# My ESTJ daughter just did something painful to me...



## Oakwillow (Sep 15, 2014)

My adult daughter, an ESTJ, just did something that I don't understand and it was very painful to me.
I'm an INFP and feel things deeply. She thinks, and runs over people's feelings without seeming to notice.
That's difficult enough to try and have a good relationship, but now she's done this.

I was abused in childhood and have protected myself by keeping my abusers out of my adult life.
My daughter just sought out one of these people on Facebook and friended them, thus bringing them into my Facebook circle.

This set off my alarms and I gently explained to her what this meant to me. Also to me, this is a huge breach of family and loyalty etiquette: you don't go friend your family member's enemy. Am I wrong about this?

Knowing that she is a thinker and wouldn't relate to my feelings, I tried to gently explain the facts. She can never see that she might not be anything other than right. She never listened to my side of the story. She wouldn't even consider what effect her actions had on me. 

I diplomatically praised her and reassured her of my love for her, then told her how this caused problems for me. She ignored my facts and replied with attacks on me. I did not engage with replies to her attacks and after days of my tears and her continuing to attack me and blame me for all of this, I told her we were at an impasse and we should just let it all go and move on with our relationship. Her reply this morning was that we were at an impasses and we were going to end our relationship for a while.

I don't even care anymore about having to deal with the abuser on Facebook, that's not the issue anymore. My daughter cares so little for me that she would do something that hurts me, even after she was told how it affected me. She wouldn't listen to my gentle explanations no matter how diplomatically I phrased them. She responded with attacks on me. 

I don't understand and I am very hurt. It's like we are speaking two different languages and not making sense at all. She's basically a good person and can be loving and kind. I don't want to lose my daughter, I just don't understand what I can possibly do to keep her, having tried everything I know how in relating to a thinker?

I'd appreciate your insights on this.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Oakwillow said:


> I diplomatically praised her and reassured her of my love for her, then told her how this caused problems for me. *She ignored my facts and replied with attacks on me*. I did not engage with replies to her attacks and after days of my tears and her continuing to attack me and blame me for all of this


Want to expand on this? Gut feeling leans towards getting only one subjective part of this problem.


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## Oakwillow (Sep 15, 2014)

> Want to expand on this? Gut feeling leans towards getting only one subjective part of this problem.


Yes, thank you.

For example: I told her about the post traumatic stress that I experience from abuse. I told her that my therapist had instructed me to keep all things that trigger that post traumatic abuse, out of my life, like the abusers themselves. I have created safe worlds, in real life and online, without the abusers or anything else that would trigger the post traumatic stress.

I had told my daughter throughout her life what these abusers did to me and how badly it affected me. I thought if I just reminded her of that, then she would of course un-friend the person, because I was more important to her. 

(These abusers have turned many family members against me to the point that they have cut me out of their lives, thinking I am a bad person because the abusers tell them things were my fault, and I was to blame. Not so, I was an innocent child who was attacked. So the danger exists that if these people are exposed to my daughter they will try to turn her against me also.)

Her reply was putting me down for having "so many enemies and making so many enemies" and to tell me that she was above such things and didn't ostracize people when they made mistakes. 

I don't think she understand what it is to be abused, and have an enemy thrust upon you; that you don't go out and make an enemy just because you are an immature person and don't deal well with them.

She then told me that I had hurt her deeply over some incidents in her youth, totally unrelated to the conversation. These incidents were events that I did not intend to hurt her, she just misunderstood what was happening and never asked for clarification. I thought if I explained the misunderstanding she would see that she wasn't harmed and would feel better. She didn't even listen or reply to these explanations.

It is confusing and hurtful. Every time I try to reply with logic, she ignores what I say. When I try to tell her what I feel, she discounts it.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Oakwillow said:


> My adult daughter, an ESTJ, just did something that I don't understand and it was very painful to me.
> I'm an INFP and feel things deeply.


And she doesn't feel things deeply?



Oakwillow said:


> She thinks, and runs over people's feelings without seeming to notice.
> That's difficult enough to try and have a good relationship, but now she's done this.


She's your daughter. In all this time, you haven't learned coping skills and figured out a way to communicate effectively with her? 



Oakwillow said:


> I was abused in childhood and have protected myself by keeping my abusers out of my adult life.
> My daughter just sought out one of these people on Facebook and friended them, thus bringing them into my Facebook circle.
> 
> This set off my alarms and I gently explained to her what this meant to me. Also to me, this is a huge breach of family and loyalty etiquette: you don't go friend your family member's enemy. Am I wrong about this?


Depends on the back story. 



Oakwillow said:


> Knowing that she is a thinker and wouldn't relate to my feelings, I tried to gently explain the facts. She can never see that she might not be anything other than right. She never listened to my side of the story. She wouldn't even consider what effect her actions had on me.


You presume she didn't think about what effect her actions would have you. 



Oakwillow said:


> I *diplomatically praised her* and *reassured her of my love* for her, then told her *how this caused problems for me*.


You tried to manipulate her and then made comments that look an awful lot like a veiled threat. 



Oakwillow said:


> She ignored my facts and replied with attacks on me.


You just hurt her by trying to emotionally manipulate her to do what you want. My mother never would have done that. 



Oakwillow said:


> I did not engage with replies to her attacks and after days of my tears and her continuing to attack me and blame me for all of this, I told her we were at an impasse and we should just let it all go and move on with our relationship. Her reply this morning was that we were at an impasses and we were going to end our relationship for a while.


Too little too late. 



Oakwillow said:


> I don't even care anymore about having to deal with the abuser on Facebook, that's not the issue anymore. My daughter cares so little for me that she would do something that hurts me, even after she was told how it affected me. She wouldn't listen to my gentle explanations no matter how diplomatically I phrased them. She responded with attacks on me.


You keep saying you're trying to give gentle explanations that sound an awful like emotional manipulating her and trying to control her. That doesn't sound like she cares little for you. It sounds like you're hurting her and then surprised when ESTJ doesn't yield to your pressure. 



Oakwillow said:


> I don't understand and I am very hurt. It's like we are speaking two different languages and not making sense at all. She's basically a good person and can be loving and kind. I don't want to lose my daughter, I just don't understand what I can possibly do to keep her, having tried everything I know how in relating to a thinker?
> 
> I'd appreciate your insights on this.


You write about her like she's the enemy. You don't sound like you've made an honest attempt to understand her perspective, instead, trying to manipulate her with flowery language. She's going to be frustrated and angry as long this is all about you and about how you feel. You haven't once mentioned how your own flesh and blood feels or what she thinks. You don't understand a thing about her and you haven't made any attempts to understand. It's astounding that you don't understand why she wouldn't want to talk to you right now. 



Oakwillow said:


> For example: I told her about the post traumatic stress that I experience from abuse. I told her that my therapist had instructed me to keep all things that trigger that post traumatic abuse, out of my life, like the abusers themselves. I have created safe worlds, in real life and online, without the abusers or anything else that would trigger the post traumatic stress.
> 
> I had told my daughter throughout her life what these abusers did to me and how badly it affected me. I thought if I just reminded her of that, then she would of course un-friend the person, because I was more important to her.


So, she's heard this line her *entire life*. That has got to sound like a broken record. Your child is supposed to organize her life around what's best for the parent? If my child friended my abuser online, I'd be hurt but I certainly wouldn't get on her case and insist why she shouldn't do that. I'd take the time to find out WHY. You haven't asked WHY. 



Oakwillow said:


> (These abusers have turned many family members against me to the point that they have cut me out of their lives, thinking I am a bad person because the abusers tell them things were my fault, and I was to blame. Not so, I was an innocent child who was attacked. So the danger exists that if these people are exposed to my daughter they will try to turn her against me also.)
> 
> Her reply was putting me down for having *"so many enemies and making so many enemies"* and to tell me that she was above such things and didn't ostracize people when they made mistakes.


This doesn't sound like a one off issue. This sounds like she has had numerous experiences with you having enemies. 



Oakwillow said:


> I don't think she understand what it is to be abused, and have an enemy thrust upon you; that you don't go out and make an enemy just because you are an immature person and don't deal well with them.


Oh, I'd lay odds she does. What you're selling isn't adding up. You sound controlling, manipulative and insensitive to your daughter. 



Oakwillow said:


> She then told me that I had hurt her deeply over some incidents in her youth, totally unrelated to the conversation.


Clearly they're not unrelated because she doesn't trust you. Whatever these events were, she doesn't trust you. That's extremely relevant. 



Oakwillow said:


> These incidents were events that I did not intend to hurt her, she just misunderstood what was happening and never asked for clarification. I thought if I explained the misunderstanding she would see that she wasn't harmed and would feel better. She didn't even listen or reply to these explanations.


Where's your sensitivity to her pain? When someone hurt you, would you want to hear how it wasn't their fault because they didn't intend to hurt you and that you just misunderstood? Are you serious? 



Oakwillow said:


> It is confusing and hurtful. Every time I try to reply with logic, she ignores what I say. When I try to tell her what I feel, she discounts it.


Thinkers have feelings too. Just because she isn't crying in front of you doesn't mean that you haven't hurt her deeply. You keep wanting to tell her how you feel, thaaat's not helping. I think she has had just about all she can take of hearing about how you feel. 


Anyway, I'm not an expert on ESTJ's, but I can tell you what my perspective is on your story. I have an incomplete picture. I honestly feel a little nauseous reading your story and I don't particularly want to hear anymore about it. I'm suddenly really glad to have an ISTP mother. She'd never deal with me like that and I'd never put my daughter through that.


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## mony (Jun 18, 2014)

@Oakwillow

It's obvious that you would like to amend this relationship and I'm sure she does too. To start, I would ask if both of you could have space rather than assuming the relationship is over. Thinkers are more comfortable processing emotions slowly over time while feelers want to quickly resolve the issue. 

As for the abuser, find some way on Facebook to block them. You should trust your daughter to still care for you even after meeting these people but be ready to protect her when she needs you. If you don't, she'll start to believe them over you. So just have a glass of lemonade, calm down, and continue to trust/love your daughter. Be the mature adult here and know that she will come back to you when she needs your help.

Also, if she really is an adult, she should have outgrown this type of behavior... Adults don't really have the time, effort or energy to think in such a manner. It's better to make amends then dwell on trivial arguments.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

@monemi Yeah. I'm in agreement with what you said basically.


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## Oakwillow (Sep 15, 2014)

Mony your remarks were very helpful, thank you. And you are right, she should have outgrown this type of behavior. It is not typical for her.

Since this happened I found out that there is a good chance that there is some postpartum depression on her part.

She has had this postpartum depression before and had similar behavior during it. Knowing that is the case, I will lovingly wait for her to heal and knowing that Thinkers need time to process, as you say, I will curb my Feeling instincts to resolve this fast.

For the others who responded, thanks for the time you took. I will review and try to learn from your comments and insights. I would say that there are other aspects that you aren't aware of such as my sensitivity to her pain, and my trying to help her, that I did not take the time to include in my post.


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## Eckis (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm really sorry you have to go through this, Oakwillow. I may not have the best advice but I will share my insight on this situation...

Perhaps consider that your enemies and your daughter's enemies are not the same. I know how difficult that can be, that our loved ones don't always see things the same way, but she may not view the person as someone who had hurt her or that deserves to be cut out from -- of all things -- Facebook. I'm not certain, but it doesn't sound like she and the person are particularly close... they're just Facebook friends. Seeing that may upset you, but remember that being friends with someone on Facebook says nothing about how much you like a person or if you actually are friends. I encourage you to accept that, because I don't think your daughter set out to hurt you when she added that person as a friend.

It sounds like you two have trouble communicating. . and no wonder, you're total opposites! An INFP and an ESTJ... yikes, that's a recipe for miscommunication. I don't think she doesn't "get" your feelings, because Thinkers are plenty capable of sympathizing... she probably just doesn't see this as a big deal or a slight on you at all. She's probably not _deliberately_ ignoring your feelings, so I encourage you to try and look through this at her perspective (likely she thinks you're overreacting, but that's just my guess from what you've shared).

I hope this comes to a resolution because I hate seeing parents and children divided. Don't let something like this ruin your relationship. I encourage you, if you can, to move past it.


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## AllyKat (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm ISTJ rather than ESTJ but I'm seeing pain on both sides of the argument here. 



Oakwillow said:


> This set off my alarms and I gently explained to her what this meant to me. Also to me, this is a huge breach of family and loyalty etiquette: you don't go friend your family member's enemy. Am I wrong about this?


Generally, no. But I would question why she chose to do this in the first place - there could be any number of reasons why she made this decision in the first place (is she trying to build bridges for example? Fix your hurt of the past for example? Or is she just trying to understand where you're coming from on the issue - to make her a better mother perhaps? Or to understand you better?). I agree on the breach of family and loyalty aspect, but equally, I wouldn't feel comfortable starting a thread like this if it was my daughter. People have different standards and what one person does for the right reasons, often seems like the wrong reasons to another. We judge others by their actions but ourselves by our intentions so the saying goes. In short, I'm making the assumption you both took those decisions for the good of each other; not because either of you wanted to spite the other. 



Oakwillow said:


> I diplomatically praised her and reassured her of my love for her, then told her how this caused problems for me. She ignored my facts and replied with attacks on me.


This is something I, personally, really really dislike. It completely gets on my wick and I find it two-faced and deliberately hurtful. Even if I can see, in this situation, you are trying to do the right thing. It comes across as if you are doing two things here: a) speaking to her like a child and b) trying to soften her up before you go in with the knife. It's a "I love you even though you're a terrible person". To me, that's the worst thing anyone can say to you. I know you think thinkers don't "feel things deeply" but believe me, you say something like that to me, as someone I care about, my heart is breaking inside, even if you can't see it. And when faced with that kind of internal emotion, logic can collapse and anger can take over. To me, her reaction seems completely predictable. 



Oakwillow said:


> My daughter cares so little for me that she would do something that hurts me, even after she was told how it affected me.


If she really cared so little for you why does she 'attack' you? People attack because they feel hurt and threatened. If you don't care about someone, you don't even bother to attack them. You're her mother - she must think something otherwise she wouldn't have any interest in the abuser whatsoever. 

Besides, she already 'committed the crime' (adding the abuser on facebook) before knowing it hurt you. Deleting them doesn't change that. In fact, deleting them is probably more likely to bring the abuser back into your life because it's potentially one of these situations where they say "oh, why have you deleted me?" and if she was honest it comes back to you. Maybe it's safer on your part that she just leaves the abuser on her facebook for a while without interaction? You can't really give an answer without knowing why she chose to add them in the first place. 




Oakwillow said:


> I had told my daughter throughout her life what these abusers did to me and how badly it affected me. I thought if I just reminded her of that, then she would of course un-friend the person, because I was more important to her.


See above. I would be concerned that deleting the person would create more backlash and upheaval than actually leaving them as a name on the list and ignoring them. She can delete them in a few months and it's likely they'll have forgotten. I don't see that it says you're not important or less important to her. 



Oakwillow said:


> I don't think she understand what it is to be abused, and have an enemy thrust upon you; that you don't go out and make an enemy just because you are an immature person and don't deal well with them.


I don't think it's that. I think it's as much that you don't read the situation the way she does. I'm not quite sure how close ISTJs and ESTJs are on this, but, I know I can't leave a problem without trying to fix it. I recognise from your post that you still suffer from this abuse. In her situation, I'd want to put that right. I'm not seeing anything in what little you've explained that suggests otherwise. Yes, she's getting hurt and angry. You both are. That's never a reason to suggest someone doesn't care in my experience. I mean you're hurt and angry because you care for her. Why wouldn't she be? 



Oakwillow said:


> She then told me that I had hurt her deeply over some incidents in her youth, totally unrelated to the conversation. These incidents were events that I did not intend to hurt her, she just misunderstood what was happening and never asked for clarification. I thought if I explained the misunderstanding she would see that she wasn't harmed and would feel better. She didn't even listen or reply to these explanations.


I think this is just her way of relating to your hurt. We all do things that hurt those we love. We aren't always aware how much they hurt them. You did things to hurt her which you didn't realise. She added the abuser on facebook and didn't realise it would hurt you the way it did. She feels hurt as much as you do. It sounds like you didn't hear the point she was trying to make. 


I'd say in your position, I would want to understand why she did what she did, and then worry about how it made me feel and how right/wrong she was. She's struggling in response because you've done it the opposite way around. You've recognised your hurt before the whys and acted on the hurt without thinking of the alternatives. I wonder if you could calmly ask her to delete this person and explain that this would make you feel less stressed about the situation and perhaps ask her her reasons for keeping them as a friend. Shouting at each other and getting angry is never going to fix anything, you will both end up getting angry and upset and start resenting each other. You'll resort to your differences to protect yourselves and get further apart. 

I know you want to fix this. Eckis in the post above put it better than I can, but don't give up on her and work to put this right. And even if she is in contact with this person, don't let it get between the two of you. She might want to give this person a chance to give their side, but you're her mother - don't think that doesn't count for something.


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## bri5989 (Sep 2, 2013)

I think it's interesting that most of the replies have discounted or rejected the idea that the daughter is fundamentally the one at fault for taking the action she did. 

It's not only someone close to her, but her own mother, whose feelings she disregarded when she accepted this person. Obviously, she knew that this person had been abusive. ESTJ or not, this is inconsiderate, and somewhat disloyal. 

The problem seems to be that the daughter is simply not yet mature enough to bring herself to apologize.. when you hurt someone's feelings, you apologize for hurting feelings, EVEN IF you think your action was justified. That's emotional maturity. You don't rationalize it by bringing up things that the other person did to you years ago. That's just my 2 cents.


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## Sangoire (Oct 9, 2013)

@Oakwillow I sympathise with your situation... you must feel as though one of your Ideals (loyalty) has been crossed... and I speak from experience when I say that this is an incredibly painful thing for an INFP to bear...

The only thing I wanted to add is to please not fall into the trap of playing the victim with an ESTJ... in my experience they hate it and see it as nothing more than emotional manipulation. Show her that you are capable of rising above your pain... show her that she means more to you than the pain these abusers inflicted on you... and don't make her feel like you are doing this for her... let her see that you are doing it for your own well being...

Much *hugs* and many wishes for a stronger you


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

bri5989 said:


> I think it's interesting that most of the replies have discounted or rejected the idea that the daughter is fundamentally the one at fault for taking the action she did.
> 
> It's not only someone close to her, but her own mother, whose feelings she disregarded when she accepted this person. Obviously, she knew that this person had been abusive. ESTJ or not, this is inconsiderate, and somewhat disloyal.
> 
> The problem seems to be that the daughter is simply not yet mature enough to bring herself to apologize.. when you hurt someone's feelings, you apologize for hurting feelings, EVEN IF you think your action was justified. That's emotional maturity. You don't rationalize it by bringing up things that the other person did to you years ago. That's just my 2 cents.


You're jumping to conclusions about why she did it. We don't know why she did it and that's an extremely important consideration. It's not black or white. It's gray. WHY WHY WHY I don't just conclude someone was inconsiderate and disloyal. I take the time to find out WHY they would do that. If it was someone not as close, it wouldn't matter. But if my daughter did that, she must have thought she had a good reason to.


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## Oakwillow (Sep 15, 2014)

Thanks Everyone, you've given me some valuable insights and some things I didn't know. They will be helpful.
I appreciate the good wishes and support. It will help me while I mend this with my daughter.


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## aloneinmusic (Mar 1, 2014)

Don't wish to start the topic up again, just wanted to add my opinion to the situation. It seems like your daughter knew she'd done wrong and she felt bad about it, and she's covered it up by attacking. I know it's not ideal, and ESTJ is my conflict type so I could be very wrong, but that's just how it comes across. Sometimes it's easier to deal with if you attack back at someone when you know you've hurt someone, this is probably her way of coping with it.


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## Aizar (Mar 21, 2011)

Well, straight out and blunt, you can't control who someone else decides to friend (whether on Facebook or more literally). And nor should you, for it's her life, not yours.

I've had friends with PTSD and have some of the traits of it myself...and I know exactly how much of a kick in the gut it can be for one of your past abusers to be invited back into your social circle as if nothing ever happened. And then be attacked for being selfish or controlling or what have you when you try to express how this makes you feel. It_ sucks_.

But the fact still stands, it's those peoples' choice to associate with them, not yours. If you think they are in true danger, you can warn them, and if it's physical danger, even call the police, but beyond that, there's just not much you can do.

I'd also ask yourself what's triggering you here...it sounds like you're afraid the abuser might manipulate your daughter away from you. To be painfully honest, though, it sounds like what's pushing your daughter away in this situation, if anything, is your own actions. As she said, this has happened before and has caused problems in your relationship with her. The only common denominator between all those previous encounters and this one is you, hun. If you want meaningful change to occur, look to that common denominator. Why DOES this continue to happen to you? What are you doing or not doing? Not them--YOU.

I offer this as advice not because I'm trying to blame you or make you out as the bad guy. (I think you'll find your actions are not nearly as damning as your anxieties may make them out to be.) I'm saying this because you are the one in control of your life, you alone are the one who has the key and can solve this. When you decide to make it about them, you effectively hand away your key and thus any possibility of unlocking the door that keeps you from your own inner peace. Keep the key, do the introspection and make the changes necessary. It's not easy, but I think you'll find that this kind of pain and the resulting havoc will occur a lot less often after facing your demons.

Not to say these people aren't responsible for being abusive jerks in their own right. But we have two choices when it comes to nasty people--accept their actions...or make a change in our own behavior to protect ourselves. (Realistically and morally speaking, trying to change the other person doesn't stick.)


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## Laeona (Feb 20, 2012)

It's time to start unlocking everything in here.

The original issue was that your abusers became part of your social circle when you didn't want them to be. But you stunned me when you threw that out as not important anymore, because now your daughter's disloyalty became the bigger issue. It's time to confront both of them.

1. Your abusers. All of us deal with abuse in different ways. 

My sister and I share the same mom who abused us throughout our childhood. I've chosen not to associate with my mom, while my sister keeps in such close contact that she lets her children visit their grandmother. I think my sister is playing with fire, and my sister has repeatedly tried to get us to "be a family". But I've come to a place where I realize, for my sister, this is how she deals with it: head-on. She has decided that for her, she wants things a certain way, and by crickey, she's going to make it happen that way. Instead of my mom being the manipulator now, my sister plays the game better and manipulates my mom. In a way, it's ironically funny.

But I know that wouldn't work for me. I don't have a desire or need to have my mom in my world. And as she is destructive, I don't really want to have to play the game to keep my mom in her place. The arrangement that my sister has set up would exhaust me, and I've decided to just avoid it altogether.

You have decided, that for you, you want to avoid your abusers. And that is fine in my book. You are within your right to decide how you want to confront what you went through, and frankly, if there were people that in the past, did not have your well-being in mind, and they continue to be that way, then they really have no right to be in your life. Kick them out. They've earned the boot.

What you can't do though, is decide for other people how they will deal with it. You can know that your abusers are horrible, despicable people that should not be anywhere near people you love...but there is little you can do if people you love choose otherwise. Let them make their own choices. What might not work for you, may work for them. Your abusers do not have the same power over other people that they held on you. You were a child. Your daughter is not. Remember that.

By trying to make everyone around you cut off contact with your abusers, you end up cutting yourself off from them. You make a line on the ground that people have to cross one way or the other: are they on your side, or your abusers side. If you force that kind of decision, you make enemies of people. If you let other people decide for themselves, you keep friends.

That being said, if you still want your abusers out of your circle, find ways to make that happen. There are always ways to do that, and it doesn't require having your daughter to "unfriend" them. You control your own sanity, not your daughter. You control your own life, embrace that. But don't try to control your daughter's life. As an INFP, I know you'll resonate with that.

2. Disloyalty. Yeah, having friends and family seemingly embrace the people we can't stand is a one-two punch that puts us on the ground. Why would she do that? Why would she continue to do that even after you told her how much it hurts you? Why would she put you in such a stressful position in the first place?

Know what? Only one person can answer that. Your daughter. But it sounds like the initial confrontation was fraught with a lot of hurt emotions, on both sides. That does not leave a whole lot of room for one of the most important ingredients in resolving confrontations: being able to see the other person's side. It doesn't allow us to be very open-minded to possibilities or logical compromises or differences of opinion.

There was some interesting insight from an ISTJ and an ESTP in here. Your ESTJ daughter brought up past hurts that you had done, and I too, was sitting there scratching my head going, "Why is she bringing that stuff up now?". The ISTJ and ESTP cleared that up: your daughter is trying to make the point that both you and her do things that cause unintentional hurt. That was epicly eye-opening for me.

Your daughter didn't do this to hurt you. So why, when she learned it had hurt you, did she not fix it? Because to her, there isn't anything to fix. See my above statements in #1 if you are still unsure why that is. She has a right to make a choice, and it really isn't your business to make her change that. The only thing you can do is make decisions for your own life. So do damage control on your own Facebook page. That's where your control lies.

Try to put it into perspective: you've hinged your relationship with your daughter on a Facebook friending. Kind of funny huh? I mean, I know loyalty is really really big for us INFPs, but this is a small thing, compared to say, inviting them to dinner, or becoming bbf. So I have to ask: is this the straw that is breaking the camel's back? Because if it is, and there have been much bigger incidences that are revolving around loyalty in this relationship, then that needs to be addressed. But if this is it, this is all we're going on, then this is one of those that doesn't have to be a big deal anymore. Count it as one of those unexpected ninja blades that occasionally come out of nowhere, and recover from it. It was only a flesh wound, not a mortal cut.

And realize that just because someone seems to court the enemy, it doesn't mean they've lost all loyalty for you.


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## bri5989 (Sep 2, 2013)

monemi said:


> But if my daughter did that, she must have thought she had a good reason to.


lol ok..that's really letting someone off the hook. that's like getting punched by someone and saying, well I can't get upset because maybe they had a good reason. Regardless of the reason, they could've simply gone about it in a way that wasn't blatantly hurtful. 

I'm not saying she shouldn't ask "why," but realistically, there probably isn't an amazing reason..she probably just wasn't thinking about/wasn't concerned about her mother's feelings. And when you responded:








Originally Posted by *Oakwillow* 
She thinks, and runs over people's feelings without seeming to notice.
That's difficult enough to try and have a good relationship, but now she's done this.



_"She's your daughter. In all this time, you haven't learned coping skills and figured out a way to communicate effectively with her?" _

Technically, that's victim blaming. She claimed that her daughter wasn't treating her well, & you immediately assumed that _she_ was an ineffective communicator. Not trying to start an argument, I just think it's a big assumption.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

bri5989 said:


> lol ok..that's really letting someone off the hook. that's like getting punched by someone and saying, well I can't get upset because maybe they had a good reason. Regardless of the reason, they could've simply gone about it in a way that wasn't blatantly hurtful.
> 
> I'm not saying she shouldn't ask "why," but realistically, there probably isn't an amazing reason..she probably just wasn't thinking about/wasn't concerned about her mother's feelings.


I haven't let anyone off the hook. Until I understand what they did and why they did it, until I'm dealing with all of the facts, I'm not going to flip out on them. I'm not going to have an emotional meltdown over something I don't understand.


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## skyrimorchestra (Jul 23, 2014)

monemi said:


> And she doesn't feel things deeply?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


T h i s. All of this. Ever heard of emotional incest? Cuz yeah. There's a line, a big one, that shouldn't be crossed between parents and kids. Going on and on at length to your kid about how abused you were _is not healthy_ period. You're in charge of your own safe spaces. Your daughter isn't making Facebook unsafe for you. If it's unsafe, get the hell out. 

You have choices, you are an adult, and you have control now. Your daughter is also an adult, who also gets to make her own decisions. "Gently" berating her about how her adult, independent decisions "seriously hurt" you is just ridiculous. 

You are her mother. Get over it. Kids are supposed to dent you, kids don't know shit. You teach them what they know. And she knows that she isn't into the whole flowery emotional bullshit, so cut it off, stop the guilt, and be straight. "I feel hurt so I'm telling you all about how hurt I am because you have to tailor your decisions about your friends and life to me." 

Therapy tends to glorify _abuse_ into this like, buzzword, that as soon as you mention it, everyone has to tiptoe around and shit and people forget the very human elements to the whole thing. And I get it, I was in the same place, _oh god she's talking to my abuser now I'm triggered which I know is Bad because Abuse! _

It's not her problem. It's yours. Handle it.


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## Sangmu (Feb 18, 2014)

You can block these people and still have your daughter as a friend on Facebook. Blocking means they wont be able to see you or and you wont be able to see them.

If the abuse was sexual assault or of a particularly heinous physical nature than your daughter is meeesssed up. I'm not minimizing emotional abuse because, at the end of the day, all abuse is perpetrated with the intent of wounding emotionally and making a person powerless.

It's just that severe physical abuse and sexual assault are very clear lines that even the daftest and unintuitive people should see are wrong and unforgivable. Note: I don't mean intuitive in terms of Myers-Briggs personality function in this context.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

WhateverLolaWants said:


> If the abuse was sexual assault or of a particularly heinous physical nature than your daughter is meeesssed up.


Really? I've dealt with people who were so messed up and lied so much and fell back on crying 'abuse' and manipulated and used guilt and flowery words that I lost all empathy because who the fuck knows what the truth is. I lost all faith in them. Those people can cry abuse and use nice words with me all they want but I don't believe a word out of their mouths. I can't be loyal to someone that I've lost all faith in.


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## Sangmu (Feb 18, 2014)

monemi said:


> Really? I've dealt with people who were so messed up and lied so much and fell back on crying 'abuse' and manipulated and used guilt and flowery words that I lost all empathy because who the fuck knows what the truth is. I lost all faith in them. Those people can cry abuse and use nice words with me all they want but I don't believe a word out of their mouths. I can't be loyal to someone that I've lost all faith in.


Personally, I'd never "friend" a family member that ever beat or sexually assaulted my own mother. No matter how much or little my mom and I get along.

If the daughter feels her mom is lying, that's another thing. That's also something you're just speculating.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

WhateverLolaWants said:


> Personally, I'd never "friend" a family member that ever beat or sexually assaulted my own mother. No matter how much or little my mom and I get along.
> 
> If the daughter feels her mom is lying, that's another thing. That's also something you're just speculating.


Assuming that you had faith in your mother. OP wanted our perspectives. My perspective is that there are many reasons why someone would FB friend a person their mother said abused them. _You_ presumed that her daughter was disloyal. Many INFP's presume the daughter is guilty. But you don't know that the mother is innocent. I can't imagine just randomly FB friending someone my mother claims abused her unless I didn't trust her. To top it off, OP said her daughter referred to a story where she hurt her daughter. Which points to a lack of trust. I'm a very loyal person to people I trust. I take pride in the fact that I'm a loyal person. But I'm not going to tip toe around someone I can't trust. 

I see INFP's on here are very quick to come to the mother's rescue but they don't know the daughter's side of the story at all. I highly doubt she did that for no reason.


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## Sangmu (Feb 18, 2014)

monemi said:


> Assuming that you had faith in your mother. OP wanted our perspectives. My perspective is that there are many reasons why someone would FB friend a person their mother said abused them. _You_ presumed that her daughter was disloyal. Many INFP's presume the daughter is guilty. But you don't know that the mother is innocent. I can't imagine just randomly FB friending someone my mother claims abused her unless I didn't trust her. To top it off, OP said her daughter referred to a story where she hurt her daughter. Which points to a lack of trust. I'm a very loyal person to people I trust. I take pride in the fact that I'm a loyal person. But I'm not going to tip toe around someone I can't trust.
> 
> I see INFP's on here are very quick to come to the mother's rescue but they don't know the daughter's side of the story at all. I highly doubt she did that for no reason.


I did not presume that. I said if her daughter _believes_ her mother but is *still* willing to friend a person is a pedophile or particularly heinous - she's messed up.

I don't associate with child molesters or monsters as a general rule. Even if they're "reformed".

And you obviously don't know me as I'm pretty hard on INFPs. ESTJs are one of my favorite types and I do some serious butt licking in regards to praising their moral traits. However, like any type, there's messed up ones.


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## Stasis (May 6, 2014)

Here is the deal, not all of your relationships with your family members will be healthy. This means that the relationship you have with your daughter may have to drastically change. You have to worry about your own health, as your daughter is a full grown woman and has clearly demonstrated the ability to make her own decisions. 

You say she has not considered your side and is requesting to end your relationship temporarily because of a disagreement. Does that sound healthy to you? I recommend that you give her the space she is asking for but do not relent on your desire to have your relationship grow and mend. If she cannot conduct herself in a healthy manner, then put distance between you again. You went to her seeking understanding and instead she attacked you. What more could you have done?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

WhateverLolaWants said:


> I did not presume that. I said if her daughter _believes_ her mother but is *still* willing to friend a person is a pedophile or particularly heinous - she's messed up.
> 
> I don't associate with child molesters or monsters as a general rule. Even if they're "reformed".
> 
> And you obviously don't know me as I'm pretty hard on INFPs. ESTJs are one of my favorite types and I do some serious butt licking in regards to praising their moral traits. However, like any type, there's messed up ones.


If her daughter was FB friending a known pedophile, the odds are slim to none that OP was fairly telling the whole story or knows the whole story.


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## Sangmu (Feb 18, 2014)

monemi said:


> If her daughter was FB friending a known pedophile, the odds are slim to none that OP was fairly telling the whole story or knows the whole story.


Some families and communities do a very good job of hiding and denying incest and sexual violence toward children. If you have never had to witness or experience this phenomena and get to say:

"It's 2014. That doesn't happen anymore. The child always tells _right_ away, then police break down the door and take the bad person away! And the whole family supports the child. If they don't, the police come back and place the child with a loving foster home. "

I am genuinely happy for you! Ignorance is bliss. That aphorism exists for a reason.

Again, what I said was: *If* the abuse involved sexual assault or heinous physical abuse, and the daughter believes her mother, she's messed up to "friend" the supposed abuser. If the abuse was more grey as opposed to black-and-white, she should simply block her family of origin on FB and accept her daughters choice.

Not controversial commentary and I can't argue with someone who thinks it is.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

WhateverLolaWants said:


> Some families and communities do a very good job of hiding and denying incest and sexual violence toward children. If you have never had to witness or experience this phenomena and get to say:
> 
> "It's 2014. That doesn't happen anymore. The child always tells _right_ away, then police break down the door and take the bad person away! And the whole family supports the child. If they don't, the police come back and place the child with a loving foster home. "
> 
> ...


Are you willfully ignoring my point or just blissfully oblivious?


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## Laeona (Feb 20, 2012)

@WhateverLolaWants and @monemi

Quite the lively discussion the two of you seem to be enjoying, but your posts are veering to more of a theoretical discussion and less of practical advice. Not to say theoretical isn't great for making us think, but this may not be the best place for that right now, or the most helpful. 

Questioning the integrity of either the mother or daughter is counterproductive, too, don't you think?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Laeona said:


> @_WhateverLolaWants_ and @_monemi_
> 
> Quite the lively discussion the two of you seem to be enjoying, but your posts are veering to more of a theoretical discussion and less of practical advice. Not to say theoretical isn't great for making us think, but this may not be the best place for that right now, or the most helpful.
> 
> Questioning the integrity of either the mother or daughter is counterproductive, too, don't you think?


It's possibly relevant to the mother. She knows more about the situation and whether this is possibly why her daughter responded the way she did. If her thoughts are similar to WhateverLolaWants, maybe she needs to hear this.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

monemi said:


> I see INFP's on here are very quick to come to the mother's rescue but they don't know the daughter's side of the story at all. I highly doubt she did that for no reason.


Geez. I'm almost feeling bad for siding against the NFP club and going with the dirty ST on this one. But not really, gotta go with what feels right. This post specifically gets the point across, I don't care what the OP said, people - _especially_ _thinking dominants_ - don't do the things that she's described as doing for no reason at all.


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## AllyKat (Jan 24, 2014)

Oakwillow said:


> Thanks Everyone, you've given me some valuable insights and some things I didn't know. They will be helpful.
> I appreciate the good wishes and support. It will help me while I mend this with my daughter.


I'm curious to know if the OP has found some resolution or progress on this matter with her daughter. 

Hopefully things have improved for you both.


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## fromthesealove (Oct 3, 2014)

From an INFJ point of view, I think both parties have fault in this, but it all comes with miscommunication. I guarantee your daughter had some sort of logical reason for her doing so in the first place, it may even have been (in her mind) to benefit you, but I don't think she got a chance or knows how to explain this. On the other hand, I also see how you would immediately feel hurt by her actions ( I definitely would) and because of what happened and because of your personality type the first immediate reaction is almost panic, because as you said you do not want to lose your daughter and your enemies could turn her against you, and that sets off an immeidiate panic mode and you will do ANYTHING and say ANYTHING to keep it from happening. Very natural. I would calm down, listen to her side, and go from there and try and not think to much of what COULD happen, but explain your fears to your daughter.


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## littlebirdx (May 23, 2014)

monemi said:


> Anyway, I'm not an expert on ESTJ's, but I can tell you what my perspective is on your story. I have an incomplete picture.


I was pretty shocked at your interpretation of the OP's actions. Though upon seeking to look at what you said objectively, I can see where you're coming from. 

Something to consider is that she may not have seen how she was causing pain she never intended to cause. As an INFP with two very close, long-standing ESTJ friends as well as one fairly close ISTJ friend, I can readily say *it has taken a lot of work for us to understand each other on a deeper level and accommodate to the others' needs.*

I've had to have many conversations with these friends over time to fix misunderstandings in communication - to realize when I'm being irrational and manipulative, and to help them understand how or why they can hurt my admittedly oversensitive feelings. 

What you may be seeing as her "intentionally being emotionally manipulative" is actually her trying to use INFP's tertiary and inferior functions, Si and Te, to explain how she is experiencing her dominant functions, Fi and Ne, in a way that her daughter can understand. What she may have been expecting from her daughter in return was an understanding of her feelings and why it's a problem for her. She's confused as to why she got the response she did because she truly did want to appeal to her daughter's dominant function in a positive way. 



monemi said:


> And she doesn't feel things deeply?
> 
> You presume she didn't think about what effect her actions would have you.... You keep saying you're trying to give gentle explanations that sound an awful like emotional manipulating her and trying to control her.


My guess is that she knows her daughter has deep feelings - it's her own daughter, c'mon - but that they are not readily on the surface as in a primary function way. That's probably what she meant to express, *and that's also why she tried to state the issue so lightly * - she knows her daughter feels deeply on some level *and she's trying to be sensitive to that, as per a typical INFP.* But because an ESTJ's functional stacking is the reverse order - Te Si Ne Fi - it comes off as manipulative, childish and condescending to the ESTJ instead of logical, diplomatic, and kind. 

When an INFP tries to explain themselves to... well, any ST type, there's a high risk of coming off as insensitive, self-absorbed, condescending, childish, passive-aggressive, and emotionally manipulative. And some INFPs can rightly be called so. *But for any INFP that's relatively healthy, this is never what we intend.* If I were in a similar situation with an STJ I was close to and they responded like that, I would be deeply hurt as well, but after some time try to understand why they responded that way and what they were feeling, even if I couldn't see it initially. 



AllyKat said:


> I'm ISTJ rather than ESTJ but I'm seeing pain on both sides of the argument here.
> 
> ...To me, her reaction seems completely predictable.


I think your entire response was spot on to what the OP's daughter might have been thinking at the moment of the argument. (See my above response.)

I agree; I see hurt and poor communication on both sides.



Oakwillow said:


> I don't understand and I am very hurt. *It's like we are speaking two different languages and not making sense at all.*


When there's conflict between me and one ESTJ friend in particular, this is exactly what it's like. I'm deeply hurt, and what she's saying to me sounds like it's from another planet. But to her the conflict is usually one-sided, so she's uncomfortable and soon frustrated. She perceives me trying to address an issue as being condescending, whiney and manipulative, while I view her response as similarly patronizing and coldly dismissive. 

The best thing I can tell you to do is learn when to let an issue go in order to keep a relationship right. And with this, it sounds like you might just have to let it drop. It may be a long, hard process because it's so close to your heart, but I'm sure you know that keeping your daughter in your life will be well worth it in the end. 

If you think it would be good to talk out what happened during the argument and resolve that part, here's a few things that might help you navigate through that conversation. 
- Try to recognize how you're being perceived and why *without using your emotions.* (It's hard, but it can be done.) Then after the anger has blown over, ask her if you two can talk things out. 
- Clearly ask about what you think she's perceiving. Ex., "Last time we talked about abc, I think I came off as xyz to you. Is that true?" Listen. 
- If yes, apologize clearly for doing so. "I apologize - that's not what I intended." If no, listen to her and try to objectively see what she's seeing. Ask her to explain what she means if you don't get it. Apologize for whatever it was.
- Assuming that goes well, you could clearly and calmly say, "I was hurt by the way you responded." If she needs clarification, provide it. Ex., tone of voice, "I felt like you dismissed my thoughts/didn't care." She may or may not apologize. 
- This is the point where you will be able to tell if you should just let the initial issue drop or if it's okay to proceed with discussing it. 
- If she sees the issue as resolved, let it drop and work it out on your own or with someone you trust (your therapist?). Know that doing this is not being a doormat. It also doesn't make your feelings invalid. It's taking responsibility for your feelings and your recovery. 

And if I am wrong in my understanding of the situation, please correct me. I sincerely hope this helps and that you can work things out with your daughter. Take care.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

littlebirdx said:


> I was pretty shocked at your interpretation of the OP's actions. Though upon seeking to look at what you said objectively, I can see where you're coming from.
> 
> Something to consider is that she may not have seen how she was causing pain she never intended to cause. As an INFP with two very close, long-standing ESTJ friends as well as one fairly close ISTJ friend, I can readily say *it has taken a lot of work for us to understand each other on a deeper level and accommodate to the others' needs.*
> 
> ...


I think the type of relationship plays into this greatly. If it was a mutual friend, I expect the same amount of effort to go into finding middle ground from both sides of the relationship. When I'm looking at a parent child relationship, adult or not, adult children are much less likely to put as much into finding a middle ground as a parent. My parents go to great lengths to understand me. I go to great lengths to understand my children. I don't expect my children to learn how to understand me. It's been my job to learn to understand them.

Brutal honesty will get you a lot further with an EST. I want the truth. You might not like my reaction to the truth. But my reaction to someone dancing around it, implying but not actually saying what is meant and "manage" me is going to get an even worse reaction. I give other people enough respect to give them the uncompromising truth when they need to hear it. I demand the same in return. If she'd just been honest and told her daughter in a straightforward manner what the issue was, she likely would have gotten an apology and discussion. 

I realize you guys think you're being nice. But if the person on the receiving end is getting hurt whenever you're trying to control their reactions, it's really not.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Hmm. What were the incidents in her youth that she felt you had greatly hurt her? The misunderstandings.


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