# Happy ignorance or Miserable truth?



## Korvyna (Dec 4, 2009)

Surely, someone else shares the same problem I do... I find that when I'm told a lie, that something just feels off... And I'm not happy until I've uncovered the truth.... So because I was lied to (so it would make me happy)... It has the reverse effect and pisses me off. So, for me, it's either pissed off at a lie, or upset by the truth. 

My ex is a compulsive liar. He's gone as far to fabricate another roommate... I'm not buying that he is living in _our_ house (which is less than 1000 sq ft) with his new girlfriend, another roommate, and three dogs... There are just so many things he's told me that didn't add up... And I instantly pegged them as lies... Now granted, his were never very believable... But Others are quite believable and I can just sense that something is off... So it pisses me off, and I dig for the truth until I find it. And, surprisingly once I find it I'm happy.... Probably that need to be right that I have... So when I dig the truth out of a lie I gain that I was right sense and feel better. :tongue:

I don't care how miserable it makes me, I want the truth. I'm tired of being lied to about the tiniest of things. No matter how miserable it makes me, it will get better over time... Let's see, take for example a significant other cheating on you... You could know now and leave them and move on.... Or you could waste more time with someone that is cheating on you and have it continue and when you finally do find out it is worse.... No thanks. I'm tired of wasting my time on people that aren't worth it.


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## Aerorobyn (Nov 11, 2009)

Lies are only short-term happiness. I would rather know the truth, even if it meant living in pain. The way I see it, each and every bit of pain you endure - you become a bit wiser and stronger. If you lived a life full of lies and happiness, how would you ever grow emotionally? No, nobody likes living a miserable life (I sure as heck don't), but you've also got to think about it in terms of short-term vs. long-term. 

I don't know if this makes sense, but it did in my head. Truth and pain > Lies and happiness.


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## whyerr (Jan 10, 2010)

"..I can see you happy, in the shadows I despise.." took it from the context, but still.
Little white lies make me sick as any other lies. But everyone lies, whatever the reason is (it probably always is for some reason!). Sometimes I wish we could just close our eyes and wish we could believe, because isn't pretending and playing along another form of a lie? Pain is good, it makes us stronger, smarter, more careful..


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

Can anyone actually imagine a world without lies? Relationships would fall apart quicker than they do now. People would likely hate each other more. Lies are essential. Go around and try telling what pops up in your head throughout the day and see how far it gets you. I feel as if people are just being hypocritical.


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## tinker (Jan 11, 2010)

Ignorance is a bliss!


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## whyerr (Jan 10, 2010)

Ignorance is a piss :wink: and we're LOVIN' it,cheers. 


> Can anyone actually imagine a world without lies?


No.


> Relationships would fall apart quicker than they do now. People would likely hate each other more.


Oh, but we looove each other. Did you know, that cheating actually makes a marriage stronger?


> Go around and try telling what pops up in your head throughout the day and see how far it gets you.


The very reason, why I like internet so very much


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## HeartlySerious (Jan 2, 2010)

A lie will usually uncover itself though, eventually.
C: Truth hand-down for me. Let's get it over with


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## mutton (Jan 21, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> Can anyone actually imagine a world without lies? Relationships would fall apart quicker than they do now. People would likely hate each other more. Lies are essential. Go around and try telling what pops up in your head throughout the day and see how far it gets you. I feel as if people are just being hypocritical.


 Being truthful is not equal to telling everyone everything that pops into your mind. Lies, even the smallest white ones, are filthy. Many people say they are necessary at times, but I really don't think they are. It is lies that hurt relationships more than truth. Lies are self serving only; they do not look after anyone else but self.

Would the world be different without them? You betcha. I don't think that means that everything would fall apart and be worse.

If people were truthful in relationships, many relationships would not start to begin with, which would spare many hardships later. When one started to have problems they could be worked at when the problems were small and managable, instead of waiting for years of festering under the surface until it one day exploded when it was beyond repair. I truthfully believe that there would be less marriages ending in divorce.

Even those little lies that we think spare others tend to only hurt them. If I ask a friend if this skirt makes my butt look big I would want them to tell me the truth about it. Why would I want my feelings spared while I look like a fool with a big bum? Why would my friend want that to me? Do they not have my best interests in mind?


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

lies of omission are no different. If the truth was so great then I think more people would tell it and if your telling me you never lie I wouldn't believe you for a second.


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## mutton (Jan 21, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> lies of omission are no different. If the truth was so great then I think more people would tell it and if your telling me you never lie I wouldn't believe you for a second.


 Keeping your mouth shut does not always equal a lie of omission. Sometimes keeping opinions to yourself when not directly asked for them is tact. Other times not saying something is wrong. It depends a bit on the situation.

I certainly don't claim to never lie, but that doesn't mean I can't still find it filthy. I do lots of things I hate. Someday I would like to say that I no longer lie. I would tell you that I'll stop right now forever, but that itself would be a lie. :happy:


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

I know it's not realistic but I recommend anyone who can to watch "The Invention of Lying" I found the movie to be quite humorous. It's a relatively new movie that I believe was just released to video. I found it online, if you want a link pm me.


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## Susanna (Nov 15, 2009)

Trifoilum said:


> But that doesn't mean there's no truth within the world.
> And that doesn't mean you should not know--aware of the truth.
> 
> Now I might sound pretty bullshit here; but there's difference between happiness in ignorance and happiness in helplessness. Helplessness is knowing you can't do anything about it. Ignorance is consciously choosing not to believe this pain you feel.
> ...



I like the happiness in helplessness because there is so much wrong in the world. Also though Happiness is a choice we make. I can wake up in the morning and say "today I want to be happy" or not. I have a choice.


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## Susanna (Nov 15, 2009)

RighteousRob said:


> I've known heroin addicts that were more successful than the average person. Judges and politicians have been linked to cocaine use. So yes, I believe if the person is capable they can be just as, or even more successful regardless of the drug, the only true consequence is their relationship with others. I speak from personal experience here so believe me when I say I know much more about this than you think you do.
> 
> 
> You really think it's that easy to change someones perceptions? I see things in a different way than most the people around me. If I could live in blissful ignorance I would but I can't. What may be true for you does not translate to truth for everyone. Wishful thinking is much more harmful because it usually leads to a lack of action. You keep bypassing the point in this thread by saying truth will make you happier. When does the truth make people happy? I can list multiple examples of when lies are more appropriate than truth. Little white lies are no different. And yes lies can be harmful, but so can the truth.



I have known plenty of addicts in my life and the usual common thread is that they are wonderful people in many ways. I get the feeling they cannot overcome what they know, saw, experienced in this life. They choose to remain in an altered state to forget. I don't judge them for that. I just hope for the overcoming to show up and their chance to live a full life of presence.


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## SeekJess (Nov 1, 2009)

I would rather be completely miserable and live a life of pain and truth... Than be an unaware idiot.


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## fiasco (Dec 25, 2009)

RighteousRob said:


> I've known heroin addicts that were more successful than the average person. Judges and politicians have been linked to cocaine use. So yes, I believe if the person is capable they can be just as, or even more successful regardless of the drug, the only true consequence is their relationship with others.


Cocaine is very different from crack. Can you tell me something about the successful heroin addicts?



RighteousRob said:


> *I speak from personal experience here so believe me when I say I know much more about this than you think you do.*


I've watched my father destroy his life and my family with his drug use. My mother has worked with homeless addicts as part of a Christ saves all campaign. We lived in a women's shelter for about 1, 1 and a half, or 2 years, after my family was finally ripped apart for the final time, where many of the women -- all of different backgrounds -- were on drugs and went fucking crazy whenever they came down or couldn't find more to take them back up. Watching them made me quite miserable.

Maybe I _don't _know more than I think I do, but I'd like to think I at least know _something_ from personal experience.



RighteousRob said:


> You really think it's that easy to change someones perceptions?


Of course not. It's _much_ easier said than done. If it _were_ easy, there would be a lot less active prescriptions for anti-depressants and even less drug escapism. People want to be happy. It's natural and expected. What I say is that you can find something else -- rather than a drug, a lie, escapism -- something healthier to put you on the road to happiness.

Why do I say that if you're tired enough, you'll deal with the real problem? Because it seems to make sense. I've watched many people do it -- things that I thought were insane at the time -- and I've done it many times myself. I am the escapist, avoidant _queen_. If I can finally do something about what is really bugging me, I expect just about anyone can.



RighteousRob said:


> I see things in a different way than most the people around me. If I could live in blissful ignorance I would but I can't. What may be true for you does not translate to truth for everyone.


Self-evident.

Most so-called truth is subjective, but there does exist truth which is objective and indisputable. 



RighteousRob said:


> Wishful thinking is much more harmful because it usually leads to a lack of action.


Isn't escapism and blissful ignorance much more like wishful thinking? Or are you trying to call optimism and positive thinking wishful thinking? Optimism and positivity don't keep you from taking action.



RighteousRob said:


> You keep bypassing the point in this thread by saying truth will make you happier. When does the truth make people happy? I can list multiple examples of when lies are more appropriate than truth. Little white lies are no different. And yes lies can be harmful, but so can the truth.





> so if your happy, *should it matter if your happiness is built on lies?* *Would you rather know that your lover is cheating on you or would you rather remain blissfully unaware?* *If you were in the matrix would you really want to take the blue pill and be subjected to the truth?* What good is the truth if all it leads to is misery?


I assumed the "point" of this thread was to tell you what we prefer, why we prefer it, and why we don't believe the truth only leads to misery. Being that I know I'm wrong now, I'll soon stop responding.

Truth _does_ hurt. Almost always. But the way I see it, I'd be suffering in silence if I decided to eat the lie instead. I'd at least want to know _why_ I am suffering. That is why I would prefer the truth.

Little white lies -- telling your mother her soup wasn't too bad -- are hardly comparable to bold-faced lies: we are torturing these men because they are terrorists; we are fighting these wars for world peace; we are taking these people away because they've won a trip to _the island_.

Pardon me for not agreeing that truth is invariably miserable and never stops being miserable.

I'm very curious to see your examples of where lies are more appropriate than truth.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

If truth was so important than you wouldn't accept any lies, you wouldn't lie. You only accept it on a piece meal basis and that is just the sign of a hypocrite. I have no need to give you examples. Everybody lies, it's the way of life. To think otherwise is naive.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

As much as I hate to admit most people are not capable of handling the truth, people are morons and it's been shown in the past that the truth just makes people panic. The great depression in america happened because people found the truth that there was no money, ran to the banks to try to withdraw all of it and pretty much fucked everyone. You talk of truth on a grandiose scale but we are not even aware of the lies we tell ourselves.


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## fiasco (Dec 25, 2009)

RighteousRob said:


> If truth was so important than you wouldn't accept any lies, you wouldn't lie. You only accept it on a piece meal basis and that is just the sign of a hypocrite. I have no need to give you examples. Everybody lies, it's the way of life. To think otherwise is naive.


I expect this is officially done now, since you're not even replying to my posts.


I never said you had the need to, but you said that you could and I took that as an offer. I accepted.


I never said that no one in the world ever lied. I have no idea what this has to do with my post?

But anyway, it was fun while it lasted.
All the best to you.


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## Morgan Freeman (Oct 16, 2009)




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## fiasco (Dec 25, 2009)

Er, excuse me. I only saw this post after I made my last one. Sorry :bored:



RighteousRob said:


> As much as I hate to admit most people are not capable of handling the truth, people are morons and it's been shown in the past that the truth just makes people panic. The great depression in america happened because people found the truth that there was no money, ran to the banks to try to withdraw all of it and pretty much fucked everyone.


It's a valid point, but personally I think the public had a right to know that there was no money. This is just another one of many instances where so many claim that the government must lie to its people for their safety. Some things should _probably_ be kept covert -- especially if it could be _proven_ to pose a significant threat to the people -- but more often than not, they are lying just to lie, dealing behind the scenes to exploit, and keeping things secret because they know what they're doing is so corrupt that it's the only way they can do it. In that same instance, the ignorance goes from shielding to actively harming.

I _refuse_ to think in absolutes. Sorry. One exception to the rule does not completely annihilate the rule. There is a _very_ thin line between ignorance for safety and truth for safety, but in my _personal opinion, _as I feel I was prompted by the OP to offer, a steady dose of truth, education, and consideration does more good than the opposite. I _am_ thinking grandiose and long-term rather than small scale and immediate.



RighteousRob said:


> You talk of truth on a grandiose scale but we are not even aware of the lies we tell ourselves.


When you said _living_ in blissful ignorance, I thought of one lie. Then another. And another, and another, until your entire life's happiness is based on that grandiose illusion. I can't see how that happiness can be stable at all, seeing as it's grounded in absolutely nothing. 

This should at least clarify my view.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

I would still take a world I knew to be fake as long as I was happy over a world where you have to sift through the bullshit and try to decipher the truth for yourself. People lie to spare other peoples feelings, they lie to spare themselves, it's inevitable, I just wish I could buy into the lies.


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## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

Just because 'lies' are intrinsic to human nature, doesn't mean we shouldn't work to find 'the truth'. And then live it.


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## truevitality (Jan 18, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> I would still take a world I knew to be fake as long as I was happy over a world where you have to sift through the bullshit and try to decipher the truth for yourself. People lie to spare other peoples feelings, they lie to spare themselves, it's inevitable, I just wish I could buy into the lies.


Well then...you're buying into the 'lie' already. The simple fact that you think you aren't is a sign that you are. You've seen the Matrix I'm sure. And besides, I feel like that movie you saw has reinforced your feelings on the matter.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

you would have to elaborate truevitality for me to be able to discuss that issue.

Ok, so when I originally created this thread it was under the idea of small, personal lies. Ones in our relationships and with things that directly effect us. I felt that even if you were in a relationship with someone who was unfaithful, if you didn't know, and you were happy, and you could remain happy until you passed, Than why not. However in order to branch the topic out further we will attempt to discuss grander truths. The trouble with this issue is we can not say what is the truth or not. When we are discussing politics, religion, and other things of this matter there are no definites. So if we are to discuss this the best way to do so would be to use hypothetical situations or to take events from history and to compare them. Anyone who wants to do this is more than welcome to.

Now to move on to the "little white lies." I will say this about white lies however, they are the ones used most often to spare someones feelings, by doing this you are admitting that sometimes lying , can be better than the truth. By allowing something even as small as this it allows for the rationalization of more and more complex lies. I do not care much for hypocrisy, and to me, the truth as I see it is everyone really wants to live in an ignorant world where happily ever after exists, but the fact is it doesn't exist and I don't think people are willing to admit this to themselves.


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## truevitality (Jan 18, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> you would have to elaborate truevitality for me to be able to discuss that issue.
> 
> Ok, so when I originally created this thread it was under the idea of small, personal lies. Ones in our relationships and with things that directly effect us. I felt that even if you were in a relationship with someone who was unfaithful, if you didn't know, and you were happy, and you could remain happy until you passed, Than why not. However in order to branch the topic out further we will attempt to discuss grander truths. The trouble with this issue is we can not say what is the truth or not. When we are discussing politics, religion, and other things of this matter there are no definites. So if we are to discuss this the best way to do so would be to use hypothetical situations or to take events from history and to compare them. Anyone who wants to do this is more than welcome to.
> 
> Now to move on to the "little white lies." I will say this about white lies however, they are the ones used most often to spare someones feelings, by doing this you are admitting that sometimes lying , can be better than the truth. By allowing something even as small as this it allows for the rationalization of more and more complex lies. I do not care much for hypocrisy, and to me, the truth as I see it is everyone really wants to live in an ignorant world where happily ever after exists, but the fact is it doesn't exist and I don't think people are willing to admit this to themselves.


You said you would rather take a world you knew to be fake than having to shift through the bullshit. And that you wish you could buy into the lie. Well, what's the problem? If you can't buy into the lies, and you know that what's going on is fake, well then it sounds to me like you're already living in your dream world. You're just not happy in it.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

It's not the same. I would rather have people tell me up front that they were lying instead of trying to deceive me. I'd be more content if people would just admit that to themselves instead of being surrounded by hypocrisy. Realizing something is a lie on your own and being told up front that you are being lied to ahead of time are two completely different things. This was the point I was trying to make. But people still try to claim that all they care about is the truth, and yet I do not believe them.


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## Trifoilum (Dec 13, 2009)

> Ok, so when I originally created this thread it was under the idea of small, personal lies. Ones in our relationships and with things that directly effect us. *I felt that even if you were in a relationship with someone who was unfaithful, if you didn't know, and you were happy, and you could remain happy until you passed, Than why not*.


I am not going to discuss difficult things; let's not make this topic harder to swallow than it already is.. but we're mostly agreeing to disagree here.
I, for myself, won't agree with your statement. I already made my statement; I choose to find the truth.
If you can find the truth, and you could remain happy without being lied on, then why not?



> Now to move on to the "little white lies." I will say this about white lies however, they are the ones used most often to spare someones feelings, _by doing this you are admitting that sometimes lying , can be better than the truth. By allowing something even as small as this it allows for the rationalization of more and more complex lies_.


I would probably say this, with my limited capacity of understanding; let's going meta.
Your part of the post I'm italicizing was a paradox I'm now questioning. By either agreeing or disagreeing with your statement, won't that mean either way that lies are better than truths?

I can say this from my experience alone; This is a truth; everybody lies. I lied, you lied, everybody lied.
Does it mean people SHOULD live in that?
Does it mean things would've been better if it's all sugarcoated in lies?
Does it mean lies are better than truth?
Nope. Truth be told, that's an entirely different matter. And I'm being extremely sensitive here but it seems you've gone beyond asking each person preference to playing logic games simply to prove that your choice, whichever it is, are right.



> I do not care much for hypocrisy, and to me, the truth as I see it is everyone really wants to live in an ignorant world where happily ever after exists, but _the fact is it doesn't exist and I don't think people are willing to admit this to themselves_.


Your definition of 'happily ever after' is more likely a state of euphoria; an uncontrollable, a wild state, influenced by external things.
And with your last statement; I won't speak for everyone but from what I'd seen : Then what are you calling these people who chose the painful truth over those sweet lies you're offering?
Lastly, the fact that happily ever after may not exists does not imply nor should they imply that people should stop making their own. >_>;


> It's not the same. I would rather have people tell me up front that they were lying instead of trying to deceive me. I'd be more content if people would just admit that to themselves instead of being surrounded by hypocrisy. Realizing something is a lie on your own and being told up front that you are being lied to ahead of time are two completely different things


Wait. What? So it'd goes like, "hey, I'm lying here. You can look away."?
It is a different things but it's also hierarchical in terms of....level of ignorance.

In the end...... we seems to have different views.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

people only want the truth when it suits them or when it is forced on them, to believe otherwise is naive. I was going to drop the subject because all I see is a bunch of hypocritical statements but I was asked to clarify my views on the subject.


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## truevitality (Jan 18, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> It's not the same. I would rather have people tell me up front that they were lying instead of trying to deceive me. I'd be more content if people would just admit that to themselves instead of being surrounded by hypocrisy. Realizing something is a lie on your own and being told up front that you are being lied to ahead of time are two completely different things. This was the point I was trying to make. But people still try to claim that all they care about is the truth, and yet I do not believe them.


RighteousRob? Can you give me a concrete example? Maybe I'll go back through the posts to see if you already did. But I think it's quite possible to live a content and happy life so long as _I_ know what's true and what isn't. Most people don't know they're lying to themselves so it's hard to tell other people they're 'lying' when they don't even know they're lying. For example, I trully believed for a long long time that Jesus was a white man. I mean I _really_ believed it. And if my peers told me that he wasn't, I probably would've think they were a lying. But I learned otherwise through self-education that he most likely did not look like the typical blue-eyed, dark haired white man that I see in the pictures all the time. 

You mean in terms of religion, politics, what?


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

An example.. People say they want the truth, and yet when it comes to telling the truth where are their beliefs then? Sure it's easy to say you don't want to be in a relationship that is built on a lie. How many of us when we were going to break up with someone consoled them the days prior saying that everything was fine, that they were imagining things? It's hypocritical to say you want the truth and that all you care about is the truth when the truth is no one actually believes that. I guess I shouldn't say that because I am sure there are those that have themselves convinced that they actually do believe, but that is the hypocrisy I was speaking of.


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## truevitality (Jan 18, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> An example.. People say they want the truth, and yet when it comes to telling the truth where are their beliefs then? Sure it's easy to say you don't want to be in a relationship that is built on a lie. How many of us when we were going to break up with someone consoled them the days prior saying that everything was fine, that they were imagining things? It's hypocritical to say you want the truth and that all you care about is the truth when the truth is no one actually believes that. I guess I shouldn't say that because I am sure there are those that have themselves convinced that they actually do believe, but that is the hypocrisy I was speaking of.


Hmm...did you just have a relationship issue occur in your life? Just asking. 

We actually had this very same conversation in my rhetoric and composition class last semester. I think this topic on truth is the whole reason we have an imagination. It helps make life more bearable. But I don't think EVERYONE is going around lying. Some people really are straight forward and they will tell you when something's wrong. But it's easy to overlook the bad. But that doesn't mean that _all_ truth is bad. I feel as though somehow we've honed in on the negative parts of truth more so than the positive. And when people say they want the truth, I think that's what they're focusing on. The good! And the _good_ is that once you know the truth you can work to adapt to it or you can get stuck! 

For example, when my last ex and I were going through problems, I asked him to play a game called "21 questions". In this game we had to be as honest as possible with each other. And I asked him what is one thing you would never tell me. And he said, "Our relationship problems". He didn't lie. He told me exactly what he wouldn't tell me. And then a few days later, he broke up with me to be with someone else. I was devastated! I cried and cried but I'm glad that I now know the truth! The truth can hurt! And we all know it! But there's something about the truth that gives us so much freedom! A nutshell example is that old relationship. I felt awful that I knew the truth that he wanted someone else, but I felt so free after I knew! That's what people say _all_.the.time! "The truth will set you free!" And they are so right!:happy:

And I do still believe "happily ever after" exists. but I also believe it's something that requires work and commitment. It's not some 100% effortless dream like Disney fairy tales will have you believe. :sad: I think people can forget that part. It's like saying, "I want to go to Disney world! I want to go to Disney World!" But you won't make it to disney world until you pick yourself up off your arse and make the trip! :dry: Many don't acknowledge that and we buy into this glamourous sense of entitlement that we're suppose to have everything handed to us on a silver platter. But life just doesn't work that way. 

Buttt, I do see your point. And well, one day I hope find a way to live comfortably in this reality. Because you could lose your mind through the frustration of getting upset over trying to shift through the bullshit. :sad:


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## Outcode (Nov 28, 2009)

I think it's really situational. I'd prefer to be happily ignorant but if it's something like my lover cheating on me I'd like to know.


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## Susanna (Nov 15, 2009)

RighteousRob said:


> It's not the same. I would rather have people tell me up front that they were lying instead of trying to deceive me. I'd be more content if people would just admit that to themselves instead of being surrounded by hypocrisy. Realizing something is a lie on your own and being told up front that you are being lied to ahead of time are two completely different things. This was the point I was trying to make. But people still try to claim that all they care about is the truth, and yet I do not believe them.


Righteous Rob,

Anyone who lies to others is lying to themselves. I have nothing but compassion for liars and cheats. They are in more pain than I could understand. And another thing. It is a 24/7 job for me to take care of my own truthfulness that I have little energy to worry about whether someone else is lying. Yet I am alone, and I am able to sense deception at some level that makes it impossible for me to stay with someone if I perceive them to be untrue - not just cheating, but simple things too. I just know I want as much of the truth as I can get and I want to be around those that want the same. We may all lie at times - denial is a good example of lying to onesself, however, when we recognize it we can face it and move on. Its not what other people are, its what you are that gets you a good nights sleep at night. Be well and be happy.


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## Haruhi Suzumiya (Dec 24, 2009)

Miserable truth as brooding is my happiness. :3


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> so if your happy, should it matter if your happiness is built on lies? Would you rather know that your lover is cheating on you or would you rather remain blissfully unaware? If you were in the matrix would you really want to take the blue pill and be subjected to the truth? What good is the truth if all it leads to is misery?
> 
> 
> I think I'd settle for a life full of happy little lies. If you don't know they are lies then why even care.
> ...


Truth is paramount, especally in a relationship. Beides, if I'm in a relationship, and my significnt other is cheating on me and I didn't know, I'd feel that something was wrong which would leave me uneasy.


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## fiasco (Dec 25, 2009)

Blah, I was supposed to be here earlier. I got swamped and now I'm so tired that all I want to do is tinker with type theory again. I want to consider everything I say this time before I say it, so I'll have to actually make a "real post" later. But for now, just a really brief correcting of something I felt may have been previously misunderstood.



RighteousRob said:


> Now to move on to the "little white lies." I will say this about white lies however, they are the ones used most often to spare someones feelings, by doing this you are admitting that sometimes lying , can be better than the truth. By allowing something even as small as this it allows for the rationalization of more and more complex lies.


I'd like to point out here that I make a conscious effort not to white lie. It makes me feel like I begin to set myself up for strict obligations, and I don't know how much it bothers anyone else, but I know for a fact that I hate feeling obligated and having people depend absolutely on me. I believe in honesty, but I also believe in tact. They can come together (and quite well, at that) without morphing into a falsehood. Going back to mother's soup, if she asks me whether I liked it and what I thought about it, I would give what I feel is constructive criticism; that is, not "It kind of blew", but a tactful review of its misses -- "It was pretty heavy on the salt and the carrots perhaps should have been boiled longer. I didn't like the rice at all" -- while still making sure to tell her the positives: "The flavor of the broth made it much easier to deal with the rice, however. Your idea of mixing in the chili powder was brilliant; overall it's a good soup, although I believe a few things could definitely have been better". The truth (from my perspective) is told, while at the same, I expect not too many feelings are damaged.

But back to white lies, since we are stepping away from considering truth on a global scale, white lying generally _is_ indeed usually the beginning. The best, grandest lie starts out small and with so much truth that sometimes it _is_ nothing but the truth taken out of context and sequential or chronological order. This of course shows how fragile the relationship between truth and falsehood can be, and how simple it can be for some to cross that line without realizing it. This is in part what made me think more about it. Where should we (each of us personally) draw the line between lie and truth, how can we tell exactly when it is crossed, and more importantly, _why_ do we, as in the case of many cultures, feel the need to draw a line between a good lie and a bad lie if all of us here are truly subconsciously perceiving truth, lie, and good and bad so objectively and black-and-white (or is this simply my misconception? I see that many do not view lying objectively, but would prefer the truth simply because it can be more 'liberating' at times)? _Do_ we -- all posters here -- in fact consider lying as an everyday practice as subjectively as most would consider moral values without realizing it, or is lying indeed so concrete that objective reasoning is all that is necessary? ("The truth is invariably better")

Before, I wondered why lying was considered universally unethical, but within a cultural context, white lying varied from misunderstood and disliked to upheld and proper -- Germany versus Japan, for instance. Germans are very generally more straightforward, while in Japan the language itself stresses more of what is not said rather than what is. I used to think the latter was sneaky and deceptive, but what do you think -- is Japan's way lying or is it just a different way of telling the truth (albeit one that appeals to higher or deeper perception or insight)? So many are quick to write the truth off as something that is very easily perceived, but it's self-evident that it is far from that. Is it lying just because you can't immediately see that it's not?

What do _you_, Rob, think it is that makes a bad lie a bad lie? Is it the deceptive or manipulative intent behind the falsehood, or is it simply the act of letting a falsehood escape your mouth? Is it the truth that harms us more, or is it the sudden realization that we have been being lied to? To tell a bad lie, do you have to be consciously aware that you are? And if you are not, can you be held fullly accountable for your actions? Going back to its sometimes fragile relationship with truth, is it really wise for our thinking to be so black and white? What if someone is convinced that they _are_ telling the truth, even if from someone else's perspective (or by virtue of objective proof) it _appears_ to be a lie? Who is really lying then?

This is more "Why and When is Lying Bad" than Truth versus Ignorance, and perhaps redundant, unnecessary, a little pretentious... But I'd like to entertain these harmless thoughts nonetheless.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

well I suppose I would consider a lie bad when it is being told to intentionally harm someone, or because you are too weak, or cowardly to tell the truth. I'll give an example that I believe almost everyone can relate to. Lets say your dating a significant other, and you lose interest in them. Now the appropriate thing to do would be to break it off. But many of us, probably lead them on for days, maybe even months, assuring them that everything was fine. This is an example of being to cowardly to tell the truth, and yet this is the same truth that everyone claims to want for themselves. There are many situations like this one, maybe it involves a friend whom you don't particularly care for, maybe you talk bad about them behind their backs and smile to their face. This is a lie of omission, sure you are trying to be civil but your doing it for yourself, not for them. To think otherwise is just lying to yourself. Everyone does these things, and sure they may not be truly harmful, but that doesn't make them ok.

I can not say what makes a lie bad, or a lie good. All I can do is give examples. Dealing with morals it is up to the person to decide what they want for themselves. I will say this about lies, more often than not it's not the fact we were lied to that hurts, we may say that, but the reason we were being lied to is because it's usually about something bad. You lie to your parents about where you were one night, yea they'll be mad when they find out. You tell them the truth that you had unprotected sex after drinking and doing drugs, they'll be much more upset. This is just another hypocrisy I see people spouting because to them they think they are being righteous, when all I see are more lies.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

I have one more point. Maybe it's just me but how many of us have been in a relationship where we just know the other person has been unfaithful. Maybe you see the signs somehow but you try to assure yourself that nothing is wrong? You try to deny it, knowing that your relationship is falling apart. I should clarify that I have not been in a relationship in 6 years, I have no desire for one either. Maybe it's because I am not emotional that I can spot the signs easier, maybe I recognize when I am trying to lie to myself better than others. Woman provide one thing for me and that is a release. Do not assume that it is because I have been burned in the past that I feel this way. I have done my own share of hurtful things and I do not hold an entire gender accountable for what has happened to me. I have just become more aware of what I want, and what I actually need more so than the average person.


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## Korvyna (Dec 4, 2009)

RighteousRob said:


> An example.. People say they want the truth, and yet when it comes to telling the truth where are their beliefs then? Sure it's easy to say you don't want to be in a relationship that is built on a lie. How many of us when we were going to break up with someone consoled them the days prior saying that everything was fine, that they were imagining things? It's hypocritical to say you want the truth and that all you care about is the truth when the truth is no one actually believes that. I guess I shouldn't say that because I am sure there are those that have themselves convinced that they actually do believe, but that is the hypocrisy I was speaking of.


I sure as hell didn't do that. I told him exactly how he was making me feel... I was so tired of people feeding me a bunch of crap expecting me to believe it, and I damn sure didn't want my significant other to feed me that same bunch of crap. He knew things weren't all right. I was telling him that I was _not_ attracted to him anymore and that I thought he was a lying jerk. And a lot of other colorful stuff that I won't repeat here... 

Contrary to your belief, there are some people that will flat out tell a person what they are really feeling... I am pretty sure the last time I pulled the "Everything is fine" crap was back in my early 20s. After a certain age, I didn't want to waste time in life anymore with someone that I didn't want to be with so I became rather blunt and to the point from then on.



RighteousRob said:


> I have one more point. Maybe it's just me but how many of us have been in a relationship where we just know the other person has been unfaithful. Maybe you see the signs somehow but you try to assure yourself that nothing is wrong? You try to deny it, knowing that your relationship is falling apart. I should clarify that I have not been in a relationship in 6 years, I have no desire for one either. Maybe it's because I am not emotional that I can spot the signs easier, maybe I recognize when I am trying to lie to myself better than others. Woman provide one thing for me and that is a release. Do not assume that it is because I have been burned in the past that I feel this way. I have done my own share of hurtful things and I do not hold an entire gender accountable for what has happened to me. I have just become more aware of what I want, and what I actually need more so than the average person.


Again, several years ago I would have tried to deny it. Now the second I suspect it I confront the person. And if I still don't believe them when they tell me it's not true, then I tell them I don't trust them and walk away. I've had many many relationships and come to realize that I have yet to have one that really makes me happy. I honestly seem to be happier when I'm single... I think it's the freedom... I don't feel like I have to tell someone where I am going and with who... I just go do it. Sure I moped around for a bit once my relationship ended, but I think that was because I wasn't used to not having someone there... Once I got used to it I realized I was happier than when someone WAS there.


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## Tucken (Dec 13, 2009)

I want truths. On a more philosophical level the bar is not set to "absolute truth" all the time. Minor lies are, of course, ok. If you say you went to the store to buy shampoo when in fact you went because you wanted fresh air or to spy on the goodlooking cashier that's totally fine.


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## Wanderling (Dec 27, 2009)

Knowledge, even tragic knowledge, is better than happy ignorance. 

Ignorance is bliss? Not for others it isn't! Just think of all the damage done by crazy political or religious fundies.


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## R22 (Aug 16, 2009)

It depends for me on what is meant by 'truth'. Do I want someone's subjective opinions constantly shoved down my throat as 'truth'? Probably not (makes me think of that saying, "what you think of me is none of my business"). Do I want dishonesty, denial & lies in my relationships? No, because I have certain expectations in my relationships, such as my partner being faithful. For me, it also comes back to self as I know I am far from perfect and have a lot to work on too. However, I have to say denial is a huge pet peeve/trigger of mine. My mother was/is big on that; she has very limited tolerance for uncomfortable feelings & therefore created this little bubble for herself that wasn't reality-based, with dire consequences for her children, we really took the brunt of it so she wouldn't have to face some facts. If anything I am probably overly willing now to face the 'truth' and could probably relax a little more and not be so harsh on myself.


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## mylifemyradio (Jan 24, 2010)

Hm, sometimes I wish I can just rewind myself to my childhood where I was so ignorantly happy... but deep down I know that that's just being delusional.

Of course, it'd be nice to have the best of both worlds. Why not a truth that is optimistic and happy? Why does truth always have to be tragically labeled?


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

mylifemyradio said:


> Of course, it'd be nice to have the best of both worlds. Why not a truth that is optimistic and happy? Why does truth always have to be tragically labeled?


I think part of hat keeps happiness happy is its rarity. The world's not a nice place, and people aren't either.


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## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

mylifemyradio said:


> Of course, it'd be nice to have the best of both worlds. Why not a truth that is optimistic and happy? Why does truth always have to be tragically labeled?


Because 'the truth' can be percieved as uncomfortable upon first enlightenment to it. The truth often takes time to adjust to, and accept. Most people don't realise the complex process of what it takes to accept truths (or rather, the complexity we project onto it), especially if they come in severe opposition with established thoughts. Or they in some way or another, place us in undesirable contexts. It is not the truth itself that is uncomfortable, it is our reaction to it. 
By denying the truth and insisting on the misconception of ignorance equating to happiness, you deny the opportunity to accept the truth and find contentment. Even 'happiness'.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Miserable truth all the way. So red pill for me.


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## Wanderling (Dec 27, 2009)

MisterNi said:


> Miserable truth all the way. So red pill for me.


Yeah. Sometimes I just wish following the white rabbit were easier.


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## candidkamino (Feb 12, 2010)

I think it would be nearly impossible to be entirely ignorant, and therefore even more impossible to gain bliss from ignorance for any substantial length of time. Ignorance even if it was superficially happy/blissful would be incredibly boring and therefore unfulfilling/depressing. without darkness there is no light. without challenge their is no reward.


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## murderegina (Jan 7, 2010)

My truths are a sum of my disillusionment. If I admitted the truth of most things I hold dear to my heart, I would crack at the seams of my identity. Even the lies I believe knowing they're false, give me a sense of security. I need to survive the chaos that's always encircles my mind taunting the separating factor between my truths and the truth. I need my happy ignorance to believe I'm this smart, beautiful person who doesn't need any one. Otherwise, the miserable truth would be alive. It's like admitting something. Or crying after holding it in. Sometimes, admitting it doesn't really help because somethings aren't mendable.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

RighteousRob said:


> so if your happy, should it matter if your happiness is built on lies? Would you rather know that your lover is cheating on you or would you rather remain blissfully unaware? If you were in the matrix would you really want to take the blue pill and be subjected to the truth? What good is the truth if all it leads to is misery?
> 
> 
> I think I'd settle for a life full of happy little lies. If you don't know they are lies then why even care.
> ...


I would rather have the miserable truth, especially if it helped remove something harmful to me or something.


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## Phoenix400 (Sep 19, 2009)

I've always, ALWAYS said, "I'll take a hard truth over a cozy lie any day". The hard part is getting people to understand that you really mean that when you say it. All my friends know this. They see that I'll respond calmly if you sit me down and talk me to about something even if its not good. Yet they STILL try to sugarcoat or 'spare my feelings':angry:. 

Maybe I should just start punching people in the face when they hem and haw over confronting me with a possible hard truth. Tell the truth, no broken nose. Lie to me/sugarcoat, broken nose....hmmmm, Operant Conditioning using the 'Punishment' method of reinforcement.

Lol. My friends should be glad I rarely put my ideas into practice. :crazy:


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## Nasmoe (Nov 11, 2009)

If I suspect something, I am going to need the truth. I dont think there is a such thing as happy ignorance with me if I suspect something bad is going on.


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## la musa candido (Feb 19, 2010)

happy ignorance, as long as i am ignorant to the fact that i'm ignorant of something..if that makes any sense.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

makes perfect sense, the fact is your not really ignorant if you have suspicions. I don't think many people realize this


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## Kudo Shinichi (Feb 23, 2010)

*Miserable truth*

Miserable truth is safer than Happy Ignorance because you will get over it and prevent being hurt badly that cause you unable to overcome the problem, concentrate in your current issues and future plans.


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## la musa candido (Feb 19, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> makes perfect sense, the fact is your not really ignorant if you have suspicions. I don't think many people realize this


exactly! i wasn't really sure how to word, i get tongue tied like that.but i can picture myself going out of my mind not being able to figure out what i don't know, that would be the worst.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

I think what most people are assuming is that your going to eventually find out the truth. That is not always true, All of us have been lied to at one point and probably never were made aware, and because of that it was one less thing we had to stress over. To me everyone who is so insistent on "I want the truth" for themselves and yet I don't believe they are so blunt when giving it to other people.If you don't know you are being lied to and your never going to find out It's really not going to hurt you to keep going on in blissful ignorance. Everyone who has felt despair or true pain would trade almost anything for some form of happiness. Drug addicts use chemicals for this and they know that it is only temporary but to them even that small break becomes worth it when faced with the despair awaiting them.

That's an extreme example, but I believe if they came out with a pill that made everyone happy all the time regardless of circumstance and was completely safe the majority of people would be glad to take it.


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## JoBo (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm someone who thrives off of truth. I hate not knowing the truth, and feel like I need to know everything. But I fight truth enlightening, which makes me happy (usually). I can also look past truth to feel happy (ex. "yes I know that's a man in a Mickey Mouse costume but it's Mickey Mouse and I want a picture with him!")


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## nixe (Feb 24, 2010)

Heh, my ex rated me with some Facebook application as someone who always makes you smile, and also as someone who will always tell you the truth even when it hurts.

I would much rather know the truth. I think it's very important, to the point where I won't even consider letting other people make me party to their own self-deception. I don't believe in white lies.

The problem is, even if you could go on happily living a fantasy, the people around you won't be sharing that fantasy. There is no scarcity of people out there who will take advantage of the lies people tell themselves in order to hurt or especially to manipulate. Deceiving yourself makes you very vulnerable.

Maybe a matrix situation would be a bit different, but unfortunately we don't really get that choice in life. Delusion is more or less a solitary activity, and it's lonely in there.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

RighteousRob.. you sound to me like all the thinkers I have known who reach a breaking point. Sell outs. Sorry.

I'm fighting the good fight. It saddens me to know that the one thing that I want, I can't have: to know. Sure, we die before we have the time to gain that knowledge (assuming if we had enough time we could know it anyway), but its in every cell of my being to keep wondering. I have a life outside of this curiosity. I have more mundane things that make me happy. Things that I enjoy.. but nothing will ever silence the underlying noise.. curiosity. And I think that curiosity is what sets us apart from every other organism. You are crippling yourself.


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

Willful ignorance is one of the worst things someone can ever settle on. No matter how tempting it may be there is no substitute for knowing and understanding the truth.

Here is some copypasta from my blog that I think is apt for this situation-

I recently re-watched that classic piece of cinema that is "They Live". I'm sure most of you have seen it at some point and there's something for everyone in it. You get an entertaining sci-fi flick with some intelligent social commentary thrown in. Not to mention one of the most epic fight scenes in history. And that is what I wish to discuss here. Well sort of.

Roddy "I came here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum" Piper spends a great portion of time engaged in fisticuffs with a friend of his when all he wants his friend to do is put on his glasses for a brief moment. He has seen the world as it really is. He knows certain truths that will shake the foundation of the general populace to its core if brought to the forefront. And all someone else has to do is take a quick look through his point of view. Nothing too demanding, nothing too unreasonable. Even still his friend is so adamant in his refusal, so unwilling to risk disrupting his fragile world view, that he will not consent to see another opinion. 

When you can see things as they really are and strip aside the veneer that has been cast over them it's only natural to want to let the masses in on it. Only the masses don't want to know. Too many people are too content in not wearing the glasses and viewing the world through their rose colored irises. Knowledge and truth are scary things to some people. So scary that being made aware of such would completely raze the walls of delusion they had spent a lifetime building up.

If you have a pair of glasses then don't take them off. Do what you can to get other people to put them on once in a while. But spending all day doing battle with someone to get them to try and wear them when they adamantly refuse is just an exercise in futility. Some people just can't - or won't - be convinced. Let them go around with their invisible blindfolds, but for the sake of your own enlightenment wear the damn glasses.

_"This arises first and foremost because with man everything is powerfully intensified by thinking about absent and future things, and this is in fact the origin of care, fear and hope. Which, once they have been aroused, make a far stronger impression on men than do actual present pleasures or sufferings, to which the animal is limited."_
~Arthur Schopenhauer

Those who rely on nothing but base senses to take in the world are no different from any other lower life form.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

I always go with the miserable truth.


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## silverlined (Jul 8, 2009)

I'll take truth any day, no matter how painful it is to hear. The truth has a way of catching up and when it does, I'll be irked about being deceived because that's one of my pet-peeves. It will probably bother me more than the pain of whatever the truth is and the deception will only add insult to the injury.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm just going to say it as this thread has survived still, honestly when I read most of these replies I think to myself that these people are lying to themselves, they have no idea what they really want and that they are just really a bunch of hypocrites.

Hows that for truth? You can say I don't know you, that you are unique, but the fact is your not. We are all virtually the same, and I doubt that anyone here would still not lie to another to spare them some pain. So chastise me if you will for speaking my mind. I think it is just you are most all already living partially in the blissful ignorance of your own lies.


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