# 3w4



## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

New-ish to enneagram. Most of it sounds a little fluffy or new age to me but I took an interest in descriptions from @timeless. His summary statements made sense to me and before I'd read them all (from _Timeless_ descriptions) I'd made one up that would describe my own attitude, at least how I see life when I am happy and functionally at my best.

*The world is _______ therefore I ______*
My thought was "the world is malleable" "therefore I make my choices, make my case, (making a case for a solution or desired outcome that can be acted upon!) and lead; or else I've agreed to put up, shut up, and be content with what I (or causes I care about) get.

These are statements in description write ups, that caught my attention; they went something like this:

type*1*) The world is imperfect therefore improve yourself, improve the world.
type*2*) The world is in need of saving; be helpful, be loved and needed.
type*3*) The world is yours for the taking; be competent and succeed.
type*4*) The world is different from you; be unique and find your identity.
type*5*) The world is cut off from you; be competent and sustain.
type*6*) The world is dangerous; be aware, prepared, and survive.
type*7*) The world is engaging; try everything.
type*8*) The world is competitive; survive.
type *9*) The world is more interesting than your inner world; go with the flow.

I wouldn't mind if anybody has more one liners that follow this format to add or . . . . 
What Im really thinking about is whether or not this enneagram system has a built in bias against thinking and accomplishing. But also wondering if at this point in my own life I'm struggling with honesty in myself.
AND the idea that this system is the motivation but MBTI is the process seems backwards to my experience. I took tests early upon first visits to perC and had other indication of a tritype 385 or something. 

What I'm trying to say in the above paragraph is I may have felt "different" as a kid, but mostly uniqueness (4) is a major part of a sensible business plan, unless you just want to work for cheap. Presentation (3) matters a lot, mostly because most people are cognitively lazy; we are built to react to things probably encoded from primitive survival necessity. I know that I noticed as a kid, that it matters how you say things and how you present yourself more than the quality of your idea or intent, or proposal - just a fact of life. But I always considered myself smart enough to actually listen (and look for a broader context) and not be snowed by style over substance. I respect people who trust themselves and are not easy to become followers.

I watched the recent Steve Jobs movie and I was sympathetic to his idea of blacking out the exit signs, because the drama of that first presentation IS a big deal. What was troubling to me though, is the same thing I see in the descriptions of 3 enneagram type. Just because you understand what it might take to make things happen doesn't mean you need status or live to be admired or worshiped - which was kind of implicitly said about Jobs when they flash to his thoughts before a presentation or meeting.

Sooo I wonder if I've told myself I don't need status because I haven't achieved it . . . . (? .....nah)
OR do some people need to believe that the only people who have a predisposition to take initiative, are so because they have been damaged? If you don't live in fear it must be that you are full of yourself?
What about the simple drive to create, and to take your best shot?

Anybody else relate to having the hope centered attitude of 3 but wonder about how this gets painted as being superficial or driven? Am I off base to say this system is set up for feelers by feelers? Even if we say motivation IS emotional, there is legitimate emotion from building something or bringing a brain child into the world - apart from sex and social status. Presentation or "orchestra direction" is one form of creativity, not just playing the instrument.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> Sooo I wonder if I've told myself I don't need status because I haven't achieved it . . . . (? .....nah)


 There's a possibility you already have achievements, but you don't recognize them as "status" per se.


> OR do some people need to believe that the only people who have a predisposition to take initiative, are so because they have been damaged?


 That sounds like normal ego-ic desire. Maybe not always "damaged" as much as "disadvantaged". Like growing up poor or you're of a different gender/race.


> If you don't live in fear it must be that you are full of yourself?


 Depends on whether you have the virtue of courage or not. Courage cannot exist without fear.


> What about the simple drive to create, and to take your best shot?


 Yeaup!



> Anybody else relate to having the hope centered attitude of 3 but wonder about how this gets painted as being superficial or driven?


 I have an opposite gendered friend, an sx 3w4, who had been coming out of some string of bad marriages. When I hung out with him, he gave off this vibe like "I'm desperate and want you as a trophy girlfriend" that followed his "I don't have an Asian fetish" statement that sort of ... taught me how the valuable lesson of how to reaction-formation. I know he symbolizes his sense of hope with identification to his motorcycle (and he straight up said that he should probably be getting those needs met by a real person), and he thinks I'm a Macbook Pro or a Wacom Cintiq. I don't know exactly why those things in particular and not other stuff, but I'm going to guess "artistic" and "image" vibes those two items together would give off.

Normally, he has a horrible sense of time. So when he started using time-sensitive words, I start to feel fear. I'm also sx-dom, and I can't help but to be terrified when he said things like "we're just friend for now" or talked about our friendship status in the same sentence with a mention of an ex. The reason this is terrifying is that no where else in his life does he display that kind of ambition, I'm happy just being friends, so it's just blatantly saying he actively wants something more than just friends, but he was in total denial about that too.

Then one day, after him saying a bunch of crazy things like "I love being married but I hate the drama that comes with", "why do girls have to look so good but act so bad", and "you know what they say. All of the good guys are taken. For a chick in IT, the odds are good, but the goods are odd. You'd have to dig through a bunch of guys to find one who isn't crazy", I got fed up and blew up at him. His response was like, "You wanted more than what I could give. I'm sorry to lose a friend". WTF?

So he just completely ignored me for months. Then I got a major battle victory at work that he wasn't able to accomplish before he left. Then he started talking to me again, which made me thought "what did he want from me? oh because I won this he thinks I'm worth talking to again?"

He apologized for treating me badly! Holy crap! These days, he _sounds_ saner and _appears_ to be getting better. I think he admitted to himself that he was lonely because he got a pet dog. We don't talk as much as we used to, but when we do, there's this distinct hint of "I have emotional needs and I don't want to do anything to drive us further apart, so I'm going to talk to you very quickly and leave so that I don't get rejected". Honestly, I don't get it.

I texted him and was like "what does dark night of the soul mean to you?" and he was like "I am lost as to what I'm supposed to do and how to progress". I'm not sure how significant that is or what exactly that means to him, but I hope awareness of it is a sign that he's getting better. Wow, I can tolerate a whole lot of crazy!

And a different three... He's half-Korean, but his mother left when he was very young. Has dreams of opening up his own restaurant business and he likes going to fancy restaurants and take in the food and atmosphere. But somewhere along the way of talking about how he wants to move to the west coast of the US, he mentioned going to South Korea to try out foods there. Hmm... Oh, I also know that he really enjoyed some kind of film class because it explained to him when scenes are shot a certain way, that certain meanings are implied.

For a couple of other male threes I know, hope for them came in the form of winning a custody battle against their ex-wives. They actually did have to make cases in court. And another three at work hopes to be converted from an hourly contractor to full-time salaried worker, but he refuses to jeopardize his image at all, which means he gets exploited at work. I feel bad for him, but he was adamant that he'll be fine handling it. 

I have a 3w4 fix, and in previous relationships, people just projected what they hoped I'd be. Apparently I gave off a "perfect girlfriend" vibe, for good reasons like "worked hard in my relationships" and stupid reasons like "willing to watch My Little Ponies with them so that they could fit in with an internet in-joke about bronies", which really sucks! I just don't get it.

I totally recommend Almaas's Facets of Unity. Holy Hope isn't some egoic desire as much as an assurance that whatever happens, things will be fine.


> Am I off base to say this system is set up for feelers by feelers?


 The system includes considerations for thinkers and people who take actions without excessive thinking or feeling.


> Even if we say motivation IS emotional, there is legitimate emotion from building something or bringing a brain child into the world - apart from sex and social status. Presentation or "orchestra direction" is one form of creativity, not just playing the instrument.


 Shame is the emotion that encourages you to do your best. Genuine pride, and not the vice of pride, is that feeling you get after you've accomplished something. There's nothing wrong with being proud of one's accomplishments as long as people remember that they are more than their accomplishments.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

but . . . . . there is a difference between wanting to do creative work because it is what you most honestly connect with, with the condition of knowing that you have to produce and look the part in order to keep getting the opportunities that let you work in a way that is compatible with use of Ne - Vs somebody who needs attention for being successful or special.

On the one hand I think this system just doesn't allow for the need to be doing creative work as it's own end, because most people (interested in these systems) want to believe that whatever people do other than mate - must have some dark reason.

I'm guessing I've only dated guys who were ones, or twos and they wanted me to feel guilty for . . . . . i don't quite know the hell what.

My only accomplishment is that I know I built and lived (for more than ten years ) off from something I built from nothing. I have almost nothing to show for it at the moment, but I wouldn't want to trade the experience for some other life. It was real for me. Being a two (like most men in my age range expected or something?) would just not have been real for me.

Sooo, I could just say well this system is not all that helpful to me, even if I see how it outlines some patterns I may have seen in some people.

But It also makes me wonder if the answer to getting myself unstuck or moving forward from where I am at the moment, is to full out become the pretentious, superficial greedy bastard people assume a person is, just because i'm a small framed female who doesn't railroad anybody with displays of doo-gooder over-kill.

I'm not saying the system doesn't address "thinkers" but why should thinking necessarily stem from fear and not the thrill of discovery.

I could seem like a one or a nine to people who don't know me well. I'm looking at this stuff (systems) because I've been struggling with how to focus and fine tune an attack to re-position myself, small biz or whatever and . . . . . I dunno in some ways a three going into 9 mode under stress describes me. I'm a 9 if doing a social event or anything social because I expect that I could only bore people. I'm not saying that as a self esteem thing. It was just never my thing in life to be "the entertainment". But social media may require I do something less of a dialog than what face to face selling was. The ENTP thing of needing to work off my environment makes sense to me but when I look at the enneagram thing - I don't know why this bothers me so much.

I finally got a few things worked out about a new website but I guess I'm wondering if I got really clear with some kind of single-mindedness or drawing from raw motivation, I could be running full blast again instead of the fear I do have right now. Fear that isn't characteristic of me, might be how to describe it. 

If I can't demonstrate who I am by doing work that works, I do feel like it will be a type of annihilation. It is quite frustrating to me that I seem to only know people who think work is the thing you do for money and thats all it is. I can't think that way, I would have no reason to live.

I'ts not quite like work is a substitute for relationships, just . . . . c'mon the people I can date, well meaning empty nothingness. I should learn to run some guys drone ass around in circles just so he can feel important or busy about nothing while we wait for death?

I may be dealing with the possibility of shame to come, or a threat of it. But working for yourself . . . . can't see that being like Oh I will be ashamed if . . . . I mean you have to make friends with risk and the possibility you make a fool of yourself. When you win . . . . I don't see it as pride, more like a kind of wholeness, competency that you can keep building on, a place in the world where all the pieces fit. I'ts a sense of belonging and competence, when you get through with a project and it does what it was made for. Pride? I expect some people have no respect for what my work has been. If I'd wanted social status, getting married and prancing around wearing expensive clothes, name dropping brand names of furniture . . .would be the kind of thing I imagine of a person who needs to impress people would care about. It would't have been hard to "accomplish" just brain dead boring, empty politeness mostly.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> but . . . . . there is a difference between wanting to do creative work because it is what you most honestly connect with, with the condition of knowing that you have to produce and look the part in order to keep getting the opportunities that let you work in a way that is compatible with use of Ne - Vs somebody who needs attention for being successful or special.


 There are many outlets for creative work that can offer those opportunities, but sometimes the opportunities those outlets offer are not compatible with someone for some reason. For example, for programming, there's some freedom and flexibility in implementation and aesthetics, and many people find it a good outlet for creative work that allows for honest connection, but then impossible-to-please management comes in and dampens everything.

Limitations inspire creativity, just maybe not in the ways people expect. I see it as a venn-diagram situation, because "somebody who needs attention for being successful for special" leads to getting opportunities with more freedom and flexibility with personal needs and preferences. At the same time, it's perfectly normal and even encouraged within many management philosophies to give people some positive feedback that they're doing well, so that those people get feedback that they're doing well. Many people get demotivated if they're not noticed, not only because of a need to feel successful or special, but because they're not getting feedback, so they don't have any way of knowing how to improve.

I'm assuming that we're talking about the mostly average, "normal" behavior, and not people who are so starved for attention that their lives start revolving around seeking attention for its own sake.



> On the one hand I think this system just doesn't allow for the need to be doing creative work as it's own end, because most people (interested in these systems) want to believe that whatever people do other than mate - must have some dark reason.





> Sooo, I could just say well this system is not all that helpful to me, even if I see how it outlines some patterns I may have seen in some people.


 Oh it does! The heart of the enneagram is about transformation, and art is transformative. Holy Law is about the transformation of the soul! Gurdjieff even wrote music and taught the types as a series of dances! At this point, you may be transitioning more towards the process enneagram (whereas 99% of the stuff discussed in this forum are about the personality enneagram, which is a specific application of the process enneagram). The process enneagram is a lot more open-ended and emphasizes the need to get in touch with your emotions, and there are some people who try to utilize the process enneagram emotionlessly and wonder why they don't get anything.



Bennett said:


> The enneagram is the fundamental hieroglyph of a universal language… a schematic diagram of perpetual motion… that is, of a machine of eternal movement… the same perpetual motion that men have sought since the remotest antiquity and could never find… [because] they sought outside themselves that which was within them.
> 
> The understanding of this symbol and the ability to make use of it gives man very great power. It is perpetual motion and it is also the philosopher’s stone of the alchemists. Everything can be included and read in the enneagram. A man may be quite alone in the desert, and he can trace the enneagram in the sand, and in it read the eternal laws of the universe…
> 
> ...


In which case, I'd recommend this book, Enneagram Studies or The Intelligent Enneagram. For a bridge between the personality and process enneagram, I recommend The Integral Enneagram.



> My only accomplishment is that I know I built and lived (for more than ten years ) off from something I built from nothing. I have almost nothing to show for it at the moment, but I wouldn't want to trade the experience for some other life. It was real for me. Being a two (like most men in my age range expected or something?) would just not have been real for me.


 Personally, my approach to life is "the key to accomplishments is having low standards". My 3w4 friend is a bit more engaged if I talk to him about New Year's resolutions... and when his life was in complete and total ruin, he didn't even bother making them. Trying and failing is still better than not having tried at all, but then again, I learn better from failures than successes. Besides, having things to show as a reflection of one's achievements makes one a target of envy. The most important thing is, it's real to you and no one can take that away from you.



> But It also makes me wonder if the answer to getting myself unstuck or moving forward from where I am at the moment, is to full out become the pretentious, superficial greedy bastard people assume a person is, just because i'm a small framed female who doesn't railroad anybody with displays of doo-gooder over-kill.


 I think the healthy thing to do is to accept that part of you exists, and that to some degree, it's universal to the human condition, and then develop an appreciation for the importance of surfaces. Sometimes what's on the surface tells people a lot of things... it just gets ignored... The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Three - Sacred Deception

For my friend, it's a question of "what do I want?" He doesn't know what he wants, and therefore, doesn't know which direction to go. I wonder if he remembers that there was a light at the end of the tunnel, or whether he's so used to life being miserable since childhood that he doesn't know what true happiness feels like. I feel so very sad for him.



> I'm not saying the system doesn't address "thinkers" but why should thinking necessarily stem from fear and not the thrill of discovery.


 Fear is an emotion, so in a sense, the feeling part isn't neglected. The crazy thing is, according to this article, the emotion of surprise and fear have the same biological roots, except surprise is socially based. And the one enneatype that is most motivated by the thrill of discovery are sevens. However, everyone has all nine types within them, and one of the goals of the enneagram is to discover the how the potentials of all nine types manifest within them. And one can go above and beyond that and create some art out of it. Such art comes from the heart and soul.



> I could seem like a one or a nine to people who don't know me well. I'm looking at this stuff (systems) because I've been struggling with how to focus and fine tune an attack to re-position myself, small biz or whatever and . . . . . I dunno in some ways a three going into 9 mode under stress describes me. I'm a 9 if doing a social event or anything social because I expect that I could only bore people. I'm not saying that as a self esteem thing. It was just never my thing in life to be "the entertainment".


 I wouldn't think of it as "going to nine under stress". Perhaps it's an artifact of outdated teaching, but threes can also go to six under stress too, and it comes off as badly hiding serious trust issues. Can't believe that other people can see where they're coming from, can't trust themselves to make the right decision.

In my three fix, I go to nine when other threes in real life tell me I remind them of themselves when they were younger. There are times in my life where I function as an actual vanity mirror for other threes, and so they can't see my true self (and there's a part of me that gets irritated by that, but ultimately it's not important), they just see their hidden child that they hid away in shame. And life for them became so superficial and jaded. No thanks... 

For my close 3w4 friend though... I'm trying to get him to get in touch with his inner child, but in order to do that, there's a whole lot of mother issues in between. And if he could turn life back around, he'd go back to the beginning of high school and change everything. Oh boy, it's going to be a loooong journey...



> But social media may require I do something less of a dialog than what face to face selling was. The ENTP thing of needing to work off my environment makes sense to me but when I look at the enneagram thing - I don't know why this bothers me so much.
> 
> I finally got a few things worked out about a new website


 Huh... some stars are aligning. Said 3w4 friend is also working on his own business and spent a lot of time tweaking his website, but did not like the social media aspect. Personally, I think advertising is a good creative outlet, but perhaps many people got turned off by the more extreme, obscene, and deceptive parts of advertising that they didn't want to participate in it.



> but I guess I'm wondering if I got really clear with some kind of single-mindedness or drawing from raw motivation, I could be running full blast again instead of the fear I do have right now. Fear that isn't characteristic of me, might be how to describe it.


 Anxiety?



> If I can't demonstrate who I am by doing work that works, I do feel like it will be a type of annihilation. It is quite frustrating to me that I seem to only know people who think work is the thing you do for money and thats all it is. I can't think that way, I would have no reason to live.


 Yeah... I can understand people wanting to work in an area that they're passionate in. There are creative outlets at work for me, but I still appreciate the barrier between "work" and "play". Personally, if I turn something fun into work, then it stops being fun, and I have less motivation to continue with it. So I work in order to fund the things I do as my hobbies, and I have hobbies that can get expensive.

It sounds like you're looking for work that is personally meaningful. For my friend, it's not enough that something works, because lots of things work, but his product needs to stand out. So his product ideas are focused on the differentiation factor, what his things can do that no other products can. And if you're in software, superficial presentation is actually a big barrier to getting things to work; there are a lot of things that can be improved and streamlined in the UI alone. Good god, think of all of the programs with clunky, hard-to-use interfaces with things labelled unintuitively. And suddenly, I remember that he wanted me to help him design art and icons for his website and products... That explains the Macbook Pro/Wacom Cintiq, but still not sure whether that's a real need or him being indirect about his dating needs.



> I'ts not quite like work is a substitute for relationships, just . . . . c'mon the people I can date, well meaning empty nothingness. I should learn to run some guys drone ass around in circles just so he can feel important or busy about nothing while we wait for death?


 Haha, in Susan Rhode's The Positive Enneagram, she said that 3w4s are more likely than 3w2s to sacrifice their personal relationships to the God of Work. And I was like "oops".

The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Three - Sacred Discipline



> I may be dealing with the possibility of shame to come, or a threat of it. But working for yourself . . . . can't see that being like Oh I will be ashamed if . . . . I mean you have to make friends with risk and the possibility you make a fool of yourself. When you win . . . . I don't see it as pride, more like a kind of wholeness, competency that you can keep building on, a place in the world where all the pieces fit. I'ts a sense of belonging and competence, when you get through with a project and it does what it was made for. Pride? I expect some people have no respect for what my work has been. If I'd wanted social status, getting married and prancing around wearing expensive clothes, name dropping brand names of furniture . . .would be the kind of thing I imagine of a person who needs to impress people would care about. It would't have been hard to "accomplish" just brain dead boring, empty politeness mostly.


 Nine's basic desire is to become whole, and that's a universal desire, just dressed up differently for the other eight types. I think I brought up those words in terms of self-esteem. I think it's healthy to become invested in the birth and outcome of one's work, regardless of whether it's a success or failure. Personal pride in a job well done; it doesn't need to show off. Or at least, personal pride in knowing that I've done the best I can. Spending too much time on meaningless work makes me feel hollow and empty, and I start getting bored and fidgety, and there isn't enough movement to keep me engaged. Emotions are about meaning, and I'm a very emotional person, but it comes off as "intellectual".

For me though, the shame is that I'm a "nobody". It's not too horrible for me, because I like the freedom it implies. If I'm a nobody, then I can be anybody. Jack of all trades, master of none. For my friend though, I think he's still looking for his true self. But I'm adamant that there's no "one" "true" self... it goes through transformation like every other parts of life. If you replace everything of a car, is it still the same car as the original car?

The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Three - Sacred Confidence


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Sorry about the rambling. Enneagram bugs me. Soo if it bugs me I'm thinking there must be something here to be bugged about, (maybe) that if I figure out why it irks me it will help me be more focused in my second act or whatever this new phase of life or something like that.

I may not be 3 or 4 at all. I'm struggling with not being able to separate methods from motive - and enneagram is motive? I don't think I have trouble with making decisions when I see specifics placed before me, or when I see a possible architecture and possibilities of specific life situations near me, or something sparks my attention. But core motivation in a consistent abstract pattern? I see these enneagram themes in other people (some) but not in myself. I read these descriptions and see a little of myself in all 9 types, depending on the situation.

I could be a 6 with 7 or 7 with 6, or I would be a 7 but I know I'm not good at everything so I'd rather not disperse myself in too many directions at the same time. Yet this is the exact problem I have right now. If a personal brand marketing campaign is functionally necessary, (real world financial future) I have to bring it into sharper focus. A half-assed dispersed attempt to throw myself out into freelancing on everything that might interest me - or taking whatever would be the first job I could get - would be disaster. I have zeroed in on a few skills, but the world as it is today requires me to "produce content". What I've noticed is that "brands" that employ high skill but stay educational in a purely impersonal way - have a harder time with loyalty, subscribers etc.

In the old face to face way of doing things, I didn't think of clothing as self expression, more like a non-uniform uniform (as one example). I could just do what makes me seem normal or trustworthy (appropriate) and "respectable" to get in the door. I'm freaking out over the idea that my effectiveness in the past was partly an ability to be non self conscious and the name of the game today, might be that everybody needs to take deliberate care to project themselves as a brand. Irony is that branding was part of what I did professionally - not a problem when I can take stock of others or groups or organizations. But I have this feeling that even if people are generally nice to me, there is a terrible mismatch between what is assumed at the superficial level, and anything for me to build on. I was (in my old biz and maybe personal life too) able to do relationships on a procedural non personal level and my work was the personal real part. If I end up with a shit job I just don't care about life anymore. But to have satisfying work that pays enough I might have to fabricate a personality first?

@cir hey thanks for the informative post above, we may have been posting at near the same time or else i overlooked it but I'm going to dig into it right now.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

cir said:


> For me though, the shame is that I'm a "nobody". It's not too horrible for me, because I like the freedom it implies. If I'm a nobody, then I can be anybody. Jack of all trades, master of none. For my friend though, I think he's still looking for his true self. But I'm adamant that there's no "one" "true" self... it goes through transformation like every other parts of life. If you replace everything of a car, is it still the same car as the original car?
> 
> The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Three - Sacred Confidence


Yes, i expect that for the most part in day to day going about living my life - most people don't know I exist and I'm fine with that. If anybody was observing my life and trying to peg me as anything, I would wonder why they don't have a compelling life of their own.

It's like I shift into 9 mode for most of the background, filler, and day to day routine basics, but I have another operation mode for engagement. I am one or the other. Go with the flow or else play to win. It's not that I feel bad if I loose, but I can't unsee whatever I believe is the best shot and the desired outcome. It may not always be my own desired outcome but if people say they want something and then act in opposition to what they say - this is what I like about business, do it or don't do it.

But that's where I am with my life. It's fine to evolve and modify but if you make a weak arbitrary presentation to begin with it will be a waste of time. This ends up having been a problem with relationships because "I don't care". It's not that I don't care but i have no goals for relationship, 9 mode. I can't do the two mode because it seems a little silly to me, something others need to tell themselves when in reality there are many ways to handle things. I'm happy to help people if they have some thread of commitment to something they want, and I see some way to fix or make something happen.


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Type. 1, The perfectionist at their best
Type. 2, The helper how do you do
Type. 3, Who to be depends on thee 
Type. 4, There was more, to be unique what a feat 
Type. 5, Analyse this, To understand truly grand
Type. 6, A wish, to be this 
Type. 7, True heaven the external lesson 
Type. 8, To be great acceptance my place 
Type. 9, There was time

Some light one liners


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Wow @cir , books you mentioned . . . . . does this link do well for a quick summary or does it veer off to it's own thing? The chart at the bottom makes more sense if you read each numerical section above it. It might describe your friends stage of process - the dark night of the soul, getting to point 6 in a project. Not sure what I think of all this yet but it is quite something to consider! Thank you for all your input above.

http://www.enneagramdimensions.net/articles%5Creconciling_personality_with_process.pdf


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> Sorry about the rambling. Enneagram bugs me. Soo if it bugs me I'm thinking there must be something here to be bugged about, (maybe) that if I figure out why it irks me it will help me be more focused in my second act or whatever this new phase of life or something like that.


 It's ok. My suggestion would be to look into some of those books and perhaps you'll come across a reason why it bugs you. And it should; in the process enneagram, some imperfections were purposefully inserted to test to see if you could read the symbol! But it requires the use of an imagination. *spongebob makes a rainbow* If I were a perfectionistic person, I would expect three complete triangles as well.



> I may not be 3 or 4 at all. I'm struggling with not being able to separate methods from motive - and enneagram is motive? I don't think I have trouble with making decisions when I see specifics placed before me, or when I see a possible architecture and possibilities of specific life situations near me, or something sparks my attention. But core motivation in a consistent abstract pattern? I see these enneagram themes in other people (some) but not in myself. I read these descriptions and see a little of myself in all 9 types, depending on the situation.


 The enneagram is about motives. Well the purpose of the enneagram is to figure out which type you really are, and once you've identified and worked through those problems, explore how the other eight types manifest in you. I would also recommend this book Maitri's Spiritual Dimension. Riso/Hudson books are easily accessible, but people use them as stereotyping tools than understanding the core mechanics of the type.



> I could be a 6 with 7 or 7 with 6, or I would be a 7 but I know I'm not good at everything so I'd rather not disperse myself in too many directions at the same time.


 There is a part of you that is six and a part of you that is seven simultaneously. Seriously, the triangle types are the hardest to type because they tend to see aspects of all of the types within themselves, so it's hard to just decide on one.



> Yet this is the exact problem I have right now. If a personal brand marketing campaign is functionally necessary, (real world financial future) I have to bring it into sharper focus. A half-assed dispersed attempt to throw myself out into freelancing on everything that might interest me - or taking whatever would be the first job I could get - would be disaster. I have zeroed in on a few skills, but the world as it is today requires me to "produce content". What I've noticed is that "brands" that employ high skill but stay educational in a purely impersonal way - have a harder time with loyalty, subscribers etc.
> 
> In the old face to face way of doing things, I didn't think of clothing as self expression, more like a non-uniform uniform (as one example). I could just do what makes me seem normal or trustworthy (appropriate) and "respectable" to get in the door. I'm freaking out over the idea that my effectiveness in the past was partly an ability to be non self conscious and the name of the game today, might be that everybody needs to take deliberate care to project themselves as a brand. Irony is that branding was part of what I did professionally - not a problem when I can take stock of others or groups or organizations. But I have this feeling that even if people are generally nice to me, there is a terrible mismatch between what is assumed at the superficial level, and anything for me to build on. I was (in my old biz and maybe personal life too) able to do relationships on a procedural non personal level and my work was the personal real part. If I end up with a shit job I just don't care about life anymore. But to have satisfying work that pays enough I might have to fabricate a personality first?
> 
> @cir hey thanks for the informative post above, we may have been posting at near the same time or else i overlooked it but I'm going to dig into it right now.


 That sounds like a dilemma of the changing times. *nods* It's not so much that I "fabricate" a personality as much as... use my normal personality and put on a persona or personality "makeup" to hide some work-inappropriate things and put the focus on more work-appropriate things. It's not to say that I don't have those work-inappropriate features; it's that I know the boundaries between work and play. It's funny how some people consider all of that to be putting on a "fake self" and others call it "social expectations" and "manners". It's not a "fake self", it's more like how in theater, makeup looks best from a distance if it's applied in an exaggerated manner... otherwise it's hard to tell that it's on. The only relevant fear here is that sometimes people get very lost into their role and forgot who their "real selves" are. Like method acting.



Old Intern said:


> Yes, i expect that for the most part in day to day going about living my life - most people don't know I exist and I'm fine with that. If anybody was observing my life and trying to peg me as anything, I would wonder why they don't have a compelling life of their own.


 I wonder the same thing about kpop idol stalkers.



> It's like I shift into 9 mode for most of the background, filler, and day to day routine basics, but I have another operation mode for engagement. I am one or the other. Go with the flow or else play to win. It's not that I feel bad if I loose, but I can't unsee whatever I believe is the best shot and the desired outcome. It may not always be my own desired outcome but if people say they want something and then act in opposition to what they say - this is what I like about business, do it or don't do it.
> 
> But that's where I am with my life. It's fine to evolve and modify but if you make a weak arbitrary presentation to begin with it will be a waste of time.


 I believe in the power if iterative improvements. I guess it depends on your definition of "arbitrary". A weak presentation, gauge feedback, compare to desired results, and adjust presentation.



> This ends up having been a problem with relationships because "I don't care". It's not that I don't care but i have no goals for relationship, 9 mode. I can't do the two mode because it seems a little silly to me, something others need to tell themselves when in reality there are many ways to handle things. I'm happy to help people if they have some thread of commitment to something they want, and I see some way to fix or make something happen.


 Yeap. And because if the other person do not fix their life problems, it'll just be a drag on me. I'll just nurse my connections one by one, since many of them aren't just personal friends, but because it's easier to change jobs if I know someone who works there. Strong incentive to not burn bridges.

And to your last post: Yes, that link does a good, very short summary. Susan Rhodes is the author of The Integral Enneagram and the Positive Enneagram. She's one of the newer authors and I like her insights. I copied a short chapter regarding the nadir here. 3w4s have more susceptibility to that "dark night of the soul" than 3w2s.

Good luck! :happy:


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Your friends concern about social media may be similar to mine. Creativity is fun, and having a work persona is not too hard but social media, done badly, is just so . . . . . agh. On the one hand some people tell you what they had for breakfast, and the other end is just too sterile, or academic and without personality. Face to face you can make it be about the other person.

Thanks again, I'm reading your above link now.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Okay, after reading about the process enneagram, I still say there is a thinker feeler gap on how personality Enneagram is divided up or explained/interpreted.

You could say maybe the distinction helps, to see the difference between stature or status, but I don't think that does it. A process enneagram does nothing to address an emotion or gut motivation name for that spark that comes from learning (combined with imagination).

For example, Einstein, with his thousands of things that he found that didn't work. Maybe a feeler or a very extroverted person, would imagine that the whole time Albert was slaving away, hating his life, but dreaming of the day he would get his Nobel prize? I don't think so.

I don't think you can quite fit that into perfectionism either, or nurturing, or competition for survival, or fear. You could say curiosity but not the way sevens are described.

Anyone want to comment on Einstein's Enneagram type, and why?


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> Okay, after reading about the process enneagram, I still say there is a thinker feeler gap on how personality Enneagram is divided up or explained/interpreted.


 I can find agreement with this, but could you elaborate? I'd like to understand it a bit more from your perspective.



> You could say maybe the distinction helps, to see the difference between stature or status, but I don't think that does it. A process enneagram does nothing to address an emotion or gut motivation name for that spark that comes from learning (combined with imagination).


 Inspiration? Like when the light bulb turns on? Is it an emotional state or a mental state?


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

cir said:


> I can find agreement with this, but could you elaborate? I'd like to understand it a bit more from your perspective.
> 
> Inspiration? Like when the light bulb turns on? Is it an emotional state or a mental state?


Inspiration might be something that happens as a part of mental processes, but the motivation to pursue situations that make the place for engagement of intensive mental challenge - or the draw toward, the need for mental stimulation and the unknown, the energy that happens on the edge of discoveries - that is something emotional, rewarding in it's own right - not as a means to social recognition or material rewards.

The commitment level of Einstein is where I say - there was a reward that might be dampened if no success was ever found but success was facilitative, and the the reward was in fulfilling the need for that level of challenge and full engagement. It's not as if he was about his business meeting other needs and accidentally got his answers, the commitment had to be there.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Having these all in one place seemed so handy to look at enneagram catagorical distinctions. Forgive me if this is a little self indulgent. These all following the same format - makes for easy reading thanks to Timeless' work.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-1-forum-reformer/65601-type-one-reformer-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-forum-helper/65602-type-two-helper-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-forum-achiever/65603-type-three-achiever-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...-four-individualist-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-f...e-five-investigator-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...e-six-loyal-skeptic-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...pe-seven-enthusiast-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-f...pe-eight-challenger-timeless-description.html
http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...ype-nine-peacemaker-timeless-description.html

Okay so according to this system I would have to pick between an emotional base motivator of anger, fear, or shame? Sooo if I had to pick one it would have to be shame. Fear and anger carry the assumption that my fate or well being rests on protection from being done unto instead of being the doer.

Is this true? most of the human race in today's world is still focused on protection from harm; harm in the sense of predatory outside harm . . . . someone to blame?

So then if my original testing leaning toward a tri-type of 358 (don't remember the order,called a competent 8) although the description seems too grand for me, tritypes level out or balance these emotional triggers?


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