# Question on Love, Relationships and Porn.



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

bluekitdon said:


> Same saga that repeats itself in a lot of marriages. She might have even enjoyed sex at one point. Sometimes the flame just has to be lit again by starting to date each other all over again, other times there is something physical going on like a hormonal issue especially after pregnancy or during an illness. Being overworked or tired with kids also can have a huge effect.
> 
> It's not an inescapable thing though, with some work if she ever did enjoy sex she can find that again. Might point your brother-in-law to this site.
> Romance and sex
> ...


But when someone says: I don't like sex. I get the impression they never liked sex. It just seems like such an odd thing to say when the person saying it, has so obviously had sex with their partner before. It seems like just such a hurtful thing to say. If my partner said to me: 'I don't like sex.' I'd be so hurt. Because what have we been doing all this time if they don't like it? I'd take it as personal insult.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> I'm gonna assume this was directed at my question?
> 
> Hmm... *pauses to think* MA, how does it feel when you forgive these men for lying to you?
> 
> (Btw, thanks @_bluekitdon_ for the link. Bookmarked, an' I'll peruse it later.)


Sorry, still a little inept finding my way about and posting/responding correctly. =\

Its really hard to forgive someone who isn't sorry. Their reaction is always defensive that they were caught in a lie they feel was validated and that all men are this way and, in fact, so are most women and that my way of being and thinking is completely unreasonable and the only way they could avoid hurting me was to lie. So therefor by being myself and letting them know how I feel, it is my own fault. Because, clearly I am unhealthy. I even had one try and say it had something to do with my being neglected as a child and that it's unnatural and basically no one else functions that way. That I needed to force myself to enjoy getting off to attractive men pleasuring themselves artistically if typical porn went against what I find appealing and turned me off and I couldn't fantasize about other attractive men. Rather than validate who I am, my feelings...and apologize for lying and misleading me.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Ok. When you put it this way............ I'm 47. By your definition, the vast vast vast majority of women I have dated have lied to me. Likewise, the vast vast vast majority of men lie also.
> 
> So, PEOPLE LIE. Almost all people lie. it is incredibly hard to find someone who does not lie, especially if you are looking for people under the age of 50. I believe most people tend to get more honest as they get older. Why lie?
> 
> ...


I absolutely do not agree with this and its horribly inaccurate to assume how someone else functions. I do not lie. I have never in my life struggled to be honest to anyone but the dying. I am proud of this part of myself. I have to have faith there are others out there, capable of living this way without struggle. Others that not only find truth comes without struggle, but with absolute necessity. I can't be a liar anymore than I can be with a liar. I've tried, it doesn't work. I always end up telling the truth.

I defy you and your insistence that anyone should have to accept this.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

monemi said:


> But when someone says: I don't like sex. I get the impression they never liked sex. It just seems like such an odd thing to say when the person saying it, has so obviously had sex with their partner before. It seems like just such a hurtful thing to say. If my partner said to me: 'I don't like sex.' I'd be so hurt. Because what have we been doing all this time if they don't like it? I'd take it as personal insult.


I had this happen to me in my first marriage. But looking back it was somewhat obvious early on that she didn't really care for sex that much, it was never really there although she had enough other good qualities that I convinced myself it would get better. It didn't, it got worse. She told me at some point that she didn't enjoy it and it was painful for her at times. That was very difficult to hear. We did try to work through it but never quite could. While that wasn't what ultimately led to our divorce 15 years later, I realized later how much it really hurt our relationship. Without the physical relationship I pulled away, and with our kids monopolizing our time combined with her having a long term illness which made me feel like a caregiver and a single dad we completely drifted apart. When she suggested divorce I resisted but then realized pretty quickly how bad things had gotten and went along with it. So I'm not sure it's something that everyone just enjoys, but I think if you did enjoy it with your partner at some point you can get it back. I've since remarried and realized the sexual issues didn't really have anything to do with me, but I did blame myself for a long time. So I think there are some things that can't be fixed no matter how hard you try, but many times it's just a matter of trying to get back to where you started as a couple to find that fire again...assuming it was there in the first place. I've changed a bit since my first marriage, realizing I need to keep dating my wife, keep myself in shape, and not let everything revolve around the kids.


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## sink (May 21, 2014)

bluekitdon said:


> @Karin Porn and masturbation when you live with your partner...well I don't really have an issue with it now, but in a past relationship I had a very high sex drive and my partner did not. It's rather difficult to go around aroused and unsatisfied all the time...so rather than force the issue it's easier to just deal with it in private. Unless you're prepared to have sex multiple times a day with your partner, if they have a very high sex drive they might end up dealing with this type of an issue in this manner rather than "bothering" you. I didn't really deal with this angle personally, but I know some people may also like the fantasy better than reality.


I can understand the issue when one individual has a lesser sex drive.
But what if both have the same amount of it? Does it really just come down to preference of fantasy over reality?


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

Karin said:


> I can understand the issue when one individual has a lesser sex drive.
> But what if both have the same amount of it? Does it really just come down to preference of fantasy over reality?


For me it was just a way to release tension when my partner wasn't there or wasn't willing. I've heard of people liking the fantasy more though.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> Sorry, still a little inept finding my way about and posting/responding correctly. =\
> 
> Its really hard to forgive someone who isn't sorry. Their reaction is always defensive that they were caught in a lie they feel was validated and that all men are this way and, in fact, so are most women and that my way of being and thinking is completely unreasonable and the only way they could avoid hurting me was to lie. So therefor by being myself and letting them know how I feel, it is my own fault. Because, clearly I am unhealthy. I even had one try and say it had something to do with my being neglected as a child and that it's unnatural and basically no one else functions that way. That I needed to force myself to enjoy getting off to attractive men pleasuring themselves artistically if typical porn went against what I find appealing and turned me off and I couldn't fantasize about other attractive men. Rather than validate who I am, my feelings...and apologize for lying and misleading me.


Well, I can understand wantin' the apology and to have your feelings recognized an' appreciated. A fella can do that without having to agree, an' he can still be genuine 'bout it.

Gotta say, MA, I'm havin' trouble seein' your problem here. You're tellin' us you're perfectly satisfied with the values you have now, and we don't exactly have our values 'cause they make life _easier_ for us. Long as these disappointments ain't enough to change your mind 'bout anythin'... 

*scritches his head*

*genuine look* Where is the problem exactly?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

bluekitdon said:


> I had this happen to me in my first marriage. But looking back it was somewhat obvious early on that she didn't really care for sex that much, it was never really there although she had enough other good qualities that I convinced myself it would get better. It didn't, it got worse. She told me at some point that she didn't enjoy it and it was painful for her at times. That was very difficult to hear. We did try to work through it but never quite could. While that wasn't what ultimately led to our divorce 15 years later, I realized later how much it really hurt our relationship. Without the physical relationship I pulled away, and with our kids monopolizing our time combined with her having a long term illness which made me feel like a caregiver and a single dad we completely drifted apart. When she suggested divorce I resisted but then realized pretty quickly how bad things had gotten and went along with it. So I'm not sure it's something that everyone just enjoys, but I think if you did enjoy it with your partner at some point you can get it back. I've since remarried and realized the sexual issues didn't really have anything to do with me, but I did blame myself for a long time. So I think there are some things that can't be fixed no matter how hard you try, but many times it's just a matter of trying to get back to where you started as a couple to find that fire again...assuming it was there in the first place. I've changed a bit since my first marriage, realizing I need to keep dating my wife, keep myself in shape, and not let everything revolve around the kids.


Thanks for that. It's at least some perspective. What was she thinking having sex repeatedly early on in the relationship if she didn't like it? Did she ever explain that?


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

monemi said:


> Thanks for that. It's at least some perspective. What was she thinking having sex repeatedly early on in the relationship if she didn't like it? Did she ever explain that?


Woops.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

bluekitdon said:


> I had this happen to me in my first marriage. But looking back it was somewhat obvious early on that she didn't really care for sex that much, it was never really there although she had enough other good qualities that I convinced myself it would get better. It didn't, it got worse. She told me at some point that she didn't enjoy it and it was painful for her at times. That was very difficult to hear. We did try to work through it but never quite could. While that wasn't what ultimately led to our divorce 15 years later, I realized later how much it really hurt our relationship. Without the physical relationship I pulled away, and with our kids monopolizing our time combined with her having a long term illness which made me feel like a caregiver and a single dad we completely drifted apart. When she suggested divorce I resisted but then realized pretty quickly how bad things had gotten and went along with it. So I'm not sure it's something that everyone just enjoys, but I think if you did enjoy it with your partner at some point you can get it back. I've since remarried and realized the sexual issues didn't really have anything to do with me, but I did blame myself for a long time. So I think there are some things that can't be fixed no matter how hard you try, but many times it's just a matter of trying to get back to where you started as a couple to find that fire again...assuming it was there in the first place. I've changed a bit since my first marriage, realizing I need to keep dating my wife, keep myself in shape, and not let everything revolve around the kids.


Thank you very much for sharing this. Don't know if you're a hugger, but I've been practicin' giving them out. *hugs*


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

monemi said:


> Thanks for that. It's at least some perspective. What was she thinking having sex repeatedly early on in the relationship if she didn't like it? Did she ever explain that?


From what I gathered she knew I enjoyed it and was trying to please me. We never really had sex that frequently even on the honeymoon though, she always came up with some excuse. We were sort of like best friends and roommates after awhile.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

Mr.Venture said:


> Thank you very much for sharing this. Don't know if you're a hugger, but I've been practicin' giving them out. *hugs*


Lol, thanks. It was a long time ago so I'm good now and can talk about it. But not something I'd want to see any of my friends or kids go through.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

bluekitdon said:


> From what I gathered she knew I enjoyed it and was trying to please me. We never really had sex that frequently even on the honeymoon though, she always came up with some excuse. We were sort of like best friends and roommates after awhile.


Sex has always been such an important part of relationships for me. Even when my sex drive took a hit to from about an 8/10 to a 1/10, I still missed the intimacy of it. I'm just too selfish to focus so much on my kids that I miss out on sex. I love my kids and make sure they're well cared for, but I can't help it that I'm selfish.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

bluekitdon said:


> Lol, thanks. It was a long time ago so I'm good now and can talk about it. But not something I'd want to see any of my friends or kids go through.


Understandable. I think we can all say that's a lesson we hope our loved ones never have to learn the hard way.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

monemi said:


> Sex has always been such an important part of relationships for me. Even when my sex drive took a hit to from about an 8/10 to a 1/10, I still missed the intimacy of it. I'm just too selfish to focus so much on my kids that I miss out on sex. I love my kids and make sure they're well cared for, but I can't help it that I'm selfish.


Honestly, M, that's a good kind of "selfish". It's a kind of self-interest that recognizes your needs are as important as anyone's. Put yer own oxygen mask on before assisting another person, right? Give your heart, body, and mind the nourishment they need, an' all your loved ones will thank you for it. *cheesy thumbs up smile*


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

*notices the thanks*

*raises arms and utters in sudden total innocent joy "I can feel the love!"*

*looks sheepish about his outburst*


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> *notices the thanks*
> 
> *raises arms and utters in sudden total innocent joy "I can feel the love!"*
> 
> *looks sheepish about his outburst*


No disagreement there. I hate it when other posters use flowery language that essentially means they're calling me a cunt. Thanks are way better!


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> I absolutely do not agree with this and its horribly inaccurate to assume how someone else functions. I do not lie. I have never in my life struggled to be honest to anyone but the dying. I am proud of this part of myself. I have to have faith there are others out there, capable of living this way without struggle. Others that not only find truth comes without struggle, but with absolute necessity. I can't be a liar anymore than I can be with a liar. I've tried, it doesn't work. I always end up telling the truth.
> 
> I defy you and your insistence that anyone should have to accept this.


I believe we are misunderstanding each other in this exchange, and I own at least most of the fault. 

I absolutely admire someone who strives to tell the truth. It is fucking hard for most people to be honest. Those who are honest, and tell Truth are pretty rare.

I do not doubt you are honest. I do not doubt you don't lie. But you are rare.

And I am suggesting BECAUSE you value Truth so highly, you should FOCUS on finding someone who can welcome and appreciate the honesty, and reciprocate the honesty. 

For me I used to think finding someone who could take my bluntness was one of many qualities. Eventually I figured out it is one of only three qualities which I must have in a mate: Honesty, Intelligence, Kindness (compassion). 

Kindly offered,
d


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

monemi said:


> No disagreement there. I hate it when other posters use flowery language that essentially means they're calling me a cunt. Thanks are way better!


monemi is one who tolerates, appreciates, and welcomes Truth. there are several on this site.


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## Night & Day (Jul 17, 2010)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> ..


I've been there, I had similar issues with my boyfriend. I'm like you, I don't feel any sexual attraction toward any guy that isn't my boyfriend, and I absolutely expect the same in return. I want at least the same that I have to offer in return, if I receive less than ideal treatment then I'm obviously in the wrong relationship. No one can tell me or you that this is out of whack. Everyone has their own preferences.

When I started working, I met this guy. We became friends, and I was only interested in him as a friend & he was as well, or so he'd said. Eventually, he began trying to girlfriend-zone me, and it was hard for me because I like to treat people good. In this situation, I desperately needed the support of my boyfriend, I needed him to be there with me and tell this guy off. My BF instead felt jealous, and he decided to watch porn to get revenge on me, but he didn't tell me about this until later. When I finally got this guy from work off my back, my BF came clean and told me what he did. I, of course was heartbroken, because he had pulled an Obama once again (my BF inspired me to come up with this expression). Pulling an Obama is when people try to sell you the dream, they tell you they will do this and never do that but they don't keep their word. So at first I felt like maybe I deserved this, because I wasn't able to defend myself from the guy at work. I don't know how to be mean...this is why I don't let people in easily. Once they're my friend, they can take advantage of that relationship. Just as this guy sensed in me and did so. Later, I became very angry, because I felt like this coworker was the one who caused all of the problems in my relationship. Because of him, my BF broke his word and watched porn, and even worse...he did it to get revenge on me. To feel so much hate enough to want revenge...I couldn't wrap my mind around that. In time I just broke up with my BF, no matter how hard I tried to forget about what he did, I couldn't. We're FWB now, I'm currently trying to slowly forget about him, because I'm not strong enough to completely shut him out of my life. But I'm also keeping myself open to him, if I see that he's truly sincere & want something serious, no lies...then I'll give him another chance.

So yeah, you aren't alone in this. I find that when guys try to brainwash you into thinking that it's normal to watch porn & that you should accept it, they're the ones who are in fact controlling and insecure. Don't accept this behavior from anyone. You know what you're worth, and you know what you deserve. The right guy is out there, don't lose hope. :kitteh:


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

Fine Shrine said:


> I've been there, I had similar issues with my boyfriend. I'm like you, I don't feel any sexual attraction toward any guy that isn't my boyfriend, and I absolutely expect the same in return. I want at least the same that I have to offer in return, if I receive less than ideal treatment then I'm obviously in the wrong relationship. No one can tell me or you that this is out of whack. Everyone has their own preferences.
> 
> When I started working, I met this guy. We became friends, and I was only interested in him as a friend & he was as well, or so he'd said. Eventually, he began trying to girlfriend-zone me, and it was hard for me because I like to treat people good. In this situation, I desperately needed the support of my boyfriend, I needed him to be there with me and tell this guy off. My BF instead felt jealous, and he decided to watch porn to get revenge on me, but he didn't tell me about this until later. When I finally got this guy from work off my back, my BF came clean and told me what he did. I, of course was heartbroken, because he had pulled an Obama once again (my BF inspired me to come up with this expression). Pulling an Obama is when people try to sell you the dream, they tell you they will do this and never do that but they don't keep their word. So at first I felt like maybe I deserved this, because I wasn't able to defend myself from the guy at work. I don't know how to be mean...this is why I don't let people in easily. Once they're my friend, they can take advantage of that relationship. Just as this guy sensed in me and did so. Later, I became very angry, because I felt like this coworker was the one who caused all of the problems in my relationship. Because of him, my BF broke his word and watched porn, and even worse...he did it to get revenge on me. To feel so much hate enough to want revenge...I couldn't wrap my mind around that. In time I just broke up with my BF, no matter how hard I tried to forget about what he did, I couldn't. We're FWB now, I'm currently trying to slowly forget about him, because I'm not strong enough to completely shut him out of my life. But I'm also keeping myself open to him, if I see that he's truly sincere & want something serious, no lies...then I'll give him another chance.
> 
> So yeah, you aren't alone in this. I find that when guys try to brainwash you into thinking that it's normal to watch porn & that you should accept it, they're the ones who are in fact controlling and insecure. Don't accept this behavior from anyone. You know what you're worth, and you know what you deserve. The right guy is out there, don't lose hope. :kitteh:



Thank you for this response and I am so sorry about your situation. That is a string of very unfortunate events and so frustrating to hear that you felt the need to blame yourself. Your Obama comment made me laugh, I definitely get that. I was in a relationship with someone in a similar fashion in the past and I think that boils down to a really unhealthy jealousy issue on his part that needs to be worked out, because it's pretty deep seeded. It would be one thing if you kissed this guy, or considered leaving your boyfriend for him (not that that would make it ok, but just more "rational"). To punish you for someone elses feelings towards you by choosing to "get revenge" (which, unless you spent time fantasizing about your guy friend, technically wasn't revenge...it was just him allowing his jealousy to push him to make a horrible and massively hurtful decision). The guy I was with actually went out and cheated on me after a year of issues much like this... because he was so jealous and controlling he convinced himself I was cheating when in fact I was always alone and had lost all of my friends months prior thanks to his crazy behavior and my inability to let go of the unhealthy relationship. I advise caution when interacting with anyone that has jealousy issues that intense that they will literally try to hurt you, because of delusions in their own head. Dangerous stuff!

And thank you for the encouragement! It's always fantastically reassuring to be told one is not alone. Sometimes I feel extraordinarily alien!


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> I see this mentality in marriages a lot. Women hurt, but forced to swallow something they don't want to while their husband grins in the background like a hollow soul.



Is this a reference to blow jobs??


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> I need truth, honesty from a partner, but they always end up lying to me about their porn habits and preferences and how they feel about such matters, like seeing attractive girls. I am very intuitive, nothing gets by me (even when i really wish it would)...so this leads to some forms of unhealthy jealousy and mistrust, because I feel I've been lied to right from the start about who the person is and how they function. That turns into them telling me I'm crazy to expect such things and watching porn is natural and checking out every other pretty girl that walks by is natural. Which leads me to saying, no....love, oxytocin bonding and flesh sex is natural...when we still lived natural lives if you wanted to watch someone screwing you had to be a creeper or join a 3+some. There's nothing natural about modern porn, or internet. Get real.
> 
> Nor is it healthy, in my opinion, to lie about who you are to manipulate a person into a situation they don't/can't be healthy in because you feel their way of being is "wrong" and yours is "right". Yet, that is what they do, on repeat....lie. Then tell me I am unhealthy. Wtf?



I stumbled on the following TEDx speech yesterday. 






She makes really good points regarding shame. I am guilty of sexual shame as I am sure nearly everyone is. Why do people lie? One reason is because they feel shame in their desires. The speaker provides a good reference to how society effects individual shame. If society says its bad > you are bad > you feel bad for being a bad person. 

My take on your comments above is that your partner lied to you because you (or someone else) implied or said "Doing _____ is bad and I/we do not approve of it." In doing so, you have shamed that person for doing something that they believe to be normal. The common reaction to doing something that would make others unhappy is to hide it. 

I would suggest to you and anyone else dealing with a similar issue to accept people for who they are. I don't suggest this to mean that if you are dating a liar, to let them continue lying to you. (Liars suck, flat out, there is nothing worst than a liar. Punch them in the face!) I suggest that if you give someone no reason to lie to you, by accepting their views, opinions, and fucked up desires; they will cease to lie to you because you aren't constantly judging or shaming them for something they view as normal. (In most cases, this will take a lot of time to build trust)

You will find that if agree to accept these perverted thoughts your partner has, your partner's love and respect for you will increase as well. Instead of gaining a life partner, you will gain an extension of yourself. If you have never felt that experience, there is nothing on earth that compares. 

If you want no more lies, explain yourself better and don't judge when so-and-so does something you don't approve of. Just accept it. If you don't understand it, ask your partner to include you next time and explain it to you. (may seem weird, but ultimately it exposes insecurities and builds on trust.) In doing so, you will discover some things about yourself and your partner. You may even find that you like whatever it is you are shaming your partner for. If not the activity your partner is into, then the joy or happiness your partner experiences when doing said activity. At the very least, you should find that the activity isn't nearly as bad, disgusting, or sinful as your naivety once suggested. 


I think you already understand all this. I am just trying to shed a different point of view to see if it helps. 




Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> So I'm curious if anyone else feels this way?
> 
> If anyone else literally can not be sexually attracted to anyone but the one they are with? Am I just this strange mutation of humanity?
> 
> ...


Yes honesty and trust are the single most important factors to a relationship in my opinion, unfortunately it is difficult to come by. I am as honest as possible with my wife. I used to lie to her about the stuff I thought would upset her or get me into trouble. After a few years, I realized she would always find out eventually anyhow, so what's the point of lying about? Now I include or tell her about nearly everything I do. She doesn't get angry because she knows it is in my nature to go do this shit anyway or become extremely unhappy. In return she doesn't get the unhappiness of constantly having Ni spikes allowing her to focus on other things and she gets copious amounts of love from me. 

It is impossible for me to be attracted to anyone but the one I am with. I always thought everyone was like this but I have learned otherwise. To me, you are a strange mutant, yet I am cool with that.

Personality, gender, and programing has nothing to do with it. Humanity has everything to do with it. 

"I'll never be enough for anyone as I am and that no one will ever be enough for me as I am..." There is no truer statement. Healthy long term relationships require understanding, compromise, and sharing. If you or your partner are to stubborn, prideful, selfish, close-minded, etc., to work with each other on an honest, loving, and trusting relationship; nothing will ever come of it.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

That's a really interestin' point about shame you bring up @HOLYSHIZZY. Not sure I agree with every part of the practical advice you gave @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist, but it's makin' me think about my own shame behaviors an' how I perpetuate the problem. Thanks.


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> That's a really interestin' point about shame you bring up @HOLYSHIZZY. Not sure I agree with every part of the practical advice you gave @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist, but it's makin' me think about my own shame behaviors an' how I perpetuate the problem. Thanks.


What don't you agree with and how is that you perpetuate the problem?


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> What don't you agree with and how is that you perpetuate the problem?


Well, I found myself agreeing with @drmiller100 in that I'm pretty sure I couldn't meet @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist's standards of honesty. It ain't 'cause I lie - I drink truth like fish drink water - but because I'm neither perfectly consistent nor perfectly aware. One of my favorite things to say in my work is "you can't make a choice you don't see," and the best I seem to be able to do is be honest 'bout where I'm at in the moment. It's sorta like the weather - I can give you constant updates, and the sun always rises in the east, but don't put too much stock in my seven-day forecasts.

I can't help but intuit that MAA would eventually see that as lyin'.

The shame part gets even trickier. If I refuse to shame you, myself, or anyone on this thread for their sexuality an' relationship needs, then it would be equally wrong to shame MAA's for hers. Despite a gut reaction that says "she's judging!", my compassion also recognizes we can't develop effective boundaries without _discernment_ in what works for us and what doesn't. If Molly wants to protect her livestock with a shotgun, then it must be danged important to her. She's clearly strugglin' with feeling like a freak herself, so I want to validate that, but if she starts shootin' people who ain't trespassin' on her property, that's a problem too.

MAA, that's why I invited you to consider where the problem actually was. I would hope you feel accepted _in toto_, gifts and challenges alike. You can be unique _and_ accepted. Maybe if you embrace your own uniqueness with more compassion, you won't have to feel the same kind of disappointment when others are different.

In that regard, I really hope you take my story to heart. Even though I swim in honesty, I think I'd still upset you without wantin' to, and I'd hurt myself if I tried any different. It don't mean you're wrong or I'm wrong, it's just one of them challenges we get to deal with in this life - another reason to build our resiliency.

HS, what I don't agree with necessarily is inviting her to sit down and experience it for herself with her partner. Yes, that could be a positive experience, but we also have different needs when it comes to safety and such. Some part of me wonders if she already tried this and it didn't work out. A smaller, more-likely-to-be-successful step as I see it would be to sit with herself for a bit an' see if she can embrace all the qualities about herself in this situation with compassion. (No offense intended MAA, I just find this a regular - but beneficial - challenge myself.)


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> Well, I found myself agreeing with @drmiller100 in that I'm pretty sure I couldn't meet @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist's standards of honesty. It ain't 'cause I lie - I drink truth like fish drink water - but because I'm neither perfectly consistent nor perfectly aware. One of my favorite things to say in my work is "you can't make a choice you don't see," and the best I seem to be able to do is be honest 'bout where I'm at in the moment. It's sorta like the weather - I can give you constant updates, and the sun always rises in the east, but don't put too much stock in my seven-day forecasts.
> 
> I can't help but intuit that MAA would eventually see that as lyin'.


I agree completely with you on this. I was basically suggesting to MMA that she not give someone a reason to lie to them and they won't. In the same breathe, in order to attain this level of honesty, you have to accept AND understand the other person's actions are part of who they are; whether you agree with them or not. Without the acceptance, you will never achieve the honesty.





Mr.Venture said:


> HS, what I don't agree with necessarily is inviting her to sit down and experience it for herself with her partner. Yes, that could be a positive experience, but we also have different needs when it comes to safety and such. Some part of me wonders if she already tried this and it didn't work out. A smaller, more-likely-to-be-successful step as I see it would be to sit with herself for a bit an' see if she can embrace all the qualities about herself in this situation with compassion. (No offense intended MAA, I just find this a regular - but beneficial - challenge myself.)


Tomato-tomato. (lol hard to write that without special keys) 

I believe we are suggesting the same thing just in different ways of attainment. Your approach just involves more victim blaming. 

You are insinuating (with no offense) that MAA is the problem because she has ideals that are unrealistic for you/society and she should consider changing.

I am suggesting that the problem is a lack of openness, understanding, and communication between her and her partner(s). My suggestion is to share why we feel the way we do with the person we love, in order to accept and cherish that person for their idiosyncrasies. Trust is built from sharing these secrets, thoughts, and activities together.


----------



## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> I believe we are suggesting the same thing just in different ways of attainment. Your approach just involves more victim blaming.
> 
> You are insinuating (with no offense) that MAA is the problem because she has ideals that are unrealistic for you/society and she should consider changing.


Um, I'm gonna leave it up to @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist to decide what's victim-blaming and who's doin' it. I think that was a deep mis-characterization of what I was sayin'. I was tryin' to offer a way of coming to terms with her own values so she can make her own choices with less distress. It don't have to work for me, only her in this case.


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> Um, I'm gonna leave it up to @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist to decide what's victim-blaming and who's doin' it. I think that was a deep mis-characterization of what I was sayin'.


Oh alright, my bad then.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

95 percent of men masturbate. The other 5 percent are liars.

Normal is masturbating and not admitting it.

i was married to a woman who shamed me for doing it, and shamed me for admitting it and was ashamed herself because I did it. None of which was any of my problem.

But if the OP wants someone who does masturbate, and does not lie, then she has the right to demand that.

personally I want a bisexual woman who LOVES to deep throat me twice a day and is open to the idea of 3 - somes, but I'm willing to compromise.

Health and Sexual Benefits of Masturbation | Men's Health


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Normal is masturbating and not admitting it.
> 
> i was married to a woman who shamed me for doing it, and shamed me for admitting it and was ashamed herself because I did it. None of which was any of my problem.
> 
> ...


You and I have different opinions on what normal is. 

What happened to the woman you were married to?

Why settle for less?


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> So I'm curious if anyone else feels this way? If anyone else literally can not be sexually attracted to anyone but the one they are with? Am I just this strange mutation of humanity? Is it a personality type thing, is it a gender thing, are men really just programmed to be this way? If so, I'm going to die alone or of a broken heart from being lied to so much. I still feel sick over the truths that were just finally revealed to me. It makes me feel like the love I thought I received never happened at all and that I'll never be enough for anyone as I am and that no one will ever be enough for me as I am...if I really am that strange and unusual in my way of being/thinking.
> 
> Please, share your thoughts.


I'm there, I feel that way, totally relate to your words. BUT over the years I wonder how good is that, it doesn't seen (suddenly to me) that good to close my eyes that much to the rest of the world because it limits my view. I believe it's a mental and emotional thing. Porn is a diff thing, it's around something we like naturally, the thing is it changes over the years and depending the person, per example porn was fun to me years ago despite not being able of watching a movie completely. Then over the years my taste changed and also remember the fact that on a relationship it gets really boring.

I'll say it differently: porn is not really that fun since I got into real normal life and sex relationships. It doesn't work that way for everyone, still the emotional part of me really gets connected and over the years I'm not sure if that's a 100% good thing.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> You and I have different opinions on what normal is.
> 
> What happened to the woman you were married to?
> 
> Why settle for less?


Do you masturbate regularly?

I divorced her. 

I don't settle anymore.


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Do you masturbate regularly?
> 
> I divorced her.
> 
> I don't settle anymore.


Yup.

That's a shame...

You said you were willing to compromise, then you said you don't settle anymore. 8-/


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> Is this a reference to blow jobs??


lol No, but I can see how my choice of language might make it look that way.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Karin said:


> What I don't understand is, is there really a need for porn and masturbation when you live with your partner? That's always seemed so redundant to me. Does anyone have any insight on this?


I have counseled young men on porn, masturbation, and marriage. Their jaws always hit the floor when I tell them that getting married won't stop their struggles in this area. It is a common misconception.

The truth is that what we are struggling with is a fear of intimacy. People need to be accepted for who they are, yet they fear letting someone else know who they really are. True intimacy lies in the ability to be truly transparent - not to be comfortable with someone, but to be uncomfortably close to someone.

This is what is giving the OP the issue. People fear being rejected, so they lie. The need for acceptance is that strong - they want to be close to someone, but they really don't know how. It takes getting past all of this in order to develop intimacy.

The good news is that as you become more intimate and learn to really love that person, the sex grows and is phenomenal. Not as frequent, but a whole lot more meaningful.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> I agree completely with you on this. I was basically suggesting to MMA that she not give someone a reason to lie to them and they won't. In the same breathe, in order to attain this level of honesty, you have to accept AND understand the other person's actions are part of who they are; whether you agree with them or not. Without the acceptance, you will never achieve the honesty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't agree with this at all. I don't think you've been following the efforts I've put forth, but Mr. Venture is definitely on the same page as I am here. Despite having a different way of being, he has the respect and foresight to know it isn't healthy to try and force oneself to be something they are not and isn't trying to tell me I should learn to accept liars and to force myself to be something I've clearly stated I can not be and maintain a healthy mind. It's certainly been clarified on this forum that not everyone functions that way, which assures me that I am not a freak. Just a bit different from the average person.

I believe that the fault is that men keep feeling justified lying to me and some seem to have a hard time accepting people's ways of thinking outside of their own can be just as healthy. I would never shame anyone for being honest and open about who they are, because I demand open honesty...so that would be counterproductive to progress. What do you think you are doing with this advise? Shaming me for who I am and telling me I should learn to be different, which is exactly what these men have done to me.

If someone has lied to me about the core aspects of what is being shared, I am not going to swallow that and try and live with it on top of trying to trust someone who has proven they can easily lie to me for years without guilt or shame if they simply don't agree with how I feel about something, or feel the same way...and not feel an ounce of regret over anything but being caught.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> 95 percent of men masturbate. The other 5 percent are liars.
> 
> Normal is masturbating and not admitting it.
> 
> ...


Read the article, which basically says what I was going to say. Mutual masturbation is definitely healthy and so is honest!


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

I never feel physically attracted to people unless there's a mental/emotional component. I have urges like a human but don't imagine it with anyone I don't know (or can pretend to know and have a fake connection to). I can't fathom what that's like. I don't care too much when guys watch porn as it's variety and they can't help it but I would be lying if it doesn't play a little into my insecurities. I still struggling to understand how one goes from that - to that. Meaning, if I don't physically lust like most people, it goes without saying I struggle to understand how other people pick their partners. It makes me nervous because I don't understand it. Why sleep with someone you love if they aren't that psychical ideal you lust? (Which I can't relate to). But maybe it's the variety thing. Or maybe they feel like I do at that point but the former situations when people lust each other is something different?

nonetheless it just is painfully obvious not any 2 people will experience their sexuality the same. And I think that's okay. So long as they're not attracted to furniture. That's just ungodly weird.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

niss said:


> I have counseled young men on porn, masturbation, and marriage. Their jaws always hit the floor when I tell them that getting married won't stop their struggles in this area. It is a common misconception.
> 
> The truth is that what we are struggling with is a fear of intimacy. People need to be accepted for who they are, yet they fear letting someone else know who they really are. True intimacy lies in the ability to be truly transparent - not to be comfortable with someone, but to be uncomfortably close to someone.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have put it better myself @niss. Intimacy is a lot like exercise in some respects - the investment is up front, an' the payoff comes after. I'm particularly fond of Brené Brown's phrase "excruciating vulnerability". It takes great _courage_ to show one's true self with others because we all have experience with rejection for it. To paraphrase Carl Whitaker (personal hero) - if you discover you're a sadist, be careful who you share that with. (Really! That was his example! )

@Ms.Anthrope.Altruist, that is definitely one thing I want to validate about your choices. I also work with couples and, in my experience, people can approach developing intimacy in largely one of two ways - crawl up to the line, or jump over it. Personally, I'm a jumper, so that's where I have the most experience. Having said that, the line of acceptance is constantly shifting and, in very loving relationships, it's usually moving forward. You sound like a jumper as well and, while that possibly means experiencing rejection more often, jumping can also teach you a lot about resilience as well.

The flip side - crawling up to the line - might be exemplified by @ningsta kitty (I'm guessing) and some of the other posters on this thread. Crawling is an ultimately slower but safer approach, just as valid. It may be less overtly explicit when it comes to resiliency but, given that injuries can leave scars and baggage, it has its own virtues to recommend it. What I've learned from crawlers is the value of taking smaller, wiser jumps forward, and the benefits of spotting where I might land. These days I am less impulsive about how much I share, and how quickly I share it.

Still a jumper though. *winks*

Anyhoo, I don't think I need to validate your choice to practice sharing your true feelings with others courageously. You seem determined to keep that up, so keep testing those limits. Just remember, no one wants you to sprain your ankle when you land, 'kay?
*offers warm hug*


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

@Mr. Venture a crawler ? Lol! Of all the labels I have I have never heard of that one. But it works I guess :tongue:


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

ningsta kitty said:


> @Mr. Venture a crawler ? Lol! Of all the labels I have I have never heard of that one. But it works I guess :tongue:


Beautiful just the way you are NK *smiles and offers you a warm hug as well*


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Mr.Venture said:


> Beautiful just the way you are NK *smiles and offers you a warm hug as well*


:blushed: Thank you.


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## FePa (Feb 13, 2014)

I'd have a problem with my SO watching porn and masturbating frequently if our sex life was depleted somehow. 
If he is still matching my sex drive and like to indulge in self pleasure, so be it.
The real difference I see between men and women, in very general terms, regarding stimuli needed for masturbation is that the former uses visual aid and the latter, imagination.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

FePa said:


> I'd have a problem with my SO watching porn and masturbating frequently if our sex life was depleted somehow.
> If he is still matching my sex drive and like to indulge in self pleasure, so be it.
> The real difference I see between men and women, in very general terms, regarding stimuli needed for masturbation is that the former uses visual aid and the latter, imagination.


Two things to consider. I'll take them in reverse order from what you've posted.

1) We haven't always had visual aids, yet we've always had masturbation. What I am saying is that while a man tends to be more visually oriented, it is still about imagination.

2) How do you feel about having sex with your SO when they aren't having sex with you? Physically, you are both there, but mentally he is with another woman - a porn image stored in his brain, a girl from work, your best friend, your sister, etc.? I imagine that is a lot less attractive and makes you feel a bit used.

This is how porn/masturbation damages relationships.

Just something to think about.


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## FePa (Feb 13, 2014)

niss said:


> Two things to consider. I'll take them in reverse order from what you've posted.
> 
> 1) We haven't always had visual aids, yet we've always had masturbation. What I am saying is that while a man tends to be more visually oriented, it is still about imagination.
> 
> ...


I think that if the combo porn/masturbation reache levels where he is disconnected mentally from his partner during the real life sex, yes.
But masturbation can also be with memories, fantasy of future acts and desire for the actual partner. 
At least this is how is with me when I'm in a high level sex relationship.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

niss said:


> Two things to consider. I'll take them in reverse order from what you've posted.
> 
> 1) We haven't always had visual aids, yet we've always had masturbation. What I am saying is that while a man tends to be more visually oriented, it is still about imagination.
> 
> ...


Yes. Exactly, this is such a good way to put an example. 

I personally feel the idea of someone touching me while thinking of someone else as a complete violation of my body.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

It certainly is good to be able voice what your wants and needs are.

I'm gonna keep fapping on occasion. So are the vast majority of guys.

If you want us to be honest, then ask nicely, without judgement.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

niss said:


> Two things to consider. I'll take them in reverse order from what you've posted.
> 
> 1) We haven't always had visual aids, yet we've always had masturbation. What I am saying is that while a man tends to be more visually oriented, it is still about imagination.
> 
> ...


That is how it _can_ damage relationships. (Yes it can be damaging.)

Has anyone else here read Mating In Captivity, listened to Esther Perel on TedTalks?


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Mr.Venture said:


> That is how it _can_ damage relationships. (Yes it can be damaging.)
> 
> Has anyone else here read Mating In Captivity, listened to Esther Perel on TedTalks?


We would probably disagree on the can vs does of porn/masturbation and damage to relationships. I view it as a gauge that indicates the direction a relationship is headed - not the direct cause. However, it can become detrimental in and of itself, left unchecked.

I've listened to Brene Brown and Esther Perel and enjoyed them both. I have not read the book.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Actually @niss, while I don't doubt there'd still be differences, your comparison to a barometer tells me we'd agree on a lot.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Mr.Venture said:


> Actually @niss, while I don't doubt there'd still be differences, your comparison to a barometer tells me we'd agree on a lot.


I get the feeling that you are right ... that niggling in the back of my mind is saying, "here's someone that has taken the time to understand the human brain."


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

Karin said:


> What I don't understand is, is there really a need for porn and masturbation when you live with your partner? That's always seemed so redundant to me. Does anyone have any insight on this?


If one partner isn't being physically satisfied by their SO then they might turn to self-stimulation to make up that gap.

Perhaps both partners have a fetish for mutual masturbation.

Perhaps both partners consume porn together because it turns them on/gives them ideas ...

There are lots of reasons, really.


Lord of the Dark Snark


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> When in relationships, or more accurately put, in love...I cease to feel attraction to other people in a physical manner. I can see beauty the same, aesthetically...but it holds no draw to me sexually. [...]
> 
> So I'm curious if anyone else feels this way? If anyone else literally can not be sexually attracted to anyone but the one they are with? Am I just this strange mutation of humanity?


No, you are not. When I'm in a relationship, I'm not sexually attracted to anyone else. Since it takes more than a pair of breasts and a vagina or even being aesthetically appealing to cause me to be sexually interested in someone, if I'm already _with_ someone who has this something more...

But evidently this excludes me from being a "red-blooded American male."


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Karin said:


> What I don't understand is, is there really a need for porn and masturbation when you live with your partner? That's always seemed so redundant to me. Does anyone have any insight on this?


I've never masturbated to pornography before, but as far as masturbation goes, speaking solely for myself, the simple answer is that my partner may not always be/hasn't always been in the mood sexually at the same time I am. And I do not have the right to my partner's body whenever I want simply because we're in a relationship. So if necessary, I take care of it myself, problem solved. 

An orgasm is an orgasm is an orgasm. Physiologically it makes no difference whether you masturbate or have sex with a partner. I don't want my partner to have sex with me if she doesn't also want it as well just for my sake. From both studies and anecdotes from female acquaintances and relatives, many women consider unwanted sex to be a normal part of a relationship, but it isn't as far as I'm concerned. My partner doesn't exist to give me sex on demand. None of the women I've been with have had a problem with it and have found it refreshing. If it's just about release, when it comes down to it, I can "get myself off" more effectively than anyone else can do it anyway.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> ...
> 
> But evidently this excludes me from being a "red-blooded American male."


You can fap to physical stimulation only and never notice a nice set of boobs. 

Got it.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> An orgasm is an orgasm is an orgasm.


Id much rather have sex with someone else. Cumming inside a woman is much more satisfying than fapping.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

I'm also going to disagree with @Master Mind on one little point. While I concur with the general idea that partners don't exist to give each other sexual pleasure - there's no ownership here - almost every single couple contains a mix of two libidos, libidos that undergo change as well according to various life circumstances.

In my line of work there is a saying, "the one who wants it less holds all the power." I've seen that truth in play many many times. Though couples are often resistant to having sex presented as a power struggle, there is no doubt in my mind that many overtures for sex are made when partners have different levels of desire, and the seeker is usually the more vulnerable one in these exchanges. Rejection hurts, and when one partner is always doing the initiating when the other rejects, the relationship suffers.

Let me make this clear - I am not suggesting that the person with the lower libido have sex just because their partner wants it. That doesn't solve anything either. However, if they value the relationship, I often encourage them to explore that lack of desire with their partner in an atmosphere of collaboration. There is usually a period afterward where they are trying to open themselves up to the possibility of experiencing desire, but meeting with little success. They are exploring sex with their partner while their desire is still in limbo. Sometimes their libido doesn't change, but their desire to see their partner fulfilled does. This results in a new balance where one partner does have sex with the other because their _interest_ is tied up in seeing a happy companion. Of course, it's still messy emotionally at that point, so I usually keep inviting couples to continue exploring it with me, but many decide to try this new balance for a while first, and some grow comfortable with it.

All this is to say that there are partners out there who choose to have sex despite less frequent desire, and I have a hard time faulting them that choice.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> You can fap to physical stimulation only and never notice a nice set of boobs.
> 
> Got it.


Hmm. I'm not sure why a presumably heterosexual male would care what another heterosexual male masturbates to. Also somehow getting "never notice a nice pair of breasts" from "it takes more than a pair of breasts and a vagina or even being aesthetically appealing to cause me to be sexually interested in someone" suggests a reading comprehension problem.

I'm also unsure why any of this would be noteworthy as I wouldn't think it would be relevant to another male.



drmiller100 said:


> Id much rather have sex with someone else. Cumming inside a woman is much more satisfying than fapping.


Good for you. Not sure why that's any of my concern seeing how I never asked. If it was solely done to show how much of a man you are, it's childish.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> I'm also unsure why any of this would be noteworthy as I wouldn't think it would be relevant to another male.


Lolz. *genuine smile* It's normalizing to me to hear what other men find attractive in a woman, but I'm gonna watch what I say about that before I cause a derail.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> I'm also going to disagree with @_Master Mind_ on one little point.





Master Mind said:


> *I* don't want my partner to have sex with me if she doesn't also want it as well just for my sake. From both studies and anecdotes from female acquaintances and relatives, many women consider unwanted sex to be a normal part of a relationship, but it isn't *as far as I'm concerned*. *My partner* doesn't exist to give me sex on demand.


I don't see how anything I said was up for disagreement seeing as I was speaking for myself and my relationship partners, with the operative words bolded.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> Hmm. I'm not sure why a presumably heterosexual male would care what another heterosexual male masturbates to. Also somehow getting "never notice a nice pair of breasts" from "it takes more than a pair of breasts and a vagina or even being aesthetically appealing to cause me to be sexually interested in someone" suggests a reading comprehension problem.
> 
> I'm also unsure why any of this would be noteworthy as I wouldn't think it would be relevant to another male.
> 
> ...


Strangely enough it is not all about you.

you share your opinions. I share mine. That's the way it works.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> Strangely enough it is not all about you.
> 
> you share your opinions. I share mine. That's the way it works.


No, it isn't all about me. 

But interestingly enough, a flippant reply to my post _kinda_ has something to do with me. I didn't respond to a random post that had nothing to do with me, nor to any of your prior posts that weren't in direct reply to me.

A good example of the disinhibiting effect of the internet though.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> I don't see how anything I said was up for disagreement seeing as I was speaking for myself and my relationship partners, with the operative words bolded.


Totally fair, and I hope you and your partner never have to struggle with the problems I was describing. "Disagree" was a poor choice of words on my part. I mostly just wanted to illustrate that couple find many solutions, solutions that validate their relationship as they see it. _Disagree_ was a poor choice - maybe _build on_ would have been better.

But I'm also struggling with insomnia that gone on for a week now, so... That. *ugh face*


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> No, it isn't all about me.
> 
> But interestingly enough, a flippant reply to my post _kinda_ has something to do with me. I didn't respond to a random post that had nothing to do with me, nor to any of your prior posts that weren't in direct reply to me.
> 
> A good example of the disinhibiting effect of the internet though.


Why do you share stupid stuff about you? Same reasons I do.

we really are pretty similar when you look at it.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> I'm also going to disagree with @_Master Mind_ on one little point. While I concur with the general idea that partners don't exist to give each other sexual pleasure - there's no ownership here - almost every single couple contains a mix of two libidos, libidos that undergo change as well according to various life circumstances.
> 
> In my line of work there is a saying, "the one who wants it less holds all the power." I've seen that truth in play many many times. Though couples are often resistant to having sex presented as a power struggle, there is no doubt in my mind that many overtures for sex are made when partners have different levels of desire, and the seeker is usually the more vulnerable one in these exchanges. Rejection hurts, and when one partner is always doing the initiating when the other rejects, the relationship suffers.
> 
> ...


There's more things that can affect libido. At least from my observations. I've observed that many women, when resentful and/or not spending enough time bonding with their partners, their libido's drop. Look at world of warcraft widows. I see a lot of resentment and not enough time together as a couple. The men in these examples often still expect sex while I've noticed women commenting they'd sooner stab themselves in the eye. There is going to be an extreme difference in libido whenever there are underlining issues that often one party doesn't acknowledge.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> Why do you share stupid stuff about you? Same reasons I do.


Bzzt!

I posted specifically in reply to questions that had been posed for anyone to answer. Not for an unsolicited, pointless "opinion" that was written in a manner that had a good chance of provoking a response. Though you gotta love the irony of a guy telling someone it isn't all about them and then immediately turning around and saying "You do _x_ for the same reason I do." Projection is the term for it.



drmiller100 said:


> we really are pretty similar when you look at it.


Hardly.

And... continuing the irony, it's funny that random anonymous internet guy tells another random anonymous internet guy that they're pretty similar based on all of two posts that are--as far as I can recall--the only interaction between the two. I.e., nothing.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> Bzzt!
> 
> I posted specifically in reply to questions that had been posed for anyone to answer. Not for an unsolicited, pointless "opinion" that was written in a manner that had a good chance of provoking a response. Though you gotta love the irony of a guy telling someone it isn't all about them and then immediately turning around and saying "You do _x_ for the same reason I do." Projection is the term for it.
> 
> ...


You sure are smart. 

I think smart people are sexy.

smiles


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> You sure are smart.
> 
> I think smart people are sexy.
> 
> smiles


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Mr.Venture said:


> I'm also going to disagree with @Master Mind on one little point. While I concur with the general idea that partners don't exist to give each other sexual pleasure - there's no ownership here - almost every single couple contains a mix of two libidos, libidos that undergo change as well according to various life circumstances.
> 
> In my line of work there is a saying, "the one who wants it less holds all the power." I've seen that truth in play many many times. Though couples are often resistant to having sex presented as a power struggle, there is no doubt in my mind that many overtures for sex are made when partners have different levels of desire, and the seeker is usually the more vulnerable one in these exchanges. Rejection hurts, and when one partner is always doing the initiating when the other rejects, the relationship suffers.
> 
> ...


You've just described love.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

niss said:


> You've just described love.


*re-reads his post* *considers your comment* *suddenly has a warm feeling inside*


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

*ships @Mr.Venture with @niss because hey, why not?*


The Once and Future Feline


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Clear up a total innocent, @hammersklavier - you "shipped" us?


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> Clear up a total innocent, @hammersklavier - you "shipped" us?


Paired you off...

Lord of the Random Ship


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

hammersklavier said:


> Paired you off...
> 
> Lord of the Random Ship


You know you're a "Yellow yodeling yenta", right?


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm a lot of things. 


The Once and Future Feline


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Mr.Venture said:


> *re-reads his post* *considers your comment* *suddenly has a warm feeling inside*


To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, Love isn't affection for someone as much as it is a steady desire for their ultimate good, as much as it is within my power to grant it. Love means being vulnerable to the other person.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

niss said:


> To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, Love isn't affection for someone as much as it is a steady desire for their ultimate good, as much as it is within my power to grant it. Love means being vulnerable to the other person.


Do you work as a couple's therapist as well @niss?


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Mr.Venture said:


> Do you work as a couple's therapist as well @niss?


I don't work as a therapist at all. I'm just an auto mechanic. 

I became involved in a youth program that ended up teaching me/pushing me to learn about people.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

niss said:


> I don't work as a therapist at all. I'm just an auto mechanic.
> 
> I became involved in a youth program that ended up teaching me/pushing me to learn about people.


I've come across a number of your posts now. Truth + simplicity = elegance. You're a real pleasure to talk with. *thumbs up*


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> That's about the extent of my artistic talent. I'm debating between slightly annoying and absolutely infuriating.





Mr.Venture said:


> Absolutely infuriating. I've always found love tastes best with a bit of crazy... Or was that semen...


See that ^? Add some "Bitches love semen!" and you've got #WIN.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

Mr.Venture said:


> Absolutely infuriating. I've always found love tastes best with a bit of crazy... Or was that semen...


My couch IS really comfortable. I could binge watch Breaking Bad again on Netflix....


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> See that ^? Add some "Bitches love semen!" and you've got #WIN.


How about a "my ex really liked it"


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

If I took advice from you guys, there might be some chafing involved. I wouldn't get sex for a year!


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> How about a "my ex really liked it"


I have the best advice. 

Monemi's recommended pick up lines: "Get in the car or I'll stuff you in the trunk."


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

monemi said:


> I have the best advice.
> 
> Monemi's recommended pick up lines: "Get in the car or I'll stuff you in the trunk."


^^^ Ahhahhahaahahahaa!!! *i.e. uncontrollable laughter*


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> ^^^ Ahhahhahaahahahaa!!! *i.e. uncontrollable laughter*


It made me laugh. 

It was either that or offer something hot and creamy. 




Like coffee.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> I have the best advice.
> 
> Monemi's recommended pick up lines: "Get in the car or I'll stuff you in the trunk."


So this is after my wife leaves me for being such an asshole? Then I'll go to jail?

I'm too pretty for jail. That's an exit only!


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> I have the best advice.
> 
> Monemi's recommended pick up lines: "Get in the car or I'll stuff you in the trunk."


How about bringing up the girl at work that my wife can't stand? That's a winner, too.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> So this is after my wife leaves me for being such an asshole? Then I'll go to jail?
> 
> I'm too pretty for jail. That's an exit only!


Well... take my advice with a grain of salt. Conversations with my husband. 

Monemi's Husband: You know, I think we have good chemistry together.

Monemi: I should hope so after two kids. 

Monemi's Husband: We have three kids.

Monemi: No, I have three kids. 





It's okay. He laughed his ass off.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> How about bringing up the girl at work that my wife can't stand? That's a winner, too.


Is there a chore you fail to do around the house for your wife? Tell her you did that chore for the girl at work that your wife can't stand. Sure to cause fireworks.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> Is there a chore you fail to do around the house for your wife? Tell her you did that chore for the girl at work that your wife can't stand. Sure to cause fireworks.


Oh yeah. That's couch territory for sure.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> Is there a chore you fail to do around the house for your wife? Tell her you did that chore for the girl at work that your wife can't stand. Sure to cause fireworks.


It sounds like you speak from experience. Did hubby do that?

Actually, I do just about anything for my wife. Except dishes. I hate doing dishes.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> Oh yeah. That's couch territory for sure.


Hasn't she read the manual on angry sex? 



'Cause I haven't, I'm wayyy too pissed off to consider sex when I'm angry. But you know, maybe she has a better sense of adventure than I do.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> Hasn't she read the manual on angry sex?
> 
> 
> 
> 'Cause I haven't, I'm wayyy too pissed off to consider sex when I'm angry. But you know, maybe she has a better sense of adventure than I do.


When she is pissed, that shit is shut down!


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> It sounds like you speak from experience. Did hubby do that?


No. Hubby's a smart man.  I'm usually the one that says completely inappropriate things and has to apologize. He's also a patient man.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> No. Hubby's a smart man.  I'm usually the one says completely inappropriate things and has to apologize. He's a patient man.


She told me tonight I can be irritating and abrasive at times. 

I call that "direct"


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

Sorry is a good word for married people. I use it frequently.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> She told me tonight I can be irritating and abrasive at times.
> 
> I call that "direct"


I have impulse control problems. I've been told this and realized this. That filter between my brain and my mouth isn't always operating on all cylinders. I blame being raised on Monty Pythons because they're a convenient scapegoat.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> I have impulse control problems. I've been told this and realized this. That filter between my brain and my mouth isn't always operating on all cylinders. I blame being raised on Monty Pythons because they're a convenient scapegoat.


I think is that I have a really dark sense of humor. Things I find hilarious usually piss people off. My wife included. She gets it most of the time, though.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> I think is that I have a really dark sense of humor. Things I find hilarious usually piss people off. My wife included. She gets it most of the time, though.


I don't have to apologize to him for my sense of humour if it's a joke between us. It's when I use my sense of humour around his family and some of his friends I get stuck apologizing. Just because he gets me doesn't mean everyone else can handle it. His father likes me. He laughs. But I give his poor mother heart attacks. That woman is terrified of me and I don't know how to fix it.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

monemi said:


> I don't have to apologize to him for my sense of humour if it's a joke between us. It's when I use my sense of humour around his family and some of his friends I get stuck apologizing. Just because he gets me doesn't mean everyone else can handle it. His father likes me. He laughs. But I give his poor mother heart attacks. That woman is terrified of me and I don't know how to fix it.


Isn't it good to have the mil scared of you?


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

So Christmas is always an event?


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

I'm gonna have to jump of here and get some sleep. Great talking to you tonight! Btw, I am sleeping in my own bed tonight- no thanks to you! ;-)


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

sraddatz said:


> Isn't it good to have the mil scared of you?


I feel like such an asshole around her. She is a very nice, good Catholic French Canadian. You'd think her three son's would marry nice girls like her. But all three of them are married to not very nice, very not French, very blunt women. 



sraddatz said:


> So Christmas is always an event?


Imagine three daughter in laws with a terrified MIL trying to make everything perfect. Lady calm down! His older brother's wife is scarier than me at least. I don't think she gives a crap that our MIL is terrified of us.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> I also work with couples and, in my experience, people can approach developing intimacy in largely one of two ways - crawl up to the line, or jump over it. Personally, I'm a jumper, so that's where I have the most experience. Having said that, the line of acceptance is constantly shifting and, in very loving relationships, it's usually moving forward. You sound like a jumper as well and, while that possibly means experiencing rejection more often, jumping can also teach you a lot about resilience as well.
> 
> The flip side - crawling up to the line - might be exemplified by @ningsta kitty (I'm guessing) and some of the other posters on this thread. Crawling is an ultimately slower but safer approach, just as valid. It may be less overtly explicit when it comes to resiliency but, given that injuries can leave scars and baggage, it has its own virtues to recommend it. What I've learned from crawlers is the value of taking smaller, wiser jumps forward, and the benefits of spotting where I might land. These days I am less impulsive about how much I share, and how quickly I share it.
> 
> ...


You forgot the roll and run options  About a year ago I woke up from a ton of bizarre dreams and there was this kiddie cartoon playing on TV. Training on how to outrun lava or something weird and abstract like that. That was the advice - roll, run, jump; roll, run, jump. In my half asleep stupor this was like profound genius to me, haha. I think about that all the time now - like it was boxing training for consciousness or some nonsense. Gain momentum, make the leap - then and only then - and then land rolling with the punches for a while (what else can you do after leaping, really?) ...but don't get stuck in that flow. Get moving again. I've managed to both explore and pull myself out of some pretty strange and depressing places in the brain space lately with it. Kinda (totally) a derail...but I had to share, lol.

So, well, actually, that does bring me to the topic. @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist - I once dated a guy who wanted complete honesty upfront, and he's also the only dude I've really felt a ton of remorse about breaking things off with. I worry I led him on irresponsibly. This immediate possibility for intimacy was very tempting - but that necessary momentum wasn't there yet. I realized that I need that for sexual attraction, and I need sex for romantic intimacy. The whole experience made me extremely uncomfortable. I tried to throw up walls before jumping in with a little shock humor, charged flirtation, mystery ...and it only made him more controlling in his quest for having all cards on the table. (Which was played as kind of a guilt trip - fight with me or something at least! There was no...spark). I just wasn't there yet, energetically, but I felt like I was "supposed" to be, because I was so caught up in healthy/unhealthy and not my own wants and needs. (I also don't think I ever would have gotten there anyway either, in the vein of honesty. He wasn't my type. The persona was very appealing though, and I wanted him to be).

I think, radically, that vulnerability can also be choosing _not_ to be vulnerable...oddly. I dated this one dude a while ago who threw up walls too. I remember at one point, in a certain moment, realizing - wow, you actually want this don't you? I oddly respected the front despite that though. I think we liked each other in the first place because we could both stubborn asses, lol...after reflecting on it. I lost that at the end of my last relationship, and it's been hell trying to get me back. Dropping some of that again would be awesome, sure - but in time, and only intuitively and instinctually. Are you sure that some of these guys haven't been honest with you, but communicating it in their own way? Maybe that honesty you crave will come in a different package than you're expecting. Or maybe you're offering too much of yourself upfront and drawing in men who wouldn't be crossing your path otherwise? I could be totally off base, but just some thoughts.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

@Veggie makes a good point - honesty with myself has sometimes meant keeping boundaries with others 'till I was ready to share. I like my own house well enough to take care of the lawn, an' I'll figure out in my own due time if I invite someone in for coffee.
@Ms.Anthrope.Altruist, what can you say about the _types_ of honesty you accept from the men you date?


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

Mr.Venture said:


> @_Veggie_ makes a good point - honesty with myself has sometimes meant keeping boundaries with others 'till I was ready to share. I like my own house well enough to take care of the lawn, an' I'll figure out in my own due time if I invite someone in for coffee.
> @_Ms.Anthrope.Altruist_, what can you say about the _types_ of honesty you accept from the men you date?


There aren't types of open honesty in my opinion. There are varying levels of lies, types of manipulation, types of omittance and framing words to appear "honest" without giving the core truth being searched for away, because one knows it won't give the results desired. Painting your truths as lies, via omitting important pieces of truth creating an entirely misleading comprehension, makes them cease to be true. If you don't have a solid truth to share, don't share something that sounds exactly like solid truth. Either you are open and honest in relationships, or you are not. 

One can be open and honest and still be unsure of how they feel. The issue would be reassuring you feel the way someone needs you to, when you aren't sure you feel that way or when you know you do not. There is no claiming you are sharing everything, honestly...when there are honest truths being purposefully buried, avoided or danced around. I'm a firm believer you can't have a healthy relationship if it starts off being built on half-truths and manipulations.... without FULL truth, time will unearth whatever you bury, hide, tuck away or try to disguise as something else...unless both sides are content to bury things and no one is digging for truth...perhaps people can be happy in partially false realities, but I am certainly not one. My time is precious, I don't have enough of it to mess around with people who can't even show me who they really are, but expect me to hand my life over, my time, my experiences and my love and emotions, become intricately tied to them only to find out I've spent years living a lie and loving a liar.

I tell my truth precisely, my truth doesn't vary from person to person according to what they want to hear or what I want from them ...if it did, it would cease to be truth!


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> There are varying levels of lies, types of manipulation, types of omittance and framing words to appear "honest" without giving the core truth being searched for away, because one knows it won't give the results desired. Painting your truths as lies, via omitting important pieces of truth creating an entirely misleading comprehension, makes them cease to be true. If you don't have a solid truth to share, don't share something that sounds exactly like solid truth. Either you are open and honest in relationships, or you are not.


What do you view as omittance? Do you think you've ever asked for something that someone wasn't ready to give? I would personally feel uncomfortable with porn usage being brought up in the early stages, because that's something that's generally private between me and me. I won't give up my core just because someone asks for it - avoidance and...dancing, if you will, are ways to keep the laying of those boundaries playful (crucial for creating chemistry, imo). There is honesty there, if you use your intuition and read between the lines. I also think being careful in how we frame our words, especially in the beginning, is a common respect and decency to the other person. Knowing exactly how the other person wants you to feel too soon is a lot of pressure, too. I see a _little_ manipulation and game playing as natural.

My friend also tried this whole immediate, total upfront honesty with a dude thing and it ended terribly for her. I advised her against it, told her just to let it unfold naturally (whenever I've failed to follow my own advice here disaster has followed), but they were talking marriage and traveling abroad by date three. He said all the right things, they fought basically every other day despite this, often about pure hypotheticals, and they spent more time sharing their feelings than they did bonding. (This is my outside perspective, but I was privy to a lot of details). I personally believe that the unearthing process is unavoidable in even just your relationship with yourself - especially if you value growth. I think he genuinely believed some of what he told her to be the truth at first, but they as a couple were grounded in idealism as opposed to practicality (derived from those opportunities to discover if actions speak louder than words). She was left with a similar situation, single again, two years later, in feeling let down in loving a lie.

How much time do you give something, though? I think when the process is organic timing is as well. Comfort is odd too. I never minded porn when I was younger. I have an ex who would use it as a sort of weapon though - he wouldn't bother to hide it after fights, openly disrespecting basic privacy as an f you to me...and it was more about the principle of that than what he was doing. I felt uncomfortable walking around my own apartment. Conversely, maybe you'd find yourself comfortable with what you find discomfort in now under the right circumstances? Maybe not - but maybe some bridges should wait to be crossed until you come to them? Then you're working with the genuine nature and intent of a moment without that mess of preconception and expectation.

Idk. Just more thoughts.


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> I tell my truth precisely, my truth doesn't vary from person to person according to what they want to hear or what I want from them ...if it did, it would cease to be truth!


A child you know has terminal cancer. They tell you that all they want is for Santa Claus to bring them a specific and expensive type of gift for Christmas. What do you do??


A.) Tell the kid Santa Claus doesn't exists. Further explain to them that they will be dead soon so there is no reason to spend so much money on this type of gift.

B.) Use social media and services to pool together enough money for the gift. Then dress up like Santa Claus and present the child with their wish.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> A child you know has terminal cancer. They tell you that all they want is for Santa Claus to bring them a specific and expensive type of gift for Christmas. What do you do??
> 
> 
> A.) Tell the kid Santa Claus doesn't exists. Further explain to them that they will be dead soon so there is no reason to spend so much money on this type of gift.
> ...


Some people want me to lie to them. When it's what they want to hear and nothing good can come of telling the truth, I give them the lie. My husband is the typical ISFJ there. He expects the truth. I've learned to give the truth even if he does sulk a little. But he doesn't tell other people the truth when he thinks it will hurt their feelings. I don't have a problem with telling the truth, but it's a sign of social intelligence to know when it is and isn't appropriate.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

I find myself leaning with @Veggie on this one. Unlike yourself @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist, I have an exceedingly difficult time claiming most things as unequivocal truth. Heck, I'm a taoist agnostic, so acknowledging the limits of our abilities to discern truth is often where I _start_! I do also believe that personal truth is highly subject to change - and healthily so! Our personal truth should reflect our actual circumstance and, since we are constantly growing and changing as individuals, that truth is subject to change along with us.

Now, this happens much less noticeably with _values_. Values are ideals we hold onto even though they might not serve us in the moment - that is often a defining characteristic! - but they can shift over time as well. I have also tried the whole everything up front from the beginning Veggie mentioned, with exactly the same results. It also resulted in spending much more time with feelings and hypotheticals, rather than presence and bonding - events crucial to relationship _repair_ in my experience.

I consider your situation MAA, and I keep coming back to how the harms you articulate fall into three categories: 1) instances of deception from your partners, 2) feelings of betrayal resulting and, 3) an insecurity regarding your standards for partners on this issue. Is that a fair characterization of the situation?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

monemi said:


> it's a sign of social intelligence to know when it is and isn't appropriate.


I'm pretty stupid. Truth is almost always better.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

@Mr.Venture - You're a Taoist Agnostic? Me too! Well, technically, I say that I'm an Agnostic Theist with Taoist leanings, because the philosophy I studied under for a while was a little _too_ go with the flow for my liking, but I used to go to a temple all the time, and I received an initiation ceremony a couple years ago. That's cool 



Mr.Venture said:


> I do also believe that personal truth is highly subject to change - and healthily so! Our personal truth should reflect our actual circumstance and, since we are constantly growing and changing as individuals, that truth is subject to change along with us.
> 
> Now, this happens much less noticeably with _values_. Values are ideals we hold onto even though they might not serve us in the moment - that is often a defining characteristic! - but they can shift over time as well.


Definitely agree with all that.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> A child you know has terminal cancer. They tell you that all they want is for Santa Claus to bring them a specific and expensive type of gift for Christmas. What do you do??
> 
> 
> A.) Tell the kid Santa Claus doesn't exists. Further explain to them that they will be dead soon so there is no reason to spend so much money on this type of gift.
> ...


I will love the kid as best I can. If the kid is mine I would quit work, drop everything else, and spend as much time as I could helping them as best I could. 
If the kid were not mine, and I respected the parent, I would ask the parent what I can do to help.
If the kid were not mine, and I did not respect the parent, I would do what I could for the kid.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> I
> I have also tried the whole everything up front from the beginning Veggie mentioned, with exactly the same results. It also resulted in spending much more time with feelings and hypotheticals, rather than presence and bonding - events crucial to relationship _repair_ in my experience.
> 
> ?


Truth is my truth, and I can share my truth. I have a LOT of confidence, and am REALLY picky for those I will date for possible LTR. Not nearly as picky if I am single and dating to fuck, but that is a different subject.

I am me. Very very few will want ME. The most efficient method is to tell her all about me. Warts, skeletons, values, ex GF's, etc. All of it. Then she can decide if there are deal breakers in there.

I am attracted to introverts, so she will not share NEARLY as much nearly as quickly. And that's ok. But if she can't take my directness, and my desire for me to be truthful, then we are not a good match and it is better to know sooner.

In the middle of truth dump of ME, chemistry will develop or not. IF it does, and she likes ME, we can date. I switch to monogamous, and we start the process of bonding.

Truth works if you can live day by day. It is easy to get wrapped up in the what ifs, and problems, and looking for problems. If you can live day by day you find most of that shit works itself out, and it comes down to whether we can accept each other or not over long time. 

If i keep truth, and I can accept, so far I almost always stay friends. Yes, breakups bring emotions and hurt feelings, and some distance is a good thing, but over the long haul I am friends with the vast majority of people I date for LTR or date for short term fun.

If I am impeccable with my word, and I question my assumptions, and I remember most disturbances and upsets on her part have nothing to do with me and I do my best, things work out pretty well.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Veggie said:


> @Mr.Venture - You're a Taoist Agnostic? Me too! Well, technically, I say that I'm an Agnostic Theist with Taoist leanings, because the philosophy I studied under for a while was a little _too_ go with the flow for my liking, but I used to go to a temple all the time, and I received an initiation ceremony a couple years ago. That's cool
> 
> Definitely agree with all that.


Agnostic theist with taoist leanings? M'dear, we are most definitely spiritual kin! *his face says, "wicked cool!"*


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> I will love the kid as best I can. If the kid is mine I would quit work, drop everything else, and spend as much time as I could helping them as best I could.
> If the kid were not mine, and I respected the parent, I would ask the parent what I can do to help.
> If the kid were not mine, and I did not respect the parent, I would do what I could for the kid.


I don't care about how you are related to the kid. 

What is your answer to the question?


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## FePa (Feb 13, 2014)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> I don't care about how you are related to the kid.
> 
> What is your answer to the question?


I would give them the present. 
Why not? 
Money cannot buy health or life long happiness but can get you content and satisfaction.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> I don't care about how you are related to the kid.
> 
> What is your answer to the question?


I gave you my answer. What the kid wants and what the kid needs and what will help the kid are 3 different things.

If you are selfish enough to give the kid what he think he wants and call yourself a savior then that is your answer.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> A child you know has terminal cancer. They tell you that all they want is for Santa Claus to bring them a specific and expensive type of gift for Christmas. What do you do??
> 
> 
> A.) Tell the kid Santa Claus doesn't exists. Further explain to them that they will be dead soon so there is no reason to spend so much money on this type of gift.
> ...


I am speaking about romantically, with someone that expects me to share aspects of my life I wouldn't have to otherwise. I also said earlier on this thread that the only time I've ever had a hard time being honest was with the dying.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> I gave you my answer. What the kid wants and what the kid needs and what will help the kid are 3 different things.
> 
> If you are selfish enough to give the kid what he think he wants and call yourself a savior then that is your answer.


This answer is perfect.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

Veggie said:


> What do you view as omittance? Do you think you've ever asked for something that someone wasn't ready to give? I would personally feel uncomfortable with porn usage being brought up in the early stages, because that's something that's generally private between me and me. I won't give up my core just because someone asks for it - avoidance and...dancing, if you will, are ways to keep the laying of those boundaries playful (crucial for creating chemistry, imo). There is honesty there, if you use your intuition and read between the lines. I also think being careful in how we frame our words, especially in the beginning, is a common respect and decency to the other person. Knowing exactly how the other person wants you to feel too soon is a lot of pressure, too. I see a _little_ manipulation and game playing as natural.
> 
> My friend also tried this whole immediate, total upfront honesty with a dude thing and it ended terribly for her. I advised her against it, told her just to let it unfold naturally (whenever I've failed to follow my own advice here disaster has followed), but they were talking marriage and traveling abroad by date three. He said all the right things, they fought basically every other day despite this, often about pure hypotheticals, and they spent more time sharing their feelings than they did bonding. (This is my outside perspective, but I was privy to a lot of details). I personally believe that the unearthing process is unavoidable in even just your relationship with yourself - especially if you value growth. I think he genuinely believed some of what he told her to be the truth at first, but they as a couple were grounded in idealism as opposed to practicality (derived from those opportunities to discover if actions speak louder than words). She was left with a similar situation, single again, two years later, in feeling let down in loving a lie.
> 
> ...


Ok, I should have said I'm a firm believer that I can not have a relationship based off of half-truths and manipulations and dances. I TRY very hard not to assume how other people function or what is best for them, as opposed to me. I recognize everyone is different and needs different things. The only universal thing should really be respect for those differences. I apologize if I mislead you on my views with my poor wording. I do not assume what works for you, only state that if someone wants truth and you aren't sure you can offer open truth and be healthy and happy yourself, that should be expressed to the person requesting truth to maintain their own healthy balance in life.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> Ok, I should have said I'm a firm believer that I can not have a relationship based off of half-truths and manipulations and dances. I TRY very hard not to assume how other people function or what is best for them, as opposed to me. I recognize everyone is different and needs different things. The only universal thing should really be respect for those differences. I apologize if I mislead you on my views with my poor wording. I do not assume what works for you, only state that if someone wants truth and you aren't sure you can offer open truth and be healthy and happy yourself, that should be expressed to the person requesting truth to maintain their own healthy balance in life.


You were clear with your wording. I was pointing out that half-truths, manipulations and dances aren't necessarily lies, depending on when they come up, how they're implemented (i.e. much of what isn't said is meant to be read intuitively - the origination of the whole "take a hint" phrase) and why. Especially when I've found "the open truth" in many of these situations to be deluded idealism (though it may be completely innocent, well intentioned, and the person may not realize so at the time), or lacking in self awareness (we all have our blind spots that need facing), or at the expense of honesty to oneself (i.e. I'm not comfortable with this yet - I think sometimes this plays out subconsciously in odd ways if pushed), that, as you've said, often comes back to ultimately bite one as more grand of a lie in the end. 

I try hard not to assume too. You asked for advice and thoughts so I gave them. I know that I can be happy and healthy as well, but that I simultaneously can't offer complete "open truth" up front because it's bound to change. So if the assumption on your end is that the two go hand in hand (that may have just been the wording I realize) I'll warn that this probably comes across as a bit offensive and patronizing. Open up front about some things? Sure. But if you're throwing personal, private preferences such as porn usage and mere attraction to hypothetical women down from the get-go (I mean how soon are we talking here?) because you want to be loved and loved alone, I find that a bit outside of the scope of what I and other perfectly healthy people are probably willing to go full disclosure on immediately (and yes, rather than lay boundaries, most, notably horny, non-assertive males, seem to pacify or attempt to live up to some challenge as they see it (often due to guilt or shame) that they'll probably fail). Especially since these people at this point have just met you and don't likely love you yet. 

To be totally (hopefully not brutally) honest it kind of sounds like you're setting yourself up, looking for confirmation bias that you're not, and then projecting blame onto the other parties. I believe that the standard one step at a time approach to dating is meant to build the genuine trust necessary to try to personally alleviate some of this and/or constructively work through it. You don't want to throw down the rulebook like you're Sheldon Cooper presenting a roommate agreement and then wonder why conflict arises. If the gamble leaves you feeling balanced, however, I wish you luck with it in the future. You're a step ahead of me there. I don't feel like dealing with it at all momentarily.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

Veggie said:


> You were clear with your wording. I was pointing out that half-truths, manipulations and dances aren't necessarily lies, depending on when they come up, how they're implemented (i.e. much of what isn't said is meant to be read intuitively - the origination of the whole "take a hint" phrase) and why. Especially when I've found "the open truth" in many of these situations to be deluded idealism (though it may be completely innocent, well intentioned, and the person may not realize so at the time), or lacking in self awareness (we all have our blind spots that need facing), or at the expense of honesty to oneself (i.e. I'm not comfortable with this yet - I think sometimes this plays out subconsciously in odd ways if pushed), that, as you've said, often comes back to ultimately bite one as more grand of a lie in the end.
> 
> I try hard not to assume too. You asked for advice and thoughts so I gave them. I know that I can be happy and healthy as well, but that I simultaneously can't offer complete "open truth" up front because it's bound to change. So if the assumption on your end is that the two go hand in hand (that may have just been the wording I realize) I'll warn that this probably comes across as a bit offensive and patronizing. Open up front about some things? Sure. But if you're throwing personal, private preferences such as porn usage and mere attraction to hypothetical women down from the get-go (I mean how soon are we talking here?) because you want to be loved and loved alone, I find that a bit outside of the scope of what I and other perfectly healthy people are probably willing to go full disclosure on immediately (and yes, rather than lay boundaries, most, notably horny, non-assertive males, seem to pacify or attempt to live up to some challenge as they see it (often due to guilt or shame) that they'll probably fail). Especially since these people at this point have just met you and don't likely love you yet.
> 
> To be totally (hopefully not brutally) honest it kind of sounds like you're setting yourself up, looking for confirmation bias that you're not, and then projecting blame onto the other parties. I believe that the standard one step at a time approach to dating is meant to build the genuine trust necessary to try to personally alleviate some of this and/or constructively work through it. You don't want to throw down the rulebook like you're Sheldon Cooper presenting a roommate agreement and then wonder why conflict arises. If the gamble leaves you feeling balanced, however, I wish you luck with it in the future. You're a step ahead of me there. I don't feel like dealing with it at all momentarily.


This has gone in a direction I was not going with this post. I dont need anyone's advice on how to change myself, I'm fine the way I am. I was just curious if I'm the only one that works this way. So I'm going to stop responding here before I get frustrated and fed up with this conversation in a very negative way.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> This has gone in a direction I was not going with this post. I dont need anyone's advice on how to change myself, I'm fine the way I am. I was just curious if I'm the only one that works this way. So I'm going to stop responding here before I get frustrated and fed up with this conversation in a very negative way.


Alright, well would it help if I said I've felt this way in the past too? It's probably not worth dying alone and broken hearted about, however, in regards to your OP. I did give examples of others who work in your way as well, and their situations have ended in the same way that yours have, so you can take or leave that, find camaraderie, dismiss it, whatever. In my experience people are often not who they say or think they are, but shades of grey - and I don't know that this necessarily makes them liars, though you may disagree. My coping strategies aren't yours, fair enough.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Alright, well would it help if I said I've felt this way in the past too? It's probably not worth dying alone and broken hearted about, however, in regards to your OP. I did give examples of others who work in your way as well, and their situations have ended in the same way that yours have, so you can take or leave that, find camaraderie, dismiss it, whatever. In my experience people are often not who they say or think they are, but shades of grey - and I don't know that this necessarily makes them liars, though you may disagree. My coping strategies aren't yours, fair enough.


If you're right and your way is the only way, then it's a good thing I'm stable and solid enough to find happiness and peace being alone, because I would rather live and die alone than live a life like that.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> If you're right and your way is the only way, then it's a good thing I'm stable and solid enough to find happiness and peace being alone, because I would rather live and die alone than live a life like that.


I literally just said that my way isn't the only way. That's what was meant by - "My coping strategies aren't yours, fair enough." I've yet to see your approach work for long, but that doesn't mean that it can't or doesn't. Perhaps just something to consider. Or not. If you are stable and solid enough to find happiness and peace alone than power to you, me too, however that's a turnaround from your OP which I was responding to - "If so, I'm going to die alone or of a broken heart from being lied to so much." Declarations like that concern me, so I was trying to provide another perspective. Flop I guess.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> If you're right and your way is the only way, then it's a good thing I'm stable and solid enough to find happiness and peace being alone, because I would rather live and die alone than live a life like that.


I don't normally speak up like this, but @Veggie has approached you with compassion and honesty, and your response gives every impression of insulting and superior behavior. You've heard from people on this thread who share your approach or values, and I too have done my best to honor your choices. Your unwillingness to meet concerned participants, when they differ in their perspective, with the same understanding they are willing to offer tells me the only purpose of this thread is to surround yourself in an echo-chamber of total validation. I'm sorry, but no one will ever be able offer that to you - total acceptance. It's not because you are special in that regard, though the harsh judgement you've displayed toward some of the caring overtures made on this thread make it particularly unlikely.

I'm leaving this thread as well, but I invite you to consider the loving approach some people on this thread have tried with you, the honesty they have displayed on their part - and how it's been received. This might very well reflect parallels in the struggles you find in your personal life, particularly around this topic. Luckily, you have a record to revisit here that you can read again and again as you introspect on this. Assuming you choose to, instead of choosing to go around the block again in your relationships here and elsewhere.

As for myself, I'm not interested in witnessing - nor supporting - acid comments lashed at fellow posters who have been kind and honest, approaching in a true spirit of collaboration and empathy. I'm outta here.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Veggie;10553178I was pointing out that half-truths said:


> Horse crap. They are lies.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> I
> 
> As for myself, I'm not interested in witnessing - nor supporting - acid comments lashed at fellow posters who have been kind and honest, approaching in a true spirit of collaboration and empathy. I'm outta here.


maslow, Keegan, Piaget all talk about about self actualization. The idea is you reach a higher state of consciousness where you can be completely honest with yourself, your life, and others.

Honesty is a worthy goal. Finding happiness in yourself, finding happiness in being "enough" by yourself, finding acceptance in not always being happy can get you there.

I find the Four Agreements to be useful. I find Truth to be a worthy goal, and it does make my life simpler, and better.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> Horse crap. They are lies.


Uh huh. So is "open honesty" by people who are usually lying to others and themselves (even if they don't realize it). However, tactics that are at least self aware of the fact that they are possibly attempting to alleviate those grander lies are lesser lies and more honest in their own way.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> maslow, Keegan, Piaget all talk about about self actualization. The idea is you reach a higher state of consciousness where you can be completely honest with yourself, your life, and others.


Are you there? I want a thesis


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Veggie said:


> Uh huh. So is "open honesty" by people who are usually lying to others and themselves (even if they don't realize it). However, tactics that are at least self aware of the fact that they are possibly attempting to alleviate those grander lies are lesser lies and more honest in their own way.


bullshit. knowing you are lying, and doing it anyway is the lowest form of lies. I absolutely despise your line of reasoning in this post.

It is very hard to be honest or truthful. I agree most people can't do it, but if you don't practice you will never get good at it.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Veggie said:


> Are you there? I want a thesis



http://developmentalobserver.blog.c...iew-of-constructive-developmental-theory-cdt/


Truth is my path to higher planes. Others have other paths, but Truth is my path. I am very sensitive to people rationalizing lies, and my sensitivity is a sign I'm not fully at a higher level. 

Can you explain how being ok with giving lies, or half lies, will allow you to be a better person from your perspective?


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> bullshit. knowing you are lying, and doing it anyway is the lowest form of lies. I absolutely despise your line of reasoning in this post.
> 
> It is very hard to be honest or truthful. I agree most people can't do it, but if you don't practice you will never get good at it.


I've never advocated knowing lying (and I retract my previous statement of "uh huh" to read as "nuh uh"). I've advocated enforcing boundaries when you know that the "truth" is (or likely will/could be) a lie. Most people don't need you to spell it out and say "I am now enforcing a boundary - you will know this because of x, y, z". That was my point.

I'm not a fan of your line of reasoning either. It kinda reads as me, me, me...from my perspective of what I've seen.



drmiller100 said:


> Truth is my truth, and I can share my truth. I have a LOT of confidence, and am REALLY picky for those I will date for possible LTR. Not nearly as picky if I am single and dating to fuck, but that is a different subject.
> 
> I am me. Very very few will want ME. The most efficient method is to tell her all about me. Warts, skeletons, values, ex GF's, etc. All of it. Then she can decide if there are deal breakers in there.
> 
> ...


Where does her process come into that? I'm assuming you don't care. Correct me if I'm wrong.




drmiller100 said:


> Can you explain how being ok with giving lies, or half lies, will allow you to be a better person from your perspective?


I already have, along with playing with the idea of truth. I just thought you might have something original to say too. Names like Maslow don’t exactly live in the underground realms of the mystics.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Veggie said:


> I
> 
> I'm not a fan of your line of reasoning either. It kinda reads as me, me, me...from my perspective of what I've seen.
> 
> ...


I want someone who can take care of herself. Her process is her process. We will mesh, or we will not. If I am honest, and direct, and communicative, and vulnerable, I am doing what I can to help US figure out if we are a good match.

What do you think of Kegan's theories? First I've run into qprocess. have you heard of it before? 
Is it safe to say you are "green tier 1" in the doc below?
a fascinating read if you are interested is attached below. 

www.theqeffect.com/TranspersonalPsychology.docx


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> I want someone who can take care of herself. Her process is her process. We will mesh, or we will not. If I am honest, and direct, and communicative, and vulnerable, I am doing what I can to help US figure out if we are a good match.
> 
> What do you think of Kegan's theories? First I've run into qprocess. have you heard of it before?
> Is it safe to say you are "green tier 1" in the doc below?
> ...


I'll read it and provide thoughts tomorrow.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> maslow, Keegan, Piaget all talk about about self actualization. The idea is you reach a higher state of consciousness where you can be completely honest with yourself, your life, and others..


Ugh. I can't believe I am wading back in, but if you are citing Maslow as your source... Maslow believed that _at most_ 2% of people came anywhere close to self-actualization. Any one in the helping profession these days understands that he was an elitist, and his vision of a well-lived life was highly exclusionary. Piaget worked from unscientific and Euro-centric models and, not only did his teaching methods not work, he certainly underestimated the cognitive abilities of children. I have no idea who this Keegan is - which tells me something - but if they are anything like your other two sources, then they are well out-of-date.

Honesty is a lovely value to strive for. The Four Agreements are a wonderfully deep roadmap toward practicing greater compassion in one's life. However, I have no doubt Ruiz would agree with me when I say, "if you think you've already arrived, you have a long way to go." In fact Ruiz makes it extremely clear that he expects the process of practicing honesty to be one of continuous self-discovery. If you think for a moment you can stop applying these agreements in your own life, you are already forgetting the very message he is offering:
3) Don't make assumptions
4) Always do your best

These agreements are effective _precisely_ because they are meant to be applied again and again and again. I am a huge fan of his work, exactly for the reason that he presents a path to wisdom that is practical and applicable - but one needs to keep applying it over the course of one's life. Clearly you need more practice yourself. Try working them in reverse order - you know, to switch it up. I assure you you can recognize significant benefits that way.

Just remember: after you have _tried your best_ to _not make assumptions_, to _not take things personally_, that you be _impeccable with your word_ by showing the same grace I am *amazed* that @Veggie has had the patience to display.

*kicks himself* I don't like making other people's problem's my own because I truly would rather believe they are capable of taking care of themselves. I'm currently NOT succeeding in the whole _making it personal_ business, but I'm going to step in anyway. As Ruiz said himself, if one can be impeccable with their word, one can master every other agreement. He clearly meant that such cleanliness of speech was an ideal that could not truly be achieved, like most Buddhists understand they will have another cycle in this world. Even so, his intent to demonstrate the importance of this one agreement as a barometer of spiritual progress is obvious.

I cannot prevent @Veggie from posting, but I invite you to consider the assumptions you are making about her stance because - I guarantee - you are doing so. Veggie has made it very clear that he is referring to many forms of honesty, and that he is presenting honesty of these forms to his partners. To _assume_ that verbalized honesty is the only legitimate form is to _make an assumption_ that is clearly unwarranted. Words are a form of action, and actions can be honest too. I invite you, once again, to not take things personally, and try your best.

Stubborn me... I think we can do better.


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## sraddatz (Nov 7, 2009)

Can we talk about porn, now? That's all a little too serious.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Uh huh. So is "open honesty" by people who are usually lying to others and themselves (even if they don't realize it). However, tactics that are at least self aware of the fact that they are possibly attempting to alleviate those grander lies are lesser lies and more honest in their own way.


If someone is that unaware of themselves, I will be aware of it and not be attracted to them. I'm not interested in people who don't know themselves well enough to know when they are being honest or not. It's very unlikely I would ever fall in love with someone with such an abstract and personally detached or unaware way of thinking/being. If someone is lying to me, they are outright and directly lying to me or, again, purposefully and consciously omitting information that would convey the actual truth. If this is their general way of being I will notice and not be interested in developing the relationship further, before it ever reaches a point where it would be a concern in a relationship.

The fact you didn't just say what you had to say, but you insisted upon your views and opinions which are abstract and vague and all encompassing, not focusing on relationships and porn specifically...has made these interactions feel antagonizing. You seem very insistent upon yourself and your own views, despite my attempts to diffuse you from pushing them further. I'd have to know you very well and you would have to know me very well and for a long time, in order to make the assumptions and give the advice you are offering here. It feels arrogant to me to not only start giving advice about why I should find ways to accept certain types of "lies, dances and manipulations", but to assume you know how I view truth beyond what was directly expressed in this thread!

You just kind of started making assumptions about who I am and how I function in regards to truth and imposing your own ideas of what truth is and/or should be considered, in such an abstract manner so outside the lines of the porn subject I was originally speaking of that I can't even begin to respond to what you are saying. 

It doesn't help I absolutely don't agree with a lot of what you've said about truth, but I am desperately trying to respect your different way of being while you blatantly are not doing the same. This isn't a "what is your idea of truth/acceptable truth" thread. It was about porn and relationships and how people feel about that and asking what others views were. Not, "advise me on how to think and be more like you and when I don't respond the way you want, insist upon yourself until I feel anxious and frustrated!"

I don't respond well to self-insistent arrogance. That is the vibe that I'm getting.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> http://developmentalobserver.blog.c...iew-of-constructive-developmental-theory-cdt/
> 
> 
> Truth is my path to higher planes. Others have other paths, but Truth is my path. I am very sensitive to people rationalizing lies, and my sensitivity is a sign I'm not fully at a higher level.
> ...


I prefer the truth, but a lot of people can't handle it. Giving them the lies they want or at least not exposing the truth before they're ready, doesn't help me become a better person. But I see no need to alienate them and force them to deal with a reality they aren't developmentally prepared for. If they aren't ready, nothing good will come of it. The world is not just about me and what I want. It's one thing for me to not conform. It's another thing entirely to shove my perspective down other peoples throats.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> Veggie has made it very clear that he is referring to many forms of honesty, and that *he* is presenting honesty of these forms to his partners. To _assume_ that verbalized honesty is the only legitimate form is to _make an assumption_ that is clearly unwarranted. Words are a form of action, and actions can be honest too. I invite you, once again, to not take things personally, and try your best.


*She. I just decided that I'd more than earned my man card at this point in my life the other night, so I decided to officially gift myself with one in the form of a PerC gender identity tag  



Mr.Venture said:


> Just remember: after you have tried your best to not make assumptions, to not take things personally, that you be impeccable with your word by showing the same grace I am amazed that @Veggie has had the patience to display.


I think you're giving me a little too much credit, but I appreciate it 



drmiller100 said:


> Is it safe to say you are "green tier 1" in the doc below?


_•	Green – emerges to bring connection and care back into focus, caring about others, not just ourselves. Caring about all of life is valued. Tolerance is preached, although there is no tolerance afforded to the intolerant. Willingness to consider multiple view points, to honor all, to seek consensus in decision making, to curb excess for the good of others. Spirituality and spiritualism are born and people begin to become focused on spiritual development. When seeking spiritual highs proves to be a distraction from true development and the inaction created by the demand for consensus devolves into a tragic mess…_

Hmm, tolerance is preached. Not really. I more preach that I think intolerance, to an extent, and in certain regards, is natural. That being said, I think that being tolerant to the intolerant who preach tolerance (pseudo-liberals) is a specialty of mine, lol, though my patience there is beginning to wear thin... 

I don't care if we reach a consensus either. My concern is minimal as I don't really have an invested interest here. The OP and some of the subsequent responses read as a little melodramatic though imo. Granted, I'm no stranger to melodrama - you can find embarrassing displays of it attached to posts of mine littered all around the sub-forums, lol...but I'm usually brought back in those episodes by honest pragmatism, so long as the person isn't being a total a-hole about it. I guess I was attempting that. @Ms.Anthrope.Altruist - If you feel that I somehow entered a-hole territory then I apologize, as that wasn't my intent.



Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> If someone is that unaware of themselves, I will be aware of it and not be attracted to them. I'm not interested in people who don't know themselves well enough to know when they are being honest or not.


Are you sure? Because according to your OP these are the men that you consistently fall for. Just saying. That's not me being arrogant and self-insisting so much as it is an insistence on the facts of what I've been working with in this given interaction. 



Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> You seem very insistent upon yourself and your own views, despite my attempts to diffuse you from pushing them further. I'd have to know you very well and you would have to know me very well and for a long time, in order to make the assumptions and give the advice you are offering here. It feels arrogant to me to not only start giving advice about why I should find ways to accept certain types of "lies, dances and manipulations", but to assume you know how I view truth beyond what was directly expressed in this thread!


Your situation sounds like ones I've seen and experienced in the past. I was providing another perspective. I honestly don't care if you're uninterested in considering it. I've already acknowledged this and attempted to drop it. There's a degree of assumption to every response on this board. (I think this is relevant, I think this is useful here, etc). 



Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> The fact you didn't just say what you had to say, but you insisted upon your views and opinions which are abstract and vague and all encompassing, not focusing on relationships and porn specifically...


I gave specific examples of relationships, actually, and yes, I did bring porn into the equation. I told the story of how I didn't used to have a problem with porn, and was upfront about this, but changed my stance on it when an ex began to use it and masturbation as a weapon against me. Then I pointed out that this is an example of how truth evolves over the course of individual relationships.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr.Venture said:


> .. Maslow believed that _at most_ 2% of people came anywhere close to self-actualization. Any one in the helping profession these days understands that he was an elitist, and his vision of a well-lived life was highly exclusionary. r.


Yes. I agree with most of what you wrote. What you call exclusionary is another way to say most people are happy. Society's standards help set the standards of what people strive for, and no location or country is self actualized as the standard.

Instead we have people like you helping to enforce the 98 percent rule. 

Thank you? What can i offer you to show my gratitude?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

I've never kept it a secret from anyone I was with. My wife knows. I don't do it all the time, but occasionally, I do like to see what's out there. She's still my best friend and the person I want to fall asleep with every night and wake up to every day.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

monemi said:


> I prefer the truth, but a lot of people can't handle it. Giving them the lies they want or at least not exposing the truth before they're ready, doesn't help me become a better person. But I see no need to alienate them and force them to deal with a reality they aren't developmentally prepared for. If they aren't ready, nothing good will come of it. The world is not just about me and what I want. It's one thing for me to not conform. It's another thing entirely to shove my perspective down other peoples throats.


Thank you. As usual, you are right. 

What I find interesting, and the qeffect doc points out is people at different tiers are all convinced they are right. As you move up the stairs of actualization your perspective shifts, and you look back and see EVERYONE. You can't look up the stairs and use the uphill perspectives as you have not learned them yet. 

But if you look at ANYONE you see them through the perspective of lower stairs. 

Ultimately it is not my place to help anyone. Everyone must make the journey for themselves. That is a hard concept for me. I have been ingrained to fix, to help. I must shed this view to make much progress.


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> Yes. I agree with most of what you wrote. What you call exclusionary is another way to say most people are happy. Society's standards help set the standards of what people strive for, and no location or country is self actualized as the standard.
> 
> Instead we have people like you helping to enforce the 98 percent rule.
> 
> Thank you? What can i offer you to show my gratitude?


*belly laughs* Wow! You got them agreements down _pat_, don't you! That's fine 'cause...



tanstaafl28 said:


> I've never kept it a secret from anyone I was with. My wife knows. I don't do it all the time, but occasionally, I do like to see what's out there. She's still my best friend and the person I want to fall asleep with every night and wake up to every day.


... I'm perfectly happy to halt this derail and give this thread back to the OP and let others have their say on the topic.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> When in relationships, or more accurately put, in love...I cease to feel attraction to other people in a physical manner. I can see beauty the same, aesthetically...but it holds no draw to me sexually. It's easy to imagine how this has complicated my love life over the years. I need my love returned this way and it seems to me, there is no reason it shouldn't be. Unless I have a complete misunderstanding about the depth and dynamics of the biology of gender or whatever. I offer everything in a relationship. I am a very considerate and compromising partner, I'm very open minded and I ask for nothing I don't offer in return. Ever.
> 
> I need truth, honesty from a partner, but they always end up lying to me about their porn habits and preferences and how they feel about such matters, like seeing attractive girls. I am very intuitive, nothing gets by me (even when i really wish it would)...so this leads to some forms of unhealthy jealousy and mistrust, because I feel I've been lied to right from the start about who the person is and how they function. That turns into them telling me I'm crazy to expect such things and watching porn is natural and checking out every other pretty girl that walks by is natural. Which leads me to saying, no....love, oxytocin bonding and flesh sex is natural...when we still lived natural lives if you wanted to watch someone screwing you had to be a creeper or join a 3+some. There's nothing natural about modern porn, or internet. Get real.
> 
> ...


I can't relate - although I've been with my partner for 9 years , I still have actors crushes and if I see somebody attractive - I'll think " yeah he's cute " but with that said I've never had thoughts of being unfaithful . My husband checks out girls and watches porn - sometimes we do those things together - I'm completely fine with it . I believe people lie about these things bc they're afraid of hurting their partners feelings - I have a friend who would get insanely hurt if she see her bf looking through a sports illustrated magazine and it makes sense to me that he would lie that he has no interest in those things bc it'll hurt her more if she knows and honestly the thoughts through his head is probably "whoa she's hot " I believe when people commit - they're committed - as for eye candies are just eye candies - I hope you find somebody who shares the same view as you but if not realize that "the one you're with" is the only partner they want to be with . Checking another person out doesn't equal to infidelity


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Veggie said:


> *She. I just decided that I'd more than earned my man card at this point in my life the other night, so I decided to officially gift myself with one in the form of a PerC gender identity tag


You learned how to pee standing up?

Impressive.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

HOLYSHIZZY said:


> You learned how to pee standing up?
> 
> Impressive.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Veggie said:


>





















http://www.p-mate.nl/en/


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> When in relationships, or more accurately put, in love...I cease to feel attraction to other people in a physical manner. I can see beauty the same, aesthetically...but it holds no draw to me sexually. It's easy to imagine how this has complicated my love life over the years. I need my love returned this way and it seems to me, there is no reason it shouldn't be. Unless I have a complete misunderstanding about the depth and dynamics of the biology of gender or whatever. I offer everything in a relationship. I am a very considerate and compromising partner, I'm very open minded and I ask for nothing I don't offer in return. Ever.
> 
> I need truth, honesty from a partner, but they always end up lying to me about their porn habits and preferences and how they feel about such matters, like seeing attractive girls. I am very intuitive, nothing gets by me (even when i really wish it would)...so this leads to some forms of unhealthy jealousy and mistrust, because I feel I've been lied to right from the start about who the person is and how they function. That turns into them telling me I'm crazy to expect such things and watching porn is natural and checking out every other pretty girl that walks by is natural. Which leads me to saying, no....love, oxytocin bonding and flesh sex is natural...when we still lived natural lives if you wanted to watch someone screwing you had to be a creeper or join a 3+some. There's nothing natural about modern porn, or internet. Get real.
> 
> ...


So, when you fantasized (or for instance masturbated alone), you only thought about your partner? You never flirted with anyone else? Even just to feel attractive? Or don't you need any affirmation, except from the one and only, that you are the only one?


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

mimesis said:


> So, when you fantasized (or for instance masturbated alone), you only thought about your partner? You never flirted with anyone else? Even just to feel attractive? Or don't you need any affirmation, except from the one and only, that you are the only one?


Yes, I would generally imagine the last "hottest" sexual session I had and that would be more than enough for me, if my partner at the time was not available. I do not flirt with anyone, no urge or desire to and if someone tries to flirt with me when I'm in love I become uncomfortable speaking to them, if they know I'm in a relationship. There's very little flirt in me and it really only comes out when I'm falling in love or in love. I only feel unattractive if I feel I'm failing to interest or attract my partner to the degree I feel I should be (in other words, if I dont feel he's as into me or if I feel he is dissatisfied or I can't meet his needs, I may grow insecure). Seeking reassurance outside of the relationship would be pointless. I don't care what someone I don't know thinks of how I look, or how appealing I am in that sense. I know there are men that would find me sexually and romantically appealing, I don't need to go out in the universe and prove it. 

I don't understand the last question about affirmation?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> Yes, I would generally imagine the last "hottest" sexual session I had and that would be more than enough for me, if my partner at the time was not available. I do not flirt with anyone, no urge or desire to and if someone tries to flirt with me when I'm in love I become uncomfortable speaking to them, if they know I'm in a relationship. There's very little flirt in me and it really only comes out when I'm falling in love or in love. I only feel unattractive if I feel I'm failing to interest or attract my partner to the degree I feel I should be (in other words, if I dont feel he's as into me or if I feel he is dissatisfied or I can't meet his needs, I may grow insecure). *Seeking reassurance outside of the relationship would be pointless. I don't care what someone I don't know thinks of how I look, or how appealing I am in that sense. I know there are men that would find me sexually and romantically appealing, I don't need to go out in the universe and prove it.*
> 
> I don't understand the last question about affirmation?


Good for you. You don't need to prove anything to anyone other than to keep on keeping on. Or something like that.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> Yes, I would generally imagine the last "hottest" sexual session I had and that would be more than enough for me, if my partner at the time was not available. I do not flirt with anyone, no urge or desire to and if someone tries to flirt with me when I'm in love I become uncomfortable speaking to them, if they know I'm in a relationship. There's very little flirt in me and it really only comes out when I'm falling in love or in love. I only feel unattractive if I feel I'm failing to interest or attract my partner to the degree I feel I should be (in other words, if I dont feel he's as into me or if I feel he is dissatisfied or I can't meet his needs, I may grow insecure). Seeking reassurance outside of the relationship would be pointless. I don't care what someone I don't know thinks of how I look, or how appealing I am in that sense. I know there are men that would find me sexually and romantically appealing, I don't need to go out in the universe and prove it.
> 
> I don't understand the last question about affirmation?


Well, what is nice about flirting, is that it can make you feel you have something to offer. That's a point. 

I'd say it's pointless to make yourself so much emotionally dependent on the one person who you give yourself to. The jealousy and security /trust issues are comparable with the relation of an addicted with just one supplier (of worth). It becomes zero-sum. And maybe not just involving his attraction to other women, but anything he spends (quality) time with, could be seen as a potential competitor. And then it's all their fault while you can't help falling in love, getting hooked. 

Anyway, my ex tried to make me believe she never flirted with anyone else and never fantasized about anyone other than me. I told her I couldn't buy that (and I explained why). But also, that I wouldn't blame her if she would. After that she admitted. And ever since, she would even come home sometimes, sharing the joy of an flirt earlier that day with me, and how it made her feel. Which could make me feel proud too. I mean, she is indeed attractive, so it's supposed to happen. Pointless to you, but not to me. 

I didn't expect you to be honest here about your fantasies. There's no way to find out right? The only one who can be sure to trust you is you. I think there would be some cognitive dissonance to say the least, to think about him at times you feel he is dissatisfied, and you're yearning to feel loved.

But, if you weren't being honest here, and again only you know that, obviously that would make this thread a bit pointless.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

mimesis said:


> Well, what is nice about flirting, is that it can make you feel you have something to offer. That's a point.
> 
> I'd say it's pointless to make yourself so much emotionally dependent on the one person who you give yourself to. The jealousy and security /trust issues are comparable with the relation of an addicted with just one supplier (of worth). It becomes zero-sum. And maybe not just involving his attraction to other women, but anything he spends (quality) time with, could be seen as a potential competitor. And then it's all their fault while you can't help falling in love, getting hooked.
> 
> ...


See, now, put like that I'd have to argue that if you feel the need to flirt with other people to feel you have something to offer, perhaps you are the one too emotionally dependent on what other people think? Wouldn't it be healthier to know you have something to offer...and simply wonder on occasion why your partner doesn't seem to recognize that and if it's because what you are offering is no longer what they need to feel happy/satisfied with the relationship/you? 

I'm not putting my emotional well being on another person, but people do have the ability to throw off ones internal peace and balance (especially an introvert). I'm well and balanced without them in my life. It is, in fact, the addition of an emotional relationship in my life that leaves me vulnerable and open to these things. This is normal, human...this is why alcoholics in AA and people struggling to overcome addiction and illness are advise to avoid relationships. They complicate things, make things emotional and chaotic in places there would be order and calm. The way I maintain my healthy balance, is by knowing myself and the fundamentals of what I need and knowing the limits of what I can handle in another person I choose to bring into my life. This helps cut back on unnecessary drama and nonsense and negativity....so long as the other person is being honest and open.

As for your ex, I think that's the kind of socially accepted mentality that makes me nervous; people feeling like that's how they are SUPPOSED to be and feeling the need to pretend or feeling some deep-seeded guilt for being themselves. That breaks my heart. I think in your situation, it sounds like you both found a healthy and honest balance and that's fantastic (well, except that she's an ex now. sorry...or congratulations? you never know with these things...)

Never pointless. I appreciate the point of view and the input!


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> See, now, put like that I'd have to argue that if you feel the need to flirt with other people to feel you have something to offer, perhaps you are the one too emotionally dependent on what other people think?


Whatever you say Ms. Selfworth. I am not jealous or struggling with security issues. I don't need to start a thread for other people's opinions. 

It's simple "unconditional acceptance". If you don't like it, don't waste your life, and the blessing you bring an move on. 





Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> Wouldn't it be healthier to know you have something to offer...and simply wonder on occasion why your partner doesn't seem to recognize that and if it's because what you are offering is no longer what they need to feel happy/satisfied with the relationship/you?


You want to be nr. 1. And the only one. You prefer to believe promises made under influence of brain chemistry on a pink cloud. (I can give you the specs on that)



Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> I'm not putting my emotional well being on another person, but people do have the ability to throw off ones internal peace and balance (especially an introvert). I'm well and balanced without them in my life.


Except when other people mess it up, I guess? That's actually a thing that amazes me, women do great without a man. But when they get into a relationship, they'll soon, start wondering "what are you thinking?", "what is it that we have?" Research shows that when women are happy, it's usually because their relation is satisfactory. That's how women generally establish self-worth, how they are valued by others. (men look more at intrinsic value, like competence, performance). 



Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> It is, in fact, the addition of an emotional relationship in my life that leaves me vulnerable and open to these things. This is normal, human...this is why alcoholics in AA and people struggling to overcome addiction and illness are advise to avoid relationships. They complicate things, make things emotional and chaotic in places there would be order and calm. The way I maintain my healthy balance, is by knowing myself and the fundamentals of what I need and knowing the limits of what I can handle in another person I choose to bring into my life. This helps cut back on unnecessary drama and nonsense and negativity....so long as the other person is being honest and open.


Ow, just forget about relationships. 



Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> As for your ex, I think that's the kind of socially accepted mentality that makes me nervous; people feeling like that's how they are SUPPOSED to be and feeling the need to pretend or feeling some deep-seeded guilt for being themselves. That breaks my heart. I think in your situation, it sounds like you both found a healthy and honest balance and that's fantastic (well, except that she's an ex now. sorry...or congratulations? you never know with these things...)


If you read better, we are actually more ourselves, and honest and open, rather than following how it's supposed to be, which is closer to the ideal you cling to, and which I think is a fairytale on brain chemistry. Been there, didn't work. 

And she is still a soulmate, and in a way we get along better than we ever did, and I couldn't stop her making herself too much emotionally dependent, putting me on a pedestal. (I had done a similar thing before too) And she likes it now, relying on herself, distributing dependency and risk. I couldn't wish for more, because I love her. 



Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> Never pointless. I appreciate the point of view and the input!


My pleasure.


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## LemonyLimeClementine (Jan 20, 2013)

mimesis said:


> Whatever you say Ms. Selfworth. I am not jealous or struggling with security issues. I don't need to start a thread for other people's opinions.
> 
> It's simple "unconditional acceptance". If you don't like it, don't waste your life, and the blessing you bring an move on.
> 
> ...


Not sure how this turned negative again, but I am now bowing out of this thread.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Ms.Anthrope.Altruist said:


> Not sure how this turned negative again, but I am now bowing out of this thread.


I was under the impression you appreciated honesty, and that you invited people to exchange views. So, I am exchanging views, not personal judgements.


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## HOLYSHIZZY (Dec 31, 2013)

Without lying to yourself or the one you love, it is impossible to be true to oneself and true to your lover whilst in a relationship. 

That is of course, unless you are in love with only yourself.


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## ForestPaix (Aug 30, 2014)

People these days think WAAAY too much about sex. It's everywhere in the media, TV, music videos, all selling sex. My personal belief is that sex is one of the highest expressions of love, and intimate, rather than of pleasure, but it's not the most important thing in life.
I have read that porn tends to destroy many relationships, and it's important that if you do watch it, tell your partner, be totally honest with them, and not just for porn, be honest about everything.
I guess most woman would feel betrayed to find out that their loved one is secretly watching another woman have sex, since he's probably imagining himself to have sex with that woman. If you do watch porn, and want to keep on watching it, but your partner doesn't want you to, respect them. Something wrong if you can't give up that for your partner, whom you presumably love. Same for the other side, try understand why they are watching porn, and why it's such a secret, try watch it together maybe. 
Just my advice, even though I have no sexual experience lol.


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