# What Exactly is Hardwork?



## serenesam (Jul 26, 2011)

What exactly does it mean to work hard? What do you do in a situation where everyone works hard? By logic, it just seems like work is beyond just simply working hard when you factor in other variables like luck, personality, charm, talented innovation, and the competition variable. Analogously, it is the same with school, what if everyone does work hard and gets a letter grade of an A? I heard a rumor from one of my professors back in college that some professors will only give a set number of A's no matter how hard _everybody_ works. She on the other hand believes that everybody can get an A (she was one of the easier professors with happy faces at ratemyprofessors.com).


I just find it funny that some people accuse others of not working hard as if nobody wants to work hard but I actually think quite the opposite in that lots of people want to work hard. They are so invested in the hard-work variable as if it is the sole variable determining success and the reaping of rewards. Also, not to forget to mention mental disorders that may not be apparent to the naked eye (they themselves might not be able to recognize it as well as the fact that other people will keep telling them that they are normal) as it appears that certain people function just like everybody else.


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## Devin87 (May 15, 2011)

I think working hard means something different for everyone. For some people it's time and physical effort. For others it's mental effort. For me, I consider myself "working hard" when I'm putting forth a lot of creative effort. When I work hard I'm extremely productive, but it's easy and fun for me, so it doesn't feel like hard work. Slow, tedious work on difficult things to me doesn't feel like hard work-- it feels like time wasting even if it's necessary. I feel like I'm working hardest when I'm using my own talents to the best of my ability and working smarter.

I also don't think college professors should grade based on how hard people work. College isn't about rewarding hard work-- it's about learning the material. If you know your stuff cold and do outstanding work with very little effort, you deserve an A. If you put in hours of studying and writing and working but produce a mediocre product or can't remember your material, you deserve a lower grade. You're being graded on the material and on the quality of your work-- not on how much time and effort you put into it. If you have a mental disorder that makes you unable to perform at a college level, you shouldn't be in college.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Devin87 said:


> I think working hard means something different for everyone. For some people it's time and physical effort. For others it's mental effort. For me, I consider myself "working hard" when I'm putting forth a lot of creative effort. When I work hard I'm extremely productive, but it's easy and fun for me, so it doesn't feel like hard work. Slow, tedious work on difficult things to me doesn't feel like hard work-- it feels like time wasting even if it's necessary. I feel like I'm working hardest when I'm using my own talents to the best of my ability and working smarter.


It's always interesting for me to hear things like this from an N's perspective because I think it shows the diversity among people. 

I agree with you completely in terms of everyone feeling like hard work is different. But I have something else to add on that I think you're hinting towards...I think people value hard work when they feel a sense of accomplishment in what they're doing. And I think people often feel this sense of accomplishment when they feel like they're utilizing their strengths as much as they can.

What brought this to my attention is how my Si and your Ne view this very differently. For me...I tend to be able to work hardest at doing the things you have the most trouble with. For me, I enjoy structured and consistent tasks. I enjoy organization and stability. I feel like I'm accomplishing something when I have a lot of these kinds of tasks in front of me and I can knock them out. 

I enjoy creating, but I don't have much natural creativity, so I feel like I have to put in enormous amounts of effort that yield very minimal results. I feel like I'm putting in tons of time and effort and not really accomplishing anything. So even though it's harder work for me, it feels pointless.


So it's interesting to think about and see how people can be forced to work hard at something that they hate and not succeed because they don't feel that sense of accomplishment. I think this is a huge reason why people have such a problem with SJs. The type of Si related work that I referred to is so often thrust upon other types and they can't stand it...they feel immensely frustrated. 


I always hope that Ne users can understand why an SJ might feel the same way about more N-related hard work. Sometimes I get frustrated when Ns feel like SJs are mindless and don't make any efforts towards trying new ideas or being creative. I think what they sometimes don't understand is that doing this is probably very similar to what an N (especially an Ne user) feels when they're forced to to minute and repetitive tasks. I think they don't always see that an SJ isn't as likely to feel as much of a sense of purpose and accomplishment with this because it's just not something they can do naturally.....it feels like a lot of time and effort with minimal gain.


So I think your point is really good, and I think different people understanding it can help them understand how everyone can work hard in their own way, and that there's value in all of these different types of work. It's just a shame that it's so hard in society for everyone to not be able to utilize their talents in a way that's best suited for them.


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## OrdinarinessIsAFWTD (Jun 28, 2011)

Devin's right. Working hard is an outmoded concept; it's all about _working smart_.

I've always been of the persuasion that hard work, on its own, should not suffice for a top grade (insofar as the evil of grades is a necessary one). A's should be reserved for the elite few possessed of both the natural affinity for the subject matter and the willingness to put in the time and energy.

To this end, I've suggested to my educator friends that in addition to material covered in both the current textbook pages and lectures, there should be exam questions which test material that A) is covered later in the text/syllabus; B) is found in the text but not in the lecture; and C) found in neither the text nor the lectures. Overall, the feedback has been positive. The grade distribution tends toward more of a bell-shape, and the students are easier to unmask as phonies (aka 'grade-grubbers') or true learners (who are better-equipped in any case to anticipate curve-ball questions).


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## Dr.Horrible (Jul 12, 2012)

the opposite of working for the government (because they obviously don't have to worry about ever being fired for not working)


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Meritocrat said:


> Devin's right. Working hard is an outmoded concept; it's all about _working smart_.
> 
> I've always been of the persuasion that hard work, on its own, should not suffice for a top grade (insofar as the evil of grades is a necessary one). A's should be reserved for the elite few possessed of both the natural affinity for the subject matter and the willingness to put in the time and energy.
> 
> To this end, I've suggested to my educator friends that in addition to material covered in both the current textbook pages and lectures, there should be exam questions which test material that A) is covered later in the text/syllabus; B) is found in the text but not in the lecture; and C) found in neither the text nor the lectures. Overall, the feedback has been positive. The grade distribution tends toward more of a bell-shape, and the students are easier to unmask as phonies (aka 'grade-grubbers') or true learners (who are better-equipped in any case to anticipate curve-ball questions).



I think the problem is that college has become a necessity for so many jobs. A large number of people go to college so that they can get a job, not because they want to learn the material. To a degree this is even true with med school and law school (and grad school). 

It goes back to the idea of different people having different strengths and different goals in life. It would be great if those who didn't possess the natural aspirations that you're describing to not even have to worry about taking college classes so they could go straight on to getting a stable career. That way the college setting could be more about learning itself and grades wouldn't matter so much.


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## Devin87 (May 15, 2011)

teddy564339 said:


> So I think your point is really good, and I think different people understanding it can help them understand how everyone can work hard in their own way, and that there's value in all of these different types of work. It's just a shame that it's so hard in society for everyone to not be able to utilize their talents in a way that's best suited for them.


Exactly. I work two jobs with one of them (my favorite for some reason...) being in an incredibly hierarchical, SJ environment. It's certainly not monotonous or boring, but it's a lot of organizing people and following set plans. I've been told on more than one occasion that creativity is not welcome there. So I see the SJ point of view-- I just don't have it. It's very hard for me to fit in nicely in that environment. I get yelled at. A lot. I've been told before I'm not working hard because I'm not doing it THEIR way or they see my attempts to work smarter as cutting corners or being lazy (usually because the only times they realize I'm doing it is when I screw something up-- most of the time it works great and they don't notice I'm doing it differently-- it's just getting done). So yeah-- I know SJ views on working hard and I understand completely what you're saying about accepting other points of view on the topic. Although surprisingly, I've found the hardest person to convince isn't any one of my slew of SJ bosses, it's my ENTJ big boss who seems to like things done the SJ way for everyone but himself...


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## serenesam (Jul 26, 2011)

Devin87 said:


> I also don't think college professors should grade based on how hard people work. College isn't about rewarding hard work-- it's about learning the material. If you know your stuff cold and do outstanding work with very little effort, you deserve an A. If you put in hours of studying and writing and working but produce a mediocre product or can't remember your material, you deserve a lower grade.


So do you believe that everybody deserves an A if they really do know their stuff?

If so, how would the Dean react? Wouldn't the Dean complain that the professor is being too easy?

Look at it another way, Mr. Trump once said, "Only one could be my apprentice." Does this mean that everybody else who are also competing don't work hard?


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

I've learned the hard way that working hard (putting in effort into tasks, working quickly but accurately, not wasting time, etc) simply puts you in a worse position than slackers.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> I've learned the hard way that working hard (putting in effort into tasks, working quickly but accurately, not wasting time, etc) simply puts you in a worse position than slackers.


Really? I find that very surprising/fascinating, because for me it's been just about the exact opposite. But everyone has unique individual experiences in that regard.


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## silent warrior (Feb 20, 2012)

"What exactly does it mean to work hard?"

To me it means putting a lot of effort to something whether you become successful at it or not. It has different definitions. You can work hard to clean your backyard for example. You can work hard as a blue collar worker who relies on physical work and you can work hard as an office worker relying on mental work. Working hard doesn't always bring rewards because as you stated there are also factors like luck, innovation, personality etc. I also think working hard is not being appreciated by some employers anymore, they just want you to do the work correctly and fast and they expect you to know everything right out of college. They don't tolerate mistakes. That being said, there is an interesting phenomenon. There are actually studies done about this. When people see you work really hard at something they're more likely to pay you but if you know your stuff and do the same work in a shorter amount of time they're less willing to pay you the same amount. In other terms when they see you're sweating to get the work done they appreciate your work more. There is this joke: somebody takes his car to a mechanic and he says oh you know my car is not running very well, there's a noise from the engine, I'm not sure what it is? So the mechanic says open the hood, the person opens the hood, the mechanic looks at it, takes a hammer, bangs on a particular pipe, voom, the car is driving perfectly, the noise is gone and the mechanic says, that would be a $100. The person says a $100 for banging with a hammer on a pipe? And the mechanic says, no, no, no, the banging is $1 knowing where to bang is $99. 

When you think about it, would you pay more for someone who fixes your problem in a short amount of time or someone who works hard on the problem for hours/days but does a mediocre job? Although the second person tries hard I'd pick the first person but there is also the human irrationality I mentioned above.


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## McSwiggins (Apr 2, 2013)

in my mind, "Hard work" is dedicated effort, typically for a long duration of time, that leads to a productive/successful/beneficial outcome. Both elements are necessary: dedicated effort AND beneficial outcome. Flashes of insight can be beneficial, but they don't require dedicated effort. Insight is merely insight, not hard work. Thus, working "smarter" is not necesarily hard work, although its very beneficial. Likewise, sweat of the brow will generally garner *nothing* without a beneficial result. As they say: "do or do not; there is no 'try.'" In other words, no one cares how much effort you put in if you're not getting beneficial results. 

In an academic setting, the beneficial result is acquiring knowledge and demonstrating that acquired knowledge to the professor. Knowledge can be acquired through flashes of insight, or by countless hours in the library. In my mind, only the latter constitutes "hard work." I don't believe that grades are the end result of education. Instead, your grade is merely an indication of what your professor thinks you know. E.g., if I learn 10 things, but I only write 2 of them on my exam, the professor will believe that I don't know the other 8 and I will likely get a C rather than an A. There are many other reasons why grades turn out the way they do, but in the grand scheme of life they're not very important. Here's why I say that:

In my first career I was a structural engineer, and I designed more than $200 million of structures (bridges, buildings, etc.). In my current career, I am an attorney, and God only knows how much $$ of legal matters I have handled. But here's the kicker: _no client has EVER asked me what my grades were!!!_ They DO NOT care. They only thing that matters to them is whether I can design their strucure or handle their legal matter. That's it. Period. 

In the real world, the "beneficial result" is providing value to another person, whether its a boss, client, colleague, etc. The only thing that matters is what value you provide to others. You can create that value with a flash of insight, or by spending countless hours dedicated to creating it. Only the latter is "hard work." (btw, This is not a "win at all cost" mantra. Cost does not create value.)


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## Devin87 (May 15, 2011)

serenesam said:


> So do you believe that everybody deserves an A if they really do know their stuff?
> 
> If so, how would the Dean react? Wouldn't the Dean complain that the professor is being too easy?
> 
> Look at it another way, Mr. Trump once said, "Only one could be my apprentice." Does this mean that everybody else who are also competing don't work hard?


I do believe everyone deserves an A if everyone knows their stuff and is able to produce A-quality work. The question then becomes what is the standard for A-quality work. It should be a quality that not everyone is going to produce either because they're lazy or incapable. Set the standard high. What I'm saying is that college shouldn't be only about hard work-- it should be about results. If you can produce the results with little effort because you're just that good-- you deserve an A. If you put in hours of sweat, blood and tear but produce a mediocre product, you deserve a mediocre grade. Grading people based on how much effort they put into something at the college level is ridiculous.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Two parts:
-To direct your will towards a predetermined outcome regardless of unforeseen obstacles.
-To establish the predetermined outcomes based one's authenticity to the situation rather than through another's expectations.


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

Hard work is measured by how much effort you are willing to put in towards a goal.


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## judowrestler1 (Mar 30, 2013)

Devin87 said:


> I do believe everyone deserves an A if everyone knows their stuff and is able to produce A-quality work. The question then becomes what is the standard for A-quality work. It should be a quality that not everyone is going to produce either because they're lazy or incapable. Set the standard high. What I'm saying is that college shouldn't be only about hard work-- it should be about results. If you can produce the results with little effort because you're just that good-- you deserve an A. If you put in hours of sweat, blood and tear but produce a mediocre product, you deserve a mediocre grade. Grading people based on how much effort they put into something at the college level is ridiculous.


I don't think your going to get very far here. People who get things done quickly tend to have this attitude. Unfortunately, this tends to frustrate those which take longer to learn things who don't think the process is "fair".


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## sisnerozt (Mar 11, 2013)

there is nothing like a man that is dirty and sweaty and you see that he has been working his butt off all day for the sake of keeping his family going or even himself. Or even someone who has sat in a cubicle all day long using their brain to its full potential and come home and need to relax and unwind because of the mental exhaustion. Hardwork is hardwork. I know I paint all day and that may look or seem easy to some but I am literally exhausted at the end of the day from using my senses to come up with visually appealing work. Im proud of people who even are unemployed who are looking for work, that's work in a way. So props to all of us who are working hard. It benefits us all and keeps are brain pumping.


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## Devin87 (May 15, 2011)

judowrestler1 said:


> I don't think your going to get very far here. People who get things done quickly tend to have this attitude. Unfortunately, this tends to frustrate those which take longer to learn things who don't think the process is "fair".


Life isn't fair. *shrug*


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

teddy564339 said:


> Really? I find that very surprising/fascinating, because for me it's been just about the exact opposite. But everyone has unique individual experiences in that regard.


Well, in certain places I've worked, slackers get a lot of slack. Hard workers are expected to work hard.


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## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

hard work is when you don't want to work but you have to, this is what makes it hard

it takes a lot of willpower to continue to work when ur brain is telling you to quit, which is why hardworking people are sought out by companies


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## thor odinson (May 21, 2011)

teddy564339 said:


> It's just a shame that it's so hard in society for everyone to not be able to utilize their talents in a way that's best suited for them.


This right here.

This is what I believe contributes to laziness. Not completely, but largely.

Because if you lack aptitude in a certain area, then you can



teddy564339 said:


> feel like I have to put in enormous amounts of effort that yield very minimal results.


And it's like what someone else said, working on difficult things



Devin87 said:


> feels like time wasting even if it's necessary.


I think that's why in terms of careers, people say "do what you love" and I personally believe again largely not wholly, that "people aren't good at something because their interested in it" but that "they are interested in something because their naturally good at it. Because it's the way their mind rolls".


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## Obscure (May 20, 2013)

Completing all the tasks with a perfect comfortable time (doing everything needed) WHILE you FEEL cool or balanced. Otherwise, if you did them nervously or extremely fast, the required data fades away from your storage. You can even finish what you're doing fastre than you think -.-


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> I've learned the hard way that working hard (putting in effort into tasks, working quickly but accurately, not wasting time, etc) simply puts you in a worse position than slackers.


What happens is it gets taken for granted. Every job I've had the more I produced, the more they pushed me. One job I got fired from because they thought I wasn't doing a good enough job, they had to hire 2 people to replace me. My last job they initially hired 2 people to replace me and then a 3rd person shortly after that. It's the limited foresight that most businesses have. Keep grinding until there's nothing left to grind.

A ton of people tell me I'm one of the hardest workers they have seen. Training for football during the summer going into freshman year I used to wake 3:30AM and then do my stairstepper for 1.5 hours. Then I ate and rode my bike 4 miles to then trim Christmas trees for 8 hours, to ride my bike 4 miles home and then workout. Often I'd ride 12 miles after working into school and workout there. Then I'd ride 12 miles home to get to bed at 7:30PM so I could do it again the next day. 

I worked full time starting when I was still attending high school (when I turned 18). Prior to that I held several jobs and always worked close to the maximum amount child labor laws would allow. I completed college in 2.5 years while working full time. The job I had prior that I was fired from that I listed above, after I was fired, I took 29 credits in a semester in order to complete my degree sooner.

I mentioned above because my philosophy will make it sound like I'm lazy as hell. Personally I believe in results. I'm always trying to find more efficient ways to do things and be as lazy as possible when defined in the SJ world. I try to automate as many things as I can on the job and then "pace" myself by say browsing the internet or posting here (like I am now). I still crank out way more than most people but I know I could crank out a lot more. The problem is there's no incentive to. Corporate America's incentive is to load you with more work. If I was given a list of things that needed to be done and then I could leave after it was done, you would see efficiency at its finest.

I guess most of society would rather see a guy who needs to move a pallet across a warehouse to pick up each individual box and move it across the warehouse. It takes him 8 hours to do this but look at him occupying his time and he is working so hard! I'd be the guy taking the forklift and be done with it in 5 minutes. I'd sit there doing nothing but achieve the same results. Then I'd be the lazy one for just sitting around.

My mantra is "work smarter, not harder"


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