# NF values! Soul Mates, Empathy, Mysticism, Authenticity & LOVE!



## thedavidhooker (Jan 24, 2011)

quietly said:


> Now what in the holy fuck is this? I think it is rather difficult to misinterpret an entire video about how other types are inferior at love to intuitive feelers. I don't think people are taking that literally, I think they're taking it for what it is: Self-absorbed douchebaggery.


I still love you even though you think that.  *hugs*


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Trilobite said:


> People seem to be not only reading into what Dave says in the video and in subsequent posts in this thread too literally but also way, way too personally.
> 
> He's not saying NFs are the only people with a heart or the ability to get all gushy about emotional endeavors. What he's saying, again, as others have mentioned, from a very NF perspective, is that idealists... being what they are, tend to idealize -- no, better yet, ROMANTICIZE notions such as love, romance, relationships and the like. Of course, they're not the only types who do this at all, but they are the most likely, given their values and feelings and how they interpret and express emotions. Neither are things such as love and relationships the only things an NF will idealize, but for most of the NFs I've ever known (by far, I know more NFs than any other type), tend to end up having very romantic views on... well... romance, among other things that catch their fancy.
> 
> I can only personally speak from the position of an ESFJ, and I experience love and have views on it and am known to idealize it myself, but I can say I do it in quite a different way than any NFs I know. This does not change what the feelings are or how important they are, but simply how they are viewed and expressed. Which, really, is all the MBTI tries to show: a difference in how we view, think, feel and express in the world.


@Trilobite I want to thank you very much for this. I was rather confused actually when people seemed upset, because I understood them the same as you have stated so perfectly here. 

As an NF I would have to agree that love is one of the main ideals that most if not all of us have. It certainly seems to be the main goal and driving force in the life of most NFs. Ideal love is something we seem to obsess over. For as long as I can remember my greatest ambition in life has been to marry my true love and then invest myself in his well being - particulaly his emotional well being, as well as to have children of my own on whom I could, again, lavish all my love and care. While there are other things I want to acheive in life, and while I am not someone who is drawn to get involved with lots of other people, I feel that maintaining deep long-term relationships is perhapse my most deep and vital ideal of all. If I never publish a book, that's alright. If I never build my castle in the forest, that's alright. Even if I had never married, that would have been alright (though of course not ideal). But I _cannot_ immagine life at all without deep affectionate life-long relationships with Kindred Spirits. Castles, forrests, fairy wings, beautifull gowns, all my idealistic fantasies could not make my life full and bright without someone to connect with on a very deep level, someone to share true love with (even if just as friends). Although I can spend a great deal of time alone quite happily, I believe this is only possible in the knowlege that there are some people who love me deeply and know my real inner self. 

I have a longstanding disappointment in regards to this ideal of love which makes it dificult to reconcile my inner self with reality. I hold a deep ideal of having a truely Life Long Best Friend. But when my best friend from kindergarten onward moved across the country in 6th grade and lost touch this ideal became forever lost to me. I cannot fully reconcile myself to this disappointment, though I have learned to deal with it. I suppose it makes me even more determined now to make the close relationships I have last until I die. Not just to my husband, but to several of my friends as well, I want to work hard to make these deep life-long -as much as I have left of it- relationships be reality, not just a dream. 

Sometimes I feel like a well of affection that is ready to lavish snuggles and gifts and kind words and encouragement and quality time and emotional support on any and everyone who passes within my reach. Yet I suppose in my extreem I-ness, or perhaps it has more to do with values, I also have a deep desire to not cast my love willy nilly, but to pour it into a few very special people with whom I can share a lasting and mutual connection, almost (though not quite) as if sharing it broadly would cheapen it. In any case, I do tend to be very cuddly and give out compliments quite liberally (to the point that I'm afraid that people think I don't really mean it). But I do genuinely appreciate things about othes and desire to encourage them whenever I can. I have found that I have to purposefully limit my interaction with others sometimes because I naturally take on the cares of others, and cannot not feel devotion to someone once they open up to me, but as one person I can hardly be there emotionally all the time for as many people as I might be inclined to take on. 

I think some other core values of NFs are closely related to how we see and communicate love. Being genuine is very important to us. Likewise knowing the true, genuine self of other people is also something we naturally seek. I think this leads us to have a yearning for very deep intimacy on an emotional, spiritual, intellectual level, even moreso than the physical. Strangely enough, while we are likely to idealise people and love, we also have this drive to make sure it's really real, to seek the real core of the person and be sure that all our communication is clear so we can be certain these aren't 'fake' emotions. So I don't know whether we are more, or less, likely to fall in love with an idea of who someone is rather than a real person. 

Another core value, as mentioned here, does seem to be mystical ideas or experiences. I think this leads NFs to idealise love particularly in the intuitive "love at first sight" "meant for eachother" "soul mate" kind of way. Personally I have always had a fascination for telepathy and constantly pictured the ideal romance involving some kind of spiritual interconnectedness between two people where they could actually be inside eahcother's mind, experiencing thoughts and feelings as one, with no need to use words to communicate. That was always the ultimate romantic relationship in my daydreams. I would venture to guess that this wouldn't be the ideal sort of connection yearned for by other types. 

And of course there is also our value, and natural ability for empathy. This ability to connect with other's emotions and experience them as our own, is a very strong motivation for acts of love and kindness toward others. It often feels like much less of a choice, and much more a matter of course that, feeling someone's pain in yourself, you must act to relieve it. You can't ignore or not notice it. The more fine-tuned our ability to pick up on and understand the emotional experiences of others, the more we can understand them and their unique perspective, and I think this allows us a great deal of patience and ability to overlook or forgive faults because we can understand their reasoning or motivation. I suppose this isnt' just empathy, it's also intuition, but it takes not only recognising what they are feeling and why they do things, but being able to truely step into their shoes, that allows us to be as forgiving of other's faults as we would be with our own (if not even more so). 

Furthermore, I think these three traits are important factors in the ability to have 'unconditional' love for others. First of all, the tendancy to think of people in terms of souls or spirits I think relates nicely to the idea of a true, real self on the inside which is somewhat separate from the outer self which may not always reflect or be in tune with the real genuine person. Thinking of people in these kinds of terms, I beleive, makes it quite natural to be able to love and accept a person - their spirit, essence, intentions - separately from their actions, words, and outer appearance - thus enableing, or even inclining, us to love people in an unshakable, unearned, unconditional way because it is not based on our interactions with them necessarily, but more on our core value of the authentic self. We seek to see that real self in others, and love them for what may be more our concept of their ideal self -their most genuine true self- which in some sense exists as something separate from their everyday interactions with us. If we tend to see ourselves as this true-ideal self and then this other part of ourself which is striving to live in accordance with that true self, it seems only natural to look more at that 'true-ideal' self in others (which consists of values, feelings, intentions) because we see that as being more true/important than the sometimes failed attempts at living out that true self. 

I see these as natural advantages towards being loving people, however, this does not garuntee that we are loving. Anyone from any type can be immature and selfish, even hatefull. I think perhaps because of the natural tendancies of NFs to desire romance, love, and ideal relationships, when they are emotionally unhealthy they can be very toxic people indeed, seeking relationships, pehaps having the natural ability to appear loving and trustworthy, while at the same time being very equipped to manipulate and emotionally betray those they form relationships with. An important note I think, though, is that even the seriously messed up NF probably still wants deep down to be loving and to have good relationships, regardless of how much he may botch his relationships in reality. I think our natural abilities and values can equip us to be extraordinarily loving, but at the same time could possibly equip us to be very harmfull. 

I don't think any type is less capable of feeling deep true love, and each has their own way of communicating and appreciating love. I think perhaps that different types might define love, and describe their experience of it a little differently, but that doesn't mean they love less authentically or deeply. 

I definately think that it is often hard for people of different types, or different 'love languages' to see and understand when someone is communicating love to them in a way that is different from their own, and therefore they may experience that person as not being loving towards them, in spite of that person's efforts to communicate love. 

I believe SJs are capable of being some of the most devoted in their love. From my limited experience, I think they are more likely to show their love by serving others, by sacrificing their own desires for the sake of the ones they love, by offering practical support and guidance, and by their commitment itself. I think they show love by sticking by someone though thick and thin. I think their love runs very fierce and deep, but is often overlooked and taken for granted. As they may give off the air of 'I'm just fullfilling my duty as a decent person' people may miss just how much of their action is motivated by love. I see them as most likely to say something like "love is commitment." or perhaps "love is loyalty." 

As mentioned in the video, I do think SPs are likely to say "love is fun". My husband is an SP and the most notable ways he shows his love is through cuddling and making me laugh - whether it's tickle fights or silly faces and antics. I think he also craves in a lover, someone who he can share experiences with. It's that quality time of doing things together that makes him feel really connected. He's also very affectionate, constatly reaching to touch me, constantly cuddling and canoodling and being lovey-dovey. 

I think NTs signs of love often go unnoticed or are misunderstood completely. I believe they do have very deep feelings, but have trouble communicating those feelings in ways that others would readily recognise. Strangely enough I think that when they feel comfortable with someone they can become more frank and even criticle because they don't have to keep up a show to please anyone or worry too much about stepping on someone's toes. They may pick on someone they care about freely - but stick around. Which is the key. They may sound like they think you're dumb and annoying, but if they didn't love you they wouldn't be wasting their time on you (that's just not logical). They may take on the air of putting up with you alll the time, but there is a kind of satisfaction and pride in you lurking under the criticle exterior. It's like they kind of operate on an assumed understanding that they care, without expecting the words to be spoken or the romantic gestures made - just being there is proof enough. I agree that they like to solve problems for those they care about. I think they also allow themselves to be more vulnerable by discussing things and sharing their ideas. I think often debate is a favorite form of connecting with someone, so to others it may appear that they are looking for conflict. I think they are attracted by a shared intellectual spark and eagerness to discuss things. I'm not really sure what short phrase they might use to sum up love, but I think perhaps it might be "love is respect" because I think they value competance. So, being seen as capable and well informed, being trusted and having their ideas valued I think is very important. Note the interesting contradiction that they may appear more openly criticle because they love and respect you. But I think among themselves they understand this perfectly and don't sense any contradiction. (Please speak up anyone if my ideas about your type is wrong, I'm just speculating and pulling up random memories). 

I think NFs could say "love is connection"


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## chaeriean (Jan 18, 2011)

@Aelthwyn all of what you said is true, and you know what? it would be _awesome_ if that is what these videos _actually said_. if this video said, _nfs value love as their core value over every other value_ you know what? that would have been fine. it would have been great, you could have had a party with little streamers and pie, and coffee because everybody needs pie and coffee at the same time in a party... but that isn't what he said. it's a bit difficult, like @quietly said, to misjudge a video that says, _quote-unquote_, "oh yeah, really? _SJs_ love more than NFs?!!!! HAAAAAAAAAA!" you know what i mean? it isn't that anyone here thinks that nfs don't value love the most. it's the fact that _all of his statements are exclusionary_. "NFs love MORE than other types", "NFs value love MORE than other types", etc etc.


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## thedavidhooker (Jan 24, 2011)

chaeriean said:


> @Aelthwyn all of what you said is true, and you know what? it would be _awesome_ if that is what these videos _actually said_. if this video said, _nfs value love as their core value over every other value_ you know what? that would have been fine. it would have been great, you could have had a party with little streamers and pie, and coffee because everybody needs pie and coffee at the same time in a party... but that isn't what he said. it's a bit difficult, like @quietly said, to misjudge a video that says, _quote-unquote_, "oh yeah, really? _SJs_ love more than NFs?!!!! HAAAAAAAAAA!" you know what i mean? it isn't that anyone here thinks that nfs don't value love the most. it's the fact that _all of his statements are exclusionary_. "NFs love MORE than other types", "NFs value love MORE than other types", etc etc.







I hope you'll enjoy this one at least! Also, we give a shout out to you & Aelthwyn in another video as well. Granted, this probably doesn't make up for our misunderstanding but that doesn't mean I don't love you! <3

Happy Valentine's Day!

Dave


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## chaeriean (Jan 18, 2011)

fml you keep doing that XD


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## Michail (Jan 28, 2011)

> Now what in the holy fuck is this?


your replies always make me laugh for some reason.

to be honest i agree with the videos but I also do agree with @Aelthwyn and @chaeriean. The love we have is no better than the love anybody else has, we just value love more than _we_ value other things. That doesn't mean an SP or an SJ or an NT can't value love more than they value other things, but as a type, I would say an SJ would value consistency and loyalty and dedication more than they would value the spirit of love, an NT would value competency and intelligence and honesty more than they would value the spirit of love, etc, in the terms of _stereotypes_. But of course I think what @chaeriean means is that saying we value love more than other types value love, _devalues_ their love and I think that's wrong. 

But then again I am an NF and I know the horrors of self-expression so I doubt you meant anything by it. But I do know @chaeriean personally and I do know NTs personally as well and I can say that wording is everything. Funnily enough even to an NF wording can be everything, so when you say things like that people take them as you say them. Part of communication is speaking, but the other part is how people perceive it. So if they perceive it the wrong way, it is your responsibility to like, correct them and tell them waht you meant. I can see where @quietly and @chaeriean thought you were "bad" or whatever because a few of your replies in turn were like "but ... we do value it more!" etc, like you couldn't see what they meant. 

I think you just have this idea of what "love" is in your head, that you can't attribute to any other type, because it's true: *EVERY OTHER TYPE DOESN'T LOVE LIKE WE LOVE*. But that doesn't mean they don't love as much, or they can't value it like we value it. Cause they love just as much as we love, they just don't do it so blatantly I think, they do it very differently, and when you can't recognize that it must be like "oh well gee..." lol.

"No NF is working twelve hour days" .... so true


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## Buttonsvalenti (Mar 1, 2011)

SOMEONE UNDERSTAND, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!!!!!!! SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS, YIPPEE! OH HAPPY, JOYOUS DAY!!!! *Runs through a meadow of flowers, jumps in the air, does a heel click, hits the ground and cartwheels, spins in dizzying circles, then takes off into the valley. 5 minutes later, you can still hear the faint, gleeful refrain of "Someone understands!" echoing o'er distant yonder. And a rainbow appears.*


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

chaeriean said:


> because love is not an idealistic notion. everyone values, cherishes and seeks love as well as they can. it's not a competition, no one does it "the best". i consider my wife to be my soulmate, and i am the farthest away from an idealist that a person probably could be.


chaeriean..I understand what your getting at nobody is disrespecting your ideals relationship or love. Of course it is very impotent to you. I think the emphasis on the way the NF's pedestal it so much. More than other types. I know this since I nearly married an ISFP been long term with an ESFJ and ISTP.

They did it in a very different way to me. Every body seeks love and everybody need it and every body feels it. The difference is NF idealise and perfect it, dissect it and discuss to an unbelievable extent. I would never rule out a relationship with an SJ because they have qulities I love and can love and so if I fall for one Im good with SJ loving. Even had fling with an NT once they love too.

Its not that NF love is better its that our approach is different. Its such a massive part of being NF basically my love and priority that we want to discuss it. Like everything else N face we want dissect it and theorise it. 

I feel like a massive fuzzy ball of love even when Im not in love and then the thought of being in live makes me feel all silly and like Im 5...all the flipping time! In write poems and have big long day dreams about it and I crush and makes up romances in my head to fill the time on the bus home. Im don't think SJ's do this


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm an nt (very t) and I can identify with a lot of that.


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## shasha001 (Oct 19, 2010)

According to keirsey: all NF share the following values : being/enthusiastic, trusting/intuition,yearning/romance, seeking/identity,prizing/ recognition, aspiring/sage. We also base our self image on being seen as empathic, benevolent and authentic. All types can love I totally get what you mean, idealists are just the incurable romantics (;


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

thedavidhooker said:


>


"I believe NFs understand love the best"

Or is it that one would delude themselves to believe that? 
And I'm not saying that all NFs are guilty of it, everyone is guilty of deluding themselves.


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

^ Oh @Fizz you have just managed to sum all of my frustration with non NF types in one sentance. No were not deluded and Im not deluded and everybody thinks we are but deluded. Im fair and down to earth person and I truly do belive that to be true. I think the stament should be NF's find it the easiest to love, are more tuned into love, are the ost in love with love. BUT yo have to apreciate that focusing that much attention on love wich we are natraly more inclined to do, doese lead to a greater understanding.

In just the same way as paying a lot of attention to Math, sports or any sort of subject or skill. I find it hard that NF's will genraly accept what they are good at and give credit to other types for what they are better at, and yet know one wants to acknowlage that NF's are a bunch of sappy love puppy dogs and our special talent is for loving and all things fuzzy and lovely . Its so unfair, it makes me sad and face palm when know understands love the same way that I do. Its got to e one of the biggest frustrations of my life.

Those two guys know what they are doing, they kind of know how crazy they sound they are rolling arobd in their NFness. NF do that when they get toghter they are awear of how crazy it to out siders. XD


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

sea cucumber said:


> ^ Oh @Fizz you have just managed to sum all of my frustration with non NF types in one sentance. No were not deluded and Im not deluded and everybody thinks we are but deluded. Im fair and down to earth person and I truly do belive that to be true. I think the stament should be NF's find it the easiest to love, are more tuned into love, are the ost in love with love. BUT yo have to apreciate that focusing that much attention on love wich we are natraly more inclined to do, doese lead to a greater understanding.
> 
> In just the same way as paying a lot of attention to Math, sports or any sort of subject or skill. I find it hard that NF's will genraly accept what they are good at and give credit to other types for what they are better at, and yet know one wants to acknowlage that NF's are a bunch of sappy love puppy dogs and our special talent is for loving and all things fuzzy and lovely . Its so unfair, it makes me sad and face palm when know understands love the same way that I do. Its got to e one of the biggest frustrations of my life.
> 
> Those two guys know what they are doing, they kind of know how crazy they sound they are rolling arobd in their NFness. NF do that when they get toghter they are awear of how crazy it to out siders. XD


OK. This is what I said:



Fizz said:


> Or is it that *one* would delude themselves to believe that?
> And I'm not saying that all NFs are guilty of it, everyone is guilty of deluding themselves.


I said "one", I didn't say NFs. I'm speaking directly to the poster of the video and generally to anyone that holds the bias that they "love" more than others.


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh I know. I think its down to definiton, I think on the whole NF's crush, and fall in love more often than other types, so therfor they do love often more than others. I understand what is meant by their love is not of more value, other wise I wouldnt have relationships with other types because I wouln't feel loved back enogh and I do. What I meant was no one gives the NF's any credit for being very love orinated and having a very good grasp of understading on it. May be you think Im bias, this is frstrating but I dont mind ts just that you dont understand and very few people do. 

the OP is very funny its very tonge in cheek I think a lot of people are not getting that. I think they know how crazy and deluded they sond bt they dodnt give a shit, hay I get it but I think lots of people don't get the joke element of it.

Thats all Fizz I still have some of my fuzzy love you for what ever yo think Im NF thts what we do


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

sea cucumber said:


> Oh I know. *I think its down to definiton, I think on the whole NF's crush, and fall in love more often than other types, so therfor they do love often more than others. I understand what is meant by their love is not of more value,* other wise I wouldnt have relationships with other types because I wouln't feel loved back enogh and I do. What I meant was no one gives the NF's any credit for being very love orinated and having a very good grasp of understading on it. May be you think Im bias, this is frstrating but I dont mind ts just that you dont understand and very few people do.
> 
> the OP is very funny its very tonge in cheek I think a lot of people are not getting that. I think they know how crazy and deluded they sond bt they dodnt give a shit, hay I get it but I think lots of people don't get the joke element of it.
> 
> Thats all Fizz I still have some of my fuzzy love you for what ever yo think Im NF thts what we do


For me, I would rather forge love with my partner rather than falling madly in-love at first sight. I want to know the person and understand more about them. I think love can cloud judgment and I would like to be aware if my SO is genuine or harbors ulterior motives. It doesn't mean that I can't share platonic love, that's the most common form of love I have. 

I place a lot of value on respect, that's one way for someone to garner my love. I'm not just going to throw my pearls before swine, so to speak. It doesn't mean I hate everyone else, it just means that I need to know them before I can trust/respect them enough.


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## chaeriean (Jan 18, 2011)

> What I meant was no one gives the NF's any credit for being very love orinated and having a very good grasp of understading on it.


i've never said that nfs are not love oriented. i've never even said that nfs don't value love _over other values that *they* have_. i said that you can't make exclusionary statements like that. it's like saying "all nts are more intelligent than other types." or "all sjs are judgmental, moreso than any other type". 



> I find it hard that NF's will genraly accept what they are good at and give credit to other types for what they are better at, and yet know one wants to acknowlage that NF's are a bunch of sappy love puppy dogs and our special talent is for loving and all things fuzzy and lovely


the issue with this lies in the entire grasp concept of your statement, that all types are _better at_ different _tasks_. no type is better than *any other type at any kind of task*. type is a mindset. you can't say "all sjs are great at math" or "all sps are great at surfing" it doesn't work, it's complete crap. and when you add emotions into it it clearly shows you don't understand mbti _in the slightest_. you guys also don't seem to understand the concept that different people _show their love in different ways_. you're saying that because some people don't write poetry or declare their love from a rooftop that their love is _less valid than yours_. it's complete bullshit. you can't condescend and undermine people like that, and it makes me very sad for you (and for the ops in general) that you think like that because it closes you off to so many different kinds of people - it's a closed viewpoint. and for being an nf, who's so concerned with "openness and peace and love and blablabla" it's not a very fucking accepting point of view.



> I feel like a massive fuzzy ball of love even when Im not in love and then the thought of being in live makes me feel all silly and like Im 5...all the flipping time! In write poems and have big long day dreams about it and I crush and makes up romances in my head to fill the time on the bus home. Im don't think SJ's do this


also, i'd hate to rain on your parade, but believe me - you're wrong. i don't crush and make-up romances in my head and fantasize, no, because the real thing is much better and i focus on that. i can't even begin to continue this. it's completely unfounded and ridiculous.


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh dear you seem to have misintereprted what Iv said, focused on monor details that were clearly a bit of steriotype joke and missed clear points that prove I do not value the other types as less, or less of an emotion. I think your getting your knickers in a twist a bit, I think your being unfair. Raining on parade wll yes you are and your also proving my point I was trying to make. 

Yes thanks Im a grown up and I do experience real love and real relationships but when Im not Im crusing. Im in real love or fake love. There you go the point I was making was that the NF's more so are inclined to be that way. We are focuse oursleves on being in love real or fantasy its a permant state. If your like all the time you get to know it the highs the lows. 

You and @Fizz have both made the point that you are less focused on crushing and are either in our out of love (the real thing). I was interesting in seeing how this difrence and the simalirites, because I have loving realitships SJ's and SP's so I what to see from their perspective. I can realte a lot to what Fizz replied with. 
Im not now, because you can't discuss it with out you calling me typist and being defensive when you dont need to be.


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## chaeriean (Jan 18, 2011)

> You and @Fizz have both made the point that you are less focused on crushing and are either in our out of love (the real thing). I was interesting in seeing how this difrence and the simalirites, because I have loving realitships SJ's and SP's so I what to see from their perspective. I can realte a lot to what Fizz replied with.
> Im not now, because you can't discuss it with out you calling me typist and being defensive when you dont need to be.


i haven't called anyone typist because i don't see typist behavior here, i see ignorance and i am trying to correct it. you are failing to grasp any of the points i am making and you are accusing me of focusing on details as if that is a negative, somehow unfounded thing. why yes, when you speak, you use details. i take those details and i look at them and then i formulate a picture as to what you are saying, that is how verbal communication tends to work. you also seem to differentiate between "the real thing love" and "crushing random romance". you seem to believe these guys are talking about romanticism, they're not. they're talking about "the real thing". they're talking about real love and they're saying that nfs value that more than other types value it. i have never said that nfs do not value it, i have never said that nfs do not have it as the highest of _their_ values.

thedavehooker highlights it perfectly in this response:



> That's true, but when I say love is an NF value, I mean that its more of a romantic love; a love that transcends effort or ideals. For an SJ, yes, providing for a partner _is your way of expressing love; which is a very pragmatic love and is wonderful in every way as any other kind of love. For the NF, however, *love is how we express our love*._


the differentiation between "sj love" and "nf love", do you see it? let me point it out to you. sjs "express love by doing things, pragmatic and ~*~*just as awesome~*~*" versus "oh, but nfs just love. that's how we love. we love." do you not see this here? it's ridiculous. doing things is doing things. _LOVING IS LOVING_. end of story.

it seems like you are focusing on random, irrelevant pieces of information to formulate a picture that is incorrect. oh, sorry, did i just do that? hm.

by the way, because people seem to be assuming i am just here to defend my own type - i'm not. i'm not doing this on behalf of sjs everywhere. for god's sake, stop telling me i'm offended personally by this because i'm an sj. i'm offended personally by it because i'm a human being who loves probably more deeply than you could possibly fathom. every person who's come to this board and who has found this to be ridiculous finds it to be ridiculous because they know their own capabilities and they know how false you are being. why? because they are individuals. you cannot make statements relating to emotions or relating to tasks about entire types because an entire type is made up of a population of several million _individuals_ and do you know what is the most individual thing of all? _emotion_. there is no justifiable way you can tell someone that they value love less than you _BECAUSE OF FOUR LETTERS OF MYERS-BRIGGS_.

i use sjs in my examples because _he uses them in his examples_ and i worked from that. i imagine he used sjs in his examples because i was the antagonist here. but anything i am saying could apply to _any type_ and i am defending, here, _every type_ because i think it's a completely biased, arrogant, and ignorant style of thinking and i think these people aren't even aware of how their words come across. other people could find those videos and take what they say at face value not knowing about the mbti aside from their own four letters.


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

I dont think Im ingnorant and Im a bit offended. Ignorance isnt for you to correct even if I was. I dont try to correct it, its my job im not the ingnorace police all I ever want to do is put my point across and try my best not to be ignorant myslef. 

I dont see your foucs on deatils as negative I just dont understand it. They seem to be irrelevent to me. I saw the video discussion for what it was. One of those many silly NF chats. Thats how we talk, we talk in absoulutes grand OTT misuse of words even though its not what we mean. Its hard to explain, but the details of whats being said are not actualy demonstating the point they making. Thats why they are getting very misunderstood. The point thay are making can't be put it into words very well, I would struggle so you just get a bit radom and misuse langauge slightly only ever hinting at whats meant, beacuse the actual words become lost as details. Details seem irrelevent so the use of langauge is slack and porrly demostrates the point.
You would be suprised at some of the things are that said by NF and maybe NT that are not actulay meant or very conected to the reality of the langauge they use. Iv played back conversations befor and others people dont get what we are on about but we do.

I think we have both perfectly demostarted the point on how we use langauge and facts to formulate what we see. Its totaly diffrent. Please refain from saying Im wrong its best to agree to disagree. There are no hard facts to support either of our points of view. I guess I thought I had out lined what I thought of what was said in the OP befor but I guess I didn't do it very well. I dont think your point of veiw is wrong its very valid and important.

However I disagree with your need to be defensive your not being attacked. Policing and correcting things and telling people they are ingnorent is not needed. Just discuss what you have to say. Sorry but If I feel unfaily judged as I did, I will react mostly I forgot that your way is diffrent to my and not wronge so I failed to see why you see the details as so important. Please be mind full not to do the same thing. There is more than one way to comunicate its just that yours and mine are diffrent and neither is wrong. Please also on that point apriciate that the guys in the vid are comunicating to each other in a diffrent way and be open to the posibility that you have misintrpreted it.

Say what you have to say by all means interesting please don't judge me as ignorent.


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## chaeriean (Jan 18, 2011)

> I dont think Im ingnorant and Im a bit offended. Ignorance isnt for you to correct even if I was. I dont try to correct it, its my job im not the ingnorace police all I ever want to do is put my point across and try my best not to be ignorant myslef.


once again, i haven't called you ignorant because i wasn't actually talking to you or about you. making this about yourself once again is not a flattering trait. 



> However I disagree with your need to be defensive your not being attacked. Policing and correcting things and telling people they are ingnorent is not needed. Just discuss what you have to say.


i am discussing what i have to say, and my discussion is highlighting my opinion that the ops are demonstrating ignorance. see it for what you want, but saying things like this:



> Details seem irrelevent so the use of langauge is slack and porrly demostrates the point.


to try and back up your point is completely irrelevant because we _do_ use language. i have clearly stated what part of his language i had a problem with and he insisted that was _exactly what he meant_. therefore i am forced to conclude there is no language barrier here. my issue is _with_ the language, but the language itself _he did not use wrongly_, nor did i misinterpret it. please stop monopolizing my points and transfering them onto yourself. i am not talking about you because you did not make the video.



> You would be suprised at some of the things are that said by NF and maybe NT that are not actulay meant or very conected to the reality of the langauge they use.


maybe so, but once again, when someone highlights to you a specific thing that you have stated and you continue to insist that is precisely what you meant and continue defending that point, there is no language barrier, there is no communication barrier, it is simply what it is. i am not so stupid that i cannot understand it when intuitives talk, neither am i so stupid that i could not possibly understand the nuances of language. highlighting in your post that i focus on the details which is "typical" is not a very flattering way to present your argument, either, because i know perfectly well what i focus on and i have highlighted my thought process, my focus, my concern, for each step of the way and each step was met with the insistance that he was correct, his initial point was correct, he has made further and further statements about that point, he has made multiple videos about it. it is not a _language issue_, it is not a _type issue_, it is not _me misunderstanding_, it is not him _failing to use language_. it is _what it is_. deal with it.



> I dont see your foucs on deatils as negative I just dont understand it. They seem to be irrelevent to me.


maybe if you actually _read my posts_ without the instinctive need to feel offended by everything i say because i disagree with nfs, you would understand my concerns.


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

chaeriean said:


> thedavehooker highlights it perfectly in this response:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

sea cucumber said:


> I dont see your foucs on deatils as negative I just dont understand it. They seem to be irrelevent to me. I saw the video discussion for what it was. One of those many silly NF chats. Thats how we talk, we talk in absoulutes grand OTT misuse of words even though its not what we mean. Its hard to explain, but the details of whats being said are not actualy demonstating the point they making. Thats why they are getting very misunderstood. The point thay are making can't be put it into words very well, I would struggle so you just get a bit radom and misuse langauge slightly only ever hinting at whats meant, beacuse the actual words become lost as details. Details seem irrelevent so the use of langauge is slack and porrly demostrates the point.


So you're basically telling us that "NFs" completely make up everything they say on the spot and don't actually use any backing or credible information? Then non-NFs are supposed to understand this and take your words with a grain of salt? 

These are not my words if any moderators are reading, that's her words. I'm just trying to get her to _clarify_.


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## chaeriean (Jan 18, 2011)

> How am I being false?? Im not. I saw that statment diffrently. I saw it as I have experienced it. I show my love by doing nothing more than being a love sick pup. I cuddle, I sing I dance for them I say it all the time, I do all sorts of silly random love sick shit. Anything else I do with them such as cook is just as spin off from my own needs and because humans need food and I dont want my loved one to die. Of corse I take care of support, nurture and give advise to my lovers but thats standard in plutonic love to. So the diffrence between a lover and a friend cant be worded any other way then I just 'love' them more.


*ONCE AGAIN, NOT ABOUT YOU*. and furthermore, your statement to back that up once again is just saying that you express love the way that you express love. you even admit that you don't express love any better or worse than anybody else, so i don't see how you even _disagree_ with me, you just seem to be mad that i'm disagreeing with an nf.



> Say love can be turned in to money so each have £100 if you give as much as you take your relationship is the real deal its the soal mate. each £100 is the same value the same depth the same emotion.
> So
> NF = £25 worth doing the love and £75 of just love
> SP= £60 doing the love £40 of just love


the whole idea that there is a separation between "doing _the love_" and "_just love_" is what i find to be irrational. they are both _love_. what is _just love_. kissing? hugging? daydreaming? but those are _still actions_. you can _do_ a hell of a lot, but there isn't a hell of a lot that you can _feel_ that feels the same as love.



> My thought are if the non NF types are offened they will all just think the two guys are idiots. Not every body is going to like it, or get it.


i do get it completely and i don't think they're idiots, in fact i told them that on this board. don't put words in "all of our" mouths, please. i've commented on another one of his videos without relating it to this video at all. he has some funny things in a couple of them, i don't think he's an idiot and i don't think he's mean and i don't think he is doing this _intentionally_ - i think he just doesn't _get it_ and i was trying to allow him to see my point of view, and he refused to see it and missed the point completely.



> I hope you dont take offence but the SJ im close to my best friend and my mum. Will say and show love in the conventional ways but I have to say what is most out standing feature of the depth of their love is the lovel of caring and catering for my needs. They are always there for me, to listen to comfort thier practical help is amazing,conssistant they do that because they love me. I can compare that to how Iv seen my best freind an NT 'love' when she is in love and that of NF relatonships and friendships with NF's. It does have patteren to it in the bigger picture of people. On a small scale each individual will of course have their own way of loving unique to them sleves which transcends MBTI.


i don't see how this is offensive in the slightest, but you have basically worded, in a completely different way, the exact same thing i am trying to convey to you. maybe if you re-read this statement over and over again you will be able to understand my points.


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

Fizz said:


> So you're basically telling us that "NFs" completely make up everything they say on the spot and don't actually use any backing or credible information? Then non-NFs are supposed to understand this and take your words with a grain of salt?
> 
> These are not my words if any moderators are reading, that's her words. I'm just trying to get her to _clarify_.


No thats not what I mean and I apologise im not very good at explaining stuff.
I struggle with language two fold Im both dyslexic and a vey high Ne and Ni scorer.

Im kind of do my best I try my best not to put words in mouths., that not my intention at all.
Please appreciate I am vey dyslexic I dont write well I dont use language well.
Im also having real trouble explaining to you what I mean by this doing love and love love. I simply cannot not put my thoughts on this into a worded discussion. It will just come out wrong. I see at very abstract and complicated. Im neither factual nor skilled with language enough to convey my point

Your asking me to explain my thoughts of love what that pretty much blows my brain, Im more likely to do a picture or a dance to explain my thoughts. Other than that I have written a long report on it for university.

I did a physiology first year degree with Open University an I studied the subject of love. It was very very long!!! 

I feel like I speak to a different language to you and I use that language badly, due to being dyslexic
Youre never ever going to understand what I mean. So Im going to have to give up the discussion. 


To me what has happend here with our posts and disagreement demonstrates perfectly the communication divide that I belive exists between S an N types. Not always but at times it appears like a chasm. The differing ways of processing information can lead to massive misunderstandings.

First up will try an explain how I communicate receive and use information.
Before I discovered MBTi and cognitive tests I just used think no body understood me. I was constantly misinterpreted and misunderstood. Every so often I would meet someone and we just seemed to click, they get me and we would talk for hours. I wasnt misunderstood and the communication was easy. I see now and now that those friends have done tests they are Ns to. For the most part I communicate well and just fine with S types they are my family partners and best friends BUT when things become deep and the expression of thoughts and feelings become very involved I struggle and it takes a little more effort.

For me I take in information in big chunks, everything at once, my brain feels constantly bombarded and overloaded with data, feelings and thoughts. To me everything is the world is connected and everything can be routed to a familiar pattern theory and framework. Taking in so much information and processing it using a deeply complex framework means the finer details are lost of looked over and the facts often deemed irrelevant.

Often missing and overlooking facts loses me debates and 

Im going for the big picture, the abstract underlining theory. The complex nature of filtering information and having to deal with information on a large chunky scale, plus the natural inclination to strive for the big picture, the grandiose means that it can be very hard to put into words. Words and language I have noticed from experience from playing back conversation are misused to a point where it would seem to an out sider we are not conveying the point we wanted to communicate but to each other we are. And Im perfectly understood.
I think the use of language can either go two ways, when it needs to be, it can be flowing and quite beautiful, the poetic nature of language and its logical framework is appealing for many people. I see it working well when Ns teach are performing or doing any sort of presentation. On an informal chatty level as in the video I often see it a poorly used, I use a lot of non verbal cues the details of what is being said is less important to the idea that is being communicated.

Yes we do use hard solid facts to form or ideas an opinions but they are often mixed in with the less tangible imagined, theories and random thoughts that just pop in my head. 

You will see on the video that Dave the INFJ is constantly looking away and then rolling his eyes upward as if looking into his head, my educated guess is that he literally searching for the words he needs to express him, I do this. I also talk in the same Uhh and ummm staggered manner when on he spot. I have a lot off differently lines of thought on the subject at hand and have to pick the one thats most easily pt into words. My brain is abstract but the use of language is concrete and absolute, they conflict at times.


To others the conversations are viewed as random often over animated, overstated and crazy overly opinioted and jest plain weird. For me and the other N type chattering away in the corner its fun, interesting and on a wild journey. 

Im often asked what the hell are you to chattering on about now'

It just as easy for me to misinterpret you as you misinterpret me. Youre working in an entirely different way. I would think more methodical, fact-by-fact chuck by chunk clearly neatly processed and placed in a fast collection of data, correlated and efficiently measured and analyzed against your ethics, beliefs and past experiences. Its here and now, concentrating and focused like a laser beam at the piont in hand and skilfully retrieving the details and correctly detailed language to convey what you want. Or thats my guess anyway

So all Im saying is please be aware and open to the fact as I am that sometimes there is a bit of an S and N communication divide and leads to misunderstandings.

If you don&t like the OP thats fine, sorry Im un able to provide with a decent discussion guys


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## Jwing24 (Aug 2, 2010)

Whoooooaaaaaa dudezzzz


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

Jwing24 said:


> Whoooooaaaaaa dudezzzz


I would help in abridging this for you as it's a severe outbreak of TL;DR...but it's more work than it's worth.


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## Jwing24 (Aug 2, 2010)

It's okay you don't have to, I just wanted to say that. ^_^


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## INFJoshua (May 16, 2012)

:sad: i can't make it to the end of this thread!! to much anger and tension!! i'm outa here:shocked:


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