# Hook Up Culture



## Elvira (Dec 1, 2011)

So I'm curious (especially from the older members) how sex and dating worked back in _your_ time. Is the notion of taking a girl out to a couple of nice dates before trying anything sexual antiquated? I'm sure there were horny teenagers back then as well, but it seems like we have the tendency to view the past with nostalgia when it comes to dating. Was hooking up 'a thing' back then?

I'm a 21 year old virgin in college and I'm finding it really hard to date. I'm really not into hooking up because having sex or being sexual with someone with whom I have no emotional intimacy has no lure to me.  Maybe it's because I'm an INFJ. I feel like I would have to trust someone and have a lot of emotional intimacy before I let them inside me. (lol). But maybe I just haven't met the right random stranger who turns me on like a light switch :wink:

But it's become increasingly harder to find a guy who wants to get to know me well before doing sexual things. It seems like most guys want to 'hook up' and then see where a relationship goes (which most likely is nowhere!), rather than starting a relationship and _then_ getting sexual. Really, how many guys who hook up are looking for something serious? I feel somewhat judged at college for being a "prude" because I don't want to engage in random sex. I don't judge those who do, but I just know that I wouldn't emotionally be able to handle it, and it probably wouldn't be that pleasurable (for me) due to the lack of intimacy. 

It just seems strange to me that the hook up has been hailed as a hallmark of feminism. While I agree that it's good that we are taking some of the taboo away from sex, I feel like girls who aren't okay with the hookup culture get stigmatized. I mean, I haven't even given a handjob so sex is really big to me, and guys look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them that. (I'm not unattractive). Also, I'm sure there are anecdotes about hook up successes, but all of my friends who have tried it had pretty terrible results. A lot of them ended up feeling used.

I don't really know how to navegate the dating scene, especially since I am a virgin. I tried meeting people on this online dating site, but most people mention sex in our first conversation. One promising guy recently asked me if he wanted to have "fun" with me (aka: sex) and when I told him I was a virgin, he said, "I would like to be your first." And this was a guy who seemed promising and didn't talk about sex right from the start. Grrr. I would like to get to know someone first, but it seems like so many guys just _expect_ sex at least by the third date. Is it too much to ask for you to take me out to coffee and learn about each other before you inquire sticking your dick in me? roud:

Girls (and I guess guys too), are any of you really frustrated with this hook up culture? It seems so difficult to find anyone who wants a relationship anymore. 

[Also, I started ranting a little in this so sorry if it is a bit incoherent!]


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## Pirate (Jan 2, 2013)

I'm a dude, but extremely so. I'm 22 and in roughly the same position, and regarded as extremely strange because apparently its not OK for guys to require an emotional connection and to have established some trust before bedding someone. (seriously, I've had to argue that I'm not gay becaue "straight men arn't like that.") I get friendzoned for apparent lack of interest on my part as well, even if I make a habit of complimenting her appearance. Apparently anything other than highly disrespectful and crude comments means I'm not interested.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Elvira said:


> I'm a 21 year old virgin in college and I'm finding it really hard to date.


 What standards do you apply to men? How selective are you? I don't want to make any assumptions about your character, but let me tell you what I mean by using other women I have known as an example:

1. "I only look for men who are more attractive than I am."
2. These men, by nature of being male, attractive and living in our present society, are used to being able to get laid whenever and with whomever the want.

The top of the pile never has any problems getting laid. So if you are looking for the top of the pile, you are obviously going to run into a lot of people for whom sexual vulgarity is the norm. And they're used to getting what they want, so why wouldn't they try it (if you are attractive which you say you are and I have no reason to disbelieve)? Do you follow? 

_On the other hand_, if you go to the bottom of the pile, people are more likely to be awkward or socially incompetent and not know what to do, be anxious or whatever. It's bad for a relationship, however young, for one part to think "Why is the other with me?"

The answer, I guess, is to look to the middle. We're all better in the middle.



Elvira said:


> Is it too much to ask for you to take me out to coffee and learn about each other before you inquire sticking your dick in me? roud:
> ]


 I don't know where you live but maybe you should move somewhere (after college) where people aren't idiots. I'm not sure how anyone can with a straight face try to get sex after a first date. I don't even _know_ anyone who would even try that.


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## carlaviii (Jul 25, 2012)

Elvira said:


> It just seems strange to me that the hook up has been hailed as a hallmark of feminism. While I agree that it's good that we are taking some of the taboo away from sex, I feel like girls who aren't okay with the hookup culture get stigmatized. I mean, I haven't even given a handjob so sex is really big to me, and guys look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them that. (I'm not unattractive). Also, I'm sure there are anecdotes about hook up successes, but all of my friends who have tried it had pretty terrible results. A lot of them ended up feeling used.


Someone's always getting stigmatized for _something_. It's the nature of human beings -- we're pack animals.

I don't have a lot to add to what you've said. I just wanted to post, as an "older" board member, and reaffirm that you have every right to hold off on sex if you're not comfortable with casual hookups. Your body, your decision. There are guys out there who feel the same, it will just take some time to find them. They're under the same pressures you are, and feeling just as anxious. 

The hookup culture has always existed in college, to some degree, I think. It existed when I was there (in the early 90s) though it was a bit lower-key. I see what you mean about it being a "hallmark" of feminism but I think you could also see the hookup culture as being a bit of an overcorrection -- overcompensating for all the years of straight-laced, behave-yourself, only-sluts-do-that culture. I hope that the right middle ground is found, eventually, so that people who want casual hookups can do so without shame, and those who don't want casual hookups can do so without feeling pressured.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

I wasn't aware that hookup culture was actually a thing. I mean, I know that people have casual sex, but I just thought it was one of those things that hand-wringing little old ladies got their noses out of joint about because they read an exposé by someone like Katie Roiphe who wanted to identify the next new thing that the young people are doing. I guess my slice of the world skews towards socially awkward and "old fashioned" (or maybe we're all uglier than I suspected) because the people I know are either in longterm relationships (having sex whenever they were comfortable), single (and having no sex at all), or still virgins (you would be surprised at how many) and I'm 21 with friends almost exclusively my own age or older. I do have one friend who has a very laidback attitide towards sex, but I think most of the rest of us (and I'm including the men in this) would feel very similar to you, OP. 

So I dunno, my first inclination is to wonder if you might be overestimating the prevalence of "hookup culture", but it's also possible that there are differences between our peer groups. You mentioned that you were attractive and I can see a kind of general logic in what @Diphenhydramine said, so maybe you and your friends are just a lot more attractive than the people in my life. In any event, if you aren't the kind of person who feels like this about sex, you just have to be patient. If having sex before a certain time doesn't feel right to you, hold your ground and wait until you meet someone who is either in the same boat or willing to wait, because that will be the person who is right for you. Anyone who tries to pressure you or doesn't want to wait isn't that person. Best of luck.


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

I say there's nothing wrong with hooking up. There's also nothing wrong with declining to hook up. 

I dispute the characterization that there are no (or even just "few") males in existence that want intimacy and relationship rather than just sex. Also please don't tell me that only females suffer from discrimination in that area. If anyone is counting, your premise is just a tad on the sexist side, and your perceptions are biased by the people you choose to try to pursue romantically. Perhaps you just follow shitty guys around? A possibility.


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## RetroVortex (Aug 14, 2012)

You know I think one of my favourite uni experiences was just talking to this sweet lovely Swedish exchange student.
Before and after our group project we used to just talk to each other about our lives and our interests.
I felt so warm and welcome by her, that she could just sit there and listen to me talk with such interest. 
I didn't even care if it was only her trying to learn more about my culture/ background, I just loved having a private audience to tell my stories to.
i never worked up the courage to share my true feeling with her, (she was just too perfect. My nerves and self-doubt held me back at every opportunity. It was such a ridiculous notion anyway. But I just wanted to spend more time with her I guess), and she went back to Sweden.
Needless to say I still think about her from time to time, and I remember for about a whole month I as totally depressed over it all.
So my point? Not all guys are just looking to get laid, some just want a connection.
(unsurprisingly at 22 I'm still a Virgin... -_-)


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## Elvira (Dec 1, 2011)

I didn't mean to come as sexist. I know guys have their own problems too, because being a virgin is pretty stigmatized among most young guys. I know several Latino guys who said that they lost their virginity at 19 or 20 with someone they didn't care about just to get it over with. And I know men who want to cuddle but the woman just wants casual sex with no feelings. So I undestand that both sexes have problems. It's so hard to find guys who are not into hook ups, not because they don't exist, but because they think that if they don't constantly get pussy then they aren't a 'real' man. 

Maybe I have been trying to go after guys who are too attractive. It seems like most of the attractive guys who are shy don't want anything to do with a relationship. Maybe I've been getting so many sexual advances because a lot of the guys I talk to are on a (free) dating site. 

I have been so puzzled because I came from a rural area where people dated and had sex, but there was still casual sex in high school (ocassionally). College is so different. My roommate puzzles me so much because she dresses normally and acts normally (even though she is assertive- she just has a strong personality). But then so many of the guys that she has talked to text her pictures of their penis. They ask if she wants to hook up before they ask her to go on a date. Her confidence has kind of tanked because the massive amount of guys just wanting to fuck her is glaring. She wants a relationship and a connection with someone, but oh look, whatshisface sent her another picture of his dick. Fantastic. 

She doesn't seem to put out the "i want this" vibe either.


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## Coldspot (Nov 7, 2011)

Elvira said:


> It seems like most of the attractive guys who are shy don't want anything to do with a relationship.


Don't judge a book by its cover, you might be surprised by what others are like beneath their stoic exterior. 

You sound like a lovely woman, and I support you standing your ground on this issue. There will always be those who prefer sexual experiences early in relationships and those who don't. The trick is finding someone who is on the same wavelength as you.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Elvira said:


> Girls (and I guess guys too), are any of you really frustrated with this hook up culture? It seems so difficult to find anyone who wants a relationship anymore.
> 
> [Also, I started ranting a little in this so sorry if it is a bit incoherent!]


I party a lot (I'm an INFJ who rooms w/ an ESTP 7w8, so it comes with the territory). 

Be honest, most girls who come to these parties only talk to me if they want me to grab them. (xD) 

When I start talking politics/philosophy, or even have the gall to ask them about what kind of passions or loves they have in their life, they usually get bored and move on to another man who is more willing to grab them and tease them about shit. 

Anyhow, if you don't want to find a hook up guy, look for a guy who isn't looking for that. Don't look for gourmet food in the dumpster.


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## kahimonstah (Nov 20, 2012)

this is funny because I am actually in university right now and my roommate is the exact type to wanna "hook up" with practically anything with a vagina. I mean, just last night he had a girl over that genuinely liked him and he just wanted to have sex. she later texted him asking what they were. hd just replied friends with benefits. 
I on the other hand. NEED the emotional and mental stimulation and the knowing that I won't be dropped soon afterwards. 
but the way you are (wanting to wait for that perfect person) is in no way bad at all. It's actually great. I mean, wait for someone who is faithful and doesn't treat a girl like a toy or be quick to act, maybe contract some kind of sti, and then get bailed on. I like the first option. 
Try to look at it in optimiism. you will and deserve to find the right guy. And I'm sure you are a very smart, attractive, young lady so just don't rush it. Time is on your side!  Hopefully I addressed everything and that my input helped a little.


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## La Li Lu Le Lo (Aug 15, 2011)

The "hook-up culture", like abortion, is a supposed freedom that only damages relationships between men and women and particularly affects women. Find a real man to date who is mature and treats sex as the greatest expression of love and commitment. Don't feel as if you're being pressured to lose your virginity before marriage.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

When a guy I am seeing, brings up sex without the chance of us getting to know one another I usually walk away or ignore them. If they keep persisting about the idea, I confront them and say "I'm sorry, but I don't find that behaviour appropriate. If you are after a relationship then you are going the wrong way about it." One guy had the nerve to say it to me on the second day of speaking to them. Let's just say, I didn't speak to him again.

I don't care that at my age I am supposed to be hooking up with some strangers because my friends or peer group is doing so. It's my body, and I decide what I want to do with it. 

I am new to the whole dating thing, and trust me there are plenty of people who think they don't need to make an effort because they are seen as good looking. That really irks me. But I believe there are still genuine guys out there, you've just got to keep on searching (or waiting). And sometimes it just might end up where you find a friend through it all.


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## amorfati (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm also a female INFJ, & I've definitely noticed a pattern throughout our board that we tend to equate sex = love and require an emotional connection first and foremost. 

I was in the same position as you in college. I waited until I found the right person... and they do exist! I am so happy I waited & I only have fond memories of my first. We ended up dating 3 years & they were wonderful. If you feel this way now, you're probably not going to suddenly have a change of heart... so it's totally worth holding out for that person who will love, cherish, and respect you. You are making such a smart, respectable decision to follow your heart and not give into the pressure of what everyone else is doing. 

I don't think it's bad to engage in casual sex, but it's certainly not for me. I have a lot of female friends who are into it, and I find it interesting to observe how they handle it. Most of them make claims that "they are just like guys when it comes to sex", yet they feel genuinely disrespected if the guy never calls again, doesn't snuggle them afterwards, etc. 

I think a great stance to have when dating is no sex until monogamy. Even then, I wouldn't feel pressured to have sex as soon as someone asks you to be official with them. If you feel pressure from someone, run in the other direction!

One last note - I've had pretty positive experiences with men so I'm not jaded, although I am wary of people's intentions. That being said, there are plenty of nice guys out there! Seriously. You need to look in the right places. A free dating site is not the right place, which is why you are getting creepers talking to you. Although it's possible, it's probably not likely that you are going to find this type of guy at a frat party or bar. I met my first love in the hallway of the dorms on campus. You really never know where you can meet people! Also, I've found a lot of nice, honest, great guys at church events. Not everyone who goes to church or is into their faith is "bible-thumping" or waiting until marriage (ie; me).


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## Elaine (Sep 1, 2012)

College is the perfect place to meet lots of people on a continued regular basis, which facilitates developing relationships. It's the perfect place to find someone with similar values (and obviously educational level). Do not waste your years in college on free online dating sites! Save the dating sites for when you are out of college and can't meet as many people on a regular basis anymore. In fact, even after college, it's better to seek out other venues to meet people instead of online dating sites. There are more shallow predators on there; at least the shallow predatory types are the ones doing most of the contacting probably. 

There are guys out there who want and are willing to wait to have sex. The ones who want to have sex with you right away are probably unlikely to be the ones you want in the long run. With knowledge of MBTI, I am sure you can tell certain types are more interested in developing meaningful relationships than other types.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much about it. It just seems like everyone is apart of it. I think its quite the contrary. I think hookup culture is comprised of a handful of people who can handle it and are designed to participate in it and a large portion of people who are deluding themselves into believe they are cut out for it. Its why so many people are so "pro" hooking up and casual sex but then feel shitty, depressed, used afterward.

This is a time, that like all "times", will eventually be replaced with something else. Don't let people convince you that it will go on forever. It won't.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

I have a high sex drive. Sex is fun, and sex is a human necessity for health. (not surviving, but wellness)

I would really like it if I could have sex with people I've been on one or two dates with. Hell, even people I'm interested in but haven't dated yet. Why not explore both avenues - sexual and emotional - simultaneously? Otherwise, you're waiting on one for the other. 

I can see wanting to have an emotional connection with someone right away, BUT I intuitively know if I have any sort of potential with somebody right away. 

The last girl I truly fell for, I discussed sex with her on our... shoot, second? date. Maybe third. We talked about likes, dislikes, comfort, history, and how long we wanted to wait. She said six months, I scoffed and said what I did up there ^^^^. We had sex about a month later, and the relationship was a lot of fun for the six months it lasted. 

I think people used to hook up all the time and consider it "not for discussion in mixed company" and certainly not in explicit terms. I hardly think it's a new thing since 1900.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Elvira said:


> But it's become increasingly harder to find a guy who wants to get to know me well before doing sexual things. It seems like most guys want to 'hook up' and then see where a relationship goes (which most likely is nowhere!), rather than starting a relationship and _then_ getting sexual.




When you say "find", do mean to say that you are the one making the approach?
So if you ask these guys for several "noncontact" dates, they say no?
Do you reject them without ever making your attitude towards sex known?
Do you have male friends/peers? They might know about the kind of guy you're looking for.


Anyway, I've known chaste and beautiful maidens in pursuit of courtly love while at university. They are hard to find now. Their problem (and it might not apply to you) is that men misjudged them by their appearance. They didn't dress like women interested in long term relationships, so men approached them as if they were already comfortable about the short term. They also went after the most attractive guys, who realistically aren't interested in commitment or delaying sexual gratification. Youth is self discovery. They had options and they intended to sample them. It was usually through those guys that I met those girls and listened to their horrible dates. I knew the guys. They were decent people, but they were made sloppy by excess. Some of them will shape up eventually. In fact, one of them was recently cheated on by his fiancé and is surprisingly heartbroken about it. So there was this fragile romantic side to him that I never knew about.

In short, these girls were unrealistic about their competition from other girls and the guys aren't incapable of putting love ahead of lust. Some of them are just products of their current environment.


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## TWN (Feb 16, 2012)

Hmm.

I seem to have the opposite problem.

I cant get a guy to fuck me, no strings attached. 

What's your secret? Since you seem to always run into guys that just want to fuck you?

Lets swap gameplans. I'll teach you how to get a guy to take you out, and get to know you, and you teach me how to create that "desperate pussy" aura that seems to attract men.



In all honesty, I think you're looking at this in the wrong way. Sex, love, and emotions are not connected.

At all.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Dating in the 90s for me as a teenager was a totally different experience as I transitioned into my early 20s. Or perhaps I dated and hung out with certain types of guys and surrounded myself around friends who were similar in our upbringing.

I totally do not understand the mentality of hook-up culture.

How I experienced dating was the guy typically befriends the girl, speaks to her on the phone, hangs out with her a few times, then asks to go on a date, and then maybe by 3rd date gets a kiss. No holding hands. So I don't understand the notion of holding a stranger's hands when I barely know them.

By the time a guy asked me to be his GF is when we finally kissed. Things moved slowly in progression, and dating felt more cordial and respectful. How I like it.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned in that regard but very progressive in my views. I explored how different dating styles are, and I STILL just don't get it.

And, the way people treated one another yesterday is totally different to how they treat one another today.

It's as if technology and a fast-paced life has dehumanized some of the romantic aspects of courtship and how people treat one another in general these days as though they're commodities, easily disposable, _cheap, tasteless _just like cell-phones. Maybe typical behavior I see living where I come from.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm not necessarily against hooking up, just realize that you are not likely to find anyone to be with long term starting off the relationship that way. If the guy (or girl) doesn't have enough respect to wait for you if you want to be waited for, then the relationship will go nowhere. I do think your chances of finding a stable long term relationship declines the more you do this though, people like feeling special and not like you've slept with everyone that has looked at you sideways.


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## mental blockstack (Dec 15, 2011)

Inhibitions decrease, then it becomes a norm. Don't buy it if it's not your thing. Weep for your loved ones who fall into the pit.

I'd be glad if a hypothetical girl I had sex with had some emotional connection with me. I have a hard time developing a deep connection to people. I can maintain a decent connection with a variety of people, and I consider this a skill that I learned.
But personally, I'm not waiting for some idealized special someone, because in my case it's about as rare as Mew.
Some of my basic standards are -attractive (in more than one way) above maybe "7/10"; -not slutty in effect beyond let's say "4/10"; -we connect with each other past "5 out of ????"


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

You know.... I think that part of the reason that people expect to hook up sooner is that they hang out before dating. Call it "pre-dating", call it hanging out, whatever you call it, it serves the same function as a first date.

People no longer seem to go on dates with random strangers they meet anywhere, they pre-screen them and the need for "first dates" and getting to know someone on a date has largerly been replaced by the phenomenon of only dating people you already know. (Personally, I think that's phenomenally boring to date only people you've already met and that this phenomenon is prompted by the increasingly paranoid attitude of people in the "western" countries, though I'm not trying to downplay the dangers or rape or date-rape.)


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## Elvira (Dec 1, 2011)

strawberryLola said:


> Dating in the 90s for me as a teenager was a totally different experience as I transitioned into my early 20s. Or perhaps I dated and hung out with certain types of guys and surrounded myself around friends who were similar in our upbringing.
> 
> I totally do not understand the mentality of hook-up culture.
> 
> ...


That's how I would like it too. I've been wary of even kissing people outside of a relationship; it just doesn't feel right to me. And sorry for not being able to quote people (I still haven't figured out how to quote multiple people!), but to the person who asked me about how to find guys who just want sex: I don't really know :laughing:. Not _all _of them have wanted sex. Really there was just one who pushed my boundaries. But I've heard anecdotes of many other girls my age who want a relationship (and dress for it!) but just get guys who send them pictures of their penises. If you want to get laid, you should probably talk to my friend....

I do think I have kind of an innocent vibe and guys are either really turned off by that or really turned on by it. Like "ooh, lemme take your virginity! Let my penis forever be ingrained in your memory!" I think it's an ego thing that they are the 'only ones' who have touched me in a certain way. 

And I think for some people, sex and love definitely are connected. For some people, they aren't. I'm not sure where I stand on that, but I think I would get emotionally confused after casual sex. Most of the girls who I know that had casual sex got hung up on the guy afterwards.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

Elvira said:


> That's how I would like it too. I've been wary of even kissing people outside of a relationship; it just doesn't feel right to me. And sorry for not being able to quote people (I still haven't figured out how to quote multiple people!), but to the person who asked me about how to find guys who just want sex: I don't really know :laughing:. Not _all _of them have wanted sex. Really there was just one who pushed my boundaries. But I've heard anecdotes of many other girls my age who want a relationship (and dress for it!) but just get guys who send them pictures of their penises. If you want to get laid, you should probably talk to my friend....
> 
> I do think I have kind of an innocent vibe and guys are either really turned off by that or really turned on by it. Like "ooh, lemme take your virginity! Let my penis forever be ingrained in your memory!" I think it's an ego thing that they are the 'only ones' who have touched me in a certain way.
> 
> And I think for some people, sex and love definitely are connected. For some people, they aren't. I'm not sure where I stand on that, but I think I would get emotionally confused after casual sex. Most of the girls who I know that had casual sex got hung up on the guy afterwards.


I personally get attached, that is the way we are supposed to react. Whether you believe we were created or evolved, it only makes sense that you get connected to someone you have sex with as there is a chance you'll need that person to help raise a child. If you aren't sure, I wouldn't do it.


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

I think everyone just needs to be educated on everything, and it should be continually talked about it until people are comfortable with it and can therefore make their own choices and are old enough to understand what's what. Sex surrounds us because it sells anything and everything but the depictions aren't realistic, guys are taught that the act of sex is manly and forms an enormous base for their self-worth and identity, rather than that their relationship with the other is what this should be based upon (ads only have so much time/space). Girls are taught that guys want sex, because they do, and that's how you get them to stick around/it won't have any repercussions. And if seeing sexual images every time you walk outside is not enough to pressure, it's enough to arouse curiosity. I don't really feel that anyone is taught this early enough. I think leaning too far in either direction of "it's okay do whatever you want!" and "wait until it's really meaningful, and you're a worthless human being if you don't" is not at all healthy or helpful. I think it's more of a societal failing than an individual failing. This is what is held up more as an individual achievement, than as something that is about two people, and it's surrounded by feelings of judgment on both ends instead of a general feeling of choice. 

"Don't look for gourmet food in the dumpster." :shocked:


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

TWN said:


> ........Sex, love, and emotions are not connected.
> 
> At all.


For me, they're all extremely intertwined and inseparable so far. For me, sex is much much better when I have a positive emotional bond with the partner. I really don't like sex without love very much. It's very... unstimulating or shallow somehow. Maybe I just get more of a chemical reward from sex and love together.

The only exception to this experience is I didn't develop feelings for the woman I fucked in a group/swap environment. In that case though, it was pretty much strictly sex. We didn't really talk or even have sex facing each other, AND I was in a relationship and my partner was present. I did get somewhat jealous during the interaction though.
Being jealous of and aroused by someone else fucking your partner is a weird, weird feeling.


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## Das Brechen (Nov 26, 2011)

Eh, I do the whole "pre-dating" thing and I didn't know that's what they called it these days. I ask a woman to hang out somewhere public, take a non-threatening(by that I mean not coming off as thirsty) stance towards a possible hook-up, and usually sex will come up in at least the first few conversations. All it takes from there is a little posturing and off we go. If she's trying to pigeonhole me into a possible relationship, I usually don't lead her along. I'm better about that now, thank the Maker. I'm upfront about my intentions before any clothes come off just so she doesn't get bent when I don't call her or text her ever. Does it always go smoothly? Not always. lol

And uh...yeah, I don't do the whole sexting thing at all. That's a good way to go to jail or have something equally uncomfortable happen to you.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

I'm pretty sure I invented that term, but it seems appropriate. (pre-dating that is.)


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## Conclusion (Sep 21, 2012)

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I'm a bit surprised by the opinions expressed by various folks in the thread about men who mention sex early. If that's what they're after, wouldn't you want them to be open about it, and early, rather than hiding it until you've invested emotionally? Does "wanting sex early," and being open about it, make you not just incompatible but also worse people somehow? Why?

I get the feeling that there's something I'm missing here, but I'm not totally sure what. Is it that you have very specific preferences about when to have sex and what it means, but on some level feel like anything other than what your own preferences is somehow "worse" (because on some level you still believe that casual sex is bad?) so you feel you can't start a conversation about what you want without subtly questioning the other person's basic decency (so don't ask and instead just trust they're a "good person" and so want what you want) and then when he eventually mentions it and demonstrates that he wants something else, you feel betrayed because you were trusting in his "decency" which he apparently doesn't have after all -- and perhaps also feel a little trapped by gender roles and so can't assert yourself to say "yeah not what I'm looking for, sorry not compatible, have a nice life?" Or something?

If true, I sympathize, since I feel like cultural attitudes towards sex have more or less painted you into that corner. But can't you get around that by just being open about what you want from the start? If it's just that you're having trouble finding someone compatible in this particular fashion, I guess I also sympathize -- but doesn't everyone have some version of that problem when they're looking for a relationship, "hookup culture" or no?

Basically, I'm wondering if this problem can be addressed by owning your own preferences and your own needs, rather than blaming "hookup culture" and whomever buys into it.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

William I am said:


> I think people used to hook up all the time and consider it "not for discussion in mixed company" and certainly not in explicit terms. I hardly think it's a new thing since 1900.


I think that's the big thing about this whole "hookup culture." Teenage pregnancy rates are way lower than they used to be so people were still doing it back then. It's just people are smarter about it. It's typical human nature to overemphasize the good and forget the bad. This is why the "good ole days" is just a myth. I hear stories from my parents or older people about how many cars were smashed back in the day (usually drunk) doing something stupid. I can only think of a small handful of the people I know that have even smashed their vehicles sober. You hear about all the stuff but back then it was forgotten as time went on. Now we have instant communication that is basically written in stone. I mean if George W. Bush had Facebook when he was in college, you think he'd ever be considered for president if there was a written record of the crazy stuff he did (and not just rumors)?

Back then the stuff happened. It was just kept on the downlow and out of sight and out of mind. Then as time passed, the memories faded or were forgotten.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

I think that relationships, serious or just hook ups, should be natural and not forced. We should choose whatever makes us feel more comfortable instead of following what seems to be the mainstream.

Personally, I waited 'till 20 years old before meeting my husband. I waited despite a few guys wanted to date me in the past, coz they were not what I was looking for, and some of them weren't really serious enough (even if the interest was mutual). But it was well worth the wait, as I only accepted someone who is also serious enough. He was not some Adonis and we are not 100% compatible, but we are both serious and believe in commitment.

It's important to have standards, and we shouldn't lower them unless they are not realistic. If you want someone serious enough then don't try it with someone who is not as serious. If you want someone sensitive and mature enough, then don't date guys that are immature. Often I saw people lowering their standards, and they end up not being happy and hurt.
So analyze your standards, see what is really important for you, and see if you're really realistic. Then stick wtih them, and don't compare yourself with the majority. You are you and what others seek is not necessarily the same as what you seek.


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## paperbrain (Jan 4, 2013)

Firstly you are one hundred and ten percent correct on your perspectives on sex. And thank you for putting up this thread. I hope it enlightens some of your fellow female virgins out there. Let’s get down to business here shall we?

I know exactly how you feel and what it is like to be a virgin in college. And let me tell you this bullshit hook up culture has been going on since the dawn of time. Haven’t people watched “Animal House”? Hell haven’t you watched “Mad Men”? I’ll break “Date Club” down like Chuck Palahniuk:

Rule Number One: MEN ARE TO BE TREATED LIKE SHIT UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE

Don’t get me wrong. There are some very nice guys in this world and I love them with all my heart and they deserve to be treated like princes. But most men are garbage. College is a big fucking garbage dump where a bunch of asshole parents who were assholes when they were in college drop off their asshole sons to get an education so they can make money and further carry on their boring asshole lives. These little pricks are usually called business majors, pre law majors and history majors who are basically pre law. These little shits have been sucking on mommy’s tit and daddy’s dick all their worthless pathetic lives and are spoiled as hell and their stupid fat balding ugly fuck wad daddy who was probably a cock sucking frat boy piece of shit when he was young has revved them up to go to college and harvest all the pussy they can get their hands on and have a good time because the old man is too ugly and Viagra dependant to do it himself anymore. These assholes come in all shapes and sizes as you’ve found out with “Promising Guy”. Oh yeah, they like to seem all nice at first. They seem so fucking sweet. But when you peel back the lamb’s wool and get a good look at the reptile underneath they’re really just some cat tranquilizer packing date rapist out to score. The only thing you did wrong with “Promising Guy” was you didn’t kick his balls back from whence they descended. Or you could have slapped him across the face and given him a nice pattern of welts. Or you could have pulled out your stun gun and stuck it in his throat. Next time you run into an asshole like this tell him you’d rather eat pig vomit than suck on his thimble dick…then Taser his balls.

Rule Number Two: THE HALLMARK OF FEMINISM IS TO BE EQUALLY AS POWERFUL AND RICH AS MEN

Feminism is really about being able to make money on equal par with men and be able to go into the fields of study we damned well want to and get a good paying job. If you watch the documentary “Waiting for Superman” the teacher’s unions started because female teachers had to put up with a lot of bullshit like not being able to continue their career after getting married and not getting decent health benefits. It doesn’t have dick one to do with going out and having some sleaze bag try and talk you into having sex with him. Truth is women own sex. Men are at our mercy. Unless they’re rapists they have no power in the matter. And they know it. The problem is a lot of women don’t. Let’s take you for instance: you are a pretty 21 year old co-ed virgin. You’re the fucking poster child for the American male wet dream. All men want you. Your job is to not give into the bullshit advertisement that you need to date some slicked up alpha male movie starsports hero. You are looking for a nice guy. You are looking for someone to be your friend and eventually your lover. And you should NEVER EVER settle for less. DO NOT give your virginity up to some onenight stand. It is crucial you know that you are in control. CRUCIAL!!!! There are plenty of nice guys out there bu tthey are not the ones who are going to readily approach you. You should take the advice of some of the other posters in this thread and make friends with some nice guys in nice social situations who are looking for a girlfriend, not a hook up because they do exist. Nice guys the only men who really deserve to get laid. If all women would follow this advice we’d breed a better world.

Rule Number Three: PRUDE/CRAZY IS A COMPLIMENT:

Never think that when asshole guys think or call you a prude or crazy or whatever catch phrase they use no matter how nasty they do it or how nasty they treat you they don’t still want you. This is basic sour grapes. Aesop’s fables, baby. They’re going to want to end up with someonelike you anyway. But you’re rare not to mention an INFJ and only found in 1% of the population and they’re some ESTP or ESTJ 13%er crap fest and they know it and they’re end up with some silicon titted mouthy bleached blonde slut sorority girl who will get fatter by the year, sport a giant tattoo of a unicorn on her whore spot and produce mouthy fuck wad kids who will in turn return to college and add to the pile of garbage…just like their mom did. You on the other hand will find a nice guy if you are patient and the two of you will go on and stand a good chance of producing the kid who comes up with the cure for some hideous disease. 

Rule Number Four: DEATHZONE DO NOT FRIENDZONE

I don’t know what it is with women and not dating their male friends. Why would you date a guy who wasn’t your friend? What are yousupposed to date you’re enemy? Firstly with a guy who’s a friend you’ve established a relationship, you’ve gotten to know some of his secrets and sometimes attractions can lay dormant until one day you wake up and realize that nice guy, yeah, you know, the one who treats you well and listens to you and you can tell anything to and you know has a crush on you? Yeah, maybe going on a date with him wouldn’t be a bad thing. So I don’t believe in “friendzoning” a guy and saying oh, he’s just my friend. I can’t date him and come up with a list of bullshit reasons like oh, it’ll hurt our friendship and oh, he’s not boyfriend material and blah, blah, blah. If the guy doesn’t start out your friend he never will be one. Men don’t change. They only meet their potential. On the other hand ALWAYS DEATHZONE ASSHOLES. “Promising Guy” is on your deathzone list. Keep him there. He doesn’t get dick. He can go fuck a toaster in the bathtub for all you care. Any man who tries to get you into bed and you don’t want to fuck him is to be deathzoned. He gets nothing. And by that rational you lose nothing.

Rule Number Five: LOOK FOR POTENTIAL IN MEN NOT FINISHED PRODUCT

Don’t look at some guy in college and say, oh, he doesn’t have money. He doesn’t dress well. Oh, he’s shy. Fuck that bullshit. Sometimes nice guys need help. They need chemistry. They’re a science major or very talented English major or a psychology major or whatever but they need a woman to give them some fucking confidence. They may even be a virgin like you. Never EVER rule out a guy just because he lacks experience in the bedroom. Experience can be learned. And some of these guys just need an opportunity. Assholeishness cannot be overcome. You can teach a guy to give you pleasure. You cannot teach a jerk to change. 

The bottom line: You are in control. Do not give up your virginity to anyone less than a loving boyfriend whom you have feelings for and can trust. You’re instincts are all correct. You’ve waited twenty one years for the right guy don’t screw it up now. You just need to have some patience. Nice guys are out there. I know. I’ve met them.


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## Elvira (Dec 1, 2011)

paperbrain said:


> . If you watch the documentary “Waiting for Superman” the teacher’s unions started because female teachers had to put up with a lot of bullshit like not being able to continue their career after getting married and not getting decent health benefits.


On a side note, I got about 3/4 through that documentary before I got too pissed to finish it :laughing: Unions are evil! Teachers are all terrible! But that is another topic for another day. But on that same note, we still have pretty crappy maternity leave in the U.S. i think as a teacher you get 6 weeks, which seems like an awfully short amount of time. 

Anyway, I realize that some guys have a virgin fetish and it is pretty strange. I don't want to NOT tell someone I am a virgin, but part of me doubts their sincerity if guys are all excited about having sex with a virgin. 

Luckily, I haven't met too many terrible guys at college. Do you think women are like this though too? Maybe people are just shallow in general in college. I don't know. 

On the topic of feminism, it is interesting that you mentioned that a huge focus was economic equality. I feel like some people try to extend this "be just like a man" philosophy into their sex lives even when they aren't comfortable with it. I think some women feel obligated to sleep around, and they feel strange if they aren't comfortable with it. I had an ex-friend who chided me for being so "close-minded' and prude even though I am very liberal in thought!

i think we just have so many negative stereotypes about women and their sexuality. When people hear that I am a virgin, they think if a conservative Christian who promised her virginity on a purity ring. They might think of someone who is inhibited or thinks that sex is "icky". I am the exact opposite of that! 

But I can also see the whole romanticizing the past issue. I have seen Grease and they seemed like pretty horny teenagers! Ad even though pregnancy rates have gone down, do you think it is due to better contraceptives? I feel like sex is much more mainstream and maybe people are having more sex but just protecting themselves better. 

I am glad to see I am not alone


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

paperbrain said:


> Firstly you are one hundred and ten percent correct on your perspectives on sex. And thank you for putting up this thread. I hope it enlightens some of your fellow female virgins out there. Let’s get down to business here shall we?
> 
> I know exactly how you feel and what it is like to be a virgin in college. And let me tell you this bullshit hook up culture has been going on since the dawn of time. Haven’t people watched “Animal House”? Hell haven’t you watched “Mad Men”? I’ll break “Date Club” down like Chuck Palahniuk:
> 
> ...


I wonder how quickly I would get banned if I replaced all this with women instead of men...


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## paperbrain (Jan 4, 2013)

Arbite said:


> I wonder how quickly I would get banned if I replaced all this with women instead of men...



You would be completely and utterly 110% justified in my opinion if you were to replace all this with women. 

There are just as many bitches out there that treat nice guys like crap as there are asshole men who try to get into women’s pants. I wrote it from the female perspective here because this thread comes from a female virgin. But nice guys get treated like shit by woman too and I’m just as much a champion of the nice guys as I am the classy females like the one who started this thread.

I’ve been doing research for a project for a while and I came across this article about girls who make a sport out of seeing how many male virgins they can deflower. They are called v-card collectors. I read that one of the guys who got deflowered by one of these little whores was so devastated by it he self-mutilated himself for a year afterwards. Can you believe this crap? That bitch ruined a nice sweetheart who deserved a hell of a lot better. I hate these kind of women just as much as I hate those kind of men. 

Let’s see if I can rewrite my original post for the guys out there who don’t deserve to be treated like shit by bitchy aggressive women. Give me a day or two.


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## paperbrain (Jan 4, 2013)

I actually am in agreement with you about how the teachers unions turned out. They are a force of evil these days. I more or less wanted to use the reason they got started to show that feminism, at least from where I stand, is more about the right to be equal from a financial and career perspective as opposed to the right to get picked up at a bar scene. If you do get a chance, you should try and finish the documentary. It’s quite an eyeopener. 

To answer your question about are women like this too I would say yes, absolutely. I think of like Lucy and her friends in the Peanuts comics. These girls are nasty enough to Charlie Brown and Linus when they’re kids in grade school. Now imagine these girls grown up and in college, hanging in the sororities,wearing those stupid letters, tattooing them on their skin. I was actually in a sorority briefly. Talk about living in hell. These girls were grade-A bitches. One of them stole a dress from me. A couple others tried to throw a coup and take over the whole house. They always gave me a lot of shit because I wouldn’t eat with them or go on their little road trip. I just wanted to be able to keep my food down. They all try to reshape you into something you’re not. I can’t tell you how glad I was to get out of there and back to the dorms. Oh, well, an experience to draw from if nothing else I guess.

Anyhoo…I’ll just go ahead and repost what I said in the other post I put here that there are these girls out there who make a sport outof deflowering male virgins. Nasty mean whores every one of them. They screw the guy then rip the guy’s insides out when they tell them they’ve been played. And of course these girls aren’t stalking assholes, oh no that’s not who they’re after. They’re out there hurting introverts and guys who have some sensitivity. Like I said,one of them self-mutilated himself for a year. It’s just sick and not in a good way. 

I kind of take it personally when women treat men like shit who are nice guys. There are fewer nice guys than assholes by quite a large margin…you know I should put in right here that when I use the term “Nice Guy” I don’t mean it in a derogatory way at all. I was thinking of that post someone put up why guys are still alone and one of the reasons being because they are a nice guy. That’s just stupid. That’s the only guy I’d want to date. Can’t say I haven’t gone out with some assholes but I sure as hell didn’t fuck them. And I don’t care to date them ever again. Nice guys are simply harder to find because they don’t put themselves out there because they don’t want to get their feelings and their egos stepped all over and I can’t blame them. Sometimes you have to kind of encourage them a little. I was in a thread about male virgins not long ago and for me it was like being in a candy store: which one don’t you take? Those guys all deserve a gorgeous nice girlfriend to go to bed with. 

On feminism, of course you're liberal and open minded. You’re an INFJ. Did you know that it was women like us who started the feminist movements in the first place? It’s the Idealists and the Rationales who started feminism. Susan B. Anthony wasan INTJ like me. We started it not the SP’s or the SJ’s oh, no. They just got on the band wagon after we did all the hard work. It was women like us. You’re ex-friend’s a jerk. They don’t know what they’re talking about. I’m like you. I couldn’t sleep with a guy I didn’t have a serious connection with. I have to take charge of my own body. That and my soul only things I have between myself and death. Between my legs is where I keep the future of my bloodline. The future of my bloodline lies in who I let in there. I’m not going to let some smug asshole get next to that. I’m not going to just hand that out like a flier whether it be for recreation or procreation. And if I remember correctly women have a chemical release in their body when they have sex that draws them closer to the man they mate with. Maybe someone who knows a little more about that chemical than I do can elaborate on that. So there's another thing to deal with.

I agree with you about the female virgin stereo types. Women should embrace sex. Like I said we basically own it. Men don't get laid unless we say yes, so yeah, we own it. There's just a lot of women who allow themselves to get talked into saying yes to men who suck and not in a good way. Sex is great. It’s fascinating in all its aspects. It’s the ultimate recreation. It’s the ultimate expression of love. It’s mesmerizing and multifaceted and should be explored to its fullest potential. But that doesn’t mean it has to be cheap. I was watching this scene from Dexter, a show I decided I wanted to start watching. Anyway I checked out this sex scene that was on the show and I was like WOW! that was so messed up and beautiful and emotional and weirdly real. And I thought despite the fact that this show is about a seriel killer, that moment right there, that scene, that is what sex is about. 

I don’t think people are having more sex than they ever did but I do agree that there is more information out there about the subject than there ever has been before that is more readily available. Think about past war times and all these soldiers who were out to get laid before they went off to serve. A lot of sex went down during those times. And what about the twenties when young people all of a sudden had the privacy of the car? I’d actually read somewhere that couples actually have less sex than they used to in generations past because of television. People live more vicariously through fantasy now because of TV and the internet so they spend their time in front of a screen more than in bed. I also heard somewhere that states that have more porn readily available have lower rape occurances. Interesting, huh? 

Finally, yes, you are definitely not alone. Man, you wouldn’t believe some of the stories just about myself I could tell you. I won’t kid you it’s tough to be a virgin in college. It really is, it's a mine field out there. A lot of guys are just out there to get laid and use women. And it’s been this way for a long time. But the nice guys are out there. They really are. And like I said before, don’t ever settle for anyone less. And take your time. I know that's easier said than done but really, take your time. And really get to know the guy before you decide to go to bed with him. And trust me on this if nothing else, if he’s the right guy he will wait for you to be ready. If he’s the wrong guy he won’t and I’m sorry I can’t make that more clear. Just do yourself a favor and wait for him because you’re going to be a lot happier in the long run. I know a lot of girls who regretted how their first time went down. You seem like a really neat person. Please don’t be one of those girls because once you decide to go through with it you can’t change it.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Elvira said:


> Unions are evil! Teachers are all terrible! But that is another topic for another day.


What in the flying fuck?
Unions are why we have weekends, child labor laws, and ANY ma/pa-ternity leave at all. I'm going to joing the IWW with one of my first paychecks post graduation.
Teachers are great. School administrators are less great, and politicians pushing things like NCLB and standardized testing for funding are terrible. I hope you were joking.

When I worked for Staples (for 5 months), they made us watch anti-union propaganda about how unions "steal your money to rig elections" and a lot of other lies(propaganda) like that. The last condition of employment was signing an agreement to never unionize.....
If they can't scare you off of unions, they'll at least force you to agree not to join or form a union. That's their bottom line - unions make it harder to exploit their workers, so their profit margins are hurt.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

paperbrain said:


> Maybe someone who knows a little more about that chemical than I do can elaborate on that.


Oxytocin? Oxytocin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Elvira (Dec 1, 2011)

William I am said:


> What in the flying fuck?
> Unions are why we have weekends, child labor laws, and ANY ma/pa-ternity leave at all. I'm going to joing the IWW with one of my first paychecks post graduation.
> Teachers are great. School administrators are less great, and politicians pushing things like NCLB and standardized testing for funding are terrible. I hope you were joking.
> 
> ...


Of course I was being satirical  i am actually a to-be teacher. sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet unfortunately... Sorry for the confusion!

i totally agree that testing companies are getting their wallets lined by NCLB and Race to the Top. Obama even supports closing public schools in order to create charter schools, even though they have been proven to be no more successful than public schools. But private companies get money from charter schools so....

union-bashing is just a way to distract from corporate greed. Sorry for your bad experience at Staples.


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## Codger (Aug 7, 2010)

paperbrain said:


> Rule Number One: MEN ARE TO BE TREATED LIKE SHIT UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE


Charming. 

Agree with the rest mind you.


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## Codger (Aug 7, 2010)

paperbrain said:


> I’ve been doing research for a project for a while and I came across this article about girls who make a sport out of seeing how many male virgins they can deflower. They are called v-card collectors


Never heard of that before. According to someone on urbandictionary, having "done" that twice I'm apparently one of them.

Ugh, delightful :/


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

How did sex work back in my time...hmm. Well, 21 years ago, I was 21. As far as I know, sex worked pretty much the same way it works now. Some people hooked up, some people didn't. It's a decision each man and woman has to decide for themselves. As far as I know, the whole "dating scene" consists of putting yourself "out there" and seeing what happens. You just have to let them know up front that if they're looking for sex right away, that's just not going to happen.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

paperbrain said:


> Anyhoo…I’ll just go ahead and repost what I said in the other post I put here that there are these girls out there who make a sport outof deflowering male virgins. Nasty mean whores every one of them. They screw the guy then rip the guy’s insides out when they tell them they’ve been played. And of course these girls aren’t stalking assholes, oh no that’s not who they’re after. They’re out there hurting introverts and guys who have some sensitivity. Like I said,one of them self-mutilated himself for a year. It’s just sick and not in a good way.


I'm slightly confused... because, I always thought a girl that targeted male virgins especially would actually be a good choice for sex/relationships. I mean, surely if they're targeting virgins, they will be understanding about your virginity/shyness? And they will appreciate it, be patient with you, they will value you because you are something rare to them that they want. Is this not how it works, then?


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## paperbrain (Jan 4, 2013)

dizzycactus said:


> I'm slightly confused... because, I always thought a girl that targeted male virgins especially would actually be a good choice for sex/relationships. I mean, surely if they're targeting virgins, they will be understanding about your virginity/shyness? And they will appreciate it, be patient with you, they will value you because you are something rare to them that they want. Is this not how it works, then?


Not this type of girl. V-card collectors are predators. They just want to rack up notches on their bedpost. They don't care about the guy. They care about the "kill". They deflower male virgins for sport. They make it a game amongst themselves as they can often run in packs and have contests amongs themselves to see who can deflower the most virgins. They screw the guy and dump him.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't girls out there along the lines of what you’re thinking. There are. I personally adore male virgins. I'm attracted to men who have little or no sexual experience. Men who have slept with a fair amount of women are a huge turn off to me because they always come with a lot of baggage and are usually but not always extroverted (there are some nasty introverted men out there too) and they drive me up the wall. I just don't want anything to do with them. It doesn't mean I haven't gone out with some of these clowns; both the extroverted kind and the introverted kind but I never fucked a single one of them. They had other women they could go fuck instead.

I think if a girl is lucky enough to come across a male virgin, because they are a rare and wonderful thing, should do exactly what you said, be patient with him, have respect for him adore him and make sex for him when the time comes the greatest possible thing in the world for him and help him set realistic expectations. And also, if it were me, I'd want to do a lot of non-penetrative experimental sexual activities for a while into the relationship before getting to the sex so both of us would get physically comfortable with each other and get to do a lot of exploring. There is nothing sexier in my opinion than a smart sweet guy who likes you and wants to have sex with you. And I would only sleep with a guy who was a virgin in the realm of a relationship situation anyway. It is not interesting to me to deflower a guy and move on. I have never had nor do I have interest in one night stands as a rule.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

paperbrain said:


> Not this type of girl. V-card collectors are predators. They just want to rack up notches on their bedpost. They don't care about the guy. They care about the "kill". They deflower male virgins for sport. They make it a game amongst themselves as they can often run in packs and have contests amongs themselves to see who can deflower the most virgins. They screw the guy and dump him.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean there aren't girls out there along the lines of what you’re thinking. There are. I personally adore male virgins. I'm attracted to men who have little or no sexual experience. Men who have slept with a fair amount of women are a huge turn off to me because they always come with a lot of baggage and are usually but not always extroverted (there are some nasty introverted men out there too) and they drive me up the wall. I just don't want anything to do with them. It doesn't mean I haven't gone out with some of these clowns; both the extroverted kind and the introverted kind but I never fucked a single one of them. They had other women they could go fuck instead.
> 
> I think if a girl is lucky enough to come across a male virgin, because they are a rare and wonderful thing, should do exactly what you said, be patient with him, have respect for him adore him and make sex for him when the time comes the greatest possible thing in the world for him and help him set realistic expectations. And also, if it were me, I'd want to do a lot of non-penetrative experimental sexual activities for a while into the relationship before getting to the sex so both of us would get physically comfortable with each other and get to do a lot of exploring. There is nothing sexier in my opinion than a smart sweet guy who likes you and wants to have sex with you. And I would only sleep with a guy who was a virgin in the realm of a relationship situation anyway. It is not interesting to me to deflower a guy and move on. I have never had nor do I have interest in one night stands as a rule.


But, you are a rare breed. I know a girl like you, and she is the best friend I've ever had. Girls that actually value real intimacy and are capable of what I would think of as real love, are easily as rare as male virgins, and quite precious. At least, as far as I can see.

Although, I also think there are more important things than sex in a relationship. But maybe sex is an expression of those other things, a culmination of them. 
When my friend was going through some tough stuff, the thing I most wanted in the world was to just hold her, and make her feel better. But I couldn't, because we're thousands of miles away... 
That is like a constant ache, at times. Being so far apart from the person you want to be the closest to in the whole world.

edit: although, if you're attracted to men with little experience, does that mean that as the relationship progresses you value him less, because you have given him experience? 
But probably you mean in a more conditional way. Experience with other girls. I guess it's just as special an event as ever, if you're only doing it with the only person you've ever done it with.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

paperbrain said:


> Not this type of girl. V-card collectors are predators. They just want to rack up notches on their bedpost. They don't care about the guy. They care about the "kill". They deflower male virgins for sport. They make it a game amongst themselves as they can often run in packs and have contests amongs themselves to see who can deflower the most virgins. They screw the guy and dump him.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean there aren't girls out there along the lines of what you’re thinking. There are. I personally adore male virgins. I'm attracted to men who have little or no sexual experience. Men who have slept with a fair amount of women are a huge turn off to me because they always come with a lot of baggage and are usually but not always extroverted (there are some nasty introverted men out there too) and they drive me up the wall. I just don't want anything to do with them. It doesn't mean I haven't gone out with some of these clowns; both the extroverted kind and the introverted kind but I never fucked a single one of them. They had other women they could go fuck instead.
> 
> I think if a girl is lucky enough to come across a male virgin, because they are a rare and wonderful thing, should do exactly what you said, be patient with him, have respect for him adore him and make sex for him when the time comes the greatest possible thing in the world for him and help him set realistic expectations. And also, if it were me, I'd want to do a lot of non-penetrative experimental sexual activities for a while into the relationship before getting to the sex so both of us would get physically comfortable with each other and get to do a lot of exploring. There is nothing sexier in my opinion than a smart sweet guy who likes you and wants to have sex with you. And I would only sleep with a guy who was a virgin in the realm of a relationship situation anyway. It is not interesting to me to deflower a guy and move on. I have never had nor do I have interest in one night stands as a rule.


Wanting to fuck virgins is bad, fucking too much makes you a nasty person. Is there a formula that lets you know when to stop?


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## paperbrain (Jan 4, 2013)

dizzycactus said:


> But, you are a rare breed. I know a girl like you, and she is the best friend I've ever had. Girls that actually value real intimacy and are capable of what I would think of as real love, are easily as rare as male virgins, and quite precious. At least, as far as I can see.
> 
> Although, I also think there are more important things than sex in a relationship. But maybe sex is an expression of those other things, a culmination of them.
> When my friend was going through some tough stuff, the thing I most wanted in the world was to just hold her, and make her feel better. But I couldn't, because we're thousands of miles away...
> ...



Oh, no, no, I would not value the guy less if I had given him sexual experience, not at all. If I were to do that it would make me just as bad as one of the predators. I mean, wow that would really make me a bitch. No I would adore him just as much and having sex with him certainly wouldn’t make me end the relationship and say, well I got what I wanted, I’ve popped his cherry, I’m out of here. That’s just twisted. And I’m not unrealistic. Just because I think male virgins are adorable doesn’t mean I would expect any guy to stay a virgin forever. That would be really cruel. Like, yeah, man, I can only adore you if you never ever get to experience sex. That’s pretty messed up. I hope that’s not the message I appeared to be sending. Men can’t stay hermetically sealed forever. A guy giving me his virginity would not make him less attractive to me; it would just endear him to me more. And quite frankly I would think he was more than a little brave because for crying out loud the guy had sex with me of all people.

I just think, for some men, it’s a big deal for them to hand over their virginity to you and I wish more women would see it as a big deal. If I were the one taking the guy’s virginity I would take the experience he was letting me share with him very seriously. And I’d want the way it to go down the way he wanted it to go down and on his time. I'd want him to pick the first position and the place and the day and so on and so forth. And I'd want him to tell me he was a virgin. I wouldn't want to have him come back and tell me after the fact. I wouldn't think less of him, but I'd be a little hurt he didn't think he could tell me.

I just find guys who’ve had no sexual experience or only a few partners are more attractive to me than guys who like to sleep around with a lot of women because I think they tend to have more respect for you and like you said the intimacy and the holding and some of the more simple things are things I like. That’s just my personal preference because, from a selfish point of view, I don’t want to just be another number with some guy telling me, yeah, you’re the twenty seventh chick I’ve banged. Oh, thanks, dude, you know, that makes me feel so fucking special to be number twenty seven. I’m glad to know I mean so little to you, you heartless fuck. And I am finding that a lot of guys with less sexual experience usually have one of the rarer personality types which I’m usually also attracted to in the first place so there’s that. That doesn’t mean that’s always the case but in my personal experience I’ve found it to usually be the situation. Someone else may have a different opinion on that so I'm certainly not setting that in stone.

I know I am not in the majority of women in my thinking about men. I know my thoughts on the matter may sound strange to some. But it’s just the way I’m wired. I personally don’t find men who sleep with a lot of women attractive. And I find that many of them are jerks. Not all mind you, but many. I grew up with a lot of these kinds of guys and I don’t want anything to do with them. A lot of women, well they like bad boys, they put a lot of focus on how charming the guy’s personality is or how dangerous and exciting he seems and they like their men to have a lot of sexual experience to bring into the bedroom and treat them like crap but I just don’t. Those guys have plenty of women who would love to give them a ride. I personally just don’t have any interest in them. I just don’t find them attractive. I’d rather be with a guy that I can explore sexuality with and go on the journey with him. Anyway, those are my opinions on the matter.

I agree with you sex isn’t the only part of a relationship; I would think most people would probably agree with that. There has to be chemistry and friendship and intimacy and understanding and similarities and I think maybe most importantly the ability to work together because inevitably in all relationships things can get dark and ugly and you can’t predict the future. If you can’t work together when the worst happens you’re lost. 
I’m glad you know this girl who’s a good friend of yours. She sounds like a very cool person. I’m sorry there are so many miles between you. You always sound like a doll and you deserve a girl like the one you’re describing. I hope she is everything you say she is. Her knowing you makes her one very, very lucky girl.


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## ken07 (Feb 16, 2013)

This topic is so varied and I cant really put it into words, if I could upload my mind to you, it might seem easier. What I see is that people want certain things, but people are not willing to put in as much time to get them, or they have a certain standard or ideology that becomes very hard to get. Often times it seems that the emotional side of people never gets what it wants, but the sexual side doesnt seem to care and "always" runs in the background. Some people are so superficial that they cant see their match right in front of their face, and some people assume things from reading two pages of someones book. All and all love is like a battlefield, and eventually people get frustrated, they get angry and they start doing things like not caring about their emotional needs and just going after the sexual (i know a friend like that), some become walking wounded, some even change their sexual orientation, some just plain give up. Some things i've said may not be agreed upon, maybe I dont explain it in terms that are able to be understood. Some things I also see is that people also build up barriers, situations where a woman will be picketed for sex by 10 guys then will hold the defensive stance at the guy that wants more than sex. It seems people are just not willing to put forth the effort anymore, it seems like people now believe that the only good thing in the world that can come between two souls is physical pleasure when there are more things that can be enjoyed (which is sad). I would love it if I could find a girl that is affectionate, loving and just a downright playful silly girl that makes me laugh and enjoy every minute of being with her, a girl that I can literally do things with that me and her enjoy doing together. This was my best way to explain this.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

paperbrain said:


> Oh, no, no, I would not value the guy less if I had given him sexual experience, not at all. If I were to do that it would make me just as bad as one of the predators. I mean, wow that would really make me a bitch. No I would adore him just as much and having sex with him certainly wouldn’t make me end the relationship and say, well I got what I wanted, I’ve popped his cherry, I’m out of here. That’s just twisted. And I’m not unrealistic. Just because I think male virgins are adorable doesn’t mean I would expect any guy to stay a virgin forever. That would be really cruel. Like, yeah, man, I can only adore you if you never ever get to experience sex. That’s pretty messed up. I hope that’s not the message I appeared to be sending. Men can’t stay hermetically sealed forever. A guy giving me his virginity would not make him less attractive to me; it would just endear him to me more. And quite frankly I would think he was more than a little brave because for crying out loud the guy had sex with me of all people.
> 
> I just think, for some men, it’s a big deal for them to hand over their virginity to you and I wish more women would see it as a big deal. If I were the one taking the guy’s virginity I would take the experience he was letting me share with him very seriously. And I’d want the way it to go down the way he wanted it to go down and on his time. I'd want him to pick the first position and the place and the day and so on and so forth. And I'd want him to tell me he was a virgin. I wouldn't want to have him come back and tell me after the fact. I wouldn't think less of him, but I'd be a little hurt he didn't think he could tell me.
> 
> ...


Well, I wasn't saying anything about you, it was just a kind of apparent logical paradox of the situation. Ti and all that lol. 
I fully understand what you're saying. I feel the same with girls. Once they've been through a few relationships, if they were to choose me, I'd just feel like the next guy on the conveyor belt. Expendable, replaceable. Although, that could be mitigated somewhat if they were to reassure me that I mean a lot to them.
Well, my friend was already taken when I met her. She said, if she wasn't, things could have been different. Usually, I would just brush that off as condescending, a lie to make me feel better. But, I believe her, because the guy she's with is not only a virgin, but has anxiety issues to the point that he can't even meet her, and she has been willing to try and get through that for months now. If she can see such worth in him, despite such anxiety usually repelling women to such an extent, then maybe she really can also see such worth in me, genuinely. It's sad to me that we can only be friends, because she is such a wonderful rarity, but at the same time, to have her in my life at all gives me more happiness than anything I remember, so it's a kind of bittersweet thing lol. To touch happiness, but be unable to grasp it. And she can't even talk/video chat, for other reasons, at the moment. I've only talked to her twice before. So, text is all I have. 
You may notice, or at least I have noticed in myself, that I come across almost like an NF. Reading back what I say, it's like a weird blend of Ti logic and emotion. I attribute that to her. She is an INFP, and I think having to communicate and wanting to understand her has lead to a rapid Fe development. 

But, you said " And quite frankly I would think he was more than a little brave because for crying out loud the guy had sex with me of all people."
That suggests to me almost as if you have a low opinion of yourself, possibly of your appearance. Is there something to that? Or maybe you think you come across as cold in real life, far from the feminine ideal, and feel as though people may be repulsed by that?


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

Elvira said:


> So I'm curious (especially from the older members) how sex and dating worked back in _your_ time. Is the notion of taking a girl out to a couple of nice dates before trying anything sexual antiquated? I'm sure there were horny teenagers back then as well, but it seems like we have the tendency to view the past with nostalgia when it comes to dating. Was hooking up 'a thing' back then?
> 
> I'm a 21 year old virgin in college and I'm finding it really hard to date. I'm really not into hooking up because having sex or being sexual with someone with whom I have no emotional intimacy has no lure to me.  Maybe it's because I'm an INFJ. I feel like I would have to trust someone and have a lot of emotional intimacy before I let them inside me. (lol). But maybe I just haven't met the right random stranger who turns me on like a light switch :wink:
> 
> ...


As far as I can tell, generally, girls only really respond to men who display their sexuality openly and push for sex.

I'd totally join you in bashing those guys, but I can understand why they do it. I would prefer to develop a connection first, yet I am alone. So, I can understand why guys might prefer to act like that over the alternative, which seems to be total alienation.


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## paperbrain (Jan 4, 2013)

dizzycactus said:


> Well, I wasn't saying anything about you, it was just a kind of apparent logical paradox of the situation. Ti and all that lol.
> I fully understand what you're saying. I feel the same with girls. Once they've been through a few relationships, if they were to choose me, I'd just feel like the next guy on the conveyor belt. Expendable, replaceable. Although, that could be mitigated somewhat if they were to reassure me that I mean a lot to them.
> Well, my friend was already taken when I met her. She said, if she wasn't, things could have been different. Usually, I would just brush that off as condescending, a lie to make me feel better. But, I believe her, because the guy she's with is not only a virgin, but has anxiety issues to the point that he can't even meet her, and she has been willing to try and get through that for months now. If she can see such worth in him, despite such anxiety usually repelling women to such an extent, then maybe she really can also see such worth in me, genuinely. It's sad to me that we can only be friends, because she is such a wonderful rarity, but at the same time, to have her in my life at all gives me more happiness than anything I remember, so it's a kind of bittersweet thing lol. To touch happiness, but be unable to grasp it. And she can't even talk/video chat, for other reasons, at the moment. I've only talked to her twice before. So, text is all I have.
> You may notice, or at least I have noticed in myself, that I come across almost like an NF. Reading back what I say, it's like a weird blend of Ti logic and emotion. I attribute that to her. She is an INFP, and I think having to communicate and wanting to understand her has lead to a rapid Fe development.
> ...


I'm sorry she's taken. That sucks. She really sounds like a cool lady and someone who would make you happy. I do think she's missing out not having you as a boyfriend, in my opinion because you sound like such a smart, well educated, sweet, unique and very likable guy. But on the flip side,her boyfriend sounds like an interesting guy too. So this girl is doubly lucky. I think the anxiety issues he has sound fascinating and oddly charming. It seems like she has good taste in men. :wink:

I wouldn't say I necessarily have a low opinion of myself per say, but I am quite shy, which I suppose is repulsive in itself to some people though I've improved some. Since I'm an INTJ I have been told I can come across as aloof or cold as you say and when I do open my mouth sometimes I probably don't think about how cutting some of the things that roll off my tongue might be. A lot of what I say is really meant to be amusing but I suppose I may be relatively unamusing to some.

I, of course live life like anyone else seeing myself from the inside out so I don’t see what other people see and the way I am is normal to me because that's what I am every day. I have to learn to be more aware that perhaps I am not so much the norm. And despite my ridiculously long posts, like I said I'm actually quite shy and reserved. But under the icy exterior and the smarty pants posts I sometimes do, I have a big heart for the people who I do let into my life. I really do. I meant everything I said about how I would treat a guy who was a virgin. I really would move heaven and earth to make him happy. I have dated a virgin by the way and the way I said I would treat that type of guy is how I treated him. So I guess I speak from some element of experience as far as that matter goes.

And I suppose also being an INTJ makes me far from the feminine ideal. I guess, without making any sweeping generalizations I hope, a fair amount of us female INTJ’s have a feminine exterior and dare I say a "masculine"way of thinking because we are more rational and logical in the way we approach things and a lot of women I think tend to be more emotional and feeling oriented so I assume that's more the norm.

As far as my appearance goes, I am average height, I weigh 124lbs, have long brown hair and blue eyes. Is that a repulsive look? I don't know. I guess what people find attractive differs greatly from man to man. But I have to admit to the cold personality and the occasional ranting. These are things I should probably work on.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

paperbrain said:


> I'm sorry she's taken. That sucks. She really sounds like a cool lady and someone who would make you happy. I do think she's missing out not having you as a boyfriend, in my opinion because you sound like such a smart, well educated, sweet, unique and very likable guy. But on the flip side,her boyfriend sounds like an interesting guy too. So this girl is doubly lucky. I think the anxiety issues he has sound fascinating and oddly charming. It seems like she has good taste in men. :wink:
> 
> I wouldn't say I necessarily have a low opinion of myself per say, but I am quite shy, which I suppose is repulsive in itself to some people though I've improved some. Since I'm an INTJ I have been told I can come across as aloof or cold as you say and when I do open my mouth sometimes I probably don't think about how cutting some of the things that roll off my tongue might be. A lot of what I say is really meant to be amusing but I suppose I may be relatively unamusing to some.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't think any of that is necessarily bad. Maybe I personally would feed you pasta for a while till you were slightly more cuddly  but it was more just because of how you saw yourself, rather than actually thinking there really was something wrong. I am shy and reserved myself, with new people. I guess it doesn't come across here, either, because, internally, I actually have quite a lot to say, I just don't feel safe to say it to many people in real life. 
I actually like the idea of a more shy girl. I guess it's just that, shy people like us often don't connect with each other, because we're both too shy lol. That's why places like this can be good. But I tend to dislike people who are too loud or confident. Too much confidence makes me distrust instantly. They're probably a narcissist or something. 
I'm sure you look fine. I think I'm ugly, but people tell me I look fine, so maybe it's just my own perception that is screwed up or something. http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9126/cam120120307223314.jpg
But, it's probably not surprising that I am alone, considering that I am 300lbs or so. 
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/34/26301024613967540182210.jpg
(Don't have the original, uncensored image anymore lol)

I think many of us do want a partner who is openly caring. I know, I tend to fall easily for girls that show a little love and understanding, but that doesn't tend to happen often anyway. But, I don't think being a T type means you can't fulfill such needs. From what I've read, T doesn't really affect your ability to have emotions, just that you don't judge on them. So, maybe you wouldn't express them quite as readily as might be wanted, at first, but I think with the right person, once we trust them, the feelings come out much easier. I think I can only be so expressive here because you remind me of her a little, enough that I think I can trust you, yet also quite different. And I should probably stop, because I'm starting to sound a little crazy  
Ha, guess I rant too, then. Ranting is good. 
Although, I find sometimes INTJs can phrase things in a hurtful way. I think they tend to state things in absolutes, is what annoys me. For example, "lose weight" compared to "I think you might look better if you lost some weight". One is a command, and an absolute statement. The other acknowledges that it is just personal opinion, and is less intrusive/overbearing. I always react badly to the first type of statement, because INTPs don't like being controlled at all, pressured into deciding something. Do you think you might sometimes phrase things similarly? I think a lot less people would be offended if you were to adjust the mode of address to the latter format.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

Elvira said:


> So I'm curious (especially from the older members) how sex and dating worked back in _your_ time. Is the notion of taking a girl out to a couple of nice dates before trying anything sexual antiquated? I'm sure there were horny teenagers back then as well, but it seems like we have the tendency to view the past with nostalgia when it comes to dating. Was hooking up 'a thing' back then?
> 
> I'm a 21 year old virgin in college and I'm finding it really hard to date. I'm really not into hooking up because having sex or being sexual with someone with whom I have no emotional intimacy has no lure to me.  Maybe it's because I'm an INFJ. I feel like I would have to trust someone and have a lot of emotional intimacy before I let them inside me. (lol). But maybe I just haven't met the right random stranger who turns me on like a light switch :wink:
> 
> ...


I wish I knew what to say to give you strength and courage, @Elvira, but you're doing the right thing.
The more casual sex a woman has, the more difficult it becomes for her to truly bond with a man, when she wants to find someone to marry. (There are hard statistics on this, relating to prior number of sexual partners vs. divorce rates up through ten years of marriage.)

As for the men, most men want the woman to love *him*, and not have to compete with the ghosts of former hook-ups and lovers.
One of the reasons things seem so skewed, is that the most promiscuous people are the loudest about beating the drums for "self-realization" and "not being repressed" : but the deleterious effects of promiscuity most often show up years later, and in more diffuse terms, such as a history of depression, failed relationships, difficulty in trusting or opening up, that kind of thing.

IF you are worried about how to attract a boyfriend / someone to date, without giving up sex, here are a number of suggestions:
1) To meet guys, first figure out the type of man you are attracted to. If it is an INTJ / INTP, for example, head over to the engineering or physics buildings, or the sci-fi conventions, that kind of thing. If you want an athletic guy (but NOT a hardcore jock), 
check out the intramural sports / running club, that kind of thing. More thoughtful, mature, respectful men will be at libraries or bookstores or such, than at the frat parties and keggers. And don't forget going up to that cute guy in your class and asking for help with an assignment: men like to lead, and they secretly love it when a woman gives them an opportunity to do so.
2) Men are visual creatures, and yes, men want sex. But that doesn't mean you have to give them sex: in fact, you can get dates or commitment from men (the ones who would be worth a relationship / LTR), by *holding out* on sex, but instead doing the following:
a) flirting : a coy smile and hair toss, and the sidelong eye contact then looking down, is like catnip to men.
b) acting *feminine*: don't brag about your career prospects or try to one-up him; rather, flatter him (sincerely), smile, ask about his interests and try to learn about them. Men have enough competition from other men, they don't want to date someone who acts like a man as well !
c) This is going to sound really off-the-wall, but a tray of brownies or something like that (if you live in an apartment off-campus, or the dorm has a communal kitchen) is something that most college girls don't know how to make; or, they feel is beneath them. You will stand out like a rose in a garden full of cactus if you do this.
d) pay attention to your looks: men are visual creatures. Try a good consignment store for clothes that fit and flatter you, rather than sweatpants and a baggy top. Dress modestly (emphasize *either* your legs *or* your cleavage *or* show skin, but never more than just one of those), yet alluringly.
e) pay attention to your surroundings; if you want to keep chaste, don't go up to his room "to watch a movie" at 10:00 PM when it will be just the two of you. That's asking for "mistakes on purpose" if you catch my drift. Find activities which will engage the two of you in *getting to know one another*: zoos, museums, cultural exhibits, bicycling or hiking; go out to a breakfast and take turns reading each other's favorite short stories or books to each other.

In short: act and dress like a GIRL, who wants a traditional relationship, but do your best to present yourself in places where non-hookup-minded men will be. 

Don't listen to the hookup crowd, particularly the girls: a girl's window of peak opportunity for attracting the best man is very short.

It might not seem that way now, but a woman's marriageability is primarily on looks, then on character: by avoiding hookups, you keep your character, and your looks begin to go downhill *rapidly* by age 30. The hookup crowd flatters themselves that since they can sleep with hot men, then those men will be willing to marry them later: but this isn't true. The hookup men take advantage of the fact that the older a man gets, the *more* attractive he is, since his poise, confidence, money, and experience are what make him attractive to a girl, and those get better with age...for a man. So the hookup men continue to romp with young women, even as they get older. But by the time the hookup girls figure this out, that they are just playthings and not considered as LTR-worthy, it is too late: they are already competing with younger, better-looking, less-experienced women. So they end up writing magazine articles about "Where are all the good men?"...and the answer is, the good men are either already married, or busy ignoring the women who USED to ignore them, in favor of hooking up with douchebags.

Oh, full disclosure. I got married in my early 20's (early in grad school, I have a PhD) and I've been married over 25 years.
It takes work, but so does anything else in life worth having.

Good luck to you!


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

You couldn't be more wrong.
Look up statistics on teen pregnancy, STD rates, and abortions.
Track them over time.

(Hint. Over 1 million abortions a year equates to over 1 million pregnancies a year...most of them "out-of-wedlock". Try and get anyone with an IQ over the low 30s to agree that there were over 1 million unplanned, out-of-wedlock pregnancies in the late 1940s.)

The differences are in fact wholesale, cultural differences, and have to do with everything from women being financially self-sufficient (so that they don't *need* to get married to earn a living) to the birth-control pill, to vast declines in public and private moral standards. For just one example, back in the 1950s and up through most of the 1960s, if a TV show depicted
A MAN AND WIFE in bed, at least one member of the couple had to have their feet ON THE FLOOR. And that was *married* couples! (Compare that to, say, Sluts And The City...)

It's a shame so many people believe propaganda based on the mistaken belief that human history began the year they were born.


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## purposive (Jun 4, 2013)

I am confused to why you believe that most guys would rather hook up than seek out a genuine relationship with you, if you are a virgin? I'm not attacking you, but it is a little strange. 

Before I met my wife, I was on the fence. I did hook up specifically with women but I made sure to do it with women that agreed with the terms. It wasn't like I went out and spotted a woman and took her home. No. I got to know her to an extent. We had to have something in common. Men do it, just as much as women. Nothing is wrong with wanting to hook up with people, as long as you are reasonable, smart and safe. Don't lead people on because that isn't a nice spot to be in for you and the other person.

Also about the dating site - what do you expect? Most people on these sites especially the free ones are in it for sexual pleasure. And to be fair, I don't understand women who have your type of thinking? A man wanting sex isn't a bad thing. I am sure they put out signs and make this obvious but maybe you wanted to see something different? You can't always think that men don't want sex even if it is the fourth date because they do. Some men just take their time in that avenue. Also you don't need to tell these men that you are a virgin because you're encouraging men like that to sexualize you and nothing more. You also need to be upfront with your intentions. Because I assure you that the men that simply want to hook up won't bother engaging in cover satin with you to begin with.

Lastly, there are lots of people who share your type of thinking. You fail to see the bigger picture here. I also doubt that your college knows or even cares about your personal convictions when it comes to the idea of relationships and sex. It's also not hard to find someone with like interests, you're just searching the wrong places.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

First off, nice reviving an old thread that was filled with pointless fighting and should have stayed dead.

Second off - Me wanting sex early in a relationship is not the same as me wanting to not have a relationship and just have casual sex. Notice how I said "early in a relationship". About the only time sex happens outside of "a relationship", is a one-night stand. In all other cases, there is a relationship established. It might be a fully committed non-sexual puritanical courtship that's expected to last for years before marriage, and then sex... OR it might be friends with benefits, casual dating, serious dating, exclusive dating, yada yada, but whatever it is, it's something.

This whole "people didn't have abortions because the media of the time doesn't reflect it" idea is crap. The media didn't reflect it because the media wasn't allowed to reflect it because people were slow to change social norms and expectations from the "don't act christian and we'll kill you" of the previous era. It was like a mexican stand-off made up of accusations about loose morals and such. 

Since there's explosive population growth, you obviously won't have the same number of abortions - not to even address how few were reported vs. hidden - because you'll have a different number of people. Sex has always happened. Abortions have always happened. There would arguably be fewer abortions per capita because contraceptives became available. 
Different social classes have sex and court differently, and it's ridiculous to think there's some universal code of sex that a society abides by. 

People do what they feel ok doing, and that's all there is to it. Personally, sex is always going to be part of a dating relationship because it's essential to my well-being, and I'm going to pursue it. Not necessarily from the 1st date or anything, but at a pace we're both comfortable with. A few years ago, someone I met and I had a discussion about sex and what we wanted from the relationship. It was quite beneficial.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

I am somewhat older (32) and I think people didn't change that much. I think most people are more open about sex than before and the internet provides us with more openness. 

If I go out to a club or bar, I can have sex right there (I'm good looking and most people think I am a model or actor) but still it doesn't feel right to me to bang just anyone. The best and most enjoyable sex is sex I have with women I really like and can communicate with. Sex is a form of communication after all. If I only like her physically, I get bored and tired, I simply lose my interest and I can't achieve orgasm or I can barely keep my twilight stick up in the air xD

Nowadays it's easier to hook up then before perhaps. Internet dating is more acceptable now. But I still think that most people still need to have/feel some form of intimacy and mutual fondness, and they get bored of just having casual meet ups and/or sex.


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## Adynaton (Jun 12, 2013)

Elvira said:


> It just seems strange to me that the hook up has been hailed as a hallmark of feminism. While I agree that it's good that we are taking some of the taboo away from sex, I feel like girls who aren't okay with the hookup culture get stigmatized. I mean, I haven't even given a handjob so sex is really big to me, and guys look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them that. (I'm not unattractive). Also, I'm sure there are anecdotes about hook up successes, but all of my friends who have tried it had pretty terrible results. A lot of them ended up feeling used.


What you just said actually reminds me of something the female protagonist, Celine, says in the movie Before Sunrise. She talks about a hypothesis of hers, in which men created the idea of feminism so that women would be more willing to hook up and have one night stands, under the idea of 'liberation'. roud:

Regarding your complaints though, I completely agree. I'm an INFJ as well who happens to be mostly gay, and what you say seems to be an unfortunate inevitability. It looks like it's something almost ingrained into the materialistic meat market of the young dating world.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

purposive said:


> Also about the dating site - what do you expect? Most people on these sites especially the free ones are in it for sexual pleasure.


Most free online dating sites are filled with anti-social women who think they are princesses and have insanely high expectations. I think the free part makes the barrier to entry very low. I have found online dating sites to be the following:

1.) A chick that is a 2-4 looking for a 7-10.
2.) Uneducated as heck and cannot spell or use grammar to save their lives.
3.) Already has a kid or multiple kids in the early 20's.
4.) Has no aspirations to go anywhere in life.
5.) Insanely obese.
6.) Insanely religious.
7.) Scary feminist

I mean my criteria for a for a relationship is the following:
1.) No kids
2.) College education
3.) Some goals or aspirations in life to do something with their lives
4.) Not insanely obese
5.) Not insanely religious or doesn't hold extreme views (religion, politics, radical feminism)


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## purposive (Jun 4, 2013)

PowerShell said:


> Most free online dating sites are filled with anti-social women who think they are princesses and have insanely high expectations. I think the free part makes the barrier to entry very low. I have found online dating sites to be the following:
> 
> 1.) A chick that is a 2-4 looking for a 7-10.
> 2.) Uneducated as heck and cannot spell or use grammar to save their lives.
> ...


Hah. I see your point. There are a lot of those I have to admit. Luckily my wife was none of what you listed. She was rare and I remember reading her inbox messages, a lot of guys tried to get at her. I met a few that were bat shit crazy, needy and emotionally floppy. What site did or do you use?


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

PowerShell said:


> Most free online dating sites are filled with anti-social women who think they are princesses and have insanely high expectations.


In Asia, this is called Gong Ju Byung, or literally Princess Syndrome. They have a sense of entitlement and are highly narcissistic.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

purposive said:


> Hah. I see your point. There are a lot of those I have to admit. Luckily my wife was none of what you listed. She was rare and I remember reading her inbox messages, a lot of guys tried to get at her. I met a few that were bat shit crazy, needy and emotionally floppy. What site did or do you use?


I use OkCupid and Plenty of Fish. Granted I live in a rural town of 19,000 in the center of Wisconsin the the nearest town of comparable size is 40 miles away. There's a lot of uneducated country bumpkins around here and you would think with a large medical complex being based out of here, there would be some educated women around here. I know how pyscho guys can get on there. For a prank on a certain someone who basically kept posting vile hate-filled BS on Facebook and such, we created a fake chick account on OkCupid looking for a hookup and then gave out his number to all these crazy guys on there. I swear his phone was ringing off the hook.



Athena Avril said:


> In Asia, this is called Gong Ju Byung, or literally Princess Syndrome. They have a sense of entitlement and is highly narcissistic.


America has its own entitlement problem and what you describe probably exists in America (probably x100) but doesn't have a formal name to it yet.


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

PowerShell said:


> America has its own entitlement problem and what you describe probably exists in America (probably x100) but doesn't have a formal name to it yet.


At the moment, I am not sure of the demographics of women suffering from Princess Syndrome. This term just happen to pop up in my mind when you described about this entitlement problem. According to the article, the root cause of it is low self-esteem that begins from childhood, which results in succumbing to society's expectations.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

ken07 said:


> This topic is so varied and I cant really put it into words, if I could upload my mind to you, it might seem easier. What I see is that people want certain things, but people are not willing to put in as much time to get them, or they have a certain standard or ideology that becomes very hard to get. Often times it seems that the emotional side of people never gets what it wants, but the sexual side doesnt seem to care and "always" runs in the background. Some people are so superficial that they cant see their match right in front of their face, and some people assume things from reading two pages of someones book. All and all love is like a battlefield, and eventually people get frustrated, they get angry and they start doing things like not caring about their emotional needs and just going after the sexual (i know a friend like that), some become walking wounded, some even change their sexual orientation, some just plain give up. [...]


Quoted just because




ken07 said:


> *I would love it if I could find a girl that is affectionate, loving and just a downright playful silly girl that makes me laugh and enjoy every minute of being with her, a girl that I can literally do things with that me and her enjoy doing together.* This was my best way to explain this.





All in Twilight said:


> The best and most enjoyable sex is sex I have with *women I really like and can communicate with.* Sex is a form of communication after all. If I only like her physically, I get bored and tired, I simply lose my interest [...]
> 
> I still think that most *people still need to have/feel some form of intimacy and mutual fondness, *and they get bored of just having casual meet ups and/or sex.


I meet these men constantly. They want to connect & talk & have fun & be silly. And it's nice. They also want to have sex. Which I'm sure can be nice too.

Dating after all is about exploring. These guys--and they are of all sorts--ultimately seem to want a friend . . . who they can also be physical with. It's understandable. We all crave the emotional & the physical.


The disconnect for ladies like Elvira & me might be that we are goal-oriented. We know that sex with people we are emotionally connected to leads to more emotional connection. And if we don't see that there's any relationship of the sort we seek to be had, it is just folly to walk into more & more aimless romantic investment.


I absolutely do & can separate sex & love & romance. I simply know I can only have _recreational_ sex with people I see no prospect with.




Elvira said:


> *But it's become increasingly harder to find a guy who wants to get to know me well before doing sexual things.* It seems like most guys want to 'hook up' and then see where a relationship goes (which most likely is nowhere!), rather than starting a relationship and _then_ getting sexual. Really, *how many guys* who hook up *are looking for something serious?* I feel somewhat judged at college for being a "prude" because I don't want to engage in random sex. I don't judge those who do, but I just know that I wouldn't emotionally be able to handle it, and it probably wouldn't be that pleasurable (for me) due to the lack of intimacy. [...]
> Girls (and I guess guys too), are any of you really frustrated with this hook up culture? *It seems so difficult to find anyone who wants a relationship anymore.*


Dearest @_Elvira_, men want to have sex. Women want to have sex too. This is being human. Anyone dating you, assume he/she wants to have sex . . . at some point. Don't you?

The people who just want sex from you out themselves easily enough when you don't engage. For you, I think the obstacle in your adventures is going to lie here: just because someone *isn't* looking for just sex does NOT mean he is looking for "something serious." All of that enjoying & laughing & playfulness that he desires, seeks you out for, & even needs, none of that indicates that he's going to want *more *than that with you, that he does or will want a relationship, i.e. commitment, _with you_. Some may call this "casual relating" or "intimacy lite." It's also just . . . life. Sometimes we enjoy people even if it doesn't ultimately mean Love. And even Love doesn't necessarily mean more.


So, given what I said above, no, my problem isn't in or with hookup culture. We are all free to do what we like. My problem is with my goal-orientedness being in conflict with the go-with-the-flow, breezy nature of what other people seem to be comfortable with. If I like you but feel no answer to the question of "is this going anywhere," it's going to be hard for me to choose to invest in you sexually because that is a point of no return for me. Meanwhile, not having sex with someone who likes you _is_ read as doubt or simply not wanting to get invested or to know them. A Catch-22.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

smallpeas said:


> Dearest @_Elvira_, men want to have sex. Women want to have sex too. This is being human. Anyone dating you, assume he/she wants to have sex . . . at some point. Don't you?
> 
> The people who just want sex from you out themselves easily enough when you don't engage. For you, I think the obstacle in your adventures is going to lie here: just because someone *isn't* looking for just sex does NOT mean he is looking for "something serious." All of that enjoying & laughing & playfulness that he desires, seeks you out for, & even needs, none of that indicates that he's going to want *more *than that with you, that he does or will want a relationship, i.e. commitment, _with you_. Some may call this "casual relating" or "intimacy lite." It's also just . . . life. Sometimes we enjoy people even if it doesn't ultimately mean Love. And even Love doesn't necessarily mean more.
> 
> ...


You know what? Elvira is right here. Most guys think with their dicks no matter how nice they are. Now of course, we can't deny our biological nature (I can but I have practiced this) but I understand why most women want to feel respected and loved first. (Whether this is good or bad doesn't matter)
I met this girl and she she was dating a guy she really liked but she got sick and tired of him wanting anal sex and she told him that she wasn't up for it but he still kept on pushing his own little desire (probably for trophy reason, the poor sucker) and eventually they broke up. So the guy was only interested in his own shit (well, actually her shit xD). So how nice was he really? Is that respect? is that love? Fuck him and fuck guys like that. 

Biologically speaking, the condom is an artificial design for pleasure purposes only but I think emotionally it's still about creating new life. The latter is our nature with all the emotional stuff attached to it, the first isn't or is not a part of our emotional system I think. I am not speaking on behalf of every women here (I am not even a woman myself) so maybe someone here or you can explain what it means to have sex emotionally wise?


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## Jasper Yuuki (Feb 12, 2013)

All in Twilight said:


> You know what? Elvira is right here. Most guys think with their dicks no matter how nice they are. Now of course, we can't deny our biological nature (I can but I have practiced this) but I understand why most women want to feel respected and loved first. (whether this is good or bad doesn't matter)
> I met this girl and she she was dating a guy she really liked but she got sick and tired of him wanting anal sex and she told him that she wasn't up for it but he still kept on pushing his own little desire (probably for trophy reason, the poor sucker) and eventually they broke up. So the guy was only interested in his own shit (well, actually her shit xD). So how nice was he really? Is that respect? is that love? Fuck him and fuck guys like that.
> 
> Biologically speaking, the condom is an artificial design for pleasure purposes only but I think emotionally it's still about creating new life. The latter is our nature with all the emotional stuff attached to it, the first isn't or is not a part of our emotional system I think. I am not speaking on behalf of every women here (I am not even a woman myself) so maybe someone here or you can explain what it means to have sex emotionally wise?


Respect to you!

This is my opinion, therefore it isn't necessarily the same for others. As a Catholic, I don't agree to premarital sex because sex is about emotional bonding at a husband-and-wife level. Boyfriends and girlfriends, no matter how committed they are, are in a sense still 'friends' who connect to each other romantically, without the commitment to stick together through thick and thin because it is still a 'trial' to test how compatible they are. 

Ideally, the meaning of marriage is to be support one's spouse through thick and thin, especially emotionally. In my opinion sex is about expressing the emotional connection to one's spouse, not something to be taken likely just for the sake of satisfying one's desires. I have tried premarital sex once out of curiosity, I am sure that I won't want to do it again until marriage.

That's my opinion towards sex.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

Jasper Yuuki said:


> Respect to you!
> 
> This is my opinion, therefore it isn't necessarily the same for others. As a Catholic, I don't agree to premarital sex because sex is about emotional bonding at a husband-and-wife level. Boyfriends and girlfriends, no matter how committed they are, are in a sense still 'friends' who connect to each other romantically, without the commitment to stick together through thick and thin because it is still a 'trial' to test how compatible they are.
> 
> ...


Sure and thanks! xD

The thing with marriage is that there is nothing sacred about it. It's a concept invented by humans. Love is not something you can conceptualize or cultivate. Love is not possession and love is not pleasure. Love can only come into being when there is total freedom. And especially freedom from fear. Fear destroys love. 

It's your life and I don't want you to just follow blindly what I have just told you and what I am about to tell you. But inquire if there is any fear involved when you think about marriage and concerning the reasons why you want to get married. Is it security? is it possession? Is it fear of being abandoned? Is it fear that the God you don't know (I'm not an atheist btw but I am pretty sure you have a subject-object relationship with God hence my somewhat crude and straightforward accusation and if that is not the case, then I apologize) will punish you? Love can't be institutionalized just like religion. Religion is derived from the Latin word we now know as relationship or connection. Right now you and I are having a relationship or a connection. Just like you have a relationship with your career, nature, your god, your neighbor and so on. That is religion.

Do I need marriage to support a person? You can have my support and I don't even know you but is that important? What is compatible? That we share the same outlooks, like the same fashion, go to the same church, vote for the same politician, have the same traditions? That's a form of narcissism because I get confirmed or my ideas get confirmed through you. I am falling in love with my reflection. Is that compatibility? Nope. True compatibility can come into being when there is no self anymore so wipe out the ego, this self image you created to make the mind feel secure, and then everyone is compatible. This is not a personal attack, but it is something to think about perhaps. It's your life so make the most out of it.


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## Jasper Yuuki (Feb 12, 2013)

All in Twilight said:


> Sure and thanks! xD
> 
> The thing with marriage is that there is nothing sacred about it. It's a concept invented by humans. Love is not something you can conceptualize or cultivate. Love is not possession and love is not pleasure. Love can only come into being when there is total freedom. And especially freedom from fear. Fear destroys love.
> 
> ...


You're welcome!

I wouldn't consider marriage as a sacred institution, rather more along the lines of a promise to be with someone through thick and thin. In practice this can be achieved in a relationship without going through marriage if both parties are very determined and committed to each other. However, due to the prevalence of the 'hookup culture' and casual relationships, marriage is merely used to differentiate between a relationship that is not legally recognised and a relationship that is.

What you said about the fear of loss is very true, and that is why many people are holding onto a relationship/marriage that is failing.

I never follow anything blindly, no worries. My personal reasons are emotional security (not too interested in the financial security aspect of marriage) and I would be lying if I saw there is no fear of abandonment. A sin is a conscious act which causes harm to another or to oneself, which is being done despite the doer knowing the consequences of it. I believe that God will forgive anyone who sincerely feels sorry for what they have done. No offense taken, no worries. I take it that the bottom line is that love is free and cannot be conformed according to a set of rules?

I answered as I did previously due to the prevalence of the 'hookup culture' with no strings attached. As long as both parties are emotionally supportive of each other and determined to stick through hard times together, it isn't necessary for marriage to support a person. 

I do not think it is necessary to actually know someone before deciding to support them. Most of the times, love is not free for a lot of people. Therefore there will be expectations for commitment. When these expectations are not met and promises are broken, both parties will feel hurt. In such circumstances, marriage is a promise not to abandon a person when times are tough. Compatibility is more about how well both will get along, how willing both parties are to cooperate with each other and to put differences aside to support each other.

Now that I see compatibility from this perspective, I find this true. No wonder so many relationships with compatible individuals fail; because the search for romance is for somebody who is similar to oneself as an ego boost. That brings down the wall of expectations and requirements for love.

It's ok, I didn't see what you say as a personal attack. I see your post as seeing new perspectives in my life without making drastic changes.

You have some interesting insights, thank you for sharing with me!

PS: Do you mind if I share this with my friend? She's struggling with coming to terms about her disappointing love life so it's very relevant to comfort her.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

@Jasper Yuuki

Please share, go ahead.

Although you have given this a lot of thought, we still differ here and there but that's ok plus I think you are heading for the same direction as I did before. I liked reading it. 

If I have to give it words, then I basically explained the teachings of Lao Tzu and Siddhartha Gautama but they both explained their teaching from a meditative and enlightened state and there are no words in that state. I just noticed the quote in your signature and he is right. If there is peace inwardly, then there is peace outwardly. So first we must be at peace and totally at peace without any form of fear. If you reach that state, anything can enter because you're empty and that emptiness is endless.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> Most guys think with their dicks no matter how nice they are.


Yes, I meet plenty of nice guys who seem to be led by their desire to have sex with me. I get it; it's attraction. I'm sure most of these guys ultimately want something fulfilling & deep. But that doesn't mean it will or can be with me or that we are on the same page. And I have no way of knowing if we are on a similar page without getting to know them more as people not through sex.

I find sex clouds things. I know too many people (mostly men) who use it as a way of communicating & connecting in place of actually communicating. I know (lots of) men who've slept with all their female (now) friends because . . that's how they form connections, express affection, vulnerability, closeness. I know many of my hetero (& some non-hetero) male friends have a fluidity of boundaries between friendship & sex with respect to female friends (they find attractive) that I don't understand. Sex-as-bonding is like a band-aid for all the would-be glaring gaps & possible problems in a relationship, sex & oxytocin expediating a sense intimacy (chemically) that isn't actually there (emotionally). Recognizing all of this, life experience, + stage of life changing what I actually want out of relationships have shifted my desire to have sex (early) with people I truly want to try to connect with. I agree sex is a form of communication, but it is not & cannot be a primary form of communication in relating. It is not a foundation.


So, if you are just go-with-the-flow & looking for whatever light, fun times come your way, that's great, but we then aren't compatible beyond friendship at the given time. Having sex with you because we like each other & sex is nice isn't going to change that for either of us.




All in Twilight said:


> So the guy was only interested in his own shit [...]. So how nice was he really? Is that respect? is that love?


It becomes easy to tell the people who are self-involved the more you interact with people. As I said earlier, just because someone wants to spend time with you doesn't mean he/she really sees it as more than that. In the early stages, a lot of times I'm trying to suss out if a person's interest is even about me so much as about some image of me or my filling some spot in the person's life. The more self-focused a person is, the less likely it's about me--no reason to further invest in a nowhere journey.


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## Jasper Yuuki (Feb 12, 2013)

All in Twilight said:


> @_Jasper Yuuki_
> 
> Please share, go ahead.
> 
> ...


I have shared with her your post. Thank you!

I suppose that we differ in maturity, so I am still on the way to where you are in terms of understanding. I am glad that you enjoy our conversation; so do I.

I have not read up much on entering the state of enlightenment, and based on what I understand, reaching that state means letting go of all boundaries and limitations so that one can be open-minded about everything. When one is not in peace with themself because of holding onto notions that limit one's beliefs, one cannot see things clearly because the mind is blinded by emotions and preconceived beliefs.

You introduced a new perspective to the quote. It's nice talking to you, hope to see you again next time!


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Jasper Yuuki said:


> Respect to you!
> 
> This is my opinion, therefore it isn't necessarily the same for others. As a Catholic, I don't agree to premarital sex because sex is about emotional bonding at a husband-and-wife level.


And that is why there is a huge gap in opinion on this. Most of the people base it on their beliefs.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

"Hookup culture not as prevalent as believed, study shows"

Hookup culture not as prevalent as believed, study shows — Brown Daily Herald


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> Love is not possession and love is not pleasure. Love can only come into being when there is total freedom. And especially freedom from fear. Fear destroys love.
> 
> [...]Right now you and I are having a relationship or a connection. Just like you have a relationship with your career, nature, your god, your neighbor and so on. That is religion.
> 
> [...]True compatibility can come into being when there is no self anymore so wipe out the ego, this self image you created to make the mind feel secure, and then everyone is compatible.


I am totally off-topic here, but I personally don't even seek or crave Love, in the romantic sense. I've understood that what I want is companionship. Given the nature of my being, that is not something that is here today, gone tomorrow. Caring, in whatever form, is not just a little and not just for now. It is forever. It is for that reason that I only find it fulfilling to truly engage with people on the same page about this.

I would love to find someone/s who want/s companionship. People generally don't want to give a deep level of themselves to someone they are not also romantically involved with though. Their companionate interest is wrapped up in sexual interest. And those 2 things don't necessarily intertwine for me. It's easy to find sex. It's easy to find people who are interested in you as a person. It's not easy to separate out people's interest in you from their libido. Sex is great, but I've had enough of it in my life to know it's not something that will sustain me. It is just a note, not the song. I haven't found many people seeming to want to go down the companion road who can see past their own sexual wants or romantic ideals to actually see _me_, to just be with me. What I want apparently isn't what most people want. (Something unconditional, not conditional.)


I agree with what you've written above except the bit about everyone being compatible. We can all live peacefully together, cordially, find things we agree on, put aside the things we don't, but I don't think that indicates compatibility. And I don't think there's any reason we all need to be compatible.


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## KateMarie999 (Dec 20, 2011)

This is actually why I tend to pursue guys who are waiting for marriage. I don't like the pressure and it really takes the pressure off knowing you're not going to be expected to have sex until there's a real commitment. My issue tends to be guys I'm not attracted to wanting me to date them anyway and see where things go... those kind of guys tend to take the other extreme, unfortunately.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

smallpeas said:


> I am totally off-topic here, but I personally don't even seek or crave Love, in the romantic sense. I've understood that what I want is companionship. Given the nature of my being, that is not something that is here today, gone tomorrow. Caring, in whatever form, is not just a little and not just for now. It is forever. It is for that reason that I only find it fulfilling to truly engage with people on the same page about this.
> 
> I would love to find someone/s who want/s companionship. People generally don't want to give a deep level of themselves to someone they are not also romantically involved with though. Their companionate interest is wrapped up in sexual interest. And those 2 things don't necessarily intertwine for me. It's easy to find sex. It's easy to find people who are interested in you as a person. It's not easy to separate out people's interest in you from their libido. Sex is great, but I've had enough of it in my life to know it's not something that will sustain me. It is just a note, not the song. I haven't found many people seeming to want to go down the companion road who can see past their own sexual wants or romantic ideals to actually see _me_, to just be with me. What I want apparently isn't what most people want. (Something unconditional, not conditional.)
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying but I can't express my state of being with words. But when judgment is gone, there is no like and dislike, agree and disagree, good or bad, ugly and pretty so you automatically become compatible. You can't even speak of compatibility because that words implies a form of judgment. I am actually more speaking of total acceptance of a person no matter who he or she is. If you approach a person like that, the characteristics of that person that is considered to be bad by the majority of the population disappears automatically. 

So if I talk to a black person but never name it/ talk about he or she being black with all the cultural connotations attached to, he or she never feels like that he/she needs to prove something or feels the need to fight for something. There is no judgment from my side after all. And that is what I mean with compatible. That way the other can fully express herself and I can perceive her fully and not partially (judgment shuts certain features out) what you normally see in a relationship. Maybe the word compatible was poorly chosen?


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

PowerShell said:


> And that is why there is a huge gap in opinion on this. Most of the people base it on their beliefs.


...or lack thereof.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

> I find sex clouds things. I know too many people (mostly men) who use it as a way of communicating & connecting in place of actually communicating. I know (lots of) men who've slept with all their female (now) friends because . . that's how they form connections, express affection, vulnerability, closeness. I know many of my hetero (& some non-hetero) male friends have a fluidity of boundaries between friendship & sex with respect to female friends (they find attractive) that I don't understand. Sex-as-bonding is like a band-aid for all the would-be glaring gaps & possible problems in a relationship, sex & oxytocin expediating a sense intimacy (chemically) that isn't actually there (emotionally). Recognizing all of this, life experience, + stage of life changing what I actually want out of relationships have shifted my desire to have sex (early) with people I truly want to try to connect with. I agree sex is a form of communication, but it is not & cannot be a primary form of communication in relating. It is not a foundation.


This is the money quote of the thread. 
But there are a couple of additional missing ingredients here; and that is, that men and women have different biochemical reactions to sex...in addition to oxytocin there is dopamine; and in addition, as women continue to have sex with different men, over time, their ability to do strong permanent bonding through sex decreases. Whether this is due to oxytocin itself, the neural pathways which respond to oxytocin, "the ghosts of lovers past," or what have you; the fact remains that women with higher sexual partner counts before marriage, on average, tend to have more failed marriages over time. Men who are promiscuous suffer differently; they become more jaded, and lose somewhat the ability to love and cherish one particular woman.

Another issue is that our society has become bombarded with sexuality in a more powerful form, through more pervasive media, in far more explicit forms than ever before: in the 1980s there WAS no internet for private fapping at home. There are reports coming out in regular media of men suffering erectile dysfunction around the age of 30 due to their getting used to arousal by internet porn, to the point that their arousal mechanism does not respond as well to a live woman in person. This, coupled with the adage that "sex sells" leads to the impression being given, from multiple sources, (from TV shows to magazines to advertising) that random, indiscriminate sex is the usual activity, and that anyone with a lower count than the "current average" or anyone who voluntarily abstains is some kind of nut job.

But as you said, sex is NOT a foundation for relating: and one of the results of people trying to use sex as a foundation, or even for default entertainment, is a lack of effort being put into the things that ARE a foundation for relating -- with the inevitable result, that relations are weaker, and the people less willing and/or less able to weather storms to stay together for the sake of their partner AS A PERSON -- knowing, as they would have found through experience, that life has its ups and downs, and that entering a storm together, when before all had been sunny, does not mean that the storm is going to last forever; and finding out, by enduring a storm together, that such things can increase your trust in your partner, because they had your back when you needed them, rather than just a quick orgasm (or a few weeks of such) followed by estrangement, because there really was no *relationship* in the first place.


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## carlaviii (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm glad the revival of the thread has gone well... these are things I've found myself thinking about as I'm trying to move on from a failed marriage. Such a failed marriage that it's left me questioning whether I even know what a healthy relationship is. 

FTR, I went in with a low partner count. Since I started getting what I physically need elsewhere, the number's racked up a fair amount. It didn't take long for me to decide that was enough truly casual sex and settle into the next notch up: FBs and FWBs.

And while I knew I'm not in the market for a serious relationship yet, I wonder if the day will come that I will be. And what I'll do if it does. Probably ought to say when, not if.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

smallpeas said:


> Having sex with you because we like each other & sex is nice isn't going to change [our long-term compatibility] for either of us.


I think this is where we disagree. Or rather, where we see the same thing and take two different paths because of it. Maybe it's a values thing. 
I agree that sex isn't going to alter compatibility. However, I think that that's all the more reason to do it. Sex is a human necessity. All that stuff about "stop and smell the roses" doesn't mean to me that if I'm not going to take and cultivate X wild rose plant that I can't stop and smell its flowers. It's all the more reason to enjoy them while I can because I won't be able to keep it around forever. 

This translates directly to women, but women (at least I hope har har) enjoy time spent with me too. 

So you see "makes no difference, so no" and I see "makes no difference, so might as well." Maybe it's about perceived/risk or something. 

I do think you have good points about other things. For a long time, I saw no point in dating someone I didn't see a future with, but I've realized something. I can't tell the future and what I think and reality do not always (maybe not even often) agree. Because of that, I don't know who I will be compatible and happy with without trying it out without constantly pressing for "so what about next week/month/year/decade" from the get-go. It's always on my mind - I am looking for someone with wife potential, but in the mean time, I want to have companionship while I search.

What I've learned is that nothing is permanent, and relationships banked on "forever" are unrealistic - even after a 6-year relationship. Life is imperfect, and demanding perfection from everyone in my life led me to alienate and harshly judge other people and myself. I'm going to find somebody who is imperfect for me, hopefully she's more perfect than others, but she will never be perfect, and expecting it is setting myself up for failure.

I've just exceeded a number of partners I can count on two hands recently. And my life has been richer, and I've found more to myself with each successive partner, though sex was not always an important part of the relationship with any of them.



g_w said:


> But there are a couple of additional missing ingredients here; and that is, that men and women have different biochemical reactions to sex...in addition to oxytocin there is dopamine; and in addition, as women continue to have sex with different men, over time, their ability to do strong permanent bonding through sex decreases. Whether this is due to oxytocin itself, the neural pathways which respond to oxytocin, "the ghosts of lovers past," or what have you; the fact remains that women with higher sexual partner counts before marriage, on average, tend to have more failed marriages over time. Men who are promiscuous suffer differently; they become more jaded, and lose somewhat the ability to love and cherish one particular woman.


Where did you hear/learn this? Do you have an article or source or something? People throw around claims like this left and right, and it really bothers me.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

William I am said:


> I think this is where we disagree. Or rather, where we see the same thing and take two different paths because of it. Maybe it's a values thing.
> I agree that sex isn't going to alter compatibility. However, I think that that's all the more reason to do it. Sex is a human necessity. [...]
> 
> This translates directly to women, but women (at least I hope har har) enjoy time spent with me too.
> ...


Not quite. I see it as: "makes a difference, so No unless there's no reason not to."


It's not about risk or even values so much as awareness of myself and potential consequences. I can't just sleep with everybody that passes fancy because it might be nice to share a special moment with them . . when emotions might get involved and make for not-so-nice situations on either side. (It's not just me/the woman who gets caught up in these things.)

Enjoying the company of someone doesn't have to involve having sex with that someone. Friendship seems to be severely underrated among adults.


I agree sex is a necessity. But physical need is divorced from emotional need. I can do one or the other without colluding the two, but when both are involved in some way, then there is more to be considered than just feeding a hungry body.




William I am said:


> I do think you have good points about other things. For a long time, I saw no point in dating someone I didn't see a future with, but I've realized something. I can't tell the future and what I think and reality do not always (maybe not even often) agree. Because of that, I don't know who I will be compatible and happy with without trying it out without constantly pressing for "so what about next week/month/year/decade" from the get-go. It's always on my mind - I am looking for someone with wife potential, but in the mean time, I want to have companionship while I search.
> 
> What I've learned is that nothing is permanent, and relationships banked on "forever" are unrealistic - even after a 6-year relationship. Life is imperfect


I don't actually believe in "forever" romantic relationships. Romance goes until it goes. That can be 6 months, 20 years, or indefinitely. Till you both decide you no longer want to be in it. But that's the thing: you have to first decide to both be in it, you both decide to continue, & then possibly you both decide not to continue. Relationships cannot work as a one-sided thing. So, no, why would I have any interest in investing in someone who is not also investing in me? Why try to build even a few months with someone who hasn't even decided to try to build with me? 


You and likely most (hetero) men are looking for a potential "wife" mate; until then, you want companionship. Companionship to me is not a meanwhile thing. I am not interested in being a layover or a pastime till people find whatever it is they think they are looking for. I don't function in a stagnant/stasis way. Either a person wants to be with me or doesn't (for however long that lasts). Either I want to be with a person or I don't. I either see potential there or not. If you don't, then why bumble around with me instead of seeking out or waiting for someone you actually do see potential of the sort you truly seek romantically?** If we don't enjoy each other as humans, we shouldn't be dating. If we do enjoy each other as humans but don't see a romantic alignment, we can be friends instead. I don't need to be with someone just to be with someone. I want to be with someone I actually want to be with. And who actually wants to be with me.


-----
If a person's primary reason for dating is to find someone to have recreational sex and maybe a few laughs with (which honestly, when young, I think is the most natural progression for dating, to allow you to learn about what you really want, about sex, and to slowly prepare you for what a "serious relationship" entails), that can be found by being upfront & leaving the people who are looking for something else be. Sadly, too many don't find out what page the other side is on until after too much has happened, leaving someone frayed or hurt. That seems like unnecessary & preventable hurt to me. If in doubt, ask questions first, not later. If still in doubt after the answer, walk away; your instinct is telling you something.



**"Why not?" or "for comfort/sex" as answers don't seem to take the other person into account so much as one's own present "needs/wants."


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

I waited a while until I had sex, so, no.

I dated and was intimate with people...

Never really subscribed to the "bar/club hook up" philosophy.

Sex is fun, but it's also dangerous. Be careful who you chose.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> But when judgment is gone, there is no like and dislike, agree and disagree, good or bad, ugly and pretty so you automatically become compatible. You can't even speak of compatibility because that words implies a form of judgment. I am actually more speaking of total acceptance of a person no matter who he or she is. If you approach a person like that, the characteristics of that person that is considered to be bad by the majority of the population disappears automatically.
> 
> [...] There is no judgment from my side after all. And that is what I mean with compatible. That way the other can fully express herself and I can perceive her fully and not partially (judgment shuts certain features out) what you normally see in a relationship.


Yes, we are clearly using different ideas for "compatible." I would call what you're describing "acceptance." I don't think of compatibility as having to do with judgment. (I also don't think of judgment as necessarily having to do with "bad" or "good.") I am largely an objectivist though, so (almost?) everything is relative to me. My idea of "compatibility" has to do with things fitting or not fitting, in the sense of puzzle pieces sometimes locking together easily, sometimes being close but not fitting quite right, and sometimes being wildly incongruous. I can get along with anybody for a time if we both try, but that doesn't mean we are truly compatible with each other. There may be acceptance, there may be love, there may even be like, but that doesn't mean the pieces necessarily align with ease or at all. Sensing compatibility (to me) is to sense the complementary (or supplementary) that flows more easily than not.

But I agree with your idea of what I would call "acceptance."


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

Will reply tomorrow or Sunday.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

@Elvira bro, I feel you so much I don't even.


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## purposive (Jun 4, 2013)

OP, do you think that you have high standards?


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

g_w had written:_
But there are a couple of additional missing ingredients here; and that is, that men and women have different biochemical reactions to sex...in addition to oxytocin there is dopamine; and in addition, as women continue to have sex with different men, over time, their ability to do strong permanent bonding through sex decreases. Whether this is due to oxytocin itself, the neural pathways which respond to oxytocin, "the ghosts of lovers past," or what have you; the fact remains that women with higher sexual partner counts before marriage, on average, tend to have more failed marriages over time. Men who are promiscuous suffer differently; they become more jaded, and lose somewhat the ability to love and cherish one particular woman._

To which you replied, in effect, "Pics or it didn't happen."

Try looking up the differences between dopamine (infatuation) and oxytocin (bonding) in the work of Dr. Helen Fisher at Rutgers.
For the different effect oxytocin has on men (makes them more likely to remain faithful), see here:
Oxytocin, Fidelity and Sex | Psychology Today

For an evo-psych view on why monogamy came about despite the lower rate of fertilization of women, see here:
The Rise and Fall of Sexual Promiscuity -

As far as the statistics go? On promiscuity and divorce?
Try The Social Pathologist blog,
The Social Pathologist: Sexual Partner Divorce Risk
http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/...gin-bride.html
http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/...e-risk-ii.html

For men not being able to relate to women as individuals, try the pick-up sites Chateau Heartiste and RooshV.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

g_w said:


> g_w had written:_
> But there are a couple of additional missing ingredients here; and that is, that men and women have different biochemical reactions to sex...in addition to oxytocin there is dopamine; and in addition, as women continue to have sex with different men, over time, their ability to do strong permanent bonding through sex decreases. Whether this is due to oxytocin itself, the neural pathways which respond to oxytocin, "the ghosts of lovers past," or what have you; the fact remains that women with higher sexual partner counts before marriage, on average, tend to have more failed marriages over time. Men who are promiscuous suffer differently; they become more jaded, and lose somewhat the ability to love and cherish one particular woman._
> 
> To which you replied, in effect, "Pics or it didn't happen."
> ...


I read one, the one about oxytocin - which doesn't say what the effect of oxytocin is on females - but I don't see how the combination of these things supports your statement. Correlation does not mean causation. High promiscuity may lead to more high promiscuity and then to failed marriages, and so on. These are all interesting, but I don't see support for the claims you make.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

g_w had written: _
Whether this is due to oxytocin itself, the neural pathways which respond to oxytocin, "the ghosts of lovers past," or what have you; the fact remains that women with higher sexual partner counts before marriage, on average, tend to have more failed marriages over time. _
Reply had been:
_I read one, the one about oxytocin - which doesn't say what the effect of oxytocin is on females - but I don't see how the combination of these things supports your statement. Correlation does not mean causation. High promiscuity may lead to more high promiscuity and then to failed marriages, and so on. These are all interesting, but I don't see support for the claims you make._

Re-read what I had written...did you catch the part about "...or what have you;" --> I was giving putative mechanisms for an observed statistical phenomenon, one which has been noted anecdotally and supported by more rigorous studies. The association is there, just as there is an association for men under 25 to be a greater actuarial risk for car accidents.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

g_w said:


> The association is there, just as there is an association for men under 25 to be a greater actuarial risk for car accidents.


My insurance rates sure say so for full coverage on 2 cars even though I have never been in an accident.


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## MarioAndLuigi (Jun 24, 2013)

Elvira said:


> So I'm curious (especially from the older members) how sex and dating worked back in _your_ time. Is the notion of taking a girl out to a couple of nice dates before trying anything sexual antiquated? I'm sure there were horny teenagers back then as well, but it seems like we have the tendency to view the past with nostalgia when it comes to dating. Was hooking up 'a thing' back then?
> 
> I'm a 21 year old virgin in college and I'm finding it really hard to date. I'm really not into hooking up because having sex or being sexual with someone with whom I have no emotional intimacy has no lure to me.  Maybe it's because I'm an INFJ. I feel like I would have to trust someone and have a lot of emotional intimacy before I let them inside me. (lol). But maybe I just haven't met the right random stranger who turns me on like a light switch :wink:
> 
> ...



I understand where you are coming from and I am INTJ, we tend to understand where all the 16 types are coming from, but in our heads (that did not sound cocky at all, did it now?). I only want to be with somebody if it is a long-term relationship, otherwise it seems like a complete and utter waste of my time. I have had one or two friends in high school and only been near one of them every now and then because he's in a certain rock band touring the country. I think he's my only friend, I'm pretty sure he realizes that. I like to stay loyal and true to few people. Once I find one person to be friends with or in a relationship with, it is too much hassle to find somebody else where we can tolerate each other and be mutual to each other. I want to be with a woman for a long time that leads into marriage and having kids before getting sexual for play. I just don't want to waste my time on some random woman who never has any future plans with me. This loyalty factor does make me a very prudish boy; I think this may be obvious.

P.S.: I just met this couple who live in a 16th floor condo and it's just a boyfriend & girlfriend relationship, no fiancé or anything, she goes to a local community college, has no children, and she's 39 years old, but looks 31. That is scary for me because I'm in my mid-20's and I want children very much when I'm in my 30's. I'm happily satisfied if I can just find one woman on the entire planet who understands me because as an INTJ, it is a very difficult task at hand. Once I find her, I will not relinquish her for anything. A true INTJ would feel loyalty like me, but will still go with the flow to prevent being alone and hopefully change a current short-term relationship to a long-term relationship.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

MarioAndLuigi said:


> I understand where you are coming from and I am INTJ, we tend to understand where all the 16 types are coming from, but in our heads (that did not sound cocky at all, did it now?). I only want to be with somebody if it is a long-term relationship, otherwise it seems like a complete and utter waste of my time. I have had one or two friends in high school and only been near one of them every now and then because he's in a certain rock band touring the country. I think he's my only friend, I'm pretty sure he realizes that. I like to stay loyal and true to few people. Once I find one person to be friends with or in a relationship with, it is too much hassle to find somebody else where we can tolerate each other and be mutual to each other. I want to be with a woman for a long time that leads into marriage and having kids before getting sexual for play. I just don't want to waste my time on some random woman who never has any future plans with me. This loyalty factor does make me a very prudish boy; I think this may be obvious.


Really just an introversion thing, though. Extroverts wouldn't have this hangup, as meeting and establishing connections with new people would provide excitement/stimulation rather than stress. 

I've always leaned more towards a single romance, of course (considering my type it's pretty hard to have any other preference), but try to be open minded to ideas of more fun flingy type interactions. One doesn't need to be a Se-dom to enjoy taking vacations there.


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## MarioAndLuigi (Jun 24, 2013)

Btmangan said:


> Really just an introversion thing, though. Extroverts wouldn't have this hangup, as meeting and establishing connections with new people would provide excitement/stimulation rather than stress.
> 
> I've always leaned more towards a single romance, of course (considering my type it's pretty hard to have any other preference), but try to be open minded to ideas of more fun flingy type interactions. One doesn't need to be a Se-dom to enjoy taking vacations there.



INTJs are actually the most loyal of all the introverts. Once we find someone that understands us, we do not relinquish them for anybody else because it's too difficult to find anybody else to understand us. We are like super-introverts, more introverted than the average introvert. One other human companion is plenty, if you find somebody worthwhile to be with, why bother and waste time with anybody else? Surely, knowing too many people will hold me back.

Now, about these extroverts, they tend to love going to bars to meet new people a.k.a. strangers. The only time I go to bars is to listen to live music performances that I like. I have a beer and relax by myself by listening to some good rock music. Then there is all this random chit-chat in the crowd and I can't make out one single convo from another. The only time I engage in convo with a random stranger is if they are sitting by themselves, I observe from afar, play it back in my head, and then if it seems good, I jump in. It does seem like extroverts just skip all my steps and barf the words out extremely fast like they are going to die in less than 5 minutes from now. That could also be a mentality for wanting a short-term relationship; extroverts might die before turning it into a long-term relationship. They think that having a relationship of any duration is better than no relationship; I actually agree with that one statement.


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## MarioAndLuigi (Jun 24, 2013)

The whole hooking up culture seems like food prostitution to me: buy a girl dinner and then get sexual intercourse in return. I like actually forming a true bond with a girl before touching genitals with each other.

I find the whole dating followed by sex culture a little bit weird. I struggle in this department very much. It is just not natural for me to be doing this hook-up thing like everybody else and therefore I question the reason why others do it. Do other students my age actually think that dating will lead to finding a permanent sexual partner leading into marriage after college and getting a lifelong job? It just seems strange and pointless to be doing the dating scene in college if it does not potentially lead to something long-lasting. I see these ads for a certain college dating website all over my campus. It intrigues me to wonder if this is what my fellow student comrades are actually doing. I fail at what others do with such blissful ease. What normally comes so easily and naturally for others is always so difficult for me; that's my social life in a heartbeat.


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

I think that this differs not only through the ages,
But by region!
Here in my country it's a very frowned upon thing,
People don't exactly get the greatest reputation,
And many times people are expelled from social circles due to certain sexual activities(Such as having more partner than one at a time).

In my own culture within the country,
If a guy or girl were to be found out having had several hook ups,
It would be seen as sleazy,
And would be heavily frowned upon,
To the extent that that there could be an intervention!

But there are other cultures within the same country that tolerates many sexual partners at once,
And is seen as the norm,
Rather than the exception!


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