# Tell me what you know about socionics



## Kaj (Nov 9, 2010)

Hey guys. I came accross socionics the other day. It claims to be a 'step forward' from MBTI.

It claims to be able to describe the likely relationship between any two types, 'intertype theory'. 
I found some of the INTP relations with other types incisive. Particularly, the issues we might have with ENTPs, INFPs, INTJs and ISTPs. But some some of it was puzzling; it recommended ESFPs as our ideal 'dual' partners.

A few people on this forum have trashed socionics, but their criticisms haven't been very detailed. I suspect there's quite a bit of ignorance about it in the Western world. It's a huge subject, respected in Russia and East Europe. Much of the work on it hasn't been translated.

A few people who have taken the test here seem to prefer it. Why?

So, I'm looking for detailed, thoughtful, INTP analysis of socionics, not whimsical impressions. Is it really inferior to MBTI, and why?

Also, insights into the reversal of cognitive functions of INTPs (apparently we have Ne and Ti in this theory).

If there's already been detailed discussion, sorry, please linky :happy:


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

What I know of socionics is not to use Socionics.com website because they have assigned wrong functions to their profiles. If you read through the profile that correponds to Ti-Ne personality you'll see that it is the profile of what is an INTJ in MBTI, a Ni-Te personality. Then if you read the profile of Ni-Te personality it is the profile of MBTI INTP, a Ti-Ne user. They basically switched around profiles for look-alike personality types.

The only website I'd use for socionics info is Wikisocion as they have it configured right. In Wikisocion the four letter code stays same for all extraverts but for introverts you have to invert the last letter because the last letter corresponds to dominant function. Since dominant function of MBTI INTP is Ti, a judging function, in Wikisocion INTP is called INTj or LII - Logical (T) Intuitive (Ne) Introrim (T is introverted so it is Ti). INFJ would be INFp or IEI (intuitive ethical introvert Ni-Fe), while ENFJ would stay ENFj or EIE (ethical intuitive extravert, Fe-Ni) and ENTP would stay ENTp or ILE (intuitive logical extravert, Ne-Ti)

If you scroll all the way to the bottom of the INTP profile you will see the table of relations with other types as well as list of Reinin dichotomies prescribed to the type.

Logical Intuitive Introtim - Wikisocion

Dual partner of INTP is not ESFP but ESFJ. Your dual seeking function is your inferior Fe and thus you'll be somewhat drawn to all types that have it as auxiliary and dominant. Just follow Wikisocion as it makes way more sense while Socionic.com clearly has their profiles mis-aligned.

From what I've inspected of socionics so far it is not inferior or superior to MBTI. It is same thing but you have to use correct references and conversion. Some socionics website have messed up their profiles. This is because socionics has been translated from Russian into English and back in the time when it was developed there was not agreement in Russian socionics community what functions to assign to what profiles. So according to what translation a particular website is using you may have Ti-Ne assigned to what would be INTP profile in MBTI and over other websites you might have Ni-Te assigned. Once you get the conversion right, in way socionics is better than MBTI is that it goes into more detail about intertype relations. MBTI has really been developed as a career search tool, while there is more of an academic/social research imprint on socionics info.


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## Kaj (Nov 9, 2010)

Lol, thanks a lot Vel. So I'm an INTJ in socionics.

I am dating an ESFJ. On the other site it had us as 'conflicting', the worst possible match, but now we're 'dual', the best possible match. Lucky me, I guess!


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Kaj said:


> Lol, thanks a lot Vel. So I'm an INTJ in socionics.
> 
> I am dating an ESFJ. On the other site it had us as 'conflicting', the worst possible match, but now we're 'dual', the best possible match. Lucky me, I guess!


You're welcome. I think that Socionics website confuses a lot of people.

You have to make the last letter non-capital when talking about socionics, i.e. INTj, otherwise it confuses other people whether you are talking about MBTI or socionics. Whenever I visit socionics forum it is very difficult to fish for good information there because third of people use all capital letters so I don't know if they are speaking of MBTI and socionics and understand the differences between the two (when they can INTP do they mean INTp or INTj?), half the people are referencing this Socionics.com website that has profiles incorrect, and only the smaller remaining portion of people there know what they are talking about. This is further complicated by the fact that some people are not sensitive to certain nuances in human relationships, so cannot tell difference between good information and bad information. I know INTPs really suffer in this area. But from what I've observed so far yes, it is the tertiary and inferior function that pull us to other people.

As far as dual relationships go, on average they get better with age and maturity. So they are better in early 30s rather than say late teens. This is because people grow to appreciate their tertiary and inferior functions more as they get older, rather than completely rejecting them. The expressions of these functions become more familiar and begin to have a sort of a soothing psychological effect on us. This doesn't necessarily create a romantic 'spark' but it makes it easier to communicate and in the end it just feels more natural and relaxing being with the other person.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

Socionics describes the functions somewhat differently than MBTI does. Some MBTI INTPs are socionics INTps and others are socionics INTjs and there are a few that are some other soconics type (most commonly ENTp). There isn't a 1 to 1 correspondence with MBTI types and socionics types. 

Wikisocion has a bunch of socionics information. Wikisocion - Socionics Wiki - ????????? ????
There is a section there on functions (also called information elements): Category:IM elements - Wikisocion


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## Kaj (Nov 9, 2010)

vel said:


> What I know of socionics is not to use Socionics.com website because they have assigned wrong functions to their profiles. If you read through the profile that correponds to Ti-Ne personality you'll see that it is the profile of what is an INTJ in MBTI, a Ni-Te personality. Then if you read the profile of Ni-Te personality it is the profile of MBTI INTP, a Ti-Ne user. They basically switched around profiles for look-alike personality types.


Actually : s

I know you don't like the socionics.com website, but there is an explanation there which does go against the 'flipping j / p for introverts' thing you say. 

How to convert MBTI® type to Socionics type

According to this article, its about whether your N / S or your T / F are closer together. Depending on that, you are j / p as an introvert. Maybe this explains some of the discrepancies?

So if this is correct, I think the INTp and INTj of socionics and INTP and INTJ of MBTI have no correlation-- they have made categories, defined by different things, pretty much what DiA said. Gah.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Dementia in Absentia said:


> Socionics describes the functions somewhat differently than MBTI does. Some MBTI INTPs are socionics INTps and others are socionics INTjs and there are a few that are some other soconics type (most commonly ENTp). There isn't a 1 to 1 correspondence with MBTI types and socionics types.
> 
> Wikisocion has a bunch of socionics information. Wikisocion - Socionics Wiki - ????????? ????
> There is a section there on functions (also called information elements): Category:IM elements - Wikisocion


This is a commonly offered explanation, that MBTI and socionics describe functions slightly differently but the descriptions of functions are extremely similar if you read over them yourself. I am not sure how people decide that they use Ni under one system and Ti under the other system. In other words this explanation does not account for how somebody who is Ti-dominant in MBTI can be Ni-dominant in socionics. 

Socionics Ni - It is also called Ni, T, temporal intuition, or white intuition. It is generally associated with the ability to recognize the unfolding of processes over time (how one event leads to another), have visions of the past and future, develop mental imagery, and see intangible hints of relationships between processes or objects. Types that value always like to have in mind a specific plan for how their life will develop in the future. Thus they have little time for the concept of "living for the moment" or "making the best of the present". They generally engage in pure leisure activities only for short periods of time, and even then their leisure activities generally involve a psychologically demanding or competitive aspect.

MBTI Ni - Deep vision and understanding. Can make sense of what others see as paradoxical, capricious and contradictory. Has deepest conceptual understanding. Often peridime shifting moments that float from the subconscious. Will often see at a new level, beyond and above what first appears rational. The sense of the future gives confidence and seems to assist those with Ni keep on track and not get discouraged. They see the light at the end of the tunnel and can then do what it takes to get there. Others with out this vision will get discouraged. Develop and use symbols only known to the user of Ni.

Socionics Ti - It is also called Ti, L, structural logic, or white logic. Ti is generally associated with the ability to recognize logical consistency and correctness, generate and apply classifications and systems, organize systematic and conceptual understanding, see logical connections between things (including logical similarities, differences, and correlations) by means of instinctive feelings of validity, symmetry, and even beauty. It is like common sense, in that it builds on one's expectations of reality, through a somewhat personal, though explicable, understanding of general truths and how they are manifested. Types that value naturally question the consistency of beliefs that are taken for granted in everyday life. They strongly prefer to make decisions based on their own experience and judgement, as opposed to relying on external authorities for knowledge, which they use only as a last resort.

MBTI Ti: Bringing logical order to the mind and ideas. Finding the right words to clearly express an idea perfectly. Ti allows one to ponder and ascertain the essential qualities of something or an idea and noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is. Ti finds categories of classes and sub principles of general principles. Ti feels at home when problem solving, analysis and refining an idea. Ti makes it a compulsion to understand then improve upon an idea or thought. Ti enjoys taking apart things to see how they work, seeing all sides of an issue. Ti enjoys finding the details in ideas or processes and understanding their ramifications in the logical system. Ti loves finding the focus point in a system where the maximum effect can be had with minimum energy. Can easily see logical inconsistencies in models and statements. Enjoy using highly functioning models, that end up being detailed.


So how do people figure that they use Ti under one system and Ni under the other I do not know. From these descriptions I see that socionics description of Ni resembles MBTI Ni and socionics description of Ti closely resembles MBTI Ti.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Kaj said:


> Actually : s
> 
> I know you don't like the socionics.com website, but there is an explanation there which does go against the 'flipping j / p for introverts' thing you say.
> 
> ...


It is just saying same thing that I've said (that converting from MBTI to socionics you have to flip last letter for introverts) only explaining it slightly differently in a way that would make it easier for people to type themselves.

If your N and S are close together it means in that your are IxxP or ExxJ in MBTI. Take a look at functional order of these types:
INTP: Ti-Ne-Si-Fe
INFP: Fi-Ne-Si-Fe
ISFP: Fi-Se-Ni-Te
ISTP: Ti-Se-Ni-Fe
ENFJ: Fe-Ni-Se-Ti
ESTJ: Te-Ni-Se-Fi
ESFJ: Fe-Si-Ne-Ti
ESTJ: Te-Si-Ne-Fi
So as you can see the IxxP and ExxJ personality types have intuition (Ni or Ne) and sensing (Si or Se) placed very closely together. And so in this case they advise you that your last letter is J. Which is same thing that I've said that INTP in MBTI is INTj in socionics, that you need to switch that last letter to J. Same switch last letter switch happens to all introverts. IxxJs because we have thinking and feeling functions closely together switch our last letter to P and you IxxPs because you have intuition and sensing close together switch your last letter to J.


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## Kaj (Nov 9, 2010)

Vel, thanks again, but I'm not sure...

If J/P are simply reversed for introverts in socionics, then why is the INFJ profile so similar to INFj?:
Ethical Intuitive Introtim - Wikisocion (both empaths)

INFP is also similar to INFp (idealistic/dreamer)
Intuitive Ethical Introtim - Wikisocion

ISTJ is also similar to ISTj (inspector)
Logical Sensing Introtim - Wikisocion


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## Kaj (Nov 9, 2010)

This is an interesting socionics profile site. The descriptions seem a bit arcane, but pretty deep at the same time. I wish it was a little more thorough.

http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index.html

The correlation with MBTI: INTP and INTJ does not seem very strong.
I can see why most INTPs would be INTj, and vice versa, but I can see that some INTPs would test INTp and some INTJs INTj under these criteria.

I think socionics must be distinguishing the two types along slightly different lines...

So INTPs, do you identify more with the analyst or the critic?


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Kaj said:


> Vel, thanks again, but I'm not sure...
> 
> If J/P are simply reversed for introverts in socionics, then why is the INFJ profile so similar to INFj?:
> Ethical Intuitive Introtim - Wikisocion (both empaths)
> ...


The INTP and INTJ, INFP and INFJ personalities are called look-alikes. Very different combinations of functions underneath give rise to similar behavior on surface. Profiles sound similar but this similarity is only surface if you know how functions relate to behavior. If you read the profiles very closely and understand the essence of the functions, you can spot these differences. For example for INFj profiles it says "very attuned to the psychological atmosphere of interaction and to their own feelings towards people and things". INFJs however are attuned to psychological state of another person rather than atmosphere and not to own feelings but to feelings of another person, because our feeling is extraverted. We do not judge interaction based on our personal feelings, but we do call judgements based on feelings of other people. We don't track atmosphere as it relates to us but the actual emotional response of the other person. Another example "EIIs are not easily able to abstract themselves from the human dimension and apply "cold" logic" while if you go to INFJ forums we do that there to ourselves all the time, abstract and evaluate ourselves critically and nitpick at our own imperfections. Therefore the INFj profile really describes the MBTI INFP. If you read over the INFp profile in Wikisocion then it more closely correlates to INFJ of the MBTI.

INFp (IEI) in Socionics: http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=INFp
INFJ in MBTI: http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/infj.html & http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html

The foresight or predictive ability mentioned in MBTI INFJ profile is same thing as socionics describes for Ni, time intuition, ability to see patterns and processes unfold over time, primary function of IEI (INFp).


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