# Nice guys.



## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Navi said:


> Just look at this.


The first one looks like one of those ASPCA commercials Sarah Mclachlan's been doing for the past year. The second... I couldn't make it past 4 minutes. What whiney, nasaly, disgustingly annoying voices they have. That would be reason enough for anyone to not to be around them. Not to mention the irony of it all. 

I imagine the inside of their head is like this."I'm nice! Like me! What? You don't like me?! You stuck up bitch! You must not be thinking for yourself, if you did we'd be together, but since you'd rather have sex you actually want to have with no attachments you must be too dumb to think for yourself. Any woman who can think for herself would obviously choose a super nice guy like me!"

No sympathy for slimy two-faced fucks like that. You're not nice if you're pretending to be nice to get some sex, then turn into an asshole thinking you can strong-arm someone into wanting to fuck you.


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## Navi (Jul 8, 2012)

android654 said:


> The first one looks like one of those ASPCA commercials Sarah Mclachlan's been doing for the past year. The second... I couldn't make it past 4 minutes. What whiney, nasaly, disgustingly annoying voices they have. That would be reason enough for anyone to not to be around them. Not to mention the irony of it all.
> 
> I imagine the inside of their head is like this."I'm nice! Like me! What? You don't like me?! You stuck up bitch! You must not be thinking for yourself, if you did we'd be together, but since you'd rather have sex you actually want to have with no attachments you must be too dumb to think for yourself. Any woman who can think for herself would obviously choose a super nice guy like me!"
> 
> No sympathy for slimy two-faced fucks like that. You're not nice if you're pretending to be nice to get some sex, then turn into an asshole thinking you can strong-arm someone into wanting to fuck you.



Yep. 

Try watching several of their videos and reading their comments, ffs.








> Hickies are like gross...
> they are nice﻿ when they in a place no one else would see  lol


-torliciousness




> stop﻿ it your gonna make me drool.


-ShoTzVlogz


Oh Jesus. The irony.

This is the most tasteful exchange I have ever seen. :laughing:





And look at this shit.
Dear God Why?









Here's another one for ya.


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## CoakJoints (Feb 2, 2012)

Non-assertive guys finish last.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I remember the first time I encountered a self-described "nice guy." I was a teenager and in a chat-room online. The guy basically told me, "Are you a virgin? You aren't? Eugh--you slut. Too bad, because I've been waiting for a virgin, and I wanted to be your boyfriend--and now I won't--because you're not a virgin. Why didn't you just wait for me?"

And I was just like, Wow--I'm really glad I'm not a virgin now. He actually made me really appreciative of my state of non-purity. 



I tend to get confused over the nice guy issue because I thought any guy who isn't either a psychopath or abusive is basically a "nice guy." 

But it's way harder to consider the "nice guy" in context of "nice girl." I mean, I'm pretty nice--but there's another idea of a nice girl being someone who is like a housewife of the fifties--only virginal...I don't know "crazy about Elvis." Wait--that's from the Tom Petty song. But maybe the most dangerous nice guys are the ones who want women to be "nice girls"--nonsexual, quiet, tame, self-sacrificing, gentle, obedient, having no opinions....etc. 

I suppose I still don't absolutely understand the definitions.

I couldn't listen to the Women Want Hookup Culture video to the end--the man's voice was just dripping with contempt. Ew.


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## Navi (Jul 8, 2012)

meltedsorbet said:


> I remember the first time I encountered a self-described "nice guy." I was a teenager and in a chat-room online. The guy basically told me, "Are you a virgin? You aren't? Eugh--you slut. Too bad, because I've been waiting for a virgin, and I wanted to be your boyfriend--and now I won't--because you're not a virgin. Why didn't you just wait for me?"
> 
> And I was just like, Wow--I'm really glad I'm not a virgin now. He actually made me really appreciative of my state of non-purity.
> 
> ...


Exactly. 
And I really think it's ironic when they pick on women for not approaching them because they're nice guys.
Then they say they want a very traditionally feminine girl. 
What the _hell _do they want?




I've often found that these self-proclaimed "nice guys" are actually, rather dickish. 
I've seen many of them who lie. A _lot_. 
Their moral standards can often be very subjective and situational. 
I.e, "This girl is attractive, I will try to appease her. That girl is not, so she should stay as far the hell away from me."
They are very bitter and often delusional about their "niceness". 
Then they blame others for their own shortcomings. 

Dishonest, jilted, projecting. That is NOT a good look.







SuburbanLurker said:


> There's a difference between nice guys and "nice guys". The former have good principles and morals; they treat attractive women with just as much respect as they would any other person, no more, no less. They have confidence and don't feel entitled.
> 
> The latter, as has already been mentioned, are just desperate guys who treat attractive women like goddesses. They think acting like pathetic white knights and allowing women to use them as doormats will get them laid, and get all whiny and butthurt when it doesn't play out despite their efforts.
> 
> It's true that a lot of women are turned off by even the true nice guy, but girls like that have issues. Why would I want to be with a girl who thinks unwarranted arrogance, neglect and pompousness are positive traits?


This lad put it very eloquently. 

@_Paradox1987_ once also made another nice statement. And I hope you don't mind me putting this out there, but it's just so true.



> ...men that become all "no woman wants me"
> go into that weird "nice guy" void where they don't realise they're just being pillocks, and the eternal contraceptive is actually their personality and nothing else







That being said, "gold-diggers" are just as horrid as these nice guys. 
All in all, I believe in a merit-based/competence-based system. 
Rather like Confucianism, if you will. 


And do unto others as you would do to yourself. 
NO discrimination or subjectivity.

Because that is what is fair and just and right.


(That being said, I hope everyone would treat yourselves well. There is nothing wrong with your talents and you can leverage it to become competent just as any other person.) 

"हम किसीसे कम नहीं" 
"Hum kisise kum nahin"
"We are no less than anyone".


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I know a nice guy who is probably marriage material, but he's self-defeating and in his own way.


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## Kyandigaru (Mar 11, 2012)

there was this guy who wrote on his profile, "i'm like the nice guy type". I didn't read this part of his profile and we started talking. Two weeks talking to him, he wanted to change me from the bottom up. Dayum... Made snarky comments towards my intellect and tried to bring me down. Obviously I didn't meet up with him, but when I went back to his page, I laughed my ass off when I read the above comment on his profile. I just realized something, when you refer to yourself as a 'nice guy/nice girl', then you're not very nice at all.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Kyandigaru said:


> I've had a guy tell me he was nice. Then I got cursed out by him three days later.
> he was so...not nice!


So much this too. 

Or similar circumstances.


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## Kyandigaru (Mar 11, 2012)

fourtines said:


> I know a nice guy who is probably marriage material, but he's self-defeating and in his own way.


in what ways? like self-sabotage?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Paradox1987 said:


> They do, but experience has shown me just how hard some people learn those lessons. One phrase that haunts me from my pro bono work in domestic violence litigation is "But he was such a nice man when I met him." Again, not for a second suggesting genuinely principled people would engage in domestic violence. However, "nice" people sometimes do the nastiest of things.


A person can be a deeply loving, loyal and giving, nurturing individual and still suffer from emotional or mental problems. They are by all intents a good person for caring for others and being true to their word, and even being emotionally sensitive...but that doesn't mean they don't have a substance abuse problem, anger issues, or boundary issues.

Another dynamic is the nice guy who wants to be a slave to a woman who doesn't appreciate him, and might actually balk at the woman who would treat him with kindness and give him loyal support.

These dudes are "masochists" not "nice."


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Kyandigaru said:


> in what ways? like self-sabotage?


Hmmm...I can't figure out if he picks the wrong circumstances for himself (masochist only wanting what they can't have) or that he simply shuts down when he should remain open, there-by creating emotional blockages and pushing people who would otherwise treat him well away, until they no longer want to be near him.

He also now seems to be developing a substance abuse problem, but I feel that it's just a symptom of the deeper issue, which is the first issue.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

SuburbanLurker said:


> There's a difference between nice guys and "nice guys". The former have good principles and morals; they treat attractive women with just as much respect as they would any other person, no more, no less. They have confidence and don't feel entitled.
> 
> The latter, as has already been mentioned, are just desperate guys who treat attractive women like goddesses. They think acting like pathetic white knights and allowing women to use them as doormats will get them laid, and get all whiny and butthurt when it doesn't play out despite their efforts.
> 
> It's true that a lot of women are turned off by even the true nice guy, but girls like that have issues. Why would I want to be with a girl who thinks unwarranted arrogance, neglect and pompousness are positive traits?


Oh well this pretty much sums up the thread. Thank you, sir.


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## Verthani (May 8, 2012)

If "Niceness" is your defining character trait your need to get more personality. 

Involuntary Celibacy, which is what most of the "Nice Guys" are complaining about is hardly limited to guys. In fact the incident that started most of the study of it and lead to it actually being considered an issue was the televised suicide of an anchorwoman named Christine Chubbuck who suffered from a fairly deep, life long depression because she never had an intimate relationship. It existed before then of course, but wasn't studied and is still understudied.

This is the list of causes of said Involuntary Celibacy:


Lack of suitable social circumstances conducive to sex 
Cognitive biases and/or negative explanatory styles such as learned helplessness or fundamental attribution error 
Self-sabotaging passive-aggressive patterns 
Self esteem issues affecting one's feeling of 'normal' entitlement 
Autism spectrum disorders such as Asperger's syndrome, which are associated with impairment of social skills 
Psychological disabilities such as social phobias, social anxiety, avoidant personality disorder or post traumatic stress disorder 
The long-term effects of rape, incest and child sexual abuse may shrink the pool of suitable, sexually available partners; some victims may become sexually unavailable due to the psychological trauma inflicted on them. 
Living in rural and suburban areas with constrained sexual, romantic, and marriage patterns 
Hypergamy, a phenomenon in which men with low socio-economic positions have limited sexual opportunities[SUP][39][/SUP] 
Heterosexual men who disqualify appealing women as "relationship material" based on the stereotype that beautiful women are less likely to be faithful as girlfriends or wives, or to become good mothers, and would be the most likely to seek divorce.[SUP][40][/SUP][SUP][41][/SUP] A man may not even pursue an exceptionally beautiful woman to begin with due to insecurity, his fear of rejection, and an assumption that she is already in a monogamous, long-term relationship.[SUP][42][/SUP] When such patterns become fixed and perpetual in a person's consciousness, involuntary celibacy is the usual result.[SUP][43][/SUP] 
Very attractive men and women who may not even be noticed and be ignored completely by members of the opposite sex who are in monogamous relationships. A Florida State University study concludes that an unconscious attentional bias serves to help men and women remain faithful to their spouses and significant others.[SUP][44][/SUP] 

Notice how none of these things have anything to do with being "too nice" or "too kind".


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Verthani said:


> If "Niceness" is your defining character trait your need to get more personality.
> 
> Involuntary Celibacy, which is what most of the "Nice Guys" are complaining about is hardly limited to guys. In fact the incident that started most of the study of it and lead to it actually being considered an issue was the televised suicide of an anchorwoman named Christine Chubbuck who suffered from a fairly deep, life long depression because she never had an intimate relationship. It existed before then of course, but wasn't studied and is still understudied.
> 
> ...


This is a very comprehensive list. I also just read about Christine Chubbuck, how disturbing, especially since it was indicated that even when people tried to be-friend her she was brusque and defensive and pushed them away.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

fourtines said:


> This is a very comprehensive list. I also just read about Christine Chubbuck, how disturbing, especially since it was indicated that even when people tried to be-friend her she was brusque and defensive and pushed them away.


It's a very sad self-defense mechanism that many people with mood disorders have. I had to break myself of this habit with CBT and DBT. I used to think that everyone hated me, and so I was definitely brusque and defensive and prickly much of the time. When I look back at my high school yearbooks, though, I realize that there were people who genuinely cared for me and about me to the point where one comment my junior year says: "We should hang out this summer. You never called to hang out last summer, and I would really like to stay in touch with you over the summer."


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> It's a very sad self-defense mechanism that many people with mood disorders have. I had to break myself of this habit with CBT and DBT. I used to think that everyone hated me, and so I was definitely brusque and defensive and prickly much of the time. When I look back at my high school yearbooks, though, I realize that there were people who genuinely cared for me and about me to the point where one comment my junior year says: "We should hang out this summer. You never called to hang out last summer, and I would really like to stay in touch with you over the summer."


That is sad *hugs*

I understand being defensive and reactive when feeling attacked, so it must be even more hellish to have this kind of guarded response to any kind of social interaction at all. 

I wonder sometimes if this is partially what is wrong with the "nice guy" I referred to earlier, if he struggles so much with depression and confidence issues and things like that, that his default response is to keep people far enough away so that they can't hurt him, but he ends up hurting anyway because he actually does want closeness.

He said his mom used to yell at him constantly, I'm sure this has something to do with it. I have sympathy toward it, but it is difficult when you're the person being pushed away.


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## Reicheru (Sep 24, 2011)

eurgh, those videos. and the comments... the very black & white way these individuals view the world disturbs me. where's that grey at, yo?



Diphenhydramine said:


> _But IM A NICE GUY! AND I GOT REJECTED! FUCK YOU ALL!_


"b-but you can't reject me! i'm NICE!! (screams of indignation)"


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## PlacentaCake (Jun 14, 2012)

Don't hide behind the "nice guys finish last" excuse. Get out there and go for what you want. Take a risk. If you get burned, you get burned. Wear your heart on your sleeve and be yourself... If you don't, you'll never experience love and you won't even enter the race. It is all learning anyway. Hey, no one is perfect, including yourself, so don't pretend you are.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

fourtines said:


> That is sad *hugs*
> 
> I understand being defensive and reactive when feeling attacked, so it must be even more hellish to have this kind of guarded response to any kind of social interaction at all.
> 
> ...


The self-defense mechanism is a vicious cycle in and of itself. 

The person says: "Everyone hates me." The person then acts in a way that distances themselves from others, usually by making themselves disagreeable. It ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My mood disorder was brought on by two things: genetics and stress. The stress was typically related to social situations, including having an emotionally absent alcoholic father and a sixth grade teacher with borderline personality disorder who verbally and emotionally abused me and whom the school refused to separate me from. According to the principal, I was merely overly sensitive and needed to "suck it up" and "stick it out" because they never reassign students away from teachers. From that point I started developing symptoms of MDD, and later in my teens, BD. At the lowest point in my depression is when I picked up this self-defense mechanism because it was my defense against my abusive teacher. It only became worse once I started showing signs of hypomania (hypomania increases my irritability.) That said, once again, my view of "everyone hates me" became something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## brasilesnumero1 (Oct 23, 2011)

Nice guys don't tend to finish last. It's "nice guys" with the quotations that do. The kind who sit around whining about what a great guy they are if only the girl could see it oh god why doesn't anyone love me. Those kinds of people finish last.


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## Raichan (Jul 15, 2010)

oh dear Lord.

not one of these again.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

marked174 said:


> I never claimed high moral fiber, and I never said anything about falling in love (most certainly not in regards to falling in love with me).
> 
> I never claimed that anyone was owed anything. (I believe such economic terms grossly miss the context and structure to achievable solutions)
> 
> ...


People naturally seek out weakness in others and use it against them.
I hate to break it to you, but you're rank with it.

Stop it. You're victimizing yourself. It's disgusting.

Nobody cares if you're a "good" person. People focus upon other qualities.
Churches are showing a high decline in common attendance.

Apparently, human "decency" does not have the appeal it once did.

Accepting this is your first step to a bigger world.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

android654 said:


> You need to talk to more men. A lot of guys who complain about not getting girls because they're "too nice" fit that description, and even more guys complain about not getting fucked soon enough after putting in X amount of time. Do you not talk to people abut sex?
> 
> Most smart people spend their time obsessed with their work. Real artists are too busy working on their next piece. Real geniuses care less about their title and more about their next discovery. People who love to admonish themselves with different titles to give a sense of importance are either liars or pompous asses who aren't even close to the level of accomplishment they would have you think.


I do, but the guys I know simply don't talk that way. The entitlement simply isn't there, neither is the theory that time equals sex. Most of the nice guys I know just want to make their crush happy and can't understand why the girls are always unsatisfied with the things in their lives, and attempt to do something to change it (usually to no avail). To me, it seems that these jerks you reference are simply over-represented, and that this is primarily because either the lying jerks are so impressionable or because no one wants to admit that they are taking advantage of someone and would rather play the victim, or perhaps both.

Regarding those who toot their own horn: words are words and actions are actions, and I do not conjoin the two. However, because words do not add to ones actions, those who choose to occupy their time speaking about themselves will find less time to prove themselves.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> People naturally seek out weakness in others and use it against them.
> I hate to break it to you, but you're rank with it.
> 
> Stop it. You're victimizing yourself. It's disgusting.
> ...


Naturally seeking out weakness in others is predatorily savage and beastial, and has no place in society.

Please provide substance through reasonable proofs to the claim that I am "rank with weakness". If you cannot do so, then please refrain from such baseless blathering.

In what way am I a victim (from anything other than baseless claims) and how am I victimizing myself?

In regards to the "nobody cares about morals anymore": Church attendance is hardly a worthy instrument in determining whether or not our society cares about morality. Please deliver a stronger case that no one cares about good people, because I am decidedly convinced of the contrary. Regardless, the priorities of the masses should not regulate the trajectory of our destiny, for if it did then we would lack the ability of having self-determinization. In other words, if we lived in a world where no one cares that still doesn't mean that no one should.

I suggest that the "human decency" has merely been more refined than the traditions of our ancient rites and customs and the oldest establishments of organized institutions have yet to catch up with them.

Why should take a first step into a bigger world which does not deserve the people who step into it?


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

android654 said:


> You need to talk to more men. A lot of guys who complain about not getting girls because they're "too nice" fit that description, and even more guys complain about not getting fucked soon enough after putting in X amount of time. Do you not talk to people abut sex?


Nope, that would require social skills.



android654 said:


> Most smart people spend their time obsessed with their work. Real artists are too busy working on their next piece. Real geniuses care less about their title and more about their next discovery. People who love to admonish themselves with different titles to give a sense of importance are either liars or pompous asses who aren't even close to the level of accomplishment they would have you think.


Can I add: Real losers are so busy doing nothing that they are probably thought to have achieved more by others than they actually have? That's the only box I fit and I'm definitely a non nice guy loser in this race.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

"I'm being a really nice guy with you. Why aren't you coming across with some offer of nasty NSA sex in exchange??? I don't understand!!??!"

I think women generally want relationships with guys who are clear on their own values and are assertive about looking after their own interests. If being a "nice guy" means you're wishy-washy and lack resolve, then it's right for you to be sidelined at this stage of your life. 

If you think you deserve a reward of something un-nice just for being nice, then your values probably need sorting out.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

Being nice isn't the same as being a doormat. Some guys make themselves into slaves then wonder why the girl doesn't respect them.

Be the best you that you can be and be confident in yourself. That's attractive. And remember, without communication, honesty, trust, and respect, you don't have a healthy relationship.

Communication: being assertive only needs to be as much as having a conversation. If I want an ice cream cone and only stare at the local shoppe, is it their fault for not giving me one? The approach varies by person, but telepathy won't get you anywhere.

Honesty: be yourself. Don't try to be something just because you think someone else wants it. No one should ever have to change for a relationship. Change is a personal choice and love is about accepting someone in spite of their faults. That also means acknowledging faults exist. There is no such thing as perfection.

Trust: mutual integrity means that both parties are mutually trustworthy. If you can't trust someone to value you for who you are without earning it, why are you trying? No one worth having should make you jump through hoops to prove something.

Respect: both yourself and your partner. Don't ever pursue a relationship as a goal. It's about spending time with someone you care about, not winning some vague prize.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

This thread seems so odd to me, as there just seems to be this massive source of anger at nice guys because they had bad experiences with guys who don't fit the definition of what a nice guy is in the first place. There are so many wrong and misinformed perceptions here that I don't even know where to start.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

SlowPoke68 said:


> "I'm being a really nice guy with you. Why aren't you coming across with some offer of nasty NSA sex in exchange??? I don't understand!!??!"
> 
> I think women generally want relationships with guys who are clear on their own values and are assertive about looking after their own interests. If being a "nice guy" means you're wishy-washy and lack resolve, then it's right for you to be sidelined at this stage of your life.
> 
> If you think you deserve a reward of something un-nice just for being nice, then your values probably need sorting out.


But those you described in the first and third paragraph are not always the ones you described in the second; in fact, I contend that many who "lack resolve" have nothing to do with those who feel entitled to sex.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Alysaria said:


> Being nice isn't the same as being a doormat. Some guys make themselves into slaves then wonder why the girl doesn't respect them.
> 
> Be the best you that you can be and be confident in yourself. That's attractive. And remember, without communication, honesty, trust, and respect, you don't have a healthy relationship.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this post, it was excellently put.roud:

While I do agree that someone who lets himself be used as a doormat should not be surprised when it happens, I think that our culture thoroughly enjoys blaming the victim in this instance (which is ironic in a world where victims hold no responsibility to their unfortunate circumstances). People have tried to be a doormat to me, and the deciding factor to whether or not I walked over them was not on them. *In the end, if I decide to walk over someone it is because I made the choice to be an inconsiderate asshole simply because the opportunity was present. *I don't have to walk over them, it is my choice This bolded point is almost entirely missed. It blows me away how many people justify taking advantage of someone who clearly has self-esteem issues and then mock them when they speak up. This is a problem to be fixed, and people should make it their aim to help others through support and truth (like the one who made this quoted post).


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

marked174 said:


> But those you described in the first and third paragraph are not always the ones you described in the second; in fact, I contend that many who "lack resolve" have nothing to do with those who feel entitled to sex.


It's exaggerated to make a point, but the point remains.

Read between the lines. Sex is what it's usually about. You can be a "nice guy" and be closer friends with a girl than any guy she's screwing. But even nice guys have that drive to breed, and so the frustration is essentially sexual. And if you ask the nice guy "are you ready to marry this girl and start a family with her and stay with her forever?", just watch the "ahhhh . . . errrr . . . ahhhhh . . . ummm. . . . ." start up.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

SlowPoke68 said:


> It's exaggerated to make a point, but the point remains.
> 
> Read between the lines. Sex is what it's usually about. You can be a "nice guy" and be closer friends with a girl than any guy she's screwing. But even nice guys have that drive to breed, and so the frustration is essentially sexual. And if you ask the nice guy "are you ready to marry this girl and start a family with her and stay with her forever?", just watch the "ahhhh . . . errrr . . . ahhhhh . . . ummm. . . . ." start up.


This is pretty much correct. Being so attached and so concerned with someone so quickly, which "nice guys" are famous for, definitely stems from a great source of self-interest. If I'm going to be so concerned with someone, spending all my time thinking of ways to care for them, it's definitely going to follow a lot of heavy interaction. It definitely seems feigned when some guy is obsessed with a girl he just met and devotes his entire existence to being nice to her just because.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

SlowPoke68 said:


> It's exaggerated to make a point, but the point remains.
> 
> Read between the lines. Sex is what it's usually about. You can be a "nice guy" and be closer friends with a girl than any guy she's screwing. But even nice guys have that drive to breed, and so the frustration is essentially sexual. And if you ask the nice guy "are you ready to marry this girl and start a family with her and stay with her forever?", just watch the "ahhhh . . . errrr . . . ahhhhh . . . ummm. . . . ." start up.


I think that might be a generalization that leads to hasty conclusions. Perhaps such instances should be measured on a case by case basis, especially when presuming motives.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

SlowPoke68 said:


> Sex is what it's usually about.


I disagree with this. I would describe myself as a nice guy (that's not all I am but I do fit the description of the wiki article in some parts) and that's not what it is all about at all for me. I have had relationships with three women and I have ended all of them because they were not treating me the right way they should have been while we were in a relationship. The core of the nice guy problem is that they are not treated well for their role in their relationships for whatever reason. It's not _solely_ sexual. What we are talking about right now to me doesn't even sound like the true nice guy problem. It sounds like women who are upset with bastards that tricked them into thinking that they were nice people who would give endlessly to them freely and then they got burned, which led them to making a judgement that all people who act nice are really just evil bastards only looking for sex.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm not even sure I'd want to be friends with one of these so-called "nice guys". My dad is in his 50s, divorced, and has two sets of children from different wives, but still has the qualities of the type of young men described in this thread: loves to play the victim, complains how others don't treat him with love or respect, and begs family members to go out with him every week, then gets mad when no one wants to.

Forget dating; if everyone leaves the room as soon as you enter, you've got a serious problem on your hands. The worst part is he has no intentions of changing any time soon.



android654 said:


> If you have to go around proclaiming what you are, chances are that you don't possess the qualities you think you do.


The reason I'm quoting you is because he literally goes around trying to validate himself by saying, "I'm a decent man. I _know_ I am," then tell everyone how there are worse guys to have as husbands and fathers out there. Just thought it would be a fair comparison. Needless to say, he wasn't my role model!


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

Arrow said:


> I disagree with this. I would describe myself as a nice guy (that's not all I am but I do fit the description of the wiki article in some parts) and that's not what it is all about at all for me. I have had relationships with three women and I have ended all of them because they were not treating me the right way they should have been while we were in a relationship.


Then one is forced to assume that they weren't getting what they needed out of those relationships, or that you weren't assertive enough about standing up for yourself when they started getting screwy and self-centered (as people regardless of gender tend to in any relationship), or maybe a combination of both.

And BTW: Life is not a John Hughes movie. Everyone is looking for sex, and very, very few of us are properly described as "evil bastards" just because we might be more upfront about it than others.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

SlowPoke68 said:


> Then one is forced to assume that they weren't getting what they needed out of those relationships, or that you weren't assertive enough about standing up for yourself when they started getting screwy and self-centered


I was definitely assert when I ended the relationship because it wasn't working for me and because I found their behavior unjustified. But that being said I believe my original point still stands, it's not about mating or even sexual drives. But about the fact that one type of person is not being valued in relationships for various reasons. I personally find that more interesting then whatever has been stated in the last few pages. The nice guy is not valued for sociological reasons and I think that is something that should be worth discussing. What is being discussed now isn't even the nice guy phenomenon as it's defined. It's some people acting nice to get what they want and not being genuinely good people.



> And BTW: Life is not a John Hughes movie. Everyone is looking for sex, and very, very few of us are properly described as "evil bastards" just because we might be more upfront about it than others.


It was exaggeration to prove a point. I wasn't talking about being direct, I was talking about the fact that all people who see themselves as nice people are being described in this thread as having some ulterior motive surrounding sex, and that's not at all true.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

Arrow said:


> It was exaggeration to prove a point. I wasn't talking about being direct, I was talking about the fact that all people who see themselves as nice people are being described in this thread as having some ulterior motive surrounding sex, and that's not at all true.


You're mistaken in even suggesting it's "ulterior". It might be unstated, but the motive is sexual. And that goes to the core.

Here's a thought experiement: I'll assume you're hetero. Tell me about your similar "nice guy" issues in relating to members of your own gender. Equally frustrating? Why or why not?


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

SlowPoke68 said:


> You're mistaken in even suggesting it's "ulterior". It might be unstated, but the motive is sexual. And that goes to the core.


Not really. I have female friends I am not even remotely interested in sexually. My best friend is a female and I don't want to have sex with her. So I am not at all sure what you are talking about here. 



SlowPoke68 said:


> Here's a thought experiement: I'll assume you're hetero. Tell me about your similar "nice guy" issues in relating to members of your own gender. Equally frustrating? Why or why not?


My only problem with some women is that I felt they didn't treat me the same way I treated them in terms of mutual respect and equal value. Sex was never the problem. I was never deprived of sex or physical affection. But it was clear they did not value me and what I brought to the relationship, as I did with them. The relationships did not feel equal and I removed myself from that situation because I didn't get what I needed to continue the relationship. I'm still friends with all of them, but romantically they were not giving me what I needed from them.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

SlowPoke68 said:


> You're mistaken in even suggesting it's "ulterior". It might be unstated, but the motive is sexual. And that goes to the core.
> 
> Here's a thought experiement: I'll assume you're hetero. Tell me about your similar "nice guy" issues in relating to members of your own gender. Equally frustrating? Why or why not?


This one's easy. This guy at work was an absolute terror to all of the nice guys there. He was bully, straight up, and he went after the nice guys who certainly didn't deserve it. Some of these guys could have asserted themselves and stood up to him, but he outranked them and it would have been unprofessional. When I noticed this I was sufficiently "frustrated" and solved the problem immediately. As far as I could tell, sex didn't have anything to do with it.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

marked174 said:


> This one's easy. This guy at work was an absolute terror to all of the nice guys there. He was bully, straight up, and he went after the nice guys who certainly didn't deserve it. Some of these guys could have asserted themselves and stood up to him, but he outranked them and it would have been unprofessional. When I noticed this I was sufficiently "frustrated" and solved the problem immediately. As far as I could tell, sex didn't have anything to do with it.


You've reversed this. The question is did the "nice guys" feel the same frustration in their role with their tyrant manager as they might have with an uninterested female? Or did they just feel generally irritated and antagonized? I will admit that not every asshole has a sexual motive at heart, but when I hear "nice guys" whining about not being taken seriously in their relationships with women . . . .


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

SlowPoke68 said:


> You've reversed this. The question is did the "nice guys" feel the same frustration in their role with their tyrant manager as they might have with an uninterested female? Or did they just feel generally irritated and antagonized? I will admit that not every asshole has a sexual motive at heart, but when I hear "nice guys" whining about not being taken seriously in their relationships with women . . . .


Who is whining about women? Why is everyone leaping to that? Go back and read this entire thread. Not once did we have a "nice guy" whine about not getting laid. We have had many people pull their pants down and unload on these people called "nice guys", but no one is pining about their relationships.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

marked174 said:


> I completely agree with this post, it was excellently put.roud:
> 
> While I do agree that someone who lets himself be used as a doormat should not be surprised when it happens, I think that our culture thoroughly enjoys blaming the victim in this instance (which is ironic in a world where victims hold no responsibility to their unfortunate circumstances). People have tried to be a doormat to me, and the deciding factor to whether or not I walked over them was not on them. *In the end, if I decide to walk over someone it is because I made the choice to be an inconsiderate asshole simply because the opportunity was present. *I don't have to walk over them, it is my choice This bolded point is almost entirely missed. It blows me away how many people justify taking advantage of someone who clearly has self-esteem issues and then mock them when they speak up. This is a problem to be fixed, and people should make it their aim to help others through support and truth (like the one who made this quoted post).


I guess I see it one of two ways.... Yes, someone chooses to treat another person like crap (or to just string them along because the first doesn't know how to nicely tell them they're not interested). However, I think in some cases, the motivation to be with someone is not based on their personality.... 

>.> I don't consider a guy "nice" if he pursues a cruel girl solely because of her looks. If he doesn't make an effort to get to know her before placing himself in the position of a doormat, I might not say that it's completely his fault, but he's not so much a victim as a fool. And I wonder at his motives if he doesn't consider the girl's personality at all prior to pursuit.


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## ohtochooseaname (May 17, 2012)

IMO, there is such a thing as an actual "nice guy", who does not have a sense of entitlement, but realizes that his niceness does not engender women to generally see him as a romantic option. This type of nice guy does actually finish last because he refuses to assert himself, not because of a fear of rejection, but because of the possible discomfort or detriment to the person to whom he would be asserting himself. This means, in terms of achieving what he wants, he is much less likely to do so, being unwilling to break some eggs.

This "nice guy" is unwilling to try to be flirty with a girl he's into because that says "I want your body" instead of "I respect you and care deeply about you". He is unwilling to "make a move" or otherwise resolve whether or not she is willing to date him because that would force her to reject him, if that be the case, and that would be painful for her to do, and would make the relationship awkward. So, he tries testing the waters to see if she's into him...this inevitably comes up ambiguous. This story almost never works out very well.

What this type of guy actually wants is an assertive woman, so he knows that it isn't being rude to show interest/affection. By "assertive woman", I really mean just one who is at least willing to respond to obvious interest with obvious interest, or with an obvious, "not interested". This guy doesn't want a traditional gender role, and probably wants a relationship with no dominant partner. The other solution, is, of course, online dating website or other means where the purpose of the interaction is established ahead of time. This gets around the "assertiveness is rude" problem.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

ohtochooseaname said:


> *This "nice guy" is unwilling to try to be flirty with a girl he's into because that says "I want your body" instead of "I respect you and care deeply about you". He is unwilling to "make a move" or otherwise resolve whether or not she is willing to date him because that would force her to reject him, if that be the case, and that would be painful for her to do, and would make the relationship awkward. So, he tries testing the waters to see if she's into him...this inevitably comes up ambiguous. This story almost never works out very well.*


That is the epicenter of the problem. How can you care deeply about someone without knowing them. Saying something like that about someone you have no relationship with and are familiar with them only from a distance simply stinks of self-interest.Then the approach of being coy and thinking she'll interpret friendship as sexual interest, then feeling resentment because it wasn't interpreted in the way he wanted makes his true intentions come out. If you want to pursue someone sexually or romantically, don't pretend to be her buddy, then feel hurt when she thinks you're her buddy.


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## ohtochooseaname (May 17, 2012)

android654 said:


> That is the epicenter of the problem. How can you care deeply about someone without knowing them. Saying something like that about someone you have no relationship with and are familiar with them only from a distance simply stinks of self-interest.Then the approach of being coy and thinking she'll interpret friendship as sexual interest, then feeling resentment because it wasn't interpreted in the way he wanted makes his true intentions come out. If you want to pursue someone sexually or romantically, don't pretend to be her buddy, then feel hurt when she thinks you're her buddy.


The "nice guy" in this situation has no real means of approach. This is why a a means of establishing interest up front is necessary or a woman, who is assertive.

The infatuation situation after a relationship has actually been established makes for not actually knowing the person, whether that was the intent or not. This sort of unrequited love situation is actually a sign that the "nice guy" really isn't ready for a relationship: anyone who thinks they need a relationship to be happy will never find happiness in a long term relationship until that is resolved. The person just becomes an object even though the "nice guy" would be horrified to know they did that.

I agree that feeling resentment or anger about a rejection would indicate that the "nice guy" really wasn't.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

android654 said:


> That is the epicenter of the problem. How can you care deeply about someone without knowing them. Saying something like that about someone you have no relationship with and are familiar with them *only from a distance simply stinks of self-interest.*


Not really. There are people who are attracted to women they meet and want to find out more about them as a person _all the time_. Not all guys simply look at a woman and see sexual potential. Sometimes they think wow this woman has opinions, thoughts and ideas that I find to be fascinating, let me talk some more to her. It's sad that a man cannot approach a woman genuinely without the thought of it having to lead to a sexual encounter. I find this ideology to be so incredibly jaded. No, just because I want to talk with you doesn't mean I am planning to get you upstairs and on my bed to sleep with you. Sometimes I just want to have a conversation that is deep and has merit. People are always going to be attracted to looks at least in terms of first appearance and initial judgments. But that is not all there is, it's kind of insulting that people think that way about an entire gender. I have definitely talked to women who I was not initially interested in off bat and wound up being attracted to them because they challenged me on an intellectual level and made me think about things in different ways. It made me want to interact more with them and find out more about them. 

Attraction can happen at any time and any moment. Not just instantly off of first impressions. Sometimes it grows into something more and the friendship builds to something that could be more important and deeper then just a simple sexual attraction or one off screw. 



> If you want to pursue someone sexually or romantically, don't pretend to be her buddy, then feel hurt when she thinks you're her buddy.


The situation isn't that black and white. Sometimes sexual interest is not paramount to the individual until later on in the relationship, and that's when the "buddy problem", causes issues. That said this isn't just a male problem. Unrequited love happens to all individuals and it's equally painful for all parties. Men may seem to complain about it more online probably because they don't have anywhere to express their frustration in terms of friendship, where as women are more likely to be sympathetic to these issues in regards to other women and give them a true emotional outlet to express their problems and pain.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

ohtochooseaname said:


> IMO, there is such a thing as an actual "nice guy", who does not have a sense of entitlement, but realizes that his niceness does not engender women to generally see him as a romantic option. This type of nice guy does actually finish last because he refuses to assert himself, not because of a fear of rejection, but because of the possible discomfort or detriment to the person to whom he would be asserting himself. This means, in terms of achieving what he wants, he is much less likely to do so, being unwilling to break some eggs.
> 
> This "nice guy" is unwilling to try to be flirty with a girl he's into because that says "I want your body" instead of "I respect you and care deeply about you". He is unwilling to "make a move" or otherwise resolve whether or not she is willing to date him because that would force her to reject him, if that be the case, and that would be painful for her to do, and would make the relationship awkward. So, he tries testing the waters to see if she's into him...this inevitably comes up ambiguous. This story almost never works out very well.
> 
> What this type of guy actually wants is an assertive woman, so he knows that it isn't being rude to show interest/affection. By "assertive woman", I really mean just one who is at least willing to respond to obvious interest with obvious interest, or with an obvious, "not interested". This guy doesn't want a traditional gender role, and probably wants a relationship with no dominant partner. The other solution, is, of course, online dating website or other means where the purpose of the interaction is established ahead of time. This gets around the "assertiveness is rude" problem.


I am lazy and I did not read all of post conversations, so I'm sorry if this out of context and I misunderstood it.

I will admit that nice people are sensitive to "bothering" other people ... Of course, sometimes that is a confidence issue too because they may think they are so uninteresting that people don't want them and are bothered by them, but not always.

As far as testing the waters, isn't that flirting ... and flirting has nothing to do with being nice ... Flirting can be just for fun too. It does not always mean "I want your body". I am attracted to women (and I am a male) and I flirt with straight guys all the time (well, not as much anymore :'( ). It is just fun and silly. I usually will flirt without the sexual intent (my usually intent is just to be silly and have fun) to get to know the person ... sometimes I flirt to test the waters ... I'm also a lot more confident when I flirt lol (I might release some sexual energy, but that does not mean I even want to have sex ... if that makes sense).


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Arrow said:


> Not really. There are people who are attracted to women they meet and want to find out more about them as a person _all the time_. Not all guys simply look at a woman and see sexual potential. Sometimes they think wow this woman has opinions, thoughts and ideas that I find to be fascinating, let me talk some more to her. It's sad that a man cannot approach a woman genuinely without the thought of it having to lead to a sexual encounter. I find this ideology to be so incredibly jaded. No, just because I want to talk with you doesn't mean I am planning to get you upstairs and on my bed to sleep with you. Sometimes I just want to have a conversation that is deep and has merit. People are always going to be attracted to looks at least in terms of first appearance and initial judgments. But that is not all there is, it's kind of insulting that people think that way about an entire gender. I have definitely talked to women who I was not initially interested in off bat and wound up being attracted to them because they challenged me on an intellectual level and made me think about things in different ways. It made me want to interact more with them and find out more about them.
> 
> Attraction can happen at any time and any moment. Not just instantly off of first impressions. Sometimes it grows into something more and the friendship builds to something that could be more important and deeper then just a simple sexual attraction or one off screw.
> 
> ...


Sure,it can grow at a later time, but it can grow on one person and it can be unappreciated from the other person. People's past experiences color their current reactions, so being friends one day and expecting her to be as infatuated the next is ridiculous. Also, claiming love before being involved with the person is simply wishful thinking manifesting itself in that person. You can't love or care for someone without getting to know them and I'd wager that among the people you "know" you actually know a lot less than you think.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)




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## lastman (Apr 25, 2012)

Mutatio NOmenis said:


>


Ya done there, champ? I love how people call threads "troll threads" but yet feel the need to respond nonsense in them. Don't like what you read? Then don't read it. Problem solved. Walk on.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

@lastman

These things always turn into flamewars. That's why I suspected you of trolling.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> I'm sure there's some bizarrely formed Venn diagram for this crap.


This.

I know it's from the first page, but this. 

Koalaroo, could I please use this quote wherever and whenever I like? I am even tempted to put it in my signature.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

saintless said:


> This.
> 
> I know it's from the first page, but this.
> 
> Koalaroo, could I please use this quote wherever and whenever I like? I am even tempted to put it in my signature.


If you want. I'm a firm believer in the utility of the Venn diagram.


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## lastman (Apr 25, 2012)

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> @_lastman_
> 
> These things always turn into flamewars. That's why I suspected you of trolling.


That was the least of my intent. I was curious about this, that is why I asked the question. Not to start a flame war. 

Thank you for pointing out your reasoning. I apologize for coming off blunt on my previous post.


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## PlacentaCake (Jun 14, 2012)

@lastman 

You're a meme guy! Not a nice guy!


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

I wonder why people don't try to put a positive spin on the whole "nice guys finish last" phase

... such as "Ladies, nice guys take longer to finish :wink:"

Sometimes I think people just look at thinks too negatively :tongue:

That being said, assertively nice guys finish first 










And being nice and making others happy is it it's own reward ... Not all rewards need to be tangible


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

lastman said:


> That was the least of my intent. I was curious about this, that is why I asked the question. Not to start a flame war.
> 
> Thank you for pointing out your reasoning. I apologize for coming off blunt on my previous post.


No, it's my bad. I shouldn't go and make assumptions about people on a hair trigger.

When you've been around here for years on end, you start to notice things. Thread subjects go in and out of fashion. Certain posters get known for different styles. And being a new member and creating threads about inflammatory subjects often identifies a troll. It's been a while since the last one, thankfully.


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## TrailMix (Apr 27, 2011)

My boyfriend is the stereotypical "nice guy". He had lots of girl-friends but not a girlfriend for over a year. He isn't the most attractive thing around, but he is one of the biggest sweethearts I know. 

What made him different from other "nice guys" though, was the fact that he actually put himself out there to pursue me instead of sitting back and trying to force the girl into making the first move. Because that is what "nice guys" do. They try to force the girl into making the first move, but what they fail to realize is that _typically_, girls are used to guys who are obvious about what they want from the girl. Nice guys are harder to read, and therefore the girl is less inclined to make advances upon the guy. To a girl, that says that a guy isn't sure about what he wants, and isn't confident enough in himself to go get it. It goes the same way with girls, but, as a bit of a romantic and a little on the traditional side, I would prefer a man to pursue and court me and I KNOW that a lot of other women feel the same way (Even if they wanna get all feminist and female-power about it, they still like being pursued).

Another common complaint that nice guys throw around is being "friend-zoned". This, in all reality, is 100% true. If you think you have been friend-zoned, then you have most definitely been friend-zoned. BUT! This isn't that hard to get out of either. In order to make yourself dating material, you have to be confident and go after what you want. Also, learn to read body language! She could be sending out LITERALLY ALL THE SIGNALS IN THE BOOK and a nice, friend-zoned guy just sits there and drools, wondering who is going to ask her to homecoming and moping about not being able to ask her when he TOTALLY CAN!

Nice guys are afraid of taking chances because they dont want their feelings hurt, and that is why they stay single. Hell, thats why I was single for so long! I had zero confidence in the romantic region of my life, so I refused to participate altogether, while I moped around, wondering why nobody liked me. Everyone liked me as a friend, but I wasn't date-able because I didnt make myself date-able. I'm not saying you have to be someone you're not, I'm saying that you have to like who you are before someone else can like who you are. Make yourself approachable! Take pride in who you are and walk with confidence, and sooner or later, things will naturally fall into place. The less you worry about things, the sooner things will start to go well.


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## kudi (Sep 27, 2011)

> Nice guys don't finish last. In my humble opinion, those who subscribe to that motto hardly ever take enough risks to begin with to get what they want. Kind of like bitching about not placing in a race without entering it in the first place.


What you mean I didn't win the race?! :tongue:

@*Navi*

Mercy! Don't share anymore of those awful youtube clips. I understand it, but its still to much.


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## Serak (Jul 26, 2012)

I speak as someone who used to be both a positive and negative nice guy.

It's the anxiety that keeps most generally pleasant guys down. They're too afraid to go out there and roll with the punches. They second-guess and doubt themselves, think they need to be some sort of person that they aren't. This builds up and they just never go out there and take a chance. Hopefully some of these guys will wake up some day and be like "Wutno."

An actual nice guy is what I like to call myself when I'm feeling chipper. Pleasant, kind, and not reserved about it. If I do something nice for someone I expect them to see that as it is: An attempt at being kind. If they see it as pathetic or needy then they're clearly not for me and I don't worry about it. Same thing with romantic interests. I'll act how I always act around people. Friendly, silly, and easily approachable. Able to sit down and discuss the impact of Extraverted Feeling and it's relationship emotionally volatile people (including if such a relationship exists) just as easily as making meme references for the laughs. I guess in a way you can attribute to social confidence to a level of detachment, a lack of investment. In other words: Don't care. Not easy to achieve (doubly so to achieve without turning into an ass) but you quickly realize just how many people are out there and missing one you want sucks but isn't the end of the world. They likely weren't for you anyway.

A personal example?
Less than twenty-four hours after asking my girl out I find myself in a situation where she has just gone to bed. I'm sitting there listening to something fittingly sappy for occasion (Vanilla Twilight, for those curious) and the muse descends from the stars. So I write her a poem and copy it over to text. Just as I'm about to send it I stop. "Oh god we haven't even been a couple for a day! What are you doing you bastard?!" So I stopped to think. I realized two things.

One: She was going to love it.
Two: If she got upset or put off by something so innocent and sweet then I may need to reevaluate how well I think this is going to work out.

So I sent it and went to bed.
Woke up the next morning to a joyful response. Even told her of my hesitation and she found it adorable, assuring me she could never find it in herself to reject such a sweet gesture.

At that moment I realized just how amazing this relationship was going to be, marked by smooth and patient communication about things like this.
To think: Had I not sent that message I would have missed out on so much.

So I think it is less about "nice guy" and "bad boy".
I think it's more about who can and cannot overcome their anxieties.

Fear exists to be conquered. It is also the most difficult battle any of us face.
Is it not natural for most everyone to find people who can do so to be attractive at some level?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> If you want. I'm a firm believer in the utility of the Venn diagram.


 Yeah, so what's on your "venn diagram"?

Nice guy, bad guy...


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## Jwing24 (Aug 2, 2010)

O M G


Another nice guy thread.


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## Jwing24 (Aug 2, 2010)

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> No, it's my bad. I shouldn't go and make assumptions about people on a hair trigger.
> 
> When you've been around here for years on end, you start to notice things. Thread subjects go in and out of fashion. Certain posters get known for different styles. And being a new members and creating threads about inflammatory subjects often identifies a troll. It's been a while since the last one, thankfully.


That's true, there are definitely posters who I remember have made good or great posts in the past and when I see their name come up in a thread I am curious what they will say.


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## Enkidu (Apr 19, 2010)

lastman said:


> Nice guys really do finish last, don't they? Or can't even get started.
> 
> Just wondering what everyone take on this was?


Your avatar reminded me of a meme that I'm sure you're familiar with.








I'm not sure if I can add much at this point, but I have concluded that once a man applies the "Nice Guy" term to himself, he is neither _man_ nor _nice_. It's just conceit or self-pity, or a combination of both.


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## lastman (Apr 25, 2012)

Hows about we drop the whole "troll thread thing, M'kay?" I asked a question, I am not in control of how people reply to this thread. It seems to me that some posters are intent on turning this into a troll thread with baited comments. If people cannot take a thread seriously, then they should not be posting in it. 

If you really feel this is a "Troll thread" then there are a few things you can do"

1) Don't read it. Seems a few of you may have assigned me to a "troll poster" So my name should be easy to find.
2) I am sure there is a "Ignore" button, so, feel free to add me to your ignore list. It will not bother me none..
3) Let the mods actually worry about if I am trolling or not.
4) If you feel this is a "troll thread" then simply stating that fact, is trolling in itself because it does not pertain to the question at hand asked in the original post. A troll reply is nothing more then irrelevant posting for the sake of doing so, further watering down a thread containing a (to me) serious question.
5) If you can't add anything significant to the thread other then to try to call others out, then don't post
6) You could always report my topic and let the mods deal with it.
7) Better yet, I think I will ask a mod to lock this thread since its derailed anyway to a "am I trolling topic"

So, yeah, I apologize for making this post, thinking a serious conversation and debate could happen about this topic. Seems as if some people don't want to have a discussion. 

Those of you who actually answered the question, thank you for responses. Many where helpful. Those who think I am trolling, well, I am sorry you feel this way.

:happy:


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## Siggy (May 25, 2009)

thread closed; OPs request


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