# ISTP vs ESTP - From Cinnamon83's thread



## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

OK I created my own thread to continue the discussion with @Saturnian Devil, I thought it was too much for @Cinnamon83's thread, though I hope she also finds the comparison interesting. Any other ISTP can chime in too... thanks!




Saturnian Devil said:


> I always get ISTP and it really fits tbh.


For me what doesn't fit in ISTP is that seemingly (from my pov) extreme apathy or indifference. I'm more.. excitable and care more about stuff. I don't relate to people in a direct fashion though, it is all done very indirectly. But I do need to be involved in that indirect way or I don't feel my life is complete. Maybe just well developed inferior Fe..? Not that I view it as any good, lol, so clearly I mean it only relatively.

Does @Cinnamon83 relate? To 1) having to relate to people and to 2) the indirect fashion in which this happens?




> Nope. I am one of those people who can sit down for a while if I want to. Just not for longer than a few days at a time or else I'll go into a Ti-Ni loop. When I find myself getting restless that's usually a sign that it's time for me to get up and do something. Anything.


OK... when I first had Ti-Ni loop quite a few years ago, I actually found it useful, I felt like I improved from it in areas, Ni mostly, of course. I never fully lost the connection to Se either though it did weaken for a while and I didn't take lightly to that... I just could not really accept that. Then later I had another Ti-Ni loop heavy period and that one, it sounds more like what you describe, whenever it was getting too much Ti-Ni I'd get restless in that exact same way you describe. And yes I was able to sit down pretty long and just think and think and actually enjoyed and wanted that. 

That's not exactly my default tbh. My default is more, I want to DO something with my understanding or whatever system I built in my head. Basically my Ti is not happy without Se by default. That sitting and thinking thing was never as enjoyable before that Ti-Ni period. Btw it's a pretty recent thing too.




> Mental work doesn't bother me on my downtime. It appears that I may be lazy but really I'm just in my head analyzing things. It's Se that I notice. I notice it in my room and how it's decorated, the clothing I choose to wear on a given day, the quick turn of my head when I notice something interesting outside, etc. As far as Ti goes though I have a tendency to get into deep thought during down time and not take action because I'm thinking. Even if automatically sorting out information as I acquire it I find that I do it much more easily if I'm sitting around afterwards without external distractions.


No it doesn't bother me either, I just usually need to actually DO something with the mental work sooner or later or I go crazy not doing anything with it.

I can shut out external distractions anytime I want to so I don't really have a problem doing it while acquiring the relevant information. I guess this is just variation on type

As for the Se you mention, that seems a bit passive to me, I relate to it in a bit more active fashion... Basically what you listed is really really basic to me, I'm aware of those things on a basic level all the time. I hardly if ever fully disconnect from that awareness (and I don't like to). When I feel like I consciously notice Se because it's really "turned on" it's when I take immediate action, I love doing that. I'm really part of the environment interacting in it. Of course, I love doing it even more if I have a Ti system behind it. 

Before that last Ti-Ni period I never had the experience that thinking would stop me from action just because I'm thinking. Then that got familiar to me in that period, yeah, but it is not really something that I find to be my default way of being. I don't know, it's like priorities of Ti and Se would conflict sometimes. That was not an entirely pleasant thing, tbh.




> Makes sense. Most ESTPs I know really suck at patterns and don't really get that AHA! moment ISTPs get. Also ESTPs are typically a bit better with Fe. ESTPs are also friendlier so to speak.


I do get the AHA! moments but I'd like to compare with yours to see how profound mine are, lol. Can you give me a good typical example of these ISTP AHA! moments?

I probably do suck at those patterns but it's all relative. You probably also suck at it compared to the Ni doms :tongue:

I do spend a lot of time sometimes trying to sort out those patterns and I do not really need outside help on the Ni itself to get somewhere but sometimes a bit of Ni with Fe input does speed up things, especially the Fe part. Though this only applies to the nontechnical Ni topics, technical topics I absolutely don't need outside help with, Fe is irrelevant there.

I'm friendlier than that default ISTP description for sure, unless I feel that I am not included in the group, which I definitely will not initiate on my own as my Fe sucks as hell. Just maybe not as much as the Fe in typical ISTP descriptions. Maybe people who know me from a distance would disagree lol. My close friends (I have two, kinda yeah, close friends) both think my Fe is better than ISTP's Fe and they are unsure if I'm ESTP maybe but everyone else thinks I'm I>E (with Ti over Te so it is ISTP, just the J/P is variable, depending on who I ask).




> Personally though because I'm a visual artist it is easy for me to tap into it if needed. And I know what you meant about Ni lol. To me it's really all the same thing. Theory, symbolism, etc. I prefer the tangible either way even if I find some stuff like astrology or psychology interesting to a minimal degree. Most of it bores me though.


So when you look at some photo, can you analyse it in a Ni fashion? I absolutely cannot. This is not an understatement. I think it is cool that the Ni doms can do it, especially INFJs, and with such ease. When I look, I just see Se with some Ti, nothing else

Why does the abstract stuff mostly bore you? I understand you prefer the tangible but did you never find the Ni way of thinking cool? Either in yourself or in others. I find it really awesome both the traces of Ni in me and full-on Ni in others. Did I get this right, you are good at it but it still bores you? This is where I'm a bit hung up as to why that would be so for you. I also do not want to deal with it all day but it doesn't bore me. How are ESTPs with that, bored too? Even more bored?




> The thing with me is that I only get worn out when having to deal with unhealthy feelers or toxic emotionally melodramatic people in general because of how manipulative and conniving they tend to be. Healthy feelers I can be fine around as long as they're not asking me to talk about my feelings. To be honest however most people's emotional reactions to certain things don't make logical sense to me. When it comes to drama, it doesn't emotionally affect me or anything either unless I get too involved but that rarely happens as I'm usually too indifferent to care in the first place. I simply notice, think "oh okay they're being stupid again" and move along. Generally speaking though when it comes to deep emotions I only tolerate the deep emotions of those who matter to me. Those outside my circle, meh. I'm not concerned by how they feel though I will be polite. I am actually called cold and distant by a lot of people who don't know me at all lol. It doesn't offend me because I know it's true.


I know what you mean about that type of emotional manipulation - I absolutely am against it. Hmm, though where I don't relate to you is that I'm usually not worried about people's emotions not making perfect logical sense unless I am involved with them. If I'm not involved with them then the emotions are not going to affect me outside practical concerns with which I can deal with in other ways without having to understand the emotions; but if I'm involved with those people, I need to understand their emotions or I am going to be completely lost, feel like I'm not in control, which to me is a terrible thing. So how I make sense of the emotions is by watching the entire situations, all details that can be relevant, I will eventually match them up to get a complete logical picture inside which I can place the emotional reactions and other confusing behavioural elements from the person, I also directly track the emotions of the person in terms of timing; for the latter I will also hear out the person, so yes I need them to be able to tell me / show me / express in some way very explicitly when they feel something and what exactly the emotion is as that facilitates that process of understanding a lot. ...Of course if the situation is already familiar, I don't have to analyse everything, I can apply what I already understood.

Oh and for the people who I don't care about, I just in general know that their emotions arise from some reaction that they've had to some situation due to whatever weird ways of thinking they have but I don't particularly care to try and understand what ways of thinking those are. In this sense though, all emotions have a logical explanation, an actual cause for them, just sometimes that cause may be hard to discover. It's no real mystery I just don't care to get into it.

I deal with my own emotions in the same way. I usually know why I feel what I feel, this is easy as it's usually immediate angry reactions or other similar reactions to a situation. The non-angry type of emotions I used to be completely clueless about, I've been learning though. Slowly for sure. I just get surprised every time I get to understand something as to how clueless I actually am, lol.

I think this fits with Fe inferior really but I'm curious about your thoughts as you surely know more about ISTPs. And of course also curious about how you see my Ni. If you see my Ni as inferior instead, that's fine too, just let me know your reasoning.



> ESTPs I know may be about as awkward with feelings as ISTPs but I've noticed a difference: they are a little more concerned about others and especially by what others think of them. Meanwhile I don't really care about how people see me and never really have.


There I definitely relate more to the ESTP over the ISTP, though until age 13 I was totally ISTP with this. Whatever that means. At 13, I got a bit of Fe come up. I had zero Fe before that. (Not an exaggeration. To be more specific, I maybe had a little bit of Fe focus sporadically with some friends but otherwise not at all.)

I don't always care though, when I'm performing some task, I definitely don't have any focus on Fe. If I'm just with people without any task going on, I have more of a focus on it where I care a little bit in the fashion you describe ESTPs. That is, if I'm trying to feel involved with them. If not, then of course not.




> Makes sense. I socialize but only because I have to in order to maintain certain friendships. However partying all the time and acting like the stereotypical extrovert is totally not me lol. I don't like dealing with humans every single day in person.


Hm, that sounds like a chore, just doing it because you have to maintain friendships? Do you not enjoy it, is it not often spontaneous fun? I think if I was to only meet a friend just to maintain the whole relationship, I would not view it as a true friendship. No, I don't have issues with commitment and never did, but I think there needs to be an actual connection that both parties actually enjoy for the most part... no it doesn't mean it's always easy times. But to me it sounded weird that you'd meet them just out of obligation. 

I think I like seeing people every day. The question is, how much time I actually tolerate without getting exhausted  But I'm sure it can be tolerated everyday at least in a small dose.




> Sounds like Se might be your dominant function then if you remember Ti developing. I remember when Se started to develop but Ti was always the main one. As a child I was very quiet and did not speak at all. Didn't interact with children either though I did like to physically engage with my environment.


Well as I said it might be Ti with Ni and not just simply Ti. If that makes sense. Ti on its own, I don't remember that developing, just like I don't remember with Se. When did Se start to develop for you and what did it look like?

I was also a quiet kid. I would just observe other kids and engage a lot with the physical environment on my own. I would sometimes tell the kids when I thought there were stupid and why; and I taught them basic mathematics, lol yup. All that was already going on in kindergarten :laughing: Then in school, starting from middle school, I would argue with teachers whenever I disagreed on things which um, yeah, happened pretty often.. I also remember that even in first grade I argued with other kids by leaning on my own logic. I thought some things were fair because of certain logical reasoning I had for it and then I tried to enforce that reasoning whenever I wanted something from the kids.  The same with the teachers too, I usually wanted something to happen, well or something just didn't make sense to me. Other than the arguing I was still a quiet kid engaging with stuff primarily on my own. I guess I didn't change too much there. :shrug

What do you think about that?


Final note for now: I do have an idea in terms of my typing (that is, whether it is ISTP or ESTP). I'd like to see what ISTPs (or ESTPs etc, anyone can chime in!) say first about my type though.



Addition on the keys2cognition test also taken from the original thread:

Interesting, I redid it now and got ISTP!! (ISTP > ESTP > ISTJ) now, with Ti and Se still close to each other as usual, I think I know what it depends on whether it gives me ISTP or ESTP...


_Cognitive Process	Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ********************************************* (45.8)
excellent use
introverted Sensing (Si) ************************************** (38.6)
excellent use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************** (14.2)
unused
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ********************* (21.3)
limited use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ****************************************** (42.8)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ********************************************** (46.7)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) *************** (15.1)
unused
introverted Feeling (Fi) *************** (15.3)
unused_

(keys2cog otherwise usually gives me ESTP, with similar Ti and Se relative function strengths as in this one.)


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

@myst91 Got your post but wanted to say I'll respond to you in a bit when I'm near a computer. It's gonna be hard to type my entire response on my phone lol.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

For the record, the earlier posts


1) My post:



Saturnian Devil said:


> I'm not confused about my type or anything but I find this discussion interesting. A while ago, I actually scored as ESTP on Keys2Cognition once and I thought it was kind of interesting since I always test as ISTP. Now, I know I have high Se, but my Ti is higher. I also know that as an ISTP E9w8, I can seem extroverted at times and rather outspoken, but at the end of the day, I know my Ni is far more developed than my inferior Fe and I don't like dealing with humans every day. Shit's exhausting. Plus I analyze things first before acting on them, never the other way around.


Yeah I keep getting tested as ESTP on keys2cog but I don't buy it anymore. Though if the ISTPs here think I'm closer to ESTP than ISTP or whatever, I'm still open to hearing input (as long as I also get a reasoning for it).

I don't relate to you in terms of always analysing things before acting. I'm definitely familiar with just moving into action. I often just have a very very short phase of "thoughtless" consideration before I make a move and then I am entirely clear on everything. Clear and confident. (That very short phase though, is definitely like the mind state I described above about Ti.) But that I suppose requires a situation that I either already have a full understanding of or it's a very concrete situation that couldn't be any more clearer just by looking at it. Hm, also, I often start without having a real idea and figure out the details on the move. As I don't have the patience to sit that long analysing. That's when I do feel a bit frustrated until I get enough stuff figured out.

I can't say my Ni is "far more" developed than my Fe but I'm more confident in it than in Fe. I am not sure how I'd feel if I had to deal with people for long hours every day.. if it's action related then probably OK though. If socializing, hmm, well I have a good tolerance for that too, I just don't know what would happen if I was to do it consistently everyday over a long time period.. would I get drained or would I be able to recharge enough every night. Right now, the way I live, I meet very few people for socializing and quite rarely. 

If you don't think that still qualifies as Ti-dom, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

I guess I can be a good comparison to the OP... so I hope this isn't going too off topic 


2) Reply to that by Saturnian Devil:



> myst91 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I keep getting tested as ESTP on keys2cog but I don't buy it anymore. Though if the ISTPs here think I'm closer to ESTP than ISTP or whatever, I'm still open to hearing input (as long as I also get a reasoning for it).
> ...



3) My reply to that:



Saturnian Devil said:


> Keys2Cog is iffy, so I can't say I blame you. While I found my result interesting, I knew it didn't fit. It was just kind of funny to me in a way.


Heh I know what you mean. I once managed to get ISTP somehow.  I don't even know how :tongue: 




Saturnian Devil said:


> I probably should have been more clear on what I meant, but I'll clarify. Sorry if I confused you. See, if it's something I'm already familiar with, I do act more quickly. Because I already know what to expect and I'm not as concerned about messing up. With new situations, it's different for me. I don't jump into new situations without weighing the pros and cons. This doesn't take very long, though. It takes about a few minutes for me to figure it out. However, my dominant Ti operates on auto-pilot. Even as I am in the process of doing something, Ti is still working. It doesn't turn off. Ever. Another thing is that while I can easily chill and be lazy, I do not like to be inactive for too long or else I get antsy. "Too long" can be defined as a few days or even a few hours. It depends on how much energy I've used and how much information I need to sort out in my mind. But Se is the function I can easily turn on and off at will. That's how I know it's auxiliary.


OK so you never do this being too impatient to sit and just start getting around somehow? That to me is a good way to pick up the details I need on the move and make sense of them. Easier than sitting and guessing..

When you say Ti is still working and doesn't ever turn off... is it like I described for myself in post #30 or is it constantly active thinking that you actually notice?

Yeah I also don't like to be inactive for long. Hm well, when I am actually resting, I'm not really sorting out information, that to me is not being inactive/lazy. I see it as actual mental work. Also, I usually sort out the information while acquiring it. Though sometimes it's more about retrospective analysis of situations when I'm able to to analyse them, this isn't always possible right away, I may need more information first to develop a better understanding to go off of. I either can analyse something right away or not. If not, I know that it's not possible, I feel the mental "wall" beyond which I cannot yet go.




Saturnian Devil said:


> As for my Ni and inferior Fe, my Ni development isn't as weak as with other ISTPs. I suppose this comes with the territory of E9 in general. I understand patterns and abstractions, but I don't exactly care for them. I'm more focused on the tangible, though I can tap into intuition if needed. Of course, while I tolerate abstractions and the non-concrete, too much of it will bore the hell out of me, and if I'm going to sit around and listen to it, I have to be able to apply the theory practically. That is how I know I'm not Ni-inferior lol.


Er, how is the Ni inferior different from this?

I understand them too (abstractions) and I do care for them, it's fascinating and inspiring stuff, but I would not be able to spend all day with it. It'd be too draining to be doubly introverted in this Ti/Ni mode even though it's kind of awesome too. 

I do prefer to apply whatever theory practically too, yep, that's when I feel at my best, otherwise, I just try to give myself intellectual challenges from time to time by reading up on and understanding abstract theory. Btw when I said fascinating and inspiring I meant the more spiritual/symbolical abstract side of Ni, not the version of abstraction of more technical patterns - if this makes sense - but that's still very cool too.

I developed the ability to do this stuff from age 18 with sporadic glimpses before it.

Why I said my Ni is pretty weak though is that in real life situations I hardly apply any of it beyond a basic level. I can have insights about a situation later after lots of analysis but that's it. It's not really under my control. 




Saturnian Devil said:


> Fe-inferior is a given, though. I get worn out when listening to people talking about feelings all the time, and while I am aware that this sounds rather mean, I do cringe a lot of the time whenever someone comes onto the ISTP subforum and posts a lot of mushy stuff. The same happens when a friend comes to me with an emotional problem. I immediately find the solution to the problem instead of hearing them out a lot of the time, because I'm focused on fixing the problem rather than dwelling on it.


I do have a bit higher tolerance than this.. I don't get worn out by emotional people doing drama, I just try to analyze it like any other input, lol. I don't really get emotional myself most of the time with these drama thingies, why do you get worn out by it, do you get too emotional? I only get like that if I allow myself to care enough to get really involved but that's really rare and definitely not with most people. That would be wearing me out faster, sure, but otherwise no, not at all. And yes, I try to find a solution like you describe, that's one of the reasons why I analyze it heh. 




Saturnian Devil said:


> As far as socializing, I'm a social ISTP. But, what sucks about that is that sometimes, people (mainly those who don't know me well) expect me to want to hang out all the time. I'm not gonna be doing that. There's no way I'm willing to give up my alone time just to go out with people unless it's worth my time. That's how I know that I'm introverted.


OK I don't know about this myself as I don't socialize often enough




Saturnian Devil said:


> But, yeah. About you, I don't know you too well and I've only seen you around here a few times, so I can't really say if you're Se or Ti dominant. However, like others have mentioned, when Ti and Se development are neck and neck, it's not always easy to tell unless you're looking at the inferior function. I think the best way to figure out what someone's inferior function is is by observing how they react in a given situation. For example, someone with inferior Fe wouldn't be expected to be super emotionally open and constantly talking about feelings. They're more inclined to ignore them, rationalize them, or keep them to themselves if they choose to acknowledge them.


Yeah that makes sense. I dunno about this function development thing btw, I don't remember developing my Se, it was always as it is now, but I remember Ti developing or was it the Ni, I'm not sure actually 


_(...Then Saturnian Devil replied to that and I reply to that in my first post in this thread.)_


4) Last relevant post in the other thread from me



Cinnamon83 said:


> Well he was an ENFP (...)


Hahaha, I guess I didn't have the luck (?) to spend that much time together with a real ENFP. I would probably shortcircuit most of these discussions very quickly. That or I'd argue heavily, e.g. with that politics stuff. If I was in a car where the driver frequently wanted to do this longer route bs, I'd just not tolerate it.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

@Saturnian Devil

Sorry I just noticed this got skipped & I was rerally interested in it if you can say anything about it: _"When you say Ti is still working and doesn't ever turn off... is it like I described for myself in post #30 or is it constantly active thinking that you actually notice?"_


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

Okay, I'm back on a computer. Was commuting. 



myst91 said:


> For me what doesn't fit in ISTP is that seemingly (from my pov) extreme apathy or indifference. I'm more.. excitable and care more about stuff. I don't relate to people in a direct fashion though, it is all done very indirectly. But I do need to be involved in that indirect way or I don't feel my life is complete. Maybe just well developed inferior Fe..? Not that I view it as any good, lol, so clearly I mean it only relatively.


I don't agree with the type descriptions, either, since those are stereotypical at best, so if that is what you mean, then I'd have to agree that extreme apathy or indifference doesn't apply to every single ISTP. To be honest, I'm not exactly what one would call apathetic, but I am emotionally detached from things that don't really matter to me. However, when it comes to personal hobbies, those are typically the moments where I can be excitable because I do care about those things. So, like you, I get excited about stuff more than people. With people, I can directly relate to them, but only if I've got something in common with them. Like an experience or something. 

Generally it seems like the extreme apathy and indifference is more of an ISTP type 5 trait. The ISTPs typing as Enneagram 7s, 8s, and 9s seem to tend toward the passionate side, though it's obviously not going to be the same kind of passion a feeler would show. I think ISTPs and ESTPs both are low-key and relaxed about their excitement, though an ESTP will likely be somewhat more open about the excitement while the ISTP is more likely to silently enjoy it.



> Does @_Cinnamon83_ relate? To 1) having to relate to people and to 2) the indirect fashion in which this happens?


I'd be interested in knowing if she does as well, so I'll keep my eyes peeled for her reply.




> OK... when I first had Ti-Ni loop quite a few years ago, I actually found it useful, I felt like I improved from it in areas, Ni mostly, of course. I never fully lost the connection to Se either though it did weaken for a while and I didn't take lightly to that... I just could not really accept that. Then later I had another Ti-Ni loop heavy period and that one, it sounds more like what you describe, whenever it was getting too much Ti-Ni I'd get restless in that exact same way you describe. And yes I was able to sit down pretty long and just think and think and actually enjoyed and wanted that.


See, small Ti-Ni loops aren't exactly bad in my opinion. Those can be helpful. However, I was talking about the really lengthy ones that last months to years. Those aren't good since it's not normal for an ISTP to completely bypass Se for extended periods of time. 

Here's a bit of a backstory: When I first joined this forum in 2013, I was in the middle of a Ti-Ni loop. It wasn't one of the short, several day long or week long loops. This loop had been going on for years. I'd been stuck on what I wanted to do with my life and didn't know what to do with myself, and because I knew I needed to figure my long term goals out soon, I was stressed out about it. Most of those days were spent speculating a lot of what-if scenarios. I also was not past my dad's mother's emotional abuse toward me during adolescence, either. "What if my great-grandparents die and I still don't have a job? What am I gonna do then? I'll be homeless." Basically a lot of anxiety and fear. This is one reason why I thought I was an Enneagram 5w6. Stressed out Enneagram 9s often mistype as 5s, after all.

Another thing about my Ti-Ni loop was that I was being unproductive, and I was pretty irrational at the time as a result. If someone said something to me on here that didn't make sense to me, I'd lose patience and snap at them even if they didn't deserve it. Simply put: I was so stressed out with my own situation that instead of finding a solution, I kept worrying when I should've been taking action. I was also quite a bitch to people. 

Anyway, Ti-Ni loops that are short-lived don't scare me. I can sit around for a few days or a few weeks and think about stuff, organizing recent experiences and trying to fit them into my mental framework. It's the long term ones that result in pointless anxiety and fear that I really don't want to deal with. Then again, I already have my life figured out (and several backup plans in case Plan A fails) so I'm probably not going to fall into a serious Ti-Ni loop for a while. That's what I meant when I gave my initial response on Ti-Ni loops, lol. 



> That's not exactly my default tbh. My default is more, I want to DO something with my understanding or whatever system I built in my head. Basically my Ti is not happy without Se by default. That sitting and thinking thing was never as enjoyable before that Ti-Ni period. Btw it's a pretty recent thing too.


I want to do stuff with my knowledge as well, and I am active in doing so. I may be contemplative, but generally speaking I am not idle. If there's something I want to do, I learn about it as much as I can and just_ do_ it. I don't like incompetence and that is one reason I learn first, act on what I learned thus far, and keep my mind open so that I can learn along the way.




> No it doesn't bother me either, I just usually need to actually DO something with the mental work sooner or later or I go crazy not doing anything with it.


That applies to both ESTPs and ISTPs, though. 



> I can shut out external distractions anytime I want to so I don't really have a problem doing it while acquiring the relevant information. I guess this is just variation on type


I should've been more specific on what I meant, but seeing as to how I'd typed up my reply this morning after just having woken up, it makes sense that you kinda misunderstood lol. That's on me.

See, I can multitask and I do it rather well. Listening to music while working on a college assignment isn't going to distract me, and it won't interrupt my thinking. That's not a problem. I can easily shut off Se if needed and focus on Ti, even if Ti is always running in the background. 

The problem for me is that sometimes, if I am in a group where there are a lot of people competing for my attention while I'm introspecting, I lose focus. This is one reason why I hang out in the library at school instead of in the student lounge. People can get in the way sometimes and that is sometimes irksome.



> As for the Se you mention, that seems a bit passive to me, I relate to it in a bit more active fashion... Basically what you listed is really really basic to me, I'm aware of those things on a basic level all the time. I hardly if ever fully disconnect from that awareness (and I don't like to). When I feel like I consciously notice Se because it's really "turned on" it's when I take immediate action, I love doing that. I'm really part of the environment interacting in it. Of course, I love doing it even more if I have a Ti system behind it.


That's because I only described the passive ways my Se manifests. I didn't include the active manifestations of my Se. Actively, my Se manifests when I'm working on something using my hands or participating in an activity I happen to really enjoy. I work with my hands a lot, and I do exercise, travel, and build things. And, obviously, I get pleasure from it. 

But the thing is: I switch from passive to active as needed. At home I am more passive: listening to music, finishing homework, reading, surfing the web, etc. Outdoors or when working on a hands-on project, I am more active. Also, I live in an urban environment where awareness of my physical surroundings is very important, so in cases where I'm commuting, my Se is engaged, but in a passive manner. I don't live in fear for my life, but I am cautious because it is only practical to be wary of surroundings when you're in Chicago. Better to be prepared in case some psycho tries to assault me so that I may revert from passive to active when it becomes time to defend myself.





> Before that last Ti-Ni period I never had the experience that thinking would stop me from action just because I'm thinking. Then that got familiar to me in that period, yeah, but it is not really something that I find to be my default way of being.* I don't know, it's like priorities of Ti and Se would conflict sometimes.* That was not an entirely pleasant thing, tbh.


I can understand that. Especially if both Ti and Se are equally developed. To be honest though, I think it's really about balance. Too much thinking and no action = trouble. Likewise, too much action and no thinking = trouble. But if acting and thinking are balanced and used in a healthy manner, it's really not all that bad. I only say this because in an xSTP, Ti still needs Se because they balance each other out. I can't imagine my life without Ti or Se. They are equally important to me even if Ti _is_ my default function.





> I do get the AHA! moments but I'd like to compare with yours to see how profound mine are, lol. Can you give me a good typical example of these ISTP AHA! moments?


Sure. This is pretty much regarding Ni, though. This is a general example: Sometimes I'll have a bad feeling about something. A person's motives. The outcome of an experience. However, I'm still a bit weary, so I try to go along with things and see what happens next. There are times where I don't always trust that gut feeling, though, so I dismiss it. This isn't always the case, though. Eventually, something happens and I'm just like, "Yep, I knew it."

A more specific example (and this is anecdotal btw): 

I have a friend. Not sure of her type, but I do know she is a feeler. Anyway, she is probably one of the nicest people I know, yet incredibly naive about peoples' motives. This sometimes frustrates me, as she is forever getting into a situation where she ends up hurt somehow, only to cry about it later. Situations I've never even been in because I am always several steps ahead. 

So, the other day, she was complaining to me about her boyfriend. She was telling me that she loves him, but that she is unhappy with him. Which is fair, because sometimes relationships can be tricky and as we both know, they take a lot of work from both parties in order to work. Anyway, this boyfriend of hers is involved in a gang and she knows it. She complains about what he does, and instead of leaving him and finding a better man, she sticks to him. 

But just as quickly as she complains about her boyfriend and what he does, she's suddenly telling me she's happy with him and that she loves him. You know the deal. But in the back of my mind, I'm just like, "She says that now, but she'll be coming to me crying again once he leaves her to run the streets of Chicago with his boys." 

And, sure enough, she comes to me when it happens. This is one of those Aha! moments. 

Another specific moment would be me knowing exactly what someone's motives are. When it comes to men, especially. I can usually tell which ones just want to have casual sex and which ones want a serious relationship. Of course, this may seem general since most women can tell, but for me, it's different because unlike other women, I see right into these men and know what their motives are within only a few seconds of talking to them. Most women don't realize this until after a few dates, or until it's already too late and they've been hurt.

I can provide more examples of how my Aha! moments manifest, but these are just a few. 




> I probably do suck at those patterns but it's all relative. You probably also suck at it compared to the Ni doms :tongue:


Yep, this is a fair point. Because it is relative. But the same could be said about Fe because neither an ISTP or an ESTP will be exactly like someone who is Fe dominant. However, I do think Enneagram can influence how both Ni and Fe manifest in people of those two specific types.



> I do spend a lot of time sometimes trying to sort out those patterns and I do not really need outside help on the Ni itself to get somewhere but sometimes a bit of Ni with Fe input does speed up things, especially the Fe part.


I'm an E9 so naturally I can pick up on patterns and see the root of things a bit faster than my E5 ISTP boyfriend can. It's more subconscious a lot of the time, and it was for a while. Recently I've been able to notice that it's been developing and it's a little more obvious. I don't really need help sorting patterns, though. While I understand them, I just don't know how to explain them a lot of the time. It's just there, kind of like an emotion.



> Though this only applies to the nontechnical Ni topics, technical topics I absolutely don't need outside help with, Fe is irrelevant there.


That makes sense. With technical topics, I think it depends for me. If it's something I don't really know or understand, I'll give it a shot and try to figure it out on my own, but sometimes I'll ask one of my friends for their insight. You know, just to see if my gut instincts are correct or if I need to go a different direction. Sometimes the clarification and guidance can be useful.



> I'm friendlier than that default ISTP description for sure, unless I feel that I am not included in the group, which I definitely will not initiate on my own as my Fe sucks as hell.


The default ISTP description just makes us all sound like sociopaths in my opinion. Which is pretty unfair, seeing as some of the ISTPs I know on this forum are really not that bad once you get to know them. A bit abrasive? Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that since tact isn't exactly our thing, but I wouldn't say we lack a heart. It's more that we don't always know how to show it. 

However, I know what you mean. If I'm not included in a group, I probably won't feel bad unless I know one of my friends in the group are intentionally snubbing me. Except I don't feel bad, per se. I actually find myself feeling a bit angry. And, of course, I let the person know that what they did bothered me. I won't just go off on them at first. Rather take the peaceful approach first in these kinds of situations. But if it's a group in which I don't know any of the people in it, I won't have an emotional reaction. I'll find something else to do or just stick around and observe. 



> Just maybe not as much as the Fe in typical ISTP descriptions. Maybe people who know me from a distance would disagree lol. My close friends (I have two, kinda yeah, close friends) both think my Fe is better than ISTP's Fe and they are unsure if I'm ESTP maybe but everyone else thinks I'm I>E (with Ti over Te so it is ISTP, just the J/P is variable, depending on who I ask).


Pretty much goes back to what I said about how the typical ISTP description makes us sound like sociopathic robots lol. But I do think it depends on the Enneagram a bit, how an ISTP or ESTP comes off. My boyfriend is also an ISTP, and he comes across as more serious than me, and it's because he is an E5. He's more cerebral and to certain types of people, this is clearly off-putting. It can come across as cold, distant, and mean. But to those who know him well (especially me), we know he's really one of the nicest people out there. 

See, I grew up around feelers and SJs. Emotions everywhere, and while I understood the basic reasons behind the reaction, I just didn't feel the same way they did if something bothered them. So, compared to my relatives, I am more reserved in the emotional department. I don't wear my heart on my sleeve, so to speak. Those who know me from a distance probably think I'm a bitch, especially IRL. I've had a few people tell me that they were intimidated by me and that they first had a negative impression of me because of the simple fact that I was blunt, and didn't care much to seek people out. They didn't realize that I wasn't trying to be mean, but rather being honest and keeping to myself because I don't like to be in the way. But, since they know me better, they pretty much get it and don't take it to heart. My close friends love me, though, so.







> So when you look at some photo, can you analyse it in a Ni fashion? I absolutely cannot. This is not an understatement. I think it is cool that the Ni doms can do it, especially INFJs, and with such ease. When I look, I just see Se with some Ti, nothing else


I can't always do that. Something has to be extremely obvious for me to immediately notice it. For example, abstract art has meaning. I originally didn't think it did because of how abstract art looks, but upon taking Art History courses in college, I learned that the paintings and images represented things, emotions, ideas, etc. 

But with more literal art forms, I can tell what's going on if there are enough context clues. For example, some of the Rococo paintings feature seductive looking women. It doesn't take much for me to figure out that there are sexual connotations in those paintings. 

So, yeah. Things have to be obvious for me to really know what's going on, because otherwise I'll just be like, "Okay..."



> Why does the abstract stuff mostly bore you? I understand you prefer the tangible but did you never find the Ni way of thinking cool?


I'll be more specific. Things I consider abstract that bore me are political theorizing that doesn't come to fruition (for obvious reasons), and I also find philosophy very boring. Feminism, anti-feminism, existentialism, etc. I don't care about it. Rather just do my own thing and move on. 

Now, astrology and that sort of thing won't necessarily bore me. I can spend hours reading that stuff, and I'll enjoy it, but I have to take a break from it because I'll get a headache if I don't. Books that contain too many metaphors and not enough literal, concrete language will bore me as well. This is one reason I couldn't read Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell. 

I'll play around with patterns and see how it looks in a composition, and this won't bore me because I'm still engaging my Se and Ti while doing so. So, when it comes to art, I can tolerate the abstract symbolism and can create it. I just won't always want to, mainly because I prefer realism in my artwork.



> Either in yourself or in others. I find it really awesome both the traces of Ni in me and full-on Ni in others. Did I get this right, you are good at it but it still bores you? This is where I'm a bit hung up as to why that would be so for you. I also do not want to deal with it all day but it doesn't bore me. How are ESTPs with that, bored too? Even more bored?


You kinda misunderstood what I meant but that's my fault for not being specific enough. It's all good, though. 

It depends on what it is. I'm better at dealing with some abstract things than others, honestly. However, I do know that if I apply myself, I can be very good at dealing with the abstract, but I don't always want to. I also know that it'll take me a while longer than an Ni-dom to figure it all out right away. I do like Ni-doms for this reason: I learn from them. They figure this shit out so effortlessly while I still get it but can't always get it on paper unless it's a drawing. -.-



> I know what you mean about that type of emotional manipulation - I absolutely am against it.


Yeah, it's a pet peeve of mine. 



> Hmm, though where I don't relate to you is that I'm usually not worried about people's emotions not making perfect logical sense unless I am involved with them. If I'm not involved with them then the emotions are not going to affect me outside practical concerns with which I can deal with in other ways without having to understand the emotions; but if I'm involved with those people, I need to understand their emotions or I am going to be completely lost, feel like I'm not in control, which to me is a terrible thing. So how I make sense of the emotions is by watching the entire situations, all details that can be relevant, I will eventually match them up to get a complete logical picture inside which I can place the emotional reactions and other confusing behavioural elements from the person, I also directly track the emotions of the person in terms of timing; for the latter I will also hear out the person, so yes I need them to be able to tell me / show me / express in some way very explicitly when they feel something and what exactly the emotion is as that facilitates that process of understanding a lot. ...Of course if the situation is already familiar, I don't have to analyse everything, I can apply what I already understood.


I'm capable of the above exactly as you described but I find that how I respond to their emotional problem depends on how important the person is to me. If they're important to me, yes, I'm going to want to know everything (even if I prefer to be calm and collected) so that I can figure it out. But if they're not important to me, I may feel a bit of sympathy, but I won't feel _empathy_ unless I've already been in the same boat. Even still, I don't know the person so I can't really care too much. A good example of what I mean is how I can't empathize with a rape victim because I've never been raped. But I can feel bad, though. It just won't be intense and I'll be over it within seconds. Another example is how people get all sad when a celebrity dies. I can't grieve or feel sad for someone I didn't know. And seeing as I don't worship humans, I'd just accept they're dead and move on. 

I do know how to read peoples' feelings and get a basic understanding of why they feel a certain way, but what I mean when I say it doesn't make logical sense to me is that the way _they_ react isn't how_ I _would react. 

Example: A kid is crying because he can't find his mom. I know he's scared and I would be scared, too. Except I wouldn't be crying because I know crying wouldn't solve anything. When I was a kid, I didn't cry much. Even if I was sad. 

Does that make more sense now? I was on my phone when I first typed out the former response and looking back, it's clear that I was still somewhat half-asleep. Let me know if you need more examples.



> Oh and for the people who I don't care about, I just in general know that their emotions arise from some reaction that they've had to some situation due to whatever weird ways of thinking they have but I don't particularly care to try and understand what ways of thinking those are. In this sense though, all emotions have a logical explanation, an actual cause for them, just sometimes that cause may be hard to discover. It's no real mystery I just don't care to get into it.


Same. I don't really care about figuring out why they feel, either. I could be walking down the street minding my own business, and see a couple. I'll notice how they look, but I won't care. It's just passive observation. If they're happy, great. That's awesome. But if they're sad, it's not my job to comfort them. That's their problem and it's none of my business lol.



> I deal with my own emotions in the same way. I usually know why I feel what I feel, this is easy as it's usually immediate angry reactions or other similar reactions to a situation. The non-angry type of emotions I used to be completely clueless about, I've been learning though. Slowly for sure. I just get surprised every time I get to understand something as to how clueless I actually am, lol.


I'm pretty aware of my emotional state, yeah. If I'm upset about something, I usually say so and simply state that I need some time to sort out the problem so I can fix whatever it is. My positive emotions I don't really have a problem expressing. If I'm happy, I may not be smiling, but I'll be in a good mood and be aware of it. Same as when I'm angry. I may not be frowning but on the inside I'll be aware of the storm that's brewing and find a way to tame it because I don't want to explode. It's the emotions like sadness, fear, and affection that I still need to work on. Affection is easier with my SO, though. He's the only person who sees that side of me that not even my close friends get to. I also tend to show affection via actions rather than words, too. 

Another thing I am guilty of is not talking to people about my feelings when I probably should. I've never been one to wear my heart on my sleeve. Instead I find it easier to write them down in a journal and go back to it later to try and analyze why I felt a certain way.



> I think this fits with Fe inferior really but I'm curious about your thoughts as you surely know more about ISTPs. And of course also curious about how you see my Ni. If you see my Ni as inferior instead, that's fine too, just let me know your reasoning.


I'll admit that the more I talk to you the more I'm having difficulty in figuring out if you're ISTP or ESTP. Mainly it's because your Ti and Se are neck and neck. You also seem to have healthy Fe. 

Side note: there are ISTPs who do have healthy Fe due to either Enneagram or their upbringing. Sometimes life will throw an experience at you that pretty much forces you to mature a little faster than is expected, and with some of the more emotionally open ISTPs, this is usually the case if they're young (since childhood adversity does change you on a grand scale). Some of the ISTPs on the ISTP subforum (the ones who were already here when I first joined) consider me to be one of them since I've gone through some pretty fucked up shit growing up, but they know I'm not ESTP.

You also use a bit of abstract language here and there, but it's still easy to get where you're coming from. I think I'd have to observe you in person to _really_ get an idea. For the most part, though, initially I thought you _could_ be ESTP but it's possible that you're ISTP. considering you've been taking those tests on Keys2Cognition. Like we've agreed on before, those tests are weird as hell. >.>







> There I definitely relate more to the ESTP over the ISTP, though until age 13 I was totally ISTP with this. Whatever that means. At 13, I got a bit of Fe come up. I had zero Fe before that. (Not an exaggeration. To be more specific, I maybe had a little bit of Fe focus sporadically with some friends but otherwise not at all.)


I think that with some of the younger ISTPs, either they are really emotional or not emotional at all. Too young to have full control of those outbursts we're prone to having during our younger years. Especially in high stress environments. The main emotions I showed growing up were anger, frustration, and, in rare cases, happiness. Pretty generic, basic emotions. Sadness I never showed because I internalized it. However when I was younger, I wasn't even aware of what I was feeling. It's only now that I'm older than I have a general idea of that stuff.



> I don't always care though, when I'm performing some task, I definitely don't have any focus on Fe. If I'm just with people without any task going on, I have more of a focus on it where I care a little bit in the fashion you describe ESTPs. That is, if I'm trying to feel involved with them. If not, then of course not.


The only time I subconsciously focus on Fe when working on a task is at school, because of my grades and reputation. I'm one of the best students so I know that in order to keep that up, I can't really afford to be seen as incompetent because that'll just be embarrassing. But that's more about me not wanting to be incompetent and wanting to be good at something than caring about what the professors or other students in the art community think of me as an individual. I don't care if they think I suck or not, since that's their opinion. They're entitled to think whatever they want. 

But, outside of that, I don't really care much. I realize this sounds more like a 9w1 thing, my goal is power over my own life and not having to rely on people. It's not about perfectionism.






> Hm, that sounds like a chore, just doing it because you have to maintain friendships? Do you not enjoy it, is it not often spontaneous fun?


Not at all what I meant. That statement was in regards to my extroverted, super social friends who always want to hang out. I don't always want to be with them, even if I really do enjoy their company when we do hang out. In order for me to be able to get along with an extroverted, very social person with a lot of energy, I have to go out of my way to put in effort to sustain the friendship by occasionally hanging out with them because I value them. I just can't do it all the time because I lose energy. 

With my more introverted friends, it's different. I can go days or months without seeing them and we're fine. I don't intrude on their lives though I do check up on them here and there to make sure they're okay and vice versa.



> I think if I was to only meet a friend just to maintain the whole relationship, I would not view it as a true friendship. No, I don't have issues with commitment and never did, but I think there needs to be an actual connection that both parties actually enjoy for the most part... no it doesn't mean it's always easy times. But to me it sounded weird that you'd meet them just out of obligation.


If I didn't like someone, I wouldn't even bother to hang out with them in the first place. If I'm willing to put in the effort to see someone, it's obviously because I value them. It's a matter of not wanting to be bothered with socializing all the time. That's something a lot of extroverted people I know IRL don't understand. I know a few people who assumed the friendship was over because I didn't want to hang out with them every single day when in reality I just needed some downtime to recharge so that I could enjoy myself next time I saw them.



> I think I like seeing people every day. The question is, how much time I actually tolerate without getting exhausted  But I'm sure it can be tolerated everyday at least in a small dose.


You've mentioned before that you don't go out to socialize much to really know how this would turn out for you, but it's probably worth trying out if you get the opportunity. 

Personally, I find it easier to be more social on the internet without any pressure because I'm in control of when I want to talk to someone. It's one of the main reasons I keep a Facebook account and spend time on this site to begin with. It's not difficult for me to be social in person, either, but I like hanging out in smaller groups instead of crowds since it is more low-key. I just get really tired afterwards, though. Especially if I've been with them for more than 5 hours. I can't help it; I lose energy from being around people in person than online.






> Well as I said it might be Ti with Ni and not just simply Ti. If that makes sense. Ti on its own, I don't remember that developing, just like I don't remember with Se. When did Se start to develop for you and what did it look like?


Se started developing by the time I was 13, albeit very slowly. I was medicated for most of my life due to having lived with a narcissistic grandmother during high school (she had something to hide so she made up stories about me to a shrink and I was medicated to keep the secret, basically) so my Se was underdeveloped. Felt like a zombie mostly. And I do recall being unhappy about not being able to go out and explore the world outside my bedroom. However when I finally moved away, my Se started developing a lot faster. My sense of fashion had improved dramatically, and I'd learned how to decorate my bedroom and not make it look ugly. I'd also learned how to use certain tools around the house and would always fix things. Setting up furniture without looking at the manual was a bonus, though that was more Ti than everything. 

I think part of this had to do with my sudden freedom to explore my surroundings without having a micromanaging narcissist hovering over my shoulder every time I tried to do something that made me happy.



> I was also a quiet kid. I would just observe other kids and engage a lot with the physical environment on my own.* I would sometimes tell the kids when I thought there were stupid* and why; and I taught them basic mathematics, lol yup. All that was already going on in kindergarten :laughing:


Guilty of what's in bold. Especially a thing I did in high school. It's one of the reasons why the popular girls hated me. I didn't have time for their petty bullshit and even humiliated them a few times by pointing out their logical inaccuracies. I learned to read when I was 3, actually. But I didn't start talking until I was 6. Teachers and some of my relatives thought this was odd, and they assumed I didn't know how to talk and that I didn't understand them. Thing is, I did understand and know how to speak. I just didn't care to talk much. I've always been very quiet and observant, only to take action if something of interest caught my attention.



> Then in school, starting from middle school, I would argue with teachers whenever I disagreed on things which um, yeah, happened pretty often.. I also remember that even in first grade I argued with other kids by leaning on my own logic. I thought some things were fair because of certain logical reasoning I had for it and then I tried to enforce that reasoning whenever I wanted something from the kids.  The same with the teachers too, I usually wanted something to happen, well or something just didn't make sense to me. Other than the arguing I was still a quiet kid engaging with stuff primarily on my own. I guess I didn't change too much there. :shrug
> 
> What do you think about that?


I argued with a few teachers, too. Mainly the really domineering, super strict, uptight ones who wanted me to do things their way without giving me room to figure it out on my own. I have never liked the traditional school environment because there is little room for exploration and improvisation. It's always "Do this like this, do this like that." So, even though I still got good grades, I had a bit of resentment toward the teachers. 

However, I did unleash a lot of the resentment during PE. _That_ was my favorite part of the day. Because I didn't have to sit around and do monotonous assignments anymore and be bored inside a classroom anymore. It felt like freedom.

That was in elementary and high school, though. I'm in college now and I don't really have a problem with it. The only complaints I have are the heavy amounts of homework and the fact that my professors expect a lot from me (comes with the territory of being in the top 5 percent) that it gets stressful. 




> Final note for now: I do have an idea in terms of my typing (that is, whether it is ISTP or ESTP). I'd like to see what ISTPs (or ESTPs etc, anyone can chime in!) say first about my type though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that the results on this particular test has a major factor: your mood when you took the test. Unless there is a glitch in the test itself. 

I always get ISTP on that and many other types of tests, but only once have I gotten ESTP on this one. I could be wrong, but it looks like you might be an ISTP based on this one alone since Fe is still less developed than Ni. However, if you always got ESTP, then maybe that's the best bet.


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

myst91 said:


> @_Saturnian Devil_
> 
> Sorry I just noticed this got skipped & I was rerally interested in it if you can say anything about it: _"When you say Ti is still working and doesn't ever turn off... is it like I described for myself in post #30 or is it constantly active thinking that you actually notice?"_


I haven't read the post you speak of yet, but if you could provide a link to it that'd be great. I'll try to answer as best as I can.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

myst91 said:


> For me what doesn't fit in ISTP is that seemingly (from my pov) extreme apathy or indifference. I'm more.. excitable and care more about stuff. I don't relate to people in a direct fashion though, it is all done very indirectly. But I do need to be involved in that indirect way or I don't feel my life is complete. Maybe just well developed inferior Fe..? Not that I view it as any good, lol, so clearly I mean it only relatively.
> 
> Does @Cinnamon83 relate? To 1) having to relate to people and to 2) the indirect fashion in which this happens?


I cant distinguish my PTSD from whether I am apathetic or its a defense mechanism. So I am not sure how much help I would be there. What I can say tho is that I think my Fe is more developed then inferior Fe, because I have always always whether when I was typing as INTP or ISTP have always thought the sort of apathy displayed often in those sections was childish deflection of emotions. There is a deep part of me that very much is in touch with my Fe. BUT its not displayed outwardly much at all. I very likely looked like an ESTP all the way on up until about 20ish. I went thru a very very traumatic time then my eldest daughters dad was strung out on drugs and I was trying to regroup and get my life in order. The amount of soul sucking that took place tho in my life at that time I was never left the same. He was a very screwed up ESFP and this was long ago. But it very much effected me. I probably very likely was ESTP and he sucked my ego out of me. After that I dont think I ever felt right being as authentic and genuine as I always had been with everyone up until that point because it was exploited and used against me. My youngest daughters dad I married a few years later he too was an extrovert and I think my being young then still did not recognize how damaged I was from the prior relationship and very much allowed myself to be more in the shadows. So very much lived more like an ISTP thru out all my 20s.

Anyone who knows me from 22+ would say I am an introvert with an extremely wild wild side that can peek out.

I did get off subject a bit but the point was I have a very hard time distinguishing between my lack of enthusiasm as in if its apathy or disassociation issues. I lean more towards that I am not that apathetic but in a self preserving mode. I dont like to get overly happy or excited because I always wait for the bottom to fall out. 

I do think tho that I have more sophisticated Fe. The reason I say it is because of how much I can evaluate group dynamics and be dead on in so much. (Not just my confirmation but many others too). I can read alot of people like a book and I think alot of its Fe. 



> So when you look at some photo, can you analyse it in a Ni fashion? I absolutely cannot. This is not an understatement. I think it is cool that the Ni doms can do it, especially INFJs, and with such ease. When I look, I just see Se with some Ti, nothing else
> 
> Why does the abstract stuff mostly bore you? I understand you prefer the tangible but did you never find the Ni way of thinking cool? Either in yourself or in others. I find it really awesome both the traces of Ni in me and full-on Ni in others. Did I get this right, you are good at it but it still bores you? This is where I'm a bit hung up as to why that would be so for you. I also do not want to deal with it all day but it doesn't bore me. How are ESTPs with that, bored too? Even more bored?


Could you clarify what you meant here... and maybe I could answer better?


> So when you look at some photo, can you analyse it in a Ni fashion? I absolutely cannot. This is not an understatement. I think it is cool that the Ni doms can do it, especially INFJs, and with such ease. When I look, I just see Se with some Ti, nothing else


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Saturnian Devil said:


> I haven't read the post you speak of yet, but if you could provide a link to it that'd be great. I'll try to answer as best as I can.


Thanks  I don't have time to post much now but I'll give you that link to post #30: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ntp-istp-types-post22732434.html#post22732434


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

myst91 said:


> Thanks  I don't have time to post much now but I'll give you that link to post #30: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ntp-istp-types-post22732434.html#post22732434



No worries. Take as much time as you need. 

Thanks for the link, firstly. Appreciated. 

Anyway, yeah. It's about the same for me. I notice Se more, but Ti isn't always easy for me to pick up on unless I'm really introspecting or someone points out that I look like I'm pissed or in really deep thought. People have said that while I have an overal relaxed vibe, I still have this really intense stare, so I know it's that "ISTP glare" everyone talks about. The one that makes us look angry when we're not.

Detached focus is a pretty good way of putting it, though.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Cinnamon83 said:


> I cant distinguish my PTSD from whether I am apathetic or its a defense mechanism. So I am not sure how much help I would be there.


Ah.. can you think back before you had the PTSD? That would answer the question here. Looks like you answer it below anyway 




> What I can say tho is that I think my Fe is more developed then inferior Fe, because I have always always whether when I was typing as INTP or ISTP have always thought the sort of apathy displayed often in those sections was childish deflection of emotions. There is a deep part of me that very much is in touch with my Fe.


Hm I'm not sure I'd call it "childish deflection of emotions". Can you give me your reasoning on that? Why you see it as such. I see it differently, it's more like, I think it seems unnatural. As for your last sentence, I'm not sure how much I can relate to that myself. Can you say more on this?




> BUT its not displayed outwardly much at all. I very likely looked like an ESTP all the way on up until about 20ish.


Then you are ESTP no problem, heh. I don't think I ever looked like a stereotypical ESTP. For short times at best sporadically which can fit ISTP too




> I went thru a very very traumatic time then my eldest daughters dad was strung out on drugs and I was trying to regroup and get my life in order. The amount of soul sucking that took place tho in my life at that time I was never left the same. He was a very screwed up ESFP and this was long ago. But it very much effected me. I probably very likely was ESTP and he sucked my ego out of me. After that I dont think I ever felt right being as authentic and genuine as I always had been with everyone up until that point because it was exploited and used against me.


I see... My way of being wasn't used against me like this but I get what you mean by not being yourself without a problem, I also had such periods. But the being myself mode, isn't stereotypical ESTP either.




> My youngest daughters dad I married a few years later he too was an extrovert and I think my being young then still did not recognize how damaged I was from the prior relationship and very much allowed myself to be more in the shadows. So very much lived more like an ISTP thru out all my 20s.


Yeah I had this too about allowing myself to be "in the shadows" more than by default. Though a better wording for that would be "withdrawn" which then resulted in that. Did this bother you much?




> Anyone who knows me from 22+ would say I am an introvert with an extremely wild wild side that can peek out.


That sounds like me :tongue:




> I did get off subject a bit but the point was I have a very hard time distinguishing between my lack of enthusiasm as in if its apathy or disassociation issues. I lean more towards that I am not that apathetic but in a self preserving mode. I dont like to get overly happy or excited because I always wait for the bottom to fall out.


Yes I understand you, I think I know about that dissociation myself. 




> I do think tho that I have more sophisticated Fe. The reason I say it is because of how much I can evaluate group dynamics and be dead on in so much. (Not just my confirmation but many others too). I can read alot of people like a book and I think alot of its Fe.


OK I don't relate to that :sad: 




> Could you clarify what you meant here... and maybe I could answer better?


The photo thing? When I look at something I see what can be directly sensed and I see some logical map of things too. But the Ni symbolical ideas, none of those come up as associations. I don't associate to anything at all. Does this clarify? Let me know.


Also, my original question about whether you have this need about being involved with people - in a direct or a more indirect way?


----------



## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Saturnian Devil said:


> I don't agree with the type descriptions, either, since those are stereotypical at best, so if that is what you mean, then I'd have to agree that extreme apathy or indifference doesn't apply to every single ISTP. To be honest, I'm not exactly what one would call apathetic, but I am emotionally detached from things that don't really matter to me. However, when it comes to personal hobbies, those are typically the moments where I can be excitable because I do care about those things. So, like you, I get excited about stuff more than people. With people, I can directly relate to them, but only if I've got something in common with them. Like an experience or something.


I'm not really into stereotypes but I think it reflects something about how Fe is treated by ISTP, yeah?.. And I don't relate to that entirely or I just misinterpreted something. I'm detached like you describe it, I can however be excitable about my projects, goals and some people alike. When I said I don't relate to people too directly I meant I don't get so involved with them like some other people seem to but I still need to be involved with them in some way, by doing something that helps them too, by being engaged in competition against them, etc. Do you see what I mean here? And, do you relate to this?




> Generally it seems like the extreme apathy and indifference is more of an ISTP type 5 trait. The ISTPs typing as Enneagram 7s, 8s, and 9s seem to tend toward the passionate side, though it's obviously not going to be the same kind of passion a feeler would show. I think ISTPs and ESTPs both are low-key and relaxed about their excitement, though an ESTP will likely be somewhat more open about the excitement while the ISTP is more likely to silently enjoy it.


Well I type as an E8. With a clear 7 wing. Because I had to account for the 7 thingie somehow and 5 is already in my tritype.  Is ISTP 8 a common thing?

So, the excitement thing... I can be pretty open about it in some moments without noticing. But other people notice and comment on it 




> See, small Ti-Ni loops aren't exactly bad in my opinion. Those can be helpful. However, I was talking about the really lengthy ones that last months to years. Those aren't good since it's not normal for an ISTP to completely bypass Se for extended periods of time.


Well both of these Ti-Ni loops were for an extended time. I don't have the small ones you talk about. As I said, I'm not exactly the type to just sit and think by default. I do not need it either. As I explained, I can arrange things mentally right on the spot or later if an insight comes later but that needs more experience, data, whatever. Otherwise I get a mental wall instantly.

So yeah, I don't sit&think. If I'm at the computer sitting I'm still doing something, like, talking on chat, on this forum , or doing some project. Or I can read some easy fiction. Or I can be reading something that I need to understand and learn and then I do think a lot about it to process it while reading. But it's naturally intertwined with the reading, I don't explicitly stop to completely tune out into my own head. Or if I just think without being engaged with anything else then that's because I have to wait for something so I need to kill the time and if I have nothing else to spend the time with, I'll be thinking about my goals then.

As you can see, I don't sit the sake of pure reflection alone. Unless you mean the reading up and talking to people while analysing counts into it. Because then yes I do it a lot. 

But to be completely alone and not even read, just think being totally deeply inside my head, disconnected from the environment, that is not my favourite way of spending time by default except after entering that second Ti-Ni loop thingie. Even in the first Ti-Ni loop period it was not my favourite.. sure I liked doing it somewhat but it was not *better* than taking action. In the second loop, it was actually *preferred*. Make sense?




> Here's a bit of a backstory: When I first joined this forum in 2013, I was in the middle of a Ti-Ni loop. It wasn't one of the short, several day long or week long loops. This loop had been going on for years. I'd been stuck on what I wanted to do with my life and didn't know what to do with myself, and because I knew I needed to figure my long term goals out soon, I was stressed out about it. Most of those days were spent speculating a lot of what-if scenarios. I also was not past my dad's mother's emotional abuse toward me during adolescence, either. "What if my great-grandparents die and I still don't have a job? What am I gonna do then? I'll be homeless." Basically a lot of anxiety and fear. This is one reason why I thought I was an Enneagram 5w6. Stressed out Enneagram 9s often mistype as 5s, after all.


Oh.. I never had that in either of my Ti-Ni loops. I don't really like to speculate whatif's, what's the point. I prefer to think up a course of action and just do that. I don't really focus on stress either. Whatever, idk if these points are type related. Maybe enneagram. I'm definitely not a 9 




> Another thing about my Ti-Ni loop was that I was being unproductive, and I was pretty irrational at the time as a result. If someone said something to me on here that didn't make sense to me, I'd lose patience and snap at them even if they didn't deserve it. Simply put: I was so stressed out with my own situation that instead of finding a solution, I kept worrying when I should've been taking action. I was also quite a bitch to people.


Hmm well I was pretty productive in the first loop. Not really in the second one, but I hated that. I do that a lot about snapping at people who say bs but this doesn't depend on the loops for me, I always get irritated easily. More ESTP than ISTP there?




> Anyway, Ti-Ni loops that are short-lived don't scare me. I can sit around for a few days or a few weeks and think about stuff, organizing recent experiences and trying to fit them into my mental framework. It's the long term ones that result in pointless anxiety and fear that I really don't want to deal with. Then again, I already have my life figured out (and several backup plans in case Plan A fails) so I'm probably not going to fall into a serious Ti-Ni loop for a while. That's what I meant when I gave my initial response on Ti-Ni loops, lol.


Cool with your whole life figured out. I don't think 50 years ahead  Again, I would definitely not have the patience to sit and figure out all details like that. Just the outline of what I want, that's ok. Did you get more detailed than that?


I think we definitely deal differently with processing experiences and I already described how I do it - I can either immediately understand or not and if not, something else will have to come up later before I can analyse it. Do you analyse it anyway? How do you do this? I think with most experiences I don't have the need to separately analyse unless they are really not making sense by just looking at them. Most stuff is obvious to me by just looking.




> I want to do stuff with my knowledge as well, and I am active in doing so. I may be contemplative, but generally speaking I am not idle. If there's something I want to do, I learn about it as much as I can and just_ do_ it. I don't like incompetence and that is one reason I learn first, act on what I learned thus far, and keep my mind open so that I can learn along the way.


Well a difference for sure is that I don't worry about incompetence. I'm more impatient than you so I can just start and figure it out while on the move. Again maybe an enneagram difference. Also what I said about being contemplative... I don't do it so much on my own. I think -outside that 2nd Ti-Ni loop- it just kind of drains me to think too long because by that point I do not have enough understanding to go by or not enough information to analyse so I would have to get speculative instead. Which I don't really like doing. And when I do have enough of an understanding then I make very quick judgments so again, I don't need to do this sit and think thingie much.

You could sum this up, as, I learn as I go. I'll give you an example of how this happens.. when I was learning sports training theory.. I would go out and try to train then I would analyse the data during the training by just looking at it and later at home and I would read up on the theory and understand while reading. Then go out again and try to apply that. See if it worked. And so on. With an insight/AHA moment coming up sporadically throughout all this. Things would click in place here and there neatly. Over time I finally had a complete understanding. Which progressed from an originally really inflexible understanding to one that was a neater higher level understanding and applicable in a really flexible way. During the whole process I would never just sit and contemplate much. Unless I was forced to wait somewhere. Then yes I would think about this to kill the time.




> See, I can multitask and I do it rather well. Listening to music while working on a college assignment isn't going to distract me, and it won't interrupt my thinking. That's not a problem. I can easily shut off Se if needed and focus on Ti, even if Ti is always running in the background.


Uh.. pretty sure I don't multitask like you. I don't listen to music while doing something else, for sure. Just a comment, I don't think it matters that much for type?




> The problem for me is that sometimes, if I am in a group where there are a lot of people competing for my attention while I'm introspecting, I lose focus. This is one reason why I hang out in the library at school instead of in the student lounge. People can get in the way sometimes and that is sometimes irksome.


I see, well I can shut out people related distractions too just fine




> That's because I only described the passive ways my Se manifests. I didn't include the active manifestations of my Se. Actively, my Se manifests when I'm working on something using my hands or participating in an activity I happen to really enjoy. I work with my hands a lot, and I do exercise, travel, and build things. And, obviously, I get pleasure from it.


OK but what you described as the passive side of your Se, I don't experience it as Se turning "on". It's always there for me as part of a basic awareness of the environment. If I were to notice things in the way you described it, feeling like coming out of my head and Se turning "on", that would mean I'm in a very bad place in my life  I was like that in the second Ti-Ni loop sometimes though. I do not find it's natural for me to be that out of touch with Se :sad:

So I do not relate to the way you described your Se with that. Do you see what I mean? Or did I misinterpret you? Do you have that default awareness of environment that I spoke of above? From which these things should not "jump out" of because they are already *part* of the awareness.

If they were to "jump out" like this it would mean I truly disconnected from that awareness, and that is not something I like, at all. So it's like, Se is always "on" in the sense you defined it. Just emphasizing it again, so I can see if you relate here or not, it seems like an important difference if not. 




> But the thing is: I switch from passive to active as needed. At home I am more passive: listening to music, finishing homework, reading, surfing the web, etc. Outdoors or when working on a hands-on project, I am more active. Also, I live in an urban environment where awareness of my physical surroundings is very important, so in cases where I'm commuting, my Se is engaged, but in a passive manner. I don't live in fear for my life, but I am cautious because it is only practical to be wary of surroundings when you're in Chicago. Better to be prepared in case some psycho tries to assault me so that I may revert from passive to active when it becomes time to defend myself.


Eh, I don't need to be in Chicago to be aware. And I don't think I'd want to be this cautious :crazy:
Yeah the home activities you listed are considered passive in my book too.




> I can understand that. Especially if both Ti and Se are equally developed. To be honest though, I think it's really about balance. Too much thinking and no action = trouble. Likewise, too much action and no thinking = trouble. But if acting and thinking are balanced and used in a healthy manner, it's really not all that bad. I only say this because in an xSTP, Ti still needs Se because they balance each other out. I can't imagine my life without Ti or Se. They are equally important to me even if Ti _is_ my default function.


Dunno, I don't feel like too much action and no thinking equals trouble. I mean, sure, if you don't consider certain consequences that can be bad. :tongue: Otherwise, I would say that definitely too much thinking and no action is more trouble than vice versa. Just my bias showing here. 




> Sure. This is pretty much regarding Ni, though. This is a general example: Sometimes I'll have a bad feeling about something. A person's motives. The outcome of an experience. However, I'm still a bit weary, so I try to go along with things and see what happens next. There are times where I don't always trust that gut feeling, though, so I dismiss it. This isn't always the case, though. Eventually, something happens and I'm just like, "Yep, I knew it."


Hm, I either have a gut feeling or I don't, and if I do, I trust it because it's clear to me. I can feel the degree of certainty, too. I don't know if this is Ni though. When I'm in some bad period, I can have gut feelings come up that are rather clearly bullshit and I can always tell this just by looking. Because I do not see the logical connection . Otherwise this is not a problem. Now, the gut feelings that are explicitly premonitions, that sort rarely happens, very rarely. It however does work out as correct. But yeah I'm wary of that type of gut feeling, just like you are and I go ahead regardless. Then it turns out that it was correct, yeah. :sad:

The gut feelings that I trust are more logical ones. Like, when I'm navigating to find my way. Or in mathematics related tasks. The ones that include a feeling of premonition on something, those are the ones I'm too wary of. The outcome of an action where it cannot be logically reasoned because it is not about logical actions, that would be in this category. The motives of a person, that would be usually a logical something so the gut feels I get on that are reliable. 

Well I can also get paranoid about motives when I'm too involved and something doesn't add up.. then I get too focused on that irrational intuition, ignoring how unlikely the interpretation is, not considering there are more likely, simpler and more *realistic* ways to explain the mismatch. Eventually I do snap out of this, after I get enough information to analyze it out in a clear unambiguous way or when I do realize what that simpler interpretation is where things will indeed match up.




> A more specific example (and this is anecdotal btw):
> 
> I have a friend. Not sure of her type, but I do know she is a feeler. Anyway, she is probably one of the nicest people I know, yet incredibly naive about peoples' motives. This sometimes frustrates me, as she is forever getting into a situation where she ends up hurt somehow, only to cry about it later. Situations I've never even been in because I am always several steps ahead.
> 
> ...


Well this to me is rather logical, why does this need intuition and AHA moments to analyse it? If I were you, then when I'm at the moment thinking about how she's going to come back crying again, I'd see it as a rather obvious thing. She's done it countless times before in similar situations yeah? I probably would not even spend time noting this separately. Otoh, I would not assume that it is definitely going to happen because obviously, who knows what's actually going to happen, maybe she gets hit by a car and won't ever end up complaining to you again. Also possible that she'll finally have enough. It's possible, it's happened to people before. My friend kept complaining for years about his wife. By the time I got used to it as some inevitable thing, lol, precisely at that point he finally made the decision of leaving her. And he DID leave her. So, things sometimes happen, I would not want to predict this sort of stuff with 100% certainty. I guess if I was trying to follow every happening and his emotional states really closely I could have seen the trend leading to the decision. But with people related stuff I hardly do that, unfortunately. With logical stuff, it's easy.




> Another specific moment would be me knowing exactly what someone's motives are. When it comes to men, especially. I can usually tell which ones just want to have casual sex and which ones want a serious relationship. Of course, this may seem general since most women can tell, but for me, it's different because unlike other women, I see right into these men and know what their motives are within only a few seconds of talking to them. Most women don't realize this until after a few dates, or until it's already too late and they've been hurt.


How often are you right? How do you confirm it?

I have a simple approach to this so it's a non issue to me. I just observe and wait especially because I myself don't necessarily know if I just want a fling or a relationship. I don't get involved that fast. So I don't get burnt, hurt, whatever, and the motives are irrelevant initially. 

Anyway if I was to guess right away within a few seconds of talking, I would not really want to rely on it because it would come from superficial stereotyping. Unless it's a real obvious thing, someone who really does behave like wanting the casual sex only. But then it's hardly an earth shattering insight, lol.




> I'm an E9 so naturally I can pick up on patterns and see the root of things a bit faster than my E5 ISTP boyfriend can. It's more subconscious a lot of the time, and it was for a while. Recently I've been able to notice that it's been developing and it's a little more obvious. I don't really need help sorting patterns, though. While I understand them, I just don't know how to explain them a lot of the time. It's just there, kind of like an emotion.


Sure, with logical things I have the same as you describe it. Developed more over time and yeah it's "just there". With emotion/people related things it's less obvious. I have a hard time focusing on that aspect but I may have made progress over the years.




> That makes sense. With technical topics, I think it depends for me. If it's something I don't really know or understand, I'll give it a shot and try to figure it out on my own, but sometimes I'll ask one of my friends for their insight. You know, just to see if my gut instincts are correct or if I need to go a different direction. Sometimes the clarification and guidance can be useful.


Eh I prefer to sort it out on my own. I'll only ask for information from others, not for insights.




> The default ISTP description just makes us all sound like sociopaths in my opinion. Which is pretty unfair, seeing as some of the ISTPs I know on this forum are really not that bad once you get to know them. A bit abrasive? Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that since tact isn't exactly our thing, but I wouldn't say we lack a heart. It's more that we don't always know how to show it.
> 
> However, I know what you mean. If I'm not included in a group, I probably won't feel bad unless I know one of my friends in the group are intentionally snubbing me. Except I don't feel bad, per se. I actually find myself feeling a bit angry. And, of course, I let the person know that what they did bothered me. I won't just go off on them at first. Rather take the peaceful approach first in these kinds of situations. But if it's a group in which I don't know any of the people in it, I won't have an emotional reaction. I'll find something else to do or just stick around and observe.


Yeah that makes sense... the one thing where I feel like I have better Fe than the ISTP stuff I've read about is that I wouldn't want to invalidate other people's feelings like they seem to. I may not be feeling it myself and I may not care to figure out why they feel it but as I said there is always a cause for it so I don't see them as invalid. How you decide to interpret things is where the feelings matter, that is, they should not distort your judgment; but on their own they are never "invalid". So I'm not dismissive of people like that.

Do you see that differently as an ISTP?

And yeah I'd be angry too, not "feeling bad". I'm not as peaceful as you however. I'm not E9... And I can be angry even if I don't know the people.




> See, I grew up around feelers and SJs. Emotions everywhere, and while I understood the basic reasons behind the reaction, I just didn't feel the same way they did if something bothered them. So, compared to my relatives, I am more reserved in the emotional department. I don't wear my heart on my sleeve, so to speak. Those who know me from a distance probably think I'm a bitch, especially IRL. I've had a few people tell me that they were intimidated by me and that they first had a negative impression of me because of the simple fact that I was blunt, and didn't care much to seek people out. They didn't realize that I wasn't trying to be mean, but rather being honest and keeping to myself because I don't like to be in the way. But, since they know me better, they pretty much get it and don't take it to heart. My close friends love me, though, so.


I don't relate to any of this except the being reserved. I look much nicer than that when I'm in a friendly situation. Situations that aren't about that, I don't really care how I appear, so idk what that is like. Blunt for sure though.




> I can't always do that. Something has to be extremely obvious for me to immediately notice it. For example, abstract art has meaning. I originally didn't think it did because of how abstract art looks, but upon taking Art History courses in college, I learned that the paintings and images represented things, emotions, ideas, etc.
> 
> But with more literal art forms, I can tell what's going on if there are enough context clues. For example, some of the Rococo paintings feature seductive looking women. It doesn't take much for me to figure out that there are sexual connotations in those paintings.
> 
> So, yeah. Things have to be obvious for me to really know what's going on, because otherwise I'll just be like, "Okay..."


OK, I guess I could learn this. But you know what, this does sound a bit boring having to deal with it too much by having to study it so much first :laughing: 

The example btw, I'm not sure I get it... seductive looking women in a picture? Obviously it's a sexual connotation as it is... isn't it obvious, does it need explicit thinking for anyone?  Ah and abstract art, I have no idea what it's supposed to represent but it's again obvious that it's supposed to represent something. No? 




> I'll be more specific. Things I consider abstract that bore me are political theorizing that doesn't come to fruition (for obvious reasons), and I also find philosophy very boring. Feminism, anti-feminism, existentialism, etc. I don't care about it. Rather just do my own thing and move on.


Ah, well, some parts of philosophy are mental masturbation but other parts are good, in my opinion. I like to understand the ideas but if I find something is conceptualized wrong, I will declare the whole thing as bs. Not simply boring, no it's much worse than boring, lol




> Now, astrology and that sort of thing won't necessarily bore me. I can spend hours reading that stuff, and I'll enjoy it, but I have to take a break from it because I'll get a headache if I don't. Books that contain too many metaphors and not enough literal, concrete language will bore me as well. This is one reason I couldn't read Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell.


Astrology is in the bs category for me as explained above :laughing:




> It depends on what it is. I'm better at dealing with some abstract things than others, honestly. However, I do know that if I apply myself, I can be very good at dealing with the abstract, but I don't always want to. I also know that it'll take me a while longer than an Ni-dom to figure it all out right away. I do like Ni-doms for this reason: I learn from them. They figure this shit out so effortlessly while I still get it but can't always get it on paper unless it's a drawing. -.-


Yes it can be hard to put it into words. I can put it into words if I can fit it inside a logical framework though, no problem then.




> I'm capable of the above exactly as you described but I find that how I respond to their emotional problem depends on how important the person is to me. If they're important to me, yes, I'm going to want to know everything (even if I prefer to be calm and collected) so that I can figure it out. But if they're not important to me, I may feel a bit of sympathy, but I won't feel _empathy_ unless I've already been in the same boat. Even still, I don't know the person so I can't really care too much. A good example of what I mean is how I can't empathize with a rape victim because I've never been raped. But I can feel bad, though. It just won't be intense and I'll be over it within seconds. Another example is how people get all sad when a celebrity dies. I can't grieve or feel sad for someone I didn't know. And seeing as I don't worship humans, I'd just accept they're dead and move on.
> 
> I do know how to read peoples' feelings and get a basic understanding of why they feel a certain way, but what I mean when I say it doesn't make logical sense to me is that the way _they_ react isn't how_ I _would react.
> 
> Example: A kid is crying because he can't find his mom. I know he's scared and I would be scared, too. Except I wouldn't be crying because I know crying wouldn't solve anything. When I was a kid, I didn't cry much. Even if I was sad.


Well crying is not done because you want it to solve the problem, lol. It's done if you need to release some of the arousal (I think it works via removing some stress hormones). That extra arousal is due to being really upset over something that you can't yet see how you can solve. If you don't feel the need to cry then you just didn't produce that extra arousal, I guess. People are different and I don't really worry about that. It makes logical sense too, these differences. 

I don't even need to think of the above though. By default I'd just go, "most kids cry, it's a pretty normal thing". So I'm like that with most people, unless what they are doing with their emotions is really weird, I don't really give it a second thought.

As for empathy, eh, sure, I don't feel compelled to try and feel empathy. Why force it.




> Does that make more sense now? I was on my phone when I first typed out the former response and looking back, it's clear that I was still somewhat half-asleep. Let me know if you need more examples.


I don't see what I misunderstood? Maybe I wasn't being clear enough myself. Where I do not relate to you or most ISTPs is that I don't think people are stupid for having emotions. Just because I don't work in the same way, I don't think they are stupid. I don't worry that it doesn't make logical sense to me. It does actually make sense to me based on the explanations I provided earlier.

What I do think is idiotic though is if people let those emotions affect their reasoning in the wrong way. That can be really upsetting to see that happening.  It's so hard to accept it if I see that going on. So I'd better not even pay attention then as I don't want to hate people.

I do know of course that there are a lot of idiots out there in general but yeah I don't waste my time worrying about that.

I think the other thing where I don't relate to ISTPs is that I don't so readily voice my thoughts on how logic should be more important than emotions blahblah. Also what I said about how I don't invalidate their emotions, I don't tell them to not be stupid, to not feel upset, etc. I also would not want to be told such things myself. If I'm already at the point where I express what I feel, the last thing I would want is someone attempting to invalidate them in such a dismissive manner.




> I'm pretty aware of my emotional state, yeah. If I'm upset about something, I usually say so and simply state that I need some time to sort out the problem so I can fix whatever it is. My positive emotions I don't really have a problem expressing. If I'm happy, I may not be smiling, but I'll be in a good mood and be aware of it.


Oh I wasn't trying to state that I'm aware of all my feelings. I don't really bother with stating that I'm upset, I don't even notice it much if it's not too intense. Otherwise it's pretty clear to most people if I am upset, anyway, without me having to say it in words "I'm upset", lol

Being aware of being a good mood isn't the same as expressing it.. or you mean you express it when with your friends? 

Overall I express the negative much more easily than the positive, the positive I'm only comfortable with if I'm with the right people. The negative, being irritated, angry, that sort of thing, I'm comfortable expressing it almost anywhere. Unless I'm in a situation where I'm really really supposed to be nice polite. Otherwise no problem with it 




> Same as when I'm angry. I may not be frowning but on the inside I'll be aware of the storm that's brewing and find a way to tame it because I don't want to explode.


I can't tame it :laughing: I have to express it. Unavoidable. Is that more like ESTP, again 




> Another thing I am guilty of is not talking to people about my feelings when I probably should. I've never been one to wear my heart on my sleeve. Instead I find it easier to write them down in a journal and go back to it later to try and analyze why I felt a certain way.


OK I definitely don't work this much on my feelings :laughing: I'd feel pretty weird doing that. Writing them down, wtf? If some emotional reaction is so important and it isn't clear what caused it, I'm sure I'd just come back to it when I get the insight or see additional information. Or not, bad luck in that case :shrug Simple as that...




> I'll admit that the more I talk to you the more I'm having difficulty in figuring out if you're ISTP or ESTP. Mainly it's because your Ti and Se are neck and neck. You also seem to have healthy Fe.


I can see why it's harder to see with more information heh. What seems so healthy about the Fe? :tongue:




> Side note: there are ISTPs who do have healthy Fe due to either Enneagram or their upbringing. Sometimes life will throw an experience at you that pretty much forces you to mature a little faster than is expected, and with some of the more emotionally open ISTPs, this is usually the case if they're young (since childhood adversity does change you on a grand scale). Some of the ISTPs on the ISTP subforum (the ones who were already here when I first joined) consider me to be one of them since I've gone through some pretty fucked up shit growing up, but they know I'm not ESTP.


Well childhood adversity, it didn't make me have healthy Fe, I don't think so. Explain how that process is supposed to work? I'm not following this idea here at all.




> You also use a bit of abstract language here and there, but it's still easy to get where you're coming from. I think I'd have to observe you in person to _really_ get an idea. For the most part, though, initially I thought you _could_ be ESTP but it's possible that you're ISTP. considering you've been taking those tests on Keys2Cognition. Like we've agreed on before, those tests are weird as hell. >.>


Lol the abstract language, probably comes from my Ti-Ni loops 




> I think that with some of the younger ISTPs, either they are really emotional or not emotional at all. Too young to have full control of those outbursts we're prone to having during our younger years. Especially in high stress environments. The main emotions I showed growing up were anger, frustration, and, in rare cases, happiness. Pretty generic, basic emotions. Sadness I never showed because I internalized it. However when I was younger, I wasn't even aware of what I was feeling. It's only now that I'm older than I have a general idea of that stuff.


Same, totally. I don't think for me it's related to age, though...




> The only time I subconsciously focus on Fe when working on a task is at school, because of my grades and reputation. I'm one of the best students so I know that in order to keep that up, I can't really afford to be seen as incompetent because that'll just be embarrassing. But that's more about me not wanting to be incompetent and wanting to be good at something than caring about what the professors or other students in the art community think of me as an individual. I don't care if they think I suck or not, since that's their opinion. They're entitled to think whatever they want.


I don't relate to the last two sentences here. As I already said before, I do care if someone thinks crap bs about me or not. Unless it's so obviously bollocks that everyone can see the person is an idiot for thinking whatever :tongue:




> Not at all what I meant. That statement was in regards to my extroverted, super social friends who always want to hang out. I don't always want to be with them, even if I really do enjoy their company when we do hang out. In order for me to be able to get along with an extroverted, very social person with a lot of energy, I have to go out of my way to put in effort to sustain the friendship by occasionally hanging out with them because I value them. I just can't do it all the time because I lose energy.


OK, I don't have that issue, as I said I don't meet people that often. Never had these issues you do, I guess you have too many friends for your own good :tongue:




> Personally, I find it easier to be more social on the internet without any pressure because I'm in control of when I want to talk to someone. It's one of the main reasons I keep a Facebook account and spend time on this site to begin with. It's not difficult for me to be social in person, either, but I like hanging out in smaller groups instead of crowds since it is more low-key. I just get really tired afterwards, though. Especially if I've been with them for more than 5 hours. I can't help it; I lose energy from being around people in person than online.


OK for me it doesn't feel like real pressure online either. IRL, I do know I don't get tired out from being in a crowd if I'm not forced to be totally passive because then that does cause a problem, it makes me extremely irritated after a while. Idk why. I think spending 5 hours around people is not a problem otherwise. I just spent part of this weekend with someone for 7 hours, I only really felt like escaping when I was getting too occupied with trying to fight the urge to throw up :tongue: (Alcohol on already bad stomach) But even then I was fine largely, really. When I finally left to go home I was fine then too. Just normal. Would have been fine staying, fine going home too. Hard to tell the preference here. I do know I've been fine being alone since then, though. 

Or another example, three-day party this summer in my summerhouse, first afternoon+evening was having me pretty involved because someone kept getting me involved, I enjoyed that, it was all really cool. Then next two days I was content just sitting reading/doing things on the laptop. If someone had tried to engage me I would have been fine with that too. I was fine either way. But if I hadn't had the fun the first day, I would have been irritated those next two days doing only my own thing for sure. How would you be with that?

I do want to note that my trick going on seemingly forever like that is that withdraw into myself here and there for really short breaks. Say we are going around and then I have a chance to just look around instead of talking to people for a bit of time. Or I just simply don't say anything for a short time while the other people also don't talk to me. Then again I'm just looking around or playing with some object, etc. That stuff recharges me really quickly 

What do you think?




> Se started developing by the time I was 13, albeit very slowly. I was medicated for most of my life due to having lived with a narcissistic grandmother during high school (she had something to hide so she made up stories about me to a shrink and I was medicated to keep the secret, basically) so my Se was underdeveloped. Felt like a zombie mostly. And I do recall being unhappy about not being able to go out and explore the world outside my bedroom. However when I finally moved away, my Se started developing a lot faster. My sense of fashion had improved dramatically, and I'd learned how to decorate my bedroom and not make it look ugly. I'd also learned how to use certain tools around the house and would always fix things. Setting up furniture without looking at the manual was a bonus, though that was more Ti than everything.
> 
> I think part of this had to do with my sudden freedom to explore my surroundings without having a micromanaging narcissist hovering over my shoulder every time I tried to do something that made me happy.


OK that sounds crazy stuff :shocked: ...now if you hadn't had that, your Se would have been there sooner, no? Fashion heh, I started caring about it at the same time. Otoh, I never thought to learn to fix things around the house. This is one big difference between ISTPs and me again. I never had enough interest in this sort of thing. That mechanic or craftsman label totally doesn't apply to me. The Doer label of ESTP works better than that, for sure. Though depends how we interpret "doer". But yes, applies more overall because it's not so specialized as the ISTP one about things that I hardly spend time with, lol.




> Guilty of what's in bold. Especially a thing I did in high school. It's one of the reasons why the popular girls hated me. I didn't have time for their petty bullshit and even humiliated them a few times by pointing out their logical inaccuracies. I learned to read when I was 3, actually. But I didn't start talking until I was 6. Teachers and some of my relatives thought this was odd, and they assumed I didn't know how to talk and that I didn't understand them. Thing is, I did understand and know how to speak. I just didn't care to talk much. I've always been very quiet and observant, only to take action if something of interest caught my attention.


OK, I was not this bad with the criticism. Though it's possible that others saw that differently roud: Anyway, I didn't intentionally try to humiliate anyone like that unless they tried to slight me first.

I relate to the thing about not talking for a while though not to this extreme you did it 




> I argued with a few teachers, too. Mainly the really domineering, super strict, uptight ones who wanted me to do things their way without giving me room to figure it out on my own. I have never liked the traditional school environment because there is little room for exploration and improvisation. It's always "Do this like this, do this like that." So, even though I still got good grades, I had a bit of resentment toward the teachers.


My issue with teachers was more about me wanting to do/have things, unrelated to studies. I did not have a problem with school limiting the way of learning. But I don't remember too much anymore, maybe I did also have an issue with them telling me to do this or that.. I just remember that the studying itself was OK.




> That was in elementary and high school, though. I'm in college now and I don't really have a problem with it. The only complaints I have are the heavy amounts of homework and the fact that my professors expect a lot from me (comes with the territory of being in the top 5 percent) that it gets stressful.


Hmm for me it was natural to want and be the best and I was. Stressful, well, only because I made it stressful, lol, by only studying last moment. So I can only blame myself haha ..I think you shouldn't worry about it either, hard work is hard, naturally. 




> I think that the results on this particular test has a major factor: your mood when you took the test. Unless there is a glitch in the test itself.


Your answers should not depend on your mood. They should be about how you are most of the time, the trends in your whole life. My answers change when I understand myself a bit better in terms of that. 




> I always get ISTP on that and many other types of tests, but only once have I gotten ESTP on this one. I could be wrong, but it looks like you might be an ISTP based on this one alone since Fe is still less developed than Ni. However, if you always got ESTP, then maybe that's the best bet.


When I get ESTP it's still with Ni>Fe.




Saturnian Devil said:


> Anyway, yeah. It's about the same for me. I notice Se more, but Ti isn't always easy for me to pick up on unless I'm really introspecting or someone points out that I look like I'm pissed or in really deep thought.


Same, yeah. Well I do know if I'm in deep thought, lol, but otherwise, I don't notice my Ti things that others then point out to me.




> People have said that while I have an overall relaxed vibe, I still have this really intense stare, so I know it's that "ISTP glare" everyone talks about. The one that makes us look angry when we're not.


Well I'm usually told I'm nice and all, this sort of thing, but that's in friendly situations... in other situations I was told they think I look down on people. I do think I don't look "nice" by default. Just when I try to have the friendly attitude smiling and all that. Otherwise I know what you mean by the angry stare thingie. I'm not angry, just observant, so idk what that is. So I have that, or when in a more detached mode, just a very calm look. Do you have that too?


OK, also what results do you get on keys2cog, can you give me the specific numbers?

And I noticed in your profile now that you type as SLI in socionics, how much did you get into socionics? Just because that type is not Ti, nor Se in socionics. Or do you define the functions differently there? I def. don't type as SLI there. I was between SLE and LSI for a long time but then I decided. roud:


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Good discussion in this thread...but I don't have much to add...

Do you see yourself in this, even slightly (I know it describes a really extreme case - but do you see a hint of it in yourself at times)?



> *ESTP/ENFJ: Se/Fe or Fe/Se--Histrionic Personality Disorder*. This tends to manifest itself in terms of exaggerated, aggressive sexual behavior and physical impulsiveness. Since reflecting the outer world is the only thing that matters, whatever will shock, impress, or otherwise affect others enough to include the user in their social rituals is what has to be done. Real empathy is rare as this type requires constant thrills or conflict--in the ENFJ version, this often results in excessive sensitivity to perceived "rudeness" or failure to respect the user's preferred cultural custom (Fe), combined with tertiary Se responding aggressively through implied threats of brute force. (e.g., Vito Corleone: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse"--gives a surface appearance of respecting the cultural standards of negotiation, but implies that refusal to accept this "offer" would be quite unpleasant for the recipient!) If Ti/Ni were doing its job, the user would find a sense of balance and comfortability with himself, granting him the ability to discover what is subjectively important to him, rather than constantly shifting with the tide of cultural and social trends.


I'd suggest that if you've never experienced even the slightest Se-Fe loop or _tendency towards_ an Se-Fe loop, you're probably ISTP, especially as you mentioned Ti-Ni loops. Technically I think an auxiliary-inferior loop is possible, but the dominant-tertiary loop is much more common.

http://personalitycafe.com/istp-articles/76785-recognizing-inferior-function-istp.html
http://personalitycafe.com/sps-temperament-forum-creators/58243-form-inferior-function-esps.html (I know this one is shorter, I couldn't find the full ESP one)

That's all I got. Was hesitating to post this but I just wanted to help since you've helped me.


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

myst91 said:


> I'm not really into stereotypes but I think it reflects something about how Fe is treated by ISTP, yeah?.. And I don't relate to that entirely or I just misinterpreted something. I'm detached like you describe it, I can however be excitable about my projects, goals and some people alike. When I said I don't relate to people too directly I meant I don't get so involved with them like some other people seem to but I still need to be involved with them in some way, by doing something that helps them too, by being engaged in competition against them, etc. *Do you see what I mean here? And, do you relate to this?*


I see what you mean, and no I don't relate to it. I don't need to be involved with people all the time when enjoying something. That's probably the only part where we might be different on.



> Well I type as an E8. With a clear 7 wing. Because I had to account for the 7 thingie somehow and 5 is already in my tritype.  *Is ISTP 8 a common thing?*


I don't know if 8 is a common Enneagram for ISTPs, though it often is a wing. However, I have read that 9, 5, and 7 often are quite common. 

For all intents and purposes, this is my tritype: 9w8>6w5>3w2. I'm still figuring out my instinctual variation. 



> So, the excitement thing...* I can be pretty open about it in some moments without noticing. *But other people notice and comment on it


Same.



> Well both of these Ti-Ni loops were for an extended time. I don't have the small ones you talk about. As I said, I'm not exactly the type to just sit and think by default. I do not need it either. As I explained, _I can arrange things mentally right on the spot or later if an insight comes later but that needs more experience, data, whatever._ Otherwise I get a mental wall instantly.


Interesting. I'm not the type who needs to sit and think, either and I can arrange things mentally on the fly as well. I just actively choose not to sometimes, and this is usually when I'm tired as hell and recharging from some other activity. 



> So yeah, I don't sit&think. If I'm at the computer sitting I'm still doing something, like, talking on chat, on this forum , or doing some project. Or I can read some easy fiction. Or I can be reading something that I need to understand and learn and then I do think a lot about it to process it while reading. But it's naturally intertwined with the reading, I don't explicitly stop to completely tune out into my own head. Or if I just think without being engaged with anything else then that's because I have to wait for something so I need to kill the time and if I have nothing else to spend the time with, I'll be thinking about my goals then.


I can somewhat relate to this. Just not the last part. 




> As you can see, I don't sit the sake of pure reflection alone. *Unless you mean the reading up and talking to people while analysing counts into it.* Because then yes I do it a lot.


Precisely what I meant lol.



> But to be completely alone and not even read, just think being totally deeply inside my head, disconnected from the environment, that is not my favourite way of spending time by default except after entering that second Ti-Ni loop thingie. Even in the first Ti-Ni loop period it was not my favourite.. sure I liked doing it somewhat but it was not *better* than taking action. In the second loop, it was actually *preferred*. Make sense?


I see. Usually when I'm alone I'm either reading, on the computer, or blasting some house music. It's my typical way of "relaxing." Unless I'm sleeping, then obviously I'm not doing anything but sleeping.






> Oh.. I never had that in either of my Ti-Ni loops. I don't really like to speculate whatif's, what's the point. I prefer to think up a course of action and just do that. I don't really focus on stress either. Whatever, idk if these points are type related. Maybe enneagram. I'm definitely not a 9


That's fair. And yeah, that's proof you're an 8, so I can understand where you're coming from. I can be passive for a bit and suddenly I'll take action if pushed too far. When I get angry, that's usually the 8 wing showing. The speculation of what ifs during stress might be chocked up to the fact that stressed 9s seem like unhealthy 5s. 5s have a staunch need for security after all.








> Hmm well I was pretty productive in the first loop. Not really in the second one, but I hated that. I do that a lot about snapping at people who say bs but this doesn't depend on the loops for me, I always get irritated easily. More ESTP than ISTP there?


Not necessarily. I think that's just an E8 thing in general, since you're less patient than 9s. 9s are calm for a while until they've had enough, and only then will they act. There's an ISTP E8 on the forum (Thorweeps is his SN) who might be able to relate to you there. 






> Cool with your whole life figured out. I don't think 50 years ahead  Again, I would definitely not have the patience to sit and figure out all details like that. Just the outline of what I want, that's ok. Did you get more detailed than that?


The outline I had figured out first since that's the most efficient. I work on the details of my plans as I went along. Sometimes if one thing doesn't work, I go back and fix it or improvise with something else, so it's possible that I might not even follow through with certain things if I find myself being bored.




> I think we definitely deal differently with processing experiences and I already described how I do it - I can either immediately understand or not and if not, something else will have to come up later before I can analyse it. Do you analyse it anyway? How do you do this? I think with most experiences I don't have the need to separately analyse unless they are really not making sense by just looking at them. Most stuff is obvious to me by just looking.


With objects, I only analyze it if I'm interested in knowing something about said object, or if I'm in a situation where I'm required to know about it. Most times I just notice and accept it's there.

With experiences, I don't exactly need to analyze separately. I already know within seconds if I'm not enjoying it or not. Just won't always say so and will tend to go with the flow just to see if things may change. That's probably a 9 thing, though, so you may not relate.






> Well a difference for sure is that I don't worry about incompetence. I'm more impatient than you so I can just start and figure it out while on the move. Again maybe an enneagram difference.


Definitely an enneagram difference it seems. I also have the 6w5 in my trifix so the way I deal with situational analysis could be chocked up to that. 



> Also what I said about being contemplative... I don't do it so much on my own. I think -outside that 2nd Ti-Ni loop- it just kind of drains me to think too long because by that point I do not have enough understanding to go by or not enough information to analyse so I would have to get speculative instead. Which I don't really like doing. And when I do have enough of an understanding then I make very quick judgments so again, I don't need to do this sit and think thingie much.


I can relate to not liking to speculate. When it comes to certain situations, I try not to, but sometimes I can't help it. Most of the time I've already figured it out, but in cases where I am not so sure about something, I'll see if I can find more information or simply go back to observing/tinkering and correct information on the fly as needed.



> You could sum this up, as, I learn as I go. I'll give you an example of how this happens.. when I was learning sports training theory.. I would go out and try to train then I would analyse the data during the training by just looking at it and later at home and I would read up on the theory and understand while reading. Then go out again and try to apply that. See if it worked. And so on. With an insight/AHA moment coming up sporadically throughout all this. Things would click in place here and there neatly. Over time I finally had a complete understanding. Which progressed from an originally really inflexible understanding to one that was a neater higher level understanding and applicable in a really flexible way. During the whole process I would never just sit and contemplate much. Unless I was forced to wait somewhere. Then yes I would think about this to kill the time.


This applies to both ESTPs and ISTPs as well. 






> Uh.. pretty sure I don't multitask like you. I don't listen to music while doing something else, for sure. Just a comment, I don't think it matters that much for type?


I don't think it's a type thing, either. Just a simple preference. 






> I see, well I can shut out people related distractions too just fine


Good skill to have lol.






> OK but what you described as the passive side of your Se, I don't experience it as Se turning "on". It's always there for me as part of a basic awareness of the environment. If I were to notice things in the way you described it, feeling like coming out of my head and Se turning "on", that would mean I'm in a very bad place in my life  I was like that in the second Ti-Ni loop sometimes though. I do not find it's natural for me to be that out of touch with Se :sad:
> 
> 
> So I do not relate to the way you described your Se with that. Do you see what I mean? Or did I misinterpret you? Do you have that default awareness of environment that I spoke of above? From which these things should not "jump out" of because they are already *part* of the awareness.


I do notice everything in my environment. If something jumps out it's because something in the environment has changed and I immediately know what exactly it was that changed. Still Se regardless. By jump out, it's not the whole, "WHOA!" experience. It's the "Oh, okay, so this changed" kind of deal.



> If they were to "jump out" like this it would mean I truly disconnected from that awareness, and that is not something I like, at all. So it's like, Se is always "on" in the sense you defined it. Just emphasizing it again, so I can see if you relate here or not, it seems like an important difference if not.


I think it's different for you as an 8. You're more actively involved with Se, whereas I'm passive until it is necessary for me to take action. So I'll chock this up to enneagram as well.








> Eh, I don't need to be in Chicago to be aware. And I don't think I'd want to be this cautious :crazy:


I don't mind it. In fact that's why nothing has ever happened to me yet. I'm always several steps ahead. 



> Yeah the home activities you listed are considered passive in my book too.


Fair.




> Dunno, I don't feel like too much action and no thinking equals trouble. I mean, sure, if you don't consider certain consequences that can be bad. :tongue: Otherwise, I would say that definitely too much thinking and no action is more trouble than vice versa. Just my bias showing here.


Fair.



> Hm, I either have a gut feeling or I don't, and if I do, I trust it because it's clear to me. I can feel the degree of certainty, too. I don't know if this is Ni though. When I'm in some bad period, I can have gut feelings come up that are rather clearly bullshit and I can always tell this just by looking. Because I do not see the logical connection . Otherwise this is not a problem. Now, the gut feelings that are explicitly premonitions, that sort rarely happens, very rarely. It however does work out as correct. But yeah I'm wary of that type of gut feeling, just like you are and I go ahead regardless. Then it turns out that it was correct, yeah. :sad:


That's exactly how Ni is in those situations. You just described the aha! moment.



> The gut feelings that I trust are more logical ones. Like, when I'm navigating to find my way. Or in mathematics related tasks. The ones that include a feeling of premonition on something, those are the ones I'm too wary of. The outcome of an action where it cannot be logically reasoned because it is not about logical actions, that would be in this category. The motives of a person, that would be usually a logical something so the gut feels I get on that are reliable.


Makes sense. I do the same. 



> Well I can also get paranoid about motives when I'm too involved and something doesn't add up.. then I get too focused on that irrational intuition, ignoring how unlikely the interpretation is, not considering there are more likely, simpler and more *realistic* ways to explain the mismatch. Eventually I do snap out of this, after I get enough information to analyze it out in a clear unambiguous way or when I do realize what that simpler interpretation is where things will indeed match up.


It sucks when that happens, doesn't it? Been there.






> Well this to me is rather logical, why does this need intuition and AHA moments to analyse it? If I were you, then when I'm at the moment thinking about how she's going to come back crying again, I'd see it as a rather obvious thing. She's done it countless times before in similar situations yeah? I probably would not even spend time noting this separately. Otoh, I would not assume that it is definitely going to happen because obviously, who knows what's actually going to happen, maybe she gets hit by a car and won't ever end up complaining to you again. Also possible that she'll finally have enough. It's possible, it's happened to people before. My friend kept complaining for years about his wife. By the time I got used to it as some inevitable thing, lol, precisely at that point he finally made the decision of leaving her. And he DID leave her. So, things sometimes happen, I would not want to predict this sort of stuff with 100% certainty. I guess if I was trying to follow every happening and his emotional states really closely I could have seen the trend leading to the decision. But with people related stuff I hardly do that, unfortunately. With logical stuff, it's easy.


It's probably Enneagram related. But regardless, the aha! moment is only because I turned out to be right after all. People are very easy for me to read. It's clear my friend suffers from Stockholm Syndrome.  I think it's different if it's with someone you care about or some stranger, though. Random strangers, I don't care enough to figure out their issues. Friends, on the other hand, I pretty much already have an idea of what's going on and what their problem is. I just feel very confident when I find out I was spot on.






> How often are you right? How do you confirm it?


About 80 of the time. I confirm it by relating present reactions and situations to past experience with the same exact thing.



> I have a simple approach to this so it's a non issue to me. I just observe and wait especially because I myself don't necessarily know if I just want a fling or a relationship. I don't get involved that fast. So I don't get burnt, hurt, whatever, and the motives are irrelevant initially.


I prefer committed relationships so I pretty much pay attention to signs a guy just wants a fling so that I can weed them out. I don't get involved that fast, either. Took my SO months to actually get to know me. 



> Anyway if I was to guess right away within a few seconds of talking, I would not really want to rely on it because it would come from superficial stereotyping. *Unless it's a real obvious thing,* someone who really does behave like wanting the casual sex only. But then it's hardly an earth shattering insight, lol.


That's what I'm referring to. Guys make that shit obvious.







> Sure, with logical things I have the same as you describe it. Developed more over time and yeah it's "just there". With emotion/people related things it's less obvious. I have a hard time focusing on that aspect but I may have made progress over the years.


Makes sense. With people it's more obvious to me if I'm already close to them, though with strangers I'll notice their emotional state but not care about them to even bother. I chock this up to being a 9 as well. We tend to "merge" with the people we care about, while still remaining somewhat detached.






> Eh I prefer to sort it out on my own. I'll only ask for information from others, not for insights.


So do I. I don't always rely on insights to get somewhere, though. I'll ask for them if needed, but ultimately I go my own way because I can think for myself. So you kinda misinterpreted me lol









> Yeah that makes sense... the one thing where I feel like I have better Fe than the ISTP stuff I've read about is that I wouldn't want to invalidate other people's feelings like they seem to. I may not be feeling it myself and I may not care to figure out why they feel it but as I said there is always a cause for it so I don't see them as invalid. How you decide to interpret things is where the feelings matter, that is, they should not distort your judgment; but on their own they are never "invalid". So I'm not dismissive of people like that.
> 
> Do you see that differently as an ISTP?


Generally speaking, I actually agree with that. It's only when dealing with unhealthy, manipulative people that I intentionally dismiss them. 



> And yeah I'd be angry too, not "feeling bad". I'm not as peaceful as you however. I'm not E9... And I can be angry even if I don't know the people.


I can feel irritated if I don't know the people, but not angry to the point where I snap. Unless they are threatening me or someone I care about, I will remain peaceful. 






> I don't relate to any of this except the being reserved. I look much nicer than that when I'm in a friendly situation. Situations that aren't about that, I don't really care how I appear, so idk what that is like. Blunt for sure though.


So you don't have the resting bitch face thing most ISTPs deal with? Agreed on the bluntness. It's my favorite quality lol.






> OK, I guess I could learn this. But you know what, this does sound a bit boring having to deal with it too much by having to study it so much first :laughing:


Believe me, I was bored in that class the entire time. I just dealt with it since there were still bits and pieces I found interesting lmao. Plus I wanted that A so that I wouldn't have to take the final. >.>



> The example btw, I'm not sure I get it... seductive looking women in a picture? Obviously it's a sexual connotation as it is... isn't it obvious, does it need explicit thinking for anyone?  Ah and abstract art, I have no idea what it's supposed to represent but it's again obvious that it's supposed to represent something. No?


I don't think it does need a lot of thinking for anyone since a lot of the time the sexual connotations are literally right there lmao. I'm just saying that to some people who don't know much about art, this picture here would just seem like a woman on a swing (when in reality voyeurism is an explicit theme if you look at how the guy on the bottom left is literally positioned in front of her open legs and up her skirt):











With abstract art, on the other hand, it's just a bunch of random objects put together that don't look like they mean anything. At least to those who don't know much about the intention of the art itself. I'm really talking about perception and noticing hidden messages within images.





> Ah, well, some parts of philosophy are mental masturbation but other parts are good, in my opinion. I like to understand the ideas but if I find something is conceptualized wrong, I will declare the whole thing as bs. Not simply boring, no it's much worse than boring, lol


I can understand this. 





> Astrology is in the bs category for me as explained above :laughing:


I consider it BS, too, but I'm only interested in it since a lot of inspiration for artwork comes from those topics. I personally laugh at people who spend their money on oracles and "fortune tellers" :laughing: It's like, yo... Make your own damn fortune and don't let someone try to make it for you. 







> Yes it can be hard to put it into words. I can put it into words if I can fit it inside a logical framework though, no problem then.


That's real.






> Well crying is not done because you want it to solve the problem, lol. It's done if you need to release some of the arousal (I think it works via removing some stress hormones). That extra arousal is due to being really upset over something that you can't yet see how you can solve. If you don't feel the need to cry then you just didn't produce that extra arousal, I guess. People are different and I don't really worry about that. It makes logical sense too, these differences.


Good point. When I'm upset, I don't really cry over it. I just figure it out. This may be TMI but honestly nowadays the only time I _might _cry is during an orgasm, though. Because it feels good to the point where it's pretty overwhelming. 



> I don't even need to think of the above though. By default I'd just go, "most kids cry, it's a pretty normal thing". So I'm like that with most people, unless what they are doing with their emotions is really weird, I don't really give it a second thought.


Yeah, that makes sense. I really was using myself as an example since I didn't cry much as a kid lol. 



> As for empathy, eh, sure, I don't feel compelled to try and feel empathy. Why force it.


Agreed. It's better when it occurs organically imo.






> I don't see what I misunderstood? Maybe I wasn't being clear enough myself. Where I do not relate to you or most ISTPs is that I don't think people are stupid for having emotions. Just because I don't work in the same way, I don't think they are stupid. I don't worry that it doesn't make logical sense to me. It does actually make sense to me based on the explanations I provided earlier.
> 
> What I do think is idiotic though is if people let those emotions affect their reasoning in the wrong way. That can be really upsetting to see that happening.  It's so hard to accept it if I see that going on. So I'd better not even pay attention then as I don't want to hate people.
> 
> I do know of course that there are a lot of idiots out there in general but yeah I don't waste my time worrying about that.


You probably weren't clear enough, then. But at any rate I do understand what you're saying and can agree with it. 

But I'll make this clear though (in case it's not obvious lol): I'm not one of those extreme ISTPs who thinks people are stupid or inferior for having emotions. A lot of the ISTPs who have that mindset... Eh, I think they're usually just trying to be edgy. Now, I can think someone is overreacting, but I wouldn't necessarily think they're idiots or automatically unintelligent for reacting in such a manner. They're upset. They can be upset. That's their right and it's not my job to take that from them. It's just the way they handle problems, and it's what works for them. 

Like, I may not operate in the same fashion feelers do, but they're not stupid to me. I think they're valuable. I do agree that it is idiotic if the emotions cloud their judgment, though. The action is idiotic in that case, though, not the person. I do think logic is important, but I don't think it's healthy at all when ISTPs emphasize it to an extreme. Things might not make logical sense to us, but does that make it inherently wrong? I don't think so. 

That might just be my Enneagram 9 talking, though, since according to some articles we're apparently more "in-touch" with how we feel compared to other ISTPs. 




> I think the other thing where I don't relate to ISTPs is that I don't so readily voice my thoughts on how logic should be more important than emotions blahblah. Also what I said about how I don't invalidate their emotions, I don't tell them to not be stupid, to not feel upset, etc. I also would not want to be told such things myself. If I'm already at the point where I express what I feel, the last thing I would want is someone attempting to invalidate them in such a dismissive manner.


I can understand this. Personally, I think logic and emotions should work together. Sure, for ISTPs, this takes a lot of work because of inferior Fe, but it's not impossible. I think the issue is that a lot of ISTPs haven't figured out that feelings aren't exactly evil lmao.






> Oh I wasn't trying to state that I'm aware of all my feelings. I don't really bother with stating that I'm upset, I don't even notice it much if it's not too intense. Otherwise it's pretty clear to most people if I am upset, anyway, without me having to say it in words "I'm upset", lol


I don't always state I'm upset unless I'm in a public situation where I realize I can't just walk out. In my experience, that causes more problems for me in the long run, so I try to warn people and let them know I need a little space. I used to not do this at all when I was younger and it always got me into more trouble. Those who know me very well pretty much can tell when I'm upset, though. I don't need to tell them. They take the hint and give me space but inform me that if I need anything, I know where to find them. 



> Being aware of being a good mood isn't the same as expressing it.. or you mean you express it when with your friends?


I express it with my friends. I don't have an issue with expressing positive emotions in general, though. They're just understated but still obvious.



> Overall I express the negative much more easily than the positive, the positive I'm only comfortable with if I'm with the right people. The negative, being irritated, angry, that sort of thing, I'm comfortable expressing it almost anywhere. Unless I'm in a situation where I'm really really supposed to be nice polite. Otherwise no problem with it


I express the negative a lot easier if I'm already pissed off or if I'm with the right people. I don't wanna say something and then find out that I accidentally caused a ruckus because then I'll have disturbed the peace and feel like shit about it. So I'm the opposite lol.






> I can't tame it :laughing: I have to express it. Unavoidable. Is that more like ESTP, again


Probably the E8 thing again I think. I have the 8 wing so when I'm angry, it definitely shows on my face and in my tone of voice. I just won't always realize it right away.






> OK I definitely don't work this much on my feelings :laughing: I'd feel pretty weird doing that. Writing them down, wtf? If some emotional reaction is so important and it isn't clear what caused it, I'm sure I'd just come back to it when I get the insight or see additional information. Or not, bad luck in that case :shrug Simple as that...


That's fair. I'll admit I used to not keep a journal up until I realized that my inferior Fe was actually causing me to alienate the people I cared about. So that's just my way of keeping myself in check. 






> I can see why it's harder to see with more information heh. What seems so healthy about the Fe? :tongue:


You're more open compared to some of the other ISTPs on the forum. And you don't hold back lol. (I actually appreciate those qualities lmao).






> Well childhood adversity, it didn't make me have healthy Fe, I don't think so. Explain how that process is supposed to work? I'm not following this idea here at all.


What I meant was, childhood adversity can change someone. For good or for bad. It's really about how you deal with things after the fact. Like, what I dealt with could have made me more of a bitch and extremely emotionally closed off to people, but for me it did the opposite. I'm still reserved, yes, but able to have compassion for those who've experienced the same things I did. Some people tend to use their experiences as a copout. "Oh, my parents didn't love me." As much as it hurts to not be loved by parents, it's not an excuse to turn around and be the same way toward others. Again, that's just my E9-ness talking.








> Lol the abstract language, probably comes from my Ti-Ni loops


Maybe, but you don't seem to be looping in my opinion. I'll have to think about why but I'll get back to you on that.






> Same, totally. I don't think for me it's related to age, though...


Could be, might not be. I think it varies per individual. Some people develop a lot faster than others.






> I don't relate to the last two sentences here. As I already said before, I do care if someone thinks crap bs about me or not. Unless it's so obviously bollocks that everyone can see the person is an idiot for thinking whatever :tongue:


That's fair. See, for me it's like this: if I don't even know you, your opinion of me is irrelevant. It's not going to hurt my self-esteem. I know who I am. 

But if it's a friend or someone who's looking out for my best interest at heart, then yeah, I'll give a shit about what they think lol. I may not always take heed to what they suggest, but I'll appreciate that they were honest with me.






> OK, I don't have that issue, as I said I don't meet people that often. Never had these issues you do, I guess you have too many friends for your own good :tongue:


Probably lmao. 






> OK for me it doesn't feel like real pressure online either. IRL, I do know I don't get tired out from being in a crowd if I'm not forced to be totally passive because then that does cause a problem, it makes me extremely irritated after a while. Idk why. I think spending 5 hours around people is not a problem otherwise. I just spent part of this weekend with someone for 7 hours, I only really felt like escaping when I was getting too occupied with trying to fight the urge to throw up :tongue: (Alcohol on already bad stomach) But even then I was fine largely, really. When I finally left to go home I was fine then too. Just normal. Would have been fine staying, fine going home too. Hard to tell the preference here. I do know I've been fine being alone since then, though.


Yeah online isn't an issue.

But I've spent about 24 hours with a close friend once. I enjoyed her company, but I was still glad when she finally went home because I was just dying for some alone time. I think for me it depends on who I'm around and for how long. 



> Or another example, three-day party this summer in my summerhouse, first afternoon+evening was having me pretty involved because someone kept getting me involved, I enjoyed that, it was all really cool. Then next two days I was content just sitting reading/doing things on the laptop. If someone had tried to engage me I would have been fine with that too. I was fine either way. But if I hadn't had the fun the first day, I would have been irritated those next two days doing only my own thing for sure. How would you be with that?


_Three day party?_ I'd have only shown up for the first day and been among the first to leave due to already being under the influence lmfao. I can't enjoy parties if I'm sober because I'd just be the wallflower on the side of the room watching everyone and everything. The alcohol would serve to open me up a bit.



> I do want to note that my trick going on seemingly forever like that is that withdraw into myself here and there for really short breaks. Say we are going around and then I have a chance to just look around instead of talking to people for a bit of time. Or I just simply don't say anything for a short time while the other people also don't talk to me. Then again I'm just looking around or playing with some object, etc. That stuff recharges me really quickly
> 
> What do you think?


That's kind of what I do if I've been hanging around someone for extended periods of time. But when I'm finally alone, it'll be a few hours or about a day or two before they hear from me again.








> OK that sounds crazy stuff :shocked: ...now if you hadn't had that, your Se would have been there sooner, no? Fashion heh, I started caring about it at the same time. Otoh, I never thought to learn to fix things around the house. This is one big difference between ISTPs and me again. I never had enough interest in this sort of thing. That mechanic or craftsman label totally doesn't apply to me. The Doer label of ESTP works better than that, for sure. Though depends how we interpret "doer". But yes, applies more overall because it's not so specialized as the ISTP one about things that I hardly spend time with, lol.


Maybe, I don't know. I think it was always there, but in a much more passive sense. My great-grandparents say that I was always getting into stuff, so that's a sign of Se in itself. However there are a lot of things I do not vividly recall regarding my childhood and it could be the bad memories of the abuse that I have subconsciously blocked out as a defense mechanism. Or perhaps the medications affected me somehow. I don't know. Never really cared too much to analyze it.

But yes, I've always had the dominant Ti going on. But I know what you mean about the ISTP specializing in something whereas the ESTP just does stuff. I specialize in art and several other things and it's not surface knowledge. The knowledge is very deep and there is always more being added to that knowledge.










> OK, I was not this bad with the criticism. Though it's possible that others saw that differently roud: Anyway, I didn't intentionally try to humiliate anyone like that unless they tried to slight me first.


I stayed out of the way until slighted. Then I'd react. I rarely ever initiated a fight. 



> I relate to the thing about not talking for a while though not to this extreme you did it


Yeah, it's pretty extreme. 






> My issue with teachers was more about me wanting to do/have things, unrelated to studies. I did not have a problem with school limiting the way of learning. But I don't remember too much anymore, maybe I did also have an issue with them telling me to do this or that.. I just remember that the studying itself was OK.


Like extracurriculars? Or do you mean something else? Personally though while I resented the rules I followed them if they made sense, although I did question things that didn't make sense at all.





> Hmm for me it was natural to want and be the best and I was. Stressful, well, only because I made it stressful, lol, by only studying last moment. So I can only blame myself haha ..I think you shouldn't worry about it either, hard work is hard, naturally.


It's only stressful because they're in my way. If they weren't on my case, I'd be fine. It's micromanagement that I despise. My professors do this a lot.






> Your answers should not depend on your mood. They should be about how you are most of the time, the trends in your whole life. My answers change when I understand myself a bit better in terms of that.


I don't disagree with that. They shouldn't depend on the mood. I'm merely stating that for a lot of people who take those tests, they aren't being honest with themselves, so they will get different sorts of results each time they take it. Not saying this is the case for you, just to make this clear. 






> When I get ESTP it's still with Ni>Fe.


I see.






> Same, yeah. Well I do know if I'm in deep thought, lol, but otherwise, I don't notice my Ti things that others then point out to me.


That's interesting. Mind giving some examples for that last part? What kinds of things do others point out to you regarding your Ti?






> Well I'm usually told I'm nice and all, this sort of thing, but that's in friendly situations... in other situations I was told they think I look down on people. I do think I don't look "nice" by default. Just when I try to have the friendly attitude smiling and all that. Otherwise I know what you mean by the angry stare thingie. I'm not angry, just observant, so idk what that is. So I have that, or when in a more detached mode, just a very calm look. Do you have that too?


So the resting bitch face thing I mentioned earlier. Turns out you do have it after all lmao. I think that with people who don't know us well, this will seem to be the case: that we're angry or looking down on them when in reality it's our neutral expression. 

I do get the whole "Are you sad?" thing a lot when I'm not in deep thought, and am simply relaxed and passive observing my environment. I think xSTPs in general seem to come across as unintentionally intimidating to others. Maybe it's projection or something. It's funny sometimes.




> OK, also what results do you get on keys2cog, can you give me the specific numbers?


I got ISTP, as usual.









I'm a bit exhausted today so it may have affected my results. Usually the Fi is a teeny bit higher than that. It's all good though, as I don't doubt my type whatsoever lmao




> And I noticed in your profile now that you type as SLI in socionics, how much did you get into socionics? Just because that type is not Ti, nor Se in socionics. Or do you define the functions differently there? I def. don't type as SLI there. I was between SLE and LSI for a long time but then I decided. roud:


I don't know anything about socionics, actually. I only took a test once and that's what I got so I put it there without giving it a second thought.


----------



## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

ketchup said:


> Do you see yourself in this, even slightly (I know it describes a really extreme case - but do you see a hint of it in yourself at times)?
> 
> I'd suggest that if you've never experienced even the slightest Se-Fe loop or _tendency towards_ an Se-Fe loop, you're probably ISTP, especially as you mentioned Ti-Ni loops. Technically I think an auxiliary-inferior loop is possible, but the dominant-tertiary loop is much more common.


Hmm nice point there. This SeFe stuff happens rarely but it did happen before. Though more the Se than the Fe part, really. The Fe part shuts down too easily. 

I looked up that loop article, btw, I guess I was never this deep in Ti-Ni loops for more than a few weeks where I really did just build theories while second-guessing all of it by either logically shooting down the bad ideas or by testing stuff out and that always failed in real life tests. The rest of the time that I call Ti-Ni loops I was simply deeply in thinking and considering insights but I was not doing it in such a haphazard way as the article describes - I rarely had to backtrack as I would only consider sensible -yet very abstract- ideas. Ti and Ni worked together well 




> http://personalitycafe.com/istp-articles/76785-recognizing-inferior-function-istp.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/sps-temperament-forum-creators/58243-form-inferior-function-esps.html (I know this one is shorter, I couldn't find the full ESP one)
> 
> That's all I got. Was hesitating to post this but I just wanted to help since you've helped me.


Thanks  The inferior function stuff, another good point, I'm like, I can say the Fe stuff is something I'm familiar with on a daily level basically, it comes and goes easily, the Ni stuff I only experienced once or twice in life and that was pretty... deep. I however found control over it on my own. The Fe stuff, that's not really that easy to control in comparison. Whatever sense you can make out of this with regard to my typing


----------



## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Saturnian Devil said:


> I see what you mean, and no I don't relate to it. I don't need to be involved with people all the time when enjoying something. That's probably the only part where we might be different on.


Oh wait I didn't mean literally all the time. It's just a big part of my life but it's not like I'm focused on this all day. Everyday, yes, it has to be everyday, but not all day 24/7 everyday. So, do you still not relate? Was this the only difference here? I'll rephrase: if you were never doing anything that had you relate to other people in this indirect way, like in my examples I've given you, would you be OK?




> For all intents and purposes, this is my tritype: 9w8>6w5>3w2. I'm still figuring out my instinctual variation.


What instinctual stackings are you considering for yourself? I'm borderline on sx/sp vs sp/sx  ..well I'm pretty sure on sx>sp but I can pass for sp>sx very easily, people tell me so, and I can see why... just my internal experience differs as I do not find sp that interesting and I'm not neurotic about it in any way whatsoever, it's something that's just really simple to deal with and too much of a focus on it would be boring. 




> > So, the excitement thing... I can be pretty open about it in some moments without noticing. But other people notice and comment on it
> 
> 
> Same.


Haha ok, do other people comment on it too? I'm told it's cute etc. 




> Interesting. I'm not the type who needs to sit and think, either and I can arrange things mentally on the fly as well. I just actively choose not to sometimes, and this is usually when I'm tired as hell and recharging from some other activity.


Oh then we misunderstood each other there originally. OK, this makes sense then 




> > So yeah, I don't sit&think. If I'm at the computer sitting I'm still doing something, like, talking on chat, on this forum , or doing some project. Or I can read some easy fiction. Or I can be reading something that I need to understand and learn and then I do think a lot about it to process it while reading. But it's naturally intertwined with the reading, I don't explicitly stop to completely tune out into my own head. Or if I just think without being engaged with anything else then that's because I have to wait for something so I need to kill the time and if I have nothing else to spend the time with, I'll be thinking about my goals then.
> 
> 
> I can somewhat relate to this. Just not the last part.


Which last part, thinking about goals?




> The outline I had figured out first since that's the most efficient. I work on the details of my plans as I went along. Sometimes if one thing doesn't work, I go back and fix it or improvise with something else, so it's possible that I might not even follow through with certain things if I find myself being bored.


OK same for me, except I do like to follow through.. as long as my vision (=goal) is there and it doesn't just go away on its own that easily  Do you not have that?




> With objects, I only analyze it if I'm interested in knowing something about said object, or if I'm in a situation where I'm required to know about it. Most times I just notice and accept it's there.
> 
> With experiences, I don't exactly need to analyze separately. I already know within seconds if I'm not enjoying it or not. Just won't always say so and will tend to go with the flow just to see if things may change. That's probably a 9 thing, though, so you may not relate.


Yeah I don't really go with the flow in many situations. In friendly ones, maybe.

I'm not sure how you connected analysis to knowing if you enjoy an experience?? Explain your train of thought here, not following, lol. 

I was talking about making sense of experiences and situations, not about enjoyment of them.




> This applies to both ESTPs and ISTPs as well.


Surely you've seen differences in how the two types do this?




> I do notice everything in my environment. If something jumps out it's because something in the environment has changed and I immediately know what exactly it was that changed. Still Se regardless. By jump out, it's not the whole, "WHOA!" experience. It's the "Oh, okay, so this changed" kind of deal.


OK so then this was just a misunderstanding too.

So you always have the awareness of your environment on a basic level, always knowing where you are? Or does it ever turn off and if so, how bad does that feel to you?




> I think it's different for you as an 8. You're more actively involved with Se, whereas I'm passive until it is necessary for me to take action. So I'll chock this up to enneagram as well.


Yeah I considered that before, that enneagram plays a role here in strengthening Se. So I would be like an ESTP with extra Ti and no Fe, but easier to explain it as ISTP with extra Se.




> > The gut feelings that I trust are more logical ones. Like, when I'm navigating to find my way. Or in mathematics related tasks. The ones that include a feeling of premonition on something, those are the ones I'm too wary of. The outcome of an action where it cannot be logically reasoned because it is not about logical actions, that would be in this category. The motives of a person, that would be usually a logical something so the gut feels I get on that are reliable.
> 
> 
> Makes sense. I do the same.


Same with navigating and maths stuff too? Just out of curiosity...




> > Well I can also get paranoid about motives when I'm too involved and something doesn't add up.. then I get too focused on that irrational intuition, ignoring how unlikely the interpretation is, not considering there are more likely, simpler and more *realistic* ways to explain the mismatch. Eventually I do snap out of this, after I get enough information to analyze it out in a clear unambiguous way or when I do realize what that simpler interpretation is where things will indeed match up.
> 
> 
> It sucks when that happens, doesn't it? Been there.


Right, lol




> It's probably Enneagram related. But regardless, the aha! moment is only because I turned out to be right after all. People are very easy for me to read. It's clear my friend suffers from Stockholm Syndrome.  I think it's different if it's with someone you care about or some stranger, though. Random strangers, I don't care enough to figure out their issues. Friends, on the other hand, I pretty much already have an idea of what's going on and what their problem is. I just feel very confident when I find out I was spot on.


OK, yeah, it's cool to feel validated in your thinking. 




> I prefer committed relationships so I pretty much pay attention to signs a guy just wants a fling so that I can weed them out. I don't get involved that fast, either. Took my SO months to actually get to know me.


What's his type btw?




> I don't think it does need a lot of thinking for anyone since a lot of the time the sexual connotations are literally right there lmao. I'm just saying that to some people who don't know much about art, this picture here would just seem like a woman on a swing (when in reality voyeurism is an explicit theme if you look at how the guy on the bottom left is literally positioned in front of her open legs and up her skirt)


Lol that picture, ok, that's more veiled, yeah. But I notice the positions of the men compared to the woman, for sure. :tongue:




> > Yes it can be hard to put it into words. I can put it into words if I can fit it inside a logical framework though, no problem then.
> 
> 
> That's real.


Ha, you mean, the logic makes it real? roud:




> Good point. When I'm upset, I don't really cry over it. I just figure it out. This may be TMI but honestly nowadays the only time I _might _cry is during an orgasm, though. Because it feels good to the point where it's pretty overwhelming.


Lol. I don't really cry much either. But if I watch some sport races that might do it. Idk why :crazy:




> But I'll make this clear though (in case it's not obvious lol): I'm not one of those extreme ISTPs who thinks people are stupid or inferior for having emotions. A lot of the ISTPs who have that mindset... Eh, I think they're usually just trying to be edgy. Now, I can think someone is overreacting, but I wouldn't necessarily think they're idiots or automatically unintelligent for reacting in such a manner. They're upset. They can be upset. That's their right and it's not my job to take that from them. It's just the way they handle problems, and it's what works for them.
> 
> Like, I may not operate in the same fashion feelers do, but they're not stupid to me. I think they're valuable. I do agree that it is idiotic if the emotions cloud their judgment, though. The action is idiotic in that case, though, not the person. I do think logic is important, but I don't think it's healthy at all when ISTPs emphasize it to an extreme. Things might not make logical sense to us, but does that make it inherently wrong? I don't think so.
> 
> That might just be my Enneagram 9 talking, though, since according to some articles we're apparently more "in-touch" with how we feel compared to other ISTPs.


Edgy in what sense? 

OK so we do agree on a lot here. I'm also in touch with some of my stuff, maybe that's gut triad in general?




> I can understand this. Personally, I think logic and emotions should work together. Sure, for ISTPs, this takes a lot of work because of inferior Fe, but it's not impossible. I think the issue is that a lot of ISTPs haven't figured out that feelings aren't exactly evil lmao.


I never thought it was evil. Upsetting when feeling out of control, maybe, I do hate that, but that's not the same thing.




> I don't always state I'm upset unless I'm in a public situation where I realize I can't just walk out. In my experience, that causes more problems for me in the long run, so I try to warn people and let them know I need a little space. I used to not do this at all when I was younger and it always got me into more trouble. Those who know me very well pretty much can tell when I'm upset, though. I don't need to tell them. They take the hint and give me space but inform me that if I need anything, I know where to find them.


Hmm interesting strategy of informing others in advance, maybe I could use it. Though a difference is that I don't feel the need for that bit of space, I'm more focused on the problem and solving that problem. When do you need this space?




> I express it with my friends. I don't have an issue with expressing positive emotions in general, though. They're just understated but still obvious.
> 
> I express the negative a lot easier if I'm already pissed off or if I'm with the right people. I don't wanna say something and then find out that I accidentally caused a ruckus because then I'll have disturbed the peace and feel like shit about it. So I'm the opposite lol.


Er if I'm not pissed off then there is no negative lol. So I don't get the idea there. ?!? Yeah I don't relate to the peace focus or being understated about positive stuff.. gotta be the enneagram roud:




> That's fair. I'll admit I used to not keep a journal up until I realized that my inferior Fe was actually causing me to alienate the people I cared about. So that's just my way of keeping myself in check.


Can you say more on how it was alienating those people?




> You're more open compared to some of the other ISTPs on the forum. And you don't hold back lol. (I actually appreciate those qualities lmao).


Yeahh, that's one of the reasons why I don't relate to a lot of ISTPs :tongue: 

Glad you appreciate it 




> What I meant was, childhood adversity can change someone. For good or for bad. It's really about how you deal with things after the fact. Like, what I dealt with could have made me more of a bitch and extremely emotionally closed off to people, but for me it did the opposite. I'm still reserved, yes, but able to have compassion for those who've experienced the same things I did. Some people tend to use their experiences as a copout. "Oh, my parents didn't love me." As much as it hurts to not be loved by parents, it's not an excuse to turn around and be the same way toward others. Again, that's just my E9-ness talking.


Well I had a lot of experience with adversity myself. I explain a lot of the E8 stuff by it. It didn't exactly make me open or anything but I did also have positive experiences a very long time ago.. my E8 mind idealizes it a bit  that is what ensures I'm not so closed off all the time.




> Maybe, but you don't seem to be looping in my opinion. I'll have to think about why but I'll get back to you on that.


Do let me know, I'm really curious about this. See my response to ketchup too about how much / how little I relate to the actual looping. If we define it by totally "kicking" Se out, then no I didn't have that much looping going on, just for shorter time periods inside the longer period of something resembling the loop with Se less emphasized than usual and Ni more emphasized than usual. If you mean that's not quite the loop itself, just halfway to it, ok. 




> Could be, might not be. I think it varies per individual. Some people develop a lot faster than others.


Well I mainly was talking about how it's not age related for me to have outbursts or not. In the first Ti-Ni period I didn't have any of that anymore. No Fe basically. Then I got out of that, I got back to my previous state again in terms of that... so even though I aged, I don't find I really changed in this area. It was not dependent on age, the changes. I guess for me it's part of normalcy :tongue: I don't aim to get rid of all emotionality even if some of it is not controlled enough. That's still better than having none whatsoever. Make sense?

Maybe I'm wrong and should learn to have perfect control, but I don't care for perfection :tongue:




> That's fair. See, for me it's like this: if I don't even know you, your opinion of me is irrelevant. It's not going to hurt my self-esteem. I know who I am.
> 
> But if it's a friend or someone who's looking out for my best interest at heart, then yeah, I'll give a shit about what they think lol. I may not always take heed to what they suggest, but I'll appreciate that they were honest with me.


OK well for me it's more like, 1) I don't know you and I'll never see you again, so I don't care; or it's like, 2) I may or may not know you and may see you again or not, but it's irrelevant as I'm currently focused on this problem, so I don't care about what you think of me; or 3) I'm right now not focused on any tasks or on solving problems, we could be socializing here, we'll spend time together later too, so yeah I care if you think some bs about me or not. A bit higher Fe here than some other ISTPs :shrug

See what I mean? I guess you don't relate?

With friends, sure, same.




> But I've spent about 24 hours with a close friend once. I enjoyed her company, but I was still glad when she finally went home because I was just dying for some alone time. I think for me it depends on who I'm around and for how long.


Eh, 24 hours or more time with friend or two friends, sure happened before, that was all fun. I of course always take those microbreaks I talked about.. so no problem. Half a minute, even less, or a few minutes at most. Also, some of the time is spent by me alone actually, while the others do whatever. I would read a book or go for a run or whatever. Though I appreciate it if they want to join for the run 

Do you do the microbreaks like I do it? Does just looking around or going around a bit alone recharge you quickly like I describe it?




> _Three day party?_ I'd have only shown up for the first day and been among the first to leave due to already being under the influence lmfao. I can't enjoy parties if I'm sober because I'd just be the wallflower on the side of the room watching everyone and everything. The alcohol would serve to open me up a bit.


Ah, heh, I don't need alcohol for that, just good fun company. Alcohol doesn't really do any more than that to me. So you do sound more introverted than me  ...and if there is no people who are fun and make me involved then I'd better just leave, so I'm not exactly that extraverted either :tongue: I could try to use alcohol to get involved then, maybe, but I don't see the point, tbh. I remain pretty controlled no matter how much I drink, actually.. what I do truly depends on the company more than the drink.

I was asking you if you would be irritated like I would be if I'm there around people but I'm not getting involved, just passive all the time. Do you relate to this at all?




> That's kind of what I do if I've been hanging around someone for extended periods of time. But when I'm finally alone, it'll be a few hours or about a day or two before they hear from me again.


Hmm, when I'm left alone after these meets, I guess it does take me a couple days before I think of contacting them again so that does make me an introvert - but if they contact me again soon I'll be responsive no problem. I guess there is a limit even for me though.. e.g. when I visit my mom's, I do have to tell my very extraverted brother after a while that I want to read or focus on whatever else right now. Hard to shut him up, lol :tongue: Most people I know aren't this crazy :tongue:




> But yes, I've always had the dominant Ti going on. But I know what you mean about the ISTP specializing in something whereas the ESTP just does stuff. I specialize in art and several other things and it's not surface knowledge. The knowledge is very deep and there is always more being added to that knowledge.


Ah that's not what I was talking about. I meant the Mechanic label for the ISTP is something very specific and I don't happen to relate to it. The Doer label is easier to relate to because it can include other activities. Otherwise I'm indeed more a specialist, more into deep knowledge, than a jack of all trades. I could be "just doing" stuff but I would feel that lacking, not enough Ti there. Make sense?

So anyway, I don't relate to mechanic/craftsman, you do?




> I stayed out of the way until slighted. Then I'd react. I rarely ever initiated a fight.


OK, ok, more 8 for me there :tongue:




> Like extracurriculars? Or do you mean something else? Personally though while I resented the rules I followed them if they made sense, although I did question things that didn't make sense at all.


I didn't resent all rules, just if they got in my way or didn't make sense. What did you ask about in terms of extracurriculars?




> It's only stressful because they're in my way. If they weren't on my case, I'd be fine. It's micromanagement that I despise. My professors do this a lot.


What do they do that's annoying micromanaging?




> I don't disagree with that. They shouldn't depend on the mood. I'm merely stating that for a lot of people who take those tests, they aren't being honest with themselves, so they will get different sorts of results each time they take it. Not saying this is the case for you, just to make this clear.


It's a silly oversimplification to assume they aren't being honest with themselves. It could just as easily be simple cluelessness while trying to learn more about themselves, simply not knowing themselves at all, or not understanding that they shouldn't go by moods.




> That's interesting. Mind giving some examples for that last part? What kinds of things do others point out to you regarding your Ti?


Yeah, they tell me I'm asking these analytical questions, that I express myself in a precise "mathematical" way that I seem to expect from others too, incl. that it's hard to nitpick on my way of expression lol, and just in general how logical I seem.




> So the resting bitch face thing I mentioned earlier. Turns out you do have it after all lmao. I think that with people who don't know us well, this will seem to be the case: that we're angry or looking down on them when in reality it's our neutral expression.


Well can you show me some pictures so I can see we are talking about the same "resting bitch" face thing? But for sure, I definitely do have this face that is just me being ready and observant and rather unemotional but it does not look simply neutral for some reason :crazy: Apparently some people *like* it though.. an INFJ for example really commented on it in a positive way 

Do you have the more detached calm face too? That I mentioned I have as well. That one is more truly neutral.


Also, earlier you mentioned:


> Those who know me from a distance probably think I'm a bitch, especially IRL. I've had a few people tell me that they were intimidated by me and that they first had a negative impression of me because of the simple fact that I was blunt, and didn't care much to seek people out. They didn't realize that I wasn't trying to be mean, but rather being honest and keeping to myself because I don't like to be in the way. But, since they know me better, they pretty much get it and don't take it to heart.


So how did they figure it out what it is, so that now they get it, and don't take it to heart, how did they get to know you better?




> I do get the whole "Are you sad?" thing a lot when I'm not in deep thought, and am simply relaxed and passive observing my environment. I think xSTPs in general seem to come across as unintentionally intimidating to others. Maybe it's projection or something. It's funny sometimes.


No, I've never been asked if I'm sad when I wasn't sad. Intimidating, more than sad.




> I'm a bit exhausted today so it may have affected my results. Usually the Fi is a teeny bit higher than that. It's all good though, as I don't doubt my type whatsoever lmao


Ohh where do you get Ne this good. See mine in comparison doesn't exist :tongue:




> I don't know anything about socionics, actually. I only took a test once and that's what I got so I put it there without giving it a second thought.


Alright, just informing you then that I don't think you're SLI. :ninja: Based on the stuff so far. Which test was it if you still remember?


----------



## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

myst91 said:


> Oh wait I didn't mean literally all the time. It's just a big part of my life but it's not like I'm focused on this all day. Everyday, yes, it has to be everyday, but not all day 24/7 everyday. So, do you still not relate? Was this the only difference here? *I'll rephrase: if you were never doing anything that had you relate to other people in this indirect way, like in my examples I've given you, would you be OK*?


I'd be fine.


> What instinctual stackings are you considering for yourself? I'm borderline on sx/sp vs sp/sx  ..well I'm pretty sure on sx>sp but I can pass for sp>sx very easily, people tell me so, and I can see why... just my internal experience differs as I do not find sp that interesting and I'm not neurotic about it in any way whatsoever, it's something that's just really simple to deal with and too much of a focus on it would be boring.


Sp/so sounds more accurate for me at the moment. I definitely know I am self-preserving, seeing as to how I don't exactly reveal too much about myself. The way I'm answering these questions is evidence.


> Haha ok, do other people comment on it too? I'm told it's cute etc.


Never paid attention to whether people do or not.


> Oh then we misunderstood each other there originally. OK, this makes sense then


*thumbs up*



> Which last part, thinking about goals?


Yes, because I don't need to think about them much if I've mostly got it figured out. 



> OK same for me, except I do like to follow through.. as long as my vision (=goal) is there and it doesn't just go away on its own that easily  *Do you not have that?*


Not really. Unless it's something I consider important.



> Yeah I don't really go with the flow in many situations. In friendly ones, maybe.


Hmm.



> I'm not sure how you connected analysis to knowing if you enjoy an experience?? Explain your train of thought here, not following, lol.
> 
> I was talking about making sense of experiences and situations, not about enjoyment of them.


Because I do both at once. That's why. 



> Surely you've seen differences in how the two types do this?


Not really.



> OK so then this was just a misunderstanding too.


Perhaps.



> So you always have the awareness of your environment on a basic level, always knowing where you are? Or does it ever turn off and if so, how bad does that feel to you?


I always know where I am and I've never in my life been lost. That never turns off.



> Yeah I considered that before, that enneagram plays a role here in strengthening Se. So I would be like an ESTP with extra Ti and no Fe, but easier to explain it as ISTP with extra Se.


I see.



> Same with navigating and maths stuff too? Just out of curiosity...


Navigation, yes. That's the same. I don't give a fuck about math, though. In fact, while I don't have issues understanding advanced math, I find it boring. Rather work with my hands.


> OK, yeah, it's cool to feel validated in your thinking.


Glad to see you understand!



> What's his type btw?


We're both ISTPs. His dominant Enneagram is 5w6. Unsure of his tritype and don't care to figure it out.



> Lol that picture, ok, that's more veiled, yeah. But I notice the positions of the men compared to the woman, for sure. :tongue:


It's always more veiled in Rococo paintings.


> Ha, you mean, the logic makes it real? roud:


"That's real" is a slang term that means "I understand."


> Lol. I don't really cry much either. But if I watch some sport races that might do it. Idk why :crazy:


Maybe there's something about sport races that get to you. Not inherently a bad thing.



> Edgy in what sense?


A lot of them tend to act as though they don't have any feelings. Most ISTPs (including myself) are really not that tough. We appear to be on the outside due to our defense mechanisms but deep down we're typically soft as hell. 



> OK so we do agree on a lot here. I'm also in touch with some of my stuff, *maybe that's gut triad in general?*


Seems like it.



> I never thought it was evil. Upsetting when feeling out of control, maybe, I do hate that, but that's not the same thing.


I see.



> Hmm interesting strategy of informing others in advance, maybe I could use it. Though a difference is that I don't feel the need for that bit of space, I'm more focused on the problem and solving that problem. *When do you need this space?*


When I start feeling myself becoming more annoyed.



> Er if I'm not pissed off then there is no negative lol. So I don't get the idea there. ?!? Yeah I don't relate to the peace focus or being understated about positive stuff.. gotta be the* enneagram *roud:


Must be.



> Can you say more on how it was alienating those people?


Sorry, but no. Too much of a personal story I don't wish to share.


> Yeahh, that's one of the reasons why I don't relate to a lot of ISTPs :tongue:
> 
> Glad you appreciate it






> Well I had a lot of experience with adversity myself. I explain a lot of the E8 stuff by it. It didn't exactly make me open or anything but I did also have positive experiences a very long time ago.. my E8 mind idealizes it a bit  that is what ensures I'm not so closed off all the time.


With my childhood experiences, they explain a lot of the E9 behavior much as your experiences explain your E8 stuff. Another Enneagram difference.



> Do let me know, I'm really curious about this. See my response to ketchup too about how much / how little I relate to the actual looping. If we define it by totally "kicking" Se out, then no I didn't have that much looping going on, just for shorter time periods inside the longer period of something resembling the loop with Se less emphasized than usual and Ni more emphasized than usual. If you mean that's not quite the loop itself, just halfway to it, ok.


This should help explain the Ti-Ni loop. Most ISTPs who've been there relate to this. Category:WTF Years - Istp Wiki - Wikia



> Well I mainly was talking about how it's not age related for me to have outbursts or not. In the first Ti-Ni period I didn't have any of that anymore. No Fe basically. Then I got out of that, I got back to my previous state again in terms of that... so even though I aged, I don't find I really changed in this area. It was not dependent on age, the changes. I guess for me it's part of normalcy :tongue: I don't aim to get rid of all emotionality even if some of it is not controlled enough. That's still better than having none whatsoever.* Make sense?*


I get it.



> Maybe I'm wrong and should learn to have perfect control, but I don't care for perfection :tongue:


I don't care about perfection, either.




> OK well for me it's more like, 1) I don't know you and I'll never see you again, so I don't care; or it's like, 2) I may or may not know you and may see you again or not, but it's irrelevant as I'm currently focused on this problem, so I don't care about what you think of me; or 3) I'm right now not focused on any tasks or on solving problems, we could be socializing here, we'll spend time together later too, so yeah I care if you think some bs about me or not. A bit higher Fe here than some other ISTPs :shrug
> 
> See what I mean? I guess you don't relate?


I do relate. However, you didn't state it in this way before. This is more linear and straight to the point. Strangers, fuck their opinion. Friends? Okay, sure. I care about what they think.



> With friends, sure, same.


*thumbs up*



> Eh, 24 hours or more time with friend or two friends, sure happened before, that was all fun. I of course always take those microbreaks I talked about.. so no problem. Half a minute, even less, or a few minutes at most. Also, some of the time is spent by me alone actually, while the others do whatever. I would read a book or go for a run or whatever. Though I appreciate it if they want to join for the run


I see.



> Do you do the microbreaks like I do it? Does just looking around or going around a bit alone recharge you quickly like I describe it?


If I'm around my friends for extended periods of time and can't exactly ditch them, then, yes, but ultimately I'd rather just go home at that point. 



> Ah, heh, I don't need alcohol for that, just good fun company. Alcohol doesn't really do any more than that to me. So you do sound more introverted than me  ...and if there is no people who are fun and make me involved then I'd better just leave, so I'm not exactly that extraverted either :tongue: I could try to use alcohol to get involved then, maybe, but I don't see the point, tbh. I remain pretty controlled no matter how much I drink, actually.. what I do truly depends on the company more than the drink.


I don't need alcohol to talk to people at school, or anything like that. With parties, yes, because I absolutely do not like being around crowds of obnoxious ass people while I'm sober. So, I figure, "Hey, might as well join them." It makes for hilarious stories afterward.



> I was asking you if you would be irritated like I would be if I'm there around people but I'm not getting involved, just passive all the time. Do you relate to this at all?


No, I would not be irritated, so no I do not relate.



> Hmm, when I'm left alone after these meets, I guess it does take me a couple days before I think of contacting them again so that does make me an introvert - but if they contact me again soon I'll be responsive no problem. I guess there is a limit even for me though.. e.g. when I visit my mom's, I do have to tell my very extraverted brother after a while that I want to read or focus on whatever else right now. Hard to shut him up, lol :tongue: Most people I know aren't this crazy :tongue:


I see. I'm just one of those people who won't even respond unless I feel like it, or if it's very important.



> Ah that's not what I was talking about. I meant the Mechanic label for the ISTP is something very specific and I don't happen to relate to it. The Doer label is easier to relate to because it can include other activities. Otherwise I'm indeed more a specialist, more into deep knowledge, than a jack of all trades. I could be "just doing" stuff but I would feel that lacking, not enough Ti there. Make sense?


I understood what you meant.  But I do relate to the mechanic label for ISTP, despite not working with cars and machines. I relate to it because I utilize it all the time. 



> So anyway, I don't relate to mechanic/craftsman, you do?


I do. However I don't look at the label in a literal sense. I'm not immediately thinking, "Oh, ISTPs work on cars or something." Ti can be applied in so many different ways anyway.


> OK, ok, more 8 for me there :tongue:


Definitely.



> I didn't resent all rules, just if they got in my way or didn't make sense. What did you ask about in terms of extracurriculars?


I was asking if your teachers ever pressured you to take extracurriculars.




> What do they do that's annoying micromanaging?


Hovering over my shoulder while I'm doing something, telling me how to do something instead of letting me do it independently, and not giving me space whatsoever. This pisses me off.



> It's a silly oversimplification to assume they aren't being honest with themselves.* It could just as easily be simple cluelessness while trying to learn more about themselves, simply not knowing themselves at all, or not understanding that they shouldn't go by moods.*


Regardless, my opinion still stands. Not disagreeing with the bolded part, but a lot of ISTPs do fear getting to know their own feelings. That's what I'm referring to.



> Yeah, they tell me I'm asking these analytical questions, that I express myself in a precise "mathematical" way that I seem to expect from others too, incl. that it's hard to nitpick on my way of expression lol, and just in general how logical I seem.


Yep.



> Well can you show me some pictures so I can see we are talking about the same "resting bitch" face thing? But for sure, I definitely do have this face that is just me being ready and observant and rather unemotional but it does not look simply neutral for some reason :crazy: Apparently some people *like* it though.. an INFJ for example really commented on it in a positive way


I really don't feel like posting pictures of myself right now, but since you asked nicely here you go. An example of what my default Ti stare looks like:










> Do you have the more detached calm face too? That I mentioned I have as well. That one is more truly neutral.










This is my face when I'm taking in my surroundings. 



> Also, earlier you mentioned:
> 
> So how did they figure it out what it is, so that now they get it, and don't take it to heart, how did they get to know you better?


I tend to become a little more animated and expressive in conversation. When left alone, I have that default Ti stare going on so it puts people off until they talk to me and realize, "Oh, she's not that bad."




> No, I've never been asked if I'm sad when I wasn't sad. Intimidating, more than sad.


I get both just as often.


> Ohh where do you get Ne this good. See mine in comparison doesn't exist :tongue:


By hanging around INTJs. 


> Alright, just informing you then that I don't think you're SLI. :ninja: Based on the stuff so far. Which test was it if you still remember?


That's fair. To be honest, I don't really care enough about socionics to bother figuring out my type. And I don't remember what test it was. 

But, hey, I'm pretty bored now. I'm not exactly interested in answering anymore questions for the time being, so it'll be a few days before you get another response from me lol. Feel free to send more, though. I'll answer on my own time.


----------



## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

> But, hey, I'm pretty bored now. I'm not exactly interested in answering anymore questions for the time being, so it'll be a few days before you get another response from me lol. Feel free to send more, though. I'll answer on my own time.


OK. I'm posting a -relatively- shorter reply myself anyway. I don't think I have any more questions much, just really on those Fe topics and some things on Ti/Ni, where I'm really interested if you can say more. 

And, overall, what impression do you get of me in terms of type. Would you agree I'm a somewhat more extraverted version of ISTP? With enneagram influencing that (8 being a pretty extraverted type). Or some weird ESTP. Or...?




Saturnian Devil said:


> I'd be fine.


OK, I don't know why that difference. So you say you aren't interested in being in competitive environments and in doing stuff that is not only your own personal project but has an impact on other people too (in a good way of course)? ..I do have those private personal projects too, always had them, of course, but that's not enough for me

Tbh, they used to be enough, having the private projects and sometimes competing with/fighting with people as the only means of making contact with them, but after I got into that 1st period of Ti/Ni stuff, something fundamentally changed in me and now I also like doing stuff that creates an impact, including impacting people positively. Having such an impact is quite inspiring for me. And it may require a focus on really long term projects, which I also love having since that Ti/Ni period.




> Sp/so sounds more accurate for me at the moment. I definitely know I am self-preserving, seeing as to how I don't exactly reveal too much about myself. The way I'm answering these questions is evidence.


I'm told the same by others and that's how they justify their Sp-first typing for me.. It's more like I don't show that much to most people, though. It is different with people close to me. 

Hmm anyway I did notice you got pretty terse in your replies now while originally you talked a lot about your stuff. No particular reason, just bored? 




> Yes, because I don't need to think about them much if I've mostly got it figured out.


Well it's just a way to kill time, for me, pretty satisfying =p Because I love working for my goals.. they are so inspiring. So thinking about them is also enjoyable like that. You don't care for that then?




> Not really. Unless it's something I consider important.


That was another thing on goals. Yeah, of course it would be the important stuff that I was referring to, though I like to finish everything else too.




> Because I do both at once. That's why.


Enjoying experience and analysing it..? ok. 




> I always know where I am and I've never in my life been lost. That never turns off.


Same, yeah.




> Navigation, yes. That's the same. I don't give a fuck about math, though. In fact, while I don't have issues understanding advanced math, I find it boring. Rather work with my hands.


I'd word it a bit differently in my own case - it's a bit overly theoretical, I'd rather apply it to something. That's when I do really enjoy it. I don't necessarily need to work with my hands for that but that's ok too




> Maybe there's something about sport races that get to you. Not inherently a bad thing.


Didn't say it's a bad thing  I think it's the struggle, the momentum, stuff like that moves me. I don't know if you relate to that. I see it as very Se really 




> A lot of them tend to act as though they don't have any feelings. Most ISTPs (including myself) are really not that tough. We appear to be on the outside due to our defense mechanisms but deep down we're typically soft as hell.


Edgy = cool? (I'm not a native speaker of English, looked this up now, not sure if you meant that.)

Anyway, I would rather not psychoanalyse this now.




> When I start feeling myself becoming more annoyed.


OK, so E9 thing.




> Sorry, but no. Too much of a personal story I don't wish to share.


OK, I wasn't going to ask about personal stuff of course. But if you can talk about a general understanding of how people can get alienated, that you got from this experience but without revealing personal details, that'd be cool, and pretty helpful.




> This should help explain the Ti-Ni loop. Most ISTPs who've been there relate to this. Category:WTF Years - Istp Wiki - Wikia


"The state of a Dom - Ter loop typically only arises if the ISTP is in a state of cluelessness, or aimlessness. They wouldn't be labeled WTF Years if ISTPs had a direction and goals, now would they?"

I do not relate to this. My first Ti/Ni period, I actually thought up a direction and goals from the Ni. It was so satisfying. I didn't get into that Ti/Ni period due to aimlessness either... more like, I just didn't care about being with people anymore due to whatever changes in my situation - so this Ti/Ni stuff is what was left for me instead. This is not how ISTPs usually get into it?

I do however agree with this very much:

"Once the ISTP obtained a clear direction everything will sort itself out for as long as he won't stray from his path, in that sense, time works in favor of the ISTP" 

The second Ti/Ni period, that did have a lot more to do with losing direction and then finding direction again, yes.

I don't really agree with the idea that simply forced attention on Se is needed to break the loop. Just finding some pastime that involves Sensing wasn't gonna break it for me. The more effective thing to break it was more like, think up direction via Ni, then go and put it into reality, with Se indeed starting up at that point.

Would you agree with that?




> I do relate. However, you didn't state it in this way before. This is more linear and straight to the point. Strangers, fuck their opinion. Friends? Okay, sure. I care about what they think.


Oh originally I was assuming it was about certain situations only so that's why I didn't get into details on it. And btw it's not just friends, it's acquaintances too. As I said, a bit higher Fe than yours, it seems..?




> If I'm around my friends for extended periods of time and can't exactly ditch them, then, yes, but ultimately I'd rather just go home at that point.


Well I start doing the breaks much sooner. I'm fine going on that way. I would be fine with staying and with going home too. Though if it's a particularly great time then I have more of a preference of staying for a bit more 

Also, I was specifically asking if you do it like me, going around alone or playing with some inanimate object, etc. ? I kinda feel like this is engaging Ti+Se instead of Fe. Not just Ti but Se is still there, so it does not feel like 100% introverted mode as I'm not disconnected from the world, just Fe is switched off by withdrawing. 




> I don't need alcohol to talk to people at school, or anything like that. With parties, yes, because I absolutely do not like being around crowds of obnoxious ass people while I'm sober. So, I figure, "Hey, might as well join them." It makes for hilarious stories afterward.


Yeah I was talking about the party context only myself. 




> No, I would not be irritated, so no I do not relate.


Hmmm ok....again I feel like I'm a bit different with my Se/Fe being higher than ISTPs's 




> I see. I'm just one of those people who won't even respond unless I feel like it, or if it's very important.


And again that Se/Fe.




> I understood what you meant.  But I do relate to the mechanic label for ISTP, despite not working with cars and machines. I relate to it because I utilize it all the time.
> 
> I do. However I don't look at the label in a literal sense. I'm not immediately thinking, "Oh, ISTPs work on cars or something." Ti can be applied in so many different ways anyway.


I didn't think of cars specifically. Just of someone who tinkers with appliances's functioning. This is what I'm not particularly interested in. I do have some fleeting interest in the underlying logic itself but I never have a goal with it so I never spend the time on this stuff. I didn't explain this before but this is another difference I see between ISTPs and myself; I need a goal with stuff I'm doing. 

So like, if there was a competition or if I had some other goal, I'd have no problem with getting into how these things worked and tinker with them. I actually have done so with a few things, such as computers tho' there I was more on the side of dealing with software interfacing with the hardware, not the hardware itself though the workings of the hardware was what interested me in the first place and I did have to understand how it worked to be able to tinker with/create the software interfacing with it directly. 

But if no goal with it.. then if something breaks in the house, I'll just call an actual mechanic. I don't have time to figure it out myself if I never spent time on this stuff before.

See what I mean?




> I was asking if your teachers ever pressured you to take extracurriculars.


No and I wish they had cared more because while they did send me to a lot of competitions, which was quite fun, they usually didn't bother enough with preparing me for the more serious competitions, which could have been in terms of extracurriculars. That was really anything from maths to sports and I still resent it how they didn't spend more time with me so I could have won all the country finals. When I say they should've spent time with me I mainly mean directing me about what to learn, how much to learn, what to practice/train (in sports), to actually those win country finals etc., otherwise I was always fine studying alone. OK so you can see I'm very competitive 




> Hovering over my shoulder while I'm doing something, telling me how to do something instead of letting me do it independently, and not giving me space whatsoever. This pisses me off.


OK that would be annoying lol, I'd tell them I know how to do it. 




> Regardless, my opinion still stands. Not disagreeing with the bolded part, but a lot of ISTPs do fear getting to know their own feelings. That's what I'm referring to.


Oh, ok.




> > Yeah, they tell me I'm asking these analytical questions, that I express myself in a precise "mathematical" way that I seem to expect from others too, incl. that it's hard to nitpick on my way of expression lol, and just in general how logical I seem.
> 
> 
> Yep.


You mean you get told the same?




> I really don't feel like posting pictures of myself right now, but since you asked nicely here you go.


Ohh, nice of you, I was actually not asking for personal pictures, just whatever random pictures online that you think illustrate it well. But thanks anyway, you look cool 




> An example of what my default Ti stare looks like
> This is my face when I'm taking in my surroundings.


Yeah I can see some similarity between us 

We both have that Ti look that to me is a detached calm look on its own, you do have that in the first picture; and then you also have something besides it that I would think is Se and the lack of "nice feelings" (unemotional instead). I have that too, yeah. 




> I tend to become a little more animated and expressive in conversation. When left alone, I have that default Ti stare going on so it puts people off until they talk to me and realize, "Oh, she's not that bad."


Makes sense, of course, I'm the same way




> By hanging around INTJs.


INTJs have Ni though, not Ne 




> That's fair. To be honest, I don't really care enough about socionics to bother figuring out my type. And I don't remember what test it was.


OK. I think it's an interesting theory, in some ways better than MBTI, so if you ever care to check it out and have questions on it, feel free to nag me anytime :laughing:


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

Alright, I know I initially said that it would be a few days before responding, but I'm very hyped up on caffeine (long day at school), so I'll go ahead and answer these right quick. I would've answered your last post much fully but I was bored, tired, and trying to get to class so I was more or less concise.



myst91 said:


> OK. I'm posting a -relatively- shorter reply myself anyway. I don't think I have any more questions much, just really on those Fe topics and some things on Ti/Ni, where I'm really interested if you can say more.


I see. Yeah, I don't think I have a whole lot else to say on Fe or Ti/Ni, though. I'll see what I can do regarding that, but I won't make any promises since I've pretty much covered the majority of it.



> And, overall, what impression do you get of me in terms of type. Would you agree I'm a somewhat more extraverted version of ISTP? With enneagram influencing that (8 being a pretty extraverted type). Or some weird ESTP. Or...?


You seem STP to me for sure. While you do use metaphorical statements, I chock that up to your being an Enneagram 8. I've noticed that sensors within the gut triad tend to be more attuned to their intuition, though they might not always be aware of this themselves. 

Besides that, I can't say whether you use Ti or Se more, preference-wise, because you seem to prefer both regardless. Which is fine. That said, my only suggestion is for you to choose what you personally feel is best. If you feel like an ISTP (and you can still pass as a social, energetic ISTP, by the way), then you're an ISTP. You won't always relate to everything associated with the ISTP type description and that's totally okay. The same could be said about ESTP: You might not always relate, which is fine. 

Simply put: if the shoe fits, wear it with pride. You know yourself best, after all.



> OK, I don't know why that difference. So you say you aren't interested in being in competitive environments and in doing stuff that is not only your own personal project but has an impact on other people too (in a good way of course)? ..I do have those private personal projects too, always had them, of course, but that's not enough for me


Nope, I'm not interested in those kinds of environments. See, this is my reason behind why: I am not one to compete with other people, because I find the very idea of it to be rather trivial and pointless. I am not trying to be better than anyone, and to me, that is what competition is: who can be the best. I'm honestly not that egotistical. 

As far as competing with myself, on the other hand, I _do_ challenge myself just to see how far I can go. I'm not being influenced by the outside world, or by others' opinions of me in this case. If I succeed at creating a painting, I'm naturally going to want to see if I can do it again - but not the same as before. I'm going to want this painting to be even better than the last. Mastery of skill. 

With personal projects, I have to be honest here: It doesn't exactly matter to me whether or not my personal projects have a positive or negative impact on others. If they like something I create, I'll be flattered, but I won't be upset if they dislike it. I am rather indifferent in this regard.



> Tbh, they used to be enough, having the private projects and sometimes competing with/fighting with people as the only means of making contact with them, but after I got into that 1st period of Ti/Ni stuff, something fundamentally changed in me and now I also like doing stuff that creates an impact, including impacting people positively. Having such an impact is quite inspiring for me. And it may require a focus on really long term projects, which I also love having since that Ti/Ni period.


The only time I get into fights with people is if I am the one being provoked, and in that case, it is self-defense. But I do not go out seeking fights. I don't see the point in doing so. It's a complete waste of my time. I wouldn't want someone starting a fight with me, so why the fuck would I do that to other people? It's dumb to me. However, that is just me speaking as an Enneagram 9.

To be honest, though, I personally think that the whole thing about you wanting to impact people positively is due to your need as an Enneagram 8 to be respected and looked up upon. Which is fine, I guess. This is just where you and I differ greatly on, as I don't exactly care too much how anyone outside of my circle of friends and acquaintances sees me.



> I'm told the same by others and that's how they justify their Sp-first typing for me.. It's more like I don't show that much to most people, though. It is different with people close to me.


Well, yeah. Self-preservation types don't open up to just anyone, and if we do, that is pretty much an honorable position for the other people to be in. It takes a very special type of person to be allowed into a SP's inner circle to begin with, so what you're saying isn't even a surprise to me. Sadly, this is a bit of a problem area for those who aren't self-preserving. Oh, well.



> Hmm anyway I did notice you got pretty terse in your replies now while originally you talked a lot about your stuff. No particular reason, just bored?


Yeah, I know. No worries, though. It's nothing personal against you, in case you were unaware. I was simply really bored, tired, and in a hurry to get to class. I tend to be terse when in a hurry. 



> Well it's just a way to kill time, for me, pretty satisfying =p Because I love working for my goals.. they are so inspiring. So thinking about them is also enjoyable like that. You don't care for that then?


I see. Nah, I definitely don't relate to you here.



> That was another thing on goals. Yeah, of course it would be the important stuff that I was referring to, though I like to finish everything else too.


Makes sense. Once something is finished, that's less stuff to worry about since it's in the past.



> Enjoying experience and analysing it..? ok.


Yeah, it makes sense to other ISTPs, but I don't expect everyone to understand this train of thought.



> Same, yeah.






> I'd word it a bit differently in my own case - it's a bit overly theoretical, I'd rather apply it to something. That's when I do really enjoy it. I don't necessarily need to work with my hands for that but that's ok too


When something can be applied practically, that IS a rather nice thing, I agree. I just have a stronger preference of using my hands more than anything else, though.



> Didn't say it's a bad thing  I think it's the struggle, the momentum, stuff like that moves me. I don't know if you relate to that. I see it as very Se really


Nor did I imply it was. XD But I get what you're saying. I may not be into sports myself, but I do find a fascination with airplanes and racing. It's the adrenaline rush. I love it. Just rather use my Se in different ways personally is all.



> Edgy = cool? (I'm not a native speaker of English, looked this up now, not sure if you meant that.)


Yeah, that's what I meant. And don't worry about it, your English is actually a lot better than some native speakers - and that's something I really hope you are proud of. (That is a compliment, by the way.)



> Anyway, I would rather not psychoanalyse this now.


It's all good. Feel free to get back to me on that whenever. 



> OK, so E9 thing.


Yeah, I'd say so. 



> OK, I wasn't going to ask about personal stuff of course. But if you can talk about a general understanding of how people can get alienated, that you got from this experience but without revealing personal details, that'd be cool, and pretty helpful.


Phew! You'd be surprised by how many people want to know the details. -.- 

Generally, though: I used to be someone who'd intentionally shut out everyone who mattered to me when trying to deal with a problem heavy on my mind. Eventually I found myself alone and rather depressed. This was during my Ti-Ni loop mentioned earlier. I found that if I'm stressed out, it's better to write down how I feel about it, so that I can be aware of my behavior might affect those who actually mean a lot to me. 



> "The state of a Dom - Ter loop typically only arises if the ISTP is in a state of cluelessness, or aimlessness. They wouldn't be labeled WTF Years if ISTPs had a direction and goals, now would they?"
> 
> I do not relate to this. My first Ti/Ni period, I actually thought up a direction and goals from the Ni. It was so satisfying. I didn't get into that Ti/Ni period due to aimlessness either... more like, I just didn't care about being with people anymore due to whatever changes in my situation - so this Ti/Ni stuff is what was left for me instead. This is not how ISTPs usually get into it?


The Ti-Ni loop is different for every ISTP. You're not going to always be able to relate to every single thing described in that article. That is just a generalization, that many ISTPs happen to be able to relate to. If anything, your Ti-Ni loops don't sound particularly unhealthy to me. The ones you're describing are actually rather normal, so it isn't something you should dwell on, IMO.



> I do however agree with this very much:
> 
> "Once the ISTP obtained a clear direction everything will sort itself out for as long as he won't stray from his path, in that sense, time works in favor of the ISTP"


As do I. It might have taken me a bit longer to figure out what I wanted to do with my life (I finally figured it out by the time I was 21), but once there, it felt like a heavy weight was lifted off my shoulders. So, I just work toward those goals on a day to day basis without overthinking the what-ifs. If something happens, oh well. Having those backup plans I mentioned earlier do help, as well. You never know when I might need to fall back on them.



> The second Ti/Ni period, that did have a lot more to do with losing direction and then finding direction again, yes.


That's more of an unhealthy one, yeah. At least you've managed to snap out of it. How long was this loop, if I may ask? 



> I don't really agree with the idea that simply forced attention on Se is needed to break the loop. Just finding some pastime that involves Sensing wasn't gonna break it for me. The more effective thing to break it was more like, think up direction via Ni, then go and put it into reality, with Se indeed starting up at that point.
> 
> Would you agree with that?


I understand what you are saying, but I have to disagree. The thing is, regardless of _how_ you get to the point where you use Se, you are_ still _using it to get out of the Ti-Ni loop. Sure, Ni can assist Ti in helping you figure out what to do, but the fact is: you're still only able to break out of the loop by taking action (Se). Plain and simple.

Does this make more sense now? 



> Oh originally I was assuming it was about certain situations only so that's why I didn't get into details on it. And btw it's not just friends, it's acquaintances too. As I said, a bit higher Fe than yours, it seems..?


I don't think that has much to do with Fe levels, honestly. As long as you're still being considerate of people around you and not completely dismissing everyone, it's still healthy Fe. Also, acquaintances don't count as strangers to me. They may not be my friends, obviously, but they are _tentative_ friends. Meaning there is potential there. Of course I'm not going to want to tread on their toes.



> Well I start doing the breaks much sooner. I'm fine going on that way. I would be fine with staying and with going home too. Though if it's a particularly great time then I have more of a preference of staying for a bit more


This isn't exactly related to what you're saying here, but I will state this anyway. The only time I would probably stick around despite social exhaustion is if it is late at night. It's not exactly safe to wander around alone at night, and my great-grandparents would rather me be safe somewhere than risk the outdoors at such a late hour. I'd simply be doing my own thing at this point, though, and not interacting much with the friend who allowed me to stay. That's only because my friends understand how I function, and don't take it personally.



> Also, I was specifically asking if you do it like me, going around alone or playing with some inanimate object, etc. ? I kinda feel like this is engaging Ti+Se instead of Fe. Not just Ti but Se is still there, so it does not feel like 100% introverted mode as I'm not disconnected from the world, just Fe is switched off by withdrawing.


I do that kind of stuff regardless of whether or not I'm around people because it's in my nature to play around with inanimate objects even when I'm not socializing. Especially if I am bored. Fe withdrawal is however something I do relate to. I'm known to "zone out" from conversations after a point - especially if it's something I don't care about - only to be sucked back in when something of interest comes up. 



> Yeah I was talking about the party context only myself.


Got it. 



> Hmmm ok....again I feel like I'm a bit different with my Se/Fe being higher than ISTPs's


Did you grow up around feelers by any chance? Just curious, because this is a factor. 

Most ISTPs who grow up around feelers tend to be better with inferior Fe anyway. They may not be able to relate to others' emotions all the time, or react in the same manner, but they are a little more relaxed and not as put off by feelings as some other ISTPs.



> And again that Se/Fe.


Probably.




> I didn't think of cars specifically. Just of someone who tinkers with appliances's functioning. This is what I'm not particularly interested in. I do have some fleeting interest in the underlying logic itself but I never have a goal with it so I never spend the time on this stuff. I didn't explain this before but this is another difference I see between ISTPs and myself; I need a goal with stuff I'm doing.


I know that. That was just me making a general statement about how many people tend to assume ISTPs ALL work on cars just because we are described as mechanics. 

But, yes, I understand where you are coming from. Personally, I do have a tendency to logically pick things apart because I want to learn more about them. Wanting to learn about something is _still_ technically a goal. 



> So like, if there was a competition or if I had some other goal, I'd have no problem with getting into how these things worked and tinker with them. I actually have done so with a few things, such as computers tho' there I was more on the side of dealing with software interfacing with the hardware, not the hardware itself though the workings of the hardware was what interested me in the first place and I did have to understand how it worked to be able to tinker with/create the software interfacing with it directly.


The difference between you and I in this regard seems to be that our reasons for choosing to do something are drastically different. However, we are still both very interested in things and will try to understand them regardless. 

So, I think it's safe to say that there isn't too much of a difference here besides the _reasons_ why we do things.



> But if no goal with it.. then if something breaks in the house, I'll just call an actual mechanic. I don't have time to figure it out myself if I never spent time on this stuff before.
> 
> See what I mean?


I do see what you mean. Honestly, I would rather fix things myself if I already possess the knowledge. Even if I don't have the knowledge, I will still learn because I do not like to rely on others to fix my own problems. Now, if I absolutely_ cannot_ figure it out on my own, only then I will call someone with the skills. In this case, though, I'd be watching how they do things as carefully as possible. This way I learn, and don't need to call them again. 



> No and I wish they had cared more because while they did send me to a lot of competitions, which was quite fun, they usually didn't bother enough with preparing me for the more serious competitions, which could have been in terms of extracurriculars. That was really anything from maths to sports and I still resent it how they didn't spend more time with me so I could have won all the country finals. When I say they should've spent time with me I mainly mean directing me about what to learn, how much to learn, what to practice/train (in sports), to actually those win country finals etc., otherwise I was always fine studying alone. OK so you can see I'm very competitive


Ah, okay. I wasn't exactly interested in extra-curriculars myself. Never really cared much, honestly. After school was over, I just wanted to go home or do something I cared about and be away from school. The way I see it, what is the point of me being at school still, if I can just go somewhere else and do the same thing?

Anyway, yeah. I see what you mean about having wanted guidance on what to learn, how much info you needed to learn, and whatnot. That does make sense, at least for you. Personally, I don't need that all of the time.

Based on what you've said above, though: I really do think your external competitive streak is the Enneagram 8 manifesting itself again. That's where you and I definitely differ. I know I've already said this before, however, but just reiterating it regardless.



> OK that would be annoying lol, I'd tell them I know how to do it.


Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm not stupid. Stop treating me like I am. 

(Not you, obviously. That's just my thought to those micromanaging me.)




> You mean you get told the same?


I've been told that I'm extremely logical, yes.




> Ohh, nice of you, I was actually not asking for personal pictures, just whatever random pictures online that you think illustrate it well. But thanks anyway, you look cool


No problem. I figured providing photos of myself would be more spot on, since it's actually me, and not some random person on the Internet. I think it's better to use yourself as a reference when it comes to things such as facial expressions, as everyone is pretty unique in this regard. 

But thank you for the compliment. 


> Yeah I can see some similarity between us
> 
> We both have that Ti look that to me is a detached calm look on its own, you do have that in the first picture; and then you also have something besides it that I would think is Se and the lack of "nice feelings" (unemotional instead). I have that too, yeah.


I get that a lot, actually. I do think that the Ti stare in the first photo I showed you is the one that seems to scare off most people. They think I'm pissed off or about to kill someone, and I can understand why they think this. But I can't exactly help myself. It's my neutral expression, after all. 

The second photo, however, not so much. That's the one in which I apparently seem friendlier. I think it's possibly because Se tends to be a little less intense than Ti in general. At least, that is how I personally see it.



> Makes sense, of course, I'm the same way


Yeah, I think this is the similarity both ESTPs and ISTPs have in general.



> INTJs have Ni though, not Ne


I know that. This is my reasoning, though: 

Most of my close friends are INTJs. When I was first getting to know them years ago, they didn't make a lot of sense to me, and I had to externally intuit what they were trying to say in order to understand. This got easier over time, hence the Ne development. 

Furthermore, I am also an artist. Artists are actually required to be able to notice patterns and we especially have to possess the ability to conceptualize. I would not be successful in my field if I lacked Ne. Se alone isn't enough, to be completely honest. Conceptualization, as much as I do not prefer it on a personal level, is still important because it helps me in the long run. 

It doesn't make me any less of an ISTP, though. Just means I have an advantage because I'm not exactly limiting myself to analyzing things via the literal Ti-Se fashion, even if this is my strongest preference to begin with. 

Now does this make sense?



> OK. I think it's an interesting theory, in some ways better than MBTI, so if you ever care to check it out and have questions on it, feel free to nag me anytime :laughing:


Will do!


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

ketchup said:


> Good discussion in this thread...but I don't have much to add...
> 
> Do you see yourself in this, even slightly (I know it describes a really extreme case - but do you see a hint of it in yourself at times)?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if this was directed toward @myst91 or myself, honestly. Either way, I must admit that I don't relate to anything described with the HPD. I can imagine a very unhealthy ESTP and ENFJ behaving in such a manner, however. 

But, yeah. I have never experienced an Se-Fe loop. That actually sounds terrifying compared to the Ti-Ni loop, in my opinion.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Saturnian Devil said:


> I'm not sure if this was directed toward @_myst91_ or myself, honestly. Either way, I must admit that I don't relate to anything described with the HPD. I can imagine a very unhealthy ESTP and ENFJ behaving in such a manner, however.
> 
> But, yeah. I have never experienced an Se-Fe loop. That actually sounds terrifying compared to the Ti-Ni loop, in my opinion.


It was directed at myst91, sorry. Should have been clearer. Yes, it would be a very unhealthy example of the type for it to get that extreme. An extreme case of bypassing the auxiliary, for sure. Generally people don't experience auxiliary-inferior loops, so it makes sense that as an ISTP you wouldn't have experienced this particular loop. To me at least the extraverted loops sound more terrifying than the introverted ones, don't know why that is, especially as I am an extravert...


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