# NT's help an INFP female establish dominance over NT men



## RomanticRealist (Mar 26, 2010)

Hurting said:


> The racial mistreatment really made me angry. So I befriended the black guy and told them all they were wrong with the way they treated him. My supervisors face got all red and told me it was inappropriate to associate with the black guy. No one but me complained when the white men hung around my cubical area. I love the area that I live in but I don't care much for the job. I love doing the technical part but dealing with the people is difficult.



I would have done the same as you. This is all geography and society.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

RomanticRealist said:


> I don't know. Maybe. But I would argue that this is not because of personality types but because of society and the way that boys are brought up. Yes there are sexist men out there, but then there are also men who can appear sexist but deep down, they really are not.
> 
> Growing up, a boy admires the qualities of a man that is couragous and competitive. That's why we gravitate towards sports or tv shows or movies depicting of a hero overcoming adversities with lots of action. A father would teach a boy how to go out and win, how to hunt or how to fish. A mother have no interest in that, she'll teach a boy that competition is bad and that everyone should win. Throughout our lives we are met with these contradicting philosophies, we would be reminded in the media that we (as men) should be competitive and aggressive in order to rise to the top while simultaneously we're being told that being aggressive and competitive towards woman in the work place can be seen as a sign of sexism. I think that this "deep down sexism" that you speak of, at least from my frame is actually the need for us to excel at what we do (well, for an ENTJ at least). In the context of gender roles, we will NEVER compete with a woman in being understanding, nurturing, or even to a lesser extent, multitasking. However, we are inately competitive in getting the job done, solving problems or any acts of strength because we think that this is our purpose in the world.
> 
> ...



I think what is going to happen is the next generation, your generation or younger these types of predigests against woman are not going to be as bad as it for my age. There will be more woman in those kinds of fields and you younger men are taught from a younger age equality. These men I am having trouble with are in their fifties. So they are still old school. Of course the court room my be a great place to teach a few lessons. :wink:


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## napoleon227 (Jan 17, 2010)

Hurting said:


> I think what is going to happen is the next generation, your generation or younger these types of predigests against woman are not going to be as bad as it for my age. There will be more woman in those kinds of fields and you younger men are taught from a younger age equality. These men I am having trouble with are in their fifties. So they are still old school. Of course the court room my be a great place to teach a few lessons. :wink:


It already has changed a lot, I think. It has here in Canada anyway, I've noticed a lot more respect between genders among young people than there was in previous generations.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

napoleon227 said:


> It already has changed a lot, I think. It has here in Canada anyway, I've noticed a lot more respect between genders among young people than there was in previous generations.



I have seen it too in my lifetime. I trained to be a mechanic as a teenager. But back then no one would hire a girl mechanic. Now I see them all over the place. And the younger men have respect for woman at work. It is just the old ones that I have trouble with. In time all that will change and there will be equal opportunities. But that kind of thing takes time.


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## napoleon227 (Jan 17, 2010)

Hurting said:


> I have seen it too in my lifetime. I trained to be a mechanic as a teenager. But back then no one would hire a girl mechanic. Now I see them all over the place. And the younger men have respect for woman at work. It is just the old ones that I have trouble with. In time all that will change and there will be equal opportunities. But that kind of thing takes time.


I don't think we will ever have true equality because humans will always find something to be prejudiced about. I think it's human nature, but if we can at least get people to accept the idea that there_ should be_ equality then it helps a lot.

Btw, have you ever watched _Mad Men_, because it's amazing how that show portrays the various prejudices that were common in the early sixties (from what I've seen of my parents and their friends). The amount of detail and realism in that show is remarkable and I think says a lot about our own time as well.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

napoleon227 said:


> I don't think we will ever have true equality because humans will always find something to be prejudiced about. I think it's human nature, but if we can at least get people to accept the idea that there_ should be_ equality then it helps a lot.
> 
> Btw, have you ever watched _Mad Men_, because it's amazing how that show portrays the various prejudices that were common in the early sixties (from what I've seen of my parents and their friends). The amount of detail and realism in that show is remarkable and I think says a lot about our own time as well.



I have not seen that movie but I am going to get it and watch it. I agree that there will always be something. I think in the future it will be based on personality type more so then skin color or race. From this forum I can see hatred building around different groups. That will grow over time to something very big until laws are made to stop it. And a lot of people has some sort of crazy notion they have to be better than others in some way or other. I never have understood that mentality.


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## wealldie (Jan 24, 2010)

Hurting said:


> I think what is going to happen is the next generation, your generation or younger these types of predigests against woman are not going to be as bad as it for my age. There will be more woman in those kinds of fields and you younger men are taught from a younger age equality. These men I am having trouble with are in their fifties. So they are still old school.


Every generation wishes the one before and after dead. I know I do.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Hurting said:


> For the INFP female in a technical field we have to be near perfect. People just still don't see the INFP female as competent as an NT man. Even though I can think more logically then most of them can and am better at my job. This is not fair in the least but is the reality that I have to live with.


I just don't agree. If you'd be an INFP Male, you'd have the same problem.

You know what you should do? Just don't care. Because that's what most NT's do. They just don't give a damn, especially the Introverted ones.

But I doubt that you as an INFP are able to not care. So the main conclusion is: You'll always have this problem, and you are as much the reason for this problem to exist as your colleagues are.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

RomanticRealist said:


> I don't know. Maybe. But I would argue that this is not because of personality types but because of society and the way that boys are brought up. Yes there are sexist men out there, but then there are also men who can appear sexist but deep down, they really are not.
> 
> Growing up, a boy admires the qualities of a man that is couragous and competitive. That's why we gravitate towards sports or tv shows or movies depicting of a hero overcoming adversities with lots of action. A father would teach a boy how to go out and win, how to hunt or how to fish. A mother have no interest in that, she'll teach a boy that competition is bad and that everyone should win. Throughout our lives we are met with these contradicting philosophies, we would be reminded in the media that we (as men) should be competitive and aggressive in order to rise to the top while simultaneously we're being told that being aggressive and competitive towards woman in the work place can be seen as a sign of sexism. I think that this "deep down sexism" that you speak of, at least from my frame is actually the need for us to excel at what we do (well, for an ENTJ at least). In the context of gender roles, we will NEVER compete with a woman in being understanding, nurturing, or even to a lesser extent, multitasking. However, we are inately competitive in getting the job done, solving problems or any acts of strength because we think that this is our purpose in the world.


 An issue is when people think that competition is an excuse to degrade someone. Fair competition is gracious and respectful. Within a business, you are really on the same team. There may be some competition to move up within the company, but not at the detriment of the group.

There's also this "either or" attitude. You're either kind or you're efficient, or whatever. Why can't someone be both? A woman can appear fit the traditional gender role without her capabilities being confined to it. She may not need to be "aggressive" to get the job done - there are many ways to skin a cat. 



> It's hard to talk about this issue without bringing up feminism. Feminism promised equality, but what we're seeing today is not equality but sameness. Men are becoming more like women and women are becoming more like men. Women who find themselves in leadership positions may feel dominated by men because that's just how we operate. We love to compete and be assertive and women who are shy and introverted may feel dominated. Similarly men in fields such as nursing may feel inadequete and effeminant. I think instead of choosing to adopt the philosophy of the other sex, we should appreciate the differences and come back to the original goal of feminism; respect for each other as equals. We should first know ourselves better. Find out and develope our strengths. Then we can understand how the other operates and be able to reason with each other using the form of communication that is most comfortable to THEM. (e.g. appeal to ESTJ/ENTJ using logic and facts) That is how we become better communicators and leaders.


I agree with this, but I think the movement to "sameness" has partly come from a devaluing of female strengths (in the context of a business setting - for relationships, it can be reverse). This is seems to be the issue with the OP. Her way of working is not being respected even though it does get results. As I said above, there are different ways to do the same thing, and a "feminine" way is not lesser. Some men can distrust the "feminine way" outside of a traditional gender role setting though, which is unfair.

It's good to adapt to other people, but it can't be one-sided. There was a thread in the NF forum about an INFP in an "SJ work environment" who was starting a "slow rebellion" precisely because time & again his strengths had been suffocated and all the adjustment was on his end. That's a toxic work environment for anyone.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Peter said:


> I just don't agree. If you'd be an INFP Male, you'd have the same problem.
> 
> You know what you should do? Just don't care. Because that's what most NT's do. They just don't give a damn, especially the Introverted ones.
> 
> But I doubt that you as an INFP are able to not care. So the main conclusion is: You'll always have this problem, and you are as much the reason for this problem to exist as your colleagues are.


But many "feeling" traits are associated with being "feminine", which is associated with "weakness". It isn't just a gender issue though, I agree. Part of it is people not seeing that you don't need to do something just like everyone else to do it well. I don't work in an NT field (I work in a rather SP/NF field), but many clients are SJ, and the biggest obstacle is to get them away from doing something as it has always been done. In the case of the OP, it seems her perspective gets devalued because it's not voiced in a way that people expect it to be. Is an opinion or idea any less valuable because it is not worded aggressively? People seem to think so....

I've heard INFPs report expressing an idea in a group, having it ignored, only to hear a watered down version of it repeated by someone else later (louder & more aggressive) & see everyone else latch onto it then. Generally in life, it has been a pattern for me to take some new route, have it mocked, and then see it embraced down the line when promoted by other people. That's frustrating.


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> I've heard INFPs report expressing an idea in a group, having it ignored, only to hear a watered down version of it repeated by someone else later (louder & more aggressive) & see everyone else latch onto it then. Generally in life, it has been a pattern for me to take some new route, have it mocked, and then see it embraced down the line when promoted by other people. That's frustrating.


I am in tech, which is probably dominated by NTs and maybe STs. Meetings can be really annoying. Some people just enjoy arguing with your point. Sometimes they do it b/c they just want to be convinced you are right. Yes, sometimes your ideas are ignored, and later refloated. But it just doesn't happen to NFs. The best way to deal with it is to be competent and confident. They will come around sooner or later.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Treating this as a gender issue, even though it may feel good because it's an explanation, it's not going to solve anything.

In a male world, complaining is something that's not much respected. Going into battles is also not much appreciated and even less when you´re a woman getting into a battle with male colleagues. The reason is that a man has the disadvantage because if he battles in the same way he would battle with a male colleague, he will not be respected, by nobody.

And is it that different if a man is the only one in between a group of female colleagues? If he's doesn't adapt he won't be appreciated either.


In my opinion, this is what's going on. Not adapting to the group dynamics. The gender difference is perhaps a part of the problem, but a rather small part. I'm pretty sure of this because I have female employees in my work (mostly technical) and they fit in just fine. The few cases where it didn't work, had nothing to do with gender differences, but more with not being able to adapt to the group (in other words, the employee simply didn't fit in). This also happens sometimes with male employees.


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## skeptical (Feb 26, 2010)

Cake,
a couple of things come to mind. 

1) the gender issue. 
As a woman myself, I have had my share of problems. I started out (both academically and professionally) in a technical field and faced a good deal of skepticism/sexism in certain workplaces at first. It was often masked by "compliments" and flirtatious attitudes. 
My strategy: dress in the most sober way, and relate to all my co-workers in the same way, independent of their gender. Not so common in southern Europe I can tell you. Basically, the key issue was to forget and make others forget, whether I was a man or a woman. 
After years, it seems to work. If I sense that someone is skeptical of my capabilities due to my gender, I just wait for the occasion to show them what I can do. Full stop. It's just a matter of time. Indeed, it is their problem, not mine. 
And if I were in a workplace where there is blatant sexism, besides denouncing the matter to the judicial authority, if appropriate, I'd simply look for another job and leave. 

2) hierarchy 
You say you work for the government and the issue of seniority comes up often in your posts. 
In my experience, this is typical in the public sector (I have worked both in the private and in the public sector, and as regards the latter I have observed the same dynamics in three different European countries, so I assume that the US wouldn't be much different in this respect). 
But as others have said, when it comes to respecting people, seniority is totally irrelevant for certain NT types, and surely for INTJs (at least based on the available descriptions of this temperament) including me. 
I'd say that any appeal to authority, any reference to your grade, is bound to fail with people like me and be counterproductive if you want people's respect. 

3) what we mean by "dominating". 
I go back to a point made by others in this thread. 
Remember that for certain types, a discussion is just about ideas and not about feelings. 
Trying to win an argument, animatedly defending a position, asking "difficult" questions, is the norm for certain people (again, including me). This has nothing to do with dominating others.


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## fn0rd (Mar 21, 2010)

No one establishes dominance over NTs except maybe other NTs, and even then, it's more of a give and take.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

skeptical said:


> Cake,
> a couple of things come to mind.
> 
> 1) the gender issue.
> ...


One thing that may be forgotten in this thread is that men battle in very different ways than women do. It goes horribly wrong when a woman battles a male colleague in the same way she battles a female colleague. (and visa versa)

When men have an issue, there is battle, there is an outcome and then everything's ok again. Somebody won and somebody lost.

In between women this doesn't go like that. I spoke with a guy once who worked in an office where he was the only man in between like 15 women. He told me that sometimes a female colleague will do something where he had no clue why, and then later through other colleagues find out it was because of something said 3 months before.

Men usually are much more direct and also will avoid being too direct because they know it can create a conflict. The female way is almost the exact opposite.

I'm sure what I wrote here not everybody agrees with. Please try to read between the lines and focus on the message I'm trying to pass, and not on the exact thing I wrote.


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## skeptical (Feb 26, 2010)

Peter said:


> One thing that may be forgotten in this thread is that men battle in very different ways than women do. It goes horribly wrong when a woman battles a male colleague in the same way she battles a female colleague. (and visa versa)
> 
> When men have an issue, there is battle, there is an outcome and then everything's ok again. Somebody won and somebody lost.
> 
> ...


Peter, I don't deny that there might be a difference in the way women and men face work-related "battles" (I'm not too sure what this means though) but I cannot really pinpoint it. 
I would be interested in understanding your point of view, so if you felt like expanding a bit, that would be appreciated. Cheers


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

skeptical said:


> Peter, I don't deny that there might be a difference in the way women and men face work-related "battles" (I'm not too sure what this means though) but I cannot really pinpoint it.
> I would be interested in understanding your point of view, so if you felt like expanding a bit, that would be appreciated. Cheers


Sure, no problem.

With "battle" I just mean a conflict. When 2 men have a conflict the goal is to resolve it quickly. They'll get into the conflict with the goal to get done with it. Of course both want to win, but since only one can win, the other has no choice but to accept it. That settles things, at least for a while.

Women, and please anybody can correct me if I'm wrong as this is just my view, on the other hand, won't go into these direct confrontations. They'll work through small remarks every now and then and try to use intelligence and capability (being better) when there is an opportunity. They will also try to get the appreciation of others, especially those higher in the hierarchy and in this way establish who's "boss".

Another way of looking at this:

When 2 men have a conflict, the one that walks out as the winner gained respect in the eyes of all observers (men and women). When 2 women have a conflict and deal with it like men do (direct confrontation) they both lose. Nobody (men and women) will respect the winner.

When there is a conflict between a man and a woman, the rules are complicated. Be too tough on a woman and few will respect you. Complain too much about a man and few will respect you.


I'm not saying that one way is better than the other. There are very logical reasons for these difference which I won't get into because that would be a looooong post and I will probably not be able to write it down in a way that exactly represents my view on these things anyway.

One last thing I would like to mention that some may relate to.... When a woman does her thing (like described above) too much and especially when there's no real reason for it, it annoys the hell out of me. When a man does his thing (like described above) too much and especially when there's no real reason for it, it annoys the hell out of me.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

Complex!!!! I think you hit the nail on the head with that explanation Peter. As an INFP, (1) I have no desire to be in a conflict, (2) to win the conflict and (3) the originator of the conflict loses all my respect. And to men and even other woman it seems like they want to conflict to establish dominance or hierarchy. But to gain the NT's respect and cooperation then are you saying that I need to battle with you as a man would and not complain about the battle?


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## thehigher (Apr 20, 2009)

Treeton said:


> You're going to have a hard time "dominating" NT's, really. If you want their respect, establish yourself as a confident, trust worthy person who can make good decisions and hold your own in an intelligent discussion , in time i'm sure that they'll come to respect you.
> 
> Theres no need to "dominate" and NT, thats no way to earn their respect.


Agreed. Dominating is only impressive to ST's. NT's respect saying exactly what you mean. If you show that your view is logical then they will respect it. But not to say your feelings are invalid or that they don't matter. However in the work setting... yea. If you want your opinion to be respected then it has to actually make logical sense to NT's. They don't pay as much attention to how you say things... more what you say. You should do the same when reading them. Don't get offended if they don't show the signs you are looking for. Instead ... look into EXACTLY what they said. Their words are where you find your answers... not in their facial expression, tone of voice, or body language. And don't feel like you are less than them because of this either. They ... despite the fact that they don't show it like us.... admire the F perspective as well. It's merely communicating with each other. Once you speak their language ... you can show them what yours is like. 


As for STJ's. Just get into that side of you that is just straight ..... kick you in your face. That side of you that is pissed off and wants to force logic on the outside world. You know it's in you xD. If STJ's sense intuitive feeling in you they will fight it. They will put you down to make themselves feel better and make fun of you just to let you know where you are in terms of rank. That is... if you show no boundaries or defense. They will make you want defense... and indeed you will need to have it when interacting with them. Don't show your feelings with these people.... only in doses. Give them a taste of your feelings and they will secretly love it because it is a lost part of themselves. 



Now in all of this.... be yourself. It's hard to know the difference between being yourself and exploring logic.... and pretending like you are the mack daddy at logic. Take baby steps. Learn about putting up boundaries with people that can potentially really hurt your feelings. Learn about saying exactly what you mean... and thinking about what you say before you say it. Learn about not arguing from your feelings.... when the subject matter is objective. If you do say something subjective... that's totally fine... just don't state it as if it was objective.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Cake said:


> Complex!!!! I think you hit the nail on the head with that explanation Peter. As an INFP, (1) I have no desire to be in a conflict, (2) to win the conflict and (3) the originator of the conflict loses all my respect. And to men and even other woman it seems like they want to conflict to establish dominance or hierarchy. But to gain the NT's respect and cooperation then are you saying that I need to battle with you as a man would and not complain about the battle?


To gain anybody's respect and cooporation, you need to start with respecting them. When you don't agree with something said, and you choose the ways I just described to deal with it, then you´re in a conflict. My previous post was about the conflict fase it self. But of course there's a process that leads to conflict. Your best approach is to avoid getting to that point.

Some people are better at that than others. I think that INFP's take many things way too personal and for that reason alone it seems like other people try to dominate. Often that's not the case, but when you respond in a way that looks like self-defence, then people will have the impression there is a conflict. What people often do in these situations is to avoid you. Most people don't like conflict and will try to avoid it as much as they can. But if somebody feels attacked in front of other people, they almost have no choice, they will have to attack back. Especially men will do this.

So to get along with people (NT's included) avoid conflict. When this is difficult, it may help to understand the processes that lead to conflict. If you observe you'll notice it's always the same process. The details of each are different of course, but the basic steps are always the same.


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