# Do Men Reward Bad Behavior in Women?



## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Another thread began discussing how women "reward" men who treat them in ways which are less ideal and ignoring men who would treat them better. 

I would like to explore the ways in which men often give women favorable treatment when perhaps they shouldn't and how they also overlook or ignore qualities in other women which conventional wisdom would suggest that they should embrace.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Look at all the "women are crazy" tropes. Men give women a free pass to be passive-aggressive and emotionally volatile, and sometimes even emotionally abusive, because they're women. And they use the fact that they're women as an excuse.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Do men ignore women who don't behave this way? (specifically because they don't act this way?)


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

marked174 said:


> Do men ignore women who don't behave this way? (specifically because they don't act this way?)


I'd argue to an extent. Men sometimes tend to ignore the more masculine-presenting girls that don't buy into hyperfeminine stereotypes because they act more like "one of the guys" than girlfriend potential.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

marked174 said:


> Do men ignore women who don't behave this way? (specifically because they don't act this way?)


First you have to find a woman who doesn't act this way ....on a serious note it depends on the man. Some men like bad girls, just like some women like bad boys. The badder the better ? I think it's all a matter of taste and desire, some men like bitchy women, mine does, loL


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

marked174 said:


> Do men ignore women who don't behave this way? (specifically because they don't act this way?)


I don't know. But it sure feels like it sometimes. 

I prefer to have someone call me on my bullshit to be honest. But for the most part, men don't like to be called on stuff. It's a no win it feels like. If you call them out on things, they either do the min of whatever they need to do to keep things copacetic - or they pass. But authentic resolution I think is rare or rather, an indication they want a friendship. Which u kinda need a foundation of friendship to be anything more than that IMO. Anyways. Men seem to be interested in women who are not challenging (from my experience). Once the relationship gets challenging, is when they evaluate their feelings authentically. And to be fair, in their own way, women do the same. Women ignore guys that don't pull bullshit as often as they perceive it as interest. (He likes me. He's interested.) but this is why it's easily to manipulate them (both men And women). 

I think both sexes distribute their fair share of jaded retarded bullshit. I think both parties eventually outgrow the need and finally look to the opposite sex as parties of their own, as opposed to emotional tampons or sex kittens. That is when relationships happen. First , I think both parties evaluate each other to see if they can handle even being friends. (Sometimes albeit while dating but nonetheless). It's like. People afraid of abandonment or being independent emotionally (both men and women could fit this bill). Or they're afraid of being vulnerable and again, no sex in particular could or could not be this. And then there are those ready, willing & wanting. So really, it's all about running in circles a bit (having sub par relationships with yourself through other people) before you REEEEALLY start enjoying the cognitive capacities of authentic relationship (that particular type above friendship of course). 

I think both men and women tolerate what they think they deserve.
And sometimes, it's a matter of just forcing yourself through the uncomfortable in order to experience the point. 

I really don't think that tolerating shitty behavior is sex nor type related. I do however think maybe how we problem solve these situations would hold more commonality than anything else.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Sai said:


> @_marked174_ there is a popular folk phrase said in my country that goes like this: Mujer que no jode y ladilla revisala entre las piernas. that in english translates something like this:
> 
> if you find a woman who doesnt piss you off or gets annoying once in a while, you better check her between the legs to see if she isnt a man.
> 
> Lesson of the story: all women are crazy and if they dont act that way they arent women xD


You're right, they're nuts. They probably shouldn't be allowed to drive or vote; think of all the crazy damage that could be done.

I'm going to work with the premise that women are equal to men, and should be treated as such (don't get too excited ladies, that means responsibility).

The argument that women are inherently inferior is sexist, and will take us nowhere prosperous; neither in thought or act.

(However, it is interesting to note how this attitude just kind of accepts negative behavior from women, proving @Torai's post that men give women a pass through sexism.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

I think this is just as true as the other thread was. I think both genders tend to give each-other a pass on certain "bad behaviors" just like it happens "intra-gender". How many times have we seen a "girl clique" in some movie suggesting that a woman should genitally mutilate her cheating boyfriend?


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

marked174 said:


> I'm going to work with the premise that women are equal to men, and should be treated as such (don't get too excited ladies, that means responsibility).


Difference between male feminist and white knight summed up in one sentence. :tongue:


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

Scelerat said:


> I think this is just as true as the other thread was. I think both genders tend to give each-other a pass on certain "bad behaviors" just like it happens "intra-gender". How many times have we seen a "girl clique" in some movie suggesting that a woman should genitally mutilate her cheating boyfriend?


Ya goes both ways. Its possible society's standards affect one more than the other, who knows.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Scelerat said:


> I think this is just as true as the other thread was. I think both genders tend to give each-other a pass on certain "bad behaviors" just like it happens "intra-gender". How many times have we seen a "girl clique" in some movie suggesting that a woman should genitally mutilate her cheating boyfriend?


How many times have you seen it? Can you give examples?


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Revenant said:


> Ya goes both ways. Its possible society's standards affect one more than the other, who knows.


I think most men learn fairly quickly that the best way to turn a woman off is to call her on all her shit. You need to let some things go to have suitable relationships with the opposite sex.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

marked174 said:


> How many times have you seen it? Can you give examples?


The "kick him in the balls" sentiment tends to be fairly common, Something to talk about, What happens in Vegas, Valentine's Day, All tied up and the best of them Oprah's interview with Lorena Bobbitt.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

*I invite you to consider the following* that I find related, a lot.

Very common photo about female models in the past











*VS*

Common pictures TODAY:










I work on a media company who owns a few magazines, some for women. Over the years the cover and fashion section has changed A LOT, moving from pictures looking nice, kind and lovely *into aggressive, mean (I'm not kidding), cold, defiant and rude*. It's pretty easy to come across women today in my country whose behavior appears confusing while flirting, sending signals as if they hated you, well some do send those signals because they don't like you but some do something very similar in the way of flirting. Back in my days you said hello and both tried to be nice, now is very common to see them acting in mean ways as if men should prove something right from the start.

Do Men Reward Bad Behavior in Women?There was a thread on another forum, very interesting with a lot of comments from both men and women, it was like "who will save us?" because it discussed massive mean and rude behavior but nobody was saying nothing, why? because you can call a man (in public) YOU ARE A DICK, you can tell a man YOU ARE STUPID, but when women act stupidly... many fear calling her stupid in public. Even women posted how difficult it is to deal with terrible attitudes (from other women) in public.

To me... stupid is stupid, regardless of gender. I-don't-pursue-mean-people regardless of how they look and for some people that means "I have something broken inside" because I should give special treatment to hotties. 

Yep there was another thread on that forum AND ANOTHER ONE HERE about treating people better by their looks, I remember it was very related to this.





Sai said:


> @_marked174_ there is a popular folk phrase said in my country that goes like this: Mujer que no jode y ladilla revisala entre las piernas. that in english translates something like this:
> 
> if you find a woman who doesnt piss you off or gets annoying once in a while, you better check her between the legs to see if she isnt a man.
> 
> Lesson of the story: all women are crazy and if they dont act that way they arent women xD


HA where are you from? in my country they same something similar: "Mujer queno chinga es hombre" / as "_A woman who doesn't piss you off or doesn't bother other people is a man_". 

It demands an effort from outsiders but at least in my country, it's widely accepted that women will be bitchy and you just have to deal with it because there is no way to fix it, and trying to fix it will get you into trouble.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

It's like this website has become one big FML posting. Just in case anyone was wondering, thinking about things that piss you off with no end doesn't make you neither introspective nor deep


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

android654 said:


> It's like this website has become one big FML posting. Just in case anyone was wondering, thinking about things that piss you off with no end doesn't make you neither introspective nor deep


I'm trying to learn something. Not really going for this to turn into a woman hating thread.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

Scelerat said:


> I think this is just as true as the other thread was. I think both genders tend to give each-other a pass on certain "bad behaviors" just like it happens "intra-gender". How many times have we seen a "girl clique" in some movie suggesting that a woman should genitally mutilate her cheating boyfriend?





> Today, I woke up to my girlfriend grinning at me, her hand on my junk. I grinned back, then looked down and saw blood smeared all over her hand and my junk. After I started screaming and crying, she laughed hysterically and said it was fake blood. She recorded everything. FML


FML: I woke up to my girlfriend grinning at me, her hand on my junk. I grinned back, then looked down
Check out the comments.

Case in point.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

So far, the general consensus is that men "put up" with bad behavior from women (usually accompanied with sexist assertions of female degeneracy). That's not what I'm looking for.

I want to know about some of the double standards men have regarding their treatment of women (favorably treating the unfavorable whilst simultaneously ignoring or despising the favorable).


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

marked174 said:


> I'm trying to learn something. Not really going for this to turn into a woman hating thread.


Well what are you trying to learn exactly?
Both genders give way too much rope to people that are emotionally unavailable, cheat, lie and hurt them.
We can nail down the technicalities all you want, but gender roles and "behaviors" are less rigid now. There's even more of a spectrum one can go through.

Edit:
Saying they want a strong woman, then picking up a girl that can barely fend for herself.
Saying they want intimacy and closeness, yet running far away from anyone that offers it to them. Goes for the unavailable woman that gives them the opposite of what they say they want.

to name a few.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Moop said:


> Well what are you trying to learn exactly?
> Both genders give way too much rope to people that are emotionally unavailable, cheat, lie and hurt them.
> We can nail down the technicalities all you want, but gender roles and "behaviors" are less rigid now. There's even more of a spectrum one can go through.
> 
> ...


Also, this was all covered in the other thread the OP made not too long ago. There's only so many ways you can say that people like what they like and compare that with what they can get and make compromises therein.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Moop said:


> Well what are you trying to learn exactly?
> Both genders give way too much rope to people that are emotionally unavailable, cheat, lie and hurt them.
> We can nail down the technicalities all you want, but gender roles and "behaviors" are less rigid now. There's even more of a spectrum one can go through.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to conduct a comparative analysis on mixed signals and cultural communication (specifically within a dating context). 

This comparative analysis should provide:

A. Similarities masked by stereotypes which suggest a mutual underlying impulse for behavior.

or

B. Differences which indicate exclusive underlying impulses for behavior.

After that I will most likely conduct a critical analysis upon the merits, costs, and benefits of my findings.


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

marked174 said:


> Another thread began discussing how women "reward" men who treat them in ways which are less ideal and ignoring men who would treat them better.
> 
> I would like to explore the ways in which men often give women favorable treatment when perhaps they shouldn't and how they also overlook or ignore qualities in other women which conventional wisdom would suggest that they should embrace.


Can you post the link to the other thread that discusses women liking men who treat them badly?


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

sereneone said:


> Can you post the link to the other thread that discusses women liking men who treat them badly?


Here it is:

http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/156621-power-women-have-feminists-afraid-admit.html


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

I think if men are putting up with women's bad behavior, it's because he's afraid he won't be able to get anyone better, and that goes back to sexual selection. (It is said) that men value sex more than women, which goes hand in hand with the idea that men are the pursuers of any kind of sexual or romantic relationship, and it's been discussed before on PerC that it's harder for men to get women than it is for women to get men...so I would think it's likely that men are more willing to keep around a woman who has bad behavior than it is for women to put up with bad behavior from a man. Women are definitely more likely to attempt to change his bad behavior once or twice but then if he doesn't comply, she'll be looking for someone else. It seems when men view bad behavior from their women, they become irritated and maybe distant but they aren't like to say, "Get out!" unless it's a serious offense like cheating or lying about something big.


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

marked174 said:


> Another thread began discussing how women "reward" men who treat them in ways which are less ideal and ignoring men who would treat them better.
> 
> I would like to explore the ways in which men often give women favorable treatment when perhaps they shouldn't and how they also overlook or ignore qualities in other women which conventional wisdom would suggest that they should embrace.


Well, thinking about an answer to this question makes me realize how cynical I have become. My general observation is that men don't understand the first thing about women emotionally or sexually and therefore don't even try to understand what might seem like strange behavior from women. Most men are attracted to women because of sexual chemistry or emotional chemistry, and they simply "put up" with all forms of behavior they don't understand in order to eventually get a reward for the things they like. It's that simple.

So, for example, if a woman acts-out in an emotional way, a typical man will simply not try to communicate, and eventually will even stop listening. And his thought process is that "eventually this mood will pass, and she will get back to giving me what I need." And what he needs is sex and pleasant emotions. Men are really that simple, sorry ladies. 

In reality, the secret that most men don't understand about women is that women simply solve problems in a different way. When a woman wants to talk about an issue, as a man you should just SHUT UP and LISTEN. Let her go on and on and on about seemingly unrelated things. It's okay. She is trying to piece it all together for herself and this is just the method of doing that. AFTER she has it ALL out on the table, THEN you can start to discuss it. If men would just do this, the woman would feel appreciated and feel like her man listens to her, and 90% of all relationship issues would just go away.

And, if you learn to do this, as a man you can distinguish between the women who are simply emotional and frustrated (which is okay and normal) from the ones who are manipulative and bat-ass crazy (which is not okay and should not be tolerated). The ones who are just emotional and frustrated will settle down once they see you listen and understand the points they make and give weight to them. They aren't trying to win every point. They are trying to be valued as your PARTNER in a RELATIONSHIP. The ones who are bat-ass crazy won't give on any point and will simply manipulate and act-out in totally unreasonable ways and don't have any interest in compromise.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

sereneone said:


> Well, thinking about an answer to this question makes me realize how cynical I have become. My general observation is that men don't understand the first thing about women emotionally or sexually and therefore don't even try to understand what might seem like strange behavior from women. Most men are attracted to women because of sexual chemistry or emotional chemistry, and they simply "put up" with all forms of behavior they don't understand in order to eventually get a reward for the things they like. It's that simple.
> 
> So, for example, if a woman acts-out in an emotional way, a typical man will simply not try to communicate, and eventually will even stop listening. And his thought process is that "eventually this mood will pass, and she will get back to giving me what I need." And what he needs is sex and pleasant emotions. Men are really that simple, sorry ladies.
> 
> ...


You know, nearly every piece of relationship advice I've seen is like that. Men should shut up and listen, and I understand that to an extent. Listening is a great thing to do in relationships, but where do things come in when men want to say something about how they feel?


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## purposive (Jun 4, 2013)

Wow. I definitely don't overlook my wife's bad behavior, she acts out and she gets called out on it. Simple. Just like I get called out when I misbehave. Women who act passive aggressive like what that poster provided with an image of dialogue on the first page get on my fucking nerves. You're obviously not "fine," when you've got a sourpuss look on your face with your arms crossed and body language that could rip my heart out.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Sai said:


> @marked174 there is a popular folk phrase said in my country that goes like this: Mujer que no jode y ladilla revisala entre las piernas. that in english translates something like this:
> 
> if you find a woman who doesnt piss you off or gets annoying once in a while, you better check her between the legs to see if she isnt a man.
> 
> Lesson of the story: all women are crazy and if they dont act that way they arent women xD


LMAO. Women are meant to be loved, not understood  XD....and yes, most women are bat shit crazy..hah


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

That image with those statements are pretty silly. I definitely hear these more from men than I say them myself, ha.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

marked174 said:


> I'm trying to conduct a comparative analysis on mixed signals and cultural communication (specifically within a dating context).
> 
> This comparative analysis should provide:
> 
> ...


Can you say that in laymen's terms instead?
I still think we are over-analyzing this.

Mutual = companionship, love, fear, sexual desires, for some people similar goals is big too (like let's build this giant money empire together)

Exclusive = more individual than gender-oriented, esp these days

It's really hard to peg something as WOMEN only or MEN only. Both genders are quite mixed. We have more in common than not in common.
However we may present those needs in different ways.

For example, a big mutual problem is a fear of being boring. Not interesting enough. Not _exciting_:
Men might cover it up by talking about how they can get any girl they want, all the notches on their bedpost, their prowess in the sack.
Women might cover it up by talking about how many guys WANT to be with her and love her, but they simply can't. Then continue stringing those guys along. Ever hear that trick clubs use? Keep a long line to attract more customers? Same deal.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Moop said:


> Can you say that in laymen's terms instead?
> I still think we are over-analyzing this.
> 
> Mutual = companionship, love, fear, sexual desires, for some people similar goals is big too (like let's build this giant money empire together)
> ...


If it's a problem both genders have, then it's mutual; but if it's only one-sided then something is up. So far, I really haven't seen any instances where men say they want one thing and act like they want another; like only women pull that crap. Honestly, it wasn't the result I was expecting.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

marked174 said:


> If it's a problem both genders have, then it's mutual; but if it's only one-sided then something is up. So far, I really haven't seen any instances where men say they want one thing and act like they want another; like only women pull that crap. Honestly, it wasn't the result I was expecting.


I've seen of instances of guys saying one thing and wanting another all the time. Are you a hetero man? Sometimes we can be biased to our own gender/roles (wrong word, but at lack of knowing a better one)
How many men say they want a woman to really love and be in a relationship with? That they are tired of the drama and games?
Yet...the minute that girl appears, they start disappearing and pulling all sorts of nonsense.

Classic scenario:
Guy: I like you
Girl: I like you too 
Guy: ...*vanish*

How is that not wanting one thing, but acting like you want another?
Granted this is more common in young, immature guys, however the so-called stereotypical "bad behavior" for girls is ALSO more typical in young, immature girls.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Moop said:


> I've seen of instances of guys saying one thing and wanting another all the time. Are you a hetero man? Sometimes we can be biased to our own gender/roles (wrong word, but at lack of knowing a better one)
> How many men say they want a woman to really love and be in a relationship with? That they are tired of the drama and games?
> Yet...the minute that girl appears, they start disappearing and pulling all sorts of nonsense.
> 
> ...


I definitely think there's a bias, which is why I ask for collaboration. For example, I am not at all familiar with the "vanishing act" scenario you described.


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

I wish I had a dime for every guy that vanished on me right after he supposedly told me/acted like he liked me.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

marked174 said:


> I definitely think there's a bias, which is why I ask for collaboration. For example, I am not at all familiar with the "vanishing act" scenario you described.


You're over-thinking this.
I hope that doesn't sound condescending. It just really feels that way.
Look up relationship advice. The "Girls ask guys" section.
There are so many stories like that.

Google
Here I picked out a few from the first page of Google
Jenn X: 30Something & Single • Reader
The Disappearing Act Dude: The D Stands for Douche : Planet Verge
Disappearing Reappearing Man: What To Do? | The Mirror of Aphrodite
When a man does a vanishing act | All Women Stalk

Check this out too:
Google

Search results for "Girls ask guys relationship advice"
http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=f2d940fb4c7c022b&q=girls+ask+guys+relationship+advice 

Men don't always say what they mean.
Scratch that.
PEOPLE don't always say what they mean.
Whether it is because they are intentionally deceiving you or that they don't even know what they mean in the first place, who knows.

Edit: Some of these articles are so disturbing...Ugh. I wish I didn't read them. This shit gets me paranoid XD
Example:


> Men, just like children, will always test their boundaries with you. It’s just a fact of life. They don't sit around plotting and planning this behavior intentionally. It's psychological, preprogrammed. It's a gift of insight into the female species from good ole' Mother Nature. At its purest form, it's meant to give them the upper hand - so they can succssfully mate, procreate and perpetuate the human species. It's behavior they're not aware of - but utilizing daily.
> 
> They're honing these skills from childhood. *Very early on young boys learn that the best way to get what they want from the woman in their life, namely mom, is to play on her emotions.* And as we speak, some little boy on some playground somewhere is punching the little girl he likes in the arm, running away, laughing.
> 
> ...


:/


I should add.
*I did the worst with dating when I read articles like these.*
*It just filled me with cynicism, anger and fear. I did better when I cultivated what I liked, because the motivation was from a place of joy, not terror. *
Now that I zeroed in on what I enjoyed most ABOUT MYSELF, dating has become much easier. Thinking of life as abundant rather than scarce removed any tinge of desperation I may have given off and has brought back my sense of fun (which I oh so sorely missed).
Maybe the author is right. 
Maybe life is scarce.
Maybe men are programmed to notice that and hence will screw with my emotions regardless, because it's inbuilt in their brains. 
_See? Nothing personal._
But...that thought process is simply not fun to have.

*To each their own!*


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## Cheesecoffee (Mar 22, 2012)

I would never reward bad behaviour. I think the men who accept bad behaviour from women are desperate and need to expand their options. They suck up to the woman because they're afraid they won't get the chance to meet a good woman again, they think they can't afford to loose her. This means that the man will tolerate bad behaviour from the woman, in the worst scenarious the fear of loss might become a big burden and lead to an unhealthy life. I have seen this happen many times.


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

Torai said:


> You know, nearly every piece of relationship advice I've seen is like that. Men should shut up and listen, and I understand that to an extent. Listening is a great thing to do in relationships, but where do things come in when men want to say something about how they feel?


The succinct advice for men would be:

1) Let a woman speak everything she is thinking about a topic. Don't interrupt. Don't answer point for point. Let her get everything out.

2) At the end confirm with her that these are all her thoughts. It shows you care.

3) NOW you can respond on each point.

It's not about shutting up forever. It's about sequencing.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

which man?
which woman?

there is no single answer to this question. there are as many answers as there are individuals of each gender.


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

I'll keep this short and sweet because I'm in a hurry.


Many men do put up with "bad behaviour" in women because they are afraid of the repercussions.


Personally I don't give a fuck. If shes wrong shes wrong and I call her out on it. I don't bullshit so I wouldn't appreciate being bullshited with.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

sereneone said:


> The succinct advice for men would be:
> 
> 1) Let a woman speak everything she is thinking about a topic. Don't interrupt. Don't answer point for point. Let her get everything out.
> 
> ...


Nicely put, pretty-much straight from John Gray PhD, author of "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus".

Note: John Gray, PhD - did not have a real PhD. It came from a fake university which was shut down (this was exposed in 1996).

Ph.D.? Where did John Gray get his Ph.D.? | The Rebuttal from Uranus

Note: If you listen to all the stupid crap that most women dribble and whine about, you will go fucking insane. Literally. Because most of her "problems" are inane bullshit that *doesn't fucking matter* - it's not like her parents just got killed in a shooting spree, or that she lost a foot in a car accident, know what I mean? It's shit that she is trying to fill your head with.






Fuck that shit. I prefer to keep my sanity.
==========================
Now, to answer the op - yes, many men put up with bad behavior from women. I personally think that it comes from one or more of the following dynamics:

* they're desperate to get laid

* they're afraid to lose the girl that they have

* have put the girl up on a pedestal

* have been brainwashed that women are beautiful and special and precious little snowflakes

("Thank you!" from Tyler Durden in Fight Club - "You are not special snowflakes.")

Because most men subscribe to at least one of the above, they let a woman get away with shit that they'd never let a man get away with. In the end, I think its because in their mind there is a scarcity of women.

Scarcity? Christ! There's plenty of them out there. At last count, half the goddamn world was made up of women. That ain't scarce. Don't be afraid to lose her, there are others.

When you call out the bad behavior of women you are doing them a favor: treating them like a real person.
==========================
Now, on the flip side - yes, many women put up with bad behavior from men. Since I don't know exactly why, I can only think that it might possibly be due to one thing:

* the guy is not a dribbling idiot like the retards above who put up with stupid shit from women

The guy is treating them like a real person. Sure, they might get pissed off with him. When she cools down, he's still treating her like a real human being. Okay it might be he spanked her like a bratty kid who needed a spanking. He's not being a fucking doormat for her to wipe her feet on.

Yeah, she might get pissed off if she's been used to having her feet kissed every second of the day. At least he's not a dribbling idiot though, he treats her like some semblance of a person.

Fuck knows, she might even consider it to be refreshing.

*shrug*

:dry:


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Yardiff Bey said:


> Nicely put, pretty-much straight from John Gray PhD, author of "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus".
> 
> Note: John Gray, PhD - did not have a real PhD. It came from a fake university which was shut down (this was exposed in 1996).
> 
> ...


Wow... You sound like you've got a story or two.


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## Sai (Sep 3, 2012)

marked174 said:


> You're right, they're nuts. They probably shouldn't be allowed to drive or vote; think of all the crazy damage that could be done.
> 
> I'm going to work with the premise that women are equal to men, and should be treated as such (don't get too excited ladies, that means responsibility).
> 
> ...


sexism? when did i say they were inferior? 
I just said that women are insane and they will always ALWAYS make things more complicated than what they really are.
Women are awesome, and i never said they were inferior to men in any way, they are just crazier and more complicated.


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

android654 said:


> Wow... You sound like you've got a story or two.


Well if he does, who's going to care about hearing it after he just whined about women whining? Not me.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

LoveAshley said:


> Well if he does, who's going to care about hearing it after he just whined about women whining? Not me.


I feel a little sympathetic though. He sounds a bit sad and very frustrated. There's got to be an interesting reason behind it. At least entertaining enough in terms of a story.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

android654 said:


> Wow... You sound like you've got a story or two.


I was married for 8-9 years to a BPD/NPD type. A couple stories from that.

That aside, the other stuff up there seems to be what I'm seeing in the New Zealand dating scene. Some ways it is very very scary. No wonder women have a hard time finding a man and are always asking "where did the real men go?" All that they can find is the dribbling idiots like in my post.

:dry:


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

Yardiff Bey said:


> Nicely put, pretty-much straight from John Gray PhD, author of "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus".
> 
> Note: John Gray, PhD - did not have a real PhD. It came from a fake university which was shut down (this was exposed in 1996).
> 
> ...


Fuck yes!, this is exactly what the current dating scene is for many men from across the world. 

Flip side though there are all sorts of abusive men out there are well. I have the same problem though I can never figure out why women put up with it. 

But since a few put up with it they have no right to treat all men on the same level as those that have treated them badly. If you are going to accept someone like that then you are also accepting that side of them as well. 

*You can't change men like that. For fucks sake they will never change if you keep accepting them.
*
*
Bottom Line*

*Fuck everything and treat each other like human beings! For fucks sake people if you keep letting opinions, beliefs, and stereotypes effect your decisions in finding a mate then obviously you are going to find exactly what you are looking for!

This applies to both men and women. Stop looking for what you think is there and try and see what is there.*


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

Yardiff Bey said:


> Note: If you listen to all the stupid crap that most women dribble and whine about, you will go fucking insane. Literally. Because most of her "problems" are inane bullshit that *doesn't fucking matter* - it's not like her parents just got killed in a shooting spree, or that she lost a foot in a car accident, know what I mean? It's shit that she is trying to fill your head with.


Wow, just wondering what would be the title of the book you would write to counter the Mars/Venus book (which I have not read by the way). I'm guessing your book would be titled something like "Just Make Dat Bitch Shut Up Cuz She Iz a Crazy Mudda" 

While I'm sure that would be a best seller, especially among ******** and Felons in prison, for those of us who have to deal with real women, I'm not sure this book would offer any value.

If you don't like women, you don't have to enter relationships with them. For example, you could spend your life in one-night stands and with prostitutes. You have options. Women process information the way they process information. You aren't respecting her if you don't let her get out what she wants to get out. She isn't going to feel valued or want to stay with you if you are always interrupting her and making her shut up before she gets out the feelings she has.

None of this requires you to AGREE with ANYTHING she says. You can still be a strong man and have strong opinions and not put up with clear misbehavior. But a strong man isn't going to be intimidated or put off by a woman's need to say anything. Honestly, it sounds like you have a huge temper and cannot stand women. 

You can make her shut up, and she isn't going to like you for it, and she is going to hate being in a relationship with you. If you want dysfunctional relationships, fine. Not sure why that should be a goal for anyone else.

P.S., If I dated a girl with a nail in her head, I would listen to her conversation. I would then repeat back what she said to me to make her believe I heard it and understood it. Then I would ask her if she wanted to get rid of the pain in her head. If she told me no, I would be pretty sure she was crazier than Osama and wouldn't be staying in a relationship with her. If she said yes, it's just a matter of iteration of various solution approaches until you find one that suits her emotions. It's not rocket science, but it does require patience.


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

Yeah, a relationship is all about give and take. If you want sex but don't want to listen to her feelings, you're gonna have a bad day.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

I think both genders have forgotten how to show each other wisdom, dignity, compassion, forgiveness and maturity and could stand to mature and be more mindful of how they act toward one another. Also expecting your SO to be "everything" solve everything" is co dependent and unfair. It doesn't help the books out there on it are more devised to create fear, anxiety and mistrust. Sad.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

It appears that I did not make this plain enough. I shall now make it more blunt and brutal and to the point.

I DO NOT BLAME WOMEN. I BLAME MEN.

I shall now explain:

Men have enabled bad behavior.

Let us take as an example, the children of a family. The parents say: "What do you want for breakfast?" Children: "Ice cream!" Parents: "Okay!" Same for lunch. Same for dinner. The kids turn out to be spoiled kids.

Blaming a woman for bad behavior is like blaming the kids for being spoiled kids. It's not the kid's fault, the parents enabled that. It's not the women's fault, the men enabled that. We taught/trained women from a young age that they can do it, and goodness knows, they grabbed the ball and ran with it. I sure as shit would.

Therefore: I BLAME MEN FOR ENABLING AND REWARDING BAD BEHAVIOR.

Now, let us examine the three parts that I wrote earlier - hopefully upon reflection it will clarify:



Yardiff Bey said:


> Nicely put, pretty-much straight from John Gray PhD, author of "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus".
> 
> Note: John Gray, PhD - did not have a real PhD. It came from a fake university which was shut down (this was exposed in 1996).
> 
> ...


Good old John Gray (fake) PhD (liar! liar! pants on fire! but boy did he make a million from his lies) taught men to be emotional tampons. Given 9-10 years of personal experience applying this dogshit (deliberately turning myself into a SNAG/Sensitive New Age Guy) with the woman that I married, from experience I have learned that listening to a woman's problems does not "make the well shallower" - as John Gray put it in his book. Just more shit comes out, PLUS it completely turns off your lust with regards to her.

Let me be clear: Listening to a woman's emotional problems and bad shit is a mood (ie boner) killer. Once she's dumped her bad day/week/month/year/LIFETIME into your ears - you are emotionally down and have no desire for sex with her (and probably not with anyone at that point). If you still have lust for her, then you did not actually listen to her.

:dry:



> Now, to answer the op - yes, many men put up with bad behavior from women. I personally think that it comes from one or more of the following dynamics:
> 
> * they're desperate to get laid
> 
> ...


Notice that nothing in here says that women are bad for their behavior. In fact, I am saying (obviously far too subtly) that MEN are displaying bad behavior. Worse behavior, in fact, in letting women get away with bad behavior.

Giving someone a free pass to act out in bad ways simply because they are a woman is VERY bad behavior on a man's part. It is making a woman privileged. Yet men do this deliberately, unthinkingly.

:dry:



> Now, on the flip side - yes, many women put up with bad behavior from men. Since I don't know exactly why, I can only think that it might possibly be due to one thing:
> 
> * the guy is not a dribbling idiot like the retards above who put up with stupid shit from women
> 
> ...


Here I am talking about men who are abusive towards women. (Note: not punching-bag-style abusive a-la Chris Brown and Rihanna, that's way beyond what I am meaning.) Let us examine this in a little more detail:

Girl to boy #1: "Kiss my feet!" Boy kisses her feet. Boy gets pat on the head from mommy/teacher for being nice and kissing girl's feet. Girl to boy #2: "Kiss my feet!" ... all the way up to boy #99. Girl to boy #100: "Kiss my feet!"

Boy #100 laughs in her face: "Tits or get the fuck out."

Girl's eyes go wide: "How dare you not kiss my feet! Kiss my feet!"

Boy #100 laughs again: "Shaddup, turn around, bend over and give me a REAL good look." (I *literally* wrote that on the public post of a woman *on facebook* who was acting out - every single one of my and her friends could see it. She laughed and said that I cracked her up. She also stopped acting out.)

Girl has a shit-fit at the rude way he refused to kiss her feet. Boy walks away. (And maybe later the girl fucks the boy - this might be the dynamic behind the "chicks dig assholes and jerks" meme, in that this boy is different from the rest. Fucked if I know the truth.)

Is Boy #100 rude? Fucking aye. On the other hand, so is the "Kiss my feet!" demand. Rudeness begets rudeness, often in greater measure in response.
--------------------------
Now let us look at this overall dynamic on a meta-level.

99 men in 100 will kiss any random woman's feet, just because she asks for it. He's been trained to and he always got a pat on the head for doing it. It has now become a Pavlovian conditioned response - he will do it reflexively. And hey, maybe he'll get sex out of it.

Random women expect every random man to kiss her feet on demand. She's been trained to expect it and it's happened almost every time she's asked for her feet to be kissed. It has now become a Pavlovian conditioned response - in fact, she now feels entitled to said feet-kissing from every single man that she meets. No, she's not going to give out sex for him doing it.

This is extremely bad on a social level: I cannot seriously imagine that a woman is going to be strongly drawn to any man who will kiss her feet on demand. Not in any kind of "I want to jump your bones this instant" manner.

Facebook. I am strongly cognizant that every time I click the "like" button on a woman's post, I am "in a virtual manner" kissing her feet. It makes me pause.

PersonalityCafe. I am strongly cognizant that every time I click the "like" button on a woman's post, I am "in a virtual manner" kissing her feet. It makes me pause.

Much of what goes up on FaceBook (and Twitter, and pInterest) is banal garbage. Inane and not particularly exciting and any form of life- or world-shaking stuff. Yet, we click that "like" button. We train the women, even more, to expect their feet to be kissed "in a virtual manner".

With PerC, I am thankful that on the whole the posts are from the more intelligent types of men and women. I definitely click "like" for posts which really do make me think. Even if, on a meta-level, I do have what might be called a "crisis of motivation" - in that I am potentially encouraging some bad behavior. Yet, I want to encourage these people to keep coming out with things which make me think, which challenge me, whether I necessarily completely agree with them or not. And I really, honestly try not to jump up and down on them and have a shit-fit or make demeaning, cutting, snide remarks about them and their posts if what they say doesn't agree 100% with my world-view. It is their opinion, they are entitled to it, and hey - it DOES make me think.
==========================
So, after all that TL/DR.

Do I hate women? Fuck no. I love them. I love them for what they are. I love them for what they could be. I love them for their looks. I love them for their personalities. I love them for their thinking. I love them for their emotions. I love them for the way that they can be nurturing. I love them for being able to look at me and laugh and say "too fucking serious dude!" in the knowledge that I will probably laugh and say "yeah you're right!" straight back at them. I love them for me being able to make THEM laugh and relax and enjoy themselves and have a fun time.

I hate the men who put women up on a pedestal. I hate the men who treat women like goddesses. I hate the men who kiss women's feet on demand. I hate the men who forgive (and thereby enable) women's bad actions. I hate the men who make themselves into emotional tampons for women. I hate the men who do not realize that what they do is not good for women on the whole. I hate the men who do not realize that what they do is not good for men on the whole. I hate the men who are like this, because I was like this, and now I struggle to fight that brainwashing/teaching/training with every fiber of my being.

On another, deeper level, it is as you said @android654 - I am sad. It is not men's fault. It is not women's fault. They're just doing what they have been taught/trained to do, all their lives. They're not bad for doing it. They're not bad for not grasping the meta-results of their actions. Hell, they're not bad people in the slightest.

And a yet deeper level still, I am frustrated. I want to grab men and women by the throat and shake some sense into them and yell "why are you not mindful? why are you not mindful? why are you not mindful of what you are doing to each other?!"

Yet, it's not their fucking fault. And what can 1 man out of every 100 do, other than to call out bad behavior? Even so, that is like pissing into a hurricane. Some observations, coupled with a little rant, that I know with a certainty most people will look at and dismiss sneeringly/shamingly/condescendingly as "oh he's just bitter and twisted, I have no interest in listening to him after his little whine about women" with the subtext that anyone who does read it is just as bitter and twisted and not worth listening to themselves - yet, perhaps, 1 person in 100 will pick up and think about. Then ask for some clarification. And maybe it becomes 2 people in 100 who start to call out bad behavior. Because they think that it should be done and think that they know why it should be done, for the benefit of others - everyone - ultimately. Maybe. Nobody has a crystal ball so who the fuck knows?

I give you kudos android654, you caught both my sadness and frustration. I hope that this post answers your indirect question of me as to why I seemed sad and frustrated. Perhaps it will entertain you.

Now? I will go back to observing the world, observing the dancing and dating scene, observing my friends, observing strangers, reading the news, trying to figure out the actual news that is behind the news, and trying to make sense of this often whacked-out society that we men and women have created and live in. Strange creatures, men and women. Strange creatures, human beings.

And fascinating as fuck. Even though they often drive me batshit insane, and sad, and frustrated, and drain the shit out of me. And me likewise doing the same to them. Fascinating as fuck.

Nothing is more interesting than other people. Fuck video games. Fuck dumbass movies. Fuck porn. Other people are the most endlessly engrossing and unpredictable and interesting thing in this world.

See you next time, next question, next personal experience related, next answer from me as to what I've observed and what conclusions I've personally drawn from my thinking about things. Is my thinking right? Who the fuck knows? In 100 years, when I'm dead, will it fucking matter anyway? Does it mean shit in the grander scheme of the universe as a whole?

*shrug*


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Blaming a woman for bad behavior is like blaming the kids for being spoiled kids. It's not the kid's fault, the parents enabled that. It's not the women's fault, the men enabled that. We taught/trained women from a young age that they can do it, and goodness knows, they grabbed the ball and ran with it. I sure as shit would. @_Yardiff Bey_ 

{No. absolutely not. They have a choice from that young age on up. Its nice of you to let my gender off the hook but does them no favors. 

There is a niche that matured beyond a toddler mindset. Its truly possible, I swear. We scoff at them and let them live out their reality tv fantasies getting drunk attacking guys, bitching and trashing their SO with no regard for discretion and respect, studiously avoiding friendships with them, and shake our heads at the civil war worthy mental casualties left in their wake. We even try to help some of those casualties.}


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

LeoCat said:


> Blaming a woman for bad behavior is like blaming the kids for being spoiled kids. It's not the kid's fault, the parents enabled that. It's not the women's fault, the men enabled that. We taught/trained women from a young age that they can do it, and goodness knows, they grabbed the ball and ran with it. I sure as shit would. @_Yardiff Bey_
> 
> {No. absolutely not. They have a choice from that young age on up. Its nice of you to let my gender off the hook but does them no favors.
> 
> There is a niche that matured beyond a toddler mindset. Its truly possible, I swear. We scoff at them and let them live out their reality tv fantasies getting drunk attacking guys, bitching and trashing their SO with no regard for discretion and respect, studiously avoiding friendships with them, and shake our heads at the civil war worthy mental casualties left in their wake. We even try to help some of those casualties.}


In some ways yes, I am letting your gender off the hook. In some ways no, I am not letting them off the hook. Like children, this process started at a very early age. Many adults are definitely not capable of dealing with things and issues that they learned as children - we do not even realize that we have these attitudes and habits, let alone try to wake up to them and do something about them.

Let us be honest: we people here in PerC are (I like to think) more intelligent and reasoning than most people and attempting to be more mindful than most people. We are probably well amongst the top 5% of human beings (not all of them in the world are here obviously, we ourselves are only here due to some statistical fluke or circumstance). This is why we think about and ask each other about things which don't make sense to us. We want clarity, or at least ideas that can lead us towards clarity.

We wish to be mindful.

So we cannot, in justice, blame the other 95% of people in the world for not being in the top 5% that we are. We cannot blame them for not being as mindful as we attempt to be. They have not gone through the "triggers" that we have and that we seek to make sense of.

I read once that it is difficult for someone with an IQ 115 to communicate with someone with an IQ 100 (average). It becomes almost impossible between IQ 130 and IQ 100 - the two people are incapable of comprehending each other's thinking. We have people on this board who have IQ 160+ - I look at their posts sometimes and _shiver inside because I honestly cannot understand how they think_. (My IQ is in the puny 130-145 range, yet I do try to offer them my dumbass lowbrow thoughts if I think that it might actually be of help.) That doesn't make me a bad or worthless person. It doesn't make them a bad or worthless person. We simply think differently.

At any rate. We try to be mindful, we try to help each other - though fuck knows I feel like a huge failure at times in THAT undertaking, lol - and we rationally cannot look at someone else who is un-mindful and say that they're bad for it. The worst that we can say is that they are un-mindful and try to point it out occasionally.

Hell, I don't know what the point is of what I'm trying to say. Maybe the gist/general feel gets through, somehow, eh?


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

LeoCat said:


> I think both genders have forgotten how to show each other wisdom, dignity, compassion, forgiveness and maturity and could stand to mature and be more mindful of how they act toward one another. Also expecting your SO to be "everything" solve everything" is co dependent and unfair. It doesn't help the books out there on it are more devised to create fear, anxiety and mistrust. Sad.



Forgotten? When did they start?


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## Mettamomma (Oct 22, 2012)

Many men are attracted to unstable, hyper feminine bitches just like many women are attracted to macho bad boys.


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## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

Payoffs and motivations seem easier to measure than people.


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

Yardiff, I completely agree with the principal you are talking about....but I fear you have some strange ideas about what is bad behavior and what constitutes as pedestalization. You actually think that clicking the like button of a woman's post on facebook equals kissing their feet?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Yardiff Bey said:


> Now? I will go back to observing the world, observing the dancing and dating scene, observing my friends, observing strangers, reading the news, trying to figure out the actual news that is behind the news, and trying to make sense of this often whacked-out society that we men and women have created and live in. Strange creatures, men and women. Strange creatures, human beings.
> 
> And fascinating as fuck. Even though they often drive me batshit insane, and sad, and frustrated, and drain the shit out of me. And me likewise doing the same to them. Fascinating as fuck.
> 
> Nothing is more interesting than other people. Fuck video games. Fuck dumbass movies. Fuck porn. Other people are the most endlessly engrossing and unpredictable and interesting thing in this world.


*That was the best fucking rant I've ever read on PerC!* Bravo.

And I think there was alot of truth to it.

BTW have you listened to the 12 episodes of the Black Phillip Show? It's gained a cult following as a catharsis for frustrated men.


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## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

Anyone else find it interesting that here on a forum that revolves around personality type people are so quick to fall back on the "women are X and men are Y" stereotypes?

In my experience personality type trumps gender roles, although both do play their part. If anyone seriously thinks that an INTJ woman would behave and communicate the same way an ESFP woman in a relationship they're in for one hell of a shock.

Trying to shoehorn all men and all women into tidy little boxes of expected behaviour is never going to end well. I can see how this happens. People are generally attracted to certain types, so if every person they date has a similar behaviour pattern, it would be easy for them to conclude that all women/men are such and such. There is also some gender-based behavioural conditioning in our society which would account for some commonalities. However, many people reject the gender conditioning so it would by no means be universal.

So I guess the next question is: why are men and women attracted to certain personality types?

As was brought up earlier, women who don't fit the stereotypical mold of the bat-shit crazy melodrama queen are often overlooked. Where does that come from? And why are men so willing to put up with that behaviour?


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

Yardiff, what would *really* help here are examples of specific behavior. You have been through a really frustrating and difficult relationship, and so much of what you are writing is a frustrated rant.

Can you give us some examples of what a woman says when (in your opinion) she is acting out in an unreasonable way?

And I'm going to ask you to stretch and also give us an example of a woman giving an emotional dump of her feelings that you would find acceptable. Because clearly not all emotional venting is acting out, and understanding where you classify behavior is important to developing sympathy to your point.

Clearly, some women behave very badly. I walk away from those women and have no interest in acting as their trainer. However I totally understand that sometimes such women enjoy a strong man putting them in their place. And some men enjoy doing that. I think such relationships are however totally dysfunctional. The woman wants to act out in abnormal ways and wants to have someone stronger than her call her behavior. The man in such a relationship gets off on taking control of her abusive behavior. Each member of such a relationship gets off on the other, but you can't hold this kind of relationship up as an example of the norm. You cannot use it as a model for how normal men should relate to normal women. 

It's an interesting question what percentage of the top 10% of desirable women exhibit such behavior. I don't have a broad enough sample to say. My guess would be about 20% of that 10%, and it's that high because they are highly desired targets and therefore they have become a bit pompous because of the number of men who will say and do anything to get them. 

I have never found such women attractive at all, and I wonder why you exert any effort toward them at all. The irony here is that you appear to be deeply attracted to the very behavior you despise.


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

jayde said:


> Anyone else find it interesting that here on a forum that revolves around personality type people are so quick to fall back on the "women are X and men are Y" stereotypes?
> 
> In my experience personality type trumps gender roles, although both do play their part. If anyone seriously thinks that an INTJ woman would behave and communicate the same way an ESFP woman in a relationship they're in for one hell of a shock.
> 
> ...



Let me just answer with two broad questions. (note I am not answering the last question as it was already answered in a previous post very thoroughly).


1) How many men and women in the world actually make an effort to develop their personality as apposed to living according to an accepted stereotype?

2) Concerning numbers in particular, you said women who don't fit the bat-shit stereotypical mold are often overlooked. On average how many women per say a sample size of 1000 would not have that stereotype? how easy is it to identify them?


Even here on PerC we are all minorities. Some more so than others. The debates that take place here are not about the people on this forum but much rather the personal experiences we have to go through in life.


The biggest problem is many people are asking for objective analysis alongside life experiences about several topics, but almost always they are met with subjective experiences clouded with emotions and relayed in a manner that is unfavorable to the topic at hand.


So you tell me then, do you honestly think that the people who are looking for answers don't already know the existence of such exceptions? and they are not trying to shoehorn anyone into any box but would much rather try and develop an overall understanding on the matter at hand?


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> Because of that story the next time I drive by a woman looking helpless at a flat tyre, I'm going to honk my horn and give her the finger.


:shocked: You're so mean! 
Besides, guys love to be needed. They only get disappointed when they show up in their superman cape and we tell them we can manage. You can literally see their chest deflate.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

monemi said:


> I hadn't noticed drastically more intelligent people on PerC. Some posts, I look at and find stiflingly boring. I dropped out of university. School wasn't hard, just BORING. I don't know my IQ, but I'm pretty sure I'm just average in the 100 range. I don't struggle to understand people who can barely read and I haven't struggled with people who I know have high IQ's (I handle people better IRL when I'm not handicapped talking with my hands). They could be faking and just being polite to me. Still, I suspect you're overestimating the average IQ on PerC.


I've worked with people since I was about 12, and over time I just started using certain patterns over and over again to manage those interactions. My IQ has been tested in the 120 - 145 range, with most coming in at the high 130s, and I can honestly say that I don't "get" most of the people I meet. At the same time, I know many people who probably have lower IQs that are better with other things, for instance I'm often in awe of people with highly developed social skills.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Scelerat said:


> I've worked with people since I was about 12, and over time I just started using certain patterns over and over again to manage those interactions. My IQ has been tested in the 120 - 145 range, with most coming in at the high 130s, and I can honestly say that I don't "get" most of the people I meet. At the same time, I know many people who probably have lower IQs that are better with other things, for instance I'm often in awe of people with highly developed social skills.


Well, being able to flip 30 beer mats might win you a round of drinks in a pub, but it isn't a living. I have to be good at something that pays. 

ETA: That was a vague response. Specifically good with people. I see posters knock ESTP's a lot on here. I wonder if they're mistyping, because if as many people disliked me as people say they dislike my type, my life would be very different.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> LMAO. Women are meant to be loved, not understood  XD....and yes, most women are bat shit crazy..hah


Knowing you, this is a lighthearted statement, but unfortunately its going to feed the misogynists who have been unlucky in love. Some of them are "unattractive," their personalities stink, and they're bitter and unpleasant as hell, but they want to believe negative generalizations about women so they can blame women as a whole for why they personally strike out in romance, instead of recognizing the source of the problem is themselves. Its an epidemic on this forum. lol


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

To quote my youngest sister, "Bitches be crazy."


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Knowing you, this is a lighthearted statement, but unfortunately its going to feed the misogynists who have been unlucky in love. Some of them are "unattractive," their personalities stink, and they're bitter and unpleasant as hell, but they want to believe negative generalizations about women so they can blame women as a whole for why they personally strike out in romance, instead of recognizing the source of the problem is themselves. Its an epidemic on this forum. lol


Yes, it was said in fun, you know me, lol. Speaking of crazy, this was my facebook status today. I was fed up with watching men treat women like crap , mentally and emotionally. So to all you men out there, this is what i really think about men who try and brainwash/manipulate women when you can't get what you want.

By dismissing a woman’s behavior or concerns as CRAZY, men inadvertently take part in a behavior known as *gaslighting*. Gaslighting is a term used by psychologists to describe abusive behavior where a person is made to feel as though their emotions and reactions are irrational, even (dare I say) crazy. Gaslighting – minimizing their feelings, reframing them as being unreasonable – is classic abusive behavior. It’s telling someone that they don’t have a right to the way they feel because what they’re feeling is wrong. Their feelings or their concerns or behavior isn’t *rational*. Once you take away their right to their feelings, it’s that much easier to manipulate a person into the way you want them to behave.

Labeling women as *crazy* is a way of controlling them. It may not be something planned or pre-meditated, but the ease with which men call women *crazy* says a lot about them. Calling a woman *crazy* is quick and easy shut-down to any discussion. Once the *crazy* card has been pulled out, women are now put on the defensive: the onus is no longer on the man to address her concerns or her issue, it’s on her to justify her behavior, to prove that she is not, in fact, crazy or irrational. Men don’t even have to provide any sort of argument back – it’s a classic catch-22; the fact that you don’t even see that you’re acting crazy is just proof that it’s crazy.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Yes, it was said in fun, you know me, lol. Speaking of crazy, this was my facebook status today. I was fed up with watching men treat women like crap , mentally and emotionally. So to all you men out there, this is what i really think about men who try and brainwash/manipulate women when you can't get what you want.
> 
> By dismissing a woman’s behavior or concerns as CRAZY, men inadvertently take part in a behavior known as *gaslighting*. Gaslighting is a term used by psychologists to describe abusive behavior where a person is made to feel as though their emotions and reactions are irrational, even (dare I say) crazy. Gaslighting – minimizing their feelings, reframing them as being unreasonable – is classic abusive behavior. It’s telling someone that they don’t have a right to the way they feel because what they’re feeling is wrong. Their feelings or their concerns or behavior isn’t *rational*. Once you take away their right to their feelings, it’s that much easier to manipulate a person into the way you want them to behave.
> 
> Labeling women as *crazy* is a way of controlling them. It may not be something planned or pre-meditated, but the ease with which men call women *crazy* says a lot about them. Calling a woman *crazy* is quick and easy shut-down to any discussion. Once the *crazy* card has been pulled out, women are now put on the defensive: the onus is no longer on the man to address her concerns or her issue, it’s on her to justify her behavior, to prove that she is not, in fact, crazy or irrational. Men don’t even have to provide any sort of argument back – it’s a classic catch-22; the fact that you don’t even see that you’re acting crazy is just proof that it’s crazy.


A man expresses a strong emotion and its generally seen as passionate..
A woman expresses a strong emotion and shes a "psychobitch"

le sigh.

And yeah, the gaslighting thing is something I have experienced unfortunately. Sometimes one's intuition can pick something up, if its something important and relevant to the foundation of the relationship and they continue to lie about it and tell you're 'crazy' for even thinking its happening - thats definitely gaslighting. It can really screw someone up.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Promethea said:


> A man expresses a strong emotion and its generally seen as passionate..
> A woman expresses a strong emotion and shes a "psychobitch"
> 
> le sigh.
> ...


I'm sorry that you had to experience that. Mind games can mess a women up pretty bad, men don't see it as a form of abuse. Women use their six sense, they know what is going on, and these lies and lies you speak of is another dagger to the heart, mostly because they think you're so stupid you couldn't possibly figure it out. I hope you find yourself a nice man, someone who respects you, and treats you the way women deserve to be treated. ( yikkes) not sure why i'm assuming you already haven't lol. If you did and he treats you with kindness, respect and love, for gods sake put him in a cage and keep him. Good men are very few and far between, the rest are players, liars, cheaters and beaters.


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## Debaser (Jul 17, 2013)

Promethea said:


> A man expresses a strong emotion and its generally seen as passionate..
> A woman expresses a strong emotion and shes a "psychobitch"
> 
> le sigh.
> ...


Actually, a man who expresses strong emotion is generally seen as a pussy. At least by other men. Particularly insecure other men. It's not something which is very socially accepted. That's why a lot of men are reluctant to believe they are "F" types and will often try to repress their emotions as much as possible in public.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Yes, it was said in fun, you know me, lol. Speaking of crazy, this was my facebook status today. I was fed up with watching men treat women like crap , mentally and emotionally. So to all you men out there, this is what i really think about men who try and brainwash/manipulate women when you can't get what you want.
> 
> By dismissing a woman’s behavior or concerns as CRAZY, men inadvertently take part in a behavior known as *gaslighting*. Gaslighting is a term used by psychologists to describe abusive behavior where a person is made to feel as though their emotions and reactions are irrational, even (dare I say) crazy. Gaslighting – minimizing their feelings, reframing them as being unreasonable – is classic abusive behavior. It’s telling someone that they don’t have a right to the way they feel because what they’re feeling is wrong. Their feelings or their concerns or behavior isn’t *rational*. Once you take away their right to their feelings, it’s that much easier to manipulate a person into the way you want them to behave.
> 
> Labeling women as *crazy* is a way of controlling them. It may not be something planned or pre-meditated, but the ease with which men call women *crazy* says a lot about them. Calling a woman *crazy* is quick and easy shut-down to any discussion. Once the *crazy* card has been pulled out, women are now put on the defensive: the onus is no longer on the man to address her concerns or her issue, it’s on her to justify her behavior, to prove that she is not, in fact, crazy or irrational. Men don’t even have to provide any sort of argument back – it’s a classic catch-22; the fact that you don’t even see that you’re acting crazy is just proof that it’s crazy.


Now I'm confused. If a guy calls a girl crazy, he's gaslighting, but if a girl calls a guy "unattractive, bitter, and unpleasant as hell" then she's not gaslighting? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're gonna call out dismissiveness, I suggest you make sure to cover both sides.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Criticizing guys who blame women for not wanting to go out with them is different than writing off someone's emotions(legitimacy not mentioned) as crazy just for having them. And I'm not straight, but I see this all the time and I don't understand it one bit


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

lycanized said:


> Blaming women for not wanting to go out with you is different than writing off someone's emotions(legitimacy not mentioned) as crazy just for having them. And I'm not straight, but I see this all the time and I don't understand it one bit


Assuming that people are blaming women because they don'y want to go out with them (a reason which was presumed, not declared) is a form of writing off of someone's emotions. It's the same thing.

Girl: Something's bothering me.
Boy: Be quiet, woman, you're just crazy... cuz you have periods and stuff.

Boy: Something's bothering me
Girl: Be quiet, man, you're just bitter... cuz you can't get laid and stuff.

It's the same thing.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

marked174 said:


> Assuming that people are blaming women because they don'y want to go out with them (a reason which was presumed, not declared) is a form of writing off of someone's emotions. It's the same thing.
> 
> Girl: Something's bothering me.
> Boy: Be quiet, woman, you're just crazy... cuz you have periods and stuff.
> ...


I mean there are threads where guys are literally blaming women for not wanting to go out with them. Where they're actually angry at women because they can't get a date. Either you read it for what it is, or read between the lines. Some guys do it, not all, but you can't deny it makes no sense


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## Rainbow (Aug 30, 2010)

no


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

marked174 said:


> Now I'm confused. If a guy calls a girl crazy, he's gaslighting, but if a girl calls a guy "unattractive, bitter, and unpleasant as hell" then she's not gaslighting? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're gonna call out dismissiveness, I suggest you make sure to cover both sides.


Absolutely, it goes both ways. Not sure what your talking about with unattractive, bitter, and unpleasant as hell, i don't recall saying anything of the sort. Anyway, both men and women can be verbally abusive , treat the other like crap, and make life a living hell through manipulation and control.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> By dismissing a woman’s behavior or concerns as CRAZY, men inadvertently take part in a behavior known as *gaslighting*. Gaslighting is a term used by psychologists to describe abusive behavior where a person is made to feel as though their emotions and reactions are irrational, even (dare I say) crazy. Gaslighting – minimizing their feelings, reframing them as being unreasonable – is classic abusive behavior. It’s telling someone that they don’t have a right to the way they feel because what they’re feeling is wrong. Their feelings or their concerns or behavior isn’t *rational*. Once you take away their right to their feelings, it’s that much easier to manipulate a person into the way you want them to behave.


Yes and no, If someone's acting crazy, calling them out on it is not "gas-lighting" it's an observation and a judgment. Emotions are frequently irrational, reactions can often be the same in both men and women. You definition of "gas-lighting" is "regardless of how crazy and irrational a woman acts you can never call her on it because it's abusive behavior".


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Found this on my Facebook feed this morning. Seemed relevant. *chuckles*


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

changos said:


> *I invite you to consider the following* that I find related, a lot.
> 
> Very common photo about female models in the past
> 
> ...


I think they are going for distant and untouchable. Also, this is by no means a new trend. You can see it for yourself in ads from before the 50's. In fact it was more common for them to make a non-expression before the 50s where they would have to smile wide, this has something to do with dentistry and color ads I think. After the 50s you would see a mix of smiling and sort of distantly pleasant to the "cold" look you mentioned.











I think CoCo Chanel here best exemplifies the fierce woman look:









In any case, it's probably just the style that's in right now. Also, see this article:
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02/23/solved-the-mystery-of-the-miserable-models/?_r=0

It basically says that higher status translates to smiling less and a non smiling face is therefore associated with higher status goods. It's kind of a tricky psychology shorthand so they don't have to try as hard with a larger campaign to convince you of that. That's why cheaper crap usually has friendlier looking models.


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## Sun Lips (Jan 28, 2013)

My man punishes bad behavior. But it's secretly a reward.

See, I just skipped over all the social implications of this thread and made it sexual.

I need a spanking.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Debaser said:


> Actually, a man who expresses strong emotion is generally seen as a pussy. At least by other men. Particularly insecure other men. It's not something which is very socially accepted. That's why a lot of men are reluctant to believe they are "F" types and will often try to repress their emotions as much as possible in public.


If its sadness, but if its aggressiveness or anger its still acceptable. Not for women though.


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## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

Debaser said:


> Actually, a man who expresses strong emotion is generally seen as a pussy. At least by other men. Particularly insecure other men. It's not something which is very socially accepted. That's why a lot of men are reluctant to believe they are "F" types and will often try to repress their emotions as much as possible in public.


I am sure I have experienced 'gaslighting' too with emotions or feeling awareness seeming scary to some.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

marked174 said:


> It's a legitimate comparison. This particular form of gaslighting is called "code purple". It's far less rare than you think.
> 
> *Charge of Rationalization (Code Purple) – The Sour Grapes Charge*
> Discussion: The target is accused of explaining away his own failures and/or dissatisfaction by blaming women for his problems. Example:
> ...


It's an example of an irrational emotional response, blaming someone for their subjective feelings or opinions. What was called gaslighting for women was that because they are women, most of their emotions are gonna be seen as irrational. If it actually is irrational, then whatever

Also, most men don't give a shit about unfair treatment of women


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

lycanized said:


> Also, most men don't give a shit about unfair treatment of women


1. I'd love to see the data on that claim.
2. I wasn't talking about most men. I was talking about how I can admit to unfair treatment of others while some women can't.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

marked174 said:


> 1. I'd love to see the data on that claim.
> 2. I wasn't talking about most men. I was talking about how I can admit to unfair treatment of others while some women can't.


1. I don't get my thoughts from empirical, collected data. It's just easily observable

2. I know, but you're one man, so I don't know how you could wonder why some women can't admit it when some men can't admit women are unfairly treated either. It shouldn't be sucha surprise


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Don't try and understand them, just rope, pole, and brand them ...

I listed the settings and not only gave examples but discussed them.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

lycanized said:


> It's an example of an irrational emotional response, blaming someone for their subjective feelings or opinions. What was called gaslighting for women was that because they are women, most of their emotions are gonna be seen as irrational. If it actually is irrational, then whatever


Gaslighting according to Dorpat is "Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse where the abuser manipulates situations repeatedly to trick the victim into distrusting his or her own memory and perceptions." What has been themed gas lighting in this thread is not gas lighting, it's at best ad hominem. 



> Also, most men don't give a shit about unfair treatment of women


I do give a shit when I judge the treatment as being unfair, I don't give a shit when I perceive the woman as bitching and whining about nothing.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Scelerat said:


> Gaslighting according to Dorpat is "Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse where the abuser manipulates situations repeatedly to trick the victim into distrusting his or her own memory and perceptions." What has been themed gas lighting in this thread is not gas lighting, it's at best ad hominem.
> 
> 
> 
> I do give a shit when I judge the treatment as being unfair, I don't give a shit when I perceive the woman as bitching and whining about nothing.


If a person's issue is psychological or emotional in nature, how can you use an external unit of measurement and apply it to a specific individual?


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Promethea said:


> And yeah, the gaslighting thing is something I have experienced unfortunately. Sometimes one's intuition can pick something up, if its something important and relevant to the foundation of the relationship and they continue to lie about it and tell you're 'crazy' for even thinking its happening - thats definitely gaslighting. It can really screw someone up.


Ha, it's happened to me on here just about every single time I call someone out on misogynistic BS. "Oh, you're just being butt-hurt because it's true." Nope! I'm just calling you out because you're full of shit. 

I recently started "Mad Men" (yeah, late to the game). Case in point is how Betty starts questioning herself and thinking she's nuts for being anxious (at least partly) because her husband's cheating on her, she has no agency, and her future feels unstable.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Scelerat said:


> Gaslighting according to Dorpat is "Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse where the abuser manipulates situations repeatedly to trick the victim into distrusting his or her own memory and perceptions." What has been themed gas lighting in this thread is not gas lighting, it's at best ad hominem.


Well, that explains the confusion then. Thanks.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

chimeric said:


> Ha, it's happened to me on here just about every single time I call someone out on misogynistic BS. "Oh, you're just being butt-hurt because it's true." Nope! I'm just calling you out because you're full of shit.
> 
> I recently started "Mad Men" (yeah, late to the game). Case in point is how Betty starts questioning herself and thinking she's nuts for being anxious (at least partly) because her husband's cheating on her, she has no agency, and her future feels unstable.


I think that if you have been with someone long enough, you can just sense something is off. When they then keep denying it, it cripples your faith in you gut, your intuition.. and when they actually go a step further and say you're crazy/delusional/paranoid, wanting you to really doubt your own mind, I certainly count that as gaslighting. 

"And thinking shes nuts for being anxious" -- yeah, its a real mindfuck.


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## Debaser (Jul 17, 2013)

lycanized said:


> 1. I don't get my thoughts from empirical, collected data. It's just easily observable


How is it easily observable? Have you actually observed "most men?" Seems like something of a "sexist" statement in itself. And I think most men probably support equality for women, just not superiority of women.


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## Debaser (Jul 17, 2013)

chimeric said:


> I recently started "Mad Men" (yeah, late to the game). Case in point is how Betty starts questioning herself and thinking she's nuts for being anxious (at least partly) because her husband's cheating on her, she has no agency, and her future feels unstable.


Keep watching. You'll see. You'll see.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Scelerat said:


> Gaslighting according to Dorpat is "Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse where the abuser manipulates situations repeatedly to trick the victim into distrusting his or her own memory and perceptions." What has been themed gas lighting in this thread is not gas lighting, it's at best ad hominem.


I actually agree, i was just going by the definition in the thread, they're still not comparable




> I do give a shit when I judge the treatment as being unfair, I don't give a shit when I perceive the woman as bitching and whining about nothing.


Not sure what bitching and whining has to do with unfair treatment, but you're one person. Most guys don't give a shit


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## Debaser (Jul 17, 2013)

lycanized said:


> Not sure what bitching and whining has to do with unfair treatment, but you're one person. Most guys don't give a shit


That's an awfully definitive statement to make for something that has no evidence or logical reasoning to support it whatsoever. It's also ironically sexist.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Debaser said:


> How is it easily observable? Have you actually observed "most men?" Seems like something of a "sexist" statement in itself. And I think most men probably support equality for women, just not superiority of women.


Is that discrimination? Most guys don't care, it's just what I've seen. If I said most women don't care for unfair treatment of men it wouldn't be an issue.I'm not really sure why people are mentioning things like superiority or whining when all that was mentioned was unfair treatment. It's like when someone feels unfairly treated it's immediately suspected to just be purely nothing, not worth anything at all


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Debaser said:


> That's an awfully definitive statement to make for something that has no evidence or logical reasoning to support it whatsoever. It's also ironically sexist.


I can't really say anything about guys without it being sexist? Just earlier I sent a message to someone saying I tend to get along better with guys, perhaps do to less inhibition in their thoughts. Another observation. But I'm sure no one would care about that


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## Debaser (Jul 17, 2013)

lycanized said:


> Is that discrimination? Most guys don't care, it's just what I've seen. If I said most women don't care for unfair treatment of men it wouldn't be an issue.I'm not really sure why people are mentioning things like superiority or whining when all that was mentioned was unfair treatment. It's like when someone feels unfairly treated it's immediately suspected to just be purely nothing, not worth anything at all


No, that's not it. It's the simple fact that you are making inaccurate and judgmental claims about literally half of the population based on a subjective and disproportionate sample group.



lycanized said:


> I can't really say anything about guys without it being sexist? Just earlier I sent a message to someone saying I tend to get along better with guys, perhaps do to less inhibition in their thoughts. Another observation. But I'm sure no one would care about that


There are real differences between the sexes, yes. But really? You think that includes not giving a shit about anyone else's struggle for equality? That has nothing to do with gender; it has to do with a lack of empathy. Even if what you are saying is true, there is a big difference between correlation and causation. It wouldn't be that "most guys" don't care about gender equality because they are men, but rather just because they don't care. And again, there is no basis for your rather grandiose and subjective claims. There's also the fact that what one person considers to be "fair" another might not. So many variables to account for that you did not.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

lycanized said:


> I can't really say anything about guys without it being sexist? Just earlier I sent a message to someone saying I tend to get along better with guys, perhaps do to less inhibition in their thoughts. Another observation. But I'm sure no one would care about that


"I'm not racist. I have many colored friends."
Sounds kinda like that.

Regardless, I would still like to hear of instances where men behave counter intuitively in relationships.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

marked174 said:


> "I'm not racist. I have many colored friends."
> Sounds kinda like that.
> 
> Regardless, I would still like to hear of instances where men behave counter intuitively in relationships.


It's not sexist to point out something like that, you guys are PC as hell


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Debaser said:


> No, that's not it. It's the simple fact that you are making inaccurate and judgmental claims about literally half of the population based on a subjective and disproportionate sample group.
> 
> 
> 
> There are real differences between the sexes, yes. But really? You think that includes not giving a shit about anyone else's struggle for equality? That has nothing to do with gender; it has to do with a lack of empathy. Even if what you are saying is true, there is a big difference between correlation and causation. It wouldn't be that "most guys" don't care about gender equality because they are men, but rather just because they don't care. And again, there is no basis for your rather grandiose and subjective claims. There's also the fact that what one person considers to be "fair" another might not. So many variables to account for that you did not.


Sorry for offending you


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