# NT's as excellent debaters



## keepondreaming (Dec 10, 2012)

First thread! Did not find any similar threads after a bit of searching, so will start one now.

I have several NT friends who are excellent at arguing. I'd wager they've never lost a debate...

So, you mind-boggling lovely logical people, when was the last time you lost an argument where you were strongly opinionated about something? The closest my INTP friend gets is to a stalemate with another NT.

Most of the time when I'm against an NT, their logic just reduces my counterargument to a pile of dust. It's annoying but it's so cool at the same time.

Thank you!


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## Unforeseen Challenges (Nov 12, 2012)

I lose debates occasionally. It's not some much that I'm wrong, but I can't deliver the message very well. Also I often "lose" debates because "opponents" just simply refuse to take logic and shut me down, or walk away. In these debates I find it hard to even take up a position on a given topic, that's if it's not a select few topic I have expertise in, I often am convincing myself just as much as I'm trying to convince my "opponent", which doesn't bode very well. Sometimes even when I debate about a topic I have expertise in I just can't think of anything in that moment, feeling like I need to plan against counterarguments.


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## DiamondDays (Sep 4, 2012)

I lose arguments when my opponent proves me wrong. It happens from time to time. But losing in that manner isn't really losing because in the end you learned something.

I've won many an argument where i was on the wrong side simply because the other person didn't know how to argue their case. I might even know i'm wrong. I'll just do it for teh lulz basically.

I don't think i've ever lost an argument when i was arguing the correct point. Obviously most of the time there's no clear cut right and wrong but anyway.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

keepondreaming said:


> First thread! Did not find any similar threads after a bit of searching, so will start one now.
> 
> I have several NT friends who are excellent at arguing. I'd wager they've never lost a debate...
> 
> ...


I would be willing argue that your skills at intuitively reading other people is spot on.


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## Mr. Objectivity (Sep 18, 2012)

For me it depends on the topic, in order to win the debate it goes without saying that you must have background knowledge about the topic. Once an NT has done their homework it becomes almost impossible to beat them even if they are arguing for the side they personally disagree with. When I debate I initially research the hard facts and statistics and the evolution of the topic through history but always end on a personal note to win over any feeling types in the room (it seems to warm their hearts). This system has never failed!


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

DiamondDays said:


> I lose arguments when my opponent proves me wrong. It happens from time to time. But losing in that manner isn't really losing because in the end you learned something.
> 
> I've won many an argument where i was on the wrong side simply because the other person didn't know how to argue their case. I might even know i'm wrong. I'll just do it for teh lulz basically.
> 
> I don't think i've ever lost an argument when i was arguing the correct point. Obviously most of the time there's no clear cut right and wrong but anyway.


Grow up with an INTJ dad and tell me how many arguments you win.


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## DiamondDays (Sep 4, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Grow up with an INTJ dad and tell me how many arguments you win.


Uhhh... They are cryptonite!


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## SPtheGhost (Apr 26, 2010)

my own ignorance is the only thing that can, and will, defeat me in a debate 


...i'll annihilate him completely soon though


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

First master-debator joke.

If arguments are about winning and losing you probably lose more then you think you do.
Arguments are about exchanging information in way that forces you to think.
You "lose" an argument when you present information which is not correct.
Unless you know everything in the world you're bound to be wrong about plenty of stuff.
Every encounter makes you more suited to debate with someone new.


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## Havenisse (Dec 12, 2012)

I wouldn't say I'm an excellent debater but I do enjoy a good debate, one thing that can be annoying though is when somebody isn't responding to logic really makes for a weird debate if you ask me


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

I personally find that debates tend to end in a kind of stalemate, because people can rarely be persuaded of anything. I've had times where I thought I'd shown all the logical holes in someone's argument but they seemed to still cling to their beliefs. I'm not saying I'm completely rational and others aren't; everyone gets emotionally invested in their beliefs, myself included.


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## 37119 (Apr 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Grow up with an INTJ dad and tell me how many arguments you win.


The same could be said about an ESFJ mommy. They win in a very different way from INTJs though.


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## LeChanteuse (Dec 14, 2012)

From personal experience - as I've stated before in the forums, I did formally debate with an INTJ once, but I got creamed not necessarily because he disagreed with me (we actually did agree on the major points) but because I couldn't answer his questions quickly enough on the process of how I got to my conclusion. (I'm not the best at thinking on my feet - I need to plan out my arguments before I say them because if I don't do that, I know what my thoughts and feelings are, but they end up being expressed like verbal vomit. I can be good at internet debates though - if I feel like it.)

However, I do enjoy the process if the person is doing it sincerely and for the learning experience. (And sometimes I do it just for humor's sake, but then it gets quite obvious when that happens because my Ne starts working up like crazy!) If a person is just being obstinate for illogical reasons, though, I tend to give up and quit - what's the point of debating someone who isn't willing to listen to you and at least consider your opinion (even if s/he doesn't change your mind or vice-versa)?


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

It all depends on how you define "lose". I've "lost" quite a few debates because my opponent wouldn't accept facts and logic. I've also "won" those debates in that I presented the best arguments, the best rebuttals and unlike my opponent have used the experience to refine my "style" for future encounters. 

My approach tends to be: 
- Research all the arguments in favor of my position. 
- Spend time trying to reduce all those arguments to dust. 
- Research all arguments against my position. 
- Spend time trying to reduce those arguments to dust and come up with rebuttals. 
- Analyze my opponent to try and predict the arguments they will use to have rebuttals ready. 

A prime example of a great argument to bring up would be in the case of gun control "I don't want gun control because when the people rise up against the corporate overlords, I want them to be armed" (Christopher Hitchens inspired) any leftist is going to have a brain overload from that.


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## keepondreaming (Dec 10, 2012)

Well, I guess losing by your definition? I'm not quite sure. However, the way you logical people are so good at making people realize your point is fascinating.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

keepondreaming said:


> Well, I guess losing by your definition? I'm not quite sure. However, the way you logical people are so good at making people realize your point is fascinating.


From what I've noticed, the only time an NT loses a debate is versus another NT who is better prepared.

However, if the debate is judged by a crowd, logical fallacies and rhetorical tricks become much more effective as the odds are that in a crowd with equal gender distribution 43% of the males and 75% of the females are feelers (of course depending on where the debate is held). In my experience, many feelers have issues with accepting the frequently cold blooded reason presented by NT types.


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## LostTheMarbles (Mar 4, 2012)

I normally avoid debates, I just can't be bothered arguing with most people but when I need to I can bulldoze the average person with logic or just turn their head into mush with so many conflicting view points that they just give up trying to keep up.


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

I usually win. Even with an ESFJ mommy. I too use emotion when I need to, "well, what about the children???" with squinty eyes that mimic tears.


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## ninacheburashka (Oct 30, 2012)

I love debating, usually because I win. 
Probably because I actually use logic to back up my answers.


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## gammagon (Aug 8, 2012)

Thank you for not saying _master debaters_ :dry: That dead hose has been beaten to a pulp.

But I would say I'm good at debating when I have to, I'm a lot more logical and rational than a lot of my family. However if I've had the argument too many times or the other person keeps repeating themselves I just get tired and walk away.


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