# Had to bring this article here to see reactions from both men and women



## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

The Awesome Temporary Power Of Young Attractive Women


^ I saw this on facebook, not so sure I agree with everything they say but I do agree with some of it. Should spark some good discussion I hope, keep it civil please.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

I think I get this sense sometimes. Older guys are attractive to girls and younger girls are attractive to men. It's not always true if true at all but I get this sense sometimes. I don't completely agree with the article. It's kind of messed up the way they made male reactions totally sexual and uncontrolled.


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## Sunn (Mar 12, 2014)

Penguin said:


> The Awesome Temporary Power Of Young Attractive Women
> 
> 
> ^ I saw this on facebook, not so sure I agree with everything they say but I do agree with some of it. Should spark some good discussion I hope, keep it civil please.


I'd be a liar if I said I never had the same thoughts as a man but I'd be a pig if I openly accepted that it happens all over society. That's why I dont really agree with yogapants/spandex fitted for girls under the age of 12 even if it's 'comftorable'.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

_"There are no good men. Why can’t I find a man? Where have all the men gone? Well, ladies, the “good men” are out there trying to sleep with much younger women. I think to myself, you know how lonely and desperately horny you feel right now? Aching to have even a semi-attractive, non-disgusting man want to spend time with you and make love to you? Well, this is payback for when you were young and had a sea of men in your orbit. You flirted with them and wasted their time. You mocked them for their horniness and neediness. Now you know their suffering. It is your just retribution."_

Yea. I'm almost thirty now, and the dating scene is very confusing having been in it last at 19, lol. I was a bit of a self-entitled bitch.

I don't agree with this though - 
_
"Sadly, for aging women, there is no suit they can put on"_

There is too. Joy, a sense of humor, EYES. I've seen it in action. Vitality. There are twenty year olds who are totally dead (think younger Kourtney Kardashian piller types...I, can, sentence...I'm bored now - and then there are older women who are totally vivacious).
_
"Many men hate the fact that attractive young women cast a spell over us. Unless you inhabit a horny man’s body, you can’t even begin to appreciate how intensely a beautiful woman affects us, how we struggle to stay focused when you are around. Maybe one reason men seek to be players is that it helps weaken your power over us. We dislike that your very presence draws our attention to thoughts of fucking, no matter what we may need to accomplish at the moment. We resent that you have it so easy in life just because you are thin and pretty, whereas we have to earn every kindness that comes our way. You say life has not been that easy. You complain that your boyfriend cheated on you, but an older woman has no boyfriend. You complain that you got in trouble at work for your performance, but a less attractive woman never got hired in the first place."_

It's kind of true probably....


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## DemonD (Jun 12, 2012)

There's nothing really surprising in that article.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

I find it so odd that the general reaction from females to this has been "well...yeah"

kind of surprising to see that a lot of women at least on some level realize the struggle...and admit that they continue to act selfishly. 

He's right about us with fat chicks too, the large majority of men wouldn't dream of leading on some fat girl just to get a free meal or some attention. I know I wouldn't and I've had plenty of opportunity for that sort of thing. 

Anyway this is why I took a vow of celibacy for the next 9 months. I'm a young fairly attractive male and I just got sick of sex being such a large part of my thought process so I'm done with it for the better part of this year. Call it a rebirth. So far its been incredibly freeing, and women just like...don't even understand whats going on.

The parts of this article that I don't agree with are the ones that paint women as THAT self centered, sure some are, but I think a lot aren't as well, although the majority of 22 year old girls do tend to think that the world is just a nice place which makes me lol....


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Sigh. This is something I'm afraid of in regard to aging. I don't want to become invisible, but it's inevitable.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Sigh. This is something I'm afraid of in regard to aging. I don't want to become invisible, but it's inevitable.


hi!

you have art that is quite good so you'll have that at least. 

but this kind of thing is why I'm baffled when guys get married to average girls in their 20s....its like oh you're missing out on the best part where you have all the power dumbdumb


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## Kingdom Crusader (Jan 4, 2012)

I couldn't help but think this is a gross exaggeration of how things are. When a guy looks at me, I don't get the vibe that he wants to screw me. 

And the thing about women in their thirties (and up) not attracting men is not true. I'm about to be 37 and I've been attracting more men than I've ever when I was younger. This is after having a kid! I'm sure this is true with both women and men. In fact, I've been getting 18 to 21-year-old guys talking to me in the last several years, when I actually do go out.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Asian_Chick said:


> I couldn't help but think this is a gross exaggeration of how things are. When a guy looks at me, I don't get the vibe that he wants to screw me.
> 
> And the thing about women in their thirties (and up) not attracting men is not true. I'm about to be 37 and I've been attracting more men than I've ever when I was younger. This is after having a kid! I'm sure this is true with both women and men. In fact, I've been getting 18 to 21-year-old guys talking to me in the last several years, when I actually do go out.


they probably just want to talk to you for the conversation since you dont feel...nvm not worth the effort.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

Note to self: Never leave the house in less than a turtle neck and baggy denim trousers. Ugh.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Penguin said:


> hi!
> 
> you have art that is quite good so you'll have that at least.
> 
> but this kind of thing is why I'm baffled when guys get married to average girls in their 20s....its like oh you're missing out on the best part where you have all the power dumbdumb


Hi  

Haha, yeah I have that, and then I'll probably get dementia and paint potato Jesus. Have you ever seen that painting? The one of Jesus that an old lady was hired to restore and totally destroyed? That'll be me!  

Well, looks aren't everything, at least to me, but attraction is important. I'm just hoping the Mr. still genuinely thinks I'm beautiful when I'm wrinkled and grey. That would be ok with me.


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## Kingdom Crusader (Jan 4, 2012)

Penguin said:


> they probably just want to talk to you for the conversation since you dont feel...nvm not worth the effort.


Are you implying that when men look at a woman that they automatically think about having sex with her? It's an honest question. 

I'm not naive to the fact that some guys around me do look at/compliment me because I look "exotic" to them. I just never really associated it with what this article is talking about.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

the only time looks matter at all is in relation to sex... its so wasted on beautiful women who couldn't care less about having sex. 

as far as your husband goes I have no idea tbh haha


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Asian_Chick said:


> Are you implying that when men look at a woman that they automatically think about having sex with her? It's an honest question.
> 
> I'm not naive to the fact that some guys around me do look at/compliment me because I look "exotic" to them. I just never really associated it with what this article is talking about.


in general yes that is in fact true its more of a reflex but yes pretty much your whole life.


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## Kingdom Crusader (Jan 4, 2012)

Penguin said:


> in general yes that is in fact true its more of a reflex but yes pretty much your whole life.


Nice to know...


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Asian_Chick said:


> Nice to know...


cant believe no one ever told you.


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm calling bullshit. Maybe some, but I find 'all' hard to believe. Then again, 'all' is just about always never going to fit properly.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

For the record: I've known ugly girls who became beautiful women, and older women who are still gorgeous. I've known women who never met the physical ideal, and some who very consciously used their natural appeal. Beautiful on the inside? Almost all of them were complex and unique human beings who easily earned my attention and respect. One story makes a short novel.

I will however speak for my experience as a guy, and the article wasn't far off. My wise mind wants to treat women as full human beings because that's how I can genuinely relate to them. It's aggravating when my dick gets in the way of that. My solution? I learned to talk to more women whose beauty intimidated me so that I could practice habituation. *self-conscious grin* Maybe I'm still learning that 'cause, when a beautiful woman flashes me that smile, and totally engages with me in that moment - like we're two people who are really enjoying each other's company - well, it still knocks me off my feet. Really, it's not their fault, and I've dressed up in nice duds often enough to see the opposite can be just as true.

I'm not into the schadenfreud that the author gets from young women aging out of their beauty. Life gives us plenty of opportunity to learn what we need to learn, so I'm swell on that. Still, I'll say this: I still get a particular joy listening to the women I know in their 20s talk about what really drives them and pursuing their passion. I don't believe I would have that exact pleasure if some of the author's argument hadn't resonated with me - and it does. Still, to be young, beautiful, and using your awareness to build a fully satisfying life? That is lucky.


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## clairdelunatic (Mar 20, 2013)

Wait -- can I ask a question of the guys here?

Do the following statements from the article ring true or mildly to very exaggerated or false?

If you encounter about 1000 men between the ages of 13 and 80 over the course of your year, probably 80% of them are fantasizing about having sex with you.

In fact, a man has no power over what compels him. His attraction is raw, visceral, and when not reciprocated, painful.​


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Penguin said:


> It's mutual trust me..
> And the only reason it came up was because people like to point out that guys like that "never get laid" when the fucked up truth is that they get it way more than much nicer guys. I've been both and I'm moving away from the viewpoint expressed by that website currently.
> 
> I'm trying to be open in order to give people perspective but they view it as some sort of attack....


Everyone has values and sometimes they don't match at all times. This is human.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Everyone has values and sometimes they don't match at all times. This is human.


Yet I don't launch personal attacks when mine doesn't match someone else's.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Penguin said:


> I think categorically speaking only rapists fit into the second however its a bit hypocritical to use extreme examples in your statement in order to get a point across and then bash an article you haven't even read on the other merely to garner favor...
> 
> and yes I can objectively state your motive because you admittedly havent read the article and you still have an opinion on it meaning that your most likely basis for such an opinon is to say the most favorable thing.
> 
> #99%oftheinternet





Penguin said:


> Yet I don't launch personal attacks when mine doesn't match someone else's.


Orly?


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Mee2 said:


> Orly?


Notice abject use of logic and objectivity in those statements. I didn't say you were a bad person.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

It's a pretty harsh article and doesn't really have insight into the minds of attractive young women. Not that I'm all that young anymore at 33. But then... I haven't become invisible yet.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Penguin said:


> Notice abject use of logic and objectivity in those statements. I didn't say you were a bad person.


So calling my argument hypocritical and asserting my post was motivated by self-interest (implying that it should therefore be disregarded) somehow doesn't count as a personal attack? (I'd challenge you on both of those points, by the way)


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> It's a pretty harsh article and doesn't really have insight into the minds of attractive young women.


I feel like you're often schooling the rest of us on this.

What do you look like? :kitteh:


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> I feel like you're often schooling the rest of us on this.
> 
> What do you look like? :kitteh:


Schooling you on young women? I'm not that young. Blonde hair, dark blue eyes, 5'9" and a 137lbs with an unimpressive rack.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> Schooling you on young women? I'm not that young. Blonde hair, dark blue eyes, 5'9" and a 137lbs with an unimpressive rack.


Nope, just assuming that you have the feminist stance that is "right" or something. Schooling everyone in that way. Everyone's an idiot and/or less attractive who has just never even thought about your "correct" sexier point of view before. 

You do sound kinda hot though...so I'll give you that.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Nope, just assuming that you have the feminist stance that is "right" or something. Schooling everyone in that way. Everyone's an idiot and/or less attractive who has just never even thought about your "correct" sexier point of view before.
> 
> You do sound kinda hot though...so I'll give you that.












:tongue: I can't help it.


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

South Park - Season 11, episode 14: "The List"

It's basically this whole thread, only more entertaining... and it's free to watch too.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> :tongue: I can't help it.


No need to jump all over the table m'lady 










There's a balance


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

I'm gonna bow out here, its clear others are much better at this than I am...

and its been brought to my attention that I'm kind of a douche, I'm working on that.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> No need to jump all over the table m'lady
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm fucking charming and you know it. 



Penguin said:


> I'm gonna bow out here, its clear others are much better at this than I am...
> 
> and its been brought to my attention that I'm kind of a douche, I'm working on that.












You know, Disney had leads that weren't any worse than you and they got the girl... I'm just sayin'


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

^disney is whats wrong with America but that's a different thread haha


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> I'm fucking charming and you know it.


I gave you props on that  You're not alone though. Which is fun. Because one day we could create a charming club. Everyone has a different super strength. Maybe even a sexual one, we're not sure.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> I gave you props on that  You're not alone though. Which is fun. Because one day we could create a charming club. Everyone has a different super strength. Maybe even a sexual one, we're not sure.


Well the guy that wrote the article believes in the power of the super vagina. It causes men to hand their shit over for a smile. Choke a man out. Create life. Can even open the cap off a beer bottle with a simple twist. But those super powers die out when you turn 40.


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## Ori_ (Dec 23, 2013)

the article is a bit hazardous, and probably socially unacceptable, but it's accurate and totally honest, but yeah, honesty is not socially acceptable in this era, it has to be judged first by some social standards and by what people want to hear, and if it passes all the morality tests, then they'll call it truth.

Anyway, it's true, at a certain age, beautiful women lose their power, they notice how differently strangers around them behave, they realize the power they had was sexual, just a lucky lottery ticket, and it had little to do with their talent, creativity or intelligence, they obviously knew it before, but they didn't experience the difference, they come back to earth, and they start to crave, the same type of craving of the people who smiled at them years ago, now it's their turn. Any person who had some experience in life would agree with this basic concept, unless they are disturbingly naive.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

All right - I have many thoughts on this (as usual).

First off, it would be interesting to know the age of the author, Sam G (who is single, btw...). The reason why I say that is because it is normal for *young men* to be attracted to *young women*. (Before I lose anyone - I am not saying that it is abnormal for young men to be attracted to older women or the other way around.)

Let me sort my thoughts here.... *rolls up sleeves*

*1) Maturity & Age*
I hate to play the age/maturity card; I generally stay away from that because I think that pointing out to someone that his/her opinions are age-related can be very disrespectful - however, in this post I will break my own rule. 
It is NORMAL for a GenZer or a GenYer, to be attracted to someone from the same generation. 
This fact makes it hard for me to take a GenZ:er/young GenY:er seriously when he states that "men only think about sex" and "men only want women under 25". Yes, that is what YOU want and what YOU experience RIGHT NOW and what many men YOUR age want, but you are not 50 yet. Chances are that you will change the way you see the world between now and then; you will have a different set of goals, dreams, value system, etc.

Bluntly put, if we would like to know what men in their 50s want, we need to ask men in their 50s. Surprisingly, many of them are actually married to women in their 50s... Do you really think your mothers and fathers don't sleep with each other after they are 30? Sorry about putting that picture in your heads, but seriously? lol

*2) Women & 'Power*'
Many (I am guessing most) women are NOT comfortable being seen as potential sexual partners solely. Some people claim that, generally, men bond through sex while women bond before sex. I think that there is some truth to that and that it is something worth keeping in mind. It also explains in part why many women do not enjoy being seen as sexual objects first and foremost.

To me this meant that becoming older/married and therefore less attractive was actually a plus in my book. I have never liked the wolf-whistling on the street and I never got flirting. I wanted (and still want) to be seen as a PERSON first, not as a woman, because that is the way I see myself. 
This meant that when I was younger, I never smiled at (or hardly ever even looked at) men and I deliberately stayed away from unknown men - even if I found them attractive or interesting. I actually hid a lot of myself in order to protect myself from unwanted attention and from accusations of ‘leading men on’ and being a 'tease'.
I have found that now as an 'older' woman, I allow myself to smile at men BECAUSE the smile I give them is less likely to be misinterpreted as an invite. I am more relaxed around men, because chances that I will be accused of ‘toying' with them have decreased. It is actually a feeling of freedom and liberation - I can let myself be who I am. I don't have to apologize for looking attractive and for being friendly and for - just - being - a - woman - !
(And as a side-note, many young men treat attractive women their age like crap BECAUSE they find them attractive.)

So, I have always taken more ‘pride’ in my mind than my body (that does not mean that I was/am a slouch). 
Similarly, I am too proud to be protected by/taken care of by/’bought by’ a man. I make more than enough money NOT to have to settle for a man because I need someone to pay my way. I can’t be bought because I pay for myself - and that should be a GOOD thing for both my partner and myself. But this also means that I am expecting the same in return – I am not an accessory created to boost someone’s self-esteem/ego, neither am I a breeding machine or my partner’s maid/mother/hooker. This has always been my stance, but younger men have had a harder time accepting this. 

One thing that some people seem to forget is the fact that I am, as are many people with me, monogamous. This means that I don’t care if other men find me sexually attractive or not – I only care if my partner does. As a matter of fact, sexual advances from men who know that I am married are more annoying and creepy than anything else and I guess this is the case for most married/committed people, independent of gender. 

Finally, I have personally never been into shallow men. Men who automatically sorted me out because I didn't look a certain way did me a huge favor. Thanks!  Since I don't see my attitude in regards to this ever changing, I am not too worried about the men who see me as over the hill.

*3) The Myth about Older Men*
Many men seem to believe that women are sexually or financially attracted to older men, but I suspect that the thing many young women are attracted to is the elevated level of maturity. 

a) First off, many men re-prioritize life and relationships when they get older. This is apparent when it comes to men who start their ‘second family’. They generally do things differently the other time around; take better care of/listen more to their children and generally prioritize their family more than they did the first time around, when the career was the main focus. Good for the second family, unfortunate for the first family. And as we all know, it is very unusual for women to have a second family, for several reasons – NOT only biological!

b) Men’s hormones level out, which allows them not only to see women as sexual beings but also as individuals. This makes the men more likely to appreciate other traits than just sexually related, which is something that many women in turn appreciate.

c) Self-esteem levels are often higher for more mature men, which means that they don’t feel the need to impress their peers with a ‘hot girl-friend’ or stories about all the women they have slept with (many of which they don’t even have the back-bone to say hi to). They care more about what they are attracted to and less what they think their buddies will envy. 

d) Just like many older women, many older men have more relationship experience, which means that they know what they want and what works for them. Many more mature people deliberately stay away from younger partners BECAUSE it takes time to mature. I was not into drama as a young woman, but I am even less into it now – today, drama it a deal-breaker and I have a zero-tolerance level policy!

e) Older men are not (as) competitive! Young men in the US are raised to be very competitive. They are also raised to believe that ‘beaten by a girl’ is one of the most shameful things that can happen. This is painfully obvious in the professional space, where some men in their late 20s to early 30s are an outright pain to deal with. They can’t see past the lack of Y-chromosome. 
Older men know through experience that there will always be some women who are smarter, more ambitious, and more successful than they are. These men accept this and use it to their advantage instead of working against it! You can guess whom a young woman feels more comfortable working with; the young hot-shot who sees her as an object to 'beat' or the older man who sees her as an asset to the team.

*4) Female Sexuality....*
I was hornier than any of my sexual partners in my early to mid-20s. To say that men's sex-drive is stronger than women's is not always true. 
Also, see my post below...


Finally, the comments under the article make me feel physically ill. So much hate for women – independent of age group – it's seriously disturbing and this is an excellent demonstration as to why feminism is still needed. Do we seriously believe that a man who writes comments like these will treat a woman as an equal in a professional environment, not to mention a personal relationship? These men do not see women as human beings; it is all too apparent from the way they write.
Seriously - these are some fucking disgusting, sick bastards! I hope that no women will ever fall for any of them. 
Their comments point to some sort of misplaced ‘revenge’ and about ‘putting women in their place’. Issues much!? Sad, sad, sad.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Enfpleasantly said:


> @_Penguin_, you do put a lot of emphasis on getting laid, haha. I mean, you have the right to live your life the way you want to.
> 
> That's the beauty in everyone being equally of value...we all get to live the way we want to as long as we aren't harming others. If some girl lets you treat her like meat (or maybe she was using you as meat?), well, that was her choice too.


Actually, I agree, why do some people still believe that women can not enjoy a ONS? Why do we assume that the women @_Penguin_ slept with were 'treated like meat'? If that is the way we see it, he was 'treated like meat' by the women who slept with him too, by default.

Chances are that the women Penguin met in the bars and had sex with picked up on the fact that he was only interested in sex - no strings attached - which is *why* they even bothered to have sex with him in the first place. Most people who go to a bar have already made up their mind in regards to their 'goal' for the night, be it getting drunk, getting laid, people watch, what have you.

There are women who like to have sex just because. There are men who don't like to have sex with strangers. It doesn't necessarily follow a gender pattern. 

He 'used' them - they 'used' him - they are all even and everyone is happy! (Unless he sucks in bed... Penguin, I hope your 'mentor' taught you how to please a woman after you succeed in 'picking her up'! lol)


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## stormgirl (May 21, 2013)

Okay, so after reading the article and all the responses here, I would agree that a woman’s “value” in a sexual sense does take a dive when she reaches her 30s. However, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that women change a great deal as they get older, usually because they have children! (Sorry if I just offended all the moms out there).


It has more to do with the energy a woman has than the number of years they are. I’ve known older women who are gorgeous and full of life, and they draw in men of all ages. Conversely, I’ve seen women much younger than me who are drained of all energy, and often lacking a sex drive. Not surprisingly, they don’t get much attention from men! I believe it’s the vitality that attracts men, more so than age.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

AriesLilith said:


> So charming and prettier people gets treated nicer, gets nicer attention, gets more smiles. Wear a suit and look pretty good, or whatever, and everyone will seem nicer to you. What's news here?
> 
> But what the article gives as impression is that the author holds some sort of hate or grudge towards women, talking about how men are just some hopelessly sexual beasts that are repressed and is only nice to women if they are pretty, and how woman's worth is only resumed to her looks that after 40 she will be forgotten. And all this is narrated as a form of getting back to the women.
> 
> ...


Perfect! I couldn't agree with this more.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

Asian_Chick said:


> When I first read the article, I so wanted to give this person the benefit of the doubt. But I can't help but have the words "rape" and "sex offender" enter my mind about the writing.


The way it feels like is quite similar to a mindset of a serial killer that kills women due to holding a bitter grudge towards them and wanting to get back at them. Like wanting to punish women for having the power, and assuming that they are all b*tches that uses their power on men for their own selfish goods.

The author do have some points, had he not written it so exaggerated and with much hate it would have been better.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Penguin said:


> I want to bring up something @Penguin mentioned way back 'cause I think it speaks to a lot of guys' experience.


Why not the men who disagree with you? Isn't our critique even _more_ relevant because we are after all men who to a degree have experienced exactly what you and Penguin describe? So why are we different from you for not falling prey to this issue? You don't seem interested in order to figure that out. 

Even most guys in this thread disagreed with Penguin by the way, which honestly seems to speak against whether this is truly and genuinely an experience of "a lot of guys".

Personally, I think this has more to do with social conditioning more than anything else.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

@Mr.Venture - I'll probably hate myself later for this post, haha, but you're being so honest....and I just wanna reciprocate - God damn you.

It's entirely possible that I *might* watch porn like twice a day. Because of it's evil powers? No, because I feel sexual and it exists, lol (if this even happens...). It does get harder the longer you go too, yea 

Don't feel guilty man. "Suck it!" yell the pious  (Ah, since deleted...) Get it? Power, dude. It's okay to take some back. I, personally, find it totally sexy. I don't want a man's nuts in a sack. I respect courage.

Know that the "crazy" women are doing just this too though (more honestly!)  How dare you not want to date me! Ask me to move across the country for you! Deal with that emotional spectacle just then! I'm getting over it - and remembering that appreciation isn't give to get.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> Also very confused with how being disgusted by that article makes you a radical feminist or how they relate in any way. The article was really a joke...not funny haha but a sad joke. It was maybe true for roughly 15% of men in the world. My best guess...and I am being generous.


I don't think anyone was suggesting this? I think the majority consensus is that he seems like a very angry, bitter guy with a ton of resentment for women, but some of us can see some of the truth in his article, which could've been written better. 

Remove the author's emotion and look at society. Women are pressured to fight aging. 

It's as though if a women has the ability to look at the idiot's article and pull apart the truth from the emotion, she is in some way supporting his radical beliefs. This isn't the case, at least for me.

My personal rants about radical feminism were in general, not really in relation to specifics of this thread.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

@Mr.Venture - I've had a different issue where I made friends with guys, then found out they were only being friendly because they wanted sex. It made me feel insecure. As though I had no intrinsic value as a person. It made me wonder if there was something wrong with me that men weren't willing to have a platonic relationship with me. I'm pretty but not stunningly attractive, so that would suggest that they didn't think I was worthy of their time unless sex was on the plate. It's hard not to be hurt by this. 

If celibacy/chastity helps, then by all means, go for it. If cutting back on porn helps, then by all means. I just don't see a purpose in the bitterness and resentment. The feeling isn't mutual in this case.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> I blame porn
> 
> I also have an unpopular opinion, one of women's great powers over men is sex. We own you there. Old or young we can have it whenever we want. Get over it.
> 
> ...


lol..... you and I perceive different realities and I'd rather not live in yours so this will be the only time I respond to you.

I find you offensive, I know that you're wrong, and I don't think your very open to accepting other opinions.

not to mention something traumatic had to have happened to you in order for you to hate men so much so I'm sorry about that.

have a nice life.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

@*Mr.Venture* thanks for the compliments


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Oh man @Penguin , you tryin' to alienate all the support we're getting here? *shaking head laugh* Rise above and let the haters hate.
@ephemereality Dude, why are gonna assume I'm not interested in what you have to say? I gave a shout out to Penguin 'cause I read his posts and thought, "hey, he's trying to communicate something I feel." Don't you like it when that happens to you? *corners wink*
@Enfpleasantly You are sooo right about confidence and loneliness being part of the mix. I don't know why it took so long to discover the power of listening to my head, heart, and gut - and trying to get them to work together - but I'm gonna blame the scars of the past and just be glad that I finally got there. No DOUBT that kind of interfering thinking happens way more when I'm feeling lonely and insecure and - 'cause I still happen to be alive ;-) - I figure it'll happen again in the future. I'm totally grateful these days that I have a plan of attack when I recognize it coming. You're right, the work is hard, but it's sooo worth doin'.
@monemi Ugh! Given your experience, you would probably not be surprised to learn how often I have had female friends tell me the exact same story. I'll tell you this: when I picture myself, I always want to be the "hero" in my own life. When it comes to relations with the same pool of people I form my romances with, being the hero also means being real and authentic, acting with compassion and integrity, and NOT giving to get. (That last one seems to be especially important for me to remember, but I'm also a Enneatype 2, so there you go.) I slip, and I fall, and sometimes the woman who trying to trust me decides it's safer not to. I feel sad in those moments, disappointed 'cause I know I failed, but no point in blaming them. We all have our own journeys. I don't know if it still happens with you, but I bet you're hella smart at spotting the one's who can keep their shit together now. Plus, I've got this sense that the people who know you irl look to you as someone who's really got her shit together too.
@Veggie , took me three read-throughs to understand everything you wrote down. I think your thought process is just slightly more random than mine, but I totally dig it. ('Suck it!' yell the pious? Roflcopters!) After much personal experimentation I don't think I could do that much porn. In my case I believe it honestly creates feedback that makes me lonelier. Even so, power to you Electric Girl.

To all the lovers on the thread so far ('specially @Enfpleasantly on this), loneliness attacked my confidence, which bred more loneliness. That sprang attempts to cure it by searching for more confirmation that I was still desirable and, when that wasn't happening, more porn. Unchanneled, that pain led to resentment toward others. With a little more self-awareness, I realized who really had the problem. Good solutions have been to take sex off the table entirely (helps simplify things enough to start tackling them), opening myself up to gratitude for the love people are already trying to show (damn, why is that so difficult?), and payin' attention to what my heart is really tryin' to tell me. This truck still requires lots of maintenance - but how am I gonna say I still don't want to keep her? *goofy grin*

Thank you all for the contributions.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

One more thing. 
@monemi , I've kinda been "growing into my cool" as I get older, and I'm starting to notice the same thing happening to me. Instead of it being about sex, it's been more about unhappy women hoping I'll come along and take all their problems off the table. You know, the whole fantasy that when you meet the right person you'll have "solved it" and things'll be just hunky-dory from there on out? It makes me feel really sad for them, and wary in their company. Turns my interest down right quick! Silly me, I keep tryin' to be their friend. Sometimes it works, but then other times I see resentment and bitterness coming in the other direction. That does a number on anyone's sense of self if you ask me. If it don't, you're either a helluva lot stronger than I am, or you didn't give two bits in the first place. To all the people who might be working through that - cream rises to the top. The ones who mattered always showed that, most of them stuck around, and the rest are finding their own way somewhere else. Clearly people have a way of sorting themselves out.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

changos said:


> Feeding the trolls maybe? I didn't like the article because things can be said differently, I'm seeing lots of publications with the only purpose of teasing genders. It could be discussed in a better way (if there is a genuine goal). Discovery channel showed a test on how men on a bar reacted to diff women and diff outfits, it showed video, data, numbers, while it's not final conclusion it was nicer.


Yeah, Return of the Kings is like that. It uses a lot of misogynistic (and sometimes misandric, but mostly misogynistic) trolling to make its point. I just felt I had to say something because no one seemed to really know much of anything about the source. I mean, I found out about it from reading /r/TumblrInAction.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Mr.Venture said:


> @ephemereality Dude, why are gonna assume I'm not interested in what you have to say? I gave a shout out to Penguin 'cause I read his posts and thought, "hey, he's trying to communicate something I feel." Don't you like it when that happens to you? *corners wink*


Because you clearly made some sweeping statements and ignored my experience, assuming it was of course of little to no relevance or interest to you. If it was, you would most certainly have bothered to mention it in some way.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

stormgirl said:


> Okay, so after reading the article and all the responses here, I would agree that a woman’s “value” in a sexual sense does take a dive when she reaches her 30s. However, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that women change a great deal as they get older, usually because they have children! (Sorry if I just offended all the moms out there).
> 
> 
> It has more to do with the energy a woman has than the number of years they are. I’ve known older women who are gorgeous and full of life, and they draw in men of all ages. Conversely, I’ve seen women much younger than me who are drained of all energy, and often lacking a sex drive. Not surprisingly, they don’t get much attention from men! I believe it’s the vitality that attracts men, more so than age.


I had my husband read the article. He thought it was way over the top. He was honest and said of course when men see a pretty woman they may think of her later (that's what I would expect at least) he agreed that young was attractive but at a certain age younger women lose their appeal and it becomes creepy. He is 40 year old ENTJ btw. I am telling you his type because he is very honest, too honest as in sometimes offensively blunt. He said all the graphic stuff was ridiculous and maybe in his early teenage years (I breathed a sigh of relief lol). He also said older women can be just as sexy, he pointed at the first pic and thought the elder woman was sexier for some reason couldn't explain why. 

He didn't say vitality but I think you guys are on the same page, it's about a balance of attractiveness, confidence, attitude, intelligence..I don't remember what else. Basically it's not just looks. So either he has lowered his standards because he is older or he is more mature. I obviously believe the latter. I do think most men value looks first. 

I may sound like an INFP with rabies on these boards but I still think I'm a catch at 34. ( I am much more reserved in person.)



(There is really no way to say you consider yourself attractive without sounding like an ass, especially on a forum)


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

MelanieM said:


> I had my husband read the article. He thought it was way over the top. He was honest and said of course when men see a pretty woman they may think of her later (that's what I would expect at least) he agreed that young was attractive but at a certain age younger women lose their appeal and it becomes creepy. He is 40 year old ENTJ btw. I am telling you his type because he is very honest, too honest as in sometimes offensively blunt. He said all the graphic stuff was ridiculous and maybe in his early teenage years (I breathed a sigh of relief lol). He also said older women can be just as sexy, he pointed at the first pic and thought the elder woman was sexier for some reason couldn't explain why.
> 
> He didn't say vitality but I think you guys are on the same page, it's about a balance of attractiveness, confidence, attitude, intelligence..I don't remember what else. Basically it's not just looks. So either he has lowered his standards because he is older or he is more mature. I obviously believe the latter. I do think most men value looks first.
> 
> ...


When I talked to my husband about the topic (no way he'd read a wall of text lol), he also said that it was too exaggerated. And he is an honest practical ISTJ.

Thing is, true, young women will probably always look more attractive, but that is not all that makes a woman attractive. Also, while there can be a sexual attraction, men might not view much younger women as potential partners... For example, your husband preferred the older woman in that pic maybe coz he saw her as a more potentially ideal partner than the young one. We tend to see people who are around our age and maturity more in tune with us as partners, the level of maturity can make a difference in how the couple is with each other.

And then attraction is complex. Maybe the older woman has facial traits that are more attractive to your husband? Maybe something else signals traits that are more attractive than the younger one? And so on. Also, older women might have more confidence, maturity, assertivity... another level of charm.
It's way to simplistic to resume women's attractiveness to age. Also, attraction is not only about sex.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> Even so, power to you Electric Girl.


:laughing::laughing:

OMG, I just giggled so hard


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> One more thing.
> @_monemi_ , I've kinda been "growing into my cool" as I get older, and I'm starting to notice the same thing happening to me. Instead of it being about sex, it's been more about unhappy women hoping I'll come along and take all their problems off the table. You know, the whole fantasy that when you meet the right person you'll have "solved it" and things'll be just hunky-dory from there on out? It makes me feel really sad for them, and wary in their company. Turns my interest down right quick! Silly me, I keep tryin' to be their friend. Sometimes it works, but then other times I see resentment and bitterness coming in the other direction. That does a number on anyone's sense of self if you ask me. If it don't, you're either a helluva lot stronger than I am, or you didn't give two bits in the first place. To all the people who might be working through that - cream rises to the top. The ones who mattered always showed that, most of them stuck around, and the rest are finding their own way somewhere else. Clearly people have a way of sorting themselves out.


I have a short temper. I say things in the moment and have to apologize later. But I don't hold onto things long term. Staying angry, holding a grudge, bitterness, resentment... it is all too tiring. I'm not an enlightened person. I figured out in my teens that I fail hard at grudges and staying angry. I dislike holding onto negative emotions. It's easier to just forgive and move on. I do it for me, not for them.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Veggie said:


> @_Mr.Venture_ - I'll probably hate myself later for this post, haha, but you're being so honest....and I just wanna reciprocate - God damn you.
> 
> It's entirely possible that I *might* watch porn like twice a day. Because of it's evil powers? No, because I feel sexual and it exists, lol (if this even happens...). It does get harder the longer you go too, yea
> 
> ...


I just thought the article was disgusting and not true for the most part. Call me a pilgrim. I used the term "suck it" bc if you saw me in person, it would have a different effect. I guess it sounds crass on a forum /shrug. Do you know any INFPs? We have an offbeat sense of humor. It is common for people to over-talk what they walk on a forum .

I said our one true power over men is sex. It's intrinsic, so it's used most often. Who doesn't want any power? You used the term "man's nuts in a sack", to me that is not attractive. For a man's nuts to be in a sack (or vice, whatever you prefer), the man must place them there voluntarily.

I respect a man who is in control of himself especially when tempted. I want a MAN, not some guy who is a "victim to womanly wiles". I see that as weak.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Mr.Venture

To clarify, I get it, you related to Penguin. My point however, was that there are a bunch of men in this thread who didn't. Yet Penguin and you (and the article in the OP) all make these grand assumptions about us men and our sexuality. You made a claim that:



> I think it speaks to a lot of guys' experience.


In response to Penguin's descriptions of how men ultimately desire and crave sex with women as is described in the article in the OP, exaggerated or not. 

And my point is no, it doesn't. It doesn't speak to me, and apparently it doesn't speak to most other guys' sexuality who responded to this thread either. Then, is it fair to say that "a lot" would relate/understand? That's a sweeping statement right there, and just makes my sexuality invisible, something I'm sick and tired of dealing with. I'm sick and tired of dealing with the stereotype that just because I'm a man I'm also a sex junkie because I happened to have testosterone as my primary sex hormone being rotated in my system, and I definitely do _not_ appreciate the underlying assumption from Penguin's side that the reason why I'm pissing on him in this thread is because I just don't get enough laid and apparently I'm just implicitly jealous over his sexual escapades. Again, suggesting that the problem all boils down to that I have issues because I am not having the sex I am supposedly entitled to have and because I do not choose to express this implicit right to sex, I'm somehow less of a man. 

When I see a woman, even a naked woman, even a naked and very attractive woman, the first thing I think of is not necessarily how I want to bang her fuckless. I'm also attracted to men physically, but even in a reverse scenario no, when I see a man, even a naked and every attractive man, I don't want to bang him fuckless either. There are no insidious fantasies that come into my mind against my own will. Do they happen? Sure. They happen when I talk to my girlfriend and she does something that triggers sexual arousal. It happens when I think of how nice it would be to be physically intimate in this very moment and I think of the things I would do if I was allowed to be intimate with anyone. I wouldn't consider these kinds of fantasies frustrating more than perhaps frustrating in the sense of being unable to live them out. Normal though? Yes, they don't bother me IRL or anything like that as a whole. I can operate normally despite them. 

So of course then, the poignant question is why I don't have these issues you profess suffering from when it comes to my sexuality. Yes, I'm demisexual so yes, I don't experience primary sexual attraction and I do understand this does play a role when it comes to our sexual fantasies in that we would ultimately only fantasize about those we find to be attractive, but it's not like I think of sex every time I interact with my girlfriend either. I do think a lot about sex yes, but it certainly doesn't come across as this desperate need in terms of uncontrollable fantasies that start taking over your life. The only time I began being bothered by my fantasies was when I noticed that I started projecting hentai scenes onto her where she was replaced by some anime girl instead of being herself. I took a break from watching hentai and it stopped. 

You speak to these women in this thread as if you need to educate and teach them about the plights of male sexuality and our inability to control our desires that is so forceful that we can't even help our own fantasies anymore, even though you are very aware that a strong sex drive is hardly unique for men or any gender and all it does to me is that I ask myself why? 

You even admit as much that you are in fact very capable of not seeing women as mere sex objects, even though logically speaking, nothing happens to your sexuality or your sex drive during these periods where you engage in this supposed "celibacy". So clearly to me, the issue has something to do with your cognition, _not_ your sexuality. 

If you condition yourself to the idea that sex is something you must have and that you are entitled to having sex and that sex is the only way to validate yourself and your worth as a man, obviously sex is the only thing you'll end up thinking about. Sooner or later sex is gonna creep into everywhere into your life because you let sex define who you are. 

Yes, male sex drive that is teosterone-induced can be a fucking bitch and I think I've seen the worse side on that compared to most people when I had a fucking boner almost 24/7 for almost two weeks once, but even back then it's not like I began objectifying every object I saw as fuckable as my fuck property and fantasizing about that. If your drive is that high to the point where the only thing you can think about is how to satisfy it, you need help because then it's clearly affecting your life negatively. 

I don't buy into this myth that all men are these sex animals who can't control their drives and the only thing they can think about is sex in terms of how to acquire it or how to experience it whenever they engage other people because I've met my fair share of men who don't relate to or identify with this experience because they never identified with this aspect of masculinity in the first place. *IF* you are one of those guys whose drive is absolutely uncontrollable, then yeah, I can feel sorry for you, but then you need to _*fix*_ it, *not *by trying to figure out to have sex, but to see a fucking doctor who can check if there's something wrong with your hormonal level, receptors or whatever. 

I am not even sure where I am going with this anymore and it got a lot longer than intended, but I am certainly not looking down upon men who desire sexual encounters for the sake of the sex like ONS, but I do look down on men who think it is their birth right to fuck and objectify women because of this supposed uncontrollable sex drive all men suffer that somehow reduces all men into sex junkies instead of decent human beings. And blaming male physiology is just lame as there are a fair share of men who are demisexual, asexual, what have you, and have no other problems with their hormonal levels and operate quite normally despite having a testosterone-induced sexuality.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

MelanieM said:


> I said our one true power over men is sex.


Right, which is kind of the point of the article too, so I don't understand the extreme adverse stance and shaming. They've figured it out!...lol. It's okay though - there's power all around in that.


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## Belladonne (Mar 22, 2014)

Asian_Chick said:


> From what I've seen so far, besides the obvious misogyny, this site promotes Jew-hating & Asiaphilia at its worst. Am I really supposed to take this seriously? Thanks for the article though. It makes me so much more aware of the propaganda that tries to implicate me in this hate machine. This reminds me of this one "White Nationalist" web site that spews similar dogma.


Just to let you guys know, Return of Kings is one of the worst sites on the Web. There's no way OP could not have known what he was doing by sharing this piece of tripe:

Quit Paying Attention to That Vile Troll Website

http://www.themilitantbaker.com/2013/11/return-of-kings-organized-hate-and.html

The guy who owns Return of Kings (AKA total loser who's been in trouble with the law):

Roosh V - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Belladonne (Mar 22, 2014)

Torai said:


> I guess so. However, the whole neckbeard stereotype still is a stereotype, and a really sex-negative one at that. It also tends to border on fat-shaming in some cases. It places a guy's worth on whether or not he loses his virginity to a woman, rather than treating sex as something that two people do together as an activity of intimacy, which is ironically what the "neckbeard" is being criticized for.


Really? I'm British, which is why I may not have heard as much about this stereotype, but I've never heard of that aspect of it before. Where are you getting this from? 



> I figured if you use the word misogyny and misandry in the same sentence, you'll get a few reactionaries from both sides of the fence. :tongue:
> 
> Just venting that it failed on me. XD


I can't even remember what you said about misandry, so I probably must have agreed with it *shrugs* People can certainly be misandrists, though it is less common than misogyny in my experience. I've met a couple of fellow feminists who are undoubtedly so; the word doesn't bug me as people like that do exist.

Also, I see you're an INFJ... If you wanna troll in future, be more ENTPish xD. They are the best.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Belladonne said:


> Really? I'm British, which is why I may not have heard as much about this stereotype, but I've never heard of that aspect of it before. Where are you getting this from?


Mostly tumblr, but to be fair, tumblr has many people who use social justice as a front for feeling superior to others.

Neckbeard | Know Your Meme



> I can't even remember what you said about misandry, so I probably must have agreed with it *shrugs* People can be certainly misandrists. I've met a couple of fellow feminists who are undoubtedly misandric; the word doesn't bug me as people like that do exist.
> 
> Also, I see you're an INFJ... If you wanna troll in future, be more ENTPish xD. They are the best.


I should just stick to countertrolling. That's my best style. :tongue:

Trolls are so easy to troll.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

@Mr.Venture - You feel what you feel. It's pointless to me to shoot people down for their feelings. Where I reach a problem is with people who settle into the sewage of negativity, men and women alike, savoring bitterness and anger and resentment like it were a fine wine. When in truth, it's vile stuff. It's just as unattractive in any gender. If you experience negativity and do something to remedy it, then I don't have something to criticize. Meanwhile there are people like the man that wrote that article that seem to make a career based on their negativity. I give them wide berth in real life.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

:sad: High quality men don't want you. Men don't want to love you beyond your looks. Give up hope already. Thats all he could have said because that's all I really heard anyways. Thank you for sharing. The author is such an outstanding man to bestow the cruel reality to women everywhere. I'm sure his intentions were to be helpful. So we stop wasting time hoping for something unrealistic ? I don't know.

how very sad if this is truth. :'(


*responded to OP only*


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## clairdelunatic (Mar 20, 2013)

I'm not sure what happened -- but somewhere around page 11, I found myself not responding even when I wanted to. I meant to respond to @_Mr.Venture_'s post, but yeah -- I didn't. By the time I'd finished, the discussion was three pages longer, which to me means I missed the boat.  (And to answer your question, Mr Venture, yep. Welcome to feeling like this.) 

For the most part, I've been digging how constructively the larger part of the conversation has been moving. Amazed, really.

Where there _is_ upset, I actually don't think discussing the article is where the heat is coming from (though I've done my bit to try to repress what that article had to offer). Seems like most of us agree that the author is making too many generalizations from personal experience (well said, @_Wellsy_). But somehow, we seem to be annoyed by certain offshoot assumptions or beliefs, such as:



Women's merits are always based on their looks. If a woman has some success, we should point out the ways in which her physical appearance contributed. 
Men do and should want to get laid (and use this as a measure of success? Is that being implied? Note my use of passive voice...). 
Feminism and radical feminism are the same. 

A lot of the anger seems directed at Penguin, too, though I'm not 100% sure why. (I mean, Ferengi. That's a low blow :kitteh:...) But it seems like something might have happened off stage in another thread I'm not reading? Idk.

At some points in this thread, I felt like, *"Haven't we done this before? Doesn't it somehow boil back down to what equality really means for men and women re: dating?"* I really wish we could have _this_ conversation without blowing up at each other. And I feel like maybe this is the group to do it. 

I also am really enjoying the rounds between @_Enfpleasantly_, @_Veggie_, @_Swede_, and @_monemi_, too. Really well articulated, guys. I mean ladies. I mean... females?

EDIT: Lol, Kitty. You posted seconds before I did.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

@monemi It's constant confounding to me that people choose to swill their own venom like it's fine wine. I really just don't get it. How does it ever taste any better when it's comin' out your mouth? Doesn't make me angry, just sad for 'em.

But then I remember to keep my distance. ;-)


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

clairdelunatic said:


> I'm not sure what happened -- but somewhere around page 11, I found myself not responding even when I wanted to. I meant to respond to @_Mr.Venture_'s post, but yeah -- I didn't. By the time I'd finished, the discussion was three pages longer, which to me means I missed the boat.  (And to answer your question, Mr Venture, yep. Welcome to feeling like this.)
> 
> For the most part, I've been digging how constructively the larger part of the conversation has been moving. Amazed, really.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to take a shot at anyone with the ferengi comment. It's just I have that word association. In real life, I don't know men who refer to women as 'females' more specifically when we're talking about dating and relationships. It screams ferengi's in Star Trek to me.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

@clairdelunatic There's ought and there's is, and never the twain shall meet - though it's fun to make 'em try. *playful wink*

I gotta say, sex, romance and relationships seems to be the knottiest arena of the gender equality/politics debate. It seems right sensible to me to be the case given evolutionary psychology would say that's where the differences would be at their strongest. I mean, it's easy for me to say that I see disparity in the way men and women are treated in the work arena, and I'd like to see that rectified. Even so, when it comes to romance I find there's some part of me that gets defensive and wants to hold on to the idea of a "manhood" I want to protect - even if I can't right exactly say what it is. I've grown accustomed to understanding that my feelings have their own merit on this and it's a dangerous path to start dismissin' them as "only" social programmin'. There's a reality to deal with as well.

For instance, it really has been the case that the more confidence I exude, the more women want to meet and spend time with me. Fair 'nuff. But it also so happens that that curious mixture of confidence includes some pretty masculine traits - and I can't explain it all away. Confident and vital women are also damned attractive, but there's still a different quality to the way they carry themselves and the way it gets expressed.

Accepting there's more similarity than difference, am I the only one who sees this?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

clairdelunatic said:


> Is that being implied?


Specifically, it is an expression of power to dominate women if you can have sex with them or rather, make them have sex with you. This is the most commonly expressed dynamic in porn where the girl often plays resistant at first and may pretend to be resistant throughout the entire sex act, but she secretly desires the man and specifically his dick. It's a male power fantasy.

Therefore, men who are unable to have sex with women have no power over women, hence their masculinity is invalidated. This dynamic is very obvious if one studies the difference in approach towards homosexual and heterosexual men. There's a reason "gay" and "***" are derogatory terms, especially when men are referring to other men because it implies their complete lack of power and interest to assert power over women.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

@clairdelunatic -  I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm the female equivalent of Fedora Man as a result. I, too, like to create elaborate conspiracy theories (they're all marrying the Jackie O's!) and my own brand of guilt when in reality I should probably just go to the gym and leave my house. 

I'd much prefer to paint the picture not of the ballbusting "feminazi", but of dream girls worldwide, dying alone behind computer screens exclaiming "...if only that douchebag had suited up and wined and dined me!" though ;p

I think a good counter to this article would be "Men - the women you're attracted to have bad habits just like you do." I sense a stand off between a lot of gals (?) and dudes I know who are still single. I mean, you do give up a lot for a relationship, and playing on the internet and complaining and stuff is just so much more appealing to some people, lol. I was brought up on Disney, I thought there was gonna be a bit more...persuasion, lol. I have sympathy for disallusionment and resentment.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Belladonne said:


> Translated:
> 
> -I put up a ridiculously misogynist article for the purpose of trying to spread misogynist views
> 
> ...


wrong but it probably looks that way, I just don't have the time or will power to argue with people like you when all I wanted to do was discuss valid questions/viewpoints. 

the difference is you're enraged by my viewpoint (if you even understand it) and I'm indifferent to yours I just don't want to sift through the 22 notifications I get every time I log on and half of them be you or some other feminist flaming me.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

clairdelunatic said:


> I'm not sure what happened -- but somewhere around page 11, I found myself not responding even when I wanted to. I meant to respond to @_Mr.Venture_'s post, but yeah -- I didn't. By the time I'd finished, the discussion was three pages longer, which to me means I missed the boat.  (And to answer your question, Mr Venture, yep. Welcome to feeling like this.)
> 
> For the most part, I've been digging how constructively the larger part of the conversation has been moving. Amazed, really.
> 
> ...



nothing happened in another thread and its actually one or two people who are bashing me but they just keep posting, I refuse to engage beyond disagreement. I just care way less about others worldviews than I used to. I've discovered that, in a lot of ways, your world view becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

anyway, thanks for speaking up and saying what I'm trying to, I guess its more credible coming from a 3rd party.


----------



## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Swede said:


> I think that you come across as naive, close-minded, and rude! I don't even know whether you have read any of the posts I took the time to write here - because *you* asked for feedback! You have not acknowledged anything I have written nor have you thanked me for the time I took to post in your thread. Sad and comes off as petty, in all honesty.
> It also shows that you are in fact not interested in a discussion, but you are interested in getting support for your world view and that you are basically just using this post to advertise this article and the toxic ideas it represents to other PerC members. And you have a really convenient out - you just shrug and say "I'm a doushe, deal with it". Pretty lame.
> 
> This post, quoted right here, is utter BS and I strongly suspect that you are trolling your own thread at this point. I have basically already explained why in previous posts, but I can add some thoughts to this too.
> ...



lolol I'm sorry being pretty is such a curse for you.

how sad of a world it must be where something so beautiful and so rare is essentially spat on by its owner. sad.


----------



## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

monemi said:


> But attractive men have a huge advantage too.


I agree of course I don't think its as big of an advantage unless you look like Adonis then maybe it is.


----------



## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

@Penguin, if you got nothin' to hide then don't let 'em get to you. Pain is universal, but you don't gotta take their's on your shoulders. I'll point out that everyone said (far as I can remember) there was at least somethin' in the article they could relate to, so it really did spark good discussion.

Look, if your intent really was to promote the article's point of view as your own without havin' to account for that, here's your chance to come clean. If it wasn't, you say so and I'll believe it. I suspect you'll keep takin' some flak either way, but sometimes that's the cost of integrity. Show how strong you are.

Tits or GTFO (did I use that right?)


----------



## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Oh man, this is a good thread *sits back and kicks up his feet*


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Penguin said:


> I agree of course I don't think its as big of an advantage unless you look like Adonis then maybe it is.


And you have proof of this?


----------



## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

note that I also have never read anything else from that site but I think the views are being reflected on to me?

I shouldn't have to clarify but since its been implied

I dont hate jews (lol quite the opposite)
I'm not into underage girls
I'm not a white supremacist (why is it even assumed that I'm white....)
I don't think of women as objects
I wasn't trying to offend anyone

I have been an asshole to women that I've dated in the past
I have been overly concerned with sex in the past
I am insecure about some things


I do believe this article makes valid points but over generalizes/makes things black and white
I have experienced my fair share of entitled women, I always assumed it was because of their looks but according to the 2 "dime pieces" who appear to differ vehemently in that regard maybe it was just because they were rich or maybe you ladies who hate me so much aren't as good looking as you'd like to think or maybe you really are brain washed feminists who think you need to type out 20 page personal attacks every time someone brings up inequality from a mans point of view. I don't know...

the fact that this thread started out with a bunch of people agreeing with me...both men and women, then devolved into 2-3 people writing pages on pages on pages of personal attacks and basically the feminist counterpart to this article with a personal twist should prove a point quite frankly

the fact that a mod refuses to step in despite site rules clearly stating personal attacks are not allowed tells me they aren't doing their job objectively.

no one has the time nor cares enough to try and change your mind.

so please...go ahead and keep circle jerking about how you "punched me in the face" but I'd really like to stop getting notifications about it because I do not care and I'd like to be able to view threads that are still objective and civil.

have a nice day

edit: @Mr.Venture here you go


----------



## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Penguin said:


> note that I also have never read anything else from that site but I think the views are being reflected on to me?
> 
> I shouldn't have to clarify but since its been implied
> 
> ...


well if the article was written by some Anti-Semite pedophile then I am quite relieved. The author probably has a small penis complex anyways and like Napoleon, eats raunchy cooch.


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. I didn't have to deal with this stuff. I got married at 23 to a 33 year old.


Right. So I guess I'm more giving the perspective of someone who could relate to the article. I was single at nineteen (bf - eventually ex-fiance - at that time was three years older), and then again at twenty-seven. Big difference for me. 



monemi said:


> The way you colour single women doesn't resemble how I see my single friends. I don't recognize these caricatures


Giving my experience. Obviously I can't speak for yours. Your friends sound cool though.



monemi said:


> They don't seem focused on getting married or eeking to call out men for being misogynists.


Well, it hasn't really been so much the single women who have been doing that on this thread (misogynist!), now has it?  In my little created dialogue, I feel like the last two lines are more assumed, projected and implied than ever actually said - and more perpetuated by women in relationships.

I don't care if I get married. I never really did. I'd watch The Notebook and get confused. The idea at 23, and with kids, might have sent me into cardiac arrest, but power to you, lol. Actually, a lot of my favorite people are the ones who did this.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Penguin said:


> I put mentor in quotes because he was actually kind of a shitty person and he and I ended up parting ways because of his worldview which consisted of equal trading, you give him something he gives you something and his goal was to win the trade. He had a lot of useful information for me in terms of manipulation etc which I DO use but I don't see life as so black and white.
> 
> European women are much more open minded is all I'm saying, no I wasn't talking about just getting laid but then...thats the double standard put on men. If the same thing had come from a woman your mind probably would not have gone there during that statement. why? ask yourself that question and you will understand my point of view.
> 
> ...


I was an army brat and then my father went to university and then started working as a consultant. Lots of international travel. I saw a lot of Western Europe and some Latin America. Epic fail on picking up Spanish and Portuguese. Better luck on German and French. I got left with family for some jobs. 

Most of my experience with conservative culture is my husband and his family. Although, compared to some places, he doesn't seem too conservative. He's French Canadian and American. 

My world doesn't look like yours. My parents are still happily married. My inlaws are still happily married. 



Penguin said:


> it all makes sense now


What makes sense?


----------



## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

@Swede


to be honest I hate the culture and I hatehatehate the double standard. The thing that I am personally frustrated by is that no one talks about how it hurts men only how it hurts women. and women often hypocritically stereotype men and their intentions before they even get to know them. The part thats frustrating is a girl who is an 8 (who happens to be outgoing/approachable) will have options thrown at her whereas a guy who is an 8 has to go out and make his options.

The part that I really don't like is that all the risk/commitment has to come from men first which puts us in the weaker position off the bat YET we're asked to be alphas and be confident YET you want us to open your doors and pay for your food buy you a drink etc.


you see how this can be confusing and leave a lot of men bitter, its hard to reconcile a lot of the expectations when they don't match up with the big picture, thats why you get those false douchy assholes because they chose a false image of confidence. They are a product of confusing social norms and expectations. 

there is another side and women just don't acknowledge or even seem to notice it.

we KNOW you have image expectations etc hence "you look nice" or "i like your dress"

its just rarely reciprocated and generally physical contact is the affirmation that we need; its how we're wired. A kiss to me is equivalent to a compliment or pulling out your chair or something. It's no less shallow for me to expect that than it is for a woman to expect the former.

compliments, especially thoughtful ones take effort on our part, so does listening and being there emotionally. perhaps being there physically takes more effort for women but its kind of the same thing as I see it.

I hope this makes sense....its mostly just me rambling.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Enfpleasantly said:


> @_Swede_, I see your perspective for sure, but I just wanted to explain how I personally took @_Penguin_'s comment to me about aging and "you have art that is quite good so you'll have that at least"...
> 
> I can see how it could be taken as backhanded, but honestly, I didn't see it like that. My art means more to me than my appearance because it's a part of my legacy. Surely when I'm an old lady, I'll enjoy showing my grandchildren a picture of myself in my prime for kicks, but I'll be even more proud of the things I created from within myself that I will leave behind when I'm gone.
> 
> Because I personally value that over my appearance by far, I was actually complimented by his statement.


I'm proud of the extension I made happen to a food bank and replacing the outdated park in my neighbourhood school. These projects were kind of my babies. I saw the need and listened to people complain about the problems. And just thought, this is totally fixable. This is something I can actually do something about. I asked questions, networked, figured out who I needed to talk to, brought people together who knew their stuff, found the core funding and ran fundraisers, talked to the builders and rescued these projects when they almost fell through just like I've done a hundred times in sales. Most of my work can't be physically seen. Most of my work has been contracts on pieces of paper with signatures and money moved between companies. But the charity work I've done, I can point at those things and say: I made that happen. I don't know that I'd call them legacies. I didn't physically build anything and it wasn't my money. The naming goes to who paid for it. But it still feels like mine because I worked for it. 



Veggie said:


> Right. So I guess I'm more giving the perspective of someone who could relate to the article. I was single at nineteen (bf - eventually ex-fiance - at that time was three years older), and then again at twenty-seven. Big difference for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At twenty, I never would have pictured marriage and kids. This was something that was important to my husband and he's important to me. When we started dating, he was only temporarily living in London. That he was going home, sort of hurried things along. I flat out don't do LDR. I figured he'd stay in London or go home. But that wasn't what he had in mind. Anyway, it wasn't like I was specifically looking for marriage and kids. I was open to it. I've always been a gambler.


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> I've always been a gambler.


I've always been a neurotic over planner who turns to gambling in the heat of the moment to try to balance it all out 

I respect conscious gambling though, lol. Trying to get there myself


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> I've always been a neurotic over planner who turns to gambling in the heat of the moment to try to balance it all out
> 
> I respect conscious gambling though, lol. Trying to get there myself


I'm good at short term planning. But always fail hard on the long game. I just don't bother making long term plans. I enjoy challenges and I'm energized by solving one problem after another in short succession and juggling. But whenever I turn my hand at long term planning, I just see all of the ways things could go wrong and I just picture no one holding up their end because I can't keep energies high for very long and I can't keep people motivated that long. All long term plans look like cock ups just waiting to happen. I _hate _looking too far down the road. Things should happen within 6 weeks to a year. That's foreseeable. I can anticipate needs and keep one step ahead on those kinds of time lines. 

So if I'm making a long term plan I only have one solution every time. Gamble.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks, this is more like the type of discussion that I was hoping for.


Penguin said:


> @_Swede_
> 
> to be honest I hate the culture and I hatehatehate the double standard. The thing that I am personally frustrated by is that no one talks about how it hurts men only how it hurts women. and women often hypocritically stereotype men and their intentions before they even get to know them. The part thats frustrating is a girl who is an 8 (who happens to be outgoing/approachable) will have options thrown at her whereas a guy who is an 8 has to go out and make his options.
> Yes, I agree about the double standard - the US is kinda known for double-standards in general, no offense meant.
> ...


Sure, me too.


----------



## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Swede said:


> Thanks, this is more like the type of discussion that I was hoping for.
> 
> Sure, me too.


I don't think I disagree with anything here.

I'm on your husbands side though, when a girl goes to college and majors in "domestic and family studies" she isn't there to jumpstart her career hahaha


----------



## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

Veggie said:


> The writer being me? I pulled that from the article, that's why it's quoted. I later admitted that I just yanked it for the overall gist of what it's saying too.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can  You can set your standards wherever you want and you don't even have to pick at all. I'd rather hold out and deal with it than settle for comfortable. That doesn't mean it doesn't still suck after experiencing more of an abundance of options. I'm not complaining that people are superficial either. Physical attraction is what it is.


I didn't realise that you're the writer, but still the same opinion holds.

I'm not referring to settling if you don't want to, but nobody is perfect. Also you shouldn't shame men for their neediness and horniness, we never know how much hardship they went through to get DSR and the attention of women, however it doesn't mean that you must submit to their desires if you don't want to. I would say to have standards, but to keep them within reasonable limits. There's a middle ground for everything.

That's true and it is a natural instinct to be attracted to what one considers to be physically attractive. A hard fact of life unfortunately.


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Penguin said:


> The Awesome Temporary Power Of Young Attractive Women
> 
> 
> ^ I saw this on facebook, not so sure I agree with everything they say but I do agree with some of it. Should spark some good discussion I hope, keep it civil please.


Damn, this is raw! But as a man, I take a positive rather than negative view as many may.

It's a great comfort to know when you are 20 and single, that you have time to work on yourself and the best is still to come. It is doubly satisfying to know that all the women who have been arrogant enough to reject you are going to panic someday when they can't pull the charm off any longer and realise that the clock is ticking. 

This article reminds me of a video I watched on YT half a year ago when I was in a trough; a friend from the States linked me, and it was an epiphany: the beginning of a journey still in progress to turn my life around.

Here it is, listen and smile:


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

^ now he sounds bitter as shit

it also sounds like he was abused by women....

edit: or allowed himself to be taken advantage of

or had really bad social skills

or was really fat

or all of those things.


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Penguin said:


> ^ now he sounds bitter as shit
> 
> it also sounds like he was abused by women....
> 
> ...


ffs stop white knighting, it's embarrassing...


----------



## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

SouthernSaxon said:


> ffs stop white knighting, it's embarrassing...


read the whole thread jesus people I'm not going to have the same conversation 100 times when its here in text.


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Penguin said:


> read the whole thread jesus people I'm not going to have the same conversation 100 times when its here in text.


If I misread and you weren't referring to my comment, my apologies. 

I now see that you are actually the thread starter.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

yeah and that guy on that show is a bitter old man who sounds like he got rejected a shit ton. this is not about degrading women its about both genders realizing there is a problem.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Powerhouse said:


> Also you shouldn't shame men for their neediness and horniness, we never know how much hardship they went through to get DSR and the attention of women, however it doesn't mean that you must submit to their desires if you don't want to. I would say to have standards, but to keep them within reasonable limits. There's a middle ground for everything.


What are you reading here, seriously? I've had the continued stance of not shaming them for these things. 

Also, I can demand Batman on a unicorn with a nine inch dick if I want. I can set my standards wherever I please. That's the beauty of being an adult.


----------



## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

Veggie said:


> What are you reading here, seriously? I've had the continued stance of not shaming them for these things.
> 
> Also, I can demand Batman on a unicorn with a nine inch dick if I want. I can set my standards wherever I please. That's the beauty of being an adult.


From this quote?


Veggie said:


> _"There are no good men. Why can’t I find a man? Where have all the men gone? Well, ladies, the “good men” are out there trying to sleep with much younger women. I think to myself, you know how lonely and desperately horny you feel right now? Aching to have even a semi-attractive, non-disgusting man want to spend time with you and make love to you? Well, this is payback for when you were young and had a sea of men in your orbit. You flirted with them and wasted their time. You mocked them for their horniness and neediness. Now you know their suffering. It is your just retribution."_
> 
> Yea. I'm almost thirty now, and the dating scene is very confusing having been in it last at 19, lol. I was a bit of a self-entitled bitch.
> 
> ...


So first you're saying you wrote all that, then suddenly have a total 180 degree change in your stance?

Yes, one can set any standards as desired, but it doesn't mean that it's realistic or that it can necessarily be met. It depends on circumstances too.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Powerhouse said:


> From this quote?
> 
> 
> So first you're saying you wrote all that, then suddenly have a total 180 degree change in your stance?
> ...


Err.... reading comprehension #FAIL. That's not what she said at all. Go back and try again.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

[No message]


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Veggie said:


> What are you reading here, seriously? I've had the continued stance of not shaming them for these things.
> 
> Also, I can demand Batman on a unicorn with a nine inch dick if I want. I can set my standards wherever I please. That's the beauty of being an adult.


I just totally screwed up that image and instead saw a Unicorn dressed as Batman with a nine inch dick. He had really nice unicorn hair.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I just totally screwed up that image and instead saw a Unicorn dressed as Batman with a nine inch dick. He had really nice unicorn hair.


:laughing::laughing:

For some reason that then made me think of this picture:


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

@Veggie, that is a pretty disturbing picture on many levels... lol


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I just totally screwed up that image and instead saw a Unicorn dressed as Batman with a nine inch dick. He had really nice unicorn hair.


Well... thanks for that image.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> For some reason that then made me think of this picture:


Oh... it just got worse.


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

@monemi - I'm assuming what you meant to say there was it just got sexier


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> @_monemi_ - I'm assuming what you meant to say there was it just got sexier


For someone with very different tastes to me.


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

monemi said:


> Pffft. Assuming you're as bitter and resentful and bent on revenge in the future as you are now, your dating future isn't going to be any better then than it is now. No one's going to want a person who is festering.


Personal attack.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SouthernSaxon said:


> Personal attack.


Personal attack? Then you personally attack people on most threads you post on.


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

monemi said:


> Personal attack? Then you personally attack people on most threads you post on.


You jumped onto this thread, and went off at a tangent criticizing me personally about something unrelated to the thread subject. That constitutes a personal attack.

In my posts, however much you may disagree with their perspective and tone, I address the subject.

Attack me again and I will report you. That is a promise.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SouthernSaxon said:


> You jumped onto this thread, and went off at a tangent criticizing me personally about something unrelated to the thread subject. That constitutes a personal attack.
> 
> In my posts, however much you may disagree with their perspective and tone, I address the subject.
> 
> Attack me again and I will report you. That is a promise.


Just report me already. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's the truth.


----------



## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Omg @Veggie, I don't reckon I'll ever be able to picture Batman without long sensuous purple ponytails now. Also, it was a while back, but thanks for postin' that video. I was pretty darned heartened by the guy's reaction at the end.
@Powerhouse, I suppose these are the dangers of jumpin' into a contentious topic without checkin' the entire thread. Figure you might to give a read-through to understand everythin' that's been said - else you wouldn't have mistaken Veggie's tone so muchly.
@SouthernSaxon Don't nobody want hurt you. *reaches out for a hug* C'mere little bro. I gotcha. You feelin' some pain? I gotcha. It's just pain, that's all it is. Just shows you care. *starts hummin' Lean On Me*


----------



## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Mr.Venture said:


> @SouthernSaxon Don't nobody want hurt you. *reaches out for a hug* C'mere little bro. I gotcha. You feelin' some pain? I gotcha. It's just pain, that's all it is. Just shows you care. *starts hummin' Lean On Me*


Allow me to point out that this white knighting is entirely self interested.


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

SouthernSaxon said:


> Allow me to point out that this white knighting is entirely self interested.


Maybe not. There are dudes out there who will just sit with you and have a beer. Friendship and stuff.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Maybe not. There are dudes out there who will just sit with you and have a beer. Friendship and stuff.












No! No! That's White Knighting!


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> No! No! That's White Knighting!


I feel like white knights and friendship can go hand in hand too


----------



## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Veggie said:


> Maybe not. There are dudes out there who will just sit with you and have a beer. Friendship and stuff.


The exception doesn't make the rule.


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

SouthernSaxon said:


> The exception doesn't make the rule.


How do you know you're not the exception?

Maybe if you were like, a beer, cool - all would be fine


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SouthernSaxon said:


> The exception doesn't make the rule.


So lets react suspiciously to every man that is ever nice to us again!


----------



## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

monemi said:


> So lets react suspiciously to every man that is ever nice to us again!


What a gross misrepresentation of my post.

What you should assume, until proven otherwise, is that a man who pays you attention has romantic interest in you. And if you treat all men who view you that way harshly, you have a damn nerve lecturing me about relationships.


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SouthernSaxon said:


> What a gross misrepresentation of my post.
> 
> What you should assume, until proven otherwise, is that a man who pays you attention has romantic interest in you. And if you treat all men who view you that way harshly, you have a damn nerve lecturing me about relationships.


Do you have any sense of humour? Any? 

I'm not going to treat every single man like he's interested in a romantic relationship with me. First, because that's incredibly arrogant and presumptuous. Second, I'm a married woman and it should be quite obvious that I have no interest in a romantic relationship with him. Third, assuming every man is interested is treating them suspiciously because you're treating them differently than you would a woman. I have more manners than that.


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

SouthernSaxon said:


> What you should assume, until proven otherwise, is that a man who pays you attention has romantic interest in you.


I've assumed that to my own detriment actually, lol. Some of us do have high self esteem and consider this (even if we're doing the depraved things of hussy behavior that would maybe dictate otherwise - blah, and edit, not that if you don't think this you don't - just that it's not so shocking to everyone). You can still get over it and form friendships, though, even if that's there.

I was more just standing up for your distrust of the kindness to *you* too. So was I actually the White Knighter? Were you for assuming otherwise? What's happening?


----------



## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

I don't know what this white-knightin' is (someone wanna post a link to the meme?) but I'll admit it was a little good natured ribbin' on you @SouthernSaxon . @monemi and @Veggie both had it right. Truth be told we've already had a couple of blowouts on tone considering the article raises such contentious issues.

You posted the dj givin' his two cents. Puttin' aside HIS tone of voice - hell, I couldn't even make out what the callers were sayin' - I could see something relatable in there. 'Specifically, there's a sort of dark pleasure that arises whenever someone I thought was immoderately shallow gets their comeuppance. Now I'm not sayin' that's common, but I can think of one woman I knew who used to shamelessly use men to support her drinkin' problem. She dropped off my radar, but I already could see where that life was leadin' her - and the little life she had left was gettin' sucked out dry in the process.

Somewhat more contentiously, I believe there is some merit to the idea that privileged young women can get stuck with a situation where, 'cause the world is tellin' them they can have it all, they lose their heads. It's a materialistic kind of thinkin', where a person just gets stuck in the logic of, "if I had THIS, I'd be happy." It's kinda understandable since I'm no stranger to that way of things, but it's like plannin' on winnin' the lottery for your retirement fund. For us fellahs tryin' to impress them, truth is we got stuck in the same line of thinkin'. "If I just had HER, I'd be happy." Takes a few times around the block to realize that's just another way of bein' unhappy with yourself, but the rejection stings no matter when it happens. In that sense, takes a real strong character to figure out what's goin' on, and then you still gotta deal with all the other men and women out there who never figured it out for themselves.

So @SouthernSaxon, given what I just said, wanna take another crack at speakin' your piece?


----------



## Kevinaswell (May 6, 2009)




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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

@monemi Thank goodness even us stone-aged devils have a modicum of willpower, right? 
@Veggie Chance are good, if he's me, he's at least thought about it. Just sayin'. But your right, friendships are made of sterner stuff.

I do know it's much more an issue if I'm single, but choose the hero you wanna be, right?


----------



## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> Chance are good, if he's me, he's at least thought about it.


Oh, us too  Maybe even done it 

It all gets very confusing. BUT. If you respect and like a person...you respect and like that person. Regardless. I think that's the icky kind of painful enlightenment we all strive for


----------



## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Veggie said:


> I've assumed that to my own detriment actually, lol. Some of us do have high self esteem and consider this (even if we're doing the depraved things of hussy behavior that would maybe dictate otherwise - blah, and edit, not that if you don't think this you don't - just that it's not so shocking to everyone). You can still get over it and form friendships, though, even if that's there.


Here's the thing: you may want to form friendships. But the guy who wanted to go out with you? When you tell him, "I don't like you that way but value your friendship" - what I'm trying to tell you is that he is going to be really offended by that.

This message never seems to get through. 



Veggie said:


> I was more just standing up for your distrust of the kindness to *you* too. So was I actually the White Knighter? Were you for assuming otherwise? What's happening?


My distrust of the kindness shown towards me? Uh, what kindness?


----------



## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Veggie said:


> Oh, us too  Maybe even done it
> 
> It all gets very confusing. BUT. If you respect and like a person...you respect and like that person. Regardless. I think that's the icky kind of painful enlightenment we all strive for


 @Veggie, you TRYIN' to keep me up all night? ;-) No, point taken. Respect and like go the longest way to make both good friendships and elsewise. 

On that painful enlightenment, some questions just ain't got no answers - I truly believe that. Way I figure, best we can do is juggle 'em again and again. Sometimes they mix like hot dogs and ballgames. Sometimes you gotta pick one or the other - kinda like girl upstairs or the one in the basement. Sometimes you luck right out and discover somethin' new in the whole darned mess. You've got my respect at least for takin' it on like a champ.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

SouthernSaxon said:


> Here's the thing: you may want to form friendships. But the guy who wanted to go out with you? When you tell him, "I don't like you that way but value your friendship" - what I'm trying to tell you is that he is going to be really offended by that.
> 
> This message never seems to get through.


Um, @SouthernSaxon, not all of us actually get offended when a woman says that. She's got her reasons and, even if they're sillier than a nipple on a tv set, never had no luck convincin' anyone of that. That's when I do the cold hard math of my interest of carryin' on any relations with HER.

C'mon Southern, haven't you ever been on the other side of the equation? Passionate man such as yourself must've inspired at least one misty eye your way. How'd you handle that?


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Mr.Venture said:


> I don't know what this white-knightin' is (someone wanna post a link to the meme?) but I'll admit it was a little good natured ribbin' on you @SouthernSaxon . @monemi and @Veggie both had it right. Truth be told we've already had a couple of blowouts on tone considering the article raises such contentious issues.
> 
> You posted the dj givin' his two cents. Puttin' aside HIS tone of voice - hell, I couldn't even make out what the callers were sayin' - I could see something relatable in there. 'Specifically, there's a sort of dark pleasure that arises whenever someone I thought was immoderately shallow gets their comeuppance. Now I'm not sayin' that's common, but I can think of one woman I knew who used to shamelessly use men to support her drinkin' problem. She dropped off my radar, but I already could see where that life was leadin' her - and the little life she had left was gettin' sucked out dry in the process.
> 
> ...


There is little I can add to your post without paraphrasing it or something that I've posted previously. However, I will dispense with a few misconceptions. I will admit taking pleasure in seeing arrogant women who have spurned many decent, reliable potential mates, or manipulated them, one day get cold feet and realise that they can't do it anymore. Is this really so vindictive? If someone treated you and your friends arrogantly, and eventually someone gave them a taste of their own medicine, would you feel sympathy?


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

SouthernSaxon said:


> "I don't like you that way but value your friendship" - what I'm trying to tell you is that he is going to be really offended by that.
> 
> This message never seems to get through.


Nothing new. Some stick around. Also, some you do like in that way but there are extenuating circumstances. If life ever were as easy as "We like and are sexually attracted to each other, let's be together...and, forever!" (and really, it never was, despite what Hollywood would like us to think)...it's most definitely not anymore. The men I would like, sexually or not, would be emotionally intelligent enough to realize this (or fight it and man up and try for the relationship anyway, rejection as a consolation prize or not because he's confident and caring anyhow). 



Mr.Venture said:


> [MENTION=22548]
> On that painful enlightenment, some questions just ain't got no answers - I truly believe that.


Agreed  I feel like if it were so easy we would be drawing on each other's faces in crayon and laughing at Carrot Top. Thank God we have our challenges! 



Mr.Venture said:


> You've got my respect at least for takin' it on like a champ.


Thanks  I have broken my brain, a little.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Yo @Penguin, you still followin' this? How 'bout you chime in?


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

http://http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/white-knight

*rustles through his tickle trunk* I got the helmet, but where's that damned lance I've been keepin' for just such an occasion? *grumbles*


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Mr.Venture said:


> Yo @_Penguin_, you still followin' this? How 'bout you chime in?


no I'm not really hah...what would you like my opinion on?


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Mr.Venture said:


> Um, @SouthernSaxon, not all of us actually get offended when a woman says that. She's got her reasons and, even if they're sillier than a nipple on a tv set, never had no luck convincin' anyone of that. That's when I do the cold hard math of my interest of carryin' on any relations with HER.


When I was more naive about dating, I would take time out of my day, every day, for weeks or even months, trying to get to know a girl in the hope that she'd open up to me and then be open to romantic overtures. It never worked. I'm surprised that you spent that amount of time, only to be turned down, and didn't feel any bitterness.

Here I should add that I am not putting myself through this any longer. It seems ridiculous to give a strange girl more than ten minutes of my time at the most, what has she done to deserve that? If I don't get a green light at least I've only wasted ten minutes. 



Mr.Venture said:


> C'mon Southern, haven't you ever been on the other side of the equation? Passionate man such as yourself must've inspired at least one misty eye your way. How'd you handle that?


Of course, but I find that a little too personal to be an appropriate forum discussion.


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## Villainous (Dec 31, 2012)

Return of Kings is one of the most toxic blogs I've read. I'd avoid it like the plague


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> @_Powerhouse_, I suppose these are the dangers of jumpin' into a contentious topic without checkin' the entire thread. Figure you might to give a read-through to understand everythin' that's been said - else you wouldn't have mistaken Veggie's tone so muchly.


I read some parts here and there, not everything. It's impossible to have a constructive debate if everyone is confused and there's a sudden change in stance. If she's playing devil's advocate then there should be something said to imply so.


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

monemi said:


> Err.... reading comprehension #FAIL. That's not what she said at all. Go back and try again.


If you're playing devil's advocate, but shouldn't there be something to state or to imply so?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *Veggie*
> 
> The writer being me? * I pulled that from the article*, *that's why it's quoted.* I later admitted that I just yanked it for the overall gist of what it's saying too.
> 
> ...






Powerhouse said:


> *I didn't realise that you're the writer*, but still the same opinion holds.
> 
> I'm not referring to settling if you don't want to, but nobody is perfect. Also you shouldn't shame men for their neediness and horniness, we never know how much hardship they went through to get DSR and the attention of women, however it doesn't mean that you must submit to their desires if you don't want to. I would say to have standards, but to keep them within reasonable limits. There's a middle ground for everything.
> 
> That's true and it is a natural instinct to be attracted to what one considers to be physically attractive. A hard fact of life unfortunately.





Powerhouse said:


> If you're playing devil's advocate, but shouldn't there be something to state or to imply so?


She told she's not the writer. In fact, you pulled something that she specifically used quotation marks on to communicate that she didn't write it. Then for a second time, told you that she didn't write it. And then you assigned her as the writer. She's made it abundantly clear that she's not the writer. That is one hell of a reading comprehension failure on your part.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> @_monemi_ Thank goodness even us stone-aged devils have a modicum of willpower, right?


I cannot imagine, walking through life and every man I deal assuming in the back of my head: "He wants me." How pretentious of me would that be? I'm not taking SouthernSaxon's advice on this.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SouthernSaxon said:


> There is little I can add to your post without paraphrasing it or something that I've posted previously. However, I will dispense with a few misconceptions. I will admit taking pleasure in seeing arrogant women who have spurned many decent, reliable potential mates, or manipulated them, one day get cold feet and realise that they can't do it anymore. Is this really so vindictive? If someone treated you and your friends arrogantly, and eventually someone gave them a taste of their own medicine, would you feel sympathy?


What makes you presume they were arrogant, spurned or manipulated men? Looks like you're feeding your own anger here mate. Unless you think all attractive women are the same way, which is just your own prejudice.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Blacktide said:


> I have also found contemplating that idea of love being related to your physical appearance very uncomfortable. What helped me was putting it in context: if you were in your 20s would you want to be in a relationship with someone in their 80s? If physical appearance doesn’t matter (assuming your straight) could you see yourself in a relationship with someone of the same gender?
> 
> The fact of the matter is our physical state is probably the largest factor in determining initial attraction for the majority of people, and especially so for men.


Ironically, I used to date a lot of unattractive men and it was always terrible. I fell madly in love with a man who looks like he fell out of a magazine, and he's the FIRST person to not be insecure about how attractive I am. *_* People call us "the pretty couple" sometimes and I can tell they think we're a bit pretentious. I guess it's just biology in the end.


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## Blacktide (Sep 16, 2012)

devoid said:


> Ironically, I used to date a lot of unattractive men and it was always terrible. I fell madly in love with a man who looks like he fell out of a magazine, and he's the FIRST person to not be insecure about how attractive I am. *_* People call us "the pretty couple" sometimes and I can tell they think we're a bit pretentious. I guess it's just biology in the end.


It’s as you said, people tend to be attracted to others with similar body types. I wonder what would cause your previous dates to get insecure over your appearance, it seems like a strange insecurity to have in my mind. Then again I have never lacked self-confidence so it is difficult for me to put myself in their shoes.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Blacktide said:


> It’s as you said, people tend to be attracted to others with similar body types. I wonder what would cause your previous dates to get insecure over your appearance, it seems like a strange insecurity to have in my mind. Then again I have never lacked self-confidence so it is difficult for me to put myself in their shoes.


Many of them were quite self-confident, but they all ended up saying things like, "Why are you with me when you could be with someone better/more attractive/successful?" A few would complain that they feel fat and then get annoyed that I'm naturally thin, or even make fun of parts of my body when they were feeling self-conscious. I've had a few accuse me of cheating entirely because "You could have any man you want." Some of the heavier guys would say, "I'm afraid I'll hurt you by accident" because of my small bones. My current partner is very thin as well, and he's actually the first guy I've slept with who could fall on top of me after sex without my lungs being crushed. xD I've also heard complaints like "Your bony ___ is poking me" or "Your lap is so uncomfortable" which don't seem to be an issue at all with the current boyfriend. I guess we just "fit" together.


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## Blacktide (Sep 16, 2012)

devoid said:


> Many of them were quite self-confident, but they all ended up saying things like, "Why are you with me when you could be with someone better/more attractive/successful?" A few would complain that they feel fat and then get annoyed that I'm naturally thin, or even make fun of parts of my body when they were feeling self-conscious. I've had a few accuse me of cheating entirely because "You could have any man you want." Some of the heavier guys would say, "I'm afraid I'll hurt you by accident" because of my small bones. My current partner is very thin as well, and he's actually the first guy I've slept with who could fall on top of me after sex without my lungs being crushed. xD I've also heard complaints like "Your bony ___ is poking me" or "Your lap is so uncomfortable" which don't seem to be an issue at all with the current boyfriend. I guess we just "fit" together.


Oh wow, that sounds like jealousy and insecurity to me and I’m happy you found someone that you’re “fit” together with. When I hear lines like "Why are you with me when you could be with someone better/more attractive/successful?" I get the sense the person was seeking emotional validation and wasn’t self-confident at all.


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## ficsci (May 4, 2011)

My first reaction is that the guy who writes the article sounds angry.

I disagree on the part where he said women don't look at young men as sexual objects. I know tons of ppl around me who do. Except I think women don't want to fuck only the stereotype good-looking ones, but also ones who are attractive in other ways (cute, dorky, scary, etc)

As for the rest of the article, I dunno, it makes things seem so black and white that it's hard to believe. Yes there are some truths in it, but it makes it sound as if the only women that ever get treated nicely are the prettiest, perfect ones, which, based on my own experience doesn't seem true. Because some men are nice to me, and some aren't. Which could mean: 1)some find me attractive and some don't 2) people often told me I look like a kid, so I think some are nice to me because they get all parental towards me, and maybe some others are very very mildly pedophile. But see? The world isn't either perfect or horrible because some people still aren't nice to me.

The article makes men sound so 2-dimensional, like they're not complex enough to want to fuck anything other than a blond cheerleader. *You guys should really stop putting yourselves down like that.* 

Actually right now I live in a culture where guys supposedly prefer cute girls over pretty girls, (where some men admit wanting to fuck girls who are somewhat ugly but strangely cute) and are generally nice toward old grannies. Also, how on earth can this article ignore chubby-chasers and cougar-lovers?


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

devoid said:


> Many of them were quite self-confident, but they all ended up saying things like, "Why are you with me when you could be with someone better/more attractive/successful?" A few would complain that they feel fat and then get annoyed that I'm naturally thin, or even make fun of parts of my body when they were feeling self-conscious. I've had a few accuse me of cheating entirely because "You could have any man you want." Some of the heavier guys would say, "I'm afraid I'll hurt you by accident" because of my small bones. My current partner is very thin as well, and he's actually the first guy I've slept with who could fall on top of me after sex without my lungs being crushed. xD I've also heard complaints like "Your bony ___ is poking me" or "Your lap is so uncomfortable" which don't seem to be an issue at all with the current boyfriend. I guess we just "fit" together.


I can relate to this. I found myself in a relationship with a ridiculously attractive (seriously...) woman and there are definitely a lot of downsides to it. A lot of them probably wouldn't have existed if I was similarly attractive, but there was a clear discrepancy, and I found it very easy to feel insecure about it. Everyone noticed the mismatch and I could only assume that she did too. Being two fairly strange people, I knew intellectually that it was unlikely that she'd be able to find someone who matched her as well as I did in terms of our personalities, but for a while, a part of me still feared the possibility that one day she'd go out looking for the kind of guy that society tells attractive women like her that they should be dating (i.e. not me). I'd like to think that I handled those feelings of insecurity fairly well but it would be a lie to say that it didn't lead me to treat her poorly on occasion. Being fairly (but not completely) non superficial, I was often able to forget that she was much better looking than me, but society always found ways to remind me. On more than one occasion, I had people say things to me like, "So do you have some kind of inheritance or something that we don't know about?" They were kinda joking, but at the same time kinda not. Part of them didn't think that I deserved her. They saw injustice, if that makes any sense. Knowing that people are thinking that, and having them almost explicitly saying it, really wasn't a pleasant experience (for either of us). When they found out that I didn't have money, the next assumption that they made was that she was stupid. She wasn't (at all), but it was the only way that they could make sense of her being with someone like me.

I have a feeling that this was likely made worse by the fact that, despite being somewhat intelligent, I've often managed to give people the impression that I'm actually kinda dumb. Obviously, this just added to their sense of confusion.

The crazy thing is that this reaction from other men, which I'd say is pretty negative overall, is about the closest thing to an advantage of dating an attractive woman that I've ever been able to identify. I mean, a part of me really was proud to have confused them, and since a lot of these people thought that they were "better" than me -- more deserving of an attractive girl than me -- I felt like I'd beaten them in some strange way. But that whole game has always kinda sickened me; I really didn't want to be playing it, and so it was hard for me to find any real satisfaction in this apparent "victory" of mine. Such competition just wasn't satisfying. 

Some might assume that the sex is better, and while this is mostly an assumption on my part, I doubt that it is to any significant extent. The claim that dating an attractive woman is good for that reason, I think, is most likely false. (Though, I do think that some guys are aroused by the idea of "conquering" an attractive woman. Personally, I find that kinda sick, but even for such people, the initial attraction would likely fade considerably, if not completely, in a short space of time). 

As crazy as it might sound, a part of me really did desire for her to be less attractive. I decided that it just wasn't something that I valued -- or, if I did, the cons outweighed the pros. Basically, despite my failure to identify anything particularly desirable about dating an attractive woman, I found it very hard to shake the belief that the power balance was strongly in her favour; that I had more to lose than her. It made me very uncomfortable. So ingrained is this idealisation of female beauty. 

A lot of women speak of similar dynamics in their relationships. Being attractive makes it easy for them to attract men initially, but once they're in a relationship with one, the perceived power imbalance leads to insecurity, making the relationship difficult. They can still use it to their advantage, of course, but only if they're looking for sex more than a relationship. But really, that's not without it's fair share of problems either. Society hates such women, labelling them as sluts/whores, and a lot of the men that they'll find are the ones who I mentioned before -- those who are just out to "conquer" an attractive woman because it boosts their egos. I can't imagine it being a particularly satisfying life. Not only that, mainstream society sees such women as privileged and people feel little remorse for treating them badly, thinking that they're really just evening things out. 

I guess the point of all this is just to say that attractive women, despite this obsessive idealisation of them, don't really get this enormous advantage that we seem to think they do. The things that they genuinely do come easy for them often aren't all that they're made out to be, and they also come at a cost. Such women are objectified by society, resented by women and men seek to dominate them. Being attractive might still be an advantage -- it certainly is, in some contexts -- but overall I don't see them as being in a particularly enviable position.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

@Mee2 - Who initiated the relationship, out of curiosity? (If you don't mind sharing).


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

@Veggie
It was pretty mutual, honestly. I think she admitted that she liked me first, but she wasn't risking rejection or anything like that; it was obvious to both of us that we liked each other.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Penguin said:


> The Awesome Temporary Power Of Young Attractive Women
> 
> 
> ^ I saw this on facebook, not so sure I agree with everything they say but I do agree with some of it. Should spark some good discussion I hope, keep it civil please.


Maybe I'm just on a roll because I had 3 different attractive women flake on me this weekend, buuuuuut it seems spot on.

It's really really really not easy (and so I often avoid extended interaction with them when I know they're unavailable or uninterested) to treat someone I find incredibly attractive like I don't want to have sex with them - and also to maybe make babies with them and raise them and get a house and have awesome adventures. 

There are at least 10 women I know in person that affect me to some degree - either because my mind constantly wanders to what they look like naked, what they like in bed, how it would feel to hold them close, or in one instance because my brain quite literally stops working. There is one (and only one) woman I've known in 27 years who has managed to make any and every thought disappear from my head - even when I'm in mid-sentence - when I look at her face. I would give anything to be with her. But of course, I can't tell her that. A smile and eye contact from her makes me feel like I might pass out. One time she stretched her leg in front of me and said "Mmmm, that feels good" and I about freaked out and took off running. 
I've never felt so powerless to resist someone before.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

William I am said:


> Maybe I'm just on a roll because I had 3 different attractive women flake on me this weekend, buuuuuut it seems spot on.
> 
> It's really really really not easy (and so I often avoid extended interaction with them when I know they're unavailable or uninterested) to treat someone I find incredibly attractive like I don't want to have sex with them - and also to maybe make babies with them and raise them and get a house and have awesome adventures.
> 
> ...



I think you're even more sexually wired than I am haha damn dude...I can keep my cool around just about any level of attractiveness, I will agree though that when I want someone badly enough (like if she's a 9 and I love her personality) I always fuck it up either I play it TOO cool and they think I'm not interested, or I say something out of character which is always a turn off when you're not genuine. 

I think girls would rather you say "I want to fuck your brains out right now." than sit there and listen to you spew bullshit in a thinly veiled attempt to trick them into it.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Penguin said:


> I think you're even more sexually wired than I am haha damn dude...I can keep my cool around just about any level of attractiveness, I will agree though that when I want someone badly enough (like if she's a 9 and I love her personality) I always fuck it up either I play it TOO cool and they think I'm not interested, or I say something out of character which is always a turn off when you're not genuine.
> 
> I think girls would rather you say "I want to fuck your brains out right now." than sit there and listen to you spew bullshit in a thinly veiled attempt to trick them into it.


I have to say I respect you for giving me and other women an insight to your mind. Very interesting!


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I have to say I respect you for giving me and other women an insight to your mind. Very interesting!


Thanks  that's all I'm trying to do I think it does help even if you hate me or disagree.


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## hubcap (Mar 25, 2014)

I read the article and think the author is quite presumptuous to assume that all the men in the world view women in the same shallow manner he does. Perhaps horny hormone charged youngsters who don't get laid much do look at every pretty woman as a sex object but I don't think that mature men share this view. By the time I was in my mid-20's I had matured to the point that I appreciated the beauty of pretty or shapely woman without equating her beauty to sex. Now that I am middle-aged I still appreciate the beauty of young women but am far more attracted to women more my own age. Not that I wouldn't do a fling with a beautiful young woman, I would be far more interested in a fling with an attractive middle-aged woman. Besides, sex with young women generally isn't nearly as good as sex with older, more experienced women. 

I don't think most men are nearly as shallow as the author of the article would like to believe.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Penguin said:


> I think you're even more sexually wired than I am haha damn dude...I can keep my cool around just about any level of attractiveness, I will agree though that when I want someone badly enough (like if she's a 9 and I love her personality) I always fuck it up either I play it TOO cool and they think I'm not interested, or I say something out of character which is always a turn off when you're not genuine.
> 
> I think girls would rather you say "I want to fuck your brains out right now." than sit there and listen to you spew bullshit in a thinly veiled attempt to trick them into it.


I swear she's the only woman who's ever affected me like that. I'm usually the guy hitting on the 8-10 that my buddies are fantasizing about but not approaching. The thing is, I'm pretty sure she knows I want to fuck her brains out, so I don't know why I should say it.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Do you really have to refer to people as numbers though? 

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Do you really have to refer to people as numbers though?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk


My mom and dad both worked at a pizza joint in the 70's as teens and he said that the dudes rated the chicks on the pizza scale of 1 - 25 (the different options). My mom was apparently a 25 with extra cheese and he told her this, married the poop out of her, had three kids, has stayed with her for 30 years, and still romances her. She laughs about the extra cheese story too. (Sense of humor).

It's a way to validate like anything else. It's kind of fun and flattering, imo.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Do you really have to refer to people as numbers though?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk


Beauty is always relative. Why not be efficient about communicate it? 

Women are not numbers, but the numbers are applicable.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

William I am said:


> Beauty is always relative. Why not be efficient about communicate it?
> 
> Women are not numbers, but the numbers are applicable.


I understand that beauty is relative and subjective but to refer to people as '8's and '9's just sounds childish tbh.



> It's a way to validate like anything else. It's kind of fun and flattering, imo.


It's flattering to be placed on a numerical scale based on your hotness/attractiveness?


I get what you're trying to say but.....no... I think most women would find that shallow.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I understand that beauty is relative and subjective but to refer to people as '8's and '9's just sounds childish tbh.
> 
> 
> It's flattering to be placed on a numerical scale based on your hotness/attractiveness?
> ...


If you have a better idea that doesn't take 3 sentences to give the same amount of info, I'm all ears.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

Veggie said:


> My mom and dad both worked at a pizza joint in the 70's as teens and he said that the dudes rated the chicks on the pizza scale of 1 - 25 (the different options). My mom was apparently a 25 with extra cheese and he told her this, married the poop out of her, had three kids, has stayed with her for 30 years, and still romances her. She laughs about the extra cheese story too. (Sense of humor).
> 
> It's a way to validate like anything else. It's kind of fun and flattering, imo.


My Two Cents:

I think it can be harmless, but it is a bit disrespectful so people should be mindful of that. 

I used to manage a coffee shop (all female employees) and it was brought to my attention one summer that a large number of our male customers had been ranking the girls by number and even coming up with nicknames for each of us. A few of them would repeatedly call me Sasha, which I initially ignored, which turned out to be some kind of "group joke" because I look like Sasha Grey (apparently, slight resemblance in my opinion).

I wasn't terribly pleased when I found out. Maybe I should've been flattered but in reality I was a bit put off to discover that myself and my girls were being sexualized like that, especially when some of them were as young as 14/15. It's hard to look someone politely in the eye after you've heard them number you or smirk as they address you by nickname. I found it a bit disrespectful, to be frank. 

Maybe when its done in the privacy of one person and their friends, well I guess it can be harmless fun. But it can also escalate to inappropriate pretty darn fast.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

William I am said:


> If you have a better idea that doesn't take 3 sentences to give the same amount of info, I'm all ears.


Lol wow okay nevermind. Apparently respect doesn't mean crap anymore.


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## Brother (Sep 21, 2013)

Always makes me a little frustrated when these persistent quirks of evolutionary psychology impacts society in such a big way.

As it looks, though, in the coming decades we'll cure aging long before we are able to coerce people into treating young beauties like everyone else - or vice versa.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

meh. theres a point to which I'm sensitive about others feelings but it isn't that big of a deal.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I understand that beauty is relative and subjective but to refer to people as '8's and '9's just sounds childish tbh..


Childish is fun sometimes. Life isn't so serious. Well, no, it is actually, it can be quite violent, and we all die. So, childish is fun sometimes.



isingthebodyelectric said:


> It's flattering to be placed on a numerical scale based on your hotness/attractiveness?


If you're on the upper end of that scale, sure. I don't need poetry as means for someone to communicate that they find me attractive. That's nice too though.



isingthebodyelectric said:


> I get what you're trying to say but.....no... I think most women would find that shallow


Lol, I'm not trying to say anything. I'm just saying it. Most? Eh. Some, I'm sure, yea.



BlackDog said:


> My Two Cents:
> 
> I used to manage a coffee shop (all female employees) and it was brought to my attention one summer that a large number of our male customers had been ranking the girls by number and even coming up with nicknames for each of us. A few of them would repeatedly call me Sasha, which I initially ignored, which turned out to be some kind of "group joke" because I look like Sasha Grey (apparently, slight resemblance in my opinion).
> 
> I wasn't terribly pleased when I found out. Maybe I should've been flattered but in reality I was a bit put off to discover that myself and my girls were being sexualized like that, especially when some of them were as young as 14/15.


I've worked places where guys have done this too. Apparently at one point, when I was a blonde, I was a young Kim Basinger (maybe the face shape and mouth?) There was an email chain going around where everyone was attaching pictures to the girls in the office...or so I learned from a friend. It didn't bother me. The girls just started one too. Everyone raised their game there though and it was a bit of fun motivation to work out and what not.

14/15 - yea, that's a little weird. It's hard to gauge age sometimes though.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

@Veggie 

Maybe if I had not been in a position of authority it would not have irked me so much. I felt (and still would, if I were still employed there) that one of my responsibilities as their supervisor was to ensure a professional, safe, respectful work environment. Don't get me wrong, we had fun too. I was only nineteen myself, so its not like I was super strict with them. But when there are *girls* (not women) who are being objecrified like that and are already shy to begin with, it gets under my skin. We were there to do a job and its hard to do that when you aren't comfortable. 

One follow went so far as to physically touch someone but I put an abrupt and impolite stop to that at once, and he was never welcomed back. He was the only one to do that but we were all very watchful from then on. 

I actually only found out about the numbering and nicknames originally because a friend of mine worked with a bunch of them at the golf club across the road. He said they'd joke about us and sometimes get rather sexually explicit. I mean, boys will be boys and all that but I can't help being uncomfortable. If they wanted to do that they should have kept it to themselves and out of the shop. Its not conducive to a healthy work environment, in my opinion.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

BlackDog said:


> @Veggie
> 
> Maybe if I had not been in a position of authority it would not have irked me so much. I felt (and still would, if I were still employed there) that one of my responsibilities as their supervisor was to ensure a professional, safe, respectful work environment. Don't get me wrong, we had fun too. I was only nineteen myself, so its not like I was super strict with them. But when there are *girls* (not women) who are being objecrified like that and are already shy to begin with, it gets under my skin. We were there to do a job and its hard to do that when you aren't comfortable.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but boys will be boys is not an excuse for behaviour like that. 

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I'm sorry but boys will be boys is not an excuse for behaviour like that.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk


I agree, but what they did outside the shop wasn't really my concern. If they felt the need to do that they should have kept it out of the work environment (especially the nicknames and physical contact, although that did only happen once). 

Anyway, maybe we were supposed to be flattered by the numbering but mostly it was just uncomfortable.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

BlackDog said:


> @Veggie
> 
> Maybe if I had not been in a position of authority it would not have irked me so much. I felt (and still would, if I were still employed there) that one of my responsibilities as their supervisor was to ensure a professional, safe, respectful work environment.


I can see that.



BlackDog said:


> But when there are *girls* (not women) who are being objecrified like that and are already shy to begin with, it gets under my skin. We were there to do a job and its hard to do that when you aren't comfortable.


You know, this brings up an interesting point that kind of ties back to the article. 

_"No man would put on a tuxedo, tuck a copy of Bride magazine under his arm, and flirt with a group of unattractive, overweight 34-year-old women. We would see the cruelty in it. But a young pretty girl may have no qualms about teasing the men she encounters by pretending to offer up what they want. A man’s memory for this behavior is long, and some will enjoy the revenge which comes from becoming a particularly cruel player."_

I was pretty shy as a teen too. I remember my first job feeling objectified by the cooks at a restaurant where I was (illegally, it was so shady there, lol) working and getting upset about it at first. Then I took power back by just screwing with them though. So - dudes - sometimes the teasing is a defensive mechanism.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

BlackDog said:


> I agree, but what they did outside the shop wasn't really my concern. If they felt the need to do that they should have kept it out of the work environment (especially the nicknames and physical contact, although that did only happen once).
> 
> Anyway, maybe we were supposed to be flattered by the numbering but mostly it was just uncomfortable.


Women shouldn't feel flattered by blatant harassment imo. I think it's wrong we're taught we're uptight ugly weirdos if we don't appreciate that kind of disrespect. We're not in the wrong there.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Women shouldn't feel flattered by blatant harassment imo. I think it's wrong we're taught we're uptight ugly weirdos if we don't appreciate that kind of disrespect. We're not in the wrong there.


And women who think it's playful and mostly harmless aren't archaic hussies, either.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Veggie said:


> And women who think it's playful and mostly harmless aren't archaic hussies, either.


What does this mean?

Edit: I think I got you. Nowhere did I say that though. At the very least it's disrespectful. It worries me somewhat you think it's somehow flattering to be blatantly disrespected and objectified but it's your choice. It's not surprising if other women find it crass, though. Men shouldn't presume automatically that women like that kind of attention, that's all I'm saying.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Edit: I think I got you. Nowhere did I say that though. At the very least it's disrespectful. It worries me somewhat you think it's somehow flattering to be blatantly disrespected and objectified but it's your choice. It's not surprising if other women find it crass, though. Men shouldn't presume automatically that women like that kind of attention, that's all I'm saying.


I get where you're coming from. In the past I've gotten the impression that there are certain things women are just supposed to accept (like numbering, catcalling, whistling) and that we shouldn't be uptight about it. But I can't imagine treating someone like that, it doesn't seem respectful in any way. 

I dunno, I see attractive men on the street sometimes but I don't feel the need to whistle or rate them, or even tell them they're "hot". I don't care if other people enjoy it, they can have their fun or flirtatious encounters, but I reserve the right to not enjoy it. I also reserve the right to offended or uncomfortable, especially when in a work or professional environment.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

@_BlackDog_, your post illuminates a couple of things:
1) There will always be some individuals who can't seem to understand when they've gone too far. Glad (but not at all surprised) to hear that you put an end to the blatant sexual harassment. We have a guy here at work who touches women inappropriately and should have been fired a long time ago according to company rules. The reason why he is still here is because a) he is a contractor, so that is the legal loophole the company uses b) women don't report him because it has not given any results so far and because many of us feel sorry for the guy (and this is another pretty interesting side-discussion. Many people say that sexual harassment report stats are misleading because there are so many false reports, while I actually believe it to be the opposite - sexual harassment is often NOT reported for many various reasons; fear of repercussions, the fact that nothing good comes out of it, the victim feels guilty about the harasser potentially losing their job, lack of solid proof, etc).
2) Some studies indicate that a main weaknesses men have as a gender is the 'pack mentality'. Men are often much more easily impacted by peer pressure than women are. The men that try to break from the group are often punished more severely than women doing the same, ex homosexual men vs women, where men often run a higher risk at harsh treatment. 
This means that often boys/men make very poor decisions to fit in with their peers and it escalates as the individuals challenges each other to more extreme behaviors. In addition, by treating other groups disrespectfully, a sense of unity is created: the "us against them" mentality. 
This culture combined with poor judgement (as in lack of maturity) can create a perfect storm where things can get really out of hand.
Many things that are started for 'fun' can end in rather ugly scenarios.

As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I was pretty upset when I realized that they way the men on my teams (and even men who were not on my team) talked about me negatively impacted the way they interacted with me on a professional level. I don't give a crap about what 'rating' I have, but I don't want my male colleagues to sit and compare notes with each other - it is just icky and not 'fun' at all. The general lack of respect this behavior demonstrates can negatively impact my chances of promotions, pay-raises, etc. It is not a good or fair situation.
I think that this general behavior points to a much bigger problem than many of us understand.

I also find it interesting that, to generalize very broadly, men seem to often act out their frustrations by punishing people around them (like the views expressed in the article, where the ownership for the negative feelings is placed on the innocent party who in reality has no power whatsoever to change anything), while women seem to often turn the frustration inwards ("None likes/loves/notices me - what is wrong with me?").

When thinking more about it, the article smells of schadenfreude and that is not a positive or constructive way to deal with a problem.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> What does this mean?


Just that my choosing to disagree with you doesn't equal a lack of respect. You were the one who stated that we "shouldn't" feel flattered after I had stated that I did so I am now on the defensive myself.

I choose to feel flattered because it's not worth being pissed off all the time over. I gave the restaurant example (I wasn't technically illegally working there, but I was waiting tables and I wasn't old enough) because it was kind of a turning point for me. Do I employ strategy to make this work to my benefit or do I quit (a lot of my friends worked there and it really was a lot of fun) or let these guys have power over me? I decided to get free food and stuff out of it instead. I was goofy enough at the same time about it that I didn't feel that anyone was a real threat to my safety. Laughter diffuses.

Abandoning the playful has never worked for me. I've had rejected dudes do the most ridiculous things too. I would get this A LOT at that age. My senior year of high school, for example, a guy that I'd never even met before found out that it was my birthday somehow, bought me a bracelet and wrote me a love letter that I had to return because I was seeing someone else from a different school (I felt so guilty). Another guy paid my sister to "talk him up" to me and broke his hand when I wouldn't date him punching a wall. One dude did a freestyle on karaoke about what a slut I was at this massive party because I wouldn't sleep with him. 

I mean...just weird, weird stuff. You develop a complex over time (I got over the notion that men should behave like Ryan Gosling a very long time ago). I've decided to keep it light. It's easier. I've actually, ironically, gained more respect that way too...and therefore felt less objectified.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> And women who think it's playful and mostly harmless aren't archaic hussies, either.


At no point have I thought you were a 'hussie'. (I'm really out of my element using that word. I've only ever seen it on old American media.) I can't say I actually enjoy it. But I learned to have fun with guys showing unwanted attention. I don't have to be nasty about it. That doesn't change that I don't like being objectified. I don't give a crap if I look like I've been objectified. I know the relationship and what it is and what it isn't. I don't take myself too seriously and can have a sense of humour. But I'm more than a number and strange men assigning me a number is rude. I don't assign strangers a number. When I wanted to tell a friend about a person I was interested in, I told them about the person. I didn't use a number because that doesn't tell you much and is demeaning.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Veggie said:


> One dude did a freestyle on karaoke about what a slut I was at this massive party because I wouldn't sleep with him.


I've experienced that one repeatedly myself. You don't sleep with them, so they tell everyone who knows who you are that you're a massive slut. If you sleep with them, you're a slut. If you don't sleep with them, you're a slut. There are a lot of men who don't make any sense.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Just that my choosing to disagree with you doesn't equal a lack of respect. You were the one who stated that we "shouldn't" feel flattered after I had stated that I did so I am now on the defensive myself.
> 
> I choose to feel flattered because it's not worth being pissed off all the time over. I gave the restaurant example (I wasn't technically illegally working there, but I was waiting tables and I wasn't old enough) because it was kind of a turning point for me. Do I employ strategy to make this work to my benefit or do I quit (a lot of my friends worked there and it really was a lot of fun) or let these guys have power over me? I decided to get free food and stuff out of it instead. I was goofy enough at the same time about it that I didn't feel that anyone was a real threat to my safety. Laughter diffuses.
> 
> ...


I absolutely understand your point of view and respect that you have chosen to explain it when it couldn't have been easy to.

I'm just sorry for you and for other women out there that have decided that they need to change their attitudes to 'deal with' harrassment. It's not right. People should not have to put up with being harrassed like that in any way shape or form. Yes, going OT in this topic but it's a concern of mine that the more we as a society ignore the ol' boys club that decide treating women like meat and objects is okay, the worse it will get. And the disrespect has gotten worse, not better. I don't want to have to tell my daughter in the future to just 'deal with' these attitudes because they are girls and they 'should just expect it.'




> We have a guy here at work who touches women inappropriately and should have been fired a long time ago according to company rules. The reason why he is still here is because a) he is a contractor, so that is the legal loophole the company uses b) women don't report him because it has not given any results so far and because many of us feel sorry for the guy (and this is another pretty interesting side-discussion. Many people say that sexual harassment report stats are misleading because there are so many false reports, while I actually believe it to be the opposite - sexual harassment is often NOT reported for many various reasons; fear of repercussions, the fact that nothing good comes out of it, the victim feels guilty about the harasser potentially losing their job, lack of solid proof, etc).


He needs to be reported, not ignored. The problem with harrassment gets worse and gets overlooked because people are afraid of reporting people like this. It's disgusting that people won't report him because 'he's a contractor'. What, so he should have free reign to abuse women like that? It's 2014, for Pete's sake. 




> Some studies indicate that a main weaknesses men have as a gender is the 'pack mentality'. Men are often much more easily impacted by peer pressure than women are. The men that try to break from the group are often punished more severely than women doing the same, ex homosexual men vs women, where men often run a higher risk at harsh treatment. This means that often boys/men make very poor decisions to fit in with their peers and it escalates as the individuals challenges each other to more extreme behaviors.


I'm sorry, I get what you're saying but this just sounds like you're excusing people's attitudes to me. It's easy not to be disprespectful towards people, you just don't be disrespectful towards people. I don't believe men believe it makes it easier for them to 'fit into packs' if they're disgusting towards women. I don't buy it. It's no excuse.

Like @_monemi_ (?) said, if she (or indeed I) see a good looking man on the street, our first instinct is not to embarrass him, cat call him or harrass him so why is it ingrained into society that men are allowed to do that to us? It still happens because people allow it to happen, not because it's natural or down to gender roles, because it's ignored and seen as 'flattering' or 'funny' or 'harmless'. It escalates and it's not pretty. It's never harmless, if you get down into the mechanics of it.

tl;dr sorry.



> I've experienced that one repeatedly myself. You don't sleep with them, so they tell everyone who knows who you are that you're a massive slut. If you sleep with them, you're a slut. If you don't sleep with them, you're a slut. There are a lot of men who don't make any sense.


You're designed to lose, as a woman. In school, I was called a slut. To which I laughed at and said I was a virgin. He then made fun of me for being 'frigid' and a virgin. You can't win. So women shouldn't be taught to please a man or to fit their expectations, it won't happen and we will always lose.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I absolutely understand your point of view and respect that you have chosen to explain it when it couldn't have been easy to.


Actually, totally easy. What else would you like to know? I'm pretty confident in my story. It is what it is. Don't presume.



isingthebodyelectric said:


> I'm just sorry for you and for other women out there that have decided that they need to change their attitudes to 'deal with' harrassment.


Okay, I'm a big girl. You really don't have to feel sorry for me, I promise. I don't "deal with" harassment either, I use it to my advantage and often diffuse and transform it. Also, I like sex. If men look at me and think - hey! That one! I'd like to have sex with her! Well then cool, because it increases my chances of having sex, you know?


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

monemi said:


> I don't assign strangers a number. When I wanted to tell a friend about a person I was interested in, I told them about the person. I didn't use a number because that doesn't tell you much and is demeaning.


I actually have done this kind of stuff before, admittedly (bashful face, lol) so maybe that's why I feel more tolerant to it. Another line in the article that comes to mind:

"Many men hate the fact that attractive young women cast a spell over us. Unless you inhabit a horny man’s body, you can’t even begin to appreciate how intensely a beautiful woman affects us, how we struggle to stay focused when you are around. Maybe one reason men seek to be players is that it helps weaken your power over us."
@Swede - You did make some good points about how this can escalate, though.



monemi said:


> I've experienced that one repeatedly myself. You don't sleep with them, so they tell everyone who knows who you are that you're a massive slut. If you sleep with them, you're a slut. If you don't sleep with them, you're a slut. There are a lot of men who don't make any sense.


Right?! Ugh. I've also dealt with guys just pretending that we had sex to their bro's (therefore, obviously I'm a slut, lol) to save face, and of course they'll care less about how that's received for me if they've been rejected.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

Veggie said:


> Actually, totally easy. What else would you like to know? I'm pretty confident in my story. It is what it is. Don't presume.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm a big girl. You really don't have to feel sorry for me, I promise. I don't "deal with" harassment either, I use it to my advantage and often diffuse and transform it. Also, I like sex. If men look at me and think - hey! That one! I'd like to have sex with her! Well then cool, because it increases my chances of having sex, you know?


Haha I think its less about liking/not liking sex and more about appropriate behaviour. 

I like sex. I also like back rubs. However, if a guy in my office starts telling people I have a nice back and he wants to rub it I'm still going to be uncomfortable. And how much more intimate is sex?


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

g_w said:


> But yeah, I have cried, begged, manipulated, masturbated alone in the bathroom in the middle of the night too... doesn't make you feel good, does it? The thing is that many young men are incredibly focused on sex until they have a sexual partner - things often calm down a lot after that.
> And obviously we have some common ground when it comes to our experiences in _*KY*_ as well.
> 
> Presumably unintentionally hilarious juxtaposition there. (KY Jelly is the name brand of a popular artificial sexual lubricant...):shocked:


It's a bit sad and slightly disturbing that this was the only part of my posts you thought was worth pondering. Oh well...


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

Swede said:


> It's a bit sad and slightly concerning that this was the only part of my posts you thought was worth pondering. Oh well...


Swede,Swede,Swede...(strums fingers impatiently on desk).
How can you expect me to resist a pun?

I found the dueling-wall-of-text too hard to follow concisely.
And I've had a couple of other distractions...
I promise to do better next time.

(I might even double back and re-read your posts. But not tonight: I'm biking into work tomorrow (34 mile round trip) cause it's the first time it has hit 70 degrees since maybe September...)

So I need my beddy-bye basket time (as my wife calls it).

G'night 
laughing: ZZZZZZZZZZZ) <-- dual-usage laughter logo, repurposed for snoring


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

g_w said:


> I promise to do better next time.


Good, I have it here black on white! I expect better from you g_w - that includes the quality of your puns! ;-)

Good night and no pulling groin muscles tomorrow! (And your wife sounds hilarious and sweet. "Buddy-bye basket time". Wow, that is just too funny - LOL!


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

Swede said:


> Good, I have it here black on white! I expect better from you g_w - that includes the quality of your puns! ;-)
> 
> Good night and no pulling groin muscles tomorrow! (And your wife sounds hilarious and sweet. "Buddy-bye basket time". Wow, that is just too funny - LOL!


It's from Disney's The Aristocats : Lafayette, the Basset Hound, speaks of his beddy-bye basket...so my wife adopted the phrase, "It's beddy-bye basket time."

And it's OK for me to post this: I was pumping up the bike tires and plugging in the battery for the light...


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

g_w said:


> It's from Disney's The Aristocats : Lafayette, the Basset Hound, speaks of his beddy-bye basket...so my wife adopted the phrase, "It's beddy-bye basket time."
> 
> And it's OK for me to post this: I was pumping up the bike tires and plugging in the battery for the light...


Mhmm, excuses, excuses - I'm telling your wife!


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

I haven't read the entirety of posts here but I did read the article. 

My response simply to the heading is that the ' awesome power' that is perceived by the author of young attractive women is a bit of a sham. 

I think that you may get doors opened for you as an attractive woman but you can bet that someone is going to pat your butt on the way through it. It sucked for me. I can remember not being taken seriously too often, if was it was because there was the hidden agenda of both men and women who were wanting to sleep with me. Having the constant surveillance of the stare was invading to my sense of privacy. I'd spend a fair amount of time trying not to be attractive, baggy clothes, no makeup, even a little scary punk type clothing and wildly coloured hair did not seem to stop the sexual attention. I know this probably sounds conceited but when you're told by people how enigmatic, alluring, beautiful you are on a continual basis then maybe, just maybe you might be somewhat attractive. I can honestly say I never floated my way through life winning the lottery. I had my father constantly nagging me in my teens and 20s to model so he could manage me, so I got a big arsed tattoo on my arm. I could never tell when a compliment about anything I did outside of looking fabulous was real.... I was just confused. People didn't cut me slack at all. I had women hating on me for no other reason than their ugly, ill mannered husband was looking at me. If I spoke I was often met with criticism, not for the content but rather more like the fact that I spoke.....what business did I have actually thinking or having strong opinions? 



Now in my 40s it was only up to the last year or so with medication that gives me a moon face (and gained 20 kilos to a 'normal' weight) that the attention has dulled and I am so very appreciative that I don't get that attention any more. I just fucking love it.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

^ sorry your beauty has been a curse. I was never physically attractive until I hit my 20s and I can tell you its definitely better.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Penguin said:


> ^ sorry your beauty has been a curse. I was never physically attractive until I hit my 20s and I can tell you its definitely better.


Idgi do you mean you didn't realise you were until your 20s?

Btw @bethdeth, unattractive women are still harassed. All women are.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Idgi do you mean you didn't realise you were until your 20s?
> 
> Btw @_bethdeth_, unattractive women are still harassed. All women are.


btw so are men. lets not turn this into a feminist circle jerk.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Penguin said:


> btw so are men. lets not turn this into a feminist circle jerk.


Oh alright.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Penguin said:


> btw so are men. lets not turn this into a feminist circle jerk.


According to your article it's supposedly worse for women and stuff though


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Veggie said:


> According to your article it's supposedly worse for women and stuff though


my article? so now I wrote it? watch your wording haha


I would agree that it is both worse and better. So more extreme, probably.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Penguin said:


> btw so are men. lets not turn this into a feminist circle jerk.


*sighs* So you still don't get what feminism is, I notice... :dry:


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Penguin said:


> my article? so now I wrote it? watch your wording haha


Wait, so you didn't write the article?


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Idgi do you mean you didn't realise you were until your 20s?
> 
> Btw @bethdeth, unattractive women are still harassed. All women are.


Yeah I know. That's just my perspective on what happened with me. I just got a whole heap happier with age and didn't experience winning the lottery, unlike the article suggests.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

bethdeth said:


> Yeah I know. That's just my perspective on what happened with me. I just got a whole heap happier with age and didn't experience winning the lottery, unlike the article suggests.


Hmmm, so now we have two INTJ females from GenX saying pretty much the same thing... Who'd have thought? lol


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Penguin said:


> my article? so now I wrote it? watch your wording haha.


Hmm, the thought actually struck me initially too, since you seemed so defensive about the view presented and not real open to a honest discussion.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Swede said:


> Hmmm, so now we have two INTJ females from GenX saying pretty much the same thing... Who'd have thought? lol


I came here through 'the rarity of INTJ women' page to see if other women could identify with the weirdness of being this type. I was pretty amazed that there are huge similarities in the struggles and triumphs. You can even generalise it to NT women. 

Apart from that I have a daughter who is nearly 20 who looks remarkably like a clone to me at the same age who experiences a lot of similarities but the difference is that she copes a whole heap better. She tells me about the ways she will put other women at ease by repeating that she has a boyfriend and talking about 'we' so there isn't any misunderstandings when chatting to their boyfriends. She notices a lot more than me at that age in the social sphere. INTP vs INTJ a whole world of difference. She understands 'the game' just that little bit better.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

bethdeth said:


> I came here through 'the rarity of INTJ women' page to see if other women could identify with the weirdness of being this type. I was pretty amazed that there are huge similarities in the struggles and triumphs. You can even generalise it to NT women.
> 
> Apart from that I have a daughter who is nearly 20 who looks remarkably like a clone to me at the same age who experiences a lot of similarities but the difference is that she copes a whole heap better. She tells me about the ways she will put other women at ease by repeating that she has a boyfriend and talking about 'we' so there isn't any misunderstandings when chatting to their boyfriends. She notices a lot more than me at that age in the social sphere. INTP vs INTJ a whole world of difference. She understands 'the game' just that little bit better.


I never really had any issues with gender until I moved to KY tbh. The culture change shock was pretty tremendous - I truly expected the US to be a lot more gender equal than it is.

I never had problems with women here - maybe because I work with 90% men, but I'm not sure. I think that my behavior is pretty non-threatening to women, but I have heard from close female friends that I was 'intimidating' the first time they met me. I think that my accent is partly to blame. lol


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Swede said:


> I never really had any issues with gender until I moved to KY tbh. The culture change shock was pretty tremendous - I truly expected the US to be a lot more gender equal than it is.
> 
> I never had problems with women here - maybe because I work with 90% men, but I'm not sure. I think that my behavior is pretty non-threatening to women, but I have heard from close female friends that I was 'intimidating' the first time they met me. I think that my accent is partly to blame. lol


Just in the last few months after visiting home I went visiting people with a male friend I've known for 30 years it seemed to be assumed that I was sleeping with him which was weird. The body language surely must have shown that we weren't. It was mentioned more than once that I had an SO back where I was living. AWKWARD. 

I've had women say that they were scared of me when I first met them and then they came to realise that I was actually really caring after talking one on one. There is a huge gap somewhere in there and I can't blame everyone else for it....inferior Se must have something to do with it. I never really experienced so many of these issues when hanging out with an ESFP friend. It was like she buffered a heap of misunderstandings for me by her chatter.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

bethdeth said:


> Just in the last few months after visiting home I went visiting people with a male friend I've known for 30 years it seemed to be assumed that I was sleeping with him which was weird. The body language surely must have shown that we weren't. It was mentioned more than once that I had an SO back where I was living. AWKWARD.
> * yep, sigh * People are so focused on sex and only sex, it's sad. To me personally, it would be worse if my husband grew very close to a female friend than if he got drunk, stupid and cheated on me with someone once. I would obviously have issues with both scenarios, but he's an INTJ, so yeah...
> 
> * I've had women say that they were scared of me when I first met them *and then they came to realise that I was actually really caring after talking one on one. There is a huge gap somewhere in there and I can't blame everyone else for it....inferior Se must have something to do with it. I never really experienced so many of these issues when hanging out with an ESFP friend. It was like she buffered a heap of misunderstandings for me by her chatter.


Maybe this is part of the (at least my) problem? Women and men tend to generally react very differently to intimidation. Many women often 'fall back' and wait and observe, while some men (who are easier to notice, because they are loud and obnoxious) react more aggressively by 'challenging' the 'threat'.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Swede said:


> Maybe this is part of the (at least my) problem? Women and men tend to generally react very differently to intimidation. Many women often 'fall back' and wait and observe, while some men (who are easier to notice, because they are loud and obnoxious) react more aggressively by 'challenging' the 'threat'.


I think there are more variances in the types too IMO. Not just men and women. I worked in an industry (hospitality) which had me socialising and interfacing with people all day and night to different degrees of familiarising and formalities.

There are some women who I meet and it's like we are instant fast friends like the ESFP friend. She seemed to understand more of my intent and could probably see I was more earnest in my aloofness than just being standoffish and reserved. The ENFP women I've known seem to be uncanny in the way they can see through the bullshit of aloofness too. NT women seem to have a similar way of interfacing so you can meet them on a sort of similar level of civility. There are few other types it takes more time for them to get you because INTJ women aren't 'normal'.

Some men have told me they were scared too and I guess there is expectation for a person *woman* to act a certain way (which is what I usually defy whether I mean to or not) so they are sort of thrown by how to react.

I guess that there is a threat by the way that I come across because my personality isn't totally see through or accessible for every other type even though I'm non-threatening.


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## dagnytaggart (Jun 6, 2010)

Lmao. Hear this, women who are 30 and up? Just lay down to be eaten alive by your 50 cats, because now that you're not giving the King of Throne excruciating boners at Starbucks, the world HATES you.

ALL HAGS TAKE NOTE: 
Expiration Date is 12 years after you're barely legal (18).


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

Why would women want respect and admiration when she canhave drunk guys leering at her on public transport?

I no longer find this fascist bullshit annoying now I justchoose to find its lack of self-awareness hilarious. The funniest ones are theessays about female solipsism written by a the purveyors of an ideology of self-centredsexual narcissism no less.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

@dagnytaggart and @626Stitch, I guess you two have it right - I tend to over-analyze everything, but maybe the best option is to just laugh about it. ;-)


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## lightsandloudnoises (Mar 16, 2014)

tl;dr thread, the article is sexist horseshit and creepy as fuck. Normal men don't think like that. kk


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Swede said:


> Hmm, the thought actually struck me initially too, since you seemed so defensive about the view presented and not real open to a honest discussion.


clearly you didn't read the entire thread or you're just reading what you want to. either way idgaf any more there isn't even a debate anymore its just the 4 most annoying people on the entire boards thanking each other repeatedly.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Penguin said:


> clearly you didn't read the entire thread or you're just reading what you want to. either way idgaf any more there isn't even a debate anymore its just the 4 most annoying people on the entire boards thanking each other repeatedly.


Meh, nothing to get upset about. See it a something positive - you have created a thread with 47 pages of responses! Most of my threads (which are actually much more interesting subjects, I modestly think) don't get nearly as much attention!


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

lightsandloudnoises said:


> tl;dr thread, the article is sexist horseshit and creepy as fuck. Normal men don't think like that. kk


Yeah, I notice huge disparity between internet theory on sexuality, and reality of sexuality.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Penguin said:


> its just the 4 most annoying people on the entire boards thanking each other repeatedly.


You know, just because you didn't name them, doesn't mean that you haven't insulted anyone.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

Mee2 said:


> You know, just because you didn't name them, doesn't mean that you haven't insulted anyone.


when did I mention that I cared?


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

OK, before this goes further and personal I'd like to say just to quit and get back on topic or leave it completely.

EDIT: This wasn't in reaction to your post so much @Penguin. Just in case this turns into a scrap match. It's an interesting topic to talk about. We can continue peacefully and objectively.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Penguin said:


> when did I mention that I cared?


What you seem to care about is getting away with it. Otherwise you would've just mentioned their names, right?


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

No more about people 'getting away' with insults thanks. No more 'last says'. Get on topic.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

The article started with a basic premise that is more or less true: guys are attracted to pretty girls; guys have sexual thoughts about girls they see that are dressed provocatively; girls tend to age and become less attractive over time. But the rest of his conjecture is rubbish.

There may be guys that think like the author does, but they're not the norm.

Personally, now that I'm older, pretty is ok, but I really notice nice. SWMBO is truly a nice person, which is extremely attractive to me.


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## Penguin (Sep 25, 2012)

bethdeth said:


> OK, before this goes further and personal I'd like to say just to quit and get back on topic or leave it completely.
> 
> EDIT: This wasn't in reaction to your post so much @_Penguin_. Just in case this turns into a scrap match. It's an interesting topic to talk about. We can continue peacefully and objectively.



good to see a mod doing their job right. I only intended this to be an interesting topic to discuss, as I stated in my OP...but no I never cared if I offended anyone by posting it. anyway...thanks


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Well, I've been paying attention ever since this thread and I can honestly say, at 32, I still catch guys checking me out, smile at me, hit on me, and sometimes I pick up on "too much" kindness from men (like the dude taking names at the restaurant who might call me "sweetie" when asking what he can do for me...gag to that, btw). Although, sometimes older women call me "sweetie" and I don't find that creepy, so maybe I'm biased there? Anyway, I don't think it all comes from sexual thoughts, but I'm not a guy, so I don't know for sure. Maybe I'll report back here in twenty years with my findings :tongue:


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> I can relate to this. I found myself in a relationship with a ridiculously attractive (seriously...) woman and there are definitely a lot of downsides to it. A lot of them probably wouldn't have existed if I was similarly attractive, but there was a clear discrepancy, and I found it very easy to feel insecure about it. Everyone noticed the mismatch and I could only assume that she did too. Being two fairly strange people, I knew intellectually that it was unlikely that she'd be able to find someone who matched her as well as I did in terms of our personalities, but for a while, a part of me still feared the possibility that one day she'd go out looking for the kind of guy that society tells attractive women like her that they should be dating (i.e. not me). I'd like to think that I handled those feelings of insecurity fairly well but it would be a lie to say that it didn't lead me to treat her poorly on occasion. Being fairly (but not completely) non superficial, I was often able to forget that she was much better looking than me, but society always found ways to remind me. On more than one occasion, I had people say things to me like, "So do you have some kind of inheritance or something that we don't know about?" They were kinda joking, but at the same time kinda not. Part of them didn't think that I deserved her. They saw injustice, if that makes any sense. Knowing that people are thinking that, and having them almost explicitly saying it, really wasn't a pleasant experience (for either of us). When they found out that I didn't have money, the next assumption that they made was that she was stupid. She wasn't (at all), but it was the only way that they could make sense of her being with someone like me.
> 
> I have a feeling that this was likely made worse by the fact that, despite being somewhat intelligent, I've often managed to give people the impression that I'm actually kinda dumb. Obviously, this just added to their sense of confusion.
> 
> ...


I think it's really impressive that you are able to be this honest with yourself about this. I personally never allowed "society" to dictate my choices to me. My former High School sweetheart was extremely unpopular, socially awkward and all of his peers were admonishing me for my involvement with him, by basically saying, "what are _you_ doing with him?" but to me; I couldn't have found a more caring, sweet and intelligent guy (and to me - which is all I really care about anyway - he was really cute) then him. I still consider myself extremely fortunate for having gotten to know this extraordinary individual and we are still very close friends to this day. I do not regret for one single second, disregarding ignorant sheeple's opinion of him.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> I think it's really impressive that you are able to be this honest with yourself about this. I personally never allowed "society" to dictate my choices to me. My former High School sweetheart was extremely unpopular, socially awkward and all of his peers were admonishing me for my involvement with him, by basically saying, "what are _you_ doing with him?" but to me; I couldn't have found a more caring, sweet and intelligent guy (and to me - which is all I really care about anyway - he was really cute) then him. I still consider myself extremely fortunate for having gotten to know this extraordinary individual and we are still very close friends to this day. I do not regret for one single second, disregarding ignorant sheeple's opinion of him.


Being honest with myself about it is easy. I feel no shame for my imperfections. Besides, it helps me learn, and I value that. Being honest with other people about it is a lot harder. They tend to be a little less forgiving. Still, I'm not sure what was so impressive about it. In all that text, I didn't admit to much. Just feelings, really. Besides, this stuff happened years ago. Even if people were harsh, I'm not that person any more. I wouldn't take it personally. Thanks for the kind words though . Interesting that you had a similar experience. Society's commentary on these things is strange, isn't it? And that's what my post was about, really: society. I contest the claim that attractive women have all these advantages. We obsess over them, certainly, and there are ways to extract privilege out of that if you know how. But is it worth the extra objectification? The extra jealousy and insecurity that it inspires? I doubt it. At the end of the day, it's our personality that makes up the bulk of our identity. Our physical bodies are only a small part of that. Exploiting one's attractiveness encourages people to focus on a part of you that isn't even really "you". I can't imagine it working too well.


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## Kyora (Mar 17, 2013)

Ok I've read it... That's interesting... So when men are being nice with a woman, it's only because they think of "banging" her? 
Well people tend to be nice with me, but I don't see myself as being pretty, I'm average but anyway...
I know that most guys I meet, only want one thing, and I'm not stereotyping, I'm just telling what I get out of discussion with the people I meet. I hear in the street "real nice comment" (trying to be sarcastic but I'm not good at that x)) saying "Watch her boobies, I'm going to see where she's going", and a friend of my ex boyfriend told me "I'm not interested in you, I'm only interested in your body".
But anyway, not all boys are like that. And there are also girls who are saying things like "oooh he's so attractive i want to bang him" (trust me a Friend of mine is like that... she only sees men as meat...)
I still believe, and I don't care if I'm being deluded, that all men are not like that  and the kindness I receive is because I'm nice with them also.


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