# I'm a "femme" lesbian - ask me anything!



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

I know there's an LGBT thread already, but I wanted to make this more specific. Especially because, stereotype-wise, "femme" lesbians are portrayed as either pornstars (gay for pay) or bicurious girls with boyfriends.

So if you have a question, go forth.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

I do have a question! Or a few rather...please don't take offense, I have just always wondered this...

Do you like women who dress and act like men? If so, what about them appeals to you as opposed to a feminine looking female? In other words, isn't liking a woman who looks and acts like a boy pretty much the same thing as liking men? Is the lack of penis the only thing that makes the difference for you?


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Does being a woman make it a lot easier to figure out how to give oral to to your partner?
I understand each woman would have their different likes and sensitivities but I'm assuming there's like a base line you can work from in that all vaginas have a likeness to one another.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I do have a question! Or a few rather...please don't take offense, I have just always wondered this...
> 
> Do you like women who dress and act like men? If so, what about them appeals to you as opposed to a feminine looking female? In other words, isn't liking a woman who looks and acts like a boy pretty much the same thing as liking men? Is the lack of penis the only thing that makes the difference for you?


I get this question a lot. And don't worry, no offense taken. I'm not easily offended unless I'm personally insulted, so no worries. 

As far as liking women who "act like" men - well, that's a hard question. What do men act like? And dress like? Women are unique in the sense that they can wear typical "men's" clothing - pants, jackets, whatnot - and not be looked at strangely. Do you mean more specific clothing, like ties? I think a woman in a tie is extremely hot, but I like all forms of genderbending because it challenges the norm. It's different. I don't really separate things as this is for men, and this is for women. 

My personal preferences are actually varied. My first girlfriend was extremely feminine, moreso than I am. She had long blond hair and wore a lot of makeup, dresses, lace, ect. My current fiance is a tomboy. She has short hair, wears only eyeliner, and will not be caught dead in a dress. However, I wouldn't consider her as being particularly "manly". She's more androgynous, I suppose.

I don't usually see the appeal in extremely butch women, but there have been times when I've found them attractive - and it wasn't because they were wearing a tie or had short hair. It's more about persona. Men and women, when you get down to basics, have differences that go beyond how they dress and what they look like. A man's touch is different than a woman's - even the smell is different. An extremely butch-looking woman will still be soft, will still be physically a woman, and can still have a penis (albeit a fake one, which can sometimes be even better because you can choose the shape AND the size AND the color!) It isn't about penis or no penis - there are so many complicated things to consider. 

I've always been personally attracted to someone's charisma. My ex and my fiance had wonderful charisma, even though they looked extremely different. It was how they made me feel and the emotional and physical response it evoked within me, which was something no man has ever been able to do.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Wellsy said:


> Does being a woman make it a lot easier to figure out how to give oral to to your partner?
> I understand each woman would have their different likes and sensitivities but I'm assuming there's like a base line you can work from in that all vaginas have a likeness to one another.


Haha, no, actually. Unfortunately, women aren't born with an innate understanding of that. There's a lot going on down there, seriously. It's like a maze. If I had known, I would have spent a lot of more time in my bathroom with a mirror, studying.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Snow White said:


> Haha, no, actually. Unfortunately, women aren't born with an innate understanding of that. There's a lot going on down there, seriously. It's like a maze. If I had known, I would have spent a lot of more time in my bathroom with a mirror, studying.


I suppose it's like with everything, we need to practice to reach perfection, but it certainly helps when the motivation of enjoyment and fun is there. I am very glad to now know this


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Wellsy said:


> I suppose it's like with everything, we need to practice to reach perfection, but it certainly helps when the motivation of enjoyment and fun is there. I am very glad to now know this


Exactly. And like you said before, everyone is different. What works with one partner won't work with another, and then you have to start all over again. It's a constant process of learning, which is good thing.


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## Laney (Feb 20, 2012)

Has your lesbianism always manifested? Was there a time when you realized your orientation?


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Snow White said:


> I get this question a lot. And don't worry, no offense taken. I'm not easily offended unless I'm personally insulted, so no worries.
> 
> As far as liking women who "act like" men - well, that's a hard question. What do men act like? And dress like? Women are unique in the sense that they can wear typical "men's" clothing - pants, jackets, whatnot - and not be looked at strangely. Do you mean more specific clothing, like ties? I think a woman in a tie is extremely hot, but I like all forms of genderbending because it challenges the norm. It's different. I don't really separate things as this is for men, and this is for women.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the awesome response. I understand now


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Laney said:


> Has your lesbianism always manifested? Was there a time when you realized your orientation?


Unfortunately, no, I wasn't one of those who knew from a young age. I was never taught that lesbians OR gay people existed; I didn't even hear about them until middle school. I remember being fascinated, but confused. 

But even though I wasn't aware, I do think that it manifested.

I was always very ashamed about my lack of sexual desire or need for boyfriends. I wanted to spend time with my best friend and preferred that over boys all the way through college. I didn't understand romance novels and I never experienced that "spark" with a kiss, or any sort of romantic fascination with a "real man". I had fantasies and imagination, and sometimes those involved men, but it was never specific or graphic. I wanted to feel and I wanted to be in love, so I would pretend and live vicariously through characters in novels. At one point I thought I was asexual, especially when I reached 22 and had still not had sex or felt any desire to have sex with anyone.

THEN, my best friend (the feminine ex) and I had a little too much to drink one night and things happened. After that I had a little crisis (I was 22). I wasn't sure what I was. At first I decided that I was heterosexual still, and she was the exception (even though I'd not been attracted to a man as of yet, it was less scary than labeling myself anything else). Then, I thought I could be bisexual. That was a little scarier, because it opened up a new world to me that I'd only ever looked at every now and then with quiet respect. I had gay friends in college and I obviously knew they were there, but I'd never had any experiences... there was no reason for me to question my sexuality because I repressed it so much. I didn't want to deal with my lack of interest.

After my ex and I broke up, I tried dating men (and women)... but that same feeling crept back over me. It just wasn't there. I met a guy who was perfect for me in every way, but I couldn't feel anything for him. It was at that point that I realized I was a lesbian. 

So I would say that I was always aware that there was something different about me, but I could never figure out what it was... and when I began figuring things out, it took me a while to become comfortable with it. I would say I've only really been truly comfortable as a _lesbian_ for about three years.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

my apologies if these are repeats, please disregard if that's the case ...

when did you know you were a lesbian?

have you EVER had a crush, lusted or loved a boy(man)?

Do you feel that you were born this way or was it more of a conditional thing?

What did your parents say when you told them? 
are they accepting of it now? 
do you have siblings? if so, what did they say? 
how does your family treat you now as opposed to when they didn't know?


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Have you ever tried dating anyone of the opposite sex? If so, were you sexually attracted to them?

Was that what helped you realize your sexual orientation?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> my apologies if these are repeats, please disregard if that's the case ...
> 
> when did you know you were a lesbian?
> 
> ...



1. I knew for sure that I was a lesbian when I was about 24, after I met my second girlfriend. That pretty much solidified things for me. 
2. I had crushes. As soon as the relationship turned physical, though, I'd immediately break it off. I had a string of three month relationships that was a source of many jokes in my family. After three months, the guy would usually want sex, and I'd break up with them in order to avoid it. I think the closest I got to really liking a boy (I wouldn't say love), was a particularly girlish guy that I didn't feel disgust with. But not feeling disgust doesn't equal liking... so... I don't know. I guess no? 
3. I definitely know I was born this way. I had no influences, and remained largely in the dark and confused for the majority of my childhood/teenage years. I have good relationships with my parents, I have never been sexually abused in any way, and I don't have a logical reason to be "turned off" of men. I had gay friends, but I was never so close to them that they guessed or even questioned my heterosexuality, so I wasn't "recruited". It just happened... and it suddenly made me realize how much sense my lack of interest really was.
4. I didn't tell my parents, they figured it out on their own while my ex was visiting. My mom cried. My dad never talked to me about it... at least not really. They both said they still loved me, but my mom said that she thought I was just mistaking "close friendship" for love, that I hadn't met the right guy, ect.,... she had a lot of stereotypical things that she said. She was also worried that life would be harder for me and that she wouldn't have grandchildren. 
5. They are very accepting. They LOVE my fiance, probably more than they love me. 
6. I have a brother. He always expressed that he didn't care, but my parents told me that it was hard on him. I'm not really sure why.
7. I feel like they treat me with more respect now. They know I'm happy, which is something my mom has expressed to my fiance on many occasions. I was very depressed before, and now I'm different. I'm more stable than I was, and she sees that change in me and knows it's for the better.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Have you ever tried dating anyone of the opposite sex? If so, were you sexually attracted to them?
> 
> Was that what helped you realize your sexual orientation?


Yes, I dated a LOT of guys, omg... I'm almost ashamed to admit how many. I wasn't sexually attracted to any of them, although I did find one or two more bearable than the others. As in, I didn't feel disgust for them. But powerful sexual attraction? No, that was never there. Sometimes my body would react (very rarely, maybe twice ever), but my mind was always elsewhere... fantasizing about those wonderful things that happened in books and to other people, never me. I was never able to get myself to have sex with a man, which frustrated me for a while because I wanted to just "try it and get it over with"... but now I'm glad I never did, because I can call myself a gold star. 

What really made me realize my sexual orientation was when I met my fiance. I had dated one girl before then, but up until that point I wasn't sure if she might have been the exception... and I had NO idea what the rule even was. Then I was worried that she would be the only person I would ever like and I would be doomed to roam the earth alone and without ever experiencing that intense euphoria again... at least in an intimate relationship, but nothing can beat that - fantasies, while powerful, are only play-acting... and a part of me always knew that and had an intense desire for the real thing. 

When I met my fiance, I realized that yes, I could feel it again, and it was for another woman, and it didn't have to be a friend I'd known for 10 years prior to becoming sexual. It existed. Once that happened, it was like all my uncertainties fell away and I was able to see myself more plainly and honestly than I ever had before.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> my apologies if these are repeats, please disregard if that's the case ...
> 
> when did you know you were a lesbian?


 I've never NOT known I was attracted to women. I remember watching a particular Mariah Carey video and thinking _"Dang!"_. My first "crush" was on my best friend in my early teens. I remember being at their house, staring at their lips and having this overwhelming urge to kiss them- I knew something was up then, but really closed myself off from thinking about it. 



> have you EVER had a crush, lusted or loved a boy(man)?


 Crush and love- yes. I can't say I've ever completely lusted, any feeling I had of attraction would soon disappear the more physical things got.


> Do you feel that you were born this way or was it more of a conditional thing?


 If their was a conditional cause, It happened before my memory starts. I don't ever remember knowing what I felt when looking at someone, it just took awhile for me to connect that with sexuality. 



> What did your parents say when you told them?


 Both told me they loved me.


> are they accepting of it now?


 Both seem really averse to talking about it, they still have a ways to go.


> do you have siblings? if so, what did they say?


 One finished my sentence before I would spit the words out. The other, I don't see that often, so never got to tell them in person. I visited them recently and they told me where a local lgbt friendly bar was nearby. They both have been wonderful about it so far.


> how does your family treat you now as opposed to when they didn't know?


 The same. 


kaleidoscope said:


> Have you ever tried dating anyone of the opposite sex? If so, were you sexually attracted to them?


 Yes, and no. 



> Was that what helped you realize your sexual orientation?


 Really, just thinking about it.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Snow White said:


> 1. I knew for sure that I was a lesbian when I was about 24, after I met my second girlfriend. That pretty much solidified things for me.
> 2. I had crushes. As soon as the relationship turned physical, though, I'd immediately break it off. I had a string of three month relationships that was a source of many jokes in my family. After three months, the guy would usually want sex, and I'd break up with them in order to avoid it. I think the closest I got to really liking a boy (I wouldn't say love), was a particularly girlish guy that I didn't feel disgust with. But not feeling disgust doesn't equal liking... so... I don't know. I guess no?
> 3. I definitely know I was born this way. I had no influences, and remained largely in the dark and confused for the majority of my childhood/teenage years. I have good relationships with my parents, I have never been sexually abused in any way, and I don't have a logical reason to be "turned off" of men. I had gay friends, but I was never so close to them that they guessed or even questioned my heterosexuality, so I wasn't "recruited". It just happened... and it suddenly made me realize how much sense my lack of interest really was.
> 4. I didn't tell my parents, they figured it out on their own while my ex was visiting. My mom cried. My dad never talked to me about it... at least not really. They both said they still loved me, but my mom said that she thought I was just mistaking "close friendship" for love, that I hadn't met the right guy, ect.,... she had a lot of stereotypical things that she said. She was also worried that life would be harder for me and that she wouldn't have grandchildren.
> ...


Thank you for your replies 

I hope you don't mind more questions(curiosities) ...

1). you mentioned that after 3 months, when the guy wanted sex, you would break it off to avoid. were you afraid of sex? what was in your mind when those 3 months crept up ... were you happy and enjoying the experience of the guys prior to that 3 month mark?

2). you said that you felt a little open towards the feminine guy. how are your feelings towards men now. when you were young. when you were an adolescent. I am talking how you "felt(feel)" around neutral men. Like teachers, the guy fixing your car, behind the cashier counter, your uncle, your neighbor, etc. - Are you chatty? Friendly? Warm? Happy?

3). you said things solidified about the age of 24. When did you start dating your current GF that has made you "more stable"?

4). Do you think you have a healthy emotionally independent life away from your GF?

5). Is it difficult to make friends? Are you limited now to mostly other gay people?
How social were you before you made this choice?


_I hope none of the questions bothered you!  
I really appreciate your openness and time!
I have other not as serious questions too if_ _that's okay _


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Thank you for answering! )



voicetrocity said:


> I've never NOT known I was attracted to women. I remember watching a particular Mariah Carey video and thinking _"Dang!"_. My first "crush" was on my best friend in my early teens. I remember being at their house, staring at their lips and having this overwhelming urge to kiss them- I knew something was up then, but really closed myself off from thinking about it.
> 
> So about the time a girl usually develops attraction to boys ?
> 
> Crush and love- yes. I can't say I've ever completely lusted, any feeling I had of attraction would soon disappear the more physical things got. Was it a lack of attraction because you were not ready or feeling like getting physical when that time was happening? when you were first with women sexually, when things started to get sexual, did your attraction increase? when was the first time you had sex with a woman. How did you feel about it afterwords?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> Thank you for your replies
> 
> I hope you don't mind more questions(curiosities) ...
> 
> 1). you mentioned that after 3 months, when the guy wanted sex, you would break it off to avoid. were you afraid of sex? what was in your mind when those 3 months crept up ... were you happy and enjoying the experience of the guys prior to that 3 month mark?


I wasn't afraid, I just felt... not into it. Disgusted, even. I don't want to be blatantly disrespectful of men, because I have nothing against them at all, but I just... didn't feel comfortable being touched. I didn't feel threatened or afraid, I just didn't like it. As far as enjoying their company... lol, no. I was the worst girlfriend in the world. I didn't want to see them more than once a week, because I felt more content staying home and reading/writing/role-playing fantasy games rather than going out with them. Breaking up was always a partial relief for me, because it gave me the freedom I wish I had.

The reason I bothered with the relationships at all was mainly to have the status of a relationship. The relationship itself seemed to be secondary to that... for some reason. I just sort of began to think that I would never really be "in love" and I might just have to settle just to not be alone forever.



> 2). you said that you felt a little open towards the feminine guy. how are your feelings towards men now. when you were young. when you were an adolescent. I am talking how you "felt(feel)" around neutral men. Like teachers, the guy fixing your car, behind the cashier counter, your uncle, your neighbor, etc. - Are you chatty? Friendly? Warm? Happy?


As a romantic partner, I was more open to feminine men. Men in general I'm fine around, except for much older men... for some reason, they always make me feel a little icky. Maybe because I had a lot of older men hit on me when I was a little TOO young. I'm actually more comfortable with my male co-workers than female, because we happen to have similar senses of humor. I don't have any close male friends, but I just tend to form stronger bonds with women... and I have a small social circle in general. Random men at the store I treat just the same as I do the women. I wouldn't say I'm friendly or warm (I'm not usually either one of those things to strangers), but I'm polite and do my thing and don't avoid them.



> 3). you said things solidified about the age of 24. When did you start dating your current GF that has made you "more stable"?


I began to understand myself more. She has a more grounded personality and affect on me - I'm a little more impulsive, reckless, and emotional. She makes me really stop and think and not get caught up in inner drama that can plague me from time to time. She makes me enjoy the little things. She has an innocence to her that really gives me an appreciation for things I used to overlook. She brings out the best in me, for lack of better words. 



> 4). Do you think you have a healthy emotionally independent life away from your GF?


I'm not really independent, no. I kind of need her. Some people would see that as bad or wrong, but I don't think it is. I like being her everything and having her be my everything, regardless of unhealthy implications.



> 5). Is it difficult to make friends? Are you limited now to mostly other gay people?


No, my straight friends are still very present in my life. I didn't have any friends ditch me because of my sexual orientation, my friends were always very liberal. I have some extended family that are uncomfortable with it, but I don't see them or interact with them often enough to really care about their opinion. I have gay friends, but my best friend is straight, married, and trying for a baby. <3



> How social were you before you made this choice?


What choice? 



> I have other not as serious questions too if that's okay


That's fine!


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> Thank you for answering! )


 No problem! It's been a while since we've chatted on the forum, so "Hi!", lol. 
_



So about the time a girl usually develops attraction to boys ?

Click to expand...

I suppose you could say that, people seem to have varied ideas of when attraction is "supposed" to develop. 




Was it a lack of attraction because you were not ready or feeling like getting physical when that time was happening? when you were first with women sexually, when things started to get sexual, did your attraction increase? when was the first time you had sex with a woman. How did you feel about it afterwords?

Click to expand...

Ok, I hope you don't take offense, but there are some personal questions here that I'm going to decline to answer. I will say that my lack of attraction wasn't because I wasn't "ready" to be intimate or in a relationship with someone (though that's the only explanation I could really come up with when things went to crap with a man). I put myself out there a lot with men and was always emotionally deflated by the end of it. I was really only "going through the motions" and was way more detached from any of the men I dated than I knew was "typical". I knew what "desire" was ,but had no idea what actual "love" was like and I figured that bond would develop over time; I was waiting, anticipating that validation which never came. That usually just lead to me saying "F- it, I don't need anyone". _


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

@_voicetrocity_ It HAS been awhile! ) HI! :kitteh: my apologies for getting too personal. I suppose I have had that feeling when I was younger that when things got physical, I wasn't really interested. I differ in that, I do(did)lust men after a connection was formed. For me I suppose I've suffered from a condition when I was younger called, catholic neurosis. I've been treated and do well managing the disease of morality(gone.awry) very well, kinda like a diabetic manages their condition. So the curiosity I think stems from that sentiment. Obviously as a grown adult, those experiences are no longer "new" and perspectives change towards those interactions regardless of orientation.

anywho ... moving on.
I mentioned that I had other not so serious questions earlier for anyone who might like to answer.
Just ignore any question you don't want to answer  

1. Is there a different "feel" getting along (do you get along better) with a heterosexual feminine woman or a "fem" lesbian ?

2. Do you get irritated when men hit on you, or are attracted to you?

3. what do you tell people in the above scenario? do you tell them your orientation or just that you're not interested? I ask this because I'm curious as to your sensitivity level towards rejecting men. 

4. What celebrity do you find super attractive?

5. What is your most favorite quality in your SO?
and if you don't have a current one, just a quality of women generally speaking.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

saintless said:


> Well, about a lesbian daughter and heterosexual parents? It's all the same, in the end. We gain what experience we can, but we never gain all the experience possible. Fair Enough ...
> 
> While I was hoping for a definition of the male role model, I understand your point. It's a good one, but I don't see it as entirely consistent. A male role model is just what it is. Whether it's bad or good. It's called social referencing in psychological terms. We ALL reference and learn by example. And so in all fairness, I could say with the same logic, if you felt your child was of a different sexual orientation than you (like if I found out my 14 yr old crushed on girls) I think I would probably try to befriend a healthy positive lesbian role model. Call me a dork but that is seriously what I might do in that situation. I think that it would be good and healthy for any child to have a "good and healthy" role model of all types of people.
> 
> ...


 I don't see the coincidence. 
you haven't really directly announced you're a butch fem so I would prefer not to assume. 

Thank you, I appreciate you for answering my questions


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

saintless said:


> I understand, but I guess I am trying to pull out what is the significance of a "male role model" or "father figure". I could go consult a few different and random articles, but most of them are probably preside on sexist ideals.
> 
> I totally believe that a single parent can raise a fully functioning child, but I also see deep value in having two parents. I also see the value in those parents having complementing personalities. However, what would the male or masculine presence in a person's life be like? What does it constitute beyond rather vague and ambiguous notions of strength, control, and so on?
> 
> ...



I wonder if I can answer this. 

Let's see, I grew up with my my Mom and my sister ... my mother has several times apologized to me for not giving me a "proper male role" model to which I told her she was a great role model and I did not need another, pus I was in boy scouts .... Since my father was manipulative (among other things and I never wanted to be like him lol) and because I wanted to "be a man" (i.e. be like stone lol ... ahhh but I was such a sensitive child lol) I had some emotional trust issues with men (even made worse when I confided something to my best male friend in H.S. and he just told me it was not that bad lol) ...

So with all that, maybe I can have a unique position on things. ... Now my Mom seems to care that I did not have the chance to learn "man things" like fixing a car and whatnot ... I don't think that is what defines a man (note that I consider myself gender neutral as I don't really care for gender assignments) ... but that is not an issue to me (I'm a big "boy" now, I can teach myself) ... I think she wanted to teach to be "masculine" too, but that is fine ... I taught myself some masculine traits :tongue: ... but there are somethings that I did not have ... I don't think it was a big deal, I managed, but it might of made life a little easier.

So, when I was at home, my Mom's house, I was the only male ... On a biological sex level I was different and I was aware that I was the only "man" ... and my mom wanted to raise me to be "masculine" (she failed //jk  ... my Mom is a strong woman and I am a lot like my Mom when she was my age apparently lol) and, she did not know how to by herself I don't think ... again, that is fine by me ... but between my Dad and her boyfriend after that, I never really had a close, deep relationship with a man as a kid (and I had one bad relationship with a man) and when you add all the sex stereotypes at school, I had felt a little emotionally distance from males and I kept my pain hidden around most males so that I could be a "tough" "man" ... and even though my Mom might tell me it is okay to cry, I never had a man tell me that ... On an emotional level I had a hard time trusting men lol ... I mean I eventually could trust my peers with my happy emotions, and maybe even some love too, but not of the "weak" emotions lmao

I suppose I also never had the male equivalent of the period talk ... What would the male equivalent be? The boner talk? ... Wet dream talk?

Oh ... and I had to teach myself childhood male bonding lol ... it involved rough housing and punches every now and then ... although I had some "friends" take it too far sometimes because I did not feel pain easily and I was easy on them because they were delicate :tongue:

So, I would say, loving male role models are good for fostering trust with males, they may have more of a "masculine" childhood experience, penis talks to boys (since they know what it is like to have a penis), and helping boys with changes in puberty (such as controlling your new found muscles lol), ... I guess those are the man reasons I could think of


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> So, I would say, loving male role models are good for fostering trust with males,


Thank You for being such a good puppy! :kitteh:

meep meep! 



(did that make you laugh )


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> Thank You for being such a good puppy! :kitteh:
> 
> meep meep!
> 
> ...


Actually it gave me a giant smile on my face lmao thank you *big hugs* ^__^


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Social referencing indeed, but if I wish to feign naivete then I am confused about what it is referencing. 



Ningsta Kitty said:


> I don't see the coincidence.
> you haven't really directly announced you're a butch fem so I would prefer not to assume.
> 
> Thank you, I appreciate you for answering my questions


I guess my Ne is showing? You made me start to think about what it means to be a man at the same I chose a male avatar. Maybe... this conversation did influence me. *shrugs* I am not taking myself too seriously tonight.

Thanks for asking the question.

@Mr. Meepers - I like your way of defining it. It takes out personality that has no real baseline anyhow and turns it into something else.... but I am too tired to figure out what that is. But, coolness. *suddenly falls asleep*


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> hypothetically, you and your SO have children,
> do you think it's important to have a good male role model in their life growing up?


Not necessarily. Like another poster stated, what does a male role model really contribute? What does gender really change about a person, as far as their ability to be a loving provider? I think a child only needs an adult who loves them and can care for them, not necessarily two of different sex. Many successful people are raised by single parents - who are somehow able to adopt in states where two loving LGBT parents would be barred.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Snow White said:


> Not necessarily. Like another poster stated, what does a male role model really contribute? What does gender really change about a person, as far as their ability to be a loving provider? I think a child only needs an adult who loves them and can care for them, not necessarily two of different sex. Many successful people are raised by single parents - who are somehow able to adopt in states where two loving LGBT parents would be barred.


If 2 men were raising a little girl they adopted. Do you think it would be important for that little girl to have a positive female role model in their life?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> If 2 men were raising a little girl they adopted. Do you think it would be important for that little girl to have a positive female role model in their life?


A little girl or little boy could have no shortage of positive role models, in my opinion, but I still don't see why it has to be female or male. The only benefit a same-gender relationship would have on terms of gender would be the sense of understanding physical and/or biological changes during puberty moreso than someone of another gender would - and understanding, caring male caregivers, I would think, would educate themselves on what a little girl goes through. I would find that sort of upbringing to be more welcoming than a female caregiver who felt uncomfortable discussing such things with her daughter.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Snow White said:


> Caring male caregivers, I would think, would educate themselves on what a little girl goes through. I would find that sort of upbringing to be more welcoming than a female caregiver who felt uncomfortable discussing such things with her daughter.


As someone who was raised by a female who wasn't comfortable with talking about the "changes" girls go through, I have to agree with this. My best friend is a gay man who I have every confidence would go out and educate themselves if they had a little girl and, in my opinion, would be a better influence in that respect.



Ningsta Kitty said:


> If 2 men were raising a little girl they adopted. Do you think it would be important for that little girl to have a positive female role model in their life?


 I don't think gender should have any weight on if someone could be a potentially positive role model for a child or not. I could have had a million people that my parents deemed "positive role models" thrown at me, and it wouldn't have made a difference. If they couldn't relate to me or I couldn't relate to them, they wouldn't be positive role models. If I raise children and they want to learn something like, lets say, gymnastics (something I'm not inclined towards) I might actively seek out and try to make sure that my child has a coach that would be a positive influence and foster growth in that area of their interest. My main concern would be to make sure that their interests and drives are nurtured and fostered in a positive way; if that can be done by someone of the opposite sex more than someone of their same sex, then so be it. It's about what's best for my child.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Semi-serious question: How many straight guys have hit on you in the last twelve months?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

voicetrocity said:


> As someone who was raised by a female who wasn't comfortable with talking about the "changes" girls go through, I have to agree with this. My best friend is a gay man who I have every confidence would go out and educate themselves if they had a little girl and, in my opinion, would be a better influence in that respect.


I couldn't like this comment enough. My mother was extremely uncomfortable talking about puberty issues with me. I was given a book and basically left to educate myself about it, so I still have some shame in that regard. My mom was a _wonderful_ mom, but she wasn't much help in this regard. It seems that by the time most women have children of their own, they don't usually remember what it's like to be a teenager. In some ways, a man would be better because he would feel the need to educate himself about the topic, whereas a woman might take it for granted and assume that they already know it.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Semi-serious question: How many straight guys have hit on you in the last twelve months?


LOL! Um. Maybe three? It doesn't happen that often, and I'm not always observant about being hit on. I've been told that I'm hit on, but so blatantly that I've noticed? Three. That's it.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

So you don't see gender essentially. you blur gender roles to the point of obsolete with regards to raising children all together. but you are only sexually turned on by a specific gender. so really, the only gender differences there are lie within the sexual domain. all other aspects of relationship are genderless? am I understanding this right? I'm sorry. I'm not ignorant because I want to be. I just don't know and I'm not sure what to ask to make it all make sense. Do you get offended when people are forthright with their curiosities?


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Semi-serious question: How many straight guys have hit on you in the last twelve months?


 Twelve months? I can't remember that far back. Suffice to say it's happened more than I'd like it to. 



Snow White said:


> I couldn't like this comment enough. My mother was extremely uncomfortable talking about puberty issues with me. I was given a book and basically left to educate myself about it, so I still have some shame in that regard. My mom was a _wonderful_ mom, but she wasn't much help in this regard. It seems that by the time most women have children of their own, they don't usually remember what it's like to be a teenager. In some ways, a man would be better because he would feel the need to educate himself about the topic, whereas a woman might take it for granted and assume that they already know it.


 -sighs- Yeah, that sounds all too familiar. My parents just seemed to expect my school and/or friends to tell me. 



Ningsta Kitty said:


> So you don't see gender essentially. you blur gender roles to the point of obsolete with regards to raising children all together. but you are only sexually turned on by a specific gender. so really, the only gender differences there are lie within the sexual domain. all other aspects of relationship are genderless? am I understanding this right? I'm sorry. I'm not ignorant because I want to be. I just don't know and I'm not sure what to ask to make it all make sense. Do you get offended when people are forthright with their curiosities?


No offense taken at all! This is hard for me to answer, because relationships are so much more complicated to just say they're genderless at all times. I just really have no idea how to answer this question; no offense or anything. I might have something to add after pondering this a bit.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> So you don't see gender essentially. you blur gender roles to the point of obsolete with regards to raising children all together. but you are only sexually turned on by a specific gender. so really, the only gender differences there are lie within the sexual domain. all other aspects of relationship are genderless? am I understanding this right? I'm sorry. I'm not ignorant because I want to be. I just don't know and I'm not sure what to ask to make it all make sense. Do you get offended when people are forthright with their curiosities?


I think the above quote would make more sense if you started to use the word sex along with gender given those two concepts are not mutually synonymous in every context and there is a distinct difference between them.

To explain this, I am going to pull something out of my personal notes. (I study a lot of sociology, political science, anthropology and psychology... which means I have random shit saved on my computer.)

_A clear distinction needs to be made for sex versus gender. Gender is a socially constructed, culturally-influenced entity. It is basically an identity or a personality, which are concepts external to the objective world. In other worlds, nothing concretely leads into personality, though it is very much true that the objective world may influence the outcome of a person's personality. Sex is something capable of influencing neither personality nor more specifically gender. However, sex is not an absolute detriment of gender nor are there certain traits that must and can only evolve out of a certain sex. 
Now, sex is a biological category for certain genetic and anatomical traits that tend to compliment each other on a reproductive function._

Those were my personal notes, but I need to add something to them. There is also a thing referred to psychological sex. Just because you have the biology of a certain sex that doesn't mean you will mentally identify as that sex. These people are referred to either as transsexuals or transgenders though I prefer the former. However, let's you have a female to male transsexual. This person could have either form of sexuality and any form of gender. They could be born a female but identify as a male who wants to sleep with other other males but is a "feminine" person as is generally socially defined (in western civilization given different cultures have different perspectives on gender). 

So when we appear to be underemphasizing gender here, we are moreover underemphasizing this fallacious assumption that gender and sex go hand in hand. To touch upon our earlier exchange, I see value in having a role model that would traditionally be considered masculine such that a role model with control over their emotions and certain levels of aggression/assertiveness is key to any one person's life no matter who they are. I just would never say that is a "male role model" because it could be anything but. I would just say it's a "role model" and then qualify it based upon whatever virtue or quality they seem to be capitalizing on. 

Also, I want to see if I can find an article for you to read, but I have to dig through some things first.

***EDIT:* I also meant to say that a lesbian is turned on by a particular sex alone and not necessarily a particular gender alone. They can be, but that is not what the term gender dictates. If you look up words like pansexual, polysexual, you will see there are levels of intersectionality between gender and sex that people may or may not find attraction to. As a polysexual myself (more accurate than bisexual for me), I can be rather genderless and even sexless in my perspective of potential partners but only because I don't have a strong preference. Otherwise, I do pay attention to these things.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

Yes, I have a question. It's perhaps a rather odd one though but I have finally found the courage to ask I suppose.

Although I am a man, I have noticed that I have been a sexual "target" of lesbians who were convinced that they were 100% lesbian.

First, is such a thing possible? It happened quite more than once with me and if so, what could the be the reason?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> So you don't see gender essentially. you blur gender roles to the point of obsolete with regards to raising children all together. but you are only sexually turned on by a specific gender. so really, the only gender differences there are lie within the sexual domain. all other aspects of relationship are genderless? am I understanding this right? I'm sorry. I'm not ignorant because I want to be. I just don't know and I'm not sure what to ask to make it all make sense. Do you get offended when people are forthright with their curiosities?


I don't get offended at all. I find questions to be preferable to people who make baseless assumptions without even questioning and trying to understand. I find the attempt to understand something unfamiliar to be a very noble quality in someone. So no, ask away.

As far as your question... yes, that is hard to answer. Why are we attracted to someone? I don't think any scientist has been able to nail down the elusive enigma that is love. For me, it comes down to the base emotional verses physical attraction. Like I said, differences between genders are almost always physical - as far as when someone is born a certain gender. Transgenders who feel as though they are another gender and don't change physically are still considered, to me, whatever gender they identify as. However, it's harder for them to find relationships because most lesbians are attracted to women who identify as women, so transgenders ftm often confuse lesbians. However, they also have a hard time finding a relationship with a heterosexual woman, who is attracted to a man, and many transgenders don't go through with surgery to physically become a man. Yet many of them do take testosterone and physically change in other ways. 

I can form emotional attachments with gay men, but I'm not attracted to men - and they aren't to women - so a physical relationship would be out of the question. I'm just not attracted to a man's physical make-up (it isn't just the penis or no penis issue, it's just... well, maybe that is part of it). It's a very superficial part of attraction (the physical chemistry) but it has to be there in an intimate relationship. Otherwise, what differentiates it from a friendship?

There have been straight men I've found attractive in terms of personality, but my body wouldn't respond to theirs. It's just not the way I'm wired. I've tried, and it just doesn't work. I don't yearn for them physically, with that base human sexual need that should be in all relationships. That was always lacking. And, despite personality being most important, that physical attraction and "spark" needs to be there as well. 

But when it comes ot personality? That is genderless. Especially in this day and age, when women are encouraged to be more independent, aggressive, and forthcoming about their needs. Men are also encouraged to be a little more sensitive to women and understanding. I think there's more of a stigma against a sensitive man verses an independent woman, but hopefully that trend will gradually fade and no one will be separating adjectives into "feminine" or "masculine". There are different chemicals that usually define a person in terms of aggression (testosterone) and (estrogen) more hormonal, but these chemicals are present in women as well. My SO has a high level of testosterone, so she is more aggressive, and I find that so-called masculine trait attractive about her. The only real thing, other than chemicals, that really pulls apart men and women are the societal expectations taken from them and are based upon superficial differences in physical makeup - strength equalizing being the provider, hunter/gatherer of the days when we were living in caves - and where the roles for the women, more befitting to their physical limitations, were to be the housekeeper. However, in this day and age those things are no longer necessary for base survival and are fluid. It's how it should have been all along, but now that we're a society that bases success off of more complex things, women have a role in being the provider and in being a more "masculine" figure.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> Yes, I have a question. It's perhaps a rather odd one though but I have finally found the courage to ask I suppose.
> 
> Although I am a man, I have noticed that I have been a sexual "target" of lesbians who were convinced that they were 100% lesbian.
> 
> First, is such a thing possible? It happened quite more than once with me and if so, what could the be the reason?


Huh. That is interesting. It is possible, of course, because sexuality is fluid and very few people are 100% any orientation. I haven't had a strong attachment like that to another man, though, so maybe I'm not the person to ask because I haven't gone through this experience. Most men I've dated, though, have been somewhat feminine/androgynous appearance-wise. Do you have this about you? Many of the men I've dated have also ended up being gay. I'm assuming you're not?

Either way, I can find men attractive and still not want to have sex with them. Being intimate with someone is entirely different than looking at a picture and finding it to be sexy. For example, I find Johnny Depp to be extremely attractive, but that doesn't mean I'm sexually turned on by him. You can look at another man and know that he's attractive, right? That doesn't mean you're gay.

I've always been frustrated with men I've dated that have been particularly clingy or as having traditional so-called feminine characteristics personality-wise, so I don't know if that would play a factor in their attraction to you. It could, but for me I would just get annoyed that they were being so needy. Not sure why this is, other than the simple fact that I wasn't into them.

Not that those things have to be there for a lesbian to find you attractive, I just find it odd that it's a pattern for you.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

Why aren't there that many femme-femme or femme-lipstick couples? Every time I see a femme (or lipstick) they are always with either a butch, ****, or tomboy.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

Thank you for your time. Although my interest in your thread is mainly based on what I want and partially it is just interest in you as a lesbian. But I have noticed some irregularities in my life...I am rarely sexually attracted to a woman. Very very rarely. Now my interest in men is, as far I a am aware of, 0. I have never felt a spark in the presence of a man. 



Snow White said:


> Huh. That is interesting. It is possible, of course, because sexuality is fluid and very few people are 100% any orientation. I haven't had a strong attachment like that to another man, though, so maybe I'm not the person to ask because I haven't gone through this experience. Most men I've dated, though, have been somewhat feminine/androgynous appearance-wise. Do you have this about you? Many of the men I've dated have also ended up being gay. I'm assuming you're not?
> 
> *I am a man. This whole androgynous business is mostly just attention- whoring. Call me ruthless as you will, but I am not stupid.
> I have received quite a lot of messages here where people thought I look feminine, , where they thought I was gay but never androgynous.
> ...


I have been (aggressively) chased by a lot of homosexual men. Especially when I was young. 
I was actually just hoping to hear that these women were bi because sometimes I think that there is something not right with me but I can't find out why. I never had sex with them though, they just tried to kiss me out of nothing and told me that I was beautiful. So they never approached me in an aggressive way. 
I have felt myself sexually attracted to only one person in my life. Now I am 32 now, so that strikes me as odd. I don't mind waiting for another to come by, but I think that will never happen again. That is not my fear talking, that is reality wise thinking.

Thank you for your time. I loved reading this thread and I wish you all the best with your partner.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Why aren't there that many femme-femme or femme-lipstick couples? Every time I see a femme (or lipstick) they are always with either a butch, ****, or tomboy.


Firstly, tomboys are sexy. Secondly, my sister is feminine and she only dates feminine women. So there's a hole your theory.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Why aren't there that many femme-femme or femme-lipstick couples? Every time I see a femme (or lipstick) they are always with either a butch, ****, or tomboy.


My first girlfriend was a femme. My second is more tomboyish, but I didn't pick her because of her looks.

There are a lot of reasons for what you're observing that I can think of. The truth of the matter is:

- "Femme" lesbians are not as prominent.

In my small town, I know very few. Most lesbians I know are not feminine at all - or butch. I wouldn't call my fiance butch, unless it's... "soft butch" or something. Most of the couples I know have no "butch" or "femme" role in their relationship. We've bypassed the time in the 50s where you had to be one or the other. I chose to call myself femme because I identify fully with the term and don't feel like I have to change myself in order to fit it. I don't think anyone should change themselves to fit anything - because most people aren't going to fit into those two categories, and that's okay.

- They're not as visible or obvious.

If you see two feminine girls walking together, are you going to assume they're a couple? Most people don't show a lot of PDA, and my girlfriend and I were no exception. When we did hold hands we were often propositioned. People tend to assume that two feminine women who are "together" are either bisexual or wanting attention.

So, to answer your question - there may not be as many of these couples (because there aren't as many femme lesbians), but there are likely many more than what you've seen.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> I have felt myself sexually attracted to only one person in my life. Now I am 32 now, so that strikes me as odd. I don't mind waiting for another to come by, but I think that will never happen again. That is not my fear talking, that is reality wise thinking.
> 
> Thank you for your time. I loved reading this thread and I wish you all the best with your partner.


Thank you. I'm 27 and I've only felt sexually attracted to two people in my lifetime - so don't think that you're odd. I'm a very picky person as well, it takes a lot for me to be truly interested in someone. I was only lucky that one of them ended up being the one for me.

One reason why lesbians often go for gay men (I know you're not gay, but let me explain), is because there's a subconscious realization that they aren't a "threat" (in the sense of - a gay man will not seriously hit on them). Perhaps your lack of sexual interest in them gives them more of an affinity toward you that they mistake for attraction. Just a theory.

Either way, good luck. I think you will find someone, and I hope it works out for you when you do.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

Snow White said:


> Thank you. I'm 27 and I've only felt sexually attracted to two people in my lifetime - so don't think that you're odd. I'm a very picky person as well, it takes a lot for me to be truly interested in someone. I was only lucky that one of them ended up being the one for me.
> 
> One reason why lesbians often go for gay men (I know you're not gay, but let me explain), is because there's a subconscious realization that they aren't a "threat" (in the sense of - a gay man will not seriously hit on them). Perhaps your lack of sexual interest in them gives them more of an affinity toward you that they mistake for attraction. Just a theory.
> 
> Either way, good luck. I think you will find someone, and I hope it works out for you when you do.


Fuck! That might be it! That I am not a threat. Oops, sorry I said fuck 
I have heard a lot that women never felt intimidated by me because I never want to be in control of them. Especially the last woman I dated, the one I have found myself sexually attracted to, was basically impossible to get with all due respect. But she liked me because she felt that I was not a threat even though I was (sexually) attracted to her. She called it my lack of testosterone. 

Thanks!


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

android654 said:


> Firstly, tomboys are sexy. Secondly, my sister is feminine and she only dates feminine women. So there's a hole your theory.


Lol, it wasn't a theory, just my observation.

Also, I know what you're thinking of when you think tomboy, and it isn't what I'm talking about. When I say tomboy, I mean basketball shorts, jersey, and sideways ballcap, not Natalie Portman with a Tinkerbell shave.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Lol, it wasn't a theory, just my observation.
> 
> Also, I know what you're thinking of when you think tomboy, and it isn't what I'm talking about. When I say tomboy, I mean basketball shorts, jersey, and sideways ballcap,


Yeah, I knew what you meant and it still has a big fucking potential to be sexy.



> not Natalie Portman with a Tinkerbell shave.


I think you mean a pixie cut.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

How much does people's ignorance irritate you in the following aspects:

1. Concerning the idea that all lesbians are bull *****?
2. Concerning the shock factor that comes with you telling others of your preference for women?

Also, has anyone ever said, "...but you're such a pretty girl. I just don't understand..." as if being pretty has anything to do with who you're attracted to, lulz.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> How much does people's ignorance irritate you in the following aspects:


*1. Concerning the idea that all lesbians are bull *****?* I feel sorry for the idiot who is_ *1)*_ So narrow minded to think such a statement is correct and _*2)*_ Attention whoreish enough to think their opinion merits my listening to it. It does irritate me, but it's very rarely worth indulging someone like that. I once had someone rant to me about how if marriage equality was passed that we might as well legalize domestic abuse since _"You know that's what so many of them go through"_. My blood was boiling, but I just simply stated _"Just so you know, I'm a lesbian and not abusive"_ and walked away. 
*2. Concerning the shock factor that comes with you telling others of your preference for women?* I haven't had much reactions that I'd classify as "shock", more like quiet acceptance. I don't do open displays of emotion well, but it wouldn't irritate me; would more make me uncomfortable and go _"Ok, lets move along now"_.

*Also, has anyone ever said, "...but you're such a pretty girl. I just don't understand..." as if being pretty has anything to do with who you're attracted to, lulz.* Nope.


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

Can you tell if another woman is a lesbian right away? Are you ever fooled?

I'm asking because I've personally had women think I was straight and a few think that I'm a lesbian. An example: I dated a bisexual guy several years ago. We went to a gay/lesbian club one night to watch a drag show (it was awesome, btw). When we were in line for the restrooms, two girls came up to us and said that I was obviously straight...and said my boyfriend was obviously gay. 

Then there was the awkward dinner out with my parents years ago, when the waitress aggressively and blatantly hit on me. 

Have you ever mistakenly hit on a straight female? If you can tell if a woman is straight or a lesbian, how? Is it intuition or experience, or something else?


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## DemonD (Jun 12, 2012)

What is a "femme" lesbian, as opposed to a "regular" lesbian?

And how do you feel that society views you as a lesbian?


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

@_Snakecharmer:_

*Have you ever mistakenly hit on a straight female? If you can tell if a woman is straight or a lesbian, how? Is it intuition or experience, or something else?*

Nope. I'm usually one to start, subtly, flirting and see how it goes before blatantly hitting on someone else. I'd be dishonest if I said it isn't awkward when people hit on me and assume I'm straight, so I really try to not make assumptions about others sexuality.


@_DemonD:_

*What is a "femme" lesbian, as opposed to a "regular" lesbian?* Well, I think that a femme lesbian is as much a "regular" lesbian as someone who considers themselves as butch, stud or lipstick. We're all bound by the fact that our sexual orientation is towards our same sex. I don't see labels, and my attraction has gone all over the place. 

*And how do you feel that society views you as a lesbian?* A woman who prefers other women? I don't think about it all that much, to be honest.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> How much does people's ignorance irritate you in the following aspects:
> 
> 1. Concerning the idea that all lesbians are bull *****?
> 2. Concerning the shock factor that comes with you telling others of your preference for women?
> ...


You know, I don't usually get irritated by ignorance. I like disarming people, and I feel a little flattered when people are shocked. I don't know. I don't seem to be the norm, and I like that.

I've had a lot of people express shock that I'm a lesbian because of how I look, because I'm "small" or "petite" or "feminine" - even "you have such a high voice!" (Yeah, don't get that one...) I think there is the misconception that women are lesbians because they can't land a man, or some such nonsense, and perhaps that's where it originates. However, I don't mind it so much. If I can educate them on how some lesbians look, I'd be happy to do it.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Snakecharmer said:


> Can you tell if another woman is a lesbian right away? Are you ever fooled?
> 
> I'm asking because I've personally had women think I was straight and a few think that I'm a lesbian. An example: I dated a bisexual guy several years ago. We went to a gay/lesbian club one night to watch a drag show (it was awesome, btw). When we were in line for the restrooms, two girls came up to us and said that I was obviously straight...and said my boyfriend was obviously gay.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, no, I can't tell right away if someone is gay or not. I wish I could, because that would be amazing. I tend to assume everyone is straight, to be honest, because that's how it is in the Bible belt. Those who are gay are usually in denial or in the closet, so I'd rather not go there. If someone IS gay, they generally make it known one way or the other... otherwise we'd all just be tip-toeing around each other. I don't make it known until I'm in conversation or if it comes up somehow, which is rare. However, if a guy hits on me, I make it known pretty fast to spare him the effort. ...Sometimes. Sometimes my ego needs it. 

I've never hit on a woman until I've known her sexual orientation. It's just polite, imo. But I mean, you can't always know that... and I have respect for those men and women who put themselves out there, aggressively or not. I learn to take it as a compliment rather than get irritated and uncomfortable if men hit on me. I guess because I get annoyed when other women are so disgusted after being hit on by a woman, as if their sexuality is being questioned in some way - it's not any different than being hit on by a man you're not interested in. You just say, "not interested" and move on - be flattered. That's how I feel about it, anyway.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

DemonD said:


> What is a "femme" lesbian, as opposed to a "regular" lesbian?
> 
> And how do you feel that society views you as a lesbian?


A feminine lesbian that still falls under the category as a regular lesbian.  It's just a label.

Um... I don't really know. I guess it depends on where you are. Here, I feel as though I'm viewed as strange... foreign. Confusing. But I'm in the South.


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## Choice (May 19, 2012)

*Only if you wouldn't mind.*



Doll said:


> 1. I knew for sure that I was a lesbian when I was about 24, after I met my second girlfriend. That pretty much solidified things for me.
> 2. I had crushes. As soon as the relationship turned physical, though, I'd immediately break it off. I had a string of three month relationships that was a source of many jokes in my family. After three months, the guy would usually want sex, and I'd break up with them in order to avoid it. I think the closest I got to really liking a boy (I wouldn't say love), was a particularly girlish guy that I didn't feel disgust with. But not feeling disgust doesn't equal liking... so... I don't know. I guess no?


What were you disgusted by?

Why three months? Was there a golden rule or something?

Many jokes - any good ones?

What does being feminine mean to you? 

You mention a girlish guy - how was he girlish?

Would you be attracted to MTF / XTF trans peeps under any circumstances? (Hey, still women! *shrug*)

Most attractive qualities in a girl in your opinion?


(Whew! I managed to stay on topic and not start spamming. You really shouldn't tempt people with that "anything" word.)


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Almost said:


> What were you disgusted by?


I don't know what it was, exactly. I can't really pinpoint it. I just always felt "gross" and turned off whenever I was touched by guys, as if sexuality was dirty somehow (it could be something as simple as holding hands). I wasn't ashamed of sexual things, so I didn't really understand why at the time... I just concluded that something had to be wrong with me, and maybe eventually I would just "settle" and deal with my unexplainable squeamishness. I was basically disgusted by any display of sexual attraction made by a boyfriend/romantic interest to me. I was happiest remaining platonic.



> Why three months? Was there a golden rule or something?


I didn't have a _conscious_ rule... not like, "oh, tomorrow is the three month mark..." But in my experience, if you haven't put out and it's been months, any SO would start to question it. I think it was when I started to feel pressured to either have sex or explain myself, I would slowly withdraw from the relationship until it either died out on its own or until something in particular forced me to break it off. I feel slightly ashamed to admit that I've broken up days before Valentine's Day for reasons as simple as not wanting to bother myself with finding a present.



> Many jokes - any good ones?


Not really. They were mostly of the playful variety, like, "well, she kicked another one to the curb..." and my dad jokingly telling my distant relatives that he never bothers to meet my boyfriends because they're never around for long.



> What does being feminine mean to you?


I think, being feminine for me is felt by the way I dress and the way I express myself. I don't know what it might mean to others. I suppose there's a "softness" to femininity that I find attractive, as far as putting on my own self-image - lace, pearls, ribbons, ect. Not that men can't and haven't worn these things, but to me they are sweet and feminine and pretty and I like looking like a girly-girl. I like having the appearance of being "innocent" and being able to do it well. So, to me, being "feminine" is almost a label that I put on myself but at the same time make use of, otherwise it would be looked down upon. I don't know if that makes sense or not. Sometimes using stereotypes can be empowering, I suppose, so I try to use the traditional ideas of "feminine" and apply it to my life so people can see that feminine lesbians can and do exist. A lot of lesbians have looked down on me for looking like a "straight girl", but I don't see why I have to fall underneath a different stereotype in order to avoid the "straight" stereotype. That, to me, doesn't seem any better than applying traditional feminine characteristics to myself. 

...I think I got completely derailed from the question. My point is, I see feminine as being an expression of different things, and I chose to express it by way of clothing and behavior. There are so many different ways you can express being feminine, though, or ways to define it, that I couldn't really begin to explain the term just by itself.



> You mention a girlish guy - how was he girlish?


Girlish-looking, in a physical way. Usually softer features, not muscular at all, longer hair, an androgynous sort of look. 



> Would you be attracted to MTF / XTF trans peeps under any circumstances? (Hey, still women! *shrug*)


Maybe. I've never met a MTF transexual in person before. Most of them are usually attracted to men, though, not other women. But if they identified as lesbians, then I don't see why not? It might be a bit difficult to be with a MTF who hadn't had the surgery because they are physically a male (and that is part of sex and sexual attraction, like it or not), but sexuality is fluid and I don't think it would necessarily be a dealbreaker. It would depend on the person. I'm not close-minded to it, though.



> Most attractive qualities in a girl in your opinion?


Confidence. Strong opinions. Goodness. Authenticity. Sincerity. Strength.



> (Whew! I managed to stay on topic and not start spamming. You really shouldn't tempt people with that "anything" word.)


I did feel a little wary of it after I posted the thread, but so far everyone has been polite.


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## jdbullet23 (Jan 25, 2012)

I have a question. Or a couple. And I think that this was a freaking genius idea for a thread, by the way. I'm a butch lesbian, and always curious ...

What in general attracts you to butches, or women as a whole? I guess I'm directing this toward femmes who are into butches, specifically. What makes you dig a butch type woman as opposed to another femme?

And ... I'm usually not too keen on labeling within labels ... but do you have a preference of butch? Like, stone, soft butch, chapstick, androgynous, sport ****? That sort of thing? If yeah, why? Or do you just go for women based on a more butch mantality?

Very interesting.


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

Are you fine with living in a state that doesn't have same sex marriage legal? Don't you feel that you're betraying yourself in a way? They don't recognize your rights yet you work and pay taxes to benefit that society. Eh?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Oh noes! I am late to the party, and most of my questions have been addressed already. But, for femme lesbians that are attracted to butch lesbians, what do you find attractive about them? I am hopelessly attracted to Butch lesbians, and I am a heterosexual woman lol. I am curious if there are any parallels between what attracts us to them. 

Also, if any butch lesbian drops by, do start a thread if time allows. I have quite a few questions for you ladies.


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## scorpion (Dec 8, 2012)

Hey fellow lesbian here. 
And excuse me if this has been already asked but . . .
So about being femme. Why do you think you are "femme" as opposed to "butch"? I personally associate femininity with my futile attempts to make myself more conventionally feminine and straight. (I STILL act fairly "feminine" in ways I don't think I would have naturally if I had grown up with the feeling I didn't have to be "normal" to fit in. Alas.) My style is slightly more butch though . . . I guess? with me leaning towards more earthy & neutral tones. Is it like that for you? It's just the style you feel the most comfortable with? And how does the unwanted attraction from guys factor in if that's the case?


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## phony (Nov 28, 2012)

What's your opinion on straight girls that "experiment"?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

jdbullet23 said:


> I have a question. Or a couple. And I think that this was a freaking genius idea for a thread, by the way. I'm a butch lesbian, and always curious ...






> What in general attracts you to butches, or women as a whole? I guess I'm directing this toward femmes who are into butches, specifically. What makes you dig a butch type woman as opposed to another femme?


I'm dating what some might consider to be a butch girl... or a "soft butch" if we're getting into specifics. I don't know, you might have to tell me... I have an album with a few pictures of her in it. What attracted me to her, though, wasn't really the way she looked... but she did have a few characteristics that are probably more present in women identifying as butch. She's strong, confident, a little aggressive. She has traits that I admire but lack myself, if that makes sense. She's very ambitious and hard-working, optimistic, and genuine. I wish I could direct this more toward her looks, but those really did play a small part. I've dated femmes and butches, so I guess I'm just not particular.



> And ... I'm usually not too keen on labeling within labels ... but do you have a preference of butch? Like, stone, soft butch, chapstick, androgynous, sport ****? That sort of thing? If yeah, why? Or do you just go for women based on a more butch mantality?


Androgynous, like whoa. I just find the idea of someone being able to pull off that look well to be quite rare and admirable. And I like to admire rare things.  But as a whole, I really don't rule anyone out. The only issue I'd have with a stone butch is that they typically don't like to be touched, and that might bother me because I don't usually like limitations or rules like that... they tend to make me feel constrained. Other than that, I would date anyone in any of those categories, if they fit with me personality-wise.



Madam said:


> Are you fine with living in a state that doesn't have same sex marriage legal? Don't you feel that you're betraying yourself in a way? They don't recognize your rights yet you work and pay taxes to benefit that society. Eh?


No, I'm not okay with it at all. Unfortunately, my family lives here and my job is here AND my SO just got a wonderful job here, so I'm pretty much stuck here for the time being. Sometimes I fantasize about moving up to one of the states that have it legalized, and my SO and I want to randomly go on a road trip and get legally married, but yeah... it's a little hard. I live in Florida, so I'm pretty much as far South as you can get... but not as far South to where it's like, not the South anymore. It kind of sucks. D: Some of the larger cities here have domestic partnership benefits, but Tallahassee isn't one of them.



Boss said:


> Oh noes! I am late to the party, and most of my questions have been addressed already. But, for femme lesbians that are attracted to butch lesbians, what do you find attractive about them? I am hopelessly attracted to Butch lesbians, and I am a heterosexual woman lol. I am curious if there are any parallels between what attracts us to them.


I just like that they're different. That they can look a certain way yet be women. I don't know. There's an interesting and alluring contradiction to butch lesbians that I often find attractive. You don't get what you see, I guess.  It's often more in personality, though, because most of the butch lesbians I know IRL I am not attracted to at all based on nuances of their personality that I wouldn't be able to get past... and I could say the same thing about the few femme lesbians I know, too... so sometimes personality can kill it. 



scorpion said:


> Hey fellow lesbian here.


Hi!



> So about being femme. Why do you think you are "femme" as opposed to "butch"? I personally associate femininity with my futile attempts to make myself more conventionally feminine and straight. (I STILL act fairly "feminine" in ways I don't think I would have naturally if I had grown up with the feeling I didn't have to be "normal" to fit in. Alas.) My style is slightly more butch though . . . I guess? with me leaning towards more earthy & neutral tones. Is it like that for you? It's just the style you feel the most comfortable with? And how does the unwanted attraction from guys factor in if that's the case?


I think if you're acting in ways that are contrary to how you are and those ways don't feel natural to you, then you shouldn't do it. I think forcing yourself to be feminine so you can fit in and look "straight" is unfortunate D: I think everyone should wear what they want to wear and be who they are. I consider myself a femme because I enjoy wearing those things and having that appearance. I feel like it does reflect the person I want to reflect and the person I am... it isn't about fitting in or looking straight, or about guys at all. I don't really mind guys hitting on me, to be honest... it's no different than a woman hitting on me that I'm not interested in, you know? I'm not really guy phobic, I guess... I've had a few men (and women) be aggressive when hitting on me and all of them received the same disgust factor. If I'm not interested I'm just not... it just happens to be that I'm never interested in guys. But for a guy to randomly compliment me, well, I can handle that. 



phony said:


> What's your opinion on straight girls that "experiment"?


As long as they're upfront about it, fine. Not everyone is going to know how they feel unless they try it. I don't want to be an experiment, but there are plenty of other women who would step up to the plate.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Boss said:


> Oh noes! I am late to the party, and most of my questions have been addressed already. But, for femme lesbians that are attracted to butch lesbians, what do you find attractive about them? I am hopelessly attracted to Butch lesbians, and I am a heterosexual woman lol. I am curious if there are any parallels between what attracts us to them.
> 
> Also, if any butch lesbian drops by, do start a thread if time allows. I have quite a few questions for you ladies.


Boss... you sound like you're attracted to the gender, not the sex. Specifically speaking? The "male" or "masculine" gender. Some people use the term androphile to refer to that kind of attraction, but it is a sticky term with a rather evolving history.

And, you know. Just saying~

Though if you don't mind me, what attracts you to certain men? What exactly do _you_ like about butch women?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

saintless said:


> Though if you don't mind me, what attracts you to certain men? What exactly do _you_ like about butch women?


I'd like to know this too.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

Doll said:


> I just like that they're different. That they can look a certain way yet be women. I don't know. There's an interesting and alluring contradiction to butch lesbians that I often find attractive. You don't get what you see, I guess.  It's often more in personality, though, because most of the butch lesbians I know IRL I am not attracted to at all based on nuances of their personality that I wouldn't be able to get past... and I could say the same thing about the few femme lesbians I know, too... so sometimes personality can kill it


I'm not sure if you've already written about this, but can you describe what kind of personality traits attract you specifically to the butch women whom you find to be an "alluring contradiction"? As a butch lesbian myself, I am often told by many femmes that I am not "hard" enough for them (which sounds much more sexual than I meant it to lol). They say that I'm not aggressive enough, and that I don't have the _balls_ to "put them in their place". I don't have the alpha swagger that they're looking for. 

At first glance I'm just your average butch. I love to play sports. I'm immensely competitive. I love the fact that I'm physically strong, and I desire to become even stronger. I never wear make-up, skirts, or dresses. Etc. However, on the inside I am very gentle (except when it comes to politics and social issues  I am a natural nurturer. And I'm most certainly not prone to being dominant (or submissive), and I refuse to exact any sort of power over the woman I'm in a relationship with. I don't want to conquer a woman. I only want to love and be with her, for she is my equal, and I am hers.

I guess what I want to know is if you are only attracted to butch women who have dominant personalities? What do you think of butch women who are extremely masculine on the outside, but extremely gentle and nurturing on the inside? And I'm not sure if you have any other femme friends who are into butch women, but if you do, what is the general consensus amongst them as far as what type of personalities they are looking for in a masculine lesbian?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> I'm not sure if you've already written about this, but can you describe what kind of personality traits attract you specifically to the butch women whom you find to be an "alluring contradiction"? As a butch lesbian myself, I am often told by many femmes that I am not "hard" enough for them (which sounds much more sexual than I meant it to lol). They say that I'm not aggressive enough, and that I don't have the _balls_ to "put them in their place". I don't have the alpha swagger that they're looking for.


lol @ the "hard" comment.  Um, well, I don't think all women would feel that way. I do like someone who's a little more brash and aggressive than I am, outwardly at least, because I'm somewhat quiet and introverted and I need someone to balance me out socially. Inside, I can be very aggressive and extremely emotional. My SO is emotional too, but she gets angry when she gets emotional (I just cry). Our aggressions are different. Women who think that you aren't "butch" enough are probably just looking for that fit. It's also hard for women (lesbians included) to completely let go of finding an ideal partner that's "man" enough (even if they're looking for a woman - the unconscious need to find a man is still there). This might be why they think you're too sensitive for them. Most women like the idea of someone coming along and forcefully sweeping them off their feet; it's romantic, and it's what they're told is supposed to happen. There are woman out there who will love that you're not aggressive, though - just be wary of falling into a relationship where your SO is domineering. I think it's important for both partners to be able to put each other in their place when necessary, or someone will feel walked over.



> At first glance I'm just your average butch. I love to play sports. I'm immensely competitive. I love the fact that I'm physically strong, and I desire to become even stronger. I never wear make-up, skirts, or dresses. Etc. However, on the inside I am very gentle (except when it comes to politics and social issues  I am a natural nurturer. And I'm most certainly not prone to being dominant (or submissive), and I refuse to exact any sort of power over the woman I'm in a relationship with. I don't want to conquer a woman. I only want to love and be with her, for she is my equal, and I am hers.


I think this is a wonderful attitude to have. I don't think that being aggressive necessarily has to equal outward aggression though - it can be communicated with a simple attitude, confidence, and being self-assured. I find those traits attractive in women. However, don't lose your nurturing side. Part of the issue I have with my current fiance is that she is not nurturing AT ALL. She is very impatient with my emotions because she doesn't know how to handle them. She has what might be considered a more masculine personality, but it's what I need so I can be balanced, so that's just what works for us.



> I guess what I want to know is if you are only attracted to butch women who have dominant personalities? What do you think of butch women who are extremely masculine on the outside, but extremely gentle and nurturing on the inside? And I'm not sure if you have any other femme friends who are into butch women, but if you do, what is the general consensus amongst them as far as what type of personalities they are looking for in a masculine lesbian?


Honestly, I've only dated maybe two butch women? The first one I didn't get to know very well, we just didn't click, and the second one I'm marrying, so...  I don't have a range of experience. I do have a friend who's a very strong butch on the outside but very gentle and emotional on the inside. I don't know that I would necessarily be attracted to someone like that, because I need a strong person emotionally to put up with me and to be able to be very firm and logical and strong-willed so I don't become even more volatile. Out of all the butch women, my SO and another friend of ours are the only ones who seem to be the more aggressive of the couple... most of my butch friends are paired with femmes who are more socially gregarious, friendly, confident, and not as emotional/kind/gentle as they are. The only problem is that they're both kind of bitchy. So be careful! You want to find a femme who's going to love you for you, but don't let yourself be stepped on and don't be her slave.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

@_KINGoftheAMAZONS_

You sound perfect. I'm kind of the reverse of you; I have a very different personality inside than my outward appearance would lead one to believe. I'm not interested in dating at the moment, but whenever I see a beautiful butch woman, I can't help but think that I'm probably not what they're looking for. I know not everyone's the same, and I haven't been on the "scene" enough to really get past the stereotypes society has fed me in that regard.

I just wanted to let you know you shouldn't worry about about that. I'd love to find someone who was my opposite in personality to keep some fire and balance present in a relationship; it's hot, hot *HOT*..


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@KINGoftheAMAZONS & @Doll - This is a great example of why I don't understand why people hold so strongly onto their narrowly and sometimes ambiguously defined notions of gender and sex. I mean if you just watch one conversation about these things unfold, you will see poor alignment of ideas and sometimes contradictions. 

My mom, as a example of how gender roles are terrible, is not necessarily your typical female in the sense she rarely wears makeup, doesn't care for shopping, nor does she care for 'girly' things like pink and frills. However, she does like her skirts and dresses, decorating the house, lace, soft colors, and most other things associated with being a woman. She's not into sports, and she's nto exactly great with handy tools. A woman, eh? However, she is the alpha of the house, not my father. My father is certainly the aggressive one, loves sports, attempts to fix every house project by himself. He is not the alpha male though, even when he yells at the top of his lungs during fights with my mother. My mother certainty has the more adamant personality, the 'logic'-based mind. Though, she is also the breadwinner, holding a top administrating job while my father doesn't even hold a college degree. He has a retail job now, but he was a Mr. Mom for most of my life. 

My point is that personally I would never look on a butch woman for not being "hard" enough because on the inside she's simply more of a nurturer. Hell, one might need to be gentle and empathic to be a good nurturer, but it also takes some strong fucking backbone to be one. You'd be a crappy nurturer if you faint at any loud noise. (Alluding to Victorian ideals there.)

I have a thing for strong personalities myself, no matter the sex of the person in question. However, I consider emotional range to be one of those 'strong' traits. Think I mind people who aren't afraid to be straightforward and at times brash? Not at all. I almost prefer them, but if you don't have enough sense to determine when it's alright to cry and when someone just needs a hug... then you are a lumpy turd of a person---soft and stinky. :tongue: 

People like the above might seem to be a contradiction to some, but I find the average often satisfies the above even if in a minimal way. Does this mean I think everyone has a 'strong' personality. Hell no. Strong personalities are bold and resolute about what they do. The average person might encompass the above, but they tend to be wishy-washy about the whole thing, either not knowing when to stick to their guns or not knowing enough sense to reason through tough situations. 

For god's sake, the strongest person I know gets weak at the sight of puppies and kitties, and more power to her for having the decency to admire the animal kingdom. 

So, um. All in all... I don't think most people fully understand the words they use when speaking of gender roles nor understand what truly makes a great person great. This is not to say though that there is something wrong with wanting a butch lesbian to come sweeping you off your feet in a moment of conquering power. If you like that, good for you. However, don't criticize others who fail to be that way and then attack their identity. Most likely, it's going to be unfounded.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

saintless said:


> So, um. All in all... I don't think most people fully understand the words they use when speaking of gender roles nor understand what truly makes a great person great. This is not to say though that there is something wrong with wanting a butch lesbian to come sweeping you off your feet in a moment of conquering power. If you like that, good for you. However, don't criticize others who fail to be that way and then attack their identity. Most likely, it's going to be unfounded.


I agree. 

Gender roles are very fluid (as they should be), and no one should have to adhere to them. Unfortunately, many people still do, and many people are still stuck on looking for what they "should" or are "expected" to look for - sometimes even subconsciously. I'm not saying that this is okay. I try very hard not to do it myself. But I'm not going to deny that it happens, because the first step to changing it is to point it out.

People are going to disagree on the traits a "good" person should have, and sometimes "good" people aren't good matches for other people who are looking for "not good" people. Definitions are hazy and often contradictory. The point is, people should discover what the right type of person is for them and what they want, rather than what they're told or shown to want.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Doll said:


> I agree.
> 
> Gender roles are very fluid (as they should be), and no one should have to adhere to them. Unfortunately, many people still do, and many people are still stuck on looking for what they "should" or are "expected" to look for - sometimes even subconsciously. I'm not saying that this is okay. I try very hard not to do it myself. But I'm not going to deny that it happens, because the first step to changing it is to point it out.
> 
> People are going to disagree on the traits a "good" person should have, and sometimes "good" people aren't good matches for other people who are looking for "not good" people. Definitions are hazy and often contradictory. The point is, people should discover what the right type of person is for them and what they want, rather than what they're told or shown to want.


Yeh. I shouldn't have use the phrase "what makes a great person great". That is subjective and separate from any possible formulation of gender roles. That was a moment of weak laziness on my part. -___-

I think I meant to say "what makes a person a person". Again, it's not about what people like. It's about how people identify themselves and the false assumption that one has the right to attack that when they don't even know what they are going on about. 

It's also about, as you said, people be want they are. For every characteristic, there is a complimenting one whether it be in terms of supplementary or antithetical. Subjecting people to narrow standards is ridiculous for everyone has the opportunity to grow in any direction feasible. And, strength doesn't just come from aggression as many believe. It comes fully developing in the direction you chose to grow. 

Yeh. That's what I meant... I think.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

saintless said:


> Yeh. I shouldn't have use the phrase "what makes a great person great". That is subjective and separate from any possible formulation of gender roles. That was a moment of weak laziness on my part. -___-
> 
> I think I meant to say "what makes a person a person". Again, it's not about what people like. It's about how people identify themselves and the false assumption that one has the right to attack that when they don't even know what they are going on about.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think there are so many types of strength. I don't know if you've ever read _Gone with the Wind_, but it's a prime example of two women with vastly different characteristics and who are both extremely strong - yet, only one of them is SEEN as strong, the other is seen as quiet and "feminine" - the "weaker" of the two. My SO, on the outside, appears to be the "strong" and "aggressive" one, but some people might be surprised to see who does what behind closed doors. That's why I hate the question, "which one of you is the guy?" 

...neither of us. That's the point.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

voicetrocity said:


> @_KINGoftheAMAZONS_


Thank you for your kind and encouraging words 



> but whenever I see a beautiful butch woman, I can't help but think that I'm probably not what they're looking for.


I know exactly what you mean. Personally, I'm attracted to butches, femmes, andros, transwomen, and transmen. I don't generally have a problem with androgynous women. Butch women act like it is unnatural for two masculine lesbians to be together. And I don't have any experience with transwomen and transmen. But when it comes to femmes, I don't even try anymore lol. I am trying to work on my assertiveness, but I don't think I'll ever have the dominant personality that many of them are looking for in a butch. It just isn't me. 

But in the past I've often gone after "feelers". Do you think that I'll have better luck with "thinking" women? I'm not looking to be dominated myself. I just want equality and mutuality.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

saintless said:


> My point is that personally I would never look on a butch woman for not being "hard" enough because on the inside she's simply more of a nurturer. Hell, one might need to be gentle and empathic to be a good nurturer, but it also takes some strong fucking backbone to be one. You'd be a crappy nurturer if you faint at any loud noise. (Alluding to Victorian ideals there.)


I hope I didn't make myself sound like someone who would faint at the slightest hint of adversity:tongue:. I'm a natural at nurturing, but I'm also a natural at being a protector. Is it weird that my heart finds satisfaction when people trust me enough to not only show me their fear, but to also cling to me and hide their head in the crook of my arm as though they want me to protect them from danger? 



> My mom, as a example of how gender roles are terrible, is not necessarily your typical female in the sense she rarely wears makeup, doesn't care for shopping, nor does she care for 'girly' things like pink and frills. However, she does like her skirts and dresses, decorating the house, lace, soft colors, and most other things associated with being a woman. She's not into sports, and she's nto exactly great with handy tools. A woman, eh? However, she is the alpha of the house, not my father. My father is certainly the aggressive one, loves sports, attempts to fix every house project by himself. He is not the alpha male though, even when he yells at the top of his lungs during fights with my mother. My mother certainty has the more adamant personality, the 'logic'-based mind.


Hahaha I think you've just predicted what my future relationships will look like. Though I don't believe in the alpha/beta nonsense. I do believe that I'll most likely be the more calm one, and I would like to find someone who is more assertive. It would be awesome to find a femme who is assertive, because it would just be a big "fuck you" to the whole gender role bullshit


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> Thank you for your kind and encouraging words


You're very welcome. 





> I know exactly what you mean. Personally, I'm attracted to butches, femmes, andros, transwomen, and transmen. I don't generally have a problem with androgynous women. Butch women act like it is unnatural for two masculine lesbians to be together. And I don't have any experience with transwomen and transmen. But when it comes to femmes, I don't even try anymore lol. I am trying to work on my assertiveness, but I don't think I'll ever have the dominant personality that many of them are looking for in a butch. It just isn't me.


 It's a shame you feel you need to work on your assertiveness to find someone. I can be intimidatingly assertive at times, and I don't really feel the need to change that. But I digress, I really don't think there's anything wrong with how you described yourself, I find that combination of masculine and soft to be one of the sexiest things on the planet. :blushed:



> But in the past I've often gone after "feelers". Do you think that I'll have better luck with "thinking" women? I'm not looking to be dominated myself. I just want equality and mutuality.


 I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem with equality and mutuality. I also don't want to be dominant/smother someone either. It also seems that I know a lot of feelers; so, yeah, there's probably something to that. It couldn't hurt. 

Now, a question for you:

What would you think of an assertive femme?


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> I hope I didn't make myself sound like someone who would faint at the slightest hint of adversity:tongue:.


Nah. I was just imposing stereotypical views into my posts. Many think that nurturers are always very delicate people with big, bleeding hearts. Maybe I just have a funny view of the world, but I don't see the big difference between a nurturer and a protector besides the archetypal view that one is a saintly mother and the other is knight with a giant sword. Essentially, I think both embody view similar personalities such that both need the same kind of traits to succeed at what they're doing. I was trying to express that earlier. I am not always as effective at communicating my thoughts regardless of how articulate I may sound. 



> I'm a natural at nurturing, but I'm also a natural at being a protector. Is it weird that my heart finds satisfaction when people trust me enough to not only show me their fear, but to also cling to me and hide their head in the crook of my arm as though they want me to protect them from danger?


Nope. But, again. That sounds like something both a nurturer and a protector should be expected to do: not show fear and physically comfort the ones they care for.



> Hahaha I think you've just predicted what my future relationships will look like. Though I don't believe in the alpha/beta nonsense. I do believe that I'll most likely be the more calm one, and I would like to find someone who is more assertive. It would be awesome to find a femme who is assertive, because it would just be a big "fuck you" to the whole gender role bullshit


Dude. I know a handful of assertive femmes, though I cannot say most of them are lesbians. However, if straight girls can fit that personality why can't gay ones? Again, I don't understand how so many people can continue to buy into gender roles. I mean you have to willing look the other direction. Blatantly as well. -______-



KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> But in the past I've often gone after "feelers". Do you think that I'll have better luck with "thinking" women? I'm not looking to be dominated myself. I just want equality and mutuality.


Excuse my diction, but fuck that. I am pretty certain I am "feeler" though sometimes I wonder if I am more INTP. (I haven't reviewed anything related to cognitive functions for a while.) However despite my occasional tendency to be indecisive and a nervous wreck, I would be damned with exuding the aura of dominance was beyond me. Us Fi-doms have a particular manner of being tenacious at times. 

Though... I am neither femme nor butch. "Chapstick" perhaps. *shrugs* I like my middle of the road life, which is unfortunately why I advocate for the disbarment of gender roles at times because none of it fits me in any accord. Gosh... now I sound so selfish. :blushed:


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## surgery (Apr 16, 2010)

How frequently do you masturbate, if ever? Do you have a strong opinion on lesbians who do?
Do you watch pornography or read erotic material? Do you have a strong opinion on lesbians who do?


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

voicetrocity said:


> It's a shame you feel you need to work on your assertiveness to find someone. I can be intimidatingly assertive at times, and I don't really feel the need to change that.


Lol, Actually I'm not working on my assertiveness to increase my chances at love. I've come to realize, with the help of some friends, that even though I'm assertive (or quite aggressive actually) when it comes to protecting others, I'm entirely too gentle and patient when it comes to protecting "myself" against the people who manipulate my kindness. And I have to agree that I do need to learn that it is not selfish for me to stand up for my own well being, as I do for others. This is probably an INFJ thing 

I don't think you should need to change your assertive nature. I've been surrounded by assertive people my whole life (mostly men though). I have to admit that I do admire this aspect of their personalities profoundly. Especially in the case of women who are comfortable enough to let their assertive natures sore for all to witness. I've always been attracted to such confidence. This probably explains why I had crushes on my fellow basketball players when I was in school, hahaha. They were all fairly assertive.



> I really don't think there's anything wrong with how you described yourself, I find that combination of masculine and soft to be a one of the sexiest things on the planet. :blushed:


Well, perhaps there is hope in this world for us gentle butches after all.



> What would you think of an, assertive femme?


Honestly, nothing is more beautiful to me than an assertive woman (especially femmes). We know that in this pervasive culture it is taught that femmes are not supposed to be assertive. They are supposed to be submissive and meek. But I say that this is sexist bullshit, and when I happen to come upon a "femme" who is not only comfortable, but proud of the fact that she is an assertive woman, I fall into deep admiration. Regardless of whether she is straight or queer. Again, it's the confidence. It's the boldness she projects as she tells the world to eat shit if they don't like the fact that she refuses to submit to them. She doesn't suffer the bullshit of others. Most people find her intimidating, but I don't. I recognize her strong nature, and I appreciate it. And if I know that she is queer, yes, the natural attributes of her character would make me swoon. roud:


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

saintless said:


> Nah. I was just imposing stereotypical views into my posts. Many think that nurturers are always very delicate people with big, bleeding hearts. Maybe I just have a funny view of the world, but I don't see the big difference between a nurturer and a protector besides the archetypal view that one is a saintly mother and the other is knight with a giant sword. Essentially, I think both embody view similar personalities such that both need the same kind of traits to succeed at what they're doing. I was trying to express that earlier. I am not always as effective at communicating my thoughts regardless of how articulate I may sound.


No, your communication came through loud and clear. I was only teasing  But perhaps I should work on my delivery? 
Lol.



> Excuse my diction, but fuck that. I am pretty certain I am "feeler" though sometimes I wonder if I am more INTP. (I haven't reviewed anything related to cognitive functions for a while.) However despite my occasional tendency to be indecisive and a nervous wreck, I would be damned with exuding the aura of dominance was beyond me. Us Fi-doms have a particular manner of being tenacious at times.


Perhaps it's more of an issue of the way that women are socialized, as opposed to the T/F divide? Yes that's probably what it is. I think all women are taught to be attracted to assertive people. Because of my gender queerness, I think I've taken on both male and female socializations. I'm attracted equally to both nurturing and assertive women; feminine and masculine; "tops" and "bottoms"; etc. Shit, I just love women in general.



> Though... I am neither femme nor butch. "Chapstick" perhaps. *shrugs* I like my middle of the road life, which is unfortunately why I advocate for the disbarment of gender roles at times because none of it fits me in any accord


Well you know I am with you on your mission to disarm gender roles. I've certainly preached its destruction numerous times all over the perc forums, lol.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> I do need to learn that it is not selfish for me to stand up for my own well being, as I do for others. This is probably an INFJ thing


 Ah, very good! I agree that it's not selfish to stand up for your own well being and wish you all the best in this. 


> Honestly, nothing is more beautiful to me than an assertive woman (especially femmes). We know that in this pervasive culture it is taught that femmes are not supposed to be assertive. They are supposed to be submissive and meek. But I say that this is sexist bullshit, and when I happen to come upon a "femme" who is not only comfortable, but proud of the fact that she is an assertive woman, I fall into deep admiration. Regardless of whether she is straight or queer. Again, it's the confidence.* It's the boldness she projects as she tells the world to eat shit if they don't like the fact that she refuses to submit to them*. She doesn't suffer the bullshit of others. Most people find her intimidating, but I don't. I recognize her strong nature, and I appreciate it. And if I know that she is queer, yes, the natural attributes of her character would make me swoon. roud:


To be honest, this whole paragraph made me swoon, especially the bold (which most I know would refer to as "bowing up" or "belligerent" before "bold"). Thanks for sharing those beautiful words, it really gives me hope and your responses have given me a new outlook as well.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

voicetrocity said:


> Thanks for sharing those beautiful words, it really gives me hope and your responses have given me a new outlook as well.


You are most welcome  Yes, I think we've all gained a new perspective from this thread.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> No, your communication came through loud and clear. I was only teasing  But perhaps I should work on my delivery?
> Lol.


No. I think I realized this while latter reflecting on my post. I was just laying there in bed, trying to fall asleep, thinking about everything I did that day, and then was like, "Shit. She's probably going to think I am really thick." 



> Perhaps it's more of an issue of the way that women are socialized, as opposed to the T/F divide? Yes that's probably what it is. I think all women are taught to be attracted to assertive people. Because of my gender queerness, I think I've taken on both male and female socializations. I'm attracted equally to both nurturing and assertive women; feminine and masculine; "tops" and "bottoms"; etc. Shit, I just love women in general.


And, I? Think I was just like, "Screw it, I am just going to be myself." I rejected both forms of socialization and turned as something in-between. Not to say socialization didn't affect because it did, but I just determined not to give in... all the way.



> Well you know I am with you on your mission to disarm gender roles. I've certainly preached its destruction numerous times all over the perc forums, lol.


Hah. Well, my sister. Prepared for the worse to come whether it be firestorms or acidic rain? Why those two things? I think I've been watching too much fantasy movies lately. I am prepared for sorcerers and dragons to bar our path from true enlightenment as we wield swords and crossbows.

No... I rather not come back down to reality. I like my warped vision of things.

But, what you said above about assertive femmes... sadly, I kind of have to agree with you there. I really do. Nothing against the other form of gender role reversal where the man is more nurturing than not... but those assertive femmes just have a way about them. :tongue:


EDIT: I wrote this at 5am before get in a long, long cartrip... That's why there are so many typos and some of the ideas seem whacked. Just saying.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

saintless said:


> Dude. I know a handful of assertive femmes, though I cannot say most of them are lesbians. However, if straight girls can fit that personality why can't gay ones? Again, I don't understand how so many people can continue to buy into gender roles. I mean you have to willing look the other direction. Blatantly as well. -______-


I consider myself pretty assertive. I was actually the one to make the move on my SO and pursue, and many people who know us find that hard to believe because I appear to be very mild-mannered and quiet. I'm emotional, but I'm extremely turbulent and I feel and believe things strongly, but I don't think that makes me weak. I prefer being in a relationship, but I thrive independently and I can take care of myself.



> Excuse my diction, but fuck that. I am pretty certain I am "feeler" though sometimes I wonder if I am more INTP. (I haven't reviewed anything related to cognitive functions for a while.) However despite my occasional tendency to be indecisive and a nervous wreck, I would be damned with exuding the aura of dominance was beyond me. Us Fi-doms have a particular manner of being tenacious at times.


I considered INTP for about two seconds myself, just because I like to break down things and look at it from all sorts of perspectives in order to better understand, but I'd be kidding myself. My emotions run my life. 



> Though... I am neither femme nor butch. "Chapstick" perhaps. *shrugs* I like my middle of the road life, which is unfortunately why I advocate for the disbarment of gender roles at times because none of it fits me in any accord. Gosh... now I sound so selfish. :blushed:


Not at all. Yay chapsticks! 



surgery said:


> How frequently do you masturbate, if ever?


LOL @ that question. I really don't think giving a number would be beneficial to anyone in this thread, so let's just say that I'm a healthy female with a strong sex drive.



> Do you have a strong opinion on lesbians who do?


Not really. It's perfectly healthy and natural.



> Do you watch pornography or read erotic material?


To be honest, I'm not a visual person. Yes to the second, though - I can read erotic stories and enjoy them, but I definitely need a storyline otherwise I get caught up in the fundamental improbability of two people randomly jumping on each other while at the office or on an airplane.



> Do you have a strong opinion on lesbians who do?


No, to each their own.



saintless said:


> And, I? Think I was just like, "Screw it, I am just going to be myself." I rejected both forms of socialization and turned as something in-between. Not to say socialization didn't affect because it did, but I just determined not to give in... all the way.


I think we'd all be lying if we said socialization doesn't affect us in some way. There's no reason to be ashamed of that.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

I now have a *giant* e-crush on all the women posting in this thread.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> I now have a *giant* e-crush on all the women posting in this thread.



You had me at that avatar!


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Doll said:


> You had me at that avatar!


What can I say? I shamelessly indulge myself, and you in the process.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

Doll said:


> I considered INTP for about two seconds myself, just because I like to break down things and look at it from all sorts of perspectives in order to better understand, but I'd be kidding myself. My emotions run my life.


Off Topic:
I find it interesting, but I feel as though a lot of INFPs sometimes wonder in they are INTPs ... I have too, because I can be very analytical at times (and because I could relate to some of the INTP type descriptions), but Fi is a rational function (and I'm pretty sure I am Fi-dominant). ... But I just think it is interesting ^__^


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

saintless said:


> No. I think I realized this while latter reflecting on my post. I was just laying there in bed, trying to fall asleep, thinking about everything I did that day, and then was like, "Shit. She's probably going to think I am really thick."


Lol, No I didn't think you were being thick.



> But, what you said above about assertive femmes... sadly, I kind of have to agree with you there. I really do. Nothing against the other form of gender role reversal where the man is more nurturing than not... but those assertive femmes just have a way about them. :tongue:


Oh yes, the world needs more assertive femmes  But the world needs more nurturing men as well. I'm not really attracted to males, but it does warm my heart when I discover men who are naturally gentle and nurturing, and who are comfortable being who they are. I'm very protective of assertive femmes and nurturing men, because when it all comes down to the bottom line, all I want is for every human individual to have the right to be who they are free from persecution.


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## Ms. Scarlett (Dec 7, 2012)

Hai! Sorry if I repeat anything—if so please ignore me.

This is coming from a 16 year old girl who is still trying to figure out her orientation; for a while I've identified as pansexual, however my preference for girls has sky rocketed and most days I identify more with the label "lesbian" than with anything else. But at the same time I'm not apposed to anything, so maybe queer is better? I dunno. Currently closeted as hell. (well, 3 friends know)

Anyway, on to the questions.

1) How do you feel about body hair? How do the lesbians you know feel about body hair? I used to shave my legs, but then gave up on it because I'm lazy and don't mind having leg hair. But is it considered repulsive? Because I'd be fine with shaving it if it's a big issue and is a huge turn off. I know there's no general preference among all lesbians, but what do you think I guess? How do you feel about pubic hair as well?

2) How the fuck do you deal with straight girl crushes? Because there's this girl at my school and I have the biggest crush on her but I have to assume she's straight and I need to get over her but it's been 4 years. How do you deal with it?

3) Is it unattractive for women to dress like 'men'? Because generally I'm a femme lesbian, but I also really like men's wear. Sometimes to formal events I wear dress pants, a button down shirt and a tie (and I can be mistaken for a boy which feels good; it feels nice to have the ability to switch from one gender to another). Sometimes I'll wear ties just casually. Is that a turn off?


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## Explosion Limit (Sep 14, 2012)

I am a little late to this party, but I just have to say that all you ladies are really awesome, both in the answering-of-questions as well as the general-discussion that has emerged :kitteh:


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Doll said:


> I think we'd all be lying if we said socialization doesn't affect us in some way. There's no reason to be ashamed of that.


Not ashamed. Just trying to be honest. Hell, I almost wanted to be a boy growing because it seemed like boys had all the fun. Girly stuff was so boring so there was no possible way I was meant to be a girl.... 
-_____- Not true. I am woman, and damn proud of my agender nature!


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Doll said:


> Yes, I dated a LOT of guys, omg... I'm almost ashamed to admit how many. I wasn't sexually attracted to any of them, although I did find one or two more bearable than the others. As in, I didn't feel disgust for them. But powerful sexual attraction? No, that was never there. Sometimes my body would react (very rarely, maybe twice ever), but my mind was always elsewhere... fantasizing about those wonderful things that happened in books and to other people, never me. I was never able to get myself to have sex with a man, which frustrated me for a while because I wanted to just "try it and get it over with"... but now I'm glad I never did, because I can call myself a gold star.





Doll said:


> To be honest, a little bit. I think penises are ugly and kind of funny looking, so I'd rather mine be pink or something.
> Yes, but not in the ways you might think. I told everyone I was "untouchable" and "an ice queen" and "too good" to engage in sexual things with boys. I held myself as the Ultimate Virgin Queen, above everyone else and impossible to obtain. I enjoyed the image, because it gave me a status that properly hid my genuine lack of interest. I also enjoyed seeming "innocent" to other people and having them have no idea how much turmoil going on underneath that facade.


Cool!
To give my experience for why I think so, I grew up not being a ladies' man at all, but had to hear them brag of their conquests, and also being afraid I would get left, basically with someone else's "used goods". Not only was I jealous of my luck in contrast to their experience, but I also came to feel for the female side of it, being such objects like that. So the idea of someone who never "succumbs" to a man took on an archetypal significance for me. Perhaps some sort of vicarious thing, since I've struggled with "power" issues in "the man's world". 
Even most lesbians (like the most popular ones, Rosie, Ellen, etc) had forced themselves to be with men before coming out. Even some who knew, still get curious and try them out. Like at least one here did so and regretted it.
So I'm glad for you that you avoided making the mistake. And you even seemed to recognize and capitalize on the whole "unconquerable"/"innocent" part of it.
In retrospect, do you still feel those ways? (unobtained, etc)


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Some questions because I have some _and totally not because I adore the living shit out of this thread_:

*1.* Do you immediately assume a woman is straight unless stated otherwise? (Apologies if this has been asked before!)

*2.* Is it more difficult for you to recognize serious flirting from someone because of the assumption that they're straight? 

*3.* What advice would you give to someone who's a bit hesitant and afraid of their new found sexual orientation? 

*4. *Do you ever wonder to what extent your attraction to women (or a certain type of women) is media-influenced?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Ms. Scarlett said:


> Hai! Sorry if I repeat anything—if so please ignore me.
> 
> This is coming from a 16 year old girl who is still trying to figure out her orientation; for a while I've identified as pansexual, however my preference for girls has sky rocketed and most days I identify more with the label "lesbian" than with anything else. But at the same time I'm not apposed to anything, so maybe queer is better? I dunno. Currently closeted as hell. (well, 3 friends know)


 I definitely know how it feels to be in your position. Don't feel like you have to rush and figure things out; it's okay to be unsure and to take your time to figure out what you want. Just as long as you're open-minded and the friends that know are supportive, that's all that really matters. The fact that you're so self-aware at 16 makes me feel a little jealous - it took me years to be where you are now. 



> 1) How do you feel about body hair? How do the lesbians you know feel about body hair? I used to shave my legs, but then gave up on it because I'm lazy and don't mind having leg hair. But is it considered repulsive? Because I'd be fine with shaving it if it's a big issue and is a huge turn off. I know there's no general preference among all lesbians, but what do you think I guess? How do you feel about pubic hair as well?


I don't like body hair, but that's just me. I don't think it's at all the general consensus of lesbians I know, and definitely not of lesbians in general... and I also don't mind body hair on OTHER women so much as I just don't like it on me. I want it ALL OFF OF ME. But if it's on another woman I wouldn't... really care that much. I mean, my instinct is that I don't prefer hair, but I don't think it would be a huge turn off or a dealbreaker, you know what I mean? I wouldn't worry about that. 



> 2) How the fuck do you deal with straight girl crushes? Because there's this girl at my school and I have the biggest crush on her but I have to assume she's straight and I need to get over her but it's been 4 years. How do you deal with it?


I've never had a straight girl crush... but the way I've gotten over people in the past was to try to shift my focus to someone obtainable. Have you tried that? I don't know if you're comfortable dating women right now, but actually focusing on the community itself and getting to know women who ARE interested in other women can open a lot of doors for you... and that will definitely lead you away from those tempting straight girls. 



> 3) Is it unattractive for women to dress like 'men'? Because generally I'm a femme lesbian, but I also really like men's wear. Sometimes to formal events I wear dress pants, a button down shirt and a tie (and I can be mistaken for a boy which feels good; it feels nice to have the ability to switch from one gender to another). Sometimes I'll wear ties just casually. Is that a turn off?


Uh no, definitely not. Ties are very attractive on women imo, I would go for it.



Explosion Limit said:


> I am a little late to this party, but I just have to say that all you ladies are really awesome, both in the answering-of-questions as well as the general-discussion that has emerged :kitteh:


Thank you!! <33



Eric B said:


> Cool!
> To give my experience for why I think so, I grew up not being a ladies' man at all, but had to hear them brag of their conquests, and also being afraid I would get left, basically with someone else's "used goods". Not only was I jealous of my luck in contrast to their experience, but I also came to feel for the female side of it, being such objects like that. So the idea of someone who never "succumbs" to a man took on an archetypal significance for me. Perhaps some sort of vicarious thing, since I've struggled with "power" issues in "the man's world".
> Even most lesbians (like the most popular ones, Rosie, Ellen, etc) had forced themselves to be with men before coming out. Even some who knew, still get curious and try them out. Like at least one here did so and regretted it.
> So I'm glad for you that you avoided making the mistake. And you even seemed to recognize and capitalize on the whole "unconquerable"/"innocent" part of it.
> In retrospect, do you still feel those ways? (unobtained, etc)


I am glad I never gave in because I felt pressured... because it would have been for the wrong reasons. I definitely don't look down on lesbians who have been with both men and women, because there's _nothing_ wrong with that - but I know that it wasn't right for me at that point in my life. I think that's why I built up an image of being eternally unconquerable and virgin-white and pure and so on and so forth. I don't feel that way necessarily anymore... because the main reason that image was there was to keep people away, and once I realized WHY I felt that way and truly became self-aware, then I didn't need that wall anymore.

But I'm not going to lie, I still joke about being innocent and sweet even though I'm not.  Everyone sees through it now... so it's more ironic, really.



kaleidoscope said:


> Some questions because I have some _and totally not because I adore the living shit out of this thread_:


<3 <3 <3



> *1.* Do you immediately assume a woman is straight unless stated otherwise? (Apologies if this has been asked before!)


Yes I do. Maybe it isn't right to judge someone right away and without knowing for sure, but I think it's a subconscious thing... here, it tends to be the rule.



> *2.* Is it more difficult for you to recognize serious flirting from someone because of the assumption that they're straight?


Possibly. I've never noticed being hit on by women that weren't obviously gay... so I'm not sure if this has ever really happened. If I'm not already interested, though, I tend not to notice things like that.



> *3.* What advice would you give to someone who's a bit hesitant and afraid of their new found sexual orientation?


I would advise them to take their time to figure it out - don't feel like you have to be settled in a new identity overnight. Sometimes it really is unsettling to realize new things, and the best thing to do is to take small steps toward understanding your feelings and emotions... and with understanding comes acceptance.  And also to know that sexuality is fluid and there's nothing wrong with feeling a certain way towards the same sex (or a different sex, if a lesbian is experiencing feelings for a man). You can't help who you love, but you can help what you do about it, and you should follow your heart. <3



> *4. *Do you ever wonder to what extent your attraction to women (or a certain type of women) is media-influenced?


Sometimes. I became more open-minded about sexuality when I began to read Anne Rice, lol. It made me think about things I hadn't before and generally feel more comfortable in my own skin. I also developed a little more confidence throughout that time. I don't know if that's media-influenced, though... at least not in the sense of making women be overly-sexualized or attractive. It helped me be more open-minded, but I'm glad... otherwise I never would have realized why I never felt comfortable with men.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Hello Doll, glad to know there is another Femme out here! :happy:I also have a question for you and my Femme sisters:

How do you address Femme invisibility? I find that if my wife is with me(she is OFOS Butch)only then do I get 'noticed' for being Femme, otherwise, my own people pass me by. Sometimes it's nice to pass (in unsafe places), but you would think that by now others know we exist, and would not automatically think that every non-butch woman in a lesbian or gay space is straight.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

killerB said:


> Hello Doll, glad to know there is another Femme out here! :happy:I also have a question for you and my Femme sisters:
> 
> How do you address Femme invisibility? I find that if my wife is with me(she is OFOS Butch)only then do I get 'noticed' for being Femme, otherwise, my own people pass me by. Sometimes it's nice to pass (in unsafe places), but you would think that by now others know we exist, and would not automatically think that every non-butch woman in a lesbian or gay space is straight.


Hi there! What is OFOS Butch, if you don't mind me asking? I find there's a constant learning process when it comes to the LGBT community.

As far as invisibility goes, it really depends on the situation. Sometimes I like it, because it makes others take me seriously and treat me with less disdain (like in the workplace or when I'm planning my wedding). Femme lesbians tend to not... be taken seriously... for a variety of reasons that I'm sure you're aware of. But sometimes I WANT people to know and I want to walk around carrying a big neon sign just for the shock value. I love disarming people who assume I'm straight (which always happens, it's just a given), so I try to have fun with it. Otherwise I'd just be irritated all the time.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Doll said:


> Hi there! What is OFOS Butch, if you don't mind me asking? I find there's a constant learning process when it comes to the LGBT community.
> 
> As far as invisibility goes, it really depends on the situation. Sometimes I like it, because it makes others take me seriously and treat me with less disdain (like in the workplace or when I'm planning my wedding). Femme lesbians tend to not... be taken seriously... for a variety of reasons that I'm sure you're aware of. But sometimes I WANT people to know and I want to walk around carrying a big neon sign just for the shock value. I love disarming people who assume I'm straight (which always happens, it's just a given), so I try to have fun with it. Otherwise I'd just be irritated all the time.


I know it, I can't always keep up with all the terms myself, and when you talk to older, or younger Butches and Femmes, you get entirely different terms and meanings. Old Fashioned, Old School Butch.(OFOS, sometimes also OSOF) She is soft butch, but has old world manners. Opens my door, carries all my packages, helps me with my coat, pays for things when we are out, (even as it comes from the same account, LOL) etc. 

Sometimes, I really like to be invisible because I get to hear how others really view lesbians in general. The bad part of it is, as you know, there is always someone(usually a male) out there saying "are you sure your are a lesbian, you could get a man" the point being, we don't want a man. Have you seen this? I absolutely love it!


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

@_killerB_

*How do you address Femme invisibility?*

This is probably going to sound bad, but I don't address femme invisibility at all _(unless you consider sticking up for myself and coming out as addressing)_. I don't need nor want to be visible all the time; however, if the situation calls for it I have no problem slapping someone in the face with reality. Then again, I haven't had too many times where I felt invisible. I've had women hit on me before I was out, and if I'm interested in someone or hear something that makes me want to speak up, I do, and then I'm pretty darn visible. 

@_kaleidoscope_

*1. Do you immediately assume a woman is straight unless stated otherwise? (Apologies if this has been asked before!)* Generally, yes. In the sense that I don't just outright hit on someone unless their sexuality or interest in me has been disclosed in some way. 

*2. Is it more difficult for you to recognize serious flirting from someone because of the assumption that they're straight? * Oh heck no. I don't care what you identify as; if you seriously flirt with me, and I'm interested, I'm flirting right back with you. Most of the time I don't even recognize that I'm flirting back until we're well into it. 

*3. What advice would you give to someone who's a bit hesitant and afraid of their new found sexual orientation?* Be true to who you are. I spent so much time in denial and fighting against when I could have been in love. The difference being open about who I am, the release, has been one of the most amazing and awe inspiring things I have ever experienced, and it was all done by myself and for myself. I wish I had given myself the credit to be able to make myself happy long, long ago. 

*4. Do you ever wonder to what extent your attraction to women (or a certain type of women) is media-influenced?* Can't say that I do.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

saintless said:


> Boss... you sound like you're attracted to the gender, not the sex. Specifically speaking? The "male" or "masculine" gender. Some people use the term androphile to refer to that kind of attraction, but it is a sticky term with a rather evolving history.
> 
> And, you know. Just saying~
> 
> Though if you don't mind me, what attracts you to certain men? What exactly do _you_ like about butch women?


Fuck, I had forgotten all about this. 

Physically, I am attracted to men who are archetypically masculine--broad shoulders, meso/ectomesomorphs, average to tall in terms of height, hopefully hairy lol, deep voiced, darker features etc. I like men with larger frames. I find Black, Middle-Eastern, Native, Latino etc. guys very attractive. As for personality, I seem to prefer androgynous personalities with strong feminine and masculine traits such as sensitivity, compassion, assertiveness, aggression when the situation calls for it, calmness, steadiness, creativity, expressiveness and so on. Exquisite strength and tenderness or sensitivity all in one person drive me wild. 

I am attracted to butches who are more masculine in appearance, taller, larger, more muscular than the average woman. Personality-wise, I sort of like that same mix of gentleness/sensitivity and strength that I do in men.


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## INF Jay (Oct 19, 2012)

I have an extremely wise lesbian in my life, who is a good friend. As background. she is from israel, holds multiple PhD's, is a medical doctor and chemist and has an extremely high IQ. Born deaf, had cochlear implants, she still knows sign language in multiple languages..can't make that stuff up.

She considers that in the lesbian community, there is 'acrimonious behavior amongst my own kind'. Bull-***** as she called herself don't hang with lipsticks, etc. They won't even support the same functions etc. 

Have you seen the same behavior? Why do you feel this is? She believes the root is fear of difference, which baffles me.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

INF Jay said:


> I have an extremely wise lesbian in my life, who is a good friend. As background. she is from israel, holds multiple PhD's, is a medical doctor and chemist and has an extremely high IQ. Born deaf, had cochlear implants, she still knows sign language in multiple languages..can't make that stuff up.
> 
> She considers that in the lesbian community, there is 'acrimonious behavior amongst my own kind'. Bull-***** as she called herself don't hang with lipsticks, etc. They won't even support the same functions etc.
> 
> Have you seen the same behavior? Why do you feel this is? She believes the root is fear of difference, which baffles me.


I'm answering this months later because I'm lame! D:

Unfortunately, the community here is so small that it's hard to differentiate as far as _causes_ go. However, I can tell you that a lot of "bull-*****" have a pervasive fear of femmes and lipsticks because of the possibility of bisexuality. Sometimes I think difference is at the root of this, rather than how they rationalize it, because "bull-*****" can also be bisexual (although I guess that is less common). 

Anyone who is on one extreme or the other tends to have more extreme ideas as far as behavior and sexuality. Honestly, I think sexual orientation biases are far more prevalent in the LGBT community. Bias thoughts and ideas toward bisexuals, transgenders, ect.


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