# Forgiving and Vengeful types?



## Goliath (Aug 28, 2014)

Honestly, unless pursuing "vengeance" is necessary to achieve a goal it doesn't really phase me. I just cut out people that don't matter from my life, and move on. At one point, my father tried to screw with me financially and I found a way to get it back what I lost in time, for instance. But I needed the money. 

In fact, more often than not I forget how people may have wronged me. I am forgetful to a degree and have a difficult time even remembering what happened in the past between me and some people, unless it is something huge.


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## WeirdRaptor28 (Aug 25, 2014)

I remember the only time I ever really lost control of myself was when the dog from The Walking Dead game bit Clementine and I just left it to die because I fucking hated that moment and I was aware that it was just a game. I regretted it so much afterwards because I knew I couldn't blame the dog for acting so hostile. But I really thought they were going to be friends. It's... PAINFUL! :'(

Other than that, I'm forgiving to the point where I just let insults fly by even though it's hurting me deep down because I always choose to look at the good in others. And once I get to know them, I'm prone to overlooking all their offenses because I know the pain they must be feeling and I just want to forgive them. 

*sigh*

INFP stuff. lol


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

donnie darko said:


> I only support punishment if a person needs to be confined for the protection of others, or it's just a fine or something like that. I don't agree with punishing people merely because they "deserve it", that seems childish and petty to me.


The phrase "confined for protection of others" really bothers me because that phrase has been used to hurt countless people, but... That aside. (I know you probably didn't mean it that way, you me any like a serial killer should be in jail so he doesn't kill any more people, but that wording is still dangerous to me). 

I honestly just even have a hard time with things like police officers, jails, laws, courthouses, judges...? I know they're necessary, and I only go against police officers when they're abusing their power, but the structures of punishment are things I don't value. I mean I get that they're there, but I'm not a person who's ever going to be able to take a Crime in America class without feeling sick... I just don't get it, plainly 

Even when they said to me, "But what if your parents were killed, wouldn't you want their murmured to get the death penalty?" Admittedly, I've never been in that situation, but... no. That doesn't make sense to me. They killed my parents, but it's done now. I don't want them to kill anyone else, but taking their life isn't going to give me theirs back. 


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I guess I didn't feel this way about my abusers... I wanted them thrown in jail. Heck, I still do, even though that's a daydream. No one will ever know the extent of what they did to me, unfortunately  while at first I was just pretty angry, wanting them to... know what I felt like, you know... now I just think about it and want them to stop hurting people. That won't happen unless they're punished, unfortunately, but who knows. They might all think about that little girl they tortured someday and have a change of heart


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## Mair (Feb 17, 2014)

Not always vengeful but xSTJ types can be unforgiving.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Awkwardacious said:


> Bad people have their reasons for doing their bad deeds. I believe nobody is purely evil (except maybe psychopaths, but that's because they lack the power of emotions).


No, I agree. It makes total sense. It's a crude understanding of human nature and reality to label some people as "evil". I don't like to use the word, myself, because then the labeler assumes moral superiority, and I feel like the highest superiority is actually in realizing there _isn't_ superiority. But it's as though people do that for psychological comfort rather than explore the issue at hand and what might have gone into it.

If I may make a confession. I can tell you, right now there are probably a lot of people who consider me evil. I've gone through really hard times, and become a regular anti-social asshole, destructive, physically aggressive, unfriendly (I don't act this way on this forum, though). And not one person asks what it was I went through to get in this state, they just assume I'm a jerk and forget about it. And that basically reinforces my idea that the world is an awful place, and I keep using the same behaviors. I guess it's inherent proof that I'm more on the "vengeance" side of things, but I can also see past it.

No one seems to get it that people _aren't_ born evil, it's the things that life does to them that twists them. Other times, there's simply a conflict of interest, sides are taken, and the other side vilified. But either way, they're still people. I get that. It doesn't stop me from being a jerk right now due to traumas (I'm not a real IxFP, after all), but it does allow me to see past norms and into the real issue at hand. 

And it's all pretty messed up if you ask me.


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## JTHearts (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm certainly vengeful. I don't let people get away with slighting me. I'm ESFJ.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Every action deserves a commensurable reaction.
If someone did me wrong they could rightfully expect the same from my end.


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## StoneMoon (Dec 23, 2013)

Definitely forgiving here. When I was a child I sometimes wondered if there was something wrong with me, since I was always pretty much incapable of feeling hate, jealousy, vengefulness and all that jazz. It was never a moral choice or internal battle (or something) for me, but something I just couldn't feel. The more people did awful things to me or others the more I tried to be their friend. It never crossed my mind to shut them out, unless they completely shut me out. Now I realize it's because I always automatically saw the situation from the point of view of them as well as anyone else.

Now I'm very much comfortable that way.

I think it's more about individuals than personality types though.


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## Tetsuo Shima (Nov 24, 2014)

SFJs are usually the most vengeful, but even though I'm an NTP, my enneagram tritype (especially the 8 part) combined with the way that people usually treat me makes me very vengeful.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

I will have a forgive but never forget attitude towards friends and family members. Depends how wrong their action was. If it was something small then I will forgive them quickly. I would lose some respect for them though.

If they did something _really _bad, and has no right or reason behind it, then I would be vengeful in a way. I would probably do it by becoming passive aggressive and ignoring them. I dont like this about myself, but I would only do this because I am not very aggressive and therefore would not be very good at confronting them about it.


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## Awkwardacious (Aug 11, 2014)

Kipposhi said:


> No, I agree. It makes total sense. It's a crude understanding of human nature and reality to label some people as "evil". I don't like to use the word, myself, because then the labeler assumes moral superiority, and I feel like the highest superiority is actually in realizing there _isn't_ superiority. But it's as though people do that for psychological comfort rather than explore the issue at hand and what might have gone into it.
> 
> If I may make a confession. I can tell you, right now there are probably a lot of people who consider me evil. I've gone through really hard times, and become a regular anti-social asshole, destructive, physically aggressive, unfriendly (I don't act this way on this forum, though). And not one person asks what it was I went through to get in this state, they just assume I'm a jerk and forget about it. And that basically reinforces my idea that the world is an awful place, and I keep using the same behaviors. I guess it's inherent proof that I'm more on the "vengeance" side of things, but I can also see past it.


I'm sorry you had to go through that..  Those people who call you "evil" are just ignorant palookas k, don't mind em. 

Honestly, I don't really have friends in real life and I can somewhat understand what you're going through. I'm not by any means destructive or violent, but I've always been extremely anti-social and everyday I hope that one person would come up to me and be my friend-- or at least, notice me. Notice that I'm not okay, that I'm hurt, that I'm very lonely, NOTICE THAT I NEED HELP. Until today, no one seems to give a damn about me. I'm just...so irrelevant in their lives. Sigh.

As for your case, I think no one has come to ask what's going on with you because they're scared. I'm not suggesting you to change your behavior or anything, but I feel like you should try to tone down your aggression and also try not to mindlessly shoo the next person that approaches you. Some people may actually be nice enough and care about you-- or are curious to your being-- but because of your attitude, they may think it's not really worth the effort. 

Best of luck to you. I hope your life (and mine!) will get better soon. <3


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm more inclined to believe that this correlates more with enneagram than it does MBTI.

I am a vengeful type.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I agree it's more of an enneagram thing,and both 2 and 4(my most likely cores) can be fairly vengeful,but I try to not create too much trouble for myself even when I'm getting revenge.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Awkwardacious said:


> As for your case, I think no one has come to ask what's going on with you because they're scared. I'm not suggesting you to change your behavior or anything, but I feel like you should try to tone down your aggression and also try not to mindlessly shoo the next person that approaches you. Some people may actually be nice enough and care about you-- or are curious to your being-- but because of your attitude, they may think it's not really worth the effort.


My fault for sharing.

Best of luck to you.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

I've put some recycled reckful in the spoiler.


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In a type-me thread at INTJforum where the subject ended up concluding that she was most likely an INfj — but only after having spent some significant time thinking of herself as T and P, so... maybe close to the middle on T/F and J/P in any case — she said this at one point:



> I take a rather deterministic view of behavior, so I don't think it's worth assigning blame to a person; they took whatever action for whatever reason, so if we want to prevent it in the future we have to change the behavior, and punishment has a lot of drawbacks compared to other behavior modification techniques. I don't think there's any value in 'making them pay', barring restitution. I understand that there is some emotional vindication in doing so, but I think that money could be better spent on helping victims recover.


And this is how I reacted:

I consider myself a strongly-defined INTJ (albeit with the Limbic complication), and all that stuff you posted about not blaming people and not punishing people feels very alien to me — and whenever I refer to something as "feeling alien," that generally means I'm inclined to think it may well be on the other side of some temperament divide or other.

I'd say I have a pretty strong self-righteous streak, and I tend to think that's something I_TJ's tend to have in common. The ISTJ's morality may be more conventional and the INTJ's more philosophical, and the INTJ may be more inclined to cut a break to someone with an underprivileged background or whom the "system" could otherwise have been said to fail, but I think both kinds of I_TJ's tend to have a pretty strong internalized sense of integrity and a gut drive to adhere to the golden rule, and an accompanying tendency to get anywhere from mildly bent out of shape to enraged when others break the golden rule.

Imagine you're in a huge traffic jam because of some accident or something. Some selfish dog-eat-dog type pulls out onto the shoulder of the road, drives past 20 or 30 cars and then cuts back in the line. Don't blame him? Don't want him punished? Or, if he is going to be punished, want to administer some really minor punishment, due to the "minor" nature of his offense?

Fuck that. In reckful's dream world, and assuming the queue-jumper is over the age of, I don't know, 25? — I say, why can't there be some huge island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean where guys like that get sent to live the rest of their lives with their fellow dog-eat-dogsters, so the rest of us don't have to ever deal with them again? And you may say, but reckful, such a huge punishment for such a minor transgression?! And I'll say, I'm not sending him away because of what he did. Because of what he did, we now know _what kind of person he is_, and we're sending him away because he's that kind of person. And, I mean, come on, if he's that kind of person, we know he's going to spend his whole life pulling shit like that, right?

And you may say, reckful, are you really being serious about this? If you were in charge, is that really how things would work? And I'll say, well, no, not exactly. But the point is — those are honestly the kinds of thoughts that my seething gut inclines me to have as I watch that guy pull out onto the shoulder, and I do think that principled self-righteous streak of mine is a pretty typical I_TJ thing.

I'm a political lefty with a strong sense that, as a society, we fail a lot of our less-privileged citizens in their childhoods and teenage years, so I'm not a merciless guy by any means when it comes to crimes that are arguably there-but-for-the-grace-of-God cases. But posit me a theoretical world where that problem's gone away — or a case where there are clearly no extenuating circumstances — and show me a selfish guy breaking the golden rule, and my gut says punish punish punish punish punish.​
To elaborate a bit, there's a famous old metaphor that's always resonated for me along the lines that a wrongful act is a tear in the moral fabric of the universe that remains unmended until justice is done. The idea of some guy callously doing something selfish and inexcusable that harms somebody else (especially in some serious way) and _getting away with it_ — happily living the rest of his life without ever having to pay a price — really _rankles_ for me, and my desire for "justice" (or "punishment" or "vengeance" or whatever) doesn't hinge on me or anybody I know or care about having been the victim. Tell me to assume, for the sake of philosophical argument, that punishing that particular guy will result in _no_ deterrent effect for either him (in terms of the rest of his life) or any other prospective wrongdoer and I'll say, "So??" I agree that deterrence is an important (and arguably the _most_ important) reason to punish people for crimes, but it's not the only reason. Barring extenuating circumstances, people who commit golden-rule-violation (at least) crimes that harm others should also suffer for their crimes for the simple reason that they freaking well deserve to suffer for having committed that crime. That's what my gut says, anyway — and loudly, to boot. And, as I already noted, when my gut speaks that loudly — and in a way that's recognizably common, on the one hand, and yet also _not_ shared by the guts of a pretty sizeable portion of the population — I tend to suspect that one or more of the hard-wired temperament dimensions is probably involved.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I don't even know how to hold a grudge; I never have a feeling of 'wanting revenge' or 'wanting justice'. I just...don't have it.
But I feel that people should take responsibility for their own actions and accept those consequences. If they make a mistake, they should take actions to correct it. 
I hold people to a high standard of behavior but I'm very forgiving as well, if that makes sense.


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## Harizu (Apr 27, 2014)

donnie darko said:


> What personality types do you think are "Forgivers" and which are "Avengers"? Forgiver meaning they tend to let things go, feel sympathy even for their enemies, don't agree philosophically with the death penalty, etc. and avenger meaning they demand retribution for wrongs done to them and people they love and are more about "justice" than "mercy".


By your definition, I am definitely vengeful.
I let things go if I don't think they are important (for example, if someone "insults" me I won't even care and I'll forget about it really easily); but if I feel that someone has really wronged me, like hell I'll forget. I might bottle my anger up for a long time, but I definitely won't forget. And sooner or later I'm gonna find a way to get back at that person.


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## Twitchie (Apr 2, 2015)

I've gone both ways on it. I think it all depends on the situation.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

INTx and enneagram type 9 here. I don't really get the concept of revenge as I've never had any desire for it and don't form grudges, but I'm not exactly into forgiveness either (more indifferent toward it). I don't think I tend to perceive things that way, I just focus dispassionately on what objectively happens.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I think most likely vengefulness and forgiveness is going to be more closely linked to emotional maturity than any specific type. I can imagine just about any type being either forgiving or vengeful.

But with that said.... and I really couldn't say about most other types, but at least in my experience I have found the INFPs and ENFPs to be very empathetic having compassion on those who hurt them because they can imagine the pain that has brought someone to the point of hurting others, focusing more on understanding _why_ someone has gone bad rather than passing judgement on the actual actions. And I have found ISFPs and ESFPs to have a 'past is past, let's just move on' attitude and more likely to view it as 'it's _their_ problem not mine, I won't let their bitterness ruin my life' rather than getting themselves stuck dwelling in resent. Obviously I have only a small sampling of these types so I can't really say if my observations apply to all, but I do feel like the strong Fi folk I've run across at least have been more likely to pity mean people rather than plotting vengeance.

In theory it seems like Extroverted Judging may be a bit more inclined to enact justice for the sake of the greater good or focus more on following a clear system of rules about what people shouldn't do. 

On the one hand one might expect feelers to have more empathy for their enemies, yet it seems likely enough that an immature, damaged feeler might get too hung up on how bad they feel and want the other person to understand their pain by making them feel just as bad. 

And it seems like thinkers would be less concerned with empathizing and more focused on the practical results of someone's actions and holding them responsible for consequences (both the natural consequences and any punishments that may be enforced). Yet, they also seem a bit less likely to take things personally and dwell on resentful feelings, being a little more detached from mean actions done to them.



(personally I don't understand grudges or holding onto resent, it was never really something I had to learn to grow out of even... it just never appealed. I've always felt like 'killing with kindness' is the best method if you want someone to change and become a better person, and that is a far greater triumph than simply making them hurt like they hurt you, turning your enemy into your friend will prevent a vicious cycle from developing. I'm not really comfortable with straight justice, I want mercy and second chances, and I guess I'm not super attached to the idea of holding people responsible for things, I dunno.... I can to some extent appreciate justice when it's a natural consequence, but not so much when it's another person enacting justice on someone. I find mercy so much more admirable.)


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## Hero of Freedom (Nov 23, 2014)

I am both for some reason. I will remain vengeful to those who have wronged me but I will forgive right away if I know they are sorry and have changed. I would also be very glad/happy for them if they knew what they did was wrong and are sorry for it. But I will continue to hate them if they are not sorry for what they did and do not admit what they did was wrong.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

angry! I must get my revenege!! 5 minutes later, anger passes. lol its all peachy


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## Ik3 (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm a forgiving person, because quite frankly, I do a lot of fucked up stuff. 

My forgiveness is kinda like an IOU, because I know I'm gonna want that shit back eventually.


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## Awkwardacious (Aug 11, 2014)

Kipposhi said:


> My fault for sharing.
> 
> Best of luck to you.


I apologize. I probably shouldnt've said it the way I said it. In fact, I probably shouldnt've said anything at all regarding your case. But hey, if you wanna talk, hit me up anytime!


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## Valkyrie_feathers (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm not the forgiving type - I won't waste my time and empathy on bad people.
I can forgive a simple error, but if someone does something bad deliberately, I dust my hands of them. 
No vengeance, but I'll never talk to them again.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Awkwardacious said:


> I apologize. I probably shouldnt've said it the way I said it. In fact, I probably shouldnt've said anything at all regarding your case. But hey, if you wanna talk, hit me up anytime!


I appreciate that. Thank you.


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## Ghostsoul (May 10, 2014)

In a fit of anger I swear revenge, then an hour later forget all about it and apologize.


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## dracula (Apr 5, 2015)

I forgive easily if it's something less serious with which I simply cannot be bothered. In other cases, I hardly confront people if I'm not sure it would be useful, I just either avoid them or act passive aggressive while looking for a way to get back at them. Once this is solved, I either get back to normal or just continue avoiding them. But yeah, confrontation isn't really my type of a thing so I'll find a way to get my revenge in silence and then just want nothing to do with them unless they admit they were wrong.


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## donnie darko (Oct 12, 2012)

Awkwardacious said:


> I'm just like this. I'm INFP, and though I'm what most would consider a really kind person, I tend to always feel such strong dislike towards whoever treats me unkindly or unfairly OR if one underestimates me (even jokingly). But if those people eventually apologize or treat me nicely some other time, I would immediately like them again. Like, just zap. I'm fine with you again.
> 
> But for those people who have never done me wrong-- be it murderers or whatever, once I hear their side of the story (and it is usually pitiful), or understand the reasoning they did what they did (and could relate to them in some way), I feel like I just wanna go to wherever they are right now and give them a hug and save them from whatever punishment they're about to face.
> 
> ...



It's always seemed a bit cruel to me to hate psychopaths and sociopaths, when it's not THEIR fault they aren't able to empathize normally. It's the same kind of mentality that would support the death penalty for children.


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## donnie darko (Oct 12, 2012)

Awkwardacious said:


> I'm just like this. I'm INFP, and though I'm what most would consider a really kind person, I tend to always feel such strong dislike towards whoever treats me unkindly or unfairly OR if one underestimates me (even jokingly). But if those people eventually apologize or treat me nicely some other time, I would immediately like them again. Like, just zap. I'm fine with you again.
> 
> But for those people who have never done me wrong-- be it murderers or whatever, once I hear their side of the story (and it is usually pitiful), or understand the reasoning they did what they did (and could relate to them in some way), I feel like I just wanna go to wherever they are right now and give them a hug and save them from whatever punishment they're about to face.


I agree with you completely. One of the few things that makes me see red is when someone thinks they are better than me, like they won't even talk to me if I ask or say something to them, or they quip a hostile sarcastic remark to me. But if they apologize I will forgive them immediately, unfortunately types like that are usually too proud to ever say they're sorry.


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## donnie darko (Oct 12, 2012)

CrudeAsAButton said:


> Ohhhh yes, I seem to have endless empathy for bad people. I was reading about this revenge porn site guy who got 18 years in prison and I immediately felt it was too harsh. Then I read the comments section of everyone saying things like "GOOD," "He deserved it!" And then I second guess my empathy.
> 
> However, being a 4w5 and also jealousy prone, I've found that I can have a serious vengeful streak when unhealthy. It's ugly.


Oh god, yeah, the hatred towards sex offenders is insane. Obviously things like rape and molestation are very serious, but some people act like it's worse than genocide or something. I've even heard people say they consider murder not a big deal in comparison! I actually think the sex offender registry is counterproductive, not to mention completely illegal under the Constitution. I think once someone leaves jail they have paid their debt to society, we might as well just keep them in jail for life if we are going to brand them as untouchables and deprive them of a chance to make a living.


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## donnie darko (Oct 12, 2012)

Miharu said:


> I think it depends. I tend to value justice over mercy though. If 'sorry' is all it takes to be forgiven and free of crimes, what are cops and laws for? Sorry only works for mundane things. There are some things sorry cannot alter/make better.


I find it interesting how INTJs tend to be pretty vengeful. Though being rational people, they aren't insanely bloodthirsty like some other types can be. Like my best female friend is an INTJ and she's pretty forgiving in some ways but can be pretty hardass too when it comes to things like crime.


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## donnie darko (Oct 12, 2012)

I think the ISFJ/ESFJ types can be vengeful in a "momma bear" kind of way too, but forgiving towards harm done to themselves. I think they are compassionate and forgiving to their loved ones but tend to be ruthless towards their enemies.


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## Tangled Kite (Apr 16, 2014)

I don't like the idea of punishment for the sake of punishment, like a straight across the board you get x number of years if you do x crime. I just seems like there should be more flexibility given the numerous factors that could be involved. Generally, I believe some form of rehabilitation should be tried first before any hard punishment is applied. 

I think more often than not the reason people commit crimes is because they have been hurt in the past in some way. Just throwing them in jail for x number of years isn't going to do anything except maybe exacerbate the problem they had in the first place. Then when they get out they usually commit more crimes. It does nothing for them and it does nothing for society at large.

As for people who wrong me personally I'm usually pretty forthcoming with forgiveness. I try to understand why they did it and try to remember that yes, you can try to put yourself in someone else's shoes but unless you've actually been in them you really don't know. If they really don't seem to know that what they did was wrong then I will let them know, but if they show true remorse then I will forgive them. I don't know how I would react if someone were to do something truly awful to me or someone close to me.


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## NurseCat (Jan 20, 2015)

I am an INFJ and I'm extremely vengeful, however I think generally Si-users are the most likely to hold onto things and think about revenge.


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## Rice (Apr 27, 2014)

I wouldn't necessarily say I forgive, but I do let things go pretty easily. It already happened, it's in the past, just don't keep doing it or I really will get pissed off.


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## The Nameless Composer (Sep 20, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> I am extremely vengeful. If someone wrongs me I feel the need to pay them back in equal measure.


Better than ten times over like some people I guess.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)




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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

When I was younger I wanted my pound of flesh. As I've matured, I've abandoned that mindset. Instead, I want to extend mercy, because I know that I've made so many mistakes of my own.


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## Awkwardacious (Aug 11, 2014)

donnie darko said:


> It's always seemed a bit cruel to me to hate psychopaths and sociopaths, when it's not THEIR fault they aren't able to empathize normally. It's the same kind of mentality that would support the death penalty for children.


Oh don't get me wrong. I don't hate psychopaths or sociopaths. I was just saying that nobody's bad from birth. And even til people get older, I believe nobody is truly evil.

Psychopaths and sociopaths are generally considered unlikable people because of some of the things some of them end up doing. And true, some of the things FEW of them do can seem pretty dark and illogical and just plain inhumane (at least to most of us). Whether they are evil or not is not for me to judge. I don't understand the things they think or feel. Maybe the way I said it came out like I considered them an exception. Like, "Everybody is good-- except psychopaths/sociopaths." No, not at all. We're all humans. But since they are the minority, and they are different to most of us, and because of that, it leads most of us to perceive them as the antagonists.

Anyone can be considered good or bad depending on who sees it. Whether one lacks empathy or not has less anything to do with whether they are bad or not. It's all relative anyways.


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