# What's the point of Enneagram?



## Mikhail (Aug 26, 2015)

I've read the wiki page, the intro, skimmed through the list of topics (first 3-4 pages), and at this point the theory seems to me to be even more of an astrology than even the astrology. And I've never found astrology to be valid or useful. So I'm wondering, what's the point of it? 
Don't bring up MBTI please. I have no idea why I'm putting my time into it and I'm not going to go into that debate. It'd be fruitless. 
And don't tell me to study the theory first either. I don't care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works if there's no use in it for me. (actually, I think I would care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works, but that's besides the point)
As I understood it from the intro, the main goal in Enneagram is supposed to be some kind of spiritual growth. What does it see as growth? What's the purpose of it?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Mikhail said:


> As I understood it from the intro, the main goal in Enneagram is supposed to be some kind of spiritual growth. What does it see as growth? What's the purpose of it?


Generally the process involves:


Identifying your dominant type
Through that become aware of how that's an unconscious habit in the way you deal with life
As you become more aware of these habits you can interrupt them and add choice when appropriate (instead of being on autopilot)
This offers some freedom from blindly doing the same thing you've always done even when it causes difficulty for you and others
Understand how others are caught in their own habits
Learn how to understand and relate to others from where their coming from in their habits

The difficulty with learning the Enneagram is that it's not an intellectual process, it's an experiential one. It can take a while to discover the experiences of the types. It's really about discovering how you and others are driven by a fundamental approach to life as described by the types and using that for self-development and better relationships.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Procrastination. I mean.. self-development. Heh..
Sometimes self-development is a cover for nothing but mental masturbation.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Mikhail said:


> I've read the wiki page, the intro, skimmed through the list of topics (first 3-4 pages), and at this point the theory seems to me to be even more of an astrology than even the astrology. And I've never found astrology to be valid or useful. So I'm wondering, what's the point of it?
> Don't bring up MBTI please. I have no idea why I'm putting my time into it and I'm not going to go into that debate. It'd be fruitless.
> And don't tell me to study the theory first either. I don't care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works if there's no use in it for me. (actually, I think I would care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works, but that's besides the point)
> As I understood it from the intro, the main goal in Enneagram is supposed to be some kind of spiritual growth. What does it see as growth? What's the purpose of it?


What's the point of life?


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## Mikhail (Aug 26, 2015)

Ixim said:


> What's the point of life?


How is this a relevant question?


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Mikhail said:


> How is this a relevant question?


meh nvm


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## Mikhail (Aug 26, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> Generally the process involves:
> 
> 
> Identifying your dominant type
> ...


So the point of it (other than to supposedly better understand others) is to become a more "rounded individual"? What these "habits" are like? Isn't Enneagram about core motivations? Why would you want to get rid of them or "interrupt" them? Maybe they are a part of who I am and I'd prefer to simply accept them? Maybe they are extensions of my strong qualities and trying to shut them down would compromise my strong qualities?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Mikhail said:


> Isn't Enneagram about core motivations? Why would you want to get rid of them or "interrupt" them? Maybe they are a part of who I am and I'd prefer to simply accept them? Maybe they are extensions of my strong qualities and trying to shut them down would compromise my strong qualities?


There's a huge difference between getting rid of type and interrupting its unconscious functioning.

I think some people new to the Enneagram make the mistake of trying to get rid of their type. Your type points to skills you've spent your whole life developing. They're useful. You don't want to throw them away.

The problem is when people use those skills when they're inappropriate. Often they do this because they don't know any better when things are on autopilot. Interrupting type is simply introducing a pause to this and being able to make a choice by asking the question, "is this the best way to deal with this specific situation?" You can still proceed as usual if you want but now you're not simply doing it out of habit.

The biggest problem to identifying with type is that it reduces your options for how to deal with life. When you identify with a type (often unconsciously) you become adamant about it being the *only *way to be in life. When you do that you're simply denying the other 8/9 of yourself. You can turn to your type's strengths any time you want. You've been doing it your whole life. The trick is to find enough wiggle room from it so you can explore what the other 8 types have to offer - to be open to that both in yourself and others.


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## Mikhail (Aug 26, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> The problem is when people use those skills when they're inappropriate. Often they do this because they don't know any better when things are on autopilot. Interrupting type is simply introducing a pause to this and being able to make a choice by asking the question, "is this the best way to deal with this specific situation?" You can still proceed as usual if you want but now you're not simply doing it out of habit.


What do you replace those habits with? In all my experience training instinctive/reflexive reactions, if you don't have time and place to think carefully enough, and you don't have a better option prepared, you will fall back to your instinctive habits anyway.


> The biggest problem to identifying with type is that it reduces your options for how to deal with life. When you identify with a type (often unconsciously) you become adamant about it being the *only *way to be in life. When you do that you're simply denying the other 8/9 of yourself. You can turn to your type's strengths any time you want. You've been doing it your whole life. The trick is to find enough wiggle room from it so you can explore what the other 8 types have to offer - to be open to that both in yourself and others.


So the _good_ use of Enneagram is to open your mind. Isn't it what recreational drugs are for?


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

The point of the Enneagram is to become acquainted with the way your own mind works: and the way your mind works is by repeating certain behavior patterns over and over and over again, because there were the behavior patterns that we learned as very young babies and children. Whether you realize it or not, you tend to always think in the same way about things, and act in the same way (although of course you will shift through out your lifetime). The Enneagram opens up the entire spectrum of possibilities of how you could think and act. Everyone is stuck in a box, and the Enneagram turns that box over and dumps you out. 
The Enneagram guides you on a path of gaining self-knowledge and self-knowledge _completely_ changes your life. 

Enneagram has *nothing* to do with astrology. If you think the Enneagram has something to do with astrology, it must be because you literally have no idea at all what the Enneagram is .


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## Mikhail (Aug 26, 2015)

charlie.elliot said:


> The point of the Enneagram is to become acquainted with the way your own mind works: and the way your mind works is by repeating certain behavior patterns over and over and over again, because there were the behavior patterns that we learned as very young babies and children. Whether you realize it or not, you tend to always think in the same way about things, and act in the same way (although of course you will shift through out your lifetime). The Enneagram opens up the entire spectrum of possibilities of how you could think and act. Everyone is stuck in a box, and the Enneagram turns that box over and dumps you out.
> The Enneagram guides you on a path of gaining self-knowledge and self-knowledge _completely_ changes your life.


So basically it's a snake oil.


> Enneagram has *nothing* to do with astrology. If you think the Enneagram has something to do with astrology, it must be because you literally have no idea at all what the Enneagram is .


You didn't get the point of my analogy.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Mikhail said:


> What do you replace those habits with?


You are all nine types in actuality. It's just that you're fixated at one type through your habits. Once you begin freeing yourself from those habits you can start developing alternatives through the other types. That's what I was saying in the last post.



> The biggest problem to identifying with type is that it reduces your options for how to deal with life. When you identify with a type (often unconsciously) you become adamant about it being the only way to be in life. When you do that you're simply denying the other 8/9 of yourself.


[HR][/HR]


Mikhail said:


> So the _good_ use of Enneagram is to open your mind. Isn't it what recreational drugs are for?


It sounds like you've got a lot to learn. Good luck on whatever path you choose or life chooses for you.


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Mikhail said:


> So basically it's a snake oil.


Snake oil? i dont even know what that is. But I dont get it-- why be cynical? Just try it out. What is motivating you to be cynical about it?

You said,



Mikhail said:


> at this point the theory seems to me to be even more of an astrology than even the astrology. And I've never found astrology to be valid or useful.


Enneagram is not "an astrology" at all. Astrology is random bullshit based totally on the arbitrary day of your birth. Of course its not valid or useful, its total BS. The Enneagram is actually finding your personality type based on your actual behavior. So its not arbitrary at all.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

@Mikhail
If you're truly interested in understanding the usefulness of the Enneagram types then this may help.


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## Mikhail (Aug 26, 2015)

charlie.elliot said:


> Snake oil? i dont even know what that is. But I dont get it-- why be cynical? Just try it out. What is motivating you to be cynical about it?


Snake oil. A supposed cure from a mythical unverifiable decease, by curing which you'll suddenly become happy and successful, and your dreams will come true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil
I'm not being cynical, I'm being skeptical. And I'm being skeptical because it smells of bullshit.



> Enneagram is not "an astrology" at all. Astrology is random bullshit based totally on the arbitrary day of your birth. Of course its not valid or useful, its total BS. The Enneagram is actually finding your personality type based on your actual behavior. So its not arbitrary at all.


Seeing how it works with MBTI, I'm inclined to disagree that it can be taken as a criterion of validity. Is it hypothetically possible, that when typing a person, you wouldn't assign a type to this person and instead conclude that Enneagram does not apply to him/her?


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Mikhail said:


> Snake oil. A supposed cure from a mythical unverifiable decease, by curing which you'll suddenly become happy and successful, and your dreams will come true.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil
> I'm not being cynical, I'm being skeptical. And I'm being skeptical because it smells of bullshit.


Ok now I understand, thanks for actually explaining your view on it. You're saying its bullshit because you were under the impression it was easy, that you can just read your type description and it'll just magically change your life. If I were saying that, then I'd hope you'd be skeptical and call me out on spewing BS 
However, its completely the opposite.... the enneagram doesn't help you at all unless you put in a LOT of work. And it takes years. Just knowing your type wont help you at all unless you put in years of work and self-study. Its all about knowing yourself. You dont *need* the enneagram of course to gain self-knowledge, but it helps a lot. And since most people dont have very much self-knowledge at all, they need all the help they can get. 
You will encounter a lot of people who are like "yeah Im a Four!" or whatever but they're not actually doing any self-work at all. They're not using the enneagram for anything good. The only point of it is to use it to gain self-knowledge. 



> Seeing how it works with MBTI, I'm inclined to disagree that it can be taken as a criterion of validity. Is it hypothetically possible, that when typing a person, you wouldn't assign a type to this person and instead conclude that Enneagram does not apply to him/her?


Wait what I dont understand? Its completely separate from MBTI and everyone has both an MB type and an enneagram type.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Mikhail said:


> What do you replace those habits with? In all my experience training instinctive/reflexive reactions, if you don't have time and place to think carefully enough, and you don't have a better option prepared, you will fall back to your instinctive habits anyway.
> 
> So the _good_ use of Enneagram is to open your mind. Isn't it what recreational drugs are for?


It's not about instinctiveness in the kind of timeframe you'd have to train new reflexes to. It's just you encountering a situation, and having had the habit to do Thing X in that situation (ie. "I don't really want to go there, I'm satisfied staying at home") and taking note of that. Then instead of doing Thing X out of habit you can think if doing Thing X would actually make you happy in that situation or if it's just something you do because you're used to it or have a defeatist mindset about the other option or the like and make a conscious decision about which course of action or pursue.

You don't necessarily need the Enneagram for that, but recognizing these kinds of habits you often rationalize to yourself and lead to you missing out on the fullness of life is very useful.


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

Mikhail said:


> I've read the wiki page, the intro, skimmed through the list of topics (first 3-4 pages), and at this point the theory seems to me to be even more of an astrology than even the astrology. And I've never found astrology to be valid or useful. So I'm wondering, what's the point of it?
> Don't bring up MBTI please. I have no idea why I'm putting my time into it and I'm not going to go into that debate. It'd be fruitless.
> And don't tell me to study the theory first either. I don't care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works if there's no use in it for me. (actually, I think I would care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works, but that's besides the point)
> As I understood it from the intro, the main goal in Enneagram is supposed to be some kind of spiritual growth. What does it see as growth? What's the purpose of it?


Unlike astrology, the enneagram is supposed to have an inner framework, though to be honest, I never actually understood it.


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

charlie.elliot said:


> Ok now I understand, thanks for actually explaining your view on it. You're saying its bullshit because you were under the impression it was easy, that you can just read your type description and it'll just magically change your life. If I were saying that, then I'd hope you'd be skeptical and call me out on spewing BS
> However, its completely the opposite.... the enneagram doesn't help you at all unless you put in a LOT of work. And it takes years. Just knowing your type wont help you at all unless you put in years of work and self-study. Its all about knowing yourself. You dont *need* the enneagram of course to gain self-knowledge, but it helps a lot. And since most people dont have very much self-knowledge at all, they need all the help they can get.
> You will encounter a lot of people who are like "yeah Im a Four!" or whatever but they're not actually doing any self-work at all. They're not using the enneagram for anything good. The only point of it is to use it to gain self-knowledge.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I agree one should put so much faith in the enneagram to the dangerous point of leading your life according to it.

Regarding self-knowledge, have you ever taken into account the possibility of convincing yourself you are on type of the enneagram or another? Sometimes I get the feeling I might actually not *be* any type or suffer from any of those things presented in it, but somehow convince myself (unconsciously, of course) that I am a certain type and I need to do that or that.

Secondly, let's take into account the personal growth tips. At first glance, they seem to make sense, but what if they are also fundamentally wrong? At the end of the day, who decides how a human being should be, ideally?


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Boxes. Humans like em'.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

TopCatLSD said:


> The point is to scratch your ass in self pity, than justify it by quoting a number. <And that's about it.


Or maybe some people have just been to dark places and grasp at whatever works best with their mind to help them pull themselves out.

Others may have never been in those places and have no frame of reference, or they become one of those types (whose best way of dealing was muscling through) who have disgust for people who are reflections of where those muscle-men have been.

Compassion, random internet person. Compassion.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Or, maybe . . . people get the same thing out of it that others get from MBTI! And who cares if that's irrational!

This is a site based on typology, for frigg's sake! No one here can honestly claim anything more than having a pseudoscience that is slightly less pseudoscience'y than the others!

FIND YO TYPE, GET YO LIFE


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## Fire Away (Nov 29, 2013)

Kerik_S said:


> Or maybe some people have just been to dark places and grasp at whatever works best with their mind to help them pull themselves out.
> 
> Others may have never been in those places and have no frame of reference, or they become one of those types (whose best way of dealing was muscling through) who have disgust for people who are reflections of where those muscle-men have been.
> 
> Compassion, random internet person. Compassion.


Oh spare me. It looks like you haven't been here long, but let me tell you; For a community that prides itself on self discovery, there is very little of that going on. This place is like a safe-haven for depressed people who are looking for any excuse to justify their behavior.

^Without giving you my whole life story, I have been through plenty of depression. Now, I'm one of the strongest people I know.

Bottom line, I have met very few people on here that have actually used typology as a way to grow, me being one of those. As much as I want to say that typology is good, it's abused far too often.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

TopCatLSD said:


> Oh spare me. It looks like you haven't been here long, but let me tell you; For a community that prides itself on self discovery, there is very little of that going on. This place is like a safe-haven for depressed people who are looking for any excuse to justify their behavior.
> 
> ^Without giving you my whole life story, I have been through plenty of depression. Now, I'm one of the strongest people I know.
> 
> Bottom line, I have met very few people on here that have actually used typology as a way to grow, me being one of those. As much as I want to say that typology is good, it's abused far too often.


Damn. That's a shame.

I guess I'm glad I refused to go on these websites until _after_ I got through a few "dark nights of the soul" (short version: several involuntary commiments, residential treatments, anywhere from one to seven medications at once by the age of 16, clinical psychosis from the sheer stress I put on myself in learning some mind-training methods to get through my stuff, several years of trauma resultant from what happened when I was in psychosis, unaware that it was psychosis and thinking it was just part of the journey of dealing-with-my-shit)....

Maybe I had some sense about these kinds of places back then, that they would be enabling.

I literally drew it as a hard-line rule to "Not indulge in typology until I'm a happy person."

xD

You reminded me of a possible reason why I drew that line in the sand way back when.

It is a shame, though.

Perhaps the ones who are seeking it for betterment are just not on these forums?

I mean, being through the bulk of my demons, this is largely self-masturbatory, so for people who aren't quite at the point where they can proverbially blow their load on the skeletons in their closet.... this might actually not be a good place to deal... =(

　
EDIT: _You're Gen-Z? How did you become so jaded so fast? xD_ Were Baker Acts involved?


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Mikhail said:


> I've read the wiki page, the intro, skimmed through the list of topics (first 3-4 pages), and at this point the theory seems to me to be even more of an astrology than even the astrology. And I've never found astrology to be valid or useful. So I'm wondering, what's the point of it?
> Don't bring up MBTI please. I have no idea why I'm putting my time into it and I'm not going to go into that debate. It'd be fruitless.
> And don't tell me to study the theory first either. I don't care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works if there's no use in it for me. (actually, I think I would care how an autonomous robotic lawnmower works, but that's besides the point)
> As I understood it from the intro, the main goal in Enneagram is supposed to be some kind of spiritual growth. What does it see as growth? What's the purpose of it?


The Enneagram identifies how you are fucked up.
So that you can be aware of this fact and be more miserable.
Then you get to identify with your misery and spend the rest of your life hating yourself.
Some people see past this flaw in the system and manage to leverage it for real growth.
You don't strike me as one of those, so you should stear clear of it for your own good.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

hornet said:


> The Enneagram identifies how you are fucked up.
> So that you can be aware of this fact and be more miserable.
> Then you get to identify with your misery and spend the rest of your life hating yourself.
> Some people see past this flaw in the system and manage to leverage it for real growth.
> You don't strike me as one of those, so you should stear clear of it for your own good.


Hornet makes a sting. Geebus.

Enneagram is like the Shadow to Socionics's Psyche. Me likey them both. Follow the growth lines and such.


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