# Thinking preference envy among NFs?



## thedavidhooker (Jan 24, 2011)

In this videos, Mike & I discuss a defense mechanism we call "Tness" envy, which involves a personality type with the "Feeling" function (specifically the Intuitive Feeling function) assuming that they are inferior to the "Thinking" function and attempt to overcompensate by acting like they are T's. 

Personally, I have seen this occur to close NF friends and was wondering if any of you have experienced something similar, either first hand or otherwise. I'm curious to see what others have to say.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I'd like to start out with thanking Mike for mentioning what he thinks about cooperation. For a long time I've felt that the constant urging to 'get out of your comfort zone' and 'stretch yourself', the assumption that you should always focus on your weaknesses, is often counterproductive. I see our natural abilities, both our personalites and our talents, as being gifts and resources which we ought to cultivate. I hate the expectation that everyone should be his own 'one-man band'. First of all, constantly trying to do things you don't have a tallent for can only lead to a lot of demoralizing moments when you keep realising that you're not good at it. And although you may be able to improve, you probably won't become a master at it if it's not really 'where your heart is'. There certainly is some merit and usefullness in trying to improve in areas that don't come naturally to you. However, I think that focusing on that too much leads to disappointment, unnesessary struggles, a rejection of who we really are, and even a loss of our natural wealth (abilities). 

I think it makes much more sense to invest in developing your strengths, and then applying those strengths to helping others who happen to be weak where you are strong, rather than criticizing their inability to be like you and expecting them to somehow develope your stengths aside their own. I honnestly don't really like the word Independance because I think it is a mis-applied ideal which makes people feel justified in not helping others and not accepting differences. I think because there are certain abilities which are recognized as important by our culture, and certain ones that are not, a lot of times those who happen to posess the culturally respected traits misguidedly assume that everyone can and should develop those traits in themselves and opperate independantly of those to whom those things come naturally. They idealse independance because they do not see a personal need for the abilites of others, and do not see why they should apply their personal strengths to helping those who don't have them. This creates a very unfortunate circumstance for those whose natural abilities are not often asked for, while they are constantly required to try and be what they are not. (Equality is another often misinterpreted ideal which leads people to expect others to be the same, rather than different but of equal worth. Instead of seeing different kinds of people and different kinds of roles as being equally important, people seem to try to say that everyone is capable of being everything and are therefore equal. Which leads to the assumption that you're just not trying if you fail at anything). 

I don't think there is anything wrong with needing help with things - it doesn't make you less mature or less valuable as a person. I think a much more ideal state of things could be achieved if people expected to share their personal strengths with others, while having the freedom to focus on their strengths because they knew their weaknesses were covered by someoene else. 

And now swtiching topics, I've definately seen the T-envy. I think it is brought on by a couple different things. 

First of all I think because of stereotypes, and perhaps some slightly misunderstood connotations of the words Thinking and 
Feeling, it is often assumed that Feelers are not very intellectual and are constantly illogical. It is very unfortunate that people assume Thinkers can't feel and Feelers can't think. This is something that many of us grow to resent. Or if we carry the assumption ourselves, but see ourselves as "Smart", we may assume that we must therefore be Thinkers. The underlying assumption that smart people aren't emotionally affected by things, or don't take a 'personal' approach may lead many Fs to feel ashamed of their emotional sensitivity and try to close off that part of themselves in order to gain respect. 

Furthermore there also seems to be an assumption that intellect is also the realm of N, and certainly Ns do tend to gravitate toward the discussion of theories and enjoy seeking deeper understanding. Thus there may be extra pressure for the NF to put aside his feelings in order to live up to the cultural expectations of an intellectual. I'm not saying that other types are not intellectual, but that society's stereotypical vision of an intellectual is an NT which, because it isn't completely accurate, leads to confusion and problems for those of other types who are intellectual/schollarly and find themselves constantly being expected to be an NT when they are not. 

Even NFs who accept and appreciate their F-ness, may find themselves fairly frequently compelled to defend their ability to understand things and think rationally, particularly in intellectual circles, because they feel underappreciated (and not genuinely 'seen') by others who write off their ideas and thoughts based on the assumption that they are illogical and unimportant because they came from a Feeler. Sometimes it can seem as though Thinkers automatically switch off their ears when a Feeler opens their mouth, which we certainly don't appreciate. (Maybe Thinker's feel like we do the same to them when they speak? I don't know). I think many NFs may feel the need to frequently remind people that they aren't incapable of clear thought and that Logic doesn't belong exclusively to the Thinkers. This may appear to others as if the NF is claiming (or petending) to be an NT. 

Another thing which may cause Feeler's to envy Ts is when they feel overwhelmed by their emotions and don't know how to deal with them. They may wish they could just turn them off and not have to bother with them. Ignoring feelings isn't going to make them go away though, so attempts to shut off emotion tend to be futile. They also make the mistake of assuming that Ts actually don't feel as strongly, or simply don't have emotions. I don't think this is the case. I think the difference lies much more in how we deal with emotions, and the level of importance we ascribe to them. Ts may appear less emotionally affected by things when there is just as much feeling going on inside them which they perhaps understand less clearly than a Feeler. I can't immagine that this actually makes things easier. I think it probably is true, however, that Ts find fewer things to trigger strong emotions, and that certainly can look appealing to an F who is feeling tired of dealing with emotions. 

Unfortunately I think there are many NFs who, bacause of ongoing negative feelings, idealise not having feelings, thereby fixating upon a futile hope - that all their problems would be solved if they could just stop feeling so much. I don't think this would actually solve their problems, and I think it's sad how many seem to loath and resent being what they are. (So cuddles to all of you out there who are feeling hoplessly mired in dark feelings, I wish I could make you all feel better and help you find new appreciation for your feeling side)

A little theory I have is that perhaps because Ns tend to spend a lot of time looking inwards at the intangible, dwelling on thoughts and ideas more than paying attention to things around them, when Feeling is coupled with N it can lead to getting really stuck in a 'feeling loop.' It would seem logical that if you're more focused on thinking about stuff, you would be more likely to brood over things. Rather than constantly taking in new information from the world around you and having feelings arrise from them, I think the intuitive feeler turns his attention to his thoughts, and oh! there's this feeling, so he thinks about it, and keeps thinking about it. It colors his entire inner world of ideas, directing the thoughts to run in accordance with the feeling. So the NF has trouble getting out of the feeling. It seems like for many of us, we have to make ourselves focus outward for a time, do something else, interact with someone else, re-orient our attention into our eyes or hands, or whatever in order to break the brooding loop of feeling-thoughts we get stuck in. I'm just theorizing here, but it would seem to me that a Sensing Feeler would find it a lot easier to be distracted from focusing on _one_ feeling because of their natural inclination to engage the world around them - which is not sitting under a cloud of emotion. They can see that the sun is shining. They can be more easily stimulated by various experiences and their surroundings which can help evoke new and different feelings. For example, it would be my guess that stepping away from a situation that was making them feel upset, perhaps going for a walk through a petty park or something, would be very likely to play upon their emotions and get them feeling better. Whereas, it seems very likely that leaving an upsetting situation and going for a walk, an NF would just continue to brood over it, completely oblivious to the surroundings. Instead immagining the people in his mind and composing rants and verbal responces, a million words flying around in his brain. What do you think? Does this sound like your experience? What about you SFs? 

I think society seems to have a bit of a double standard concerning T and F-ness. It seems like, when you're happy, when things are good you're supposed to be like an F - getitng excited or sentimental and really showing your feelings. But when you're unhappy you're supposed to deal with your problems in a more Thinking way - just get over it, don't let it influence you, and particulaly in the case of anger, make logical arguments. When you're happy emotional outbursts are expected, but emotional outbursts of anger are viewed as illegitimate. Logical aguments for why something is wrong are acceptible, but not being very moved by sentimental moments in a romantic relationhsip is seen as being cold and dull. However, there is a slight bias, in that the stoic Thinker with their understated expression, while they may be teased as not really enjoying life, is still somewhat respected, while the tearstained or reddened face of the hurt or angry Feeler is generally seen only as weak and ridiculous. This social bias I think can make it hard for Feelers to accept themselves. They may feel like everyone is telling them they ought to be less emotional.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Great video guys, but I take issue with a few points in it.

-First of all that "Tness envy" is really a widespread issue here. I was raised by an INTP, and surrounded in my life by an ENTP and an INTP. As a result, my Ti is very strong. I am one of many INFJs who consider themselves to be right on the border between T and F, because of the strength of their Ti. There's been more than a couple threads on it. Many INFJs can switch to Ti at will. 

There are some situations where I know my gut "Fe reaction" is going to be problematic in a particular setting, so I decide to go for my Ti. I would call that ability so much confusion or envy, rather than pragmatism.

My experience with Ti hasn't be so much draining, as it's been enlightening. I have had the pleasure of exploring many concepts using my Ti, including a minor in philosophy, Fe wouldn't have gotten me half as far. I welcome the new perspectives, new insights as a way to help me see my world from two perspectives.

Also, in a sense, Ti enhances Fe. Since Fe looks at concepts like "fairness" and "justice", my Ni/Ti can help "Search the meanings of the words" so that my emotional reactions come from a much more-reasoned set of ethical criteria, honed to a sharper edge by critical Ti contemplation.


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## Michail (Jan 28, 2011)

no I like my ethics just fine.  Mybe it's an overcompensation for everybody thinking T-types are better or whatever but I find that everybody says "objective" like its this great thing and "subjective" like its a horrible monster without realizing everything everybody does is basically subjective?? when you think a thought, that thought is either an original thought (subjective) or an interpretation of your surrounding environment (also subjective) whether or not you think it's "logic" or a "fact" people still have to interpret what they think is true and false. thinkers basically interpret what they believe to be "data" and "the truth" but the truth varies between different people. so to me it is like feeling types just acknowledge this easier and embrace it.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Michail said:


> Mybe it's an overcompensation for everybody thinking T-types are better or whatever


I can guarantee you that if I got to chose to be any type, I would chose INFJ any day of the week. 

I just don't see the problem with having a strong Ti. It's a very useful tool. Do I want to be dependent on some INTP/ISTP every time I need to drop my ethics and do some objective reasoning? Nah... I'd rather be able to do it myself.


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## Michail (Jan 28, 2011)

oh I was just kidding lol. Like how people develop super-ego to compensate for how everybody hates them. idk I get the feeling that a lot of people _think_ that Feeler types esp nfs are inferior because they are more "illogical" or over emotional or cry all the time and whatnot. to me I feel like there is nothing wrong with being a feeler at all nor does it exclude us from using logic. the label of feeler to me is a lot misleading anyway. That is what I mean, I really like being a feeler and I like being an INFJ, and I prefer it over being a thinker mostly cause I can't imagine being a thinker. But I know the reverse is true as well so there you have it. but to me it is almost like even though I can't imagine it, i still don't think there is that huge of a divide between feeler and thinker because we both look at things subjectively, we just interpret different information. Feelers interpret their own ethics, thinkers interpret what they think to be true. and by extension, the ethics of a feeler are what feelers believe to be true as well. so we're really not TOTALLY that different .It's just feelers are also "in touch with their emotions" whereas Thinkers are stereotypically not.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

I know I wish I was a Feeler a lot. So it works both ways.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

nevermore said:


> I know I wish I was a Feeler a lot. So it works both ways.


If you keep reaching out for it, you will be able to explore F passion which flows through each and every one of us. 

My father is an INTP... and he is the most soulful man I know... in many ways... he has inspired me to be more soulful. An INTP helping an INFJ tap into his own soul... ironic, isn't it?


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> If you keep reaching out for it, you will be able to explore F passion which flows through each and every one of us.
> 
> My father is an INTP... and he is the most soulful man I know... in many ways... he has inspired me to be more soulful. An INTP helping an INFJ tap into his own soul... ironic, isn't it?


I'm pretty passionate and soulful as it is...I'd actually describe myself as a romantic. But I find it easy to get overwhelmed by negative feelings and spin powerlessly in them. Fear I lack the ability to deal with relational issues so I just retreat and watch my life come to pieces. I'm afraid of my Fe to a degree...like if I'll use it I'll mess up, so I just play everything extra safe and ending up losing relationships and just missing out on a lot of life generally. I would imagine F's find it easier to deal with negative emotions, heal interpersonal wounds, and just be less paranoid around people. I've always been baffled at how so many F's wish to be T's...having good emotional/interpersonal intelligence is a lot more useful than having a good command of logic I think.:frustrating: It's the emotional wounds that sting the most.


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## Socrates (Feb 1, 2010)

Fi is my third function, according to tests. What does I win? :tongue:


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Socrates said:


> Fi is my third function, according to tests. What does I win? :tongue:


The IxTJ prize?


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## spook (Dec 16, 2009)

Hm I have wondered whether my life would be easier if i were more T, especially since I am also enneagram four, most of my problems are due constantly dwelling on negative feelings and no rational solution or sensory walk in the park can really prevent it. But I know that as a T I would probably have other weaknesses to envy Fs over.
Aelthwyn, that was a brilliant post I totally agree. There are double standards and society has a positive emotions / logical approach to achieving goals associated with that- bias. We either feel too much or we don’t feel enough. In reality no one can be expected to be all things to all people. I’ve felt a lot of pressure to change growing up and I am fed up as hell with it. People are always projecting their own standards onto others but the fact that we get defensive when others do the same to us should be a pretty good indication that it’s not the most constructive way to gauge potential. They can only develop those strengths at their own pace. If you force it, you could receive a solid dose of defensive shadow backlash.

btw Mike and David seem like friendly/cool people to hang out with


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## Bunker Man (Jan 4, 2011)

Look at it this way; at least you don't have to be envious of N. You wouldn't BELIEVE the lack of creativity all the Ss I know don't have.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Bunker Man said:


> Look at it this way; at least you don't have to be envious of N. You wouldn't BELIEVE the lack of creativity all the Ss I know don't have.


I love how even your comfort is a variation on "NT's are the best"...


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## ertertwert (Jun 5, 2010)

I can only speak from the INFJ perspective but it seems that we grow up feeling dumber than everyone else. Our Ti is noticeably slower than our peers and we become hurt easily. It's easy to assume we got the short end of the stick. But over time Ni builds and builds and never seems to become filled. With more knowledge the less work Ti has to do before Ni gives it the answer. Not to mention that Ti does become more efficient around 25-30 (turning 25 and can attest to this).


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Bunker Man said:


> Look at it this way; at least you don't have to be envious of N. You wouldn't BELIEVE the lack of creativity all the Ss I know don't have.


......so...is 'don't' intentionally put here, or is it a miscommunication? 
"the lack-of-creativity[uncreativity] they _don't_ have" -doesn't that mean they don't lack creativity?
That is to say, is this a sarcastic remark indicating that Ss are quite creative but the stereotype is that they are not and therefore often unfoundedly envy Ns? 

Or have you experienced many Ss who really aren't creative? 

Just wondering....

(personally I know some very creative SPs, but on the other hand for most of my life I've been "the creative one" that everyone expects to provide them with ideas or do art for them - get's rather irritating.)


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## darksoul (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm so envious of feelers that I position myself in the midst of them, just so I can pretend to be one for a little while. roud:


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

darksoul said:


> I'm so envious of feelers that I position myself in the midst of them, just so I can pretend to be one for a little while. roud:


Now you saying that makes me want to hug you! (maybe our Feeler envy and pity at our own Feeler envy is somehow turning us into Feelers?)


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## Hastings (Jan 8, 2011)

darksoul said:


> I'm so envious of feelers that I position myself in the midst of them, just so I can pretend to be one for a little while. roud:


What is it that you envy? Just curious.


The debate of being focued on your strengths or trying to be well-rounded is pretty complicated. Mike argued for reaching interdependence by people complementing eachother through using relationships, which I think makes sense. However, there are also instances where you might want to be able to stand on your own or at least prepared to use your weaker functions. I am specifically thinking about introvertedness: introversion is in itself neither good nor bad and can offer something a certain quality to a group dynamic. But it's easy to see that it might become a hindrance in social relations and that pushing yourself to be more E might do yourself a big favor in the right circumstances. Similarily, I think it might be a good idea to focus your T so that at least you can use it as a "crutch" when times call for it and use your natural F as a given strength in those other times that call for your highest potential.


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## clawsthatcatch (Feb 1, 2011)

I think that NFs _should_ work on their T-ness. Now, NTs should also work on relating with other people and understanding the need for compassion in making decisions. Emotion to the point of irrationality is bad. Thinking without compassion is also bad. 

(I'm probably going to get laughed at in this forum for taking this position, but I really see compassion in terms of rationality and I believe that a person isn't fully rational if he or she's not compassionate.)

I also want to note that I have a good INFJ friend who is one of the smartest people I know, and he is extremely rational. So, I think a lot of these notions that NFs are all over-emotional hippies is wrong. Though if you are an over-emotional hippie, I do encourage you to work on your T, just as I encourage the cold arrogant jerks to work on their F.


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