# Is enneagram fake like astrology ??



## Heera (Jan 8, 2018)

Title says it all. I felt like enneagram is fake. It divides personalities into 9 types and I feel people correlate to all 9 types.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Astrology is fake? :shocked:


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## Heera (Jan 8, 2018)

It has been proved


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Fake-ish imo in a way but the big difference is that astrology is trying to pin personality and other things to random, unconnected natural phenomena where Enneagram is more of a description of human nature. 

So it's not like 'all people with long curly hair are 2s' and long curly-haired 6s are ignored or stretch their behaviour to fit into 2, it's about if you think the theory's right.


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## firegrace (Sep 7, 2014)

Yes the enneagram is fake but that doesn't mean it's not useful.

It's about archetypal behavior. Everyone is really a special, unique snowflake and no one is 100% one type or exactly like the descriptions.

The descriptions are especially imperfect. 

This all compounds with the fact that there is no real authority on the enneagram, no real undisputed guidance.

Some teach about the wings, some teach about tritypes, some teach about subtypes. It takes a lot of searching and seeking to get any real value from it.

And it turns out that the real value is transcendence. Once one awakens, the type and habitual limiting behaviors are mostly irrelevant. 

Healthy personalities are balanced and people's uniqueness shines rather than their archetypal behavior.

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## Heera (Jan 8, 2018)

Interesting !! What type of hairstyle do other types have ??


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Heera said:


> Title says it all. I felt like enneagram is fake. *It divides personalities into 9 types* and I feel people correlate to all 9 types.


The Enneagram types are not really about personality itself but something underneath personality that is *a major influence upon personality*. Many people new to it make the mistake of only looking at personality when using it, but personality only hints at what's really going on internally. You have all nine types available to you but one is much more dominant and overrides the others. If you just look at personality characteristics then people will have characteristics from multiple types but if you dig deeper to see *why *they're acting that way then you start touching on Enneagram type (people may act in a similar way for very different reasons).


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## Krayfish (Nov 3, 2015)

Heera said:


> Title says it all. I felt like enneagram is fake. It divides personalities into 9 types and I feel people correlate to all 9 types.


Not fake like astrology so much, just fake in the way of most other personality theorems. The thing that differentiates the theories from astrology is that I'm pretty sure there is empirical evidence to support some of their claims to a degree, though like many models it describes a pattern that can be identified within a sphere of study, but isn't exactly "real." It is important to note that enneagram is more philosophical in nature than empirical as far as I've read.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Heera said:


> Interesting !! What type of hairstyle do other types have ??


Type 1 - thin blonde hair (usually buzzcuts or shoulder-length)
Type 2 - long curly hair
Type 3 - afros (for men), mousy brown hair (women)
Type 4 - mohawks and rat-tails
Type 5 - basic 'Andy Griffith' style (men and women)
Type 6 - usually very layered cuts and ombre
Type 7 - really depends on the individual 
Type 8 - braids, usually blond(e)
Type 9: Jennifer Aniston hair


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

Well how do you feel about MBTI then? It doesn't divide them into 9 types, it divides them to 18 types. At least get the numbering right.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

It is about as fake as Freud.
But not as fake as astrology.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

It's a map, but don't mistake the map for reality.


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## The Dude (May 20, 2010)

The enneagram focuses on the existential self (fear and desires) and is utilized for self-development...astrology predictions what will happen based on a bunch of star signs lol...they really aren't even comparable.


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

bundleofraindrops said:


> Well how do you feel about MBTI then? It doesn't divide them into 9 types, it divides them to 18 types. At least get the numbering right.


16 types. "at least get the numbering right" ... how ironic.


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

Heera said:


> Title says it all. I felt like enneagram is fake. It divides personalities into 9 types and I feel people correlate to all 9 types.


its real in that it categorizes neurosis. its fairly observable... but not empirically provable ...


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## PiT (May 6, 2017)

nablur said:


> 16 types. "at least get the numbering right" ... how ironic.


Enneagram is 18 types though including wings, so I surmise that is what she means.

As for the topic, in any personality theory everyone can identify at least a little with all of the types. However, there should be one type that you can identify with more than others. I can see elements of 1w9 or 3w4 or 6w5 in my personality, but 5w6 fits me the best of all of them.


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

PiT said:


> Enneagram is 18 types though including wings, so I surmise that is what she means.
> 
> As for the topic, in any personality theory everyone can identify at least a little with all of the types. However, there should be one type that you can identify with more than others. I can see elements of 1w9 or 3w4 or 6w5 in my personality, but 5w6 fits me the best of all of them.


hah. you can surmise whatever you want.. but she specifically compares a 9 typed enneagram with a 16 type MBTI. 

never have i heard enneagram grouped as 18 types... 9 types as core, 27 types as either core + wings or sub types...


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Nissa Nissa said:


> Type 4 - mohawks and rat-tails


:shocked:


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## nep2une (Jun 15, 2017)

Heheheh... Thank you for this topic. It gave me a giggle.

Also, nice profile pic.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

nablur said:


> 16 types. "at least get the numbering right" ... how ironic.


You got it wrong. I meant enneagram.


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> 1. Special pleading and just a big assumption.
> 
> 2. Even if I were to accept this premise (and I don't) it doesn't explain why everybody has to cope the same way like enneagram says they do.
> 
> ...


2. i think of it like an architectural framework. 
3. its observable, usually. 
4. we can, but its difficult. i think becoming aware of your ego fixation is the first step, then allowing yourself to make decisions without the ego involved is the second step
5. i agree counter-type =/= counter-phobic.... but in the case of 6's, as the worrier... they are phobic... the counter-type to this would mean they are counter-phobic. check out this site that breaks down teh instinctual varients and accompanies them with type/counter-type Enneagram Theory: The Cutting Edge of Our Subtype Knowledge According to Claudio Naranjo - The Enneagram in Business


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

BigUD said:


> @Turi
> 
> here mate look under the question the interviewer posted about enneagram being labelled as pseudoscience
> 
> ...


Thanks for that, I also found the article - sounds like although he isn't claiming the Enneagram as scientific, he was (in 2007) at least, convinced it could be proven as scientific by a group of non-bias and independent statisticians and psychometricians.

This was over 10 years ago - anybody know what became of that second round of research?


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## clem (Jun 10, 2017)

I didn’t know that the Enneagram was so old. It must’ve been tested by time.


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## BigUD (Jun 30, 2016)

This was over 10 years ago - anybody know what became of that second round of research?[/QUOTE]
@Turi
@Turi

It still hasn't been validated. They failed the second round or its more likely they never had anyone test the first round either. Numerous researchers have concluded that at best enneagram only provides a heuristic value. Only the proponents have tried to correlate it with the Big 5 with mixed reviews, which itself isn't truly accurate. I just use it to identify my flaws and eliminate them via adapting other personalities to perfect myself. There's a certain component in our brain called neuroplasticity which changes our personality throughout our lives. So our personas itself isn't truly fixed unless we don't want to change it for good or worse. It is at best a very good self awareness tool which is indeed very useful, but scientific no it isn't. I have another evidence.

Read the answer by peter savich on quora on whether enneagram is scientifically valid or not. 

Again i cannot post the link coz i'm still below 15 posts to go.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Daeva said:


> There are *nine* types.
> 
> Everything else is fluff.


Strange.. last time I counted I got about 14k types.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

pwowq said:


> Strange.. last time I counted I got about 14k types.


It's almost as if you have nothing of substance to say.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Daeva said:


> It's almost as if you have nothing of substance to say.


Will a word change do? 9 types and ~14'000 fluffs?

Edit: Got a number wrong, 38'871 fluffs.
9 types, 10 levels, 6 instincts, 2 wings, 6 triads, 6 triad-wings.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

pwowq said:


> Will a word change do? 9 types and ~14'000 fluffs?
> 
> Edit: Got a number wrong, 38'871 fluffs.
> 9 types, 10 levels, 6 instincts, 2 wings, 6 triads, 6 triad-wings.


You forgot the 27 tritypes.

No, the *Ennea*gram has *9 types*. That's it. Everything else can be helpful if one chooses it to be, but none of it is useful without the core type configuration.

Wings ≠ Enneagram
Health levels ≠ Enneagram
Instincts ≠ Enneagram
Tritype ≠ Enneagram

All of those are sub-configurations. Modifiers to the core concept of the Enneagram model.

The Enneagram has 9 types.


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## Nicholasjh1 (Feb 6, 2018)

RGBCMYK said:


> I tested 5w6 for years, now my tests fluctuate which probably has to do with not trying to conform to what raised to be like anymore...I thought finding my type was simple, but now it's like...I can relate to bits and pieces of all of it. Also, it seems like each resource says something a little different, and depending on what site I use, different ones resonate with me the strongest, though almost always 3,4,5,6. So there's a lot of inconsistency, and not only that...I honestly seem to shift back and forth depending on my mood/state of mind, or fit some kind of cross between whatever but deviating in major ways, or relate to two types equally, or whatever...ever since not repressing facets of myself.
> 
> In my opinion, seems like a Barnum Effect, same as Astrology. (Yes, Astrology is GARBAGE.) Once a coworker asked what Astrological Sign I was, I refused to tell her or my birthday, I made her make a judgment about me first. I think I told her that if it's true, she should be able to reverse-type me and figure it out before I tell her. She later said I taught her something because I really surprised her by not fitting the Sun/Moon signs I am ascribed. You know why I didn't? Because it's a bunch of fake garbage. Any time someone wants to know my sign, that's what I tell them now: I don't get into that stuff, and if it's really true then you should be able to peg it without me telling you. Even if it was true though, I still wouldn't get into it.


.... The whole point of using the enneagram is to expand beyond your "base" type... Sounds like you've been trying to do that... I don't see the issue.


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## Nicholasjh1 (Feb 6, 2018)

Another thing is when I first took the enneagram I tested all over the place. 
1. I did a lot of emotional therapy completely outside the enneagram and got much more awake to my actual motivations... In other words, it's hard to test correctly if you are not very self aware. Moreover, testing much later and having done regression therapy on my childhood made it VERY obvious my core motivations and also "original" motivations. This leads to:
2. You're supposed to test as if you were 21. You can't test in "your current state" If I'm a 5w4 falling back to 7 due to pressure, I'm going to get all sorts of wacky answers on the test. if I'm a 5w4 integrating to 8 (or even 9 for the 4 wing) I'm going to get other "off base" answers. And I would even go so far to say it doesn't necessarily help to test when you're 21 because 21 year olds don't necessarily know themselves.
3. The way you process information greatly effects how the "archetype" expresses. as an XNFP I'm not your typical 5, but the motivations are obvious if I actually look at motivation. 

Long story short... If you don't understand your fundamental motivations... because they are covered up by sideways emotions, hidden subconcious agendas, etc... it may be hard to test correctly.


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## BehindSmile (Feb 4, 2009)

Why do people assume astrology is fake? I don't know about anyone else but besides in fluff magazines, etc, but I believe the personality traits of things like the phase of the moon on the day you were born as well as the sign we were born under, mine is pretty accurate. There is so much undiscovered science with the unconscious, personalities, the universe. I personally don't believe in coincidences. I have been with my love 5 years and a book with sources, under my exact birthday for love compatibility it had my love's birthday down to the year of his birth. We have been driven together since 6th grade but always missed each other in relationships and finally at 21 & 23 we started to date again. Anyway, I'm an INFP idealist so.... I don't know!


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## Seymour (Oct 19, 2009)

BehindSmile said:


> Why do people assume astrology is fake? I don't know about anyone else but besides in fluff magazines, etc, but I believe the personality traits of things like the phase of the moon on the day you were born as well as the sign we were born under, mine is pretty accurate. There is so much undiscovered science with the unconscious, personalities, the universe. I personally don't believe in coincidences. I have been with my love 5 years and a book with sources, under my exact birthday for love compatibility it had my love's birthday down to the year of his birth. We have been driven together since 6th grade but always missed each other in relationships and finally at 21 & 23 we started to date again. Anyway, I'm an INFP idealist so.... I don't know!


There are a number of reasons to believe that astrology isn't empirically valid. First, there are many studies (like this one, published in _Nature_) that have found no correlation between the predictions made by astrology and actual personality traits. There is some evidence for seasonal effects (reversed for the Southern Hemisphere) interacting with critical developmental periods having an effect on things like developing allergies and perhaps multiple sclerosis. 

Secondly, there are various issues with the Earth's wobble over time that make the dates assigned to the astrological signs shift over time in way's the aren't usually accounted for.

Finally, there's the problem that of actual causation. The gravity of distant planets is far less than smaller objects nearby... so there would have to be some other causal mechanism to explain why "star signs" have any effect on personality. 

The human mind is great at looking for patterns and seeing them in random data. That's one reason why anecdotes and personal experience alone are insufficient for determining if something is objectively true.


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## BehindSmile (Feb 4, 2009)

I meant personality traits not predictions, anyway this is my own belief and there isn’t enough science yet to prove what I believe in, and I’m not really Into debating my personal beliefs.  

Also I am thinking as the universe as a whole and now Astrology can play a part of us as humans in the universe, but there are way too many factors for it to be depended on only.

The universe is vast. I believe there can be a correlation with astronomy and personality traits. But of course nature nurture experiences and such can change these for individuals but deep down I personally feel it has creditibity to an extent.

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## Seymour (Oct 19, 2009)

BehindSmile said:


> I meant personality traits not predictions, anyway this is my own belief and there isn’t enough science yet to prove what I believe in, and I’m not really Into debating my personal beliefs.
> 
> Also I am thinking as the universe as a whole and now Astrology can play a part of us as humans in the universe, but there are way too many factors for it to be depended on only.
> 
> ...


That study was about astrology's predictions of personality traits, not other kinds of predictions... just to clarify!


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## BehindSmile (Feb 4, 2009)

Seymour said:


> That study was about astrology's predictions of personality traits, not other kinds of predictions... just to clarify!


Thank you but I didn’t need the clarification. 


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, astrology is interesting but I do find the idea that your personality and life is predetermined by something external like that absurd. Enneagram is different, as it doesn't try to do that. It's not about fate or anything like that. It's more like a diagnosis for a disorder in a way. Or you know, the seven deadly sins... You can say sins are fake I guess but it's not quite in the same vein as astrology. Although they both have archetypes going for them, they come from different things.


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## BigUD (Jun 30, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> The Big 5 is fake like astrology, it's faker than fake news and I will debunk it.


DUDE I'D LOVE TO SEE THE SOURCE/LINK BEHIND YOUR CLAIM, YOU'LL BE MY SAVIOUR. I've been researching on Big 5, but haven't found anything yet.


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## BehindSmile (Feb 4, 2009)

Remnants said:


> Well, astrology is interesting but I do find the idea that your personality and life is predetermined by something external like that absurd. Enneagram is different, as it doesn't try to do that. It's not about fate or anything like that. It's more like a diagnosis for a disorder in a way. Or you know, the seven deadly sins... You can say sins are fake I guess but it's not quite in the same vein as astrology. Although they both have archetypes going for them, they come from different things.


I agree, I don't think astrology is predetermined, I feel it can predict personalities and of course nature and nurture and experiences will have an effect. In my experience it has been accurate for me. I guess I am more into lunar astrology which takes your exact birthday and the phase of the moon, as well as your astrological sign into account. It's super interesting to me and so far there hasn't been inaccuracies for me, personally. I believe in God, however I'm not the typical Christian. I believe in forgiveness, compassion, understanding, I believe in practicing that other than worry about "what not to do" and shaming myself. The similarity of every religion if interpreted correctly is peace and understanding, compassion and forgiveness. We can't possibly know the truth, so I stay open minded. My person belief is its possible that God sent Jesus because the 1st testament was being misinterpreted so badly and there was so much extremism. I believe in God as a much higher power that none of us as humans can contemplate. I believe in reincarnation. I believe that as humans being the top of the food chain, this is our last walk on earth. Maybe we keep doing it over and over until our spirit is ready to for heaven. I believe in guardian angels, my friend passed at 29 from breast cancer and I believe she is my guardian angel. 

For a long time i was Agnostic because I couldn't understand how people could be so sure with these set rules. Anyway I know this went a little separate, I just mean, God is so vast that he controls the universe in my opinion. He is the universe and mother nature etc. He created pot and shrooms which have personally saved my life, natural is always better as we know. So it's possible that astrology, astronomy, science and faith can all come together. 

We already know there are parallel universes, black holes, there could be many earths! There could be so much out there so I don't doubt that true lunar birthday astrology can be accurate as a BASE personality. Not including again like I said, experiences, nature/nurture etc.

I apologize for kind of going off base, but that's where I have come to the conclusion, for me. I can't be afraid of death and not seeing my loved ones. I lived 31 years like that and almost died. I need faith to survive, and that's okay. It should be okay. Who cares what I believe as long as it keeps me on a positive track?


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

BigUD said:


> DUDE I'D LOVE TO SEE THE SOURCE/LINK BEHIND YOUR CLAIM, YOU'LL BE MY SAVIOUR. I've been researching on Big 5, but haven't found anything yet.


Sorry to disappoint you but I don't have one. I just think the system is structurally flawed in a few ways. Not entirely, there's accuracy to it but some things just don't belong together. Openness for example measuring willingness to try new things as well as intellectual curiosity is just dumb imo. One is basically measuring ESFP 7 traits, the other is measuring INTP 5 and 4 traits, it's just stupid. People who score higher on openness apparently are more introspective but also more extroverted which is a contradiction. If anything the two should be on a spectrum, not under the same umbrella. Same with the others as well, like extroversion and assertiveness are correlated sure but it doesn't actually have to do with how extroverted you are.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

BehindSmile said:


> Why do people assume astrology is fake?


It might be because the lack of scientific basis ("debunked") and it is made up. Like fairy tales.


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