half-hearted "We'll let you hang in the general vicinity but not let you interact, let alone talk to you outside that vicinity." This happened to me from at least age three.

Happens to many people of many types, so I don't feel like it's a good indicator that "early rejection trauma = 4." My aunt was fairly popular with peers and is 4.

I'm not sure how much stock I put into the idea that childhood trauma necessitates type, if that's the current topic. (If it's not, I'm sorry; I'm not keeping up on the thread.) At the moment, I'm more of the opinion that type is more nature, though not necessarily 100% independent of nurture.

(Intentionally ignoring tritype, by the way... I don't feel like early rejection leads to a 4 fix, either, so it would just bring up unnecessary details.)


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Paradigm said:


> At the risk of being insensitive, I feel like sharing that I had no friends growing up and any attempt to make any was met with outright rejection or that shitty, half-hearted "We'll let you hang in the general vicinity but not let you interact, let alone talk to you outside that vicinity." This happened to me from at least age three.
> 
> Happens to many people of many types, so I don't feel like it's a good indicator that "early rejection trauma = 4." My aunt was fairly popular with peers and is 4.
> 
> I'm not sure how much stock I put into the idea that childhood trauma necessitates type, if that's the current topic. (If it's not, I'm sorry; I'm not keeping up on the thread.) At the moment, I'm more of the opinion that type is more nature, though not necessarily 100% independent of nurture.
> 
> (Intentionally ignoring tritype, by the way... I don't feel like early rejection leads to a 4 fix, either, so it would just bring up unnecessary details.)


Nowhere in there did I say though that rejection = 4. I said they _recount suffering humiliation_, because rejections become part of their narrative of who they are. And I had added that all this is only human.


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## Paradigm

Rose for a Heart said:


> Nowhere in there did I say though that rejection = 4. I said they _recount suffering humiliation_, because rejections become part of their narrative of who they are. And I had added that all this is only human.


I apologize for misunderstanding. As I said, I haven't been reading in-depth. 

I do hear my aunt constantly bringing up rejections or perceived slights, which I consider 4ish. I should have said something about how the reactions/emotions towards it is more indicative, which obviously you know but I should have acknowledged.

I misinterpreted the way you said it was only human, too. Suppose I'm too used to others assuming 4 is the main type to be traumatized by rejection, as if everyone else bounces back without lifelong scars. Sorry again.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Paradigm said:


> I apologize for misunderstanding. As I said, I haven't been reading in-depth.
> 
> I do hear my aunt constantly bringing up rejections or perceived slights, which I consider 4ish. I should have said something about how the reactions/emotions towards it is more indicative, which obviously you know but I should have acknowledged.
> 
> I misinterpreted the way you said it was only human, too. Suppose I'm too used to others assuming 4 is the main type to be traumatized by rejection, as if everyone else bounces back without lifelong scars. Sorry again.


No problem  The misunderstanding is...understandable.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Rose for a Heart said:


> Nowhere in there did I say though that rejection = 4. I said they _recount suffering humiliation_, because rejections become part of their narrative of who they are. And I had added that all this is only human.


I think @*Paradigm* has a fair point, though. I can't really say that I was rejected or humiliated by the people I was romantically interested in outright, or even peers all that much (It did happen, though), but I just didn't receive the love I wanted from those people (In other words, 4s are a Frustration Type too), which in the 4's mind can register as rejection, which is perhaps what you mean here by "become a part of their narrative", and that therefore love is unattainable all because of who I am. If anything, I would say it was my parents who rejected me, which they didn't intend and were trying to do what they thought was best for me, but they also didn't accept _all of me_, and even in more ways than I've mentioned above, is the best way I can put it.

Ichazo mentions this about 4s:

*



Ego-Melancholy
The Ego fixation of Melancholy stems from a sense of being criticized early in childhood, or having the childs core identity called into question and there arises a feeling of being flawed. The ego leads to being envious of the lives of others who seem to be so free of flawed nature found within those who reside at the 4th fixation so naturally the question arises, why must I have been denied a proper life.

Click to expand...

* @*Paradigm*, earlier I was asking, and what prompted this, is if anyone has seen their instinctual stacking change throughout the years, in part because I saw myself as being pretty sx at the beginning of my life (which maybe isn't all that sx, but I talk about it above) to where I'm now typing as sx-last. I agree that most of our type seems to be nature (at least when it comes to core type because I was acting like a 4 even before any outright rejection), but I didn't know if that also applied to instincts since I've seen such a fluctuation in them in myself over the years, which makes me question if they really are "instincts", or if I've been changed so much by circumstance to where I've possibly mistyped my instincts. I don't really have any answers, but if you have any thoughts on if you've seen your instinct stacking change or stay the same throughout your life, or if you noticed your stacking at a young age too, since after all if they are instincts they should be present at that time too, I'd be happy to hear any of your thoughts on the matter, or not is fine too.


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## Animal

I had three husbands in kindergarten, and in first grade I made two of them fight over me. (My friend remembers this, I don't.)

In second grade I was caught in bed with another "husband" who I was sleeping over with.

But then, in 4th grade, I wrote a love note to a guy and I got a call from "him..." asking me personal questions about me and my friends, which I declined to answer. After a few minutes, it turned out it wasn't "Him" -- it was some popular girl pretending to be him --- and I heard him and several girls laughing in the background. I resolved never to reveal interest in someone first again. I could chase, but he would have to 'break the ice' and confess feelings or make the move. This fucked up my life because I was so terrified of rejection.. that I refrained from making moves all the way until I was 29. I simply could not be the one to do it. I like shy sweet guys, so I ended up in these super long back-and-forths that would go on for years, with mutual obsession but both parties afraid to do something about it. So stupid! I wrote so many songs about this.. I wanted to break my promise to myself so badly but I simply could not make myself vulnerable to rejection. Even in the context of relationships.. he had to make the sexual moves first. And this really confused people, because I'm otherwise an incredibly aggressive person, a go-getter who lets nothing stand in my way. So the guys were really expecting me to take the lead like I do in every other area of my life.. and my inability to do so gave mixed signals and made them think I didn't want them. My friend even joked, "How do you know which guy [Animal] likes? He's the only one in the room she's not flirting with." Granted, I have no idea how to 'flirt,' but I know what she means - I lock on to people intensely. But when I was into a guy I could barely even look at him, I was so damn neurotic.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> I'd also really get angry if any other guys would flirt with her (There was one...), and the worst is if I saw how she might have reciprocated towards him, or if I saw they were developing a stronger "bond" than the one we had, like I wanted to be _the special one_ in her life, but I always sort of doubted if I was when _he_ was around, in a Phantom vs Raoul way (Funny, I dressed up as The Phantom for Halloween one year around that age, but not for that reason since I didn't even know the story at the time. I just wanted to be The Phantom, and because I thought I would stand out and be different from my peers. Did my subconscious know? :shocked. He was a more attractive, athletic version of me (He was probably a 3 haha) who could win her affections over mine, despite all the "love" I showed her, because I was inherently inferior. I hated this guy because of what he represented, and you can even see in one of my childhood yearbooks how I crossed out his face multiple times haha. That pattern of The Phantom vs Raoul even played out in high school too. There was always someone who is "better" than me, usually a 3 (Of course...:dry, and who instead wins the object of my love, while I must pine in silence and in the shadows for them. Unrequited love is a very strong theme in my life, and I've more or less given up.


Oh god, those 3s.... I feel you too hard on this. 

I was just writing this on another forum earlier today, about Phantom. Someone asked me, why do you relate to the phantom? My response:


* *





So many reasons.. actually I relate to him the most out of any character I've ever encountered.
His sense that he can't be loved the way he is - because his face, and his soul, are ugly .. distorted.. unlovable, undesirable. So he creates a world of beauty --- music -- which captures that ugliness and turns it into beauty; transforms the suffering, sorrow, desperation, rejection and loneliness into magic... turning it into a mirror that others can see themselves in. This way, if they close their eyes, they can join him in this beautiful world he created, and see his beauty and his humanity. This is what drives my need to create art... it's the only way I can connect; it's the closest I can come to being human.

Unfortunately the woman who inspires the most beautiful and passionate songs, who he infuses with his own passion... chooses someone attractive and easy to love, out of safety, even though she cannot shake her relentless desire to drown in this magical world he has created for them to share. He reached out with his heart wide open, endowed her with the talent to sing his songs and experience the world through his eyes... then, she betrayed him, loving someone else just because he's pretty and easy to love..... this is my biggest fear; the fear that drives every bad decision in my life. He made himself vulnerable and he was betrayed... he becomes so angry, so dark. At first, his desire, desperation and need to get her attention is captured in the music (as it would be with me) and he draws her in to sing his songs (exactly how I operate, especially when I used to fall in love with musicians). But the rejection makes him feel like he'll never be loved. He finally found a woman who could understand him, could hear him, could bring his songs to life and fuel and inspire him, but she wants a normal easy guy. Something he will never be. He can never be loved the way he is and now, even his music, all his soulful beauty and heart and pain , the darkness of his dungeon that he shared with nobody but her.. was rejected. So all he has left of him is a savage beast, hungry and desperate, yearning for destruction. She is the only light that can save him from this... and he lets her go because that is the closest he can get to expressing his love.. the only modicum of humanity he has left.

The music, the drama.. makes him lovable, desirable- makes him MORE than the rejectable unlovable wretch that he is.. yet it still isn't enough, because all she wants is to love a normal human man.. the one thing he can never be.


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> Then why make post after post about your current type, if you don't want anyone discussing your type. You opened yourself up to it. Sorry, but I can't let anything just slide, and I wasn't the only one.


She said not to discuss it. This isn't up to you to "let slide" or not. What you are doing is against the forum rules, and worse, against @Animal 's dignity. Grow a heart.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> Then why make post after post about your current type, if you don't want anyone discussing your type. You opened yourself up to it. Sorry, but I can't let anything just slide, and I wasn't the only one.


You weren't the only one. Awwwwwwww so if the group does it it's ok to do it. As long as other people are doing it too then it can't possibly be wrong!



> I didn't _insist_. I just asked if you ever had considered EIE a while back. Yeah, I said you valued Te, but that doesn't mean I meant you were an ENTJ. :tongue: I never said it was SO OBVIOUS either. You're exaggerating once again. Perhaps the reason my type perception of you changes is because you change your story so much to fit your current typing! And yes, I've been learning more and more, which makes things more clearer and adds to my perception of types, as you probably can relate yourself in this process, but still, an ENTJ? ISTP?  You've always been a Feeler from the very beginning and from everything I've seen, though, and I don't know how you can't see it in yourself. That's really the only thing I can say that's been consistent with you, even as you try to pass yourself off as a Thinker type.


I have changed no story whatsoever. But that's a nice little plot twist you invented there- probably the most creative thing you've ever said on this forum.





> You always seem to make it about yourself, don't you? :dry:


Of course! I am more interesting than you, so when I'm talking to you, I'm more interested in me.  Who wouldn't be?



> I guess I should be flattered that you've been paying attention to my typings of you. :wink:


I pay attention to all the attention I get from men. If there's one thing you have in common with famous rockstars, it's being obsessed with me. How does that make you feel? Tell me your feels! You're a 4.. where's the self-absorption? Let's do some introspection.

I'll give you a question to start with:

Why are you doing this? Why does my typing matter to you?


----------



## Animal

I get off on you getting off on me...


----------



## Animal

Confession:
One ugly truth about being Sx dom is that the quality of men paying attention to you is almost irrelevant. Of course, you'll only truly consider the men who are, well.. men. The rest aren't even men.. they're little boys, and they completely disappear from consciousness once they leave your direct line of vision. But even still... their attention still swells your ego. You want the whole world to see how damn desirable you are.. that so many people can't get their eyes off you. They can disguise it as hate, disdain, catcalls or unsolicited typing suggestions.. but no matter what form it comes in, you are the entity filling their minds. And the whole world, looking on, is growing envious that you're the light of their lives, the fieriest thing around. And even if this happens everywhere you go - and it happens with quality men - it's never too much. More attention will continue to feed that mammoth ego. 

And what makes me even more proud is I have the strongest, most heroic, loyal, beautiful, visceral, heartfelt, honest, open , absolutely stellar husband that anyone could ever dream of. And everything he does - even his anger- is full of heart, soul and vigor. And yet, the other men just can't stay away. They will insult both of us rather than simply stay away from me. They can't resist my magnetism. Do you know how big that makes my ego? And I hope my husband can appreciate that it's just about my ego- and he is the only man I see in the world.. he is my whole world. My everything.... @*Daeva* I live and die for you.


----------



## Animal

I'd love to hear some honest introspection from the other 4s in the thread. :heart: What is your flaw, your ugliness? What's wrong with you? What base, devilish desire satiates your palette and bloats your ego, even at the expense of others? What makes you wrong, dirty, inhuman? What's your poison?


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> I'd love to hear some honest introspection from the other 4s in the thread. :heart: What is your flaw, your ugliness? What's wrong with you? What base, devilish desire satiates your palette and bloats your ego, even at the expense of others? What makes you wrong, dirty, inhuman? What's your poison?


Any other time, I would answer this with a strong and open heart. But in this hostile environment? No. I will not. My heart isn't just for anyone to see, and when I am active in such a hateful environment, no...


----------



## Animal

Daeva said:


> Any other time, I would answer this with a strong and open heart. But in this hostile environment? No. I will not. My heart isn't just for anyone to see, and when I am active in such a hateful environment, no...


That response.. and the sad look you just gave me.. is exactly the kind of response that melts my heart and makes me love you. This is vulnerable.. expressing your disappointment about a place we used to love. You can't even hold back your true self if you try, and that is why you are so beautiful to me, so real, so raw.
I love you so much. :crying:


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> I pay attention to all the attention I get from men. If there's one thing you have in common with famous rockstars, it's being obsessed with me. How does that make you feel? Tell me your feels! You're a 4.. where's the self-absorption? Let's do some introspection.
> 
> I'll give you a question to start with:
> 
> Why are you doing this? Why does my typing matter to you?


Again, it's not about *you*. It's about truth. You are perpetuating lies as an LIE...:wink: 

Also, why I saw Beta NF as less likely at this point is because I've seen through the ruse of your Se.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> Ugh, that's your problem here, you think being a 4 equates with self-absorption and its led you to a pit of narcissism. You admit it yourself.


I've asked you to talk about you. But you're still talking about me. *fluffs peacock feathers*



> You know what Jung had to say about Fi-doms? It seems appropriate to share at this time.


I already stated my type is not up for discussion, multiple times. This is a blatant violation of forum rules... multiple times.
That said, Fi is my favorite function so.. thanks 




> Again, it's not about *you*. It's about truth. You are perpetuating lies as an LIE...:wink:


Clever! If it's not about me, what is it about? I asked you to talk about yourself several times and you're still talking about ME. I wonder why?



> Also, why I saw Beta NF as less likely at this point is because I've seen through the ruse of your Se.


THE RUSE :ninja:
You're so busy seeing through THE RUSE.. well?? You still haven't told me why it matters to you. I'm asking about you. Not about my Se, my Ruse, or my LIE. I want to know - what is it to you? Why are you writing these posts? Why does my type matter to you? 

I genuinely want to know. My Fi is so genuine about this.


----------



## Animal

Well.. silence.
What else is new.. any time I ask about _you_, silence. @*mistakenforstranger*
Since you've been so generous as to offer your opinion on my type countless times despite my repeated requests not to be typed, I might as well return the favor.

You are constantly referencing sources - you are not Te poLR. There is no mysticism, poeticism or lyricism to indicate IEI, nor any long term vision or attention to development over time to indicate Ni valuing in you. 



> *IEI (Yesenin)*
> 
> Dreamy, romantic, "head in the clouds", sensitivity, poetry, sentiment, soulfulness, vulnerability, belief in fate (in the "higher power"), obedience, humility, spiritual peace, unity with nature, a belief in a brighter future, love animals adapt to smooth out conflicts, flexibility, emotional, soft, discreet, charm, ease of communication, affectionate, serenity, kindness, feelings, emotions, tolerance, sensitivity and attentiveness to the people, the intimacy, amorousness, warm and disturbing smile, elegance, extravagance, the harmony of the senses, the pursuit of beautiful, aesthetics, poetry, painting, fine gadgets, wide horizons, human cognition; chat with the artists, extraordinary, exotic people. Curiosity, indifferent to everything new, unusual, beautiful. Subtle humor Dream, myth, symbol, image, vision, otherworldly forces, afterlife, heaven, hell, the devil, Satan, the Almighty, psychic, aura, thought-transference, suggestibility, precognition, premonition, intuition, imagination, hypochondria , indecision, idealism, life between myth and reality, to complain of fate, to ask for help unpretentious in life, the inability to "spin" and earn money, impracticality, lack of entrepreneurial spirit, a non-profit people, supremacy of the spiritual over the material, hostility to the "dealers" and business vorotilam, it is difficult to force myself to deal with boring everyday chores, disorganization, nesobrannost, wasteful, wasteful, moodiness "my grief is light", "I like to watch the world go," Oh, how interesting "love life in all its manifestations;! I love the sun day, rainy evening, frosty morning, the noise of the trees, the beauty of nature, the storm outside the window, like when a number of people with whom you can just keep quiet; I love all warm and soft and fluffy; I like to surprise; I like people who have something to teach; people who are not like the others; people, beautiful externally and internally "To comfort, reassure the person warm words, reassure, reassure, to set up a fighting mood and create a festive atmosphere


Your behavior on this thread alone could not be more opposite this description - and this is only one of many such descriptions.

According to Jung, or any other source, Ni is rather detached from the immediate events around it... there's a sense that the Ni dom is attuned to something beyond the immediate.



> The extraverted standpoint would say of him: 'Reality has no existence for him; he gives himself up to fruitless phantasies'. A perception of the unconscious images, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But, since these images represent possible ways of viewing life, which in given circumstances have the power to provide a new energic potential, this function, which to the outer world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel.





> The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and -- in the case of a productive artist-the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle. [p. 509]





> If an artist, he reveals extraordinary, remote things in his art, which in iridescent profusion embrace both the significant and the banal, the lovely and the grotesque, the whimsical and the sublime. If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man 'gone wrong', a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for 'psychological' novels.


This sounds nothing like you. And you may argue: but I'm an enigma, I don't even talk about myself! However, you are attuned to the nitty gritty "gotchas" and specifics in people's posts, which indicates strong Si, but not Ni base. You notice the ruses, the inconsistencies in your immediate reality. You are not a voice crying in the wilderness, mystical dreamer and seer, etc. You are very focused on the tangible concrete facts in the here and now, to the point that you claim to see through "ruses" in other people who have no interest in your opinion.

You also are not proficient in charm and attention to the emotional atmosphere to account for Fe creative. Your posts are dry, straight forward, and mostly filled with you correcting others for making mistakes. There is no attempt or ability to smooth over the emotional atmosphere or to turn it to your advantage in any way. There is just your version of facts, lots of referencing sources, and gotchas.

I would suggest SLI as a likely option. Either way, noticing these little details and sifting through them all the time is a sensor trademark.



> *SLI (Gabin)*
> 
> Convenience, comfort, stubbornness, flexibility, independence, (you can soften, to beg, but to order anything you can not), internal correctness and courage, calmness, coolness, ingenuity, put into practice, to have their own taste, jealousy and distrust, material wealth, beautiful and quality stuff, great food, handicrafts hands, diligence, prepare a work plan, the physical and emotional comfort, aesthetic taste, curiosity, unemotional (but sometimes furious blast), "lazy master", "if you want to work - lie down, go to sleep - and all will take place, "to put into practice, to improve, rationalize (to do useless work), to sell at a profit, put to use, are skeptical to the slogans and appeals, common sense," beneficial is that makes life easy, "aim: to obtain from the life maximum comfort, at a cost of a minimum of effort; necessary and useful things, loneliness, self-esteem, self-defense, vulnerability, sometimes pessimism and apathy, "black humor", technology, profit, professionalism, ability to work with any instrument, dress neatly, to the sense of taste, but not provocatively, flashy, the main thing - conveniently; rejection of useless work, wasting effort and energy; Hide emotions behind a mask of inaccessibility, is afraid that his emotions will be exposed to ridicule, avoid overly emotional people, economical in his movements, work slowly, with skill, low-key quiet perseverance, modesty, invisibility, thrift, "a talented lazy" perfect organize the space for comfortable work and leisure, to stay with the maximum convenience, comfortable working conditions (good lighting, fresh air, suitable humidity, temperature), "Princess and the Pea", irony and incredulity, the limited circle of friends, unnecessary things not all - in the case: "of nonsense," candy "," personal gift ", construction of habitat, caring in regard to family and friends, do not tolerate: egalitarianism, invasion of privacy, useless work, excessive vanity, crowded gatherings, noise, scandals, crying, emotions, when pulled over trifles, smells, extraneous touch Likes: praise, attention and evaluation of their work, public recognition of merit, financial reward, kindness, warmth, naturalness, simplicity (no nonsense, even in the art of avoiding frills and excesses details )



Beyond that, your complete lack of discussion about yourself, lack of emotional wetness, lack of self-absorption, self-dramatizing, self-mythologizing, or naval gazing; mockery and skepticism of anything dramatic or personal, lack of unique "defective" image being shown, and lack of sensitivity to other people's vulnerable sharing.. indicates you are not a 4 core. You may say "but I'm healthy!" however, your insensitivity regarding the vulnerability of others and your lack of open-hearted "connecting to the world through honesty, unique personal insights and self-expression" does not reflect the high side of 4 either.

I would suggest 6w5, with the constant attention on other people's supposed inconsistencies and lies. Your skepticism is ever-present, whether healthy or unhealthy. The sharp knives of skeptical 6 slice right through everyone's inconsistencies and lies on a constant basis, detecting their bullshit relentlessly whether they welcome your insights or not.


----------



## Catwalk

Original typing: SP/SX

Retyped to: SP/SO

Talking about my typing ::


* *




(SP/SO). (Although this is an unsure typing for myself....)

___________ 


(SX) is not a "blindspot," I just find it fairly intimate - impractical; to unleash without much incentive - '_close relationships for the sake of close relationships_', and find fixation on the "group" (social-aspect) of my encounter(s) makes it fairly easier to navigate my atmosphere without the overbearing fixation on "unmet" personal needs. Why get intimate with (X, Y, Z), why should I get 'deep' with a specimen for the sake of it? What have they done (?) Who are they (?) A family/friend (?) Eh, so what? Just another humanoid. And indeed, we can have_ just as much fun_ staying out of each others 'business', I assure you. (SX)-specimens can be _rather phallic_ - inserting themselves into crevices they do not belong, scavaging for food, attempting to caress your thighs open for_ any proof of honey_.


In regards to my (SO) instinct, discussing affairs w/ other specimen(s) would otherwise find "too personal", come for myself rather openly; I can sit with a stranger I find intriguing and discuss anything at all, without this need to get "_deep within their soul,_" which does not particularly interest me - and I suppose this is an "intensity," of it's own, I reckon most specimen(s) find this 'too intense' when I disconnectedly discuss _intense things_ (or things unique to the SX-instinct blunt & openly with anyone - without the '_intense connectivity_' (SX's need) present with ease, which was always something I was critiqued on, "_you can't just go around talking about (X/Y/Z) like that, Cat_," & that it should otherwise be more "tactifully," considered - they tend to lock-up (&) hit the road when I start talking - so much for the '(SX)'-fetishism claimed; and even in this, I see no proximate issue since my (SX) isn't in it, (SX) is a tad too refining for myself; and tedious - (narrowing), I get bored with the same connection(s) & eventually fall off their radar/out of contact, since I have no drive to go deep within their 'personal' relations + form unique sacred bonds without reasons. My (SX)-last manifest(s) not as a "blindspot," but as a functional-unit when the _'proper' _specimen comes along to trigger it, not just any humanoid with multiple capacities for depth & all their capacities and 'deepness' are all being displayed - cool? I suppose. Although, for me, I see all specimen(s) as numerical digits with little differences. And indeed, not much into being 'deciphered / decoded' or coaxed into intimacy that seems unnecessary (in the openness of social-contexts) (re: outside of myself (SP-instinct). 


Stay out of my 'sexual' business; if you will, unless there is some_ unique reason_ why they should be investigating the boxes in my basement, which is stammered around in indecisiveness / uncertainty when questioned why (X)-specimen is even down there, in the first place. A deer frozen in headlights. Just felt like _'checking' out_ my basement, just fancy "shiny" objects in my boxes, eh? It instinctively, just never occurs to myself that we have to_ go deeper than necessary_ - if the interaction is _sufficient, smooth, and great as is_. Not really into sitting down and discussing everyone's Enneagram Chakras (&) having some humanoid palm read into my personal/private dimensions without incentive for getting "insight" into... _what, exactly_? (Assuming the specimen can coherently explain why without it reeking of too much of their own (_self-interests_); not interested in sharing my "personal-self," (SP) to a specimen 'personally' for no real reason whatsoever - but am willing to _participate_ in the realm of humanoid(s) at my_ own discretion_, because things are simply more efficient and easier to focus, when there is no (_sexual-_distractions), if you get gist.

And I suppose, I have no interest whatsoever in forming close, intimate relations with specimen(s) I do not know, even if we have "many things in common," it does not warrant a reason to get _intimate_ per se, as I have "many things in common," with anyone, and from anyone (SO), I can gain more knowledge / utility out of distinct types of humanoids - than fixating on one humanoid. (SP/SO) is simply_ self-care _ - without forgetting about the importance of your (position) within social-sphere. Everything that _you do_, has affects, - on the environment, on other(s) and (SO) is an _awareness of these affects_. My (SO) aims to appease my (SP); if I subscribe to _group dynmanics_ - this keeps them (satisfied) &, from _fucking with me_, when I do not wish to bothered. Room for myself, without being (socially-clueless / alienated) (&) reeking benefits.


Introversion + (SP) induces more than enough "self-intimacy," [which may arise _a need to be cautious of ones needs for onesself_, which requires an attentiveness around the specimens in which I am 'intimate' with - or an attentiveness to the (internalized-structure), and leading with (Ni) of all things supplies any 'lost intensity', regardless, which mimics (SX) well enough], by default - thus, (SX) seems to cause imbalance within myself; to fixate and fetishize things that are _already taken care of_ - the only thing 'left' is perhap(s) getting naked - and (SX) last comes necessary with the right humanoids - and assuming the "majority" are all wrong, I can still find utility in them elsewhere in other social-facets. There is_ no craving_ to explore deep with psychological intimate realms of specimens - and milk all affairs of it's insensity for myself. Seems like a private affair; to be enjoyed in moderation & maintained _than spoiled_ - & any (SX)-exploration should be done only if there are_ good reasons_; and until then - (SO) is simply opportunism. 

A main complaint of specimen(s) close to myself is I am so (SP) - (deterimentally secrative/frugal about privacy), but incredibly open to strangers - at the same time -- which seems [confusing] for most specimen(s), as I _go cold _the moment they attempt scooching closer. I tend to be relaxed around strangers, and "uncomfortable," around one-on-one milking with specimens just because, although, if you introduced (3) other humanoid(s) into the equation, all is fine - the attention is diverted, it is easier to communicate - keep things light, flowing, conflict free. I do not wish to be stuck giving therapy sessions on humanoid(s) I do not really care about. _I am all open_ to humanoids, until the specimen asks for a key to my place and attempts to thrust themselves into my space; this is my domain - and I will not share it without reason - and what "reasons" do you have (?) Humanoids are dime a dozen - abudance mindset; humanoids are everywhere - all functioning relatively similar, with mild uninteresting distinctions. I suppose it is somewhat [frightening] in a sense, it induces a tendency to be (blind) to the utility of "intense," connectivity (and that perhaps, individuals should be considered in more depth - rather than numerical digits), specimen(s) have feels, special passions, important "unqiue 'desires' to be split open (&) raw on the operating table - and I perhaps, slow down and warranted attentiveness to this.

There is not much craving beyond (SP) for myself to form reckless, randomized intimacy just because the specimen has a capacity to do so, well, any humanoid can "_talk about deep things,_" -- darling, does not warrant they are worth _spreading eagle _to. The "_all eggs in one basket approach_," is simply impractical. Cast a wide net and throw out the spoiled fish; and suck what you can from the exchange, all is valuable for moving forward. *No one is unique*, from my (SO)-POV, rather every and all specimens has _unique information to share_ - which is why it interests me more to be (SO-cially aware), than (SX), scrutinzing.

My (SX) instinct is for the specimen(s) that interest me - not simply this strange need to just 'be deep' for the sake of deepness; there is no genuineness here. Just curiosity; nosiness. No genuine desire to "know the humanoid," just a desire to quench their own (deprived) thrist for *intimate details*. Just want to know _the ingredients _ for a cake they are unsure about even (baking) with entirety. _No guinea pigs _ in this kitchen. Remember the basic social etiquette of not _drooling all over the buns_, other specimen(s) have to eat, too - wipe your mouth. _The bakery is closed for business_.





_Thoughts,_ darlings? 
*
Let 1 = least myself

Let 5 = most myself *


Social

* *






1) Generally, I positively associate with the idea of being a part of something larger than myself. Though I may find it either overwhelming, because of my astute awareness of what lies beyond my own interests, or inspiring. —*4*


2) I am very aware of the impact my decision will have on others and can be quite attuned to their reactions and needs. I read people well. —*3*

3) Being recognized or valued by my peers or community, for my contributions, is important to me. —*1 *

4) I tend to have strong opinions on social change and/or social constructs and trends. —*1* 

5) I am aware of not only my own relationships, but also power structures and the nature of bonds between other people. I have a deep understanding of interconnectedness between groups and people who comprise them. In other words, I am good at perceiving the many facets of how a group works within its context and outside of it. I easily pick up on how I fit into the social hierarchy, whether or not I approve of it. —*3*

6) I am socially aware, but I can also be reserved and socially distant. —*5*

7) If I gravitate towards group (s)/institution (s)/gathering(s)of my choosing, I can be quite involved with championing the values and goals of this grouping. —*4*

8) I tend to keep track of current events, even when not required to for my career performance. —*2 *

9) At my worst I am either strongly conformist or excessively anti-society/counter culture. At my best, my relationships with others are ones of healthy interdependence, and I may be inclined to strong individual leadership or display deep commitment in establishing teamwork and collaboration. —*1*

10) "no man is an island." Everything is part of an interconnected web, like it or not. —*4*





Self Preservation


* *





1) I am acutely aware of my physical safety (though sometimes I will choose to do something dangerous anyway) —*4*

2) when I go to a party, I immediately notice the temperature, the smells and where the food is—*2*

3) I am very health conscious —*2*

4) financial/career *—4*

physical security *—3*

and romantic security are very important to me *—1*

5) if I have an injury or a health related problem, I typically notice quickly *—4*

6) I tend to save a decent amount of my money —*5
*

7) predictability is important to me. *—2*

the sooner I can know about things in advance, the better. *—5*


8) when I'm under stress, things like health, finances, hygiene or other things that I normally stay on top of start to slip, sometimes severely. *—3*

9) I'm acutely aware of cause and effect, particularly when the potential consequences are dire. if my friends listened to me more, they'd end up making a lot less stupid mistakes *—5*

10) physical comfort is important to me. I can get distracted by things like uncomfortable seats, high humidity or bodily pain when I'm trying to enjoy time with my friends *—1*




Sexual

* *






1) I have an addictive personality *—2*

2) "if it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all" *—1*

3) people generally think I'm "too much". in lots of situations, I feel like it's expected of me to tone myself down considerably (which I will either refuse to do or do so begrudgingly) *—3*

4) my energy is either "on" or "off". when I'm in the presence of someone who I vibe with my mind does an internal "YES! FINALLY!" and I try to start a conversation with that person *—3*

5) I can be obsessive with my love interests. I am either clingy or have to try very hard not to be *—2*

6) I feel like a part of me is missing and am looking for someone to complete me. at times, this creates a raw sort of longing that can lead to emotional volatility *—1*

7) I have strong impulses (particularly with regards to relationships). I frequently wish I didn't have to be so damn careful *—1*

8) if I'm not in a relationship, I feel old. I don't know how it's possible for people to be happy without passionate intimacy, because being without it makes me feel dead *—1*

9) I only feel alive when indulging my passions. sometimes this causes me to neglect other areas of my life *—3*

10) people either love me or hate me, but either way, my personality grabs attention, whether I want it to or not *—4*


----------



## Animal

@*V i x e n*
I love your avatar and user name roud:
Your post does sound Sx last - because you want to keep other people out of your innards, and you don't have much propensity to 'lose yourself in the other' as far as I can tell.

"If it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all" -- that was my own original quote which I had on my first signature on Perc when I first joined in 2012 and kept for years - I should go back to it. :happy: It is so incredibly pertinent. @*Swordsman of Mana* stole it from my signature and put it on the Sx segment of the test and I was so honored!

I was not sure if it was really Sx or it was my 8 fix, 7 fix etc.... but you are an 8w7 and don't relate to it. So it seems he was right to associate it with Sx. Thank you for that tidbit of information; I'd been wondering about that all this time.


Sx last does not mean someone doesn't crave sex or relationships. It just means they don't have that addictive "lose yourself in the other" neurosis that Sx doms have. Between 8 core and Sx last, you only let them see more of you because it's what THEY desire. That makes a lot of sense.



> (SX)-specimens can be rather phallic - inserting themselves into crevices they do not belong, scavaging for food, attempting to caress your thighs open for any proof of honey.


Lol. I suppose this is how people perceive us. Your post was very informative from my perspective.


----------



## Animal

Awesome hilarious quotes.


V i x e n said:


> (SX)-specimens can be _rather phallic_ - inserting themselves into crevices they do not belong, scavaging for food, attempting to caress your thighs open for_ any proof of honey_.





> Stay out of my 'sexual' business; if you will, unless there is some_ unique reason_ why they should be investigating the boxes in my basement, which is stammered around in indecisiveness / uncertainty when questioned why (X)-specimen is even down there, in the first place. A deer frozen in headlights. Just felt like _'checking' out_ my basement, just fancy "shiny" objects in my boxes, eh?





> I suppose it is somewhat [frightening] in a sense, it induces a tendency to be (blind) to the utility of "intense," connectivity (and that perhaps, individuals should be considered in more depth - rather than numerical digits), specimen(s) have feels, special passions, important "unqiue 'desires' to be split open (&) raw on the operating table - and I perhaps, slow down and warranted attentiveness to this.





> There is not much craving beyond (SP) for myself to form reckless, randomized intimacy just because the specimen has a capacity to do so, well, any humanoid can "_talk about deep things,_" -- darling, does not warrant they are worth _spreading eagle _to.





> My (SX) instinct is for the specimen(s) that interest me - not simply this strange need to just 'be deep' for the sake of deepness; there is no genuineness here. Just curiosity; nosiness. No genuine desire to "know the humanoid," just a desire to quench their own (deprived) thrist for *intimate details*. Just want to know _the ingredients _ for a cake they are unsure about even (baking) with entirety. _No guinea pigs _ in this kitchen. Remember the basic social etiquette of not _drooling all over the buns_, other specimen(s) have to eat, too - wipe your mouth. _The bakery is closed for business_.


Lol I love these quotes. Poetic declaration of non-romanticism... brilliant. This is what Ni dominance looks like.


----------



## Catwalk

Animal said:


> @*V i x e n*
> I love your avatar and user name roud:


*Likewise* with Animal™! I_ appreciate_ the feedback.




> Your post does sound Sx last - because you want to keep other people out of your innards, and you don't have much propensity to 'lose yourself in the other' as far as I can tell.
> 
> "If it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all" -- that was my own original quote which I had on my first signature on Perc when I first joined in 2012 and kept for years - I should go back to it. :happy: It is so incredibly pertinent. @*Swordsman of Mana* stole it from my signature and put it on the Sx segment of the test and I was so honored!
> 
> I was not sure if it was really Sx or it was my 8 fix, 7 fix etc.... but you are an 8w7 and don't relate to it. So it seems he was right to associate it with Sx. Thank you for that tidbit of information; I'd been wondering about that all this time.


Mm.. yes, there are certainly _many things_ worth doing (that _needn't be_ done in excess)... so perhaps it is unique to (SX). Overall, I have a 'disconnect' (re: interpersonally) between distinct people, while acquiring a capacity to discuss personal (SX-related) topics and affairs, with a flow of cool, callous openness, while perhaps, (SX)-specimens need some time to for the "_all or nothing_," switch. I am simply_ all open_.. all the time, while paradoxically never being // having a desire to be vulnerably "_submerged_ / engulfed" within the other, which others respond to me either negatively - or "sink themselves," into my presence for comfort. Maybe the (SX)-folks; and this is the perception of "fire hot," when devising their personas.



> Sx last does not mean someone doesn't crave sex or relationships. It just means they don't have that addictive "lose yourself in the other" neurosis that Sx doms have. Between 8 core and Sx last, you only let them see more of you because it's what THEY desire. That makes a lot of sense.


I am open to the possibility I were confusing "SO" with "SX" - regarding my original (SP/SX); typing due to the fact I have an abrasive/strong sexuality, keen awareness of my body and aesthetics - and open-ward expression of myself (speaking flatly about sensitive subjects), and confusing this with (SX)-intensity, but it is really a keen '_hollowness_' (lack of SX) "intensity" that follows; if not a bit of shallowness in my interactions with others, I were misinterpating, that because my 'social humility' (re: ability to embarrassed) is relatively low - and because of this, I infiltrate / insert myself at my own discretion into many social-affairs, and socialize and/or lead people just fine, and haven't any desire, if anything, feel relatively uncomfortable in the traditional "_one-on-one_" intensity thing, I must've been (SX).




> Lol. I suppose this is how people perceive us. Your post was very informative from my perspective.


:smug:


----------



## Animal

V i x e n said:


> *Likewise* with Animal™! I_ appreciate_ the feedback.


I appreciate the post. Ironically you're saying most people are not unique while writing in a unique style. And I don't throw the word "unique" around lightly, either.



> Mm.. yes, there are certainly _many things_ worth doing (that _needn't be_ done in excess)... so perhaps it is unique to (SX). Overall, I have a 'disconnect' (re: interpersonally) between distinct people, while acquiring a capacity to discuss personal (SX-related) topics and affairs, with a flow of cool, callous openness, while perhaps, (SX)-specimens need some time to for the "_all or nothing_," switch. I am simply_ all open_.. all the time, while paradoxically never being // having a desire to be vulnerably "_submerged_ / engulfed" within the other, which others respond to me either negatively - or "sink themselves," into my presence for comfort. Maybe the (SX)-folks; and this is the perception of "fire hot," when devising their personas.


Socially, it's cool if people go all out, say some straight-forward stuff that would shock other people. I grew up with a 7w8 784 father, an ex famous rockstar.. he says whatever he wants, even if it breaks the world. So I'm used to it. And he has a sharp brain too.. cuts you open if he wants, then makes you laugh even while you want to be angry. He used to come out on the streets when I was hanging out as a young teen and yell out annoying things like "my cute little girl is all grown up with her friends!" to try to embarrass me in public, and instead of getting upset I gave it right back to him. Not much can shock me after growing up with him.


But, if someone is interested in me sexually, and.. let's say I'm interested for a moment.. but then he starts saying something too explicit, too fast, and it's too overtly sexual or "I want you" ... I figure he's not really into me. Because it was too easy for him to say that. If he was into me for real he'd be a little nervous. If he's just saying whatever he wants, I'm replaceable to him. And that's basically what you're describing. The specimens are replaceable, all the same. I refuse to be that - I need to be unique in his eyes. So if he's too blatant or assertive without any vulnerability, he can't have my.. "honey."



> I am open to the possibility I were confusing "SO" with "SX" - regarding my original (SP/SX); typing due to the fact I have an abrasive/strong sexuality, keen awareness of my body and aesthetics - and open-ward expression of myself (speaking flatly about sensitive subjects), and confusing this with (SX)-intensity, but it is really a keen '_hollowness_' (lack of SX) "intensity" that follows; if not a bit of shallowness in my interactions with others, I were misinterpating, that because my 'social humility' (re: ability to embarrassed) is relatively low - and because of this, I infiltrate / insert myself at my own discretion into many social-affairs, and socialize and/or lead people just fine, and haven't any desire, if anything, feel relatively uncomfortable in the traditional "_one-on-one_" intensity thing, I must've been (SX).
> 
> 
> :smug:


Yeah, I think it's Sx last still. Because anyone, any stack, can be intense. Most people would call Trump 'intense' in some way and he's Sp/So. Rookies type him at Sx because he's "intense" but that's a noob mistake.. he blurts out "I grab them by the pussy" and has no subtlety or vulnerability in that area. He's all money-drive and social drive. Big business guy. But, 8w7, balls out, intense, crazy. And it's shallow in terms of connection or intimacy. There are so many videos where he completely forgets his wife is standing next to him.

What it sounds like to me is you have big 8w7 energy. You're open because it's not intimate, it's just good fun, keeping it fun in the moment. And 8w7 will read as "intense" to most people because it's big energy needing to be met. But you don't want to "penetrate" into the person.. Sp/Sx is even more likely to hone in on just one person at the expense of all others than any other stack. Because Sx doms, at the very least, have a deep craving to be attractive and to attract.. and to lose themselves in intensity over and over.. so they might connect intensely with one, then when that person goes home , have another intense conversation focused on one other. Whereas Sp/Sx doesn't need that, so when they hone in on someone, it's with complete blinders to all other humans. If you're not into putting eggs in one basket, I would rule out Sp/Sx once and for all.


----------



## Catwalk

Animal said:


> And I don't throw the word "unique" around lightly, either.


Perhap(s) take it as a _demonstration_ of (8w7 - with SO) in relation to "lightness" and "heaviness" - in action of some sort - _slinging the heavy shit lightly_, a _bowling ball_ full of air, keeping things communal, keeps communication (open) - interesting to mitigate any possible tediousness/unnecessary complications that could arise via highly intimate settings, and welcoming for any other specimens who wish to the _play the game_ - but do not have large enough "ball weights," to knock over any intriguing pins - but have interesting knowledge to share, for the *time being*, keeps _things functional_, communication efficient & the ball moving, unless there is a need for it _not to be_, and at all that... h:




> Socially, it's cool if people go all out, say some straight-forward stuff that would shock other people. I grew up with a 7w8 784 father, an ex famous rockstar.. he says whatever he wants, even if it breaks the world. So I'm used to it. And he has a sharp brain too.. cuts you open if he wants, then makes you laugh even while you want to be angry. He used to come out on the streets when I was hanging out as a young teen and yell out annoying things like "my cute little girl is all grown up with her friends!" to try to embarrass me in public, and instead of getting upset I gave it right back to him. Not much can shock me after growing up with him.
> 
> 
> But, if someone is interested in me sexually, and.. let's say I'm interested for a moment.. but then he starts saying something too explicit, too fast, and it's too overtly sexual or "I want you" ... I figure he's not really into me. Because it was too easy for him to say that. If he was into me for real he'd be a little nervous. If he's just saying whatever he wants, I'm replaceable to him. And that's basically what you're describing. The specimens are replaceable, all the same. I refuse to be that - I need to be unique in his eyes. So if he's too blatant or assertive without any vulnerability, he can't have my.. "honey."


I can relate to both of these in different degrees; &, I reckon it is opposite for myself regarding the last bit, that any lack of display of overt sexual attraction - or any form of ambiguity left, is often an indicator of "_sexual disinterest,_" (re: male-sexuality), treating it overtly as he is aware of my honey, as a _undeniable truth _- &, I am not so much concerned with it "being unique," to him -- as I feel this is a growing process (as it is for myself), to unfold instinctively at it's own discretion, &, also leaves room for future surprises / spontaneouity - as I generally get bored with ease with sexual/romantic interests, even if we "fit" great, so this leaves room for myself to maintain an interest; _yet to be wow'd / intrigued _by surface-value,_ slow-release_ fogging, with a this slow-release of vulnerability & building, and regardless of the ones own persona, unique interests, or "distinct," _attributes_ that separate them from a collective locality, in general -- I still find them replaceable, and I reckon it is true I am in their eyes as well, I am sure many females have the_ same size tits_ as myself, although, my approach for romantic, rather sexual interest seem(s) to run adjacent to what you describe above.




> Yeah, I think it's Sx last still. Because anyone, any stack, can be intense. Most people would call Trump 'intense' in some way and he's Sp/So. Rookies type him at Sx because he's "intense" but that's a noob mistake.. he blurts out "I grab them by the pussy" and has no subtlety or vulnerability in that area. He's all money-drive and social drive. Big business guy. But, 8w7, balls out, intense, crazy. And it's shallow in terms of connection or intimacy. There are so many videos where he completely forgets his wife is standing next to him.


Trump is a _humorous_ character,* indeed *-- Trump is likely_ very intimate/vulnerable_ with his wife in private (a reluctance) to display this into the media - I suppose in this regard, I can relate. The media needn't know my wife and I have a 'demonstrably' great sex life, or "have a great relationship," overall... Only we need to know; as far as when we're in public, well, anything goes that does not display anything related -- tapping into (SX) being a private/intimate affair -- rather than to be openly admired by random eyes. 

In relation to Trump, I have openly discussed [the best] ways to shave the vagina, and other topics - in inappropriate settings. (In the break room of course) and if I am solicited asked -- not simply blurting it out in the air, but simply in an unfiltered manner, the conversation had a propensitty to make that turn around the corner, I entertain it explicitly for the sake of it, I just stared at her blankly waiting for a response, -- it occurred to me later she likely found it a bit intrusive -- although, she seemed under great distress at the time, it only seemed best to do. 




> What it sounds like to me is you have big 8w7 energy. You're open because it's not intimate, it's just good fun, keeping it fun in the moment. And 8w7 will read as "intense" to most people because it's big energy needing to be met. But you don't want to "penetrate" into the person.. Sp/Sx is even more likely to hone in on just one person at the expense of all others than any other stack. Because Sx doms, at the very least, have a deep craving to be attractive and to attract.. and to lose themselves in intensity over and over.. so they might connect intensely with one, then when that person goes home , have another intense conversation focused on one other. Whereas Sp/Sx doesn't need that, so when they hone in on someone, it's with complete blinders to all other humans. If you're not into putting eggs in one basket, I would rule out Sp/Sx once and for all.


Makes much sense describe here, and countering nicely on what I said above (which I am now seeing you covered here), as I read closer about the (SX)-type; it appear(s) I may have been in error, I am obliged. Very abundant mindset for myself; "many people are better or exactly the same," to that one specimen I am with, in some degrees, but I am not so much impulsive to act on it - but rather not establish - or feel an incentive to release any quick vulnerability to begin with.


----------



## Darkbloom

Animal said:


> Sp/Sx is even more likely to hone in on just one person at the expense of all others than any other stack. Because Sx doms, at the very least, have a deep craving to be attractive and to attract.. and to lose themselves in intensity over and over.. so they might connect intensely with one, then when that person goes home , have another intense conversation focused on one other. Whereas Sp/Sx doesn't need that, so when they hone in on someone, it's with complete blinders to all other humans. If you're not into putting eggs in one basket, I would rule out Sp/Sx once and for all.


Jumping in again, this is very relatable to me in a way, but like...I mostly don't put my eggs anywhere, I keep them safe in my hands, I don't feel like I have any control over my eggs unless they are with me, once they aren't with me they might as well fly into outer space and I don't have any say in it, but also they are glued to my hands so I don't exactly fear them flying away, but sometimes I want to put them somewhere and that's when I have a problem, I'm used to my eggs being with me, when they are not I just don't quite know what to do with them.
But like in most situations I don't decide where I put my attention or how much of myself I share with whom, I don't really choose people, I don't decide "This person is unworthy", I used to divide people into people who I know like me/people I feel comfortable with and people I'm terrified of and never people I like/people I don't like, when I'm in a situation in real life my whole focus and everything is in other people's hands. I need to be very close to someone to be able to function differently, like most people seem to function normally.
But I am always looking for one person, if I could put my eggs into baskets I don't think I'd feel the need to have more than one basket. And once I'm hooked I don't let go, loyalty and undivided attention come so easily to me, with romantic interests I don't even notice anyone else... can't imagine liking someone, being with them for a while and then getting bored, I can't be with someone at all unless I'm already obsessed with them, it's torture.
And it's similar with friends too, I realized I've always been slightly skeptical of friendships, no one would or really should put their friends before their SO in my opinion and like...if we won't put each other before everyone else in the world then what's the point aside from just fun and fun is different, obviously people can have friends, there are people who prioritize friendships but I'm speaking for myself and like...generally it shouldn't be expected.

But also I am So-ish in sense that like this summer I went to a concert alone, was fine going alone, but then I saw an ex friend and I really wished I had someone with me partly because a)felt so awkward just standing there alone, came too early but then I bought cotton candy and all was fine again
b) didn't want to be weird and alone in front of someone from my past
But it's not just that one time, always hated having no one to talk to during recess at school when one or two friends I had couldn't come, not because I needed someone to talk to all the time, just didn't want to be seen alone, made me feel awful (but it was partly because of one annoying girl, every time I was alone she'd come to me like she wanted to bless me with her presence), or like I always liked putting as many numbers as possible in my phone so it would look like I had more friends, or like try to mention people in conversations, now it's more sad but used to just really enjoy mentioning people, get a bit jealous when someone is constantly "My friend this, my friend that", even here :blushed:


(not expecting a response, just got inspired again)


----------



## star tripper

Lol omg I'd like to apologize to  @Animal. I thought my extremely specific wording would make it clear I just wanted to see the reasoning process because I've hit a dry spell with Socionics/Enneagram and thought new ideas would revitalize me.

It turns out it just revitalized the thread. I did enjoy this low-key. I didn't know there were so many vultures waiting for the right combination of words to justify swooping. 

But yeah, I've not been able to see myself in really any Socionics type and I don't see you fitting any of the portraits either, so I knew you wouldn't let me down with slants. I'm questioning ILE-Ne myself. Alpha just sounds like a nightmare quadra to me lol.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm definitely less bored now.


----------



## Animal

star tripper said:


> Lol omg I'd like to apologize to @*Animal*. I thought my extremely specific wording would make it clear I just wanted to see the reasoning process because I've hit a dry spell with Socionics/Enneagram and thought new ideas would revitalize me.
> 
> It turns out it just revitalized the thread. I did enjoy this low-key. I didn't know there were so many vultures waiting for the right combination of words to justify swooping.
> 
> But yeah, I've not been able to see myself in really any Socionics type and I don't see you fitting any of the portraits either, so I knew you wouldn't let me down with slants. I'm questioning ILE-Ne myself. Alpha just sounds like a nightmare quadra to me lol.
> 
> Thanks for the explanation. I'm definitely less bored now.


Ahh it's so not your fault! It's on me that I chose to answer. I'm glad you enjoyed the fun 
You are super cool.

I'm not even sure of my sociotype by any means. PM me if you want! I have much more knowledge and experience with this system than it might on this thread, though I am struggling with my own type (and I do believe that's something I have to resolve on my own, but I won't stop til I get to the truth).. I'm not anything close to an expert or a guru, but I love talking about it..


To everyone else: will respond soon, didn't sleep, will not make sense atm


----------



## Asd456

@goldthysanura To be honest, I don't really take tritype seriously as I see more people getting confused trying to mold themselves into 1 of 3 heart, head, and body fixes. I think the rules are arbitrary and it doesn't work for me personally but I'll comment on what I think is relevant and helpful. 

From reading your post, it looks like you relate to a little bit of everything (which is common). For your head fix, I can't make out anything in particular. I could see 6, or it could just be the 3-6-9 connection. For your heart fix, wanting to authentically express yourself sounds like 4 to me. Wanting to be seen as "a good person" sounds like 2. The fact that people tell you you're nice and kind could just be your core 9 in general. IME, I find that 9's are naturally kind and sincere to everyone. In comparison, a 2 is similar but their motivation is different. IME, they want to be seen as "good" and helpful in order to feel validated and appreciated to fit their self-image of being "good" and "the helper" so they try to help people and do favors for them. 
@mistakenforstranger As a Te-dom, it's quite clear to me that you value Ti over Te. I hope you're not discounting IEI simply because someone thinks Ni is about mysticism, lyricism, or poeticsm and seriously considering SLI because apparently you notice sensory details. 



star tripper said:


> I did enjoy this low-key. I didn't know there were so many vultures waiting for the right combination of words to justify swooping.


If you seriously think vultures were waiting for the right combination of words to justify swooping from the provided context below, lol ok. 



> About LIE-Ni, at this point *I'd suggest that everyone simply impose any socionics type on me that they so choose. I've heard it all by now. I've gotten strong arguments from people for: LIE, ILI, SLE, LSI, ESI, IEE, IEI, and EIE.*
> I think that completes the list. Nobody but me ever considered EII for me. h:





> *Agree or disagree with my typing, break me down and twist me around all day.*


----------



## star tripper

Asd456 said:


> If you seriously think vultures were waiting for the right combination of words to justify swooping from the provided context below, lol ok.


I don't know who you are, but the other users literally always jump on her every time she references her type. The same exact users every single time. There are hundreds of pages of history documenting this in this very thread.

--

Anyway, someone said (I forget who) mistypings spread misinformation and that's why users get called out, and I definitely understand the reasoning and agree to an extent, but I think from some users, mistyping is invaluable. If someone is going around parading about as x type and claiming whatever they do applies to X and anyone typed as X must be just like them, and they stick with that type forever, yeah, that's gonna spread bad information. However, when you get certain users who try on a type, reason it out, openly state it's a possibility not an absolute or even say _nothing at all_ and just leave it in their signature -- that is good information. I've learned way more about the enneagram through long-time members mistyping. It might just be me -- I learn best experientially. Even seeing someone else experience a type and realize they're wrong and _why_ helps me. So even if a member like @Animal (I might just take you up on your offer) is mistyped hypothetically, I don't think that will impact people negatively. If anything, it just allows us to explore the validity of a new angle.


----------



## Asd456

star tripper said:


> I don't know who you are, but the other users literally always jump on her every time she references her type. The same exact users every single time. There are hundreds of pages of history documenting this in this very thread.


According to you, I'm one of those vultures given that I responded to her. 

For the record, this is the *first time* I offered her my honest thoughts and it was only because she literally asked for it. I'm aware of people questioning her type in the past. In fact, I defended her enneagram type more than once.



star tripper said:


> Anyway, someone said (I forget who) mistypings spread misinformation and that's why users get called out, and I definitely understand the reasoning and agree to an extent, but I think from some users, mistyping is invaluable. If someone is going around parading about as x type and claiming whatever they do applies to X and anyone typed as X must be just like them, and they stick with that type forever, yeah, that's gonna spread bad information. However, when you get certain users who try on a type, reason it out, openly state it's a possibility not an absolute or even say _nothing at all_ and just leave it in their signature -- that is good information. I've learned way more about the enneagram through long-time members mistyping. It might just be me -- I learn best experientially. Even seeing someone else experience a type and realize they're wrong and _why_ helps me. So even if a member like @Animal (I might just take you up on your offer) is mistyped hypothetically, I don't think that will impact people negatively. If anything, it just allows us to explore the validity of a new angle.


We're in agreement here.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> Well.. silence.
> What else is new.. any time I ask about _you_, silence. @*mistakenforstranger*
> Since you've been so generous as to offer your opinion on my type countless times despite my repeated requests not to be typed, I might as well return the favor.


:winetime:



Animal said:


> You are constantly referencing sources - you are not Te poLR. There is no mysticism, poeticism or lyricism to indicate IEI, nor any long term vision or attention to development over time to indicate Ni valuing in you.


Te PoLR doesn't mean one can't reference sources. It manifests as believing in things that have no basis in factual reality, in addition to a complete lack of practicality. If you want to see an example of Te PoLR, YouTube Shirley Maclaine (IEI), or also see this clip of an IEI character:






You're right that Ni is development over time, which is exactly how I notice the changes in your typings and lay out the patterns for you. If you must know, I even showed an example of Ne-ignoring a few posts back, and I would add, in regards to your own use of Ne! 



mistakenforstranger said:


> This makes absolutely no sense, and somehow also trying to find a way to fit one's square peg in the round hold every time?? *Isn't it better to speak the truth than to entertain notions that will lead to nowhere? *


I wanted to say "ridiculous notions", but I thought that you would take offense to it. Though, that's how we tend to view our ignoring function. It's unnecessary information. 



> It lies in the subconscious as a persistent annoyance to the individual. Therefore, he or she tries to ignore it. When lectured by another on the use of the ignoring function, the individual sees it as superfluous information, for he or she knows how to use the function well, but chooses not to use it in favor of his or her more convenient base function.


Ne, or the "I want to explore this type" function! As you said earlier:



Animal said:


> Many people have typed me at ENFJ due to my Je-Ni temperament and their assessment that I *had* to be a feeler. I'm not against considering ENFJ *(in fact, I am in the process of exploring that as an alternate)* but many aspects don't add up.





Animal said:


> In the first place, you said I would be one of two types, without giving any reasons except that due to your secondary instinct you didn't relate to some quotes. *Did you really expect that would persuade me away from a typing I've been exploring for months in a system I've been exploring deeply for several more months?*


Again, you attribute your own Ne to apply to Ni, or at least you understand Ni here in terms of Ne. There is nothing exploratory or bright-eyed about Ni. That's Ne. 



Animal said:


> I don't sense the entrepreneurial spirit in your posts. *You don't have that bright-eyed exploratory vibe that I'd associate with Ni creative* (which, by definition, is accompanied by Ne demonstrative - making the type a fast talker about ideas)





Animal said:


> Your behavior on this thread alone could not be more opposite this description - and this is only one of many such descriptions.


LOL, if you want to believe that description is accurate of an IEI, then you can do so, but what did you say again?



Animal said:


> The reason I'm not taking suggestions is not that I'm terrified of someone thinking I'm mistyped or that I need to convince anyone, *but rather, that I don't gain anything from bouncing my own ideas against the stereotypical, paired-down versions of types on this forum, which are based mostly on "I relate/I don't relate" statements made by mistypes, and misunderstanding or shallow coverage of the material.*


So, how are you not engaging in the same shallow coverage of the material by comparing me to a stereotypical, pared-down description of a type? Study how the functions actually manifest, and then get back to me.



Animal said:


> According to Jung, or any other source, Ni is rather detached from the immediate events around it... there's a sense that the Ni dom is attuned to something beyond the immediate.


Yeah, well Jung is right, but how would you get that sense of me from over the internet? Yes, something beyond the immediate, you want an example of an IEI talking about this...? I recommend his books, and I would think he's a 4w5 too.








Animal said:


> This sounds nothing like you. And you may argue: but I'm an enigma, I don't even talk about myself!


Oh, you think I'm an enigma! I'm so flattered. 4w5s are the enigmas. 4w3s are the divas. I'm glad you recognize which one I am...



Animal said:


> However, you are attuned to the nitty gritty "gotchas" and specifics in people's posts, which indicates strong Si, but not Ni base. You notice the ruses, the inconsistencies in your immediate reality. You are not a voice crying in the wilderness, mystical dreamer and seer, etc.


Ok, this has nothing to do with Si. Why would you think so? It's Ti. Ti notices contradictions and inconsistencies, which you struggle to see in your posts.

For example, you said a few pages back,



Animal said:


> As a general rule, being different means separating yourself from humanity. And some people have a deep need to feel like everyone is connected, as they fear separation from the rest. *They* fear being alone, separate, wiped out of existence, lost, disconnected -- so the idea of someone severing their own tie to the rest of the world is threatening to them. Therefore - *they* react with disdain, snubbing their nose at anyone who dares to stand out. The tallest nail must get hammered down so that things can remain cohesive, orderly, and predictable, so there can be certainty and peace.
> 
> 
> These people need to feel connected to the world, and they need to know what to expect from it, so *they* may not even perceive anyone as genuinely "standing out," since to them, everyone must be the same, connected, human. So those who perceive themselves as different are deemed 'false' in their eyes. The idea of separate existence and individual expression is too damn threatening to their need for stability, peace and cohesion. In their world, things must be simple, 'just as they are,' with no frills, so that everyone can be the same, connected, and at peace together, walking the same walk, talking the same talk, collectively. This is safe, peaceful, predictable and thus, good.
> 
> 
> But here's the kicker: these people need to feel connected so badly that they close their eyes to the differences amongst people, so they are blissfully unaware that not everyone shares the same desperate, egoic need for connection, cohesion and norms that they do. They deceive themselves into believing that anyone who perceives 'differences' or creates drama and rifts in order to express individuality is deceiving themselves into believing they are different, while the cohesive, normal, simplistic, safe collectivist is the one who is 'honest' and 'real.'


To which you then replied to Coburn exactly one post later:



Animal said:


> What I see in your post is a lot of "they do this, and I don't like it." "They," "they," "they." What is your humanity?


So, Ti is one of your weaker functions.



Animal said:


> You are very focused on the tangible concrete facts in the here and now, to the point that you claim to see through "ruses" in other people who have no interest in your opinion.


LOL, seeing through the ruse is exactly what Jung said about Intuition. 



> Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity;* it peers behind the scenes*, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon,


I also can't really factually "prove" it, so there you go, Ni + Te PoLR...

Honestly, the entire Enneagram is a system completely devoid of Te.



Animal said:


> You also are not proficient in charm and attention to the emotional atmosphere to account for Fe creative. Your posts are dry, straight forward, and mostly filled with you correcting others for making mistakes. There is no attempt or ability to smooth over the emotional atmosphere or to turn it to your advantage in any way. There is just your version of facts, lots of referencing sources, and gotchas.


Aww, you don't find me charming? :crying: I would say it depends on the atmosphere I'm in and the "tone" I want to give off in my posts. I can communicate charm to those I want to, or if I don't want to, I can communicate the complete opposite of it, depending on what "end" I want to achieve. *cough* Ni *cough*

It's funny that you say this about Fe, yet once again fail to realize how this applies, such as seen in @*Daeva*, who comments on the emotional atmosphere, but he's an ISFP  Fe-ignoring. Please. I feel like I'm doing you a favor in a way, trying to show you the direction you should go, despite that you don't want to hear it. Does that make me the lone voice crying in the wilderness? :shocked:



Animal said:


> I would suggest SLI as a likely option. Either way, noticing these little details and sifting through them all the time is a sensor trademark.


:laughin: At least, I feel I'm somewhat close in my typings of you. I've never typed as an SJ in my life. The SJs bring me down, man. (I don't mean, you're a man; It's an expression. Again, Fe!) I'm pretty sure I met an ISTJ 1 a few weeks ago, and this was written in response to that meeting. It did not go well. Honestly, it really did feel like a Superego dynamic. I just do not view the world in the same way at all:



mistakenforstranger said:


> when you're in the presence of an actual Thinking type and you realize you are so much more of a Feeler because you want to connect with people on an emotional level. I'll sometimes test as an INTJ because I think I've suppressed a lot of my emotions over the years, and therefore can sometimes be cold (or, rather seem more cold than I actually am or want to be), or be quite the over-thinker when it comes to many things, but I am not merely interested in "Just the facts, ma'am" and pure objectivity. I need to feel it (and from others) too. In other words, you know you're an INFJ (especially if you are also Type 4) if you are a Romantic.





Animal said:


> Beyond that, your complete lack of discussion about yourself, lack of emotional wetness, lack of self-absorption, self-dramatizing, self-mythologizing, or naval gazing; mockery and skepticism of anything dramatic or personal, lack of unique "defective" image being shown, and lack of sensitivity to other people's vulnerable sharing.. indicates you are not a 4 core. You may say "but I'm healthy!" however, your insensitivity regarding the vulnerability of others and your lack of open-hearted "connecting to the world through honesty, unique personal insights and self-expression" does not reflect the high side of 4 either.


I think we've been over this before that what you see as a Type 4 is very different from what I do, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize you or others as one. No, I'm very far from "health" at this point in my life, which is probably why I'm such a crank at times. Didn't Jung say that about Ni-doms? The artist on the one hand, the crank on the other. Why does everyone think I'm a healthy version of the type just because I don't take the negatives of the type to be the only truth of the type? Yes, it's there, but that is only one side of the picture. 

It takes me a lot for me to open up about myself, and I certainly don't feel I'm going to do so among strangers on an online forum. Actually, I opened up a few pages back about my childhood, which is quite silly to me now at this point, so it wasn't _that_ big of a deal for me, but still we even connected over that and our similar feelings towards 3s, in case you forgot. You even said yourself before that you've struggled with talking about yourself at first, and because of it, others mistyped you in the beginning too. With 4s (and all heart types), it's about shame and identity, and you know it too. Not self-dramatizing, self-absorption, etc. Those are mere window dressings of the type. 



Animal said:


> You may say "but I'm healthy!" however, your insensitivity regarding the vulnerability of others and your lack of open-hearted "connecting to the world through honesty, unique personal insights and self-expression" does not reflect the high side of 4 either.


I don't think I'm insensitive if I see someone is actually sharing their real personal struggles, but whenever we're talking about one's type, I tend to forget that since I don't find discussions about one's type (in an intellectual sense) "personal". It becomes more about truth and accuracy at that point.

I would also add that you weren't the most sensitive towards me and others during our discussions about how I and others related to Bowie, but I don't want to dig that up again. Does that make you not a 4? 



Animal said:


> I would suggest 6w5, with the constant attention on other people's supposed inconsistencies and lies. Your skepticism is ever-present, whether healthy or unhealthy. The sharp knives of skeptical 6 slice right through everyone's inconsistencies and lies on a constant basis, detecting their bullshit relentlessly whether they welcome your insights or not.


Ok, I can see why you came to this conclusion based on my behavior towards you. If I would've suggested any alternative typing for myself, I would've expected 1w9, as I think I can come across rather 1-ish on here, even though I am nothing like a 1 in real-life. Perhaps what you see as "skepticism" I see as the authenticity bias, remember? :wink: Though, I don't consciously focus on authenticity per se, only in the sense that I value truth. What did Keats say? Beauty is truth, truth beauty. Though, the truth is more often ugly and painful.



> They [4w3] have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". *They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.*


Is that my Te again? h:


----------



## star tripper

Asd456 said:


> According to you, I'm one of those vultures given that I responded to her.
> 
> For the record, this is the *first time* I offered her my honest thoughts and it was only because she literally asked for it. I'm aware of people questioning her type in the past. In fact, I defended her enneagram type more than once.
> 
> 
> 
> We're in agreement here.


That's why I said I don't know you and clarified that the people who circle the thread and wait for her to mention her type are the vultures. I don't agree with a lot you said and did in this thread, but my post was about the people who jump to the quote button like clockwork.

And awesome. Animal is generally a good source for typing information. She is not like that one guy who types fictional characters based on the actor's "microexpressions" (*cough* Jeremy). So I don't understand why she of all people gets pounced upon every time she breathes the words "my type."


----------



## Paradigm

@mistakenforstranger @Hermetica @Animal @Daeva (and probably a few others, idk)
Can you guys stop trying to get this thread shut down once a month? It's getting old. *Stop replying to each other* if you can't deal with each other's conclusions. Most of your "corrective information" is getting lost in the drama, which means it's not helping anyone and ultimately just clogging up the thread from the people who do want help or respectful discussion. There's been a crap-ton lost (of people, of info, of discussions) just because of this reoccurring noise.

Stop it.

Edit: And no, I don't care who is right or who is insulting who, just *stop fueling the damn fires.*


----------



## Paradigm

goldthysanura said:


> I very much want to be a "good person"--not just to be seen as one but to really be one deep down. I feel ashamed when I don't think I'm "good" but what "good" means varies from day to day and it often means I've made a moral mistake which I'm hard on myself about, but it can also mean that I am not "good enough at" something or not talented enough. Or not creative enough.


How do you react to that shame (or is it something other than shame?) when you don't live up to your expectations? Like, what do you think, how do you feel others will react, how do you stop feeling ashamed, how do you fix it, etc? The question is really broad, so trying to narrow it down a bit for you xD

Edit: And what does it mean to you to "be a good person?" You say it varies - how does it vary, what would be the changes? Are there any conditions for it to change up? Are there any values you always follow?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

star tripper said:


> And awesome. Animal is generally a good source for typing information. She is not like that one guy who types fictional characters based on the actor's "microexpressions" *(*cough* Jeremy)*. So I don't understand why she of all people gets pounced upon every time she breathes the words "my type."


:crying:

(I used to be so annoyed with that guy, but now that he's gone, I kinda miss him)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Asd456 said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* As a Te-dom, it's quite clear to me that you value Ti over Te. I hope you're not discounting IEI simply because someone thinks Ni is about mysticism, lyricism, or poeticsm and seriously considering SLI because apparently you notice sensory details.


No, I wasn't really considering it, as you can tell from my latest post. That isn't to say that I don't ever reconsider my type, but SLI is one of the last types I would ever consider for myself. 

If you'd like, can you explain how you see me as Ti in regards to your Te? 

Thank you, your post was like a cold glass of water after I've been dragging myself for days across a barren desert, or maybe I'm just thirsty from all this haha?


----------



## star tripper

Remnants said:


> :crying:
> 
> (I used to be so annoyed with that guy, but now that he's gone, I kinda miss him)


He single-handedly made me more tolerant of other users. A real legend. And in all honesty, he was fun (compared to say Sparky who was just a big question mark).

By the by, since there was a request for more self-absorbed posts (just gonna take it out of context), if my behavior here inspired a hot take on my type, I'd be into that. But literally only because I don't wanna be bored with Enneagram anymore.


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> @mistakenforstranger @Hermetica @Animal @Daeva (and probably a few others, idk)
> Can you guys stop trying to get this thread shut down once a month? It's getting old. *Stop replying to each other* if you can't deal with each other's conclusions. Most of your "corrective information" is getting lost in the drama, which means it's not helping anyone and ultimately just clogging up the thread from the people who do want help or respectful discussion. There's been a crap-ton lost (of people, of info, of discussions) just because of this reoccurring noise.


Counter-point: do not stop, it is much more entertaining than the usual 

_______________________
@mistakenforstranger wanted to throw in that I agree with your assessment of the functions and such, and I do think you're an INFJ, won't comment on Animal part of discussion since she doesn't want it (don't have strong final opinion) but you brought up some good points I thought
_______________________
@Asd456 and @Animal, clearly there was an initial misunderstanding in that you Animal were saying 'don't discuss my type' and you Asd interpreted it as throwing down the gauntlet or inviting comment, to my eye it was perfectly unintentional on both sides


----------



## Asd456

@Nissa Nissa Lol. I'm sure this has been an entertaining show for everyone. I mean I was only quoting her verbatim but at this point it's like beating a dead horse again and again so I think it's best if we just leave it alone. 
@mistakenforstranger Lol, thanks.

I do not think Te is valued in your ego block to qualify for SLI.

In its simplest form, Te is the objective and the tangible - the dry, boring facts. Contrary to stereotypes, it is not just about citing a few external sources here or there. If you value Te in your ego block, you'll be comfortable and prefer to rely on evidence to build your reasoning in a consistent, linear way. It is systematic like a production company building parts in a manufacturing plant. I do not see that you use evidence based reasoning in a consistent, methodical way (sorry, lol). What I do see is that when you use external information, it's either too much or too little, sporadic and inconsistent to the overall argument. So I can entertain IEI and Te polr for you. Te polr can be entirely dismissive of external data in favor of their own subjective framework and outlook and/or rely on it too much without any real direction and focus.


----------



## Asd456

@mistakenforstranger I'll explain IEI's valued Ti in a later post (when I have more time) but hopefully that makes sense to you.


----------



## Chesire Tower

@*Asd456*, I know you probably don't know me (also @*ches*ire Tower )but I have been struggling with definitively determining my MBTI type for like forever. If you would be so kind as to read some of my posts to see which functions I value and which I do not; that would be very much appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> Counter-point: do not stop, it is much more entertaining than the usual


Hahaha! I love that at least someone here wants front row seats.










:Smilies3::Smilies3::Smilies3:



Nissa Nissa said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* wanted to throw in that I agree with your assessment of the functions and such, and I do think you're an INFJ, won't comment on Animal part of discussion since she doesn't want it (don't have strong final opinion) but you brought up some good points I thought


Why thank ye, and glad that you found the post helpful (even with all the snarkiness).


----------



## Turi

Te sux and what happened to this thread haha.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Asd456 said:


> In its simplest form, Te is the objective and the tangible - the dry, boring facts.


Yes, Te in a nutshell...












Asd456 said:


> Contrary to stereotypes, it is not just about citing a few external sources here or there. If you value Te in your ego block, you'll be comfortable and prefer to rely on evidence to build your reasoning in a consistent, linear way. It is systematic like a production company building parts in a manufacturing plant.


Can you give me an example of how you do this? It doesn't necessarily have to be from this thread, but just so I see how this works in you. Though, I do think I saw this earlier when you were discussing Jack London, if that's sufficient:



Asd456 said:


> To answer your question:
> 
> 
> 1. Apparently, Jack London was born in 1876. I'm a millennial.
> 
> 
> 2. Socioeconomic status
> 
> 
> 3. Gender
> 
> 
> 4. Upbringing
> 
> 
> 5. Religion
> 
> 
> 6. Ideology
> 
> 
> 7. Enneagram type and instinctual stacking. You stated that his quotes fit your father and ENTJ Sp-doms. I can't possibly agree with you. I know a few ENTJ and LIE type 3s Sp/Sx and ENTJ and LIE type 6 Sx/Sp. They are nothing like those quotes.


It's interesting because I don't think I would've taken it in this direction in response to that question of why you don't relate to Jack London and his quotes? I would've said, how do we even know Jack London is an ENTJ? Those quotes certainly don't suggest that he is. There's no mention of efficiency, productivity, etc. that I would expect from an ENTJ. Te is business logic. This is completely missing from every single quote of his.

As I was saying before, The Enneagram is a very non-Te system, so how do you apply your Te in this context? Te wants to put things to use, and The Enneagram is about one of the most useless (in a non-productive sense; Seriously, it is haha) systems out there. Socionics may be a little less useless, but still pretty useless too.



Asd456 said:


> I do not see that you use evidence based reasoning in a consistent, methodical way (sorry, lol).


Haha, I don't mind. What do you mean by "evidence based reasoning" here, or rather what constitutes "evidence" from your perspective as a Te? 



Asd456 said:


> What I do see is that when you use external information, it's either too much or too little, sporadic and inconsistent to the overall argument. So I can entertain IEI and Te polr for you. Te polr can be entirely dismissive of external data in favor of their own subjective framework and outlook and/or rely on it too much without any real direction and focus.


Interesting, because I tend to think my quotes that I use are relevant to my argument. Though, I have often said, you can ignore the quotes I post, as I merely use them as a support and they don't really add anything to what I've already stated. 



Asd456 said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* I'll explain IEI's valued Ti in a later post (when I have more time) but hopefully that makes sense to you.


No problem, and I look forward to it. Appreciate the feedback.



Merry Magdalene said:


> @*Asd456*, I know you probably don't know me (also @*ches*ire Tower )but I have been struggling with definitively determining my MBTI type for like forever. If you would be so kind as to read some of my posts to see which functions I value and which I do not; that would be very much appreciated. Thanks.


I've always thought you were a IEI, but it's been a while since I've seen your posts to say for certain. Ah, and a fellow 145!


----------



## Chesire Tower

mistakenforstranger said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Te in a nutshell...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you give me an example of how you do this? It doesn't necessarily have to be from this thread, but just so I see how this works in you. Though, I do think I saw this earlier when you were discussing Jack London, if that's sufficient:
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting because I don't think I would've taken it in this direction in response that question of why you don't relate to Jack London and his quotes? I would've said, how do we even know Jack London is an ENTJ? Those quotes certainly don't suggest that he is. There's no mention of efficiency, productivity, etc. that I would expect from an ENTJ. Te is business logic. This is completely missing from every single quote of his.
> 
> As I was saying before, The Enneagram is a very non-Te system, so how do you apply your Te in this context? Te wants to put things to use, and The Enneagram is about one of the most useless (in a non-productive sense; Seriously, it is) systems out there.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, I don't mind. What do you mean by "evidence based reasoning" here, or rather what constitutes "evidence" from your perspective as a Te?
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, because I tend to think my quotes that I use are relevant to my argument. Though, I have often said, you can ignore the quotes I post, as I merely use them as a support and they don't really add anything to what I've already stated haha.
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, and I look forward to it. Appreciate the feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've always thought you were a IEI, but it's been a while since I've seen your posts to say for certain. Ah, and a fellow 145!


I still think I am but I keeping getting NT on a lot of tests. Yeah, what frustrates me so much about MBTI, is I am never able to feel the same confidence in my typing as I do in the Enneagram.

Like I think I do use Ni. I'm always trying to figure out what all the patterns mean and understand anything and everything from every angle possible but I can also be very strategic and results oriented. Maybe I used both Ti and Te? 

I think I'm bad at both Si and Se; so I definitely relate to having a Se inferior but while I do care about facts; they're almost always a backup for me to support whatever idea; I'm trying to put across. However, even though it sometimes makes me nervous; I think I'm good at Fe but am I showcasing Fe because it's my "preference" or because I think it's more likely to be get me what I want?

I almost always score high Ni, Ne and Ti on practically every cognitive function test and usually Fe is higher than Te or Fi but A. J. Drenth believes that a preference for Ti over Te, doesn't necessarily rule out INTJ or ditto a preference for Fi: INFJ; as introverts tend to feel more comfortable with the introverted functions over all. 

I also really hate extraneous boring details. Too much of that, and I tend to tune out. Talk to me about patterns and you'll keep me riveted for hours; talk to me about details and I may fall asleep on you. XD

So, in a nutshell; it's not the case for me, that the facts don't matter; rather they take a backseat to whatever subjective discovery I've made.

I can also tell you, that the number #1 comment I get on my essays are: "Excellent ideas, could be better organized". I can figured things out in my head but trying to articulate my process is sometimes difficult for me and I'm not often not even sure what specific process I used to arrive at my conclusions. All I can say for certain; is that they either make total sense and I attempt to articulate them or they don't and I try to avoid explaining it.


----------



## star tripper

Turi said:


> Te sux and what happened to this thread haha.


I created a monster

* *




'cause nobody wants to
see Marshall no more they want Shady I'm chopped liver
well if you want Shady, this is what I'll give ya
a little bit of weed mixed with some hard liquor
some vodka that'll jumpstart my heart quicker than a
shock when I get shocked at the hospital by the doctor when I'm not cooperating
when I'm rocking the table while he's operating (hey!)
you waited this long now stop debating 'cause I'm back,
I'm on the rag and ovulating
I know that you got a job Ms. Cheney but your husband's heart problem's complicating
So the FCC won't let me be or let me be me so let me see
they tried to shut me down on MTV but it feels so empty without me
So come on dip, bum on your lips fuck that,
cum on your lips and some on your tits and get ready 'cause this shit's about to get heavy
I just settled all my lawsuits
FUCK YOU, DEBBIE!

Now this looks like a job for me
So everybody just follow me
'Cause we need a little controversy,
'Cause it feels so empty without me

Little hellions kids feeling rebellious
embarrassed, their parents still listen to Elvis
they start feeling like prisoners, helpless,
'til someone comes along on a mission and yells "bitch"
A visionary, vision is scary, could start a revolution, polluting the air waves a rebel
so just let me revel and bask, in the fact that I got everyone kissing my ass
and it's a disaster such a catastrophe for you to see so damn much of my ass you ask for me?
Well I'm back... da na na na na na na na
fix your bent antennae tune it in and then I'm gonna
enter in and up under your skin like a splinter
The center of attention back for the winter
I'm interesting, the best thing since wrestling
Infesting in your kids ears and nesting
Testing "Attention Please"
feel the tension soon as someone mentions me
here's my 10 cents, my 2 cents is free
A nuisance, who sent, you sent for me?

A tisk-it a task-it, I'll go tit for tat with anybody who's talking this shit, that shit.
Chris Kirkpatrick, you can get your ass kicked
worse than them little Limp Bizkit bastards, and Moby
you can get stomped by Obie, you 36 year old bald headed f*g, blow me
You don't know me, you're too old, let go, it's over, nobody listens to techno
Now let's go, just give me the signal
I'll be there with a whole list full of new insults
I've been dope, suspenseful with a pencil ever since
Prince turned himself into a symbol
But sometimes the shit just seems
Everybody only wants to discuss me
So this must mean I'm disgusting
but it's just me, I'm just obscene
Though I'm not the first king of controversy
I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley
to do Black Music so selfishly
and use it to get myself wealthy (Hey)
There's a concept that works
20 million other white rappers emerge
but no matter how many fish in the sea it'd be so empty without me


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I haven't looked at the entire conversation but socionics is interesting to me - never related to any of the types perfectly. The only thing that helped me figure out my type is the relationship I have with other types. But then still, there is a lot to EII I can't relate to. One thing I know however, I have absolutely horrible relationships with xLEs, that is, if I try to get close to them. If it's superficial though, it works just fine. 

There's something else I have been thinking about - my friend often points out how *EIIs and IEIs basically have the same 3D and 4D functions*, just they are reversed in terms of conscious or unconscious. I have never particularly related to *Ni*, however, I wonder if this recent thing I have been experiencing is related to Ni at all. I have realized that I have rather good *intuition *about who I am, or who someone else is. And I mean, I guess it's always been there, but it's been surfacing more so lately. Sometimes I just get random out of blue sensations about suddenly "knowing" a certain part of myself, as if it was previously hidden and now revealed. Obviously, it arises from intuition, specially as Jung described it. It's something that goes on in the unconscious and then surfaces suddenly as an intuitive knowing. This happens rarely, but it does. I am constantly aware of this "river" inside me that knows more than I do, and that I need to get in touch with it as much as possible. I do not, however, do the whole "seeing things over time" thing. My intuition begins and ends with intraspersonal intelligence...if I can call it that. 

Take my type, for example. I didn't get a single part of it wrong, except for the the instincts. But that's because I was not ready to face that I was Sexual first, at the time. If I get such a "hunch" about someone else, I can feel various levels of confidence depending on how strong that hunch is. Even if my impression are misunderstood or misconstrued, it doesn't change my perspective. I haven't used this intuition as strongly on other, yet, though. I have a feeling it works best with "compatible" I guess personality types. However, in general it would still work well. If I am healthy and in the right frame of mind. 

Kind of going on a rant here but, I have heard from quite a few *INTJs *that they are seen as "robotic," a stereotype which I feel like is perpetuated by the view of Fe users haha. I just wanted to mention this because I see them as the opposite of robotic. They have this submerged passion just waiting to be ignited, and I can always sense it. Unless they go into very high detached mode, then I can't reach them. But yeah, INTJs = robotic? Made no sense to me ever.

My brother is *ENTJ-LIE*. I know this is just one person, but, i thought I could share my thoughts anyway, since people were talking about *Te *and LIE and such. I would say my relationship with him is of a convenient and well-understood back-and-forth exchange. Being that he is Fi-suggestive, he understands me, and never have I ever felt invalidated. I am the same way with Te, I guess. I don't use it but I will listen to the advice from a Te user and consider it. If a Ti or Fe user tried to give me advice I _might _easily feel overlooked and not understood. As for how he uses Te, there is a random thing but - I always tease him for how much of a nerd he is because he watches "academic" I guess YouTube videos where he collects random facts about phenomenons or whatever in the world so that he can "use it later." He very much has the "entrepreneur spirit," I have to be the one to ask him to calm down and get a life haha (all in good humor). He plans his day out - hell he has planned his life up to 35 years of age, as he has told me. He already knows every single subject he is going to take for the rest of his high school and exactly what grade he needs to get on each one. And then this one time he threw a fit over how there's a HUGE difference between 4.69 and 4.71 GPA, and he hates his English teacher and wants her to die. This is why I ask him to chill out being a 40 year old in a 15 year old's body haha. 

He is very cerebral, and I would say not forceful. He does have that "boom" sort of big E8 energy, however. But he also has an inner 2, in my opinion. I don't think Te is about dry facts collecting - I don't know if this was even said to begin with but, I just wanted to share this thought. He has a future vision for anything that will happen where he can conveniently pick up that one gear and plop it where it needs to be in order to get everything running effectively. That why he "collects facts." He is very ambitious and future-driven in that sense. But Te - as I have been told by someone else, also - is about *dynamic *energy. Te is when everything is running in the best optimal way. For my brother it's about getting to his goal as quickly and efficiently as possible. He always has his eyes set on the future, and always has gears ready to use whenever needed. This is Te-Ni to me.


----------



## Asd456

mistakenforstranger said:


> Can you give me an example of how you do this? It doesn't necessarily have to be from this thread, but just so I see how this works in you. Though, I do think I saw this earlier when you were discussing Jack London, if that's sufficient:


Yes, when I answered the question regarding Jack London, I was using evidence based reasoning. 



mistakenforstranger said:


> It's interesting because I don't think I would've taken it in this direction in response to that question of why you don't relate to Jack London and his quotes? *I would've said, how do we even know Jack London is an ENTJ? Those quotes certainly don't suggest that he is. *There's no mention of efficiency, productivity, etc. that I would expect from an ENTJ. Te is business logic. This is completely missing from every single quote of his.


That is Ti to me (why should I even believe in your external data?).



mistakenforstranger said:


> As I was saying before, The Enneagram is a very non-Te system, so how do you apply your Te in this context? Te wants to put things to use, and The Enneagram is about one of the most useless (in a non-productive sense; Seriously, it is haha) systems out there. Socionics may be a little less useless, but still pretty useless too.


They are two different systems. Socionics is about how you process information and Enneagram is about your motivations and defense mechanisms. 

With Socionics, it helps me to see how I process information by showing me the areas in which I'm lacking and how to improve my interaction style with people in a way that is more beneficial and effective. With the quadras, it's a pretty accurate way to group the positives and negatives in terms of how they relate to each other. I find the quadras helpful. It is a useful tool.

With the Enneagram, it's deeper and reveals to me my motivations and fixations. It's not useless in the sense that it helps me to see my patterns of behavior so I don't have to follow the same path because now I have a choice as I am now aware of my unconscious patterns and tendencies. 

So in a sense, if Te is about progression, improvement, and buzzwords such as efficiency and productivity or whatever, the Enneagram helps me because it helps me improve myself by showing me the areas in which I'm lacking regarding my unconscious tendencies. I see it as a tool for self-improvement and that is why it is useful.



mistakenforstranger said:


> Haha, I don't mind. What do you mean by "evidence based reasoning" here, or rather what constitutes "evidence" from your perspective as a Te?


Lol. Sounds like another Ti question as in seeking precision, clarity, parameters, definitions, etc. 

Here's the definition of evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

If we take my Jack London example, I answered the question by listing facts and reasons to support my argument. Therefore, my reasoning was reliant on evidence to support my position. In other words, the entirety of my list (7) supported my position to indicate the validity of it. That is how a Te user (Te in their ego block) values Te.



mistakenforstranger said:


> Interesting, because I tend to think my quotes that I use are relevant to my argument. *Though, I have often said, you can ignore the quotes I post, as I merely use them as a support and they don't really add anything to what I've already stated.*


That's what I mean. It's simply not valued as you prefer Ti over Te and it clearly shows. 
@Merry Magdalene Do you have a questionnaire or something similar? Maybe PM me and I'll try to help (it'll be faster instead of the constant back and forth quoting). @mistakenforstranger I'm a bit tired right now but if I don't have time to get to your question today or tomorrow I'll probably PM you too for the sake of time.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Asd456 said:


> @*Merry Magdalene* Do you have a questionnaire or something similar? Maybe PM me and I'll try to help (it'll be faster instead of the constant back and forth quoting).


Yeah, I made one awhile ago in the MBTI forum. MFS correctly typed me enneagram and typed me as an INFJ. It seems to me that I butt heads with a lot of Te users; so maybe I am correctly typed? :idunno:

but yeah, I will try to find that thread for you.


----------



## Turi

Merry Magdalene said:


> Yeah, I made one awhile ago in the MBTI forum. MFS correctly typed me enneagram and typed me as an INFJ. It seems to me that I butt heads with a lot of Te users; so maybe I am correctly typed? :idunno:
> 
> but yeah, I will try to find that thread for you.


Is butting heads with Te types a thing we do?
Because I've harped on about butting heads with Te types on here before.
I assumed there was a connection, for better or worse - exemplified by Te 'doms'.

Is the PoLR 'function' something that will always piss people off?
If it is, it could be an interesting one to target in questionnaires.


----------



## Animal

star tripper said:


> I don't know who you are, but the other users literally always jump on her every time she references her type. The same exact users every single time. There are hundreds of pages of history documenting this in this very thread.
> 
> --
> 
> Anyway, someone said (I forget who) mistypings spread misinformation and that's why users get called out, and I definitely understand the reasoning and agree to an extent, but I think from some users, mistyping is invaluable. If someone is going around parading about as x type and claiming whatever they do applies to X and anyone typed as X must be just like them, and they stick with that type forever, yeah, that's gonna spread bad information. However, when you get certain users who try on a type, reason it out, openly state it's a possibility not an absolute or even say _nothing at all_ and just leave it in their signature -- that is good information. I've learned way more about the enneagram through long-time members mistyping. It might just be me -- I learn best experientially. Even seeing someone else experience a type and realize they're wrong and _why_ helps me. So even if a member like @*Animal* (I might just take you up on your offer) is mistyped hypothetically, I don't think that will impact people negatively. If anything, it just allows us to explore the validity of a new angle.





star tripper said:


> That's why I said I don't know you and clarified that the people who circle the thread and wait for her to mention her type are the vultures. I don't agree with a lot you said and did in this thread, but my post was about the people who jump to the quote button like clockwork.
> 
> And awesome. Animal is generally a good source for typing information. She is not like that one guy who types fictional characters based on the actor's "microexpressions" (*cough* Jeremy). So I don't understand why she of all people gets pounced upon every time she breathes the words "my type."



Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
:heart:


I am not even typing at ENTJ or LIE, per se. I had it in my signature as I was considering it, and sometimes just having it there visually gets my wheels turning a certain way. I made an abstract post about my own highly personal thoughts, rather than do the function breakdown I have done elsewhere, because like I said many times in the post, I was not making a case and was not interested in anyone's opinions on my type. Like I said in the post, I was not going to lay out the depths of my thoughts here, because I'm not certain and I'm not trying to convince anyone, and I don't want to share my deeper reasoning on this board at this juncture. On top of that, I ended the post with a list of doubts about the typing, substantiating my repeated claim that I was not sure of my type.

So I don't understand why I've been gone now for over a day and people are still discussing my _consideration_ of a typing, acting as if anything I posted in that long post was an_ actual typing case_ (like the London quotes), and quoting me out of context. Even now, they continue to post and repost about things I said that they misunderstood (such as "impose your opinion") as a justification to continue posting about my type even after I clarified many times since then that "tell me how you type me" was not my meaning. I understand why the initial post was misunderstood, about "impose your opinion," but by now, I have more than clarified, yet they continue to yap on. There's no excuse for it anymore. 

And I am not typing anyone else based on how they do or don't "relate to me" as Type X, since I'm highly uncertain of my type and too new to the system to bring my knowledge to the public table (though I will say without remorse, WAY ahead of some of the noobs here who are passing themselves off as experts and typing others by relation to their own supposed "type" which I am not doing)... so I also don't see the harm in having it in my signature and sharing some conjecture about myself (which is not even a self-typing). I mean.. we're talking about people who supposedly study Socionics, and yet, say "How do we know Jack London is an ENTJ??" When Socionists literally refer to the type as "Jack" or "Jack London" because they consider him the prototype of LIE. It's okay to disagree, but then, admit you're not using Socionics and you're using your own system. Because if you're using Socionics, The type according to that system has three names: 1) LIE, 2) ENTj, 3) Jack London.

I could go deeper into their posts and reveal their misunderstanding of the most basic elements of the system, and tear their reasoning apart showing why their entire approach is insubstantial - but I'm not going to, because I'm not invested in them. I do that on my own forum, with people who are worth debating with. 

The problem with explaining the deeper reasoning behind my own typing is that it opens up the can of worms where these people will contest my definitions of the functions. So then I'll be here explaining why I see the functions that way, posting sources, quotes, Jung, etc; and I'll be stuck here for months. I have other more important shit to do, to be frank, than debate the very basics of a system that I've dedicated a lot of time to studying, with people who do not respect my most basic wishes not to discuss MY typing and who take my quotes out of context for the purpose of defaming me and making me look like a moron. Is it SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND, then, why I did not delve into my deeper thoughts here, and kept it at surface with some quotes? I think not.

But you are right, they do this every time I mention anything about myself. I hope they're enjoying hearing themselves talk, or watching themselves type as the case may be roud: .....about something I am NOT EVEN TYPING AT....

These people have no idea who I am, only a made up version in their heads, and they take my quotes completely out of context and re-interpret them to back up that made-up view of my character. That's why I don't care to debate my type with them. I wrote the post for you, and I'm thrilled that you enjoy it. I made it very very clear that my thoughts in that post were incomplete, and were nothing more than some inspired conjecture while I left out the components of my argument that would make it substantial.... why? .. because I don't want to debate it here.

I took the type out of my signature now, since a few other types are on the table anyway and I will avoid further confusion that goes on for pages and pages where people misinterpret and twist my words.

But damn, HOLY HELL. Lmao. I can't pretend I'm not flattered by the attention.

And no, I will not lay down and stop, sorry @*Paradigm* , people don't get to drag my name through the mud while I sit here silently. Sometimes I don't care what they say and just ignore it, other times I feel like responding - it's not me who doesn't like the conflict, it's you.
I didn't purposely start a conflict, but I will either finish it, address it, or wade through it in the way that is appropriate to me. The conflict isn't ABOUT YOU, so it's not your place to tell us when to post and if we should post or not. You say we don't need to respond to each other -- well you don't need to respond to it either. If you don't like it, you can just unfollow all of us til it's over. I really like you a lot and I think I've made that clear, but I don't like being told what I should ignore and what I should respond to. That is up to me.

@*Nissa Nissa*, you're wrong that it's a misunderstanding.
The first post was a misunderstanding, since she thought me saying "impose your opinion of my type" meant "I want your opinion of my type." Totally understandable. Yet I've clarified for posts and posts, and they continue to subject the rest of us to their unwanted opinions. So there is zero excuse for that - at this point it's not a misunderstanding, it's disrespect and flattery, as they are obsessed with me and can't stop talking about me.
And, I disagree strongly that any "good points" were made about me. The points made were not about me, but rather, about a made-up person that isn't me. Nor were they about socionics, but rather, a made-up system that isn't socionics. That is why I don't wish to debate my type here, because nobody is making good points about the system at all, very few people (and definitely not the ones disrespectfully talking about my type after I repeatedly asked them not to) are correctly typed, and absolutely none of them are responding to anything I've actually said or talking about the person I actually am. Even if they quote me, they respond to a meaning I did not have and words I did not say. And by saying they made "good points," you yourself are disrespecting my request not to be typed, because you are substantiating the content of their posts on the matter. If you have a certain idea of my type, you have plenty of places to contact me and tell it to me, without publicly joining in to the band of disrespect against me just to get in their good favor and play the good guy. Don't think that slipped my notice.



All that said, I don't have interest in responding to anything they've said at this juncture. Thanks @*star tripper* for keeping it real, and feel free to write to me any time. I will probably post more here in the future anyhow  but this particular conflict has become stale to me.


----------



## Rouskyrie

I'm still seeking opinions on my instinctual stacking, (And/or my core type) if anyone is interested. 
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1180169-who-what-do-you-perceive-me.html


----------



## Animal

Merry Magdalene said:


> Yeah, I made one awhile ago in the MBTI forum. MFS correctly typed me enneagram and typed me as an INFJ. It seems to me that I butt heads with a lot of Te users; so maybe I am correctly typed? :idunno:
> 
> but yeah, I will try to find that thread for you.


I see you as an INFJ, for what it's worth.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> I see you as an INFJ, for what it's worth.


Of course; you know how much I value your opinion. :heart:

but could you explain it to me function-wise? Because it's so weird to me how In keep getting INTX on so many tests. I'm wondering if I may have an F blindspot that affects how I answer questions?


----------



## Chesire Tower

Turi said:


> Is butting heads with Te types a thing we do?
> Because I've harped on about butting heads with Te types on here before.
> I assumed there was a connection, for better or worse - exemplified by Te 'doms'.
> 
> Is the PoLR 'function' something that will always piss people off?
> If it is, it could be an interesting one to target in questionnaires.



Hmmm . . . interesting. It may well could be. I was locking horns with this Te type for hours and despite both of our best efforts; pretty much getting nowhere. I considered the T type to be wholly unempathetic and unfairly judgemental and they considered me to be over-reactive and emotional. We just kept butting heads until we both gave up and realized it was pretty much hopeless.

I don't tend to have this problem with either Ti types or feelers in general and of course not ALL Te type but many of them. But yeah I do see how the PoLR could be affecting things. They view my Fe as far more emotional and reactive than is actually is and I probably see them as less caring and reasonable then they may well be. :idunno:


----------



## Animal

Merry Magdalene said:


> Of course; you know how much I value your opinion. :heart:
> 
> but could you explain it to me function-wise? Because it's so weird to me how In keep getting INTX on so many tests. I'm wondering if I may have an F blindspot that affects how I answer questions?


As I explained in my previous long post addressed to a few other people (I just edited), I am unwilling to discuss my own understanding of what functions mean on this board at this juncture. 

I know you respect my thoughts and I respect yours too.  But, to keep it short and sweet: if you are between Ni-Te and Ni-Fe, you often reach out to others for input on basics, asking short and sweet questions, really considering their opinion or seeming to. You don't put up the kind of resistance I expect from an INTJ. There are INTJs here who share their long, thorough breakdown of their inner workings and then bounce off others' input (like @V i x e n) , but there's more of a "I know what I'm talking about" and if you offer some knowledge, they are going to challenge it big time, on a theoretical rather than a merely personal basis. They might go in and explain what they personally do or don't relate to as well, but it will be heavily mixed with showing their own deep theoretical knowledge, even in ways that may seem offputting to some. You tend to default to politely and respectfully listening to people, until they cross the line at which point you will break down why they wronged you (or someone else) morally.

This does not mean you're less capable of logic or thinking, or that you aren't intelligent , or that you simply "accept input" with your self typing without question; because you certainly do exercise a healthy level of skepticism, and you have always needed to see it FOR YOURSELF rather than just accept a typing. But you are very confident in knowing how people ought to have treated each other, and you are a shining example of kindness and open-heartedness yourself (until crossed), and you decide how the interaction will go down mood-wise. Whereas you may take the theory home and think it through, but you don't seem to "set the tone and lay down the law" when it comes to discussion of theory.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> But you are very confident in knowing how people ought to have treated each other, and *you are a shining example of kindness and open-heartedness yourself (until crossed)*, and you decide how the interaction will go down mood-wise. .


:blushed: :heart:


----------



## Dangerose

@Animal I think you confuse people and I've seen it happening a couple of times because you come off very strong, 'lay the truth on I can take it' but then react very strongly in disagreements and treat things as personal attacks, you react in a very vulnerable way when people point out contradictions as well. I don't know why you perceived this as a band of disrespect, guess you have personal history here, but it's confusing and probably type-relevant that you talk so much about honesty, bluntness, etc., people who can't deal with the truth, and then react so strongly when people say something against your self-image, spin it that they're obsessed with you, etc. You were attacking other people's typings as much as they were attacking yours to start out and I don't think you're in the right or a victim here. :/


----------



## Daeva

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Animal* I think you confuse people and I've seen it happening a couple of times because you come off very strong, 'lay the truth on I can take it' but then react very strongly in disagreements and treat things as personal attacks, you react in a very vulnerable way when people point out contradictions as well. I don't know why you perceived this as a band of disrespect, guess you have personal history here, but it's confusing and probably type-relevant that you talk so much about honesty, bluntness, etc., people who can't deal with the truth, and then react so strongly when people say something against your self-image, spin it that they're obsessed with you, etc. You were attacking other people's typings as much as they were attacking yours to start out and I don't think you're in the right or a victim here. :/


It is disrespectful to have others comment on your type AFTER you said that you don't want your type to be discussed. It is both disrespectful AND AGAINST THE FORUM RULES.

Anything else is bullshit, and you are wrong to support it.

edit:


Nissa Nissa said:


> You were attacking other people's typings as much as they were attacking yours to start out


Didn't even see this at first. Why do you make up lies?


----------



## Animal

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Animal* I think you confuse people and I've seen it happening a couple of times because you come off very strong, 'lay the truth on I can take it' but then react very strongly in disagreements and treat things as personal attacks, you react in a very vulnerable way when people point out contradictions as well. I don't know why you perceived this as a band of disrespect, guess you have personal history here, but it's confusing and probably type-relevant that you talk so much about honesty, bluntness, etc., people who can't deal with the truth, and then react so strongly when people say something against your self-image, spin it that they're obsessed with you, etc. You were attacking other people's typings as much as they were attacking yours to start out and I don't think you're in the right or a victim here. :/


I didn't "attack" anyone's typing. I only addressed two typings - in the first case, the person said "I am a Te dominant, so I can tell you on that basis, you are not." Without giving me so much respect as to offer an argument for why I wouldn't be that type; simply expecting me to swallow "I claim I am this type and you are not." So I responded with a long, self revealing post about why I disagreed with the types she mentioned for me (though she did not bother to make a case, so I addressed it on my own terms, with no ill intent), then asked why she didn't relate to the quotes I had posted. In turn, she attacked ME very rudely and dared me to make a case that she wasn't ENTJ, so in my subsequent post I mentioned that I'm not invested in it but I don't automatically agree with her typing. 

The next incident I addressed his typing because he repeatedly addressed mine after I asked multiple times for him to stop, and I wanted him to know that I don't "buy" his typing either, because he mocked my thoughts about my own type over and over - and I wanted him to know I don't consider him a credible source of information about the types he claims. I could have just said that, but I provided some evidence to substantiate my argument, as I consider it more respectful to do that, and he and I have a longer backlog of rapport. However, I did not stoop so low as to MOCK him as he did to me, even when I offered a suggestion- so there was no "attacking" present. I did not even respond to his subsequent argument about his typing, because it's not my concern. I said my bit, he can figure out the rest for himself. He afforded me no such respect.

Other than that, I have not said anything about anyone's typing on here, unless asked directly, in a very long time. When I used to comment on others' types, I welcomed the same in return. 

It was very UNconfusing that I did not want to be typed. Other people might write stories about why I don't want to be typed, but it's unnecessary, as I have been VERY explicit and straight-forward, leaving no room for interpretation, but instead of reading what I actually write, people make up stories.

I made it very clear, more than once over the course of this thread, that I did want feedback about my typings in the past, until people used typing as a pretext to wipe the floor with me. I do want feedback and I welcome it elsewhere, but not here, because it turns into personal insults. That's why I stopped accepting feedback and I made that clear - it's not because I'm "turning a blind eye to the truth." It also has nothing to do with my "self image." These people do not understand the system, so their feedback on the system is useless to me, and even if they did, the way they talk to me is not compassionate - so why would I want feedback about something as vulnerable as TYPE from people who are mocking me? This makes perfect, clear sense, and I have outlined it multiple times, nothing confusing about it. Yes I want the truth, no I don't want to be mocked over my typing process, so I'm not welcoming it in this setting. The end.

And much like them, you have invented stories about me in your post. Typing myself in a system of numbers and letters has nothing to do with my self-image, but that's yet another fictional story being imposed on me by the people here. I have not changed anything about myself - my forum name, the content of my posts, the concepts I talk about, the topics of my confessions -- all of that has remained exactly the same. _The only thing that has changed is my interpretation of a system made by someone else and as I reinterpret that system, I apply it to myself differently._ So it's not about changing my "self image" - it's about labeling it differently due to updated data and intellectual integrity.

I also don't consider myself a victim of any kind.
The fact that they have directed their bullying at me and I am being honest about it, does not mean that I "feel like a victim." I am standing up for what I think is right, but I don't "feel" low or 'poor me' due to the things they say and do. I feel disgusted.
So that is yet another misinterpretation of my character, twisted through your own lens. 

As I advised some of them, I will advise you: stop making up stories about other people and take a deeper look at yourself. It's rather hilarious and ironic that_ you_ call _me_ "confusing." But no matter what you call it, and how many people thank your posts, I have been crystal clear that I do not want to be typed. If someone has a problem with that, they can tell me the problem, but it's still against the forum rules for them to type me.

No matter how clear I make it that I'm not interested in feedback on my type on this thread anymore, I keep getting feedback from the same bullies anyway (not feedback as in mere "typing suggestions" but STRAIGHT UP MOCKERY of a type I had brought up and my entire process and character), and getting it from you is unwarranted. I have reached out to you time and time again, but due to your twisting of my words, misinformation about my conduct (accusing me of "attacking people" etc), and encouragement of people bullying me, that has come to an end.


----------



## star tripper

Nissa Nissa said:


> @Animal I think you confuse people and I've seen it happening a couple of times because you come off very strong, 'lay the truth on I can take it' but then react very strongly in disagreements and treat things as personal attacks, you react in a very vulnerable way when people point out contradictions as well. I don't know why you perceived this as a band of disrespect, guess you have personal history here, but it's confusing and probably type-relevant that you talk so much about honesty, bluntness, etc., people who can't deal with the truth, and then react so strongly when people say something against your self-image, spin it that they're obsessed with you, etc. You were attacking other people's typings as much as they were attacking yours to start out and I don't think you're in the right or a victim here. :/


Meh people shouldn't give feedback when the person specifically requests no feedback be given. Personality types are a very individualistic journey, y'know? There are times when a particular group of people's input feels toxic, insulting, or suffocating, especially if the group and the individual have very different communication styles. If "the truth" harms someone's quest to learn the truth, then it serves no useful purpose other than degradation or the drunken sensation of being right. But there is no knowledge to be obtained there, only a hurt user and a closed thread. Besides, you and I both know the typing journey is weird. I know I stick random types in my signature to see if it "makes sense" intuitively lol.

And it is a little disingenous to say she was picking apart people's typing too when it was clearly a one-time case of "you do it to me, I do it to you." The point is if someone doesn't want feedback from a particular community, that should be respected.

And she framed it as being targeted because it's the same people at every opportunity. Even if it was all innocent, how can someone not interpret it that way lol.

This conflict has been a long time coming. It would be dope if this thread stays open long enough to actually resolve this instead of having the same chain of events happen every month. It really feels like those 8 Haruhi Suzumiya episodes up in this bitch.

Like seriously. Closing and reopening the thread changes nothing and guarantees repetition. Let's leave it open and let the actual people arguing continue. I'll bring the popcorn for the rest of us.


----------



## Animal

star tripper said:


> Meh people shouldn't give feedback when the person specifically requests no feedback be given. Personality types are a very individualistic journey, y'know? There are times when a particular group of people's input feels toxic, insulting, or suffocating, especially if the group and the individual have very different communication styles. If "the truth" harms someone's quest to learn the truth, then it serves no useful purpose other than degradation or the drunken sensation of being right. But there is no knowledge to be obtained there, only a hurt user and a closed thread. Besides, you and I both know the typing journey is weird. I know I stick random types in my signature to see if it "makes sense" intuitively lol.
> 
> And it is a little disingenous to say she was picking apart people's typing too when it was clearly a one-time case of "you do it to me, I do it to you." The point is if someone doesn't want feedback from a particular community, that should be respected.
> 
> And she framed it as being targeted because it's the same people at every opportunity. Even if it was all innocent, how can someone not interpret it that way lol.
> 
> This conflict has been a long time coming. It would be dope if this thread stays open long enough to actually resolve this instead of having the same chain of events happen every month. It really feels like those 8 Haruhi Suzumiya episodes up in this bitch.
> 
> Like seriously. Closing and reopening the thread changes nothing and guarantees repetition. Let's leave it open and let the actual people arguing continue. I'll bring the popcorn for the rest of us.


:heart: This is how I see it too. Thank you for sharing your insights. It was worth it to write those posts if only to see that you understand exactly what is going on in this thread. Every time I visit this thread, I end up worried about the future of human kind.


----------



## Asd456

@Animal I literally don't care about you. I'm not obsessed with you. I don't even know you. Understand that I was only responding to people. It's not about you. And now you're losing your shit attacking people because they're just pointing out what happened. It's weird. People are not attacking you, they're just pointing out the truth.

This situation is so stupid and pointless and I have a headache from following all of your contradictions. It's like a nightmare of never-ending inconsistencies and I just don't care anymore. 

Honestly, I hope you find some clarity and I hope you find your type. For some, it takes longer but I hope you get there.


----------



## Daeva

Asd456 said:


> And now you're losing your shit attacking people because they're just pointing out what happened. It's weird. People are not attacking you, they're just pointing out the truth.


Hilarious.
How about *no*.


----------



## Animal

Asd456 said:


> @*Animal* I literally don't care about you. I'm not obsessed with you. I don't even know you. Understand that I was only responding to people. It's not about you. And now you're losing your shit attacking people because they're just pointing out what happened. It's weird. People are not attacking you, they're just pointing out the truth.
> 
> This situation is so stupid and pointless and I have a headache from following all of your contradictions. It's like a nightmare of never-ending inconsistencies and I just don't care anymore.
> 
> Honestly, I hope you find some clarity and I hope you find your type. For some, it takes longer but I hope you get there.


The people who were obsessed with me weren't you. It's the people who followed me around for months or possibly years by now doing this same bullshit dance any time I write anything about myself. You just happened to show up in the middle of it.

I am not losing anything or attacking anyone. Get a grip on reality. You're mentioning me, quoting me repeatedly. I didn't even respond until now.

Thank you for the well wishes. I hope you find clarity and find your true type as well.


----------



## goldthysanura

Paradigm said:


> How do you react to that shame (or is it something other than shame?) when you don't live up to your expectations? Like, what do you think, how do you feel others will react, how do you stop feeling ashamed, how do you fix it, etc? The question is really broad, so trying to narrow it down a bit for you xD
> 
> Edit: And what does it mean to you to "be a good person?" You say it varies - how does it vary, what would be the changes? Are there any conditions for it to change up? Are there any values you always follow?


I'd say that there's temporary shame and long-term shame.

Scenario 1 of temporary shame: I make some kind of careless mistake that hurts someone else. 
I think: "Oh God, how could I do that? How could I be so careless? Is there anything I can do to make this right, or will that just make it worse?" I get fixated on the mistake, and I want to hide away from it, I want to hide away from people as a whole.
I worry that I have jeopardized my relationship with that person. I might turn to someone else I trust to go over the scenario with them, to try and figure out how bad the mistake I made actually was (usually not as bad as my reaction would lead me to believe), and to go over my solution to it. I think: how am I gonna make it right again? Can I? If I can't, it might affect me for a while. I'll feel like I lost something important.

Scenario 2 of temporary shame: I don't do well at something. For example, I give a performance and I feel I've done badly, or I go to a party and I feel like I'm a fraud.
This one is harder to fix. It sets off an extremely harsh and negative critical voice in me, and it basically just insults me for a long time about it until it gets bored. Again, my reaction is to hide away from people, and/or to try and seek some kind of support to get me through it. I try not to ask for too much validation though because it feels fake to seek it out. 
After a while I get back my innocence. I dwell in the shame for a while, beating myself up about how I did, but I can have hope again at some point, and then I try performing again or go to a different party. I tell myself, just relax. You're gonna do OK. Prepare yourself so that you feel more satisfied with things this time, and just be your authentic self and I'm sure you'll have a good time. I build myself up a bit.

then on the other hand there's the type of shame that's deeper and more insidious, and not really based on any current situation. that kind of shame, I find impossible to completely shake. It's the deep-seated belief that I'm not good enough, that I don't deserve a chance at life, that I don't fit in or belong, that whatever I do or create or say isn't up to my standards, that I should just leave the business of being a human to other people who're better at it. This kind of shame is the root of the temporary shame, which is just a way of expressing the way I feel about myself. There's this ideal I have for myself, and it's very painful to me when I see someone else who's the way I want to be and when I compare myself to them and fall short. I feel a sense of loss, the loss of something I could have had if I were a different person, the loss of a possibility. 

There's so much beauty in the world that I see, and I somehow feel ashamed when I'm not beautiful enough. Or not creative enough. Like...OK, I believe in something I call "the ineffable" which is that moment beyond words that you feel from certain kinds of art, or even from living life itself at times. that moment that goes beyond the mundane and that speaks to your heart directly or to your spirit or soul. What if I never give someone else access to that? What if I can never really grasp that for myself, never feel the way I want to or help someone else feel that way? That thought makes me feel hopeless and ashamed. 

Here's a song that I relate to a lot about shame...I listen to it when I feel especially ashamed.




"Shame is the shadow of love." When I care about something enough, the stakes are high enough that if I lose it, I feel shame. I wasn't good enough for it.

For the question of what it means to me to be a good person. It means I have to always learn from my mistakes, whatever they are. Treating myself well is part of learning from my mistakes, despite this painful shame I have to face; I've started to understand that treating myself with respect and care is part of being morally sound--since I believe everyone deserves love, even myself, as impossible as that sounds. And the same goes for other people...I'm trying understand better how I can be there for people in a genuine way, how to not be aloof to people, how to be compassionate toward other people's suffering instead of only focusing selfishly on my own. Sensitivity is a given but compassion and generosity take time and effort to develop, and wisdom to know when and how to employ it. That applies both to how I treat myself and others. I have to become more wise with time and I absolutely have to be honest and authentic. I can feel it when I'm true to myself and when I'm untrue. I don't live up to these standards a lot of the time, because of all my flaws, but...nonetheless those are some of the ideals I have.


----------



## Paradigm

@goldthysanura 
Good answers, very detailed 

I'm thinking 4w3/3w4 fix. There's not a lot of talk about anxiety and such, but I'd tentatively guess 6w7 based on how you describe interacting with others.

Sorry for not being very detailed, am doing dinner things.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Animal you should take a good look at yourself, if you could actually see yourself as well as you think you can you'd die of shame for your reactions here. No one is obsessed with you, except your poor, poor husband who is btw not helping your case with the way he acts.

Everything else has been said already, I was hesitant to say anything or even thank the posts I thanked because I generally like you or at least used to and I understand why you don't want people to discuss your type here, but I just couldn't stay quiet after seeing the way you reacted to recent posts where people were trying to help you and be as polite and gentle as possible.


----------



## Animal

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> @*Animal* you should take a good look at yourself, if you could actually see yourself as well as you think you can you'd die of shame for your reactions here. No one is obsessed with you, except your poor, poor husband who is btw not helping your case with the way he acts.
> 
> Everything else has been said already, I was hesitant to say anything or even thank the posts I thanked because I generally like you or at least used to and I understand why you don't want people to discuss your type here, but I just couldn't stay quiet after seeing the way you reacted to recent posts where people were trying to help you and be as polite and gentle as possible.


This post made me laugh out loud. Thank you for that.


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> This post made me laugh out loud. Thank you for that.


Who knew it would be _so shameful_ to ask to be treated with respect? Lol, poor poor me for having to endure you :heart:


----------



## Animal

Daeva said:


> Who knew it would be _so shameful_ to ask to be treated with respect? Lol, poor poor me for having to endure you :heart:


nooooooo


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> nooooooo


Oh! And by the way, "no one is obsessed" with you. Duh. _No one cares_. Clearly. :mellow:


----------



## Daeva

Signorina Misteriosa said:


> but I just couldn't stay quiet after seeing the way you reacted to recent posts where people were trying to help you and be as polite and gentle as possible.


You sure have an easy time staying quiet with the amount of disrespect shown to @*Animal* and me. Why the double standards, one would wonder, except I am hardly surprised. I wasn't expecting much moral integrity from you or your friend.

Oh, and I don't appreciate the insult, in case you were wondering, even if I laughed it off earlier. Again; double standards.


----------



## Animal

Daeva said:


> Oh! And by the way, "no one is obsessed" with you. Duh. _No one cares_. Clearly. :mellow:


All I need is you. The rest of the world can burn with hate, disdain, dispassion, "not caring" and yet feeling the need to comment anyway.. and whatever else. 











That said, let's not forget that outside this thread, we have SO MUCH love in the world! Maybe we'll start our own forum.. oh wait, we already did that and we have so much love there. :kitteh: And in real life... which is so much more important.


It seems kind of ridiculous but... we're only here for nostalgia. What else do we have to gain from this place at this point? We'd be better off letting them gang up together to repeatedly type, quote and lecture people they "don't care about."


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I am not at all shocked at the amount of pent up hurt and aggression, as wrong as the ganging up is. Anyways, I think we should get back to the topic of the thread, though. This ganging up has been unwelcome for a while now.


----------



## Darkbloom

Animal said:


> All I need is you. The rest of the world can burn with hate, disdain, dispassion, "not caring" and yet feeling the need to comment anyway.. and whatever else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said, let's not forget that outside this thread, we have SO MUCH love in the world! Maybe we'll start our own forum.. oh wait, we already did that and we have so much love there. :kitteh: And in real life... which is so much more important.
> 
> 
> It seems kind of ridiculous but... we're only here for nostalgia. What else do we have to gain from this place at this point? We'd be better off letting them gang up together to repeatedly type, quote and lecture people they "don't care about."


Then go be happy and enjoy all that love you have in real world, it sounds like you're very lucky, odd that you're still arguing here :butterfly:
Or are you that desperate for forum fights and public displays of loyalty and adoration to spice up your love life?


----------



## Maybe

Lalala Pause. La la la pause.

Closed for review for the 7th (yes, I checked, 7th) time.


----------



## Maybe

I'm *reopening this thread* with a few things to know.

-Sometimes it's unclear who wants advice on their type and who doesn't. (especially if they post in here often, a lot things tend to get lost) it's good to *ask them first* if you are unsure. 

-Let's say someone posted advice too you and they didn't ask. Don't attack/harass them, just tell them to not do it again. If they do, report it.

-If you are using this to say "well you're sooo insecure so you must be a 6" or some insult: *don't.*

-This thread always ends up in a huge mess that takes hours to sift through, report the issues ahead of time so it doesn't escalate further and we know what's going on.


----------



## Paradigm

Animal said:


> And no, I will not lay down and stop, sorry @*Paradigm* , people don't get to drag my name through the mud while I sit here silently. Sometimes I don't care what they say and just ignore it, other times I feel like responding - it's not me who doesn't like the conflict, it's you.
> I didn't purposely start a conflict, but I will either finish it, address it, or wade through it in the way that is appropriate to me. The conflict isn't ABOUT YOU, so it's not your place to tell us when to post and if we should post or not. You say we don't need to respond to each other -- well you don't need to respond to it either. If you don't like it, you can just unfollow all of us til it's over. I really like you a lot and I think I've made that clear, but I don't like being told what I should ignore and what I should respond to. That is up to me.


This was completely uncalled for, and you're disrespecting me by making up similar assumptions others make up about you. Don't be a hypocrite, and don't drag me into your crossfire just because you're annoyed by others - which, by the way, was the _second time you've done this in this "conflict."_ 

- I didn't "tell" you what to do. I _asked_ you guys to stop this soap opera and provided a solution. You could have made up your own solution that didn't involve taking over the thread, but you didn't.

- I didn't say that because I "don't like conflict," I said it because _the group I mentioned always gets the thread closed_ - which I was correct to assume would happen. And it doesn't exactly follow that if I "don't like conflict" if I would bother getting into the middle of it on purpose. Yeah, I don't _end conflict_ in a way you would define such, but that's a completely different conclusion than the one you came up with. 

- I actually do, and have in the past, respected your emotions on this matter. I could even agree with you on half of it, including you being "targeted." *You knew both of those things.* But you've repeatedly disrespected me this time, and you disrespected everyone else in this except the few who are agreeing with you 100%, and that's not how mature conflict works. You don't drag other people into fights that have nothing to do with them - and you have me twice, and you dragged everyone else (yeah, including the lurkers, and including other people who wanted real help without drama) by not letting it go.

- Frankly, I don't think anyone "dirtied your name" this time by questioning your understanding of a system, and even if they did in specific sentences, _you admit to taking things too far._ Everyone else (except @Nissa Nissa's ... cute quip) seemed capable of moving on after being asked to by others... Except you, and of course your devoted husband. And do consider, how is _anyone_ "dirtying" your "name" by (passive-)aggressively complaining about you on an anonymous forum? I mean, if it's more than that, that's a valid point, but go to the police instead or pick methods of control that don't allow them to engage you.

So... I guess you did get one thing right, I really should just put you four on my ignore list. Consider it done. Go ahead and perceive this entire thing as an attack, but it's one _you _provoked twice now, so I'm not really sorry. I shouldn't have even apologized for the one you made up the first time, except that I was willing to think it was an outlier. But it's clearly becoming a pattern, which I'm actually really disappointed about because I was hoping to continue a friendship with you.

---

PS: I realize this is just a continuation of the drama I'm complaining about, so I'm sorry to everyone else. I really am; it's not fair to you who wanted a "reset," and tbh the mods should be rolling their eyes. But I'm tired of the "resets." I'm tired of this happening _*seven times*_. So this is my own end to the drama. I will be ignoring any public responses to this post, as well as any other attempts of provoking drama. Discussions of theory and drama do not mix and suggest a bigger problem.


----------



## Greyhart

* *




this thread











@Paradigm with the amount of contradicting sources going around, what would be your take on difference between 6w5 and 6w7?


----------



## Animal

@*Paradigm*
I am truly sorry. I was wrong to act this way toward you.
I am also going to leave this drama behind. I hope you will accept my apology, but I respect any decision you make.


----------



## Animal

To all: I am calling for a truce. We don't have to like each other, but I don't want to continue engaging in any hostile exchanges. If you don't have anything nice to say, please ignore me, and I promise I will afford you the same courtesy. This will be better for the forum overall, and I have nothing to "prove" or "gain" from continuing this. I hope you will take this well, because I mean no harm - I simply want to solve the dilemma by abandoning the argument and drama. I have no hard feelings toward anyone and hope to leave all negativity and "us vs them" behind.

Thank you.


----------



## Dangerose

Thought I'd put the type-related posts that might have gotten lost in the carnage a bit here for easy reference, if someone doesn't want to be quoted I can remove it


* *








Catwalk said:


> Original typing: SP/SX
> 
> Retyped to: SP/SO
> 
> Talking about my typing ::
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (SP/SO). (Although this is an unsure typing for myself....)
> 
> ___________
> 
> 
> (SX) is not a "blindspot," I just find it fairly intimate - impractical; to unleash without much incentive - '_close relationships for the sake of close relationships_', and find fixation on the "group" (social-aspect) of my encounter(s) makes it fairly easier to navigate my atmosphere without the overbearing fixation on "unmet" personal needs. Why get intimate with (X, Y, Z), why should I get 'deep' with a specimen for the sake of it? What have they done (?) Who are they (?) A family/friend (?) Eh, so what? Just another humanoid. And indeed, we can have_ just as much fun_ staying out of each others 'business', I assure you. (SX)-specimens can be _rather phallic_ - inserting themselves into crevices they do not belong, scavaging for food, attempting to caress your thighs open for_ any proof of honey_.
> 
> 
> In regards to my (SO) instinct, discussing affairs w/ other specimen(s) would otherwise find "too personal", come for myself rather openly; I can sit with a stranger I find intriguing and discuss anything at all, without this need to get "_deep within their soul,_" which does not particularly interest me - and I suppose this is an "intensity," of it's own, I reckon most specimen(s) find this 'too intense' when I disconnectedly discuss _intense things_ (or things unique to the SX-instinct blunt & openly with anyone - without the '_intense connectivity_' (SX's need) present with ease, which was always something I was critiqued on, "_you can't just go around talking about (X/Y/Z) like that, Cat_," & that it should otherwise be more "tactifully," considered - they tend to lock-up (&) hit the road when I start talking - so much for the '(SX)'-fetishism claimed; and even in this, I see no proximate issue since my (SX) isn't in it, (SX) is a tad too refining for myself; and tedious - (narrowing), I get bored with the same connection(s) & eventually fall off their radar/out of contact, since I have no drive to go deep within their 'personal' relations + form unique sacred bonds without reasons. My (SX)-last manifest(s) not as a "blindspot," but as a functional-unit when the _'proper' _specimen comes along to trigger it, not just any humanoid with multiple capacities for depth & all their capacities and 'deepness' are all being displayed - cool? I suppose. Although, for me, I see all specimen(s) as numerical digits with little differences. And indeed, not much into being 'deciphered / decoded' or coaxed into intimacy that seems unnecessary (in the openness of social-contexts) (re: outside of myself (SP-instinct).
> 
> 
> Stay out of my 'sexual' business; if you will, unless there is some_ unique reason_ why they should be investigating the boxes in my basement, which is stammered around in indecisiveness / uncertainty when questioned why (X)-specimen is even down there, in the first place. A deer frozen in headlights. Just felt like _'checking' out_ my basement, just fancy "shiny" objects in my boxes, eh? It instinctively, just never occurs to myself that we have to_ go deeper than necessary_ - if the interaction is _sufficient, smooth, and great as is_. Not really into sitting down and discussing everyone's Enneagram Chakras (&) having some humanoid palm read into my personal/private dimensions without incentive for getting "insight" into... _what, exactly_? (Assuming the specimen can coherently explain why without it reeking of too much of their own (_self-interests_); not interested in sharing my "personal-self," (SP) to a specimen 'personally' for no real reason whatsoever - but am willing to _participate_ in the realm of humanoid(s) at my_ own discretion_, because things are simply more efficient and easier to focus, when there is no (_sexual-_distractions), if you get gist.
> 
> And I suppose, I have no interest whatsoever in forming close, intimate relations with specimen(s) I do not know, even if we have "many things in common," it does not warrant a reason to get _intimate_ per se, as I have "many things in common," with anyone, and from anyone (SO), I can gain more knowledge / utility out of distinct types of humanoids - than fixating on one humanoid. (SP/SO) is simply_ self-care _ - without forgetting about the importance of your (position) within social-sphere. Everything that _you do_, has affects, - on the environment, on other(s) and (SO) is an _awareness of these affects_. My (SO) aims to appease my (SP); if I subscribe to _group dynmanics_ - this keeps them (satisfied) &, from _fucking with me_, when I do not wish to bothered. Room for myself, without being (socially-clueless / alienated) (&) reeking benefits.
> 
> 
> Introversion + (SP) induces more than enough "self-intimacy," [which may arise _a need to be cautious of ones needs for onesself_, which requires an attentiveness around the specimens in which I am 'intimate' with - or an attentiveness to the (internalized-structure), and leading with (Ni) of all things supplies any 'lost intensity', regardless, which mimics (SX) well enough], by default - thus, (SX) seems to cause imbalance within myself; to fixate and fetishize things that are _already taken care of_ - the only thing 'left' is perhap(s) getting naked - and (SX) last comes necessary with the right humanoids - and assuming the "majority" are all wrong, I can still find utility in them elsewhere in other social-facets. There is_ no craving_ to explore deep with psychological intimate realms of specimens - and milk all affairs of it's insensity for myself. Seems like a private affair; to be enjoyed in moderation & maintained _than spoiled_ - & any (SX)-exploration should be done only if there are_ good reasons_; and until then - (SO) is simply opportunism.
> 
> A main complaint of specimen(s) close to myself is I am so (SP) - (deterimentally secrative/frugal about privacy), but incredibly open to strangers - at the same time -- which seems [confusing] for most specimen(s), as I _go cold _the moment they attempt scooching closer. I tend to be relaxed around strangers, and "uncomfortable," around one-on-one milking with specimens just because, although, if you introduced (3) other humanoid(s) into the equation, all is fine - the attention is diverted, it is easier to communicate - keep things light, flowing, conflict free. I do not wish to be stuck giving therapy sessions on humanoid(s) I do not really care about. _I am all open_ to humanoids, until the specimen asks for a key to my place and attempts to thrust themselves into my space; this is my domain - and I will not share it without reason - and what "reasons" do you have (?) Humanoids are dime a dozen - abudance mindset; humanoids are everywhere - all functioning relatively similar, with mild uninteresting distinctions. I suppose it is somewhat [frightening] in a sense, it induces a tendency to be (blind) to the utility of "intense," connectivity (and that perhaps, individuals should be considered in more depth - rather than numerical digits), specimen(s) have feels, special passions, important "unqiue 'desires' to be split open (&) raw on the operating table - and I perhaps, slow down and warranted attentiveness to this.
> 
> There is not much craving beyond (SP) for myself to form reckless, randomized intimacy just because the specimen has a capacity to do so, well, any humanoid can "_talk about deep things,_" -- darling, does not warrant they are worth _spreading eagle _to. The "_all eggs in one basket approach_," is simply impractical. Cast a wide net and throw out the spoiled fish; and suck what you can from the exchange, all is valuable for moving forward. *No one is unique*, from my (SO)-POV, rather every and all specimens has _unique information to share_ - which is why it interests me more to be (SO-cially aware), than (SX), scrutinzing.
> 
> My (SX) instinct is for the specimen(s) that interest me - not simply this strange need to just 'be deep' for the sake of deepness; there is no genuineness here. Just curiosity; nosiness. No genuine desire to "know the humanoid," just a desire to quench their own (deprived) thrist for *intimate details*. Just want to know _the ingredients _ for a cake they are unsure about even (baking) with entirety. _No guinea pigs _ in this kitchen. Remember the basic social etiquette of not _drooling all over the buns_, other specimen(s) have to eat, too - wipe your mouth. _The bakery is closed for business_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Thoughts,_ darlings?
> *
> Let 1 = least myself
> 
> Let 5 = most myself *
> 
> 
> Social
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Generally, I positively associate with the idea of being a part of something larger than myself. Though I may find it either overwhelming, because of my astute awareness of what lies beyond my own interests, or inspiring. —*4*
> 
> 
> 2) I am very aware of the impact my decision will have on others and can be quite attuned to their reactions and needs. I read people well. —*3*
> 
> 3) Being recognized or valued by my peers or community, for my contributions, is important to me. —*1 *
> 
> 4) I tend to have strong opinions on social change and/or social constructs and trends. —*1*
> 
> 5) I am aware of not only my own relationships, but also power structures and the nature of bonds between other people. I have a deep understanding of interconnectedness between groups and people who comprise them. In other words, I am good at perceiving the many facets of how a group works within its context and outside of it. I easily pick up on how I fit into the social hierarchy, whether or not I approve of it. —*3*
> 
> 6) I am socially aware, but I can also be reserved and socially distant. —*5*
> 
> 7) If I gravitate towards group (s)/institution (s)/gathering(s)of my choosing, I can be quite involved with championing the values and goals of this grouping. —*4*
> 
> 8) I tend to keep track of current events, even when not required to for my career performance. —*2 *
> 
> 9) At my worst I am either strongly conformist or excessively anti-society/counter culture. At my best, my relationships with others are ones of healthy interdependence, and I may be inclined to strong individual leadership or display deep commitment in establishing teamwork and collaboration. —*1*
> 
> 10) "no man is an island." Everything is part of an interconnected web, like it or not. —*4*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Self Preservation
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I am acutely aware of my physical safety (though sometimes I will choose to do something dangerous anyway) —*4*
> 
> 2) when I go to a party, I immediately notice the temperature, the smells and where the food is—*2*
> 
> 3) I am very health conscious —*2*
> 
> 4) financial/career *—4*
> 
> physical security *—3*
> 
> and romantic security are very important to me *—1*
> 
> 5) if I have an injury or a health related problem, I typically notice quickly *—4*
> 
> 6) I tend to save a decent amount of my money —*5
> *
> 
> 7) predictability is important to me. *—2*
> 
> the sooner I can know about things in advance, the better. *—5*
> 
> 
> 8) when I'm under stress, things like health, finances, hygiene or other things that I normally stay on top of start to slip, sometimes severely. *—3*
> 
> 9) I'm acutely aware of cause and effect, particularly when the potential consequences are dire. if my friends listened to me more, they'd end up making a lot less stupid mistakes *—5*
> 
> 10) physical comfort is important to me. I can get distracted by things like uncomfortable seats, high humidity or bodily pain when I'm trying to enjoy time with my friends *—1*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sexual
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I have an addictive personality *—2*
> 
> 2) "if it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all" *—1*
> 
> 3) people generally think I'm "too much". in lots of situations, I feel like it's expected of me to tone myself down considerably (which I will either refuse to do or do so begrudgingly) *—3*
> 
> 4) my energy is either "on" or "off". when I'm in the presence of someone who I vibe with my mind does an internal "YES! FINALLY!" and I try to start a conversation with that person *—3*
> 
> 5) I can be obsessive with my love interests. I am either clingy or have to try very hard not to be *—2*
> 
> 6) I feel like a part of me is missing and am looking for someone to complete me. at times, this creates a raw sort of longing that can lead to emotional volatility *—1*
> 
> 7) I have strong impulses (particularly with regards to relationships). I frequently wish I didn't have to be so damn careful *—1*
> 
> 8) if I'm not in a relationship, I feel old. I don't know how it's possible for people to be happy without passionate intimacy, because being without it makes me feel dead *—1*
> 
> 9) I only feel alive when indulging my passions. sometimes this causes me to neglect other areas of my life *—3*
> 
> 10) people either love me or hate me, but either way, my personality grabs attention, whether I want it to or not *—4*





Catwalk said:


> *Likewise* with Animal™! I_ appreciate_ the feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mm.. yes, there are certainly _many things_ worth doing (that _needn't be_ done in excess)... so perhaps it is unique to (SX). Overall, I have a 'disconnect' (re: interpersonally) between distinct people, while acquiring a capacity to discuss personal (SX-related) topics and affairs, with a flow of cool, callous openness, while perhaps, (SX)-specimens need some time to for the "_all or nothing_," switch. I am simply_ all open_.. all the time, while paradoxically never being // having a desire to be vulnerably "_submerged_ / engulfed" within the other, which others respond to me either negatively - or "sink themselves," into my presence for comfort. Maybe the (SX)-folks; and this is the perception of "fire hot," when devising their personas.
> 
> 
> 
> I am open to the possibility I were confusing "SO" with "SX" - regarding my original (SP/SX); typing due to the fact I have an abrasive/strong sexuality, keen awareness of my body and aesthetics - and open-ward expression of myself (speaking flatly about sensitive subjects), and confusing this with (SX)-intensity, but it is really a keen '_hollowness_' (lack of SX) "intensity" that follows; if not a bit of shallowness in my interactions with others, I were misinterpating, that because my 'social humility' (re: ability to embarrassed) is relatively low - and because of this, I infiltrate / insert myself at my own discretion into many social-affairs, and socialize and/or lead people just fine, and haven't any desire, if anything, feel relatively uncomfortable in the traditional "_one-on-one_" intensity thing, I must've been (SX).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :smug:





Catwalk said:


> Perhap(s) take it as a _demonstration_ of (8w7 - with SO) in relation to "lightness" and "heaviness" - in action of some sort - _slinging the heavy shit lightly_, a _bowling ball_ full of air, keeping things communal, keeps communication (open) - interesting to mitigate any possible tediousness/unnecessary complications that could arise via highly intimate settings, and welcoming for any other specimens who wish to the _play the game_ - but do not have large enough "ball weights," to knock over any intriguing pins - but have interesting knowledge to share, for the *time being*, keeps _things functional_, communication efficient & the ball moving, unless there is a need for it _not to be_, and at all that... h:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can relate to both of these in different degrees; &, I reckon it is opposite for myself regarding the last bit, that any lack of display of overt sexual attraction - or any form of ambiguity left, is often an indicator of "_sexual disinterest,_" (re: male-sexuality), treating it overtly as he is aware of my honey, as a _undeniable truth _- &, I am not so much concerned with it "being unique," to him -- as I feel this is a growing process (as it is for myself), to unfold instinctively at it's own discretion, &, also leaves room for future surprises / spontaneouity - as I generally get bored with ease with sexual/romantic interests, even if we "fit" great, so this leaves room for myself to maintain an interest; _yet to be wow'd / intrigued _by surface-value,_ slow-release_ fogging, with a this slow-release of vulnerability & building, and regardless of the ones own persona, unique interests, or "distinct," _attributes_ that separate them from a collective locality, in general -- I still find them replaceable, and I reckon it is true I am in their eyes as well, I am sure many females have the_ same size tits_ as myself, although, my approach for romantic, rather sexual interest seem(s) to run adjacent to what you describe above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump is a _humorous_ character,* indeed *-- Trump is likely_ very intimate/vulnerable_ with his wife in private (a reluctance) to display this into the media - I suppose in this regard, I can relate. The media needn't know my wife and I have a 'demonstrably' great sex life, or "have a great relationship," overall... Only we need to know; as far as when we're in public, well, anything goes that does not display anything related -- tapping into (SX) being a private/intimate affair -- rather than to be openly admired by random eyes.
> 
> In relation to Trump, I have openly discussed [the best] ways to shave the vagina, and other topics - in inappropriate settings. (In the break room of course) and if I am solicited asked -- not simply blurting it out in the air, but simply in an unfiltered manner, the conversation had a propensitty to make that turn around the corner, I entertain it explicitly for the sake of it, I just stared at her blankly waiting for a response, -- it occurred to me later she likely found it a bit intrusive -- although, she seemed under great distress at the time, it only seemed best to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes much sense describe here, and countering nicely on what I said above (which I am now seeing you covered here), as I read closer about the (SX)-type; it appear(s) I may have been in error, I am obliged. Very abundant mindset for myself; "many people are better or exactly the same," to that one specimen I am with, in some degrees, but I am not so much impulsive to act on it - but rather not establish - or feel an incentive to release any quick vulnerability to begin with.





goldthysanura said:


> In the beginning, I was mostly considering 4 for heart fix and 6 for head fix, but over time I've started to doubt those. I used to have a misconception that creative automatically = 4 and that having anxiety automatically = 6, which caused me to identify myself heavily with those types.
> 
> I'm curious about the head fix. I kind of would expect that if I were a 6, then I would appear to other people to be security-conscious, but...well, I often forget to think about my personal safety, or remember but don't care about it enough, and I am unprepared for possible bad things more often than not. on the other hand, I have trouble trusting myself, and I like to get advice from lots of people before making a decision. I wonder about 7, because I pick up and put down new interests quickly, but my baseline of enthusiasm is maybe too low for a 7 fix and I can't relate that much to the 7's avoidance of pain--I find emotional and physical pain both very difficult to distract myself from.
> 
> I don't know as much as I'd like about the heart fixes. One 4 thing I identify with is wanting to be genuinely myself. When I was younger I obsessively fixated on the question of "who am I?" and "what makes me uniquely myself?" and I tried to figure this out by writing millions of sad poems, which I would constantly try to read to everyone I knew. These days I don't actually introspect that much, but I do need to be "true to my feelings" and people sometimes tell me that they like that I'm authentic. I want to be understood, for my bad parts as much as my good parts, and I am pretty frank about my bad qualities, sometimes to the point of exaggerating them. Part of why I write songs is to be understood or really seen...the other part is to feel alive, which I guess is more of a 9 reason.
> 
> I have this song I wrote about finding God in the desert and wondering what I should ask God, and then asking, "if you made me, then why'd you make me this way?" and then God says, "It's an unintended consequence of the genetics in your brain...but I gave them to you for a very good reason that unfolds every step of the way." but then I say that that doesn't really make sense, why would he bother making a species capable of such pain that's also so deeply flawed? it seems cruel. that is kind of how I see myself at heart I think...deeply flawed. But I also just see every person as deeply flawed. I don't necessarily believe that I'm more flawed than other people, but it sure feels like I am, from this perspective I have of looking out at the world through my own mind, it's like looking at all the flaws up close. Anyway...I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I am very much aware of my faults, but not necessarily in a tragically flawed way, but more in a way that makes me conscious of all people's flaws. if that makes sense.
> 
> I very much want to be a "good person"--not just to be seen as one but to really be one deep down. I feel ashamed when I don't think I'm "good" but what "good" means varies from day to day and it often means I've made a moral mistake which I'm hard on myself about, but it can also mean that I am not "good enough at" something or not talented enough. Or not creative enough.
> 
> The focus I sometimes have on being morally sound, and the fact that people tell me I'm nice or kind fairly regularly, makes me wonder whether I have a 2 fix. But if I did I'd think I would try harder to help people out, and that I'd be a lot more aware of relationships between people, and between me and them. just more aware of other people in general. I do have a kind of emotional barometer to the room I'm in, and I take in the negativity or positivity deeply, and am affected by it, and internalize it.
> 
> so yeah, those are some scattered thoughts I have so far. In the end the only center I feel strongly about as of now is gut.





Rouskyrie said:


> I'm still seeking opinions on my instinctual stacking, (And/or my core type) if anyone is interested.
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1180169-who-what-do-you-perceive-me.html





goldthysanura said:


> I'd say that there's temporary shame and long-term shame.
> 
> Scenario 1 of temporary shame: I make some kind of careless mistake that hurts someone else.
> I think: "Oh God, how could I do that? How could I be so careless? Is there anything I can do to make this right, or will that just make it worse?" I get fixated on the mistake, and I want to hide away from it, I want to hide away from people as a whole.
> I worry that I have jeopardized my relationship with that person. I might turn to someone else I trust to go over the scenario with them, to try and figure out how bad the mistake I made actually was (usually not as bad as my reaction would lead me to believe), and to go over my solution to it. I think: how am I gonna make it right again? Can I? If I can't, it might affect me for a while. I'll feel like I lost something important.
> 
> Scenario 2 of temporary shame: I don't do well at something. For example, I give a performance and I feel I've done badly, or I go to a party and I feel like I'm a fraud.
> This one is harder to fix. It sets off an extremely harsh and negative critical voice in me, and it basically just insults me for a long time about it until it gets bored. Again, my reaction is to hide away from people, and/or to try and seek some kind of support to get me through it. I try not to ask for too much validation though because it feels fake to seek it out.
> After a while I get back my innocence. I dwell in the shame for a while, beating myself up about how I did, but I can have hope again at some point, and then I try performing again or go to a different party. I tell myself, just relax. You're gonna do OK. Prepare yourself so that you feel more satisfied with things this time, and just be your authentic self and I'm sure you'll have a good time. I build myself up a bit.
> 
> then on the other hand there's the type of shame that's deeper and more insidious, and not really based on any current situation. that kind of shame, I find impossible to completely shake. It's the deep-seated belief that I'm not good enough, that I don't deserve a chance at life, that I don't fit in or belong, that whatever I do or create or say isn't up to my standards, that I should just leave the business of being a human to other people who're better at it. This kind of shame is the root of the temporary shame, which is just a way of expressing the way I feel about myself. There's this ideal I have for myself, and it's very painful to me when I see someone else who's the way I want to be and when I compare myself to them and fall short. I feel a sense of loss, the loss of something I could have had if I were a different person, the loss of a possibility.
> 
> There's so much beauty in the world that I see, and I somehow feel ashamed when I'm not beautiful enough. Or not creative enough. Like...OK, I believe in something I call "the ineffable" which is that moment beyond words that you feel from certain kinds of art, or even from living life itself at times. that moment that goes beyond the mundane and that speaks to your heart directly or to your spirit or soul. What if I never give someone else access to that? What if I can never really grasp that for myself, never feel the way I want to or help someone else feel that way? That thought makes me feel hopeless and ashamed.
> 
> Here's a song that I relate to a lot about shame...I listen to it when I feel especially ashamed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Shame is the shadow of love." When I care about something enough, the stakes are high enough that if I lose it, I feel shame. I wasn't good enough for it.
> 
> For the question of what it means to me to be a good person. It means I have to always learn from my mistakes, whatever they are. Treating myself well is part of learning from my mistakes, despite this painful shame I have to face; I've started to understand that treating myself with respect and care is part of being morally sound--since I believe everyone deserves love, even myself, as impossible as that sounds. And the same goes for other people...I'm trying understand better how I can be there for people in a genuine way, how to not be aloof to people, how to be compassionate toward other people's suffering instead of only focusing selfishly on my own. Sensitivity is a given but compassion and generosity take time and effort to develop, and wisdom to know when and how to employ it. That applies both to how I treat myself and others. I have to become more wise with time and I absolutely have to be honest and authentic. I can feel it when I'm true to myself and when I'm untrue. I don't live up to these standards a lot of the time, because of all my flaws, but...nonetheless those are some of the ideals I have.


----------



## Paradigm

Greyhart said:


> @Paradigm with the amount of contradicting sources going around, what would be your take on difference between 6w5 and 6w7?


That's a good question  I may be a bit off on my wording, as it's been a very long day IRL and I'm exhausted, and wording my thoughts is hard enough for me when I'm _not_ exhausted. Still, I'll give it my best shot.

Overall, I find people over-complicate the wings a tad, or rather they conflate behavior with wing. (Which, considering people conflate behavior with type, isn't so surprising.) *I prefer to think of the wings more in terms of "which coping mechanisms do I use more?"*, kind of like one's core type but on a lesser scale. With this method, you can bypass many behavioral assumptions that have been forced onto each type over the years.

So with 6w5 and 6w7, it's not really a matter of, say, "am I an introvert/intellectual or extroverted/adventurous?" as is normally assumed, it's more a matter of "do I shun the world or engage it?" When you think of 5 and 7, what do you think of? Me, I tend to think, "hoarding, suspicious, distrustful;" when I think of 7, I think, "distractable, idealistic/naive, impulsive." Or to rephrase the previous, the 5 copes by distrusting the world and shunning it, whereas the 7 copes by distracting themselves from fear/pain (and not necessarily via external or interpersonal distractions). So after arriving at core 6, it's better to ask yourself which secondary (wing) coping mechanisms you use the most, _not_ which behavioral traits you embody the most.

(To be honest, phrasing it like "engaging or avoiding the world" is a bad way of putting it, because it implies sociability and being outwardly-turned [or the opposites thereof], but it's not like that at all. It's more like trying to sum up the triads, as the 5 is a Withdrawn type and the 7 is an Assertive type, and neither descriptor should imply a skill in or lack of introspection or such.)

I suppose the biggest problem people come up against is people like myself, ones who display very few stereotypical behavioral traits of the wing while still having that wing. Which is why I boil it down to the coping mechanisms: for example, I cope _much_ more like a 7 would than a 5, despite my manner of expression being very "flat" and reticent. Or you could take my mom, a 6w5, who is more emotional/expressive than I am but is boatloads more distrustful of everything around her. And there's some exceptions to this "rule" (of course), like how there's plenty of CP 6w7s who can definitely embody the traits of w5 on a more "superficial" level: these would be the distrustful/suspicious w7s, but compared to the CP 6w5 there would be more externalizing, more testing the people, and less hoarding of their inner selves as a way of protection.

Couple of posts for you in these links, which probably sum it up better than I have here:
http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/162253-6w5-vs-6w7-discussion.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/1162353-6w7s-how-does-your-7-wing-manifest.html


----------



## Greyhart

Paradigm said:


> That's a good question  I may be a bit off on my wording, as it's been a very long day IRL and I'm exhausted, and wording my thoughts is hard enough for me when I'm _not_ exhausted. Still, I'll give it my best shot.
> 
> Overall, I find people over-complicate the wings a tad, or rather they conflate behavior with wing. (Which, considering people conflate behavior with type, isn't so surprising.) *I prefer to think of the wings more in terms of "which coping mechanisms do I use more?"*, kind of like one's core type but on a lesser scale. With this method, you can bypass many behavioral assumptions that have been forced onto each type over the years.
> 
> So with 6w5 and 6w7, it's not really a matter of, say, "am I an introvert/intellectual or extroverted/adventurous?" as is normally assumed, it's more a matter of "do I shun the world or engage it?" When you think of 5 and 7, what do you think of? Me, I tend to think, "hoarding, suspicious, distrustful;" when I think of 7, I think, "distractable, idealistic/naive, impulsive." Or to rephrase the previous, the 5 copes by distrusting the world and shunning it, whereas the 7 copes by distracting themselves from fear/pain (and not necessarily via external or interpersonal distractions). So after arriving at core 6, it's better to ask yourself which secondary (wing) coping mechanisms you use the most, _not_ which behavioral traits you embody the most.
> 
> (To be honest, phrasing it like "engaging or avoiding the world" is a bad way of putting it, because it implies sociability and being outwardly-turned [or the opposites thereof], but it's not like that at all. It's more like trying to sum up the triads, as the 5 is a Withdrawn type and the 7 is an Assertive type, and neither descriptor should imply a skill in or lack of introspection or such.)
> 
> I suppose the biggest problem people come up against is people like myself, ones who display very few stereotypical behavioral traits of the wing while still having that wing. Which is why I boil it down to the coping mechanisms: for example, I cope _much_ more like a 7 would than a 5, despite my manner of expression being very "flat" and reticent. Or you could take my mom, a 6w5, who is more emotional/expressive than I am but is boatloads more distrustful of everything around her. And there's some exceptions to this "rule" (of course), like how there's plenty of CP 6w7s who can definitely embody the traits of w5 on a more "superficial" level: these would be the distrustful/suspicious w7s, but compared to the CP 6w5 there would be more externalizing, more testing the people, and less hoarding of their inner selves as a way of protection.
> 
> Couple of posts for you in these links, which probably sum it up better than I have here:
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/162253-6w5-vs-6w7-discussion.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/1162353-6w7s-how-does-your-7-wing-manifest.html


Eeey, you actually described my idea of how I switched to w5. Instead of considering w5/w7 descriptions - which contradict each other in different sources to a quite ridiculous degree - I just took "pure" 5 and 7 and looked at how I'm more likely to act IRL. Not as in "act in front of people" but rather what drive I'd rather engage internally. Due to whole "Ne base" my manner of speech may seem 7 but "hoarding, suspicious, distrustful;" would actually describe my coping mechanism much better. I build bunkers to cope. :th_o:


----------



## Paradigm

Greyhart said:


> Eeey, you actually described my idea of how I switched to w5. Instead of considering w5/w7 descriptions - which contradict each other in different sources to a quite ridiculous degree - I just took "pure" 5 and 7 and looked at how I'm more likely to act IRL. Not as in "act in front of people" but rather what drive I'd rather engage internally. Due to whole "Ne base" my manner of speech may seem 7 but "hoarding, suspicious, distrustful;" would actually describe my coping mechanism much better. I build bunkers to cope. :th_o:


Yup, IMO that would be the best way of doing it!

For example, I'm a very internally-oriented person: I'm in my head a ton, and come off as super reserved, and don't really even like interacting with reality that much - but that doesn't mean I don't rely on the 7's mechanisms of constant Planning and Distraction; I do, but in more internalized or solitary ways. That doesn't make it less w7, it just means it's a different manifestation than expected.

Whereas the w5's mechanisms would be more like as you said, "building bunkers," defending themselves rather than distracting (which can look similar), "hoarding" what they think would make them safe (what is hoarded can vary on subtype, sometimes). Being an ENxP 6w5 isn't that strange to me, because there's nothing about the 5ish defensiveness that is inherently anti-Ne, so to speak. Ne is pure perception, which isn't supposed to describe how you judge or react to things. IMO, 6w5 could fit for any MBTI at all, even ExFJ, and is a lot easier to get others to accept than "6w7 could potentially fit every MBTI."


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Just making another post about some thoughts I have been having. I think my urge for transformation/metamorphosis could be linked to my SX. I have been thinking about in what ways I seek this "intensity," and it reflects in my untamed desire to dig into my self, even if it means I am ripping open and digging deeper my wounds. Part of the urgency, of course, is that I don't want to be in pain anymore. But many people are ill, some way more more gravely than I am; yet they do not necessarily show this urgency. I think with type 4 specially -* SX + 4 = continual transformation of self*, in order to get closest the ideal healthy state; shaping a diamond from ore. There's no stagnation. There might be _loops_, when I would get stuck in needing someone to save me, however - never stagnation. I am constantly pushing myself psychologically, trying to evolve into something better. Constantly. To the point it has driven me to become suicidal numerous times. But it is only through facing that urge to die did I find what was worth living for. 

It IS dangerous however, and my friend warns me to stop digging in and "just rest" for a while, but I have been constantly been productive and active in wanting to understand and release all the psychological knots around my trauma(s). I never sit still. I would rather feel the pain and _transcend _in some way, than sit still in the same spot. I guess I also crave to become whole by finding parts of myself I did not acknowledge before. I rip, tear, bleed, cry, wail, feel hopeless and suicidal, and then find some golden nugget of meaning that will never leave me. Rinse, repeat. 

I have also reflected on my presence on here, and I realize that I may stand out a bit at this point of having been on the forum. My collages are always raw and bloody - and this is how I feel. Maybe this is unhealthy not just 4, but SX as well. The rawness and pain, I mean. 

I guess I probably should "give myself a break" as my friend suggested but I also feel incapable of it. How can I be addicted to this self discovery process so much despite the fact that it brings me so much pain? And yes, it's obsession alright, not just a dry and sober desire to become better. I need...this. Whatever this is. Becoming one with myself? Is that what I so desperately seek? I don't know.


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## pwowq

Knock yourself out. Don't stare too hard the wording as I don't have English as my first language. 


pwowq said:


> Enneagram is messy, chaotic, blurry, unscientific and subject to OPINIONs. Therefore I find it a fun challenge to nail down my tritype. It requires a different train of thought for me. With this disclaimer presented:
> 
> 7-3-what?
> 
> How do I find my "body triad"? What are the differences between 731 'The Systems Builder', 738 'The Mover Shaker', 739 'The Ambassador' ?
> 
> Is it just as simple as "this is the casual fit because [whatever]"? The difficulty is I cannot find clarity between 1/8/9. I can't find clear lines in how I function (within the realm of Enneagram-laws). I find I can present all three depending on circumstances.
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> To make it simple:
> I'm a *Type 7 because* I literally have all its fears, problems and issues. Living to combat the fears. They're always present in my head.
> 
> I'm a *Type 7w8 because* I am highly concerned with underlying power dynamics between people surprisingly instinctual. This is why I believe I'm a SO-dom.
> 
> I'm a *strong gutty 73#*. I have most of its positive traits wanting to achieve for sake of achievement. It's instinct to impact those dealing with me. I want to dictate others impression of me thru RESULTS.
> _______________________________________________________
> 73*1*
> _- To do what needs to be done and in a pleasant way, enjoy executing plans, enjoy life, meet goals/expectations - _
> 
> 73*8*
> _- To see what's possible and find innovative ways to achieve goals, to manifest your vision from a position of power, to be "doing" - _
> 
> 73*9*
> _- To find compassionate/effective ways to create change and bridge differences, to help others become harmonious and develop their potential - _
> 
> All three can easily be perceived if one allows me to dictate and you follow me for a day.​


Clearly I'm an INFJ 2w3 sx/so 251. Right? Or a Type 1? Idk.

Honestly thou: No need to be gentle.


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## Dangerose

(idk just don't like these long things being up online anymore)


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## Dangerose

.


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## Rydori

destroy and ignite all type 8s.


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## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> Like idk I'll think of something better to say when I can think clearly and am not ruining my sleep schedule with this nonsense but...I'm not sure, 6s I know I get frustrated, the things the specific 6s I know focus on seem like strange things to focus on, always feels like they're taking things so seriously or about to take something really seriously...and I consider myself a serious person but in a different way
> 
> But on the other hand, I do I guess...want people to guide me, actually I kinda hate telling anyone what I'm trying to do and such so I usually don't accept help and it really annoys me when people try to help me and my knee-jerk reaction is to refuse all help, even though I pretty much always look like a person who needs help, based on my circumstance  but like...the other day I had missed two busses I'd paid for already that day by being an absolute idiot (in my defense I had a fever and was in a foreign country and the system was extremely confusing) and I tried to get on one bus but then the lady told me I had to go somewhere else to get the ticket and it was confusing and then I was sitting on a bench trying to look like I knew what I was doing and was just chilling there while trying to find info on my phone and then a handsome man came up to me and after I pretended not to hear him once I vaguely explained where I was trying to go and he explained the whole thing to me and obviously thought it was really strange that the lady wouldn't give me a ticket and it was really nice, I was so happy
> 
> Like...idk, the world feels difficult and complicated and people randomly tell you that you can't get on busses and I love it when people randomly sweep in and solve all my problems, or...I don't know, there's something specific I associate with it, I mentioned on another thread a line in a song 'I'd help her in every deed and indeed all her deeds I would do', pathetically I really like that line, I really want...someone to do all my deeds, deeds are very difficult (to be fair I would also like to do someone else's deeds, world feels like it would be completely easy if I could do all the difficult things for someone else and they could do all the difficult things for me)
> 
> So that is something that feels 6ish whenever it comes up but I'm not sure if it feels...foundationally 6ish, I'm not sure how to judge these things...feels like it could be cp how I do instinctively reject offers of help and that kind of thing, and p how I really do like it in the end (well...from handsome men only though, that's the catch, feels genuinely smothering and just infuriating otherwise)


That's a lot of overthinking lol. Personally I would've made sure in advance to be prepared so as to not run into that kind of slightly embarrassing situation in the first place. 

Don't think what you're talking about is 6ish tbh. Being self sufficient is a valued trait in most if not all cultures so it's something we strive for, but it still makes sense to appreciate getting a hand from someone when we're stuck (especially a one time thing from a cute stranger :wink. Maybe it's the stronger line to 3 from being a Sx 6, but I can tell you I'm a _pretty_ prideful and stubborn guy when it comes to doing stuff on my own and in my own way. On the other hand I didn't have any core fears triggered when I flirted my classmate into giving me a lift earlier today ^^' Enneagram isn't a personality disorder, it's not present in each and every move we make throughout our day. It shows its significance particularly when we're stressed out, and when we examine the bad patterns that keep plaguing our lives on the long run. You don't have to be an image type to not want to get out of the house after an acne break out y'know ?

If anything I think you've got your tritype nailed (possibly 6w7 instead of 7w6), but I can't comment on a core unfortunately...


----------



## mp2

Hello gentle typing people. roud: 

I’m still a bit confused with my Enneagram and would appreciate any feedback/ follow-up questions that lead to feedback. 

I’ve been interested in Enneagram for about a year now and I think I’m 4w5, but not entirely sure. The other types I’ve considered and still consider are 5, 6, and 9. On any test I always score either 4 or 5. 

At first, I typed myself as 9w1 and still consider it. Mainly because my behavior is often very 9-ish, I don’t like conflict, have trouble saying no, and people often see me as very laid back. But, learning more about it, I can’t identify with the internal process of 9 at all. No numbing out, no real desire for internal harmony or peace. The only way I can see myself as a 9 is if I’ve been disintegrating towards 6 for my entire life, which is a possibility, but seems pretty unlikely. I’m pretty sure I have a 9w1 fix though. 

Then, there’s 6. I can identify with the anxiety aspects of 6, but often I think it’s just a separate mental/personality disorder that’s unrelated to any sort of personality theory, but then again Enneagram almost appears to be a system meant to explain mental/personality disorders when compared to other theories, so it’s hard to say. I can’t identify with the core fears at all, I’m not all that interested in guidance or support. I can identify somewhat with the security seeking aspects of 6, with being an extremely phobic sp 6 with little to no counter-phobic aspects, as well as constantly doubting/questioning myself and doubting/questioning everything, but I don’t think I do this enough to be a core 6, but makes a 6 fix or wing fairly likely. 

Then, there’s 5. I can identify with many aspects of 5. For one, I think I’m pretty competency driven. Feeling competent in something has such a major, positive impact on me, while feeling incompetent or useless is one of the worst things that leads everything downhill pretty quickly. I do turn to gathering as much information as I can as some sort of defense against the feeling of incompetency/uselessness, but never feel like I’m doing enough or that I will ever succeed with doing this. So, I think that a true 5 would be better at this than I am, but I can't tell if that's the case or if thinking that true 5's would be more successful actually means I'm a 5. I’m also very avoidant and spend 90% of my time in my own head, ignoring my surroundings and playing around with different idea/tangents. Kind of embarrassing to admit, but if not for this site it would be more like 95% instead of 90%. :blushed: 

So this puts 5 at second for core type, but I’m not even sure if I have a 5 fix based solely on this. I lean towards a 6 fix still because of the constant self-doubt and anxiety. A 7 fix isn’t even out of the question, but less likely. Though I’m almost positive about the 4 and 9 fixes (even though I know I very well could be wrong about these as well). 

But then, 4 still seems more likely than 5, 6, or 9. It’s easier to identify with the 4’s core fears than the others. I think I identify with them so strongly that it took so long for me to realize it. It’s really the only type that hit too close to home and I think I may have been ignoring the idea of 4 because I naturally try to ignore the core fears or avoid them. The idea of not having an identity, the idea of being fundamentally broken and unable to function like “normal” people hits so deep. To a point where, not only do I do my best to hide these aspects from other people, but at times I can hide this from myself. This does appear to be the biggest fear for me and the driving motivating factor in life. 

However, this gets tricky with the competency aspects of 5 and comparing 5w4 and 4w5. From what I can tell, 5w4 and 4w5 appear to be closer in a lot of ways compared to other core/wing combos, and two of the most difficult types to discern from each other. But, I think the competency aspects that lead me to 5 are based more on image, which could just mean this is one way 4 manifests for me, and could also maybe be due to the 5 wing combined with a five fix. I can’t help but hide things about myself, and this makes thing like this, posting things about myself to get feedback, difficult because I automatically resort to hiding aspects of myself and really have to push myself to get things out. 

So, I think it’s likely that I’m either 4w5 with more of a competency focus, or a melancholic 5w4 with more of an identify focus. 

I can’t tell how accurate I am with any of this though, I really like Enneagram but I'm nowhere close to being an Enneagram expert, so any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## my melody

@mp2 I can actually relate to a lot of what you've said. I'm going to share some links I found helpful, hopefully they can help you too. 

This one explains the gut, heart, and head triads and some specifics about each type:
http://personalitycafe.com/articles/109144-triads-enneagram-explained.html

This link will take you to articles on the 36 misidentifications possible with enneagram types:
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/36-type-misidentifications

Here's the one specifically about 4 vs 5:
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-4-and-5

And 4 vs 6:
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-4-and-6


----------



## mp2

@my melody Thanks for the links! :happy: 

I haven't seen the first one before, the triad definitions and breakdown. I like the way it's broken down and explained, and this pushes me more towards 4, but I need to read it more in depth to be sure. 

I've read all the comparisons between each type from Enneagram Institute a few times. While very helpful, they're also kind of confusing for me in some ways. One thing I'm still unsure about is the likelihood of misidentification between types. One example is misidentifying 9 and 5, because they describe 9's mistyping as 5's as much more likely than the other way around. While this does make sense, and I've read this in many other places, it's difficult to gauge roughly _how_ unlikely it is. Is it only 1/10 cases of 5's mistyping as 9's, 1/100, 1/1000, 1/10000? While their comparisons of likelihood are helpful in understanding the theory in general, they're not really helpful with self-typing, for me at least. I'm not asking them to give exact numbers, or anything close to exact numbers or anything, just a better ballpark figure that's a little less vague. But, yeah, their comparisons have been one of the most confusing things for me.


----------



## my melody

mp2 said:


> @*my melody* Thanks for the links! :happy:
> 
> I haven't seen the first one before, the triad definitions and breakdown. I like the way it's broken down and explained, and this pushes me more towards 4, but I need to read it more in depth to be sure.
> 
> I've read all the comparisons between each type from Enneagram Institute a few times. While very helpful, they're also kind of confusing for me in some ways. One thing I'm still unsure about is the likelihood of misidentification between types. One example is misidentifying 9 and 5, because they describe 9's mistyping as 5's as much more likely than the other way around. While this does make sense, and I've read this in many other places, it's difficult to gauge roughly _how_ unlikely it is. Is it only 1/10 cases of 5's mistyping as 9's, 1/100, 1/1000, 1/10000? While their comparisons of likelihood are helpful in understanding the theory in general, they're not really helpful with self-typing, for me at least. I'm not asking them to give exact numbers, or anything close to exact numbers or anything, just a better ballpark figure that's a little less vague. But, yeah, their comparisons have been one of the most confusing things for me.


I think it's better not to get hung up on stuff like 'one is more likely to mistype as the other,' just focus on _you_ and the content of what they're saying. I typed myself as a 6 for a long time, but as I've been spending more time researching the enneagram types I believe I'm truly a 4. I think I mistyped because I have anxiety disorders, which make some of my behaviors and thoughts appear somewhat like a phobic 6. But through research I learned that the typical 6 anxiety isn't like a disordered anxiety (not to suggest E6s can't have anxiety disorders) but it's more like an existential anxiety (http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...-fear-normal-fear-understanding-type-6-a.html). And when I read the aforementioned misidentification article on 4 vs 6 I definitely fell on the 4 side. 

As for 5 vs 9, I can say my INTP husband thought himself an E5 for a long time and recently discovered he is an E9. But unlike what you said about yourself, he is definitely prone to 'numbing out' and striving to keep an internal peace.

I found this link here also talking about the triads which might be helpful. Here's a quote explaining the harmonic triads. They are each pretty different. Which one do you relate to the most?


> Positive outlook: 2, 7, 9
> Reactive: 4, 6, 8
> Competency: 1, 3, 5
> 
> The positive outlook, as the name suggests, tend to try to put a positive spin on things. These are silver lining types. Their greatest difficulty comes from not wanting to see the negative side of a situation, so disappointment can actually be more devastating for these types, since it catches them by surprise. They also have difficulty asserting their own needs or letting others know when they're troubled, because they want to seem "okay" to others.
> 
> The reactive types tend to want to get a reaction from others. When a reactive type is upset, they don't want the other person to stay calm. They want to see their negative emotions mirrored by others. They are often referred to as the "truth tellers of the enneagram" for the simple reason that reactive types can pick up on the more troubled aspects of a situation before other types do. If the positive outlook types err by focusing too much on the positive, reactive types can err by focusing too much on the negative. What they're seeing may, in fact, be there, but what comes across as barely perceptible to other types comes across like a flashing neon sign to the reactive types, and it's very difficult for them to not address it.
> 
> The competency types tends to want to sort through things logically and strategically, seeing feelings as distractions that keep them from dealing with things in an efficient manner. Unlike the reactive types, they don't want others to see when something has upset them, but rather maintain emotional control and deal with things as effectively as possible. If the positive outlook errs by looking at the positive side, and reactive types err at being too tuned in to the negative, the competency types err by not dealing with their emotions and authentic responses.


Have you read the subtype descriptions of the types by Beatrice Chestnut? They're really well done. http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...stnut-sub-type-descriptions-core-beliefs.html

Here are some descriptions from Naranjo. They are long but pretty excellent.
Type 4: http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...ranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-4-a.html
Type 5: http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-f...naranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-v.html
Type 6: http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...ce-paranoid-character-accusation-naranjo.html
Type 9: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...ranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-9-a.html

ETA: Here is another thread discussing the harmonic triad: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/13722-harmonic-groups.html

I hope this helps!


----------



## mp2

my melody said:


> I think it's better not to get hung up on stuff like 'one is more likely to mistype as the other,' just focus on _you_ and the content of what they're saying. I typed myself as a 6 for a long time, but as I've been spending more time researching the enneagram types I believe I'm truly a 4. I think I mistyped because I have anxiety disorders, which make some of my behaviors and thoughts appear somewhat like a phobic 6. But through research I learned that the typical 6 anxiety isn't like a disordered anxiety (not to suggest E6s can't have anxiety disorders) but it's more like an existential anxiety (http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...-fear-normal-fear-understanding-type-6-a.html). And when I read the aforementioned misidentification article on 4 vs 6 I definitely fell on the 4 side.


I haven't seen this, but I've read and thought about a lot about the difference between anxiety disorders and 6 type of anxiety. The hard thing for me to tell is if I have both, and how I would even begin to tell if it's a case of having both anxiety disorders and 6 existential anxiety, and telling how they would interact, if they can be at odds with each other where one in effect smothers the other and makes it hidden to me, or if they blend together into an anxiety mesh to a point where it's impossible for me to differentiate the two. Or, maybe it is just one or the other taken to an extreme where I'm simply imagining the other. I definitely agree that it would be best just to look at how I relate to things, but I'm just worried that I might fall into a common mistype trap of thinking I'm something I'm not and want to be as vigilant about that as I can. 

I also have avoidant personality disorder, which really complicates things further. I've read in several places that this is heavily tied to unhealthy 5's, which does seem very likely. But, it's hard to tell if this is the case or if I only identify with 5 _because_ of this. I'm really at a complete loss with this and all the above 6 stuff, but I'm doing my best to reconcile everything and figure it out. :blushed: 



> As for 5 vs 9, I can say my INTP husband thought himself an E5 for a long time and recently discovered he is an E9. But unlike what you said about yourself, he is definitely prone to 'numbing out' and striving to keep an internal peace.
> 
> I found this link here also talking about the triads which might be helpful. Here's a quote explaining the harmonic triads. They are each pretty different. Which one do you relate to the most?


This is helpful, I haven't seen this. With this, I don't identify with the gut type at all. I would go with head triad here, but can also identify with heart triad. I'd say 58%/42% head over heart, but it could still easily go the other way or even be 50/50. 

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm INTP though I've had my doubts about that too. I get the idea that many INTPs of any type are going to identify with 5 on some level, and that the number of type 5 INTPs may be inflated(even though it does make a lot of sense, and most INTPs probably are 5's), especially when it comes to 4w5, 6w5, or 9 INTPs. 



> Have you read the subtype descriptions of the types by Beatrice Chestnut? They're really well done. http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...stnut-sub-type-descriptions-core-beliefs.html


Oh yes, I've read all the Chestnut descriptions. If not for Beatrice Chestnut, I probably wouldn't even seriously consider 6 as a possible type at all, but I can identify with her sp 6 description. Based on her descriptions, I would lean towards sp 4, so 4, sp 6, or sx 5. 



> Here are some descriptions from Naranjo. They are long but pretty excellent.
> Type 4: http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...ranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-4-a.html
> Type 5: http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-f...naranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-v.html
> Type 6: http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...ce-paranoid-character-accusation-naranjo.html
> Type 9: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...ranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-9-a.html
> 
> ETA: Here is another thread discussing the harmonic triad: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/13722-harmonic-groups.html
> 
> I hope this helps!


I haven't read these yet but will do so. This could be the difference maker. Thanks a lot! :kitteh:


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> Any particular reason for 6>7?


You over-think and ramble all the time. It's classically 6w7ish. 7 is an Assertive type, which means they prefer either doing or forgetting. You, otoh, spread a lot of doubt out on the table and try to figure out what is what.


----------



## Dangerose

(Thanks for thoughts, I just keep not liking having me rambling about myself up)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> You over-think and ramble all the time. It's classically 6w7ish. 7 is an Assertive type, which means they prefer either doing or forgetting. You, otoh, spread a lot of doubt out on the table and try to figure out what is what.


I thought endless rambling was an XNFP trait in general :shocked:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> That's a lot of overthinking lol. Personally I would've made sure in advance to be prepared so as to not run into that kind of slightly embarrassing situation in the first place.


I thought I was! :laughing: as I always think I am, sort-of
Didn't think it was that embarrassing either but now I know I should be ashamed :laughing:



> Don't think what you're talking about is 6ish tbh. Being self sufficient is a valued trait in most if not all cultures so it's something we strive for, but it still makes sense to appreciate getting a hand from someone when we're stuck (especially a one time thing from a cute stranger :wink. Maybe it's the stronger line to 3 from being a Sx 6, but I can tell you I'm a _pretty_ prideful and stubborn guy when it comes to doing stuff on my own and in my own way. On the other hand I didn't have any core fears triggered when I flirted my classmate into giving me a lift earlier today ^^' Enneagram isn't a personality disorder, it's not present in each and every move we make throughout our day. It shows its significance particularly when we're stressed out, and when we examine the bad patterns that keep plaguing our lives on the long run. You don't have to be an image type to not want to get out of the house after an acne break out y'know ?


Thanks, this is helpful 
Though...I don't think of myself as valuing self-sufficiency, I think it's really notable how much I don't compared to other people, I don't feel particularly attached to competence, I'm not worried about people thinking 'ooh, she's incompetent' (unless it's an employer oc), and it's not something I really judge other people for (consciously I mean, obviously my net impression of someone is going to change based on how competent they are) but it's more like I'm stubborn with things that people would expect me to try to get help with or something, but it's hard to explain and I'd probably be making up a pattern that doesn't exist if I tried since I don't have my finger on what the difference is

Anyways, thanks for all the thoughts))



Paradigm said:


> You over-think and ramble all the time. It's classically 6w7ish. 7 is an Assertive type, which means they prefer either doing or forgetting. You, otoh, spread a lot of doubt out on the table and try to figure out what is what.





ElectricSlime said:


> I thought endless rambling was an XNFP trait in general :shocked:


I responded at length to this earlier but I've been in odd mood I guess and it wasn't that great of response but hm I do maybe think it's more of Ne rambling + being fairly narcisstistic and liking to talk to myself? like I don't know, I was saying how in real life I always get frustrated that people always want to move on from topics like the second they come up and I always feel like I'm trying to slow things down because I want to stay and dig deeper and riff on them, I think my base level of what rambling is could be different than other people's basically, conversations often feel a bit to me like "Let's talk about mice" "Grey" "Tails" "Eat cheese" "OK NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT SPIDERS" "Eight legs" "many ey-" "THAT WAS ENOUGH ABOUT SPIDERS FOR TODAY TIME FOR TYPES OF BARNS" 

if that example makes sense

But yeah, I'm not sure about 6 in general, never quite seems to 'click' for me but I know 6s are supposed to be unaware of their own 6ishness often which makes it difficult, there is an archetype about 6 I can see myself fitting into

But in general I think heart type makes the most sense so I wouldn't think 6 core anyways.

I'm not sure,


----------



## Brains

Brick said:


> destroy and ignite all type 8s.


:sad:


----------



## Coburn

I'd ramble, but I don't have enough to say.


----------



## Krayfish

Hey I know the tritype with all of the wings theory is sort of shaky to begin with, but what is the best way to differentiate if you have a fix of a type rather than if you have two wings of a type present? Just to clarify, like 9w1 and 2w1 fixed or it's just a 1 fix or 8w7 and 6w7 fixed or just 7 fix?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Coburn said:


> I'd ramble, but I don't have enough to say.


Quintessential Sx last statement lol. Love it.


----------



## goldthysanura

It's funny how some of my favorite music has 9-like themes but the music I write doesn't so much. (at least it doesn't seem like it to me).


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> I thought I was! :laughing: as I always think I am, sort-of
> Didn't think it was that embarrassing either but now I know I should be ashamed :laughing:


Don't let my self consciousness rub off on you, if you thought nothing of it it's actually better :kitteh:



> Thanks, this is helpful
> Though...I don't think of myself as valuing self-sufficiency, I think it's really notable how much I don't compared to other people, I don't feel particularly attached to competence, I'm not worried about people thinking 'ooh, she's incompetent' (unless it's an employer oc), and it's not something I really judge other people for (consciously I mean, obviously my net impression of someone is going to change based on how competent they are) but it's more like I'm stubborn with things that people would expect me to try to get help with or something, but it's hard to explain and I'd probably be making up a pattern that doesn't exist if I tried since I don't have my finger on what the difference is
> 
> Anyways, thanks for all the thoughts))


You're not worried at the possibility of being a burden on others and being looked down upon for it ? That's nice, although incomprehensible on my end ^^'

That said, don't Twos have that whole complex about being the one that helps people and NOT needing help in return ? Surely that would translate into avoiding to turn into a burden, and thus developing some semblance of competency yes ?



> But yeah, I'm not sure about 6 in general, never quite seems to 'click' for me but I know 6s are supposed to be unaware of their own 6ishness often which makes it difficult, there is an archetype about 6 I can see myself fitting into
> 
> But in general I think heart type makes the most sense so I wouldn't think 6 core anyways.
> 
> I'm not sure,


Well I can testify that back when I was an absolute Enneagram noob, Six was among the least likely on the list. I was mostly looking between 5, 8 and 3/4. 7 as well very briefly, then I compared myself to the actual 7s around me in RL and went "yeah just no". It was mostly a matter of stumbling on the correct definitions (as lots of E6 descriptions suck dick, looking at you Riso and Hudson), researching a bit more into it and gaining self awareness. I didn't even know just how deep my unconscious paranoia ran. I had bypassed it since childhood, but never actually solved it and didn't even know it was still there. Counterphobia was like escaping from jail but having forgotten how it was to be free, running with weights attached to my feet for years without even realizing it. After that, seeing fellow CP 6w5 Sx (regardless of Jungian type) interact and talk about themselves over the internet just solidified my conclusions. It was as if seeing a kindred spirit in several aspects, a future version of myself. Clearly I wouldn't necessarily get along with all of them, but our approaches were similar. Obviously I can feel the same around a few 8s, 4s, 5s, and even 3s, but it's just not the same. 

What I mean to say is that you have to let go of the self perception that you put on yourself (which is something a lot of newbies struggle with btw) but also the one people attached on you, as a lot of people are retarded and prone to projection, ill will or simply idealization (me included). I'm thinking if what you really resonate with concerning Sixes is an archetype (which seems to be a tritype thing I'd say), it's probably not your core type. If you feel the heart triad is where your main neurosis is, then I believe you're correct in exploring that for the answers you seek. 

As for the fixes, one year later I'm still uncertain about my image fix, so don't sweat it too much!


----------



## Coburn

ElectricSlime said:


> Quintessential Sx last statement lol. Love it.


In person, I can rant to the moon and back about various things, but online I get tired of writing about a feeling by the time I've hit my third sentence. Offline intensity doesn't seem to translate into the written word.


----------



## Paradigm

mp2 said:


> Thanks for the apology :kitteh: but I didn't even get the idea at all that you were taking anything out on me or that there was anything to apologize for. :shocked:


Heh xD I was talking to another user at the same time on IM and realized I was talking _about _459s _to _459s and kinda facepalmed myself. But, honestly, I really wasn't thinking about your type, I sometimes get... overly focused on one idea and end up talking about the idea than the person...

Oh! On learning more about 6, I like this description the best, and this page helped me find my wing the most. I don't readily vouch for anything but the 6 bits, though.



Immolate said:


> 4w5-5w4-1w9 if they're a bit particular :thinking:


But only a _little_, not overly so. If they were overly particular they'd be 1w2. /s

During that convo with the other user, I ended up talking myself through, "everyone's a 459... well and there's a few 469s... oh and 145." (145 > 469 tho 'cause I guess 4w5 = 5w4 fix and vice versa? Idk.)

Though, 146 is probably fourth on that list so I guess I have to suck that up.



Brains said:


> [...]What most people are after with typology is asserting themselves some kind of identity, and bonding with people over that. So "I'm a 5 so I'm a complex individualist thinker" rather than "I'm like XYZFG, so 5 seems to fit fine as a description". They draw a sense of identity from the descriptions, which is why calling out mistypings is usually received so badly. You don't attack some thing they have, but what they are, and without which they'd be different.
> We're all different and unique, but these people need a label saying it.[...]


Haha harsh. You're right, but ouch :tongue:

I never really understood the mentality of using typology as an identity. I understand it as a shorthand, as a beginning platform for psychology, as a way of facilitating understanding others... But not identity. That's what I meant by saying I kind of understand it but it still seems weird to me. I wonder if the ("unintentional") emphasis on 4/5 being "individualistic" makes people more likely to use them as identities, if that makes sense? 

Also the idea of being part of the assumed minority in the midst of the majority (ie, a 459 in a room of 459s) seems really... off. A sort of doublethink situation. But apparently most of humanity (including myself) doublethinks themselves in some way or another, so I can't really fault them.


----------



## Brains

Paradigm said:


> Heh xD I was talking to another user at the same time on IM and realized I was talking _about _459s _to _459s and kinda facepalmed myself. But, honestly, I really wasn't thinking about your type, I sometimes get... overly focused on one idea and end up talking about the idea than the person...
> 
> Oh! On learning more about 6, I like this description the best, and this page helped me find my wing the most. I don't readily vouch for anything but the 6 bits, though.


Why do you link to the Internet Archive? Last I checked, these are also available on Wordpress here. Dunno how sold I am on their instinctual stacking descriptions, but the core type descriptions are overall quite good.



Paradigm said:


> Haha harsh. You're right, but ouch :tongue:
> 
> I never really understood the mentality of using typology as an identity. I understand it as a shorthand, as a beginning platform for psychology, as a way of facilitating understanding others... But not identity. That's what I meant by saying I kind of understand it but it still seems weird to me. I wonder if the ("unintentional") emphasis on 4/5 being "individualistic" makes people more likely to use them as identities, if that makes sense?
> 
> Also the idea of being part of the assumed minority in the midst of the majority (ie, a 459 in a room of 459s) seems really... off. A sort of doublethink situation. But apparently most of humanity (including myself) doublethinks themselves in some way or another, so I can't really fault them.


:kitteh:

I mean, everyone does that to a degree, but I do find it puzzling. The emphasis on individualism definitely is part of the reason. Same reason you usually see the 45x people type their instincts as soc-last and make elaborate signatures to broadcast all these _...social_ identifications to the wider world.


----------



## Paradigm

Brains said:


> Why do you link to the Internet Archive? Last I checked, these are also available on Wordpress here. Dunno how sold I am on their instinctual stacking descriptions, but the core type descriptions are overall quite good.


When I come across people linking the Wordpress I'm too lazy to change my bookmark, but when I think about changing it then I forget where it is and am too lazy to google it.

So, the usual 

I don't particularly enjoy their stack descriptions, especially those per type, but at the same time I've heard worse. Nowadays it seems harder to find info on how a specific type _might_ manifest (I remember googling "6w7 sp/sx," among other combinations, years ago and combing through the EI forums [the bastion of elitism it was]) so I kind of understand using it as a way to help self-type, but I wouldn't like to see them used as a _main _way of typing anyone.


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> No offense to @mp2, but I just don't see what's so complicated about sorting out general anxiety shit with the characteristically existential and interpersonal type of anxiety in Sixes, provided you put in 20 minutes of research on Google.


No offense taken :happy:. But I agree, there's noting complicated about sorting out the theory at all, and it's very easy to understand the theory between clinical anxiety and 5/6/7 types of anxiety, and it's become much easier for me to tell the difference with people I know, so it's easy for me to understand the theory and apply it to other people. It's applying it to myself that's hard for me to do(same with MBTI and Socionics). I've read these articles, I've spent a lot of time reading articles, watching videos, and researching Enneagram. I really feel uncomfortable asking others to type me, I don't like asking for help in general, it makes me very uncomfortable and something I usually try to avoid. I'd much rather figure things out on my own, but with personality theory it just seems to get to a last resort where research and thinking things through on my own doesn't cut it. I don't think I did a good job at all at explaining this before though. This whole process of applying external systems to myself, with things like MBTI and Enneagram, is new to me in general. I'm more accustomed to understanding systems on their own, where I'm not really involved, or understanding myself on its own terms, without external systems. So trying to combine these two ideas has been pretty difficult, probably more difficult than it should be.  

Just to be clear, I'm not being defensive/combative or arguing or anything and I didn't take any offense to what you said at all, just explaining myself and explaining my thought process/confusion. :blushed: 



Manuscript said:


> I'd think any type could have imposter syndrome, broadly speaking, so you'd need to look into the how and why. I believe why Fives need to be competent has to do with why their line of integration is towards Eight. Fives have a niche or space - whether physical, mental, social, etc. - that lets them gain a sense of control and respite from external demands. They can go from feeling confident in facing some difficult task to feeling helpless in dealing with daily life. This is a different way of feeling 'broken' than Fours, though I think they can blur together in the wing types as they build their identities. Likewise, I think the 5w6 needs a certain sense of clarity. I wouldn't rule out 5w6 at this point.
> 
> Could you expand on the second part? What does it mean to you to lose touch with your authentic identity or become banal and insignificant?


Hm, this is always hard for me to explain. With losing touch with my authentic identity, it sort of starts with the two aspects of what it means for how I see myself and what it means for how I'm seen by others. Then there's the immediate follow-up of how I want to see myself, and how I want to be seen by others. Though, the aspect of how I'm seen by others/want to be seen by others is more of a volatile aspect, because I quickly go back and forth between thinking I don't care about that at all and realizing I do. 

I worry much more about losing touch with my identity or becoming banal in the long term than I do the short term. Whenever I start to worry about it(which is fairly often), I start to worry more that it's the beginning of some sort of domino effect that will continue to grow. More than anything, I'm worried about the idea that I'll either forget that it's happening, not realize it's happening, or become too complacent and even accept it. :shocked: That the stress and worry of losing touch with my authentic self will become too great, to a point where it will become easier for me to simply forget about it and trick myself into thinking that I don't want to achieve things I really want to achieve anyway and trick myself into living a boring, meaningless life. I think I'll at least always be okay if I don't lose touch with the ideas of what I want to be or what I want to do, but once I start to give in and forget these things is when I risk my identity. 

There's much more to it than this, and, again, it's hard to explain, but this is the more general idea of it all. This is one of the main things that leads me to the heart triad and type 4, but also why I can see the fear triad and see type 5 or 6 as easily likely. :frustrating:


----------



## mp2

Paradigm said:


> Heh xD I was talking to another user at the same time on IM and realized I was talking _about _459s _to _459s and kinda facepalmed myself. But, honestly, I really wasn't thinking about your type, I sometimes get... overly focused on one idea and end up talking about the idea than the person...
> 
> Oh! On learning more about 6, I like this description the best, and this page helped me find my wing the most. I don't readily vouch for anything but the 6 bits, though.


I haven't seen these, thanks! :kitteh: I can identify with a lot of the aspects with the first article, which seems to be a good summary of what I've read about 6's in other places. The 6/5 6/4 and 6/9 mistypes also seem very possible, as those are the three main types I've typed as. 

With the second one though, the 5w4 description stands out to me more than anything else and makes that seem more likely. 

I haven't 100% ruled out 9 also, and I think part of the confusion could be the combination of clinical anxiety/Enneagram 9 creating an instance where there has never been a point in life where I haven't been disintegrating to 6, and instead of adjusting and moving towards a healthier path, I just adapt to disintegration to a point where I don't realize it's happening and it becomes the norm. I haven't been able to find much on this sort of thing though so I can't tell how common this would be, or if it's even a real thing.


----------



## Manuscript

Paradigm said:


> During that convo with the other user, I ended up talking myself through, "everyone's a 459... well and there's a few 469s... oh and 145." (145 > 469 tho 'cause I guess 4w5 = 5w4 fix and vice versa? Idk.)


Don't the withdrawn types have traits (at low health levels) that resemble common symptoms of depression?

The issue with invoking social desirability bias is that withdrawn types are not any more socially-desirable than other types outside of typology circles. The bias towards withdrawn types can be explained by self-selection, but this is what the whole argument was designed to avoid to begin with.



mp2 said:


> Hm, this is always hard for me to explain. With losing touch with my authentic identity, it sort of starts with the two aspects of what it means for how I see myself and what it means for how I'm seen by others. Then there's the immediate follow-up of how I want to see myself, and how I want to be seen by others. Though, the aspect of how I'm seen by others/want to be seen by others is more of a volatile aspect, because I quickly go back and forth between thinking I don't care about that at all and realizing I do.
> 
> I worry much more about losing touch with my identity or becoming banal in the long term than I do the short term. Whenever I start to worry about it(which is fairly often), I start to worry more that it's the beginning of some sort of domino effect that will continue to grow. More than anything, I'm worried about the idea that I'll either forget that it's happening, not realize it's happening, or become too complacent and even accept it. :shocked: That the stress and worry of losing touch with my authentic self will become too great, to a point where it will become easier for me to simply forget about it and trick myself into thinking that I don't want to achieve things I really want to achieve anyway and trick myself into living a boring, meaningless life. I think I'll at least always be okay if I don't lose touch with the ideas of what I want to be or what I want to do, but once I start to give in and forget these things is when I risk my identity.
> 
> There's much more to it than this, and, again, it's hard to explain, but this is the more general idea of it all. This is one of the main things that leads me to the heart triad and type 4, but also why I can see the fear triad and see type 5 or 6 as easily likely. :frustrating:


I agree that it's consistent with the fear triad (especially Six?) as well as the heart triad. I could even see an argument for Nine based on 'self-forgetting' or the line of integration. I also suspect instinctual variants may play into it in a way that I don't feel confident to comment upon. It sounds like your fears about identity have to do with life paths and achievements that matter to you? I think with the 4w5 there's more of an inward focus on who they are, and with the 5w4 it's more like an idiosyncratic lens they view the world through. So my tentative suggestion is that there's an influence from 3/6/9.


----------



## Dangerose

.


----------



## Dangerose

Manuscript said:


> I'm only _here_ for the flowery self-disclosure; it's the unique selling point of these forums. There's very few socially-acceptable avenues to indulge in that behaviour outside literature and therapy. But why not?



Don't look at me I never talk about myself

____________________________________

I don't know, it seems uncharitable to presume people are typing 459 because they want to be unique or individual, I'm sure there are people for whom it feels like confirmation of their traits but I think in most cases people are typing as they see themselves; never heard anyone saying 'I think I'm the rarest type', even if people are mistyping I think it's generally for real reasons at least


----------



## ElectricSlime

Are people actually arguing about the edgiest tritype lol ? Fine. For the record I think Nietzsche was 5w4-4w3-8w7 (yes 4w3, I see 3ish flavor in a lot of what he says. 8w7 because he idealized the greek arete, and didn't have 9ish characteristics beyond being introverted), so I'm rolling with that. 451 is Kierkegaard so I guess that works too.



mp2 said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not being defensive/combative or arguing or anything and I didn't take any offense to what you said at all, just explaining myself and explaining my thought process/confusion. :blushed:


You don't have to justify yourself, I didn't interpret what you said as defensive, and even if I did... who cares? Just get the thoughts out, and if there's any issue I'll address it directly, and I expect the same from you :wink: But really I doubt that would happen anyway haha.



> Image concerns things


Personally I'm getting a lot of 9 out what you write, like you're afraid of losing touch with yourself and losing sight/giving up on your aspirations through your interactions with the outside world, as in merging tendencies. As if, you're more afraid of losing what you have as an identity rather than looking for what is _missing_ in relation to your identity (Fours create an identity and search for meaning, although with aim of authenticity).

Which brings me to another point: You're not "edgy" enough. 4w5s and 5w4 are iconoclasts, destroyers of conventions that leave the shreds in the wind for the pleb to see. I'd expect either to be, but you have both as fixes. And yet I see you as more afraid to lose your identity than to assert it against the expectations of the world. It's not rare for Fours to be uncomfortable in asserting their identity due to self-consciousness, but the desire to do so is very much there and creates an inner conflict, and there's brooding (perhaps even resentment depending on health) accompanying it. 

Not saying that Four isn't your image fix (though maybe it isn't!) but as far as I'm concerned if it is, it takes a backseat to 9, which would be your core. The self loathing could be attributed to the bad tendency of Nines to downplay their importance and worth.

Maybe I'm just spouting crap cause I'm biased towards the kind of Fours I relate to (Marlon Brando, Oscar Wilde and Byron aka the more aggressive ones), so I invite @mistakenforstranger and @Hermetica to chime in if they feel I'm missing something.

Cheers.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> never heard anyone saying 'I think I'm the rarest type', even if people are mistyping I think it's generally for real reasons at least


The internet INFJ population is one big confirmation that the average human being types according to what he wants to see himself as, and is convinced that he must be the most special and rare for he feels misunderstood.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Dunno if 459 is necessarily that edgy, like I'd imagine _triple __withdrawn_ to be too out of touch with everything to have a proper edge to them. 9 is not a bad suggestion for mp2, though.


----------



## Immolate

Remnants said:


> Dunno if 459 is necessarily that edgy, like I'd imagine _triple __withdrawn_ to be too out of touch with everything to have a proper edge to them. 9 is not a bad suggestion for mp2, though.


The edginess is in identifying with something perceived to be rare/unique. Type 5 is exceptionally pathetic when you truly consider it. If your 5w6 self-typing is genuine, then you'll understand the pain of the experience. (None of this is a passive aggressive jab at you, by the way.)

Oh, so, reading back, you're responding to Slime's point about 5w4.

Does your w6 void all edginess?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Has anyone looked up the Oldham Personality Styles ?

Oldham's Personality Styles

I find it quite interesting how it lines up so well with the Enneagram types as a whole, and how every type 6 archetypes I have encountered are in there, from the Prussian to phobic to counterphobic. Interestingly enough, while phobic sixes description would make one think that most of them correlate with the *Sensitive* type, my personal experience outside these boards has been mostly with *Leisurely* Sixes.

As for myself, the *Vigilant* and the *Inventive* are the best fit fo sho. Funny how they're said to line up with 6, 8, 3 and 4.


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> The internet INFJ population is one big confirmation that the average human being types according to what he wants to see himself as, and is convinced that he must be the most special and rare for he feels misunderstood.


Sometimes I swear striving so desperately to be special and nonconformist _is_ actually conformist - Because really, who actually _ever_ says they want to be a "sheep"? Like you want to be original and nonconformist and unique? Type yourself as an ISTJ then. You'll stand out more because there aren't that many on online forums. 



ElectricSlime said:


> Has anyone looked up the Oldham Personality Styles ?
> 
> Oldham's Personality Styles
> 
> I find it quite interesting how it lines up so well with the Enneagram types as a whole, and how every type 6 archetypes I have encountered are in there, from the Prussian to phobic to counterphobic. Interestingly enough, while phobic sixes description would make one think that most of them correlate with the *Sensitive* type, my personal experience outside these boards has been mostly with *Leisurely* Sixes.
> 
> As for myself, the *Vigilant* and the *Inventive* are the best fit fo sho. Funny how they're said to line up with 6, 8, 3 and 4.


I remember getting Serious and Vigilant in my Top 3 (can't remember the 3rd, might have been Mercurial?). I miss the quiz I took for it - it appears to be gone now. I liked the questions it had.


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> Sometimes I swear striving so desperately to be special and nonconformist _is_ actually conformist - Because really, who actually _ever_ says they want to be a "sheep"? Like you want to be original and nonconformist and unique? Type yourself as an ISTJ then. You'll stand out more because there aren't that many on online forums.


Nah if you want to stand out, you type as an ESFJ. Why ? Because ESFJs actually have a very active social life compared to us underground men/women, and they as a trend don't have the patience to go deeper than the Facebook tests to determine their personality. So they don't hang on typology boards. Actually I'm probably wrong, since ESFJs definitely get ENFJ on said Facebook test due to the way it's designed.

The reason why they type as INFJ is because the generic INFJ profile states that 1% of the world population (what do you mean they're basing it on unreliable data ?! :shocked types as INFJ, making it the rarest type. So people start with that idea. Then they get on typology boards and notice discrepancy between the amount of self-typed INFJs and said 1%. Except it doesn't occur to them that they might be the mistyped ones, so they hop on their little crusade to expose the fake INFJs and to prove that they're the _real_ INFJs. That's when the monthly inside war of INFJ witch hunting starts. Inside of it, about one third are mistyped INFP (probably), another third are mistyped ISFJ and the last third is the one that includes a melting pot of all types as well as the actual INFJs. Some of those actual INFJs appearing too "intellectual", they get exiled as INTXs.

That was the INFJ subreddit in a nutshell.

It also kinda applies to INTJ, because of the shitty mastermind title and the amount of cool fictional LSIs getting mistyped as INTJs.



> I remember getting Serious and Vigilant in my Top 3 (can't remember the 3rd, might have been Mercurial?). I miss the quiz I took for it - it appears to be gone now. I liked the questions it had.


How does one get both Serious and Mercurial lmao


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> Has anyone looked up the Oldham Personality Styles ?
> 
> Oldham's Personality Styles
> 
> I find it quite interesting how it lines up so well with the Enneagram types as a whole, and how every type 6 archetypes I have encountered are in there, from the Prussian to phobic to counterphobic. Interestingly enough, while phobic sixes description would make one think that most of them correlate with the *Sensitive* type, my personal experience outside these boards has been mostly with *Leisurely* Sixes.
> 
> As for myself, the *Vigilant* and the *Inventive* are the best fit fo sho. Funny how they're said to line up with 6, 8, 3 and 4.


I am absurdly *Leisurely* and secondarily Sensitive, Serious, Solitary, in some order.

When I'm non-depressed I have a touch of Dramatic and Adventurous in me for fun ^_^

Edit: I learned about Oldham years ago, but to be honest, I would've expected the only correlations for 6 to be either Conscientious or Vigilant. It's nice there's others listed for us.
I have complaints about their MBTI and CF correlations, though.


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> Nah if you want to stand out, you type as an ESFJ.


So either way, something SJ, right? 



ElectricSlime said:


> How does one get both Serious and Mercurial lmao


Are those two suppose to be pretty much opposites? From your reaction, I assume so.

According to a post I made on here back in September, that's what I got. It could have been because of quite a few different things.

1. I guess I gave contradictory answers. And some just plain wrong answers. 

2. Maybe lack of self-knowledge. (Which could go back to the above) Back then, I also thought I was a Fi-dom - which I definitely don't think I am now.

3. Probably had something to do with my mental health at the time. I was pretty stressed out.

4. Other things that I'm not sure how to word (anxiety issues? attachment issues? dysfunctional family life...?) but give me a headache thinking about. 

That was the second time I took it. This was the first time:









So:
1. Serious
2. Solitary (100% not accurate, blame me not subtracting social anxiety from the equation for that)
3. Sensitive
4. Devoted & Self-sacrificing (tie)
5. Mercurial

I still have a couple screenshots of my answers.









This would have likely contributed to Mercurial and I'm pretty sure I gave the same answer the second time. 

















Don't know what this one was about, but I don't think I answered that accurately. If this has to do with being critical of friends and people in my life then no, not in the slightest. I must have been thinking of the thoughts I had in my head about strangers at the time. I remember being more irritable then and seeing things more negatively. 









lol It's more like I'm _intrigued_ by people who live this kind of a life. Corruption intrigues me and there's this desire to expose it. I feel like it might sound a little grandiose of me to say, or whatever the word for it would be, but it is a genuine interest of mine.


----------



## Dangerose

Hm, couldn't find a quiz for it but reading through I guess I'd relate to Artistic or Dramatic, maybe Inventive or Mercurial as well.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> But only a _little_, not overly so. If they were overly particular they'd be 1w2. /s
> 
> During that convo with the other user, I ended up talking myself through, "everyone's a 459... well and there's a few 469s... oh and 145." (145 > 469 tho 'cause I guess 4w5 = 5w4 fix and vice versa? Idk.)
> 
> Though, 146 is probably fourth on that list so I guess I have to suck that up.


So, check this out. I actually didn't end up with 5, although with the way it's set up... I mean, you just have to sit through it. 

Notice my triptype.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Immolate
"edgy" is quite cliche, so I can't really bring myself to associate that word with being unique


----------



## Immolate

Remnants said:


> @*Immolate*
> "edgy" is quite cliche, so I can't really bring myself to associate that word with being unique


I think we're talking past each other.


----------



## Brains

ElectricSlime said:


> Has anyone looked up the Oldham Personality Styles ?
> 
> Oldham's Personality Styles
> 
> I find it quite interesting how it lines up so well with the Enneagram types as a whole, and how every type 6 archetypes I have encountered are in there, from the Prussian to phobic to counterphobic. Interestingly enough, while phobic sixes description would make one think that most of them correlate with the *Sensitive* type, my personal experience outside these boards has been mostly with *Leisurely* Sixes.
> 
> As for myself, the *Vigilant* and the *Inventive* are the best fit fo sho. Funny how they're said to line up with 6, 8, 3 and 4.


There was a test floating around here a while back. Got Vigilant, Idiosyncratic, Aggressive, Sensitive, Adventurous=Conscientious back then.


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> So either way, something SJ, right?


Oh yes, definitely. This is also something I like about Socionics, they kinda dissolved that whole stupid offputting SJ archetype. So the MBTI ISTJ got his characteristics split between the LSI and the SLI, which makes both types less archetypal.



> Are those two suppose to be pretty much opposites? From your reaction, I assume so.


Well the Serious type is supposed to be pretty adamant on obligations and duty, while the mercurial is all about throwing himself into experience. Seems kind of hard to reconcile both in one life lol. I'd imagine the type of story where the woman elopes from her dutiful and boring husband with a younger, more attractive man to live adventures to be about the fallout of a Serious-Mercurial/Dramatic pairing.



> lol It's more like I'm intrigued by people who live this kind of a life. Corruption intrigues me and there's this desire to expose it. I feel like it might sound a little grandiose of me to say, or whatever the word for it would be, but it is a genuine interest of mine.


Reminds me of Dorian Gray, that's fair although I don't relate ^^



Brains said:


> There was a test floating around here a while back. Got Vigilant, Idiosyncratic, Aggressive, Sensitive, Adventurous=Conscientious back then.


I know an ESTP Adventurous, he's pretty much the most boorish cunt I've ever encountered. The quintessential hedonistic sociopath. And he's proud of it too.


----------



## Manuscript

I ought to consider 9w1 again. Notably, I have a fixation on fairness that seems consistent with w1, and it's been a long time since I've exhibited some of the traits that I identified with 5w4 (hatred of intrusion, knowledge hoarding, bizarre use of subjective logic, draw to esoteric subjects, schizoid tendencies). I find it plausible that I could have been disintegrating for several years and therefore identifying as a fear type. I am capable of slipping into a 'go with the flow' mindset to reduce stress, as well as serene acceptance of disappointment by devaluing my own desires. I'm hesitant to see myself as positive-outlook, but I am actually very averse to cynicism unless it's a conclusion I've drawn myself.

I've come to have more identity issues than I used to, but a sticking point has been finding and asserting my own needs against the external background, like a diffuse candlelight trying to show in a sunlit room; and I don't see 4w5 as a realistic option for core type.


----------



## Dangerose

@Manuscript that does sound 9ish (I also think fairness can be as much 9 core as w1, though I guess you might have a particularly 1ish flavour of it

________________

But I don't know enough about 5 or you to have a clear idea

For example:



> serene acceptance of disappointment by devaluing my own desire


seems like it could be 9ish but also potentially 5 (non-attachment?) -but idk how it's supposed to show up
Wish we had better ways of distinguishing between types really or finding out if someone was disintegrating or if it was a core; seems like a weak spot in general; it's really difficult to parse these things out



ElectricSlime said:


> Well the Serious type is supposed to be pretty adamant on obligations and duty, while the mercurial is all about throwing himself into experience.










(GoT characters, just wanted to illustrate)



> Seems kind of hard to reconcile both in one life lol. I'd imagine the type of story where the woman elopes from her dutiful and boring husband with a younger, more attractive man to live adventures to be about the fallout of a Serious-Mercurial/Dramatic pairing.


I like the idea of a personality system with for example two archetypes that someone's torn between, so your personality would be like the kind of story you play out in your life, for instance being between Serious and Mercurial, if that makes sense

or three and like the love triangle of the archetypes, or two warring or complementary archetypes or whatever

edit (five or something): though reading through again the Artistic is almost perfect and the others aren't that great for me


----------



## mp2

Manuscript said:


> Don't the withdrawn types have traits (at low health levels) that resemble common symptoms of depression?
> 
> The issue with invoking social desirability bias is that withdrawn types are not any more socially-desirable than other types outside of typology circles. The bias towards withdrawn types can be explained by self-selection, but this is what the whole argument was designed to avoid to begin with.
> 
> 
> I agree that it's consistent with the fear triad (especially Six?) as well as the heart triad. I could even see an argument for Nine based on 'self-forgetting' or the line of integration. I also suspect instinctual variants may play into it in a way that I don't feel confident to comment upon. It sounds like your fears about identity have to do with life paths and achievements that matter to you? I think with the 4w5 there's more of an inward focus on who they are, and with the 5w4 it's more like an idiosyncratic lens they view the world through. So my tentative suggestion is that there's an influence from 3/6/9.


Thanks a lot for the feedback! 9 is starting to look a lot more likely. I’ve considered a 3 fix a lot and the 359 or 369 archetypes, it’s really hard to see a 3 fix for me though, though that very well could be the case. I could just be misunderstanding it and this may be why I’m confused.  

I would say identity fears are somewhat tied to life paths/achievement, but really only at certain times, and not much more than other things. It’s just a fear of not having an identity or forgetting my identity in general, it can be tied to achievement, relationships, introspection, or anything really. 

It’s a lifelong constant, there’s one instance I was thinking about recently I was thinking might be related to Enneagram because it's an early, simple example of the same core fears and reactions to them I've always had in some form. When I was around 8-9 years old, I remember one day realizing, for the first time, how my interests and hobbies have changed over time and how much I had changed. Then, I realized that things I loved at the moment weren’t going to be constant, that the same thing would happen and I would get to point where I didn’t care about the same things in 5, 10, or 20 years. This seemed like a devastating thought at the time and led to a lengthy depressive episode, because it just made everything in my life seem meaningless. 

This appears to be the same basic fear I have now, but it just appears to change a lot over time and can be applied to more things over time. I’m guessing this might be more in line with 9(that rhymes h, but this sort of thing has also led me to think I might just be an avoidant 7, though that seems less likely.



ElectricSlime said:


> Are people actually arguing about the edgiest tritype lol ? Fine. For the record I think Nietzsche was 5w4-4w3-8w7 (yes 4w3, I see 3ish flavor in a lot of what he says. 8w7 because he idealized the greek arete, and didn't have 9ish characteristics beyond being introverted), so I'm rolling with that. 451 is Kierkegaard so I guess that works too.
> 
> You don't have to justify yourself, I didn't interpret what you said as defensive, and even if I did... who cares? Just get the thoughts out, and if there's any issue I'll address it directly, and I expect the same from you :wink: But really I doubt that would happen anyway haha.
> 
> Personally I'm getting a lot of 9 out what you write, like you're afraid of losing touch with yourself and losing sight/giving up on your aspirations through your interactions with the outside world, as in merging tendencies. As if, you're more afraid of losing what you have as an identity rather than looking for what is _missing_ in relation to your identity (Fours create an identity and search for meaning, although with aim of authenticity).
> 
> Which brings me to another point: You're not "edgy" enough. 4w5s and 5w4 are iconoclasts, destroyers of conventions that leave the shreds in the wind for the pleb to see. I'd expect either to be, but you have both as fixes. And yet I see you as more afraid to lose your identity than to assert it against the expectations of the world. It's not rare for Fours to be uncomfortable in asserting their identity due to self-consciousness, but the desire to do so is very much there and creates an inner conflict, and there's brooding (perhaps even resentment depending on health) accompanying it.
> 
> Not saying that Four isn't your image fix (though maybe it isn't!) but as far as I'm concerned if it is, it takes a backseat to 9, which would be your core. The self loathing could be attributed to the bad tendency of Nines to downplay their importance and worth.
> 
> Maybe I'm just spouting crap cause I'm biased towards the kind of Fours I relate to (Marlon Brando, Oscar Wilde and Byron aka the more aggressive ones), so I invite @mistakenforstranger and @Hermetica to chime in if they feel I'm missing something.
> 
> Cheers.


I just like to be clear and didn’t want to accidentally come across as all ”Bwahh :angry: that’s not what I’m doing!” haha. 

Hm, yes 9 does seem very likely. It seems incredibly likely that the authenticity/search for meaning aspects of four I've seen in myself are coming more from 9. I’ve noticed that too with the edgy aspects when typing myself in that I don't really identify with this aspect. 

I do think I have a desire to assert my identity and that does create an inner conflict with the combination of self-consciousness and low self-esteem/anxiety/depression. And that maybe I’ve just gotten to a point where I continue to fear that I’m unable to do it the more time goes by. One of the main things is worrying that it will only open me up to potential criticism or attacks or further alienate me from others, though I know much of this is unreasonable for me to think and I'd much rather get to a point where these things wouldn't bother me :blushed: Though it's hard to tell how much of a driving force this is, I could be completely wrong about this part of myself and could just be confusing the desire to assert my identity with something else entirely. 

One thing I’ve noticed is that, more recently especially, the idea of having a unique style in clothes/fashion(or other things) kind of scares me. I would like to at times, but it always feels like I’m drawing too much attention to myself. So I avoid anything that really stands out and usually just go with very plain things to blend in. I always feel like I stand out or that I’m too different from people as it is, so I do my best to hide this from others and try to blend in. 

Also, I get the idea that it’s sort of a shortcut to try to express myself in this way, or just lazy. That it’s already hard for me to communicate with people and assert myself to others, so I don’t want to fall back on other things that are easy and lose any motivation to try to assert myself more directly. I don’t view it as lazy or a shortcut if others do it though, just more of a personal thing. So, this seems to go against the need to assert myself and is one reason 4 can be hard to identify with. I’ve always been more ambivalent with this, but I appear to have more of a consistent desire to hide myself from others, and this is probably what drives me more than anything else. 

This could be due to some of the more negative traits of 9. That maybe the desire to assert myself and the inner conflict resulting from self-consciousness could just be more of a result from a fear of losing myself and not really a core fear itself. I can identify with the brooding aspects too and this can lead me to avoid others at times, but I could also see this coming from more of a 9 place, because I can worry about brooding creating conflict more than anything else.

It seems like I need to figure out the cause and effect between these two and then I should have it. Thanks! roud:


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> Well the Serious type is supposed to be pretty adamant on obligations and duty, while the mercurial is all about throwing himself into experience. Seems kind of hard to reconcile both in one life lol. I'd imagine the type of story where the woman elopes from her dutiful and boring husband with a younger, more attractive man to live adventures to be about the fallout of a Serious-Mercurial/Dramatic pairing.


I'm not entirely sure if this is related, but I did use to relate to Jane Eyre. I don't entirely relate to everything about her, but just that whole thing about a young person with this passionate, fiery inner core that they cover up with a layer of ice resonates with me. When I was a kid I had some very mild behavioral issues and was a little bit rebellious. Kinda like Jane herself, but she was dealing with an abusive family life. Then I eventually became a goody-two-shoes who was too timid and anxious to act out against anyone (which I assume is pretty phobic 6-like). There were few lapses from that, except for slapping the crap out of a girl who constantly bossed me and a friend around when I was 12 and refusing to comply with a teacher's orders in high school when she pitched a fit over me not doing some reading (that wasn't even for a grade) and tried to force me to read it outloud. 

Though I was pretty sensible as a kid even before then. I can remember hearing little boys saying they wanted to grow up and be soldiers and thinking what a silly idea that was because it could be dangerous or getting asked out by a crush in kindergarten and thinking they were insane to ask that because we were way too young. 

So idk, either way, Mercurial seems more like an alter-ego while Serious seems closer to what you'd see out of me. 



ElectricSlime said:


> I know an ESTP Adventurous, he's pretty much the most boorish cunt I've ever encountered. The quintessential hedonistic sociopath. And he's proud of it too.


I know one or two. One of them, he's more of an annoying but somewhat lovable goof who Adventurous fits perfectly. The other has shades of 3 (while he's completely devoid of it), but she's Asian so there's a cultural component. Can be a bit snobby but ultimately seems to have a good heart and have an awareness that some of the things she says or thinks might be a bit mean. They both seem to serve the purpose of helping little ENFJ me get more in touch with Se... and relax on the Fe a little. More so with the girl. With the boy, it's more like, "You make my Fe angry." But he's more accurately more of an ISTP.

I also have an ENFP 7w6, who is the closest thing to a best friend that I have, who serves a similar purpose sometimes. One of the few times I skipped class was with him. We had to hide in a closet for half an hour because a security guard walked in the theatre where we were hiding. This was towards the end of my senior year, so it wasn't that big of a deal but there was still this feeling of "Heeheehee breaking the rules heeheehee h:".

I can be such a self-restrained, cautious person and I tend to feel like I need to let it go a little bit. Sometimes what it takes is friends like them sorta just grabbing me by the hand and pulling me into things - which I often enjoy once I'm into it.


----------



## Handsome Dyke

nep2une said:


> I did use to relate to Jane Eyre. I don't entirely relate to everything about her, but just that whole thing about a young person with this passionate, fiery inner core that they cover up with a layer of ice resonates with me.


Interesting. I've read the book twice, and I didn't get the impression that Jane had a passionate side.


----------



## Dangerose

Spine Crusher said:


> Interesting. I've read the book twice, and I didn't get the impression that Jane had a passionate side.


I've been rereading a lot of these books (from category: books teenage girls like) and realizing how much I projected passion onto the characters that wasn't necessarily there

And haven't reread Jane Eyre but I did think...to me she fits this type of like a beautiful frozen winter landscape with a fire burning under the surface, Rochester talks about her like she's an elf, like she speaks this bleak stoic language but . . . I don't know, sitting in the window-sill reading and how she hears Rochester calling to her after the fire, I do get the feeling of like...she's supposed to be like the inverse of Rochester and I don't know, there was one film version that I really hated because the girl seemed _so_ blank-faced and lacking of personality that it seemed to be missing the spark that there should be, to me Jane should be somewhat medieval/Puritan but not...I'm not sure










I like this picture actually, I could have been judging poorly, but I'd prefer an actress more like Michelle Fairley or...I don't know, I guess it's a hard kind of role to portray well, there's someone on the tip of my tongue but I can't think of it










But that image is more my idea of Jane? if it makes sense at all

I'd want to type her as a 1w9 sp/sx ISTJ I think
Like there's the 'Elsa' thing, though...I don't know, don't think I'm making sense


----------



## Manuscript

Nissa Nissa said:


> @Manuscript that does sound 9ish (I also think fairness can be as much 9 core as w1, though I guess you might have a particularly 1ish flavour of it
> 
> But I don't know enough about 5 or you to have a clear idea


It's partly my childhood (ASD + OCD/PANDAS?) giving me a hatred of being treated differently to other people in any way, whether it's positively or negatively. (It also taught me that other people's help is useless, which I had to un-learn.) I will occasionally resent other people for not having firm principles but I'm fairly forgiving and don't usually think about other people's behaviour. So I'm not 1w9 but could be 9w1. I care more about being well-meaning and sympathetic than flawlessly ethical, which I think fits the 'good child' archetype of the 9w1.



> seems like it could be 9ish but also potentially 5 (non-attachment?) -but idk how it's supposed to show up
> Wish we had better ways of distinguishing between types really or finding out if someone was disintegrating or if it was a core; seems like a weak spot in general; it's really difficult to parse these things out


This is an absolute mess that ties into being a sp-dom as well. I've learned to be better at not stressing about what I can't control - and I have a lot to thank for developing that way of thinking - but there's a dark side in the way I end up devaluing my own time/energy and dropping attachments quickly. I think I have to devalue my time/energy because I'm naturally stingy with it, so it balances out. I have a vague ascetic impulse that's neutralised by being a sp-dom, as well as the Four-ish parts of me not really liking that philosophy. I do ask myself whether I can live without what I want, even though the answer may not be a firm 'yes'.


----------



## nep2une

Spine Crusher said:


> Interesting. I've read the book twice, and I didn't get the impression that Jane had a passionate side.


Usually when you look up analysis of the book, there's a general consensus that one of its themes is reason vs passion/emotion and that that's something she struggles with.

Rochester seems to see a side like that in her:

"Do you never laugh, Miss Eyre? Don't trouble yourself to answer--I see you laugh rarely; but you can laugh very merrily: believe me, you are not naturally austere, any more than I am naturally vicious. The Lowood constraint still clings to you somewhat; controlling your features, muffling your voice, and restricting your limbs; and you fear in the presence of a man and a brother--or father, or master, or what you will--to smile too gaily, speak too freely, or move too quickly: but, in time, I think you will learn to be natural with me, as I find it impossible to be conventional with you; and then your looks and movements will have more vivacity and variety than they dare offer now. I see at intervals the glance of a curious sort of bird through the close-set bars of a cage: a vivid, restless, resolute captive is there; were it but free, it would soar cloud-high."

Then you have St. John who has a view like this:

"God and nature intended you for a missionary's wife. It is not personal, but mental endowments they have given you: you are formed for labour, not for love."

But him saying this seems more like trying to stomp out and smother a fire than it does anything else.

More on topic:

I've started getting 9 on tests now. Which at first strikes me as a bit... _ehhh_... I mean, I see the word "peace" and I just think, 'Ew, no.' Peace isn't exactly what I want out of life.Or a quiet life. 

"I'll take a quiet life, a handshake of carbon monoxide" sums up my feelings on that fairly well.

That might just be me equating it with monotony. I haven't warmed up to the idea of "peace" yet.


----------



## Paradigm

@Turi, how's that Facebook "type me" thing going?

(Idk how long it's been but it feels like it's been a while.)


----------



## Turi

Paradigm said:


> @Turi, how's that Facebook "type me" thing going?
> 
> (Idk how long it's been but it feels like it's been a while.)


At the moment, only got week 2 results - week 3 results will be in like 1-2 days.

Right now, this is where I'm at, apparently:
5w4 9w8=1 4w^5/3 (594)	SP! sx so

I'm sure you don't need help deciphering that, but core type is 5w4, equal wings on the 9 tritype and the 5 wing is stronger than the 3 wing on the 4 tritype.

Extreme preference for SP as evidenced by not only capital letters, but an exclamation mark, then sx then so.

Interesting to note is it is _only _people with a preference for SP, that have an extreme preference for any instinct so far.
Nobody has SO! or SX!


I've actually got copies of all the questions so far, they all get e-mailed to me.
I should post them up once the 4 weeks is up, lol.


----------



## Paradigm

Turi said:


> At the moment, only got week 2 results - week 3 results will be in like 1-2 days.
> Right now, this is where I'm at, apparently:
> 5w4 9w8=1 4w^5/3 (594)	SP! sx so
> I'm sure you don't need help deciphering that


No, I appreciated the help xD It's not typical notation.

Why the 9 fix result?



> Interesting to note is it is _only _people with a preference for SP, that have an extreme preference for any instinct so far.
> Nobody has SO! or SX!


Odd. Many times SX-firsts keep talking about how "SX!" they are, even indirectly. Inaccurate and/or small sample? Biased typers (whoever is giving the results)? An actual sample of level-headed non-SPs?



> I've actually got copies of all the questions so far, they all get e-mailed to me.
> I should post them up once the 4 weeks is up, lol.


I'd be interested


----------



## Turi

Paradigm said:


> No, I appreciated the help xD It's not typical notation.
> 
> Why the 9 fix result?
> 
> 
> Odd. Many times SX-firsts keep talking about how "SX!" they are, even indirectly. Inaccurate and/or small sample? Biased typers (whoever is giving the results)? An actual sample of level-headed non-SPs?
> 
> 
> I'd be interested


Not sure why the 9 fix, re: SX types, not sure - maybe they think it's cool?
SP! isn't really one you want to flaunt about, is it?
The sample size is 93.

There's 3 people who are 'undecided', doesn't look like they're been filling out the questions every day i.e dropped out.

Here's how it's lined up at the moment re: popularity.
1 - 19
2 - 14
3 - 4
4 - 8
5 - 13
6 - 3
7 - 11
8 - 7
9 - 11



I've been doing a little more research myself and pretty torn between 4 and 5.

This test says 5, but there's a 4 in the 5w4 and 4w5 tritype things, I don't even know if I believe in them or what they do or how they affect your life, etc.. lol.

Not many 6s in this group, atm.


----------



## Paradigm

Turi said:


> Not sure why the 9 fix, re: SX types, not sure - maybe they think it's cool?
> SP! isn't really one you want to flaunt about, is it?


Most people are anti-SOC, really, 'cause they think it's always sheeple. SX is the jock group. SP is kind of neutral. 
Edit: Perception-wise, I mean. In reality there's a lot more SOC than people type at.



> Here's how it's lined up at the moment re: popularity.
> 1 - 19
> 2 - 14
> 3 - 4
> 4 - 8
> 5 - 13
> 6 - 3
> 7 - 11
> 8 - 7
> 9 - 11


Kinda weird distributions, but interesting nonetheless, thanks  

I would expect 3 to be a bit higher, and obviously 6. Wonder what version of types they're basing their conclusions on.



> This test says 5, but there's a 4 in the 5w4 and 4w5 tritype things, I don't even know if I believe in them or what they do or how they affect your life, etc.. lol.


Eh. Are you asking/talking about tritype, or tritype's wings? 

I think tritype is a valid enough idea, but I think it's too focused on by newbies (and apparently typers, now) and has built up a lot of misconceptions around it. I like to put it as: your core type and instinct should explain 90% of yourself*, tritype just explains the other 10%. I notice people try to use tritype as some magical solution to explain away some "non-type behaviors" instead of either accepting they're human and not a caricature of a type, and/or they're not typing at their true type. Discovery of one's core type should absolutely come first, and any tritype considerations should come afterward - but it ends up coming first and confusing newbies instead.
*Well, the parts that Enneagram can help explain. Not your whole entire self, that's way out of its scope.

As for wings on fixes, it's arguable either way. I like the wings and relate more to 1w9 and 4w5 over 1w2 and 4w3, but I wouldn't say they're a necessary component and understand completely why people wouldn't use them. It's not uncommon to settle at no wings at all, either, even on core.
I do find it weird how often people do that doubling up thinking of "I type at XwY, so my fix must be YwX" (5w4-4w5, 1w2-2w1, 7w8-8w7) - as if the core and wing weren't enough. I'm not saying it's impossible to be XwY-YwX, but I don't think it's half as common as people act like it is.


----------



## star tripper

Paradigm said:


> No, I appreciated the help xD It's not typical notation.
> 
> Why the 9 fix result?
> 
> 
> Odd. Many times SX-firsts keep talking about how "SX!" they are, even indirectly. Inaccurate and/or small sample? Biased typers (whoever is giving the results)? An actual sample of level-headed non-SPs?
> 
> 
> I'd be interested


I know what I'm about to say is pretty off-topic but I notice normal people who don't put on an identity of some kind discern veeeery quickly that they're SP-dom. The "normal folks" as I call them are quick to identify as an unglamorous type because their perceptions aren't distorted by self-identity. On Twitter, I'm acquainted with the rock n' roll community and the country community. Rock folks are the ~finding themselves~ identity seekers. Country folks go with what pretty much fits them. Country folks usually pick sp/so. Sometimes they even admit, "Yah I'm not passionate or creative. That sounds dumb." It's fucking awesome. I actually trust them when they take personality tests. Rock folks definitely try to build an identity and pick answers on personality tests based on this artificial sense of self rather than what they actually are. Lots of sp-lasts in the rock community seemingly except for the braggodocious sp 7s.

Anyway, I think many sp-types really know themselves better than sx-types. I guess because it's by definition isolated from outside influence so to speak?

Edit: Also as this is the Gently Honest Mistype thread, feel free to challenge my typing, anyone. I would rather be right than be a 5/ENTP.


----------



## Brains

star tripper said:


> Edit: Also as this is the Gently Honest Mistype thread, feel free to challenge my typing, anyone. I would rather be right than be a 5/ENTP.


It's a good thing to question. According to Enneagram style - Big 5 correlations Fives as a population are by far the most introverted, only Nines come close (the sample had a heavy 5w4 lean, mind you). According to Naranjo in C&N the most distinct thing about Fives is their introversion. Any 5 + Extravert (esp. from a test and not by functions) typing should raise people's hairs.


----------



## Paradigm

star tripper said:


> I know what I'm about to say is pretty off-topic but I notice normal people who don't put on an identity of some kind discern veeeery quickly that they're SP-dom. The "normal folks" as I call them are quick to identify as an unglamorous type because their perceptions aren't distorted by self-identity. On Twitter, I'm acquainted with the rock n' roll community and the country community. Rock folks are the ~finding themselves~ identity seekers. Country folks go with what pretty much fits them. Country folks usually pick sp/so. Sometimes they even admit, "Yah I'm not passionate or creative. That sounds dumb." It's fucking awesome. I actually trust them when they take personality tests. Rock folks definitely try to build an identity and pick answers on personality tests based on this artificial sense of self rather than what they actually are. Lots of sp-lasts in the rock community seemingly except for the braggodocious sp 7s.
> 
> Anyway, I think many sp-types really know themselves better than sx-types. I guess because it's by definition isolated from outside influence so to speak?


Hm. Interesting :kitteh:

To start with, I don't think that SP types "know themselves better." I think that since SP is "neutral" in terms of how people perceive it it's easier for people to type at having it primary since there's less bias against it. (I genuinely don't see many anti-SP sentiments. I see it called boring sometimes, tedious, etc, by people who don't value it. That's about it. Being "boring" is better received than being "a follower" like SOC is perceived.) So if those country folks most often type at SP/SO, then I would ask whether or not they might be SO/SP instead simply because almost everyone's initial impression of SOC is inaccurate. I have no idea of the community, but if they tend to be like Southern folk in general, then both SP/SO and SO/SP would be sort of archetypal of those ideals. (I think. Idk, I'm kind of a northerner.) 

(And I just wanna say I also admit to being non-creative despite typing at SP/SX and Ni-dom xD I don't think they're dumb, tho.)

But overall I agree with your sentiments about people who are building or maintaining an image (such as your rock community) and how they type themselves. It's really common in general, I think, to type based on persona than true self. I suffered (and still have doubts) with doing that with MBTI to a degree, and with my gut fix. (I'm not a 9-fixed INFP, unfortunately... But I could be a delusional ISFP.)



> Edit: Also as this is the Gently Honest Mistype thread, feel free to challenge my typing, anyone. I would rather be right than be a 5/ENTP.


I genuinely would try my hand at something for you, but I have no opinions on your type tbh. Literally none. You might be an ENTP and/or 5. You might not be. Idk. If you wanna link me to like a questionnaire then I'll read it (eventually; I've a bit of a backlog).


----------



## owlet

Just putting it out there, but curious if there are any opinions on my instinctual stack. It's the area I feel least knowledgeable about (and so less comfortable with).


----------



## mp2

How common is it for MBTI Extraverts to have a 459 tritype?


----------



## ElectricSlime

mp2 said:


> How common is it for MBTI Extraverts to have a 459 tritype?


Impossible, you can hardly get more schizoid than that.


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> Impossible, you can hardly get more schizoid than that.


You don't think it's ever happened at least once?


----------



## Brains

4, 5, and 9 are the most introverted styles, easy. You're just as well asking "how common is it for a person to score high and reaaallllyyy low on Extraversion?" It just does not compute.


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## Paradigm

Brains said:


> 4, 5, and 9 are the most introverted styles, easy. You're just as well asking "how common is it for a person to score high and reaaallllyyy low on Extraversion?" It just does not compute.


There's a lot of extroverted 9s and a good handful of extroverted 4s. Withdrawn doesn't mean being introverted or asocial, it means withdrawing to get your needs met.

Though that applies to core type far more than tritype.


----------



## mp2

I'm never really sure if people mean "impossible" in the literal sense when it comes to typology, or just very, very unlikely.  

It's hard for me to believe anything is impossible though, with around 7 billion people in the world now, the billions of people that have already died, and how ever many other humans there are who have yet to be born, that any combination hasn't happened at least once or won't happen at least once in the future(assuming humans don't go extinct any time too soon and that these theories only apply to humans and not other forms of intelligent species). 

I think 459 is pretty likely for me, but I've had a harder time with MBTI. I type as INTP and that's what others often see me as, but I think it's very likely I'm ESFJ and I was thinking the combination of 459 and ESFJ may be why I can be INXP-ish, but I really have no idea and can't tell if I'm getting close to finding out my type or if I'm barking up the ole nonsense tree :blushed:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> There's a lot of extroverted 9s and a good handful of extroverted 4s. Withdrawn doesn't mean being introverted or asocial, it means withdrawing to get your needs met.
> 
> Though that applies to core type far more than tritype.


Except being triple withdrawn means that all your strategies are centered around it. A 549 tritype is a person who hoards herself (in knowledge and energy), doesn't assert her needs and is constantly self centered in analyzing her thoughts and feelings rather than adapting them to the environment. Put bluntly: it's a person trapped in her own world 95% of the time and that avoids interacting with the environment. The antithesis of an extrovert, be it cognitively or in the everyday meaning of the term. It's the kind of tritype I associate with INFX, the more withdrawn ones that is.



mp2 said:


> I'm never really sure if people mean "impossible" in the literal sense when it comes to typology, or just very, very unlikely.
> 
> It's hard for me to believe anything is impossible though, with around 7 billion people in the world now, the billions of people that have already died, and how ever many other humans there are who have yet to be born, that any combination hasn't happened at least once or won't happen at least once in the future(assuming humans don't go extinct any time too soon and that these theories only apply to humans and not other forms of intelligent species).
> 
> I think 459 is pretty likely for me, but I've had a harder time with MBTI. I type as INTP and that's what others often see me as, but I think it's very likely I'm ESFJ and I was thinking the combination of 459 and ESFJ may be why I can be INXP-ish, but I really have no idea and can't tell if I'm getting close to finding out my type or if I'm barking up the ole nonsense tree :blushed:


I'm thinking if a 594 ESFJ ever existed, natural selection took care to put him out of his misery asap.

But fucking seriously, if such ESFJ ever existed, then I'm the Queen of England. The fact that I have to argue that the notion of a Fe dom whose entire program is either to forge connections with people, create unity and harmony in a group or if you're into socionics: charge the emotional atmosphere with moods and passion, _CAN'T_ be a 594 tritype is ludicrous. I legit expect to wake up from a dream right now.

Edit: And I think you're Te inferior btw


----------



## star tripper

My questionnaire for you two: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1089082-give-me-attention-bitches.html

I might update it but it's still pretty accurate.



Brains said:


> It's a good thing to question. According to Enneagram style - Big 5 correlations Fives as a population are by far the most introverted, only Nines come close (the sample had a heavy 5w4 lean, mind you). According to Naranjo in C&N the most distinct thing about Fives is their introversion. Any 5 + Extravert (esp. from a test and not by functions) typing should raise people's hairs.


I type at ENTP because of Ne. Most people irl wouldn't label me a social extrovert, and people usually say their first impression of me is that I'm "quiet" and keep to myself. I suppose the way to put it is I look like an introvert until I'm interested in something.

I've been entertaining the idea of being an introvert for a few weeks now just because I'm clearly less oriented to the outside world than most extroverts but when I started watching Dexter in high school, I was in love with the amount of agency Dexter had. He had so many balls in the air and he freely moved about the environment. I adopted that a bit and now I'm just so much more clearly assertive and comfortable in the outside world than most introverts it's hard for me to identify as one anymore.

But anyway, yeah, Ne is why I identify as ENTP. I never actually test as an extrovert.



Paradigm said:


> Hm. Interesting :kitteh:
> 
> To start with, I don't think that SP types "know themselves better." I think that since SP is "neutral" in terms of how people perceive it it's easier for people to type at having it primary since there's less bias against it. (I genuinely don't see many anti-SP sentiments. I see it called boring sometimes, tedious, etc, by people who don't value it. That's about it. Being "boring" is better received than being "a follower" like SOC is perceived.) So if those country folks most often type at SP/SO, then I would ask whether or not they might be SO/SP instead simply because almost everyone's initial impression of SOC is inaccurate. I have no idea of the community, but if they tend to be like Southern folk in general, then both SP/SO and SO/SP would be sort of archetypal of those ideals. (I think. Idk, I'm kind of a northerner.)
> 
> (And I just wanna say I also admit to being non-creative despite typing at SP/SX and Ni-dom xD I don't think they're dumb, tho.)
> 
> But overall I agree with your sentiments about people who are building or maintaining an image (such as your rock community) and how they type themselves. It's really common in general, I think, to type based on persona than true self. I suffered (and still have doubts) with doing that with MBTI to a degree, and with my gut fix. (I'm not a 9-fixed INFP, unfortunately... But I could be a delusional ISFP.)
> 
> 
> I genuinely would try my hand at something for you, but I have no opinions on your type tbh. Literally none. You might be an ENTP and/or 5. You might not be. Idk. If you wanna link me to like a questionnaire then I'll read it (eventually; I've a bit of a backlog).


So/sp is pretty popular in the country community too though. And I follow a TON of self-identified ISxJs. Just yesterday I had seen another MBTI test crop up in that group and they were all replying, "Man, the older I get the stronger my preferences are for S and J." It's so refreshing to see. It could be that the average person just doesn't know about the prejudice against certain types, but they're pretty proud of being ISFJ 9w1 so/sp. I usually roll my eyes at the rock folks and don't trust their typings at all, but country folks just... don't give a fuck lol. I think it might be a z factor. Maybe those things that are heralded on places like this forum are just not valued by country fans. Maybe they actually are subscribing to what is valued in that community.

(I know an INFP who also identifies as uncreative and boring and it tickles me pink. I love when people won't kid themselves. It's so refreshing.)

I do think you're right that SP doesn't necessarily know itself better but it's just crazy to me that this large sector of people on Twitter are so honest about being sx-last or SJ or 9 or 2. Tangent alert, but it's also possible that their sexuality influences this somehow. Most of the country fans I follow are gay (men and women alike!), and being gay in the country community is just a very different experience than being gay in essentially any other community. There's more of a sense of containment, of "I'm only out to Twitter and a few friends."

Ugh they're so deliciously regular. They don't... posture and show off the way most people do. They don't pretend to be the popular one or the fun one or the smart one or anything like that. They don't market themselves at all. They're like the anti-Spice Girls.


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> Except being triple withdrawn means that all your strategies are centered around it. A 549 tritype is a person who hoards herself (in knowledge and energy), doesn't assert her needs and is constantly self centered in analyzing her thoughts and feelings rather than adapting them to the environment. Put bluntly: it's a person trapped in her own world 95% of the time and that avoids interacting with the environment. The antithesis of an extrovert, be it cognitively or in the everyday meaning of the term. It's the kind of tritype I associate with INFX, the more withdrawn ones that is.
> 
> I'm thinking if a 594 ESFJ ever existed, natural selection took care to put him out of his misery asap.
> 
> But fucking seriously, if such ESFJ ever existed, then I'm the Queen of England. The fact that I have to argue that the notion of a Fe dom whose entire program is either to forge connections with people, create unity and harmony in a group or if you're into socionics: charge the emotional atmosphere with moods and passion, _CAN'T_ be a 594 tritype is ludicrous. I legit expect to wake up from a dream right now.


I see what you're saying, but I think you're only proving my point here. In that, it can take quite a long time for natural selection to put a combination out of its misery, and that humanity is still new enough for me to fall within the ASAP range. 

It's interesting you mentioned schizoid before, because I think that is a very good point, and I've put a lot of thought into whether I do have schizoid personality disorder and I probably come across that way. I think that would be common for an extroverted 459, but I have avoidant personality disorder(along with other things). 

The two can be very similar, in the way that they go to great lengths to avoid interaction and isolate themselves, but the difference is in the reasoning, in the way that shcizoids are more likely to do so because they have no desire to interact with others, while avoidance still has the desire to do so, but lacks the ability/belief that they can. So, I would think someone that was schizoid would be much, much less likely to post on an internet forum compared to someone that was avoidant. 

I've always wondered if personality disorders and mental disorders are the reason I type as an extroverted 459, but the more I learn the more it appears to be the opposite, that being this combination is the reason I am the way I am in the first place and may be an explanation for personality disorders and mental disorders. It's very, very hard to tell for sure though.  

So, it still seems fairly likely that I'm an ESFJ 459 or possibly an ENTP 459. I think that's part of the reason that noone ever believes I'm ESFJ(especially irl), and why I've been confused for so long and have trouble realizing that I am an ESFJ. 

*Edit:* Oh yeah, I've considered Te inferior/Fi dominant a lot, but it's hard to see either in myself, which is one of the main things that leads me to Ti inferior and ESFJ. It's hard to believe I don't value Fe in some form. Hard to tell though. :blushed: 

Maybe I could be some other tritype, but I think I'm an ESFJ even though I'm oblivious to what others are feeling and go to great lengths to avoid interacting with others. I score close to 100% introversion on any test. Even belonging to an internet forum like this and posting here always bring a great deal of anxiety and I probably won't do this for too long, but I think this is why I have such a hard time recognizing I'm an ESFJ, and why noone else ever sees me as an ESFJ. That I'm an Fe dominant that's unable to interact with people or connect with people, which I think would make a lot of sense for a 459 ESJF(my best guess is 9-5-4 at the moment, but still unsure :thinking: )


----------



## nep2une

star tripper said:


> My questionnaire for you two: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1089082-give-me-attention-bitches.html
> 
> I might update it but it's still pretty accurate.


I read about half of it - and there's certain things that you say that I relate to. Certain things, I don't relate to all of it. For one thing, I don't "dismiss emotions in favor of problem-solving". I do the exact opposite. But I wouldn't be surprised if what we both have as our enneagram/tritype is pretty similar. 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1202538-probably-6-but-what-else.html

I'll post mine, too, since it never got any attention.

edit: I should probably mention that I think most of this doesn't need to really be updated. Except for the answer I gave about "loneliness".


----------



## star tripper

nep2une said:


> I read about half of it - and there's certain things that you say that I relate to. Certain things, I don't relate to all of it. For one thing, I don't "dismiss emotions in favor of problem-solving". I do the exact opposite. But I wouldn't be surprised if what we both have as our enneagram/tritype is pretty similar.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1202538-probably-6-but-what-else.html
> 
> I'll post mine, too, since it never got any attention.


In the interest of honesty, I think in retrospect I was being a bit heavy-handed. If my instincts tell me deep down to do something, I obey regardless of logic. And, as I likely have an anxiety attachment style, I can be pretty neurotic about my relationship. I impulsively phoned my SO a few days ago and freaked out over us essentially being in the "comfortable" stage* in our relationship. So I don't TOTALLY dismiss emotion. However in my post I was specifically thinking of emotions controlling quality of life. I won't let an emotion as dumb as shame keep me from going to Planned Parenthood as an example. I don't let anything impact my sense of agency except I guess my SO lol.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

?

Sp is obviously the best instinct to be. At least I find the idea of being Sp-last quite terrible.

Actually, I find myself envying SoSp sometimes, but it's a particular idea I have of it. And part of the reason is that it seems like the type that is best fit to survive in this world, which is a pretty Sp-ish reason.

And that's one thing, instinctual preference will have an influence on your ideals, but also why do you idealize them.


----------



## ElectricSlime

mp2 said:


> I see what you're saying, but I think you're only proving my point here. In that, it can take quite a long time for natural selection to put a combination out of its misery, and that humanity is still new enough for me to fall within the ASAP range.


Alright. I was just being snarky. I don't attribute enough credit to typology for it to decide if a human being is fit or not for survival. That's dumb. 



> t's interesting you mentioned schizoid before, because I think that is a very good point, and I've put a lot of thought into whether I do have schizoid personality disorder and I probably come across that way. I think that would be common for an extroverted 459, but I have avoidant personality disorder(along with other things).


Are you actually diagnosed by a professional ? 



> I've always wondered if personality disorders and mental disorders are the reason I type as an extroverted 459, but the more I learn the more it appears to be the opposite, that being this combination is the reason I am the way I am in the first place and may be an explanation for personality disorders and mental disorders. It's very, very hard to tell for sure though.


Mathematical probabilities and the Enneagram theory lean towards your conclusion being wrong, actually. 



> *So, it still seems fairly likely* that I'm an ESFJ 459 or possibly an ENTP 459. I think that's part of the reason that noone ever believes I'm ESFJ(especially irl), and why I've been confused for so long and have trouble realizing that I am an ESFJ.


Actually no, it fucking doesn't. Psychological disorders are _not_ likely. Being an extroverted 459 makes no sense within the theory and is certainly not more likely either. Those two combined together are probably as likely as getting hit by lightning a dozen times, actually.

You're not my identical. If you're ENTP, then at least I'm not one. 

As for ESFJs, they're typically queen bees. They throw pajama parties, cook food for their friends and have their clique of gossiping. I try to avoid running on stereotypes but they exist for a reason. They don't give a flying crap about hoarding esoteric knowledge to gain a feeling of competency in dealing with the overwhelming and scary outside world and they don't dwell on their feelings and construct a misfit persona that reflects the depth of their experience. They're conformists, they fit in, they're guardians of society. That's not you, I'd expect someone with a 4 fix that is so focused on authenticity to understand that.
@Brains 

If I told you I was a bubbly INTJ social butterfly mastermind hybrid because of an histrionic disorder, you'd say I'm full of shit wouldn't you ?



> I think I'm an ESFJ even though I'm oblivious to what others are feeling and go to great lengths to avoid interacting with others. That I'm an Fe dominant that's unable to interact with people or connect with people, which I think would make a lot of sense for a 459 ESJF(my best guess is 9-5-4 at the moment, but still unsure :thinking: )


Look, I'm gonna be honest.. This is B.S. This is still the gently honest mistype thread so I'm riding the line as best as I can, but holy shit I want to bash my head on the wall right now. A theory is based on phenomenas from which we can derive general rules and trends. We explain the phenomena by *focusing* on those trends, not on the exceptions. Especially when said exceptions don't make logical sense within the theory. Mathematically speaking, you're not that special of a snowflake.

Lastly, people need to stop trying to reconcile mental disorders with typology. It needs help from a professional, and this pseudo science of ours is not built to include that so chances are it will fuck up your progress and understanding more than anything.


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> Alright. I was just being snarky. I don't attribute enough credit to typology for it to decide if a human being is fit or not for survival. That's dumb.


I was too, and I agree, it is. :laughing: 



> Are you actually diagnosed by a professional ?


Yes, I've been hospitalized dozens of times for psychological reasons, starting at age 8(though at least a few of them were probably unwarranted) I've argued schizoid and schizotypal disorders with profesisonal when I thought I had them, but I have been diagnosed with avoidant personalty disorder, psychotic depression, obsessive compuslive disorder, bipolar, and multiple anxiety disorders(that led to avoidant personality disorder in the first place) by multiple professionals. I know much of it is my own fault, because I typically choose to ignore things and fail to take steps I know I need to take to improve things but eh, you know, :idunno: 



> Mathematical probabilities and the Enneagram theory lean towards your conclusion being wrong, actually.


Possible, but I don't think so. I don't think there's nearly enough known about Enneagram theory to say one way or the other, there isn't even enough information available to say the whole theory isn't complete bullshit, even though I really like the theory, but there's a lot of bullshit I like(including literal cow feces, in the right circumstances). 



> Actually no, it fucking doesn't. Psychological disorders are _not_ likely. Being an extroverted 459 makes no sense within the theory and is certainly not more likely either. Those two combined together are probably as likely as getting hit by lightning a dozen times, actually.


I don't think it would be nearly as unlikely as getting hit by lighting a dozen times, even if it is very, very unlikely, I think being a 459 extovert would at least be slightly more likely, but again there's absolutely no way to judge exactly how likely it is or even if the Enneagram has any merit at all, so it's moot point. 



> You're not my identical. If you're ENTP, then at least I'm not one.
> 
> As for ESFJs, they're typically queen bees. They throw pajama parties, cook food for their friends and have their clique of gossiping. I try to avoid running on stereotypes but they exist for a reason. They don't give a flying crap about hoarding esoteric knowledge to gain a feeling of competency in dealing with the overwhelming and scary outside world and they don't dwell on their feelings and construct a misfit persona that reflects the depth of their experience. They're conformists, they fit in, they're guardians of society. That's not you, I'd expect someone with a 4 fix that is so focused on authenticity to understand that.


Dude, calm the fuck down, seriously. No need to get all fucking weird and bitchy over the whole thing. I know I could be 100% full of shit and misunderstanding things completely, no need to rub it in  

I'm just confused with the whole thing is all. But, those do seem like they could just be stereotypes of ESFJs, even though I agree that stereotypes exist for a reason, but I'm confused because I think I could be a severely mentally ill ESFJ with personality disorders, and that I probably would be a pajama party throwing guardian if I wasn't so fucked up, but it's so hard to tell either way and that's the reason why I'm here in the first place. 

Though, whenever I bring up mental illness in typing myself people just always completely ignore or say it doesn't matter, which only confuses me further. :frustrating: Though I admit that probably is due to my natural tendency to try to hide or downplay my mental illness out of embarrassment. 

*Edit:* I agree that people should stop trying to reconcile mental disorders with typology, that's not what I'm doing or trying to do at all. I'm just trying to figure out my type around the mental disorders and trying to separate what's due to mental disorders and what isn't. I've made a lot of progress with them, but even if I were to somehow instantly remove mental disorders, the damage is still done in the way that it's changed my cognition and behavior to a point where it would still be difficult to tell which MBTI or Enneagram I am. In that I have very, very shitty social skills only because I've spent most of life avoiding people and other things too. It runs in both sides of my family and I've personally witnessed cases of extreme schziphrenia leading to actual brain damage in relatives(something I didn't even know was possible or believe at first but, of course, led to a lot more paranoia on my part after learning this :shocked

I don't see myself as special and have no desire to be a stupid snowflake at all, just simply figure out what type I am and I think the only way to do that, for me, is to consider all possibilities until I figure out which is more likely. :blushed:

*Edit Edit:* I guess what I was saying was that I'm at a point with psychological disorders where figuring out my type(s) could help, in the way that it wouldn't hurt and may even provide a little guidance as to what direction I should go. In that if I realize I'm an ISTJ, I could fit in a few things of being a healthy ISTJ and developing healthy Te or if I'm INFP i could fit in a few things of being a healthy INFP and developing healthy Ne or if I'm 7-2-1 I could incorporate that, that anything about typology would never do any harm and has the potential to help at least a little. roud:


----------



## Bastard

My knowledge of Enneagram is elementary. Go ahead and tell me I'm mistyped. roud:


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> Impossible, you can hardly get more schizoid than that.


 @mp2 as well - it's perfectly possible. Extroversion in JCF/Socionics/function-focused MBTI is simply considered to be 'external' and 'objective' as opposed to an introvert's 'internal' and 'subjective'. It has nothing to do with social extroversion unless you're only looking at Myers-Briggs E/I, S/N, T/F, J/P. Furthermore, JCF/Socionics/MBTI is focused on cognition vs the enneagram which is based more loosely around core fears/motivations people have (and people have all of them, it's just that a few will stand out more as an 'issue' area).


----------



## Brains

mp2 said:


> I'm never really sure if people mean "impossible" in the literal sense when it comes to typology, or just very, very unlikely.
> 
> It's hard for me to believe anything is impossible though, with around 7 billion people in the world now, the billions of people that have already died, and how ever many other humans there are who have yet to be born, that any combination hasn't happened at least once or won't happen at least once in the future(assuming humans don't go extinct any time too soon and that these theories only apply to humans and not other forms of intelligent species).
> 
> I think 459 is pretty likely for me, but I've had a harder time with MBTI. I type as INTP and that's what others often see me as, but I think it's very likely I'm ESFJ and I was thinking the combination of 459 and ESFJ may be why I can be INXP-ish, but I really have no idea and can't tell if I'm getting close to finding out my type or if I'm barking up the ole nonsense tree :blushed:


It's more that it's impossible by definition. MBTI, Jungian type and Enneagram are all descriptions of a separate thing: Your personality. That is the thing that is real, and all the systems simply try to give a good, standalone, reasonably thorough outline for what you are like overall. ESFJ says that you are overall extraverted, 459 says you're very heavily introverted. They just don't make sense as a description of the same person, the same way you can't say a computer case, say, is simultaneously light gray and pure, solid black or calling a person both "short and stocky" and "tall and lanky".

All the systems have some angles they look at your character from that the others don't cover or cover as thorougly, and they divvy things up a little differently, so there's no exact correspondence. But on the broad strokes, the common ground, there has to be some degree of agreement. If not, we can just throw the systems to the trash because things don't mean anything.



ElectricSlime said:


> If I told you I was a bubbly INTJ social butterfly mastermind hybrid because of an histrionic disorder, you'd say I'm full of shit wouldn't you ?


:kitteh:



ElectricSlime said:


> Lastly, people need to stop trying to reconcile mental disorders with typology. It needs help from a professional, and this pseudo science of ours is not built to include that so chances are it will fuck up your progress and understanding more than anything.


As far as I know there's been some work on conceptualizing personality disorders as simply very extreme manifestations of the otherwise ordinary traits (eg. extreme Conscientiousness manifesting as OCPD, etc.)


----------



## mp2

Hm yeah that does make sense. I'm probably Enneagram 9 and either ISFJ or INTP then. :thinking2:


----------



## Paradigm

mp2 said:


> Hm yeah that does make sense. I'm probably Enneagram 9 and either ISFJ or INTP then. :thinking2:


This is pure "vibe" typing, but I'm guessing you're an extroverted core 9. 

I could be wrong. Ignore tritype, though. Find your core type and MBT first, you're just spinning your wheels at the moment trying to do everything at once.

Edit: I forgot we kinda ruled out core 6, my bad. I was basing my 6w7 guess on things like what I told Nissa at some point, sorry.


----------



## Turi

Not that anybody cares, but here's the results of week 3 of that 4 week thing I'm doing.
I have got all the questions so far here, and will upload them when the whole things done - ideally I'd have like, a way to make sense of them, i.e, calculate them, so people can use them.

Here's where mine are at at the moment:

*Week One*
5 SP	

*Week Two*
5w4 9w8=1 4w^5/3 (594)	SP! sx so	

*Week Three*
5w4 1w9 3w4 (513)	SP! Sx so

It's cumulative, so those week 3 results are the results of weeks 1 + 2 + 3.
The differences are that 1w9 has taken the place of 9w8=1, 3w4 has replaced 4w^5/3 and the sx instinct is standing out a little more, evidenced by the capital S, though it's still to a lesser extinct than the SP!



Another cool feature, is this - here's where I stack up for all 9 types, and the instinctual variants so far - I'll split the types into the triads, here's the legend btw:










These can be calculated due to all the questions being scored out of 10.


*Types*

*8 *- 1.01	
*9 *- 1.14	
*1 *- 1.21	

*2 *- 0.19	
*3 *- 1.06	
*4 *- 0.89	

*5 *- 1.81	
*6 *- 0.68	
*7 *- 1.02

*Instinctual Variants*

*SO *- 0.57	
*SP *- 1.51	
*SX *- 0.91


Pretty cool.

edit: I'm the most hardcore type 5 _and_ SP type in the group. :/
Not sure that's something to be proud of.
Nobody else comes close on SP.
There's someone on 1.76 for type 5 so I've kinda got company there.


----------



## Immolate

Brains said:


> That's more 5 ballpark than 3 or 1, as far as correlates go.


So it would be.


----------



## mp2

Brains said:


> @mp2 ISFJ, Fe lean sounds like a great fit. INTP, nah. Ti-Si tends to have a pretty concise and structured style of self-expression which your freeflowing, long, rambly style doesn't fit..


That does seem very likely, but I was pretty drunk during most of the posts I've made here, so that probably affects my style of self-expression to some extent h:


----------



## Immolate

@mp2 I would also say ISFJ for you.

@owlet I'm sure some people here have a strong impression of you as sx-last. I'll think over so/sp and sp/sx a bit.


----------



## mp2

Immolate said:


> @mp2 I would also say ISFJ for you.


That does seem possible and I haven't ruled it out yet, but it's hard to see any sort of Si within myself beyond the past few years, and even now it seems more weak and primitive. When looking at Socionics PoLR Se seems much more likely than ignoring Se, and demonstrative Ni makes the most sense for Ni. So my best guess would be INFP or INTP. It makes more sense that my Si is more of a hidden agenda function.


----------



## Paradigm

Brains said:


> That's more 5 ballpark than 3 or 1, as far as correlates go.


 @Immolate
You heard the man. Get back to your 5 corner before the correlation police finds you.


----------



## Brains

Immolate said:


> So it would be.


Will we see Cup Noodles | Immolate at EVO? 



Paradigm said:


> @Immolate
> You heard the man. Get back to your 5 corner before the correlation police finds you.


:redcard:



ElectricSlime said:


> Test-ENTP is probably a good fit, but I'd toy with a Te-Fi axis functionally (strictly from a non-Socionics POV, no opinions on your sociotype).
> 
> 
> 
> Why ?
Click to expand...

Just a hunch, don't have anything specific about it :/




ElectricSlime said:


> So you think 6w5 and 8w7 are correct or not? Just clarifying, cause your typesetting is a bit confusing.


I think both fixes fit, but 6 core keeps bugging me. If you are a 6 core, 6w5 8w7 all day every day.



ElectricSlime said:


> I can't say much about your Enneagram type, since you don't talk about yourself much as a person (did you say Sp/So ? :wink
> 
> For your cognitive type, you're a thinking type for sure. You're very stable emotionally and give off a "rock-like" vibe. Low discipline and activity (not sure about the latter..?) would point away from ENTJ I think, their industriousness is their pride and "program". You're straight to the point, not inclined to expand unnecessarily and get carried away in abstraction (at least on my standards), which is slightly uncharacteristic for an INTJ but definitely not unheard of. I could very much picture you as an ILI-Te in Socionics, which would explain it. And Se is definitely in your "main stack" imo, even if it's weak or whatever.


I've been accused of being overly private more than once 

To clarify the activity stuff: I very much enjoy being active and longer periods of sloth start driving me insane. Call it the Te or whatever, but getting things done just feels really damn good. On-the-move industrious sadly isn't my default setting, though. I score high on the "brainy version" of activity under Openness, but living in the head too long just results in me running on walls. Reading and so on is interesting and rewarding, but it isn't _satisfying_.

Another name for the activity facet is Adventurousness - the desire to travel the world, for example. I don't have much wanderlust but basically always enjoy travel once I can get arsed to go. Just not something I actively seek out, I'd rather spend the time with friends, working on skills and so on.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Brains said:


> I think both fixes fit, but 6 core keeps bugging me.


You're like the fifth person to tell me that. Do I look that unlike most Sixes ? Cause I'm not a core 8. Too much procrastination instead of action, too guilt prone, more reactive than proactive, too cerebral and while intense and at times obsessive, I don't really struggle with lust.

Unless you meant to imply that I could be an image core. Gotta say, that's an interesting idea to toy with :Smilies3:



> To clarify the activity stuff: I very much enjoy being active and longer periods of sloth start driving me insane. Call it the Te or whatever, but getting things done just feels really damn good. On-the-move industrious sadly isn't my default setting, though. I score high on the "brainy version" of activity under Openness, but living in the head too long just results in me running on walls. Reading and so on is interesting and rewarding, but it isn't _satisfying_.
> 
> Another name for the activity facet is Adventurousness - the desire to travel the world, for example. I don't have much wanderlust but basically always enjoy travel once I can get arsed to go. Just not something I actively seek out, I'd rather spend the time with friends, working on skills and so on.


Yeah, you're Te. I was looking at ISTP briefly for you, but nah.

And it sounds like you just need an outside factor to give you a periodical kick in the ass to get you moving and doing shit. Something all Ns seem to struggle with (except those fucking ENTJs), INTXs especially. Your current typing seems correct. Can't speak for the Enneagram as I said, but if you want my unsubstantiated opinion on vibes alone, maybe you could entertain 5 core with an 8 fix..? I don't know your relationship with dealing with the "outside world", so maybe this is just you being an INTJ that's throwing me off from the 8 core *shrugs*


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> You're like the fifth person to tell me that. Do I look that unlike most Sixes ? Cause I'm not a core 8. Too much procrastination instead of action, too guilt prone, more reactive than proactive, too cerebral and while intense and at times obsessive, I don't really struggle with lust.
> 
> Unless you meant to imply that I could be an image core. Gotta say, that's an interesting idea to toy with


6 or 3 core. But 6w5 makes the most sense imo. 

I think you have a 3 fix, too, and - based on that post I can't be bothered to find - are just a teenager doing/feeling "4 things" like all teenagers. Sorry.

Edit: But if it helps, when you're ~25 and still feel 4ish, I'll... be humbled. Idk, I'm not doing anything crazy like eating a hat.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> 6 or 3 core. But 6w5 makes the most sense imo.
> 
> I think you have a 3 fix, too, and - based on that post I can't be bothered to find - are just a teenager doing/feeling "4 things" like all teenagers. Sorry.
> 
> Edit: But if it helps, when you're ~25 and still feel 4ish, I'll... be humbled. Idk, I'm not doing anything crazy like eating a hat.


Eh that's cool, I'm not particularly offended or anything. I _am_ an edgy teen after all. Coincidentally I looked back on the first thread I made on PerC here (where I was too much of a noob to have confirmation bias and the superpower to trick tests and people): http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...my-deliciously-pretentious-questionnaire.html

A few comments on that thread:
-Wow I was much less of a bitter and negative little creature back then, depression really does a number on you eh
-I already showed much self awareness at the time, surprisingly, what's with knowing about my inner anxiety without typing as a 6 yet (5w6, pretty close!) and not giving a shit about materialistic goals (something I still don't give a shit about and don't think I ever have).
-I feel I do come across as very Threeish there, and either Sx/So or So/Sx. But my sister is a So dom and...yeah...no fucking way

That said, if I'm a core Three I'm a pretty underachieving and not particularly ambitious one. I know some around me, and they're still stretching themselves into four to keep playing sports at the college level, chasing awards, planning to become doctors/lawyers and all that jazz. Me ? I'm scoffing at those plebs from the top of my ivory tower: daydreaming, writing and introspecting. I dunno, I feel like I've made a clean break from Threeish aspirations and I have a hard time imagining myself going back. Even when I was more "conventional" in my endeavors in middle school (i.e being a tryhard jock and a gym rat), I always felt like an alien inside. In fact, I've carried this sense of being "bad inside" my whole life. Also, I fucking suck at putting aside my feelings to get the job done. I wallow in them more than anything.

Ignoring the instinctual stacking, this description fits me to a T:


> Social/Sexual
> 
> This is overall the “lightest” type Four when it comes to social interaction. They are likely to utilize charm and humor. This type is more scattered and can be down right disorganized. They can drift through life always feeling like an outsider, yet they usually have friends. They can alternate from being the life of the party to withdrawing. Intimates will know of their insecurities and dark moody side while acquaintances will see a softer, friendlier side. This subtype’s energy is geared towards people, but they never feel as though they really fit in. They are often quite creative, talented people who have many interests, but they frequently lack the energy to actually accomplish what they would like. They can drift and withdraw very easily. When healthy and with the right support from friends (and perhaps a little push) they tap into their instinctual energy. When they do this, they begin to see how much they can accomplish. A positive connection to others helps them stay focused.


I'm looking at descriptions from Naranjo, Ocean Moonshine and co. right now, and the Three descriptions don't fit that well. The Four ones definitely do however. The one Three content I relate to quite well, interestingly, is this from Riso&Hudson: Type 3 Enneagram Type Description |9types.com

But generally I feel like my Threeish streak serves 6ish ends, into the Strength/Beauty archetype and stuff.

Anyway I'll be heading off to sleep now, as there are limits to exacerbating my sleep depravation. G'night.

Oh yeah and @nep2une, speak up rather than thank posts and staying in the shadows :angry:


----------



## Paradigm

@Brains
Type me according to my Big 5, please?

Extraversion - 7th percentile - extremely low
Agreeableness - 28th percentile - low
Conscientiousness - 8th percentile - extremely low
Neuroticism - 87th percentile - very high
Openness - 34th percentile - low

Details under spoiler, because why not.

* *





Bold + underline is the category. Bolded are outliers in the overall percentile (like, I got three middling scores in Agreeableness than you wouldn't expect from a 28 result). Italics are notes.


*Extraversion - 7th percentile* - extremely low: You are extremely low in extraversion. Extraverts are sociable, like to take risks,and feel lots of positive emotions. 
Activity - 0th percentile - extremely low: You prefer extremely low levels of activity, such as being on the go and staying busy.
Assertiveness - 23rd percentile - very low: There're very low chances that you'll take charge and lead others. _(Note: this is misleading. I lead when no one else is willing, or in the rare case the leadership is fucked up. Otherwise, I don't - which is more typical because there's usually someone out there who would rather lead.)_
*Cheerfulness - 51st percentile - about average:* You experience about average levels of happiness, joy, and other positive emotions.
Excitement Seeking - 28th percentile - low: You like to seek low levels of thrills.
Friendliness - 7th percentile - extremely low: You're extremely low in your desire to be around other people and show an interest in their lives. _(Note: I like being around other people, I just don't show interest in them that often.)_
Gregariousness - 10th percentile - extremely low: You're extremely low in flocking toward other people and being talkative and sociable around them.


*Agreeableness - 28th percentile* - low: You are low in agreeableness. Highly agreeable people tend to do whatever it takes to have positive relationships with other people.
Altruism - 8th percentile - extremely low: You are extremely low in generally wanting to be good to other people, including helping them when they need it.
Cooperation - 20th percentile - very low: There are very low chances that you'll try to get along with other people.
*Modesty - 59th percentile *- about average: You have about average levels of modesty. Modest people don't like to brag or show off, because those types of behaviors can be harmful to relationships.
*Morality - 44th percentile* - about average: Sticking to the rules and treating everyone fairly is of about average value to you.
Sympathy - 37th percentile - low: You have low levels of sympathy for other people, which includes caring about them and wanting what's best for them.
*Trust - 49th percentile* - about average: You're about average in believing that other people are generally good and not out to harm you.
(_I think the altruism and cooperation results are misleading and false respectively. I love cooperation and hate real competition, so that's kinda wtf; though I guess it's not wrong that I'll fight, like, the group consensus if I feel it's wrong. And altruism, I'm willing to give to the needy and help the people who will help themselves, but I feel like this was looking for the type of person who kills themselves to help others or something... Or maybe it's assuming that everyone is middle class and capable of helping others, which I'm not so much. Then again the low altruism score could also be due to my low energy/activity._)​

*Conscientiousness - 8th percentile* - extremely low: You are extremely low in conscientiousness. Highly conscientious people are diligent, hard-working, and responsible.
Achievement Striving - 1st percentile - extremely low: You have extremely low desires to work hard and get ahead.
Cautiousness - 12th percentile - very low: The odds are very high that you'll just jump into things without really thinking them through. You spend very low amounts of time planning what to do.
*Dutifulness - 48th percentile* - about average: You're about average in sticking to your word, keeping your promises, and upholding your obligations.
Orderliness - 28th percentile - low: You prefer low levels of cleanliness and order in your environment.
Self-Discipline - 4th percentile - extremely low: You have extremely low self-discipline—which is the ability to get to work quickly, stay focused, and avoid distractions or procrastination.
*Self-Efficacy - 42nd percentile* - about average: When you need to do something, you have about average ability to get it done and do it well (or maybe more accurately, you believe that your ability is about average).


*Neuroticism - 87th percentile* - very high: You are very high in neuroticism, which means that you experience very high levels of negative emotions, like anger, fear, and stress.
Anger - 97th percentile - extremely high: Your levels of anger and irritability are extremely high. _(Note: I'm a very critical, thus irritable, person, plus I have severe depression that manifests itself as getting annoyed at everything.)_
Anxiety - 70th percentile - high: Compared with other people, you have high stress, fears, and worries about the future.
Depression - 84th percentile - very high: This is NOT "clinical depression." This score simply tells you that, compared with other people, you feel very high amounts of sadness and like yourself to a very low degree.
*Immoderation - 41st percentile* - about average: You have about average self-control when it comes to resisting temptations; there are about average chances that you'll give into your desires and binge (on shopping, eating, drinking, or whatever your vices are). Note that self-discipline (a facet of conscientiousness) deals with your ability to focus your attention on accomplishing goals, whereas immoderation refers to your ability to resist temptations.
Self-Consciousness - 95th percentile - extremely high: You like to draw extremely low levels of attention to yourself, and feel extremely high amounts of unease when interacting with others socially (especially strangers).
Vulnerability - 69th percentile - high: The chances that you'll be overwhelmed by difficult circumstances are high. Notice that this is different from anxiety (which refers to general stress- and fear-proneness) and self-efficacy (a facet of conscientiousness that reflects your confidence in your ability to accomplish tasks). Vulnerability specifically refers to your propensity to feel overwhelmed by difficult situations.


*Openness to Experience - 34th percentile* - low: You are low in openness to experience. Openness is a broad, diffuse personality dimension with many seemingly very different facets. In general, highly open people like a variety of new experiences, whether physical, emotional, intellectual, or cultural.
*Adventurousness - 60th percentile* - about average: Your prefer about average amounts of variety and new experiences in your life (i.e., you have about average openness to new experiences).
Artistic Interests - 3rd percentile - extremely low: You have extremely low love for art, music, and culture (i.e., you have extremely low openness to aesthetic experiences). _(Note: I have a huge love for learning about foreign cultures and languages. I just don't so much with art and music, which doesn't mean I don't appreciate their value, I just don't seek them out much.)_
Emotionality - 13th percentile - very low: Your attunement to your own and others' emotions is very low. Whereas cheerfulness and excitement seeking (facets of extraversion) capture your propensity to feel positive emotions and neuroticism captures your propensity to feel negative emotions, emotionality refers to your overall openness to/desire to truly feel emotions.
Imagination - 24th percentile - very low: You have very low imagination (i.e., you have very low openness to experiences of the imagination). _(Note: Are they confusing imagination with idea generation? I'm confused.)_
*Intellect - 59th percentile* - about average: Your desire to play with ideas, reflect on philosophical concepts, and have deep discussions is about average (i.e., you have about average openness to intellectual experiences).
*Liberalism - 94th percentile* - extremely high: Your political liberalism is extremely high (conversely, your political conservatism is extremely low). This is a facet of openness to experience because liberals tend to desire progressive change, whereas conservatives tend to prefer less political change.


----------



## Turi

@Paradigm - that'd be ISTP via dichotomy, I believe.
Wouldn't have a clue re: Enneagram.

Edit: Don't take this as me saying "you're an ISTP" - because I'd argue against that idea using those exact same results with regards to "functions", lol.


----------



## Animal

Paradigm said:


> Those are behavioral traits. @*nep2une* just quoted me on what I think about the wings (only 6 hours before you posted), which should give you a starting point. If you have non-behavioral things you want to clarify / talk about instead, I'll try and help you if you'd like. Others can jump in if you prefer the behavioral method, though.
> 
> I'm quite confident about me being a 6w7, fwiw. I'm solitary and critical and have halfway decent analytical skills, but my methods of coping are largely distraction-based and I'm more mentally scattered than 6w5s.
> 
> 
> >_> I proposed 2w3 _months_ ago for you :tongue:
> 
> 2w3-1w2 might make more sense, not 2w3-1w9. I don't see enough 8 (let alone 8w7) for a fix in you. I'd personally guess a mix of 2w3-6w7-9w8, because I've been thinking for a while now that I was wrong about seeing a core/fix of 7 in you. ( @*Animal*, wasn't it you who said 6w7 for her?) I could pretty easily see 6w7 core, but I honestly don't pay enough attention to your posts to determine if you're more head or heart, sorry.


I had suggested 7w6 to her on another forum, but I'm completely willing to be wrong because it's @Nissa Nissa's journey and I have also , in the past, seen her as a 2w3. I could also see 6w7 --- in fact, recently I was contemplating that, but I felt bad just randomly writing that after having discussed 2 and 7 in the past. 

Head types are the types I understand least, probably because it's my last fix. I've mixed up a few 6w7 and 7w6s in my time and considered both fixes for myself too. I think I'm getting a better handle on it now so I'm down for a discussion if you want  but I don't know what types you're considering.


----------



## Brains

@Paradigm

Crankified 6 profile. Wouldn't expect w7. cp6w5 most likely.


----------



## Paradigm

Brains said:


> @Paradigm
> 
> Crankified 6 profile. Wouldn't expect w7. cp6w5 most likely.


Crankified? Does that mean I'm cranky or that it's strange results for 6 or that it's stereotypical for 6? 

Idk about that w5 assumption. Did you check out the detailed results? Almost everything that was an "outlier" seemed like 7 things to me, but I don't know Big 5 enough to confirm that. If you're basing the w5 just on the extroversion score then I'm going to ignore that because I think that specific correlation is bogus, but if you have something else then I'd like to hear 

Which part indicates CP? I used to call myself phobic, and still would mostly, but as I get older and such I see myself going more to the CP dark side.


----------



## Paradigm

Turi said:


> @Paradigm - that'd be ISTP via dichotomy, I believe.
> Wouldn't have a clue re: Enneagram.
> 
> Edit: Don't take this as me saying "you're an ISTP" - because I'd argue against that idea using those exact same results with regards to "functions", lol.


Lol that's cool. I got ISTP on a couple tests, but since I like function stacks, I cannot justify typing as a Ti dom. I or anyone else could probably make an argument for Fi, Si, and Ni dom... But Ti(/Fe)? Lol nah.
Dichotomy-wise it wouldn't be too far-fetched, though, depending on if you expect all intuitives to be impractical and crazy creative 24/7.

I'ma Google the MBTI correlations... Got any good websites for that which isn't Similar Minds?


----------



## owlet

Immolate said:


> @*owlet* I'm sure some people here have a strong impression of you as sx-last. I'll think over so/sp and sp/sx a bit.


True. I think the main thing which came out was people thinking I wasn't type 4, but yeah I could see that. Thank you for thinking it over!



mp2 said:


> That does seem possible and I haven't ruled it out yet, but it's hard to see any sort of Si within myself beyond the past few years, and even now it seems more weak and primitive. When looking at Socionics PoLR Se seems much more likely than ignoring Se, and demonstrative Ni makes the most sense for Ni. So my best guess would be INFP or INTP. It makes more sense that my Si is more of a hidden agenda function.


What about Si in you seems weak and primitive, out of curiosity? I've read through your posts but don't have a strong view on your type at the moment. How do you feel about Fi and Ti?


----------



## Darkbloom

mp2 said:


> That does seem very likely, but I was pretty drunk during most of the posts I've made here, so that probably affects my style of self-expression to some extent h:


:laughing:
That's fun to know 


Anyway, I meant to say ISFJ seems right for you, but not sure, generally can't figure out what Si dom is supposed to be like but you are Si/Ne for sure, I'd say Ti/Fe too and Ti dom feels off.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> @*Immolate*
> You heard the man. Get back to your 5 corner before the correlation police finds you.





Brains said:


> :redcard:





(I'm curious to see how Remnants would score, but she'd likely keep her results private.)




owlet said:


> True. I think the main thing which came out was people thinking I wasn't type 4, but yeah I could see that. Thank you for thinking it over!


You have to be perceived as a certain kind of edgy and I don't think you meet that, owlet.


* *


----------



## owlet

Immolate said:


> You have to be perceived as a certain kind of edgy and I don't think you meet that, owlet.
> 
> 
> * *


Hey, I have at least one edge (like a circle :smilet-digitalpoint ). Also that picture is very cute and I may steal it!


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> Hey, I have at least one edge (like a circle :smilet-digitalpoint ). Also that picture is very cute and I may steal it!


You're digging yourself deeper roud:


----------



## mp2

owlet said:


> What about Si in you seems weak and primitive, out of curiosity? I've read through your posts but don't have a strong view on your type at the moment. How do you feel about Fi and Ti?


Just that it’s only seemed to have start developing more recently, and it’s difficult to see any sort of use of Si up through my early 20’s. And even now, I can really only notice it in certain situations, with more random and arbitrary mini-rituals, than as a driving force. 

Even though it’s developed more recently, I don’t seem to be that great at remembering details or recognizing/remembering internal sensations. It’s common to not realize I haven’t eaten all day until later in the evening and forget to pay attention to or care about comfort in any way. But I do seem to have some sort of desire to be an Si dominant, on some level, but when trying to push it or rely on Si more, it becomes more clear that it’s not a dominant or aux function. 

Ne and whatever it is between Fi and Ti have always been more apparent. Plus, there’s the differences with Si dominant relatives I have, and they have a hard time seeing me as dominant Si whenever I make a case for it. It seems possible that I’m Si-inferior and ENFP, but tert Si seems to make more sense. 

Harder to tell between Fi and Ti. I can definitely see what has to be one of them as dominant, but it’s hard to be sure which one it is. It seems to combine with either inferior Te/Fe to a point where it can easily start to look like the other. Though there is a good chance I'm missing something completely and very well could be Si dominant. :crazy: 



Vixey said:


> :laughing:
> That's fun to know
> 
> 
> Anyway, I meant to say ISFJ seems right for you, but not sure, generally can't figure out what Si dom is supposed to be like but you are Si/Ne for sure, I'd say Ti/Fe too and Ti dom feels off.


Oh yeah, that sums up perfectly why I’ve been going through the same circles for about a year now haha.  

I agree Ti dom seems way off, but when looking at all types with aux/tert/inferior Ti, those seem even more off, and Ti dom seems only slightly less off than dominant Fi or aux Fi, so I’m guessing I’m either INTP, INFP, ENFP, or ISFJ, in that order. 

*Edit:* But yeah, almost surely ENFP and PoLR Ti makes the most sense the more I think about it. So, yeah, Ti dom really is way off. :laughing:


----------



## Brains

Paradigm said:


> Crankified? Does that mean I'm cranky or that it's strange results for 6 or that it's stereotypical for 6?
> 
> Idk about that w5 assumption. Did you check out the detailed results? Almost everything that was an "outlier" seemed like 7 things to me, but I don't know Big 5 enough to confirm that. If you're basing the w5 just on the extroversion score then I'm going to ignore that because I think that specific correlation is bogus, but if you have something else then I'd like to hear
> 
> Which part indicates CP? I used to call myself phobic, and still would mostly, but as I get older and such I see myself going more to the CP dark side.


In the research study, Sixes were standout high on Neuroticism and standout low on Openness. Average on Extraversion and Agreeableness. You're super low on Agreeableness and high on the Anger facet, thus the "cranky" remark. Incidentally, Fives are overall by far the most introverted type, and one of the two types to score lowest on Agreeableness (the other being Eights). So you're basically a 50-50 mix of typical 5 and 6 traits. There's some 7 spice in there, to be sure, but the overall pattern would point heavily towards the 5/6 border.



Paradigm said:


> I'ma Google the MBTI correlations... Got any good websites for that which isn't Similar Minds?


Big 5 and MBTI dichotomies are more or less the same thing:
I->E = Extraversion
S->N = Openness
T->F = Agreeableness (and a bit of spice from Openness to Ideas and Openness to Feelings facets from the NEO-PI-R)
P->J = Conscientiousness
Neuroticism has no direct correlate. I and P preferences have a very small correlation with higher Neuroticism.



ElectricSlime said:


> Can't speak for the Enneagram as I said, but if you want my unsubstantiated opinion on vibes alone, maybe you could entertain 5 core with an 8 fix..? I don't know your relationship with dealing with the "outside world", so maybe this is just you being an INTJ that's throwing me off from the 8 core *shrugs*


It has and is being entertained, partly why I ask. My psychometrics look nothing like a 5's though :thinking2:


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> and @nep2une, speak up rather than thank posts and staying in the shadows :angry:


You know, just because you say this, I think I'm going to continue doing just that.


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> You know, just because you say this, I think I'm going to continue doing just that.


Cheeky bastard.

FITE ME


----------



## Paradigm

Brains said:


> In the research study, Sixes were standout high on Neuroticism and standout low on Openness. Average on Extraversion and Agreeableness. You're super low on Agreeableness and high on the Anger facet, thus the "cranky" remark. Incidentally, Fives are overall by far the most introverted type, and one of the two types to score lowest on Agreeableness (the other being Eights). So you're basically a 50-50 mix of typical 5 and 6 traits. There's some 7 spice in there, to be sure, but the overall pattern would point heavily towards the 5/6 border.


Thanks. I think the agreeableness score was more than a bit off tbh, for reasons I noted... There were a lot of questions I kept asking, "but _what do they mean_ by that word?" too. And their reasons for Openness or Unopenness were annoying (like, not being emotional and not creating art are not related to "open to new experiences.")

So anyway, I'll readily agree I'm cranky :tongue:


----------



## Daeva

Took that Big5 test thingy.

Extraversion - Very Low
Agreeableness - Extremely Low (lol)
Conscientiousness - Very Low
Neuroticism - Very High
Openness - Very High

STRONGLY disagree with the Low on Artistic Interests; museums suck, doesn't mean I'm not into "aesthetic experiences." Grrr.








Oooh pretty colors. See? I am OPEN to aesthetic experiences FFS! :frustrating::angry:


----------



## Brains

Paradigm said:


> Thanks. I think the agreeableness score was more than a bit off tbh, for reasons I noted... There were a lot of questions I kept asking, "but _what do they mean_ by that word?" too. And their reasons for Openness or Unopenness were annoying (like, not being emotional and not creating art are not related to "open to new experiences.")
> 
> So anyway, I'll readily agree I'm cranky :tongue:


The Big 5 are born from correlations in the first place, and Openness specifically is the murkiest, most unclear factor to begin with. There's little shortage of people who think it should be divided into Openness per se and Intellect, for example. The problem is the two tend to correlate, so...

I'm personally not a big fan of questions that presume societal things like public funding for art and so on - it's easy to imagine say, the libertarians of the world squirming to answer questions like that. Has everything to do with their politics, zero to do with their appreciation for art. But the correlations are what they are.

Do I love art? Absolutely. Museums? Most I've been dragged to have been museums of modern art (aka pseudoprofound bullshit). Taints the picture a good bit.



Daeva said:


> Took that Big5 test thingy.
> 
> Extraversion - Very Low
> Agreeableness - Extremely Low (lol)
> Conscientiousness - Very Low
> Neuroticism - Very High
> Openness - Very High
> 
> STRONGLY disagree with the Low on Artistic Interests; museums suck, doesn't mean I'm not into "aesthetic experiences." Grrr.
> 
> View attachment 767426
> 
> Oooh pretty colors. See? I am OPEN to aesthetic experiences FFS! :frustrating::angry:


You mean you don't proverbially wet yourself over a hollow pillar of plexiglass that's filled with plastic straws? 

That's close to the 4 pattern, btw, apart from the Agreeableness. The Fours measured in the study were average on Agreeableness.


----------



## Libra Sun

nevermind


----------



## Immolate

I like that people are beating me in neuroticism.


----------



## Darkbloom

One thing I don't like about big 5/makes me feel it doesn't work for me is that I score so high on neuroticism but I always feel like they are referring to something else or something, feel like part of my neuroticism should go into agreeableness or extroversion or even conscientiousness because like...I don't think I'm a very nervous person/I don't focus on my nervousness, generally don't think I'm that negatively emotional compared to people who are clearly always on edge or always in some kind of deep pain and I'm overall very easy to cheer up, remember when I was younger I'd cry hysterically and then someone would like wiggle their pinky finger in front of my face and I'd try my hardest to look serious but I couldn't and I'd start laughing lol, I'm still kinda like that.
Feel like openess might be skewing it a bit too because even though I'm not that neurotic most of the time the times when I am seem more important and interesting and idk.

Also my conscientiousness score is extremely low but for someone with such low conscientiousness I think I'm quite responsible and conscientious for others when I have to be and I deserve a few extra agreeableness points for it at least 
And a couple of things forgiven because I'm sp/sx 

Or like pretty sure i had at least social anxiety all my life but it's so weird to think of it as anxiety, I know it is but I don't focus on the feeling of anxiety or experience it like that? Or it's new for me to think of it like that. As a child especially I always saw my social anxiety as shyness and shyness as a virtue so it was more like "I'm so shy :blushed: roud: :blushed: " than "I'm an anxious mess :fatigue: "



Tests generally make me feel 4-ish lol because they make me feel so misunderstood


----------



## Darkbloom

(got average extroversion and agreeableness, non existent conscientiousness, very high openness and neuroticism)


----------



## Brains

Vixey said:


> One thing I don't like about big 5/makes me feel it doesn't work for me is that I score so high on neuroticism but I always feel like they are referring to something else or something, feel like part of my neuroticism should go into agreeableness or extroversion or even conscientiousness because like...I don't think I'm a very nervous person/I don't focus on my nervousness, generally don't think I'm that negatively emotional compared to people who are clearly always on edge or always in some kind of deep pain and I'm overall very easy to cheer up, remember when I was younger I'd cry hysterically and then someone would like wiggle their pinky finger in front of my face and I'd try my hardest to look serious but I couldn't and I'd start laughing lol, I'm still kinda like that.
> Feel like openess might be skewing it a bit too because even though I'm not that neurotic most of the time the times when I am seem more important and interesting and idk.


One of the more interesting findings from the Big 5 is that positive and negative emotionality are largely separate. It can easily be the case that you respond easily/strongly to both positive and negative stimuli.


----------



## owlet

Decided to have a go at the Big 5 test - maybe gives insight into something:










(More specifics in the spoiler tag)

* *


----------



## Immolate

good lord owl

Edit: holy shit you actually scored lower extraversion, I was 3rd percentile


----------



## owlet

Immolate said:


> good lord owl
> 
> Edit: holy shit you actually scored lower extraversion, I was 3rd percentile


h:


----------



## Darkbloom

Brains said:


> One of the more interesting findings from the Big 5 is that positive and negative emotionality are largely separate. It can easily be the case that you respond easily/strongly to both positive and negative stimuli.


Thanks, think that makes sense for me, not sure what it means when it comes to my scores? 

Always had lots of ups and downs, I'm especially sensitive to that depressive feeling after socializing or a fun event, I get an extreme high and then I suddenly fall down and it feels like death.


----------



## Brains

Vixey said:


> Thanks, think that makes sense for me, not sure what it means when it comes to my scores?
> 
> Always had lots of ups and downs, I'm especially sensitive to that depressive feeling after socializing or a fun event, I get an extreme high and then I suddenly fall down and it feels like death.


Neuroticism is a general measure of negative emotionality, positive emotionality is part of Extraversion.


----------



## Ocean Helm

owlet said:


> Decided to have a go at the Big 5 test - maybe gives insight into something:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (More specifics in the spoiler tag)
> 
> * *


Those results are basically screaming at you "you're INFJ!!!", not like it's an actual substitute for an MBTI test though.


----------



## Dangerose

If @Brains you feel like interpreting in Enneagram terms 

_______________________

suddenly wondering about INFJ; can anyone see it?

Lately I've been pondering that one trouble with my life is that I was always very focused on a conceptual, archetypal understanding of the world and I utterly let experience pass me by until very recently.

Don't have time to elaborate, but I think that explains it more or less...used to really relate to Ni and then a lot of things confused me, can anyone see it though?


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa don't think so 
I mean...it's not like insane but I'd be surprised if we somehow found objective way to determine type and you ended up being an INFJ.
Think ENFP feels right to me except idk about Delta and such, generally not sure how I feel about that entire system though.
Well tbh the more I think about it the more I feel "Oh, it could be right!" but I can feel that way about every F type except SFP


----------



## Turi

Greyhart said:


> I was asked and I delivered Personality Assessor | IPIP-300 Personality Test


ENTP re: dichotomy, lol, if we wanted to grasp at the furthest possible straws we could stab at type 7 Enneagram too, I think.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Immolate said:


> (I'm curious to see how Remnants would score, but she'd likely keep her results private.)


Well, lets see (Big 5 isn't very interesting to me, but it's always fun to have more stats)









The Neuroticism score seems extreme lol, but I am susceptible to depression and overwhelm, and can be pretty irritable. 

That Conscientiousness though. :laughing: Although my Cautiousness is high. Self-efficacy was like 0% - I actually struggle with perfectionism a lot but it holds me back instead, and I am guessing it plays into Neuroticism as well.

And my Cheerfulness is decent though Extroversion in general is low.

Then Openness lol. Well it's true I'm not that open to new experiences (for one thing I can barely bring myself to leave the house), but the part of me that is isn't very cultured, and wouldn't be visiting museums as a first choice. 

And yes, some questions seemed to repeat themselves... So at some point, I answered things somewhat flippantly. 



Brains said:


> The Five population scored totally average on Conscientiousness, which means it either doesn't relate to Fivishness at all and Fives range the gamut on it, or that they're distinctly average on it. No way to tell which from the data, so it's safer to assume Conscientiousness is unrelated.


Hm, I was thinking average makes the most sense. Because on one hand, there's the competency which I can see adding to some aspects of it, though the more superegoish things aren't going to be much of a factor. 



Vixey said:


> Thanks, think that makes sense for me, not sure what it means when it comes to my scores?
> 
> Always had lots of ups and downs, I'm especially sensitive to that depressive feeling after socializing or a fun event, I get an extreme high and then I suddenly fall down and it feels like death.


Indeed, what goes up must come down sooner or later.


----------



## ElectricSlime

I don't buy into Eights being the least neurotic type. Fuck that. Nines are imo. 

The eights I've known, and more especially my former neighbor, had the tendency to accumulate negative emotions (like a fuckton) and discharge them on their family behind closed doors, probably without necessarily meaning to. Likewise, he always came off as some unnecessarily anal dude to us frivolous and irresponsible kids. A walking sleeping anger that moved a huge boundary of energy around him. He didn't really make huge scenes or overcompensate (at least I didn't detect it), but everything about him made it seem like he was confrontational in his every move. Talking, walking, swimming, eating. Pretty sure I would sympathize with the toilet he takes dumps in, and that makes no fucking sense! He never really seemed happy, always discontented and resentful against life. His wife kicked him out of the house, he never beat her (he had a strong sense of honor) but from what I gathered he was still physically threatening to the point of being uncomfortable to people. He also got readily jealous. The other Eights I've met all ran into interpersonal issues with their family for similar reasons, although to varying extents.

Hemingway, an 8, also seemed to fit that profile whenever I read about him.

What I think is that, Eights being classic Eights in thinking they're invincible hot shit and easy to fall in denial, don't *consciously* register negative emotions. But the truth is they seem to be among those that do register them the most, and it shows in their behavior and actions.


----------



## goldthysanura

ElectricSlime said:


> I don't buy into Eights being the least neurotic type. Fuck that. Nines are imo.


I wish that were true...but for me at least, I am actually pretty neurotic especially when I disintegrate to 6, it's just that I'm good at pretending I'm not and maintaining a peaceful exterior even when I'm internally freaking out. The least neurotic (in the Big 5 sense) people I know are 2s and 7s. then again maybe they're also good at pretending.


----------



## Brains

@ElectricSlime 

Those are just test results, can't do much about what they say. It's important to note, though, that Eights are low on reactivity - ie. their internal state doesn't turn mountains into molehills, rather the reverse. What they lack is in Agreeableness. High Agreeableness scorers tend to actively monitor how other people feel, practice empathy and factor that into their decisionmaking. Low scorers don't. That is, Eights. It's not so much active malice as simple obliviousness. Low Agreeableness scores do the simulation of what goes on in others' heads stuff fine, but need a reminder every now and then.

The second thing Agreeableness does is act as a filter or dampener for hostile mental states, particularily turning them into action whether it's speech or violence. Eights, again, lack that filter and being low on Neuroticism probably have a hard time even understanding how things can hurt when a lot of stuff doesn't register as huge to them. The negative signal is still there and drags their mood down a smidge, it just has less immediate impact.

Nines are low on Neuroticism as well, just to a lesser degree, but tend towards high instead of shitty Agreeableness scores, so they have some resilience, more proactively simulate other people's mental states, empathise with them more proactively and have a filter. 

All that stuff adds up into an eventual end impression of the person and it wouldn't surprise me if Nines ended up feeling more stable overall because they care.


----------



## Immolate

@Greyhart is something.

I'll go ahead and post my results/favorite bits:










It stacked rather nicely.










I don't experience happiness as an introverted person.










This is the exception under openness. "Desire to truly feel emotions." I don't understand what this means.

@Remnants I checked my mentions while typing up this response, I have to sharply detour...

My overall conscientiousness score is low but I did score high in cautiousness, and my highest scores under neuroticism are in self-consciousness and vulnerability (well, the second highest is anger, but it's really not that big of an issue in my life, I'm just constantly swatting away irritations, in fact, all of existence is an irritation) (...) Depression comes in next, although the test is more measuring sadness than actual depression. I'm sure my neuroticism would be higher if I was in the middle of a depressive episode or worse, but overall, throughout my life, I've very much tended toward neuroticism. I understand the conflict with openness when life seems ruled by fear, negativity, insecurity, etc. Once that veil lifts, I'd think people can more freely pursue ideas, feelings, experiences.


----------



## ElectricSlime

goldthysanura said:


> I wish that were true...but for me at least, I am actually pretty neurotic especially when I disintegrate to 6, it's just that I'm good at pretending I'm not and maintaining a peaceful exterior even when I'm internally freaking out. The least neurotic (in the Big 5 sense) people I know are 2s and 7s. then again maybe they're also good at pretending.


Dude...

You ever seen a 2 in a needy relationship drama thing ? Neurotic as hell, the double line to the reactive triad (8 and 4, especially 4) is very noticeable.

@Brains

Eights are still reactive triad, let’s not forget that. They also tend to be full of hostile feelings and negative emotions unless healthy, they just decide not to acknowledge it because it might make them “pussies”. it’s something that you see in both Naranjo and Tom Condon’s work. Your points are valid, and confirm my opinion that Eights aren’t uber neurotic either. But Eights have a much easier access to negative feelings and poor mood than other types, even if they blind themselves to it and keep pushing.

I think the Eights that tested (and I’m kind of reluctant to the notion that everyone who took the test isn’t mistyped) didn’t score accurately in neuroticism because they saw it as weakness and systematically denied it. Which is bullshit. Eights are among the first types I imagine turning alcoholic to cope with shit.


----------



## Brains

Immolate said:


> This is the exception under openness. "Desire to truly feel emotions." I don't understand what this means.


Extraversion and Neuroticism indicate how intense your responses to stimuli are, that facet of Openness reflects a tendency to introspect and dwell on what you feel. You could theoretically construct a person whose emotionality is a flat plain both positively and negatively but they'd habitually ponder the sheer flatness of it all. Or someone of high mountains and deep valleys but not given to introspection or to an active want to experience emotional states.


----------



## Immolate

Brains said:


> Extraversion and Neuroticism indicate how intense your responses to stimuli are, that facet of Openness reflects a tendency to introspect and dwell on what you feel. You could theoretically construct a person whose emotionality is a flat plain both positively and negatively but they'd habitually ponder the sheer flatness of it all. Or someone of high mountains and deep valleys but not given to introspection or to an active want to experience emotional states.


I dwell, especially now that I'm in a meaningful relationship, but I struggle to tap into and recognize actual emotional experience. There's a sense of faulty wiring, although at the end of the day, I do prefer to avoid too much immersion, because it's likely that I'd be consumed as I have been in the past.

*Edit:* Fuck :thinking:

I’m reminded of someone who told me they read or watch things just to cry and emotionally purge. I am certainly closed off to that.


----------



## Ocean Helm

ElectricSlime said:


> I don't buy into Eights being the least neurotic type. Fuck that. Nines are imo.


While I think you can be onto something about Eights, why Nines for least neurotic? I think naturally being neurotic (like think of being born with a chemical imbalance in your brain) leads people more in the direction of developing into a Nine, rather than away from it. All the withdrawn types come off as fairly neurotic to me.

Sevens (my personal choice), Threes, and Eights seem like the least neurotic types to me.


----------



## owlet

Brains said:


> I'd lean 9 because of how they're pictured, and because the extent of eg. introversion is more extreme than on Fours. The fours in the research sample were not especially disagreeable, pretty starkly average (that, or they range all over the place. Can't tell from averages). They tend high on Neuroticism, though.
> 
> The Nine verdict is simply due to what theory says about Nines and what the scores themselves say. Withdrawn, other-regarding so they end up not voicing their misgivings (Agreeableness works kind of like a filter for eg. hostile thoughts - low Agreeableness is why Fives and Eights are characterized as blunt types. You can also see in eg. @*Daeva* ). The "Openness proper" side of the Openness trait can generally give a bit of an unserious, daydreamer air in people not high on Conscientiousness.
> 
> ...whiiich brings to mind, Nines didn't score high on that either. :laughing:
> 
> So, uh. One? The only problem is Ones as a population scored systematically pretty low on Openness, but they tend towards introversion and a bit of negative emotionality, are stupid high on Conscientiousness and the Agreeableness scores can probably vary.
> 
> Just no clean fit for you, sorry.


No problem (I broke the system :smilet-digitalpoint). Thanks for the in-depth explanation though! A similar thing happened with the Reinin Dichotomies, where the ones I relate to don't fit any Socionics type.



Ocean Helm said:


> It depends on how you want to type yourself. This would be a good predictor that you'll end up being I-N-F-J by letters, especially because Openness and Conscientiousness are your strongest traits, and they are fairly good predictors of N and (especially) J respectively.
> 
> As for Enneagram, high Conscientiousness would weakly hint against 9 and 4, and support 1 strongly or 6 weakly. But there's a ton of IxFx type 4's of all kinds, of all conscientiousness levels, especially when you consider those with high Openness, so I wouldn't read much into that.


Oh, I see! I haven't typed by the letters for many years (due to getting more into JCF and Socionics). That's interesting though, thanks  I was wondering if the Big 5 results may potentially indicate anything surrounding the instinctual stacks, also?


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> I dunno, can you see me as your identical ?





ElectricSlime said:


> @Nissa Nissa
> 
> Whatever you are I really get a good vibe from you, so I hope we share at least two main functions


yay :ghost2:
(Going to respond to the rest of your post/other posts on here later but this was easy )
Anyways I'm not sure, don't think basing typing off me, the person who changes type more than anyone else in the world, is a good idea :laughing:
We haven't had a chance to argue I think which can help clarify those things, but I do feel we think in a similar ballpark, so I'd agree we probably share at least a pair of functions



Nissa Nissa said:


>





Brains said:


> Low on Neuroticism, you are not a Six, and unlikely to be a Four or a One.
> High on Neuroticism, you are not an Eight and unlikely to be a Seven or a Nine.
> 
> If you are low on Extraversion, you are not an Eight, Seven or Three, and unlikely to be a Two.
> If you are high on Extraversion, you are not a Five or Nine, and unlikely to be a Four.
> 
> If you are low on Openness, you are unlikely to be a Four, Five, Seven or Eight.
> If you are high on Openness, you are not a Nine or Six, and unlikely to be a One.
> 
> If you are low on Agreeableness, you are unlikely to be a Two.
> If you are high on Agreeableness, you are not a Five or an Eight.
> 
> If you are low on Conscientiousness, you are not a One. Three and Eight are unlikely as well.
> If you are high on Conscientiousness, you are unlikely to be a Seven, and Nine gets some iffy points as well.


So One, Six, Eight, and Nine are ruled out for me on this and Seven and Three are unlikely (well, that's more or less how I see it at this point)

So Two, Four, and Five are ok


----------



## Immolate

Brains said:


> Relationships between OPQ and Enneagram types | Anna Brown and Dave Bartram - Academia.edu
> 
> (for profit org, paper not necessarily peer reviewed. Seems sounder than all the forum stats nonsense, anyway.
> 
> Here's the juicy bit aka average profiles, which are probably going to draw a lot of ire:
> View attachment 761786
> 
> 
> 8=8w7, 5=5w4, 9=9w1 basically, populations were very skewed.


I went looking for this link and it turns out it was in another thread.


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> So One, Six, Eight, and Nine are ruled out for me on this and Seven and Three are unlikely (well, that's more or less how I see it at this point)
> So Two, Four, and Five are ok


No one should type themselves from this. "Correlation" means "likely," not "certainly."

As seen by this conversation being kept going, once one person starts doing it, the bandwagon will keep rolling. Let's not, instead.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> No one should type themselves from this. "Correlation" means "likely," not "certainly."
> 
> As seen by this conversation being kept going, once one person starts doing it, the bandwagon will keep rolling. Let's not, instead.


(I wanted to suggest that she go forth with 5.)


----------



## owlet

Paradigm said:


> No one should type themselves from this. "Correlation" means "likely," not "certainly."
> 
> As seen by this conversation being kept going, once one person starts doing it, the bandwagon will keep rolling. Let's not, instead.


Reminds me of the example for 'correlation not causation':


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> No one should type themselves from this. "Correlation" means "likely," not "certainly."
> 
> As seen by this conversation being kept going, once one person starts doing it, the bandwagon will keep rolling. Let's not, instead.


It will likely keep going until someone comes up with a more interesting topic.


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> No one should type themselves from this. "Correlation" means "likely," not "certainly."
> 
> As seen by this conversation being kept going, once one person starts doing it, the bandwagon will keep rolling. Let's not, instead.


but it's funnn :saturn::idunno:nthego::butterfly:

(I don't really get the point of correlations and wouldn't seriously base my typing off it, but it's interesting to see and I want the most of the time I spent on that 300-question quiz )



Immolate said:


> (I wanted to suggest that she go forth with 5.)


I think it's the obvious choice :bee:


----------



## owlet

May I ask for some input on instinctual stacks?


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Enneagram Blogspot: Scientific Proof for the Enneagram

Look on the validity of my reasoning, ye fucktards, and despair.


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> Ti-ish? Do you mean to say that owl using qualifying words is Ti-ish, and so she is more on the Ti valuing side of things, or that the linguistic nitpicking by the people typing her at 9 was Ti-ish, or both, or... ?


The first one probably, just being very exact (but I could mean both, I'll take that)



> I didn't ask about 5, so I'm not sure about that slip on your end. Do you have a firm idea about 9, then?


Well, I was going to say withdrawn types, but then I think my idea of what Nine is, is firmer at this point, not in the same level, so I just said 4 and 5



ElectricSlime said:


> @Nissa Nissa
> 
> I don’t have access to a computer right now so I’ll address the meat later but I’ll say that Crime and Punishment, in terms of vibe, is probably more Sp/Sx. It gets more Sx/Sp towards the end though. Raskolnikov himself is a counterphobic 6w5 *(fuck the people typing him as 5w4)* a bit hard to sort out Sp dom from w5 tho :/


Like me 

Isn't his Uebermensch thing like a 5 (trying in a horrible way) to integrate to 8?

(Also don't have time but I have more thoughts, want to hear more about sp/sx (seems good, I just got a permeating sense of so-last )


----------



## Immolate

Nissa Nissa said:


> The first one probably, just being very exact (but I could mean both, I'll take that)


 @owlet You're Ti.



> Well, I was going to say withdrawn types, but then I think my idea of what Nine is, is firmer at this point, not in the same level, so I just said 4 and 5


So, if it's firmer, can you discuss what you understand about 9?


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> Yes, this is what I was trying to say, went about it in the clumsiest possible manner))
> But yes, but I'm not really sure what the metric is for awareness.


So you and @mistakenforstranger would say awareness (learned or otherwise) of social things would = SO-first or second?



> Hm
> I'm trying to get a clear picture of what it would mean to be asexual and not sx-first, I guess I have an image of how that could be but it seems...unlikely, at least
> But the problem with sx is that no one seems to agree what it is :frustrating: Like if the definition where sx=sex, no sx without sex, then presumably it would _not_ be possible for an asexual person to be sx-first or even sx-second, but that doesn't seem quite right
> I'd probably boil sx down to libido? And you can have physical libido or mental, emotional, even spiritual libido, but I'd categorize a sx-first mindset as more or less shaped by the libido, by the concentrated flow of energy?


Well, it's more that SX isn't about sex, it's about wanting an intense, close bond with select individuals or to be involved with things which the person is very passionate about. Someone who's SX-first may, for example, do nothing but paint a series of paintings for days on end because (without tempering by SO or SP), it's about being caught up in the 'being drawn to' something, at least as far as I've come to understand.



> Hm
> You're definitely filtering through sp  but I think I could see sp/sx? Not sure at all, hope someone else has thoughts


Yeah, I still say sp/sp but that's illegal.




> Annoying to talk about shows you don't really know I know but I was wondering why I said 9 and not 5, I have *no idea* how 5 is supposed to look I think, serious blindspot :laughing: but yeah I don't know either way


5 is focused around gathering information in order to 'be prepared' for anything and so not have to fear the external so much, whereas 9 is focused on avoiding stimuli which disrupt an internally peaceful state, if that's any help?



> No good thoughts, just some annoying comments:
> 
> -If you're a 4 than probably drive to be invested in society is unlikely
> -I think everyone agrees I'm so-first or second and I relate to this (though I'm aware for example on PerC or in real life which people have more pull and can influence other people, often wonder _why_ that happens, but I'm aware it's a thing I subconsciously take into account and that affects how I do things, I guess I can be strategic like...I know I can't ask x person y question so I might ask z person to ask for me if it seems more...appropriate? and I'm interested in analyzing these things, but more interested in analyzing than participating...but I definitely find it easy to be in my own bubble and disconnect from the world, people can feel like a chore, so I wouldn't say an generally isolated way of being is so-last necessarily...unless I'm just wildly mistyped on that count)


Hm, I did consider the idea of 4 inferring, but the issue there is that SO 4s are focused on how they don't fit in and feel defective in how they're unable to be a part of society/their group etc. etc. whereas I've never had that concern - 'fitting in' has never been something I've thought of unless brought up by someone else.
Would you say you're invested in things like your/other's position in a group, being a part of it etc.?



Nissa Nissa said:


> The first one probably, just being very exact (but I could mean both, I'll take that)





Immolate said:


> @*owlet* You're Ti.


:smilet-digitalpoint


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> :smilet-digitalpoint


Does it make you feel olde? I don't think you'll move away from Ti 9w1 sp/so.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> No idea, 4 and 5 confuse me a lot as types tbh so I don't have firm ideas about what they are


I feel that way about 4. 5 is more intuitive to get, though I have been reconsidering my initial ideas. 9 was initially confusing (doesn't help that it's so "vague") but I think it makes sense at this point. However, I don't think I'll ever get a clear grasp on 4 and it's frustrating. 

Reminds me of this ("when I think I've got it and then at last/through my bony fingers it does slip/like a snowflake in a fiery grasp") which is ironic since Jack is a 4 =P


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> @owlet You're Ti.
> 
> So, if it's firmer, can you discuss what you understand about 9?


Oh, I thought owlet was typing at Ti 

Maybe sometime in the course of discussion, feels strange to write out everything I think about type 9 and I wouldn't know where to begin lol



owlet said:


> So you and @mistakenforstranger would say awareness (learned or otherwise) of social things would = SO-first or second?


I mean, I wouldn't because everyone has some, it's like if someone likes food or wants a relationship it's not anti sp or sx last

But I'd vaguely wager that routinely checking up on social things, having a running sensor would indicate not so-last particularly in withdrawn types? But I have no idea what the required amount is, or if you meet that



> Well, it's more that SX isn't about sex, it's about wanting an intense, close bond with select individuals or to be involved with things which the person is very passionate about. Someone who's SX-first may, for example, do nothing but paint a series of paintings for days on end because (without tempering by SO or SP), it's about being caught up in the 'being drawn to' something, at least as far as I've come to understand.


Yes, I think that's similar to what I was saying
Do you find yourself doing that kind of thing?



> Yeah, I still say sp/sp but that's illegal.


make your own law, if anyone can do it it's a sp/sp 



> 5 is focused around gathering information in order to 'be prepared' for anything and so not have to fear the external so much, whereas 9 is focused on avoiding stimuli which disrupt an internally peaceful state, if that's any help?


Yeah (I love your phrasing for 9!) but I guess it's that I don't know any 5s, haven't seen any good examples of 5s, don't really understand how it's supposed to play out practically



> Hm, I did consider the idea of 4 inferring, but the issue there is that SO 4s are focused on how they don't fit in and feel defective in how they're unable to be a part of society/their group etc. etc. whereas I've never had that concern - 'fitting in' has never been something I've thought of unless brought up by someone else.


hm, ok



> Would you say you're invested in things like your/other's position in a group, being a part of it etc.?


I don't encounter that many group situations, usually I just feel awkward and . . . I never actually have a position in a group because I'm always just hanging around near the side trying to look like I'm doing what I'm supposed to

What's social about me (and there is 2 and 7 and just strange silliness interference) is that I am interested in how people are classing me group-wise, or just what people in general think of me, if I'm in a big city for instance I want to be the prettiest girl on every street, I hope people are thinking and wondering about me but in a good way lol, I want to look like...I don't know how to phrase it, a standard of class and intellect, lol, I like it when my family invites over people who are really intelligent and elegant because I can kinda feel like 'ooh we're the intelligent elegant people in the city' (I also just...enjoy intelligence and elegance so the weird vanity is just an added bonus). I don't know how _invested_ I am in that, it's not like I do anything to further it really and it can feel more like a game. But it's very...I wouldn't expect most people to relate to that, who weren't positive image types (which is the phrase I felt like using to describe 2 and 3) and...it's kinda a Ne thing for me too, I like to make stories out of things and that's one way to do it, it's not serious the way it kinda sounds, if that makes sense

So probably not relevant for you, but the nitty-gritty parts of the social instinct aren't that relatable, hard to explain in a way that is what I mean though, it's...silly and odd

(have to go or I'd try to clean up those thoughts a bit more)


----------



## Immolate

Nissa Nissa said:


> Maybe sometime in the course of discussion, feels strange to write out everything I think about type 9 and I wouldn't know where to begin lol


This is just seeming very avoidant and wishy-washy at this point. No point in further engaging.


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> This is just seeming very avoidant and wishy-washy at this point. No point in further engaging.


I'm ok with avoiding writing up a term paper on my understanding of Type Nine because you asked, I think it's reasonable, it's a weird thing to ask someone to do


----------



## mistakenforstranger

owlet said:


> It's troublesome when looking through SX discussions which revolve around romantic relationships, when people who are asexual can be SX-first, or that SX-firsts are put forward as being completely irresponsible when circumstances may well not allow for that kind of thing etc. etc.


Hmm, but why wouldn't it be about romantic relationships? Sx is about intimacy, one-to-one, which most obviously would occur in the context of romantic relationships. I think you're right that someone can be asexual and sx-first, but is this a normal expression of the instinct? Though, I obviously don't mean asexual people are not normal, but it doesn't seem like the "norm", when there are plenty of sx-firsts who wouldn't be asexual.



> Which I mentioned previously as having the major issue of I really have no focus on/interest or investment in a 'position' in a group or society - my older sister is very interested in that kind of thing, wanting to have her own house and be affluent to ensure she can afford luxury items and 'fit in' with the people her age around her (I'd take a guess she's SO/SP or SP/SO).


With your sister it sounds more like so/sp, as a sp-first would probably want that for the sense of security it brings rather than to be similar to the group.



> Sure, okay. With SX I don't relate to the energy behind it (I'm a naturally low-energy, generally exhausted person) or doing irresponsible things or chasing after people for romantic relationships, but I do relate to enjoying intensity, especially in my imagination and writing, and having a very intense focus on one or two people at a time (I was told when I was young that my relationships with friends were too intense and friends were more for just light-hearted interactions). As I've grown older though, I found that being very intense with people I liked would make them uncomfortable so I try my best not to express that any more.


Well, I do think most sx-descriptions are over-the-top and dramatic, which makes it hard to discern what it is, but then I don't know if that's my own bias as sx-last (I'm still questioning if I am), but there's this weird "fetish" (Because Sx! :wink of it on forums and in descriptions I've noticed, where it's the instinct put on a pedestal over the other ones. 



> (I was told when I was young that my relationships with friends were too intense and friends were more for just light-hearted interactions). As I've grown older though, I found that being very intense with people I liked would make them uncomfortable so I try my best not to express that any more.


I've actually seen that in myself too, where I've just learned to tamp down my "intensity", or at least let's say interest, with people growing up, because they didn't want to go there with me, or even couldn't, so that now when someone is interested in me, it can be too much, and give me my space! 



> I do have an awareness of it these days in terms of cultural studies and social theory, and I really enjoy studying those (it's often like reading a story, learning about cultural history especially). I wouldn't say every person who's an anthropologist or sociologist is SO-first or second though. SO seems largely focused on a position withing society, feeling a part of that society and contributing to it (or wanting to). *I have no interest in society as something to be a part of or contribute to. I've never felt part of a culture or society (even in terms of enjoying things like media, I've never been a 'fan' in the way some people are, being a part of a fandom etc. I just enjoy the thing on my own or talk about it with very close friends)*. I went into how I relate/don't relate in reply to Nissa² so that should answer that part, right?


It would be weird to me actually if someone was a social-last anthropologist/sociologist haha, like that's exactly what's Social is about, but that's my own understanding of how instincts manifest, so you don't have to agree with me. 

Though, would you say you would focus on/invest in those societies you are interested in and value if you had the chance, like I think you mentioned Japanese culture? Being against one's own society/culture can be related to 4 too, and we definitely see that in Social 4s, since they can be one of the most non-conforming types out there. 

Couldn't enjoying the thing on your own or with close friends be Introversion? I would agree that most Social types would probably want to belong to a community (fan-base) of their interest, though.



> I'd say more than awareness, it's about 'investment'. People are aware of a wide variety of things for a wide variety of reasons, but to invest in something shows stronger feeling behind it.


I don't know, as I'm not really invested into society all that much myself, but I tend to keep up with it, as in have an awareness of it. It's on my radar.

And if it was about investment instead, then someone who is asexual wouldn't be sx-first, right?



Nissa Nissa said:


> Hm
> I'm trying to get a clear picture of what it would mean to be asexual and not sx-first, I guess I have an image of how that could be but it seems...unlikely, at least


This person strikes me as a 4 sx-last, you can definitely see her Social focus here, unless I misunderstood what you were looking for...:blushed:


* *












Actually, it's kind of strange to me that someone would want this, being aromantic, or expect this from their partner, and I'm saying that as someone who is not a sexual person at all.


> But the problem with sx is that no one seems to agree what it is :frustrating: Like if the definition where sx=sex, no sx without sex, then presumably it would _not_ be possible for an asexual person to be sx-first or even sx-second, but that doesn't seem quite right


Yeah, I agree. WTF is it? So many different definitions, but I think sx has to look for some form of intimacy, right, whether sexual in nature or not, in a closeness with the "other"?



> I'd probably boil sx down to libido? And you can have physical libido or mental, emotional, even spiritual libido, but I'd categorize a sx-first mindset as more or less shaped by the libido, by the concentrated flow of energy?


:thinking: So something akin to desire? I can see that being part of it.


* *





I see Interpol as 4w5 sp/sx, but this song is sx, or about sx






Be my desire
I'm a frustrated man
Summon us for peace
We do what we can
Feel my desire
Favor the bold
Some of us fall to the earth
These others roam
Besieged by desire

Come on baby you played me out
You play me out
That looked like your chance to me
But you play me out
So now I gave you up
It's time for a change of heart

See my desire
No solemn moods
All of us are teammates
We stick to the rules
It's a real life desire

Come on baby
Play me out
You lay me out
That looked like your chance to me
You play me out
So now I gave you up
It's time for a change of heart

I've been there
I've been here
Erased

Be my desire
I'm a frustrated man
Some of us fall to the earth
These others ran
They flee my desire

Come on baby
You played me out
You lay me out
So it's time for a change of heart
You played me out
So I have gave you up
You won't find no scars on me

I've been there
I've been here
Erased

I've been there
I've been near
Erased






> No good thoughts, just some annoying comments:
> 
> -If you're a 4 than probably drive to be invested in society is unlikely


Yeah



owlet said:


> So you and @*mistakenforstranger* would say awareness (learned or otherwise) of social things would = SO-first or second?


I think Nissa answered this better, but I just think it would obviously be less awareness than someone who has it as their first instinct. I think that's safe to say.



> Well, it's more that SX isn't about sex, it's about wanting an intense, close bond with select individuals or to be involved with things which the person is very passionate about. Someone who's SX-first may, for example, do nothing but paint a series of paintings for days on end because (without tempering by SO or SP), it's about being caught up in the 'being drawn to' something, at least as far as I've come to understand.


I agree, but I'm always unconvinced of this when people say their sx-instinct manifests in other areas like this because they are passionate about something, like wouldn't that be true for everyone?


----------



## Immolate

Nissa Nissa said:


> I'm ok with avoiding writing up a term paper on my understanding of Type Nine because you asked, I think it's reasonable, it's a weird thing to ask someone to do


You know that's not what I requested.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Sometimes I ponder the thought of being a core 5, given how in descriptions like these:


> Misidentifying Fives and Sixes
> Fives and Sixes are both Thinking types and, when educated, can both be quite intellectual. It is far more common for Sixes to mistype as Fives, but for some easily understood reasons. Of the two types, Sixes tend to be more linear and analytical in their thinking because they are interested in troubleshooting, in prediction, and in establishing methods that can be repeated. Thus, contrary to popular belief, the world of academia and higher education is more the realm of Sixes than of Fives. Academia teaches students to work with advisors and mentors, to cite sources and back up arguments with quotes from authorities, to follow proper procedures in papers and theses, and so forth–all type Six values.
> 
> Fives are much more non-linear in their thinking. They are interested in finding out where established theories break down and in developing iconoclastic ideas that shake up structures and established methods. Fives are, generally speaking, bolder than Sixes in their positions and creativity, but also far less practical. Fives feel that they can only trust their own minds to come to conclusions–they believe that everyone else is likely to be less well-informed. Sixes get frantic trying to find something to trust precisely because they do not trust their own minds to come to meaningful conclusions.


all the 5 stuff applies to me over 6. That and the fact that my mother, a hardcore Six if I've ever seen one, manages to annoy me by nearly breaking down over every difficulty, shooting down my initiatives and reinforcing my already existing tendency to distrust people.

Then I realize I'm not all that detached from things, that I don't overidentify with my intellect (I mean to the standards of the people I know yes, but not to the standards discussed here) which kinda ties in with the fact that while I relate A LOT to the lower health levels of E5 the higher ones are WAY too intellectually focused (there are other things to life than thinking up iconoclastic ideas ffs). Just felt like throwing this out there. Still think I'm a 6 though.


mistakenforstranger said:


> This person strikes me as a 4 sx-last, you can definitely see her Social focus here, unless I misunderstood what you were looking for...:blushed:


Do you, too, wear overalls and a flowery crown at home ? :wink:


----------



## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> Do you, too, wear overalls and a flowery crown at home ? :wink:


:laughing: Fuck no. That's her 3-wing obviously. :tongue: She is really annoying, tbh.


----------



## Dangerose

Immolate said:


> You know that's not what I requested.


Well I'm not going to just write posts on request, you're not my examiner :/


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> Like me
> 
> Isn't his Uebermensch thing like a 5 (trying in a horrible way) to integrate to 8?
> 
> *(Also don't have time but I have more thoughts, want to hear more about sp/sx (seems good, I just got a permeating sense of so-last )*


First off, I went through the cringy ubermensch thing myself. I think it's a grandiose fantasy in the reach of any grumpy "intellectual" teenager that hates people and seeks to overcompensate for feelings on inadequacy and pent up frustration with reality. It's also a good distraction to keep angst away, until you realize it's freaking bullshit because looking down on people and alienating yourselves from closed ones for empty ideals is no way to live a fulfilling life and help other people go through their day.

Now on to Raskolnikov. There's a bit of what I mentioned up there, but fundamentally it's a way to rationalize and cope with reality being such a shit hole, despite the so called touch of God in creating it. That's the overarching theme, one that comes back and gets further expanded in The Brothers K. In Raskolnikov himself, it mostly manifests as a rebellion against his complying tendencies and impulses, impulses that very much show up despite how much he tries to shove them away. That's the split personality of Rodion, who seems to vacillate from deeply human and noble fellow to cold, prideful and self centered intellectual douchebag. While Raskolnikov experiences frequent doubts, they aren't particularly related to not feeling knowledgeable and competent enough in dealing with the outside world, it turns inwards in the doubting of his impulse, the constant thinking that gets muddled and unproductive while he strolls through town, he can't make sense of anything inwards because his thinking gets confused with his doubts and feelings and he lacks any kind of solid gut instinct to anchors his mind to. Likewise, he seeks external confirmation for his theory and impulses to spring him into action, as evidenced by his subsequent projection to overhearing students bitching about the pawnbroker. He also manifests the typical 6 retardation in how he either thinks too much and doesn't act enough or acts too impulsively without thinking enough, sometimes in the span of a few minutes. Guy is a bundle of contradictions yo. There's a clear lack of detachment in the man that you don't see in his final draft, I'm of course talking of Ivan, who is the 5 in D's works imo, with a 1ish streak I could also argue.

Ivan is passive and blinds himself to some of his desires (like his feelings to Dimitri's wife). He also doesn't talk much with people and never lets himself get dragged through bullshit like Dimitri's and Alyosha's girlfriend dramas. He's cut off from people, an observer. He'd never put up with Marmeladov's endless ramblings at some bar and get dragged into getting involved with the family, nor interfere with Svidrigailov being insistent with a prostitute, and other instances of the sort. His protestation, as opposed to Raskolnikov, is a quiet one. His whole idea about moral relativism is entertained solely in the form of intellectual discourse but he feels no need to check it against the environment, to test its strength and validity. Ivan would never put the theory into action the way Raskolnikov did, which is why good old plot device Smerdyakov exists. 

Now it's true that the circumstances are kinda favoring Raskolnikov's springing into action as opposed to Ivan, since he's poor and nearly starving, and his sister plans to marry some shallow arrogant doofus. But I think the temperaments are different enough to point to Raskolnikov being much more compelled towards people as a whole and being a more involved and reactive person in general. I wouldn't describe Raskolnikov as an "Observer", even though he's definitely introverted. But Ivan ? Sure.

Edit: Btw, was the bolded meant for me ?


----------



## Immolate

Nissa Nissa said:


> Well I'm not going to just write posts on request, you're not my examiner :/


(I'm not saying that you should.)


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Hmm, but why wouldn't it be about romantic relationships? Sx is about intimacy, one-to-one, which most obviously would occur in the context of romantic relationships. I think you're right that someone can be asexual and sx-first, but is this a normal expression of the instinct? Though, I obviously don't mean asexual people are not normal, but it doesn't seem like the "norm", when there are plenty of sx-firsts who wouldn't be asexual.
> 
> This person strikes me as a 4 sx-last, you can definitely see her Social focus here, unless I misunderstood what you were looking for...:blushed:
> 
> 
> * *


Oh darn, I phrased it stupidly and meant the opposite
(My image of an asexual sx-first is maybe some sort of mad scientist/Sherlock Holmes figure?)










Not that BBC Sherlock is sx-first (though it makes most sense I guess, of the three?) or asexual, just like legitimately being _married_ to your work, chasing fixes, that kind of thing, but different from just being passionate about a hobby I think, because passion is just a part of life, I think it's the manner of the thing

(Didn't watch the full video but I think that typing makes sense (hope this doesn't come off insensitive but I'm a little angry someone can be that pretty and aromantic/asexual, horribly impractical distribution of the world's beauty), would even buy so/sx, she has that vibe



> Yeah, I agree. WTF is it? So many different definitions, but I think sx has to look for some form of intimacy, right, whether sexual in nature or not, in a closeness with the "other"?
> 
> :thinking: So something akin to desire? I can see that:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see Interpol as 4w5 sp/sx, but this song is sx, or about sx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be my desire
> I'm a frustrated man
> Summon us for peace
> We do what we can
> Feel my desire
> Favor the bold
> Some of us fall to the earth
> These others roam
> Besieged by desire
> 
> Come on baby you played me out
> You play me out
> That looked like your chance to me
> But you play me out
> So now I gave you up
> It's time for a change of heart
> 
> See my desire
> No solemn moods
> All of us are teammates
> We stick to the rules
> It's a real life desire
> 
> Come on baby
> Play me out
> You lay me out
> That looked like your chance to me
> You play me out
> So now I gave you up
> It's time for a change of heart
> 
> I've been there
> I've been here
> Erased
> 
> Be my desire
> I'm a frustrated man
> Some of us fall to the earth
> These others ran
> They flee my desire
> 
> Come on baby
> You played me out
> You lay me out
> So it's time for a change of heart
> You played me out
> So I have gave you up
> You won't find no scars on me
> 
> I've been there
> I've been here
> Erased
> 
> I've been there
> I've been near
> Erased


Oh, this song is a good example

I'm not sure in general, I keep thinking about part of a podcast I overheard the other day about dogs, that when they get really excited about something (like someone coming to the door) they aren't able to hear commands, trying to connect the instincts with things animals do (obviously animals have sex but I think it's similar) like spness in animals is obvious, social is pretty evident too, but I keep thinking about sx with the dogs running to the door and their brains shutting off or whatever, that latching energy 

Not relevant but I keep trying to make that thought into something and it wasn't happening but here was fair opportunity to bring it up

Really exhausted, sorry if I'm phrasing things in stupid ways and not addressing the points properly 

(will thoroughly digest and respond to Dostoevsky post tomorrow, looking forward to it)

edit:



ElectricSlime said:


> Edit: Btw, was the bolded meant for me ?


No, sorry, the novel  (not ignoring your post, just have to get up early tomorrow)



Immolate said:


> (I'm not saying that you should.)


Ok
done responding to whatever this conversation is, it's very confusing


----------



## Nile

Nissa Nissa said:


> Why sx/*sp*?


Socializing is a pain for me; A lot of people say we should keep in touch with friends and people around you so when you’re in trouble you’ll have a friend in need , and when you get older when you don’t have a family, you won’t be lonely. When I was in secondary school, one of my greatest wish is to be disconnected to the world; I remember the feeling of being so so sick of people who I am in touch with, the ones who never understand. So it would be a lot better if I vanish from this real world and just live in the world of my dreams. Still I want to share my dreams with a special someone. 

Later in life I’m understanding the shape of my mind. I build a thick wall against people= , decorating the wall with something that will made them think I’m opening up to them but feel like I’m a robot with out a heart. While only revealing what’s undereneath the wall , my heart , to the special ones , letting it all for them to know and understand.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> Ooh good idea
> I agree with the ones I've read, hurrah for Proust being included :lovekitty: and I agree))


Yeah, Naranjo uses Proust as the example of Social 4 too.



> right now I can think of:
> 
> sx/sp: Thérèse Raquin (maybe too much a good example to be a good example)
> I want to put Crime and Punishment sx/sp too but it could be sp/sx? Any opinions?
> 
> sp/sx: Jane Eyre
> Moby Dick?
> 
> so/sp: Vanity Fair (the novel, not the magazine )
> The Old Curiosity Shop (or any Dickens novel really imo)
> 
> sp/so: Tess of the d'Urbervilles (or any Hardy)
> Middlemarch (or any George Elliot...)
> 
> sx/so: Madame Bovary iirc
> 
> Will try to think of more :/
> 
> Agree with the ones I know except I'd probably lean so/sp on Les Mis? I might be confusing it with the musical though, been a long time since I read the book, I remember hundreds of pages about sewers which is a bit sp-ish? But idk
> 
> The Hunchback of Notre Dame perhaps sx/so but I'm not feeling really confident on it


Thanks! I can't really comment on any of these, as I seemed to have passed over Victorian era literature, but they all seem right to me from my vague impression of them all. I probably should've made a separate thread for this. I thought maybe it would be helpful for understanding instincts, and since we were all talking about it.  Should I make another thread for it, like Enneagram and literature? roud: 



> Isn't his Uebermensch thing like a 5 (trying in a horrible way) to integrate to 8?


It makes sense since Dostoyevsky was critiquing it from Nietzsche, a 5, but I also see the Ubermensch as Nietzsche's way of integrating to his inferior Se too? Though, I don't know if Nietzsche was a 5, as he was pretty 4-ish from my reading of his bio. He's definitely sitting right in the 4w5/5w4 range. Nietzsche, not Raskolnikov. I don't know about Raskolnikov, but Dostoevsky's Underground Man is like unhealthy 4w5 writ large! 



ElectricSlime said:


> Now on to Raskolnikov. There's a bit of what I mentioned up there, but fundamentally it's a way to rationalize and cope with reality being such a shit hole, despite the so called touch of God in creating it. That's the overarching theme, one that comes back and gets further expanded in The Brothers K. In Raskolnikov himself, it mostly manifests as a rebellion against his complying tendencies and impulses, impulses that very much show up despite how much he tries to shove them away. That's the split personality of Rodion, who seems to vacillate from deeply human and noble fellow to cold, prideful and self centered intellectual douchebag. While Raskolnikov experiences frequent doubts, they aren't particularly related to not feeling knowledgeable and competent enough in dealing with the outside world, it turns inwards in the doubting of his impulse, the constant thinking that gets muddled and unproductive while he strolls through town, he can't make sense of anything inwards because his thinking gets confused with his doubts and feelings and he lacks any kind of solid gut instinct to anchors his mind to. Likewise, he seeks external confirmation for his theory and impulses to spring him into action, as evidenced by his subsequent projection to overhearing students bitching about the pawnbroker. He also manifests the typical 6 retardation in how he either thinks too much and doesn't act enough or acts too impulsively without thinking enough, sometimes in the span of a few minutes. Guy is a bundle of contradictions yo. There's a clear lack of detachment in the man that you don't see in his final draft, I'm of course talking of Ivan, who is the 5 in D's works imo, with a 1ish streak I could also argue.


It's been a while since I've read C&P, so I can't really remember Raskolnikov, but wasn't it that he was killing the pawnbroker/old lady (Are they the same?) because it was for the good of mankind, like that was his justification for it? She serves no purpose to society, so I will kill her. To me, that seems like Social is there in some way, but a perversion of it, like how Hitler I saw Nissa mention earlier, wouldn't be Social-last. I almost could see that as 1-ish too, like I was thinking the killer in the Saw movies may be a 1, because he's killing people for being unethical according to his moral standards. They're in the same vein in that way, and from what I remember, it was more guilt that was plaguing Raskolnikov after the murders (Well, of course it would be), rather than doubt, but I think he's probably a 146 tritype, as I think Dostoevsky was, so that may be why he seems that way to me, and Dostoevsky wasn't Social last either from what I know about him. 



> Ivan is passive and blinds himself to some of his desires (like his feelings to Dimitri's wife). He also doesn't talk much with people and never lets himself get dragged through bullshit like Dimitri's and Alyosha's girlfriend dramas. He's cut off from people, an observer. He'd never put up with Marmeladov's endless ramblings at some bar and get dragged into getting involved with the family, nor interfere with Svidrigailov being insistent with a prostitute, and other instances of the sort. His protestation, as opposed to Raskolnikov, is a quiet one. His whole idea about moral relativism is entertained solely in the form of intellectual discourse but he feels no need to check it against the environment, to test its strength and validity. Ivan would never put the theory into action the way Raskolnikov did, which is why good old plot device Smerdyakov exists.


Yeah, Ivan was a 5. I could see Ivan as social-last though, in a way I don't see Raskolnikov being social-last. Ivan was more or less detached from social concerns, doing his own thing, saying how when he reaches a certain age he'll return the ticket (?). Dmitri was probably 7w8 sx/so, and Alyosha seemed 9w1 sx-last. Did Alyosha have a girlfriend? I thought half of the novel he was in a monastery haha.




> Now it's true that the circumstances are kinda favoring Raskolnikov's springing into action as opposed to Ivan, since he's poor and nearly starving, and his sister plans to marry some shallow arrogant doofus. But I think the temperaments are different enough to point to *Raskolnikov being much more compelled towards people as a whole and being a more involved* and reactive person in general. I wouldn't describe Raskolnikov as an "Observer", even though he's definitely introverted. But Ivan ? Sure.


Yeah, wouldn't that speak to Social being there?



Nissa Nissa said:


> Oh darn, I phrased it stupidly and meant the opposite
> (My image of an asexual sx-first is maybe some sort of mad scientist/Sherlock Holmes figure?)


Ok, I kind of thought that's what you meant, so I didn't have to bring up Simply Kenna then haha. :bored: Yeah, but that expression I could see a sp-dom saying, though, like it's just an expression ("I'm married to my work"), so it's like the same as someone saying after an intense workout, "That was better than sex", or "This (insert food) is better than sex." I swear I've heard people say that before haha, and I wouldn't think they are sx-first, you know? I have no idea who these people are below, but this came up on a Google search of "Better than sex", and is what I'm talking about, like I don't know if a sx-first would say this since it's still very sp-focused...

* *














































> Not that BBC Sherlock is sx-first (though it makes most sense I guess, of the three?) or asexual, just like legitimately being _married_ to your work, chasing fixes, that kind of thing, but different from just being passionate about a hobby I think, because passion is just a part of life, I think it's the manner of the thing


Yeah, I don't know since I haven't seen Sherlock, but a sx-first 5 (Is he asexual? I mean, by virtue of being locked up he has to be) I think of is Hannibal Lecter, and this seems more sx to me (with some Social, "People will say...") than the Sherlock quote, and with the way he attaches to Clarice:










:shocked:



> (Didn't watch the full video but I think that typing makes sense (hope this doesn't come off insensitive but I'm a little angry someone can be that pretty and aromantic/asexual, horribly impractical distribution of the world's beauty), would even buy so/sx, she has that vibe


Haha, we can forget about Simply Kenna. :laughing:



> Oh, this song is a good example
> 
> I'm not sure in general, I keep thinking about part of a podcast I overheard the other day about dogs, that when they get really excited about something (like someone coming to the door) they aren't able to hear commands, trying to connect the instincts with things animals do (obviously animals have sex but I think it's similar) like spness in animals is obvious, social is pretty evident too, but I keep thinking about sx with the dogs running to the door and their brains shutting off or whatever, that latching energy


Haha, yes, I understand what you mean with the latching energy, so there's an element of attraction to sx, but then cats will never give me the time of day, and I don't think they're all sx-last. :tongue: Perhaps they're even more sx because of how selective they are, with who they will warm up to. They're certainly Social-last animals. Dogs are mostly Social-instinct, I think. I think the obvious example of sx in animals is mating rituals, not necessarily the sex.






Oh, I remembered this now too hahaha! When a sx-first meets a sx-last.


----------



## Immolate

@Nissa Nissa It was a request, as in, not a demand, but rather than engage me in a more meaningful way, you kept sidestepping, which is fine, but it was disappointing because I had a genuine interest in what you possibly had to say, and I also prefer when people are more genuine or upfront about their unwillingness to pursue a point. I didn't much care for what seemed like a dismissive attitude either  I'm not out to force posts out of you. I don't feel that sense of entitlement. That should hopefully clear things up for you. Respond if you like, but I'd prefer that you didn't.

That aside, I found Elementary's Sherlock more compelling in his humanity.

These expressions are relatable to me given his impenetrable nature and the fact he finds it so difficult to be truly stimulated and fulfilled by the people around him. It's why it can be so consuming when you finally find that one person (or thing) that manages to captivate you.











I see an argument for sx-last although the overall weight and presentation of him can come across so-last (or rather the idea of so-last).


----------



## ElectricSlime

@mistakenforstranger

-Dostoevsky didn’t criticize Nietzsche’s ubermensch, since Nietzsche’s writings hadn’t gained any semblance of notoriety at the time. Fyodor had no idea who he was. I read he was mostly criticizing an Hegelian kind of overman. Nietzsche did read Dostoevsky though; but had already written his last work by then. I really wish they had met, I wonder if D could have “saved” N, considering how he fits into one of his most prominent archetypes.

And yeah Nietzsche had a total hard on for Se. And I agree with the Underground Man being a 4, Alyosha a 9 and Dimitri a 7 but w6. Dad Karamazov was a 7w8. I think Alyosha’s crush was named Lise ? She “betrayed” his feelings by confessing to Ivan though (how did that nerd get so popular ^^’) 

-Raskolnikov’s “greater good” thing was mostly an afterthought to disguise the “selfishness” (mostly loyalty towards his family, and other tender feelings he wants to reject) behind his actions from his conscience. Typical superego mechanism. Nobody bought that shit, including Sonya, Porfiry and Rodion himself towards the end. It was also a struggling effort to keep his philosophy clean in the face of a piece of trash like Svidrigailov who exemplified everything wrong with the ubermensch theory. I’m positive that Raskolnikov is So last, and I actually think Ivan is Sp/So. The “compelled towards people” part was more about the attachment triad, and how no happy 6 can be disengaged from everyone.


----------



## Dangerose

But I don't think feeling invigorated is the core of sx. that's just...a good feeling imo, can see it being equally sp (vigor, right?)

don't think basic human emotions should necessarily fall into the reign of one instinct

wanting to feel alive is part of being alive, and I think a lot of aspects can affect it, if you're not living well you're less likely to feel alive in the first place which could cause a focus on it

edit: I love this song, think the singer is sx-last 9 or 4 and it strikes me as a very sx-last song






_All I need is to remember how it is to feel alive_


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> But I don't think feeling invigorated is the core of sx. that's just...a good feeling imo, can see it being equally sp (vigor, right?)
> 
> don't think basic human emotions should necessarily fall into the reign of one instinct
> 
> wanting to feel alive is part of being alive, and I think a lot of aspects can affect it, if you're not living well you're less likely to feel alive in the first place which could cause a focus on it
> 
> edit: I love this song, think the singer is sx-last 9 or 4 and it strikes me as a very sx-last song
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _All I need is to remember how it is to feel alive_


What do you think the core of SX is?


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> What do you think the core of SX is?


Sex

(it's not just called that because it starts with s)

Did you see my more recent long post? Think I talked about it there, but I don't have time to elaborate now, have to go walk before it's too late

edit: that sounded unintentionally ominous, just meant before it's too late to walk haha


----------



## Animal

@*ElectricSlime*
Although I don't agree with your ideas on what Sx means, I do sense you are Sx dom from your posts. You have an intense, penetrating energy that bores right into the heart of people, and a flirtatious manner to boot. You put your 'scent' out there, with your unique "straight to it" style - 6 flavor, calling out the bullshit 'out there' while also spilling out your own insides. 

Many Sx doms do this - vulnerability is attractive and creates lure, and Sx doms turn themselves on by focusing on these 'compelling, dangerous' depths: this is where the "juice" is. Even the sexual 8 will have spillage going on because it serves to magnetize others to your depths, to 'get straight to the juice.' Sx is about dissolving boundaries in order to infiltrate and be infiltrated entirely by the other, and displaying your "innermost something" is a strong device toward this end. There's an 'attracting vs repelling' aspect to Sx - by showing the world your 'juice' to attract some people strongly, you also repel those who aren't into that particular 'scent.' This makes you more magnetic to your targets and clears the rest out of the way, lowering your chances of either being rejected when you reveal yourself later, being settled for, OR blending in with the many so that you could be replaced.

Sx is quite simple: sexual instinct.
All instincts are about relationships. I know Sp/So's and So/Sp's who bend over backwards to please their partners, giving up many other things in their life; also, Sx dom musicians or artists who avoid relationships and crave to be more of an attractive sexual icon.

Instinct is not about intimacy. It's as simple as: instinct. One manifestation of Sx is an otherwise pointless display of your attractive or differentiated qualities for the purpose of attracting a mate. Think of a male bird flaring its colorful wings or singing to lure a female. There are also fish who create magnificent displays in the sand to attract females from afar. In humans, intelligence is an attractive quality (with good reason, as it implies good genes), and Sx doms who have this going for them will flaunt this as well, often channeling it into something 'arousing' and 'compelling' - whether that be the arts, mastery, or specialization - something that displays virtuosity and marks their 'personal flavor.' 

Sx is an instinct to attract or to be attracted; the 'arousal' instinct. The magnetic pull toward the thing that turns you on, even at the risk of coming apart at the seams and losing your constitution. There's a sense of 'losing yourself.' In sex, you can't remain in tact. You share fluids, you come apart, you blend together as one. It's transformative, hence the French description of orgasm: 'la petite mort.' Little death. Orgasm is a little death, spilling your seed, clearing the path for regeneration. 

But remember that after you orgasm, you need to separate and regenerate. Energy as intense as Sx cannot be 'on' all the time. This is one of many reasons why Sx dom 'intimacy' is a misnomer: there's an energetic cycle, on and off, based on the flow of attraction and chemistry, which Sx doms naturally tap into... leading to the conflicting, on and off nature often described in the fixated Sx dom.

Sp doms and Soc doms can be equally obsessive about their one partner, their romantic interests, their crush... but the underlying instinct is different. Soc doms tend toward togetherness, codependency, being involved with each other emotionally... if any instinct is that of 'overdoing intimacy' it's Social, not Sx. However, I prefer not to mix up intimacy - which is a quality of heart and humanity- with instinct.

I enjoy your posts very much and I'm impressed to see such tremendous insight from someone who seemed to come out of nowhere. Have you studied typology for a while?


----------



## Animal

The attempt to water down the Sexual Instinct and make it about "Intimacy," "Intensity" or "Invigoration" is no surprise. This stems from top enneagram writers who are likely Sx last, and cannot process what it truly means. Thus they latch on to the idea of 'intimacy' in order to water down that this is an animal instinct.

All throughout history, Sx has been watered down. Jesus's mother was a virgin, the witches were burned etc. Sx is threatening to the integrity of society, as it is unpredictable like a wildfire that looks amazing from afar, but could burn your house down. It's compelling, erratic, and runs on desire and arousal rather than preservation or social concern, both of which lead to a society that retains integrity, but runs the risk of stagnation.

I would advise being skeptical of any description that waters down the meaning of sex. It is true that humans project all kinds of fantasies onto instinctual base drives... such as associating attraction with some spiritual soulmate business, only to realize as you lie next to this person after sex that you just wanted to nail them, or you still need something more. We do project fantasies onto our defense patterns and instincts that our ego becomes identified with... in fact, many people (of all instincts) even make it into a spiritual quest of sorts. Sp - the ultimate survivalist, living off the land. The sports star, rising above all physical challenges. The health obsessed spiritualist, thinking & eating away their illnesses through healthy lifestyle. Soc- the cultural warrior. The great thinker, the rescuer, the ultimate idealist, dreaming of a better world. The tribalist, the "we can accomplish great things if we all work together"ist. The inspired politician, the "let's go back to our cultural roots"ist. Sx - the siren, the seducer, the vampire feeding on your soul, the artist mirroring your deepest desire, the penetrator of walls, the phoenix burning down your boundaries and awakening you anew, the dedication to all things that grab you by the loins, the 'I followed my passion even if it killed me'ist, the "soulmate" seeker, over and over.

Yes, we blow these things up. We ascribe spiritual purpose to them, as well as carnal fulfillment. But if we are being real, at the bottom there lies an instinct to survive, to mate, and to socialize. Which is driving you at the most base level, and which brings you spiritual fulfillment at best?


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> Sex
> 
> (it's not just called that because it starts with s)
> 
> Did you see my more recent long post? Think I talked about it there, but I don't have time to elaborate now, have to go walk before it's too late
> 
> edit: that sounded unintentionally ominous, just meant before it's too late to walk haha


Ah, in that case, I doubt we're going to agree, but I'm willing to continue discussion. I'm surprised some people do view it as purely sexual.



Animal said:


> The attempt to water down the Sexual Instinct and make it about "Intimacy," "Intensity" or "Invigoration" is no surprise. This stems from top enneagram writers who are likely Sx last, and cannot process what it truly means. Thus they latch on to the idea of 'intimacy' in order to water down that this is an animal instinct.


This is implying your view on the subject holds more water than people who have written on it. Aside from that, does this mean you believe asexual people can't be SX-first?


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## Animal

owlet said:


> Ah, in that case, I doubt we're going to agree, but I'm willing to continue discussion. I'm surprised some people do view it as purely sexual.


I did not say that I view it as purely sexual. My second post detailed the many ways that people can spiritualize their instincts and even get spiritual fulfillment from them. My first post outlined many conversational and other devices which demonstrate an _underlying sexual drive_. This is far from your interpretation of "purely sexual." Humans are complex; it is never pure. It's about the root cause underlying layers of external behaviors, identifications and beliefs.

Edit: I just realized this was a reply to @*Nissa Nissa*; nevertheless this is my take on it, so I'll leave it in.



> This is implying your view on the subject holds more water than people who have written on it.


This is not just 'my own view.' Psychologists have expounded on this topic at length, including the assertion that Sexuality has been watered down and persecuted by various cultures for ages.

But what's important isn't who wrote on the topic and how many credentials they have. What's important is, does it make sense? And it doesn't make sense that 1/3 of the world (sx lasts) avoid intimacy. That simply does not add up to realistic experience. What makes more sense is that something called "instincts" refers to a drive we share with animals (instincts!!), and that we examine the root causes _underlying our own self-deception, identification and behavior_, which is what enneagram is about.

The title "Sexual" "Instinct" entails two things: Sexual. Instinct. Thus a discussion about how sexuality and instinct underlie certain patterns of human workings is the only logical way to approach exploring its meaning.

Would you assert that Social instinct isn't about social, and Self-Pres instinct isn't about Self-preservation? If so, what is the point of identifying instinctual stacks at all? What do they mean to you? 



> Aside from that, does this mean you believe asexual people can't be SX-first?


No. 

First of all, "asexuality" is too broad and vague a term, thus it is impossible to make a broad generalization about asexuals, and instinctual stacks would have to be examined within each person on an individual basis. 

Second of all, instinct stacks are not about sexual orientation or non-orientation - they are about patterns underlying the human psyche. Asexual people are still human, so they will have Sx instinct somewhere. We all have Soc, Sx, and Sp instinct somewhere in our stack. So the discussion instead would have to pertain to _how _the Sx instinct manifests in this person, rather than _whether_ it does.


----------



## Animal

owlet said:


> This is implying your view on the subject holds more water than people who have written on it. Aside from that, does this mean you believe asexual people can't be SX-first?


I also want to point out that this reiteration of my points is a conversational ploy designed to make me look bad. I happen to have watched a video about this yesterday...


* *












....which demonstrated a situation in which someone continuously reworded their debate partner's points by creating a paired-down, cartoon version (known as a strawman) and attacking that. Writing that I'm implying something other than what I said, as though it is fact - and displaying your idea of what I was "implying" rather than responding to what I actually said, is strawmanning and is designed to make me look stupid rather than to facilitate intellectual discussion and dig to the truth.


----------



## Dangerose

@Animal (just generally want to post this and I'm responding to your post but don't feel obliged to respond or anything) I don't agree with you on a level because I think instinct is something we should, in some sense, overcome, I see Enneagram as about our chains and instinct is no exception - so I disagree with 'Mary was a virgin' as a condemnation of sx particularly (and I don't understand why witches are sx lol), most holy figures are set apart by their freedom from instinct, like I'd use Buddha as a model of 'freedom from self-preservation', in general, we are not free if we are servants to our animal instincts, whichever of the three varieties they are - not that the instincts are bad but that we should be free of them. 

So in terms of growth I don't think embracing the instinct wholeheartedly is the path, but liberating ourselves from it as well as using it, our natural tendency, and transforming it towards something more powerful and meaningful. Such as Buddha, liberating himself from the chains of flesh, hunger, desire, want, and then bringing forward a spiritual self-preservation, enlightenment and all that jazz. So I think a sp-first should learn not to be at the mercy of their immediate physical urges, a sx-first should learn not to put the world on their desire, their lust to attract, a so-first should learn to be ambivalent to their connections, associated groups and status, as well as turning their instincts to good - to be stupid and obvious and inaccurate a sp-first could feed the hungry and protect the weak, sx-first could inspire people to passion, so-first could advocate for groups, whatever, general concept is what I mean, I think people should not be slaves to their instincts but masters of them, and use that mastery to use them for good and (excuse my religiosity here) what they were intended for

Though I also think it's important to cultivate the neglected instinct, not in the sense of making a crutch of it (which I think can happen, like a weird last-ditch crutch) but bringing it out of its hiding-place and nourishing it, it's good for so-lasts not to be a closed circuit, sx-lasts to pull forth the magnetic parts of their soul, sp-lasts to appreciate the simple things 

__________

But I agree with your general description

Even if whenever you mention the thing about bodily fluids it seems very strange to me and I think of Cold War people afraid of people stealing their precious bodily fluids :laughing:










Anyways I know you don't agree with this but just eh


----------



## Animal

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Animal* (just generally want to post this and I'm responding to your post but don't feel obliged to respond or anything) I don't agree with you on a level because I think instinct is something we should, in some sense, overcome, I see Enneagram as about our chains and instinct is no exception - so I disagree with 'Mary was a virgin' as a condemnation of sx particularly (and I don't understand why witches are sx lol), most holy figures are set apart by their freedom from instinct, like I'd use Buddha as a model of 'freedom from self-preservation', in general, we are not free if we are servants to our animal instincts, whichever of the three varieties they are - not that the instincts are bad but that we should be free of them.
> 
> So in terms of growth I don't think embracing the instinct wholeheartedly is the path, but liberating ourselves from it as well as using it, our natural tendency, and transforming it towards something more powerful and meaningful. Such as Buddha, liberating himself from the chains of flesh, hunger, desire, want, and then bringing forward a spiritual self-preservation, enlightenment and all that jazz. So I think a sp-first should learn not to be at the mercy of their immediate physical urges, a sx-first should learn not to put the world on their desire, their lust to attract, a so-first should learn to be ambivalent to their connections, associated groups and status, as well as turning their instincts to good - to be stupid and obvious and inaccurate a sp-first could feed the hungry and protect the weak, sx-first could inspire people to passion, so-first could advocate for groups, whatever, general concept is what I mean, I think people should not be slaves to their instincts but masters of them, and use that mastery to use them for good and (excuse my religiosity here) what they were intended for
> 
> Though I also think it's important to cultivate the neglected instinct, not in the sense of making a crutch of it (which I think can happen, like a weird last-ditch crutch) but bringing it out of its hiding-place and nourishing it, it's good for so-lasts not to be a closed circuit, sx-lasts to pull forth the magnetic parts of their soul, sp-lasts to appreciate the simple things
> 
> __________
> 
> But I agree with your general description
> 
> Even if whenever you mention the thing about bodily fluids it seems very strange to me and I think of Cold War people afraid of people stealing their precious bodily fluids :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways I know you don't agree with this but just eh


I agree with you wholeheartedly about overcoming and being more than our instincts. The idea is to identify the crux of the beast so that we understand the beast, can look it in the eye, can make friends with it and thus can release ourselves from fear of it, and also from being hunted down by it.

This is exactly the point of the identification process - I should have included that in my explanation, and I am glad you did. 

As for witches and Mary, this is a discussion I would absolutely love to have. I am running a high fever, however, and I fear that my attention to this topic won't be deep enough for what it deserves, so I will come back to it.


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## ElectricSlime

The biggest headache of my life, a shit work day, two exams to study for tomorrow and more replies than I would've ever expected. I'm pretty fucked. I'm sorry if I end up not responding tonight, I guess it'll depend on how much I can accomplish within 3-4 hours and whether or not my head explodes.


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## Dangerose

@Animal good, glad you agree, I thought our thoughts were twisting around a similar concept)

And, I'll mentally prepare to hold my own against your (Te?) Hope you feel better soon!


----------



## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> The biggest headache of my life, a shit work day, two exams to study for tomorrow and more replies than I would've ever expected. I'm pretty fucked. I'm sorry if I end up not responding tonight, I guess it'll depend on how much I can accomplish within 3-4 hours and whether or not my head explodes.


No rush! I usually don't check this thing very often, but I was posting up a storm since I'm sick myself. Feel better 



Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Animal* good, glad you agree, I thought our thoughts were twisting around a similar concept)
> 
> And, I'll mentally prepare to hold my own against your (Te?) Hope you feel better soon!




Thank you! 
Haha, I laughed at holding up against my Te. Hopefully it won't be too much 'against' stuff and will be more about delineating concepts over time, but we'll see. I always love a good strong debate that doesn't get personal. :kitteh:


----------



## owlet

Animal said:


> I also want to point out that this reiteration of my points is a conversational ploy designed to make me look bad. I happen to have watched a video about this yesterday...
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which demonstrated a situation in which someone continuously reworded their debate partner's points by creating a paired-down, cartoon version (known as a strawman) and attacking that. Writing that I'm implying something other than what I said, as though it is fact - and displaying your idea of what I was "implying" rather than responding to what I actually said, is strawmanning and is designed to make me look stupid rather than to facilitate intellectual discussion and dig to the truth.


Haven't got time or patience to respond much currently (my laptop battery seems to be dead), but the fact you wrote this does make it sound like you're putting your understanding above the sources I provided (which stated that the SX instinct is not purely sexual intimacy):


> All throughout history, Sx has been watered down. Jesus's mother was a virgin, the witches were burned etc.





> I would advise being skeptical of any description that waters down the meaning of sex.


I have no interest in making anyone look bad. That's a complete waste of my time.


----------



## Animal

owlet said:


> the fact you wrote this does make it sound like you're putting your understanding above the sources I provided (which stated that the SX instinct is not purely sexual intimacy):


First of all, this:


> the fact you wrote this does make it sound like you're....


This is the exact strawmanning I'm talking about. Instead of responding to my point itself, which was completely unrelated to "your" sources, you tell me what my posts "sound like." How about responding to what I actually wrote instead of what they "sound like?"

I asked you whether Soc instinct is related to Soc and whether Sp instinct is related to Self preservation, in your view. And if not, what is the point of instincts, in your view? I asked you this in order to open up a discussion on the topic, rather than a source war or continuing to endure accusations about what my posts "sound like I'm doing." Still, you chose to ignore the content of the debate and reiterate what it sounds like I'm implying. I find that curious.

Now, about this:


> (which stated that the SX instinct is not purely sexual intimacy)


I also stated that the Sx instinct was not purely about sexual intimacy, but I elaborated on that, saying it is about the behavior and state of mind that results from the root cause of the existence and prioritization of the Sexual Instinct which is, just as it looks like, an instinct rooted in Sex (the need to mate). I also elaborated by saying we extrapolate additional meaning there - so again, you are reiterating my point rather than reading it. I never said it was "purely" anything.. I was talking about underlying roots.

Now:


> you're putting your understanding above the sources I provided


There are so many underlying problems with this statement, I don't know where to begin.

First, let me ask you this: are we here to exchange sources or are we here to exchange ideas? Is one's own understanding automatically inferior to sources that were published by someone else? Ought we not to read those sources with a bit of skepticism and discuss the underlying concepts as we understand them? 

All of these theories originated with humans just like you and me who came up with original ideas and built systems out of them. Then, authors interpreted those systems. Why not us, too?

Second: there are also sources to support my argument. Some people like to provide select sources - and I have done this myself on this forum, typing up many WHOLE THREADS filled with source material. I'm perfectly capable of referencing sources on this topic as well, but that would mean we have a source war - your source vs. mine. That has been done a thousand times on this forum, on this topic by itself, among many others. I don't see how it would be productive to get into a source war at this juncture, when this topic has already been debated ad nauseum.

Another option is that we can interpret the concepts, based on reason, experience, psychology (which is what enneagram is actually about), etc. That is what the enneagram writers do in order to create "original" content, after all. It's easy to find "sources" and reiterate their content, but - since the authors are not present to defend themselves and yet, we are present to defend our own points - it is more meaningful to discuss our own understanding and think for ourselves. 

So, which do you prefer? Source wars or deconstruction of concepts aimed at deeper understanding?


----------



## owlet

@Animal I have no interest in this kind of argument. I have no interest in making you 'look bad'. I was pointing out the fact you were appearing to completely ignore the sources I'd posted. You're wasting your time trying to engage me in this way, because it holds absolutely no value to me.


----------



## Animal

owlet said:


> @*Animal* I have no interest in this kind of argument. I have no interest in making you 'look bad'. I was pointing out the fact you were appearing to completely ignore the sources I'd posted. You're wasting your time trying to engage me in this way, because it holds absolutely no value to me.


You are reiterating, again, that I have "ignored" sources.
In fact, I have read mounds of enneagram books, including the roughly 20 that I own and have read cover to cover (in most cases more than once), I've interacted directly with major enneagram writers and teachers, I have attended lectures. I have also studied psychology informally for my whole life since my parents are psychiatrists who discuss their profession with me, I took an interest in Jung books, Freud and other thinkers lying around the house at a young age, studied related topics in college (including comparative religion, anthropology, history and philosophy) and spent ample time for the past six years on several typology forums, including one that I run myself. 

My background in enneagram will continue to grow, but it is quite comprehensive. The sources you posted are not the beginning and end of my understanding, although none of that is unfamiliar to me. It has all contributed to a more holistic view of the real psychology behind enneagram and instincts, that I have been developing and which I continue to explore. My views were closely in line with the original thinkers, like Gurdjieff and Ichazo, even before I studied them... due to the depth of study I chose to partake in.

So it is meaningless to reiterate repeatedly that I ignored a few short quotes from you. I ignored them because I have already seen these stances written in many places and, for the reasons I took the time to lay out, I do not find them useful. As you can see, in my many years of in depth study and interaction with top writers, I have taken this angle into account and thoroughly considered its implications.


----------



## owlet

@Animal I'm not going to get into this with you. I already said I have no interest in it. You could be a scholar on enneagram for all I care - I would still want to look at all the sources rather than take one person's understanding of it. Can we leave it at that and get back to interesting discussion?


----------



## Animal

owlet said:


> @*Animal* I'm not going to get into this with you. I already said I have no interest in it. You could be a scholar on enneagram for all I care - I would still want to look at all the sources rather than take one person's understanding of it. Can we leave it at that and get back to interesting discussion?


I have asked you repeatedly your opinion on the more 'interesting' aspects of this - such as what the instincts actually mean to you, and what the point of them is. Yet you insist that doesn't matter to you and you don't want to engage. So what is "interesting" to you? Is it interesting to ignore the discussion of the meaning of instincts in favor of repeating the same sentences about how you don't care about this (and yet you keep responding), it means nothing to you (and yet you feel a need to comment), and the sources you posted were ignored? You said you'd rather take many views into account, rather than one: so why not do that, instead of sticking only to the few sources you posted and chiding me for having a different view? It doesn't sound like you're taking many views into account; you're declaring that your sources need to be attended to.


----------



## owlet

Animal said:


> I have asked you repeatedly your opinion on the more 'interesting' aspects of this - such as what the instincts actually mean to you, and what the point of them is. Yet you insist that doesn't matter to you and you don't want to engage. So what is "interesting" to you? Is it interesting to ignore the discussion of the meaning of instincts in favor of repeating the same sentences about how you don't care about this (and yet you keep responding), it means nothing to you (and yet you feel a need to comment), and the sources you posted were ignored? You said you'd rather take many views into account, rather than one: so why not do that, instead of sticking only to the few sources you posted and chiding me for having a different view? It doesn't sound like you're taking many views into account; you're declaring that your sources need to be attended to.


You were talking about strawmanning and making you look bad. I never chided you for having a different view, I pointed out you seemed to be ignoring what I'd posted and asked a question, to which (before the post edit) you simply replied 'no'. Your opinion of me is irrelevant to the discussion.
It was a good discussion while it lasted, but yeah, I'm out.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Currently wondering my stackings and if I'm a 3, 6 or maybe 7/8....


----------



## Ocean Helm

Tad Cooper said:


> I think @owlet had issues determining herself as a 4 over a 5 so she might be able to help?
> 
> I'd say looking at motivations etc should help (I'm actually stuck on my type too, but not 4/5)
> 
> As it's a big topic here at the moment, whatre your thoughts on instincts? (sp/so/sx)


Thought on the concept in general, or as it pertains to myself? I'm clearly sp above the other two to the point where it sort of overwhelms them. I joke about being sp/sp but it is sorta the truth. I get a high 6 score on the Similarminds tests but I think they ask about the same questions for sp and 6, so in some conceptions of Enneagram it can be difficult for me to tell apart sp (especially when it is combined with 5) and 6. "Never stop thinking" as a self-preservation strategy leads to a bunch of traits which can be seen as 6 traits (suspecting motivations for example).

I'll also just leave this here: my scores on the RHETI test which is the "official" one:









I wish there was a place in Enneagram theory for 4 that disintegrates to 5 rather than 2, because that concept would fit me pretty well, as I can relate to the 1 integration.


----------



## Dangerose

nep2une said:


> Hm. Not surprised an ENFP would like this. Seems like a very NF/xNFP thing to like. I somehow get what you mean by the sx-last impression... Can't quite describe how, but I do.
> 
> Also, if we're going to bring up music... (apologies in advance if my taste sucks)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really sure. Right now I have down so/sx as a placeholder.


Hm yeah, I forget about that  but she does strike me as an INFP, makes sense

(not sure 'taste sucking' is a thing, anyways I like this, has a cool vibe (does seem so/sx instincts wise, not sure about Enneagram, something 6ish/8ish in there?)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Coburn said:


> I prefer to go as male because it eliminates the teasing/flirty dynamic that sometimes crops up between male and female posters. I don't like undertones of attraction in my conversations, and being male eliminates that for me.


You know, you just gave me the idea to change my gender to female, put on a Rita Hayworth pic and see how many I can hook lol.

And yeah it's cool, I'll keep it in mind!



> You said you are ambitious; what are your ambitions focused on? Relationships? Career? Other areas of life? Which area of your life directs most of your attention/focus/planning?


Honestly I just really don't know at this point. I've never been that attached to money but I did consider myself ambitious in terms of career plans. I was considering law at the beginning of last term but ended up changing my mind. I currently work part time at an account firm, and the paperwork is killing me. It sucks. It sucks. It sucks. And it's not like the human contact makes up for it either, no offense to my lady supervisors. I know lawyer is a job that requires a lot of this office bullshit, and while I also know that there comes a point where you have the means to hire minions to that stuff in your stead, you can't exactly escape it either. As such, I got disinterested. Like I mentioned above, historian has always been appealing but simply doesn't cut it on the job market. I'm thinking of maybe becoming a teacher for history/literature. Eh.

Entrepreneur would be great, except that the fact that I'm a jack-of-all trades with no real specialty to offer on the market makes it difficult. Several years ago I would've seen myself opening up this big newspaper company that would trump all of the others and offer real, interesting and reliable information and sources. It's really not a feasible project considering my means and the context: with several publishers having been comfortably installed for decades here. So yeah, just very jaded with the "real world" so far. In fact, I'd almost say I couldn't care less about achieving right now.



> So relationships for the sake of usefulness isn't a primary factor in forming or ending relationships for you (at least on a primary level). Do so types approach relationships from a usefulness factor first?


Nope, not at all. Someone would have to be very very very useful for me to go against my apathy and be extensively involved with him/her.

So/Sx probably much less, but So/Sp more likely yes ? So/Sp is usually associated to The Politician, Hillary Clinton being one of the most brought up examples. Her husband Bill is probably So/Sx, to serve as contrast. 



> Just watched a couple clips. I'm definitely not expansive in any similar fashion under stress. When I'm irritated or angry about a situation, I am vocal and take charge. However, under extreme stress I become subdued and minimal in expressions, reactions, responses. Think of it like running a computer in safe mode: there is no excess. I say less, I move less, I speak plainly. Whatever goal I have (whatever's causing the stress) becomes my only focus. Nothing else matters (this includes all sp things like eating, hygiene, sleep, comfort, etc.).


Yeah see, you're definitely assertive but you don't come across as expansive and aggressive to me. 



> What are you looking for in the reactions your create? Is it mostly a subconscious or conscious behavior?
> 
> Yes, competency is a main focus and anger-trigger for me. Would you be interested in talking through competency-assertive things with me to see if it offers any insight for myself?


Unconscious I guess..? Nowadays I can see it coming due to increased self awareness and have a bit more control over it, but as any defense mechanism it's something that runs deeper that I've come to lean on. Hence the part about liberating yourself from that. As for the behavior itself, I'd say it's a way to make some waves as to 1) intimidate people, 2) test them to weed out potential hiding threats and know who's with me and who's against me (the issue is that such behavior actually tends to alienate some people who really did stand with you and create more enemies. But there's security in it being the open and knowing what to expect after all) and 3) covering up shame and feelings of inadequacy by finding superiority over people and criticizing their character. If I can manage to intimidate people and make them buy my "strength", intellectual or simply in terms of assertive character, then I can convince myself that it really is true and that I am "safe". That is pretty much me at my worst. A close friend says I become a watered down version of a paranoid narcissist, and according to the description it seems to fit well  CP6 disintegrating at 3 for you I suppose. That's very much when I'm really pushed to the limit though, even regular "unhealthy" phases aren't that bad.

And sure, though I'm not sure if I have that much to teach on the subject... Ask questions and we'll make it work from there :wink:


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> Ah, I wanted to be a historian too when I was young (or archaeologist). It's interesting you being up the romanticising on historical periods - do you tend to view history from a more distance perspective, like reading a story?


Oh definitely! History to me is an infinite wellspring of exploration and novel worlds. It allows for contact with different cultures regardless of time and location, is full of mysteries and epic events. By delving into the past and looking at what humans achieved and fucked up, we can discern universal truths and unique insights. The fact that it's full of grey zones also gives room to work around, question, discuss and interpret. Then there's also the part about being able to connect with individuals that you admire and vibe with, and to find some sort of comfort and fascination in seeing the world from their eyes. And lastly, if it's still not satisfying, you can always add and take off variables at will from major events, and speculate on what could've been :kitteh:



Nissa Nissa said:


> I actually heard someone argue 6 core for him and I didn't really understand that well but I thought it was an interesting notion
> And for the last part, maybe...I get confused, my understanding of 2 might be skewed from (mis?)typing as it? Would be open to comments...


Nah he's not a 6. Maybe it's just me relating to the jerk ass façade trope.

I usually see him typed at 7, and sometimes 3. So he'd be a 783 tritype Sx/So. The thing is he comes off as much more contained and low key than another 873 Sx/So : Oberyn (who is pretty much the epitome of Sx lol). They're also both Se leads. They seem too different for some reason...


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> I can understand making things into stories - I do the same thing, but with different subjects. I'm not sure I understand what the purpose is in being 'the best' still. As long as you can do something well enough, that seems fine to me. Maybe I lack ambition? I know I have very little competitive spirit and have never been good at taking PvP games very seriously.


what subjects? :kitteh: (don't think I asked enough questions today)
Well, again I think this being 'the best' thing has gotten blown out of proportion lol, don't remember where I mentioned it originally but I wouldn't say it's that big a deal for me

I'm not pragmatic, most things don't have a purpose for me, I'm a Ne-dom sp-last 2 or 7 :laughing: I'm not seriously competitive (I'm always baffled about how people get genuinely emotional about sports, always think they're feigning some level of caring), but I'm more competitive than I am ambitious, and more ambitious than I am practical, the concept of a task to be done is usually far away from my mind, so I'm not thinking about 'what is needed to do x' - my mind isn't intertwined with that concept, when I'm thinking of such things I am thinking of my own merit and the experience I can derive from something.

This is I think one of my more negative traits. I never learned to chase a goal. In school I didn't understand the purpose of grades and completing courses - naively, I thought I was there to learn :laughing: even when I understood that things depended on my performance in school, or even when I did understand it made more sense to focus on learning Old English when we were studying Beowulf, than to focus on...reading Beowulf and doing the stupid assignments, I always prioritized my goals, which are really just my passing interests, 

and I don't know how to explain how competition is fun for me, it just is


----------



## ElectricSlime

@BroNerd

Well I do hope you didn't only limit yourself to Chestnut's description  Regardless if you feel like you've found your type and neurosis, then I'm glad for you and wish you luck on your path to self improvement (though I wouldn't have to tell that to a Three lol).
@Paradigm

Oh because you know the impression I have of you ? :smug:

The thing is ILI is Se seeking, which means they look for and get turned on by Se in others.



> Extroverted sensing is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se. There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing (Si)-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world". Unlike Si, which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.


From what I do think I know of you, you'd be more likely to actually be opposed to this way of processing the world correct ?

As for the SP argument, while I do think any type can be any Variant, I think the variant will be colored by the type. A LIE who has Si-polr will very likely have his SP instinct manifest in compulsive acquisition of material wealth rather than in bathing in comfort. Reminder that LIE and ILI aren't really _that_ different either. 

Lastly do you relate to Gamma quadra the most ? I think Delta is a better fit based solely on "vibe", but feel free to send me flying on that one.

*Shrugs*
@Animal

Would you mind clarifying a few things ?

First how would you describe an unhealthy Sx dom ?

Second, how would you describe a Sexual 5 according to your views on the Sx instinct, as surely he would remain a reserved and distant person yes ?

And thanks for the compliments  I started reading up on Enneagram seriously in late 2016/early 2017 so it's been a bit over a year. I usually alternate with periods of deep involvement in the subject and periods away from it entirely. I feel that's the healthiest way to not get too consumed in it and start looking at people as types... I've always enjoyed your posts as well, especially your old ones on E6, so high five


----------



## Coburn

@ElectricSlime

Rita Hayworth? Are you trying to attract the Greatest Generation?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Coburn said:


> @ElectricSlime
> 
> Rita Hayworth? Are you trying to attract the Greatest Generation?


Can’t help it if I find myself attracted to various sex symbols from the 50s that are now a bunch of corpses 

I’ll take Grace Kelly and Rita over Kate Upton and Margot Robbie any day.

Edit: Anyway I wouldn’t have in mind to make them believe I’m Rita, but no one can fight off the vibe she gives off, even in a mere avatar


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Nah he's not a 6. Maybe it's just me relating to the jerk ass façade trope.
> 
> I usually see him typed at 7, and sometimes 3. So he'd be a 783 tritype Sx/So. The thing is he comes off as much more contained and low key than another 873 Sx/So : Oberyn (who is pretty much the epitome of Sx lol). They're also both Se leads. They seem too different for some reason...


I don't think so either probably, but he does have an interesting relationship with duty. But I wondered if there was a case I was missing via my bias 

Well I would still say he's a 2  I don't think _all_ of what I said was sx-dominant stuff, the...lovingness for example and the pride.

I would even think he was 9 fixed anyways, he has that whole 'taking your mind away' thing, he's a bit...complacent as well, don't have examples of complacency but there's something avoidant about him, I'd actually say 1 fix before 8 too 

And I guess I could see core 3...but I see his story as more about over-attachment and dependency than...(sorry, too exhausted to think of words) 3 things. 2ishly he spent his life defined by other people, mostly Cersei obviously but also his father...Tyrion knows he can count on Jaime to save him...the detail of Jaime coming out of the womb clasping Cersei's foot and then having his hand chopped off and learning to separate, to me is the most important thing about his character, and it really reminds me of 2 and its line to 4. 2 seems like a better fit. (Though 379 seems like a good tritype imo)

So I don't think he's another 873 sx/so at all, also don't think same tritype and instincts have to have the same energy. Even things affect it like...Dornish culture is very energetic and adventurous and sexual and warlike, Lannisters are a lot tamer and more calculated, do think those things make a difference in general presentation 

(sorry if these thoughts are disjointed, really tired and can't seem to get hold of proper trains of thought)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> Well, definitely agree about your house and career example
> But I was thinking about for example, to me that idea of a poet sitting on the side of a cliff (I don't mean the Byronic image guy like I think you used to have as an avatar and apparently I can't find info on it online but yeah it's a thing, the Cliffside Poet), to me that's a sx image, or an artist obsessed with his work, it's creation and fuel, the same things that sx is essentially projecting onto human relationships are possible to project onto art and music (I don't mean project in a bad self-deceptive way btw)
> 
> Pygmalion for instance I see as something of a sx archetype, maybe sx 3 specifically though
> 
> And I think it can apply to other things, even detective work, if the person views it in a 'sexual' way and it's done in a 'sexual' manner


Yeah, I know what you mean, like I think of Van Gogh as an example of that, and think he was 4w5 sp/sx, but I don't see why his passion for painting is related to sx. If anything, I think it would just be because he's 4, and that he really likes to paint. :Smilies1:

I'm not familiar with Pygmalion. 

Yeah, it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderer_above_the_Sea_of_Fog 

I didn't have it as an avatar, just featured in my collage, and yeah I see that as more of a social-last image.

Do you mean like this? Still think it's a 4 image of romanticism, rather than sx. I think sx and 4 can be confused a lot because of "passion".












> I'm trying to think of exceptions but I don't know any politicians :laughing:
> 
> (there's a fictional character politician from a costume drama that I just can't remember who seemed strongly sp/sx to me but it seems to NOT EXIST based on the stupid results on Google I'm getting, anyways if anyone happens to know he was named Fox or something and he was really sp/sx)
> 
> edit: found it, it was called Aristocrats but I can't find any clips but if anyone happens to remember it lol
> 
> Anyways I agree with the whole of your point but maybe not the particulars


I really can't think of social-last politician either, like I'm sure there has to be _one_ out there haha, but politicians would have to rely on Social a lot.


----------



## Dangerose

deleted thing about my type (just unsure about 2), should put something interesting here so the thread's not a weird wasteland

But I don't really have anything






Is Bon Iver 5?

(Answer or don't, been wondering for like two years now but I'm only trying to put something not nothing in this space)


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean, like I think of Van Gogh as an example of that, and think he was 4w5 sp/sx, but I don't see why his passion for painting is related to sx. If anything, I think it would just be because he's 4, and that he really likes to paint. :Smilies1:
> 
> I'm not familiar with Pygmalion.
> 
> Yeah, it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderer_above_the_Sea_of_Fog
> 
> I didn't have it as an avatar, just featured in my collage, and yeah I see that as more of a social-last image.
> 
> Do you mean like this? Still think it's a 4 image of romanticism, rather than sx. I think sx and 4 can be confused a lot because of "passion".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really can't think of social-last politician either, like I'm sure there has to be _one_ out there haha, but politicians would have to rely on Social a lot.


ear thing pretty sx though (don't know much about Van Gogh, just the cliffsnotes lol)

(My parents have a story about watching a documentary about him when I was a little kid and afterwards I said in a tone of great fascination like it was a great wonder to behold, 'It was _so_ boring, I didn't think anything was that boring!')

I'm not sure I have a particular painting in mind but yeah that concept in general

Pygmalion sculpted a statue, Galatea, that he fell in love with and then she turned into a human (My Fair Lady is based on that but Henry Higgins is sp-dom I wager)


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Wanderer above the Sea of Fog is way too popular an artwork. Even my school has it hung up in several hallways with some corny message like "you never truly stand alone". Urgh I feel violated. And now I need to change my phone wallpaper.
@mistakenforstranger

I wish I was better at prospecting art over the internet (especially from the Romantic era), but I just don't know where to start. Give me training wheels you guys


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> The attempt to water down the Sexual Instinct and make it about "Intimacy," "Intensity" or "Invigoration" is no surprise. This stems from top enneagram writers who are likely Sx last, and cannot process what it truly means. Thus they latch on to the idea of 'intimacy' in order to water down that this is an animal instinct.


Katherine Fauvre types as sx-dom, so would you say she's one of those sx-last authors watering down the sx-instinct? http://www.katherinefauvre.com/new-page-3/



> *The "sexual" Instinctual Subtypes are driven by the ongoing search for intimacy and one-to-one relationships.* The focus of attention is on "the beloved" and "our intimate world." The primary desire is for a mate, which is manifested by an imbalanced perceived need for wholeness, affinity, and closeness in a continual search for "the other half."
> 
> 
> *The concerns of the sexual Instinctual Subtypes involve issues of intimacy* *- for example, "to be intimate or not to be intimate" or "how to be intimate."* The survival strategy is abstinence or promiscuity. The common theme statements reflect an inclination to define oneself in terms of the mate and the relationship, such as "what am I?", with this Instinctual Subtype being defined by "how comfortably and successfully I experience my relationship" - i.e., issues dealing with "how am I perceived by my intimate partner?"
> 
> 
> The energy projected is described as "high energy" and is often experienced as "intense" and laser-like, appearing to be intently focused, and is usually playful and light, yet penetrating in nature. There is a sense of energy and vibration, the search for the mate, the need to display their strength and beauty, like the peacock showing its feathers or, in some manner, acting out the mating ritual or dance.
> 
> 
> The sexual Instinctual Subtypes will "sacrifice for the relationship" to insure connection. Rather than looking inward or to the group for security to "solve the problem," these types tend to "look to the mate," based upon a belief that "I cannot be whole unless I find my other half."


Sx is about intimacy. How is it not? It can be more than that, as you have elaborated on, but to say it has nothing to do with it seems inaccurate.

Also, when someone brings up a source, and you say they're trying to engaging in a "source war" with you is a pretty blatant example of a straw-man.



> All throughout history, Sx has been watered down. Jesus's mother was a virgin, the witches were burned etc. Sx is threatening to the integrity of society, as it is unpredictable like a wildfire that looks amazing from afar, but could burn your house down. It's compelling, erratic, and runs on desire and arousal rather than preservation or social concern, both of which lead to a society that retains integrity, but runs the risk of stagnation.


I don't see what is so "threatening" to society about sx, when you literally need sx to form a society through procreation. To me, it seems like you are describing more of a Type 1 view of sex here, in the sense of those people who repress their own/others sexual desires. I don't even think sx-last of other types would share those kinds of views. I think of something like the Victorian era would be a sx-last ethos, for example. And what about all those wild Roman orgies haha? So, I wouldn't say all throughout history. I think a lot of people's ideas have progressed on sex/sx today, but it really depends on your culture.

Also, by your formulation, then all revolutionaries and social activists who change society would have to be sx, if so and sp lead to stagnation? I agree sp may tends toward stability, but what about people like Marx/Lenin? I don't know much about them to type their instincts with confidence, but I don't see why they would be sx over social. I think you're giving too much credit to sx's. Oh, and also sp can be threatening in the sense of acquisition of resources/land. Most wars were fought over that, among other reasons.

The kind of sx you're describing can be seen in this song here, and would agree that's sx (Maroon 5 is very sx), but don't think it has to manifest as pure "animalism" :wink: 






It can also be:








> Sp doms and Soc doms can be equally obsessive about their one partner, their romantic interests, their crush... but the underlying instinct is different. Soc doms tend toward togetherness, codependency, being involved with each other emotionally... if any instinct is that of 'overdoing intimacy' it's Social, not Sx.


How is it different for Sp and So? What is intimate about Social?  I truly don't understand why a Social-dom would overdo intimacy over a Sx. 

It's so intimate...


----------



## knife

So last night I realized that while my fundamental desire is accruing knowledge for its own sake, what excites me more is being able to share knowledge, especially hard-won stuff where I've had to do a lot of work to see how the connections shake out and make my case.

Case in point: I now firmly believe the Andean peoples were excellent seafarers for their time. I came to this conclusion analyzing a shit-ton of circumstantial evidence, including (1) the sudden appearance and subsequent development of bronze metallurgy in northwestern Mesoamerica, which is (a) of fundamentally the same tradition as Andean metallurgy and (b) cannot have spread into that part of Mesoamerica from the south -- by contrast, this style of metallurgy was expanding southeast _towards_ the Mesoamerican heartland when Cortés showed up; (2) practical experiments done with known technology available to the Andeans demonstrating technical feasibility of the journey; (3) Pizarro had a pilot, implying the trade route between Mesoamerica and the Andes was well-understood; and (4) Inca primary sources seem to suggest they understood Mesoamerica not as an integral extension of their own continent but as an island across the water, which makes sense if they reached Mesoamerica by open-water voyaging but _not_ if they had hugged the coast.

It's taken me a fair bit of work to map out this case, and it's also entirely tangential to what drove my interest in the first place, that being development of an alternate history were Columbus did not discover the New World. But what I'm getting at here is that I really get a kick out of is not really the assemblage of the hoard but rather the ability to share stuff I've recently learned ... I'm also thinking about an Enneagram test I recently took (the one with the cards) that strongly suggests I'm So-middle and wondering whether or not bad habits I learned from my own antisocial mother has led to long-term effects that others might confuse with my own being antisocial instead of a struggle to approach the social game without a firm base to stand on and a temperament that tends to struggle with immersive learning ...


----------



## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> Would you mind clarifying a few things ?
> 
> First how would you describe an unhealthy Sx dom ?


This is a broad question and varies depending on the person. There can be different symptoms depending on their etype, cognition, background....
The underlying thread is that their type fixation will manifest in ways that are centered around attractiveness, unattractiveness, seducing, hunger and thirst for what they most desire.

As an unhealthy Sx dom myself, I became like a vampire, feeding on the desire of the living. This is not an exaggeration.  I wore my suffering on my sleeve in a sexual, vulnerable and yet dangerous way, as if daring someone to come closer because I might either give them the ride of their life or rip their heart out with my teeth. More concretely, I actually lived this out: I seduced a handful of blue-eyed virgins (some of whom I "deflowered" during orgies), I hung naked raw pics with bruises, pertaining to my losses, all over the photography area of the school; I brought friends to my hot tub to get naked and have wild nights, either all together or in separate factions; I obsessed endlessly over men I idealized, but felt I wasn't good enough for - and fucked the ones I hated, then kicked them out so they couldn't sleep with me. I got a reputation as a heartbreaker, a seductress, a siren, dangerous.. and I am not even a particularly gorgeous woman. My intense hunger and fear of true intimacy preceded me. I let people in close; these lovers of mine were not just strangers; I've never managed a one night stand despite my efforts. They always come back for more. I let my lovers close to my heart; some are still good friends, long after I got healthier and abandoned these habits. We mirrored each other deeply, consumed one another in many ways; but I still felt they couldn't really see me - my true soul was elsewhere, long dead. Yet the angelic sweethearts I obsessed over, who still had their humanity and who I would not dare put to ruin; these were most tasty to this here vampire. I told myself I would be loyal to them, I would give them everything; if only my tainted touch would not ruin them. I made a legend out of myself, unbeknownst to myself, since my friends were few and far between (and usually crossed over with my lovers). People watched me from afar, in my wild outfits and mysterious ways , with the trail of bloody art I left behind.. and wondered who I was. (This is not a presumption; I was told as much, many times.) In two different locations, people called me Art instead of my name. People who never met each other. To them, I was a walking art piece. Even during my very long periods of celibacy and white clothes, which alternated with my periods of red clothes and vampirism, I left an impression of a tortured soul- like the danger people fear in themselves, an Anima.










This is a more recent collage, which shows me in different time periods. The Sx when I was fucked up had some very dark elements; the pink haired photos standing out the most.

I have explained this many times on the forum, in many different ways but pictures may do it more justice. Check out the website link in my signature if you're interested, and the "Pictures" page, which shows my instagram scroll. Anything where I have pink hair shows a period of trauma reaction. The rest are pretty sexual too. Now, I wouldn't say that I walk around like this all the time, though people tell me I'm very magnetic and have an intense, brutal stare. I keep to myself, I have style but not an over-sexualized style by normal standards. I don't do high heels at all, makeup, or anything of the sort, but I put my raw animalism up front, with hints like heavy necklaces, snake and skull jewelry, intense colors that communicate something deeper. My 8 friend calls me an Animal and says I'm more lusty than he is.  It's not even that I have this monumental sex drive, nor have I taken LOTS of lovers per se (I'm picky), but it's the way I do it.. like my life is a dance where I balance on precipice of rejection and infatuation, arts and displays of my passion, secretly yearning for the love I don't deserve.
IRL, I'm quiet socially unless I'm with people I love OR the topic turns me on. I rarely leave the house, and nowadays I look somewhat "normal." But my image and art portrays that which fuels and fascinates me and is more real to me than my life. I don't expect all Sx doms to have this particular type of display; I am especially drawn to portray the crux of things inside me, as a life purpose.


* *





This is a description of my sexuality in 2002.









Something I wrote during a dream and woke up and found it by my bed. When I hung pics like this up at school, you could see everything.









Self portrait, 17 or 18 yrs old









Save me/you can't save me~


























> Second, how would you describe a Sexual 5 according to your views on the Sx instinct, as surely he would remain a reserved and distant person yes ?


Sexuality has nothing to do with being reserved or not being reserved. Someone can be quiet and still carry a sexualized energy about them, and will have much focus on sex, attraction, what it really means, knowing about it. The writer of The Art of Seduction is known as an INTJ 5 - probably Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp - outlining the underlying 'way it works' and how to use it to your advantage- and the book is very sexy, albeit sociopathic (and he admits it, since he's talking about animal instinct). He is 'knowledgeable about sex.' Also, Trent Reznor is a well known 5w4 Sx/Sp, typed this way by all enneagram experts (it's one of the few everyone agrees on - it's obvious). 






He sings these in public, on stage in sexy outfits..










he makes a sex bomb out of himself (including his image) and isn't afraid to exploit his own desire, betrayal, longing, vulnerability and the dark side of sex before an audience. Off stage, he was a private depressed person. One of his quotes, I wrote on my pillow: "An integral part of any relationship is knowing you can be killed in your sleep at any time." He understood the inextricable connection between sex and death.






> And thanks for the compliments  I started reading up on Enneagram seriously in late 2016/early 2017 so it's been a bit over a year. I usually alternate with periods of deep involvement in the subject and periods away from it entirely. I feel that's the healthiest way to not get too consumed in it and start looking at people as types... I've always enjoyed your posts as well, especially your old ones on E6, so high five


Ah thanks! Glad to see someone really thinking; it's a breath of fresh air. As another poster said, keep up your style!


----------



## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> The Wanderer above the Sea of Fog is way too popular an artwork. *Even my school has it hung up in several hallways with some corny message like "you never truly stand alone".* Urgh I feel violated. And now I need to change my phone wallpaper.
> @*mistakenforstranger*


:bored: That makes me cringe...

I don't know about finding Romantic art online, just seen things here and there, but I believe that's one of Shelley.


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## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> :bored: That makes me cringe...
> 
> I don't know about finding Romantic art online, just seen things here and there, but I believe that's one of Shelley.


Yeah that's what I figured, it's the eyes isn't it ? Shelley has dem big eyes.

@Animal

That sounds extreme af, not something I'd see myself do for sure lol. When unhealthy I tend mostly to close off on myself in a misanthropic manner and block out my Sx longings in fatalistic resignment, a self-imposed isolation where I implode behind closed doors. Does that sound like something else ?

I think Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights paints a good portrait, although the guy takes other things to a whole new level.

@knife

...so are you asking if you're a Social 5 or what ?


----------



## Animal

*Sexual Instinct*

These are Sx doms of all enneatypes expressing Sexual instincts (with the exception of Sting, who self-types as Sp/Sx 3w4). These are typings widely accepted by the community which I also agree with. I have zero interest in debating types. You can disagree with my typings, you can think some of these aren't Sx doms, whatever. My point here is to show the sexual instinct being expressed across all types. People who are Sx second or last can also express their sexual instinct, so this expression is not limited to Sx doms; however many of the people, Gods and Goddesses, characters and symbolic beings in this collage embody the instinct in a more pervasive way. Some, less so. I did this to demonstrate that sexual expression is not limited to type X, Y or Z. Not all Sx doms express this way in such an open fashion, but the instinct exists in all types and its expression, then, is a potential ... which is heightened by Sx neurosis (dominance).


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## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> Yeah that's what I figured, it's the eyes isn't it ? Shelley has dem big eyes.
> 
> @*Animal*
> 
> That sounds extreme af, not something I'd see myself do for sure lol. When unhealthy I tend mostly to close off on myself in a misanthropic manner and block out my Sx longings in fatalistic resignment, a self-imposed isolation where I implode behind closed doors. Does that sound like something else ?
> 
> I think Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights paints a good portrait, although the guy takes other things to a whole new level.


I don't know anything about Heathcliff, so I can't comment.
I was extreme during my trauma reaction period. I'm a 487 Sx/So, and I was raised by an ex famous rockstar who happens to be a Sx 7w8. Most people are not as extreme as he is, so my extremes were more than welcome. Like I said, I don't expect others to express this way.

But you have to understand that aside from some indulgence I had in my life, most of my time was spent alone, reflecting on it, obsessing over it and making art about it.

Outside a period of trauma, when I'm "normal-unhealthy," I don't behave this way at all, and I'm usually single by choice. I isolate myself to an extreme degree also. (Keep in mind I have written 3 music albums and several 400 + page books in order to express these feelings in private.)

But, I am not sayng that everyone has to express the same way. I don't expect that. I am simply pointing out what lies at the root of the instinct. If you see examples of the greatest extremes, perhaps you can infer the grey areas which still stem from the same place.


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## Animal

@ElectricSlime
For what it's worth, I notice that Sx/Sp's express more by brooding in the shadows whereas Sx/So's make a public display in order to lure. This is a drastic oversimplification, but you get the drift? It makes sense to me that if you are Sx/Sp, you would not be displaying publicly when unhealthy, as it would tap into your weak Soc / most deficient instinct to do so. For me, I use the world as a stage to display my art. That said, I'm still a 4 and while my display may look messy and huge, it looks that way because I spend my whole life spewing it out as an art form in private.


----------



## nep2une

*absent-mindedly realises I should probably bring up my interests like everyone else is…*

Going to do it in bullet points, because why not… 

- For about a year, I was really fixated on the topic of abuse and how to know when you're in danger of being manipulated or mistreated. That topic was something I really wanted to inform people on. This interest later branched out into subjects like pedophilia and statutory rape. One of the first times I started to show interest in group social settings was when I met people with similar interests. 

- I like politics, probably like quite a few people. But topics like healthcare and things relating to physical needs tends to get less attention from me. I know some people can seem rather passionate about these things, but I'm going to have to work on feeling similarly passionate. Physical and sexual abuse also doesn't interest me as much as emotional abuse, eating disorders, any kind of physical ailments don't interest me as much as mental illnesses. 

- Times where I've thought "I want that job" was when I was in high school and I found out about an organization dedicated to unconventional schooling. Or when I'd see anything like "To Catch a Predator" (as much as I'm aware of there being some problematic aspects to it, I can't deny the fascination). Or hearing of organizations dedicated to, well, fighting hate groups basically. 

- I was talking to my ENFP friend (who's probably sx/sp) once about what youtubers he watched for politics and I mentioned how I felt like his perceptions of the people he watches and politics in general is probably influenced in part by how divorced from social media he is. From hearing him talk, it just struck me how he seemed to basically just watch a person's videos, have an opinion based on watching those videos, and basically have no outside influence, no extra information but what he was watching. I can't imagine not having that extra information. I like knowing how they're interacting with people outside of their channels. I like knowing what their reputations are. If there's gossip or dirt on them, I've often been aware of it. I also like to at least vaguely know of everyone in a certain community. 

- One of the things that bothers me about a lot of social media accounts I see is the seeming lack of edge. Some of the accounts I look at the most are all about digging up secrets and shining a light on the worst things or people society has to offer. Sorry, I'm just not into feeds full of cat videos. I'm not particularly interested in cute things at all. Though I might occasionally still retweet them. I've actually worried before that these kinds of interests are something that could make me look weird.


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## ElectricSlime

Animal said:


> @ElectricSlime
> For what it's worth, I notice that Sx/Sp's express more by brooding in the shadows whereas Sx/So's make a public display in order to lure. This is a drastic oversimplification, but you get the drift? It makes sense to me that if you are Sx/Sp, you would not be displaying publicly when unhealthy, as it would tap into your weak Soc / most deficient instinct to do so. For me, I use the world as a stage to display my art. That said, I'm still a 4 and while my display may look messy and huge, it looks that way because I spend my whole life spewing it out as an art form in private.


That's fair. I do make "public displays" and end up having a certain renown on the social scene (I'm not uber popular either, but more so than one would expect from my loner lifestyle), but that tends to happen as an indirect consequence of me being me (an argumentative dude who easily closes psychological distance and freely moves around the environment I guess?) rather than as a goal. People don't seem to understand that it doesn't stem from the same motivations as them, and get confused on my lack of follow up and involvement in everyone's activities, as well as my preference for personal projects to parties. I find comfort in the fact that "the people" have no idea what I'm doing on the week ends and who I'm seeing. I'm definitely one to build an underground tunnel for romantic secret meetings and whatnot. And when someone tries to intrude upon or drag that private dimension of mine in the social realm for everyone to see, comment and get involved with, I go apeshit on the spot and make a scandal to drive those "evildoers" away. Then people assume I hate everyone and look down on people, I just don't have the patience to mind your rules and play by them, I'd rather be unrestricted and able to interact at my convenience with whomever. The social arena simply seems like a big unpredictable ocean where once you get caught by the waves, you might as well let them decide your course and where you end up. I'll pass.

And don't worry, I'm not one to judge on how you lead your life nor about who you might have been. People go through fucked up shit and get screwed over by life, some more than others, they deal with it as best they can. It's when people I care about start getting harmed and caught up in it that I develop bad feelings. So yeah, if you're standing here today and feeling better, that's all that matters.

Edit: And yeah, if people hadn't guessed it already, paparazzi is the single most worthless job one can get and those who make it a career can rot in Hell for all I care.


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> - I was talking to my ENFP friend (who's probably sx/sp) once about what youtubers he watched for politics and I mentioned how I felt like his perceptions of the people he watches and politics in general is probably influenced in part by how divorced from social media he is. From hearing him talk, it just struck me how he seemed to basically just watch a person's videos, have an opinion based on watching those videos, and basically have no outside influence, no extra information but what he was watching. I can't imagine not having that extra information. I like knowing how they're interacting with people outside of their channels. I like knowing what their reputations are. If there's gossip or dirt on them, I've often been aware of it. I also like to at least vaguely know of everyone in a certain community.


Just created a Facebook again recently after more than 3 years of absence. From what I'm seeing so far, you might as well live in Plato's cavern and your political opinions and sources of information will still be substantially better than whatever biased and unchecked crap people spread on there.


----------



## Coburn

.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> @Paradigm
> Oh because you know the impression I have of you ? :smug:


Fun fact, chronic pain makes you feel weird shit which makes you say weird shit.

I edited that part out since I posted it - it was too angsty, and 80% of the time I don't care as much as I had implied xD



> The thing is ILI is Se seeking, which means they look for and get turned on by Se in others.
> 
> 
> 
> Extroverted sensing is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se. There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing (Si)-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world". Unlike Si, which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I do think I know of you, you'd be more likely to actually be opposed to this way of processing the world correct ?
Click to expand...

I have a hard time answering this for several reasons:
A) I don't actually know, on an intimate level, many Se-doms, even though there's a lot of Se types in my family. FWIW, I find Se-Ti harder to be around - moreso those that rely on Ti too much - but I enjoy being around Se-Fi types usually. 
2) I don't much begrudge that way of operating, _as long as_ the value of being open-minded (and rational, frankly) is there. If taken on a purely literal level (ie without putting _any _connotations into it), I could even say I function similarly.
C) I will admit to "being drawn to" Ne types, though I think that's because I appreciate their ability to sort of "sum up" my thoughts. It's like I'm a half-finished Hangman game and they're the solvers of it. However, I feel it should be kept in mind I've literally a speech impediment and breathing issues, so talking is... hard, even at the best of times. And also that I'm not excluding Se types from being capable of doing this, I just don't know one personally who does.
D) I am actually quite close to my aunt who's an ESFP, she's pretty awesome when she's not angry or anxious.



> As for the SP argument, while I do think any type can be any Variant, I think the variant will be colored by the type. A LIE who has Si-polr will very likely have his SP instinct manifest in compulsive acquisition of material wealth rather than in bathing in comfort. Reminder that LIE and ILI aren't really _that_ different either.


Fair point, but it's hard for me to translate this into helpful info regarding xLI types... Might be because while I'm versed in MBTI, I'm not versed in Socionics lingo.



> Lastly do you relate to Gamma quadra the most ? I think Delta is a better fit based solely on "vibe", but feel free to send me flying on that one.*Shrugs*


Well, going by these...

Gamma by a mile, honestly. I will grant that I try to be "welcoming" like the Delta page is saying, and I "talk in more neutral terms" about things (because nothing is certain), but everything else is Gamma.


----------



## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> That's fair. I do make "public displays" and end up having a certain renown on the social scene (I'm not uber popular either, but more so than one would expect from my loner lifestyle), but that tends to happen as an indirect consequence of me being me (an argumentative dude who easily closes psychological distance and freely moves around the environment I guess?) rather than as a goal.


Oh yes. To be clear, when I say instinct I mean instinct.
My assumption is that if I keep doing something, I did it for a reason. So when I talk about my 'display' in retrospect, I'm analyzing why I did it and what is the drive behind it.
I never did this as a goal. My sense of purpose (the arts) has goals within it, as does my general lifestyle, but... I don't "make a display" on purpose. (Unless you count displaying my art itself; though only .01% of all the art I spew out actually makes it into the public eye.)
What I realized is that I'm Sx/So because I did this stuff instinctually. Not because I did it deliberately. If it was some kind of ploy I wouldn't call it instinct.
This is not at all a criticism on how you interpreted me: I understand why it sounded deliberate, since I was speculating on "I did X because of Y." But at the time I just kind of... did it. I actually believed, strongly, that all I wanted was a quiet life with a lover, nothing more. I believed this so strongly about myself that I actually typed at Sx/Sp until recently. But then, why did people call me "legend" or "Art" in places where I had few (if any) friends and rarely left my living quarters except for solo excursions which usually involved artistic endeavors? And yet alas. That's instinct. It's automatic. The idea of studying it is to see what's driving me, so that I'm driving IT, rather than being driven by it blindly. 



> People don't seem to understand that it doesn't stem from the same motivations as them, and get confused on my lack of follow up and involvement in everyone's activities, as well as my preference for personal projects to parties.


There are only three reasons to go to a party.
1) To show my prey how hot I look and then leave (just to insert myself into his mind),
2) To bring him away with me,
3) To play music that I'm being paid for.

I used to say that if not for sex and work (including the arts), I'd never leave the house. Doesn't mean I actually _have sex_ every time I leave the house, but the desire for someone drives me from my dark chambers and into the wild.  



> I find comfort in the fact that "the people" have no idea what I'm doing on the week ends and who I'm seeing.


This is me too. For all the depths of myself that I share in my art, on forums or with people, not a one has a freakin clue what I do day to day. One guy who I was crazy about actually cried about this. That I left in the morning but buckled up when he asked what I do during the day. That may sound extreme but I was worried he would reject me if what I was doing wasn't that interesting to him. Hilarious, since I was writing paranormal fiction about psychadelic experiences and Jungian dreamscapes.... what could be more exciting than that?? :dry: But no matter what I did I never felt I was enough for him. In most cases I share those dark corners of my psyche -but not the day to day stuff. This particular instance clued me in that perhaps I hide 'boring' stuff about me because I don't want to be rejected for being 'just another human like the rest.'



> I'm definitely one to build an underground tunnel for romantic secret meetings and whatnot.


Yes! I never put my relationships, friendships (with the exception of soul-friends) or anything like that in the public eye - until I met my husband, who is my soulmate. Our image is as one.













> And when someone tries to intrude upon or drag that private dimension of mine in the social realm for everyone to see, comment and get involved with, I go apeshit on the spot and make a scandal to drive those "evildoers" away. Then people assume I hate everyone and look down on people, I just don't have the patience to mind your rules and play by them, I'd rather be unrestricted and able to interact at my convenience with whomever. The social arena simply seems like a big unpredictable ocean where once you get caught by the waves, you might as well let them decide your course and where you end up. I'll pass.


Ah ok, this is where you are sounding more like my husband, who is a 6w5 as well, and is not Sx/So.
He loves that we put our beautiful soulmate style on display, but his general habit is to block off that crap. As for me- I think it's hot if people talk about me when I don't talk about them, obsess over me etc.. why.. because my reputation precedes me. I can't tell you how many gorgeous guys told me they heard I was dangerous, a heartbreaker... long after the wildest days were over, even....and I knew that gave me a huge advantage. It's always good to leave a legacy behind, even if it's disingenuous (though I, myself, am not inclined to be disingenuous). That said, I still don't do it on purpose. It's a consequence of living life as art, having a big 8 fix presence and being a different species from everyone else at the same time.  (I would venture to guess you attract a lot of attention due to 8 fix - would you agree?)



> And don't worry, I'm not one to judge on how you lead your life nor about who you might have been. People go through fucked up shit and get screwed over by life, some more than others, they deal with it as best they can. It's when people I care about start getting harmed and caught up in it that I develop bad feelings. So yeah, if you're standing here today and feeling better, that's all that matters.


Thanks  That is very kind of you to say. I agree.. I hurt my friends the most, the ones who cared about me. It's not that I dropped them like a hot coal or anything. It's just, they had to see me jump into the fire and burn to ashes, not knowing whether I'd be reborn or not.



> Edit: And yeah, if people hadn't guessed it already, paparazzi is the single most worthless job one can get and those who make it a career can rot in Hell for all I care.


hahahahah.
I have always treated facebook and other public media as if it is national television, and thus kept my day to day out of the public eye, instead focusing on conceptual things that I wear on my sleeve as part of my passionate personal mythology. One example is that I make a statement out of my epic battle with illness, but never yack about symptoms unless it's part of a general statement. When fellow chronic illness sufferers bring up symptoms, I try to participate, but my side of the conversation swiftly shifts away from symptoms and toward the widespread social implications of having a political illness. I present it, generally, as a battle of will, holding onto myself; a symbol of loss and resurrection.

My avoidance of day to day topics is less of an issue of privacy, and more of an issue of lacking momentum. "What do you do for work?" is not an interesting topic if you aren't passionate about your job. "Where are you from?" Nobody cares.. unless there's personal or cultural meaning there. None of this breaks boundaries... where's the juice? I'm thirsty!  I love dissecting and disseminating anything that has meaning; I love digging deep; I love momentum. Day to day topics are a dead end. This bothers me much more than worries about my own privacy, though I am protective of the privacy of others. It's also not very sexy if people associate my image with food, doctors' visits, menial jobs and trips to the grocery store.

People often protest: but you overshare everything! Nope. I harp on my personal mythology and depths, but distinctly gloss over anything too cozy.


----------



## Dangerose

knife said:


> So last night I realized that while my fundamental desire is accruing knowledge for its own sake, what excites me more is being able to share knowledge, especially hard-won stuff where I've had to do a lot of work to see how the connections shake out and make my case.
> 
> Case in point: I now firmly believe the Andean peoples were excellent seafarers for their time. I came to this conclusion analyzing a shit-ton of circumstantial evidence, including (1) the sudden appearance and subsequent development of bronze metallurgy in northwestern Mesoamerica, which is (a) of fundamentally the same tradition as Andean metallurgy and (b) cannot have spread into that part of Mesoamerica from the south -- by contrast, this style of metallurgy was expanding southeast _towards_ the Mesoamerican heartland when Cortés showed up; (2) practical experiments done with known technology available to the Andeans demonstrating technical feasibility of the journey; (3) Pizarro had a pilot, implying the trade route between Mesoamerica and the Andes was well-understood; and (4) Inca primary sources seem to suggest they understood Mesoamerica not as an integral extension of their own continent but as an island across the water, which makes sense if they reached Mesoamerica by open-water voyaging but _not_ if they had hugged the coast.
> 
> It's taken me a fair bit of work to map out this case, and it's also entirely tangential to what drove my interest in the first place, that being development of an alternate history were Columbus did not discover the New World. But what I'm getting at here is that I really get a kick out of is not really the assemblage of the hoard but rather the ability to share stuff I've recently learned ... I'm also thinking about an Enneagram test I recently took (the one with the cards) that strongly suggests I'm So-middle and wondering whether or not bad habits I learned from my own antisocial mother has led to long-term effects that others might confuse with my own being antisocial instead of a struggle to approach the social game without a firm base to stand on and a temperament that tends to struggle with immersive learning ...


and here I was feeling all smart for knowing a few words in Quechua

That's the most impressive thing I've ever heard so it seems obvious you'd want to share it, don't think that's social? what's the point of having knowledge if you're the only one? but then someone who gets the 5 psyche should say their piece

However you generally strike me as so-mid, nothing to back it up with though

How do you relate to sp/sp-last?
@nep2une wow that's so extremely social! 

(nothing more to add, was going to say it seemed a little so/sp because of focus on safety/danger/illness but that's probably more Enneagram or personal experience sort of thing? and it's not enough to say something like that I think and I wish not to confuse)

____________

I know these are fairly worthless comments but I promise I did the absolute best I could lol


----------



## owlet

Finally got some decent sleep so I can now reply.



Nissa Nissa said:


> Anyways some questions, not sure if they're very good so don't feel like you have to answer but if something in one of them catches your interest go on about that, they're just starter point questions to return to the topic so I don't think answering them very briefly will help much
> 
> -What drew you to studying culture? Can you talk about something about for example Japanese culture that is interesting to you, and why?
> -obviously a personal question...but can you talk about sex or romance or attraction in the scheme of your personality? What in your personality would you characterize as 'sexual' and why? or if not what are the reasons?
> -which of the instincts would you characterize as more of a stumbling block in your life - that actually, practically, holds you back?
> -From discussion of hobbies - can you talk more about hobbies or pursuits you obsessed over? and expand further
> -From discussion of fantasy ('sx types will imagine intense situations') - what kind of things do you imagine? can you give an example of a daydream or returning point in your thought process?
> -Can you talk about social role and its meaning for you? What's your relationship to family?
> -From discussion of invigoration - what is invigorating for you?


Some of these are on the 'too personal for sharing' side.
With culture, I just loved the feel of it - it made me feel excited to go to class to learn about it (something I hadn't felt since an English Literature class years before). Particularly, I liked the historical studies of culture in ancient Japan (Jomon period) and getting to look at and learn about identifying pottery from that time. History is like a story, but a story which is pulled into many pieces and you have to put together. On the other hand, while some aspects of modern culture were interesting (I especially liked debating why an android could be considered a person legally), it didn't give me quite the same feeling as the historical side did.
With hobbies, those include writing, reading, music and playing video games. My interest in them is generally based around being able to explore beautiful and interesting worlds - in a book or video game you can go on a long expedition, unsure of when some horror or roadblock might pop up, from the safety of your home (and for me at least, it would be very difficult to do something like that in the real world). My imagination has always been something which I love, as I can take part in anything I want, like a battle or creating scenes or something. Kind of goes into the imagination question also. Many of my imaginings I turn into stories, so unfortunately I can't really share them if I ever want to use them, but things like the revelation of betrayal, revenge, fighting for your life kind of things. Generally in a completely different world.
As for the SO instinct, it's mostly the things I said before of not having interest in people or being a part of society in general, never feeling part of a group (in university, I would drift around the class sitting wherever and never became part of one of the groups even though people from a few were very friendly to me). This can be difficult in areas such as work, where I've been expected to act as 'part of the team' and was told off once for not being friendly enough (I felt I was there to work, not chat). I really can't stand those teambuilding days businesses want to do a lot now. As long as I'm doing my work, that should be plenty.



Tad Cooper said:


> I think @*owlet* had issues determining herself as a 4 over a 5 so she might be able to help?
> 
> I'd say looking at motivations etc should help (I'm actually stuck on my type too, but not 4/5)


 @Ocean Helm yeah, looking at motivations and fears is most important. Type 5 is preoccupied with the fear of not being able to deal with the outside world and so hoards resources like information in order to be ready for anything, while type 4 is preoccupied with the fear of not being lovable as they are due to being intrinsically flawed and try to find 'themselves' (but usually it ends up with them grabbing onto one or two pieces of themselves and pushing that as their identity rather than realising humans are fluid and you simply are).



Tad Cooper said:


> Currently wondering my stackings and if I'm a 3, 6 or maybe 7/8....


What makes you think each?



ElectricSlime said:


> Oh definitely! History to me is an infinite wellspring of exploration and novel worlds. It allows for contact with different cultures regardless of time and location, is full of mysteries and epic events. By delving into the past and looking at what humans achieved and fucked up, we can discern universal truths and unique insights. The fact that it's full of grey zones also gives room to work around, question, discuss and interpret. Then there's also the part about being able to connect with individuals that you admire and vibe with, and to find some sort of comfort and fascination in seeing the world from their eyes. And lastly, if it's still not satisfying, you can always add and take off variables at will from major events, and speculate on what could've been :kitteh:


Yeah, exactly!  It gets even more interesting later on when you find accounts written by the people who weren't 'in power' at the time and see how their perspective changes what looked at first like it might be factual, but turns out to all be about perspective and ideas about cultures etc. being pushed onto them (like Orientalism and then later self-Orientalism where Japan would portray itself to the UK and Europe in a particular way at the world exhibitions to be more commercially viable). It's very interesting and keeps getting more interesting the further you go with it, because the vast majority is interconnected to an extent, so when you think you're reading one individual thread, you then come across all these other threads attached to it you can then read to get a bigger and more complex picture, leading to a massive spiderweb of information.



Nissa Nissa said:


> what subjects? :kitteh: (don't think I asked enough questions today)


Well, for example when I was little I would go swimming and imagine I was a person drowning at sea, so very dramatically have to drag myself across to the edge of the pool using floats, maybe going underwater for a while because of being attacked by something like a sea monster etc. I was rarely 'present', but always off doing something else in my head.



> Well, again I think this being 'the best' thing has gotten blown out of proportion lol, don't remember where I mentioned it originally but I wouldn't say it's that big a deal for me


Oh, I see, I'll drop that then.


> I'm not pragmatic, most things don't have a purpose for me, I'm a Ne-dom sp-last 2 or 7 :laughing: I'm not seriously competitive (I'm always baffled about how people get genuinely emotional about sports, always think they're feigning some level of caring), but I'm more competitive than I am ambitious, and more ambitious than I am practical, the concept of a task to be done is usually far away from my mind, so I'm not thinking about 'what is needed to do x' - my mind isn't intertwined with that concept, when I'm thinking of such things I am thinking of my own merit and the experience I can derive from something.
> 
> This is I think one of my more negative traits. I never learned to chase a goal. In school I didn't understand the purpose of grades and completing courses - naively, I thought I was there to learn :laughing: even when I understood that things depended on my performance in school, or even when I did understand it made more sense to focus on learning Old English when we were studying Beowulf, than to focus on...reading Beowulf and doing the stupid assignments, I always prioritized my goals, which are really just my passing interests,
> 
> and I don't know how to explain how competition is fun for me, it just is


The sports thing is examined in books on sport fandoms - and how that kind of fandom is acceptable, while scifi conventions are viewed negatively (I can find the book I was using for an essay on it if you're interested, but it's a lot about football and football is not interesting).

Hmm, I think I was the opposite when I was younger. I did the work I needed to get by and then spent the rest of the time on hobbies (at that point it was pretty much solidly reading fiction). Do you feel driven by competition, to improve yourself to be better than others, or more to be able to see yourself in that way?


----------



## Immolate

This thread continues giving 

is that Lestat in the upper right corner? 

Bjork as SX 9 brought to mind this song/video of hers






edit: I can’t see shit on my phone but that should be Bjork with the leaves and the video is sx either way


----------



## owlet

Immolate said:


> This thread continues giving
> 
> is that Lestat in the upper right corner?
> 
> Bjork as SX 9 brought to mind this song/video of hers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: I can’t see shit on my phone but that should be Bjork with the leaves and the video is sx either way


I wonder what kind of SX (if SX at all) this song would be.


----------



## Immolate

idk owl you sp/sp


----------



## owlet

Immolate said:


> idk owl you sp/sp


h:


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> h:


_Hurt me, I can take it!

_rugged strong walls hardy


Edit: I recoil every time someone brings up Trent Reznor because it paints a picture of edgy depressed teenage years.

I revisit this one from time to time:


----------



## owlet

Immolate said:


> Edit: I recoil every time someone brings up Trent Reznor because it paints a picture of edgy depressed teenage years.
> 
> I revisit this one from time to time:


I wonder about the 5w4 typing for NIN (or 6w5 even). Why not 8? I know @Tad Cooper thought 8 a while ago.


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> I wonder about the 5w4 typing for NIN (or 6w5 even). Why not 8? I know @*Tad Cooper* thought 8 a while ago.


owl what are you looking for in this thread????


----------



## owlet

Immolate said:


> owl what are you looking for in this thread????


Answers h:


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> Answers h:


sometimes idk about you owl

this one's an embarrassing reveal too






and this one






what is this to you owl? disintegrated 8 or


----------



## Tad Cooper

@owlet thanks for the response! 

So for each type for me:
3:
I have concerns over what people think of me some of the time, and other times I don't. I can be charming and can put on a good social mask. I tend to want to get people to their goals if I care about them i.e. I'll go with people to things or job hunt for people etc so they can achieve what they want to etc.
I also have a fear of failure - I hate completely failing without a really good reason i.e. I fail because I'm just not good enough. I need a fair amount of encouragement as well.

6:
Very uncertain of my own judgement to the point I avoid making decisions (I doubt I can make good decisions so defer to others I think are better with the thing I need a decision on). With that I also hate taking responsibility/being in a position of responsibility. I need reassurance what I'm doing is right. Extremely loyal to the point of it being damaging to myself - I'll stick by people or ideas I believe in until it really gets destroyed or really hurts me. Want to create a space that's safe for myself and will react very badly towards anything that disrupts that safe space.

7:
I can be scattered and am very excitable about new things/people. I hate being stuck in one place for too long if it feels like it's stagnating, and this happens periodically and usually when I'm unhappy with something in my life.

8:
Very much need to be in control of my life. I don't want to control others unless they are directly affecting me. I need to feel I'm autonomous and can come and go as I please, but also feel a really strong sense of responsibility towards people I care about and need to protect them. People can only push me around to a certain point and then I get extremely angry.

In regards to NIN: Yes, I still think 8 and don't see 6, definitely not 5 that seems odd to me!


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> Can anyone see it? How to distinguish sp and Si?


No clue :frustrating:

Same with time and space and also privacy in a way, like here we have these places for college students who come from different cities, can't imagine living there, having to live with roommates, share a bathroom, eat at their cafeteria every day with bunch of people, just being with so many people 24 hours a day, feels like I wouldn't have time to breathe.

Or like a while ago dad wanted me to come have lunch with him because I was doing something near where he works, my reaction was the worst possible 'I'd rather die' kind of 'No', so horrible that I felt guilty and called him a few minutes later to say I changed my mind to make up for it. But then I tried to be as slow as possible so he'd call and tell me he has no time to wait or something which I know is horrible (and I made it on time in the end), but really didn't want to eat in a crowded cafeteria with him, wanted to have my lunch, and it's not the kind of thing I love explaining (well he'd probably be mad at the explanation anyway, always tells me I should get used to like...existing with people, wonder how many ENFJ 2's have that problem :laughing: )

And as a kid I felt the need to hide from my friends all the time, and it's not like I had many, like rarely more than two at a time but I'd often lie about vacations, how long I'll be gone and such.


Also hate it when someone enters my room, especially if they keep walking around, looking at specific corner of the room, touching things, or like today my dad knocked over some stuff and tried to fix the situation and I just wanted to scream :frustrating:, he often does that kind of thing, it annoys me and feels so intrusive even if it's just trash or something.
I mean...partly it's because I have things I don't want him to see, so not sure if it's sp-ish, but I often have things I don't want people to see and it's hard to even explain why with many of them.


__________
Maybe more pure sp but got reminded, remember going to my little cousin's house when I was a kid and I just couldn't wait for her to go to sleep so I could be alone with her parents, either that or waited for her to go somewhere so I could be alone in her room :laughing: , would never admit it (don't know if I was even fully aware?), tried hard to not look like I was there for other reasons (and I did love playing with her at times)
Think I remember going to other children's houses and wishing I could be there but without those children :laughing:

But I could be extrovert-ish too, often tried to make people stay forever or tried to get invited to people's homes, couldn't entertain myself by myself for very long, or hated things ending, like don't remember ever feeling something's enough, always wanted to go to one more place and such, even with socializing don't remember feeling like..."Ok had enough, feel tired, wanna go home", I'd just suddenly see everyone as annoying and difficult, but would probably rather go to an amusement park than home, if that makes sense?

Maybe ExxP-ish?


----------



## Paradigm

star tripper said:


> Agreed. Only Guns N' Roses types are allowed in this thread.


I mean if you want to split hairs, then there's always this one: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/49896-enneagram-types-celebrities.html

I know it's uptight behavior to semi-complain about it, but I see this as just a big "type me" thread, not a "let's discuss strangers' types" thread.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> I mean if you want to split hairs, then there's always this one: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/49896-enneagram-types-celebrities.html
> 
> I know it's uptight behavior to semi-complain about it, but I see this as just a big "type me" thread, not a "let's discuss strangers' types" thread.


You fake 6w7.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> Meh fuck it, I'll be "that guy."
> 
> Here's a more appropriate thread: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ate-enneagram-types-fictional-characters.html
> 
> Let's talk about people who are here here, instead? ^_^


I should have a moment to hopefully respond to your post later today.


----------



## Dangerose

Not into Guns and Roses but I remember I heard that Paradise City when I was a kid at a school fair or something and I took it really literally and it sounded really magical, in odd Ni-ish way, I thought about it a lot, like I'd see something and something about it was like 'oh that could be a road to Paradise City', had a specific feeling to it, had same association with Sunset Boulevard, saw those words somewhere and it sounded like something really important, they both seemed like places I might stumble upon, hard to explain

Was surprised to actually find that song later, still has somewhat magical feel to me that it probably wouldn't if I'd heard it now,miss when I didn't know about standard devices and things sounded literal and fresh. 'Through a ***** too wide there comes in no wonder'

Haven't listened to any other songs of this band really except the two other popular ones but eh

That kind of music in general is difficult for me, it often seems...fake? I guess, or lacking some personal touch, the few songs I do like really stand out then, always trying to educate myself but I rarely find a song that inspires me to listen to other music of the band, can feel like a lack of sx? like that neon metallic sx that seems like nothing to me

(I like Led Zeppelin all right but again only the songs everyone knows...Robert Plant's a sx 7, right? but they don't have that metallic thing to me)

edit: well, they have storytelling in their songs and things a person can relate to 

will respond to other things lately, just always think about that Paradise City thing, and I wanted to be off-topic :tongue:


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> You fake 6w7.


Te and 1 fixes are both terrible mistresses.
Anyway, given that everyone loves to spout on about how 6s, especially 6w7s, are nothing but mindless rule enforcers... Well :distant: [/sarcasm]

...I just find the "let's type strangers" conversations pointless for _this specific thread_, tbh. Not that I'm looking down on the interest, it can be interesting in the right context, I just struggle to see how it's helpful for people looking to get help with their types. IMO, if talked about here, it's going to mainly lead to unsubstantiated assumptions about people (and thus types) no one knows personally, and a crap-ton of comparison typing by newbs which should be avoided.
And this isn't a "chat channel" or a "post your current rant here" thread, we have other places for those, too.

Oh, I'm still hoping for an elaboration about that whole "Delta vibe" thing btw 



Immolate said:


> I should have a moment to hopefully respond to your post later today.


I look forward to it!


----------



## star tripper

Paradigm said:


> I mean if you want to split hairs, then there's always this one: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/49896-enneagram-types-celebrities.html
> 
> I know it's uptight behavior to semi-complain about it, but I see this as just a big "type me" thread, not a "let's discuss strangers' types" thread.


I was joking.



Nissa Nissa said:


> Not into Guns and Roses but I remember I heard that Paradise City when I was a kid at a school fair or something and I took it really literally and it sounded really magical, in odd Ni-ish way, I thought about it a lot, like I'd see something and something about it was like 'oh that could be a road to Paradise City', had a specific feeling to it, had same association with Sunset Boulevard, saw those words somewhere and it sounded like something really important, they both seemed like places I might stumble upon, hard to explain
> 
> Was surprised to actually find that song later, still has somewhat magical feel to me that it probably wouldn't if I'd heard it now,miss when I didn't know about standard devices and things sounded literal and fresh. 'Through a ***** too wide there comes in no wonder'
> 
> Haven't listened to any other songs of this band really except the two other popular ones but eh
> 
> That kind of music in general is difficult for me, it often seems...fake? I guess, or lacking some personal touch, the few songs I do like really stand out then, always trying to educate myself but I rarely find a song that inspires me to listen to other music of the band, can feel like a lack of sx? like that neon metallic sx that seems like nothing to me
> 
> (I like Led Zeppelin all right but again only the songs everyone knows...Robert Plant's a sx 7, right? but they don't have that metallic thing to me)
> 
> edit: well, they have storytelling in their songs and things a person can relate to
> 
> will respond to other things lately, just always think about that Paradise City thing, and I wanted to be off-topic :tongue:


The draw of the band and what made them such a force in the music world was the exact opposite of your impression lol. The '80s were characterized by polished glam bands that presented a rather pristine, fake image (think Poison, Motley Crüe, etc). GN'R is the missing link between these bands and grunge. They were the "real deal," raw rock n' roll, unapologetic, literally doing whatever the fuck they wanted. They were "badasses," but Sweet Child O' Mine emerged from a poem Axl wrote about his then-girlfriend and eventual wife. They were hard but they were vulnerable, fragile, lightning in a bottle. They ushered in the collapse of glam.

I didn't "get" them until I saw a cover band that was essentially emulating Ritz '88. I was struck by the utter sincerity of the set. These guys were nasty, street-dwellers with a yearning, an _appetite_. They were acting of course but the inspiration was so crystal clear. I went home immediately and listened to "Coma" and "Estranged" and just like that my life was changed forever. These guys rewrote my brain chemistry. Unlike literally every band their age, they still have a rabid fanbase (like the kind that leaks court documents).

They just had all the puzzle pieces. They had rock n' roll, they had punk influence, they had rap influence, they had blues, they had Elton John... just this unique pot of raw hunger. I'm not doing them justice. I know I've professed a love for rock, but these guys really transcended the genre.


























I know I'm going a little overboard here. There just has never been anything like them and probably never will. I agree with Ocean Helm they're one of the most overt examples of sx, but I know a lot of sx-lasts who have the same admiration, though on a more vicarious level. I think over time people tend to lump them in with hair bands, but they were a departure from those bands, not a continuation.

I'm a big Zeppelin fan, but yeah, these bands are totally different. Zeppelin isn't that visceral, destructive, earnest sound.


* *




Don't damn me
When I speak a piece of my mind
'Cause silence isn't golden
When I'm holding it inside
'Cause I've been where I have been
An I've seen what I have seen
I put the pen to the paper
'Cause it's all a part of me

Be it a song or a casual conversation
To hold my tongue speaks
Of quiet reservations
Your words once heard
They can place you in a faction
My words may disturb
But at least there's a reaction

Sometimes I want to kill
Sometimes I want to die
Sometimes I want to destroy
Sometimes I want to cry
Sometimes I could get even
Sometimes I could give up
Sometimes I could give
Sometimes I never give a fuck

It's only for a while
I hope you understand
I never wanted this to happen
Didn't want to be a man
So I hid inside my world
I took what I could find
I cried when I was lonely
I fell down when I was blind

But don't damn me when I speak
A piece of my mind
'Cause silence isn't golden
When I'm holding it inside
'Cause I've been where I have been
An I've seen what I have seen
I put the pen to the paper
'Cause it's all a part of me

How can I ever satisfy you
An how can I ever make you see
That, deep inside we're all somebody
An it don't matter who you want to be
But now I gotta smile I hope you comprehend
For this man can say it happened
'Cause this child has been condemned
So I stepped into your world
I kicked you in the mind
An I'm the only witness
To the nature of my crime

But look at what we've done
To the innocent and young
Whoa listen to who's talking
'Cause we're not the only ones
The trash collected by the eyes
And dumped into the brain
Said it tears into our conscious thoughts
You tell me who's to blame

I know you don't want to hear me crying
An I know you don't want to hear me deny
That your satisfaction lies in your illusions
But your delusions are yours an not mine
We take for granted that we know the whole story
We judge a book by it's cover
And read what we want
Between selected lines

Don't hail me
An don't idolize the ink
Or I've failed in my attentions
Can you find the missing link
Your only validation is in living your own life
Vicarious existence is a fucking waste of time
So I send this song to the offended
I said what I meant and I've never pretended
As so many others do intending just to please
If I damned your point of view
Could you turn the other cheek

Don't damn me when I speak a piece a mind
'Cause silence isn't golden
When I'm holding it inside
I've been where I have been
An I've seen what I have seen
Put the pen to the paper
'Cause it's all a part of me
Don't damn me
I said don't damn me
I said don't hail me
Ah, don't damn me




Sorry Paradigm. I do find the band extremely relevant in an sx convo but that's obviously not my motive here lol.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Sx or not, I find it amazing actually how little a fuck I give about bands. Not my cup of tea I suppose.



Paradigm said:


> Te and 1 fixes are both terrible mistresses.
> Anyway, given that everyone loves to spout on about how 6s, especially 6w7s, are nothing but mindless rule enforcers... Well :distant: [/sarcasm]
> 
> ...I just find the "let's type strangers" conversations pointless for _this specific thread_, tbh. Not that I'm looking down on the interest, it can be interesting in the right context, I just struggle to see how it's helpful for people looking to get help with their types. IMO, if talked about here, it's going to mainly lead to unsubstantiated assumptions about people (and thus types) no one knows personally, and a crap-ton of comparison typing by newbs which should be avoided.
> And this isn't a "chat channel" or a "post your current rant here" thread, we have other places for those, too.
> 
> Oh, I'm still hoping for an elaboration about that whole "Delta vibe" thing btw
> 
> 
> I look forward to it!


Oh right, slipped my mind ^^' 

I'll get on it sometime today!


----------



## Cacaia

I'm quite new to the forum, but sure. I will give consent, too.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Cacaia said:


> I'm quite new to the forum, but sure. I will give consent, too.


It's not consent, it's a request.

It would help if we knew what you typed as, and if you could talk about yourself a bit and stuff.


----------



## star tripper

Meh I find music more helpful than running in circles trying to make every single attribute in one's personality fit a type. I think the written language can be rather limiting and music can capture stuff mere words can't. You can write essay upon essay about the essence of type 6, but I don't get it until I listen to Evanescence. I didn't get sx 5 (my own type) until I paired it with The Music of the Night.

If it doesn't help you, you can simply ignore it. But for some people, music itself is immensely helpful. What doesn't help me personally is all the people who come into this thread spouting circular thoughts, arguing over sources and semantics, and rejecting feedback. That does nothing for me, but it may help someone else so if you're one of those people, carry on.


----------



## ElectricSlime

star tripper said:


> Meh I find music more helpful than running in circles trying to make every single attribute in one's personality fit a type. I think the written language can be rather limiting and music can capture stuff mere words can't. You can write essay upon essay about the essence of type 6, but I don't get it until I listen to Evanescence. I didn't get sx 5 (my own type) until I paired it with The Music of the Night.
> 
> If it doesn't help you, you can simply ignore it. But for some people, music itself is immensely helpful. What doesn't help me personally is all the people who come into this thread spouting circular thoughts, arguing over sources and semantics, and rejecting feedback. That does nothing for me, but it may help someone else so if you're one of those people, carry on.


And there’s nothing wrong with that, you’re free to express yourself through musical metaphors if it’s more comfortable that way and you can find an audience for it, I’ve been guilty of doing it about dusty books myself for sure. My comment was more aimed at the bands culture and how it pertained to myself, no larger implications outside of indicating that I wasn’t part of that trend.

That said, I’m sensing passive-agressiveness from your post. I was carrying on just fine.


----------



## owlet

star tripper said:


> Meh I find music more helpful than running in circles trying to make every single attribute in one's personality fit a type. I think the written language can be rather limiting and music can capture stuff mere words can't. You can write essay upon essay about the essence of type 6, but I don't get it until I listen to Evanescence. I didn't get sx 5 (my own type) until I paired it with The Music of the Night.
> 
> If it doesn't help you, you can simply ignore it. But for some people, music itself is immensely helpful. What doesn't help me personally is all the people who come into this thread spouting circular thoughts, arguing over sources and semantics, and rejecting feedback. That does nothing for me, but it may help someone else so if you're one of those people, carry on.


The main issue is the discussion about whether those songs/artists are actually those types - especially as music is interpretative and so it may mean something to one person and something else to another. You can read lyrics, sure, but the interpretation of those will again differ. Don't get me wrong, I love music and listen to it pretty much all the time (and I've played the forum games of typing songs and artists). The issue is that you can take one song, let one hundred people listen to it, and then receive almost one hundred different takes on it depending on the individual's experiences, fields of knowledge etc.
I'm not saying not to do it - like you said, I can ignore it if I find it unhelpful - I'm just pointing out my thoughts. I also found your response saying that people are coming here 'rejecting feedback' and 'arguing over sources' etc. frustrating as that's how discussion works. If someone's not convinced by an argument, they're not going to accept it, if someone has knowledge of other sources, they're likely to bring those up. For example, that's why I'm not typing as LII 9w1 sp/so, because arguments for that were not convincing.


----------



## Dangerose

to go 9 for a sec before I respond to things (sometime) , think there is conflict that doesn't exist, @ElectricSlime I'm not sure @star tripper was talking to you, if she was I imagine she misinterpreted because that seemed clearly a mere personal statement

(also, everyone be nice to my 1D Ti, it tries)
@owlet, I think the interpretative nature of music is part of the reason it's interesting and valuable to discuss it though at some point it reaches a standstill, for instance I think discussing how two people view an artist differently could help illuminate how they see a type-related phenomenon differently, I imagine you feel about it similar to how I feel about collage typing, but I don't think anyone here is going so far as to type people based on their musical preferences, but things like how an instinct might manifest, etc.

I personally think it's better that people can talk about a variety subjects on this thread as it allows for Flow of Thought and Fun, and for me it's easier to get an idea of a person from back-and-forth, things they bring up, comments of things, rather than from strictly type-related discussions, I think 'type and what it is' 'what members types are' 'how types manifest' flow in and out of each other pretty well so it's a little confusing to break them up into their segmented portions

(but I know I'm the number one worst offender for rambling and being off-topic, so yeah)


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*owlet*, I think the interpretative nature of music is part of the reason it's interesting and valuable to discuss it though at some point it reaches a standstill, for instance I think discussing how two people view an artist differently could help illuminate how they see a type-related phenomenon differently, I imagine you feel about it similar to how I feel about collage typing, but I don't think anyone here is going so far as to type people based on their musical preferences, but things like how an instinct might manifest, etc.
> 
> I personally think it's better that people can talk about a variety subjects on this thread as it allows for Flow of Thought and Fun, and for me it's easier to get an idea of a person from back-and-forth, things they bring up, comments of things, rather than from strictly type-related discussions, I think 'type and what it is' 'what members types are' 'how types manifest' flow in and out of each other pretty well so it's a little confusing to break them up into their segmented portions
> 
> (but I know I'm the number one worst offender for rambling and being off-topic, so yeah


I agree that it's not a bad thing to discuss something like music, but it's important to be aware of its interpretative nature and, yes, to not take it too seriously. It's fun to type songs, but it's not absolute, like the collages you mentioned. Discussion is usually illustrative of certain characteristics or preferences, although again it's important to be aware of the fact this is all in a very particular context and broader questioning might be necessary to get a good idea of someone's type. It's important to have an enjoyable discussion though. Discussions shouldn't be a pain to get through.

The main issue is that the thread went from discussing music in relation to people here to being about the artists themselves, which isn't going to be helpful because it's not possible for any of us to accurately type the artists (unless someone here happens to be able to hold a discussion with them) so using x artist as an illustration of x type is misleading at best, in my opinion.


----------



## Tad Cooper

ElectricSlime said:


> Don’t have time to develop, but just wanna say real quick that I feel 6 was dismissed too quickly in @*Tad Cooper* ‘s assessment, and from the short bits I think it seems definitely more likely than 3 as a core imo.


Ohh interesting, how come?


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> I thought you meant you had literal rocks for a moment. I do think a lot of people who are nervous/have anxiety/have low self-confidence may do things similarly, not so much with the rocks, but with checking things multiple times and having a routine. I'm not really seeing anything explicitly 6 but maybe someone else can?
> I did hear that type 7 is more future-focused, always looking for the next thing. Does that sound right for you?
> That does sound more like 3. Could you see yourself as 3? So far, I could see 3 and 7 in your tritype.
> What constitutes a pointless task?


Man, I wish they were actual rocks, it'd be a lot easier. What're your thoughts on electricslime saying 6 was dismissed too fast?
Im not looking for the next thing so much as working towards a vague outline of a goal - I have a fuzzy end I want to get to (sometimes I live too far ahead and miss the stuff closer/more immediate)
How so for 3? I'm unsure about them both, and 6/8 as well!
Pointless means you are still in the same place after it as you were before, either emotionally, physically or mentally.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> to go 9 for a sec before I respond to things (sometime) , think there is conflict that doesn't exist, @ElectricSlime I'm not sure @star tripper was talking to you, if she was I imagine she misinterpreted because that seemed clearly a mere personal statement


"You can write essay upon essay about the essence of type 6, but I don't get it until I listen to Evanescence."
She was talking to me alright. But yeah, there's probably a misunderstanding.



> @owlet, I think the interpretative nature of music is part of the reason it's interesting and valuable to discuss it though at some point it reaches a standstill, for instance I think discussing how two people view an artist differently could help illuminate how they see a type-related phenomenon differently, I imagine you feel about it similar to how I feel about collage typing, but I don't think anyone here is going so far as to type people based on their musical preferences, but things like how an instinct might manifest, etc.


*pats the Ti*

I see where you're coming from and I agree to an extent, thing is we lack some landmarks to attribute those views and their manifestations to a concrete source.

Am I drawn to Nietzsche because I'm secretly a Se fanboy like him, or because we're both NTs ? Do I like beta literature cause I'm a beta (despite the fact that I really like Dostoevsky, a supposed Delta) or because I'm just drawn to those themes and characters due to life experience and upbringing ? It's a bit messy to try and fit those things into a theory, so are we doing it or making a split between type and our personal characteristics ?



> I personally think it's better that people can talk about a variety subjects on this thread as it allows for Flow of Thought and Fun, and for me it's easier to get an idea of a person from back-and-forth, things they bring up, comments of things, rather than from strictly type-related discussions, I think 'type and what it is' 'what members types are' 'how types manifest' flow in and out of each other pretty well so it's a little confusing to break them up into their segmented portions


Likewise, I start to suffocate if I'm told to be linear and keep to the theory and serious stuff.

I was actually thinking of writing a post associating historical periods/cultures to the quadras this morning, obviously it's unrefined and a bit disjointed but I feel it could get some interesting thoughts and feedback going.


----------



## Tad Cooper

star tripper said:


> Meh I find music more helpful than running in circles trying to make every single attribute in one's personality fit a type.* I think the written language can be rather limiting and music can capture stuff mere words can't.* You can write essay upon essay about the essence of type 6, but I don't get it until I listen to Evanescence.


I agree so much, language shouldn't be limited to only writing or speaking, but also art, music, movement etc. It's like how you can't get a good grasp of how someone is unless you see them, hear them, see them move, and so on.


----------



## star tripper

ElectricSlime said:


> And there’s nothing wrong with that, you’re free to express yourself through musical metaphors if it’s more comfortable that way and you can find an audience for it, I’ve been guilty of doing it about dusty books myself for sure. My comment was more aimed at the bands culture and how it pertained to myself, no larger implications outside of indicating that I wasn’t part of that trend.
> 
> That said, I’m sensing passive-agressiveness from your post. I was carrying on just fine.





owlet said:


> The main issue is the discussion about whether those songs/artists are actually those types - especially as music is interpretative and so it may mean something to one person and something else to another. You can read lyrics, sure, but the interpretation of those will again differ. Don't get me wrong, I love music and listen to it pretty much all the time (and I've played the forum games of typing songs and artists). The issue is that you can take one song, let one hundred people listen to it, and then receive almost one hundred different takes on it depending on the individual's experiences, fields of knowledge etc.
> I'm not saying not to do it - like you said, I can ignore it if I find it unhelpful - I'm just pointing out my thoughts. I also found your response saying that people are coming here 'rejecting feedback' and 'arguing over sources' etc. frustrating as that's how discussion works. If someone's not convinced by an argument, they're not going to accept it, if someone has knowledge of other sources, they're likely to bring those up. For example, that's why I'm not typing as LII 9w1 sp/so, because arguments for that were not convincing.


I was really, really not thinking of anyone in particular with my comment. I've read through this thread page by page so I was just talking about particular angles people tended to take over time that don't help me in particular. I was also not condemning that type of discussion so much as using it as an equivalent. That type of discussion helps you (in general; again, I was thinking about the patterns in this thread over time, not any particular individuals) but adding other art and sidetracking helps me.

Point was if it doesn't help you, you can just skip past it if you like. I don't think it's a major problem either way.

Edit: Electric Slime, I wasn't talking about you and I sincerely don't know how my Evanescence comment would be aimed at you. Do you do essays about 6? I picked Evanescence because I was listening to them on Spotify lmao.


----------



## owlet

Tad Cooper said:


> Man, I wish they were actual rocks, it'd be a lot easier. What're your thoughts on electricslime saying 6 was dismissed too fast?
> Im not looking for the next thing so much as working towards a vague outline of a goal - I have a fuzzy end I want to get to (sometimes I live too far ahead and miss the stuff closer/more immediate)
> How so for 3? I'm unsure about them both, and 6/8 as well!
> Pointless means you are still in the same place after it as you were before, either emotionally, physically or mentally.


Maybe some day they will become real rocks.
I think you said a couple of things which very vaguely gestured at 6 (like gestured from behind a newspaper in a busy restaurant). I don't see it as enough to make me think 6 over 7, but maybe if you elaborate more?
What's the fuzzy end goal like, roughly? Is it a general aim and, if so, what kind of aim? What would you want to avoid on the road to it?
With 3, would you do something you know will get you praise from someone, like at work, as opposed to doing something which others won't be annoyed about but also won't be interested in at all?
Thanks for the clarification! Maybe it would be handy if you talked a bit more about your general fears and motivations in life, as well as relationships to others?



star tripper said:


> I was really, really not thinking of anyone in particular with my comment. I've read through this thread page by page so I was just talking about particular angles people tended to take over time that don't help me in particular. I was also not condemning that type of discussion so much as using it as an equivalent. That type of discussion helps you (in general; again, I was thinking about the patterns in this thread over time, not any particular individuals) but adding other art and sidetracking helps me.


I never said you were talking about me :smilet-digitalpoint


----------



## star tripper

owlet said:


> Maybe some day they will become real rocks.
> I think you said a couple of things which very vaguely gestured at 6 (like gestured from behind a newspaper in a busy restaurant). I don't see it as enough to make me think 6 over 7, but maybe if you elaborate more?
> What's the fuzzy end goal like, roughly? Is it a general aim and, if so, what kind of aim? What would you want to avoid on the road to it?
> With 3, would you do something you know will get you praise from someone, like at work, as opposed to doing something which others won't be annoyed about but also won't be interested in at all?
> Thanks for the clarification! Maybe it would be handy if you talked a bit more about your general fears and motivations in life, as well as relationships to others?
> 
> 
> I never said you were talking about me :smilet-digitalpoint


I know.  It's just hard to break points up on mobile so I combined you two. Suppose I could've just said, "Hey owl!"


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I often wonder about connection between music taste and type in general, though not like... if you listen to angry music you're an 8 or whatever. And I do feel like music helps me get a better felt sense of things, since it lets me get into a state that's different from how I usually experience things, etc. Obviously it's subjective, but Enneagram in general is subjective. 
(Can't really get into Guns N' Roses though.)

Don't have time to say more than that right now, other than I also deal better with a free flow of conversation.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Si in socionics is about a focus on internal sensations, so both positive and negative but generally pursuing positive internal sensations (what can create those differs from individual to individual though). SP on the other hand, is about the practical concerns of everyday life "centering around issues of security, food and health, employment, sustainability", so it's more practically-based than Si.


Yeah
The thing is I have no idea about Si for example, not sure how much I pursue positive internal sensations, feel like I do it without my noticing, or I'm not sure what is normal, 1D Si feels right? but I'm not sure if it's because I don't really like the idea of Si, similar issue with sp, I hate the idea of being sp-first (and there's no way it's middle, first or last for sure) but I feel like these things might be more of an issue than I acknowledge, and because these are both things I devalue for similar reasons they all fall into the same category for me, I think

I mean...well I'm doing gardening so I was listening to some gardening podcast as I worked, the guy was really Si, it was kind-of interesting but he had a whole thing about the different kinds of cold (not for plants, for him), was talking for about five minutes about different ways of feeling cold, then he was talking about how it felt to drink tea when it was cold, can't remember it all, just a lot of Si commentary, I thought that really strange but then I was realizing, I think about the cold all the time, if it's cold, I riff on it mentally, etc.

And:



> security


 never _think_ I focus on that, most people would call me ridiculously insecure  (in that I don't care to lock things, whatever) but then I get really concerned about like...burglars in my house or whatever, last night I barely slept because my window won't close* so the curtain was making a lot of noise and I kept thinking there was someone in the house lol (well, apparently there are some thieves going through the neighbourhood), I feel like I almost have an image of myself as a person who doesn't really mind about security, and I certainly never remember to take steps in advance, but I am concerned about it...when it's the middle of the night and I'm thinking about burglars

*I worked SO HARD for like 2 days to get it to open so I could have some air in my room, worst decision of my life, it's like an icebox, way too much air



> food and health


 well I really like food, I'm always eating, it's complicated though because there have been years of confusion about eating, never had exactly an eating disorder but I definitely think about it in a disordered way so I'm not sure it can count, except that I'm never ok with not eating, more than other people I think

And health, it's shaky too, I don't like to think about my health or other people's but it's partly because it really freaks me out, I don't go to the doctor but it's partly because I'm scared to go to the doctor, I'm constantly noticing some thing and then trying to indirectly find out that it's not something that's going to kill me

But I would maybe consider it in the range of sp-last because I don't really have a gradient, healthi*er* doesn't mean much to me because I'm either alive or dead, just don't want the second



> employment


not exactly something I worry about



> sustainability


something I've never thought of

I mean I don't feel that sp but I feel like it's because I consciously chose to not value those things, or because I avoid them (7-style?)

And the other things I said, guardedness



Remnants said:


> Idk, it reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier, how I do find myself having some "Se-envy" with some things, despite not even valuing Se. Hard to put into words, but something about how living life and seizing the moment as if the world is in your grasp, even if it's self-destructive and stuff, seems arousing in a way.
> 
> Like this gif I saw earlier brings up this sort of wistful feeling. Don't take it too literally, as it's more about the feel than actual desire to be at the top of the world like that =P
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Lol, this is embarrassing. And slightly depressing.)


Hm, not sure I can relate, the way I'd relate would be different and I can't place it
(It's an interesting gif visually! keep watching it) 
but hm, it's interesting



nep2une said:


> Well, it _is_ extreme and not exactly the kind of lifestyle that would generally be recommended or that I would recommend. And at least some parts of it are hazardous to health - like the drugs. I'm not currently looking at the post again so I can't remember what else might be hazardous, maybe just the drugs. It's not unreasonable at all to say, "God, that sounds horrible!"


Yeah, I guess I'm glad I don't want that kind of thing 



> Hmm... Yeah, never been able to relate to that. Always have enjoyed those kinds of events. Though eventually I would need to go be alone in my room for awhile because I can't have eyes on me 24/7 or be within eyesight of people 24/7. ... Unlike an ex-roommate of mine (ENxP, probably Sx/Sp, definitely, _definitely_ Sx-dom). That madman would spend half the day at work then come home, be around me or his wife, then when he would be by himself it'd either be at the computer or asleep, but with his bedroom door open. I don't know how he could stand that.


:shocked:
(I knew an ExFP 7w6 sx/so who was very similar, really hard for me to contemplate
And I did enjoy those things...I mean I always wanted to have more friends or spend more time with my friends, don't remember about when I was a kid (didn't have any close friends as a kid though, more acquaintances and playmates) but in high school I was always upset that my friends didn't meet more often, in a way even angry...but now those people weary me after a couple hours, so it might be I've just gotten unused to being around people so much. I don't think I minded as a kid but I got some sort of sickly feeling after a while, very specific sensation that I don't know how to explain in words



> Yeah, again, don't relate. I don't mind answering personal questions. If anyone here is familiar with Bioware games, I've had a history of being a little bit like a Bioware companion. lol "Here's my whole life story/tragic backstory!" Thing about it, though, is it's really not intimacy-building. It's basically nothing to me to talk about things like that. I have trouble thinking of anything that's really "private" to me?


Hm, it's interesting, I'm not sure myself, I don't think I mind talking about my emotions or things, probably not with random cashiers or taxi drivers or whatever, I was thinking more of literal questions like 'where are you from?' 'what's your name?' 'how old are you?', 'where do you work?' maybe it's just boring the same questions always

(I don't mean with people I'm getting to know)

But also...in school and similar activities there would be those assignments with really personal questions for no reason, about feelings or whatever and I'd always hate those, make things up, I think it was the contrivance of the situation that bothered me, not sure if these were things I wouldn't have openly said in the course of conversation



> Anyway back to the "it's not intimacy-building" thing - it really doesn't appear to be. That's kind of the thing about me. I can talk about things that could be viewed as personal and yet it's more of in an unemotional, matter-of-fact way with a level of distance. The only time that's ever been different, where I've actually let emotions and intimacy come into it, has been with a significant other. Maybe one day with a friend, too, that might be healthy for me.


Interesting, makes sense



> 3. For some reason I had a bad habit of talking about it with one of my crushes? And trying to gently nudge them into talking about it, too. They were rather private. It was interesting to me, just because being private like that seemed so different to me. And I used to watch a lot of drama channels and I don't know, I'm just so used to people being very transparent about their lives. It seems almost like being private like that is something from another time.


Oh gosh, reminded me of how I'm always skipping to personal things with people I have crushes on










I mean I don't have that many deeply personal things in the first place but I just start throwing out all kinds of information like 'so these are the names of all my aunts' 'I liked to play (such and such) a game when I was a kid', or things about my personality, but not in the places it is appropriate to bring them up in conversation, I think because I want them to be in the place where they find all those details endlessly fascinating, or want them to share similar things, or just want them to know everything about me even if I also want to control presentation 

so it's a bad habit



> This was mostly me blathering on about myself and people I've known. Sorry if that's unappreciated, I just find it interesting comparing differences and my knowledge of instincts is a bit vague so I can't really go into that.


No, it's interesting and I like to read it!



Vixey said:


> Same with time and space and also privacy in a way, like here we have these places for college students who come from different cities, can't imagine living there, having to live with roommates, share a bathroom, eat at their cafeteria every day with bunch of people, just being with so many people 24 hours a day, feels like *I wouldn't have time to breathe.*


ugh yeah (I've lived with a roommate only once, it was ok because she was also very private, we'd agree at what hours we'd get to be in our room ) and she was really nice as well

I like the bold



> (well he'd probably be mad at the explanation anyway, always tells me I should get used to like...existing with people, wonder how many ENFJ 2's have that problem :laughing: )


(yes, relatable)



> Also hate it when someone enters my room, especially if they keep walking around, looking at specific corner of the room, touching things, or like today my dad knocked over some stuff and tried to fix the situation and I just wanted to scream :frustrating:, he often does that kind of thing, it annoys me and feels so intrusive even if it's just trash or something.
> I mean...partly it's because I have things I don't want him to see, so not sure if it's sp-ish, but I often have things I don't want people to see and it's hard to even explain why with many of them.


Yes, exactly
(And I don't really have things I don't want people to see except I also do, it's not like I have any legit secrets but :frustrating: 



> Maybe more pure sp but got reminded, remember going to my little cousin's house when I was a kid and I just couldn't wait for her to go to sleep so I could be alone with her parents, either that or waited for her to go somewhere so I could be alone in her room :laughing: , would never admit it (don't know if I was even fully aware?), tried hard to not look like I was there for other reasons (and I did love playing with her at times)
> Think I remember going to other children's houses and wishing I could be there but without those children :laughing:


:laughing:

I always hated other childrens' houses, always felt miserable in them and wanted to leave whenever I could, always wanted people to come to my house instead



> But I could be extrovert-ish too, often tried to make people stay forever or tried to get invited to people's homes, couldn't entertain myself by myself for very long, or hated things ending, like don't remember ever feeling something's enough, always wanted to go to one more place and such, even with socializing don't remember feeling like..."Ok had enough, feel tired, wanna go home", I'd just suddenly see everyone as annoying and difficult, but would probably rather go to an amusement park than home, if that makes sense?


Yes, I used to be more like this at least, maybe it's stopped or something, not sure, I've had several social situations recently where I just want to go home at any cost

But I always hated parties ending more than anything else, don't have time to try to bridge the difference, I've talked about it before anyways


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> I agree that it's not a bad thing to discuss something like music, but it's important to be aware of its interpretative nature and, yes, to not take it too seriously. It's fun to type songs, but it's not absolute, like the collages you mentioned. Discussion is usually illustrative of certain characteristics or preferences, although again it's important to be aware of the fact this is all in a very particular context and broader questioning might be necessary to get a good idea of someone's type. It's important to have an enjoyable discussion though. Discussions shouldn't be a pain to get through.


agree I think



> The main issue is that the thread went from discussing music in relation to people here to being about the artists themselves, which isn't going to be helpful because it's not possible for any of us to accurately type the artists (unless someone here happens to be able to hold a discussion with them) so using x artist as an illustration of x type is misleading at best, in my opinion.


And now we're just talking about what we should be talking about :laughing:
Well, I like to type music and celebrities, and fictional characters, I agree you might not be able to come to an absolute correct type for an artist, but I do think it's possible to come up with a good guess. I would say that there might be a difference between a person as an artist and a person as a person, and a person as an artist has communicated via their art, not for the purpose of discovering Enneagram type oc but I they've provided information, think it should be fine to look at that information and make judgements about it.



ElectricSlime said:


> *pats the Ti*


:chat02:



> I see where you're coming from and I agree to an extent, thing is we lack some landmarks to attribute those views and their manifestations to a concrete source.
> 
> Am I drawn to Nietzsche because I'm secretly a Se fanboy like him, or because we're both NTs ? Do I like beta literature cause I'm a beta (despite the fact that I really like Dostoevsky, a supposed Delta) or because I'm just drawn to those themes and characters due to life experience and upbringing ? It's a bit messy to try and fit those things into a theory, so are we doing it or making a split between type and our personal characteristics ?


I don't know, why are you drawn to Nietzche? I don't think that's the end of the conversation, and I do agree that...it can end up in circles, especially if you take everything as an equally valid data point and suspend your own judgement.

edit: oh, hope you make that post, sounds interesting!

(not smart right now, sorry if I missed the point . . . will look at the Guns n'Roses post tomorrow, so many videos and I'm not in a new-music mood rn)


----------



## star tripper

Complete side note vaguely related to what @Nissa Nissa and @Remnants said, but I also think the way we see music and type it could be reflective of type. Like it might say something if you connect x to y or ascribe a to b. Like sometimes when I see @Animal's reasonings for typings, there's just a ton of 4-style self-referencing. Or Nissa Nissa's Ne-style explosive posts. It's not strong evidence or anything but it is amusing to see where we naturally trail left to our own devices, innit.


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> But I would maybe consider it in the range of sp-last because I don't really have a gradient, healthier doesn't mean much to me because I'm either alive or dead, just don't want the second


Same, not sure what it says about instincts, remember thinking sp/sx could be kinda like that, not sure what my reasoning was
(don't think you're sp/sx but not sure if it has to be sp last)

Like remember years ago telling my dad and stepmother was there too, how I don't care much about pain as long as I know I won't die, they were really surprised, and I mean it's not exactly...idk, like I do hate discomfort, I don't like feeling sick even though I know I'll survive, but that's different, the point is I focus more on possibility of death than feeling of pain, feel like I'd rather live in pain than die, you get used to pain, being dead means you can't get used to anything anymore because you can't feel or think anything about anything anymore.
Or like stepmother once said how she fears death mainly because she fears it being scary or painful and I was like ??? , I fear death because I don't wanna not be alive.


Also have trouble caring about...not sure if it's the best explanation but it popped into my mind right now, feels so silly to suffer through eating an apple when I might already have cancer or something and an apple isn't gonna save me and in case I don't have cancer I still really doubt an apple can stop death, therefore apples are useless in my book


----------



## ElectricSlime

@star tripper 

I have written a handful of walls of texts about E6 in the past weeks yes lol. Looks like I was the one who misunderstood, that's my bad. Glad that's cleared up

@Tad Cooper



> So for each type for me:
> 3:
> I have concerns over what people think of me some of the time, and other times I don't. I can be charming and can put on a good social mask. I tend to want to get people to their goals if I care about them i.e. I'll go with people to things or job hunt for people etc so they can achieve what they want to etc.
> I also have a fear of failure - I hate completely failing without a really good reason i.e. I fail because I'm just not good enough. I need a fair amount of encouragement as well.
> 
> 6:
> Very uncertain of my own judgement to the point I avoid making decisions (I doubt I can make good decisions so defer to others I think are better with the thing I need a decision on). With that I also hate taking responsibility/being in a position of responsibility. I need reassurance what I'm doing is right. Extremely loyal to the point of it being damaging to myself - I'll stick by people or ideas I believe in until it really gets destroyed or really hurts me. Want to create a space that's safe for myself and will react very badly towards anything that disrupts that safe space.
> 
> 7:
> I can be scattered and am very excitable about new things/people. I hate being stuck in one place for too long if it feels like it's stagnating, and this happens periodically and usually when I'm unhappy with something in my life.
> 
> 8:
> Very much need to be in control of my life. I don't want to control others unless they are directly affecting me. I need to feel I'm autonomous and can come and go as I please, but also feel a really strong sense of responsibility towards people I care about and need to protect them. People can only push me around to a certain point and then I get extremely angry.


The 6 portion is distinctively 6ish (and accessorily 9ish), no living 8 would say that, at all. I'm not trying to paint a picture of Eights as superhumans here, they _can_ get insecure (about being fat for example), but one thing they don't doubt, even at lower health, is their abilities and drive to take charge and responsibility, for themselves AND others as long as they don't have a negative disposition for said others. I've said before that my main beef with core 8s was that a lot of them came across to me as big babies who felt control and charge were born in their lap and couldn't even conceive the fact that they weren't as qualified as they thought they were for the job, hence throwing a tantrum when people offered resistance. Healthy and competent 8s are pretty awesome though, it's just too bad a fucktard 8 is harder to get rid of than a fucktard 9 or 5. And I totally own up to the fact that 8 is very much part of my tritype lol. Anyways, I think it's the easiest one to rule out as core. Eights have no need for reassurance (actually that's a lie, but they think they don't) It might be your fix (though I'd look into 9w8) but I'm positive it's not your core.

On 7: Nothing to dig in, those are some pretty superficial traits, I'm guessing the fact that you didn't expand that much further means that's as far as it goes to you. Though I'm thinking that if you are a 6, you'd be 6w7.

On the 3 bits: I relate to what you said. The way you put it though, it doesn't sound like it's a particular neurosis of yours. As if, if your core type and fear is an ocean you're trying to brave, the way you describe 3 would be like taking an occasional dip in some pond yes ? 

I think what Sina says in that thread: http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-f...-treated-unfairly-enneagram-descriptions.html

and what unefille says generally in this one: Dislike of Enneagram type 3

are an excellent insight into the Three mindset. As Naranjo says, there's a marketing orientation to E3 (and from what I've seen, a certain craftsmanship of the self among 3w4s), reframing of bad traits into a positive or even admirable light, a calculated, smooth, sometimes plastic-like façade. Does that speak to you anyhow ? I'm guessing it seems like a degree of self-consciousness and image concern alien to you ? :wink:

I'm willing to go deeper about E6, but I'd like to hear whether you have any disagreements with what I've written here so far so we don't end up juggling with too many walls of text about various types.


----------



## nep2une

Remnants said:


> I often wonder about connection between music taste and type in general, though not like... if you listen to angry music you're an 8 or whatever. And I do feel like music helps me get a better felt sense of things, since it lets me get into a state that's different from how I usually experience things, etc. Obviously it's subjective, but Enneagram in general is subjective.
> (Can't really get into Guns N' Roses though.)
> 
> Don't have time to say more than that right now, other than I also deal better with a free flow of conversation.


Well, I guess music taste might reflect either who you are and what you relate to - or what fascinates you, what you are not but wish you could be, what you might dislike but nonetheless be drawn to as much as you are repelled, perhaps your "shadow side". 

My music tastes would probably be more like the latter, what fascinates me, but I guess the former might be mixed in some, too. 

With lyrics like this:

"Don't say no, let it unfold out
And we'll take the embrace of steel, it's where I'm found
All I know, is an Ocean out
And the look on your face was here in every sound…"

"I'm slipping into the deep end
I'm in over my head
I can't catch my breath
I'm slipping into the deep end
Feel the current within
I can't help but give in..."

"Come down to the Black Sea swimming with me
Go down with me
Fall with me
Lets make it worth it…"

(My water obsession is showing again)

All these lyrics having to do with letting go, losing control, giving in, being overwhelmed… while in real life I'm this tightly controlled person who never really lets any of that happen to me. 

I think it can actually make sense with my 9w8 typing. I believe I've mentioned here already that with music (or fiction in general), I can explore themes like that while having control and not having my peace of mind potentially shattered. 9 wanting peace of mind, 8 wanting to avoid being controlled or harmed by others or from submitting to them. 

Bonus movie quote: "Perfection is not just about control. It's also about letting go." - Black Swan

I don't think I'm particularly interested in perfection, it's more of the whole control vs letting go thing that has always made me like that quote. 

So for me, my taste can tend to show not so much what I relate to, but what interests me… Now, star tripper here… (someone please tell me how to mention, it's kinda ridiculous that I still don't know how to - I use mobile 99.9% of the time if that's needed info)



star tripper said:


> Don't damn me
> When I speak a piece of my mind
> 'Cause silence isn't golden
> When I'm holding it inside
> 'Cause I've been where I have been
> An I've seen what I have seen
> I put the pen to the paper
> 'Cause it's all a part of me


What she's bringing up is probably less the latter, more the former (that's not implying she lives a rockstar lifestyle, because I doubt that lol). I can't say my music tastes seem particularly Fi-ish/Ti-ish. Now hers, from these brief glimpses, on the other hand… Doesn't it seem like something that wouldn't be surprising to hear an ENTP say they like? Or someone who has a bit of 6 and 8 and 4 in them. That's not to say all ENTPs would like Guns N' Roses but the themes here… 

Me, on the other hand (more switching of hands here)… My music doesn't tend to feature these themes. It's neither something I relate to, nor something that fascinates me.



star tripper said:


> Complete side note vaguely related to what @Nissa Nissa and @Remnants said, but I also think the way we see music and type it could be reflective of type. Like it might say something if you connect x to y or ascribe a to b. Like sometimes when I see @Animal's reasonings for typings, there's just a ton of 4-style self-referencing. Or Nissa Nissa's Ne-style explosive posts. It's not strong evidence or anything but it is amusing to see where we naturally trail left to our own devices, innit.


I wonder how the way I see it could reflect on me... Maybe my lack of thinking shows in it? Probably particularly Te-lacking... L:


----------



## star tripper

In retrospect I could've picked a different enneagram other than the people who preceded me. I might actually need to start on that emoji business, too.



nep2une said:


> Well, I guess music taste might reflect either who you are and what you relate to - or what fascinates you, what you are not but wish you could be, what you might dislike but nonetheless be drawn to as much as you are repelled, perhaps your "shadow side".
> 
> My music tastes would probably be more like the latter, what fascinates me, but I guess the former might be mixed in some, too.
> 
> With lyrics like this:
> 
> "Don't say no, let it unfold out
> And we'll take the embrace of steel, it's where I'm found
> All I know, is an Ocean out
> And the look on your face was here in every sound…"
> 
> "I'm slipping into the deep end
> I'm in over my head
> I can't catch my breath
> I'm slipping into the deep end
> Feel the current within
> I can't help but give in..."
> 
> "Come down to the Black Sea swimming with me
> Go down with me
> Fall with me
> Lets make it worth it…"
> 
> (My water obsession is showing again)
> 
> All these lyrics having to do with letting go, losing control, giving in, being overwhelmed… while in real life I'm this tightly controlled person who never really lets any of that happen to me.
> 
> I think it can actually make sense with my 9w8 typing. I believe I've mentioned here already that with music (or fiction in general), I can explore themes like that while having control and not having my peace of mind potentially shattered. 9 wanting peace of mind, 8 wanting to avoid being controlled or harmed by others or from submitting to them.
> 
> Bonus movie quote: "Perfection is not just about control. It's also about letting go." - Black Swan
> 
> I don't think I'm particularly interested in perfection, it's more of the whole control vs letting go thing that has always made me like that quote.
> 
> So for me, my taste can tend to show not so much what I relate to, but what interests me… Now, star tripper here… (someone please tell me how to mention, it's kinda ridiculous that I still don't know how to - I use mobile 99.9% of the time if that's needed info)
> 
> 
> 
> What she's bringing up is probably less the latter, more the former (*that's not implying she lives a rockstar lifestyle, because I doubt that lol*). I can't say my music tastes seem particularly Fi-ish/Ti-ish. Now hers, from these brief glimpses, on the other hand… Doesn't it seem like something that wouldn't be surprising to hear an ENTP say they like? Or someone who has a bit of 6 and 8 and 4 in them. That's not to say all ENTPs would like Guns N' Roses but the themes here…
> 
> Me, on the other hand (more switching of hands here)… My music doesn't tend to feature these themes. It's neither something I relate to, nor something that fascinates me.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how the way I see it could reflect on me... Maybe my lack of thinking shows in it? Probably particularly Te-lacking... L:


BITCH U DONT KNOW MY LIFE.

[MENTION*]name[/MENTION*] but remove the asterisks. Sometimes it doesn't work for me on mobile. I might need to stop replying on cheap MetroPCS phones.

My 9w8 so/sp friend loves to "look in" on lifestyles through music. She doesn't relate to the music even as a reverse shadow experience. She just finds it all cool.

That's wild to me. It's not just that I relate to music I love, but eventually... it relates to me? It becomes _mine_. It gets up inside me. I'm no longer an observer but a participator. Not only do I, of course, relate to the fuckemall mantras in rock songs, but I need the music to... inspire my imagination so to speak. I need to see the song in my mind's eye. That's why I also love Iron Maiden who also push that speak your mind and fuck the world mantra but through theatrics just vivid enough to spurn your own personal imagination. I think that's where potential ESTP territory becomes firmly ENTP. The mind is an opera and I'm at the helm.

Your approach reminds me of my bff's except you have a touch of personalization because you write about it being your shadow self. My friend still feels lost and without a defined identity. I'm sure that can be seen in her depersonalization of music.

Btw, I do find you Te-lacking. Not because of anything pertaining to logic and reasoning, but your engagement style is just so much less rigid and more accessible.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> I don't know, why are you drawn to Nietzche?


That's a good question. I did say I had a Raskolnikov phase about a year ago. I used to be quite set on Nietzsche (though I've kinda moved away, probably definitely, but the magnetism is still there) and now I have fondness for Kierkegaard, and just guys like Voltaire that question and mock things and don't impose some kind of objective truth on people. Kierkegaard had his thoughts and his opinion is quite clear, but he still very much encourages the person reading to do his own seeking and come to his own conclusion. I'm not sure how to structure my thoughts neatly yet so I'll just keep writing and adjust as I do so. 18 years old with few life experience in the legs doing a angsty rant incoming 

The obvious I noticed is that most people are very attached to their ways of life, and that most people get that way of life from what society conditions them to do. They live without questioning things too much and the worst of them actually take pride in willful ignorance (like my sister, and all the people she hangs with). I know, seems arrogant and over assuming, but it's what I keep seeing around me. Doesn't stop a portion of them to be great and kind people, but still. That's especially frustrating when one wants to ask questions, inquire and find comfort in his peers. The biggest problem is when those people start sanctioning those that don't subscribe to that conformist mindset and stand out too much through their iconoclastic attitude. Worst even, is those that get put down and have their wings clipped by the masses because they dare to put into question things and make their ideas known, or simply stand against the circlejerk. Start having success and people will envy and try to destroy you through guilt tripping and social shaming to silence you into humbleness. We don't like people that take too much place and don't adhere to our level of ordinariness, it's the slave morality vs master dichotomy I'm reaching at here. People are quick to get offended, and minorities of all kinds, with their own agenda, quick to take advantage of that fact to make you feel guilty and leech power off of you. The whole triggered SJW band and some Muslim groups exemplify this perfectly. All a silly subtle power dynamic that keeps society's attention and paints itself as a tragedy, while there are bigger fishes to catch (fiscal competition for one). And yet all these morals, all these current "righteous" opinions, are really just a bunch of relative crap that people had their environment drill into their brain through guilt or desire for social inclusion.

And while it's especially true of the circus we're living in right now, it hasn't been all that different throughout history. Humanity has always tried to establish their way as the best way and has always punished those that deviated from those ways, even if they were the ones standing on top just a few centuries ago. 

So Nietzsche's Will to Power and his Ubermensch concept is quite appealing. Rise above the herd instinct and mentality that dominated mankind for as long as it has existed, find yourself, create your own values disconnected from societal pressures and norms and transcend the sort of life you were doomed into to reach a superior stage of existence. Not even for the sake of the afterlife or any other concept that requires suspension of disbelief, but simply for yourself. It's not even circumstantial, but timeless, as it could apply to anyone from any era. "Whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" simply rationalizes away the pain you'll endure going through that process.. The finest steel has to be tampered through the hottest fiery pits of Hell, after all. 

And that's where the problem brought up by Dostoevsky comes in. If morality is subjective and relative, and we are to seek our own, any piece of trash who has no problem committing harm upon another for his own benefit, technically shouldn't be reprimanded. It's the law of nature after all, how animals in freedom operate. And yet... It doesn't sit right with me. But if I backpedal and state that it's still a valid point of view EXCEPT for X and Y values that in my opinions are necessary, then I'm just imposing my own subjectivity upon the world and declaring my opinion is the right one which defeats the purpose of the philosophy in the first place... As such, doing so is recognizing that I'm no different from those asshats that want their own pronoun specifically tailored for their "attack helicopter" gender...

So yeah, fucking sucks. I still don't have an answer for this one. Dosto and Kierkegaard would simply say "embrace the Touch of God and free yourself from those doubts born out of logical contradiction and a submission to your conscience". I don't have what it takes for that leap of faith unfortunately. I guess my attraction to Nietzsche was/is due to him being a fellow edgelord of that fight.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

owlet said:


> I agree that it's not a bad thing to discuss something like music, but it's important to be aware of its interpretative nature and, yes, to not take it too seriously. It's fun to type songs, but it's not absolute, like the collages you mentioned. Discussion is usually illustrative of certain characteristics or preferences, although again it's important to be aware of the fact this is all in a very particular context and broader questioning might be necessary to get a good idea of someone's type. It's important to have an enjoyable discussion though. Discussions shouldn't be a pain to get through.


Isn't it all interpretative, though? I really don't see a difference between typing a song or typing a person online here. Everyone here is interpreting whatever "thing" is in question, whether that be a person, song, book, etc. using their knowledge of Enneagram. I also think songs can at least be somewhat helpful as a way of showing how a certain type manifests by taking things from the realm of theory, and often a lot of conjecture, and applying it to a real-life example, or a person saying they relate to a song/character as a way of showing a facet of themselves that would perhaps be harder to put into words if asked, "What are your fears and motivations? Talk about yourself." It's so open-ended and vague, like where do you even begin, but maybe some people are okay with discussing themselves in that way too. One doesn't have to type a person completely on the basis of one's relation to a certain "thing", but I don't think it's completely irrelevant and can even add some "objectivity" to the process by stepping outside one's self-interpretative lens. 



> The main issue is that the thread went from discussing music in relation to people here to being about the artists themselves, which isn't going to be helpful because it's not possible for any of us to accurately type the artists (unless someone here happens to be able to hold a discussion with them) so using x artist as an illustration of x type is misleading at best, in my opinion.


I don't really see why we can't accurately type the artist, or at the very least, the image we have of the artist, without having a discussion with them. There's interviews, biographies to read, songs to listen to, quotes, etc, and I think you can easily get a general sense of a person from that and which particular type patterns they show. In fact, we may even have a better assessment of these people's types, since they are presumably unaware of Enneagram and there is no pressure of being "typed" that would possibly influence their behavior, unlike here where everyone on some level knows what characteristics link to what type. I find it funny how this line of reasoning that it's impossible to type someone is never used when say for example Johnny Depp or Marilyn Manson are brought up as Type 4 examples, because no one disagrees with it, but the minute there's disagreement about a celebrity's type, then people say we can't type anyone completely or accurately, everything is up to one's own interpretation...:dry: I can see why it doesn't lead anywhere when it comes to that, and why it's unproductive in this thread (though, this is a rather unproductive thread overall, let's be honest haha), but I just find the process of typing celebrities/songs/characters fun and interesting too! :tongue: 

Here's the only celebrity who I've found is aware of Enneagram talking about it and her type in an interview, which is kind of cool!


----------



## Ocean Helm

Now that Marilyn Manson has been brought up, I do have some questions about his legitimacy as a 4. Part of the criticism I always see thrown his way is that he is "fake", "inauthentic", "just an attention seeker", etc. If this is in fact the case and the whole Marilyn Manson™ image is ultimately just performance art for some other motivation than self-expression, or a focus on self-individuality, then why is he seen as a token 4, or is this allowed if you say that he has strong social instinct?

Are we just sort of suspending disbelief when it comes to what we see, and saying "okay, Marilyn Manson™ is a 4, who cares about the person born as Brian Hugh Warner?" Or is there something intrinsic about the actual concrete actions that he does that mean he can be nothing except 4?

I really don't want this to turn into talking about celebrities, but when I see him treated as a canon 4 it makes me feel like I'm missing something when I don't even see anyone playing devil's advocate against the idea.


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> Yeah
> The thing is I have no idea about Si for example, not sure how much I pursue positive internal sensations, feel like I do it without my noticing, or I'm not sure what is normal, 1D Si feels right? but I'm not sure if it's because I don't really like the idea of Si, similar issue with sp, I hate the idea of being sp-first (and there's no way it's middle, first or last for sure) but I feel like these things might be more of an issue than I acknowledge, and because these are both things I devalue for similar reasons they all fall into the same category for me, I think
> 
> I mean...well I'm doing gardening so I was listening to some gardening podcast as I worked, the guy was really Si, it was kind-of interesting but he had a whole thing about the different kinds of cold (not for plants, for him), was talking for about five minutes about different ways of feeling cold, then he was talking about how it felt to drink tea when it was cold, can't remember it all, just a lot of Si commentary, I thought that really strange but then I was realizing, I think about the cold all the time, if it's cold, I riff on it mentally, etc.


SP level is zero, so probably SP-last. How do you feel about so/sx as your stack possibly?
As for Si, it's important to try and remove bias towards or away from it, as that can affect your focus. Try to look at your thought patterns in an objective way, if possible, to see what you're drawn to and what you largely focus on. I'd also recommend reading up on the dimensionality of the functions if you haven't (or haven't for a while) as it can be quite handy.



Nissa Nissa said:


> agree I think
> And now we're just talking about what we should be talking about :laughing:
> Well, I like to type music and celebrities, and fictional characters, I agree you might not be able to come to an absolute correct type for an artist, but I do think it's possible to come up with a good guess. I would say that there might be a difference between a person as an artist and a person as a person, and a person as an artist has communicated via their art, not for the purpose of discovering Enneagram type oc but I they've provided information, think it should be fine to look at that information and make judgements about it.


The issue is that it's still just a guess in the end and I've seen people take those very seriously, saying that this person/character is x type so relating to them or not means something about your own type, which makes things difficult. I guess personally, I think it's best to focus on the person who's looking for their type. I definitely agree that there's often a big gap between the individual and the public face - and it's not always intentional. Sometimes it's just the fact that they're on particular shows or with particular interviewers, which results in a particular angle being focused on. It's fine to look at the information, I just also think it's very important to be aware of the pitfalls.



mistakenforstranger said:


> Isn't it all interpretative, though? I really don't see a difference between typing a song or typing a person online here. Everyone here is interpreting whatever "thing" is in question, whether that be a person, song, book, etc. using their knowledge of Enneagram. I also think songs can at least be somewhat helpful as a way of showing how a certain type manifests by taking things from the realm of theory, and often a lot of conjecture, and applying it to a real-life example, or a person saying they relate to a song/character as a way of showing a facet of themselves that would perhaps be harder to put into words if asked, "What are your fears and motivations? Talk about yourself." It's so open-ended and vague, like where do you even begin, but maybe some people are okay with discussing themselves in that way too. One doesn't have to type a person completely on the basis of one's relation to a certain "thing", but I don't think it's completely irrelevant and can even add some "objectivity" to the process by stepping outside one's self-interpretative lens.


Yes, but here it's possible to discuss things with the person. You can't hold a discussion with a song. If someone thinks your interpretation is wrong, they'll say so and then discussion can continue about why and how it's wrong, then what alternatives may be. Like I said before, I haven't said 'don't do it', I'm pointing out the issues with it. If I ask someone about motivations and fears and they say that's too vague then, because I'm in a dialogue with them, I can try a different approach.



> I don't really see why we can't accurately type the artist, or at the very least, the image we have of the artist, without having a discussion with them. There's interviews, biographies to read, songs to listen to, quotes, etc, and I think you can easily get a general sense of a person from that and which particular type patterns they show. In fact, we may even have a better assessment of these people's types, since they are presumably unaware of Enneagram and there is no pressure of being "typed" that would possibly influence their behavior, unlike here where everyone on some level knows what characteristics link to what type. I find it funny how this line of reasoning that it's impossible to type someone is never used when say for example Johnny Depp or Marilyn Manson are brought up as Type 4 examples, because no one disagrees with it, but the minute there's disagreement about a celebrity's type, then people say we can't type anyone completely or accurately, everything is up to one's own interpretation...:dry: I can see why it doesn't lead anywhere when it comes to that, and why it's unproductive in this thread (though, this is a rather unproductive thread overall, let's be honest haha), but I just find the process of typing celebrities/songs/characters fun and interesting too! :tongue:
> 
> Here's the only celebrity who I've found is aware of Enneagram talking about it and her type in an interview, which is kind of cool!


The issue is not knowing and not being able to know those people. It's typing off something said in an interview (a very particular context) or off behaviour, which isn't greatly accurate. Sure, it's fun and interesting. The issue is when it's being used to type people here.

This is the last I'm saying on the subject.


----------



## Greyhart

Immolate said:


> *Greyhart* How does it feel to switch from T God to F God? You're too other-dimensional to respond in my taste but I keep trying.


Feel great. I'm deep like a large intestine now.


----------



## Dangerose

@star tripper actually I have nothing to say (I never do...) but thanks so much for that post, it helps me so much to hear the commentary and analysis of someone who knows and is passionate about the music, you always talk about things in such an insightful and interesting way (

(sorry for such an irritating paragraph, trying to make up for not having anything substantial to say, really do appreciate these posts!)

Anyways, I can definitely hear and see (especially in that first video) such a dazzling force of energy, definitely see the sx, very devouring and brilliant energy

And well thanks for all the explanations, feel like I have more of a toe in the door


----------



## d e c a d e n t

nep2une said:


> Well, I guess music taste might reflect either who you are and what you relate to - or what fascinates you, what you are not but wish you could be, what you might dislike but nonetheless be drawn to as much as you are repelled, perhaps your "shadow side".


Yeah, I don't actually relate to most of the music I listen to, at least not directly. So it's also more in the "fascination" or "attraction" category for me, though that in itself is revealing in a way, so sometimes I can be hesitant to mention something I like in case someone makes a connection I don't want them to make, though a lot of the time I'm rather compelled to talk about the things I'm into as well. 

(Even wrote some more stuff yesterday, but decided not to post it. But then my thoughts are incomplete still anyway =P)

Also I use the @[name] to mention someone. 



star tripper said:


> Complete side note vaguely related to what @*Nissa Nissa* and @*Remnants* said, but I also think the way we see music and type it could be reflective of type. Like it might say something if you connect x to y or ascribe a to b. Like sometimes when I see @*Animal* 's reasonings for typings, there's just a ton of 4-style self-referencing. Or Nissa Nissa's Ne-style explosive posts. It's not strong evidence or anything but it is amusing to see where we naturally trail left to our own devices, innit.


Yes, it's interesting how much someone can give away just in the way they approach things. 

So which Evanescence song led you to an understanding of type 6

(Wanted to preview this, but the damned thing won't work again.)


----------



## nep2une

Ocean Helm said:


> Now that Marilyn Manson has been brought up, I do have some questions about his legitimacy as a 4. Part of the criticism I always see thrown his way is that he is "fake", "inauthentic", "just an attention seeker", etc. If this is in fact the case and the whole Marilyn Manson™ image is ultimately just performance art for some other motivation than self-expression, or a focus on self-individuality, then why is he seen as a token 4, or is this allowed if you say that he has strong social instinct?
> 
> Are we just sort of suspending disbelief when it comes to what we see, and saying "okay, Marilyn Manson™ is a 4, who cares about the person born as Brian Hugh Warner?" Or is there something intrinsic about the actual concrete actions that he does that mean he can be nothing except 4?
> 
> I really don't want this to turn into talking about celebrities, but when I see him treated as a canon 4 it makes me feel like I'm missing something when I don't even see anyone playing devil's advocate against the idea.


Reminds me of a lot of criticism that used to get thrown at Lana del Rey. There was all this hubbub for the first few years of her fame over if she was authentic or not, if she had been manufactured, if her dad had bought her her career. 

Could this be a 4w3 thing? I'm not very familiar with Manson. From my shallow googling what I saw first was him getting typed as a 4w5 but. . .


----------



## Cacaia

ElectricSlime said:


> It's not consent, it's a request.
> 
> It would help if we knew what you typed as, and if you could talk about yourself a bit and stuff.


I think I am a ENFJ. More solid now than when I first joined. A bit about myself:

1-As a child I always had 1-3 very close friends. Always wanted to be part of the "cool kids" club, but disliked what they did to get attention. They were not being very true to themselves.

2-Though I can handle spontaneous decisions quite well, when I have something planned with people and they change it on me an hour before we are due to meet/ go out, it really gets me irritated for a few minutes (or the whole day, depending).

3-I LOVE it when people come to me for advice! If they go to someone else, or don't make a lot of eye contact with me, I feel hurt.

4-As a child, I felt love for all animals. I remember going fishing with my family and being the only one to catch a fish. My parents were going to kill it to show us its organs, but I saw it moving and struggling to breathe, and I screamed and cried, imploring them to please let the fish go.They did, thank goodness. It has always been like this with me and animals. I just can't stand seeing an animal in pain, or seeing it die.

5-I always thought I wanted to teach college level art or languages. Until I subbed for a Kindergarten class and just fell in love with that age group- I remember thinking, "these little ones are so trusting and sweet. They have such a wonderful way to see the world. If I taught Kindergarteners every day, I would be the happiest person in the world!"


----------



## nep2une

Cacaia said:


> I think I am a ENFJ. More solid now than when I first joined. A bit about myself:
> 
> 1-As a child I always had 1-3 very close friends. Always wanted to be part of the "cool kids" club, but disliked what they did to get attention. They were not being very true to themselves.
> 
> 2-Though I can handle spontaneous decisions quite well, when I have something planned with people and they change it on me an hour before we are due to meet/ go out, it really gets me irritated for a few minutes (or the whole day, depending).
> 
> 3-I LOVE it when people come to me for advice! If they go to someone else, or don't make a lot of eye contact with me, I feel hurt.
> 
> 4-As a child, I felt love for all animals. I remember going fishing with my family and being the only one to catch a fish. My parents were going to kill it to show us its organs, but I saw it moving and struggling to breathe, and I screamed and cried, imploring them to please let the fish go.They did, thank goodness. It has always been like this with me and animals. I just can't stand seeing an animal in pain, or seeing it die.
> 
> 5-I always thought I wanted to teach college level art or languages. Until I subbed for a Kindergarten class and just fell in love with that age group- I remember thinking, "these little ones are so trusting and sweet. They have such a wonderful way to see the world. If I taught Kindergarteners every day, I would be the happiest person in the world!"


Are you sure you're an ENFJ? As much as I'd like to have a few more around here (I type myself as that, too), my first impression of you here is giving me pause. I know from looking into your post history that you've considered ENFP, which was my first impression. Have you considered ESFJ? Asking because I feel like people forget that type even exists sometimes.

Also, someone's probably going to say you sound like a 2.


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> Also, someone's probably going to say you sound like a 2.


That would be me lol. It's a bit light to make a firm conclusion, but that's what I'm leaning towards. I guess 9 is possible, but that might simply be the Kenshin avatar throwing me off.

And I think her post reeks of Fi actually, if anything the average ENFJ probably is part of the "cool group that aren't being true to themselves" she speaks of.


----------



## Ocean Helm

nep2une said:


> Reminds me of a lot of criticism that used to get thrown at Lana del Rey. There was all this hubbub for the first few years of her fame over if she was authentic or not, if she had been manufactured, if her dad had bought her her career.
> 
> Could this be a 4w3 thing? I'm not very familiar with Manson. From my shallow googling what I saw first was him getting typed as a 4w5 but. . .


I don't know why wing considerations should influence what we see a person's core as. So imagine someone like MM is in fact not very motivated by what we look at as 4 concerns - which at least from my perspective of admittedly limited knowledge seems possible - doesn't this mean that he wouldn't be a 4? I really would like to see other perspectives on this, not so much for answering the question "what is MM's type?" but more just to piece together what a 4 actually is, and what defines someone as a 4. Yes, someone like MM or Lana would seem 4 on the surface, but isn't what is beneath the surface what ultimately matters? Yet it seems like Enneagram Institute is insistent on typing celebrities on superficial notions. And this makes me sort of rule out 4 as my best-fit type if it is to factor into the typing process, even though internally I relate a lot to 4 notions.


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> And I think her post reeks of Fi actually, if anything the average ENFJ probably is part of the "cool group that aren't being true to themselves" she speaks of.


I am inclined to say you are maybe being a bit stereotypical and western culture in general has a huge hard-on for individualism so westerners would tend to despise the idea of not being true to themselves or they would at least know that they have to project an image of individuality for the sake of not going against what their culture values so highly...

... but then at the same time, yes, I guess it is possible. Particularly for unhealthy ENFJs or I guess those at average health can slip into it as well. I know I've seen a few public figures that I've thought were that type seem to sell themselves out. And obviously, I must fit into the second group I mentioned above that nearly breaks themselves into a sweat trying not to accidentally bleat instead of saying, "Hello, fellow individualists! Hello, fellow nonconformists!" My existence in western society is obviously constant pain. 

But anyway, being serious now... Me being the little special snowflake ENFJ that I am, I can't say my own experience was being part of the cool kids group who weren't being themselves. They were far too intimidating for someone as shy as me to be around. So I was instead around the people who were the least intimidating, the weird and nerdy kids. Which proved to be pretty unsatisfying and unfulfilling to me. So in a way, I guess I was a part of a group where I wasn't truly being myself. 

I also had a 4ish image back then. I was known as the "artsy" kid who dressed uniquely. Meanwhile, I for the most part was never being creative in my spare time in private. I'd have to convince myself I was artistic because what I'd really be feeling was indifference. But then when a friend got me to take part in a poetry club with them, I was suddenly able to find motivation to write because I knew I was in an environment where I could outwrite everyone in the room.

(outwriting a group of high school students isn't a big accomplishment, btw)

Also just for the sake of my own amusement, I'm going to bring up what my thought process was for picking out an outfit for an open house for a college I'm going to go to that I feel shows the 4w3/3w4 in me as well:

'Okay so I need to look well-dressed and well put-together... but I also need to wear this dark blue lipstick that goes with this shirt so I can subtly stand out.'


----------



## Paradigm

@nep2une, @ElectricSlime 

You guys are giving me flashbacks to an unhealthy xNFJ 2w1 I used to know >_< He'd undoubtedly type at 4 (and prob 4w5/459 to boot) if he bothered, but the guy was cringingly far too much of a White Knight to pull it off. Was all about that New Age, individuality stuff, too. Ranted about populists and sheeple, but usually ended up doing the same things they did.

To be fair, we were teenagers, and I was guilty of half of it myself. He just never seemed to grow out of it.


----------



## Cacaia

nep2une said:


> I am inclined to say you are maybe being a bit stereotypical and western culture in general has a huge hard-on for individualism so westerners would tend to despise the idea of not being true to themselves or they would at least know that they have to project an image of individuality for the sake of not going against what their culture values so highly...
> 
> ... but then at the same time, yes, I guess it is possible. Particularly for unhealthy ENFJs or I guess those at average health can slip into it as well. I know I've seen a few public figures that I've thought were that type seem to sell themselves out. And obviously, I must fit into the second group I mentioned above that nearly breaks themselves into a sweat trying not to accidentally bleat instead of saying, "Hello, fellow individualists! Hello, fellow nonconformists!" My existence in western society is obviously constant pain.
> 
> But anyway, being serious now... Me being the little special snowflake ENFJ that I am, I can't say my own experience was being part of the cool kids group who weren't being themselves. They were far too intimidating for someone as shy as me to be around. So I was instead around the people who were the least intimidating, the weird and nerdy kids. Which proved to be pretty unsatisfying and unfulfilling to me. So in a way, I guess I was a part of a group where I wasn't truly being myself.
> 
> I also had a 4ish image back then. I was known as the "artsy" kid who dressed uniquely. Meanwhile, I for the most part was never being creative in my spare time in private. I'd have to convince myself I was artistic because what I'd really be feeling was indifference. But then when a friend got me to take part in a poetry club with them, I was suddenly able to find motivation to write because I knew I was in an environment where I could outwrite everyone in the room.
> 
> (outwriting a group of high school students isn't a big accomplishment, btw)
> 
> Also just for the sake of my own amusement, I'm going to bring up what my thought process was for picking out an outfit for an open house for a college I'm going to go to that I feel shows the 4w3/3w4 in me as well:
> 
> 'Okay so I need to look well-dressed and well put-together... but I also need to wear this dark blue lipstick that goes with this shirt so I can subtly stand out.'


Man, oh, man, we probably would be good friends if we went to high school together 
But about the "cool kids", I think you nailed it- I thought they were just too immature, cared about things that were (back then) below me. But I wanted to be liked. I was a bit shy to go and talk to them, though it probably would have been fine.


----------



## Lunacik

@Paradigm cute cat.


----------



## Animal

@*Paradigm* is right that this thread is derailed by this conversation, so I'll make a new thread to continue and answer this - how about this one?

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ional-characters-each-other.html#post40963914

That said, I don't like being misrepresented (although I blame myself, not anyone else)... so I just need to clear something up. I am going to clear this up here, but .. if anyone wants to respond, you can do so in the other thread 




star tripper said:


> It's so seedy, so sleazy. You're literally living off of the strippers you're fucking, living in a concrete studio space. Everyone is jonesing, hopping from dick to dick, on a first name basis with the police. Weirdly enough, the people at my old work lived like rock stars.





nep2une said:


> I have a fascination with that kind of lifestyle, too. But not as something to participate in, more as something to observe or read in a book or watch in a movie or listen to in a song. I don't even drink (both of my parents are former addicts so I figure it's best not to).





Nissa Nissa said:


> (That lifestyle sounds horrible to me tbh, can't imagine it)
> 
> Like I read those paragraphs ^ and I just remember being like 7 at slumber parties and kinda having fun or wanting to think I was having fun but also really wanting to go home and read and have.space.to.think and not have all these _people_ around





nep2une said:


> Well, it _is_ extreme and not exactly the kind of lifestyle that would generally be recommended or that I would recommend. And at least some parts of it are hazardous to health - like the drugs. I'm not currently looking at the post again so I can't remember what else might be hazardous, maybe just the drugs. It's not unreasonable at all to say, "God, that sounds horrible!"





Remnants said:


> Don't know what to think of that type of thing in particular. I mean I doubt I could handle it lol (like, I managed to take the subway on my own today, and that's quite a big deal for me, also I _do_ have self-preservation lol), but...
> 
> Idk, it reminds me of something I was thinking about earlier, how I do find myself having some "Se-envy" with some things, despite not even valuing Se. Hard to put into words, but something about how living life and seizing the moment as if the world is in your grasp, even if it's self-destructive and stuff, seems arousing in a way.



I was really into one guy who pulled me into this scene. Obsessed to the nth degree. I wrote my own music about this after I moved away subsequently.

Most of the time I keep to myself and my art - in fact I've always been a huge loner - but I follow my heart(obsession) to the ends of the Earth when it's that strong. Usually I don't join other people's bands, let alone cover bands.. I play my own music or none. I'm very much a visionary, and don't like being around people unless my own vision is strong enough to run a band, and even then, I would go home after my own shows. 

But .. I was obsessed with this man, and we had tremendous musical chemistry. I had actually given up doing music in public because I'd lost my voice several years before, but he lured me to play again, which served as the jumping off point for me moving away (heartbroken) and starting my own band, doing my music.

Most of my own drug use involved LSD, before this period, which I did completely alone for spiritual reasons. I was a very light drinker compared to the rest. In fact, outside this 3-year period, I've never been drunk. Since I left that scene in 2006, I've probably had a total of 10 drinks, like at dinner with family.. not even kidding. And I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. To put this in perspective, by the time I was 23 I had _never stepped inside of a bar, been drunk or smoked a cigarette_, but I had tripped on acid 46 times. 




* *





Compared to some of the really " arousing" fun I've had, to use @*Remnant*'s words, such as painting myself nude with a friend in a forest; hijacking a canoe at night; climbing fences and mountains at 3am to get photographs; using drumsticks to play an industrial park at night until the cops came; having sex on the edge of a mountain; running through a swamp with my best friend to get away from the police, though we still can't remember why :blushed:..... drinking in a bar just isn't that interesting to me. With the kind of life I've had, I would not even set foot in something as dull as a bar unless I was playing a show or chasing a REALLY special man.


 

It's weird how I'm incredibly wild in the sense that I'll do ANYTHING toward my 'purpose,' vision or obsession - but at the same time I don't like "reckless fun" or pointless drugs. Only the ones that I use in a very specific way toward the purpose of spiritual growth; and that's something I do alone with my art, or with a very special loved one. During the GNR cover band time, drinking was a little bit more attractive because of the whole scene, but I still rarely exceeded 2-3 drinks (which was enough to get me woozy, much to the band's amusement), and only on weekends, whereas the rest did this all day and night, all week, etc.

I just didn't want to represent myself as some drunk bitch fucking male prostitutes. That has literally never happened. I've never even managed to have a one night stand - although I did try during that time, but I'm too intense and tend to draw deeper attention to myself.

The scene WAS exactly like I described and I definitely participated. I had a hot tub where we would all hang out naked.. I was definitely in the middle of it. But I was heavily focused on one guy and he was the reason I was hanging out there; I'm the type to get drunk and fuck randos. Oddly enough, women I knew around town used me to get "close" to the guys on the scene, whereas I, right in the middle of it, was closer to 'one of the guys' (aside from my obsession with the one guy)... and I was undergoing a big personal reawakening when it came to my own inner conflict about music - which was my lifelong passion - after having lost my voice. The wildness was like background noise- albeit very interesting colorful noise - but really, I was trying to come to terms with my feelings for this guy, and for what he represented for me (my lost voice; my lost hope)... and with myself as an artist, a woman, a human.


----------



## Cacaia

nep2une said:


> Are you sure you're an ENFJ? As much as I'd like to have a few more around here (I type myself as that, too), my first impression of you here is giving me pause. I know from looking into your post history that you've considered ENFP, which was my first impression. Have you considered ESFJ? Asking because I feel like people forget that type even exists sometimes.
> 
> Also, someone's probably going to say you sound like a 2.


I am definitely a 2. I wasn't sure for the longest time about ENFP or ENFJ. There were little things that didn't fit the ENFP profile the more I read about it. This year I started digging into my cognitive functions, dissecting them, really.... maybe, as has been suggested, I am a bit of an unhealthy ENFJ? I thought about checking out INFJ too...


----------



## Paradigm

RGBCMYK said:


> @Paradigm cute cat.


Thanks! One of my fave avatars because it looks very similar to my own cat :laughing: I harbor a "crazy cat lady" inside me waiting to burst out one day. (I have only one cat. I'd like more.)


----------



## Greyhart

Cacaia said:


> I am definitely a 2. I wasn't sure for the longest time about ENFP or ENFJ. There were little things that didn't fit the ENFP profile the more I read about it. This year I started digging into my cognitive functions, dissecting them, really.... maybe, as has been suggested, I am a bit of an unhealthy ENFJ? I thought about checking out INFJ too...


It's more of that _nothing_ you've said has anything specific to ENFJ. Just some general info that doesn't mean anything one way or another except that you are most likely not a T type.


----------



## Cacaia

Greyhart said:


> It's more of that _nothing_ you've said has anything specific to ENFJ. Just some general info that doesn't mean anything one way or another except that you are most likely not a T type.


Oh. Ok.  Well, I don't know what exactly to say, soooo.....i'll see you all around in other posts, yeah??


----------



## Greyhart

Cacaia said:


> Oh. Ok.  Well, I don't know what exactly to say, soooo.....i'll see you all around in other posts, yeah??


If you want to get typed you need to go deeper and wider, and give details. Lots. Since most people here type by functions not by letters. That's what I meant.


----------



## Krayfish

Hey there, based off how I come across on the forums, do I seem more like a 3-fixer or a 2-fixer (probably between 2w1 and 3w2, although I guess 2w3 and 3w4 are possible)? I'm almost certain my heart fix isn't 4 at this point, but I can see bits and pieces of myself in both 3 and 2 (3 through motivations, 2 through behavior).


----------



## Wisteria

Anyone think I'm mistyped? :tongue: (164 is a possible tri type)

haven't been on this forum much yet so no ideas about mistypes. Just subscribing to this thread for now.


----------



## knife

So as I was riding the train to work last night, I found myself wondering ... Maybe the reason I haven't been able to secure my own security (heh) even after all these years is because I'm actually really bad at it. Because I'm trying to work into my blind spot. I definitely feel a sense of validation when people praise me for work I've done. It feeds me and charges me, gives me a dynamo inside.

5 and So famously get along like oil and water, and while I'm dubious I'm an So-dom, it definitely strikes me that a combination of being a 5 and having a family history that has made it a struggle for me to maintain a social life all my life (also heh) might well be giving me a warped perception of myself and also might well explain why others can't see past my Sx. Like I'm naturally Sx/So but I keep _acting_ like I'm Sx/Sp even though it manifestly isn't working simply because the alternative feels unfamiliar and therefore foreign ...

What do you think @Nissa Nissa. (Also why name yourself after somebody who got stabbed in the heart? Lol)


----------



## Cacaia

Cacaia said:


> Oh. Ok.  Well, I don't know what exactly to say, soooo.....i'll see you all around in other posts, yeah??


Whoa. I thought I was done posting here, until I saw Nep2ne's post at the ENFJ forum....Therein is this:

"3. What was innate and strong in me however, despite social anxiety, was Fe. I once was told in the past that despite me being shy, never getting out of the house, I had good communication skills. I naturally seemed to understand people. I'm not actually that socially awkward once I get to talking and I've never truly related to the concept of social awkwardness.

4. The fact that I wasn't sure for a time if I was a sensor or intuitive makes sense with having them side-by-side as auxiliary and tertiary.

5. I see morality as being more of an objective thing. It is so crystal clear to me if something is right or wrong and I can't see any other answer but that. An ESFJ might be a bit less rigid than this... or someone else who calls themselves an ENFJ might just disagree with me on this. Either way, I am aware maybe I shouldn't feel so sure - but I still do. Even if I might not voice it. I feel like Fe might help me keep this toned down and not so obvious and obnoxious. I'm aware of how people like that can be viewed, I'm aware it might be wrong to be like that, I'm influenced by this knowledge to keep it toned down.

6. I base morality on potential external consequences, the possibility of someone innocent and undeserving eventually getting hurt. Sometimes I have trouble with differing opinions not simply because they're differing, but because I'm afraid of negative consequences as a result. Like a butterfly flapping its wings and causing a hurricane."

This. *So* this. That is how I think as well. And then the doubt about ENFP and ENFJ, going back and forth for so long...I like stability and I never really get "bored" and move on to something new...I like to perfect what I already started to learn. Also, I absolutely HATE to change plans, or to break routine (weekends, vacation, traveling). The process of change just makes me antsy. Dunno. *Shrug*.
I considered ESFJ, but I feel I don't quite fit in with a lot of tradition???? I like tradition, but not how society places it? I feel like we need to act as examples of what we want society to be, and therefore inspire others to follow suit??? (Like, in just my opinion only, I feel women shouldn't just stay at home and be housewives if they don't want to do that. They shouldn't accept this role just because they're female and have kids. Likewise, men shouldn't feel like they are supposed to be the only breadwinner. People in our society, and in my opinion, should do what they do best, but not be limited by gender roles-they should use their strengths to balance each other. 
Ok, now I'm done (I think) ;-)


----------



## Tad Cooper

ElectricSlime said:


> @*Tad Cooper*
> 
> The 6 portion is distinctively 6ish (and accessorily 9ish), no living 8 would say that, at all. I'm not trying to paint a picture of Eights as superhumans here, they _can_ get insecure (about being fat for example), but one thing they don't doubt, even at lower health, is their abilities and drive to take charge and responsibility, for themselves AND others as long as they don't have a negative disposition for said others. I've said before that my main beef with core 8s was that a lot of them came across to me as big babies who felt control and charge were born in their lap and couldn't even conceive the fact that they weren't as qualified as they thought they were for the job, hence throwing a tantrum when people offered resistance. Healthy and competent 8s are pretty awesome though, it's just too bad a fucktard 8 is harder to get rid of than a fucktard 9 or 5. And I totally own up to the fact that 8 is very much part of my tritype lol. Anyways, I think it's the easiest one to rule out as core. Eights have no need for reassurance (actually that's a lie, but they think they don't) It might be your fix (though I'd look into 9w8) but I'm positive it's not your core.
> 
> On 7: Nothing to dig in, those are some pretty superficial traits, I'm guessing the fact that you didn't expand that much further means that's as far as it goes to you. Though I'm thinking that if you are a 6, you'd be 6w7.
> 
> On the 3 bits: I relate to what you said. The way you put it though, it doesn't sound like it's a particular neurosis of yours. As if, if your core type and fear is an ocean you're trying to brave, the way you describe 3 would be like taking an occasional dip in some pond yes ?
> 
> I think what Sina says in that thread: http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-f...-treated-unfairly-enneagram-descriptions.html
> 
> and what unefille says generally in this one: Dislike of Enneagram type 3
> 
> are an excellent insight into the Three mindset. As Naranjo says, there's a marketing orientation to E3 (and from what I've seen, a certain craftsmanship of the self among 3w4s), reframing of bad traits into a positive or even admirable light, a calculated, smooth, sometimes plastic-like façade. Does that speak to you anyhow ? I'm guessing it seems like a degree of self-consciousness and image concern alien to you ? :wink:
> 
> I'm willing to go deeper about E6, but I'd like to hear whether you have any disagreements with what I've written here so far so we don't end up juggling with too many walls of text about various types.


Ah yeah, I always find 8 has this inner confidence that's foreign to me - they seem happy to take over and do things, whereas I tend to reluctantly take charge when I have to/when I feel I'm the only one capable of doing the job right/in time. I do relate to the need for personal control, but dont want to put it onto others without good reason i.e. theyre affecting me.

With 7, yeah there's not much to add. I used to be anxious about missing out on activities, but it was more to do with worrying people weren't inviting me because of something I did rather than missing out on the experience.

3...I really dont like completely failing at something, especially when I have to tell people about the failure. I think it's not my main concern, neither is it to impress people, but I seem to end up doing that by i.e. talking about stuff I've done and them finding it really interesting (I've just done a lot of odd things). People also see me very differently from how I feel - some people have said I seem very focused and in control and I'm really, really not!

I don't really disagree with you on your points, but maybe just a bit different, like the 3 points. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on 6!


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> Anyone think I'm mistyped? :tongue: (164 is a possible tri type)
> 
> haven't been on this forum much yet so no ideas about mistypes. Just subscribing to this thread for now.


For some reason you struck me as a possible core 4, but I'm not sure why! I do think 1/6/4 tritype though.


----------



## owlet

@Tad Cooper just out of the blue, but what would you think about type 2?


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> The obvious I noticed is that most people are very attached to their ways of life, and that most people get that way of life from what society conditions them to do. They live without questioning things too much and the worst of them actually take pride in willful ignorance (like my sister, and all the people she hangs with). I know, seems arrogant and over assuming, but it's what I keep seeing around me. Doesn't stop a portion of them to be great and kind people, but still. That's especially frustrating when one wants to ask questions, inquire and find comfort in his peers. The biggest problem is when those people start sanctioning those that don't subscribe to that conformist mindset and stand out too much through their iconoclastic attitude. Worst even, is those that get put down and have their wings clipped by the masses because they dare to put into question things and make their ideas known, or simply stand against the circlejerk. Start having success and people will envy and try to destroy you through guilt tripping and social shaming to silence you into humbleness. We don't like people that take too much place and don't adhere to our level of ordinariness, it's the slave morality vs master dichotomy I'm reaching at here. People are quick to get offended, and minorities of all kinds, with their own agenda, quick to take advantage of that fact to make you feel guilty and leech power off of you. The whole triggered SJW band and some Muslim groups exemplify this perfectly. All a silly subtle power dynamic that keeps society's attention and paints itself as a tragedy, while there are bigger fishes to catch (fiscal competition for one). And yet all these morals, all these current "righteous" opinions, are really just a bunch of relative crap that people had their environment drill into their brain through guilt or desire for social inclusion.


Finally, I see 6 
(Reminds me, by chance I was watching a bunch of shows from 15/20 years ago as well as modern things with much of the _same people_ involved and was very struck (as I'm often struck) at how people were making jokes and stating opinions that they would never say today, I'm often surprised at how _quickly_ the tide of popular opinion creates new taboos and norms and it can be like people forget that they used to think in a different way, like that thing in 1984 'we were always at war with (don't remember the names)', that's as far as my analysis goes but it is interesting (of course opinions change but I'm talking about everyone's opinion changing en masse))
(though I imagine that particular phenomenon has a lot to do with the Internet)



> And while it's especially true of the circus we're living in right now, it hasn't been all that different throughout history. Humanity has always tried to establish their way as the best way and has always punished those that deviated from those ways, even if they were the ones standing on top just a few centuries ago.
> 
> So Nietzsche's Will to Power and his Ubermensch concept is quite appealing. Rise above the herd instinct and mentality that dominated mankind for as long as it has existed, find yourself, create your own values disconnected from societal pressures and norms and transcend the sort of life you were doomed into to reach a superior stage of existence. Not even for the sake of the afterlife or any other concept that requires suspension of disbelief, but simply for yourself. It's not even circumstantial, but timeless, as it could apply to anyone from any era. "Whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" simply rationalizes away the pain you'll endure going through that process.. The finest steel has to be tampered through the hottest fiery pits of Hell, after all.
> 
> And that's where the problem brought up by Dostoevsky comes in. If morality is subjective and relative, and we are to seek our own, any piece of trash who has no problem committing harm upon another for his own benefit, technically shouldn't be reprimanded. It's the law of nature after all, how animals in freedom operate. And yet... It doesn't sit right with me. But if I backpedal and state that it's still a valid point of view EXCEPT for X and Y values that in my opinions are necessary, then I'm just imposing my own subjectivity upon the world and declaring my opinion is the right one which defeats the purpose of the philosophy in the first place... As such, doing so is recognizing that I'm no different from those asshats that want their own pronoun specifically tailored for their "attack helicopter" gender...
> 
> So yeah, fucking sucks. I still don't have an answer for this one. Dosto and Kierkegaard would simply say "embrace the Touch of God and free yourself from those doubts born out of logical contradiction and a submission to your conscience". I don't have what it takes for that leap of faith unfortunately. I guess my attraction to Nietzsche was/is due to him being a fellow edgelord of that fight.


Ok, intriguing! 
I understand enough to understand but not enough to add anything lol, not generally the sort of thing I think about tbh



owlet said:


> SP level is zero, so probably SP-last. How do you feel about so/sx as your stack possibly?


:laughing:

Well, I tend to think so (about sp level being last) but I often then feel like, no, I do have some sp, I de-emphasize it, I'm giving myself too much credit (but I guess everyone has some of every instinct
Like I would love to see myself as some spiritual creature of light or hardened warrior that does not need to touch the earth for sustenance and weathers the fiercest storms with no more concern than were there a fleck of dust on my sleeve, but in reality it's not just that I'm mortal, it's that I end up being led by the nose by my sleep schedule, spending all my money on food and never losing weight, coming inside because my toes are cold, also get really upset suddenly when something sp-ish goes wrong, like if the shower water is lukewarm or something or I'm out of soup it feels like my life has just been RUINED, I can be petty normally but not like that

Anyways I _instinctively_ feel (laugh with me) I'm sp-last and that ^ could be 1D Si sort of things, or Si base???
About so/sx, that's what I go to as my 'standard' but it never feels that convincing...I'm not really sure why I'd be social-first tbh even though people tend to see it...I think I'm definitely not social-last but I always thought it belonged best in the middle, it's definitely there and influences me to some extent but it doesn't feel like a neurosis or a blindspot. People who are social-first tend to have something that feels foreign and boring and strange to me, tend to be a little annoyed when people suddenly bring some social thing into something (I don't know, I'm so unintellectual, but it's like...often feels like people are marching around trying to ruin perfectly lovely stories and songs and whatever with social messages, not that I ALWAYS dislike that but it can boggle my mind that people can care so consistently about things that seem of such little weight to me

Like I've been reading a lot of Thomas Hardy lately (socially conscious(?) in-depth portrayals of rural life and a cynical romances), first time in my life I've had the strength of mind to do that horrible boring thing and today I realized, 'oh, Tess d'Urberville wasn't just a slightly annoying symbol of Woman being sacrificed by society but also the rural way of life being sacrificed to the urban', it was even a bit touching but goddamnit it wasn't worth 10 hours...and other people seem to get more out of that kind of thing than I do, there's just TV shows and such that I watch and think kinda 'this would be interesting to me if I had more social' 

I'm just so different from the people who enjoy Thomas Hardy, was talking to a lady who was like 'I remember just tearing through all his books as a girl', it was bizarre to me, also inspiring, never imagined people actually enjoying them...however I want to like him, everything, because I want a rounded out version of the world, I want to live every experience I can have and appreciate everything people appreciate in things, I see the world as like a tree with all kinds of fruit hanging from the branches, don't want to die without experiencing, appreciating and enjoying all the fruit, which does seem social

Though this kind of thing is very moving for me:






And I've been noticing that I do a lot of social things in my writing, sort-of, it tends to feel childish and like I'm making things up though, but actually I feel like my different stories end up with really different instinctual stackings and I get caught up with the one I'm currently focusing on (current one feels so/sx, but the one in the same series, almost same characters, felt really sp/so, so idek)

ANYWAYS, general vibe of so/sx doesn't feel right because so/sx feels like...the Golden Retriever instinct stacking, or the fascinating dissembler, where I have more of a stunted, stupid, held-back energy (which is one reason for higher sp?) I don't engage and hook, I hide back in the shadows and then hook, I guess in many ways I am more similar to a cat or fox, something like sp/sx would feel better for my type of energy and such though I really don't think I'm so-last in any case

sx-first...I don't know, it makes sense internally but same holds for the above ^ I'm very much not a firework, for example Axl Rose was in discussion and that kind of energy is very far from what I am, sx/so literally makes the most sense which is why I have it in my signature because...I feel neurotic about sx, neutral about so, blindish about sp, but it doesn't feel right in that...I'm nothing like a sx/so, I also don't understand the 'display' thing about sx (I'm not a peacock, I'm a human girl...)

And then sp/so, to me that's the alternative that makes the most sense, since I really think so should be middle, sx-last feels pretty strange because I feel like I'm comparitively more 'sexual' (not sure how to describe what I mean by this and this post is getting way too long) than other people I know, but I can see it, as noted I don't really get that 'display' thing and I'm not very...confident, I think I can be pretty...wooden, I'd also say I tend to idealize and obsess from afar maybe even as a replacement for actually facing sx-y things, though that's just a theory, sometimes occurs to me

And I've been for example been working gardening and living with people who live very simple lives, it's very interesting to me and I'm not sure how to explain it but I feel like there could be some sp/so commonality? or like that last story I was writing, had a culture where people grew their own food, picked a lot of herbs, were connected to the earth, talked about strength and vitality and such, seems spish and I think I could be anti-sp sp-ish?

Have more to say but I was intending to write just one paragraph



> As for Si, it's important to try and remove bias towards or away from it, as that can affect your focus. Try to look at your thought patterns in an objective way, if possible, to see what you're drawn to and what you largely focus on. I'd also recommend reading up on the dimensionality of the functions if you haven't (or haven't for a while) as it can be quite handy.


Thanks, good advice!



knife said:


> So as I was riding the train to work last night, I found myself wondering ... Maybe the reason I haven't been able to secure my own security (heh) even after all these years is because I'm actually really bad at it. Because I'm trying to work into my blind spot. I definitely feel a sense of validation when people praise me for work I've done. It feeds me and charges me, gives me a dynamo inside.
> 
> 5 and So famously get along like oil and water, and while I'm dubious I'm an So-dom, it definitely strikes me that a combination of being a 5 and having a family history that has made it a struggle for me to maintain a social life all my life (also heh) might well be giving me a warped perception of myself and also might well explain why others can't see past my Sx. Like I'm naturally Sx/So but I keep _acting_ like I'm Sx/Sp even though it manifestly isn't working simply because the alternative feels unfamiliar and therefore foreign ...


I have no great insight but this sounds like a good theory? though I wouldn't necessarily pin being unsuccessful in something as it being your blindspot, if that strikes home that's probably something?



> (Also why name yourself after somebody who got stabbed in the heart? Lol)


(Why name yourself after something that goes around stabbing things?)

I don't know, 2 sacrifice porn?)

It just felt right, really like that story and was reading a theory about the things it represented within the story (the destruction of the moon) and liked the symbology and the name kept sticking in my mind, just feels on-point


----------



## Wisteria

That Paramore song brings back memories  my favourite is probably this song:





 
(can't decide between this and "all I wanted")

Their songs seem like a combination of type 6 and 4(w3)


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> But I have very good pain tolerance :sad: always felt I was less affected by things like temperature and pain than other people(
> 
> Though come to think of it I do think there's something wrong with my sensory system, for example don't think I'm autistic/Asperger's but I've always noticed I have some similar things, I know I have some sort of hearing problem they didn't spot on the tests as well, and actually my pain tolerance can feel kinda too good that maybe something's wrong, guess in general it's like I'm very sensitive to certain things but unusually insensitive to other things, can't guess the pattern but there probably is something physical/mental there that's not type-related, thanks for bringing that up, I forget


Well, for example, I have very good pain tolerance (I've had procedures where the doctor was surprised I wasn't flinching), but I have extreme sensitivity to discomfort - like if I can feel a clothes label is on the back of my neck, I can find it difficult to concentrate, or sometimes TV at a normal volume will feel extremely loud. There's a thing where you can have sensory issues particularly when under stress, or just goes up and down at random, or some senses will be more sensitive than others. Basically, the body is weird. If any of the sensory issues cause stress though, it's important to accommodate them by i.e. buying special headphones to block out sounds.



> Hm, maybe not quite, I mean I don't usually think that cynically, though I guess it's similar to my problem, maybe more that I don't like things getting 'meta', for example I don't like the parts of novels/series when it's suddenly about an ethical issue and what should be done and judging a character on their choices and how they affect other people lol (rather than their inherent interest/drives) even annoys me when I do it in my own writing but I feel it's what's supposed to be done
> Not that I don't care about ethics or morals, it's a lot of what I talk about, but hm


I agree. When it becomes obvious the author is just saying their views on something, it becomes pretty annoying to read, because I'm there to read about the character and the world, so if they want to put messages in, it needs to fit. I generally love Dan Simmons' books, but he was guilty of that in Rise of Endymion and it ruined the book for me. Too preachy.



> There is one social issue I care about not really things addressed in media that I follow and wouldn't look for it, guess I could think about it enough that I can enjoy 'ooh that could be a metaphor for this' but I don't know, not that invested in politics in general that it feels quite hypothetical
> I mean, I'm touched by social things, Holocaust movies are upsetting to watch, stories about old ways of life passing away, a people losing their culture, etc. are sad to me, general tragedies and miscarriages of justice, or I remember watching on Game of Thrones a scene where this Roman army with their swords and shields in formation were trying to fight against dragon fire, made me tear up because they were doing the things that was expected of them and worked for generations but they were just obliterated, reminded me of you know islanders and native peoples (if that doesn't sound too condescending) meeting Western civilizations for the first time and being completely overpowered by firearms, how people can't fight against nuclear bombs and this kind of mass warfare we have nowadays, probably there are other things I'm forgetting


Ah yeah, I get what you mean. The sense of hopelessness in a struggle is depressing, purely because of the people still trying when there's no way there can be a positive outcome for them. Futility - that's the word. It's not so much necessarily like western colonialisation of places in particular, but all colonisation (for example, the Ainu people in Hokkaido were colonised by Japan in a similar way to England colonising Scotland or Wales) but yes, western colonisation is more widespread for sure.



> But the thing is, with social issues it all feels distant and irrelevant, you have to force yourself into an awareness that things exist and you know...I didn't really grow up connected to the outside, modern world, things I read in my books felt a lot more real than any things that grown-ups chatted about when they were being boring, Victorian or medieval or fantastical social issues were more on my mind than 20th/21st century ones, we did a little politics in school and a few acquaintances and I had a little informal debating/conversation club wherein I got the lay of the land a little better and formed my own opinions, but it's just not...I don't know, it doesn't make sense in my life than modern things would be more relevant than things from the past


Hmm, instead of social issues, how about your focus on things like being a part of something? Are you very keen on being 'a part' and contributing towards something like that?



> Hardy...well, I really want to fill in the gaps on my bookshelves, I mean I've always had lists of classics and such I need to read, I don't just want to read the things I like but to push through everything to find the part that is valuable, I remember reading this sentence from George Elliot for example:
> 
> really liked that turn of phrase, since I read that I always imagine I'm sort-of biting tastily through a husk to get through to the kernel...I don't like leaving parts of the world un-understood, or I at least want to know if I would like something, and appreciate it for what it is. I want to live a lot of lives before my own one ends, I want to span the breadth and depth of human experience and see life through many different lenses, and I don't think I could for example consider myself to have properly 'travelled' or understood the West Country (or late Victorian literature) without having taken in a lot of Wessex, it would just always be this itch of something I might have loved if I had tried, I want to know the soul of places, and when someone goes to the trouble of detailing every particular of a time and place they loved and knew, then it's on me to read it.
> 
> I think it's good for my character too, I want to be well-rounded, and I'm currently trying to counteract a part of my personality that is being sort-of addictive and...not sure how to explain, desperate I guess , with being rural and embracing simplicity and enduring activity, which is sorta in Hardy's wheelhouse
> 
> So -education -building character -experiencing life through many lenses, you probably wanted a shorter answer XD


How come you feel you 'need' to read the classics? This part you said sounded vaguely SO-focused to me:


> I want to span the breadth and depth of human experience


But it would depend on your motivation for doing so. What drives you towards that?
For me personally, I enjoy some classics (especially the ones by people like Wilkie Collins and H.G. Wells), but I don't feel obligated or like I need to read them - I actually never read any when I was younger, until I ran out of books and picked up the ones on my mum's bookshelf (and Wilkie Collins was a discovery from a Dan Simmons book called Drood, about Wilkie Collins and Charles Dickens - it's very good, I recommend it). I do try books to see if I like them, but classics are just old books and I don't like how especially English Lit courses can portray them as somehow more special than other books. I guess it seems unfair that they get that status due to their age to an extent.



> Well, I expanded out the first story (which was really following three people and very simple, they reclaimed their murdered father's throne) to have more characters from different societies and I'm trying to focus on the consequences they have on each other, one storyline is about a tribe of the people that were thrown off the throne in the first one and it's about leadership/rebuilding/revolution, another one is about court life and family politics I guess (though I'll cut it short and have something else but it'll still be social-ish), then one main character is learning extent of her power and trying to negotiate with the society that put her on the throne, another is going to a lot of places to find herself or whatever, just a lot of social themes, but it feels more so/sx than so/sp


Kind of about the impact of different social and cultural experiences? Do you find writing the characters with that awareness more enjoyable than, say, something less socially-focused? (I don't know that it is SO-focus, that would be more that you wanted your book to contribute something to the world or something, I think.) It sounds good! 



> Well, I am I think, it depends, I'm either really awkward or quite adept, think it depends on how much control I feel that I have...but that could cause the wooden blockiness, but I'm really just thinking of vibes, so many so/sxs feel so...like a warm fireplace, and I just have a different vibe


It can be difficult if you have that feeling of awkwardness or self-consciousness. I think a lot of people put forward as SO-first are often typed that way due to them being very 'involved' in social things, but an SO-first may contribute in a much more 'behind the scenes' kind of way (like writing a book with a heavy impact, or working in a computer-based job to contribute to i.e. the running of a server - so something which contributes towards their focus group, which might be all of their society, or just a family group, or a club etc.).



> Too true XD
> But yeah, that's something I'm always trying to figure out, feel like my view of it has gotten so distorted that I don't know where to begin
> 
> Ok, thanks for this explanation!
> (I actually like the feeling of being sick, lol, not that I seek it out but it's oddly comforting or... I don't know, think I just have a lot of good childhood experiences of being sick that now it feels like something special and worthwhile)


I find taking the 'extreme' descriptions and mellowing them to a more realistic level can help - like if SX is very focused on intense connections and being invigorated over SO (contributions, being a part of etc.) and SP (sustainability, security, health etc.), then they might be someone who stays up all night before a class because they got a video game they love. SX doesn't have to be edgy or 'big' or dramatic, it's an internal process.

I can kind of understand that - I have good memories of getting sick on Bonfire Night and staying in drinking soup and watching the fireworks from the window - although I would never want to be sick. I guess focus on the overall, so things like if you value having a level of physical security (in your body and materially).



> Thanks for your help; don't feel obliged to respond, I know I talk and talk...


It's no problem. I don't feel obligated to respond, but I want to.


----------



## Cacaia

Nissa Nissa said:


> This is really admirable but I don't really see anything type-related about it tbh
> 
> Are you invested in seeing yourself as a good person?
> 
> Can you relate or see yourself in any of these paragraphs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how do you make daily decisions in your life?


I try to do positive things, and the right thing, but I am not sure if this makes me a "good person". It depends on who you talk to, I guess. In my opinion, I WANT to be a good person. But then again, I think everybody does

I think some of the paragraphs resonate, though not fully. This resonates:
"The individual likes to predict the further development of the situations and topics that (s)he is interested in."
and,
"A typical manifestation is a lack of concern for small aesthetic details, since a greater focus is given on the opinion that, in the longer term, taking care of them is a never-ending exercise. "
Oh, boy. This is hard....
How do I make daily decisions? When it comes to people, always imagining the person's perspective of their world if possible before speaking. 
I think ahead: I have presents already brought for birthdays waaaaay ahead of time (like 6 months in advance or so)...I Can improvise, but prefer to have things planned during my day. I really don't care about new trends, etc, though I keep them in mind as an opening for conversation with someone. i often start statements like , "I feel like....however, if you feel like....we'll make it work." i value team work and I HATE competitive games, or showing off in myself or others??????
I often apologize too much, because I do not want to hurt people's feelings, and I'm always explainng myself, just to make sure no one was offended by what I consider to be my opinion. I always try to tell people that their opinion is valued, and that these are the ways that my opinions are different, etc....


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> I do relate to 4 a lot! But they are also things I've read in type 4 descriptions that I don't relate to, such as issues with identity and envy.
> 
> I would guess your enneatype is 2w3 (not sure about the wing) or possibly 9.


Ahh thats interesting! What do you relate to most with 1, 4 and 6 each?
Ohh why do you say that? I've had those suggested before quite a while ago!


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> @*Tad Cooper* just out of the blue, but what would you think about type 2?


Not too out of the blue as it's been suggested!

I'm unsure about it. I've had it suggested and thought of it as my type for a little while, but I really dont like being needed, I like to come and go rather than be relied on (I dont mind it in the short term but not in the long run!) What seems like 2 about me?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Nissa Nissa said:


> you need to write mooorrree (you too @*Tad Cooper*)
> 
> Fears, desires, illustrative stories from your lives, etc.)


Sorry! I tend to be very short in writing for some reason!

Fears: I dont tend to say Im fearful of anything physical, but I guess I fear physical disability for myself - I am autonomous and it would be extremely difficult for me to rely on others (I really struggle to give others responsibility which I consider my own, even down to disliking people making me dinner). Other than that I think losing people I'm close to, losing nature and the natural world, and probably the inner dark part of myself.

Desires: I can't really describe what I desire. It isn't something tangible, but more something like a feeling. I want to work to get to that feeling and then things would be really good, but I need to know how to get to it. That's the main one. Little desires include emotional and physical intimacy, but I find it very hard due to lack of trust. I'd also like to be able to provide for my loved ones.

illustrative stories: I have too many stories to choose, Ive had a pretty odd life....


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> Maybe some day they will become real rocks.
> I think you said a couple of things which very vaguely gestured at 6 (like gestured from behind a newspaper in a busy restaurant). I don't see it as enough to make me think 6 over 7, but maybe if you elaborate more?
> What's the fuzzy end goal like, roughly? Is it a general aim and, if so, what kind of aim? What would you want to avoid on the road to it?
> With 3, would you do something you know will get you praise from someone, like at work, as opposed to doing something which others won't be annoyed about but also won't be interested in at all?
> Thanks for the clarification! Maybe it would be handy if you talked a bit more about your general fears and motivations in life, as well as relationships to others?


I hope not!! 
What would be good to elaborate on? (Sorry, I'm unsure!)
The end goal really can't be described (its very unclear, more of a feeling). I think I can tell what to avoid as I go, but cant see it coming until it happens (I have made quite a lot of decisions when asked and without extensive thought i.e. being asked to choose my research for my master's degree - I basically had a good feeling towards one area and went for that).
I dont tend to work for praise, but am encouraged by it if Im feeling unsure with the subject - if Im unsure Im doing my job right and someone says Im doing well then I am reassured. Im quite happy doing something that I find interesting and others dont, but if people take an interest in what Im doing I want to do it at least fairly well/average and not badly.
I replied to nissa nissa above with fears etc if that helps?


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Well, for example, I have very good pain tolerance (I've had procedures where the doctor was surprised I wasn't flinching), but I have extreme sensitivity to discomfort - like if I can feel a clothes label is on the back of my neck, I can find it difficult to concentrate, or sometimes TV at a normal volume will feel extremely loud. There's a thing where you can have sensory issues particularly when under stress, or just goes up and down at random, or some senses will be more sensitive than others. Basically, the body is weird. If any of the sensory issues cause stress though, it's important to accommodate them by i.e. buying special headphones to block out sounds.


Interesting, I'm like...my whole family hates me because I always want the TV louder, opposite) physical things aren't usually 'too much' but a little bit annoys me, like some little noise will drive me crazy but loud noises are even nice, I don't get overwhelmed with things (I associate that with Si? but idk, probably not really)



> Ah yeah, I get what you mean. The sense of hopelessness in a struggle is depressing, purely because of the people still trying when there's no way there can be a positive outcome for them. Futility - that's the word. It's not so much necessarily like western colonialisation of places in particular, but all colonisation (for example, the Ainu people in Hokkaido were colonised by Japan in a similar way to England colonising Scotland or Wales) but yes, western colonisation is more widespread for sure.


yeah (and thanks for the Japan fact, know nearly nothing about that culture!)



> Hmm, instead of social issues, how about your focus on things like being a part of something? Are you very keen on being 'a part' and contributing towards something like that?


well I saw this like two hours and have been trying to think of something, but I can't really, not sure if there's been an opportunity for me to do so at any point in my life
Remember group projects in school...didn't care for them, I'd either try to make the project my own or I'd just do nothing, I remember doing something about WWI when I was 10 or something, they wanted me to do something but it really confused me and I didn't feel like I could get a word in edgewise and I said I'd do my own section about literature in WWI, they were really angry because it was supposed to be about the actual war but they hadn't really left me space to do anything related to that :frustrating:

Honestly I'm a little too self-involved to want to be a 'part' of something, in my defense I just don't find group things that interesting (don't like to listen to choirs for example, with exceptions), but in school I played viola in orchestra and I was always kinda waiting for solo opportunities (all those great viola solos you hear about...), it was a little confusing to me to be a part of the orchestra because just aurally it wasn't like I could hear myself playing, didn't feel like I was changing anything about how the music was so it was a little boring for me (I know this isn't what social is, understanding dynamics of orchestras, but this is generally how I feel about groups...) vs in choir, also wanted solos even though I had an awful voice lol because I wanted attention, but it confused me again where my voice was going and I was always scared I was off key so I'd just pretend to sing, always told my parents like 'it's completely pointless for me to be in this choir because I don't know how to sing with the choir, didn't get along with the other students but they didn't let me quit because it was good for me to part of something, don't know their logic there 

(Ended up going with another friend, a 4, who has a really, really good voice and she was always sad she didn't get solos, I was always furious with the choir director for not giving them to her, still don't know why he didn't, think he overlooked her because she didn't have a really bubbly so-first positive type personality and :frustrating

haven't really belonged to any other groups, not sure what I'd say I was a 'part of', think it's a little deceptive though because it just hasn't come up and I might be overlooking something

Groups can make me feel a little claustrophobic in general, hate the feeling that I 'owe' people a part of my time or that they think they rely on me for something, I like situations where I can go in and out, I've stopped going to churches/college courses because I felt like people were trying to make a personal connection and include me, ahaha, I don't like the feeling of having to explain myself or that people are going to remember some fact I said in conversation and bring it up some other day, it's petty but it just feels :frustrating: 
@Vixey posted this quote once, I think about it a lot, very interpretable but I guess similar to the above, the way I relate, in a way I hate having acquaintances 










(But more if they're solely my acquaintances, I enjoy my family's acquaintances, love meeting my friends' friends, I just don't want people who are all my responsibility, probably not an instinct thing at all)

But if I became famous for example it would probably be different



> How come you feel you 'need' to read the classics?


I don't know  
I'd say partly that it was the way I was raised, would vaguely say that my family values traditional edcuation, probably not enough to make a difference, but I enjoy self-improvement, I'm not very intellectual but reading books is an obvious way for it, I've mentioned before that I always wanted to be more challenged and I was always jealous of people in books who were forced to study Greek and Latin and such (not that I've ever properly tackled those beasts), I also...I don't know, it irritates me a lot to hear something I don't understand, I have very low tolerance for acronyms that I don't know what they stand for, it's just like this annoying bit of fuzz in my vision, so I don't like to see something about Milton and not have read Milton, can feel like cutting corners to just skip to things I like, and I want to get rid of all the cloud banks in my intellectual understanding of the world. I want everything to be so clear to me that it's not difficult at all, I want to know dates of historical figures, my idea of reading classics isn't that they're the _best_ books but it's like tidying, you get rid of the biggest things first and that seems the most weighty thing and then everything is so much clearer and falls into place, it's like putting up pillars and structure and I naturally give myself space to do what's interesting to me, I go off on a lot of tangents. Or I see classic novels and that kind of thing as hubs, train stations where all the trains change, it's easier to get around if you know those, you see the outline of the whole thing and then you can get down to details, fill the whole thing in

The other thing is, I really forgot how to read in school because I ended up having so much homework that I didn't have time to read for pleasure, before that I would pick up random books from the shelves and just start reading them, think it was a better way but I lost that skill so I had to direct myself to read and it made the most sense to focus on classic novels 

But I also want to be seen as an educated person I guess :/ well, I don't want to have not read something that will make someone go 'you haven't read _that_???' and I do like bragging rights lol (forgot to illustrate any of these stories with how I read War and Peace in the original Russian, where can I add that in?..)

(Reminds me, used to be really picky about reading things in the original, would avoid reading books if I didn't understand the language very well yet but felt I would someday, felt like cheating, still does actually but I've given up mostly, some things bother me that I read them in English. but I just really like 'original' things, like learning Disney songs in the princess's 'original' language XD)

And well, used to have a list of books, my feeling about it was that I couldn't get married/meet the love of my life until I finished the list, had a lot of similar lists, felt like becoming a 'complete' person (or I just wanted to give myself a false sense of progress)

But I'm less anal-retentive now, maybe because I finished all my lists and nothing happened :laughing: and I feel stupider than ever lol, luckily it was never really about intelligence



> This part you said sounded vaguely SO-focused to me:
> 
> But it would depend on your motivation for doing so. What drives you towards that?


I don't want to die and find out that there was something I missed, life is horrifyingly short and I want to get the most out of it
I think it's perfectly fine to experience life in one house, reading the same stories, thinking of the same things, it's quality, not quantity, but I think that would be wasted on me at this point. I want 'no song unsung, no wine untasted'.



> For me personally, I enjoy some classics (especially the ones by people like Wilkie Collins and H.G. Wells), but I don't feel obligated or like I need to read them - I actually never read any when I was younger, until I ran out of books and picked up the ones on my mum's bookshelf (and Wilkie Collins was a discovery from a Dan Simmons book called Drood, about Wilkie Collins and Charles Dickens - it's very good, I recommend it). I do try books to see if I like them, but classics are just old books and I don't like how especially English Lit courses can portray them as somehow more special than other books. I guess it seems unfair that they get that status due to their age to an extent.


I love Wilkie Collins :kitteh: my tradition is to read him whenever I have a cold, one of the reasons I enjoy that :kitteh:



> Kind of about the impact of different social and cultural experiences? Do you find writing the characters with that awareness more enjoyable than, say, something less socially-focused? (I don't know that it is SO-focus, that would be more that you wanted your book to contribute something to the world or something, I think.) It sounds good!


I guess (I mean, it's a children's book more or less haha)
I don't know, it kinda annoys me to have to have a plot in the first place, and I'm stupid with coming up with social awareness things, it's not really obvious to me how things would play out



> It can be difficult if you have that feeling of awkwardness or self-consciousness. I think a lot of people put forward as SO-first are often typed that way due to them being very 'involved' in social things, but an SO-first may contribute in a much more 'behind the scenes' kind of way (like writing a book with a heavy impact, or working in a computer-based job to contribute to i.e. the running of a server - so something which contributes towards their focus group, which might be all of their society, or just a family group, or a club etc.).


True, makes sense



> I can kind of understand that - I have good memories of getting sick on Bonfire Night and staying in drinking soup and watching the fireworks from the window - although I would never want to be sick. I guess focus on the overall, so things like if you value having a level of physical security (in your body and materially).


:fall:



Cacaia said:


> I try to do positive things, and the right thing, but I am not sure if this makes me a "good person". It depends on who you talk to, I guess. In my opinion, I WANT to be a good person. But then again, I think everybody does


Yeah, somewhat odd question, sorry about that 



> I think some of the paragraphs resonate, though not fully. This resonates:
> "The individual likes to predict the further development of the situations and topics that (s)he is interested in."
> and,
> "A typical manifestation is a lack of concern for small aesthetic details, since a greater focus is given on the opinion that, in the longer term, taking care of them is a never-ending exercise. "


Well, that would tip it more ENFJ but idk



> Oh, boy. This is hard....
> How do I make daily decisions? When it comes to people, always imagining the person's perspective of their world if possible before speaking.


This seems 9ish as well as Fe, do you do this for any particular reason (is it something you learned?)



> I think ahead: I have presents already brought for birthdays waaaaay ahead of time (like 6 months in advance or so)...I Can improvise, but prefer to have things planned during my day. I really don't care about new trends, etc, though I keep them in mind as an opening for conversation with someone.


:shocked: that's extremely impressive, I'm always in a light panic the day before XD 
Sounds ENFJish in general


> i often start statements like "I feel like....however, if you feel like....we'll make it work." i value team work and I HATE competitive games, or showing off in myself or others??????
> I often apologize too much, because I do not want to hurt people's feelings, and I'm always explainng myself, just to make sure no one was offended by what I consider to be my opinion. I always try to tell people that their opinion is valued, and that these are the ways that my opinions are different, etc....


to me this sounds social 9ish

Not sure if I tagged you properly but I thought it would be interesting to hear about 'your selfish side' (however you define that) for Enneagram, based on just this I'd definitely lean 9 > 2, lots of focus on lack of conflict



Tad Cooper said:


> Sorry! I tend to be very short in writing for some reason!
> 
> Fears: I dont tend to say Im fearful of anything physical, but I guess I fear physical disability for myself - I am autonomous and it would be extremely difficult for me to rely on others (I really struggle to give others responsibility which I consider my own, even down to disliking people making me dinner). Other than that I think losing people I'm close to, losing nature and the natural world, and probably the inner dark part of myself.


Well, first part sounds spish as well as (8? 6?)
last clause there is very interesting, not sure how I'd apply it Enneagram-wise



> Desires: I can't really describe what I desire. It isn't something tangible, but more something like a feeling. I want to work to get to that feeling and then things would be really good, but I need to know how to get to it. That's the main one. Little desires include emotional and physical intimacy, but I find it very hard due to lack of trust. I'd also like to be able to provide for my loved ones.


Interesting!
More sp imo, maybe 6 too?

Not sure where to go honestly, don't have any great questions, I guess...what would you say about your relationship with doubt? or y'know other 6ish things that I can't think of rn


----------



## star tripper

Remnants said:


> What about patterns, would you still like those if they were included in this context
> 
> 
> Ah. Everybody's Fool was always so annoying to me, but makes sense with the type yes.
> 
> For Paramore, I like this:


I don't love it myself. I only listen when I'm playing the full album. I adore What You Want, though.

Ugh thank you for actually posting a good Paramore song. Paramore fans are so fucking weird. They sincerely believe All We Know Is Falling and After Laughter, the two worst albums with one of them being an absolute Shakespearean tragedy and fuck Hayley, are their best albums. Riot! and brand new eyes have so many moments of great songwriting. Let the Flames Begin, Fences, Careful (lol such a 6 song), All I Wanted, Turn It Off. Just really well-written and at times somewhat thought-provoking tunes. But I've always enjoyed listening to the struggle of a 6 Christian. Even fictional ones like the protagonist in Iron Maiden's Sign of the Cross.






@Wisteria I was shading that album but it has such gems. Conspiracy, Emergency, My Heart, Here We Go Again...


----------



## Cacaia

*


Nissa Nissa;[/B said:



This seems 9ish as well as Fe, do you do this for any particular reason (is it something you learned?)]

I'm not sure ;-) I just always try to see the world from other people's perspectives when possible...I definitely believe there is a certain connection that binds all of us, whether it be language, or interests,perspective, experience or even color/ shoe style...anything



to me this sounds social 9ish said:



Mmmmm....maybe my avatar does speak more about me than I thought xD



Not sure if I tagged you properly but I thought it would be interesting to hear about 'your selfish side' (however you define that) for Enneagram said:



I guess...I crave attention? Like, I want to know everything that goes on around me- if I hear someone told a colleague about something that is going on in their life but did not tell me, I get a little upset. And then I get mad at myself for feeling that way, like I'm supposed to be the center of the earth, or something. I also have a hard time when someone doesn't consider my ideas or make me feel like I am incompetent.
Sometimes I feel drained when lots of people need my attention at the same time, and I just escape to my martial arts class or to the bedroom to read. But really, I feel like I need about 10 minutes tops by myself to recharge. 

Click to expand...



Click to expand...



Click to expand...

*


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Paradigm @Nissa Nissa

...Dammit. I must admit good points were made. Still I find it hard to reconcile my "homebody" lifestyle with the rockstar adventurous descriptions of Sx/So, there is a somewhat cave dweller quality to me (although I wish I had a "mentor" to get me out of my ivory tower and make me experience the things that I seem to disdain for what is actually probably a partial case of sour grapes. Not necessarily social things but more like grand adventures and simple physical pleasures stuff, cause I don't really know how to orient myself in those things and where to look for them) ... I have a strong w5 for sure, but I'm kinda confused as to how it affects things and how to sort it out from the instincts. Even on Facebook, I'm not posting any photos of my life and happenings for people to see, cause it's none of the pleb's business. And I sincerely doubt all the people who do so are So first. There has to be Sp/So's and Sx/So's doing that :scratch:

I feel like Sx/So would've fit quite well at some other point in time, but I've become quite self-conscious and insecure in the past year tbh... Like it doesn't show that much unless you'd spend enough time around me and get my feelings running, but fuck. Very Sp/Sx in behavior now.

Hmmm yeah I'm also back to questioning my image type (I attention whored for one long big thread on that so I reassure you guys that I don't intend to stretch the subject further :wink. I feel very borderline on the whole 3w4w3 thing. It seems like most people here are quite set on 3 however, envisioning it as potential core even lol.


----------



## Paradigm

Cacaia said:


> I guess...I crave attention? Like, I want to know everything that goes on around me- if I hear someone told a colleague about something that is going on in their life but did not tell me, I get a little upset. And then I get mad at myself for feeling that way, like I'm supposed to be the center of the earth, or something. I also have a hard time when someone doesn't consider my ideas or make me feel like I am incompetent.
> Sometimes I feel drained when lots of people need my attention at the same time, and I just escape to my martial arts class or to the bedroom to read. But really, I feel like I need about 10 minutes tops by myself to recharge.


 I know I may be biased from being an introvert, but I tend to suspect _ everyone_ needs some time alone to maintain some sanity. I know that the colloquial use of extroversion is "being around people always," but I genuinely don't see that in the extroverts I know: they need time to themselves, too. It's actually become a minor pet peeve of mine to hear/see people say things like "yeah I need one day a week all to myself," because I feel like that's such a limited understanding of introversion.

Anyway, I'll admit to falling into the "trap" of seeing you as an FJ (Fe) 2, so far. That could change, if you post more info here, but from the current information that seems the most likely. I'm leaning towards 2w3 for some reason, but that doesn't mean 2w1 is any less incorrect.


----------



## Cacaia

Paradigm said:


> I know I may be biased from being an introvert, but I tend to suspect _ everyone_ needs some time alone to maintain some sanity. I know that the colloquial use of extroversion is "being around people always," but I genuinely don't see that in the extroverts I know: they need time to themselves, too. It's actually become a minor pet peeve of mine to hear/see people say things like "yeah I need one day a week all to myself," because I feel like that's such a limited understanding of introversion.
> 
> Anyway, I'll admit to falling into the "trap" of seeing you as an FJ (Fe) 2, so far. That could change, if you post more info here, but from the current information that seems the most likely. I'm leaning towards 2w3 for some reason, but that doesn't mean 2w1 is any less incorrect.


When I was younger, I definitely took more time to myself. The longest time I do take to myself alone nowadays is when I'm reading. But I realize of late that even when I take "breaks" (from being around the kids, hubby, etc), I take "breaks" with other people around. I go to my martial arts classes, or art classes. ..


----------



## Immolate

@*Paradigm* Poking:



> Out of curiosity, has your impression of my stacking changed since we last talked about it?


 @Remnants I'll poke you too. I actually asked you this a while ago but you never got back to me. Keeping it to enneagram, what would you say about the avatars I use? What do my choices tend to reflect? How about my usernames, if you remember them? I've had three name changes so far.


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> Ahh thats interesting! What do you relate to most with 1, 4 and 6 each?
> Ohh why do you say that? I've had those suggested before quite a while ago!


I just realised that unhealthy 1s disintegrate into 4 

Haven't done a lot of research into enneagram (for some reason I can't get into it like I have with the other theories like socionics) so I've mostly learned the basics of each type and triad but haven't gone further. 

I'm typed as a core 1 because I relate with the gut triad's issues with anger, and specifally how type 1 manages this. The triad is also about instinctual energy I think? I relate to the description of type 1 with need to do things the right way, striving for perfectionism, personal integrity and frustration when people don't follow the rules, etc 

From the Heart triad (2,3,4) I choose 4w5 because they both withdrawn types.
Others have also thought I was type 6, but I'm not sure what the reasons were. Maybe it should be type 5 actually.

My impression was just based from vibes I guess. 9 is one of the most easy going types, and you definitely don't remind me of any 8s or 1s I've seen. 



Tad Cooper said:


> (I have made quite a lot of decisions when asked and without extensive thought i.e. being asked to choose my research for my master's degree - I basically had a good feeling towards one area and went for that).


Could this be gut triad? Is it too simplistic to think that going with your gut feeling when making a decision means gut/body triad? lol

Even though I'm hesitant at making decisions, I think i just end up going with my instinct as well, making the decision that feels most right.


----------



## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> @*Paradigm* @*Nissa Nissa*
> 
> ...Dammit. I must admit good points were made. Still I find it hard to reconcile my "homebody" lifestyle with the rockstar adventurous descriptions of Sx/So, there is a somewhat cave dweller quality to me (although I wish I had a "mentor" to get me out of my ivory tower and make me experience the things that I seem to disdain for what is actually probably a partial case of sour grapes. Not necessarily social things but more like grand adventures and simple physical pleasures stuff, cause I don't really know how to orient myself in those things and where to look for them) ... I have a strong w5 for sure, but I'm kinda confused as to how it affects things and how to sort it out from the instincts. Even on Facebook, I'm not posting any photos of my life and happenings for people to see, cause it's none of the pleb's business. And I sincerely doubt all the people who do so are So first. There has to be Sp/So's and Sx/So's doing that :scratch:
> 
> I feel like Sx/So would've fit quite well at some other point in time, but I've become quite self-conscious and insecure in the past year tbh... Like it doesn't show that much unless you'd spend enough time around me and get my feelings running, but fuck. Very Sp/Sx in behavior now.
> 
> Hmmm yeah I'm also back to questioning my image type (I attention whored for one long big thread on that so I reassure you guys that I don't intend to stretch the subject further :wink. I feel very borderline on the whole 3w4w3 thing. It seems like most people here are quite set on 3 however, envisioning it as potential core even lol.


You strike me as a clear 3 fixer. I realized this during our initial exchange here. I need the inspiration to strike before I can get arguments into words, unfortunately.
I don't have an opinion on your instincts, but Sx/So doesn't feel right to me. Again, I can't quite articulate it yet. One thing is that I don't think having an interest in social references is necessarily Soc, as this is an intellectual interest. Anyone can be interested in anything. The instincts are instincts, and the question is do you have the social _instinct_, which is more about how you interact with other people, what you look for in a relationship, and so forth. Sx/So's use the social stage to enhance their Sx appeal and I don't see you doing that in any clear way. I'm willing to be wrong here, and I'll come back to it when I have something more clear to say.

When the muse comes I'll try my best to put words to this. It might help if you could explain your own thoughts on 4 and 3? It would give me a jumping off point and maybe get my intuition here into solid words.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Animal

My initial reasoning on the instincts is akin to yours, and is the reason why I settled on Sx/Sp in the first place. SO blindspot would be clear. But if we look at the theory from the angle that a handful of people share here (concerning awareness and interest or whatnot), then yeah I guess SO in the stack and SP blindspot could make sense. Holy shit the instinct stuff is unclear, with various authors contradicting themselves...

I’ll write a post about self-image and identity tonight~


----------



## Dangerose

not to bring up the rather pointless subject of my instincts again lol because I don't even think I have them ahaha but if social is about interaction and participation on the social stage, and not interest in cultural points etc., why would I be social first - even not social-last??

(I should say, instinctively so-last feels really wrong to me, can't really explain why, but for instance last year I spent months living in almost total isolation in Nicaragua, actively avoiding the people I knew and new acquaintances, I was only focused on having enough entertainment, I have no problem breaking social ties if I don't have some sort of special connection with the person, even then sometimes...I just don't participate socially, I don't and I don't)

Can anyone see sp/sx??? i remember I used to type like that a million years ago, came to feel really wrong but almost everything about the instincts feels really wrong

_______________

Remembered it earlier in connection to what I was saying to @owlet about Thomas Hardy, remembered when I was in pre-school they gave us some sort of apple taste-test where we were supposed to decide our favourite kind of apple so I was given slices of five different apples, tried the golden delicious and I loved it so I set it aside and really focused on the other apples, and trying to like them and determine how I felt about them, when the exercise was over the teacher came by to take my plate and saw I'd eaten everything except the golden delicious and she said, "So I guess you didn't like that one?" and i was SO OFFENDED and just HORRIFIED that my meaning was mistook, tried to explain that NO that was my FAVOURITE that's why I didn't eat it, think that's sort-of a way I come across/am in general, that confuses people about me lol

Don't imagine how it could be type-related, just wanted to mention it, kind-of funny story, I still feel stressed out when I remember it lol


----------



## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> My initial reasoning on the instincts is akin to yours, and is the reason why I settled on Sx/Sp in the first place. SO blindspot would be clear. But if we look at the theory from the angle that a handful of people share here (concerning awareness and interest or whatnot), then yeah I guess SO in the stack and SP blindspot could make sense. Holy shit the instinct stuff is unclear, with various authors contradicting themselves...
> 
> I’ll write a post about self-image and identity tonight~


Russ Hudson used to type as Sx/So, and wrote his instinct stuff accordingly. Naranjo, on the other hand, went way over the top describing 'subtypes' which were more apparent in tritypes than instinct. For instance, why would an Sx 4 be more 8 than an 8 unless, like me, their second fix is 8? Why would a 459 or 469 be more 8 than an 8? Chestnut contributed to this tradition. @*Daeva* started an excellent commentary on that here:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...rum/1224386-chestnuts-subtypes-instincts.html


Russ Hudson realized, after being confronted by a very advanced student who is also a teacher, that he was actually Soc first. He wrote a lot of newer stuff about the meaning of instincts, some of which was posted on EIDB after his conferences. The whole thing I had read begins with an explanation about how the confusion and over-typing of Sx and undertyping of Soc, is not the fault of the enneagram enthusiasts but rather, the teachers.

The article was inadequate to describe it in depth, but was a brief overview of some things that were covered at his more recent conferences, and it was along the lines of returning to the idea of INSTINCT.

These instincts are literally present in animals. Elephants have a social instinct; to create a herd. When one elephant gets sick it separates from the others to spare them the illness (this is also a good explanation of shame). Wolves, many species of birds, etc, exhibit social instinct. However I doubt they give a fuck about the sociopolitical economy...

It also depends why you care about that stuff. How strong is your instinct toward tribalism for the sake of spreading a wider message? Where's "Us vs Them" as a negative potential? What is your attachment to a specific ideology and the need to spread it and include or exclude others? These are all things animals do, just without the higher minded "ideology" stuff. Lions , ancient smilodons, etc, have a whole hierarchy which determines who is in charge - that's Soc. Deciding who gets to marry who based on status --- an animalistic Soc behavior that moved over to human cultures. This does not mean individual humans who are soc doms want to marry based on status, but they often do care about sharing ideology in a relationship. (For what it's worth, most people do to a degree; we all have soc instinct somewhere in our stack and this is important for a stable marriage. But some people have more stock in these perfectly human things than others.) I know a couple - Sp/So and So/Sp - where one is an avid conservative ex-military guy and the woman is a life-long MAJOR MAJOR liberal, living out and preaching about her ideology- an SoSp 1, at that!!! And yet they have a good marriage. They just avoid arguing on each other's public extreme facebook posts 

Maybe a Soc dom 1 would think it's kind of hot that she breaks "the rules" to be with this military 7w8 SEE guy.
People can respond to their instinct in all sorts of ways, so saying "someone talks about blah thus they are this instinct" is reductive.

If you can't apply your basis of understanding an instinct to animals, it's probably unrelated to instinct. Of course humans will not behave the same as other animals, due to our great mental capacity which is geared toward over-complicating everything  but boil it down to its most basic, strip away the bullshit, and it's animal instinct.

Sx is a male bird singing the best song and showing its colorful feathers to attract prey. Or a male fish making a display in the sand that takes days to make. It's an otherwise POINTLESS (toward the sake of survival or the species) display done in the pure interest of _attracting and arousing another party to copulate with you_. More deeply , it's jumping right into, or in turn, EXUDING (as part of your display), the dangerous threat of consuming or being consumed, eating you alive vs being eaten alive. It's a salmon swimming upstream to mate and die. It's a male preying mantis copulating only to get eaten afterwards.

The way Sx instinct manifests in humans and certain specific species is about generating arousal, which implies we have some choice in who we mate with. It's about attraction and arousal, but there are many species of animals who don't give the females any choice, simply rape them, or defeat the other males. This does not translate to 'attracting' and 'arousing,' although it is still about sex.

To provide a contrast, two male gorillas physically fighting to claim the best mate is Soc. They aren't putting on a display to attract the female and give them choice of the hottest and most attractive mate; instead, they're winning a fight in order to climb the hierarchy, beat the other guy down and rape her. The animals that do this by hierarchy are using Soc tactics to mate. Many human cultures require a brideprice and either money (Sp) or status (Soc) in order to purchase or earn the best mate --- these rituals involve marrying and mating but they are not done through the INSTINCT of Sx attraction and magnetism.

Is someone making a really impressive display always Sx? No. Why are they doing it? Marilyn Manson self-identifies as Soc 4 and he makes quite the display; his very name is a commentary on society. Marilyn(Monroe) (Charles)Manson. He represents the disintegration of society and delves into that in his lyrics. His display is imagey because he's an image type who wears his own (or the world's, as a Soc dom) suffering on his sleeve. My own band name is about being exiled from passion, which I call Eros. As an Sx dom it's my suffering around being a reject (due to 4ness) in the realm of *erotic* passion and desire. But it also causes people to think of Eros (desire, eroticism, sex), whereas Manson's band name causes them to think of Social implications. Choices like this show instinct; where is the display aiming? Of course many people name their bands for reasons... managers etc.. but you have to look for the actions that came from within which reveal something about who they are and what they stand for. Then think, how would this apply to animals? The herd animals have reasons to excommunicate some of them and hold some of them up as leaders, gods of their tribe. That's the Marilyns vs. the Mansons.


EDIT: Ah, the article was posted here. (Though I don't know why it's "spiritual.")
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/1066258-spiritual-instincts.html


Edit #2

One way to say this is:
Sx = Sex
Sp = Survival
Soc = Community

Unfortunately every human and animal has to deal with those things one way or other. So how do you decide which instinct is more central to you, or to some species of animal?

Your eye lands on the following:
Sx = Arousal (Chemistry, "Damn that's hot," Magnetism, What turns you on)
Sp = Resources (Time, Money, Health, Fitness, Building yourself up)
Soc = Context (Genre, Hierarchy, Interpersonal placement "friend/brother/sister/partner")


----------



## Tad Cooper

Nissa Nissa said:


> I love Wilkie Collins :kitteh: my tradition is to read him whenever I have a cold, one of the reasons I enjoy that :kitteh:
> 
> Well, first part sounds spish as well as (8? 6?)
> last clause there is very interesting, not sure how I'd apply it Enneagram-wise
> 
> Interesting!
> More sp imo, maybe 6 too?
> 
> Not sure where to go honestly, don't have any great questions, I guess...what would you say about your relationship with doubt? or y'know other 6ish things that I can't think of rn


Wilkie Collins is so good - love his work! You need to read Drood for sure (I also love Dan Simmons)

Oh thanks! People havent really suggested sp for me generally because I tend to ignore pain etc and just carry on, but I also horde supplies/over shop so I dont run out of things....

Hm doubt is very strong for me and pretty much there constantly. I never feel confident in what I say or do. I'm unsure what else is 6ish....Im quite reactive to things?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> I just realised that unhealthy 1s disintegrate into 4
> 
> Haven't done a lot of research into enneagram (for some reason I can't get into it like I have with the other theories like socionics) so I've mostly learned the basics of each type and triad but haven't gone further.
> 
> I'm typed as a core 1 because I relate with the gut triad's issues with anger, and specifally how type 1 manages this. The triad is also about instinctual energy I think? I relate to the description of type 1 with need to do things the right way, striving for perfectionism, personal integrity and frustration when people don't follow the rules, etc
> 
> From the Heart triad (2,3,4) I choose 4w5 because they both withdrawn types.
> Others have also thought I was type 6, but I'm not sure what the reasons were. Maybe it should be type 5 actually.
> 
> My impression was just based from vibes I guess. 9 is one of the most easy going types, and you definitely don't remind me of any 8s or 1s I've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> Could this be gut triad? Is it too simplistic to think that going with your gut feeling when making a decision means gut/body triad? lol
> 
> Even though I'm hesitant at making decisions, I think i just end up going with my instinct as well, making the decision that feels most right.


Oh true, I forgot that!
Hmm well enneagram is very different in that it's fears and desires rather than cognition - it offers more of a way to improve etc, whereas socionics is more a way to understand?
What makes you strive for perfection and doing the right thing? I think motivations are very important for enneagram as a lot of types overlap in that sort of thing. With 4/5/6 I think they are all fairly withdrawn in a lot of ways, is there anything more than makes you think any of them?

ahh thanks! I'm quite easy going, but will also appear chilled while being very unchilled. 9s can be very forceful and aggressive if they believe it will result in 'peace' for them.

I actually have no idea about if gut triad is going with your gut or if theres a link! It'd be interesting for sure. 
Yeah I wonder if it's relying on feeling over exact, precise reasoning? I tend to reason but sometimes just cant get past the gut feeling.


----------



## Paradigm

Immolate said:


> @*Paradigm* Poking:


I'm pretty sure I was half drunk when I posted last, so it's probably best I didn't reply to you then :laughing:

I don't think my assessment has changed about your instincts, no, especially given your probable type. SOC-last fits you, judging by what we've talked about. Sorry if that's disappointing!

Thank you for your post about SP/sensor/Delta  I think I'll have to conclude (again) I'm an uncommon combination of types: ILI + 6w7 = wtf readings from everyone.


----------



## Paradigm

@Animal
I feel like you're trying to describe SOC-first, and those on the healthier end of the spectrum, but also forgetting that SOC-first people can still feel like they're not part of anything, or loathing the group they are a part of, and reacting badly/unhealthily to those feelings, maybe even turn them outward (such as into the misanthropy I mentioned before). The question is more about SOC-mid, which I see you slightly touched on but didn't really describe it or take into account possible unhealthy adaptations. I would even readily assume plenty of SOC-mids are more likely to feel like that, or like community is just something they can forget about when it's inconvenient.

It's kinda like how someone said earlier "no SP-first would starve themselves or miss sleep," yet I'm frequently guilty of both. The instincts can't capture every nuance like that, and trying to boil them down into a few words misses _even more_ nuances.

And I'm torn on noting @ElectricSlime doesn't really ever (afaik) talk about things I would guess are SP(-mid), but he's shown himself to talk about things I would guess are SOC-mid... But then I also realize I don't often talk about SX stuff in an obvious manner, even though I readily admit my second instinct is fairly "weak," and so using that as a measuring stick feels mildly hypocritical.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> @Animal
> I feel like you're trying to describe SOC-first, and those on the healthier end of the spectrum, but also forgetting that SOC-first people can still feel like they're not part of anything, or loathing the group they are a part of, and reacting badly/unhealthily to those feelings, maybe even turn them outward (such as into the misanthropy I mentioned before). The question is more about SOC-mid, which I see you slightly touched on but didn't really describe it or take into account possible unhealthy adaptations. I would even readily assume plenty of SOC-mids are more likely to feel like that, or like community is just something they can forget about when it's inconvenient.
> 
> It's kinda like how someone said earlier "no SP-first would starve themselves or miss sleep," yet I'm frequently guilty of both. The instincts can't capture every nuance like that, and trying to boil them down into a few words misses _even more_ nuances.
> 
> And I'm torn on noting @ElectricSlime doesn't really ever (afaik) talk about things I would guess are SP(-mid), but he's shown himself to talk about things I would guess are SOC-mid... But then I also realize I don't often talk about SX stuff in an obvious manner, even though I readily admit my second instinct is fairly "weak," and so using that as a measuring stick feels mildly hypocritical.


So you recognize frequently talking about SP things then ?

What would be those things ?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

I want to discuss my sp instinct, because I'm not sure if I am, but then in other ways, it does make sense too. I thought I'd pull these quotes from you, owlet, since I see you as sp, and I want to bounce this off of you (or others too).



owlet said:


> Si in socionics is about a focus on internal sensations, so both positive and negative but generally pursuing positive internal sensations (what can create those differs from individual to individual though).* SP on the other hand, is about the practical concerns of everyday life "centering around issues of security, food and health, employment, sustainability", so it's more practically-based than Si.*


See, all of this I am _terrible_ at! I'm so bad at being practical, and yet, I do see this in people who have sp, like they care about eating the right foods, wearing the comfortable clothes (I like a little bit of comfort too, but it isn't a priority), staying healthy/safe, working to ensure their material security, and I think they are "neurotic" about it too. I've seen sp-doms worry about finances, worry about health to the point of going to chiropractors/taking all these vitamins/supplements to ensure their health. Whereas I just work out to stay sane basically and because at this point I know it's good for me to do, eat when I have to, even ignore eating if it takes me away from other things, like I should be eating right now, but I'm writing on here haha, and I do this constantly. I never learn. I don't know if I'm sp-last level, like when I think of that, I think of how David Bowie would only eat one raw egg a day, and I'm like, that's so unhealthy! I barely eat much myself, but I don't think I would take it to that extreme, and it is a very extreme example.



owlet said:


> Sounds like SX-second perhaps, but I'm not sure. I really don't see SP first or second, because things like gardening aren't intrinsically SP - *SP is the focus on personal survival i.e. watching one's own energy levels*, being aware of (and trying to avoid) illness, trying to have a level of material security, stability and so on.


Now, this more true for me, but couldn't energy levels be related to 5 too? I do focus on my survival, though. I won't do anything truly reckless to endanger myself (There have been times, but only because I don't think of the consequences at the time), and can even be a little too safe, but I also feel like sp-doms are usually saying to me, "You need to take better care of yourself", and I agree, but I just don't worry about it either until it becomes a problem. Though, my means of comparison to sp-doms here usually have 1, 2, or 6 at play here too. Still, when I hear some of the things from sp-lasts, like @*Animal*'s recent post about taking risks, I'm just like...:shocked: I was actually like that towards my sx/so 7 friend, like I say she needs to watch and take care of herself better, so I guess it's all a bit relative.



> I find taking the 'extreme' descriptions and mellowing them to a more realistic level can help - like if SX is very focused on intense connections and being invigorated over SO (contributions, being a part of etc.) and SP (sustainability, security, health etc.), *then they might be someone who stays up all night before a class because they got a video game they love.* SX doesn't have to be edgy or 'big' or dramatic, it's an internal process.


I agree that sx can be over-the-top in the descriptions, but then I don't see why this sx, as I've been saying before. I do this all the time. I stay up too late. I have pretty bad discipline. I don't care about eating/sleeping, if there's something more interesting to do, and I pursue it as an obsession. I am one of the most obsessive people I know, but I also don't see this "obsession" extend to romantic relationships. I can be almost laissez-faire when it comes to them, and they are few and far between. Although, I don't like when someone I'm interested in is receiving more attention from a "rival" partner and that really makes me feel worthless, but it isn't a preoccupation either. I even feel this among friends too, like if I'm not the "best friend" to someone (Think of how Barney is with Ted, "No, I'm your best friend, Ted" yet we all know Marshall is Ted's best friend. Hated HIMYM and Barney btw lol, but it's sort of like that), if they would rather be with them instead of me, it makes me rather uncomfortable when I see that "closeness" between them that I don't have, and I'll try to be that "one" for them, so I do sort of see this "special someone" dynamic in me, but it isn't really _romantic_. And yet, other times, if it's someone else who I don't want that from, I won't really care. Usually the people (or, rather persons since I mean this in an individual sense as opposed to a group of people) who want to be with me, I don't want to be with, and the people I want to be with, don't want to be with me haha. 

Now, I do see @*Animal* as very clearly sx, and she has said this that she has had romantic obsessions over partners or potential mates, and yes, that I clearly see being sx in nature. I do it too, but not to that extent. They do not occupy my every waking hour. It's a lot less on my radar. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think being obsessed with a video game, or just anything like that, really cuts sx for me. I really see sx-doms as feeling like they aren't complete unless they have another. Why would a video game complete a sx-dom, you know? It's sort of like this quote I found from Slash recently that shows his sp/sx, like his guitar is the same thing as the video-game:

"Melissa and I really cared for each other, but we still broke up and made up often, usually as a result of my commitment to learning to play guitar overshadowing my commitment to spending time with her."

Also, @*Nissa Nissa* I hate being a part of groups, or at least when it came to school, I _loathed_ group work. I think it has something to do with being forced to interact with people in your class you want nothing to do with haha, the awkwardness of it all, and also because I'd rather work things out on my own too. I don't like having to depend on the group. I also loathe team sports. I was never good at them, and always would see myself as the weakest link on the team, even if I wasn't, and that I was letting the team lose/down (I mean, there's still a focus on Social here too), so I think it depends on the specific context too. I enjoy sports where I can be on my own, running, swimming, working out at home, like I refuse to go to the gym to work out among people, tried it, no thanks, mostly because I'm self-conscious of my body. 

Anyways, I don't think I'm social-last, but I find in these specific instances I will _seem_ social-last too. I even spent the good part of my freshman year at college away from everyone, looking rather down on them all, never wanting to participate/contribute in their fun because I thought I was too good for it, but I was also so miserable from it too. I almost became a part of a fraternity too in my first week to "belong", but it wasn't like your typical jock-style frat, very much the "cool-kid" anti-frat full of druggies and wannabe beatniks you could say, but I refused again, because I didn't want to be a part of the group and had other plans for myself. My roommate I'm pretty sure was 9w1 so/sx, and he related so well to everyone immediately, like he's definitely who you would think of when it comes to the idea of "Everyone's Best Friend", which I think I see used in conjunction with so/sx, and it was so effortless for him too, likely from being Social 9 too. I eventually let my guard down and started being part of the main group, but again, I don't think I'm social-last. I was pretty active in high school with groups and such, like drama club, but I tend to not think of myself as part of the group. I'm always rebelling to be a part of a "whole" in some low-key way haha, especially if I'm forced by others to interact, and it really depends on the people, but I do secretly crave that sense of belonging too. Still, my focus is very much on group dynamics, so that's why I see myself as having Social, not sure if core Social, but I'm not Social-last, and instead see a lot of this being rather from 4 too. 

As far as Facebook, that was another thing I just didn't want to be a part of. I mean, I signed up and did the whole thing very low-key, but I also wouldn't put up a profile picture for the irony of not having a face on Facebook, put up pictures of characters to communicate my suffering but never of myself (I always could find something wrong with whatever picture I wanted to put up), and never really broadcasted about myself in any way. Usually just made snide/self-deprecating comments about other people or my own ridiculousness, but I also really wanted to be noticed for it too, like I became very dependent on receiving likes through it, but I'm not going to be the person with a Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat. :bored: I've since now given up Facebook, as I see no purpose in having it, but I mean Social is there even if I'm against it.

@*ElectricSlime*, think this speaks to you in a way too, and I see why people think you're sx/so, which I think I do too, but I'm also not sure anymore. I don't know if you ever heard of the contraflow/synflow theory, and I don't think I buy into it anymore, but you seem like you'd be contra (sx/so) rather than syn (sx/sp), if that holds any weight. In a way, think I'm more contra than syn too, which makes so/sp more likely, but I'm not sure and wouldn't really use it as a basis for typing one's self.

Also, about so/sp, like I don't know, I could be so/sp, and this is a silly reason, but I was reading Pride and Prejudice this past year, which I see as a very so/sp novel, and all that courting/social etiquette bores me to no end. I can't even finish it. See my beautiful property and why that makes me a catch! :bored: Though, again, maybe it just didn't appeal to my 4 sensibilities. I want at least _some_ passion from the characters, though, and P&P is so lifeless to me; but then sx/so characters can be too much where I start to  too, like Dmitri in Brothers Karamazov, or even most songs on the radio that are overtly sx. Shut up! 

I don't know, but I can enjoy sx when it's delivered in this way, not that I really relate to it, but because it's _soulful_...Aaaaah. 


* *












But when it's like this, I want to drive off the road when it comes on the radio...:laughing:


* *














That's all from me. Wonder what anyone makes of it. I'm going to now go eat!


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> So you recognize frequently talking about SP things then ?
> 
> What would be those things ?


The way you worded this question is confusing to me. Me frequently talking about SP things? I would consider most of my self-reflection to be heavily influenced by being "SP first," though I feel like nowadays I don't post as much about myself as I have in the past. I've recently described how I experience SP in this thread, as boundaries and comfort and stuff. SP can mimic the w5's constant descriptor of having a "tip of the iceburg quality;" I think it may be the opposite case for you, that your w5 is mimicking SP-mid.

Wouldn't blame you if you decided I'm being too esoteric, but just commenting on my current observations.


----------



## Immolate

Paradigm said:


> I'm pretty sure I was half drunk when I posted last, so it's probably best I didn't reply to you then :laughing:
> 
> I don't think my assessment has changed about your instincts, no, especially given your probable type. SOC-last fits you, judging by what we've talked about. Sorry if that's disappointing!


I was going to suggest sx-last, but I largely run on coffee and bread, and my partner is constantly making sure I don't walk into traffic because I'm inside my head so much, so it could be that I'm sp-last after all.


----------



## Mr Castelo

I thought I was so-last at first too due to misunderstanding what the Social instinct is really about (which is not purely socializing, although that _can_ be part of it). I loathe group mentality, I think a lot of social rules are dumb, and I couldn't care less about status and networking. But I've come to realize that I do have some focus and grasp on group dynamics and hierarchies, and how I and others fit in within those. It doesn't mean that I want to "belong" to those things, or that I like them, I just have _some_ awareness of it. Imo, the second instinct is the one you have the most control over, because you don't obsess over it or overdo it like the first one, while you're not at risk of completely neglecting it like the last one either.

That being said, I also think that instincts manifest differently in people as individuals and also depending on their types. I'm SP-first, but I've forgotten about eating and taking care of myself multiple times for various reasons, Self-Preservation is _not_ Si. It manifests as a need for self-control and self-management to me, I have myself and my own needs (not necessarily physical) as my first priority.


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## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> The way you worded this question is confusing to me. Me frequently talking about SP things? I would consider most of my self-reflection to be heavily influenced by being "SP first," though I feel like nowadays I don't post as much about myself as I have in the past. I've recently described how I experience SP in this thread, as boundaries and comfort and stuff. SP can mimic the w5's constant descriptor of having a "tip of the iceburg quality;" I think it may be the opposite case for you, that your w5 is mimicking SP-mid.
> 
> Wouldn't blame you if you decided I'm being too esoteric, but just commenting on my current observations.


But do you find SP matters to be the bulk of your conversations with people, seeing as how you mentioned me discussing SO topics ? Just curious cause I feel talking about health, or comfort or shopping isn’t the kind of stuff I use to engage a person. Don’t most people find that boring anyway ?

And don’t worry, I appreciate receiving your input and do consider it  In fact, you people should keep talking about me !


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## Animal

Paradigm said:


> @*Animal*
> I feel like you're trying to describe SOC-first, and those on the healthier end of the spectrum, but also forgetting that SOC-first people can still feel like they're not part of anything, or loathing the group they are a part of, and reacting badly/unhealthily to those feelings, maybe even turn them outward (such as into the misanthropy I mentioned before).


I completely agree with this and say it all the time.
This is why I don't see @*ElectricSlime* having a healthy relationship with Soc, "Take it or leave it," to account for Soc mid. I'm sitting back and watching since I don't have a strong opinion on his instincts atm , but if anything, the things you have pointed out, along with his answers , would indicate some trouble in the soc area... I might even suggest he explore Soc first. Soc is about your attention going to this area, so classifying oneself as 'anti social' is just as social as classifying oneself as overtly social.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my post. I wasn't going into human behaviors; I was going into the ROOT of them.

Marilyn Manson, the example I used, is quite clearly anti-social. When he's not on stage or touring, he's also somewhat a homebody from what I understand. Highly creative people often have to spend a lot of time alone in order to you know... create the art. Write the books. Write the songs. Edit them. Etc.
He is also a cognitive introvert.



> The question is more about SOC-mid, which I see you slightly touched on but didn't really describe it or take into account possible unhealthy adaptations. I would even readily assume plenty of SOC-mids are more likely to feel like that, or like community is just something they can forget about when it's inconvenient.


To speak for myself, I am pretty wild when I'm involved with people but those periods last VERY short times and usually involve me CHASING an obsession with a guy. Once I have him I keep him at home with me.  I go after super introverted guys too, in general.

I am very much a homebody. You're talking to someone who spent lunch periods writing books instead of socializing, moved to other areas alone and made no friends (by choice), as I had more important things to do there; who talks about her best friends who she sees maybe once every 5 years and barely keeps up with in between.

I never ever said that social doms, or soc middles, had to be social or not. 

It may not have been clear in my posts but I was talking about the roots of the instincts. However I am certain I never would have said that Soc doms- or seconds- have to be overtly social creatures (as in socializing a lot) or else I would type myself at Soc last and two of my closest friends who are Soc doms, at Soc last as well.

I would simply never make that mistake; it's inconsistent with my mentality.

That's why I pointed out the importance of looking at the ROOT of the instincts, rather than arguing about "Soc doms do this, Soc doms don't do that, Soc doms talk about this, they don't talk about that." Discussing the root is exactly to avoid bullshit distinctions like "this person leaves the house a lot," which are mostly pointless.

I just want to make this extra clear though. I'm not blaming you for saying this, since I never made it clear in this particular set of posts, though I have many times made this same argument in the past. I just ignored it here, since I wanted to have a healthy discussion of the roots of instincts and not to veer too far from that. Yes, the root of Soc, being aware of how much Society sucks, could drive a person to be quite the loner.



> It's kinda like how someone said earlier "no SP-first would starve themselves or miss sleep," yet I'm frequently guilty of both. The instincts can't capture every nuance like that, and trying to boil them down into a few words misses _even more_ nuances.


Totally. I know an Sp first very closely who is a drug addict, overeats, etc.

Instinct is not about being good at that instinct. It's about over-focusing on it. Sx dominants can be very Un-sexy because of the creepo obsesso factor. *hides*



> And I'm torn on noting @*ElectricSlime* doesn't really ever (afaik) talk about things I would guess are SP(-mid), but he's shown himself to talk about things I would guess are SOC-mid... But then I also realize I don't often talk about SX stuff in an obvious manner, even though I readily admit my second instinct is fairly "weak," and so using that as a measuring stick feels mildly hypocritical.


Yeah. I'm not really sure of his instincts yet. I haven't ruled anything out. I've got my eye on Soc first although again I'm not convinced of anything. I know I said Sx first before but now I watched a bit more. I cant really suggest anything since I'm still percolating. Sx/So just *feels* off, but it's so abstract WHY it feels off right now that I can't make an actual case that it's off.



Edit: @*Paradigm*
When I say a 'healthy discussion of roots' and not veering too far ---- I don't mean that the rest of the convo was unhealthy. I thought you did a good job of covering the "anti-social soc" so I wanted to cover the root stuff in my own post.


----------



## Animal

To add to that, Soc doms can be incredibly anti-social due to over-focus on how much society sucks;
They can be really picky about who their friends are and who they associate with;
They can be picky about the ideology, mindset, genre or other aspects of people that they consider important, thus leaving them with VERY few friends or even none, since none meet their picky criteria;
They can be caught up on their movement to improve the world, and care about the world as a whole but hate the individuals in it, seeing the individuals as pawns;
etc

Not that they HAVE to be this way...
But this is why talking about "Soc doms do this, but they don't do that" isn't as helpful as pointing out that the root of the instinct is X or Y. Then you can see how all these behaviors I listed here still stem from the focus on elements related to Soc, regardless how social or anti-social, people loving or people hating, the person is.


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## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> @*ElectricSlime*, think this speaks to you in a way too, and I see why people think you're sx/so, which I think I do too, but I'm also not sure anymore. I don't know if you ever heard of the contraflow/synflow theory, and I don't think I buy into it anymore, but you seem like you'd be contra (sx/so) rather than syn (sx/sp), if that holds any weight. In a way, think I'm more contra than syn too, which makes so/sp more likely, but I'm not sure and wouldn't really use it as a basis for typing one's self.


I also fit better with contra flow, but I feel that I'm definitely more synflow when I'm healthy, then again this is congruent with me integrating at 9... I've considered this flow thing bullshit for a while now, to tell the truth. Any 9w1 will look synflow ime.

In fact, my faith in most of the system is going pretty low at this point tbh. I'm even reconsidering tritype theory cause the Fauvres are the only ones supporting AFAIK and I feel a lot of it is to stroke even more their self image (scholar tritype lol). I mean I guess it's cool in that it adds flavor and individualism to our persona so people can understand more, but it seems a bit like overdoing it, in how it gives us excuses to have a connection to almost all the types or explain how we're totally unlike our core type.

Btw totally relate on being an unpractical fuck who can't (and won't) take care of his bodily needs much, I think it's a weak Si thing :violin:

Just an interesting thought: Byron aka the Sx/So posterboy, was anorexic, would starve himself on a few potatoes and vinegar, and "worked out" with warm, thick clothes to lose even more weight. It does seem like a strong neurosis and concern for a SP blindpost.
@Animal

While I'm anti social, I don't think I'm THAT anti social either. Like I'm not always focusing on how I don't fit in or whatnot (though it can happen sometimes in times of loneliness especially), nor am I hyper aware of what is going in my direct "social sphere" (don't really know how to call it) to criticize it. I tend to deplore my lack of SO grace more in how it would be so much easier to get my SX needs met (especially when I look at people I know) if social was something given to me on a silver platter. I didn't mind it much when I still felt mastery over my personal attractiveness and I could merge intensely with activities and people, hence how I kinda forgot to build a solid social network in the meantime, but I'm at a point now where I feel like a starved ghost and I'm not enough by myself anymore, and I need something else to carry me into getting my SX needs met, cause things obviously aren't working out the way I want them to. On my political opinions and all that jazz, well I'm likely an NT who has a much better knack for humanities than hard sciences (that I find very boring) as well as an edgy teen, it only makes sense that history, economics, poetry and politics (the last one less so than the others however) will be areas of interest imo.

My sister is I believe SO dom, and aside from spending all her downtime on social media, she does seem hyper aware of everything going on at her school and she seems to "mythologize" people. It's especially weird when she starts putting a pedestal a couple of people with whom I interact every few days like they're Greek gods, while to me they're just two very normal people. Likewise we were eating out at a restaurant the other day and one of the waitresses was a (very hot) girl that I knew from way back. She started poking me all excited "OMG OMG OMG Slime, It's Allison !! She works here !"

Me: Oh nice, maybe I'll talk her later if she's not too busy.

Sister: OMG OMG Slime, SHE'S LOOKING OUR WAY (probably thinking that she's important or something)

Me: Ok you shut up now.

Granted, she's very stereotypical, but that just seems like a concern and awareness alien to me.

My mom is SP 613 Sp, and jesus christ she worries over the stupidest thing imo, and seems dedicated to obstructing any fun I may be having. But not sure if she's Sp/Sx or Sp/So as I can find points for either...

Dunno, I think by means of comparison to my environment and through elimination, Sx is very much the best fit.

Likewise:


> Your eye lands on the following:
> Sx = Arousal (Chemistry, "Damn that's hot," Magnetism, What turns you on)
> Sp = Resources (Time, Money, Health, Fitness, Building yourself up)
> Soc = Context (Genre, Hierarchy, Interpersonal placement "friend/brother/sister/partner")


Out of those three, Sx is actually the only one that really gets to me. Either of the other two seem expendable.

Man I feel boring tonight, might want to get drunk when I'll write about my image fix :dry:


----------



## Animal

@ElectricSlime
Makes sense. All of that gives an Sx/Sp impression to me.
Sorry if I seem non committal or "going back and forth" - I'm still percolating and don't have a strong opinion either way, but this last post reminds me of your previous posts and why I had thought Sx/Sp made more sense.

Different stacks have different "energies," and it leaves a distinct impression on me. I know there's type and all other factors (cognition, enneagram).... but I don't know, there's something missing with Sx/So that I can't put my finger on in words yet. I don't expect anyone to buy that as a case; I promise you I will put it in words when I'm able.

What you say here, though, hits me as Sx/Sp.


> I'm at a point now where I feel like a starved ghost and I'm not enough by myself anymore, and I need something else to carry me into getting my SX needs met, cause things obviously aren't working out the way I want them to.



"Starved ghost" is a position Sx/Sp's find themselves in. Like you say Sx/So's would have a network or.. in my case, I don't, but I know how to make an appearance somewhere. I know this is true of Sx/So 6 because my close friend is one.

I agree that talking about the world is more related to ENTP than instinct. That's not to say all ENTPs do it, but you have an expansive brain that hops around a lot. Ne.
@star tripper has that clear Sx/So energy and she understands how it works, too. You seem more like you're intellectually preening which is what Sx 6s (or head types) do. But yeah.. your soc doesnt seem like it's "just there" in the background of some other instinct. It feels more.. all or nothing; like a muscle you forgot to use, especially in this last post and several from before the recent conversation about it.

Thing is , we all have all instincts so when someone is hitting me with "This is Sp, this is Sp" ... I can't deny that I do those things. I care about Sp; I need to survive; I even had a chronic illness. And I'm highly competitive achiever.

Then others ask, well maybe you're SxSp. But we get into the same problem wiht Soc. I do those things too. My first novel in my fantasy series is Soc > Sx, setting the premise of a world. There are major us/them, status climbing social themes. None of the characters are 4 either. Obviously it's something I like delving into.

So...in the end, all humans have all instincts.
So "GOTCHA! YOU USE SOC!" doesn't always work.

It seems to me that the way you handle your Sx has a lack of Soc in it. Whereas the stuff that looks like "Soc" is intellectual awareness and preening.

You also go back and forth as to whether you avoid upsetting people, then punch back hard. This might just be six, but I was briefly contemplating that it could be a thing about 'listening too much to other people's ideas to see what group you fall into.' That sounds like overthinking, I know. This is why I said I was percolating.

But yeah, I'll put my vote on Sx/Sp for now. Sorry for the lack of a compelling case. But it just makes the most sense.


On my forum, we make collages, which tap into the unconscious. Using images from the internet that we put together. Would you be up for posting some in the visual typing thread and/or sending them to me on PM? My husband and I have a lot of experience reading collages (with success on our own forum) and we could offer our insights, though there's no expectation for you to "buy into" anything. If you think that kind of typing is shit, that's fine; I am not here to convince you but just to see if I can offer more insight which you're free to discard. Up to you.


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## nep2une

mistakenforstranger said:


> she has said this that she has had romantic obsessions over partners or potential mates, and yes, that I clearly see being sx in nature. I do it too, but not to that extent. They do not occupy my every waking hour. It's a lot less on my radar.


Good, it's probably healthy for you to be that way. And the alternative is more excruciating anyway. It's like being a drug addict.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I really see sx-doms as feeling like they aren't complete unless they have another.


What gets me about this is it seems like such an unhealthy mindset to have. "Not being complete unless they have another."

It's like in Lana del Rey's song "Video Games" where she sings, "Only worth living if somebody is loving you…" 

and my reaction to that sentiment is to just want to give them a little slap on the wrist and say, "No! Bad! Stop that!" 

It's not like I can't understand it, either. I used to have that mindset. I had to train myself out of it.

It seems a bit healthier to me if someone redirects some of that energy to doing some kind of work that fulfills them, a cause, friends, art, not just have it directed towards a significant other. Have some level of balance. They can have a relationship, they can have some level of romantic or sexual intensity if that's what they want, but hopefully they keep themselves from being or becoming codependent wrecks. 

This is something I always worry about with people who type themselves as sx-dominants, if they know not to romanticize the idea of basically needing a relationship to function.


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## ElectricSlime

Animal said:


> @ElectricSlimeDifferent stacks have different "energies," and it leaves a distinct impression on me. I know there's type and all other factors (cognition, enneagram).... but I don't know, there's something missing with Sx/So that I can't put my finger on in words yet.


Oh I definitely agree on the energy thing. I'm reading the Sx/So oceanmoonshine description right now, and while it fits pretty well, I feel it doesn't capture my on/off quality and "the blockage" of my intensity. Sx/So seems like the evershining supernova, while I'm more of a cauldron filled to the brim with boiling water, I don't know what I'm expected to do with it and letting it all out at once scares off people, so I try and keep it contained, but it keeps fucking spilling and I try to let it all out in the safety of my personal interests where I don't have to worry about rejection.

And when I'm interested in someone I try and test if the person is receptive to me by eye contact, and when she is, it's as if I try to give her a glimpse of the stormy seas through that, seeing how she reacts and if I can get lost in her own inner world while peeking through the window of her soul. It's a communication of intensity, or something like that.

Oddly enough I'd say that according to those pure instinctual descriptions, I relate in that order: Sx/Sp > So/Sx > Sx/So = Sp/Sx > Sp/So > So/Sp. I know, makes no sense lmao.



> @star tripper has that clear Sx/So energy and she understands how it works, too. You seem more like you're intellectually preening which is what Sx 6s (or head types) do. *But yeah.. your soc doesnt seem like it's "just there" in the background of some other instinct. It feels more.. all or nothing; like a muscle you forgot to use, especially in this last post and several from before the recent conversation about it.*


YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS, this is so perfectly worded !! Sx is the fixation, Sp is some unconscious thing that goes on in the background and that I don't really notice and So is the bull in the china shop with an on/off switch, either something I have to put all effort and consciousness into or that I simply forget altogether ! The muscle metaphor is flawless actually.



> Thing is , we all have all instincts so when someone is hitting me with "This is Sp, this is Sp" ... I can't deny that I do those things. I care about Sp; I need to survive; I even had a chronic illness. And I'm highly competitive achiever.
> 
> Then others ask, well maybe you're SxSp. But we get into the same problem wiht Soc. I do those things too. My first novel in my fantasy series is Soc > Sx, setting the premise of a world. There are major us/them, status climbing social themes. None of the characters are 4 either. Obviously it's something I like delving into.
> 
> So...in the end, all humans have all instincts.
> So "GOTCHA! YOU USE SOC!" doesn't always work.


Totally.



> It seems to me that the way you handle your Sx has a lack of Soc in it. Whereas the stuff that looks like "Soc" is intellectual awareness and preening.


Possible, I lack the perspective to say so myself. Anyone else feeling like that ?



> You also go back and forth as to whether you avoid upsetting people, then punch back hard. This might just be six, but I was briefly contemplating that it could be a thing about 'listening too much to other people's ideas to see what group you fall into.' That sounds like overthinking, I know. This is why I said I was percolating.


Lmao I noticed that too actually... In my personal life it does at least, but I didn't think it carried over to here. Well shit. No idea, but it could be attributed to Six, Fi PoLR and the SO muscle metaphor of earlier, so it's a pick your poison thing I suppose :/



> But yeah, I'll put my vote on Sx/Sp for now. Sorry for the lack of a compelling case. But it just makes the most sense.


It's alright, despite the lack of concrete evidence it's like I can instinctively "feel" we're on the same wavelength, the fact that you verbalized some things that I was only partially aware of through my writing here solidifies this idea. So yeah, still helpful for sure :kitteh:



> On my forum, we make collages, which tap into the unconscious. Using images from the internet that we put together. Would you be up for posting some in the visual typing thread and/or sending them to me on PM? My husband and I have a lot of experience reading collages (with success on our own forum) and we could offer our insights, though there's no expectation for you to "buy into" anything. If you think that kind of typing is shit, that's fine; I am not here to convince you but just to see if I can offer more insight which you're free to discard. Up to you.


I'm not against the idea and I would love to partake in it actually, if I had some slight confidence in my abilities to make a collage  Aside from my lack of skill in handling visual softwares, I'm at lost on where to search for art on the internet or whatnot, and often under the impression that I'm settling for less than my "inner vision" because it seems like too much inefficient work to find the "perfect piece" over google image...


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> But do you find SP matters to be the bulk of your conversations with people, seeing as how you mentioned me discussing SO topics ? Just curious cause I feel talking about health, or comfort or shopping isn’t the kind of stuff I use to engage a person. Don’t most people find that boring anyway ?


Honestly, that does cover much of my conversations. Health, medicine, STEM-ish stuff, gaming, comfort, privacy, autonomy, money, planning ahead... Okay, sure, not all of those are "pure SP," but that's a fair list of topics I talk about. Not shopping, I don't like shopping, but if I did I would likely talk about it. I'm the one who does talk about saving money, though, so I guess that might be the opposite of shopping.

I'm not immune to getting annoyed at people who are having a panic attack over "SP matters," because the world needs to Te the fuck up, but I have to admit to not finding those things "boring" at all. I don't find "SX matters" boring, either, though I often get... "overloaded" by SX-firsts, for lack of better phrasing.



Animal said:


> I just want to make this extra clear though. *I'm not blaming you for saying this,* since I never made it clear in this particular set of posts, though I have many times made this same argument in the past. I just ignored it here, since I wanted to have a healthy discussion of the roots of instincts and not to veer too far from that. Yes, the root of Soc, being aware of how much Society sucks, could drive a person to be quite the loner.
> Edit: @*Paradigm*
> When I say a 'healthy discussion of roots' and not veering too far ---- I don't mean that the rest of the convo was unhealthy. I thought you did a good job of covering the "anti-social soc" so I wanted to cover the root stuff in my own post.


Sure, no worries. I feel like we're basically looking and interpreting the same info but coming to different conclusions. Mainly I think we might be defining mid and last instincts a little differently. I see "all or nothing, stretching a muscle" as more mid behavior, whereas you're seemingly putting it as more fitting for last.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Likewise we were eating out at a restaurant the other day and one of the waitresses was a (very hot) girl that I knew from way back. She started poking me all excited "OMG OMG OMG Slime, It's Allison !! She works here !"


Gosh, this is so me when I was younger, I'm questioning my So lastness 
Remember there always being like...a really popular or pretty girl everyone loved who I talked about almost like I was in love with her even when I talked negatively about her lol, remember seeing one girl from high school at a grocery store and I had to tell my dad immediately "That's her!!!", I was so almost like "She goes to grocery stores too?😯" :laughing:
With that particular girl it was slightly sx-y because one friend said something like "Every guy would leave me to be with her" about that girl, think that's what really got me, but generally I was always a bit like that, also loved the idea of being in royal familiy, grandma and dad always joked about how I should marry prince Harry and such, feel like I tend to look at some people as something special and want to be connected to them in some way.
Or I constantly fought with this one girl in middle school who was really rich and had a personal driver but I couldn't stop talking about her and her driver and how extra she was, honestly it was almost like I felt proud of being so close to her I could fight with her? I never realized this before :blushed:

But I'm not like that at all anymore, ever since I left high school (and it's been about 4 years), I don't notice anything social and my energy is sp/sx-y, I'm so isolated and I forget it until someone brings it up, I'm just so out of everything, I'm very self focused, obsessive and obsessively sx focused, unconsciously careful about where my time and energy go, with So things I feel I'm more like...out of sight, out of mind, it's hard to get me into So state of mind, or like always feel the only reason i had some friends growing up was because I had to see people at school every day, as soon as that's gone my social life and focus seem to disappear completely, it becomes optional and I don't want it when it's optional,now at college I know only one person and with everyone else I'm like...don't have anyone else to say even 'hi' and 'bye' and this one person can be too much at times.


Sorry, feel free to ignore, your post just inspired me.


As for your type, I'm considering So but think sx/sp seems good, I don't think I've ever seen as 6 who wasn't a bit So-ish in similar way to you (could be they were all mistyped as so last but...)
Have to say, I thought you could be a 3w4 core before I saw that post about things I don't understand enough to sum up what you said


----------



## Dangerose

(again, why am I social?)

I really don't think I'm so-last but I can't even explain it to myself

Also, heavens above that risk post, it's funny because people act like I take a lot of risks and in a way I am oblivious to danger and such but for like ordinary things

Would never want someone's ear bleeding all over me, and as a kid I would have never spent the night in the forest lolol, my friend and I were always too scared to sleep all night in the tent in our backyard XD

And I don't want to dieeeee and most of those things feel like 'why would I do that anyway'

(I know it was said it was not type-related but still, really makes me feel not sp-last)


----------



## Darkbloom

Reminds me how once I went to a class trip in middle school and most people got so drunk (not me and my friend) and everyone was like vomiting and their friends were helping clean it up and such and it seemed just gross to me, was thankful I didn't have to deal with that and I remember saying "Why is everyone helping them, it's their fault they got drunk!", really wanted people to like decide to leave them on the street to teach them a lesson :laughing:
But now I feel like I missed out tbh 

(could anyone see so/sp?)




Nissa Nissa said:


> (again, why am I social?)


Does this have anything to do with my post? 



> I really don't think I'm so-last but I can't even explain it to myself


Yeah, not sure, remember seeing so last at some point but...



> Also, heavens above that risk post, it's funny because people act like I take a lot of risks and in a way I am oblivious to danger and such but for like ordinary things
> 
> Would never want someone's ear bleeding all over me, and as a kid I would have never spent the night in the forest lolol, my friend and I were always too scared to sleep all night in the tent in our backyard XD
> 
> And I don't want to dieeeee and most of those things feel like 'why would I do that anyway'
> 
> (I know it was said it was not type-related but still, really makes me feel not sp-last)


:laughing:

Same with not even seeing the point of doing most of those risky things, not sure what it says about instincts.

But also feel like I'm such a weirdly slow developing person, like for the longest time I couldn't understand alcohol at all and now it's like interesting to me I guess, generally now I suddenly feel like I've missed out on things, maybe someone's ear bleeding on me is what I've been needing all along.


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Reminds me how once I went to a class trip in middle school and most people got so drunk (not me and my friend) and everyone was like vomiting and their friends were helping clean it up and such and it seemed just gross to me, was thankful I didn't have to deal with that and I remember saying "Why is everyone helping them, it's their fault they got drunk!", really wanted people to like decide to leave them on the street to teach them a lesson :laughing:
> But now I feel like I missed out tbh
> 
> (could anyone see so/sp?)


:laughing:
(I was so disgusted with the bulk of my classmates in general in middle school, not sure how I would have reacted to that, probably just would have felt like I was chained in a bed of iniquity)
And not really, seems strange



> Does this have anything to do with my post?


No, just the conversation about social, didn't have time to respond properly to things



> Same with not even seeing the point of doing most of those risky things, not sure what it says about instincts.
> 
> But also feel like I'm such a weirdly slow developing person, like for the longest time I couldn't understand alcohol at all and now it's like interesting to me I guess, generally now I suddenly feel like I've missed out on things, maybe someone's ear bleeding on me is what I've been needing all along.


probably

_________________________

sometimes I feel really Si+Teish, probably just my lower functions, often with actual STJs though

Like today I was tidying the duvet/blanket collection for this lady who I'd type as ESTJ 1 probably, she kept coming over to 'see how I was doing' and unfolding fitting sheets I'd already folded really neatly to see if they were in the right category (turned out...they were), then moving things I'd already categorized into different places for no apparent reason and :frustrating:

or she had me tidy one room that was really disorganized, hate cleaning other people's things but it was messy enough that it was pretty fun, made it look a lot better and I was happy, then several days later she came in to look for something, I'd given every shelf its own particular category (bird stuff, office stuff, etc), should've been easy to tell where things were but she was looking at all kinds of odd places and ignoring my explanations and then moving things into the wrong category, drove me crazy

(I actually love organizing things and moving things from a state of confusion and chaos to order and beauty lol, never keep up my own things though)


----------



## owlet

Tad Cooper said:


> Not too out of the blue as it's been suggested!
> 
> I'm unsure about it. I've had it suggested and thought of it as my type for a little while, but I really dont like being needed, I like to come and go rather than be relied on (I dont mind it in the short term but not in the long run!) What seems like 2 about me?


I was just wondering if you've considered it. With 2 it's not feeling they're lovable as they are and so often doing things for others to be 'lovable'. Does that sound right at all?



Tad Cooper said:


> I hope not!!
> What would be good to elaborate on? (Sorry, I'm unsure!)
> The end goal really can't be described (its very unclear, more of a feeling). I think I can tell what to avoid as I go, but cant see it coming until it happens (I have made quite a lot of decisions when asked and without extensive thought i.e. being asked to choose my research for my master's degree - I basically had a good feeling towards one area and went for that).
> I dont tend to work for praise, but am encouraged by it if Im feeling unsure with the subject - if Im unsure Im doing my job right and someone says Im doing well then I am reassured. Im quite happy doing something that I find interesting and others dont, but if people take an interest in what Im doing I want to do it at least fairly well/average and not badly.
> I replied to nissa nissa above with fears etc if that helps?


Hmm, can you say more about what you relate to with specific types?



Nissa Nissa said:


> Interesting, I'm like...my whole family hates me because I always want the TV louder, opposite) physical things aren't usually 'too much' but a little bit annoys me, like some little noise will drive me crazy but loud noises are even nice, I don't get overwhelmed with things (I associate that with Si? but idk, probably not really)


I think that sounds more like a sensory issue than Si as it's more intrusive. Have you looked into that kind of thing recently? If it's not much of a problem, then it doesn't matter too much, but if it causes any problems it might be helpful to read about managing it!



> yeah (and thanks for the Japan fact, know nearly nothing about that culture!)


That's okay - I did a mini study on the colonisation of the Ainu (in terms of linguistic imperialism) which was really interesting and also very depressing, but if you like history, it's something I'd recommend.



> well I saw this like two hours and have been trying to think of something, but I can't really, not sure if there's been an opportunity for me to do so at any point in my life
> Remember group projects in school...didn't care for them, I'd either try to make the project my own or I'd just do nothing, I remember doing something about WWI when I was 10 or something, they wanted me to do something but it really confused me and I didn't feel like I could get a word in edgewise and I said I'd do my own section about literature in WWI, they were really angry because it was supposed to be about the actual war but they hadn't really left me space to do anything related to that :frustrating:
> 
> Honestly I'm a little too self-involved to want to be a 'part' of something, in my defense I just don't find group things that interesting (don't like to listen to choirs for example, with exceptions), but in school I played viola in orchestra and I was always kinda waiting for solo opportunities (all those great viola solos you hear about...), it was a little confusing to me to be a part of the orchestra because just aurally it wasn't like I could hear myself playing, didn't feel like I was changing anything about how the music was so it was a little boring for me (I know this isn't what social is, understanding dynamics of orchestras, but this is generally how I feel about groups...) vs in choir, also wanted solos even though I had an awful voice lol because I wanted attention, but it confused me again where my voice was going and I was always scared I was off key so I'd just pretend to sing, always told my parents like 'it's completely pointless for me to be in this choir because I don't know how to sing with the choir, didn't get along with the other students but they didn't let me quit because it was good for me to part of something, don't know their logic there
> 
> (Ended up going with another friend, a 4, who has a really, really good voice and she was always sad she didn't get solos, I was always furious with the choir director for not giving them to her, still don't know why he didn't, think he overlooked her because she didn't have a really bubbly so-first positive type personality and :frustrating
> 
> haven't really belonged to any other groups, not sure what I'd say I was a 'part of', think it's a little deceptive though because it just hasn't come up and I might be overlooking something
> 
> Groups can make me feel a little claustrophobic in general, hate the feeling that I 'owe' people a part of my time or that they think they rely on me for something, I like situations where I can go in and out, I've stopped going to churches/college courses because I felt like people were trying to make a personal connection and include me, ahaha, I don't like the feeling of having to explain myself or that people are going to remember some fact I said in conversation and bring it up some other day, it's petty but it just feels :frustrating:
> @*Vixey* posted this quote once, I think about it a lot, very interpretable but I guess similar to the above, the way I relate, in a way I hate having acquaintances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (But more if they're solely my acquaintances, I enjoy my family's acquaintances, love meeting my friends' friends, I just don't want people who are all my responsibility, probably not an instinct thing at all)
> 
> But if I became famous for example it would probably be different


How about in terms of just your view on things, like seeing how people are contributing or not, or how people fit in or don't? Is that an area you pay a lot of attention to in general? Also, how would it be different if you were famous? How would you want it to be?



> I don't know
> I'd say partly that it was the way I was raised, would vaguely say that my family values traditional edcuation, probably not enough to make a difference, but I enjoy self-improvement, I'm not very intellectual but reading books is an obvious way for it, I've mentioned before that I always wanted to be more challenged and I was always jealous of people in books who were forced to study Greek and Latin and such (not that I've ever properly tackled those beasts), I also...I don't know, it irritates me a lot to hear something I don't understand, I have very low tolerance for acronyms that I don't know what they stand for, it's just like this annoying bit of fuzz in my vision, so I don't like to see something about Milton and not have read Milton, can feel like cutting corners to just skip to things I like, and I want to get rid of all the cloud banks in my intellectual understanding of the world. I want everything to be so clear to me that it's not difficult at all, I want to know dates of historical figures, my idea of reading classics isn't that they're the _best_ books but it's like tidying, you get rid of the biggest things first and that seems the most weighty thing and then everything is so much clearer and falls into place, it's like putting up pillars and structure and I naturally give myself space to do what's interesting to me, I go off on a lot of tangents. Or I see classic novels and that kind of thing as hubs, train stations where all the trains change, it's easier to get around if you know those, you see the outline of the whole thing and then you can get down to details, fill the whole thing in
> 
> The other thing is, I really forgot how to read in school because I ended up having so much homework that I didn't have time to read for pleasure, before that I would pick up random books from the shelves and just start reading them, think it was a better way but I lost that skill so I had to direct myself to read and it made the most sense to focus on classic novels
> 
> But I also want to be seen as an educated person I guess :/ well, I don't want to have not read something that will make someone go 'you haven't read _that_???' and I do like bragging rights lol (forgot to illustrate any of these stories with how I read War and Peace in the original Russian, where can I add that in?..)
> 
> (Reminds me, used to be really picky about reading things in the original, would avoid reading books if I didn't understand the language very well yet but felt I would someday, felt like cheating, still does actually but I've given up mostly, some things bother me that I read them in English. but I just really like 'original' things, like learning Disney songs in the princess's 'original' language XD)
> 
> And well, used to have a list of books, my feeling about it was that I couldn't get married/meet the love of my life until I finished the list, had a lot of similar lists, felt like becoming a 'complete' person (or I just wanted to give myself a false sense of progress)
> 
> But I'm less anal-retentive now, maybe because I finished all my lists and nothing happened :laughing: and I feel stupider than ever lol, luckily it was never really about intelligence


That's interesting! I can kind of understand wishing to have learnt a language earlier on - I didn't pay attention in French classes because the teacher was unpleasant (and I was absent from school a lot) and, although I don't really want to know French, it would have been nice to have an interesting language taught then which I wanted to study (Latin and Greek seem pretty interesting, but also have very little use these days).
With the wanting to seem educated etc. would you say that links to possible type 3, or a w3? It sounds a bit like that to me at least. It could be what comes across as your SO-focus is more along those lines (not sure, just a random thought).



> I don't want to die and find out that there was something I missed, life is horrifyingly short and I want to get the most out of it
> I think it's perfectly fine to experience life in one house, reading the same stories, thinking of the same things, it's quality, not quantity, but I think that would be wasted on me at this point. I want 'no song unsung, no wine untasted'.


This sounds potentially type 7 - could you go into this more? 



> I love Wilkie Collins :kitteh: my tradition is to read him whenever I have a cold, one of the reasons I enjoy that :kitteh:


Ahh, in that case I do understand enjoying having a cold - his books are really good.




> I guess (I mean, it's a children's book more or less haha)
> I don't know, it kinda annoys me to have to have a plot in the first place, and I'm stupid with coming up with social awareness things, it's not really obvious to me how things would play out


Oh, I see. How do you mean having a plot in the first place? Like a very set plot you have to follow, or one with an intent? Or something else?



mistakenforstranger said:


> I want to discuss my sp instinct, because I'm not sure if I am, but then in other ways, it does make sense too. I thought I'd pull these quotes from you, owlet, since I see you as sp, and I want to bounce this off of you (or others too).
> 
> See, all of this I am _terrible_ at! I'm so bad at being practical, and yet, I do see this in people who have sp, like they care about eating the right foods, wearing the comfortable clothes (I like a little bit of comfort too, but it isn't a priority), staying healthy/safe, working to ensure their material security, and I think they are "neurotic" about it too. I've seen sp-doms worry about finances, worry about health to the point of going to chiropractors/taking all these vitamins/supplements to ensure their health. Whereas I just work out to stay sane basically and because at this point I know it's good for me to do, eat when I have to, even ignore eating if it takes me away from other things, like I should be eating right now, but I'm writing on here haha, and I do this constantly. I never learn. I don't know if I'm sp-last level, like when I think of that, I think of how David Bowie would only eat one raw egg a day, and I'm like, that's so unhealthy! I barely eat much myself, but I don't think I would take it to that extreme, and it is a very extreme example.
> 
> Now, this more true for me, but couldn't energy levels be related to 5 too? I do focus on my survival, though. I won't do anything truly reckless to endanger myself (There have been times, but only because I don't think of the consequences at the time), and can even be a little too safe, but I also feel like sp-doms are usually saying to me, "You need to take better care of yourself", and I agree, but I just don't worry about it either until it becomes a problem. Though, my means of comparison to sp-doms here usually have 1, 2, or 6 at play here too. Still, when I hear some of the things from sp-lasts, like @*Animal*'s recent post about taking risks, I'm just like...:shocked: I was actually like that towards my sx/so 7 friend, like I say she needs to watch and take care of herself better, so I guess it's all a bit relative.


It's basically that the SP-first type will prioritise their wellbeing over that of other things. For me, I think not taking care of your body well purposefully (as some people I've known have done just to be 'edgy') is irresponsible. If your body fails, you die. Your body has a massive impact on your mind because your mind is a part of the body. Like I've had periods of not eating or sleeping well (mostly due to depression) but I also know that's very irresponsible and I try my best to avoid that kind of thing. Unfortunately, I have some health issues which make it very difficult at times to keep up a routine I know would be best for me.



> I agree that sx can be over-the-top in the descriptions, but then I don't see why this sx, as I've been saying before. I do this all the time. I stay up too late. I have pretty bad discipline. I don't care about eating/sleeping, if there's something more interesting to do, and I pursue it as an obsession. I am one of the most obsessive people I know, but I also don't see this "obsession" extend to romantic relationships. I can be almost laissez-faire when it comes to them, and they are few and far between. Although, I don't like when someone I'm interested in is receiving more attention from a "rival" partner and that really makes me feel worthless, but it isn't a preoccupation either. I even feel this among friends too, like if I'm not the "best friend" to someone (Think of how Barney is with Ted, "No, I'm your best friend, Ted" yet we all know Marshall is Ted's best friend. Hated HIMYM and Barney btw lol, but it's sort of like that), if they would rather be with them instead of me, it makes me rather uncomfortable when I see that "closeness" between them that I don't have, and I'll try to be that "one" for them, so I do sort of see this "special someone" dynamic in me, but it isn't really _romantic_. And yet, other times, if it's someone else who I don't want that from, I won't really care. Usually the people (or, rather persons since I mean this in an individual sense as opposed to a group of people) who want to be with me, I don't want to be with, and the people I want to be with, don't want to be with me haha.
> 
> Now, I do see @*Animal* as very clearly sx, and she has said this that she has had romantic obsessions over partners or potential mates, and yes, that I clearly see being sx in nature. I do it too, but not to that extent. They do not occupy my every waking hour. It's a lot less on my radar. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think being obsessed with a video game, or just anything like that, really cuts sx for me. I really see sx-doms as feeling like they aren't complete unless they have another. Why would a video game complete a sx-dom, you know? It's sort of like this quote I found from Slash recently that shows his sp/sx, like his guitar is the same thing as the video-game:
> 
> "Melissa and I really cared for each other, but we still broke up and made up often, usually as a result of my commitment to learning to play guitar overshadowing my commitment to spending time with her."


You don't need to be obsessive in romantic relationships to be SX - in fact, being obsessive in romantic relationships is very unhealthy. The point was that if something invigorates and SX-first they're likely to do it 'to death', taking everything they can from it because it gives them that particular sense. Or, if something which was invigorating to them becomes not so, they're likely to drop it and move on to something which does.
Remember, I don't agree with romantic/sexual = SX, so we may just disagree on that.


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> I was just wondering if you've considered it. With 2 it's not feeling they're lovable as they are and so often doing things for others to be 'lovable'. Does that sound right at all?
> 
> 
> Hmm, can you say more about what you relate to with specific types?


Hmm no, I dont really think about if Im lovable or not, more if things are getting done and in an efficient/sensible way...
Sure, what sort of things would be useful to know about?


----------



## owlet

Tad Cooper said:


> Hmm no, I dont really think about if Im lovable or not, more if things are getting done and in an efficient/sensible way...
> Sure, what sort of things would be useful to know about?


Basically, if you go through the types and say why you do/don't relate to their core fears and motivations, but also read up on them (filtering out behavioural aspects) to get an overall sense of what they're like. That would be very helpful!


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> What makes you strive for perfection and doing the right thing? I think motivations are very important for enneagram as a lot of types overlap in that sort of thing.


Ah good point. For some reason I've always been very judgemental when I think someone has done something wrong. I guess because doing something wrong, like breaking the rules for example, just causes disruption - rules are there for a reason and nothing good comes out of breaking them. I want to do the right thing to avoid guilt maybe, to avoid feelings of regret or embarrassment.
I don't like unfairness, disregard for other people, showing a lack of conscience or consideration, etc. It has always bothered me, not sure why.



Tad Cooper said:


> With 4/5/6 I think they are all fairly withdrawn in a lot of ways, is there anything more than makes you think any of them?


I would rule out 6 maybe, if not trusting your inner guidance is characteristic of 6. I don't know anything else about type 4 apart from the focus on identity and authenticity.


----------



## Paradigm

Wisteria said:


> I would rule out 6 maybe, if not trusting your inner guidance is characteristic of 6.


No. Type 6 doesn't trust anything, not _just_ their inner guidance. 6s are incredibly varied and the more obvious ones are the ones that clutch onto an external system (though, it should be noted that _any_ type can clutch onto those, which is why religion is so popular). There's plenty of 6s who trust themselves _more than_ the external, but the more self-aware ones will admit they don't even trust themselves 100%; the less self-aware ones likely just mistype because of this common misconception.

And while we're at it, this internal/external dynamic is not an indicator of wing.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> Honestly, that does cover much of my conversations. Health, medicine, STEM-ish stuff, gaming, comfort, privacy, autonomy, money, planning ahead... Okay, sure, not all of those are "pure SP," but that's a fair list of topics I talk about. Not shopping, I don't like shopping, but if I did I would likely talk about it. I'm the one who does talk about saving money, though, so I guess that might be the opposite of shopping.
> 
> I'm not immune to getting annoyed at people who are having a panic attack over "SP matters," because the world needs to Te the fuck up, but I have to admit to not finding those things "boring" at all. I don't find "SX matters" boring, either, though I often get... "overloaded" by SX-firsts, for lack of better phrasing.


Ewww, maybe you are Gamma after all ^^'

@Vixey

I think it's the first time we interact so I couldn't say, but I'll just say that I'm not surprised you and Nissa get along cause I get similar vibes from you  Maybe it's worth exploring in some way, be it MBTT or Enneagram.

As for your current state, do you actually feel happy like that ? That level of loneliness (well maybe you don't see it like that) would drive me crazy I think. Like, I could probably "get used to it" and convince myself it's better like that, but I know myself enough that it makes me miserable and irritable.

I think @mistakenforstranger might relate well to what you're saying, so maybe he's actually Sp/Sx or you're Sp/So, who knows.



> Have to say, I thought you could be a 3w4 core before I saw that post about things I don't understand enough to sum up what you said


You know, every time you guys say you see me as a 3w4, I interpret it as "god you're way too sexy, and smart, and self assured, and wise, and suave to be a Six"  Not a bad feeling at all, but probably distorted imo. I'm still a mess putting up a front, and I'm not all that great.

As for my weirdly abstract post, I'd say it's the kind of topic only 4w5s and 5w4s would give a shit about here, so don't feel bad over it. Pleasant surprise that you still read it though, if I didn't have such an abstract bend I'd have probably gone "these...seem to be words... Eh, skip."


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> which is why religion is so popular












(will respond to other things...tomorrow or something, forgot how to respond intelligently to posts)


----------



## Wisteria

Paradigm said:


> No. Type 6 doesn't trust anything, not _just_ their inner guidance. 6s are incredibly varied and the more obvious ones are the ones that clutch onto an external system (though, it should be noted that _any_ type can clutch onto those, which is why religion is so popular). There's plenty of 6s who trust themselves _more than_ the external, but the more self-aware ones will admit they don't even trust themselves 100%; the less self-aware ones likely just mistype because of this common misconception.
> 
> And while we're at it, this internal/external dynamic is not an indicator of wing.


Why do 6s not trust anything, and if any type can follow an external system or belief what reason would a type 6 do this in particular? 

Do 6s feel like they cannot rely on authority or anything like that for guidance? That is strange because what I've read about type 6 is sort of contradictory, something along the lines of relying on an authority for guidance then/or rebelling against it. 

What is the internal/external dynamic?


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> As for your current state, do you actually feel happy like that ? That level of loneliness (well maybe you don't see it like that) would drive me crazy I think. Like, I could probably "get used to it" and convince myself it's better like that, but I know myself enough that it makes me miserable and irritable.


I know this wasn't directed at me, but personally I really appreciate time spent on my own. I don't really feel lonely ever and just work on personal projects or read or play video games. I don't really ever feel bored either.


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> I know this wasn't directed at me, but personally I really appreciate time spent on my own. I don't really feel lonely ever and just work on personal projects or read or play video games. I don't really ever feel bored either.


So do I, that wasn’t at all what I was getting at.

I’m talking about having only one person to interact with IN COLLEGE and on occasions, that would drive me crazy.

Edit: I do get bored easily on my own now though, more so than when I was younger.


----------



## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> Ewww, maybe you are Gamma after all ^^'


Fwiw my father is an ENTJ, Sx/Sp, and he is nothing like this. I think it's Sp.
[Though.. I'm not commenting one way or other on @Paradigm 's type; all I know for sure is she's Te ego.]



> You know, every time you guys say you see me as a 3w4, I interpret it as "god you're way too sexy, and smart, and self assured, and wise, and suave to be a Six"  Not a bad feeling at all, but probably distorted imo. I'm still a mess putting up a front, and I'm not all that great.


This is how I feel when people tell me I have a loud 3 wing or , long in the past, suggested core 3. Feels like I won the lottery. It's no fair.. my best friend who we had mistyped as an 8 is actually a 3. He won the lottery. I knew he won the personality-looks-smarts lottery ever since we were young!!!! 



> As for my weirdly abstract post, I'd say it's the kind of topic only 4w5s and 5w4s would give a shit about here, so don't feel bad over it. Pleasant surprise that you still read it though, if I didn't have such an abstract bend I'd have probably gone "these...seem to be words... Eh, skip."


I'll answer stuff soon.  Loved the posts.
[Dunno what that says about me....]


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> So do I, that wasn’t at all what I was getting at.
> 
> I’m talking about having only one person to interact with IN COLLEGE and on occasions, that would drive me crazy.


I was talking about significant periods on my own. Hmm, why was it a problem to just have the one person?


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> (will respond to other things...tomorrow or something, forgot how to respond intelligently to posts)


Either use your words or don't reply to me with passive-aggressive gifs. Gifs are just a pathetic method of interaction; try to actually address the topic, instead.



Wisteria said:


> Why do 6s not trust anything, and if any type can follow an external system or belief what reason would a type 6 do this in particular?


I didn't say "6 does that in particular," I "implied" that the marker of relying on external systems is not the best, or only, or reliable indicator of 6. Their relationship with trust is the best marker - in that, to restate, they don't trust anything 100% (edit: _along with_ this trust issue being a recurring problem in their lives). Given that every type is capable of relying on an external system to feel more comfortable in/with the world, it doesn't make sense to pin it on 6.



> Do 6s feel like they cannot rely on authority or anything like that for guidance? That is strange because what I've read about type 6 is sort of contradictory, something along the lines of relying on an authority for guidance then/or rebelling against it.


So why do you think some 6s are "rebels," if the supposed marker of 6 is that they don't trust themselves? To me, the entire act of rebellion implies that they're thinking for themselves, and trusting themselves over the external systems.



> What is the internal/external dynamic?


The one I just described, whether they trust themselves (internal) or an "external system." I mentioned wings because a lot of people like to correlate "independent thinking" with 6w5 and its opposite with 6w7. I would also say that it's not perfectly correlated to Phobic or Counterphobic, though _sometimes_ there's a correlation.
(Not to imply _you personally_ were doing so, because you really weren't, but I figured a ton of other people would read that besides you.)

---

Edit2: I'm not comfortable answering "why" for a whole type. There's a lot of different theories out there on "why," anyway. I like this guess the most, but I'm not saying _every _6 will like it the most:


> According to A. H. Almaas, the type Six personality most directly experiences and suffers from a loss of "basic trust" in the goodness of the universe. This loss of basic trust is the very condition of fallen existence, and thus attaches to all of the fixations, but Sixes experience it at the very core of their consciousness. And it is this most basic and fundamental emotion which must be dealt with directly and defeated if the Six is to achieve true liberation.


https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/sixes/


----------



## Dangerose

edit: too tired to filter out parts I don't want, point was pretty pointless anyway


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> Either use your words or don't reply to me with passive-aggressive gifs. Gifs are just a pathetic method of interaction; try to actually address the topic, instead.


Seemed like a cheap jab at religion to me or at the very least a lazy example, didn't think it merited a serious response (and I think gifs are lovely and charming and Very Cool)

I think it's fairly silly to say that 'religion is so popular' because people want an external system to clutch, at least on the same level that 'government' or 'language' or are popular as external systems to grasp at, either too obvious to mention (people live in the external world, which contains systems) or paints religion as a security blanket that people grasp at so someone else can do the thinking for them, maybe that's not what you meant but that's what I heard, if I'm wrong I'm sorry.










(just like this quote lol, not a rebuttal exactly, just came to mind)


----------



## Animal

@Nissa Nissa @Paradigm
Off-topic from OP, but this is a thought-provoking article on religion and its purpose in society, as well as the rising trend of people denouncing the well-established religions. I don't fully agree with the premise but it's interesting and relevant to your rebuttal Nissa, nonetheless.

Our Search for Meaning and the Dangers of Possession - Quillette


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> Seemed like a cheap jab at religion to me or at the very least a lazy example, didn't think it merited a serious response (and I think gifs are lovely and charming and Very Cool)
> 
> I think it's fairly silly to say that 'religion is so popular' because people want an external system to clutch, at least on the same level that 'government' or 'language' or are popular as external systems to grasp at, either too obvious to mention (people live in the external world, which contains systems) or paints religion as a security blanket that people grasp at so someone else can do the thinking for them, maybe that's not what you meant but that's what I heard, if I'm wrong I'm sorry.


A language doesn't provide a belief system, though? I thought it would be a given that "external system" would be taken as "belief system." It wasn't a jab, just an intent to quickly/easily get the point across by using "religion" as an example than type out "like the way people use any number of external belief systems as an identity or guide." Religion - _any and all religions_ - is the oldest and most widespread example of this, except maybe nationality; examples like "philosophical schools" or "identity politics" and whatnot are comparatively new*, so it wouldn't have had the same effect/connotation; "nationality" wouldn't have, either, because many are drifting away from conscious nationalism.
*Philosophy outside of religion wasn't really taught to a significant portion of the human population, afaik, which is what I mean by "new." I know Plato is old as dirt, but how many people really knew about him until recent history?

But no, not a "jab." I find your reaction confusing, though. Was it the religion bit being preceived as an attack, or was some different interpretation of "external systems"? If the latter, how else would you have interpreted the quote, given the "not trusting their inner guidance" is almost always followed by "...therefore believing in an external belief system"?

Edit: Actually... Rethinking, using the word "clutch" wasn't intended as an insult, it was more a reflection on the stereotype being used, and it was just a stylistic preference to keep using it and inadvertently ascribing it to religion.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> See, all of this I am _terrible_ at! I'm so bad at being practical, and yet, I do see this in people who have sp, like they care about eating the right foods, wearing the comfortable clothes (I like a little bit of comfort too, but it isn't a priority), staying healthy/safe, working to ensure their material security, and I think they are "neurotic" about it too. I've seen sp-doms worry about finances, worry about health to the point of going to chiropractors/taking all these vitamins/supplements to ensure their health. Whereas I just work out to stay sane basically and because at this point I know it's good for me to do, eat when I have to, even ignore eating if it takes me away from other things, like I should be eating right now, but I'm writing on here haha, and I do this constantly. I never learn. I don't know if I'm sp-last level, like when I think of that, I think of how David Bowie would only eat one raw egg a day, and I'm like, that's so unhealthy! I barely eat much myself, but I don't think I would take it to that extreme, and it is a very extreme example.


No idea how to judge sp-ness but some of this sounds like Si and you probably don't value Si I think, so it could be a factor?



> Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think being obsessed with a video game, or just anything like that, really cuts sx for me. I really see sx-doms as feeling like they aren't complete unless they have another. Why would a video game complete a sx-dom, you know?


agree



> Also, @*Nissa Nissa* I hate being a part of groups, or at least when it came to school, I _loathed_ group work. I think it has something to do with being forced to interact with people in your class you want nothing to do with haha, the awkwardness of it all, and also because I'd rather work things out on my own too. I don't like having to depend on the group. I also loathe team sports. I was never good at them, and always would see myself as the weakest link on the team, even if I wasn't, and that I was letting the team lose/down (I mean, there's still a focus on Social here too), so I think it depends on the specific context too. I enjoy sports where I can be on my own, running, swimming, working out at home, like I refuse to go to the gym to work out among people, tried it, no thanks, mostly because I'm self-conscious of my body.


well I hated all sports anyways :laughing: and I was always miserable in gym (I remember making my badminton partner cry and then hitting her  don't remember why, I was usually very nice)

used to go jogging at 4 in the morning so no one could see me, made it really unlikely I would keep up a jogging habit XD



> Anyways, I don't think I'm social-last, but I find in these specific instances I will _seem_ social-last too. I even spent the good part of my freshman year at college away from everyone, looking rather down on them all, never wanting to participate/contribute in their fun because I thought I was too good for it, but I was also so miserable from it too. I almost became a part of a fraternity too in my first week to "belong", but it wasn't like your typical jock-style frat, very much the "cool-kid" anti-frat full of druggies and wannabe beatniks you could say, but I refused again, because I didn't want to be a part of the group and had other plans for myself.


So so4 

Anyways, agree about these things, makes sense

Was planning to respond to more but now I don't remember what 



ElectricSlime said:


> I also fit better with contra flow, but I feel that I'm definitely more synflow when I'm healthy


Well, synflow/contraflow thing is kinda healthy/unhealthy anyways, isn't it?))


> Just an interesting thought: Byron aka the Sx/So posterboy, was anorexic, would starve himself on a few potatoes and vinegar, and "worked out" with warm, thick clothes to lose even more weight. It does seem like a strong neurosis and concern for a SP blindpost.


I'd happily live on potatoes alone but why ruin them with vinegar
Probably because it made him lose weight I realize but ugh



owlet said:


> I think that sounds more like a sensory issue than Si as it's more intrusive. Have you looked into that kind of thing recently? If it's not much of a problem, then it doesn't matter too much, but if it causes any problems it might be helpful to read about managing it!


Well, it's probably fine for now, have enough problems without worrying about that XD



> That's okay - I did a mini study on the colonisation of the Ainu (in terms of linguistic imperialism) which was really interesting and also very depressing, but if you like history, it's something I'd recommend.


Thanks!



> How about in terms of just your view on things, like seeing how people are contributing or not, or how people fit in or don't? Is that an area you pay a lot of attention to in general? Also, how would it be different if you were famous? How would you want it to be?


I don't think I think that much about how much people are contributing, though I do focus on like...hate feeling like someone's being left out or people aren't laughing at their jokes, I'll notice that kind of thing and try to provide some sort of balance, so I think I do notice if people fit in or not, I notice hierarchy and know like...'no one will listen if x says something', other social dynamics I think I'm more or less aware of (of course judging one's own awareness of things is tricky XD)

And, I don't know why I said that, often imagine myself as a famous person (well, I use 'talk show/panel show' format for my daydreams a lot, not sure if it has to do with being famous exactly, but you have to be famous to be on those :laughing: so I think that's where it comes from) and imagine myself being social and knowing people and having a concern for my...standing?

And I like to imagine myself as holding a Parisian Belle Epoque salon :butterfly:

Not sure if it's worth mentioning though, imagine all kinds of things

(But yeah don't think it's so-last for sure)



> That's interesting! I can kind of understand wishing to have learnt a language earlier on - I didn't pay attention in French classes because the teacher was unpleasant (and I was absent from school a lot) and, although I don't really want to know French, it would have been nice to have an interesting language taught then which I wanted to study (Latin and Greek seem pretty interesting, but also have very little use these days).


Yeah I never learn languages to be useful :laughing:
(But yeah, often wished I could have learned more things in school)


> With the wanting to seem educated etc. would you say that links to possible type 3, or a w3? It sounds a bit like that to me at least. It could be what comes across as your SO-focus is more along those lines (not sure, just a random thought).


I don't know  tbh it doesn't feel like it comes from anywhere, imagine it's mixed in with image type, probably partly Ne (I also misunderstood things a lot as a kid, on one level I don't understand the value of education in a...practical sense so it came across more like a virtue, or something, there are a lot of factors I think)



> This sounds potentially type 7 - could you go into this more?


yes, but tomorrow, completely lost track of time!

edit: And will follow up on the religion thing tomorrow as well!


----------



## ElectricSlime

Animal said:


> Fwiw my father is an ENTJ, Sx/Sp, and he is nothing like this. I think it's Sp.
> [Though.. I'm not commenting one way or other on @Paradigm 's type; all I know for sure is she's Te ego.]


Yeah, Te creative for sure. Te leading is pretty out of the question imo, she doesn't have the focus on proactivity and productivity that they have, and she does vibe very Fi to me, which would point towards a Fi HA. I have a hunch that people can sometimes over identify with their HA, which would explain why I keep giving a look at typing as EIE.



> This is how I feel when people tell me I have a loud 3 wing or , long in the past, suggested core 3. Feels like I won the lottery. It's no fair.. my best friend who we had mistyped as an 8 is actually a 3. He won the lottery. I knew he won the personality-looks-smarts lottery ever since we were young!!!!


Well if you guys mistyped him as an 8 I would guess he has an arrogant swagger and isn't the easiest person for everyone to get along with, which is good cause there are few things more frustrating than a lottery winner you can't even resent because he/she is too sweet 

But leaving 4 aside completely, that was one of my rebuttals against 3, that according to the snippets of your life I've come across (about your singing, and writing and stuff) and just overall focus on achieving, I think you're more 3ish than I am. Cause while I'm very competitive, I'm not so much ambitious and active in the outside world about chasing after trophies, taking part in activities that will get me recognition and prestige and the likes. Anyway gonna stop here, cause I'll develop more in my post (that I'll write when I've gotten some sleep, probably, I hope)



> I'll answer stuff soon.  Loved the posts.
> [Dunno what that says about me....]


You're cool in my book is what it says :wink: But yeah, I dunno... Existentialism is usually tied to Beta NF, as is the romantic movement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> Yeah, Te creative for sure. Te leading is pretty out of the question imo, she doesn't have the focus on proactivity and productivity that they have, and she does vibe very Fi to me, which would point towards a Fi HA. I have a hunch that people can sometimes over identify with their HA, which would explain why I keep giving a look at typing as EIE.


Yes, Te secondary. Agreed.



> Well if you guys mistyped him as an 8 I would guess he has an arrogant swagger and isn't the easiest person for everyone to get along with, which is good cause there are few things more frustrating than a lottery winner you can't even resent because he/she is too sweet


Both of us are 8 fix second and hard to get along with for people who can't handle us. I consider that a good thing, though. As my 784 father says, "If nobody hates you, you're doing something wrong."
It's not that I like being hated. I don't (although I'm less bothered by it than some, and in some cases it's flattering). But it's worth it for the sake of being true to myself.



> But leaving 4 aside completely, that was one of my rebuttals against 3, that according to the snippets of your life I've come across (about your singing, and writing and stuff) and just overall focus on achieving, I think you're more 3ish than I am. Cause while I'm very competitive, I'm not so much ambitious and active in the outside world about chasing after trophies, taking part in activities that will get me recognition and prestige and the likes. Anyway gonna stop here, cause I'll develop more in my post (that I'll write when I've gotten some sleep, probably, I hope)


This is a misread of me. I have never chased after achievements. Ever.

Edit @*ElectricSlime*
To perceive me as achieving for the sake of prestige is common for attachment types. To them, I'm either rebelling, complying, or looking for a certain response. In fact, I'm not even on that scale. I don't rebel or comply. I know exactly what I want and whether I want it rare or well done; this has been the case since I was very tiny, and it never changed. So I don't care if I'm "rebelling," "complying," "getting accolades" or "getting hated," so long as I'm on the path toward my vision. I've been relentless in this regard. My parents set it up so I had to earn things rather than just giving me things. My ENTJ father was smart about making sure I wasn't a spoiled brat. So the idea was, I can't have music lessons unless I earn it by doing well in school (but don't get me wrong: I did not compete for valedictorian though in my stupid school I probably could have gotten it. I didn't care to; I just did enough to get what I want out of it). I couldn't have music lessons unless I practiced (this wasn't a problem; I loved doing it). I would sing the same note 1,000 times alone in my room, just to get it right. Not for a show. Not to show anyone. Just to get it perfect, for myself.

I don't see any reason to rebel (though most people would say I'm rebellious), nor to comply, since the things other people want are irrelevant compared to going straight toward the thing I want. This is because I have a need to express my own vision. Nothing could stand in my way, and I'll happily go along with some shit in the world as long as it's moving me forward; I'll happily ignore it if it isn't. 

My band complained that I refused to change the songs so they would be more palatable to the audience: I insisted on communicating things exactly the way I want to. My manager-type-people complained that when people complemented me after shows, I would say "No, I sucked, let me tell you what I fucked up." I only want to be appreciated for getting my message across exactly as its intended; any other appreciation that doesn't match with my self-image is unwelcome.

I don't have any major achievements in my adult life to speak of, aside from recording MY OWN album. Notice I have never talked about how many fans I do or don't have. I don't care. It's an achievement because I realized my own vision. I have also written multiple novels, but never got published. Do I care? Not one bit. I did it for myself; because I needed to delve into those feelings. My parents used to complain about how much time I spent in my room obsessing over novels that I refused to show anyone. You are looking at my actions through the lens of an attachment perspective (and arguably a 3 fix, since I don't even think in those terms) ;D




> You're cool in my book is what it says :wink: But yeah, I dunno... Existentialism is usually tied to Beta NF, as is the romantic movement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



You cool too


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> I was talking about significant periods on my own. Hmm, why was it a problem to just have the one person?


Well it didn't happen to me (isolation and bitterness has however, with withdrawing and shutting out people), I was talking about Vixey's situation.

But to answer your question: Variety, novelty, new impressions ? I have this probably Ti dom friend (always going on about how I'm not detached/objective enough, but I think he's just jealous of my occasional zeal and mad rhetoric skills that I combine with my brilliant intellect ) that likes to discuss politics and history with me. Obviously I enjoy our talks quite a lot, but it's a bit one dimensional. I can't talk artistic passion, or relationships, or literature, or anime, or sports or just general life issues with him. Not because he's unwilling or because I don't trust him, but because it leads nowhere. I also can't feed on his Fe to enhance the conversational atmosphere, although I've gotten good at getting goofy indignant rises out of him through trolling with obvious logical fallacies hehe. That's why I've got X 7w6 dude to get me to loosen up and play dorky Wii games and Y and Z girl to get bogged down in melancholy with every friday noon. Someone else to talk NBA, some girl to introduce me to French Canadian music, etc.

The point is multifaceted people with whom I can converse for days on end one-on-one are pretty rare (but those that do exist are utterly precious!), so it's always handy and more fun to have several people to go to for different moods and interests. Having only a single person at all times would start being a painful routine. Keep in mind I'm not even talking free time here, but simply life at school.

Btw on the Ti dom guy, his instinctual stack seems a bit weird. On one hand he is TOTALLY oblivious to anything social and doesn't seem to give a flying fuck about how he fits in and how he's seen, no social anxiety (but still shows no interest in networking) and never gossips either, and on the other he comes across to me as one of the least sexual people I've met. It's an area he doesn't care about in the slightest. SP isn't even that noticeable either as his boundaries aren't that tight, but he has mentioned to me in the past how he likes watching money pile up in his bank account lol. Some people hardly fit the system it seems.


----------



## Animal

@*ElectricSlime*
I forgot to address this part: about ENFJ. I am not as studied in cognitive functions as I am in enneagram, though I'm slowly learning. For what it's worth coming from my less-studied-compared-to-you-and-others-here observations, I think your Ti is pretty damn sharp. You don't strike me as having the slick measuredness of ENFJ, where you have the perfect comeback at the perfect time in order to move the crowd just so. Instead you have in-depth, well thought out arguments, which serve to make distinctions between things. Disclaimer: take this with a grain of salt because I don't have nearly the confidence in functions that I would like to make in depth arguments (I suspect you can see that for yourself); but I do have an ENFJ best friend (the 3) , all my life, so I am pretty familiar with how they move people. My sample set is bigger than one but due to his example I can recognize ENFJ on various enneagram types, more so than I can recognize other cog types. There's this polished ...something. You're more raw (in a cool way).


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Animal

I must've put my foot in my mouth because it seems there is a misunderstanding. The prestige and status thing wasn't particularly addressed to you so much as it was used in negation regarding myself. I have no clue as to why you do what you do, and I'd rather ask directly than assume things about a person's personal life. But what I do think is that there's a stronger human-doing machine to you than to me in terms of being active towards concrete goals. That is mostly the 3 stuff I was getting at for you. I think you mentioned before that you were very professional and able to put aside your feelings temporarily in order to get the job done in reaching the goal you set ? I'm more on the self-indulgent diva side honestly, and I'm not very proud to admit it.

BUT AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH I must stop talking and save up that stuff for the post


----------



## Animal

@ElectricSlime
ERR I'm sorry for posting so many times in a row. I keep forgetting to add things. I think my brain is on overdrive since I finally slept after literally four nights of 4 hours sleep total.

Anyway.

Social instinct is tied to achievement. Marilyn Manson is a very high achiever, and he's 4w5 (typed by himself and Russ Hudson).

To be clear not ALL soc doms are high achievers. I just want to be very clear because sometimes people take these statements as absolutes. But if you read subtype descriptions for instance, you can see that Soc 3 is the ultimate archetype of the high achiever, more than the other 3s. This is true across the board; or at least, the potential exists. This is because in Soc, there's some ladder-climbing.

I have always blasted right through the ladder, but had my eye on my own vision--- and (eventually) manifesting it in the world. This is part of what lead me to Sx/So. If this is too vague or confusing and if anyone cares, I can try to elaborate. But you might be totally disconnected from all that if you're Sx/Sp . (Srry I still have to answer your other post.. I will sometime.) My husband is likely Sx/Sp and he's so similar to this. He resents that he has to exist in the world at all, whereas I see it as a kind of stage on which to do my thing. But I don't care about "their" set-ups for achievements or whatever.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Animal said:


> @*ElectricSlime*
> I forgot to address this part: about ENFJ. I am not as studied in cognitive functions as I am in enneagram, though I'm slowly learning. For what it's worth coming from my less-studied-compared-to-you-and-others-here observations, I think your Ti is pretty damn sharp. You don't strike me as having the slick measuredness of ENFJ, where you have the perfect comeback at the perfect time in order to move the crowd just so. Instead you have in-depth, well thought out arguments, which serve to make distinctions between things. Disclaimer: take this with a grain of salt because I don't have nearly the confidence in functions that I would like to make in depth arguments (I suspect you can see that for yourself); but I do have an ENFJ best friend (the 3) , all my life, so I am pretty familiar with how they move people. My sample set is bigger than one but due to his example I can recognize ENFJ on various enneagram types, more so than I can recognize other cog types. There's this polished ...something. You're more raw (in a cool way).


MBTI ENFJ I am not for sure, but EIE is a different beast. I feel like it describes perfectly the part that the ILE profiles miss about me: my stormy, internally strained nature that takes himself way too seriously, frequent doubts, using my intuition to foresee negative consequences (also a 6 thing), my contrasts and penchant for extremes, the introspection, thin-skinned and prone to grudges, trying to pose as a strong and apt Se user through confrontational behavior while it's not my natural area. I also feel I lean slightly more on Beta than Alpha.

That said I agree that Ti seeking seems wrong, and I don't think my Fe is always active unconsciously like a leading function. But I have indeed noticed that I have very few patience with heavy Ti philosophers like Kant and Descartes and wish someone would just trim the pedantic, technical fat off that shit to make it more simple and direct to comprehend.

I'll still stick with ILE.

And yeah, raw is how I prefer it fo sho.

Edit: And how do you see a SO blindspot 3 then ?


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## Animal

Oh, I posted my last post before I saw this. Anyway, it's further evidence to me that you could be very likely Sx/Sp.



ElectricSlime said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> I must've put my foot in my mouth because it seems there is a misunderstanding.


Oh don't worry, I wasn't upset. I probably did misunderstand but no foots in mouths. I find your posts and arguments compelling and well thought out, whether I agree or not. It's nearly impossible to offend me, aside from the people who are quite obviously (or passive aggressively) insulting me, using type as a pretext to do so.



> The prestige and status thing wasn't particularly addressed to you so much as it was used in negation regarding myself. I have no clue as to why you do what you do, and I'd rather ask directly than assume things about a person's personal life. But what I do think is that there's a stronger human-doing machine to you than to me in terms of being active towards concrete goals. That is mostly the 3 stuff I was getting at for you.* I think you mentioned before that you were very professional and able to put aside your feelings temporarily in order to get the job done in reaching the goal you set ? I'm more on the self-indulgent diva side honestly, and I'm not very proud to admit it.*


Yes. I deal with my feelings the same day, hour or whatever; in fact, I give them characters, stories, colors, and reasons ad nauseum; but I am better at shutting them down in the moment than most sixes & 6 fixers, or just proceeding anyway. I also think I could be a cognitive thinker but I don't want to go into that here. Maybe I'll PM you; I like your opinions but I have had a bad time with some people here so I don't want to open up my own typing on this thread and provoke another issue. 

I don't know how to explain it because I can get the damn job done but I don't actually "not feel my feelings" or have any trouble finding them like a 3. There was this enneagram teacher who would ask people a list of questions to determine their type. One was, "Do you have feelings?" 3s would either say "no" or would hesitate. Shheeeeesh that is not me. But, some of my exes call me a robot. Because when I get in venge mode I'm pretty fucking cold. 


> BUT AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH I must stop talking and save up that stuff for the post


Hahhah


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## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> Edit: And how do you see a SO blindspot 3 then ?


There's an Sp/Sx 3 on my forum and she's still focused on achievement, at least in her particular areas. A 3 is a 3 is a 3. I guess there's no getting around that.  It's just she goes crazy if she doesn't have enough money, and is less focused on 'what others think' about the way her wedding ring looks compared to her coworkers or something like that. I know a 631 So/Sp who actually cares about stuff like that. And a 173 So/Sp who is much more reasonable but still gets upset about how things look to others (and has a very high level job). Now, don't get me wrong; this is not 'normal' to care about wedding rings and coworkers... the person had other problems. But the Soc instinct combined with 3 makes it more likely for _some_ people to over-obsess about all these mini status symbols. 

My bff is a Social 3 ENFJ. He would never give a flying fuck about any of that. He is just not on the same plane. But he's THE BEST at the field that he himself invented as an independent worker.


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## Full_fathom_4

> =Animal;41031457Social instinct is tied to achievement.



man, I hate finding myself here, but I don't get this. If I was to impart my own shiz to the above, I'd say something about Soc existing at the highest primal state vis-a the other two. That thing where 'collective' was suddenly a known, where Sanskrit became a thing. Where evolution led the same to the here and now, communicating a something, through a type.


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## Animal

Full_fathom_4 said:


> man, I hate finding myself here, but I don't get this. If I was to impart my own shiz to the above, I'd say something about Soc existing at the highest primal state vis-a the other two. That thing where 'collective' was suddenly a known, where Sanskrit became a thing. Where evolution led the same to the here and now, communicating a something, through a type.


I love this. And I agree that on a spiritual level, that is the highest potential of Social. Unfortunately most people are not operating on such a level, so they substitute 'connection to the collective' with status symbols, achievement etc.

Personally , my 'vision' is tied to a vision for the collective, though I'm not social first. It's not about achievement at all. But in order to tap into the pulse of the collective, you have to make some kind of statement. The instinct then has its spiritual and its more 'animal' potentials. It's not one or the other. Someone's best potential is also their worst potential. Tapping into the collective being best Soc, scrambling to get to the top of it being the worst. That kind of thing.


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## Full_fathom_4

I had a profound Social moment once while hiking around a giant outcrop in Utah. Upon doing so, I stumbled over a native hieroglyphic that depicted an antlered animal carved into the stone. The kicker was that that they took the time to draw a giant penis on the animal. Why did these people do that?


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## Greyhart

Full_fathom_4 said:


> I had a profound Social moment once while hiking around a giant outcrop in Utah. Upon doing so, I stumbled over a native hieroglyphic that depicted an antlered animal carved into the stone. The kicker was that that they took the time to draw a giant penis on the animal. Why did these people do that?


I'm in tears. Dicks are important symbols tho.


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## ElectricSlime

Animal said:


> Oh, I posted my last post before I saw this. Anyway, it's further evidence to me that you could be very likely Sx/Sp.


What is ?



> Yes. I deal with my feelings the same day, hour or whatever; in fact, I give them characters, stories, colors, and reasons ad nauseum; but I am better at shutting them down in the moment than most sixes & 6 fixers, or just proceeding anyway. I also think I could be a cognitive thinker but I don't want to go into that here. Maybe I'll PM you; I like your opinions but I have had a bad time with some people here so I don't want to open up my own typing on this thread and provoke another issue.


I've seen some Sixes who seemed to have it pretty easy on the shutting down switch, 613 namely. For me it... well it really depends on how stressed out by outside circumstances I am.

To me you're pretty clearly an ethical and irrational type. Se valuing (and ego!) and probably Fi. SEE to be exact: the gusty, enterprising adventurer with artistic sensibilities. I'll let you pick the subtype. Which T type would you entertain yourself as ?

Never understood how people could have such strong conflicts and drama over typology lol, I like to think there are better battles to be fought. But yeah sure, hit me up in PM and we can work from there.



> I don't know how to explain it because I can get the damn job done but I don't actually "not feel my feelings" or have any trouble finding them like a 3. There was this enneagram teacher who would ask people a list of questions to determine their type. *One was, "Do you have feelings?" 3s would either say "no" or would hesitate.* Shheeeeesh that is not me. But, some of my exes call me a robot. Because when I get in venge mode I'm pretty fucking cold.


 For real ? I don't think an NF E3 would say that honestly :scratch:


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## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> What is ?
> 
> I've seen some Sixes who seemed to have it pretty easy on the shutting down switch, 613 namely. For me it... well it really depends on how stressed out by outside circumstances I am.


Yeah that's fair. This might be socionics related too.



> To me you're pretty clearly an ethical and irrational type. Se valuing (and ego!) and probably Fi. SEE to be exact: the gusty, enterprising adventurer with artistic sensibilities. I'll let you pick the subtype. Which T type would you entertain yourself as ?


SEE is literally my favorite type.  :kitteh:

Yeah I'm definitely Se valuing. I have no doubt about that. I'm _extremely_ long-term visionary, so I wonder if 1D Ni is possible? I would love to discuss this in PM.. I'm not stubborn, really, I just don't want to get people involved on this topic which *can* get vulnerable when many people here enjoy striking me down while I'm vulnerable. And, well, I do get reactive at times and fuel the fire. What can I say.

Out of all types my longest-term typing was ISFP, or ESI-Se. (I have trouble seeing these as separate systems, but that's a whole other discussion). I don't think I could be anything but a Gamma so I'm glad you're in the same ballpark I am in, though I'd be willing to hear you out either way.



> Never understood how people could have such strong conflicts and drama over typology lol, I like to think there are better battles to be fought. But yeah sure, hit me up in PM and we can work from there.


Oops, just saw this. Ok 
Yeah I don't get mad about type recommendations. Only about those which are used as a pretext to insult me which is unfortunately quite common.


> For real ? I don't think an NF E3 would say that honestly :scratch:


I'll get into this in PM also. Since my bff is ENFJ 3.


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## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> What is ?


oops, I missed this part. Your thoughts about society and not wanting to participate in its achievements or other aspects.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> Yeah, Te creative for sure. Te leading is pretty out of the question imo, she doesn't have the focus on proactivity and productivity that they have, and she does vibe very Fi to me, which would point towards a Fi HA. I have a hunch that people can sometimes over identify with their HA, which would explain why I keep giving a look at typing as EIE.


As an aside, I'd fucking love it if anyone could make a(n accurate) case for being an extrovert. 

Anyway yeah, in MBTI, I consider my next-likely type to be ISFP (Fi-Se). With the way Socionics defines it, Se-creative would require heavy squinting, so SLI makes sense in that system to be next-likely I guess. It feels off, though, in more ways than one; ILI feels off only when other people rave about it being the best type ever.


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## Animal

Paradigm said:


> As an aside, I'd fucking love it if anyone could make a(n accurate) case for being an extrovert.
> 
> Anyway yeah, in MBTI, I consider my next-likely type to be ISFP (Fi-Se). With the way Socionics defines it, Se-creative would require heavy squinting, so SLI makes sense in that system to be next-likely I guess. It feels off, though, in more ways than one; ILI feels off only when other people rave about it being the best type ever.


I hate that best type ever nonsense myself. 
Anyone who would type you as an extrovert needs to get their brain checked..my two cents 

And it would be hard for me personally to unsee Te ego for you. Specifically IXTJ. I am enjoying the arguments about Ni and Si, though I won't participate for now since I'm in the process of refining my understanding of the system (and even my own type).
__

I use MBTI and Socionics types interchangeably. There are different schools of thoughts on this but as of now I can't reconcile that someone would be a different type in each system. Just figured I'd put that out there so everyone knows what I'm actually trying to say when I talk about functions.


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## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> As an aside, I'd fucking love it if anyone could make a(n accurate) case for being an extrovert.


For you ? I won't even try my hand haha 



> Anyway yeah, in MBTI, I consider my next-likely type to be ISFP (Fi-Se). With the way Socionics defines it, Se-creative would require heavy squinting, so SLI makes sense in that system to be next-likely I guess. It feels off, though, in more ways than one; ILI feels off only when other people rave about it being the best type ever.


ILI is glorified ? That's a first for me. INTJ is glorified in MBTI communities, but ILI hardly is in the socionics community. In fact it's the one type commonly referred as a socially inept intellectual pushover with a lack of libido, (IEI is the unpractical dreaming parasite that seduces people into taking care of his goals lol). Don't take these seriously though, they're caricatures.

And the people who type as both ILI and E8 here, are pretty much retards.



Animal said:


> I use MBTI and Socionics types interchangeably. There are different schools of thoughts on this but as of now I can't reconcile that someone would be a different type in each system. Just figured I'd put that out there so everyone knows what I'm actually trying to say when I talk about functions.


I absolutely can and do use them separately, since the functions are different (Si, Se and Fe being the ones that stick out the most to me). Also Socionics Ni, while oriented towards the future, isn't related to hardcore step-by-step meticulous planning of grand schemes the way it is with Jung, which is why I can envision myself as a Ni type in that system, while I can't for the life of me do it in MBTI.

My personal observations:

-Most MBTI INTJs (full of mistypes and different people attracted to the mastermind label) carry over in Socionics as either LIE, LSI or effectively ILI (the more abstract lazy ones that is). Sometimes LIIs. MBTI INTPs are either LII, ILE or ILI.

-Most MBTI INFJs here, concerned with their Jungian Fe of putting people's feelings above their own and protecting sensitivities, are actually Deltas (socionics Fi valuers) and thus EII (INFj). MBTI INFPs, typically more self-centered, obviously dreamy and unpractical, spontaneous, lazy, edgy or what not, often type as IEI. The more "flakey triggered at gay jokes" INFPs stay Deltas however.

MBTI ISTP has the best correlation in terms of laid back mechanic description to SLI in Socionics, thus the ISTp Si dom. MBTI ISTJ has no real equivalent in Socionics, but I guess LSI is the closest thing.

Most MBTI ENTJs are actually SEEs and more especially SLEs in Socionics. LIEs are much less domineering and grandiosely ambitious as a trend. They're nerds, like Bill Gates or Dick Cheney. Some, more rare, are very much ENTj in both systems though, and I have an example in mind.

Keep in mind those aren't absolute rules or anything, but they're what I've observed and deduced myself, and I'm pretty confident in that assessment.

I'll get to your PM tomorrow!


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## Animal

ElectricSlime said:


> I absolutely can and do use them separately, since the functions are different


I understand. I've participated in, and observed, long back and forths about this.
When I say that I'm not as schooled in socionics/functions, don't get me wrong.. I've had my eye on it for years, but I don't have the same organic feel for it, as though types are a living breathing organism that I can interact with, the way I do with enneagram. It's why I prefer to leave the arguments to others for now.

So I understand the logic behind this. My problem is.. which socionics are we talking about.. Model A, Gulenko, etc. And, is MBTI the same as Jung? As far as I understand, Jung proposed that the first two functions were either introverted or extroverted; for instance you'd be a NeFe type. His system did not have that much in common with MBTI (although again, what MBTI are we talking about? So many different thinkers wrote versions...)

I'll say I do understand your point of view and I'm not refuting it; I just wanted people to understand why I was (at least currently) using the types interchangeably in conversation. It just simplifies it to say NiTe, FeSi.. that's what I should say. Because I'm talking about the function arrangement rather than the way a 'whole type' is conceptualized in each drastically different system (none of which conceptualize them the way Jung did).
Eep.

I will say that I fully agree with the correlations and specifics you listed. I've noticed many of those myself, when it comes to descriptions. I like to get an organic feel for the crux of something. What is the deepest underlying essence of each function, which transcends all the different descriptions and systems? It's the same with enneagram; each author has their own take - but what is the underlying crux of the type? What is its essence?

With enneagram I have a feel for this; I can get underneath all the descriptions down to an underlying truth that pervades all of them. With functions, I'm still working on it. Maybe it isn't possible at this point, with the drastically different systems of interpretation. This is what I'm attempting to reconcile as I study further.

Arguably, my need to find one type that works in all the systems may be stunting my ability to land on a type. This remains to be seen.

**

Cool, No rush on PM. Sorry, I sent two. Talkative Animal.


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## Immolate

@ElectricSlime ENTJ to SEE is one of my favorites. What people tend to think of as Te in MBTI very often translates to Se in Socionics. I wonder about your Se impression of Animal; at the least, what she's expressed about sx suggests a preference or strength in sensing, which could be why some people here are struggling to relate.

@Paradigm ILI is indeed wimpy, although when it comes to the Se seeking types, you'll find that some people play into this notion of... seeking conflict, feeding on power, things like that, although I'd say Gammas tend to be more sober than Betas. There was someone typing as IEI a while back, and they were reasonably IEI, but they kept getting Delta typings because they didn't give off the right impression with regards to conflict, so they started to pound their chest a bit more. That was my read of it, anyhow.


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## Daeva

Immolate said:


> Animal; at the least, what she's expressed about sx suggests a preference or strength in sensing, which could be why some people here are struggling to relate.


To butt in, attempting to trace the instinct back to what it represents in a more biological "base" way, is exactly the opposite from the Sensing perspective that I see running amok in this thread.

For example.
"If I do [x], if I feel [y], does that mean I am [z]?" - "I just had this experience today, and this is how I reacted to it, what does this mean about my instinct?" ==> Sensing perspective.

@*Animal* 's explanation of the instincts breaks away from the circle jerk that so many people get caught up in, a circle jerk based on 'this experience, that experience.' If anything, her explanations are too far removed for people to "relate" to in their personal lives, meaning that it takes imagination and a detached view of both the material and oneself (as in, Intuition) to conceptualize the idea of 'instinct' in a more holistic sense.

If not that, I blame the Se/Ni <> Ne/Si contrast. They tend to not mesh well when it comes to conceptualizing the same material. Literally, different perspectives. @*Animal* clearly falling on the Se/Ni line, using Se exemplars to demonstrate the subjectively perceived pattern (Ni) of her instinctual drive, connected to the archetypal.
..
In contrast with the examples that I used before, which use personalized experiences (Si) as the grounds to explore theoretical options (Ne) in terms of type.


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## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> Hmm, yeah I guess I think that's important too, but I'm not always aware of it. I'd rather do other things than think about my health, but know it's unavoidable even though I try to. I think even sp-types might abuse their body, though, if say a drug gives them relief, or they overeat, and I think @*Animal* touched on this earlier too, so I don't think they'll always be the picture-perfect of health and how to take care of their body, but there will still be a focus on it.





> (I think @*Animal*'s post quite a few pages on the animal instinct at play was well-said), and I think sx is where that "drive" is expressed. There doesn't necessarily have to be sex, but still this need for "closeness" or "intimacy" is a factor of human behavior, and sx-doms, from my experience want that, perhaps more than anything. Ask any of them, and I'm sure it would be important to them. I think it's missing the point to say it has to do with something other than that...?


Ahh thank you so much for understanding my posts on Sx.. I was starting to wonder if I spoke another language 
I think you're pretty sharp at explaining instincts yourself. 

Yeah, to add to what you said, I am close with an Sp dom who unfortunately got hit with a health disaster; an ongoing chronic illness quite similar to my own. This Sp dom focused on the illness so much... he was overthinking it to the point he could barely work, started smoking pot and overeating to get rid of the stress, etc. Then, another Sp dom I know had a chronic illness, but ate perfectly, exercised regularly, obsessed over doing everything just right and looks thin and fit, even more than me, well into their 60s.

As for me, I just do the absolutely necessary health checklist (only because I had a chronic illness and would die otherwise) and then stop thinking about it. That might be a good thing so I dont' go crazy. Though losing my voice (my greatest passion), and also my beauty from the illness (hair loss, skin problems, jaw issues making my face lopsided , weight gain out of my control, insomnia making huge bags under my eyes) made me crazy. Ah well...


It can really go either way with instincts. The problem is an over-focus on it... which can amount to doing it a bit too well (like focusing at the expense of all else), going nuts on its behalf and fucking it up, or.. in a healthier person, having a kind of spiritual relationship with that instinct (like those Sp sports stars or survival-in-the-wild-fitness people).

I know you understood this mistaken, I was just adding to what you said.


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## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> @Nissa Nissa could you thank, think I'm gonna delete this


Ahhh sorry, missed it somehow!


----------



## owlet

mistakenforstranger said:


> Hmm, yeah I guess I think that's important too, but I'm not always aware of it. I'd rather do other things than think about my health, but know it's unavoidable even though I try to. I think even sp-types might abuse their body, though, if say a drug gives them relief, or they overeat, and I think @*Animal* touched on this earlier too, so I don't think they'll always be the picture-perfect of health and how to take care of their body, but there will still be a focus on it.


It's not impossible for an SP type to be self-destructive, but SP in itself is not self-destructive.


> SP is the first instinct to have evolved. This is an orientation towards survival, health, and comfort. SP drive checks in with the body: "Is this not enough or too much?" and orients by what the body reports on its needs. Of the three instincts, this is the oldest one; it dictates: “I must survive.” Animals are highly attuned to their self-preservation needs. Modern humans, however, are somewhat more distant from basic survival needs. That is, we have more sophistication in the sphere of physical needs and more complex regulation—once survival is taken care of, we aim for comfort and pleasure.
> 
> Self-preservation instinct responds to practical concerns of everyday life. SP types express concern centering around issues of security, food and health, employment, sustainability. At times this may make them look like enneagram head types, because they be in habit of planning to predict unforeseen mishaps or possible breaches in their security. In addition, the comfort seeking element to SP types can cause them to appear like gut types because of their desire to avoid too much complication or “fuss”.





> True, do sp-lasts not know this?


:smilet-digitalpoint



> I agree, but this was actually a lesson I had to learn much later on, like, "Oh, exercising improves your mind/mood? Wow, I didn't know that..." :stupid: It's not that I see it as irresponsible, I'm just sort of ignorant about it haha. I'd rather not think about it, find eating/sleeping so unnecessary, like I have much better things to do than maintenance/upkeep, but know I should focus on it more. I'm really thinking I'm not sp-dom...


Maybe you're not SP-first.



> Hmm, but I still think if any type is going to be that way it will be sx. Though, I have known a few 2s who are sx-lasts who can be this way too, because they can get a lot of self-worth from being in a relationship, or wanting to be in one.


Unhealthy people can be obsessive. Maybe that's more likely for unhealthy SX-firsts, but regardless it's unhealthy and shouldn't be focused on as a 'standard' focus.



> I mean, would you say this is sx from me that I said earlier? Because to me the element of sx is missing but the doing it to death is there...I mean, I'm always like, I need to set limits for myself and never do.


I'm not sure if you're genuinely asking my opinion or not. Why do you think you're sp/so, I guess?



> Ok, but this seems strange to me, and you're probably tired of hearing it from me. What instinct would romantic/sexual intimacy have to do with then? All humans have a drive, an instinct, to find a partner/mate, don't you think? It's hardwired in our biology to procreate, as it is to survive (sp), and associate with other human beings (so) (I think @*Animal*'s post quite a few pages back on the animal instinct at play was well-said), and I think sx is where that "drive" is expressed. There doesn't necessarily have to be sex, but still this need for "closeness" or "intimacy" is a factor of human behavior, and sx-doms, from my experience want that, perhaps more than anything. Ask any of them, and I'm sure it would be important to them. I think it's missing the point to say it has to do with something other than that...?


Not all humans have a drive to find a partner or mate, no. This is why I brought up people who are asexual, but there are also just people with very low sex drives who have other concerns. Humanity no longer actually needs to procreate that much and the overcrowding in many areas may eventually lead to the issue that was found with other animals in crowded conditions, which resulted in them no longer breeding. I've made it clear that I disagree with @Animal on the definition of SX and I'm not interested in getting back into that discussion. Here's a comparison:


> Sexual subtypes are not to be confused with having a healthy sex drive or being sexy, which is a common reason for many people misidentifying themselves as SX-primaries. The name of this instinct is misleading as, in the end, all instincts play into sexuality. SP is the body-to-body part - cuddling, sensuality, autonomic regulation. SX is riding the waves of energy, the invisible forces of attraction between the people, but it doesn't need to be actively physical. In a union, all three instincts combine—warmth (self-pres), energy (sexual), affection (social). One can have the sexual instinct operating in a group of friends—being in the heat, stimulated, energized, engaged. In relationships, there is a desire for endless engagement and fascination.


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> It's hard to keep up with all the posts these days...


 :frustrating:



> Yes, that was my feeling on it too, certain types will look syn-flow, like 9 or 2, while 4, 6, and 8 seem contraflow, which is basically the reactive triad. It's very arbitrary and not well defined. I also think social-lasts seem naturally contraflow too.


Used to love the theory and I remember someone saying something about dogs and leashes and contra flow being defined by the leash and I thought I could relate to that but not sure, think I can come across as syn flow too, think it can depend on other things.

Not sure how I feel about tritypes, I like thinking about how I relate to all types and triads, don't think I'm ever gonna settle on one tritype though and don't think it's very important.


Lol that potatoes with vinegar guy, when I was losing weight my approach was to eat mostly salads and candy and a happy meal or pizza once a week because I didn't want to get too many calories from real food and not be able to eat candy.
Not a very healthy approach but like I was so obsessive about food and all my energy went into worrying about it yet I just couldn't make a sacrifice of not eating candy, that would feel like death.


And I kinda ruined my system, started worrying if I had diabetes, then gluten allergy, etc. because at some point I started feeling awful, but not sure if that's sp or sp last or unrelated to sp.
Now I eat what I want and suddenly I don't even like sweets anymore most of the time but I still have to listen to my cravings or else I go crazy, also it's so hard to force myself to eat fruit and vegetables, my dad has to talk me into it like I'm 5 years old.
But I figured it's better to be my natural unhealthy than extra unhealthy.

Another food thing, I'm so...like I think I always noticed who got what and how much when it comes to food, or like yesterday we were at a restaurant, ordered two desserts, one for me and another for two of them to share and their's wasn't very good and I felt bad and offered some of mine and I tried to sound convincing but I could feel my eyes showing 'My cake, don't touch' lol



> Hmm, yeah I guess I think that's important too, but I'm not always aware of it. I'd rather do other things than think about my health, but know it's unavoidable even though I try to. I think even sp-types might abuse their body, though, if say a drug gives them relief, or they overeat, and I think @*Animal* touched on this earlier too, so I don't think they'll always be the picture-perfect of health and how to take care of their body, but there will still be a focus on it.


Talked about this above I guess, like I guess I think about it, just not in a way that's healthy and I find it hard to sacrifice my comfort and pleasure for my health? 


My mom is sp/sx and she's kinda like me with food, and she also has this...like she doesn't go to the doctor until there's no other option because she fears she'll have to stay in the hospital and won't be able to do what she wants and such, she doesn't want to have to change her lifestyle, or like she has back problems but she hates having to sit correctly, she spent her entire life lying on floor while painting even though she always had back issues and her mother kept telling her not to do it, but it was just most convenient and comfortable way to do it at the moment.
And she's just not self disciplined at all.
And she could live on cheese and coffee.
But she does worry about money a lot (partly as a result of having issues before because of being bad with money), that's one stereotypical sp thing about her, I remember sometimes feeling poor with her when I was a kid, like suddenly she'd start panicking more than I think was necessary, hard to explain. But she is practical in a way too as much as she's impractical, hard to explain the contradiction. And just extremely self focused.
But even with money she's not...for example her mother is a so/sp and she focuses on the way others deal with sp concerns, she focuses on things like health and education and all these things, my mom is really relaxed in a way and as long as she knows I won't die of hunger she doesn't worry, when I dropped out of college she said to grandma that if all else fails i can always get married or come to her.

Also remembered,my grandma (dad's mom) always talks about how my mom used to go out half naked in winter all the time, so she lacks that kind of sp too 

So she has many of these not typically sp things and lacks certain kind of practicality and focus on wholesome living but she is sp, hard to explain what it is, think instincts are a real thing but show so differently for everyone, it's just this underlying...thing, not sure, not always easy to recognize.




> I agree, but this was actually a lesson I had to learn much later on, like, "Oh, exercising improves your mind/mood? Wow, I didn't know that..." :stupid: It's not that I see it as irresponsible, I'm just sort of ignorant about it haha. I'd rather not think about it, find eating/sleeping so unnecessary, like I have much better things to do than maintenance/upkeep, but know I should focus on it more. I'm really thinking I'm not sp-dom...


Not sure how I feel about this, like I know exercise is good but I don't know what to do with that information lol, even when I think about it affecting appearance I'm still not motivated enough to actually make it part of my regular lifestyle, seems impossible to me, also I don't really...I guess I don't like the idea, it's ugly to me:abnormal:, don't get why people are so proud of their gym selfies.
I mean would still like to be more self disciplined but exercise is just not interesting to me at all unless it's something like ice skating or riding a bike (except that hurts my butt so it's also usually annoying but I like the movement and how I can listen to music while doing it)



> Hmm, but I still think if any type is going to be that way it will be sx. Though, I have known a few 2s who are sx-lasts who can be this way too, because they can get a lot of self-worth from being in a relationship, or wanting to be in one.


Agree.



> I mean, would you say this is sx from me that I said earlier? Because to me the element of sx is missing but the doing it to death is there...I mean, I'm always like, I need to set limits for myself and never do.


Don't know about other people but I would not say it's sx, think everyone can be obsessive about things they love, seems weird to me to say that doing things to death is sx.
Now I'm wodering if I'd even describe myself as doing things to death.



> Yes, the more I think about it, I'm seeing my focus is a lot more on Social. It's like the first thing I do when I wake up is check the website here to see what went down, write a few posts, and then I go (begrudgingly) eat (while I'm starting to get dizzy :laughing.
> 
> I always felt like I fit the sp-4 "archetype" better, in being stoic and enduring, but then they are described as reckless too, which I don't relate to, but can kind of see in my friend who is 4w5 sp/sx. I find he's a lot more "stoic" than I am too, and like he'll always comment on how the room makes him feel, while my stoicism came with time and a lot of struggle in my life, but don't think I'm naturally stoic. With Social 4s, I notice they tend to be very shy because of that social-shame, whereas I don't think I was always like that...? I was quite outgoing as a kid and even in high school, much more than I am now. And then there's Tom Wingfield who I think is sp-4 and he is so similar to me in many ways. Oh, but I'm now remembering something from my life that was very Social of me. Much to think over.


Could easily see both for you, in my mind you seem more sp because of that stoicism, like the hidden 4 thing, but don't think subtypes are everything, could see So first separately from subtypes
But I'm never sure how neurotic in So way you seem, I guess there are moments but most So firsts here talk about it all the time or have this constant heavy social focus, like really heavy and serious, feels like it weights 500 pounds, but i could imagine someone looking stoic for So related reasons, hard to tell where the line between sp/so and so/sp is. To be perfectly honest I see you as being more sp/so because I usually like sp/so better than so/sp, but that's not a good way to type.

And I was such a shy child 



> Love @*Vixey* that you find Hedger Ledger still funny. Please never let me live it down! :laughing: Also, you have to be a 2. I don't know about instincts, though.


Don't worry, no way I'll ever forget :redface:


----------



## mistakenforstranger

owlet said:


> Unhealthy people can be obsessive. Maybe that's more likely for unhealthy SX-firsts, but regardless it's unhealthy and shouldn't be focused on as a 'standard' focus.


It may be unhealthy, but I do see it as being a part of the type "makeup" when taken to extremes.



> I'm not sure if you're genuinely asking my opinion or not. Why do you think you're sp/so, I guess?


Yes I was, since I think according to your definition of sx, I would be a sx-type, or have more sx in me than I think I do, and was wondering if you agree with it. 



> Not all humans have a drive to find a partner or mate, no. This is why I brought up people who are asexual, but there are also just people with very low sex drives who have other concerns. Humanity no longer actually needs to procreate that much and the overcrowding in many areas may eventually lead to the issue that was found with other animals in crowded conditions, which resulted in them no longer breeding. I've made it clear that I disagree with @*Animal* on the definition of SX and I'm not interested in getting back into that discussion. Here's a comparison:


It still doesn't change the fact that (most) human beings have an innate drive to reproduce, otherwise, how do you, owlet, or I, or anyone here, exist? It is hardwired into the biology, whether one chooses to act on it or not, or is biologically unable to reproduce as in people who are asexual, not to mention gay people (without IVF). 



> SX is riding the waves of energy, the invisible *forces of attraction* between the people, but it doesn't need to be actively physical.


This is probably the closest to it, though. What you're attracted to, but again attraction is still going to spill (at a certain point), or want to spill, into a romantic/sexual *union* with *another*. That is the sx-part, seeking union, or I've seen it termed merging, and this "union" occurs most often in romantic relations. It still mentions this attraction being directed towards a person, or a group of friends (still think that's Social), rather than something inanimate, like a video game. I think that's more sp, because it is entirely a solitary activity (assuming you're not gaming with others, which would be more Social) with no _reciprocation_ (and thus, no union) from the game itself. Sp-doms can be very "intense" or obsessive in this fashion, but that doesn't make it sx.



> *In relationships*, there is a desire for endless engagement and fascination.


Again, in relationships...



> Humanity no longer actually needs to procreate that much and the overcrowding in many areas may eventually lead to the issue that was found with other animals in crowded conditions, which resulted in them no longer breeding.


You've just proven the point. Animals breed. Humans are essentially animals. **** sapiens. We have the same classification as any other species. This is a perspective that is prioritizing social over sexual, but it doesn't change the fact that sexual relations are innately a part of one's biology, even if some people fall outside of it. Though, I don't think those people who reproduce because they want to have a family, or are doing so because that's just what people do, starting a family, are sexual types either, as this would be more Social motivations. Sx is wanting to be completely and totally connected to the Other (even in a divine sense; though, I think my 4 with Holy Origin is influencing this, or maybe not). Hopefully, it's HOT too! :tongue:

One of my favorite quotes...


----------



## owlet

mistakenforstranger said:


> It may be unhealthy, but I do see it as being a part of the type "makeup" when taken to extremes.


Okay, but it shouldn't, in my opinion, be used as part of people finding their instinctual stack as it's a general unhealthy behaviour.



> Yes I was, since I think according to your definition of sx, I would be a sx-type, or have more sx in me than I think I do, and was wondering if you agree with it.


It doesn't matter if I think so or not if you don't feel like you have that much of it.



> It still doesn't change the fact that (most) human beings have an innate drive to reproduce, otherwise, how do you, owlet, or I, or anyone here, exist? It is hardwired into the biology, whether one chooses to act on it or not, or is biologically unable to reproduce as in people who are asexual, not to mention gay people (without IVF).


Okay, and there's also the whole social pressures thing like women being pushed to have children or pushing themselves to do so and having a panic because it's expected before a certain age and a childless woman must be very unhappy. There's a biological urge in many people, but that's not the only factor.
People who are asexual are not biologically unable to reproduce, they simply feel no sexual attraction to people.



> This is probably the closest to it, though. What you're attracted to, but again attraction is still going to spill (at a certain point), or want to spill, into a romantic/sexual *union* with *another*. That is the sx-part, seeking union, or I've seen it termed merging, and this "union" occurs most often in romantic relations. It still mentions this attraction being directed towards a person, or a group of friends (still think that's Social), rather than something inanimate, like a video game. I think that's more sp, because it is entirely a solitary activity (assuming you're not gaming with others, which would be more Social) with no _reciprocation_ (and thus, no union) from the game itself. Sp-doms can be very "intense" or obsessive in this fashion, but that doesn't make it sx.


Why does it have to be romantic/sexual? Why not a very close platonic friendship? Why not doing something which creates that same feeling? What about people who have reciprocation from a game such as a simulation? What about perceived reciprocation as with:


> SX-first people enjoy feeling invigorated. They may fantasize about scenarios that make them feel alive and that are emotionally stimulating.






> You've just proven the point. Animals breed. Humans are essentially animals. **** sapiens. We have the same classification as any other species. This is a perspective that is prioritizing social over sexual, but it doesn't change the fact that sexual relations are innately a part of one's biology, even if some people fall outside of it. Though, I don't think those people who reproduce because they want to have a family, or are doing so because that's just what people do, starting a family, are sexual types either, as this would be more Social motivations. Sx is wanting to be completely and totally connected to the Other (even in a divine sense; though, I think my 4 with Holy Origin is influencing this, or maybe not). Hopefully, it's HOT too! :tongue:
> 
> One of my favorite quotes...


So to you SX is purely wanting to reproduce? I'd like to ask you to clarify if you think asexual people can or can't be SX-first and if they can, how that works with your logic on SX. 
If the discussion on SX is just going to be 'they want to have sex' then we're done here.


----------



## Tad Cooper

As an animal biologist I just want to say that, while a lot of animals ARE driven by reproduction, there are MANY which are not. There's those which support parents or siblings breeding while not reproducing themselves and therefore they still pass on their genes by proxy BUT they do not reproduce themselves. This is known as kinship - support those who breed effectively and therefore benefit. 
I'd also like to say that humans are closer to animals in a zoo environment, removed from nature, and so suffer from bias when studied as animals. You need to study them as you would an animal in an artificial environment, such as a zoo or a pet, and compare that way. You'll notice that animals in artificial environments struggle to breed due to overpopulation, the wrong conditions etc, and so they form kinship bonds or are social but not sexual in their interactions.


----------



## Darkbloom

Every instinct can be obsessive, addictive, etc. in some way, what you tend to be obsessed with and in what way says something about your instincts. It is about what you instinctively obsess over, not what you like and pay healthy amount of attention to , everyone will at some point show 'unhealthy' behaviors and everyone should look into what their unhealthy tendencies are or definitely aren't, no point talking about types without that. @owlet


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Stuff like instincts can be hard to put into words. It's about speaking the same language, and much of it has nothing to do with words. So, though I see that some stuff that has been written about SX may be taken to mean something else entirely, much of the communication in my opinion is happening non-verbally. SX is an energy I either feel or don't feel from someone. It's either there or not there. I could call it obsession, or juicy, or any of that - and it wouldn't mean much unless you are experiencing it as well. 

Sometimes with SX secondaries, their SX fuels and sustains the concerns of the primary instinct which can, to the outside observer, appear a little to have that SX quality. 

I don't really see SX lasts get obsessed that easily. They appear quite sober and grounded.


----------



## owlet

Vixey said:


> Every instinct can be obsessive, addictive, etc. in some way, what you tend to be obsessed with and in what way says something about your instincts. It is about what you instinctively obsess over, not what you like and pay healthy amount of attention to , everyone will at some point show 'unhealthy' behaviors and everyone should look into what their unhealthy tendencies are or definitely aren't, no point talking about types without that.


If you're responding to something someone's said, it's polite to address them directly.


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## ElectricSlime

Has there ever been a more pointlessly circular discussion ? This is just repeating what’s already been said over and over from both sides and it’s been clear for a while that neither will budge. @owlet has her own view of the instinct and seems pretty decided to stick to it.


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## Tad Cooper

ElectricSlime said:


> Has there ever been a more pointlessly circular discussion ? This is just repeating what’s already been said over and over from both sides and it’s been clear for a while that neither will budge. @*owlet* has her own view of the instinct and seems pretty decided to stick to it.


I think you're right, I was getting annoyed at the assumptions being made about the animal science is all! Both sides disagree and I believe owl said they should just agree to disagree and yet it carried on...


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## ElectricSlime

Tad Cooper said:


> I think you're right, I was getting annoyed at the assumptions being made about the animal science is all! Both sides disagree and I believe owl said they should just agree to disagree and yet it carried on...


Yes. We should all agree to disagree and turn to an infinitely more fascinating topic of exploration.

Like me, for example~


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## Tad Cooper

ElectricSlime said:


> Yes. We should all agree to disagree and turn to an infinitely more fascinating topic of exploration.
> 
> Like me, for example~


Sounds good to me, although it'll be about me as soon as I reply to a few posts I was quoted in!


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## mistakenforstranger

owlet said:


> Why does it have to be romantic/sexual? Why not a very close platonic friendship? Why not doing something which creates that same feeling? What about people who have reciprocation from a game such as a simulation? What about perceived reciprocation as with


I suppose it can be extended to a close platonic friendship, but I don't think getting "stimulated" by a video game is sx. I don't play video games, though.



> SX-first people enjoy feeling invigorated. They may fantasize about scenarios that make them feel alive and that are emotionally stimulating.


No, I don't agree with this, sounds more like a 7, and because a sp-dom can seek _physical_ stimulation too. That person working out, pushing themselves beyond their limits for the "rush" or "thrill" (which is often used to describe sx) can be sp too, or maybe not, but I don't think it necessarily has to be sx that is looking for stimulation.



> So to you SX is purely wanting to reproduce? I'd like to ask you to clarify if you think asexual people can or can't be SX-first and if they can, how that works with your logic on SX.
> If the discussion on SX is just going to be 'they want to have sex' then we're done here.


No, I don't think I said that...



> What you're attracted to, but again attraction is still going to spill (at a certain point), or want to spill, into a romantic/sexual union with another. *That is the sx-part, seeking union, or I've seen it termed merging, and this "union" occurs most often in romantic relations.* It still mentions this attraction being directed towards a person, or a group of friends (still think that's Social), rather than something inanimate, like a video game.


Though, if you say 



> People who are asexual are not biologically unable to reproduce, they simply *feel no sexual attraction to people*.


Isn't this incompatible with?



> SX is riding the waves of energy, the *invisible forces of attraction between the people*, but it doesn't need to be actively physical.


Though, I'm not saying asexual people can't be sx, but I think it's a special case if it does occur and would require looking into more. 

One thing I've seen in sx-people, who aren't interested in me romantically, since I'll bite , but it still feels sx, is this push for _more_ in a conversation. I'm not sure how to describe it, but this is what I was referring to with that they dig deeper than I do, which you asked me about earlier. They want to get to know you on a deeper level, close the gap, whereas I struggle with letting my guard down and letting people in. I'm not sure if that's a sp vs sx distinction, but I tend to have walls (at first) where they seem more free to be penetrated or penetrate into you (because we're talking about sx! ;D)

I found this online that was by Katherine Fauvre, but it's a little too simple:



> SX/SP: needs intimate, exciting, secure bonds
> 
> 
> SX/SO: needs close bonds with mate and personal group of friends
> 
> 
> SO/SX: Needs friendly bonds with mate, groups of friends, and community at large
> 
> 
> SO/SP: Needs friendship in relationship, wants mate to be best friend
> 
> 
> SP/SX: Needs secure bond with mate that is attractive but brings security
> 
> 
> SP/SO: Needs shared drive for security and shared group of friends


 @ElectricSlime, thought you might find this helpful: contrast of instinctual variants sx/so and sx/sp that I found


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## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> Has there ever been a more pointlessly circular discussion ? This is just repeating what’s already been said over and over from both sides and it’s been clear for a while that neither will budge. @*owlet* has her own view of the instinct and seems pretty decided to stick to it.


Welcome to this forum! :tongue:






We can move on, though...

Ooo, and look at my shiny new Super Member status! This is invigorating my Social!  (Although, it pales in comparison to you fine people)


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## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> No, I don't agree with this, sounds more like a 7, and because a sp-dom can seek physical stimulation too. That person working out, pushing themselves beyond their limits for the "rush" or "thrill" (which is often used to describe sx) can be sp too, or maybe not, but I don't think it necessarily has to be sx that is looking for stimulation.


Agree.
Think it can be sp sometimes, can also be so many other things, do sp/so 7w8 ESTPs like feeling dead? 
Do sp/so's not want close platonic friendships?


I think sx can leak into non sexual and romantic things too but it's pointless to focus so much on friendships and video games and hobbies in context of sx when there's complete absence of underlying energy that sx is defined by.



> Ooo, and look at my shiny new Super Member status! This is invigorating my Social!


Congrats:star:erc3::star:


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## Tad Cooper

mistakenforstranger said:


> Welcome to this forum! :tongue:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can move on, though...
> 
> Ooo, and look at my shiny new Super Member status! This is invigorating my Social!  (Although, it pales in comparison to you fine people)


Im still not sure why he's a pirate in this song video....(so catchy)


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## Mr Castelo

I don't think that SP-doms can't be obsessive or enjoy "extremes", although I admit that we're probably the most conscious about limits/boundaries (and perhaps that's why we can be prone to take "calculated risks"). I know for a fact that I can get pretty obsessed with some stuff, and I can research about them for weeks or months on end. What might differentiate me from an SX-dom/second is that those obsessions lack a certain emotional attachment -- it's something akin to intense curiosity or pure _mental_ stimulation. Those obsessions are not "me" and I don't belong to them, they're for entertainment or practical means.

I see the Sexual instinct being primarily about _raw emotional connection_. I find the definition of the Sexual instinct to be about intimate relationships very limiting -- you can have intimate relationships as your first priority in life for multiple reasons. An SP-dom might pursue a relationship in order to feel secure/taken care of, an SO-dom might pursue a relationship simply because they don't want to be alone, etc. Now, the person who spends most of their lives pursuing a meaningful and intense emotional connection to something or someone is without doubt SX-dom. There is an inherent "other" value in the Sexual instinct that is absent in Self-Preservation.


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## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> I don't think that SP-doms can't be obsessive or enjoy "extremes", although I admit that we're probably the most conscious about limits/boundaries (and perhaps that's why we can be prone to take "calculated risks"). I know for a fact that I can get pretty obsessed with some stuff, and I can research about them for weeks or months on end. What might differentiate me from an SX-dom/second is that those obsessions lack a certain emotional attachment -- it's something akin to intense curiosity or pure _mental_ stimulation. Those obsessions are not "me" and I don't belong to them, they're for entertainment or practical means.
> 
> I see the Sexual instinct being primarily about _raw emotional connection_. I find the definition of the Sexual instinct to be about intimate relationships very limiting -- you can have intimate relationships as your first priority in life for multiple reasons. An SP-dom might pursue a relationship in order to feel secure/taken care of, an SO-dom might pursue a relationship simply because they don't want to be alone, etc. Now, the person who spends most of their lives pursuing a meaningful and intense emotional connection to something or someone is without doubt SX-dom. There is an inherent "other" value in the Sexual instinct that is absent in Self-Preservation.


You I like. You don’t post much but everything you’ve said so far has been quality insight spoken through an authentic self awareness and in a secure manner.

(means you should post more)


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## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> I just looked it up, and it sounds like he just took a facebook test or something. I agree that he's probably ENTP in MBTI. As a matter of fact I've been compared to him before, with both of us being smug sophists of sorts lol.
> 
> He seems a bit too involved for me to consider ILE (perhaps it could be attributed to him being either So/Sx or Sx/So tho), like he has this agenda he's trying to push.


Yeah, I think he's definitely sx/so, and I also want to say he's a 6w7 too (but he was recently put forth as being 4w3 so/sx elsewhere, but I can't see it...), so maybe that could be another reason why he's similar. 



> And I see Fi ignoring rather than Fi PoLR. If I understand XLEs well and I really am one, we don't exactly go looking to step on people's sensitivities unless criticized or unhealthy. It's more of an after effect of us overriding Fi with Ti when dealing with people (calling a spade a spade or making an insensitive joke out of playful intent). But since shame is associated with the PoLR and we would rather we could ignore it, being criticized on it makes us indignantly angry (who dares impose norms of communication over the truth and fun atmosphere ??!!) and turns us into antisocial assholes as compensation and "revenge". Milo knows perfectly what he's doing and goes around stepping on toes on purpose as part of his objectives. He claims to be chaotic and shit but I don't think he is all that much. He reminds me of The Joker from The Dark Knight who I type at EIE as well.


That makes sense. If you've ever seen the movie (I don't really recommend it), Silver Linings Playbook, the main character played by Bradley Cooper is SLE, or maybe ILE, but his character runs on Fi PoLR in that way. Just says inappropriate things and has to stick his foot in his mouth lol. I agree with that about Milo too, he's trying to get a rise out of people. It's very Fe, but is he 1D Ti, or even 2D Te? Seems his Te is stronger than that. Hmm, I thought the Joker was ENTP too; though, I don't know if he would be ILE in Socionics. Batman/Bruce Wayne is a total Gamma. Why so serious??



Nissa Nissa said:


> Really, and I can't emphasize this enough, I am like a cat. which is not the animal I'd usually go to but I've been observing cats lately and the resemblance is uncanny
> 
> -I ignore and hide from people for a great percentage of the time
> -But when I choose them/they choose me I attach myself vigorously and constantly (other day I had a cat sleeping on the corner of the bed, sometime in the middle of the night it had woken up and was moving around a bunch so I took it downstairs where it usually slept, thinking it would stay down there but ten minutes later I hear extremely piteous mewing and have to bring it back up again)
> -I do not like people to watch where I'm going
> -I am constantly moving around and being mysterious
> -Just the beginning


I guess this means you're sp/sx (because of cats) then ? :tongue: No, I don't think you're Social last.



> Anyways I think a lot of 2 descriptions are very 'dog'-like, dogs can easily fulfill the requirements of being a 2, they earnestly agree they are being helpful no matter what, they are anxiously eager to share everything and join randomly in other people's lives, always have clear tasks (cats just kinda...exist)
> But I would be more of a 'cat' 2, which I think exists, it's a new subtype


Haha, I guess so, think 4s are more the cats, if 2s are the dogs. Cats are also more Fi, and dogs are Fe too, so maybe that's why it's harder to relate to 2, since they do lean towards types with Fe-Si. I'm kind of cat-like when around other people for the first time, but I eventually warm up once I get to know you, and become more "dog"-like then lol. But, my spirit animal is probably most similar to an owl because I stay up all hours of the night. I've always felt a connection to owls. I guess that makes me a 5...



ElectricSlime said:


> @*Nissa Nissa*
> 
> I never actually asked you why you relate to Two that much, do you have a post to refer me to somewhere ? I do think you strike me as having an oddly present and important inner fantasy world compared to the perception I have of Twos. Like you have feelings of longing for the princess or victorian aristocrat life. Maybe it’s the line to 4, or maybe you’re just a NF on steroids:wink:


I thought 4 was a possibility, mostly because of the romanticism/longing that you see in her too, but I don't know if I still see it when I've asked if 4 would work for her. Not that 2s can't be romantic, but it's of a different sort, since 2s are Positive Triad, and 4s are anything but that. That line about being an NF on steroids made me laugh.



ElectricSlime said:


> Or maybe you’re just typeless, I have those moments where I wonder if this *whole ststem isn’t all bullshit anyway.*


Nope, that's your Type 6 at play! You can't escape the Enneagram...

I saw Social 6s mentioned earlier, and I think Jon Stewart is a Social 6.



Vixey said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* curious, what would you guess my instinct stacking to be?
> I know you don't know but just try to go with your gut!


Well, I don't think you're sp-last, but you don't feel sp/sx, unless it's because of the 2. I think @*Remnants* is someone who I see as sp/sx. She always feels more contained than you. My gut almost says so/sx actually haha! Even though, I see a lot of sp, and that you fit the sp-2 archetype, so I've always assumed you were sp/sx, and I've seen you say things that were social-last too. So, I suppose that wasn't very helpful. :blushed:

And yeah, I know what you mean about so/sp seeming "formal" (like Pride and Prejudice...:bored, which I'm really not, but then I feel like sp/so are "stuffy", and I don't think I'm that either. Well, maybe a bit, but I like to think it's more broody lol.

Saw this. LOL at sx/sp for @*ElectricSlime*: https://naughty-nanny.tumblr.com/po...oments-instinctual-subtypes?is_related_post=1


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## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Nissa Nissa</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> 
> I never actually asked you why you relate to Two that much, do you have a post to refer me to somewhere ? I do think you strike me as having an oddly present and important inner fantasy world compared to the perception I have of Twos. Like you have *feelings of longing for the princess or victorian aristocrat life*. Maybe it’s the line to 4, or maybe you’re just a NF on steroids:wink:



I guess I get why I come across like that but I want to stab my eyes to avoid seeing that sentence)))
I feel like it's more of a ENFPish thing or...well, I don't think I came across properly, my natural tendency is to try to make things like they are in books, or I don't know it's about atmosphere and thing, wouldn't say I 'long' for those lives, I always try to understand the world through a variety of personas, like I make up avatars in certain time periods and then I research about the world from their perspective, try to make it a memory really, and then if someone's like 'it was in 1850' I can 'remember 1850, what I was doing and what was going on around me, trying to build a lot for a bunch of different time periods and places but it's hard work actually but it's like a memory palace thing
So idk I don't really see myself as...so princessy/Victorian/whatever, it's practical romanticism
Have to go wander the moors though so I don't have time to talk about how I relate to 2, I wrote a post a long time ago, I'll post it will cut out parts that I don't like or think are relevant anymore (in some cases I don't relate to what I wrote lol): 



Nissa Nissa said:


> *Pride*
> Pride was originally difficult for me to identify in myself, and it's still rather difficult for me to identify, which I think is typical for Type 2. I traditionally considered humility one of my better qualities since I was quite famous for apologizing all the time, being I guess a person with low confidence, which I never thought was a bad thing though I tried not to be too annoying. I think this kind of 'false humility' is pretty common in 2, and is an imitation of the virtue and of the line to 4.
> 
> I _did_ however, always relate to the 'other' kind of pride, the crinkly kind: for instance here's a little poem I wrote in middle school - not very good:
> 
> _I was a daughter of Envy and Pride
> That ancient tribe which rides on the wind
> Its horses beat battlefields in the cold air
> They rush to their castles with stone in their faces
> And stone in the eyes, and ghosts in their places
> Soar skyward. The flush of their anger,
> The flesh of their prize, their proud brows and warcries
> and raiments deny that the heart is all a-tremble.
> But their coats of arms are not a mask
> No, the soul runs thick with blood
> A ghastly lake deep in the spirit ties
> Brother to brother, soul to soul
> I am a daughter of Envy and Pride
> I ride on the world as a sceptre of fire
> And my heart is deep with the wind._
> 
> However, I do have a lot of pride, not just this ^ nice thing which is really more of a virtue imo, which shows up...an example would be a dream I had once, which I found very interesting from a psychological standpoint. Copying and pasting, shared it on another thread once when it was clearer in my memory:
> _I had a dream that Zeus was coming back to Earth and he was going to choose a bride, and I was really excited because I thought that he would definitely choose me. Anyways, he had all the girls be floating in a river, unclothed, through this house, so that he could properly make his choice, but he was criticizing each one or making some comment like 'she's ok, we can move her to the next round'. It was a really long wait, so I brought a book to learn Greek, was reading it. When my turn came, his great judgement of me was "You're not as good at languages as you think you are."_
> 
> And I was very upset, not just because he didn't choose me, but because it was such an ordinary criticism that I received, it was a doubly strong blow to my pride. I commented on it here (I'm not sure if I'd phrase it the same way now (hopefully not so pretentiously) and it's definitely something I try to work on).
> _
> Two, then, is kept from God by pride and a misunderstanding of love. A deep-seated conflation of love and power. This I feel strongly. It feels like an almost insurmountable issue in my spiritual life. Today I was in my class with the church and watching a DVD about Mary. And I felt very poorly watching it, because I was realizing how utterly my humility failed me. How everything, with me, is a matter of image. I once mentioned a dream I had once where Zeus was coming to Earth and picking a bride, and I was so surprised that he didn't choose me. That's a terrible thought I have in regards to Mary -- well, if God was going to choose someone, why not me? (One of the rare cases where the question is answered by itself). And in this case, you see, I am viewing myself as a maiden -- in a 'sexual' regard. That was never the point of Mary. She was the carrier of life, the mother of God, who was full of humility and grace, not another Thracian maid who'd be carried off to Olympus and live amongst gods.
> But that's my trouble. I want to be an object of adoration. I want men to feel ill with desire when they look at me. I had never understood why Casanova was a 2 archetype before I realized it about myself. Of course, it's inverse due to the gender difference, but essentially I want to make conquests - not actual sexual conquests, but I want men to love me, adore me, be in love with me, I want to have them in my power -- and because I idolize Humility, I want to do so unknowingly)
> _
> 
> That and...I've always had difficulty with not sounding pretentious, really massive difficulty with that, and...difficulty not being an optimist, which is prideful in a way. For instance, even though I've never been very attractive or liked by the opposite sex, I always assume deep down that they are in love with me - of course I wouldn't admit it, but if you gave me Veritaserum that is probably what I would say, I would believe that there are twenty men playing the Niles Crane to my Daphne))
> 
> *Flattery*
> I'm not sure exactly what the Enneagram definition of this is, but I will use this slot to talk about the helping/seducing element of the 2 character that gets talked about a lot, because I suspect that's the thing.
> 
> I think I am slightly different from the textbook 2 because I have never really felt that I could be of much use or interest; the world spinning on its own and anything I did would be a mere intrusion. So I never really fell into the 'overly helpful 2' pattern. I was always hoping someone would suddenly come to me, needing help, as a child I was especially keen on the idea of babies being deposited on my doorstep or seeing abandoned dogs or cats on the side of the road. But - that never happened. So my general impression of the world is always something that needs me a lot less than I need it. And my assumption has _always_ been that I will be loved less. When I think about love, I assume it is unrequited.
> 
> I want to mention a daydream I commonly had as a child which I think represents a 2 theme. I liked to imagine that I was really poor and lived with my family - I think a bunch of younger siblings - in an underground little cave under a rock out of town, and that every day when I went to school I had to collect stray pieces of popcorn, coins I found, etc., to support them, as well as, through some magical rock thing, little bits of warmth to bring back to the cold cave, which was all the warmth they could have. I think that represents well how I see the world -- that strong sense of lack, a feeling that you have to collect warmth in this way. To me this is what really marks a 2 from other types. A feeling of lack of love, lack of warmth, a feeling that this must be created or collected. I suppose that is how it might relate to the Holy Will. Recognizing oneself as part of the universe.
> 
> But to me a 2 is a person who is trying to fill a chasm. It's something I have against a lot of descriptions -- they sound much too 9ish. Too nice, but also -- too petty, too small. I think there is always something a little more..._desperate_ in 2s, whether they realize it or not.
> 2 is gigantic, in my opinion. That's part of the pride. I think it was Maitri who described 2 as dividing the world into gods and peasants. In my opinion, that's how 2 is, that's how 2 experiences the world, larger than life. Myopic. Some people are the stars of the 2s universe and some people are nothing at all.
> 
> In terms of 'seducing', I always just tried to be beautiful and a person who people would fall in love with) But for that matter it never worked, even when I was reasonably attractive guys never liked me, and now I've gotten fat and somewhat less likeable and pretty much given up on that front, so I don't have much to say on it)
> 
> *- What do the integration and disintegration lines associated with your type mean to you? How do they work? What about holy ideas? Soul children?
> These are optional, but could contribute to an interpretation of a type.*
> Disintegration - to 8 it feels a little obvious, personally I become a little rage machine)
> But I kind-of like disintegrating tbh) I wish I would more often) I feel way more connected to the world, things are more awesome, I get into a mindset like 'if no one's going to bring the world to me I'm going to take it for myself and I don't care what comes of it'. But it doesn't last long enough to be useful
> 
> Soul child - I was talking to my mother about my theory about integration/soul children (that your integration type is obsessed with something you've given up on and will therefore annoy you a bit because the wound is still raw) and she thought that the transition from 4 to 2 sounded like something literal that took place in my childhood. I'd been thinking that it was probably more metaphysical than that, but now I'm not sure. I remember as a child that she would always get sad when I would, idk, shed my originality. And I've been thinking about it and I can see it now. Not the things she was often thinking of -- like wearing colorful socks -- but I think I started to find authentic expression and a focus on origin embarrassing. I started introducing foreign elements into my personality in order to be liked.
> 
> For instance, I remember when I was thirteen, I felt absolutely in love with this boy, and I was consulting with an acquaintance about how to win his heart, and she told me, "You're too serious. He's the kind of guy who likes to have fun, you have to be fun, look like you're having fun, fun to hang out with, be friends with him and then maybe he'll start to like you" and...previously the concept of 'fun' had been utterly foreign to me, seemed so stupid. But I think I came around to the idea, and was from then on always trying to be fun. I no longer even know if I relate to the concept or not, but even now I'm always really cautious about seeming too serious, always trying to buy tacky costume jewellery or wear weirdly bright colors or strange kinda fake things so that I will come off as 'fun')


basically I feel that the main focus on my life is on being loved, liked, etc., is on shame and trying to I don't know, can't sum up my thoughts



mistakenforstranger said:


> I guess this means you're sp/sx (because of cats) then ? :tongue: No, I don't think you're Social last.


I was going to make a disclaimer but then I was like 'no, everyone will understand I don't mean that' :tongue:



> Haha, I guess so, think 4s are more the cats, if 2s are the dogs. Cats are also more Fi, and dogs are Fe too, so maybe that's why it's harder to relate to 2, since they do lean towards types with Fe-Si. I'm kind of cat-like when around other people for the first time, but I eventually warm up once I get to know you, and become more "dog"-like then lol. But, my spirit animal is probably most similar to an owl because I stay up all hours of the night. I've always felt a connection to owls. I guess that makes me a 5...


:laughing:



> I thought 4 was a possibility, mostly because of the romanticism/longing that you see in her too, but I don't know if I still see it when I've asked if 4 would work for her. Not that 2s can't be romantic, but it's of a different sort, since 2s are Positive Triad, and 4s are anything but that. That line about being an NF on steroids made me laugh.


I'm open to arguments for 4 but it doesn't seem to work, again don't have time to explain

Anyways Victorian thing reminded me of this singer, don't relate to everything she sings (she gets really...reactive I guess and annoying in some places), does have one line 'filthy Victorians made me what I'm made of' which I don't have the same feelings about, one of those annoying reactive things to me, but I think about it occasionally as semi-relevant to my personality

Anyways @Animal (I know you're not responding to things, don't be stressed, just don't want to be talking behind your back) typed her as 7, a lot of people say she's 4, I still kinda think she's a 2 (but I could see any of those options tbh)

Anyways she has a lot of songs which to me express 2ish things, which I relate to:






_She's locked up with a spinning wheel
She can't recall what it was like to feel
She says, "This room's gonna be my grave
And there's no one who can save me, "I like this, relates to the feeling of often feeling trapped, sometimes just literally inside like I don't know what to do myself, waiting for someone to come save me
She sits down to her colored thread
She knows lovers waking up in their beds
She says, "How long can I live this way relatable
Is there someone I can pay to let me go I love this line so much, no idea how to explain how relatable it is,
feels 2ish in a way, just how frustrated and I don't know, can't I just give you something, can't I pay somehow
'Cause I'm half sick of shadows
I want to see the sky
Everyone else can watch as the sun goes down
So why can't I often feel like everyone in the world is living their lives while I'm just locked away
And it's raining
And the stars are falling from the sky
And the wind
And the wind I know it's cold
I've been waiting
For the day I will surely die
And it's here
And it's here for I've been told
That I'll die before I'm old
And the wind I know it's cold..."
She looks up to the mirrored glass
She sees a horse and rider pass
She says, "This man's gonna be my death
'Cause he's all I ever wanted in my life love this because this is exactly what I do
And I know he doesn't know my name
And that all the girls are all the same to him yes, this is an exact mirror of my thought processes
But still I've got to get out of this place
'Cause I don't think I can face another night
Where I'm half sick of shadows
And I can't see the sky
Everyone else can watch as the tide comes in
So why can't I
And it's raining
And the stars are falling from the sky
And the wind
And the wind I know it's cold
I've been waiting
For the day I will surely die
And it's here
And it's here for I've been told
That I'll die before I'm old
And the wind I know it's cold..." 
But there's willow trees
And little breezes, waves, and walls, and flowers
And there's moonlight every single night
As I'm locked in these towers ugh, I just want to experience the world so much and I always feel so blocked from it
So I'll meet my death
But with my last breath I'll sing to him I love
And he'll see my face in another place, "very me
And with that the glass above
Cracked into a million bits
And she cried out, "So the story fits
But then I could have guessed it all along
'Cause now some drama queen is gonna write a song for me, "
She went down to her little boat
And she broke the chains and began to float away
And as the blood froze in her veins she said,
"Well then that explains a thing or two
'Cause I know I'm the cursed one
I know I'm meant to die
Everyone else can watch as their dreams untie
So why can't Iyep, just really like it_

And I really like the Lady of Shallot story, didn't really know what to do with it in my stories but wrote this bit (it's significant only because my main character had locked her in a tower as she was projecting her own feelings on her, so...yeah)










And this, no time to explain why I relate or think it's 2ish, idk, bolding important parts







*Willow, weep for me 
Bow your tallest tree 
Down to the infamous hands 
Of someone no one understands 

I'm not unique in this 
It's based on none but my mistake 
At night I lie awake 
Thinking of all the hearts I'd happily break 
*
It's cruel I know 
At least they tell me so 
*Well someone lock me up and throw away the key 
Because I'm not ashamed, oh no 
Oh, willow 

That I only write love songs 
To those whom I don't love 
I only reach for him 
Who's tied to someone else's glove 
That which I hold inside 
Which I admire and deride 
Which I protect and hide is yours 
*
Willow, weep for me 
Don't think I don't see 
This life I'm living in two 
But still it's something I must do 
*I'm not unique in this 
Nor am I special, sweet or kind 
I court a thousand smiles 
Yet I keep my own to hide behind 

It's cruel I know 
At least they tell me so 
Well someone lock me up and throw away the key 
Because I'm not ashamed, oh no 
Oh, willow 

That I only write love songs 
To those whom I don't love 
I only reach for him 
Who's tied to someone else's glove 
That which I hold inside 
Which I admire and deride 
Which I protect and hide is yours *

Slander and distension 
They're parlor games to me 
Papers overrun with lies too mad to mention 
You say they never hurt you 
No consequence, I'm happy 
We're much too far above it all 
But oh no, that's not true 
*These wicked pastimes take their toll 
These tyrant vices break your soul 
Deliver me from all I am 
And all I never want to be 

I love you (Oh willow, willow, willow) 
Doubt me not 
Rewrite this plot for all to see 
*
Bend your branches to the ground and hold me close 
Let me harmonize with all we knew 
Share your sympathy and weep for me 
Oh, willow, heal the hearts I've broken 
*Make me pure and start my song anew *

(I think the first poem I wrote was about a willow tree, I was six or something and it began: "The weeping willow, sadly minor, cried to Killore, 'my dearest highnor!'"

Which kills me because a. I heard that 'minor' chords sounded sad so I thought 'minor' was a good word to use to suggest the sound of a minor key and b. I thought 'highnor' was the masculine form of 'highness' and invented the name 'Killore' to rhyme with that :laughing:

Not type-related obviously, it's just one of my favourite things ever


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> Well, I don't think you're sp-last, but you don't feel sp/sx, unless it's because of the 2. I think @Remnants is someone who I see as sp/sx. She always feels more contained than you. My gut almost says so/sx actually haha! Even though, I see a lot of sp, and that you fit the sp-2 archetype, so I've always assumed you were sp/sx, and I've seen you say things that were social-last too. So, I suppose that wasn't very helpful.


Yes I'm just definitely not anywhere near as contained as @Remnants (even though in some ways we are surprisingly similar, also not sure what her instincts are)
Idk if it's just because of different core type and possibly extroversion?

My thought process is similar, sp 2 fits and I'm not sx last and imo many things about me are so last-ish but I also have like...idk these So things (or could this be 6-ish/3-ish?), for example my dad taught me to have a firm handshake, and for a long time as a child I was really proud of my firm handshake lol, and then as a teen I realized popular girls handshakes were as limp as a dead octopus, like they'd just give you their relaxed hand, and not sure how exactly things went from there but now I don't see a point of firm handshakes, I'm not a businessman and I hate the thought of projecting confidence like that and a man thinking "Damn, she has such a strong handshake" seems awful.
Which could also be anti-So?
Because it's not like...the thing with popular girls is more that I saw them as like princesses who knew the secrets of beauty and love, and who were _princesses_, it wasn't about social standing or wanting my handshake to be soft so I'd fit in with them, if that makes sense? 
(and well didn't spend that much time actively thinking about it)
Generally not sure what this means but my father was always my only/biggest real seeming external point of reference, like my stepmother before my prom said something like "She's dressed like your ideal woman" :laughing: , it's the kind of thing he'd always try to prevent in a way but couldn't, like he always tried to get me to read books, any books, just so I'd learn about life, since living life didn't seem like it was even on the table, that was literally his reasoning (I wasn't a fan of books) but my focus is naturally so narrow. 
(not that reading books means your focus is broad but...no clue how to explain this, it's one of the reasons why I think my 7 influence is much lesser than it seems from how bored but I guess also vivacious and something else I can be)

(not sure how much sense this makes, feel like there are things that should help link everything together but this is how it's in my mind currently and I have to go soon)


Thank you, I'll keep your gut's opinion in mind 
Wonder if anyone else could see So/sx?
(actually thought about it yesterday, definitely more likely than so/sp and idk if I feel sx/so)


----------



## owlet

Tad Cooper said:


> Cool okay!
> 
> Type one: I relate to the need to improve everything (I wont settle for things, I'll always want to try and improve it i.e I'll enter situations I dont need to because I can see how to make it better). I also want to justify myself so I cant be criticised - I always aim to do my best, be as good as I can, and aim for very specific things which I'll work towards until I achieve it. I also relate to integration to seven (joyous/happy/spontaneous etc when positive) and disintegration to four (moody, irrational etc). I dont relate to being excessively harsh, and I believe right and wrong are part of a grey spectrum. I am unsure about the higher power thing, as I'm generally agnostic, but drawn towards those ideals despite being very scientifically minded.
> 
> Type two: I relate to being generous, to the point of losing out myself in a material way, but I feel I do gain back what I put out through me being happy when people I care about are happy or when I know Ive done something good. I try to help people towards their goals in kind of a nurturing way and am generally warm to people until they do something to wrong me or someone/something I care about i.e. someone messes with my family or someone belittles my ideals. I tend to give people attention and compliments etc unless Im in a bad mood. I dont relate to needing to be needed or worrying about being loved, I actually prefer to have my deeds not be noticed or not be commented on a lot of the time (sometimes I like it but mostly it makes me feel awkward).
> 
> Type three: I relate to being charming and good with people - I have a social mask I worked on in school in order to get by. I can be concerned with what others think of me, especially when Im in an insecure mood. I also tend to need encouragement to get going with things - I do get on with things anyway but it seems to be easier with encouragement. I also try to motivate others to do their best and achieve their goals. I dont relate to being status conscious, needing to be successful etc. I dont like failing at all, but I dont need to succeed to feel good - more a fear of failure. Im quite happy being a nobody so long as I do what I need to do.
> 
> Type four: I relate to feeling defective and being quite moody. I do worry sometimes I have no place in the world and I'm just phasing in and out. Im also very into finding out about myself, learning who I am, gaining identity etc. Im very aware of my negative points, and so suffer from melancholy. It does feel like something is wrong or missing from myself as well. I dont relate to indulging those feelings, allowing myself to express my moods openly, or basing my identity on how unlike others I am.
> 
> Type five: I relate to being incredibly curious, independent and inventive - I tend to do things in my own way (i.e. I learned how to do long division in my own way which involves flipping the equation on its side which people found weird but it works well). Im very hungry for knowledge and tend to look up/research questions and ideas frequently. I also relate to disintegration to seven (scattered etc) and integration to eight (confident when positive etc). I want to be autonomous and capable, I dont like being seen as unable to cope or solve things myself. I dont relate to not needing any form of validation or being socially incapable (I can cope socially despite liking to be alone).
> 
> Type six: I relate to being generally hardworking and reliable, and good at seeing issues and resolving them quickly. Im very indecisive but can also be reactionary i.e. if people say/do something wrong I'll react strongly to it, but I also struggle to decide where to meet people to go for coffee. I like to feel I have some level of support if I need it. I hate feeling abandoned or left behind. I dont relate to fearing being without support/security as I quite like to go off as I need to, to do what I need to do, without needing a base to return to. I dont feel like I need anyone, but I do like to be with people.
> 
> Type seven: I relate to being scattered at times, playful and witty. I can be quite impatient with life generally, wanting things to happen sooner and not have to sit waiting - I can almost see whats going to happen so just want it done. Im very curious about lots of things and tend to need to go and learn about it, usually by trying it out myself. I tend to learn lots of different things and accumulate different skills. I dont relate to being optimistic or excitable over most things. Im not very energetic and I dont fear being deprived/pained - I dont care about pain etc and am happy to deprive myself for a good reason or for things/people I care about.
> 
> Type eight: I relate to being protective, wanting to be strong and autonomous, and I struggle to let my vulnerable side show. Im very careful to keep my vulnerabilities to myself unless I believe they need to be talked about. I do worry people will try to control me and am very aggressive stopping people from controlling me i.e. I'll pointedly go against someone who tries to dictate how I should live etc. I dont relate to being domineering or confrontational (I can be but dont like to do it). I also struggle with confidence, decisiveness and striving to leave a mark. I tend to let people think theyre pushing me around unless I dont want them to think that, but have my inner stability which they cant touch.
> 
> Type nine: I relate to wanting things to go smoothly and without conflict. Im also supportive of people a fair amount and tend to try and smooth things over to stop issues arising. I am also very stubborn i.e. people can try to make me do something but if I dont want to do it, or dont want to do it their way, then I wont, no matter who they are. I dont relate to being complacent or just going along with things if I actually care about the subject. I dont like to simplify problems and tend to confront people individually to solve issues - so minimise extreme conflict but will bring things up to solve them.


So far the ones standing out are 2, 3 and 8, but a lot of the points you raised are more behavioural, which I don't feel comfortable using (as the motivation behind the actions is the important part). If you look through your internal reactions to things, which of the core fears most affects you?



Rose for a Heart said:


> I think it's an attempt at _personifying _something abstract, as this wiki page states:
> 
> Sure, there are gender roles and you find them off-putting, but individuation is precisely about going beyond that. So I don't understand the resistance to these ideas. I am not sure what you mean by "externalized perspective" but for me it comes from introspection - so it's internal. I find "observational/behavioral studies" limiting if you are trying to test the validity of something, because it can be relevant and valid even outside of it.
> 
> Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you think it's valid - because I see it as a rope you can follow that can take you to a meaningful destination or goal. There's no way to quantify everything that exists in reality, we will only ever see facets of it. And that is perfectly fine. You can have your own definition of those two energies. As long as it's relevant to you and works for you, that's fine.
> 
> As for duality not being "complex enough" @*Greyhart*, I think the complexity stems _from _the duality. Like I said earlier to owlet, reality is vast and boundless, these are just ways to make sense of it. Doesn't mean it can replace reality itself.


It comes across as an externalised view due to the fact it's very much a dichotomy, whereas the internal experience of the vast majority of people is a massive grey area. I was wondering how the data was gathered on it (through observational studies or something else) because that impacts how the theory itself was formed. Could you elaborate on this, as I struggle to see how having the gender roles there in the first place is conducive to individuality:


> Sure, there are gender roles and you find them off-putting, but individuation is precisely about going beyond that.


Also, have you read any Judith Butler? Her books (especially on the performance of gender) are a major reason I'm not a fan. (It may also not matter to _you_ if I think it's valid or not, but it matters to me so please don't dismiss that.)



ElectricSlime said:


> I didn't say it out of personal hostility but rather because I'm hoping others who might see it will take notice, and for that to happen it needs to be said. Sorry but it's true.


So you're making an example of someone who just came into the thread to ask a question? Remember, even if you are on the internet, that people posting here are real people and have some empathy for them. Attack the argument, not the person.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@*owlet* why do you think looking at it as a dichotomy would somehow undermine the complex experience of people, or the "grey areas"? Does it really?

@*ElectricSlime* one thing I would point out as an Sx/So introvert is that I can see how the archetypal descriptions might be true of me if I were in the healthiest place right now (the shooting star, the flamenco dancer) because I do feel that the Sx/So subtype is designed to _shine _- or at the very least grab attention - in the public eye. I am beginning to realize that now, and that this is how I am designed, and I don't want to feel ashamed of it anymore. Because most of my life I have felt that my energy was ugly or unwanted somehow (due to traumatic experiences with repeated rejections at the deepest level). I _am _intense, and it's not even just my BPD, it's just how I am! Most people seem to really be uncomfortable with that fire and I get the impression they would rather I tamed it. I want to realize the full positive potential of it than be ashamed of it at this point. But that is something I am working on. 

Anyways, as an introvert, I would say that I don't actively engage socially that much. I prefer solitude. But it doesn't mean that I don't stand out on public platforms if given the chance - this forum for example. I am not _trying_ to, it's just how I am built. In real life, I am fairly shy and withdrawn and I grab attention in a more subtle way because I am not loud or talkative or anything like that. But I _am _still Sx/So, and my presence, the way I dress, etc. does seem to catch momentary attention. This is something I have only recently started realizing.


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet* why do you think looking at it as a dichotomy would somehow undermine the complex experience of people, or the "grey areas"? Does it really?


Because a dichotomy implies the experience is a line, which you can pass from one end to the other of, or sit somewhere in-between, but you must always be somewhere on that line. People don't have brains built upon lines.
Could you respond to the things I asked in my response to you now?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Paradigm said:


> I mean, in reality it's all subtypes and none at the same time. It really depends on what you mean by "team" and "support." @*ElectricSlime* seems to have taken it as stereotypically SOC ("Prussian") 6, whose descriptions I feel are incredibly wrong and ignores the reality that individualistic SOC 6s exist. But if one takes your wording in a "looser" way, then it's not exactly wrong, it's just that it can be an individual than a team/group, and often it's something/someone that is analyzed critically than unconditionally followed. And some 6s don't have anyone who supports them, or otherwise don't feel supported by those around them, which obviously some people will react to as "I don't need support" because it's their reality.


That makes sense, thanks! So a 6 could react to the situation and say they dont need support despite wanting it in some way? I used the example with a group as it was the clearest example I could think of, but I do get it can be that 6s draw from other sources for support as they need it i.e. ideals etc not just people.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> Hmm I don't think I ever act on those feelings actually. Usually I keep it to myself - sometimes I get bothered by the smallest, most trivial things so maybe that's why I don't share my thoughts or do something about it. though I might vent about it to a close friend if it's stays on my mind. Wanting to act on it does seem true for Ones though;
> 
> 
> 
> I've read 1s struggle with self criticism because they set high standards for themselves, and they don't want to be a flawed person. Though I could see similar issues with other types like 3s and 5s maybe? 5's have a focus on competency (basic desire is to be "capable and competent").
> 
> I've read about some of the types and I'm wondering if I'm actually a 5 with possibly a 6 wing? The description of fives sounds a lot like me (apart from competency, because I don't understand what it means lol)
> 
> From what learned about 4s, they are focused on the persona and image they project, and want their self expression to be authentic (like you have mentioned) but I don't feel a need to express this. I feel like everyone already clearly has character, including myself, and that comes off to others naturally. Self expression is something I admire, but I don't feel a need to be authentic myself (despite often feeling different from others)


Yeah I thought that for ones, they do tend to act and are forward people i.e. if they see a wrong they have to deal with it, they cant ignore it. Then again Id imagine some ones, with less confidence etc, would feel they wanted to act but were unable to.

3s for sure hate criticism, especially relating to their personal failings, whereas 1s I think are critical of themselves and others so are more accepting if it's from themselves - maybe less so if it's from an untrusted source? 5s it seems more that they want to feel competent in themselves and things/events etc which make them feel insecure in their competency, so less about criticism.

What sort of thing sound like 5 for you? This might be useful:
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-1-and-5/

Hmm with the 4 stuff that seems more like it's in your tritype maybe but not your core?


----------



## Tad Cooper

ElectricSlime said:


> Why don't you research it then ? It really irks me that people who consider types won't even read up the available excerpts on them from the major authors, yet come here asking to be typed. You're doing a disservice to yourself _and_ the people helping you, since the process might take half as long if effort was put in from the other end. This happens way too often here.
> 
> And it's Sexual, as a trend.


I did research it, I'm asking you what you meant though, it wasnt clear! I also havent asked to be typed as far as Im aware? I asked for clarification. 
Try not to overreact before clarifying things, it's not *elegante*.


----------



## Paradigm

Tad Cooper said:


> That makes sense, thanks! So a 6 could react to the situation and say they dont need support despite wanting it in some way? I used the example with a group as it was the clearest example I could think of, but I do get it can be that 6s draw from other sources for support as they need it i.e. ideals etc not just people.


Yeah, basically. It's human nature to protect your own ego, which includes telling yourself lies like "I don't need support" when it's the one thing you want - otherwise, you'd have to confront things about yourself or situation you might not want to, that might risk your own self-image or self-esteem. All types engage in this behavior, and can feasibly take any sort of manifestation depending on life circumstances, though I can see how there would be some slight correlations (but I think correlations are overblown, like it's not only 4 who lies to themselves about how "unique" they are, or not only 6 who desires "support").


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> (I've had a pretty bad earache all day so don't have the will to reply too much.)
> Type 2 won't necessarily do acts of service to people in a physical way, but may be something more distant (can't think of an example right now, but I'll try to come back to it). They mostly want an obvious sign (which is often through something like gratitude) to show that they're loved by others. From what you wrote on type 7, I was wondering what you mean by dwelling on feelings, if you don't mind elaborating?


sometimes...I force people to watch videos I find funny or listen to music I like, it's like a gift which is also a chore 
I mean, I do think 2 is the closest fit (though I'm interested in responses to my long post at the top of the page) but it's hard for me to think of ways I do acts of service for people, even in an abstract way. I would like to and it's a bit sad for me that I don't really...have anything to give, I'm happy when I am able to do something for someone, I think it's more about the fact that I could have an effect on them though. Like...it's a bit awful but it can be satisfying when you realize you've hurt someone (I don't mean physically!-or on purpose necessarily), like obviously if someone's upset that they think I don't like them very much or they think I'm ignoring them or something, that's fantastic (unless I actually dislike them or want to ignore them in which case it's genuinely sad), and I don't take pleasure from social gaffes or something that caused someone pain, but realizing that an argument is upsetting someone else, or things like that, just some sign I have some power or effect on someone, which I generally don't feel, it's a good thing, and I think it can dip into line-to-8 territory in that I can keep pushing them to try to get some reaction out of them, think I used to do it more than I do now

And I think it's similar if I think of some good gift for someone or something, which I never do...like I can count on my hands how often in my life I thought 'oh, that had a good effect', sometimes I have good ideas like when my family was gone I was rearranging the furniture and cleaning (as I usually do when they go away) and I thought it would be good to make like a useful art desk, I'd heard my mother talking about wanting to do more painting which she hadn't done for years but she's good at painting and I thought if the various art supplies weren't scattered throughout the house and there was an obvious place to do it, she would do it, actually it became the 'corner of art supplies where things without a place get thrown' corner but I still think it was a good idea lol, could have worked - again kinda a gift that was a chore, don't think a single person ever did art there (well, including me)

But idk I think about people and I...I don't know, my life is all about the people around me, that's what I base all my decisions on, that feels 2ish, never really had goals outside of the people I loved, don't understand people who sacrifice relationships for their career or whatever, I'm just...the worst image for me was always like living in some sort of white-washed wall complex and working at a factory for just myself, not having anyone to live for, I don't know what it means to live for myself, that feels like the lowest of the low

________________

to actually answer your question, dwelling on my feelings...

well it's like all I do on here for one))

I walk around all day, I think about how I feel, I mean that sounds strange and I think about a variety of topics but if I'm walking for example I'm listening to music and even if I'm not actively emotional about something (in which case it's the only thing I think about and I listen to just songs about it and I think of allegorical stories about it etc) then I'm digging up ancient things, I remember people I was in love with years ago and try to resurrect those feelings, or I have speculative daydreams, maybe about the TV show I was watching or the celebrity I was thinking of or the story I'm writing but it's a constant analysis and I'm always somehow present with the feelings, sometimes perhaps not feelings but just impressions but it's still...dwelly, somehow, I never let things go, I never want to.

I don't relate to trying to run away from feelings, sometimes I want to avoid harsh realities but I'm comfortable in the world of emotion, there's a line in Hotel California 'some dance to remember, some dance to forget', think I always dance to remember

Like this song:





_I dance to the point of laughter
I ask that the day will never return
To tell the truth, I'm less afraid 
Of vampires than of your memory
I dance to the point of laughter
At night life is slightly less bad
To tell the truth, I'm less afraid 
Of vampires than of your memory_

I'm not saying it will never happen but I just don't understand that really, never tried to escape emotions or memories, for example never understood the 'drinking to forget' concept, if I drink it's because I want to specifically nurse an emotion and feel it more clearly and strongly, maybe if I'm afraid it will fade from me. I mean I feel a little naive writing this because someday I might feel a pain so great I'll just want to forget it, but it hasn't happened so far is what I mean. What I generally need is more a push to stop recycling my old dead emotions, to stop squeezing the same teabag for what flavour I can get from it and go out and buy more, stop (figuratively!) rolling around in my own filth


----------



## Rouskyrie

Honestly, after more introspection it's starting to seem as though I'm not a 9w1 as I previously thought, but rather a 2w1.


----------



## Coburn

Nissa Nissa said:


> Like...it's a bit awful but it can be satisfying when you realize you've hurt someone (I don't mean physically!-or on purpose necessarily), like obviously if someone's upset that they think I don't like them very much or they think I'm ignoring them or something, that's fantastic


You make me realize human brain thoughts are much, much, much more varied than I thought. 

If someone is upset for these reasons, I'd be put off by the fact that I'm having such a profound impact on them. The idea that they've assigned responsibility to me to be the pivot on which their emotions turn is...really burdensome. I'd want to tell them to stop depending on me and be a little more self reliant.

What do you do with that knowledge once you have it? How does it change your relationship with a person?

I know for me I would begin to withdraw and put distance between us.


----------



## Cacaia

Coburn said:


> You make me realize human brain thoughts are much, much, much more varied than I thought.
> 
> If someone is upset for these reasons, I'd be put off by the fact that I'm having such a profound impact on them. The idea that they've assigned responsibility to me to be the pivot on which their emotions turn is...really burdensome. I'd want to tell them to stop depending on me and be a little more self reliant.
> 
> What do you do with that knowledge once you have it? How does it change your relationship with a person?
> 
> I know for me I would begin to withdraw and put distance between us.


I think we all would do different things. I for one, would feel honored to be in someone's mind that often. But I understand that it could be burdensome, and a lot of responsibility to have someone's emotions and be able to control them. In my case, I would gently urge them to be a little bit more self reliable by giving suggestions of what they could do, etc. I would coach them and stand by them. But that's just me.


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> So you're making an example of someone who just came into the thread to ask a question? Remember, even if you are on the internet, that people posting here are real people and have some empathy for them. Attack the argument, not the person.


There ain't no argument to attack, and I don't see why there should be one anyway cause it wasn't about proving someone wrong in the first place. I was very much "attacking" the notion of *people expecting other people to do the entirety of their homework for them without pulling their weight*. But hey, you guys keep up circling over superficial traits without even narrowing stuff down if you're having fun, I'll be over there.



Tad Cooper said:


> I did research it, I'm asking you what you meant though, it wasnt clear! I also havent asked to be typed as far as Im aware? I asked for clarification.
> Try not to overreact before clarifying things, it's not *elegante*.


Semantics. Asking for clarification in explaining how you relate to each type is an implicit request to be typed.

And it's funny because from my point of view it's you guys who are overreacting by going full white knight and talking about empathy and respecting the human being behind the screen over such trivial shit.

But hey, I said what I wanted and it's not much of my business anyway, so you guys keep up your work I guess.

Edit: I will say that I don't think the bolded was your intention at least, but rather I saw your post as a an opportunity to address the subject as a whole.


----------



## Coburn

Cacaia said:


> I think we all would do different things. I for one, would feel honored to be in someone's mind that often. But I understand that it could be burdensome, and a lot of responsibility to have someone's emotions and be able to control them. In my case, I would gently urge them to be a little bit more self reliable by giving suggestions of what they could do, etc. I would coach them and stand by them. But that's just me.


Why would you feel honored, but also want to discourage it at the same time? That seems to frame the issue as both positive and negative.

Yeah, for me it's definitely not appealing to have that kind of influence. I'm not going to prioritize their emotions over what I want for myself, so it will only end in frustration for them.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@*Coburn* I feel like 5s (head types in general?) go a little overboard in expecting the worst when it comes to others “wanting something from them.” I have gotten the sense that on some level they feel like they HAVE to do it. So they make it worse for themselves by seeing it as a burdensome obligation, in my opinion. I think I realize what I should or shouldn’t do enough on a visceral level that I would know where to put the boundary. Of course I would discourage codependency and perhaps there would a little element of burden there but I would support them in finding their own strength and resourcefulness in coping with things.

Basically, I wouldn’t freak out as much over it.


----------



## Coburn

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*Coburn* I feel like 5s (head types in general?) go a little overboard in expecting the worst when it comes to others “wanting something from them.” I have gotten the sense that on some level they feel like they HAVE to do it. So they make it worse for themselves by seeing it as a burdensome obligation, in my opinion. I think I realize what I should or shouldn’t do enough on a visceral level that I would know where to put the boundary. Of course I would discourage codependency and perhaps there would a little element of burden there but I would support them in finding their own strength and resourcefulness in coping with things.
> 
> Basically, I wouldn’t freak out as much over it.


I don't think the hypothetical circumstance described can be referred to as "codependency" in any sense of the word. It's not addressing unhealthy or extreme levels of dependency, just a matter of wanting to be liked/wanted by a person of interest (romantic/non-romantic). So far as I'm aware, Nissa's statement was meant in a more casual context.

What kind of boundary do you feel is needed with someone who is concerned about whether or not you like them or if you are ignoring them?


----------



## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, I think he's definitely sx/so, and I also want to say he's a 6w7 too (but he was recently put forth as being 4w3 so/sx elsewhere, but I can't see it...), so maybe that could be another reason why he's similar.


I think he's 3 ? He strikes me as image triad over head triad, and I think I'd sooner see him struggle with Seven issues even if he was one. 



> I agree with that about Milo too, he's trying to get a rise out of people. It's very Fe, but is he 1D Ti, or even 2D Te? Seems his Te is stronger than that.


Well EIE still have capable Te so it shouldn't be that weird. Pretty sure he's prone to make up stats on the spot to imbalance his opponent who doesn't have access to fact checking in the spur of the moment, so we can safely rule out LXI haha. Although he's definitely smart, I'd say his strengths definitely lean more in rhetoric than reasoning. 



> Hmm, I thought the Joker was ENTP too; though, I don't know if he would be ILE in Socionics. Batman/Bruce Wayne is a total Gamma. Why so serious??


I'm thinking most Joker incarnations are ILE, be it in the comics the Arkham Games and the old animated series (such a masterpiece): 




But the more obvious ILE of the show would be Riddler, you can practically feel the Fe HA and the Fi PolR of his dorky smug smile after being a condescending dick yet getting a laugh out of people: 







> Nope, that's your Type 6 at play! You can't escape the Enneagram...


I mean, I'm pretty sure the Enneagram spanned from looking at the major disorders and deciding to make watered down archetypes out of them :violin:



> I saw Social 6s mentioned earlier, and I think Jon Stewart is a Social 6.


Stephen Colbert too, probably.



> Saw this. LOL at sx/sp for @*ElectricSlime*: https://naughty-nanny.tumblr.com/po...oments-instinctual-subtypes?is_related_post=1


*looks into the distance with a sardonic smile*

But seriously these kinda suck :dry: I like the contrast between Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx in the post right below though, I can see myself in them anyway.




Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet* why do you think looking at it as a dichotomy would somehow undermine the complex experience of people, or the "grey areas"? Does it really?
> 
> @*ElectricSlime* one thing I would point out as an Sx/So introvert is that I can see how the archetypal descriptions might be true of me if I were in the healthiest place right now (the shooting star, the flamenco dancer) because I do feel that the Sx/So subtype is designed to _shine _- or at the very least grab attention - in the public eye. I am beginning to realize that now, and that this is how I am designed, and I don't want to feel ashamed of it anymore. Because most of my life I have felt that my energy was ugly or unwanted somehow (due to traumatic experiences with repeated rejections at the deepest level). I _am _intense, and it's not even just my BPD, it's just how I am! Most people seem to really be uncomfortable with that fire and I get the impression they would rather I tamed it. I want to realize the full positive potential of it than be ashamed of it at this point. But that is something I am working on.
> 
> Anyways, as an introvert, I would say that I don't actively engage socially that much. I prefer solitude. But it doesn't mean that I don't stand out on public platforms if given the chance - this forum for example. I am not _trying_ to, it's just how I am built. In real life, I am fairly shy and withdrawn and I grab attention in a more subtle way because I am not loud or talkative or anything like that. But I _am _still Sx/So, and my presence, the way I dress, etc. does seem to catch momentary attention. This is something I have only recently started realizing.


I see. Well to me it's not so much that I'm looking to dazzle the public scene with my intensity and raw charisma but more that I'm looking to find an outlet to pour that intensity into ?

I guess occasionally it can come out in a social setting around people I know and if I'm particularly entranced but as a whole I think I'm more shrouded in my intensity than focused outwards like that. Hmmm, I do relate to the "fire&ice" writing effect of Sx/So and have received comments like that in the past IRL by a couple of teachers, but I have no idea how it translates here. The "stab in the chest, cutting" one of Sx/Sp could fit just as well I'm tempted to say.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

ElectricSlime said:


> I see. Well to me it's not so much that I'm looking to dazzle the public scene with my intensity and raw charisma but more that I'm looking to find an outlet to pour that intensity into ?


Ah, standing out in some way is not my intention either; it seems like a side effect. With both Sx/Sp and Sx/So, you are going to have all that overt focus on Sx anyway. So they are both primarily concerned with the same thing in my opinion. 

Though I do feel that if given a choice I would rather have my energy "dazzle publicly" than be poured into something specific. I don't want to confine it! Of course, if something hooks my SX, I am pouring myself completely into it anyway. 



> I guess occasionally it can come out in a social setting around people I know and if I'm particularly entranced but as a whole I think I'm more shrouded in my intensity than focused outwards like that. Hmmm, I do relate to the "fire&ice" writing effect of Sx/So and have received comments like that in the past IRL by a couple of teachers, but I have no idea how it translates here. The "stab in the chest, cutting" one of Sx/Sp could fit just as well I'm tempted to say.


My focus is also primarily one on one. I think with Sx/So, you use the Social world only to find what you need to get the SX needs met, and then the SO is pushed to the background or even pretty much discarded. I am not shrouded in my intensity - it catches attention whether I like it or not. 

On the writing stuff, I don't know either. I have heard about those styles, but I am not sure if they really apply. I think Sx/Sp in general give off this stab in the chest feeling - not just while writing. I really like that sharp, intense discharge of energy they do, specially with their eyes, and then they go back to being "shrouded" again. Honestly, I feel like Sx/Sp has always been my favorite stacking haha. At one point I wished I were one :happy:

I don't know if I come across as having "fire/ice" energy.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Coburn said:


> I don't think the hypothetical circumstance described can be referred to as "codependency" in any sense of the word. It's not addressing unhealthy or extreme levels of dependency, just a matter of wanting to be liked/wanted by a person of interest (romantic/non-romantic). So far as I'm aware, Nissa's statement was meant in a more casual context.


Ah, ok. 



> What kind of boundary do you feel is needed with someone who is concerned about whether or not you like them or if you are ignoring them?


I don't really have much more to say on this, except that I won't be "put off" by it or anything like that, since I have been there myself, and I would sympathize with them. I was just trying to point out that this situation isn't inherently that off-putting necessarily; it's about how different personalities might interpret it differently I guess.


----------



## Coburn

Rose for a Heart said:


> Ah, ok.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really have much more to say on this, except that I won't be "put off" by it or anything like that, since I have been there myself, and I would sympathize with them. I was just trying to point out that this situation isn't inherently that off-putting necessarily; it's about how different personalities might interpret it differently I guess.


I can see that. I think for most people, such circumstances don't merit a strong reaction. One thing that stood out to me about Nissa's response was how strongly positive/receptive it was to such a situation, whereas I think I anticipated most people being more neutral (so perhaps closer to your own approach).

I agree that this situation isn't inherently that off putting. And I think most people would feel somewhat flattered/happy to know they were wanted.

I can see how my own approach could qualify as overthinking it, although I usually see myself as not much of a thinker. I believe for myself I'm just really...not comfortable with emotions directed towards me, particularly if they feel like they require something from me in order to persist. I guess that's overthinking? But it's all so instantaneous.


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> Fe-Ni in socionics is about helping manifest a vision in the environment through directing of passions and purpose. It can be done in an inclusive and “nicer” manner (MLK junior) or it can be done in an exclusive (but paradoxically more inclusive for the select few) one like Hitler and the nazis. EIE take their Fe (and themselves) very seriously, more so than a IEI who is usually content charging up the emotional atmosphere playfully. That’s why some EIE can come across as restrained and proper in their expression, because their program revolves around the effect it has and the atmosphere should be “proper”. On the other hand, some of them can be mischievous douchebags 24/7. I should specify that not all EIEs are necessarily social orators who make tirads before people at lunch, they can turn to writing, like Shakespeare who set his laboratory of passions and emotions in his tragedies. Nonetheless, an EIE will rarely let himself write in a dull and factual manner, for it goes against their objective (unless they want to mobilize people towards working in an efficient and serious manner, and I still think it’s a stretch).


I've noticed this as a similarity between me and a friend of mine (who I briefly mentioned, the one who will gladly call himself an idiot along with everyone else) who is apparently an INFJ. I know you're talking socionics here but this description does fit for both me and him. We both tend to have these ideals and standards for communities and groups we're apart of that we take seriously and if we see someone doing something that seems wrong or like it could hurt the community's overall image (or both), we try to do something to fix it. And unlike me, he isn't always nice about it. He's nothing but nice in his personal life but he's fine with seeming like the villain in a group or community he's part of if he feels like it's necessary. And we both do seem more restrained and proper.

I always feel responsible. I don't feel like I can just say what I want and screw what anyone else thinks or the consequences. I hold myself to standards. And I can't say it pains me to do this. I like doing it.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Coburn ESTJ and 8 sounds like an unlikely mix. Do you mind if I ask you more about that? Why type 8? You also seem somewhat 5-ish. Do you relate to type 5?


----------



## Darkbloom

nep2une said:


> I've noticed this as a similarity between me and a friend of mine (who I briefly mentioned, the one who will gladly call himself an idiot along with everyone else) who is apparently an INFJ. I know you're talking socionics here but this description does fit for both me and him. We both tend to have these ideals and standards for communities and groups we're apart of that we take seriously and if we see someone doing something that seems wrong or like it could hurt the community's overall image (or both), we try to do something to fix it. And unlike me, he isn't always nice about it. He's nothing but nice in his personal life but he's fine with seeming like the villain in a group or community he's part of if he feels like it's necessary. And we both do seem more restrained and proper.
> 
> I always feel responsible. I don't feel like I can just say what I want and screw what anyone else thinks or the consequences. I hold myself to standards. And I can't say it pains me to do this. I like doing it.


I'm not like this at all, don't care about communities, don't have ideals or standards 
Especially don't care enough to notice or fix other people's misdeeds, don't feel like anything has anything to do with me.
Maybe not really related but actually in school I remember waiting for someone to do something bad, made me happy partly because then every teacher talked about it so they talked less about boring things, and I also liked that we had a bad reputation:sun-smiley:
(is that So?)
(which could maybe be EIE/Beta too?)
Or different but sometimes I liked people being bad so I could be the only good one :hellokitty:
But that was mostly when I was very little.

But I do feel responsible in a way, just not for communities, more individuals and I don't care about anything that's not about our relationship, and not in this conscientious of a way, don't care about making anyone do and not do things, like I don't have 'standards' for people.


----------



## Coburn

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Coburn ESTJ and 8 sounds like an unlikely mix. Do you mind if I ask you more about that? Why type 8? You also seem somewhat 5-ish. Do you relate to type 5?


So far as I'm aware, most ESTJs type as one, three, or eight on the enneagram. Uncommon combinations are two, nine, and four.

There are a few reasons I felt type eight was still the most relevant (pulled from my type me thread):



> I have a deep fear of vulnerability in interpersonal contexts. I avoid relationships that can potentially result in too much closeness-- too much oversharing of one's self. I distance myself from people (usually sx-doms) who seek to intensely connect with me. I find it intrusive and it threatens my emotional and mental autonomy.
> 
> I have trouble understanding how others perceive me, and this occasionally hurts me in career and goals. I have a fear that people will make it harder to achieve my goals because I do not play the politics and personality game well. I believe very strongly in my abilities, my strength, and my tenacity, but I have little faith in my ability to prevent others from turning against me. I am sometimes concerned others will try and take away what I want. I can fight them, but I don't want to waste time fighting what I don't have to.
> 
> I dislike when people tell me what to do on an emotional scale. A nine telling me to "chill out" will make me see red. I also dislike when people tell me what to do on a moral scale. Someone telling me my choices are morally disgusting pisses me off...Not because that's their view, but because they feel I must share their view.
> 
> I've been told most of my life to stop arguing when I was never arguing. I've been accused of seeking arguments when I was seeking only to clarify my thoughts. I was told I grew up acting like I needed nobody. I had no perspective outside my own and believed only in myself. I had no qualms about hurting others. I've been repeatedly told I have a tendency to push people to the edge and then shove them off when they tell me to stop. It was common for people to tell me "Don't get mad, but..."





> I react emotionally first, then look to solve the problem. I do not consider my emotional reaction to be a step towards resolution, just a means of expressing myself to blow off steam. I generally need to vent out loud first about how stupid or aggravating a problem is before I can focus on dealing with it.





> I know I have the ability to drag myself through anything and come out on top. If it's a matter of sheer endurance, I will win





> I very strongly reject victimhood. Being a victim means acknowledging someone else has influence over you in ways you can't control...Haha, I'm physically tensed up thinking about being a victim. It's very opposite to me. I just refuse to see myself that way. I don't identify with it.





> I feel it was everyone else's mistake to discount me. Not my mistake, theirs. They don't know what they've done, and I'll just go and make a life without them. I don't need them to thrive.


And this: Post #55 



That said, there are behavioral themes I see in myself that don't resonate with eight and definitely feel more competency-oriented. I've so far attributed them to a five fix. 



> I realized that I often ignore conflict at first. Not so that I hope it goes away... more like hitting the pause button on it because I don't feel like dealing with it (why I don't can be for several reasons).





> I have a deep fear of vulnerability in interpersonal contexts. I avoid relationships that can potentially result in too much closeness-- too much oversharing of one's self. I distance myself from people (usually sx-doms) who seek to intensely connect with me. I find it intrusive and it threatens my emotional and mental autonomy.





> I am very quick to react to things, I'm just very slow to let myself get emotionally invested in things beyond surface level. So I will get upset, but I don't get the kind of upset where I am staking my emotional equilibrium on the outcome. I strongly dislike getting emotionally shook up unless it's entirely on my terms.





> Detaching for me is a matter of "going cold." You cut off expectations and hope, and you no longer look to somebody as a resource or companion. You expect nothing from them and seek nothing from them. And then when they try to reconnect you just feel disconnected to the whole effort. Like watching it as a third party observer.





> I couldn't really control my emotions, especially as a kid, so I found detaching worked a lot better. Something upsets you? Nobody cares? Stop giving a shit. Just cut it all off and feel nothing towards it. You can't be hurt by dismissiveness if you don't care about the thing altogether.
> 
> Instead I got up while it was still dark and started walking the 11 miles to school. She woke up to find me missing and had to drive around town to find me. She wanted me to get back in the car and I said no, it was fine. I wasn't mad, just cold. Completely detached. It didn't matter anymore. It was a battle of wills and I was going to overcome it no matter what it took.



I do relate to type five in many ways, but I'm not sure I connect with the search for knowledge or the fear-aspects of the head triad. I don't consider myself to be excessively thought-oriented. I mean, I think, but I've never been told (or personally thought) I overthink anything.


I think what @ElectricSlime said earlier somewhere really summed up a major discrepancy that's bugged me for awhile: I'm assertive, but not necessarily outwardly-expanding aggressive in that way eights are known for.


----------



## Paradigm

Coburn said:


> So far as I'm aware, most ESTJs type as one, three, or eight on the enneagram. Uncommon combinations are two, nine, and four.


ESTJ 9w8 wouldn't surprise me. I imagine a lot of them mistype as introverts. I think a lot of people over-estimate the "extrovertedness" of Te-dom... Or, really, just extrovertedness in general, but that's a slight tangent.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Rose for a Heart said:


> Ah, standing out in some way is not my intention either; it seems like a side effect. With both Sx/Sp and Sx/So, you are going to have all that overt focus on Sx anyway. So they are both primarily concerned with the same thing in my opinion.
> 
> Though I do feel that if given a choice I would rather have my energy "dazzle publicly" than be poured into something specific. I don't want to confine it! Of course, if something hooks my SX, I am pouring myself completely into it anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> My focus is also primarily one on one. I think with Sx/So, you use the Social world only to find what you need to get the SX needs met, and then the SO is pushed to the background or even pretty much discarded. I am not shrouded in my intensity - it catches attention whether I like it or not.
> 
> On the writing stuff, I don't know either. I have heard about those styles, but I am not sure if they really apply. I think Sx/Sp in general give off this stab in the chest feeling - not just while writing. I really like that sharp, intense discharge of energy they do, specially with their eyes, and then they go back to being "shrouded" again. Honestly, I feel like Sx/Sp has always been my favorite stacking haha. At one point I wished I were one :happy:
> 
> I don't know if I come across as having "fire/ice" energy.


What made you not see sx/sp for yourself, though, if you don't mind my asking? I don't think sx/so really discards Social, like you say here. That feels more Social-last. I don't know how it works myself, or if this is even right, but it seems like they put their Sx into the Social environment, and are very aware of the effect they have on it. I feel like Sx/so wants to make waves. They want to stimulate the Social environment, which sounds slightly Fe, but it's less focused on the emotional energy/atmosphere and more on energizing itself (i.e. stimulation). I also think some of what you say above to Coburn shows you have an awareness of sp, by mentioning how you know where to draw the boundary, which I find sx/so don't really, and advising to focus on strength and resourcefulness, which again seems sp. Just some thoughts, and curious what you think.



Vixey said:


> I'm not like this at all, don't care about communities, don't have ideals or standards
> Especially don't care enough to notice or fix other people's misdeeds, don't feel like anything has anything to do with me.
> Maybe not really related but actually in school I remember waiting for someone to do something bad, made me happy partly because then every teacher talked about it so they talked less about boring things, and I also liked that we had a bad reputation:sun-smiley:
> (is that So?)
> (which could maybe be EIE/Beta too?)
> 
> But I do feel responsible in a way, just not for communities, more individuals and I don't care about anything that's not about our relationship, and not in this conscientious of a way, don't care about making anyone do and not do things, like I don't have 'standards' for people.


Dang, just when I think you're so/sx, you go and say this haha! Yeah you're probably social-last. Saw your pictures on collage thread too, and they just have this "suffocating" (at least from my point of view) social-last quality to them. Those images seemed sx/sp.


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> There ain't no argument to attack, and I don't see why there should be one anyway cause it wasn't about proving someone wrong in the first place. I was very much "attacking" the notion of *people expecting other people to do the entirety of their homework for them without pulling their weight*. But hey, you guys keep up circling over superficial traits without even narrowing stuff down if you're having fun, I'll be over there.
> 
> Semantics. Asking for clarification in explaining how you relate to each type is an implicit request to be typed.
> 
> And it's funny because from my point of view it's you guys who are overreacting by going full white knight and talking about empathy and respecting the human being behind the screen over such trivial shit.
> 
> But hey, I said what I wanted and it's not much of my business anyway, so you guys keep up your work I guess.
> 
> Edit: I will say that I don't think the bolded was your intention at least, but rather I saw your post as a an opportunity to address the subject as a whole.


Stop addressing 'the subject as a whole' and just address me and/or Tad. Making a point like that is tiresome and unnecessary - and you're still making assumptions that @Tad Cooper was asking you to type her when she simply asked a question. If it's none of your business, don't reply, and don't make snide remarks about it. It's not hard to be civil to others, yet somehow you're making it seem like an Olympic sport you're completely unqualified to participate in.


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> sometimes...I force people to watch videos I find funny or listen to music I like, it's like a gift which is also a chore
> I mean, I do think 2 is the closest fit (though I'm interested in responses to my long post at the top of the page) but it's hard for me to think of ways I do acts of service for people, even in an abstract way. I would like to and it's a bit sad for me that I don't really...have anything to give, I'm happy when I am able to do something for someone, I think it's more about the fact that I could have an effect on them though. Like...it's a bit awful but it can be satisfying when you realize you've hurt someone (I don't mean physically!-or on purpose necessarily), like obviously if someone's upset that they think I don't like them very much or they think I'm ignoring them or something, that's fantastic (unless I actually dislike them or want to ignore them in which case it's genuinely sad), and I don't take pleasure from social gaffes or something that caused someone pain, but realizing that an argument is upsetting someone else, or things like that, just some sign I have some power or effect on someone, which I generally don't feel, it's a good thing, and I think it can dip into line-to-8 territory in that I can keep pushing them to try to get some reaction out of them, think I used to do it more than I do now
> 
> And I think it's similar if I think of some good gift for someone or something, which I never do...like I can count on my hands how often in my life I thought 'oh, that had a good effect', sometimes I have good ideas like when my family was gone I was rearranging the furniture and cleaning (as I usually do when they go away) and I thought it would be good to make like a useful art desk, I'd heard my mother talking about wanting to do more painting which she hadn't done for years but she's good at painting and I thought if the various art supplies weren't scattered throughout the house and there was an obvious place to do it, she would do it, actually it became the 'corner of art supplies where things without a place get thrown' corner but I still think it was a good idea lol, could have worked - again kinda a gift that was a chore, don't think a single person ever did art there (well, including me)
> 
> But idk I think about people and I...I don't know, my life is all about the people around me, that's what I base all my decisions on, that feels 2ish, never really had goals outside of the people I loved, don't understand people who sacrifice relationships for their career or whatever, I'm just...the worst image for me was always like living in some sort of white-washed wall complex and working at a factory for just myself, not having anyone to live for, I don't know what it means to live for myself, that feels like the lowest of the low
> 
> ________________
> 
> to actually answer your question, dwelling on my feelings...
> 
> well it's like all I do on here for one))
> 
> I walk around all day, I think about how I feel, I mean that sounds strange and I think about a variety of topics but if I'm walking for example I'm listening to music and even if I'm not actively emotional about something (in which case it's the only thing I think about and I listen to just songs about it and I think of allegorical stories about it etc) then I'm digging up ancient things, I remember people I was in love with years ago and try to resurrect those feelings, or I have speculative daydreams, maybe about the TV show I was watching or the celebrity I was thinking of or the story I'm writing but it's a constant analysis and I'm always somehow present with the feelings, sometimes perhaps not feelings but just impressions but it's still...dwelly, somehow, I never let things go, I never want to.
> 
> I don't relate to trying to run away from feelings, sometimes I want to avoid harsh realities but I'm comfortable in the world of emotion, there's a line in Hotel California 'some dance to remember, some dance to forget', think I always dance to remember
> 
> Like this song:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _I dance to the point of laughter
> I ask that the day will never return
> To tell the truth, I'm less afraid
> Of vampires than of your memory
> I dance to the point of laughter
> At night life is slightly less bad
> To tell the truth, I'm less afraid
> Of vampires than of your memory_
> 
> I'm not saying it will never happen but I just don't understand that really, never tried to escape emotions or memories, for example never understood the 'drinking to forget' concept, if I drink it's because I want to specifically nurse an emotion and feel it more clearly and strongly, maybe if I'm afraid it will fade from me. I mean I feel a little naive writing this because someday I might feel a pain so great I'll just want to forget it, but it hasn't happened so far is what I mean. What I generally need is more a push to stop recycling my old dead emotions, to stop squeezing the same teabag for what flavour I can get from it and go out and buy more, stop (figuratively!) rolling around in my own filth


Ah, okay, I think 2 seems like a good bet from this, although I'm not sure about the line to 8 you mentioned (that seems potentially driven by wanting a response from people, which can be from experiences when you're young). With dwelling on emotions, I think the 'drinking to forget' happens more with people who've experienced very traumatic events and don't have the support to recover from them. I can relate to 'stewing in' emotional states with things like music or thinking up scenes or something. Do you use your writing for things like that too? But back on topic, it doesn't sound like 7 is your core fix. I was wondering why you decided on 8 as your gut fix, if you don't mind going into that?


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> Stop addressing 'the subject as a whole' and just address me and/or Tad. Making a point like that is tiresome and unnecessary - and you're still making assumptions that @Tad Cooper was asking you to type her when she simply asked a question. If it's none of your business, don't reply, and don't make snide remarks about it. It's not hard to be civil to others, yet somehow you're making it seem like an Olympic sport you're completely unqualified to participate in.


It’s amazing how no matter what I say you seem to read something else and I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.

Who said I thought Tad was asking me to type her ? I literally just specified it was none of my business so I wouldn’t get further into it. I just pointed out the utter unproductive nature of what happens too often here, and how it lies in the other person’s responsibility. This was a prime example, and I did address you both, can’t help it if you’re not the sole center of it all. 

I will say what I want if I want to if it’s relevant to the thread at hand and doesn’t break the rules, I trust Coburn will give me the stick if I get too far, which I obviously haven’t. I have no apologies to make, grow a pair.
@Nissa Nissa

I think 2 is right, as it is for @Vixey as well.


----------



## Dangerose

Coburn said:


> You make me realize human brain thoughts are much, much, much more varied than I thought.
> 
> If someone is upset for these reasons, I'd be put off by the fact that I'm having such a profound impact on them. The idea that they've assigned responsibility to me to be the pivot on which their emotions turn is...really burdensome. I'd want to tell them to stop depending on me and be a little more self reliant.
> 
> What do you do with that knowledge once you have it? How does it change your relationship with a person?
> 
> I know for me I would begin to withdraw and put distance between us.


I didn't mean co-dependence and I don't think I meant that I was the pivot on which their emotions turned either, much as that is a flattering notion 

Just meant that I have the power to hurt them somehow, I guess, feels like a 2ish thing I think

Agree with what @Rose for a Heart said about head types being very sensitive to obligation, remember Tom Condon writing about that as well

but yeah no one ever gets co-dependent before I do so I don't have that experience at all lol 

but I prefer the idea of codependency in general, I'd rather live for someone and they live for me than just go around randomly living for ourselves



owlet said:


> Ah, okay, I think 2 seems like a good bet from this, although I'm not sure about the line to 8 you mentioned (that seems potentially driven by wanting a response from people, which can be from experiences when you're young). With dwelling on emotions, I think the 'drinking to forget' happens more with people who've experienced very traumatic events and don't have the support to recover from them. I can relate to 'stewing in' emotional states with things like music or thinking up scenes or something. Do you use your writing for things like that too? But back on topic, it doesn't sound like 7 is your core fix. I was wondering why you decided on 8 as your gut fix, if you don't mind going into that?


I mean if I'm a 2 I have to have a line to 8  and I think pushing people aggressively for a reaction can be 8ish, especially looking down from 2? 
and yeah, I know that about the drinking to forget thing (didn't mean drinking necessarily btw) but that's the most obvious example of escaping emotions, it's a confusing thing to do to me, emotions are fun 

As for my gut fix, idk, I've written about it before and I think it's fairly negligible, I know it's hard to see 8 fix for me (at least online? I have the feeling I come across more 8ish in person, when I showed my best friend some things about it she was convinced I was an 8 core (but she didn't know that much about the types) but it feels more right in my tritype, I really don't relate to 9, don't think apathy or keeping the peace or any of that 9 stuff is a significant problem for me, I relate a bit to 1 or I used to but I think it's more aspirational, but I feel like I can be controlling and aggressive and sort-of vengeful/lustful, tend to see myself as physically invulnerable and in the past I had a lot of contempt for weakness, but I went soft and also got a bit nicer  I had to train myself out of more of a warrior chieftain mindset  and that's just a bunch of buzzwords I realize that could be equally 6 or something, I'm not really sure and I think I undoubtedly have _some_ 8 influence, but it could just be the line. But I relate to 8 a tad more of the three in terms of internal things. 

Typed as 9 fix for a while because i saw a thing that was like '8-fixers unapologetically take up space, 9-fixers apologetically take up space' and I tend to apologize a lot for taking up the same air as people, not the sort of person to walk into a room and just feel like 'oh I could put my stuff wherever I like in it', I've had to teach myself how to not get ignored by bartenders and office administrators and such

But I also feel like I am 'outwardly expanding aggressive', that's a really good description of how my anger is, I also fancy myself quite leonine  well, I'm a Leo and I don't believe in astrology but I always thought that was a good sign/animal for me 

And the thing that maybe tipped it for me, I have no clue what 9s are talking about when they talk about their experiences and tbh it's a chore to read and doens't seem to mean anything, 1s eh, not as bad but not actively relatable, things 8s say tend to be _more_ relatable though obviously not 100%, of course that's assuming people are typed correctly but on the whole...

and 278 tritype 'clicks' better for me, than 279 or anything, feels like 'hm people could think about that and understand me a little better', 279 feels like 'oh they'd be expecting someone different'

Anyways open to arguments but I want something better than that I seem whimsical so 9 fix  but yeah it makes the most sense to me at this point, but I could really see any of the three and I'm not sure how much it would mean any direction.


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> It’s amazing how no matter what I say you seem to read something else and I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.
> 
> Who said I thought Tad was asking me to type her ? I literally just specified it was none of my business so I wouldn’t get further into it. I just pointed out the utter unproductive nature of what happens too often here, and how it lies in the other person’s responsibility. This was a prime example, and I did address you both, can’t help it if you’re not the sole center of it all.
> 
> I will say what I want if I want to if it’s relevant to the thread at hand and doesn’t break the rules, I trust Coburn will give me the stick if I get too far, which I obviously haven’t. I have no apologies to make, grow a pair.


You said:


> _Semantics. Asking for clarification in explaining how you relate to each type is an implicit request to be typed._


Thus, assuming that because Tad asked a question, she was asking for you to type her. If you think something's unproductive, rather than simply sit back and criticise it, maybe try to contribute something which makes it worthwhile to you.
You said:


> _I saw your post as a an opportunity to address the subject as a whole._


Again trying to make a point rather than just have a discussion with people.
There's a difference between breaking the rules and being rude. You were the latter. No apologies are necessary, as I don't believe you would understand why you were giving one. I'm leaving it at that.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@owlet

Yes, she was mostly asking YOU to type her, but doing it here also implies a context of people having a window to chime in, this is in line with what you quoted of me. This isn’t about me but after a while I see it moves at a snail pace, and the person is still stuck at bullshit like “do you like helping people?”, “are you assertive”, “are you goal driven”. That shit would be avoided for quite a few people who come here if they took the time to read the informative bits that are stickied all over the forum. Asking questions is good, but this is the mistype revelation thread, not the “introduce me to Enneagram senpai” one. One would expect someone to have at least read more than the basic descriptions and to be able to say “I’m positive I relate to X, Y and Z, but some things are unclear” when the person comes here.

I’m thinking if being “rude” and tactless incites people to go more in depth in the process rather than play with their toys over and over, then it’s a good thing. Confrontation does drive progress and as such it is sometimes necessary to overlook people’s sensitivities to help them. Not that I expect an obvious Delta to agree with that.


----------



## Immolate

ElectricSlime said:


> Not that I expect an obvious Delta to agree with that.





> Not that I expect an obvious Fi ego to agree with that.


I read your post before the edit. Do you have any reservations about Fi ego? Did you just want to make a bigger point about quadra values?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Let's try to be kind to each other's PoLRs.


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> I mean if I'm a 2 I have to have a line to 8  and I think pushing people aggressively for a reaction can be 8ish, especially looking down from 2?
> and yeah, I know that about the drinking to forget thing (didn't mean drinking necessarily btw) but that's the most obvious example of escaping emotions, it's a confusing thing to do to me, emotions are fun


The line to 8 is often more the 2 becoming resentful of feeling that reliance on others and trying to exert their own independence, like 'I don't need you' etc.
Ah okay, thanks for clarifying!



> As for my gut fix, idk, I've written about it before and I think it's fairly negligible, I know it's hard to see 8 fix for me (at least online? I have the feeling I come across more 8ish in person, when I showed my best friend some things about it she was convinced I was an 8 core (but she didn't know that much about the types) but it feels more right in my tritype, I really don't relate to 9, don't think apathy or keeping the peace or any of that 9 stuff is a significant problem for me, I relate a bit to 1 or I used to but I think it's more aspirational, but I feel like I can be controlling and aggressive and sort-of vengeful/lustful, tend to see myself as physically invulnerable and in the past I had a lot of contempt for weakness, but I went soft and also got a bit nicer  I had to train myself out of more of a warrior chieftain mindset  and that's just a bunch of buzzwords I realize that could be equally 6 or something, I'm not really sure and I think I undoubtedly have _some_ 8 influence, but it could just be the line. But I relate to 8 a tad more of the three in terms of internal things.
> 
> Typed as 9 fix for a while because i saw a thing that was like '8-fixers unapologetically take up space, 9-fixers apologetically take up space' and I tend to apologize a lot for taking up the same air as people, not the sort of person to walk into a room and just feel like 'oh I could put my stuff wherever I like in it', I've had to teach myself how to not get ignored by bartenders and office administrators and such
> 
> But I also feel like I am 'outwardly expanding aggressive', that's a really good description of how my anger is, I also fancy myself quite leonine  well, I'm a Leo and I don't believe in astrology but I always thought that was a good sign/animal for me
> 
> And the thing that maybe tipped it for me, I have no clue what 9s are talking about when they talk about their experiences and tbh it's a chore to read and doens't seem to mean anything, 1s eh, not as bad but not actively relatable, things 8s say tend to be _more_ relatable though obviously not 100%, of course that's assuming people are typed correctly but on the whole...
> 
> and 278 tritype 'clicks' better for me, than 279 or anything, feels like 'hm people could think about that and understand me a little better', 279 feels like 'oh they'd be expecting someone different'
> 
> Anyways open to arguments but I want something better than that I seem whimsical so 9 fix  but yeah it makes the most sense to me at this point, but I could really see any of the three and I'm not sure how much it would mean any direction.


That's fair, thanks for explaining.



ElectricSlime said:


> @*owlet*
> 
> Yes, she was mostly asking YOU to type her, but doing it here also implies a context of people having a window to chime in, this is in line with what you quoted of me. This isn’t about me but after a while I see it moves at a snail pace, and the person is still stuck at bullshit like “do you like helping people?”, “are you assertive”, “are you goal driven”. That shit would be avoided for quite a few people who come here if they took the time to read the informative bits that are stickied all over the forum. Asking questions is good, but this is the mistype revelation thread, not the “introduce me to Enneagram senpai” one. One would expect someone to have at least read more than the basic descriptions and to be able to say “I’m positive I relate to X, Y and Z, but some things are unclear” when the person comes here.
> 
> I’m thinking if being “rude” and tactless incites people to go more in depth in the process rather than play with their toys over and over, then it’s a good thing. Confrontation does drive progress and as such it is sometimes necessary to overlook people’s sensitivities to help them. Not that I expect an obvious Delta to agree with that.


I understand the feeling of 'please do research first', but it's completely unnecessary to come in and tear someone apart to make an example of them to everyone else. It's like having an itch and tearing the skin off to combat it: overkill. I do agree with your intention, but the execution was awful. Like I said, it would have been better to make a separate post or thread rather than 'making an example' of someone who came in and asked an innocent question. It looked like a massive overreaction.

Why do you say Delta, by the way? I'm currently typing as Gamma, so unusual one to choose.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

mistakenforstranger said:


> What made you not see sx/sp for yourself, though, if you don't mind my asking?


Everything about the Sx/So fits me a lot better than Sx/Sp. In fact, I am quite aware now of what being SP last has done to me haha. We seem to think nothing will harm us. 



> I don't think sx/so really discards Social, like you say here. That feels more Social-last.


Well, not _completely _discard. I thought I put that in my response - but _almost_. This forum, for example, fulfills my Social for me, even though it primarily engages my SX. I do have "friends" (not in any deep sense of the word) but I _barely _keep in touch with them - maybe once every few months. Then I might have classmates I might intermingle with for group projects, etc. I am aware of all this, but I am really not putting that much effort or attention into this. 




> I don't know how it works myself, or if this is even right, but it seems like they put their Sx into the Social environment, and are very aware of the effect they have on it.


Yeah, I am definitely hypersensitive to how my SX is coming through to others in the environment around me. I also have some social anxiety, and not just around SX, though SX tends to be the thing I get most anxious about. 



> I feel like Sx/so wants to make waves. They want to stimulate the Social environment, which sounds slightly Fe, but it's less focused on the emotional energy/atmosphere and more on energizing itself (i.e. stimulation).


If you mean _literally _here, then I would disagree. That's extroversion. 



> I also think some of what you say above to Coburn shows you have an awareness of sp, by mentioning how you know where to draw the boundary, which I find sx/so don't really, and advising to focus on strength and resourcefulness, which again seems sp. Just some thoughts, and curious what you think.


Well, I am not completely SP blind, or else I might be dead right now :tongue:
(just a joke)

I may come back later and talk about the SP blindspot.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Immolate said:


> I read your post before the edit. Do you have any reservations about Fi ego? Did you just want to make a bigger point about quadra values?


Well I realized what I said would hardly apply to a ESI, and that I was mostly thinking of Fi Si :scratch:


----------



## Immolate

ElectricSlime said:


> Well I realized what I said would hardly apply to a ESI, and that I was mostly thinking of Fi Si :scratch:


Yeah, I can see how it applies to ESI with regards to Se (confrontation, upsetting the balance in pursuit of a goal, etc). I was asking more about owl and if she left you with the impression of Delta ethical type, because SLI continues to come up for her.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

ElectricSlime said:


> Hey! I take offense to that!
> 
> I posed as SLE-like from like 10 years old to 15 and people bought that shit like hot cakes, so it can't be that bad  I don't think I have much problem asserting myself in general (except at my job where everything I do is practically reported to my dad and I keep getting bothered either because I'm too reluctant to ask things out of people or too forward in doing it, so I'm either reprimanded for being shy or for overstepping my place *breaks a pencil*). Likewise I'm pretty good at publicly exposing a teacher for power tripping with logic and through direct pressure to cover my ass, having him become more tame for the rest of the term. I probably couldn't do it with my E8 history teacher though, he's like the latino version of Mads Mikkelsen. Yeah he'd wreck me on the spot I think.
> 
> And I do tend towards inertia, although I've occasionally showed striking willpower in basketball games before...
> 
> My Se is a mystery ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> Edit: Things would be so fucking flawless if there was some kind of Beta ENTP :sad:



Yeah, sorry if it was insensitive, not in the best place psychologically right now. 

I couldn't tell if the Se was "real" or not so maybe you aren't so bad at it.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Rose for a Heart said:


> Yeah, sorry if it was insensitive, not in the best place psychologically right now.
> 
> I couldn't tell if the Se was "real" or not so maybe you aren't so bad at it.


That was tongue-in-cheek don't worry, I'm not actually offended, more like pouting


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> The last bit sounds more ESE to me.


Problem with that idea is I just can't see myself as a Ne-user. This about sums it up for me:



> "EIEs can generate random ideas or come up with lots of crazy alternatives for fun, but they prefer to focus on understanding the development of a particular situation and not be distracted with possibilities that are outside that situation. *Too much idea generation and focus on all the possibilities open to them actually disorients them*, as they are already plenty scattered enough."


I literally get a headache if something gives me multiple trains of thought at once. I actually had to delete my first response I was writing to this because I started thinking of multiple things I could bring up and it was bothering me. But anyway -



> EIEs generally refuse to conform to standards of what is acceptable and nice to say. Instead, they try to express themselves spontaneously — sometimes harshly, sometimes sweetly or kindly — not because that is what other people expect of them, but because that is what they actually feel at the moment.


Yes, this one part of the EIE description doesn't quite fit. I've read over it before and saw this part in particular and thought so before.



> ESEs commonly have an all-inclusive attitude towards others that bears little room for ethically judgmental attitudes, or individually directed sentiments towards others. At times, they may be drawn into personal criticism; but more commonly they avoid ethical confrontations towards others and may seek to maintain a mood of harmony and happiness. They may become bored if the atmosphere around them becomes overly subdued, with frank discussions of others' character.


But this doesn't seem to fit in places either. Especially the last part. Considering I've been part of a friend group before that was very fond of discussing the characters of others and passing ethical judgments (this might sound really petty but just take my word that the people we would discuss would often be very manipulative, cruel, and untrustworthy individuals). We all became friends over a shared interest in terrible people, actually. And when I say terrible people I mean like cult leaders, scammers and con artists, abusers, pedophiles, corrupt politicians, etc… Sorry if this isn't even related, but I guess the information still can be useful even if it's not quite useful in this context. 



> ESEs may often have an appreciation for the rules for interacting socially, and may criticize others who fail to follow accepted ettiquette and standards of politeness. They may see individuals who are more nonconformist and self-assertive, or who fail to follow established rules or environmental social norms, as necessarily mean and unfriendly -- they may operate with this type of collectivistic mindset, and may not be able to easily recognize or appreciate a more individuated and self-deterministic style of ethical values.


This seems a bit better. What bothers me is I'm wondering what exactly "standards of politeness" and "accepted etiquette" are.


----------



## Darkbloom

Always forget about IEI because I don't know what Ni is but have a feeling it's not as dramatic as people make it out to be, and I don't feel Ti HA, but overall think it could work, the description feels less unrelatable than others I think but also I feel like inferior or whatever the fuck it's called Se works and introverted perception dominant works, it's the only thing that feels right without needing strange explanations.
(I don't mean IEI but like the idea of introverted perception/whatever it's called?)

Also I thought my explanations of the kind of images I like could in a way be Ni-ish? (but normal Ni, not description Ni)
As well as the fact that I always feel like I give more explanations than I actually do.

Can anyone see it?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Always forget about IEI because I don't know what Ni is but have a feeling it's not as dramatic as people make it out to be, and I don't feel Ti HA, but overall think it could work, the description feels less unrelatable than others I think but also I feel like inferior or whatever the fuck it's called Se works and introverted perception dominant works, it's the only thing that feels right without needing strange explanations.
> (I don't mean IEI but like the idea of introverted perception/whatever it's called?)
> 
> Also I thought my explanations of the kind of images I like could in a way be Ni-ish? (but normal Ni, not description Ni)
> As well as the fact that I always feel like I give more explanations than I actually do.
> 
> Can anyone see it?


I don’t know if I can _see_ it but I wouldn’t find it weird at least.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> I don’t know if I can _see_ it but I wouldn’t find it weird at least.


Thanks, think that's more or less what I mean by see
Is there anything you can _see_ see? :fox:



> Edit: Things would be so fucking flawless if there was some kind of Beta ENTP :sad:


Maybe sx 638 ENTP? 
(but not entirely sure of your mbti/socionics, ENTP doesn't seem wrong to me I think and some people are more stereotypically their quadra than others)



nep2une said:


> I literally get a headache if something gives me multiple trains of thought at once. I actually had to delete my first response I was writing to this because I started thinking of multiple things I could bring up and it was bothering me. But anyway -


Would not phrase it like this but same in a way, I often feel like I can either give a horrible half-reply or I can bring up every single thing I ever thought but then I feel the need to connect those things and it's just :frustrating: , makes me want to give up.
But I think I don't mind having multiple trains of thought, don't think anything can be complete without them, but I don't always know what to do with them?
Or like can feel like I'm not explaining something well unless I say everything that's related to what I'm trying to say, but I'll often add some kind of disclaimer like 'This is what's currently on my mind' and try to give a transcript of my current thoughts even though I know there's more.



> But this doesn't seem to fit in places either. Especially the last part. Considering I've been part of a friend group before that was very fond of discussing the characters of others and passing ethical judgments (this might sound really petty but just take my word that the people we would discuss would often be very manipulative, cruel, and untrustworthy individuals). We all became friends over a shared interest in terrible people, actually. And when I say terrible people I mean like cult leaders, scammers and con artists, abusers, pedophiles, corrupt politicians, etc… Sorry if this isn't even related, but I guess the information still can be useful even if it's not quite useful in this context.


This sounds serious-ish and Fi-ish to me but might be just because I still see myself as Fe and I can't even imagine this 
Think it's So-ish and 6-ish?
Don't think I ever discuss things like that in depth, but for example I watch some youtubers and there are these gossip forums and I sometimes lurk because it's just interesting to me to read about how people think someone is a liar or whatever even if I don't agree, but it's like...I don't know, people's characters are interesting to me and other people's opinions are interesting to me but I'm not that invested in it no matter how I feel about the person and I don't feel the need to participate, don't think I'd connect over that kind of thing, even if I don't like the person I just don't feel like focusing on those things or like I'll mention how I don't like someone but then people sometimes make up some reason why that person is terrible and it's not the reason I care about and it can annoy me.

Don't like the idea of connecting over opinions in general, or like even hobbies, I mean it definitely happens (to everyone) but wouldn't like to be tied to anyone by our love or hate for X thing or some opinion unless it's just a cute secondary thing, (edit: or in some kind of special way under special circumstances, Ne going wild here) if that makes sense, those things can't have that much power.


----------



## Doccium

When I discovered MBTI about five years ago I used to get INTJ all the time so I thought I was. However, the description did not fit me; after reevaluting the answers I used to give I came to the conclusion that I did not really answer truthfully; rather, I tried to give the answers with the most satisfying results. Then I forgot about it for about half a year of "_meaningful events_" taking place until I took the test again, now stating that I might be an INFJ. Then I abandonded this result after some time because I thought it did not fit me either - just _better_ than INTJ.


----------



## Nicholasjh1

Ok, how do I get this started? I think my Enneagram is pretty correct, but It's possible the MBTI is incorrect. I usually test INFP. with the I and the F pretty close to center.


----------



## Cacaia

I finally broke down and paid for the actual Myers Briggs test. I was quite surprised. It says I have a slight preference to N and a heavy preference for J. I made sure I took the test at night, when I am the most tired, so I wouldn't think too much about the answers.
I always thought I was an ENFJ with ENFP tendencies. Turns out, I'm an ENFJ with ESFJ tendencies ;-)


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> I literally get a headache if something gives me multiple trains of thought at once. I actually had to delete my first response I was writing to this because I started thinking of multiple things I could bring up and it was bothering me.


You know, leaving socionics aside for a moment, ENTP is very probably the best Jungian fit for me. So MBTI Ne dom. But I've never understood nor related to those complaints here. My conversations are scattered and dynamic, sure, but I never feel like I'm bringing up a thousand possibilities and that people are overwhelmed by them. It only ever happened a few times with ISTXs and one INTJ, who were seemingly unable to follow the rhythm. Never had that problem with INFJs or ESTPs, or any others really.
It tends to go like this ---> Discussion of a subject -----> Is related to another topic that I feel could offer some conversation juice for 5 minutes and keep things smooth ------> Change of topic spontaneously so I don't forget it 2 seconds later, while keeping in mind what wasn't discussed previously so we go back once the current one is squeezed dry ----------> Go back to the topic as planned -----> Another related topic shows up and I repeat the process. That to me is how I use Ne, but it's actually not that hard to follow if you're not too slow on your feet. The whole "Green-Grass-Running-Race-Horse-Knight-Sword-Jedi-Space-SPACE ELEVATOR-SPACE COFFEE!!" kind of Ne shit described here isn't something that tends to happen in my daily life nor really what I care about.



> But this doesn't seem to fit in places either. Especially the last part. Considering I've been part of a friend group before that was very fond of discussing the characters of others and passing ethical judgments (this might sound really petty but just take my word that the people we would discuss would often be very manipulative, cruel, and untrustworthy individuals). We all became friends over a shared interest in terrible people, actually. And when I say terrible people I mean like cult leaders, scammers and con artists, abusers, pedophiles, corrupt politicians, etc… Sorry if this isn't even related, but I guess the information still can be useful even if it's not quite useful in this context.


I don't blame you for misunderstanding since the profile's phrasing was poor, but what it said there was in line for both Alpha and Beta quadras. It referred to the blocking of Fi in social settings, where more personal discussions are to be avoided as much as possible because it makes the mood more awkward, allows less people to participate and because it infringes on their more libertine sense of humor (Fi quadras prefer more genuine, serious and personal topics, even in groups, since they disdain the Fe camaraderie method of bonding). Fe types dislike disclosing their more Fi feelings in public settings since having to sidestep around them to avoid offending others seem like an obstacle to amplifying the emotional atmosphere and they don't want to feel that way nor do they want it for others, so it's mostly reserved to more intimate interactions. Doesn't mean they necessarily run over Fi and offend everyone, but it's an avoided area.



> This seems a bit better. What bothers me is I'm wondering what exactly "standards of politeness" and "accepted etiquette" are.


 "I always feel responsible. I don't feel like I can just say what I want and screw what anyone else thinks or the consequences. I hold myself to standards. And I can't say it pains me to do this. I like doing it."

It's what you described there.


----------



## Dangerose

(Exhausted but half a sentence I managed to read in the above reminded me, I can get so offended when people have poor opinions of other people)

The other week I was reading some article about whatever and then in the comments they were all talking about how they don't like this one actor and their reasons and pointing out the kind of jokes he makes in a way that made them seem dumb even though...like ugh I can see he makes those jokes but it's always funny to me  and I'm not heavily invested in this actor, not particularly attracted to him, don't relate to him or anything, but it really bothered/s me that there are masses of people out there being annoyed by him, think it's a combination of a. hate that people are out there thinking of things in that way, not that there aren't plenty of celebrities I have equally bad opinions of that other people love, but...idk it's still sad to me b. I guess I feel protective of my own perception in a way

and I notice it a lot, that instance stood up because I really felt as sad as if I were reading about myself, I mean probably not but :/

don't really have type thing to relate it to but I always wonder if it's Fe-ish, probably not, I frankly don't understand what a single one of the functions actually are


----------



## Darkbloom

Fe-ish I think, definitely prefer emotionally charged and aggressive reactions and reasoning I think, hard to explain what I mean but it's something I've been noticing lately, hate rational and like 1-ish stuff 
Like if someone says "I hate her and I wish she'd stab herself in the eyeball and die" about someone I like it's like...idk I disagree and I hope it doesn't happen lol but it's ok somehow, but if someone says something bad-ish I technically agree with but they phrase it in form of Fi 1-ish competency-ish criticism or something I hate it, even if they are talking about someone I don't like and saying somewhat accurate things I still can't agree and will be annoyed if the focus is wrong and annoying and something.



:sleepytime:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> edit: feel like there's a better way to phrase it


It sounds illogical but I get you. I mean I am a judgemental prick for sure (working on that) and I have been known to attack people’s character when pissed but it was always more along the lines “you’re a shallow and irritating fucktard, stop playing the victim” or “X is untrustworthy, don’t trust him” than a self-righteous holier than thou condemnation. 

It may sound dumb because it seems like the same thing but it’s very much about the delivery I think as well... My dual is not a 1-like type, that’s for sure.

Edit: I think Fi types (more especially Fi egos) in those instances can come across as cultivating a moral highground, which seems arrogant and condescending for subjectivist Ti-Fe types. Just a guess.


----------



## Dangerose

well now i'm very curious about what vixey said
@Vixey thanks, sorry I didn't thank sooner! 

hotel wifi is awful


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> well now i'm very curious about what vixey said


Posted it again! each:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Thanks, think that's more or less what I mean by see
> Is there anything you can _see_ see? :fox:


No fairy profile picture and no oneiric sounding name/10. /jk

Well, does Se turn you on ? That could be telling.

I dunno, I have this tendency to perceive IEIs as the most distinctively "abstract" type of the bunch, excessively so. Ni lead and Te PoLR lends itself to a peculiar ivory tower of an existence. I'd say it's the type most prone to develop interest in the occult and the magical, like astrology (though not all IEIs do quite obviously). Also likely to scorn at the notion of interpreting the world through a pragmatic and more objective framework (even in an abstract manner, like Descartes' notion of perceiving reality through the mathematical laws and colors that oversee it), espousing instead a romantic lens of subjectivism. Like, that post I made the other day that you didn't really understand is typically the kind of shit that I'd expect an IEI to eat up. Aaaaaaand I'm starting to over intellectualize this, dammit. I'm mostly thinking of Ni subtype here who seems more INTX, the Fe subtype should be a bit different. Not as "intellectual" but still with a sage-like vibe, but more into performing arts, interpersonal interaction and more obviously outgoing. Probably more socially successful too. I don't think it makes them less heady so much as less caught up inside themselves and their inner world. Ni subs are darker, but less dramatic I would say. Like, I consider myself abstract enough, but if I were an IEI and I had to choose I'd fit Fe sub better.

I don't know that much from you, though you do sound like a Merry type kindred to me  Why are you considering IEI ?



> Maybe sx 638 ENTP?
> (but not entirely sure of your mbti/socionics, ENTP doesn't seem wrong to me I think and some people are more stereotypically their quadra than others)


It's a pretty beta tritype tbh, and I do take note of the "you're 3 fixed" subliminal message you sneaked in there haha.

I'd associate beta with 3, 4 and 6 (with a bit of 8), alpha sounds 7ish and 9ish. This is all pretty annoying.


----------



## Immolate

ElectricSlime said:


> I dunno, I have this tendency to perceive IEIs as the most distinctively "abstract" type of the bunch, excessively so. Ni lead and Te PoLR lends itself to a peculiar ivory tower of an existence. *I'd say it's the type most prone to develop interest in the occult and the magical*, like astrology (though not all IEIs do quite obviously). Also likely to scorn at the notion of interpreting the world through a pragmatic and more objective framework (even in an abstract manner, like Descartes' notion of perceiving reality through the mathematical laws and colors that oversee it), espousing instead a romantic lens of subjectivism. Like, that post I made the other day that you didn't really understand is typically the kind of shit that I'd expect an IEI to eat up. Aaaaaaand I'm starting to over intellectualize this, dammit. I'm mostly thinking of Ni subtype here who seems more INTX, the Fe subtype should be a bit different. Not as "intellectual" but still with a sage-like vibe, but more into performing arts, interpersonal interaction and more obviously outgoing. Probably more socially successful too. I don't think it makes them less heady so much as less caught up inside themselves and their inner world. Ni subs are darker, but less dramatic I would say. Like, I consider myself abstract enough, but if I were an IEI and I had to choose I'd fit Fe sub better.


 @Greyhart :witch:


But, anyhow, I think this is a fair description of IEI and very much reminds me of someone who used to be more active. I hesitate to tag them, though, because this thread is kind of a mess.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Rose for a Heart said:


> Well, not _completely _discard. I thought I put that in my response - but _almost_. This forum, for example, fulfills my Social for me, even though it primarily engages my SX. I do have "friends" (not in any deep sense of the word) but I _barely _keep in touch with them - maybe once every few months. Then I might have classmates I might intermingle with for group projects, etc. I am aware of all this, but I am really not putting that much effort or attention into this.


You said before:



Rose for a Heart said:


> I think with Sx/So, you use the Social world only to find what you need to get the SX needs met, and then *the SO is pushed to the background or even pretty much discarded.* I am not shrouded in my intensity - it catches attention whether I like it or not.


To me, I don't see that happening in sx/so that it would be "discarded", so it seems more social-last, and what you say about how Social acts for you with group projects/classmates above doesn't feel very Social to me, but it would depend on how you behave within the group. It sounds all very basic, like we can't completely ignore people/groups, but maybe a Social-last would want to, like you say you're "really not putting that much effort or attention into this." That sounds Social last. I know when you were typing as Social-dom before this, and I thought you sounded more Social last because you were saying how you didn't think about those Social things all that much, or didn't care about them. 



> If you mean _literally _here, then I would disagree. That's extroversion. .


No, I don't mean extroversion, and you can take this all with a grain of salt, as I'm just speculating here, but I think there's a fiery aspect to sx/so that you don't seem to have, like they aren't afraid of lighting themselves on fire (metaphorically, of course) in the Social space, and want others to be attracted to their flame, possibly even burning people in the process, which doesn't necessarily have to be themselves who are "on fire", but even putting forth an idea that shakes things up. Sp-last doesn't want to stagnate. To me, sx/so have this reaching for transcendence quality to it, pushing things to their ultimate limit, like Nietzsche's concept of Ubermensch, or Icarus flying higher and higher towards the Sun, despite his father's warning, but not realizing his wings are melting. Sp-last anyone lol? If you're not familiar with the Icarus myth, you can see it starting at 2:50:






I think Icarus is a good representation of sx/so mindset at least, whether that's shown in one's actions or not. By contrast, Daedalus is more sp, or at least not sp-last, by staying a moderate course, like how it's described in video, not too high, not too low, makes me think of Goldilocks, and she's totally sp, or also Niles from Fraiser (another sp-dom). Too hot, too cold, but juuuust right. I feel like @Vixey is kind of like that lol. I prefer the idea of Icarus more than the idea of one being a "peacock" lol. Peacocks are more 3-ish, but don't think sx has to be "showy" ("Showy" =/= "Fiery") like that necessarily, or find peacocks that sx actually.

I thought of some correlations to animals with instincts:

Sp/so - Squirrel, Beaver, Deer
Sp/sx - Bear, Sloth, "Lone wolf" (Wolves, though, are very Social)
So/sp - Elephant, Penguin, Geese
So/sx - Dog, Dolphin, Chimpanzee
Sx/sp - Tiger, Gorilla, Swan
Sx/so - Lion, Bull, Wolves ("Hungry Like the Wolf"), and maybe Foxes?

What do y'all think (or not) lol?

I actually feel like @ElectricSlime spoke to sx/so mindset earlier here, and it also feels more contra-flow too:



> I’m thinking if being “rude” and tactless incites people to go more in depth in the process rather than play with their toys over and over, then it’s a good thing. *Confrontation does drive progress* *and as such it is sometimes necessary to overlook people’s sensitivities to help them.* Not that I expect an obvious Delta to agree with that.


Whereas, I thought this was more syn-flow, but it's also Delta too, unless you meant it with a hint of irony too:



Rose for a Heart said:


> Let's try to be kind to each other's PoLRs.


Again, not sure if I buy the whole contra/synflow thing, but I could see it here. 

Also made me think of Prometheus myth, and this feels so contraflow, going against Zeus and the gods. Remember the Prometheus myth always being the most interesting one to me that we learned in school when I was a kid. Feel like it explains me in a way lol, which also makes me think I'm more contra-flow too, and maybe why so/sp would be better. 






Anyways, I'm probably talking out of my ass with all this...:laughing:


----------



## Rose for a Heart

mistakenforstranger said:


> You said before:
> To me, I don't see that happening in sx/so that it would be "discarded", so it seems more social-last, and what you say about how Social acts for you with group projects/classmates above doesn't feel very Social to me, but it would depend on how you behave within the group. It sounds all very basic, like we can't completely ignore people/groups, but maybe a Social-last would want to, like you say you're "really not putting that much effort or attention into this." That sounds Social last.


I did clarify that with "not completely discard." The social instinct is there constantly in the background, I cannot completely disengage from it. I am still in touch with the _needs _of this instinct but it's more...I guess not that important. The thing with sexual instinct though, is that regardless of the second stacking, it's going to have all that energy going into its obsessions, perhaps to the detriment of any other needs, unless you are really balanced. 

I will say though that I have never not had this background "group" that I was connected with, even if I didn't keep that much in touch with them. It's still kind of...there. Mentally I feel that, I am never completely cut off from it. By cut off I don't mean about communication, but that it's on my mind as a regular presence, but very much in the background. 

And perhaps I was trying a little too hard to distance myself from the social instinct haha...when I realized I was SX first. I wanted drive in I am SX and not SO. 



> No, I don't mean extroversion, and you can take this all with a grain of salt, as I'm just speculating here, but I think there's a fiery aspect to sx/so that you don't seem to have, like they aren't afraid of lighting themselves on fire (metaphorically, of course) in the Social space, and want others to be attracted to their flame, possibly even burning people in the process, which doesn't necessarily have to be themselves who are "on fire", but even putting forth an idea that shakes things up.


I still feel like you may be confusing that with extroversion. Could you elaborate?

Because, to be honest, I relate to everything you said in the above quote, and I display that quality on here all too frequently. Me spilling my guts out to the complete and utter detriment of my SP - because my neurotic SX is looking for that connection, that bond, that complete oneness. While with SP seconds, if they have been hurt like I have been when it comes to their instinct, they retreat. They withdraw. They are too terrified of the rejections to put themselves in that position because they are afraid of being burned. They still desire it, but their SP keeps their psychological safety and integrity in check. That has not been the case with me at all, to the point my psyche tore apart and out poured all this traumatic unconscious hurt and pain I had unwittingly inflicted on myself. I wasn't trying to be "self-destructive"; it was more like...I didn't realize I was being hurt. That is setting myself "on fire." I do feel like my presence, on here, and otherwise, has that archetypal Sx/So quality of pushing the boundaries, of "shaking things up" with the Social world as the recipient and the stage - and that's exactly what I have done on here as well, now that I realize. My focus of course is not on the Social primarily, it's on the Sexual. This sort of...psychological baring I do on here, you will not see from Sx/Sp typically. And they come across as quite private to me, socially. Closed off. Until you interact with them one on one. There's this sense in Social lasts of being...enveloped in either themselves or the intimate with which they choose to interact with. I also notice they don't smile as much - just a body language thing. There's that sunniness that is absent. I am the opposite. 



> I thought of some correlations to animals with instincts:
> 
> Sp/so - Squirrel, Beaver, Deer
> Sp/sx - Bear, Sloth, "Lone wolf" (Wolves, though, are very Social)
> So/sp - Elephant, Penguin, Geese
> So/sx - Dog, Dolphin, Chimpanzee
> Sx/sp - Tiger, Gorilla, Swan
> Sx/so - Lion, Bull, Wolves ("Hungry Like the Wolf"), and maybe Foxes?


Ah, that's interesting, but I feel like sp/sx is missing that "molten core" SX quality they have. And Sx/So is again shown in this sort of Se-ish way which I HIGHLY disagree with. Swan is So and Sx either one could be primary depending on how you look at it.

I have been thinking...is there a celebrity who is like this. I am thinking of Lili Reinhart. She is clearly an Sx/So and possibly an introvert. I get INFP from her. I think she has all those qualities you describe, except it's not quite as "loud" with extroverted energy. 

As for the con and syn flow stuff, I am not sure I agree with the way you see them, but chose not to comment much on that because it just looks like different perceptions. 

Oh, I saw the confrontation thing as @*ElectricSlime* trying to impersonate Se 

As for what I said, I don't know, it doesn't sound particularly any specific type to me.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Found this, thought it was pretty good:


> So/Sx
> Summary
> 
> "To provide mental and emotional stimulation for others."
> Appearance: friendly, enthusiastic, eager, erratic.
> Role: companion, counselor, nurturer, teacher, benevolent leader.
> This type has an incredible ability to bond with people one-on-one, typically bringing out the best in others. They enhance their role and status in society by befriending individuals in the group, often by sharing new, stimulating experiences together. They may customize their behavior to people they are interested in to better connect. In group settings, this tendency may make them uncertain of how to behave, although they are usually promoting the group's harmony under the table.
> 
> They may have difficulty maintaining their bonds when apart, making them appear flighty at times. Some may conform to social norms in order to connect with more people, while others test the boundaries of traditional values to "keep it real". They are usually attuned to new cultural trends.
> 
> 
> Description
> 
> Primary Instinct: Social
> 
> The Instinct to belong to a larger whole. Those with the Social Primary Instinct seek to adapt themselves to meet the needs of their groups or communities. They are very generous with their time and often sacrifice their own needs to advance other individual’s priorities. They wish to increase their inclusion and status within a group, for they see their social status as a marker of their level of contribution. They enjoy being involved in other people's lives. They tend to be the friendliest of the different types, with many social connections in various cliques.
> 
> Quick to see people's positions and relationships, they can navigate the social circle to obtain protection and influence. They are highly aware of what other people’s needs are and how their actions affect others. They can evaluate people’s behaviors and emotions with accuracy, enabling them to promote group members or ideas that they feel deserve recognition. Often they act as the glue that holds together individuals.
> 
> 
> Secondary Instinct: Sexual
> 
> The Sexual Instinct is channeled to serve the needs of the Social Instinct. The result is that this type enhances their role and status in society by befriending individuals, often by sharing new, stimulating experiences together. They have an incredible ability to bond with people one-on-one, typically bringing out the best in others. They may customize their behavior to people they are interested in to better connect. In group settings, this tendency may make them uncertain of how to behave, although they are usually promoting the group's harmony under the table.
> 
> They may have difficulty maintaining their bonds when apart, making them appear flighty at times. Some may conform to social norms in order to connect with more people, while others test the boundaries of traditional values to "keep it real". They are usually attuned to new cultural trends.
> 
> 
> Potential Weaknesses
> 
> The Primary Instinct can be both a strength and a weakness. When people with the Social Primary Instinct become overly preoccupied with its fulfillment, they may become exceptionally sensitive to social rejection. As a result, they may be overwhelmed by feelings of shame or worthlessness, as they rely too heavily on the opinions of others. In addition, they may lose their identities in the quest for social acceptance.
> 
> Social-Sexuals have the Secure Instinct as their least dominant Instinct. As a result, they may appear erratic and ungrounded, with a tendency to ignore practical matters such as financial security, maintaining an orderly life, and health. They may also be bored in a normal, stable living. In their youth, they may find daily tasks such as eating or bathing to be a chore.
> 
> The dominant Instinct is often used to compensate for the least dominant Instinct. For instance, a Social-Sexual may find some stability and grounding by reflecting on their close relationships.
> 
> 
> Relationships
> 
> In relationships, they wish to find someone who “deserves” to have their support and affection. Such a person ultimately helps them increase their belonging and contribution to the larger whole. Put into other words, they are attracted to those who either have a great contribution to society, or have the potential.
> 
> These types of partners allow Social-Sexuals to increase their contribution to the group in several ways – by helping the partner or the partner’s ideas better integrate into the group, by nurturing the partner, or by influencing the group from a more visible position once that person has achieved status. They are known to sometimes be attracted to those who are eccentric or reserved, as they wish to help include them. They care greatly about whether or not the potential partner is a “good” person.
> 
> They value fun and excitement in their relationships. Their partner’s happiness is one of their primary gauges of the relationship’s health. They see the couple as a part of the community, and will further its integration and contribution. Relationships are a key part of their lives, and they with go to great lengths to improve their relationships with their partners. Only when they feel that their ocial belonging is seriously jeopardized with they leave. They tend to be forgiving if they feel that the partner is still a “good” person. Worthlessness is their fear, and shame is their biggest insult.
> 
> 
> Compatibility
> 
> A couple with similar Instincts is most compatible because it allows the two to walk in the same direction. This is the opposite from Personality, in which “complements” attract. Walking in the same direction allows a couple to reach mutually agreeable decisions, while having complementary Personalities allows the couple to solve problems using different perspectives. The latter also adds a sense of freshness to the relationship while preventing overlapping identities.
> 
> Their ideal partners are the Social-Sexuals, Social-Secures, and Sexual-Socials.
> 
> Career
> 
> Social-Sexuals feel most fulfilled when working on projects that are in line with the goals of their Primary Instinct. Namely, they wish to fully engage themselves in projects that help other people and society as a whole. With a Sexual Secondary Instinct, they utilize their creativity and desire for stimulating experiences to better achieve the aims of their Primary Instinct. Thus, they prefer careers that allow them to use their creativity to help others.
> 
> 
> Examples of careers that they may enjoy include:
> 
> Counselor
> Event Coordinator
> Marketer
> Optometrist
> Politician
> Public Relations Manager
> Social Activist
> Social Scientist
> Teacher
> Writer


And this:



> Summary
> 
> Sx/Sp
> 
> "To understand the mind and soul, and to find the perfect union."
> Appearance: brooding, intense, immersed, fantastical.
> Role: mystic, wanderer, soul mate, lover, seducer.
> This type is on an eternal search for the missing piece. They channel their sexual energy inwards to explore the imaginations that come from their subconscious. Their ambitions are personal in nature and do not necessarily have a social cause. They often have a naturally seductive, sexual charisma that manifests as a fantastical, erotic playfulness or an untouchable aura to others. They may feel torn between the urge to explore and a secure living.
> 
> In relationships, they may feel conflicted about their intense passion for their partner and their desire to guard themselves from getting hurt. When they find a soul mate, they quietly bond with an exceptional level of intimacy. Once connected, they have difficulty letting go. When anxious or depressed, they may seclude themselves for extended periods, seeking understanding from within. Their sexual tension occasionally manifests as volatile, self-destructive behaviors when stressed.
> 
> Primary Instinct: Sexual
> 
> Those with the Sexual Primary Instinct are devoted to transmitting something meaningful to future generations, whether it is their genes or their ideas. It also means they wish to become "one" with another entity, which they achieve by seeking intense, original experiences that fully engage them. This tendency manifests as their intense desire to form intimate, one-on-one connections with people and as their passionate pursuit of hobbies and interests. Without satisfying these desires, they feel incomplete. Their passion and creativity result from the repression and rechanneling of their sexual drive.
> 
> They live a life of intensity, often taking risks to achieve their ideals. Because they wish to spread their “self” onto other entities, they tend to be good at drawing attention to themselves and their ideas. They have an expanded construct of the self and they are willing to sacrifice themselves for people or ideas that they care most about.
> 
> Secondary Instinct: Secure
> 
> The Secure Instinct is channeled to serve the needs of the Sexual Instinct. The result is that this type is able to deflect sexual energy inwards using the Secure Instinct. This inwards sexual energy allows them to explore the imaginations from their subconscious and uncover deep insights of the Self. The Secure Instinct also acts as a protective shield that is activated whenever the Sexual Instinct expands the Self too much.
> 
> They appear to be on an eternal search for the missing piece. Their ambitions are personal in nature, without a direct social cause. They may have a naturally seductive, sexual charisma that manifests as a fantastical, erotic playfulness or an untouchable aura to others.
> 
> In relationships, they may feel conflicted about their intense passion for their partner and their desire to guard themselves from getting hurt. When anxious or depressed, they may seclude themselves for extended periods, seeking understanding from within. They often feel torn between the urge to explore and a stable living. The tension between the Sexual and Secure Instincts occasionally manifests as volatile, self-destructive behaviors when stressed.
> 
> Potential Weaknesses
> 
> The Primary Instinct can be both a strength and a weakness. When people with the Sexual Primary Instinct become overly preoccupied with its fulfillment, they may be bored with reality and indulge in excessive risk-taking, self-medication, or thrill-seeking. Some may disregard protective boundaries of the self and develop issues with possessiveness or dependency in their relationships.
> 
> Sexual-Secures have the Social Instinct as their least dominant Instinct. As a result, they may have difficulty cultivating multiple social connections. While they have no difficulty bonding with individuals, they may have difficulty navigating social realms to obtain their needs. Unaware of how their actions affect others, they may cause miscommunications and group dysfunction. Some may reject the help and camaraderie of their community, preferring social isolation.
> 
> The dominant Instinct is often used to compensate for the least dominant Instinct. For instance, those who are Sexual-Secure may form exceptionally close relationships with a few select friends who can help them navigate the social realm
> .
> Relationships
> 
> In relationships, they seek closeness, loyalty, and meaningful sex. Mentally and emotionally, they wish to be able to fully open up to their partners, and they are most fulfilled when their partners do the same. Sex to them is far more than a physical act. In fact, those who simply see sex as a vessel for physical pleasure more than likely do not possess the Sexual Primary Instinct.
> 
> They idealize about potential partners, always longing for the perfect union. When they find a soul mate, they quietly bond with an exceptional level of intimacy. Since they rarely engage in social formalities, the partner may be unaware of the level of intimacy that the Secure-Sexual has until much later. Once connected, they have difficulty letting go, even though they may still fantasize about more perfect relationships.
> 
> They are keenly aware of the intimacy between themselves and their partners. They see intimacy, or closeness, as the measure of how healthy the relationship is. They will feel conflicted and frustrated in relationships in which they cannot fully bond, but they will become “one” with their partners in ones that are a good fit. The passion and loyalty they have for former partners does not fade. Instead, it is overshadowed by someone that they can feel can provide more closeness and trust. They enjoy marriage for the security that it provides. Dullness is their biggest fear, and personal rejection is their biggest insult.
> 
> Compatibility
> 
> A couple with similar Instincts is most compatible because it allows the two to walk in the same direction. This is the opposite from Personality, in which “complements” attract. Walking in the same direction allows a couple to reach mutually agreeable decisions, while having complementary Personalities allows the couple to solve problems using different perspectives. The latter also adds a sense of freshness to the relationship while preventing overlapping identities.
> 
> Their ideal partners are the Sexual-Secures, Sexual-Socials, and Secure-Sexuals.
> 
> Career
> 
> Sexual-Secures feel most fulfilled when working on projects that are in line with the goals of their Primary Instinct. Namely, they wish to fully engage themselves in creative, stimulating projects that promote the growth of something new. With a Secure Secondary Instinct, they have a greater awareness of themselves and their physical resources so that they can better achieve the aims of their Primary Instinct. Thus, they prefer careers that allow them to use their self-awareness to engage in an intense, stimulating career.
> 
> Examples of careers that they may enjoy include:
> 
> Artist
> Clergy
> Linguist/Poet
> Musician
> Physicist
> Psychologist
> Scientific Researcher
> Software Developer
> University Academic/Faculty
> Writer


Can't access the official source for the others for some reason :angry:


----------



## Paradigm

mistakenforstranger said:


> Sp/so - Squirrel, Beaver, Deer
> Sp/sx - Bear, Sloth, "Lone wolf" (Wolves, though, are very Social)


I see squirrels as maybe so/sx for some reason. So/sp would be close enough.

I haaate sloths (not that it matters)  Cats, _all cats_ big or small, are almost literally my spirit animal, tho. I didn't realize this until I was hit with the realization I was "obsessed" with them since, like, seven years old.


----------



## ElectricSlime

I actually had my own clique back in elementary school, it's starting from middle school I developed "my wanderer" mode of operations that allowed to move however I wanted without being tied down by a group. There have been times where I started gathering more attention at lunch and a social environment would form around and we'd have a great time, but it would collapse pretty quick due to me not putting the least of effort into maintaining it and keeping it glued. So I don't relate to keeping a "connection to a social group in the background". I do know a bunch of people from several groups and I can tag along sometimes when I'm bored and it's in my interest or something, but I end up shifting back to personal interests and hopefully some obsession of the moment. Don't know what this actually says about me.

I also had this phase where I completely cut myself off from social contact outside school for 1+ year and would obsessively read and do some inner work for myself, which is when I actually stumbled on the intellectual nature I had somewhat repressed for a good part of my life. After that, climbing back to civilization kinda convinced me there doesn't seem to be anything to be missed out on much in the social realm. Maybe were I born in another era.

@mistakenforstranger

I thought we were over this contra flow shit.

And incidentally, can Sx/So's be losers ? As you said the ubermensch is the most Sx/So esque concept I can think of and Nietzsche was obsessed with such ideas all his life, but his life was hardly one akin to those described in Sx/So descriptions.

I found this post by Speed Gavroche to be quite interesting: 


Speed Gavroche said:


> Dunno.
> 
> I think many are, yes. But not always. You are like "Sx/So are great necessarly", it's impossible that every Sx/So's are like that.
> 
> Many Sx/So's are actually also:
> 
> -shy
> -hung up
> -close-minded
> -dogmatic
> -paranoid
> -shizotipal and/or schizoid
> -cowards
> -extremely avoidant and reclusive
> -hateful of people and of the opposite sex
> -repress their impulsions and instincts
> -frugal and prude
> -obsessive-compulsive
> -dependant personality disorder
> -low-key and effaced
> - etc
> 
> The thing is that, if you take Patti Smith, for example, she is impulsive, she is fantastical, she is great, yes, but when she was 14 she was a complete loser, she was totally unatractive, she was insfignificant, a marginal, she was nothing in the high-school hierarchy. But she has an instinctive drive to overcome it.
> 
> Also, Dennis Rodman, Howard Hughes and Catwoman are good examples of that: navigate between avoidance, shyness and self-effaced temperament and addictive alpha male or femme fatale, charismatic and obssessed with sex.
> 
> [youtube=3CrDbBBAbEY]Beyond The Glory - Dennis Rodman (Part1)[/youtube]
> [youtube=ez4rbj1AZGg]The Secret History: Howard Hughes, Bizarre Billionaire (1/5)[/youtube]
> [youtube=u3hl3hSa1lc]Selina tranforms[/youtube]
> 
> You can also see that with David Bowie, Freddy Mercury, Lady Gaga, Dennis Hopper, and tons of others.
> 
> I think the duality between the personality and the instinctual stacking is a bit like a river and a rock. Te acquiered personality (enneatype) is a rock, the instinctual stacking is the river, the water always achieve to pass through the rock, it's just a matter of time, and it sculpt it in forms of emmotional habits and emotional coping stretgy called "subtypes".
> 
> This gallery of pics of Charles Bukowski illustrate that pretty well also: at the end he fits very well with your list of adjectives, but during his youth, not at all: Photographies de Charles Bukowski
> 
> I think that every Sx people are characterized by a need to be at the top of the food chain, and with Sx/So, the result is a strong leaning to be "guru" or ayatollah. Sometime very prude and frugal, but very oriented toward intensity:
> 
> [youtube=0AgW_9bijzE]Imam Khomeini speaking abt the Iran Iraq war[/youtube]
> [youtube=qbF0JQgi7_U]Adolf Hitler speech February 10 ,3of3[/youtube]
> 
> The nature of Sx/So, I think, is a low tolerance for the status quo, a tendency to live life and see the world like a series of intense visons and dream sequence, a drive to provoke, shock, seduce people and manipulate the crowds, to push boundaries, be palatial and be something more than a human. Also, a trouble with self-pres thing, sometimes an abuse and dependance of this, sometimes a deliberate refuse of confort and safety and simply a goblal neglect.


I've been accused of being cult leader ish in the past.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> I see squirrels as maybe so/sx for some reason. So/sp would be close enough.
> 
> I haaate sloths (not that it matters)  Cats, _all cats_ big or small, are almost literally my spirit animal, tho. I didn't realize this until I was hit with the realization I was "obsessed" with them since, like, seven years old.


With good reason, sloths are evil looking motherfuckers.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> And incidentally, can Sx/So's be losers ?


I feel like that's the same as asking "can 6s be outcasts?" Of course they can, it's not like being a type gives you super-resistance to any crappy life situation. And its converse, being a type doesn't mean your life is automatically "successful" or "unique."



ElectricSlime said:


> With good reason, sloths are evil looking motherfuckers.


They don't even look fluffy enough to bother petting 

Actually... Apparently their fur grows algae and is full of bugs. Whoo...


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> I feel like that's the same as asking "can 6s be outcasts?" Of course they can, it's not like being a type gives you super-resistance to any crappy life situation. And its converse, being a type doesn't mean your life is automatically "successful" or "unique."
> 
> 
> They don't even look fluffy enough to bother petting
> 
> Actually... Apparently their fur grows algae and is full of bugs. Whoo...


Well I mean yeah but being low key, insecure and self effaced runs completely counter to their most prominent trait: exhibitionism and dissolution of boundaries. Like, I would rather interpret a loser Sx/So as that annoying dude no one likes and has no particular redeeming quality but still won't shut the fuck up and stop invading people's boundaries.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> Well I mean yeah but being low key, insecure and self effaced runs completely counter to their most prominent trait: exhibitionism and dissolution of boundaries. Like, I would rather *interpret a loser Sx/So as that annoying dude no one likes and has no particular redeeming quality but still won't shut the fuck up and stop invading people's boundaries.*


That's possible, and I wouldn't really begrudge the guess it's even more likely than any other option... But other factors exist that don't limit the possibilities of manifestations. Whether they be personal experiences or just other types of personality than the typical, it's not impossible that a quieter or "less-obvious" SX/SO exists.

As for insecurity... It's easy to assume everyone else feels more secure than you are, and easier still to assume type=security, but in reality it doesn't work like that. I'm not even trying to say the cliche "everyone is insecure," more trying to point out "not everyone shows their insecurity." (Which still feels like a cliche, but there's a few nuances I can't really capture atm because headache.)


----------



## Rose for a Heart

ElectricSlime said:


> I actually had my own clique back in elementary school, it's starting from middle school I developed "my wanderer" mode of operations that allowed to move however I wanted without being tied down by a group. There have been times where I started gathering more attention at lunch and a social environment would form around and we'd have a great time, but it would collapse pretty quick due to me not putting the least of effort into maintaining it and keeping it glued. So I don't relate to keeping a "connection to a social group in the background". I do know a bunch of people from several groups and I can tag along sometimes when I'm bored and it's in my interest or something, but I end up shifting back to personal interests and hopefully some obsession of the moment. Don't know what this actually says about me.


I should have said something more along the lines of "connection to the social instinct," because the presence of this instinct is constant and in the back of my mind. I am pretty "disconnected" from the groups if you mean in communication, though I still feel like I am a _part _of them, if that makes sense. That's what I meant by connection. I don't really engage with them, though. My current obsession has been typology for...a couple of years now. That, and any other SX interests I find is what I expend most of my energy on. 

So most of what you said doesn't discount SO second necessarily.


----------



## ElectricSlime

March break is finally upon me, as such I require narcissistic fuel and a daily dose of overthinking.

Confession: The more I read about Alpha NTs, the more I feel I don’t fit with this whole Big Bang Theory thing of geek Marvel T-shirts and sci fi that they love so much. I’m too tasteful basically (though still outclassed by the Si ego types, obviously).

@Immolate

O, you precious cinnamon roll that has arrived to the same conclusions I have several times and knows her shit, what feasible alternatives should I explore ? You can even throw Fi types in there.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> How come EII over ESI out of interest?
> 
> Do you think Te ego? If so, how come?
> 
> :smilet-digitalpoint


Rose explained it perfectly, don't think I have anything to add, just don't see Se as valued, and probably PoLR.
Te and Ti are insanely hard for me to figure out. You don't strike me as all that Fi, but I was thinking that I may confuse seriousness with being a logical type, as Slime suggested.
So I'd probably say EII then, really can't see ESI.



Coburn said:


> @Nissa Nissa
> 
> I just watched the Tom Condon video on the sensitivity to obligations. It's surprisingly very relatable, and I think well describes that hot /cold aspect. Especially the part about feeling the expectations and then ignoring them/pretending they aren't there/adding distance. I do that a lot.
> 
> I literally had this happen yesterday. A coworker tried to get my attention/sympathy/ear for her problems. And I just ignored it. I could feel her actions and read all the demands behind them-- but I ignored it because they aren't what I want. And I'm not willing to make myself unhappy to make her happy.


Oh good, I was so unhelpful about my sources but they exist 
Anyways I think I've said it before but I can see 5 for you and it might seem better than 8.



Animal said:


> I'm not here to start debates but, for the record, since I'd brought it up here in the past, I settled on 4w3 (as opposed to 5 wing).
> Thanks for inputs over the months.


Oh good, I had a nagging feeling w3 was better but I didn't have a sound explanation why and you had argued very vehemently about it in the past 



ElectricSlime said:


> You know, leaving socionics aside for a moment, ENTP is very probably the best Jungian fit for me. So MBTI Ne dom. But I've never understood nor related to those complaints here. My conversations are scattered and dynamic, sure, but I never feel like I'm bringing up a thousand possibilities and that people are overwhelmed by them. It only ever happened a few times with ISTXs and one INTJ, who were seemingly unable to follow the rhythm. Never had that problem with INFJs or ESTPs, or any others really.
> It tends to go like this ---> Discussion of a subject -----> Is related to another topic that I feel could offer some conversation juice for 5 minutes and keep things smooth ------> Change of topic spontaneously so I don't forget it 2 seconds later, while keeping in mind what wasn't discussed previously so we go back once the current one is squeezed dry ----------> Go back to the topic as planned -----> Another related topic shows up and I repeat the process. That to me is how I use Ne, but it's actually not that hard to follow if you're not too slow on your feet. The whole "Green-Grass-Running-Race-Horse-Knight-Sword-Jedi-Space-SPACE ELEVATOR-SPACE COFFEE!!" kind of Ne shit described here isn't something that tends to happen in my daily life nor really what I care about.


Yeah, your process sounds more similar to how mine is (and I don't think that random word-association thing is really very Ne, I mean it's Ne more than anything but it's mostly just irritating)

I do find that I get frustrated in conversations with I think Si egos mostly in that I often want to talk about all the possibilities and give them a good scouring before making a choice and I can feel like other people are narrowing it down too quickly and I start to get suffocated...
Always find myself going to Si-doms for advice since they seem to know what things are about but then they grow to hate me because I keep trying to re-open the circle for the conversation, or something, have to catch a bus so I'll reply I think to a couple of other things later

__________

used to be obsessed with foxes


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Well, does Se turn you on ? That could be telling.


:blushed:

Would like to spare myself talking about embarrassing real life examples but like even music I listen to often has element of Se or at least there's Se-ish motivation, like either wanting to be taken along with someone else's Se or finding it sexy or just be in that situation, depends...idk hard to explain, hard to give examples since they are mostly not in English and I don't want to be too annoying 
But like this song was one of the first ones that made me love this singer 
(he has better ones but this is for me Se worship-y in this particular kind of way)




:skeleton:
Aca Lukas - Istina je da te lažem lyrics + English translation
(but hard to translate songs and make it sound the way it sounds when you're actually listening)


But yes, trust me on that, always looking for some Se in environment.
And definitely don't mind aggression and such.
And I'm often Se-ish in very stupid ways, now less so than before.



> I dunno, I have this tendency to perceive IEIs as the most distinctively "abstract" type of the bunch, excessively so. Ni lead and Te PoLR lends itself to a peculiar ivory tower of an existence. I'd say it's the type most prone to develop interest in the occult and the magical, like astrology (though not all IEIs do quite obviously). Also likely to scorn at the notion of interpreting the world through a pragmatic and more objective framework (even in an abstract manner, like Descartes' notion of perceiving reality through the mathematical laws and colors that oversee it), espousing instead a romantic lens of subjectivism.


I'm not really like this, I am bad at dealing with pragmatic world but I never developed any philosophies around it, I'm not very intellectual I guess in that sense, typology is my most intellectual interest but even that I turn into talking about myself, connecting with others, posting songs that definitely aren't Ni-ish and such, just don't relate to this at all, but I think it's possible I have some kind of romantic lens that's harder to recognize but if that's the case I think I take it for granted, I don't experience myself as an abstract person but I don't think I'm bad at understanding abstract concepts as long as they are about things I actually focus on.

Not into astrology but was into occult-ish stuff for a while, the thing is I'm not very aware of my interests,obviously I am aware but like...I guess could be Fe and enneagram partly, don't talk that much about things that others don't care about and I get called obsessive as it is, do sometimes try to like drop things that interest me into conversations though and see what happens (but like...it's more about getting the topic out there, it just does something for me), but also bigger reason would be that I don't have much patience, I don't really seek to understand everything about anything, I just like reading through things and looking for some tiny part that really catches my attention or I just want it to paint my inner landscape in a way, so I'm absorbed in it only in the moment, I feel like I often say "Oh I love X thing!" but then people expect me to know actual things about it and I often don't 
I just love it in some kind of abstract way or love one little part of it.
And as I said before I prefer to read what people have to say about things and I might google something that catches my attention, don't like learning on my own.

As a child/teen I'd often ask dad all kinds of questions and really wanted him to go in depth and it was confusing to him how I'd ask all these things but I never wanted to read or watch documentaries or anything.

Read something about Te PoLR not trusting sources and I could relate to that, or like sources have too much information I don't know what to do with and it's all phrased weirdly, I prefer things that come directly out of someone's head.

Or like remember getting introduced to functions for the first time, my reaction internally was "Are you kidding me, I don't want to have to learn all of this! :upset: ", I just saw all these letter combinations and felt like crying, but then I ended up learning it with time by accident.



> Like, that post I made the other day that you didn't really understand is typically the kind of shit that I'd expect an IEI to eat up. Aaaaaaand I'm starting to over intellectualize this, dammit. I'm mostly thinking of Ni subtype here who seems more INTX, the Fe subtype should be a bit different. Not as "intellectual" but still with a sage-like vibe, but more into performing arts, interpersonal interaction and more obviously outgoing. Probably more socially successful too. I don't think it makes them less heady so much as less caught up inside themselves and their inner world. Ni subs are darker, but less dramatic I would say. Like, I consider myself abstract enough, but if I were an IEI and I had to choose I'd fit Fe sub better.


I'd be Fe subtype for sure.
Still I wouldn't call myself sage-like, and again I'm not very intellectual.
One thing that makes me feel extremely not Ti HA, my dad is an INTP and growing up he'd get so mad at my refusal to think, like he'd try to explain math to me and I just wanted him to like tell me the secret to getting correct results without understanding anything lol, was convinced it had to be possible, constantly said things like "That's great, but Sarah always gets an A and she doesn't understand a thing!", and I just cried, cried, cried, thought he was just calling me stupid and trying to torture me as much as possible. 
But he said that once I'd actually stop crying and start thinking I wasn't that bad at thinking, just had to accept his framework, but it took hours to get me to that place and we had to go through that every single time.

But I appreciate some kind of Ti, I like TP explanations of things, also stuff like your very accurate posts on what's wrong with this thread, think that kind of thing could count as Ti appreciation maybe? (could just be T?)



> I don't know that much from you, though you do sound like a Merry type kindred to me  Why are you considering IEI ?


Tbh I don't know, mostly because I feel Beta/Fe and Se valuing and not ST and not EIE because I'm not ExxJ-ish and I don't have causes or mobilize people to do grand things or really any kind of things, ever, I act much more like an introvert, and an introvert without idealistic causes. None of those descriptions sound like me 



> It's a pretty beta tritype tbh, and I do take note of the "you're 3 fixed" subliminal message you sneaked in there haha.
> 
> I'd associate beta with 3, 4 and 6 (with a bit of 8), alpha sounds 7ish and 9ish. This is all pretty annoying.


:ninja:

Btw I said I could see So last in the past but I think I changed my mind 



_________________
Someone mentioned foxes, love this song, posted it a while ago but deleted it because I loved it too much lol and I was so excited that it's from 1995 which is the year of my birth (I just suddenly discovered it around Christmas and I was in shock that I never heard it before)
(also made me change my name back to Vixey because I felt the need to incorporate the word fox into my life)


----------



## Darkbloom

I love sloths and their algae covered fur, so cute, maybe it's my 9 fix talking


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> I feel like @Vixey is kind of like that lol. I prefer the idea of Icarus more than the idea of one being a "peacock" lol. Peacocks are more 3-ish, but don't think sx has to be "showy" ("Showy" =/= "Fiery") like that necessarily, or find peacocks that sx actually.


I would never say I'm a moderate person but like...I'm immoderate inside my room, but can't imagine flying too high or setting myself on fire, I like...instincitively know where the limit is and might consciously come near it or somehow manage to move it a bit or get one finger over it while keeping the rest out, but I couldn't take myself over it, I'd definitely feel my wings getting warmer every second before I even got somewhat close to the sun.
Oh realized I got a bit off topic, definitely Daedalus in that situation, flying is enough of an adventure as it is without doing stupid things, would save stupidity for another day.
See this as sp-ish, this is mainly how my sp is.

And agree about peacocks (and generally don't like them)


----------



## Dangerose

@Vixey I love the little fox song, also you're much more fox-like than me, probably sp/sx 

(I don't know what animal people would associate with me, I like the idea of lion as I said and I feel that energy matches better, but probably it would be a less flattering animal in the end haha)

also I was going to say more but now i have to catch the bus I missed earlier, peacocks seem social to me, maybe just because fancy people have them  but obviously the feathers are a 'social' display but then again you walk past a peacock at the zoo or on the street or whatever (there are some peacocks who live near me and they'll be on the road like the own it and never moving, just strutting with their feathers all out, maybe they are trying to intimidate the cars with their high fashion) doesn't matter if a female is around they'll just be walking around like you should stop and bow to them because they have a nice feather pattern

I don't like peacocks much, but they seem like so/sx 3s or something

edit: always confuse them with phoenixes which I do like


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I like peacocks. 

(Wrote a lot more earlier, but haven't been able to preview my stuff so can't post it.)

Anyway, the peacock thing isn't saying that someone who is Sx necessarily resembles a peacock, but more about the function of peacocking.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> I thought we were over this contra flow shit.


Yeah, I thought I was too haha, but I am reconsidering it, and it's like the only way I can easily rule out my instincts at this point, even if it's completely baseless. 

That was a great find on those descriptions! Never seen them before, and I thought I've seen them all by now. 


Vixey said:


> :blushed:
> 
> Or like remember getting introduced to functions for the first time, my reaction internally was "Are you kidding me, I don't want to have to learn all of this! :upset: ", I just saw all these letter combinations and felt like crying, but then I ended up learning it with time by accident.
> 
> I'd be Fe subtype for sure.
> Still I wouldn't call myself sage-like, and again I'm not very intellectual.
> One thing that makes me feel extremely not Ti HA, my dad is an INTP and growing up he'd get so mad at my refusal to think, like he'd try to explain math to me and I just wanted him to like tell me the secret to getting correct results without understanding anything lol, was convinced it had to be possible, constantly said things like "That's great, but Sarah always gets an A and she doesn't understand a thing!", and I just cried, cried, cried, thought he was just calling me stupid and trying to torture me as much as possible.
> But he said that once I'd actually stop crying and start thinking I wasn't that bad at thinking, just had to accept his framework, but it took hours to get me to that place and we had to go through that every single time.
> 
> But I appreciate some kind of Ti, I like TP explanations of things, also stuff like your very accurate posts on what's wrong with this thread, think that kind of thing could count as Ti appreciation maybe? (could just be T?)


Have you seen these descriptions before? Socionics - the16types.info - Socionics Aspects in the Valued Functions by Dmitry Golihov

That feels like inferior Ti to me:



> Ti as suggestive function EIE (ENFj; Hamlet) ESE (ESFj; Hugo) - deliberately searches for a place where everything is clear and avoids those places where something remains unclear, primarily from the point of view of common sense. Needs people who know how to make complicated things more understandable and becomes attached to such people. If you tell him that something is going to be difficult to understand, then he won't even make attempts. If you tell him that it will be easy to understand, he will become inspired by this. Very suggestible by understanding of other people and, in general, by any logic, thus can easily believe in the most bizarre and unrealistic things, very easy to convince. Loves to learn, but to those courses where everything is explained in meticulous detail. Lectures where instructor simply gives terms and facts repel him, as each term must be explained to him in detail. Can easily get tricked because of this suggestibility through logic. Wherever someone gives them explanations so that everything is simple and clear, they will favor such place. In situations where he doesn't understand something, may pretend to be stupid, uninterested, or bored. Becomes angry with those who know but refuse to explain what it is not clear to him; believes that they are mocking him. The best environment for him is where everything is 100% understandable.





> Tbh I don't know, mostly because I feel Beta/Fe and Se valuing and not ST and not EIE because I'm not ExxJ-ish and I don't have causes or mobilize people to do grand things or really any kind of things, ever, I act much more like an introvert, and an introvert without idealistic causes. None of those descriptions sound like me


I thought EIE for you, like above can be Se HA too, but I could see you being an introvert irrational type too.



Vixey said:


> I love sloths and their algae covered fur, so cute, maybe it's my 9 fix talking


Haha, yes, sloths are so 9! I think all those animals can be correlated to types too, but was just focusing on instincts, so sloth overall would be a 9 sp/sx. I really like sloths too, though. 



Vixey said:


> I would never say I'm a moderate person but like...I'm immoderate inside my room, but can't imagine flying too high or setting myself on fire, I like...instincitively know where the limit is and might consciously come near it or somehow manage to move it a bit or get one finger over it while keeping the rest out, but I couldn't take myself over it, I'd definitely feel my wings getting warmer every second before I even got somewhat close to the sun.
> Oh realized I got a bit off topic, definitely Daedalus in that situation, flying is enough of an adventure as it is without doing stupid things, would save stupidity for another day.
> See this as sp-ish, this is mainly how my sp is.


Oh yeah, didn't mean that you were moderate, but like you tend to be very particular in that Goldilocks/Niles sp-way haha, like the way you described the room before:



> Yes I can see it too, I don't seem to like things that are too bright and open and such, hard to explain what exactly I like about things though.
> Like that bed one, it's nice looking to me but also like...think I like the way pillows are positioned, not too perfectly and fabric is a bit wrinkled, like it looks lived-in, also how they lean against each other, and overall it feels intimate and I guess lightly suffocate-y, feels like a possessive room in a way.
> And other images around it add to the thing I think.


I don't think about it in that way really. Found this on that enneasite website, which speaks to the suffocating social-lastness. http://enneasite.com/the-stackings/



> *For example, sx/sp and sp/sx are significantly missing the Social elements of fresh air and sunlight.* Looking at them there’s a kind of shrouded/hooded quality, something of a cave-dweller or a Death theme in some form (scroll back up to the stacking titles in the section just above to get a feel for it). ‹ *Take away air, quickly comes Death. › The obliviousness to the collective good (Social-last) contributes to the shadowy/cloaked quality of these stackings *— there’s an unintelligence about social stigma that can take people of these two stackings deep into ‘alternative’ territories. The aspect of Social that’s compelled to define people into clear roles that connect into a bigger picture is missing here. So, an upside in these two stackings is that communications can be more personal, contactful and intimate because the aura of the collective isn’t brought into one-to-one exchanges in the way it inadvertently is with those who aren’t social-last. This friend-of-the-dark quality can translate to a capacity to work, hands on (figuratively-speaking), in the muck of psyche, and linger long in a non-judgmental attitude with other people’s ugly/corrupt underbellies and issues, potentially even spilling themselves into others’ dark sides.





Nissa Nissa said:


> also I was going to say more but now i have to catch the bus I missed earlier, peacocks seem social to me, maybe just because fancy people have them  but obviously the feathers are a 'social' display but then again you walk past a peacock at the zoo or on the street or whatever (there are some peacocks who live near me and they'll be on the road like the own it and never moving, just strutting with their feathers all out, *maybe they are trying to intimidate the cars with their high fashion)* doesn't matter if a female is around they'll just be walking around like you should stop and bow to them because they have a nice feather pattern
> 
> I don't like peacocks much, but they seem like so/sx 3s or something


:laughing: Yes, that was exactly what I was thinking for peacocks as being Social 3s, like they make me think of Gilderoy Lockhart, but can see why they're used to describe sx. 



> edit: always confuse them with phoenixes which I do like


Now those I can see as sx/so.


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yes, that was exactly what I was thinking for peacocks as being Social 3s, like they make me think of Gilderoy Lockhart, but can see why they're used to describe sx.


Made me think of him too! :laughing:

I'll respond to the rest later, have to go study computers :typingneko:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Peacocks can be really cool: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rPEVKhJ55m4

@Vixey

Yep, what you said sounds more EIE than IEI. Forget the idea that EIEs have to rile up crows and lead revolutions, why do you not relate to Ej temperament ?

And did you mean not SO last for you or for me?


----------



## Greyhart

ElectricSlime said:


> March break is finally upon me, as such I require narcissistic fuel and a daily dose of overthinking.
> 
> Confession: The more I read about Alpha NTs, the more I feel I don’t fit with this whole Big Bang Theory thing of geek Marvel T-shirts and sci fi that they love so much. I’m too tasteful basically (though still outclassed by the Si ego types, obviously).
> 
> @Immolate
> 
> O, you precious cinnamon roll that has arrived to the same conclusions I have several times and knows her shit, what feasible alternatives should I explore ? You can even throw Fi types in there.


Beta


----------



## ElectricSlime

Greyhart said:


> Beta


But which one 

I feel I could be a bit of everything, but no absolute fit... LSI sounds least likely tho.

EIE is great on many levels but Ti seeking is weird. I relate more to Se seeking, but then again Te PoLR is a no no.


----------



## Animal

Nissa Nissa said:


> Oh good, I was so unhelpful about my sources but they exist
> Anyways I think I've said it before but I can see 5 for you and it might seem better than 8.


 cool 
I had never settled on either, but something about me is that I'll drive a case to the ground to see if someone can rip it to shreds. (Or if I myself can see the holes in it.) Although I did repeat many times that I hadn't settled; I wanted to make my case. I also made it clear that I made 5% of my case on this forum, compared to my whole case. 

I don't think this was the right place for a real argument.. there are many ideas on this forum about 4 which exclude the very vital component of "image type" - which was being put on the '3 wing,' incorrectly. A 4w5 is still an image type. People here were arguing 4w3 but for the wrong reasons, and I knew those reasons were mostly bunk (with a few exceptions which I acknowledged), so they didn't help me. I was able to argue it out elsewhere, which always helps since you can't see the forest through the trees, and obviously I do have both 3 and 5 influence as a 4. But the reasons being given on this thread for me being 3 wing were basically "you're fake, you boast, we hate you." 4w5s can be quite hatable, imagey and boasty too, so this didn't cut it for me. In fact, 4w3 should theoretically be better at being liked and dealing with humans.

Part of the confusion was this: I have ironed out that I am Sx/Sp after all. Although I have magnetism, cast a big shadow and appear Sx/So in theory, a friend who is actually Sx/So was able to catch the social nuances that I miss in real time. She pointed out that I had a lucrative career, saved money as a kid, always enacted step by step plans for my future and didn't sabotage them, and took care of my very complicated illness with an insane amount of autonomy considering the circumstance. This is more appropriate for Sp middle (comfort zone). I've done dangerous things, which I shared in another thread - which is normal for 478 (especially me, with 7w8 and 8w7 fixes) ... but I knew my limits, even if they aren't the same as other people's limits, and managed to avoid most permanent consequences or legal trouble, which says a lot for a traumatized Sx 478.

When it comes to Soc, I've overdeveloped shades of it as a compensation for other trauma, and also possibly because of my 3 wing. But in real time, I always somehow end up being kicked in the ass due to social clunk and lack of awareness of context, as you can see clearly from my interactions on this forum.

In terms of discussion, note that I don't share my deeper ideas here anymore because perc owns any post that is published and I plan to write my own website and book. So the people here actually have no idea about the nuances I apply to my own typing process, but I prefer to use this thread to get their feedback based on impressions that aren't colored by those arguments.

I still stand by everything I said about _other people here _who are or aren't Sx/So. Understanding what it means and how it manifests in others does not always translate to understanding what you're exuding yourself.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Forget the idea that EIEs have to rile up crows and lead revolutions



* *


----------



## ElectricSlime

nissa nissa said:


> * *


you cannot be iei if you don’t see the futuuuuureee

Edit: Does perC not allow caps lock ? What the hell is this shit


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> But which one
> 
> I feel I could be a bit of everything, but no absolute fit... LSI sounds least likely tho.
> 
> EIE is great on many levels but Ti seeking is weird. I relate more to Se seeking, but then again Te PoLR is a no no.


Ti seeking and Te PoLR both seem very wrong, imo both your Ti and Te are really good 
(but that might easily be because mine are so bad that I can't even judge and I'm mistaking some type unrelated kind of thinking and logic for Ti and Te)
Think I could see IEI more easily though 

And I meant not So last for you!


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ElectricSlime said:


> Peacocks can be really cool: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rPEVKhJ55m4


Lol, I was thinking of that (really like that movie/character). But yeah, it doesn't make my case of peacocks=Sx :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> you cannot be iei if you don’t see the futuuuuureee
> 
> Edit: Does perC not allow caps lock ? What the hell is this shit


IT LETS ME DO IT but i'm just special


----------



## ElectricSlime

Remnants said:


> Lol, I was thinking of that (really like that movie/character). But yeah, it doesn't make my case of peacocks=Sx :laughing:


There are few things more heartbreaking yet badass than a villain that knows just how wrong he is but keeps on pushing towards his self destruction despite the turmoil, all this to preserve the only thing he has left: his pride.




Nissa Nissa said:


> IT LETS ME DO IT but i'm just special


IT SEEMS MY PHONE WAS GETTING TOO COCKY BUT EVERYTHING'S A OKAY NOW


----------



## Greyhart

Immolate said:


> @Greyhart :witch:
> 
> 
> But, anyhow, I think this is a fair description of IEI and very much reminds me of someone who used to be more active. I hesitate to tag them, though, because this thread is kind of a mess.


See, saying "someone" is a lot more effective if you don't tag the said someone. Also I hate Zodiac. Stars have no hold on me. OK, I sorta like the symbolism of it but the way it's used in media is just ugh. No, me being born under fursona archer sign has nothing to do with my personality.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ElectricSlime said:


> There are few things more heartbreaking yet badass than a villain that knows just how wrong he is but keeps on pushing towards his self destruction despite the turmoil, all this to preserve the only thing he has left: his pride.


Indeed. Also, nice character design.

(Was disappointed by the third movie, while it was entertaining... Wish they could have kept going with the mixture of drama and humor and instead it's mostly just silly.)

Anyway, to be somewhat on-topic...


Paradigm said:


> Sure, no worries. I feel like we're basically looking and interpreting the same info but coming to different conclusions. Mainly I think we might be defining mid and last instincts a little differently. I see "all or nothing, stretching a muscle" as more mid behavior, whereas you're seemingly putting it as more fitting for last.



Why so? If the middle instinct is more of a comfort spot, doesn't it make more sense for it to be more "take or leave", while the last instinct usually gets the least attention so then it would be more of an unused muscle


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> See, saying "someone" is a lot more effective if you don't tag the said someone. Also I hate Zodiac. Stars have no hold on me. OK, I sorta like the symbolism of it but the way it's used in media is just ugh. No, me being born under fursona archer sign has nothing to do with my personality.


nah, remember: watery

(will respond to rest when able)


----------



## Greyhart

Immolate said:


> nah, remember: watery
> 
> (will respond to rest when able)


Every mountain stars with a rock.

Am I sage enough now?


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet* Your Se PoLR is very obvious. As you know, in socionics it's referred to as Force, and you are anything but forceful. You also seemed to overestimate the malice or aggression in what @*ElectricSlime* said, which is partly overestimation of (non-existent - if he really is ILE) Se from him, though you are right that he ignores Fi, but looks like that's his PoLR so that's where the clash happened. You have always given me an Se PoLR vibe, and EII seems a much more likely fit than LII.





Nissa Nissa said:


> Rose explained it perfectly, don't think I have anything to add, just don't see Se as valued, and probably PoLR.
> Te and Ti are insanely hard for me to figure out. You don't strike me as all that Fi, but I was thinking that I may confuse seriousness with being a logical type, as Slime suggested.
> So I'd probably say EII then, really can't see ESI.


Thanks for the input! As well as not seeing valued/ego Se, do you see me as valuing/having ego Ne? Also, I do get told I can be too serious to take things too seriously - it can be hard for me to tell when someone's saying something more jokingly.
(Sorry about the slow reply, I was staying at my sister's.)


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Thanks for the input! As well as not seeing valued/ego Se, do you see me as valuing/having ego Ne? Also, I do get told I can be too serious to take things too seriously - it can be hard for me to tell when someone's saying something more jokingly.
> (Sorry about the slow reply, I was staying at my sister's.)


Oh, I was going to add something about that, don't see LOADS of Ne but I think it makes sense that it's there, see reasonable amounts of Si as well...though there's the whole Si/sp confusion

why were you typing ESI>EII? can you relate to Se? or Ne?


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> You know, leaving socionics aside for a moment, ENTP is very probably the best Jungian fit for me. So MBTI Ne dom. But I've never understood nor related to those complaints here. My conversations are scattered and dynamic, sure, but I never feel like I'm bringing up a thousand possibilities and that people are overwhelmed by them. It only ever happened a few times with ISTXs and one INTJ, who were seemingly unable to follow the rhythm. Never had that problem with INFJs or ESTPs, or any others really.
> It tends to go like this ---> Discussion of a subject -----> Is related to another topic that I feel could offer some conversation juice for 5 minutes and keep things smooth ------> Change of topic spontaneously so I don't forget it 2 seconds later, while keeping in mind what wasn't discussed previously so we go back once the current one is squeezed dry ----------> Go back to the topic as planned -----> Another related topic shows up and I repeat the process. That to me is how I use Ne, but it's actually not that hard to follow if you're not too slow on your feet. The whole "Green-Grass-Running-Race-Horse-Knight-Sword-Jedi-Space-SPACE ELEVATOR-SPACE COFFEE!!" kind of Ne shit described here isn't something that tends to happen in my daily life nor really what I care about.


Oh, no, I didn't mean something like that silly stereotype. That's not what I meant. It's more like I'm saying if there's something that triggers me to get all these different ideas side-by-side, and I don't mean a huge amount I mean more like at least three, I start to struggle to figure out how to organize it and make everything flow smoothly and connect fairly well to each other. I get kinda like a computer that's struggling to load all these different objects at once. 

I'm saying someone else might be able to do this with ease - and it doesn't bother me when someone else is doing this, and I can follow them, but it sure does bother the heck out of me when I'm trying to do it. It's like that feeling a neat freak gets when they see a painting that is hanging on a wall crooked. Or when you have an itch you can't scratch. 

What I end up doing after this usually is I either throw the whole thing out or try to narrow it down, try to streamline it and remove some fluff. 

While we're at it, here's another *ex*. of something that might cause me to want to throw the whole thing away - Uncertainty and wishy-washyness. It bothers me if I catch myself saying "I don't know" or something along the lines of "It could be the case… but maybe not…". Just, ugh. I guess it's okay in moderation, if it's only 25% of the content, but at least 75% of it needs to have some level of certainty. I don't like having it be blurry like that. I just want to up the contrast, bring it into sharp relief.



ElectricSlime said:


> I don't blame you for misunderstanding since the profile's phrasing was poor, but what it said there was in line for both Alpha and Beta quadras. It referred to the blocking of Fi in social settings, where more personal discussions are to be avoided as much as possible because it makes the mood more awkward, allows less people to participate and because it infringes on their more libertine sense of humor (Fi quadras prefer more genuine, serious and personal topics, even in groups, since they disdain the Fe camaraderie method of bonding). Fe types dislike disclosing their more Fi feelings in public settings since having to sidestep around them to avoid offending others seem like an obstacle to amplifying the emotional atmosphere and they don't want to feel that way nor do they want it for others, so it's mostly reserved to more intimate interactions. Doesn't mean they necessarily run over Fi and offend everyone, but it's an avoided area.


Good thing you bring up the Fi blocking because that's something I had considered bringing up but ended up tossing.



> Beta types are not inclined to enjoy discussions of personal experiences when the focus is on a person's own inner feelings.


Can relate, but wouldn't say it's entirely related to wanting to avoid offense, though that is* a *reason. There's another reason, too, but that's not really the point. 



> Alpha types prefer to avoid the discussion of controversial and unpleasant subjects regarding personal relationships while in groups, especially if leading to confrontations.


This one leaves more of a "?" mark when I read it for two reasons: 1. Doesn't seem as immediately relatable. 2. I'm wondering why the Beta description says "experiences" and the Alpha brings up "relationships". 



ElectricSlime said:


> It's what you described there.


You might have me there. But I'm not sure it relates to what was being said there. Those standards I mentioned don't originate from an outward standard but from an inward ideal. No one pressures me to do it, I decided it myself, but I am considering external consequences. "I should be like this", "The community should seek to be like this and avoid doing [x], that's what's best to do and what benefits our image the most". 

I'm having this in mind as I say this:



> ESEs generally seek to take action based on the emotional responsibilities and pressures they feel


I don't have these standards due to feeling pressured. I feel responsible, but that's a responsibility I chose for myself. 

I'm probably not understanding this part quite right… and my answer might not indicate ESE qualities or EIE qualities but something else. But anyway, moving on...

Another thing about ESE that I think doesn't fit me is how it's described as having so much to do with awareness of the sensory states of others.



> ESEs are primarily focused on sensory experiences and a lifestyle that will afford them comfort, harmony, and the opportunity to focus on the finer points in life. However, they are typically more focused on ensuring the positive sensory experiences of others than their own. Their attention to sensory needs, however, is not dominant in their character, but rather directed towards others in their emotional sphere; their kinesthetic expertise is commonly directed towards evaluating whether others are comfortable and whether the needs of others are being met, and much of the energy they devote to aesthetics, cooking, etc. is intended primarily for the benefit of others, or to sustain the emotional mood of a particular occasion.


This is more of a blindspot for me. I don't notice this. I don't even think to notice this. And my focus in life isn't wanting a "lifestyle that will afford [me] comfort, harmony, and the opportunity to focus on the finer points in life". 



> They often seek lifestyles or hobbies that further their own sensory pleasures and that improve immediate environment; many ESEs might have an interest in things like cooking, gardening, music, interior design, etc. They are often attentive to the aesthetics of their surroundings, and can sometimes be quite overbearing and fastidious about their environment.


Another blindspot. Growing up my room and belongings were completely devoid of customization. My clothes and how I dressed was where I gave the most attention, but even that needed work that I'm just now trying to do better with. I've actually had this in mind as something I want to improve on - having a nice environment that reflects me instead of being bare and not having personality. _(This is also a reminder that I really should find a better avatar…)
_
I'm not seeking a lifestyle having to do with "sensory pleasures", either. Unless wanting excitement counts. I can remember having a conversation once about how I didn't see art as being fulfilling and was more interested in something like politics, seeing more fulfillment there. I'm a little bit rejecting of having a lifestyle mostly motivated and centered around the sensory. Key word: little bit. I don't adamantly hate it but it's not what I want as a main focus. 

The parts of politics that interest me notably don't have to do with anything sensory or people's physical needs. I have trouble feeling passionate about the topic of healthcare, or hunger, or the physical nitty gritty details of poverty in general. It's something I need to work on having more enthusiasm for. What might catch my interest instead that is related to these things is something like links between poverty and mental illness and family dysfunction.

What does interest me by contrast: groups*, corruption, social problems, culture

*


> Beta quadra types are inclined to attribute to a new acquaintance traits that they have previously observed in other individuals belonging to the same group as they see the new acquaintance as belonging to (Aristocracy).





> "[They"] are inclined to look for general rules explaining people, politics, mechanisms and trends, rules that once defined can be applied generally, rather than go about things in a case-by-case way.


I can think of an exception to "looking for general rules" and going about things in a "case-by-case" way... and that has to do with gender/sex/whichever word we're using here. Never have liked generalizing people based on that. Think that might have a little bit (so not entirely) to do with the "[semi-]rejection of the physical" theme. Dislike of generalizing myself or others based on some physical state that wasn't chosen. Otherwise, that sounds right. 

Side note, are Alpha and Beta the only quadras you consider possible for yourself? I know already you don't like the idea of Alpha but are having trouble finding a fit with Beta.



Cacaia said:


> I finally broke down and paid for the actual Myers Briggs test. I was quite surprised. It says I have a slight preference to N and a heavy preference for J. I made sure I took the test at night, when I am the most tired, so I wouldn't think too much about the answers.
> I always thought I was an ENFJ with ENFP tendencies. Turns out, I'm an ENFJ with ESFJ tendencies ;-)


Now here we might have an ESE. … But you look like you're still getting the hang of MBTI, so please don't let us confuse you with talk of socionics! ^_^;; Especially considering I'm not that familiar with it.


----------



## Paradigm

Remnants said:


> Why so? If the middle instinct is more of a comfort spot, doesn't it make more sense for it to be more "take or leave", while the last instinct usually gets the least attention so then it would be more of an unused muscle


That's why I see it as "secondary behavior," _because _it can get picked up or put down at will. I'm considering the "exercising a muscle" as being in the middle of the spectrum in a sort of severe sense: there's people who exercise daily, people who don't exercise but can, and people who can't exercise at all. (Of course, with instincts there's not really a "can't" in the same way, but analogies are usually imperfect.) So to me, an "unused muscle" isn't a muscle that can't/doesn't perform, just a muscle that doesn't perform consistently. The last instinct should be more akin to a muscle that doesn't work at all, or requires much more effort to use, which is a bit different.

Of course, others could interpret this analogy differently, but... Just answering from my POV.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@owlet I haven't seen enough of you on here to say for sure, but I could see Ne. You very much prefer things being open-ended and non...I guess strongly opinionated as in "X is Y, period. That's it, I am certain of it." That sort of thing - you are the complete opposite of that. I don't know if it speaks more to MBTI Ne or socionics, or perhaps both, but yeah. You have a very gentle presence and don't use Se even if the situation perhaps calls for it (I am the same way).


----------



## nep2une

Rose for a Heart said:


> Because, to be honest, I relate to everything you said in the above quote, and I display that quality on here all too frequently. Me spilling my guts out to the complete and utter detriment of my SP - because my neurotic SX is looking for that connection, that bond, that complete oneness. While with SP seconds, if they have been hurt like I have been when it comes to their instinct, they retreat. They withdraw. They are too terrified of the rejections to put themselves in that position because they are afraid of being burned. They still desire it, but their SP keeps their psychological safety and integrity in check. That has not been the case with me at all, to the point my psyche tore apart and out poured all this traumatic unconscious hurt and pain I had unwittingly inflicted on myself. I wasn't trying to be "self-destructive"; it was more like...I didn't realize I was being hurt. That is setting myself "on fire." I do feel like my presence, on here, and otherwise, has that archetypal Sx/So quality of pushing the boundaries, of "shaking things up" with the Social world as the recipient and the stage - and that's exactly what I have done on here as well, now that I realize.


I'm not very familiar with you but what I've seen of you in passing fits everything you're saying here.



Vixey said:


> Don't think I ever discuss things like that in depth, but for example I watch some youtubers and there are these gossip forums and I sometimes lurk because it's just interesting to me to read about how people think someone is a liar or whatever even if I don't agree


Yeah, I used to read those. Didn't post but would read.



Vixey said:


> don't think I'd connect over that kind of thing, even if I don't like the person I just don't feel like focusing on those things


Well, it does sound like a strange interest. Frankly it feels like a dirty secret to me. Part of the motivation behind it, that is hard to not bring up because it's such a big part of it, was because of past experiences with abuse (not just me, one of the friends I mentioned had experiences with that, too) that as a result made me get very interested in being able to tell who's trustworthy or not. So I can say there is very much a protective/self-protective motivation behind it that might not be obvious.

For awhile it was a big portion of my identity. I used to talk to friends of mine often about ways to know if you're in danger of being abused or manipulated because I wanted to help them know how to protect themselves. I thought that maybe my purpose would be to find bad apples in the world or in the community, people who wanted to deceive or hurt others, and do something about it. Expose them, I guess. I think this sounds a bit grandoise or silly, but it's true.

I've mellowed out on it in the past months but I would still say it's an important part of my identity. I used to talk and think about it often. Now I prefer not to because I did enough talking and thinking about it in the past and these days I'd like to focus on other things. 

On a related note, I agree with these quotes:

"Remember it all, every insult, every tear. Tattoo it on the inside of your mind. In life, knowledge of poisons is essential." - White Oleander

That one's a bit ironic considering who's saying it in the novel. If you've read it, you know what I mean. 

This next one is a bit on the religious side, and I'm not religious, but I agree with it.

"Judaism believes that while forgiveness is often a virtue, hate can be virtuous when one is dealing with the frightfully wicked. Rather than forgive, we can wish ill; rather than hope for repentance, we can instead hope that our enemies experience the wrath of God." - Rabbi Dr. Meir Y. Soloveichik



mistakenforstranger said:


> Sp/sx - Bear, Sloth, "Lone wolf" (Wolves, though, are very Social)









mistakenforstranger said:


> Sx/so - Lion, Bull, Wolves ("Hungry Like the Wolf"), and maybe Foxes?







Just adding music to go with two of these out of a whim, don't mind me…



mistakenforstranger said:


> Anyways, I'm probably talking out of my ass with all this...:laughing:


This is a relatable sentiment.


----------



## Darkbloom

EIE for sure, no one should ever let me doubt it.
And think I started trying to improve my Si PoLR at some point, but like...in a very Ni/Se and Fe way? (no time to explain, it just hit me and felt like sharing)
Think EIE sp 2 specifically makes perfect sense.


----------



## Darkbloom

So these are each type's most common expressions according to Katherine Fauvre


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> So these are each type's most common expressions according to Katherine Fauvre
> View attachment 776521


sorry if this is supposed to be serious but I can't stop laughing


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> So these are each type's most common expressions according to Katherine Fauvre
> View attachment 776521


I’m trying to make sense of whether the 8 is holding back tears, laughter or a huge shit :scratch:




Vixey said:


> EIE for sure, no one should ever let me doubt it.
> And think I started trying to improve my Si PoLR at some point, but like...in a very Ni/Se and Fe way? (no time to explain, it just hit me and felt like sharing)
> Think EIE sp 2 specifically makes perfect sense.


LSE, believe it !


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> I'm saying someone else might be able to do this with ease - and it doesn't bother me when someone else is doing this, and I can follow them, but it sure does bother the heck out of me when I'm trying to do it. It's like that feeling a neat freak gets when they see a painting that is hanging on a wall crooked. Or when you have an itch you can't scratch.


This probably speaks of a weak Ne, rather than a devalued one ? You could very well not value it, but according to this your Ne would indeed be weak.




> This one leaves more of a "?" mark when I read it for two reasons: 1. Doesn't seem as immediately relatable. 2. I'm wondering why the Beta description says "experiences" and the Alpha brings up "relationships".


Didn't notice that, good catch, but not sure... I relate better to Beta there for sure myself. This goes back to the point about Fe-Si being the "feel good" Fe and Fe Se being the more dramatic and darker one. 



> You might have me there. But I'm not sure it relates to what was being said there. Those standards I mentioned don't originate from an outward standard but from an inward ideal. No one pressures me to do it, I decided it myself, but I am considering external consequences. "I should be like this", "The community should seek to be like this and avoid doing [x], that's what's best to do and what benefits our image the most".


Aren't your internal standards shaped by your external interactions and experiences anyway ? I dunno, this might be Fi, although I guess a highly dutiful and principled Ti lead might say that too. *shrugs*



> I don't have these standards due to feeling pressured. I feel responsible, but that's a responsibility I chose for myself.


Well that makes you pressured by your superego I suppose. 



> Another thing about ESE that I think doesn't fit me is how it's described as having so much to do with awareness of the sensory states of others.
> 
> This is more of a blindspot for me. I don't notice this. I don't even think to notice this. And my focus in life isn't wanting a "lifestyle that will afford [me] comfort, harmony, and the opportunity to focus on the finer points in life".


Okay. 



> Another blindspot. Growing up my room and belongings were completely devoid of customization. My clothes and how I dressed was where I gave the most attention, but even that needed work that I'm just now trying to do better with. I've actually had this in mind as something I want to improve on - having a nice environment that reflects me instead of being bare and not having personality. _(This is also a reminder that I really should find a better avatar…)
> _
> I'm not seeking a lifestyle having to do with "sensory pleasures", either. Unless wanting excitement counts. *I can remember having a conversation once about how I didn't see art as being fulfilling and was more interested in something like politics, seeing more fulfillment there.* I'm a little bit rejecting of having a lifestyle mostly motivated and centered around the sensory. Key word: little bit. I don't adamantly hate it but it's not what I want as a main focus.


A Beta NF that wouldn't like art :shocked: 

And I've never decorated my room either, to me it has always been a bunker to sleep in and get some well needed off time from expectations. And stockpile my books.



> *The parts of politics that interest me notably don't have to do with anything sensory or people's physical needs. I have trouble feeling passionate about the topic of healthcare, or hunger, or the physical nitty gritty details of poverty in general.* It's something I need to work on having more enthusiasm for. What might catch my interest instead that is related to these things is something like links between poverty and mental illness and family dysfunction.


I don't think Si valuers are necessarily like that, sounds a bit dumb.



> What does interest me by contrast: groups*, corruption, social problems, culture


You're such a SO dom 

*





> *I can think of an exception to "looking for general rules" and going about things in a "case-by-case" way... and that has to do with gender/sex/whichever word we're using here. Never have liked generalizing people based on that. Think that might have a little bit (so not entirely) to do with the "[semi-]rejection of the physical" theme. Dislike of generalizing myself or others based on some physical state that wasn't chosen.* Otherwise, that sounds right.


Democratic quadra over Aristocratic perhaps ? It's a bit easy of a judgement tho, so I wouldn't put much stock into it. Especially cause I can find points for in myself for both depending on the day. 



> Side note, are Alpha and Beta the only quadras you consider possible for yourself? I know already you don't like the idea of Alpha but are having trouble finding a fit with Beta.


Anything's possible, but my Si sucks, that I'm certain of. If there's one thing I relate to better about Fi than Fe it's the part about preferring smaller and more intimate groups for parties. Big rowdy stuff with flashing neon light, strangers on speed puking in the corner and people humping each other was never my cup of tea. (I'm caricaturing, but the the sole fact that I am should speak volumes about my opinion on the matter)


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> sorry if this is supposed to be serious but I can't stop laughing


Checked this thread while I was in the car with dad and stepmother, spent 5 minutes trying not to laugh, and failing :laughing:



ElectricSlime said:


> I’m trying to make sense of whether the 8 is holding back tears, laughter or a huge shit :scratch:


All of it I'd say 
I'm more worried about 2s Katherine hangs out with.



> LSE, believe it !


Dang, just when I thought I had it all figured out :frustrating:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Ti seeking and Te PoLR both seem very wrong, imo both your Ti and Te are really good
> (but that might easily be because mine are so bad that I can't even judge and I'm mistaking some type unrelated kind of thinking and logic for Ti and Te)
> *Think I could see IEI more easily though *
> 
> And I meant not So last for you!


Why exactly ? 

My lifestyle is clearly more IEI (an unpractical homebody looking for a purpose to go out and do shit, but unsure where and how to start) but I think my behavior is much more EIE. Se HA is also more relatable, with wanting to look confrontational, badass and charismatic and shit. In fact I think my behavior might make me look SLE on the surface but if you dig deeper I lack an action orientation. Incidentally I tend to to doubt and think and wait and postpone taking an action (a E6 trait no doubt), but when I do take action, it's very much swift, resolute, hasty and direct, sometimes too much so. In that case I can fuck up hard, although it has paid off a handful of times. There's a reason why Hamlet is one of the characters I relate to the most (aside from him leaning on the emo existential and introspective side and having a leaning towards subtly mocking everything). But yeah starting the gas is the hard part.

Coincidentally aren't IEIs supposed to have a talent at being universally liked ? I seem to have a talent for making enemies lol.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Why exactly ?
> 
> My lifestyle is clearly more IEI (an unpractical homebody looking for a purpose to go out and do shit, but unsure where and how to start) but I think my behavior is much more EIE. Se HA is also more relatable, with wanting to look confrontational, badass and charismatic and shit. In fact I think my behavior might make me look SLE on the surface but if you dig deeper I lack an action orientation. Incidentally I tend to to doubt and think and wait and postpone taking an action (a E6 trait no doubt), but when I do take action, it's very much swift, resolute, hasty and direct, sometimes too much so. In that case I can fuck up hard, although it has paid off a handful of times. There's a reason why Hamlet is one of the characters I relate to the most (aside from him leaning on the emo existential side and having a leaning towards subtly mocking everything). But yeah starting the gas is the hard part.


I guess I don't see you as someone who lives and breathes Fe? (not talking just about that alpha Fe)
And I think I have less of a problem with Ti HA and Te PoLR than Ti seeking for some reason?
But not sure, don't think I can quite see Te as PoLR either,and what you're saying makes sense 
Se HA I could see but what sane person isn't a bit Se HA regardless of type, Se is obviously the coolest 

IEI's are known for being liked?
And what enemies do you have?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> I guess I don't see you as someone who lives and breathes Fe? (not talking just about that alpha Fe)


Agreed. Do you relate to that yourself ?



> And I think I have less of a problem with Ti HA and Te PoLR than Ti seeking for some reason?


Does appreciating having a grunt partner to do the bloody math problems in your stead and fill out your taxes look like Ti seeking ? enguin:

I'd sooner see Si PoLR than Te PoLR personally.



> Se HA I could see but what sane person isn't a bit Se HA regardless of type, Se is obviously the coolest


Speaking as a history nerd, can't quite deny that the coolest people were Se leads :sad: Even my current profile avatar from way back, Gilgamesh, as well as Jaime Lannister are SLEs. And Oberyn Martell is probably SEE...



> IEI's are known for being liked?
> And what enemies do you have?


Well I think..? EIEs have Fi ignoring and lack the spontaneity of IEIs, which supposedly makes them uncomfortable at flirting for flirting's sake. Makes sense. IEIs are supposedly charming leeches lol.

And a lot of people, mostly from the past. I'm naturally an elitist unfortunately (something that I seem to loathe and treasure equally about myself) and I used to be more obvious about it, in fact I was just plainly an asshole about it tbh. I also used to bully the bullies when I wasn't a midget held back by my genes on the long term , and for some reason bullies still manage to make friends..? Anyways, nowadays it's mostly the snowflakes that I trigger by being crude and by virtue of having my opinions, or simply the teachers with whom I butt heads (not so bad actually, currently there's only my assholish philosophy teacher, who might be an actual ILE but not sure). Depression and endless introspection has made me much more compassionate and kinda softer, and I'm actually grateful for that. I'm grateful that I can bring this gift into my relationships and apply its wisdom to myself.


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> Oh, I was going to add something about that, don't see LOADS of Ne but I think it makes sense that it's there, see reasonable amounts of Si as well...though there's the whole Si/sp confusion
> 
> why were you typing ESI>EII? can you relate to Se? or Ne?





Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet* I haven't seen enough of you on here to say for sure, but I could see Ne. You very much prefer things being open-ended and non...I guess strongly opinionated as in "X is Y, period. That's it, I am certain of it." That sort of thing - you are the complete opposite of that. I don't know if it speaks more to MBTI Ne or socionics, or perhaps both, but yeah. You have a very gentle presence and don't use Se even if the situation perhaps calls for it (I am the same way).


Thanks for input!

I went for ESI after discussing it with someone on discord who suggested ESI over EII due to seemingly 4D Si (which would mean 3D Se) and appearing to be Fi base. So rather than go for EII which has 2D Si, it would make more sense to go for ESI. Initially, I typed as SLI due to 4D Si/valued Fi and Te, but I've had many people tell me I don't seem to have 3D Te.

This description of the creative function's role is interesting:

* *






> Creative functionThe creative function is also called the *function of implementation*, *implementing*, *realizing*, or *second* function. This function describes the primary mode of application of the base function. If the base function forms the core of the individual's personal quests and interests (_"What's in it for me?"_, _"What do I want to be?"_), the creative function describes his main instrument for interacting with the rest of society (_"How do I make contact with other people?"_). For extroverts this means creating a context for people to interact within, and for introverts — creating a product worthy of being included in interaction.
> People use their creative function less than their base function and attach less personal significance to it, although due to the nature of blocked functions it is usually used in tandem with the base function. In their value system, their creative function activities seem less personally significant than their base function activities. When other people try to make this function the main criterion for everything, light irritation can arise, and the person may try to "correct" the other person's emphasis by presenting a perspective from his base function and suggesting that this is more important. Also, when other people express problems having to do with this information aspect, the person quickly takes interest and tries to present solutions — but always through his own base function. For instance, an SEE will try to help other people solve their  related problems (relationships and understanding between people) through a  perspective (making sure you know what you want and are trying to achieve it; understanding the territorial aspect of interaction; recognizing the obvious "dumb things" that people are doing that are ruining the relationship). When people get to use their creative function to help others' problems, they feel needed and fulfilled and begin to live more fully. Likewise, criticism in this area is more sensitive and unpleasant than in the base function.
> Use of the creative function — while frequent and effortless — seems to turn on and off. One moment the person may seem highly interested in this aspect, and the next — totally indifferent. This may jar people for whom this aspect of reality is of more supreme importance and who expect more consistent attention and effort in this area. A good example of this is one's interaction with their mirror partner; each person's leading function is subject to the other's creativity function, so even though both partners do share similar worldviews, they are apt to 'correct' or add on to the other's rigid and finalized points.





Unfortunately, the wikisocion description for creative Se is very short, so not as helpful as it might be.
I am curious about EII, especially the idea of 3D Ne/4D Ni. Do you think those functions fit into those roles?

Hm, I do have very strong opinions on things I care about, but if I don't really care too much, it's difficult for me to form an opinion because it means nothing and then I'm using my energy on something meaningless, if that makes sense. I wouldn't completely close my ears to people's views on the vast majority of topics, but there are some where I'm not interested in their opinion for various reasons (i.e. they're speaking from a position of ignorance and don't want to learn anything or they want to justify something I view as unjustifiable - in which case I won't necessarily just cut them off, but will persistently go on debating with them to refute all their points, but only if I have the energy/inclination to spend that much time on them). A minor example would be a guy on the bus, telling a foreign student to speak in English/complaining about 'all these foreigners' etc., and I asked him how many languages he spoke, then proceeded to go on at him for the entire bus journey until he decided to get off early. It just depends on the topic, I guess, but I'm not really worried by confrontation. I just only do it if I think it's necessary (which I may not accurately judge at times).


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Hm, I do have very strong opinions on things I care about, but if I don't really care too much, it's difficult for me to form an opinion because it means nothing and then I'm using my energy on something meaningless, if that makes sense. I wouldn't completely close my ears to people's views on the vast majority of topics, but there are some where I'm not interested in their opinion for various reasons (i.e. they're speaking from a position of ignorance and don't want to learn anything or they want to justify something I view as unjustifiable - in which case I won't necessarily just cut them off, but will persistently go on debating with them to refute all their points, but only if I have the energy/inclination to spend that much time on them). A minor example would be a guy on the bus, telling a foreign student to speak in English/complaining about 'all these foreigners' etc., and I asked him how many languages he spoke, then proceeded to go on at him for the entire bus journey until he decided to get off early. It just depends on the topic, I guess, but I'm not really worried by confrontation. I just only do it if I think it's necessary (which I may not accurately judge at times).


!!! that's fantastic, doesn't seem that Se PoLR to me, I can definitely see an ESI doing that
(I don't think I could ever start an argument with a bus person)

Do you relate to Ne PoLR? 

(I'm trying to figure out if that makes sense, I guess it could, but I have extremely limited ability to think right now so forgive this)


____________________________________

ENFP is right for me, right?



> If the base function forms the core of the individual's personal quests and interests ("What's in it for me?", "What do I want to be?")


I guess this is relatable, I guess I'm about possibilities and...trying different lives? but like:



> They enjoy discussing unusual insights into the nature of the world and crazy out-there ideas, like space elevators.


I'm annoyed just seeing the words 'space elevator', this is _not_ an interesting possibility for me, I don't really like unusual insights like that, or even better ones.



> Typical Ne quadra humor juxtaposes seemingly unrelated phenomena.


I HATE this kind of humor, I hate not knowing what's going on, I don't like Monty Python style 'you're laughing because it's so ridiculous and it never stops being ridiculous' things, always hated it in school when people would do that kind of thing, I just don't find it pleasing at all



> the creative function describes his main instrument for interacting with the rest of society ("How do I make contact with other people?").


It seems obvious that Fi would be this 



> People use their creative function less than their base function and attach less personal significance to it, although due to the nature of blocked functions it is usually used in tandem with the base function. In their value system, their creative function activities seem less personally significant than their base function activities.


I feel like Fi is more valuable to Ne than me



> When other people try to make this function the main criterion for everything, light irritation can arise, and the person may try to "correct" the other person's emphasis by presenting a perspective from his base function and suggesting that this is more important.





> Also, when other people express problems having to do with this information aspect, the person quickly takes interest and tries to present solutions — but always through his own base function.


 Trying to figure out if I do this, I guess I do 'have you tried?' when people have relationship problems but that's just the advice script



> When people get to use their creative function to help others' problems, they feel needed and fulfilled and begin to live more fully. Likewise, criticism in this area is more sensitive and unpleasant than in the base function.


??



> Use of the creative function — while frequent and effortless — seems to turn on and off. One moment the person may seem highly interested in this aspect, and the next — totally indifferent. This may jar people for whom this aspect of reality is of more supreme importance and who expect more consistent attention and effort in this area.


I think my Fi is always on?

Can anyone see EII?
Bus thing reminded me, I can be Se PoLRish, often I'm the one leaving buses early because someone talked to me
But people accuse me of using too much force as well, however PoLRish 'on' or 'off' could make sense for my Se, like I'm terrified of walking into restaurants and talking to people and starting things in many situations but sometimes I'll go overboard with it, aggressive about how people are behaving towards me 



> Fi as Leading *The individual sees reality primarily through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself*, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. not sure what this means I hate Socionics The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. If I know what this means, yes? *This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined.* I think I express myself stridently and people can see it as judgmental, often I'm sort-of joking and I forget to not If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. All my relationships with people are worth it, but maybe?His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth. I think I value some level of constancy in myself, I see myself as a very constant person, I am not very good at following my moral principles but I do...judge myself off of that, obviously* Fi in this position implies the ability to almost instantly recognize whether someone is a friend or an enemy, whether they are demonstrating good will or ill will, and whether they are drawn to or repelled by the individual.*if I don't know I wouldn't know but yeah


Bored and have to go to this horrible restaurant (the people are way too friendly and last night they forced me to sit a table away from the bar so I had nowhere to look so I couldn't even drink my wine normally because I didn't want to have to keep making eye contact, just kept my eyes glued to the book, I'm a mess of a human being but I do need to eat...)


----------



## ElectricSlime

On second thought, I think T type is a better fit. Still, kinda weird for an ILE to have once seriously considered becoming a NBA player when he was too young and retarded to understand how the world works. Also weird to like Beta literature and philosophy so much. And I find Alpha NTs to be quite socially eccentric (Einstein-like) and dirty and unkempt, something I don’t consider myself to be at all.

I’ll wait for Immolate’s input.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Agreed. Do you relate to that yourself ?


Yes, I mean part of the reason why I'm considering IxFJ is because it feels like it could be filtered through introversion or something but Fe is the only thing in the world that makes sense to me, or like the only function I can imagine like...using for it's own sake, hard to explain, everything seems like it exists for the sake of Fe, might be exaggerating a bit, don't think I focus on nothing but Fe, but that's still how I feel, not sure how else to describe it.
Like that description @mistakenforstranger posted I think yesterday, repeated a couple of times how everything is about relations for ExFJ and I can relate to that.
Like used to think it didn't even matter what I talked about as long as I was talking to someone (this forum made me so picky though), or like keep mentioning my Spanish class because it was so fun, it was like 1% about learning Spanish (even though I loved Spanish), 0.5% about getting a diploma and 98.5% people, like I had this one friend and we'd always come much earlier so we could talk and play hangman and stuff, we'd bring each other snacks to eat together, think she was probably an ESFJ, we just had fun all the time (and also played with teacher's nerves a bit :laughing
And that's almost every situation for me.

My mom (not sure of her type, used to think ENFP because she seems Ne and Fi to me and NP and she does seem serious compared to me, and not Se PoLR like INFP), we watch singing competition shows together and she always complains about judges being silly and just laughing, singing and dancing together and giving votes to everyone and doing stuff that's unrelated to what's going on, OR having personal arguments with each other and I almost feel personally offended when she does it lol 

Also I think I often misunderstand elitism, like...to me it seems like a game, like I assume people don't actually believe in those opinions or take them seriously, it just usually seems to run deeper than what I expect.
Or like you often say you butt heads with teachers because of opinions and stuff, for me it's hard to imagine, or like remember in high school I started ditching a lot last year and my teacher was like "Our little badass" every time she saw me :laughing: (because before that I was a good girl) , should be embarrassing but I felt proud of it for some reason, because I was her little badass :fox:
Think partly pride that she still liked me so much haha

When I was younger I used to feel like the most compatible person ever (even though I'm really, really not), like I _couldn't imagine_, I wasn't prepared for the possibility that someone might not like me for my personality or opinions or something, hard to explain what exactly I mean, like I knew I could be this and that but it all seemed so small, felt like I could get along with anyone for as long as they were open to me getting along with them, which I think is common for non 4 image types but I also associate it with Fe?

Don't really see myself as being defined by opinions at all or like...don't interact with the world like that, I'm not 'What do I think?', 'What does this person think?' or even 'What values does this person have?', more 'How does this person feel about me?', everything else is more subconscious and makes less sense to me. 
But could be head type/heart type difference too.

But I am conflict-y, my grandma values Si (I think SEI) and she never liked my temper and willfulness and such, always told me I needed to find a boyfriend because it seemed like I _craved_ to have someone to fight with, silly example but says a lot about me in a way, there are probably better and more recent ones.
Anger energizes me and I am not a gentle kind of Fe-ish person, actually both my grandma and mom often compare me to my now dead uncle who was probably SLE and 8 fixed, I'm not really like him but apparently our way of talking/tone as well as arguing is similar, I can be a bit rough even though I'm conscious of atmosphere and I'll even feel bad and try to make up for it at times but as soon as the other person starts getting aggressive it starts fueling my fire, as a child I sometimes purposely kept misunderstandings going even though I knew it was a misunderstanding and I could easily solve it :blushed:



> Does appreciating having a grunt partner to do the bloody math problems in your stead and fill out your taxes look like Ti seeking ? enguin:


Think it could? But again it could also just be normal, I'd probably just ignore my taxes and hope they'll ignore me back or something.



> I'd sooner see Si PoLR than Te PoLR personally.


How do you relate to Si PoLR?



> Speaking as a history nerd, can't quite deny that the coolest people were Se leads :sad: Even my current profile avatar from way back, Gilgamesh, as well as Jaime Lannister are SLEs. As is Oberyn Martell...


I don't know if I have any particular person as my Se inspiration 
Maybe Scarlett O'Hara if she's Se, always loved her and would like to play her.



> Well I think..? EIEs have Fi ignoring and lack the spontaneity of IEIs, which supposedly makes them uncomfortable at flirting for flirting's sake. Makes sense. IEIs are supposedly charming leeches lol.


Odd to see EIE as more shy but I guess it makes sense since they are completely in Fe?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Vixey said:


> So these are each type's most common expressions according to Katherine Fauvre
> View attachment 776521


:rolling::laughin::bored:

Wow. I just can't with the Fauvres. How does anyone in the Enneagram world take them seriously? 9 is hilarious. Be as nondescript as possible. And apparently 3s are so chiseled and polished, they have a square instead of a circle head. Good to know. 2 looks like it's going for that stalker/obsessive gf face...


* *


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> I feel like Fi is more valuable to Ne than me


But Fi _is_ more valuable, why would a FP find Ne to be more valuable? 
Especially 2?
Descriptions say weird things sometimes.

(I think ENFP is as ok as any other F type for you, N dom seems fine to me and can't really see Ni  )



> not sure what this means I hate Socionics


1D Ti! :cupcake:


----------



## Darkbloom

> When people get to use their creative function to help others' problems, they feel needed and fulfilled and begin to live more fully. Likewise, criticism in this area is more sensitive and unpleasant than in the base function.


This makes no sense to me


----------



## Paradigm

Vixey said:


> So these are each type's most common expressions according to Katherine Fauvre
> View attachment 776521


Shit, I'm a type 1. All my friends call me a Vulcan or Darth Vader anyway, might as well embrace it to the max.


...But why is type 3 the only square face?


----------



## Darkbloom

I'm on my phone, until this moment I was convinced that 3 one has eyeballs that stick out and look downwards, if that makes sense, spent hours trying to figure out what could be the meaning behind that and now I realized it's just small eyes, lashes and eyebrows.
Not huge bulging eyeballs.
:laughing:
(l saw eyebrows as like upper edge of the eye, lashes as veins and black round part as just pupils, but it's actually supposed to represent the entire eye in this case)


----------



## Dangerose

.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> Shit, I'm a type 1. All my friends call me a Vulcan or Darth Vader anyway, might as well embrace it to the max.
> 
> 
> ...But why is type 3 the only square face?


1 was also the one I related to the most (not to say that I relate all that much either). Maybe it's 6 stuff.

Speaking of which, why the hell are there 4 different Sixes ?


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> 1 was also the one I related to the most (not to say that I relate all that much either). Maybe it's 6 stuff.
> 
> Speaking of which, why the hell are there 4 different Sixes ?


Because other types are all the same always and everyone's a 6 and 6 can be anything, very contradictory type, unlike other types who are all the same and have same facial expressions and always make sense and have no contradictory feelings and desires, so you need to have one for every kind of 6 and for every unpredictable mood a 6 can have.
Hope it makes sense now! 


* *




joking, if it's not already clear, but I think that was actually her reasoning!



_______
:sleepytime:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Because other types are all the same always and everyone's a 6 and 6 can be anything, very contradictory type, unlike other types who are all the same and have same facial expressions and always make sense and have no contradictory feelings and desires, so you need to have one for every kind of 6 and for every unpredictable mood a 6 can have.
> Hope it makes sense now!
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joking, if it's not already clear, but I think that was actually her reasoning!
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> :sleepytime:


I change my mind, Ti dom for you :wink:


----------



## mp2

I'm curious, how do people here relate to their ignoring and role functions in Socionics? How do you see these functions manifest in your life or in others? The other functions seem easy enough to understand from what I've gathered, but these are the two I'm still confused about and have a hard time placing in myself or seeing in others.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> 1 was also the one I related to the most (not to say that I relate all that much either). Maybe it's 6 stuff.


Upon review, I'm legit afraid she really _was _trying to go for the "1w9 Vulcan" stereotypical expression. (Spock, ofc, because no other Vulcan exists.)

I don't really think it's a 6 thing as much as a "your drawings kind of suck" thing.



> Speaking of which, why the hell are there 4 different Sixes ?


My question is, why the hell do all the 6s (and 8) look like they're in the process of taking a suppository?

It's possible she was talking about 6s whenever that photo was taken. Idk, nor care much. Their stuff is... really freaking dodgy, at best.


----------



## mp2

I was thinking I had to be some sort of SEI or ESE recently because of Fe, or maybe some sort of EII or IEE, but I think that's only because I've become interested in the theory recently and I've really lost my edge. Fe is some sort of developing nuisance that's only developed more as I've gotten older, and before that I was perfectly fine with lower Fe. Developing Fe is doing nothing but holding me back and harming myself :frustrating: 

So, while still possible, it seems unlikely I'm either LII or LSI. It's clear I'm Fe seeking, and mobilizing Fe makes the most sense. So, some sort of XLE, but I can't tell which one :frustrating:


----------



## ElectricSlime

mp2 said:


> I was thinking I had to be some sort of SEI or ESE recently because of Fe, or maybe some sort of EII or IEE, but I think that's only because I've become interested in the theory recently and I've really lost my edge. Fe is some sort of developing nuisance that's only developed more as I've gotten older, and before that I was perfectly fine with lower Fe. Developing Fe is doing nothing but holding me back and harming myself :frustrating:
> 
> So, while still possible, it seems unlikely I'm either LII or LSI. It's clear I'm Fe seeking, and mobilizing Fe makes the most sense. So, some sort of XLE, but I can't tell which one :frustrating:


Do I have to explain why the chances of you being SLE are 0% ?

I’ll let others chime in with their own opinion but mine is still the same: SEI overidentifying with his Ti HA.


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> Do I have to explain why the chances of you being SLE are 0% ?
> 
> I’ll let others chime in with their own opinion but mine is still the same: SEI overidentifying with his Ti HA.


Sure, if you want to, but I do admit the chances of me being SLE are 5% at the most, which is great enough to at least consider. I would definitely be an ESE before SEI. 

And do I have to explain why the chances of you being an Alpha NT are 0%? :kitteh:

I only know what I've seen from you on this thread, but I think you're probably IEE. If not that, then a young, confused NT Gamma.


----------



## ElectricSlime

mp2 said:


> And do I have to explain why the chances of you being an Alpha NT are 0%? :kitteh:


Oh that makes me curious actually, sure, take your shot. I’ve been questioning it myself. Although 0% in this case seems excessive, as it would imply that I have no Ne nor Ti whatsoever lol. What do YOU think I am ?


----------



## ElectricSlime

mp2 said:


> I only know what I've seen from you on this thread, but I think you're probably IEE. If not that, then a young, confused NT Gamma.


Ti PoLR, fucking seriously ? And Delta too ? So you think I’m a Serious type then ?

Mind making a case somewhat ? Like one paragraph (though more is always better).

Anyone else supporting that opinion ?


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> Oh that makes me curious actually, sure, take your shot. I’ve been questioning it myself. Although 0% in this case seems excessive, as it would imply that I have no Ne nor Ti whatsoever lol. What do YOU think I am ?


Oh yes, I admit I was being snotty/silly with the use of 0% here based on your use of 0%(which, is probably correct in regards to me being SLE) :blushed: If I were to give a serious percentage to you being an Alpha NT I would say more 45%-ish. 

I say that mostly in the was that IEE's and ILE's can mimic each other in a lot of ways. IEE's can be very thinker-ish and ILE's can be very feeler-ish, which I think causes a lot of confusion when people try to type themselves or type others. I don't know how old you are, but I get you idea you're somewhere between late teens-early 20's? I think the idea of IEEs and ILEs mimicking each other is more pronounced at that age, but it can continue on to any point at life. I think Steve Jobs was IEE, even though he's often typed as ILE or LIE, but to me he's a clear IEE. 

I think you _could_ be an Alpha NT, but I would guess LII over ILE. My best guess would be that you're an intelligent, thoughtful IEE that's balanced between Fi/Te. If not that, you're an ILI or LIE that's yet to realize how Te-ish you are, which I think would be common path for many high Te users. 

I could be speaking out of my ass here and I admit I could be full of shit, but I'm just going by my understanding of theory and what I've seen from your posts and how bizarrely similar you seem to IEEs and LIEs I've known for years. 

Probably not Ti PoLR then. Probably LIE


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> Ti PoLR, fucking seriously ? And Delta too ? So you think I’m a Serious type then ?
> 
> Mind making a case somewhat ? Like one paragraph (though more is always better).
> 
> Anyone else supporting that opinion ?


Also, you haven't done a single thing to make a case with a single paragraph with your typings of me, other than the fact that I'm not a Greek Philosopher or that I don't throw pajama parties. To be fair, these are the types of arguments one would expect from a 1D Ti type. I'm not saying you are a 1D Ti type, because you probably aren't, just that those are 1D Ti arguments.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@mp2

1. But if you say ILE and IEE can be very similar, on what criteria do you put me as IEE then ? I’ve shared a lot of personal stuff here, and I think it’s pretty clear that my blunders would fit better with Fi poLR than with Ti PoLR. Especially considering how I can’t seem to shake off people telling me how sexy my Ti and Te are here. Also me just bitching about Delta values all the time.

2. If I’m LIE, how come I’m so lazy when their program is “productivity” ? I wish I could be like that. How is ESI my dual ?

3. I’m too charismatic to be a LII, fuck off. They’re too soft and polite, and awkward. And the bloody Ij temperament..

4. If what you really mean is that I’m not in your quadra, then I can just take the next train to Beta.


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> This goes back to the point about Fe-Si being the "feel good" Fe and Fe Se being the more dramatic and darker one.


By your definition, I wouldn't be Fe-Si then because I've seemed to have a history of finding that kind of thing bland and uninteresting. My ENFP friend seems to have more of a tolerance for those types than I do with some of his friends and acquaintances. 

They're just so… sweaters and infinity scarves and bible verses in their Instagram bios and smiley pictures and blond and blue-eyed wholesomeness. I hate "wholesome". They're so unremarkable, ordinary, and "basic"-looking. The kind of people I couldn't see myself being friends with. I've had to remind myself at times that there's nothing wrong with being like that, but… it's just not for me. The school I'm planning on going to seems to be filled with these types, so I'm going to have to learn to warm up to it.

My first choice for a school was very, very stereotypically SP. A stereotypical student at that school doesn't look anything like the people I just described. Instead they're usually the types who try to basically be Instagram models and have a more urban and I guess "hip" look... and they're definitely not wholesome. I might make fun of them occasionally but I would prefer an environment with those kind of people to an environment with the other kind of people I described. 



ElectricSlime said:


> A Beta NF that wouldn't like art :shocked:


I like photography, film, music, but I don't like visual art. It's just pretty pictures to me. It doesn't do anything for me so it just feels useless. It's really subjective and can yield all these different interpretations to different people and I feel disinterested in that kind of thing.

Music is more appealing because it has more objective expression of emotion to me. (Plus who doesn't like music?) 

And the way I tend to go about films is I'm very into knowing what the director and the actors are saying about the film and its characters. I like taking everything they're saying and using it as evidence that builds up into this singular answer as to what it all means, how the characters should be interpreted, etc. Plus the hype around a film can be enjoyable and I like to keep up with the marketing campaigns.

Clothing is somewhere that I had a history of seeming more "artsy" with and that's because it's useful to me. It communicates. I definitely think of outward impact with it, how I want to be perceived. That doesn't mean that it's not self-expressive - if anything I feel like that's more me than just sitting around in pajamas.

Parts of this might have something to do with this:



> [The EIE] can only enjoy visceral contact with reality if it is accompanied by an active will to initiate such contact, to intentionally engage it.





ElectricSlime said:


> You're such a SO dom


Yeah, probably. I guess there has to be a So-dom around here. They feel a little unrepresented. 



ElectricSlime said:


> Democratic quadra over Aristocratic perhaps ? It's a bit easy of a judgement tho, so I wouldn't put much stock into it. Especially cause I can find points for in myself for both depending on the day.


Yeah, I wasn't putting stock into it either. Just noting that I can evaluate things by a case-by-case basis at times. 



ElectricSlime said:


> Anything's possible, but my Si sucks, that I'm certain of. If there's one thing I relate to better about Fi than Fe it's the part about preferring smaller and more intimate groups for parties. Big rowdy stuff with flashing neon light, strangers on speed puking in the corner and people humping each other was never my cup of tea. (I'm caricaturing, but the the sole fact that I am should speak volumes about my opinion on the matter)


And I would relate to the opposite (I think?). Which kinda sucks considering I come from a more rural environment where smaller, more intimate events is basically the only option. And the college I'm going to is going to be more like that. While the school that was my first choice that I currently can't go to is, again, more like the opposite. lol I'm just bumming myself out now… 

Million dollar question: If you had a choice, would you rather put up with wholesome infinity scarf-wearers or the wannabe Instagram model types? 



mp2 said:


> but I do admit the chances of me being SLE are 5% at the most, which is great enough to at least consider.


lol is this how Ne-users think? I literally never think like this. What even are multiple possibilities? Obviously not a thing in my world. 

inb4 @ElectricSlime pops in all upset trying to correct me on my perceptions of Ne again. :laughing:



ElectricSlime said:


> Anyone else supporting that opinion ?


My socionics noob self was somewhat considering Delta for you, but not that seriously. More or less because I figured if you weren't finding a fit with Alpha or Beta, then maybe the solution was to look elsewhere. Don't expect me to have much of a case for it.


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> @mp2
> 
> 1. But if you say ILE and IEE can be very similar, on what criteria do you put me as IEE then ? I’ve shared a lot of personal stuff here, and I think it’s pretty clear that my blunders would fit better with Fi poLR than with Ti PoLR. Especially considering how I can’t seem to shake off people telling me how sexy my Ti and Te are here. Also me just bitching about Delta values all the time.


I think the blunders of Fi PoLR and Ti PoLR are difficult to pin down and too easy to latch on to. It's easy to say "I'm such an insensitive asshole must be the PoLR Fi lulz" and then everyone can agree and laugh along with it. I'm not saying this about you, but just speaking in general. While it can be easy for an IEE to mimic PoLR Fi due to their Fi and Te, in that if an IEE has the slightest idea they're a Ti-Fe user, which doesn't appear to be that uncommon, it's easy to attribute the harsh nature of overactive seeking Te to PoLR Fi. I'd say the opposite is true for ILEs also. 



> 2. If I’m LIE, how come I’m so lazy when their program is “productivity” ? I wish I could be like that. How is ESI my dual ?


Any type can be lazy. This seems like you're taking the descriptions too literally and forgetting just how much the types can vary. There's a reason any description you can find uses words like "typically", "often", and "likely". They're just vague, general guidelines that vary quite a bit based on human nature. There's nothing radical about the idea of a lazy, socially introverted, and disorganized LIE. I would say ESI is your dual if you are in fact a LIE. :tongue: 



> 3. I’m too charismatic to be a LII, fuck off. They’re too soft and polite, and awkward. And the bloody Ij temperament.


Same thing as above. LII's can be extremely charismatic, even if it does happen to be rare, which I don't think it is. Maybe many of them are soft, polite, and awkward, but there's nothing that says a LII can't be extremely charismatic and sociable. I don't think you are LII though because you appear to value Te and Fi. 



> 4. If what you really mean is that I’m not in your quadra, then I can just take the next train to Beta.


No, that's not what I mean at all. We could be in the same quadra. Hell, we could be the same type, as different as we appear to be. People in the same quadra or in the same type can vary quite a bit. I don't even think about types in those terms, honestly. I was just speaking based on what I've seen from you here, what I've seen from people I know well of different types, and what I understand of the theory. 

I think even the way you approach the whole theory with your four points above appears to be more Te/Fi than Ti/Fe. You're so concerned with external sources and external definitions and you don't appear interested in developing your own logical systems or understanding others' logical systems. The way you readily suggest that others should look up information themselves, without asking if they have, instead of asking for input from people on a forum with people that have been interested in the theory for years, people that may possibly have more insight into personality theory that isn't available anywhere else, because, you know, individual people can have greater insight without writing a book or having their own website, all suggests that you're either leading Te or creative Te, and very possibly IEE. I _could_ go back and find quotes to support these if you really wanted, but I'm way too lazy and really don't care enough to do all that :mellow:

To be clear, I'm not attacking you here or anything, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing and I think you're a very intelligent and insightful person, just an intelligent/insightful IEE or LIE/ILI :kitteh:

*Edit:* For the sake of clarity, it is very possible that I'm sort of IEE(or EII) confusing Fi/Te with Ti/Fe in myself in the same way, which may be why I'm able to spot the same potential in others :thinking:


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> !!! that's fantastic, doesn't seem that Se PoLR to me, I can definitely see an ESI doing that
> (I don't think I could ever start an argument with a bus person)
> 
> Do you relate to Ne PoLR?
> 
> (I'm trying to figure out if that makes sense, I guess it could, but I have extremely limited ability to think right now so forgive this)


Haha, thanks  I don't massively relate to any PoLR (aside from Fe, which was another reason I typed SLI). I was trying to use PoLR and the idea of 'seeking' the suggestive function to help with typing, but yeah, I don't really seek anything particular out in others except for a good connection. (This is probably very unhelpful.)



> ENFP is right for me, right?


Hmm, I always thought you came across as more ESE. I wouldn't have thought Fi base because Fi or Ti first tends to be more 'rigid', if that makes sense. How come you decided on IEE?


----------



## Greyhart

Alpha SFs are perfectly capable of being modern, progressive, cool, and interesting.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Alpha SFs are perfectly capable of being modern, progressive, cool, and interesting.


stop lying 

(still not able)


----------



## Darkbloom

me said:


> Feel so...idk either like someone could jump in front of me any second and make me study something, or like I must relax for as much as possible now because it could be my last time lol, so I can't really get into anything because everything makes time go faster and like...idk
> (wasn't really like this before though)
> 
> Reminds me how when I was younger I often wanted last days of holidays or like visiting my mom and such to be as boring as possible so they could last longer and so I could like...be aware of every moment (but also don't like doing anything on days like that because it's sad, I'd rather just think about it and cry and leave fun things for better days with other good days ahead of me), feel a bit like that now too, suddenly relate a bit more to that socionics thing I said I couldn't relate to.
> Like hate committing to writing some post when I know it always takes longer than I expected and it feels like giving my time away to something that's outside of myself, I want it to be only mine even if it ends up killing me.
> 
> Also, reminds me, think I'm addicted to boredom, like I hate it but if I'm not bored I feel like I don't have enough time and I just need it.





me responding to my post said:


> Think this could be related to one of those dichotomies,not sure which one.
> I just realized, this is actually what I see as an example of my bad Si I think?
> Like someone would say "I'm so stressed out, I can't even relax!" or something and I'm using the word 'relax' in a weird way because it's funny but might be fitting, wondering if it's the right word because it's new to me,and just describing the whole situation like this, like...avoiding to think in Si terms almost even though I can see it as being a Si-ish thing for someone else?
> If that makes sense?


Remember it making more sense than it seems to now lol, but still do you guys think this could be related to Si PoLR in some way?
Like having a hard time processing Si-ish things and finding weird explanations for them all the time?
Or is that completely off?
Just don't relate to forgetting to eat, wearing sandals in winter and not knowing cancer is bad kind of Si PoLR but on some level it still clicks.

In a way also sounds bad Ni??
Or good, don't have a clue what kind of Ni it sounds like.
But I know my mom doesn't like how I'm obsessed with counting days and such, similar to my grandma (think ESE), like I say things like "I leave in 8 days ", day later "I leave in 7 days ((", "Next monday at this time I'll be on my way home :sad: "


----------



## ElectricSlime

I find the notion of me being IEE over ILE ludicrous, as even assuming I am ILE, I identify better with Ti subtype and SLE than IEE. 

Gamma NT is more sensible, although I don’t think I am one. 

Urgh, stuck at work and without access to a computer, I’ll address the whole thing tonight~


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> I find the notion of me being IEE over ILE ludicrous, as even assuming I am ILE, I identify better with Ti subtype and SLE than IEE.
> 
> Gamma NT is more sensible, although I don’t think I am one.
> 
> Urgh, stuck at work and without access to a computer, I’ll address the whole thing tonight~


No way you're IEE imo


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> No way you're IEE imo


If I am IEE, be a SLI so we can be dualz 

Fe lead in the streets, Fe PoLR in the sheets !


----------



## Dangerose

my hotel doesn't have internet :frustrating: which I'm really getting sick of, so it's super annoying to respond to posts, just on my 2gs :angry:

and it makes me lazier in responding as well as I'm just not having as much fun



owlet said:


> Haha, thanks  I don't massively relate to any PoLR (aside from Fe, which was another reason I typed SLI). I was trying to use PoLR and the idea of 'seeking' the suggestive function to help with typing, but yeah, I don't really seek anything particular out in others except for a good connection. (This is probably very unhelpful.)
> 
> 
> Hmm, I always thought you came across as more ESE. I wouldn't have thought Fi base because Fi or Ti first tends to be more 'rigid', if that makes sense. How come you decided on IEE?


ESE, hm, I did used to type as ESFJ back in the day, typed exclusively as Fe-dom for a long time and most people thought ESFJ > ENFJ iirc, when I moved to socionics it start to feel weird

Like Fe-dom seems fine, even if I'm the opposite of Fe 2 in reality ahaha, and idk I liked the idea of being the 'shallow' Fe-dom as well (not that ESFJ is shallow or that I think of myself that way but I enjoyed image of myself as some sort of queen of garden parties), Ni-Se axis seems ultimately wrong and I never understood what Ni was supposed to be about. Si creative feels odd...feel like I'm classically bad at Si but I've talked about this before...Ne HA doesn't seem right I think, tend to be more annoyed than otherwise at gratuitous Ne-ness (I like Ne...but with dignity) though I once explained it like 'I'm always looking to draw new experiences into my band of experiences' or something like that, like I'm a collector...I'm not sure about Ni PoLR, feel like I have a good intuition of time compared to other people, I have extremely poor intuition of space though

Alpha quadra is unrelatable to me (in fairness I think the descriptions are probably faulted), except that I do enjoy a convivial atmosphere and suchlike but...alphas can be confusing, often feel irl like there's some coded thing I'm supposed to be doing that I don't know about, so I'm not sure on that front, and I'd honestly have to look it up but it is painful to google on this internet connection, many of the dichotomies don't work

Why ESE though?

ENFP seems...dominant Ne is ok, Si seeking is fair enough, creative Fi ok and not sure about Te HA but Ti PoLR isn't crazy.

I think you're right about Fi dominance, I'm not very restrained. INFPs tend to strike me as very elegant, like they are controlling every movement and word that passes their lips...and I give off a 'messier' and I think more lost impression


----------



## Asd456

Confident that I'm 6w5 Sx/Sp, ENTJ and LIE but I'm open to critique/feedback if people think otherwise.
@owlet Have you considered IEI? I don't have a detailed analysis for you, just my general impression from reading some of your posts here. I see more Ni and Ti, don't really see any Te and regarding Fi base, if you're IEI your Fi is demonstrative and 4D so could explain why it's strong. Can't comment on the ESI over EII due to 4D Si, that wasn't my impression.


----------



## Greyhart

Activating function

The activating function is also called the hidden agenda (HA), or the sixth function. Help in this element is appreciated, but *past a certain point is seen as excessive*. The subject is more comfortable using this function than the suggestive function but still can only use it sporadically. If he isn't careful and directs it at an individual who does not value it, he will likely meet a harsh response, since they are almost sure to see it as a puerile gesture (more so than when he uses the suggestive function, usage of which comes off as more mature and well-considered, since he takes it more seriously in the first place). The subject's innate lack of balance in the mobilizing function can easily cause him to indulge in it recklessly or to sorely neglect it. It is best used in support of the suggestive function.

*If too much of this element is ambient, the person will get bored or even become repelled. He sees it as a necessary part of good living, but not a primary life goal.*



Immolate said:


> stop lying
> 
> (still not able)


∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿


----------



## Darkbloom

Ni and Ne are such uninteresting functions to me, always want to say something about them but then I realize I don't really care 
Does that mean I have bad Ni and Ne or so good that I can't even put it into words and like...I'm already in them, boring to talk about it? 
But really no clue what to say about my Ni and have many Si related examples be it positive, negative or neutral, probably means something.
It's actually one of my favorite functions?
But not like SJ Si I think, non basic Si-ish things and like...nostalgia and such, that's not Si I know but I think about smells and tastes and such so much and could probably spend 5 hours every day swatching makeup and smelling creams and perfumes.
(thought it was EIE before but tbh I thought everything was EIE so)

Thanks @mistakenforstranger and @nep2une , thinking about ESE :strawberry:
(very surprising suggestion though, not sure where to start)
Wonder what a so last ESE would be like.

Want to reread everything and respond to more things but had 7 hours of math today so :crazy:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> @electric Slime yeah, people tell me about the messiness/scatterbrainedness on here a lot
> 
> I think for some reason I use a lot of clauses separated by only commas which contributes to that impression, maybe because I am trying to imitate speech, or maybe it's that I see Internet interaction as more like being in a room - when I might say anything that comes into my head - than a newspaper (I was talking to a friend about this and she views it more like a newspaper - I'm certainly not following a thesis+supporting points+conclusion format
> 
> And I guess, I always find it difficult to express myself without tracing where the thought came from, however! I wonder if this is related to static/dynamic dichotomy, which would lean me towards EIE
> 
> (Used to think I was static because I find it easier to understand still pictures than moving images, but no kidding, everyone knows what a ball is before they know about kinesthetic energy)
> 
> in real life I'm not sure...I know I come across like I don't know where any objects I possess are, because I don't, I don't track those things well, so I come across forgetful and such for that, and I feel like, EIEs, you can see them controlling the room's energy or something, I feel like I do try to affect the room's atmosphere but in more of an undercover way, like people would think I was doing the opposite of what I'm doing, feel like I'm often...trying to make something less awkward for someone, for instance, but obviously I don't want to come off like that's what I'm doing, so I do things that make people think I'm idiotic, but it's not like I'm a conductor with power flowing evenly out of me
> 
> Do wonder if it could be Ni, I'm very...strategic in a sense, like that thing above, often do things that have a number of steps that make sense to me but other people will question if they get the opportunity, for the simplest example if I'm doing some chore that will take ~five minutes I'll start the tea kettle boiling beforehand therefore the water will be done when I'm done with the chore, of course everyone would do something like that but I will get people questioning that, 'aren't you about to do X though?' but it goes beyond the tea, feels like it could b an intuition of time thing??
> 
> (will talk about other people too, later )


The tea kettle mastermind, playing 3D chess with the boiling while us rogue peasants are playing checkers. We can make that your epitaph :wink: 

But seriously, doubt it’s function related.


----------



## Darkbloom

But most of my Si stuff is like...I _love_ doing it, there's definitely active will and some kind of excitement involved, could it be related to this?


> He can only enjoy visceral contact with reality if it is accompanied by an active will to initiate such contact, to intentionally engage it.


Or like I often purposely open the windows at night so a blanket could make me feel warm, like to feel cold so I could actually appreciate warmth and not just feel comfortable.
Do that kind of thing often.

But don't like some kinds of contact with physical reality when it's like...idk, I guess it has to come from me so might be PoLR thing?
Si-ish stuff can annoy me if others put too much emphasis on them in annoying kind of way.


----------



## Asd456

Tad Cooper said:


> I wonder though, don't the majority humans seem to need support (as you said it works for all types) - with 6s is it an excessive need or just a major focus? i.e. is X reliable enough for me to depend on?


I can see support manifest in a way that's a focus of attention, so as a 6 I'm more skeptical and against it because I trust myself more. I pay attention to power dynamics, and am naturally against/skeptical of it. I don't really need support and I'm not that loyal, for me it's more about certainty and accuracy. 



owlet said:


> I'm curious about an argument for IEI.


I haven't been following this thread closely so again I don't have a detailed analysis for you which is my interpretation of an argument but I'll respond to your points, add relevant comments, etc.



owlet said:


> I haven't really considered it because I tend to have trouble with the emotional atmosphere, or at least it takes a backseat to other things the vast majority of the time (it's also the reason SEI doesn't fit).


It should take a backseat, because IEI's Fe is creative. Similar to how my Ni takes a backseat to my Te. 

SEI I wouldn't really consider, as that would mean lead Si. 

As for having trouble with the emotional atmosphere, this sounds like lead Fe. Even if you have trouble with the emotional atmosphere, do you still pay attention to it?

Found this description of IEI's creative Fe, see if you relate:



> For the IEI, this takes a longer-term perspective; so the focus, rather than being on the immediate emotional environment, is on the perceived longer-term emotional state of others towards the individual, and is reflected in trying to be on good terms with those he interacts with or seeking distance or protection from, or "preventively" attacking, those he sees as irremediably hostile emotionally.





owlet said:


> I do relate to Ni base in many ways, but I'm also a naturally very withdrawn, 'in my head' kind of person which can throw it off, I think.


Why do you think so? Ni is still a perceiving/observing function, especially if it's Ni base. I think Ni is compatible with being withdrawn and in your head.


----------



## Wisteria

Could it be more than a coincidence that no one is getting typed as an S-type, and most of the types I see are ones that are leading with a rational (F/T) function?

In a thread like this where enneagram is the main topic of discussion, it's harder to guess sociotypes because some of the IEs might not show. from what I've noticed online, Si and Ni base are the most subtle - with Ni base types I don't always see Ni in them, because they simply don't discuss it that much. I don't really talk about anything Si related in typology related threads either. 




Tad Cooper said:


> Hmm yeah I'd say 1s are more likely to act if their idea of right and wrong is disrupted, and 8s would act with justice/injustice maybe - maybe both types would react but just differently? 8s trying to remove it and 1s trying to fix it?
> 
> Ah so you don't like doing stuff you consider pointless, or you can't see the reasoning for? I'd say that would be apparent in a few people generally, but the motivation could lead to type i.e. what exactly was it that bothered you and why?
> 
> Haha I definitely relate! I can't understand people doing things any old way or without principles - I cant imagine not having principles or going against them. I guess Id go against them for a really good reason but apart form that no...
> 
> Yeah the tritype does confuse things a lot. The main thing is to focus on the strongest, core values and motivations/fears rather than all of them I think!
> 
> No worries, glad it helped! I tend to use that sort of information a lot, it's helpful when you get confused!


Yeah motivations (and fears) are more indicative of the types. I guess all types will take action to the injustices that they see but for different reasons? Perhaps the source of 1s and 8s anger is different as well, and how they see anger too. 8s want to embody it, 1s avoid it because it's wrong and it can get the better of them. 

It's not that I avoid doing things that are pointless (its something i don't think about much actually, I just do what I feel like doing in the moment) but rather when I see a situation or someone i disagree with but literally cant do anything about - perhaps this is to avoid unnecessary conflict (which is why i chose the 9 wing!) and so I just do nothing and remain frustrated about it instead, and wonder to myself why the person has these flaws, or why a situation has gone wrong.

lol yeah, it was a pretty bad example actually :blushed: just found it bizarre to not follow the procedure when literally everyone else there was! 1s see reality and people as inherently flawed, including themselves. I think this is why I get bothered by small things, I can't help but notice flaws.

true, I guess everyone finds an enneagram type that stands out to them, which probably means it's the core type.



Tad Cooper said:


> Hmm thats odd because I think 2 is one I relate to least overall, along with 9!
> What do you mean by core fears?


 which ones do you relate to most?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Yeah, I don't really experience Ne as coming up with random shit (though it's possible I come across as random sometimes, as I don't always know how to explain connections my brain is making). Like there's this aspect of being open to all possibilities, but not all of them are equally interesting, or likely, and ultimately there's this search for the ultimate potential in things. Then again, I'm not a Ne-dom so my experience of it is biased by other things.


----------



## Wisteria

Asd456 said:


> Why do you think so? Ni is still a perceiving/observing function, especially if it's Ni base. I think Ni is compatible with being withdrawn and in your head.


Ni descriptions can be associated with an introverted nature in general. It's described in such a way that any introverted or withdrawn person can easily relate to, so I don't think its compatible with Ni.

edit: think I need to elaborate on this more, so here's some examples;



wikisocion said:


> Ni as a base (1st) function (IEI and ILI)
> As a base function, Ni generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity...





> Se as a suggestive (5th) function (IEI and ILI)
> The individual is often characterized by his inertia. If left to his own devices, he may choose to do relatively little to interact with the outside world. When he does interact with the outside world, he often finds his activities to be empty and unfulfilling. To this individual, life is often characterized by periods of stimulation. For him, however, true stimulation is often spontaneous, and interludes between periods of stimulation are often characterized by tedium, inertia, and apathy. He is often not very adept at finding new areas of interest,


I can actually relate to this as an Si base. 
_"He is often not very adept at finding new areas of interest"_ - this is how I relate to Ne as a dual seeking function - I rely on others for finding new interests and exploring possibilities, something that helps me break out of my routine and sense of familiarity. 

(Se dual seeking is different, so looking at this function and how you relate to your dual is a useful way of identifying the base function.)


----------



## Darkbloom

Or like always envied babies in strollers in winter, it just looks so great and cozy to like just be lying there wrapped up in a blanket while it's cold outside or have someone carry you, obviously anyone would think it's a great thing but do EIEs naturally think like that?
Or like remember having daydreams that are really hard to explain that involved warm clothes, like it wasn't just about that but like...I used to daydream about sweaters is the point, is that Si PoLR?


edit: :laughing:

edit 2: often actually like see a person that looks like their Si isn't or shouldn't be happy and I feel really bad for them on visceral level, can't think of a good example right now


----------



## Greyhart

Vixey said:


> Ni and Ne are such uninteresting functions to me, always want to say something about them but then I realize I don't really care
> Does that mean* I have bad Ni and Ne *or so good that I can't even put it into words and like...I'm already in them, boring to talk about it?


Yes.


> But really no clue what to say about my Ni and have many Si related examples be it positive, negative or neutral, probably means something.
> It's actually one of my favorite functions?
> But not like SJ Si I think, non basic Si-ish things and like...nostalgia and such, that's not Si I know *but I think about smells and tastes and such so much and could probably spend 5 hours every day swatching makeup and smelling creams and perfumes.*
> (thought it was EIE before but tbh I thought everything was EIE so)


Not limited to but included in what is Si.


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Or like always envied babies in strollers in winter, it just looks so great and cozy to like just be lying there wrapped up in a blanket while it's cold outside or have someone carry you, *obviously anyone would think it's a great thing* but do EIEs naturally think like that?


:laughing: not obvious :laughing:

If I imagine being a baby in a stroller I feel tense and annoyed
I can get this way when I'm sick though, get really obsessive about finding tea and just think about beds and such



> Or like remember having daydreams that are really hard to explain that involved warm clothes, like it wasn't just about that but like...I used to daydream about sweaters is the point, is that Si PoLR?


I thiiink probably not?
ESE seems a little...would Ne HA make any sense?? could probably see SEI before it



> edit 2: often actually like see a person that looks like their Si isn't or shouldn't be happy and I feel really bad for them on visceral level, can't think of a good example right now


I don't get this and this is something that confuses me about people, it's so strange to me when people are like 'bet your feet are cold!' because the energy to even think about one's own feet, applied to a whole 'nother person, boggles my mind that someone could even think of that, I never think about other people's feet not ever



Vixey said:


> But really no clue what to say about my Ni and have many Si related examples be it positive, negative or neutral, probably means something.


I was just going to mention that actually



> But not like SJ Si I think, non basic Si-ish things and like...nostalgia and such, that's not Si I know but I think about smells and tastes and such so much and could probably spend 5 hours every day swatching makeup and smelling creams and perfumes.


hm similarly to stroller thing reading that sentence makes me want to punch something, I do really like some smells and I'll go somewhat out of my way for smells and I love how they evoke memories :lovekitty: can spend some time in perfume store smelling things but it will stress me out after a while I guess

And never understood people enjoying make-up, I do it as quickly as possible while doing something else, and in stages while I get dressed (which probably explains why my make-up is on average slightly sub-par)

And buying make-up and that kind of thing, I don't have the patience to really figure out what matches my skin, just buy stuff and figure it'll work out more or less, but I don't know it's like really frustrating, have a friend who really likes doing these things, we'll go to stores together and the lady will be like 'here try this lip cleanser' and she's like 'oooh, that's really nice' and it just makes me :angry: 


ElectricSlime said:


> The tea kettle mastermind, playing 3D chess with the boiling while us rogue peasants are playing checkers. We can make that your epitaph :wink:
> 
> But seriously, doubt it’s function related.


I did say most people would do the tea kettle thing))
I think it would be sort-of, not sure if I explained correctly, but I guess I don't know what, but it's notable about me I think and it feels cognitive


----------



## Tad Cooper

Paradigm said:


> It's not exactly like the 6 needs or wants support _more than_ other types, it's more like a 6 is more prone to question the support system(s) more than the other types. And like a record repeating itself, that takes us back to the 6 focus on trust and their worries about where and when and how (...and what and who...) to place it.
> 
> It's not really the One Big Thing about 6s - everyone can fear losing people, right? - but it's something else observable that can maybe clue you in on the underlying motivations.


Thanks, that helped clear things up a lot  Very helpful! Same with the other types too I'd assume? (Not one big thing but something to look out for)


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> Ahh okay, in that case probably not.
> Core fears are the ones listed as such in the descriptions, like on enneagram institute. (Unless I misunderstood what you're asking?)


Ahh I think I know them, I'll have a read through, thanks!


----------



## Dangerose

actually I think I like getting sick because I become hyper-aware of Si

Like the other month I suddenly got really sick and I just had a fever and everything hurt, just existing kinda hurt and then moving, I was so tired and miserable but also like...really happy, my bed was so comfortable and warmth was so great and when things didn't hurt it was fun and there was an enjoyable novelty to things hurting, it was like I got the most of the world, I was both relieved and disappointed when I got better


----------



## Asd456

Wisteria said:


> Ni descriptions can be associated with an introverted nature in general. It's described in such a way that any introverted or withdrawn person can easily relate to, so I don't think its compatible with Ni.
> 
> edit: think I need to elaborate on this more, so here's some examples;
> 
> I can actually relate to this as an Si base.
> _"He is often not very adept at finding new areas of interest"_ - this is how I relate to Ne as a dual seeking function - I rely on others for finding new interests and exploring possibilities, something that helps me break out of my routine and sense of familiarity.
> 
> (Se dual seeking is different, so looking at this function and how you relate to your dual is a useful way of identifying the base function.)


Is that your Te polr showing?

Basically you're telling me you disagree with Socionics because their interpretation of Ni is described in a way that any introverted or withdrawn person can relate to, which isn't really my problem. In addition to that, you're Si base and you relate to the descriptions of Ni base and Se suggestive, nice. Doesn't make what I said inconsistent or incompatible with Socionics, instead it's your own subjective interpretation of the theory that's incompatible with Socionics. In fact, your source pretty much proves my point. According to Wikisocion, Ni base is detached, leading to a highly developed imagination and mental world, can result in laziness, inactivity, etc. which is compatible with what I said regarding Ni base being more withdrawn and in your head. Your discrepancy is with Socionics and Wikisocion. Don't know what else to tell you.


----------



## owlet

Asd456 said:


> I haven't been following this thread closely so again I don't have a detailed analysis for you which is my interpretation of an argument but I'll respond to your points, add relevant comments, etc.
> 
> It should take a backseat, because IEI's Fe is creative. Similar to how my Ni takes a backseat to my Te.
> 
> SEI I wouldn't really consider, as that would mean lead Si.
> 
> As for having trouble with the emotional atmosphere, this sounds like lead Fe. Even if you have trouble with the emotional atmosphere, do you still pay attention to it?
> 
> Found this description of IEI's creative Fe, see if you relate:


I'm fairly uncomfortable in social situations generally. I also relate to Fe PoLR pretty well:

* *






> The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression.





> A type with Fe PoLR does not see the point of activities revolving around excessive displays of emotion or behavior that does not reach a concrete or tangible outcome. They would rather keep conversations serious and to the point, for he/she is overwhelmed by such emotional expression, making it quite difficult to express themselves. In social interactions they will make a serious effort to reduce their level of emotive expressiveness such as being too joyful or sad, believing that showing these signs will make them vulnerable to be influenced by others. They don't hold quite a high standard for how people as a group feel about something (even if outnumbered by many when making a personal decision), and instead value situations where they can speak their own subjective opinions and feelings freely.





I've become better at relaxing with Fe in very recent years, but the idea of being 'on an emotional wavelength' with others is very difficult for me. Also being expected to be on the right level with emotional displays is very stressful and, in highly emotional situations, I'll often try to remove myself from them (unless they involve someone very close to me, in which case I'll try to give advice).



> Why do you think so? Ni is still a perceiving/observing function, especially if it's Ni base. I think Ni is compatible with being withdrawn and in your head.


Hm, I wonder. I think the issue is that I'm very much in my head, but I don't ignore or neglect things going on outside - I just prefer not to be engaged with those kinds of things too often as it can become stressful for me.


----------



## owlet

Wisteria said:


> Ni descriptions can be associated with an introverted nature in general. It's described in such a way that any introverted or withdrawn person can easily relate to, so I don't think its compatible with Ni.
> 
> edit: think I need to elaborate on this more, so here's some examples;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can actually relate to this as an Si base.
> _"He is often not very adept at finding new areas of interest"_ - this is how I relate to Ne as a dual seeking function - I rely on others for finding new interests and exploring possibilities, something that helps me break out of my routine and sense of familiarity.
> 
> (Se dual seeking is different, so looking at this function and how you relate to your dual is a useful way of identifying the base function.)


I just wanted to say, I thought this was a good post and I do think chunks of descriptions can get away from the core of the function (especially straying into behavioural characteristics). It's difficult with things like Ni though, because it's often referred to as being about the passage of time and patterns, but I would think everyone was aware of those.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> I just wanted to say, I thought this was a good post and I do think chunks of descriptions can get away from the core of the function (especially straying into behavioural characteristics). It's difficult with things like Ni though, because it's often referred to as being about the passage of time and patterns, but I would think everyone was aware of those.


Really?
I mean everyone's aware of passage of time but it feels less obvious than internal sensations or whatever and I feel like patterns are something you can miss if you don't look for them, for me at least  Do you feel really aware of time and patterns?


----------



## nep2une

Vixey said:


> But not like SJ Si I think, non basic Si-ish things and like...nostalgia and such, that's not Si I know but I think about smells and tastes and such so much and could probably spend 5 hours every day swatching makeup and smelling creams and perfumes.
> (thought it was EIE before but tbh I thought everything was EIE so)


Yeah, I can't do this. I used to tell myself that I should take some time to pamper myself - not even long, maybe for half an hour or so. Could hardly even get myself to do that. It's a once in a blue moon thing.

Sometimes I'll be putting on some make-up and think to myself, 'Wow, this smells nice/feels nice. I forgot that it felt like this. I need to remember how nice this is so I can convince myself to do it more often. Remember, self!'

Do I remember? Nope. 



Vixey said:


> But most of my Si stuff is like...I _love_ doing it, there's definitely active will and some kind of excitement involved, could it be related to this?
> 
> Or like I often purposely open the windows at night so a blanket could make me feel warm, like to feel cold so I could actually appreciate warmth and not just feel comfortable.
> Do that kind of thing often.
> 
> But don't like some kinds of contact with physical reality when it's like...idk, I guess it has to come from me so might be PoLR thing?
> Si-ish stuff can annoy me if others put too much emphasis on them in annoying kind of way.


I don't notice temperature unless I'm too cold or too hot. The last time I can remember having a kind of "indulgence" like that was months back because a family member's car had heated seats. I was in a bad mood that day and was surprised by how well something like that helped. 



> He can only enjoy visceral contact with reality if it is accompanied by an active will to initiate such contact, to intentionally engage it.


The way I interpret this for me is I seem to not have much of an interest in… eh… passive pretty things, I'll word it like that. Like if I was to give an example, I've noticed if I'm playing a video game, I seem to have a tendency to not pay much attention to the decor or the posters or things like that. There's all these visual details I'm not paying any mind to because they're not something I can interact with or have use for. All this visual storytelling that I'm just oblivious to until I hear someone bring it up and then I think, 'Darn! I totally didn't notice that! I'm going to have to do better next time!' Then I totally don't… because I seem to have trouble noticing all these little details and putting them together to form a story. 

This was something I noticed about myself even before reading that, btw. I thought it was pretty neat when I read that description because that was exactly something I had thought about myself before.

I guess I'm assuming Si is like in the Sims when you get those moodlets for having well-decorated environments.











Vixey said:


> Or like always envied babies in strollers in winter, it just looks so great and cozy to like just be lying there wrapped up in a blanket while it's cold outside or have someone carry you, obviously anyone would think it's a great thing but do EIEs naturally think like that?
> Or like remember having daydreams that are really hard to explain that involved warm clothes, like it wasn't just about that but like...I used to daydream about sweaters is the point, is that Si PoLR?
> 
> edit: :laughing:
> 
> edit 2: often actually like see a person that looks like their Si isn't or shouldn't be happy and I feel really bad for them on visceral level, can't think of a good example right now


My daydreams about anything sensory seem more stereotypically Se. 

Actually I remember as a kid I used to like the moments in stories where the heroes would be greatly struggling or nearly dying or getting beaten within an inch of their life. 

Something brutal like this would be a good example:






Then when I got into my teens I started getting really interested in watching playthroughs of horror games while that was trending. I liked it enough at the time to think to myself occasionally that I'd like to work on one myself. 

And I think the kind of sensory stimulation I crave is also reflected quite well in my music taste.







* *




_
I'll be stuck chasing time, running all my life
Trying not to lose the fire, burning in my eyes

In a mad, mad world I'm falling in
Little lost to go tryna start again
Tick tock don't stop I'm breathing

All that I see is
Up down, up down
And barely breathing
But I follow, follow you down
And my mind is in spinning
Up down, up down
Still fighting my demons
But I follow, follow you down

Through the glass I lose myself in the darkest deep
Time is just a memory with its sun's on me

It's a mad mad world I'm drowning in
Does anybody know how to start again?
Tick tock don't stop I'm breathing

All that I see is
Up down, up down
And barely breathing
But I follow, follow you down
And my mind is in spinning
Up down, up down
Still fighting my demons
But I follow, follow you...

Falling faster than heart's beating
Tick tock don't stop I'm still breathing
Falling faster than heart's beating
Tick tock don't stop I'm still breathing
Yeah, I'm still breathing

All that I see is
Up down, up down
And barely breathing
But I follow, follow you down
And my mind is in spinning
Up down, up down
Still fighting my demons
But I follow, follow you down
But I follow, follow you down_




The closest I've came to having stereotypically Si daydreams were when it'd involve a crush. I would daydream about things like warming each others' hands when it was cold or taking naps together - and I don't even like naps! I actually had a mild phobia of sleep at one point.


----------



## Asd456

owlet said:


> I'm fairly uncomfortable in social situations generally. I also relate to Fe PoLR pretty well:
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've become better at relaxing with Fe in very recent years, but the idea of being 'on an emotional wavelength' with others is very difficult for me. Also being expected to be on the right level with emotional displays is very stressful and, in highly emotional situations, I'll often try to remove myself from them (unless they involve someone very close to me, in which case I'll try to give advice).
> 
> 
> Hm, I wonder. I think the issue is that I'm very much in my head, but I don't ignore or neglect things going on outside - I just prefer not to be engaged with those kinds of things too often as it can become stressful for me.


Fe polr would point to ILI and SLI, which I'm not sure about because I think you value Ti over Te and I can't see Te creative. 

If you're ESI, that would make you my dual and I'm not really feeling any fireworks right now in terms of communication, lol. 

I still think you value Ni and Ti, not really picking up on any Ne and Te. Just my general impression but if you still think ESI, that's fine as well.

I think 'being very much in your head' is related to Sp-first, also removing yourself from emotional situations, more detached and withdrawn, etc.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@nep2une @Vixey

To be fair, Se ego women are more likely to pull out the makeup and flashy shit than the Si ego ones because the latter they tend to go for a more natural look and their relation in regards to beauty/comfort is more personal (Si valuing). Not that it should make a difference if the Si ego in question is an insecure and conformist teenager mind you. This is assuming that you care about your appearance, cause anyone from any type can not do so (some more prone than others naturally).

And nep2une stop associating Si with this feminine shit, Clint Eastwood is an SLI. Pretty sure he dreams about kicking ass rather than the Sims and going to the spa.


----------



## Darkbloom

Greyhart said:


> Yes.
> 
> Not limited to but included in what is Si.


Any thoughts on my type? 




Nissa Nissa said:


> :laughing: not obvious :laughing:
> 
> If I imagine being a baby in a stroller I feel tense and annoyed


But it's just like a tiny car you don't have to drive, how can that make you feel tense? 



> I thiiink probably not?
> ESE seems a little...would Ne HA make any sense?? could probably see SEI before it


I don't know, this is probably not the best time to be responding to everything, brain not working the best, but I agree that SEI is probably more likely?



> I don't get this and this is something that confuses me about people, it's so strange to me when people are like 'bet your feet are cold!' because the energy to even think about one's own feet, applied to a whole 'nother person, boggles my mind that someone could even think of that, I never think about other people's feet not ever


I'm not really that person that forces you to wear a jacket but I notice things like that, idk, I mean was thinking it could still be 1D because it's like...a pure physical+emotional response, l don't know, I don't think about it a lot.
But I do often ask people "Aren't you cold? :concern: " and such.
And I realized I always thought about how other people felt in their bodies, not very consciously but like I'd suddenly just get a sense of how they feel for some reason and sometimes wonder if it is really how I imagine, like I see a photo of someone and there's something about the way their hands are touching and I tune into how they felt in that moment or something like that, if that makes sense?



> I was just going to mention that actually


So it does seem like I rarely talk about Ni? 



> hm similarly to stroller thing reading that sentence makes me want to punch something, I do really like some smells and I'll go somewhat out of my way for smells and I love how they evoke memories :lovekitty: can spend some time in perfume store smelling things but it will stress me out after a while I guess


Don't understand how it could be stressful 
The only stressful thing about perfume stores are those women who work there and breathe down your neck the whole time.

A while ago I smelled something that smelled exactly like one pokemon figurine (or I think it was some kind of candy with that figurine on the box, not 100% sure) I had as a kid, I obsessed over it for days and wanted to find a perfume that smells like that so I can bathe in it :fall:
Happens often.



> And never understood people enjoying make-up, I do it as quickly as possible while doing something else, and in stages while I get dressed (which probably explains why my make-up is on average slightly sub-par)


Sometimes I get used to not doing it even though I try to do it as often as possible, or the biggest problem is when I think of having to remove it in the evening, that can make me not want to wear any, but I still love doing it and buying it.

Or like not anymore but used to have about 10 shampoos at a time because I had to try every shampoo, really loved picking out and trying new ones. Also lip balms, was addicted to buying new ones for at least 15 years, longingly looked at them every time we were at the store in hopes that someone will offer to buy me one.



> And buying make-up and that kind of thing, I don't have the patience to really figure out what matches my skin, just buy stuff and figure it'll work out more or less, but I don't know it's like really frustrating, have a friend who really likes doing these things, we'll go to stores together and the lady will be like 'here try this lip cleanser' and she's like 'oooh, that's really nice' and it just makes me :angry:


 I'm really good at reading reviews and such and understanding them and understanding what I need (I'm not so good at clothes though, but not a fan of clothes in general, I wear simple-ish things I guess, very hard to keep up with any kind of special styles), and I love reading about people's experiences with different stuff even if I'm not planning on buying it, always loved reading reviews of things.

But it could also be partly imagey and other influences, like often I wear certain eyeshadow because it's mermaid-y or something, or because of the name, I like things like that.




nep2une said:


> Yeah, I can't do this. I used to tell myself that I should take some time to pamper myself - not even long, maybe for half an hour or so. Could hardly even get myself to do that. It's a once in a blue moon thing.
> 
> Sometimes I'll be putting on some make-up and think to myself, 'Wow, this smells nice/feels nice. I forgot that it felt like this. I need to remember how nice this is so I can convince myself to do it more often. Remember, self!'
> 
> Do I remember? Nope.


I can be lazy with some things but think that's different?
Like I have dry skin but I forget to apply some kind of lotion all the time except in summer and unless my skin is actually feeling dry, or like with skincare I'm often lost because there's no clear info imo on what's actually good and what isn't so it's one of those things, like you're eating apples to be healthy but:
1)an apple's not gonna save you if you are dying already
2)what do we even know about apples and human bodies?

And I often need to consciously force myself to take off my makeup before bed by reminding myself of both how harmful it is and also what my pillowcase is going to look like in the morning and how my lashes will feel and such, need to convince myself I'll have an overall better night if I remove my makeup but I still don't do it as thoroughly as I should.
Love second day makeup though :frustrating:

Generally I am not organized with Si-y things, my dad's ex was I think definitely SFJ (Delta-ish kind though), and she was so...like really, really perfectionistic about those things, generally she was so neat, she thought it was so _important_, constantly talked about how you only have one skin lol , that kind of thing I find very annoying and compared to that I'm like that garbage muppet, remember complaining so much to people about her trying to make me use special face wash, also don't think I like spa things and such.
(love hair salons though)



> The way I interpret this for me is I seem to not have much of an interest in… eh… passive pretty things, I'll word it like that. Like if I was to give an example, I've noticed if I'm playing a video game, I seem to have a tendency to not pay much attention to the decor or the posters or things like that. There's all these visual details I'm not paying any mind to because they're not something I can interact with or have use for. All this visual storytelling that I'm just oblivious to until I hear someone bring it up and then I think, 'Darn! I totally didn't notice that! I'm going to have to do better next time!' Then I totally don't… because I seem to have trouble noticing all these little details and putting them together to form a story.


That's the kind of thing I pay the most attention to in video games, I always want to reach a new level just to see what it looks like.
But it can annoy me irl if someone's too "Look at all the pretty flowers! " and such, often don't notice that kind of visual thing in real life.

And I love, love, love Se music, don't know if you saw stuff I posted so far about music 

Also wrote this a while ago in private
"i dont know, remember when I was little i had a book, 365 stories about bears or something, and there were two cute bears on one page, they were like jumping over each other or something lol and one of them had i think pink glossy looking underwear, was obsessed with that page"
(was explaining my love for certain kind of visual thing,I often get fixated on little things like that)

I love details in general, all kinds in a way, like even my daydreams are often...like think of a person making some facial expression and I really fixate on it, everything's kinda expressed through little things like that.

But I love horror movies, don't like anything fight-y and action-y though or like...not sure tbh my brain is dead right now and I usually don't know what I like to focus on until I'm focusing on it in reality, but I know in movies, books and such actual plot is my least favorite part and I often have no clue what actually happened in the book I just read lol, I overfocus on parts of it and constantly wait for certain person to appear, for description of someone's appearance and personality, interaction between two people I want to see interact, can be many things but never fight-ish and everyone dying and stuff, hated large part of the last Harry Potter book because it was too much...idk just chasing around horcruxes and killing dark lords, think I had a similar problem with maybe third one, just too much action focus for me.

Just remembered how I told my dad one time when I was a kid how I can almost immediately tell if certain movie is for me or not based on what it looks like, like the feel of it and such, and how there are kinda some exceptions but overall it works, wonder if it's good or bad Si-ish.


(sorry for bunch of unrelated things :frustrating: )



ElectricSlime said:


> @nep2une @Vixey
> 
> To be fair, Se ego women are more likely to pull out the makeup and flashy shit than the Si ego ones because the latter they tend to go for a more natural look and their relation in regards to beauty/comfort is more personal (Si valuing). Not that it should make a difference if the Si ego in question is an insecure and conformist teenager mind you. This is assuming that you care about your appearance, cause anyone from any type can not do so (some more prone than others naturally).
> 
> And nep2une stop associating Si with this feminine shit, Clint Eastwood is an SLI. Pretty sure he dreams about kicking ass rather than the Sims and going to the spa.


I agree but I guess an EIE would be more detached from the process?



ElectricSlime said:


> Fuck logic, I’m an EII. Dual spotted <3
> 
> But seriously, your taste shows the mark of an aesthete so far~


You dualty whore :chargrined:



_________
Not too happy with this post but I'm so tired and I don't want to delete everything, I'll try to elaborate on some things tomorrow when I'm less tired.
:sleepytime:


----------



## Mr Castelo

@ElectricSlime

It's funny comparing your experience to mine in high school, I've never stood out like that. Maybe in the sense that you described about being standoffish and not really talking to anyone. I wonder if that's a simple Extraversion vs Introversion difference, or if it's just me being sx-last. Like you, my social connections also "fade in the background", and I can just forget about them, but I'm probably the most asocial person I know (even compared to some so-lasts I know) so this is not a very fair comparison.

The thing is, you seem to be attuned to how you fit in those social settings, even labeling yourself as "the rebel" or "the jokester", you don't mind it and you seem relatively comfortable with it. It's not a conscious effort on your part, but it falls into your awareness anyway -- that's how So works for me. I don't want to assume that your style of interaction in this forum is how you interact with people irl, but that's all I can do with the limited amount of data -- you also seem very open and inclusive to other people, and you have no problem "mixing in" with others. Sp-firsts and So-lasts have a very "cautious" and reserved style of interaction, they usually feel at least slightly uneasy in groups (especially So-last). Just my impression overall.

Anyway, how do you view So-last for you? For me, Sx-last is clear because I'm clueless about almost everything related to SX, intimacy makes me feel uncomfortable and being in a close relationship with someone is a really low priority (I pride myself in not needing other people). More than just negligence, it's a blind-spot and it makes me feel awkward when it's required from me. Maybe not all people feel that way about their last instinct, but I'm willing to guess it's a common reaction.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Remnants
@Nissa Nissa
Reading Ne in various positions thing


Ne is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others.
I'm not very curious in intellectual Ne kind of way I think, I am in some ways.
Recognize natural propensities in people in sense that...like I'll look at a singer or something and think "Oh this song she's trying to sing is really not for her" (based on her demeanor and energy) and such, think I'm very, very good at that kind of thing, not sure about the rest of this or how I'd even determine it.
Would say I'm good at seeing connections between different viewpoints and such or like...I never ever think "How can this person be like this? How can this person think like this?", I mean yes on personal level but not _really_, I can tap into people's frame of mind.

Types that value Ne prefer to try out an opportunity rather than consider all possible ways in which it could not work out.
No 

They pick a few options and stick with them, in contrast to introverted intuition (Ni) types who pick one option and continue to doubt that option.
What? 

They enjoy discussing unusual insights into the nature of the world and crazy out-there ideas, like space elevators. Typical Ne quadra humor juxtaposes seemingly unrelated phenomena.Not really, first make me a space elevator and then we can talk about it  (but not too much please)
But do have some of this, annoys me when it turns into whole discussions though, but the way I interact casually can be Ne-ish, almost everyone in my family is Ne valuing, remember always coming up with stupid little songs with my grandpa, loved that kind of thing, or growing up I always thought my dad's sense of humor was hilarious, watched many of these old I guess Si/Ne-y movies that weren't supposed to be interesting to kids but I loved them and we'd repeat lines in everyday life all the time. 

Ne as Leading Function
The individual is skilled at generating intellectual interest and curiosity in others and using others' curiosity to get them to do things. He easily sees parallels between different situations, areas of knowledge or skill, and people, and likes to establish contacts across different fields of knowledge and social groups, which allows him to be part of many things at once. He enjoys considering differing viewpoints and perspectives and seeing if they can be reconciled. He enjoys the beginning stages of just about anything - new projects, acquiring new skills, experiencing new people and relationships. Preparing for and launching something new is seen as having greater value than the process of experiencing what one already has and finishing what one has begun. The concept of "finishing" seems foreign to him. Instead of taking care to finish things and tie up all loose ends, he tends to drop things when he can't handle them any longer or realize that he has neglected them for too long (this might be equally related to suggestive introverted sensing).
Doesn't sound like me overall,do see parallels between things though

Ne as Creative Function
The individual likes to apply his insight to specific situations, relating them to the bigger picture.
Sounds like me for some reason 
He also enjoys discussing idealized circumstances or what could be rather than what is. 
Yes
Consequently, he usually has high standards, even unreasonably so, for those around him. 
No
He does not pursue ideas or new opportunities merely for their own sake, but for their application to specific questions and issues that he feels are important.
Maybe
Hard to tell, not an opportunity seeking person, at least don't call them opportunities so it's hard to tell


Ne as Role Function
The individual is uncertain of other people's motives, intentions, and abilities and prefers to give them clear commands and assignments and judge their intentions and potential by whether or not they fulfill these demands. He tends to openly express mistrust and skepticism towards all unexpected or novel behavior and developments, as well as towards information about things that he or she has not experienced directly. This mistrustful attitude usually goes away after the person has the chance to deal with the new thing, event, or behavior directly for a period of time and get used to it. *He is able to orient himself quickly when he is in direct contact with events, things, or behavior, but when he is told about them far in advance or simply in the form of "random information that may come in handy some day," he usually doesn't know how to react to this information. *The individual prefers to know what awaits him in specific areas in the near future rather than what awaits him "in general" and in areas that don't affect his central interests. The person is particularly aggravated when people are late for unclear reasons and behave in other independent and unpredictable ways. This gives them the feeling of hanging in the air and general uncertainty about the future. Being action oriented people, this is difficult to bear.
The bolded sounds very me for some reason.
And yes not interested in areas that don't affect my central interests and like...idk, like my dad always thinks I'm dismissive towards nearly everything and constantly in the state of being fixated on one thing and such even though I don't even know much about that thing, just once I'm decided on something it's over, nothing else exists.
Relate to feeling of hanging in the air when people are late and such, just clicks.

Ne as Vulnerable Function
The individual is highly skeptical about ideas and opportunities that appear not to lead anywhere specific, and seeks assurance that new innovations will definitely bring material benefits.
I look at my mom and her ideas with so much skepticism, not sure about her type at this point (think Ne dom still but not sure), she is probably a 794, she constantly tries to make art into her career in some way and I always think to myself 'Gosh I doubt this can work', don't usually say it out loud although compared to her I definitely like...narrow things down, not sure, I think I can be harsh tbh.

He prefers the kind of ideas and innovations that offer solutions to existing problems rather than the kind that have uncertain consequences and are likely to bring upheaval and unnecessary change.
Yes unless it's just small things.
Love upheaval when it comes to my snack choices Actually opposite of my mother, she hates how I always choose weird things or like I say "This is the best ice cream I ever tasted" and then next time I get a different one, it's confusing to her, a couple of other people don't like it too.
But then my dad doesn't get how every time we go to our favorite restaurant I always get a burger but it's a different one every time so to me that is variety and also normal food doesn't make me as happy, could easily make some chicken or something at home, I always order burger or pizza or sometimes steak when I'm at a restaurant. But I'm also picky and had some bad experiences so I mostly ignore most things at restaurants, would say that for how picky I am I still love variety. 

The individual may tend to forcefully restrict other people's activities in areas he thinks they have no natural talent in. 
Try not to be _forceful_
At the same time, he or she is prone to make errors when judging whether or not a person is capable of doing something. 
Doesn't everyone? :/
But would say I have trouble believing before I can see it in some cases and things do often end up surprising me
The individual generally does not try hard to understand multiple viewpoints, but concentrates on developing only his own. 
I'm good at understanding viewpoints, or like I mentioned how I love reading other people's opinions and such but I don't really let them shape my view, not directly at least.

He is not very good at intriguing others with his ideas, even when they have significant merit.
Do I intrigue you with my ideas?  
The individual dislikes it when people evaluate others' potential to engage in activities or develop skills in which they haven't had experience yet; above all he is uncomfortable with such discussions by other people regarding himself. 
Yes-ish
He is inclined to be either over-skeptical of his own potential or going to the other extreme and overestimate his possibilities in specific areas on occasion.
Yes Yes Yes

Ne as Suggestive Function
The individual has great respect and admiration for people who are always pursuing something new and different and are not tied down to material things.
I mean it is respectable and admirable but not really the kind of thing I focus on
He easily becomes attached to people who believe in his potential and praise him for his unique skills.
No clue 
He rarely emphasizes his talents, unique experience, or singularity publicly, but prefers to seem like "your average guy" so that others can relate to him easily. However, he is more open about his unique attributes in close personal relationships. He is sensitive about his talents and uniqueness because so often uniqueness creates distance between people rather than closeness. He dreams of having his uniqueness recognized, welcomed, and fostered by a close group, but "just in case" avoids emphasizing his uniqueness and talents in new or large group situations. Since he finds it difficult to identify what unique talents he has, this often results in a tendency to avoid setting long-term career goals.I'm bad at things like knowing my talents, wording it especially, but this is mostly a no

Ne as Mobilizing Function
The individual deeply appreciates people who are full of ideas and imagination and who give them a sense of connectedness to what is happening "out there in the world," Would never put it like thiseven if this information cannot be applied practically at the present moment. He is even more grateful for people who provide insightful ideas and unconventional analysis to enhance what he is working on or going through at the present moment.
Remember a friend in middle school always trying to come up with creative way to study and it made no sense to me 
With some things probably???
But this is similar to my dad's Ti-ish thing and math, it'shard for me to fully accept this kind of thing, but also depends on what interests me and such, don't like anything that kinda expands on something I already don't like.
But like with typology I'm mostly open to stuff many people seem to hate, like collage typing, body language typing, music, etc., really i think everything can be helpful as long as you don't get carried away.

Ne as Ignoring Function
The individual understands "external" connections made between different areas of knowledge and experience, but prefers to focus instead on "hidden" connections that have a special significance and help understand the mysterious, hidden nature of things. He is able to readily grasp the intrinsic potential of a given thing or situation, but prefers to restrict indulging such assessments in the face of understanding the latent processes underpinning said things.Annoying wording but yes-ish

Ne as Demonstrative Function
The individual is fairly good at generating all sorts of ideas, but doesn't himself take the ideas seriously and views the activity as a sort of entertaining exercise lacking in value. It is more natural for him to apply his imagination and vision specifically to those areas where he is trying to achieve something than to "indulge" in thinking about things that have no relation to those areas of interest.
Don't apply my imagination like that, idk, actually I'm horrible at intuition and ideas that can be applied, like I was always...somehow creative and right brain-ish but I don't create or focus on that kind of thing, don't have 'ideas' and such or I don't notice them like that, and like I'm bad at brainstorming and such but there are moments when someone's like "This is insightful!" or "Oh, good idea!" and such. 
Feel like these descriptions and I don't speak each other's language tbh


----------



## Darkbloom

Love silly Ne like coming up with stupid puns and phrases and then googling them to see if they already exist but :laughing:
Or like I come up with songs or parodies and sing them.
And it's only when I'm like...really bored but still not in coma-like state from boredom or when I'm with idk certain kind of person.
Remember thinking I was an ESFJ before because think my grandpa is a SJ and we'd do the stupidest kind of Ne together, it made grandma yell at us all the time.


________
Thinking ESFP/SEE might make the most sense, I know @nep2une agrees, can anyone else see it?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Love silly Ne like coming up with stupid puns and phrases and then googling them to see if they already exist but :laughing:
> Or like I come up with songs or parodies and sing them.
> And it's only when I'm like...really bored but still not in coma-like state from boredom or when I'm with idk certain kind of person.
> Remember thinking I was an ESFJ before because think my grandpa is a SJ and we'd do the stupidest kind of Ne together, it made grandma yell at us all the time.
> 
> 
> ________
> Thinking ESFP/SEE might make the most sense, I know @nep2une agrees, can anyone else see it?


ESFP perhaps, but definitely not SEE. Gonna break it to you: you’re a clear Si ego to me.


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> But it's just like a tiny car you don't have to drive, how can that make you feel tense?


Because the best part of driving is driving, and being in a stroller is like being in a tiny miniature prison and you are at the mercy of whoever is driving the stroller and you can't even move your arms or legs or do anything but be in a stroller, don't think I have a conscious memory of being in a stroller but I think it happened at some point, think I can vaguely remember desperately straining to get out, kinda feels me with the feeling of not having brushed your teeth for a while :angry:



> I'm not really that person that forces you to wear a jacket but I notice things like that, idk, I mean was thinking it could still be 1D because it's like...a pure physical+emotional response, l don't know, I don't think about it a lot.
> But I do often ask people "Aren't you cold? :concern: " and such.


It seems higher than 1D to me



> And I realized I always thought about how other people felt in their bodies, not very consciously but like I'd suddenly just get a sense of how they feel for some reason and sometimes wonder if it is really how I imagine, like I see a photo of someone and there's something about the way their hands are touching and I tune into how they felt in that moment or something like that, if that makes sense?


Hm, interesting
I've had it that I've suddenly felt like...someone sat next to me and I was suddenly swept over with sadness or something, like they were radiating sadness and it had something to do with the way they were sitting or something
and I've consciously tried, as part of amateur detective-work :laughing: to copy how someone is standing and realizing you can get some sort of sense of how they are feeling, but it's definitely something I have to think about
But I'm not 100% sure that it's Si anyways



> So it does seem like I rarely talk about Ni?


Well, I don't notice it at least, and you do bring up Si a lot



> Don't understand how it could be stressful
> The only stressful thing about perfume stores are those women who work there and breathe down your neck the whole time.


They are stressful, those women! 
(It's a very personal thing, buying perfume, so they should really have a policy to hang back)
I do enjoy it to some extent, I remember going with a friend to the men's cologne section, and trying to find perfumes that would be a good match for some characters we'd made up, it was really fun to try to match personality to cologne
But I feel like I need some sort of story like that, otherwise it...I don't know, just makes me angry on some strange level, not at anyone but it's just like the feeling of sitting still for too long, too much focus on such a small detail?

(I'm very particular about the perfumes I wear, maybe more the idea of them than anything though...like the one I'm wearing now (that's not my signature perfume so it's a little sad) I bought online just based on some historical merit, I'll buy things based on the advertisement too  or well once I saw an advertisement I really liked but I hated the lotion so I bought another one and tried hard to pretend that it was the one from the advertisement XD)



> Sometimes I get used to not doing it even though I try to do it as often as possible, or the biggest problem is when I think of having to remove it in the evening, that can make me not want to wear any, but I still love doing it and buying it.


I think I've taken make-up off my face (beside stage make-up) once in my life, it's always gone by morning :shocked: never understood why that was supposed to be a thing, maybe I don't wear enough make-up or something, doesn't seem to cause problems
probably wouldn't wear it if I had to specifically take it off



> Or like not anymore but used to have about 10 shampoos at a time because I had to try every shampoo, really loved picking out and trying new ones. Also lip balms, was addicted to buying new ones for at least 15 years, longingly looked at them every time we were at the store in hopes that someone will offer to buy me one.


definitely don't relate, though I can be similar with candles, love having a scented candle and I'm tempted by all of them



> I'm really good at reading reviews and such and understanding them and understanding what I need (I'm not so good at clothes though, but not a fan of clothes in general, I wear simple-ish things I guess, very hard to keep up with any kind of special styles), and I love reading about people's experiences with different stuff even if I'm not planning on buying it, always loved reading reviews of things.


Oh, that would make me want to die



> Generally I am not organized with Si-y things, my dad's ex was I think definitely SFJ (Delta-ish kind though), and she was so...like really, really perfectionistic about those things, generally she was so neat, she thought it was so _important_, constantly talked about how you only have one skin lol , that kind of thing I find very annoying and compared to that I'm like that garbage muppet, remember complaining so much to people about her trying to make me use special face wash, also don't think I like spa things and such.
> (love hair salons though)


I hate hair salons a lot, I want to scream when people wash my hair

I was reminded of this character:










who does a lot of things that make me (and most people) uncomfortable in a Si way, that's almost the point of the character, but I think a lot of normal things make me feel the way most people feel about this








> That's the kind of thing I pay the most attention to in video games, I always want to reach a new level just to see what it looks like.
> But it can annoy me irl if someone's too "Look at all the pretty flowers! " and such, often don't notice that kind of visual thing in real life.


I often do



> But I love horror movies, don't like anything fight-y and action-y though or like...not sure tbh my brain is dead right now and I usually don't know what I like to focus on until I'm focusing on it in reality, but I know in movies, books and such actual plot is my least favorite part and I often have no clue what actually happened in the book I just read lol, I overfocus on parts of it and constantly wait for certain person to appear, for description of someone's appearance and personality, interaction between two people I want to see interact, can be many things but never fight-ish and everyone dying and stuff, hated large part of the last Harry Potter book because it was too much...idk just chasing around horcruxes and killing dark lords, think I had a similar problem with maybe third one, just too much action focus for me.


hate horror movies but kinda relate to this, felt the same way about the 7th (and my favourite parts were 'daily life at Hogwarts', didn't like the 4th one much for the same reason, 3rd was my favourite because I loved Lupin, and the time-turner, and it was the most 'daily life at Hogwarts' and little magical details



Vixey said:


> Recognize natural propensities in people in sense that...like I'll look at a singer or something and think "Oh this song she's trying to sing is really not for her" (based on her demeanor and energy) and such, think I'm very, very good at that kind of thing, not sure about the rest of this or how I'd even determine it.


Seems Si-ish maybe??



> Would say I'm good at seeing connections between different viewpoints and such or like...I never ever think "How can this person be like this? How can this person think like this?", I mean yes on personal level but not _really_, I can tap into people's frame of mind.[/color]


maybe 2ish/9ish



> the way I interact casually can be Ne-ish, almost everyone in my family is Ne valuing, remember always coming up with stupid little songs with my grandpa, loved that kind of thing, or growing up I always thought my dad's sense of humor was hilarious, watched many of these old I guess Si/Ne-y movies that weren't supposed to be interesting to kids but I loved them and we'd repeat lines in everyday life all the time.


seems notable but not sure what to do with it

___

was going to go through whole thing but actually I want to walk around this new city before it gets dark and I need to buy things, I thought your description of Role Ne sounded convincing, I'm thinking about SEI and SEE rn, 1D Si is seeming wrong I think


----------



## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> @ElectricSlime
> 
> It's funny comparing your experience to mine in high school, I've never stood out like that. Maybe in the sense that you described about being standoffish and not really talking to anyone. I wonder if that's a simple Extraversion vs Introversion difference, or if it's just me being sx-last. Like you, my social connections also "fade in the background", and I can just forget about them, but I'm probably the most asocial person I know (even compared to some so-lasts I know) so this is not a very fair comparison.
> 
> The thing is, you seem to be attuned to how you fit in those social settings, even labeling yourself as "the rebel" or "the jokester", you don't mind it and you seem relatively comfortable with it. It's not a conscious effort on your part, but it falls into your awareness anyway -- that's how So works for me. I don't want to assume that your style of interaction in this forum is how you interact with people irl, but that's all I can do with the limited amount of data -- you also seem very open and inclusive to other people, and you have no problem "mixing in" with others. Sp-firsts and So-lasts have a very "cautious" and reserved style of interaction, they usually feel at least slightly uneasy in groups (especially So-last). Just my impression overall.
> 
> Anyway, how do you view So-last for you? For me, Sx-last is clear because I'm clueless about almost everything related to SX, intimacy makes me feel uncomfortable and being in a close relationship with someone is a really low priority (I pride myself in not needing other people). More than just negligence, it's a blind-spot and it makes me feel awkward when it's required from me. Maybe not all people feel that way about their last instinct, but I'm willing to guess it's a common reaction.


I don't know if I'm "inclusive", I have a pretty significant filter in the people I interact with, pretty biased. I tend to know instinctively what I look for and what I don't look for. Not that I'm dismissive off the bat, but I set up things so I don't have to be tied down with something or someone I don't care about. Dunno if that's noticeable here, but you're right, I am inclusive of the people I enjoy.

You know it's a bit funny how people here describe So last as lurkers who seem to never interact with more than one people at a time and never get into social situations. For me I always attributed it to my terrible team spirit, my refusal to concern myself with the agenda of someone or something that isn't personally close to myself. How my mom and sister like to pass me off as the bull in the china shop who doesn't get social etiquette and norms when we go over at someone's place or at the restaurant (I guess this could be related to being an NT as well), my extroverted loner disposition and my frequent periods of social isolation and disinterest, my disinterest in networking and building a social network (I suck at keeping in touch with many people). I remember about 2 years ago when someone told me "As we say there are two kinds of people, leader and follower, you Slime you're a leader" . And I answered "Hardly Nathan, I'm a loner."

The thing is, I do think of my home as my castle in a way. My protection from external demands that get in the way of my freedom (is this a 5 thing?). And I read Sx/So descriptions and I just think to myself "Nah this ain't right". The impression I get is of someone with no reserve, who always overwhelms anyone he interacts with, uberly sexual in disposition (like Madonna and Elvis) and is a loose booty that gets wasted on a daily basis. I'm not a rock-and-roll person, I'm more shrouded and contained than that.

But I'll give you guys some more ammo to declare I'm not So last: When I was 11 or 12, the school had a basketball team that I was participating in (while also playing for my local city). The schedules overlapped and I made a choice so I got into a "fight" with the school coach, who later had someone carry a letter to me. The very first lines of the letter were basically hinting towards putting the whole blame on me, so I theatrically tore the thing into pieces without reading it in the presence of my class. That caught the guys' interest, so I decided to organize an operation to pick up the pieces and stick it back together. Anyone who participated would gain the "privilege" to read it himself. IIRC it was raining that day and the recess took place indoors, so it was perfect. Afterwards reading it only solidified my decision to leave the team and concentrate on the inter-city competition. So inspired from LeBron James' The Decision, we set up a mini stage with the desks and chairs and would improvise a TV show where I would just spout lines from movies. It was a laughing riot.

Yes I was (still am) a little shit, and fun was had that day. Very EIE ish behavior btw *whistles*


----------



## Mr Castelo

ElectricSlime said:


> I don't know if I'm "inclusive", I have a pretty significant filter in the people I interact with, pretty biased. I tend to know instinctively what I look for and what I don't look for. Not that I'm dismissive off the bat, but I set up things so I don't have to be tied down with something or someone I don't care about. Dunno if that's noticeable here, but you're right, I am inclusive of the people I enjoy.


Yeah, that's basically SX.



> You know it's a bit funny how people here describe So last as lurkers who seem to never interact with more than one people at a time and never get into social situations.


I'd say your overall disposition, the way you present yourself, and your areas of interest in life show your instincts more than whether you're social or not. Instincts are rather basic, there aren't complicated reasons behind them, they're just drives.



> For me I always attributed it to my terrible team spirit, my refusal to concern myself with the agenda of someone or something that isn't personally close to myself. How my mom and sister like to pass me off as the bull in the china shop who doesn't get social etiquette and norms when we go over at someone's place or at the restaurant (I guess this could be related to being an NT as well), my extroverted loner disposition and my frequent periods of social isolation and disinterest, my disinterest in networking and building a social network (I suck at keeping in touch with many people). I remember about 2 years ago when someone told me "As we say there are two kinds of people, leader and follower, you Slime you're a leader" . And I answered "Hardly Nathan, I'm a loner."


I'm fairly sure a lot of it is related to being NT, as I can relate to those characteristics myself, my disregard to social etiquette and norms are pretty blatant (well, my PoLR Fe is also abysmal). You got me with "disinterest in networking and building a social network", though, because as much as I'm asocial, I can see the benefits of it. However, I can't help but notice that you have this "loner" image ingrained in your mind, and it's probably why it's hard for you to see yourself as Sx/So (among other reasons). Don't get too caught up in it because I consider myself to be a loner, and that in no way contradicts me being So-second. Also, it's perfectly possible for So people to carry their own agenda for their own purposes (heck, my brother is a Social 3 and he is a bit like that).



> The thing is, I do think of my home as my castle in a way. My protection from external demands that get in the way of my freedom (is this a 5 thing?). And I read Sx/So descriptions and I just think to myself "Nah this ain't right". The impression I get is of someone with no reserve, who always overwhelms anyone he interacts with, uberly sexual in disposition (like Madonna and Elvis) and is a loose booty that gets wasted on a daily basis. I'm not a rock-and-roll person, I'm more shrouded and contained than that.


To be honest, Sp-lasts do give me the impression of being more scattered, and less reserved. Boundaries are very important to me, and they seem to have little concern for that. Well, at least the ones I personally know are like that.



> But I'll give you guys some more ammo to declare I'm not So last: When I was 11 or 12, the school had a basketball team that I was participating in (while also playing for my local city). The schedules overlapped and I made a choice so I got into a "fight" with the school coach, who later had someone carry a letter to me. The very first lines of the letter were basically hinting towards putting the whole blame on me, so I theatrically tore the thing into pieces without reading it in the presence of my class. That caught the guys' interest, so I decided to organize an operation to pick up the pieces and stick it back together. Anyone who participated would gain the "privilege" to read it himself. IIRC it was raining that day and the recess took place indoors, so it was perfect. Afterwards reading it only solidified my decision to leave the team and concentrate on the inter-city competition. So inspired from LeBron James' The Decision, we set up a mini stage with the desks and chairs and would improvise a TV show where I would just spout lines from movies. It was a laughing riot.


That does sound very So.



> Yes I was (still am) a little shit, and fun was had that day. Very EIE ish behavior btw *whistles*


Yeah, no way you're EIE, ILE seems spot on so far. Ne leads tend to write huge posts with 2 to 3 different topics/episodes, and of course there's always something to expand on.


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> Definitely! I think it was 891 as the anger types - all have anger as a focus but express it differently i.e. 9s tend to repress, 8 express, 1s direct? So 1s could be seen to avoid anger but actually are directing it to some purpose whereas 8s wrap it around themselves...maybe...
> 
> Hmm that could be a confidence issue as a type 1 - feel unable to tackle conflict directly etc (the main type descriptions seem to be of very confident types rather than ones with any form of low confidence/anxiety/being British). Have you looked at 8 and 9 as types for you as well?
> 
> No no not bad! I think I just got confused (I reply to posts after work so tend to be a bit tired). I can very much relate to that - what makes them unable to follow the protocols when everyone else can etc. I have it with people eating/drinking in the lab I 'manage' so I get really annoyed (they'll even spill coffee and not clean it up so I KNOW theyve gone against the protocols and they dont even care they have...)
> 
> So far not type has jumped out at me...yet...
> 
> Hmm tough question! I relate to a lot of aspects of each of them. I kind of think maybe an anger type like 8 or 1 because I have a lot of issues with anger (Im not aggressive usually but have had to learn to stop being angry a lot of the time - pick my battles, not fight everything etc). I also wonder about the image types because of wondering about the missing piece of myself etc. The gut triad is mostly anxiety I think, though 5s withdrawn, knowledge-philic self seems familiar....


Yeah that's what I heard about the gut triad, except 1s withhold their anger rather than directing it - which is similar to 9s who repress/suppress. I think the difference is 9s try to deny their anger and want to maintain a sense of peace, while 1s withhold their frustrations because expressing their anger might make them seem less like a good person. 

A motivation of 8s is to not show vulnerability so I think that's why they don't have an issue to expressing anger. Probably quite a simple way of putting it though.

Overall anger is an issue for all the gut triad types so if that's something you relate to then it's worth looking into those types.

Yeah but it's maybe also related to 9s, wanting to avoid confrontation/directness. Though I don't feel unable to tackle a conflicts, it's just that i'd rather not unless it's necessary, like if there's no other way to deal with the situation.

wait being British?  I wondered if Scottish people are different, but as part of the UK our culture is pretty much the same as england lol. Do brits tend to have an non confrontational or direct attitude compared to those from other countries? 

Yes I've looked at almost all the types, and I know i'm definitely not 8 (and probably not 2) so either 9w1 or 1w9.

Ah ok no worries. 
that sounds frustrating, and pretty unprofessional :/ I can understand the temptation to bring coffee in a lab or any workplace, but still...

Yeah I remember thinking you're core could be gut triad but I can't remember why lol, it was a while back. I think the head triad is known as the "anxiety" triad. I relate to 5 for those reasons too, like wanting to understand how things work. that's why the 1 vs 5 comparison was useful;



> Both are philosophical, and love knowledge: Ones as a means of perfecting the world, Fives as a way of discovering more about the world. Ones tend to be teachers and moralists, not inventors and iconoclasts like Fives.


The link that Paradigm posted a little while ago was quite useful for the type descriptions https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/ but it stuck between two types then the comparisons come in handy. 5 might make sense for you but I don't know enough to be sure tbh!


----------



## Wisteria

nep2une said:


> You would probably know a thing or two about "misunderstood" (I somewhat dislike using that word, hence the quotes) functions considering that... You label yourself as an ISFJ, right? Si-doms and Fe-doms might as well be aliens, because it seems like people find them foreign and unrelatable. At least that's the impression I get since there aren't that many of them around here. Bad descriptions probably have a good portion of the blame in that.


Yeah but I didn't decide the SEI/ISFJ by myself, I got some feedback for this. I used to be typed as EII and i guess the reason why was because I misunderstood Fe and underestimated my Si. 

It is strange that there are no Alpha SFs around, or alpha quadra types in general actually. Though people of the same quadras tend to gravitate towards each other (because each quadra has a group interaction style) so maybe that's the case for this thread/forum?

Most people use sociotype and wikisocion, not sure how good they are as descriptions but i've seen better ones. 16types.info is a good socionics source that i like to use.


----------



## Wisteria

@Vixey you could try filling out the Ne Block of a socionics questionnaire? I agree that you're probably not 1D Si anyways, or at least not Si PoLR.


----------



## Dangerose

Mr Castelo said:


> I'm fairly sure a lot of it is related to being NT, as I can relate to those characteristics myself, my disregard to social etiquette and norms are pretty blatant (well, my PoLR Fe is also abysmal). You got me with "disinterest in networking and building a social network", though, because as much as I'm asocial, I can see the benefits of it. However, I can't help but notice that you have this "loner" image ingrained in your mind, and it's probably why it's hard for you to see yourself as Sx/So (among other reasons). Don't get too caught up in it because I consider myself to be a loner, and that in no way contradicts me being So-second. Also, it's perfectly possible for So people to carry their own agenda for their own purposes (heck, my brother is a Social 3 and he is a bit like that).


Agree with this @ElectricSlime, imo you haven't said anything that invalidates so-mid and I haven't seen much sign of sp either...

It also seems like you're considering EIE or SLE just because of Beta values, but I think anyone with 6 and 8 in their tritype would relate to that, not sure about your Socionics/MBTI at all (I will blur them if I want)but don't see a problem with ENTP

____________-

does anyone have an opinion about my Si? I want to delete that part of the post


----------



## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> I'm fairly sure a lot of it is related to being NT, as I can relate to those characteristics myself, my disregard to social etiquette and norms are pretty blatant (well, my PoLR Fe is also abysmal). You got me with "disinterest in networking and building a social network", though, because as much as I'm asocial, I can see the benefits of it. *However, I can't help but notice that you have this "loner" image ingrained in your mind, and it's probably why it's hard for you to see yourself as Sx/So (among other reasons). Don't get too caught up in it because I consider myself to be a loner, and that in no way contradicts me being So-second. Also, it's perfectly possible for So people to carry their own agenda for their own purposes (heck, my brother is a Social 3 and he is a bit like that).*


Speaking of which, how would you describe an ILI Sx/So (E5, E6 or E1 isn't very important, there should be common factors).

Bolded is interesting, cause another user did mention that I seemed like I wanted to be perceived as an asshole. And it's true, because being a "loner" (still a sociable one) and an asshole gives you the space to say what needs to be said without being bogged down too much by affections and loyalties. Allows me to filter myself less.



> To be honest, Sp-lasts do give me the impression of being more scattered, and less reserved. Boundaries are very important to me, and they seem to have little concern for that. Well, at least the ones I personally know are like that.


Well my boundaries are initial strong walls that I put up, but I can dissolve them easily too. I still feel the need to put them up cause again, I don't want to have anyone going and leaving at will without my consent. Anyone who tries to dig into my personal affairs and motives behind my back gets cut off.

Though I do wonder how much impact w5 has in all this.



> That does sound very So.


It does ! Yet I still don't care for most parties, go figure (not really correlating it to instincts, just putting it out there).



> Yeah, no way you're EIE, ILE seems spot on so far. Ne leads tend to write huge posts with 2 to 3 different topics/episodes, and of course there's always something to expand on.


Good to know but to be fair, my posts usually aren't as lengthy as the last one was, it's mostly that I could talk about myself all day long :smug:
@Nissa Nissa

I wouldn't give much stock to erotic attitudes, considering I relate most to the Victim ones: 



16types.info said:


> Psuedo-Aggressors/Employees: LIE (ENTj) ILI (INTp)
> 
> These are types who exhibit aggressive tendencies in their everyday life, and as a result tend to carry over these notions and temperaments into their romantic life. They typically are not comfortable with connotations of the word "victim" - implying a certain weakness, effeteness, and lack of dignity. In searching for a partner, they are looking for a worthy opponent - someone who is strong enough to withstand their quirks without "breaking" so to speak.





> Challengers/Trophies: EIE (ENFj) IEI (INFp)
> 
> These are the types who unconsciously throw a "gauntlet" down for their opponents. They know on an almost subliminal level exactly who they are looking for, and anyone who does not fit the bill will be subjected to a rather flakey, hot-cold game of courting tag. As a result, they may appear (both to others and to themselves) rather amorphous and can take on qualities of the other romantic attitudes, depending on the situation and who they are "challenging."
> 
> They may, for example, give the victim half his aggressor, the psuedo-aggressor a little victim, the caregiver a bit of his child, etc. They react best, however, to those who do not "break" as a result of their games, but grant them a level of autonomy. Healthy examples of this type will have a sense of self-esteem, and may think of themselves as the "prize" that will be given only to the rightful owner.


My dad, a Si ego very likely, is Infantile as fuck as compared to me.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> Agree with this @ElectricSlime, imo you haven't said anything that invalidates so-mid and I haven't seen much sign of sp either...
> 
> *It also seems like you're considering EIE or SLE just because of Beta values*, but I think anyone with 6 and 8 in their tritype would relate to that, not sure about your Socionics/MBTI at all (I will blur them if I want)but don't see a problem with ENTP
> 
> ____________-
> 
> does anyone have an opinion about my Si? I want to delete that part of the post


Hold on, not solely. The EIE Reinin dichotomies are the perfect fit for me (except for like one I guess). Not an absolute notion, but a helpful one for sure. And I feel Se valuing somehow...

Also this:



> purely anecdotal... I had a friend, SLE who was very much all-or-nothing with everyone. Once he decides you're "in" his life, you're in. But if he decides, for whatever reason, that he's had enough of you, you're suddenly blocked from his Facebook and erased from every corner. It's quite odd and I think a lot more extreme than most. He's not snooty when it comes to socio-economic status, but he IS snooty with other things, with character, intellect, political views. He'll act like it's okay for you to disagree with him, but all the while he will subtly try to win you over to his side (if he cares about the friendship). Any attempt on your part to win him over to your side, is seen as aggressive. LOL But it was funny how he called ME out on being aristocratic (and he knows nothing of socionics by the way) and yet is very much that way himself.





> This sounds like something SLE, ESI and ILI would do. I'm going to go ahead and assume EIE does it also. Negativist-Decisive-Constructivist(Inert Ethics) quaternion


is me.

Also your Si sucks, and there's nothing wrong with that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## ElectricSlime

> ENFj
> 
> Type spotting:
> Gulenko:
> 1. To be or not to be? A serious person focused on global problems. Sees the world in dramatic, even tragic colors. Expects all kinds of trouble. Beethoven’s four notes – the theme of fate – sound like the theme of his life. He takes personal problems and addresses them on a global scale. Meanwhile he often also strives to give something back to mankind.


Mankind doesn't deserve me, but otherwise yes.



> 2. Romantic. Tends to permanent doubts and wavering. Sometimes seems to people around him to be an irritable, easily excitable individual. For example any unnecessary movements put him off, because the world as it is already seems to him too dynamic. Does not like to take initiative. *He values feelings above cold-minded analysis.*


The bolded depends on the context (work vs relationships). The rest is good.



> 3. Strategist. Knows how to time his efforts. Bravely enters a situation once he had carefully studied it and prepared everything ahead of time. He waits for the right time to make a move, makes arrangements for any possible turn of events, anticipates and plans against any problems, and then acts assertively, without taking a chance. He does not take his job lightly, feels responsible to complete the project he undertakes. Struggles for victory at any cost – it is easier for him to suffer defeat than settle for a compromise. In emergency situations his redundant caution disappears without any trace.


This is exactly how I defined myself as Hamlet-esque the other day.



> 4. Good vs. evil. He never does things he considers as evil, and is very intolerable to evil in others. However, his ethical theory is based on his own principles, without consideration for customs and authority. Sometimes his views on problems of good and evil are very original. In any case he consequently acts on them and insistently defends them.


I am an ubermensch yes. I mean I step over people's sensitivities all the time, but I have demonstrated my strong sense of justice plenty of times here. Maybe why some you would have typed me at Fi. 



> 5. *Attentive to people. He is sometimes even imposing and demanding, sympathizes with them, tries to rescue them during hard times. It is not so easy to get along with him, since he is not lighthearted in his attitude towards life. More likely he is a good family man/woman. He expresses his feelings for his partner not so much through material care, as with dramatic narratives and warnings against possible dangers.* The latter quality is quite important for his dual (The Inspector) who is not very capable of forecasting future events. You may call him late at night; to your question "Did I wake you up?" he will reply cheerfully "You did!" (The Humanist, who also tends to empathize, will nevertheless reply "Not at all" in a tone of voice that will make you feel ashamed).


Bolded is spot on. 

If I got woken up like that, I would be pissed more than anything.



> 6. Unaesthetic in routine. He does not like to take care of routine chores in presence of others as a rule, in general unable to work while being watched. If he can, he will send everyone away to run an errand. He is very fearful that his movements would seem clumsy, unaesthetic.


YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS.



> 7. "Proud". He has a characteristic seemingly arrogant way of carrying himself. People may get an impression that he is acting, beefing up his own importance. He is a good leader.


Oh yes.

I don't simply pull things out of my ass people, this goes further than quadra values.


----------



## Dangerose

> Challengers/Trophies: EIE (ENFj) IEI (INFp)
> 
> These are the types who unconsciously throw a "gauntlet" down for their opponents. They know on an almost subliminal level exactly who they are looking for, and anyone who does not fit the bill will be subjected to a rather flakey, hot-cold game of courting tag. As a result, they may appear (both to others and to themselves) rather amorphous and can take on qualities of the other romantic attitudes, depending on the situation and who they are "challenging."
> 
> They may, for example, give the victim half his aggressor, the psuedo-aggressor a little victim, the caregiver a bit of his child, etc. They react best, however, to those who do not "break" as a result of their games, but grant them a level of autonomy. Healthy examples of this type will have a sense of self-esteem, and may think of themselves as the "prize" that will be given only to the rightful owner.


Is that what you were talking about @Remnants?
anyways don't relate to this one, used to relate to Turandot a bit or that kind of thing but I've never thought of myself as a prize to be won lol, always confused me as a plot point in things
and I'm just not that...aggressive or whatever it is, don't tend to think of people as having to prove something to me
(I realize you said to not put stock in them but I'm just saying)



ElectricSlime said:


> Bolded is interesting, cause another user did mention that I seemed like I wanted to be perceived as an asshole. And it's true, because being a "loner" (still a sociable one) and an asshole gives you the space to say what needs to be said without being bogged down too much by affections and loyalties. Allows me to filter myself less.


think this is a common thing, you don't come off to me like such a jerk that you need to be reprimanded for it, or that much of a poser either just a little  but it reminded me of this:


















which yeah is harsher and different from what I had in mind but just...similar concept, there are a lot of reasons for acting asshole/loner-ish that aren't being so-last or Fe PoLR, it can be a way to buy freedom or to play the 'jester/voice of truth' or it just seems cool 



ElectricSlime said:


> Hold on, not solely. The EIE Reinin dichotomies are the perfect fit for me (except for like one I guess). Not an absolute notion, but a helpful one for sure. And I feel Se valuing somehow...
> 
> Also this:
> 
> is me.


have a friend who is similar, no idea of her type, it's weird and terrifying to me lol
Why do you do it 



> Also your Si sucks, and there's nothing wrong with that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


did you read the part about going on a quest for a scent that reminded me of my grandparent's house or identifying a scent on the street with my grandmother and then finding the perfume? do you think that's not Si or Si-seeking or...?

(I ask not to be annoying but because I kinda want to have bad Si and I'm not sure if I underestimate it, so I'm trying to be very honest about it and think of examples of good Si in myself, think I consciously value ignoring Si. But I will notice sometimes like...once a year or something I'll eat breakfast and then will have a sensation that I ate the exact right combination and amount of foods that...ugh it sounds really disgusting out loud, but that feels like Si maybe?)


----------



## Asd456

owlet said:


> Yeah, that's the issue because I've been told my multiple people I'm not Te ego. Still, Fe PoLR is the only one I really relate to (which may just be due to other factors, who knows).


That's interesting. Maybe consider why you still pay attention to Fe, even if it's Fe polr. I don't think you're Te ego but if you relate to Fe polr, do you relate to Te creative as well or no?



owlet said:


> I'm not sure with the fireworks idea for communicating with a dual type - personally I'm not drawn to any particular function. I am curious about the Ni and Ti valuing idea. If you can explain further, that would be helpful.
> Perhaps. I'd be interested if you could explain the connection with sp-first.


I don't really take duality seriously as well. I actually think enneagram is more significant in terms of compatibility. I'll respond to your other questions but before that, curious if you have any thoughts on Ni, Ni base or relate to my post about Ni (to Nissa Nissa)?



Nissa Nissa said:


> Ok, interesting, so...just like the descriptions of Ni
> I don't relate, I guess I like some things about time, but I don't think I'm focused on change. It's difficult for me to conceptualize seeing the world that way, I'm impressed that you think like that!
> 
> There were some quotes I liked that I used to think were Ni and I related to but I think are both by Ne users anyways
> "The dragon is time, it has no beginning and no end, so all things come round again"
> "I imagine death so much it feels more like a memory"
> 
> But yes, your way of thinking is apparently real and that's probably Ni
> 
> it's confusing to me, but interesting


It's a focus on change and direction. Kind of like a linear progression of sequence of events leading to a future outcome. I can feel like an outlier sometimes because I'm aware that I'm in the minority in terms of my way of thinking and communication style. Tbh I don't think Ni is impressive or special or anything like that, it's just described more favorably compared to the rest, unfortunately.



Wisteria said:


> (Why are saying it's not your problem? what does have to do with anything?)
> 
> I was not saying I disagree with socionics. I was pointing out that people can relate to descriptions for lots of reasons.


It's not my problem because it's not my problem. You're going on and on complaining about Socionics like I care or something. You think their Ni descriptions can be associated with an introverted nature in general and it's described in a way that any introverted or withdrawn person can relate to? It's not my problem. You think people can relate to their descriptions for whatever reason? It's not my problem. I don't even care that you contradicted yourself because you don't think you're disagreeing with Socionics but you want to complain about their Ni descriptions and you want to complain about relating to Ni base and Se suggestive despite the fact that you're Si base but whatever, I don't care because it's not my problem. Do I look like a Socionics rep? No offense but you're just not getting the hint. It's not my problem, I don't care, done with this conversation, keep it moving, etc. 



Tad Cooper said:


> Thanks thats helpful!! So youd prefer to rely on yourself than others because you trust yourself and know what you can do? It seems almost 8ish to me, because of the autonomy and not relying on others?


I trust myself above all else so it's kind of like why should I trust you to begin with if that makes sense. As a result, I'm more guarded and it's harder for me to let people in. Yeah I'm not a type 8 but as an ENTJ, Sexual 6 I value self-sufficiency, autonomy, strength, etc. I kind of idealize the embodiment of strength/power/dominance which is related to the Sexual 6 subtype and HA Se but I'm still a core 6, not type 8. If you have additional questions, let me know!



Mr Castelo said:


> So-last people are not the most... charismatic or engaging people, and there's often a sense that they're "disconnected" from the flow of the group, like they're clueless about it.


You think I'm clueless? lol


----------



## Paradigm

Wisteria said:


> The link that Paradigm posted a little while ago was quite useful for the type descriptions https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/ but it stuck between two types then the comparisons come in handy. 5 might make sense for you but I don't know enough to be sure tbh!


Sorry to butt in, but nothing @Tad Cooper has said is 5ish. At all. The only Withdrawn type I could see for her atm is maybe 9. Why do you think 5?



ElectricSlime said:


> Heck I’d even consider Sp/Sx if 6 and SP weren’t such a hypochondriac and people contact phobia combination as my mother demonstrates it.


Really, dude? :dry:

Your mom kinda sounds more like she has an anxiety disorder, though that's a theory running on very little evidence. But I just... Really?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Asd456 said:


> It's not my problem because it's not my problem. You're going on and on complaining about Socionics like I care or something. You think their Ni descriptions can be associated with an introverted nature in general and it's described in a way that any introverted or withdrawn person can relate to? It's not my problem. You think people can relate to their descriptions for whatever reason? It's not my problem. I don't even care that you contradicted yourself because you don't think you're disagreeing with Socionics but you want to complain about their Ni descriptions and you want to complain about relating to Ni base and Se suggestive despite the fact that you're Si base but whatever, I don't care because it's not my problem. Do I look like a Socionics rep? No offense but you're just not getting the hint. It's not my problem, I don't care, done with this conversation, keep it moving, etc.


Indeed, your problem is that you have sand in your vagina. The one complaining and throwing a tantrum here is you. Quoting the theory is one thing, interpreting it and applying it in relation to an object/subject is another. We call that an assertion. No problem there, but if one questions that assertion it’s not only about the theory but also about your interpretation. She brought up that the attributes you saw in owlet to put forth the Ni hypothesis were typical introvert traits in general. A valid point. You don’t have to argue with it if you don’t care, but no need to be a cunt about it either.

Also telling someone to take it to the theory if she’s dissatisfied with something rather than reason it out here by discussing it with you is akin to saying you’re taking the theory at face value yourself, but you were just saying you didn’t take the duality factor seriously, which shows that you’re not above questioning it with others here yourself. Hypocritical don’t you think ?

Now I’m gonna use my glorious Ni myself and predict that you’ll simply drop in and tell me off (to look strong and confrontational eh? I’m a cp6 too so I know what it’s like), rather than be reasonable about things. I still hold a small hope because LIEs are rational and honest IME.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> Really, dude? :dry:
> 
> Your mom kinda sounds more like she has an anxiety disorder, though that's a theory running on very little evidence. But I just... Really?


You got me. She’s also Gamma (with a small chance of Delta), so it doesn’t really help.


----------



## Asd456

@ElectricSlime So I'm a cunt and I have sand in my vagina, lmao ok, if you want to resort to personal attacks and insults that's fine, I'll let you have your little moment right now. 

I didn't disagree with her, I wasn't arguing with or against her and I'm not taking the theory at face value. Wrong, dumb conclusions. I just didn't care about her input. It's simple. Now go away. 

BTW you're not even a 6, more like 7 Sx/So or So/Sx. If you want to be the CP 6 and puff up your little chest and act tough or something, I'll let you have your moment. Doesn't bother me.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Asd456 said:


> @ElectricSlime So I'm a cunt and I have sand in my vagina, lmao ok, if you want to resort to personal attacks and insults that's fine, I'll let you have your little moment right now.
> 
> I didn't disagree with her, I wasn't arguing with or against her and I'm not taking the theory at face value. Wrong, dumb conclusions. I just didn't care about her input. It's simple. Now go away.
> 
> BTW you're not even a 6, more like 7 Sx/So or So/Sx. If you want to be the CP 6 and puff up your little chest and act tough or something, I'll let you have your moment. Doesn't bother me.


Nuance, you acted like a cunt. I don’t know you in the slightest, so I don’t have anything personal against you and nothing to say about your character.

And you just lived up to my expectations. Does that mean I get to be a Ni dom who can see the future now~

Trust me I fucking wish I was a Seven, but fear of the outside world, information addiction and withdrawing tendencies to hoard myself is a thing and kinda steps on the fear of avoiding the void and being occupied. I have to deal with the cards fate gave me. I do behave like a charming narcissistic rogue, but that hardly has to do with my fears and motivations. And yeah, the fact that you tried to type me based on that is rather telling of the quality of your insights.

Edit: In fact I take it back, 7s are irresponsible and shallow, and often disloyal, I’m good at 6w5.


----------



## owlet

Came back to do replies, but first: please @*ElectricSlime* and @*Asd456* quit it. It'll just get the thread closed and you guys may get an infraction. It's not worth it.

Edit: head like a sieve, accidentally posted replies in a new post rather than here :coolest:


----------



## Darkbloom

Just wanted to say I'm gonna respond tomorrow or day after, can't resist thanking posts too early.


Good night :sleepytime:


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> Came back to do replies, but first: please @ElectricSlime and @Asd456 quit it. It'll just get the thread closed and you guys may get an infraction. It's not worth it.
> 
> (Will edit after with replies.)


How is it your business anyway ?

Let other people have at it if they want to.

Edit: I know how to ride the line, I’ll pull out if it gets too heated.


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> How is it your business anyway ?
> 
> Let other people have at it if they want to.


It's against the rules and a waste of everyone else's time, so you guys can either quit it or I'll just report the posts. Your choice.


----------



## Mr Castelo

ElectricSlime said:


> How is it your business anyway ?
> 
> Let other people have at it if they want to.


You do realize if the thread gets closed for review, that's everyone's problem, right?

Plus, discussion like that is fruitless and derails the thread -- it's not the first time this has happened.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Fair enough.

I don’t understand why threads have to be closed for mods to do the work though, first forum I come across that operates like that.


----------



## owlet

Wisteria said:


> The link that Paradigm posted a little while ago was quite useful for the type descriptions https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/ but it stuck between two types then the comparisons come in handy. 5 might make sense for you but I don't know enough to be sure tbh!


I second this source @Tad Cooper - it's a really well-written one overall. I'm curious which type you're thinking for Tad currently Wisteria. I was thinking possibly 6 or 8, but I'm not sure currently. (Also, thanks for giving input on Tad  It's been interesting to see you guys discussing it.)



Asd456 said:


> That's interesting. Maybe consider why you still pay attention to Fe, even if it's Fe polr. I don't think you're Te ego but if you relate to Fe polr, do you relate to Te creative as well or no?


Fe makes me uncomfortable, probably due to other factors that mean I'm not great in social situations. I do relate to an extent to Te creative, but I think Fi base is a better fit for me. I'm curious about you saying IEI because that would imply 3D Ne - do you see a lot of Ne going on, even in the background?



> I don't really take duality seriously as well. I actually think enneagram is more significant in terms of compatibility. I'll respond to your other questions but before that, curious if you have any thoughts on Ni, Ni base or relate to my post about Ni (to Nissa Nissa)?


This?


> I have a weird relationship with time, kind of obsessed with it, lol. Not in the literal sense but obsessed/fascinated in the abstract sense. I view time as a continuum, everything is connected and the past is linked to the present and future. I waste a lot of time thinking about long-term scenarios and implications, whatever variable needs to be applicable to the future, a lot of plotting, calculating, etc. which makes me annoyingly serious all the time. It's a focus on trying to predict/calculate the future. I like history because it's like a timeline of the world and with that you can analyze and predict future trends. I want to know what's going on in the world and the general direction of everything. Kind of like a focus on a sense of change. Do you relate to that?


That description of time doesn't seem to fit with how my brain works. I'm not obsessed with time, but I do think towards the future. I've relaxed a lot since my teens, partly because of actively trying to slow my mind down and take things easy (because of anxiety). I can easily see what I believe to be future trends and I'm often not wrong, but I don't look at everything, so I'm likely just looking at areas I'm knowledgeable about, with that knowledge giving me the ability to predict. On the other hand, I'm not very interested in what goes on in the world beyond things I'm studying and looking too much at the world makes me stressed because it's too much.


----------



## Dangerose

no idea what y'all are arguing about

few things about Ni before I sleep, if anyone can see Ni ego or...idk

Predicting future trends: seems boring and it's weird to me to focus on the future because I might be dead in the future, I can't understand being so focused on life-plans when you could get hit by a bus the next day, so many things could go wrong

Don't mean this in 6ish way or anything but the idea of focusing so much on an immaterial happiness based in another dimension, basically, which you might not ever reach, basing anything on the idea of comparison like that, doesn't really make sense to me, would I even feel the difference? I think it's one reason I had trouble sticking to a major or anything at college, the idea of making myself miserable for four, six, eight years so I'll have more money in five, seven, ten years, is really unbelievable to me, life is INCREDIBLY short and in a way it seems like a waste to pursue a goal, not that I don't have goals kinda but it has to be about the moment

Predicting future trends, no idea if I do that, tend to be bad at it (I was telling everyone how stupid they were for thinking Trump would actually be elected president haha), of course I don't really follow politics, I don't do it much when watching shows or whatever but I specifically try not to, hate it when people try to ruin the ends of things with logic

I'm not a long-term person at all basically, I like thinking about time in a way, more in a 'time sublimated out of time' way though, like imagining separated points of time touching through a veil, but I'm definitely more intrigued by the past, the future scares me (I DIE there)

I mean the future doesn't scare me generally speaking but I hate seeing a long-term plan because then I'm like 'oh in ten years oh wait that's...an eighth of my life, if I'm lucky?' and anything seems pointless if it's some LARGE percentage of my entire mortal existence :/ 

for such a reason Ni can seem petty to me

I'm obsessed with time in the sense that I'm aware it's always running out and always trying to find ways to make the most of it.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

owlet said:


> It's against the rules and a waste of everyone else's time, so you guys can either quit it or I'll just report the posts. Your choice.


Since you have been talking about your instincts lately, I think this kind of thing is Social? You do police threads often and talk about the effect it has on other people, so that does give the impression that you have some concern for the social environment, to the point of trying to control it even. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> I mean the future doesn't scare me generally speaking but I hate seeing a long-term plan because then I'm like 'oh in ten years oh wait that's...an eighth of my life, if I'm lucky?' and anything seems pointless if it's some LARGE percentage of my entire mortal existence :/


Kinda relate to that. Like, I might start thinking how if I save up X amount then in Y amount of years it'll be this much (as an example), but... then I'll also be Y amount older and ugh, that's too old. And I have limited amount of time so that's horrible. Too many limits. :frustrating:


----------



## owlet

Remnants said:


> Since you have been talking about your instincts lately, I think this kind of thing is Social? You do police threads often and talk about the effect it has on other people, so that does give the impression that you have some concern for the social environment, to the point of trying to control it even.


Thanks for the input! It's more that I find it very tiresome personally to have threads closed when I'm replying to stuff in them. I don't like inconvenience for no good reason. I don't think my motivation is very, err, altruistic in that way (of course social is not intrinsically altruistic - I'm not really commenting on social directly).


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Since we have been talking about socionics lately...

I am an EII through and through, and always will be. But lately, I have found myself opening up to more parts of myself. I think I am getting in touch with my...animus though it's still hard to accept that part of me. He is strong at Te though and I have been getting these spontaneous urges to stay on task and accomplish things on time, which I have never had before in my life. 

Also, trying to understand Ni-Se can clash with my "flow" and hurt my head a little, but I think I have also been understanding that better. I still prefer to stay far away from Se, though, specially when paired with Fi-PoLR. Actually, Fi-PoLR hurts worse than Se. Anyways, recently I have been getting into trying to tap into my unconscious, though I don't like staying there because it turns into a semi-trance state I get stuck in. I have been using tarot cards as one method of tapping into that, though sometimes it rips open something and all this...terror and trauma...not just mine, though related to my worst fears, come flooding through. It's awful. I don't necessarily think this is Ni, mostly just Fi but yeah, I don't know, I do feel quite different from your regular EII though, at this point in my psychological/spiritual development.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Okay, going back on track now.



ElectricSlime said:


> Speaking of which, how would you describe an ILI Sx/So (E5, E6 or E1 isn't very important, there should be common factors).


I'm mainly using myself as a frame of reference here, but I'd imagine that they would be more "loose" than me (i.e less guarded/reserved), and more willing to seek intensity and bonding with other people. Probably a bit less pragmatic too, and more emotionally involved. Less cautious, more "bold" and risk-taking. I don't think they would necessarily be more extroverted, perhaps not even more social, but definitely more "romantic" and idealistic. So I guess I'm thinking of someone who is pretty introverted, but more willing to dissolve boundaries with others.



> Bolded is interesting, cause another user did mention that I seemed like I wanted to be perceived as an asshole. And it's true, because being a "loner" (still a sociable one) and an asshole gives you the space to say what needs to be said without being bogged down too much by affections and loyalties. Allows me to filter myself less.


Some time ago you said that different people bring out different aspects of you and that you can get "stuck" in those specific aspects. I'm guessing that setting yourself to be perceived as an asshole works as a kind of defense mechanism for that. I believe it's a human thing to be shaped by people's expectations, but I do think some people are more "resistant" to that than others. In any case, you definitely have some strong focus on the other, whether you realize it or not. Could be HA Fe, but I'm also thinking that it falls in line with So. You know those labels that people put in others -- "the jock", "the nerd", "the leader", etc. -- I think those come from the Social instinct, it's related to how you and others fit in a certain function/role in a group, and how others see you. Just some thoughts.



> Well my boundaries are initial strong walls that I put up, but I can dissolve them easily too. I still feel the need to put them up cause again, I don't want to have anyone going and leaving at will without my consent. Anyone who tries to dig into my personal affairs and motives behind my back gets cut off.
> 
> Though I do wonder how much impact w5 has in all this.


Well, type 6 has issues with trust, so I don't image them to be the most open people either. But what do you mean with not wanting to have anyone going and leaving without your consent? Sounds a bit controlling.



> Good to know but to be fair, my posts usually aren't as lengthy as the last one was, it's mostly that I could talk about myself all day long :smug:


Hmm, every ENTP I know seems to be a bit narcissistic, I wonder what's up with that.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Speaking of Ni, I don't relate to the stuff about planning like 10-20 years ahead in the future. Really, fuck that, I have more stuff to figure out in the present and near-future. I do think a lot about the future, but it's more abstractly rather than realistically speaking, if that makes sense. Like the descriptions say, I feel detached from wordly affairs, so stuff like planning how much money I'm going to make in ten years is just not in my mind (of course I want to make enough money to survive and I strive for that, but that's beside the point). I wouldn't even say that I plan ahead that much, or at least it doesn't look like planning to me -- I just have a sense of direction in my life that I want to follow. I don't stop and consciously draw a map about how I think my life is going to be, but rather, I feel that it's leading me to somewhere and that I should "trust the signs". I do _some_ planning, but that's mostly for the immediate future.


----------



## Jest_Please

Consent is very much given. I still consider myself pretty new here, as I'm not often here, but I'd love to here what people think of me and hopefully not get lost in the noise.


----------



## Asd456

owlet said:


> Came back to do replies, but first: please @*ElectricSlime* and @*Asd456* quit it. It'll just get the thread closed and you guys may get an infraction. It's not worth it.





owlet said:


> It's against the rules and a waste of everyone else's time, so you guys can either quit it or I'll just report the posts. Your choice.


A few things I want to clarify. Already peaced out of the conversation when he called me a cunt. There's nothing to quit and there's nothing to report because I did not break any forum rules. I don't resort to personal attacks and I don't have time for games and pointless drama. I don't get off on it. I'm not that person. 



owlet said:


> Fe makes me uncomfortable, probably due to other factors that mean I'm not great in social situations. I do relate to an extent to Te creative, but I think Fi base is a better fit for me. I'm curious about you saying IEI because that would imply 3D Ne - do you see a lot of Ne going on, even in the background?
> 
> 
> This?
> 
> That description of time doesn't seem to fit with how my brain works. I'm not obsessed with time, but I do think towards the future. I've relaxed a lot since my teens, partly because of actively trying to slow my mind down and take things easy (because of anxiety). I can easily see what I believe to be future trends and I'm often not wrong, but I don't look at everything, so I'm likely just looking at areas I'm knowledgeable about, with that knowledge giving me the ability to predict. On the other hand, I'm not very interested in what goes on in the world beyond things I'm studying and looking too much at the world makes me stressed because it's too much.


Regarding Fe, I have an ENFJ friend and basically she's not that great at Fe as well. It makes her uncomfortable, she's kind of socially awkward, she's not great in social situations, etc. But she's still aware of it. So my point is if it's still a focus of attention, I think it's something to consider. Fe doesn't mean you have social grace.

Yeah I agree, I don't see 3D Ne. I do see Fi but not sure if it's base or demonstrative. I see Ti over Te because you tend to explain yourself and ask for clarifications and definitions more than you focus and elaborate on tangible details. For example, @Nissa Nissa I can see her Te because she still presents objective, tangible facts, almost as if there's weight to it. 

As for your stacking, I'm leaning more Sp/Sx. My impression is that you're private, detached, and more removed than involved almost as if you want to keep people at a distance, like there's a barrier between you and others. I think you prefer one-on-one and I think you're invested in your interests with a noticeable attachment to it. 

I'm not obsessed with time in the literal sense but time is a factor that I pay attention to. Like you, I think towards the future. For example after this shitshow I'm thinking about the future and I'm thinking if I should invest more of my time here, is it worth it? Kind of like thinking about the future and trying to assess the odds for the most favorable and beneficial outcome.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> I'm mainly using myself as a frame of reference here, but I'd imagine that they would be more "loose" than me (i.e less guarded/reserved), and more willing to seek intensity and bonding with other people. Probably a bit less pragmatic too, and more emotionally involved. Less cautious, more "bold" and risk-taking. I don't think they would necessarily be more extroverted, perhaps not even more social, but definitely more "romantic" and idealistic. So I guess I'm thinking of someone who is pretty introverted, but more willing to dissolve boundaries with others.


See that's interesting because as a currently self typed extroverted type, I feel I'm actually much less risk taking and wild than what an extroverted sx/so or so/sx type would entail (except like 5) if we follow that line of logic. I'm hardly the rockstar, sexual provocateur that goes on a stroll around town, takes ecstasy and organizes an orgy. Passionate in romance and merging tendencies ? Absolutely. Intellectually aggressive ? Definitely. Frustrated with reality and idealistic ? For sure. But I'm not the wild thrill seeking one that experiments new things every week ends, goes to concerts and lives like a phoenix. I can abuse the booze though. But compared to some people I know ? I'm pretty low key. I'll pick staying over at a girl's house, have sex and play dance dance revolution or drinking and playing video games with a friend over the wild life. 

It's funny asd said I was 7 Sx/so or So/Sx, because I have friends that are that obvious archetype, and they call me the serious one who needs to loosen up a bit and get out of my books. I'm the one warning them about the retardedness of the get-rich-quick schemes they get caught into, or about trying out coke at that weird dude's house. It's like those guys have no concern whatsoever nor awareness that the closer you fly to the sun, the harder you crash.



> Some time ago you said that different people bring out different aspects of you and that you can get "stuck" in those specific aspects. I'm guessing that setting yourself to be perceived as an asshole works as a kind of defense mechanism for that.


Probably. I haven't said it but it's also probably a defense mechanism that I employ as a cop out to push away some people rather than deal with my fear of rejection and potential betrayal. 



> I believe it's a human thing to be shaped by people's expectations, but I do think some people are more "resistant" to that than others. In any case, you definitely have some strong focus on the other, whether you realize it or not. Could be HA Fe, but I'm also thinking that it falls in line with So. You know those labels that people put in others -- "the jock", "the nerd", "the leader", etc. -- I think those come from the Social instinct, it's related to how you and others fit in a certain function/role in a group, and how others see you. Just some thoughts.


It used to be less that way, I've become more self conscious and validation seeking in the past year. Not that it wasn't ever the case before (Fe HA would justify a lot of things) but yeah, definitely became more significant not too long ago.

Btw I use those labels to paint a picture to people here of how I am off these boards, but there's still a part of me speculating. It took me aback for example when my ex said she first perceived me as "macho" but was later surprised that I was actually more soft and willing to bend myself in four in the rare instances where trust is truly established at close distance. I can be rather terrible at determining how others see me, which is why I always like comments that tell me that I'm doing good. It kinda sucks to learn that someone you thought you vibed well with was actually alienated by your behavior.



> Well, type 6 has issues with trust, so I don't image them to be the most open people either. But what do you mean with not wanting to have anyone going and leaving without your consent? Sounds a bit controlling.


I like to regulate the distance and pace of my relationships (friends or otherwise), which is why I'm sensitive and understanding of someone telling me to go slower.

Someone intruding in my life and going around asking questions about private stuff is like asking me to go apeshit and tell you to get lost. Hmmm funnily enough that has only happened with dudes, maybe I would mind it less if it was a hot girl stalking me lol. But anyway just fuck no. It may seem like a given but I know too many people who are cool with an acquaintance walking up to them and asking them about their sex life, and they actually start talking about it without their SO knowing *facepalms*



> Hmm, every ENTP I know seems to be a bit narcissistic, I wonder what's up with that.


EIEs are the narcissistic ones ! But yeah Fe HA is a bitch. Many of your "mastermind" brothers are also pretty narcissistic :wink:


----------



## mp2

I think I'm probably LII again :crazy: though I'm really only 52/48 sure about LII over EII. I am pretty certain about Se PolR, so all I need to do is place one of the Fe/Te or Fi/Ti functions, but this has been much harder than I think it should be. It's hard to see 3D Fe though, even 2D seems like a major stretch. PolR Fe isn't out of the question, but it does appear to be very unlikely. Ignoring Te also appears to make more sense than ignoring Fe, but this becomes pretty difficult to spot. 

Ti/Fi also make sense as role and leading functions, but I can't even get close to telling which is which.  The role function appears to be the most difficult to understand, in that any information I find on the role function appears to be more of a boilerplate that says "You _can_ do [generic function description here], but not really. You see [function activities] as important, but only a little." so the role function is definitely out. I probably won't be able to spot my leading or ignoring function either. 

So, it comes down to ole' faithful suggestive. And here, Fe makes more sense than Te, but only slightly. 

Though, after this long, I may just have to settle on INXP and XII. Reading jung, researching MBTI dichotomies, function stacks, Keirsy temperements, and socionics, taking Enneagram into account, taking upbringing and nature/nurture and mental illness into account, and getting feedback online and irl, it all points to a coin toss between LII/EII _and_ INFP/INTP. I was hoping at least figuring out what I was in one system would be the key to figuring out what I am in the other, but no luck :frustrating: 

That's really why I keep considering the other 14 types, other types I could never be, because I get tired of the frustration of knowing I'm one of these without knowing which one, for over 10 years now. And the more I learn, the closer I get to 50/50 and the more frustrating it gets. 

I'm starting to think maybe X is a valid preference. But, this doesn't seem likely and I think it probably is another result of the same frustration that's led me to mistype as all the other types :blushed: 

I really don't like the idea of accepting I'm LII though, because I worry I'm not as smart or as competent compared to other LIIs  and at the same time it only seems to remind me of my weaknesses and shortcomings, and it seems like I'm only romanticizing the idea of being an NF or SJ.

Then, when I realize this, it looks like something an NF that thinks they're an NT that wants to be NF or SJ might say, but I have no way of telling if this is also due to some desire to be an NF, so the cycle continues :ball:


----------



## nep2une

Jest_Please said:


> Consent is very much given. I still consider myself pretty new here, as I'm not often here, but I'd love to here what people think of me and hopefully not get lost in the noise.


Well, I think we'd have to get to know you a little to be able to pass judgment. So basically come up with something to tell us about yourself, ask questions, say what you're confused about, etc. Something like that. 



Mr Castelo said:


> Yeah, no way you're EIE, ILE seems spot on so far.


You probably are not familiar with me, but if you are, would you say that in your opinion, I'm not EIE either? Maybe IEI instead?


----------



## Dangerose

Asd456 said:


> Yeah I agree, I don't see 3D Ne. I do see Fi but not sure if it's base or demonstrative. I see Ti over Te because you tend to explain yourself and ask for clarifications and definitions more than you focus and elaborate on tangible details. For example, @Nissa Nissa I can see her Te because she still presents objective, tangible facts,* almost as if there's weight to it.*


Can you elaborate on this? (both about me and owlet and just the functions because I'm slow with things like this need people to connect all the dots for me)
also :laughing: at bolded


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> Because the best part of driving is driving, and being in a stroller is like being in a tiny miniature prison and you are at the mercy of whoever is driving the stroller and you can't even move your arms or legs or do anything but be in a stroller, don't think I have a conscious memory of being in a stroller but I think it happened at some point, think I can vaguely remember desperately straining to get out, kinda feels me with the feeling of not having brushed your teeth for a while :angry:


I can't even drive 

Loved my stroller, I was about 2 maybe and my uncle spilled beer on it by accident, I cried so much :laughing:
Think that was my first memory.

But for some reason I have vague memory of feeling the way you described once, think because I had to go to kindergarten, I was a tiny bit older and we already retired my stroller but I think we were in a hurry so mom thought it would go faster with a stroller.
Or maybe I was just confused?

(how do I remember those things?)




> Hm, interesting
> I've had it that I've suddenly felt like...someone sat next to me and I was suddenly swept over with sadness or something, like they were radiating sadness and it had something to do with the way they were sitting or something
> and I've consciously tried, as part of amateur detective-work :laughing: to copy how someone is standing and realizing you can get some sort of sense of how they are feeling, but it's definitely something I have to think about
> But I'm not 100% sure that it's Si anyways


It's not very conscious for me, I couldn't do it if I thought about it so much I think or it would be different then.



> I do enjoy it to some extent, I remember going with a friend to the men's cologne section, and trying to find perfumes that would be a good match for some characters we'd made up, it was really fun to try to match personality to cologne
> But I feel like I need some sort of story like that, otherwise it...I don't know, just makes me angry on some strange level, not at anyone but it's just like the feeling of sitting still for too long, too much focus on such a small detail?


I do stories and associations and such too automatically, and sometimes I bring Donald Trump with me too  but I don't relate to that last sentence.




> (I'm very particular about the perfumes I wear, maybe more the idea of them than anything though...like the one I'm wearing now (that's not my signature perfume so it's a little sad) I bought online just based on some historical merit, I'll buy things based on the advertisement too  or well once I saw an advertisement I really liked but I hated the lotion so I bought another one and tried hard to pretend that it was the one from the advertisement XD)


Same-ish, also pretty bottles :frustrating:

I also like...in my head imagine I have a different thing from what I actually have, like I'll somehow convince myself something's the same as the other thing, hard to explain.



> I think I've taken make-up off my face (beside stage make-up) once in my life, it's always gone by morning :shocked: never understood why that was supposed to be a thing, maybe I don't wear enough make-up or something, doesn't seem to cause problems
> probably wouldn't wear it if I had to specifically take it off


:laughing:
Well when I do sleep with makeup on I don't really notice anything wrong with my face the next day so 
But my eyelashes get weird and some fall out.



> definitely don't relate, though I can be similar with candles, love having a scented candle and I'm tempted by all of them


Love candles but they are distracting to me for some reason, whenever I light one up all I can think about is that candle, usually get into it for a couple of days and then give up because it's tiring almost to be thinking about candles so much lol
(partly because I put it right next to my bed and I have to be careful with other things around it, and also frustrates me that I get used to it ane can't smell it after a while)



> I hate hair salons a lot, I want to scream when people wash my hair
> 
> I was reminded of this character:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who does a lot of things that make me (and most people) uncomfortable in a Si way, that's almost the point of the character, but I think a lot of normal things make me feel the way most people feel about this


The way he talks about it though :disgust:

But do love getting my hair washed, can't imagine someone not liking it, for a while I actually considered becoming a hairdresser because as a kid I loved them so much and I'd always chase around my little cousin and try to get her to let me do her hair :laughing:



> I often do


For some reason visual things don't feel real to me irl, like I love people pointing out smells and textures and such, I experience them as more real, I often ask "What do I get out of just looking at it?"
But do like looking at some things, but not really in those contexts and I'm more likely to think something visual is overhyped.

______________
Not really connected to anything I'm just in a Si-ish mood from this lol, bought a peach lipgloss, when I wear it I smell exactly like I'm walking around with an open bag of these








:fall:

(see, I love bringing up that kind of thing (thought of it as Fe-ish before?), irl I often send people pictures of scented stuff I bought and such)
(but think that month from now I might cringe at like...so much detail, hard to explain, keep trying to control myself from giving too many details, imagey thing maybe but I thought before it could be EIE)

______________



> hate horror movies but kinda relate to this, felt the same way about the 7th (and my favourite parts were 'daily life at Hogwarts', didn't like the 4th one much for the same reason, 3rd was my favourite because I loved Lupin, and the time-turner, and it was the most 'daily life at Hogwarts' and little magical details


Really didn't like the time turner :frustrating:
But yes, same, loved those daily life at Hogwarts parts, for some reason I don't remember the third one as being like that though but I haven't read Harry Potter in a very long time 



> maybe 2ish/9ish


Yes think it's definitely 9 fix related, kinda associate it with 9w8



> was going to go through whole thing but actually I want to walk around this new city before it gets dark and I need to buy things, I thought your description of Role Ne sounded convincing, I'm thinking about SEI and SEE rn, 1D Si is seeming wrong I think


Thanks for responding to so much! :fall:
And yes think it could make sense, always felt like perceiving dom seemed more right and sensing probably more than intuition.

The thing you deleted, had to read it about 20 times to understand tbh :laughing: , but I like it and kinda relate I think, would say Ne dom makes sense. Not sure what to make of your relationship to Si :/
But N dom seems the most right and I can't see INFJ at all, still considering ENFJ but it seems less likely, would say ENFP>ESFJ>INFP(could see it but not sure what to do with Se PoLR)>ENFJ or something.
Definitely think you're more N-ish than me but hope I'm not using 'N' in a stupid/stereotypical way here  (but don't think I am)


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> ESFP perhaps, but definitely not SEE. Gonna break it to you: you’re a clear Si ego to me.


Mind elaborating?


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> See that's interesting because as a currently self typed extroverted type, I feel I'm actually much less risk taking and wild than what an extroverted sx/so or so/sx type would entail (except like 5) if we follow that line of logic. I'm hardly the rockstar, sexual provocateur that goes on a stroll around town, takes ecstasy and organizes an orgy. Passionate in romance and merging tendencies ? Absolutely. Intellectually aggressive ? Definitely. Frustrated with reality and idealistic ? For sure. But I'm not the wild thrill seeking one that experiments new things every week ends, goes to concerts and lives like a phoenix. I can abuse the booze though. But compared to some people I know ? I'm pretty low key. I'll pick staying over at a girl's house, have sex and play dance dance revolution or drinking and playing video games with a friend over the wild life.
> 
> It's funny asd said I was 7 Sx/so or So/Sx, because I have friends that are that obvious archetype, and they call me the serious one who needs to loosen up a bit and get out of my books. I'm the one warning them about the retardedness of the get-rich-quick schemes they get caught into, or about trying out coke at that weird dude's house. It's like those guys have no concern whatsoever nor awareness that the closer you fly to the sun, the harder you crash.


I always get shocked that people like this even exist in actual reality :laughing:
I like the idea of get-rich-quick thing and like...Se things, but...idk, feel like the most sp person in the world right now 

Don't think sx/so has to be that wild though.
You're still sx/so enough to make me feel like a 5 year old ISFJ sp 6 :laughing:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Mind elaborating?





> Se as Leading Function
> 
> The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. He or she likes obedience and even subservience in others, since it allows him to "make things happen" more effectively. He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals.
> 
> He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him. However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role. He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.


C'mon Vixey, isn't that the opposite of you ? You're so...nice and leisurely and soft... You're more concerned about your peach smell (Si !) than the power dynamic in the room. Not one to mobilize people, or try and see how much you can push and how much control you can secure. Not one with absurd willpower and fixated upon crushing goals. Also do you see yourself as a go-getter who gets tempered by the challenges life sends your way ? Because that's the way they perceive themselves, masters of their destiny. They're people of action.

That's not to say that Se leads are power hungry psychopaths, but they do these things unconsciously. They will talk loudly across a room because it makes their presence known and is a sign of confidence, and sometimes it's enough to make the weaker ones be complying and willing to give you space (I've noticed it myself).

No instead you talk about food, smells, make up, you notice if your friend is cold, you enjoy having your hair washed and want to wash other people's hair. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiii ! This is all Si ego stuff. Caregiver.

Look at Nissa being afraid to make space in the train (?) to put her bags in and requiring someone else to do it, that's a sign of weak Se and likely unvalued as well.

You're Alpha SF, and irrational imo, thus a SEI.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> I always get shocked that people like this even exist in actual reality :laughing:
> I like the idea of get-rich-quick thing and like...Se things, but...idk, feel like the most sp person in the world right now
> 
> Don't think sx/so has to be that wild though.
> You're still sx/so enough to make me feel like a 5 year old ISFJ sp 6 :laughing:


They're not even that rare either lol. But yeah, I even stay away from drugs because I took some for a very short while and I had some crazy bad trip one time. Became even more paranoid than usual (yikes) and thought my heart would come bursting out of my chest. A near panic attack, literally. I felt like I was in limbo and you know how everything feels hazy in a dream ? I had moments like these. It's like my soul would come out of my body and watch over me at the third person (I could see my body), and then every 5 seconds it would charge back into my body and I'd regain control. At one point all the cars who passed looked the same and seemed to show up at the same time intervals, so I was afraid that my brain was caught in a time loop or something.

Pretty messed up stuff lol.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> C'mon Vixey, isn't that the opposite of you ? You're so...nice and leisurely and soft...


This is an interesting interpretation of me, wonder if everyone in this thread would agree  



> You're more concerned about your peach smell (Si !) than the power dynamic in the room.


I quite like my peach smell but I very much care about power dynamic too, wouldn't say I care more about peach smell.



> Not one to mobilize people, or try and see how much you can push and how much control you can secure.


Agree with first part kinda, not the second.


> Not one with absurd willpower and fixated upon crushing goals.


Not that goal oriented but my willpower is absurd in some ways.
(well to be fair don't think absurd willpower goes against Si ego)



> Also do you see yourself as a go-getter who gets tempered by the challenges life sends your way ? Because that's the way they perceive themselves, masters of their destiny. They're people of action.


Yes I'm not a person of action but I'm also not a person of plenty of SEI things 
My grandma is a SEI and her biggest complaint about me is that I'm aggressive, yell easily, use strong words, do things just because I got told not to, purposely want to overpower, my Se PoLR dad doesn't even understand how I can get with such things.
I'm much more comfortable with raw anger and aggression and aggressive motivations than any alphas I know.



> That's not to say that Se leads are power hungry psychopaths, but they do these things unconsciously. They will talk loudly across a room because it makes their presence known and is a sign of confidence, and sometimes it's enough to make the weaker ones be complying and willing to give you space (I've noticed it myself).


I mean...I'm not sx/so for sure, I'm not in these situations, most situations have little significance to me+I'm a very socially anxious person, so I am soft until I'm not. But most people who got into any kind of conflict with me think I use too much force, I tend to resort to physical threats and such, don't focus on solving the conflict, don't let things end before I get what I want.
Some people can be like that but it's more about other things, for me it's simply about pushing, conflict often feels like a game almost once i'm angry.



> No instead you talk about food, smells, make up, you notice if your friend is cold, you enjoy having your hair washed and *want to wash other people's hair.* Siiiiiiiiiiiiiii ! This is all Si ego stuff. Caregiver.


That tv show guy Nissa mentioned likes to wash people's hair, I never, ever said that :laughing:

And can't smells be powerful? 


But yes I am very...like today I had to pick up a book from copy place thing, don't know what to call it, it's a tiny room and there were many people, I felt uncomfortable and like I was getting in everyone's way but I don't know if it has to be related to Se, and 'mobilizing' people to take care of those things for you can in my opinion be Se too for example.

I think I definitely think in terms of mobilizing people and power but mostly on smaller scale.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> C'mon Vixey, isn't that the opposite of you ? You're so...nice and leisurely and soft... You're more concerned about your peach smell (Si !) than the power dynamic in the room. Not one to mobilize people, or try and see how much you can push and how much control you can secure. Not one with absurd willpower and fixated upon crushing goals. Also do you see yourself as a go-getter who gets tempered by the challenges life sends your way ? Because that's the way they perceive themselves, masters of their destiny. They're people of action.
> No instead you talk about food, smells, make up, you notice if your friend is cold, you enjoy having your hair washed and want to wash other people's hair. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiii ! This is all Si ego stuff. Caregiver.


idk I see Vixey having a little more punch than your description suggests) Though it could be Fe punch



> Look at Nissa being afraid to make space in the train (?) to put her bags in and requiring someone else to do it, that's a sign of weak Se and likely unvalued as well.


Couldn't that be 9 fix kind of thing though? 



> You're Alpha SF, and irrational imo, thus a SEI.


This is seeming like a good typing

do you think ENFP still for me?

I was just watching this yesterday and impressed by Brian Blessed's Se:






don't really know him but the way the other people can't interrupt him at the beginning, even Lee Mack who I think is a Se-dom as well, sheer force (I'm sad he didn't play Robert Baratheon)

googled and saw people online typed him mostly ESE, do you think demonstrative Se can be this way? Or that combo in terms of physical/energetic presence, is what I mean, don't really care about this specific actor

edit: reminds me a bit of Pavarotti who I see generally typed ESE

edit ii: Lee Mack I've been working on the assumption that he is SEE, and David Mitchell seems like an introverted Alpha but I'd love to know which one, or SLI? so if anyone is familiar with them or wants to take a guess I'd appreciate it :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

I had a long response going but this thread kills me.



Vixey said:


> But do love getting my hair washed, can't imagine someone not liking it, for a while I actually considered becoming a hairdresser because as a kid I loved them so much and I'd always chase around my little cousin and try to get her to let me do her hair :laughing:


You did say it, Vixey.


----------



## Darkbloom

I mean I noticed with this friend at college, definitely Si valuing, I come across as less Se than her in a way, like she somehow knows her way around environment (I don't think she'd objectively be characterized like that but like compared to me, and she says she doesn't like confrontation, arguing, tends to let things go when people are rude and such), she's always 'leading' me, we were in computer class together,on one computer, and she was the one actually using the computer even though she's not really that much better with computers, I was helping her, it's always like that with me. And she always asks people when she needs something from them, like she'll think about it and hesitate for a bit but she is much more comfortable with it than I am. Actually when we first started hanging out it was because we had to make a presentation, actually she approached me and another girl because she had no one to do it with,and I was immediately like "You seem like a leader!" (because someone had to be)
But I'd say I'm significantly more...punchy might be good lol and idk, hard to explain.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Wouldn't really use the word "soft" for Vixey, she can be pushy. I don't think that precludes Alpha SF but it's interesting.


----------



## Darkbloom

Immolate said:


> I had a long response going but this thread kills me.
> 
> 
> 
> You did say it, Vixey.


_Do_ her hair (like make pigtails and put hair clips in it and such), not _wash_ it :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Vixey said:


> _Do_ her hair (like make pigtails and put hair clips in it and such), not _wash_ it :laughing:


Hairdresser, tho.

I agree with the arguments for Si ego.



Remnants said:


> Wouldn't really use the word "soft" for Vixey, she can be pushy. I don't think that precludes Alpha SF but it's interesting.


My impression is that she likes to cultivate an image of innocence and play things to her favor that way. Her pushiness has always seemed about emotional provocation.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Not that goal oriented but my willpower is absurd in some ways.
> (well to be fair don't think absurd willpower goes against Si ego)


I agree. What I mean is Si egos, despite having the "willpower" in them, prefer not to stretch themselves for goals and externally defined objectives. To them, enjoying the present moment and doing what they like is more pleasant. And that's what they prefer.



> Yes I'm not a person of action but I'm also not a person of plenty of SEI things
> My grandma is a SEI and her biggest complaint about me is that I'm aggressive, yell easily, use strong words, do things just because I got told not to, purposely want to overpower, my Se PoLR dad doesn't even understand how I can get with such things.
> I'm much more comfortable with raw anger and aggression and aggressive motivations than any alphas I know.


Well some of these things sound like immaturity..? I don't consider Se to correlate with being agressive, wanting to overpower people and throwing tantrums. It's more like a constant awareness of boundaries, what force is needed to obtain something, a physical presence ever expanding and with it a seemingly blunt and pressuring presence (a light vibe), what is the thing in the room most people have their eyes set on and the best way to get there. Si egos have that awareness too, they just prefer to concentrate on their own bodily sensations, those of others, what they enjoy instead of what is of external value in the eyes of others.

And I don't think that the higher Se is in your stack, the better you're at confrontation (although it can help in terms of how comfortable you are with the concept). A level headed and smart Se lead who gets stopped by thugs who want to sell him stuff in an alley isn't gonna uppercut one and pull a german suplex on the other (unless he's trained in martial arts), he'll be smart enough to realize how much at disadvantage he is and will defuse the situation to get out of there. 

Likewise, I'm pretty sure everyone here is in agreement that I'm intuitive. That means my sensing sucks by default. My mom and sister (ESI and SEE probably) have better Se than me. And yet guess who runs back with their tails between their legs when I get sick of their shit and actually get really irritated and confrontational ? Them. The difference is that my Se has to be turned on consciously, while theirs always runs on autopilot. They're more environment aware naturally and are more in touch with their bodies, while my body coordination isn't naturally good and I tend to get caught in my head.



> I mean...I'm not sx/so for sure, I'm not in these situations, most situations have little significance to me+I'm a very socially anxious person, so I am soft until I'm not. But most people who got into any kind of conflict with me think I use too much force, I tend to resort to physical threats and such, don't focus on solving the conflict, don't let things end before I get what I want.
> Some people can be like that but it's more about other things, for me it's simply about pushing, conflict often feels like a game almost once i'm angry.


See, a Se lead wouldn't go overboard (too much) unless under stress, he knows exactly how much force must be applied to get what he wants. I've actually seen Se PoLR correlated with the bottle of ketchup metaphor for some cases before, you either don't do shit and press too much and it gets out all at once. Either at 0% or directly at 100%. Not saying that's your case but I think that's interesting to keep in mind.



> That tv show guy Nissa mentioned likes to wash people's hair, I never, ever said that :laughing:





> But do love getting my hair washed, can't imagine someone not liking it, for a while I actually considered becoming a hairdresser because as a kid I loved them so much and I'd always chase around my little cousin and try to get her to let me do her hair


...



> But yes I am very...like today I had to pick up a book from copy place thing, don't know what to call it, it's a tiny room and there were many people, I felt uncomfortable and like I was getting in everyone's way but I don't know if it has to be related to Se, and 'mobilizing' people to take care of those things for you can in my opinion be Se too for example.


Well a Se PoLR will probably not feel at ease doing that, but I don't think one has to have Se as his program to ask someone more qualified to get a book for her *scratches head*. I mean they're there for that purpose aren't they ?



> I think I definitely think in terms of mobilizing people and power but mostly on smaller scale.


Mind developing ?

The thing is, as @Mr Castelo once said for Enneagram instincts, what you talk about when you're not under scrutiny and at your natural state reveals a lot about yourself, and I think that applies to Socionics as well. You talk about Si things a lot imo (thus hinting quite heavily towards valuing them), more so than Se ones, and what you thought of as Si PoLR or Fe, was actually very much Si stuff and strong one at that in my opinion. I could go back and a make a walls of quotes that shows it if you want me to. 

@Nissa Nissa

Yes ENFp sounds very much right for you. You obviously suck at Si, that I can attest coming from someone in the same boat. Yet I think that you value it, or maybe that's because you're female and I'm male and so our focus will be different lol. But the way you talked about about the future and life being too short higher was obvious Ne-Si valuing, and you tend to generate a lot of random anecdotes in your post that comes out in a sort of messy and explosive manner, which points definitely more towards Ne than Ni. I thought you could be EII but your Fi looks too flexible for that imo.



> Couldn't that be 9 fix kind of thing though?


Well you're the one typing with a 8w7 fix, and I'm not sure I buy into tritype anymore. But yes I guess it could, but I like to think that your type and your Enneagram should correlate to some extent. LSIs 4w3 don't exist for example, and neither do ESEs enneagram 5.



> googled and saw people online typed him mostly ESE, do you think demonstrative Se can be this way? Or that combo in terms of physical/energetic presence, is what I mean, don't really care about this specific actor


I know an MBTI ESTP 7w8 who I used to type at SLE, but I recently decided that he's ESE. First because he fits Alpha better but also because the reasons I typed him as Se dom in JCF (lusty, hedonistic, very attuned to physical pleasures and comforts, tasteful clothing) actually fit very well with Si in socionics. He also exudes Fe (kind of like Robert Baratheon actually) and isn't all that concerned about power dynamics and goals.

In fact I'm starting to think Bobby B in the show might have been Fe dom, because SLEs tend to be more flat by default in terms of emotional expression (like Jaime in the earlier seasons and Bronn in general).


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> _Do_ her hair (like make pigtails and put hair clips in it and such), not _wash_ it :laughing:


IT'S THE SAME THING HOLY SHIT




Immolate said:


> Hairdresser, tho.
> 
> I agree with the arguments for Si ego.
> 
> 
> 
> My impression is that she likes to cultivate an image of innocence and play things to her favor that way. Her pushiness has always seemed about emotional provocation.


Did you say E2 lol ?

As often, we are on the same wavelength.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Immolate said:


> My impression is that she likes to cultivate an image of innocence and play things to her favor that way. Her pushiness has always seemed about emotional provocation.


Well, bad-girlish but also childlike in some ways. Like a Lolita type of thing I guess. Although that's more related to Enneagram (though it could probably go with the caregiver/infantile-thing in some way), and obviously I hate being off-topic.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> IT'S THE SAME THING HOLY SHIT





Immolate said:


> You did say it, Vixey.





















both Si-ish imo but quite different and definitely she did not say anything close to:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> both Si-ish imo but quite different and definitely she did not say anything close to:


*eyes starting to cross*

And that dude you keep bringing up creeps me out.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ElectricSlime said:


> And that dude you keep bringing up creeps me out.


I think that's the point ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> @Nissa Nissa
> 
> Yes ENFp sounds very much right for you. You obviously suck at Si, that I can attest coming from someone in the same boat. Yet I think that you value it, or maybe that's because you're female and I'm male and so our focus will be different lol. But the way you talked about about the future and life being too short higher was obvious Ne-Si valuing, and you tend to generate a lot of random anecdotes in your post that comes out in a sort of messy and explosive manner, which points definitely more towards Ne than Ni. I thought you could be EII but your Fi looks too flexible for that imo.


Ok, thanks)



> Well you're the one typing with a 8w7 fix, and I'm not sure I buy into tritype anymore. But yes I guess it could, but I like to think that your type and your Enneagram should correlate to some extent. LSIs 4w3 don't exist for example, and neither do ESEs enneagram 5.


Well, that's just kinda there and I figure you'd think I was 9 fixed so I was going on your terms, what do you mean I'm not a Fi lead
not sure about correlations, it makes sense to me that there could be an ESE 5 that would be perhaps hard to type.



> I know an MBTI ESTP 7w8 who I used to type at SLE, but I recently decided that he's ESE. First because he fits Alpha better but also because the reasons I typed him as Se dom in JCF (lusty, hedonistic, very attuned to physical pleasures and comforts, tasteful clothing) actually fit very well with Si in socionics. He also exudes Fe (kind of like Robert Baratheon actually) and isn't all that concerned about power dynamics and goals.


Ok, thanks!
I once read a thing about one of the Russian empresses that made an impression on me, like that she ate very heartily and also did a lot of sports, the way it phrased was notable lol, I love that idea of taking the most from both sides of things, it seemed Se-ish to me at the time

(Not just 'living large' but how much is gained in the exchange, the momentum and the journey)



> In fact I'm starting to think Bobby B in the show might have been Fe dom, because SLEs tend to be more flat by default in terms of emotional expression (like Jaime in the earlier seasons and Bronn in general).


I love Robert Baratheon :lovekitty: honestly he is my idol, I think everything should be more like him

Do you think ESE then? I think that's an interesting assessment 

and 7w8 probably?

made a collage for him :fall:










(Not relevant just wasted a lot of my life making collages so I feel like sharing them when the opportunity strikes)


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> *eyes starting to cross*
> 
> And that dude you keep bringing up creeps me out.





Remnants said:


> I think that's the point ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


^yes :skeleton:


----------



## Mr Castelo

ElectricSlime said:


> See that's interesting because as a currently self typed extroverted type, I feel I'm actually much less risk taking and wild than what an extroverted sx/so or so/sx type would entail (except like 5) if we follow that line of logic. I'm hardly the rockstar, sexual provocateur that goes on a stroll around town, takes ecstasy and organizes an orgy. Passionate in romance and merging tendencies ? Absolutely. Intellectually aggressive ? Definitely. Frustrated with reality and idealistic ? For sure. But I'm not the wild thrill seeking one that experiments new things every week ends, goes to concerts and lives like a phoenix. I can abuse the booze though. But compared to some people I know ? I'm pretty low key. I'll pick staying over at a girl's house, have sex and play dance dance revolution or drinking and playing video games with a friend over the wild life.


Well, you have to remember that we're talking about archetypes, and the examples you're bringing up are rather exaggerated. My brother is an Extroverted So/Sx and he certainly doesn't lead a rockstar life. You're thinking in extremes.



> It's funny asd said I was 7 Sx/so or So/Sx, because I have friends that are that obvious archetype, and they call me the serious one who needs to loosen up a bit and get out of my books. I'm the one warning them about the retardedness of the get-rich-quick schemes they get caught into, or about trying out coke at that weird dude's house. It's like those guys have no concern whatsoever nor awareness that the closer you fly to the sun, the harder you crash.


Your friends sound particularly dumb. That being said, sp-last _is_ more reckless than the other subtypes, and type 7 is not the most disciplined/grounded type, not a very balanced combination in general. But I also think that the hedonistic tendencies of type 7 get overstated (especially when it's something that can be present in other types like 8 and 9), I see their opportunism and persuasiveness being more fundamental traits.



> Btw I use those labels to paint a picture to people here of how I am off these boards, but there's still a part of me speculating. It took me aback for example when my ex said she first perceived me as "macho" but was later surprised that I was actually more soft and willing to bend myself in four in the rare instances where trust is truly established at close distance. I can be rather terrible at determining how others see me, which is why I always like comments that tell me that I'm doing good. It kinda sucks to learn that someone you thought you vibed well with was actually alienated by your behavior.


Looks like PoLR Fi + HA Fe. That kind of thinking is very odd to me.



> I like to regulate the distance and pace of my relationships (friends or otherwise), which is why I'm sensitive and understanding of someone telling me to go slower.


Regulating the distance does sound a bit Sp, I'll give you that.



> Someone intruding in my life and going around asking questions about private stuff is like asking me to go apeshit and tell you to get lost. Hmmm funnily enough that has only happened with dudes, maybe I would mind it less if it was a hot girl stalking me lol. But anyway just fuck no. It may seem like a given but I know too many people who are cool with an acquaintance walking up to them and asking them about their sex life, and they actually start talking about it without their SO knowing *facepalms*


Seems just like lack of common sense again. And your writing is really scattered, I don't know if you realized that.



> EIEs are the narcissistic ones ! But yeah Fe HA is a bitch. Many of your "mastermind" brothers are also pretty narcissistic :wink:


I think perhaps they're more arrogant rather than narcissistic, there's a subtle difference.



nep2une said:


> You probably are not familiar with me, but if you are, would you say that in your opinion, I'm not EIE either? Maybe IEI instead?


Yeah, I'm not familiar with your posts, so Idk.


----------



## Darkbloom

Immolate said:


> Hairdresser, tho.
> 
> I agree with the arguments for Si ego.
> 
> 
> 
> My impression is that she likes to cultivate an image of innocence and play things to her favor that way. Her pushiness has always seemed about emotional provocation.


When did I ever do this? 
I'm overly honest and I never said I was innocent.

Pushness is often emotional to some degree and not 'pushing towards goals' or whatever, does it have to mean not Se?  


But anyway, thanks for giving your opinion, SEI is seeming more and more likely, as surprising as it is 


(I'll thank/respond to other things later)


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> both Si-ish imo but quite different and definitely she did not say anything close to:


:laughing:


I'm literally crying from how hard I'm laughing at this entire post :laughing:


----------



## Mr Castelo

I'm typing as 9w1 sp/so btw, in case anyone has something to say about that.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> I'm typing as 9w1 sp/so btw, in case anyone has something to say about that.


Oh so my 9w8 Sp/Sx wasn't too far off. I think I knew an ILI of your stacking (who hooked up with a SEE girl, kinda scary that one), never made sense to me at the time but now it does.

He was very calm and rarely the type to criticize others (he was perfectionistic on himself however) but he told me that people often told him that they were under the impression that he was judging them (which I never thought myself). He was very erudite (one of the few people my age with whom I could actively learn things from when we talked) on a number of subjects and could keep up with my abstract leanings fairly easily, but he was more pragmatic and detail oriented himself. He dressed plainly and his hair was often a mess.

We got along well, but he did lack spice in my opinion. Not very excitable and low key in his laughs and smiles, didn't react to Fe for shit, but not downright anti social the way I see Fe PoLR described sometimes. He was too passive and polite to actually give people a reason to dislike him.

And he VI'd LITERALLY like this, jumped out of my chair when I first saw it: 









Not that VI isn't bullshit but still...

Anything relatable to you ?


----------



## Mr Castelo

ElectricSlime said:


> Oh so my 9w8 Sp/Sx wasn't too far off. I think I knew an ILI of your stacking (who hooked up with a SEE girl, kinda scary that one), never made sense to me at the time but now it does.
> 
> He was very calm and rarely the type to criticize others (he was perfectionistic on himself however) but he told me that people often told him that they were under the impression that he was judging them (which I never thought myself). He was very erudite (one of the few people my age with whom I could actively learn things from when we talked) on a number of subjects and could keep up with my abstract leanings fairly easily, but he was more pragmatic and detailed oriented himself. He dressed plainly and his hair was often a mess.
> 
> We got along well, but he did lack spice in my opinion. Not very excitable and low key in his laughs and smiles, but not downright anti social the way I see Fe PoLR described sometimes. He was too passive and polite to actually give people a reason to dislike him.
> 
> And he VI'd LITERALLY like this, jumped out of my chair when I first saw him:
> View attachment 778297
> 
> 
> Not that VI isn't bullshit but still...
> 
> Anything relatable to you ?


It's fairly relatable (especially the plain clothes and messy hair part). As for that picture, I think I have the exact same look on my eyes.

I'm not very excitable at all, and I barely ever laugh or smile (I've been called robotic a number of times). Some people have disliked me in the past due to my bluntness -- I remember one instance in high school when the class received some work to do, and you could do it in pairs or in group, but I preferred to do it alone. One girl approached me to ask me to join her group, and I said no, she asked me why, and I replied "I don't like working with other people". She just gave me a weird look in response. Yeah, my PoLR Fe is pretty fucking bad. I'm more polite online because it's just easier, and you have time to think things through.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> Well, you have to remember that we're talking about archetypes, and the examples you're bringing up are rather exaggerated. My brother is an Extroverted So/Sx and he certainly doesn't lead a rockstar life. You're thinking in extremes.


Simply going off the descriptions of the stackings.



> Your friends sound particularly dumb. That being said, sp-last _is_ more reckless than the other subtypes, and type 7 is not the most disciplined/grounded type, not a very balanced combination in general. But I also think that the hedonistic tendencies of type 7 get overstated (especially when it's something that can be present in other types like 8 and 9), I see their opportunism and persuasiveness being more fundamental traits.


Yes, they are retards. And Naranjo right ? His E7 profile was always the most (only) palatable to me.




> Looks like PoLR Fi + HA Fe. That kind of thinking is very odd to me.


Is it ? I guess our social retardedness would be inverted. But just for the record, I can actually relate to some PoLR Fe descriptions. Not in the emotionally bland sense, but rather in how they tend to stand out when they don't go along with the emotions of the crowd or appear stand off ish and remote. As a kid I would refuse to dress for halloween on some occasions and be the only one standing out in the group pictures. That did get me a mood spoiler label attached. Even today when I go watch a hockey game or something I don't clap unless I'm actually excited, never got why people felt the need to clap mindlessly like that. Anyhow, maybe that's NT stuff.



> Seems just like lack of common sense again. And your writing is really scattered, I don't know if you realized that.


Oh ffs give me a break. I had a few drinks up my nose yesterday, which just made things worse. This part is especially bad in hindsight.

I don't think scatteredness is a Ne exclusive trait, although all Ne types tend to be scattered. EIEs are described as scattered. I've seen IEI Fe be scattered. 

Here's someone I'd type at ENTJ (and relate to a lot, maybe the Six ish connection) and that is absolutely not an ILI. He is plenty scattered in his writing imo: https://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/33151-type-zarathustra.html

What do you think ?



> I think perhaps they're more arrogant rather than narcissistic, there's a subtle difference.


I call bullshit, they self indulge and get off plenty about being mastermind edgelords 854 in touch with their emotions. Lots of NTs tend to be arrogant, me included.


----------



## Darkbloom

About Ti, wonder if the way I am with Ti goes against Ti HA :/

From today, dad trying to teach me Excel:
1)First I started studying math so I could say I'm studying math and I thought he'd be so happy and wouldn't feel the need to make me study Excel with him but it didn't work 
2)He was trying to figure out where '=' was, I have a weird keyboard, and he was like just sitting there looking at it and trying to figure it out, I got so frustrated, took the laptop from him and just started pressing every possible key, that's always my approach.
(didn't work this time)
When someone's just looking at something I see it as doing nothing, with math I always had a problem that I'd just start writing before I knew what I was even trying to do, couldn't not write, I panic when I'm not writing, writing gives me hope that what I'm writing could be correct. 
3)I don't know what exactly was it that I said but his reaction was "You always want everything to happen immediately :frustrating: " (in terms of like getting results, understanding something and such)

That's 3 1D-ish things per hour and those are just the most obvious ones that I remember.
Or is it just devaluing and not being good at it?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> no idea what y'all are arguing about
> 
> few things about Ni before I sleep, if anyone can see Ni ego or...idk
> 
> Predicting future trends: seems boring and it's weird to me to focus on the future because I might be dead in the future, I can't understand being so focused on life-plans when you could get hit by a bus the next day, so many things could go wrong
> 
> Don't mean this in 6ish way or anything but the idea of focusing so much on an immaterial happiness based in another dimension, basically, which you might not ever reach, basing anything on the idea of comparison like that, doesn't really make sense to me, would I even feel the difference? I think it's one reason I had trouble sticking to a major or anything at college, the idea of making myself miserable for four, six, eight years so I'll have more money in five, seven, ten years, is really unbelievable to me, life is INCREDIBLY short and in a way it seems like a waste to pursue a goal, not that I don't have goals kinda but it has to be about the moment
> 
> Predicting future trends, no idea if I do that, tend to be bad at it (I was telling everyone how stupid they were for thinking Trump would actually be elected president haha), of course I don't really follow politics, I don't do it much when watching shows or whatever but I specifically try not to, hate it when people try to ruin the ends of things with logic
> 
> I'm not a long-term person at all basically, I like thinking about time in a way, more in a 'time sublimated out of time' way though, like imagining separated points of time touching through a veil, but I'm definitely more intrigued by the past, the future scares me (I DIE there)
> 
> I mean the future doesn't scare me generally speaking but I hate seeing a long-term plan because then I'm like 'oh in ten years oh wait that's...an eighth of my life, if I'm lucky?' and anything seems pointless if it's some LARGE percentage of my entire mortal existence :/
> 
> for such a reason Ni can seem petty to me
> 
> I'm obsessed with time in the sense that I'm aware it's always running out and always trying to find ways to make the most of it.


It sounds Ni Ignoring, I think? Also think your story about your bleeding foot and not realizing sounded very 1D Si. :laughing: 

Yeah, @*Vixey* it seems like Si is valued for you, but you still seem Fe to me, so it's hard for me to SEE  that and Gamma. I know there's some gender bias, but all that talk about perfumes, smells, memories from smells is completely foreign to me. I never think about things in that way. It bores me to honestly. Sure, I'll smell something and be like, "Oh, this reminds me of that thing I smelled before," but it doesn't happen often, and it's hard for me to locate the "source", nor is it something I'll ever consciously focus on, or even want to. Sampling colognes is not one of my pastimes haha, in other words. I don't even notice smells all that much, unless it's really powerful. I feel like I'm a very unsensory person. The most smelling of things I do (and can remember that I do) is this...










Only new books, though. I don't go to the library and smell dirty, used books, and I don't go to the bookstore just to smell books, which would be weird, just if I'm there looking for books, I'll notice that each book has a distinct smell to it. I will not buy a smelly (in a negative sense) book!

Also, I think these are some of the more interesting and in-depth profiles I've come across, and this speaks to you for sure. These are all excerpts from the Si section only:



> The ISFp is able to remember and recreate once experienced sensations, often to high level of detail. Sounds, colors, smells the ISFp remembers as one complete wholesome impression that can then evoke in ISFp's memory associations tied to some feeling, reminiscent of some event, some person, or some relationship.
> 
> The ISFp can notice unpleasant sensations experienced by other people. For example, a person of this type may immediately take note if someone is too hot, too cold, not getting enough fresh air, of wearing shoes that are too tight. The ISFp notices when someone is experiencing painful sensations and usually can see what is causing them. The ISFp then tries to remove the cause of the problem. He or she does so in a delicate and tactful manner, since the ISFp considers sensations to be especially personal and intimate – therefore, the influence must be delicate and unobtrusive. (Representatives of this type work well in medical occupations.)





> The SEI astutely feels the harmony of color, lines, forms, sounds, and odors. Representatives of this type make for excellent perfumers and tasters. The ISFp knows how to select complimentary combinations of smell and color, color and sound. They can, for example, invent a perfume that would correspond to a specific music, mood, color combination, a specific artistic direction, or style of clothing.


 SEI by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion

@*ElectricSlime*, I was reading over this EIE profile (from same author above), because of considering EIE for myself, and while there are parts that fit, overall I don't think I lead with Fe (and for many of the reasons you pointed out). Still want to go back and respond to all those posts from before, but thought these sections were relevant to you when I was coming across them. Taken from Fe section:



> He is annoyed by the type of person who simply lives and exists, who wants to simply keep his peace of soul and mind. The EIE hates "philistinism" and commonality. He can for some time "play" a game of family comfort and idyllic atmosphere, but to "get caught up in mundane life" this he won't allow for himself. Moreover, he will consider this to be a kind of personal degradation.





> Hamlet – is always a rebel and a restless soul. This is not only Maxim Gorky's character of Danko, who lit up the way for the people with his glowing heart, but also the "petrel bird" who heralds a storm on the sea, and the "lone sail" who is searching for this storm. (Many members of this type, without being aware of this themselves, behave and hold themselves in a very provoking and cocky manner, which is especially evident in their childhood and adolescent years.)


Contrast ILE with EIE:



> At any age, in any environment, in any situation the EIE puts a claim to leadership. The EIE can find a suitable audience always when he needs it. Give him just a pretext, and already he feels as if at the podium. He is no longer simply talking but "delivering a speech". Moreover, he can hold a public rally without any reason - for this he only needs to be in the right mood (if the "soul burns" or "anger takes a hold"): then the audience will be found, and the topic will be selected. (Unlike Don Quixote (ILE), who can rally anytime, whenever and wherever he pleases, and not always in the language of the people around him, the EIE very carefully chooses his listeners. He always know whom and how he can agitate.) Reproving, condemning, "putting labels", pointing fingers - all of these are not only EIE's self-expression, but also methods of creating a community spirit and shaping the public opinion. And on larger scales - a way of "doing politics" and "making history".


EIE by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion

Still hard for me to see you as 1D Ti, like this for example:



> The EIE often acts in a way that doesn't abide by reason and common sense, since his emotions often predominate over reason. For this very reason, he finds it difficult to be calm and objective, especially for long periods of time. Thus his own understanding of what is objective often consists of that which is convenient and beneficial to himself, and supportive of his goals, statements, and views.
> 
> Sufficiently often the EIE exhibits a bias in selection for the "objective information" he's going to use; sometimes he chooses it in a very deliberate, streamlined way - everything depends on which goals he is trying to reach with it. Furthermore, the "objectivity" of the EIE often depends on what state and mood he's in. For example if he is asked to write a recommendation letter when he is upset by something, he may write an "objective, truthful characteristic" with openly critical comments. On an occasion the EIE may provide an analysis when on part completely contradicts the other.





> Nevertheless, the EIE greatly values the ability to speak out clearly, laconically, and relevantly in other people. Occasionally he tries to memorize someone else's statements or arguments and use them at a convenient time in his own speech, which sometimes consist exactly of a chain of laconic yet expressive and memorable aphorisms.
> 
> The EIE can give a clear definition to any concept only in the case when he has thoroughly studied it himself, but if he is asked to provide an explanation in his own words, then most likely it will be something that is far from the truth, or even opposite in meaning.


Also think your interactions with owlet, assuming she is EII and you're ILE, show Supervision relationship, with owlet obviously being the Supervisor of your Fi PoLR. h: Reading through your old thread that you posted earlier made me think of Will Hunting for realz too. Isn't he cp-6w5 ENTP too? :shocked:



> The supervisor is usually interested in what the supervisee does and says, but at the same time feels like it is often in need of modification or reformulation from the point of view of his leading function. Because this reframing of issues corresponds to their vulnerable function, the supervisee may often feel frustrated with the supervisor's statements. If the supervisee begins to argue with the supervisor, the differences of viewpoint may quickly become more personal when the supervisor points out perceived 'flaws' in the supervisee's thinking style or way of doing things.





Asd456 said:


> Yeah I agree, I don't see 3D Ne. I do see Fi but not sure if it's base or demonstrative. I see Ti over Te because you tend to explain yourself and ask for clarifications and definitions more than you focus and elaborate on tangible details. *For example, @Nissa Nissa I can see her Te because she still presents objective, tangible facts, almost as if there's weight to it.*





Nissa Nissa said:


> Can you elaborate on this? (both about me and owlet and just the functions because I'm slow with things like this need people to connect all the dots for me)
> also :laughing: at bolded


I'm confused by this statement too...:laughing: Not that I think this questions you being IEE, but still don't see this much from you, if ever. You're mostly running on Ne.


----------



## Mr Castelo

ElectricSlime said:


> Is it ? I guess our social retardedness would be inverted. But just for the record, I can actually relate to some PoLR Fe descriptions. Not in the emotionally bland sense, but rather in how they tend to stand out when they don't go along with the emotions of the crowd or appear stand off ish and remote. As a kid I would refuse to dress for halloween on some occasions and be the only one standing out in the group pictures. That did get me a mood spoiler label attached. Even today when I go watch a hockey game or something I don't clap unless I'm actually excited, never got why people felt the need to clap mindlessly like that. Anyhow, maybe that's NT stuff.


It probably is. Fe PoLR to me involves more just not being aware of the emotional atmosphere.



> Oh ffs give me a break. I had a few drinks up my nose yesterday, which just made things worse. This part is especially bad in hindsight.
> 
> I don't think scatteredness is a Ne exclusive trait, although all Ne types tend to be scattered. EIEs are described as scattered. I've seen IEI Fe be scattered.
> 
> Here's someone I'd type at ENTJ (and relate to a lot, maybe the Six ish connection) and that is absolutely not an ILI. He is plenty scattered in his writing imo: https://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/33151-type-zarathustra.html
> 
> What do you think ?


I don't think scatteredness is Ne exclusive either, but it's certainly more prominent in Ne lead. It's also more of an Extraversion trait in general, although I don't think Se people are very scattered in their writing.

That introduction made me cringe a bit. Also, when people say that they're an ambiverted or "borderline" INTJ, it always makes me think they're ENTJ or some other type instead -- so I believe ENTJ is probably correct.



> I call bullshit, they self indulge and get off plenty about being mastermind edgelords 854 in touch with their emotions. Lots of NTs tend to be arrogant, me included.


The INTJs I see talking about being masterminds edgelords are usually mistyped imo (not because of that alone, but usually other things just don't add up). Yes, I do think INTJs can be arrogant, no doubt about that, we can be insufferable edgelords, but that kind of overt narcissism I see more in ENTPs and some ENTJs (HA Fe and HA Se might explain that).


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Vixey*
Hm yes. SEI does seem more fitting than ESE in a way if you're an Alpha SF, but always thought you seemed Ti-seeking so maybe not. Unless I've got the wrong idea of something. =P


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I, of course, disagree with ILIs being seen as “cold and robotic” because I’m more than well aware of their simmering and passionate Fi core. They don’t really have to say much for me to tell how they are feeling.

But something else that has been on my mind related to this is how I have, for most of my life, found ILEs to “lack emotions.” To me, they just come across as...um, lacking feeling. Cold in that sense. Though recently, I have been able to sense their Fe more. I would say in general I feel uncomfortable around those who don’t value Fi in some way, because they can be cold, or at worst, cruel. Well, I should add that I think everyone has personal _feelings_, but I sometimes have trouble sensing that with some people.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Rose for a Heart said:


> I, of course, disagree with ILIs being seen as “cold and robotic” because I’m more than well aware of their simmering and passionate Fi core. They don’t really have to say much for me to tell how they are feeling.
> 
> But something else that has been on my mind related to this is how I have, for most of my life, found ILEs to “lack emotions.” To me, they just come across as...um, lacking feeling. Cold in that sense. Though recently, I have been able to sense their Fe more. I would say in general I feel uncomfortable around* those who don’t value Fi in some way, because they can be cold, or at worst, cruel.* Well, I should add that I think everyone has personal _feelings_, but I sometimes have trouble sensing that with some people.


Are you for real ? The most vindictive and cruel people I've met have been Gammas, followed by Betas. But Gamma takes the cake. 

Betas (and because I can be cruel in the same way I'll include myself in that) or just Merry types in general will mostly one up you in public and make you lose face so that you become a laughing joke. Making you lose your authority and "coolness". That is stingy in the moment but it tends to be short lived and limited to that. Gammas, who have more drive to put into motion a revenge scheme than Deltas and Alphas, will actively be more practical and personal. A vindictive Gamma might sabotage your relationships and make you lose your job for example. They tend to overblow issues and they're silent about it, so you don't even see it coming. At least Betas are direct.

And besides, ESI for Fi types have been one of the most judgmental people I know, and they make more stinging and cold comments in a week than me in an entire month. I can make biting comments for dumb reasons like getting a laugh out of people but that's mostly insensitive and I tend to regret it after, ESIs know perfectly what they're doing and THAT is being cruel.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Can't really argue against Gamma being the most vindictive, I know that I can hold grudges for the longest time if someone manages to hurt me, and I don't even feel bad about it because if they did, it's certainly because they put effort into it. I don't give a shit for most of the time, but if I do, I can't just let it go. But I agree with @Rose for a Heart that PoLR Fi feels cold to me.


----------



## Asd456

Nissa Nissa said:


> Can you elaborate on this? (both about me and owlet and just the functions because I'm slow with things like this need people to connect all the dots for me)
> also :laughing: at bolded


This is getting into dimensionality, sometimes base and demonstrative can be hard to differentiate because they're both 4D. Te cares about the objective and the tangible while Ti cares about the logical consistency and the parameters. My impression is that owlet cares about the latter and you the former. You tend to write long, detailed posts and although Ne is more noticeable, I still see more Te than Ti because I agree that you're IEE with HA Te and Ti polr.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I'm confused by this statement too...:laughing: Not that I think this questions you being IEE, but still don't see this much from you, if ever. You're mostly running on Ne.


She's mostly running on Ne but it doesn't mean that she is _only_ running on Ne. Kind of like I'm Te base and I'm mostly running on Te but it doesn't mean that I'm not running on Ni creative or HA Se. Obviously her Ne is dominant but I see more Te than Ti because she's IEE with HA Te and Ti polr.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

A question...

what would be the difference between Ni-Te and Si-Te and them “planning for the future”? Which combination would be more likely to feel comfortable doing that? How complex would the process be and what would that look like? Si-Te would of course have super-ego Ni so low dimension. What would be the comfort zone (mentally) for each type?


----------



## Dangerose

In terms of which types scare me the most, not worrying too much about stereotyping correctly:

ENTPs for sure, they just don't seem like they care about anything
ESTPs seem more human to me, ENTPs seem like aliens, but they are still...hard to keep up with? but they usually seem prepared to make allowances for me
INTJs are alarming (but in a sexyish way so it's better)
ExTJs usually seem to have a soft spot for me and I fee like I can hold my own against them but there's still the necessity to hold my own
ISTPs just seem like they have utter derison for me but don't want to bother me too much
Similar story with ISTJs
ExFJs overwhelm me with their Fe and I feel like I have to wait until they go away to be a person
*ESFPs* are the most terrifying feelers for sure and probably worse than ESTPs
ENFPs always alarm me because they always seem like they think they're better than me (think I'm mixing this up with my fear of 7s)
Dominant Fi makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells
Not sure about IxFJs, not usually too terrifying

it's possible I'm none of the MBTI types and just a sp 6 who fears everyone and everything :shocked:

but yeah ENTP and ESFP at the top of the terror campaign


----------



## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> @*ElectricSlime*, I was reading over this EIE profile (from same author above), because of considering EIE for myself, and while there are parts that fit, overall I don't think I lead with Fe (and for many of the reasons you pointed out). Still want to go back and respond to all those posts from before, but thought these sections were relevant to you when I was coming across them. Taken from Fe section:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contrast ILE with EIE:
> 
> 
> 
> EIE by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion


Well so far everything said about EIE fits, as does ILE.



> Still hard for me to see you as 1D Ti, like this for example:


If that is 1D, then it sounds more relatable than "unable to think logically" ? In fact I do all of this fairly often, except that I make sure that I can explain most of what I'm talking about in case I stumble upon a true good opponent who sees through the smoke.

That's how I kind of determined I'm not LII actually (aside from Se PoLR and not envisioning ESE as my dual). My Ti lead friend always nagging me about 

Him : OMG Slime you're not objective for shit, you tend to exaggerate the strength of your arguments through emotional appeal and to caricaturize what you're criticizing so as to gain the upper hand.

Me: So ?

Him: SO YOU'RE BIASED IN YOUR THINKING

Me: That's right. So ?

Him: Urgh forget it. Remember when you were already spitting on the Death Note movie even before it came out, because you're a narrow minded anime elitist ?

Me: Well I was right, it sucked ass.

Him: But you're not open minded to perspectives other than the one you hold! And you develop misconceptions about things because you want them to be how you imagine them !

Me: That is #truefacts. But Xavier... WAS.I.RIGHT ?

Him: Yes, yes you were...

Me: Thank you !

Or another one:

Me: I hear N (the ESE I mentioned above) is doing stand up motivating now.

Felix: Yes he told me about it.

Me: It suits him well. He has the raw charisma for it.

Xavier: He has the charisma sure, but he'd benefit from being more level headed, technical and objective.

Me: Xavier you fucktard, we've been over this! No one is gonna listen to a boring nerd with long winded explanations with weird words. Simple and impactful words spoken with assertive energy is what makes people wet, as well as dramatic and paranoid narratives. Trying to sound smart will cripple his charisma if anything, unless he carries a natural intellectual disposition.

To be fair, some of this is me fucking around with his so called "objectivity" to annoy him lol.

That is kind of true about myself, I do tend towards flowery words to add a patch of substance over my arguments and I have a leaning towards taking sides rather than evaluating things objectively (meaning being detached) unless I'm doing it as part of my work or it's something for which I consider it quite important. And I'm hardly the uber open minded person who never closes down possibilities, I am in fact narrow minded about my own vision of things and unfairly dismissive of a lot of stuff  I dunno, there might be ILEs like that somewhere.

Likewise, not much patience with pure Ti bullshit like Kant and Descartes. Or even Plato (that guys needs 50cc of reality injected in his veins with his bullshit logic to explain souls). I'm grateful that we have grunts who summarize that stuff on wikipedia. I prefer something more literary and interpretative, like Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. (I shall never shut up about these two lol).



> Also think your interactions with owlet, assuming she is EII and you're ILE, show Supervision relationship, with owlet obviously being the Supervisor of your Fi PoLR. h:


That could work. I just have a hard time with white knighthood in general. 



> Reading through your old thread that you posted earlier made me think of Will Hunting for realz too. Isn't he cp-6w5 ENTP too? :shocked:


YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS. Only you here can understand me such.

I know I have a handful of spirit animals in fiction (who have tended towards being Sixes), but realistically speaking, Will Hunting is the closest fit. Not necessarily comfortable explaining in detail why here, but fuck me if that guy isn't the more abused and justified in attitude version of myself. I am surprised that my first thread (the questionnaire right ?) was the one that reminded you of him the most, didn't even see it, But I guess that simply means it's even more obvious than I thought.

Anyways I do feel like CP6w5 makes him an odd combination of a more serious and edgier ENTP (the alternative types I could see are SLE and LIE with a stretch) more removed from the usual 7 we get shoved down the throat all the time, kinda like me.

But seriously stranger, I’m probably ILE. It’s just that I relate better to the Fi PoLR manifestation in SLE (which results in being too wary of people rather than too trusting) as well as the SLE bursts of temper and tendency to attack people’s character when upset. But I don’t think my Se is that good, and EIE fits very well too as a fellow negativistic aristocratic Beta. *shrugs*


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> In terms of which types scare me the most, not worrying too much about stereotyping correctly:
> 
> ENTPs for sure, they just don't seem like they care about anything
> ESTPs seem more human to me, ENTPs seem like aliens, but they are still...hard to keep up with? but they usually seem prepared to make allowances for me
> INTJs are alarming (but in a sexyish way so it's better)
> ExTJs usually seem to have a soft spot for me and I fee like I can hold my own against them but there's still the necessity to hold my own
> ISTPs just seem like they have utter derison for me but don't want to bother me too much
> Similar story with ISTJs
> ExFJs overwhelm me with their Fe and I feel like I have to wait until they go away to be a person
> *ESFPs* are the most terrifying feelers for sure and probably worse than ESTPs
> ENFPs always alarm me because they always seem like they think they're better than me (think I'm mixing this up with my fear of 7s)
> Dominant Fi makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells
> Not sure about IxFJs, not usually too terrifying
> 
> it's possible I'm none of the MBTI types and just a sp 6 who fears everyone and everything :shocked:
> 
> but yeah ENTP and ESFP at the top of the terror campaign


I come across that way to you ? :sad:


----------



## Mr Castelo

nep2une said:


> Do you relate to anything I just said?


Well, I've struggled with social anxiety for quite some time in school, so I did relate to some of it. However, it wasn't the case that I was terrified of others, I was simply self-conscious about my incompetence at socializing.


----------



## nep2une

Mr Castelo said:


> Well, I've struggled with social anxiety for quite some time in school, so I did relate to some of it. However, it wasn't the case that I was terrified of others, I was simply self-conscious about my incompetence at socializing.


Yeah, makes sense that'd be a difference considering the whole "INTJ" thing.



ElectricSlime said:


> I speak from my experience of dealing with 9w1s and phobic sixes who were wishy washy. I did say “several” and not “all” nor “most”. But the point is, it’s very much a latent tendency in them that can show up, especially under stress. Theory and health levels supports it too.
> 
> If that doesn’t apply to you then... good I guess ? A lot of sixes vacillate between the extremes anyway.


I think people can tend to object to bringing that up because they get tired of the image of type 9 being this wimpy, push-over, overly compliant person and not having enough positives emphasized or some kind of quality besides just that. I think they might tend to get a bit snippy over any hint of that coming up in a similar way that stereotypes about Ne seem to bother you as well. Like an, '*Ugh*, not _this_ again.' kind of reaction. It might or might not even be true to some extent depending on what's being said, it's just it feeling overdone that gets to them.

For me it's, '_I swear if I hear *one more time*(!) that ENFJs are manipulative... I am *actually* going to start a cult and see who's laughing when Jonestown 2.0 happens!_'


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Well, the fear of type 9 is loss and separation... not quite in the mind of trying to go into that atm (and there are some things about it that still confuse me), but speaking of type 9, saw this linked as an example of a type 9 song somewhere. Thought it was interesting.


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> I'll take two heart types please :cupcake:


Would be great if my heart could be 2, head 3 and gut 4 :frustrating:

(I'll respond to other stuff later, on my way to college)


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> I speak from my experience of dealing with 9w1s and phobic sixes who were wishy washy. I did say “several” and not “all” nor “most”. But the point is, it’s very much a latent tendency in them that can show up, especially under stress. Theory and health levels supports it too.
> If that doesn’t apply to you then... good I guess ? A lot of sixes vacillate between the extremes anyway.





ElectricSlime said:


> Depends on the 9, but something I've noticed in several 9w1s and phobic 6s is that they'll evade answering and beat around the bush to avoid having to comply when they don't like a request, rather than flat out say no and risk "conflict".


Alright, yeah. I'll admit it's my fault for forgetting you said "several," and concede I should work on being more careful in posting when under the influence of a severe migraine. (Like I'm doing now...) (I've been having them 5-6 days a week for the past 4 months, so I get torn between "fuck I can barely think so I probably shouldn't post" and "fuck I'm tired of not being able to do anything, so I'm going to do something even though it won't be my best.") So yeah, that part is my fault.

My issues with it were multi-folded:
1) "Several" can be vague sometimes - though you did say it "depends on the 9," which I've taken responsibility for.
2) To me, in the moment, this was yet another example of you taking your experiences and, more importantly, _your interpretation of your experiences_ and applying it to a whole subpopulation. (For this particular instance, see @mp2's post on how it's not always about "no conflict," it just seems that way from the outside.)
3) Basically what @nep2une said, it's less "is that true" and more "sigh, there's a bit more to it than that." Like, a lot of times a trait can take different manifestations dependent on the individual, and can usually span a lot of types instead of just the one or two people most often assume. 

I genuinely think you have great ideas and insights, but they can get lost sometimes in the reasons above. 

To be fair, I have my own hang-ups about certain "types" and certain kinds of people, so I'm not saying I'm not guilty of talking that way as well. And I get _really, stupidly drained_ by the instances where I have to choose my words carefully, so I can fail at that, too. And I do struggle immensely in trying to see things from another person's POV (I guess in MBTI/Socionics terms that would be weak F). But, as someone who has been pigeonholed their entire life for some reason or another, I find value in trying to empathize and avoid pigeonholing others or even entire concepts (which I'm not perfect at either - it's an ongoing process). 

Anyway, at this point I feel like I'm just ranting and throwing the thread off topic, so I'm going to stop now.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nothing mp2 said contradicted my words, I know that often 9s don’t even know what they want, it still results in the behavior I mentioned.
I’m not gonna sugarcoat my words in a theory about vices and defense mechanisms. No type has evaded my “caustic” assessments, including my own. I don’t do favoritism. If you feel that I’m too harsh then that ain’t much of my problem, I’m not gonna add a pat on the back to every type everytime I criticize one of their main characteristics. 

Nothing I said was false nor exceedingly offensive, hence I fail to see the problem. If you wanna take a shot at 6 then be my guest, my self-esteem, though unstable, is hardly tied to a stranger’s conception of my typology type, especially if he’s factually correct.


----------



## Paradigm

Mr Castelo said:


> You're correct. I'm probably one of the most neutral/detached people I know, and everyone that knows me agrees with that. I rarely have strong emotional reactions to things, at least not externally. I don't actively try to repress my emotions, they just seem limited to me. I believe I may unconsciously numb myself to them (which is in line with 9), and that causes the psychological inertia/apathy that is described in 9s.


I struggle to deduce what the main reason is for me, whether it's me being clinically depressed for over a decade or something more akin to just being my natural state, but I can relate to this to some extent. Main difference is, to some people I come off as overly-detached, while to others (and myself) I come off as weirdly "emotional" at random times even if it might not be exactly _emotional_ (that is, it's more perceived being such). 
(And I fluctuate between my base of "true neutral" to "neutral good," depending on how much "Fi" I end up "channeling" :tongue: If I were to put it in broad CF shorthand, a lot of the time the unexpected-to-me perception comes from Ti/Fe users.)

Moving on, I see 9 as being fairly common in Thinkers, especially IxTx, and that the 9 "inertia/apathy" you mention gets mistaken as 5 "detachedness" a lot. It's really similar, and sometimes hard to describe the differences. Generally the best people to try to describe this are people who have gone through the experience of strongly considering 9 and 5 core.

Aaand I'm kinda running out of fuel atm, so I'm going to go hibernate for a bit now.


----------



## ElectricSlime

And since it gets brought up sometimes, is anyone here _not_ depressed ?

Cause I do feel like this place is used as a refuge for the broken sometimes, often actually.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> Nothing mp2 said contradicted my words, I know that often 9s don’t even know what they want, it still results in the behavior I mentioned.
> I’m not gonna sugarcoat my words in a theory about vices and defense mechanisms. No type has evaded my “caustic” assessments, including my own. I don’t do favoritism. If you feel that I’m too harsh then that ain’t much of my problem, I’m not gonna add a pat on the back to every type everytime I criticize one of their main characteristics.
> Nothing I said was false nor exceedingly offensive, hence I fail to see the problem.


You could at least mention or quote me instead of just going off.

- I didn't say mp2 contradicted you. I said they expanded on the behavior and pointed out why it's not always "indecisiveness."
- I didn't say "you should sugarcoat things," I said your perception of things aren't always 100% correct and, to not sugarcoat this, not considering that is just making it more obvious how immature you are. Maybe it's just the way you phrase things, idk.
- _I already apologized for reading it wrong_, and I never said it was "offensive." I did say, however, it wasn't the whole picture, whether of those two types or the entire system.



> If you wanna take a shot at 6 then be my guess, my self-esteem, though unstable, is hardly tied to a stranger’s conception of my typology type, especially if he’s factually correct.


Uh... I guess I could harp on how 6w5 acts as if their subjective interpretation is "objective fact" or "saying it like it is," but I feel like I did that already without even wanting to apply typology to it.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> You could at least mention or quote me instead of just going off.
> 
> - I didn't say mp2 contradicted you. I said they expanded on the behavior and pointed out why it's not always "indecisiveness."
> - I didn't say "you should sugarcoat things," I said your perception of things aren't always 100% correct and, to not sugarcoat this, not considering that is just making it more obvious how immature you are. Maybe it's just the way you phrase things, idk.
> - _I already apologized for reading it wrong_, and I never said it was "offensive." I did say, however, it wasn't the whole picture, whether of those two types or the entire system.
> 
> 
> Uh... I guess I could harp on how 6w5 acts as if their subjective interpretation is "objective fact" or "saying it like it is," but I feel like I did that already without even wanting to apply typology to it.


I’m on my phone so formatting sucks but:

-I was aiming for public effect because others reacted
-I’m grateful that the people who know 9 better expanded on what I said with more depth, I think it’s a good way to proceed
-Oh, have other 6w5s done that in the past ? :scratch:


----------



## Paradigm

Mr Castelo said:


> I can see sp 3 for you.


Oh yeah. I just remembered.
@Tad Cooper, depending on how you relate to shame/3/etc, this could be a good suggestion. I kinda took for granted that types 1-5 weren't really on the table, which was kinda silly of me 'cause 3 isn't the "typical" in that range of types.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> -Oh, have other 6w5s done that in the past ? :scratch:


I'm pretty sure it's not the exact wording of how some descriptions put it (and I'll admit I can't remember which, they all run together at this point), but basically. I see it happen a lot in both 6w5s and/or Ti users. Not limited to, of course, but more prevalent in. Assertive types are prone to doing it, too, and Te-doms. As a bonus, I think "true 5s" fall somewhere in-between.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not the exact wording of how some descriptions put it (and I'll admit I can't remember which, they all run together at this point), but basically. I see it happen a lot in both 6w5s and/or Ti users. Not limited to, of course, but more prevalent in. Assertive types are prone to doing it, too, and Te-doms. As a bonus, I think "true 5s" fall somewhere in-between.


So about 75% of the NTs. I’ve seen Fi doms and INFJs impose subjectivity on the environment.

I don’t think “knowing better” is type related. If anything it does seem rejection triad a bit but even then.


----------



## Asd456

I'm tired of this whole NT temperament (David Keirsey, good job) and these ridiculous titles. Not sure why NTs even share a category. NTJs and NTPs are nothing alike. NT is described like we're some master race or something, it's pretty funny because it's so stupid. INTJs aren't masterminds, more like inertia. ENTJs aren't executives because you need to be diplomatic and an effective team player to get anyone to get on board with you and usually we're too direct and blunt/harsh. Pragmatism doesn't make people like you. ENTPs aren't visionaries, they can't get it together to focus on one idea. INTPs, can't think of any right now.


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> always related more to the Beta thing but...I'm not Beta, right? Maybe squeeziness is something else


Well you could be 
But yes it could be many things, even says this on top of the article
"these are only preliminary results based on questioning a small group of people whose socionic types were known to the author. " 



> never saw your first one, really like it!
> but they are very...smooth?
> 
> was going to say that mine are less...smooth still I think, you're are very floral and feminine and sensuous in a way mine aren't, smooth keeps seeming like the best word but it reminds me of something like the Alpha description without the awful words (might be higher sx though? yours feel very sx and also very sp/sx, mine all look sx-lastish), but I really don't have romance collages like yours  always think there's more than there is


Thanks!
I think about like...texture and flow of them a lot, Si-ish maybe, like I think about where the eye goes and transitions between images as well as overall picture.
And think sx can contribute to squeeziness and Se-ish impression, Alpha generally sounds syn flow So-ish or something if syn flow is a thing, like ESE so/sx and SEI sp/so maybe but don't think it's that way in reality.
Also don't relate to some Beta things, like remember seeing something about partner helping with career or some Beta-ish mission, or that thing about EIE that you talked about a while ago (something about challenging people?)

That first one was kinda partly inspired by this song, not fully but like the feel, colors and such more than anything, used a yellow flower instead of a butterfly for example

* *









Touch my knees
Hey my darling, throw out flyes
out of your beautiful blond little head,
don't be a child, put on slippers,
stay at home.
Hug me gently
and act natural,
make me some coffee, make a sandwich,
serve me nicely and please me.

Hey little darling, leave dolls
that chase and bother you,
don't be a child, buy me dresses,
silver necklaces,
red raspberries
and ticket to America.
We know each other already almost ten days,
give me your car and key of the apartment.

Refrain:
Hey, the day smells like a fresh milk,
birds are singing aloud,
wind is shaking morning,
touch my knees, that's what I would like!
Hey blue sky is rushing in the apartment,
yellow butterfly fondles my neck,
wind is shaking morning,
touch my knees, that's what I would like!

Hey little darling, throw out flyes
out of your beautiful blond little head,
don't be a child, put on slippers,
stay at home.
Hug me gently
and act natural,
make me some coffee, make a sandwich,
serve me nicely and please me.

:laughing:







> found this though and btw isn't this Beta-ish? it's a sort of thing I really like
> 
> * *


I guess more Se-ish than yours usually are?

Really like this one, tried to make a gold collage but can't make it work :frustrating:
My collages are smooth in a way I guess but have a hard time with smoothness at the same time in a way, like for example I go looking for gold images and end up falling in love with something like this and then go with a different idea because too much gold doesn't go with it and :frustrating:







(Is that Si-ish?)



> and this, is this Se at all?
> 
> * *


I think so but I'm wondering about the quote 



> Maybe it's Delta-ish, like the top right, I really like that more than I'd like a couple embracing or even squeezing, plus deathy
> (It was for Neil Young's Harvest Moon, was only supposed to be romantic and atmospheric but there are all these things)


I think your collages generally seem Delta to me? 



> but idk, really don't have that many people and if people just one person


It's so hard to find actual couple pictures that I like, everything's so...idk what, not appealing at best.
Thing that felt Se to me but could easily be Sx, the kind of thing I like is like














Or like the ones in my collages

Like you can hardly be any closer to someone unless maybe if you eat them but this is not dissolve-y
(don't know if it actually feels _squeezy_ either?)



> this isn't squeezy, delta-ish maybe
> 
> * *


Always loved this one :lovekitty:



> sorry for going really off topic, just was thinking about squeeziness


Sorry for not being much help with that, tbh I didn't think of it as my collages being squeezy, just squeeziness/maybe just Se somewhat showing in my collages but it's different, not too confident in determining level of squeeziness of collages 



> had to go to whisky distillery tour today, well I chose to in order to socialize, hate that kind of thing, find it so boring to find out how things are made :frustrating: don't understand why anyone would pay to visit a factory
> 
> feels un sp-ish?? but I feel like lots of sp-firsts would hate it too, don't know why anyone wouldn't


I'd definitely hate it :laughing:
Once I went to a chocolate factory, not even chocolate can make visiting a factory fun. (well to be fair chocolate is not my favorite thing, depends on my mood, but I don't think I'd enjoy a visit to any kind of factory)



Tad Cooper said:


> Thats cool, reminds me of this:


So grateful actual sun doesn't have a face!



> Why so tired? (I ended up having a nap today by accident because I was exhausted for a week without much sleep)


College is making me constantly feel tired


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> You actually read the whole damn thing ?


Thank you for that :bee:



> Not gonna lie that it's rather daunting, and seems quite experimental at times. I still have to read Dubliners first. Portrait I have read and enjoyed tho.


It becomes much more readable after the beginning part, and the style changes for different parts, so it's not as daunting as it initially seems...I ended up reading it in about a day after getting into the zone, which I think was very effective, it's like a long poem in a way, and then chewing over it for a while with annotations and such, I've heard and I thought it's a good book to reread several times over the course of a lifetime so that's my plan 

Finnegan's Wake is a different story, and according to Joyce you should spend 17 years reading it, a lot to ask when I don't even know if it's good  keep starting and giving up



> From a quick glance, Mulligan seems very Oscar Wilde esque to me, which makes sense considering the boner James Joyce holds for the guy. I'd say either ILE, SLE or EIE. E7 probably. (Wilde was EIE fo sho btw)


Makes sense (and that seems right)



nep2une said:


> I'm not sure. I never assumed the ENFP part was wrong. The sp/so is interesting. A little bit of a leap from sx/so. How'd that come about?





Electric Slime said:


> +I couldn't answer but how did you go from SX/SO to SP/SO ?












Well, it happened because I was looking at the collages (I truly hate collages and collage typing so even I hate this anecdote and they must say something) and like mine are so sx-last, it's like 90% places and like leaves and things, compare even to @Vixey's, who probably isn't sx-first, there's a lot more sex

(I also have some moral objections to actual sex images but hers aren't like that)

I do have a lot of swords and warriors and cloth and buildings and plants and such

* *

















































































I feel like there's an implication of sxish things but then maybe there isn't

But I hate collages and i hate that I'm talking about them right now and I hate that I've made so many :frustrating: feel like they show my aesthetic but not my personality, regret ever making a collage, keep thinking they'll magically show something they don't

BUT ANYWAYS they are pretty sp-ish maybe?? and always thought my social should be middle, it's not a neurosis really and not a blindspot really, something...in the middle, I never thought sx-last but lots of people have seen it, it's a very common opinion that I'm not sx at all, I think I experience myself for some reason as more sx than I am, thought it could be Se HA and also I'm clearly not an ENFJ 2 sx/so, that's too much, that should be like a person who maybe doesn't exist but I do kinda feel like I value/use Fe more than Fi and even Ti more than Te and...yeah, vaguely trying to balance things

So that's why? won't lie, sx/so just feels internally right and sp/so feels weird and wrong but I'm also definitely not a magical firework person, also not a bureucrat stamp-collector person, not really a kind of person but it's easier to be a stamp-collector than a firework for sure



> I'm guessing your views on sp changed? Does it have anything to do with that stuff I remember you saying once... something about being oddly private about certain things?


Not really, I'm just never sure what to apply to myself 
Bad Si probably accounts for my 'bad sp' (or vice-versa), then I am sp-ish...like yeah, being oddly private, I also...eat a lot  and my sleep schedule is a prominent character in my life (playing the trickster), I like a lot of...simple pleasures, when I was a kid I loved this book, it was about a mouse who had to clean her house and get it ready for the rain:










And often as a child I pretended to be a mouse or a bird in a nest or a rabbit, would make a tent of blankets and hide in there and eat carrots and read and feel cozy and happy that the foxes and lions couldn't find me in my little den 

like I'm quite home-y in reality, have a lot of ideas from my childhood even though I feel like I'm more sp-ish now

and I think I can be sp-ish in the other way too, like I always wanted to be the strongest person around, I'd always challenge people to push-up or arm-wrestling contests as a kid, or there was a race thing, who could do the most laps around the track to raise money for something, one of those fundraiser/running things, I was in second grade and I was still running when it was only teenagers left, they were really worried about me and forcibly removed me

(I'm anything but athletic now and I hated sports as a kid, I just wanted to be endlessly strong, didn't want people to think I was weak at all, I'm extremely disappointed in myself that I'm...not like that anymore, but I'm still really offended when people think I can't do something physically, not just because I think they're thinking I'm fat, well I remember _hating_ this lady at my brother's pre-school when I was 11 or 12, I was supposed to be moving things in a wheelbarrow and she came and was like 'you have to take less, you're too small to carry that much', still think about that sometimes :laughing: and I can still be somewhat like that, hate it when people offer to move my suitcase for me for example, but I'm also so weak now and I'm not motivated to fix it

I don't remember it but my mother often tells this story, in kindergarten I wanted to do the monkey bars but the overseeing-playground-activities-lady told me I was too young, I was so furious and made my mother take me to the playground every day after school so I could get really good at it and prove her wrong :tongue:

(feel like that could be 6ish but that messes with my 7 fix thing so I'm going to pin it on sp and my very shaky 8 fix lol...but it is kinda sp-ish, isn't it? or HA Se even? something in that range)

I'm a bit of a hypochondriac too, and I don't go to the doctor but it's because I'm scared 

But I'm always like...I don't know, I've started noticing and caring about the cold more, when I'm doing something miserable I give up sooner, I used to never give into those things, feel like I'm so much about comfort now in a way I didn't used to be...people still think 'aren't you cold?' and those things but I won't compromise on the things that make me actually uncomfortable, there are some things I just can't deal with and I'm much softer than most people

And other things, would say more but I've already gone on and on



> And you know EIE and ENFJ aren't the same right ? I have no issue picturing you as simultaneously ENFP and EIE, in fact I like it better.


I don't know how I feel about this totally-different-systems thing though 
If I'm going to be something different in MBTI I might as well be ESFJ or something because I love MBTI Si :fall: and MBTI Ni feels like something that barely exists 
and many people do not see me as a Ne-dom, idk
I think one of the two, at least


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa opposite, I wanted to be weak 
Like remember purposely-ish losing at arm wrestling :laughing:
(but could get competitive with some sports and such and like...have some maybe cp 6-y things but overall the opposite)


----------



## Wisteria

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Nissa Nissa with Te, I sense this energy and momentum of gears turning, of putting energy into something in order to be productive towards a goal. But with mfs, I see he uses facts, there's no dynamic energy behind it. It's just...for the purpose of using those facts to make his point in that moment. I also mentioned the "inertia" I sense in Te PoLR, so to give you an example of that...
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you can sense it, but I clearly sense that lack of Te energy in this particular YouTuber who I believe is IEI.


Wow he seems very Ni. No idea what he is talking about though, especially about the fire which he seems to be using as a metaphor but doesn't make his train of thought very clear.

Seems like IEI/INFJ might be correct, although as a Fe creative he seems very deadpan (and he really reminds me of Jim Carrey's character in Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind lol, who is an ILI possibly). 

I don't think Te is simply about facts and using them. I see it more as about functionality and productivity. Te types place value in obtaining results that can be applied in a practical way i think. Te uses facts but for those purposes in particular, and that's why it's associated with things such as quality and effectiveness. 

As Ti HA I'm more interested in the properties, the definitions and wanting to understand why. I feel i'm much more driven and energised from this. I want to develop an inner mental framework of the concept or topic if that makes sense, to understand how it all works and comes together as a whole. Gathering external sources of information is something I can and will do to achieve this understanding of a subject. 

I think i'm Te PoLR because I have no idea how to evaluate the quality of an object or item if it's new to me, and what it can do - this is where 1D becomes quite obvious. Recently I was browsing in a store looking for a new phone, but apart from prices I cannot tell the difference between them all, in terms of what they can do, how effective the phone is at doing certain things such as wifi speed, mobile signal, and generally what it can do that comes in useful. 

Actually that might have been your point - he does not discuss any Te related matters in the video, but rather interactions with other people.


----------



## Darkbloom

I don't know, I was such an extremely sp-y child, like remember having my big toy box and I'd hide from my dog in there (not because I was afraid but just annoyed and think I was jealous :blushed: ), remember being so mad at my mom one time when she put the dog in my box for a minute but I don't think I wanted to show it.
Extremely So last?
That kind of thing makes me feel not 2-ish, didn't have as much cute sp you're describing @Nissa Nissa


----------



## Wisteria

What does it mean to fear "loss and separation"? loss and separation of what exactly? 



Asd456 said:


> I'm tired of this whole NT temperament (David Keirsey, good job) and these ridiculous titles. Not sure why NTs even share a category. NTJs and NTPs are nothing alike. NT is described like we're some master race or something, it's pretty funny because it's so stupid. INTJs aren't masterminds, more like inertia. ENTJs aren't executives because you need to be diplomatic and an effective team player to get anyone to get on board with you and usually we're too direct and blunt/harsh. Pragmatism doesn't make people like you. ENTPs aren't visionaries, they can't get it together to focus on one idea. INTPs, can't think of any right now.


just ignore the stereotypes or make memes about it


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> @Nissa Nissa opposite, I wanted to be weak
> Like remember purposely-ish losing at arm wrestling :laughing:
> (but could get competitive with some sports and such and like...have some maybe cp 6-y things but overall the opposite)


I don't think I was competitive at sports to be fair, always used to just pretend to do things in P.E. unless it was like...I did gymnastics and I would spend a lot of time trying to climb the rope but I don't think I cared much about anything in the actual gymnastics class, tried to do well but eh



Vixey said:


> I don't know, I was such an extremely sp-y child, like remember having my big toy box and* I'd hide from my dog in there* (not *because I was* afraid but* just annoyed* and think I was jealous :blushed: ), remember being so mad at my mom one time when she put the dog in my box for a minute but I don't think I wanted to show it.
> Extremely So last?
> That kind of thing makes me feel not 2-ish, didn't have as much cute sp you're describing @Nissa Nissa


:laughing: that's adorable

Well it doesn't seem particularly un 2-ish?

I hated when I had friends over and they played near my favourite trees, because I hated my friends and loved my trees and felt that they were ruining them
(I realize that's different, just yeah)

going to respond to other things but need to buy things and charge my laptop too
What's your avatar Vixey? I really like it, it also reminds me of some dream I had or I guess movie I saw, has very reminiscent feel at the very least


----------



## Asd456

Wisteria said:


> What does it mean to fear "loss and separation"? loss and separation of what exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> just ignore the stereotypes or make memes about it


Memes aren't my thing. You're asking a lot of general questions. Do some research and look into Maitri, Almaas or Ichazo because they explain it better.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Wisteria said:


> I think i'm Te PoLR because I have no idea how to evaluate the quality of an object or item if it's new to me, and what it can do - this is where 1D becomes quite obvious. Recently I was browsing in a store looking for a new phone, but apart from prices I cannot tell the difference between them all, in terms of what they can do, how effective the phone is at doing certain things such as wifi speed, mobile signal, and generally what it can do that comes in useful.


Yeah that's relatable (just in case I ever start doubting 1D Te for myself =P)

Anyway, fear of loss and separation... I think it's about wanting to stay connected to things, and is related to the holy idea of 9, Holy Love. Also remember 9 being called "the fetus", by which I think they meant that it doesn't want to lose that sense of connectedness that an infant in the womb has to it's mother, like the symbiosis. So that's why 9 often want to maintain harmony, to not sever the umbilical cord and be out of sync. But I think it can get exaggerated that they're always seeking harmony in obvious ways. 

Still not 100% about my understanding of the type, like I said, or feel like my attempts at explaining it always turn out so messy, but yeah... Here is a post by someone who identifies as 9 which I think gets to the core of the type quite well, though. Also like this description, which doesn't talk directly about loss but talks about the experience of the type.

(Wonder if @*nep2une* or someone else have any thoughts on it)

@*Nissa Nissa* 
Lol, I like the way you talk about the Jungle Book thing, though it's pretty different from what I usually think about (at least at first glance)


----------



## Dangerose

Remnants said:


> Yeah that's relatable (just in case I ever start doubting 1D Te for myself =P)
> 
> Anyway, fear of loss and separation... I think it's about wanting to stay connected to things, and is related to the holy idea of 9, Holy Love. Also remember 9 being called "the fetus", by which I think they meant that it doesn't want to lose that sense of connectedness that an infant in the womb has to it's mother, like the symbiosis. So that's why 9 often want to maintain harmony, to not sever the umbilical cord and be out of sync. But I think it can get exaggerated that they're always seeking harmony in obvious ways.
> 
> Still not 100% about my understanding of the type, like I said, or feel like my attempts at explaining it always turn out so messy, but yeah... Here is a post by someone who identifies as 9 which I think gets to the core of the type quite well, though. Also like this description, which doesn't talk directly about loss but talks about the experience of the type.
> 
> (Wonder if @*nep2une* or someone else have any thoughts on it)
> 
> @*Nissa Nissa*
> Lol, I like the way you talk about the Jungle Book thing, though it's pretty different from what I usually think about (at least at first glance)


That post seems very good but it's going to take me like five times to read through it nicely

I love this sentence though:



> It is only when the reaper comes and squeezes their hearts that 5s reveal they'd rather die than let go and 9s reveals they, quite simply, can't be bothered to hold on.


Thank you, which way do you think about it?
(I have so many Jungle Book thoughts, it's insane, wasn't the biggest fan of the movie as a kid, just the girl)


----------



## owlet

Wisteria said:


> What does it mean to fear "loss and separation"? loss and separation of what exactly?


I think it means that you fear the loss or separation from loved ones - however, that's not exactly helpful (in my opinion) for typing as many people who've experienced loss will fear it. With type 9, it's more important to look at the fear of a loss of internal equilibrium (referred to as 'peace') which can be achieved by basically ignoring the fact something's happening which could disturb it. There was an extreme, but good, example on Ocean Moonshine, about someone who had to fire a bunch of people being so internally numbed out from it, it wasn't an issue and didn't disrupt internal equilibrium.
Not sure if that answered the question, so let me know if not!


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> It's okay, don't worry! What's the reasoning behind not wanting to request help, especially if it may make things go faster/better?
> 
> 
> Yeah, I remember you saying that.
> 
> 
> From this alone, I'd go for 7w8 or 8w7 (more 7w8).


I find requesting help has a lot of downsides, so you have to trust people to do the thing properly/how it needs to be done/on time etc - I like control over a lot of things like work, hobbies, cleaning etc because I know how I'll do it and know I know how to do it and that it will get done etc. 

Oh thanks, how come those?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Paradigm said:


> I'm currently leaning (but not decided on or anything) SP-first, and CP 6w7, 7 of either wing, or 9w8.
> 
> What types do you relate to and why? And if you don't relate to any suggested types (whether the ones I suggested or any suggested to you before), why do you not relate to those?


Thanks!! Why do you think those types? 

I relate to all the types in different ways, but relate least to 2 and 9 probably as far as core motivations go. With 2 I dont feel that I'll be unloved etc if I dont serve people and I dont like feeling needed (I actually hate feeling needed because then I feel I have to be around or the person cant cope and thats a nasty feeling). With 9 I dont relate to wanting equilibrium etc, Im happy for passionate debates, conflict etc so long as it's reasonable and achieves something in the end.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Nissa Nissa said:


> I'm also not really sure what is meant by doing more, is that goal-seeking, broad experience, why @*Tad Cooper* wants to do more, what kind of things this is, what kind of inhibitions we're talking about, etc


Thanks! I want to do more because I want to change things, I want things to be better for my family, friend, for nature etc. I know I can't change things by myself because thats not how the world works, so I learned how to network etc and work with others to achieve things. What do you mean with inhibitions?



Paradigm said:


> Oh yeah. I just remembered.
> 
> @*Tad Cooper* , depending on how you relate to shame/3/etc, this could be a good suggestion. I kinda took for granted that types 1-5 weren't really on the table, which was kinda silly of me 'cause 3 isn't the "typical" in that range of types.


Interesting thanks!
I do find I have shame with stuff a lot, but what sort of things would be most obvious for a core 3? (I read the type but am a bit unsure about it - different sites say different things)


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> I don't think I was competitive at sports to be fair, always used to just pretend to do things in P.E. unless it was like...I did gymnastics and I would spend a lot of time trying to climb the rope but I don't think I cared much about anything in the actual gymnastics class, tried to do well but eh


Was so horrible at it, like I was good at a few sporty thing but I was so like...teachers had to talk me into at least trying to do things, was so scared of everything, there were some things I really liked doing though but then I couldn't as much as I wanted in front of everyone, wished I had some of the stuff at home.




> :laughing: that's adorable
> 
> Well it doesn't seem particularly un 2-ish?


Always thought it could be my sp 2 line to 4 but not sure, I was so jealous of pets and younger kids unless I was the one taking care of them (which could be 2-ish? Except don't think I went out of my way to take care of them to fight against my jealous impulses  but like remember being so frustrated with my little cousin for getting older and such, or like when I wanted to do her hair and she didn't want me to. Gosh remember being so offended when someone else tried to do her hair or like when she preferred to have it done by someone else, think for some reason no one liked the way I usually liked to do it, I kinda did it the way grandma used to do it to me when I was little (we called it palm tree hairstyle) but she had different hair)



> I hated when I had friends over and they played near my favourite trees, because I* hated my friends *and* loved my trees *and felt that they were ruining them
> (I realize that's different, just yeah)


:laughing:



> going to respond to other things but need to buy things and charge my laptop too
> What's your avatar Vixey? I really like it, it also reminds me of some dream I had or I guess movie I saw, has very reminiscent feel at the very least


Thank you) , it's Brooke Shields in Pretty Baby, felt familiar-ish to me too but don't think I've seen that movie, appears on we heart it a lot but I don't think you use we heart it.


(btw I'm trying to make a doll collage :frustrating: )


----------



## Tad Cooper

Mr Castelo said:


> I can see sp 3 for you.
> 
> "_Self-Preservation Threes display a strong workaholic tendency and are motivated to work very hard to achieve security. They have a compulsion to be self-reliant and to feel in control of their lives. They also feel responsible for making everything happen, and can even have a sense of omnipotence. Along with their need for control and their underlying anxiety, they may experience a sense of panic when they need help or lose autonomy._
> 
> _The passion for security in this subtype leads them to oversimplification in life, reducing their focus and interest to what is "practical and useful." These individuals have an imperative need to know they can handle it all and that all will be good for everyone surrounding them. They don't show weakness. They may think things like, "I have to do everything, because I do it better." Situations that feel beyond their control can leave them confused and lost internally, causing them to freeze up, and in an effort to reestablish control, they can become invasive. These are the most rigid of the Threes._"
> 
> Self-Preservation Three


Oh very interesting, thank you! That does sound quite familiar, especially "I need to do it because I can do it to my standards" sort of thing - could that also be 1 though? (Personal standards you need to meet and others cant seem to get there etc?) How would you tell them apart?



Asd456 said:


> No problem, it was when I looked into subtypes (Chestnut and Naranjo). It's not for everyone but it worked for me. The descriptions are more detailed but exaggerated. For example "CP 6" was too simplistic and the Sexual 6 subtype offered additional descriptions and defense mechanisms.
> 
> I'm not a fan of tritype because it didn't work for me. I also see a lot of people confused over it. As a Sexual 6 it's easy to say I'm 8ish but I also relate to 1 as well so the rules are kind of arbitrary to me in terms of picking one from each center.
> 
> I agree with @*Paradigm* , you seem more positive outlook triad (2, 7, 9). Have you considered Social 7? Here's a link:
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...ocial-sevens-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


Ahh the subtypes are useful! I do find some of them end up sounding almost the same though? 
Hmm so is it a good plan to not really bother with it? I thought it was something you needed to consider to fully understand the types? 
Oh thanks! That does sound very familiar too, like the sp 3 stuff suggested above! I tend to not want to create debts though (one thing that stood out as a no point, I dont like people owing me or me owing people). I tend to like to do things for people, but also because I enjoy doing those things i.e. I enjoy making people dinner because I like cooking and, because of dietary stuff, I cant eat some food thats fun to make - so it gives me an excuse to make things I wouldnt otherwise make but enjoy doing. 
Did you have any thoughts on how this is very different to the sp 3 stuff? I relate a lot to both...


----------



## Wisteria

owlet said:


> I think it means that you fear the loss or separation from loved ones - however, that's not exactly helpful (in my opinion) for typing as many people who've experienced loss will fear it. With type 9, it's more important to look at the fear of a loss of internal equilibrium (referred to as 'peace') which can be achieved by basically ignoring the fact something's happening which could disturb it. There was an extreme, but good, example on Ocean Moonshine, about someone who had to fire a bunch of people being so internally numbed out from it, it wasn't an issue and didn't disrupt internal equilibrium.
> Not sure if that answered the question, so let me know if not!


So is it the fear of loss and separation from their sense of inner peace and stability with themselves and the environment? And does this mean that 9s worst fear is being in a chaotic environment where they cannot be at peace? I could be taking this too literally, as this disruption might be current problems of any kind rather than the environment itself.

Yeah it does seem like everyone fears losing or being separation from their loved ones. Ignoring the fact that something disruptive is happening seems quite strange, but maybe it would make more sense if it had some context.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Vixey said:


> So grateful actual sun doesn't have a face!
> 
> 
> College is making me constantly feel tired


it'd be so creepy.....

Ahh college is hard! Too much work or too much party?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> I can relate to both actually. I avoid expressing it to keep the peace, because it's one of the most disruptive things to do, express anger and irritability. especially when everyone is in a generally good and productive mood.


Hmm that does sound more like 9 to me, but could be a 9 wing?



> I heard that 6s can also be afraid of getting taken advantage of due to trust issues (this was from enneagraminstitute i think) so perhaps 6 and 8 are similar in this way. the fear of 8s is being controlled by others, so to counter it or protect themselves they aim to take control instead, by being self reliant and independent.


Yeah I think so! I also think that anxiety/trust issues gets confused with type 6 when it isn't just for that type but also just how some people are! 



> I relate to anger triad a lot in general, but particularly 1, especially on the type of thing they tend to get angry about.


Ah yeah, what sorts of things? (Im curious!)



> That's my impression of 9 as well.
> Oh lol I thought you were being serious xD That's probably true, i've come across plenty of very loud and opinionated people but sometimes I just find them amusing!


Yeah and it doesnt fit me in my opinion haha!
No worries, I tend to be a bit mean with the English, despite being English myself, because so many suck! There are nice ones of course, just so many annoying/ignorant/unreasonable ones etc!! They can be amusing but also disappointing.



> yeah I read the comparison  apparently they both have different ways of dealing with conflicts and stress - 1s develop a dissatisfaction with everything, and 9s go in resistance and denial of their problems. they're described as kind of opposite types but i see myself in both of them. 1w9 would make sense.


Yes! See the 1ish thing there is how I react, is that the same with you? I think theyre not opposites but can appear so with their behaviour maybe? Also a heavy wing can affect how the type appears I think.



> glad you are overcoming your anxiety. I used to be pretty anxious actually but found it was something i grew out of more as I got older. Anxiety definitely seems to be an issue for the head triad though.


Thanks, yeah its definitely something people have when younger and eventually can grow out of but also can stick with you if you dont have a good environment for recovery think. 



> I don't think 5 anymore actually, now i've learned more about the type. I think it could be a wing though, because it's one of the withdrawn types.
> 
> interesting! I'm thinking 8w7, especially if 9 doesn't really reasonate with you. SP first also makes sense.


Ah interesting! you're sure on 1,4,6 for you?

Oh thanks! Yeah 9 doesnt work for me, but I'll look into 8, why do you think 8 by the way? Im curious about SP as lots of people say it! (Im really bad with pushing myself too hard and not sleeping enough, doing too much, letting myself stay ill or injured because getting myself fixed is less important than my tasks etc)


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I have been having quite a few revelations...

I realize how absurdly detached I have been all my life from people I should have been close to. I don't attach to my family, my friends, my therapists. The only people I have attached to are those that trigger that SX desire for connection. I now realize this might be my 5-ishness I have suppressed along with my animus. I mean, I have been so detached from my own parents, they even pointed out it was cold and cruel...while all I wanted was distance and space, there was and never has been in my life, any emotional involvement with them. Now, I am beginning to mend that bond a little, but before...even if they had died, I would have been sad, but not even close to grieving. I spill my heart out to my therapists or friends and there is still no attachment there. If they suddenly left my life it wouldn't bother me at all. 

...and yet when it comes to romantic interests, everything flips and now I care too much and am too attached. 

It's clear I have been living the contradiction of the 4's emotional and very attachment seeking style (I know they are withdrawn but not emotionally) and 5's complete detachment from any relationships. It doesn't make any sense! I don't understand this. 

*To others: Do you guys see, and to what extent, type 5 in me?*


----------



## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> I don't think I can see that happening from you, but you tell me? Though, that "weakness" would definitely be helped by being 6w5 I would think.


You could say I do it, but it tends to be premeditated... You know who was EIE 6w5 ? Hitler :laughin:



> How about this, though? Socionics - the16types.info - Beta Quadra: The Complex of Subservience by Stratiyevskaya


Those are rather unhelpful unfortunately, considering I relate to all complexes at the exception of Gamma (they really have a thing for work ethic and enterprising do they). It's a bit hard to not imagine the Alpha complex as a subaspect of the Beta one. I'd say I mostly act like a Beta around people I know with a bit of Alpha, and more like a Gamma around strangers (which makes sense I think).



> Agree, can't see you as LII. I think Gulenko types as LII, and if you want a real head-trip, or headache, try wrapping your mind around these, but I don't know if I really see it as being something worth taking seriously: Socionics - the16types.info - Forms of Cognition by Victor Gulenko


Yeah those sound rather bullshit. I relate best with the negativist ones ftr. The Holographic ones because I tend to skip details in favor of a more general impression and the other one because I do feel like my speech often leans exactly the way it's described there. Negativist is just a better fit in general I think. Not because of pessimism but just in the way I approach things.



> Hmm, that bit feels more Beta too.


I knew you'd say that lol, but I think this time it's really just a matter of me knowing about rhetorics and some famous dictators who used it profusely. I wouldn't read into it.



> I don't feel like your arguments lack substance, like it isn't all purely rhetoric, which is often how Fe-doms come across in their arguments. It all _sounds_ good, but is often just a lot of fluff, while their minions follow their every move. Unless, I'm caught under your spell!? :shocked:


But do EIE have to rely solely on rhetoric ? Didn't our pal Gulenko say that ILI and EIE were the types that gravitated most towards intellectual spheres of activity ? Surely it can't be all bullshit.



> FWIW, think Nietzsche and Kierkegaard are probably IEIs.


I've been considering it too. I mean Kierkegaard is obvious but I'm talking about Nietzsche. The reason he's INTJ in MBTI is because aside from his obvious Ni, he's clearly Fi valuing over Fe. But in Socionics, despite his overall demeanor being quite Fe PoLR like, his values ooze with Beta and his writing contains quite a lot of Fe and not a trace of Te. I might consider him EIE before IEI even for reasons, but I won't go further. 



> I prefer the existentialists too. I want to be _moved _by words, partly why I gave up studying Philosophy and chose English instead was because it was so dry and Ti. I'm pretty sure I had a LII professor teaching Plato, and it was just a course in seeing if his arguments were logical, and finding counter-arguments that disprove it, which was 1) :bored: and 2) Not exactly my strong suit. I was like, I'm going to have to write a 15 page paper on Plato at the end of this term. Abandon ship! In other words, I dropped the course. At least I can have more freedom with literary interpretation and since all the professors were NFs in English, felt like it was a better fit there too.


Agreed. But to me it's not simply a matter of that, it's also that I just don't care for metaphysics as a whole. I consider it useless. I don't need to ponder the existence of a chair and don't lose sleep over being potentially stuck in a Matrix-like world. The chair is there, and I can sit my ass on it. That's enough. I'd rather use philosophy for more practical endeavors, such as political theory, things that can have an impact somewhat. Make our current world a better one. The philosophers from the enlightenment understood that and Nietzsche understood that, hence why I gravitate towards them and share many of their ideas. I am an empiricist and do value positivism, and I do like making use of natural sciences (even though I suck at them). Kierkegaard is more Plato-like but I consider his exploration of anxiety and his thesis about faith still quite valuable, because it does impact me and the quality of my life, on a more psychological and spiritual level. Plato doesn't do shit. "derp accept being part of the universe and restrict your passions, realize you're nothing but something that aspires to fuse with the cosmos/divine. Also I decided you have a soul for some reason". SHUT THE FUCK UP PLATO.

You know I always preferred Aristotle to Plato, precisely because he shares many of the views I expressed above. Because he's an empiricist, he's always typed at Te in MBTI. Imagine my relief when I realized Socionics communities all almost unanimously type him as a Ti dom (due to his logical systems), hence breaking the myth that you can't value Fe and empiricism lol.



> :heart: Yes, it was your first typing thread that you posted. I think it was the part where you talked about being on a basketball team, and organizing your team, and it just made me think of him, in addition to all your literary/philosophical references that I'm familiar with you using here.


I organized a pseudo mutiny lol. And yeah I agree.



> I think there's a scene in GWH where they're playing basketball too, before he gets arrested for fighting, and I guess it all came together in my mind in that way, and I was left with that impression of you. I sort of feel like this scene is you too with your soulmates, except Kant, of course! There's some strong Ti, when he says, "Define that."


Good point. It's also good that Will dresses and looks like a normal person rather than being some eccentric nerd who acts like a dork socially :dry:



> Okee dokee! I'm sure I'll keep questioning, though. I do think IEI-Ni fits me the best, especially these parts...


While we're at it, I think I've finally found what I meant with the Delta thing earlier. I was reading that thread about Romantic Poets and there's that girl called throughtheroses IIRC that typed as both INFP and IEI. Somehow it vibes perfectly to me for some reason. When I compared you to her, an MBTI INFJ, it's like you're the exact reverse :scratch:



> Haha, I mean, if you're both ENTPs, he's probably Ne-subtype + different Enneagram and you're Ti-subtype, but still that's a lot of cognitive dissonance. I get it, and that's why I said you feel more Beta and your interests lean towards it too, but then your paragraph about "potential" pages back was Ne (but maybe Ne Demo in EIE?)... :idunno::thinking2:


See this is what Gulenko has to say about SLE: 



> -Distrustful, tests people in action. Feels unsure about how others relate to him. Prone to first notice the weaknesses and shortcomings. Finds it difficult to restrain negative emotions in his relationships. Can be intolerant in communication with his loved ones. In an extreme situation leaves no room for pity and sympathy.
> 
> -SLE experiences difficulty establishing personal relations in informal situations. Often he is too intolerant and uncompromising, predisposed to dictate his own way in his relations. Intolerant when someone else places demands of personal commitment from him. Constructs a system of ethical values for himself that often does not correspond to what is generally accepted. Frequently disbelieves that there exist pure, platonic relations. Sometimes declares that he is for "fairness", for equal treatment of everyone; nevertheless, has favorites and scapegoats. Treats well those who respect his friends and oppose his enemies.
> 
> -The main problem of your life - the lack of tact and diplomacy in dealing with people. Sometimes you openly demonstrate intolerance of other people's shortcomings and weaknesses.
> 
> -Another problem – your excessive focus on the shortcomings of the person. This can create an unfair attitude toward him or her. Be more sensitive and careful, take care of people, not only in words but also in deeds. Do not leave unanswered questions that were asked of you. When listening to someone, do not think of extraneous things, but instead focus on the person’s problems.


I mean _this_ is easily my main flaw, always has been according to both myself and the people who know me. I see none of that in the ILE profiles for some reason.

The problem is that my inertia level can be IEI-like and I'd be very lazy for a SLE. I also fit better with intuitive as a whole. Then there's EIE who fits well on so many levels but I'm not sure my Fe is _that_ high and my Ti _that_ low. Then there's ILE who's Alpha and Postivist... Eh.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Ever made a collage?
> I'd be curious to see


Once. It was rather shitty lol, don't feel all that comfortable in my ability to judge visual aesthetics  Maybe someday.



Remnants said:


> You mean those collages specifically or collages in general?


Well the fixation on collages as a whole but these ones particularly yes. I just can't imagine myself browsing through dozens of photos of people cuddling each other and stumbling upon a masterwork saying "YES! I FINALLY FOUND IT ! THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF HOW MUCH MY LIFE SUCKS COMPARED TO SOMEONE ELSE" and then be off to add a oneiric filter over it. Yeah...

@Nissa Nissa



cyamitide said:


> Have you tried carefully reading into Reinin dichotomies?
> 
> EIE is dynamic, strategist, constructivist, process.
> IEE is static, tactical, emotivist, result.
> 
> Reinin dichotomies - Wikisocion
> 
> From distance:
> 
> IEEs are scattered, in life in general, and in what they say or write. Their thoughts flip-flop around. When they write, it often reads like fragment sentences (Fi-IEE) or disjointed random paragraphs that have been thrown in together (Ne-IEE). They can't manage their own "bank" of physical resources, and often exhaust themselves and overtax their health. They'll continue being active when its waaay past the point of passing out. The disorganization means they have to put in more effort into what they are doing. On example of an IEE friend: we went grocery shopping, she already had a backpack on her, and came out with 7 bags that looked really uncomfortable the way she was carrying them, about to tear with all the produce rolling out on the road. We walked 10 steps before I asked her to stop, to combine the bags together, put some bags into her backpack, and adjust her backpack so it's sitting at mid-waist. This is the kind of helpless disorganization with which Childlike types attract help of Si types.
> There is an element of chaos about IEEs. They can work in high pace stressful environments and miraculously make it out.
> Have a hard time keeping an interest in one thing or on one person.
> IEE girls barely use any make-up. They forget, don't consider it necessary (weak sensing), and in general like a natural look.
> FI-IEEs have stiff angular movement, not very feminine and gracious, but give them a dash of resilience.
> Learn by means of someone telling them what to do, or how things work in sequences ("put this here, then adjust this here, then you got it made").
> Even though they are "Aristocrats" like EIEs, they seem simpler and easier to approach. They will say compliments and speak with admiration about people who they think are talented. Totally not shy about this.
> Have the hardest time working with physical details, and even noticing them.
> A typical IEE: Hyperbole and a Half: Spiders are Scary. It's Okay to be Afraid of Them. *UPDATED*
> 
> 
> Both IEEs and EIEs are emotional (Passionate types) but the IEE is emotivist with creative Fi and demonstrative Fe, and gets out her emotions right away. If she is in a happy mood, she will tell you about it. If she is in a bad mood, you will know. If she is having mood swings, she will say so. Emotions are let out almost all the time. For the EIE this is much more difficult because the EIE is constructivist, with accepting Fe that accumulates emotions until the day they blow up and fireworks happen. It's very difficult for the EIE to dose or control their emotions than for the IEE. If you hang around these types, this is very striking.
> 
> EIEs hold themselves more like the literal interpretation of "aristocratic" dichotomy. With some distance. And reverence.
> All of the EIEs I've met had some competitiveness and envy in them, and sometimes speak to people from the top or ridicule others with sarcasm or irony, like they are testing how much shit they will take from them. They don't brazenly shower people with compliments and flatter them like IEEs do. More likely to be critical or others, Ni-EIEs especially ("very ironic and critical, can be stinging and arrogant ... has penchant for sarcasm"). To sum: use negative motivation instead of compliments.
> Ni-EIEs can live in a messy apartment, but usually it's only them thinking that due to rationality--what they consider to be a mess is neatness embodied for many other types.
> Learn from rigorous, introverted logical analysis where every letter, every word builds up into this astonishingly intelligent argument (which only LSIs with their +Ti can do). Like to be given exactly what they need (Se hidden agenda) to do their work.
> Dislike poverty. Sensitive to it, to conditions where can't take care of themselves and make do. Usually Si polr is associated with comfort and health, but the broader interpretation also has to do with income, and whether you can provide a certain standard of living for yourself.
> Some EIE girls seem posh, high-maintenance, high-upkeep. Pose like they are the "upper class". If they have to speak before an audience, they look very collected and neat. Sit with their legs together, without stretching or slacking.
> EIE girls seem more feminine than IEE girls and certainly use more makeup. EIE guys seem more feminine than just about anyone else ... except maybe EIIs.
> Like expensive gifts and purchases, will show them off. (I saw a typing of ISIS leader as EIE, and there is a photograph of him wearing a Rolex circulating around.) Can overspend but feel a limit, and don't go into serious debt.
> Don't like chaos, disruptions, more likely to be like LSIs--stick to one organization and work their way up to higher position and better pay. If they are evil, they will try to set up their competition by means of intrigue, e.g. figure out who dislikes that person and try to form an alliance with them, or try to worsen and amplify their conflicts, mistakes, and failures, with the end goal to bring them down and take over their place.
> (This line from the concluding remarks to the Delta Quadra complex is straight up about these evil EIEs: " - when someone from envy, is scheming against his colleague or boss, trying to put him under the blow and get him in trouble -).
> Nice well-adjusted EIEs get promoted through their personal charisma, their superb organizational skills, their ability to motivate people to action and inspire them with their vision, their own energy and intelligence, and don't need to resort to setting up others like the crappy EIEs do it.
> Visually EIEs looks more organized, more mindful of how they look to others, and worried about their appearance than the IEEs. You wouldn't catch an EIE looking like my IEE friend after that trip to a grocery store.
> 
> That's all for now--I don't feel like making this wot any longer and hope my observations of the types are helpful.


Thoughts ?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Ok, this is going to be long, since I'm responding to everyone at once.

_Signatures of all things I am here to read_...

(Ulysses quote!)



Mr Castelo said:


> I don't think @*mistakenforstranger* is Te ego, citing sources is not enough to make you Te. In fact, I'd say Te doesn't have that much to do with citing sources as anyone can do it. I don't feel the need to constantly cite sources for my information to back up my arguments because I often use facts that are readily available for me and everyone else in the moment (of course, also depends on the context, but that's my usual method). Besides that, mistakenforstranger doesn't have that technical/matter-of-fact tone that I usually associate with Te.


Yeah, this is one thing that made me think (as I see others do too) that I am not Te PoLR, but I think @*mp2* does a good of explaining the way I do it, which is that I just remember the things I've read and how that relates to what is currently being discussed, so it's really about pattern recognition rather than that I "use" the source itself (which I do use, obviously), and think other people may find it helpful too. Also, it's just easier for me to just pull up a quote too, so it's a matter of convenience.

I don't think I've always done this either, and really do it only on the things I'm familiar with and have studied. I mean, does anyone see me pulling up quotes about Type 8? No, because, truth be told, I haven't read much about Type 8, because it's really irrelevant to me. I feel like this speaks to the Process/Result distinction too, because a lot of the knowledge I've gathered has all been done in service of the search for my own type/self. Truly, an endless (and therefore, unfortunate) process, especially for a Type 4. I mean, the whole reason I got into typology was because I was looking to understand myself more. I don't need to know everything about every type (though, I do want to go back and fill in the gaps), but I feel like perhaps a Te-user would want that comprehensive knowledge of everything, know the book inside-and-out. Would you say that's true, or do you just do the stream-lining process here where you only research those areas you want to know about it because it's more efficient?

Socionics Dichotomies: R3t4 



> Process
> Do things sequentially, from the beginning to the end
> Immersed to a process and tends to single-tasking.
> Focus between the beginning and the end of processes
> More inclined to read texts on books or computer from beginning to the end
> "Of course the answer is right, since we followed the correct procedure."
> 
> Result
> Do things randomly, seemingly doing them from the end to the beginning.
> Detached from processes and tends to multitasking.
> Focus on the beginning and the end of processes
> More inclined to read texts on books or computer randomly, maybe reading random paragraphs or chapters.
> "Of course we followed the correct procedure, since we got the right answer."


I would obviously be more Result, which IEIs are, but I don't want to be merely type on the basis of dichotomy. Just I noticed the pattern!  (Though, noticing patterns isn't exclusively Ni, as it's merely intuition)

Also, is citing a source from a website, like Socionics, that _factual_ even? None of it is objectively proven. This is also why Jung isn't a Te-user, because his "scientific" studies are very not-that lol.



Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Rose for a Heart* are my collages at least Fi-ish? What do you mean by not sensing the Fi, I'm just curious...do I come off cold or...idk, what does that mean to you?
> 
> I agree that @*mistakenforstranger* doesn't seem Fe PoLR...never totally sure I see Te PoLR either, but I don't know what good Te is supposed to look like  IxxJ seems right at least, hard to imagine something else imo


I think someone who is a _strong_ Te-user, who types as INTJ, is reckful on here. See how much more scientific and objective he is than I am? He cites studies, statistics, and lays out the facts. The actual, _proven_ facts, not a description on a website. He's like an academic on here.

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/283457-another-mbti-debunking.html

I'm not questioning @*Paradigm*'s type, but even I don't see that level of Te from her (or many other INTJs on here), so I mean, maybe there's degrees to how much one uses Te, but I am certain that what you see in that link is Te. 



ElectricSlime said:


> I have much to say, but I have a 1000 words Plato essay to write REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


:hororr: I feel your pain, even though I jumped ship. I'm sure you'll succeed where I would've failed. Good luck!



ElectricSlime said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> I agree that you’re not Si ego, and likely not Te either. But I will admit that you vibe differently from the IEIs I’ve seen and am certain of, and that Te PoLR seems excessive somewhat. You might vibe Delta actually, although I can’t quite picture you as a supervisor/conflictor.


Yes, please I am *not* a Si-ego, can only see ILI if I'm the Ni-subtype, as there is a lot in the description that I do relate to, but I don't think my Te is really that strong (unless, citing descriptions is Te). For instance, the way Te PoLR is described here I don't have a problem with "_lacking confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources_," or that I would be "_skeptical of an encyclopedia_" :stupid: Obviously, things change so the knowledge is updated, but I like learning facts about the world, (It's why I try to watch Jeopardy fairly often, and know a lot of random trivia, if saying that didn't just make me...:facepalm but I don't really think about efficiency or productivity (when I probably should!). I can be very stubborn about sticking to my insights, let's say, if it contradicts an expert. I mean, you weren't here for it, but a certain celebrity (who we shall not name, but people are aware of) is typed by experts over and over again as a certain type, and I feel it in my bones that he is the type I think he is no matter what anyone says. Anyway...



> That is manifested as a skepticism and dislike for basing your beliefs, arguments, and actions on external sources of information. For instance, a SEI will rather trust the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates to have read many books on the same subject. IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it. "Don't trust everything you read" is a typical sneer of this function, especially when applied to sources of information otherwise seen as neutral and reliable, such as encyclopedias and handbooks. *Another manifestation is a dislike for dealing with issues involving efficiency, productivity, and factual accuracy of statements made; statements are made according to input from other functions, not from double-checks against external facts which are seen as of lesser relevance to the issue at hand. Types with this function lack confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources.*


You mentioned IEIs being into astrology, and that is very true, and a prime example of a Te PoLR endeavor. I'm not into astrology myself, do find it interesting and would like to know more, but I know about 3 IEIs on here who do study it. Astrology is very Ni + Ti and Te PoLR, because you can't prove any of it is true. Above all, Te wants proof and for something to be objectively verifiable. Ni-doms, especially INFJs, can believe in all sorts of things not of this world. :crazy: I think perhaps the Si + Te PoLR equivalent of that might be Gywneth Paltrow's Goop shit. For a taste...








ElectricSlime said:


> I can definitely see you like Stephen Daedalus though, so INFX should be right. MBTI INFJ especially. Your posts referencing mythology are so typical of that lol.


Ah, yes, if Will Hunting is your spirit animal/charater, then Stephen Dedalus is mine. It's funny that you type me as INFx, since that's really what I always type as on MBTI tests (Sometimes INTJ or INTP), but the INFx is really clear in me, I would think. J/P is honestly 50/50. Though, I wonder if perhaps I had taken it when I was younger, if I would've been more extroverted, like I said before I literally had to be disciplined for talking too much in class. h: I would get a  on a calendar at the end of the day if I didn't talk to others, or cause any trouble, and I wasn't even really a bad kid. I think I've just generally become more and more introverted over the years. I never really would think of myself as a "shy" person, but I am rather inhibited.



ElectricSlime said:


> I was browsing through Ulysse yesterday and holy cow Buck Mulligan is awesome. Especially his tendency to mock and ridicule half of what comes in his sight, like me lol.


Haha, yes! Buck Mulligan is an ENTP, in my view. That is too funny you think that about him.



Rose for a Heart said:


> Part of Te is definitely about referencing facts though. But the way I see it, it's about keeping things moving efficiently. There's an inertia I have always sensed in Te-PoLRs, specifically IEI. For example, I have a friend who is IEI, and when I come up against a problem, I seek her to tell me something I could do in order to resolve this. Her approach is more..."don't do anything, just surrender." Which, I mean, is actually appropriate for my situation, but I have always sensed this sort of...inertia from her, as if the universe will just flow like it's supposed to in her mind, and there's nothing to be really done. If that makes sense. That inertia bothers me, though not nearly as much as it would a Te ego.


I think the inertia you're sensing is more from inferior/1D Se than 1D/Te PoLR. Here's some more Te! :wink:

From Se section of ILI/IEI:



> *ILIs are often characterized by their inertia.* If left to their own devices, ILIs may choose to do relatively little to interact with the outside world. When they do interact with the outside world, ILIs often find their activities to be empty and unfulfilling. To ILIs, life is often characterized by periods of stimulation. *For the ILI, however, true stimulation is often spontaneous, and interludes between periods of stimulation are often characterized by tedium, inertia, and apathy.* ILIs are often not very adept at finding new areas of interest, and may seek to continue to reproduce past experiences instead of moving on to new things. In order to break out of this cycle, ILIs require an outside stimulus of spontaneity and activity. With such a degree of spontaneity introduced into their lives, the tedium and perceived meaninglessness is replaced by a constant state of activity in which the ILI can experience new things and escape from the confines of his own mind.





> IEIs are often relatively inactive and indecisive. Many IEIs may be relatively immobile and hesitant to interact with the outside world. IEIs can withdraw from action in many social or working situations, and may come across as inhibited or shy. They may feel as though trapped in their own thoughts and dreams. Some IEIs, however, are generally less reclusive and more comfortable in social situations, but even they may feel as observers and unable to mobilize themselves spontaneously.
> 
> IEIs may tend to be stimulation seekers. This does not necessarily mean that they seek to surround themselves with alcohol, members of the opposite sex, and debauchery, but rather that they often seek some form of mental, social, or other stimulus. Often, however, they are not very skilled at spontaneous self-stimulation. They may seek to reproduce previous mental themes or past experiences and may have a deliberate, deadbeat attitude towards new events.* They tend to only escape this cycle of inertia when impelled by another with stronger initiative.* Some IEIs may be especially prone to enjoy such adventuresome sensations as lighthearted mischief or playful aggression.





> Se as Suggestive Function
> 
> *The individual is often characterized by his inertia.* If left to his own devices, he may choose to do relatively little to interact with the outside world. When he does interact with the outside world, he often finds his activities to be empty and unfulfilling. To this individual, life is often characterized by periods of stimulation. *For him, however, true stimulation is often spontaneous, and interludes between periods of stimulation are often characterized by tedium, inertia, and apathy.* He is often not very adept at finding new areas of interest, and may seek to continue to reproduce past experiences instead of moving on to new things. In order to break out of this cycle, he requires an outside stimulus of spontaneity and activity. With such a degree of spontaneity introduced into his life, the tedium and perceived meaninglessness is replaced by a constant state of activity in which he can experience new things and escape from the confines of his own mind.
> 
> He is additionally very indecisive. He may lack the ability to make important decisions, especially with regards to his own future. He may know what he wants to achieve out of life in a broad or long term sense, but will find it very difficult to set and finish the short term projects leading to it. In order to be able to act, he needs a tangible and definite stimulus from somebody well grounded in external reality and who has a clear picture of what must be done in a certain situation.


IEIs and ILIs share this inertia because it's related to 1D Se (which the dual being 4D Se is supposed to "fix"), but ILIs are probably more productive due to Te. Though, I do move rather slowly through life and lack energy, I wasn't always that way, and think it's more due to my mental health issues holding me down. 

I also am somewhat bothered by the idea of "Just surrender," but I don't know how it's helpful to your situation (You don't have to explain), and can be useful at times. It just feels very defeatist to me. I tend to be more (at least internally)...
I didn't know this quote was from Galaxy Quest :laughing:








Rose for a Heart said:


> As for @*mistakenforstranger*, he doesn't nearly post enough for me to know his type haha...one thing I can't really see is Te-PoLR.


I don't?  



Rose for a Heart said:


> I instinctively feel that vulnerability in a Te-PoLR when I interact with them, despite me being not Te ego. But I don't sense that in him at all. As for whether or not someone is a sensor, I would separate MBTI and socionics. It's also not about how intuitive you believe yourself to be. As you can be N and a super intuitive person but still somehow end up being S in socionics based on your behavior. But I will say - I don't sense the dynamic element of Te in him either. But not everyone fits the system perfectly.


Actually, I would be even less of a Sensor in Socionics. I hardly ever pay attention to my internal sensations, except the mostly discomforting ones. I would really ignore them completely, if I could.



> Si is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail. Si focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.


Nope, and no. I mean, I even said a few pages back that I'm a very un-sensory person. I hardly even exist in the real-world sometimes.



Rose for a Heart said:


> Another thing also, mfs...if you don't mind me say thing: *I do think you take what others say quite a bit at face value*, which is why I was wondering how strong sensation is for you. Your intuition is strong as well though, I am not going to lie.


How so? Because I really don't think I do...:ninja: I really find it odd that a few (Just you, and Animal before now, unless there are others :O) think I'm a Sensor/SLI. Feel like it is the complete opposite of me. Maybe I'm really an IEE?? :shocked:



Nissa Nissa said:


> mistaken (this is a worthless post so not mentioning you but I think you'll see it) is extremely S. Daedalian, and Stephen Dedalus is imo extremely Ni (at least in MBTI sense)


No, not a worthless post at all! I love being compared to him. roud: Yes, I think he's IEI-Ni (of course, I'm biased, but those ruminations on the beach are pure Ni, while Leopold Bloom is more Ne). Though, I'll say just because I think I'm like him, doesn't mean I am the same type, as I could just be projecting. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> I'm trying to see him as INFP, since that's sort-of what you were implying, seems really wrong but probably not the worst thing ever, 4D Ni there and nothing about the other functions that jumps out as 'oh extremely wrong' except maybe leading Fi


I could see INFP working in MBTI dichotomy, as my lack of structure in _everything_ in my life at this point makes me very P, even though I need closure ultimately. I'm not a person who makes a huge fuss if the schedule changes at the last minute either, like some Js, and am usually late to most things haha. EII-Ne (definitely not EII-Fi) isn't the worst typing, but how would you differentiate it from IEI-Ni? Since those seem to be the two types we're hovering around, and really the only types I've tested as, but on worse tests, I'll type as ILI-Ni. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> edit: and I've changed my sig type a little, does this seem ok? ENFJ + sp/so? thoughts??


Hmm, think IEE was more fitting, but I did originally think you were EIE, so I don't know, but I don't think sp/so. You didn't seem that way on camera, and you're one of the more open members on this forum. Think sp/so can be guarded, but maybe it's different in Extroverts. Definitely something with Social. I could see so/sx too?



Nissa Nissa said:


> forgot to respond to this bit, Telemachus is my favourite part of Ulysses, great character and it's my favourite version of Joyce's arcaneness and poetry (unlike the beginning of Finnegan's Wake which literally reduced me to tears because I couldn't understand anything)




@*mp2* has read Finnegans Wake. Twice! He says it's one of his favorite books too, or maybe he just said he liked it more than Ulysses (Joseph Campbell had the same opinion), but I haven't attempted it yet.



Nissa Nissa said:


> Do you think ILE for him? SLE?


Like Slime said, ILE or EIE, but still think he's ENTP in MBTI. Think Blazes Boylan is meant to be the SLE. Can you get a more Se name than that haha?

Oh, @*ElectricSlime*, I've shared this on here before, but think this is a great example of IEI-SLE duality. :laughing:

James Joyce Picked Drunken Fights, Then Hid Behind Ernest Hemingway | Open Culture



Nissa Nissa said:


> Leopold Bloom to me is a good example of a 9, think I've had this conversation before though


Yes, great example of 9, Social subtype too. I think he's 9w1 so/sp. He knows his wife is going to cheat on him, so he avoids it, by doing errands all day haha. Yes, and I'm sure it was with me! 



Rose for a Heart said:


> @*Nissa Nissa* with Te, I sense this energy and momentum of gears turning, of putting energy into something in order to be productive towards a goal. But with mfs, I see he uses facts, there's no dynamic energy behind it. It's just...for the purpose of using those facts to make his point in that moment. I also mentioned the "inertia" I sense in Te PoLR, so to give you an example of that...
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you can sense it, but I clearly sense that lack of Te energy in this particular YouTuber who I believe is IEI.


Yes, but are descriptions really _facts_? Does that make a difference?

I agree this guy is IEI, reminds me of Sufjan Stevens, who is also IEI, but man, is this guy _mellow._ I mean, I'm pretty mellow too, but can he talk any slower? He probably has a 9-fix lol, but think lack of "inertia" can be a 9 thing too. I was only able to listen to about 5 minutes of his pseudo-profundity.






BTW, it's interesting that you're focusing on his energy here...



> *IEIs naturally conceptualize the people around them in terms of the emotional energy that they give off, and the way that they interact with the mood and energy around them.* They are often especially sensitive to how others around them react to their own energy.


I also thought a post from before from you was Fe about being charged up by the "atmosphere" of Ne, not that I'm suggesting you're a different type, but the way you're conceptualizing it here and there is along the lines of Fe, or am I once again being too surface-value here? 

Here's that post:



Rose for a Heart said:


> One thing I see missing in Ne descriptions is the similarities to Se. Ne seeks mental stimulation like Se seeks physical, and I see them both seeking that thrill and novelty of experience.* I personally love Ne-energized atmosphere and people who are passionate about what they are talking about, because that charges me up as well.*





Nissa Nissa said:


> Thank you for that :bee:
> 
> It becomes much more readable after the beginning part, and the style changes for different parts, so it's not as daunting as it initially seems...*I ended up reading it in about a day after getting into the zone*, which I think was very effective, it's like a long poem in a way, and then chewing over it for a while with annotations and such, I've heard and I thought it's a good book to reread several times over the course of a lifetime so that's my plan
> 
> Finnegan's Wake is a different story, and according to Joyce you should spend 17 years reading it, a lot to ask when I don't even know if it's good  keep starting and giving up


:shocked: I'm impressed. And yes, that's why I like Joyce, because of the poetic nature of his prose. Joyce said, "The demand I make of my reader is that he should devote his whole life to reading my works." :shocked:



mp2 said:


> @*mistakenforstranger In my opinion you’re IEI . I can see why people could think you’re higher Te though, and I have thought before that you might be more of an atypical 4w5 ILI. But to me you seem more Fe/Ti and I don’t think you seem very Fe PoLR at all. *
> *
> I thought you could also be an atypical 4w5 LSI based on your use of Ti, but that seems less likely than IEI to me. The only other thing I could really see you as is EIE. Because it’s easy to see how you could be demonstrative Ne and PoLR Si. It’s easy to see you as a reserved type 4 EIE, especially with the way you describe how you were more social and extroverted as a kid. The only thing against EIE though is that it’s hard to see you as 1D Ti.
> 
> I get the idea that what can be interpreted from you as higher Te is due to a combination of Ni/Ti. In the way that your impressive ability to apply external sources to individual cases appears to be more from recognizing patterns and how things develop over time(and backing it up with Ti) in a way that strongly points to 4D Ni. And I don’t think you’re Ne/Si valuing at all so it all points to IEI, with EIE being the only other reasonable option, but still more of a longshot.
> 
> Just my opinion though and I’m probably not very good at typing others at all :blushed:*


Thanks for adding your opinion! I've also thought ILI before too (at least I can get behind that), and yes, think functionally, I may even be better suited to EIE (though, behaviorally, not so much), as Si is perhaps weaker than Te, and Ne is higher than Fi. I actually took a cognitive functions test not long ago, not based on Socionics, but still think it's telling, and the order of my functions was:

Ni > Fe > Ne > Fi > Ti > Te = Se > Si (See where my Si score is haha, but this more MBTI; Still think I have terrible Si in Socionics too) 

My top 4 functions are always on every cognitive test, Ni, Fe, Ne, and Fi, which curiously corresponds to the 3D-4D functions of NF types. I don't really doubt my NF-ness. Probably should walk around with a sign saying, "I'm an NF". Actually, I once came up to a drive-through a few years ago, and the cashier, who I also think is the manager, as I would go there a lot, and I kid you not, was wearing an ESFJ shirt! He must have been to like a conference, or something, or maybe even he made his own shirt? :crazy: 

Hmm, what makes you think I'm not Ne/Si valuing, just to pick your brain, if you have any thoughts. Thanks a lot, you really understand where I'm coming from, so your opinion was good! Basically summed up all my thoughts on the matter. I wish we could settle on your type, or maybe you have now, but I'm sure you're an intuitive, at the very least. I really don't know if there are any Sensors out there who would say they've read Finnegans Wake twice, and enjoyed it, among many other reasons why I feel you are very very very  likely an Intuitive.

Thanks all, enjoyed being talked about haha!


----------



## owlet

Tad Cooper said:


> I find requesting help has a lot of downsides, so you have to trust people to do the thing properly/how it needs to be done/on time etc - I like control over a lot of things like work, hobbies, cleaning etc because I know how I'll do it and know I know how to do it and that it will get done etc.


That's fair. I can't really draw out much type info from that, but a consistent theme in all your answers has been control, so try looking into 8 and 1? Let me know what you think for those. (I'd also say, look into 7 and 3 as well.)



> Oh thanks, how come those?


I think you saw my explanation to Nissa just a bit ago (you thanked the post) so that should have explained it!



Wisteria said:


> So is it the fear of loss and separation from their sense of inner peace and stability with themselves and the environment? And does this mean that 9s worst fear is being in a chaotic environment where they cannot be at peace? I could be taking this too literally, as this disruption might be current problems of any kind rather than the environment itself.
> 
> Yeah it does seem like everyone fears losing or being separation from their loved ones. Ignoring the fact that something disruptive is happening seems quite strange, but maybe it would make more sense if it had some context.


I found a bit in enneagram institute which seemed relevant:


> Ironically, therefore, the only type the Nine is not like is the Nine itself. Being a separate self, an individual who must assert herself against others, is terrifying to Nines. They would rather melt into someone else or quietly follow their idyllic daydreams.


So the fear of separation from others means the 9 is afraid due to the fact that, as an individual, you're going to clash with other individuals at times and have to deal with it yourself, rather than denying it (which might be more possible if there are more people involved). I'm pretty tired currently, so maybe I'm not focusing enough but yeah, that sounds right.


----------



## Paradigm

mistakenforstranger said:


> I think someone who is a strong Te-user, who types as INTJ, is reckful on here. See how much more scientific and objective he is than I am? He cites studies, statistics, and lays out the facts. The actual, proven facts, not a description on a website. He's like an academic on here.
> I'm not questioning @Paradigm's type, but even I don't see that level of Te from her (or many other INTJs on here), so I mean, maybe there's degrees to how much one uses Te, but I am certain that what you see in that link is Te.


IMO, using him as an example of "strong Te," let alone as an "INTJ with strong Te," doesn't seem the best idea around. He uses _only_ dichotomies, and most of his "true statistics" are based off pure self-reporting (which is obviously problematic). But I put him on ignore years ago because I was tired of how he operates and proselytizes, so... *shrug*

But yeah, I'll happily admit to possibly being Fi-dom instead of Te-aux; I question it myself fairly regularly. I think the Grant stack and Model A are close to what I observe in myself and in others. I don't think typing by things like "POLR" or such is the best way to go about it... Trying to find those things first seem like they would be particularly prone to misunderstanding or the Forer effect. The tl;dr story of my journey (once I got srs about it) is I figured out which axes I was on (Ni/Se + Te/Fi) and then found the "best fit" via the more murky/detailed (depending on your POV) stuff like "Wow, I fit the IP temperament _waaaay_ better." Trying to figure out one function in one place (that isn't dom or creative) seems like asking to be confused.


----------



## Mr Castelo

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, this is one thing that made me think (as I see others do too) that I am not Te PoLR, but I think @mp2 does a good of explaining the way I do it, which is that I just remember the things I've read and how that relates to what is currently being discussed, so it's really about pattern recognition rather than that I "use" the source itself (which I do use, obviously), and think other people may find it helpful too. Also, it's just easier for me to just pull up a quote too, so it's a matter of convenience.
> 
> I don't think I've always done this either, and really do it only on the things I'm familiar with and have studied. I mean, does anyone see me pulling up quotes about Type 8? No, because, truth be told, I haven't read much about Type 8, because it's really irrelevant to me. I feel like this speaks to the Process/Result distinction too, because a lot of the knowledge I've gathered has all been done in service of the search for my own type/self! Truly, an endless (and therefore, unfortunate) process, especially for a Type 4. I mean, the whole reason I got into typology was because I was looking to understand myself more. I don't need to know everything about every type (though, I do want to go back and fill in the gaps), but I feel like perhaps a Te-user would want that comprehensive knowledge of everything, know the book inside-and-out. Would you say that's true, or do you just do the stream-lining process here where you only research those areas you want to know about it because it's more efficient?


I'd say that I do both the stream-lining process and the comprehensive study thing. I usually start with stream-lining, but then the feeling of being incompetent for not knowing about shit slowly grows on me, and eventually I end up researching everything anyway.



> Do things randomly, seemingly doing them from the end to the beginning.


This might explain why I start writing my stories from the middle or the end... Interesting.



> I think someone who is a _strong_ Te-user, who types as INTJ, is reckful on here. See how much more scientific and objective he is than I am? He cites studies and lays out the facts. The actual, _proven_ facts, not a description on a website. He's like an academic on here.
> 
> I'm not questioning @Paradigm's type, but even I don't see that level of Te from her (or many other INTJs on here), so I mean, maybe there's degrees to how much one uses Te, but I am certain that what you see in that link is Te.


I agree with you that he's a strong Te-user, and I'm probably breaking some rules here, but I think reckful is Te base (at least in Socionics) and LSE.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Tad Cooper said:


> Interesting thanks!
> I do find I have shame with stuff a lot, but what sort of things would be most obvious for a core 3? (I read the type but am a bit unsure about it - different sites say different things)


Threes want to be seen as role models for others, so they focus a lot on meeting people's standards of what is likeable, desireable and good -- basically, they want to have a good image, and the way they try to gain this is through achievement and being objectively "the best". Due to this, Threes tend to be very driven, hard working people that strive for success in whatever area they're interested in. The main issue with Threes is that they identify themselves with the image they're trying to project to others, not who they are as a person. They see themselves in their actions, their achievements and their work, but not in their own feelings since they're disconnected from them.



Tad Cooper said:


> Oh very interesting, thank you! That does sound quite familiar, especially "I need to do it because I can do it to my standards" sort of thing - could that also be 1 though? (Personal standards you need to meet and others cant seem to get there etc?) How would you tell them apart?


While I do not agree with some of their descriptions, I think the Enneagram Instintute can help on this one:

https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-1-and-3/


----------



## Paradigm

Tad Cooper said:


> I do find I have shame with stuff a lot, but what sort of things would be most obvious for a core 3? (I read the type but am a bit unsure about it - different sites say different things)





Tad Cooper said:


> I relate to all the types in different ways, but relate least to 2 and 9 probably as far as core motivations go. With 2 I dont feel that I'll be unloved etc if I dont serve people and I dont like feeling needed (I actually hate feeling needed because then I feel I have to be around or the person cant cope and thats a nasty feeling). With 9 I dont relate to wanting equilibrium etc, Im happy for passionate debates, conflict etc so long as it's reasonable and achieves something in the end.


Honestly, it's really hard to get any "grip" on you because you so rarely go into detail. Like, with "how do you relate" questions, two short sentences for two types, both with "etc," is not that helpful >_<

The best type 3 description I've found is this one - https://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personlitytype3 - and even then I have issues with it. I don't believe all 3s are sociable, or charming, or successful. They'd probably _like_ to be, sure, but not every 3 gets what they want.

I sadly don't have a great 7 description, except maybe Ichazo's iirc. This came up on my Google search for it, seems like a decent summary: Oscar Ichazo's Ego-Types | Dave's Enneagram

I'm still finding it difficult to rule out 9 because there's no big reason a 9 can't enjoy "debates" (which is again very vague - what kind of debates? There's a huge difference between an argument and a debate). But I could just take your word for it, of course :tongue:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Well the fixation on collages as a whole but these ones particularly yes. I just can't imagine myself browsing through dozens of photos of people cuddling each other and stumbling upon a masterwork saying "YES! I FINALLY FOUND IT ! THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF HOW MUCH MY LIFE SUCKS COMPARED TO SOMEONE ELSE" and then be off to add a oneiric filter over it. Yeah...


:laughing: that's never how I would have thought of those things :laughing:
anyways they're not supposed to be things you hate, however they're also a horrible idea and you don't want to fall into the senseless collage-making hole I fell into



> @Nissa Nissa
> 
> Thoughts ?


Thanks for this, it's interesting! Just going to go through it, no need to read it all/respond)



> *IEEs are scattered, in life in general, and in what they say or write. Their thoughts flip-flop around. When they write, it often reads like fragment sentences (Fi-IEE) or disjointed random paragraphs that have been thrown in together (Ne-IEE).*


well, everyone tells me that
(My actual writing isn't like that though, it's just on here)



> They can't manage their own "bank" of physical resources, and often exhaust themselves and overtax their health. They'll continue being active when its waaay past the point of passing out. The disorganization means they have to put in more effort into what they are doing. On example of an IEE friend: we went grocery shopping, she already had a backpack on her, and came out with 7 bags that looked really uncomfortable the way she was carrying them, about to tear with all the produce rolling out on the road. We walked 10 steps before I asked her to stop, to combine the bags together, put some bags into her backpack, and adjust her backpack so it's sitting at mid-waist. This is the kind of helpless disorganization with which Childlike types attract help of Si types.


I can be slightly disorganized and covered with things falling everywhere, but I don't like this description of the IEE girl, I'm usually managing fine *as long as no one sees me and starts trying to 'solve' the problem*



> *There is an element of chaos about IEEs. *They can work in high pace stressful environments and miraculously make it out.
> Have a hard time keeping an interest in one thing or on one person.


I think I'm quite chaotic, yeah, also my brother and I used to have a system of...that people need different amounts of stress, like plants need different acidities in the soil, I'm a very high acidity/stress person, prefer high stress really
My interests revolve but usually stay constant to some extent and it doesn't extend to people.



> IEE girls barely use any make-up. They forget,* don't consider it necessary (weak sensing)*, and in general like a natural look.


Bolded is kinda rude :laughing:
I wear make-up almost every day, but not a lot, when I'm looking at photos it's rarely obvious that I have it on, often wish I could have more of a Kim Kardashian highly make-uped face but I have a weird face that wouldn't take it
Hate the idea that I'm lying and making myself seem prettier than I am, when I was thinner I wouldn't wear much, my goal was to beautiful on my own  but that goal is behind me, it's just damage control now



> FI-IEEs have stiff angular movement, not very feminine and gracious, but give them a dash of resilience.


No idea, but I remember someone in school telling me I walked in a hilariously violent manner like I was going to murder someone
have since adjusted my walking habits 



> Learn by means of someone telling them what to do, or how things work in sequences ("put this here, then adjust this here, then you got it made").


doesn't everyone?



> Even though they are "Aristocrats" like EIEs, they seem simpler and easier to approach. They will say compliments and speak with admiration about people who they think are talented. Totally not shy about this.


I think so, except that I am shy speaking well about people, it always seems ungenuine even if it's not and just uncomfortable things to say, I try to compliment them but I always feel like I'm insulting them by doing so :/



> *Have the hardest time working with physical details, and even noticing them.*


YES



> Both IEEs and EIEs are emotional (Passionate types) but the IEE is emotivist with creative Fi and demonstrative Fe, and gets out her emotions right away. If she is in a happy mood, she will tell you about it. If she is in a bad mood, you will know. If she is having mood swings, she will say so. Emotions are let out almost all the time. For the EIE this is much more difficult because the EIE is constructivist, with accepting Fe that accumulates emotions until the day they blow up and fireworks happen. It's very difficult for the EIE to dose or control their emotions than for the IEE. If you hang around these types, this is very striking.


not sure, different people are aware of different emotions of mine at different times, people who are close to me would say probably that I'm very heartless and don't express emotions, and very moody and constantly expressing emotions, at the same time  but I'd say I'm personally always very aware of what I'm feeling at the moment, wouldn't say it 'builds'



> EIEs hold themselves more like the literal interpretation of "aristocratic" dichotomy. With some distance. And reverence.


I'm very formal, think I tend to be distant (I once hugged my best friend when she was sad, after years of knowing each other, and she was so shocked, she said that it was the first time I'd hugged her), but also...really not distant, I miss some films other people have and tend to...have poor understanding of boundaries in general



> All of the EIEs I've met had some competitiveness and envy in them, and sometimes speak to people from the top or ridicule others with sarcasm or irony, like they are testing how much shit they will take from them. They don't brazenly shower people with compliments and flatter them like IEEs do. More likely to be critical or others, Ni-EIEs especially ("very ironic and critical, can be stinging and arrogant ... has penchant for sarcasm"). To sum: use negative motivation instead of compliments.


No not really, but people see me as more negativist than positivist, in general I want to seem more genuine and I don't want my flattery to be like candy. But not that critical, don't test people, I think it's more...entertaining? to be critical than that I'm actually critical



> Ni-EIEs can live in a messy apartment, but usually it's only them thinking that due to rationality--what they consider to be a mess is neatness embodied for many other types.


No I can be very messy, or very neat, depends on my mood and how much control I have over the environment, prefer tidiness



> Learn from rigorous, introverted logical analysis where every letter, every word builds up into this astonishingly intelligent argument (which only LSIs with their +Ti can do). Like to be given exactly what they need (Se hidden agenda) to do their work.


No opinion



> Dislike poverty. Sensitive to it, to conditions where can't take care of themselves and make do. Usually Si polr is associated with comfort and health, but the broader interpretation also has to do with income, and whether you can provide a certain standard of living for yourself.


I can rough it all right, I say but I'm not sure



> Some EIE girls seem posh, high-maintenance, high-upkeep. Pose like they are the "upper class". If they have to speak before an audience, they look very collected and neat. Sit with their legs together, without stretching or slacking.


lol no, of course if I'm sitting in front of an audience I'll be wearing holey sweatpants and stretching out my legs and slouching over 

(in fact I'm very formal, always try to sit the best way, used to practice walking with a book on my head, can't say I always have great posture and if I'm alone I'll sit in strange positions and such, hate sharing a room for that reason, I'm forced to have my etiquette on the whole time :laughing

I would kinda like to think I come off posh/aristocratic/even high-maintenance  but I'm not sure if I do, I don't come off...Paris Hilton/Kim K-ish at least, I remember being told in middle school 'it was like you lived under a rock and then went to finishing school', honestly the best description of me



> EIE girls seem more feminine than IEE girls and certainly use more makeup.


again not sure how to quantify how much make-up I use, I find it tiring what some girls do with ALL THE PRODUCTS, it really is more disaster relief in my case, but I do put effort into my appearance, just try to be time-effective as well, never spend much time in front of a mirror



> Like expensive gifts and purchases, will show them off. (I saw a typing of ISIS leader as EIE, and there is a photograph of him wearing a Rolex circulating around.) Can overspend but feel a limit, and don't go into serious debt.


Yes, I admit I have a temptation towards buying expensive things and all that, the limit I feel is not where it should be either
But I am against it for moral reasons and I try to just buy the reasonable thing that will serve and look all right, try not to indulge that vanity.



> Don't like chaos, disruptions, more likely to be like LSIs--stick to one organization and work their way up to higher position and better pay. *If they are evil,* they will try to set up their competition by means of intrigue, e.g. figure out who dislikes that person and try to form an alliance with them, or try to worsen and amplify their conflicts, mistakes, and failures, with the end goal to bring them down and take over their place.


None of this is relatable but it amuses me :laughing:



> Nice well-adjusted EIEs get promoted through their personal charisma, their superb organizational skills, their ability to motivate people to action and inspire them with their vision, their own energy and intelligence, and don't need to resort to setting up others like the crappy EIEs do it.


I don't get promoted at all



> Visually EIEs looks more organized, more mindful of how they look to others, and worried about their appearance than the IEEs. You wouldn't catch an EIE looking like my IEE friend after that trip to a grocery store.


You could catch me overwhelmed with bags, but I don't think I'm such a slob as all that. But there is often something going wrong

I think in general IEE sounds more like me? 



mistakenforstranger said:


> Hmm, think IEE was more fitting, but I did originally think you were EIE, so I don't know, but I don't think sp/so. You didn't seem that way on camera, and you're one of the more open members on this forum. Think sp/so can be guarded, but maybe it's different in Extroverts. Definitely something with Social. I could see so/sx too?


yeah, I'm not that guarded (more in real life? but then not really also, it's confusing)
But also, 27x seems unlikely to be super guarded in any case
But...well, I kinda agree with you  but I'm not sure what to make of things
and I feel like a lot of people have said I seemed like a sx-last 9 or something from my videos
which I don't agree with but I'm not qualified to judge myself :frustrating:
so/sx isn't crazy definitely, have trouble with social neurosis though (though for example my vanity with expensive things could be related, it's also...such a sunny stack, I'm not a very sunny person)



> @*mp2* has read Finnegans Wake. Twice! He says it's one of his favorite books too, or maybe he just said he liked it more than Ulysses (Joseph Campbell had the same opinion), but I haven't attempted it yet.


well that's extremely upsetting :angry:
(seriously, I'm impressed)
My dad had a recording of Joyce reading an excerpt out loud and it made so much more sense that way than on the page, I think it might be better when you find the voice for it
I remember seeing once that Ulysses was an imprint of day and Finnegan's Wake is the night, found it intriguing 
Well, that will be a project for a distant day, hope I don't die without reading it


> Like Slime said, ILE or EIE, but still think he's ENTP in MBTI. Think Blazes Boylan is meant to be the SLE. Can you get a more Se name than that haha?


True xD



> Oh, @*ElectricSlime*, I've shared this on here before, but think this is a great example of IEI-SLE duality. :laughing:
> 
> James Joyce Picked Drunken Fights, Then Hid Behind Ernest Hemingway | Open Culture


I love this so much



> Yes, great example of 9, Social subtype too. I think he's 9w1 so/sp. He knows his wife is going to cheat on him, so he avoids it, by doing errands all day haha. Yes, and I'm sure it was with me!


hahaha yep 



> :shocked: I'm impressed. And yes, that's why I like Joyce, because of the poetic nature of his prose. Joyce said, "The demand I make of my reader is that he should devote his whole life to reading my works." :shocked:


that makes me want his books to fall out of immortality and for no one ever to read them 

______________

had more to say and wanted to respond to other things but my laptop is almost uncharged and I'm in a sort of situation where I can't use it an charge it at the same time, so tomorrow hopefully


----------



## Rose for a Heart

.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Rose for a Heart

How is stranger not nice ?


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Depends on the 9, but something I've noticed in several 9w1s and phobic 6s is that they'll evade answering and beat around the bush to avoid having to comply when they don't like a request, rather than flat out say no and risk "conflict".
> 
> It is extremely annoying.
> 
> 9w8s are still at their core complying people and so* they don't go around asserting themselves on others*, but they have a much easier time defending their own boundaries and offering resistance.


I agree about the bolded, in most cases...that's probably a reasonable difference, though, being asserting themselves on others and defending boundaries 
I do think 9s tend to be sensitive to the feeling of being imposed on being they easily can be. (sometimes I'll notice 9s even getting upset that their will is being imposed upon even after they have been being evasive, people make a decision and then it's 'why is it always what you want to do?' though I don't think that happens with every 9...but I think it's a reaction to maybe feeling like other people are making the main decisions, even if it's because you stepped out of the driver seat, one of those Enneagramical ironies)

But I see 9s as like...not wanting to be moved, so like what you are talking about comes from that I think (as well as 'not knowing what you want' thing), not letting other people affect you, which can extend to literal actual stubbornness, or presenting a pretty autopilot face?

Well those are my impressions



Rose for a Heart said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Nissa Nissa</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> with Te, I sense this energy and momentum of gears turning, of putting energy into something in order to be productive towards a goal. But with mfs, I see he uses facts, there's no dynamic energy behind it. It's just...for the purpose of using those facts to make his point in that moment. I also mentioned the "inertia" I sense in Te PoLR, so to give you an example of that...
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you can sense it, but I clearly sense that lack of Te energy in this particular YouTuber who I believe is IEI.


Ok, this video was difficult to watch more than a couple minutes of - and I wouldn't have phrased it as 'lack of inertia' so much as '' but I think I see what you mean? 
But I don't have a good idea of what's going on with the facts thing though
(one of nicest people on this thread though, I don't understand that assessment, do you mean something specific?)



Vixey said:


> Well you could be
> But yes it could be many things, even says this on top of the article
> "these are only preliminary results based on questioning a small group of people whose socionic types were known to the author. "


Ah true)


> I think about like...texture and flow of them a lot, Si-ish maybe, like I think about where the eye goes and transitions between images as well as overall picture.
> And think sx can contribute to squeeziness and Se-ish impression, Alpha generally sounds syn flow So-ish or something if syn flow is a thing, like ESE so/sx and SEI sp/so maybe but don't think it's that way in reality.
> Also don't relate to some Beta things, like remember seeing something about partner helping with career or some Beta-ish mission, or that thing about EIE that you talked about a while ago (something about challenging people?)


I think about how images connect (like oh this part looks like this part so it's like they're connected) but it feels more like a Ne thing maybe? have trouble understanding eyeflow things



> That first one was kinda partly inspired by this song, not fully but like the feel, colors and such more than anything, used a yellow flower instead of a butterfly for example
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Touch my knees
> Hey my darling, throw out flyes
> out of your beautiful blond little head,
> don't be a child, put on slippers,
> stay at home.
> Hug me gently
> and act natural,
> make me some coffee, make a sandwich,
> serve me nicely and please me.
> 
> Hey little darling, leave dolls
> that chase and bother you,
> don't be a child, buy me dresses,
> silver necklaces,
> red raspberries
> and ticket to America.
> We know each other already almost ten days,
> give me your car and key of the apartment.
> 
> Refrain:
> Hey, the day smells like a fresh milk,
> birds are singing aloud,
> wind is shaking morning,
> touch my knees, that's what I would like!
> Hey blue sky is rushing in the apartment,
> yellow butterfly fondles my neck,
> wind is shaking morning,
> touch my knees, that's what I would like!
> 
> Hey little darling, throw out flyes
> out of your beautiful blond little head,
> don't be a child, put on slippers,
> stay at home.
> Hug me gently
> and act natural,
> make me some coffee, make a sandwich,
> serve me nicely and please me.
> 
> :laughing:


:butterfly: I like this)



> I guess more Se-ish than yours usually are?
> 
> Really like this one, tried to make a gold collage but can't make it work :frustrating:
> My collages are smooth in a way I guess but have a hard time with smoothness at the same time in a way, like for example I go looking for gold images and end up falling in love with something like this and then go with a different idea because too much gold doesn't go with it and :frustrating:
> View attachment 779561
> 
> (Is that Si-ish?)


(not sure)

I'm not totally happy with this one because the colours should have been bolder and yeah, but I couldn't combine it nicely without a little bit of images conceding to other images



> I think so but I'm wondering about the quote


It's from this song:






which I love, feels like magic to me, and reminds me of something I'd associate with Se at least? or Ni
I think I wanted a different quote from that song ('the city is my church?' or another one, still doesn't sound that Se-ish) but that one had a pretty design that matched my thing better and that's a fine quote
do regret some of the images though


> It's so hard to find actual couple pictures that I like, everything's so...idk what, not appealing at best.
> Thing that felt Se to me but could easily be Sx, the kind of thing I like is like
> View attachment 779585
> 
> View attachment 779593
> 
> Or like the ones in my collages
> 
> Like you can hardly be any closer to someone unless maybe if you eat them but this is not dissolve-y
> (don't know if it actually feels _squeezy_ either?)


yeah :frustrating:
I didn't know there was more from the skeleton and the mermaid, I'm so happy :skeleton: the don't.you.dare one was the best I think, some of them are disappointing me because they ruined the mystery a little, these are nice:




















> Sorry for not being much help with that, tbh I didn't think of it as my collages being squeezy, just squeeziness/maybe just Se somewhat showing in my collages but it's different, not too confident in determining level of squeeziness of collages


No, that's a lot to ask really and I probably should not have gone that direction)
Well my point somehow was that yours have something I'd associate with Alpha but I'm not sure how to put it and it's probably not valid



> I'd definitely hate it :laughing:
> Once I went to a chocolate factory, not even chocolate can make visiting a factory fun. (well to be fair chocolate is not my favorite thing, depends on my mood, but I don't think I'd enjoy a visit to any kind of factory)


I would like the Willy Wonka factory at least
But yes, it's a terrible idea, who thought the fun of a museum could be combined with the fun of a factory



> So grateful actual sun doesn't have a face!


:sun-smiley:

That would be definitely something (I've been thinking about this since I read it)

Don't like sun things much, always was annoyed by depictions of the sun for some reason


----------



## Immolate

Rose for a Heart said:


> I am actually thinking more towards Ti/Fe-Fe/Ti for you now because you are not very...nice.


How is this a respectful way to type someone, or to approach types in general?

Did you take offense at what he shared about Fi base?


----------



## Mr Castelo

Paradigm said:


> I struggle to deduce what the main reason is for me, whether it's me being clinically depressed for over a decade or something more akin to just being my natural state, but I can relate to this to some extent. Main difference is, to some people I come off as overly-detached, while to others (and myself) I come off as weirdly "emotional" at random times even if it might not be exactly _emotional_ (that is, it's more perceived being such).


I've also pondered about this. I think, for me, it's more of a natural state. The difference you describe might not be there, because I do feel that, to myself, I am a bit emotional -- or at least, I do know that I have feelings, I just have _some_ trouble expressing them. If I put feelings into words, it's like they lose their "weight", like they become a caricature of what I really feel. Sometimes I can use that to my advantage by talking about things that have affected me in a negative way, but it doesn't always work (in fact, it can have the opposite effect).



> (And I fluctuate between my base of "true neutral" to "neutral good," depending on how much "Fi" I end up "channeling" :tongue: If I were to put it in broad CF shorthand, a lot of the time the unexpected-to-me perception comes from Ti/Fe users.)


It also generally works like that for me. If I perceive something to be "wrong", my Fi will let me know it. I may not immediately know what is wrong, but I'll have this feeling that something is "off". Fi also takes over sometimes when I'm talking about an interest that I really like, I can't contain my enthusiasm.



> Moving on, I see 9 as being fairly common in Thinkers, especially IxTx, and that the 9 "inertia/apathy" you mention gets mistaken as 5 "detachedness" a lot. It's really similar, and sometimes hard to describe the differences. Generally the best people to try to describe this are people who have gone through the experience of strongly considering 9 and 5 core.


Yeah, it's hard to differentiate the two. To be honest, whether it's inertia or detachedness doesn't matter as much, I feel like I have a bit of both as I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I don't expect the Enneagram to tell me a hidden truth about myself because that sounds pretty improbable. At most, it makes me see some things in a different light and helps me understand other people better.



ElectricSlime said:


> And since it gets brought up sometimes, is anyone here _not_ depressed ?
> 
> Cause I do feel like this place is used as a refuge for the broken sometimes, often actually.


There probably are multiple reasons for this. My theory is because typology deals with things like identity, relationships and human behavior, and those are areas in which people tend to struggle a lot with -- typology offers some answers for them. It also requires tons of introspection and self-analysis, and my impression is that people who are more introspective (usually introverts) are more prone to depression. This site also attracts a lot of teenagers, and we know how they are like.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Immolate said:


> How is this a respectful way to type someone, or to approach types in general?
> 
> Did you take offense at what he shared about Fi base?


Instead of being direct and genuine about my mistake (Te with Se) about inertia he went about it in an indirect way poking fun at what he presumes is my understanding of Te...when he said “here’s more Te *wink*” and just showed me quotes about 1D Se. I find that insulting not nice.
and since you mentioned respect...he wasn’t being respectful to me to begin with. Or did you not feel like calling that out?


----------



## Immolate

Rose for a Heart said:


> Instead of being direct and genuine about my mistake (Te with Se) about inertia he went about it in an indirect way poking fun at what he presumes is my understanding of Te...when he said “here’s more Te *wink*” and just showed me quotes about 1D Se. I find that insulting not nice.


I suggest you take a different approach.



> and since you mentioned respect...he wasn’t being respectful to me to begin with. Or did you not feel like calling that out?


My direct and genuine response is that I didn't see a problem with his post, and it's irrelevant anyhow because the point is that you're typing people a certain way based on how you may or may not like them.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Immolate said:


> I suggest you take a different approach.
> 
> 
> 
> My direct and genuine response is that I didn't see a problem with his post, and it's irrelevant anyhow because the point is that you're typing people a certain way based on how you may or may not like them.


I am not going to just ignore when someone is insulting me...sorry. 

And if you wish I phrased it another way...he prefers merry over serious, or “playfulness” as others have pointed out. Which is why I wondered about Fe over Fi.


----------



## Immolate

Rose for a Heart said:


> I am not going to just ignore when someone is insulting me...sorry.






> And if you wish I phrased it another way...he prefers merry over serious, or “playfulness” as others have pointed out. Which is why I wondered about Fe over Fi.


You didn't catch that playfulness before you felt insulted by him?

For the sake of moving on, you said you were thinking Ti ego for him unless I misread the post you deleted. I'll leave that here so others can pursue it if they want to.


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> I am not going to just ignore when someone is insulting me...sorry.
> 
> And if you wish I phrased it another way...he prefers merry over serious, or “playfulness” as others have pointed out. Which is why I wondered about Fe over Fi.


So you decided to type them based on how you didn't like them? Isn't that typism and against the rules? I'm glad @Immolate quoted your post before you deleted it.


----------



## Dangerose

*looked up spelling*

@Vixey remembered, you made a collage for this song I think?






(Or one with a similar title)

(I know you said you didn't really like the song but still the collage as I remember it and the concept (on you, pearls and silk) feels Alpha SFish if not Seish?

guess I don't have a lot to add but I was thinking of something like that about your collages

I mean, not just your collages but yeah that thing, wonder what it is type-wise

i always hear život'' like 'stomach' because that's what it means in Russian though it's also a word for 'life', just the first thing that comes to mind is a stomach


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Immolate said:


> You didn't catch that playfulness before you felt insulted by him?


i found his statement both at the same time.
you are rolling your eyes at me when I tell you how I genuinely feel...?


----------



## Asd456

Seems like @Rose for a Heart was offended, regardless if it was delivered in a playful way or not. Let's just be nice and move on.


----------



## Dangerose

(Back to ENFP, there's just a 'thing' about ENFJ that's wrong, like the thing Slime posted, I'm just not so...no idea what the word is, don't have role Te I guess)

leaving sp/so though it feels wrong, I'm tempted to put so/sx but I don't want to because it feels like the 'obvious' choice but also really wrong so yeah)


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> Hmm that does sound more like 9 to me, but could be a 9 wing?


ah, really? I can see where you're coming from. not sure if I relate to the basic fears of type 9 yet though (loss and separation/annihilation) more than type 1 (becoming corrupt and defective)

also thought my answer might be Fe related.



Tad Cooper said:


> Yeah I think so! I also think that anxiety/trust issues gets confused with type 6 when it isn't just for that type but also just how some people are!


Agreed. this seems quite possible, think the difference is that 6s have a lack of trust in themselves and their ability to guide themselves, therefore relying on something else. while trust issues is more about the fear of someones intentions and commitment.



Tad Cooper said:


> Ah yeah, what sorts of things? (Im curious!)


Well I can relate to the anger fixation generally as an underlying feeling, I often realise I get frustrated at things in my daily life but don't often express it (which is why I ruled out 8). It's hard to know what kind of things exactly, because it tends to be anything from noticing someone's bad traits or flawed character, to general pet peeves and things that bug me. 

If I witness someone doing something wrong, even if it's not directed at me, I find it impossible to remain indifferent to it. It angers me a lot while others just don't react really? Maybe...i'm just short tempered and a little impatient? xD

Actually there is a video I can relate to a lot by this youtuber who does animations;

* *
















Tad Cooper said:


> Yeah and it doesnt fit me in my opinion haha!
> No worries, I tend to be a bit mean with the English, despite being English myself, because so many suck! There are nice ones of course, just so many annoying/ignorant/unreasonable ones etc!! They can be amusing but also disappointing.


That sucks, sounds like a bad community maybe. A lot of Scottish people can be quite blunt and impatient, but mostly people here are decent enough. Only thing that bothers me is how many people talk about others behind their back and say something negative about them. I witness so many people doing this everyday and it kinda sucks.



Tad Cooper said:


> Yes! See the 1ish thing there is how I react, is that the same with you? I think theyre not opposites but can appear so with their behaviour maybe? Also a heavy wing can affect how the type appears I think.


Hmm well I thought "developing dissatisfaction with everything" was a little vague. I avoid stress and conflict that much that I don't find myself dealing with it that often, or nothing major anyway. I have last year though so naturally I just want to rid my life of that negativity and unnecessary stress..it's hard to tell if this is 9 core or just natural for anyone to do. 

I avoid looking at wing descriptions actually, find it easier to learn about each individually first and take it from there.



Tad Cooper said:


> Thanks, yeah its definitely something people have when younger and eventually can grow out of but also can stick with you if you dont have a good environment for recovery think.


I've noticed that with people, finding it hard to recover when their in a bad environment or situation.



Tad Cooper said:


> Ah interesting! you're sure on 1,4,6 for you?


Not really solid on tri type yet, only the types that are very likely - 1, 9, and 6. Image type is either 2w1 or 4w5 I think.
Did a questionnaire recently actually and type 7 and 2 were also suggested, so considering those. 



Tad Cooper said:


> Oh thanks! Yeah 9 doesnt work for me, but I'll look into 8, why do you think 8 by the way? Im curious about SP as lots of people say it! (Im really bad with pushing myself too hard and not sleeping enough, doing too much, letting myself stay ill or injured because getting myself fixed is less important than my tasks etc)


Having awareness and issues of autonomy is characteristic of the gut triad, and that's what I noticed from you. 8s also want to be self reliant, it seems to be one of their motivations i think.

Now I look back on it though I can see why 3 was also considered. It's one of the types I haven't learned about. 

Overall there seems to be an awareness your own competency and abilities. This in particular reminds me of the vice of 3s, which is "deceit";


Tad Cooper said:


> Dark side: How easy it can be to move people in the direction you want, feeling that kind of power, disliking but also liking it.
> Motivations for dark side: Can see the end goal, the big finish, and how to get there but cant make it alone (due to society requiring certain things)


(Haven't looked into what deceit actually means though. Anyone have thoughts on this?)

So overall I could see type 8:
Key Motivations: Want to be self-reliant, to prove their strength and resist weakness, to be important in their world, to dominate the environment, and to stay in control of their situation.

or 3:
Basic Fear: Of being worthless
Basic Desire: To feel valuable and worthwhile
Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.


----------



## Dangerose

Wisteria said:


> That sucks, sounds like a bad community maybe. A lot of Scottish people can be quite blunt and impatient, but mostly people here are decent enough. Only thing that bothers me is how many people talk about others behind their back and say something negative about them. I witness so many people doing this everyday and it kinda sucks.


maybe it's just being so far north 
Been living in Scotland recently, not with Scottish people but every time someone leaves the room someone says something bad about them, think it's just these specific people, just funny because I'd been thinking about it

The other day, one guy was talking about how much some other people drank, a bit later he left and someone else was like 'oh good, we were spared another of his stories', now I'm here complaining about that, just keep hearing bad things about other people, it's like everyone hates each other 

really hate that kind of judgment and forget that people might be doing that, also drives me crazy because obviously they're doing it about me too  

was wondering if it was a 9ish thing, I'm just not the type to for example sit and talk about how much someone else drinks in that way, maybe if I were concerned about them or trying to plan how much alcohol to give them, but...it's not my business, they should be let alone 

Used to think I liked negative judgments and gossip but I think it was before I knew people who made lots of negative judgments and gossip, I thought gossip was just a fun thing speculating about other people's love lives 

(I know that's not morally clear either but I don't know, it seems to strip people of so much dignity to be making little negative notes and then saving them for anecdotes, it's strange in a way to me that the world is like that)

edit: to be clear I have no problem with Scottish people, this was about people of completely different nationalities who just happen to be in Scotland)

Don't post quote place things, afraid people from real life will run across this page somehow


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Immolate said:


> How is this a respectful way to type someone, or to approach types in general?
> 
> Did you take offense at what he shared about Fi base?


I'm not sure if I said anything about Fi-base, but if I did, people can point it out to me. I think if there was anyone I wasn't being nice to, or at least I will say was unfair to, it was @*owlet* earlier by forcing her into the Intertype relationship category I had decided, when I had forgotten certain things that would lead her to care more in that particular situation. I felt bad about that, once I realized it. 



Rose for a Heart said:


> Instead of being direct and genuine about my mistake (Te with Se) about inertia he went about it in an indirect way poking fun at what he presumes is my understanding of Te...when he said “here’s more Te *wink*” and just showed me quotes about 1D Se. I find that insulting not nice.
> and since you mentioned respect...he wasn’t being respectful to me to begin with. Or did you not feel like calling that out?


I'm sorry if you're hurt by it, but I wasn't really trying to be mean. I'm just snarky, which I guess can come across as mean, but I love my snark , and maybe can get carried away with it, and often can become that way as a defense mechanism too. I actually don't know if quoting sources is Te, as I often do, but I was just playing on that idea with you that I am possibly a Te-user since I brought up _more_ _quotes_ in the process to show you that inertia is related to 1D Se, not Te PoLR (which I still do believe). I mean, I'm not helping my case by doing so. It's supposed to be funny (in a groan-inducing way), or even self-deprecating, rather than a jab at you.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

I can't respond to people since it's impossible to do on my phone, but here's that MBTI/cognitive function test I mentioned in my last post, if anyone is interested in it. It's not based on Socionics functional definitions, so if you're only looking for your Sociotype it's best to ignore it. Seems accurate from a cognitive function/MBTI perspective, though.

Typologycentral Keirsey and Jung Test


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> I can't respond to people since it's impossible to do on my phone, but here's that MBTI/cognitive function test I mentioned in my last post, if anyone is interested in it. It's not based on Socionics functional definitions, so if you're only looking for your Sociotype it's best to ignore it. Seems accurate from a cognitive function/MBTI perspective, though.
> 
> Typologycentral Keirsey and Jung Test


Got ENFJ but my function order is Fe-Si-Ti=Se>Ni>Fi>Ne>Te


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Vixey said:


> Got ENFJ but my function order is Fe-Si-Ti=Se>Ni>Fi>Ne>Te


Wow, that is strange it returned ENFJ from that order. And with such high Ti too for a Fe-dom?  I mean, it is an inferior function after all.

I retook it again and now scored ENFJ, but here was my order...Fe > Ne > Ni > Ti > Fi > Se > Si > Te

4D Fe/Ne?


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> I can't respond to people since it's impossible to do on my phone, but here's that MBTI/cognitive function test I mentioned in my last post, if anyone is interested in it. It's not based on Socionics functional definitions, so if you're only looking for your Sociotype it's best to ignore it. Seems accurate from a cognitive function/MBTI perspective, though.
> 
> Typologycentral Keirsey and Jung Test


OW










58 QUESTIONS for that


----------



## mp2

I got ENTP :shocked: 

Ne > Ni > Ti > Te = Si > Fe > Fi > Se


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> OW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 58 QUESTIONS for that


:laughing: 
(I'd be so pissed off)

Oh, and I got something like 'we're very confident that you're an ENFJ' :shocked: @mistakenforstranger so weird, don't think you're an ENFJ but your function order definitely makes more sense with ENFJ than mine.


----------



## Immolate

:distant:


I would not take this seriously.


----------



## Dangerose

why would an ENTP have Fi first :angry:


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Immolate said:


> :distant:
> 
> 
> I would not take this seriously.


What in the world?? :laughing: I still think it can be somewhat useful for function order, but I'm not sure how it's calculating those MBTI results along with it.

Sorry, @*Nissa Nissa*.  Also, "The test may not work for everyone" is some straight-up bullshit! 

@*mp2*, I could see those results being in line with INTP too. Strong Ne/Ti + Ni, weak Fe/Se.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Fits so well that I'm suspicious. Already did that test once and got ENTJ.

I also like how Fe is basically "you blindly follow other people/society's morals".


----------



## mp2

mistakenforstranger said:


> @*mp2*, I could see those results being in line with INTP too. Strong Ne/Ti + Ni, weak Fe/Se.


Oh yeah I don't think I could be ENTP haha. Plus, wouldn't Te=Si be odd for ENTP? 

Looks like my results are either very accurate or very inaccurate depending on which INXP I am


----------



## ElectricSlime

Huh


----------



## Dangerose

About subtypes @Tad Cooper, don't think it's a good idea to base your typing on them as the descriptions are pretty...in some cases 'where did that come from?' I think they are more of a theory about how the type + instinct will show up and in some cases illustrate patterns but in some cases just muddle the picture and it's better to type these things separately and figure out how they work for you...

So I'd look at social 7 if that's ringing any bells but it's also kinda a human thing to try to seem good, but if you don't think social instinct and type 7 work for you then it shouldn't come out of nowhere

Do you relate to 7 gluttony? (Gluttony...literal, or for ideas, experiences, etc?) how do you relate to the social instinct? etc


----------



## owlet

Wisteria said:


> Ah ok, I forgot that was also characteristic of 7s possibly. That makes sense.
> 
> I prevent or avoid it when it's not worth investing the energy I guess? But if the person for example has a "wrong" opinion or attitude about something then I do sometimes confront them about it or state my opinion regardless, even if it's not really worthwhile and might cause more conflict. At least i have done that in the past, sometimes this feeling of anger or indignation just gets the better of me, idk.


Hmm, that sounds just like being reasonable to me, although I wonder how you settled on 1 over 9 specifically. Did you relate to the idea of anger being repressed for this kind of reason?


> In the effort to stay true to their principles, Ones resist being affected by their instinctual drives, consciously not giving in to them or expressing them too freely. The result is a personality type that has problems with repression, resistance, and aggression. They are usually seen by others as highly self- controlled, even rigid, although this is not how Ones experience themselves. It seems to them that they are sitting on a cauldron of passions and desires, and they had better “keep the lid on” lest they and everyone else around them regret it.





Nissa Nissa said:


> OW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 58 QUESTIONS for that


Same. I wish they at least gave your results in terms of functions (especially after the time it took to complete).


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Same. I wish they at least gave your results in terms of functions (especially after the time it took to complete).


heyy no-type buddies :words::hugs:
(for real, I would have wanted to see something )


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Trying to take the test, but...









...They all sound the least like me. :frustrating:

(And if that sounds like I'm just being self-deprecating, I showed it to my SO and he even agreed quite empathically that none of them sounds like me.)

*Fake edit:* It was inconclusive.


----------



## Paradigm

mistakenforstranger said:


> Seems accurate from a cognitive function/MBTI perspective, though.
> 
> Typologycentral Keirsey and Jung Test


Ehhh. Only if your understanding of functions sucks. This is to CFs as aspartame is to sugar. Which I guess makes their "Keirsey" label correct, but certainty not Jung. There were a few questions that felt like they "got it," but most of them not so much.

Admittedly, though, first test that got "NTJ," which I can't tell says something about the test (I never test as NTJ) or my current mindset. Probably the latter; I likely "gamed" it.
https://i.imgur.com/tOrPChQ.png

ENTJ
Te > Fi = Ni > Ne = Se > Si > Ti > Fe

(Edit: I keep half-giggling at the idea of an ENTJ with stupidly strong P and Fi tendencies. I'll stick with INTJ/INTp, thanks.)


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> Trying to take the test, but...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...They all sound the least like me. :frustrating:
> 
> (And if that sounds like I'm just being self-deprecating, I showed it to my SO and he even agreed quite empathically that none of them sounds like me.)
> 
> *Fake edit:* It was inconclusive.


I went with first one without thinking but now I'm questioning it :laughing:
Feel like I tend to choose Fe options automatically because like...I really think I'm xxFJ so everything Fe seems true on some level or at least more right than other ones  , one of the things that make tests useless.


----------



## Brains

This test is hilarious.

"Based on the answers you have provided to the questions, we are very confident that your four letter type is
INTP
The order of preference for your cognitive functions appears to be
Ti = Fe > Ni = Si > Ne > Fi = Se > Te"

Can't get more Jungian than leading with Ti and Fe in equal measure, amazing.


----------



## Manuscript

Brains said:


> The order of preference for your cognitive functions appears to be
> Ti = Fe > Ni = Si > Ne > Fi = Se > Te"
> 
> Can't get more Jungian than leading with Ti and Fe in equal measure, amazing.


That stack looks like an INFJ who has their Ti and Ni muddled together; you'd even get the Te PoLR from Socionics. I got this:

Ne > Ti > Ni > Fi > Si > Fe > Se > Te

I have a vague recollection that this sort of stack is common for INTPs taking cognitive function tests, although Te and Fi tend to float around.


----------



## Brains

Manuscript said:


> That stack looks like an INFJ who has their Ti and Ni muddled together; you'd even get the Te PoLR from Socionics. I got this:
> 
> Ne > Ti > Ni > Fi > Si > Fe > Se > Te
> 
> I have a vague recollection that this sort of stack is common for INTPs taking cognitive function tests, although Te and Fi tend to float around.


Yeah, the typing's absurd, is all.


----------



## Dangerose

(Does anyone have opinions on Fe vs Fi for me? :/)
ENFP seems like it fits better in general but I'm really not sure what to do with Fi except that I use a lot of F obviously but Fe seems more me according to almost every definition

Was going to add, wrote that thing about in social situations putting out Fe and then feeling like the song '_sometimes I feel like, somebody dance with me'_ (just amuses me because it's like the Michael Jackson song except made better), meant that really literally almost, often in these kinds of social situations where I don't seem to be fitting in or it's like I'm from a different planet and I feel like I'm barely anchored to the ground and I want to disappear/am both in danger of actually doing so but sticking out like a sore thumb, always think that I want someone to walk into the room and kiss me, like that's the only thing that would solve it

Like in reality it would be weird if that happened obviously, more like a trope in my mind or a sensation, less literal than if a crazy person said that but more literal than it could sound

Is that so/sx? sx/so somehow or anything instincty? 9ish or just 2ish?

it's like the social situation is the thing that's upsetting/ungrounding me but it's definitely something more sx-ish that I want, maybe it's like I want more sx from the social situation anyways, but that's not how I'd think of it

Make any sense?


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa not sure about instincts, I guess confusing thing to me, maybe other people too, is that you explain things in indirect, kinda...idealized and intellectualized (but not like T intellectual)? ways that to me sound not instinctive  , hard to explain, partly maybe why people aren't seeing sx? (but not sure if it's related to sx or not, just makes you sound more...removed and broadly focused and something, like I guess things sound like some kind of concept rather than just things)
ENFP-ish maybe?

But not sure, in general I'd say Fe over Fi but not sure what to make of the fact that IEE has 4D Fe, Delta and Fi valuing descriptions don't make it look like the best fit but if I can be Alpha and Si valuing then you can probably be Delta and Fi valuing 
But could see ESFJ too :frustrating:
Higher Ne just makes a bit more sense to be and meant to say earlier but forgot, Ni ignoring I think seems more right than PoLR?


----------



## Darkbloom

Can someone explain to me what this means


> The individual is quite adept at understanding the interactions in personal bonds between two individuals, even in the absence of an obvious external emotional expression; but he is inclined to regard them as of lesser importance, and less interesting, than the broader emotional interactions in the context of a larger group. Moreover, those personal bonds are perceived as situational and dynamic rather than static.


Could actually see Fi demonstrative for myself but not sure how to interpret this, what are situational and dynamic bonds?
Once I have a bond I expect it to be there forever and in all situations.


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> @Nissa Nissa not sure about instincts, I guess confusing thing to me, maybe other people too, is that you explain things in indirect, kinda...idealized and intellectualized (but not like T intellectual)? ways that to me sound not instinctive  , hard to explain, partly maybe why people aren't seeing sx? (but not sure if it's related to sx or not, just makes you sound more...removed and broadly focused and something, like I guess things sound like some kind of concept rather than just things)
> ENFP-ish maybe?


Huh
Abstracted?
I think...I'm too much in my own head to know what that means exactly or see it in myself, like I don't think everything in my life is idealized and intellectualized  except I also think I know what you mean, compared to other people for example...

or well I know I come off _so_ airy-fairy and I think that's connected, never sure why people see that _so_ much and I feel like...

hm, thanks for this observation, feels like it has some weight

Do you think it's type-related, like N-dom-ish? or for instinct social is supposed to be the abstracting instinct or something, yeah? or something? (question for everyone)



> But not sure, in general I'd say Fe over Fi but not sure what to make of the fact that IEE has 4D Fe, Delta and Fi valuing descriptions don't make it look like the best fit but if I can be Alpha and Si valuing then you can probably be Delta and Fi valuing
> But could see ESFJ too :frustrating:
> Higher Ne just makes a bit more sense to be and meant to say earlier but forgot, Ni ignoring I think seems more right than PoLR?


Thanks)
(Not sure you can be Alpha though  you seem so much more Beta or Gamma, still think SEE is a possibility? but yes)
Feel like I ignore Ni hard though, but it doesn't seem like a good PoLR, you're right


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> Huh
> Abstracted?
> I think...I'm too much in my own head to know what that means exactly or see it in myself, like I don't think everything in my life is idealized and intellectualized  except I also think I know what you mean, compared to other people for example...
> 
> or well I know I come off _so_ airy-fairy and I think that's connected, never sure why people see that _so_ much and I feel like...


I don't think everything in your life is like that but with some things, I think especially sometimes when you talk about instincts, doesn't usually stand out as a thing though I think, it just suddenly becomes so hard to place certain kind of thing...

Don't usually think about it consciously, sorry for being so vague :/



> hm, thanks for this observation, feels like it has some weight
> 
> Do you think it's type-related, like N-dom-ish? or for instinct social is supposed to be the abstracting instinct or something, yeah? or something? (question for everyone)


Thinking maybe N dom, not sure about Social but it is part of why I see Social at least I think, and was thinking strong head fix or something, it's also partly why I thought 6w7 that one time (when I think everyone-ish thought 6w7) but I didn't really know how to explain it, still don't really but

Also think it comes across as a bit 1-ish or w1-ish to me sometimes? 



> Thanks)
> (Not sure you can be Alpha though  you seem so much more Beta or Gamma, still think SEE is a possibility? but yes)
> Feel like I ignore Ni hard though, but it doesn't seem like a good PoLR, you're right


Forgot SEE was still a possibility but I agree 
Honestly I kinda feel Gamma but I'm not used to it so...


----------



## nep2une

mistakenforstranger said:


> You mentioned IEIs being into astrology, and that is very true, and a prime example of a Te PoLR endeavor. I'm not into astrology myself, do find it interesting and would like to know more, but I know about 3 IEIs on here who do study it. Astrology is very Ni + Ti and Te PoLR, because you can't prove any of it is true. Above all, Te wants proof and for something to be objectively verifiable. Ni-doms, especially INFJs, can believe in all sorts of things not of this world. :crazy:


And here I am, popping in with a puff of smoke, to mention I did indeed use to have an interest in astrology…

(not saying I'm IEI, because what I'm going to label as in socionics is a "?" right now)

Fairly obvious from my screen name… I like the symbolism of that particular planet and I think it shows the things that fascinate me (but that I don't necessarily engage in myself, or recommend to others) fairly well.



> Neptune does have its showier side, as it rules movies, television, theater, fashion and all forms of glamour.





> The shadow side of Neptune is akin to the aging star who cannot make one more curtain. When the lights are low, this planet plays in a netherworld of drugs, alcohol, trances and hypnosis. Neptunian energy reeks of escapism on its darker days, a sea of delusion, hypochondria and abnormality. Sleep and dreams are also lorded over by this planet.












_*just inserting these two clips because of how Lynchian those quotes sound...*_

One thing neither of those quotes mentioned is it is also associated with deception. And deception and corruption are two things that interest me as well (I'm sure I've brought this up before). The field I'm considering going into is journalism and part of my motivation for wanting to go into that field is the desire to expose those two things.

I didn't take astrology completely seriously like some others would, but I did have it as a hobby for awhile. I might be somewhat incompatible with that kind of scene considering I have a level of skepticism towards anything New Agey... For example, I'm not a fan of when people try to make Ni or whatever other function they choose (but it tends to be Ni) out as this spiritual, extra special thing and if someone was to come to me saying they wanted to be a professional astrologer, I would have my suspicions that what they really mean is, "I want to be a professional scammer." 

Part of that is me being… me. I'm prone to suspicion, but I'm sure a fair amount of those people are decent and don't have intentions like that. 

Used to be into dream analysis in my early teens as well. 

In general, I really don't care about proving if something is true or scientifically sound or accurate or not. I know that kind of thing can be important, but it's not one of my priorities. Partially because it's one of my weaknesses.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I retook it again and now scored ENFJ, but here was my order...Fe > Ne > Ni > Ti > Fi > Se > Si > Te


Take a look at how low that Se is. Both sensing functions are low, both intuitive functions are high.

I might as well drop my result.


----------



## nep2une

Nissa Nissa said:


> (I also have some moral objections to actual sex images but hers aren't like that)


When you say things like this, do you think about how others might react to it? I would assume so since it says you had tried to edit this post to keep from being misinterpreted. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> * *


I associate this whole aesthetic with Ne and Si. But that might just be my own subjective understanding that could very well be wrong. Plus eh... Maybe shouldn't try to seriously type someone over what images they like. I'm sure you agree. I just swear I see patterns, after seeing what images people post and like time and time again.

Going back to the sx thing, I tend to assume if someone doesn't want to get typed as sx-last they can basically just find images of couples or something sensual and romantic and they'll automatically get typed the way they want.



Nissa Nissa said:


> But I hate collages and i hate that I'm talking about them right now and I hate that I've made so many :frustrating: feel like they show my aesthetic but not my personality, regret ever making a collage, keep thinking they'll magically show something they don't


lol as a person with a little 3w4 in me I feel like... What do you mean they show your "aesthetic" but not "personality"? I get what you mean but someone like me, it's like my aesthetic (I somewhat dislike that word but anyway) is more me than anything else. It represents everything I like, everything I want to be... It's like how I feel like me dressed up in my favorite outfit is more like the real me than me sitting around in pajamas.



Nissa Nissa said:


> also not a bureucrat stamp-collector person


I wouldn't think every sp/so, or even the typical sp/so, is a stamp-collector and a bureaucrat.



Nissa Nissa said:


> but it's easier to be a stamp-collector than a firework for sure


*nods*



Nissa Nissa said:


> I don't know how I feel about this totally-different-systems thing though


I don't like it, either. I'd rather everything connect and line up neatly.



Nissa Nissa said:


> If I'm going to be something different in MBTI I might as well be ESFJ or something because I love MBTI Si :fall: and MBTI Ni feels like something that barely exists
> and many people do not see me as a Ne-dom, idk
> I think one of the two, at least


Alright, I'll throw in a vote for ESFJ. Need a couple more of those fluttering around, anyway. Actually I never even thought about if aux Fi seemed right or not. But I definitely never thought for once second anything but Ne and Si, in no particular order, for you.


----------



## Darkbloom

nep2une said:


> I feel like me dressed up in my favorite outfit is more like the real me than me sitting around in pajamas.


There's hardly anything more me than sitting around in pajamas 
Thinking if it's Si-ish but my dad and grandma and other grandma are definitely Si valuing, they never understand how I can have lunch in pajamas, the thing is I kinda associate Si with little rules like 'change into real clothes within hour of waking up', 'make your bed' and such, don't relate to any of that.

(Don't really have a favorite outfit or anything similar I think but feel like I'm constantly trying to find my aesthetic or something but it's not working for some reason, don't like clothes, used to have favorite pieces but that's different and I rarely actually wore them)
edit: there are some things that feel me-ish though, got reminded because I looked at my fuzzy seafoam green sweater, generally think I feel me-ish in blue-ish colors even though I like pink and red aesthetic.
Always wish I could find clothing pieces I loved as a child,at least pictures :frustrating:
Remember 6 or 7 years ago saying my favorite color was light blue and someone said it seemed fitting.
(but I do kinda change my favorite color a lot)


----------



## Dangerose

nep2une said:


> When you say things like this, do you think about how others might react to it? I would assume so since it says you had tried to edit this post to keep from being misinterpreted.


(I edited that post to avoid something completely different being misinterpreted)
What do you mean? 
I was just explaining my personal philosophy on using sexual images because I was explaining myself (as I noted, not sure I'd use them in other collages), I'd be surprised if other people felt judged because I'm obviously a prude, is that what you meant?
my main thing I thought people would react with would be, 'ah, sx-last' which I think would be a mistake (based on that alone) but :/
is there some other negative way people would/should/did react?



> I associate this whole aesthetic with Ne and Si. But that might just be my own subjective understanding that could very well be wrong. Plus eh... Maybe shouldn't try to seriously type someone over what images they like. I'm sure you agree. I just swear I see patterns, after seeing what images people post and like time and time again.


I do too!
And yeah)



> Going back to the sx thing, I tend to assume if someone doesn't want to get typed as sx-last they can basically just find images of couples or something sensual and romantic and they'll automatically get typed the way they want.


True, don't imagine people being that schemey though 
But yeah collages are easy to game, if you want to (another reason I don't like them!)



> lol as a person with a little 3w4 in me I feel like... What do you mean they show your "aesthetic" but not "personality"? I get what you mean but someone like me, it's like my aesthetic (I somewhat dislike that word but anyway) is more me than anything else. It represents everything I like, everything I want to be... It's like how I feel like me dressed up in my favorite outfit is more like the real me than me sitting around in pajamas.


I don't think my real me is me sitting around in pajamas, I'd definitely consider my 'real self' what I'd wear to a ball or something 
and there are some things that feel inexplicably 'me', but I wouldn't say it has much to do with my personality, in that I think I see the world with my own aesthetic filter and some things are more:






( @Remnants hi)

But I don't know how that would connect to the parts of myself that are typed in MBTI or Enneagram or could be in similar situations, more like the key I can hear things in, vs the way I react to the world as a person

Does that make sense?



> I wouldn't think every sp/so, or even the typical sp/so, is a stamp-collector and a bureaucrat.


And I don't think every sx/so is a ~firework~, I specifically chose two things that it's very uncommon or impossible to be so it was a fair comparison, like my actual problem with sx/so is that I don't feel like I have some dazzling endless energy or whatever, but that's also fairly unrealistic, don't relate to the other extremes either, also don't generally relate to the core of what those things are trying to get at, of course I don't or I'd know my instincts

Yeah? was trying to use a shorthand for something that would take paragraphs to explain and wouldn't mean much/was just being silly



> Alright, I'll throw in a vote for ESFJ. Need a couple more of those fluttering around, anyway. Actually I never even thought about if aux Fi seemed right or not. But I definitely never thought for once second anything but Ne and Si, in no particular order, for you.


Thank you! And for all your thoughts)


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> (I edited that post to avoid something completely different being misinterpreted)
> What do you mean?
> I was just explaining my personal philosophy on using sexual images because I was explaining myself (as I noted, not sure I'd use them in other collages), I'd be surprised if other people felt judged because I'm obviously a prude, is that what you meant?
> my main thing I thought people would react with would be, 'ah, sx-last' which I think would be a mistake (based on that alone) but :/
> is there some other negative way people would/should/did react?


My reaction was 'w1-ish'!

(was surprised to see @nep2une mention it, not offensive at all, I know you don't use sexual images)


----------



## Brains

Nissa Nissa said:


> I don't know how I feel about this totally-different-systems thing though
> If I'm going to be something different in MBTI I might as well be ESFJ or something because I love MBTI Si :fall: and MBTI Ni feels like something that barely exists
> and many people do not see me as a Ne-dom, idk
> I think one of the two, at least


:shocked:

Quick, consult a doctor, you seem critically deficient in typology forumite -ness :shocked:

That aside, the Myers-Briggs branches of Jungian typology and Socionics are definitely different systems that construct the model of personality differently and define their functions differently. They hsve shared history so the language is similar but the systems definitely don't match 1-to-1. Just focus on each system as it stands by itself, it's just a lot saner that way.


----------



## nep2une

Nissa Nissa said:


> (I edited that post to avoid something completely different being misinterpreted)
> What do you mean?
> I was just explaining my personal philosophy on using sexual images because I was explaining myself (as I noted, not sure I'd use them in other collages), I'd be surprised if other people felt judged because I'm obviously a prude, is that what you meant?
> my main thing I thought people would react with would be, 'ah, sx-last' which I think would be a mistake (based on that alone) but :/
> is there some other negative way people would/should/did react?


It's just me trying to get some more information to determine Fi vs Fe.



Nissa Nissa said:


> True, don't imagine people being that schemey though
> But yeah collages are easy to game, if you want to (another reason I don't like them!)


I don't know if I'd call it schemey (though schemey is a word that can be used to describe it depending), but I tend to think in that way - assuming those kinds of motivations. Like with some of the socionics questionnaire questions that ask things like 'What is intelligence?' 'What is beauty?'

If you throw a question like that at me, I'm probably going to answer with something like:

'Something that someone wants to possess in order to raise their value in the eyes of others.'

Obviously that isn't all that either thing is, but that's basically the first thing I think.

Or like in the NF forum, there was a thread there asking what freedom means, and my answer was:

"A word I never really think about and usually only hear about when someone's making some kind of joke about America?"



Nissa Nissa said:


> and there are some things that feel inexplicably 'me', but I wouldn't say it has much to do with my personality, in that I think I see the world with my own aesthetic filter and some things are more:


That's a cool song. I can see why you'd say it feels "you".



Nissa Nissa said:


> But I don't know how that would connect to the parts of myself that are typed in MBTI or Enneagram or could be in similar situations, more like the key I can hear things in, vs the way I react to the world as a person
> 
> Does that make sense?


Maybe.



Nissa Nissa said:


> And I don't think every sx/so is a ~firework~, I specifically chose two things that it's very uncommon or impossible to be so it was a fair comparison, like my actual problem with sx/so is that I don't feel like I have some dazzling endless energy or whatever, but that's also fairly unrealistic, don't relate to the other extremes either, also don't generally relate to the core of what those things are trying to get at


That's true. The way they're all described can seem extreme. I think a fair amount of people tend to want to relate to the more "exciting" extreme than the more "boring" extreme. Understandly so. ... Ah, I think I'm doing the thing I mentioned above again. :shocked: :laughing:


----------



## Darkbloom

nep2une said:


> "A word I never really think about and usually only hear about when someone's making some kind of joke about America?"


Feel kinda like this about so many words, literally never hear them irl, sometimes I mention them just to be funny and just be able to use a new word :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> My reaction was 'w1-ish'!
> 
> (was surprised to see <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=466266" target="_blank">nep2une</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> mention it, not offensive at all, I know you don't use sexual images)


glad you weren't offended 
(should I be 1 fix do you think?)



Brains said:


> :shocked:
> 
> Quick, consult a doctor, you seem critically deficient in typology forumite -ness :shocked:


roud:
(it can be infectuous though)



> That aside, the Myers-Briggs branches of Jungian typology and Socionics are definitely different systems that construct the model of personality differently and define their functions differently. They hsve shared history so the language is similar but the systems definitely don't match 1-to-1. Just focus on each system as it stands by itself, it's just a lot saner that way.


Hm, I guess it does make sense if I think of it that way, guess I tend to think of it like MBTI is SocionicsLite or Socionics is the gears behind MBTI, together with getting most (ok all) of my MBTI knowledge from forums so I haven't seen a consistent system...no one seems to really agree about what Fe or Fi or Ni or anything is, so I like Socionics because it's very clear what things are, it has more substance...but it's also very complicated and I'm a bear of very little brain so it's hard :woof: so it's a lot more convenient to blur them  

but it's probably not a bad idea to separate and not try to connect things that are not the same.



nep2une said:


> It's just me trying to get some more information to determine Fi vs Fe.


Oh ok  
I think i usually think about how people will react but I don't think about thinking about it, just part of my thought process, don't think more than anyone else does

Of course I'm often wrong but it's on my mind somewhere



> I don't know if I'd call it schemey (though schemey is a word that can be used to describe it depending), but I tend to think in that way - assuming those kinds of motivations. Like with some of the socionics questionnaire questions that ask things like 'What is intelligence?' 'What is beauty?'
> 
> If you throw a question like that at me, I'm probably going to answer with something like:
> 
> 'Something that someone wants to possess in order to raise their value in the eyes of others.'


That's a cool, slightly scary way of thinking  I imagine that is how aliens would describe human concepts (no insult, it just shows a lot of detached analysis, it's a true definition but it's so much about...the effect? seems quite Ni, I think, Ni often scares me, would you consider it as such?



> Obviously that isn't all that either thing is, but that's basically the first thing I think.
> 
> Or like in the NF forum, there was a thread there asking what freedom means, and my answer was:
> 
> "A word I never really think about and usually only hear about when someone's making some kind of joke about America?"





Vixey said:


> Feel kinda like this about so many words, literally never hear them irl, sometimes I mention them just to be funny and just be able to use a new word :laughing:


Haha)
There are several typology words and concepts that I end up thinking about/talking about way more than I ever have in real life, can't think of examples now 

(don't think so with freedom though, but I think of it in more aesthetic ways generally)

well, I always think of this one line from a song has one line: "Freedom is a dragon child!" and I'm not sure why that specifically stands out to me but yeah something like that
(when i post links no one has to click on them, i just like to post links lol)

* *











(it's not like I've ever had to escape court life  not sure if this song is relatable or not, just like it, and like the dragon thing) 

(from lyricstranslate)

Ludwig² - In Palästen geboren lyrics + English translation

[Sisi]
Born in palaces...

[Ludwig]
Palaces with ears...


With marionettes...

[L]
On gold chains

[Both]
Born in palaces
My head full of dreams

[L]
At home in the clouds


The palaces so small

[L]
Freedom is a dragon child
Climb, my dragon, climb swiftly
To the stars through time
Fly us onwards! Don't fly too far!

[Both]
A dragon you let fly
Seeks his love nest in the clouds
And if heaven gives him time
He searches heaven as a pair...

[L]
My majesty from Vienna


My Lohengrin!

[Both]
To go through life
With you would be great
It would be brilliant!

Born in palaces...
...Full of envy and full of greed...
Oh, I wish myself away
Wish me far away with you

Freedom is a dragon child
Climb, my dragon, climb swiftly
To the stars through time
Fly us onwards! Don't fly too far!

A dragon you let fly
Seeks his love nest in the clouds
And if heaven gives him time
He searches heaven as a pair!








or just:





wouldn't think to associate it with...well, literal freedom 



> That's a cool song. I can see why you'd say it feels "you".


Thanks, I like it (though I wish the little boy was not in the song) guess I mean that it's talking about a sort of aesthetic quality I look for in things, sort-of like:










(~Emily of New Moon)



> That's true. The way they're all described can seem extreme. I think a fair amount of people tend to want to relate to the more "exciting" extreme than the more "boring" extreme. Understandly so. ... Ah, I think I'm doing the thing I mentioned above again. :shocked: :laughing:


Yes...well it sounds better to be a firework than an accountant, though one is a bit more achievable) And...yes)


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> should I be 1 fix do you think?)


Not sure but 2w1 I think?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Any LSEs on here and/or do you know any? What are they like?


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Not sure but 2w1 I think?


everyone was so on-board when I switched to w3 
very confused about my type rn lol, at least 2 seems right but all my functions are not fitting together to make an actual type and :frustrating:


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> everyone was so on-board when I switched to w3
> very confused about my type rn lol, at least 2 seems right but all my functions are not fitting together to make an actual type and :frustrating:


I don't think I was? 
(but don't think I said anything, not because 'didn't wanna say anything', think it seemed fine to explore it in the moment but it doesn't seem right to me)
(also kinda assumed your signature type was like...trying it on for fun typing and what's on your profile as more real,think your profile still says 2w1  )


----------



## Darkbloom

The moment I stopped typing as EIE the whole system stopped making sense to me 
Wonder if that means I'm EIE after all?
Or maybe the system just doesn't make sense?
I mean I could see other types but it's much more complicated and like if I am any other type then nothing is anything like it's described, with EIE there are many things that feel wrong but it's like...idk still makes sense, but maybe just because I'm used to it.


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> Yes, it's something I think about a lot
> Was going to suggest that I could be ESFJ and you could be ESFP, would kinda make sense? but I don't think we're quasi-identicals, identical or look-a-like makes most sense imo, not that I think things should be based on intertype relations, plus I think you're both more Si-ish and more Se-ish than me


Yes could see look-a-like the most I think maybe, quasi-identical doesn't sound right to me
EIE if identical?
(but not sure if that matters  )
(actually should look into relations more when I have time)



> lol yeah I edited because I realized Lee Mack was very handsome as well, Alan Davies is quite good-looking as well and Stephen Fry, I don't think about it as much because he's gay but he's not ugly either, so that was a confusing designation
> I'm always just shocked at how handsome Jimmy Carr is :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, it's a short clip, thanks for watching though))
> 
> 
> Yes, really! Keep waiting for opportunity to use him as an example
> 
> I'm not sure anyone but a 3 can look like this:


I was looking at

















> He seems like he has the ENFJ thing to me, but I could probably see other types too
> 
> I love him :lovekitty:
> 
> Seems more Se-ish and ENFJish than Bono for example, was thinking about it and can't understand actually, why he's supposed to be ENFJ
> but he's so boring to me that :dry:


Yes I agree I think, I mean I know almost nothing about this guy and just a bit more about Bono so 
But Bono still makes no sense to me as ENFJ, this guy I could see even though he looks ESxJ to me or something.
Not in all pictures though, seems to have two main looks.
Think INFJ before ENFJ for Bono if he's Fe and Se valuing.



Nissa Nissa said:


> (Her English is so good, though, like yours, it constantly shocks and frankly enrages me how you aren't native speakers :angry


Thanks! :butterfly: 
(I really think it's getting less good with time, right now it's still ok but I'm starting to get a little concerned)

@Remnants I sometimes think about it, like I understand everything, but it's possible communication is still affected in subtle ways, not sure. Don't think I'm very good at my first language though tbh :laughing:
(I always find it so awkward to write complex sentences in my first language, used to do it much more often so it was easier but now I always question every word even though spelling should not be an issue, but there are these little things I never properly learned in school and now I know even less than I did back then :frustrating: )

Thinking, maybe it's difficult to translate the right 'tone' or something, hard to tell.



> I think what Fair Phantom said was that her Se (and my Se?) seemed like it was valued but lower, like we'd argue too much and not know when to stop, like putting too much pressure on one point? and it might have been partly irkedness but I remember it as a general observation
> 
> (but there might have been something else for just Vixey I forgot)


Yes, and for me it was something about focusing more on Fe and meaning than sensory things without connection to Fe and meaning, back then I thought it was a good point but I think I was exaggerating my Ni/lack of Si and Se a bit (not purposely) 
(still saw my Ni as pretty bad for an ENFJ though)




> Fe-Se used to make so much sense though, almost can't remember why and Alpha seems so weird


No clue, really think Si/Ne makes more sense now 
EDIT: not sure why I said no clue, could still easily see EIE except you seem Ne valuing and Ni devaluing(red so you see it)
Would say either ENFJ for me and ESFJ for you or ENFP and ESFP, makes sense to me I think, but could see ENFJ for both too I guess.



> but INxx seems wrong


Agree.



Nissa Nissa said:


> https://funkymbtifiction.tumblr.com...w-to-deal-with-each-type-a-guidebook-of-sorts
> 
> This article seems pretty good, relate to the ENFP one
> 
> 
> 
> And the Fe-dom ones are unrelatable but remind me of people I know and how annoying it is to talk to them
> 
> Though it is definitely 'nice' Fe which I don't really agree Fe is


Yes don't agree with that idea of Fe


----------



## Darkbloom

Hm think this sounds more like us


> Therefore they attempt to contrast other people's views to their own and to explain their position (To verify concepts): "If it is like that them we shall do this, it is different – we'll do something else"
> 4. "Verification of concepts" - the general (common) phenomenon for subjectivists, it concerns not only the different was of acting/doing, but also concepts, terminology and so on. Subjectivists are in greater degree "adjusted" to the fact that different people have different meanings/understandings for same concepts, words and so on. The perceive the terminology (As well as actions of people) as a part of the subjective concept of different people – an extenuation of personal opinions, occupied positions, personal intention etc.: "So we have agreed that we shall name it this way". In contrast to he objectivist, who receives terminology as "objective", subjectivists understand the differences of terminologies (This concerns even well established terms) and they attempt to contrast them ("Well you say it is like that but I disagree")


Than this


> 4. In contrast to the subjectivists, they are not inclined of "verification of concepts". They assume that the terms, concepts have only one unique interpretation ("correct", "accurate" one) – often they do not think about the fact that the other person may be interpreting them differently within the framework of other concepts. They operate with concepts like "objective reality" like unequivocal facts, in such cases they do not attempt to "verify the concepts": "It refers to this". Thus in those cases they consider that they know a thing correctly, how it "really is" (The view certain pictures of the world as uniquely true): "You say it's like this while in reality is like this".


 @Nissa Nissa 

(think you already know this but I got reminded of it)


Like with @Paradigm , an obvious objectivist/serious, my response to her was very subjectivist-ish I think?


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Yes could see look-a-like the most I think maybe, quasi-identical doesn't sound right to me
> EIE if identical?
> (but not sure if that matters  )
> (actually should look into relations more when I have time)


They're so fun :fall: but I find it hard to imagine they're that accurate since there's so many factors that go into how people get along and I can't imagine a study that could neutralize those...



> View attachment 781857


Oh yeah, extremely 3 expression especially for a child)) 



> Yes I agree I think, I mean I know almost nothing about this guy and just a bit more about Bono so
> But Bono still makes no sense to me as ENFJ, this guy I could see even though he looks ESxJ to me or something.
> Not in all pictures though, seems to have two main looks.
> Think INFJ before ENFJ for Bono if he's Fe and Se valuing.


Could see ESTJ (for Jimmy Carr)
and yeah, but even that doesn't seem great, not sure what I'd say



> Thanks! :butterfly:
> (I really think it's getting less good with time, right now it's still ok but I'm starting to get a little concerned)


supposedly you 'can't forget languages' but I'm constantly forgetting languages, it comes back but it takes soooo long it's probably only 40% better than having never known them in the first place
(sometimes I can understand, but not actually say anything, like I know a word and it's so obvious what the word is but I can't bring it to mind, then I hear it and it's like :dry::dry: like it got buried, of course I don't speak anything very brilliantly in the first place)



> @Remnants I sometimes think about it, like I understand everything, but it's possible *communication is still affected in subtle ways*, not sure. Don't think I'm very good at my first language though tbh :laughing:
> (I always find it so awkward to write complex sentences in my first language, used to do it much more often so it was easier but now I always question every word even though spelling should not be an issue, but there are these little things I never properly learned in school and now I know even less than I did back then :frustrating: )


Yeah, it is possible


> Yes, and for me it was something about focusing more on Fe and meaning than sensory things without connection to Fe and meaning, back then I thought it was a good point but I think I was exaggerating my Ni/lack of Si and Se a bit (not purposely)
> (still saw my Ni as pretty bad for an ENFJ though)


Hm, yeah
Think you obviously have an F filter at least, not sure what to think



> No clue, really think Si/Ne makes more sense now
> EDIT: not sure why I said no clue, could still easily see EIE except you seem Ne valuing and Ni devaluing(red so you see it)


It worked! 
(I agree + I don't understand Ni enough to know if I value it which makes me think it's devalued lol)



> Would say either ENFJ for me and ESFJ for you or ENFP and ESFP, makes sense to me I think, but could see ENFJ for both too I guess.


Yes, that makes most sense I think))



Vixey said:


> Hm think this sounds more like us
> 
> Than this
> 
> @Nissa Nissa
> 
> (think you already know this but I got reminded of it)
> 
> 
> Like with @Paradigm , an obvious objectivist/serious, my response to her was very subjectivist-ish I think?


Agree with all this, also you don't want to know how many times I read this over to try to understand it, Socionics explains itself in very complicated ways :frustrating:

Got there eventually and I agree)


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> Ahh I see - I'm both of those (I distrust myself and doubt myself a lot, but also doubt others a lot). Do you get that?


Hmm maybe. I distrust myself with making decisions, always doubt it if it was the right one afterwards. Not sure if I doubt others so much. in the past i've been the opposite actually, as I become overly reliant on a person. 



> How is it hard to express? Why does it seem hard? I find I struggle to express things too but more because I just dont know how to express them (if I get angry enough I'll just rant,yell, growl, hit objects etc, but can seem to channel the anger in any direction, it's just a big force - I used to have issues with it though as a teenager).
> I find that too! It's good not to feel nothing when you see something bad happening, it makes you likely to act and solve it. I think it's something that the world would benefit from more overall.
> 
> Hahaha thats brilliant, I relate to that a bit too much xD
> (You've made me start compulsively watching these - my epic Friday night)


It's probably hard for me to express due to a lack of assertiveness - something I need to work on
Being able to channel your anger in one direction is probably a good thing though. That's common for teens, even I did things like that when i was angry! mostly I was just really moody as a teenager lol
That's true, it's quite necessary. 

haha glad you like the channel, his videos can be quite entertaining 



> True, I find the 9 descriptions a bit wishy washy and generic (It also seems a lot of people get typed as a 9 when people cant pin them down - "Oh youre pretty nice and calm, type 9 for sure!" - Im not sure why though, as I think 9 is probably just really complicated and so people dont get it maybe? (Myself included)).


True, I think the hardest types to understand so far are 5, 9 and 3.
9 is also confusing for me because I keep overlapping it with SP and Si base 



> Probably a good plan...Oh 7 and 2? That's interesting, what do you think you relate to with them?


I don't relate to 7 much, this was the feedback I got though! unhealthy 1s show unhealthy traits of 7 (and healthy ones 4) so maybe that theory explains the pattern. 
2 was also suggested, but not as a core type, just as a wing/image type. I do relate to type 2 though, especially from timeless' description, that's why I was typed as 1w2 earlier 



> Ahh thanks, thats interesting! I find 3 kind of works but not that much, not enough for core I dont think? (I relate to some of it strongly and other bits not at all).
> Thanks, that's very helpful! Good points!
> I do relate to a both in different ways but also dont quite fit, but maybe the wing or tritype would affect it?


no problem! ah interesting, could do a questionnaire if you have time for it? I'm not sure how the core type works in relation to the wing exactly...I think the core type is the most dominant because it's fear drives you, so maybe look into that more? Then identify traits of another type that could be driven by that core type and it's basic fear. 

I don't understand much about the wings but I think they're called "wings" for a reason, like a core type will relate to both the wings and show traits of both (This does seem true as I can't even decide my wing for type 1) Perhaps the wing is sort of like the aux function in mbti, it's used to serve the dominant/core type. The concept of wings is quite literal in a way, except most people seem to believe one of the wings is more dominant. 

You could also try narrowing down the core type using the triads, which are;

hornevian traid:
withdrawn: 4,5, 9
compliant: 1, 2,6
assertive:3,7,8

harmonic triad:
Positive outlook: 2, 7, 9
Reactive: 4,6,8
Competency: 1, 3,5,

and also the head/heart/body triads! the link explains all of these more. I found it helpful as I noticed some of it correlated with types I was considering.


----------



## ElectricSlime

This is making me go OCD.

@Vixey

What _are_ you sure of ? 

I thought the other day you were sure that you were Fe valuing over Fi, so how come you're considering SEE ? Is Fe PoLR dual material to you ? Are Gamma values relatable ? If not, then cross it off the list.

You also admitted that you were clearly more at ease with Sensing subjects than Intuition ones, I think that makes it very likely that you're a Sensor. Furthermore, we were several to point out a focus and awareness of Si in your conversations, which also points heavily away from Si PoLR. So, you have more awareness and focus on Si than Ni, and don't lean towards abstraction, so what aside from behavior points towards EIE rather than a SF type ?

The thing is, there's no consistent variable across any of your reasonings so far. No certitudes to hold on to, and extensive focus over specifics rather than the general in your behavior. No wonder it's not going anywhere.

@Nissa Nissa 

What exactly is the cause of your confusion and questioning over your type ?

Btw you guys, as Paradigm said, you focus on the silliest things to determine your type. Everyone uses all functions, that's one of the advantages socionics has over JCF imo, in that it explains how each of the functions manifest in a type rather than stick a 4 flavored stack in someone's face and tell him to figure it out. 

Throwing a handfart at someone doesn't suddenly turn you into a Se lead, speaking to a cashier at the store doesn't make you a Fe lead, making a chart on Excel doesn't make you a Te lead, etc , etc. Stop focusing on that stuff and stop analyzing your every actions with typology. And leave out intertype relationships in regards to internet users, it's dubious at best to type yourself according to someone who might be mistyped and/or doesn't behave IRL the way he does on forums. Let things come to you in their natural disposition, clear your head and start by drawing the easiest conclusions to make first. Then you build upwards.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> This is making me go OCD.


:frustrating:

(I know everyone's going to thank this post lol so another :frustrating: in advance)



> The thing is, there's no consistent variable across any of your reasonings so far. No certitudes to hold on to, and extensive focus over specifics rather than the general in your behavior. No wonder it's not going anywhere.


I think the specifics are supposed to reflect the general



> What exactly is the cause of your confusion and questioning over your type ?


-feel like I use Fe>Fi and Ti>Te but of Si-Ne and Ni-Se only my Ne seems good
-no idea how to qualify my Si usage
-everything is confusing, don't understand what many things are and how they're supposed to look
-everyone seems to interpret me differently like many people see ESFJ and seem to think I have little intuition and lots of sensing and other people think I have no sensing and I rarely understand where they're coming from



> Btw you guys, as Paradigm said, you focus on the silliest things to determine your type.



(I do get why it comes across that way, probably true but I don't know how to objectively evaluate my personality, don't have some secret resevoir of actually type-related things, just the things I notice in life, only have the life I actually live for reference



> so what *aside from behavior* points towards EIE rather than a SF type ?


I mean, isn't Socionics supposed to be about behavior?
(And if Gamma values rule out SEE for Vixey...she seems even less Alpha than Gamma, doesn't she?)



> Everyone uses all functions, that's one of the advantages socionics has over JCF imo, in that it explains how each of the functions manifest in a type rather than stick a 4 flavored stack in someone's face and tell him to figure it out.


Of course



> Throwing a handfart at someone doesn't suddenly turn you into a Se lead, speaking to a cashier at the store doesn't make you a Fe lead, making a chart on Excel doesn't make you a Te lead, etc , etc. Stop focusing on that stuff and stop analyzing your every actions with typology


What should I analyze?



> And leave out intertype relationships in regards to internet users, it's dubious at best to type yourself according to someone who might be mistyped and/or doesn't behave IRL the way he does on forums.


Agree in general, didn't really say it to be taken as a heavy piece of analysis, just that Vixey and I often seem to have similar ways of looking at things or similar patterns so it would be strange if we had wildly differently types, obviously we have differences and would probably find more differences irl, easier to agree and relate online I think  and I'm not sure I believe in intertype relations, just that the quasi-identical things sound like 'you'll never understand each other shouldn't even try it will seem like everything the other person does is the work of a monster' then that probably wouldn't apply) 
But I definitely didn't mean it to be taken as ~evidence~, just a thing while weighing different type combinations?



> Let things come to you in their natural disposition


I don't know what this means, it sounds fun 



> clear your head and start by drawing the easiest conclusions to make first. Then you build upwards.


But there are no easy conclusions :frustrating::frustrating::frustrating:

(thanks for post though)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

nep2une said:


> And here I am, popping in with a puff of smoke, to mention I did indeed use to have an interest in astrology…
> 
> (not saying I'm IEI, because what I'm going to label as in socionics is a "?" right now)
> 
> Fairly obvious from my screen name… I like the symbolism of that particular planet and I think it shows the things that fascinate me (but that I don't necessarily engage in myself, or recommend to others) fairly well.
> 
> _*just inserting these two clips because of how Lynchian those quotes sound...*_


That's cool, and yes, think astrology is Ni for the symbolism and Ti once you get into all the angles/aspects, and the way it's more systematic than empirical. I've just started learning about it, but I do recognize the Ni/Ti at play. Lynch is definitely Ni! I would type him as IEI. Still have not seen Mulholland Drive, but I finished Twin Peaks recently (I think Dale is another IEI, based on Lynch too), and have seen Eraserhead, Blue Velvet, and Elephant Man. I always felt like the Elephant Man is the perfect metaphor for a Social 4.

I always like posting this scene to describe what Ni is...








> One thing neither of those quotes mentioned is it is also associated with deception. And deception and corruption are two things that interest me as well (I'm sure I've brought this up before). The field I'm considering going into is journalism and part of my motivation for wanting to go into that field is the desire to expose those two things.
> 
> I didn't take astrology completely seriously like some others would, but I did have it as a hobby for awhile. I might be somewhat incompatible with that kind of scene considering *I have a level of skepticism towards anything New Agey... For example, I'm not a fan of when people try to make Ni or whatever other function they choose (but it tends to be Ni) out as this spiritual, extra special thing and if someone was to come to me saying they wanted to be a professional astrologer, I would have my suspicions that what they really mean is, "I want to be a professional scammer."*


 Yeah, and as you saw from my post you liked on that "Ni" thread, I have the same view. I think New Agey in that sense can be more Ne actually, like when The Secret came out, and it was all the rage on Oprah, I just... I prefer for spirituality to be existential in nature rather than a quick-fix, feel-good solution. Transcendence out of suffering. That's my 4 speaking, though.



nep2une said:


> Take a look at how low that Se is. Both sensing functions are low, both intuitive functions are high.
> 
> I might as well drop my result.
> 
> View attachment 780953


Yeah true, your Se is higher than mine, but I will say your functional stack follows IEI better than mine, in that your Fi is higher (4D) than your Ne, while my Ne was higher than my Fi. I see we both have Si and Te as our weakest functions (I mean, I did say I felt like ISTJ is the complete opposite of me). Hooray! Are you as impractical as me too? :blushed:



Rose for a Heart said:


> You are attempting to share your _self _no matter what the instinct. And like I said to Nissa, you are going to have that SX quality in many people, regardless of where the instinct falls for them, but it's a matter of what predominates.


Yes, but I don't see a difference between "self" and "personal essence", which you said was sx. It merely seems like semantics to me. Different words for the same thing.



Rose for a Heart said:


> By essence I meant more this...wet energy I guess. SX firsts are projecting that energy almost constantly, if that makes sense. They are less afraid to put themselves and their essence into something.* It becomes "personal" very quickly (I guess that's how others perceive it; to me they are simply on the same wavelength).*


Ok, "wet energy", so is that like the "juice" too, as it's often described? As an aside, I always hated how sx is described as looking for the *JUICE*. It sounds like the most unattractive thing to me, but maybe sx-doms like it? I think "charge" (i.e. attraction) makes more sense. 

It's also interesting that Naranjo describes 4 as "wet" too, related to the sense of passion, which again, I think a lot of people do confuse "passion" for something as being sx, when it's really 4.



> It may be said that ennea-type V is a “dry” depression contrary to the “wet” depression of ennea-type IV: just as avarice is resigned, envy is passionate. In this is reflected a sharply differentiated feature: dry avarice is apathetic, wet envy, most intense; if the one is a desert, the other is a marsh. (The French use of envie to mean “desire” underscores the implicit observation that envy is the most passionate of passions.)


I agree with the personal part, but I don't think they're constantly projecting that energy (perhaps more in sx/so), because the one thing about sx I've found is that it's very selective too, like a homing missile. So, I don't know if they're always projecting that energy, or even always interacting with others on a personal level, unless they're really interested in you. I think @*ElectricSlime* talked about this before maybe?



Rose for a Heart said:


> Depends on the quality of the energy. By that I don't mean more or less, but _what kind_. If, in group therapy, they are expected to talk about themselves, it may or may not be SX. And yes I do think when someone is in the SX mode, they are comfortable with baring more. I shouldn't have said "highly intimate," perhaps, *but I was just trying to convey that the energy is very personal and sucks you right in (even when you have only just started talking to the person and you don't know them), compared to those who may not be SX firsts. *


I also wonder how willing sx-doms are with being personal with others? Aren't sx-doms guarded about themselves in a way too, if they've been hurt in the past, for example, or also will only open themselves up to that special someone? I think it depends more on _who _the baring is being done to, since I still don't think baring oneself and being vulnerable in the context of a group is related to the sexual instinct. Think that's still Social, and is an act of vulnerability for a Social person, not that the act of vulnerability is sx. Sexual is more about one-to-one, isn't it? I'm genuinely asking for opinions on this matter. 



Rose for a Heart said:


> As for whether it's social over sexual, the focus of the energy matters, which is hard to tell on an online post.
> 
> Personally, I think collage typing can be faulty, I wouldn't use it as an end-all for what your type is. People may miss the SX energy that they might find be otherwise present in abundance if they engaged with the person. So in person, I find it much easier to tell what their instinct might be. Also how comfortable or uncomfortable they are with _my _SX first-ness.


Yeah, I agree that it's a lot easier to tell in real-life, as would any form of typing another. It's all speculation on here, but do think certain type patterns will emerge from the person even online. With sx, the energy I've experienced is flirty, fiery, or seductive in nature (though, this doesn't have to be a explosive firework flamenco dancing burning comet "energy" either :laughing: Such a ridiculous description. It can be very subtle too), but don't know if it manifests like that in all sx-doms. 



Rose for a Heart said:


> I can't see that, and I don't mean literal nudity. You cannot "merge" with someone without being "naked" (metaphorically, psychologically).


Yes, I know, hence the "naked" in quotes. I still don't think being psychologically vulnerable ("naked") is a prerequisite for merging. I mean, what if you're just merging with that person in your imagination (or, would that no longer be sx)? Though, think of someone like Jay Gatsby (from The Great Gatsby), whose entire purpose for himself is designed in service of being with Daisy, but never actually has a relationship with her, and when he does, it's short-lived. That character feels very sx to me, even though half of his life he's merely spent gazing at the green light on the end of her dock. It still seems sx in a way, even if you're imagining it, because of your focus on "one", but let's say, instead of "merging" you're imagining getting married (a Social construction/recognition) to him/her, then I think we're probably getting more into Social a la...



> He knelt to the ground and pulled out a ring and said
> "Marry me, Juliet, you'll never have to be alone
> I love you and that's all I really know
> I talked to your dad, go pick out a white dress
> It's a love story, baby just say yes"







I mean, I know Taylor is a 2, but that is a Social song, while something like "Closer" by NIN is quintessentially sx (in a dark 4/5 way). I think you can tell the difference between those two expressions, despite being different Enneagrams.



Rose for a Heart said:


> Sex/intimacy goes way beyond the literal act.


Agree, you can have intimacy through mere communication too. Look at any of James Joyce's letters to his wife, but you may have to take a shower afterwards. :laughing: 



> I can't tell if that was a quip again - but no literal nudity does not imply SX. Yeah, I do see psychological nudity as vulnerability. Not sure how that takes away from what SX is though?


Yes, it was a quip, and not meant to be taken seriously. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> I think I know what you mean in general, but I still think this 'baring' has a little more to do with relationship to vulnerability, maybe I would associate it with reactive types in general?
> Like for a 4 their own vulnerability is very precious to them so it makes sense that 'baring' it would be very central, 6 has the vulnerability and defense of vulnerability, 8 has the rejection of vulnerability but it still is a ~theme~, while I don't think it's as much a theme for other core types.


Yes, I think it's related to being 4, but I also really struggle with being vulnerable with others, so "vulnerability" may be sx too. I actually open up only to certain people, don't think that's necessarily sx here and is more 4, but it definitely depends on who I feel understands me, like I am very close to my best friend about almost everything, but my other friends I have not opened up to on that distinct level, even if I consider them friends. It takes me a while to get there with those people too, whereas perhaps sx would "close the distance" a lot sooner.



Nissa Nissa said:


> I'm not sure if I'd think about it like that, I guess it's true but idk
> think again it's kind of reactive type thing, other sx 4s have talked about this before a lot as well (feel weird talking about in disagreey way but not mentioning so I'll leave off the name but yeah) *in general this focus on 'are we wearing clothes' is strange to me, think it has to do with the reactive 'authenticity', it's not that I don't care about authenticity, it's that I don't think about it? *
> 
> 
> in which case it might have to do with sx, but the reaction with reactive types as well, it just doesn't make sense to me that it would be empirically, just sx-focused


In which way is it strange to you? Do you not even think about being clothed in the first place, so there's nothing to "undress" then? :shocked:

I started picking up Pride and Prejudice again the other day, because I'm determined to finish it, and Elizabeth Bennett reminds me of you...? Is that weird, or do you relate to her in any way haha? I feel like she even may be IEE 2w1 too? Not sure, though, but that's what I'm thinking for her type atm. While her mother is pretty ESE 2w3 Social. Think maybe Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Bennett are duals too. Hopefully you don't hate the character and the comparison, but like I would think of you as being more Elizabeth Bennett than Mrs. Bennett haha. 



Vixey said:


> Yes could see look-a-like the most I think maybe, quasi-identical doesn't sound right to me
> EIE if identical?
> (but not sure if that matters  )
> (actually should look into relations more when I have time)
> 
> 
> I was looking at
> View attachment 781833
> 
> View attachment 781857
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I agree I think, I mean I know almost nothing about this guy and just a bit more about Bono so
> But Bono still makes no sense to me as ENFJ, this guy I could see even though he looks ESxJ to me or something.
> Not in all pictures though, seems to have two main looks.
> Think INFJ before ENFJ for Bono if he's Fe and Se valuing.


Yeah, could see Bono being INFJ, not sure about IEI, but he's Fe-valuing for sure. I think I remember Bob Dylan describing him as a "closet philosopher" in his memoir too haha. 

I'm not familiar with Jimmy Carr, but since he's British and was on that talk show, it makes me think of Graham Norton, whose approach to his show feels very Fe-valuing, but probably in a more Alpha way. I'd say he's ESE, and I do love the group interactions between everyone and what comes out of that. James Corden does that too on his Late Show, with multiple guests on at once, and something about it feels off to me when he does it, like he's not Fe-valuing. The atmosphere is so different. Maybe it's also because he always sits in a little, black desk chair that makes him seem so awkward. I never understood why they didn't fix that yet, and it always looks so out of place haha.

If you've never seen it, here's what I'm talking about from random video on YouTube:


* *













"

I think it's a pretty good contrast of a Serious vs Merry atmosphere in the same context. 

BTW, I know everyone types Taylor as ESE, but like, if Graham is ESE then there's a big difference between the two...


----------



## Mr Castelo

@mistakenforstranger

Lynch is one of my favorite movie directors, and I agree that he's definitely Ni lead (and IEI). The way he describes his creative process is very similar to how I think mine operates.






About the Sexual instinct:

I think I can understand what @Rose for a Heart meant with "psychological baring", SX seeks for a deep connection, and usually you can only achieve that in human relationships through emotional vulnerability. Exposing parts of yourself that you usually hide from other people in fear of being hurt in some way. I don't know how that applies to collages, though (and I think collage typing is kinda bullshit).

That being said, I don't think exposing your vulnerabilities = SX, it's more like a step in the process rather than the end goal of SX, and it depends a lot on context (one-on-one being the most desirable). I can also see some Sexual subtypes running _counter_ that tendency (1, 5 and 6 come to mind), although in their case there still is a focus on vulnerability/emotional rawness nonetheless.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> I think the specifics are supposed to reflect the general


To an extent. Typology is really just a bunch of generalizations derived from psychological notions. It doesn't account for temporary environmental adaptation, nurture and other more personal related things beyond type. As such, much better to rely on trends and the general than on the situational and specific.



> -feel like I use Fe>Fi and Ti>Te but of Si-Ne and Ni-Se only my Ne seems good


I'm convinced you're Ne personally. What you said the other day about Ni was clear devaluing from my point of view. 

Why do you think you're Fe over Fi ?



> -no idea how to qualify my Si usage


I thought it was pretty clear to you and everyone here that it sucked  The blood on leg thing is especially telling.

Edit: that last bit came out wrong lol. I meant when you hurt your foot and didn't take care of it.



> -everyone seems to interpret me differently like many people see ESFJ and seem to think I have little intuition and lots of sensing and other people think I have no sensing and I rarely understand where they're coming from


Fuck that shit. People are quick to make assertions without substance and when you expose that they backpedal, which simply goes to show that the substance was in fact lacking.

I think you show lots of Ne, although not very controlled and rather raw. Can't say if it's HA or dominant, but it isn't weird in the slightest for me to perceive you as an ENFP personally (as several other seem to), and if one here doesn't see it, well that person is encouraged to speak up.



> I mean, isn't Socionics supposed to be about behavior?


Yes but not solely. Behaviors can overlap in several types, hence the concept of look alike types, semi identical and business relationship, not that this is set in stone, but the fact that they exist within the theory validates my point all the same.



> (And if Gamma values rule out SEE for Vixey...she seems even less Alpha than Gamma, doesn't she?)


She exhibited Caregiver leanings at some points and she does speak about weird/silly stuff with you at times. I don't think a Gamma would indulge in that in such an extended manner. Alpha certainly doesn't strike me as particularly wrong for her (nor does any quadra to tell the truth, although Gamma values seems odd to me according to her main topics of conversations. Not impossible though).

That being said I didn't say anything really, it's up to her to decide which is what. I don't know her that well.



> What should I analyze?


The recurring patterns of your life, what you like in others, what you dislike in them, your weaknesses, etc.





> Agree in general, didn't really say it to be taken as a heavy piece of analysis, just that Vixey and I often seem to have similar ways of looking at things or similar patterns so it would be strange if we had wildly differently types, obviously we have differences and would probably find more differences irl, easier to agree and relate online I think


You have good chemistry and do vibe similarly in some aspects but don't base your typing off that ^^' Being both Feelers and Si valuing already accounts for a lot. 



> and I'm not sure I believe in intertype relations, just that the quasi-identical things sound like 'you'll never understand each other shouldn't even try it will seem like everything the other person does is the work of a monster' then that probably wouldn't apply)
> But I definitely didn't mean it to be taken as ~evidence~, just a thing while weighing different type combinations?


I think duality and conflictor are the ones one should focus on as they make sense without having to read much into it, the rest can be ignored I'd say, I don't like typology telling me how my relationships should go down.



> I don't know what this means, it sounds fun


It simply means to behave naturally without having typology in mind, let your natural characteristics shine through and let the natural obvious conclusions jump in your face.

People tend to conform themselves to fit a certain type. Several users on this site here (no one on this thread I reassure you) have in particular exhibited chameleon-like behavior across the years depending on their typing. It's especially hilarious to see people become suddenly more agressive and wanna be badass when their type becomes 8 :laughin: 



> But there are no easy conclusions :frustrating::frustrating::frustrating:


Here's one: you're Ne valuing :wink:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

mistakenforstranger said:


> BTW, I know everyone types Taylor as ESE, but like, if Graham is ESE then there's a big difference between the two...


Well, I have seen some EII typings for her, but haven't seen much explanation for it. Would still guess ESE, but she's confusing to me. (On one hand she's kind of dry from what I expect from a type 2 Fe-dom, compared to other examples I've seen. Assuming they were even good examples, since I forgot what they were now >_<)

The "wet"-thing always confuses me btw. Like it does seem like it should be obvious enough but I just don't know what to make of it. Reminds me of how I've seen Sx described as a "wet fire" before, though, and I do get that idea to some extent but... it sounds so gross lol.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Ok, "wet energy", so is that like the "juice" too, as it's often described? As an aside, I always hated how sx is described as looking for the *JUICE*. It sounds like the most unattractive to me, but maybe sx-doms like it? I think "charge" (i.e. attraction) makes more sense.


said it before but yep :laughing:



> I also wonder how willing sx-doms are with being personal with others? Aren't sx-doms guarded about themselves in a way too, if they've been hurt in the past, for example, or also will only open themselves up to that special someone? I think it depends more on _who _the baring is being done to, since I still don't think baring oneself and being vulnerable in the context of a group is related to the sexual instinct. Thin that's still Social, and is an act of vulnerability for a Social person, not that the act of vulnerability is sx. Sexual is more about one-to-one, isn't it? I'm genuinely asking for opinions on this matter.


I personally just think vulnerability is vulnerability and if it's related to an instinct, it's probably sp?



> Yes, I know, hence the "naked" in quotes. I still don't think being psychologically vulnerable ("naked") is a prerequisite for merging. I mean, what if you're just merging with that person in your imagination (or, would that no longer be sx)? Though, think of someone like Jay Gatsby (from The Great Gatsby), who's entire purpose for himself is designed in service of being with Daisy, but never actually has a relationship with her, and when he does, it's short-lived. That character feels very sx to me, even though half of his life he's merely spent gazing at the green light on the end of her dock. It still seems sx in a way, even if you're imagining it, because of your focus on "one", but let's say, instead of "merging" you're imagining getting married (a Social construction/recognition) to him/her, then I think we're probably getting more into Social a la...


This is a good example (even though that book is supposed to be like 100 times less sx than it should be because Daisy represents old money and status and he represents pretty shirts and the green light is green because of money and UGH), wonder if the 'green light' and that kind of 'one' is Ni-ish though?

Reminds me, been low-key obsessed with this song for the past month or so and (since I immediately associated it with a story about traffic lights haha) I only realized today that the 'green light' could be a Great Gatsby reference:






you've mentioned Lorde before, think you typed her as so 4?
this song feels fairly sx to me, both versions of 'green light' as a concept seem fairly sx-ish?



> Yes, I think it's related to being 4, but I also really struggle with being vulnerable with others, so "vulnerability" may be sx too. I actually open up only to certain people, don't think that's necessarily sx here and is more 4, but it definitely depends on who I feel understands me, like I am very close to my best friend about almost everything, but my other friends I have not opened up to on that distinct level, even if I consider them friends. It takes me a while to get there with those people too, whereas perhaps sx would "close the distance" a lot sooner.


This seems sp-ish? plus other factors probably
And that's what I meant, presence of a struggle with vulnerability, thanks for expanding though)



> In which way is it strange to you? Do you not even think about being clothed in the first place, so there's nothing to "undress" then? :shocked:


Yeah I think so...I mean I don't share everything with everyone, there are some things I wouldn't and don't share with certain people, if that's what being clothed is about
but it's like, you don't feel your clothes when they're on, yeah? generally feels more situational that I'm not completely open with someone, even if the situation is 'I hate you'
being psychologically naked or whatever doesn't seem that much of a thing to me but I'm not sure if I know what it means, never think like 'ooh I'm getting naked now', or 'ugh I'm so clothed right now', would never dream of thinking of my relationships of other people in terms of how many clothes we are wearing, everyone's naked under their clothes, think more about distance I think, not sure if that's a distinction or not? 
(I mean there's a difference obviously between hugging someone and hugging them naked so there is a difference obviously, but it's more contextual and I'm not sure how to metaphorize this )



> I started picking up Pride and Prejudice again the other day, because I'm determined to finish it, and Elizabeth Bennett reminds me of you...? Is that weird, or do you relate to her in any way haha? I feel like she even may be IEE 2w1 too? Not sure, though, but that's what I'm thinking for her type atm. While her mother is pretty ESE 2w3 Social. Think maybe Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Bennett are duals too. Hopefully you don't hate the character and the comparison, but like I would think of as being more Elizabeth Bennet than Mrs. Bennett haha.


Wouldn't think of it as a 'determined to finish it' book haha, not your thing?
Hm, interesting, why? (I always had trouble understanding that character, not that she was ~confusing~ but I just couldn't...place her.
But I'm pleased by the comparison roud: remember always hoping people would compare me to Jane Austen heroines)) and thank you for not making it Mrs Bennett
Definitely think Mr and Mrs Bennett are ESFJ and INTP, think about that frequently))

I relate most to Emma Wodehouse from _Emma_, mother frequently points out that I _am_ Emma, not sure of her type, think I usually see so 2 and Fe-dom

Quotes aren't very good but in the context of the book I really feel like I'm reading about my adventures from a past life 



> Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever, and rich, with a comfortable home and happy disposition, seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence; and had lived nearly twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her.
> 
> The real evils indeed of Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little too well of herself; these were the disadvantages which threatened alloy to her many enjoyments. The danger, however, was at present so unperceived, that they did not by any means rank as misfortunes with her.


(none of this actually applies lol but it somehow sounds like me??)

but well:


> “Emma has been meaning to read more ever since she was twelve years old. I have seen a great many lists of her drawingup at various times of books that she meant to read regularly through—and very good lists they were—very well chosen, and very neatly arranged—sometimes alphabetically, and sometimes by some other rule. The list she drew up when only fourteen—I remember thinking it did her judgment so much credit, that I preserved it some time; and I dare say she may have made out a very good list now. But I have done with expecting any course of steady reading from Emma. She will never submit to any thing requiring industry and patience, and a subjection of the fancy to the understanding.”


And even worse things too, she kind-of steamrolls her INFP/ISFJ friend trying to improve her and such which I did with my INFP friend :frustrating: and there's this too, always feel personally smited and humbled by this attack even though I'm very nice now:



> “It was badly done, indeed! You, whom she had known from an infant, whom she had seen grow up from a period when her notice was an honour, to have you now, in thoughtless spirits, and the pride of the moment, laugh at her, humble her–and before her niece, too–and before others, many of whom (certainly some,) would be entirely guided by your treatment of her.–This is not pleasant to you, Emma–and it is very far from pleasant to me; but I must, I will,–I will tell you truths while I can.”


sorry for digression, just yeah)



> Yeah, could see Bono being INFJ, but he's Fe-valuing for sure. I think I remember Bob Dylan describing him as a "closet philosopher" in his memoir too haha.


Hm, having only briefest sketches of his personality INFJ seems ok, Alpha would also seem odd I think



> I'm not familiar with Jimmy Carr, but since he's British and was on that talk show, it makes me think of Graham Norton, whose approach to his show feels very Fe-valuing, but probably in a more Alpha way. I'd say he's ESE, and I do love the group interactions between everyone and what comes out of that. James Corden does that too on his Late Show, with multiple guests on at once, and something about it feels off to me when he does it, like he's not Fe-valuing. The atmosphere is so different. Maybe it's also because he always sits in a little, black desk chair that makes him seem so awkward. I never understood why they didn't fix that yet, and it always looks so out of place haha.


Don't watch these shows often, for some reason they both annoy me (I love Jimmy Fallon but I get irrationally annoyed with a lot of other talk shows)
But I agree, Graham Norton seems ESFJ to me? And he's a lot more natural, think he causes more natural-ish conversations and people seem like they're having fun
James Corden comes across a bit awkward, also sincere which is nice, he forces me to root for him. wouldn't have thought about it but yeah the desk thing does seem uncomfortable



> "


(A lot of people in the comments saying that she didn't get his joke, think it's obvious she did, think she's ISFJ anyways)






Jimmy Carr idk, he definitely has a schtick, tells a lot of offensive jokes and lots of heckle interactions like the above ^

strikes me as ENFJ because I think it's a good example of Fe? and his movements are so controlled, like he's always controlling the emotional energy/pushing for a reaction but in a very...collected way
And he comes across rude but not really cruel, would consider ESTJ or even ENTJ but I feel like he's too...nice somehow, which is kinda a stupid word to use for him, comes across to me role Te + image of vaguely sociopathic persona + some 3ish...nihilism? but it's softened in the right places, it's always striking for maximum ethical/emotive effect?

And comes across very 3 to me, like he has this very distinctive laugh which is obviously not his genuine laugh, he didn't used to have it for example, but he's ingratiated it into his performances and persona to be very distinctive, I find it enjoyable, seems very 3ish to me
this is very funny :laughing:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Seconding that Lynch is Ni as fuck. Mulholland Drive especially lol. Elephant Man was pretty direct a movie but even then it still kept oneiric visuals that to me spoke of Ni, although I guess Socionics Si might do the same thing.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I agree with the personal part, but I don't think they're constantly projecting that energy (perhaps more in sx/so), because the one thing about sx I've found is that it's very selective too, like a homing missile. So, I don't know if they're always projecting that energy, or even always interacting with others on a personal level, unless they're really interested in you. I think @*ElectricSlime* talked about this before maybe?


Well in my case it's true but I'm a picky person in general lol, with elitistic tendencies about what I look for.

But I have recently gotten more aware of the way my energy seems to be projected, the way my presence stands out and seems to reach more widely than I thought. More especially when I'm not in a sullen and self turned mood. It's like I talk to someone about something that isn't particularly open enough a topic for anyone else to join in, yet it's like several side characters in the surrounding feel reached enough to drop whatever they're doing and be receptive to it. My sister often talked to me about those sort of instances where in the school bus I'd talk about whatever in the back and half of the people up to the front were actually eavesdropping and paying attention, and the way the intensity of my areas at the cafeteria would totally eclipse the surroundings and catch attention when excited (by attention I mean interest of course). I have also mentioned my cult leader ish tendencies on here.

It's weird actually, how I was just talking to a friend at the bus stop yesterday and the girl and the guy sitting ont the benches to the side were literally staring at me talking like I was giving a lecture lmao. I had some pretty intense eye contacts with the girl too... But anyway, it's the kind of happenings that aren't rare for me, except at my job because the 30+ women there simply aren't...receptive to my being I guess...

I think it's important to precise that most people either love me or hate me, the total being rather split lol. It's not really an admiration thing (at least I doubt so) so much as marking the environment with my personal touch and catching attention. My merging tendencies are still quite specific and deliberate but apparently I seem to impregnate the environment with my seed unconsciously. Maybe that's the energy thing. I did mention something very similar in my What's My Type thread back then, so I know it's not a momentary delusion at least 

But then again I'm typing at Sx/So for now, though I'm still not quite sure about the fit... Aaaaand I'm gonna stop bragging now :smug:

Edit: Just wanna add that I don't think a Sx/So will necessarily experience the above, as like we once discussed Sx/So can be huge losers, but I think the way their energy and neuroses are wired is towards potentially reaching that kind of effect at least. A 5 Sx/So will probably find it in intellectual spheres and a 9 will do it less assertively. But nonetheless, they WILL want to pump their intensity seed in their environment.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Btw isn't this quintessential Sx/Sp ?: 




I also thought about this for SO/SX:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> To an extent. Typology is really just a bunch of generalizations derived from psychological notions. It doesn't account for temporary environmental adaptation, nurture and other more personal related things beyond type. As such, much better to rely on trends and the general than on the situational and specific.


(very tired but can't sleep, sorry if my thoughts don't make sense)

True, of course...I think usually when I bring up a specific situation it's because I think it's an example of a general trend, hard to see the full picture and I feel like I'm making shit up to say 'I'm a very x person always' - I mean it often sounds like posing when people say it on here
But yes, agree



> I'm convinced you're Ne personally. What you said the other day about Ni was clear devaluing from my point of view.


I would tend to agree, it's just...think you meant the thing about Ni making life seem really short, it's just...it's true? I can't understand why people would choose one thing that might happen in ten years that they think will make them happy or something now, in a way it seems like bad Ni or understanding of time, if we were immortal than sure, play the long game, but since we're not immortal what matters is making our time as close to immortality, and waiting to live until you have something is just digging your grave early in my estimation. I want to live roundly, not like a spire, you climb and climb and climb and then oh you're at the top it's a nice view, but all the other things you could have seen while you were busy climbing...I want to live so that every day is a little eternity. 

In general, I tend to focus on gaining the present moment, not on gaining the future...it's because I think and I decided that it's the best way to live. Not sure if it's really typology, perhaps just me being clever 

It is often a strain though, in MBTI terms I think I'd say I was straining for Se, though I know it's not really that in Socionics. I can be fussy to try to get a moment 'just right' but that's not the right attitude, or...not sure how to explain, would generally like to transcend time 



> Why do you think you're Fe over Fi ?


Talked about it already a bit, _for example_ at work lately I've been noticing how difficult it is not to get what I'd consider Fe reactions out of people, and I really really try

but it's not just at work here, it's always in my life, I'm looking for reactions from people, push for reactions from people, I'm uncomfortable when people don't tell me what they're thinking, always in my life I'm focused on emotional atmosphere>anything else, the reaction thing stands out to me because I feel like I'm drowning or something when I'm in a room and I'm putting out emotional threads or something and no one pulls on them, which is very common

feel more merry than serious and subjectivist than objectivist, feel like I'm focused on moods, and tone, tend to focus on emotional tone and such rather than personal integrity, I think I have my personal integrity and all that and I don't compromise it a lot, feel more dynamic than static, etc



> I thought it was pretty clear to you and everyone here that it sucked  The blood on leg thing is especially telling.
> 
> Edit: that last bit came out wrong lol. I meant when you hurt your foot and didn't take care of it.


to be fair I couldn't take care of it, was walking around the city, also had not been thinking about it))
It's true, I guess my concern is that I sorta glamourize lack of Si, so I'm not sure if I really lack it or if it's so ingrained in me to be a person who lacks it (not in terms of Si of course but as a child I just liked to see myself as above such things and always liked hearing things about myself like 'she's never cold, she doesn't care if she's comfortable or not', though I do think I have genuine lack of focus on it as well? but I feel like I'm complimenting myself to give myself low Si XD)



> Fuck that shit. People are quick to make assertions without substance and when you expose that they backpedal, which simply goes to show that the substance was in fact lacking.
> 
> I think you show lots of Ne, although not very controlled and rather raw. Can't say if it's HA or dominant, but it isn't weird in the slightest for me to perceive you as an ENFP personally (as several other seem to), and if one here doesn't see it, well that person is encouraged to speak up.


ok, thanks)



> Yes but not solely. Behaviors can overlap in several types, hence the concept of look alike types, semi identical and business relationship, not that this is set in stone, but the fact that they exist within the theory validates my point all the same.


True, all right



> She exhibited Caregiver leanings at some points and she does speak about weird/silly stuff with you at times. I don't think a Gamma would indulge in that in such an extended manner. Alpha certainly doesn't strike me as particularly wrong for her (nor does any quadra to tell the truth, although Gamma values seems odd to me according to her main topics of conversations. Not impossible though).


Hm, I guess, not very Ayn Rand-esque
But hm, idk, not sure what to say and obviously can't speak on her behalf, interesting thoughts though

(Caregiver thing reminded me, don't kill me I just think it's funny and want to tell this story, always assumed I could make people love me by giving them food, always endeavoured to do so, my friend and I used to bake things and then make sure there was a lot of flour on our clothes and go walking as a brilliant seduction technique as we took 'way to man's heart is through his stomach' extremely literally and assumed everyone would make the correct assumptions a. that is flour b. flour - aha they can cook! c. I must woo her at once)

(Don't think that's genuinely Caregiver to be clear, just extreme obedience to a popular aphorism and general disconnection from reality :laughing



> The recurring patterns of your life, what you like in others, what you dislike in them, your weaknesses, etc.


That's very hard to observe without specific examples :sad:

Just for fun as quickly as possible because you can't give me a list without me wanting to do it, I know it was rhetorical

Recurring patterns of my life

Fe-ish, just always focused on emotional reactions and wanting more from people
Often work very hard to be stable and then self-destruct, phoenix-like, idk, often do a lot of things, it's very difficult

What you like in others

I like a lot of things in others, try to find the valuable things about everyone, valuable sounds creepy but
Like people who are genuine and enthusiastic, don't fuck around with how things should be but enjoy things as they are, in general like people who don't intimidate me, that's the main thing I think about if I think about people 

What you dislike in others

Shallowness/bubbliness, attitude of universal criticism (I'm thinking of people who have one specific idea of how everything should be and mock everything that doesn't fit it), complacency annoys me

Weaknesses

All of them, I'm literally terrible at everything so it doesn't work lol, I'm socially awkward and impractical and I'm bad at organization and and consistency and these are just the competence-based weaknesses and not all of them



> You have good chemistry and do vibe similarly in some aspects but don't base your typing off that ^^' Being both Feelers and Si valuing already accounts for a lot.
> 
> I think duality and conflictor are the ones one should focus on as they make sense without having to read much into it, the rest can be ignored I'd say, I don't like typology telling me how my relationships should go down.


I gave like fifty disclaimers; I was just throwing an idea out, never meant it very strongly))
(yes, probably Ne)



> It simply means to behave naturally without having typology in mind, let your natural characteristics shine through and let the natural obvious conclusions jump in your face.


That's what I try to do, it's why I like to think about my childhood and try to identify moments in my life
Don't tend to think about typology as I'm going about my daily life except in spare moments or if reminded, don't think I generally act in a type-influenced manner



> People tend to conform themselves to fit a certain type. Several users on this site here (no one on this thread I reassure you) have in particular exhibited chameleon-like behavior across the years depending on their typing. It's especially hilarious to see people become suddenly more agressive and wanna be badass when their type becomes 8 :laughin:


Probably true, and despite what I said above I can be victim to it, don't think I really change my behavior but I might look at things or phrase things a little differently depending on what type is on my mind; work hard to fight against that though))



> Here's one: you're Ne valuing :wink:


Well, thanks)
(I agree it's better)



Remnants said:


> Well, I have seen some EII typings for her, but haven't seen much explanation for it. Would still guess ESE, but she's confusing to me. (On one hand she's kind of dry from what I expect from a type 2 Fe-dom, compared to other examples I've seen. Assuming they were even good examples, since I forgot what they were now >_<)
> 
> The "wet"-thing always confuses me btw. Like it does seem like it should be obvious enough but I just don't know what to make of it. Reminds me of how I've seen Sx described as a "wet fire" before, though, and I do get that idea to some extent but... it sounds so gross lol.


She seems SEI to me
I don't know what to make of it either, always ends up sounding  to me
Besides...the obvious, always makes me think of putting a hand down a drain to get out some food that has gathered there, doubt that's the image one's meant to have come to mind unless it is (because it's untidy?)

always think of myself as very 'dry' person but in different way, say this like every time it comes up so I apologize, my soul is just a desert 

which to me a desert is a lot sexier than a river or something, desert has sun scorching the top of the sand and it has implication of desperation and 'what makes a desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well' and all that, just general sexier vibe






but I am fully aware this is NOT what is meant

Just don't actually know what is meant


----------



## d e c a d e n t

ElectricSlime said:


> Btw isn't this quintessential Sx/Sp ?:


Lol this song brings back some embarrassing memories. 

Hm, energy. Don't usually focus on what energy I "put out there" but lately I've been thinking about it more, and my energy seems so... weird. 

@*Nissa Nissa* 
Stuff you're saying about Ni reminded me of this:




(My SO said the girl sounds Ni-devaluing too)
Although that's not really what you're talking about. Well.

Edit: And SEI for Taylor Swift, that makes sense. Now I don't know why I didn't consider that before.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> apparently I seem to impregnate the environment with my seed unconsciously.


I think it's completely reasonable and good sx description and way to say it I just always think about this scene when I hear this phrase:





 @Remnants


Remnants said:


> Hm, energy. Don't usually focus on what energy I "put out there" but lately I've been thinking about it more, and my energy seems so... weird.


Yeah, I don't think I plant my seed anywhere or 'put out' any energy anywhere, don't think I make much of an impression tbh or...I confuse people more like, I'm a distinctive person but not in a way that people know what to do with it so it's not like...anything, really
I'm always extremely focused on not being a weirdo

also was going to add that Rudolf the musical in general feels very Delta?? like the music and such, but Taafe (the master of the strings) seems very Gamma
But I haven't actually like..listened to everything in order



> @*Nissa Nissa*
> Stuff you're saying about Ni reminded me of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (My SO said the girl sounds Ni-devaluing too)
> Although that's not really what you're talking about. Well.


:lovekitty:
(He seems...ENTJ? and she ESFJ or something?)

too tired to understand the connection but thank you for reminding me of this song :fall:


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Ah I guess I will just have to be a bit more direct...which I wasn't that comfortable with. 

The sexual instinct is called that because it's _sexual_. All the vulnerability I mentioned operates in a way that is sexual - and I don't mean necessarily overtly. It can be very, very subtle. Honestly I am only just beginning to notice this, but I find it quite accurate from what I have seen. And by sexual I don't mean literally aroused, it could be subtly sensual, evocative etc. etc. You get the idea. That's what I meant by the "nakedness" or the vulnerability. And it also depends on how sexuality is experienced by the person, because for me, for example, it's very tied in with my emotions. And it depends on how comfortable the person feels about their attractiveness in a given situation.


----------



## Dangerose

I guess I don't associate vulnerability with sex really, maybe because as like unmarried Catholic person never had reason to think of it that way i.e. sex will be with husband -> vulnerability not relevant sorta?

or I mean may be naiveté


----------



## Paradigm

@Nissa Nissa

I would help you more but you just... you talk yourself into circles. Constantly. Your posts are rambling messes and it's hard to get anything from them because they contain little content useful for typing while having huge word counts. I get the impression you use this thread as a sort of mind dump in the hopes that someone will finally give you the magic combination that miraculously "feels right." And absolutely no one here can do that because the validation you seem to seek can only - as corny as this sounds - come from within. This isn't some sort of psychological padlock that will spring open once you stumble on the combination, it's just mundane self-reflection. Emphasis on the self.

And to be frank, I'm not sure how to help because my conclusion hasn't changed much: I still think you're some combination of 2w3-6w7-9w8, and probably SO/SX. I can't even fathom what you're trying to accomplish typing at SP-first 'cause it's literally the opposite of what you present to us, which makes me really confused where to even start... I'm not sure you could rationalize much more to me that you haven't tried to before. 
I think ESFJ is a decent consideration because of the rambling you do - on the one hand, I could see an argument to be made for weaker Ne, but on the other I've seen plenty of 6w7s who don't value Ne ramble in near the exact same manner (myself included). I guess, regarding that, I would suggest simplifying the question, pare down and ask yourself if you lead with a J or a P function: do you judge first, or do you perceive first?

I've debated posting this because, well, I'm not known for my tactful interactions. But you seem to be flailing about more than usual, so here's another perception you can add to your pile. Just, don't over-complicate things and stop dumping everything into typology, you're confusing everything and everyone when you do that.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Remnants said:


> Well, I have seen some EII typings for her, but haven't seen much explanation for it. Would still guess ESE, but she's confusing to me. (On one hand she's kind of dry from what I expect from a type 2 Fe-dom, compared to other examples I've seen. Assuming they were even good examples, since I forgot what they were now >_<)
> 
> The "wet"-thing always confuses me btw. Like it does seem like it should be obvious enough but I just don't know what to make of it. Reminds me of how I've seen Sx described as a "wet fire" before, though, and I do get that idea to some extent but... it sounds so gross lol.


I think this the only place I've seen that typing, but I have a hard time seeing Taylor as not being Fe-valuing, and more importantly, Fe-Ignoring, and then her recent album and visuals feel more Beta with like the revenge narratives and such, but then not really anything like Beta either.

http://**************.blogspot.com/2017/01/taylor-swift-eii-personality-type.html

She is confusing, I agree. I don't know if she's SEI, like I think Carrie Underwood is more that, being from the same genre. Though, probably shouldn't make this into a Taylor Swift typing thread. There's already 100 pages of that! :crazy: Which speaks to how much no one can figure out her type haha. I think I settled on EIE a while back, though.:Smilies1:



Nissa Nissa said:


> said it before but yep :laughing:


Yeah, I said it before too, but I just have to repeat myself how much I hate it.



Nissa Nissa said:


> I personally just think vulnerability is vulnerability and if it's related to an instinct, it's probably sp?


Agree about vulnerability as being just that, and think @*Mr Castelo* did a nice job explaining it too.



Nissa Nissa said:


> This is a good example (even though that book is supposed to be like 100 times less sx than it should be because Daisy represents old money and status and he represents pretty shirts and the green light is green because of money and UGH), wonder if the 'green light' and that kind of 'one' is Ni-ish though?


Yeah, but do think that character is sx, while Daisy is more so, and Nick is sp. Golden Trio. I don't know if you saw the movie of it recently, but think Baz Luhrmann's take on it was sx/so. Whereas the Robert Redford one is more sx-last. All Baz's movies seem sx/so. Also, was thinking how his movie of Romeo and Juliet may be one of the most Beta things ever. I want to rewatch it, but always forget to. 


* *












I think it's definitely Ni too. It's that waiting for a future you speak of that you don't understand below. I'm sure there's a quote that is Ni about it that I could find, but don't feel like looking right now. He's either EIE or IEI, I think. Always hated the "beautiful shirts" scene too. It does feel sx/sp for Gatsby, though, like he thinks he's a catch to Daisy through his sp-instinct, property, fortune, and shirts...:bored: While he doesn't participate in the parties he puts on either, being Social-last.



> Reminds me, been low-key obsessed with this song for the past month or so and (since I immediately associated it with a story about traffic lights haha) I only realized today that the 'green light' could be a Great Gatsby reference:
> 
> you've mentioned Lorde before, think you typed her as so 4?
> this song feels fairly sx to me, both versions of 'green light' as a concept seem fairly sx-ish?


Yes, Lorde is very good. One of the few current artists I can listen to! I would say she's so/sx 4, definitely 4, and I see so and sx themes. I think her first album was very Social (Royals, Team, Tennis Court, Glory and Gore), but Melodrama is more sx; though, I wouldn't say sx-dom, but it focuses on sx more than Pure Heroine did. And yes, I thought that might be a reference to Gatsby too.



Nissa Nissa said:


> Yeah I think so...I mean I don't share everything with everyone, there are some things I wouldn't and don't share with certain people, if that's what being clothed is about
> but it's like, you don't feel your clothes when they're on, yeah? generally feels more situational that I'm not completely open with someone, even if the situation is 'I hate you'
> being psychologically naked or whatever doesn't seem that much of a thing to me but I'm not sure if I know what it means, never think like 'ooh I'm getting naked now', or 'ugh I'm so clothed right now', would never dream of thinking of my relationships of other people in terms of how many clothes we are wearing, everyone's naked under their clothes, think more about distance I think, not sure if that's a distinction or not?
> (I mean there's a difference obviously between hugging someone and hugging them naked so there is a difference obviously, but it's more contextual and I'm not sure how to metaphorize this )


I tend to think of myself as usually fully-clothed, and I "undress" myself over time to the person I want to, but I don't really think of it in those terms either. Just to go along with the metaphor, I would say I'm more clothed than "naked", but I cringe at writing that! 

Haha, you made me think of this, but horrible song:


* *












I don't know, just focusing on nakedness/clothes and how she sings about it feels so _unromantic_ to me. The Jeff Buckley song I posted before is more my style. I mean, I definitely think core type is far more important than instinct, since JB is a 4, and also it is just a better song.

The "distance" thing may be related to Fi, since Fi (in Socionics) is usually about judging the distance between yourself in your relationships, and why it's sometimes termed Relation Ethics, but can see how that's confused with sx too. 



> Wouldn't think of it as a 'determined to finish it' book haha, not your thing?


Haha, no it most certainly is not. I was looking on 16types forum, and I'm not the only one. :laughing:

Same person here:



> what an awful book this was. i will never forgive my english teacher last year for making me read it.





> DIE JANE AUSTEN DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE
> 
> 
> SOMEBODY GO BACK IN TIME AND KILL HER BEFORE SHE EVER WROTE THIS BOOK





> Hm, interesting, why? (I always had trouble understanding that character, not that she was ~confusing~ but I just couldn't...place her.
> But I'm pleased by the comparison roud: remember always hoping people would compare me to Jane Austen heroines)) and thank you for not making it Mrs Bennett


It's hard to say why, but it's just a "vibe", but I guess I would say she's free-spirited, strong-willed, and morally-inclined. Sorry, not much help, but like I know you were thinking if you're ESE or IEE, and I see Mrs. Bennett being ESE, and don't see you as that. And yes, Mrs. Bennet is SO annoying. I would never wish her upon anyone haha. She's basically the worst of Fe. It's funny also how if Darcy is ILI and she's ESE, then they're Conflictors and she has such a low opinion of him. She's always like, "I've never met such a horrible man!!" 



> Definitely think Mr and Mrs Bennett are ESFJ and INTP, think about that frequently))


Yeah! Someone wrote this 16types and I love it, especially Mrs. Bennett. (Though, I don't think Jane is Ni-Fe, she's Si-Fe).

Pride & Prejudice - Page 3



> _Pride and Prejudice in snippets... Starring Elizabeth (as FiNe), Jane (as NiFe), Mr. Darcy (I have no idea), Mr. Bingly (as FeSi), Mr. Wickham (as "the fiend"), Mr. Bennett (as TiNe), and Mrs. Bennett (as Fe!).
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Mr. Darcy is so haughty. He offends my
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . More than one lady was wanting for a partner and yet he refused to dance because he's so snobby, aristocratic, and arrogant that he believes himself to be beyond human decency. Insufferable man. I've also overheard him insulting those I hold dear on numerous occasions. I vow I shall never dance with him and wouldn't marry him if he were the last man on Earth!
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> MR. WICKHAM
> Here's some
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for you, Elizabeth. Allow me to recount all of my experiences with Mr. Darcy and elicit your sympathies through my careful fiendish manipulations. It's hard to find the words to express just how unfairly I have been abused by that horror of a human being. Mr. Darcy essentially robbed me of my fortune and left me high and dry.
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Oh dear god. I knew he was a horrible man but after receiving this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from you, Mr. Wickham, I daresay he's even more terrible than I imagined.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Oh Jane, Mr. Wickham gave me this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earlier regarding Mr. Darcy, and it is most unsettling.
> 
> JANE
> Well, Lizzy, I don't fully trust Te. Should we be so eager to accept Mr. Wickham's version of events?
> 
> ELIZABETH
> I knew Mr. Darcy was an arrogant bastard the moment I laid eyes on him. In the same way, I knew Mr. Wickham to be a noble and honorable man the moment I laid eyes on him. My FiNe was very clear on both occasions.
> 
> JANE
> But Lizzy, my NiFe renders me incapable of making any solid judgments about anyone or anything!
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Oh Jane, you're such a dear.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> MR. BINGLY
> FeSi, FeSi, FeSi, FeSi, FeSi...
> 
> JANE
> Ni, Ni, Ni, Ni, Ni...
> 
> MR. DARCY
> I'm really "good" at telling how people feel and possess supreme confidence in all of my abilities even those that I actually suck at (such as determining people's true feelings and understanding human relationships). So... I just don't think Jane really cares for Bingly. She appears too cold and distant. And the Bennetts have such unfortunate connections. Then there's Mrs. Bennett... she's like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all day long.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> MR. DARCY
> It's all a ruse, Bingly. Trust my unerring judgment. Jane doesn't care for you and her mother just wants to use you to further the family's social position.
> 
> MR. BINGLY
> Oh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> JANE
> Lizzy, everything's changing. Mr. Bingly's affections are waning away. And when I went to London investigating, the happenings there informed my Ni that I'll never see Mr. Bingly again. I shall endeavor to mope around for the rest of my life!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Oh Jane!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ! I know Mr. Bingly is in love with you, and I saw the potential for the two of you to live happily ever after as though it had already happened. Something's wrong with this picture, it cannot be.
> 
> JANE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ! Oh I've never been certain of Mr. Bingly's feelings towards me. Don't you know his feelings for me as I perceive them are dynamic rather than static? It's all a thick Ni fog. Please Lizzy, give me some Ti or perhaps some Se.
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Ti? Se???? What are those?????! I'm afraid, Jane, all I can give you is more of my FiNe. You have my deepest sisterly sympathies.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> MR. DARCY
> I'm in love with you, Elizabeth, despite my better judgment. Your family sucks, and as you know, my good opinion once lost is lost forever.
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Stop offending my
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ! Here's all the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Wickham gave me about you! And my FiNe told me early on what sort of person you are! And, not to mention, you could not have offended my Fi any more than you did when you removed every possible chance for my sister's future happiness by separating her from Mr. Bingly. There is no one on Earth I hate and feel more wronged by than you!
> 
> MR. DARCY
> Oh yeah, well here's my
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on the Wickham matter! Why are you so fond of espousing opinions that are not your own?
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Oh dear! Mr. Wickham gave me the wrong Te!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> ELIZABETH
> I got some new Te to replace the old Te regarding Mr. Darcy and Mr. Wickham, and this has set my FiNe straight. It appears we were deceived about the character of Mr. Wickham all along!
> 
> JANE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ! Oh Lizzy, it's not your fault!
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Father, I want to marry Mr. Darcy.
> 
> MR. BENNETT
> This is confusing my Ti. Where's your Fe darling?
> 
> ELIZABETH
> Fi, Father. I'm fond of Mr. Darcy. What is this Ti anyway????
> 
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> MRS. BENNETT
> Fe! Fe! Fe! Fe!!!!!
> 
> MR. DARCY
> Oh god._


:laughing: 

Yeah, that's basically the whole book. :bored:



> I relate most to Emma Wodehouse from _Emma_, mother frequently points out that I _am_ Emma, not sure of her type, think I usually see so 2 and Fe-dom
> 
> Quotes aren't very good but in the context of the book I really feel like I'm reading about my adventures from a past life
> 
> 
> 
> (none of this actually applies lol but it somehow sounds like me??)
> 
> but well:
> 
> 
> And even worse things too, she kind-of steamrolls her INFP/ISFJ friend trying to improve her and such which I did with my INFP friend and there's this too, always feel personally smited and humbled by this attack even though I'm very nice now:
> 
> sorry for digression, just yeah)


Interesting, and yeah, I see the 2-ish pride in those quotes too.



> But I agree, Graham Norton seems ESFJ to me? And he's a lot more natural, think he causes more natural-ish conversations and people seem like they're having fun
> James Corden comes across a bit awkward, also sincere which is nice, he forces me to root for him. wouldn't have thought about it but yeah the desk thing does seem uncomfortable


Yeah, that's basically what I mean, Graham is like ramping up the emotional energy, and wants everyone to have fun and participate. It's a lot more cohesive energy, and think Fe wants to be that way, especially in groups. James is more one-on-one with each guest, having their own turn speaking, and also talking about his personal relationships/experiences (Fi-valuing) with his wife in between, which would be a bit buzzkill on Graham's show. You can even tell Tom Hanks is more Fe-valuing too. I'll say James is IEE.

So, I think it's a Delta vs Alpha too:



> Fe blocked with Si
> *Alpha types tend to enjoy participating in groups where there is free exchange of positive emotional expression in an atmosphere pleasing to the senses.*
> *Alpha types are inclined to discuss stories told in detail and according to the sequence in which events happened, rather than "jump to the point" quickly. *
> Alpha types are inclined to show affection for others in the form of small practical services or gifts.
> Alpha types tend to feel energized in the positive atmosphere of special events, such as public holidays, parties and special celebrations.





> *Inclination for comfortable and pleasant group atmosphere, in the emotional, sensorial, and intellectual aspects. An ideal Alpha group situation is the exchange of light-hearted jokes while discussing imaginative ideas, movies, or sometimes sports, all while enjoying pleasant food and drink.* *Narrating personal experiences usually takes the form of telling a joke; funny personal experiences are preferred over "serious" ones. The exchange of sober concrete details are avoided. If the group is playing a game together, the fun and jokes that go along with it are at least as important as the game itself. They avoid generating "heavy" moments; any dramatic expressions are limited in time, most often in service of a joke.* Alphas are also perhaps the most likely types to participate in group use of mind-altering substances.





> Ne blocked with Fi
> *Delta types love to share personal experience mixed with their own sentiments regarding their experiences, but all in an insightful and non-dramatic manner.*
> Delta types like to talk about new beginnings, opportunities for personal growth, and their plans and prospects for the future.





> Groups made up of primarily Delta types tend to be focused on working on projects, enjoying physical recreation, or finding out interesting things about each other. Laughter is usually subdued and brief; instead, people smile a lot and try to be witty and welcoming. Groups need to be focused on some specific productive activity or topic of discussion, or else they fall apart. *In Delta groups, there is a lot of splintering and decentralization. This allows for more focused and productive interaction with only those who share your particular interests or sentiments. People jump from small group to small group easily to keep up their interest level. No one demands that the entire group listen to one person or that everyone do the same thing.* Delta Quadra types believe that if everyone just pursues their own interests and makes some accommodations for others, the group will be better off anyway.* Delta Quadra types do not focusing on building group identity or unity of purpose, but prefer for the group to remain splintered and decentralized.*





> Jimmy Carr idk, he definitely has a schtick, tells a lot of offensive jokes and lots of heckle interactions like the above ^
> 
> strikes me as ENFJ because I think it's a good example of Fe? and his movements are so controlled, like he's always controlling the emotional energy/pushing for a reaction but in a very...collected way
> And he comes across rude but not really cruel, would consider ESTJ or even ENTJ but I feel like he's too...nice somehow, which is kinda a stupid word to use for him, comes across to me role Te + image of vaguely sociopathic persona + some 3ish...nihilism? but it's softened in the right places, it's always striking for maximum ethical/emotive effect?
> 
> And comes across very 3 to me, like he has this very distinctive laugh which is obviously not his genuine laugh, he didn't used to have it for example, but he's ingratiated it into his performances and persona to be very distinctive, I find it enjoyable, seems very 3ish to me
> this is very funny


Yeah, could see that being Se HA too.



ElectricSlime said:


> Seconding that Lynch is Ni as fuck. Mulholland Drive especially lol. Elephant Man was pretty direct a movie but even then it still kept oneiric visuals that to me spoke of Ni, although I guess Socionics Si might do the same thing.


Nah, I doubt Si would ever be Lynchian. I've never seen this movie, but this is Lynch at his most Si it seems:


* *














> Well in my case it's true but I'm a picky person in general lol, with elitistic tendencies about what I look for.
> 
> But I have recently gotten more aware of the way my energy seems to be projected, the way my presence stands out and seems to reach more widely than I thought. More especially when I'm not in a sullen and self turned mood. It's like I talk to someone about something that isn't particularly open enough a topic for anyone else to join in, yet it's like several side characters in the surrounding feel reached enough to drop whatever they're doing and be receptive to it. My sister often talked to me about those sort of instances where in the school bus I'd talk about whatever in the back and half of the people up to the front were actually eavesdropping and paying attention, and the way the intensity of my areas at the cafeteria would totally eclipse the surroundings and catch attention when excited (by attention I mean interest of course). I have also mentioned my cult leader ish tendencies on here.
> 
> It's weird actually, how I was just talking to a friend at the bus stop yesterday and the girl and the guy sitting ont the benches to the side were literally staring at me talking like I was giving a lecture lmao. I had some pretty intense eye contacts with the girl too... But anyway, it's the kind of happenings that aren't rare for me, except at my job because the 30+ women there simply aren't...receptive to my being I guess...
> 
> I think it's important to precise that most people either love me or hate me, the total being rather split lol. It's not really an admiration thing (at least I doubt so) so much as marking the environment with my personal touch and catching attention. My merging tendencies are still quite specific and deliberate but apparently I seem to impregnate the environment with my seed unconsciously. Maybe that's the energy thing. I did mention something very similar in my What's My Type thread back then, so I know it's not a momentary delusion at least
> 
> But then again I'm typing at Sx/So for now, though I'm still not quite sure about the fit... Aaaaand I'm gonna stop bragging now
> 
> Edit: Just wanna add that I don't think a Sx/So will necessarily experience the above, as like we once discussed Sx/So can be huge losers, but I think the way their energy and neuroses are wired is towards potentially reaching that kind of effect at least. A 5 Sx/So will probably find it in intellectual spheres and a 9 will do it less assertively. But nonetheless, they WILL want to pump their intensity seed in their environment.


Ok, that makes sense, and yeah, I think sx/so seems better. "Impregnate the environment with my seed", I know we're talking about sx, but do you really think of it like that haha? 



ElectricSlime said:


> Btw isn't this quintessential Sx/Sp ?:


Yeah, agree with that being sx/sp.



> I also thought about this for SO/SX:


Not as sure about that, mostly because RHCP feels sx/so to me (not that this song does here), but I see where you're coming from.



Nissa Nissa said:


> I would tend to agree, it's just...think you meant the thing about Ni making life seem really short, it's just...it's true? I can't understand why people would choose one thing that might happen in ten years that they think will make them happy or something now, in a way it seems like bad Ni or understanding of time, if we were immortal than sure, play the long game, but since we're not immortal what matters is making our time as close to immortality, and waiting to live until you have something is just digging your grave early in my estimation. *I want to live roundly, not like a spire, you climb and climb and climb and then oh you're at the top it's a nice view, but all the other things you could have seen while you were busy climbing...I want to live so that every day is a little eternity.*


I would agree with that too, but I tend to be more climb, and climb, and climb, and miss a lot of things around me on the way there too, again, like Gatsby just focused on the 'green light' and Daisy, and think I'm single-minded like that, for better or worse. I'd like to be more like you, but maybe that's Ni-ish from you? I wouldn't want to completely rule it out just based on that, but I mean, that's how it is for me, if I'm Ni-valuing.



> (Caregiver thing reminded me, don't kill me I just think it's funny and want to tell this story, always assumed I could make people love me by giving them food, always endeavoured to do so, my friend and I used to bake things and then make sure there was a lot of flour on our clothes and go walking as a brilliant seduction technique as we took 'way to man's heart is through his stomach' extremely literally and assumed everyone would make the correct assumptions a. that is flour b. flour - aha they can cook! c. I must woo her at once)
> 
> (Don't think that's genuinely Caregiver to be clear, just extreme obedience to a popular aphorism and general disconnection from reality )


Feels 2-ish too.



> I don't know what to make of it either, always ends up sounding to me
> Besides...the obvious, always makes me think of putting a hand down a drain to get out some food that has gathered there, doubt that's the image one's meant to have come to mind unless it is (because it's untidy?)
> 
> always think of myself as very 'dry' person but in different way, say this like every time it comes up so I apologize, my soul is just a desert
> 
> which to me a desert is a lot sexier than a river or something, desert has sun scorching the top of the sand and it has implication of desperation and 'what makes a desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well' and all that, just general sexier vibe


Yeah, I mean, it's hotter and steamier. I often described myself as being the water that put out my sx-friend's fire haha. I'm more drawn to water than I am to fire, but I like to have some fire in my relationships too, otherwise it can be boring.



Nissa Nissa said:


> I think it's completely reasonable and good sx description and way to say it I just always think about this scene when I hear this phrase:


:rolling::laughin: Too good!


----------



## Darkbloom

@mistakenforstranger used to love Underneath Your Clothes :fall: @Nissa Nissa the one you posted too :fall:
(always forget how much I loved Shakira)
And think SEE for her, seems Se and Fi much more than Fe to me

Have more to say I think but not right now.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Shakira’s type is HOT, Hips subtype.


----------



## Dangerose

edit: UGH deleted so much by mistake



mistakenforstranger said:


> I think this the only place I've seen that typing, but I have a hard time seeing Taylor as not being Fe-valuing, and more importantly, Fe-Ignoring, and then her recent album and visuals feel more Beta with like the revenge narratives and such, but then not really anything like Beta either.


Agree.



> She is confusing, I agree. I don't know if she's SEI, like I think Carrie Underwood is more that, being from the same genre. Though, probably shouldn't make this into a Taylor Swift typing thread. There's already 100 pages of that! :crazy: Which speaks to how much no one can figure out her type haha. I think I settled on EIE a while back, though.:Smilies1:





Remnants said:


> That link doesn't work, but yeah. Saw this not so long ago and the video feels like a Fe video. (Although with a Social bias of course)


Not sure I can see EIE but this is really Fe I agree, almost everything she does seems really Fe.



> Yeah, but do think that character is sx, while Daisy is more so, and Nick is sp. Golden Trio. I don't know if you saw the movie of it recently, but think Baz Luhrmann's take on it was sx/so. Whereas the Robert Redford one is more sx-last. All Baz's movies seem sx/so. Also, was thinking how his movie of Romeo and Juliet may be one of the most Beta things ever. I want to rewatch it, but always forget to.


Makes sense, yeah! Saw the recent one, struck me as quite Se-Ni, not sure if I would have thought of it as particularly sx/so...remember him, think it was him, doing a particularly creepy version of Faust, can't find it online but if I remember rightly (I was really young) it seemed very Ni?
Haven't seen the Robert Redford one, just clips
Ha, remember watching this in English class, tbh I find it extremely grating :laughing: (I'm all for modern reinterpretations of Shakespeare but something about this is just incredibly unnatural and it never wears off)
But yeah, pretty Beta



> I think it's definitely Ni too. It's that waiting for a future you speak of that you don't understand below. I'm sure there's a quote that is Ni about it that I could find, but don't feel like looking right now. He's either EIE or IEI, I think. Always hated the "beautiful shirts" scene too. It does feel sx/sp for Gatsby, though, like he thinks he's a catch to Daisy through his sp-instinct, property, fortune, and shirts...:bored: While he doesn't participate in the parties he puts on either, being Social-last.


Yeah, think it makes sense
Feels weird that he could be social-last but...it's a very social story, think that's part of it. But his motivations and behaviour are not really social at all. 



> Yes, Lorde is very good. One of the few current artists I can listen to! I would say she's so/sx 4, definitely 4, and I see so and sx themes. I think her first album was very Social (Royals, Team, Tennis Court, Glory and Gore), but Melodrama is more sx; though, I wouldn't say sx-dom, but it focuses on sx more than Pure Heroine did. And yes, I thought that might be a reference to Gatsby too.


I have trouble listening to her tbh, don't actively dislike her anymore but it's hard to get into her music for me, not sure why (even though I have been enjoying Green Light so much whenever I click on a new song I end up turning it off after a minute...)
So I'll trust you, doesn't sound wrong))



> I tend to think of myself as usually fully-clothed, and I "undress" myself over time to the person I want to, but I don't really think of it in those terms either. Just to go along with the metaphor, I would say I'm more clothed than "naked", but I cringe at writing that!


:laughing:
Yeah, I don't think I think about it in general, in these terms or any other))



> Haha, you made me think of this, but horrible song:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, just focusing on nakedness/clothes and how she sings about it feels so _unromantic_ to me. The Jeff Buckley song I posted before is more my style. I mean, I definitely think core type is far more important than instinct, since JB is a 4, and also it is just a better song.


Don't really enjoy either song, but yeah, get what you mean))


> The "distance" thing may be related to Fi, since Fi (in Socionics) is usually about judging the distance between yourself in your relationships, and why it's sometimes termed Relation Ethics, but can see how that's confused with sx too.


Oh, that could make sense!
I mean, my mental picture was like...two people at the end of a long hall or something, and you can walk closer, signifying learning more about each other, or something, I don't think I understand 



> It's hard to say why, but it's just a "vibe", but I guess I would say she's free-spirited, strong-willed, and morally-inclined. Sorry, not much help, but like I know you were thinking if you're ESE or IEE, and I see Mrs. Bennett being ESE, and don't see you as that. And yes, Mrs. Bennet is SO annoying. I would never wish her upon anyone haha. She's basically the worst of Fe. It's funny also how if Darcy is ILI and she's ESE, then they're Conflictors and she has such a low opinion of him. She's always like, "I've never met such a horrible man!!"


Thanks, and true, agree
(ugh wrote more before but then confusion and not sure what I did, accidentally closed tab? and autosave only caught the above)

Yeah! Someone wrote this 16types and I love it, especially Mrs. Bennett. (Though, I don't think Jane is Ni-Fe, she's Si-Fe).

Pride & Prejudice - Page 3[/QUOTE]

ahahaha this is great, especially the end))

(Have trouble understanding Lizzy but it might be lack of Regency soc, rather than lack of Fi, kinda feels like it though)


> Yeah, that's basically what I mean, Graham is like ramping up the emotional energy, and wants everyone to have fun and participate. It's a lot more cohesive energy, and think Fe wants to be that way, especially in groups. James is more one-on-one with each guest, having their own turn speaking, and also talking about his personal relationships/experiences (Fi-valuing) with his wife in between, which would be a bit buzzkill on Graham's show. You can even tell Tom Hanks is more Fe-valuing too. I'll say James is IEE.
> 
> So, I think it's a Delta vs Alpha too:


yes, makes perfect sense!)

(Well, I had better responses before but :frustrating
@Rose for a Heart For me it's just the words, like 'wet' my mind goes first to like food caught in the drain, then to literal factors of sex, which I'd rather not focus on, then to like a marsh, guess it's similar to the antipathy for the word 'moist', just too many connotations that go badly together at once

Or not that exactly, just my Si goes oh noooo a little, or...well, I'm not completely sure what it's supposed to mean, also

And juice idk it's a thing children drink, I always always think of this awful juice-obsessed character:










I mean I think it's supposed to be like...a fruit which is full of juice, a very ripe fruit that isn't dry, that kind of mental picture but it's not the picture I get

would generally prefer 'liquor' but that has its own problems


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=48632" target="_blank">mistakenforstranger</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> used to love Underneath Your Clothes :fall:
> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Nissa Nissa</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> the one you posted too :fall:
> (always forget how much I loved Shakira)
> And think SEE for her, seems Se and Fi much more than Fe to me
> 
> Have more to say I think but not right now.


Never got really into her (had her completely confused with someone else too, similar-looking blonde singer whose name also begins with S? don't remember who she is but that's why I was arguing so strongly against sx 2 for her @mistakenforstranger, recently realized it, I agree now)

Love this one though:






_May God and your mother take care of you_ 

and the English version, they're both so great

* *













(And the one I posted, a few others, a lot of her songs are very boring and slow)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> @ElectricSlime the thing is not sure how caregiver-ish I am, in real ways, I don't know if you'd see me as "She'd take care of my baby Si so well :heart: "


I doubt ILIs look at a SEE and tell themselves "Damn she can step on me :heart:", not all of them anyway lol. 



> being weirded out by people's thin jackets is not caregiving, like as a kid my SEI (and either 9 or phobic-ish 6 with 2 fix) grandma always found it weird how I'm a girl yet refused to do things women do lol like helping with cooking, chores and such, I always think 'If I had him I'd take such good care of him' but it's like...different from being a ceregiving person, and doing people's hair and giving people candy are fun things to do, not caregiving things I think?


To me there's nothing fun about those things, but I'm a dude. 



> As I said I'm nothing like my dad's ex who was actually Si ego, I liked her nice smelling soaps and the fact that she liked to buy stuff of all kinds, partly because then I got stuff of all kinds


I don't see what that has to with anything, I'm sure Clint Eastwood is nothing like her as well and he's Si ego. 




> And I saw her as too sensitive and concerned with appropriateness and sensitivity in terms of...like remember once naming my doll 'Died' (it was a funny sounding word I'd just learned) and she was so 'How could she name a doll like that? :concern: ' and I purposely kept the name, dad thought she was exaggerating too.


I think most SEIs have other priorities than that, and are generally just too lax to stress over those things. 



> (could be Fe too? Confusing to me how in a way Fi is sensitivity but Alpha Fe people are the ones always thinking for no reason that something's insensitive and inappropriate unless I'm mistyping them, for me nothing's insensitive unless it's actually insensitive towards someone I care about, like if someone in the room recently lost someone dear to them I'd be aware of it and would never name my doll 'Dead' in front of them, but reasoning like It's not a pleasant word' means nothing to me.


Well LIIs and ILEs really aren't the kind to fret over sensitivities the way you describe it, and it seems to me you exaggerate and misunderstand Alpha Fe. It's not about keeping the peace and sensitivities with an iron fist, it's about being positive and nice, downplaying the negative to keep the environment positive. Alphas can take jokes. Very well in fact. 



> But I can be worried for people, make them go to the doctor, etc. but that just seems normal, often necessary with my mother (random thing I forgot to mention earlier)


I can be worried for people but I won't send them see the doctor because I tend to assume people are as unfocused on inner sensory issues as I am, and thus have an hard time evaluating whether they need to or not.



> I don't even have stories like @Nissa Nissa 's flour thing (so cute :cupcake: , and hilarious :laughing: , feels Si/Ne-ish valuing to me at least), that kind of thing is not that much on my radar, idk, have similar-ish things I don't wanna share  but they aren't anything like that, similar-ish essence (I'll do X to place certain idea in minds of men) with completely different way of expressing it.


From my point of view you both ramble about similar kind of stories, with a lot of details about mundane things.



> I'm too 'This is not necessary so I'm not gonna do it' like I know how much of what I need to put into something to get specific thing out of it and I focus on that, nothing's gonna happen if I learn X so I don't want to waste time trying to learn it, don't think she thinks in those terms as much.
> 
> I could see and somewhat relate to values of every quadra aside from Delta I think.


"Delta types make a point of talking about the rationale behind their actions and emphasizing the productiveness or unproductiveness of different ways of doing things - even in such emotional areas as personal relationships."

"Delta types value peaceful, refreshing activities where they are doing something useful and balancing out their inner world at the same time."

I'm gonna ask again, what are you sure of in terms of IE ? Explain in relation to your personality, not by bringing up an isolated anecdote comparing yourself with someone you know. I'm talking the kind of person you are as a whole.

Honestly while Paradigm was very blunt, I also think that writing walls of text about whatever to give a window to people on how your mind works isn't very effective and is mostly tiring for the people involved. But if you insist on them being meaningful, then I'll say that the only things I've gotten out of them so far is that you're a feeler and have strong Si, and I think you value it. We're several now to have pointed out its focus in your conversations in general.


----------



## Darkbloom

@owlet 
Yay, glad we're finally understanding each other :hellokitty:



> so for example an SEI in the US and an SEI in Japan will have a focus on their internal state and how to influence this positively (or negatively for themselves and others.


This (for example) is the kind of thing I keep trying to idk show somehow or ask about, like "I think wearing pajamas a lot could come from me focusing on my internal state, yes or no? But it could also be...", "This could be sign that my internal process is X way, does that make sense?" or wanting people to figure out what my internal reasoning could be or something because I don't know how to express it, it's a lot to ask I guess, but it's not like I think socionics type is about whether I go grocery shopping in pajamas or not, I think about why I wear pajamas, I think about other people who wear pajamas as well as people who always change into real clothing as soon as they wake up and I try to look for their internal patterns and such and compare them to mine. And at the same time I'm trying to figure out what exactly it means to focus on one's internal state and what qualifies as focusing on one's internal state, what else is there to focus on, etc.
(just an example)
Hope I'm explaining it well enough.



> Conversation topics can be useful, yes, but they're also under a lot of influences from variables (like in Finland it's not considered okay to discuss money, so that would rarely come up in conversation).


Also assume people know what variables I'm aware of, why on earth would I be talking about wearing pajamas all day long if everyone in my culture the exact same way :frustrating: (not frustration with you, just in general) , as I said above I was trying to get at cognitive and enneagram-y differences between me and pajama haters, that's my way of thinking when I talk about things like that, I'm not trying to just place my actions into categories/types, I'm implying there's something behind the action, should probably explain it more thoroughly and not expect people to know my mind better than I do


----------



## ElectricSlime

@owlet

Don't you dare tell them to use baby steps and give context to their anecdotes, don't. We'll end up with novels to read :sad:


----------



## remarkable_remark

_hi_


----------



## Tad Cooper

Asd456 said:


> By definition, it's the combination of your core type and dominant instinct. I agree that not all descriptions are accurate (this is true for wings and tritype as well).
> 
> Good question! No, you don't need to consider tritype to fully understand the types. I don't think tritype is important. Some people like it, some people like subtypes, some people like wings, etc. Tritype is the only one that I don't use.
> 
> Yeah, not sure about that part (don't worry about the descriptions being 100% accurate).
> 
> Helping people and doing things for people because you want to believe that you're "good" is Social 7 (that was my first impression, you reminded me of my Social 7 friend)! I think it was Nananjo or Chestnut that said Social 7s can appear 2ish because of their desire to help people. Social 7 (Sacrifice) is the countertype so it's harder to recognize 7 as the core type. Kind of like the Sexual 6 (countertype) appearing 8ish. Social 7 is anti-gluttony. IME, they have a positive/upbeat vibe to them. They try to be altruistic, pure, good, helpful, etc.
> 
> I know a few Self-Preservation 3s. They're not focused on a "good" self-image, it's more a focus on "being the best" and getting things done, accomplishing tasks, being competent, resourceful, etc. I would say compared to Social 7s, Self-Preservation 3s are more hard-working and serious. Regardless of their subtype, every 3 has a drive to succeed (but the definition of success is subjective and varies for different people). It's unfortunate that 3s are described unfavorably because they're one of my favorite types. At their best, they use their drive for success to motivate and help other people. They can be your biggest cheerleader and motivator when you're down or need a helping hand.


Thanks! Do you think it's best to read a wide range of descriptions and then put them together to form a kind-of-whole picture?

Ah cool okay, so good to ignore those things at least until the core if found?

Oh interesting! How do I remind you of your friend? I tend to be positive but not overly upbeat I dont think (Im quite medium/low energy). I dont want to be altruistic but want to be good and to make things good - I want to help situations and in turn help people if that makes sense?

Hmm Im not into a good self image or being the best but do work hard and want to be competent, resourceful, able to cope. I dont so much want to succeed in everything as dont like failing - I do relate to cheering for people and trying to motivate them, but get put off if theyre constantly negative and wont actually try. I like to facilitate but not do the work for them.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Tad Cooper* what are your thoughts about 6?
> 
> (I think it's better to err on the side of more detail, perhaps not as much as me  but if people get bored they can skip...)
> 
> 9s can rile people up and react aggressively, in fact I associate some of that with 9...no one wants peace _all the time_ and it's more about the 9s internal sense of peace which might not get conceptualized as peace...maybe more like the proper state of affairs, or something
> 
> but I'm not sure I see you as a 9 anyways


I'm interested in type 6 as there doesnt seem to be much thats consistent with the type. I relate to being ambivalent to people until they earn my trust/respect, and I want someone or something to trust in and look to. Id say Im pretty much split between people and ideas in what I want to trust and believe in and what I also struggle to trust and believe in. I tend to be pretty unsure around authority figures, usually get told to stop being so formal with them, but also react badly to incompetent authority (I got fired from a job for going against my manager because she was breaking my contract and I refused to so it because the whole situation made no logical sense). What would you say are the main features of type 6?

I understand that with 9, but I dont need inner peace of external peace to be okay - I mean, most people want some level of peace but dont need it constantly or strive for it, they just appreciate when it happens. 

What type do you see?


----------



## Wisteria

Vixey said:


> (could be Fe too? Confusing to me how in a way Fi is sensitivity but Alpha Fe people are the ones always thinking for no reason that something's insensitive and inappropriate unless I'm mistyping them, *for me nothing's insensitive unless it's actually insensitive towards someone I care about,* like if someone in the room recently lost someone dear to them I'd be aware of it and would never name my doll 'Dead' in front of them, but reasoning like It's not a pleasant word' means nothing to me.





ElectricSlime said:


> Well LIIs and ILEs really aren't the kind to fret over sensitivities the way you describe it, and it seems to me you exaggerate and misunderstand Alpha Fe. It's not about keeping the peace and sensitivities with an iron fist, it's about being positive and nice, downplaying the negative to keep the environment positive. Alphas can take jokes. Very well in fact.


bolded - Is this more like Fi possibly? I don't judge things like that based on a single person, my relationship with someone has nothing to do with what could be perceived as insensitive, what's appropriate, etc. Just seems like a focus on relationships, rather than what is socially acceptable as a whole.

Alpha Fe is combined with the other IEs, so in SFs this will be Si. This could be creating a positive environment for everyone by creating pleasant sensations or something like that.

About making jokes, I only do this when I know no offence will be taken by the person or group of people. This is why I don't make jokes or tease people I'm not that close to, because I need to learn what their sore spots are, how sensitive they might be to jokes. I usually only behave like this with the people i'm close to or at least good friends with. That way I can tease them or make harmless insults to lighten up the feeling atmosphere knowing they won't take it personally. 

You need to look at each type individually too, instead of just quadras, as the above is probably Fi demonstrative. I'm not sure if other Alpha types will have the same approach. 



ElectricSlime said:


> I don't see what that has to with anything, I'm sure Clint Eastwood is nothing like her as well and he's Si ego.


how do you know he's Si ego?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> Hmm maybe. I distrust myself with making decisions, always doubt it if it was the right one afterwards. Not sure if I doubt others so much. in the past i've been the opposite actually, as I become overly reliant on a person.
> 
> It's probably hard for me to express due to a lack of assertiveness - something I need to work on
> Being able to channel your anger in one direction is probably a good thing though. That's common for teens, even I did things like that when i was angry! mostly I was just really moody as a teenager lol
> That's true, it's quite necessary.
> 
> haha glad you like the channel, his videos can be quite entertaining


Ahh interesting! I doubt myself and others a lot, so have to look all around the decision before making it, and even then....How do you mean overly-reliant?
Definitely a good point! Assertiveness and lack of it really affects how you come across and how you react (Im also not very good at being assertive because of being unsure where the line is - how far can I go before I become unreasonable)
Haha thats good to know! I was very unreasonable and angry!
They're great, very funny and nicely drawn!



> True, I think the hardest types to understand so far are 5, 9 and 3.
> 9 is also confusing for me because I keep overlapping it with SP and Si base
> 
> I don't relate to 7 much, this was the feedback I got though! unhealthy 1s show unhealthy traits of 7 (and healthy ones 4) so maybe that theory explains the pattern.
> 2 was also suggested, but not as a core type, just as a wing/image type. I do relate to type 2 though, especially from timeless' description, that's why I was typed as 1w2 earlier


What do you find hard with 5 and 3? Yeah 9 is very stereotypically sp and si!
Hmm do you get the unhealthy traits of 7 or 1 more? 
Interesting! what about 2?




> no problem! ah interesting, could do a questionnaire if you have time for it? I'm not sure how the core type works in relation to the wing exactly...I think the core type is the most dominant because it's fear drives you, so maybe look into that more? Then identify traits of another type that could be driven by that core type and it's basic fear.
> 
> I don't understand much about the wings but I think they're called "wings" for a reason, like a core type will relate to both the wings and show traits of both (This does seem true as I can't even decide my wing for type 1) Perhaps the wing is sort of like the aux function in mbti, it's used to serve the dominant/core type. The concept of wings is quite literal in a way, except most people seem to believe one of the wings is more dominant.
> 
> You could also try narrowing down the core type using the triads, which are;
> 
> hornevian traid:
> withdrawn: 4,5, 9
> compliant: 1, 2,6
> assertive:3,7,8
> 
> harmonic triad:
> Positive outlook: 2, 7, 9
> Reactive: 4,6,8
> Competency: 1, 3,5,
> 
> and also the head/heart/body triads! the link explains all of these more. I found it helpful as I noticed some of it correlated with types I was considering.


Hmm I can try, I find questionnaires tend to be awkward for me (never the right options in there) Hmm maybe! That sounds sensible to me, but Im not 100% on wings. I think some people say there's being biwingal or something? Both wings equally there etc. 
Ah cool thanks!! Have you looked into triads as well?


----------



## Paradigm

Vixey said:


> :laughing:
> (think probably SEI too, something about ESE feels wrong)
> 
> 
> I don't really get relevant/irrelevant thing, I say the most irrelevant things when I try to talk about something relevant when the whole topic is not even that relevant to me :/, think that to type someone you have to read their posts, really read them, and try to get a feel for them as a person, depends on person how much information you will need to type them accurately but things like stories from their past, explanations of how they tend to think compared to other people and such, what their focus is on daily basis (I love things like your flour story, well many things you say but it's the most recent example, 10 different people with flour on their clothes could have 10 completely different things going through their minds, would be idiotic to type someone based on their flour thoughts alone and most people will not have very deep thoughts about it, but it still might say something about them, if they have a story about it then it definitely says something about them, what happened in the actual story, their thoughts, the fact that they even talked about it, the way they talked about it, all of it means something and is therefore at least a bit relevant)
> I love things like knowing people's fantasies, daydreams and such too.
> It's just very stubborn and unhelpful to see everything as irrelevant, @Paradigm I get the impression that you don't even read Nissa's posts for the most part, you definitely don't think about what she's trying to express, it's all just 'ramble' to you, you're constantly thinking in terms of some preconceived ideas that you have and responding to things no one's even talking about.
> 
> (you don't have to thank this Nissa if you don't want to)


I don't. I'm not going to wade through 50000 characters of "stories" across 15 posts just to try to pull apart one iota of worthwhile information. That's thrusting the responsibility of self-reflection onto us, which is both unhelpful to the typee and an unfair delegation of analysis. This behavior is only acceptable in complete newbs, not people who have been told repeatedly, for months, what is helpful and relevant to us in this thread. It might all be "helpful" (though I think that there's a difference between helpful and interesting should be noted) to a handful, but this site is far more populated than just that handful.

On you perceiving me as working of "preconceived notions"... Okay, sometimes I do, but more often it's a difference in interpretation. I don't do the whole "follow your line of thinking to its conclusion" thing. That's analysis. I tend to assume others engage in self-analysis here. And it's related to the problem of there being 15 humongous posts that the non-participants are apparently supposed to follow every couple of hours.

Not to mention that I (and many others, I'm sure) use perc on mobile sometimes and this site is very mobile-unfriendly (partly due to its overall topic, sure, but partly UI and user behavior). The long posts that contain a short reply are next to impossible to reply to. This reply being case in point, because lol trying to edit your quote while maintaining sanity. Same with trying to go back to look at what happened several posts/pages ago. - that's asking for a post in progress to be lost.

It's also a telling sign that _someone else_ (well I suppose two someones, @owlet ) bothers to be more helpful and relevant than the person in question. I'll concede to @owlet's point that I could have been more sensitive (or... Offer alternatives?), but I also feel like that route has been tried already. Repeatedly. (And not necessarily by myself.)

Edit: Upon reading the thread and seeing the progress, I apologize for potentially restarting fires, and offer to try harder to read before replying so that I'm more on topic if the thread can stay on topic.


----------



## Dangerose

@Paradigm when was the last time you made a post that wasn't correcting someone?

I don't like you, I don't care if you read my posts, fuck off


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> @Paradigm when was the last time you made a post that wasn't correcting someone?
> 
> I don't like you, I don't care if you read my posts, fuck off


Nothing like an ad hominem to really drive the point home, eh?


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> Nothing like an ad hominem to really drive the point home, eh?


what part of this wasn't ad hominem?


----------



## Darkbloom

Wisteria said:


> bolded - Is this more like Fi possibly? I don't judge things like that based on a single person, my relationship with someone has nothing to do with what could be perceived as insensitive, what's appropriate, etc. Just seems like a focus on relationships, rather than what is socially acceptable as a whole.


Yeah, not sure, I noticed that the way I talk about things really depends on who I'm with and what I think they are sensitive to, or like think when I'm generally feeling shy/socially anxious I focus on what's acceptable but beyond that I focus on individual people and their real feelings, if something doesn't affect real person's real feelings I don't care about how wrong it is.
I also never really...like I can dislike X quality but if my friend has it and it's not getting in the way of our friendship then I don't care, or I'd never stop being friends with someone just because they did something bad or whatever if it's not related to our relationship, to be my friend all you need to do is be my friend and only thing that's forbidden is to not being my friend! 

But it could also be So last and lack of 1?



> Alpha Fe is combined with the other IEs, so in SFs this will be Si. This could be creating a positive environment for everyone by creating pleasant sensations or something like that.


The wording doesn't sound like me 
I don't have this...idk pleasant sensations, I don't call them pleasant sensations and they are somewhat separate from positive environment even though obviously having food is good whatever you're doing and environment can be a pleasant sensation, but I tend to focus on those things separately.



> About making jokes, I only do this when I know no offence will be taken by the person or group of people. This is why I don't make jokes or tease people I'm not that close to, because I need to learn what their sore spots are, how sensitive they might be to jokes. I usually only behave like this with the people i'm close to or at least good friends with. That way I can tease them or make harmless insults to lighten up the feeling atmosphere knowing they won't take it personally.


I joke with people who joke I guess, as a child I'd joke and playfully insult but also genuinely be a bit...rough I guess, with my dad, he's a LII and he definitely can take a joke, or one childhood friend (not sure of her type), but here for example I think I rarely or never joke with people in teasing way.

Thank you, and I'm still trying to think of responses to Ne part of the long questionnaire each:
___________________
@Paradigm actually I use PerC on my phone too :hug: 
(but desktop version)

Then just don't respond if you don't find it interesting? Never once have I cried because I logged into PerC and saw no new responses from you, think the world will keep spinning just fine :sun-smiley: :saturn: and I'll keep rolling :hampster:


----------



## Darkbloom

Good night, no one expect no other responses regarding this topic from me ever again 
:sleepytime:


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Good night, no one expect no other responses regarding this topic from me ever again
> :sleepytime:


(sorry for...entangling you in this? or something, you get me)


----------



## owlet

Vixey said:


> @*owlet*
> Yay, glad we're finally understanding each other :hellokitty:
> 
> 
> This (for example) is the kind of thing I keep trying to idk show somehow or ask about, like "I think wearing pajamas a lot could come from me focusing on my internal state, yes or no? But it could also be...", "This could be sign that my internal process is X way, does that make sense?" or wanting people to figure out what my internal reasoning could be or something because I don't know how to express it, it's a lot to ask I guess, but it's not like I think socionics type is about whether I go grocery shopping in pajamas or not, I think about why I wear pajamas, I think about other people who wear pajamas as well as people who always change into real clothing as soon as they wake up and I try to look for their internal patterns and such and compare them to mine. And at the same time I'm trying to figure out what exactly it means to focus on one's internal state and what qualifies as focusing on one's internal state, what else is there to focus on, etc.
> (just an example)
> Hope I'm explaining it well enough.


The issue with the example is that there are a ton of reasons for someone wearing pajamas - it's not necessarily linked to any function (you could perhaps break it down, but the vast majority of people do enjoy comfort. The most telling thing is if someone doesn't value this above other things and doesn't pursue it in a more complex way, as wearing pajamas is very simplistic, almost stereotypical comfort). Excluding dimensionality from your self-analysis will make things very difficult as all types use all the functions, but they have different dimensionalities and valued/unvalued.
Hopefully this is making it clearer why things are getting lost in translation.



> Also assume people know what variables I'm aware of, why on earth would I be talking about wearing pajamas all day long if everyone in my culture the exact same way :frustrating: (not frustration with you, just in general) , as I said above I was trying to get at cognitive and enneagram-y differences between me and pajama haters, that's my way of thinking when I talk about things like that, I'm not trying to just place my actions into categories/types, I'm implying there's something behind the action, should probably explain it more thoroughly and not expect people to know my mind better than I do


It's best not to assume, generally. Again, it's more the lack of deep self-analysis (things which really matter, as opposed to trivialities) coupled with the complexities of the socionics system which is going to make finding your type much more difficult.



ElectricSlime said:


> @*owlet*
> 
> Don't you dare tell them to use baby steps and give context to their anecdotes, don't. We'll end up with novels to read :sad:


Imagine if PerC became a published novel.



Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Paradigm* when was the last time you made a post that wasn't correcting someone?
> 
> I don't like you, I don't care if you read my posts, fuck off


Come on now. There's no need for personal attacks - Paradigm was responding to points you made towards her.


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> :lovekitty:
> 
> I want to make a system with like water sx fire sx air sx and earth sx, water so fire so air so and earth so, same for sp
> 
> really like elements haha


It doesn't have _ fixed it for you)


And that would be :fall:
They are constantly somewhere at the back of my mind, your subtypes too


Feeling water-y lately, used to see water differently (not sure what changed)


----------



## Darkbloom

I don't know how I'm supposed to be able to tell how many dimensions my Si has, there's only so much you can do with Si lol
edit: where are the fucking lists with what each one does, can only find for normative :frustrating:



> Misunderstandings occurs when a person, for example, sits and tearfully recounts a story of how he was supposedly offended. The whole situation is such that help is not required, there is nothing there to help with. But for some reason he is still telling it! And often I find myself quietly falling into stupor, frantically trying to figure out what kind of response is required of me. It is clear that no thoughts come to my mind, except: "Huh, so what do I do, what do you want?" All of this is reflected on my face with corresponding expression, and the person ... starts turning angry, not seeing any adequate response to his story. (One-dimensional Fe : SLI "Gabin")


Always relate to 1D Fe a bit
(I mean I understand why they are telling it but don't know how to react and not sound fake)
Talked about being terrified of being IxTx or something

Maybe I'm your dual Nissa! :words:


----------



## Mr Castelo

I'm reconsidering type 9, besides Withdrawn, none of the triads fit me that well (granted, I think that the triads are imperfect). I think that the instincts actually do a better job describing myself, and ILI-Ni is by far the most relatable type in all systems to me. I also recognize that my problems go beyond the Enneagram (I've been suspecting to have Schizoid PD for quite some time -- funnily enough, 9 and 5 are the types that align with Schizoid the most).

@mp2

How much have you considered IEE? I also can't see your Ne being 1D, and you don't really seem Introverted to me (based on vibe alone).


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@mistakenforstranger @Nissa Nissa well the thing is, I have made the points that needed to be made. I was curious about your reaction to those words because I suspected as much (what you guys later told me). Anything is exactly what you see it as. I don’t take the words literally, and I also feel like no matter what you describe it as - wet, fiery, seductive (and mfs, could you be having an Fe bias here perhaps?) - they are all the same. I don’t mean this in a mean way but the trouble I have run into with sx-lasts is that they do not easily see how those qualities pervade every inch of an SX-first’s being. They seem to have a...limited grasp on it. If I could use the socionics model of dimensionality for an example...they seem to have a lower dimensionality understanding of it. That being said, we may also be running into some communication errors and such.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> I doubt ILIs look at a SEE and tell themselves "Damn she can step on me :heart:", not all of them anyway lol.


"Damn she can step on me :heart: "
"She can take care of my Si :heart: "
Very similar :tongue:

I mean I don't know if I come across as having good and valued Si or what it means to have good Si, I can only compare myself to people I know but when I try to do that you get mad at me :/



> To me there's nothing fun about those things, but I'm a dude.


You don't like candy? 

But also in games and such I always like the part with customizing your character, look, personality and all that, could do it all day long, or like I'd make up characters in my head and imagine their personalities, relationships to other characters and also _all_ the things, clothes, collections of stuff they owned, which seems alpha SF-y as well as just girly?



> I don't see what that has to with anything, I'm sure Clint Eastwood is nothing like her as well and he's Si ego.


:laughing: 



> I think most SEIs have other priorities than that, and are generally just too lax to stress over those things.


This I agree with, don't care about things that don't affect me, people can name their dolls whatever they want around me!



> Well LIIs and ILEs really aren't the kind to fret over sensitivities the way you describe it, and it seems to me you exaggerate and misunderstand Alpha Fe. It's not about keeping the peace and sensitivities with an iron fist, it's about being positive and nice, downplaying the negative to keep the environment positive. Alphas can take jokes. Very well in fact.


I agree, I have LII father, he's not like that at all.
But he is less...idk something than me, don't know if I downplay the negative, I'm not talking about jokes.



> I can be worried for people but I won't send them see the doctor because I tend to assume people are as unfocused on inner sensory issues as I am, and thus have an hard time evaluating whether they need to or not.


If someone got bitten by a tick and months later they still have a huge red circle on their skin then I'm pretty sure it'd be advisable to see a doctor 

But for example I've been having ear issues for about a year now, first I didn't want to go to the doctor because I thought I wouldn't be allowed to go to a very important concert, and had no health insurance, then idk, now it's mostly ok, sometimes not at all though, but I ignore it, want it to get offended and leave me alone.

But I don't get how a person can not notice their sensory issues, seems impossible to me.



> "Delta types make a point of talking about the rationale behind their actions and emphasizing the productiveness or unproductiveness of different ways of doing things - even in such emotional areas as personal relationships."
> 
> "Delta types value peaceful, refreshing activities where they are doing something useful and balancing out their inner world at the same time."


But this for example doesn't sound much like me 
I meant more like "Is this gonna make anyone want to marry me more than they currently do? No? Bye", "Do I get any money for this?" and such, more 3 influence probably :laughing:



> I'm gonna ask again, what are you sure of in terms of IE ? Explain in relation to your personality, not by bringing up an isolated anecdote comparing yourself with someone you know. I'm talking the kind of person you are as a whole.


Again, I don't really know what any of them truly are at this point :/ (even though I read everything you're supposed to read)

I would say I have strong Fe, because that seems like the most natural focus to me, I used to think Fi was literally a completely fake motivation/way of thinking, like people were lying about their 'Fi' (don't mean actual Fi, it was long before I discovered typology but stuff associated with Fi) just to be difficult or manipulative or something, it makes no sense to me to prioritize anything but atmosphere and relationships, for instance I'm always shocked some people are here to learn, I mean I like learning about this, typing myself and other people, at times I can't be at rest until I understand something, think some of the knowledge is valuable, but for me it's primarily a conversation topic, I want to share things, have people share things with me, want to read fun posts, respond to fun posts, be reminded of things, talk about myself, etc.
Talked about Fe a couple of weeks ago here, think you remember, all of it still applies.
If what I'm speaking of is definitely Fe and Fe only then I'm very unlikely to be anything but Fe ego.

My Ti and Te are both on life support, I don't wanna talk about them.

With Ni/Ne it's hard, @Nissa Nissa 's Ne I often like because there's a lot of F to it, but you probably noticed she participates in more conversations than I do I have little patience for books and theories and such, BUT, I always thought my Ne (and Ni together with it) could be good because I'm good at noticing possibilities, multiple meanings, connections, connections between meanings, like there are ten different sounding things but there's one idea that unites all of them, or there's one idea but it could show in ten different ways, I naturally create what I think could be potential meanings and possibilities, etc., would say my interests aren't N-ish and I'm perfectly fine with being a sensor in mbti, think it makes sense, but I don't feel like I have a hard time with N thinking.

Se vs Si, well agree I have lots of Si probably, don't know how a person can have a body and not feel it and don't get how you can have a body that you can feel yet you ignore it, sounds exaggerated to me, but in terms of _value_,I think I value Se more on conscious level, power, etc. is more important to me than pleasantness, I don't think in terms of refreshing activities and balance, I seek stimulation and immoderation with everything but that could be sx influence. 
Si valuing simply sounds more harmonious to me than I am, I don't mean just peaceful, the thing is I don't cognitively focus on peace and harmony, balance and pleasant feelings and such even though on some level I seek them, I don't want constant discord, need to be either very bored or very angry to not be annoyed with it, and I want it to be done once I'm done with it, same with grudges and such, drives me insane when I'm over something and someone else is still stuck on it.
But I don't think in words like peace and such, like one thing about Si quadras is just...technically Alpha is not that much less relatable but the words somehow don't mirror the way I focus on things.

I don't know if this is relevant or not but I don't have this...subtly creating pleasant sensations in the background, I'm usually very focused on 'Si' when I'm doing it and I like my inner world to be painted by my inner sensations as well as things happening around me, and somehow other way around too but not sure how to explain it, not talking about anything very profound lol, but wondering if it says anything about Si because Si doms seem like they are always...very casually and unconsciously Si-ing around but of course I'm not in those people's minds, I can't know what exactly their thoughts are.



> Honestly while Paradigm was very blunt, I also think that writing walls of text about whatever to give a window to people on how your mind works isn't very effective and is mostly tiring for the people involved. But if you insist on them being meaningful, then I'll say that the only things I've gotten out of them so far is that you're a feeler and have strong Si, and I think you value it. We're several now to have pointed out its focus in your conversations in general.


No one needs to read if they really hate it _so_ much :/
People are acting like we are holding them captive and forcing them to listen to pajama stories, threatening to cut off their limbs if they don't respond.


But thank you, appreciate your responses (can be challenging though), just hope this post isn't as unhelpful as all the other ones


----------



## owlet

Apologies for some brief replies.



Paradigm said:


> Yeah. On the one hand, I understand their point that they occasionally bring up new details, but my point (or one of mine) is that it's usually buried under the same ton of "arguments" that have already been pointed out as irrelevant. New details don't always mean a new idea is being presented.
> 
> And to be fair, I didn't quote the complaint of too-little input Nissa made a few days back. I could rationalize that but I guess I'll take ownership of that failing. What you quoted seems to be in response to my latest post, which was to Vixey - not anything Nissa herself said. I'm confused who is speaking for who, and who is taking what to another thread, so I'm unsure what replies would be moot at this point. _This_ post (to clarify, this one I'm writing) feels moot but you seem to genuinely be trying to help and I wanted to acknowledge that, so... Thank you!


Yeah, I think I agree. (And sorry for being muddled.)
Apologies to @Vixey and @Nissa Nissa because I've been replying recently while extremely sleep deprived, so muddling things (somehow your posts sound similar to me). Vixey, with dimensionality, you're generalising between things like '3D Si' which is made up of two categories, the valued and the unvalued, which dictates a certain response to the function (i.e. Si PoLR is generally feeling very uncomfortable and even irritable towards signs of it as it's unvalued and only based in experience). That was what I meant, but I also phrased it really badly, so I don't blame you for being annoyed.



ElectricSlime said:


> In that case we should make it a long poem, like Dante's Divine Comedy. Emphasis on the comedy part :smug:


h:



mistakenforstranger said:


> @*owlet*, how about you also being sp-4? Think this is true to an extent too:


Yeah, I do think I'm sp-first for sure! On the other hand, while I have social anxiety, I don't relate to the social envy idea at all, or a shame about loving. (Although as far as I remember, I didn't relate well to sx 4 either.)


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> I completely used the wrong word/phrase, yeah. Better way to say it would've been the way things unraveled was off-putting. Given information was your gif followed by everyone else's (plus a small bit of yours) explanations and opinions. _At the time,_ I felt like you were baiting me while letting others respond to the points, and inaccurately conveyed that feeling. It seems I was wrong anyway, so I apologize.
> (For the record: I'm not assuming you asked for anyone to speak on your behalf. The lack of direct engagement while engaging others was the part that got me.)
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm not asking or expecting you to like me, and not at all asking you to respond in any specific fashion. (I certainly didn't imply every post should be "perfect," either.) I'll totally admit to being the bad guy here, so aside from the swearing at me, it's fine - don't apologize if you don't mean it.


Ok, thanks...as I said I didn't really have time to be responding fully, and I definitely wasn't trying to 'bait' you.
I should have responded more respectfully so I do wish to apologize.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I mean, it could also be because it fits with the others, *S*ocial, *S*elf-Preservation, *S*exual. I don't know if the Sexual instinct necessarily has to be _sexual _(i.e my point earlier about Jay Gatsby, which I think is interesting to consider since there is very little consummating going on, and yet he's sx-dom...), but it certainly can become sexual, or is looking for sexual connection as its aim. To me, I think Intimate, or maybe even Desire, as a name is more accurate, which doesn't necessarily imply sex, but still gets the point across as to what it is, I think? I remember seeing some description about sx, where it said sx is "chemistry, not intimacy", like I get what it means, but not intimacy at all? Why can't it be both? I think it attributed intimacy to Social, which makes no sense to me.


I guess I understand why they want to do that, like with what Vixey was saying, but I agree more...well I think people use the word 'intimacy' in wildly different ways - remember an elementary school teacher telling us about the 'stages of friendship' and how 'intimate friend' was the closest stage, you had to be friends with someone for at least seven years, went home and told my parents about my goal of making certain of my friends my intimate friends and they were shocked :shocked:

Anyways I associate that word with sex but also a lot of gentleness which doesn't seem necessarily sx, but I don't think it's some stupid word to use for the instinct. I like 'connection' as well though it is sufficiently vague that it's probably not the best. 



> Yes, I think so too, with some Alpha SF, and so/sp af! It's very focused on the bonds and personal relations between the characters, and how people should treat one another (Fi in Socionics), which is also boring af! There's just very little drama and everything is so...who even cares? to me, but it's not really written for someone like me either. I mean, you don't see a bunch of dudes at Jane Austen bookclubs lol. I wonder if Jane Austen is EII-Fi?


True, true
Well I like them as romances, don't focus as much on the 'how people should treat each other' aspect, the style of life is very pleasant to me, and I like the observations of human nature, enjoy the understated wittiness, Emma is my favourite because it's the most high-spirited I think, but Northanger Abbey is really funny, I'd recommend those to first-timers

I heard INTJ all the time lol, not sure why

Really love the Ang Lee adaption of Sense and Sensibility, the book is my least favourite of them all though, could honestly watch that film every day until I DIE

(I think another ESFJ and INTJ combination here






and of course:







> And yes, sort of what @*Nissa Nissa* said about moist, and how there's an aversion to that word. I actually never was bothered by moist myself haha, but something about "juice" in this context does. It makes me conjure up images from the movie, The Fly.





> Yeah, Beta does seem like a stretch, but she sometimes seems more Intuitive to me. All I can say for sure is she's Fe-valuing, but Alpha SF probably is right. I'll mull over SEI, and yeah, she's always seemed pretty Introverted to me too.


Hm, she doesn't seem all that Intuitive to me
There's a pop music review guy who's videos he watched and he pointed out that Taylor always writes about her own experiences, what she's very good at is recording literally what's happening to her (and channeling that into an artistic and relatable way), she's really effective when her songs are telling details about her life (sitting in my room on a Tuesday night listening to the kind of music she doesn't like, there's something about the street looks when it's just rained, that kind of thing) and less effective when she's being general and unspecific (but I keep grooving, can't stop won't stop moving), which she's doing more and more lately, maybe because she's less 'country' and more 'pop' or because she's too much in the public eye to really talk about experiences

Anyways thought that made so much sense, she's really good at lyrically conveying like, driving in the rain in a small town and her feelings, not as good at conveying...conceptual things, doesn't feel like she really wants to, think Si+Fe really works best

Her 'goofiness' really comes off Ne seeking to me too?



> It's boring. This clip I think is a good example of how Social is preferred over Sexual for Daisy:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [video=y
> 
> [QUOTE]Was listening to it again today because of this convo, and I think these songs are sx, with the obsessions, the rush, possession, etc., and is sx without being sexual. I'm actually wondering if she's sx/so?? Seems like Social isn't as important when she brings it up in these songs, like in Louvre when she says she forgets her friendships...It's weird how I always see people type her as so/sp too. Sober also goes with your idea of "liquor" being sx too.  Also Beyonce's Drunk in Love.
> 
> 
> * *



* *






Hm, not sure
Royals the song really came off so/sp, hated that song so much lol 
listening to these and not sure what to make of them



> What is Regency Soc? Is this an Enneagram concept I'm not familiar with? :shocked:


Apparently? It's just one of those sub-theory kind of things

There's Regency, Parliamentary, and Imperial Soc...it's about how...power/opinion? gets distributed, so Parliamentary Soc tends to divide things equally, everyone gets an equal voice, it's more mellow and kind of 'typical' soc, the idea is that everything gets equal representation so like SJW mindset is sort-of Parliamentary mindset, also Puritans, then Imperial Soc is 'power flows downwards', like Fidel Castro or Donald Trump-ish, very clear hierarchy, social that consists of a number of groups that occupy a distinct place, focus is more about maximum effect than equal distribution. Regency Soc has a split between equal distribution and ultimate power, both systems are in place, so it's focused on finding and defining a place in the system, people have to prove their worth like in the Parliamentary system but there's an ultimate authority understood and people want to define themselves by how well they conform to that, like in Imperial Soc...so Jane Austen novels are very Regency Soc if I understand it properly, because it's really a lot about if people are behaving properly, and what that even means.


* *




I just meant that Jane Austen was writing in the Regency period and I don't share those same cultural touchpoints and such so I might not relate to the things Elizabeth reacts to






ElectricSlime said:


> Well you've read C&P yeah ? Remember Marmeladov's first scene at a tavern with Raskolnikov where he goes on and on for like 15-20 pages ? It's representative enough


Best part of the book, everyone agrees 



> I do enjoy some of your anecdotes and even find them endearing, but it does muddle with things when you're trying to use them as a source of insight into cognition. Some associations do tickle my composure a bit, like a teacher who erases the board and misses one.tiny.fucking.bit and won't erase it afterwards. Drives you crazy and makes you want to fix it yourself. But still, don't let it get to you too much yeah? It's mostly frustrating seeing things go in circles so much from the outside, especially when the desire to help _is_ there. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=6140" target="_blank">Paradigm</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> was rather harsh about things but I do agree with several points she brought up.


Well, thank you I guess

_____________

~I shall endeavour to be more entertaining and less long-winded~


----------



## Darkbloom

owlet said:


> Vixey, with dimensionality, you're generalising between things like '3D Si' which is made up of two categories, the valued and the unvalued, which dictates a certain response to the function (i.e. Si PoLR is generally feeling very uncomfortable and even irritable towards signs of it as it's unvalued and only based in experience).


But we talk about valued/unvalued all the time uffer:

I mean...maybe one of the issues is that I don't usually go from the beginning in my posts, if that makes sense, I guess I think people know me or that they at least read all of the posts I posted that day and day before and not just one or two, it's not my conscious expectation or demand, it's just how I tend to think. Just trying to make sense of how my posts came across to you, not implying my way is reasonable :laughing:

We should let this go, if you ever think my post lacks some important detail or I'm not focusing enough on something feel free to ask questions if you want to, don't think we'll ever agree on this particular issue because I still simply don't understand how my posts came across as completely lacking self-analysis, ignoring valued/unvalued, dimensionality and such, I think most of those things are present in my posts, probably more easily detectable to people who think in similar ways, I could be misunderstanding your posts in the same way. We're just repeating ourselves at this point.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Vixey

Imagining you as SEE isn’t particularly a stretch, considering my sister whom I type as SEE does have an interest in what I consider Si things and is quite leisurely compared to Gammas I know, although she hardly tries to make sensations pleasing for everyone and is always trying to tip the scale her way through emotional manipulation, ordering weaker willed people around and throwing tantrums to paint herself as the victim. Not saying that’s what you do, but I felt like developing on her negative traits *whistles* She’s more vindictive than I am too, Gamma shit I suppose.

The thing is, you seemed so adamant about valuing Fe, so it comes across as surprising for you to bring those possibilities out of the blue. If you were SEE, that would mean that ILI, a Fe PoLR type, is your dual. What do you make of that ?


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> Ahh interesting! I doubt myself and others a lot, so have to look all around the decision before making it, and even then....How do you mean overly-reliant?
> Definitely a good point! Assertiveness and lack of it really affects how you come across and how you react (Im also not very good at being assertive because of being unsure where the line is - how far can I go before I become unreasonable)
> Haha thats good to know! I was very unreasonable and angry!
> They're great, very funny and nicely drawn!


By overly reliant I meant probably getting too attached, relying on them for company, and expecting them to be committed in return.
It actually seems to sensible to doubt things to some extent, not believe everything you hear or the reliability of info someone has given. That's why I wouldn't say I rely and trust other people for guidance over myself. 

Yeah I think I can relate to that, if you mean being unsure of where the line is in terms of boundaries. I can't tell if someone is actually overstepping my boundaries or if i'm just...being myself xD i'm pretty reluctant to open up in general, so it often feels like someone is crossing the line even when they aren't.



> What do you find hard with 5 and 3? Yeah 9 is very stereotypically sp and si!
> Hmm do you get the unhealthy traits of 7 or 1 more?
> Interesting! what about 2?


Well with 3 I understand it's part of the image triad so they aim to project a certain image of themselves, but i'm not sure about the motivations etc. 5 I don't really understand much, it's just described as the "cerebral" type, and that's confusing when any type can have an intellectual interest. don't understand what 5 is about really

Don't relate to unhealthy 7s, which is basically becoming impulsive 
Unhealthy 1 is somewhat like me I a guess, becoming self righteous, tolerant, inflexible etc. Unhealthy 4s are actually most like me (including the addictions) out of the three types. Apparently 1s under stress become more like unhealthy 4s, so makes sense maybe?

have you noticed possible integration patterns yourself? 

what do I relate to about 2? Mostly things like taking pride in goodness and helpfulness, wanting an "image" which you can take pride in, rather than successful (3s) or unique (4s) 



> Hmm I can try, I find questionnaires tend to be awkward for me (never the right options in there) Hmm maybe! That sounds sensible to me, but Im not 100% on wings. I think some people say there's being biwingal or something? Both wings equally there etc.
> Ah cool thanks!! Have you looked into triads as well?


Yeah biwingal is a thing, I've seen it being called "balanced".
I looked into the basic head/heart/gut traids but didn't look into the others as I already self typed myself.
Ah with questionnaires there is no right answer, you just describe your train of thought or what comes to mind. You might have a preferable questionnaire. i've seen ones that I didn't like that much on the socionics forum for example.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@mistakenforstranger

P&P seems like the quintessential chick book, all females on Reddit love it, especially the feminists apparently (Fi focus? :smug

And saying I’m Beta is nice and all, but like everyone else here you fail to make a concrete type suggestion :angry:

And the fuck is regency SO ? From whose ass does it come from ? Is it the midrange/fireside/ascetic subvariant thingies ?


----------



## Paradigm

...I see yesterday was forgotten about.



Vixey said:


> Everything I say being called irrelevant by people who don't even read my posts doesn't help at all.
> If you don't bother to actually read and think about my posts, then _please_ refrain from responding to me in the future.


I get the feeling this is a comment towards me, so... Let's be clear, I wasn't talking to or even about you originally  Unless you and @Nissa Nissa are the same person, which would be weird. If I was talking to or about you, specifically, at that time, I would have used more tact. But I wasn't.



> a)feel like sharing it, think it could useful at some point once I gather enough info, I often go back and quote my own posts and elaborate-that's just my thinking process, sorry
> b)want to start a conversation that might lead to remembering more potentially relevant things


You are not the first to be informed: *this isn't isn't a conversation, type the characters, or venting thread.* If you want to "start a conversation" then do that somewhere else and bring the relevant information here once you've talked your way through it or whatever. Or do some thinking before you post instead of pouring everything out at once, but that's not your "thought process" so that seems unlikely to happen. 
@Nissa Nissa, this is to you, too.

I'm being blunt about this because, silly me, I thought you left the thread after saying you would.


----------



## Wisteria

Vixey said:


> The wording doesn't sound like me
> I don't have this...idk pleasant sensations, I don't call them pleasant sensations and they are somewhat separate from positive environment even though obviously having food is good whatever you're doing and environment can be a pleasant sensation, but I tend to focus on those things separately.


Yeah I made a really generalised statement. Another way of thinking of it is if the everyone is generally in low mood of some sort or not really enjoying themselves in the occasion, so in order to lift the mood you can provide pleasantries like food, alcohol, music, etc. anything in the environment. It depends on the situation as well.



Vixey said:


> I joke with people who joke I guess, as a child I'd joke and playfully insult but also genuinely be a bit...rough I guess, with my dad, he's a LII and he definitely can take a joke, or one childhood friend (not sure of her type), but here for example I think I rarely or never joke with people in teasing way.


Here on perC? Neither do I really 



> Thank you, and I'm still trying to think of responses to Ne part of the long questionnaire each:
> ___________________


Aw np  Don't worry about making good responses, better to just answer it more naturally. If you're struggling or the answers are short that could still indicate the dimensionality. 

also the revised 40Q on the socionics forum are better than the 80Q, and less time consuming.



owlet said:


> The issue with the example is that there are a ton of reasons for someone wearing pajamas - it's not necessarily linked to any function (you could perhaps break it down, but the vast majority of people do enjoy comfort. The most telling thing is if someone doesn't value this above other things and doesn't pursue it in a more complex way, as wearing pajamas is very simplistic, almost stereotypical comfort).


Wearing Pjs does seem kinda Si though? I can't see any reasons for Se and wearing them. It's very much a social norm though and doesn't indicate strong Si. Still think it's an Si thing to do, it fits the definition of the function lol.



Vixey said:


> Always relate to 1D Fe a bit
> (I mean I understand why they are telling it but don't know how to react and not sound fake)
> Talked about being terrified of being IxTx or something
> 
> Maybe I'm your dual Nissa! :words:





Vixey said:


> It doesn't have _ fixed it for you)
> 
> And that would be :fall:


uhh you're definitely not Fe PoLR :laughing:


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> @Vixey
> 
> Imagining you as SEE isn’t particularly a stretch, considering my sister whom I type as SEE does have an interest in what I consider Si things and is quite leisurely compared to Gammas I know, although she hardly tries to make sensations pleasing for everyone and is always trying to tip the scale her way through emotional manipulation, ordering weaker willed people around and throwing tantrums to paint herself as the victim. Not saying that’s what you do, but I felt like developing on her negative traits *whistles* She’s more vindictive than I am too, Gamma shit I suppose.


In what way do I try to give everyone pleasing sensations? :frustrating:

Tbh I think you misunderstood that one thing I said, think it was about someone looking like they're cold and I used this face --> :concern:
I wasn't that concerned, I just sometimes remember that face and feel the need to find an opportunity to use it 

I mean I like to buy shower gels, candles, candy and such for people but it's partly because I just love buying things, something about the feeling of transaction, I like picking things out, then obviously giving it to them, etc. but it's not focused on pleasant sensations.



> The thing is, you seemed so adamant about valuing Fe, so it comes across as surprising for you to bring those possibilities out of the blue. If you were SEE, that would mean that ILI, a Fe PoLR type, is your dual. What do you make of that ?


But I don't know if I know what Fe is uffer:

I think I'm not Fi because I don't care much about morals and right and wrong or at least don't look at them rigidly, talked about how everyone can be my friend if they are my friend, etc. 
Not sure if my Fe would get in the way with an ILI, I don't know how to tell, never met one irl 
Do you have something that could help clarify it?


----------



## Daeva

Nissa Nissa said:


> (This thread/forum is moving so slowly, someone needs to start fighting :frustrating


_Ask and the universe will provide._


----------



## Darkbloom

@Paradigm No :tongue:
Who said they are leaving? Not going anywhere, never said I was going anywhere, I'll keep posting wherever the hell I want


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> It doesn't have _ fixed it for you)
> 
> 
> And that would be :fall:
> They are constantly somewhere at the back of my mind, your subtypes too
> 
> 
> Feeling water-y lately, used to see water differently (not sure what changed)


Thank you!
Wanted to make collages, guess they turned out very obvious
Was going to do air and earth too but it's taking a lot of time and not turning out super well, plus idk if my employer's monitoring my Internet and I keep searching 'sexy ---' to try to make decent sx collage, gonna make me seem like some sort of huge pervert


* *





Water










(weird to include Nicki Minaj lol, just this video was best thing I could think of)

Fire


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa love these, especially the second one :lovekitty:

(I'll try to make something later too!)


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> I'm being blunt about this because, silly me, I thought you left the thread after saying you would.



* *



















Daeva said:


> _Ask and the universe will provide._


roud:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> And the fuck is regency SO ? From whose ass does it come from ? Is it the midrange/fireside/ascetic subvariant thingies ?


mine lol, I only meant 'the social customs of the Regency period' but I wanted to be annoying about the misunderstanding)


----------



## Paradigm

Vixey said:


> @Paradigm No :tongue:
> Who said they are leaving? Not going anywhere, never said I was going anywhere, I'll keep posting wherever the hell I want


Your memory seems worse than mine. You literally said this ~8 hours before that post _about the topic_ I quoted:



Vixey said:


> Good night, no one expect no other responses regarding this topic from me ever again
> :sleepytime:


----------



## Darkbloom

The thing is don't think I'm that 'overwhelming Fe no matter what' person, don't think I'd overwhelm an ILI with Fe and I don't think I'd be bothered by their lack of Fe if we were close, I wouldn't feel the need to bring Fe to them, group Fe at least, and would be good for me to have someone to xxTJ discipline me, always looked for that in a way, not sure what that means.


----------



## Darkbloom

Paradigm said:


> Your memory seems worse than mine. You literally said this ~8 hours before that post _about the topic_ I quoted:


Nooo, wasn't talking about leaving the entire thread, just this conversation!
That I'm for some reason still leading :frustrating:

Honestly let's not get this thread closed again, it's silly.


----------



## Darkbloom

Having a deja vu, feel like this _exact_ same thing happened before, can't tell if it actually did or not :frustrating:


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Vixey said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* I guess intimacy being So is like...closeness is universal but there are many people who type as sx because they care about close friendships, don't like superficial relationships, want intimacy, one-on-one and such but it doesn't have to be sexual at all and I don't think sx has to me intimate in like...idk think it is always intimate in a way but not in typical way, 'intimacy' sounds a bit naive to me or pure or something I guess, but there's an aspect of it, just has to be done in sx way, also don't think it's quite about vulnerability, it's a separate thing, but there can be this...dripping of vulnerability in a way.
> Wish I could explain it better.


Yeah, when I say "intimacy", I don't mean like just coupling, which maybe is the image that gives off to you and others perhaps, like you see William and Kate being couples, but it's not intimate. There's no "fire" between them, and they're probably both sx-last because of it too. Their relationship is very _formal_, showing the Social instinct at play. I'm thinking more like Angelina Jolie and Billy Bob Thornton's past relationship, where they wore vials of each other's blood, and she had his name tatooed on her arm. Just look those two up, and you'll see a sx-relationship (in an extreme way). I found this description in Gatsby, and it's more what I mean when I say intimate, but still doesn't completely grasp it, but it's that, I can't live without the "other" type of bond (complete merging/union) between self and another, whereas say sp is more self-sufficient/independent and aware of themselves as a separate entity a la Nick Carraway (The "I" in this example):

"They had forgotten me, but Daisy glanced up and held out her hand; Gatsby didn't know me now at all. I looked once more at them and they looked back at me, remotely, possessed by intense life. Then I went out of the room and down the marble steps into the rain, leaving them there together."

Also, love this description and think it speaks to sx too.

"There must have been moments even that afternoon when Daisy tumbled short of his dreams--not through her own fault, but because of the colossal vitality of his illusion. It had gone beyond her, beyond everything. He had thrown himself into it with a creative passion, adding to it all the time, decking it out with every bright feather that drifted his way. No amount of fire or freshness can challenge what a man will store up in his ghostly heart."

:lovekitty:

Billy Bob Thornton Explains Why Angelina Jolie Wanted to Wear a Vial of His Blood Around Her Neck | E! News

Yeah, as far as having close friends, do you _really_ think that makes one sx, especially if that's all it is? I'll give you an example since I came across it rather serendipitously last night. This is from throughtheroses, and I do see this as being sx in _the way_ she describes it, but then she also says she's never been in a romantic relationship, so why is it sx again? I mean, _doesn't everyone have a relationship to their best friend that is like this_?  In that sense, it doesn't strike me as being _that_ sx, and even seems like there's some Social here too with her awareness of how they perceived them both. Her best friend is also a 5, so I think that should be taken into account when also saying she's sp and isn't revelatory too. That's the part that confuses me about sx because when people who type as sx say they have intense relationships with hobbies or best friends (as opposed to significant others/lovers), I'm like, really, that's sx? :dry: In that case, anyone could potentially be sx, and do see a lot of people using that as justification for typing that way too, but maybe it is sx, and I'm just confused, but I'm wary of it nonetheless.



> I'm a 4w3 sx/sp, which mainly manifests in a strong need for emotional intimacy and a kind of possessiveness. The weird thing about me is that I've never been in a romantic relationship, so my sx instinct wouldn't be as obvious as many others'.
> 
> But the thing is... I'm basically a serial best friend (kind of like serial monogamist, all things considering). Throughout my whole life, even in childhood, I've had a habit of forming intense one-on-one attachments with people. I go everywhere with them, tell them everything, open up, we get really close... and then they're gone. We lose contact and I move on to the next friend. It's a bizarre pattern and I'm not sure why it keeps happening, but I don't see it as much different from people who find themselves in a sequence of romantic relationships. And I'm not particularly upset about this pattern either, although I do wish that more of my friends would stick around in the long term (thankfully I have my wonderful high school group and my best friend of all, @BelladonnaPoe , to fall back on).
> 
> I need that kind of intimacy, though, and subconsciously push for it. I get very attached and self-revealing and whatnot and expect the same from the other person--usually with great results. I've had so many fascinating conversations. But then, once all of that is out in the open, I'm alone again.
> 
> Also, @BelladonnaPoe will be able to attest to my sx/sp nature even coming out in our friendship. In high school, we were constantly bombarded by people who thought we were dating because we're just that close, more than people would expect from best friends. That was annoying, because I think everyone should be able to experience an extremely close friendship. Even now, we Skype constantly and tell each other everything. It's really wonderful! Even so, it's not necessarily in Bella's first nature (as an sp) to be so revelatory and borderline codependent, haha.
> 
> But anyway, back to my instinctual variant. I've known for awhile that I'm an sx type because I have very little self-awareness or social awareness, and I feel completely at ease in emotionally intimate, one-on-one situations. And I know that when I do eventually get into a romantic relationship... Well... Let's just say that Mr. Right has a lot coming.


Also, think your Si is high-dimensional when you described it pages before, so in that sense what I mean is, I think it's either 3D or 4D and those types with it, whether it's valued or not. Low dimensional functions are 1D and 2D.



> (and see, dripping, keeps popping into my mind, seems like I do associate sx with wet and juicy I guess , hate those words in context of food though)


Yeah, I don't really, but something like Gollum in that example I gave before of him saying, "Give it to us raw and wriggling" haha is "wet". He had a pretty sx relationship (which again, wasn't sexual/romantic, but was very inseparable, obsessive, and possessive) with that ring, don't you think? _Myyyyy precioussssssss_



Nissa Nissa said:


> :lovekitty:
> 
> I want to make a system with like water sx fire sx air sx and earth sx, water so fire so air so and earth so, same for sp
> 
> really like elements haha


:i:

All I can respond to atm.


----------



## Paradigm

Vixey said:


> Nooo, wasn't talking about leaving the entire thread, just this conversation!
> That I'm for some reason still leading :frustrating:
> Honestly let's not get this thread closed again, it's silly.


Just because something was posted 12 hours ago doesn't mean no one can reply to it, especially if it was a continuation of the topic (that _you_ initiated after saying you wouldn't). You usually stay on topic more than Nissa, which is why I didn't direct my initial post towards you. But you're also arguably her biggest enabler, which is why I was hoping you would pick up your conversation with her elsewhere, and am disappointed to see it continuing. If it hadn't continued, then I wouldn't have brought it up.



Vixey said:


> Having a deja vu, feel like this _exact_ same thing happened before, can't tell if it actually did or not :frustrating:


In semi-recent history, I recall telling @ElectricSlime this wasn't a chatroom (or something like), which he largely respected, and @Animal (retired, apparently) that this wasn't the place to type characters, which she also respected and made a new thread for and people were nice enough to use that for a bit. 
It's happened before that, but I'm pretty sure it was others saying it.

I've already explained why it's problematic to do that in this thread. Like I said, you're not the first to be told, but you _might _be the first to keep going after hearing the complaints and preferences of several people yesterday. Making a new thread isn't a bad thing at all, it allows others can more find the topic if they're interested in it. If you don't want others to read or respond to your "conversation," then have it privately. Otherwise, at this point, you're being intentionally disrespectful of everyone else except Nissa and, arguably, @mistakenforstranger (who uses this thread for character typing, too, but seems more theory-heavy at times).



Nissa Nissa said:


> * *


So... How are these "responses" of yours _not _baiting? Especially since I'm almost positive you remember I dislike gifs, and this is _literally_ a teenage attempt at giving me the middle finger? (Because, yes, I have watched Friends.)
Hint: The middle finger isn't any less rude or more mature than saying "fuck you" again.


----------



## Darkbloom

Paradigm said:


> But you're also arguably her biggest enabler, which is why I was hoping you would pick up your conversation with her elsewhere, and am disappointed to see it continuing. If it hadn't continued, then I wouldn't have brought it up.


Cuz she's more fun than you, what can I do :ball:


I'm even more disappointed that you're still here :dry:


----------



## Paradigm

Vixey said:


> Cuz she's more fun than you, what can I do :ball:


Have some self-restraint and maturity and talk to her elsewhere, rather than invade very public thread that isn't supposed to revolve around two people?
Just a crazy thought.



> I'm even more disappointed that you're still here :dry:


Same to you, if we're going down the insult route.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

I lied (about not responding).



ElectricSlime said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> P&P seems like the quintessential chick book, all females on Reddit love it, especially the feminists apparently (Fi focus? :smug


It is.


> And saying I’m Beta is nice and all, but like everyone else here you fail to make a concrete type suggestion :angry:


Well, I don't see why ILE doesn't fit for you from a purely functional standpoint, and don't really question it on that basis, but you don't seem Alpha quadra (on the whole), and maybe I don't have a grasp of Alpha quadra beyond stereotypes. I don't see you being EIE, though, because you don't seem 1D Ti. Look up SheWolf for an example of that lol (She was typing as EIE last time I checked, but who knows if she is now...and she doesn't really post on here anymore). Why not IEI, though? I mean, I've been open to it for you, even if it doesn't feel particularly right (I mean, 4D Fi and 1D Se??), but you seem drawn to those IEI writers, in particular, but maybe you just have good taste. Kurt Cobain probably isn't the best example to compare yourself to, being he's probably MBTI INFP, Type 4, and wasn't the healthiest either. I don't particularly relate to him myself either, and I'm a 4 too! Why would an MBTI ENTP (assuming that you are, and you seem confident in it) be an IEI, though? Seems like a stretch, and I can't see SLE or LSI, because you're not a Sensor. My only problem with ILE is are you open to every possibility, like Ne tends to be? You like to shut things down when things get a bit too Ne around here lol, which maybe is a sign of Ne-Ignoring, but I could see higher Ti wanting to do that too. 
So overall, I do lean towards ILE-Ti subtype as my concrete (What is this concreteness you speak of? :shocked suggestion, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.  



> And the fuck is regency SO ? From whose ass does it come from ? Is it the midrange/fireside/ascetic subvariant thingies ?


That's what I thought it was referring to too. That subvariant crap stinks and is total BS! (@Nissa Nissa gets my reference hopefully...)


* *




Pretty much the definition of "reactive" type here lol.


----------



## Paradigm

mp2 said:


> Because my Te isn't based solely on personal experience or trial and error. So, I think I either have role Te or ignoring Te, but it's very hard to tell for sure.


I can see that. I find dimensionality to be a bit questionable to type by, partly because I'm not well-versed in it (or Socionics terminology in general), but also because it seems like it's easy to over- or under-estimate one's "ability" at a function. 

What are your thoughts on your inferior/suggestive function? Ti would be ESE's, and Ne would be SEI's. (I'm just wondering without dimensions involved for a couple moments, if that's alright.) I have a friend who I was really confused between those two types, but ended up typing her at SEI due to the way she displays Ne - it's almost always engaged in a very catastrophic manner. I will admit that a big drawback of this method is anxiety can look like lower Ne, so it might be hard to answer.



> Yes, I am clinically anxious, with social anxiety. This does make it difficult to find my type, but it's not _that_ difficult and it gets easier the more I learn about the theory.
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think social anxiety is why I keep thinking I'm an introvert and why I keep thinking I'm an N type. Because it's been a life long thing, I've always been more inclined to avoid people and isolate myself. My upbringing helped with this though because I was always home alone starting from age 8 or so. So, I would just spend my time teaching myself math and programming and learning about physics and astronomy, along with also spending an equal amount of time watching movies, reading fiction, playing video games, and watching TV.
> 
> So, now, social anxiety is really the only thing that remains even though I've been diagnosed with psychotic depression and generalized anxiety disorder, among other things. Those were more or less cured, though. They pop up once in a while(typically in self-inflicted forms like hangovers or ignoring things for too long) but all the treatment I got for everything over the past 18 years has pretty much helped and those things aren't a problem anymore. Though, I probably do need to go back to a professional to manage the remaining social anxiety, but I also could just treat it on my own through books and the internet, but I'm probably too lazy to actually do that :blushed: Plus, part of the social anxiety may just stem from the fact that I intentionally isolate myself and always have. So, it could be due more to a lack of practice in social interaction than anything else :thinking2:
> 
> Though it is to a point where it could be avoidant personality disorder (though this was only diagnosed by one professional and I'm not sure if I really agree with her. She didn't appear to be the brightest professional...), but either way it's extreme social anxiety where I really have to make an effort to go to a grocery store and I'm terrified the whole time I'm in the grocery store or any other public place or basic interaction with another human and all that.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I think I actually am an ESE that's mistyping as an XII, and why I've adapted to behave as an XII over a long period of time.


Happy to hear your other problems have been helped/cured! 

That thinking makes sense. I wondered about similar for myself with a few things (wing, instinct stacking, very briefly E/I dichotomy, probably others), and how it relates to my past. Took a while >__< You pretty much seem to be considering the same concerns anxiety and such can have in typing, so that's really good.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Cuz she's more fun than you, what can I do :ball:
> 
> 
> I'm even more disappointed that you're still here :dry:


This is getting childish, please don’t add fuel to the fire~

(Yes that’s cheeky coming from me, but you guys should do as I say, not as I do :wink


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> This is getting childish, please don’t add fuel to the fire~
> 
> (Yes that’s cheeky coming from me, but you guys should do as I say, not as I do :wink


Saw new notifications and your name, thought I was about to see a fun post 



I'm not planning on engaging her anymore, sick of this, regret not pretending she doesn't exist right from that first useless, condescending post, however I am not going anywhere, threads are made for posting, anyone can join at any time, that's a nice thing about threads and it's even better when they are actually moving 
(I think I'm Fe :tongue: )


----------



## owlet

Vixey said:


> I'm not planning on engaging her anymore, sick of this, regret not pretending she doesn't exist right from that first useless, condescending post, however I am not going anywhere, threads are made for posting, anyone can join at any time, that's a nice thing about threads and it's even better when they are actually moving


Just keep the rules in mind:


> 6. Post With Quality In Mind
> *Chitchat and goofing around is welcome. However, please try to restrict this to the appropriate threads and subforums*, and do not bombard users who do not wish to participate. No nudity (drawn or otherwise) is acceptable on this forum. Moderators at their discretion can also draw lines with graphic depictions of violence or other material deemed too extreme for the tone of this forum. Creating threads and/or posts that break these rules could be moved to the Spam subforum or another appropriate location, edited at the moderators’ discretion, and/or lead to disciplinary action.


Also quit the personal attacks.


----------



## Darkbloom

owlet said:


> Just keep the rules in mind:
> 
> 
> Also quit the personal attacks.


Everyone knows the rules owlet, we've been through this thousands of times :frustrating:


----------



## owlet

Vixey said:


> Everyone knows the rules owlet, we've been through this thousands of times :frustrating:


Okay, but you've been making personal attacks, which is against the rules. If you get frustrated in a discussion, just walk away without making those attacks. That's the last I'll say on it.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Saw new notifications and your name, thought I was about to see a fun post
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not planning on engaging her anymore, sick of this, regret not pretending she doesn't exist right from that first useless, condescending post, however I am not going anywhere, threads are made for posting, anyone can join at any time, that's a nice thing about threads and it's even better when they are actually moving
> (I think I'm Fe :tongue: )


Well I don’t have anything against you having a conflict per se, it’s simply that it’s been exhausted by now imo and Paradigm did try to calm things, so reigniting is unnecessary. So yeah.



Vixey said:


> Everyone knows the rules owlet, we've been through this thousands of times :frustrating:


Fookin Serious types with cat pictures, I swear.


----------



## Paradigm

owlet said:


> Okay, but you've been making personal attacks, which is against the rules. If you get frustrated in a discussion, just walk away without making those attacks. That's the last I'll say on it.


Your last post implying there's more than one rule being broken was more accurate, as this one implies you're referencing only the personal attacks, but it seems the rules are considered more suggestions to most anymore. Which would be fine if all people could moderate themselves, but...
(Sorry, kind of.)


----------



## Dangerose

Paradigm said:


> So... How are these "responses" of yours _not _baiting?














> Especially since I'm almost positive you remember I dislike gifs














> and this is _literally_ a teenage attempt at giving me the middle finger?














> (Because, yes, I have watched Friends.)














> Hint: The middle finger isn't any less rude or more mature than saying "fuck you" again.


----------



## owlet

* *






Nissa Nissa said:


>





Good grief, please can you quit it. Just walk away for a while and calm down.

ETA: Here you can find the PerC rules. You guys are breaking them (in the case of this post, trolling).


----------



## Paradigm

Nissa Nissa said:


> * *


So mature. Much wow. I see your apology was exactly as fake as I suspected. And why do you guys keep acting like you're twins? 

Since trying to address your replies like an adult hasn't worked:
@Coburn, @Maybe, can you address the personal attacks, please? My first post may have been insensitive, even worthy of an infraction if you want, but they've outnumbered that about 3x by now and refuse to settle it without insults or baiting/trolling, among other lesser things.


----------



## Maybe

This is number 8. Come on people. Keep the insults and gripes to yourselfs. Use the ignore list people love to forget about.

As for now happy music.


----------



## Maybe

Reopened.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> By overly reliant I meant probably getting too attached, relying on them for company, and expecting them to be committed in return.
> It actually seems to sensible to doubt things to some extent, not believe everything you hear or the reliability of info someone has given. That's why I wouldn't say I rely and trust other people for guidance over myself.
> 
> Yeah I think I can relate to that, if you mean being unsure of where the line is in terms of boundaries. I can't tell if someone is actually overstepping my boundaries or if i'm just...being myself xD i'm pretty reluctant to open up in general, so it often feels like someone is crossing the line even when they aren't.


Sorry for the slow reply (I was replying then the thread closed)

Ah that makes sense! Do you know why you expect commitment in return? I agree, distrust can be sensible! Im not very trusting of most things, or at least am sceptical generally - it can be useful to have input but good to judge that input yourself.
Yeah thats my problem too, is me too much? 





> Well with 3 I understand it's part of the image triad so they aim to project a certain image of themselves, but i'm not sure about the motivations etc. 5 I don't really understand much, it's just described as the "cerebral" type, and that's confusing when any type can have an intellectual interest. don't understand what 5 is about really
> 
> Don't relate to unhealthy 7s, which is basically becoming impulsive
> Unhealthy 1 is somewhat like me I a guess, becoming self righteous, tolerant, inflexible etc. Unhealthy 4s are actually most like me (including the addictions) out of the three types. Apparently 1s under stress become more like unhealthy 4s, so makes sense maybe?


Well 3 seems to be about needing to feel like they achieve/dont fail in order to be loved i.e. failure is their fear. 5 is wanting competency to survive alone/autonomously, so they fear being incompetent - however with 5 I find it hard to distinguish from 8 in that regard! They both want autonomy but 8 uses anger to get it and 5 uses accumulating knowledge.



> have you noticed possible integration patterns yourself?
> 
> what do I relate to about 2? Mostly things like taking pride in goodness and helpfulness, wanting an "image" which you can take pride in, rather than successful (3s) or unique (4s)
> 
> Yeah biwingal is a thing, I've seen it being called "balanced".
> I looked into the basic head/heart/gut traids but didn't look into the others as I already self typed myself.
> Ah with questionnaires there is no right answer, you just describe your train of thought or what comes to mind. You might have a preferable questionnaire. i've seen ones that I didn't like that much on the socionics forum for example.


I'm unsure. I looked at 5 and 1 because of their motivations and their paths as well. 
5 integrates to 8 and disintegrates to 7, whereas 1 integrates to 7 and disintegrates to 4. I consider all of those types I relate to in a strong way, which makes me think the paths might be part of it. I think I'm more like 7 when stressed (scattered, fear of being trapped, wanting to flit around etc) so feel it could be more of a disintegration path, and am more like a healthy 8 when happy (confident, guiding, autonomous, protecting etc) so maybe integration. Also, I can be like an unhealthy 4 when stressed (depressive, melancholy, envious etc) so could be a disintegration path there - but I dont think Im like a 7 when happy? Maybe I am...Im unsure. (However everyone hates the idea Im a 5 which makes me laugh because it could be the case, just an odd 5)
You?

Thats interesting with 2 - do you feel you need to serve and be good etc to be loved?

Ah yeah balanced! 
Hmm I can try, did you do questionnaires recently?


----------



## iamblue

I don’t know why people need to ask what their types are... I did the test to figure it out (and the description was so accurate.) In my opinion, Enneagram is more than the main type, and it’s better if you know your own composition of all 9 types.


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> Sorry for the slow reply (I was replying then the thread closed)
> 
> Ah that makes sense! Do you know why you expect commitment in return? I agree, distrust can be sensible! Im not very trusting of most things, or at least am sceptical generally - it can be useful to have input but good to judge that input yourself.
> Yeah thats my problem too, is me too much?


the thread closed when you started your reply? Rip post :/
No one has posted in this thread ever since it re-opened imao. Maybe everyone wanted to discuss socionics after all.

I'm not sure really, must be how I am. Everyone seems to be different with commitments in relationships, people treat them more casually but I don't. I'm more into one to one conversations too. Maybe I don't want things to be temporary? Find it bizarre that some people say they have commitment issues, go for one night stands instead of relationships, etc. Some people I know are actually like that 

Could be 6 related I guess, like wanting to trust someone completely.



> Well 3 seems to be about needing to feel like they achieve/dont fail in order to be loved i.e. failure is their fear. 5 is wanting competency to survive alone/autonomously, so they fear being incompetent - however with 5 I find it hard to distinguish from 8 in that regard! They both want autonomy but 8 uses anger to get it and 5 uses accumulating knowledge.


I can relate to that about too, using an area of expertise to be competent (to get a decent job and have useful knowledge mostly)
Better to look at the core fears distinguishing 5 and 8 maybe? 



> I'm unsure. I looked at 5 and 1 because of their motivations and their paths as well.
> 5 integrates to 8 and disintegrates to 7, whereas 1 integrates to 7 and disintegrates to 4. I consider all of those types I relate to in a strong way, which makes me think the paths might be part of it. I think I'm more like 7 when stressed (scattered, fear of being trapped, wanting to flit around etc) so feel it could be more of a disintegration path, and am more like a healthy 8 when happy (confident, guiding, autonomous, protecting etc) so maybe integration. Also, I can be like an unhealthy 4 when stressed (depressive, melancholy, envious etc) so could be a disintegration path there - but I dont think Im like a 7 when happy? Maybe I am...Im unsure. (However everyone hates the idea Im a 5 which makes me laugh because it could be the case, just an odd 5)
> You?


Ah that's interesting. Maybe the triads could help you decide between those types. Are you considering 5/4? What reasons were there against you being 5? 



> Thats interesting with 2 - do you feel you need to serve and be good etc to be loved?


In a nutshell yes



> Hmm I can try, did you do questionnaires recently?


Yes, it's in the whats my enneagram type forum. More feedback would be good  I don't mind if you don't get round to it though, posted it a few weeks back now. 

It's a little chaotic lol. I wanted to be honest as possible so I answered the questions without a filter I guess. Kinda dislike how personal enneagram questionnaires are, but it did get to some helpful responses


----------



## Paradigm

Tad Cooper said:


> *am more like a healthy 8 when happy (confident, guiding, autonomous, protecting etc) so maybe integration. Also, I can be like an unhealthy 4 when stressed (depressive, melancholy, envious etc) so could be a disintegration path there* - but I dont think Im like a 7 when happy? Maybe I am...Im unsure. (However everyone hates the idea Im a 5 which makes me laugh because it could be the case, just an odd 5)


I hate to be the one to say it, but those descriptors could be used for _anyone_ in a healthy or unhealthy state. Confidence and such are general manifestations of mental healthiness, and depressive (and such) are manifestations of unhealthiness. Even I manifest those traits. It's also important to note that "acute" stress isn't the same as prolonged stress... Which I point out only because even I still conflate the two at times. Prolonged stress is what disintegration is trying to describe, but my original point of general traits being common stands. (For example: my entire pre-age-18 existence was prolonged stress, and I still acted nothing, or very little, like either a 3 or a 6w7. Whether that's because children can't/shouldn't be typed or because [dis]integration can be dodgy is up for debate. I can notice 3ish traits in me now if it's been prolonged, but I'm still more likely to be avoidant and mopey than vain and workaholic-y.)

I could say this to anyone/everyone considering type 5 (or 1, as it were), but you're the only one around at the moment :laughing:

Did you talk about why 7 isn't probable for you? I apologize if you did, but could you link the post?



Wisteria said:


> the thread closed when you started your reply? Rip post :/
> No one has posted in this thread ever since it re-opened imao. Maybe everyone wanted to discuss socionics after all.


For me it was mostly an apparent lack of people to attempt to help, though it was also part being busy during Easter weekend and part forgetting you guys were trying to have a conversation beforehand.


----------



## Wisteria

Ah I just thought people would come back to continue their own discussions


----------



## Paradigm

Wisteria said:


> Ah I just thought people would come back to continue their own discussions


Yeah, that does normally happen, but I find it rather... fitting how the topic of Socionics is in the Socionics subforum now, so it seems like an okay development IMO :laughing:

From your last post - Are you considering type 6 now?


----------



## Wisteria

Paradigm said:


> Yeah, that does normally happen, but I find it rather... fitting how the topic of Socionics is in the Socionics subforum now, so it seems like an okay development IMO :laughing:
> 
> From your last post - Are you considering type 6 now?


Yeah it seemed like socionics should have been being discussed there in the first place lol, because the forum was dead.

Yes I'm considering 6 now. Probably wouldn't have if Tad didn't ask about it


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Typing at 7 feels so strange somehow, but do feel like it represents the worst of me. So it should be my core, lol.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Remnants said:


> Typing at 7 feels so strange somehow, but do feel like it represents the worst of me. So it should be my core, lol.


Really ? Do you mind explaining why ?

This comes as a surprise  Why core 7 instead of say, 5 disintegrating at 7 ?


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> Really ? Do you mind explaining why ?
> 
> This comes as a surprise  Why core 7 instead of say, 5 disintegrating at 7 ?


Wondering the same thing.

Taking a guess that it might have something to do with, if I'm remembering this correctly, 5 being the type that people usually say is "fake news" for... INFP? That's what Remnants is right...?


----------



## Dangerose

Want to wait until @Remnants answers because I'm curious what she will say, but I've always been really fascinated by the idea of 7 for her (though I could see any of the head types)

For one thing I see some focus on wonder, and boredom and maybe things running out, remember you quoted something about a French fry once Remnants and it struck me as such a perfect 7 metaphor, I don't know if you relate to that above all things or anything but it stood out to me as something that made sense with you (though I'd associate you with more attractive foods)

and well really happy people are talking about it and hope to hear your reasons for it)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Well I too can have boredom issues, it’s just that with 7s it’s literally a restless race against time and they don’t seem to even see it as abnormal. At least that’s the impression I get from those I know, they always surround themselves with fun of some kind. From chilling on video games to getting wasted to going on a trip.
@Remnants doesn’t strike me as someone who is always after a distraction in the average health ranges, but maybe I don’t know her enough and I’m wrong.

Unless she read Naranjo who paints a rather different picture, I myself relate a lot to Naranjo’s 7. Then again I seem to have the issues of the whole head triad :wink: 

Curious~


----------



## Dangerose

(I'm always surrounded by fun of some kind, if I'm not I'll die )
(but I don't think I'm a 7, think it's more that I forgot how to be a human being, so not relevant but yeah)


----------



## heavydirtysoul

What about me, what about me? h:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Wisteria said:


> the thread closed when you started your reply? Rip post :/
> No one has posted in this thread ever since it re-opened imao. Maybe everyone wanted to discuss socionics after all.
> 
> I'm not sure really, must be how I am. Everyone seems to be different with commitments in relationships, people treat them more casually but I don't. I'm more into one to one conversations too. Maybe I don't want things to be temporary? Find it bizarre that some people say they have commitment issues, go for one night stands instead of relationships, etc. Some people I know are actually like that
> 
> Could be 6 related I guess, like wanting to trust someone completely.


Yeah, rip!! It went deathly quiet... (I was really busy with work, sorry!)
Is it wanting to have some strong sense of bonding rather than the really casual relationships people have, that can seem almost superficial? (If so I very much understand that - I have the casual ones at work, but have a few close friends I feel a bond with).



> I can relate to that about too, using an area of expertise to be competent (to get a decent job and have useful knowledge mostly)
> Better to look at the core fears distinguishing 5 and 8 maybe?
> 
> Ah that's interesting. Maybe the triads could help you decide between those types. Are you considering 5/4? What reasons were there against you being 5?
> 
> In a nutshell yes
> 
> Yes, it's in the whats my enneagram type forum. More feedback would be good  I don't mind if you don't get round to it though, posted it a few weeks back now.
> 
> It's a little chaotic lol. I wanted to be honest as possible so I answered the questions without a filter I guess. Kinda dislike how personal enneagram questionnaires are, but it did get to some helpful responses


Yeah, it makes sense! Why to get a decent job? Security? I tend to like to feel I know a lot and so can handle any situation (I over prepare for everything).
Good plan, I'll look into them! What are your thoughts on those two and how theyre different?
Triads are a bit confusing for me because of having to account for so many factors! If I was a 5 I think Id be 5w6, because of the 6ish influence. Reasons against me being a 5 were how I 'dont seem like a 5' from what I gathered. I'm not really sure, but whenever it was brought up people just went 'no'.
Awesome! Could you send me a link to it? (Im bad at finding posts/threads generally!)
That's good though, chaotic stuff is more prone to actually getting results!


----------



## Tad Cooper

Paradigm said:


> I hate to be the one to say it, but those descriptors could be used for _anyone_ in a healthy or unhealthy state. Confidence and such are general manifestations of mental healthiness, and depressive (and such) are manifestations of unhealthiness. Even I manifest those traits. It's also important to note that "acute" stress isn't the same as prolonged stress... Which I point out only because even I still conflate the two at times. Prolonged stress is what disintegration is trying to describe, but my original point of general traits being common stands. (For example: my entire pre-age-18 existence was prolonged stress, and I still acted nothing, or very little, like either a 3 or a 6w7. Whether that's because children can't/shouldn't be typed or because [dis]integration can be dodgy is up for debate. I can notice 3ish traits in me now if it's been prolonged, but I'm still more likely to be avoidant and mopey than vain and workaholic-y.)
> 
> I could say this to anyone/everyone considering type 5 (or 1, as it were), but you're the only one around at the moment :laughing:
> 
> Did you talk about why 7 isn't probable for you? I apologize if you did, but could you link the post?


No no don't worry, I do understand they can be general enough to fit anyone, it was just those were related to 8 in some ways. Confidence etc are major issues for me with the enneagram (I' quite under confident and unsure of myself with some things - talk to me about stuff I feel I know well and I'm very confident, but if I feel unsure of my knowledge I'm wary). 
Oh interesting, so chronic stress leads to disintegration? That's interesting! 
I never said 7 wasn't the right type, just that other types were fairly equal in likelihood for me - what sort of stuff would you like to know?
(Sorry for slow response, busy with work)


----------



## mp2

Hm, I've had _such_ a reaction to realizing I'm more 9w8 than 9w1 recently that it's almost overwhelming. It appears obvious to me now, but it was _so_ hidden from myself. I don't think it's been much of problem in other areas, but I can't believe I can be _so_ wrong about something concerning myself. Sure, I consider almost every MBTI and Socionics type for myself, but the thing is, I never really rule out any single type, completely, the way I did with 8. I score last on 8 with every Enneagram test, but now I'm realizing that it's not because I'm not 8 at all, it's simply because I hate my own 8.(accidental rhyme roud: ) It's so uncomfortable that I'm hiding it from myself, and I don't think I've ever done this with anything before, ever :blushed: 

Not only has reading about 9w8 and 8 in general struck such a nerve, but now I've realized the possibility that I'm actually an 8w9, just based on all the feels and reactions and what-not from learning more about 8. I probably am 9w8, and my reaction to 8 is most likely due to being a 9w8 that ignored obvious 8 influences that have been present throughout my life, but the fact that I all of a sudden can't completely rule out 8w9 and the fact that it appears to be the only other option outside of 9w8 is just so unexpected and strange, but compltely obvious at the same time that I can't believe I could be so stupid not to realize it :frustrating:


----------



## Dangerose

@mp2 curious what kinds of things you're talking about!


----------



## mp2

@Nissa Nissa

It’s mostly through comparing 8 and 1 and learning more about 9w8 in general. I think before I really didn’t understand it as much and overlooked it. My behavior is just so different from 8’s I’ve met that this also led me to believe I couldn’t have an 8 wing, though I think I have just been underestimating how different 9w8s can be from 8w9s because my 8-ness appears to remain hidden over 80% of the time :ninja: 

For the most part, the 8 wing appears more apparent in the way I mostly use 8 to fight against 8-ness and deny the existence of any 8 influence, with 8 energy rarely being directed or expressed outwards. 

But, in the general way that core fears do heavily involve a fear of being controlled and a fear of being vulnerable. That any anger is focused more on external sources rather than internal sources in a self-critical way(though this aspect of myself is apparent too, just to a lesser extent) This appears to be why I’m such a private person, because it’s always in the back of my mind that honesty/vulnerability is really putting myself at risk, and that these are things that could potentially be used against me  

That’s also why doing questionnaires or input on typing is always uncomfortable and exhausting :blushed: and something I always have to push myself to do because feedback seems like such an important/valuable part of the typing process. I don’t think this is something anyone close to me would really guess though, because it is so well hidden. 

So, this is a major thing I’ve been ignoring, because I don’t like to accept it. Also, just with general reactiveness based on this. The way I can become confrontational and openly angry at times. It was much more of the case when I was younger and is something that’s decreased as I’ve gotten older. It’s a trend that’s easy to follow over the course of my entire life, and it was just realizing that there was even a trend in the first place was the hard part. 

Conflicts are the most uncomfortable thing for me, nothing else really comes close, and I do go to great lengths to avoid them. I always try to pretend that anger doesn’t exist, that I’m incapable of feeling anger, but it’s more because it’s so uncomfortable. As a kid there were many times with neighborhood kids and kids in school that would bully me, and I would try to pretend it wasn’t a problem and wanted to let it go and try to ignore it. Then anger and resentment would fester without me realizing it, and eventually it’d get to a point where I’d explode and seek them out to start a fight with them. 

It was less extreme as I got older, but it was still more prevalent in my late teens and early 20’s. Where I was still always very friendly, easy-going, and too non-assertive, but would explode in reactions to perceived insults and lash out verbally. There were people at the time that knew me for years but thought I was incapable of this, and since then they’ve always joked about how terrifying it was 

So, when trying to type myself and looking at the 1 and 8 wings, these are things I completely ignore and forget to take into account. They don’t even occur to me :shocked: I’ve also read it’s more common for 9w8’s to ignore/deny anger than 9w1s, and it appears to be common for 9w8’s to mistype as 9w1’s for this reason, among others. 

I was at this point nearly a year ago when I typed as 9, starting to realize the 8 wing, but then got sidetracked with thinking I was either 4 or 5, and now that I’m sure I’m a 9 again(probably for good this time roud: ) I’m coming to the same conclusion in the same way I was starting to then. I wonder if that’s why I got sidetracked in the first place, because maybe it’s such a deep-seated thing I didn’t want to acknowledge and the only way to not acknowledge is to not acknowledge 9 at all :shocked: 

And it’s just weird to me how I can be so wrong about something that really seems so obvious, to a point where it took a while to even consider an 8 wing. It’s so new, that it’s still extremely uncomfortable to acknowledge. These are things that just scare me, in the way that these are core aspects of who I am, and also the fact that I can be so blind to core aspects of myself :ghost: 

It is interesting to think of the possibility of being 8w9, especially with how disintegration to 5 could make sense and that I may have grown to over-identify with a 9 wing over time. I’m pretty much 100% certain though that I’m not an 8 and am in fact a 9, but it’s just an interesting idea to explore nonetheless. :crazy: The main thing that makes an 8 wing appear off is my typical lack of assertiveness, and I’m not sure how assertiveness levels would vary between 9w8s and what the line would be between 9w8 and 9w1 in this regard, or even if there is a clear line in the first place. 

Also, some 9w8 descriptions appear to paint 9w8s as more of a dumb lug type  

I think a major issue with assertiveness though is that I’ve never been able to find the right goldilocks spot. I guess it’s because the extremes are easy, and I often go for what’s easy, but with assertiveness I can only be completely non-assertiveness, to a point of mute cowardice, or go overboard to a point of overreacting to anything and becoming too aggressive. So, between those two, I’m much happier with the former because all that really does it make life occasionally slightly inconvenient for myself but doesn’t hurt anyone else, while the other extreme has potential to make my life more difficult as well as the potential to hurt others. 

The perfect, middle of the road level of assertiveness should be easily achievable through hard work and what not, but the risk of going to the other extreme almost doesn’t appear to be worth the rewards of finding the right spot. So, it’s not something I really want to do all that much, which is becoming more apparent the older I get. Plus, the hard work aspect :bored: 

It is also eye opening and really refreshing, it’s a good feeling at the same time :fall: Understanding this feels like the first time since I’ve been interested in personality theory that I’m actually gaining insight into myself and understanding myself more, as a person, so it’s a really weird ambivalent feeling. Almost seems like a “be careful what you wish for” sort of thing with understanding myself more.

But now I’m just thinking how funny it would be, after all this, if I did turn out to be 9w1 :laughing:


----------



## nep2une

Anyone familiar with the Korean director Park Chan-wook? He's been compared to Tarantino before, mainly because his films also are very violent. I find some these quotes I've read from him to be either relatable (thematically, at least) or interesting or both.

























That last quote is from his film, Oldboy.

"Actually, I can't stand watching violent scenes in films; I avoid watching horror films. I don't tend to watch action films mainly because I find them boring, but I watch the films of David Cronenberg and Martin Scorsese, usually in a state close to having a heart attack. I'm a complete coward. I make violent films as a result of my sensitivity to violence - in other words, my fear of violence."

"Living without hate for people is almost impossible. There is nothing wrong with fantasizing about revenge. You can have that feeling. You just shouldn't act in it."

"In my opinion, all relationships between people have some sort of violence, and it is central."

"Sometimes you need these warm, human moments - something that feels close - to help things along."

"I guess I probably make violent films partly because I can't express my anger in my real life very well."

"You could say that evil is contagious in that we have this mesmerizing mentor in Uncle Charlie who comes into your life. Every person has a seed of evil inside them, and when you come across such a mesmerizing mentor, he is able to successfully turn it into a flower of evil."

"I'm not the kind of director who aims to send a message out."

"A priest encounters temptation every day, and some of that desire is very natural."

"Certain subjects may no longer be taboo in cinema. But there are ways to treat them that still create shock."

“When we are confronted with extreme situations, we forget about moral issues; we simply act and must then accept the consequences.”

“All of the characters in my films, they share one commonality. It doesn't matter whether they are good or bad, it doesn't matter whether they are smart or stupid, these characters all take responsibility for their own behavior. I'm much the same.”

“It is not possible for a person to be completely free of sin and be squeaky clean.”

“I don't think I've ever tried to make something happen that I've absolutely had to force. You know how they say: if you can't avoid it, enjoy it. For me, it's the other way around: if I can't enjoy it, I avoid it.”

I think he seems rather 9-ish in a way... but I could be wrong?


----------



## Dangerose

@mp2 thanks for the long explanation, nothing to add but it was interesting!


----------



## Paradigm

@mp2 compare yourself to those like @Coburn and @Brains. They're much more constrained in texts (might not be IRL, my 8w9 dad isn't!). You more easily fit the 9w8 + Ne archetype.

(People get to see me as the 6w7 rambling archetype in more private situations and occasionally on the forum, so no insult meant!)

Note: This is a shitty way to _type _people, but can narrow things down sometimes.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> @mp2 compare yourself to those like @Coburn and @Brains. They're much more constrained in texts (might not be IRL, my 8w9 dad isn't!). You more easily fit the 9w8 + Ne archetype.
> 
> (People get to see me as the 6w7 rambling archetype in more private situations and occasionally on the forum, so no insult meant!)
> 
> Note: This is a shitty way to _type _people, but can narrow things down sometimes.


To be fair, those are fairly “dry” people with potentially “dry” types (Te ego) and an SP variant.

A Sx 8w9 should be less constrained. “Heavy” might be the word you’re looking for ? 8w9s are always heavy IME, whereas 8w7 is more spread out and erratic.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> To be fair, those are fairly “dry” people with potentially “dry” types (Te ego) and an SP variant.
> 
> A Sx 8w9 should be less constrained. “Heavy” might be the word you’re looking for ? 8w9s are always heavy IME, whereas 8w7 is more spread out and erratic.


No, neither constrained, nor dry, nor heavy, work as well as I'd like, but... Straightforward, maybe. Direct. 
None of that really implies things like being polished or irreverent or unfriendly, mind.

I don't know if I'd call 8w7 "spread out and erratic" in writing, but they're definitely the 8s that... strike out more.

Edit: Oh sorry. Yeah they are "dry" people, definitely, but the writing is still... different in its own way.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> No, neither constrained, nor dry, nor heavy, work as well as I'd like, but... Straightforward, maybe. Direct.
> None of that really implies things like being polished or irreverent or unfriendly, mind.
> 
> I don't know if I'd call 8w7 "spread out and erratic" in writing, but they're definitely the 8s that... strike out more.


Maybe.

Not necessarily in terms of writing but in interaction. 8w7s engage more and more widely, with more playing around. And yeah, they rough up a bit more. Anyway, different beasts than Brains or Coburn.


----------



## Coburn

@mp2

Interesting. I definitely relate to some parts of what you wrote, such as filling out questionnaires. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

As an aside, from what I've observed, a five's reason for avoiding conflict is vastly different than a nine's. The reasons you describe seem more nine. Fives, from what I have observed, are not actually that afraid of conflict. They are more afraid of being wrong.


----------



## Coburn

ElectricSlime said:


> To be fair, those are fairly “dry” people with potentially “dry” types (Te ego) and an SP variant.
> 
> A Sx 8w9 should be less constrained. “Heavy” might be the word you’re looking for ? 8w9s are always heavy IME, whereas 8w7 is more spread out and erratic.


By this scoring system, I am the drier than a Baptist Church during the Prohibition.


----------



## Wisteria

Tad Cooper said:


> Yeah, rip!! It went deathly quiet... (I was really busy with work, sorry!)
> Is it wanting to have some strong sense of bonding rather than the really casual relationships people have, that can seem almost superficial? (If so I very much understand that - I have the casual ones at work, but have a few close friends I feel a bond with).


don't worry about it, I don't mind really. sorry I've taken ages to reply though! (I've been on perC less because access to the internet is tricky atm, due to travelling and bad connection). 

Yeah exactly, except I don't even like casual relationships for some reason. I'd rather have a few close friends than a lot of acquaintances or not very close friends. 



> Yeah, it makes sense! Why to get a decent job? Security? I tend to like to feel I know a lot and so can handle any situation (I over prepare for everything).
> Good plan, I'll look into them! What are your thoughts on those two and how theyre different?
> Triads are a bit confusing for me because of having to account for so many factors! If I was a 5 I think Id be 5w6, because of the 6ish influence. Reasons against me being a 5 were how I 'dont seem like a 5' from what I gathered. I'm not really sure, but whenever it was brought up people just went 'no'.
> Awesome! Could you send me a link to it? (Im bad at finding posts/threads generally!)
> That's good though, chaotic stuff is more prone to actually getting results!


Is that like making sure you're prepared for the worst? That reminds me of a Si description I read recently ( post should be here if you're curious)

I want a decent job not just because of security but because I want to do something that requires more expertise, that requires knowledge on a subject rather than a job that anyone can do. I like the idea of mastering a skill and implementing that in the workplace (or even in my own time). Also the kind of work I would like to do suits me a lot.

How 5 and 8 are different? I'm not sure really, apart from 5 being withdrawn while 8s are not.
It would be more helpful if they explained why you weren't a 5 tbh

There are lot of factors to consider yeah, maybe reading into heart/head/gut triads to start with? Some people actually get books about enneagram too. Finding good online resources isn't that easy, but there are some good stickies in the enneagram forums. Also listening to the audio descriptions on enneagram institute is quite fun  (in the type descriptions)

sure, my questionnaire is this thread; http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1239481-timeless-questionnaire.html


----------



## Asd456

Sorry for the late response, forgot about this after the thread was closed.



Tad Cooper said:


> Thanks! Do you think it's best to read a wide range of descriptions and then put them together to form a kind-of-whole picture?


I think you should read descriptions from a few of the different authors to get a sense of their views (RH, Naranjo, Palmer, Condon, Maitri, Almaas, etc.) and decide from there which descriptions you like. The problem with putting a wide range of descriptions together to form a whole picture is that some descriptions contradict each other. For example, RH's 2 is described more favorably ("the helper") whereas Naranjo's 2 is described less favorably. Some authors believe in the CP/P 6 dichotomy but some don't, etc. So I think it's best to weed out the authors you don't like and keep the ones that you do like. 



Tad Cooper said:


> Ah cool okay, so good to ignore those things at least until the core if found?


IMO, for tritype specifically, I think it's best to save that for last. I don't find it useful at all. For wing and subtype, it depends. Some people find wing helpful, some people find subtype helpful, some people find wing unhelpful, etc.



Tad Cooper said:


> Oh interesting! How do I remind you of your friend? I tend to be positive but not overly upbeat I dont think (Im quite medium/low energy). I dont want to be altruistic but want to be good and to make things good - I want to help situations and in turn help people if that makes sense?


You come across as positive, friendly, cheerful, enthusiastic, optimistic, etc. and my ENFP Social 7 friend is the same way.



Tad Cooper said:


> Hmm Im not into a good self image or being the best but do work hard and want to be competent, resourceful, able to cope.


I expanded on the good self image because of this



Tad Cooper said:


> I think I like a good self image but am not as fussed about it passing on to others? (I like to do things etc to make me believe Im good rather than other people - though encouragement etc is valued).


I'd associate 'being the best' and a desire to succeed with Threes. 

Core Sevens fear pain, even Social Sevens. Sometimes it's a bit harder to realize their type because the countertype is the type that goes against the passion of the type. For my Social 7 friend, I thought she was a 9 at first. It's harder to tell. I would say it's also harder for Self-Preservation Threes to realize they are Threes (as the countertype they strive to be anti-vanity and anti-deception).

Not sure if you're still considering Self-Preservation Three but I've met some ENTJ Self-Preservation Threes. Vanity is less pronounced but they still struggle with worthlessness and to compensate for that they push themselves to be the best. They identify with their accomplishments to the point of not knowing who they really are without their accomplishments. Until they can separate themselves from their accomplishments and get in touch with what's inside, they'll continue on the long, long race and not realize that the race is only with themselves. So a Seven fears pain, and a Three fears being worthless.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Nissa Nissa you are a bit of an enigma to me,* since I cannot sense the Fi*, but I don't have a suitable alternative in mind either.


There you go. An example of you talking about sensing Fi or not. 

And I did not necessarily think you meant "sensing" in an Si sense, I simply chose that word because I recalled you using it, in this and other cases. So no need to get defensive.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Remnants said:


> There you go. An example of you talking about sensing Fi or not.
> 
> And I did not necessarily think you meant "sensing" in an Si sense, I simply chose that word because I recalled you using it, in this and other cases. So no need to get defensive.


I was providing a general impression in that context. Anyways I don’t see the point of following this line of argument since you seemed to imply that sensing something could somehow be blind to conscious vs. unconscious functions which I don’t believe is the case and I simply disagree. And I may use the word sense others may say vibe or impression and then go on to talk about it...same thing.


----------



## Dangerose

@ElectricSlime thanks for consistently being most rational level-headed person involved and sorry for your thread getting shut down, (also that people keep responding to your Fe-Ti with _'but this is a centuries-old conflict'_, somewhat amusing actually )


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> @ElectricSlime thanks for consistently being most rational level-headed person involved and sorry for your thread getting shut down, (also that people keep responding to your Fe-Ti with _'but this is a centuries-old conflict'_, somewhat amusing actually )


Don’t think I deserve that crown but thanks for recognizing my efforts at diplomacy


----------



## Darkbloom

:frustrating: :angry: :frustrating:

So annoyed with threads constantly getting closed down and like...for _those reasons_ :frustrating:

For some reason I really expected this one to last :laughing:

So sorry @ElectricSlime :sad:

(I mean I know it's not permanent but)

From now on I promise I'll treat every troublemaker as a ghost :ghost2: 
(and I mean the very quiet, invisible kind)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> :frustrating: :angry: :frustrating:
> 
> So annoyed with threads constantly getting closed down and like...for _those reasons_ :frustrating:
> 
> For some reason I really expected this one to last :laughing:
> 
> So sorry @ElectricSlime :sad:
> 
> (I mean I know it's not permanent but)
> 
> From now on I promise I'll treat every troublemaker as a ghost :ghost2:
> (and I mean the very quiet, invisible kind)


You guys don’t have to apologize, it’s just a thread for collective purpose. The fact that I made it doesn’t make me particularly attached to it lol. You no longer type as Two btw ?


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> The fact that I made it doesn’t make me particularly attached to it lol.


Deadbeat.


----------



## ElectricSlime

nep2une said:


> Deadbeat.


lmao


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> You guys don’t have to apologize, it’s just a thread for collective purpose. The fact that I made it doesn’t make me particularly attached to it lol. You no longer type as Two btw ?


Ok, I kinda thought of it as your Fe-Ni vision of some sort and felt bad about ruining it :laughing:
And yes think you deserve that crown , you were so nice and rational and patient, it almost made me angry :laughing:
But it felt like you weren't approving of all the beastly behavior 
(edit: to be clear, don't think I did anything extremely wrong given the situation lol, talking about the situation as a whole)

I guess my profile thinks I don't  (I wasn't really aware of it before you mentioned it)
I mean in my head I still do I think, outside of it I rarely really type as anything tbh, often just put it in my profile for a while just so people know where I stand and then remove it a few days later! 

Why?


(but feel like you generally expect me to have more definite type opinions or something, like if you typed me as EIE right now I'd enjoy my victory for a week and then get annoyed that you can't see SEI anymore
Wanted to mention it in my defense earlier when you attacked me for wanting to get typed as EIE at all costs but I thought it would annoy you even more  )


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> You guys don’t have to apologize, it’s just a thread for collective purpose. The fact that I made it doesn’t make me particularly attached to it lol. You no longer type as Two btw ?


Nonsense, that thread was like a child to you, allow yourself to grieve :violin:

(I'm really tired so if this post isn't hilarious blame it on that)


----------



## Dangerose

once I bought a lot of balloons and blew them all up and had them all around my house, suddenly struck me how ridiculous that is, this is the work of a very sad person:


----------



## Darkbloom

Don't really have time to elaborate (and I don't want to) but STP is the only type that makes sense for my dual to me, Not saying I'm a Beta NF :ninja: , just...
Idk not sure what an ENTP could do for me or I for them, but maybe I'm overlooking something.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Ok, I kinda thought of it as your Fe-Ni vision of some sort and felt bad about ruining it :laughing:


That would be quite the puny vision ^^'



> And yes think you deserve that crown , you were so nice and rational and patient and awesome and sexy and wise, it almost made me angry :laughing:


You may continue to compliment my person

But seriously, I just made two posts on my phone while being bored in class, I don't get why I'm suddenly a zen master lol. But as a matter of fact I have been feeling quite zen in the past two days. Still somewhat melancholic but quite peaceful, thought it might be sleep deprivation but usually it only makes me even more moody and snappish. Weird. I guess lack of sleep coupled with more physical exercise than usual dropped my energy levels or something.



> But it felt like you weren't approving of all the beastly behavior
> (edit: to be clear, don't think I did anything extremely wrong given the situation lol, talking about the situation as a whole)


Don't know what you're talking about with the disapproval thing, simply wanted to defuse the situation and bring back the thread's attention where it rightfully belonged: on me 



> Why?


It simply caught my attention.



> (but feel like you generally expect me to have more definite type opinions or something, like if you typed me as EIE right now I'd enjoy my victory for a week and then get annoyed that you can't see SEI anymore
> Wanted to mention it in my defense earlier when you attacked me for wanting to get typed as EIE at all costs but I thought it would annoy you even more  )


I can understand not wanting to close down on options for good in case your self perception were to change, and probably because you wouldn't benefit from as much attention were you to settle on a type :violin:

That said neither you or Nissa is Beta NF.


----------



## Dangerose

Also feel like Aggressor romance style is such better match for me than Childish or Infantile, always thought that

100% prefer proper attempts at seduction or courting than like...giving me food or acting really silly, guess that's probably everyone though and possibly related to being a 2

But I feel like I play that game pretty well too, giving right amount of encouragement and distance, I don't like to think of myself as a prize to be won but I do like to play game in which I am one, if that makes sense, feel like Deltas tend to make people feel bad or try to shame people for pursuing them and I don't do that

(and in general I'm always trying to gently nudge people towards being more of an aggressor type towards me)

In general don't want to shame people which seems common with Fi, feel like I set my limits and make my particular moral choices but in a way that people can be like 'oh that's just her' and 'ah we're still having fun', I know that's not in any list about things about Fi but it stands out as something different between me and other people, I'm always looking to expand the energy of a situation too, feels potentially Fe-Se

Not trying to be annoying about this typing, actually agree it's unlikelyish but kinda seeing it rn and I want to put down the case


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Honestly Nissa Nissa, you and Vixey swing between infantile/ (or at least potential) caregiver mode. I don’t really see the victim/aggressor dynamic in you. And once again you’re chasing down a random rabbit hole even though you admit it’s “unlikelyish.” Do you really think an EIE or even an IEE could do this? No, they wouldn’t want to repeat anything; waste of
time in the former’s case and lack of novelty, therefore boring in the latter’s. 

And i I agree you’re heavy on Fe. You didn’t show that I’m yoir video, I don’t know why, but I consider everything together anyway. I don’t see delta for you at all, can you see the rapport you have with ElectricSlime and mfs? And how you (and Vixey) tend to complain about Fi because you can’t stand it. Not really much evidence there for an Fi user either. So clearly merry > serious.

also uhhh “deltas try to make people feel bad for pursuing them” I don’t know what that means but deltas will only “make you feel bad” if you violate an ethical value somehow, at least EII anyway. And to some extent IEE. The other two may feel something is off distantly but may not quite make as much of a deal about it, maybe let it go more easily than I would. 

I also get the feeling you may be scared of Gammas due to them being distant and also well aggressive.


----------



## Dangerose

@Rose for a Heart literally no time, but what do you mean about the first part (swinging thing)

And I mean, it's unlikely-ish because no one sees it lol 

And that's also what I kinda mean, many Deltas seem to have many many ethical values stacked up like booby traps along the road, that's often the impression I get from them, don't feel like I have that, have my principles and ways I try to act and some things I'll disapprove of but it's not the same I think, don't feel Fi valuing

And yeah Gammas scare me)) will never argue with that


----------



## mistakenforstranger

BTW, you don't have to comment, just putting it out there for educational purposes:

Socionics - the16types.info - Beta Quadra: The Complex of Subservience by Stratiyevskaya


----------



## Rose for a Heart

> _Not yielding to them are their duals: EIE Hamlet, who fiercely attacks an opponent from the position of "obstinate" and authoritarian ethics of emotions (+Fe) – an eloquent orator, a consummate public denouncer, having no equal in this in the entire socion – the EIE knows how to captivate his listeners with ardent fervor of his statements, and does not give a break to anyone in a dispute. He protects himself fiercely and aggressively, saying things that sound extremely convincing, while in actuality having few "trump cards" or even in complete absence of them. That's who will defend his point of view to the very end, to the last breath, and will never consider himself guilty. Defending himself, the EIE always attacks (as is typical of an "obstinate" determined "strategic" type). If he cannot find an appropriate logical argument, he often gets personal, switches things around, and moves the blame to someone else's shoulders, trying to divert suspicions from himself. _


_ 

sounds exactly like.. @ElectricSlime. And another EIE I knew. _


----------



## ElectricSlime

Urgh why can't I EVER make do on my decisions to stop getting involved :bored:



Rose for a Heart said:


> Honestly Nissa Nissa, you and Vixey swing between infantile/ (or at least potential) caregiver mode. I don’t really see the victim/aggressor dynamic in you. And once again you’re chasing down a random rabbit hole even though you admit it’s “unlikelyish.” Do you really think an EIE or even an IEE could do this? No, they wouldn’t want to repeat anything; waste of
> time in the former’s case and lack of novelty, therefore boring in the latter’s.
> 
> And i I agree you’re heavy on Fe. You didn’t show that I’m yoir video, I don’t know why, but I consider everything together anyway. I don’t see delta for you at all, can you see the rapport you have with ElectricSlime and mfs? And how you (and Vixey) tend to complain about Fi because you can’t stand it. Not really much evidence there for an Fi user either. So clearly merry > serious.
> 
> also uhhh “deltas try to make people feel bad for pursuing them” I don’t know what that means but deltas will only “make you feel bad” if you violate an ethical value somehow, at least EII anyway. And to some extent IEE. The other two may feel something is off distantly but may not quite make as much of a deal about it, maybe let it go more easily than I would.
> 
> I also get the feeling you may be scared of Gammas due to them being distant and also well aggressive.


Honestly the kind of people they're shitting on are actually the Gammas. Deltas are chill people, and don't go around shaming people unless they feel attacked or the situation calls for it. The whole "you take a step wrong and I punish you" deal is a Se quadra thing.

Also IEE in my experience are not all that preachy, at least less so than their fellow quadra members. They also have 4D Fe demonstrative so, like the SEE, can appear to be Fe valuers until it gets pushed enough that their priorities become clear. Just saying that cause I'm not throwing out an IEE typing of Nissa yet, because I see a lot of misunderstandings in her views of Deltas.



> In general don't want to shame people which seems common with Fi, feel like I set my limits and make my particular moral choices but in a way that people can be like 'oh that's just her' and 'ah we're still having fun', I know that's not in any list about things about Fi but it stands out as something different between me and other people, I'm always looking to expand the energy of a situation too, feels potentially Fe-Se


You think Betas don't shame ? The high school idol clique that laughs at the plebs and outsiders is Beta. The groups of immigrants always doing rap battles and trying to roast themselves in public is Beta. The stereotypical sports team that peps itself up like a bunch of animals and goes up to descend on the opponent like the rage of titans is beta. I know that because I've played bball alongside rich white kids team that were mostly Si atmospheric as well as ghetto kids that were all about emotional unity and mobilization towards victory aimed at destabilizing the opponent (their school which I trained at at the time always had a window broken no matter how much the admin tried to fix it lol). It's not "aw we're still having fun", it's LET'S FUCK SHIT UP. Even while having fun Betas have the whole "Hear me Roar" motto going. That's what you don't understand @Nissa Nissa @Vixey, the vision, the goal, the aristocracy. That's because you associate Fe with "fun" instead of emotional atmosphere. Si emotional atmosphere and Se emotional atmosphere serve different purposes. 






Look at Ray Lewis (either EIE or SLE, probably the latter) at 0:26, THAT is Beta. You can find all kinds of Betas, be it preppy ish rich kids, Nazis or Romantic poets, but they will have always this type of end in mind. Honestly Nissa, the way you describe how you feel ill at ease with Deltas (you're actually talking of Gammas) makes me think the Beta Complex of Subservience would swallow you whole.



Rose for a Heart said:


> sounds exactly like.. @ElectricSlime. And another EIE I knew. [/I][/COLOR]


Lol


----------



## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> Look at Ray Lewis (either EIE or SLE, probably the latter) at 0:26, THAT is Beta. You can find all kinds of Betas, be it preppy ish rich kids, Nazis or Romantic poets, but they will have always this type of end in mind. Honestly Nissa, the way you describe how you feel ill at ease with Deltas (you're actually talking of Gammas) makes me think the Beta Complex of Subservience would swallow you whole.


This too...










We are the champions, my friends,
And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
We are the champions
We are the champions
No time for losers
'Cause we are the champions of the world

Can anyone say Beta?


----------



## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> This too...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are the champions, my friends,
> And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end
> We are the champions
> We are the champions
> No time for losers
> 'Cause we are the champions of the world
> 
> Can anyone say Beta?


Can anyone say gay af lol.

But yeah lyrics are Beta.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> Can anyone say gay af lol.
> 
> But yeah lyrics are Beta.


Gay, but aristocratic. 



> Legendary vocalist Freddie Mercury is responsible for creating Queen’s appropriately stately and regal logo.
> 
> 
> Mercury designed the logo to impart a sense of British royalty into the band’s identity.


----------



## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> Gay, but aristocratic.


Inb4 the regency social instinct things gets brought back~

FWIW I always behaved more like a Gamma in sports: not welcoming, individualistic, distant and prone to play favorites with those I liked better. Always hated the whole philosophy about playing at being friends.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Out of curiosity, what tritype would people here give me?


----------



## Darkbloom

@ElectricSlime curious what you see as less ridiculous, Beta NF or Gamma SF?


----------



## nep2une

ElectricSlime said:


> The whole "you take a step wrong and I punish you" deal is a Se quadra thing.


I'm actually fairly approving of this mindset... Eh maybe depending on context and what exactly the issue is, but if I have to choose between this and just letting people get away with shit... That's one thing I can't stand. Seeing someone getting cut slack when they really, really shouldn't be.

Also a fairly shamey person. Not of friends or acquaintances or innocent people, but it seems like I'm always looking for something to make fun of or pick on. These days... _*here I go somewhat breaking my rule of only vaguely mentioning political interests, also I swear I'm not antifa*_ I fulfill that urge through spending a good amount of my time keeping up with what idiots who legitimately advocate for white ethnostates are up to and all the stupid drama they get into with each other.

Also, I started watching The Crown recently...









































And had a little giggle at this moment. Like ah, Churchill, I feel you, man...


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> @ElectricSlime curious what you see as less ridiculous, Beta NF or Gamma SF?


Gamma SF behaviorally would be less outlandish probably because of your focus on sensory stuff. But I think in terms of values you’d clash more with a Gamma setting than a Beta one, given your preference for Fe.

Alpha > Delta = Beta > Gamma


----------



## Darkbloom

@Rose for a Heart what do you mean by infantile/potentially caregiver? 
And what does victim/aggressor dynamic look like?

To be fair victim seems like the style people are more likely to relate to regardless of their actual type, just reading the words it feels like "I'm obviously the victim, duh" lol caregiver feels simply off to me because...well they seem common enough so I have an idea of what it's supposed to look like and I don't relate to it :/

Or like


> Careful
> - See other people in a caring but maybe arrogant way as if
> they are somekind of "parent figure" and everyone else needs their attention and help
> - Interact as if they they are in control but not in aggressive way. This type always acts in a caring way and expect the partner to accept this care without rebellion
> - Has an openly "patronizing" subtype and a subtype that applies "care" indirectly
> - Hates signs of aggression in themself
> - Has "I know what is best for you" attitude


This doesn't sound much like me, it just doesn't, it's almost the least relatable one, even though I'm not 'aggressive' as in assertive and such, I almost feel more like an aggressor than this.
I'm curious if I seem like I could potentially be like this?

You said 'swinging between', do people swing between caregiver/infantile and aggressor/victim? Maybe I just have a strong infantile leaning or something?


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> But seriously, I just made two posts on my phone while being bored in class, I don't get why I'm suddenly a zen master lol. But as a matter of fact I have been feeling quite zen in the past two days. Still somewhat melancholic but quite peaceful, thought it might be sleep deprivation but usually it only makes me even more moody and snappish. Weird. I guess lack of sleep coupled with more physical exercise than usual dropped my energy levels or something.


Fun fact, apparently sleep deprivation can be a treatment for depression! Sounds bonkers to me, considering depression is one cause of my insomnia, but can't really doubt science... Guess I'm part of the ~40%.



> bring back the thread's attention where it rightfully belonged: on me


You didn't answer or link to any questions tho  
I commend you for considering other ideas, like you switched to SX/SO with such little fuss compared to many, but it's really hard to get you to delve into something sometimes. 



nep2une said:


> I'm actually fairly approving of this mindset... Eh maybe depending on context and what exactly the issue is, but if I have to choose between this and just letting people get away with shit... That's one thing I can't stand. Seeing someone getting cut slack when they really, really shouldn't be.


I associate that kind of "vengeance" with heavy 8 influences, which usually comes down to a fix or a core wing. 2s can do it sometimes but it's usually "provoked" (which can be really confusing if you're not intentionally provoking them).
It makes sense if you prefer Socionics to associate it with Se, and likewise with my own preference with Enneagram. I guess I associate it more with 8 because I see Alphas doing it with similar regularity; maybe I'm just using a broader brush in terms of that kind of behavior.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> Yeah I call bull on this one... It'd be helpful to have some kind of data at least. Besides, what's the point of chasing away depression by tiring yourself out if you'll be underperforming in all areas of life meanwhile.
> Sleep is just one of those little factors that does wonders for chemical imbalances and the likes. Mildly related, I think this CGP Grey vid nails it


You're... calling BS on the five or so studies cited?

I don't think they're saying any variant of "sleep is bad," which would be a little silly because every doctor nowadays is pushing the "sleep more, you morons" angle. They seem to be saying that, in some cases, this is just another tool of many that can be tried. One that may appeal more to people, especially in comparison to the (oft demonized) anti-depressants.



> I didn't actually want to get the spotlight, this was just a tongue in cheek remark :wink: What do you mean ? That I'm elusive ? I've gotten more lazy with responses lately due to being busy and just..well..being lazy. Sometimes I don't reply either because I plainly forget or because I'm uncertain about my reply and am still working it out in my head. Especially when I'm thinking something one day and I know I might change my mind depending on my self perception in the next few days following.


No, I wouldn't use the word elusive, exactly - that implies hard to get ahold of, or actively deflecting questions. I was just trying to say, (and I may be misremembering) you seemed to avoid all talk and questions about the possibility of EIE, whereas you seem happy to talk about ILE vs. SLE. I have intention to guess why you seemed to avoid it, but it was kind of a weird silence on the subject from you. I still have no idea what you think about being Fe-leading xD
(And I think I asked for you to link me to a questionnaire because I have a vague memory of you saying you did one, but I don't see a thread if you made one.)

I understand feeling different day to day. That's where averages come into play, imo. IIRC that came up a while ago so yeah, I still say it's normal 



> I should put that in my signature so that the people that say I don't consider multiple perspectives can shut up lol.


Pls don't, lol
Haters gonna hate regardless, anyway xD

(And now I go to bed :sleeping


----------



## Mr Castelo

Paradigm said:


> I'd be surprised if you're triple-withdrawn, bro. (Then again, I can't deny my bias against 459.)


Why would 459 be surprising? Tbh, I don't take tritype nearly as serious as I take the instinctual variants, for example.



> Superficially, you display more "Competency" than I do, but it seems... secondary, in a way my 1 fix gives me "secondary Competency" vibes. Main reason for choosing 3, I guess - though, I have a mildly different concept of what makes up a 3 (like, they're not all rich sociopaths). A 5 fix just feels way too obvious to be certain about yet (in the way "you're INTx, you're obv 5" way), but I'm not discounting it, per se.


In what way do I display more "Competency"? I suppose that can also be attributed to my sp/so stacking.

I guess I can see your reasoning here, and I don't think all 3s are rich sociopaths either, but I won't claim that my understanding of type 3 is the best. Just never related that much to any of type 3's struggles or desires, at least not on a conscious level. I can see myself having a 6 fix, 97x is out of the table, no way in hell I have that much Positive Outlook in my being.



> Why do people put you at a 2 fix? Do you relate to 2, or 4?


I've asked a few of them, and most of them were basing their reasonings on the descriptions of the tritype as a whole (which I'm sure is not supposed to be the best method). Others just seemed to think that I'm too passive to be 359 or 459.

Between 2 and 4, I relate more to 4, sorry, lol. I'm aware of the introverted bias, but even 3 seems more likely than 2.


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> I am not sure I understand how exactly you conceptualize the infantile/caregiver dichotomy. What you stated above feels SFJ, not necessarily STJ. You know what you're attracted to, so I cannot speak on your behalf. However, it was crystal clear to me from the beginning where _I _would fall, given those two dichotomies.


That was slightly annoying summation of that on my part, not sure how great my understanding is of it and I, like Remnants, might be being thrown off by very unsexy sounding names))



> I have a certain way I see the infantile/caregiver pair, but before that perhaps I should point out what victim/aggressor looks like to me. Victims are, for the lack of better word, extremely confusing to me. They seem to want to "submit" themselves and be conquered...instead of something more simple and straightforward (and more honest in my eyes) which I, as a Delta, prefer. I have a hard time understanding Victims, because I might point out something to them, or just wish they would be more straight with me, but because I am not an aggressor, they do not respond to that.


I think I am like this though  My username for example is this:

_ It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

“Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. *‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.*_

which idk, really like that story, never want to change my username because it seems to fit me somehow really well))

There's also this song:






_Stone lady, ice fairytale
Instead of a heart a stone, instead of feelings a mask, and so what?
It hurts all the same

Lonesome cat as a wild, turbulent beast
Never cries, believes no one, and so what?
It still hurts

Loneliness is a jerk
Loneliness is a bore
I can't feel (my?) heart, I can't feel (my?) hand
I myself decided this
Silence is my friend
Better than I had sinned
Loneliness is torture

*You, in the embrace of passion, taming the lioness
Know that she wants to submit to you
To lose the game*

She roars in a cage of feelings and wishes
Tired of freezing in the kingdom waiting alone
Become her fate

Loneliness is a jerk
Loneliness is a bore
I can't feel (my?) heart, I can't feel (my?) hand
I myself decided this
Silence is my friend
Better than I had sinned
Loneliness is torture
Loneliness is a bitch

I myself closed the door
I am satisfied with myself
So why is it so bad?
Why is it so painful?_

Ok there's a lot more to the song lol but the bolded part seems victimy and also very relatable to me



> I was thinking about something.. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=418985" target="_blank">ElectricSlime</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> you are smart enough to know that SLE is a much looser fit than EIE or perhaps even ILE, though you vibe very strongly as EIE, and that much I said a few times now. I did not respond to your "how do you know my Se is not strong enough" because well, I can't really know for sure, but I also still have a hunch you are very, very far from SLE, and I think you know too. It feels as if you _know_, but you want to be challenged by someone stronger, someone who can convince you. It's this sort of "game" I tend to see with Victims.


Oooh, that makes sense 



> Now, onto infantile/caregiver. The last time I had talked about this, I had mentioned acting "childlike" as in literally acting like a little girl. I don't know what takes over me, but it just happens sometimes. Anyways, I think some part of me has been changed all of a sudden and I am shifting from that to a more mature inner me. That will always be a part of me, but now I am...I suppose re-claiming a part of me I had let go to sleep. But still, I know my achilles' heel is that tenderness and care with which Si users tend to respond to me (pseudo-caregivers can, too, or anyone at all for that matter). It makes me quickly and completely obsessed. I don't necessarily want to be treated like a child, but I wanted to be treated with tenderness and love, but fiery passion at the same time. Hope that makes sense. And that doesn't mean literally "doing things" like cooking for me, actually thinking about that doesn't make me feel much of anything at all. For me - as it would be for anyone, I would assume - it's about the bond between us.


Aha (btw really interesting, thanks for sharing!)
That sort of dynamic, I'm not sure it really resonates with me though
On the one hand, tenderness and care is all right, and anything someone does for me seemingly out of love or affection is welcome, but at the same thing I never feel like I'm properly appreciating people caring for me, it can feel like a burden in a way, I could feel a bit smothered, in general in life I feel trapped when people are trying to make me more comfortable or something, it can be nice in the right contexts but I don't think it's something I _consistently_ look for, anyways I'd be more patient and appreciative of that in a guy I was into, but I can imagine it would be wearying after a bit, I'd feel like I'd have to reciprocate and we'd eventually be in total debt to each other on physical matters in a very confusing way

Do like people to be worried about me or want to save me though, often have the impulse to take risks so people will hurry to save me, try not to anymore because it's such an obvious and cringey thing to do, but I could see that being infantile?

As for caregiver, there's more to relate to I think, mostly keep coming back to this cooking thing, which might not even be genuine caregiver thing lol, maybe taking that 'the way to a man's heart is through his stomach', think I always thought of it as a sort of magic spell that if a man ate something I made that would...mean something, at the very least I guess it would mean I'd given him soemthing, but honestly tend to think of it in more superstitious, than actual, terms

But also did always like to think of myself as looking out for person I was interested in, wished I could keep them safe, and just be invisible angel looking over them and making everything in life a little easier :fall: 

but idk actually being caregiver every day I imagine being tiring at some point, not sure what I bring to the table but I don't think it's that necessarily



> And by swinging, I mean that not only do I believe an infantile could be a pseudo-caregiver (I certainly recognize that potential in myself), but I have seen glimpses, and in your case *complete possession by the infantile side of you. *I think, if you are on either of those dichotomies (infantile/caregiver and victim/aggressor), you will naturally have the potential to swing from one side to another. And you strike me as more of a "infantile" (not a fan of that term, to be perfectly honest, but yeah).


Can you expand to where you actually see this in me?


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> Was going to say, that doesn't really sound like you, more like the opposite of that. Are ESEs Caregiver types because that sounds like every ESE I've known lol.


Yeah :/
ESEs and SEIs I know are like that, at least one LSE too.


And this is why I kept mentioning being 'aggressive' in some ways as an argument against SFJ


> Hates signs of aggression in themself


Even a SFJ 3 I know is like this.

But as always it's possible I just type caregiver-y people as caregivers and non caregiver-y caregivers as something else.


Not quite related but the main thing about Alpha SF, I imagine it as this




(makes sense for Fe and lower Ne?)

This is sooo Si/Ne






:disgust: 


I mean I know it's the kind of songs she has to have but like it's definitely songs written for Si/Ne valuers, loved making fun of things like that when I was younger 

(also I don't hate Selena Gomez, used to be obsessed with some of her songs)



Or like better because it's 2w3 and line to 8 




But like...isn't this so SFJ-ish still, even though it's aggressive? In ways I'm not?
She never seems to I guess own her power in Se valuing way to me, that's how I often see Alpha SFs.


----------



## Dangerose

I mean in the moment I try to attract with whatever I think will work lol, don't have a very large arsenal either

But I want to be conquered, think that's generally true across the board

(think it could just be 2 though)

There's also this song, sorry for all the links:






_I've been looking for the conqueror but you don't seem to come my way_

Think she's obviously EII this girl, so I think many types can probably relate to that, love that though, no idea how to explain how I relate to it, when I hear the song I literally imagine actually some sprawling GoTish Norse setting and some goddess going out with her sword and searching around the world for the person who was destined to conquer her in a prophecy or something lol, my imagination took it really literally but that thing I imagine sounds like me a bit, ahaha


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Nissa Nissa said:


> That was slightly annoying summation of that on my part, not sure how great my understanding is of it and I, like Remnants, might be being thrown off by very unsexy sounding names))


Sure, I don't like the terms either. 


> I think I am like this though  My username for example is this:_
> 
> “A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. *‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.*_
> 
> which idk, really like that story, never want to change my username because it seems to fit me somehow really well))_
> 
> *You, in the embrace of passion, taming the lioness
> Know that she wants to submit to you
> To lose the game*_
> 
> Ok there's a lot more to the song lol but the bolded part seems victimy and also very relatable to me


These quotes, specially the first one, gave me a strong impression of "sacrifice," which may still go along with possible Caregiver type. And yeah you're right, a lot of this just sound like enneagram 2. Something else I wanted to add - and I am not trying to be mean - but you do not really come across as a "Lioness who wants to be tamed." At least on this forum. So I would like to hear more on that and what that means to you. 

You don't put on much of a resistance though, as a victim ought to. And I don't mean that only in the romantic context, because really in that context it would be rather common and _natural_, and doesn't necessarily point to being a Victim as far as I can tell. It seems to run their very veins, they like to challenge and be "won over" I suppose, by someone who is confident and goes for what they want. So they put up multiple hurdles in the road in order to enliven that tension between them. My friend called it "teasing" which makes sense. So, not just in the context of courtship, this quality should show in the Victim. You seem to...given in easily. You are more soft and gentle, not really all that resisting. 

Again, resisting in the context of romance is normal, and it can exist in infantile/caregiver as well. 

I would also like to add that sure, you can be mix of types, or even fall under something that you aren't "supposed to." You know what you like, and I cannot decide that for you, but I would urge you to consider if that really goes against what you have been classified under the Romance Styles. 



> That sort of dynamic, I'm not sure it really resonates with me though
> On the one hand, tenderness and care is all right, and anything someone does for me seemingly out of love or affection is welcome, but at the same thing I never feel like I'm properly appreciating people caring for me, it can feel like a burden in a way, I could feel a bit smothered, in general in life I feel trapped when people are trying to make me more comfortable or something, it can be nice in the right contexts but I don't think it's something I _consistently_ look for, anyways I'd be more patient and appreciative of that in a guy I was into, but I can imagine it would be wearying after a bit, I'd feel like I'd have to reciprocate and we'd eventually be in total debt to each other on physical matters in a very confusing way
> 
> Do like people to be worried about me or want to save me though, often have the impulse to take risks so people will hurry to save me, try not to anymore because it's such an obvious and cringey thing to do, but I could see that being infantile?


Well, you are not actually an infantile according to this (still going off of ESE typing). So I would imagine my description, from the lens of a "infantile" (...ugh) type feels somehow hollow or not as satisfying. Also, everything you have said seems to point to high dimensional Se, which would go along with the ESE typing. 



> As for caregiver, there's more to relate to I think, mostly keep coming back to this cooking thing, which might not even be genuine caregiver thing lol, maybe taking that 'the way to a man's heart is through his stomach', think I always thought of it as a sort of magic spell that if a man ate something I made that would...mean something, at the very least I guess it would mean I'd given him soemthing, but honestly tend to think of it in more superstitious, than actual, terms
> 
> But also did always like to think of myself as looking out for person I was interested in, wished I could keep them safe, and just be invisible angel looking over them and making everything in life a little easier :fall:
> 
> but idk actually being caregiver every day I imagine being tiring at some point, not sure what I bring to the table but I don't think it's that necessarily


Well, being a caregiver doesn't have that much to do with "cooking" at least that's how I see it. And I don't know what the experience is like for them haha, I cannot speak for that. But it does feel like you may not completely understand this dynamic yet, since you seem somewhat ambivalent about it. 



> Can you expand to where you actually see this in me?


Should be self-evident.

Oh, something else I wanted to add. Wanting to be "submissive" =/= being a Victim. It just sounds like a pretty common thing that anyone can like.


----------



## Darkbloom

Rose for a Heart said:


> You don't put on much of a resistance though, as a victim ought to. And I don't mean that only in the romantic context, because really in that context it would be rather common and natural, and doesn't necessarily point to being a Victim as far as I can tell. It seems to run their very veins, they like to challenge and be "won over" I suppose, by someone who is confident and goes for what they want. So they put up multiple hurdles in the road in order to enliven that tension between them. My friend called it "teasing" which makes sense. So, not just in the context of courtship, this quality should show in the Victim.


Yeah I don't do this 
I mean sometimes I think I do but not really, I don't have that kind of I guess detachment and control of myself or something, I forget to put on resistance in that sense.
edit: feel like I sometimes interpret/justify my infantile-y behavior as victim-y  , like "No, I'm not acting like a child, I'm putting up hurdles for you so you can conquer me :fall: " or something, have more to say but not sure how to put it into words.


Realistically think I act the most like infantile, don't really relate to your description though, I'm more like this or something :/


> On the other hand can be openly rebellious against care and
> need a lot of "right kind of" attention


But don't feel like I seek Si in others, Se seeking still seems relatable but...


----------



## Darkbloom

Could someone see ILE?


----------



## Darkbloom

Did they decide to _permanently_ close the socionics thread? :concern:
Hope not, this one makes me want to kill myself for some reason, I know it should be the same but


----------



## gambino

Any chance somebody wants to take a crack at me ? My Enneagram knowledge isn't that indepth yet and I don't have the resources to buy books currently. Been into this for maybe a year now and I'm not sure how certain my type is !


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> think I'll discuss the instincts here. In general, think I related to sp/so, because of relating to sp-4 (from Beatrice Chestnut/Naranjo descriptions, so...), and I usually type as strongest in sp or so on tests. Also, this 4 sp/so description was very relatable to me, but I'm very unpractical and not very independent. Sp descriptions on their own don't really resonate when they talk about health, finances, stability, as I tend to not be at all. I can find one, and highlight things I relate to maybe tomorrow, and there likely isn't to be much, but for now...


Yeah, same-ish :/

I mean...I talk about it all the time, don't want to repeat myself too much, already said how unlike you I definitely notice I'm hungry and like...I'm aware of how things are affecting me physically or otherwise but only as long as they make me feel something, I don't notice and struggle to care if I failed to follow some Si rule like eating vegetables or whatever, although I do like...spent last three months waiting for the right moment to start paying attention to my health or something, now I finally can because there's more of acceptable kinds of fruit available and other things, don't feel like talking about it lol, but can't tell if it's Sp or Si or anti Sp or Si.
Basically I only eat ok in summer and it's starting to bother me (used to not care at all, still mostly care about appearance and well I don't want to die but feel like taking care of Si is unlikely to stop death anyway) but don't know what to do about it other than wait and hope I survive till the raspberry season.

Or like this is random but I have a couple of moles I'm paranoid about but don't feel like I can go to the doctor, can't even explain it, yesterday I was checking myself for ticks (I went hiking) and occurred to me to ask my dad to look at parts of my skin, like ask to check for ticks but actually wanted him to notice my moles (hate this sentence and the word mole, sorry :laughing: ), send me to the doctor if he thinks it's neccessary, would be so much easier that way and I just can't imagine deciding to go to the doctor and then going all on my own initiative, but then I changed my mind (mostly for unrelated reasons, well didn't want him to get mad at me about something)

Could that be Si seeking? Si base/caregiver that's somehow in the opposite role?


Doesn't sound like Si base and sp combined?
But it also feels like it could be related to extreme degree of one or the other I think.


(sorry for talking about myself lol, just confused about instincts, I'm not sure but sp dom (for you) is making much less sense than before)


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> BTW, you don't have to comment, just putting it out there for educational purposes:
> 
> Socionics - the16types.info - Beta Quadra: The Complex of Subservience by Stratiyevskaya


edit: not actually edit but so busy/this is taking forever to respond to so I'll save other things for later but about your instincts, think I'd lean so/sx really, don't see any real reason for sp second, and I think the subtypes are largely disregardable?

hopefully will say more later

K, interesting - remember reading this before, not relatable, ALpha 'open mouth' thing was more relatable I think (people never let me talk!)

_Beta Quadra is afraid of:
- having to part with their honor and dignity, a privileged position in society; Not especially, pretentious enough that I would prefer to occupy privileged position in society but don't think it's a complex with me
- being plunged into poverty, to a position without rights, being lowered in rank;hard for me to actually conceptualize things like poverty and rights, not something I really think about, when I was a teenager I would stress a lot about if I would have to become a prostitute, apparently thought this was really likely or something, but what I worried about most about with my future was about my personal happiness I guess as well as that kind of 'honor' like of not being prostitute, worried about not being married and not having any place in life, mostly just about being alone though
- being forced out of the privileged strata and thrown to the bottom of society;hard to be kicked out of somewhere you never were
- being demoted, deprived of rank, title, privileges and powers; if I had those things i wouldn't want to lose them lol but idk
- humiliating reprisals and punishments; Not really, for example in Game of Thrones there's a seen where Cersei is made to walk through the city naked while people said 'shame shame shame' and everyone was talking about how horrifying that was to see, didn't really get it, of course I wouldn't want that but it didn't strike any chord, anything that's just a walk through the city does not seem like a horrible punishment to me
- dependency on someone else's evil will;wouldn't want it but :/
- uncertainty concerning own social status and position, slander, libel, false accusations;I know like 10 people, this isn't a worry for me ahahaha
- afraid of collusions and conspiracies behind his back, of rumors, gossip, backstabbing, intrigues and betrayal;I don't work for a spy business so no, if I thought there were intrigues going around I'd be very happy indeed
- afraid of all that would obstruct him from surviving and restoring own social status under extreme circumstances.no
but I'm not a sp 6 too?

Beta Quadra doesn't tolerate attacks on their social standing, on their rank, position, rights and privileges: they don't tolerate when their rights and rank advantages are being challenged, they don't tolerate familiarity in attitudes of others, in jest or serious, and can't stand ridicule that could create false impression of their inability to fend for themselves. This seems like a description of 6s with no sense of humour, never met someone like this

Beta Quadra doesn't tolerate:
- confusion in the chain of command and subordinate relations;I do realllllly like strict hierarchy to know where things really stand, I like to know exactly what I'm allowed to do and not, what would be a liberty and what wouldn't be, feel really confused outside of this
- departures from etiquette and protocol;Used to be really strict about etiquette and had a very prescriptivist idea of how people should behave, but I've got over that
- disrespect for position and rank - deliberately derogatory or humorously familiar attitudes;again I remember being a little more like this as a kid, really horrified me when kids called teachers by their first names (which is fairly common in the States), hated when adults acted like they were my friends or something when I knew they were bending down to do that, didn't like it when people sounded disrespectful about world leaders or whatever, liked to tell people how they still deserved respect for occupying that position, no longer think this way, though I'd find it difficult to break rank or whatever
- infringement on their personal rights, goals, ambitions, desecration of their honor and dignity;No ida what this would look like, the world is not crawling with enemies of mine
- misconduct, disobedience, insubordination, disrespectful or unacceptable behavior within the hierarchy, society, system.Not sure, probably not, tend to be more sympathetic to the trouble-makers?
_

Do you relate to this?



ElectricSlime said:


> Honestly the kind of people they're shitting on are actually the Gammas. Deltas are chill people, and don't go around shaming people unless they feel attacked or the situation calls for it. The whole "you take a step wrong and I punish you" deal is a Se quadra thing.


I can't believe that the preachy, self-satisfied and trite people I am thinking of are Se valuing



> Also IEE in my experience are not all that preachy, at least less so than their fellow quadra members. They also have 4D Fe demonstrative so, like the SEE, can appear to be Fe valuers until it gets pushed enough that their priorities become clear. Just saying that cause I'm not throwing out an IEE typing of Nissa yet, because I see a lot of misunderstandings in her views of Deltas.


I only said one thing about Deltas btw, people are acting like I said a lot, just said that Delta (girls at least) often seem to want to shame guys for hitting on them, think any quadra could do it, Gamma would do it more forcefully lol, Beta would do it in a different way, Alpha probably another way, but I was thinking of a specifically Delta way, think I'm right



> You think Betas don't shame ? The high school idol clique that laughs at the plebs and outsiders is Beta. The groups of immigrants always doing rap battles and trying to roast themselves in public is Beta.



No, I do, think Beta shames like 'you can't keep up' or 'you're not one of us', more clannish and statusy, classic shaming I guess, agree with that, I was thinking of more...1ish shaming I guess :/



> The stereotypical sports team that peps itself up like a bunch of animals and goes up to descend on the opponent like the rage of titans is beta. I know that because I've played bball alongside rich white kids team that were mostly Si atmospheric as well as ghetto kids that were all about emotional unity and mobilization towards victory aimed at destabilizing the opponent (their school which I trained at at the time always had a window broken no matter how much the admin tried to fix it lol).


I mean surely actual social situation there has a lot more to do with it than quadra, many minority groups or more disadvantaged people tend to have more...force, just because of situation, level of intensity has to do more imo with how much people care, not saying that's not a good illustration but hm



> It's not "aw we're still having fun", it's LET'S FUCK SHIT UP. Even while having fun Betas have the whole "Hear me Roar" motto going. That's what you don't understand @Nissa Nissa @Vixey, the vision, the goal, the aristocracy. That's because you associate Fe with "fun" instead of emotional atmosphere. Si emotional atmosphere and Se emotional atmosphere serve different purposes.


I didn't not understand that, I did say 'atmophere of force', I use the word 'fun' for a lot of things, never meant that Betas love to get together and paint teacups and laugh at animal videos (some might I'm sure)



> Look at Ray Lewis (either EIE or SLE, probably the latter) at 0:26, THAT is Beta. You can find all kinds of Betas, be it preppy ish rich kids, Nazis or Romantic poets, but they will have always this type of end in mind. Honestly Nissa, the way you describe *how you feel ill at ease with Deltas* (you're actually talking of Gammas) makes me think the Beta Complex of Subservience would swallow you whole.


to bolded: when did I say that??

I don't disagree, tbh this video and other team things like that make me feel kinda...embarrassed, in a way it's like they're acting vulnerable and emotional in this video, which is ridiculous because they are like warriors but idk it's uncomfortable for me to watch that video, in similar way I find it uncomfortable when a large crowd of people is singing all together, something about it is embarrassing to me, hard to explain though, but on very basic level, thought it might have something to do with social instinct but it could be Fi valuing thing?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Rose for a Heart
I just said that I can see the styles in myself, but that the way things are worded is off-putting, and that requires some open-mindedness to look past. And I didn't say I necessarily like aggressor/victim any better, if you pay attention, the context was that Nissa and Vixey felt more resonant with the aggressor/victim style, despite being typed as Si/Ne-valuing, so I was thinking that well, I think those things can potentially be misleading. 

(And if you think I'm mistyped it's cool, but do try to understand what I'm saying. I don't like having to spoodfeed everything when it shouldn't be that hard to follow what I'm saying.)


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## Rose for a Heart

@Remnants I do see where you are coming from, I wanted to provide an alternative perspective because though _you_ might find them “off-putting” and “unsexy,” I would disagree that that’s something inherent to those types.


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## owlet

Mr Castelo said:


> Between 2 and 4, I relate more to 4, sorry, lol. I'm aware of the introverted bias, but even 3 seems more likely than 2.


What do you relate to with 4 over the other two, just out of interest? I think potentially 964 for you, but that's more going off vibe than anything concrete (unless you'd like to elaborate of how you relate to each of the types).



gambino said:


> Any chance somebody wants to take a crack at me ? My Enneagram knowledge isn't that indepth yet and I don't have the resources to buy books currently. Been into this for maybe a year now and I'm not sure how certain my type is !


Which sources have you looked at? Also, why did you decide to type as 5?


----------



## Pelopra

ok i think i've narrowed down my possible instinct stacks to:
sp/so, sp/sx, so/sx

anyone wanna take a gander at which one I am?


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## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> I don't disagree, tbh this video and other team things like that make me feel kinda...embarrassed, in a way it's like they're acting vulnerable and emotional in this video, which is ridiculous because they are like warriors but idk it's uncomfortable for me to watch that video, in similar way I find it uncomfortable when a large crowd of people is singing all together, something about it is embarrassing to me, hard to explain though, but on very basic level,* thought it might have something to do with social instinct* but it could be Fi valuing thing?


Same

What do you mean by the bolded?


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## Mr Castelo

owlet said:


> What do you relate to with 4 over the other two, just out of interest? I think potentially 964 for you, but that's more going off vibe than anything concrete (unless you'd like to elaborate of how you relate to each of the types).


Okay, I'll just do the "how I relate to each of the types" thing since it's easier.

1: I'm a perfectionist, I can obsess over every single detail to get my work to "be perfect". I'm also highly self-critical, but not so much of others. I don't relate to the moralist traits of the type, however.

2: I really struggle to come up with anything that remotely sounds like type 2.

3: I guess I do care about my image to some extent, I don't know if this suggests anything type-wise or if it's just a basic human trait. I don't wish to be seen as a role model, but I do want to be seen as at least competent.

4: I'm more familiar than I'd like to admit with the sentiment of feeling defective and "too different for this world".

5: Many things sound familiar to me in this type, the detachment, feeling like the world is overwhelming, feeling like others want way more from me than what I could possibly give, desire to "master" things, etc.

6: I've felt paranoid for a short period of time in my life, and I always check with my self if I'm being "too trusting" of others. I don't have trust issues, but I am wary of people in general. Sometimes, I can also struggle with self-doubt.

7: Hard to come up with anything that fits. I don't feel like I distract myself much at all, and I rarely see the "fun" in things.

8: Also hard for me to come up with anything here.

9: Apathy, feeling like I'm utterly indifferent to the world around me. I feel like I've rejected the world, or given up on it to some extent, it is one of my innermost feelings.


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## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Same
> 
> What do you mean by the bolded?


Well, a million years ago I thought it could have been so-last, really don't think I'm so-last though now so I thought it could have been some sort of weird so-first thing, never had a very specific idea I guess, just assumed it would be related to social instinct


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## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> These quotes, specially the first one, gave me a strong impression of "sacrifice," which may still go along with possible Caregiver type. And yeah you're right, a lot of this just sound like enneagram 2. Something else I wanted to add - and I am not trying to be mean - but you do not really come across as a "Lioness who wants to be tamed." At least on this forum. So I would like to hear more on that and what that means to you.


Second one isn't really about sacrifice, but yeah, fair enough
Well, that's not the first thing I would describe myself as, I mean I do think it fits in a way  like always related to the 'cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to him', not sure how to describe how I think it should fit, there was this story I had with some friends a few years ago, my character was relatable to me and kinda typified that 'lioness wanting to be tamed' thing, don't actually have examples, just some things that amused me, think these two had a Beta relationship? 



> Beta romantic relationships tend to start from intense exchanges of emotions, either of a playful, aggressive sort, or of a more "tormented" sort based on *personal images of special meaning*, "romantic" in a 19th-century sense.

































> You don't put on much of a resistance though, as a victim ought to. And I don't mean that only in the romantic context, because really in that context it would be rather common and _natural_, and doesn't necessarily point to being a Victim as far as I can tell. It seems to run their very veins, they like to challenge and be "won over" I suppose, by someone who is confident and goes for what they want. So they put up multiple hurdles in the road in order to enliven that tension between them. My friend called it "teasing" which makes sense. So, not just in the context of courtship, this quality should show in the Victim. You seem to...given in easily. You are more soft and gentle, not really all that resisting.


I feel like my whole existence is waiting for someone to come and win me over, in normal ways too
(Like that thing I said a long time ago, idk if you read it, about how often a situation is somewhat awkward and I want someone to come in and kiss me to make things...better, like clarifying the whole situation, common feeling of mine, was blaming it on wanting sx from environment but I think it could be something like this too, want people to take control of the conversation 

Anyways, think Mika is ENFJ? He has this song:






I like this part:



> Hey, girl, why can't you carry on?
> Is it 'cause you're just like your mother
> A little tight, like to tease for fun?
> Well, you ain't gonna tease no other
> Gonna make you a lover


Feel like I do like to sort-of 'tease' people, not exactly attractive enough to properly tease :sad: except I do tend to . . . lead people on I guess, while keeping enough distance, I sort of mean it as a challenge (ridiculous because I'm no prize), expect people to keep pushing, always happy when people realize they have to ask me multiple times to give me a drink or something (I mean I automatically expect people to try to persuade me but some people don't), but I always feel like they got a clue to my whole personality from that, or I love teasing dogs with toys lol, always think people can understand more about me from seeing that lol

But this is in sort-of general situations, if I really like love someone and want to keep them in my life I don't want to risk it by unnecessary games...also I'm a pretty needy person and I try to play the waiting game more than I actually do :/

can never resist temptation to make the most of an interaction, which prevents me from seeming like there are a lot of hurdles to get to me, think it's pretty obvious to everyone that I'd go to the first taker who's prepared for it lol

I mean like to think of myself as sorta Turandot, men have to answer three riddles for the honour of my hand lol, but reality of my life is that I am not the princess of China that all men will die to marry, more like poor baker's fifth daughter who he is desperate to marry off to anyone who'll take her, basically ugly girls can't play the same games as pretty girls and I think that's clear and demonstrable, think I know pretty well my...price, and negotiate within those terms?

(that sounds horrible but yeah)



> Should be self-evident.


hate it when people do this


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## Dangerose

also I'm a lot more open and such on here than irl, in almost any situation, I guess I don't have a lot of 'defenses' that I'll answer almost any question honestly, don't have a filter really for that, but I try to be as 100% honest as possible here to show my type as well as, it is fun to have a venue to do that :/


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## Rose for a Heart

@*Nissa Nissa* 

um I don’t really understand the screenshots, so I will comment on the other stuff. I guess I can see why you might be feeling more victim/aggressor from what you have said in that post anyway. I also suspect high dimensional Se based on how it sometimes pops up out of nowhere, but quite strongly, and I think I’m seeing hints of that in your last post as well...I guess maybe we can rule out infantile (?) for you since they have Se in their super-ego, and at least speaking for myself, I’m honest and I don’t like “torturing” people and if placed in that situation myself it’s extremely triggering for me.


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## Darkbloom

Do most people feel like sp first makes sense for me?
It's odd in some ways, don't relate to most of the stuff from sp descriptions, sp first combined with Si sounds insane to me.


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*Nissa Nissa*
> 
> um I don’t really understand the screenshots, so I will comment on the other stuff. I guess I can see why you might be feeling more victim/aggressor from what you have said in that post anyway. I also suspect high dimensional Se based on how it sometimes pops up out of nowhere, but quite strongly, and I think I’m seeing hints of that in your last post as well...I guess maybe we can rule out infantile (?) for you since they have Se in their super-ego, and at least speaking for myself, I’m honest and I don’t like “torturing” people and if placed in that situation myself it’s extremely triggering for me.


Sorry, they were out of context, just thought they were kind-of funny out of context and illustrating Beta romance styles description)) but yeah ignore it

Yeah, you see high-dimensional Se? (I mean obviously you do if you think ESE) And you don't think it could be HA, Ni aside?
4D Se kinda confuses me for myself, I mean I _don't_ think I'm the least Se person ever, but having time dimension or anything on Se is a bit surprising, can other people see it?
and yes I love torturing people :hotneko: though actually that is not what I said lol, and imagine even if it was it would be 2/2 line to 8?



Vixey said:


> Do most people feel like sp first makes sense for me?
> It's odd in some ways, don't relate to most of the stuff from sp descriptions, sp first combined with Si sounds insane to me.


Feel annoying always being almost the only one answering your questions, but I have no idea, used to make sense because of sp 2 and you spoke about it convincingly, but you could have been confusing sp and Si the whole time or :/ idk


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Nissa Nissa your Se shows up when put on the defense. It’s high dimensional because it accomplishes what the element is meant for - using force and sheer will to bend the environment to what you want it to. I’m not saying people literally give in when you are aggressive, some might and some might not but the point I’m making is that the difference between high and low dimensional Se is that low Se may try to do that very thing and typically not succeed, or even be all that intimidating.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Vixey said:


> Yeah :/
> ESEs and SEIs I know are like that, at least one LSE too.
> 
> And this is why I kept mentioning being 'aggressive' in some ways as an argument against SFJ
> 
> Even a SFJ 3 I know is like this.
> 
> But as always it's possible I just type caregiver-y people as caregivers and non caregiver-y caregivers as something else.
> 
> Not quite related but the main thing about Alpha SF, I imagine it as this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (makes sense for Fe and lower Ne?)
> 
> This is sooo Si/Ne
> 
> 
> 
> :disgust:
> 
> 
> I mean I know it's the kind of songs she has to have but like it's definitely songs written for Si/Ne valuers, loved making fun of things like that when I was younger
> 
> (also I don't hate Selena Gomez, used to be obsessed with some of her songs)


Haha, I agree, pretty much have the same reaction to those songs, and I think she's a xSFJ 2w3 (w/ 9-fix). She feels so bland. I don't really think you and her would be that similar.



> Or like better because it's 2w3 and line to 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But like...isn't this so SFJ-ish still, even though it's aggressive? In ways I'm not?
> She never seems to I guess own her power in Se valuing way to me, that's how I often see Alpha SFs.


Hmm, to me this is a lot less SFJ-ish/Alpha than Selena, and could even see it being Beta, like ousting your enemy and shaming them in public with a song. She does that _all the time_. I also feel like she's more on the Victim/Aggressor spectrum, and would obviously be more Victim than Aggressor (like how she made fun of herself in LWYMMD, "There she goes playing the victim, again..."), while Selena is more obviously Caregiver/Infantile and Alpha to me, and they're both 2w3s, but Taylor feels more out for blood than Selena (perhaps Se Demo vs Se Ignoring), you know? Remember how Taylor Swift was described by Katy Perry as Regina George, and as we talked before, Regina's Beta (and Social 2, though). There are definitely SFJ-ish things about her too, but always felt like Taylor was more NFJ for some reason than SFJ, like you can tell there's a difference between Selena and her, even though every one types her as SFJ. 

Again, this song feels a bit Beta too, or more pseduo-Beta; Think Kendrick is Beta and IEI, though:





This is far more Beta to me (How did he lose to Taylor for Album of the Year that year...:angry

Think this line speaks to Beta quadra complex of subservience:


> From a peasant to a prince to a motherfuckin' king







Though, this shit is so Si + Ne HA...



> “I've apparently been the victim of growing up, which apparently happens to all of us at one point or another. It's been going on for quite some time now, without me knowing it. I've found that growing up can mean a lot of things. *For me, it doesn't mean I should become somebody completely new and stop loving the things I used to love. It means I've just added more things to my list. Like for example, I'm still beyond obsessed with the winter season and I still start putting up strings of lights in September. I still love sparkles and grocery shopping and really old cats that are only nice to you half the time. I still love writing in my journal and wearing dresses all the time and staring at chandeliers. But some new things I've fallen in love with -- mismatched everything. Mismatched chairs, mismatched colors, mismatched personalities. I love spraying perfumes I used to wear when I was in high school. It brings me back to the days of trying to get a close parking spot at school, trying to get noticed by soccer players, and trying to figure out how to avoid doing or saying anything uncool, and wishing every minute of every day that one day maybe I'd get a chance to win a Grammy. Or something crazy and out of reach like that.  I love old buildings with the paint chipping off the walls and my dad's stories about college. I love the freedom of living alone, but I also love things that make me feel seven again. Back then naivety was the norm and skepticism was a foreign language, and I just think every once in a while you need fries and a chocolate milkshake and your mom. I love picking up a cookbook and closing my eyes and opening it to a random page, then attempting to make that recipe.* I've loved my fans from the very first day, but they've said things and done things recently that make me feel like they're my friends -- more now than ever before. I'll never go a day without thinking about our memories together.”





> "I love bright colors and things that make reality seem more whimsical than it is. I have a collection of ribbons and headbands, and I love them all the same. I over-think and over-plan and over-organize. I've been like this since I was a baby, before I was gigantically tall and over-talkative."


And Ti-seeking:



> "These days, I've been trying to classify my thoughts into two categories: "Things I can change," and "Things I can't." It seems to help me sort through what to really stress about. But there I go again, over-planning and over-organizing my over-thinking!"





Vixey said:


> Could someone see ILE?


LOL no, banish this thought from your mind at once! :tongue:



Vixey said:


> Yeah, same-ish :/
> 
> I mean...I talk about it all the time, don't want to repeat myself too much, already said how unlike you I definitely notice I'm hungry and like...I'm aware of how things are affecting me physically or otherwise but only as long as they make me feel something, I don't notice and struggle to care if I failed to follow some Si rule like eating vegetables or whatever, although I do like...spent last three months waiting for the right moment to start paying attention to my health or something, now I finally can because there's more of acceptable kinds of fruit available and other things, don't feel like talking about it lol, but can't tell if it's Sp or Si or anti Sp or Si.
> Basically I only eat ok in summer and it's starting to bother me (used to not care at all, still mostly care about appearance and well I don't want to die but feel like taking care of Si is unlikely to stop death anyway) but don't know what to do about it other than wait and hope I survive till the raspberry season.
> 
> Or like this is random but I have a couple of moles I'm paranoid about but don't feel like I can go to the doctor, can't even explain it, yesterday I was checking myself for ticks (I went hiking) and occurred to me to ask my dad to look at parts of my skin, like ask to check for ticks but actually wanted him to notice my moles (hate this sentence and the word mole, sorry :laughing: ), send me to the doctor if he thinks it's neccessary, would be so much easier that way and I just can't imagine deciding to go to the doctor and then going all on my own initiative, but then I changed my mind (mostly for unrelated reasons, well didn't want him to get mad at me about something)
> 
> Could that be Si seeking? Si base/caregiver that's somehow in the opposite role?
> 
> Doesn't sound like Si base and sp combined?
> But it also feels like it could be related to extreme degree of one or the other I think.


Yeah, can't say that is on my mind all that much, until I see something out of the ordinary, and then I freak out because, "What is this!?" :shocked: I have stories where I start to attribute more to something that has always been there on my body, but never noticed it before. 

So, yeah, don't know if what you say is Si or sp, feels a bit of both, but I know I have a weird relationship with sp or Si? 



> (sorry for talking about myself lol, just confused about instincts, I'm not sure but sp dom (for you) is making much less sense than before)


Yeah, I think so too. I mean, always related to the sp-4 idea of being stoic and enduring, and that's mainly why I typed as sp-4, while also saying I was terrible at sp and attributing that to weak Si, so something doesn't add up. I actually don't think I'm that stoic, enduring for sure, but thinking now the stoicism was more from depression. Anyone who is depressed is going to look stoic. I also wasn't ever really stoic growing up either, even up through high school. I compare myself to my 4w5 sp/sx, and he does seem very stoic in a way that I'm not, and also focuses on sp in a way that I don't either. His social blindspot is so obvious to me, though.



Nissa Nissa said:


> edit: not actually edit but so busy/this is taking forever to respond to so I'll save other things for later but about your instincts, think I'd lean so/sx really, don't see any real reason for sp second, and I think the subtypes are largely disregardable?


I don't think it's as crazy to be not sx-last as I originally believed, and so/sx doesn't really seem that off to me either, but can't find the sp/so/sx description I was looking for right now to comment.



> K, interesting - remember reading this before, not relatable, ALpha 'open mouth' thing was more relatable I think (people never let me talk!)
> 
> _Beta Quadra is afraid of:
> - having to part with their honor and dignity, a privileged position in society; Not especially, pretentious enough that I would prefer to occupy privileged position in society but don't think it's a complex with me
> - being plunged into poverty, to a position without rights, being lowered in rank;hard for me to actually conceptualize things like poverty and rights, not something I really think about, when I was a teenager I would stress a lot about if I would have to become a prostitute, apparently thought this was really likely or something, but what I worried about most about with my future was about my personal happiness I guess as well as that kind of 'honor' like of not being prostitute, worried about not being married and not having any place in life, mostly just about being alone though
> - being forced out of the privileged strata and thrown to the bottom of society;hard to be kicked out of somewhere you never were
> - being demoted, deprived of rank, title, privileges and powers; if I had those things i wouldn't want to lose them lol but idk
> - humiliating reprisals and punishments; Not really, for example in Game of Thrones there's a seen where Cersei is made to walk through the city naked while people said 'shame shame shame' and everyone was talking about how horrifying that was to see, didn't really get it, of course I wouldn't want that but it didn't strike any chord, anything that's just a walk through the city does not seem like a horrible punishment to me
> - dependency on someone else's evil will;wouldn't want it but :/
> - uncertainty concerning own social status and position, slander, libel, false accusations;I know like 10 people, this isn't a worry for me ahahaha
> - afraid of collusions and conspiracies behind his back, of rumors, gossip, backstabbing, intrigues and betrayal;I don't work for a spy business so no, if I thought there were intrigues going around I'd be very happy indeed
> - afraid of all that would obstruct him from surviving and restoring own social status under extreme circumstances.no
> but I'm not a sp 6 too?
> 
> Beta Quadra doesn't tolerate attacks on their social standing, on their rank, position, rights and privileges: they don't tolerate when their rights and rank advantages are being challenged, they don't tolerate familiarity in attitudes of others, in jest or serious, and can't stand ridicule that could create false impression of their inability to fend for themselves. This seems like a description of 6s with no sense of humour, never met someone like this
> 
> Beta Quadra doesn't tolerate:
> - confusion in the chain of command and subordinate relations;I do realllllly like strict hierarchy to know where things really stand, I like to know exactly what I'm allowed to do and not, what would be a liberty and what wouldn't be, feel really confused outside of this
> - departures from etiquette and protocol;Used to be really strict about etiquette and had a very prescriptivist idea of how people should behave, but I've got over that
> - disrespect for position and rank - deliberately derogatory or humorously familiar attitudes;again I remember being a little more like this as a kid, really horrified me when kids called teachers by their first names (which is fairly common in the States), hated when adults acted like they were my friends or something when I knew they were bending down to do that, didn't like it when people sounded disrespectful about world leaders or whatever, liked to tell people how they still deserved respect for occupying that position, no longer think this way, though I'd find it difficult to break rank or whatever
> - infringement on their personal rights, goals, ambitions, desecration of their honor and dignity;No ida what this would look like, the world is not crawling with enemies of mine
> - misconduct, disobedience, insubordination, disrespectful or unacceptable behavior within the hierarchy, society, system.Not sure, probably not, tend to be more sympathetic to the trouble-makers?
> _
> Do you relate to this?


I can't say I really do, and like you said, feels 6-ish, and especially Social 6, and very influenced by Russian society too. Seems like those are the more Ti-ish parts too. I mean, is a Hamlet caring about his rank/position in society and falling behind? Subconsciously maybe with his uncle taking the throne away from him, but don't remember that being too explicit in his monologues and seeking revenge for those reasons. Probably this part for him, though: "afraid of collusions and conspiracies behind his back, of rumors, gossip, backstabbing, intrigues and betrayal," and this towards his mother, "misconduct, disobedience, insubordination, disrespectful or unacceptable behavior within the hierarchy, society, system".

As far as Romance styles, I can say I'm for sure not a Caregiver or Aggressor. Remember when DavidH said I was ESE? :bored:And why would ENTjs be under Victim?  I don't care for Gulenko all that much. Cognitive Styles anyone? He also types Donald Trump as SEE too, and he's SLE and very clearly Fe-valuing.



> I don't disagree, tbh this video and other team things like that make me feel kinda...embarrassed, in a way it's like they're acting vulnerable and emotional in this video, which is ridiculous because they are like warriors but idk it's uncomfortable for me to watch that video, in similar way I find it uncomfortable when a large crowd of people is singing all together, something about it is embarrassing to me, hard to explain though, but on very basic level, thought it might have something to do with social instinct but it could be Fi valuing thing?


Yeah, could be Fi-valuing for you, because those things are pretty Fe, but also think a lot of football players do that sort of thing too, like it's a part of the culture, and don't think every football player who does that would have to be Beta. Although, not saying that person in example isn't Beta, or isn't an example of a Beta, as I don't know who they are. 

It makes me think of this, and think Sparta is probably one of the most Beta ST civilizations ever to exist:


----------



## Rose for a Heart

What do you think of this, @Nissa Nissa? 



> Romantic relationships usually evolve from sharing activities and interests for fun in a two-person version of the group behavior description above. Priority is given to keeping the partner happy in the sense of a good mood and amused on a daily basis, with avoidance of direct accusations or unnecessarily harsh criticism; relationships are seen as a source of day-to-day fun and happiness. Focus on remembering dates of particular significance and celebrating them. Playful interactions are based around light teasing and making the partner laugh; intimate atmospheres are based on generating a comfortable, welcoming, cozy atmosphere.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I have also been thinking about the whole Delta quadra and apparently their...I suppose romance language resembling "wholesome family stuff" and being "unsexy." I do understand where the "wholesome" part is coming from, and that also can depend on the individual, culture, age, etc. but I disagree with the phrasing of it I guess. The "family stuff" part makes me cringe. What I will admit though is for them, at least it is for me, the sexuality is tied in with _love_, so that much is true. But I would never in a million years consider the dynamic unsexy. People are into what they are into, and some people are drawn to...innocence. Not every Delta quadra member is like that of course, there's always variation. But as an SX first I could never settle for something anything less than all-consuming and passionate. Because then I would know I have found "it," whatever _it _is.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Recently realized that it seems like I have all 4 quadras in my close family. Probably one of the reasons why nobody can agree with anyone about most things.


----------



## Paradigm

Mr Castelo said:


> Recently realized that it seems like I have all 4 quadras in my close family. Probably one of the reasons why nobody can agree with anyone about most things.


My family is... overwhelmingly Gamma and Beta. There's some Alpha/Delta but funnily enough they seem to have married into us, not related xD

Idk how the quadras are supposed to get along (or if I believe the "accepted" models are altogether correct), but Alphas seem the most likely to be put off. ILEs seem easiest to adapt, and then, oddly, ESEs. I get the impression we bowl over SEIs, and LSEs are bored by us.


----------



## Paradigm

Mr Castelo said:


> Why would 459 be surprising? Tbh, I don't take tritype nearly as serious as I take the instinctual variants, for example.


So... In retrospect, I shouldn't have posted. I'm recovering from a cold, which in "chronically ill" people means it's almost flu-like in draining energy and sometimes even symptoms... So apparently my Te took a fricking holiday and I can't concisely/accurately verbalize any of my damn thoughts >_<

Really glad to hear you don't seem inclined to hinge things off tritype. It's easy to make the mistake of using it as a "crutch," but placing variants over tritype is indeed way more important! 

You don't strike me as triple-withdrawn. You strike me as introverted, and they are not the same. The biggest thing is you might have a Reactive fix, but it might not be 4. But I will admit to having bias against the 459 tritype, and I get a lot of flack for it. But even you pointed out it's the "oh you're an introvert" type, which feels like the main reason people go for it.



> In what way do I display more "Competency"? I suppose that can also be attributed to my sp/so stacking.


I guess it could be your SP/SO, except that I'm not really prone to assuming SP/SO = "businesslike" or "aloof." Could be a 9 SP/SO might be that way, as I have little experience with SP/SO 9. (I do know a 3w4 SP/SO [I think] but I've always guessed it's the 3w4 and ESTJ in em.)

One of the ways - or rather, the easiest way to talk about - I "measure" Competency is the way people hold themselves and communicate. Competency types are generally concise, controlled. My own Competency is shown in more behavioral/moral ways than writing/talking. Now, admittedly, these things could come down to many factors (education, environment, gender roles, etc.), which is why I tried to stress my impressions could change.



> I guess I can see your reasoning here, and I don't think all 3s are rich sociopaths either, but I won't claim that my understanding of type 3 is the best. Just never related that much to any of type 3's struggles or desires, at least not on a conscious level. I can see myself having a 6 fix, 97x is out of the table, no way in hell I have that much Positive Outlook in my being.
> Between 2 and 4, I relate more to 4, sorry, lol. I'm aware of the introverted bias, but even 3 seems more likely than 2.


Oh, sorry, I was being _very _brief and facetious about the 3 bit :laughing:

Don't apologize, you relate to what you relate to! It's tangetial at best, and I'm very uncomfortable naming names, but you remind me a little of someone from a long time ago who did a questionnaire and had (to me) clear 3w4 undertones (a fix), but insisted on 4w3. That's perfectly fine, no one is inside your head except yourself (well, I hope, anyway).

If you don't mind: How do you feel about failure? What do you want to do with your life? What causes you shame?



> I've asked a few of them, and most of them were basing their reasonings on the descriptions of the tritype as a whole (which I'm sure is not supposed to be the best method). Others just seemed to think that I'm too passive to be 359 or 459.


Yeah... That's a _really _bad method of typing tritype, wow.
I'm also irrationally annoyed that apparently 259 is "more passive" than 459. That makes so little sense to me. 2s (and 1/6) aren't yesmen. I mean, sure, 4 is Reactive, but also Withdrawn, and if you put three Withdrawns into a pile, _guess what's probably going to dominate,_ especially as a 9 core. That might make sense if you typed at 4 core, but... no >_<



> 3: I guess I do care about my image to some extent, I don't know if this suggests anything type-wise or if it's just a basic human trait. I don't wish to be seen as a role model, but I do want to be seen as at least competent.


I don't know if 3 wants to be a role model, per se, they just want to be successful at what they choose. They do want recognition for those things, of course (as do most humans), and get tetchy if that doesn't happen.
FWIW, as someone who really doesn't have much 3, I rarely care how I look, and if I do it's because I know there's expectations put on me, not because I actually care. (My dad's SO/SP and has a heavy 2w3 fix, and the fact I don't care has been slightly contentious at times.)



> 4: I'm more familiar than I'd like to admit with the sentiment of feeling defective and "too different for this world".


How come?
This might sound rude, but... throughout the years, I'm becoming more convinced "feeling defective" and the like is more commonly "basic human" vs like you said the 3 image focus is "basic human." Too many factors to go into why I feel that way, though, sorry.



> 5: Many things sound familiar to me in this type, the detachment, feeling like the world is overwhelming, feeling like others want way more from me than what I could possibly give, desire to "master" things, etc.


The middle of that is SP, imo. Could the "detachment" be 9-based, or 9+Ni? Why do you want to "master" things? What kinds of things?



> 6: I've felt paranoid for a short period of time in my life, and I always check with my self if I'm being "too trusting" of others. I don't have trust issues, but I am wary of people in general. Sometimes, I can also struggle with self-doubt.


Too vague to be helpful. Have you read this description? (I know you might not relate much because it's not your core, but have a go at it.)


----------



## Mr Castelo

Paradigm said:


> My family is... overwhelmingly Gamma and Beta. There's some Alpha/Delta but funnily enough they seem to have married into us, not related xD
> 
> Idk how the quadras are supposed to get along (or if I believe the "accepted" models are altogether correct), but Alphas seem the most likely to be put off. ILEs seem easiest to adapt, and then, oddly, ESEs. I get the impression we bowl over SEIs, and LSEs are bored by us.


My dad's side seems mostly Se-valuing, so a mix of Gamma and Beta, while my mom's side seems very Alpha. The Delta comes with my brother, who is LSE. I can't tell who creates more conflict, him or my SEE brother. Both of my parents seem to be more collectivists than individualistic (Fe vs Fi, I'd guess), yet all of their sons are strongly individualistic, so there's this weird dynamic. I don't get in conflicts very much, but miscommunication happens a lot.


----------



## Darkbloom

Can't respond to everything now, on my way to college, but this seems sooooo Si/Ne imo?


> “I've apparently been the victim of growing up, which apparently happens to all of us at one point or another. It's been going on for quite some time now, without me knowing it. I've found that growing up can mean a lot of things. For me, it doesn't mean I should become somebody completely new and stop loving the things I used to love. It means I've just added more things to my list. Like for example, I'm still beyond obsessed with the winter season and I still start putting up strings of lights in September. I still love sparkles and grocery shopping and really old cats that are only nice to you half the time. I still love writing in my journal and wearing dresses all the time and staring at chandeliers. But some new things I've fallen in love with -- mismatched everything. Mismatched chairs, mismatched colors, mismatched personalities. I love spraying perfumes I used to wear when I was in high school. It brings me back to the days of trying to get a close parking spot at school, trying to get noticed by soccer players, and trying to figure out how to avoid doing or saying anything uncool, and wishing every minute of every day that one day maybe I'd get a chance to win a Grammy. Or something crazy and out of reach like that.  I love old buildings with the paint chipping off the walls and my dad's stories about college. I love the freedom of living alone, but I also love things that make me feel seven again. Back then naivety was the norm and skepticism was a foreign language, and I just think every once in a while you need fries and a chocolate milkshake and your mom. I love picking up a cookbook and closing my eyes and opening it to a random page, then attempting to make that recipe


As @mistakenforstranger said , sounds so Si and Ne HA, especially mismatched everything part :laughing:


(I don't feel like I am like this but maybe could be similar except very so last by comparison or something)

And well not sure, I get how she's Beta-ish but think it could be So first 2w3, Selena Gomez seems very 9w1 fixed, Taylor 1w2, they do definitely seem different, she just seems so Si/Ne to me despite not having the same vibe as Selena (also think probably SEI for Selena?)

She does seem i guess colder or something than I'd expect from So 2w3 ESFJ.
(dont think colder is the right word but less exuberant and such)


edit: Ariana Grande seems more Se valuing from what I know about her (not much admittedly)
edit 2: but apparently she gets typed as ESFJ a lot


----------



## Mr Castelo

Paradigm said:


> So... In retrospect, I shouldn't have posted. I'm recovering from a cold, which in "chronically ill" people means it's almost flu-like in draining energy and sometimes even symptoms... So apparently my Te took a fricking holiday and I can't concisely/accurately verbalize any of my damn thoughts >_<


If you're still recovering, maybe it would be better to put this off for later.



> You don't strike me as triple-withdrawn. You strike me as introverted, and they are not the same. The biggest thing is you might have a Reactive fix, but it might not be 4. But I will admit to having bias against the 459 tritype, and I get a lot of flack for it. But even you pointed out it's the "oh you're an introvert" type, which feels like the main reason people go for it.


Actually, the first tritype I ever considered for me was 359, but that was long ago, before I dug deeper into the Enneagram, I can't even remember the reasoning I had for it back then. But I remember not liking type 4 very much, because I thought it was all about wanting to be special, which looked too special snow-flakey for me.



> I guess it could be your SP/SO, except that I'm not really prone to assuming SP/SO = "businesslike" or "aloof." Could be a 9 SP/SO might be that way, as I have little experience with SP/SO 9. (I do know a 3w4 SP/SO [I think] but I've always guessed it's the 3w4 and ESTJ in em.)


Might just be me being INTJ too. I did make the association of sp/so = more businesslike (perhaps "pragmatic" is the better word), because I think it fits me, and it seems to fit other sp/so people that I know too to some extent. I recognize that I may be biased in my observations.



> One of the ways - or rather, the easiest way to talk about - I "measure" Competency is the way people hold themselves and communicate. Competency types are generally concise, controlled. My own Competency is shown in more behavioral/moral ways than writing/talking. Now, admittedly, these things could come down to many factors (education, environment, gender roles, etc.), which is why I tried to stress my impressions could change.


Fair enough.



> Oh, sorry, I was being _very _brief and facetious about the 3 bit :laughing:


Ha, it's okay.



> Don't apologize, you relate to what you relate to! It's tangetial at best, and I'm very uncomfortable naming names, but you remind me a little of someone from a long time ago who did a questionnaire and had (to me) clear 3w4 undertones (a fix), but insisted on 4w3. That's perfectly fine, no one is inside your head except yourself (well, I hope, anyway).
> 
> If you don't mind: How do you feel about failure? What do you want to do with your life? What causes you shame?


1. Well, I can certainly feel terrible about failure, it's not something that I can easily overcome. I try to focus on what went wrong and fixing it instead of just delving into the feeling of failure, although that can be hard.
2. I'm a creative writer, so I want to write books and collect stories. I feel like I might have something important to say. I also want to become someone self-sustainable enough to live on my own terms.
3. Shame is connected to failure, and feeling like my biggest flaws are being exposed, specially to someone I respect/admire. Not something that I feel frequently, but that might be its biggest source.



> Yeah... That's a _really _bad method of typing tritype, wow.
> I'm also irrationally annoyed that apparently 259 is "more passive" than 459. That makes so little sense to me. 2s (and 1/6) aren't yesmen. I mean, sure, 4 is Reactive, but also Withdrawn, and if you put three Withdrawns into a pile, _guess what's probably going to dominate,_ especially as a 9 core. That might make sense if you typed at 4 core, but... no >_<


Yeah, I agree it's a bad reasoning.



> I don't know if 3 wants to be a role model, per se, they just want to be successful at what they choose. They do want recognition for those things, of course (as do most humans), and get tetchy if that doesn't happen.
> FWIW, as someone who really doesn't have much 3, I rarely care how I look, and if I do it's because I know there's expectations put on me, not because I actually care. (My dad's SO/SP and has a heavy 2w3 fix, and the fact I don't care has been slightly contentious at times.)


Well, I do want to be successful, just not sure about the recognition thing. For example, my friends know that I'm good at drawing, but I rarely show my "drawing skills" to people and I rarely feel any desire to do so, even though I know from experience that they're likely to be well-received. Recognition is often synonimous with unwanted attention and building up expectations, which feel suffocating to me. I'd say I desire respect more than recognition.



> How come?
> This might sound rude, but... throughout the years, I'm becoming more convinced "feeling defective" and the like is more commonly "basic human" vs like you said the 3 image focus is "basic human." Too many factors to go into why I feel that way, though, sorry.


I agree with you, feeling like you're flawed is a fairly human thing, you don't need any complex reason to believe so. In a way, all 9 types are "basic human" things, so maybe I shouldn't have added that comment in the first place.

As for "how come"... That's a tough question to answer. I'm so self-conscious of my flaws that I could probably write a 200 pages long novel about them. What I can say about this is that I feel like, in some quite deep level, I'm unable to connect to other people, or that there is some "human" factor that I'm missing somehow. I've always been noticed by others as being "odd" in my personality, introversion itself is something that most people that I know can't seem to grasp. I've had plenty of bad experiences in the past that I'd rather not disclose here that can justify that feeling.



> The middle of that is SP, imo. Could the "detachment" be 9-based, or 9+Ni?


Possible. I've been trying to tell SP and type 5 apart for the longest time, with minimal success. The same can be said about detachmend and 9+Ni.



> Why do you want to "master" things? What kinds of things?


1. That's a good question, I'm not sure of the answer myself. Might be connected to my fear of failure.
2. Lots of things. Could be a videogame, could be a subject in school or a language -- anything that seems interesting and/or useful. But to be fair, I'm not a master at everything I do, and sometimes I lose the motivation to try.



> Too vague to be helpful. Have you read this description? (I know you might not relate much because it's not your core, but have a go at it.)


Yes, I've read that description. To be honest, barely anything there seems relatable. I can doubt myself and others, but never to the extent that it is described in Sixes. My mom is type 6 (also sp/so), and my reaction to most of her doubts/worries is "you're probably overreacting". I am a fairly anxious person, but it is usually not related to trust.


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Nissa Nissa your Se shows up when put on the defense. It’s high dimensional because it accomplishes what the element is meant for - using force and sheer will to bend the environment to what you want it to. I’m not saying people literally give in when you are aggressive, some might and some might not but the point I’m making is that the difference between high and low dimensional Se is that low Se may try to do that very thing and typically not succeed, or even be all that intimidating.


Am I intimidating then? :kitteh:



Rose for a Heart said:


> What do you think of this, @Nissa Nissa?
> 
> Romantic relationships usually evolve from sharing activities and interests for fun in a two-person version of the group behavior description above. Priority is given to keeping the partner happy in the sense of a good mood and *amused on a daily basis*, with avoidance of direct accusations or unnecessarily harsh criticism; relationships are seen as a source of day-to-day fun and happiness.* Focus on remembering dates of particular significance and celebrating them.* Playful interactions are based around light teasing and *making the partner laugh*; intimate atmospheres are based on generating a comfortable, *welcoming*, cozy *atmosphere.*


Doesn't sound like me in general I think, bolded things that are probably relatable
Sounds sorta like fake way of existence, or description just sounds like loveless relationship to me lol, not against light teasing and putting the other person in a good mood but it feels like if that's all you have left that's...quite sad almost, same with remembering anniversaries or whatever, think that's fine but it seems like when you need to have an anniversary all special-like is when your relationship is already not going that well, can easily imagine relationship where we don't care about our anniversary, at least that's something I never imagine, more parties are always good but life should feel enough like a party every day with someone that you don't need those extra ones (exaggerating a little for effect)

I mean it sounds so shallow and passionless, I imagine it's actually describing something I wouldn't have too much of a problem with, except the part about always being in a good mood, I'd rather fight with someone _a lot _if it didn't feel like we were going to fall apart, than never fight and just smile at each other and talk about our days like the same conversations I had with my mom after I came home from school, that said no I wouldn't want to be constantly dealing with direct accusations and unnecessary harsh criticism, because I would not want my relationship to feel like a police state, also lots of criticism would make me think someone was about to break up with me and that's also not a good feeling to have...but I'd still want honesty and not just 'conversations to keep us in a good mood'

But that doesn't sound like it's about me, I guess


----------



## owlet

Mr Castelo said:


> Okay, I'll just do the "how I relate to each of the types" thing since it's easier.
> 
> 1: I'm a perfectionist, I can obsess over every single detail to get my work to "be perfect". I'm also highly self-critical, but not so much of others. I don't relate to the moralist traits of the type, however.
> 
> 2: I really struggle to come up with anything that remotely sounds like type 2.
> 
> 3: I guess I do care about my image to some extent, I don't know if this suggests anything type-wise or if it's just a basic human trait. I don't wish to be seen as a role model, but I do want to be seen as at least competent.
> 
> 4: I'm more familiar than I'd like to admit with the sentiment of feeling defective and "too different for this world".
> 
> 5: Many things sound familiar to me in this type, the detachment, feeling like the world is overwhelming, feeling like others want way more from me than what I could possibly give, desire to "master" things, etc.
> 
> 6: I've felt paranoid for a short period of time in my life, and I always check with my self if I'm being "too trusting" of others. I don't have trust issues, but I am wary of people in general. Sometimes, I can also struggle with self-doubt.
> 
> 7: Hard to come up with anything that fits. I don't feel like I distract myself much at all, and I rarely see the "fun" in things.
> 
> 8: Also hard for me to come up with anything here.
> 
> 9: Apathy, feeling like I'm utterly indifferent to the world around me. I feel like I've rejected the world, or given up on it to some extent, it is one of my innermost feelings.


Which sources have you been using for enneagram, out of interest? I'm finding it hard to see core fears coming through from what you've written here. I couldn't even say 9 was your main type from these. (Sorry if that's unhelpful.)


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Nissa Nissa you’re not “intimidating” you just seem to misuse Se when you do use it. As for the rest of it, I would agree that Socionics descriptions lack SX. I want to ask you something, I hope it does not offend you. How much do you want to, or are trying to _look_ like victim/aggressor? I do get the feeling that you’re very typical alpha quadra “Merry” to the point you actually dislike Fi, you have said as much yourself (implied) yet you made an effort to appear IEE in your video, and it didn’t feel like a good reflection of your persona on here. I’m sure that IS a very significant part of you of course, but I’m getting confused and skeptical. I’m sorry there’s not any better way to say this. 
The romance style of Alpha feels like a natural extension of your personality on here, and perhaps you would like a bit of victim/aggressor dynamic as well, but as of now most of what you’ve said sounds...normal. Not specifically either of those types.


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Nissa Nissa you’re not “intimidating” you just seem to misuse Se when you do use it.


Isn't that in line with what you said about lower valued Se then? 
Do other people agree? 



> As for the rest of it, I would agree that Socionics descriptions lack SX. I want to ask you something, I hope it does not offend you. How much do you want to, or are trying to _look_ like victim/aggressor?



Right now I'm focusing on it I guess but genuinely relate more to that one, not 'trying to look like it', trying to be as honest as possible 
Why is Remnants not finding caregiver/infantile appealing a sign that she's Se-Ni valuing even when she relates but it's trying to seem like something I'm not when it's me?



> I do get the feeling that you’re very typical alpha quadra “Merry” to the point you actually dislike Fi, you have said as much yourself (implied) yet *you made an effort to appear IEE in your video*, and it didn’t feel like a good reflection of your persona on here.


??
Was not trying to appear as any type on my video, that would defeat the point a bit
If it seemed so different from my persona on here (do other people agree?) surely the one where I'm physically present is more accurate than on here?
Assure you I'm not trying to put on a persona, on here or in video, of course I don't come off exactly the same if I'm typing than if I'm speaking :/



> I’m sure that IS a very significant part of you of course, but I’m getting confused and skeptical. I’m sorry there’s not any better way to say this.


Skeptical makes it seem like I'm trying to trick people 



> The romance style of Alpha feels like a natural extension of your personality on here, and perhaps you would like a bit of victim/aggressor dynamic as well, but as of now most of what you’ve said sounds...normal. Not specifically either of those types.


Ok?


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Nissa Nissa said:


> Right now I'm focusing on it I guess but genuinely relate more to that one, not 'trying to look like it', trying to be as honest as possible
> 
> ??
> Was not trying to appear as any type on my video, that would defeat the point a bit
> If it seemed so different from my persona on here (do other people agree?) surely the one where I'm physically present is more accurate than on here?
> Assure you I'm not trying to put on a persona, on here or in video, of course I don't come off exactly the same if I'm typing than if I'm speaking :/


ok



> Why is Remnants not finding caregiver/infantile appealing a sign that she's Se-Ni valuing even when she relates but it's trying to seem like something I'm not when it's me?


I mean, I didn't say she is Se-Ni (?) You seem to be reading things into it that aren't there. I was actually wondering about Ni-Se. Anyways, I don't know what type Remnants is, and I don't necessarily think she _has _to be mistyped. It was about the portrayal of those two types and one apparently being shown as "better" than another, which I just...disagree with.

Anyways, I have wondered about Ti grip for you...I guess that's possible, and would make more sense than LSE typing anyway. 

http://weirdfella.tumblr.com/post/110617755144/in-the-grip-our-hidden-personality-by-naomi-l
http://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/post/120275917697/mbti-development-esfj


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> ok
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, I didn't say she is Se-Ni (?) You seem to be reading things into it that aren't there. I was actually wondering about Ni-Se. Anyways, I don't know what type Remnants is, and I don't necessarily think she _has _to be mistyped. It was about the portrayal of those two types and one apparently being shown as "better" than another, which I just...disagree with.
> 
> Anyways, I have wondered about Ti grip for you...I guess that's possible, and would make more sense than LSE typing anyway.
> 
> MBTI & Enneagram | In The Grip â€“ Our Hidden Personality by Naomi L....
> MBTI & Development: ESFJ - Type Theory


Yeah I was just putting those in whatever order
Did sound like you were saying Ni-Se anyways, anyways it doesn't matter



> under intense stress or in the grip of Ti: excessive criticizing, nagging, complaining, self-pitying, manipulate others to get their own way, try to involve others in problems, try to shed responsibilities, use extreme and convoluted logic to justify their ideas/behaviors, compulsively search for the truth behind some conflict


this sounds like me?
(I mean it doesn't sound like the worst thing ever but I'm not sure, want to confirm I guess)

first link sounds like it's talking about 6s and 9s, very unrelatable I think (second list isn't the worst)










don't even have anything to say :/

Why grip of Ti?

Can anyone see ILE? think it would be a little crazy but if I don't come off as having good Fi...


----------



## Dangerose

thought of it because one of the segments on ESFJs there was labelled 'Power and Control', Marina seems like female aggressor/one way that might show up






And there are girls I know who I think are Se egos and they don't exactly ~chase~ guys afaik but it really makes sense that they'd be aggressors, without coming off *aggressive* persay, just pretty...straightforward and obviously pretty focused, not sure how to explain


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Well @Nissa Nissa you don’t come across as a Feeler because, I’m sorry to say, you can be very insensitive. But you seem to excuse that by using your own personal logic which I cannot understand nor counter since I have superego Ti. I just wanted to throw the possibility of ESFJ in Ti grip, out there, since it seems your triggers are all Fe related (being reprimanded for ethical faux pas and hence having “restrictions” placed on you, and specially you’re not allowed to be yourself and are perceived as insensitive by others, since it clashes with how you see yourself).


----------



## Wisteria

I've seen Marina Diamandis typed as an IEE before (think this was in a celebrity typing thread) with similar pop artists such as Halsey and Pink typed as Se ego. Can see why that song would be an aggressor romance style but based from all her music Marina doesn't seem Se valuing to me, or at least Ne ego seems more likely. This song is about violence and the need for power. "Savages" is quite similar.

SLE makes sense for Pink imo, and I think this video suits the female aggressor romance style possibly;






The romance styles aren't reliable unless you already know yours or the persons type though. When I was younger I used to see myself as childlike/infantile, so I wonder if you're more likely to relate to the caregiver style as you get older.


----------



## Wisteria

Rose for a Heart said:


> Well @Nissa Nissa you don’t come across as a Feeler because, I’m sorry to say, you can be very insensitive. But you seem to excuse that by using your own personal logic which I cannot understand nor counter since I have superego Ti. I just wanted to throw the possibility of ESFJ in Ti grip, out there, since it seems your triggers are all Fe related (being reprimanded for ethical faux pas and hence having “restrictions” placed on you, and specially you’re not allowed to be yourself and are perceived as insensitive by others, since it clashes with how you see yourself).


Seems like your own personal reaction because she doesn't seem insensitive at all to me. Using logic and reasoning doesn't make someone a logical type, or how sensitive they are to someones feelings. Ethical types can be like this too. It's just a stereotype that has come from MBTI probably.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Rose for a Heart sorry, don't mean to be...idk start something again, really don't feel like it, but honestly _you_ are the one continuously being insensitive and subtly provocative, it's almost like you're only talking to Nissa Nissa just so you could express your dislike for her and make everything she says sound horrible, reinterpreting everything she says to make it into something else that you can call insensitive or whatever, almost every post is like that, never seen such a horrendously manipulative person.


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## Rose for a Heart

Wisteria said:


> Seems like your own personal reaction because she doesn't seem insensitive at all to me. Using logic and reasoning doesn't make someone a logical type, or how sensitive they are to someones feelings. Ethical types can be like this too. It's just a stereotype that has come from MBTI probably.


Feel free to make your own judgments but since you’re new you do not know. I also disagree with the second statement because feeling users, by definitions, are better at gauging what is agreeable or disagreeable, since that is what they operate on to begin with. T users can struggle with that, hence why she was giving off the impression of a T user to some people on here.


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> Feel free to make your own judgments but since you’re new you do not know. I also disagree with the second statement because feeling users, by definitions, are better at gauging what is agreeable or disagreeable, since that is what they operate on to begin with. T users can struggle with that, hence why she was giving off the impression of a T user to some people on here.


Actually, Fe base types are described as being 'aware of the emotional environment' and 'moods' which involves also having an emotional influence on others that may be negative (but they are generally aware that it will negatively affect someone). Fe base types may be better at discerning what will affect the emotional environment in a certain way, but when, for example, surrounded by people who don't value or even dislike Fe displays, they will find themselves unable to have the impact they want and may become frustrated.
Note: I'm not commenting on the typing of @Nissa Nissa (and have no interest at all in discussing it further) but am just pointing this out.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@Vixey right, that’s what going on. From here on, please leave me alone.


----------



## Darkbloom

Rose for a Heart said:


> @Vixey right, that’s what going on.


 



> From here on, please leave me alone.


:sad:
But you don't act like someone who wants to be left alone


----------



## owlet

Vixey said:


> :sad:
> But you don't act like someone who wants to be left alone


Respect people's wishes - if @Rose for a Heart says to leave her alone, it's unkind to do otherwise.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Vixey said:


> :sad:
> But you don't act like someone who wants to be left alone


I have already reported you once now. If you try to bully me again, you will be reported. Consider yourself warned. Leave me alone, I mean it.


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey I wish for you to talk to Rose every day


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> Vixey I wish for you to talk to Rose every day


I've reported this post as inflammatory speech. Knock it off.


----------



## Wisteria

Rose for a Heart said:


> Feel free to make your own judgments but since you’re new you do not know. I also disagree with the second statement because feeling users, by definitions, are better at gauging what is agreeable or disagreeable, since that is what they operate on to begin with. T users can struggle with that, hence why she was giving off the impression of a T user to some people on here.


I don't think I'm new? I've seen enough in this thread at least and most of the other thread that got closed. It seems like you simply don't get along with Nissa anyways, don't think it's because she is being insensitive. 

If we're talking about socionics here, then perhaps ethical types are better at knowing what is acceptable in different or new situations (3D functions) but logical types can still use experience or ex + norms to determine what is acceptable behaviour or feeling expressions. Anyone can realise when they're being rude though, even if they have 1D Fi. It's only when they have to face a new situation when weak functions will have difficulty. If you mean cognitive functions then idk because I think they're bs.


----------



## Darkbloom

Rose for a Heart said:


> I have already reported you once now. If you try to bully me again, you will be reported. Consider yourself warned. Leave me alone, I mean it.


Gosh you really need to work on your Se :laughing:




Nissa Nissa said:


> Vixey I wish for you to talk to Rose every day











Am I turning into a SFJ?


----------



## mimesis

Rose for a Heart said:


> Feel free to make your own judgments but since you’re new you do not know. I also disagree with the second statement because feeling users, by definitions, are better at gauging what is agreeable or disagreeable, since that is what they operate on to begin with. T users can struggle with that, hence why she was giving off the impression of a T user to some people on here.


All types are Feeling users. Not sure what you mean with 'struggle', struggle with gauging or what is gauged?
This is a description of unhealthy Fi-dom 



personalitypage said:


> May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
> May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper
> May be unaware of appropriate social behaviori
> May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
> May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it
> May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view
> May value their own opinions and feelings far above others
> May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
> May be oblivious to other people's need
> May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the ISFP [INFP], or disapproval of the ISFP [INFP]
> May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them


Doesn't sound like very attuned to environment does it? It can get better when Fi (pre-) judgements are postponed and Ne or Se is more integrated (rather than slave or confirmation-biased to Fi prejudice, so suspension of judgement is needed in service of a more open minded perception and gathering of information).

It's also possible that a, say, ES*T*P is better at gauging appropriateness, or reading social cues, or smalltalk (a method of gauging environment) which many Fi dom dislike or don't see any use for. 

Also, according to dom-tert loop theory, INFP is said to be more susceptible to Avoidant Personality and ISFP to Paranoid Personality features, which basically implies that in contexts of perceived/ gauged dissonance of values, the introverted dom-tert loop can lead to avoidant behavior or paranoid suspicion. 

In other words, gauging what is agreeable or disagreeable in itself doesn't necessarily lead to pro-social behavior and could even lead to avoidance of social environments, hostility, and vicious circles of social anxiety, when struggling to cope with disagreement.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

@*owlet* @*mimesis* I’m not sure what you guys said contradicts what I said though. So I’m confused. I was pointing out that feelers when healthy are attuned to what’s agreeable and disagreeable, and so therefore when unhealthy can be in inferior thinking grip and come across very...T like, and not be very agreeable as they naturally should be.


----------



## owlet

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet* @*mimesis* I’m not sure what you guys said contradicts what I said though. So I’m confused. I was pointing out that feelers when healthy are attuned to what’s agreeable and disagreeable, and so therefore when unhealthy can be in inferior thinking grip and come across very...T like, and not be very agreeable as they naturally should be.


I think I possibly phrased my post badly, but I was trying to say that high dimensional, valued Fe is highly aware of and focused on the emotional atmosphere, however this atmosphere is one they influence based on how they feel it should be - which isn't necessarily agreeable.

So while this is the case:


> Types that value Fe like creating a visible atmosphere of camaraderie with other people. They enjoy a loose atmosphere where anything goes, where people don't have to watch too carefully what they say for fear of offending others. This means these types try not to be too thin-skinned, taking jokes with a grain of salt.


This is also the case:


> He is highly proactive about steering the emotional flow in the direction he himself considers ideal to a given situation. He may, for example, try to cheer people with jokes if he sees that they are too gloomy or, conversely, to get people to be serious and concentrated if they are too carefree during a crisis situation. Nevertheless, he believes emotions should be expressed as honestly as possible.


Which means that if someone with strong, valued Fe feels annoyed by a situation, they're liable to be very open with expressing that, often in an emotive way which gets the person into the emotional atmosphere they feel they should be in. Some of the main aspects are things like valuing a very overt, outward expression of emotion.


----------



## Darkbloom

I have to study, someone ban me please :frustrating:


----------



## Darkbloom

Not related, done talking about this for today I think, noticed I'm often drawn to like...possibly aggressor in victim mode songs I guess but for me it definitely feels like my Se is being activated somehow, wonder if that makes sense for a victim.
Not the kind of songs I want to post right now though  so pretty useless lol but still


----------



## Dangerose

Nothing to add actually haha
@Vixey your signature type looks pretty decent for you!


----------



## mimesis

Vixey said:


> I have to study, someone ban me please :frustrating:


Shoo!


----------



## Rose for a Heart

And @*mimesis* it did not escape me what you were implying with that post either. I don’t need to feel “oppressed” to point out insensitivity. Doesn’t strike me as that dramatic of a judgment given that many people can be “insensitive.” Not to mention when Daeva said the same damn things when he suggested LSE for her, no one jumped on him.

and I did notice you thanked some posts and suddenly unthanked them @*mistakenforstranger*. I wasn’t talking about in general, just in that moment when I pointed that you weren’t “being nice,” and then you explained it wasn’t like that and I took your word for it. so I don’t know what this thanking those posts was about


----------



## Dangerose

Rose for a Heart said:


> your triggers are all Fe related (being reprimanded for ethical faux pas and hence having “restrictions” placed on you, and specially you’re not allowed to be yourself and are perceived as insensitive by others, since it clashes with how you see yourself).


what does this mean and what does the last 'it' refer to?


----------



## Paradigm

Mr Castelo said:


> If you're still recovering, maybe it would be better to put this off for later.


I don't disagree it should be put off for later, but you really gave some good info! And once I got going I kinda kept going...

I want to say... In retrospect, I might have made it sound like I'm ruling out more things than I am. I think I tend to sound too certain of things when I'm merely exploring a thing, which... can obviously cause misunderstandings. To be more accurate in phrasing: I don't think 459 is the first choice for you, but that doesn't mean I think either 4 or 5 are impossible choices in themselves. To (hopefully) be more transparent: My impressions currently go 359 > 469 > 459 > other types I might not expect. 
If it's not a misunderstanding, I guess disregard this? 



> Actually, the first tritype I ever considered for me was 359, but that was long ago, before I dug deeper into the Enneagram, I can't even remember the reasoning I had for it back then. But I remember not liking type 4 very much, because I thought it was all about wanting to be special, which looked too special snow-flakey for me.


FWIW, 359 was my very first thought, but I wasn't sure how you related to 6/7. (Though, I agree 6w7 or 7 would be, um, interesting for you, because you don't "vibe" 6w7 like [I think] I do  )



> Might just be me being INTJ too. I did make the association of sp/so = more businesslike (perhaps "pragmatic" is the better word), because I think it fits me, and it seems to fit other sp/so people that I know too to some extent. I recognize that I may be biased in my observations.


Hm, maybe it's something that can go either way? Could depend on the combo of Enneagram + MBTI, I like that idea and it would more easily fit to my observations (though I'm not saying I'm always right, either). I think I'm biased towards SP 6, though, too, which is stereotypically "warm."



> 1. Well, I can certainly feel terrible about failure, it's not something that I can easily overcome. I try to focus on what went wrong and fixing it instead of just delving into the feeling of failure, although that can be hard.


If it's not too personal, what's your first feeling about why something failed / you failed at something? 
Where does your focus go to fix things?



> 3. Shame is connected to failure, and feeling like my biggest flaws are being exposed, specially to someone I respect/admire. Not something that I feel frequently, but that might be its biggest source.


What do you admire in someone?
What do you want to be admired for? (I mean, I know you said self-sustainable and creative writing, but sometimes people want to be admired for different things, too.)



> Well, I do want to be successful, just not sure about the recognition thing. For example, my friends know that I'm good at drawing, but I rarely show my "drawing skills" to people and I rarely feel any desire to do so, even though I know from experience that they're likely to be well-received. Recognition is often synonimous with unwanted attention and building up expectations, which feel suffocating to me. I'd say I desire respect more than recognition.


What would happen if you showed them and didn't get the suffocation feeling? What kind of reaction would be cool for you? I'm a little confused by your example being followed up by "I desire respect," sorry.



> I agree with you, feeling like you're flawed is a fairly human thing, you don't need any complex reason to believe so. In a way, all 9 types are "basic human" things, so maybe I shouldn't have added that comment in the first place.


No, it's all good. In retrospect, I was kind of thinking of an "old" NPR article I read which vaguely touched on a similar (but not really) topic, that this trait or one like it shows/showed up very much in the millennial generation (and not because "damn entitled millennials," it actually ended up as a really mild dig at their parents' skills at parenting xD).



> As for "how come"... That's a tough question to answer. I'm so self-conscious of my flaws that I could probably write a 200 pages long novel about them. What I can say about this is that I feel like, in some quite deep level, I'm unable to connect to other people, or that there is some "human" factor that I'm missing somehow. I've always been noticed by others as being "odd" in my personality, introversion itself is something that most people that I know can't seem to grasp. I've had plenty of bad experiences in the past that I'd rather not disclose here that can justify that feeling.


I understand, no worries. I have similar stories, so I'm not gonna pry into places you tell me not to 



> Yes, I've read that description. To be honest, barely anything there seems relatable. I can doubt myself and others, but never to the extent that it is described in Sixes. My mom is type 6 (also sp/so), and my reaction to most of her doubts/worries is "you're probably overreacting". I am a fairly anxious person, but it is usually not related to trust.


Tangentially: It's funny, I've been dealing with my own anxieties this past week, over my health, and I'm still the one who is telling my mom (6w5 SP/SO) to chill out (she tries to helps too much when she's worried) and my friend (2w3/9w8, but probable GAD) to stop over-reacting (basically). So I've lately wondered how _I _became the calm one.

But yeah, it's cool if you don't relate to that description. IMO it's one of the most accurate ones, and trust is definitely a big deal with 6. Last 6ish question, if you don't mind: how do you feel about trusting yourself, if anything in particular?

Feel free to not answer anything you don't want to! :kitteh:


----------



## Darkbloom

mimesis said:


> Shoo!


I'm still here, heavens help me :lemmings_by_mirz123



Nissa Nissa said:


> Nothing to add actually haha
> @Vixey your signature type looks pretty decent for you!


Thanks)
I agree))

Might elaborate on IEI later, mostly just feels better than EIE and everything else imo requires insane mental gymnastics.
Still considering SFs, but...



Nissa Nissa said:


> what does this mean and what does the last 'it' refer to?


Now we'll never know :sad:


----------



## Mr Castelo

owlet said:


> Which sources have you been using for enneagram, out of interest? I'm finding it hard to see core fears coming through from what you've written here. I couldn't even say 9 was your main type from these. (Sorry if that's unhelpful.)


Mainly Naranjo/Chestnut's stuff and some of Ocean Moonshine and Ichazo. No need to worry, think my observations were pretty superficial upon review, they were meant more as starting points. If you want me to elaborate further on some specific point, feel free to ask. I personally don't consider the ennea-types to be core fears as much as I consider them to be emotional habits.



Paradigm said:


> I don't disagree it should be put off for later, but you really gave some good info! And once I got going I kinda kept going...
> 
> I want to say... In retrospect, I might have made it sound like I'm ruling out more things than I am. I think I tend to sound too certain of things when I'm merely exploring a thing, which... can obviously cause misunderstandings. To be more accurate in phrasing: I don't think 459 is the first choice for you, but that doesn't mean I think either 4 or 5 are impossible choices in themselves. To (hopefully) be more transparent: My impressions currently go 359 > 469 > 459 > other types I might not expect.
> If it's not a misunderstanding, I guess disregard this?


I see that you try a lot to make your communication as clear and accurate as possible in order to avoid misunderstanding. Don't worry, I don't think you sound "too certain", so far, I think you've been pretty objective in your analysis. If you want to rule out anything, I'm fine with it, I'm merely exploring this side of the theory.



> FWIW, 359 was my very first thought, but I wasn't sure how you related to 6/7. (Though, I agree 6w7 or 7 would be, um, interesting for you, because you don't "vibe" 6w7 like [I think] I do  )


To be honest, I'm not even sure of how 6w7s are supposed to vibe... When it comes to wings, sometimes one wing seems to complement the type more, and the other seems polarizing, and people with the "polarizing" wing are the ones which I find more confusing (that would be 6w7's case).



> Hm, maybe it's something that can go either way? Could depend on the combo of Enneagram + MBTI, I like that idea and it would more easily fit to my observations (though I'm not saying I'm always right, either). I think I'm biased towards SP 6, though, too, which is stereotypically "warm."


Could be. I'm unsure of where the "warm 6" thing comes from in the first place, and I think it is a bit of an exaggeration. SP 6 might the most "outwardly" anxious/self-doubting subtype, but I don't think that necessarily makes them more amiable.



> If it's not too personal, what's your first feeling about why something failed / you failed at something?
> Where does your focus go to fix things?


1. A mix of sadness, disappointment in myself and regret (for not knowing/doing better).
2. If it's a mistake that I can fix, my focus goes on methods to fix it (which vary depending on the kind of mistake). I usually acknowledge my mistake, and try to redeem myself. I don't know how else to elaborate on this, it's a pretty straightforward approach.



> What do you admire in someone?
> What do you want to be admired for? (I mean, I know you said self-sustainable and creative writing, but sometimes people want to be admired for different things, too.)


1. Kindness, expertise, open-mindedness, humour, self-awareness, intelligence, courage, passion, resourcefulness, loyalty.
2. Wisdom, sincerity, insightfulness, reliability.



> What would happen if you showed them and didn't get the suffocation feeling? What kind of reaction would be cool for you? I'm a little confused by your example being followed up by "I desire respect," sorry.


1. Of course, I don't always feel suffocated for being recognized, and I can say in those moments I feel more confident in myself.
2. I don't think I expect any sort of specific reaction, at least not consciously... it's more that there are reactions that I'd like to avoid. When I do things, I usually just want to be helpful with them, I don't expect praise as much.
3. I guess what I meant by "respect" is, basically, for others to recognize the skills I have and expect me to do things right (so it is a kind of recognition afterall, but it also seems distinct to me).



> Tangentially: It's funny, I've been dealing with my own anxieties this past week, over my health, and I'm still the one who is telling my mom (6w5 SP/SO) to chill out (she tries to helps too much when she's worried) and my friend (2w3/9w8, but probable GAD) to stop over-reacting (basically). So I've lately wondered how _I _became the calm one.


Yeah, that sounds like my mom too.



> But yeah, it's cool if you don't relate to that description. IMO it's one of the most accurate ones, and trust is definitely a big deal with 6. Last 6ish question, if you don't mind: how do you feel about trusting yourself, if anything in particular?


I'd say I trust myself for most of the time, when I don't, that's when I feel lost and out of place. That being said, I'm not the most self-confident person either, which might seem contradictory, but the two are different things in my mind. To put it in other words, I generally trust myself to have the _potential_ of getting things right, but expect myself to fail, so when I do succeed, it feels more like a relief rather than an accomplishment. Intellectually, I know that I have a subtle bias of thinking that my perception is likely "better" than other people's perception, and it's something that I have to counter more consciously.


----------



## mimesis

Rose for a Heart said:


> @*owlet* @*mimesis* I’m not sure what you guys said contradicts what I said though. So I’m confused. I was pointing out that feelers when healthy are attuned to what’s agreeable and disagreeable, and so therefore when unhealthy can be in inferior thinking grip and come across very...T like, and not be very agreeable as they naturally should be.


You attributed sensitivity to F, or insensitivity to T, or implied that F-dom in inferior grip become T and less F or whatever. 

If you call someone insensitive, you need to support that judgement with observations not explain using Inferior Grip theory. Having an explanation doesn't mean the judgement or interpretation of observed behavior is correct. 

Also to be triggered by an infraction for a faux pas doesn't imply Fe. Fi can be just as much triggered by it, just as a Fi (user) could be triggered when reported behavior is not infracted as a Fi (user) might believe they should have. 

I can address other questions when you unretire, which I hope since my disagreement is nothing personal.


----------



## owlet

Mr Castelo said:


> Mainly Naranjo/Chestnut's stuff and some of Ocean Moonshine and Ichazo. No need to worry, think my observations were pretty superficial upon review, they were meant more as starting points. If you want me to elaborate further on some specific point, feel free to ask. I personally don't consider the ennea-types to be core fears as much as I consider them to be emotional habits.


Cool, okay. Would you mind discussing how you relate to types (not all of them, just the ones you think might be right for you) in terms of emotional habits? The more you can write about how things work in your mind with them, the more helpful it'll be.


----------



## gambino

owlet said:


> Which sources have you looked at? Also, why did you decide to type as 5?


I've read virtually every single online source that I've been able to find, and probably a decent amount of threads on this website aha, which typing now seems super crazy. 

But I typed at 5 for a number of reasons. One, the idea of detachment/avarice is something I think I can see having been played out throughout my life, from withdrawing from the world (usually into my imagination or into the world of information online). At the worst times in my life my human needs are the first things to go, even the basic necessities like eating food during the day have completely slipped my mind, taking showers, exercise etc. It can get really bad and I can't imagine most other types struggling with such things. 

I'm into things you might expect a 5 to be into: physics, sci-fi & science, the occasional esoteric subject (hi Enneagram).

When it comes to emotions I have a bit of an uneasy truce with them, in that I'm all too aware that mine can be pretty powerful and maybe because of that I try my best to not ever have to experience them unless it's unavoidable. I would rather think my emotions through than feel them out; that being said, even when I try to let them run their course it's usually a lot more short-lived than I would've expected. Seems like said detachment of type 5? 

I've also considered type 4. Equanimity does seem like something that is missing from my life, but I'm unsure how it works. Also, with the whole doubt, this is something I go through often (ala type 6) in regards to career, suspicions of people in my life, the questioning and vigilance, which explains my choice to type as a 5w6 for now. I imagine my wing is phobic but I can't be sure.

Would it help if I maybe tried to get some quotes that I think do describe my life well or no? Any thoughts so far?

p.s. sorry for taking so long to reply to you, life has been unusually hectic for me since posting the first message.


----------



## Dangerose

did everyone go away? :sad:


----------



## Darkbloom

Oh my God, I got an infraction _and_ lost 10 PerC points:crying:












@Nissa Nissa I was just about to ask the same thing 
Kinda can't post, have to study a bit more/don't really have inspiration (honestly typing as IEI is boring :laughing: ), but bored, and hate it when it's so quiet here


----------



## Darkbloom

Wonder if finding IEI boring means it's definitely not my type or maybe the opposite


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Wonder if finding IEI boring means it's definitely not my type or maybe the opposite


It’s not your type.


----------



## Wisteria

I don't want to derail the thread by discussing socionics, and I'm not very knowledgeable of enneagram. That's why I haven't been posting here since the thread re-opened. It has gone quiet here though


----------



## Dangerose

everyone can talk about whatever system on whatever thread, if anyone is annoyed by that it is their problem


----------



## ElectricSlime

Btw does anyone own Wisdom of the Enneagram ? I’ve been wanting to read Riso’s take on Threes, as from the few I’ve seen it’s pretty close to my person, much more so than any other author’s shitty american stereotype description.

I was wondering if someone could screenshot a few excerpts, rather than having to buy the whole thing full price.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> It’s not your type.


But why? :/
Aside from not having a vision and such?

I'm not trying to be annoying, just I agree with @Wisteria 's argument about my Si, I don't think I pay attention to real life Si enough for 4D valued, also not sure about Se ignoring specifically, not sure how my Se is strong and unvalued.

Just want to clarify:
-Do you think that my Si (the kind I'm talking about) is actually good and something I focus on, and I'm either unaware of it or lying about it for whatever reason 
-Or you think it doesn't matter at all and I'm Si despite everything else just based on the way I approach typing and my conversation topics


----------



## owlet

gambino said:


> I've read virtually every single online source that I've been able to find, and probably a decent amount of threads on this website aha, which typing now seems super crazy.


Ah, okay, so ones like Ocean Moonshine, Enneagram Institute etc.? It's helpful to have an idea of what you've read, so thanks.



> But I typed at 5 for a number of reasons. One, the idea of detachment/avarice is something I think I can see having been played out throughout my life, from withdrawing from the world (usually into my imagination or into the world of information online). At the worst times in my life my human needs are the first things to go, even the basic necessities like eating food during the day have completely slipped my mind, taking showers, exercise etc. It can get really bad and I can't imagine most other types struggling with such things.
> 
> I'm into things you might expect a 5 to be into: physics, sci-fi & science, the occasional esoteric subject (hi Enneagram).
> 
> When it comes to emotions I have a bit of an uneasy truce with them, in that I'm all too aware that mine can be pretty powerful and maybe because of that I try my best to not ever have to experience them unless it's unavoidable. I would rather think my emotions through than feel them out; that being said, even when I try to let them run their course it's usually a lot more short-lived than I would've expected. Seems like said detachment of type 5?


For the first part, that describes likely a withdrawn type, so 4, 5 or 9, while the human needs being dropped is more of a probable instinctual variant issue (sp last) - I'm not sure if you've looked into the instinctual variants? For now, don't worry about them anyway, as they would just make things more complicated and it would be better to focus just on the main types. Type 5 has its main fear of being unprepared to deal with the external world and so hoarding information about areas of fear in it (for example, some 5s might be survivalists and learn everything they need to be able to live in harsh environments). Less healthy 5s will hold onto this information for a sense of power, so not sharing it with others as only them having it gives them the upper hand in at least one area.

I wouldn't focus on interests or hobbies themselves, but more your relation to them, like what you're looking to get out of them.

5s can be disconnected from their emotions, as they prefer to generally play the role of observer, watching rather than participating due to the fear of not being prepared enough to actually get involved (they watch in order to become more prepared, but many fall into just watching as it feels more comfortable).



> I've also considered type 4. Equanimity does seem like something that is missing from my life, but I'm unsure how it works. Also, with the whole doubt, this is something I go through often (ala type 6) in regards to career, suspicions of people in my life, the questioning and vigilance, which explains my choice to type as a 5w6 for now. I imagine my wing is phobic but I can't be sure.


With type 4, their main fear is that they have no identity and are insignificant. This can lead to them trying to find who 'they' really are in order to have a solid identity (and become significant somehow), but as people are actually fluid and without a solid identity, they often latch onto certain bits and pieces they find consistent in themselves and build an identity around that - so they might enjoy art, but then see that as integral to their self-image, presenting themselves as an 'artist' in order to feel they have that identity, or the same might happen with their emotions - they see themselves as their emotional state and may stew in emotions or try to prolong emotional states in order to feel more stable. Healthier 4s let go of the idea of there being a rigid 'thing' that is their personality and realise they are just themselves.



> Would it help if I maybe tried to get some quotes that I think do describe my life well or no? Any thoughts so far?


Sure, that would be good, I think. I haven't got anything solid yet, so I'll hold off saying for now.



> p.s. sorry for taking so long to reply to you, life has been unusually hectic for me since posting the first message.


No problem!



ElectricSlime said:


> Btw does anyone own Wisdom of the Enneagram ? I’ve been wanting to read Riso’s take on Threes, as from the few I’ve seen it’s pretty close to my person, much more so than any other author’s shitty american stereotype description.
> 
> I was wondering if someone could screenshot a few excerpts, rather than having to buy the whole thing full price.


I do, but you can view most of it on google books for free anyway.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> But why? :/
> Aside from not having a vision and such?
> 
> I'm not trying to be annoying, just I agree with @Wisteria 's argument about my Si, I don't think I pay attention to real life Si enough for 4D valued, also not sure about Se ignoring specifically, not sure how my Se is strong and unvalued.
> 
> Just want to clarify:
> -Do you think that my Si (the kind I'm talking about) is actually good and something I focus on, and I'm either unaware of it or lying about it for whatever reason
> -Or you think it doesn't matter at all and I'm Si despite everything else just based on the way I approach typing and my conversation topics


You display no Ni whatsoever, yet plenty of Si. It’s not merely about the vision buzzword, it’s the way you look at life and to what you give your focus. No abstractions of reality (especially in terms of archetypes when Ni is coupled with Ti), no developing on the future, no digging for meaning. Nothing of that. But plenty of textures, smells, detailed descriptions of a situation through your experience and fruit emojis. Even if you believe that you want Se (and it’s not rare to be attracted to another type more than your dual, it’s actually quite common apparently), what Ni would you even provide a Beta ST ? 

No offense to Wisteria, as I do think she has good insights often, but she’s off there. Your posts ooze with more Si than anyone else here, and we’ve all but Wisteria agreed on that. Something you said off guard once was also textbook 1D Ne, as nep2une pointed it out.

We’ve gone over that plenty of times.


----------



## Darkbloom

I just want someone to explain to me in what way I show signs of high dimensional Se :/

@ElectricSlime but what Si would I offer to an Alpha NT? Send them fruit emojis?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> I just want someone to explain to me in what way I show signs of high dimensional Se :/
> 
> @ElectricSlime but what Si would I offer to an Alpha NT? Send them fruit emojis?


Se ignoring

Help them live in the physical side of things, ground them, reassure them of their attractiveness, pay attention to their special needs. That’s enough, being Caregiver doesn’t automatically turn you into a maid.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@owlet

Can’t do it on my end :/


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> @*owlet*
> 
> Can’t do it on my end :/


Oh, hmm, that's strange. In that case, I'll try to root out the book tomorrow and maybe just PM you some excerpts (not sure about copyright stuff) - which bits about 3 were you particularly interested in?


----------



## Dangerose

@ElectricSlime you read Wuthering Heights, right? Would you agree Catherine is an ENFJ?

(just curious on your general take on Ni egos)


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Se ignoring
> 
> Help them live in the physical side of things, ground them, reassure them of their attractiveness, pay attention to their special needs. That’s enough, being Caregiver doesn’t automatically turn you into a maid.


But that's the thing, I talked about how I'm not that Si and you made it into "She thinks it's about being a maid", not true, what I'm trying to get at is that I myself don't live in the physical side of things enough, by that I don't mean I daydream a lot or whatever but I do tend to live in abstractions too much, that's partly why I need Se, it's not just about wanting adventures and to get fucked by a SLE or whatever it sounds like :laughing:
And I do think I have those same abstractions to offer.


If I'm still SEI it's fine, but I just feel like you're looking for something overly specific when it comes to Ni in my case.


----------



## Darkbloom

(goodnight :sleepytime: )


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> @ElectricSlime you read Wuthering Heights, right? Would you agree Catherine is an ENFJ?
> 
> (just curious on your general take on Ni egos)


Both her and Heathcliff (a Gamma ish blend of LSI, ESI and ILI ?) confuse me, but EIE is a contender yes.

I think she’s definitely ENFP in MBTI though. 

Raskolnikov and Hamlet are both good Ni ego (likely base) examples. Dostoevsky’s Underground Man is an IEI gone wrong. Lord Henry in Dorian Gray is an EIE (ENTP) I think.


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> Oh, hmm, that's strange. In that case, I'll try to root out the book tomorrow and maybe just PM you some excerpts (not sure about copyright stuff) - which bits about 3 were you particularly interested in?


Our beloved @Paradigm got me the whole book so it’s alright, but thanks


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> But that's the thing, I talked about how I'm not that Si and you made it into "She thinks it's about being a maid", not true, what I'm trying to get at is that I myself don't live in the physical side of things enough, by that I don't mean I daydream a lot or whatever but I do tend to live in abstractions too much, that's partly why I need Se, it's not just about wanting adventures and to get fucked by a SLE or whatever it sounds like :laughing:
> And I do think I have those same abstractions to offer.
> 
> 
> If I'm still SEI it's fine, but I just feel like you're looking for something overly specific when it comes to Ni in my case.


On the contrary, I’m the one that’s actually not focusing on specifics.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> On the contrary, I’m the one that’s actually not focusing on specifics.


I think another clue could be there's a difference in perception when others (I think all but a few have done it) take an example and kind of condenses it into a smaller analogy and then gets accused of shifting goalposts or misrepresenting something, when really we're talking of the same thing without feeling the need to go into any more detail, whereas without the details it's seen as being "all wrong" or "not a fair representation."

Edit: I mean like... Seen just now when you said something about "being a maid" and @Vixey was all "that's not what I meant." Of course it wasn't, but the details about that weren't really meant to be the focal point.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Both her and Heathcliff (a Gamma ish blend of LSI, ESI and ILI ?) confuse me, but EIE is a contender yes.
> 
> I think she’s definitely ENFP in MBTI though.


Hm, was thinking of it because of that complex of subservience, isn't that Wuthering Heights in a nutshell?
Catherine marries Edgar because 'marrying Heathcliff would be a degradation', Heathcliff is obvs all about the revenge for his subservient existence...
Cathy seems really creative Ni/Se HA to me, I remember some interesting abstractions 'colours my thoughts like wine through water', and her wildness, willfullness, etc

Was thinking ENFJ/ISTP duality



> Raskolnikov and Hamlet are both good Ni ego (likely base) examples.


They're also both really angsty 6s uffer: (I'm going with your thoughts on Raskolnikov)
What about James Joyce? Ni-dom do you think?


----------



## gambino

owlet said:


> Ah, okay, so ones like Ocean Moonshine, Enneagram Institute etc.? It's helpful to have an idea of what you've read, so thanks.
> 
> 
> For the first part, that describes likely a withdrawn type, so 4, 5 or 9, while the human needs being dropped is more of a probable instinctual variant issue (sp last) - I'm not sure if you've looked into the instinctual variants? For now, don't worry about them anyway, as they would just make things more complicated and it would be better to focus just on the main types. Type 5 has its main fear of being unprepared to deal with the external world and so hoarding information about areas of fear in it (for example, some 5s might be survivalists and learn everything they need to be able to live in harsh environments). Less healthy 5s will hold onto this information for a sense of power, so not sharing it with others as only them having it gives them the upper hand in at least one area.
> 
> I wouldn't focus on interests or hobbies themselves, but more your relation to them, like what you're looking to get out of them.
> 
> 5s can be disconnected from their emotions, as they prefer to generally play the role of observer, watching rather than participating due to the fear of not being prepared enough to actually get involved (they watch in order to become more prepared, but many fall into just watching as it feels more comfortable).
> 
> 
> With type 4, their main fear is that they have no identity and are insignificant. This can lead to them trying to find who 'they' really are in order to have a solid identity (and become significant somehow), but as people are actually fluid and without a solid identity, they often latch onto certain bits and pieces they find consistent in themselves and build an identity around that - so they might enjoy art, but then see that as integral to their self-image, presenting themselves as an 'artist' in order to feel they have that identity, or the same might happen with their emotions - they see themselves as their emotional state and may stew in emotions or try to prolong emotional states in order to feel more stable. Healthier 4s let go of the idea of there being a rigid 'thing' that is their personality and realise they are just themselves.
> 
> 
> Sure, that would be good, I think. I haven't got anything solid yet, so I'll hold off saying for now.
> 
> 
> 
> No problem!
> 
> 
> I do, but you can view most of it on google books for free anyway.


Ocean Moonshine, EI, timeless' descriptions, the Overview of[E-type] and Wings, enneasubtypes weebly website etc.

I've looked into inst. variants, and I think I may be so/sx...but also possibly sx/so. sp-last does seem to jive well with some of the weaknesses in my character unfortunately. 

Hmm, what do I get out of my hobbies. I mean, for a long time in my life I enjoyed creation and anything that I could use my mind for, whether it was creative writing, debates on sports, gathering information online on whatever topic I may have heard a snippet of that day. I'm involved in science now and that was a mixture of both finding a way that I might one day be able to contribute to the world in some way, and also something that would stretch my mental capabilities (That I was previously really attached to as a notion). 

Tbh, I'm unsure how to possibly explain why I've done what I've done, except for, constantly, at the time it made the most sense to me with whatever situation I was in. -shrug- 

So I was going to maybe get bulletpoints of different e-types but that seems far too much hassle for both of us, so here's the questionnaire I did last year instead. I'm hoping there's enough there to at least start a decent read on me: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/1187634-if-you-could-help-me-thatd-great.html

Might be easier if I let you lead from here on out, as I trust your opinion over mine...[at this point all of this info has started to warp my mind lol].


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> Hm, was thinking of it because of that complex of subservience, isn't that Wuthering Heights in a nutshell?
> Catherine marries Edgar because 'marrying Heathcliff would be a degradation', Heathcliff is obvs all about the revenge for his subservient existence...


Don't think that Heathcliff is bent on revenge for living a "subservient existence" so much as for hating everyone on earth yet falling in love with a specific girl who ends up ditching him for a guy she doesn't actually love because she's shallow like that. He got NTR'd by a wuss. He quickly gets out of the whole subservient existence by getting ripped, rich and marrying Edgar's sister, yet his revenge (practiced in a quite Gamma way against Hindley and Edgar) runs deeper than that. He's very Gamma, and although he's LSI esque in a lot of ways, I don't see the Fe seeking. But then again, he's fictional.



> Cathy seems really creative Ni/Se HA to me, I remember some interesting abstractions 'colours my thoughts like wine through water', and her wildness, willfullness, etc


Quite reasonable, I don't disagree.



> Was thinking ENFJ/ISTP duality


The notion of Heathcliff and Cathy being duals is certainly appealing.

BUT ISTP AND LSI IS NOT THE SAME THING



> What about James Joyce? Ni-dom do you think?


Dynamic > Static

Ti > Te

Which leaves Fe ego.

Very likely an introtim.

So SEI vs IEI.

I might have put SEI on the table based solely on Portrait (although IEI would've been equally as likely if not slightly ahead). But after reading a few bits of Ulysses and namely his discourses on Shakespeare and plethora of metaphors and symbolism, I have to give it to IEI, clearly.

He lacks juice for a Beta NF Four tho imo, I think he's Sx last.



> They're also both really angsty 6s (I'm going with your thoughts on Raskolnikov)


Beta is a very Sixish quadra, :wink: At least based on the archetype that Six is meant to represent. There are obviously quite a few Sixes in each quadra.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Don't think that Heathcliff is bent on revenge for living a "subservient existence" so much as for hating everyone on earth yet falling in love with a specific girl who ends up ditching him for a guy she doesn't actually love because she's shallow like that. He got NTR'd by a wuss. He quickly gets out of the whole subservient existence by getting ripped, rich and marrying Edgar's sister, yet his revenge (practiced in a quite Gamma way against Hindley and Edgar) runs deeper than that. He's very Gamma, and although he's LSI esque in a lot of ways, I don't see the Fe seeking. But then again, he's fictional.


Yeah, wasn't sure about Fe seeking either, might be something that just doesn't show up in the novel though :/ 
And he does come off a LITTLE more Gamma I agree, but I thought it was perhaps deceptively Gamma-ish Beta, remember...is it aristocracy? the way he talked about Isabella for instance like 'as if I counted someone like that as a human being!' basically (because...not Cathy and not Se) 
not that Gamma sx can't be 'us two against the world', obviously it can probably more than Beta, just thought it was potentially aristocratic attitude
ESI isn't ridiculous anyways

(lol I read NTR as 'not type related', had to google it )



> BUT ISTP AND LSI IS NOT THE SAME THING


that's upsetting to me and i don't like it



> Dynamic > Static
> 
> Ti > Te
> 
> Which leaves Fe ego.
> 
> Very likely an introtim.
> 
> So SEI vs IEI.
> 
> I might have put SEI on the table based solely on Portrait (although IEI would've been equally as likely if not slightly ahead). But after reading a few bits of Ulysses and namely his discourses on Shakespeare and plethora of metaphors and symbolism, I have to give it to IEI, clearly.


ok thanks 
Not sure if I actually read through Portrait but I thought this was Ni:



> White roses and red roses: those were beautiful colours to think of. And the cards for the first and second place and third place were beautiful colours too: pink and cream and lavender. Lavender and cream and pink roses were beautiful to think of. Perhaps a wild rose might be like those colours and he remembered the song about the wild rose blossoms on the little green place. But you could not have a green rose. But perhaps somewhere in the world you could.


I mean it sounds Si but that concept of the missing green rose, idk

Was wondering about a Ne typing anyways because for instance Ulysses is very patchwork, one part is written like a medieval epic and one part is written in question and answer form, obviously somewhat surface Ne but well this for instance seems like Ne-dom's humorous reflection on himself:



> Reading two pages apiece of seven books every night, eh? I was young. You bowed to yourself in the mirror, stepping forward to applause earnestly, striking face. Hurray for the Goddamned idiot! Hray! No-one saw: tell no-one. Books you were going to write with letters for titles. Have you read his F? O yes, but I prefer Q. Yes, but W is wonderful. O yes, W. Remember your epiphanies on green oval leaves, deeply deep, copies to be sent if you died to all the great libraries of the world, including Alexandria? Someone was to read them there after a few thousand year, a mahamanvantara. Pico della Mirandola like. Ay, very like a whale. When one reads these strange pages of one long gone one feels that one is at one with one who once...


However I still thought IEI, not sure why, just seemed generally like it's all a cohesive vision that comes together :/ probably wrong way of determining it though



> He lacks juice for a Beta NF Four tho imo, I think he's Sx last.


Agree probably though don't know enough about him personally, would think more or less sp/so based on what I've read and my general impression



> Beta is a very Sixish quadra, :wink: At least based on the archetype that Six is meant to represent. There are obviously quite a few Sixes in each quadra.


Well...yeah? Yeah, I guess, Beta in general seems...268, Alpha seems 379, Gamma 358? Delta 149
I mean I guess, it's a very slim archetype there.


----------



## Paradigm

Mr Castelo said:


> I see that you try a lot to make your communication as clear and accurate as possible in order to avoid misunderstanding. Don't worry, I don't think you sound "too certain", so far, I think you've been pretty objective in your analysis. If you want to rule out anything, I'm fine with it, I'm merely exploring this side of the theory.


Sorry. I'm often accused of not speaking clearly when I think I am, so I end up over-explaining to compensate when I feel more anxious than usual.

Oh, and likewise, you don't have to use the tritype theory at all  Knowing your core type + variants is good enough.



> To be honest, I'm not even sure of how 6w7s are supposed to vibe... When it comes to wings, sometimes one wing seems to complement the type more, and the other seems polarizing, and people with the "polarizing" wing are the ones which I find more confusing (that would be 6w7's case).


Eh, another case of me being somewhat facetious. I hate describing types in a few words, so I end up being facetious about them xD
6w7s are "open," rambly and all over the place. They splay out their thoughts to explore them. I do it myself, it's like a pseudo-Ne thing. This can change based on a lot of factors (of course) - in my case, some of it's been tempered by things like depression and maturity. And (of course) things can mimic that behavior, anxiety would be a good/easy example.



> Could be. I'm unsure of where the "warm 6" thing comes from in the first place, and I think it is a bit of an exaggeration. SP 6 might the most "outwardly" anxious/self-doubting subtype, but I don't think that necessarily makes them more amiable.


By Chestnut :laughing: (Well, probably by someone else first but I'm seriously blanking atm. Naranjo first made up the subtypes, I think?) I'm not a fan of it at all, I think she puts 6s at a place that's _*way*_ too needy/clingy/yesman-y. This is a better one for SP6. I do see the SP6 = warmth thing play out almost daily, but I'm not the kind of person to use subtypes to type someone either.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. A mix of sadness, disappointment in myself and regret (for not knowing/doing better).
> 2. If it's a mistake that I can fix, my focus goes on methods to fix it (which vary depending on the kind of mistake). I usually acknowledge my mistake, and try to redeem myself. I don't know how else to elaborate on this, it's a pretty straightforward approach.
> 
> 1. Kindness, expertise, open-mindedness, humour, self-awareness, intelligence, courage, passion, resourcefulness, loyalty.
> 2. Wisdom, sincerity, insightfulness, reliability.
> 
> 1. Of course, I don't always feel suffocated for being recognized, and I can say in those moments I feel more confident in myself.
> 2. I don't think I expect any sort of specific reaction, at least not consciously... it's more that there are reactions that I'd like to avoid. When I do things, I usually just want to be helpful with them, I don't expect praise as much.
> 3. I guess what I meant by "respect" is, basically, for others to recognize the skills I have and expect me to do things right (so it is a kind of recognition afterall, but it also seems distinct to me).
> 
> I'd say I trust myself for most of the time, when I don't, that's when I feel lost and out of place. That being said, I'm not the most self-confident person either, which might seem contradictory, but the two are different things in my mind. To put it in other words, I generally trust myself to have the _potential_ of getting things right, but expect myself to fail, so when I do succeed, it feels more like a relief rather than an accomplishment. Intellectually, I know that I have a subtle bias of thinking that my perception is likely "better" than other people's perception, and it's something that I have to counter more consciously.


Hmm... How would you feel about 9w1-3w4-5w6 SP/SO? 5w4 is a fix possibility but I feel like your last answer (relief over things working) would tie to w6 easier. You seem to play off others' reactions, or be fairly affected by them, would that be a fair assessment?


----------



## Wisteria

> Comparison of objects' properties and relations between them, constitues major part logical information called systematizing. Finding out general properties and differences; creating tables, schemes, and structures; math computations, arranging in certain order, or constructing of algorithms; finding out dependencies and regularities; constructing of hierarchies and classifications; making statistical calculations, etc can be generally attributed to the notion of logical operations.
> 
> Let us do some arithmetics. How much is it if two chairs are added to another three chairs? Obviously that makes five chairs. Were we interested in features of that chairs (material, upholstery, etc.) when counting them? No, we were interested only in quantity, i.e., in a certin co-relation between the objects. We can further disembody them in our mind and count abstractly: 2+3=5. This is an illustration of what the system logic means.


I was reading about the IEs and this comparison of Ti and Te made me realise that science (at least the majority of the theory in my course) is very Ti. System logic is a term used for Ti, which is what is being described.



Vixey said:


> But why? :/
> Aside from not having a vision and such?
> 
> I'm not trying to be annoying, just I agree with @Wisteria 's argument about my Si, I don't think I pay attention to real life Si enough for 4D valued, also not sure about Se ignoring specifically, not sure how my Se is strong and unvalued.
> 
> Just want to clarify:
> -Do you think that my Si (the kind I'm talking about) is actually good and something I focus on, and I'm either unaware of it or lying about it for whatever reason
> -Or you think it doesn't matter at all and I'm Si despite everything else just based on the way I approach typing and my conversation topics


Oh, thought I changed my thoughts about that after I mentioned 1D Si? Maybe I didn't get round to it, I was quite busy at the time and the thread closed.

I was just learning about dimensionality and probably confused 1D Si with Vital track.
I read your Si block on the thread later and realised it was a lot better than the your answers to the Ni block. In your answers for the Ni block you showed frustration of people being late and didn't show signs of Ni (there was no confidence with anticipating events) which I've seen in a lot of Ni PoLR descriptions. A lot of the questionnaire suggested Si was in the mental block, as it seemed valued and stronger than 1D Si. I'm not entirely sure your type is SEI, but it seems far more likely than IEI.


----------



## Dangerose

Someone talk about Vixey's Se for Christ's sake


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Vixey said:


> Oh my God, I got an infraction _and_ lost 10 PerC points:crying:












Did you see Turi was permabanned? The mods were just like, We've had enough, GTFO Turi! :laughing: He was more active in MBTI/Cognitive Functions sections,, though, and caused the "damage" there.



owlet said:


> With type 4, their main fear is that they have no identity and are insignificant. This can lead to them trying to find who 'they' really are in order to have a solid identity (and become significant somehow), but as people are actually fluid and without a solid identity, they often latch onto certain bits and pieces they find consistent in themselves and build an identity around that - so they might enjoy art, but then see that as integral to their self-image, presenting themselves as an 'artist' in order to feel they have that identity, or the same might happen with their emotions - they see themselves as their emotional state and may stew in emotions or try to prolong emotional states in order to feel more stable. Healthier 4s let go of the idea of there being a rigid 'thing' that is their personality and realise they are just themselves.


I do get what you're saying and how it's related to 4, but the idea of 4s main fear is not having an identity seems strange to me, and think that's Riso-Hudson's view, right? I think 4s are acutely aware of their identity, and especially how it's flawed, different, broken, etc., so why would their fear be of not having an identity? I suppose identifying with one's flawed nature is a way of having a consistent identity, but don't really see it an "act" (not that I think you're implying this), certainly can dramatize my flaws and make them worse in my mind than they are, but it is rooted in one's true sense of self that is seen as deficient in some way.

Take Kurt Cobain, for instance, since it's on my mind lately and he's such a 4 to me, and I don't even know why there's an argument for him being a 5: "I *knew* I was different." He certainly knows who he is, but he assumes a position of his identity being different, which then translates into themes of being an alien, outsider, black sheep, and one's identity is built/reinforced around that self-perception, while envying those same people who you feel you can never be. Think of Lorde's Royals too expressing that sentiment.










I agree with @*Mr Castelo* saying it's less about core fears and more habitual beliefs (I think is what he said?), at least because it can often be hard to identify a core fear in one self, and fears run deeper than personality. 

I also wouldn't say I latch onto things I find consistent in myself, as I don't find anything consistent in myself really, but rather those things that mirror who I feel myself to be. I introject personalities into my psyche that I find are desirable and obliquely similar to me in a way. It makes me feel more special in order to counteract the shame of my ordinary, flawed self. Cringe! 4s romanticize, knowing full well the ugly truth.



ElectricSlime said:


> Both her and Heathcliff (a Gamma ish blend of LSI, ESI and ILI ?) confuse me, but EIE is a contender yes.
> 
> I think she’s definitely ENFP in MBTI though.
> 
> Raskolnikov and Hamlet are both good Ni ego (likely base) examples. Dostoevsky’s Underground Man is an IEI gone wrong. Lord Henry in Dorian Gray is an EIE (ENTP) I think.


Never read Wuthering Heights, but agree with those typings of Raskolnikov, Hamlet, and UM. 

An article all about that: https://www.stellarmaze.com/fi-in-infjs/



ElectricSlime said:


> Dynamic > Static
> 
> Ti > Te
> 
> Which leaves Fe ego.
> 
> Very likely an introtim.
> 
> So SEI vs IEI.
> 
> I might have put SEI on the table based solely on Portrait (although IEI would've been equally as likely if not slightly ahead). But after reading a few bits of Ulysses and namely his discourses on Shakespeare and plethora of metaphors and symbolism, I have to give it to IEI, clearly.


You would be correct! At least from what I've read and know of him. I could maybe see an argument for Ne-valuing, but think he's able to write from the perspective of Ne (i.e Leopold Bloom) rather than that he is one. And yeah, definitely not a Sensor. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> ok thanks
> Not sure if I actually read through Portrait but I thought this was Ni:
> 
> I mean it sounds Si but that concept of the missing green rose, idk


I was thinking that was more Se. This is a Ni passage from Portrait. So much Ni-valuing + 1D Se:



> "He did not want to play. He wanted to meet in the real world the unsubstantial image which his soul so constantly beheld. He did not know where to seek it or how, but a premonition which led him on told him that this image would, without any overt act of his, encounter him. They would meet quietly as if they had known each other and had made their tryst, perhaps at one of the gates or in some more secret place. They would be alone, surrounded by darkness and silence: and in that moment of supreme tenderness he would be transfigured. He would fade into something impalpable under her eyes and then in a moment he would be transfigured. Weakness and timidity and inexperience would fall from him in that magic moment."





> Was wondering about a Ne typing anyways because for instance Ulysses is very patchwork, one part is written like a medieval epic and one part is written in question and answer form, obviously somewhat surface Ne but well this for instance seems like Ne-dom's humorous reflection on himself:
> 
> However I still thought IEI, not sure why, just seemed generally like it's all a cohesive vision that comes together :/ probably wrong way of determining it though


No, you're right, there is definitely a plan (i.e. cohesive vision) to it all. It's more that he was trying to capture in language how the mind actually thinks, which can maybe look Ne. 

Who would be a Ne-dom writer? 



ElectricSlime said:


> He lacks juice for a Beta NF Four tho imo, I think he's Sx last.





Nissa Nissa said:


> Agree probably though don't know enough about him personally, would think more or less sp/so based on what I've read and my general impression


But those letters...:shocked::laughing: (I think this is the most sx one...)


* *












Think his brother, Stanislaus was sp/so or so/sp, and remember reading something about how James told him he didn't know how to live, while he was squandering away all of his money night after night in pubs with friends. I think he was so/sx or sx/so.



> The diary indicates that Stanislaus, truly "his brother's keeper", was called upon to rescue his brother from financial difficulties time and time again. After 1908, he maintained his own address, although he may have lived with his brother again for a time in 1909.


But, he also learned a lot from Nora in the ways of sex/sx, and perhaps she was SEE? Would be interesting if he was ILI dual, but not really sure of that typing of her. She does function in a way as a dual of sorts for him:



> "She seemed to have greater sexual experience than him," says Professor Johnson, "and certainly more than he expected. I think the sort of liberation that he achieved [because of her] in the context of a society that was quite repressive might have enabled him to gather the strength to go forward, to go away and establish a home elsewhere. There's certainly a case to be made for her part in the decision to leave Dublin."
> 
> Nora's role as muse is evident in many of Joyce's works. Both Molly Bloom in Ulysses and Greta Conroy in The Dead were inspired by her. But Nora Barnacle was much more than just a catalyst for Joyce's imagination.


Molly Bloom is certainly sx/so, and I think 2w3.


----------



## Super Luigi

@mistakenforstranger

I saw that Turi was banned, but I didn't know it was permanent. Wow.

No, I'm not giving consent for this thread. I'm just having a little chat.


----------



## spicycucumber

Fun!!

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party. Also, PLEASE find fault or agreement with my typing 

I'm definitely an ENFp-Ne, SX__, and I think I'm some 7w6 4w3 1w9 combo. I'm assuming I'm 7w6 first, but could also be 1w9 first? Don't know if 1 matches with ENFp very well.

Thanks in advance!! :heart:


----------



## Darkbloom

I wanna kill myself when someone else talks about Si for more than a minute :frustrating:


----------



## Super Luigi

Vixey said:


> I wanna kill myself when someone else talks about Si for more than a minute :frustrating:


I used to think I had Si. Sometimes I can visually map out my surroundings and make a plan of how I often get from one place to another, or how I'm gonna get there next time. Sometimes I remember a lot of facts about something. But my observations and my memories, they're not nuanced, and they're not subjective to my personal impression of anything. I see stuff, and remember stuff, for what it is. Sometimes my memories and observations are simple and lacking any depth for that reason. I just don't care about making it more than it is most of the time.

That's just my experience when I thought I had Si, and looking back on that.


----------



## Super Luigi

Wisteria said:


> He tried to have an objective view on MBTI by ignoring stereotypes etc, but then he started creating his own idea of what MBTI is and how the functions work, which were extremely inaccurate imo.
> 
> I was surprised as the permaban though xD Seen a lot of members insulting Turi as well though, who didn't really receive the infractions even though they were breaking the forums rules.


I never really observed his perspective, I just heard him talk about his intention, so you could be right.

I know somebody on this forum that could use a ban, just saying.


----------



## Dangerose

@spicycucumber why do you relate to 7/why would you think 1?


----------



## spicycucumber

@nissanissa I tend to be pretty gluttonous when it comes to experiences. I am constantly on the hunt for the next "high" whether it be through social or situational means. When I experience negative situations, my first reaction is to mentally run from the situation and then sort through the situation later with a friend if a) the emotions are too intense for me to handle or b) it's a situation that needs to be handled or resolved. I hate deeply painful experiences and will do anything possible to escape them. I tend to be pretty optimistic about situations unless I am under extreme stress or my expectations have not been met, in which case I become pretty pessimistic and cynical about the future. I get annoyed when people impose their rules on me and don't respect my choice to live differently than them. I really relate with the enthusiasm, pursuit of possibilities and connections, intense FOMO, and the deep desire to feel secure and fulfilled. 

In terms of 1, I get really angry when I feel like my boundaries have been violated or when someone has been inconsiderate to me/treated me unjustly. I relate with the idealism, perfectionism (not to an intense degree), consideration of others, and self-discipline (which varies depending on the category). I don't really relate with the moral superiority, the need to be right all of the time, and pressuring others to follow my ethics. That bit really irritates me.


----------



## Dangerose

@spicycucumber well yeah that sounds 7, with line to 1 (and possible 1 fix)


----------



## Super Luigi

spicycucumber said:


> @nissanissa I tend to be pretty gluttonous when it comes to experiences. I am constantly on the hunt for the next "high" whether it be through social or situational means. When I experience negative situations, my first reaction is to mentally run from the situation and then sort through the situation later with a friend if a) the emotions are too intense for me to handle or b) it's a situation that needs to be handled or resolved. I hate deeply painful experiences and will do anything possible to escape them. I tend to be pretty optimistic about situations unless I am under extreme stress or my expectations have not been met, in which case I become pretty pessimistic and cynical about the future. I get annoyed when people impose their rules on me and don't respect my choice to live differently than them. I really relate with the enthusiasm, pursuit of possibilities and connections, intense FOMO, and the deep desire to feel secure and fulfilled.
> 
> I don't really relate with the moral superiority, the need to be right all of the time, and pressuring others to follow my ethics. That bit really irritates me.


generally, same here

I don't really care about explaining myself, but when I see that someone else explained it for me, I just say "yep, that's it" and you did that. What you said sounds like Enneagram 7 and 8, respectively. I mean, the second part that I quoted. I left out some of it. I was referring to what I can relate with.


Sent from my Penguin Phone using TweetTweet


----------



## Darkbloom

The Penguin said:


> I used to think I had Si. Sometimes I can visually map out my surroundings and make a plan of how I often get from one place to another, or how I'm gonna get there next time. Sometimes I remember a lot of facts about something. But my observations and my memories, they're not nuanced, and they're not subjective to my personal impression of anything. I see stuff, and remember stuff, for what it is. Sometimes my memories and observations are simple and lacking any depth for that reason. I just don't care about making it more than it is most of the time.
> 
> That's just my experience when I thought I had Si, and looking back on that.


Not relatable tbh 
(but that seems to be mbti Si, not socionics Si?)

And I can never visually map out my surroundings, I'm constantly getting lost, and I'm the most useless person when it comes to giving directions and such even when I think I know where some place is, or like I often realize (actually someone else tells me lol) that I have a completely wrong idea of where places are in relation to other places, or like there's this mountain and lately I've been so fascinated by it and by how I simply can't figure it out, like I've seen it a million times, used to look at it every day from my bedroom window, climbed it so many times, and I still have no fucking clue where it is or how it even fits into environment.
I'm also terrible at 3D games.




The Penguin said:


> I never really observed his perspective, I just heard him talk about his intention, so you could be right.
> 
> *I know somebody on this forum that could use a ban, just saying.*


I'm all ears :distant:


__________________
@spicycucumber sounds way more 7 imo! 


__________________
Really thinking about ESE, something suddenly clicked and I think I could see it, plus 1D Ti makes a lot more sense than Ti HA, Fi ignoring also makes sense, SEI typing is making me want to scream tbh (actually maybe close mouth complex thing? I often just feel like screaming)
Most other things about it don't really make sense though :laughing:
But I do have something I associate with ESE.


----------



## spicycucumber

Thanks for your insights @NissaNissa , @ThePenguin , and @Vixey !!!


----------



## Darkbloom

Maybe ESE 6w7/7w6?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

ElectricSlime said:


> Dostoevsky took part in revolutionary groups with communist leanings, and then ditched those materialistic aspirations to instead focus on salvation through Christ and spirituality, *inciting Russia towards a collectivist unity based on altruistic and traditional values.*


And that isn't Fe to you, as you say, moving Russia towards a collectivistic unity? 



> Extroverted ethics is an extroverted, rational, and dynamic information element. It is also called Fe, E, the ethics of emotions, or black ethics. Fe is generally associated with the ability to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, *and build a sense of community and emotional unity.*


And Socionists type him as EII, which have Fe-Ignoring. Hence my problem with that typing. Although, I'm sure there are other reasons why he could be Fi-ego too.



ElectricSlime said:


> Edit: @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> I’d be careful to put any person who takes part in revolutionary aspirations as Beta, that’s ridiculous.


_"I am a ridiculous man."_

Wasn't even my point...



mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, but when he was younger Dostoevsky was part of some radical revolutionary circle, which he was then exiled to Siberia for, almost executed, and then he had his spiritual awakening and such, so perhaps why he's critical of it is rooted in his experience. *Not saying that makes him Beta, but the Dostoevsky of The Brothers Karamazov and all his later works is a different man with a different outlook.* He isn't Gamma, though, as I think he's a NF. And yeah, Alyosha would be EII. He was pretty Se PoLR.


And you already knew about his past too, which I figured anyways, but your reasons for him being Delta (i.e dissuading revolution) are in opposition to his earlier self. And of course, it's Russia, so don't think it's a strong point, but I was just pointing it out. 



owlet said:


> I can get you sources about the 4 lack of identity thing if you want. The issue is that 4s themselves feel flawed, but without a strong sense of identity and significance (or 'place') they see in others (hence envy), so they try to find their identity but latch onto more 'overt' aspects like I explained before - some may be their flaws, while for others it may be their role or other things, but it generally comes out as more one-dimensional and rigid than a person should naturally be (as people are fluid and don't have a set 'thing' that determines their self).


No, I know it comes from Riso-Hudson, and I don't disagree with it, but it's odd to me that a 4 would fear not having an identity, when they're often so aware of it, and maybe I can't recognize it now, or would envy others who have a stronger sense of identity. I envy people who seem to be everything I wish to be, but am not.

Anyways, this is closer to how I view my internal process: Type 4 -- Enneagram Personality Dynamnics Diagram 



> Sorry, I'm not very interested in typing celebrities or using them as examples, so I can't comment.


It was meant as an example of someone I believe to be a 4 to explain the concept I was talking about, rather than about typing him. He expresses it well. I think it's interesting to find celebrities who express their type so well, because it means there's some truth to all of this outside of the forum.



> Okay, but enneagram is supposed to be about spiritual self-improvement and understanding the self, so if you're not digging deep, it's missing the point.


It's more that I don't know if one is fully aware of their "core fear", so when you ask someone, "What is your core fear?", you're not likely to find a very clear answer that can relate to a type, or people can have other fears unrelated to their type too. I think the deepest you can go with the Enneagram is in understanding the Holy Ideas, which aren't discussed enough, because if you can find your Holy Idea, and especially the loss of it, you've found your type. 



> The things that mirror how you feel you should be are those things that 4s can latch onto (I wasn't covering every base in my post), but the main thing to take away is that type 4s want some kind of 'concrete' sense of self, rather than the self which is changeable and fluid. 4s also are preoccupied with their 'ideal self' or who they think they could be if only they weren't so inherently flawed etc. By the way, were you just replying to this, or were you going to weigh in on @*gambino* 's type?


Okay, not disagreeing with that. At least for me, still don't feel I'm looking for a concrete sense of self, like I change internally way too much to ever have that happen, and think it'd be boring in a way to be completely stable in one's sense self at all times. :Smilies1: Though, I do know I often search for myself constantly in order to say, "Yes, this is who I am, now I know!" while I breathe an annoying sigh of relief, so I see what you're getting at, but I usually know what I'm looking for, and the mirroring just confirms it to me. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> @*ElectricSlime* @*mistakenforstranger* yeah you guys know more about Dostoevsky than I ever will


I was into Dostevsky when I was younger, but haven't picked him up in years, or even think I want to any more. He lacks a sense of humor, which I guess may point to a Serious/Merry quadra difference here, or I'm missing the humor. I remember picking up Notes from Underground a couple years ago, and found it to be pretty funny actually when I didn't on my first reading. Crime and Punishment/Brothers K, on the other hand, feel _awfully_ serious.



Nissa Nissa said:


> But it's hard to find my Ni :dry:


What about your discussion yesterday about seeking Platonic ideals and spiral staircases and such lol?










I missed your SFJ-ish story you had posted today, but still don't think you're a Sensor, or have 1D Ni PoLR.



ElectricSlime said:


> I know probably no one here would buy Four for me but my god, the Riso&Hudson interpretation sounds a whole fucking lot like me. From the inner world to the endless fantasizing to intensifying of feelings, to the construction of grandiose narratives as an identity base to the wish to find a meaningful way of life for "me", the withdrawing to create mystery and hoping the person will get a clue. The envying of the spontaneity of the plebs covered by my self ego boosting disdain of their shallowness as opposed to my glorified "insights". My competitive nature also seems to stem from resentment and envy rather than a wish to be a star...


I've always said I believed you had a 4-fix, and even considered it as a core type for you in PM too. I always saw a lot of 4. Not sure if I think you're a core 4, but it isn't the most ridiculous idea honestly. 



ElectricSlime said:


> The difference seems to be that I conceal all those things behind a mask of being carefree and awesomesauce yet cynical (7w8ish I guess, although I seem to hold an aversion to E7s for some reason), while actual Fours delight in looking as weird as possible.


Well, that doesn't sound that 4, being carefree and awesomesauce lol, but don't think all 4s have to, or even want to, look weird. There are definitely 4s that are like that, but plenty of 4s that are not too. I know when I was first into Enneagram, I thought every 4 was supposed to be like the sad goth/emo kids who dressed all in black lol (who are likely 4s too, not really denying that), and I never was, or would even want to associate with that, so it did make me question if I was one, but I mean, it was a really superficial way to type at the time for me. Still, that's often the image portrayed of 4s, that they look "unique" or "weird", but there's also 4s like Leonard Cohen, Paul Simon, or Morrissey, and many others with a less unique presentation. It's more about your relationship to the image, not the image itself. Also why I don't really care all that much for typing someone on the basis of their image, even if there are _some_ patterns.



Wisteria said:


> I don't think conflict itself is Se, as it's more about the boundaries of space. It's not always about aggression, trying to intimidate someone or defending yourself. This probably explains it better


Well, like Se is described in this way, but has different manifestations:



> F, volitional sensing — information related to the essence of space.
> 
> 
> Functions:
> 
> 
> +F — defense, safeguard, shield, rebuff, battle for interests, acquisition, benefit, saving, thrift, accumulation of resources, profit.
> Depending on context, the concept «survival» may belong to +F-element (conservation of life) and -F-element (to survive due to the destruction of other). The same applies to the concepts of strength, will, living space)
> 
> 
> −F — seizure, attack, assault, aggression, pressure, influence, authority, power, control, volitional pressure, loss, weakness, and all +F manifestations.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

spicycucumber said:


> Fun!!
> 
> Sorry, I'm a little late to the party. Also, PLEASE find fault or agreement with my typing
> 
> I'm definitely an ENFp-Ne, SX__, and I think I'm some 7w6 4w3 1w9 combo. I'm assuming I'm 7w6 first, but could also be 1w9 first? Don't know if 1 matches with ENFp very well.
> 
> Thanks in advance!! :heart:


Based on this post alone, I think we can rule out 1 haha. And that's further confirmed by your later posts. 7 sounds like a great fit.


----------



## Super Luigi

Vixey said:


> Not relatable tbh
> (but that seems to be mbti Si, not socionics Si?)


Guess it was pointless then. Forget it.
I don't really understand Socionics.



spicycucumber said:


> Thanks for your insights @*NissaNissa* , @*ThePenguin* , and @*Vixey* !!!


You're welcome


----------



## Super Luigi

@mistakenforstranger

You were talking about Enneagram 4, interesting.

Can you describe how Enneagram 4 works, please?


----------



## spicycucumber

Hooray!! Thanks @mistakenforstranger !!


----------



## nep2une

I feel like I should post something here but I'm not exactly sure what to say and I don't want to do a bunch of disconnected rambling so. Plus I'm feeling rusty with enneagram after so long switching gears to socionics. 

Does everything in my sig look alright? I think the one thing I've wondered about tweaking in particular is the head-fix… maybe…


----------



## Dangerose

@Vixey have you met ESE 6w7s? it can be like their lives revolve around the dishes
(OBVIOUSLY not all are like that, thinking specific people that are both really like that, don't see why that type would add to that phenomenon though)

(I think I often get bored/want to show people how polite I am and caring about the dishes or whatever so it can seem at moments like my whole lives revolve around these things, like if people are being quiet at the table I'll latch onto a recent topic and try to make more of it, constantly talking about chores and stuff I don't care about or 'problems' that don't bother me, because other people were recently talking about them)

which is probably annoying but I just wanna fit it in :crying:

been doing it a lot at this current job, partly because my job is basically housekeeping and I want it to seem like I care about my job lol


----------



## Dangerose

@Vixey have you met ESE 6w7s? it can be like their lives revolve around the dishes
(OBVIOUSLY not all are like that, thinking specific people that are both really like that, don't see why that type would add to that phenomenon though)

(I think I often get bored/want to show people how polite I am and caring about the dishes or whatever so it can seem at moments like my whole lives revolve around these things, like if people are being quiet at the table I'll latch onto a recent topic and try to make more of it, constantly talking about chores and stuff I don't care about or 'problems' that don't bother me, because other people were recently talking about them)

which is probably annoying but I just wanna fit it in :crying:

been doing it a lot at this current job, partly because my job is basically housekeeping and I want it to seem like I care about my job 

in reality I don't care AT ALL if some guy's house has ivy near the window (heaven forfend) or if his grill is clean or the floor is not perfectly clean-looking, bring up that stupid last one all the time like 'oh, the floor looks so dirty, it's so hard to clean!' and I don't care

just making the guest bedrooms look welcoming

mistaken (hopefully cancelled mention before you got the disappointing and annoying mention+quote in same post, wasn't thinking!) it was very long story (be thankful you missed it) about how I wanted the guest bedrooms to look more welcoming and pleasant and there was one room that I changed to prettier bedsheets and was pleased with myself and when I was ironing and planning to do the whole bedroom myself coworkers came in to do the room and put on the boring, ugly sheets, I told them 'no no no I'll do it see' but they insisted, was SO angry, still am a little lol,
wanted it to look like nice place to live  and the guys to associate their having nice place to live with my making it so  and control over the situation :angry:

So I think quite Si-ish and caregiverish, no?

(Remember as a kid frequently decorating my parents' room, too)



mistakenforstranger said:


> What about your discussion yesterday about seeking Platonic ideals and spiral staircases and such lol?


Well no one really said anything about that lol
And I don't know where I find Ni _in my life_, can't think of a moment that would be like 'oh there's Nissa, doing Ni again'
sounds stupider than what I mean



>


:lovekitty:



> I missed your SFJ-ish story you had posted today, but still don't think you're a Sensor, or have 1D Ni PoLR.


It is above, in much reduced form ^
thanks for opinion)

__________________

edit: I'm legitimately still angry at those girls doing the stupid bedrooms when I expressly told them not to

For other reasons too that it was part of my plan, Si-ish plan though, and too boring to explain, I had a NUMBER of reasons for wanting it like that and they couldn't just let it alone
want to go in and change it but they'd notice and it would be just a really weird thing to do so I won't 
But I WANT to


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa just change it 

(and yeah not sure how Si+6w7 would make me any less stereotypically Si, or 6w7 lol, but idk)


----------



## Darkbloom

nep2une said:


> the one thing I've wondered about tweaking in particular is the head-fix… maybe…


Which ones are you considering?


----------



## Darkbloom

Speaking of head fixes, also 'least accurate fix' thread reminded me, any thoughts on my head fix?
6w7 and 7 always end up feeling wrong to me, 7 doesn't even seem like a real type to me or something and I have a hard time connecting it to fear/anxiety (do not attempt to explain to me how it's connected to fear, I know, it just always ends up feeling nonsensical to me, subjectively, somehow unfamiliar and difficult to connect to my life)
But I realize I don't vibe as 6w5 or 5 fixed at all, still 6w5 feels more right than anything with 7.


----------



## Dangerose

Reminds me, think I am 7 fixed but I don't exactly associate my 7 with fear/anxiety either, think it's definitely 2 filtered 7 or maybe *just 2* that it still comes more from feeling of emotional deprivation than anything else. like to me there's not a strong difference between being bored or lonely, I mean there is but I expect people to understand one from the other, it's like I have 7, but it doesn't come from 7 I don't think.

Still feels like the right fix, maybe that's what fixes are only anyways, the shape of something that originally flows from core type, if not I could be 6 fix (I know some people really strongly believe I am?) but it doesn't feel like it says much about me

open to all thoughts on my gut fix, they're all equal to me pretty much, my gut feeling is always for some reason to lean towards 8 but it seems likely my gut feeling is wrong


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> Reminds me, think I am 7 fixed but I don't exactly associate my 7 with fear/anxiety either, think it's definitely 2 filtered 7 or maybe *just 2* that it still comes more from feeling of emotional deprivation than anything else. like to me there's not a strong difference between being bored or lonely, I mean there is but I expect people to understand one from the other, it's like I have 7, but it doesn't come from 7 I don't think.
> 
> Still feels like the right fix, maybe that's what fixes are only anyways, the shape of something that originally flows from core type, if not I could be 6 fix (I know some people really strongly believe I am?) but it doesn't feel like it says much about me
> 
> open to all thoughts on my gut fix, they're all equal to me pretty much, my gut feeling is always for some reason to lean towards 8 but it seems likely my gut feeling is wrong


No thoughts on One, since it’s something I haven’t seen here much from you but could be present in your life off boards. You don’t strike me as having strict standards or a streak of criticism, in that sense I might be more One than you.

Not Eight. According to your anecdotes (the one with putting your bag and getting help in the train? Something like that. And being clueless and waiting until someone gives you directions? Sorry I don’t remember your stories precisely), you lack the unapologetic and expansive taking up of space from Eights, as well as a natural instinct to navigate the environment (in a physical sense) in order to acquire your due.

You do have a certain reactivity to yourself however based solely on forum interactions so I’d roll with 9w8.


----------



## Darkbloom

9w8 is like the only gut fix I can't see for you for some reason @Nissa Nissa 
(really not sure why?)
Think 7 is right for head.


Does my gut fix seem 9w8 to everyone?


----------



## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> And that isn't Fe to you, as you say, moving Russia towards a collectivistic unity?
> 
> And Socionists type him as EII, which have Fe-Ignoring. Hence my problem with that typing. Although, I'm sure there are other reasons why he could be Fi-ego too.


"Delta is the quadra of establishment and unity. Under Delta, all aspects of life are organized and unified into a sustainable whole that attempts to treat each individual according to their needs and maximize their usefulness for the perceived common good."


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> No thoughts on One, since it’s something I haven’t seen here much from you but could be present in your life off boards. You don’t strike me as having strict standards or a streak of criticism, in that sense I might be more One than you.


(k I know you were just giving thoughts but I got inspired, sorry)

Yeah, I don't really relate to the One mechanism, first type I typed as was One though because I related to striving for perfection! Considered myself a perfectionist (like an artist, devoted to art, I was devoted to perfection...)

But I think it was more of a silly game I was playing haha, and I haven't been like that much recently, I used to be more...harsh and standardy, also used to...for example I remember relating so much I wanted to cry to a line from a Sting song 'the search for perfection is all very well but to look for Heaven is to live here in Hell', don't remember that feeling though :frustrating: so I'd guess it was only momentarily endemic to my personality

And I used to...like as a kid I was very prescriptivist, hated abbreviations ahaha, wanted to do everything EXACTLY 'right', I thought there was a right, perfect way for everything, and wanted to have really high standards in school, used to pretend teachers were harder than they were, I'd spend hours making a homework assignment _look nice_, often teachers would post my things on the walls as an example :kitteh: 

had a little book of virtues and I'd practice a particular virtue every day  and read in a book about people doing 'penances' when they did something wrong so I'd obsessively look for things I did wrong and put rocks in my shoes for it, remember guiltily 'confessing' all my wrongdoings to my mother every night too as a kid, really annoyed her lol, might just be more of a weird Catholic guilt thing lol

Actually many of my '1' things might just be being a practising Catholic :/

Was remembering today being a kid and watching a film where there was a servant singing and I said something like 'ahahaha she's not ever singing well' and my mother was like 'but does it matter? it's just nice that she's singing, I like it when people just sing' and that actually made strong impression on me, more the ways I've leaned of late years, would say that was way too easy an integration to 7    

Anyways that's why 1?



> Not Eight. According to your anecdotes (the one with putting your bag and getting help in the train? Something like that. And being clueless and waiting until someone gives you directions? Sorry I don’t remember your stories precisely), you lack the unapologetic and expansive taking up of space from Eights, as well as a natural instinct to navigate the environment (in a physical sense) in order to acquire your due.


Yeah, this is why I usually shy away (ha) from typing at Eight fix, just don't take up space like that in situations where I'm not comfortable

(but I feel like I accidentally take up space a lot when I am comfortable, like I was walking the other day with two girls and I was trying to be polite about 'where do you want to go' but ended up still kinda forcing them to go my way anyways, realized that was annoying them a little)

But well, I was a little monster when I was younger, I hated any sign of weakness, would always get mad at people when they were just lying around when they were sick, was convinced you could just not be sick through willpower and physical exercise, was so proud of myself for 'never getting sick' and if I detected some signs of imminent illness I'd try to go running or something, if I was walking with someone and they were like 'you're going too fast I can't keep up' I would try to politely disguise my slight hatred of them and be like 'let this be a lesson to you then', was really big on building character in general, it took me a long time in life to stop being a jerk about weakness and to stop despising it, frankly I stopped too much because I've become SUCH a milksop

was like a little army general in general though as a child XD remember seeing somewhere that slogan 'pain is weakness leaving the body' and I fell in love with that lol, described my whole philosophy, don't think I realized it was about exercising, I more thought that everything in the world could be achieved through sheer willpower, remember would often beat people in physical contests as a kid because I just wouldn't stop, was extremely proud of my ability to withstand pain and would often challenge people to 'who will show signs of pain first!' contests, always won roud:

and teachers in school would always complain like 'oh she's so sweet but OH MY GOD IN GROUP PROJECTS she takes over the whole group'

and yeah not going to write essay but relate to 8 for some of those reasons, not fully though for some obvious reasons



> You do have a certain reactivity to yourself however based solely on forum interactions so I’d roll with 9w8.


9 just on process of elimination or do you see active signs of 9?
@Vixey yeah I almost feel the same XD
and yes


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Nissa Nissa
Tend to think 9w1 for your gut-fix but idk, think it's probably your last fix too so that can muddy things.


----------



## Super Luigi

Vixey said:


> I'm all ears :distant:


Send me a Private Message. I won't say it in a thread. :laughing:


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> Send me a Private Message. I won't say it in a thread. :laughing:


Fake Eight.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> Fake Eight.


hahaha :laughing:


----------



## Darkbloom

.


----------



## Dangerose

Met a guy really into astrology, made him guess my signs and stuff (don't believe in astrology btw, was just curious, anyways got some personality descriptors from near-stranger)

He said main thing was that he was sure I was a fire sign because I obviously have a fiery personality :hotneko: which I appreciated, always relate most to fire lol but people online kept saying I was earthy 

also that I seemed slightly aggressive and overbearing  which is funny because two minutes before my boss was laughing at how shy and confused I am

(but somehow I'm both at the same time, that's part of what makes it confusing about gut type)

also guessed I was Year of the Dog but I bet he was just correctly guessing my age :laughing:

so there's that, always looking for 'objective' personality analysis

edit: oh, think he said I had a very masculine energy too


----------



## nep2une

Nissa Nissa said:


> also that I seemed slightly aggressive and overbearing  which is funny because two minutes before my boss was laughing at how shy and confused I am
> 
> (but somehow I'm both at the same time, that's part of what makes it confusing about gut type)


I'm guessing that has to do with comfort level? Did you feel more comfortable around the near-stranger than you do around your boss? 



Vixey said:


> Which ones are you considering?


Was considering maybe jamming some 7 in there somewhere... but… eh… maybe not…? I don't know? I get the feeling that the painting might be slanted a little and I need to straighten it out. Tidy it up. Get everything in order. If it's even out of order in the first place.


----------



## Dangerose

nep2une said:


> I'm guessing that has to do with comfort level? Did you feel more comfortable around the near-stranger than you do around your boss?


Yes))



> Was considering maybe jamming some 7 in there somewhere... but… eh… maybe not…? I don't know? I get the feeling that the painting might be slanted a little and I need to straighten it out. Tidy it up. Get everything in order. If it's even out of order in the first place.


Why 7?
(I don't have a clear image for your head type in general, 6w5 doesn't seem wrong at least? would want to hear more about your reactions to fear etc)


----------



## Wisteria

mistakenforstranger said:


> Well, like Se is described in this way, but has different manifestations:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F, volitional sensing — information related to the essence of space.
> 
> Functions:
> +F — defense, safeguard, shield, rebuff, battle for interests, acquisition, benefit, saving, thrift, accumulation of resources, profit.
> Depending on context, the concept «survival» may belong to +F-element (conservation of life) and -F-element (to survive due to the destruction of other). The same applies to the concepts of strength, will, living space)
> 
> −F — seizure, attack, assault, aggression, pressure, influence, authority, power, control, volitional pressure, loss, weakness, and all +F manifestations.
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with the signs yet. They do seem complicated though, so never looked into them :/ The source I used didn't mention it was an example of +F (/+Se), but perhaps it was? I used that example to explain that Se isn't always about conflict and aggression. Maybe this difference is related to the signs.


----------



## Darkbloom

nep2une said:


> I'm guessing that has to do with comfort level? Did you feel more comfortable around the near-stranger than you do around your boss?
> 
> 
> 
> Was considering maybe jamming some 7 in there somewhere... but… eh… maybe not…? I don't know? I get the feeling that the painting might be slanted a little and I need to straighten it out. Tidy it up. Get everything in order. If it's even out of order in the first place.


Hm not sure, what Nissa said basically!
I remember you once saying something about being surprised about no one questioning your head fix, or something similar, sorry in case I'm totally wrong  , and it was surprising to me because 6w5 seemed fine and kinda what I'd expect your head fix to be (don't think that means much, just my current feelings, could see 6w7 or 7w6 depending on how you relate to 7 over 5)
I see more competency influence than positive and such but it could be coming from 3w4 too.


_________
I don't understand how I'm supposed to use those +/- things :frustrating:


----------



## Darkbloom

Could people see 6 core for me?

I always think there's no way because head type doesn't feel right at all (actually would say it's my last fix?) but idk, some things about it could be right, like I'm scared of nearly everything, have at least 5 actual phobias and keep discovering more and then hundreds of normal fears, and I'm very cowardly when it comes to my fears, never really want to overcome anything.
And my strategy for dealing with it is to make people feel delighted to take care of me which I guess is sp 2-ish but maybe more 6?


----------



## BroNerd

Vixey said:


> Could people see 6 core for me?
> 
> I always think there's no way because head type doesn't feel right at all (actually would say it's my last fix?) but idk, some things about it could be right, like I'm scared of nearly everything, have at least 5 actual phobias and keep discovering more and then hundreds of normal fears, and I'm very cowardly when it comes to my fears, never really want to overcome anything.
> And my strategy for dealing with it is to make people feel delighted to take care of me which I guess is sp 2-ish but maybe more 6?


Having phobias doesn’t mean you’re a 6. Any type can struggle with that. I’m a 7-fixed 3 who has anxiety disorder. Except for a hyper nervous system, I don’t relate to being a 6.

Having people be delighted to take care of you does have 2ish components to it but I could see a 7 taking that approach too. Especially if sought out in a way that’s excessive and where it’s about the consumption of that feedback (type 7) rather than the emotional bonds formed from that feedback (type 2) or the security obtained (type 6). I guess with a 7, I’d still see some semblance of self-reliance. That becomes more of an addiction.

Also if your reaction to anxious feelings is to ignore them and focus on positive/fun experiences. I’d say 7 over 6.


----------



## Super Luigi

How does Enneagram 4 handle feelings of anxiety?

I believe it would differ between 4w3 and 4w5, one is looking for success whereas the other is looking for an understanding.


----------



## Darkbloom

@The Penguin agree with stranger that it mostly sounds like So instinct, not sure about the rest, you and your avatar are an enigma to me


----------



## Darkbloom

@ElectricSlime do you think I'm so/sx or sx/so? Or sx last? 
(I believe you were hinting at So first when you said unadulterated So?)


----------



## spicycucumber

Vixey said:


> How do you relate to them?


Reactive:
People whose dominant Harmonic approach is the reactive approach are *emotionally reactive under stress*. *They tend to work themselves up when a problem happens and have a hard time containing their feelings. *This emotional intensity allows them to feel the "realness" of the problem, even if it is a relatively small one. *Venting their frustration allows them to move on to dealing with the issue.* Wanting others to see the realness of the problem, they expect others to react emotionally. Such a reaction would confirm that others agree that indeed this is a big deal. *If others don't respond in the way the Reactive approach types want, they may become even more frustrated and emotional.* (only in romantic relationships)
*The Reactive approach is not naturally trusting of others*. *They have strong opinions and tastes* and want to know where others stand.
Their desire for a strong emotional response from others may be a test of trust.

Positive:
People whose dominant Harmonic approach is the Positive Outlook approach are* generally optimistic and tend to avoid negative thoughts* *or situations*. *Under stress, they seek to avoid the problem, distract themselves with something else*, or minimize the problem. *These types want to feel good and want others around them feel good*. They would rather have everyone happy (including themselves) than to deal with problems or negativity (especially in themselves). (Not if I'm annoyed, irritated, or angry..especially in romantic relationships) Unfortunately this approach can lead them to deny the existence of their problems and therefore delay addressing them.

*These types also have issues with finding a balance between meeting their own needs and meeting the needs of others.*

I think I'm more honest about my feelings when I'm feeling angry, irritated, or annoyed especially in romantic relationships (not as comfortable with insecurities, sadness). If someone I'm in a relationship with doesn't meet my expectations, I let them know it. (Don't know if SX dominate has anything to do it with it). I'm not at all likely to sweep it under the rug for the other person's benefit. If I'm upset, they're gonna hear about it (romantically speaking). I am not like this at all with my girlfriends. I tend to assume the best, sweep things under the rug, etc.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

@*spicycucumber*, yeah think the reactivity you're seeing in yourself could be from being sx-first, especially because you say it occurs mostly in romantic relationships. The sx-7 I knew was also quite reactive in that sense too, despite not being a "reactive" type. 

@*Vixey*, think considering social in stacking would be interesting for you, like you don't seem that so-blind to me on here, but not sure how you would be in real-life. I didn't follow along with that discussion of fame, but do agree with Slime that it's related to Social and have seen this mentioned in descriptions too, but I would also think 3-wing would play a part in it, and you don't seem sx-last either. Though I do think 2s are kind of a sx-type regardless of instinct, but I'm not saying that about you. If you read through that whole post, do I still sound sp/so, or something else? :rolldeyes:

Thanks @*ElectricSlime*, have considered so/sp for myself and would say I'm probably more engaging on here than in real-life, but I'm not really formal like @*Mr Castelo* said earlier about sp/so either. Did you also mean 9-fix or core (because of your belief in tritype)? I did type as 9-fix before and I also type higher on it than I do 1 on tests, so yeah.


----------



## Lunacik

@*The Penguin* thus far I see Fe for you for sure.

I'm not as familiar with Enneagram as I am with MBTI, but I always end up seeing 5 when I research. I'm just still not confident in this conclusion anyways. Someone help?


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> If you read through that whole post, do I still sound sp/so, or something else? :rolldeyes:


 Read the post but I didn't want to say anything because I don't have any new thoughts, still kinda think sx last and no clue what to do with your sp (or mine or anyone's  ), you still feel sp/so to me but it's as vague as last time so I feel bad saying it lol 


And thanks :fox:


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Vixey said:


> Read the post but I didn't want to say anything because I don't have any new thoughts, still kinda think sx last and no clue what to do with your sp (or mine or anyone's  ), you still feel sp/so to me but it's as vague as last time so I feel bad saying it lol
> 
> 
> And thanks :fox:


Haha, I'm just interested in any feedback really, even vague impressions, but yeah, I can agree I give off a sp/so vibe on here. I thought maybe so/sx, but do know some people who are that type and see some differences too that would make it less likely. That type is a bit more outgoing than I am, even in introverts. Probably will stick with it, or just throw the entire Enneagram away at this point haha...:frustrating:


----------



## heavydirtysoul

RGB said:


> @*The Penguin* thus far I see Fe for you for sure.
> 
> I'm not as familiar with Enneagram as I am with MBTI, but I always end up seeing 5 when I research. I'm just still not confident in this conclusion anyways. Someone help?


I think he might be a So/Sx Fi.


----------



## heavydirtysoul

Need help, not quite sure if I am 6w7 or 7w6, 3w2 or 2w3, and sx/sp or sp/sx. Is there anybody willing to give me some thoughts? Have you ever met a 2w3 ENTJ, what would they look like?


----------



## Lunacik

I'm not as familiar with Enneagram as I am with MBTI, but I always end up seeing 5 for myself when I research. I'm just still not confident in this conclusion anyways. Someone help? I'm confident in INFJ / IEI-Fe. Also confident in sx being first. Even my former psychology professor typed me as INFJ via observation before I heard of MBTI, so that one's rather solid.


----------



## Mr Castelo

@mistakenforstranger

People associate SX with obsession because SX people supposedly feel things more intensely, I guess. I don't really agree with the idea that obsession = SX, it's more than that, though I can see SX being more prone to obsessive behavior.

After reading your post, I think I can see you being sx-last. Like @ElectricSlime said, there's a certain cautiousness in the way you describe yourself, it doesn't come across as deeply personal even if you might feel that way. I have my theory that, in some people, perhaps especially Intuitives, the SP instinct manifests more as a need for psychological stability/security rather than physical, which creates that kind of "distance" from others.


----------



## Darkbloom

heavydirtysoul said:


> Need help, not quite sure if I am 6w7 or 7w6, 3w2 or 2w3, and sx/sp or sp/sx. Is there anybody willing to give me some thoughts? Have you ever met a 2w3 ENTJ, what would they look like?


Not sure but curious about your reasons for 2, ENTJ 2 is an odd combination (don't think it's impossible though), how do you relate to both?


----------



## heavydirtysoul

Vixey said:


> Not sure but curious about your reasons for 2, ENTJ 2 is an odd combination (don't think it's impossible though), how do you relate to both?


Been thinking about it - you are right, it wouldn't make sense, I have exaggerated the notion of 2s' ambition relating myself to it. Although, it occurs to me there actually is a couple of examples of 2w3 ENTJs - Regina George (Mean Girls), Katherine Pierce (The Vampire Diaries). 

Curious, what would a healthy sx/sp 3w2 look like? How would it differ from sp/sx 3w2?


----------



## Super Luigi

heavydirtysoul said:


> So/Sx Fi


getting warmer


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> @*The Penguin* thus far I see Fe for you for sure.
> 
> I'm not as familiar with Enneagram as I am with MBTI, but I always end up seeing 5 when I research. I'm just still not confident in this conclusion anyways. Someone help?


IEI-Fe and 5w4 seems like an unlikely combination. Mainly because Five is at its core about a certain emotional crippling through a schizoid disposition and detachment from what we see as social needs. That’s something that Riso and Hudson, as opposed to Naranjo, kinda whitewhashed as a concept and is probably responsible for all introverted “intellectual” people to mistype as Five. So I’d read Naranjo’s description if I were you.

AFAIK IEIs explore their feelings (which is not exactly the same as intellectualizing and analyzing them the way Five does). W5 is very much possible however, and both 4w5 and 6w5 aren’t ridiculous typings in that sense. I’d say that from my own observations it goes like this: Four > Six = Nine > Three. I have yet to see an IEI that is not one of those.

So I’d first ask you if you relate to the head triad or the heart triad, as well as to competency or to reactive. This should give enough information to go on.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> @ElectricSlime do you think I'm so/sx or sx/so? Or sx last?
> (I believe you were hinting at So first when you said unadulterated So?)


I wasn't hinting at SO first so much as the fact that it couldn't be interpreted as anything but SO.

It's hard to pronounce myself on your instincts, as I prefer typing people on how they interact IRL rather than their self perception or forum behavior. I can only go on a slight bit of information, aside from your family dynamics, which I don't consider the most reliable indicative of how you interact and process the world, aside from conflicting quadra values perhaps. That bit of information suggested introvert, but I don't know how natural it is for you. That is why I have a hard time visualizing you as an extrovert, unless you had social anxiety.

Sx/So I have a hard time imagining. Not sure for So/Sx, unlikely but not worth ruling out imo.

I have a Sp/So hunch, you remind me of Daisy from Gatsby.


----------



## Dangerose

@ElectricSlime what do you think for my instincts btw?

(open to everyone's thoughts, just don't think I ever heard?)

(sorry, know there's so much I should be responding too, just been in not very forumy mood lately and now travelling, imagine I'll be on a bit more soon)

(mistaken don't think I'm not going to respond to your thing, tomorrow or the next day I think)


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Nissa Nissa

I like So/Sx for you.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> I wasn't hinting at SO first so much as the fact that it couldn't be interpreted as anything but SO.


Well it is SO probably on it's own, I agree.



> It's hard to pronounce myself on your instincts, as I prefer typing people on how they interact IRL rather than their self perception or forum behavior. I can only go on a slight bit of information, aside from your family dynamics, which I don't consider the most reliable indicative of how you interact and process the world, aside from conflicting quadra values perhaps. That bit of information suggested introvert, but I don't know how natural it is for you. That is why I have a hard time visualizing you as an extrovert, unless you had social anxiety.


I think I have social anxiety, always had it so it's hard to think of it as a separate thing, but I'm also becoming more introverted with age I feel, feel like I often think I'm more extroverted than I am because I usually have more energy than I spend and I love being around people more than I am around people, I'm excitable and such and always want to do things but in reality it quickly becomes too much unless everything's on my own terms, tbh always wished I could turn people on and off as I please, and remember when I was younger being _so_ bored but I wanted my family specifically to do things with me, I'd tell my friends I'm out of town all the time during holidays, I had like two to three friends at most and apparently that was too much for me  
Or I'm somehow always friends with people who are diffrent from me and have different tastes and ways of wanting to spend free time and it just frustrates me, like wanted to go to this party a while ago, asked two girls I hang out with at college if they wanted to go and they looked at me like I was crazy :frustrating:

Sometimes I feel like the more extroverted I act the more energy I have, think I used to be more like that than I am now though, think I'm still like that with some things, like the more I do them the more I need them.


Feel like I come across sp-ish irl but like specific kind of sp, took me a while to notice and that's why I stick with sp typing, and well I don't think sx last (have you seen my collages? :tongue: )
(jk but yeah, curious why sx last?)

And what do you mean by conflicting quadra values?



> Sx/So I have a hard time imagining. Not sure for So/Sx, unlikely but not worth ruling out imo.
> 
> I have a Sp/So hunch, you remind me of Daisy from Gatsby.


But just a couple of days ago I said


> But I mean I'm not a status seeking person, and Gatsby would be a very lucky guy if he fell in love with me instead of Daisy, because he would not need to do So to meet his Sx needs, no one needs to appeal to my So to win me over


Do you not believe me or are you referring to some other Daisy-ish qualities?


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> IEI-Fe and 5w4 seems like an unlikely combination. Mainly because Five is at its core about a certain emotional crippling through a schizoid disposition and detachment from what we see as social needs. That’s something that Riso and Hudson, as opposed to Naranjo, kinda whitewhashed as a concept and is probably responsible for all introverted “intellectual” people to mistype as Five. So I’d read Naranjo’s description if I were you.
> 
> AFAIK IEIs explore their feelings (which is not exactly the same as intellectualizing and analyzing them the way Five does). W5 is very much possible however, and both 4w5 and 6w5 aren’t ridiculous typings in that sense. I’d say that from my own observations it goes like this: Four > Six = Nine > Three. I have yet to see an IEI that is not one of those.
> 
> So I’d first ask you if you relate to the head triad or the heart triad, as well as to competency or to reactive. This should give enough information to go on.


*Hey, thanks for this. I appreciate you taking the time to help.

Sorry, I know my response is lengthy, but...
*(also, bear in mind I'm unfamiliar with Enneagram, I'm newer to the actual research of it)
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
*4 in short:*
I would say I don't relate much to 4's identity theme...rather opposite.*

Elaboration:
*in spite of being highly introspective, I essentially perceive identity as being _mostly_ both fleeting and malleable (thus _de_valuing it) and I honestly feel more at ease with the opposite of identity, somewhat of a chameleon, especially for the sake of connecting with others and self-improvement. If I had to describe my identity with one word, it'd be "shifting" rather than "well-defined individual." I had an epiphany moment where I realized identity is fleeting several years ago. I have a 4 wing listed because of the art / being intensely emotional, though with the exception of when I'm going through things I don't know how to cope with as I am lately, I actually keep a lid on this and don't feel comfortable expressing. Come to think of it...I'm uncomfortable expressing still even then, I just spill over anyways. I seem to be rather emotionally contagious in the sense that at my best I lift others up and at my worst I bring them down. When I lean on someone else for something I am monitoring how it's affecting them and whether it's gone too far, becoming too much. I fear bringing them down. Also, idk if it's related, but I'm comfortable talking _about _my emotions from an analytical stance, but I am intensely uncomfortable with_ directly expressing_ them in front of anyone. It just gives me anxiety to try, even if at times it wants to come out, and it often does. I don't know. Usually this results in me writing a post and then deleting it online--OR writing something in an abstract way to obscure it or leave it open to interpretation or just go over everyone's heads unless they relate to it, in which case, I have no problem expressing it...rather inspire or something, if anything. I definitely do that IEI-Fe thing of talking about my problems with a smile on my face in face-to-face interactions. I might also joke about them, or simply focus on others instead of problems, disregarding or neglecting my own while just trying to leave a positive affect on others instead. When I'm having a bad day I ask a certain ENTP to make me laugh instead of delving into my emotions like I (think? if not mistaken?) a 4 would.
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
*5 Confusion Explanation:*
mind you I'm not about to try to prove I am more five, but I am trying to see where things are off because I just sense that something is indeed "off." When I research "4 compared to 5" I hit every single mark on being 5 basically. However, my emotions are rather intense and I am constantly managing them, desiring release from that intensity (intensity = my reason for identifying with w4). As a part of that I do at times just shutdown my emotions and solve problems to get to the root of it: if you solve the problems, the emotions no longer have reason to ensue. This requires analyzing my emotions, and shutting down to find solutions to get to the root cause has been something I identify with 5 for as well. So does not understanding my emotions very well. I have to figure out why in the world I do in fact feel that way because I don't always know. I cannot see inside myself very well at times. Others frequently know how I feel more accurately than I do sometimes. I have to stop and figure out what am I feeling, and why?
It sounds contradictory to the fact that I manage that "thick surging / undercurrent of constantly intense emotions" but it's just an "either or" thing pretty much. (I would rather feel next to nothing if I have to choose, which I realize is consistent with 9's desire for peace.) I've also recently come to understand when I put forth conscious effort (which feels rather natural), I have this same insight into others, rather above average actually, which I never knew a year ago.

*Thus far, as I talk all of this out I see 9w1 or even a 1w9 even more now actually*, thanks to a subtle suggestion from someone else. I relate to a 9 especially in the sense that I have to get away from others sometimes, lest I lose myself. Or, as I recently phrased it, "I find that I at times lose myself to those I cannot give myself to." What I mean is that I lose my sense of self by becoming too much like them, in spite of having tried to encase myself because I cannot allow myself to become close. I don't have a strong sense of identity (nor am I desirous of one), but I also don't like becoming someone else's...so it's important for me to not be too exclusive to a single person but to interact with many people and work on recognizing my need for space from a significant other (typically there will be 1-2 people I never really feel the need to introvert from but I need to get away in order to not "become" them still). I want myself to be more intact than that, at least...I start regaining confidence etc when I get away from people more sometimes. I recognize that I am easily influenced and I guard myself in this area. I have intentionally "molded" to fit what others need, also, in order to connect to them and fill the void in them: my brother likes for people to take interest in whatever he's into, and though I don't share the same interests I will still take interest because I am interested in showing him love in the way he needs it to be shown. I don't see this as not being true to myself, I see it as me adapting because the part which is my "self" is simply the part that loves and cares for them. The rest is malleable, changeable, and insignificant. I don't do well without those few deep connections such as this in my life; my life feels empty and vain at that point. Identity and authenticity? That which is consistent has a tendency to do what it's going to do and thus discover or define itself anyways, I don't need to mess with it too much...but balance is healthy, and understanding myself is important.
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
*Thoughts on 9w1 accuracy? Help?*


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> I think I have social anxiety, always had it so it's hard to think of it as a separate thing, but I'm also becoming more introverted with age I feel, feel like I often think I'm more extroverted than I am because I usually have more energy than I spend and I love being around people more than I am around people, I'm excitable and such and always want to do things but in reality it quickly becomes too much unless everything's on my own terms, *tbh always wished I could turn people on and off as I please*


Don't we all :smug: I've learned with time that you reap what you sow, meaning that if you don't make the effort into maintaining friendships and acquaintances, or compromising, people do get fed up past a point. I pay more attention to that now, although I still tend to disappear into the shadows doing my own thing instead of getting involved.



> and remember when I was younger being _so_ bored but I wanted my family specifically to do things with me, I'd tell my friends I'm out of town all the time during holidays, I had like two to three friends at most and apparently that was too much for me
> Or I'm somehow always friends with people who are diffrent from me and have different tastes and ways of wanting to spend free time and it just frustrates me, like wanted to go to this party a while ago, asked two girls I hang out with at college if they wanted to go and they looked at me like I was crazy :frustrating:


Interesting. I don't take initiative for that stuff, people have to kick me in the ass or give me a convincing speech to get me moving to parties, bars or whatever lol. Think that could be relevant to your type in some way but not sure how.



> Sometimes I feel like the more extroverted I act the more energy I have, think I used to be more like that than I am now though, think I'm still like that with some things, like the more I do them the more I need them.


So fake it till you effectively make it ?

If I understand you correctly, I'm the same. I tend to adapt to my situation. Meaning if I'm on my own for a while I'll start to make it my default state and live in introversion, reluctant to come out of it depending on how long it takes, but if I'm active in some way I make it a default state and am a bigger presence than most.



> (have you seen my collages? :tongue: )


Fuck collages 



> (jk but yeah, curious why sx last?)


Why not ? I think the way you express your concerns seems filtered through a Sp/So glass, i.e living in material security with prestigious company.

And I don't buy into the idea that one's blindspot is pretty much an area of autism like some like to describe. 



> And what do you mean by conflicting quadra values?


Well I know for a fact that I'm in a Te/Fi valuing family aside from my youngest sister who is a textbook Alpha, and that tends to result in a certain repression of behavior and lack of positive reinforcement from their side.

Basically they get pissy when they receive Ti input and look at me like an alien when I try and spark Fe out of them. They, on the other hand, are always talking about boring productivity shit and shitting on my own aspirations. As such my usual social presence kinda fades away when I'm at home and I retreat into my lair, then they get surprised when interesting company comes home and I suddenly get outgoing.

It's the kind of story I've heard before in Socionics boards and fits with my own experience, I know a few people who seem to live in households that share their quadra for the most part, and they're "tighter".



> Do you not believe me or are you referring to some other Daisy-ish qualities?


Come on now, you just talked not long ago about marrying Trump (or someone of similar position) and having him follow you around in stores and buy you shit. Not to mention your talks about appearing on talk shows and being interviewed by hosts


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> *Hey, thanks for this. I appreciate you taking the time to help.*


*No prob!




Elaboration:
in spite of being highly introspective, I essentially perceive identity as being mostly both fleeting and malleable (thus devaluing it) and I honestly feel more at ease with the opposite of identity, somewhat of a chameleon, especially for the sake of connecting with others and self-improvement. If I had to describe my identity with one word, it'd be "shifting" rather than "well-defined individual." I had an epiphany moment where I realized identity is fleeting several years ago. I have a 4 wing listed because of the art / being intensely emotional, though with the exception of when I'm going through things I don't know how to cope with as I am lately, I actually keep a lid on this and don't feel comfortable expressing. Come to think of it...I'm uncomfortable expressing still even then, I just spill over anyways. I seem to be rather emotionally contagious in the sense that at my best I lift others up and at my worst I bring them down. When I lean on someone else for something I am monitoring how it's affecting them and whether it's gone too far, becoming too much. I fear bringing them down. Also, idk if it's related, but I'm comfortable talking about my emotions from an analytical stance, but I am intensely uncomfortable with directly expressing them in front of anyone. It just gives me anxiety to try, even if at times it wants to come out, and it often does. I don't know. Usually this results in me writing a post and then deleting it online--OR writing something in an abstract way to obscure it or leave it open to interpretation or just go over everyone's heads unless they relate to it, in which case, I have no problem expressing it...rather inspire or something, if anything. I definitely do that IEI-Fe thing of talking about my problems with a smile on my face in face-to-face interactions. I might also joke about them, or simply focus on others instead of problems, disregarding or neglecting my own while just trying to leave a positive affect on others instead. When I'm having a bad day I ask a certain ENTP to make me laugh instead of delving into my emotions like I (think? if not mistaken?) a 4 would.

Click to expand...

Yeah, definitely not Four lol.

That's actually interesting to me, I monitor my interactions similarly to you and share your chameleon-like behavior. The difference is that I agonize over this tendency of mine and don't devalue my personal sense of self, I actually seek it. I'm definitely more comfortable interacting from the distance of a mask rather than explicitly expressing my conceptualized "identity". Anyway, cool.

Also, in the bolded, are you talking about putting into words deep feelings in the context of a face to face interaction or about plainly expression your emotional state (happy, sly, sullen, etc) through your behavior/face ?




5 Confusion Explanation:
mind you I'm not about to try to prove I am more five, but I am trying to see where things are off because I just sense that something is indeed "off." When I research "4 compared to 5" I hit every single mark on being 5 basically.

Click to expand...

Do you mean the threads created by the community of "am i Four or Five" ? Cause most of those peep don't know what they're talking about. They fail to mention the hoarding and power seeking nature of the Five, as well as how truly pathetic it actually means to need to integrate at Eight because otherwise you impact the world as much as a fly crashing into a fortress.




However, my emotions are rather intense and I am constantly managing them, desiring release from that intensity (intensity = my reason for identifying with w4). As a part of that I do at times just shutdown my emotions and solve problems to get to the root of it: if you solve the problems, the emotions no longer have reason to ensue. This requires analyzing my emotions, and shutting down to find solutions to get to the root cause has been something I identify with 5 for as well. So does not understanding my emotions very well. I have to figure out why in the world I do in fact feel that way because I don't always know. I cannot see inside myself very well at times. Others frequently know how I feel more accurately than I do sometimes. I have to stop and figure out what am I feeling, and why?
It sounds contradictory to the fact that I manage that "thick surging / undercurrent of constantly intense emotions" but it's just an "either or" thing pretty much. (I would rather feel next to nothing if I have to choose, which I realize is consistent with 9's desire for peace.) I've also recently come to understand when I put forth conscious effort (which feels rather natural), I have this same insight into others, rather above average actually, which I never knew a year ago.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, I'm thinking you're out of touch with your Triad Center, whatever it is.

In any case, you remind me of a girl I once knew who was similar. Somewhat clueless and avoidant about her own deeper feelings, but quick to close down if she felt pushed into figuring it out. She might have been a Nine...

And my god, can't imagine myself not wanting to feel anything. Nothing worse than emptiness and apathy. 




Thus far, as I talk all of this out I see 9w1 or even a 1w9 even more now actually, thanks to a subtle suggestion from someone else. I relate to a 9 especially in the sense that I have to get away from others sometimes, lest I lose myself. Or, as I recently phrased it, "I find that I at times lose myself to those I cannot give myself to." What I mean is that I lose my sense of self by becoming too much like them, in spite of having tried to encase myself because I cannot allow myself to become close. I don't have a strong sense of identity (nor am I desirous of one), but I also don't like becoming someone else's...so it's important for me to not be too exclusive to a single person but to interact with many people and work on recognizing my need for space from a significant other (typically there will be 1-2 people I never really feel the need to introvert from but I need to get away in order to not "become" them still). I want myself to be more intact than that, at least...I start regaining confidence etc when I get away from people more sometimes. I recognize that I am easily influenced and I guard myself in this area. I have intentionally "molded" to fit what others need, also, in order to connect to them and fill the void in them: my brother likes for people to take interest in whatever he's into, and though I don't share the same interests I will still take interest because I am interested in showing him love in the way he needs it to be shown. I don't see this as not being true to myself, I see it as me adapting because the part which is my "self" is simply the part that loves and cares for them. The rest is malleable, changeable, and insignificant. I don't do well without those few deep connections such as this in my life; my life feels empty and vain at that point. Identity and authenticity? That which is consistent has a tendency to do what it's going to do and thus discover or define itself anyways, I don't need to mess with it too much...but balance is healthy, and understanding myself is important.

Thoughts on 9w1 accuracy? Help?

Click to expand...

Don't have anything against it, I think 9 is a quite good fit. See merging and accommodating tendencies with your environment, no reactivity for shit, focus on keeping balance, attachment triad stuff (attaching yourself to things perceived as "good"), awareness and adjusting of yourself with things/people. Yep.

FWIW Five is an intense cerebral type with a negativist streak, don't think one would talk about the way they deal with inner reality and problems the way you do. They tend to get intrigued and drawn to deconstructing and figuring out the weird and frightening aspects of themselves, go down the mental rabbit hole so to speak. Their social agreeableness is often rock bottom as well, which doesn't seem to be your case. You seem skilled enough in that area, quite, in fact.*


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Not to mention your talks about appearing on talk shows and being interviewed by hosts


I think that one was me though?
and if it wasn't clear from here I just like to talk about myself :tongue:

(but yeah, agree it's so)


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> I think that one was me though?
> and if it wasn't clear from here I just like to talk about myself :tongue:
> 
> (but yeah, agree it's so)


Yeah think that was you :laughing:
(think I mentioned some kind of talk show but it was in a sx-y context???)


(no time to respond now)


----------



## ElectricSlime

It was both of you.

And no, appearing in a talk show and defending your hubby is not a Sx context in the slightest, it’s still SO.


----------



## Dangerose

gotta say, don't think I really believe in Enneagram anymore (?), especially instincts, also core types

I mean it's like classifying people by what kind of alcoholic drink they are, it's not nothing but it's still :dry: and in a lot of cases it might even mean more to say that someone's red wine than that they're an 8 or whatever

kinda need to stop holding onto this system, just do it because I'm bored but...idk

(will still give type thoughts later though, lol)


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Don't we all :smug: I've learned with time that you reap what you sow, meaning that if you don't make the effort into maintaining friendships and acquaintances, or compromising, people do get fed up past a point. I pay more attention to that now, although I still tend to disappear into the shadows doing my own thing instead of getting involved.


Hi dad :tongue:



> Interesting. I don't take initiative for that stuff, people have to kick me in the ass or give me a convincing speech to get me moving to parties, bars or whatever lol. Think that could be relevant to your type in some way but not sure how.


Maybe sensor-ish? (although used to think it could be lower Se because I always expected something Se-ish to happen)
Well and also because I don't get to do it much so I crave it.
But I do love crowds and strangers and nighttime, never understood people who like to stay in or like would rather read a book than go to a party, tbh books for me are the last resort of all last resorts 
'Watch a movie' is a bit better (or used to be, no patience for movies at this point) but even then I thought "You can watch like five movies during the day AND go to a party afterwards"


(but as I said definitely feel like I'm becoming more introverted and even more picky with age and I hate my plans being destroyed even if they are 'watch youtube alone in my room' kind of plans, used to love my plans being ruined by better plans)

Why don't you like it?



> Why not ? I think the way you express your concerns seems filtered through a Sp/So glass, i.e* living in material security with prestigious company*.


edit: when did I say that? (I guess Trump thing sounded similar lol but that was just background thoughts for walking around the mall)
But why sx blindspot? Is it mostly because you see more sp and so?
Just not sure what I lack that non sx lasts have, in your opinion, don't even know how you define sx.



> Well I know for a fact that I'm in a Te/Fi valuing family aside from my youngest sister who is a textbook Alpha, and that tends to result in a certain repression of behavior and lack of positive reinforcement from their side.
> 
> Basically they get pissy when they receive Ti input and look at me like an alien when I try and spark Fe out of them. They, on the other hand, are always talking about boring productivity shit and shitting on my own aspirations. As such my usual social presence kinda fades away when I'm at home and I retreat into my lair, then they get surprised when interesting company comes home and I suddenly get outgoing.
> 
> It's the kind of story I've heard before in Socionics boards and fits with my own experience, I know a few people who seem to live in households that share their quadra for the most part, and they're "tighter".


My family is 99% Si/Ne, my dad is almost certainly Alpha, sometimes I consider Delta a bit but doesn't feel right at all, not sure about mom but I always spent most time with dad and grandma and they are both I think Alpha, we used to be a decent match, used to never spend time in my room when I was younger, now is a long story but don't think we had too many quadra issues aside from me being more Se (I know, I know, I'm not Se, using it informally) and I guess Fe, think he values Fe but has some trouble with F in general.

And at this point he is way too focused on Te for me though :frustrating:



> Come on now, you just talked not long ago about marrying Trump (or someone of similar position) and having him follow you around in stores and buy you shit. Not to mention your talks about appearing on talk shows and being interviewed by hosts


Not marrying, we were just friends :frustrating:


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> It was both of you.
> 
> And no, appearing in a talk show and* defending your hubby* is not a Sx context in the slightest, it’s still SO.


How do you manage to translate everything into this language? :laughing:

(and again I don't remember saying anything about being married to him)


Can't tell if I agree with your actual thoughts or not when you do that 
Curious why So?
My reasons for sx: intense, connection-y, intimate, people acting uncivilized, he was sexy, guess I thought me defending him was sexy, (using word sexy because my phone is overheating, no time for explanations), mostly because I was watching the show and I had to idk fit myself into it, think my thoughts were sx-ish compared to what most people think about while watching talk shows


----------



## Darkbloom

@Brains 
any thoughts? :kitteh:


----------



## Brains

Nissa Nissa said:


> gotta say, don't think I really believe in Enneagram anymore (?), especially instincts, also core types
> 
> I mean it's like classifying people by what kind of alcoholic drink they are, it's not nothing but it's still :dry: and in a lot of cases it might even mean more to say that someone's red wine than that they're an 8 or whatever
> 
> kinda need to stop holding onto this system, just do it because I'm bored but...idk
> 
> (will still give type thoughts later though, lol)


Enneagram isn't how reality organizes itself - the types aren't things that actually exist. We just call people things, like red wine. It's why I've taken to wording things "people we'd call Threes", and so on. The descriptions do fit existing people, but yea. Doing it for entertainment's fine, that's how it's been for me for ages.

The core styles work, and map out to temperament pretty well. Specific parts about the styles can be pretty horseshit, but also reasonably common outcomes of a certain kind of temperament. Instincts as the R&H branch separate typology and as type-specific subtypes are a hot mess, let alone the instinctual stack+subtype mutant garbage that infests typology forums and is primarily used to justify snowflakery.

It's why I was really interested in the Big 5 correlates earlier - it gives a clean, objective picture of how people we'd call a certain type actually are. Even if not taken as iron-clad rules, the nuances of the Big Five trait set let us call bullshit on cruft that's accumulated in the Enneagram literature over time.

@RGB 9w1 sounds like a decent fit, overall.




ElectricSlime said:


> Do you mean the threads created by the community of "am i Four or Five" ? Cause most of those peep don't know what they're talking about. They fail to mention the hoarding and power seeking nature of the Five, as well as how truly pathetic it actually means to need to integrate at Eight because otherwise you impact the world as much as a fly crashing into a fortress.


"Bu-but I _think about things_ and the things I think about are _deep_ so I'm a five :sad:"

:dry:



ElectricSlime said:


> FWIW Five is an intense cerebral type with a negativist streak, don't think one would talk about the way they deal with inner reality and problems the way you do. They tend to get intrigued and drawn to deconstructing and figuring out the weird and frightening aspects of themselves, go down the mental rabbit hole so to speak. Their social agreeableness is often rock bottom as well, which doesn't seem to be your case. You seem skilled enough in that area, quite, in fact.


A friend who's a 5 or a 6w5 said he kinda has a conveyor belt with emotional inputs that he looks at to process or discard. And yea, @RGB 's post doesn't look like low Agreeableness self-expression at all.



Vixey said:


> How do you manage to translate everything into this language? :laughing:
> 
> (and again I don't remember saying anything about being married to him)


Because poking fun at people is fun :kitteh:

Don't have very specific thoughts on enneatype, but ESFP seems like a good fit from what little I've seen. 7 core's probably what comes to mind first. Doesn't feel like it'd veer to 6w7, 8w9 feels too heavy, too little fuss for 2, at least 2w1. 



Jaune Valjaune said:


> 5w6 8w7 4w5 sx/sp


Jaune posted this in the vibe typing thread (love it for not just regurgitating someone's self-typing). The 4 fix and sx feel really weird. Anyone have opinions? :kitteh:


----------



## Darkbloom

To clarify, also curious about how other people interpreted it:

It wasn't about being on a talk show or defending him in front of people like "I'm defending my dear hubby in front of millions of people :fall:", was mostly about doing something to/for _him_, not even really defending him for him against social criticism or whatever, but like creating specific kind of thing between us, like remember there being something related to how only I can calm him down (wasn't the main thing I think, there was the opposite thing too though), I don't remember every detail, but it was maybe 1% about being on a talk show and 99% him being sexy when he's angry and our relationship dynamics.




Brains said:


> Don't have very specific thoughts on enneatype, but ESFP seems like a good fit from what little I've seen. 7 core's probably what comes to mind first. Doesn't feel like it'd veer to 6w7, 8w9 feels too heavy, too little fuss for 2, at least 2w1.


Was actually wondering about instincts, think you thanked a couple of Slime's posts so I thought you had an opinion, but maybe you just enjoy watching people poke fun at me 
You don't have to answer if you don't have an opinion, I already got more than I expected haha, think enneagram is the most difficult kind of feedback to give so I try not to ask for it but thank you for giving it 
(so surprised to see you I guess considered 8w9)
Curious about what "too little fuss" means?



> Jaune posted this in the vibe typing thread (love it for not just regurgitating someone's self-typing). The 4 fix and sx feel really weird. Anyone have opinions? :kitteh:


I'd say 3 fix and probably sp/so, and I tend to think of you as a 8w9. Not sure about head fix but I'll go with 5w6.
Can't see 4, like your approach to typology is very 8 with a 3 fix XD


----------



## mimesis

Brains said:


> Enneagram isn't how reality organizes itself - the types aren't things that actually exist. We just call people things, like red wine. It's why I've taken to wording things "people we'd call Threes", and so on. The descriptions do fit existing people, but yea. Doing it for entertainment's fine, that's how it's been for me for ages.


"Things" you refer to is a reification:



> Reification stands for the opposite: that we take phenomena for given, as they appear to us. It is often claimed, for example, that the concept of culture is a reification, since we have a tendency to think of "a culture" as a completed object, a "thing" we can "touch and feel", which all members of the culture share - rather than a complex aggregate of processes, which different people participate in, to a greater or lesser extent. When we reify, we do not see the details, because they are overshadowed by the whole. We think, e.g. of "Norway" as if it were one thing, while in reality it is a near-infinite agglomeration of people, projects, actions, expressions and objects, in constant movement and conflict, within a landscape which is neither homogeneous, stable or geographically bounded. When I say "I am a Norwegian", this is a reification, which hides the countless other things I also am.
> http://www.anthrobase.com/Dic/eng/def/reification.htm


----------



## Dangerose

travelling and only have time to be briefly annoying, @Brains do you have any input on my type? just curious, you tend to have interesting thoughts


----------



## Super Luigi

I might as well ask @Brains too


----------



## owlet

@The Penguin how did you arrive at your current typing and what kinds of things are causing you to doubt it (if you are)?


----------



## Super Luigi

owlet said:


> @The Penguin how did you arrive at your current typing and what kinds of things are causing you to doubt it (if you are)?


For my whole life, I felt different from everyone. Even though I tried, I never was able to fit in. In case I ever forgot, everyone reminded me that I was different. I was always the outcast. People knew my name but I never had more than five friends, and now I don't have any. I'm withdrawn, socially awkward, and I'm usually terrible at small talk. I can be pushy.

That's all I have for 4-5-8

I could be wrong about any of it -shrug-


----------



## Mr Castelo

The Penguin said:


> For my whole life, I felt different from everyone. Even though I tried, I never was able to fit in. In case I ever forgot, everyone reminded me that I was different. I was always the outcast. People knew my name but I never had more than five friends, and now I don't have any. I'm withdrawn, socially awkward, and I'm usually terrible at small talk. I can be pushy.
> 
> That's all I have for 4-5-8
> 
> I could be wrong about any of it -shrug-


It is most likely wrong, being an outcast is not enough to justify any typing.


----------



## Super Luigi

Mr Castelo said:


> It is most likely wrong, being an outcast is not enough to justify any typing.


I'm not trying to justify anything. They asked, I answered. It's as simple as that.


----------



## Mr Castelo

The Penguin said:


> I'm not trying to justify anything. They asked, I answered. It's as simple as that.


That was the reasoning you gave for you typing, all I'm saying is that your reasoning has a weak base (insufficient/irrelevant information), so it's likely that your conclusion is incorrect.


----------



## Super Luigi

Mr Castelo said:


> That was the reasoning you gave for you typing, all I'm saying is that your reasoning has a weak base (insufficient/irrelevant information), so it's likely that your conclusion is incorrect.


Weak, insufficient, irrelevant - that's up to the person asking the question, not you.


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> Ones can also go to Four, or Seven, and I have typed as Seven in the past.
> 
> No I never meant to put anyone else down to make myself look better. It's just that I would like others to hold themselves to the same standards that I do, not because I'm imposing it on them, but because they share my conviction for rightness. One and Two are both, in terms of Freudian Association, Superego types.
> 
> Yes, I would like to lead. The ideal position would include clear expectations for everybody involved, and for those expectations to be followed consistently and diligently. We would reform society, and ourselves in order to be fair with the reform we would like to see.
> 
> How would you describe a Social 1 approach to leadership?
> Would it be "this is the right example so shape up and do your part" ?
> 
> *Edit
> In the dream, no there wasn't much love. I was frustrated because all of them were just lounging around. None of them took the work seriously. They mocked me just because I did. I was frustrated because I had to be the one to step up and get them all to do their jobs. I shouldn't have to tell them. They should be doing that on their own.


Ok. The Delta quadra is strong here lol.

A big part of type One is repression of what’s bad in them (anger especially) and them being tortured by the rules of their inner critic (i.e superego). I haven’t seen you talk about those yet, but it may be relatable. They’re also very competency oriented, and strive towards a high level of rationality usually. They have issues with resentment due to the constant pressure of the high standards they put on themselves, and seeing others not give a shit and live as they please. I could see that mixing in with the underlying narcissistic wounding thing within you. That said a One mistyping at Seven is pretty weird for me since those I know would definitely benefit from being more Seven ish. Do you relate more to the gut triad or image triad ? That could be telling.

That sounds about right. Ones usually lead by setting an example, they’re generally much less personable than Twos. For that reason they tend to not be all that popular and mostly lead in the workplace and stuff like that. Jeanne d’Arc was supposedly a One, so like Sixes it seems they find their calling and use their skills optimally in crises where people turn towards them.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> Ok. The Delta quadra is strong here lol.
> 
> A big part of type One is repression of what’s bad in them (anger especially) and them being tortured by the rules of their inner critic (i.e superego). I haven’t seen you talk about those yet, but it may be relatable. They’re also very competency oriented, and strive towards a high level of rationality usually. They have issues with resentment due to the constant pressure of the high standards they put on themselves, and seeing others not give a shit and live as they please. I could see that mixing in with the underlying narcissistic wounding thing within you. That said a One mistyping at Seven is pretty weird for me since those I know would definitely benefit from being more Seven ish. Do you relate more to the gut triad or image triad ? That could be telling.
> 
> That sounds about right. Ones usually lead by setting an example, they’re generally much less personable than Twos. For that reason they tend to not be all that popular and mostly lead in the workplace and stuff like that. Jeanne d’Arc was supposedly a One, so like Sixes it seems they find their calling and use their skills optimally in crises where people turn towards them.


I do try to repress my anger, yes. No I haven't talked about it, but it's true. I do value competency. That's why I hesitate to do something when I don't quite understand it, plus I can be in shock. Yes, I strive to be rational, which is why it's hard for me to understand my feelings, but at times I can understand other people's feelings.

Delta quadra meaning types with Te/Fi and Ne/Si
- hmm, I'm considering three SJ types, including one from the alpha.

Well I'm generally more concerned about acting when I believe it's necessary, than I am about how it makes me look. It's frustrating when others remind me that my actions and decisions do affect my image, for better or worse, depending on what I decide to do. I want an image of somebody that's doing the right thing, and hopefully that earns me love. Perhaps that's the 2 wing being involved. I'm also more concerned with standards and boundaries than I am about how I'm seen. That doesn't mean I don't care about how I'm seen, but I believe the gut wins over the image in my case.


----------



## Dangerose

:frustrating: why don't hotels just make Internet that works :frustrating:

(shouldn't be complaining because it suddenly is but holy heavens I at least am just travelling for pleasure and don't technically need the Internet but there are many people who could be severely put out, it's madness)

anyways spent some horrible hours reading Tender is the Night (in general reading just makes me feel horrible and wanting to stab myself in the head and vaguely virtuous, idk if that's some type thing like anti-N or whatever, or just due to getting out of the habit, remember the pages just melting away when I was a kid, now I'm always peeking to see how many I have left and dividing it into clever ways so it feels like less)

Hate Fitzgerald so much, realized ironically it's the same reason I hate Hardy, wonder if it's kinda sp/so in both cases, wonder about so/sp for Hardy too but it's so impossible to care too, the boring, distant lives of paper-doll people who seem to have a world of trouble caring about anything, humanity totally lost in this cold self-reflection and preoccupation with things and money and social status that doesn't mean a thing, and even when it's the point it's such a boring boring boring point

(and Fitzgerald is worse because you think it's going to be interesting because it's all dressed up in salt-rose and topaz but it's just layers of gauze and there are supposed to be pressure points of character under it but there _aren't_, I don't believe anything, it's just gauze and sparkle in the shape of nothing)

not my official opinion but I just :frustrating:

Anyways that's what I was thinking about the other day when @ElectricSlime mentioned about Daisy being sp/so, that's so...I don't know, she's not sp/so, she's not (if she were anything I guess she would be) but she's just _shallow_ and nothing, that's all she is, only real thing about her personality is that she's shallow, don't really like Enneagram because I feel like it does away with...you're not just shallow or you don't just want something, it has to be part of this structure, I know that's not how it really is but I mean something different from what I'm saying, just stretch it a stretch further and you'll get it

(in case it comes off this way through distillation of whatever don't think of you as shallow @Vixey, don't agree with Daisy comparison)

And other things, lots of reasons I suddenly came to a boiling point about Enneagram and such, but...yeah? anyone get what I mean?


----------



## Dangerose

ugh @mistakenforstranger I've been trying to respond properly to your post for so long :frustrating: anyways thanks for writing it, really interesting, don't feel like I have anything brilliant to add



> Well, I can get very obsessive over things, like I see my life as being a series of obsessions and phases that I get into so ridiculously, like even Enneagram/personality theory has been something I've been into for way too long now, and should've moved on to other things at this point, but I keep coming back to it and wanting to learn more and more. So ridiculous. That could be my 5-wing too. Often feel my obsession takes on the quality of Gollum and his ring haha, like going into a cave away from the world to be with my obsessive interest, which I see as being sx for him, but I don't really obsess over people I want to be with, like it doesn't really extend to romance, so again, not sure why obsessions = sx?, but do know it's talked about in this way, but I'm always confused by it because I really am very obsessive.


hope people talk more about this (tell me if you want me to delete the quote)

Why do you want sx people to chill out? what bothers you? 

(annoying tone of question I realize, just ugh)

still not sure why you'd be that sp


----------



## Full_fathom_4

both daisy and nick
carefree, and sp/so.
but different types,
ask me how I know.


----------



## owlet

The Penguin said:


> I'll try.
> 
> Typical 2 descriptions make them sound like all they do is go around helping everybody as much as possible, they never get tired of it, they never feel like they're being imposed on, because they're responsible for others that should be responsible for themselves. They enjoy always meeting other people's needs and they don't really care about their own.
> 
> I help people when it's convenient, when somebody I care about is involved, when I have time, when I want to help them, or when I have to help them. I don't care about being helpful to everybody all the time. I'm more concerned about taking care of my own responsibilities first, and the people that I love when there's time or when it's necessary for me to help them.
> 
> 
> 3 - sure I would like to be successful but I don't want to compromise being good and upstanding
> 4 - it's not that I really want to be different, I just am and I can't help it, I've been called unique all my life
> 
> that's all I have, talking about 2 was easier for me


Thanks for going through them. The main thing seems to be the idea that type 2 is all about being endlessly caring without getting tired of it, but 2s generally will get tired of it - they do it partly because they genuinely want to care for people (perhaps their family, maybe their colleagues etc.) but they also feel that they're not worthy of love from those people unless they do those things. There's a big issue in setting boundaries for themselves and others, because some people in response will accept that's just how the 2 is and that they're happy to do stuff for them, which leads to the 2 getting exploited and feeling more and more resentful because they're not getting clear appreciation for their efforts. But often this is going on more subconsciously and the 2 sees it as 'I do nice things for people because I care, but they don't appreciate me or give anything in return' - which is what I saw in your post.


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> (and Fitzgerald is worse because you think it's going to be interesting because it's all dressed up in salt-rose and topaz but it's just layers of gauze and there are supposed to be pressure points of character under it but there _aren't_, I don't believe anything, it's just gauze and sparkle in the shape of nothing)


Fitzgerald is cynical satire - the characters are supposed to be shallow.


----------



## Dangerose

@The Penguin going to look at your posts more carefully tomorrow, just to say that off the bat you don't strike me as a 2, as you don't strike me as particularly a power type or need-based which 2 is (2 kinda like 7 is based on this deprivation but tends to be more...caustic? or round about it than 7 which is more flitty, 7 grazes and 2 hunts)

but do you relate to those things? would you see yourself as a rejection type, feeling a need to have a corner of the market (in 2s case on love?)

(sorry if my thoughts don't make sense, completely exhausted)


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Fitzgerald is cynical satire - the characters are supposed to be shallow.


I know, and I hate it, being cynical or satirical doesn't make something any more endearing to me :tongue:

(that's also what I mean about him and Hardy, Hardy is also all cynical and satirical but also about things no one should care about)

edit: @Full_fathom_4 mmmm....how do you know?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Cynical satire is love, cynical satire is life!


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> I know, and I hate it, being cynical or satirical doesn't make something any more endearing to me :tongue:
> 
> (that's also what I mean about him and Hardy, Hardy is also all cynical and satirical but also about things no one should care about)


Going to just say fair enough and not get into a literature debate in the wrong thread for it.


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> Cynical satire is love, cynical satire is life!


Thank goodness for you.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> Going to just say fair enough and not get into a literature debate in the wrong thread for it.


why do you people care so much what thread things happen in? 

I said it wasn't my official opinion, this isn't my 'literary opinion', just hate that things are supposed to be worthwhile because they're from a distance and making a statement, I'm not intellectual enough...things should make a statement by being themselves


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> why do you people care so much what thread things happen in?
> 
> I said it wasn't my official opinion, this isn't my 'literary opinion', just hate that things are supposed to be worthwhile because they're from a distance and making a statement, I'm not intellectual enough...things should make a statement by being themselves


Shut up you heathen !

Begone at once from this holy ground.

...

Aww shit we’re not on my thread anymore are we :sad:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Cynical satire is love, cynical satire is life!


main reason you'd be a 6 rather than a 3 :laughing:

(tongue in cheek, I've expressed myself very badly on everything on this topic so far ahaha)

edit: but it genuinely all does feel like head typey things


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> main reason you'd be a 6 rather than a 3 :laughing:
> 
> (tongue in cheek, I've expressed myself very badly on everything on this topic so far ahaha)
> 
> edit: but it genuinely all does feel like head typey things


I guess I just like mocking things, like Byron and Wilde. And Voltaire. 

Fuck it, I’m just a dashing fellow all around~


----------



## Super Luigi

Nissa Nissa said:


> @The Penguin going to look at your posts more carefully tomorrow, just to say that off the bat you don't strike me as a 2, as you don't strike me as particularly a power type or need-based which 2 is (2 kinda like 7 is based on this deprivation but tends to be more...caustic? or round about it than 7 which is more flitty, 7 grazes and 2 hunts)
> 
> but do you relate to those things? would you see yourself as a rejection type, feeling a need to have a corner of the market (in 2s case on love?)
> 
> (sorry if my thoughts don't make sense, completely exhausted)


Why yes, the more we talk about it, I think I'm 1w2.

I don't think I'm needy. I don't really hunt for love lol, I just try to be a good example of what's right, and hope people love me for that. For years, I've been rejected, but that only bothers me when it's by something that I need, or someone that I respect for being a good example of proper behavior.

I don't feel a need to have my own place in the "love market" which is the first time I've ever heard it put that way. I do feel a need for justice. Other people have justice and I shouldn't be left out, that is.

I don't quite understand your post, but I don't know what to ask for a better understanding. I tried to answer it to the best of my ability.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa yeah I get what you mean I think, can't find a better hobby though so :laughing:
(and yeah I get it, don't really understand Daisy comparison  I just genuinely don't think I am like that, never thought anyone would think I am)
(well never read the book so I could be missing something?  )



goodnight :sleepytime:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Shut up you heathen !
> 
> Begone at once from this holy ground.
> 
> ...
> 
> Aww shit we’re not on my thread anymore are we :sad:












(and whose fault is that?)


----------



## Brains

The Penguin said:


> I'm sorry for losing my temper and being rude to you. No matter what's been said to me, I shouldn't do that. It's wrong and I hope to be forgiven.
> 
> I do take back what I said that nothing good was said. We can at least eliminate any ID types from my Enneagram. That coincides with what @owlet said, and I could be either 2w3 or 1w2. I have looked at descriptions of 2w1 but I don't think that's me. Naturally, when saying that I might be 2 or 1, an easy conclusion to make is that I'm 2w1, but that's not the case.
> 
> Edit - @Mr Castelo I'm sorry for my rude and angry behavior towards you, too. Please accept my apology.


Trying to actively learn is the best apology you can give to a teacher, I think, and you've been doing good thus far ^^

I did snicker earlier when it looked like you just wanted your typing to be affirmed and told off Castelo and ElectricSlime but asked me. If we're talking mistakes, that's nuclear bomb sized :crazy:



The Penguin said:


> 3 - sure I would like to be successful but I don't want to compromise being good and upstanding


Threes are pretty often good, upstanding and just plain polished people. 



ElectricSlime said:


> Ok. The Delta quadra is strong here lol.
> 
> A big part of type One is repression of what’s bad in them (anger especially) and them being tortured by the rules of their inner critic (i.e superego). I haven’t seen you talk about those yet, but it may be relatable. They’re also very competency oriented, and strive towards a high level of rationality usually. They have issues with resentment due to the constant pressure of the high standards they put on themselves, and seeing others not give a shit and live as they please. I could see that mixing in with the underlying narcissistic wounding thing within you. That said a One mistyping at Seven is pretty weird for me since those I know would definitely benefit from being more Seven ish. Do you relate more to the gut triad or image triad ? That could be telling.
> 
> That sounds about right. Ones usually lead by setting an example, they’re generally much less personable than Twos. For that reason they tend to not be all that popular and mostly lead in the workplace and stuff like that. Jeanne d’Arc was supposedly a One, so like Sixes it seems they find their calling and use their skills optimally in crises where people turn towards them.


One additional tidbit to this: One-ish sense of mastery and perfection has the tone of avoiding fault. Sixes, to avoid mistakes. (difference - ones are high Conscientiousness types with some Neuroticism, they proactively want to make things right. Sixes are high on Neuroticism, their mastery and perfectionism has more to do with avoiding disaster).

One and Seven are polar opposites psychometrically when it comes to Conscientiousness - self-control, "making yourself do what you want to do", capability to stop, etc.




The Penguin said:


> Delta quadra meaning types with Te/Fi and Ne/Si
> - hmm, I'm considering three SJ types, including one from the alpha.


I'd definitely agree with some flavour of SJ, probably ISTJ or ISFJ, your arguing style just feels Si lead with some Tx down there. 





Nissa Nissa said:


> anyways spent some horrible hours reading Tender is the Night (in general reading just makes me feel horrible and wanting to stab myself in the head and vaguely virtuous, idk if that's some type thing like anti-N or whatever, or just due to getting out of the habit, remember the pages just melting away when I was a kid, now I'm always peeking to see how many I have left and dividing it into clever ways so it feels like less)


Struggled for years with wondering where my love of reading went, then I realized I hadn't read *fiction* in ages. Started ordering non-fiction and now I have a steadily expanding bookshelf that actually gets read.


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> why do you people care so much what thread things happen in?


My username is owlet and not 'you people'.



> I said it wasn't my official opinion, this isn't my 'literary opinion', just hate that things are supposed to be worthwhile because they're from a distance and making a statement, I'm not intellectual enough...things should make a statement by being themselves


I'm getting flashbacks to my English Lit class where everyone hated TGG apart from me and one other person.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> ugh @*mistakenforstranger* I've been trying to respond properly to your post for so long :frustrating: anyways thanks for writing it, really interesting, don't feel like I have anything brilliant to add
> 
> 
> 
> hope people talk more about this (tell me if you want me to delete the quote)


Yeah, that part is fine to leave quoted. Does it seem sx to you? I mean, I am very obsessive in general, but thought that was more due to Ni and/or Ne-Ignoring.


> Why do you want sx people to chill out? what bothers you?


Well, like I was saying before, emotional states can easily be transferred to me from another person, so that some of them are quite over-the-top emotionally, and it affects me a lot. I also tend to be a lot more level-headed and rational too, whereas they're just like not thinking anything through in the moment, but like I said they're probably 7w6 and 6w7, and also extroverts and possibly have personality disorders too, so I think that affects it a lot too. I would say those people are a lot more intense than I am, and try to keep my distance from them because I can only take so much. I am pretty calm (although, not so much internally), which isn't to say I haven't had my outbursts before either and when they happen they can be intense, but it doesn't happen very often. 



> (annoying tone of question I realize, just ugh)
> 
> still not sure why you'd be that sp


Yeah, I'm not sure why either, but guess I could see it too, if I explained my lack of practicality and general lack of sp due to being an Intuitive with bad Si, but I'm not so sure. 

Appreciate the question.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> I guess I just like mocking things, like Byron and Wilde. And Voltaire.
> 
> Fuck it, I’m just a dashing fellow all around~


:encouragement:

(hopefully it's the patronizing smiley with the cat being patted on the head, smileys won't load lol)



owlet said:


> My username is owlet and not 'you people'.


it's not just you and standard English has no plural you :sad:



> I'm getting flashbacks to my English Lit class where everyone hated TGG apart from me and one other person.


Ha, I loved it at first until I realized it was a TRICK and it was about money and boring grown-up things and not love
(still like it btw though)



mistakenforstranger said:


> Well, like I was saying before, emotional states can easily be transferred to me from another person, so that some of them are quite over-the-top emotionally, and it affects me a lot. I also tend to be a lot more level-headed and rational too, whereas they're just like not thinking anything through in the moment, but like I said they're probably 7w6 and 6w7, and also extroverts and possibly have personality disorders too, so I think that affects it a lot too. I would say those people are a lot more intense than I am, and try to keep my distance from them because* I can only take so much.* I am pretty calm (although, not so much internally), which isn't to say I haven't had my outbursts before either and when they happen they can be intense, but it doesn't happen very often.


ok, interesting 
can you possibly expand on what that means 'can only take so much'...before? do you like to remain in a neutral mood or do you just not want your mood affected by someone else? or is it their specific focus that bothers you?

___________

(sad everyone's posting and all when I have to sleep :moon


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> :encouragement:
> 
> ok, interesting
> can you possibly expand on what that means 'can only take so much'...before? do you like to remain in a neutral mood or do you just not want your mood affected by someone else? or is it their specific focus that bothers you?
> 
> ___________
> 
> (sad everyone's posting and all when I have to sleep :moon


Well, I guess it's because they're like Energizer Bunnies, who keep going and going and going, and I get worn out from them. Oh, no I like my mood being affected by others, but have to be careful what I let in, because it can really affect me. I also like intensifying feelings in general (probably just a 4 thing, but not sure if intensifying is the right word, because of sx), but I have to be emotionally connected to it, like if someone is just ranting/raving at me about their problems, which is usually how it can be with these people, I'm like, :bored:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> (and whose fault is that?)


I like the fact that I was setting you up for that gif and you delivered :smug:

And yeah, going easy mode on you guys otherwise it’s not fun *whistles*


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Full_fathom_4 said:


> both daisy and nick
> carefree, and sp/so.
> but different types,
> ask me how I know.


Think Nick is sp, Daisy is so, and Gatsby is sx. A Golden Trio, or so I like to believe.

What's his face is probably so/sp? Daisy's husband. I haven't been following the posts so far, so don't know if this was mentioned.


----------



## Full_fathom_4

I like that.


----------



## ElectricSlime

All things considered, I am pretty narcissistic for a Six :scratch:


----------



## owlet

Nissa Nissa said:


> it's not just you and standard English has no plural you :sad:
> 
> Ha, I loved it at first until I realized it was a TRICK and it was about money and boring grown-up things and not love
> (still like it btw though)


I'm not keen on being addressed as a general group.
The Beautiful and the Damned had arguably more (cynical) romance elements in it, but none of Fitzgerald's books are happy.



ElectricSlime said:


> All things considered, I am pretty narcissistic for a Six :scratch:


I'm sure all types can be narcissistic (unless you were joking in which case you're disintegrating to 3).


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> I'm sure all types can be narcissistic (unless you were joking in which case you're disintegrating to 3).


C’mon I wasn’t talking about being an actual narcissist but exhibiting superficial narcissistic traits (i.e charm, being a one-upper, liking attention, having a periodic grandiose view of self and thinking you’re the shit, looking at myself in the mirror for too long sometimes).

You know, the average stuff


----------



## Super Luigi

Brains said:


> I'd definitely agree with some flavour of SJ, probably ISTJ or ISFJ, your arguing style just feels Si lead with some Tx down there.


I don't think I'm ISFJ.


----------



## Dangerose

owlet said:


> I'm not keen on being addressed as a general group.
> The Beautiful and the Damned had arguably more (cynical) romance elements in it, but none of Fitzgerald's books are happy.


thought it sounded more playful and less like I specifically had a problem with you? 
(think 'you people' has a jocular sound in American English)
well, I haven't read it - not looking for happy though, not sure why people often think that when I talk about books  (I think cause I just sound naive but yeah)


----------



## Darkbloom

I thought that almost everyone thought of me as sx/so here, or maybe so/sx 
(not that I personally think I am)


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> I thought that almost everyone thought of me as sx/so here, or maybe so/sx
> (not that I personally think I am)


strange to me if you have higher sx than me

(I mean, I think of myself as like the most sx person alive lol in my head so not that strange :tongue: but in another sense you come off wayy more sx than me, your collages for instance, idk)


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> strange to me if you have higher sx than me
> 
> (I mean, I think of myself as like the most sx person alive lol in my head so not that strange :tongue: but in another sense you come off wayy more sx than me, your collages for instance, idk)


(did you mean to say lower?  )


Maybe it's Se?
Feel like Se types automatically look more sx, like often assume Se dom so/sx or something people are sx first even if they show no actual sx and I think I rarely type Si/Ne as sx first even though they could be because they come across as so...idk indirect I guess?
(NJs can also be indirect but it's different)
edit: Even sx last people with Se can come across as so 'sexual' to me yet I know they most likely don't have high sx, can be confusing


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> (did you mean to say lower?  )
> 
> 
> Maybe it's Se?
> Feel like Se types automatically look more sx, like often assume Se dom so/sx or something people are sx first even if they show no actual sx and I think I rarely type Si/Ne as sx first even though they could be because they come across as so...idk indirect I guess?
> (NJs can also be indirect but it's different)


Yes, I did, but it took me unbelievably long time to figure out what you meant, so bad at those things

yeah...I guess?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Vixey said:


> @*Nissa Nissa* yeah I get what you mean I think, can't find a better hobby though so :laughing:
> (and yeah I get it, don't really understand Daisy comparison  I just genuinely don't think I am like that, never thought anyone would think I am)
> (well never read the book so I could be missing something?  )
> 
> 
> 
> goodnight :sleepytime:


Hmm, maybe because she's ESFP 2w3? Actually, not really sure of her type, as it's been a while since I've read it, but think it's around that area being ESFP, or she's 3w2, and also Social. I think The Great Gatsby is beautifully written, but also pretty overrated too lol.

I don't know, but I get like a Marilyn Monore vibe from you haha. :cupcake: I don't really know much about her, or if you would even agree with that, but think she might be a ESFP 2w3 sx/so (or that's her image)? I was watching some interview with Laurence Olivier, and he was saying how she was always late, hours even, for every film shoot when they were in a movie together. Not saying this is relevant to you, but just remembering that little tidbit.

Though, usually see her typed differently: http://**************.blogspot.com/2015/05/iei-intuitive-ethical-integrator.html

I've never seen her in any movie, and like only know of this image where she's obviously reading the Molly chapter, because that's basically "her", but could be completely wrong about her personality type, do think 2w3 sx/so seems like a good fit, but I see she's usually typed as a 6 :shocked:...looks way more image-triad/2 to me on first glance:


* *















I mean, not saying you should type yourself based on any of this.



Nissa Nissa said:


> strange to me if you have higher sx than me
> 
> (I mean, *I think of myself as like the most sx person alive lol in my head* so not that strange :tongue: but in another sense you come off wayy more sx than me, your collages for instance, idk)


Haha, how do you mean when you say that?



Vixey said:


> (did you mean to say lower?  )
> 
> 
> Maybe it's Se?
> Feel like Se types automatically look more sx, like often assume Se dom so/sx or something people are sx first even if they show no actual sx and I think I rarely type Si/Ne as sx first even though they could be because they come across as so...idk indirect I guess?
> (NJs can also be indirect but it's different)
> edit: Even sx last people with Se can come across as so 'sexual' to me yet I know they most likely don't have high sx, can be confusing


I agree.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> I don't know, but I get like a Marilyn Monore vibe from you haha. :cupcake: I don't really know much about her, or if you would even agree with that, but think she might be a ESFP 2w3 sx/so (or that's her image)? I was watching some interview with Laurence Olivier, and he was saying how she was always late, hours even, for every film shoot when they were in a movie together. Not saying this is relevant to you, but just remembering that little tidbit.
> 
> I've never seen her in any movie, and like only know of this image where she's obviously reading the Molly chapter, because that's basically "her", but could be completely wrong about her personality type, do think 2w3 sx/so seems like a good fit, but I see she's usually typed as a 6 :shocked:...looks way more image-triad/2 to me on first glance:
> 
> 
> * *


Ha! interesting

don't really 'get' Marilyn Monroe but I never understood why 6 for her, think it's supposed to be about the strength/beauty thing? but seems far more imagey



> Haha, how do you mean when you say that?
> I agree.


not sure how to put it :frustrating: I mean it's not even that I think I'm actually sx exactly in Enneagram but I still just think of myself as sx, like it's hard not to look at those three things and think 'well obviously I must be sexual', because I'm like...the word sexual just feels like it belongs to me lol, I'm...Morgan le Fay, probably just 2ish things :/ 

was talking to this guy who was really into astrology and made him guess my type, only thing he said from the start was that I was definitely a fire type, asked why several times, also after he'd known me for a while, said that I was extremely fiery, like dramatic and...fiery, came at everything with a lot of energy (also that I was pretty aggressive, finally gave examples and we sorta corrected it to defensive though), was really surprised to hear that though because that _is_ how I think of myself on a base level, just fiery, sexual, whatever, that's what I would have expected someone to say about me many years ago, but especially on this website I feel like people now see me as very different from that, not sure what the difference is or if people are just categorizing really differently

(but like my mother for example would have agreed with everything he said about me, think my best friend would have too) 

(not related but he also surprisingly said I came off as having a lot of dominant energy, that was one of the first things he was looking for in guessing my type, NOT how I see myself though, but was trying to further an argument that I was pretty submissive and shy and wilting actually, he found that amusing, brought up how I was with my boss who I was very scared of and he brought up a lot of examples of when I was arguing with him, said basically that it was why I didn't get along so well with the boss as he did, since he just went along with everything, thought it was worth bringing up for type things, hadn't really thought about it but I think I do come off more aggressive than many other people and more than I realize if I'm telling stories about myself either)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Meh. Most people would say I’m Aquarius.

The people closest to me would say I’m Scorpio.

I’m born Pisces.

Anyway, it’s bullshit.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Meh. Most people would say I’m Aquarius.
> 
> The people closest to me would say I’m Scorpio.
> 
> I’m born Pisces.
> 
> Anyway, it’s bullshit.


Don't think she was talking about astrology 



(anyway, I'm Gemini, don't know what anyone would say about it)


@mistakenforstranger thanks, interesting thoughts :cupcake:
Love how everyone sees me as an entirely different person in the same thread :laughing:
Can't respond atm, just wanted to acknowledge your post, my phone keeps overheating, took me 10 minutes to write this :frustrating:
edit: Oh, looks like Marilyn's Gemini too


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> Don't think she was talking about astrology
> 
> 
> 
> (anyway, I'm Gemini, don't know what anyone would say about it)
> 
> 
> @mistakenforstranger thanks, interesting thoughts :cupcake:
> Love how everyone sees me as an entirely different person in the same thread :laughing:
> Can't respond atm, just wanted to acknowledge your post, my phone keeps overheating, took me 10 minutes to write this :frustrating:
> edit: Oh, looks like Marilyn's Gemini too


She was. I’m saying that people’s perspective will differ and aren’t necessarily indicative. Even in astrology there’s a concept about the face you show to the world being your ascendant type.

Though in the end it’s not real.


----------



## Dangerose

@ElectricSlime I mean I was technically talking about astrology (which I don't believe in, usually at least  though it can be fun) but it was just the context for that guy giving his view on my personality, and the 'point' was just that the way he described me was similar to a way I tend to think of myself, similar to the reasons I tend to think of myself as sx on a gut(?) level, also just find it interesting how people would describe me

(probably would have guessed Scorpio for you, Vixey maybe Virgo, don't know all the signs)

I'm a Leo which I have always enjoyed 










edit: but I'm not saying I'm sx actually


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> Vixey maybe Virgo


How come? 

(don't know enough about any of them to guess anyone's  )


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> How come?
> 
> (don't know enough about any of them to guess anyone's  )


Honestly I don't know that much either, forget about a lot of the signs and kinda just go off of my own conceptions

But you seem like a human thing I think (vs lion or centaur or something) and...looked up personality descriptors and it sounds nothing like you:



> Virgos are always paying attention to the smallest details and their deep sense of humanity makes them one of the most careful signs of the zodiac. Their methodical approach to life ensures that nothing is left to chance, and although they are often tender, their heart might be closed for the outer world. This is a sign often misunderstood, not because they lack the ability to express, but because they won’t accept their feelings as valid, true, or even relevant when opposed to reason. The symbolism behind the name speaks well of their nature, born with a feeling they are experiencing everything for the first time.


in my mind it was feminine and sorta SJish but idk not sx-last sign? but think I was wrong haha


----------



## Dangerose

(hate traveling)


----------



## Brains

Nissa Nissa said:


> (don't post quote because this is going to sound really pathetic)


Is this an invitation? :kitteh:


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> Hmm, maybe because she's ESFP 2w3? Actually, not really sure of her type, as it's been a while since I've read it, but think it's around that area being ESFP, or she's 3w2, and also Social. I think The Great Gatsby is beautifully written, but also pretty overrated too lol.


I only watched the movie but I can hardly even remember it, I assumed she was a 2w3/3w2 kind of character but saw her typed as 6w7!
And yeah I mean I kinda get the comparison but not at all in real ways if that makes sense, like I'm her if I have to be someone from that story because idk ESFP (I mean I don't know if I'm an ESFP but you get what I mean) and someone was in love with her lol 
Other than that I'm nothing like her


Btw you appeared in my dream!
Wish I could remember more, I just know that you climbed some sort of tower for whatever reason (think you got mad at someone?) and I had to make you come back/jump. My mom was in a treehouse near the tower. Now I'm trying to figure out if you were her husband  (think her real husband was there too but I think I just merged the two of you together at some point)
And this is so weird, think you were trying to change your PerC username, and you changed it into something like 'changemyusername' or something, don't understand why but that's what happened.



> I don't know, but I get like a Marilyn Monore vibe from you haha. :cupcake: I don't really know much about her, or if you would even agree with that, but think she might be a ESFP 2w3 sx/so (or that's her image)? I was watching some interview with Laurence Olivier, and he was saying how she was always late, hours even, for every film shoot when they were in a movie together. Not saying this is relevant to you, but just remembering that little tidbit.
> 
> Though, usually see her typed differently: http://**************.blogspot.com/2015/05/iei-intuitive-ethical-integrator.html
> 
> I've never seen her in any movie, and like only know of this image where she's obviously reading the Molly chapter, because that's basically "her", but could be completely wrong about her personality type, do think 2w3 sx/so seems like a good fit, but I see she's usually typed as a 6 :shocked:...looks way more image-triad/2 to me on first glance:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, not saying you should type yourself based on any of this.


Yeah she looks more image triad to me too, I guess the thing people say as argument against image type is how she's not natural enough with image or something like that, I know people often emphasize her fearfulness and desire for security and such, don't know enough about her to know but think she was going for 2w3-ish and maybe 'sp 2'(?) image? (I mean I guess obviously sx-y too but I guess I expect sx 2 image to be different)

Never watched a movie with her, used to not really like her, remember having a conversation with Nissa and I think Persephone soul/beautiful confusion about how I don't really get her. But now I like her much more for some reason, think it's because of We Heart It 
(I guess the most popular photos of her are more bland than less popular ones?)
Often feel tempted to use her in collages but I try not to because I'm not a blonde 
(ignore blondness of my avatar haha)


Anyway, thanks, interesting to hear :cupcake:
Kinda surprising but can kinda see it, and well there's this 12 type enneagram thing (that's not enneagram at all, think it was discussed in Fairy Tales a very long time ago) and I always relate to her type.

I'm almost never late though 
(but when I am it's usually the worst possible time to be late, but it happens so rarely)



Nissa Nissa said:


> Honestly I don't know that much either, forget about a lot of the signs and kinda just go off of my own conceptions
> 
> But you seem like a human thing I think (vs lion or centaur or something) and...looked up personality descriptors and it sounds nothing like you:
> 
> 
> 
> in my mind it was feminine and sorta SJish but idk not sx-last sign? but think I was wrong haha


Yeah like Capricorn and Aries are the same thing to me and Taurus kinda.

And yeah human thing makes sense I think
And yeah sounds almost like the opposite of me))
I'd also expect it to be more feminine and less STJ-ish and sx last.


----------



## Dangerose

Brains said:


> Is this an invitation? :kitteh:


when I saw this on my post quotes page I was so irritated lol, thanks for it just being that one sentence))


----------



## Brains

Nissa Nissa said:


> (don't post quote because this is going to sound really pathetic)
> 
> The premise of this post is: maybe this is 6ish?
> 
> Talking about the astrology guy reminded me, think I regret leaving (the place where I knew him) so soon, freaked out for a number of reasons which on cooler reflection were really stupid*, was finally starting to enjoy it there and that guy was really fun, having him around was like having a person, most enjoyably if I said 'I'm bored talk to me' he would actually do it which I thought never happened with humans


:skeleton:

(trolling is fun)


----------



## Dangerose

Brains said:


> :skeleton:
> 
> (trolling is fun)


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Btw you appeared in my dream!
> Wish I could remember more, I just know that you climbed some sort of tower for whatever reason (think you got mad at someone?) and I had to make you come back/jump. My mom was in a treehouse near the tower. Now I'm trying to figure out if you were her husband  (think her real husband was there too but I think I just merged the two of you together at some point)
> And this is so weird, think you were trying to change your PerC username, and you changed it into something like 'changemyusername' or something, don't understand why but that's what happened.


literally unrelated to everything, but I had a dream that involved this annoying but adorable floppy little dog who was really obsessed with the song 'Footloose' and was basically dancing happily to the song everywhere, it was so happy but so annoying when running around with its favourite song, anyways at some point it went out on the road and everyone was worried and didn't know how to get it to come back, one guy was finally like, 'oh I know what to do to bring it back' and he shouted out 'Footloose' in a songy way, the dog was so upset at hearing the song in this mocking manner that it collapsed, literally as if it was actually hit by a car

wasn't actually dead, stood up and slowly was shaking out the injury the collapse had done to it, but was really sad and low on energy, have very clear image of the incredibly dejected look on that dog's face as it was recovering, think the song was ruined for it forever

(that's been sticking in my mind all day)


----------



## Full_fathom_4

_(that's been sticking in my mind all day)
The Queen of Hearts still making tarts 
and I not making hay_


----------



## Dangerose

Full_fathom_4 said:


> _(that's been sticking in my mind all day)
> The Queen of Hearts still making tarts
> and I not making hay_


rings a bell


----------



## Darkbloom

edit: managed to arrive home on time but still :frustrating:
(posted in the wrong thread)


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> No prob!
> 
> Yeah, definitely not Four lol.


I figured.



> That's actually interesting to me, I monitor my interactions similarly to you and share your chameleon-like behavior. The difference is that I agonize over this tendency of mine and don't devalue my personal sense of self, I actually seek it. I'm definitely more comfortable interacting from the distance of a mask rather than explicitly expressing my conceptualized "identity". Anyway, cool.


I'm interested in understanding this better. Elaborate please?
Any examples?



> Also, in the bolded, are you talking about putting into words deep feelings in the context of a face to face interaction or about plainly expression your emotional state (happy, sly, sullen, etc) through your behavior/face ?


Probably just this. IDK. I've struggled to answer this question even after introspection / reflection.








(Credit Source)



> Do you mean the threads created by the community of "am i Four or Five" ? Cause most of those peep don't know what they're talking about. They fail to mention the hoarding and power seeking nature of the Five, as well as how truly pathetic it actually means to need to integrate at Eight because otherwise you impact the world as much as a fly crashing into a fortress.


Hahaha. I tend to stick to more pure / authentic resources as much as possible to avoid confusion.
Here's what I used



> Hmmm, I'm thinking you're out of touch with your Triad Center, whatever it is.
> 
> In any case, you remind me of a girl I once knew who was similar. Somewhat clueless and avoidant about her own deeper feelings, but quick to close down if she felt pushed into figuring it out. She might have been a Nine...


Yeah, that does sound like me. But you can't escape that which pursues you from within.

@*Literally Ginger* what do you think? Sound familiar?



> And my god, can't imagine myself not wanting to feel anything. Nothing worse than emptiness and apathy.


Well..understandable. I didn't intend to convey that I would want to be apathetic, but rather, that would prefer it over the opposite extreme: turbulent. Balance is of course the ideal.



> Don't have anything against it, I think 9 is a quite good fit. See merging and accommodating tendencies with your environment, no reactivity for shit, focus on keeping balance, attachment triad stuff (attaching yourself to things perceived as "good"), awareness and adjusting of yourself with things/people. Yep.


Lol...cool. Thanks. Someone that knows me well agreed with it rather eagerly, no one here has disputed, it resonates with me...I'll go with it.



> FWIW Five is an intense cerebral type with a negativist streak, don't think one would talk about the way they deal with inner reality and problems the way you do. They tend to get intrigued and drawn to deconstructing and figuring out the weird and frightening aspects of themselves, go down the mental rabbit hole so to speak. Their social agreeableness is often rock bottom as well, which doesn't seem to be your case. You seem skilled enough in that area, quite, in fact.


Okay...thanks.


----------



## Literally Gone

RGB said:


> I figured.
> 
> 
> I'm interested in understanding this better. Elaborate please?
> Any examples?
> 
> 
> Probably just this. IDK. I've struggled to answer this question even after introspection / reflection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Credit Source)
> 
> 
> Hahaha. I tend to stick to more pure / authentic resources as much as possible to avoid confusion.
> Here's what I used
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that does sound like me. But you can't escape that which pursues you from within.
> 
> @*Literally Ginger* what do you think? Sound familiar?
> 
> 
> Well..understandable. I didn't intend to convey that I would want to be apathetic, but rather, that would prefer it over the opposite extreme: turbulent. Balance is of course the ideal.
> 
> 
> Lol...cool. Thanks. Someone that knows me well agreed with it rather eagerly, no one here has disputed, it resonates with me...I'll go with it.
> 
> 
> Okay...thanks.


oh yes, that part is definitely you...


----------



## mp2




----------



## BroNerd

I’m actually wondering if I could have a 1 fix (1w9). I have a strong perfectionistic streak. I’m hard on myself when things don’t go how I think they should go. However, wondering how much of that also has to do with me being a 3 - a desire to excel. Or even just having a 7-fix which gives me that connection to 1 once in a while but not exactly my modus operandi. 

People tend to think I vibe 379 rather than 371 but I have a fixation on avoiding failure. I have a hard time getting over screwups. I think I’m harder on myself than anyone else is on me. I set high expectations for myself and set out to achieve whatever I set my mind.


----------



## Lunacik

RGB said:


> When I'm having a bad day I ask a certain ENTP to make me laugh instead of delving into my emotions like I (think? if not mistaken?) a 4 would.


*INFP, come to find out. And I do sometimes just spill...he's a good listener. I just have a thing about correcting inaccuracies, it bothers me if I don't.


----------



## Brains

BroNerd said:


> I’m actually wondering if I could have a 1 fix (1w9). I have a strong perfectionistic streak. I’m hard on myself when things don’t go how I think they should go. However, wondering how much of that also has to do with me being a 3 - a desire to excel. Or even just having a 7-fix which gives me that connection to 1 once in a while but not exactly my modus operandi.
> 
> People tend to think I vibe 379 rather than 371 but I have a fixation on avoiding failure. I have a hard time getting over screwups. I think I’m harder on myself than anyone else is on me. I set high expectations for myself and set out to achieve whatever I set my mind.


Don't overthink it with the fixes (re: 7 fix connection to 1), you'll just end up confusing yourself 

I mean, presuming 3 is correct, that's plenty enough self-criticism right there. Agreed that you vibe more 9 than 1, but meh.



RGB said:


> *INFP, come to find out. And I do sometimes just spill...he's a good listener. I just have a thing about correcting inaccuracies, it bothers me if I don't.


Good habit is good ^^



mp2 said:


> deleted ramble


Hard to buy 5.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> @ElectricSlime but why wouldn't that apply to Enneagram as well, why aren't there just more 4s and 5s on here than in the general populace?
> 
> I agree many people are on here looking for answers in the wrong place, and probably want to see their self-image reflected but...I don't see it as a rash of people doing so, I mean most people do various things to reinforce their self-image, I don't know if humans can even really distinguish that well between ideals and realities, especially when it comes to one's own self, don't think the problem is particularly concentrated on mistyped 4s and 5s (I mean, Enneagram is _about_ our failures, don't get why these types would seem like a badge of honour, if you have those failures and coping mechanisms you have those failures and coping mechanisms)
> 
> And I do agree many intellectuals aren't head types, but it helps, 2 is supposed to be the least, bet 8 would be as well if it didn't have the line to 5, think plenty of 9s are also, don't think it's exclusively related to head types though, no
> 
> (perc keeps signing me out for no reason which is terrible because my Internet takes forever to load the page, typed really quickly so it wouldn't log out as I was writing, hence not great phrasing, hope it posts)


I agree that it’s normal to find more Fives and Fours here than IRL, but it’s still overblown and ridiculous when people who are obviously not a type cling to it like a baby at a mother’s breast. 

...

Whoo boy that last metaphor is great but creepy af lol. Sucking their essence of identity from descriptions in order to reinforce their ego. Huh


----------



## owlet

I'd actually say the most common mistypes I've seen (no hard data to back it up) are 6 and 9 because someone who's quite anxious/neurotic can easily see themselves as 6 and someone who hates conflict can see themselves as 9, whereas these are generally ignoring the core aspect of the types' fear (6 fears being without stability/a sense of trust while 9 fears loss/separation) and their coping mechanisms (6s often test people and establishments to see if their trust is in the right place and 9s can numb out to conflict).


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> I'd actually say the most common mistypes I've seen (no hard data to back it up) are 6 and 9 because someone who's quite anxious/neurotic can easily see themselves as 6 and someone who hates conflict can see themselves as 9, whereas these are generally ignoring the core aspect of the types' fear (6 fears being without stability/a sense of trust while 9 fears loss/separation) and their coping mechanisms (6s often test people and establishments to see if their trust is in the right place and 9s can numb out to conflict).


I wouldn’t say it’s the most common mistype but as a whole I agree that this phenomena exists as well.


----------



## Dangerose

And some people constantly mistype at 2 and 7 because they're lonely and bored :shrug:


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> And some people constantly mistype at 2 and 7 because they're lonely and bored :shrug:


Names or fake. (You don’t count)

Two is one of those types that have a bad rep on here, along with Six and Three. They’re underrepresented. That said Six has been getting a steady rep improvement compared to how it once was for some reason~ I see plenty of Sixes now.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Names or fake. (You don’t count)
> 
> Two is one of those types that have a bad rep on here, along with Six and Three. They’re underrepresented. That said Six has been getting a steady rep improvement compared to how it once was for some reason~ I see plenty of Sixes now.


I mean I was kinda just making a joke about myself, because...it's the same thing really, isn't it? and no one ever calls me out on that because 2 isn't a popular type or whatever, don't think there's a difference

Didn't mean it was a common phenomenon but it's a likely phenomenon and as valid as the reasons for 4 and 5?

edit: yeah, and there are loads of 6s around now! definitely seen that changing
barely see 3s and those 3s barely talk about themselves
_________________

just learned my hotel room doesn't lock as someone just walked in (and left lol, not typing this with an intruder in my room), not what I expect in hotels


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> I wouldn’t say it’s the most common mistype but as a whole I agree that this phenomena exists as well.


I think most types are possible for a mistype (as each represents a common human fear and we experience all of them to an extent), but more than there being 'idealised' ones, I'd say it's mostly avoiding the ones given more of a bad rep (2, 3, 1, as far as I've heard, but it might have changed over time).


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> I mean I was kinda just making a joke about myself, because...it's the same thing really, isn't it? and no one ever calls me out on that because 2 isn't a popular type or whatever, don't think there's a difference
> 
> Didn't mean it was a common phenomenon but it's a likely phenomenon and as valid as the reasons for 4 and 5?
> 
> edit: yeah, and there are loads of 6s around now! definitely seen that changing
> barely see 3s and those 3s barely talk about themselves
> _________________
> 
> just learned my hotel room doesn't lock as someone just walked in (and left lol, not typing this with an intruder in my room), not what I expect in hotels


I don’t call you out because I have no effin certitude of what your type is and Two doesn’t seem ridiculous 

But you are welcome to accept the headcase label of Six that includes all people who aren’t easy to type lol.

“Daily reminder that Six is the most complex and diverse type of the Enneagram”. Or at least that’s what they say. Me I dunno.


----------



## Super Luigi

I hate counter-phobic 6s

no, that's nothing personal against anyone here

I'm just making an Enneagram complaint


----------



## Mr Castelo

It doesn't surprise me that there are few 3s here -- I'm not saying it's impossible for those types to frequent this forum, but 3s and 8s are the types that I find least likely to find themselves posting here regularly.


----------



## Super Luigi

Mr Castelo said:


> It doesn't surprise me that there are few 3s here -- I'm not saying it's impossible for those types to frequent this forum, but 3s and 8s are the types that I find least likely to find themselves posting here regularly.


They're ID types. I think it's easier for them to understand themselves.
The ego and superego types are at a disadvantage with that.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> It doesn't surprise me that there are few 3s here -- I'm not saying it's impossible for those types to frequent this forum, but 3s and 8s are the types that I find least likely to find themselves posting here regularly.


I’d say it would depend just how much validation and narcissistic fuel they can get from here.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> I’d say it would depend just how much validation and narcissistic fuel they can get from here.


None, too much contradiction.


----------



## owlet

ElectricSlime said:


> I’d say it would depend just how much validation and narcissistic fuel they can get from here.


And this is why no one wants to type as 3 :dejection:


----------



## Mr Castelo

The Penguin said:


> They're ID types. I think it's easier for them to understand themselves.
> The ego and superego types are at a disadvantage with that.


That's not the reason why I think that, I just find those types more engaged with reality and thus more likely to see posting on PerC as a waste of time. Not having a strong sense of self is one of type 3's flaws, and I see 8s as being somewhat emotionally retarded, so I don't think they would understand themselves more than other types in average, lol.


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> They're ID types. I think it's easier for them to understand themselves.
> The ego and superego types are at a disadvantage with that.


Not true at all.

Threes and Sevens are among those least prone to introspection and most prone to deny their inner world in favor of the appeal of the external one. They’re afraid to find out what’s in them, it’s a core part of the type. Most of the time anyway.


----------



## Super Luigi

owlet said:


> And this is why no one wants to type as 3 :dejection:


I hate promoting or advertising myself. I feel manipulated and forced. I think my own worth, achievement, and accomplishment should speak for itself. I don't need to tell anyone. They haven't been paying any attention.


----------



## Super Luigi

Mr Castelo said:


> That's not the reason why I think that, I just find those types more engaged with reality and thus more likely to see posting on PerC as a waste of time. Not having a strong sense of self is one of type 3's flaws, and I see 8s as being somewhat emotionally retarded, so I don't think they would understand themselves more than other types in average, lol.


You have a point.



ElectricSlime said:


> Not true at all.
> 
> Threes and Sevens are among those least prone to introspection and most prone to deny their inner world in favor of the appeal of the external one. They’re afraid to find out what’s in them, it’s a core part of the type. Most of the time anyway.


Then why are they called ID types?


----------



## owlet

The Penguin said:


> I hate promoting or advertising myself. I feel manipulated and forced. I think my own worth, achievement, and accomplishment should speak for itself. I don't need to tell anyone. They haven't been paying any attention.


Yeah, but even someone who had the fear of being worthless like a 3, and the motivation to appear successful in what they do to garner expressions of 'love' from others, would likely avoid a type called 'narcissistic' like the plague.


----------



## Super Luigi

owlet said:


> Yeah, but even someone who had the fear of being worthless like a 3, and the motivation to appear successful in what they do to garner expressions of 'love' from others, would likely avoid a type called 'narcissistic' like the plague.


I love looking at myself, but then I'm afraid of what that means, so I avoid it as much as possible.


----------



## ElectricSlime

owlet said:


> And this is why no one wants to type as 3 :dejection:


Lol, you got me. It’s definitely a strategy a Three might employ unconsciously.



The Penguin said:


> None, too much contradiction.


What does that mean ?


----------



## Mr Castelo

ElectricSlime said:


> I’d say it would depend just how much validation and narcissistic fuel they can get from here.


I'd think few of them would look for PerC as a main source for self-validation.



owlet said:


> And this is why no one wants to type as 3 :dejection:


I agree that his wording was not the best, but let's not sugarcoat everything, superficiality is one of type 3's biggest traits.


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> You have a point.
> 
> 
> Then why are they called ID types?


Cause they go after what they want. ID wants something, ID shall get it.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> What does that mean ?


the statement of a position opposite to one already made

A: I'm [insert Enneagram]
B: no you're not


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> Cause they go after what they want. ID wants something, ID shall get it.


So it has nothing to do with who they are. They're just selfish and entitled to everything they want.


----------



## ElectricSlime

What’s wrong with appreciating narcissistic fuel lol ?

I totally do, and I’m not particularly ashamed to say it :smug:


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> I don’t call you out because I have no effin certitude of what your type is and Two doesn’t seem ridiculous
> 
> But you are welcome to accept the headcase label of Six that includes all people who aren’t easy to type lol.
> 
> “Daily reminder that Six is the most complex and diverse type of the Enneagram”. Or at least that’s what they say. Me I dunno.


Ok, thanks)

(I don't like/understand that thing about 6, but plenty of people have seen me as a 6 and I consider it at times, but I don't relate to the general touchpoints of the type, idk if I'm just lying to myself or something though :/)


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> So it has nothing to do with who they are. They're just selfish and entitled to everything they want.


It’s all relative. Compared to other types, yes they would be. Doesn’t mean they’re necessarily self centered assholes tho.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> It’s all relative. Compared to other types, yes they would be. Doesn’t mean they’re necessarily self centered assholes tho.


Some of them are, they prove it with their behavior.


----------



## owlet

The Penguin said:


> I love looking at myself, but then I'm afraid of what that means, so I avoid it as much as possible.


How do you mean, afraid? You are yourself whether you consciously examine yourself or not.



ElectricSlime said:


> Lol, you got me. It’s definitely a strategy a Three might employ unconsciously.


Which is a strategy, sorry? 



Mr Castelo said:


> I agree that his wording was not the best, but let's not sugarcoat everything, superficiality is one of type 3's biggest traits.


I was mostly joking, but it's true that some types get less favourable descriptors attached to them. If a 3 was described instead as viewing themselves as charming (like the type 5 'withdrawn and intellectual' idea), there might be more people willing to explore it as a possibility (especially as 3s are likely to avoid that kind of negative image).


----------



## Super Luigi

owlet said:


> How do you mean, afraid? You are yourself whether you consciously examine yourself or not.


Looking at myself makes me question myself. Otherwise, I'm already confident.


----------



## Dangerose

Well, a 9 would be particularly sensitive to that as a concept and a 3 wouldn't have such a problem with it 

(narcissism)


----------



## Mr Castelo

owlet said:


> I was mostly joking, but it's true that some types get less favourable descriptors attached to them. If a 3 was described instead as viewing themselves as charming (like the type 5 'withdrawn and intellectual' idea), there might be more people willing to explore it as a possibility (especially as 3s are likely to avoid that kind of negative image).


I can agree with you to some extent, but I also can't help but think that most people are just more biased towards certain characteristics than others. 3s are often described as being driven, hard-working and ambitious, but people who study things like the Enneagram and MBTI often don't see themselves in those characteristics due to being nerds, so "deep and intellectual" appeals to them more and they see 5s more favourably even if plenty of people don't give a shit about being seen as an intellectual. So it's a problem of "target audience", perhaps.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@owlet

We misunderstood each other. I thought you were saying that Threes weren’t typing as such because they get their validation more effectively from typing as something else.



The Penguin said:


> Some of them are, they prove it with their behavior.


That’s not type exclusive, having douchebags around is just a part of mankind.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> That’s not type exclusive, having douchebags around is just a part of mankind.


How true, how true.


----------



## Full_fathom_4

Backing up a second....

4's really are the detritus of Enneagram boards. That's one good thing about this board, they're sequestered off, into their own sub-board. Let's not punish them further! 4-ism really does pollute general conversation though. Most here probably know this already, as few 4's have the constitution to venture from their penal colony  

But that being said, don't let me speak for the rest!


----------



## BroNerd

ElectricSlime said:


> @owlet
> 
> We misunderstood each other. I thought you were saying that Threes weren’t typing as such because they get their validation more effectively from typing as something else.
> 
> That’s not type exclusive, having douchebags around is just a part of mankind.


Yes, a tired and true coping mechanism for many. Usually way more fragile than they look,at first glance.


----------



## BroNerd

I think I have settled on my Enneagram.
3w2-7w6-9w8 sp/sx


----------



## Super Luigi

BroNerd said:


> I think I have settled on my Enneagram.
> 3w2-7w6-9w8 sp/sx


I wish I could say I'm 3w2 sp/so


----------



## BroNerd

The Penguin said:


> I wish I could say I'm 3w2 sp/so


Hmmm am curious as to why


----------



## Super Luigi

BroNerd said:


> Hmmm am curious as to why


Self-Preservation is my personal favorite subtype of Enneagram 3. They have success, but they don't brag. I think they pull off a successful life (finances, relationships, whatever they put their mind to) really well. I admire the success, and that they don't boast.


----------



## Brains

ElectricSlime said:


> They are.
> 
> Who doesn't want to be a deep and misunderstood independent intellectual both in touch with the rational world and his own emotion, a walking ubermensch ? Then git gud and type 5w4 or 4w5 mane. It's the same reason people latch onto the INTJ mastermind bullshit, thinking it makes them aspiring Light Yagamis, while INTJs are just plain nerds for the most part. Then again, Jung himself is to blame for deifying Ni doms and especially INTJs by whitewashing what Inferior Se should actually mean and overblowing their "tertiary Fi".
> 
> Not to mention, Four is a good way to rationalize away your failures in reality without having to take action to change your situation.
> 
> Edit: Maybe such self-image does not apply to you, but then again you're not an intellectual





Nissa Nissa said:


> Many people?
> And 4w5 and 5w4 are the opposite of 'ubermensch', they're at the bottom of the Enneagram because that is the part for the 'poor in spirit'
> I don't think many people _want_ to be 'deep and misunderstood' so much as maybe relate to that (perhaps for exaggerated reasons), but I don't see that as some sort of universal ideal, most people you see on the street are not trying to build up an image like that, some are but surely that's also partly what 4 and 5 is about - 4 is building an image around being different, 5 is retreating and keeping away from the world...


I doubt people want to actively be misunderstood, but since they feel that way, being a deep independent thinker is a far more flattering explanation than them being normies who just feel awkward. There's also the fact that a certain kind of individualism is prized in the West - creativity is nowadays less about doing what works or is beautiful, it has a huge component of doing things for self-expression's sake, "just because", so we end up with bloodband shit in a washing machine. The point of that "art" is to be different, and 4, 5, sx, soc-last etc. are prized. Paying heed to others even remotely is not desirable as a self-definition for some strange reason.

This kind of self-image stuff, unconsciously bullshitting myself, is partly why I have that signature down there. If you'd ask me what the best type is, I'd say 8w7. Self-assured, has that thinky spark in their eyes and speech going on (eg. Brian Dennehy, John Cassavetes, if you take the Institute typing, Jack Black). 

(Speaking of using this thread for its intended purpose, opinions on Brains 8w7? I feel like I fit Condon's 8w7s vibe-wise a lot better, but am patently a nerd hanging around on Enneagram forums, doing IT for a living, am enough of a nerd to read academic papers for fun and so on. 8w9 feels too heavy in feel, too gut too little brain. 8w7 feels like a good balanced mix of think, glimmer in the eye, want of more of the same good thing and low neuroticism. 

If I'm bsing 8, 8w7, I want to get tolld to shut my trap. 


@The Penguin like your new typing, feels like a good fit at least as a first stab.
@Mr Castelo your Big 5 is a good fit for 5, scarily so 



ElectricSlime said:


> I’d say it would depend just how much validation and narcissistic fuel they can get from here.


For me it's pretty much whether I get interesting discussion or have to coddle people's delusions. Forum rules are bad, yo.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Brains said:


> I doubt people want to actively be misunderstood, but since they feel that way, being a deep independent thinker is a far more flattering explanation than them being normies who just feel awkward. There's also the fact that a certain kind of individualism is prized in the West - creativity is nowadays less about doing what works or is beautiful, it has a huge component of doing things for self-expression's sake, "just because", so we end up with bloodband shit in a washing machine. The point of that "art" is to be different, and 4, 5, sx, soc-last etc. are prized. Paying heed to others even remotely is not desirable as a self-definition for some strange reason.
> 
> This kind of self-image stuff, unconsciously bullshitting myself, is partly why I have that signature down there. If you'd ask me what the best type is, I'd say 8w7. Self-assured, has that thinky spark in their eyes and speech going on (eg. Brian Dennehy, John Cassavetes, if you take the Institute typing, Jack Black).
> 
> (Speaking of using this thread for its intended purpose, opinions on Brains 8w7? I feel like I fit Condon's 8w7s vibe-wise a lot better, but am patently a nerd hanging around on Enneagram forums, doing IT for a living, am enough of a nerd to read academic papers for fun and so on. 8w9 feels too heavy in feel, too gut too little brain. 8w7 feels like a good balanced mix of think, glimmer in the eye, want of more of the same good thing and low neuroticism.
> 
> If I'm bsing 8, 8w7, I want to get tolld to shut my trap.
> 
> 
> @The Penguin like your new typing, feels like a good fit at least as a first stab.
> @Mr Castelo your Big 5 is a good fit for 5, scarily so
> 
> 
> 
> For me it's pretty much whether I get interesting discussion or have to coddle people's delusions. Forum rules are bad, yo.


Based on our interactions here you seem a bit sly for what I’d expect from a SP 8w9. More Gordon Gekko than John Wayne, I’d be down with 8w7 over 8w9.

Still not sure I buy into the INTJ Eight business though. In Socionics you’d be Beta ST I think.


----------



## Brains

ElectricSlime said:


> Based on our interactions here you seem a bit sly for what I’d expect from a SP 8w9. More Gordon Gekko than John Wayne, I’d be down with 8w7 over 8w9.
> 
> Still not sure I buy into the INTJ Eight business though. In Socionics you’d be Beta ST I think.


Fuck, I haven't watched Wall Street, so I guess that goes on the watchlist.

I literally have no idea about my sociotype, the descriptions are a tad all over the place and figuring out what the impact of pizzaverted three-dimensional fuckwadness is is a bit of a bitch. Overcomplication, hooray :angry:

...okay, I watched a couple clips of the character. Not sure I'm quite like that, but I love him already XD


----------



## owlet

Mr Castelo said:


> I can agree with you to some extent, but I also can't help but think that most people are just more biased towards certain characteristics than others. 3s are often described as being driven, hard-working and ambitious, but people who study things like the Enneagram and MBTI often don't see themselves in those characteristics due to being nerds, so "deep and intellectual" appeals to them more and they see 5s more favourably even if plenty of people don't give a shit about being seen as an intellectual. So it's a problem of "target audience", perhaps.


Yeah, some people are more biased to certain types of self-image, although I would disagree it's either 4 and 5 being the most common mistypes or the main reason for those mistypes - but then there's no actual evidence either way, so it's a matter of perspective. I also don't think the majority of people online are 'nerds' these days as it's pretty mainstream (but again, no evidence).



ElectricSlime said:


> @*owlet*
> 
> We misunderstood each other. I thought you were saying that Threes weren’t typing as such because they get their validation more effectively from typing as something else.


Ah, okay, that makes sense.


----------



## Dangerose

Anyone see 4?

(wouldn't actually want to be a 4 and something feels really wrong about it but :/)

was looking through some old typing threads trying to find something I wrote that I think I deleted, so many people were saying obviously 6 and obviously sx-last

never sure what people understood about me at the time, but...anyone think that?


----------



## Krayfish

Not that I’ve had a ton of interaction with you, but I’d sort of be shocked if you were a 4 core. You come across very similar to the tritype you’ve had listed in your sig

(Edit: I can’t post quote for some reason)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> Anyone see 4?
> 
> (wouldn't actually want to be a 4 and something feels really wrong about it but :/)
> 
> was looking through some old typing threads trying to find something I wrote that I think I deleted, so many people were saying obviously 6 and obviously sx-last
> 
> never sure what people understood about me at the time, but...anyone think that?


You know, you’ve been here for four years now, at this point you should have a good grasp of the theory and have realized yourself that throwing suggestions and hoping people can get down your type in your stead is kind of a fruitless endeavor. I know I would’ve lost patience long ago.

That way of going about things is stereotypically 6w7 btw (Paradigm isn’t currently here to nag me about my generalizations so yeah).


----------



## Dangerose

@Krayfish thanks!



ElectricSlime said:


> You know, you’ve been here for four years now


What a horrific fact to point out



> I know I would’ve lost patience long ago.


can't be impatient if you have nothing else to do :words:



> That way of going about things is stereotypically 6w7 btw (Paradigm isn’t currently here to nag me about my generalizations so yeah).


Yeah, I've heard that before, never really understood the connection


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> @Krayfish thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> What a horrific fact to point out
> 
> 
> 
> can't be impatient if you have nothing else to do :words:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've heard that before, never really understood the connection


Lack of inner authority + w7 idea generation + 6w7 described as more openly dependant and seeking of others’ input than the more focused and independent 6w5. Not to mention the scattered rambling with a lot of mental chatter behind it.

I think 6w7 is a plausible option for both you and Vixey. As is 2w3.


----------



## Mr Castelo

Brains said:


> @Mr Castelo your Big 5 is a good fit for 5, scarily so


How so? I'd think your Myers-Briggs type would correlate more to the Big 5 than ennea-type, generally speaking.



owlet said:


> Yeah, some people are more biased to certain types of self-image, although I would disagree it's either 4 and 5 being the most common mistypes or the main reason for those mistypes - but then there's no actual evidence either way, so it's a matter of perspective. I also don't think the majority of people online are 'nerds' these days as it's pretty mainstream (but again, no evidence).


Fair enough, but I wasn't saying that the majority of people online are "nerds" either, I was referring to the community surrounding typology specifically, which is a fairly "niche" subject and more likely to attract the so-called nerds.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Lack of inner authority + w7 idea generation + 6w7 described as more openly dependant and seeking of others’ input than the more focused and independent 6w5. Not to mention the scattered rambling with a lot of mental chatter behind it.
> 
> I think 6w7 is a plausible option for both you and Vixey. As is 2w3.


Hm, ok, thanks!
I don't really like meta-typing (and I'm going to kill the next person who refers to my 'scattered rambling') but I guess?


----------



## Dangerose

Though I was thinking about something...if not 6ish superegoish at least, don't feel like I value competency but I *hate* being told I've done something wrong

Like today I was waiting for the bus and I normally don't if it feels like something people will notice but I was desperate due to my very heavy suitcase that the wheels have fallen off of, some guy came up and was like 'if you're waiting for the bus, you're going to be waiting for a long time, they aren't running today', very jovial and pleasant, but that was like the worst case scenario for me, actually wanted to cry for half a moment, hate hate hate that, avoid any situation where someone could possibly come up and tell me I'm doing something wrong

edit: in general I'd rather be lost for hours than ask someone for directions, can't even explain why, at some point I just don't like sharing my plans with people, could be 6ish?










remember seeing this and relating to it :laughing: not quite the same but it amused me


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> Though I was thinking about something...if not 6ish superegoish at least, don't feel like I value competency but I *hate* being told I've done something wrong
> 
> Like today I was waiting for the bus and I normally don't if it feels like something people will notice but I was desperate due to my very heavy suitcase that the wheels have fallen off of, some guy came up and was like 'if you're waiting for the bus, you're going to be waiting for a long time, they aren't running today', very jovial and pleasant, but that was like the worst case scenario for me, actually wanted to cry for half a moment, hate hate hate that, avoid any situation where someone could possibly come up and tell me I'm doing something wrong
> 
> edit: in general I'd rather be lost for hours than ask someone for directions, can't even explain why, at some point I just don't like sharing my plans with people, could be 6ish?


See that is scattered rambling lol.

Stop looking at isolated incidents ffs (everyone has at least a bit of everything in them that show up on different instances), look at the bigger picture. Who you are as a person and who you have been. Can’t be all that complicated. 

Eh, I feel like a broken record at this point. Your example is just a case of being image conscious and somewhat shy, which applies to a fuckload of people.

Also the hell is meta-typing ?


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> See that is scattered rambling lol.














> Stop looking at isolated incidents ffs (everyone has at least a bit of everything in them that show up on different instances), look at the bigger picture. Who you are as a person and who you have been. Can’t be all that complicated.


But it's not an isolated incident, it's exactly the mindset I have every day, every time I go to town, every time I'm in public and have to make a decision, every time I do something around other people, I'm constantly seriously inconvenienced to the point of living in a different world, because I don't have the ability or willingness to communicate anything of my own plans, part of which comes from being afraid of being corrected, I'm not once in a while afraid of being corrected, it's all the time and for something as stupid as waiting for a bus that isn't running which I'd have no way of knowing, or even if I'm actually right but someone still has occasion to correct me



> Eh, I feel like a broken record at this point. Your example is just a case of being image conscious and somewhat shy, which applies to a fuckload of people.


But it's _not_ being image-conscious, or even being shy really - I don't really care how the people in the city see me, I mean I do but not for something like this, it's not about how I look in the moment, not about looking like I'm wrong, it's about the fact of someone correcting me, or how uncomfortable I feel to have that channel of communication open, I expect to have my own tunnel of existence, don't like having to consult outside it

Shyness part of it but not really I don't think, I mean I'm shy but it's not the same, often too 'shy' to go into restaurants but it's more about not being able to navigate the whole system, like not having a clear idea of what's going on, exactly what to do, not afraid of looking stupid, honestly don't mind people to see me as awkward or confused, but...yeah?



> Also the hell is meta-typing ?


Typing based on how someone types?


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> But it's not an isolated incident, it's exactly the mindset I have every day, every time I go to town, every time I'm in public and have to make a decision, every time I do something around other people, I'm constantly seriously inconvenienced to the point of living in a different world, because I don't have the ability or willingness to communicate anything of my own plans, part of which comes from being afraid of being corrected, I'm not once in a while afraid of being corrected, it's all the time and for something as stupid as waiting for a bus that isn't running which I'd have no way of knowing, or even if I'm actually right but someone still has occasion to correct me
> 
> 
> 
> But it's _not_ being image-conscious, or even being shy really - I don't really care how the people in the city see me, I mean I do but not for something like this, it's not about how I look in the moment, not about looking like I'm wrong, it's about the fact of someone correcting me, or how uncomfortable I feel to have that channel of communication open, I expect to have my own tunnel of existence, don't like having to consult outside it
> 
> Shyness part of it but not really I don't think, I mean I'm shy but it's not the same, often too 'shy' to go into restaurants but it's more about not being able to navigate the whole system, like not having a clear idea of what's going on, exactly what to do, not afraid of looking stupid, honestly don't mind people to see me as awkward or confused, but...yeah?
> 
> 
> 
> Typing based on how someone types?


I’m afraid I can’t make sense of any of this in relation to enneagram. Seriously it just sounds like the overblown version of what I’ve heard from some people countless times IRL.

@Brains 

Have anything to say about Nissa’s type ?


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> I’m afraid I can’t make sense of any of this in relation to enneagram. Seriously it just sounds like the overblown version of what I’ve heard from some people countless times IRL.
> 
> @Brains
> 
> Have anything to say about Nissa’s type ?


I mean I'm not claiming it's just me 

It does feel unusual though, don't think most people understand this mindset - for example don't think you've understood  but mostly because I'm explaining badly/it might not be one singular thing to understand

but it seems related to superego to not like to be corrected/to be afraid of criticism, I think?

Anyways, no matter)


----------



## Dangerose

:butterfly:


----------



## Lunacik

@ElectricSlime come to find out, having a "fluid" self is still a 4 thing. All that I described was still 4...


----------



## Darkbloom

Can people see 6w7 for me? 
It's confusing because I don't really relate to it, I genuinely don't think I do, not trying to deny my fears and idk what or whatever, just don't relate to head type but could be because I'm used to being a head type?
Feel like in some ways it makes more sense than anything else, 7 wing makes sense too.


----------



## Darkbloom

Yesterday something reminded me and I remembered, used to think of things like that as sp 2-ish but that's so stupid honestly, like realized how when I was younger I couldn't stand people expecting me to be the mature one, can't even describe how offensive it was to me and how much I hated it, so whenever I was with younger kids or immature people I'd subconsciously make myself act even more immature than them so it'd look like my immaturity knows no bounds and no one would ever seriously ask of me to be mature, always wanted to be the youngest person in a group of people.
I mean thought it could be image type-ish because it was related to love and such and like....a bit attention-y, and liked people having to struggle a bit with me  but don't think any of that goes against 6 or 7, actually feels very much like a 6/7 border thing to me more than any of image type mechanisms? 
Seems like a stupid story but that kind of thing was 60% of my life until my late teens at least.


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> It's not exclusive to Se Inferior (people often don't have one sole weakness) but rather applicable to any type with weak Se. It's not the same as laziness and underconfidence (or merely incompetence) in skills though.


What is the difference? Between actually weak Se and laziness, underconfidence and incompetence? 



> Edit: You're just IP temperament Vixey, see what I pasted below.





> Typical characteristics:
> relaxed
> go-with-the-flow
> movements are flexible, unhurried


idk if flexible, quite hurried



> finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy


I go to the store 10 times a day just for the sake of going somewhere, I constantly go to cafes and restaurants, like purposely don't order everything at once so I'd have a reason to go again later in the day, when I'm visiting my mom I literally go insane after a week because she doesn't go anywhere unless there's actually a thing she needs to or wants to do, she has to take me to places every day if she wants to keep me sane.
Constantly wanting for concerts, fairs and such, obviously I'm not very proactive with things so could be Ixxp-y but it's also how I am for other reasons and idk.



> little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods


very fidgety and impatient, love being home alone so I can at least listen to music and walk around the apartment, or like I often walk for miles because I don't feel like waiting 10 minutes for a bus, can't stand being still


> IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change.


Can see this



> An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.


not sure



> As introverts, IPs tend to be relaxed and somewhat passive about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative.


But how do I know this is Ixxp rather than incompetence and underconfidence? 


I mean I could still see IEI but I don't think this is the most me thing in the world.


----------



## Lunacik

Mr Castelo said:


> It doesn't surprise me that there are few 3s here -- I'm not saying it's impossible for those types to frequent this forum, but 3s and 8s are the types that I find least likely to find themselves posting here regularly.


What about the _most _likely type, in your mind's eye?


----------



## Darkbloom

Not that against Ixxp btw, I'd say Exxp>Ixxp>>>>>Exxj>>>>>>>>Ixxj (just looking at temperaments)


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Vixey

That practically discards any 1D Se type. Also makes SEI less likely but not impossible. +Points for 6w7 or 7w6.

Anyway speaking as a fidgety and impatient person that is always walking uber fast and passing people to get to a destination, what you describe still feels like a pain in the ass to keep up with lmao. Extroverted Result type perhaps. Interesting.


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> @ElectricSlime come to find out, having a "fluid" self is still a 4 thing. All that I described was still 4...


Everyone has a fluid and dynamic sense of self, that’s part of growing as a human and taking part in social interactions.

Some of what you said actually conflicts with Four IIRC. Kinda sleep deprived and crushed under tasks atm, I’ll get back to this when I can.


----------



## Dangerose

@Vixey relate to everything you wrote, was going to say something somewhere in the thread about how IxxP sounds like the opposite of me, this thing stood out especially:



> like purposely don't order everything at once so I'd have a reason to go again later in the day


All the time, constantly sorta inventing things to do or making things more difficult or whatever so that I have something to do

One reason it always horrifies me when someone steps in to 'solve my problems', like if I mention I want something (I mean 'let's go get it!' or that I'm going to at some point and then someone gets it when they're out, it's like being slapped in the face but I have to pretend to be happy :frustrating

(though in some circumstances it would make me happy, depends)


----------



## Brains

Vixey said:


> Was actually wondering about instincts, think you thanked a couple of Slime's posts so I thought you had an opinion, but maybe you just enjoy watching people poke fun at me
> You don't have to answer if you don't have an opinion, I already got more than I expected haha, think enneagram is the most difficult kind of feedback to give so I try not to ask for it but thank you for giving it
> (so surprised to see you I guess considered 8w9)
> Curious about what "too little fuss" means?
> 
> I'd say 3 fix and probably sp/so, and I tend to think of you as a 8w9. Not sure about head fix but I'll go with 5w6.
> Can't see 4, like your approach to typology is very 8 with a 3 fix XD


Instincts-wise, not sure why you'd type at so-last. Just don't vibe that way IMO.

Didn't actively consider 8w9, was more like "okay, somewhere in 7 neighborhood, 6w5 lolnope", then just went to the other direction until I hit a total brick wall. 8w9 was that no fit at all brick wall. As far as fuss goes, 2w1 feels a bit like a helicopter mom to me, you know the style. Constantly adjusting little things so they end up better. While possibly driving the people around insane if it's a bad case. :tongue: 
Dunno if that perception is the most accurate one in the world, and probably doesn't come across on forums so much. 2, 6, 7 are my candidates in no particular order.

Why 8w9 over other sane options like w7 and the other fixes? Agreed on no 4 fix :tongue:



> your approach to typology is very 8 with a 3 fix XD


Hm?



Mr Castelo said:


> How so? I'd think your Myers-Briggs type would correlate more to the Big 5 than ennea-type, generally speaking.


There's a research report (not an academic peer-reviewed journal article proper, mind you) where the researchers gave a personality questionnaire that included a Big 5 instrument to people who had been mostly manually typed by Enneagram Institute staff. The average Big 5 profiles were pretty interesting stuff, basically a look at how the people actually are, independent of type description. Fives happened to score very low on Extraversion, low on Agreeableness and high on Openness. Doesn't necessarily mean you're a Five, of course, but the traits mean certain things that could be enlightening Enneagram wise.



Nissa Nissa said:


> Well, a 9 would be particularly sensitive to that as a concept and a 3 wouldn't have such a problem with it
> 
> (narcissism)


Apparently it's pretty effective to just ask narcissistic-ish people if they have those kinds of tendencies. Most don't see the problem and will just say yea.



Mr Castelo said:


> owlet said:
> 
> 
> 
> it's true that some types get less favourable descriptors attached to them. If a 3 was described instead as viewing themselves as charming (like the type 5 'withdrawn and intellectual' idea), there might be more people willing to explore it as a possibility (especially as 3s are likely to avoid that kind of negative image).
> 
> 
> 
> I can agree with you to some extent, but I also can't help but think that most people are just more biased towards certain characteristics than others. 3s are often described as being driven, hard-working and ambitious, but people who study things like the Enneagram and MBTI often don't see themselves in those characteristics due to being nerds, so "deep and intellectual" appeals to them more and they see 5s more favourably even if plenty of people don't give a shit about being seen as an intellectual. So it's a problem of "target audience", perhaps.
Click to expand...

A lot of it can be blamed on Jung, I think, and more specifically to the tripe that extraverts are shallow and introverts deep thinkers. It's the kind of construction that's inherently appealing to our silly little brains but doesn't necessarily pan out in practice. Hell, if anything it's the opposite as Openness/Intellect, the personality trait most typically associated with an artistic/intellectual bent has positive correlations with Extraversion.



Nissa Nissa said:


> was looking through some old typing threads trying to find something I wrote that I think I deleted, so many people were saying obviously 6 and obviously sx-last


This is why we don't delete things :dry:



ElectricSlime said:


> Based on our interactions here you seem a bit sly for what I’d expect from a SP 8w9. More Gordon Gekko than John Wayne, I’d be down with 8w7 over 8w9.
> 
> Still not sure I buy into the INTJ Eight business though. In Socionics you’d be Beta ST I think.


Still need to watch Wall Street. INTJ 8 in the 4 functions sense makes some sense to me, maybe, ILI 8 not so much. test!INTJ 8 = lulz.

Why Beta ST? The most plainly true thing about me typology wise is that I'm a Te type, I think.



Vixey said:


> Yesterday something reminded me and I remembered, used to think of things like that as sp 2-ish


Subtypes, not even once.



Vixey said:


> I go to the store 10 times a day just for the sake of going somewhere, I constantly go to cafes and restaurants, like purposely don't order everything at once so I'd have a reason to go again later in the day, when I'm visiting my mom I literally go insane after a week because she doesn't go anywhere unless there's actually a thing she needs to or wants to do, she has to take me to places every day if she wants to keep me sane.


:laughing:

Definitely in your mom's camp on this one :laughing:



ElectricSlime said:


> Everyone has a fluid and dynamic sense of self, that’s part of growing as a human and taking part in social interactions.
> 
> Some of what you said actually conflicts with Four IIRC. Kinda sleep deprived and crushed under tasks atm, I’ll get back to this when I can.


Yes and no:



Daniel Nettle - Personality: What makes us the way we are said:


> Coupled with low self-esteem is instability in the self-concept. The high Neuroticism scorer is constantly ruminating, wondering whether she has done the right thing in life. Presumably one of the dangers our negative emotions are designed to detect is the danger of taking the wrong path in life, and so when the negative emotions are active, we will constantly doubt this. Susan, like many of my high-Neuroticism correspondents, reports several changes of identity and goals, continuing well into mature life: ‘I often wondered whether I was doing the right thing in life'. Such correspondents often begin their accounts by saying how grateful they are for this opportunity to reflect on their lives, and try to sort out for themselves what they are trying to do. Low scorers don't say this; they know what they are trying to do, and they probably write for my benefit rather than their own. The high scorers can write a lot, too, perhaps because I have given them a licence to ruminate.


Fours tend to higher but not skyhigh Neuroticism and high Openness, so much melancholy rumination.



Nissa Nissa said:


> One reason it always horrifies me when someone steps in to 'solve my problems', like if I mention I want something (I mean 'let's go get it!' or that I'm going to at some point and then someone gets it when they're out, it's like being slapped in the face but I have to pretend to be happy :frustrating


I just get irritated since some of those interventions feel like them looking down on me, want to take care of my own shit ffs :angry:


Seems like I accidentally a book. This page is mine, mine I tell you! :tongue:


----------



## Lunacik

Vixey said:


> What is the difference? Between actually weak Se and laziness, underconfidence and incompetence?


Between weak Se and Laziness: The effort you put forth.
Between weak Se and incompetence: there are multiple intelligences, and being bad at one thing doesn't mean you're incompetent...even if most of the world does have intelligence in the Se dept so that the things seem "basic" or "elementary" to them.

Ni has a use
Ne has a use
Se has a use
Si has a use
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, so "actually weak Se" doesn't equate to incompetence any more than perfect Se would translate into competence.

If that answer is insufficient...what's the difference between weak Ni and incompetence?



owlet said:


> Yeah, but even someone who had the fear of being worthless like a 3, and the motivation to appear successful in what they do to garner expressions of 'love' from others, would likely avoid a type called 'narcissistic' like the plague.


Who wouldn't? Nobody wants to be a narcissist.



owlet said:


> I was mostly joking, but it's true that some types get less favourable descriptors attached to them. If a 3 was described instead as viewing themselves as charming (like the type 5 'withdrawn and intellectual' idea), there might be more people willing to explore it as a possibility (especially as 3s are likely to avoid that kind of negative image).


I agree with this entirely. For me, the fact that 4 (followed by w3 out of the two options under 4) is basically the one type I don't want to identify myself as being though, is a clue into myself that it might be the core type that I am.
"I am like any type but 4...not that there is anything wrong with being one, but that isn't me because I am not these ways (that I have been in my past) and--" uhh ok self, then you might just a biased 4 who is ashamed of certain facets of 4 that you dislike about either your current self or your former self.

All of us have the capacity to be repulsed by our _actual _selves because every type has flaws and it may just be that we don't want to identify with our true ones, preferring instead to accept other (less prominent) flaws as we deny the ones that are actually more prevalent still. Everyone wants to see themselves in a positive light, and pills are harder to swallow than honey. Anyone honest with themselves and seeking the actual truth should be able to find their true type with enough effort (if there is any true type at all in the system), and those seeking growth might actually be thankful that something out there elucidated this facet of themselves, that they might be able to now confront it rather than allowing it to linger.

Perhaps it might be more effective to demonstrate positives of types up front, but include negatives later for growth, development, insight to weaknesses, etc?
So for instance, 4's introspection can result in being self-absorbed if not balanced.
Present the balanced quality first, and reveal the dynamics of things becoming unbalanced through more intensive studies?

But as things currently are, is the issue one of type descriptions, or of honesty and accuracy in self-reflection?
Not very many people are able to look inside themselves and find, "why yes, I am in fact, a little bit narcissistic by nature. Okay. That's there. What can I do to change?"
Even if they're willing to, it can be difficult to see accurately to the inside.
Even if they accurately see to the inside, it can be challenging knowing where to start.



The Penguin said:


> Self-Preservation is my personal favorite subtype of Enneagram 3. They have success, but they don't brag. I think they pull off a successful life (finances, relationships, whatever they put their mind to) really well. I admire the success, and that they don't boast.


Some do boast. Very much so. That's just subjective character development. Any time there is success, the potential for arrogance and bragging ensues. Problems arise when people don't divide character from personality. However, I personally do believe that certain personalities might have a natural lean towards certain character traits.



ElectricSlime said:


> Everyone has a fluid and dynamic sense of self, that’s part of growing as a human and taking part in social interactions.
> 
> Some of what you said actually conflicts with Four IIRC. Kinda sleep deprived and crushed under tasks atm, I’ll get back to this when I can.


True. Well...also, the _only _type in the entire Enneagram system that I am biased against being is the type someone who knows me well is insisting on. It's also the type associated with INFJs. I'm not that great at accuracy in introspection, thus the things I said previously might not be very accurate for me. He also made a lot of connections in things. I see it throughout my life, I just don't want to be because of the negative traits I can see in my past. Thus, I'm fairly certain of being one. This is sort of like what happened with learning I'm an INFJ, too...but without the huge "aha!" moment.


* *






















I probably am...




I'll move past it if so.



Edit: I'm over the bias now.


----------



## Mr Castelo

RGB said:


> What about the _most _likely type, in your mind's eye?


I've seen a research indicating that most people on PerC type as 5 and 4, but how accurate that is is up to you. I think it's likely that this site attracts more Withdrawn types than the average, but if I were to guess, 9s and 6s are the types most attracted to typology for similar, but different reasons: it can provide a sense of identity to 9s, and a system that they can latch on to for 6s.



Brains said:


> There's a research report (not an academic peer-reviewed journal article proper, mind you) where the researchers gave a personality questionnaire that included a Big 5 instrument to people who had been mostly manually typed by Enneagram Institute staff. The average Big 5 profiles were pretty interesting stuff, basically a look at how the people actually are, independent of type description. Fives happened to score very low on Extraversion, low on Agreeableness and high on Openness. Doesn't necessarily mean you're a Five, of course, but the traits mean certain things that could be enlightening Enneagram wise.


I see. Can you give me a link to that?



> Still need to watch Wall Street. INTJ 8 in the 4 functions sense makes some sense to me, maybe, ILI 8 not so much. test!INTJ 8 = lulz.


To be honest, I have no idea of how inferior Se can make sense with E8, and I find ILI 8 to be pretty much impossible, or at least highly unlikely. I guess you could say that Te-aux makes up for that, but for some reason I only ever see INTJs typing as 8s, not ISTJs. Maybe in Socionics you're an LIE, LSE or Beta ST like ElectricSlime said.


----------



## owlet

RGB said:


> Who wouldn't? Nobody wants to be a narcissist.


Exactly.



> I agree with this entirely. For me, the fact that 4 (followed by w3 out of the two options under 4) is basically the one type I don't want to identify myself as being though, is a clue into myself that it might be the core type that I am.
> "I am like any type but 4...not that there is anything wrong with being one, but that isn't me because I am not these ways (that I have been in my past) and--" uhh ok self, then you might just a biased 4 who is ashamed of certain facets of 4 that you dislike about either your current self or your former self.
> 
> All of us have the capacity to be repulsed by our _actual _selves because every type has flaws and it may just be that we don't want to identify with our true ones, preferring instead to accept other (less prominent) flaws as we deny the ones that are actually more prevalent still. Everyone wants to see themselves in a positive light, and pills are harder to swallow than honey. Anyone honest with themselves and seeking the actual truth should be able to find their true type with enough effort (if there is any true type at all in the system), and those seeking growth might actually be thankful that something out there elucidated this facet of themselves, that they might be able to now confront it rather than allowing it to linger.
> 
> Perhaps it might be more effective to demonstrate positives of types up front, but include negatives later for growth, development, insight to weaknesses, etc?
> So for instance, 4's introspection can result in being self-absorbed if not balanced.
> Present the balanced quality first, and reveal the dynamics of things becoming unbalanced through more intensive studies?
> 
> But as things currently are, is the issue one of type descriptions, or of honesty and accuracy in self-reflection?
> Not very many people are able to look inside themselves and find, "why yes, I am in fact, a little bit narcissistic by nature. Okay. That's there. What can I do to change?"
> Even if they're willing to, it can be difficult to see accurately to the inside.
> Even if they accurately see to the inside, it can be challenging knowing where to start.


I found personally I just never considered any image type (until someone suggested it and followed that up with a good argument), but it's unfortunately true that many people can be repulsed by their 'true selves', even though that self is probably of the same value (but of a different type) than the idealised form in their mind. 

I'm not sure about just using positives, as I think that somewhat defeats the purpose of enneagram (which is to encourage growth), but there does need to be equal treatment of the types so that people don't avoid certain ones for fear of being given a negative rep. Mostly the system relies on people being willing to spend time reflecting on themselves - and in the end it depends what you want to use the system for. I mess around with it for fun, but if someone wasn't that interested, they likely wouldn't want to spend the time on that.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

RGB said:


> Who wouldn't? Nobody wants to be a narcissist.


That wouldn't be a major reason for me to want to avoid a type lol

I know some would be less worried about it than me too


----------



## Dangerose

Eh I don't mind being seen as a narcissist, think it's one of those things people with higher narcissism don't mind so much?
(actually I'd probably rather be seen as more narcissistic than I am, it's kinda a cool trait to me lol)

though don't like being seen as self-absorbed (which I OBVIOUSLY genuinely am) but I can see that as a trait in myself no matter what (feels a bit 7ish, always feel low-key proud of myself for acting interested in other people

I mean I genuinely am interested in a lot of other people to be clear, part of it is that I find it conversationally difficult to show it at some point, uncomfortable asking personal questions and I tend to say something about myself and then hope people will respond with a similar stories about themselves, similar to saying your name when you want to find out someone else's, so it's not all about narcissism lol, just finding a clever way to ask about someone without it being personal or something

______

Just was thinking about that IEI guy and how well he fit that IP temperament really well, that amount of passivity in a way of being is quite strange to me (think I'm right about that typing and it's quite an interesting example, but don't like talking about other people that much, I mean don't know him that well so it's creepy)

But he described me as so direct, forceful, etc. (made him choose an Enneagram type for me after explaining the system for only 5 minutes though and he said 8), imagine he saw exaggerated version of my Se due to 1D Se

Notice same thing from my EII friend, sees me as really forceful, direct, also thought I was an 8 in Enneagram, it's one of the main thing she brings up when discussing my personality, that I like to get my way and am very domineering and have lots of willpower etc

Also not sure if it's just that they see exaggerated version or also that I act more Se with people with weak Se, because I see the void or just the opportunity :/ like not consciously but I think I tend to feel very comfortable around weak Se people to use Se, I mean even my mother for example, Se-ignoring for sure, would see me as _pretty_ strong Se but don't think it's the first trait she associates with me, and I act differently around her, it's not like having a toy I can drag around (which isn't ACTUALLY how I view 1D Se people but it accidentally happens like that), think she can feel a bit preyed-upon by me  and generally expects more 9ishness, and I'm quite comfortable with her, don't really hold back but there's more...tension, not in bad way particularly but idk

Is that making sense? Just trying to think about my Se placement, think it could be a pathetic Se HA thing, like it's just waiting to come out at any opportunity? but doesn't really take the big opportunities, rarely that Se-ish I don't think with people I'm intimidated by

(I mean, I think I can be at all times with enough provocation but I have to make a decision, there are many situations where I'm not naturally oozing Se, therefore I lose ground, generally come off the least Se person ever with employers for example, like way too much and I come off like a person who has barely existed in the world, and they think I can't do anything, often slowly surprise them, but I have no idea how to come off deferential and not a total dormouse at the same time, often in dormouse mode)


----------



## Lunacik

Nissa Nissa said:


> though don't like being seen as self-absorbed (which I OBVIOUSLY genuinely am) but I can see that as a trait in myself no matter what (feels a bit 7ish, always feel low-key proud of myself for acting interested in other people
> 
> I mean I genuinely am interested in a lot of other people to be clear, part of it is that I find it conversationally difficult to show it at some point, uncomfortable asking personal questions and I tend to say something about myself and then hope people will respond with a similar stories about themselves, similar to saying your name when you want to find out someone else's, so it's not all about narcissism lol, just finding a clever way to ask about someone without it being personal or something


Can this also be attributed to MBTI Expressive Facet?
http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/222794-descriptions-mbti-step-ii-facets.html





> (actually I'd probably rather be seen as more narcissistic than I am, it's kinda a cool trait to me lol)



How?!


----------



## Super Luigi

I lack a lot of courage, motivation, and will power to do what I need to do in life. I do what I can but I can be lazy or overwhelmed with what's in my way. This is why I'm jealous of Enneagram 3 and 8. I mean, 3s and 8s may do this occasionally, but I tend to be like this, it's not unusual. I'm also terrible at getting along with most people, or fitting in. I don't even care about asking people about themselves. I'd rather they volunteer to tell me.


----------



## Lunacik

@ElectricSlime
So, I'm like 99% positive I'm a 4w5.


----------



## Darkbloom

Can't respond to things, have to study, just wanted to say I'm trying on so/sx, think it's gonna make at least some people happy :fox:
(not that that's why I'm doing it, just feel like it's possible I'm taking my So for granted because I'm not surrounded by social environment anymore and idk, I have reasons but too long to explain, and for some reason sx seems alright as the second instinct, could also see sx/so I guess but don't have many feelings about my instincts in general, I mean if I'm sp that tells me something, so/sx and sx/so are both like...idk ok whatever, I mean says something but nothing I didn't know before and that's not explained by other aspects of my personality :/ but it's possible I'm overcomplicating things with sp/sx)


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> @ElectricSlime
> So, I'm like 99% positive I'm a 4w5.


Yeah, I looked up what you told me again and I can’t see Four at all honestly. Like I said, I’ll get back to this more in depth when I’m not caught up between two exams and surviving on enough caffeine to kill an elephant.

FWIW most people would label me a Eight, and I have this weird visceral anger against the concept of Type 9 for some reason (even though I get along well with them and they even seem to gravitate towards me) but it definitely doesn’t make me a Nine (not even close lol), so that seems lightweight as an indicator for one’s type imo. I did fight against being a 6 for a while but I don’t think Enneagram has to be a “OMG NEED TO PUKE, PREGNANT WITH DESPAIR AND SELF LOATHING” moment kind of thing. But like I said, I’ll develop more later.


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> Yeah, I looked up what you told me again and I can’t see Four at all honestly. Like I said, I’ll get back to this more in depth when I’m not caught up between two exams and surviving on enough caffeine to kill an elephant.
> 
> FWIW most people would label me a Eight, and I have this weird visceral anger against the concept of Type 9 for some reason (even though I get along well with them and they even seem to gravitate towards me) but it definitely doesn’t make me a Nine (not even close lol), so that seems lightweight as an indicator for one’s type imo. I did fight against being a 6 for a while but I don’t think Enneagram has to be a “OMG NEED TO PUKE, PREGNANT WITH DESPAIR AND SELF LOATHING” moment kind of thing. But like I said, I’ll develop more later.


I see. Interesting.

I'll message you privately with why I think I'm 4w5. I'm uncomfortable sharing some things publicly, but your input seems valuable. No rush, I understand that you're busy and have your own life, and I appreciate you taking the time to help. Just going to send for whenever you are able to get to it for the missing facts to be taken into account.

Yeah lol definitely does not need to be a need to puke / pregnant with despair / self loathing thing.
Since I put a puke emoji...hopefully it wasn't interpreted that way. I just use that face a lot. It's my favorite emoji.


----------



## ElectricSlime

I’m at a library right now and some guy earlier asked me the time. I answered him. Five minutes later he turns around and asks me if I wanted his bookmark, thought “why the fuck not” and took it. Another 5 minutes later he turns around and asks me for my Facebook to chill and do something sometime. I frown and say “Dude we literally met 10 minutes ago”. He replies “Who cares ”. He introduces himself (forgot the name right away lol) and I do the same. I ask him if he’s waiting for his exam too and he says he doesn’t go to school here yet (the fuck). He asks me where to return the books he borrowed, thanks me way too many times for that and leaves after a hndshake.

The fuck was up with all that :laughin: Is this the Alpha quadra in the wild lol ? My brain came up with a few possibilities: he’s either a gay hitting on me, a christian, a pimp or an Alpha type So/Sx. Or maybe he’s part of that pyramidal shit a guy I know tried to draw me into the other day. Maybe all those combined.


----------



## mp2

Hm, since the last time I've posted, I think it's very safe to rule out 5, 6, and 9 as possible types. 4 seems likely, a second choice would be 7, followed by 3.


----------



## Darkbloom

Does everyone like my new signature? 

Changed it after almost having a panic attack in English class, we were talking about work and general adulting :fall:


(could be a 6 too though)

(no time to explain)


----------



## Brains

mp2 said:


> Hm, since the last time I've posted, I think it's very safe to rule out 5, 6, and 9 as possible types. 4 seems likely, a second choice would be 7, followed by 3.


4w5, second choice 7? :dry:
"I'm super introverted or really extraverted" (and just ruled out most of the typical middle ground types)



spicycucumber said:


> What do you mean by that?!


That every type has core things that define it, and they are there. Subtypes just lead to silliness like "I don't really feel like 4, but oh sp4 subtype doesn't look like a 4, yay" (caricaturing a bit, but you get the point).



Vixey said:


> Does everyone like my new signature?
> 
> Changed it after almost having a panic attack in English class, we were talking about work and general adulting :fall:
> 
> 
> (could be a 6 too though)
> 
> (no time to explain)


6/7 border seems good for you.


----------



## mp2

Brains said:


> 4w5, second choice 7? :dry:
> "I'm super introverted or really extraverted" (and just ruled out most of the typical middle ground types)


Progress is still progress roud: It was more that I was 95% sure of 4 and saw 7 as around 2% likely. Also, that I could be an extrovert that only thinks I'm an introvert. Even though I'm pretty sure I'm an introvert and score close to 100% on any MBTI/OCEAN or any other test, I just don't want to ignore the idea that I could be an extrovert that's only grown to closely resemble an introvert for different reasons. So, I could be right about being super introverted or I could be really extroverted and be completely oblivious to my extroversion. 

7 does seem safe to rule out though, so I'm thinking either 4w3 or 3w4.


----------



## Lunacik

@ElectricSlime
If I were to allocate any trust to Enneagram, I'd likely most identify with a 4 that doesn't belong to stereotypes. One of the problems with the descriptions is that it doesn't clarify that people are able to grow past these things: an insecure 4 might learn not to envy, for instance. Here's elaboration on the concept: Blog Entry


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> @ElectricSlime
> If I were to allocate any trust to Enneagram, I'd likely most identify with a 4 that doesn't belong to stereotypes. One of the problems with the descriptions is that it doesn't clarify that people are able to grow past these things: an insecure 4 might learn not to envy, for instance. Here's elaboration on the concept: Blog Entry


Except envy is the core of the type, its fixation. Which makes sense, considering its insecurities and psychological defenses. It’s like an Eight without anger, a Six without fear or a One without resentment. It makes no sense unless at the liberation levels. The growing past these fixations that you mention is under the concept of a solid integration.

I do believe one can “outgrow” his e-type and perhaps even modify his fixation following a special case of trauma, but that’d be so fucking rare that the possibility that one is simply rationalizing wishful thinking is more likely. Anyhow the fact that you yourself said that you relate to the lower end of the health levels kinda discards the explanation that you’re integrated. I take this as a confirmation that you’re not a Four. I told you, the similarities you see between you and Four are merely NF traits. Just like any INT will obviously consider Five for himself regardless of the fact that One, Six and Nine are equally valid types.

Edit: And my god that blog even solidifies my opinion that you’re attachment triad. I’m telling you


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> Except envy is the core of the type, its fixation. Which makes sense, considering its insecurities and psychological defenses. It’s like an Eight without anger, a Six without fear or a One without resentment. It makes no sense unless at the liberation levels. The growing past these fixations that you mention is under the concept of a solid integration.
> 
> I do believe one can “outgrow” his e-type and perhaps even modify his fixation following a special case of trauma, but that’d be so fucking rare that the possibility that one is simply rationalizing wishful thinking is more likely. Anyhow the fact that you yourself said that you relate to the lower end of the health levels kinda discards the explanation that you’re integrated. I take this as a confirmation that you’re not a Four. I told you, the similarities you see between you and Four are merely NF traits. Just like any INT will obviously consider Five for himself regardless of the fact that One, Six and Nine are equally valid types.





ElectricSlime said:


> Edit: And my god that blog even solidifies my opinion that you’re attachment triad. I’m telling you


Lol at this. 
And thanks for reading it...

 What type do you think I am (if you have something in mind already)?


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> Lol at this.
> And thanks for reading it...
> 
> What type do you think I am (if you have something in mind already)?


You don’t strike me as reactive so minus points for Six (but not closed to the possibility). R&H say that Sixes can mistake themselves for Fours due to their strong feelings and Eights if CP because of the attention to power dynamics and assertiveness. Your blog post is anti-three so that kinda makes it unlikely. Which leaves 9, which was the first conclusion reached. What did you think of those links about Nine I sent you btw ?

And lol, adventuring yourself in the thread I made at the peak of my emo phase last year. Can’t even bear to go back and read it, I’d mentally shut down in shame I think..


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> You don’t strike me as reactive so minus points for Six (but not closed to the possibility). R&H say that Sixes can mistake themselves for Fours due to their strong feelings and Eights if CP because of the attention to power dynamics and assertiveness. Your blog post is anti-three so that kinda makes it unlikely. Which leaves 9, which was the first conclusion reached. What did you think of those links about Nine I sent you btw ?


When I did the process of elimination by health levels I came out with 9, 5, and 4 being the only health levels I can really relate to. Since this is a gut, heart, and head, I interpreted it as being potentially significant. Adding to what I perceived as significance at the time is that someone else said these for me forever ago.
Edit: Come to think of it, no one's ever given me another type besides those, though different orders or as standalone.

Some of the 9 stuff you linked is me, some is not at all. It's a lot to read and I still have yet to get through all of it.
I hate the avoidance of confrontation, to me slipping out the back door is an act of betrayal. I prefer confronting, discussing, resolving. Confrontation is necessary for solutions. If you don't even try to fix things, I interpret it as if you don't even care enough to bother. It's along the same lines as ignoring which is one of the worst things you can do to me. I also like debate if it's amicable. A lot. It's one of my primary learning methods. This is learned, not myself. I don't like it if it provokes me though. I do walk away then. I just like discussing.

I do know I'm either sx or sx/so though.
I need so stuff for my health or I get lost in becoming whoever I'm in a relationship with or whatever. I merge with them to the point of ... kind of like, have you ever opened your mouth to say something and heard your parents come out? That, but with anyone I am close to and spending a lot of time around. I don't like "being" others that way. I lose confidence, etc. I mean, I literally do not remember my own original laugh. I still laugh like my brother (from childhood) and my ex (from years ago) to this day.




> And lol, adventuring yourself in the thread I made at the peak of my emo phase last year. Can’t even bear to go back and read it, I’d mentally shut down in shame I think..


Lol don't worry about it. If only you saw my phase...
but that was almost 13 years ago now.


----------



## Dangerose

Don't care about anything that doesn't make me feel alive

Or I would say makes me more alive, makes my life more, but in the end it's all about the feeling

Is that Se? sp? 7?

(I know lots of 9s say that but I think it comes from a different place than what 9s mean)

One reason I don't care about thinking functions, thinking feels like death  I mean it doesn't taste like anything, feeling functions add to life because as Ross Geller once said what is life without love, sending functions are the spice of life, N functions add layers, thinking functions just feel dry and dead, doesn't feel like it adds anything

(Really feel like ENFJs right btw, right now, haven't had luxury to explain things, just seem to suddenly have a bit if Internet, but one thing I was thinking is that Se hidden agenda makes so much sense, think it really is my hidden agenda, at all times what I want to do most is Se, often waiting for an excuse to suddenly apply force, no other function would make add much sense in that position as Se

(But also feel a bit Si seeking but it depends what Si is, no time to explain)

Been spending a lot of time with an I think ESFJ, could also be ENFJ but I think it would make sense we were one and the other, whichever way it is...we seem to get a long great until we start talking about 'philosophy', views on life, could be just different viewpoints but I think we start triggering each other's PoLRs?

And too complicated to go into why it would be me Ni and him Si or vice versa because I can see it either way, but I think that general dynamic makes sense

Anyways bulk of my uncollected type thoughts, can't emphasize enough how important that first thing is, was realizing today how I wouldn't care to be in a romantic relationship with someone who didn't want to be alive as much as me, I mean I don't think I could deal with apathy

Vibrancy and passion is the main thing that draws me to someone

Have many disclaimers but just imagine them, on phone so everything is annoying

All opinions welcome but don't expect me to respond soon or well, on 2gs technically but with almost no signal so


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> When I did the process of elimination by health levels I came out with 9, 5, and 4 being the only health levels I can really relate to. Since this is a gut, heart, and head, I interpreted it as being potentially significant. Adding to what I perceived as significance at the time is that someone else said these for me forever ago.


Still not sold on the typing by health descriptions but ok. The main shared element among your type considerations so far, has been that they're all withdrawn types. Of course that might be skewered by the bias of being an introverted JCF type, but it's still worth looking into imo. Going solely by harmonic triads (not expecting a perfect fit), I can't see reactive nor power seeking (also known as "rejection"). No strong opinion about competency but I'm not getting the usual vibe from your writing that I get from them (i.e somewhat professional and sometimes even technical, a desire to display a disposition expertise if you wish). Don't know you enough to talk about Positive Outlook.

Between head, gut and heart, which triad do relate to the *least* ? 



> Some of the 9 stuff you linked is me, some is not at all. It's a lot to read and I still have yet to get through all of it.


Then read! *whip strike sounds*



> I hate the avoidance of confrontation, to me slipping out the back door is an act of betrayal. I prefer confronting, discussing, resolving. Confrontation is necessary for solutions. If you don't even try to fix things, I interpret it as if you don't even care enough to bother. It's along the same lines as ignoring which is one of the worst things you can do to me.


I wholeheartedly agree.



> I also like debate if it's amicable. A lot. It's one of my primary learning methods. This is learned, not myself. I don't like it if it provokes me though. I do walk away then. I just like discussing.


Meh, I like ripping into people intellectually. I'm the kind of douche who sees it as a competition and an opportunity to teach the other, rather than learn. I learn separately and then see how far what I've learned goes by seeing its effects in the context of a debate.



> I do know I'm either sx or sx/so though.


I wouldn't know.



> I need so stuff for my health or I get lost in becoming whoever I'm in a relationship with or whatever. I merge with them to the point of ... kind of like, have you ever opened your mouth to say something and heard your parents come out? That, but with anyone I am close to and spending a lot of time around. I don't like "being" others that way. I lose confidence, etc. I mean, I literally do not remember my own original laugh. I still laugh like my brother (from childhood) and my ex (from years ago) to this day.


That sounds an awful lot like Nine's merging tendencies and an awful lot unlike Four. It's pretty standard attachment triad stuff: Embodying qualities perceived as good within the environment you're in contact with. In its worst form it can result in "mirroring" other people.



> Lol don't worry about it. If only you saw my phase...
> but that was almost 13 years ago now.


Lol, every day this forum reminds me of how much younger than you all I am.


----------



## mp2

Ok, I'm definitely a 9(slight second possibility of 4) but almost certainly a 9. I've been keeping records of every type I consider with MBTI, Enneagram, and Socionics for a while now in combination with mental state, mood, activity level, stress level, time and day of the week. There's very little chance I'm not a 9. 

But, it seems like I've rarely existed as an average 9, if I ever have at all. I've never heard of this with any type and their disintegration/integration paths from what I've gathered, and I don't know if it can even exist this way and would appreciate any feedback on the matter.

I think I only exist in alternating cycles between extreme disintegration towards six(as I do when I start to think I'm 5, 6, or 7 as I've done recently ) and extreme integration towards 3(as I do when I start to think I'm 2, 3, or 4 as I've also done recently). There's no middle ground. There never has been and there will most likely never be one. The time frames for each state are too erratic and unpredictable to try to quantify.


----------



## Darkbloom

Really odd to see myself as 6/7, I mean fairly relatable types I guess but it's odd, if I really am a 6/7 then I feel like I've been in major denial all this time or something 

But makes sense at the same time I think, especially as I'm getting older, used to not relate to head types at all, still don't really but feel like I'm used to...other people being afraid/thinking for me? 
Not that I didn't think at all, can definitely overthink some things, and well I'm a fearful person but somehow have a hard time really thinking in terms of fear and managing my fear, could be 7 influence though.
edit: not just about literal fear but like many 7-ish, but also maybe 6-ish things, hard to explain


----------



## Lunacik

@*mp2* ENTJ doesn't seem right. I have no alternative suggestions but you sound J. Vibe F.

-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - 




ElectricSlime said:


> Still not sold on the typing by health descriptions but ok.


Yeah, I'm not either. Never was, just have thought perhaps it could _potentially _be something. 



> The main shared element among your type considerations so far, has been that they're all withdrawn types. Of course that might be skewered by the bias of being an introverted JCF type, but it's still worth looking into imo.


JCF - Jung Cognitive Function?



> Going solely by harmonic triads (not expecting a perfect fit), I can't see reactive nor power seeking (also known as "rejection"). No strong opinion about competency but I'm not getting the usual vibe from your writing that I get from them (i.e somewhat professional and sometimes even technical, a desire to display a disposition expertise if you wish). Don't know you enough to talk about Positive Outlook.


Technical writing etc at times comes out of me, but it's not constant. I know what you're talking about, and I don't have that, no. I mean I can and do get on that wavelength, but I can't maintain it consistently. I lose my peace if I try, feel like a beach ball submerged under water needing to come to the surface.

I have "Inferior Se Issues" or ADD (one of the two) and it makes me an "absent minded" type. I have it very severely though, and struggle with normal jobs. I get yelled at for not noticing a thief that was right in front of my face, or struggle to retain sequential instructions, make mistakes in simple things, say something intelligent then walk into a pole, have intellectual conversation with my dad on the phone on my way out of the grocery store then accidentally walk entirely out of the parking lot instead of to my car, things like that. I'm environmentally oblivious and disconnected from the physical. That is the area where I relate to 5's incompetence / knowledge stuff the most. I'm intensely cognitive, absent minded, and people don't always understand I'm not incompetent until I actually talk to them, then they tell me things like how they can't keep up with me then I feel bad and try to show them they are smarter than they think, ways to draw out and highlight their strengths, etc.



> Between head, gut and heart, which triad do relate to the *least* ?


This is a good question. But which facet(s) of relating are you asking about?
I'm guessing in terms of Envy / Pride / etc.?



> Then read! *whip strike sounds*


Yessir! I'll stop gabbing so much and get to it! Haha.



> Meh, I like ripping into people intellectually. I'm the kind of douche who sees it as a competition and an opportunity to teach the other, rather than learn. I learn separately and then see how far what I've learned goes by seeing its effects in the context of a debate.


See, I like that, as long as it's not done with arrogance, just seeking fights, etc. If I think someone is simply being combative, I just don't want to waste my time. It's when it's not conducive to things because it's just a fight that I will walk away. Like, if every time I corner them with points they bring up some other left-field topic and have a defensive stance the entire time, I'm done. But if someone says something I usually challenge it to test it out and see if it stands in spite of my doubts and questions. Intelligent conversation is my love language, and I do mean also in a platonic sense. It's rare to find abstract thinkers who will discuss original critical thinking things with me.



> That sounds an awful lot like Nine's merging tendencies and an awful lot unlike Four. It's pretty standard attachment triad stuff: Embodying qualities perceived as good within the environment you're in contact with. In its worst form it can result in "mirroring" other people.


I do both. A lot.
I go to someone's house and "warming up" to the environment to me means "I have taken on your mannerisms, speech patterns, social style, etc." Sometimes mirroring is accidental though. It's honestly just a natural thing that happens for me and I really don't know how I'd be if not for that. I don't identify with having a "self" enough to actually be anything else...I mean there's just nothing there. I'm adaptive. I am intensely (and too much so) introspective and have certain consistencies, I do search for those consistencies, and I still am me at the core. I just don't have a strong personality in the sense of how "I" am and it would frustrate me to even think to figure out who I would be, because then the question is, "who _should _I be?" and I think because the external environment is ever-changing, so is what the internal ought to be. So it's an ever-changing and evolving answer all over again.

Among the consistencies would be that I enjoy analyzing, cognitively exploring, etc. with people. I crave intellectually stimulating conversations and at the end of the day those discussions about ideas is what I am after. People are my favorite puzzles (not to sound as if I don't care about them because I do), and I am not excluded. A constant pattern of feeling disconnected from the physical and entirely living in my head. That's..."me." Daily routines, etc. are an intense struggle for me. Everyday life is burdensome. I struggle. Hum drum mundane banal 9-5 existence is not life to me.

What this is all describing is also Fe though.
What you describe in 4 sounds more like Fi.



> Lol, every day this forum reminds me of how much younger than you all I am.


Lol enjoy it.



So yeah, I guess it's back to 9 being closest. Here is how I score on tests (most recently), but I know it's off:







I'm not a 2. I don't relate to 2 at all hardly.


----------



## Darkbloom

RGB said:


> I'm not a 2. I don't relate to 2 at all hardly.


Can you see it as your disintegration line?


----------



## Lunacik

Vixey said:


> Can you see it as your disintegration line?


I'd have to be an 8 or a 4 then...I can't see 8 being a core type for me, so it would have to be 4 which seems to be slowly being pushed out of the options.

At the end of the day I do see myself as relating to basically all the types in some ways so it's somewhat frustrating to even entertain the ideas. But I don't see myself in 2s health levels, don't need to be needed...

I'm probably a 9, assuming Enneagram possesses any merit at all.


----------



## Darkbloom

RGB said:


> I'd have to be an 8 or a 4 then...I can't see 8 being a core type for me, so it would have to be 4 which seems to be slowly being pushed out of the options.
> 
> At the end of the day I do see myself as relating to basically all the types in some ways so it's somewhat frustrating to even entertain the ideas. But I don't see myself in 2s health levels, don't need to be needed...
> 
> I'm probably a 9, assuming Enneagram possesses any merit at all.


I thought you were still typing as 4/considering it so I was curious!

Not sure about your type, think 9 sounds more right than other options, the way you talk about things and yourself doesn't feel 4 to me I think, could see 6w5 too maybe but don't know if you seem reactive like that...sorry, don't have much input to give


----------



## mp2

RGB said:


> @*mp2* ENTJ doesn't seem right. I have no alternative suggestions but you sound J. Vibe F.


Oh yeah ENTJ does seem like a stretch. I'm focusing more on EXXJ. Some sort of EXXJ type 9 sounds right. I've been considering ESTJ also, and that might explain more why I often type as XNFP or come across that way. So, I was mostly basing it on anxiety/confidence and other issues masking Te to a point where it's very hard to see. This definitely is a major stretch though so EXFJ seems very likely.


----------



## Lunacik

mp2 said:


> Oh yeah ENTJ does seem like a stretch. I'm focusing more on EXXJ. Some sort of EXXJ type 9 sounds right. I've been considering ESTJ also, and that might explain more why I often type as XNFP or come across that way. So, I was mostly basing it on anxiety/confidence and other issues masking Te to a point where it's very hard to see. This definitely is a major stretch though so EXFJ seems very likely.


Have you related at all to the stuff they lean toward 9 for me on?



Vixey said:


> I thought you were still typing as 4/considering it so I was curious!
> 
> Not sure about your type, think 9 sounds more right than other options, the way you talk about things and yourself doesn't feel 4 to me I think, could see 6w5 too maybe but don't know if you seem reactive like that...sorry, don't have much input to give


Hey, no, thanks for helping me roud:
I haven't closed 4 as an option but it seems like it would not be the lead. It was a good idea / input, so thanks :heart:


----------



## Lunacik

I'm trying to read the information from you @*ElectricSlime* but when I bounce it against myself it's just,

It's like taking a pizza, cutting it into slices, and trying to say which slice are you?
What do you mean which slice? I am pizza. We are all pizza. The ingredients just differ here or there.
Barnum Effect.

If those are merely outward manifestations of some kind of core (resulting in a B.E.), where's the core?

There's a little voice in the back of my mind / gut feeling saying don't walk away from it quite yet, but 9 seems like a trap door to catch anyone on their way out. If you don't want to fit into a slice, you can be the whole pizza.


----------



## BroNerd

The Penguin said:


> ENTP with a 5 fix is cool imo


Yes - I think that's actually what Eggman is as well. A 358 ENTP or 835 [when you look at the earlier games/cartoons].


----------



## Super Luigi

BroNerd said:


> Yes - I think that's actually what Eggman is as well. A 358 ENTP or 835 [when you look at the earlier games/cartoons].


In the games, yeah. Since he never talks in the games, he's a lot more interesting in those.

_Sonic X_ makes him 387.


----------



## BroNerd

The Penguin said:


> In the games, yeah. Since he never talks in the games, he's a lot more interesting in those.
> 
> _Sonic X_ makes him 387.


I agree with that. Comparing the Sonic Adventure 2 plotline in the game versus Sonic X - Eggman is more hyper and less secretive in Sonic X. He brings more comic relief.


----------



## Super Luigi

BroNerd said:


> I agree with that. Comparing the Sonic Adventure 2 plotline in the game versus Sonic X - Eggman is more hyper and less secretive in Sonic X. He brings more comic relief.


The only games I played were Sonic the Hedgehog 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic R, and an online flash game.

With the last one, you can play as Knuckles, Kreme, Sonic, or Tails.

Yeah, that's the thing about humor. It's hard to find anyone that's funny and deep.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> @ElecticSlime I am more and more convinced of ENFJ for you, only thing that doesn't really seem to make sense is the 1D Ti but I'm really in no position to judge Ti


Hm really ? So would that mean you see us as identicals..?

I've been doubting it lately. I bought Persona 5 and my free time has been consisting of playing that and chugging down beer. Alpha life. Addictive but it makes me feel like a useless piece of shit. Lack of social interaction hasn't been helping, and my family can't live up to that need. We share no interests at all. I need something to do. One of the few people disappointed that exams finish this week cause school served as both a purpose and an opportunity for interaction.

I agree with the Ti thing. I've been pretty much doing the Ti muscle for this thread for a while now. 

While never really being called out on being illogical and inconsistant in RL, I have been criticized at times for confusing definitions and neglecting precision (as well as details) in my speech. How much of that was underhanded sophism I wouldn't know. Also my relationship with maths that basically consists of " ME CURSE MATHS, HULK SMASH MATHS", as such I tend to fall back on math work, leave that stuff to my teammate and act as a team mobilizer and lyricist. Few things piss me off more than someone refusing to share the thought process for doing something in a certain way and refusing to let me in on how to do something. That's the best I can come up with for Ti seeking. Beyond that, I can be clear minded if I want to and have no problem pointing out inconsistencies in a reasoning and interpreting bodies of information but not sure I'd call it my natural way of interaction.



> 3w4 can account for elitism but you don't seem Alpha at all, why would you be Alpha?


Cause I like talking and am lazy ? I dunno. Definitely not a lighthearted person in general, it's something I've been criticized for. I also seem to lack the inherent democratism (contrast me and @BroNerd 's style of interaction for reference) and weird randomness of Alphas. That being said I can certainly be silly enough, one thing me and an Alpha friend liked to do in middle school was put up accents and play with intonation to make funny noises or dramatic absurd declarations. One girl liked to comment and judge our performance. 



> How would Ne lead make sense for you?


I'm a scattered, intellectual jack-of-all trades that likes to go against convention and give an evaluation of things' strengths and come up with way to use them (not really for productive ends, but just for whatever seems worth it).


----------



## mp2

I’m completely lost with Enneagram. If it hasn’t been obvious yet h: It’s mostly my fault though as I never come close to giving the whole picture or trying to explain myself and what not. 

I’ll start with trying to identify a core fear, something that motivates me. What this is, is that I’m terrified of what people think of me. I think if people know the real me, they’ll hate me. So I do whatever I can to hide the real me. To a point where no one has any idea who I am or what I really think, even the people who are closest to me in my life, who aren’t really all that close to me at all because I naturally hide who I am and divert from who I really am. 

This is so strong that it makes getting feedback on here difficult, because it reaches here to a great extent. I hide things, can become defensive and overreact, twist the same trait in a 100 different ways, and ignore things I don’t like about myself. And the main thing I don’t like about myself is that I’m so pathetically concerned with what others think of me and the way I respond to it. This goes back well into childhood.

So, I think this would rule out 4w5 and 5w4 for sure. As these types don’t appear to think this way. 4w3 seems like more of a possibility, but it makes 3w4 appear very likely. A 3w4 that doesn’t want anyone to know, even random strangers on the internet, how 3-ish I really am. It does seem likely that, well, well before I knew about Enneagram, my life revolved around preventing others from knowing about 3-ish traits. Which is something that adds a lot credence to the theory, for me(along with many other things like observing others)

This appears to be related to shame, and appears to make the prospect of being an incredibly unhealthy, pessimistic, lazy counter-shame 3the most likely type for me, as much as I hate to admit it to myself, let alone to anyone else. I don’t know if this would rule out 4w3, however. :thinking: 

So, there’s also 9. 9 is likely. I hate conflict and confrontation. I do my best to avoid it. But, I can’t. Life doesn’t work that way. So, when confronted with conflict, I either bury my head in the sand or completely overreact and threaten to murder the other party’s family. This is one thing that leads me to think I’m a 6. The fight/flight response, cp vs p 6 and all that. But 6 appears very unlikely. And, my thought process and motivation behind this appears to be much different from a 9’s motivation. I never numb out and I’m never concerned with internal harmony. External harmony is centered more on my lack of confidence and what others think of me. If I were to reach my natural level of confidence, let alone grow beyond that, I’d probably never be concerned with harmony nearly as much and it’s very possible I’d be an arrogant asshole at that point. 

So, this appears to point towards 3 again. It’s based on a neurotic need to be liked by others. To be recognized. Which, I loathe about myself and want to hide from others, and I’ve become quite skilled in hiding it from others. To a point where it's become _very_ difficult to stop doing it out of habit. 

So, then, in response to this, I do my best to avoid others and to avoid this fear from myself. With this, I start to think I’m either 5 or 7. That I become so afraid of intrusion from the outside world and just spend time researching things for protection. Then, it becomes so difficult, I try to avoid others and in an attempt to get out of my own head I attempt to avoid all pain and latch on to the outside world, pushing me to think I’m 7 or even 9 again. 

And then, I feel broken and different and afraid of abandonment and being misunderstood that I think I’m a 4 again. And then, I’ll act out and fear others could see these things in me and use them against me and I’ll start to consider 8. Then, from this point, it starts at the beginning of my post here and goes around again. 

So, with this, my best guess for me is 4w3 or 3w4. With MBTI, thinking realistically(which I rarely do here :blushed: ) I’m almost surely an ENFP with the possibility of being some sort of fucked up ESTJ a distant second option. 

So, what I’m asking, am I a 3 or not? :blushed:


----------



## ElectricSlime

mp2 said:


> I’m completely lost with Enneagram. If it hasn’t been obvious yet h: It’s mostly my fault though as I never come close to giving the whole picture or trying to explain myself and what not.
> 
> I’ll start with trying to identify a core fear, something that motivates me. What this is, is that I’m terrified of what people think of me. I think if people know the real me, they’ll hate me. So I do whatever I can to hide the real me. To a point where no one has any idea who I am or what I really think, even the people who are closest to me in my life, who aren’t really all that close to me at all because I naturally hide who I am and divert from who I really am.
> 
> This is so strong that it makes getting feedback on here difficult, because it reaches here to a great extent. I hide things, can become defensive and overreact, twist the same trait in a 100 different ways, and ignore things I don’t like about myself. And the main thing I don’t like about myself is that I’m so pathetically concerned with what others think of me and the way I respond to it. This goes back well into childhood.
> 
> So, I think this would rule out 4w5 and 5w4 for sure. As these types don’t appear to think this way. 4w3 seems like more of a possibility, but it makes 3w4 appear very likely. A 3w4 that doesn’t want anyone to know, even random strangers on the internet, how 3-ish I really am. It does seem likely that, well, well before I knew about Enneagram, my life revolved around preventing others from knowing about 3-ish traits. Which is something that adds a lot credence to the theory, for me(along with many other things like observing others)
> 
> This appears to be related to shame, and appears to make the prospect of being an incredibly unhealthy, pessimistic, lazy counter-shame 3the most likely type for me, as much as I hate to admit it to myself, let alone to anyone else. I don’t know if this would rule out 4w3, however. :thinking:
> 
> So, there’s also 9. 9 is likely. I hate conflict and confrontation. I do my best to avoid it. But, I can’t. Life doesn’t work that way. So, when confronted with conflict, I either bury my head in the sand or completely overreact and threaten to murder the other party’s family. This is one thing that leads me to think I’m a 6. The fight/flight response, cp vs p 6 and all that. But 6 appears very unlikely. And, my thought process and motivation behind this appears to be much different from a 9’s motivation. I never numb out and I’m never concerned with internal harmony. External harmony is centered more on my lack of confidence and what others think of me. If I were to reach my natural level of confidence, let alone grow beyond that, I’d probably never be concerned with harmony nearly as much and it’s very possible I’d be an arrogant asshole at that point.
> 
> So, this appears to point towards 3 again. It’s based on a neurotic need to be liked by others. To be recognized. Which, I loathe about myself and want to hide from others, and I’ve become quite skilled in hiding it from others. To a point where it's become _very_ difficult to stop doing it out of habit.
> 
> So, then, in response to this, I do my best to avoid others and to avoid this fear from myself. With this, I start to think I’m either 5 or 7. That I become so afraid of intrusion from the outside world and just spend time researching things for protection. Then, it becomes so difficult, I try to avoid others and in an attempt to get out of my own head I attempt to avoid all pain and latch on to the outside world, pushing me to think I’m 7 or even 9 again.
> 
> And then, I feel broken and different and afraid of abandonment and being misunderstood that I think I’m a 4 again. And then, I’ll act out and fear others could see these things in me and use them against me and I’ll start to consider 8. Then, from this point, it starts at the beginning of my post here and goes around again.
> 
> So, with this, my best guess for me is 4w3 or 3w4. With MBTI, thinking realistically(which I rarely do here :blushed: ) I’m almost surely an ENFP with the possibility of being some sort of fucked up ESTJ a distant second option.
> 
> So, what I’m asking, am I a 3 or not? :blushed:


Alternatively, you could be a mostly phobic Six disintegrating at Three and taking on negative elements of Nine as well.

You lack polish for a Three. Even the way you type (as in computer typing/writing style) seems more on the spontaneous and whatever-comes-to-mind side than a closely monitored filter that takes into account presentation and effect, which seems to happen unconsiously for a Three. I’d expect a more carefully crafted image from them than the mask games you take part in. Not because they couldn’t, but because it would work against their interest and defeat the objective of having that image confirmed and taken seriously by others. 

Just my two cents.


----------



## mp2

ElectricSlime said:


> Alternatively, you could be a mostly phobic Six disintegrating at Three and taking on negative elements of Nine as well.
> 
> You lack polish for a Three. Even the way you type (as in computer typing/writing style) seems more on the spontaneous and whatever-comes-to-mind side than a closely monitored filter that takes into account presentation and effect, which seems to happen unconsiously for a Three. I’d expect a more carefully crafted image from them than the mask games you take part in. Not because they couldn’t, but because it would work against their interest and defeat the objective of having that image confirmed and taken seriously by others.
> 
> Just my two cents.


That's a very good point. 6 does feel like the best option. I can tell, except when I go off the grid, that I'm somewhere on the 3-6-9 axis but it does appear likely that I'm a very phobic 6, and an sp 6 that approaches Woody Allen levels :blushed: From what I've gathered, no 6 is either completely phobic or counterphobic but it's always a spectrum? So, then, my best guess would be over 95% phobic. I probably need to learn to be just a itty bit more cp, but the idea scares me which only leads me more towards the phobic 6 idea and then thinking I'm a 9 or something. I do envy more counterphobic 6's, and all their  8-ish traits(which causes more image triad confusion )

I do admit too, that, 6 is hard to accept because of the way it's described and it's kind of a boring type. I like the idea of 9 better, being naturally laid back and going with the flow is so appealing. But it's mostly a way that I like to be seen. I'm not 9. And I'm probably no 3 either. I don't care all that much about being taken seriously, I always accept and even embrace that I won't be taken seriously :laughing: because that's just how I am. That does appear to mimic the image triad, 4 or 3, but 6 does appear likely. I think Ne dominant and 6 is why I keep doubting every single type I consider and then I'll doubt my doubt and rule out my doubt. 

I honestly just have a hard time accepting 6. I think being ENFP(probably IEE also) and 6 has a lot of fucked up traits that contradict each other. The need to seek new ideas and throw old things aside in comparison to being almost 100% distrustful of the outside world but needing support and security. :laughin: I think that was the only reason I've been considering 5 recently, because I've been such an isolated phobic sp 6 for so long and that seems like it can get all :disturbed: 

Thanks for the input though. You do offer a lot of great insight and I regret our last interaction and how I went overboard. I still feel really bad about it and don't want there to be any hard feelings :blushed:


----------



## Darkbloom

Wrote this in socionics so I'm asking about socionics in the post, but could it be 6?


> Don't usually think about having employees but suddenly thought about it and what if I had to fire someone, think I'd try to get them to quit or like start a fight a fight so they'd quit or so that at least I could be like "YOU'RE FIRED" and feel justified, easier than firing a friend, good or bad Fe? Bad Te/Se or something? Made me wonder about Fi PoLR because I feel like everything's so much easier in a heated atmosphere, like I have to break through this thing to be able to be harsh and unlikeable in certain kind of way and I'd rather create a situation where we hate each other than like...idk. But it's similar with some other things too, hard to explain, not sure if I'm explaining well, but hard to deal with subdued emotionally negative situations I guess???
> (not just with firing friends)






@mp2 what Slime said, and generally you don't strike me as a heart type but idk, everyone expresses things differently so I could be wrong but I'd be surprised. 
Doesn't go against 6, actually I associate that kind of thing with 6 the most.


----------



## Darkbloom

p/cp thing, feel like I'm 99.9% p if I'm a 6?
Feel like I can seem cp-ish but tbh wonder if it's sometimes on purpose-ish, I like the idea in a way, associate cp 6 influence with this face or something :skeleton: cute to me  
But think I do genuinely have cp-ish things, like have 8-ish things that feel too stupid to be actual 8 lol, but with literal fears I don't think I ever wanted to get over my fears and such, whether actual phobias or things like fear of rejection and such, not something I'd even want in a way, like someone else should like me and not reject me, not me, glad I care about what people think and such, not very conflicted when it comes to things like that for the most part except like...idk like I can be embarrassed about making decisions like dying my hair, always do it in secret and want no one to notice lol, wanted to dye my hair for years when I was younger (don't know if I even fully admitted it to myself) and I only did it after I made my mom talk me into it so I could tell dad it was her idea (and it was very subtle, and think even dad and grandma suggested it before and I said no), I always want to get people to talk me into things I already want. But that's just how I am, feels like it can't be any different, like that with many things.

edit: but I guess I act reactive-ish irl and very...idk could see myself looking like an 8 fixed cp 6.

Curious how I seem in terms of p/cp here?


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> In terms of tritype that would be a Nine with a 3w4 fix imo. I am not like that, although I would lie if I said I never had a disingenuous phase in the past. When I played basketball and was constantly swimming in black culture, for example.


To be clear, I don't quite go to that extreme at all, lol




> You took it down, but if only you knew the irony of bringing up that guy lol. He has his own seat on this thread.


That's awesome, lol. My life is utterly filled with coincidences lately though.


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> You took it down, but if only you knew the irony of bringing up that guy lol. He has his own seat on this thread.
> 
> Well probably because people go by dichotomy ? It's very MBTI-like after all. By test I'd agree that I tend to type XNTP because I'm lazy, prioritize truth over tact and am intellectual. After that it's just a matter of introversion vs extroversion. And since I have a strong social presence that does a lot of the talking yet have reclusive tendencies (not just time alone thing, literally a tendency to cut myself off from the world and not engage with it. Not really something I enjoy but a shadow that creeps over my existence, a self-imposed exile), it can tip either way depending on the day. Cognitive makeup would be another ball game. The INTP crowd isn't all that relatable to me here, with their feeling robotic, getting caught in stupid definitions pissing contests and reporting being passive people. Not much of a hard science guy either.
> 
> In your case it's just a club thing I believe. "Oh look a shy, creative and sensitive soul, INFX."
> 
> And yeah, nice to meet you as well :wink:





It has been before that the same person that says "Fe" also says "INFx"

Is intelligence a factor? Hmm.
Whatever energizes you I/E wise. ENTP and INFJ are both said to be closer to the middle of I/E anyways, so if definitely xNTP and in question of I/E, that alone indicates either I in denial or E often times. Not necessarily, but sometimes.
INTPs are great. I am frequently "robotic" and being thorough with definitions to ensure accuracy, etc. myself. We are often on the same wavelength with each other and such is one of the "default settings" within myself. But that is what I meant when I said I have to change frequencies sometimes because it's stifling to remain in that mode constantly.

Yeah, I'm not even shy lol...
In dichotomies I'm borderline F / T I've gone back and forth on it...(core Logical / Empathetic has a T lean but is close, and then I am Critical / Questioning facets), so if anything I'd be INTJ before INFP using strictly dichotomies.
In the books I read by descriptions, functions, etc. I am an F. Albeit a rather logic-oriented one due to upbringing and development/nurture. I also relate the most to the INFJ in general. The only reason I'm T at all in dichotomies is because I've reprogrammed my mind so much anyways. I digest life differently than I used to. (Again, I was raised and trained to place emphasis on T so all of this was prior to MBTI, though MBTI did help me to improve upon that initial foundation.)

I've discarded functions since this, and types aren't important anyways. "I use this function stack, but then if someone comes along and their primary is another stack but they do these other things over here that match the other function descriptions, that means they are just _developed_." Ok, so basically anyone can do anything and the entire system is pointless. (Correction: anything _except _for that Inferior Function, which your shadow inferior is easier than somehow in spite of it not being the case with the rest of the stack!) Seems to me more like a way of just making things fit...grouping certain normal human behaviors together and giving that group a name while I play connect the dots with figments of my imagination.

I don't see the reason I pursued curiosity for something that tells me what I already was in the beginning. I wasted my time--actually, I gained the most (permanent) growth by attempting to be more like a type I wasn't...thus, the thing everyone is criticized for was actually the most conducive, that was my reward for all this work I've put into studying type theory. At the end of the day who we are is largely defined by the choices we make. An INTP-like person is never going to be an ESFJ-like person, we've got limits and baselines. Being an Extrovert is never going to happen for me either, my subjective definition of "excessive" socialization (according to my threshold which is still somewhat adaptable itself) will always be a struggle for me. But life demands things from us and failure to adapt results in consequences.


----------



## ElectricSlime

mp2 said:


> That's a very good point. 6 does feel like the best option. I can tell, except when I go off the grid, that I'm somewhere on the 3-6-9 axis


Yes, I believe that as well.



> I do admit too, that, 6 is hard to accept because of the way it's described and it's kind of a boring type. I like the idea of 9 better, being naturally laid back and going with the flow is so appealing.


I personally think Six is a cool type as a whole, once you've broken through the SJ office stereotypes. It's perhaps less romantic than both 5 and 4 in terms of the idea behind it (though there's assuredly something romantic to be done about existential fear, human embodiment and the idea of faith if one wants to) , but it's also much better to be IRL than either of those types who seem to have a really shit time. Consequently, I think of those three types as those that have the hardest time. From most shitty to less shitty: 4 > 5 > 6



> I think Ne dominant and 6 is why I keep doubting every single type I consider and then I'll doubt my doubt and rule out my doubt.


Under that reasoning I'd be a mess as well lol, but I can assure you that I don't experience nearly the same kind of musical chairs syndrome as you do. But maybe you have something to say about that.

On that note I think your mental processes are closer to Six than either Seven or Five, with a lot of slinging back and forth between inner and outside guidance: 



WotE said:


> Type Five responds by retreating from life and reducing their per sonal needs. Fives believe that they are too frail and insubstantial to safely survive in the world. The only safe place is in their minds, so they stockpile whatever they believe will help them survive until they are ready to rejoin the world. Fives also feel that they do not have enough to "bring to the table" to meet the demands of practical life. They retreat until they can learn something or master some skill that would allow them to feel safe enough to come out of hiding.
> 
> In Type Six, the central type of this Triad (the type positioned on the equilateral triangle), attention and energy are directed both inward and outward. Sixes feel anxious inside, and so launch into external ac tion and anticipation of the future like Sevens. But having done so, they eventually become afraid that they will make mistakes and be pun ished or overwhelmed by demands on them, so like Fives, they "jump back inside." They get scared by their feelings again, and the reactive cycle continues, with anxiety causing their attention to bounce around like a Ping-Pong ball.
> 
> Type Seven, by contrast, charges into life and appears to be afraid of nothing. It at first seems strange that Sevens are in a Triad whose types are afflicted by fear since they are so outwardly adventurous. Despite appearances, however, Sevens are full of fear, but not of the outside world: they are afraid of their inner world—of being trapped in emotional pain, grief, and especially feelings of anxiety. So they escape into activity and anticipation of activity. Sevens unconsciously attempt to keep their minds occupied so that their underlying anxieties and hurts will not surface.


There, good stuff.



> I honestly just have a hard time accepting 6. I think being ENFP(probably IEE also) and 6 has a lot of fucked up traits that contradict each other.


I don't, especially for IEE. It's a negativist type that is part of the most stable quadra (Delta). The most universal type of the Enneagram is obviously Six, and 6w7 being a quintessential comedian (or even sad clown in some cases), I think a lot of Ne leads would be that type. 6w5 would be less common but still a thing for both ILE and IEE, but probably more in ILE.

6w7 would be fun and novelty but with a safety net and a stronger superego. Not unlike the Social Seven described by Chestnut.



> The need to seek new ideas and throw old things aside in comparison to being almost 100% distrustful of the outside world but needing support and security. :laughin: I think that was the only reason I've been considering 5 recently, because I've been such an isolated phobic sp 6 for so long and that seems like it can get all :disturbed:


I think your mental process is much closer to 6w7 tbh, you ramble and tend to throw ideas in all directions without necessarily thinking them through, testing their values through others' reactions, you've also extensively considered 7 at several points and talked about novelty. You're supposed to relate to both your wings anyway, but I see w7 edging out with you. Paradigm, a socially introverted 6w7, would probably agree with me there.



> Thanks for the input though. You do offer a lot of great insight and I regret our last interaction and how I went overboard. I still feel really bad about it and don't want there to be any hard feelings :blushed:


Eh it's fine. For once you seemed genuine and serious about making progress and asking for feedback, so it seemed worth it to help!


----------



## ElectricSlime

Vixey said:


> p/cp thing, feel like I'm 99.9% p if I'm a 6?
> Feel like I can seem cp-ish but tbh wonder if it's sometimes on purpose-ish, I like the idea in a way, associate cp 6 influence with this face or something :skeleton: cute to me
> But think I do genuinely have cp-ish things, like have 8-ish things that feel too stupid to be actual 8 lol, but with literal fears I don't think I ever wanted to get over my fears and such, whether actual phobias or things like fear of rejection and such, not something I'd even want in a way, like someone else should like me and not reject me, not me, glad I care about what people think and such, not very conflicted when it comes to things like that for the most part except like...idk like I can be embarrassed about making decisions like dying my hair, always do it in secret and want no one to notice lol, wanted to dye my hair for years when I was younger (don't know if I even fully admitted it to myself) and I only did it after I made my mom talk me into it so I could tell dad it was her idea (and it was very subtle, and think even dad and grandma suggested it before and I said no), I always want to get people to talk me into things I already want. But that's just how I am, feels like it can't be any different, like that with many things.
> 
> edit: but I guess I act reactive-ish irl and very...idk could see myself looking like an 8 fixed cp 6.
> 
> Curious how I seem in terms of p/cp here?


You know, you contradict yourself a lot when it comes to those things. One second you describe yourself as a defenseless creature and another as pushy and demanding. I'd say the first part seems more believable to me, but I dunno how much of that is an image. Overall you seem more phobic.

FWIW, I think your CP instances (confrontations to put it plainly) here would probably not happen as often if you didn't have Nissa to automatically back you up (which is a phenomena I've observed in some Sixes IRL). I think the same could apply to her but to a lesser extent than you. I'm mostly taking a stab in the dark here though.


----------



## Super Luigi

> Despite appearances, however, Sevens are full of fear, but not of the outside world: they are afraid of their inner world—of being trapped in emotional pain, grief, and especially feelings of anxiety. So they escape into activity and anticipation of activity. Sevens unconsciously attempt to keep their minds occupied so that their underlying anxieties and hurts will not surface.


Yeah, I think I'm a 7.


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> Yeah, I think I'm a 7.


You have way too much superego to be a Seven.

I think they’d get in conflict with you, especially when you talked about work environment and started going on about how people shouldn’t do X and Y.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> You have way too much superego to be a Seven.
> 
> I think they’d get in conflict with you, especially when you talked about work environment and started going on about how people shouldn’t do X and Y.


Yes, because any opinion about what should or shouldn't be is automatically superego.

You do that a lot more than I do. I don't appreciate you constantly insisting that I have a lot of ego, when we've hardly even talked about anything of substance.


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> Yes, because any opinion about what should or shouldn't be is automatically superego.
> 
> You do that a lot more than I do. I don't appreciate you constantly insisting that I have a lot of ego, when we've hardly even talked about anything of substance.


You’re preachy and moralizing, that’s what I’m getting at. Sevens are not, they hate that. The fact that it appeared as soon as you put a bit of yourself out there and without “talking” about something of substance is telling by itself.

Brains has been pointing out the flagrant dissonance between your self-image and your honest self as well. I will say though, you do make people walk on eggshells to not hurt that sensitivity for a supposed 873.

But do tell us why you’re triple ID when you were shitting all over that sort of people not too long ago, that shouldn’t be an issue for a lusty Eight.


----------



## Super Luigi

ElectricSlime said:


> You’re preachy and moralizing, that’s what I’m getting at. Sevens are not, they hate that. The fact that it appeared as soon as you put a bit of yourself out there and without “talking” about something of substance is telling by itself.
> 
> Brains has been pointing out the flagrant dissonance between your self-image and your honest self as well. I will say though, you do make people walk on eggshells to not hurt that sensitivity for a supposed 873.
> 
> But do tell us why you’re triple ID when you were shitting all over that sort of people not too long ago, that shouldn’t be an issue for a lusty Eight.


I'm not preachy or moralizing. That proves you don't know me. I hate that, too.

Maybe some people are too reckless with their words.

I gave a negative description, yes, that was how I viewed it.

I'm not talking about tritype, I'm talking about my head fix.

Why can't I just talk with you, without you making it into some sort of fight/argument?


----------



## ElectricSlime

The Penguin said:


> I'm not preachy or moralizing. That proves you don't know me. I hate that, too.
> 
> Maybe some people are too reckless with their words.
> 
> I gave a negative description, yes, that was how I viewed it.
> 
> I'm not talking about tritype, I'm talking about my head fix.
> 
> Why can't I just talk with you, without you making it into some sort of fight/argument?


A “head fix” only exists within tritype theory. If you’re not talking tritype, then you’re talking core dude.

As for my being preemptively belligerent, it wouldn’t be the first time you seek only input that will be pleasant to hear. Reinforcing that impression, just recently you avoided replying to both me and Brains’ questioning of you going from triple super ego and SO dom to SO last as well as triple ID. One would expect someone on a mistype thread to be completely willing to look at himself honestly and to appreciate the most honest of feedback as well. Heck, responding to the sole feedback would be a start.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* d'you still think against 2? surely 'caring is a sign of weakness' is quite 2 though (like it sounds like the opposite of 2 but it's also kinda what 2 is all about? at least I think the way I think about it is 2, ashamed of caring about other people and I'd rather people think I don't care at all, so they would never feel sorry for me)
> 
> Anyways thanks for finding that, not trying to nitpick  and the things you were saying about 6 for Vixey probably apply to me above too XD


At this point, no, not really against it. I think it fits. I do sometimes wonder if you could be 7, like whenever you're like, "I'm so bored...Things are boring around here, feel like I'm the only bored person on the planet!" :laughing: feels 7-ish or Ne-ish, and I don't know how to tell the difference with you or people with contradicting traits (It's like the same idea of being Fe and 4, kind of contradictory because 4 (as a whole) is more Fi-ish authenticity-based), like some here would say that means you'd have to be an ENFP 2...? I don't know, but someone like spicycucumber showed up, and she felt very 7 right away (in a way you don't), but also because probably has a MBTI type that fits with 7 too, enhancing that impression. So, think you're kind of confusing because of that, but still think you're a NF type of some sort. 

Hmm, just that I find it not 2 because you would refer to it as a sign of weakness, which sounds more like something an 8 would say actually (though, I don't think you're an 8), but then there's that arrow to 8 too, and with 2 being a power-triad type. It is a little strange that you say again, as a 2, that you'd rather have people think you don't care at all, like don't 2s want people to know they care, and that's part of their image? Let me do this for you, now love me in return! I deserve your love! (issue of pride). I think for that reason 2s are quite selfish underneath their giving nature too (i.e. giving to get), and I guess that is image-related with how you word it too (how you want it to appear to people), and to me, 9s are a lot more selfless (often to their own detriment) than 2s are, despite being known as the giving type.


----------



## Darkbloom

Don't like talking about people, especially since I don't know anyone's type at this point, but pretty sure my dad is an Alpha, not sure what else he would be, definitely merry-ish and Ti and not Se, and he's not a crazy random space elevator person, has a calm and dignified disposition mostly and he dresses quite nice, remember people thinking he's gay a couple of times 

(but well he was the least cool person when he was in high school)
(and well he is nerdy)


----------



## Lunacik

@*ElectricSlime* I can't help but be curious. Can I take you up on the offer for more info on Instinctive vs Head triads? Feeling was definitely last (since it was about shame and identity), but I was on the fence with the other two. If not I understand.


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> @*ElectricSlime* I can't help but be curious. Can I take you up on the offer for more info on Instinctive vs Head triads? Feeling was definitely last (since it was about shame and identity), but I was on the fence with the other two.


Yes, once you've provided your opinion about what type you think I am :wink:

Never read a book about Jungian functions before, so I'm curious about someone who's digged further than superficial internet resources.


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> Yes, once you've provided your opinion about what type you think I am :wink:
> 
> Never read a book about Jungian functions before, so I'm curious about someone who's digged further than superficial internet resources.


Sure. I'll spare you the embarrassment of thanking year old posts during phases and ask you to link me to something to read, plox o3o

I already see Fe though.

Edit: Why are you now questioning ENTP anyways btw?


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> At this point, no, not really against it. I think it fits. I do sometimes wonder if you could be 7, like whenever you're like, "I'm so bored...Things are boring around here, feel like I'm the only bored person on the planet!" :laughing: feels 7-ish or Ne-ish, and I don't know how to tell the difference with you or people with contradicting traits (It's like the same idea of being Fe and 4, kind of contradictory because 4 (as a whole) is more Fi-ish authenticity-based), like some here would say that means you'd have to be an ENFP 2...? I don't know, but someone like spicycucumber showed up, and she felt very 7 right away (in a way you don't), but also because probably has a MBTI type that fits with 7 too, enhancing that impression. So, think you're kind of confusing because of that, but still think you're a NF type of some sort.


yesss, it's really confusing :frustrating: and yeah, basically this is my same opinion about my type haha

(About 7, yeah, the boredom, but I also think I'm just...extremely extroverted? like one of the first things I read about MBTI was that extroversion requires a lot of (non-sexual) arousal, really relate to that, think I'm also high-temp in that time goes really quickly for me and I need every moment to be filled with things

But I don't run away from my feelings and I think that's anti-7, idk, feel like I'm all heart



> Hmm, just that I find it not 2 because you would refer to it as a sign of weakness, which sounds more like something an 8 would say actually (though, I don't think you're an 8), but then there's that arrow to 8 too, and with 2 being a power-triad type


.


found my response, would pretty much agree with it:



> I said it's worse to be seen as caring more, that I come across as caring less and that it does bother me anyways, but I still try to XD
> 
> Not sure if it's un-2ish though, think it's kinda an objective fact, indifference is a 'stronger' position - who wins the battle, person who cares if their leg gets cut off or person who doesn't care?
> But I think it's a 2ish thing in the context of like...not wanting to come off as the person who loves more.
> I always kinda am the person who cares more no matter the relationship, and I think I go too far to try to back away from that.
> But I also don't like it when people think I care a lot about other things, always try to downplay how much something means to me - wouldn't necessarily say it's that I'm afraid people will take it away from me, I don't think people are usually sadistic like that, but...I don't like how it makes me look, it just makes me uncomfortable. Like it happens a lot that I'm really excited about doing something and then people cancel it because they didn't think I wanted to





> It is a little strange that you say again, as a 2, that you'd rather have people think you don't care at all, like don't 2s want people to know they care, and that's part of their image?


supposedly, don't think I'm like that though 
I mean, I think I was thinking about all my secret Petrarchian obsessions with people, always related to like 'loving from a distance' (always enjoyed the quote 'if I love you what business is it of yours?', possibly sx-last?
but in general my assumption is that people don't love me as much as I love them, I mean any people, my family or my friends, would rather be seen as rejecting them than them rejecting me, doesn't work because I'm too clingy XD so if I seem like I love them a lot, that...doesn't work, I want to pretend to be as indifferent as other people are, that's a very common theme in my life

I don't think of caring as a weakness in 8ish sense like 'oh no the weakness now I won't be able to be such a good general' XD



> Let me do this for you, now love me in return! I deserve your love! (issue of pride).


one of the worst things I remember myself doing was along these lines but it was only once, was really upset that my friend wasn't keeping in contact with me and ended up saying horrible things about her and trying to guilt her about things I'd given her in the past, don't want to be specific but it was all extremely cruel and unfair

said it before but I don't usually feel like people need or want my help, so this is unrelatable about 2



> I think for that reason 2s are quite selfish underneath their giving nature too (i.e. giving to get), and I guess that is image-related with how you word it too (how you want it to appear to people), and to me, 9s are a lot more selfless (often to their own detriment) than 2s are, despite being known as the giving type.


Yes, agree strongly


----------



## Darkbloom

@mistakenforstranger yeah that makes sense to me too, thanks)
I don't think I feel like a head type.


Relate to what Nissa said about caring, think it can be 2+maybe 8 influence outside of just disintegration line?
Would say it could be power type-y but think it's also a universal thing, and then there are definitely plenty of 2s who are very stereotypically loving and caring and always openly care too much.
Could it maybe be Se vs Si valuing? (or at least a bit related to it?)


(so tired :sleepytime: )


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> At this point, no, not really against it. I think it fits. I do sometimes wonder if you could be 7, like whenever you're like, "I'm so bored...Things are boring around here, feel like I'm the only bored person on the planet!" :laughing: feels 7-ish or Ne-ish, and I don't know how to tell the difference with you or people with contradicting traits (It's like the same idea of being Fe and 4, kind of contradictory because 4 (as a whole) is more Fi-ish authenticity-based), like some here would say that means you'd have to be an ENFP 2...? I don't know, but someone like spicycucumber showed up, and she felt very 7 right away (in a way you don't), but also because probably has a MBTI type that fits with 7 too, enhancing that impression. So, think you're kind of confusing because of that, but still think you're a NF type of some sort.


yesss, it's really confusing :frustrating: and yeah, basically this is my same opinion about my type haha

(About 7, yeah, the boredom, but I also think I'm just...extremely extroverted? like one of the first things I read about MBTI was that extroversion requires a lot of (non-sexual) arousal, really relate to that, think I'm also high-temp in that time goes really quickly for me and I need every moment to be filled with things

But I don't run away from my feelings and I think that's anti-7, idk, feel like I'm all heart



> Hmm, just that I find it not 2 because you would refer to it as a sign of weakness, which sounds more like something an 8 would say actually (though, I don't think you're an 8), but then there's that arrow to 8 too, and with 2 being a power-triad type


.


found my response, would pretty much agree with it:



> I said it's worse to be seen as caring more, that I come across as caring less and that it does bother me anyways, but I still try to XD
> 
> Not sure if it's un-2ish though, think it's kinda an objective fact, indifference is a 'stronger' position - who wins the battle, person who cares if their leg gets cut off or person who doesn't care?
> But I think it's a 2ish thing in the context of like...not wanting to come off as the person who loves more.
> I always kinda am the person who cares more no matter the relationship, and I think I go too far to try to back away from that.
> But I also don't like it when people think I care a lot about other things, always try to downplay how much something means to me - wouldn't necessarily say it's that I'm afraid people will take it away from me, I don't think people are usually sadistic like that, but...I don't like how it makes me look, it just makes me uncomfortable. Like it happens a lot that I'm really excited about doing something and then people cancel it because they didn't think I wanted to





> It is a little strange that you say again, as a 2, that you'd rather have people think you don't care at all, like don't 2s want people to know they care, and that's part of their image?


supposedly, don't think I'm like that though 
I mean, I think I was thinking about all my secret Petrarchian obsessions with people, always related to like 'loving from a distance' (always enjoyed the quote 'if I love you what business is it of yours?', possibly sx-last?
but in general my assumption is that people don't love me as much as I love them, I mean any people, my family or my friends, would rather be seen as rejecting them than them rejecting me, doesn't work because I'm too clingy XD so if I seem like I love them a lot, that...doesn't work, I want to pretend to be as indifferent as other people are, that's a very common theme in my life

I don't think of caring as a weakness in 8ish sense like 'oh no the weakness now I won't be able to be such a good general' XD



> Let me do this for you, now love me in return! I deserve your love! (issue of pride).


one of the worst things I remember myself doing was along these lines but it was only once, was really upset that my friend wasn't keeping in contact with me and ended up saying horrible things about her and trying to guilt her about things I'd given her in the past, don't want to be specific but it was all extremely cruel and unfair

said it before but I don't usually feel like people need or want my help, so this is unrelatable about 2



> I think for that reason 2s are quite selfish underneath their giving nature too (i.e. giving to get), and I guess that is image-related with how you word it too (how you want it to appear to people), and to me, 9s are a lot more selfless (often to their own detriment) than 2s are, despite being known as the giving type.


Yes, agree strongly

Thanks for your opinion!


----------



## Aiwass

@mistakenforstranger One day, I will create a type me thread on the enneagram forum (not now because I am lazy) and I want one short analysis from you :crazy:
Your opinions and insights on types are interesting


----------



## ElectricSlime

mistakenforstranger said:


> Well, I do think a lot of it has to do with 5-wing, as I said above, but whenever I see cp-6s at work I don't really see them present a strong logical argument, but twist things and use intimidation (based in their own fear, which they are unaware of, and project onto others), and you seem more truth-based (which again would be due to 5-wing, and I don't think 6s are outside of searching for the "truth" either, often their main preoccupation), but like I see cp-6s treating it more as a game, like I saw this recently, and this guy strikes me as a 6 here (likely Social 6), using those type of cp-6 tactics on Peterson (I believe Peterson is a 1 + Ti-valuing, with regards to precision. From everything I've seen on Peterson too definitely Ti-valuing) here, like at 0:40, "Was that very individual of you?...Let's get precise here." (mocking tone), and even later with 5:40...(Although, just getting caught up to speed on your interaction just now with Penguin, where this may apply now, but does seem a bit different from how I've seen it play out, because it seems more about integrity for you?)


I think what's happening there is more about that black dude being an unintelligent douchebag than about him being a Six. Definitely not how 2Pac and Eminem would carry themselves in such situations (Both So/Sx).

Don't know about the integrity part, don't think it's an area I pay all that much attention to in general. Not sure what you mean by that. And about Penguin, it was more me being plainly condescending than using a "tactic" or whatever. I only do it when I feel people aren't responsive in a satisfying way and that they have it coming. Definitely haven't done that with most people here.




> I've even been questioning if there could be presence of a "1-fix" in you lol, as :crazy: that sounds, because you could explain "8-fix" from cp-6, or that "1-fix" I'm possibly seeing may also be the super-ego type, but you do seem a bit more "controlled" than 8-fix. Anyways, think you could explain all your fixes, which is 368 at this point (right?), by cp-6, if you wanted to.


Don't think I have nearly enough conscientiousness to qualify as all that One-like lol. I do have the tendency to want to directly change my environment which comes across as pushy and me imposing my opinion on people. It's a bad trait of mine. I've seen it associated with Rationality in Socionics, whereas Irrationals are more laid back and give less of a shit.



> I think Malcolm X might be a 368 tritype.


We're quite similar so that would make sense. Same kind of accusatory and criticizing attitude, though I'd bet I have a better sense of humor and I smile more.



> I'm still curious in your interest in Byron and if you see yourself in him.


I identify more with the Byronic Hero (look up the TVtropes page, almost all the characteristics apply) than Byron himself. But we still share a very facetious attitude that contrasts with biting sarcasm, an interest in the foreign and esoteric (as well as religion), a desire to impact conventions and subvert the status quo, a fondness for the literary and imaginary as well as a lonely wanderer self perception. His game of writing a horror story on a rainy day with Shelley and his sister, also seems like the kind of shit I could pull when bored somewhere. Our main difference is that he's a fuckboy and I'm not regardless of how flirtatious I may appear to some.

Edit: thought of more but tired of typing so I'll hold back for now



> I've been meaning to get back to you on that. Things have been very :crazy: this month, and haven't had much time to participate on forum, and trying to stay off Internet more and be more active in real-world... :fall: Anyways, my book on Romantic poetry was pretty slim on Byron's life, so I did a little reading of a biography that came up on my Nook (I mean, I can get about 140 pages for free, which covers childhood and such), and see 4 again more clearly, especially that hateful/envious sx-4, as opposed to 7 (though, he certainly had a lot of issues with gluttony later in life). Will reply again later with quotes I found, and will post it in thread on Character typing.


Take your time. 



> As far as MBTI/Socionics typing, I'm with Nissa Nissa on seeing you as not 1D Ti, like what you said earlier, you notice the apparent contradiction in Nissa Nissa's and your typings (as well as your own typing), and I wouldn't even think a EIE would consider that;


That's pushing it lol, any person with a IQ above 90 would have thought of something so basic.



> of course, pointing out inconsistencies can be due to 6 too, but I see it as a strength of yours, and therefore, why your Ti does not seem 1D:


Fair enough, Gulenko mentions that EIE are quite attentive to that however since they look for rational Ti in their environment.

I've seen user strrrng, a self typed IEI who once considered LSI apparently, say that sociotypes have higher standards of what happens in regard to their suggestive function since they're looking for their dual. In the absence of a dual, a type may try to integrate and satisfy the needs of his suggestive function by himself instead. How much credit there is to that, I really don't know. Anyway, usually one should be able to discern the suggestive function in most of what a person says since it's directly tied to his base program or something. And I really don't mention Si all that much if we look back ever since I first arrived on this site.

But I agree that I feel capable of providing Ti in my interactions, although the famous "pedantic" Ti leads you were talking about do seem to have criticisms to address me sometimes when we interact in that area.



> Also, don't think being bad at math would necessarily mean Ti-inferior either. Ti-doms probably would be good at it, or better than someone who is inferior Ti (generally speaking), but don't think it's a guarantee. I posted this before to you, but do you see yourself in this? I think it's pretty true for inferior Ti.


Obviously lol, it was more about the way I approach an area in which I struggle with in a Ti way that I feel was relevant.

I used to be fairly good at maths until late high school where it became less intuitive guessing and patterns and more rote memorizing. My stubborn resistance to subject myself to that torture was what cost me 

The description as a whole can be relatable, the only thing that really isn't is the part about being easily tricked and gullible through logic. Fuck that.



> Does seem Fe-valuing.


At this point the only non-merry type I'd probably consider is LIE, but my subdued interest in money matters and general laziness/disorganization point away from it.



> I mean, that's pretty ENTP-ish (holistically speaking) too.


Well yeah but not only. It applies to Lord Henry from Dorian Gray, total EIE. Probably to some SLEs too I'm sure.

Besides, it's only a facet of myself !



> And yeah, agree, not pedantic enough like other INTPs.


Right.




> Want to fill me in on the 9-fix that you saw in me? :wink: If I'm being honest, I think 9w1 would be the second type I would consider for myself, regardless of fixes. I'm definitely not denying there being a strong 9 element to me (especially more so in real-life; think I may seem more 1-ish on here). Though, I do see problems with it as my core too, especially compared to other 9s I know. They're much (seemingly) happier. :sadcloud:


Oh, right. I kinda forgot some of what I wished to say. The big lines was about the notion of "social role" brought up in Wisdom of the Enneagram and how you aligned better with the Nine ish one than the "misunderstood outsider" of the Four one. That impression was reinforced by how Penguin automatically went for you to sugarcoat input at the time, it's the impression people have of you.

There's also the fact that I've never actually seen you try to emphasize how misunderstood and unique (no not in the creepy bug/marilyn/E.T way necessarily) you are in your standing compared to others like I see in some Fours. I see that taking a backseat to you preserving harmony and avoiding separation, which seems to be your main approach (much more than the perfectionism and critical stance of One). Not denying that your inner life is Four-like btw, but the social role and approach you assume in the theory is not predominantly Four ish. Your 3000 posts thread btw was way too happy-feely sweet for me btw  The strong presence of that element that I see in you, coupled with the fact that I'm obviously more critical than you are despite not even typing as 1 fixed, makes me at least lean 9 fixed.


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> Sure. I'll spare you the embarrassment of thanking year old posts during phases and ask you to link me to something to read, plox o3o


Lol, well you could start with my first thread of INTP vs ENTP from when I first joined and wasn't as cynical and bitter as I am now. It gives a strong ENTP and E3 vibe IIRC. 



> I already see Fe though.


Really ? While almost surely Fe in Socionics, one of my main interrogations in MBTT is me relating more to the Fi aspect of authenticity and being fed up with the excessive social harmony preservation of Fe. What did you see as Fe in me ?



> Edit: Why are you now questioning ENTP anyways btw?


Bunch of reasons for socionics but let's stick to MBTI between each other.

For the most part it's about:

-What I just mentioned above

-Not being as random and socially weird/colorful than what Ne doms tend to be described as. I take myself too seriously for that.

-Being a more serious than goofy person as a whole, although I shit between the two fairly easily.

-I don't run all over the place with a gazillion of half baked ideas and possibilities.

-Others have mentioned me as being more Ni ish than Ne ish on here. (although more in a Socionics sense I think, hardly relate to the uber planner disposition of Jungian Ni).

That seems enough at the moment.


----------



## ElectricSlime

@Nissa Nissa @mistakenforstranger @RGB

I think a part of what's going on here is that I'm obviously attached to both my logical reasoning abilities as well as my emotional sensitivity and introspective wisdom in terms of my ubermensch self perception. If I had to choose about which I'd prefer to be seen as in public and emphasize, it would be the first. On the other hand, my mom who sees me in private seems to have no issue perceiving me as the kind NF-like figure described in some Pisces zodiac profiles. But then again, it's my mom so obviously she's looking to see the empathy and sensitive characteristics in my person lol. Most people would disagree with her, girls who have known me at close distance and seen my more romantic side might agree.


----------



## Mr Castelo

@mistakenforstranger

9s somehow being happier than other types is a shitty stereotype, surely neglecting yourself is not one of the most pleasant experiences. Though in average, yeah, most _look_ like they're untroubled or believe themselves to be that way even if that's not the case.

@ElectricSlime

I don't have much to say on your Socio-type as I've paused my study on Socionics for now, but that's not the first time I see someone who previously typed as NTP questioning their type due to not being "goofy" or "random" enough. Personally, I think that your emotional states and sense of humour don't have that much to do with your MB type. That's one more of MBTI's limitations, as the Big 5 sort of covers that with the Neuroticism factor (and my impression is that you score relatively high on that one). I also can't see you as anything else but a Thinker, your approach to logic and reason seems fairly impersonal.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Mr Castelo said:


> @mistakenforstranger
> 
> 9s somehow being happier than other types is a shitty stereotype, surely neglecting yourself is not one of the most pleasant experiences. Though in average, yeah, most _look_ like they're untroubled or believe themselves to be that way even if that's not the case.
> 
> @ElectricSlime
> 
> I don't have much to say on your Socio-type as I've paused my study on Socionics for now, but that's not the first time I see someone who previously typed as NTP questioning their type due to not being "goofy" or "random" enough. Personally, I think that your emotional states and sense of humour don't have that much to do with your MB type. That's one more of MBTI's limitations, as the Big 5 sort of covers that with the Neuroticism factor (and my impression is that you score relatively high on that one). I also can't see you as anything else but a Thinker, your approach to logic and reason seems fairly impersonal.


Yeah, I’m SLUEI on the Big Five, which by MBTI dichotomies ends up translating as the more neurotic and easily irritated ENTP.

In Oldham I’m a blend of Vigilant and Inventive. The Inventive corresponds but Vigilant seems conflicting with the ENTP archetype.


----------



## ElectricSlime

A good example of Jungian Fe gone wrong, and my gripes with it.: 






Also the extended version at 11:14






Mob mentality, throwing an emotional tantrum to demonize someone, wanting to keep social harmony to the point of putting down threats to it with an iron fist. 

>manwoman physically threatens someone due to freely expressing an opinion revolving around biological facts
>literally no one bats an eye
>Shapiro points out the massive bullshit going on in a much more subdued way than I would have
>That one black dude with hipster glasses: "t-t-t-t-t-to be fair you were being rude"

Amazing how low humanity can fall. I will admit that Shapiro tends to be more abrasive than is necessary but that was just plain ridiculous.

@mistakenforstranger

That kind of thing coupled with the idiotic fellow you put on display earlier really hammers home how things have changed. I'm a solid liberal by original definition, nowadays I practically am a conservative in relation to the average liberal.


----------



## mp2

@ElectricSlime

6w7 does seem like a perfect fit. It’s funny, because before I thought I had some sort of 7 influence, but couldn’t see 7 core, 7 fix, or 8w7, so I thought it was due to being either 5 or 6w5 without ever seriously considering 6w7. I have no idea why :laughing: I think it may be 7 influence that was leading me to not consider it in the first place. That I’d rather have fun exploring different options rather than discover my true type, which can come with things that are difficult to acknowledge. Reading unhealthy-average-healthy descriptions of 6w7, as opposed to 6w5, also feels like reading descriptions of myself. So IEE 6w7 definitely feels right. 

Beatrice Chestnut’s description of sp 6’s hit even closer to home looking at it as a 6w7. 

Ha, I was thinking much of the musical chair thing could be related to Ti in some way? I think for me it could be more of the result of PolR Ti, where I never really place much importance at looking at things from a Ti perspective. I agree with others that you don’t really vibe 1D Ti. It could just be a matter of valued vs unvalued Ti as to why it vibes that way to me, though. 

Part of it for me is that it’s also easier for me to understand something fully if I apply it to myself. So, to understand a specific type it helps to imagine myself as that type, to convince myself why I could be that type, even though eventually I’ll realize it’s not true. Plus, if it’s something like typology with no real time limit or vital end-game, it’s very easy to get lost in fun speculation to a point where I forget what is and isn’t likely, because it’s no big deal if I’m wrong, as long as I know I’m likely wrong about it. Plus, this process gets me there eventually since there is no time limit. I guess my thought process revolves around being fine with having 100 or more terrible, idiotic, and incorrect ideas as long as it leads to one great idea. I think this can make me look like an idiot or a maniac at times :crazy: but I really don’t care all that much about that. I mean, I do, but I’ve grown to ignore it I guess. 

What also appears to point heavily towards six is my need for outside confirmation of ideas to truly evaluate them. Outside sources like books/internet are never enough, really, they make me better informed but only spark the musical chairs process again. There doesn’t appear to be any substitute for direct feedback, which is something I’m only starting to realize about myself, in many areas, recently. :blushed: I think this may have been a major reason in thinking I’m an Fe user or coming across that way, also :thinking2: 

6 does seem like a cool type and I agree with the way it relates to 4 and 5. Many descriptions just don’t seem to be that great, though. For one, it’s hard to say how “loyal” I am. It’s not something I would ever think about, or I don’t know anyone that attempts to judge their own loyalty, unless they’re in the military or something. All I can say is that I’m not extremely disloyal, but I have a hard time trying to judge it in any way. My loyalty is always a point made in letters of recommendation, performance reviews, or references, but I just always assumed it was nonsensical filler. 

One thing that came to mind when thinking of 6 combined with Ne was with dating. I never want to have to fight for anyone and defend their honor or anything, which would really freak me out and it’s something I’ve spent too much time playing out. One girl I dated, I used to walk her to her car all the time late at night, through a fucked up place for a long walk, and the whole time I’m just wondering what I would do if confronted by an attacker. I’m no good in a fight. I probably come across as a slightly more challenging target than the average female. 

So, it’s just always envisioning the worst case scenario. That I would get all uffer: and scream insane creative threats to thwart them, which could easily backfire. Another possible result would be crying/begging, which maybe wouldn’t be the best option. Then eventually she’d get to her car and I’d realize “Oh, shit, I’m on my own on the walk back :shocked: “ and start planning more defensive strategies. Probably not related to Enneagram at all, but even in less extreme situations, like possible confrontations in a restaurant or something, this is just always my thought process and it appears to be a fear of facing fear/cowardice. And I often usually just deal with it using humor or by being self-deprecating, like the way I would joke with her about throwing her at an attacker why I make my escape or making light of my own cowardice in other ways.

Or, like now, I’m in the process of moving and was thinking about putting things on Craig’s List but decided against it out of the slight possibility that I may be murdered :shocked: Again, I don’t know if this would be attributed to 6, but these are things that have led me to consider inferior Ne before, worst case scenario thinking and what not, but it seems like it might be related to being a highly phobic sp 6 but still just could be something else entirely :thinking: 

Also, with thinking about cp/p 6, and that I’m likely a very phobic 6, that this does make more sense of relationship with addiction. That drugs/alcohol are a quick answer to deadening fear/anxiety, and that I can easily become a cp 6 with just a little help :blushed: Where I have a strong desire to lose control, to shut off the voice of caution, to not only accidentally put myself in danger, but to seek it. To a point where there are many instances where I’m lucky to be alive now, and I’m not as bad now but still some of these are very recent, and if I’m not more careful now my luck will run out and I’ll get myself killed. I tried to make sense of this with 9, 4, and 5 before, but it makes much more sense with 6. Of course, it still may not be related at all and could be something else entirely. Just an interesting thing to think about, is all. 

Also, I realized today that I can’t tie a neck tie for the life of me so I left it in a bathroom trashcan at the last minute. For some reason this seems relevant all of a sudden, but I’m not sure why :thinking: 

Thanks for the input and descriptions! 6w7 does appear to be a perfect fit.
@Vixey and @Nissa Nissa thanks for the input! Also for promoting me to the rank of mp3 :yeah: I was going to respond more but went on much longer than I thought I would above so I will later :blushed: 

I actually thought I was going to respond with 1-2 short paragraphs in general but then started looking at everything through the lens of 6w7 :shocked:


----------



## Lunacik

Someone must have slipped cocaine in my caffeine and I am bored in the worst of ways


----------



## ElectricSlime

@mp2

Glad you finally found a fit ! You might want to keep a door open and consider 9 again as well just in case but I think 6w7 makes perfect sense.


----------



## Paradigm

RGB said:


> Someone must have slipped cocaine in my caffeine and I am bored in the worst of ways


Ugh, so am I. So I reappear >_<
Probably going to regret this.



mp2 said:


> Also, with thinking about cp/p 6, and that I’m likely a very phobic 6, that this does make more sense of relationship with addiction. That drugs/alcohol are a quick answer to deadening fear/anxiety, and that I can easily become a cp 6 with just a little help :blushed: *Where I have a strong desire to lose control, to shut off the voice of caution, to not only accidentally put myself in danger, but to seek it.* To a point where there are many instances where I’m lucky to be alive now, and I’m not as bad now but still some of these are very recent, and if I’m not more careful now my luck will run out and I’ll get myself killed. I tried to make sense of this with 9, 4, and 5 before, but *it makes much more sense with 6. *Of course, it still may not be related at all and could be something else entirely. Just an interesting thing to think about, is all.


How so? 7 is relatively known for its desire to kill unwanted emotions, and so is 9. (9 is dead inside, right?) 4 is known for self-destructive behaviors, as well. 5 could be too in their own heads, maybe too prideful, to seek outside help. I'm not sure of your logic-leap, here, is all.

Also if you have anxiety, you're going to relate to 6 because that and loyalty are the only traits we're allowed to have. /sarcasm


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Mr Castelo said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> 9s somehow being happier than other types is a shitty stereotype, surely neglecting yourself is not one of the most pleasant experiences. Though in average, yeah, most _look_ like they're untroubled or believe themselves to be that way even if that's not the case.


Yeah, that's why I said "seemingly" happier, which I meant in terms of appearance, but wasn't clear about, as opposed to myself, with a more gloomier/melancholic disposition. "Give up the moody brooding." (Ulysses quote from Buck to Stephen). Although I'm not always like that and can be light-hearted when in the mood, but does seem to be more my baseline, carrying a weight of sadness around with me. On the other hand, 9s can also appear apathetic, disassociated, numbed/drugged out, in lower health levels, so not always the image of happiness too. And surely all types have their own brand of unhappiness, so I'm not excluding 9 from this either, but again, I meant from 9s I've known they seem (or like to seem) happier than me, being a positive triad type after all.


----------



## Lunacik

x


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> from my perspective 9 reframing 'and that's why everything is ok' can look pretty dark, but more like empty and nihilistic, lots of 9s for example talk about how they won't care if they die, or death will just be peaceful, terrifies me :shocked:


Yeah, that's a good point. 9s can often just give up on themselves, and think they can't change their situation, like staying in abusive relationships for years, or smoking pot/drinking day in day out. It's like an existence as a zombie, as I was saying earlier with Shaun of the Dead, alive but dead to life. There isn't anything positive about that. I was also watching a few of those My 600 lb life episodes, and I'm sure one of those people was an extremely unhealthy 9, who had given up on their life and just ate and ate, didn't care if it killed them, and were too big to ever leave their bed...but I do see these as extreme examples. Generally, 9s are on the whole positive people.

I mean, Ringo is a total 9...


* *












But, think Linkin Park expresses a lot of 9 too for a more angsty example:


* *






"I found bliss in ignorance, less I hear, the less you'll say..."






"In the end, it doesn't even matter..."






"Don't turn your back on me, I won't be ignored...Hear me out now, you're going listen to me like it or not."












> but feel like 9s can go down really weird route of being fascinated by darkness and such, maybe pushing the limits of how much they can accept? don't really have examples because this kind of thing doesn't interest me but think there are several celebrities that are a bit like that?


How so? I don't really see 9s being fascinated with darkness. I think that's more 5 or 4, at least in the sense of plunging into the abyss...Understanding the Enneagram with Judith Searle



> I would suggest that Four and Five, the two types that flank the gap, in a sense do not have wings to each other so much as each has one wing to the ultimate darkness. Both these types are notable for their problems with identity. Four solves the problem by defining its identity in its capacity for feeling, while Five defines its identity in its capacity for thought. But both are vulnerable, in their pathological levels, to a perceived "loss of self," a special relationship with the abyss.





> In a sense, Nine is as vulnerable to a loss of self as Four and Five, but Nine's problem arises from the reverse situation: "flooding" rather than "emptiness." One might say that Nine lives across the street from the abyss, while Four and Five live next door to it. Or, to put the comparison in a Buddhist context, we might say that the Four has a craving for the void, the Five an aversion to it, the Nine ignorance (or confusion) about it.


----------



## Lunacik

mistakenforstranger said:


> But, think Linkin Park expresses a lot of 9 too for a more angsty example:
> 
> "I found bliss in ignorance, *less I hear,* the less you'll say..."
> 
> "Don't turn your back on me, *I won't be ignored*...Hear me out now, you're going listen to me like it or not."


Hypocritical...


----------



## Dangerose

Random but



> I was also watching a few of those My 600 lb life episodes, and I'm sure one of those people was an extremely unhealthy 9, who had given up on their life and just ate and ate, didn't care if it killed them, and were too big to ever leave their bed...but I do see these as extreme examples.


Not 600 lbs but honestly this is relatable to me, feel like I can be this way about food  can easily imagine being that person, and I guess it feels 9ish or spish, think if I were 50 lbs heavier I wouldn't care anymore and would become like that person, why the fuck not, might have said that about myself now when I was 50 lbs lighter though 

I don't know, seems to me sp-lasts don't really have problems with weight? but for me it's like the tiny hope and desire to lose weight pitted that I try to fan into a flame (sometimes more successful, just had two weeks where I only ate one small meal, like one thing, every day, didn't even want to eat more, didn't lose weight though somehow) against huge ocean of basically just wanting to eat and probably self-destructiveness

is that sp-ish? it's really significant in my life, one of probably 5 most important themes, don't usually mention it because I think it sounds really disgusting to talk about but is it sp?


----------



## Dangerose

> If we’re waiting for certainty, we’ll be at it forever. Just look on how elusive I have been in these systems for the people here.* They think I’m too awesome to be a Six but struggle to find anything better. *They also agree that I’m most assuredly Beta yet won’t find a Beta type that fits.


yes, that's what's happened 
3 :laughing:

(to be clear not really against 6)



> I was mostly asking for a quick vibe and impression, that is sufficient. I don’t expect anyone to come with the conclusion for me, but I think using people as a sounding board is a good way to eliminate a potential self perception bias. (Yes you guys I don’t just preach people about that method, I apply it on myself~ That should prove my intentions are pure)


this btw is what I attempt to do at well, that's why I ask so many questions 
@Vixey 



> Es macht mehr Spass Englisch zu sprechen)
> IchEnglisch


Ja, stimmt, für mich auch))



> Aber auch nicht vor bestimmten Leuten, Englisch kann auch sehr peinlich sein. Ich kann nicht "I'll have a double cheeseburger and fries" and "thanks" vor meinem Vater sagen)) Es ist ein riesiges Problem
> Ich bin ein komisches Mädchen)


Ja, ich verstehe (ich bin nicht so, weil ich immer will eine Sprache sprechen auch wenn ich nur zwei Worten weiss) aber ich meine, dass es wird vielleicht peinlich am Anfang, aber es ist nur eine Moment und dann es wird total normal, wie wenn du im kalten Wasser reinkommst, du musst nur reinspringen und dann dir ist nicht mehr kalt!



> Warum Fe? (könnte sein)


Weil...ich weiss nicht wie ich kann's sagen, für mich...es ist wie du hast gesagt am Mistypes Thread, dass du willst nicht das Object zwischen Leute brechen, ich finde es ähnlich, und vielleicht Fe weil die Verstand von Fe ist mehr..selbststandig? Aber ich habe keine richtege Antwort, vielleicht ich meine gar nichts

(Ich weiss dass mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht, entschuldigung, und ich kann nicht meinem Scheissinternet Worten und Grammatik finden)

du kannst natürlich auf Englisch antworten)))


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> @Vixey doch es macht so viel Spass Deutsch zu sprechen  du kannst es nur probieren, ich glaub dass es wird nicht so schlecht wie du's jetzt findest
> 
> (ich soll wirklich praktieren, es ist auch sehr peinlich für mich)
> 
> Aber ich glaube dass es ist mehr 9 als 6, vielleicht Fe??


Cahf ah nafl mglw'nafh hh' ahor syha'h ah'legeth, ng llll or'azath syha'hnahh n'ghftephai n'gha ahornah ah'mglw'nafh ! Phnglui mglw’nafh cthulhu r'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn<3


----------



## Asd456

@mistakenforstranger Regarding the positive outlook triad, I don't even think 9s are the most positive; IME, Social 7s and actually I think 3s are more positive. Browsing the 9 subforum, I wouldn't describe them as positive. I'll leave it at that. 

PerC aside, I wouldn't say 9s often avoid darkness and that they're generally positive people. As for detachment, for self-preservation 9s I'd say the self-preservation instinct makes them more detached. IME, the projected positivity of the self-preservation 9 is just something they utilize to obtain their sense of internal peace. I don't think they care that much about positivity, what they really care about is to maintain their sense of internal peace and calmness. They'll tell you what you want to hear, genuinely smile and nod or lie to achieve this state of calmness. IME, there is a side to them that is detached, indifferent, apathetic and lethargic. This is the darkness that I was referring to. This kind of state can bring them the internal calmness that they want and to achieve this calmness, it doesn't really matter if it's through a state of indifference and apathy or projected positivity because their motivation and what they really want is to maintain their state of peace and calmness. 
@Brains Looks like we finally found something to agree on.


----------



## Brains

ElectricSlime said:


> Cahf ah nafl mglw'nafh hh' ahor syha'h ah'legeth, ng llll or'azath syha'hnahh n'ghftephai n'gha ahornah ah'mglw'nafh ! Phnglui mglw’nafh cthulhu r'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn<3


Cthulhu fhtagn!


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Asd456 said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* Regarding the positive outlook triad, I don't even think 9s are the most positive; IME, Social 7s and actually I think 3s are more positive. Browsing the 9 subforum, I wouldn't describe them as positive. I'll leave it at that.
> 
> PerC aside, I wouldn't say 9s often avoid darkness and that they're generally positive people. As for detachment, for self-preservation 9s I'd say the self-preservation instinct makes them more detached. IME, the projected positivity of the self-preservation 9 is just something they utilize to obtain their sense of internal peace. I don't think they care that much about positivity, what they really care about is to maintain their sense of internal peace and calmness. They'll tell you what you want to hear, genuinely smile and nod or lie to achieve this state of calmness. IME, there is a side to them that is detached, indifferent, apathetic and lethargic. This is the darkness that I was referring to. This kind of state can bring them the internal calmness that they want and to achieve this calmness, it doesn't really matter if it's through a state of indifference and apathy or projected positivity because their motivation and what they really want is to maintain their state of peace and calmness.
> 
> @*Brains* Looks like we finally found something to agree on.


Yes, I agree with that, think we just have different ideas of what's "darkness" and "positivity". Each type has their own darkness, but what I mean is, I don't consider 9s to have a specific focus on darkness itself, which again, I think is more the realm of 4 and 5. Even 6s can be too, but I don't see 9s becoming obsessed with darkness in that way. As you say, it would disturb their internal peace too much. 9s just generally seem to have a very "Not a problem, everything's fine, don't worry" attitude (Of course, sometimes it isn't even when they say that, but that's the Positive Triad at work) that I (and I know others do too) can't find to be anything but positive in nature, and also speaks to how 6's path is to integrate more to that state of mind.


----------



## Darkbloom

I also think 3s are maybe the most positive even though they aren't even a positive type, maybe especially something like 379? Think even 369 with positive wings can be very positive.
Not all 3s of course and doesn't mean they are genuinely happy all the time or whatever, just fit the word positive better than 2, 7 or 9 separately I feel, looking at behavior at least but maybe even actual type mechanisms.



ElectricSlime said:


> I was mostly asking for a quick vibe and impression, that is sufficient. I don’t expect anyone to come with the conclusion for me, but I think using people as a sounding board is a good way to eliminate a potential self perception bias. (Yes you guys I don’t just preach people about that method, I apply it on myself~ That should prove my intentions are pure)





Nissa Nissa said:


> this btw is what I attempt to do at well, that's why I ask so many questions


Same



> Ja, ich verstehe (ich bin nicht so, weil ich immer will eine Sprache sprechen auch wenn ich nur zwei Worten weiss) aber ich meine, dass es wird vielleicht peinlich am Anfang, aber es ist nur eine Moment und dann es wird total normal, wie wenn du im kalten Wasser reinkommst, du musst nur reinspringen und dann dir ist nicht mehr kalt!


Ja, du hast recht  :frustrating:


(well yesterday my stepfather sent me a message in German, wished me happy birthday and asked when I'm coming, responded in German without asking my mother how and pretending to not understand the question, that's a step forward I think  )
(but idk if he's even aware of it or not)
(and see I don't really like to say that, don't like making a step forward and admitting it, backwards is where I want to go, 9-ish maybe, also maybe another step forward)
(but yeah it is so stupid at this point honestly, very annoyed  )

(lol remembered how when I was in Greece with my dad I tried to use Italian as often as possible instead of English, know like ten words in Italian :laughing: )



> Ich weiss dass mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht, entschuldigung, und ich kann nicht meinem Scheissinternet Worten und Grammatik finden)


:laughing:

Keine Sorge, es ist viel besser als mein))


----------



## Darkbloom

Just wish that me trying to speak German in Germany could be just a person speaking German in Germany, a thing that happens all the time, I guess it's my fault for making a bigger deal out of it than it should be and now it has a meaning that a normal thing shouldn't have.
Like I know that first time I went there I really tried to speak German or at least use the words I learned and then at some point I stopped, think partly because I was too shy to talk to people and wanted my parents to speak for me regardless of language lol and not knowing German was a good excuse, my dad was starting to get sick of speaking for me in my language, thought it couldn't happen with mom and German.


----------



## Brains

Nissa Nissa said:


> just had two weeks where I only ate one small meal, like one thing, every day, didn't even want to eat more, didn't lose weight though somehow


Then you didn't, or your definition of a small meal is off.

<--- person who drinks an unfortunate amount of calories because fermented grape juice and distilled grain is delicious.


----------



## Dangerose

Brains said:


> Then you didn't, or your definition of a small meal is off.
> 
> <--- person who drinks an unfortunate amount of calories because fermented grape juice and distilled grain is delicious.


yesss I did, I'd say 400-1000 calories depending on the day, I know what's what 

(don't travel with a scale though, really I weighed myself like a month earlier, didn't start this diet till like a week, then two weeks with that and then a week not eating just one meal a day (but not eating terribly either) and it was the same, idk if the scales were both correct or if I gained everything back in a week, it's possible, but I also don't think it 's a 1:1 correlation how much you eat and how much weight you lose, obviously in general strokes but I notice I often get 'stuck' at a weight no matter what I do, have to pretty much wait to get through the plateau, think there are different things involved)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Cardio is the best way to burn fat and lose weight. Lots of cardio and lots of water, along with a healthy diet.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> Cardio is the best way to burn fat and lose weight. Lots of cardio and lots of water, along with a healthy diet.


(I didn't intend to turn this into a weight loss advice thread lol, wanted to know if that thing was sp or 9ish or not))

anyways don't really have option to do cardio atm, my ideal weight loss situation would be swimming, you burn so many calories and it's so fun :words: but yeah for me it really has to do with not eating a million sweets all the time, probably most important thing is distracting myself and actually having things to do or making myself do things :/

and I think not focusing on weight loss, think it's better if I don't call exercise exercise but just do something that is exercise, otherwise idk


----------



## Darkbloom

Swimming :lovekitty:
I wanna swim all the time, wish I could live by the seaside, for so many reasons.


----------



## Mr Castelo

@mistakenforstranger

What kind of "darkness" are you talking about? I have no problem researching about disturbing stuff, and in fact, I enjoy it, because I feel it wakes me up to reality, I'm rarely affected by things of that nature. I also know other 9s that do similar things (though, to be honest, I do know an INFP 9 who can't even stand to watch horror movies). I also don't avoid the "dark" parts of myself, self-awareness is not difficult for me. The problem lies where I have to expose those dark/honest aspects of myself to others (maybe it's a fear of loss and separation thing).


----------



## Paradigm

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yes, I agree with that, think we just have different ideas of what's "darkness" and "positivity". Each type has their own darkness, but what I mean is, I don't consider 9s to have a specific focus on darkness itself, which again, I think is more the realm of 4 and 5. Even 6s can be too, but I don't see 9s becoming obsessed with darkness in that way. As you say, it would disturb their internal peace too much. 9s just generally seem to have a very "Not a problem, everything's fine, don't worry" attitude (Of course, sometimes it isn't even when they say that, but that's the Positive Triad at work) that I (and I know others do too) can't find to be anything but positive in nature, and also speaks to how 6's path is to integrate more to that state of mind.


How are we even defining "darkness?" Or is this one of those things like "intense" where no one wants to or has words to explain it? 

I do find the trope about 4/5s "knowing" or "following" "darkness" to be so very tired, though. Maybe I'm jaded from spending ~7 years way severely depressed and 10+ moderately depressed. It's just too easy to assume those things are in the realm of "withdrawn," when it's just something that spans the entire human spectrum; that is, depression is a human emotion, and clinical depression can strike anyone. However, I don't disagree that Assertive and Positive types are often prone to "avoiding the problem(s)," but that doesn't preclude it like many who use the "darkness" thing (not necessarily anyone here - I tend to think of more than one interaction when posting) try to imply it does. I'd argue that trying to pin such things on (or off) of types is more confusing than not... IMO there's a distinction there, because _avoiding_ a problem does not mean "never facing it," and certainly does not mean "has never touched darkness." (Which, to point out again, is often undefined and thus misleading, like so many other terms are.)

----
Edit: @Mr Castelo, great minds think alike?


----------



## Dangerose

old collage but type it










crying


----------



## ElectricSlime

I’m pretty sure what @mistakenforstranger said about darkness for Nine, Four and Five was meant to be relative. And I have to agree that in comparison to 4 and 5, 9 isn’t nearly as likely to develop a fixation on negative and edgy stuff. In fact, Nine is kind of the anti edge type per excellence. 

Obviously Nines can be depressed, but the rabbit hole isn’t supposed to be their territory nor something they admire about themselves like some other types are prone to do.

That aside, my experience with 9 has also been with positive or at the very least neutral/apathetic people. Not the type to dwell in melodramas or to purposely engage/bring up unpleasant matters. And before I get intercepted by the semantics police, I haven’t said they _never_ do but rather that they are least prone to than several types.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Paradigm said:


> I don't even get your problem, really. No one initially replied to you specifically, no one even "attacked" anyone, and you, who I assumed as an individualist, are using an appeal to the majority as some smoking gun... And now you're baiting me. If you don't find this topic of nuance interesting, why did you insert yourself into the conversation, and why are you trying to speak for someone else (Stranger)? You hardly even touched on the topics I was trying to bring up, which there were probably 2-4 you could've seized on; you instead brought up unrelated arguments that didn't address anything and are continually trying to talk down to me. I don't see what you're trying to get at, unless maybe it's something personal, and PMs are best for that if it is.


You’re the one making this personal. I would’ve corrected anyone else. Now I’m just dealing with the reaction as I see fit, especially now that you’ve shown clear hostility through an attack.

You totally missed the point (which is something that I’m not alone to have seen, hence why I bring up the majority argument) by focusing on semantics. This stroke me as yet another crusade to fight against stereotypes, which here made no sense. I pointed it out and explained that the way dark was used here was plenty clear, which several others seem to also have caught onto. Stranger himself thanked, so I guess I expressed what he meant correctly. So yes I’m defending someone I feel has been wrongly misunderstood and had his point distorted. Because I felt like it. Now that it’s been done and I feel I’ve spread my message, I’m off to receive my white knighthood~


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> Being a glutton and overthinking it.
> 
> When I see the best portion, I claim it as mine. I don't look at it like a typology thing.
> 
> Edit: Maybe you're possessed by a Jew mom


Think in your case it doesn't mean much as a typology thing then, but feel like it would make sense that it's somewhat related in my case, it's one of the main things I remember, think it says too much about me to not be a typology thing at all 

(but it's probably partly just being a glutton possessed by a Jew mom)


----------



## Lunacik

I've been thinking about the Enneagram things that are discussed here, and recently I noticed that someone I know seems to enjoy delving into all these dark emotional subjects. I am so incredibly opposite, I try to escape these emotions. (I honestly try to escape every negative emotion, really.) I act like I feel nothing, and at times I truly am oblivious to what I feel while everyone else does see it. I can't handle that darkness the way this someone does. For me it almost would be emotionally masochistic. I'm not afraid to face my inner demons, and once I thought that was the same as being unafraid or unashamed of facing darkness. I have a new definition of darkness now. I loathe the intensity, the depth, of those emotional experiences. I want peace, and now I know that it is even if it requires being ignorant sometimes. I never knew this about myself until knowing someone who explores it.


----------



## Dangerose

I don't want peace, and it surprises me when I hear people say they don't want strong emotional experiences.

I don't know if I'd consider myself very dark - I can be interested in dark subjects, like serial killers or such things (was writing a book about a serial killer, ended up abandoning the project because because it felt like there was something really evil about it, my goal was to make people relate to the serial killer and confront darkness in themselves or something lol, didn't seem like a good goal in the end XD but did a lot of research for it, watched documentary about a body farm for example to get an idea about dead bodies, which is the sort of thing that really frightens me, often try to research something a lot if it frightens me - but not as an automatic reaction) 

But in the end I think I like darkness that is aesthetic, and one reason I would consider myself not a 4 I think, that is hard to explain and I don't know if I'm right, is that I really do like things to be in an aesthetic...mold? I don't like really fractured aesthetics, don't have a broken image and things being broken don't make sense to me, I like seeing things as they are ultimately and perfectly, feels 1ish in a sense because how things have broken off from the ideal feels more like a 'temptation', maybe towards 7 

For a stupid example that means more than that, don't like all these modern stories about you know broken families and gnawing regrets, to quote P.G. Wodehouse 'The only [novels] I ever see mentioned in the papers are about married couples who find life grey, and can't stick each other at any price.” 

but I guess I'm not that interested in . . . the complications (?) of existence, if that makes any sense


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Yeah, thinking about darkness, my daydreams can be "dark", but in a way that's... fun, basically. For example I like this:





But then there's something comforting about it, because it's arousing, and... Meanwhile, I don't care for watching the news and such, because that's just boring. Or recently I saw this thread talking about this show "13 Reason's why" and asking if you liked dark stories or preferred more fantastic stuff, and it's like well, with a show like that (from what little I saw, it's supposed to be realistic I guess), it's not very interesting to me. 

So idk if that's still positive outlook-ish, to not have much patience for things that are boring or unsexy, but that's something I've considered. Like, even with trauma I try to make it into something fun.


----------



## Dangerose

^yeah, something similar for sure

___________________

along the same lines as Vixey's food thing, always wonder if it's sp, I'm so possessive/neurotic about space

Like, working in someone's house and they set aside a part of the house for workers, that feels pretty separate, and they mostly never come there, however there is one common room that has some things in it and once in a while they come and do things there, it bothers me soooo much even though it's not even a room I use

(Like OBVIOUSLY they have a right to be there, it's their house, but it feels like 'my space' so I don't want them there, right now the lady's doing something and all I can think about it 'when is she going to leave?? is she going to come in here??' and it wouldn't even exactly bother me if she did come into the room where I am, not against seeing her, I just have this knee-jerk reaction to someone being in a place that I would consider partitioned to me, no idea why)

But I want my specific boundaries I guess, not how I think about it but...idk, it's not a logical thing, just instinctual

All the time btw, also applies to some extent to people going into places when I'm not there but that might have more to do with not wanting people to look at my things, remember last year I was renting a little house and I got locked out, when i came back the next day to get in my landlord had gone in and touched up the paint, also told me to clean my house, I was so furious, was about to leave, hate so much the idea that someone would come into 'my house' and have looked at my things enough to know it wasn't clean, still shudder internally when I think about that

etc

sp?


----------



## heavydirtysoul

What about me, what about me? :welcoming:


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> I've been thinking about the Enneagram things that are discussed here, and recently I noticed that someone I know seems to enjoy delving into all these dark emotional subjects. I am so incredibly opposite, I try to escape these emotions. (I honestly try to escape every negative emotion, really.) I act like I feel nothing, and at times I truly am oblivious to what I feel while everyone else does see it. I can't handle that darkness the way this someone does. For me it almost would be emotionally masochistic. I'm not afraid to face my inner demons, and once I thought that was the same as being unafraid or unashamed of facing darkness. I have a new definition of darkness now. I loathe the intensity, the depth, of those emotional experiences. I want peace, and now I know that it is even if it requires being ignorant sometimes. I never knew this about myself until knowing someone who explores it.


So you’ve settled on Nine then ?


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> So you’ve settled on Nine then ?


Basically, though I would entertain an argument for 1w9 instead based upon what you said during our 3 hour exchange. I would also entertain 9w1 as a possibility, but I see so much of that 8 willpower / etc. (at my best) in me in the 9w8 description you sent...and at times I'm so opposite of 9, w8 just makes sense. It's also statistically more likely for INFJs to be 9w8 than 9w1 according to my resource, and we already somewhat established that 9w1 doesn't really allow room for my past 8-like behaviors I shared with you, correct? I also was 9w8 on Enneagram assessment results pasted previously in this thread, though it was not my core on there. Evidence seems to accumulate in that direction.

The aforementioned results from before:










Besides, I'm not really preachy...I dish out advice, but I don't do the 1 stuff...


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> You’re the one making this personal. I would’ve corrected anyone else. Now I’m just dealing with the reaction as I see fit, especially now that you’ve shown clear hostility through an attack.
> You totally missed the point (which is something that I’m not alone to have seen, hence why I bring up the majority argument) by focusing on semantics. This stroke me as yet another crusade to fight against stereotypes, which here made no sense. I pointed it out and explained that the way dark was used here was plenty clear, which several others seem to also have caught onto. Stranger himself thanked, so I guess I expressed what he meant correctly. So yes I’m defending someone I feel has been wrongly misunderstood and had his point distorted. Because I felt like it. Now that it’s been done and I feel I’ve spread my message, I’m off to receive my white knighthood~


So, hang on. You're saying _I_ made it personal because _you _(inaccurately) assumed my stance as being "a crusade" against stereotypes - and apparently Stranger himself, which, what? - and thus it was acceptable for you to dismiss and belittle everything else. That or you dismissing my points isn't "making it personal" to you, which is funny to consider how anyone else would react when given the same treatment.

Just so we're clear:
While I don't deny thinking about or mentioning stereotypes, that was _not _the main or only point I put forth, especially at length. Since you brought up being agreed with, it's just as fair for me to point out you thinking I was on a "crusade" might make sense if I was the only one asking or talking about 9s and darkness, except I wasn't, I was just the only one that interpreted your replies as... conversational. And as for personal attacks, I'm of the opinion you gave (and instigated) just as much as you received.

I was right, reappearing so soon after that last debacle was the wrong choice. Seems like everything needs to hit rock bottom before improving. Have fun, guys.


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> Basically, though I would entertain an argument for 1w9 instead based upon what you said during our 3 hour exchange. I would also entertain 9w1 as a possibility, but I see so much of that 8 willpower / etc. (at my best) in me in the 9w8 description you sent...and at times I'm so opposite of 9, w8 just makes sense. It's also statistically more likely for INFJs to be 9w8 than 9w1 according to my resource, and we already somewhat established that 9w1 doesn't really allow room for my past 8-like behaviors I shared with you, correct? I also was 9w8 on Enneagram assessment results pasted previously in this thread, though it was not my core on there. Evidence seems to accumulate in that direction.
> 
> The aforementioned results from before:
> 
> View attachment 801138
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, I'm not really preachy...I dish out advice, but I don't do the 1 stuff...


Well the 1 argument was more about you consciously repressing your anger rather than be out of touch with it, the latter usually being the case for Nine. But then again, could be the result of a pull between 9 and your w8. I think 9w8 is good, don’t have any problem with it.


----------



## Lunacik

Yeah, with 9w8 I'm as close to a correct type as I'm going to get probably. Easily typed in Enneagram.
@ElectricSlime @Mr Castelo and anyone else I forgot to mention, Thank you for your time.

Slime, I'll get the info for your type stuff up tonight probably.


----------



## Dangerose

I see no poetry @ElectricSlime 

_____________

Only stray Enneagram thought I have on hand, was wondering today if attachment types are actually more common (as people often claim) or if attachment types tend to set the norm/play the everyman so it _comes across_ as their being more common

If that makes sense? Still struggle to understand what the attachment triad's all about, and of course plenty of attachment triad members don't set norm etc and other types do that a lot, but there's a thing I don't know how to put my finger on, it's like often in TV shows/books the main characters are attachment types and the surrounding characters are other types, had a metaphor once about like attachment types follow the road, rejection types cut through the fields, frustration types build the road, not sure if I like it (and it does make attachment types sound boring) but that's I guess how I think of it but I'm not sure if I'm right or what the mechanism behind it is supposed to be


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> I see no poetry @ElectricSlime
> 
> _____________
> 
> Only stray Enneagram thought I have on hand, was wondering today if attachment types are actually more common (as people often claim) or if attachment types tend to set the norm/play the everyman so it _comes across_ as their being more common
> 
> If that makes sense? Still struggle to understand what the attachment triad's all about, and of course plenty of attachment triad members don't set norm etc and other types do that a lot, but there's a thing I don't know how to put my finger on, it's like often in TV shows/books the main characters are attachment types and the surrounding characters are other types, had a metaphor once about like attachment types follow the road, rejection types cut through the fields, frustration types build the road, not sure if I like it (and it does make attachment types sound boring) but that's I guess how I think of it but I'm not sure if I'm right or what the mechanism behind it is supposed to be


I just need to sort the mess of paper left by my studies first.

Not to mention it’s something I scribble in between notes when bored in class, so it’s spread out across two or three different notebooks.

To address your question: fuck being an everyman. But it’s true that attachment should be the most common theoretically, since they have to conquer their whole triad and thus have larger in range and vaguer issues to deal with. They’re supposed to be the most “universal” types after all.

That’s why I’m pretty sure the PerC population isn’t representative of how many Threes there actually are. Partly because Threes are often busy IRL, but also because it takes courage to admit being a Three for many I’m sure. Not only the part about being fake, but also accepting the burden and standards that come with the type. Who would want to admit to being an unsuccessful Three right ? That’s why I see the type as tragic, there aren’t enough top spots in society for all Threes and yet it’s what they need to feel worthy of love. /tangent


----------



## Lunacik

@*Nissa Nissa* 


> ...it surprises me when I hear people say they don't want strong emotional experiences.


It surprises me when I hear others say that they do, lol.


----------



## Dangerose

ElectricSlime said:


> To address your question: fuck being an everyman. But it’s true that attachment should be the most common theoretically, since they have to conquer their whole triad and thus have larger in range and vaguer issues to deal with. They’re supposed to be the most “universal” types after all.


I think being the most universal type is what I meant by being an everyman (that word does sound a bit terrible and I did say 'playing' an everyman, because surely everyone has the potential to be an everyman or not be)
By 'conquer the whole triad' do you mean how it's the triangle?

Don't understand why that would make attachment types more _common_ though, just more universal (



> That’s why I’m pretty sure the PerC population isn’t representative of how many Threes there actually are. Partly because Threes are often busy IRL, but also because it takes courage to admit being a Three for many I’m sure. Not only the part about being fake, but also accepting the burden and standards that come with the type. Who would want to admit to being an unsuccessful Three right ? That’s why I see the type as tragic, there aren’t enough top spots in society for all Threes and yet it’s what they need to feel worthy of love. /tangent


:sad:

Well, it makes sense, though I'd put in that success is a relative marker and I wouldn't say it's necessarily a matter of their not being enough top spots as that success even in little things is hard to...succeed that, that's why it's success

But either way if the only acceptable answer is one of two outcomes, success and failure, it's like only wanting 'heads' and never 'tails', and it's only you when you're coming up all heads, frustrating existence (also I think 3 often comes across like the type is about coming up heads when it's more about tossing the coin)

(realize it's a faulted metaphor but it's the one that came into my head)

And yes what you're saying is insightful and makes sense, thanks)


----------



## ElectricSlime

Nissa Nissa said:


> I think being the most universal type is what I meant by being an everyman (that word does sound a bit terrible and I did say 'playing' an everyman, because surely everyone has the potential to be an everyman or not be)


Everyman translates as company dude or basic bitch to my brain processing, and I'm not happy with it. Going by those definitions Two is closer to an everyman than Three, since they mold better with the collectivity than Three who rises above it. Not that it's all that important. 



> By 'conquer the whole triad' do you mean how it's the triangle?


They're part of the triangle yeah but I meant head-gut-heart. They're at the center of their triad and struggle with both the internal-external (read this link to understand the dynamic: Enneagram Triads and Types ), and thus tend to use reality-based markers set by the people as a landmark instead. That doesn't really translate in conformism like some like to paint it as, but it does imply an observance of the norms stronger than say, an oblivious 5 lol. In the case of Six it can show up as so called famous scientific, true and tested approach that Naranjo correlates with Te. Let's just call it common rationality. In the case of Three, it's adhering to an identity validated by the external world as a totem and having the internal self adhere to it (hence the blocking out of personality traits that contradict the image). I won't talk about Nine, since I don't understand it as well as the others.

They have to conquer the whole triad since the deficit that is both internal and external makes them struggle with areas that pertain to both their neighbors. Six is the purest thinking type but it's also the most remote from a seeming solidity that is internal (Five) or external (Seven).



> Don't understand why that would make attachment types more _common_ though, just more universal


There's never been any objective observation of that. But it make sense for people to use the attachment triad strategy of compensation first and foremost, it's human stuff. That coupled with the fact that it's easier to fit people into types that struggle with a wider and vaguer set of issues (the attachment types) than a more specific fixation. I admit that this is just speculation though. The best backing I can offer is my own observations IRL. I can say I rarely meet Eights, Five, Fours (those are less rare for me however) and to a lesser extent Twos. Sixes, Nine and Threes are more abundant in various varieties. I also know a lot of Sevens, but I wouldn't be surprised if some turned out to be 6w7s or something. 

To take with a grain of salt.



> Well, it makes sense, though I'd put in that success is a relative marker


Untrue. Well no I see exactly where you're coming from (it's relative to the society and environment you're in), but it doesn't cut it from a Three perspective. The materialization of success is objective as seen by the results it has on the outside world. That's why from a MBTT standpoint EXXJ correlates very well with E3. Because they're proactive and look for objective data (emotional effect and expression for Fe, tangible results and facts that align with the outside world for Te) as measurement. Recognition and rewards are external objects observable by all, hence why it's a good measurement system for Threes to evaluate their worth. 



> and I wouldn't say it's necessarily a matter of their not being enough top spots as that success even in little things is hard to...succeed that, that's why it's success


I disagree but then again that might be biased by my own experience with winning and losing. In most cases I believe it's more the difficulty of adapting oneself to what brings success for a Three. For example finding a niche that brings validation to a Three for his talent, then having it lose its popularity. The Three then might need to find a new talent to build himself around and conform to the most popular thing available. Thing is people who excel at literally everything are rare, so there's no guarantee the Three will be talented there and able to compensate through sheer hardwork.

I had a friend like that in elementary and middle school, charismatic, smart, athletic and up there with me for the spot of most competitive person. He was great at hockey and that was the fad at first. Basketball came in with what I assume was a wave of cultural diversification where I'm from, and I played it myself. It started growing in popularity and he decided to drop hockey and soccer and do bball as well. But no matter how hard he tried from elementary to late high school, he never became more than a role player. I, on the other hand, excelled. It wasn't so much about me being more talented than him in general (although I am sort of a natural at a lot of things :smug but rather that he wasn't cut for this niche and persisted for what I assume was a decreasing validation in his main activities. But as a person he definitely has win potential. What's too bad today is that he seems to have taken a serious dip at Nine and is pretty much a shell of himself. He's a phlegmatic, unresponsive pothead who got fired from an easy and fun job and temporarily dropped out of school. He just doesn't give a shit anymore.



> But either way if the only acceptable answer is one of two outcomes, success and failure, it's like only wanting 'heads' and never 'tails', and it's only you when you're coming up all heads, frustrating existence (also I think 3 often comes across like the type is about coming up heads when it's more about tossing the coin)


Well you can shape your path to success through development and control the outcome to a large extent so it's not really random, but you're right that expecting to never fail is bound to make the fall hard because it ends up happening at some point. Even for people like Michael Jordan (and perhaps especially so).


----------



## ai.tran.75

.


----------



## ai.tran.75

.


----------



## ai.tran.75

Typo


----------



## mimesis

mimesis said:


> Not saying it applies to Vixey but people can do that (being confrontational) to test someone's loyalty.
> 
> Maybe you are only confrontational to strangers and never to friends? Because that would be contradictory?


Or even to evaluate safety for that matter. Since you don't feel safe with either a doormat, or someone easily turning their back on you. You could even see it as testing privilege, which could also be done in other ways. 

It's a simple heuristic (intuitive knowledge), as also is described by Winnicot as a stage in infant development:



Winnicott said:


> Early in this stage, the child realizes its dependence and learns about loss. By moving away from the child in well-timed small doses, the good-enough mother helps develop a healthy sense of independence.
> 
> A role of the mother here is to allow the child to project bad objects (fears, frustrations) into her and then re-introject them when they can see how well she handles them.
> 
> If the mother only returns her own defenses then the baby will not learn to trust her and will reject, withdraw or just become adaptive to this feared or disliked other.
> http://changingminds.org/disciplines/psychoanalysis/articles/winnicott_stages.htm


Point being, generally speaking, people can behave contradictory and inconsistent, but often the ego prevents awareness of contradictions, as cognitive dissonance, to become 'shadow' Self (as opposed to Persona). Whereas self-realization according to Jung exactly involves reconcilliation of opposites. In line of this, understanding human behavior involves understanding paradoxical behavior, rather than simplistically putting people in 9 or 16 boxes.


----------



## mimesis

Vixey said:


> (you guys, I never even said I was confrontational, just have Se thing that might not be Se (mentioning Se because this whole thing is Se's fault lol) (and thought it could be se/something because idk there are Si dom sp/so or something people who are the opposite of me) feel like people focus on weird parts of things I say)
> 
> (phone overheating)
> 
> 
> edit: to clarify, dont see myself as confrontational, tough, aggressive or any of those things, don't care if I am or not, just don't think i'm I fit ISFJ sx last x69 archetype, all of that could be my type but it's confusing and yeah, that is all


Like I said, not applying to you, but responding to the notion of seemingly contradictory behavior, used as an argument, implying people (or 'types') should behave in a consistent and non-contradictory manner.


----------



## mimesis

@Vixey 's phone is too hot to handle xD


----------



## ElectricSlime

mimesis said:


> Not saying it applies to Vixey but people can do that (being confrontational) to test someone's loyalty.
> 
> Maybe you are only confrontational to strangers and never to friends? Because that would be contradictory?


...who are you?

That’s not the way she presented it back then. I’m not gonna look for it but you’re free to do so. 

That aside, who would test one’s dad over petty things to test his “loyalty”... Ridiculous.


----------



## mimesis

ElectricSlime said:


> ...who are you?
> 
> That’s not the way she presented it back then. I’m not gonna look for it but you’re free to do so.
> 
> That aside, who would test one’s dad over petty things to test his “loyalty”... Ridiculous.



I've been posting this thread since 2013. You?


----------



## mimesis

Nissa Nissa said:


> Never been confrontational to test someone's loyalty, often confrontational because I just forget not to be or am bored and because it's harder to be non-confrontational than confrontational :frustrating:
> 
> don't think of myself as really helpless but I'm also quite timid and afraid in many situations which is not really about confrontation because confrontation is about my will and someone else's and timidity is about not knowing what to do, still want people to want to defend me and such
> 
> And get in a lot of fights with my parents but it's just because life is like that a lot, really sad when I realize they see me as an adult who should be taking care of herself, doesn't seem contradictory at all, kids fight with their parents all the time but still expect them to take care of them


The same 'kind' of behavior can have a myriad of motivations. And sometimes the motivation is seemingly contradictory to the behavior that manifests.

Like fear of abandonment can be at the root of schizoid avoidant behavior.


----------



## ElectricSlime

mimesis said:


> I've been posting this thread since 2013. You?


You’ve been wasting away your life on pseudoscience more than me. Congrats

I meant who are you to butt in on something you have no context of (as evidenced by the irrelevant loyalty comment) ?

Aaaaaaand just noticed you don’t even talk about Vixey (who presented information that even contradicts her own temperament, which should be a minimum consistent).

Done. Added to ignore because I won’t be bothered to further reply.


----------



## mimesis

ElectricSlime said:


> You’ve been wasting away your life on pseudoscience more than me. Congrats
> 
> I meant who are you to butt in on something you have no context of (as evidenced by the irrelevant loyalty comment) ?
> 
> Aaaaaaand just noticed you don’t even talk about Vixey (who presented information that even contradicts her own temperament, which should be a minimum consistent).
> 
> Done. Added to ignore because I won’t be bothered to further reply.


Yes, I responded to your argument of contradictory behavior.

But apparently you just don't cope well with contradictions, period.


----------



## Darkbloom

mimesis said:


> Like I said, not applying to you, but responding to the notion of seemingly contradictory behavior, used as an argument, implying people (or 'types') should behave in a consistent and non-contradictory manner.


Ok)



> Point being, generally speaking, people can behave contradictory and inconsistent, but often the ego prevents awareness of contradictions, as cognitive dissonance, to become 'shadow' Self (as opposed to Persona). Whereas self-realization according to Jung exactly involves reconcilliation of opposites. In line of this, understanding human behavior involves understanding paradoxical behavior, rather than simplistically putting people in 9 or 16 boxes.


:heart:

I don't believe there is such thing as true opposites or contradictions when it comes to personality, emotions and such, only things that are seemingly contradictory, and yes, behaviors can be 'contradictory' and people can present 'contradictory' information about themselves without being liars and manipulators.



mimesis said:


> @Vixey 's phone is too hot to handle xD


He takes after his mommy roud:


----------



## Darkbloom

ElectricSlime said:


> I meant who are you to butt in on something you have no context of


He does have some context though  edit: quite a bit of context actually (maybe not the most recent things, idk, but overall don't think you have more context)


----------



## mimesis

Vixey said:


> Ok)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is such thing as true opposites or contradictions when it comes to personality, emotions and such, only things that are seemingly contradictory, and yes, behaviors can be 'contradictory' and people can present 'contradictory' information about themselves without being liars and manipulators.


Awareness of contradictions, or perhaps rather acknowledgement is a step in personal growth and knowing oneself. Like I used to explain contradictory behavior as 'not being me', preferably caused by others. Until I could no longer excuse myself, or run away from it, i.e. from myself. 

But the example I gave of the abandonment fear leading to schizoid withdrawal is 'seemingly' contradictory, just like people can act aggressively to cope with fear of rejection. It 'seems' contradictory but it's strategic behavior based on expectation of others and self-efficacy (knowing how to deal and anticipate situations). They can also be cognitive behavioral loops, like self-fulfilling prophecies in that sense, which merely reinforce false beliefs. 




Vixey said:


> He takes after his mommy roud:


I need to put my laptop on cooling elements (wrapped in plastic freezer bags) like this cause it's 28° C (81F) here, but even that probably won't last very long. I got 9 elements (use 3 under my laptop) but it takes longer too freeze. But I've used it too cool my phone as well. Just make sure to protect from water.

* *


----------



## Dangerose

Anyways, I see this thing about 6s 'testing' people here and there, curious what people's experiences of it are, don't think I've ever tested people knowingly at least, or been aware that someone was testing me
@mimesis do you test people? curious since you brought it up and I think you've typed as 6 in the past at least


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## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> Mostly what I look for is a person to latch onto mentally, was considering sx 9 a bit ago because I feel like I just wait for people to come along and let them colour my world and then hope someone else comes soon, well it feels sx-ish in my head but it could be sx-last too, not sure what the difference is supposed to be lol


Wanted to say something about this earlier, but didn't have time, and now... :frustrating: but it reminds me of how Sx-last seems to be portrayed as more... empty, but I think any instinct can be "empty"

(and then I wanted to post a song, but can't quite find the right one)

And oh yes, always wondered about that testing thing with 6, but don't think I ever got a real answer for it.


----------



## mimesis

Nissa Nissa said:


> Anyways, I see this thing about 6s 'testing' people here and there, curious what people's experiences of it are, don't think I've ever tested people knowingly at least, or been aware that someone was testing me
> 
> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=35698" target="_blank">mimesis</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> do you test people? curious since you brought it up and I think you've typed as 6 in the past at least


Others have typed me 6. I never typed myself at 6 although I had considered 468 tritype for a brief moment, but I'm not much invested in tritype or wingtype. 

I'm more inclined to see the attachment triad as a more deindividuated rather tribal or communal level of (and sense of) self. Or, the hexagram at a more individuated level. And each with their own (dis)integration lines, or if you will, processes of integration or disintegration. I don't think it's either/or. 

I don't test people that way, the examples I gave are not mine but observations and experience, and things I learned over time. Basically, others testing me. I didn't understand the behavior at all, initially I just punched back, harder. Not physically though. But still, things could escalate quickly, and out of control.

Testing isn't exclusive to 6 btw. I would even assert that people aren't even necessarily fully aware of why they do so, like I said, it's intuitive and heuristic. 






It's like the heuristic that something (or someone) that's harder to get seems more worthy than something that's easy. Which isn't necessarily always true and perhaps often not. But as intuition, related to brain reward system (dopamine) it may operate unconsciously or subconsciously.


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## Dangerose

mimesis said:


> Others have typed me 6. I never typed myself at 6 although I had considered 468 tritype for a brief moment, but I'm not much invested in tritype or wingtype.


Ok) What do you type as?



> I'm more inclined to see the attachment triad as a more deindividuated rather tribal or communal level of (and sense of) self. Or, the hexagram at a more individuated level. And each with their own (dis)integration lines, or if you will, processes of integration or disintegration. I don't think it's either/or.


Oh, this makes sense and I know what you're talking about because my Ti is amazing :ball::sun-smiley::exterminate:



> I don't test people that way, the examples I gave are not mine but observations and experience, and things I learned over time. Basically, others testing me. I didn't understand the behavior at all, initially I just punched back, harder. Not physically though. But still, things could escalate quickly, and out of control.


Ok, thanks!



> Testing isn't exclusive to 6 btw. I would even assert that people aren't even necessarily fully aware of why they do so, like I said, it's intuitive and heuristic.


Interesting song, reminds me of Victim romance style

(Amy Winehouse is supposed to be a sx 6 right? Literally the first song I've heard of hers so no clue but think that could make sense with it?)



> It's like the heuristic that something (or someone) that's harder to get seems more worthy than something that's easy. Which isn't necessarily always true and perhaps often not. But as intuition, related to brain reward system (dopamine) it may operate unconsciously or subconsciously.


Right, makes sense


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## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> I don't test people that way, the examples I gave are not mine but observations and experience, and things I learned over time. Basically, others testing me. I didn't understand the behavior at all, initially I just punched back, harder. Not physically though. But still, things could escalate quickly, and out of control.
> Testing isn't exclusive to 6 btw. I would even assert that people aren't even necessarily fully aware of why they do so, like I said, it's intuitive and heuristic.


I don't test people, either; usually, if people think I'm "testing," it's either utter misinterpretation or projection. And I lose respect for people if they "test" me or, well, anyone, period. It's not respectful behavior, IMO, because it's so arbitrary and "sneaky," which makes it hypocritical, and it seems to me like a waste of time/energy when you could just be upfront instead. I do observe people, though, and I don't expect everyone to be okay with or good at the same things, so I can't say I treat everyone exactly the same way... But yeah, like so many things attributed to 6, my answer is "wow, that sounds tiring as hell."


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## Dangerose

Remnants said:


> Wanted to say something about this earlier, but didn't have time, and now... :frustrating: but it reminds me of how Sx-last seems to be portrayed as more... empty, but I think any instinct can be "empty"
> 
> (and then I wanted to post a song, but can't quite find the right one)


Not 100% sure what you mean by 'empty' but yeah I think I know what you mean
(no idea about my instincts though)

To illustrate this point or ?

(out of music :frustrating

edit: keep wanting to post this as an Alpha song but idek if it's a good example, always what I think of when I think of Alpha quadra))






https://lyricstranslate.com/en/tanz-mit-mir-dance-me.html-7#ixzz5Gv9SRWHp

_O come here, lovely, bring me the wine
Bring me the wine, I'm thirsty here
O come here, lovely, bring me the wine
I'm all for wine, women and song1

I'll pour you one if you dance with me
If you dance with me, then I'll go to you
I'll pour you one if you dance with me
Then you'll have wine, women and song.

Oh come here, lovely, up on the table
Up on the table, we'll dance up here
Oh come here, lovely, up on the table
So that everyone can watch us

I'll get up there for a kiss from you
A kiss from you, that's what I'm hoping for
I'll get up there for a kiss from you
Then I'll stand up there with you

Sin is alluring
And the flesh is weak
Thus it shall always be
The night is young
And the Devil laughs
Let's pour one for us now

And later, lovely, share my bed with me
Share my bed with me, so I'm not so cold
And later, lovely, share my bed with me
There's no shame in that

Only if you've kissed no other today
Kissed no other, if you're faithful to me
Only if you've kissed no other today
Otherwise you'll sleep alone

Sin is alluring
And the flesh is weak
Thus it shall always be
The night is young
And the Devil laughs
Let's pour one for us now

I'll pour you one if you dance with me
If you dance with me, right here and now
I'll pour you one if you dance with me
Then we'll dance, our bodies pressed together

I'll pour you one if you dance with me
If you dance with me, then I'll go to you
I'll pour you one if you dance with me
Then you'll have wine, women and song._


----------



## knife

So last night while I was at work my head wandered and I started thinking about the enneatype of a certain oaf in a certain white house. He's a particularly easy person to examine, on the whole, with two obvious and dominant enneatype trends: 3, which is how he presents himself to others at e.g. his rallies, and 8, which is how others who are close to him often see him. Now because there is no connection between 3 and 8 in classical Enneagram theory (8 is supposed to integrate to 2 and disintegrate to 5), we are forced to consider this in light of tritype theory, which yields 3-x-8 as a potential tritype. Thinking about it a little further, I concluded that his head type is most likely 7: after all, doesn't how he wound up in a position of power feel a little like a game that spiraled out of control? And there's a certain gaminess to his well-known penchant _for_ seduction as well as seduction strategies.

But I'm fairly certain that a whole bunch of people have arrived at that same basic conclusion. What I want to add here is that it would appear that, with tritypes, not only does order matter -- it matters a whole lot more than we might at first realize.

The fact that 7 is that man's least obvious trifix tells us he is head-last (as if that wasn't already apparent). But there is something else about the way the 7 operates in him that made me take notice: it seems to feed and fuel him in a certain way, but a way he does not and frankly probably cannot consciously recognize. It's probably why his games spin out of control. He wants to play, to have fun, but he cannot see the consequences of his own game-playing. What I'm saying here is that the 7 in him animates him, but in such a way that he has no real agency over the long-term consequences of the fulfillment of his desires. It's like a sort of blind spot -- but in a way that is blind in precisely the opposite way as an instinctual blind spot.

Then we look at his more apparent (and dominant) 3 and 8. Where do we see the 3? We see it in the way he _wants_ us to see him; in the way he projects to others. This suggests this is not actually his dominant fix: a 3-dom can't help but actually _be_ a 3, all the time, but somebody with a 3 in the middle of his tritype would see it as important that he _appears_ to be a 3 -- at least until you get to know him. This leaves 8, of course, as his dominant type. But notice how the 3ness seems to be able to be switched on? A sense that it's what he has a certain degree of conscious agency over it?

What I am suggesting here is that there are different _roles_ for each fix in the tritype: not just for the head/heart/gut triad but also for the _order_ of the fixes: We have the most agency over the middle fix, because we can switch it on and off at well, but significantly less agency over our dominant fix, because that is, at a fundamental level, _who we are_ -- and over our inferior fix, because it supplies goals and desires that are not necessarily fully thought through. I think we can sort the tritype in terms of "active", "projective", and "desiring" fixes -- that is, (1) who we are, (2) how we wish others to perceive us, and (3) what desires and goals underlie the way we act in the world.

You can also see how we can apply the Freudian ego-superego-id (in that order) distinction here. Why superego in the middle? Because, like the middle fix, the superego is ultimately projective: it is how we _want_ to see ourselves, and how we _want_ others to see us.

So let's apply this theory to myself. I think most of us know I'm a 59x, because anybody who's ever been close to me knows how ... uh ... obviously 5ish I am in a way that makes it basically impossible to escape from, and the part of me I tend to want to see myself as -- and tend, as a result, to project to others -- is very much a 9, and again this is something people who have known me for any length of time will tend to agree with. The problem I've always had is that I have no idea what my subconscious desires are (because they're subconscious, yeah?). But I _do_ know when I'm fulfilling them and when I'm not, because when I _am_ fulfilling them it gives me a certain sense of drive and purpose.

At the moment I find myself thinking my heart fix is 4w3 because I have a need to do things _my_ way, and that is something that I am very good at achieving -- but I also feel like I'm _missing_ something, that there's something else, some deep desire constantly picking at the core of me that I have been unable to consistently fulfill, like ever. Like with You-Know-Who's 7 fix, I am starting to realize what the consequences of my own heart fix are, and my stronger desires seem to be toxic to another major underlying desire of mine: to feel _successful_ doing things _my_ way.


----------



## Dangerose

(Ugh, I'm just never going to have an avatar/signature combination as satisfying as my last one :frustrating

___________________
@knife this is a fantastic post, thanks so much :lovekitty:

That's more or less supposed to be our relationship with the order of our instincts, isn't it? like first instinct = omnipresent, constant driving force, second instinct = controlled and strong, what we'd rather show to the world, third instinct = present but out of control?

(I've also heard a theory about tritype that each fix corresponds to an instinct, like an 837 sp/so would be a sp 8, so 3, sx 7 in descending order, kinda want to combine these two theories)

I'll save trying to apply this to myself for another post since it will be annoying to do right off the bat haha


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## mistakenforstranger

Asd456 said:


> 9's basic desire is wholeness and peace of mind; they feel a sense of wholeness when they feel a connection with the world. It's a sense of oneness with everyone and everything and this brings them internal peace.


True, but this is a bit Social-9 too.



> I see this sometimes when the INFP 9 Sp/Sx I know is outside in nature. It's like he is truly at peace with himself and he has a sense of spiritual oneness with the world. But there's also a side to him that's apathetic ("everything's fine" turns into "it doesn't matter"). Indolence with apathy is like a haze of not being present and not feeling, but you're at peace. Nothing can upset your state of calmness when you're not present and you don't allow yourself to feel or care about anything. *A 9 once told me that even when he's angry or upset, he's still calm and "everything's fine, don't worry" on the outside, but inside it's chaos. What I'm saying is, clinging onto internal peace doesn't mean it is always positive, and just because you see positivity on the outside, it doesn't mean it is a true representation on the inside.*


Yeah, I agree, and I said that earlier too:



> As you say, it would disturb their internal peace too much. 9s just generally seem to have a very "Not a problem, everything's fine, don't worry" attitude *(Of course, sometimes it isn't even when they say that, but that's the Positive Triad at work)*


And once a 9 starts disintegrating to 6, all that has been tamped down internally comes bubbling to the surface, where they can appear very stressed out instead of calm. 



> Of course it depends on the 9, but I don't think it's out of the question for a 9 to focus or fixate on darkness. According to Ichazo, 9's trap is _seeking: the trap that those who fixate onto the 9th point on the enneagram fall into can be characterized as Seeking. The constant seeking of philosophy, spirituality, mysticism, or other knowledge that pertains to the domain of the spiritual realm._


I think a lot of types, especially intuitives, would identify with that characterization, so I don't find it a very useful distinction on its own of what a 9 is. It's also interesting what Naranjo says about that aspect of 9s from C-N:



> In the case of ennea-type IX, rather, it is not the intensification of “ontic libido” that stands in the foreground but, on the contrary, a seeming lack of craving that gives the person an aura of spiritual fulfillment.Yet the seeming enlightenment of the “healthy peasant” entails an unconsciousness of unconsciousness, a falling asleep to one’s yearning. *I cannot understand Ichazo’s statement to the effect that in indolence “the trap” is being too much of a seeker. Characteristically, the opposite is true: type IX is not enough of a seeker*, despite the subjective sense of being so and despite manifestations of displaced seeking such as erudition, traveling, or collecting antiquities. Indeed such negative transmutation of the transformative urge into impulses oriented toward a less dimensioned venture is typical, and may express itself in a desire to know curiosities. Dickens’ Mr. Pickwick is a good literary example in his venturing beyond the outskirts of London, learning languages, and so on.





> IME, some 9s are deeply spiritual, intellectual and philosophical. I know an INTJ 9 Sp/So and he's interested in existentialism and mysticism. When a 9's trap is seeking (such as philosophy) and you have traits of apathy and dissociation, it's not inconceivable for a 9 to fixate or focus on darker themes, especially darker themes of philosophy.


Ok, but do you think that's because they are 9s, or because it's related to MBTI type, since he's an INTJ? Ni-doms are often drawn to those subjects. Naranjo also says this:



> *Just as at the bottom of the enneagram (IV and V) conscious existential pain is maximal, in ennea-type IX, at the top, it is minimal*; and while ontic obscuration in type III is better intuited by an outsider who may ask “What is all the rush about?” than by the subject himself, in type IX not even an outsider would guess the loss of inwardness on the individual’s part, for his contentedness seems to radiate in such a way that he seems more there to others than he himself feels. Precisely in this lies the special characteristic of the ontic obscuration in the indolent, over-adjusted disposition—that it has become blind to itself.


----------



## knife

@Nissa Nissa I've heard about that idea as well, but I tend to reject it because I feel the binder is way too strong. My line of thinking right now is that the enneatypes and instinctual variants are entirely separate from each other as source elements, but the appearance that you've described is a result of convergent development ... that is, they sort of start to reflect the trifix because the underlying relations are similar.


----------



## Paradigm

knife said:


> @Nissa Nissa I've heard about that idea as well, but I tend to reject it because I feel the binder is way too strong. My line of thinking right now is that the enneatypes and instinctual variants are entirely separate from each other as source elements, but the appearance that you've described is a result of convergent development ... that is, they sort of start to reflect the trifix because the underlying relations are similar.


They're supposed to be separate, yeah. It seems like people want to make everything into one big "whole," make everything connected, but the base of the elements are inherently dissimilar, so the result seems to be almost as if they're making up a new system entirely, rather than improving what's already there - which is furthered by the insistence that this "new" system is, in fact, an improvement. 

I think it's similar to the way Keirsey is an "improvement" to cognitive functions, personally. Subtypes (that is, the concept of, say, SOC 6 being wildly different from SX 6, and so on) seem like conflating two different premises. I can understand the idea that something so deep-rooted as instinct would affect something else deeply-rooted (type), but I don't like the trend of typing based on the conflation. At that point, you're not typing based on a system of 9 + 3 (or 9, if you use stacks) types, you're typing based on a system based on 27 types. (You can carry the same concept to typing via tritype, too, but that's a little more... complicated.)


----------



## knife

Paradigm said:


> They're supposed to be separate, yeah. It seems like people want to make everything into one big "whole," make everything connected, but the base of the elements are inherently dissimilar, so the result seems to be almost as if they're making up a new system entirely, rather than improving what's already there - which is furthered by the insistence that this "new" system is, in fact, an improvement.
> 
> I think it's similar to the way Keirsey is an "improvement" to cognitive functions, personally. Subtypes (that is, the concept of, say, SOC 6 being wildly different from SX 6, and so on) seem like conflating two different premises. I can understand the idea that something so deep-rooted as instinct would affect something else deeply-rooted (type), but I don't like the trend of typing based on the conflation. At that point, you're not typing based on a system of 9 + 3 (or 9, if you use stacks) types, you're typing based on a system based on 27 types. (You can carry the same concept to typing via tritype, too, but that's a little more... complicated.)


I think you're going the right direction here! Essentially the nine enneatypes and three instinctual variants arise in different ways -- possibly even in different parts of the brain -- and the instinctual stacking _colors_ the way we use our type(s). However, the triadic nature of enneatype (esp. tritype) and instinctual variants will also start to yield some convergent development ... because triadic systems will tend to work in the same way.

However, I'm also developing this idea that tritypes are actually the most robust major type system out there against chaos. The human mind is a chaotic system, after all, and one of the things about chaotic systems is that they're highly susceptible to starting conditions. So the tritype and instinctual variants represent how we react to our starting conditions ... In fact, I just spent most of the afternoon working on a model of this and I think you can yield 1,296 combinations out of different permutations and combinations of just the starting sets of 9 and 3.


----------



## Asd456

mistakenforstranger said:


> True, but this is a bit Social-9 too.


I'm sure it is. Ichazo's original ego types laid the foundation for Naranjo's subtypes, which is the combination of your core type and dominant instinct. Social 9 is a subtype of 9 and I was elaborating on 9's basic desire.



mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, I agree, and I said that earlier too:
> 
> As you say, it would disturb their internal peace too much. 9s just generally seem to have a very "Not a problem, everything's fine, don't worry" attitude *(Of course, sometimes it isn't even when they say that, but that's the Positive Triad at work)*


The difference is you're talking about the positive outlook triad whereas I'm talking about 9's basic desire for wholeness and peace as the source of the perceived external positivity since I already covered that I don't buy into the positive outlook triad, we are talking about two different things.



mistakenforstranger said:


> And once a 9 starts disintegrating to 6, all that has been tamped down internally comes bubbling to the surface, where they can appear very stressed out instead of calm.


I don't buy into RH's directions of integration and disintegration and levels of development.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I think a lot of types, especially intuitives, would identify with that characterization, so I don't find it a very useful distinction on its own of what a 9 is. It's also interesting what Naranjo says about that aspect of 9s from C-N:


I see. Are you saying you don't buy into Ichazo's ego types? I'm aware of Naranjo's criticism concerning 9's trap, which is something I don't agree with. I've been vocal that I generally like Naranjo's subtypes but I don't consider his work to be more substantial and significant compared to Ichazo's original ego types.



mistakenforstranger said:


> Ok, but do you think that's because they are 9s, or because it's related to MBTI type, since he's an INTJ? Ni-doms are often drawn to those subjects.


9's trap is part of Ichazo's structural framework (ego types), it's not perfect but I do agree with him. I see what you're saying but I wouldn't say it's related to MBTI type, INTJ or Ni-doms to be drawn to those subjects since it's not directly part of their core definitions as it is with type 9 and 9's trap and it's not exclusive to Ni-doms and INTJ to be drawn to those subjects, I'm sure sensors and non-intuitives can take interest as well.



mistakenforstranger said:


> Naranjo also says this:
> 
> 
> 
> *Just as at the bottom of the enneagram (IV and V) conscious existential pain is maximal, in ennea-type IX, at the top, it is minimal;* and while ontic obscuration in type III is better intuited by an outsider who may ask “What is all the rush about?” than by the subject himself, in type IX not even an outsider would guess the loss of inwardness on the individual’s part, for his contentedness seems to radiate in such a way that he seems more there to others than he himself feels. Precisely in this lies the special characteristic of the ontic obscuration in the indolent, over-adjusted disposition—that it has become blind to itself.
Click to expand...

Ok, what is your claim?


----------



## Darkbloom

Against typing based on system of 27 types but I think it's harder to type without taking both into account and I think subtypes can be helpful if you look at it as "This is what it might look like when a person is both sp and 2" or whatever, still can be misleading and not entirely accurate but that is how I try to look at it.
But it's difficult for me to completely separate them, for instance I think that if I'm a heart type I'm probably sp first and if I'm a 6 sp last would make more sense than sp first, it is I guess a problem, because it shows I don't exactly know what sp is and what 6 is so my thinking is basically "These things I don't know how to classify are either 6 or sp"(and I know sp and 6 are two very different things) but don't think anyone has a truly helpful answer, even if there is one it still takes lots of time to really get a feel for what all those things actually mean, especially how to apply them to myself, if something comes from sp or 6 in my specific case, etc.


Trying to figure out the thing with instincts and fixes, think it only works if I have a 4 fix so it can be social, feel like my social instinct is 4-ish more than anything


----------



## Dangerose

I think my 

1 is sx
2 has no instinct lol
3 is so
4 is sp
5 is sx (lol but I have no 5)
6 is...sp?
7 is so?
8 is sx 
9 is idk sp? don't really feel like I have 9 either, think if I were 9 I'd be sx 9 but :/

(honestly feel like any of the three gut types could be the one that secretly runs the show without my being aware, I'm way more critical + perfectionistic, passive, AND controlly/conquesty than I consciously realize)

edit: hate all the 2 subtypes btw, all very unrelatable, no clue what sx 2 is even supposed to be like, and the other two are strange and annoying

I mean I agree that subtypes aren't great but I want them to be so finding my instincts would be easier ahaha


----------



## Darkbloom

1 sp 
2 sp
3 sx
4 so I think
5 sx
6 idk sx I guess if I have to choose, maybe sp, depends on how much 6 influence I have
7 sx I guess but could be sp too, think it had some castle thing I found relatable
8 sx each:
9 probably sp tbh :laughing: ( edit: not sure why it's funny but it is) (but also used to be able to see sx, if I am a 9 then think sp+9 is too much for sure but I am more sp 9 than sx 9-ish and my 9 is sp-ish)


EDIT:


Nissa Nissa said:


> (honestly feel like any of the three gut types could be the one that secretly runs the show without my being aware, I'm way more critical + perfectionistic, passive, AND controlly/conquesty than I consciously realize)


I'm same with head I think


----------



## Dangerose

@Vixey why 1 sp?

Trying to imagine what people would say about me if I was a fictional character or a celebrity, for my gut fix for this thing 

Feel like the 2 first and 7 second thing works well, I mean it's a lot less embarrassing to be a 7 than a 2  but I think that makes sense, 7 is probably more what I present to people, and something I'm fluent in too but 2 is more constant driving force, really think it all works

and then I'd kinda want to say 8, I know everyone hates when I try to type at 278 :laughing: but I also think because 8 is more obviously kinda a 'wild card' than 9, not sure about 1

about 8:

-other week someone told me to 'stop trying to force me to do things', (normal + fun activities) it was very shameful to me, feel like it's something that happens and I'm aware it does and try to apprehend it by making a show of how I'll do what they want, 'oh you can do whatever you want' but that doesn't go very far  might just be being selfish though 

(the problem might also partly be that I happen to hang out with a lot of 9s who force me to force them to do things but don't like that feeling, idk)

-I've observed as a possible 'fatal flaw' of mine that I have to do everything 'my way' (à la Frank Sinatra who I constantly bizarrely see typed as 8), in the end I don't compromise, not in a sexy battly way though, maybe more of spoiled child way, and I've thought of it as potentially 8ish in the past but I don't remember why, hasn't come up lately really

-Not comfortable with vulnerability, mine or other people's

-Had more to say but can't remember it, a lot of this is stupid because I have a line to 8 anyways

was listening to this song today, feels really 8ish to me, made video which makes it an even better song to me 






edit: too late but forgot to post lyrics, this doesn't look like best translation ever but should give idea, don't feel like finding something better

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/kukushka-кукушка-cuckoo.html#ixzz5H1VmyiaJ

_How many songs are unwritten yet?
Tell me, cuckoo, sing it to me
Where should I live, in the city or outside
Lie like a stone or shine like a star
Like a star

My sun, come on, look at me
My palm turned into a fist
And if there's gunpowder, give me fire
That's how it is

Who's going to follow my lonely track
The strong and brave laid down their lives
On the battlefield, in fight
Few of them remained in our memory
Sober-minded, with the steady hand, in arms
In arms

My sun, come on, look at me
My palm turned into a fist
And if there's gunpowder, give me fire
That's how it is

Where are you now, my liberal freedom
Who are you meeting sweet sunrise with
Give me an answer
It's good to live with you and hard without you
The head and patient shoulders
To put under whip lashes, whip lashes

You my sun, come on, look at me
My palm turned into a fist
And if there's gunpowder, give me fire
It's like this (x2)

_
For 9:

-Often want other people to make decisions for me, think I could be described as definitely passive, always wished my parents would just tell me what to be when I grew up, I'm still upset that I'm supposed to figure out something on my own

-Don't think of myself as wanting peace but think I have a tendency to say the thing that will get me out of a situation as easily as possible, even if it's a lie, think I might just give up really easily

-Often pass under the radar for unknown reasons, feel like I'm often invisible and afraid of taking up space, as a teenager always felt really guilty for being so...superfluous

Don't really have things to say :frustrating: in weird fuzzy mood, can't put thoughts together, some collages though:

this was 9 inspired but also inspired by my life, think it's very 9ish quote, Pinterest is telling me it doesn't have it anymore so I just have tiny version










this one should be 8ish :laughing: well also 7 and just fun










but a lot of my collages tend to look 9ish, except I don't know if it's actually 9ish because I never related to the things people said were 9ish about my collages like people said fog was 9ish because it's the sleeping subconscious but that's not what fog represents to me, it's just beautiful and magic :fall: 

but, especially my early collages have a lot of fog and I'd really type them as 9 if I suddenly saw them





























maybe it's Si, not 9?

people also said like, the people have their faces turned away from the camera and that's 9/positive triad because they're not facing reality or something, definitely not what I have in mind lol, in those collages those people aren't looking at the camera because they're looking at something way better that you have to imagine

or well, genuinely loved Daeva's comments about my own collage 










think about it at times  but I don't know

_The first aspect that strikes me is the atmospheric element, placing the physical(!) environment in focus; beautiful and delicate dress, jewelry, delicate chandelier, candles lit in an impressive building, rocks, soft material,.. a look outside to an old European city, but still sitting in the warmth and comfort of the inside, and then the temples.
All of this strikes me as strong pointers toward a collage heavy on the Self Preservation instinct. Archetypically so, even. The stack is completed by Social following the Self Pres, with Sexual as the ignored one. Social because for one, the gazing of cities and architecture, while being heavy Self Pres, does imply a connection to a larger world. And two, words have been used. Words, writing, language, communication. All part of the Social instinct. Without the Social instinct, we would still be grunting and growling to each other. Ermh.. actually, even that is still Social!

Enneagram points 2 and 9 immediately spring to mind when looking at this beautiful collage. I feel the collage as being very warm, seducing (but not Sx), hopeful, tranquil, but also somewhat vague and.. lost, for a lack of a better word. The text also reminds me of type 9, starting with a "Maybe", going into the theme of forgetting, to end up in the realm of the fantasy of a vague "one dark century." Or in other words, not here, not now, not reality.
I suspect a 5 influence might be right for this collage. There is a bleakness to it, even with all of its warmth, that stands out to me. The picture of the man sitting, staring out of the window, also reminds me of fivish detachment. Strong introverted vibes here.

So, all in all, Sp/So 925!!_

_____________

edit: the lights were a metaphor btw, of life being like a string of lights to follow the next one, 'one dark century' I was thinking about the dark places between the lights, also had specific situation I was making it about haha, but that's probably not important, that was general concept but it's hard to explain

do people see 9 fix in me? or 9 core? :shocked:


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> I mean it's a lot less embarrassing to be a 7 than a 2


I think most people feel that way  



> Why sp 1?


Don't have a very good answer, it just definitely feels right to me  (I mean not as a fix or even a wing but like as a little side influence it makes sense more than sx 1 or so 1 but also more than like any 6 subtype for example), I mean reading the description it's not that directly relatable I guess but with some things I can draw some parallels and it feels convincing enough to be some kind of tiny influence (referring to that sad little 1 on the other side of 2 if I am a 2, and same with 9)
(Might try to elaborate tomorrow, want to go start studying before bed so that tomorrow morning I'd have some knowledge I'm scared of going to waste, if that makes sense)


----------



## mimesis

Nissa Nissa said:


> Ok) What do you type as?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, this makes sense and I know what you're talking about because my Ti is amazing :ball::sun-smiley::exterminate:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting song, reminds me of Victim romance style
> 
> (Amy Winehouse is supposed to be a sx 6 right? Literally the first song I've heard of hers so no clue but think that could make sense with it?)
> 
> 
> 
> Right, makes sense


I tested 5 but I self type at 4. 

I have a suspicion of what type aligns with Amy's behavior, based on what I've seen from her in documentaries and stuff on youtube.

I actually didn't know her well, not until after she died and I most of what I knew were bad stories, mostly related to substance abuse one way or the other. I kind of accidently saw some clips of her on youtube. It was even a fan made clip, made with phone when she was just trying to get some kebab or whatever and was waiting in the car. To me it showed how intrusive stardom can be, but she took it reasonably well and polite. 

And then I saw more clips and documentaries and interviews and she stole my heart really. So it made her history all the more tragic and heartbreaking to me. Type 4 would make it all more understandable to me, and that's most important to me so I'm not inviting anyone here to start a debate about her type, because it's just an interpretation of behavior, and trying to make sense of it. I think her case would fit @mistakenforstranger 's proposition that major success can have a destructive effect on ennea-type 4 particularly. 

If anyone thinks otherwise that's fine with me.


----------



## Dangerose

Please God people get into some sort of screaming match about Amy Winehouse's type

or if you find that disrespectful to the dead discuss Adele :sun-smiley: as I hear them often compared

I will put forth the idea that Adele is a sx 5, should upset someone






(first part is actually much funnier, recommend it highly)

edit: Bill Bailey seems like sp 8w9 or 9w8 to me


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> I don't test people, either; usually, if people think I'm "testing," it's either utter misinterpretation or projection. And I lose respect for people if they "test" me or, well, anyone, period. It's not respectful behavior, IMO, because it's so arbitrary and "sneaky," which makes it hypocritical, and it seems to me like a waste of time/energy when you could just be upfront instead. I do observe people, though, and I don't expect everyone to be okay with or good at the same things, so I can't say I treat everyone exactly the same way... But yeah, like so many things attributed to 6, my answer is "wow, that sounds tiring as hell."


Yeah, testing sounds a bit like entrapment this way. I don't think it's wrong in itself to test the water before diving in.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> Please God people get into some sort of screaming match about Amy Winehouse's type
> 
> or if you find that disrespectful to the dead discuss Adele :sun-smiley: as I hear them often compared
> 
> I will put forth the idea that Adele is a sx 5, should upset someone


:laughing: I really loved how you said that first line. It really has been too long since we've had a forum-wide screaming match about a celebrity's type. I don't know anything about Amy Winehouse, so I trust @*mimesis*' judgment on this one. Perhaps sx-7 as an alternative.

Adele is not sx-5!! :angry: Really don't know enough about Adele either, usually see people type her as 6w7 or 2w3, but I might go with sx 9w8. There's something 9-ish about her lyrics, but don't even ask me why I think that because I'll have to talk about how she has a positive outlook..."I wish nothing but the best for youuuuuuu..."

P.S. David Bowie is the most 4 to ever 4 of all the 4s...:wink: There's this hilarious interview where he reveals his true identity at 0:50..




"It's about number 4s..." :shocked:

(Unable to thank posts, says error...)

Also was thinking of the instincts for each type nonsense and guess I would see mine as this:

1 - so
2 - so (I secretly desire to be the leader of a girl squad...)
3 - sp
4 - so 
5 - sp
6 - sp
7 - sx 
8 - sp
9 - so or sx

And so agree with what you said earlier about how idealized sx/so (sx in general is, like I find it so funny that almost every Enneagram teacher types themselves as sx...) is about moving mountains and being flamenco dancing comets spilling their seed everywhere they go...:bored:


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> (Unable to thank posts, says error.


Same, and I got logged out, thought it was a sign from the universe that I shouldn't log in until I'm done with my exams but of course I didn't listen :frustrating:


----------



## Darkbloom

Know almost nothing about Adele but I think she always seems 9-ish to me or gut-ish or something, not sure exactly what, I don't really get her but 2w3 (and I think 4?) always surprises me for some reason 
(keep in mind I really know like two songs and I've read some lyrics, just talking about overall feel of her and her songs)


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> :laughing: I really loved how you said that first line. It really has been too long since we've had a forum-wide screaming match about a celebrity's type.


Right?? 



> I don't know anything about Amy Winehouse, so I trust @*mimesis*' judgment on this one. Perhaps sx-7 as an alternative.


from the video I saw + reputation this all seems accurate

(I should listen to her, same with David Bowie, so many huge artists I don't know a thing about, think I get intimidated by how much there is to learn, sometimes it feels like it would take me years and years to hear all their songs or even enough songs that if I was in a room with fans playing their music I'd recognize one or two, so I avoid them at all :laughing

want to be able to learn a new artist as a fun new snack, not a new religion, anyways do mean to make a study of some of these giant artists I've totally missed



> Adele is not sx-5!! :angry:


roud:



> Really don't know enough about Adele either, usually see people type her as 6w7 or 2w3, but I might go with sx 9w8.


Could make sense
There's something about her that doesn't register for me, in similar way that some people on her don't really register for me and they often want to type as gut types, in general in life there are people I don't know how to type at all and they can be similar to Adele in ways
Like her lyrics, really used to like her (don't dislike her now but don't listen often), but I almost can't find anything type-related in her lyrics somehow and when I do it doesn't feel right

this whole song for example, don't even know what it is






'she won't be able to love you like I do' sounds like a 2 statement



> There's something 9-ish about her lyrics, but don't even ask me why I think that because I'll have to talk about how she has a positive outlook..."I wish nothing but the best for youuuuuuu..."


#

Hm, yeah

you could be right, just remembered this song and it's very lovely, maybe it's resignation






'So I won't let you close enough to hurt me
I won't ask you, you will just desert me
I can't give you what you think you gave me'



> P.S. David Bowie is the most 4 to ever 4 of all the 4s...:wink: There's this hilarious interview where he reveals his true identity at 0:50..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "It's about number 4s..." :shocked:


:laughing: that's a great moment



> Also was thinking of the instincts for each type nonsense and guess I would see mine as this:
> 
> 1 - so
> 2 - so (I secretly desire to be the leader of a girl squad...)


I was going to suggest we could form one here and you could be the leader but I think Vixey will want to be Regina George so it's not going to go perfectly



> And so agree with what you said earlier about how idealized sx/so (sx in general is, like I find it so funny that almost every Enneagram teacher types themselves as sx...)


(yes, it's strange)

Beatrice Chestnut types as sp 2 I think? And Tom Condon idk, don't think sx, he's probably my favourite one that I'm aware of



> is about moving mountains and being flamenco dancing comets spilling their seed everywhere they go...:bored:


what a great image 



> (Unable to thank posts, says error...)





Vixey said:


> Same, and I got logged out, thought it was a sign from the universe that I shouldn't log in until I'm done with my exams but of course I didn't listen :frustrating:


Same and same, also took it as a sign from the universe, which I promptly ignored



Vixey said:


> Know almost nothing about Adele but I think she always seems 9-ish to me or gut-ish or something, not sure exactly what, I don't really get her but 2w3 (and I think 4?) always surprises me for some reason
> (keep in mind I really know like two songs and I've read some lyrics, just talking about overall feel of her and her songs)


2 and 4 surprise me for her, just doesn't seem heart type ish but I don't know why


----------



## Dangerose

Travelling makes me feel so sp, basically like a sp 5 (maybe it's my wild card sp 8 last fix disintegrating? :laughing

Hate it so so so so much, go to hotel, it's so nice and clean and comfortable but then it's not because once I open my suitcase to find anything it's just small and crowded, and once I go to sleep then it's immediately time to leave, don't have time to eat or get anything in order, have to leave and then figure out how to get to the next place, find the bus station, etc., and have to drag my suitcase around everywhere (and the two useful wheels are broken so I have to like walk beside it while holding it up so it doesn't scrape and scrape along the ground, does anyways and everyone is obviously wondering why I'm not dragging it behind me normally, except me to be more versatile and like walk into me and wonder why I didn't move away, and then once I get to next hotel it's too early and often they're not there like today they weren't there, or they look at me like 'how can you be here this early' and I ask if I can just leave my bags there until check-in time but they still seemed non-plussed, but if every hotel has check-out at 10 and check-in at 2 what do they think people are doing in the four hours in between, going on fun suitcase marathons?? 

and idk there's something about food too, just in general end up having all this sp stress and I just feel like...exposed to the elements, which seems stupid because staying in hotels and going to restaurants or grocery stores or whatever is not being exposed to the elements but it's just the feeling, feel like metal part of tire cutting into the ground without air in it

so I wonder if that's a sign of higher sp or at least not sp-last, when I write that all out it sounds not that bad but it really ends up bothering me

(And I like seeing new places, I do, many good experiences but I always feel really in the end obliged to see new places which I don't want to do because I spent all my energy trying to get to them as well as just keep being alive as a human being, shouldn't be that taxing and I should be used to it, idk)

___________________

MORE INTERESTING STORY today I had walked to a bus stop, wasn't totally sure if it was the right one, felt a little silly standing there with my suitcase like someone who definitely believed the bus she wanted was going to come along but I figured people didn't know my life so it didn't matter, then a lady came to the stop and I was slightly annoyed just off the bat because I was just annoyed at a person. Then she asked me 'is this the [T4]?' (not my bus but multiple buses come to the same stop) and I said, in a friendly voice, 'I have no idea honestly', then she said 'It should be here at 11:10' and I said 'hm, I really don't know, don't even know if I'm at the right stop' (I meant it as humorous disavowal of all knowledge related to this bus stop + I was feeling defensive about my presence there and wanted to forestall it) _and then she said_ like she was going to help or maybe it was part of her attempt to figure out where she was going 'where are you going?' and I said 'oh...it doesn't matter'

WHICH IS HORRIBLE, it would basically _ruin my day_ if someone said that to me, it was the politest way I going think of saying it in the two seconds of my mind going completely blank, but it's about as polite as hitting someone with a frying pan, after that I was so...well annoyed still frankly, that I said 'actually I don't think I'm at the right stop anyways' and left, there was another stop further down the road and the universe rewarded me for being a horrible human being by my bus arriving there just as I did, felt so bad after I had some time to reflect, in the moment I was mostly just annoyed and trying to seem polite

moral of the story: I love being a Fe-dom 2

anyways I was remembering, I was like that as a kind a lot, I'd have that sort of...I'd try SO HARD to be polite (and I've been on a recent quest to have more courtly manners) and then I'd end up saying things like that, being rude to my parents, it honestly feels like other people don't have problems like that, don't think my brother did for example and we have the same parents so they'd take the same kinds of things as rude/be annoying in the same ways, always end up wondering if I have some sort of mental disorder I don't know about 

which would kill me so don't talk about it, but is it some type thing?


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> I really loved how you said that first line. It really has been too long since we've had a forum-wide screaming match about a celebrity's type.





Nissa Nissa said:


> Right??


Think we're running out of opponents :sad:



> There's something about her that doesn't register for me, in similar way that some people on her don't really register for me and they often want to type as gut types, in general in life there are people I don't know how to type at all and they can be similar to Adele in ways
> Like her lyrics, really used to like her (don't dislike her now but don't listen often), but I almost can't find anything type-related in her lyrics somehow and when I do it doesn't feel right
> 
> this whole song for example, don't even know what it is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'she won't be able to love you like I do' sounds like a 2 statement


Yeah, same
I mean like that statement is 2-ish I guess but coming from her to me it sounds universal.



> I was going to suggest we could form one here and you could be the leader but I think Vixey will want to be Regina George so it's not going to go perfectly


I'll let stranger have the crown, my halo is enough for me:angel:



> Beatrice Chestnut types as sp 2 I think? And Tom Condon idk, don't think sx, he's probably my favourite one that I'm aware of


Yeah, Chestnut types as sp 2, sp/so I believe, remember her mentioning something about using her so 2 (or maybe I imagined it lol  but I hope she types as sp/so)
think she used to think she was sx before the whole subtype thing?
edit: feel like enneagram authors don't talk about themselves enough, would it be unprofessional or something?
If I were one I'd be on forums all the time, don't know if it'd be the right thing to do though, also is that So-ish?


----------



## Darkbloom

Where is everyone? :frustrating:


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Where is everyone? :frustrating:












Ollie Ollie Oxenfree


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> Yeah, testing sounds a bit like entrapment this way. I don't think it's wrong in itself to test the water before diving in.


I agree with both of those statements, yeah  The "entrapment" style is usually what one means when "6s test people" comes up - like they're actively looking for ways to distrust someone, presumably to "protect themselves." Catching people in lies/contradictions, looking for guilt, making up crazy scenarios to see what happens, etc. More "non-obvious" or "non-harmful" ways probably happen, too, but you get my point.

But your second point, "testing the waters," yeah I can say I do that. That's mostly what I meant by I observe people... I don't change my behavior any, I don't make up games to see what they'll do, and so on. I'm open with people from the get-go - at least, I don't hide things, much - but if they somehow react uncomfortably to something I said, I'll posit that they're going to be uncomfortable with other things and adjust accordingly, again not _changing_ so much as _adapting._ There's things of myself I'm not going to change/adapt, of course, but I don't see anything wrong in treating people they way they need/prefer to be treated - it's still all equal-opportunity, but everyone's needs for equality change.
I went a little off-topic I think, sorry. Sometimes/oftentimes I follow my thoughts to their conclusion too much 

I'm speaking for myself, of course, as I'm sure other people _do_ "test" or at least withhold more than I do. I haven't really seen my mom (6w5 SP/SO) "test," either, though, fwiw... And while I do kind of attribute my "openness" to my w7, she's fairly open too; might be her SOC-mid, or her tritype in general (692)?
(In retrospect there's plenty of 6w5 SOC-mid that are defensive / closed-off, never mind.)

EDIT: I want to add a couple tangential things. If I _notice_ someone being contradictory, at least in things I think they should be honest about, then I'm going to be fairly upset. I may not really do anything about it except make a mental note and maybe "adjust" somehow, but rarely is it so bad that I have to rethink the relationship. _However_, I tend to have a "three strikes" policy (which I followed before even realizing it was a policy of mine!) for what I think is most important, usually respect and/or reliability... And trustworthiness, but that falls under reliably imo. I never set anyone up to show any of these behaviors, though; typically it's all through completely normal/everyday interaction, shown by chance or things you'd normally ask of friends.


----------



## Darkbloom

Don't think I do any of those test-y things or even actively observe I think


----------



## Paradigm

Vixey said:


> Don't think I do any of those test-y things or even actively observe I think


...Maybe you aren't a 6?


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> I agree with both of those statements, yeah  The "entrapment" style is usually what one means when "6s test people" comes up - like they're actively looking for ways to distrust someone, presumably to "protect themselves." Catching people in lies/contradictions, looking for guilt, making up crazy scenarios to see what happens, etc. More "non-obvious" or "non-harmful" ways probably happen, too, but you get my point.
> 
> But your second point, "testing the waters," yeah I can say I do that. That's mostly what I meant by I observe people... I don't change my behavior any, I don't make up games to see what they'll do, and so on. I'm open with people from the get-go - at least, I don't hide things, much - but if they somehow react uncomfortably to something I said, I'll posit that they're going to be uncomfortable with other things and adjust accordingly, again not _changing_ so much as _adapting._ There's things of myself I'm not going to change/adapt, of course, but I don't see anything wrong in treating people they way they need/prefer to be treated - it's still all equal-opportunity, but everyone's needs for equality change.
> I went a little off-topic I think, sorry. Sometimes/oftentimes I follow my thoughts to their conclusion too much
> 
> I'm speaking for myself, of course, as I'm sure other people _do_ "test" or at least withhold more than I do. I haven't really seen my mom (6w5 SP/SO) "test," either, though, fwiw... And while I do kind of attribute my "openness" to my w7, she's fairly open too; might be her SOC-mid, or her tritype in general (692)?
> (In retrospect there's plenty of 6w5 SOC-mid that are defensive / closed-off, never mind.)
> 
> EDIT: I want to add a couple tangential things. If I _notice_ someone being contradictory, at least in things I think they should be honest about, then I'm going to be fairly upset. I may not really do anything about it except make a mental note and maybe "adjust" somehow, but rarely is it so bad that I have to rethink the relationship. _However_, I tend to have a "three strikes" policy (which I followed before even realizing it was a policy of mine!) for what I think is most important, usually respect and/or reliability... And trustworthiness, but that falls under reliably imo. I never set anyone up to show any of these behaviors, though; typically it's all through completely normal/everyday interaction, shown by chance or things you'd normally ask of friends.


Just a joke that I remember


----------



## Darkbloom

Paradigm said:


> ...Maybe you aren't a 6?


Yeah, feel like on the whole 6 feels off, thank you for your input)



> EDIT: I want to add a couple tangential things. If I notice someone being contradictory, at least in things I think they should be honest about, then I'm going to be fairly upset. I may not really do anything about it except make a mental note and maybe "adjust" somehow, but rarely is it so bad that I have to rethink the relationship. However, I tend to have a "three strikes" policy (which I followed before even realizing it was a policy of mine!) for what I think is most important, usually respect and/or reliability... And trustworthiness, but that falls under reliably imo. I never set anyone up to show any of these behaviors, though; typically it's all through completely normal/everyday interaction, shown by chance or things you'd normally ask of friends.


All of this is the opposite of my thinking, don't really focus on honesty, respect or reliability, don't consciously rethink relationships, also the last sentence is really not me because...idk I know you meant something else probably but think I'm referring to that too, I don't ask for anything of people, friends or otherwise, I mean...obviously I do, everyone does, but I guess for me it's that I either want/expect everything or nothing and I don't really ask.
Depends on context in real situations, like if someone is being terribly disrespectful towards me obviously I'm not gonna tolerate it most likely but it's not focused on disrespect, doesn't feel like I ask for respect, and it's not some decision I need to make, probably wouldn't even notice they were being disrespectful or dishonest or whatever, not sure how to explain, think I process it in less head-ish way.
(could also be lack of Fi though?)


----------



## mimesis

Paradigm said:


> I agree with both of those statements, yeah  The "entrapment" style is usually what one means when "6s test people" comes up - like they're actively looking for ways to distrust someone, presumably to "protect themselves." Catching people in lies/contradictions, looking for guilt, making up crazy scenarios to see what happens, etc. More "non-obvious" or "non-harmful" ways probably happen, too, but you get my point.
> 
> But your second point, "testing the waters," yeah I can say I do that. That's mostly what I meant by I observe people... I don't change my behavior any, I don't make up games to see what they'll do, and so on. I'm open with people from the get-go - at least, I don't hide things, much - but if they somehow react uncomfortably to something I said, I'll posit that they're going to be uncomfortable with other things and adjust accordingly, again not _changing_ so much as _adapting._ There's things of myself I'm not going to change/adapt, of course, but I don't see anything wrong in treating people they way they need/prefer to be treated - it's still all equal-opportunity, but everyone's needs for equality change.
> I went a little off-topic I think, sorry. Sometimes/oftentimes I follow my thoughts to their conclusion too much
> 
> I'm speaking for myself, of course, as I'm sure other people _do_ "test" or at least withhold more than I do. I haven't really seen my mom (6w5 SP/SO) "test," either, though, fwiw... And while I do kind of attribute my "openness" to my w7, she's fairly open too; might be her SOC-mid, or her tritype in general (692)?
> (In retrospect there's plenty of 6w5 SOC-mid that are defensive / closed-off, never mind.)
> 
> EDIT: I want to add a couple tangential things. If I _notice_ someone being contradictory, at least in things I think they should be honest about, then I'm going to be fairly upset. I may not really do anything about it except make a mental note and maybe "adjust" somehow, but rarely is it so bad that I have to rethink the relationship. _However_, I tend to have a "three strikes" policy (which I followed before even realizing it was a policy of mine!) for what I think is most important, usually respect and/or reliability... And trustworthiness, but that falls under reliably imo. I never set anyone up to show any of these behaviors, though; typically it's all through completely normal/everyday interaction, shown by chance or things you'd normally ask of friends.


Consistency in behavior (and words) is important in interpersonal and social psychology, because we like to feel able to anticipate a predictable world. In that sense it's common to human nature in general. I've stated earlier that it's also how people usually like to view or understand themselves, as inconsistency may give rise to cognitive dissonance. Inconsistencies in Self (or others that in some way extend Self, or the bigger 'us' Self is part of) may then be denied from awareness, through self-serving bias or cognitive bias, (in-group bias) etc. or rationalized to cope with this. Not looking the other way and ignore inconsistencies may give rise to doubt and losing the feeling of being able to anticipate the world and even ourselves. 

Changing Minds website on Consistency Principle


This is all pretty common psychology, but aspects which are also much in line with type 6. This is also why I'm more inclined to see the trigram or attachment triad and the hexagram as two distinct processes of integration/disintegration.

Integration of these two processes resembles more how Jung described the process of Individuation. Which is not just a matter of individualization, or at least not in the sense of ending up as an idiosyncratic hermit schizoid Self that lost all connection with social environment. The other way round, the attachment triad types may lose connection with Self, trying to understand self too much from 'without', rather than from 'within'. 

What's significant I think for type 6, and the kind of focus and testing you described is how as the type's Fixation this coping style can become a rather obsessive and compulsory and maladaptive (unhealthy) behavioral loop, because of loss of (Holy) Faith, so perhaps you might say "over-testing", like "over-thinking", because as you describe it, it doesn't solve the issue of fundamental distrust and fearful future anticipation, which according to Naranjo follows from 'rather not looking within, fearing to find Nothing is there', in other words rather than relying on inner guidance, or at least elaborate on that. 

In a similar way you could say regarding type 4, there is a positive and transformative and healthy form of Melancholy, as an aesthetic emotion of (pensive) reflection and transmutation of Sorrow to the 'Sublime', and the maladaptive obsessive and depressive Melancholy that obscures the 'essential quality' of Joy. 










A healthy 6, at least in terms of adaptivity, I could imagine may excell in the field of software testing or risk analyst/quality assurance, both which usually allocates 20-40% of project budget, so that's pretty significant and important.


----------



## Dangerose

I can't even imagine having a 'three strikes' policy for a couple of reasons

First and most importantly, don't think I register if someone's behaving in a 'strike'y way, don't think it's something I register if someone is acting 'disrespectful' (I mean that's strange because that makes it sound like I'm an authority figure or something, in general though if someone's acting badly it feels like something about them, not something about me and if someone makes a misstep I'm more likely to feel bad for them because I make a lot of missteps ahaha) or unreliable (I'd be sad if for example I was going to go to a party with someone and they flaked out, or someone was supposed to pick me up from somewhere and they didn't, it happened once and I was really sad haha, but...those examples are both obviously not about being reliable) ...or trustworthy, don't even know what that means or how I'd see it in someone

Secondly, how I feel about people just has to do with how I feel about them, not what they do, if I cut someone out of my life it's . . . probably because I feel like I'm annoying them and want to set them free :butterfly: or maybe I just get bored of someone but then it's not like a big one-time decision, I'll just try to make a very slow, polite retreat while trying to like them more (don't even like to talk about this ahaha, feel bad for the imaginary person I'm describing)
@Paradigm this was a reply to you but I was hurrying


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> Not 100% sure what you mean by 'empty' but yeah I think I know what you mean
> (no idea about my instincts though)
> 
> To illustrate this point or ?
> 
> (out of music :frustrating


Yeah, I'm not quite sure either, as I was having different thoughts relating to it lol.

Anyway, don't think the subtype thing works, but for fun:
Type 1: Idk, don't feel like I have much 1 at all, but probably Sp
Type 2: Sp
Type 3: Again idk, but probably Sp
Type 4: So
Type 5: Sp
Type 6: Sp
Type 7: Sx
Type 8: Sp :frustrating:
Type 9: Sp

...So pretty Sp. Except for 4. So it is kind of interesting, how I resonate with Social there, but with 5 for example, it sounds like the opposite of me. 

Don't really know what to think of the "strikes" thing. Not really how I function, though I do prefer people to be reliable, as I have been let down a lot. Feel like trust/distrust is different, as that's more about their intentions. Well, I do think people can be rather malicious, but still... it's not really a matter of me trusting them or not. 

Adaptation doesn't feel natural to me, but I guess it's easier online if I want to.


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> Type 1: Idk, don't feel like I have much 1 at all, but probably Sp
> Type 2: Sp
> Type 3: Again idk, but probably Sp
> Type 4: So
> Type 5: Sp
> Type 6: Sp
> Type 7: Sx
> Type 8: Sp :frustrating:
> Type 9: Sp


This makes so much sense for you, lol for some reason I love seeing people do this instinct+type thing


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Vixey said:


> This makes so much sense for you, lol for some reason I love seeing people do this instinct+type thing


Oh really :laughing:

But yeah, I actually considered 2-fix partly because Sp 2 resonates in a way, while Sp 4 is just... no, lol. Although that also depends on how you interpret them in the first place.


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> Oh really :laughing:
> 
> But yeah, I actually considered 2-fix partly because Sp 2 resonates in a way, while Sp 4 is just... no, lol. Although that also depends on how you interpret them in the first place.


yeah sp 2 seems more you than sp 4
but not like this sp 2
Enneagram Central - Subtype Two Self Preservation

(never understand this, says parents who are Twos do that thing but in my experience everyone but me does it)


----------



## Dangerose

sp 4 is relatable like:










(think my whole aesthetic is pretty sp 4ish? at least my idea of it)

No one's arguing against sp/sx but you should 

It's there as a bit of a lark but I don't know if it's as terrible as it kinda seems like it is

I'm not sure about so-last stackings anymore, the Enneasite guy and all the collage typing stuck me with this image of so-last as sort of smelly hell-encrusted troglodyte divorced eternally from the air and the sun, which isn't how I experience my life but I never really liked that image and idea anyways, just hard to reverse my understanding

Was remembering this song today and how me-ish it feels and I think there's something sp/sx-ish about it (I know it's based on a story but I don't know about that, just the song and how it sounds and feels)





_
All the faces
All the voices blur
Change to one face
Change to one voice
Prepare yourself for bed
The light seems bright
And glares on white walls
All the sounds of
Charlotte sometimes
Into the night with
Charlotte sometimes
Night after night she lay alone in bed
Her eyes so open to the dark
The streets all looked so strange
They seemed so far away
But Charlotte did not cry
The people seemed so close
Playing expressionless games
The people seemed
So close
So many
Other names
Sometimes I'm dreaming
Where all the other people dance
Sometimes I'm dreaming
Charlotte sometimes
Sometimes I'm dreaming
Expressionless the trance
Sometimes I'm dreaming
So many different names
Sometimes I'm dreaming
The sounds all stay the same
Sometimes I'm dreaming
She hopes to open shadowed eyes
On a different world
Come to me
Scared princess
Charlotte sometimes
On that bleak track
(See the sun is gone again)
The tears were pouring down her face
She was crying and crying for a girl
Who died so many years before
Sometimes I dream
Where all the other people dance
Sometimes I dream
Charlotte sometimes
Sometimes I dream
The sounds all stay the same
Sometimes I'm dreaming
There are so many different names
Sometimes I dream
Sometimes I dream
Charlotte sometimes crying for herself
Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself
But it's always with love
With so much love it looks like
Everything else
Of Charlotte sometimes
So far away
Glass sealed and pretty
Charlotte sometimes_

If that doesn't make sense I can try to explain but I'm not sure how at the moment


----------



## Darkbloom

:hampster:


----------



## Paradigm

mimesis said:


> Consistency in behavior (and words) is important in interpersonal and social psychology, because we like to feel able to anticipate a predictable world. In that sense it's common to human nature in general. I've stated earlier that it's also how people usually like to view or understand themselves, as inconsistency may give rise to cognitive dissonance. Inconsistencies in Self (or others that in some way extend Self, or the bigger 'us' Self is part of) may then be denied from awareness, through self-serving bias or cognitive bias, (in-group bias) etc. or rationalized to cope with this. Not looking the other way and ignore inconsistencies may give rise to doubt and losing the feeling of being able to anticipate the world and even ourselves.


Understandable. I, myself, just recently said humans engage in doublethink all the time, and this is a good way to explain it. Most people are inconsistent, and they _do not_ react well when that's pointed out. Over the years, I've noticed the Reactive types react the worst - which for 4 (identity) and 6 (transparency) I easily understand, but I'm not sure I do for 8. I would assume Type 1s would care more than 8s.

I would say I strive to be consistent and it's a value of mine; however, I don't think adapting my behavior is necessarily being inconsistent, but people could say it is. When I think of "being inconsistent," I think of people changing their masks (ala stereotypical 3) or being repeatedly contradictory. And like, I've changed my opinions of things, which isn't inconsistent, it's just... adapting. Of course, if one, say, "changes opinion" a lot, like based on the people they're around, then that's being inconsistent and untrustworthy.



> The other way round, the attachment triad types may lose connection with Self, trying to understand self too much from 'without', rather than from 'within'.
> What's significant I think for type 6, and the kind of focus and testing you described is how as the type's Fixation this coping style can become a rather obsessive and compulsory and maladaptive (unhealthy) behavioral loop, because of loss of (Holy) Faith, so perhaps you might say "over-testing", like "over-thinking", because as you describe it, it doesn't solve the issue of fundamental distrust and fearful future anticipation, which according to Naranjo follows from 'rather not looking within, fearing to find Nothing is there', in other words rather than relying on inner guidance, or at least elaborate on that.


That doesn't follow my understanding of Type 6, though I understand that's the common interpretation. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, but I think it's too narrow. In my interpretation, Faith (or "trust," as is my preferred term) can be lacking in either Inner or Outer. I lack "Outer Faith" more than I do "Inner Faith (Guidance)," in that I don't think there's anything in the world that is as trustworthy as myself. (However, I should note that I don't even find myself 100% trustworthy because the brain is constantly lying to itself, it's just that I am _more_ trustworthy than anything else.) I don't follow any set rules besides my own values, and I never really have... You could easily attribute my values to various sources if you wanted, but few of them came from one source. Most were "reinforced" before being followed, though, which I think says something but I'll admit I'm running out of steam for the moment...



> A healthy 6, at least in terms of adaptivity, I could imagine may excell in the field of software testing or risk analyst/quality assurance


I've excelled at programming (it's putting together pieces in the right order) and troubleshooting programming, so yeah basically :laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Nissa Nissa said:


> sp 4 is relatable like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (think my whole aesthetic is pretty sp 4ish? at least my idea of it)


I agree, can see Sp 4 aesthetic.


----------



## Darkbloom

Remnants said:


> I agree, can see Sp 4 aesthetic.


Yeah, same


----------



## Dangerose

Listened to Amy Winehouse's two albums btw (trying to listen to more albums as a rule)

not really my style, would have guessed sx/sp 7w8, can definitely see sx 4 too (such a confusing subtype) and don't know too much about her personal life

so no progress, just wanted to brag really


----------



## Darkbloom

anyone have any thoughts on sp/so?


----------



## Darkbloom

Posted this one another thread earlier, any thoughts?



> Was thinking a while ago, a couple of days after my birthday, how at this point I almost want to be older than I am so it's...idk how to explain, well was listening to a song relating to youth and I felt I was too young for it for some reason but I knew it'd be applicable in 10 years lol and that's just annoying, I want to at least have the song even if it's actually awful, not just that though, very hard to explain but feel like it happens often. Feels 4-ish and 7-ish I think. But also maybe want to be 100 and be young at heart* more than...feel like this, idk (well I do feel very young but I also feel very...idk noticed that I've been looking forward to being really old, don't want to die or anything but yeah, already feel ancient in a way)
> 
> And almost like there's something comforting, and liberating maybe, about that desperateness 30 something/40 something year old women have.
> 
> 
> edit: could people see 4 for me?
> The idea is slightly upsetting/nauseating almost :/, no offense to actual 4s or anything, don't hate it as a type but something about the idea of me being a 4 is just...not sure how to explain (it's not the obvious things I think, also it kinda just hit me one day months ago, kinda this feel of 4, never really noticed it before that)


*awkwardly worded, really, really hate those words and it doesn't feel accurate at all, not sure how to fix it, it's partly maybe how I imagine myself going completely insane one day, hard to explain.

Don't know, no time atm, but think it's enough for someone to have some thoughts 


(any thoughts, from anyone, can be "go die vixey" if it has to be, I like thoughts)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> (think my whole aesthetic is pretty sp 4ish? at least my idea of it)
> 
> No one's arguing against sp/sx but you should
> 
> It's there as a bit of a lark but I don't know if it's as terrible as it kinda seems like it is


I think of Edgar Allan Poe, Emily Dickinson, or Van Gogh for 4w5 sp/sx aesthetic. Usually people type her as a 5, but I'm going to be that guy.  I can't think of 4w3 sp/sx's, but you don't really feel Social-last. Though, maybe could see social-last from your pictures, like I notice social-lasts don't really smile a lot (not that every picture of yours is like this), even around others, usually have closed lips, and remember when I first saw your picture a long time ago, I thought maybe you were sp/sx, because you kind of gave the same vibe in your picture as my 4w5 sp/sx friend, but I also wouldn't put much weight into it. Just an observation, and again, would be hard to see you as so-last or sx-last, I think. I think of Social-lasts as like those people who would be happy live in the woods all alone, or off-the-grid, just being completely self-sufficient (more so for sp/sx than sx/sp) while the outside world fades away. Something like Thoreau, but never read Walden, and could see his motivation being Social too, but like that idea. Kristoff singing "Reindeers are better than people." Concerned about his business too. I think a lot of sp/sx's might be self-starting business people. This song feels like the Social-last anthem. Think the character in this movie (Into the Wild) was a sp/sx 4, who just goes and moves away from everyone in search of Alaska. Have known a few sp-4s who just travel to anywhere they want to escape normalcy, and Van Gogh was like that too. I'm really not like that, because I'm not self-sufficient at all, like I do the bare minimum when it comes to taking care of myself and hate that so much about life is self-maintenance. Why am I sp again? Thoughts?









> I'm not sure about so-last stackings anymore, *the Enneasite guy and all the collage typing stuck me with this image of so-last as sort of smelly hell-encrusted troglodyte divorced eternally from the air and the sun*, which isn't how I experience my life but I never really liked that image and idea anyways, just hard to reverse my understanding


 Of course...



> Was remembering this song today and how me-ish it feels and I think there's something sp/sx-ish about it (I know it's based on a story but I don't know about that, just the song and how it sounds and feels)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> All the faces
> All the voices blur
> Change to one face
> Change to one voice
> Prepare yourself for bed
> The light seems bright
> And glares on white walls
> All the sounds of
> Charlotte sometimes
> Into the night with
> Charlotte sometimes
> Night after night she lay alone in bed
> Her eyes so open to the dark
> The streets all looked so strange
> They seemed so far away
> But Charlotte did not cry
> The people seemed so close
> Playing expressionless games
> The people seemed
> So close
> So many
> Other names
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Where all the other people dance
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Charlotte sometimes
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Expressionless the trance
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> So many different names
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> The sounds all stay the same
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> She hopes to open shadowed eyes
> On a different world
> Come to me
> Scared princess
> Charlotte sometimes
> On that bleak track
> (See the sun is gone again)
> The tears were pouring down her face
> She was crying and crying for a girl
> Who died so many years before
> Sometimes I dream
> Where all the other people dance
> Sometimes I dream
> Charlotte sometimes
> Sometimes I dream
> The sounds all stay the same
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> There are so many different names
> Sometimes I dream
> Sometimes I dream
> Charlotte sometimes crying for herself
> Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself
> But it's always with love
> With so much love it looks like
> Everything else
> Of Charlotte sometimes
> So far away
> Glass sealed and pretty
> Charlotte sometimes_
> 
> If that doesn't make sense I can try to explain but I'm not sure how at the moment


I'm not sure of The Cure's instincts, certainly 4, and not sx-last. 



> I agree, can see Sp 4 aesthetic.


 @Remnants, did you mean Nissa's Nissa's aesthetic is sp-4? Always thought her collages (depending on the collage) gave me a dreamy sx-9 vibe with maybe some 4-ish undertones? Though, not saying you're a 9 or any type with any of this.


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> _Hate it so much_ when I assume someone's doing something for/because of me, acknowledge them subtly and then I see it had nothing to do with me.
> Example: a random person, especially a man, does something that makes it look like he's doing it to like make more space for me for example, or like getting up so I could sit (I don't know why I think anyone would do that  kinda sorta happened a couple of times though) or whatever, but then I realize he's just idk leaving or something, just living his life.
> (but it's even worse when I assume something's meant for me when it's actually for someone else)
> I try so hard to avoid that kind of thing.
> 
> High neuroticism or something?


yessss so bad, avoid that as much as possible (to the point where I think it's caused me to be rude on occasion, like can't imagine something worse than thanking someone and it had nothing to do with me, so think there are times I really should have thanked someone, but in general it's better to treat everything as if a person is just living their life)

associate it with shame and being a shame type, maybe 2 specifically? because for me it's kinda shame of pride but idk

and I think there have been times where I reacted like someone was trying to be nice to me, make things easier for me, like maybe I said 'oh no no, don't worry about it :saturn:' and later I realized they were actually thinking about someone else, I know it's happened but I think I've blocked it from my memory

even if it's very trivial and there's no reason I shouldn't have thought it was about me, it's still really terrible

and it's a little illogical, it's just misreading a situation, like waving back at someone who wasn't waving at you _shouldn't be embarrassing_, it's just being polite based on what your eyes are telling you, but it feels like so much more than that

__________

edit: @RGB off the cuff that sounds more Alpha than Beta to me?
but I'll look more at it tomorrow, too tired to think properly atm


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> After going over Socionics more I realized I hardly relate to EII at all in spite of the fact that I always test as that. IEI definitely resonates with me more, and so does Beta--except I don't normally take a leadership / controlling stance in groups, and I doubt anyone would ever refer to me as bossy in person. I prefer letting someone more extroverted, etc. take that position. I relate to Delta in a few points, but there are some key factors that are entirely opposite of me, too. In group settings I'd say I silently get the urge to speak up and 'take charge' a bit more that I usually do, but contain myself (or struggle to speak up), often to the point of silently being irritated by the way things go. Other times I make gentle suggestions, "hey, why don't we do it this way?" Maybe I'm just afraid of being bossy? I don't know. I usually just withdraw instead. If it comes out _easily_, it's normally in a playful way and done with lots of smiling involved. I don't like telling people what to do, but I don't exactly like being told what to do, either.
> 
> Edit: In some ways I have been inconsistent in this. When there is something that stands out to me, some idea proposed, I've been known to openly challenge, question, make points, etc. I had no problem with confronting things sometimes, though I scanned to see peoples' reactions, and after I saw that they looked offended or irritated, I began losing confidence and being more cautious, courteous, considerate. I've been learning more graceful and tactful approaches. I don't want to have that kind of effect on others.
> 
> For the most part, IEI-Ni actually resonates with me more than IEI-Fe. A few exceptions...
> 
> I'm pretty comfortable with 9w8 Sx.
> Still on the fence about /Sp or /So, but So 9s tend to merge with groups and get lost within them, and I've always kind of had a hard time with groups and struggled to connect. I also am spoken over top of sometimes, and that irritates me. When that happens repeatedly in a group, I either just quietly listen, shut everyone out / "withdraw" (at times into my own head) or I become more assertive / take on a more commanding presence. Usually the former.
> 
> [HR][/HR]
> 
> I honestly struggle to know myself, so I try to stick to experiences and actual examples because otherwise introspection is--although something I often do--I sometimes can't see clearly inside myself, nor my emotions. If I contradict myself or seem inconsistent with information later, this is likely why.


You’re probably Se PoLR tbh.

Beta is hierarchy, rough playing and one upping to get attention. Your reactions to these things on Discord and even on here so far were pretty much discomfort and withdrawing.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Nissa Nissa said:


> (Feel like that is my aesthetic though, without Van Gogh, if I slip into my natural bad taste :laughing
> I mean don't think I'm 4w5 sp/sx ahaha, just talking about things


Yeah, I mean, Van Gogh's aesthetic isn't _that_ 4, but I'm very sure he's a 4. Sp/sx "aesthetic" may be a bit darker than him with his bright landscapes and all. 



> I think sp 4 too


Glad you agree. 



> To be fair, think I smile enough in real life, but I have a face designed to make smiles look really horrifically ugly
> (Though I remember having to learn how to smile with my mouth open when I was 6 or so )
> 
> sorry for diverting with pictures of me, always hard to resist temptation


Saw the pictures, and yeah, like that one that you said was so/sx, doesn't seem as self-contained as I find sp can be. I don't see what's wrong with sx/so for you, think so/sx looks a bit more inviting, and you look a bit more seductive/penetrating lol? 



> Yeah, I'd kill myself
> 
> I mean, I'd get lonely and go crazy
> and don't care about self-sufficiency or whatever


Same to all. Feel like so-lasts are better at being without "people", even though I avoid most people. 



> The thing like I feel could be sp/sx is both...well, feel like I have kinda an austere aesthetic and something about me, plus there's this thing, it's from the Enneasite guy too lol but he said contra-flow was solipsistic, feel like I can get really solipsistic, it's why I wouldn't want to live in the forest, I wouldn't know if I was real or not :/
> But yeah idk


I don't think of sp/sx as austere (that's probably more sp/so, sx-last, or just Type 1), and you know how I feel about Enneasite. Did you have your collages read by him when that was all the rage?


> No idea about you, 4 is so confusing :frustrating: still would say so-first, so/sp and so/sx are equally good imb, you have this effect where I inherently trust your self-typing though, makes it hard to know :laughing:


Ok, I'm thinking so/sx might make a bit more sense than so/sp, as so/sp seems too formal for me (You know, P&P style) and I'm not as much, but still have really no clue besides not social-last, which probably points to social-first in a way. I still haven't ruled out sp/so, though. Kind of pointless to keep trying to figure it out, I think. Just feel like when I first landed on sp/so, I had the wrong idea about instincts.



> Agree, only know a few songs though, on my list for listening-to-albums
> Listened to a David Bowie album today
> There were some songs that sounded pretty 3ish, one that was like 'I broke down doors that would have stood in their way', but obviously I have only a thimble of knowledge at this point


Oh haha, which album? 



> sx9ish, hm? Interesting, thanks)
> 
> (I do feel like I would label my base aesthetic sp 4, but I don't really think aesthetic should be typed


Which collage of yours would you say is sp-4? Here's mine again, and I don't think I will make another one since I can never find images that I like, and feel like that one is enough. Really liked what you said about it before on next page too. I'm surprised I found this!

http://www.personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/152954-visual-typing-144.html

Found this too, where I said one of your collages was 9: http://www.personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/152954-visual-typing-133.html

This one is a bit more 4, but see the sx in it too: http://www.personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/152954-visual-typing-151.html



Nissa Nissa said:


> Anyways I'm not the person to create a self-sufficiency system but I'm going to call 'cat who walked by himself' Silver Self-Sufficiency
> 
> Financial and practical self-sufficiency (business self-starters) will be Bronze Self-Sufficiency
> 
> Independence of emotions (someone who doesn't need anyone) is Gold Self-Sufficiency
> 
> Things like going to college and generally handling life will be Marble Self-Sufficiency (so Vixey you'll have some marble but not so much bronze)


LOL, I fail at Bronze and Marble, a bit of Silver, while Gold seems most relatable, but I wouldn't say it's what I strive for either.


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> You’re probably Se PoLR tbh.
> 
> Beta is hierarchy, rough playing and one upping to get attention. Your reactions to these things on Discord and even on here so far were pretty much discomfort and withdrawing.


It's possible. Thanks for the response.

I will note however, that these occurrences pertaining to instability in my absence/presence among Discord/PerC are not my norm. Will explain later.


----------



## Lunacik

Nissa Nissa said:


> edit: @*RGB* off the cuff that sounds more Alpha than Beta to me?
> but I'll look more at it tomorrow, too tired to think properly atm


According to my self-assessments I made last night I learned that Alpha and Gamma are the types that resonate with me the least probably.


----------



## Lunacik

x


----------



## ElectricSlime

RGB said:


> According to my self-assessments I made last night I learned that Alpha and Gamma are the types that resonate with me the least probably.


Why ? The only attributes Delta and Beta share is aristocracy (on different factors) and clubs (NFs and STs)

They’re total opposites in everything they value. Not one shared information element.


----------



## Krayfish

RGB said:


> Sx blindness blows my mind. I can't even fathom it when people talk about it. It's the simplest thing, yet has perhaps been one of the most eye opening elements.


Honestly that’s how I feel about sp blindness tbh.


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> Why ? The only attributes Delta and Beta share is aristocracy (on different factors) and clubs (NFs and STs)


I relate to some portions of one, and other portions of the other. Some points I read and go, "this is opposite."


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, I mean, Van Gogh's aesthetic isn't _that_ 4, but I'm very sure he's a 4. Sp/sx "aesthetic" may be a bit darker than him with his bright landscapes and all.


Yes, he's definitely a 4 (but I have to say, never got him, always feel like people are seeing something I'm not)



> Saw the pictures, and yeah, like that one that you said was so/sx, doesn't seem as self-contained as I find sp can be. I don't see what's wrong with sx/so for you, think so/sx looks a bit more inviting, and you look a bit more seductive/penetrating lol?


Yeah, maybe
I don't often have the so/sx 'thing', feels some natural on some people but I don't know
sx/so feels most logical in a way but I don't think most people think sx-first for me, you might be the only one ok with it 
(for a long time everyone was soooo sure I was sx-last)

And Rose pointed out on the face typing thread:



> so/sx. (being blunt here) the intensity seems a bit too posed to be SX first. I don't see the hunger of the SX first either.


which I can't say isn't true



> Same to all. Feel like so-lasts are better at being without "people", even though I avoid most people.


Makes sense



> I don't think of sp/sx as austere (that's probably more sp/so, sx-last, or just Type 1), and you know how I feel about Enneasite. Did you have your collages read by him when that was all the rage?


Oh well austere was my own word  but maybe
Not really but talked to him a bit, he thought I was a 9 and as some point I think he said sx/so or so/sp, based on my pictures



> Ok, I'm thinking so/sx might make a bit more sense than so/sp, as so/sp seems too formal for me (You know, P&P style) and I'm not as much, but still have really no clue besides not social-last, which probably points to social-first in a way. I still haven't ruled out sp/so, though. Kind of pointless to keep trying to figure it out, I think. Just feel like when I first landed on sp/so, I had the wrong idea about instincts.


Hm
Not sure how to figure it out uffer:



> Oh haha, which album?


His second one, and this is the song I was thinking of:






(it was my favourite because I think 'I bless you madly' are a wonderful four words)



> Here's mine again, and I don't think I will make another one since I can never find images that I like, and feel like that one is enough. Really liked what you said about it before on next page too. I'm surprised I found this!
> 
> http://www.personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/152954-visual-typing-144.html


Forgot this!
And hm, I said sp, this aesthetic is pretty sp too, would still agree 
but don't think that counts for much)
I admire your restrained attitude to collage making))



> Found this too, where I said one of your collages was 9: http://www.personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/152954-visual-typing-133.html


Ooooohhh I thought this one was gone forever, honestly my favourite of any I've ever made, gifs are so much more expressive to me than normal images, and this one just seems to work
Why 9 btw?



> Which collage of yours would you say is sp-4?
> 
> This one is a bit more 4, but see the sx in it too: http://www.personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/152954-visual-typing-151.html


lol that's the one I was going to try to find   

Want to put out a reminder that I do not think I'm a 4))

think my earlier collages when I was being really careful about finding pictures that worked for me, posted some earlier so I'll feel weird to post them again

But this one I made specifically for 4 and it's how I'd think for sp 4 aesthetic I think?










but well, this one is probably the first one I made properly, and it seems pretty sp 4










(So hard to find things)


----------



## Dangerose

Unless, can anyone see 4?

Think if I were 4 I'd have to be sx-last, sx 4 honestly makes me feel ill (and not in 'I relate so much I can't deal' way)

and probably sp/so

Was seeing some videos of myself today, some really short ones people took of me smiling at and hugging people, from a long time ago, it was about the worst thing I've ever seen though, reminded me of all these 4ish things

The thing that works about sp 4 is like those collages and the 'in love with death' idea (not 'half in love with easeful death' though, that's 9 imo, always feel ashamed about death too

Remember my 4 friend once said to me, 'I'd be mortified if you died!', using the wrong word, she meant 'really sad/horrified but it was such a good misuse of a word, feel like the main thing I associate with death is shame, and it's there in the word too, it's connected

(well I imagine it comes from 'mortification' which is like 'penance')

'mortification' would perhaps be a good subtype name for sp 4 since it works on a few levels?


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa I think it's an option, I don't know if I understand 4 though so idk :/


----------



## Darkbloom

Really beginning to think instincts don't even exist/mean literally nothing


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> Really beginning to think instincts don't even exist/mean literally nothing


yeah, I've been kinda thinking this for a while :/

It's such a fun idea but :/


----------



## Dangerose

Oh, @mistakenforstranger, about your instincts, maybe it would help if you talked about your collage and what the images mean to you?

(You don't have to, just thought of it)

the triangle for example, why?


----------



## Lunacik

@mistakenforstranger what are some of the differences between 9w8 / 9w1?



Krayfish said:


> Honestly that’s how I feel about sp blindness tbh.


I've never listened to someone talk about that, but how do you relate to Sp Dominance if you don't mind?


----------



## knife

So I just finished _Brave New World_ and found myself relating to an uncomfortable degree to Bernard Marx ... particularly his weaknesses (and there are many). He has this nature where he is ostracized from a highly communal society and in that ostracization has become withdrawn but it's also clear that at his core, he just wants to be _accepted._ When he brings the Savage back from New Mexico and becomes effectively his curator, he seizes on this newfound social position to behave like every other person around him -- for a moment, he is fully accepted in the society at large and by all appearances he is never happier in the book than he is then.

But he has sooo many negative qualities and ones I share, too. He has this cynic vibe where he can't help but see the worst in everything. He clearly feels and feels deeply like he's a frustrated loser, but habits that have been instilled in him since childhood probably ensure that he remains a frustrated loser. He tends to play up his triumphs and downplay when things don't go so well for him, something his friend dislikes -- but that's something I do too. And in the end, when he gets transferred to Iceland, Mustapha Mond remarks that it's a blessing in disguise (because the islands are where the society shunts all its misfits a.k.a the people who are actually interesting) but he is unable or unwilling to see it for what it is. I keep finding myself wondering what the point Huxley is making with Bernard's character arc, but he's clearly the most miserable character in the book, and unlike Helmholtz who eventually realizes beauty needs suffering and so accepts exile gracefully, Bernard ultimately doesn't seem to _learn_ from his experiences ... which makes it even more uncomfortable that I relate to him so deeply.


----------



## Krayfish

RGB said:


> I've never listened to someone talk about that, but how do you relate to Sp Dominance if you don't mind?


For me, my relation to sp dominance comes primarily from knowing that I have an excessive need for both physical and mental security. While I enjoy exploration and am more hasty than thought out, I've always been excessively risk adverse and security seeking, especially in the physical world. As much as I dislike it, I'm one to stay in my comfort zone if not pushed to move away from it and can be consistently be counted on to "play it safe," even in situations where I could probably manipulate my environment enough to walk out unscathed. This even applies to social situations to a degree, as I'm tend to be pretty reserved, strong with boundaries, and slow to open up. I wouldn't call myself practical, but I've always been really good with my money and differentiating between what I want and what I need. I dislike spending money (despite only once being in a situation where my family was running short), and often find myself living very moderately. As a weird aside, other people as well as my own parents have come to me fairly often to discuss paperwork and practical matters (ie. wills, housing plans, how to spend money) before going to even each other despite me really having very little experience with any of that because I come across as somewhat conscientious (though in reality I'm a mess) and have "the personality" to be able to handle that sort of stuff. 

sp blinds always baffle me because of their ability to just ignore those things and the fact that they can indulge and still feel semi-decent afterwards. I always question how they've managed to survive this far lol


----------



## ElectricSlime

knife said:


> So I just finished _Brave New World_ and found myself relating to an uncomfortable degree to Bernard Marx ... particularly his weaknesses (and there are many). He has this nature where he is ostracized from a highly communal society and in that ostracization has become withdrawn but it's also clear that at his core, he just wants to be _accepted._ When he brings the Savage back from New Mexico and becomes effectively his curator, he seizes on this newfound social position to behave like every other person around him -- for a moment, he is fully accepted in the society at large and by all appearances he is never happier in the book than he is then.
> 
> But he has sooo many negative qualities and ones I share, too. He has this cynic vibe where he can't help but see the worst in everything. He clearly feels and feels deeply like he's a frustrated loser, but habits that have been instilled in him since childhood probably ensure that he remains a frustrated loser. He tends to play up his triumphs and downplay when things don't go so well for him, something his friend dislikes -- but that's something I do too. And in the end, when he gets transferred to Iceland, Mustapha Mond remarks that it's a blessing in disguise (because the islands are where the society shunts all its misfits a.k.a the people who are actually interesting) but he is unable or unwilling to see it for what it is. I keep finding myself wondering what the point Huxley is making with Bernard's character arc, but he's clearly the most miserable character in the book, and unlike Helmholtz who eventually realizes beauty needs suffering and so accepts exile gracefully, Bernard ultimately doesn't seem to _learn_ from his experiences ... which makes it even more uncomfortable that I relate to him so deeply.


It's been over a year since I've read it but from what I remember, Bernard was a case of sour grapes who also wanted in on the cake. He entertains all these lofty love ideas at the beginning of the novel and preaches them to that one promiscuous girl he likes, but as soon as he actually gets social success, all of this vanishes and he starts indulging 100%. As you say, it's also the portion of the book where he's at the apex of his satisfaction and he's shown in his most pathetic light after he loses that. 

He's not unlike those lower income families who, when interviewed, claim to deplore the rich because they're corrupted by their money and don't enjoy the "true" love that they do (which may be true in some cases but surely not all). And yet the reality is that most of these families would jump on an opportunity for social ascension, which is why they buy their lottery tickets. Heck it's not hard to find cases of someone winning and leaving his/her partner in the dust for someone hotter, not that the divorced could hold her side in court with the resources she has. 

Helmholtz on the other hand has it all from brains, to physical attributes to social standing. And yet he's not chained by all those shallow, vain desires that plague Bernard, and on top of that, he may be the bravest and most noble character of the story. Which goes to show that not all are crooked by their advantages or improved by their disadvantages. Virtues come from the person herself, not her place in the eyes of others.

I don't remember much from the Savage aside from him learning through Shakespeare and whipping himself at the end...

Anyway, I think it's normal for you to identify with Bernard. He's human, all too human. Most people are naturally closer to him than Helmholtz. I've seen you beat yourself up over those "vain" desires a few times here, and this shows also through your disliking of type Three elements in you that you bring up. I think you're being too hard on yourself dude, there's nothing wrong with having such thoughts and impulses. The ID is the first part of our psyche that gets developed according to Freud after all. You seem well wishing so I say as long as you don't directly harm anyone, what's wrong with wanting more for yourself in the gratification department ?


----------



## Dangerose

forgive this but something about the above reminded me of this song and how much I relate to Leonard Cohen _in a way_ (possibly not as a person, but his songs)

vaguely considering 4 again, guess it came with considering sp again, could just be that he writes beautiful universal music

(Lana del Rey who I'm sure is a 2 said: "You were the only person I ever really felt spoke my language") which...in a way I would agree with, when I was a teenager I would have said he spoke my language

As a person he makes me a little uncomfortable, not sure why or how to explain it, similar to how 4 as a type makes me uncomfortable, there's something...unsettled and uncomfortable about him, when I hear stories about his life I usually don't like them

this song anyways maybe has both of those things, the thing I relate to and the thing I don't like






Especially:

"For like a baby, stillborn
Like a beast with his horn
I have torn everyone who reached out for me"

used to skip this song because I hated to think about this, not sure how to explain

edit: well partly just because it's a really sad topic that

would that make sense for integration line to 4? used to think it felt like, many of his songs were about me (obviously not actually me) but mocking a bit, looking down, feel like his music understands me and disregards me, anyone feel that way about their integration type?

Like hm, not feeling it so much right now but often think about it

What d'y'all think is his MBTI/instincts?


----------



## JFrombaugh

Okay...

I am one of many introverts who always seemed to test as 4 or 5, and for the longest time I thought I was one of those types because of this.

When I took Night Queen's Enneagram questionnaire on this site, she seemed pretty convinced that I was a 6w5 (so/sp no less!).

And the majority vote when I posted my selfies on this thread - http://www.personalitycafe.com/what...-instinctual-variants-face-typing-thread.html - was sp/so.

But I have been in touch with Flower Hat and a couple others through PM over the last couple of months, and I can now confirm that my correct type is *9w1 sp/sx*.

And my head tritype fix is 5, not 6. Why? Because my core fear relating to anxiety is being overwhelmed by the world and unable to deal with life, rather than being without support or security. Simple as that.​
I remember I was undergoing a lot of college-related stress at the time that I took Night Queen's questionnaire, and so if a lot of my answers did in fact sound 6ish, that might explain why, because 6 is 9's disintegration point.

As for instinctual variants, I debated whether I was so-second or sx-second for awhile with Flower Hat, and then when I read this thread - http://www.personalitycafe.com/enne...m/1254962-sx-last-vs-so-last-awkwardness.html - I immediately realized that I was sp/sx, because I could relate to virtually everything that the so-last posters wrote about how and why they feel socially awkward, while 90% of what Lord Pixel (4w5 so/sp) wrote about how she experiences so-dom, made NO sense to me at all.

And that's all you guys are getting from me, because I know that if I say any more, somebody on here will try to "prove" why I am a 6w5 sp/so. :tongue:


----------



## Dangerose

@JFrombaugh well the Night's Queen is an idiot and should not be taken too seriously :cheerful:

Can definitely see 9


----------



## Darkbloom

edit: don't think anyone can explain what sp is


----------



## Lunacik

Nissa Nissa said:


> edit: @*RGB* off the cuff that sounds more Alpha than Beta to me?
> but I'll look more at it tomorrow, too tired to think properly atm


 @*Nissa Nissa*, can you please elaborate on your insights into why you believe my prior statements appear to be Alpha Quadra according to your perspective?

I may have attempted to arrive at a conclusion too swiftly.

And thank you for your feedback.


----------



## Dangerose

I really want to go swimming, at the beach, but I have no idea how 

Went to the trouble of buying a swimsuit a couple of WEEKS ago because I had been a hotel that had a pool and was sad I couldn't try it out, and been looking for opportunities, now I'm at the seaside and it's so sunny and nice and there are people swimming in the water but it feels so weird to swim at the beach alone, no idea how to get around it

Wish there was an empty beach but I'd assume an empty beach was empty because of dangerous tides

I wish I'd learned to be a person once

(does feel type related btw, like N > S at least, I know it sounds like general anxiety but idk)

edit: feels more Nish than 4ish but I do wonder if it's 4ish at all, people on beaches always look like _fundamentally different people to me_, who I'm almost jealous of, feel like some people just look at them and go 'oh people on the beach that could be me or could not be huh' but I don't feel like that at all

And when I actually do go to the beach or something, with friends, it feels like 'whoa people will be seeing me and thinking i'm just one of the people!' and it's so strange and amazing

Exaggerating slightly but not that much

always have strong feeling that I'm wasting my life and that I don't want to 

maybe makes my philosophy more 7ish than I am
@Vixey you thanked too soon
was going to add, you really inspired me about the sea
not enough but enough to make me a little more annoyed at myself than I otherwise would be


----------



## Darkbloom

@Nissa Nissa was just meaning to say, it'd be hard for me too but there's nothing in this world stronger than my desire to swim once I'm near the sea :hellokitty:
(well used to be like that, hope I still am)

You get around it by putting on your swimsuit and going straight into the water :butterfly:
Most annoying kind of advice but don't think there is any other :/, and hate the idea of there being sea and me not being in it so much+I noticed I always feel like I'm letting down everyone who's ever told me "Swim enough for me too" lol, and once you're in the water deep enough it stops feeling like it's at the beach.
But you are talking to someone who never goes anywhere.


Curious why Nish?
And agree it feels type related in some way, the way people describe things that are just general anxiety feels different to me.


----------



## Dangerose

Vixey said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://www.personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Nissa Nissa</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> was just meaning to say, it'd be hard for me too but there's nothing in this world stronger than my desire to swim once I'm near the sea :hellokitty:
> (well used to be like that, hope I still am)


That's a good thing to have)



> You get around it by putting on your swimsuit and going straight into the water :butterfly:
> Most annoying kind of advice but don't think there is any other :/, and hate the idea of there being sea and me not being in it so much+I noticed I always feel like I'm letting down everyone who's ever told me "Swim enough for me too" lol, and once you're in the water deep enough it stops feeling like it's at the beach.
> But you are talking to someone who never goes anywhere.


Yes, it's good advice, gave myself some similar advice, couldn't actually find a beach though suddenly after passing like 20 so just walked around in my 'obviously about to go swimming' outfit

And now I think it's too late, I mean there's still sun but it's strange to START swimming this late (but I did something fun anyways, so not a total waste)

(Hate feeling in general of being inside when there's sun at all, feel guilty (not exactly the right word) even right now but I spent a lot of time doing things today



> Curious why Nish?
> And agree it feels type related in some way, the way people describe things that are just general anxiety feels different to me.


Well maybe not N but I feel like there's a veil between me and the real world a bit, like I found this song which is based on the end of Ulysses, sexier than what I mean but :/:






Just this thing: 'stepping out of the page into the sensual world' feels a bit like it, today I went to a James Joyce museum and it was great and then I came out and everyone was swimming and I wanted to join them, at that moment mostly because people were swimming in Ulysses there and I didn't have a swimming suit at the moment but I'd been thinking of bringing one and I had chosen not to, felt like a metaphor for it

I mean obviously I'm not as philosophical or 'on the page' as James Joyce so maybe it's not exactly Nish but I often feel like I get trapped by ideas, not smart ideas but it's like even when I want to go swimming it's like I have to make it a royal decree from myself to myself, it becomes an idea and I'm not really spontaneous, I'm always proving a point to myself and not really doing anything

Plus, hm, went to the beach with a coworker at my last job and he had a lot of opinions about beaches that I did not have, we were on one beach and I thought it was cool and we ended up getting in some of an argument because I wanted there and he wanted to walk on the road walked opposite ways and then it turned out there was a river in the middle of the beach I couldn't get across so I had to run and catch up with him :blushed:, then we came to the other one and he was like 'wow, this beach is so much better than the last one!' and I didn't see that much of a difference, so I said 'oh but it's the exact same basically' and he brought that up several times as somewhat unbelievable, felt really like a Sish thing I was missing (reminded me a lot of my (ESTJ?) friend who has a lot of opinions about beaches and restaurants and such that I don't, and it feels really truly Si, I have opinions but they're based on something...different)

I don't really have 'this is a good beach this is a bad beach'

But I don't know it's a feeling of disconnection to the outside world, love the idea of enjoying things but I'm never sure if I am, it's like I'm always trying to reach out to the physical world but it's difficult for me, I'm never sure if I'm experiencing things or not

not sure if that makes sense, just the thoughts I have on the matter atm


----------



## Dangerose

@RGB looked back and no, actually I'd misread your post :blushed:

No opinion on your MBTI/Socionics, what you wrote about sounds like 9 conflicts in general 
@JFrombaugh looked over your questionnaire again and actually I'm a little embarrassed I said 6 before, 9 feels like the obvious choice


----------



## Lunacik

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*RGB* looked back and no, actually I'd misread your post :blushed:
> 
> No opinion on your MBTI/Socionics, what you wrote about sounds like 9 conflicts in general


Lol it's okay. Thanks.
-----------
Cat made me laugh, hahaha.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

@*Nissa Nissa* think Cohen is INFJ/IEI, definitely see a lot of Fe, not sure on instincts, but I want to say sp/so? He doesn't seem social-last, but sx-last doesn't really feel right either.  He seems like more of the stoic, enduring sp-4 than the others and more syn-flow too. I've never really listened to his music before besides a few well-known songs, though. 

And you went to the James Joyce museum!? :shocked: If I wasn't on my phone I'd insert a Grease gif..."Tell me more, tell me more!" 

Trying to remember beach-related lines: "Seaspawn seawrack..." And then there's Sylvia Beach who published Ulysses...!


----------



## JFrombaugh

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*JFrombaugh* looked over your questionnaire again and actually I'm a little embarrassed I said 6 before, 9 feels like the obvious choice


Do you remember which of my answers said so-dom to you? So-last vs sx-last was harder for me to figure out, I honestly feel like I suck at both LOL.

I also feel like Type 9 in general can easily be mistyped as not-so-last just because it tends to concern itself with so-related issues as a way of keeping the peace, as it were. I feel like if I wasn't a 9, I would unintentionally get into conflicts much more frequently by being blunt, brutally honest, and saying weird or inappropriate things, but my core type's desire not to hurt other peoples' feelings takes some of the edge off of that.

I can't fully remember what exactly I wrote on there, but I seem to remember mentioning how I wanted to move to the Pacific Northwest because I've never cared for Texas' culture, feeling like it doesn't suit my character. That combined with the fact that I showed some apparent concern about group dynamics and authority made some other people pin me down as sp/so or so/sp as well, because so types will willingly reject groups that they don't mold with, as kind of a counter-social thing, as it were.

But honestly, I would say that the reason I feel this way has more to do with the general motif of Texas, and just missing the natural beauty of the Lake Tahoe area. A part of me also wants to be free of the pressure to make small talk by the water cooler or respond to that Facebook posting. I just want to go in to work, put in my iPod buds, go home, and not feel guilty about not grabbing drinks with my coworkers at the end of the day. In my view, I'm not being rude, I'm just being selective about who I exert my energy around, and socialize with.

BTW, I remember you told me that you were jealous of people who DIDN'T live in the Pacific Northwest, LOL. So...would you say that Seattle is more sp/so or sp/sx? Because whenever I've visited, I've always felt like it would fit me perfectly, if only rent was not out of control up there and jobs in my field didn't have such a high barrier to entry. Tahoe & Colorado have great mountains & forests, but the PNW's are just incomparable. And Seattle's quietly friendly culture more closely matches my own definitions of "friendliness" that I probably mentioned in your questionnaire compared to Texas' louder and more bombastic approach.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> @*Nissa Nissa* think Cohen is INFJ/IEI, definitely see a lot of Fe, not sure on instincts, but I want to say sp/so? He doesn't seem social-last, but sx-last doesn't really feel right either.  He seems like more of the stoic, enduring sp-4 than the others and more syn-flow too. I've never really listened to his music before besides a few well-known songs, though.


Fe, really? :O
(Don't have an opinion but that surprises me somehow, I'm curious how but I know you're busy!)
Keep thinking sp/so too, he really screams sp 4 to me I agree, but the sx-last does confuse me a bit, so that's exactly where I'm at 
Thanks for weighing in)



> And you went to the James Joyce museum!? :shocked: If I wasn't on my phone I'd insert a Grease gif..."Tell me more, tell me more!"


Well, I went to a James Joyce museum, it's in Buck Mulligan*'s tower :lovekitty: so got to read the first chapter in the places where they happened, which is always exciting for me 

and letters, books, death masks, really nice museum)

*Oliver St. John Gogarty's and Joyce stayed there for 6 days



> Trying to remember beach-related lines: "Seaspawn seawrack..."


_Airs romped around him, nipping and eager airs. They are coming, waves. The whitemaned seahorses, champing, brightwindbridled, the steeds of Mananaan._

(that wasn't from memory haha but it's nice)



> And then there's Sylvia Beach who published Ulysses...!


ahh, good connection


----------



## Dangerose

JFrombaugh said:


> Do you remember which of my answers said so-dom to you? So-last vs sx-last was harder for me to figure out, I honestly feel like I suck at both LOL.
> 
> I also feel like Type 9 in general can easily be mistyped as not-so-last just because it tends to concern itself with so-related issues as a way of keeping the peace, as it were. I feel like if I wasn't a 9, I would unintentionally get into conflicts much more frequently by being blunt, brutally honest, and saying weird or inappropriate things, but my core type's desire not to hurt other peoples' feelings takes some of the edge off of that.


Ok, not sure if I disagree or not yet - hopefully I'll get a chance to respond fully tomorrow! (tired/should sleep)



> I can't fully remember what exactly I wrote on there, but I seem to remember mentioning how I wanted to move to the Pacific Northwest because I've never cared for Texas' culture, feeling like it doesn't suit my character. That combined with the fact that I showed some apparent concern about group dynamics and authority made some other people pin me down as sp/so or so/sp as well, because so types will willingly reject groups that they don't mold with, as kind of a counter-social thing, as it were.


I'm curious what about the culture of Texas doesn't mesh with you?
(don't know that much about Texas)



> But honestly, I would say that the reason I feel this way has more to do with the general motif of Texas, and just missing the natural beauty of the Lake Tahoe area. A part of me also wants to be free of the pressure to make small talk by the water cooler or respond to that Facebook posting. I just want to go in to work, put in my iPod buds, go home, and not feel guilty about not grabbing drinks with my coworkers at the end of the day. In my view, I'm not being rude, I'm just being selective about who I exert my energy around, and socialize with.


Ok, sp 9 makes sense 
Does Texas have a very involved culture to you then, btw?



> BTW, I remember you told me that you were jealous of people who DIDN'T live in the Pacific Northwest, LOL. So...would you say that Seattle is more sp/so or sp/sx? Because whenever I've visited, I've always felt like it would fit me perfectly, if only rent was not out of control up there and jobs in my field didn't have such a high barrier to entry. Tahoe & Colorado have great mountains & forests, but the PNW's are just incomparable. And Seattle's quietly friendly culture more closely matches my own definitions of "friendliness" that I probably mentioned in your questionnaire compared to Texas' louder and more bombastic approach.


I only visited Seattle once for a couple hours during a layover, so I can't really speak for the culture - I was kinda scared walking around tbh, my parents and brother visited for a couple of weeks and they said they loved it but were also suddenly yelled at by people in the street a couple times :O so my general impression isn't really friendly at all tbh, want to visit again though (one of my favourite shows is 'Frasier' and it's set in Seattle)

[long rant]


----------



## JFrombaugh

Nissa Nissa said:


> I'm curious what about the culture of Texas doesn't mesh with you?
> (don't know that much about Texas)


Judging by what you wrote about Oregon, I think you would like Texas much better, ironically. :wink:

Texas is the exact opposite of Oregon in terms of how much it feels like a "real place". Very culturalistic, even xenophobic. You see the Lone Star flag flying EVERYWHERE in Texas, and even the signs that tell you not to litter have the tone of a cheap bully ("Don't mess with Texas"). I've always found the overall chest beating & large number of people who have an "I'm better than you" attitude about being from Texas to be extremely off-putting.

Also, if you care about the environment or are pro gun-control, you might want to keep those beliefs to yourself unless you live in Austin. Just a heads up if you ever visit sometime...

But here's the thing: Some people interpret friendliness as bombastic, boisterous and touchy-feely. Others view friendliness as quiet, reserved, and respectful of the other person's personal boundaries and space. Depending on your personality and world view, one will seem inherently “better” than the other.

My experience is that people in Seattle are friendly in the quiet, polite sense, but if you're extroverted I've heard that they can definitely come off as very cold and distant.

People in Texas for the most part are friendly in the extroverted sense, but also often loud and brash. It feels to me like Texas very much seems to cultivate and cater to the Type A personality. It's one of those states that most people either love or hate, and IMO it either suits your personality perfectly, or it intimidates and overwhelms you to the point that you just can't wait to move somewhere else. 

I would say that the general tritype of Texas is something like 8w7 - 2w3 - CP 6w7 so/sx.

And there's my Texas rant for you. :tongue:

As for so-second vs sx-second, Flower Hat gave me this interesting question to help me decide that I thought maybe you'd be interested in, since it reminded me of your questionaire:



> You attend a big party - assuming that NOBODY knows anybody at that party, how would you go about socializing? Is socializing even a concern of yours? If you decide to socialize, what makes you want to do it?


I told her that first off, this couldn't happen, because I am very introverted and do not like parties at all. But if it somehow did - let's say I was mysteriously teleported to the party as a divine psychological experiment or something (LOL) - then...

Socializing would be a non-concern for me unless I either see somebody attractive who I would like to get to know better on a personal level, or I overhear some people talking about a shared interest, hobby, or passion, which I can then chip in and share some of my own insights about.

Flower Hat told me this sounded more sp/sx than sp/so, because although sp-dom would be the most comfortable being the loner sitting in a corner, if loneliness did kick in, so > sx would try to make themselves known to everybody at the party to feel more secure, whereas sx > so would want to socialize with intent and home in on whoever catches their eye.

Would you agree with this?


----------



## Dangerose

@JFrombaugh well I wouldn't consider xenophobia one of the things that makes somewhere a real place :laughing: but yeah get what you mean, tend to think of Texas I think as being 'actually somewhere'

(grew up in Arizona btw, like it so much better, I love the nature and the people and just the way things are)

But yeah I think if I lived in Texas I'd probably want to leave . . . but I'm not sure, I think there's an interesting culture.

I do tend to prefer living somewhere where I can go about my business and be left alone for the most part, don't think 'bombastic, boisterous and touchy-feely' is my ideal  but it seems like turning a stony face to two teenagers saying 'Happy Easter' to you, in a church, on Easter, is going too far....:laughing:

Arizona has a better vibe to it to me (idk if you've been there), wouldn't say people are as...so/sx...right off but there's more of a feeling that you _could_ get drinks after work, or that there's a possibility for genuine connection, it's warmer (depends on where tho). So I prefer it a bit

all I have time for atm

edit: party thing doesn't sound sx>so though, think it's true for most people
but I don't know what the instincts are really


----------



## JFrombaugh

@*Nissa Nissa*

I can't really explain it other than I feel like a I'm a cube and many Texans are the toddler trying to force me into a star-shaped hole.

Also, I realize that not ALL Texans are like this, but enough are that caricatures like Sandy from SpongeBob and the Rich Texan from the Simpsons were created for a reason.

Like I said, you're not the only one on here who has typed me as so/sp or sp/so due to my seeming focus on so-related things, which a so-laster can struggle to even be fully aware of in the first place. But even so, I can completely relate to Asd456's posts on pages 5 & 6 of the aforementioned sx-last vs so-last thread about feeling overwhelmed in a crowd, and feeling like he has to break things down into one-on-one communication or he just doesn't know what to do (even though he says he's an ENTJ!). I can also relate to what you said in that same thread about desiring connection with individuals, but having no idea how to go about getting it.

And also, I am very individualistic for a 9 and tend to identify with individual people, rather than groups. My Dad is a so-dom, and he has trouble understanding why I haven't joined a hiking club to meet people who share that interest with me, no matter how many times I try to tell him that the point of hiking, in my mind, is to get away from all the noise of a crowd and fully immerse myself in nature.

But anyway, back to places to live...

I have driven through Arizona, but I don't know much about the culture there, nor would I ever consider living there because of how hot and dry the climate is. I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I have always actually preferred humid & rainy climates - another reason why I'm more inclined to move to the Pacific Northwest than say, Colorado. It makes things green, clean, and beautiful. Most people who don't like the Pacific Northwest, from what I hear, really hate the constant drizzle and gray skies and feel depressed because of it. But I would take that over 110 degrees, 10% humidity, and UV index of 11 any day.

My aforementioned so/sx Dad once joked to his friends on Second Life that Texas is like SoCal if it were run by ******** and oil company executives. I can definitely see that "so-dom counter-culture" attitude that others on this board speak of in him, and to be honest, I think just growing up with him has allowed me to take on some of that from him.

But the stereotype of the businesslike, pillar-of-society sp/so is hella not me.


----------



## Dangerose

JFrombaugh said:


> But I would take that over 110 degrees, 10% humidity, and UV index of 11 any day.


The dream :lovekitty:

(will respond to more later, and actually I like variety in weather)

(but I like to be tan )


----------



## d e c a d e n t

JFrombaugh said:


> But the stereotype of the businesslike, pillar-of-society sp/so is hella not me.


Do most SpSo people relate to that, though? (No opinion on your type, just sounds like the kind of thing that's not easily relatable regardless)


----------



## Paradigm

Remnants said:


> Do most SpSo people relate to that, though? (No opinion on your type, just sounds like the kind of thing that's not easily relatable regardless)


I don't think so. Not even SO/SP types do, typically. (We get a lot of counter-SOC people here, tbf.)

I see that kind of "cornerstone" stereotype as either SOC 3 or 9, depending on what cornerstone one is holding up. Not as a marker of type at all, but just as a concept.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Paradigm said:


> I don't think so. Not even SO/SP types do, typically. (We get a lot of counter-SOC people here, tbf.)
> 
> I see that kind of "cornerstone" stereotype as either SOC 3 or 9, depending on what cornerstone one is holding up. Not as a marker of type at all, but just as a concept.


Hm, I was thinking of the business tycoon, which is an SpSo archetype, but not something I see everyone relating to (I mean, most people aren't). Although I realize they might not have been talking about that exactly.


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> (the orange tic tacs are the best, always saved up to buy them as a kid and pretended they gave me magic abilities)
> 
> I'm a slow eater, always get compared to my grandfather for that, he chewed everything 100 times, ended up wearing his teeth down :O


If I tried to do that I'd probably decide it's better not to eat in the first place :laughing:
I'm always so impatient for the next bite, one of the things that sometimes makes me feel not very Si, tend to come across as not fully enjoying things but I think that's subjective.



> and it stresses me out when other people eat quickly, also when people drink too quickly, have a friend who will drink a glass of wine in one or two gos and it ruins the slow buildup of a fun tipsy atmosphere uffer:


Don't drink often but when I do I drink quickly, even like at home when dad forces me to drink a bit of whatever with him he's always shocked by how quickly I drink.
On rare occasions when I drink I try to drink slowly so I'd have that slightly tipsy feeling for as long as possible but it doesn't work very well.
(generally feel like I'm not the best person for slow buildup of things)


----------



## Hottest_Commie_Ever

1. INTP
2. INFP
3. ISFP
4. ISFJ
5. ISFP
6. ESFJ
7. ISFP

Order of types i'd genuinely thought i was. I almost went for INFJ somewhere between 2 and 4.

I guess living in boring, cold Canadian towns with poor asf parents for over 7 years of your life makes an extrovert feel less extroverted? Also thinking i was SF for so long was because of stupid comments like "you shouldn't do this because OTHER PPL will think this and that and ANXIETY ANXIETY ANXIETY"

People need to stop manifesting this planet with fear, that's what i'm saying.

Anyways, i'm pretty sure i'm ESTP now. Yay?


----------



## Hottest_Commie_Ever

Oh yeah, and type 2...9...undecided...7...1

Enneagram is even more confusing, but i'm such a perfectionist that i don't think i can ever let myself go enough to be a 7.

_*manifests even more fear in the world*_

_curses self_


----------



## Dangerose

@Vixey yeah it would probably stress me out to eat with you XD

(would like to start eating even slower, did it years ago as a way of eating less, because you experience more food, but fell out of the habit again, used to eat really slowly like half a piece of toast and lemon curd for the whole afternoon, it was nice, felt like a feast
@Hottest_Commie_Ever you sound stereotypically 6ish from these two posts but that's all I'm going on and I'm not sure what's going on

I can't tell if you are genuinely pro-communism btw or if it's a joke or a . . . statement? (I'm sure it's clear to those in the know but I'm perpetually out of the loop), curious))


----------



## Darkbloom

Nissa Nissa said:


> I can't tell if you are genuinely pro-communism btw or if it's a joke or a . . . statement? (I'm sure it's clear to those in the know but I'm perpetually out of the loop), curious))


Been wondering the same thing @Hottest_Commie_Ever 
(kinda thinking social 6w7 but I'm mostly just confused  )


(also he's a confusing man to me, can't tell if he was hot or not)


----------



## Lunacik

ElectricSlime said:


> Don’t apologize for being right.


Uncertainty regarding whether or not I was.


----------



## Paradigm

ElectricSlime said:


> True enough. I do think that explaining why I type Amanda Palmer as 3 rather than 4 makes for good food for thought for someone in that predicament.
> Namely in the way the image is managed.


Ehhh I disagree... Firstly, it's off-topic because you're not comparing her* to a specific member of PerC who you're helping find a type (right?), and secondly discussing celebrities _here _ makes it difficult to find information about celebrities someone might find useful/interesting yet expect completely elsewhere. 
*Well, I shouldn't limit this to just whoever Amanda Palmer is. Anyone famous, really.

I'm definitely in agreement that 3 should be talked about more and it's not bad to bring it into the spotlight, but I don't see how a celebrity typing is helpful for the "common" person; like, a celebrity 3 and the 3 down the road barely compare. For example... I like your point about "filter" vs. "rawness," although I think it can get lost because "eh I'm not successful enough" or something, you know?



Nissa Nissa said:


> @Paradigm not sure if you saw it so awkward apology but I am sorry for my rude comment. Our personalities are not similar but I enjoy that about you
> edit: still sounded really passive-aggressive, not my intention


I did not, but I'm sure it was suitably "scathing" as per your typical responses when called out. Apology not accepted, because this dance is wearing, and it's not like respect has been a strong point.


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## Paradigm

Hottest_Commie_Ever said:


> I guess living in boring, cold Canadian towns with poor asf parents for over 7 years of your life makes an extrovert feel less extroverted? Also thinking i was SF for so long was because of stupid comments like "you shouldn't do this because OTHER PPL will think this and that and ANXIETY ANXIETY ANXIETY"
> People need to stop manifesting this planet with fear, that's what i'm saying.


...Wat?

Um, do you have an anxiety disorder or something? I'm not sure I 100% get what makes you anxious from this short bit alone. 

What do you think your likeliest Enneagram types are, then? Why not 7? Why 1? Why or why not 6? (Idk 6, I mean "anxiety" is such a huge buzzword that I rule out 6 if someone says "I have anxiety" most of the time.) What about SOC 7?

And, uh... How old are you, ish?


----------



## Hottest_Commie_Ever

Paradigm said:


> ...Wat?
> 
> Um, do you have an anxiety disorder or something? I'm not sure I 100% get what makes you anxious from this short bit alone.
> 
> What do you think your likeliest Enneagram types are, then? Why not 7? Why 1? Why or why not 6? (Idk 6, I mean "anxiety" is such a huge buzzword that I rule out 6 if someone says "I have anxiety" most of the time.) What about SOC 7?
> 
> And, uh... How old are you, ish?


Oh, i didn't mean i have anxiety. My parents probably do, they make everything sound "scary" or "threatening", even meeting new people. I meant i didn't feel so extroverted because it's boring living here and there's not much to do if you haven't been brave enough most of your life to go out there and make friends, and also if you've become ultra-sensitive to others' feedback from your own lack of socialization.

Most parents worry a lot, but not many parents say "don't act too crazy at the party or people will call you weird" _every time_ you go to an event and "what the heck are you doing this impractical sh*t for? Go play some piano or the teachers will yell at you and everybody will think you're stupid" whenever you're doing some slightly ridiculous thing for fun. Comments like this, every day, every time, about every single stupid risk. They never let me take my own risks and i only ever took my first shower alone when i was 7.

As in, it's always possible that i have undiagnosed anxiety, but i'm usually the one to calm people down, but my parents are the ones infesting me and those around them with unrealistic, unsourced and ridiculous fear.

I'm 16, although i spit at the idea of telling people my age in a post like this, as i am further reinforcing the "angry teen" stereotype. Hey, can't be a calm teen when your parents could have easily chosen to use a condom before they fixed their own problems.


----------



## Hottest_Commie_Ever

Nissa Nissa said:


> @Vixey yeah it would probably stress me out to eat with you XD
> 
> (would like to start eating even slower, did it years ago as a way of eating less, because you experience more food, but fell out of the habit again, used to eat really slowly like half a piece of toast and lemon curd for the whole afternoon, it was nice, felt like a feast
> @Hottest_Commie_Ever you sound stereotypically 6ish from these two posts but that's all I'm going on and I'm not sure what's going on
> 
> I can't tell if you are genuinely pro-communism btw or if it's a joke or a . . . statement? (I'm sure it's clear to those in the know but I'm perpetually out of the loop), curious))


Hey there, as i explained in a response to Paradigm, i _may_ have the fear as a central issue but there may have been a misunderstanding with my wording. I meant that my parents are the ones influencing fear throughout everyday life. Sorry for the miscommunication.

However, perfectionism and constantly berating anything that's not good enough seems more important to me than security. I've had friends lecture me for jaywalking so i'm not the most fearful one around, haha.

Nah, for me it is a joke. Communism is commonly used for internet jokes but if you ever see a name like mine that sounds exaggerated in some way, it's probably a joke. For some people it is serious, i'm not sure, but i am never that serious about politics.


----------



## Hottest_Commie_Ever

Vixey said:


> Been wondering the same thing @Hottest_Commie_Ever
> (kinda thinking social 6w7 but I'm mostly just confused  )
> 
> 
> (also he's a confusing man to me, can't tell if he was hot or not)


Sorry for confusing all you forum peeps XD i guess most communists don't call themselves commies, and they definitely don't say exaggerated and teen-girl-stereotype stuff like "hottest xxx ever".

I like the way Che looked, but you're entitled to your own opinion


----------



## Lunacik

h


----------



## Paradigm

Hottest_Commie_Ever said:


> Oh, i didn't mean i have anxiety. My parents probably do, they make everything sound "scary" or "threatening", even meeting new people. I meant i didn't feel so extroverted because it's boring living here and there's not much to do if you haven't been brave enough most of your life to go out there and make friends, and also if you've become ultra-sensitive to others' feedback from your own lack of socialization.
> Most parents worry a lot, but not many parents say "don't act too crazy at the party or people will call you weird" _every time_ you go to an event and "what the heck are you doing this impractical sh*t for? Go play some piano or the teachers will yell at you and everybody will think you're stupid" whenever you're doing some slightly ridiculous thing for fun. Comments like this, every day, every time, about every single stupid risk. They never let me take my own risks and i only ever took my first shower alone when i was 7.
> As in, it's always possible that i have undiagnosed anxiety, but i'm usually the one to calm people down, but my parents are the ones infesting me and those around them with unrealistic, unsourced and ridiculous fear.


Ah, that makes it clearer, thank you. It sounds like your parents want you to be a SOC 1, kind of? And you might be - in a way, we're most all conditioned by our parents. You could be a head type, you kind of give me that impression, but I'm not entirely sure. Do you have a "type me" thread?
(PS, even as a 6w7 with 6w5 and 8w9 parents, I also calm my parents down. It's normal.)



> I'm 16, although i spit at the idea of telling people my age in a post like this, as i am further reinforcing the "angry teen" stereotype. Hey, can't be a calm teen when your parents could have easily chosen to use a condom before they fixed their own problems.


I wasn't going to suggest the whole "angsty teen" thing, but there's a reason "experts" and "enthusiasts" (which I probably fall into the latter category) suggest waiting to pick a type until you're over... eh, 22, 23. Your personality doesn't "settle" for a while, and you're very influenced by your family/environment until then, in most cultures anyway. You can make an educated guess, but it won't be a solid guess. 
Plus there's the crappy possibility of setting yourself up to fail, in a way, by trying to "live up" to something you aren't...

To use myself as an example, I tested as an INFP and I probably would've confused myself for some Withdrawn type. I'm neither, and didn't really realize I wasn't until I was ~23 and wasn't entirely confident about it until I was like, 26. I guess as a 6(w7) I'm rarely "confident" like that, but still. At 29, I've quite (imo) obviously set into the INTJ 6w7 "mold" (such as it is), but in the long-term I rather irked myself trying to rationalize INFP and whatnot.
This is a fairly common story, really.


----------



## Haludh

When it comes to determining core type, is it more reliable to type oneself according to descriptions of the types, or the more technical aspects of Enneagram (directions of integration, core fears, etc.)? If it's the latter, I believe I'm 1w2, but I don't relate to descriptions of 1 as much as ones of 6. If you're positive of your type, how did you determine it?


----------



## Paradigm

Haludh said:


> When it comes to determining core type, is it more reliable to type oneself according to descriptions of the types, or the more technical aspects of Enneagram (directions of integration, core fears, etc.)? If it's the latter, I believe I'm 1w2, but I don't relate to descriptions of 1 as much as ones of 6. If you're positive of your type, how did you determine it?


I tend to do it by the "technicalities" as you call them. So many of the behavioral aspects people/authors put onto types is often misinterpreted or misattributed or lost in translation, any number of things. In my opinion, all the types cannot be wholly understood by any one person, and the descriptions between authors (and even books by the same author) can vary drastically. It tends to mess with my thought of "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" thinking that people can so easily fit 9 (or 27 if subtypes are used) behavioral types, too. You could explain that away with additions like tritype, except no one else except the Faurves really does that, and they (arguably, especially) tend to ignore nuances when they do.

Plus, many of our coping mechanisms and such can be based on environmental-ish factors rather than something as plain as core type. For example, I withdraw, criticize, and/or rationalize before I project - yet, this would make me anything but a 6 if you were to follow conventional "literature." I also don't rely on others to "guide" me, instead relying on my own capability to reason. But I do and always have had a problem and "obsession" with Trust, and I am all the "technicalities" that make up 6; I can't really say that as easily with any other type. 

So, yeah. Technicalities rule by far, by my reckoning. I've been at the point where typing solely/mainly from behavioral aspects annoys the shit out of me for a while, but 99% of people do it, so... fuck.


----------



## Rouskyrie

At the moment, I currently type as 9w1 (with 2w1 and 5wcp6 fixes), but the issue there is that I seem more reactive than 9, 2, and 5 fixes would account for. Granted I do have a counterphobic 6 wing on my 5 fix, (If my self typing isn't horribly off) but I don't think that would explain it completely. I suppose my point is that I relate most to the way competency types function, but I relate most to the fears of the 9/2, and I would consider myself more reactive than positive outlook. I'm a little lost. 

Some side notes: 
- I relate to Positive Outlook in that I want to see the best of new situations, and I try to avoid negativity (Unless it would be helpful for what I'm trying to accomplish). I also like to avoid problems sometimes, but in the sense that I will walk away from a problem, forget about it for a few, then re-assess my angle and attempt to solve it. I also cannot stand the notion I've heard presented that pessimists "see reality more clearly than optimists" because technically, neither see reality more accurately, or even truly accurately because of the way they view situations. A part of me also feels like giving into negativity and failing to grasp more positive potential in a situation is.. wasteful and unproductive. 

- I relate to Reactive in that I want to make my voice heard, and often do so in a harsh and unnecessary way (Especially if I'm not getting through to someone). I find myself getting extremely frustrated at even minor things (Even if I don't always express that frustration openly). Additionally, I can't stand when someone tries to restrict or hinder me; Like trying to silence me from speaking, interfering with me learning about something; or merely letting me have fun in peace. If someone repeatedly interferes with me pursuing one of my interests, I'm known for overreacting and blowing up on them. But that's something I try not to do, as I know that most people aren't out to merely interrupt me for no reason. Apathy is also something that can cause me to overreact; I understand that people are interesting in some things and not others, but the blatant "I don't give a shit about anything", "It's meaningless, why try?" attitude makes me angry, (Especially when someone consistently says such things around me) because I don't like feeling as though someone is dragging me down with them. 

- I relate to Competency in that I strive to solve problems from a detached standpoint, and try not to let on just how worked up I am about something, because that's often not very productive. I don't really think that I operate within a specific system, per say, but I don't operate solely from my own perspective. I know where I stand, but more than that I know to search for other perspectives. 

In terms of the types' fears, I relate to them in this order: 9 > 2 > 5 > 1 > 4 > 7 > 8 > 3 > 6.


----------



## Lunacik

Typology...

That's it, I'm just going to learn and structure the concepts and say forget my own type for now.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Rouskyrie thinking maybe Social 9w8?
(don't know much about you so it could be completely wrong but I feel like people don't often type as that, w8 could account for reactivity and Social influence for looking 1-ish and relating to competency?)



Hottest_Commie_Ever said:


> Sorry for confusing all you forum peeps XD i guess most communists don't call themselves commies, and they definitely don't say exaggerated and teen-girl-stereotype stuff like "hottest xxx ever".


Well I feel like I would if I were a communist so it was confusing to me :laughing: , thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## Rouskyrie

Vixey said:


> @Rouskyrie thinking maybe Social 9w8?
> (don't know much about you so it could be completely wrong but I feel like people don't often type as that, w8 could account for reactivity and Social influence for looking 1-ish and relating to competency?)
> 
> Well I feel like I would if I were a communist so it was confusing to me :laughing: , thanks for clearing that up!


I could see how that would make sense, thank you. I'll look more into Social 9w8. Re-reading what I relate to regarding Reactive almost sounds double reactive, but maybe that's just me.


----------



## Hottest_Commie_Ever

Vixey said:


> Well I feel like I would if I were a communist so it was confusing to me :laughing: , thanks for clearing that up!


I wanted to just put "hottest commie" but i added the "ever" for exaggeration, but i guess everyone's different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ if i were a communist i would be much more serious lol


----------



## Daeva

The author of that article is correct.


Friendship is in the realm of socializing and relationships. Friendship is NOT in the realm of sexual attraction.
Even the "one best friend."

Though of course, in reality this is rarely such a black and white split and there will be tons of overlap with all the instincts, but when describing the instincts objectively as separate entities, then such boundaries must be laid clear.

So yes, a "beloved friend" and the feelings towards this relationship are of the Social instinct. Unless you secretly want to get into your friend's pants, that is - but then we're talking about the complications of the overlap of instinctual needs, which is impossible to avoid in reality. We are but human.


"Contact with others" and "intimacy" is only a human need because of the Social instinct that drives us. Nurturing a bond with another human being in order to feel a belonging, to feel connected. Social. Friendship, 'having each other's back,' sharing one's life, cohabitation,... social.

_****Note: "Intimacy" can be interpreted in various ways. Language is complex like that. There is social intimacy and there is sexual intimacy. The context dictates which version the author refers to. In this case, the author seeks to move away from the mainstream thought that intimacy=Sexual instinct, because many students of the Enneagram mistakenly infer from this that social intimacy is included in the Sexual instinct, when it evidently is not. I do believe that the author does it wrongly, as he does the exact same thing he hopes to avoid, just in the opposite direction. Intimacy belongs to both the Sexual and the Social instinct, it's just that the specific category differs based on motive and manifestation.****_

The Sexual instinct does not seek sustained contact or intimacy. Seduction and sex can involve elaborate interactions, including the "mating calls / mating dances" seen across species, but close bonds are not required for this. Displaying one's virtuosity and talents is part of this domain if the effort is in function of sexual desirability.

To tie this up, "one on one" relating largely involves the Social instinct because of the sustained bonding that is required for it, which is social in nature. Marriage, or any equivalent or other manifestation of this, is about cohabitation with another human being in order to share costs and benefits of living, and I am including the emotional costs and benefits in this as well. It is about sharing one's life. There is no explicit need for a sexual relationship here, but it absolutely CANNOT exist without the Social instinct at play.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*mistakenforstranger*
I think because the Social instinct is what makes us inclined to care about other people in the first place, and thus want to create bonds with them instead of just kill or fuck. Which then evolves into intricate webs of relations, society, politics and all that, but I see how the source of that is the capability to care about someone else. 

(Although well, I do think that "true intimacy" is something that goes beyond the instincts in a way, so I don't fully agree with that being Social either. Like if you are too caught up in your instinctual needs, that's going to get in the way of genuine connection, whether Sexual or Social.)

As for the display thing, I don't think he was talking about Trump exactly, but :laughing:


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## Paradigm

mistakenforstranger said:


> No, why would Social be about closeness and intimacy. I really :frustrating: at the idea that Social is about intimacy, and it isn't the first time I've heard it. So/sp usually is formal, even distant.


It's not, though. I don't care what the sources say, really; I disagree with that conclusion, and it seems like such a made-up conclusion in the first place. SO/SP is often very warm. SP/SO would, logically, be more distant because it's SP-first and boundaries, but of course if one "invites" you into their "SP" then it's usually cozy as fuck. 

Though as I think out loud about it, I'm not always sure "closeness" is a good word or indicator - as in, it's a failing of the English language, because everyone defines it different. You can, if you're perceptive and willing, see the difference play out in relationships, but to assign "closeness" to instincts seems... well, really misleading.
Note: I said nothing about the use of "intimacy."


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## Vaka

I don't know if this is because I'm sp second, but for me, sx is about something sustained in the way of relationships and even friendships. Depth, not breadth. I'm also a very all or nothing person so if it's not gonna be absolutely fulfilling, I likely won't have anything to give to sustain the relationship because it's just not giving me what I need. It'll only be draining. For that reason I have very very few people I'm actually close to and I may feel very fulfilled with just one person. However, in other experiences that satisfy the need for intensity, there may be more a tendency for breadth for me in that I can be very gluttonous, my own physical and emotional boundaries dissolve so I'm highly likely to do things that will leave me shattered in the end and I'll have to pick up all the pieces. Yet I think I enjoy the process of destruction and recreation and I do often say my 'process' is very chaotic

I do think it's true that if we're caught up in our instinctual needs, it'll probably work against us getting what we really need. That may be more of an sx 4 thing in my case, but I do know that I completely sabotage my own needs for such deep intimacy because it can lead to very toxic relationships and friendship as well. It's a really odd thing I'm trying to figure out right. While I'm almost always projecting this idea that the whole world is looking down on me, it becomes 10000x more potent in relationships and directed toward whoever I'm becoming close to. But once I separate myself from them, I stop comparing myself to them. It only starts picking up in intensity if I'm starting to get close to them which I'd guess means there's particular insecurities in feeling good enough to fulfill the sexual need for intimacy, which I do think is a sexual instinct drive 

So I can clearly see in my first relationship, I probably didn't actually love the girl, not how she deserved, because I was just so caught up in my own needs at that point and I wasn't aware of what was going on in me until it all ended


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## Vaka

In looking at my first relationship in retrospect...I find I loved that rush of desire and attraction but whenever the rush would fade as must happen since all of that is mostly fantasy, I'd start feeling really uncomfortable and disconcerted so I'd do all I could to get it back again. I think the need to sustain that initial honeymoon phase rush is because it satisfies something that has to do with the enneagram fixation. I've come to realize that's not real intimacy. It only feels like intimacy. Real intimacy is developed over time through darkness and through light, through the rushes and through the periods of time where it fades away 

I have this tendency to bleed things dry, listen to songs until they become white noise, do everything until it just becomes white noise, especially in less healthy states. It's intense, but it's not necessarily intimate because it's driven by attaining a kinda high. I've been developing some ideas on restriction. I hate restriction, but the truth is, restriction is a means of making the pleasure last, attaining something real from it rather than something that only satisfies for a moment at a time and then feels blank for months on end,...something that actually IS real

I still think intimacy is a drive with sx, but perhaps there's a fault in how it's attained and the second instinct needs to be developed in order to actually reach true intimacy, as well as becoming healthier in the enneagram fixations, of course


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## mimesis

Daeva said:


> The Sexual instinct does not seek sustained contact or intimacy. Seduction and sex can involve elaborate interactions, including the "mating calls / mating dances" seen across species, but close bonds are not required for this. Displaying one's virtuosity and talents is part of this domain if the effort is in function of sexual desirability.
> 
> To tie this up, "one on one" relating largely involves the Social instinct because of the sustained bonding that is required for it.


You basically define social instinct as 'sustaining' (pair) bonding, but social relations aren't necessarily focused on sustainability. That'd arguably be more of an Sp concern, seeing the relations as an extension of Self, though different from 'family' which is said to be the realm of Sp. 

But social relations, or cooperations can be opportunistic and specific. Social instinct could orientate to whatever the majority is heading at, or even like, jump of a cliff in mass.

So sustaining a pair bond, I'd see more in the realm of Sx and Sp, comparable with 'soul brothers' or 'sisters', when it's not explicitly sexual bonding and more like spiritual kinship. 

Which we can distinct from sustaining social relations/ cooperations/ affiliations/ alliances/ symbiosis. (and I agree with @*mistakenforstranger* Soc being cursory in terms of energy see: https://www.enneagram.net/subtypeschart.html)


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## Daeva

mimesis said:


> You basically define social instinct as 'sustaining' (pair) bonding, but social relations aren't necessarily focused on sustainability. That'd arguably be more of an Sp concern, seeing the relations as an extension of Self, though different from 'family' which is said to be the realm of Sp.
> 
> But social relations, or cooperations can be opportunistic and specific. Social instinct could orientate to whatever the majority is heading at, or even like, jump of a cliff in mass.
> 
> So sustaining a pair bond, I'd see more in the realm of Sx and Sp, comparable with 'soul brothers' or 'sisters', when it's not explicitly sexual bonding and more like spiritual kinship.
> 
> Which we can distinct from sustaining social relations/ cooperations/ affiliations/ alliances/ symbiosis. (and I agree with @*mistakenforstranger* Soc being cursory in terms of energy see: https://www.enneagram.net/subtypeschart.html)


No, that is not how I defined it, not even basically.

This idea of the special "one-to-one" is defined by sustained close bonding, and I argue that for this to happen the primary instinct involved has to be the Social instinct because the emphasis here is put on the bonding aspect. *Human bonding is exactly what the Social instinct is about.*

Neither the Self Preservation nor the Sexual instinct are about human bonding. Your 'soul brothers / sisters' are merely an extension of basic human bonding, emphasizing the strength of the bond. I don't see a reason why the Sexual instinct needs to be dominantly involved here, unless you can provide one?


(I also did not claim that the Social instinct cannot be opportunistic in its bonding.)

I see the Fauvres as a less-than-average source on the instincts.


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## mistakenforstranger

Daeva said:


> Friendship is in the realm of socializing and relationships. Friendship is NOT in the realm of sexual attraction.
> Even the "one best friend."


Yeah, I agree for the most part, but that wasn't what the author of the article was asserting. He said one-on-one relating is Social. That's different, and I think inaccurate:



> Most human beings generally prefer one-on-one relationships and connections, regardless of their dominant instinctual drive. What underlies or provides the motivation for those relationships varies a great deal, as does how much energy is devoted to pursuing and cultivating those relationships for Social or Sexual purposes. Healthy “one- on-one” relating requires all three instinctual drives and can have different motivations, but it is largely the domain of the Social Drive.





Daeva said:


> So yes, a "beloved friend" and the feelings towards this relationship are of the Social instinct. Unless you secretly want to get into your friend's pants, that is - but then we're talking about the complications of the overlap of instinctual needs, which is impossible to avoid in reality. We are but human.


I don't think you necessarily have to "secretly want to get into your friend's pants" for it to be sx, which I wouldn't deny is sx in that particular case, if the person was attracted to them, and wanted to be more than just friends, but what if you aren't _physically_ attracted to the friend (because we usually aren't always attracted to our friends in that way, especially if we're of the same gender/sexual orientation)? Some people have friendships with another person that may even rival the level of emotional "intimacy" to that of their partner (as in sharing things with them that they may never share with their partner, which definitely happens), but I think what makes it more sx as opposed to soc is the level of focus: Social would be more focused on relationships with the *group* of friends or with many more individuals, while sx would focus more on the one friend/partner and _deepening_ that relationship (like @*Vaka* describes) with the one (as opposed to the many), so I do think it is more about one-to-one relationships in sx-instinct, not Social. It makes me think of this scene from Mean Girls (Yes, Mean Girls is a valid source!) where Regina, a Social instinct, talks about her friendship with Janis, who I think is a sx-instinct, and you can see Regina is focusing on what the group thinks ("Janis, I can't invite you, because _they_ think you're a lesbian"), while believing Janis is obsessed and in love with her. So, that whole being obsessed with the friend, becoming jealous if they're turning their attention more to another (over you), I think could all be sx-instinct played out in the context of a friendship, among other reasons. It's difficult to discern, though, because introverts, in particular, often prefer one-on-one interaction with their friends, so I see that as more of the where the confusion could arise when sx is only defined as being a focus on one-to-one relationships.








Daeva said:


> "Contact with others" and "intimacy" is only a human need because of the Social instinct that drives us. Nurturing a bond with another human being in order to feel a belonging, to feel connected. Social. Friendship, 'having each other's back,' sharing one's life, cohabitation,... social.


So, would you say a sx/sp would be less focused on nurturing a bond with another if it's due to the Social instinct? No, the sx/sp is less focused on being _a part of a group._ Social is about group-level interaction. I agree, though, that feeling connected, belonging would be more Social, but doesn't everyone want that at some level? And why couldn't one seek that feeling of connection or belonging through a relationship with a romantic interest/partner or one friend, which would then be sx, for instance? 



Daeva said:


> _****Note: "Intimacy" can be interpreted in various ways. Language is complex like that. There is social intimacy and there is sexual intimacy. The context dictates which version the author refers to. In this case, the author seeks to move away from the mainstream thought that intimacy=Sexual instinct, because many students of the Enneagram mistakenly infer from this that social intimacy is included in the Sexual instinct, when it evidently is not. I do believe that the author does it wrongly, as he does the exact same thing he hopes to avoid, just in the opposite direction. Intimacy belongs to both the Sexual and the Social instinct, it's just that the specific category differs based on motive and manifestation.****_


Ok, but what does "social intimacy" even look like? At a certain point, a group can never be as intimate (if one keeps adding more and more people to it) as a one-to-one relationship.



Daeva said:


> The Sexual instinct does not seek sustained contact or intimacy. Seduction and sex can involve elaborate interactions, including the "mating calls / mating dances" seen across species, but close bonds are not required for this. Displaying one's virtuosity and talents is part of this domain if the effort is in function of sexual desirability.


Agree, if it's for the purpose of "sexual desirability", but I also think displaying one's talents can be related to Social, which was my point with Trump because he does that all the time and he isn't Sexual. It also sounds like a perspective that favors Extroversion, or is related to Type 3. I mean, what about that person who is merely sitting in a corner silently, pining for the girl/guy across the room, and is giving off a moody, mysterious vibe in order to attract them? That's still a "mating call" (if you will) strategy useful in this day and age that people use. You don't just have to be a flashy peacock to attract someone, and I doubt many introverted sx-types would be that way.



Daeva said:


> To tie this up, "one on one" relating largely involves the Social instinct because of the sustained bonding that is required for it, which is social in nature. Marriage, or any equivalent or other manifestation of this, is about cohabitation with another human being in order to share costs and benefits of living, and I am including the emotional costs and benefits in this as well. It is about sharing one's life. There is no explicit need for a sexual relationship here, but it absolutely CANNOT exist without the Social instinct at play.


An easier way to say it would be that marriage is a Social institution that recognizes one's bond before the law/government (again, Social), or in the context of the ceremony, usually among family and friends. I mean, it's inherently Social in that sense, but that doesn't mean a Sexual type would view the importance of marriage for that reason. Your reasons sound more for the purpose of Self-Preservation (costs of living).



Remnants said:


> I think because the Social instinct is what makes us inclined to care about other people in the first place, and thus want to create bonds with them instead of just kill or fuck. Which then evolves into intricate webs of relations, society, politics and all that, but I see how the source of that is the capability to care about someone else.


Yeah, but there has often been a lot of killing done for purely Social reasons, often one of the main reasons:








Paradigm said:


> It's not, though. I don't care what the sources say, really; I disagree with that conclusion, and it seems like such a made-up conclusion in the first place. SO/SP is often very warm. SP/SO would, logically, be more distant because it's SP-first and boundaries, but of course if one "invites" you into their "SP" then it's usually cozy as fuck


That's fair, but being formal/distant doesn't imply not warm. I mean, Oprah is a warm so/sp, which is more likely due to her cognitive function (Fe). 




Paradigm said:


> Though as I think out loud about it, I'm not always sure "closeness" is a good word or indicator - as in, it's a failing of the English language, because everyone defines it different. You can, if you're perceptive and willing, see the difference play out in relationships, but to assign "closeness" to instincts seems... well, really misleading.


You really don't think everyone knows what is generally meant by "closeness"? Can you clarify how it can be defined differently, or what would be a better word then? I mean, I definitely see sx-types as being concerned with how close they are to _another person_. I see it more as how is "closeness" applied in different contexts, like if you want to feel close and nurture relationships with all the members of a group that's more likely Social.


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## Paradigm

mistakenforstranger said:


> That's fair, but being formal/distant doesn't imply not warm. I mean, Oprah is a warm so/sp, which is more likely due to her cognitive function (Fe).
> You really don't think everyone knows what is generally meant by "closeness"? Can you clarify how it can be defined differently, or what would be a better word then? I mean, I definitely see sx-types as being concerned with how close they are to _another person_. I see it more as how is "closeness" applied in different contexts, like if you want to feel close and nurture relationships with all the members of a group that's more likely Social.


Actually, that's fairly close to what I was thinking people could (mis)interpret, yes. Or like that stupid stereotype that SX-types are the only ones capable of "true love" or "being passionate (of anything)." If the internet has taught me anything, it's that people are dumb and able (even wanting) to make all sorts of conclusions never intended. I realize that's rather condescending, but it's easy to get jaded and this week I don't have the energy to overcome being jaded. Like, I've never heard anyone use "formal" and "warm" in the same context; or, if I have, it definitely wasn't from someone who did a first-time (or even second) read of the material. Those two concepts are usually separate from people's minds. "Closeness" and "passion" are equally tied together as the other pair is separate. There's been a ton of threads, usually about SOC or SX, that could show why I'm so jaded about people's comprehension: because critical thinking is not common.

I don't know what exact term would be best, not off the top of my head. I think most people's concept of "friendship" would, indeed, fall under "SOC," but I admit I haven't recently thought of how to frame it in English because, as I said, the "feel" is different so it just hasn't been on my mind. Both SOC and SX will focus on people they feel close to, because humans tend to do that based on all kinds of reasons (comfort, anxiety, interest, sameness, etc), so it's hard to accurately say "oh yeah, SX will hone in on one person" and not have to surround it with a bunch of clarifying statements. We're all kind of doing that, really, from the article to us posting about it, so I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I suppose when I was thinking out loud, I was thinking of those lists people try to do where they list a bunch of random adjectives for each type. So it was probably off-topic entirely...

Meh, I should go to bed, but it's far too early so you get a post instead.


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## Coburn

Is it SP? I realize I enjoy relationships and connections with others, but they don't leave a deep impact on me. If any of my friends stopped contacting me, I would just sort of move on. I don't seem to be heavily invested in relationships to the point that their existence or any threats to them really bothers me.

Maybe most people are like that?


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## d e c a d e n t

@*Coburn*
Could see Enneatype influencing that (though I'm not sure how). I tend to get very attached to someone once a connection is created (whether I think of it as deep or not...), and it's rather inconvenient, as I expect more out of people than is ever realistic. 

I can resonate with what @*mimesis* said about Sp and wanting to sustain bonds too (perhaps what makes it Sp is the focus on the "sustaining" more so than the "bond")

(And could be Fi, or F-ish in general?)


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## Myrkur

I might be a 7w8 core, or have a 7w8 in my tritype. Bottom line, I am dead on that I have some kind of 8 or 7 wing somewhere, with a probable 5 fix.

Pleasure seeking, hedonism, alcohol, sex and drugs have been a main theme in my life for some period and I am very much into the neuroscience and philosophy of the relation between pleasure and pain. The people in my family tend to see me as the most unrestrained, rebellious, impulsive and anger prone person in the family, also they said that I don't let anything to be shelved or to be suppressed. Yesternight, a friend said to me when we were talking about the things that I haven't excessively, "Is there anything that you don't do in excess?" I responded by saying "I dunno... playing backgammon? Drinking melon tea?" 

He thinks I'll die young, I think if I bury him it'll be very funny, and I'll roll a joint beside his grave while holding onto my walking stick and laughing.

If my ponderings prove fruitful and if this isn't "just a phase", I'll probably create a type-me thread.

Stay tuned.


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## Lunacik

How do you type someone who has Dissociative Identity Disorder?


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## Paradigm

@mistakenforstranger
I may owe you an apology, as I was told my post was rude towards you. My immediate impression was that it wasn't, since very little if anything was directed at you as an individual, and I was very "in my head" about the whole topic. I seem to be doing that a lot this past year - not an excuse, but my health has declined quite a bit and my capability (and yeah, willingness) to externalize nicely/well tends to go down when I'm feeling poorly and/or tired. 



Coburn said:


> Is it SP? I realize I enjoy relationships and connections with others, but they don't leave a deep impact on me. If any of my friends stopped contacting me, I would just sort of move on. I don't seem to be heavily invested in relationships to the point that their existence or any threats to them really bothers me.
> Maybe most people are like that?


I can't relate, though I know people who would. It's hard for me to pinpoint any real connection between them... Maybe SOC? (But not necessarily SOC-first.) It might be more a Je thing, too? I'm that way with friends-of-friends and acquaintances, definitely, but not at all with people I call / think of as friends. I guess I tend to go all-or-nothing with my friends, and people can be both freaked out by it (sometimes) or forget completely that I do that because my demeanor "feels removed" or something. It has made me _feel like_ I care more than they do, plenty of times.

I'm hesitant to assign my behavior to things, but it's one reason I went with 6 + SP/SX over... anything else. I wouldn't be surprised if other types/instincts/etc felt similar.


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## Coburn

@Paradigm

What does all or nothing look like?

For me, I'm not necessarily less involved in my friendships. I am someone my friends turn to for advice or to talk about things that affect them. If they need help, I'm available. If they want to go something, I'm usually game.

But if they decided they were done and just drifted off, I wouldn't feel terribly moved by it.

I mean it would sting in that moment of realization, but then it would just be neutral. Okay, they're gone. Moving on. 

How does one invest themselves even more? What does that look like if actions are not enough?


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## Paradigm

Coburn said:


> What does all or nothing look like?
> For me, I'm not necessarily less involved in my friendships. I am someone my friends turn to for advice or to talk about things that affect them. If they need help, I'm available. If they want to go something, I'm usually game.


This is just my POV/opinion/etc, mind, so it may vary a lot (or a little) from everyone else. It's snowflakey as hell, but I've never really been the "normal" one in... anything. 

And I apologize that this got rambly.

So, to me, "all or nothing" tends to look... Well, I guess most people would interpret that as being "open/kind/self-sacrificing to a fault," but - I think - my strong SP limits that particular trait, along with the 'innate' belief I have that I must take care of myself before I can take care of anyone else. My brand of "all or nothing" doesn't seem very common, or rather, it can be a bit common but tends to be less discerning than mine and/or far more "self-sacrificing" (martyr-like). But, I _am_ willing to make what's mine is yours in most scenarios, if I know/love you. Unless, or up until, you take advantage of it, I will immediately help you in any possible way I can. I'll make efforts try to help fix any problem of yours, or (more commonly) teach you how to solve or find solutions. I'll go the extra mile to try to understand you and make you feel the best I can. I will, if possible, start including any important event(s) in your life into mine (or put a reminder in my phone to remember you'll be indisposed or give you well-wishing), as long I don't have to entirely go against my own beliefs. I will never abandon you and I will never forget you - my friends are far too precious to me to pretend otherwise. 

Maybe part of that sounds commonplace... But I get really upset by friends assuming "little things" don't matter. Blowing me off to not visit me, for example, in favor of visiting others. Forgetting my birthday is a big one, even if it's just saying "happy birthday" _without prompting_. Going back on promises fucks me off, as I give a lot of weight to being true to your word. What _really _gets me - and this may be less IRL junk and more online junk - is the feeling that, despite _saying _we're friends, "online friends" are still thought of as not as a true/real/close friend just because I don't see their faces daily... But I give them insane amounts of my energy because I think friends are incredibly precious, so _any _implication at all that I'm not as valued to them as they are to me just because "even though we talk every day/week, you're still miles away" is such a flimsy-ass excuse to me. I usually give more of my energy to them than their "IRL friends" do, but I'm still not good enough? Ugh.

...Okay that last was tangential. But it does all roll together in its own way. 



> But if they decided they were done and just drifted off, I wouldn't feel terribly moved by it.
> I mean it would sting in that moment of realization, but then it would just be neutral. Okay, they're gone. Moving on.
> How does one invest themselves even more? What does that look like if actions are not enough?


Well... I would say it depends on the situation. If it's someone ghosting you and you don't mind, then it doesn't matter since you don't feel strongly, right? Like, there's no reason to feel bad just because you don't feel bad, or to think that you have to feel upset over the ghosting. I suppose, what I'm getting at, is if I'm the one being ghosted then that's what hurts -- not the idea that one should always hurt _just because_ I would in some situations. 

If "not investing yourself" works for you, then it's okay. Less okay if _you're_ the one ghosting people, though again it depends on context and how the other person feels. (It takes me months to get into the all-or-nothing mindset, actually, and I have acquaintance-friends who I [hypocritically, probably] periodically 'ghost' or forget to contact, without any malice-related reasons at all. So while it is a big part of my relationships, it's not something that happens overnight.) I suspect, as I think I said, most people would agree with you, or do the same things themselves without necessarily realizing it... or maybe, hold everyone at a certain distance regardless. I'm not entirely sure what the majority preference is, but I get the impression mine isn't and yours is closer to it (though perhaps not the majority preference).


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## Paradigm

Myrkur said:


> I might be a 7w8 core, or have a 7w8 in my tritype. Bottom line, I am dead on that I have some kind of 8 or 7 wing somewhere, with a probable 5 fix.
> [...]
> He thinks I'll die young, I think if I bury him it'll be very funny, and I'll roll a joint beside his grave while holding onto my walking stick and laughing.
> If my ponderings prove fruitful and if this isn't "just a phase", I'll probably create a type-me thread.


A type me thread would be handy. It's hard to say from a small blurb. Obviously, you can't be a 7w8 with a 5 fix, so that'd be out. An 8 (and 7) core could also easily explain many 5/7 likenesses, as well, though it depends on why you think they're likenesses are applicable. 8 goes to 5 when unhealthy, for example, but 7 goes to 5 when healthy.



RGB said:


> How do you type someone who has Dissociative Identity Disorder?


Um... Well if this is a real question, then I would assume each identity has its own motivations, so their types may change depending on which personality (thus motivation) is present. But it might be easiest to either not type them at all, or type only the "dominant" or "real" personality, which may in itself prove difficult since mental health can make everything hard. (Like assuming many bipolar people are either 4 or 7 just 'cause they go from depressive to manic.)


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## Lunacik

Paradigm said:


> Um... Well if this is a real question, then I would assume each identity has its own motivations, so their types may change depending on which personality (thus motivation) is present. But it might be easiest to either not type them at all, or type only the "dominant" or "real" personality, which may in itself prove difficult since mental health can make everything hard. (Like assuming many bipolar people are either 4 or 7 just 'cause they go from depressive to manic.)


Lmao at the fact that someone replied seriously to this, thank you, this just made my night. xD

I was basically joking around. Your answer kind of makes sense though, but I don't know the first thing about D.I.D. so IDK. Lol. I've been losing interest in Psychology / Behavioral Sciences / etc. too much to bother.


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## owlet

Coburn said:


> Is it SP? I realize I enjoy relationships and connections with others, but they don't leave a deep impact on me. If any of my friends stopped contacting me, I would just sort of move on. I don't seem to be heavily invested in relationships to the point that their existence or any threats to them really bothers me.
> 
> Maybe most people are like that?


I can't speak for others, but I don't relate to that (falling out with friends makes me feel absolutely awful for a very long time). I'm not sure what it would be in terms of functions or instincts (I would think people of all instinctual stacks would have deep relationships, just with a different focus from each other). Do you feel very close to your friends emotionally?


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## Coburn

owlet said:


> I can't speak for others, but I don't relate to that (falling out with friends makes me feel absolutely awful for a very long time). I'm not sure what it would be in terms of functions or instincts (I would think people of all instinctual stacks would have deep relationships, just with a different focus from each other). Do you feel very close to your friends emotionally?


Good to know. You may be right, and it's not instinct related. Maybe just an offshoot of an enneagram-based fear/habit.

I suppose it's hard to guage how emotionally close I am. I talk about my life, I vent about the little things in the day that get to me (coworkers, mistakes, random mishaps). I enjoy the time and I appreciate when they listen to me. But I guess on some level I'm always a guest? I don't expect them to give me anything; I am happy when they do, the way you might be when a house guest brings you a nice surprise gift that wasn't required.

There is always that distance, I guess. 

Even with people I am closest to, I don't share things that really shake me emotionally unless that emotion is somewhere in the angry quadrant.

The person I'm mutually closest to once told me they don't have any secrets from me and feel comfortable telling me everything. I definitely can't say the same, although I consider this relationship the closest of any I have. It's not so much about not having secrets, so much as just...not being comfortable getting super personal? I talk about a lot. But I don't talk about things that really grab my emotional heart and squeeze. I guess those emotions are kind of sensitive for me and sharing them is highly uncomfortable.

There are times where I want to share those parts of me. But they're brief moments that last maybe half a day and come once or twice every six months. Then it gets washed away and I don't think about it for awhile. 

But going back to friendships. Sometimes my friends will act distant (if they're upset about something I've done or related to us) or they'll just tell me they're hurt or don't like things about me. My feeling is always the same: _okay. Make a decision to either stay or leave. I'm not going to beg you to stick around or try to make you see different. _

I mean, I'll offer to compromise where I think is reasonable because I think relationships require that to persist. I'm not unnecessarily stubborn or hard headed. If I've reasonably done something wrong I will work to make amends and change my behavior accordingly. But that's just part of what relationships require. I'm not doing it from a point of emotional need for them or their connection.

I also have a poor sense of perspective with where this is applied. If a friend is acting distant, I am already in that mindset of "_leave or stay. Don't walk the fence and expect me to go out of my way to placate you_." And this can be over something like they're unhappy I'm not going to go do some activity with them.

I'm not suggesting their reactions are unreasonable. They aren't. These aren't people who get mad or cut off contact over small things. They're rational, level-headed people. There's no reason to expect they'd end the relationship over something tiny. But I generally just assume they will and act accordingly. 

Maybe I care but don't have a real awareness of it? Or I don't care.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Paradigm said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> I may owe you an apology, as I was told my post was rude towards you. My immediate impression was that it wasn't, since very little if anything was directed at you as an individual, and I was very "in my head" about the whole topic. I seem to be doing that a lot this past year - not an excuse, but my health has declined quite a bit and my capability (and yeah, willingness) to externalize nicely/well tends to go down when I'm feeling poorly and/or tired.


That's fine. I didn't really take offense by it, and I appreciate the apology/clarification. I didn't feel like it was that important of a point to argue about either. Though, I do think this is true to my experience, at least compared to Socials whose focus tends to be more outwards and dispersed among everyone. 



Paradigm said:


> Both SOC and SX will focus on people they feel close to, because humans tend to do that based on all kinds of reasons (comfort, anxiety, interest, sameness, etc), so it's hard to accurately say *"oh yeah, SX will hone in on one person"* and not have to surround it with a bunch of clarifying statements. We're all kind of doing that, really, from the article to us posting about it, so I'm not saying it's a bad thing.


I had a Social 9 friend in college who was basically friends with everyone (I'm not even kidding, but I went to a smaller school. It still amounted to _a lot_ of people.), and would always form groups around him. My issue was more with the author of that article stating Social was one-to-one bonding, which honestly seems to me to be missing the point about Social. I also can't stand the way it's worded too, like "That's not Sexual, that's Social". Oh, really? :frustrating: He isn't the only one I've seen adopt that tone either. I really think the instincts are quite simple at the core, but people seem to make it more complicated than it really is, or exaggerate the distinctions (Sx is notorious for this...:bored, and how one author's take on it differs so drastically from another, especially once you bring in the idea of subtypes. Anyways, it's all just giving me a headache at this point, and I should focus on more important things in my life, but I can't determine mine throughout all of it, which is my main purpose in all of my questioning, since I feel like sp/so, which was what I was originally typing as, feels very off now. Haha, maybe you have a thought as to what mine are? :eagerness: (Though, you don't have to answer too, but I've never heard your opinion yet (if you have one), and would be curious).



RGB said:


> How do you type someone who has Dissociative Identity Disorder?





RGB said:


> Lmao at the fact that someone replied seriously to this, thank you, this just made my night. xD
> 
> I was basically joking around. Your answer kind of makes sense though, but I don't know the first thing about D.I.D. so IDK. Lol. I've been losing interest in Psychology / Behavioral Sciences / etc. too much to bother.


Well, Riso-Hudson, in their infinite wisdom (sarcasm), correlated DID/MPD to the lowest level of Type 9. 



> Unhealthy Levels
> 
> 
> Level 7: Can be highly repressed, undeveloped, and ineffectual. Feel incapable of facing problems: become obstinate, dissociating self from all conflicts. Neglectful and dangerous to others.
> 
> 
> Level 8: Wanting to block out of awareness anything that could affect them, they dissociate so much that they eventually cannot function: numb, depersonalized.
> 
> 
> Level 9: They finally become severely disoriented and catatonic, abandoning themselves, turning into shattered shells. *Multiple personalities possible.* Generally corresponds to the Schizoid and Dependent personality disorders


If you look on their website, they have a personality/mental disorder listed at the lowest level of each type: 5 is Schizoid or Schizotypal, 3 is Narcissistic, 7 is Bipolar or Histrionic, 1 is OCPD, etc. 

I think mental disorders should be really kept separate from Enneagram. Sure, I can see how those types would correspond to those disorders, but do they have any evidence that people of those types are prone to them, because if not, it's pretty irresponsible, even potentially dangerous. I mean, I could see a case where someone justifies their _actual_ mental disorder with Enneagram. I don't have NPD, I'm just an (unhealthy) 3!

Note: Actually, Naranjo was more the one to have started this trend, who as a psychiatrist applied his knowledge to Enneagram.


----------



## owlet

Coburn said:


> I also have a poor sense of perspective with where this is applied. If a friend is acting distant, I am already in that mindset of "_leave or stay. Don't walk the fence and expect me to go out of my way to placate you_." And this can be over something like they're unhappy I'm not going to go do some activity with them.


Thanks for going through it. Can you place exactly why you respond in the way you pointed out in the example above? It sounds like it could be 8ish in some ways (the idea of being completely independent and not 'needing' people so they can come and go as they choose), but I'm not sure.
Personally, I do relate to some of what you said with things like not sharing the deepest aspects of myself with people - I don't tend to share very deep things with friends at all, partly just because of not knowing how to and partly because of the worry they might not understand exactly what I'm getting at (and with sensitive topics, that would be too difficult).


----------



## Coburn

owlet said:


> Thanks for going through it. Can you place exactly why you respond in the way you pointed out in the example above? It sounds like it could be 8ish in some ways (the idea of being completely independent and not 'needing' people so they can come and go as they choose), but I'm not sure.
> Personally, I do relate to some of what you said with things like not sharing the deepest aspects of myself with people - I don't tend to share very deep things with friends at all, partly just because of not knowing how to and partly because of the worry they might not understand exactly what I'm getting at (and with sensitive topics, that would be too difficult).


I think on some sort of gut level, it feels manipulative. It's not, of course. Well, not always. But on the deepest level, it says "_you are not what I want. You are not what I wanted. Recognize my dissatisfaction and bend to it_."

My gut reaction is to reject the relationship altogether than pretend to be affected by it in ways I am not.

This is what feels so confusing. I can tell people I care about them and the relationship and I want to preserve it-- I've done this. But emotionally I'm dead to it. If they were to turn down my offers to repair a relationship it just wouldn't actually matter on an emotional level. There was never any emotional investment to begin with. My life isn't any less if they leave it. I'm not going to be less of me because they chose to leave.

I am extraverted, and I like people. I like sharing and enjoying moments together. I really do enjoy human interaction. But if it's ripped away from me it just feels like a breeze rather than a blow.

I don't really know if I value relationships or tolerate them.

EDIT: to give an example. I have a friend of 10ish years I recently had sort of a fight with. I told them I was getting irritated at something they were saying and wanted to drop it before I actually started getting angry. They told me they always feel they have to watch what they say around me and never feel safe to be themselves. 

Beyond being frustrated, I'm dead to it. This friend could say "I'm fucking over you" and walk out of my life tomorrow. They could send me messages telling me what a scumbag they think I am. It just wouldn't have any emotional resonance. I'd be able to eat dinner and go about my life afterwards like nothing had changed. It just wouldn't impact me. 

Of course, that's not what happened. I tried to find a compromise and we came to an understanding (because that's just what you do unless you really dislike someone) Things are back to normal. But I feel no emotionally different than I would have if they had told me to fuck off. The feeling I have now is literally the exact same I would have if the relationship ended.

And this is probably one of my longest, closest friends.


----------



## Coburn

I mean this could just be something entirely unrelated to enneagram. But maybe it's enneagram related. I don't know. It would be nice if there was some rhyme or reason to it.


----------



## owlet

Coburn said:


> I think on some sort of gut level, it feels manipulative. It's not, of course. Well, not always. But on the deepest level, it says "_you are not what I want. You are not what I wanted. Recognize my dissatisfaction and bend to it_."
> 
> My gut reaction is to reject the relationship altogether than pretend to be affected by it in ways I am not.
> 
> This is what feels so confusing. I can tell people I care about them and the relationship and I want to preserve it-- I've done this. But emotionally I'm dead to it. If they were to turn down my offers to repair a relationship it just wouldn't actually matter on an emotional level. There was never any emotional investment to begin with. My life isn't any less if they leave it. I'm not going to be less of me because they chose to leave.
> 
> I am extraverted, and I like people. I like sharing and enjoying moments together. I really do enjoy human interaction. But if it's ripped away from me it just feels like a breeze rather than a blow.
> 
> I don't really know if I value relationships or tolerate them.


Hmm, I can understand that. There's no such thing as a neutral response, so there's always something behind it - like if someone feels annoyed by something you've done, they have the want for you to not do that thing because it creates that negative internal response in them. But then, there's also the idea that all relationships involve compromise and it's just about which things you're not willing to compromise on which will decide if particular relationships last or fail (and letting them fail is a valid choice).
Do you feel distant from most people like that?


----------



## Coburn

owlet said:


> Hmm, I can understand that. There's no such thing as a neutral response, so there's always something behind it - like if someone feels annoyed by something you've done, they have the want for you to not do that thing because it creates that negative internal response in them. But then, there's also the idea that all relationships involve compromise and it's just about which things you're not willing to compromise on which will decide if particular relationships last or fail (and letting them fail is a valid choice).
> Do you feel distant from most people like that?


I don't think I've ever actively fought to maintain a relationship that was ending. I do not chase. 

Yes, I feel disconnected from most people on an emotionally-invested level. They don't have any hold on me.


----------



## Paradigm

mistakenforstranger said:


> That's fine. I didn't really take offense by it, and I appreciate the apology/clarification. I didn't feel like it was that important of a point to argue about either.


Yeah, that's why I said at the end of that last post that it was off-topic. I had realized my mistake xD



> Though, I do think this is true to my experience, at least compared to Socials whose focus tends to be more outwards and dispersed among everyone.


Well, I agree with both sides, I guess. I think that most people conceptualize "friendship" (that is, a relationship between two individuals) in a SOC fashion - ie, dispersed - and are apt to confuse that with SX's literal wording of "one-to-one." It kind of reminds me of the idea that "you can't miss what you never had," in that those who are more SOC-oriented won't often experience/recognize the SX focus, and vice versa. Maybe that's why I'm personally having a hard time putting the difference into words: all I've ever known is the SP/SX "method," as my SOC is / has been _stupidly_ blind.

I get your point, especially in relation to people who are widely-known, but let's face it: most people aren't, SOC-first or not. (Sure, being famous is idealized, but most people aren't, nor are they even as popular as they might think.) The way I see it, the amount of people you know - personally or otherwise - is really tangential to the instincts: SOC does lead to being aware of the people around you, but so can SP (for 'protection') and SX (for 'energy') in their own ways. The difference is, where does your outlook lie? If it's for social dynamics - even if it's just between a few people - then you're probably SOC, doesn't matter if there's not a lot of people around or if you don't talk much. But if it's not for dynamics at all (or not really), then it might not be SOC. (Of course, one has to keep in mind "counter-SOC," which is _still_ being aware of social dynamics but being... displeased or even disinterested with them.)



> but I can't determine mine throughout all of it, which is my main purpose in all of my questioning, since I feel like sp/so, which was what I was originally typing as, feels very off now. Haha, maybe you have a thought as to what mine are? :eagerness: (Though, you don't have to answer too, but I've never heard your opinion yet (if you have one), and would be curious).


Oh? I guess I never had an opinion, or not one that I ever felt was strong enough to say... Only because I try not to judge unless asked to or it's (imo) glaringly obvious. You probably described it elsewhere and I missed it, but why are you questioning SP/SO? I can't say I know much about type 4 SP, let alone 4 SP/SX vs SP/SO, but then... I prefer not using the subtype model as a first tactic, so if that's alright with you, I'm happy to discuss


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I mean, most people want some kind of one-on-one but at the same time they are very Social in my experience. I'd assume even within groups there are individual connections happening as well. Humans are social animals, but not a hive-mind (I know some would disagree with that, but =P)... and I've spent a while trying to grok each instinct at a, well, instinctual level, and when exploring Social it doesn't _feel_ like simply a focus on groups. And so that article rings mostly true for me, aside from the part about intimacy really being Social, as I think each instinct can be "intimate" in a way - but then, I see most interactions as an interplay between Social and Sexual. Everything is sort of happening at the same time, but at varying levels.

Anyway, as far as attachments go (since I talked some about that earlier), I'm not really the self-sacrificial type, and compromise isn't something that comes easily to me, so often I might let a relationship go than work for it or whatever. So it's more that I'm internally rather obsessed/affected by things, and would burn up on the inside before ever getting over something, but apparently I can come across as not caring much. Well, at least that gives the illusion of me having some control in the situation, so that suits me fine for the most part. =P


----------



## owlet

Coburn said:


> I don't think I've ever actively fought to maintain a relationship that was ending. I do not chase.
> 
> Yes, I feel disconnected from most people on an emotionally-invested level. They don't have any hold on me.


Do you not try to save a relationship because of any particular reason?

I don't think it sounds like this is enneagram/type related too much, but perhaps indicates sx-last?


----------



## Coburn

owlet said:


> Do you not try to save a relationship because of any particular reason?
> 
> I don't think it sounds like this is enneagram/type related too much, but perhaps indicates sx-last?


I think the feeling is something like: _I don't need you. I can continue on without you. You don't have that kind of control over my life. _

There's also this feeling that people are trying to hurt me by threatening to end or leave a relationship (like when my friend said they never felt totally safe to be themselves). I don't want to bend to their manipulation. It seems completely pathetic to chase someone who's leaving. Let them go. I despise the idea of clinging to people.

Why do you say sx-last? Because it doesn't prioritize connection?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Coburn
Sounds like some 8/5 influence, but I know you've considered 8 before (unless I'm mistaking you for someone else =P)


----------



## Coburn

Remnants said:


> @Coburn
> Sounds like some 8/5 influence, but I know you've considered 8 before (unless I'm mistaking you for someone else =P)


I've typed as eight for a couple years now with a five in the tritype. Just on the fence about it because I don't relate to some aspects (lust, forcefulness).


----------



## Brains

Coburn said:


> I've typed as eight for a couple years now with a five in the tritype. Just on the fence about it because I don't relate to some aspects (lust, forcefulness).


Did you take the IPIP-300 back when everyone did it? If not, try and maybe it could give some hints.


----------



## Coburn

Brains said:


> Did you take the IPIP-300 back when everyone did it? If not, try and maybe it could give some hints.


I did not. Let me give it a shot.


----------



## Coburn

Brains said:


> Did you take the IPIP-300 back when everyone did it? If not, try and maybe it could give some hints.


Results:

*BIG Five:*

Extraversion: *84th percentile
*
Agreeableness: 58th percentile

Conscientiousness: 49th percentile

Neuroticism: *24th percentile*

Openness: 43rd percentile



*Eight Highest Traits:*

E - Activity: 95%

E - Friendliness: 86%

O - Adventurousness: 85%

O - Artistic Interests: 82%

E - Assertiveness: 78%

E - Gregariousness: 77%

C - Dutifulness: 75%

N - Anger: 74%



*Eight Lowest Traits*

O - Liberalism: 1%

N - Self-Consciousness: 7%

N - Anxiety: 12%

N - Depression: 22%

O - Intellect: 29%

A - Sympathy: 32%

C - Cautiousness: 33%

N - Immoderation: 36%


Afterward:

I think this is fairly accurate for me, as tests go. Based on the results, I seem to be more action-oriented and less inclined to self-observe, both in negative and positive ways. 

My trust and vulnerability levels are low but not the lowest. My nature is very inclined towards interaction with others.

There's probably also a touch of impulsiveness in there.

Overall, the biggest distinction is between extraversion and neuroticism. While zero extraverted traits ended up in the lowest eight, anger (neuroticism) ended up as one of the highest eight.


----------



## ElectricSlime

Coburn said:


> Results:
> 
> *BIG Five:*
> 
> Extraversion: *84th percentile
> *
> Agreeableness: 58th percentile
> 
> Conscientiousness: 49th percentile
> 
> Neuroticism: *24th percentile*
> 
> Openness: 43rd percentile
> 
> 
> 
> *Eight Highest Traits:*
> 
> E - Activity: 95%
> 
> E - Friendliness: 86%
> 
> O - Adventurousness: 85%
> 
> O - Artistic Interests: 82%
> 
> E - Assertiveness: 78%
> 
> E - Gregariousness: 77%
> 
> C - Dutifulness: 75%
> 
> N - Anger: 74%
> 
> 
> 
> *Eight Lowest Traits*
> 
> O - Liberalism: 1%
> 
> N - Self-Consciousness: 7%
> 
> N - Anxiety: 12%
> 
> N - Depression: 22%
> 
> O - Intellect: 29%
> 
> A - Sympathy: 32%
> 
> C - Cautiousness: 33%
> 
> N - Immoderation: 36%
> 
> 
> Afterward:
> 
> I think this is fairly accurate for me, as tests go. Based on the results, I seem to be more action-oriented and less inclined to self-observe, both in negative and positive ways.
> 
> My trust and vulnerability levels are low but not the lowest. My nature is very inclined towards interaction with others.
> 
> There's probably also a touch of impulsiveness in there.
> 
> Overall, the biggest distinction is between extraversion and neuroticism. While zero extraverted traits ended up in the lowest eight, anger (neuroticism) ended up as one of the highest eight.


We already kinda suspected that, but you can now safely take off 6 from your list definitely. 

And while Three is still kinda possible, Eight just seems much more likely (as you lack a self promoting streak). Going off conscientiousness, One is less likely.

I used to be skeptical of this Big 5 interpretation lense a while ago, but once you understand its links with the roots of enneagram behaviors, it’s good stuff. Not perfect (I don’t really fit a particular E Types’s associated scores), but useful in most cases.

I think you’re a solid 8w9 Coburn.


----------



## Brains

Coburn said:


> Results:
> 
> *BIG Five:*
> 
> Extraversion: *84th percentile*
> 
> Agreeableness: 58th percentile
> 
> Conscientiousness: 49th percentile
> 
> Neuroticism: *24th percentile*
> 
> Openness: 43rd percentile
> 
> ...
> 
> I think this is fairly accurate for me, as tests go. Based on the results, I seem to be more action-oriented and less inclined to self-observe, both in negative and positive ways.
> 
> My trust and vulnerability levels are low but not the lowest. My nature is very inclined towards interaction with others.
> 
> There's probably also a touch of impulsiveness in there.
> 
> Overall, the biggest distinction is between extraversion and neuroticism. While zero extraverted traits ended up in the lowest eight, anger (neuroticism) ended up as one of the highest eight.


Yup, 6 is off the map. 8w9 sounds like a good fit.


----------



## Haludh

I’m considering the possibility of being a 2 core. I’ve definitely developed a personal philosophy that unless I’m benefiting other people, I’m useless, and that philosophy has developed out of the 4-ish narcissism of my teens (playing into the disintegration theory—I was a very troubled kid); however, I never feel as though I’m useful _enough_ to people. I’m very aware that not every second of my life is being put to good use (i.e. others’ benefit) and experience a lot of guilt over that. Don’t 2s believe they are selfless angels, gone unappreciated for their endless sacrifices? (I do sometimes feel that way, as well, but I check myself immediately.)


----------



## Tad Cooper

Haludh said:


> I’m considering the possibility of being a 2 core. I’ve definitely developed a personal philosophy that unless I’m benefiting other people, I’m useless, and that philosophy has developed out of the 4-ish narcissism of my teens (playing into the disintegration theory—I was a very troubled kid); however, I never feel as though I’m useful _enough_ to people. I’m very aware that not every second of my life is being put to good use (i.e. others’ benefit) and experience a lot of guilt over that. Don’t 2s believe they are selfless angels, gone unappreciated for their endless sacrifices? (I do sometimes feel that way, as well, but I check myself immediately.)


Hmm have you ever looked into type 3? I find those two types are easy to confuse - both are about love but 3s worry a lot about achieving something, so worry more about putting time to good use.


----------



## Haludh

Tad Cooper said:


> Hmm have you ever looked into type 3? I find those two types are easy to confuse - both are about love but 3s worry a lot about achieving something, so worry more about putting time to good use.


Funnily enough, I've specifically not looked into 3 because I've never striven to be successful in any way, shape, or form. I might be the least ambitious person anyone knows; I mean, I like promoting other people, but have very little sense of what I, myself, desire or am capable of. That said, I'm extremely concerned with appearing competent and desirable (have always chalked that up to being social-first—seeing myself through others' eyes).

3 and 8 are the only two types I've basically just never considered. A heart core has always made the most sense for me, so perhaps I should look for some more in-depth analyses of 3. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Vaka

How do you distinguish between a 4w5 and a 4w3 with a possible 5 or 6w5 fix?
I feel as if I'm a 4w3 yet there are undeniable 5ish traits about me and some people are convinced I'm a 4w5. I just think there's something more externally focused about my image where as 4w5 descriptions always emphasize the almost entirely insular nature. I'm not sure if that's just the image that 4w5s want to project, tho, as I know 4w5s are still an image type and will have external focus to some degree

I have an inability to manipulate my image for my environment and goals, but I'm also extremely ambitious and I enjoy expressing myself and feeding off peoples' real or imagined reactions to my image. If I'm not working toward my goals or making steps forward, I feel really uncomfortable. Any aspect of 4w3 that takes on pure 3ishnes, I can't relate to. Someone told me there's a superficiality to 4w3(it was a 4w3) which I can't relate to

I could go on and on listing how I relate to type 5, but I'm mainly just wondering how to distintinguish those two subtypes, a 4w5 and a 4w3 with a 5 or 6w5 fix that might temper the 3ishness


----------



## Paradigm

Vaka said:


> How do you distinguish between a 4w5 and a 4w3 with a possible 5 or 6w5 fix?
> I feel as if I'm a 4w3 yet there are undeniable 5ish traits about me and some people are convinced I'm a 4w5. I just think there's something more externally focused about my image where as 4w5 descriptions always emphasize the almost entirely insular nature. I'm not sure if that's just the image that 4w5s want to project, tho, as I know 4w5s are still an image type and will have external focus to some degree
> I have an inability to manipulate my image for my environment and goals, but I'm also extremely ambitious and I enjoy expressing myself and feeding off peoples' real or imagined reactions to my image. If I'm not working toward my goals or making steps forward, I feel really uncomfortable. Any aspect of 4w3 that takes on pure 3ishnes, I can't relate to. Someone told me there's a superficiality to 4w3(it was a 4w3) which I can't relate to
> I could go on and on listing how I relate to type 5, but I'm mainly just wondering how to distintinguish those two subtypes, a 4w5 and a 4w3 with a 5 or 6w5 fix that might temper the 3ishness


So... I'm actually much more comfortable describing 4w3 than I am 4w5 (somewhat ironically, I guess, but maybe that's what you get by growing up around a 4w3 while shunning anything shame- or image-related in yourself), so I'm hesitant to really go into how a 4w5 "is." Perhaps one of the 4w5s can chime in about it, instead?

I don't really see w3 (both 2w3 and 4w3) as being fully about the "success" and "achievement" people assume it to be. Rather, it's more about being more image-oriented, more aware of the reactions from people... almost like more willing to navigate the world that the other two wings (2w1 and 4w5) lack. And I know that sounds a lot like SOC, and it's definitely easy to confuse the two, which is probably a reason why you don't see a lot of self-typed "4w5 SOC-first" or "4w3 SOC-last." But that's why descriptions say things like, "4w3 has a flair for the dramatic," because they're not as eager to turn inward as the 4w5 is: they want to (im)press their differences onto the world, somehow, even if it affects only a few people. Where SOC is going to see the connections between the populous and/or the way they fit into the world, w3 is going to see how they can get what they want (and that can be as simple as "being acknowledged") and more actively seize it. The latter doesn't necessarily need to see connections between people at all, in theory, because the scale and strategies can so easily change based on the goal(s) and individual strengths/weaknesses. 

A 4w3 is more adaptable but still going to hold steadfast to the thing that makes them "different" (the one I know will constantly talk about how she's the "black sheep" even when she isn't), whereas a 4w5 is going to be more of a "fuck you, this is me" and (_maybe?_) not declare it to the world as much. The "problem" being that a lot of 4w3s assume they do the "fuck you" thing when they don't, or not to the same level 4w5s do... >_> In actuality, 4w3 never really _changes_ themselves, they tend to _bend_, instead; I imagine that the more self-aware ones may struggle coming to terms with that and/or even try to fight against the urge/instinct to "bend," which would seem 4w5ish as well. (FWIW, I went through similar, though for more 6ish reasons; I think it's a fairly human thing to struggle with, which may annoy a 4 to hear.  )
Edit: To be a bit more clear, by "bending," I mean... I see them as emphasizing some traits over others in one situation, and then emphasizing other traits in another situation. Those traits are all still _them,_ of course, but it's still adapting to the environment. The 4w5 often lacks that adaptation response, or it's more muted, or it's a result of actively changing/improving than something more automatic.

And basic reminders: most people have traits of both wings, and many SOC-lasts have a "5ish air." I can relate to the _words _of 5 descriptions but not what it really means to _be _5, albeit probably in ways different to you. But I'm not trying to dismiss how you relate to it, I'm just throwing it out there. And then there's: tritype doesn't matter too much. If you can't explain the majority of what you want to explain with your core type, it's probably not your core. I do understand your confusion/frustration, and the desire to do it all in one go, but doing tritype initially makes things weirder more than it helps.

Edit2: And I'm sorry for not being able to go into 5 more for you. I could attempt 6w5, sure, but 5 itself isn't easy for me to put the concept of it in my head into words.


----------



## Vaka

Paradigm said:


> So... I'm actually much more comfortable describing 4w3 than I am 4w5 (somewhat ironically, I guess, but maybe that's what you get by growing up around a 4w3 while shunning anything shame- or image-related in yourself), so I'm hesitant to really go into how a 4w5 "is." Perhaps one of the 4w5s can chime in about it, instead?
> 
> I don't really see w3 (both 2w3 and 4w3) as being fully about the "success" and "achievement" people assume it to be. Rather, it's more about being more image-oriented, more aware of the reactions from people... almost like more willing to navigate the world that the other two wings (2w1 and 4w5) lack. And I know that sounds a lot like SOC, and it's definitely easy to confuse the two, which is probably a reason why you don't see a lot of self-typed "4w5 SOC-first" or "4w3 SOC-last." But that's why descriptions say things like, "4w3 has a flair for the dramatic," because they're not as eager to turn inward as the 4w5 is: they want to (im)press their differences onto the world, somehow, even if it affects only a few people. Where SOC is going to see the connections between the populous and/or the way they fit into the world, w3 is going to see how they can get what they want (and that can be as simple as "being acknowledged") and more actively seize it. The latter doesn't necessarily need to see connections between people at all, in theory, because the scale and strategies can so easily change based on the goal(s) and individual strengths/weaknesses.
> 
> A 4w3 is more adaptable but still going to hold steadfast to the thing that makes them "different" (the one I know will constantly talk about how she's the "black sheep" even when she isn't), whereas a 4w5 is going to be more of a "fuck you, this is me" and (_maybe?_) not declare it to the world as much. The "problem" being that a lot of 4w3s assume they do the "fuck you" thing when they don't, or not to the same level 4w5s do... >_> In actuality, 4w3 never really _changes_ themselves, they tend to _bend_, instead; I imagine that the more self-aware ones may struggle coming to terms with that and/or even try to fight against the urge/instinct to "bend," which would seem 4w5ish as well. (FWIW, I went through similar, though for more 6ish reasons; I think it's a fairly human thing to struggle with, which may annoy a 4 to hear.  )
> Edit: To be a bit more clear, by "bending," I mean... I see them as emphasizing some traits over others in one situation, and then emphasizing other traits in another situation. Those traits are all still _them,_ of course, but it's still adapting to the environment. The 4w5 often lacks that adaptation response, or it's more muted, or it's a result of actively changing/improving than something more automatic.
> 
> And basic reminders: most people have traits of both wings, and many SOC-lasts have a "5ish air." I can relate to the _words _of 5 descriptions but not what it really means to _be _5, albeit probably in ways different to you. But I'm not trying to dismiss how you relate to it, I'm just throwing it out there. And then there's: tritype doesn't matter too much. If you can't explain the majority of what you want to explain with your core type, it's probably not your core. I do understand your confusion/frustration, and the desire to do it all in one go, but doing tritype initially makes things weirder more than it helps.
> 
> Edit2: And I'm sorry for not being able to go into 5 more for you. I could attempt 6w5, sure, but 5 itself isn't easy for me to put the concept of it in my head into words.


I should've deleted that, but thank you so much for going through and thinking about it. I'll still save these words and contemplate them. A collection of 4s(made up of both 4w3s and 4w5s) pretty much convinced me I'm a 4w5 even though I truly believed I was a 4w3 and only made a thread to try and delve into the 4w3 type to parse it away from what I perceived to be overly 3 tinged descriptions...lol

What you said about reactions is along the lines of why I thought I was a 4w3. But now I do wonder if it's just an image/4 thing in general and if 4w5s are just less overt about it. The 4w3s in my thread were pretty upfront about a sense of 'superficiality' and that there's more an emphasis on projecting an image that they feel reflects their specialness, but may still have the 3 flavor of projecting an image that's at least their idea of perfection. On the same note, they say that they don't really delve as deeply into themselves and their imperfections and may even avoid paying too much attention to them. Actually they said my contemplative nature speaks against 4w3 

I also do relate to 5 even aside from being social last and tbh, I don't see tritypes as too important either. The reason being that I can feel 4 issues ring so loudly in my life that if I don't face them, it means seriously avoiding transformation and self development, vital growth, happiness, but I can't find that relationship with any other type. The only one that comes even a bit close is 5, but 3 doesn't touch at all. The ways in which I relate to 3 have to do with ambition, drive, a vision I'm working toward, but those are rather superficial ways to relate to a type

I suppose delving into my 4w5 self yields a lot more potential for growth than delving into my 4w3 self(since like you said, we'll have bits of both wings) and that's really what matters

Thank you regardless, Paradigm. You always give truly thoughtful responses


----------



## Animal

@*Vaka*
Your pictures say to me 4w5.
You have the sad eyes of the 4, and also the separation and alienation in your vibe. Your body language screams withdraw, yet not rooted in your body and with the weight in the center like a 9, nor head leaning forward or 'lots of weight on head' like 5, or back and forth body language indicating 'either or' like a 6. You look reactive in the enneagram sense, like you're "ready" (I'm sensing 4w5 with 6w5 fix, for what it's worth). You look like an image type in that you hold the camera at certain angles to compliment your face BUT in the kind of way 4s do, where it's not about classic beauty or what people expect, but rather, what image you want to give off - which clearly has some toughness in it (indicating 6w5 fix, being 6s tend to have 'coward vs. tough' complexes) . Although you clearly have the image awareness to put forth a certain vibe and adjust the camera just so, even when it's a selfie (and this feels nuanced and automatic - hard to explain in words), you also don't have a loud flamboyant stand-out image for 3 wing. It's more like, "If you can't figure out what I'm about, you don't deserve to." You present something that subtly suggests you live somewhere deep within, and yet it's retentive (5) and the image is not show-off.

I will go out on a limb and suggest Sp dominance purely based on how you stand..you have the defiant, kind of noble no-bullshit look of Sp 4. In a 4, Sp gives it a bit more 'guttish heaviness & severity.' Which you have. Your avatar is also extremely Sp as it depicts literally what's inside the body, and Sp has that kind of body-focus. Sx dom has a bit more spillage, like they're girating and their proverbial genitals are hanging out for the world to see. There's a vampiric hunger in Sx/Sp - you have some more survival in you, something more 'tenacious.'

Feel free to ignore any or all of this. Many people will dismiss visual typing.. I'm not here to argue about its merits or demerits ... just saying what I see. Feel free to take it or leave it


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## Vaka

Animal said:


> @*Vaka*
> Your pictures say to me 4w5.
> You have the sad eyes of the 4, and also the separation and alienation in your vibe. Your body language screams withdraw, yet not rooted in your body and with the weight in the center like a 9, nor head leaning forward or 'lots of weight on head' like 5, or back and forth body language indicating 'either or' like a 6. You look reactive in the enneagram sense, like you're "ready" (I'm sensing 4w5 with 6w5 fix, for what it's worth). You look like an image type in that you hold the camera at certain angles to compliment your face BUT in the kind of way 4s do, where it's not about classic beauty or what people expect, but rather, what image you want to give off - which clearly has some toughness in it (indicating 6w5 fix, being 6s tend to have 'coward vs. tough' complexes) . Although you clearly have the image awareness to put forth a certain vibe and adjust the camera just so, even when it's a selfie (and this feels nuanced and automatic - hard to explain in words), you also don't have a loud flamboyant stand-out image for 3 wing. It's more like, "If you can't figure out what I'm about, you don't deserve to." You present something that subtly suggests you live somewhere deep within, and yet it's retentive (5) and the image is not show-off.
> 
> I will go out on a limb and suggest Sp dominance purely based on how you stand..you have the defiant, kind of noble no-bullshit look of Sp 4. In a 4, Sp gives it a bit more 'guttish heaviness & severity.' Which you have. Your avatar is also extremely Sp as it depicts literally what's inside the body, and Sp has that kind of body-focus. Sx dom has a bit more spillage, like they're girating and their proverbial genitals are hanging out for the world to see. There's a vampiric hunger in Sx/Sp - you have some more survival in you, something more 'tenacious.'
> 
> *Feel free to ignore any or all of this. *Many people will dismiss visual typing.. I'm not here to argue about its merits or demerits ... just saying what I see. Feel free to take it or leave it


Not at all! Thank you for that. I can see 4-6 because I am very reactive. On the instinct front, I actually relate more to the vampiric hunger of sx/sp while tenacity and survival are traits I've had to develop mostly for the sheer fact following my sexual instinct can lead me to entirely work against my survival almost like that's part of what it yearns for. Unfortunately, I relate to all of the negative traits of sexual 4s and that's actually what originally helped m realize I was a 4

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but some of the traits I've noted are 'competition', envy peaked when in a relationship or close friendship and directed toward the person I'm getting close to(also, even when I'm not close to someone, I'll always have someone in my mind directing all those feelings to), excessively comparing myself to others especially when they start getting into territory I feel is mine, valuing myself based on sexual attractiveness, jealousy and possessiveness, compensatory superiority to deal with deepseated feelings of inferiority, anger directed towards others when I feel rejected, expecting my partner to meet my every emotional need if I let them in or I else I start feeling rejected. By competition I don't mean externalized competition. Moreso something that takes place in my head or burns inside me. I also have a side of me that's heavily gluttonous and impulsive and extremely lustful like a pseudo 7 but without the positive outlook. It may also make sense of why I'm so driven in a way that made me think I was a w3

For a while, my whole drive was basically to seek revenge against others just because I felt rejected by them even tho it was all in my head. The way I sought to do it was through writing with which I aimed to invite people to the darkness, or rather force it on them, destroy their happiness, shake their entire universes off their foundations. Thankfully, I'm out of that and my desire now is one I feel is positive

The other reason I've thought sx>sp is because my need for intensity overrides any survival instincts by nature but that's also forced me to develop some more balanced instincts and try to tame myself a little bit


----------



## Paradigm

Well, I can't sleep, but I've been meaning to reply to this since you posted it. While I'll try to live up to my standard of posting (thank you for the compliment!), I apologize if this turns a bit rambly xD



Vaka said:


> What you said about reactions is along the lines of why I thought I was a 4w3. But now I do wonder if it's just an image/4 thing in general and if 4w5s are just less overt about it. The 4w3s in my thread were pretty upfront about a sense of 'superficiality' and that there's more an emphasis on projecting an image that they feel reflects their specialness, but may still have the 3 flavor of projecting an image that's at least their idea of perfection. On the same note, they say that they don't really delve as deeply into themselves and their imperfections and may even avoid paying too much attention to them. Actually they said my contemplative nature speaks against 4w3


My first impression is the 4s you were talking to probably don't have the right idea of 4 or 4w3. They _sound like_ people who are sucked into the "ideal" of 4 but probably aren't (of which there are plenty). No 4w3 I've come across or observed would, if "average health," admit to being "superficial," for example! That sounds like either low self-esteem or they're misunderstanding something, not like they're "uber self-aware 4w3s." Yes, 4w3 does present an image (or several), but I find it's not from a "perfection" standpoint, it's from a "I am flawed; hear me roar!" one; a 3w4 would be more likely to start from "perfection" due to being core Competency, I think. The type 4 is "hyper-aware of how defective they perceive themselves," or something like that, so if you're not even starting from that place, then... They're probably not a 4.
(I want to go into a tangent about how common it is for people, especially nowadays it feels like, to have low self-esteem and/or feel "behind," or "dumb," or "incapable" like Imposter Syndrome, and point out how all of that can easily be confused for the 4's idea of "defective," but I won't beyond this...)

Additionally, and I think what really bothers me is that assumption 4w5 is the only one who is "contemplative" or "introspective." To me, this isn't so much a wing debate as maybe an introvert/extrovert and maturity debate. To me, this is the same as saying "6w5s are the quiet smart ones, while 6w7s are the bubbly cheerleaders" - it's not only untrue, but so incredibly simplified to be utterly inane and not even capturing the types' essences. I'm not going to deny that those sorts of people exist, but frankly they exist of both wings and they are _not_ assumptions you should base your type off of, IMO. 



> I also do relate to 5 even aside from being social last and tbh, I don't see tritypes as too important either. The reason being that I can feel 4 issues ring so loudly in my life that if I don't face them, it means seriously avoiding transformation and self development, vital growth, happiness, but I can't find that relationship with any other type. *The only one that comes even a bit close is 5, but 3 doesn't touch at all.*


Why doesn't 3 touch that, and in what way does 5? 3 and 5 are (perhaps ironically) quite alike and thus easily confused for the other, it seems like, mostly in favor of 5 around here. 



> The ways in which I relate to 3 have to do with ambition, drive, a vision I'm working toward, but those are rather superficial ways to relate to a type


While I did say that I don't think w3 is all about ambition / success, I do think it's a part of it that can't be denied. Or, if it's not overt _ambition_, then it's that "bending" quality with the desire to be recognized. (The problem is, in my family, the ones with w3 are ADHD and that does shit to your ambition/motivation drives, so I can't provide decent ancedotes. The likely-2w3 I know is crazy ambitious because she needs to Feel Useful, I assume to Be Loved, but she may be an exception or a "magnification.")



> I suppose delving into my 4w5 self yields a lot more potential for growth than delving into my 4w3 self(since like you said, we'll have bits of both wings) and that's really what matters


That's entirely possible, and it's a good idea. Quick thing: I want to make sure to let you know I'm not arguing against 4w5 for you. I'm arguing against the misconceptions between the wings, but not your type.


----------



## JFrombaugh

I’m back again after a long break.


We’ve already sorted out my core type (9w1 mistyped as 6w5 & 4w5), but there is still a lot of dispute as to whether I’m sp/so or sp/sx. Everybody on this board seems to think I am sp/so, and some have even typed me as so/sp. 

But I’m almost 100% confident that I am sp/sx. And here’s why:

1. Even though others have pointed out that I seem to be very concerned with so-related things, I still feel like group dynamics are something that I often have to pretend to care about more than I really do, a necessary evil in life as it were. My sense of security comes from being respected *as an individual*, not as a member of a group.

2. I also definitely have a bias towards personal interests in conversation, and don’t have a whole lot of patience for small talk or shallow chit-chat. My Mom tells me that I can have a stifling presence because of this focus that remains “too long” on things. When given the chance to talk about my personal experiences and interests and hobbies, I can be very talkative, even in a group setting…but then it’s like the conversation will drift to some superficial topic that I don’t know or care much about, and the other people will observe a symphony of blank stares from me. It’s as if they’re not speaking, as if I’m no longer part of the conversation. My responses, when they come, are generally independent of what the rest of the group is saying. They might as well have been speaking in Swahili. It would have made no difference.

3. When I’m at a party or some other social gathering, I tend to home in on those people I feel most “click” with me, whether it be physical attraction, shared interests, or just feeling attracted to their overall demeanor. I joined a couple of student organizations in college, but my motive for doing so was to get to know certain individuals better through our shared interest, and as soon as I got to know those people better I lost interest in being part of the group.

4. Many people on here have pointed out the fact that I’ve never really been in an intimate relationship or had a true girlfriend as proof that I am sx-last, but one thing I would emphasize is that this has more to do with my strong sense of personal boundaries and feeling like I’m just not there yet, commitment wise. I’ve had many, many “crushes” that I’ve tried to connect with, and if anything I wish in retrospect that I could’ve spent more time with them, but yet I’ve always found it hard to take the initiative (to ask them out on a date for instance, or to be vigilant about calling on a regular basis), and more often than not, they would already have their own group of friends anyway.

5. Also, while I care about contributing to society (partly my 1-wing talking here), I dislike the idea of having to rely on social structures to do it. I’d much rather just make charity donations on my own terms, than join a club or partake in protest marches. 

6. I’ve always kind of felt like belonging to a group will take up time, energy, involve too many responsibilities, and I dislike the idea of being beholden to people that I don’t get along with or having to pretend to like people or things that I don't actually like.

7. At my worst, I feel like I can come off as selfish and uncaring, even borderline solipstic in my views, despite my core 9 desire to avoid conflict, not hurt anyone’s feelings, keep the peace, and so forth. At my best, my relationships with others are ones of empathizing with the other person on a personal level and bonding through shared personal interests & beliefs.


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## 480

Vaka said:


> How do you distinguish between a 4w5 and a 4w3 with a possible 5 or 6w5 fix?
> I feel as if I'm a 4w3 yet there are undeniable 5ish traits about me and some people are convinced I'm a 4w5. I just think there's something more externally focused about my image where as 4w5 descriptions always emphasize the almost entirely insular nature. I'm not sure if that's just the image that 4w5s want to project, tho, as I know 4w5s are still an image type and will have external focus to some degree
> 
> I have an inability to manipulate my image for my environment and goals, but I'm also extremely ambitious and I enjoy expressing myself and feeding off peoples' real or imagined reactions to my image. If I'm not working toward my goals or making steps forward, I feel really uncomfortable. Any aspect of 4w3 that takes on pure 3ishnes, I can't relate to. Someone told me there's a superficiality to 4w3(it was a 4w3) which I can't relate to
> 
> I could go on and on listing how I relate to type 5, but I'm mainly just wondering how to distintinguish those two subtypes, a 4w5 and a 4w3 with a 5 or 6w5 fix that might temper the 3ishness


So there are some key ways to differentiate... there's also some misconceptions that can lead you down some unnecessary rabbit holes.

As for readily noticeable differences... 4s with a 5 wing play it cool. They're more reserved and somewhat "standoff-ish" than their 3 wing counterparts. Both wings can keep a distance and hope you notice them, and pursue... but the 3 wingers are are known for more obvious about their interests. This might be what leads folks to think 4w3s are "superficial". They are anything but... in fact they are quite genuine and open people. The catch is that the thing that grabs their attention, may not hold it for long. Their intense excitement about one thing can quickly be forgotten when they spot something else and have a sort of "explosion of feels" about this new thing. That can manifest in an actual squeal and exclamation of OMG!!! The quick switch can leave you wondering if they were really interested in the first thing at all. The answer is yes they were... but there was a distraction. 4w3s tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves... 4w5s may feel as intensely, but may not want you to know that, or see it. 4w3s maybe embarrass themselves with their unfiltered emotional "outbursts", but you'll seldom find 4w5s caught up in such moments. 


One thing of note, is that it might help to think of types as a particular food dish. Like say a soup. The wings are best described as whether it's more salty or more peppery. With the "fixes" further affecting the flavor of the dish in the form of different types of meat, or soup base, or veggies. No aspect of any personality type really takes on "pure-ishness" from another type... any more than a bowl of soup can take on fundamental characteristics of a large pepperoni pizza, or vice versa. They can be made to share the taste/flavor of each other by what they're made of... but pizza is obviously pizza, and soup is obviously soup no matter their constituents. 

Any time you're faced with an "I relate to this, but what about this trait of mine over here?!" moment, it might be more helpful to consider that it's just plain okay. If you really are type X, then that trait fits just fine with type x and doesn't really need a complex rationale. Remember that the profiles are never going to be perfect... nor can they ever be "complete" or contain definitive listings of traits that are _always _type X, or _never _type Y. Some things are just more common or even universal than people usually give them credit for. 


Take this for example:



JFrombaugh said:


> ...despite my core 9 desire to avoid conflict, not hurt anyone’s feelings, keep the peace, and so forth...


Perhaps those are core concerns for a type 9... but many types can and do avoid conflict. In fact, not many actively seek it out. Even type 8s will avoid conflict. Doesn't matter. 

The same with the rest... not many types want to hurt someone's feelings "just because". Lots of types "go with the flow" to keep from rocking the boat. Because, let's face it... a room full of arguing people might be a little entertaining to some... but it gets old quick, and seriously just isn't the norm.

Sometimes it helps to take a break from the profiles as words on a page... that have some hard-set meaning... and think about real life situations. Some people, of all different types have no problem being callous. But how often to you see people walking around seeking conflict? Or insulting people for kicks? Most people, most of the time... get along in person just fine. No provoking. No name calling. No tactless comments. So if we type people based a few catch phrases associated with one type or the other... we'd end up labeling most of the world type 9s. Or the majority of college students type 7s, because they like to party and chug beer. Or every person that got angry and yelled at someone and told them what they really thought a type 8... and so on. 

In the end it doesn't really work.


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## 480

Grim said:


> Perhaps those are core concerns for a type 9... but many types can and do avoid conflict. In fact, not many actively seek it out. Even type 8s will avoid conflict. Doesn't matter.


To continue a bit more with this idea... and maybe help people understand where sometimes we look at the wrong thing... or ascribe reasons that just don't belong... let's look at how words on the page vs what's really happening... happens.


So type 8 is the challenger, RAWR!!! Right? Sometimes... but not always... or even usually. 8s are mostly inert. And while it's true that a type 8 may not care about hurting someone's feelings in some situations... it doesn't mean they're over there thinking "I want to go be mean to someone." or "I feel like hurting this person's feelings." In fact, it may be surprising to know that those kind of thoughts rarely cross their minds. 

The reality? 

It's a sort of obliviousness. A comment, that to the 8 isn't a big deal at all... but it crushed someone... and the 8 didn't even notice. Never set out with the intent to hurt feelings... and if it's pointed out to them that it did... may not even understand why it would.


A great example of this words on a page vs reality can be taken from the pages of MBTI profiles... the ENTJ. 

Those profiles are rife with verbiage of being leaders, and dominating... etc. 

What people think when they read it: Wow, these people are bossy assholes...

The reality?

They can be. But more to the point, "leaders" without followers are not leaders. No exceptions. ENTJs are often leaders because people *want *follow them. They have traits that people admire and respect. People do not admire or respect people who do not care about them... or are chronically pushy, manipulative. Leaders spend more time drawing people to them... and less time pushing them away.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Paradigm said:


> My first impression is the 4s you were talking to probably don't have the right idea of 4 or 4w3. They _sound like_ people who are sucked into the "ideal" of 4 but probably aren't (of which there are plenty). No 4w3 I've come across or observed would, if "average health," admit to being "superficial," for example! That sounds like either low self-esteem or they're misunderstanding something, not like they're "uber self-aware 4w3s." Yes, 4w3 does present an image (or several), but I find it's not from a "perfection" standpoint, it's from a "I am flawed; hear me roar!" one; a 3w4 would be more likely to start from "perfection" due to being core Competency, I think.


Well as a 4w3 I relate to what those 4w3s had told her. Especially this part:_ *"The 4w3s in my thread were pretty upfront about a sense of 'superficiality' and that there's more an emphasis on projecting an image that they feel reflects their specialness, but may still have the 3 flavor of projecting an image that's at least their idea of perfection."*_ Just because I am a core type 4, does not mean I don't experience the full effects of my 3 wing. My 3 wing is superficial, deceiving, and clouds my values / self-expression. But being a 4, it's only a part of who I am, and I readily admit that there is a part of me that is superficial (and that I try to challenge to the fullest extent possible). I value my truth above all else, so that's why I'm being honest. My 3 wing is distracting, it does not let me stray off into what I really want to focus my energy on. It often causes me to compromise. It's like I have a voice of an annoying child in my head, which keeps pointing things out, and they kind of have a point, but I don't want to legitimize their presence. Like those movie scenes, "Mom, aren't you going to get the keys," and you're immediately annoyed but you also know they're not totally wrong. Or "Mom can you buy me an ice cream" and you don't want to, but you also know there's no reason not to, so you try to meet them in the middle and give them a scoop of vanilla. Yeah, I just don't see this child's perspective to be refined or pertinent enough. Like I can tell that my main concerns are distinct, yet I still meet this voice in the middle. That doesn't mean I strive for "perfection" as an image, but I definitely am filtered despite my quirky nature. Both 3 and 4 are image consciousness, so I am hypersensitive to what others think of me, and I'm motivated to give them a positive impression (cause my 4 alone wants to be magical, extraordinary, exceptional). More times than not, my 3 wing pulls material in for my 4 to overreact to and consider, which feeds into comparing myself to others, and ultimately my sense of being defective and unlike others. So yeah, that's just my experience lol


----------



## goldthysanura

I think I'm a 10w42. I've been eating a lot of radicchio lately even though it's super bitter and i compare it to the bitterness of coffee and then I realize that I actually just like all bitter things...pretty sure if I had a 41 wing I would be more picky about that.


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## 480

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Well as a 4w3 I relate to what those 4w3s had told her. Especially this part:_ *"The 4w3s in my thread were pretty upfront about a sense of 'superficiality' and that there's more an emphasis on projecting an image that they feel reflects their specialness, but may still have the 3 flavor of projecting an image that's at least their idea of perfection."*_ Just because I am a core type 4, does not mean I don't experience the full effects of my 3 wing. My 3 wing is superficial, deceiving, and clouds my values / self-expression. But being a 4, it's only a part of who I am, and I readily admit that there is a part of me that is superficial (and that I try to challenge to the fullest extent possible). I value my truth above all else, so that's why I'm being honest. My 3 wing is distracting, it does not let me stray off into what I really want to focus my energy on. It often causes me to compromise. It's like I have a voice of an annoying child in my head, which keeps pointing things out, and they kind of have a point, but I don't want to legitimize their presence. Like those movie scenes, "Mom, aren't you going to get the keys," and you're immediately annoyed but you also know they're not totally wrong. Or "Mom can you buy me an ice cream" and you don't want to, but you also know there's no reason not to, so you try to meet them in the middle and give them a scoop of vanilla. Yeah, I just don't see this child's perspective to be refined or pertinent enough. Like I can tell that my main concerns are distinct, yet I still meet this voice in the middle. That doesn't mean I strive for "perfection" as an image, but I definitely am filtered despite my quirky nature. Both 3 and 4 are image consciousness, so I am hypersensitive to what others think of me, and I'm motivated to give them a positive impression (cause my 4 alone wants to be magical, extraordinary, exceptional). More times than not, my 3 wing pulls material in for my 4 to overreact to and consider, which feeds into comparing myself to others, and ultimately my sense of being defective and unlike others. So yeah, that's just my experience lol


Something I did not mention in my earlier posts about 4w3s being superficial is that I've seen a situation where the 4 didn't know what to say or do. 

Such as with a compliment. Are you supposed to give one back? Just say thanks and move on? Tell a story about why you chose X thing being complimented, or where you bought it... or that a friend suggested it?

Maybe they really don't feel like saying anything, and just want to hide under a stack of blankets and wait for it all to go away (could be a bit more 9 fix)... but end up feeling like something is required so they say _something_... and hope for the best.


Then... because it's not what they really felt, feel like they were just fake and the exchange was superficial... because not authentic.

Is this something you relate to?


I'd suspect 4w5s have the same internal struggle, but are less likely to say something that breaks the cool, mysterious image...thus negating the issue.


----------



## 480

goldthysanura said:


> I think I'm a 10w42. I've been eating a lot of radicchio lately even though it's super bitter and i compare it to the bitterness of coffee and then I realize that I actually just like all bitter things...pretty sure if I had a 41 wing I would be more picky about that.


I've seen 6s do this very thing. A sort of passive-aggressive "the enneagram is stupid" thing. Or maybe it's a commentary on how others talk about it. 

Occasionally 6s that are more fearful of directly addressing things type themselves as 9s because being a "peacemaker" feels more positive than just plain feeling afraid. 


It's not cowardice, it's a personality trait!

I liken it to the "Stages of Death"... and they're at denial. Then end step is of course acceptance, and with it positivity.


If you look at the behavior... you're making a joke of it all. Mocking it. It's just arbitrary numbers, right?

But if there's really no point to any of it, why come here and push against it?


Maybe this is you, and maybe it's not. I saw your post and type and felt like I've been here before. And it's a bit odd to me that a 9 would post something potentially inflammatory like that out of the blue. I wouldn't say it's impossible... maybe more aligned with just joking around hoping to be included in the conversation.


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## goldthysanura

Grim said:


> I've seen 6s do this very thing. A sort of passive-aggressive "the enneagram is stupid" thing. Or maybe it's a commentary on how others talk about it.
> 
> Occasionally 6s that are more fearful of directly addressing things type themselves as 9s because being a "peacemaker" feels more positive than just plain feeling afraid.
> 
> 
> It's not cowardice, it's a personality trait!
> 
> I liken it to the "Stages of Death"... and they're at denial. Then end step is of course acceptance, and with it positivity.
> 
> 
> If you look at the behavior... you're making a joke of it all. Mocking it. It's just arbitrary numbers, right?
> 
> But if there's really no point to any of it, why come here and push against it?
> 
> 
> Maybe this is you, and maybe it's not. I saw your post and type and felt like I've been here before. And it's a bit odd to me that a 9 would post something potentially inflammatory like that out of the blue. I wouldn't say it's impossible... maybe more aligned with just joking around hoping to be included in the conversation.


Yeah you might be right. I think it was also a way of venting my frustrations with myself. Since I always overanalyze myself and all this personality typology stuff feeds into it more often than not, you know? But yeah I have a lot of qualities of 9 but also a lot of 6 and I ping-pong back between them, sometimes I am not sure how much I'm joking about things and how much I'm trying to say something that I have no other way of saying.


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## 480

goldthysanura said:


> Yeah you might be right. I think it was also a way of venting my frustrations with myself. Since I always overanalyze myself and all this personality typology stuff feeds into it more often than not, you know? But yeah I have a lot of qualities of 9 but also a lot of 6 and I ping-pong back between them, sometimes I am not sure how much I'm joking about things and how much I'm trying to say something that I have no other way of saying.


I'll admit it's a rare thing that someone sparks my admiration with a single post. This impressed me. 

I have something that may help if you're interested.


Understanding something and not quite having the vocabulary for it is a thing I relate to. For type 5s the gadget is a double oscillating, cyclic drive cam with a 3 degree inclination. For me, it's just a thing that functions like a seesaw, and moves this other thing into proper position. I have to hunt for the vocabulary, or explain it using analogy and metaphor... but I do understand it.

You did that in a fashion: _I'm frustrated with myself, and with this whole enneagram thing - so I'll turn it into a joke, and mock it. _

The analogy here is the joke/mocking is a your frustration. 


But what I see is that you're trying. You're seeking something. Whether it be a way to express yourself as you wish you could... or just getting to know who you are. Perhaps both. 

So the thing that might help... continue with the analogy. Fine tune your use of it. Think about what you're feeling, and what you wish you knew how to say... and find a way to relate it to something it's _like_.


Also, if you're interested and ready... there are things that can differentiate 6 from 9. And I can help with that. I highly suspect that whichever you are, the other is your fix. 

Some background on me... I joined in 2009 when the forum was young. I brought discussion of enneagram here, and subsequently a sub-forum was created. When the founder "Lance/Happy" stepped down and turned the running of the forum over to the users I was asked to be one of its first admin. 

So I've been at this for a while, and time has not dulled my edge.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Grim said:


> Something I did not mention in my earlier posts about 4w3s being superficial is that I've seen a situation where the 4 didn't know what to say or do.
> 
> Such as with a compliment. Are you supposed to give one back? Just say thanks and move on? Tell a story about why you chose X thing being complimented, or where you bought it... or that a friend suggested it?
> 
> Maybe they really don't feel like saying anything, and just want to hide under a stack of blankets and wait for it all to go away (could be a bit more 9 fix)... but end up feeling like something is required so they say _something_... and hope for the best.
> 
> 
> Then... because it's not what they really felt, feel like they were just fake and the exchange was superficial... because not authentic.
> 
> Is this something you relate to?
> 
> 
> I'd suspect 4w5s have the same internal struggle, but are less likely to say something that breaks the cool, mysterious image...thus negating the issue.


I do relate to that, but I don't interpret it as superficial. Just socially awkward.


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## Vaka

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Well as a 4w3 I relate to what those 4w3s had told her. Especially this part:_ *"The 4w3s in my thread were pretty upfront about a sense of 'superficiality' and that there's more an emphasis on projecting an image that they feel reflects their specialness, but may still have the 3 flavor of projecting an image that's at least their idea of perfection."*_ Just because I am a core type 4, does not mean I don't experience the full effects of my 3 wing. My 3 wing is superficial, deceiving, and clouds my values / self-expression. But being a 4, it's only a part of who I am, and I readily admit that there is a part of me that is superficial (and that I try to challenge to the fullest extent possible). I value my truth above all else, so that's why I'm being honest. My 3 wing is distracting, it does not let me stray off into what I really want to focus my energy on. It often causes me to compromise. It's like I have a voice of an annoying child in my head, which keeps pointing things out, and they kind of have a point, but I don't want to legitimize their presence. Like those movie scenes, "Mom, aren't you going to get the keys," and you're immediately annoyed but you also know they're not totally wrong. Or "Mom can you buy me an ice cream" and you don't want to, but you also know there's no reason not to, so you try to meet them in the middle and give them a scoop of vanilla. Yeah, I just don't see this child's perspective to be refined or pertinent enough. Like I can tell that my main concerns are distinct, yet I still meet this voice in the middle. That doesn't mean I strive for "perfection" as an image, but I definitely am filtered despite my quirky nature. Both 3 and 4 are image consciousness, so I am hypersensitive to what others think of me, and I'm motivated to give them a positive impression (cause my 4 alone wants to be magical, extraordinary, exceptional). More times than not, my 3 wing pulls material in for my 4 to overreact to and consider, which feeds into comparing myself to others, and ultimately my sense of being defective and unlike others. So yeah, that's just my experience lol


Some thoughts...
For the general population, being considered 'superficial' is rather distasteful. Nobody wants to be considered superficial, or most people don't. For the 4w3, could it be an act of defiance in that way? Like they're willing to own up and be honest about the superficialities of their experience whereas 'the others' aren't? You noted something I was thinking previously too, that it's about honesty

Question too... When you say you're motivated to give a positive impression, how do you go about doing that? Will you manipulate your image to something collectively appealing? Or will you manipulate your image to something more authentic but like flavoring it in a way that has more mass appeal? 

I value honesty about myself too, so oftentimes I'll say things that might turn people off or seem too dark or too deep, but I don't perceive myself as superficial. I'm not sure if that's just a mental block or something, but I don't. I admit I care what people think but for most of my life I've felt an inability to change my image or give a positive impression like I was born different and there's nothing I could do to change that. I don't think I could perceive myself as superficial because honestly, I'm extremely selfindulgent, indulged in my emotions and thoughts and ideas and impressions and whatever. So on the contrary, my selfindulgence almost makes me want to puke lmfao


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

.


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## 480

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I do relate to that, but I don't interpret it as superficial. Just socially awkward. Sometimes I feel like I go for big life-oriented questions or topics instead of small talk, which can get awkward because I'm forcing a meaningful conversation and some people don't want to be a part of that. But I do relate to what you're saying, where many times I have no idea what route to go in interactions with people, because I want to be exceptional. I want to wow them, and I end up doing nothing close to that lol. I don't want to just say "thank you" or give a compliment back. So I freeze, and sometimes I just pretend like I'm not accepting the compliment (or if someone is thanking me), and pretend it's not a big deal. But really I just don't know how to handle it. With interactions with people, I'm actually not superficial at all. Maybe self-inhibited and feeling like I'm not having the meaningful interaction that I want to have, or taking it to the level that I want to take it (maybe due to being Sx-last as well). But with my own life decisions and self-expression, I somewhat strive for a polished image, I consider (but don't always act on) what brings me the most success, and I compromise my values occasionally. I don't know, overall I'm not superficial, but my point is I am influenced by having a 3 wing.


Thank you for the insight. I'd never heard of the idea of a polished image before. And I think I understand what you mean by being influenced by your three wing... but it's hard for me to relate to because I don't see wings in that way. To me a personality type is an entity unto itself. The wings are not accessories. So reading that I have a hard time relating, because to me that's like saying I was influenced by my right arm. 

What I think people are doing when they look at it like that is finding a reason to plug certain traits into. I do X because I have X.

Whereas I look at it like, I do X because that's what I do.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

.


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## Vaka

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> For the second test, I received my self-identified tritype! How cool is that to know yourself better than a few strangers online know you!
> 
> 
> View attachment 808263
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, and as much as I'd _love_ to be, it seems I am not a 9.


Why would you love it personally? 
I've known 9s and I know they struggle a lot with their identity and it is a painful one just like all the enneagram fixations are painful


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Vaka said:


> Why would you love it personally?
> I've known 9s and I know they struggle a lot with their identity and it is a painful one just like all the enneagram fixations are painful


I've always romanticized 9. I really don't even know why. It's not a type that I relate to on a fundamental level (in terms of the basic fear / desire and other unconscious motivations). Out of all the types, it is one of the few that I understand and empathize with the least (along with 8 and 5), because I just don't relate to it personally. Yet I would love to be in a healthy 9 state. I feel like it's the opposite of what I am with 4, 6, and 1 reinforcing one another. In my therapy sessions in the past, I have learned to adopt mindfulness and a lot of DBT, which is sort of about allowing overwhelming acceptance of your issues while also trying to work on them. And that entire therapeutic process felt like learning to absorb positive 9-energy


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## Vaka

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I've always romanticized 9. I really don't even know why. It's not a type that I relate to on a fundamental level (in terms of the basic fear / desire and other unconscious motivations). Out of all the types, it is one of the few that I understand and empathize with the least (along with 8 and 5), because I just don't relate to it personally. Yet I would love to be in a healthy 9 state. I feel like it's the opposite of what I am with 4, 6, and 1 reinforcing one another. In my therapy sessions in the past, I have learned to adopt mindfulness and a lot of DBT, which is sort of about allowing overwhelming acceptance of your issues while also trying to work on them. And that entire therapeutic process felt like learning to absorb positive 9-energy


I'm working on mindfulness myself. I'm very selfaware and I see that as a strength, but I have a devil of a time being in the present moment. I think that's a common INxJ issue, being in the present. And I also have a habit of closing up if there's an especially intense moment and people are expecting emotional reactions out of me. That's one of the ways I relate to 5. I just completely go cold and I don't even want to. I despise it. I also have trouble with being grounded or taking action in the moment. In classic 4 and introvert style, I may be selfaware, but it's usually by going through things in retrospect lmfao. Being present is not a strength of mine. But I enjoy activities that force me out of my mind and inner self like sex, intense exercise, fighting, being in the ocean. Anything intense, I love

Actually, I have this odd dynamic of either not being very grounded, or being incredibly impulsive. I'll go in waves. For a period of time I may not be very in the moment or connected to the moment, but then I'll go into impulse, overindulgence mode. That's been my habit at least

I try not to romanticize any types cuz I don't wanna be biased about myself and whatever my tritype may be. I actually have no idea what my tritype is since I haven't really focused on it and have been paying most attention to my core type. I was into enneagram a few yrs ago, but i came back to it cuz I feel like it may help me gain some insights for right now


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Vaka said:


> I'm working on mindfulness myself. I'm very selfaware and I see that as a strength, but I have a devil of a time being in the present moment. I think that's a common INxJ issue, being in the present. And I also have a habit of closing up if there's an especially intense moment and people are expecting emotional reactions out of me. That's one of the ways I relate to 5. I just completely go cold and I don't even want to. I despise it. I also have trouble with being grounded or taking action in the moment. In classic 4 and introvert style, I may be selfaware, but it's usually by going through things in retrospect lmfao. Being present is not a strength of mine. But I enjoy activities that force me out of my mind and inner self like sex, intense exercise, fighting, being in the ocean. Anything intense, I love
> 
> Actually, I have this odd dynamic of either not being very grounded, or being incredibly impulsive. I'll go in waves. For a period of time I may not be very in the moment or connected to the moment, but then I'll go into impulse, overindulgence mode. That's been my habit at least
> 
> I try not to romanticize any types cuz I don't wanna be biased about myself and whatever my tritype may be. I actually have no idea what my tritype is since I haven't really focused on it and have been paying most attention to my core type. I was into enneagram a few yrs ago, but i came back to it cuz I feel like it may help me gain some insights for right now


For me, my favorite thing about mindfulness is the passivity that it allows. Instead of being present and intensely participant in a current activity (which sounds like Se), I feel adrift, like I am a part of the background. The thoughts and feelings come and go in waves, but my core self remains present and is unswayed. It's been a magical experience incorporating it into my life.


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## Vaka

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> For me, my favorite thing about mindfulness is the passivity that it allows. Instead of being present and intensely participant in a current activity (which sounds like Se), I feel adrift, like I am a part of the background. The thoughts and feelings come and go in waves, but my core self remains present and is unswayed. It's been a magical experience incorporating it into my life.


I actually despite passivity(in myself). I'm not a passive person whatsoever. I'm too passionate and intense for that. I'm not like looking down on you or anything, we all have our individual ways, I'm just explaining myself haha. I'm very very passionate about insight and truth and also about what I want out of life. Well, i don't believe in a single truth, but I'm passionate about finding my truths in my universe(as I believe all is subjective) and especially the truths about myself. I also have a very strong will and drive. Mindfulness for me is actually, oddly enough, an expression of my lack of passivity. I think selfawareness is one of the most important things. All we really have is ourselves and our 'self'


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Vaka said:


> I actually despite passivity(in myself). I'm not a passive person whatsoever. I'm too passionate and intense for that. I'm not like looking down on you or anything, we all have our individual ways, I'm just explaining myself haha. I'm very very passionate about insight and truth and also about what I want out of life. Well, i don't believe in a single truth, but I'm passionate about finding my truths in my universe(as I believe all is subjective) and especially the truths about myself. I also have a very strong will and drive. Mindfulness for me is actually, oddly enough, an expression of my lack of passivity. I think selfawareness is one of the most important things. All we really have is ourselves and our 'self'


Exactly why it feels so good!!!! I am too idealistic, too involved. And passivity is a relief. To know what is here will go, and to just embrace existence. Maybe it's an Si thing.


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## Vaka

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Exactly why it feels so good!!!! I am too idealistic, too involved. And passivity is a relief.


That's interesting. I don't know if I could ever find it a relief. To me it'd feel like I may just be letting life pass me by or something. And tbh, a part of me loves that life is a fight. I love the fight, the grittiness of it, the struggle, taking the blows and getting tf back up again. And I love constant transformation. Tbh, a part of me also really loves instability lmfao


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## darcstar3

I guess you guys don't know me, and i don't really know anything about ennegram, but this thread caught my attention and I'd like to know more



Grim said:


> Something I did not mention in my earlier posts about 4w3s being superficial is that I've seen a situation where the 4 didn't know what to say or do.
> 
> Such as with a compliment. Are you supposed to give one back? Just say thanks and move on? Tell a story about why you chose X thing being complimented, or where you bought it... or that a friend suggested it?
> 
> Maybe they really don't feel like saying anything, and just want to hide under a stack of blankets and wait for it all to go away (could be a bit more 9 fix)... but end up feeling like something is required so they say _something_... and hope for the best.
> 
> 
> Then... because it's not what they really felt, feel like they were just fake and the exchange was superficial... because not authentic.
> 
> Is this something you relate to?
> 
> 
> I'd suspect 4w5s have the same internal struggle, but are less likely to say something that breaks the cool, mysterious image...thus negating the issue.


I relate to that
I dunno as i feel that I'm superficial, but i usually don't want to say stuff like that just because i feel like I should, it just feels fake and that's not me
But i also hate not saying anything and feel like I'm being rude
But by then it's too late to respond naturally, so i just stay quiet, lol

I'm better when I'm working though, my work persona is smiley and happy, and I've learnt to dish out compliments shamelessly to the kids



Vaka said:


> That's interesting. I don't know if I could ever find it a relief. To me it'd feel like I may just be letting life pass me by or something. And tbh, a part of me loves that life is a fight. I love the fight, the grittiness of it, the struggle, taking the blows and getting tf back up again. And I love constant transformation. Tbh, a part of me also really loves instability lmfao


Cannot relate to this
I love peace and quiet and knowing what's happening and expected
Cannot do fighty stuff, i give up way too easy

But i am kinda getting down at the fact that life is passing me by... Not enough to do something about it, but...


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## Paradigm

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I would love to discover after all this time that I'm a new enneagram. Cause I always felt inhibited as a 4, doomed that I will be this way forever. So I would like to find out I'm a 9 or something, cause I'd imagine things to be a lot smoother sailing for them. *I don't know though, I'm just open to discovering my identity, even though I know I'm not anything other than 4. *The same with MBTI, I often question myself for the fun of it, hoping I'd discover I'm a new type. Like I always wonder what if I'm an ISFP, even though I know pretty well I'm not. But that is why I'm so open to be exploring this with you guys. Also, self-doubt lol.


I appreciate the reply and your explanation to @owlet's question, very much so. It was very telling, I feel. But the bolded is a bit concerning and makes me... wonder a bit.

Since I owe it to you for bringing it up in the first place: you might roll your eyes, but I see core 6w7 for you. It's not your ISFJ confusing me or anything like that. I see you saying the same thing 6w7s do but using 4 catchphrases: feeling defective, feeling like everyone knows more, seeking belonging. You have a Reactive streak, which I didn't entirely see before, and I think your w7 is stronger than your w3. It would make sense why you don't like your "3ish traits" yet feel very connected to them, as well. A wing isn't something one fights against, it's just a part of who you are; your disintegration point is something you typically try to avoid but end up doing anyway (usually, unconsciously; when given a system [Enneagram], it's easier to make it a conscious avoidance).

I don't entirely know your history with the Enneagram, so I'm not sure what to explain. You seem to go more off behaviors and words, not motivations and gestalts - which may simply be a preference difference between us or just a sign I read too much. (I occasionally notice that Ne/Si types do, both literally and metaphorically, perceive differently than Ni/Se types, that's all.) But, to put shortly, the way I see the Enneagram, most of what you wrote of what you think is "X type" or "Y type"... isn't. Like how you seem to assume introversion prohibits being an Assertive type, or that all 6s are always responsible. That's just behavior, and behavior can change/adapt/etc for the smallest of reasons. Enneagram is _why_, not _how_.

I've gotten sick since my last post (migraines are a bitch), so it's my fault for not being able to continue in depth. But I can provide you with plenty of links, in no particular order:
Sixes - the enneagram ...info from the underground
Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions
https://www.personalitycafe.com/enn...0-type-comparisons-common-misconceptions.html
https://www.personalitycafe.com/typ...ing-you-need-another-w5-w7-uncertain-6-p.html
https://www.personalitycafe.com/typ...types-misconceptions-associated-type-6-a.html
https://www.personalitycafe.com/enn...364162-reasons-why-its-not-easy-type-6-a.html
https://www.personalitycafe.com/typ...t-does-type-6-anxiety-actually-feel-like.html
https://www.personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/162253-6w5-vs-6w7-discussion.html
https://www.personalitycafe.com/enn...y-forum/1148474-why-enneagram-6-nonsense.html

And btw I'm a solid 6w7 and haven't left the house for a week, and flake out on people just by being forgetful :wink: Happened just last Saturday... I felt really bad about it.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Paradigm said:


> I appreciate the reply and your explanation to @owlet's question, very much so. It was very telling, I feel. But the bolded is a bit concerning and makes me... wonder a bit.
> 
> Since I owe it to you for bringing it up in the first place: you might roll your eyes, but I see core 6w7 for you. It's not your ISFJ confusing me or anything like that. I see you saying the same thing 6w7s do but using 4 catchphrases: feeling defective, feeling like everyone knows more, seeking belonging. You have a Reactive streak, which I didn't entirely see before, and I think your w7 is stronger than your w3. It would make sense why you don't like your "3ish traits" yet feel very connected to them, as well. A wing isn't something one fights against, it's just a part of who you are; your disintegration point is something you typically try to avoid but end up doing anyway (usually, unconsciously; when given a system [Enneagram], it's easier to make it a conscious avoidance).
> 
> I don't entirely know your history with the Enneagram, so I'm not sure what to explain. You seem to go more off behaviors and words, not motivations and gestalts - which may simply be a preference difference between us or just a sign I read too much. (I occasionally notice that Ne/Si types do, both literally and metaphorically, literally perceive differently than Ni/Se types, that's all.) But, to put shortly, the way I see the Enneagram, most of what you wrote of what you think is "X type" or "Y type"... isn't. Like how you seem to assume introversion prohibits being an Assertive type, or that all 6s are always responsible. That's just behavior, and behavior can change/adapt/etc for the smallest of reasons. Enneagram is _why_, not _how_.
> 
> I've gotten sick since my last post (migraines are a bitch), so it's my fault for not being able to continue in depth. But I can provide you with plenty of links, in no particular order:
> Sixes - the enneagram ...info from the underground
> Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions
> https://www.personalitycafe.com/enn...0-type-comparisons-common-misconceptions.html
> https://www.personalitycafe.com/typ...ing-you-need-another-w5-w7-uncertain-6-p.html
> https://www.personalitycafe.com/typ...types-misconceptions-associated-type-6-a.html
> https://www.personalitycafe.com/enn...364162-reasons-why-its-not-easy-type-6-a.html
> https://www.personalitycafe.com/typ...t-does-type-6-anxiety-actually-feel-like.html
> https://www.personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/162253-6w5-vs-6w7-discussion.html
> https://www.personalitycafe.com/enn...y-forum/1148474-why-enneagram-6-nonsense.html
> 
> And btw I'm a solid 6w7 and haven't left the house for a week, and flake out on people just by being forgetful :wink: Happened just last Saturday... I felt really bad about it.


I appreciate your post, cause I was waiting for it after I had agreed to explore with you. Your post actually went in depth with your analysis, and you offered an interesting perspective that can potentially have merit. I know for certain my head fix is 6w7. Also, I have wondered if my core is actually 6w7 instead of 4w3. I don't know, I do find it hard for me to express myself on this forum fully without an immediate situation, possibly due to Si-Ne, but also not valuing Fi. So I do rely on catchphrases, because I don't feel motivated or impassioned enough to express my emotions without a specific context. I would love to find out how to explore this possibility further though. 

I just searched the "levels of development" on Enneagram Institute.

For 6: "Become self-affirming, trusting of self and others, independent yet symbiotically interdependent and cooperative as an equal. Belief in self leads to true courage, positive thinking, leadership, and rich self-expression."

For 4: " Profoundly creative, expressing the personal and the universal, possibly in a work of art. Inspired, self-renewing and regenerating: able to transform all their experiences into something valuable: self-creative."

At my best, I feel like the 4 description is more accurate. But maybe there are better ways to explore this.


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## Vaka

Grim said:


> So there are some key ways to differentiate... there's also some misconceptions that can lead you down some unnecessary rabbit holes.
> 
> As for readily noticeable differences... 4s with a 5 wing play it cool. They're more reserved and somewhat "standoff-ish" than their 3 wing counterparts. Both wings can keep a distance and hope you notice them, and pursue... but the 3 wingers are are known for more obvious about their interests. This might be what leads folks to think 4w3s are "superficial". They are anything but... in fact they are quite genuine and open people. The catch is that the thing that grabs their attention, may not hold it for long. Their intense excitement about one thing can quickly be forgotten when they spot something else and have a sort of "explosion of feels" about this new thing. That can manifest in an actual squeal and exclamation of OMG!!! The quick switch can leave you wondering if they were really interested in the first thing at all. The answer is yes they were... but there was a distraction. 4w3s tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves... 4w5s may feel as intensely, but may not want you to know that, or see it. 4w3s maybe embarrass themselves with their unfiltered emotional "outbursts", but you'll seldom find 4w5s caught up in such moments.
> 
> 
> One thing of note, is that it might help to think of types as a particular food dish. Like say a soup. The wings are best described as whether it's more salty or more peppery. With the "fixes" further affecting the flavor of the dish in the form of different types of meat, or soup base, or veggies. No aspect of any personality type really takes on "pure-ishness" from another type... any more than a bowl of soup can take on fundamental characteristics of a large pepperoni pizza, or vice versa. They can be made to share the taste/flavor of each other by what they're made of... but pizza is obviously pizza, and soup is obviously soup no matter their constituents.
> 
> Any time you're faced with an "I relate to this, but what about this trait of mine over here?!" moment, it might be more helpful to consider that it's just plain okay. If you really are type X, then that trait fits just fine with type x and doesn't really need a complex rationale. Remember that the profiles are never going to be perfect... nor can they ever be "complete" or contain definitive listings of traits that are _always _type X, or _never _type Y. Some things are just more common or even universal than people usually give them credit for.


I'd definitely say I'm more in the 'play it cool' camp. I've been told by one person I seem like James Dean in attitude. I'm very reserved and standoffish, quite aloof. I tend to seem cold even tho I care a lot about people and I feel very deeply. I find it difficult to express my emotions in the moment and sometimes I even have trouble being in touch with my emotions in the moment. So I don't relate to the stereotype of the 'dramatic' 4w3, but I don't know if that's really a dealbreaker anyway

I'm not sure I wear my heart on my sleeve or not. The thing is, most of my connection with people is on the internet. I'm a very open person, I'll open my chest and reveal all the gory details just as I reveal them to my own self, but I'm quite socially anxious, so this is moreso in writing and online than it is face to face. I have those issues expressing emotions, but sometimes I wish I was better at expressing my emotions and didn't feel overwhelmed or like withdrawing. Other times, I do wish to hide my emotions, but they tend to be clearly visible in my eyes. I've been told that. It's very inadvertent, but I've been told I 'smolder' or whatever. Like if I'm angry, I won't wanna express it, but it'll be quite obvious in my eyes. If I'm annoyed, I find it almost impossible, to hide it. But it's not in words, it's in my face. I very very rarely have emotional outbursts. The only time they happen is when I'm absolutely pushed to the edge. I have many breakdowns and I cry a lot either because things strike me as beautiful or I'm in emotional pain, I may be driven to the edge of insanity, but I do that shit in private

At this point, I don't care about tri types. The only reason I'd care is if I was a 4w3 because then I know I'd have to have a 5 fix. The reason I don't care is because I know my 4 shit, but I don't have the true fixations of any of the other types besides 4 and 5. Like I'm pretty sure I have a 9 fix, but the example I used was that I knew a 9 and I find it hard to understand their fixation since it's almost the opposite of the 4 fixation, but I can tell I don't relate to the experience. So I just find it most important to focus on my 4 core and the instincts as most of my issues have come from being a sexual 4

I agree with you tho...we may have traits of both wings but having one trait or two of the other wing shouldn't make us have to go through and rethink everything lmfao

And I know the profiles are never perfect. Most are quite faulty and people of the same types and instincts may still have a different relationship with their fixations. That's why I like to get to the core. I don't care for the superficial shit. I get to the core because that's the only shit I can work with. Detached traits make zero sense to me. I HAVE to be able to attach them to a core 'why' so I can understand the underlying mechanisms which allows me to understand the variations and how the same type can manifest in a multitude of different ways. I don't judge 'whats', I look for 'whys'


----------



## Paradigm

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I appreciate your post, cause I was waiting for it after I had agreed to explore with you. Your post actually went in depth with your analysis, and you offered an interesting perspective that can potentially have merit.


Cool, I'm happy to hear that and happy to help if I can 



> I do find it hard for me to express myself on this forum fully without an immediate situation, possibly due to Si-Ne, but also not valuing Fi. So I do rely on catchphrases, because I don't feel motivated or impassioned enough to express my emotions without a specific context. I would love to find out how to explore this possibility further though.


I think the part about preferring/needing context to more easiliy express yourself is part of the IxxJ (Pi-Je) package, but I was told that the expressing emotions bit was Fe (by another ISFJ). Apparently it's more common for you guys to need to talk through your emotions to know what they are, or something like that? I'm simply parroting, not saying it's true. I sometimes do the same thing by talking about my ideas out loud and belatedly realize they're dumb, so maybe it's like that?

...But an INTJ discussing Fe never goes well, so I'm gonna stop before I mess it up.



> I just searched the "levels of development" on Enneagram Institute.


EI tends to glorify 4/5 and often forget that 6 has its own nice, independent qualities. I think w7 would account for many of your 4ish habits, and I don't trust them to be able to do 7 well, either. (I've only liked Ichazo's 7, tbh, so there's that, too.)

But I'm not discounting how you relate or anything like that. Just that their "6" infamously sucks.


----------



## Vaka

darcstar3 said:


> Cannot relate to this
> I love peace and quiet and knowing what's happening and expected
> Cannot do fighty stuff, i give up way too easy
> 
> But i am kinda getting down at the fact that life is passing me by... Not enough to do something about it, but...


lol, I'm a surprisingly stubborn girl for one who seems pretty laidback most of the time. I refuse to give up on what I want and what I desire. It's just not possible. I need my introvert time, so I'll need my quiet space in the dark alone with my music as that's part of my process, but chaos is also part of my process. I love the mystery of life, not knowing what's coming next for better or for worse. I know I can get through whatever life throws at me and I have the ability to find meaning in everything even if it seems bad. But being open to the chaos of life can also bring about the most unexpected beauty. I have to admit, I can get whiplash from my emotions, but when things are stable for a little too long, I get a bit antsy and sometimes even pray for some emotional and mental pain because it helps me. It's how I transform, learn, and create(I'm a writer)


----------



## goldthysanura

Grim said:


> I'll admit it's a rare thing that someone sparks my admiration with a single post. This impressed me.
> 
> I have something that may help if you're interested.
> 
> 
> Understanding something and not quite having the vocabulary for it is a thing I relate to. For type 5s the gadget is a double oscillating, cyclic drive cam with a 3 degree inclination. For me, it's just a thing that functions like a seesaw, and moves this other thing into proper position. I have to hunt for the vocabulary, or explain it using analogy and metaphor... but I do understand it.
> 
> You did that in a fashion: _I'm frustrated with myself, and with this whole enneagram thing - so I'll turn it into a joke, and mock it. _
> 
> The analogy here is the joke/mocking is a your frustration.
> 
> 
> But what I see is that you're trying. You're seeking something. Whether it be a way to express yourself as you wish you could... or just getting to know who you are. Perhaps both.
> 
> So the thing that might help... continue with the analogy. Fine tune your use of it. Think about what you're feeling, and what you wish you knew how to say... and find a way to relate it to something it's _like_.
> 
> 
> Also, if you're interested and ready... there are things that can differentiate 6 from 9. And I can help with that. I highly suspect that whichever you are, the other is your fix.
> 
> Some background on me... I joined in 2009 when the forum was young. I brought discussion of enneagram here, and subsequently a sub-forum was created. When the founder "Lance/Happy" stepped down and turned the running of the forum over to the users I was asked to be one of its first admin.
> 
> So I've been at this for a while, and time has not dulled my edge.


What are these things that differentiate 6 and 9? I know that at the center of 9 there's a lot of inertia, which I have in spades, but I think deep down I do want to get moving and do the things I really want to do, it's just that I am afraid of it for various reasons, so I put myself into a state of torpor a lot of the time to mask the fear. But also, I often have no clue what I want, which is a 9 problem. On the surface I have some fear, then underneath that is inertia, then under that more fear etc., as though I'm a layer cake of 9 and 6. Sometimes I don't speak my mind because I'm afraid of the consequences, but that could be read as either 6 or 9 depending on how you look at it right?

I like metaphors and analogies but when I'm frustrated the best way for me to deal with it is sometimes to just laugh at whatever I'm frustrated about, since it a) makes the thing I'm frustrated about seem less scary and b) I have a tendency to dwell on things too much so if I can laugh about them then maybe I can finally move on.

Like one time when I was ten I made a flow chart of how to have a conversation because I felt so socially awkward, I guess that was my way of making a joke out of it that made it easier to deal with.

If I were going to make a metaphor/analogy for my frustration with personality typologies, I'd say that I feel like a large squishy blob-like animal that's been subdivided by imaginary barriers, into different cubes, and researchers are looking at the different cubes on a computer program and saying that only one of the cubes contains the essence of the blob, and they keep arguing over which cube it is, and they keep going back and forth over which cube is most ideal for the essence to be contained in. Then meanwhile I'm thinking "come on guys, stop being so stupid, this isn't even science! All of me is the essence of the blob!" Or, instead of that they're putting me in differently-shaped tanks of water to see which one I most naturally fit inside, and even when I'm in the one that fits the best, it's still very uncomfortable and I want to be taken outside of it into the ocean again.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Paradigm said:


> I think the part about preferring/needing context to more easiliy express yourself is part of the IxxJ (Pi-Je) package, but I was told that the expressing emotions bit was Fe (by another ISFJ). Apparently it's more common for you guys to need to talk through your emotions to know what they are, or something like that? I'm simply parroting, not saying it's true. I sometimes do the same thing by talking about my ideas out loud and belatedly realize they're dumb, so maybe it's like that?
> 
> ...But an INTJ discussing Fe never goes well, so I'm gonna stop before I mess it up.


Fe is more expressive given an immediate situation, but how am I supposed to express myself if there is nothing concrete and immediate enough to feed off of in my emotional environment (i.e. on this forum)? If there is nothing I perceive to be emotional or warrant me to open up emotionally, I kind of just don't like going there. I would say expressing your inner self (which is stable and not dependent on the situation) is more Fi than Fe. It seems like Fi users create narratives about themselves, independent of the audience or context. Like right now as I type these words, my only context is my knowledge of enneagram types and MBTI, and the fact that we all have knowledge of these systems. That is just underwhelming imo in getting me to be more expressive. I think that's why I over-rely on the established frameworks we have, rather than speaking from a more personal standpoint. I don't know, Fe is very much "emotional objectivity" and so I can be more focused on others emotionally, but also more muted and unsure of how to feel when it comes to sharing my own emotions.

But thanks again, really! It gave me something to consider..


----------



## 480

goldthysanura said:


> What are these things that differentiate 6 and 9? I know that at the center of 9 there's a lot of inertia, which I have in spades, but I think deep down I do want to get moving and do the things I really want to do, it's just that I am afraid of it for various reasons, so I put myself into a state of torpor a lot of the time to mask the fear.


In the context of gut types this isn't really what being inert/inertia means. For the gut types or "anger triad" it's a question of the expression of anger. 1s get angry at themselves for not living up to their values. 6w5s sometimes mistype as 1s because 6w5s tend to focus on the behavior of others and make sure everyone is following the rules. Think about police. So they feel they're fixated on always doing the right thing... so that's 1, right? No, because of the* reason *for the behavior. Enneagram is all about the reasons.

8s anger is focused outward. But 8s are also among the most inert types. They have no problem taking action, or saying the thing others would shy away from. The inertia is more about a sort of solidity in their action/inaction. Little things are not going to move or stop them, or distract them. So you may be aware they're angry, but an 8 will literally speak to you calmly and let you know that they feel a cold, boiling rage over something you did. That's the inertia of the gut types.

For 9s anger is denied. It's less about being afraid, and more about "who am I to get angry about this?". 



goldthysanura said:


> I like metaphors and analogies but when I'm frustrated the best way for me to deal with it is sometimes to just laugh at whatever I'm frustrated about, since it a) makes the thing I'm frustrated about seem less scary and b) I have a tendency to dwell on things too much so if I can laugh about them then maybe I can finally move on.



Gut types are usually the most comfortable with analogy. It has to do with a particular brand of logic. It's more instinctual as contrasted by the type 5 braininess. 5s have all this vocabulary for what a thing is and how it works... gut types tend to look at something have a sense of how it works... the order of things, the relationships between the pieces. So their explanations are usually in the form of saying what something is like, or not like. Which is where their understanding stems from.




goldthysanura said:


> If I were going to make a metaphor/analogy for my frustration with personality typologies, I'd say that I feel like a large squishy blob-like animal that's been subdivided by imaginary barriers, into different cubes, and researchers are looking at the different cubes on a computer program and saying that only one of the cubes contains the essence of the blob, and they keep arguing over which cube it is, and they keep going back and forth over which cube is most ideal for the essence to be contained in. Then meanwhile I'm thinking "come on guys, stop being so stupid, this isn't even science! All of me is the essence of the blob!" Or, instead of that they're putting me in differently-shaped tanks of water to see which one I most naturally fit inside, and even when I'm in the one that fits the best, it's still very uncomfortable and I want to be taken outside of it into the ocean again.


I feel it's best to keep from trying to boil things down to the nth degree. People and personalities are just not that neat and tidy. And where understanding fails, trying to cram minutia in little boxes takes over. And different personalities go about all this differently too. Some will read something and go, yup... that's me. And move on. Others will go.. but wait... what about this one little trait over here. Surely that means I'm this type or that. And roughly 100% of the time that one little trait is something that can be applied to anyone. 

As an example:



goldthysanura said:


> But also, I often have no clue what I want, which is a 9 problem.


This doesn't really mean a thing. Some types are more decisive than others. But a statement like this wouldn't move the needle much for me at all. It can fit too many things. Now if I were to see a trend of indecisiveness, it may exclude some personality types... but it wouldn't be enough by itself to say you're definitely X.


----------



## 480

Vaka said:


> I agree with you tho...we may have traits of both wings but having one trait or two of the other wing shouldn't make us have to go through and rethink everything lmfao
> 
> ...The reason I don't care is because I know my 4 shit, but I don't have the true fixations of any of the other types besides 4 and 5...


Except that's not at all what I said. 

I do not think anyone has traits of "both wings". Depending on what those traits are, they're just core traits. They apply to that type regardless of wings, and apply to both wings.

And when people say "fix" as in: a type 4 with a 9 fix. What's being said is that everyone has gut, and heart "energy". Or issues, or flavoring. However you want to phrase it. 

What no one ever has is the fixation of more than one core types. 5s fixate on competency. That's what's most important to them. 4s don't. And while no one is going to say "I'm perfectly fine with being incompetent" or "Yeah, I'm totally okay with being hurt or controlled by others." It doesn't make them the core type of that fixation. 

It's what's most important to the person... and only 1 thing is *most* important.


----------



## Vaka

Grim said:


> Except that's not at all what I said.
> 
> I do not think anyone has traits of "both wings". Depending on what those traits are, they're just core traits. They apply to that type regardless of wings, and apply to both wings.
> 
> And when people say "fix" as in: a type 4 with a 9 fix. What's being said is that everyone has gut, and heart "energy". Or issues, or flavoring. However you want to phrase it.
> 
> What no one ever has is the fixation of more than one core types. 5s fixate on competency. That's what's most important to them. 4s don't. And while no one is going to say "I'm perfectly fine with being incompetent" or "Yeah, I'm totally okay with being hurt or controlled by others." It doesn't make them the core type of that fixation.
> 
> It's what's most important to the person... and only 1 thing is *most* important.


Well I greatly apologize for having misunderstood you, enneagram guru. It's not like anything you've said has actually helped and some of it had absolutely zero relevancy to type 4 whatsoever

Also, people are complex. Think outside the box a little bit


----------



## Vaka

Fuck pizza and bowls of soup enneagram


----------



## 480

Vaka said:


> Well I greatly apologize for having misunderstood you, enneagram guru. It's not like anything you've said has actually helped and some of it had absolutely zero relevancy to type 4 whatsoever
> 
> Also, people are complex. Think outside the box a little bit





Vaka said:


> Fuck pizza and bowls of soup enneagram


Good communication requires clearing up misunderstandings, and is undermined by overreactions like this one. 

If all you wanted was someone to validate you, you could have just said so. I wouldn't have bothered replying.


----------



## 68097

Heart fix:

Okay, I did kind of a run-down comparison of 3 vs 4. I feel like I’m too close to it, but maybe someone who isn’t me / can be objective will have some insights.

(My problem is, I don’t know how much of any of this is influenced by being a self-doubting 6 or sp-1.)

Enneagram 4
The things I do relate to about 4’s is: a tendency to exaggerate and romanticize my flaws, to think most of them make me an unlovable person, to assume people don’t want to be my friend, to pull away from them, to not want others to be “like” me and to find ways to seem different; as a writer and editor, I often look at what my other writers do and then intentionally find a way to stand out / approach a topic from a unique or different perspective, so I “stand out”; an intense… drive behind my creativity. I literally cannot be happy if my writing has not gone well. It scares me sometimes how much my happiness is tied to “how well did writing go today?” I continually search for meaning and am not afraid to look my darkness in the face – other people seem to shy away from, for example, the thought that they could be capable of tremendous evil, but I’m the sort of person who enjoys thinking about what causes people to be evil. I’ve alarmed people by pointing out, for example, how they could have been a Nazi, lol. 

The things I don’t relate to about 4’s is: how melodramatic they seem to be about everything (I can “do” drama but I mostly play it up for laughs), their sensitivity, their emphasis on how special they are (I don’t feel special, though I do have a fear that deep down I’m “ordinary” – I guess that could be a 4 fear?). I read in-depth 4 profiles and just kind of… stare at it and think, “really???”

(It probably doesn't help that a lot of what I see in 4 characters is influenced by a sx/s? stacking. I'm thinking specifically of the Marianne Dashwood 4 type which... I cannot relate to, at all.)


Enneagram 3
The things I do relate to about 3’s are: being out of touch with my feelings and wishing they didn’t exist / finding them an inconvenience, having a strong need to stay busy and produce things, being competitive, not wanting to try and do anything I’m not sure I’ll be good at, having a strong focus and finishing things, finding it hard to take a “vacation” (since I’m not “producing” anything “useful,” I don’t feel like I exist??), not really understanding what “be authentic” means (what?), somewhat blending in to groups I am around (I never merge completely), feeling a lot of shame about failure or not being “good” at things. I tend to delete things that aren’t instantly successful, and find it hard to create only for myself – other people’s praise doesn’t actively make me feel better, but if something doesn’t generate likes or discussions, I find it incredibly hard not to have an attitude of “This isn’t worth my time.” I basically have only a handful of hobbies and get told often that I should have more, since I’m too focused on one thing (writing) – simply because I don’t want to “waste energy” on things that I’m not good at. 

The things I don’t relate to about 3’s are: how they make it seem like the sun shines out of their ass. I may be ashamed about not succeeding in something, but I can’t outright lie about it, so I’ll be honest and admit I’m not a best-selling author, or that my blog hasn’t as many hits as I’d like, or that I’ve failed in my relationships. I don’t see the point in covering it up just to make myself sound better. I’m reactive when blamed for something, but if it’s my fault, I own up to it and fix it. I’ve also heard that 3’s focus on “their future self,” and model themselves after the people they most admire, and … I do not do that. I can’t think of more than a few people I admire (most of them are dead, lol) and… I wouldn’t know the first thing about copying them and it wouldn’t stick anyway?

Thoughts?


----------



## Paradigm

angelcat said:


> I assumed my heart fix was last because I don't make emotional decisions hardly ever; they're always rational and forward-thinking ones (if I do this, this will be the result, that could complicate that and in ten years... so, no, better not do that). If anything, I ignore my feelings until I randomly burst into tears at some point.


I don't think that's a great way to say you're heart-last, because even a 2/3 core could do that, esp. 3. It's all about how you deal with and feel shame. Even shame types won't always admit they're driven by shame, sometimes because it truly may not be the biggest part of their lives (ex: 2 could relate more to "guilt" than "shame," maybe a 3 thinks more "dedication" or "intelligence" than "ashamed of not being X," etc). 

I feel extremely safe putting my heart fix last because I can _literally be unaware of shame in myself,_ not because I'm unemotional. I'm actually more emotional, and much more (openly) Reactive, than most INTJs are (or more likely, will admit), which caused me confusion in the MBTI. But I do have quite a few 4w5 traits/fears, and they're the ones I try to bury the most often (probably a guilt reaction to the shame type, how fun is that).

You have, obviously, indicated you ignore your feelings (typically, a sign of T or Competency), but the question is why. I'm not particularly asking you to explain all that to us - you're clearly thinking on it yourself - just saying, that's the key. 3 fits way more in line with that than 4 does.



> But... 4 vs 3 fix. I lean toward 3 because I feel a constant need to create and produce; I'm pretty miserable if I'm not "working" (usually this is on a creative project or my writing) and I tend to be a little detached from my feelings. But I also crave being a 4 -- and I'm not sure if that's because I am one, or 4's seem more creative and glamorous than 3s (which... could be a 3-ish reason for being a 4, right?).


Well, personally, I didn't see any reason to argue your heart fix. You weren't asking about anything except instincts, and you seemed good with your core type when I asked about the wings. You seem well-educated about most types. 3(w4) never seemed _wrong,_ and while there's always the possibility it's incorrect, I feel like going straight to 4 based on what you've written so far would be more because of the positive bias 4 has and/or the negative bias 2 and 3 has.

And, yes, you can seem like a 4/4-fix for reasons that manifest through other types. I think it happens a lot, personally. "Creativity" is not 4-specific: I know people of all types who are far more creative than I am. Neither is introspection, which I think is also overly correlated to 4. (I did say "being afraid of yourself" may indicate weaker 4, but that's different from "being self-aware.") Along with other stuff, of course, but those are usually the big ones 

While I don't enjoy using tritypes to explain everything, there _is_ the possibility that you may indeed be 613 because of your "veneer" of Competency you keep describing. As I implied, it might be worth looking into if that's not a "veneer" or something from your core (1/3, not 5, maybe even 6->3 disintegration)... But tritype could "help," too. My sister's a 7w6-1w2-3w4 SO/SP and _looks_ Competent (not _is_; neither 1 or 3 is her core by any stretch) while being massively core 7 - in big part because SOC 7 is often like that, too - which is why I'm mentioning this... But again, I wouldn't rely on tritype to wave away inconsistencies so easily.



> So if I'm constantly pushing away from significant others and not bothering to form romantic relationships well into my 30's out of general lack of interest / laziness in that area, would I be correct in assuming that's sx-blind?


FWIW, I considered SO/SX (and SO/SP) for you but instead decided to just trust you that you're SP-first. 

xNTP might be more worthy of looking into, but you were never talking about that, and you expressed some things that seemed out of line with being strong in Ti (xxTP in general). xxTJ doesn't fit. I suppose xNFJ could work... But ENFP with an unhealthy focus on Te might fit, too. If I can seem like an IxFP, you can seem like an xxTJ.

---

Anyway, admittedly, this post was written before you posted your relations to 3/4. And, reading that, you still don't sound 4ish to me. Even the way you say you over-relate as a writer sounds 3ish; if it wasn't for a lack of other-focusedness (beyond the 6 stuff), I'd question 3w2/2w3.


----------



## 68097

Paradigm said:


> I don't think that's a great way to say you're heart-last, because even a 2/3 core could do that, esp. 3.


Fair point.

Allow me to restructure, then -- reading 1 and 6, I identified strongly with both and could see strong elements of both in my personality (the need for external validation and support, fearful of being alone element of the 6; the seeing constant room for improvement / rigidity / restriction of the 1 -- and their good points, also) but... I had a hard time recognizing or identifying with any of the heart fixes. I saw 6 right away, and 1 fairly quickly -- but I waffled between 2, 3, and 4, unable to recognize which one fit and I'm still not sure. (I don't feel my motive is to get love; I help people but then... am just as content for them to go away as to stay, so I ruled out 2.)



> It's all about how you deal with and feel shame. Even shame types won't always admit they're driven by shame, sometimes because it truly may not be the biggest part of their lives (ex: 2 could relate more to "guilt" than "shame," maybe a 3 thinks more "dedication" or "intelligence" than "ashamed of not being X," etc).


Had to think about, what am I ashamed about?

I don't know. Failure? Not being perfect? Being unkind? Inappropriate? Selfish?



> I feel extremely safe putting my heart fix last because I can _literally be unaware of shame in myself,_ not because I'm unemotional. I'm actually more emotional, and much more (openly) Reactive, than most INTJs are (or more likely, will admit), which caused me confusion in the MBTI. But I do have quite a few 4w5 traits/fears, and they're the ones I try to bury the most often (probably a guilt reaction to the shame type, how fun is that).


AHA! I thought I'd seen you as an INFP somewhere! I thought my memory was screwing with me again. 



> You have, obviously, indicated you ignore your feelings (typically, a sign of T or Competency), but the question is why. I'm not particularly asking you to explain all that to us - you're clearly thinking on it yourself - just saying, that's the key. 3 fits way more in line with that than 4 does.


To be brutally honest, I grew up hearing about my sisters both making emotional decisions -- especially the eldest. Her life has been a never-ending source of drama, broken hearts, broken families, and huge mistakes, and that was not something I wanted for myself, so I decided rather early on (about fourteen or so) to never let my emotions rule any of my decisions. And for the most part, I have managed to check most of my emotional impulses. They are still there but... I keep a tight rein on my emotions, because I don't want to make enormous mistakes. I don't want to hurt people or get hurt. I don't want to look back and regret even more than I already do. 



> Well, personally, I didn't see any reason to argue your heart fix. You weren't asking about anything except instincts, and you seemed good with your core type when I asked about the wings. You seem well-educated about most types. 3(w4) never seemed _wrong,_ and while there's always the possibility it's incorrect, I feel like going straight to 4 based on what you've written so far would be more because of the positive bias 4 has and/or the negative bias 2 and 3 has.


I don't mind debating or discussing any of my fixes -- I'm open-minded, especially since I'm still not sure about the heart fix. It took me a long time to decide on 3 and some of it feels right, and some of it feels wrong.



> And, yes, you can seem like a 4/4-fix for reasons that manifest through other types. I think it happens a lot, personally. "Creativity" is not 4-specific: I know people of all types who are far more creative than I am. Neither is introspection, which I think is also overly correlated to 4. (I did say "being afraid of yourself" may indicate weaker 4, but that's different from "being self-aware.") Along with other stuff, of course, but those are usually the big ones


That's good to hear, because the only 4 I know IRL is the most creative person I have ever met.  And she very much fits the core 4 -- lots of drama, a strong need to differentiate herself (especially through her clothes), feeling different and misunderstood and isolated, etc. Lovely girl.



> While I don't enjoy using tritypes to explain everything, there _is_ the possibility that you may indeed be 613 because of your "veneer" of Competency you keep describing. As I implied, it might be worth looking into if that's not a "veneer" or something from your core (1/3, not 5, maybe even 6->3 disintegration)... But tritype could "help," too.


I feel like... a tritype fix like that could explain why I'm not like quite a few of the other ENFPs online, who struggle to finish things, have poor focusing abilities, and are... well, not to be rude but, rather selfish. IMO, 6w7 explains a lot about my need for validation and to make friends with people / keep them happy / be polite (mostly through humor, I might add) while external validation does not really "do anything" for me as it seem to do for a Fe type (I can literally have people praise me up one side and down the other, and I'll still be fixated on something I feel I did wrong / am ashamed about); 1w2 explains a lot about my focus / strong moral opinions / repression of anger and frustration with people who have no follow through; and 3w4 would explain a stronger Te / wanting to look good / semi-detachment from knowing what I really want (plus, of course, 6 ambivalence and uncertainty from the sp).



> FWIW, I considered SO/SX (and SO/SP) for you but instead decided to just trust you that you're SP-first.


So-first 6's tend to be more self-assured and I read their weakness is over-identifying with and being loyal to a higher authority of some kind -- I tend to doubt / challenge / question too much and can't identify with their certainty. I wish I had more certainty, but I don't. 



> xNTP might be more worthy of looking into, but you were never talking about that, and you expressed some things that seemed out of line with being strong in Ti (xxTP in general). xxTJ doesn't fit. I suppose xNFJ could work... But ENFP with an unhealthy focus on Te might fit, too. If I can seem like an IxFP, you can seem like an xxTJ.


My ENTP friends tell me I'm too moralizing (and I retort back they have no morals and then explain all of their friends' likely motivations for their "irrational" decisions to them) so I think that's out.  

I would love to be an NFJ but I know three of them and marvel at their Ni. It's quite remarkable... and so apparent whenever we talk that I do not have it. 



> Anyway, admittedly, this post was written before you posted your relations to 3/4. And, reading that, you still don't sound 4ish to me. Even the way you say you over-relate as a writer sounds 3ish; if it wasn't for a lack of other-focusedness (beyond the 6 stuff), I'd question 3w2/2w3.


Okay. Though, I don't think my motivation for helping people is to get love -- I just do it, because it seems like the right thing to do.

As for my MBTI type -- when I first came to this forum as a total newbie who knew nothing about cognitive functions, I assumed I was an INFJ... but hanging out in their subforum, I found them strange and hard to understand. I could not follow their reasoning at all, nor their seeming tendency to rely a lot on their flashes of insight. So then I shifted to ENFP, and that seemed to fit really well, until I got confused between Fe and Fi. I mistakenly thought that Fe just meant being nice to people, and Fi meant being selfish -- well, I was nice to people, and did not like to be selfish, so I had to be Fe, right? Well, that meant (since I was sure of being a Ne) either an SFJ or an NTP. I thought NTP might work, but... spending time around the real ones showed me that I was certainly not a Ti-dom. So, I quite unhappily regulated myself to the idea of being an ISFJ -- and found myself always straining against it, looking for ways to prove I was DIFFERENT from most ISFJs... unable to relate to them, either. I chafed against it. I asked for other people's opinions. Most of the ones who spoke to me here on the forum agreed that I had to be an SFJ, it was obvious, I had a pleasant "tone" and never got into fights here on the forums... that had to be Fe, etc. 

But people who knew me better argued with me for months, pointed out endlessly my Ne, told me that the speed at which I process information is extremely high; one in particular, an NFJ (5w4, probably) said my greatest flaws are my tendency to move too fast, to leap on ideas too soon, to abandon them too quickly, and that I am always in "a rush... I wish you would slow down in everything -- in how you think, in how you write, because if you could just slow down, I think you'd get it right / be better at what you do." 

So, I crept back to ENFP, with enormous trepidation -- because how could I be sure, when so MANY people had told me over and over again I had to be Fe? I see now that it was my 6 making me unsure, and it's my 6 causing me to have a mild sort of panic attack over the suggestion that I might be an ISFJ after all -- because, am I lying to myself? to others? have I chosen wrong AGAIN? I've studied this for years now -- am I wrong?? what did I miss?? 

But, being kind is not the same as being Fe. And choosing to care about others is not the same as Fe. And I have never been able to feel what other people feel, or even put my feelings very well into words -- unless I write them down. Then, I can do it. But as far as verbalizing them? It's in fits and starts and I have had to rely heavily, at times, on my Fe friends to help me lay out my feelings. Because they feel... intense and weird and deep inside, and like most of them are nobody else's business, which I've been led to believe is... Fi.


----------



## 68097

Since @Mistakenforastranger brought up my type (and then I had to go read things again to reassure myself 

This is pretty much me at my worst:

When they become stressed and mentally fatigued to the point where Ne can no longer maintain its dominance, unhealthy Si urges will finally erupt from the unconscious, driving Ne-doms to surrender to Si in a negative or destructive manner. *They tend to lose touch with the world of possibilities and, instead, become pessimistic, withdrawn, inflexible, or obsessed about insignificant details*. They might: *suffer depression or despair, feel emotionally vulnerable and isolated and unappreciated*, become unable to verbalize their thoughts or feelings, *have difficulty finding pleasure in any activity, get highly irritable or pedantic or finicky, develop tunnel vision and hyperfocus on one task or detail, obsess about completing tasks and feel irrationally pressed for time*, develop compulsive behavior in counting or organizing things, feel overwhelmed with trying to make every little detail perfect or relevant, desperately overanalyze past events/mistakes to find reasons/solutions for their present mood or use past events to justify a negative outlook of the future. *Ultimately, they lose their motivation and enthusiasm for life, feeling lost or hopeless or adrift*.

https://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/post/136898571387/how-functions-work-inferior-si-entpenfp

So, yeah.

I'm still open to discussing possible heart fixes, if anyone thinks 3 sounds wrong. 

Gotta use Occam's Razor here. ENXP. My high emotional awareness suggests a feeler type.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

It's funny how Sp-last is the easiest blindspot to relate to, while at the same time I'm so Sp it's ridiculous. :frustrating:


----------



## JFrombaugh

https://www.personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/1291371-why-mbti-interests-you-more-3.html


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## knife

Remnants said:


> It's funny how Sp-last is the easiest blindspot to relate to, while at the same time I'm so Sp it's ridiculous. :frustrating:


Maybe you're Sp-last on a heavily Sp-oriented e-type (e.g. 5's)?


----------



## Wisteria

Remnants said:


> It's funny how Sp-last is the easiest blindspot to relate to, while at the same time I'm so Sp it's ridiculous. :frustrating:


Guessing you're talking about having forming unhealthy habits that are negligent of your health? (which everyone does to an extent). Pretty sure that's meant to be unhealthy SP fix.


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## d e c a d e n t

Wisteria said:


> Guessing you're talking about having forming unhealthy habits that are negligent of your health? (which everyone does to an extent). Pretty sure that's meant to be unhealthy SP fix.


Well, I don't remember exactly what I had in mind when I posted that, mainly that I was frustrated over not relating properly to anything/nothing feels right etc.


----------



## Retsu

I'm not really sure on my heart fix. I think I might have a 3 fix.


----------



## BroNerd

I think I’ve settled on an Enneagram for myself. 3w4-5w6-8w9 so/sx


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## WickerDeer

So I'd appreciate any feedback from anyone familiar with me on the site, about enneagram.

I am not sure if enneagram changes from when you are a child. Or if it should all tie in together. I'm going to go off about my childhood though, and see if anyone can relate, and whether or not you think it might have to do with enneagram.

When I was a child, I was not particularly anxious (I tend to test as a head type now in E tests). I was outgoing with my close friends, and could be protective and playful. We mostly played fantasy games. But I always valued my closest friend above anyone else. I don't think I was generally anxious, rather I said what was on my mind. 

In situations where I wasn't around a friend, I tended to be reserved and focus on something entertaining, like doing art or looking at bugs. I kind of 'made the best of my situation.' I remember being super into the click bugs in the section 8 housing we lived in, as a kid--I would play with them. I had a fascination with other bugs, but I felt a sense of revulsion at the roaches, because they would scatter after the light was on them.

Sometimes my reaction seemed to be from the physical environment. Or that is how I associated it. I remember once, being fascinated by seeing a dead baby bird. I used to like to find them--like at my uncle's, sometimes there would be eggs fallen from the nest, and I would go over and investigate--see the shells, and the embryo fallen. I never felt a sense of revulsion at this, it was more just interesting, to see what happened inside the eggs. But once I asked permission to look at a dead baby bird who was hatched, and my mother let me. So I went back over there, and it was covered in ants, and I vomited all over the sidewalk. 

I, now will stop to help any birds I find that are in trouble--I volunteered at the wildlife center for a while too, which rehabilitates birds. But I feel like I know a lot more now about how to react to a vulnerable animal. It is the same with bugs--it all seems like a learning process--and while there was nothing I could have done about the dead bird, I still felt motivated to learn more about how to help birds--it's like a combo of interest in sort of morbid things, but ultimately to put that interest to use by being able to react to situations I wouldn't have anticipated or be prepared for (like finding a bird that needs help).

That was also a process I went through with bugs--playing with them, trying to learn more about them, only to ultimately want to learn how to best help them or deal with situations when I would encounter a bug. So there is a conflict between sheer interest in the thing, and also deciding that I should try to act out my values with it in the best possible way, which takes knowledge (including negative experiences, mistakes, and also learning about the dangers and limitations).

I was mostly confused by adults--I didn't want to follow their conversations. I would usually prefer to hang out with animals, or to look at plants or draw things.

My grandmother seemed to think I was a 'good' child, which meant a lot to me. She would tell me about her childhood and read me religious stuff, and/or put me to work washing dishes or cleaning the oven, or creating dams and canals for water in her back yard. I really enjoyed spending time with her.

As I enjoyed visiting my aunt who would set me to work doing something creative, like she would send me to gather flowers and make a flower arrangement, and she would give me art supplies as a present, and talk to me about dreams and art. My grandma also talked to me about dreams. My best friend and I would also talk about dreams. 

I would get severely anxious, but it was mostly related to night time. I would almost hallucinate, as a child, because I didn't wear glasses at night, and so I would see movement, then I would have to make up some imaginary story about what it was to feel better, or else my mind would make up the worst story.

Like I might see the door open and close on its own (it wasn't--it was an optical illusion related to being nearsighted and it being very dark), or I might see a pile of clothes that reminded me of some creature I was afraid of (trolls or this one horned goat thing found by paleontologists, or aliens or spiders). I would sometimes keep myself up at night, for the whole night, out of fear of these imaginary things that I also, at the same time, knew they were imaginary, but 'what if?' I mostly froze, but didn't want to let myself fall asleep. 

I sometimes imagined they might be doing good things, and I did fantasize a lot as a child. I would close my mind when stressed, and I would imagine the cats and dogs I knew so well singing the songs on the car radio. I would look out the window and I would imagine a unicorn jumping from tree to tree...it was like a game, where you have to anticipate and jump...or it would be running alongside the car. I would imagine, at times, the scary spiders I thought might be crawling all over the room were, perhaps, helpful spiders, there to mine boogers from people's noses at night.

School was fun, but it was mostly because I could challenge myself to do better--like I would race my friend, and we would fall on the floor laughing (and I did lose that math test race). Or I would color or draw the best turkey, or the best tree...and win awards. I see this as maybe a 3 thing. I used to love accomplishing as a kid. And I also loved my teachers for giving me the room to accomplish things, as I constantly felt like a failure at home.

So most of what I've talked about is from before the third grade. Does anyone relate?

Some of what I describe, especially about imagining things, seems mental (like a head thing) but some of it also seems heart. I would say that the imagination came first though, and then the heart augmented that, to create a better outcome for me. 

Not sure how the developmental level would interact with enneagram type though.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

PerC is pretty useless, but I feel close to making a break-through, and it feels good to write things down somewhere.

So some pieces are finally falling into place, but there's a certain disconnect I'm trying to figure out. 
(Lol, I can't help but think of this song again... So this is one thing I've noticed, that I often feel compelled to post songs and such, and any situation where I can't do that, I feel handicapped.)





Basically one reason I have a hard time resonating with the idea of being Sx-last is how I'm so... obsessive in a way, and I feel like I'm always seeking a state of infatuation, without which I feel like I'm dying (best way I can think of putting it). On the other hand, I'm not really seductive, or I guess... good at hooking someone's attention. Instead I can get rather whiny and demanding when I'm desperate enough, which isn't exactly attractive. Clearly I have a certain helplessness when it comes to this sort of thing. (Compared to my SO, who has more power to both hook someone and to detach.)

Or in general, I can be rather whiny lol. Which I guess is kind of So-ish.

So trying to be objective, I can see how some aspects of my personality points towards Sx-last. Yet I can't ignore my internal experience in regards to this. It's more natural for me to focus on my internal experience in the first place, but I'm aware of what a bias type and instinct can create. So when there's a dissonance between how I come across and how I feel, it's worth considering why, especially when it comes to someone who seems more perceptive than the usual idiot. 

But yeah, idk. I know it will all fall into place eventually, but I've grown impatient. 

(@*Animal* probably has me blocked, but mentioning anyway as this feels relevant to things we've discussed before.)


----------



## Wisteria

^I don't think SX is about how attractive or seductive you are, it's simply having a more personal focus in relationships. When you're with a group of people, are you think about your relationship with each individual person there, or a few people who you are most strongly drawn to? I imagine SO types will be more aware of how they fit in with the group, establishing connections with people and determining their own place in the group. They will probably be more drawn to social issues as well, willingly advocating and trying to be democratic. SX types on the other hand are thinking about who the most intense and interesting person is, getting a sense who gives you the most energy when you interact with them. It's focused on that connection between you and one other person. 

SO types can probably be sexual in a sense that they like going out and meeting new people. SX are less interested in that and prefer to be with a group of close friends. 

That's how I see the instincts anyway, it seems very simple to me. I can tell when people are SX/SO as well. They are very gregarious people who willingly try to connect with everyone, but I can tell they have a few people who are more significant to them and they try to present themselves attractively (especially if they're an image type). They come off as having a poor sense of boundaries, but are very approachable and not as socially selective and reserved as SX/SP types.


----------



## Wisteria

Remnants said:


> Or in general, I can be rather whiny lol. Which I guess is kind of So-ish.


I have no idea how you reached that conclusion.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Wisteria said:


> I have no idea how you reached that conclusion.


It's not just my conclusion, and I believe the idea is that it's more likely to inspire pity than desire.


----------



## Figure

MeltedSorbet said:


> So I'd appreciate any feedback from anyone familiar with me on the site, about enneagram.
> 
> I am not sure if enneagram changes from when you are a child. Or if it should all tie in together. I'm going to go off about my childhood though, and see if anyone can relate, and whether or not you think it might have to do with enneagram.
> 
> When I was a child, I was not particularly anxious (I tend to test as a head type now in E tests). I was outgoing with my close friends, and could be protective and playful. We mostly played fantasy games. But I always valued my closest friend above anyone else. I don't think I was generally anxious, rather I said what was on my mind.


From what I have seen written re: Enneatype and childhood development, the main part of the ego structure to have not fully set in by about age 8-9 is the Superego. Gradually after that age that you'd start feeling more presence from the inner critic, with more and more concepts of ideal/not ideal, should/should not, good/bad, compliant/not compliant starting to fill in. Although Type 5 isn't a quote-on-quote "Superego" type like 1/2/6, I think 5's do in fact have a pretty harsh Superego - one of its roles being to remind them that they'll be overwhelmed if they're exposed or if they engage themselves fully, because they are after all so deficient. 

Most of the authors seem to agree that Enneatype is predisposed from birth, albeit not "baked in" the moment we're born. Kind of like how a butterfly is predisposed to grow wings, even though it doesn't immediately have them as a caterpillar inching out of the egg. The way I imagine it, we have an inset habit of paying attention to certain things over others in our experiences as toddlers that grows proportionally to the number of things we experience. The more we experience as a toddler, the more our dependence on seeing experiences in (what later becomes) our Type clamps down, and eventually we forget that other focuses even exist. Only to maybe learn, through the Enneagram or other spiritual exercises, decades later that there are 8 other ways to remove oneself from the immediacy of an experience.

As a child I used to be into insects like you too - made me laugh to read that : )


----------



## WickerDeer

Edit: A bit TMI.

I might come back and rewrite this later.


----------



## spicycucumber

Hey all!

I was wondering if you all could help me figure out if I am sx/so or sx/sp. I have read a ton of descriptions (THE Resource Thread for Instinctual Variants, Sx/So Myth vs Reality, Enneagram Universe articles...just to name a few that stood out).

Here is my issue: I don't inherently suck/ignore any of them.

Sx: chemistry, distance vs closeness, fusion (or what I would call feeling completely understood and on the same page..almost like merging), and like vs repulsion is what I live for whether with someone or something (climbing, school, etc). I'm intense and typically you either like me or you don't (and I feel the same way about others). The cons for Sx is that I feel insecure about it. I know I come across too intensely sometimes and it scares people away and makes me less popular/desirable, so I tone it down to keep my place within the group (like work and my social sphere, which are pretty intertwined).

Sp: I climb a lot and love the "high" I get from exercise, I eat well because I have allergies and hate the sick feeling and low energy I get from not eating well. (Eating well also keeps me strong for climbing which is a passion of mine and I enjoy being attractive and strong). I keep my place relatively clean..but really only care because I feel like people would judge me if they saw my place was gross. Usually socializing, climbing, and school work comes before cleaning, eating a well balanced meal, etc.

So: makes me feel insanely insecure if I don't do it well, as I am aware of how people respond to me and what image I may be conveying to others, but I am usually aware of it during or after the fact and not before. Reputation matters to me because it gives me access to intense and memorable experiences...plus access to potential lovers. I'm very loyal/committed to my friendships and do develop a connected/meaningful relationship with said friends (though I'm pretty picky). I also know my role within the community ("know my place" is what I say) and get annoyed when people overstep their place. Things I suck at with So is knowing whose values align with my own, specifically in regards to romantic relationships or potential "best friends." I usually throw caution to the wind in hopes of something magical. I usually figure it out after the fact (sooner with friendships and later with intimates). I also feel like I lack a "genre." I think I am aware of how people perceive me, but it does shift with the environment that I am in. As of late, my clothes are more practical, as that is the kind of cultural environment I currently live in (plus it gets cold here). I can say I cared less about connecting and fitting in when I socially isolated myself because it was easy to see myself as "other" and not wanting to be a part of the collective whole. Now that I live in a community that has similar values/ideologies, I very much want to fit in.

Lastly, I think I see myself as contra...? But not as intensely contra as some of the descriptions. I am a feminist who has strong views regarding wages, corporate welfare (oppose it strongly), healthcare reform, sustainable energy sources, big ag, and factory farming. I feel very connected to nature though and the "human experience,' which is a term used to describe syn-flow.

Any self-reflection questions, tips, and insight into what you all think I am would be greatly appreciated!

thanks in advance :]


----------



## BroNerd

spicycucumber said:


> Hey all!
> 
> I was wondering if you all could help me figure out if I am sx/so or sx/sp. I have read a ton of descriptions (THE Resource Thread for Instinctual Variants, Sx/So Myth vs Reality, Enneagram Universe articles...just to name a few that stood out).
> 
> Here is my issue: I don't inherently suck/ignore any of them.
> 
> Sx: chemistry, distance vs closeness, fusion (or what I would call feeling completely understood and on the same page..almost like merging), and like vs repulsion is what I live for whether with someone or something (climbing, school, etc). I'm intense and typically you either like me or you don't (and I feel the same way about others). The cons for Sx is that I feel insecure about it. I know I come across too intensely sometimes and it scares people away and makes me less popular/desirable, so I tone it down to keep my place within the group (like work and my social sphere, which are pretty intertwined).
> 
> Sp: I climb a lot and love the "high" I get from exercise, I eat well because I have allergies and hate the sick feeling and low energy I get from not eating well. (Eating well also keeps me strong for climbing which is a passion of mine and I enjoy being attractive and strong). I keep my place relatively clean..but really only care because I feel like people would judge me if they saw my place was gross. Usually socializing, climbing, and school work comes before cleaning, eating a well balanced meal, etc.
> 
> So: makes me feel insanely insecure if I don't do it well, as I am aware of how people respond to me and what image I may be conveying to others, but I am usually aware of it during or after the fact and not before. Reputation matters to me because it gives me access to intense and memorable experiences...plus access to potential lovers. I'm very loyal/committed to my friendships and do develop a connected/meaningful relationship with said friends (though I'm pretty picky). I also know my role within the community ("know my place" is what I say) and get annoyed when people overstep their place. Things I suck at with So is knowing whose values align with my own, specifically in regards to romantic relationships or potential "best friends." I usually throw caution to the wind in hopes of something magical. I usually figure it out after the fact (sooner with friendships and later with intimates). I also feel like I lack a "genre." I think I am aware of how people perceive me, but it does shift with the environment that I am in. As of late, my clothes are more practical, as that is the kind of cultural environment I currently live in (plus it gets cold here). I can say I cared less about connecting and fitting in when I socially isolated myself because it was easy to see myself as "other" and not wanting to be a part of the collective whole. Now that I live in a community that has similar values/ideologies, I very much want to fit in.
> 
> Lastly, I think I see myself as contra...? But not as intensely contra as some of the descriptions. I am a feminist who has strong views regarding wages, corporate welfare (oppose it strongly), healthcare reform, sustainable energy sources, big ag, and factory farming. I feel very connected to nature though and the "human experience,' which is a term used to describe syn-flow.
> 
> Any self-reflection questions, tips, and insight into what you all think I am would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> thanks in advance :]


You seem like a sp-last type to me. Either sx/so or so/sx. 
"I keep my place relatively clean..but really only care because I feel like people would judge me if they saw my place was gross." - I can relate to this well. For me, it is about keeping up appearances but I find it hard to care otherwise. I'm pretty shitty about sp-related concerns but I will focus on those if it means others will be impressed with me as a result. It's all for others - not for myself.

"[I'm very loyal/committed to my friendships and do develop a connected/meaningful relationship with said friends (though I'm pretty picky). I also know my role within the community ("know my place" is what I say) and get annoyed when people overstep their place." 
This sounds more social-first than sexual-first to me. so/sx types crave intensity and depth in relationships too but sx/so will value that more than being valued by society. I see a sx-first type as someone who wants others to be drawn to him/her. While a so-first type wants to be part of something larger than oneself. 

sx/so is possible though. I'd say so/sx or sx/so for you.


----------



## Lunacik

Violet Heart said:


> I would be glad to help for I am a enneagram nerd .


Awesome Thanks. I have no idea how to start though, lol. Q&A or should I just share stuff?


----------



## angelfish

Can anyone assist with differentiating between instinct stackings?

What I'm entirely positive of is that I'm neither so/sp nor sp/so. I originally typed myself as sx/so - because my main life angst has always seemed sx - even when I was little I was always trying to find the perfect toy that would make my life whole and happy; later I always had a best friend and obsessed about the quality of that relationship; as an adult my main life joy/stressor is the chemistry or lack thereof in my relationship with my spouse. A little while ago a forum friend explained to me how my much more diffuse energy and engagement with/focus on my nuclear family probably leaned me so-first, and that seemed to account for my lack of outward intensity. I'm very intense but keep most of it inside ... only the people close to me really get to see my full blown intensity (which tends to intimidate/scare away... I have a lot of energy...). And while I _thought_ my Social was pretty good, I've been working with an ISFP 2w1 coworker recently... and while I always thought I was just a little bit blind because Fi dom, my coworker is really, really socially insightful and immediately sees the social effects certain actions are going to have - and I'm sort of blind to that - so that has me re-assessing...

Anyway, this is my pet project at the moment - refining my thoughts on my stacking - so if anyone has any thoughts to add or questions for me to answer I would appreciate it! 

Here is my little thread I made with me doing questionnaires and so on for reference if desired.


----------



## Cosmic Chaos

Hexcoder said:


> Awesome Thanks. I have no idea how to start though, lol. Q&A or should I just share stuff?


Hmm to start with whats your reasoning behind the 2 and 4 and btw what rules out 3?. Also I think determining what triad you are is handy. Like if you are 2 fixed you will be double positive and double rejection outlook and if 4 you would be triple withdrawn.


----------



## Azranaes

@Dare @ukulele

Just a thought--surely an unwelcome one, like all my thoughts--but I've never had an unexpressed one before, haha








but my mind shifted the context of this--forgive me for saying it, but--completely inane and nonsensical shitstorm, into the scope of what I'd said earlier, along with a few key points that stood out as.... unique from type/function expectations. 

Behold! 
My commentary on INFJs:


> I actually don't relate to INFJs, and I typically get along with them at first, but the Fe and Ti generate schism very fast, and it only takes a single disagreement (which I usually see as completely nonsensical) to break down communication into door-slamming frustration. An INTP friend made a comment a while back that INFJs tend to either hit or miss, and when they hit it's brilliant, but when they miss it's painful to even look at, and they cannot be convinced their thought process is wrong. When I related this to an INTJ friend who is married to an INFJ he laughed and said, "That definitely fits her."





> To be fair, I'm as likely to be the one cutting short once I realize I'm talking to a wall who doesn't even want to understand me. But when it's just Ti being silly, I can usually just throw my hands up without any harsh words. When I'm being condemned by Fe for not fitting into their behavioral expectations, I tend to react. An example was an INFJ criticizing me for talking to somebody who had been rude to her, saying that I couldn't expect to be her friend when I was friendly to her enemy. My reaction was along the lines of, "WTF? I don't even know you, lady, and you think you can tell me who I'm allowed to talk to? Fuck off."


Compare the anecdote in the second quote to Dare's insistence that me talking to Neokortex equated to aligning against her, or that he was light hearted enough to find my mocking him funny somehow, ironically, equated to making fun of her. 
Compare her refusal to alter her perspective in the face of logical explanation to my gripe about the type in the first quote. 

Now think on the recurring trend you've defended of her "boundaries." 
Not logic, not objective truth, but moral boundaries. Notice also I stated my own moral boundaries concerning this...whatever you'd call it, but they were deemed unimportant because... Fi. Not objective.
I mean seriously, have you EVER met an INTJ who would find a crude joke about skeleton sex offensive? Fi users cannot express their F, because it's i. Even INFPs are edgy and quirky as fuck. (Check the ENTJ flirting thread) An INTJ getting bent out of shape because something is politically incorrect? 
heh. No. 
If anything, I've found that INTJs usually PREFER to express Fi in politically incorrect ways. (I've seriously joked with an INTJ on this forum about sawing off a bad foot to mail to me so I can give her a footrub. No 10 page argument ensued. I've joked with Vinniebob about replacing his bad leg with a chainsaw. No 10 page argument ensued. That's in the past week alone! I can't even name all the examples from my entire three and a half decades, as there are so many that stand in such dire counterpoint to what has happened simply by treating Dare as I treat every INTJ and finding a polar opposite [feelery] reaction) 

Just as INTJs will not put personal boundaries ABOVE logic. Actually, it's what I love about NTJs. They can hold an opinion dear, but will throw it under the bus themselves if you can prove to them your facts are stronger than their opinion. (and my logic is one thing I have absolute faith in, because INTJs smarter than all of us put together have attested that Stanford-Binet's assessment of me holds true years later--I doubt myself a lot, but I do not doubt the assessment of people smarter than me)

Now, you've both expressed agreement of disagreement with how things work on the INTJ forum, and how INTJs behave in general (I do agree some of them, I won't name, seem more like sensors, but PerC has a lot of obvious mistyping and typecasting overall). Both having a higher regard for feeling over hard nosed logic. If you shave Schrodinger's Cat with Occam's Razor, might you not wind up with the simple answer you might both be INFJs? Just as me and a fellow ENTJ friend wasted a lot of time hating other ENTJs before reaching the logical conclusion INTJ fit more boxes and less animosity. 
If this were the case, it would explain why the communication style differs so drastically from INTJs, leading to the kind of Fe/Ti heavy debate I have ONLY ever had with INFJs before, like I am the one out of line for thinking differently? 
(I'm not asserting this as strongly with Puffersushi, as it was defense and association with indicative behaviour, not as strongly asserted itself, but in the other, I do think reconsidering type would not be unreasonable) 

Again, just a thought, not an accusation or assertion or anything. I don't even know why people over associate with type, because if somebody could prove to me logically I was an ISFP, I'd accept it. It wouldn't change who I am, it would just change the explanation for the functionality of who I am.
It's just a hypothesis that came to mind based on the radically different thinking patterns I'd have never expected from INTJs. 
Have a good day.  Hopefully I stimulated some Ni instead of infuriated any Fe/Fi.


----------



## ukulele

@Azranaes have you ever thought YOU might be an INFJ? Or an INTP? because hell, you try hard and go over and over the same shit to build logical explanation that fits your vision. Stinks with Ti to me.

Fe also since you clearly had an expectation how Dare ought to behave.
It's also INTPs who will turn their emotions off to be analytical, a fast way to piss an INTJ off is to step on their Fi. I have not seen an INTJ who wasn't protective about their values&co (if you go to the subforum, you'll see that Fi thread(they don't express Fi but they have a thread dedicated to it, good thinking) is non-interactive, it wasn't always like that...why you think is that?)

There's 10 page (more like 2-3 pages but whatever) long argument because you got stuck. Everyone moved on and you keep digging and digging and digging? That's Te? It's inefficient as fuck(see? I'm getting irritable because it's too much already, ain't nobody got time for that).

Rylan you should try to get some sun, there's a little bit of hell in everyone


----------



## Azranaes

ukulele said:


> @Azranaes have you ever thought YOU might be an INFJ? Or an INTP? because hell, you try hard and go over and over the same shit to build logical explanation that fits your vision. Stinks with Ti to me.
> 
> Fe also since you clearly had an expectation how Dare ought to behave.
> It's also INTPs who will turn their emotions off to be analytical, a fast way to piss an INTJ off is to step on their Fi. I have not seen an INTJ who wasn't protective about their values&co (if you go to the subforum, you'll see that Fi thread(they don't express Fi but they have a thread dedicated to it, good thinking) is non-interactive, it wasn't always like that...why you think is that?)
> 
> There's 10 page (more like 2-3 pages but whatever) long argument because you got stuck. Everyone moved on and you keep digging and digging and digging? That's Te? It's inefficient as fuck(see? I'm getting irritable because it's too much already, ain't nobody got time for that).
> 
> Rylan you should try to get some sun, there's a little bit of hell in everyone


Is that a joke? 
My only expectation for how she "ought" to behave (respect for the Kant nod--inside joke insinuating INTPness) was that she acknowledge what I was saying instead of repeatedly projecting her hostile interpretation onto it. You're getting annoyed with me going on defending myself? Imagine if I was attacking instead, and saying you were being annoying for defending against my inane accusations of what you're really saying? 

But no, as I've said, those more versed than me insist NTJ, with convincing arguments. The fact I put faith in experts is at least evidence of strong Te, although leaving options open would seem to indicate leading Ni. (see this, I'm making pleasant nerdy conversation out of this--why can't we just do this? It's what I came to this fucking forum for after all. Why does everybody just want to misconstrue and fight me all the time?) 
In the end, my logic is always objectively based, morals internally based. I'm open to questioning the rest, but Te and Fi are undoubtable (again, by other sources as well, not just self-report, which is never reliable).
Funny you'd ask that though, as I've already expressed I get on horribly with INFJs because we think so differently. Ditto with ESFJs. Ugh! 

And don't presume I am healthy. I've had a horrifying life, and the time I waste seeking camaraderie among people who prefer to misconstrue and attack me online demonstrates virtually demonstrates my current straits. 

As to your arguments, I did not keep digging and digging--I kept correcting and correcting. I suspect this is more a 1 thing than an MBTI thing. I don't mind being condemned (obviously!), but it has to be for the RIGHT REASONS! 
Hate me for the philosophies I hold, by all means. Hate me for my opinions or my sense of humor.
But I cannot, I just CANNOT stand to be judged for thoughts and opinions I do NOT hold. And being told I think or meant something I did not... I mean, I've dealt with this a lot in life, dating back to Columbine. People accusing me of saying shit I didn't, and it seriously impacted my life. So maybe it's more personal than any typographical spectrum can explain, but it drives me crazy for somebody to keep going on that what was meant as a friendly joke that should have sparked camaraderie was some malicious act. You'd think my own admissions would have backed this up by now--as a 1, when I am being malicious, I do not rescind it, and I do not leave ambiguity. 
If I'm not putting you to the torch, then you are misunderstanding me. 
Yet nobody seems to get why it would be exasperating to get "stuck" in repeating this defense when I am just so fucking sick of being misunderstood to such an insane degree.

And I'll repeat again--the guy who was mouthing off to me, I told off right away and received an infraction for it. Still, I try to reason with certain people who just want to ignore my intentions and pass judgement. 
Pathetic, isn't it? The faith I'll put into some people.

EDIT: Wait a minute, WHAT?! The fact I understand and get along better with INTJs means that I must be an INFJ because two INTJs who don't identify with INTJs don't understand me? 
HUUUUUUUUUUUUHHH? 
I seriously let myself get vulnerable there for a moment before the logic sunk in. haha.


----------



## Dare

> I mean seriously, have you EVER met an INTJ who would find a crude joke about skeleton sex offensive?


Still twisting the facts to suit your original locked down perception of me eh? Life without Te reality checks must be difficult (those ILI-Ni can be like INFJs the way they have narrowed Ni perception). Since you're a little slow to catch on here, let me point reality out one last time for you:

The idea that I was flirting with someone by giving them that image is:
1. Delusional & self flattering
2. Cheapening/deflecting what I was talking about
3. Massively (no doubt irrationally) threatening to me as a sx dom with a relationship to protect
4. Annoying bc of how my bf may feel if/when he reads that trash (especially if I didn't shut it down)
5. Offensive bc it's suggesting that I am unfaithful

I wanted those 5 things cut off. Jokes were not the problem, the association to the idea that I was flirting by using that image is the problem. Your joke directly linked to that idea ('that image is a great way to say I want to jump your bones'). All I asked of you was to stop it, 'enough!'. But you had to keep going and going and going. And here you are escalating it again, still seeming clueless about what I was even offended by to begin with. 

Do you have any idea how easy it would have been for me to make a 'I think you misunderstood the term boner' joke and thrown in a meme? 








I didn't bc I was deliberately staying sx and not doing social currency, not just to shut that nasty/crazy/manipulative stuff down but also to make the point about depth differences (staying on topic) -- an idea/post a number of people thanked me for. If you still can't get it, if you still think I'm some reactive SJW or that dark humor offends me, I really can't help you to see (classic INFJ locked down perception). I've only tried this hard out of respect for the mutual friend we once had. I have to believe he saw something positive in you. 

If you want to keep up the insults though, let's leave Ukulele out of it. As you said, she was just defending me. This has nothing to do with her.


----------



## Azranaes

Dare said:


> Still twisting the facts to suit your original locked down perception of me eh? Life without Te reality checks must be difficult (those ILI-Ni can be like INFJs the way they have narrowed Ni perception). Since you're a little slow to catch on here, let me point reality out one last time for you:
> 
> The idea that I was flirting with someone by giving them that image is:
> 1. Delusional & self flattering
> 2. Cheapening/deflecting what I was talking about
> 3. Massively (no doubt irrationally) threatening to me as a sx dom with a relationship to protect
> 4. Annoying bc of how my bf may feel if/when he reads that trash (especially if I didn't shut it down)
> 5. Offensive bc it's suggesting that I am unfaithful
> 
> I wanted those 5 things cut off. Jokes were not the problem, the association to the idea that I was flirting by using that image is the problem. Your joke directly linked to that idea ('that image is a great way to say I want to jump your bones'). All I asked of you was to stop it, 'enough!'. But you had to keep going and going and going. And here you are escalating it again, still seeming clueless about what I was even offended by to begin with.
> 
> Do you have any idea how easy it would have been for me to make a 'I think you misunderstood the term boner' joke and thrown in a meme?
> View attachment 819929
> 
> 
> I didn't bc I was deliberately staying sx and not doing social currency, not just to shut that nasty/crazy/manipulative stuff down but also to make the point about depth differences (staying on topic) -- an idea/post a number of people thanked me for. If you still can't get it, if you still think I'm some reactive SJW or that dark humor offends me, I really can't help you to see (classic INFJ locked down perception). I've only tried this hard out of respect for the mutual friend we once had. I have to believe he saw something positive in you.
> 
> If you want to keep up the insults though, let's leave Ukulele out of it. As you said, she was just defending me. This has nothing to do with her.


You do realize I'm not Neokortex, right? 
You weren't upset about my joke, but about the impression the joke may have given to somebody else I don't know, based on something somebody else might have said? 

Make a whole spreadsheet of why it makes sense to you. It'll still be crazy in the scope of the fact I made a silly pun satirizing that anybody could find a skeleton picture flirtatious, and you projected an entire universe of meaning onto it you refuse to let go of. 
You.
Are.
Insane. 

And if your boyfriend is so jealous you become so neurotic at the very thought that posting a skeleton picture on the internet equates to flirting, one of you has some serious cluster B issues going on. 
Please stop replying to me. 
You are seriously sapping the life out of me with your skewed perception of things and your crazy projections of my intentions. 
Trauma bonding. hah. 
I had A BPD mother and narcissist father. Been engaged to a BPD, and the love of my life was a BPD, and now while I'm bleeding and sick and layed up for days on meds, I find myself desperately trying to defend myself in the hopes of appeasing the insane judgements of a BPD who refuses to stop judging me based on a mother fucking skeleton pun in the hopes of finding peace with somebody incapable of the concept.


Just... fucking go. 
Stawker had you all wrong; it was the insecurities, not the intellect.


----------



## ukulele

Azranaes said:


> EDIT: Wait a minute, WHAT?! The fact I understand and get along better with INTJs means that I must be an INFJ because two INTJs who don't identify with INTJs don't understand me?
> HUUUUUUUUUUUUHHH?
> I seriously let myself get vulnerable there for a moment before the logic sunk in. haha.


Like what?! 

Kid, get some sleep or something. I think you're getting lost in your own shit.

FWIW, none of your projections (or interpretations of what I meant) in the post above, directed at me were right. You say


> I'm making pleasant nerdy conversation out of this--why can't we just do this?


 but you seem to be talking with your emotions right now... hence you're getting lost, imho.


----------



## Azranaes

ukulele said:


> Like what?!
> 
> Kid, get some sleep or something. I think you're getting lost in your own shit.
> 
> FWIW, none of your projections (or interpretations of what I meant) in the post above, directed at me were right. You say but you seem to be talking with your emotions right now... hence you're getting lost, imho.



First of all, I'm older than you so don't call me kid, kid. 
Secondly, the post you claim to be talking with emotions was this:




> But no, as I've said, those more versed than me insist NTJ, with convincing arguments. The fact I put faith in experts is at least evidence of strong Te, although leaving options open would seem to indicate leading Ni.


Care to explain in what ways discussing MBTI is talking with emotions? Sounds to me like an evasion. Whenever I ask for a logical discussion, I get some condescending cutdown instead. You called me an INFJ. Okay. I'm open to it. If you give logical rationale for the hypothesis. I am seriously up to discussing ANYTHING, if you can do so logically, rather than just trying to cut me down in some way. 
C'mon. Have at it. Prove you're not just here to troll.


----------



## ukulele

Azranaes said:


> First of all, I'm older than you so don't call me kid, kid.
> Secondly, * the post** you claim to be talking with emotions was this:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain in what ways discussing MBTI is talking with emotions? Sounds to me like an evasion. Whenever I ask for a logical discussion, I get some condescending cutdown instead. You called me an INFJ. Okay. I'm open to it. If you give logical rationale for the hypothesis. I am seriously up to discussing ANYTHING, if you can do so logically, rather than just trying to cut me down in some way.
> C'mon. Have at it. Prove you're not just here to troll.


a) I did not claim that any* specific* post was talking emotions, I said that because you're starting to make some personal remarks as if you were throwing a tantrum over WHAT?! Additionally, you seem behaving odd compering to the previous days... To me, you are triggered. And I've learnt it's not the best state to discuss anything hence I told you to go and sleep= calm down, remove yourself from the situation, get a perspective
b) It was you who called me/us INFJ first (and it seems that logic: I don't get along with them = they must be mistyped is yours), I do not know what type you are, nor I care. I did, perhaps you didn't understand- my fault, what I did in the other thread, I told you to look at yourself. I mean, why is it us and not you? You don't ever doubt yourself?
c) despite all of that I have no idea where you took 80% of the things you wrote in that post directed at me from. Moreover, no one (at least not me) hated or judged you for your thoughts or opinions. Perhaps we are here due to your believe you were. FWIW, I thought you were rather a friendly and smart guy. I simply do not understand why you got stuck at something so silly and why you won't listen/doubt.
d) she did not appreciate your joke for whatever reasons she had, she wasn't beating her chest for it because it's not who she is, you might not like it but there is nothing more to it. Get over it.
e) now I go and not coming back because as I mentioned I'm getting irritated, not annoyed with you, irritated at myself that I spent my day on this idiotic thing and not something productive. I shouldn't have had time for this.


----------



## Dare

Azranaes said:


> I had A BPD mother and narcissist father.


Yeah, I was go to call you out on having Mommy issues (very obvious to me for a couple of reasons) when you decided to take it to the level of unsolicited typing but I decided to try in earnest one last time with you instead. My mistake.



> Been engaged to a BPD, and the love of my life was a BPD


Yep, you have massive confirmation bias. 



> Stawker had you all wrong.


You know better than the guy with the 160 IQ who actually knew me, eh? The one who had _effortless_ communication with me and shared almost all views. Whatever you need to believe...

I'm happy you're done using me as a punching bag and we can all move on now. 

I'm sorry you've had a hard time in life and are unwell. Good luck to you.


----------



## Lunacik

Cosmic Chaos said:


> Hmm to start with whats your reasoning behind the 2 and 4 and btw what rules out 3?. Also I think determining what triad you are is handy. Like if you are 2 fixed you will be double positive and double rejection outlook and if 4 you would be triple withdrawn.


Ok, I'll get back to this when I have more time than rn. Thanks.


----------



## LizaChumbalaya

This thread idea is interesting and amusing.


----------



## Lunacik

Cosmic Chaos said:


> Hmm to start with whats your reasoning behind the 2 and 4 and btw what rules out 3?. Also I think determining what triad you are is handy. Like if you are 2 fixed you will be double positive and double rejection outlook and if 4 you would be triple withdrawn.


Ok, sure. Btw, I like the new name. I'm sure I have more reasons than this, but this will be a good start. Just ask me if you have any questions.
@*mistakenforstranger* I'm mentioning you since you also messaged me asking me about this.


*TWO -*
*I don't relate to...*

* *





» Needing to be needed
I don't like it when anyone is dependent on me. I also don't like depending on other people. If there is to be partnership (be it a job, relationship, roommate, etc.) I am most comfortable with either equality or having the upper hand (but I don't abuse it, I just take the position to prevent them from abusing it).

» Attending to needs for affirmation or to feel good about myself
I do it for the other person's benefit, not to feel good. I grew up with a mom who used her "generosity" to manipulate and guilt trip while it simultaneously strokes her own ego and makes her feel like a valuable person. I told myself I refuse to be like her.





*I do relate to...*

* *





» Caring more about those who are closest to me more than myself.
I sometimes don't know how to care for myself unless in a roundabout way through close ones (I care about them, thus care about me).

» The typical E2 mistype reason: warm, caring, generous.
However, I'm uncomfortable expressing that unless I really grow more accustomed with a person. During times when I displayed that side publicly I had a lot of anxieties over it. If people are close to me they start to see a side that is unexpectedly warm and self-sacrificial. When I was unable to tell someone no and let them suffer, I gave beyond my means in a rather large way. After I suffered the price for it and they didn't even remember the sacrifice I made, I was never quite as selfless in my giving again, but still struggle to do things for myself the way I can be motivated to do them for others. There are more examples, but that was the biggest one. I have a track record of overgiving without expecting repayment.

» Friends sometimes get annoyed when I act like I don't matter, but I don't see how I do that. (That may be E9 though...minimizing self and own needs.)

» Wanting to be liked
I do tend to try winning people over and drawing them in, but I learned this a few years ago as a method for bringing things into the peaceful realm and avoiding having enemies.




[HR][/HR]
*THREE -*
*I don't relate to...*

* *





» Needing affirmation from others

» Developing my own ideas about what makes a valuable person and then becoming that.
I value people equally based upon the premise of being human. I'm a huge advocate for diversity and acceptance of differences, seeing each of us with our own human lives. We're all going to die in the end and my shit stinks just as much as anybody else's, I'm not fooling anybody with polish. No one is fooling me into thinking they're more valuable for their accomplishments, either. I'm not impressed nor convinced.

» Shame.
I may experience some insecurity over my own imperfections, or shame about poor decisions I have made...but that's not the same as 3s who go as far as self-reassuring, seeking accolades, and maintaining an image of success.




*I do relate to...*

* *





» USED TO think my value lied within my accomplishments and felt inferior, but
1) That is what society ingrains where I live(d), 2) some events led to that changing later on.

» Sometimes I have a workaholic streak in me.
I've been known to set myself aside and neglect my needs or emotions for the sake of success--hungry for wealth and prosperity, competition, efforts to rise to the top of the success ladder. It's not consistent, so maybe integration. It aligns with it anyways because I was more assertive and had an attitude of, "my space is mine and I'll claim it." (I said that before discovering that was a gut triad thing, it was weird to stumble across WoE talking about it.)



[HR][/HR]
*FOUR - *
*I don't relate to...*

* *





» Identity issues
I'm the opposite. I lack a strong sense of self and I stress as a result of trying to form one.
I have little attachment to a sense of identity. I forsake myself and adjust to those I'm around. It's not a conscious process, and when someone points out that I'm mirroring, or when I suddenly consciously become aware myself, I can become a little uncomfortable. I don't really like that I mirror people, yet at the same time IDK how to stop. Little by little, my views or stances fall by the wayside due to the avoidance of potential friction. I take on their traits, mannerisms...I'm somewhat of a chameleon (one of the types that actually do blend with their environment). It is in this process that I become molded into their tastes and preferences. I once lived far from family in search of who I actually am without taking on others' traits or preferences, but I either retained the traits of those I was connected with or adopted traits of new acquaintances. I never really was able to locate my sense of self.

» Victim / rescuee role
I'm the opposite: fearing the vulnerability of being manipulated via rescue scenarios, I retain control and independence. At times I have difficulty admitting I was a victim when I genuinely was, because to admit it is to concede to being helpless. Rather, I retrace where and why things went wrong and think of ways I could prevent any recurrences. A lesson gained is better than helplessness.

» Needing to see myself as special / unique somehow
I'm the opposite: I blend, prefer having a low presence; "I am nothing, no one, just a ghost, a passerby, a grain of sand in the sea, invisible, insignificant..." and I prefer it this way.

» Issues with envy
Idk, just naturally never really had this problem somehow...grass isn't greener on the other side.

» Seeking Emotional Intensity / Amplification
I'm the opposite: Avoidance, intolerance for intense emotions (my own, but also others' because they threaten to spread to me), inertia; have been known to have difficulties with playing ostrich to avoid emotional experiences (no longer even consciously aware of a problem I'm avoiding until I actually crack apart and remember).

» Seeing self as a prisoner of my past and believing there is no hope
I reiterate...I passionately hate the victim mindset. I would be too stubborn to allow someone or something to damage me for the rest of my life.




*I do relate to...*

* *





» Artistic

» Intuitive

» Symbolic aesthetic self-expression

» Proficient with making unique / original ideas.
I am very much an idea generator...in overabundance.

» Authenticity, honesty about faults

» Perpetual feelings of social isolation in the past, especially in group or community settings.




[HR][/HR]
*TRIADS - *

* *





» 953 / 935 ... No, I'm at least 1 reactive fix.

» 963 / 936 ... Out of all of my friends and I, no one saw me as triple attachment. More importantly, I don't relate to 6 as a constant thing, only when I start cracking at the seams E9 style.

» 964 ... Double reactive Sx Dom with an 8 wing is bordering on triple reactive Sx...
There's no way. I do at least have diagnosed emotional dysregulation and clinical depression, but I'm not reactive at all except under severe stress. If I tried to tell my roommates I'm reactive they would look at me like I lost my mind.

» 954 ... Triple withdrawn is possible.

» 952 ... IDK about double positive, but after scraping through Enneagram resources, E2 seems to be more present in me than E4 so far.



[HR][/HR]
*SIX FIX - *
I'll throw this in there because if I don't it's going to come up anyways, since it's included in the tritype reasoning...

* *





I don't doubt my own mind or seek guidance unless under extreme stress. E9/E6 both go along with things, but they're different on a fundamental level: in E6 it's rooted in fear or lack of stability, while in E9 it's rooted in cooperation or a lack of strong preferences. I do lean on decisive people, but it's almost for the opposite reasons: E6 cares with much neuroticism involved, I just literally don't give a shit or have no strong preference. So, basically...I just don't see many of the core 6 traits in myself. The way I go along with things is strongly E9 instead.




7 fix is impossible. I relate to that and 1 the least.


----------



## Zosio

*What's with this thread and its affiliations with drama? 






Temp close while I sort through my multitude of feelings.*


----------



## Maybe

Forgot to reopen so reopened  plz follow rulez plz


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

What's the best way to distinguish patterns of instinct use or preference


----------



## 74893H

I'm gonna out myself here since I've been talking as though I'm a 9 here for so long, after reading some more obscure and specific information about it I think I've come to realise that I'm actually a 1w9 not a 9w1. 

I've learned this year that I have inattentive ADHD which causes a lot of traits similar to aspects of self-pres 9, and I've become a bit better with certain kinds of confrontation as I've gotten older and more confident. I am still very very conflict-averse but I don't think that automatically makes you a 9, and I can charge into (online*cough*) confrontations if I'm in the right mood in the right place, exclusively for reasons that seem 1-ish. And there are all kinds of other things I don't relate to about 9, like not being aware of your anger, and all kinds of mental things. So I think thinking I was a 9 was just ADHD lethargy and comfort impulses mixed with anxiety.

A lot of 1's descriptions don't quite fit like a shoe in a lot of ways but I choc that down to being a Fi-dom, and the afforementioned attention fatigue-fuelled laziness, etc. But so many aspects of it seem to make sense for me, more than any other type does. I always second-guessed that I might be an ennea-4, but then after reading up on it again I'd always realise that makes no sense, but Fi 1w9 sp seems to be 4 without the stuff I didn't relate to, for the exact reasons I didn't relate to them. The 9 traits I thought had caused problems in my life can be explained away with ADHD, and I can pin down all kinds of weirdness and problems that being a 1 will have caused in my life, especially at work. Getting fired from jobs because I wouldn't work by the workplace's rules that didn't sit right with me morally and defeated their own purposes and made life harder for everyone involved. And my habits on forums like here, too. Like editing my posts for hours after posting them because I keep proofreading them over and over after posting them and finding pedantic corrections and improvements I need to make that drive me crazy if I leave them. As well as overexplaining EVERYTHING in my posts to make sure my explanations are as complete as possible and I'm not leaving out anything important, making them VERY VERY LONG. And then stressing out afterwards over how LONG they are. 
And plenty of other more glaring and more 1-typical things of course, those are just the funny ones to mention.

But the stress and growth arrows for 1 make MUCH more sense for me than 9's did too, 9's made me throw out the concept of them altogether.

I'm still working out if I think I am for sure, but if I am a 1 then sorry to any 9's I misled by giving my experiences as one. But I'd say my 9 wing is extremely heavy, probably enough so that a decent number of things I said were still relevant.

TL;DR: I think I might be a 1 sorry guys
I promise I won't yell at you for being wrong about things
Unless you're a DICK


----------



## Paradigm

Pizzafari said:


> And my habits on forums like here, too. Like editing my posts for hours after posting them because I keep proofreading them over and over after posting them and finding pedantic corrections and improvements I need to make that drive me crazy if I leave them. As well as overexplaining EVERYTHING in my posts to make sure my explanations are as complete as possible and I'm not leaving out anything important, making them VERY VERY LONG. And then stressing out afterwards over how LONG they are.
> And plenty of other more glaring and more 1-typical things of course, those are just the funny ones to mention.


Hm, looking at your tritype and overall post... This part is hilariously 6w7ish considering you apparently/probably typed as a "945"... I don't really even mean for your core, either, just your head fix is probably wrong, too, it's probably not 5w4.

I suppose you could argue "but type 7 and w7 sounds like ADHD by default," which is true, except not everyone with ADHD feels the need to write out _every single thought_ or _run through all scenarios or else_ or such. Anxiety disorders don't even make you do that, you could bottle it all up instead, and yet...

Good post, though. Genuinely.


----------



## Animal

Hexcoder said:


> This thread is still going?


I was thinking the same thing. I checked in here after a long hiatus and I see this thread, 1192 pages!? Impressive.


----------



## 74893H

Hælendleof Loc said:


> I'm gonna out myself here since I've been talking as though I'm a 9 here for so long, after reading some more obscure and specific information about it I think I've come to realise that I'm actually a 1w9 blah blah blah blah


Scratch this, I'm a 4. Always had a feeling I was but then I'd read something, deliberately misinterpret it to reassure myself that I wasn't wrong about my type and then discard it. But then after stewing on 1 for a while I realised it didn't entirely fit, looked into 4 more open-mindedly and yep. Thas me. Uh oh.


----------



## TranceHuman

I don't think I'm mistyped now but when I first typed myself I thought I was a 5, and INFP 5. I have strong logical and emotional sides and thought I was unique in my dichotomy. Not like those 4's I thought were faking being unique  Alas, I'm a 4 thinking I'm unique, like all the other 4's! Though in fairness I think my tritype has both 4w5 and 5w4 in it, and I was particularly intellectual locked when I did it so that can account or the mistake. I just think its funny that I thought I was too unique to be a 4!!!


----------



## Pinkieshyrose

Alot of people said I was a 794or 792

but im not sure if that fits at all


----------



## Hespera

When I was a teenager I tested as a 4 and thought it sounded very romantic and very cool, even if I didn't feel that way myself. 

Then, in my twenties I looked at Enneagram again and read some Type 6 descriptions that really shook me and made me look at parts of myself that I had never considered before. I must have just wanted to be special in typing myself as a 4.

Later, I cycled to Type 1. Could this actually be me? Sounds familiar, but not exact. Maybe I'm just a weird 1.

And now here I am, 15 years after originally learning about the system, admitting that I am indeed a 4 (with 6 and 1 in my tritype and a very strongly influential sp streak). I'm going through a really rough, emotional time in my life and reading my journal entries about my deepest fears and desires...they are all so stereotypically 4 that it hurts. To be precious, special, held, seen for who I really am. I have so much envy in me, so much pettiness. I want so badly to connect with people, yet feel so alien. I learned from my parents to survive by being helpful and smart, so my sensitivity and my need for validation makes me feel ashamed. Ironically I didn't want to be a 4 because it seemed so cliche, yet so heart-breakingly true. 

I still have a lot to learn about myself.


----------



## 74893H

Gesælige Cristesmæsse said:


> Scratch this, I'm a 4. Always had a feeling I was but then I'd read something, deliberately misinterpret it to reassure myself that I wasn't wrong about my type and then discard it. But then after stewing on 1 for a while I realised it didn't entirely fit, looked into 4 more open-mindedly and yep. Thas me. Uh oh.


It's getting embarassing at this point and I feel like I'm spamming up this thread too much but I'd feel awkward with leaving this here unchallenged, I'm going back to thinking I'm a 9w1 again. No type seems to fit me as well as I feel like it should but by process of elimination 9 seems to fit me the least poorly at this point, but it's not exactly a glove. Losing a lot of faith in the enneagram to be honest.


----------



## Birdy Bea

Gesælige Cristesmæsse said:


> It's getting embarassing at this point and I feel like I'm spamming up this thread too much but I'd feel awkward with leaving this here unchallenged, I'm going back to thinking I'm a 9w1 again. No type seems to fit me as well as I feel like it should but by process of elimination 9 seems to fit me the least poorly at this point, but it's not exactly a glove. Losing a lot of faith in the enneagram to be honest.


Isn't it pretty normal for a 9 to type all over the place? Feeler 9s in the 2/4 direction and Thinker 9s in the 5/7 direction? As peacemakers there's also a tendency to take on the characteristics of those currently around, which can lead to the thought/feeling that every different group brings out a facet but none know the whole self.


----------



## 74893H

Birdy Bea said:


> Isn't it pretty normal for a 9 to type all over the place? Feeler 9s in the 2/4 direction and Thinker 9s in the 5/7 direction? As peacemakers there's also a tendency to take on the characteristics of those currently around, which can lead to the thought/feeling that every different group brings out a facet but none know the whole self.


I guess, but the things that make me think I'm a different type are a bit too prominent for me to be comfortable with. It's less to do with reflecting other people and more to do with how I generally am.


----------



## Birdy Bea

Gesælige Cristesmæsse said:


> I guess, but the things that make me think I'm a different type are a bit too prominent for me to be comfortable with. It's less to do with reflecting other people and more to do with how I generally am.


That makes sense... 

I actually test as type 7 stronger than 9, and 5 almost dead even with 9. The very fact that it's multiple types so strongly led me in the 9 direction... Even though I'm not exactly the (external) "peacemaker" type, probably due to the 8 wing in the mix.


----------



## Merkurin

Lately, I find myself concidering the possibility of being a 4 (in particular the 4 SP subtype) over 9, which I used to identify with for 3 or 4 years now. I know their differences very well, but recently I find myself being torn between those two again.
I know, in my earlier posts I often discussed typically very 9ish issues and struggles I`m dealing with or have dealt with in the past, but I notice more and more how much I can can actually relate to the envy related to 4 and how much I focus on and identify with my personal feelings, suffering, pain and inner drama/ melodrama. Also always feeling like an outsider and like I`m different from others- being proud of feeling different and not fitting in with "normal" People, while at the same time resenting those normal people and envying their happiness, social inclusion etc. are things I can totally see in myself. 
Beyond that, I can really relate to the SP 4 being more stoic in the face of their pain, sufferring more on the inside, and not talking much about their suffering or their feelings in general. They have the same depth and wide range of emotions and struggles that the other 4s have, they just don`t show it as much outwardly. But their focus still lies on all of these issues. Whenever I read things like this, my assurance in being a 9 becomes shaky and 4 seems to make a lot of sense.


So please can someone help me out here ?! Any suggestions about my type are welcome.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

I'm pretty sure I'm a 6w5 9w8 4w3, but what do I seem like to others? What do I seem like judging from my profile and what not? I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## BroNerd

Ock said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm a 6w5 9w8 4w3, but what do I seem like to others? What do I seem like judging from my profile and what not? I'm genuinely curious.


I think that the 694 tritype seems very likely for you based on your posts. Can't say for certain on the wings - but the fact that I would think 5w6 is more likely than 6w7 has me saying that 6w5 is at least correct with regards to that.


----------



## BroNerd

I know this thread hasn't been active lately. But I've been wondering if I'm actually a 7w6 and not a 3w4.
I am very ambitious and place a lot of pride in achieving extraordinary things and winning at life. I like success and feeling that I am valuable to the world.
However, at the same time, I think the really valuable thing in life is exploring and experiencing the world. I hate the idea of missing out on anything. I know (despite being sp-blind) that having a higher net worth allows you to do more things and restricts you less with regards to activities - with the cost of being tied down by more responsibilities of course but the highs can be so much more exciting.

I wish I could take a break and travel the world- but I know that I need money and my professional career to do the things I really want to do with my life.
Moving to a completely different country for a year or two is appealing to me even if it does nothing for my professional goals (or even sets them back).

On an energy level, I also think I'm a lot more hyper/spontaneous than a lot of 3s. 
I also quickly escape from bad situations unless I can convince myself that the long-term benefits are incredible and probable. If something sucks, I don't live with it. I have a low tolerance for boredom and try to fix such a situation - and when I can't, I find that I lose attention/focus very easily and become more scattered. Or I'll daydream of a better world and say fuck it to reality.
I have set goals for myself and have embraced a more stable life but I used to be more of a party animal who would take risks for the next high or the next crazy idea. When given the chance or the opportunity, I easily fall back into that persona.

So maybe a 3-fixed 7?


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

BroNerd said:


> I know this thread hasn't been active lately. But I've been wondering if I'm actually a 7w6 and not a 3w4.
> I am very ambitious and place a lot of pride in achieving extraordinary things and winning at life. I like success and feeling that I am valuable to the world.
> However, at the same time, I think the really valuable thing in life is exploring and experiencing the world. I hate the idea of missing out on anything. I know (despite being sp-blind) that having a higher net worth allows you to do more things and restricts you less with regards to activities - with the cost of being tied down by more responsibilities of course but the highs can be so much more exciting.
> 
> I wish I could take a break and travel the world- but I know that I need money and my professional career to do the things I really want to do with my life.
> Moving to a completely different country for a year or two is appealing to me even if it does nothing for my professional goals (or even sets them back).
> 
> On an energy level, I also think I'm a lot more hyper/spontaneous than a lot of 3s.
> I also quickly escape from bad situations unless I can convince myself that the long-term benefits are incredible and probable. If something sucks, I don't live with it. I have a low tolerance for boredom and try to fix such a situation - and when I can't, I find that I lose attention/focus very easily and become more scattered. Or I'll daydream of a better world and say fuck it to reality.
> I have set goals for myself and have embraced a more stable life but I used to be more of a party animal who would take risks for the next high or the next crazy idea. When given the chance or the opportunity, I easily fall back into that persona.
> 
> So maybe a 3-fixed 7?


Well at least from what you just said it kinda sounds that way. But I'd always probably be a little slow to type someone just from reading text.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

BroNerd said:


> I think that the 694 tritype seems very likely for you based on your posts. Can't say for certain on the wings - but the fact that I would think 5w6 is more likely than 6w7 has me saying that 6w5 is at least correct with regards to that.


I've almost wondered before if I'm a 5w6, but I'm not because my disintegration clearly goes to 3. I think that's partially why I find 3 to be an unappealing type. I remember times when I've been more fake and played a role, and I really value my own authenticity.


----------



## BroNerd

Ock said:


> I've almost wondered before if I'm a 5w6, but I'm not because my disintegration clearly goes to 3. I think that's partially why I find 3 to be an unappealing type. I remember times when I've been more fake and played a role, and I really value my own authenticity.


Yes - when 6s become insecure, they often find themselves thinking that success is the only way to security.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

BroNerd said:


> Yes - when 6s become insecure, they often find themselves thinking that success is the only way to security.


Well for me it was like I was nervous and insecure about my image and didn't completely know who I was, so I'd go to 3 and play a role of how I'm "supposed to be", like being "caring", being "cool", etc. Sometimes it even manifested itself as being "weird" because a number of people thought I seemed really "cool" when I acted like a freak or whatever.


----------



## counterintuitive

@BroNerd I remember you from years ago, lol. Anyway, I think most of what you wrote here that seems 7ish can also be explained by being an EP type and Ne dominant. Quickly escaping from bad situations, changing things that suck, low tolerance for boredom, quickly losing attention/focus when you are bored, etc. all fit into that. Not saying you're _not_ a 7, though, only that what you described here is still compatible with a core 3 typing given your MBTI typing.


----------



## BroNerd

counterintuitive said:


> @BroNerd I remember you from years ago, lol. Anyway, I think most of what you wrote here that seems 7ish can also be explained by being an EP type and Ne dominant. Quickly escaping from bad situations, changing things that suck, low tolerance for boredom, quickly losing attention/focus when you are bored, etc. all fit into that. Not saying you're _not_ a 7, though, only that what you described here is still compatible with a core 3 typing given your MBTI typing.


That is true - a lot of the traits I described are also very ENTP-ish! 
A type 3 ENTP makes the most sense for me when I consider MBTI/Enneagram together.


----------



## Wisteria

"6w7s identify with one gender or the other, unlike gender neutral 7s"
_frantically clicks away from the website_


----------



## gooooofffff

Same than enneagram because you can find 27 of them in some books. 

I know that because i get into big school and industry for Europe lol. 

With my bad english. The system is fucked and MBTI is her to make you believe you special. 

I don't care i have money and a good looking face. When you know the truth you understand some stuff.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

gooooofffff said:


> Oh yeah. Same shit.
> 
> And thats number is a lie.
> 
> For many reasons and mostly because MBTI change because japanese don't consider extrovert same than an american.
> 
> Its not real science.
> 
> 
> IQ money power beauty are the real one.
> 
> 
> MBTI is nothing very impressive .
> 
> 
> I'v seen rich boy weirdo ISFJ because rich IQ family make more than any ENTJ.
> 
> Everything was made to keep people in illusion. And this is not a real science.


1% of seven billion is seventy million, not seven hundred million.

I don't really have anything to say about the rest of what you wrote, other than you marry the woman you love and women can and do love freely.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

gooooofffff said:


> If your scale beauty is not in top 1% of girls and your scale IQ is not into 1% girls your no special but you can lie to yourself.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> Lol


Why is it so important to you that she thinks she's special? Who really cares?


----------



## Wisteria

Ock said:


> Why is it so important to you that she thinks she's special? Who really cares?


It's a joke btw. About MBTI sites claiming how rare INFJs are.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

Wisteria said:


> It's a joke btw. About MBTI sites claiming how rare INFJs are.


It is kinda odd because these sites seem to be overflowing with INFJ's, or at least _supposed_ INFJ's.


----------



## Wisteria

Ock said:


> It is kinda odd because these sites seem to be overflowing with INFJ's, or at least _supposed_ INFJ's.


Yeah, I don't give a damn about type rarities tbh because the theory doesn't have any scientific or super interesting value anyway.


----------



## Karsdorp

It's the best thread I have witnessed for a long time!


----------



## willierfelton

I generally believe it is highly unlikely on the grounds that head type doesn't feel directly by any means (really would state it's my last fix?) however idk, a few things about it very well may be correct,

Regards,
quality auto parts


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

Does anyone actually think I'm not an ISFP or a 6w5?


----------



## secondpassing

Ock said:


> Does anyone actually think I'm not an ISFP or a 6w5?


I doubt it.


----------



## Fallen Angel

INXP

Your overall type preference is:
type 4 (4w5) first,
type 5 (5w4) second,
and type 8 (8w9) third.

Your dominant body-based type is type 8 (8w9)
Your dominant heart-based type is type 4 (4w5)
Your dominant head-based type is type 5 (5w4)

My big five scores are in my sig. 


Does anyone disagree with the above typing of me? What type do you think I am?


----------



## 556155

Fallen Angel said:


> INXP
> 
> Your overall type preference is:
> type 4 (4w5) first,
> type 5 (5w4) second,
> and type 8 (8w9) third.
> 
> Your dominant body-based type is type 8 (8w9)
> Your dominant heart-based type is type 4 (4w5)
> Your dominant head-based type is type 5 (5w4)
> 
> My big five scores are in my sig.
> 
> 
> Does anyone disagree with the above typing of me? What type do you think I am?


From the posts from you I have seen, 458 seem to fit. What do you think your instinctual stacking is ? It looks like you could be self preservation first. I don't know why I had instinctively pinned you as an INFJ due to your posts being more theoretical and big picture-seeking than those of other INFPs. Also Idk your musical tastes seem to be very Ni-Se for me (that's a shallow way to type someone I know)

But Idk, don't count on my hunch for typing people, I could be off.


----------



## Fallen Angel

YvonneZemski said:


> From the posts from you I have seen, 458 seem to fit. What do you think your instinctual stacking is ? It looks like you could be self preservation first. I don't know why I had instinctively pinned you as an INFJ in her twenties due to your posts being more theoretical and big picture-seeking than those of other INFPs. Also Idk your musical tastes seem to be very Ni-Se for me (that's a shallow way to type someone I know)
> 
> But Idk, don't count on my hunch for typing people, I could be off.


I have a high opinion of you, Yvonne, so I'm inclined to take this seriously. I'm glad you responded. I'll chew on this a bit. 

Yes, I'm probably self preservation first.


----------



## 556155

Fallen Angel said:


> I have a high opinion of you, Yvonne, so I'm inclined to take this seriously. I'm glad you responded. I'll chew on this a bit.
> 
> Yes, I'm probably self preservation first.


Why thank you.


----------



## Fallen Angel

Fallen Angel said:


> INXP
> 
> Your overall type preference is:
> type 4 (4w5) first,
> type 5 (5w4) second,
> and type 8 (8w9) third.
> 
> Your dominant body-based type is type 8 (8w9)
> Your dominant heart-based type is type 4 (4w5)
> Your dominant head-based type is type 5 (5w4)
> 
> My big five scores are in my sig.
> 
> 
> Does anyone disagree with the above typing of me? What type do you think I am?



More info:

*Introverted Intuition (Ni)*

if you got this result, it means you scored high on Ni! you are probably future oriented, a planner, creative, abstract, look for meaning, and can often read a situation extremely well.

dominant Ni users: infj, intj
auxiliary Ni users: enfj, entj


Your answers
Introverted Intuition (Ni)
66

Introverted Feeling (Fi)
63

Extroverted Intuition (Ne)
55

Extroverted Feeling (Fe)
48

Extroverted Thinking (Te)
42

Extroverted Sensing (Se)
32

Introverted Thinking (Ti)
30

Introverted Sensing (Si)
16

-----------------------------------------------










-----------------------------------------


I took a test meant to clarify whether I'm an INFP or INFJ:

*Your Top Results*

More Details
50%

INFP

More Details
50%

INFJ



------------------------

*The Monk – INFJ-Ti/Se (T-)
Introverted, iNtuitive, Feeling & Judging*






*Introverted Thinking – Logical-Mathematical Intelligence**Extroverted Sensing – Nature Intelligence**Turbulence + Industriousness*


*Honour (The Knight)*
As a Knight, you act according to royal, princely conduct, focusing on setting a good example for other people. Honour means that rather than basing your decisions on emotions or logical rationale, you base it on established conventions and a more informal code.
*iNtuitive (The Magician)*
We know this type sometimes as a whimsical trickster, and sometimes a master of the impossible. You navigate the world with intuition, chasing to realise unconscious potential. Less interested in proving their gifts to others, you rely on creativity and your imagination to make decisions.
*Flexibility (The Mediator)*
Mediators are flexible types who are comfortable both with planning and improvisation. You adjust your actions and decisions to the situation. You can struggle to maintain a goal or passion for a longer time.
*Introvert (The Healer)*
The Healer is careful and seeks harmony and peace. You avoid fighting and try not to cause harm to the world. This can make you at times cautious and wary. Instead, you seek to help and fix what is wrong.
*I/E – Introverted – Extroverted*
33.75 out of 100


*S/N – Sensing / Intuition*
63.75 out of 100


*F/T – Thinking / Feeling*
53.75 out of 100

*P/J – Perceiving / Judging*
50 out of 100


*A/T – Turbulent (T) I Assertive (A)*
45 out of 100


*+/- – Industrious (-) / Playful (+)*
40 out of 100


*(Fe) Extraverted Feeling – The Diplomat*
37.5 out of 100

*(Fi) Introverted Feeling – The Counsellor*
70 out of 100

*(Ne) Extraverted Intuition – The Detective*
47.5 out of 100

*(Ni) Introverted iNtuition – The Philosopher*
80 out of 100


*(Se) Extraverted Sensing – The Adventurer*
20 out of 100

*(Si) Introverted Sensing – The Teacher*
52.5 out of 100

*(Te) Extraverted Thinking – The Doer*
30 out of 100

*(Ti) Introverted Thinking – The Scientist*
65 out of 100



------------

Big Five scores: 

Openness: 88%
Conscientiousness: 50% 
Extroversion: 0% 
Agreeableness: 13% 
Neuroticism: 63%


----------



## Zoingeroni

Just when I thought that I was done being wrong about my type, it turns out I'm 9>1, 9w1 instead of 1w2. Way too lazy and passive(-aggressive) to be a 1. D'OH.


----------



## Zoingeroni

Fallen Angel said:


> Introverted Intuition (Ni)
> 66
> 
> Introverted Feeling (Fi)
> 63
> 
> Extroverted Intuition (Ne)
> 55
> 
> Extroverted Feeling (Fe)
> 48
> 
> 50%
> 
> INFP
> 
> 50%
> 
> INFJ
> 
> *P/J – Perceiving / Judging*
> 50 out of 100
> 
> *(Fe) Extraverted Feeling – The Diplomat*
> 37.5 out of 100
> 
> *(Fi) Introverted Feeling – The Counsellor*
> 70 out of 100
> 
> *(Ne) Extraverted Intuition – The Detective*
> 47.5 out of 100
> 
> *(Ni) Introverted iNtuition – The Philosopher*
> 80 out of 100


Damn. These scores are unfortuante lol!


----------



## Zoingeroni

Ock said:


> It is kinda odd because these sites seem to be overflowing with INFJ's, or at least _supposed_ INFJ's.


Lmao I've had close relationships with 4 INFJ's, 2 INTJ's, multiple INFP's. Either I attract INxx's or we're not as rare as we think xP


----------



## Hexigoon

I'm not doubting my type here but just out of curiosity, if I was to ask how I come across on this site what type (mbti and enneagram) would you say?


----------



## Asd456

Hexigoon said:


> I'm not doubting my type here but just out of curiosity, if I was to ask how I come across on this site what type (mbti and enneagram) would you say?


9 or Self-Preservation 2, INFJ SP/SX. You have a very calm or chill vibe. Also, this description comes to mind.


----------



## Hexigoon

Asd456 said:


> 9 or Self-Preservation 2, INFJ SP/SX. You have a very calm or chill vibe. Also, this description comes to mind.


Thanks for responding. I do think I'm a sp/sx. I have considered 9 before as far as tritype goes, I can't tell if I'm a 9w1 or a 1w9 though. I find it quite hard to see myself as a 2 though. Perhaps it's because it's in the heart center and I find my own emotions confusing to deal with. If I am a 2 I'm a pretty weird socially-avoidant one, so I don't know how much I truly desire love from others. I like people to like me certainly, I don't want pointless drama. Ideally I especially like to impress and be respected for my merits and efforts for some reason. One day I'd like to hear I inspired others to become better.


----------



## Fallen Angel

Fallen Angel said:


> INXP
> 
> Your overall type preference is:
> type 4 (4w5) first,
> type 5 (5w4) second,
> and type 8 (8w9) third.
> 
> Your dominant body-based type is type 8 (8w9)
> Your dominant heart-based type is type 4 (4w5)
> Your dominant head-based type is type 5 (5w4)
> 
> My big five scores are in my sig.
> 
> 
> Does anyone disagree with the above typing of me? What type do you think I am?





Fallen Angel said:


> More info:
> 
> *Introverted Intuition (Ni)*
> 
> if you got this result, it means you scored high on Ni! you are probably future oriented, a planner, creative, abstract, look for meaning, and can often read a situation extremely well.
> 
> dominant Ni users: infj, intj
> auxiliary Ni users: enfj, entj
> 
> 
> Your answers
> Introverted Intuition (Ni)
> 66
> 
> Introverted Feeling (Fi)
> 63
> 
> Extroverted Intuition (Ne)
> 55
> 
> Extroverted Feeling (Fe)
> 48
> 
> Extroverted Thinking (Te)
> 42
> 
> Extroverted Sensing (Se)
> 32
> 
> Introverted Thinking (Ti)
> 30
> 
> Introverted Sensing (Si)
> 16
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> 
> I took a test meant to clarify whether I'm an INFP or INFJ:
> 
> *Your Top Results*
> 
> More Details
> 50%
> 
> INFP
> 
> More Details
> 50%
> 
> INFJ
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------
> 
> *The Monk – INFJ-Ti/Se (T-)
> Introverted, iNtuitive, Feeling & Judging*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Introverted Thinking – Logical-Mathematical Intelligence**Extroverted Sensing – Nature Intelligence**Turbulence + Industriousness*
> 
> 
> *Honour (The Knight)*
> As a Knight, you act according to royal, princely conduct, focusing on setting a good example for other people. Honour means that rather than basing your decisions on emotions or logical rationale, you base it on established conventions and a more informal code.
> *iNtuitive (The Magician)*
> We know this type sometimes as a whimsical trickster, and sometimes a master of the impossible. You navigate the world with intuition, chasing to realise unconscious potential. Less interested in proving their gifts to others, you rely on creativity and your imagination to make decisions.
> *Flexibility (The Mediator)*
> Mediators are flexible types who are comfortable both with planning and improvisation. You adjust your actions and decisions to the situation. You can struggle to maintain a goal or passion for a longer time.
> *Introvert (The Healer)*
> The Healer is careful and seeks harmony and peace. You avoid fighting and try not to cause harm to the world. This can make you at times cautious and wary. Instead, you seek to help and fix what is wrong.
> *I/E – Introverted – Extroverted*
> 33.75 out of 100
> 
> 
> *S/N – Sensing / Intuition*
> 63.75 out of 100
> 
> 
> *F/T – Thinking / Feeling*
> 53.75 out of 100
> 
> *P/J – Perceiving / Judging*
> 50 out of 100
> 
> 
> *A/T – Turbulent (T) I Assertive (A)*
> 45 out of 100
> 
> 
> *+/- – Industrious (-) / Playful (+)*
> 40 out of 100
> 
> 
> *(Fe) Extraverted Feeling – The Diplomat*
> 37.5 out of 100
> 
> *(Fi) Introverted Feeling – The Counsellor*
> 70 out of 100
> 
> *(Ne) Extraverted Intuition – The Detective*
> 47.5 out of 100
> 
> *(Ni) Introverted iNtuition – The Philosopher*
> 80 out of 100
> 
> 
> *(Se) Extraverted Sensing – The Adventurer*
> 20 out of 100
> 
> *(Si) Introverted Sensing – The Teacher*
> 52.5 out of 100
> 
> *(Te) Extraverted Thinking – The Doer*
> 30 out of 100
> 
> *(Ti) Introverted Thinking – The Scientist*
> 65 out of 100
> 
> 
> 
> ------------
> 
> Big Five scores:
> 
> Openness: 88%
> Conscientiousness: 50%
> Extroversion: 0%
> Agreeableness: 13%
> Neuroticism: 63%


More info from tests I've taken is quoted above.

According to the typologycentral test:

INFJ

Ni > Ti = Fe = Ne > Fi = Si > Te > Se


----------



## Zoingeroni

I'm yet again wrong, im 946, not 496.


----------



## BroNerd

I might have to give up being a 7w6. Honestly, I haven't felt happy at all in the past six weeks.


----------



## Purrfessor

BroNerd said:


> I might have to give up being a 7w6. Honestly, I haven't felt happy at all in the past six weeks.


6 weeks isnt enough time to make a judgment. Are you disintegrating to 1?


----------



## BroNerd

Purrfessor said:


> 6 weeks isnt enough time to make a judgment. Are you disintegrating to 1?


If being more critical of everything means I'm disintegrating to 1 - then yes.
I've just been finding it so easy to see the negative of any situation.


----------



## Purrfessor

BroNerd said:


> If being more critical of everything means I'm disintegrating to 1 - then yes.
> I've just been finding it so easy to see the negative of any situation.


Unhealthy 1s can be critical yes


----------



## BroNerd

Purrfessor said:


> Unhealthy 1s can be critical yes


Something to think about for sure. I also have had a bunch of stuff happen which is making me feel more down. Things which make me think life is kind of hopeless. Or at least any positivity I had is gone.

Had described the events in my life - but thought it was TMI so I removed. Basically I think a lot of what I'm feeling now is due to things happening in my life.


----------



## Purrfessor

BroNerd said:


> Something to think about for sure. I also have had a bunch of stuff happen which is making me feel more down. Things which make me think life is kind of hopeless. Or at least any positivity I had is gone.
> 
> Had described the events in my life - but thought it was TMI so I removed. Basically I think a lot of what I'm feeling now is due to things happening in my life.


Do you feel desire to escape the pain? 7s are really distraught over pain and will do anything to escape it even drugs. If youre depressed that could entice you to escape somehow. I have 7 fix. What I did was play way too many video games and take it way too seriously cuz I was escaping real life. I had depression.

Im on meds now.


----------



## Full_fathom_4

I think a lot of ppl are experiencing the angst of something (anything) not ideal. We know this 1-7-5 line to be a sensitive one, in areas. That addresses nothing specific to your individual life, be that as it may, but the reaction to the un-ideal is certainly worth spending a quiet moment with...


----------



## BroNerd

Purrfessor said:


> Do you feel desire to escape the pain? 7s are really distraught over pain and will do anything to escape it even drugs. If youre depressed that could entice you to escape somehow. I have 7 fix. What I did was play way too many video games and take it way too seriously cuz I was escaping real life. I had depression.
> 
> Im on meds now.
> 
> View attachment 880832


I'm an escapist for sure when things are down. I've come a long way since my freshman year in college but I was on academic probation because I had some issues I wasn't even aware of at the time - however, I focused on alcohol and soft drugs (like weed) to get through just about everything.

I don't overindulge anymore like that which almost forces me to experience the pain more. 

But interestingly enough, I do play more video games than I used to just to distract myself. I feel better when I can escape reality for a little bit.

I have an addictive personality in general but I've been working hard to fight my addictions with positive results - for example, I lost over 10 pounds because I decided to put in a rigid diet [foods I enjoy but nothing crazy high-calorie, vegetables are my best friend here]. I don't let myself go over the deep end.

I think, compared to my past, that my pain is largely situational. [In college, while the bad grades certainly didn't help. My poor grades were the product of my issues rather than the cause.] Like if certain things improve - I can feel the rush of happiness come back to me.

My mom broke her hip last month after a bad fall. She's recovering nicely and apparently is on good track to be in full recovery by end of July. My mom isn't that old so she's doing better than my grandma did when she had the same injury [she was in a rehab center for almost six months]. 
But I still worry about her - especially since she's in FL and I'm in NY.


----------



## Allostasis

So, recently with the help of someone more knowledgeable on the subject, I realized that 8 as my core makes much more sense than 5, while 5 is just a very strong fix.
And integration 8->2 describes my experiences more accurately than 5->8 so far.

And therefore changed 583 to 853 and 5w6 to 8w9.
Objections are welcome.


----------



## Lunacik

Allostasis said:


> So, recently with the help of someone more knowledgeable on the subject, I realized that 8 as my core makes much more sense than 5, while 5 is just a very strong fix.
> And integration 8->2 describes my experiences more accurately than 5->8 so far.
> 
> And therefore changed 583 to 853 and 5w6 to 8w9.
> Objections are welcome.


Without knowing your reasons for typing that way I can only cover the overlap with other types. If you have more info as to why you're typing that way, maybe I could offer more useful input than this.

Before I say anything, I'll just put it out there that I am open to the idea that I could be wrong in the ways I perceive the overlap between types, especially if it's due to the fact that types are not going to be a perfect fit for everyone. Someone may most resemble a particular type, yet still be different.

I'm also aware that in some cases most of the materials don't quite cover the type in the way they should. I'll use my own typing as an example of what I mean.
I type as 9w8 and most of the resources cover 9w1 moreso. They fail to cover the way the E8 things combine with E9 to paint a pretty different picture than the 9w1 who just seemingly internalizes everything to no end. As a 9w8 my experiences are more like...if something is interfering with that peace I'll confront things in a pretty E8 way in order to return to that peaceful state, and that being my motive is key. Btw, I don't mean the stereotypes about E8 aNgEr iSsuEs, I just mean the way 8's are with independence (not being indebted or letting power dynamics reign over them), challenges, protectiveness, and..._actual_ E8 things. There aren't many resources for healthy E9's who are not unassertive and therefore don't relate to that core fear of loss, nor for those who have Sx or So in their stacking and don't want to "merge" as resources claim, but instead kind of just do anyway. Yet, here I am. I still type as a 9 despite those factors because ever since my childhood and up, I still have the most similarity to and problems with E9's peace seeking "I'm fine" coping mechanisms, equilibrium, numbing out, and I still do have to combat issues with "premature peace" / inertia and not let myself go there (with the way my life is, I really can't even afford to, and I can be a bit more like E8 in dealing with things as an alternative). This is just extra in my mind, but E3 integration also fits me, as well as E6 disintegration to an extent. In my mind integration and disintegration are questionable, so I don't believe these things should be interpreted as strong or fundamental reasons for typing a specific way. I tend to prioritize information so that reasons for typing as X or Y core actually come from matching X or Y core.

I usually don't really think INTJ 8 makes much sense, mostly because of that E/I. E8 is described in a really extroverted way. I find it difficult to accept the notion that there are no such things as introverted E8s though. I find it more probable that the textbooks fail to cover the way the 8 dynamics manifest in introverts in the same way they fail to cover 9w8 as much as 9w1, or to cover healthy and assertive E9s.

Socionics wise though, that type combination is very weird to me...I mean, Socionics Se is pretty much just E8 in a nutshell more or less. ILI has 1D Se, and has "Se Suggestive Function," alternatively known as "Se Seeking" -- aka appreciates those who can push them, motivate them, provide them with direction, etc. because they have problems with producing that on their own and can get caught up in inertia or stagnation. I was once very close to an E5 ILI and I found that I would pretty frequently have to kind of push him outside of his comfort zones in an Se kind of way in order to get him to take action more, or to get him to stop conserving resources so much that he doesn't go after what he actually desires due to seeing things as unobtainable. I basically tried to help him learn to expand his resources so that it would be obtainable rather than minimizing his needs and denying himself of his desires in order to conserve the smaller quantity of resources. That stuff is E5 as fuck, but the motivation / stagnation / comfort zone factor was also very Se Suggestive Function.

A few years ago I would've pointed out some discrepancies between MBTI cognitive function Ni and E8, but...to be completely honest with you, I can barely even tell what Ni is because so many sources make it sound like some sort of mystical superpower and Jung sucks at communication, lol. I mostly can only recall that it's relevant to pattern recognition, foresight / trajectory, and "the unconscious" in some vague way. As a dominant function though...well, it's a bit weird for an E8 to be divorced from the physical world in the way Ni dominant / Se inferior would be, I suppose.

I reiterate: if you provide more information as to why you're typing that way, maybe I could offer more useful input than this.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

I'm pretty sure my step dad was an 8w9 introvert. Maybe an ISTJ?


----------



## Allostasis

@Hexcoder


> Without knowing your reasons for typing that way I can only cover the overlap with other types. If you have more info as to why you're typing that way, maybe I could offer more useful input than this.


I filled this questionnaire some while ago :








What is my enneagram type and wing?


What age range are you in? Any disorders or conditions we should know about? 25. No conditions. What do you think your life is about? What drives you in life? This can be something like a goal or a purpose, or anything else that comes to mind. My life is about self-realization, exploration...




www.personalitycafe.com




This is how I initially was typed as 583.



> I usually don't really think INTJ 8 makes much sense, mostly because of that E/I. E8 is described in a really extroverted way.
> I find it difficult to accept the notion that there are no such things as introverted E8s though. I find it more probable that the textbooks fail to cover the way the 8 dynamics manifest in introverts in the same way they fail to cover 9w8 as much as 9w1, or to cover healthy and assertive E9s.


Enneagram resources are no better than the average mbti blog post, maybe this is where the association with extraversion comes from.
Besides, in Jung's theory introversion doesn't mean conservation of energy. It is actually more related to channeling your will/subjective image and shaping the world in accordance to it.



> Socionics Se is pretty much just E8 in a nutshell more or less. ILI has 1D Se, and has "Se Suggestive Function," alternatively known as "Se Seeking" -- aka appreciates those who can push them, motivate them, provide them with direction, etc. because they have problems with producing that on their own and can get caught up in inertia or stagnation. I was once very close to an E5 ILI and I found that I would pretty frequently have to kind of push him outside of his comfort zones in an Se kind of way in order to get him to take action more, or to get him to stop conserving resources so much that he doesn't go after what he actually desires due to seeing things as unobtainable.


Yes, none of that is relatable to me. I am neither Se seeking nor need external motivation. I guess I will have to revise socionics later as well.



> As a dominant function though...well, it's a bit weird for an E8 to be divorced from the physical world in the way Ni dominant / Se inferior would be, I suppose.


Yeah, I am not very physical, but I think it is just another superficial stereotype and the point is how I manage my energy. Not my relation to sports, body or sciences. 
But I do relate with how lust is integrated into E8. More than with tendency to withdraw and preserve what I have.


----------



## Lunacik

.


----------



## Lunacik

Allostasis said:


> @Hexcoder
> 
> I filled this questionnaire some while ago :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is my enneagram type and wing?
> 
> 
> What age range are you in? Any disorders or conditions we should know about? 25. No conditions. What do you think your life is about? What drives you in life? This can be something like a goal or a purpose, or anything else that comes to mind. My life is about self-realization, exploration...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.personalitycafe.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how I initially was typed as 583.


That helps some.
Based on that, I'd rule out 5 as your core. Tbh that test you mentioned gives pretty much everyone E5 results.



> Enneagram resources are no better than the average mbti blog post, maybe this is where the association with extraversion comes from.


No, I disagree. My main resource is Wisdom of the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson (in spite of its laughable title). There are other books as well, but I use this one. Naranjo is a good resource as well. Unlike MBTI, there are some authority sources on the topic which provide elaborate and clearly defined descriptions. I can send you the WoE book privately if you'd like the link.



> Besides, in Jung's theory introversion doesn't mean conservation of energy. It is actually more related to channeling your will/subjective image and shaping the world in accordance to it.


In Big 5, the most credible of all the systems, assertiveness is part of the extroverted facet. Furthermore, the way that E8s are said to assert control over their environment requires at least some degree of social energy. They are also described as having more of an external focus than internal, such as that which is found in those who are cognitively extroverted.

Conservation of energy in terms of Enneagram is an E5 thing. Enneagram doesn't outright cover introversion and extroversion as far as I know.



> Yes, none of that is relatable to me. I am neither Se seeking nor need external motivation. I guess I will have to revise socionics later as well.


Yeah, again, I would pretty much rule out 5 at this point. 5s feel the world around them is bigger than they are, therefore they over -prepare and have problems with taking action. Your questionnaire showed higher Se than 1D as well, so if that's accurate then I agree with taking another look at Socionics. You don't come off as 1D Se in your other posts, either.




> Yeah, I am not very physical, but I think it is just another superficial stereotype and the point is how I manage my energy. Not my relation to sports, body or sciences.
> But I do relate with how lust is integrated into E8. More than with tendency to withdraw and preserve what I have.


That actually isn't quite what I meant by physical. E8s are just described as being engaged with and attuned to the world around them in a way that asserts control and leadership (in a very Socionics Se way). This also resembles the cognitive extroversion I mentioned. They are less focused on their inner world and more attuned to and engaging with the outside world in order to assert themselves over it.

I am open to the idea that a more introverted and therefore reserved version may exist.


----------



## Allostasis

@Hexcoder


> Unlike MBTI, there are some authority sources on the topic which provide elaborate and clearly defined descriptions. I can send you the WoE book privately if you'd like the link.


Yes, that would help.



> Furthermore, the way that E8s are said to assert control over their environment requires at least some degree of social energy. They are also described as having more of an external focus than internal, such as that which is found in those who are cognitively extroverted.


Social extraversion doesn't follow from the extraversion in the Jungian sense, as I understand.
I am not sure what external focus would imply though.
Anyway, I am not very social but I have no issues with going against the environment.



> E8s are just described as being engaged with and attuned to the world around them in a way that asserts control and leadership (in a very Socionics Se way). This also resembles the cognitive extroversion I mentioned. They are less focused on their inner world and more attuned to and engaging with the outside world in order to assert themselves over it.


What is specifically implied by "engagement with the outside world" though?
I am not too knowledgeable in socionics, to be honest, so I can't accurately interpret the meaning behind overlaps with it.

Subjectively I experience myself attuned with the inner world more yet I am not anxious about protecting it and have no issues with asserting it over the external.



> I am open to the idea that a more introverted and therefore reserved version may exist


Yes, but I would treat it as a side effect/consequence rather than the premise of the hypothesis if enneagrams say nothing about the I/E.


----------



## Lunacik

I'm Sx Dom.

Please prove me wrong.


----------



## Lunacik

Hexcoder said:


> @Allostasis I could accept E8 maybe, but dat Sx, tho...youz Sx blind as fuck, mang. And Distant-Avoidant attachment style. You've got higher than 2D Socionics Se as well.





Allostasis said:


> Interesting, can you elaborate on bolded parts: how did you discern blind spot and what 3d+ Se entails?
> I don't have any objections against ISTP. 9w8 seems right also.
> Can't say anything about sx/xp SLI, not very knowledgeable in socionics.


Replying here so I don't derail the thread and people get confused about who they're typing again.
Sorry for delay - narcolepsy sleep attack and such

Sx is basically about intimacy and connection. It's a need for intense intimacy, pretty much...something you stated you've never had with people, something you've stated is foreign, abstract, and something you don't have that longing for.

Socionics Se is...actually, I'll pull up something that aligns with it from your type thread:



















Se has a lot to do with deciding what is right for others; will, force, motivation, authority, etc. in contrast to Si which is more orientated toward the self; comfort, aesthetics, physical sensations, harmony with environment, etc etc etc

and then in contrast to Ni as well which pertains more to seeing things across time, prediction, foresight, etc 

Some words depend on the context they are used in and are considered "multi-elemental" - so with that said, the flaw in my point that I didn't notice until actually writing this all out is that you might've been thinking of something Te based for example.

but yeah, basically, Carl Jung's work got sandwiched with Antoni Kępiński's theory of information metabolism by Aušra Augustinavičiūtė and then they had a baby named Socionics. Ayyyye! 🎊 So...a lot of the IE's or Information Metabolism Elements differ from Cognitive Functions by Herald Grant and are not 100% Jung, either...so Se in Socionics is very different than Se in ... "MBTI" which is technically incorrect since MBTI = dichotomies, but whatever, that's what everyone calls it bc that's what popularized Jung's work and made it more accessible to the public.

Socionics is kind of nuanced, it's difficult for me to just sort of slap down a clear answer, sorry.


----------



## Allostasis

Hexcoder said:


> Replying here so I don't derail the thread and people get confused about who they're typing again.
> Sorry for delay - narcolepsy sleep attack and such
> 
> Sx is basically about intimacy and connection. It's a need for intense intimacy, pretty much...something you stated you've never had with people, something you've stated is foreign, abstract, and something you don't have that longing for.
> 
> Socionics Se is...actually, I'll pull up something that aligns with it from your type thread:
> View attachment 881596
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 881597
> 
> 
> Se has a lot to do with deciding what is right for others; will, force, motivation, authority, etc. in contrast to Si which is more orientated toward the self; comfort, aesthetics, physical sensations, harmony with environment, etc etc etc
> 
> and then in contrast to Ni as well which pertains more to seeing things across time, prediction, foresight, etc
> 
> Some words depend on the context they are used in and are considered "multi-elemental" - so with that said, the flaw in my point that I didn't notice until actually writing this all out is that you might've been thinking of something Te based for example.
> 
> but yeah, basically, Carl Jung's work got sandwiched with Antoni Kępiński's theory of information metabolism by Aušra Augustinavičiūtė and then they had a baby named Socionics. Ayyyye! 🎊 So...a lot of the IE's or Information Metabolism Elements differ from Cognitive Functions by Herald Grant and are not 100% Jung, either...so Se in Socionics is very different than Se in ... "MBTI" which is technically incorrect since MBTI = dichotomies, but whatever, that's what everyone calls it bc that's what popularized Jung's work and made it more accessible to the public.
> 
> Socionics is kind of nuanced, it's difficult for me to just sort of slap down a clear answer, sorry.


Thanks, don't bother about delays. 
Yes, I guess I am too detached to be sp/sx if it implies a need for intense/intimate connections. 


> is that you might've been thinking of something Te based for example.


I interpreted this "deciding what is right" as a generic "objective" estimation of how to fix/improve stuff, I suppose this might be something in line with socionics Te as well, not sure.
Can you recommend any good resources on socionics? It seems intriguing but there is a lot of conflicting material/descriptions.


----------



## Lunacik

Allostasis said:


> Thanks, don't bother about delays.
> Yes, I guess I am too detached to be sp/sx if it implies a need for intense/intimate connections.


It relates to intensity in other aspects as well, such as stimulating conversations--which I know you enjoy--but it's really an all around thing while probably _mostly_ related to connections. Just figured I'd clarify.



> I interpreted this "deciding what is right" as a generic "objective" estimation of how to fix/improve stuff, I suppose this might be something in line with socionics Te as well, not sure.
> Can you recommend any good resources on socionics? It seems intriguing but there is a lot of conflicting material/descriptions.


Tbh I'm not sure either, I'd probably need specific examples. 

Socionics is really fun to learn about imo--I LOVE the way the information is organized. Is it the most practical? Most likely not. It's probably a far too structured concept to be optimally applicable to human beings. It's still fun and interesting though imo.

Sources:
•> Socionics from novice to expert | School of System Socionics
•> Socionics


----------



## Internal

I'm pretty confident about being Sx first. Probs Sx/Sp, but I cannot work that out.
However, I'm being torn between 7w6 and 6w7 core. Just both ring true. Maybe 6w7 more? One fix is 9w8, I can settle on that. Then either 3w4 or 4wx?

And I gave up on MBTI. Typings are on both ends of the spectrum, and I find reason in both of them. Just cannot peel off what is learned, and what is _me_.


----------



## Lunacik

Internal said:


> I'm pretty confident about being Sx first. Probs Sx/Sp, but I cannot work that out.
> However, I'm being torn between 7w6 and 6w7 core. Just both ring true. Maybe 6w7 more? One fix is 9w8, I can settle on that. Then either 3w4 or 4wx?
> 
> And I gave up on MBTI. Typings are on both ends of the spectrum, and I find reason in both of them. Just cannot peel off what is learned, and what is _me_.


I don't really mess with tritypes but I can help with core. What's got you torn?


----------



## Internal

Hexcoder said:


> I don't really mess with tritypes but I can help with core. What's got you torn?


First of all - thank you.

All right. By behavior, I could be called a stereotypical sx 6 - I've been mistaken irl for an 8, but I know that my aggression isn't fearless, there's an underlying insecurity that I'm trying to mask that way. However, the "core traits" of 6 - that is, not being trusting and being on the lookout for danger is absolutely not true. On the contrary - I'm very trusting, I openly share nearly anything about myself, and I have a pretty much "whatever comes" attitude.

And I've read that a strong wing can mask the "real" type, so I checked out 7 (which I've been typed as, too), and the sx 7 description is completely me (I was using the Beatrice Chestnut description, here: Enneagram Sexual Seven — Ashlie Woods | Wildhearted ) - I live in my head, idealizing everything, imagining hypothetical scenarios instead of actually living them. But I'm also not the extroverted, 100% carefree person.

Looking at the core fears further complicates things... because I can relate to both. Maybe 6 a bit more, but 7 also comes close.

Now that I typed this out I'm inclined towards 6 again...


----------



## Sinuous

Seems like I’m more of an fi dominant than a ti one. If that’s a real thing, anyway.


----------



## Lunacik

I've officially changed my tritype from 954 to 962. I am Sx Dom, so that 6 is counterphobic (the only possible way that 6 could fit me at all imo).
Core type is 9w8 Sx/Sp.

Gently fite me.










If anyone has any objections, please feel free. Questions are also welcomed.


----------



## Lunacik

Internal said:


> First of all - thank you.
> 
> All right. By behavior, I could be called a stereotypical sx 6 - I've been mistaken irl for an 8, but I know that my aggression isn't fearless, there's an underlying insecurity that I'm trying to mask that way. However, the "core traits" of 6 - that is, not being trusting and being on the lookout for danger is absolutely not true. On the contrary - I'm very trusting, I openly share nearly anything about myself, and I have a pretty much "whatever comes" attitude.
> 
> And I've read that a strong wing can mask the "real" type, so I checked out 7 (which I've been typed as, too), and the sx 7 description is completely me (I was using the Beatrice Chestnut description, here: Enneagram Sexual Seven — Ashlie Woods | Wildhearted ) - I live in my head, idealizing everything, imagining hypothetical scenarios instead of actually living them. But I'm also not the extroverted, 100% carefree person.
> 
> Looking at the core fears further complicates things... because I can relate to both. Maybe 6 a bit more, but 7 also comes close.
> 
> Now that I typed this out I'm inclined towards 6 again...


Oh shit, I completely forgot to respond to this. Sorry. Hmm, I guess I don't have enough detail to be able to really help give you a sense of direction though. I think the most helpful thing I can do is send you a link to the WoE book in my dropbox account and see what you think using that resource. The Wisdom of the Enneagram.pdf If you send more information I will help via my own input as well though.


----------



## hahahoneybee

I'm not sure what info to give but I am itching for some interaction on this forum so does anyone wanna try? I think I'm either 614 or 641 and prob so/sx stacking and not sx/so stacking and I'm not particular about the phobic/counterphobic thing, or at least they are fairly equal for me
edit: seeing another post describing the instincts makes me think sp is higher in the stack, but idk... so hard to tell!


----------



## Electra

hahahoneybee said:


> I'm not sure what info to give but I am itching for some interaction on this forum so does anyone wanna try? I think I'm either 614 or 641 and prob so/sx stacking and not sx/so stacking and I'm not particular about the phobic/counterphobic thing, or at least they are fairly equal for me
> edit: seeing another post describing the instincts makes me think sp is higher in the stack, but idk... so hard to tell!


Intj self preserving.
Alternatively Infj and social
High Ti and Ni
Consiencious


----------



## hahahoneybee

Electra said:


> Intj self preserving.
> Alternatively Infj and social
> High Ti and Ni


interesting, can you explain why you think this? edit: sorry! just saw the Ti and Ni comment, which was not visible on the reply itself for some reason


----------



## Electra

hahahoneybee said:


> interesting, can you explain why you think this?


It was an instant hunch. I dragged several theories together at once.
As a 6 you need safety and stability, as a five you need logic, and together with conciencious 1 one and slightly supressed fi on 4 it seems like a perfect inxj, most likely INTJ. Please take my answer with a grain of salt. Whatever you are, I think you are a rational judger with your preferences for stability and logic.


----------



## hahahoneybee

Electra said:


> It was an instant hunch. I dragged several theories together at once.


my favorite kind of reasoning lol thanks!


----------



## Electra

hahahoneybee said:


> my favorite kind of reasoning lol thanks!


Thank _you_ 🥰


----------



## Electra

hahahoneybee said:


> my favorite kind of reasoning lol thanks!


I just want to say that you seem so accomodating and easy to talk with


----------



## hahahoneybee

Electra said:


> I just want to say that you seem so accomodating and easy to talk with


thanks! i try to be, especially when I don't know people well haha it's kind of a preemptive defense for me i've noticed


----------



## Electra

hahahoneybee said:


> thanks! i try to be, especially when I don't know people well haha it's kind of a preemptive defense for me i've noticed


More power too you 😉👍
Its an excellent skill to have I've noticed over the years


----------



## attic

I have never been very into Enneagram, but I spent a day or two some years ago on it and made some tests and read a bit and concluded then I thought 5w6 seemed the one least unfitting (though there were things there not fitting too), I got about as high on 6w5 on a test too I remember, and pretty high on 9, I relate a little to1 and 2 and... 3? too I think. I don't relate so much with the descriptions of 4, but it is common for infps (I don't want to discuss mbti type here). With nine I think it was the part about leaving things be, not get involved, and so on, that doesn't resonate with me, I detatch every so often, but it is more that feel too strongly about things and can't cope, with feeling powerless, or handle the responsibility, or social contacts needed to get involved. Five was more close in some descriptions than other, same with 6 (which seemed like different types in different ones). I don't relate to those that emphasis five not dealing with emotion, and not with six and being very dependent, look to others(I am cooperative, but not subordinating, generally, though in some roles, like when I am new and know less).

If someone has some pointer with where to start with that when reconsidering (I don't want to spend super much time, it is more a bit of curiosity/fun, I don't plan to get into enneagram completely, just dip my feet a little), if there is some other type that might be worth looking into, or some aspect about the ones I have to consider that might help conclude type?


----------



## Bearlin

attic said:


> I have never been very into Enneagram, but I spent a day or two some years ago on it and made some tests and read a bit and concluded then I thought 5w6 seemed the one least unfitting (though there were things there not fitting too), I got about as high on 6w5 on a test too I remember, and pretty high on 9, I relate a little to1 and 2 and... 3? too I think. I don't relate so much with the descriptions of 4, but it is common for infps (I don't want to discuss mbti type here). With nine I think it was the part about leaving things be, not get involved, and so on, that doesn't resonate with me, I detatch every so often, but it is more that feel too strongly about things and can't cope, with feeling powerless, or handle the responsibility, or social contacts needed to get involved. Five was more close in some descriptions than other, same with 6 (which seemed like different types in different ones). I don't relate to those that emphasis five not dealing with emotion, and not with six and being very dependent, look to others(I am cooperative, but not subordinating, generally, though in some roles, like when I am new and know less).
> 
> If someone has some pointer with where to start with that when reconsidering (I don't want to spend super much time, it is more a bit of curiosity/fun, I don't plan to get into enneagram completely, just dip my feet a little), if there is some other type that might be worth looking into, or some aspect about the ones I have to consider that might help conclude type?


spend a day or TWO ! some years ago on it....*WOW.....very deep------*---->...
*expansion of *t*he human horizon, raisin' the awareness, *passionated , intensified and intelligent way to get to the core of understanding----------welcome, bienvenue, willkommen, stranger to personalitycafe...
........ (I don't want to spend super much time, it is more a bit of curiosity/fun, I don't plan to get into enneagram completely, just dip my feet a little)............
*sounds extremly interesting and inspirative...what a multidimensionaldeep stuff......*
that kind of afterbirth mucus kindergarten scum jokes must be sp/sx sphere anyway....'☠_☠_☠'


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## Sinuous

I’m the only future oriented member in my small family(esfj, xstp, xstj ) 
And it does not make sense to have two istps in a family(me and brother) 
Unless it’s possible. 
However, none of them focuses nor thinks much about the future. All of them disregard possibilities.. they have “the here and now” mentality, the” we will wait and see until then” so I think I’m really either an intp,enfp,infp,entp or an istp with more developed intuition . But even then I don’t trust my hunches. And I don’t read between the lines. 
Whatever.


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