# Getting better so thought I'd try again



## Narrator (Oct 11, 2009)

tine said:


> Thanks for the essay (I wont quote it because of space XD)
> Okay, from reading that, I can see people see me differently from how I mean to be. It also helped me realise that I tend to infer meaning onto words/actions based on my own values, rather than what the person was actually saying/doing.


Interesting, I hadn't though of this , it shall be worked into my world view. When you say values, what do you mean?





tine said:


> An example of this is my lecturer was kind of rude to me a couple of times, so I've taken it to mean he doesn't like me and think I'm a bad student (whereas Ti dom laurie17 saw it as him being a bad teacher, not having a vendetta against me, haha).


Would you say she was not also infering her own 'values' (inverted commas because I'm not entirely sure what you mean yet) on the world?
Ahh, hmm, mulling this over, do you mean self-image? ie Your self-image colours the rest of the world?

If so/maybe if not, can you give other/another example(s), but in more positive/neutral situations?



tine said:


> I really don't see myself as an Se dom (I don't tend to act, more think about things. I dwell a lot and when I do act it's when I have a good idea of what will happen - I hate acting and not knowing which doesn't seem Se dom or even Ne dom).
> An example is I would happily talk to a lecturer I'd emailed a few times and knew where I stood with him, but I wouldn't talk to a lecturer who was unpredictable and freaked me out or I didn't like.
> So, I guess that post and some introspection has led me to believe I don't use Se/Ne dom, probably use Fi dom or aux, and have no idea about Fe.


Yay, glad you feel you're had some inspiration.


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

asmit127 said:


> Thanks @_Liminality_, an insightful essay and I agree - Fi :happy:
> 
> 
> To quote myself
> ...


_
Thanks! I'll definitely go and have a look on there  So you think an introverted function first? Like Fi?



Liminality said:



Interesting, I hadn't though of this , it shall be worked into my world view. When you say values, what do you mean?

Would you say she was not also infering her own 'values' (inverted commas because I'm not entirely sure what you mean yet) on the world?
Ahh, hmm, mulling this over, do you mean self-image? ie Your self-image colours the rest of the world?

If so/maybe if not, can you give other/another example(s), but in more positive/neutral situations?



Yay, glad you feel you're had some inspiration.

Click to expand...

Values kind of mean my own impressions and views/opinions on life etc. Things I believe in and consider daily.
Yeah, I think so, but in a more logical/detached way than mine. (mine: take it personally. Hers: view it as different possibilities).
Yeah you could say my self image is how I am and so how my world is. I always see the world as 'my world' because it's not the same as other people's, but is real and important to me. My views are my reality I guess I mean? What I believe is me and my world etc.
An example may be that I get impressions that people are such a way and don't seem them differently until they completely distort the image I have. Like with partners. I've stayed in bad relationships because I saw what 'I' thought was there, not accepting what other people said. It was 'my reality' which was different from theirs, but was 'right' in my opinion._


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

I'm going to sacrifice neat formatting for time-saving here, sorry! So I'm just going to put my comments in bold.



Liminality said:


> I see it relating to/being like the 'hiddenness' and personalness of sense of duty (versus Fe's different approach, though sense of duty can /appear/ much the same). *
> 
> We can't just look at Fe by itself at this stage, as it's too ambiguous. Fe and Fi are going for the same thing (people systems), but one tends to go by external ways of viewing these systems while the other is internal (objective vs personal) - However, as judging functions these will only decide how people prefer to relate to others.
> 
> ...


Argh, sorry it's so messy....


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay, having read both sides of this, I think I need to clarify certain things...

The debate on the coach situation:
I was sticking to my guns, but got fed up with debating with the woman who admitted she didn't believe in global warming (which made me so shocked I didn't have a reply for a moment). I was very angry she butted in on a private conversation and that she upset my friends so I wanted to let her know that and I wanted to say my views on it (that she had no right to do it).
However, I also stopped because I could feel people watching me and got self conscious. Also, people seemed uncomfortable around me which put me off (I can feel vibes from people so it made me feel awkward).

The friend argument thing:
I tend to offer advice and reassurance if I think it's needed and they deserve it. In that situation I felt betrayed and vulnerable so dismissed the reassurance I would have normally offered and that left only the advice (which may seem harsh on it's own).

So far, you've all given some good ideas, but no one's really said one thing about me I feel is me completely! Maybe my public face is very different to how I feel?
Everyone seems to see me as different. i.e. My sister saying doesn't she seem...? and a friend replying no etc.


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

tine said:


> So far, you've all given some good ideas, but no one's really said one thing about me I feel is me completely! Maybe my public face is very different to how I feel?
> Everyone seems to see me as different. i.e. My sister saying doesn't she seem...? and a friend replying no etc.


Would you like a horoscope description with a type label attached? It can be arranged, but it wont get you to the truth :happy: Think of yourself like a piece of art - everyone sees you as they see you, not necessarily as you present yourself let alone what how actually think you are. You know the "Introverts are hard to get to know" stereotype? Methinks this is where it comes from. You know yourself as your primary function, but that's introverted so what people see is filtered through your aux. 

What did you think of the inferior Te stuff?


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

asmit127 said:


> Would you like a horoscope description with a type label attached? It can be arranged, but it wont get you to the truth :happy: Think of yourself like a piece of art - everyone sees you as they see you, not necessarily as you present yourself let alone what how actually think you are. You know the "Introverts are hard to get to know" stereotype? Methinks this is where it comes from. You know yourself as your primary function, but that's introverted so what people see is filtered through your aux.
> 
> What did you think of the inferior Te stuff?


I thought it seemed fairly right! Thanks! I got kind of confused between infp and isfp though, as in how to tell them apart x.x


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

Also, I really like routine when it comes to life. I don't like doing something completely different each day (so long as I go outside and so long as I have things to do I'm fine). 
I was wondering what ISFJ and INFJ would be like especially compared to ISFP and INFP in regards to all of this?


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## Narrator (Oct 11, 2009)

I'll respond to your post someday Laurie

Looking around online

Compared with each other:

INFJ:




INFJs, a bit more mousy, 




Energy bubbling beneath the surface, 

ISFJ:




 Feel more 'central' in terms of where energy comes from (feeling of 'closer' connection between internal and external)
It won't let me post lots of videos, search around for more ISFJ videos

ISFP:








Energy (not to say the actual interior/private self) is more...out there...? As a 'block'. ISFJ feels more like several 'branches'/'bits' hitting you, and INFJ feels more 'gasseous'/'soft'/'anxiously' out there, while the ISFJ energy which is out there is covered by the 'anxiety' in the way the INFJ energy can feel covered by the 'introversion'. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is the introvert_ing_ (Not introver_sion_) of INFJs feels more evident/fragmented than that of ISFJs, rather than that their 'in there' feels 'out there' for ISFJs, not naturally 'veiled', when put out there?


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks for that!
I found it interesting seeing an extroverted-seeming INTJ and ISFP interacting!
I don't think I'm creative enough to be an ISFP based on that, but certain bits ring true (like being private and talking about things etc)
The second ISFP seemed too harsh and stuff to me, but I don't know.
Also, I do hate conflict like them, but I do face people when I have to etc.....I think?


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

tine said:


> Thanks for that!
> I found it interesting seeing an extroverted-seeming INTJ and ISFP interacting!
> I don't think I'm creative enough to be an ISFP based on that, but certain bits ring true (like being private and talking about things etc)
> The second ISFP seemed too harsh and stuff to me, but I don't know.
> Also, I do hate conflict like them, but I do face people when I have to etc.....I think?


I've not watched any of the videos but don't forget that all members of a type are not the same. Perhaps all members of a given type who grew up in the same place under a very strict religion cut off from all alternate worldviews might be, but when you factor in your life you will value different things to those ISFPs! When they talk about being creative substitute something you value, like whatever it is you get from watching films.

Your search for a perfect answer looks a lot like mine. Instead of looking at the 29 things that fitted I focused in on the one that didn't and decided I couldn't be that type. That would be not seeing the forest for the tree - one of the distinguishing features of S over N. Is that what you're doing?


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

asmit127 said:


> I've not watched any of the videos but don't forget that all members of a type are not the same. Perhaps all members of a given type who grew up in the same place under a very strict religion cut off from all alternate worldviews might be, but when you factor in your life you will value different things to those ISFPs! When they talk about being creative substitute something you value, like whatever it is you get from watching films.
> 
> Your search for a perfect answer looks a lot like mine. Instead of looking at the 29 things that fitted I focused in on the one that didn't and decided I couldn't be that type. That would be not seeing the forest for the tree - one of the distinguishing features of S over N. Is that what you're doing?


I think I'm seeing the whole thing as bigger than it is! I'm looking for something huge when mbti is actually small compared to other ideas and theories. I think it's more I'm searching in myself for something I know is there, but I can't match with mbti because mbti isn't big enough to compare with something like that in yourself. (I think, maybe I'm over-complicating it)


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

tine said:


> I think I'm seeing the whole thing as bigger than it is! I'm looking for something huge when mbti is actually small compared to other ideas and theories. I think it's more *I'm searching in myself* for something I know is there, but I can't match with mbti because mbti isn't big enough to compare with something like that in yourself. (I think, maybe I'm over-complicating it)


Oh don't worry, it's plenty big :laughing: Trouble is it defines everything yet nothing. It says how your brain works but much like all shoe production lines work the same - cut, stitch/glue and put in a box - what comes out the other end can vary from a boring work shoe to a crazy multi coloured trainer or a sparkly high heel. The end product is your actions, so comparing them to others' isn't accurate, you're all "shoe makers".

You say you dislike conflict, as most people do. If in a given situation the best way to end it is to confront someone you do it - perhaps that "ISFP" (who knows if she's mistyped...) has never come across a situation where she felt able to do that, so she wouldn't say she did it. Did you ever write the profile of a TINE, at least in your head? What is the big thing you've found that you can't correlate to MBTI?


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

asmit127 said:


> Oh don't worry, it's plenty big :laughing: Trouble is it defines everything yet nothing. It says how your brain works but much like all shoe production lines work the same - cut, stitch/glue and put in a box - what comes out the other end can vary from a boring work shoe to a crazy multi coloured trainer or a sparkly high heel. The end product is your actions, so comparing them to others' isn't accurate, you're all "shoe makers".
> 
> You say you dislike conflict, as most people do. If in a given situation the best way to end it is to confront someone you do it - perhaps that "ISFP" (who knows if she's mistyped...) has never come across a situation where she felt able to do that, so she wouldn't say she did it. Did you ever write the profile of a TINE, at least in your head? What is the big thing you've found that you can't correlate to MBTI?


Yeah, vague but not like astrology readings or fortune telling. Vague in the way people are too different to settle on with one set idea.
I kind of had a 'huh' moment of thinking about things and reading things. 
What do you think for INFJ?


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

Using this description:
Personality Junkie | INFJ


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

tine said:


> Using this description:
> Personality Junkie | INFJ


So that sounds like you... what about INTJ (still dominant Ni so similar) or ISFP (because that's what I thought from this thread)? 

You seem to be doing a lot of thinking then coming back with an idea but you don't provide any reasoning which makes it hard to help :happy:

Do you need someone to agree before you can accept your decision or would you rather they argued all the ways you don't fit INFJ by their understanding, so you can re-evaluate?


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

asmit127 said:


> So that sounds like you... what about INTJ (still dominant Ni so similar) or ISFP (because that's what I thought from this thread)?
> 
> You seem to be doing a lot of thinking then coming back with an idea but you don't provide any reasoning which makes it hard to help :happy:
> 
> Do you need someone to agree before you can accept your decision or would you rather they argued all the ways you don't fit INFJ by their understanding, so you can re-evaluate?


I remember Tine saying she gets moments of identifying with a certain type, then it'll change. This leads me to believe she may use a dominant perceiving function rather than judging. I'd guess Se or Ne.
Hmm, maybe ENTP? You could try looking at that. I still stand by the probable use of Fe somewhere in the first four functions.
Personality Junkie | ENTP
This especially stands out as Tine-like behaviour:
"ENTPs’ minds move at a frenetic pace, contributing to restlessness, anxiousness, and erratic sleeping patterns. Not only are their minds constantly scanning the environment to scope out new possibilities, but are simultaneously generating new ideas and associations. Moreover, as extraverted Intuitives, ENTPs enjoy sharing and exchanging their ideas with others."
Highlighted by the way in which Tine used to get anxious as soon as she had to make a choice of one thing over another - she appears to like to keep her options open (i.e. whenever she was doing something she planned for a day, she'd ask what I was doing to see if it was more interesting). Also, the sharing/exchanging ideas is very relevant, with Tine verbally brainstorming, even when surrounded by people (which I would never do, as I'd be too concerned about 'protecting' my inner thought-processes from the outside world).

What do you both think?


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

laurie17 said:


> I remember Tine saying she gets moments of identifying with a certain type, then it'll change. This leads me to believe she may use a dominant perceiving function rather than judging. I'd guess Se or Ne.
> Hmm, maybe ENTP? You could try looking at that. I still stand by the probable use of Fe somewhere in the first four functions.
> Personality Junkie | ENTP
> This especially stands out as Tine-like behaviour:
> ...


The same paragraph is on ENFP too!
''ENFPs read people quickly and instinctively, while naturally modifying their tone, body language, and verbiage in response. Through this instinctual reading of others, they get a sense of whether an individual is authentic and trustworthy.''
''ENFPs are also drawn to careers in ministry and counseling. They love seeing and cultivating the potential in others. While some ENFPs are content with working largely with ideas, others seek to combine this with action and adventure.''
''ENFPs’ inferior function, Introverted Sensing (Si), often confers an intrigue with history that may add to the allure of religious, political, or journalistic work.''

A lot of the ENTP and ENFP bits are very similar!


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## Pyroscope (Apr 8, 2010)

I believe @tine is a feeling type. I think she very rarely desires truth for its own sake, but rather to know that a) she can trust people or things/feelings and b) since she's a doubtful person by nature, clear answers help her feel safer that she understands what is going on around her.

I also believe that she *seems* extraverted, but isn't really. She has stated many times that she holds herself back a lot and has a friendly/joking exterior to keep the atmosphere light/relaxed and to avoid exposing the parts of her that feel nebulous and uncertain. I think that her reaction may actually point to an inferior Te response of 'I must be certain before putting this out there'. I think that Te-inferior types often unconsciously have a need to craft their outputs to the world into perfection. The issue is that they are rarely talented at that sort of approach (I certainly feel this way myself) and are paralysed by this awareness being mixed with the unshakeable feeling that they still *have* to do it to protect their ego. This is where @tine's classic response of 'I don't know myself, I'm not sure what that means' manifests in that she doesn't have a sure answer to give anyone on what she does. Her actions have some meaning behind them that she sort of feels aware of but can't give a Te-approved 'definite' version to anyone.

I also suspect that she is an Se-aux as she has very 'earthy' delights (feels at home with just 'being' in nature and being in touch with her body), but gets confused because she is very intelligent and quirky. She feels (with reasonable experience to back it up!) that she often confuses people by accident and is quite 'out there'. Intuitives stereotype as being less understood, more liable to perplex people unintentionally, but this is just that - a stereotype. Tine is very unique (in a good way, despite what she might feel! :tongue and worries to a great degree about being understood, which tends to overblow the feeling that others are mystified by her (and is something that I think she has told me I do too much as well, typically noticing our own traits in someone else instead :crazy

This is just a hunch, so @tine please say if you feel this is totally off the wall!


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

Pyroscope said:


> I believe @_tine_ is a feeling type. I think she very rarely desires truth for its own sake, but rather to know that a) she can trust people or things/feelings and b) since she's a doubtful person by nature, clear answers help her feel safer that she understands what is going on around her.
> 
> I also believe that she *seems* extraverted, but isn't really. She has stated many times that she holds herself back a lot and has a friendly/joking exterior to keep the atmosphere light/relaxed and to avoid exposing the parts of her that feel nebulous and uncertain. I think that her reaction may actually point to an inferior Te response of 'I must be certain before putting this out there'. I think that Te-inferior types often unconsciously have a need to craft their outputs to the world into perfection. The issue is that they are rarely talented at that sort of approach (I certainly feel this way myself) and are paralysed by this awareness being mixed with the unshakeable feeling that they still *have* to do it to protect their ego. This is where @_tine_'s classic response of 'I don't know myself, I'm not sure what that means' manifests in that she doesn't have a sure answer to give anyone on what she does. Her actions have some meaning behind them that she sort of feels aware of but can't give a Te-approved 'definite' version to anyone.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I'd say you were the closest so far with a description of me XD (well in the way I think I seem compared to an outer view, you're perceptive!) 
I'm confused with E/I at the moment because I know I'm not outgoing (as you stated, it's more of a peace-keeping thing) and I don't like going 'out' with people, but like being outside and doing things and thinking and working (like I like to study in the library rather than my room because the atmosphere feels better and there's room for ideas in the air).
The Se thing confuses me too XD Apparently Ne is the same in liking all that stuff, so I can't really find a difference at the moment >< I'm working on it though!
Thanks again!! On the whole, good observations!!


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

INFP is very similar to me too...
"As such, they are far more serious than they appear outwardly and tend to think in terms of what they _should_ be doing."
"They like to set goals for themselves, even if they end up being diverted from them. They tend to approach things with an agenda or a certain set of expectations. Upon waking, they consciously determine what they want to/should do and initiate the process. At least when it comes to _initiating_ tasks, INFPs are as disciplined as any EJ. It is only _after_ starting a task that INFPs get sidetracked and start looking more like Perceivers"
"it seems that INFPs have their own inner control freak."


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## Pyroscope (Apr 8, 2010)

tine said:


> I think so, especially the triggers and being overly sensitive to criticism when stressed (reflected the inferior etc).
> I find Si is more comfortable and helps me feel 'safe' (in an illusionary way) whereas Te is more anxious/demanding/aggressive/frightening.


Yeah that's the same experience I have with Si and Te. Si is that way you can isolate yourself from everything and go 'hey I can handle wallowing in this experience, this feels good... I don't need to deal with anything else' whereas Te is there in the background saying 'you need to do something, this is a waste of your time and the things you could do if you got your act together'.

I see Si as a sort of bubble that keeps you from facing what is actually happening by creating this primitive but comfortable feeling (for example I find that eating certain foods mixed with reading webcomics or other comforting media gives me this 'safe' feeling, but the activities on their own don't do anything, it's only the mix together). Te is not so kind... It's waiting there in the background ready to berate me for being childish and falling into bad habits. It's that voice that says 'think about what you could have done and look at how you failed'. The problem is that Te only admonishes, it's Ne that's needed to make one feel optimistic again and go 'Hey this situation is silly! I have so many opportunities and so many different ways to approach the thing that's bothering me! *brainstorming occurs* Now why was I bothered about that..?'

I think INFP could well be a good fit for you! roud:


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

Pyroscope said:


> Yeah that's the same experience I have with Si and Te. Si is that way you can isolate yourself from everything and go 'hey I can handle wallowing in this experience, this feels good... I don't need to deal with anything else' whereas Te is there in the background saying 'you need to do something, this is a waste of your time and the things you could do if you got your act together'.
> 
> I see Si as a sort of bubble that keeps you from facing what is actually happening by creating this primitive but comfortable feeling (for example I find that eating certain foods mixed with reading webcomics or other comforting media gives me this 'safe' feeling, but the activities on their own don't do anything, it's only the mix together). Te is not so kind... It's waiting there in the background ready to berate me for being childish and falling into bad habits. It's that voice that says 'think about what you could have done and look at how you failed'. The problem is that Te only admonishes, it's Ne that's needed to make one feel optimistic again and go 'Hey this situation is silly! I have so many opportunities and so many different ways to approach the thing that's bothering me! *brainstorming occurs* Now why was I bothered about that..?'
> 
> I think INFP could well be a good fit for you! roud:


Yeah I definitely find I need the brainstorming to feel better and find all the good things I can. When I was depressed I was excessively critical of myself and others and the voice in my mind was always putting me down. I find that now I'm happier I seem to use Ne and feel I'm embracing my Fi a lot more rather than the Te taking over and making me anxious/doubtful.
Thanks for all the ideas, I think INFP may be it


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