# greetings from an inquiring mind



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> Ne is fascinating to me, you could be looking at a row of trees and suddenly come up with some outlandish idea while I sit there and laugh, trying to put into words why I don't feel like it wouldn't work (and how potentially dangerous it probably is!).


"Trees"? What are "trees"? We see forests. Never trees. Are you sure you're not an ISTP? They see "trees".

And Ni is fascinating to me. It's the most intriguing function. But not because it's mystical, like some people say (especially INFJs). But because it reminds me of Ti. A subconscious Ti.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> I don't doubt that. And that wouldn't be Don Quixote in your avatar?


It most certainly would. Your powers of observation have served you well.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> It most certainly would. Your powers of observation have served you well.


Yeah, I knew my eyes would come in handy someday. And true to your avatar, I see you've ventured far and wide across this board and posted >5000 messages! What kinds of "adventures" have you had here? What's the best discussion you've ever had? Where do you suggest a novice like me should start his own journey in PC land?


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> I wouldn't expect anything less from an upside-down ISTP.
> 
> So ENFJ, don't tell me you do the door slam, too? I thought that was just an INFJ thing?


I do but it's not exactly a door slam, more like a mirrored door slam.

It pains me to let people go but when someone crosses the line repeatedly, I tend to act particularly offputting. It isn't always intentional (well no, it is but I try to convince myself otherwise) but I do my best to push and guilt trip the other person into doing the doorslam themselves so that I could convince myself there was no other way and that I had to.

Unlike INFJs though, my door still remains open.
After time and self judging have done their course, if I feel like that person might have changed or there is a chance for things to evolve for the best, I'll probably be the one walking back into their lives or welcoming them back with a smile and an apology. Of course keeping guarded and watching their steps.

And of course I'm vain enough to think they'd love to have me back.

Another thing I do is the pre-emptive doorslam.
If I feel like it will never work, I don't let them it to begin with.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> Yeah, I knew my eyes would come in handy someday. And true to your avatar, I see you've ventured far and wide across this board and posted >5000 messages! What kinds of "adventures" have you had here? What's the best discussion you've ever had? Where do you suggest a novice like me should start his own journey in PC land?


I tend to paint with a broad brush, you may find greater interest in a more in depth approach. I go where my interests of the moment suit me; I'm not certain that would work as well for you. 

I've had so many really good discussions, it might be hard for me to specify just one. 

You might start with the INTP sub-folder. If you're a bit more adventurous, you might delve into the Enneagram folders. The Psychology folder, and the Sex/Relationships folder are also quite entertaining.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> I do but it's not exactly a door slam, more like a mirrored door slam.
> 
> It pains me to let people go but when someone crosses the line repeatedly, I tend to act particularly offputting. It isn't always intentional (well no, it is but I try to convince myself otherwise) but I do my best to push and guilt trip the other person into doing the doorslam themselves so that I could convince myself there was no other way and that I had to.
> 
> ...


I'm sure they do love to have you back. You seem very conflicted even when the other person is at fault and had it coming. I suppose that's your Fe not wanting to hurt the other. My Fe is nowhere near as well developed as yours, but I also don't like hurting people when I know something I do will hurt them. I can be callous when I don't know. But when I can see it, then it can be hard. 

You know, I've never known an ENFJ in real life. I've only read and heard about how empathic and caring they are. You definitely don't sound like an ISTP, not even an upside-down one. I guess you are an ENFJ, wavy. 

Can I ask you something? I've read that ENFJs really like to help others, so much so, it becomes their goal, the thing that gives them the most satisfaction. And when people they try to help fail, they really feel disappointed, even let down. Are you and ENFJs you know like this? I can see the first part in myself sometimes. When I think someone I care about may be in trouble, I really want to help and I try. But I don't see it as a goal like my own goals. I just want to help. But I can see why you would feel like you need to help. It must be hard feeling pulled in these directions. I can't imagine being let down, though. Even when I help, I still think it's the other person's life and I'm not responsible for it. I can only do my best and that's all.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I tend to paint with a broad brush, you may find greater interest in a more in depth approach. I go where my interests of the moment suit me;


Spoken like a true ENTP. Btw, have you read Don Quixote? I've heard it's a true NF novel. I'm curious why an NT would be taken by it? Or is it just the idea of the great adventure?


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> Spoken like a true ENTP. Btw, have you read Don Quixote? I've heard it's a true NF novel. I'm curious why an NT would be taken by it? Or is it just the idea of the great adventure?


I have two editions of the book. One digital, and one hardback. I have read it several times. I enjoy the playful humor of the work. Miguel Cervantes was a clever writer for his time. There's something almost _Shakespearean_ about the work. I also fancy myself as sort of someone who sees the world as it is, and fantasizes about how it might be better (so of course I'm a fan of Science Fiction and Fantasy as well). A good storyteller can capture my attention as a deer in headlights. It has always been thus. I was a hyperactive child, but tell me a story, and I'd sit still for hours. When I first learned to read, it was illuminating for me. Knowledge and imagination became my constant companions. Making friends came later on.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ShoreWaves said:


> Oh no, no, no, you've misunderstood. I wasn't performing the (in)famous NFJ doorslam on your answers, I was just busy skyping and pontificating haha.
> 
> I actually enjoy INTPs, their bluntness can be super refreshing (unless I have to rein them in, especially those cheeky ENTPs :laughing.
> 
> ...


We do enjoy being just a little bit cheeky. It helps us formulate better ideas. roud:

I'm fascinated by Ne myself. It tends to dominate the way I operate. I make good guesses, and adjust/adapt quite well.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

@ae1905

You might also find the complexities of Socionics a challenge (I find it a bit too complex, sort of like quantum mechanics on steroids).


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I have two editions of the book. One digital, and one hardback. I have read it several times. I enjoy the playful humor of the work. Miguel Cervantes was a clever writer for his time. There's something almost _Shakespearean_ about the work. I also fancy myself as sort of someone who sees the world as it is, and fantasizes about how it might be better (so of course I'm a fan of Science Fiction and Fantasy as well). A good storyteller can capture my attention as a deer in headlights. It has always been thus. I was a hyperactive child, but tell me a story, and I'd sit still for hours. When I first learned to read, it was illuminating for me. Knowledge and imagination became my constant companions. Making friends came later on.


You know, it was an ENFP who called it an NF novel. He also said it was his favourite. Another Ne dom! I'm going to guess the story is a tale of the random adventures of the hero, like Dickens' Pickwick Papers. Don Quixote may have been the earliest example of that type of story, at least in a novel form, although you could argue Homer's Odysseus was an even earlier story in that form, but that was a long epic poem and not a novel. I'm curious: what about the book is "almost Shakespearean"? I love Shakespeare.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> We do enjoy being just a little bit cheeky. It helps us formulate better ideas. roud:
> 
> I'm fascinated by Ne myself. It tends to dominate the way I operate. I make good guesses, and adjust/adapt quite well.


Yes, I'm rather fond of Ne, too. But Ni is more mysterious, I suppose because it's less used.


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> I'm sure they do love to have you back. You seem very conflicted even when the other person is at fault and had it coming. I suppose that's your Fe not wanting to hurt the other. My Fe is nowhere near as well developed as yours, but I also don't like hurting people when I know something I do will hurt them. I can be callous when I don't know. But when I can see it, then it can be hard.
> 
> You know, I've never known an ENFJ in real life. I've only read and heard about how empathic and caring they are. You definitely don't sound like an ISTP, not even an upside-down one. I guess you are an ENFJ, wavy.
> 
> Can I ask you something? I've read that ENFJs really like to help others, so much so, it becomes their goal, the thing that gives them the most satisfaction. And when people they try to help fail, they really feel disappointed, even let down. Are you and ENFJs you know like this? I can see the first part in myself sometimes. When I think someone I care about may be in trouble, I really want to help and I try. But I don't see it as a goal like my own goals. I just want to help. But I can see why you would feel like you need to help. It must be hard feeling pulled in these directions. I can't imagine being let down, though.


Thank you! 
Life is a "choose your own adventure book" to me, I'll be happy if it happens.

I'd say that your Fe is developed enough but many NTPs tend to struggle between their blunt and teasing nature and the strong feeling of guilt they get when the other person is actually hurt and Fe whacks the back of their heads. It's quite typical.
But correct me if I'm wrong, refusing to apologize first is more of a stereotypical ENTP thing, right?

Maybe ENFJs are so hard to spot because of their chameleon nature? Being a 3w2, I often feel like putting up a facade and showing only selected sides of my being, especially towards people whom I don't feel comfortable around. The ISTP part was a total joke. Just fooling around with my dual type haha.

Of course you can ask.

I feel a strong urge to help others and tend to them, it comes from within and I never question it. If I see someone having trouble or needing a friendly ear, you know I will be there, trying to figure out the best way I could help them and doing most of the talking to let them feel secure and comfortable. I've been told that I have a way with inviting people to talk about themselves, even the ones who have trouble to do so or deliberately act "unfeeling" and I think it depends mostly on the fact that I genuinely _love_ talking to people, giving advice and inspiring them to be at their best.
Becoming an inspiration is what I really want the most from life. Rather than giving one-on-one support I'd like to be someone able to help and guide many people through my actions and words and this is one of the reasons I'm extremely ambitious and I live for recognition. Yes, I want to be loved and admired but I also want to become a rolemodel, someone able to make a change.

When I fail, I feel crushed.
Not being able to help someone or losing a friend, especially someone dear to me, makes blame myself for a long time and it never really goes away. I keep thinking of all the things I could have said and done and I didn't. I also tend to feel other people's emotions before they do, being around sad people makes me incredibly sad as well.

Of course, I'm also manipulative as hell and I have what my friends call "Jesus complex".
I have to solve everyone's problems and I have to be the _best one_at it, I need constant attention and gratitude and my martyr complex is something you really don't want to see. And even when I tend to overshare, like I'm doing right now, I honestly share very little of who I actually am.

But yes, I feel like I'm being pulled in so many directions at the same time.
I can't be there for _everyone _but God, I want to!


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> You know, it was an ENFP who said it was an NF novel. He also said it was his favourite. Another Ne dom! I'm going to guess the story is a tale of the random adventures of the hero, like Dickens' Pickwick Papers. Don Quixote may have been the earliest example of that type of story, at least in a novel form, although you could argue Homer's Odysseus was an even earlier story in that form, but that was a long epic poem and not a novel. I'm curious: what about the book is "almost Shakespearean"? I love Shakespeare.


I've read Homer as well. It may very well be that his works inspired the creation of modern written language in the West. 

Cervantes has a playful sense of humor that I find similar to that of Chaucer and Shakespeare. A certain amount of irreverence for established authority is woven into their works. 

Charles Dickens's works are more modern. They are a response to the dehumanizing affects of industrialization in the 19th Century.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I've read Homer as well. It may very well be that his works inspired the creation of modern written language in the West.
> 
> Cervantes has a playful sense of humor that I find similar to that of Chaucer and Shakespeare. A certain amount of irreverence for established authority is woven into their works.
> 
> Charles Dickens's works are more modern. They are a response to the dehumanizing affects of industrialization in the 19th Century.


Yes, Dickens' later novels were. His earlier ones, like Pickwick are more humorous stories, though they're still informed by some of Dickens' own experiences, for example, his time in a blacking shop when he was only 12 or so.

Does Cervantes also play with language the same way Shakespeare does?


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> Yes, Dickens' later novels were. His earlier ones, like Pickwick are more humorous stories, though they're still informed by some of Dickens' own experiences, for example, his time in a blacking shop when he was only 12 or so.
> 
> Does Cervantes also play with language the same way Shakespeare does?


In a way that may not always translate well from Spanish to English, I would say yes.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> I'd say that your Fe is developed enough but many NTPs tend to struggle between their blunt and teasing nature and the strong feeling of guilt they get when the other person is actually hurt and Fe whacks the back of their heads. It's quite typical.
> But correct me if I'm wrong, refusing to apologize first is more of a stereotypical ENTP thing, right?
> 
> Becoming an inspiration is what I really want the most from life. Rather than giving one-on-one support I'd like to be someone able to help and guide many people through my actions and words and this is one of the reasons I'm extremely ambitious and I live for recognition. Yes, I want to be loved and admired but I also want to become a rolemodel, someone able to make a change.
> ...


Yeah, I've been "smacked" a few times. And not just figuratively, I'm sorry to say. You'll have to ask an ENTP about their stubbornness. I'm quick to fess up when I see the error of my ways. In fact, sometimes I apologize when no harm was done and people are surprised. Those are usually other NTs.

Living for recognition is a Fe thing. I have some of that, too. I'm guessing you really admire people like Oprah and Tony Robbins who inspire and help many people. Does it ever bother you that you also want to do it for the recognition? That it isn't a completely selfless thing? I know I feel some guilt that I want recognition.

And tell me more about the manipulation! I'm sure you know that's part of the reputation of ENFJs. I'm impressed you admit it up front. And what is this "Jesus complex"? It may surprise you but I don't believe I have that. Is that what you mean by needing attention and gratitude? Because Jesus was a selfless figure, right? He didn't need attention and expressions of gratitude, did he?


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> In a way that may not always translate well from Spanish to English, I would say yes.


Thanks for sharing that. I'm going to look at the book. Is there a particular translation that is better than others?


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> Thanks for sharing that. I'm going to look at the book. Is there a particular translation that is better than others?


Edith Grossman - best of the modern translations

Tobias Smollett - best of the older translations


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Edith Grossman - best of the modern translations
> 
> Tobias Smollett - best of the older translations


Thanks!  And good luck with those windmills. And if I see Dulcinea, I'll give you a shout.


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Yeah, I've been "smacked" a few times. And not just figuratively, I'm sorry to say. You'll have to ask an ENTP about their stubbornness. I'm quick to fess up when I see the error of my ways. In fact, sometimes I apologize when no harm was done and people are surprised. Those are usually other NTs.
> 
> Living for recognition is a Fe thing. I have some of that, too. I'm guessing you really admire people like Oprah and Tony Robbins who inspire and help many people. Does it ever bother you that you also want to do it for the recognition? That it isn't a completely selfless thing? I know I feel some guilt that I want recognition.
> 
> And tell me more about the manipulation! I'm sure you know that's part of the reputation of ENFJs. I'm impressed you admit it up front. And what is this "Jesus complex"? It may surprise you but I don't believe I have that. Is that what you mean by needing attention and gratitude? Because Jesus was a selfless figure, right? He didn't need attention and expressions of gratitude, did he?


Me and Oprah actually share the same MBTI and tritype combination, I admire her a lot!

I do feel guilty about how intensely I want to be adored and recognized.
Obviously I don't act only out of self recognition seeking but just a tiny drop of it makes me question myself and feel dishonest. 
When I want to achieve something concerning my personal goals, I don't mind but if there are other people involved, I always question myself whether I'm being too self centered and how I could adapt my own needs to people's expectations of me.

I'm admitting it up front because, well, it's just passing words on an introduction thread and I can't paint myself too good, right?  Of course if I were to perform it on you, you'd eat out of my palm but why should I? You're lovely and I save it for special occasions.

Jesus Complex is what I've described in my previous post, the desperate need to keep a finger in every cake and reach out to everyone I feel like needs some support. I also tend to be protective of 'unpopular' people because I feel bad for them. Some people see this attitude as fake and it's quite hurtful.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

@ae1905, @ShoreWaves. 

It might be interesting to find out what our new INTP friend's enneatype is...would it not?


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> @ae1905, @ShoreWaves.
> 
> It might be interesting to find out what our new INTP friend's enneatype is...would it not?


Ha! I've looked at that and am pretty sure I know what it is. Thank you very much. I'm actually sceptical of many of these typologies since the science is not there to support them. But MBTI does seem to describe pretty well many people, so I accept it as a heuristic or an operationally useful "theory" that has yet to be confirmed.


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

@tanstaafl28 Absolutely!


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> I'm admitting it up front because, well, it's just passing words on an introduction thread and I can't paint myself too good, right?  Of course if I were to perform it on you, you'd eat out of my palm but why should I? You're lovely and I save it for special occasions.


This is what I wonder about. You say that tongue-in-cheek, but you're also pretty confident you could have me "eating out of the palm of your hand"! But I wonder if you could? You do have Fe and I'm sure you can read people, even someone like me you've never met in person. But I'm a thinker first. And if I _know_ you may try to manipulate me, I don't think you would be able to do it. This is the thing that I am most curious about with ENFJs. That reputation intrigues me.


----------



## StunnedFox (Dec 20, 2013)

@ae1905 - if you haven't worked it out yet, click the emotionless :| face underneath a person's avatar to view their type.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

StunnedFox said:


> @ae1905 - if you haven't worked it out yet, click the emotionless :| face underneath a person's avatar to view their type.


thanks. You know, I'm going to take it as a challenge and try to figure out people from their posts.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> Ha! I've looked at that and am pretty sure I know what it is. Thank you very much. I'm actually sceptical of many of these typologies since the science is not there to support them. But MBTI does seem to describe pretty well many people, so I accept it as a heuristic or an operationally useful "theory" that has yet to be confirmed.



MBTI is concerned with four conscious preferences that have more to do with how we choose to deal with the outer world, whereas, the Enneagram is concerned with our unconscious Jungian archetypes and its goal is more internally driven. Once one has a greater grasp of the self, one becomes better at both understanding, and helping others.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> MBTI is concerned with four conscious preferences that have more to do with how we choose to deal with the outer world, whereas, the Enneagram is concerned with our unconscious Jungian archetypes and its goal is more internally driven. Once one has a greater grasp of the self, one becomes better at both understanding, and helping others.


I've looked at the enneagram and can guess what my type is. For NTs, it's not that hard. I can also guess the so-called tri-types.


----------



## StunnedFox (Dec 20, 2013)

ae1905 said:


> thanks. You know, I'm going to take it as a challenge and try to figure out people from their posts.


Could be interesting. If you haven't checked mine, I'd be curious to know the type impression you've formed of me thus far...


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> I've looked at the enneagram and can guess what my type is. For NTs, it's not that hard. I can also guess the so-called tri-types.


I would guess you're core is in the mind center (as is my own).


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

StunnedFox said:


> Could be interesting. If you haven't checked mine, I'd be curious to know the type impression you've formed of me thus far...


Haha! You got me there. I need a bit more info before it becomes more than a wild-ass guess. But here goes. First, you're looking in on a newbie thread; only an extrovert would do that. Second, you're trying to be helpful, so you wouldn't be an ENTJ, ESTJ, ESTP or probably an ENTP. Your tagline at the bottom suggest you are an NF. That would leave ENFJ or ENFP. But this doesn't sit with your avatar which suggests an introvert like INFJ or INFP.

So I will guess ENFP or INFP.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I would guess you're core is in the mind center (as is my own).


5


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Haha! You got me there. I need a bit more info before it becomes more than a wild-ass guess. But here goes. First, you're looking in on a newbie thread; only an extrovert would do that. Second, you're trying to be helpful, so you wouldn't be an ENTJ, ESTJ, ESTP or probably an ENTP. Your tagline at the bottom suggest you are an NF. That would leave ENFJ or ENFP. But this doesn't sit with your avatar which suggests an introvert like INFJ or INFP.
> 
> So I will guess ENFP or INFP.


I just checked. ISTJ, huh? Yeah, that would make sense. I shouldn't have eliminated the introverts so quickly. But I wouldn't have thought egalitarianism was a STJ value.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> I also tend to be protective of 'unpopular' people because I feel bad for them. Some people see this attitude as fake and it's quite hurtful.


I understand this feeling perfectly. I've always felt it myself. You'll probably laugh when you read my belief I'd be able to resist your influence because I'm a "thinker". You probably think that's precisely the reason I could be manipulated. I can already sense the way you have with people. You may be right. You may be wrong. But it's late. And maybe we'll cross paths another time on another thread. It's a small world on PC. I'm sure I'll sense your presence somewhere down the road....


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> This is what I wonder about. You say that tongue-in-cheek, but you're also pretty confident you could have me "eating out of the palm of your hand"! But I wonder if you could? You do have Fe and I'm sure you can read people, even someone like me you've never met in person. But I'm a thinker first. And if I _know_ you may try to manipulate me, I don't think you would be able to do it. This is the thing that I am most curious about with ENFJs. That reputation intrigues me.


It's not just Fe, it's the combination of Fe and Ni.
I tend to be quite skilled at reading people and figuring out what kind of person they are and what motivates them, what makes them feel a certain way. I combine this with what my mind is whispering in my ear, most of the time I'm so prepared for every possible consequence of my actions that I instinctively know what to say or how to turn an awkward moment upside down.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> It's not just Fe, it's the combination of Fe and Ni.
> I tend to be quite skilled at reading people and figuring out what kind of person they are and what motivates them, what makes them feel a certain way. I combine this with what my mind is whispering in my ear, most of the time I'm so prepared for every possible consequence of my actions that I instinctively know what to say or how to turn an awkward moment upside down.


Indeed, you do. I also realised after I wrote that that I forgot to include Ni. I wonder if you can even distinguish between your Fe and Ni when you read people? How do these two functions work together? And when your "mind is whispering in your ear", is that Ni or Fe? Etc. And I wonder how often your initial impressions of people are right? I don't imagine you are never wrong. What kinds of people give you trouble? And why?


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> Me and Oprah actually share the same MBTI and tritype combination, I admire her a lot!
> 
> I'm admitting it up front because, well, it's just passing words on an introduction thread and I can't paint myself too good, right?  Of course if I were to perform it on you, you'd eat out of my palm but why should I? You're lovely and I save it for special occasions.


I mentioned Oprah but some people believe Hitler was also an ENFJ. I've never been influenced by people like Oprah. But I wonder if I could have been influenced by Hitler? There were certainly many NTs who came under his spell. I like to think I could resist. But I've never been tested that way. All my influences have been thinkers and writers. No ENFJ types. Of course, I've listened to talks given by ENFJs and I can see how they can be very persuasive. I'm aware of my own reaction to their suasion. But I also think about their message. And if it doesn't make sense, then ultimately I won't be convinced. And even if I am convinced, I'll see it as just another insight or bunch of information, no different than something I might read in the paper or see on TV. I can't see myself being persuaded to change my life as Hitler changed the lives of his followers. But I could be wrong.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

In the end, I don't think you can convince someone to do or believe something they are not already inclined to do or believe. NTs, like others, followed Hitler because they were already inclined to believe his message. They already wanted to believe. And that, it seems to me, is the power of people who can read others. They know what people already believe. They know what people want to believe. So they nudge people in the directions they're already leaning. This can mean moving people in good directions. It can also mean moving people in bad directions since people have this potential, too. My belief is that the more self-aware a person is, the more difficult it is to influence him since he will be conscious of the external influence and will be able to assess it and reject it. Or, at least, consciously incorporate it into his own system of thoughts and beliefs so it is genuinely his and not something foreign.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

So if you want to manipulate someone, the easiest way is to tell him something he already believes and let him think he is acting on his own convictions. Tell him what he wants to hear. Reinforce his prejudice. He won't even notice he's being manipulated.


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

@ae1905 

It's not easy to translate it into words.
Fe helps me understand what kind of person I have in front of me, how they are feeling and what makes them tick. 
If someone is putting up a strong facade to conceal sadness or worry, I tend to notice it right away. 
Ni translates all of this information into patterns that unconsciously help me understand what's the best course of action I could take, what simply feels right and how can I make a certain someone like me.

Hitler was definitely an extremely unhealthy NFJ type.
Whether he was an introvert or an extrovert I cannot tell for sure, I should look at how comfortable he was giving public speeches.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> @ae1905
> 
> It's not easy to translate it into words.
> Fe helps me understand what kind of person I have in front of me, how they are feeling and what makes them tick.
> ...


Hello wavy! Funny meeting you here.

And yes, some say Hitler was an extrovert because he was always surrounded by people. Others say he needed to be alone at times, maybe to recharge. But you do think an INFJ could give moving speeches to huge crowds if he worked himself up to it? That's not normally thought of as the introverts' talent. I can't think of a great natural speaker who is an introvert. The greatest speaker of our generation is probably Bill Clinton and he's an ESFP by most accounts. In contrast, Hillary, who is probably an INTP, appears cool and wooden. 

Have you given talks to groups of people? Do you read a group in the same way you read individuals? Do you intuit the best way to talk to the group, too? Does the fact you don't get immediate verbal feedback from a group make it more difficult?

Your explanation of Fe-Ni makes sense. I can also sense someone's emotional state from cues he gives, but I'm usually not sure what I should do short of generic responses like reassuring words, etc. 

Do you think INFJs use Fe and Ni in the same way? Do you think ENFJs are better people readers because of dominant Fe?


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Hello wavy! Funny meeting you here.
> 
> And yes, some say Hitler was an extrovert because he was always surrounded by people. Others say he needed to be alone at times, maybe to recharge. But you do think an INFJ could give moving speeches to huge crowds if he worked himself up to it? That's not normally thought of as the introverts' talent. I can't think of a great natural speaker who is an introvert. The greatest speaker of our generation is probably Bill Clinton and he's an ESFP by most accounts. In contrast, Hillary, who is probably an INTP, appears cool and wooden.
> 
> ...


Wow, so many questions!
I'm flattered by your fascination with my type but bear in mind I'm not the representative of it as a whole.
MBTI and the Enneagram are a good tool to judge ourselves and people but it isn't the gospel truth.

I agree that INFJs are more likely to write speeches for someone else and lead from behind the scenes but they still have that special brand of quiet assertiveness that makes them very charming. Hitler started out by writing books and plotting his way up the system so I wouldn't rule out that he ended up being forced to be a speaker once he became a public authority.
And in all truth, in every debate I've seen ENFJs and INFJs keep volleying him towards the other type haha.

Hillary identifies as an INTJ and I can see that, it's a better fit for her.
She has the assertiveness of J types but compared to her husband she's a lot more wooden, obviously.

When I'm teaching or making a speech, I mostly look for signs of interest (I can spot the ones dozing off from miles away) but yes, once I'm done I encourage people to ask questions, often giving them guidelines to make them feel more comfortable.

That's probably because of Ne-Fe, you're more of a brainstormer than a smooth talker. That's perfectly fine, I love Ne passion!

I can't say which type is a better reader, it wouldn't be fair.
Even though they might share a type, two people might have differently developed functions due to various circumstances. Generally INFJs are more insightful while ENFJs are better at communicating with people.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Inquiring minds wanna know, you know!

I see you've had the Hitler debate before! Now, if he were an NT, it'd be a football game with immature ENTJs and INTJs fighting for possession. The man still has his fans. In fact, I had a couple of junior high classmates who adored him. Both NTs.

And, yes, you're right about Hillary. She talks like a J, looks like a J, is too firm and decisive to be a P.

So you are a teacher. I'm not surprised. I looked at one other post from another thread and you have a maturity about you that sets you apart from the younger people here, and you appear to be acting in a guiding role when it is appropriate. You wouldn't happen to teach high school, would you?

The INFJ insightfulness suggests it's the Ni that yields deeper insights than Fe. Your Se probably helps you pick up cues and take advantage of the moment to better communicate with people in real time.

So far, how would you compare your experience here with face-to-face interactions? Is it a lot harder to read people? Or do you find it's still pretty easy from just their messages?


----------



## seasofme (Jun 3, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> Wow, so many questions!
> I'm flattered by your fascination with my type but bear in mind I'm not the representative of it as a whole.
> MBTI and the Enneagram are a good tool to judge ourselves and people but it isn't the gospel truth.
> 
> ...


well hello there


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

@ae1905 

Not personally but I've lurked a few ones.
Most NFs are the opposite! As soon as someone morally vile gets typed as an unhealthy example of their type, they will go through hoops and circles to verify that he doesn't belong with them (though admitting they might). But there are darker NFs who actually love the idea of someone 'evil' joining their ranks, if anything out of curiosity.

I'm not a teacher right now but I've taught to both children and adults and I worked in summer camps.
I actually wish to enroll again in university after an unfortunate situation that set me back, I'm considering various choices but preschool/grade school teacher is always one of my favorites.

Talking online to people has a lot of perks! 
It's easier to encourage conversations, everyone is generally more willing to talk about themselves (especially since it's a personality forum) and there is little to no small talk which makes me extremely grateful. All those people never moving forward past weather or hairstyle talk drive me nuts on the inside!

But of course, it's harder to tell how someone really feels about you. 
We all know that even smiling emoticons don't mean the other person is actually smiling instead of rolling their eyes and it's harder to have a long conversation with people. But learning to decode 'internet moods' isn't too complicated either.

@slytherin 

Hi! It's been a while, isn't it?


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> @ae1905
> 
> Not personally but I've lurked a few ones.
> Most NFs are the opposite! As soon as someone morally vile gets typed as an unhealthy example of their type, they will go through hoops and circles to verify that he doesn't belong with them (though admitting they might). But there are darker NFs who actually love the idea of someone 'evil' joining their ranks, if anything out of curiosity.
> ...


Darker NFs? How would I spot one of those? That would be really interesting.

And you're right about the anonymity making people more forthcoming. People reveal things about themselves just in their choice of avatars and signatures, not to mention their personality types and the myriad details of their thoughts and feelings. I like the fact there are all types of people here and they all want to talk about themselves and/or stuff. It makes learning so easy.

So you prefer to teach the younger kids. I wonder (by now, this shouldn't surprise you), can you detect personality types as easily in young children as you can with adults? Do you think we're born with our types? And I hope you do go back to university and eventually teach. I think someone with your people skills and deep sense of purpose would make a wonderful teacher.


----------



## seasofme (Jun 3, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> @ae1905
> 
> Not personally but I've lurked a few ones.
> Most NFs are the opposite! As soon as someone morally vile gets typed as an unhealthy example of their type, they will go through hoops and circles to verify that he doesn't belong with them (though admitting they might). But there are darker NFs who actually love the idea of someone 'evil' joining their ranks, if anything out of curiosity.
> ...


I know, I missed you ; ) how are you?


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Darker NFs? How would I spot one of those? That would be really interesting.
> 
> And you're right about the anonymity making people more forthcoming. People reveal things about themselves just in their choice of avatars and signatures, not to mention their personality types and the myriad details of their thoughts and feelings. I like the fact there are all types of people here and they all want to talk about themselves and/or stuff. It makes learning so easy.
> 
> So you prefer to teach the younger kids. I wonder (by now, this shouldn't surprise you), can you detect personality types as easily in young children as you can with adults? Do you think we're born with our types? And I hope you do go back to university and eventually teach. I think someone with your people skills and deep sense of purpose would make a wonderful teacher.


The best way to find out is talking to people!
Darker INFPs aren't too rare and some INFJs are closer to the INTJ divide.

But yes! Sharing your experiences and discussing with people is always a wonderful thing and there actually is a thread to guess types from their signatures and avatars! Try to explore this forum, it has a lot to offer.

Aw thank you.
I don't think that young children can be typed since their brains are still developing but the older ones start to show signs of their functions preferences. It would be nice if one day many years from now, they came back to visit their old school so I could check if my guess was correct (and also, it would be lovely).


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

slytherin said:


> I know, I missed you ; ) how are you?


I'm doing fine! <3
Right now I'm making lots and lots of ice because it's getting way hotter than I thought.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ShoreWaves said:


> The best way to find out is talking to people!
> Darker INFPs aren't too rare and some INFJs are closer to the INTJ divide.
> 
> Aw thank you.
> I don't think that young children can be typed since their brains are still developing but the older ones start to show signs of their functions preferences. It would be nice if one day many years from now, they came back to visit their old school so I could check if my guess was correct (and also, it would be lovely).


I'm sure they'll all come back to see you, wavy.

And you're right: anything close to an INTJ is pretty dark. But they're fun (for me) to talk to.


----------



## Draki (Apr 4, 2014)

What a curious INTP :happy:
Welcome! I really like your introduction @ae1905.
I was wondering the whole time how old you are. You seem to know so much about Shakespear and so on. Then I was happy to see that you're Generation X so you're older than me and I still have the chance to be a bit more like you in a few years - hopefully.

I actually stopped reading books although I sometimes feel the urge to read. Always wanted to read something from Kant and other philosophers. But then I think I should better learn for college and not contemplating about other topics or something else. But on the other hand it's really frustrating to force myself to learn something I'm not completly interested in. In the end I didn't learn for college and didn't read and then I'm even more frustrated. So I think I'm a little bit stuck since a while. That's why I probabaly felt so happy to see how curious you are. Very refreshing. I guess it's the Ne-Fe loop? 

I know another INTP artist who is very successful. I admire him for doing the things he really love and I think an INTP is happiest if they can live their lives how they want it to be without being forced by someone else. 

I'm much more under pressure at the moment because I'm trapped in a "J system" I think. I'm studying computer science. I really like to study this interesting subject but I would rather discover it myself. Instead of: 
"Learn what we tell you, practise it and write exams" in German we say "Friss oder stirb" (Eat or Die) didn't really found an English phrase for it... I don't excel well in such an environnement. But I know there are also a lot of INTPs who excel well in university/school. I wonder how they differ from me. How can they motivate themselves?

What about you? What do you do for a living? Are you happy with it?
How long do you know that you're an INTP? 

And I also recommend socionics and the enneagram by the way. Even if it's not proven there is some truth in it in my opinion.


----------

