# Do You Enjoy Meditation?



## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

Spades said:


> I agree, they are not even remotely the same thing. I also don't recall stating that they are. I was just curious to see if there was any correlation, as there would appear to be (with Fi types as well, though I chose to focus on perceiving functions here). I think there would also be a correlation with Type 9's.


You did not state that they are but you made a claim that I'm not an Ni user just because I don't meditate which can only be true if Ni = meditation. 

Granted, it probably is correlated with Ni since it's one of the ways you can stimulate the CF, but correlation =/= causation, and there are many other ways in which you can stimulate Ni outside of mediation just like the fact that you can stimulate Se through many other means other than bungee jumping.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

childofprodigy said:


> You did not state that they are but you made a claim that I'm not an Ni user just because I don't meditate which can only be true if Ni = meditation.
> 
> Granted, it probably is correlated with Ni since it's one of the ways you can stimulate the CF, but correlation =/= causation, and there are many other ways in which you can stimulate Ni outside of mediation just like the fact that you can stimulate Se through many other means other than bungee jumping.


Oooh, I see the misunderstanding. Sorry for being unclear; my suspicion of your Ni had nothing to do with meditation actually. It was a separate point and should have been addressed separately, like on your profile. I've just noticed from your posts and your profile that you are pro-capitalism and success-oriented, which certainly can be *any* type, but the way you speak and the things you say almost scream ESTJ. I don't mean that in a negative way. I have much respect for people who are pragmatic and get things done. Personally, the things I get done have little material value but are still important to me.

e.g. I'd rather do scientific research and get paid very little, than engineering in a similar field and get paid more. In fact, I've done this and lost money in some cases.

Of course, I've never met you in person so my words don't mean much. Sorry for the confusion with Ni.


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

I recognize the value of meditation but am rarely disciplined enough to a) actually mediate, or b) keep my mind clear enough to be successful.


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## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

Spades said:


> Oooh, I see the misunderstanding. Sorry for being unclear; my suspicion of your Ni had nothing to do with meditation actually. It was a separate point and should have been addressed separately, like on your profile. I've just noticed from your posts and your profile that you are pro-capitalism and success-oriented, which certainly can be *any* type, but the way you speak and the things you say almost scream ESTJ. I don't mean that in a negative way. I have much respect for people who are pragmatic and get things done. Personally, the things I get done have little material value but are still important to me.
> 
> e.g. I'd rather do scientific research and get paid very little, than engineering in a similar field and get paid more. In fact, I've done this and lost money in some cases.
> 
> Of course, I've never met you in person so my words don't mean much. Sorry for the confusion with Ni.


lol apologies accepted



> e.g. I'd rather do scientific research and get paid very little, than engineering in a similar field and get paid more. In fact, I've done this and lost money in some cases.


lol you actually scream INTP to me....you may want to check that out as well

INTJs are actually some of the most successful types when it comes to money making

In fact, they're more successful than ESTJs


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

childofprodigy said:


> lol that actually screams INTP to me....you may want to check that out as well
> 
> INTJs are actually some of the most successful types when it comes to money making
> 
> In fact, they're more successful than ESTJs


Making money is of very little importance to me above a certain threshold. That is not to say that I'm not capable, in fact I think I'm in an advantageous position in that regard. However, the values that I have overpower any material ones. I don't think P's are any less capable than J's, but different people enjoy different types of work. I find it depressing to do work I'm not fully immersed or interested in. I'm curious to see any data you have found on this topic, though there is so much experimental error when it comes to studies requiring self-reporting. (We can take this elsewhere as to not derail the OP).

I don't think that I'm an INTP. I think even ENFP is more likely for me, but ultimately INTJ is the best fit I have found (besides 8w9).


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## birthday (Feb 6, 2011)

I've meditated before, but I do think I'm doing something wrong. After a few minutes I begin to feel light-headed and somewhat nauseous. My guess is that I'm exhaling too much.


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

Ne user and inclined to like meditation quite a bit. However, I don't do it often—only every so often—and I'm not that disciplined. If I get an epiphany, I get up and write it down . 

I just like it because I've had a pretty noisy head lately. My mind used to wander a lot more than it does nowadays (due to stress) so meditation is a way of devoting some time to relaxed Ne-Ti activity. It gets my mind quiet afterward and grounds me in the here-and-now. 

Although, actually, yoga sounds fun. Don't think it would serve the same purpose for me as meditation, though.


What are you thinking re Ni and meditation, Spades? Curious. Though, of course, I don't mind if you want to hold off for more results before you say anything about your idea.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Meditate every night, INFJ


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm too A.D.D. to meditate.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

P.s. I actually expected cookies for a moment, after clicking the link... then I realized this was the internet :sad:


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Raye Penber said:


> P.s. I actually expected cookies for a moment, after clicking the link... then I realized this was the internet :sad:


Yep. But hey, it worked! *Gives you metaphorical cookie*


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## MonieJ (Nov 22, 2010)

Yeah I do when I actually take a break from runnin around haha.


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## TechnoViking (Mar 9, 2011)

Wanna meditate to the max potential?

Use this video and others like it: 




There is many different frequincies that do different things to your subconscious mind. Just open the video, close your eyes, and just meditate. After its finished, you will usually get this very unique feeling, almost like a high, its makes you feel good as hell, not even joking. Here are all the frequencies.

396 Hz Liberating Guilt and Fear
417 Hz Undoing Situations and Facilitating Change
528 Hz Transformation and Miracles (DNA Repair)
639 Hz Connecting/Relationships
741 Hz Awakening Intuition
852 Hz Returning to Spiritual Order
936 Hz Pineal Gland Activator


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## Alaya (Nov 11, 2009)

Ni-dominant and I meditate once in a while. I don't do it as often as I should because it bores me to tears but it actually helps me from thinking too much or when I'm anxious.


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## pericles (Apr 16, 2011)

Se-dom here. I meditate every night but I only enjoy it when I manage to do it correctly. Otherwise, I feel an uncomfortable pressure in my head.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

TechnoViking said:


> Wanna meditate to the max potential?
> 
> Use this video and others like it


I've used these exact ones and have had great results! I'm a bit skeptical if the frequencies themselves make a difference, but having a steady pitch in your ears definitely induces an altered state. Have you tried binaural beats? They are fantastic (provided you don't get annoyed by the pitches).

Also heh, I thought you were trolling at first with the first sentence ^_^;


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## Donkey D Kong (Feb 14, 2011)

Ni user

I tend to meditate daily, even during classes which causes me to fall asleep sometimes.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Even though I've already answered this thread, I keep looking at the title and seeing "Do You Enjoy Medication?" 

roud:


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

fourtines said:


> Even though I've already answered this thread, I keep looking at the title and seeing "Do You Enjoy Medication?"
> 
> roud:


:laughing: same thing here! We should get an intense discussion going so we have a very good reason to come back.


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## FreeSpirit (Jun 1, 2011)

Ni.

I started meditating a bit back to help boost my dopamine/serotonin
(read somewhere that meditation could not only help that but
also your brain waves- some monks achieve gamma which is supposed
to indicate focused learning) and I liked it right away, but after
a few more times, I started feeling angry or actually crying for no
reason (my mind would be blank when this would happen) and I'd
come out of it feeling weird.

Stopped because of this, but I'm thinking of trying it again and thinking
of something specific to prevent the above.


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## Dharma Ga (Feb 5, 2009)

The anger, crying and feeling weird after is nothing to worry about, it says to me that your brain is accessing areas where there are a lot of pent up emotions. The meditation is helping you pull them to the surface which is exactly what it is supposed to do. These feelings will subside the more you meditate. I have had those feelings as well while meditating even deeply frowning and growling at times, but those experiences were shortlived. It seems to me you have a very good basis to build on with your meditation, a lot of people struggle to reach the stage you've reached where you're in tune with your underlying emotions. Keep it up!


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

Se, and yes, it helps me calm down and sleep more easily.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Wow, thanks everyone! It's great to see some results forming. I definitely need more S-users of both types, and more replies in general. *Tosses away more cookies*


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Spades said:


> Wow, thanks everyone! It's great to see some results forming. I definitely need more S-users of both types, and more replies in general. *Tosses away more cookies*


 There's a large majority of Ns on the forum, so I doubt you will get equal responses.


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## Wobzter (Jun 2, 2011)

Spades said:


> Wow, thanks everyone! It's great to see some results forming. I definitely need more S-users of both types, and more replies in general. *Tosses away more cookies*





Raye Penber said:


> There's a large majority of Ns on the forum, so I doubt you will get equal responses.


Signature updated :]
Might lure them in better ;P


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Wobzter said:


> Signature updated :]
> Might lure them in better ;P


I dig it. :laughing:


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I am so glad that you decided to conduct a poll on this topic, Spades, as I've been immensely curious about this exact topic myself over the last 3 or so years! I'm personally convinced that meditation is more likely to be an activity that appeals to Ni users, especially Ni doms, since as an introverted intuition function, it only makes sense that this function's focus is heavily psychological (I guess spiritual or religious can pertain also - anything meaningful and symbolic to the self and worldview, which I've specifically found to relate to enneagram orientation in interesting ways) relative to the other functions, which I've noticed in myself and in the writings of many psychological novels (e.g Siddhartha, The Death of Ivan Ilyich, Joseph Conrad novels (I definitely suspect he was an Ni dom or aux), etc). Buddhist meditation screams Ni to me, as its focus is mainly around seeking personal meaning inherent in only the present moment to create (or realize) your own (connecting with inferior Se - a release from the burden, even torture of Ni domination - in my experience as an Ni dom, I think I can safely say that it is not an easy function for even us to embrace, in my case, coming from a family devoid of Ni users, going through a school system that completely rejects Ni (Si), even to Ne (think brainstorming in groups, which was a rather poor bastardization of Ne though). If there is anything that the meditative mindsets universally reject from what I've noticed, it's Si, which is "devilish" (8th position) for Ni doms, as meditation is ideally about throwing preconceptions about reality (Si) out of one's cognitive filter, which seem to inhibit inferior Se from what I've experienced/read online. This feels like freedom to me, finding the answers to troubling societal preconceptions in keen observations of reality, sometimes finding that they answer was in your mental or physical proximity all along, and not the be-all-end-all of existence! Connecting with Se seems to constitute the unorthodox forms of reasoning that make Ni doms something of a threat to the established order, I like to think. As for whether or not Buddhist meditation is more INTJ or INFJ in nature can make for some interesting debate!


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

You hit the nail on the head of my hypothesis!

From observing myself and my overwhelmingly used Ni, and from reading Ni descriptions, I concluded that Ni sounds exactly like what meditation advocates try to promote. I began meditation naturally in Grade 12 because it was almost easy for me since my thoughts came in that fashion anyway.



JungyesMBTIno said:


> [...] this function's focus is heavily psychological (I guess spiritual or religious can pertain also - anything meaningful and symbolic to the self and worldview, which I've specifically found to relate to enneagram orientation [...]


Yes. This can certainly be interpreted spiritually since Ni appears to be so detached from the outside world or even from regular thoughts/emotions that it may seem mystical sometimes, especially when combined with a strong Fi or Fe. It's all in how the user chooses to interpret it. Some people see it as "dark", I see it as "comforting". What relations to enneagram have you found?



JungyesMBTIno said:


> If there is anything that the meditative mindsets universally reject from what I've noticed, it's Si, which is "devilish" (8th position) for Ni doms, as meditation is ideally about throwing preconceptions about reality (Si) out of one's cognitive filter, which seem to inhibit inferior Se from what I've experienced/read online. This feels like freedom to me [...]


Yes yes! I can't speak for anyone else, but this deeply applies to me. I reject my Si to the point that I can't even stand doing the same thing over long periods of time (4 months or so) in fear of stagnation. I need to find new ways of doing things or else I feel mechanical. I think many xSTJ's mistype as INTJ because of the Te, but they don't realize how set in their ways they are (which is perfectly good and useful, hence they are more practical people).

It does feel like freedom!

The Se point you make is surprising because I thought it was only me who related Ni to Se in some weird way. I'm not sure how, but when I'm in nature for example and I take it all in, I go on a bit of an Ni-Fi loop and find it meaningful.



JungyesMBTIno said:


> Connecting with Se seems to constitute the unorthodox forms of reasoning that make Ni doms something of a threat to the established order, I like to think. As for whether or not Buddhist meditation is more INTJ or INFJ in nature can make for some interesting debate!


Yeah, I think INTJ's are the most independent type because a) they have highly individualized Ni, b) they have good organizational skills (Te), c) they have Fi not Fe, and d) they (eventually) have Se. I don't mean to toot my own horn though, the advantages come with large disadvantages as well. I often have problems with authority, but maybe that's my Type 8 speaking.

INFJ is probably more likely correlated with meditation because they directly use their visions to create harmony around them. INTJ's might find meditation less useful if they don't have developed Fi, but when they do, it can create harmony within them.

^_^


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

So to elaborate further, I'll state my hypothesis now, but don't read it if you haven't voted XD

Hypothesis
Ni users would enjoy meditation the most (very focused).
Ne users would enjoy meditation the least (prefer unfocused).
Si users might not enjoy it, but might discipline themselves.
Se users might enjoy it, especially if they use their Ni.

Current Results
Ni users: 13 yes / 16 total = 81%
Ne users: 10 yes / 20 total = 50%
Si users: 2 yes / 2 total = 100% (not enough data)
Se users: 4 yes / 5 total = 80% (not enough data?)


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Spades said:


> You hit the nail on the head of my hypothesis!
> 
> From observing myself and my overwhelmingly used Ni, and from reading Ni descriptions, I concluded that Ni sounds exactly like what meditation advocates try to promote. I began meditation naturally in Grade 12 because it was almost easy for me since my thoughts came in that fashion anyway.
> 
> ...


Wow, I totally agree about meditating naturally, although I started seriously in the summer going on 10th grade! I barely had to read much on the topic to basically experiment with my own inexplicable way of completely clearing my mind through intense hyper-focus away from my mind and onto a single environmental stimulus and gradually expand my focus to other sensual aspects of the environment. I was able to visualize the state of mind that I wanted to achieve and desperately wanted to manifest the self-confidence to make this my reality - belief in the process has a truly amazing way of guiding the process, and having a powerful dom. Ni, I was able to convince myself that there is possibility in the visions I doubt most to be a reality. I'm a notorious chronic doubter, and it had gotten to a very pathological point once, which is why I experimented with meditation after visualization techniques failed. Just recently, I came to the revelation that the guided imagery failed me since that is essentially what I needed to escape from (Ni) to develop my Se. If I had never tried this, I don't believe that I would ever be where I am today. The taste of freedom was almost unbelievable at first! I even started getting somewhat prescient from that meditation and occasionally do today when in this present-oriented meditative state - it has given me faith in my Ni like I never had before! Since Ni thinking is pretty oppressed in the world, I'm not so surprised that practices of a psychological and spiritual nature like this exist, let alone, are viewed as dark by so many (my twin sister finds a lot of things of an Ni nature a bit creepy (e.g. Siddhartha, Heart of Darkness, etc., and she's an INTP). New agey stuff is usually given a bad rep. by people who have never even tried it, and can be misunderstood; sometimes it's the fault of those that promote it, and/or there aren't enough warnings that go along with this stuff. What you said about the interaction of the F functions is particularly insightful. That speaks volumes about how I view my Fi with Ni, pretty much through a fog that the average person would probably see as "mystical," I view as inherently meaningful. 

As for my enneagram observations, I've noticed the following related to Ni and the quest for "meaning":

Starting with me as an enneagram 5w4 (just the other night in bed, I finally gained confidence that I prolly have a 4 wing, which I've suspected off-and-on since I discovered the enneagram): My spiritual preferences seem to align with the discovery of truth in the psychological realm and realms of human insight that sort-of confirm my Ni relations to Se in that weird way you talk about - the 5 wing makes me very absolute-truthy for an INTJ (makes me mistakable for a stereotypical INTP in motivations) and neurotic about uncertainty in my understandings of the universe, while the 4 wing seems to make me very inclined to align truth and all that I find wonderful with meaningful feelings and a desire to retain mystery in my understanding of the universe, while simultaneously seeking truth - simply put, I guess what I'm getting at is that I feel that my existence has some sort of a deep and mysterious relation to various truths I am inclined to pursue, which could most easily be identified in my obsession with psychological truth (truth related to me as a unique entity which could be related to understanding reality) and obsession with scientific truth (if I'm not understanding or accepting reality for what it could actually be, I feel the need to look into myself first). And it might be helpful to know that I'm an atheist. It seems that the 4 wing aligns with my F side more, interestingly enough. I wonder if this is often the case with the wings of others and their lower functions?

As for others:

Type 1s: They seem to be more focused on finding meaning that fits sort-of a higher calling of Ni that can be interpreted rather agnostically by other Ni users- more likely to be spiritual in a religious way - they seem to search for heavy-handed meanings that support overarching themes - seems like a lot of the Ni writers I mentioned fit this bill - kind of the contrary of 4s where they feel their subjective Ni meaning experiences are meant to be universally understood and not a product of their uniqueness

2s: Never met a 2 Ni dom/aux

3s: Meaning in accomplishments (hmm..I can sort of relate to this occasionally) - I know two ENTJ teachers like this - likely to influence through teaching and finding various career paths - even if they have potential to go farther and normally like this, they often seem to hit a stopping point that they feel satisfied with - emphasize how important and life-changing knowing your weaknesses can be to find your higher calling in accomplishments - life coaches?

4s: Deeper self-referential meaning - very idiosyncratic (relatable to me) - could sound _very_ eccentric to non-Ni users - often the Ni users that take symbolism rather literally and also rebel against conventional symbolism to find create their own (literal symbolism can be annoying to me though) - their existence feels like it has deeper meaning - usually more F heavy Ni users - mental states bring them closer to finding meaning

5s: *The* truth will set you free and you will know when you find it - truth usually = objective reasoning - likely atheists or very skeptical of religion -can be like 1s, but more often scientists

6s: Find deep meaning in the sides they take and constantly relate themselves to the sides (not like 4s in that they relate the sides to themselves) - bound to find classic Ni paranoia in these types - like 4s, among the most creative Ni users, but often for opposite reasons (Ni 4s or 4 wings like to be creative to feel incomparable to others or any side, Ni 6's will be creative to confirm their relation to a side) - how spiritual or psychological their focus is tends to depend a lot on the wing

7s: Ni users that use their Ni to lie to themselves for experimentation, imaginative and escapist from themselves through Ni, which helps them find meaning in it

8s: The Ni users who often feel like having Ni means that they have special powers to save the world with (makes me think of parts of John Lennon bios I've read)

9s: Knowing 1 type 9 INTJ, can resemble type 4s (rather F focused), but are often oblivious to their own uniqueness and can be eccentric - Buddha-like - detaching from emotions can be enlightening to them - mental states cloud meaning for them


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

I WAS PROMISED COOKIES!1!!1

Anyway, no. If I am stressed/need to sort things out, I dance.


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## Wobzter (Jun 2, 2011)

firedell said:


> I WAS PROMISED COOKIES!1!!1
> 
> Anyway, no. If I am stressed/need to sort things out, I dance.


Sorry O


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## XO Skeleton (Jan 18, 2011)

If by meditation you mean staring off into endless space and just letting my mind wander, then yes, I do this quite a bit.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Do I answer yes or no? I've had the idea described to me and can see the benefit of it (watching your thoughts as if they were curiosities... fascinating), but I don't know how to do it myself.

Also, do I still get a cookie if I don't know what to answer?


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## heartturnedtoporcelain (Apr 9, 2010)

I can't get into that headspace and I don't try to. I just think all the time and disappear to my head naturally ... it doesn't work if I try.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

If I could get my head to shut off on command I might stand a better chance. Then again I might not have sleep issues like I do either. The only kind I ever enjoyed was a walking meditation where I managed to shut it up for a good while and absorb all the sensations around me, but that has to be also in optimal conditions, no distractions outside or inside. When successful it feels wonderful though.


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## DonCoryon (Sep 16, 2011)

Spades said:


> Hypothesis
> Ni users would enjoy meditation the most (very focused).
> Ne users would enjoy meditation the least (prefer unfocused).


What did you mean by focused and unfocused here?


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

@Spades @JungyesMBTIno

What kind of meditation do you two practice? I am not familiar with meditation generally but I do know that mindfulness meditation seems to be the form most recommended, especially for beginners. The emphasis there seems to be in keeping the mind blank. But you two speak of thoughts, etc. Is this a different kind of meditation? Or is it still mindfulness meditation and you are simply talking about the thoughts that arise naturally?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

XO Skeleton said:


> If by meditation you mean staring off into endless space and just letting my mind wander, then yes, I do this quite a bit.


No, it's actually quite the opposite. Meditation is quieting your mind so that it doesn't wander and not following your thoughts but just watching them arise and pass by like clouds, until the sky clears and you're just observing the present moment.



Owfin said:


> Do I answer yes or no? I've had the idea described to me and can see the benefit of it (watching your thoughts as if they were curiosities... fascinating), but I don't know how to do it myself.
> 
> Also, do I still get a cookie if I don't know what to answer?


Hmm, well since you haven't actually tried it yourself, I would put "don't know" for now I guess. *Hands you virtual cookies*



heartturnedtoporcelain said:


> I can't get into that headspace and I don't try to. I just think all the time and disappear to my head naturally ... it doesn't work if I try.


I think you have it the other way around. You don't want to disappear, you want to be aware of yourself and have your thoughts disappear, in meditation.


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## heartturnedtoporcelain (Apr 9, 2010)

Spades said:


> I think you have it the other way around. You don't want to disappear, you want to be aware of yourself and have your thoughts disappear, in meditation.


hmm point. I forgot that a buddhist monk tried to show us how to do it a while back. And, yeah, it was a struggle.

Anyway, I'm not sure I would like lose my thoughts. I would prefer to disappear into thought rather than what you are talking about.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

DonCoryon said:


> What did you mean by focused and unfocused here?


I thought that might be confusing and almost erased it. What I mean is, Ne wants to branch out of ideas. From each idea there's multiple possibilities, and it's easy to get lost in thought. I picture it being more difficult for Ne users to stick to one particular thought without branching out, for example focusing on your breath. I can't speak for other Ni users, but for me, I can hyperfocus on things. I actually cannot multitask, it's a weakness of mine. So focusing on my breath is easy, and catching myself when my mind wanders isn't too bad. Though this was just a guess based on Ne users I've talked to. I didn't mean to imply they are less focused people in general. I'm sure anyone can enjoy meditation if they put the effort in.



bamboozle said:


> @Spades @JungyesMBTIno
> 
> What kind of meditation do you two practice? I am not familiar with meditation generally but I do know that mindfulness meditation seems to be the form most recommended, especially for beginners. The emphasis there seems to be in keeping the mind blank. But you two speak of thoughts, etc. Is this a different kind of meditation? Or is it still mindfulness meditation and you are simply talking about the thoughts that arise naturally?


I actually don't practice a particular type (or don't know the name). Usually, the idea is to clear my mind and observe thoughts as if they are clouds, without getting attached, until the sky clears, so to speak. And then being in the present moment, just observing whatever arises (images, sensations, thoughts) but not trying to go with them, remaining an observer. Sometimes, I do different things. Sometimes I focus on my breath, or alternate blocking my nostrils (called Pranayama). This form of meditation is more advanced, and I picked it up from learning Kundalini Yoga. Sometimes, I just sit and close my eyes and focus on one idea (e.g. before I write an exam, before a big day) and see if I get any future visions of what will happen, or gain confidence/focus for that particular thing. Similarly, if I have a difficult decision to make, I "meditate" on it, to see if I have underlying feelings toward one side or the other, and to come up with pros and cons that I hadn't thought of before. I'm not sure if the last one counts, but why not.

Oh, and there are other things as well. Sometimes doing a repetitive activity can be very meditative. Dance, hula hooping, even mindful walking. It's not always about sitting cross-legged and chanting Om (though I like to do that too!) Eh, I didn't explain things properly. I had a long night XD.


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## DonCoryon (Sep 16, 2011)

Spades said:


> I thought that might be confusing and almost erased it. What I mean is, Ne wants to branch out of ideas. From each idea there's multiple possibilities, and it's easy to get lost in thought. I picture it being more difficult for Ne users to stick to one particular thought without branching out, for example focusing on your breath. I can't speak for other Ni users, but for me, I can hyperfocus on things. I actually cannot multitask, it's a weakness of mine. So focusing on my breath is easy, and catching myself when my mind wanders isn't too bad. Though this was just a guess based on Ne users I've talked to. I didn't mean to imply they are less focused people in general. I'm sure anyone can enjoy meditation if they put the effort in.


I didn't think you were implying anything. I asked, because my initial thought was the opposite of the labels that you offered, so i wanted to understand what you were saying. I was thinking that Ni was unfocused, because in meditation (at least the one I tried and mentioned earlier) was to unfocus my mind and think of nothing.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

DonCoryon said:


> I didn't think you were implying anything. I asked, because my initial thought was the opposite of the labels that you offered, so i wanted to understand what you were saying. I was thinking that Ni was unfocused, because in meditation (at least the one I tried and mentioned earlier) was to unfocus my mind and think of nothing.


Ah, alright. Yeah, it's a bit of a contradiction. I see it as focus because you're focused on the present moment. The focus is drawn _away_ from your thoughts. So you were seeing that side of it, as unfocused. I see it the first way because once I let go of thoughts, I become hyper-aware of everything else going on, but that's not necessarily more focus, just a shifting of it.

Wow, I worded that pretty badly. Oops.

Edit: As an aside, I think a Judger would be more likely to employ a meditation schedule and stick to it. Though that's a generalization with no supporting evidence.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm pleased that the results at this point are of statistical significance. Of course, there is a huge selection bias with the title on this thread, and other sources of error as well, not to mention mistyping. But overall I'm happy people replied! Now I'm curious what proportion of Ni-users were xNTJ and what proportion were xNFJ. I can see INFJ's as probably being the most likely, but in reality I think any Ni user could be attracted to meditation, but for different purposes. Te users might not see it as being worth their time, but anyone who actually uses Ni would probably be willing to try it, as the very nature of Ni is to try different/new approaches to things. And if there is no benefit, they would just as easily abandon it.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@ Spades

Just the other day, I was considering how interesting it is that you have an enneagram type with such a stereotypically opposing wing and am curious about how much you consider this to influence your preference for meditation, since 8 is generally energetic and influential in nature, while 9 is passive and peace-seeking. 

As for whether or not INFJs or INTJs would find it more appealing, I kind of thought INTJs might, since their F is lower and would generally cause them more problems than INFJs, who as Fe users, might prefer a change of setting more to influence their state of mind in new and refreshing ways, since the F functions seem to influence state-of-mind more being associated (but not exactly) with emotions. Then again, the pragmatism of INTJs around the internet and such that you mention is so rampant that I can see this as being a more ultimate determinant. I suggest you conduct a poll though!


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## yesiknowbut (Oct 25, 2009)

OK.
I think the Ni theory is spurious.

I don't have huge experience of meditation, do it periodically as a guided meditation in a group, but the (experienced professional) person who guides us has mentioned in passing things which are misconceptions. First, that if your mind is too active you can't do it. Second, that you MUST empty your mind or it doesn't work.

The body-mindfulness, breathing thing gets you into a state in which meditation can occur. It isn't the meditation itself. Hey, just thinking about breathing is really dull. What it seems to do though, is to simultaneously focus you on yourself, and also take away a degree of physical awareness: if you haven't moved for a while, you lose sensation in most of your body, can't feel your hands and feet....

...as I say, I have only done guided meditation, which might even be a bit like hypnosis, since it drops you into this state and then introduces ideas, walking through a forest to a personal space, down the steps to an underworld....all sorts. At this point the interesting thing is that images pop into your brain, and they create whole new worlds for you, at times. I have had some profound insights from this process.

But I think (as a Rational) that this is a little like dreaming, since my insights have almost always been a visual representation of the emotional quality of my current life.

And everybody dreams, not only Ni users.

It may be that Ni users and/or those that can concentrate on one thing more easily find it easier to enter this state, but we are all capable of getting there. As a primary Ne user I have found the inspiration that comes from the sudden images to be very stimulating....fascinating indeed.


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

Spades said:


> I actually don't practice a particular type (or don't know the name). Usually, the idea is to clear my mind and observe thoughts as if they are clouds, without getting attached, until the sky clears, so to speak. And then being in the present moment, just observing whatever arises (images, sensations, thoughts) but not trying to go with them, remaining an observer. Sometimes, I do different things. Sometimes I focus on my breath, or alternate blocking my nostrils (called Pranayama). This form of meditation is more advanced, and I picked it up from learning Kundalini Yoga. Sometimes, I just sit and close my eyes and focus on one idea (e.g. before I write an exam, before a big day) and see if I get any future visions of what will happen, or gain confidence/focus for that particular thing. Similarly, if I have a difficult decision to make, I "meditate" on it, to see if I have underlying feelings toward one side or the other, and to come up with pros and cons that I hadn't thought of before. I'm not sure if the last one counts, but why not.
> 
> Oh, and there are other things as well. Sometimes doing a repetitive activity can be very meditative. Dance, hula hooping, even mindful walking. It's not always about sitting cross-legged and chanting Om (though I like to do that too!) Eh, I didn't explain things properly. I had a long night XD.


Ah, I see. Yes. This is the kind of meditation I am familiar with. I think I see how much of a beginner I really am, now! For me, as a Ti-dom/judger first, I forget that simply perceiving is a thought process, too. I actually consider focusing on perception as 'switching off' my thoughts and keep getting caught off-guard when Ni-doms, particularly, tell me otherwise. 

Heartturnedtoporcelain seemed to be coming from the same angle I did. 

I think I'll have to try harder to sense/perceive. 

Thanks for the explanation. 




heartturnedtoporcelain said:


> hmm point. I forgot that a buddhist monk tried to show us how to do it a while back. And, yeah, it was a struggle.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not sure I would like lose my thoughts. I would prefer to disappear into thought rather than what you are talking about.


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

I think you may have misrepresented the hypothesis a little. I don't think Spades was presenting an all-or-nothing hypothesis. 'Only Ni users can do meditation.' That is the kind of hypothesis you seem to be negating (though, I could be wrong). Instead, I think Spades was suggesting that everybody can meditate but that Ni users may be naturally more inclined toward it, especially as it is an abstract perceiving function. More than Ne, Ni (as an introverted perceiving function) seems capable of hyper-focus, as Spades was saying. Ne seems to be a much broader, in-the-moment, catch-all kind of perceiving function. 

But you do have a point. Perhaps different kinds of meditation suits different perceiving functions better. 

You mentioned that you have gotten dream-like insights in this state, alfreda. How long does it take to get to this state for you? Just curious as a fellow Ne-user. 





alfreda said:


> OK.
> I think the Ni theory is spurious.
> 
> I don't have huge experience of meditation, do it periodically as a guided meditation in a group, but the (experienced professional) person who guides us has mentioned in passing things which are misconceptions. First, that if your mind is too active you can't do it. Second, that you MUST empty your mind or it doesn't work.
> ...


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## yesiknowbut (Oct 25, 2009)

5-10minutes, I'd guess. But never done it solo. Think I might struggle to get there at all on my own.


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## QueCueYew (Aug 20, 2010)

I conveniently skipped... most of the posts in this forum... but I am a Ni dominant and have always been interested in the benefits of mediation, although the exact discipline has always evaded me. I've picked up a couple of books on it but once I sat down to read them they only seemed very new age-ish, which I coincide with sensationalistic trash and far from the roots and actual _useful_ application of the practice. 

When I actually try to get into some meditative trance it's usually extremely hard. I am naturally hunched over due to my lack of care concerning posture and when closing my eyes just enough to block any external stimulation involving sight it only lets loose a torrent of thoughts that I cannot quiet. Breathing exercises aren't as useful as I had thought they would be as they don't necessarily put me into any 'mental' state, but usually just involves me counting one, two, three, four, five, then five, four, three, two, one with each deep breath I take. Really I don't get it but I do understand where meditation can bring you if done properly and with experience. 

Any tips on how to break on through?


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## Cloudlight (Jan 5, 2011)

Candid Apple said:


> When I actually try to get into some meditative trance it's usually extremely hard. I am naturally hunched over due to my lack of care concerning posture and when closing my eyes just enough to block any external stimulation involving sight it only lets loose a torrent of thoughts that I cannot quiet. Breathing exercises aren't as useful as I had thought they would be as they don't necessarily put me into any 'mental' state, but usually just involves me counting one, two, three, four, five, then five, four, three, two, one with each deep breath I take. Really I don't get it but I do understand where meditation can bring you if done properly and with experience.
> 
> Any tips on how to break on through?


I skipped through most of it as well 
I had the same issues when i first began meditation. As you have most likely have read 3.2 million times breathing is key. What many meditation nooks and articles fail to include is a non-judgemental approach. Breathing is simply the beginning...I liken it to learning the ABC's. it gives an idea of what the concept is about, but it is not all of it by any means. Try breathing without judgement. Mind-wandering is a part of being human. If one focuses on too much on breathing, when the thoughts enter the mind and disturb the breathing, (usually) people will judge themselves for it and end up giving up altogether. Every time a thought enters, let it go with a breath and focus on that. Starting takes a lot of practice. 

Another common misunderstanding is that breathing itself will bring you to another state of consciousness, and this is not the case. Breathing is just a tool one may use to clear the mind and focus on one's body. If you find that you are having extreme difficulty entering a meditative state, try meditating on a topic while doing breathing exercises you have learned. This can narrow your focus rather than clearing everything. This is generally not recommended until you have learned to clear the mind, but it might work for you. This is how I started as well. A topic to meditate on can be a concept (in lieu of a situation or the happenings of your life) that is simple, such as forgiveness, love, connection, etc (it doesn't have to be some dirty-hippie-new-agey thing...) try to remember that meditation is observing your thoughts approach you, rather than you actually thinking about them. try not to judge yourself if it is extremely difficult to find a breathing cycle that works for you. This is still hard for me. 

You can also reach meditative states without sitting still. Sometimes cardiovascular exercises and observing your thoughts works as well.

these tips worked for me, but in no way are they applicable to everyone.


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## QueCueYew (Aug 20, 2010)

Your paragraph ironically enough contains more information than the two books taking up precious little used bookshelf space.

I believe I've come close to what you might consider a state of meditation... but this goes hand in hand with weed and hackysack.roud: Which by the way for those who are active and can't manage to stand still but still want to find that meditating solidarity it is absolutely incredible. Weed optional however and not key to the experience.


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## DonCoryon (Sep 16, 2011)

Last night I got an itch to learn about socionics. I took a few different tests around the web and scored INTP on all of them. The part I found interesting, as it relates to this thread, is that in socionics my dominate trait would be Ni. (It's not my intention to compare socionics and mbti, I know those threads get heated and is not the point of this thread.) But I remember this thread and Spades' hypothesis, then wondered, should I give meditation another try? That's it.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> @ Spades
> 
> Just the other day, I was considering how interesting it is that you have an enneagram type with such a stereotypically opposing wing and am curious about how much you consider this to influence your preference for meditation, since 8 is generally energetic and influential in nature, while 9 is passive and peace-seeking.
> 
> As for whether or not INFJs or INTJs would find it more appealing, I kind of thought INTJs might, since their F is lower and would generally cause them more problems than INFJs, who as Fe users, might prefer a change of setting more to influence their state of mind in new and refreshing ways, since the F functions seem to influence state-of-mind more being associated (but not exactly) with emotions. Then again, the pragmatism of INTJs around the internet and such that you mention is so rampant that I can see this as being a more ultimate determinant. I suggest you conduct a poll though!


(I think the tagging feature only works if the @ is beside the name with no space. So like, @JungyesMBTIno)

Anyway, yes! I consider myself a walking contradiction, and I'm astonished that Enneagram manages to capture my extremes in such a perfect way using 3 chars: *8w9*. Basically every vice, virtue, fear, and motivation of an 8 is exactly me. However, I am not aggressive as that destroys the inner peace I try and maintain. I find that by putting myself in peaceful environments such as meditation, I strengthen my 8 "lust for life" and confidence. I do experience anger, but I've become really good at using it peacefully for the sake of justice, and not just lashing out stupidly. Martin Luther King Jr. is associated with 8w9 for that reason too, I think.

I see you're a 5. I was mistyped as one before I realized what Enneagram theory was actually about. What's your wing? Tritype?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

alfreda said:


> OK. [...]


I think @_bamboozle_ clarified it very well in my stead, but you do bring up good points.

Guided meditation seems quite different. I've done it few times, and it does seem very image-oriented. As a visual person, I see/think in images almost constantly when my eyes are closed. However, what you are describing seems to be more akin to daydreaming or hypnosis like you said, or certain drugs. It is a _very_ useful and enjoyable form of meditation, but not quite what I meant with the poll. And yes, I think any type is capable of meditation. I was curious to see if certain ones particularly _enjoy_ it more than others.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Mr.Nickster said:


> I skipped through most of it as well  [...]


Wow, I have to say you did a very good job of explaining the basic idea, much clearer than I would have. Thanks! I would use that as a starting point, Candid Apple. Actually, I said very similar things on a post on Page 7 of this thread!



Candid Apple said:


> I believe I've come close to what you might consider a state of meditation... but this goes hand in hand with weed and hackysack.roud: Which by the way for those who are active and can't manage to stand still but still want to find that meditating solidarity it is absolutely incredible. Weed optional however and not key to the experience.


Cannabis definitely gives a great mind-body connection. I also stated earlier that certain physical activities could also induce meditative states. The idea is to be aware of the present moment and not lost in thought.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

DonCoryon said:


> Last night I got an itch to learn about socionics. I took a few different tests around the web and scored INTP on all of them. The part I found interesting, as it relates to this thread, is that in socionics my dominate trait would be Ni. (It's not my intention to compare socionics and mbti, I know those threads get heated and is not the point of this thread.) But I remember this thread and Spades' hypothesis, then wondered, should I give meditation another try? That's it.


INTp, as in ILI? I'm trying really hard to understand socionics. Apparently, the functions are different. I still relate to Ni the most, but I tend to get ILE or LIE.

Sometimes, things don't work for everyone. If you have a good book/guide/teacher, maybe it would be much more successful, or maybe not. Best wishes!


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## DonCoryon (Sep 16, 2011)

Spades said:


> INTp, as in ILI? I'm trying really hard to understand socionics. Apparently, the functions are different. I still relate to Ni the most, but I tend to get ILE or LIE.
> 
> Sometimes, things don't work for everyone. If you have a good book/guide/teacher, maybe it would be much more successful, or maybe not. Best wishes!


Yes, ILI. 

Did you post your meditation story? How long have you been doing it? What got you started?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

DonCoryon said:


> Did you post your meditation story? How long have you been doing it? What got you started?


Hmm.. I don't think I did actually! It was rather......non-conventional.....

I was in Grade 12 in high school (so, 5 years ago). I had just gotten over years of depression/anxiety and was trying to piece myself together. I was aimless, unmotivated, and mostly a self-righteous little snob. I tried cannabis for the second time ever one night, and experienced the biggest epiphany of my life. I gained a sense of direction, self-discipline, motivation, and let go of angst. The experience made me start dabbling in deep self-reflective states, which eventually led to reading up on what meditation actually is and practicing that (not too formally though, whatever feels right). Since then, my life has done a 180 and although that has to do with many factors, including moving out to university, and not being a chemically unbalanced adolescent, I definitely think a certain amount of that is due to meditation.

Haha, yep.


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## tmighty (Nov 13, 2011)

Meditation is just too time-taking ))


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