# Why would NTs enjoy math?



## athenian200 (Oct 13, 2008)

I've heard a lot of people say that NTs tend to find mathematics interesting. But I'm rather curious what the appeal is.

It honestly seems to me like something SJs would be better at. It's _incredibly_ tedious/dull and requires you to memorize lots of specific rules, procedures, equations, and solve problems while showing your work step-by-step. I don't see anything Intuitive about it. 

I'm NF, but I was able to figure it out and tolerate/push through it up to around the Algebra 2 level, at which point it started to go over my head... it just got too complicated too fast, and the teachers at that level became less than helpful, with attitudes like "I don't care if you turn your homework in or not, or if you fail" and trying to have us teach _each other_ in groups when none of us actually understand the material that well.

But seriously, why would NTs enjoy a field of study that basically involves doing manually what you can probably program a calculator or a computer to do faster and more accurately, anyway? I just don't get it. I understand that NTs are interested in "impersonal," but I wouldn't think that preference would go all the way to "repetitive, semi-useless, and boring" subjects.

I'm just curious how a strong Intuitive would find such a field of study interesting... and why it's associated with NTs. I don't see the connection.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Mathematics can be used to model theories, concepts and systems really well. It's a tool not an end in itself.


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## RandomNote (Apr 10, 2013)

I dont like math, its boring....but not hard just boring.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

I made this thread a long time ago, you might find it interesting:

http://personalitycafe.com/nts-temperament-forum-intellects/46977-nts-math.html



The short answer would be that NTs generally don't have a problem with math, but they have a problem with the way it is often taught in middle school/high school, which is more SJish in nature. Many say that they enjoy it more in college level math classes.


However, there's still a good bit of diversity of opinions about it, which makes sense. I'm sure there in all four temperaments there are plenty of people who love a particular area and people who hate it. 




However, math is a subject that is very difficult for many people in general (even SJs in an overall SJ school system) because it builds on itself more than most other subjects. In order to understand a more advanced concept, you first must understand a previous one. I think one problem of our school system (I'm speaking of the US school system here) is that it forces everyone to be the same....everyone is expected to take the same math at the same pace. So if one person doesn't have the previous knowledge that they need, instead of making sure they have an opportunity to learn it, they're forced to move on and try to figure out the next piece.



Of course, as you can see with type, the other issue is the extreme amount of diversity among students. It's very difficult for every student to have their needs catered to. So as a result, many (and in some ways, all) are left dissatisfied.


So simply put...I think a lot of this is more about the school system than the subject itself. And if someone still isn't interested in the subject itself, it's probably more about them as an individual than it is their type.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

teddy564339 said:


> I made this thread a long time ago, you might find it interesting:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/nts-temperament-forum-intellects/46977-nts-math.html
> 
> ...


Speaking for myself, I hated math all the way through high school. I couldn't do it, it bored me and so on. Then in my mid-twenties I started learning it in my own way, with a goal in mind and in a year or two I'd gone through algebra and was starting on calculus. I take a very pragmatic approach though, I learn what I need to know in order to do what I want. For instance, I don't see a point in geometry and trig for the most part since I'm mostly doing economic math.


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## braided pain (Jul 6, 2012)

Heh. Algebra 2 was right where I thought it started getting interesting. (Although being issued graphing calculators for the first time helped-- I don't know who had mine in the other class, but we'd make up equations to draw 3d graphs for each other.) Trig was okay, analytic geometry was fun, calculus really made me wish I could go further on, but I'd gone through all the math my degree called for and then some. Statistics sucked, though. First class to make me understand what people meant when they threatened to put a gun to their head from boredom.

I think the part I liked was being able to get a visual on what was going on, and how a tweak here and there could affect the whole. That's a concept that carries into real world modeling and predictions.


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## wolfdream88 (Nov 22, 2013)

I always thought that math was cool, although, due to a poor basis in algebra (I blame the computers), I ended up understanding math much better in its practical application within science courses (like Chemistry and Physics).


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## athenian200 (Oct 13, 2008)

Scelerat said:


> Mathematics can be used to model theories, concepts and systems really well. It's a tool not an end in itself.


Yeah, the only time Math makes sense to me is when I know the application of it... otherwise, it just feels overwhelming. If I can't visualize the scenario implied by the problem somehow, it's very hard to solve it. Word problems tend to be somewhat easier for that reason, than when they just toss a jumble of numbers/graphs at you and expect you remember the exact procedure to use in that situation without much context.



RandomNote said:


> I dont like math, its boring....but not hard just boring.


I'm not sure whether it really is hard, or whether I'm just so incredibly bored that my mind shuts down and I find myself going on autopilot and not thinking about what I'm writing, then getting stuff all wrong.



braided pain said:


> Heh. Algebra 2 was right where I thought it started getting interesting. (Although being issued graphing calculators for the first time helped-- I don't know who had mine in the other class, but we'd make up equations to draw 3d graphs for each other.) Trig was okay, analytic geometry was fun, calculus really made me wish I could go further on, but I'd gone through all the math my degree called for and then some. Statistics sucked, though. First class to make me understand what people meant when they threatened to put a gun to their head from boredom.
> 
> I think the part I liked was being able to get a visual on what was going on, and how a tweak here and there could affect the whole. That's a concept that carries into real world modeling and predictions.


That's interesting, how you got interested in it around the same time I lost interest. I guess you were happy you finally had to really think about it, and I was frustrated thinking, "now I have to think even harder about this boring stuff, and memorize more equations, while remembering all the OTHER ones, too?!"

Basically, what happened was that I figured out how to use the calculator by experimenting and reading the manual, and any problem that could be solved just by entering it a certain way, I eventually got right. Any problem that required me to know what I was doing manually and understand the concepts consciously, I only did better than chance. I didn't understand my teacher's explanations.

The only thing she taught me that I remember is a song. "X equals negative B plus or minus the square root of B squared minus 4 AC, all over 2 A," sung to the tune of "All around the mulberry bush." I don't even remember what it's used for, I think it's an equation of some kind, but she sang it so often (and so badly) that I have to listen to music to get it out of my head to this day, because it creeps in sometimes.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

That's not math. Not really. That's how to get the right answer. Math is how models operate on values. What you're taught in school is simply that models operate on values. I love math, but I hate math class.


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## braided pain (Jul 6, 2012)

delphi367 said:


> That's interesting, how you got interested in it around the same time I lost interest. I guess you were happy you finally had to really think about it,


I think that's it. It wasn't just a tedious repetition of something I already knew.



> The only thing she taught me that I remember is a song. "X equals negative B plus or minus the square root of B squared minus 4 AC, all over 2 A," sung to the tune of "All around the mulberry bush." I don't even remember what it's used for, I think it's an equation of some kind, but she sang it so often (and so badly) that I have to listen to music to get it out of my head to this day, because it creeps in sometimes.


The quadratic formula. I wish I'd had a song about it, it would have been better than the chanting we had to do.


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## Extant (Jan 15, 2014)

I feel silly because when I checked the INTP careers and found "Mathematician" and "especially physics" I balked. I make C's in both of my precalc and physics class. They are honors classes, at the very least. 

Honestly, I feel like I would be much better at it if I was interested in it; I do take four other liberal artsy's AP's, art history even, and I do fantastic, mainly because I feel motivated to learn more. 

Math is just so boring to me. I tested for 100% N, and it would make sense because I falter at all the technical info that comes with math. I dislike knowing that everything is so concrete; when I asked my stepfather why he liked math and he told me "because I like having answers to a problem" I really couldn't understand. I know it sounds silly to not like having answers. 

If math ever manages to be...less facts and details and churning out technical little numbers, I'd definitely invest more time.


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## SpectrumOfThought (Mar 29, 2013)

Did you just call math boring? You should be smitten for just that.


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## theInfinite (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm surprised at how few people know what math truly is. The stuff you learn in high school doesn't represent mathematics so don't discount math just because you've had a bad algebra 2 experience or something like that.

First of all, math is centrally focused with the concept of a proof. It's not supposed to be a list of rules you apply just to get some meaningless answer to some meaningless question. You can have a statement like "All differentiable functions are continuous" or "There are infinitely many primes" and your goal is to try to form a logical argument to try to prove it. Math is really about forming arguments. So in that sense, it's actually more like philosophy. I personally like math because forming these arguments is fun and can be a very creative process. Try to prove the statement "There are infinitely many primes" and you'll see what I mean.

A good book that introduces _real _math is _How to Prove it_ by Dan Velleman. I read this in high school and it changed my life.


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## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

Hated math until I took physics.

Dear god, I love physics. It's like a game, or a puzzle or somethin.

People fail to acknowledge its significance in things like music, or other art forms. It seriously makes up everything. It's _*THE*_ universal language.

EDIT: I planned on making that a lot more romantic sounding and pedantic...


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## SpectrumOfThought (Mar 29, 2013)

theInfinite said:


> I'm surprised at how few people know what math truly is. The stuff you learn in high school doesn't represent mathematics so don't discount math just because you've had a bad algebra 2 experience or something like that.
> 
> First of all, math is centrally focused with the concept of a proof. It's not supposed to be a list of rules you apply just to get some meaningless answer to some meaningless question. You can have a statement like "All differentiable functions are continuous" or "There are infinitely many primes" and your goal is to try to form a logical argument to try to prove it. Math is really about forming arguments. So in that sense, it's actually more like philosophy. I personally like math because forming these arguments is fun and can be a very creative process. Try to prove the statement "There are infinitely many primes" and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> A good book that introduces _real _math is _How to Prove it_ by Dan Velleman. I read this in high school and it changed my life.


What are the offs?! I am reading that book right now. I struggled with proofs in analysis and topology, so I resorted to this book and a couple of others. Anyone who is interesting in higher studies in math should read this book.

What is taught in high school is mostly the math of ancient Greeks which is very much based on Geometry. When one takes a Calculus class, there is a sudden shock. I like how Russell describes math: 

“Pure mathematics consists entirely of assertions to the effect that, if such and such a proposition is true of anything, then such and such another proposition is true of that thing...”


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

I think the problem with how the school system teaches math is that it focuses on the boring parts. Math is fun whrn used to model or prove, solving "If the boat is tied to the dock with a rope and it makes y triangle, if the tide goes out and the boat drops by x what is the area of the triangle?" is pointless.


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## unoriginal (Dec 22, 2013)

Math is boring and hard. You know what else is hard?


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## Extant (Jan 15, 2014)

theInfinite said:


> I'm surprised at how few people know what math truly is. The stuff you learn in high school doesn't represent mathematics so don't discount math just because you've had a bad algebra 2 experience or something like that.
> 
> First of all, math is centrally focused with the concept of a proof. It's not supposed to be a list of rules you apply just to get some meaningless answer to some meaningless question. You can have a statement like "All differentiable functions are continuous" or "There are infinitely many primes" and your goal is to try to form a logical argument to try to prove it. Math is really about forming arguments. So in that sense, it's actually more like philosophy. I personally like math because forming these arguments is fun and can be a very creative process. Try to prove the statement "There are infinitely many primes" and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> A good book that introduces _real _math is _How to Prove it_ by Dan Velleman. I read this in high school and it changed my life.


I'll look into that, then.

At least the general consensus is math at the pre-college level is pretty inadequate.


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## HighSteaks (Oct 16, 2013)

I love the idea of being able to fiddle with numbers to solve problems, and I actually do math leisurely sometimes for the pursuit of knowledge and figuring out things. It bothers me when I don't know how to do something math-wise, so I keep working on it until i can pull a number out. 

Unfortunately hardly any of what I have previously said applies when I am in a math class. I hate the forced repetition. A classroom is were math turns from an art to a chore. Math class is where dreams come to die.


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## starscream430 (Jan 14, 2014)

As opposed to the statement, I don't really like math. I prefer the other side of the academic subjects, such as history and writing


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## azdahak (Mar 2, 2013)

RCKT82 said:


> Structured, methodical (SJish) instruction is simply efficient given the ratio of professors to students. It's hard to tailor scientific subjects to individual students if it's not one on one.



Yes this is basically the argument we're making. The downside of this efficiency is that while you get everyone "through it" with a minimum amount of fuss (work?), you've built a weak support for the people who will actually go on and develop skills in the sciences.

Some think this is mitigated by honors classes, AP classes and what not...but AP tests actually just promote the problem, because of the focus on testing.

Yes, the Intuitives in the classroom will naturally go beyond the book themselves and build up their own pictures....but what an impoverished experience.


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## azdahak (Mar 2, 2013)

Scelerat said:


> It's a representation of the fundamental theorem of calculus that I got from this article on lifescience The 11 Most Beautiful Mathematical Equations | Beauty of Math | LiveScience because I can't for the life of me remember formulas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, it was just missing the integral sign... I can't remember formulae either....lol. That's how I justify my hatred of rote-learning.

Yeah, well, my "lecture" was naturally a bit thin...was just meant as a quick example of style. Basically the idea is that while you can measure "speed" by a change in distance over a change in time....you can get different answers depending on what points you pick (unless the speed is uniform). 

That formula gives an "average speed" between the two points. We want the "instantaneous speed"....I want to say the car is going 60 m.p.h. at this *instant* in time.....but how do you measure an instant? You can only measure a duration. 

That's the fundamental principle behind the limit definition. Since I can only measure a duration....I can get better and better estimates of the "instantaneous velocity" if I measure smaller and smaller intervals.....letting that interval get continuously smaller...gives me continuously better estimates. If I let the interval then shrink to zero, I get the "instantaneous speed".

The other approach is to try to estimate when "close enough" is "good enough". This is where computers come in and is the subject of numerical or applied mathematics. It helps to deal with issues like this:



> Hence the problem with a pure approach to anything that is non-abstract. If you abstract a real event, you're not going to be accurate most of the time.


How do I build a model that captures salient features? How to I insure the accuracy and precision of my model? How can I reduce a complex model, to a simpler form, that still captures the essential behavior?

In many ways, you can say that statistics is the study of estimating how close you are to the "real thing".


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## RCKT82 (Nov 25, 2013)

azdahak said:


> Yes this is basically the argument we're making. The downside of this efficiency is that while you get everyone "through it" with a minimum amount of fuss (work?), you've built a weak support for the people who will actually go on and develop skills in the sciences.
> 
> Some think this is mitigated by honors classes, AP classes and what not...but AP tests actually just promote the problem, because of the focus on testing.
> 
> Yes, the Intuitives in the classroom will naturally go beyond the book themselves and build up their own pictures....but what an impoverished experience.


Most of my development in the sciences was on my own time running through the exercises and cross referencing books based on the subject matter in the lecture. I hated being taught purely by example, I was more interested in the process of formulation. My best instructors mixed the theory with real life examples. That way you're not just hunting numbers or missing out on the array of applications for the given method. 

I'm just glad I'm not an instructor and was able to put in the time to appreciate the power that math has when applied correctly in a professional environment. Otherwise the pages of crunching numbers for some finite arbitrary number would have been pointless. It's one of those karate kid moments... Washing the car and painting the fence is mundane and boring unless you persevere to reap the benefits.


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## aphinion (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm not especially fond of math, but it is pretty great when I get a hard answer right. I prefer the sciences over anything.


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## judowrestler1 (Mar 30, 2013)

RCKT82 said:


> Hmm, I think a lot of answers are from those who haven't gone through enough applications of mathematics. The point of teaching math in a structured approach (SJ fashion as some have named it) is because math is a system of numbers and equations that define the basis of most sciences. Structured, methodical (SJish) instruction is simply efficient given the ratio of professors to students. It's hard to tailor scientific subjects to individual students if it's not one on one. It's up to the students to do more than just the minimum for a grade... Otherwise you just end up being a robot... Those of you who are from the abstract types, it should be rather easy to take the foundation taught in school and identify how it can be used beyond a "report card". You need to walk before you can run...


It depends upon your point of view of Math. I'd hazard a guess that most pure mathematicians don't care at all about the applications of their work outside of math(Otherwise they'd be in applied math ). So the fact that Mathematics is a basis for most sciences is really just an unexpected and useful consequence of pure Math. I personally think that the majority of Math past say Algebra 1, is completely inconsequential to most peoples lives. The way that Math is taught now deadens it. It's like if you were taught Chess by saying if you're in this exact position, use this algorithm. The issue becomes there are a near infinite amount of situations which pop up so it is impossible to prepare for them all. Yeah , using the algorithm may be the best option but the player who spends 1000 games playing around and making mistakes will be a much better player overall even if he doesn't know complex moves because he'd be better at analyzing the situation at hand and solving the problem rather than racking his brain to remember the correct procedure for the situation. That's why it's possible for human chess masters to beat computers, with computers being an extreme example of algorithmic problem solving. Now relating this back to Math, Math is taught in this algorithmic way most of the time. Unfortunately, there are an infinite amount of situations which can occur so you can't prepare for each one. I would argue that Math beyond Algebra 1 be an elective for those who think they want to go on to become Engineers and Mathemeticians etc. and taught in a more big picture and creative problem solving way. The majority of time of over students could be much better spent playing Analytical games(like Chess .) which require creative problem solving over rote memorization. Expecting kids to take the current system as is and have the desire to run with it is too optimistic. Hell I majored in Math in college and am currently in grad school for statistics and couldn't stand Math in high school because of the way it's taught.


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## theredpanda (Jan 18, 2014)

I hate math because it is so boring and routine. I can stand about 10 math problems, then I'm done. It takes me forever to finish math homework because I have to take so many breaks in between problems, however I do pick up math pretty quickly and don't really try, however I can often do well in the class.


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## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

"the shit that passes for 'math' in math classes" is not actually learning math, unfortunately. Nobody learns to understand patterns by memorizing stupid bullshit and doing hundreds of drills.


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## Bahburah (Jul 25, 2013)

Sure in high school it's for SJ's because your being forced to do it in a class room. 

In real life you don't have to show your work if you don't feel the need too.

And like others say math is great for understanding and creating systems. 


I like math but I don't sit around all day doing equations. 

The kind of math that I like is in music and RPG's. 

I've also noticed that my conscious isn't very good that math but my subconscious is genius. 

If only I could utilize it more, but I guess it's probably best it's stuck in my subconscious.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Math is the Ultimate problem.


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

It just fits with the "if A, is B, then B is C, then A is C" thing we use via thinking.

It's like.. a friend thing, you have a lot in common with it, so it'll be easier to make friends with him/her, but you don't HAVE to be friends with him/her/it/???.


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## Helweh18 (Jul 30, 2013)

I liked Math in school because I did well in Math and the answer was either right or wrong unlike other subjects like English *shutters*. I didn't particularly like having to show my work, I always thought that as long as the answer was right that's all that should matter. I remember having that inevitable thought "When the hell am I going to use this in real life situations?" Truth be told I don't use any of the math I learned in my later years of education in real world situations today. I must admit that Math was a great way to keep my GPA up throughout my education.


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## SeñorTaco (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm no math genius but I have an interest in math. I love math.

It's not just tedious math work and calculations (I take pride in not using the calculator because the beauty of it in actually enjoying every step you take to deduce the next step of work), it's also the wonders of the largely applicable formulas and how it affects the trajectory or the shape of your graph, that is your life or that cartesian plane you're working on. 

It's the beauty of geometry, how the area of a portion of an ellipse is equal to another area and it is reflective of the similar time period of the motion of the planetary systems. It's the odd patterns of Fibonacci's sequence that makes you realise how oddly harmonised and cohesive the environment is - mother nature runs on a clockwork magic that flows in our blood. It's also the symmetry of things, how the visually pleasant faces follow the symmetrical values ("Golden Ratio") and it falls in line with artwork as well. Learning statistics also played a huge role in consumerism and how it affects perception when used in an advert. What about the harmonising of musical notes? Pentatonic scales are mathematical. A huge part of music is mathematics.

The questions is: what is not enjoyable about math? It's a large system, that I personally likened to a government, that pulls a lot of things together. It also highlights the beauty or aesthetics in a manner that can be grasped.


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