# Type 1 and 6 in terms of super-ego



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

A common theme that shows up when I read descriptions of both these types (I have noticed only in these 2 types) is that they care about being rightful, doing the right thing and they care if others are doing the right thing or not. The difference it seems is that 6's do it out of fear of wrongdoers or wrong deeds that leads to punishment and 1's do it out of trying to make things perfect, trying to be perfect and making other people perfect.

Do you agree with that? And why 2 unrelated types (one is body, the other is head, they are not each other's point of stress or intimacy, etc) have this, I guess I can call it being more on the "super-ego side"?


----------



## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

The head/heart/body triads and the arrow lines are not in general a good guide to which types are similar. Consider that 8 and 9 are both body types but are opposites if anything. So the lack of connection between 1 and 6, two quite similar types, is not an anomaly. There's a theory that people on here used to discuss quite often, that doesn't come up very often these days, which says that 1, 2 and 6 are all superego types. Type 2 fits that the least, and doesn't really fit at all under Naranjo's definition of the type (it's Riso/Hudson's 2 that's more superego). In the subtypes, there's a 1 that looks like a 6 (the self-preservation 1) and a 6 that looks like a 1 (the social 6) and, along with type 5, are the types that have the sexual subtype as the countertype. 

Anyway, I agree that 1 and 6 have something significant in common. As one anecdotal example, 1 and 6 are two of the types I've been considering for myself; I relate quite well to the idea of being superego-driven, and I find that the two types aren't really capturing different sides of me; they're essentially describing more or less the same aspect of my personality, if that makes sense. I'll be interested to find out what people say about similarities/differences between them.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Jul 31, 2016)

Your subtype is key indicator on your main type, plus you have parental orientation that may be hard to pick a part, but is helpful. I think the 1 and the 6 similarities go back to that the 1 had a negative authorities relationship and the 6 had a positive authorities relationship. From this it makes sense that both types are concerned with doing the right thing with such strong opinions on authority. This would apply to the 2 as well, but a 2 doesn't go about it the same way. You look at 1v6 habits and it's crazy similar.


----------



## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Felipe said:


> The difference it seems is that 6's do it out of fear of wrongdoers or wrong deeds that leads to punishment and 1's do it out of trying to make things perfect, trying to be perfect and making other people perfect.


IME, there's a certain variation of type 6 that I believe you're talking about (not all type 6 variations). I identify it with 6w5. Traditionally it seems to be identified with Social 6 as the "duty" subtype. Here's how I think of it.

6w5 (or Social 6 subtype as often described) feels a sense of what's right/wrong being imposed from the external (collective or authority) while type 1 feels that from the internal (self). With the externalized superego there's often a sense of not always knowing what's expected yet still having to deal with that (leading to an ongoing anxiety that you may be doing something wrong in someone's eyes). With the internalized superego there seems to be a more definite sense of what's right/wrong (leading to an attitude of "I know" what's right/wrong, making it more self-determined).

Living under the Nazi culture during WWII to me is an extreme illustration of this externalized superego.



Felipe said:


> And why 2 unrelated types (one is body, the other is head, they are not each other's point of stress or intimacy, etc) have this, I guess I can call it being more on the "super-ego side"?


Because the symbol has little to do with the actual experience of type. People tend to see patterns on the symbol, try to find some meaning to those patterns, and then try to generalize that meaning to describe multiple types instead of looking to the actual experience of each type directly.


----------



## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

The basic motivation for everything 6 does is to obtain a sense of security. So in that light, perhaps a 6 may in part follow the rules because it protects them from punishment, but probably moreso because following the rules is more likely to result in stability in the 6's life. The fear of punishment for a 6 is typically less about the actual punishment (pain, suffering, etc.) and more about the unknown factor. A 6 at work probably doesn't particularly fear unpleasant known outcomes (not that they relish them - but they aren't afraid either). They probably _do_ fear the possibility of unknown punishments, and especially getting fired and the instability of not having a job.

I think @enneathusiast explained the superego connection well. As a Social 6 I do feel a sense of duty. It overlaps a lot with love, respect, and empathy/compassion, wanting to make the people important to me proud, as well as with not being great at trusting my "inner knowing" to lead me. It can also manifest in a cp-ish way, wanting to prove to everyone that I'm capable and strong.


----------



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

enneathusiast said:


> Because the symbol has little to do with the actual experience of type. People tend to see patterns on the symbol, try to find some meaning to those patterns, and then try to generalize that meaning to describe multiple types instead of looking to the actual experience of each type directly.


sorry, I got lost on the "symbol" part, what you mean by symbol?


----------



## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Felipe said:


> sorry, I got lost on the "symbol" part, what you mean by symbol?


The enneagram symbol.


----------



## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

I get the feeling I go on about parental orientation too much on this forum, but it's just interesting to me so whatever... In that light I think what 1 and 6 have in common is some sort of marked, strained relationship with the protective or father figure, but 6's are more like a ping pong ball about it... Ie, I want to trust you, but you're [either too strict or too passive.] Don't want to fall back to the nurturing figure and be smothered, though. So basically adult 6's are like ping pong balls with any given person or situation; there are mixed signals being sent because one minute you might be the perfect protective figure, the next you're [either too strict or passive] or too smothering. It's all just very back-and-forth, very push-pull, very indecisive. And it's heady, it's at the center of the head triad; there's this constant mental chatter about what to believe in, and the 6 will invariably have to communicate their doubts across to someone or other. And unless they are very healthy what they tend to have is a committee of people they communicate with regarding varying topics, simply because it's hard for them to place too much faith in any one person. Eg, you over here will understand this predicament, but you over there will be more inclined to sympathize with this one.

The 1 is looking for some kind of authority, too, but that ping-pong quality is just _not_ there; I agree with the point about how it's basically a more internalized kind of authority. For whatever reason the protective figure was not someone the 1 felt could provide adequate structure, and so they become their own authority on right and wrong. They probably do view themselves as being heady and objective and lacking in emotion or at least emotional expression, but that isn't the case. They are a rage type but their rage is directed inward...repressed...in order to be as structured and objective and right and ultimately perfect as possible. Whereas the 6 generally comes across contradictory and indecisive, the 1 can come across almost like an ax grinder for what they feel in their gut to be the one right way, albeit through a veil of rationality.

But then I don't want to suggest that 6 never gets angry or anything, just that the energy is different... 1 comes across as though they are on a mission conjured internally, 6 is always reacting against some perceived external threat to their security.


----------



## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

Octavarium said:


> The head/heart/body triads and the arrow lines are not in general a good guide to which types are similar. Consider that 8 and 9 are both body types but are opposites if anything.


The thing is, though, they are similar. Very similar. Think of it this way: 8, 9, and 1 all fall into the gut or rage triad. Now imagine all of that rage flowing outward and you have an image of type 8, imagine all of that rage flowing back inward and you have type 1; ie, one is uber aggressive, the other is uber repressed. Now imagine the rage flowing outward and inward and you have type 9, as it is right at the center of the gut triad. Ie, 9's shield themselves against others' energy while also holding back any excess rage of their own, so unless they are very healthy you are dealing with a hell of a fatigued, withdrawn, almost indolent person.

Now think of type 6 in this light: they are right at the center of the fear triad, so they have got fear being projected outward into the world and back inward at themselves. Unless they become very healthy and achieve "holy faith," you are dealing with someone who has got a hell of a lot of fear and doubt and uncertainty regarding others and themselves, who is severely out of touch with their own inner knowing.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Felipe said:


> A common theme that shows up when I read descriptions of both these types (I have noticed only in these 2 types) is that they care about being rightful, doing the right thing and they care if others are doing the right thing or not. The difference it seems is that 6's do it out of fear of wrongdoers or wrong deeds that leads to punishment and 1's do it out of trying to make things perfect, trying to be perfect and making other people perfect.
> 
> Do you agree with that? And why 2 unrelated types (one is body, the other is head, they are not each other's point of stress or intimacy, etc) have this, I guess I can call it being more on the "super-ego side"?


side note: I'm glad you didn't mention 2, which is a blatant Id type if you read Naranjo.


----------



## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

psyche said:


> The thing is, though, they are similar. Very similar. Think of it this way: 8, 9, and 1 all fall into the gut or rage triad. Now imagine all of that rage flowing outward and you have an image of type 8, imagine all of that rage flowing back inward and you have type 1; ie, one is uber aggressive, the other is uber repressed. Now imagine the rage flowing outward and inward and you have type 9, as it is right at the center of the gut triad. Ie, 9's shield themselves against others' energy while also holding back any excess rage of their own, so unless they are very healthy you are dealing with a hell of a fatigued, withdrawn, almost indolent person.
> 
> Now think of type 6 in this light: they are right at the center of the fear triad, so they have got fear being projected outward into the world and back inward at themselves. Unless they become very healthy and achieve "holy faith," you are dealing with someone who has got a hell of a lot of fear and doubt and uncertainty regarding others and themselves, who is severely out of touch with their own inner knowing.


I'd disagree with this. A more fitting way to put it would be to see where they have permeable boundaries: All gut types to some extent want the world to not affect them. 8s do it by freely pushing back: They don't want to let the world in. An armed garrison who are pretty secure with their walls and guns but quite willing to shoot if need be. 1s, in contrast, fear their own anger and construct a prison for it: It's like they've been put in charge of Lecter, Joker, Jack the Ripper, and other unstable unsavoury characters and made damn sure they aren't going to get out.

For 9s, that prison is underground in some bunker and they're really badly trying to forget that it exists so they can pretend things are just fine even if the inmate count keeps ticking up.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Jul 31, 2016)

psyche said:


> I get the feeling I go on about parental orientation too much on this forum, but it's just interesting to me so whatever... In that light I think what 1 and 6 have in common is some sort of marked, strained relationship with the protective or father figure, but 6's are more like a ping pong ball about it... Ie, I want to trust you, but you're [either too strict or too passive.] Don't want to fall back to the nurturing figure and be smothered, though. So basically adult 6's are like ping pong balls with any given person or situation; there are mixed signals being sent because one minute you might be the perfect protective figure, the next you're [either too strict or passive] or too smothering. It's all just very back-and-forth, very push-pull, very indecisive. And it's heady, it's at the center of the head triad; there's this constant mental chatter about what to believe in, and the 6 will invariably have to communicate their doubts across to someone or other. And unless they are very healthy what they tend to have is a committee of people they communicate with regarding varying topics, simply because it's hard for them to place too much faith in any one person. Eg, you over here will understand this predicament, but you over there will be more inclined to sympathize with this one.
> 
> The 1 is looking for some kind of authority, too, but that ping-pong quality is just _not_ there; I agree with the point about how it's basically a more internalized kind of authority. For whatever reason the protective figure was not someone the 1 felt could provide adequate structure, and so they become their own authority on right and wrong. They probably do view themselves as being heady and objective and lacking in emotion or at least emotional expression, but that isn't the case. They are a rage type but their rage is directed inward...repressed...in order to be as structured and objective and right and ultimately perfect as possible. Whereas the 6 generally comes across contradictory and indecisive, the 1 can come across almost like an ax grinder for what they feel in their gut to be the one right way, albeit through a veil of rationality.
> 
> But then I don't want to suggest that 6 never gets angry or anything, just that the energy is different... 1 comes across as though they are on a mission conjured internally, 6 is always reacting against some perceived external threat to their security.


Hehe, 9...parental orientation: 9s understand the importance of parenting relations better than anyone, at least in a the most non corrupted way.


----------



## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> side note: I'm glad you didn't mention 2, which is a blatant Id type if you read Naranjo.


3 and 4 both feel more superego to me than 2 does. Not sure if it's just the competency focus throwing me off for 3, though.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Stellafera said:


> 3 and 4 both feel more superego to me than 2 does. Not sure if it's just the competency focus throwing me off for 3, though.


3 is very superego in my opinion. 4s just seem superego because they hate themselves :laughing:


----------



## Mad Scientist (Jul 31, 2016)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 3 is very superego in my opinion. 4s just seem superego because they hate themselves :laughing:


When I think of a superego, I think of an ego that really controls the person, more than the person feeding the ego. Like 1 or 6 will sacrifice themselves, because their superego may bring them to that point. Since 3s have an ego based off self image, they really have confidence in themselves and not ideas/security.


----------



## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 3 is very superego in my opinion. 4s just seem superego because they hate themselves :laughing:


This is highly consistent with the fact that if you ask people "What's the most stereotypically anal, neurotic, and overcritical tritype?", everyone's gonna say 136, not 126 or 146.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Stellafera said:


> This is highly consistent with the fact that if you ask people "What's the most stereotypically anal, neurotic, and overcritical tritype?", everyone's gonna say 136, not 126 or 146.


yes. 136 (especially Sx-last) is basically what people think of when they think stereotypical conservative SJ parents.


----------



## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

The way I see this, 1 and 6 are both "Superego" types and both over-align with their Superego and take it too seriously. The difference lies in what the Superego is telling the types to avoid and whether the content of the Superego is imposed onto one's surroundings. 

One place to part the sea is to consider that both 1's and 6's frequently experience Superego-driven inner tension in the form of "not enough." However, for 6's "not enough" means not having enough information to be sure, not enough certainty to not worry and be at peace, doubting that what they currently know is enough, questioning that what they know is true. For 1's, "not enough" means "not good enough," which is shorthand for saying that the 1 is attitudinally pitted against something else. This is the Head/Gut divide, in Head types never believing they can be completely sure they will be okay, and Gut types habitually approaching their experiences from the standpoint from whether they accept or not accept/stand against. 6's need to use their Gut center to actually stand against something through activity, as warning others on what could go wrong don't innately challenge or reform something on its own. 1's need to use their Head center to think about what could go wrong or become dangerous, because simply disapproving and standing against something doesn't entail active thinking and won't throw up the red flag of danger.

To return to Superego-specific differences, when I think of "rightness" for 6's I think of only very specific types of 6. These 6's (typically 6w5 and frequently ISTP/ESTP/ISTJ/INTJ) are the ones who preempt preventative measures to help guarantee security, often without caring much about who they align with or whether they are accepted by authorities. They are extremely precise and detailed as 1's are, but dot i's and cross t's more to eliminate risks and account for unexpected consequences more than to meet an inner standard. They use measured language like "I suspect," or "can't be sure but is likely." Their "shoulds" and "oughts" relate to how sure they are, not so much what others are wrong for not doing. Their sense of rightness isn't a hard and fast right, and aside from warning others isn't usually imposed on other people in a judgmental way for not doing it the way the 6 did. 

Rightness for 1's is driven by wanting be accepted and tolerated, and to keep oneself aligned with a dignified, respectable, ideals-driven self image. 1's can be largely oblivious to potential outside dangers, as the bigger ongoing threats for them are the urges of their Id, and how to redirect or otherwise mask unacceptable manifests of their animalistic side. The Superego of a 1 deals more with temptation, channeling raw energy into acceptable activity, pressing back anger and body wants, denying self needs, and pushing the 1 to be their own village elder and do the "right" thing to earn their rights to a self image of being "good." They usually speak more in terms of what must be done to fix something (in their opinion) that is wrong. Their "shoulds" and "oughts" are more in terms of what should be something different than it is, or what one ought to do to be "right." They speak more in terms of what they disapprove of and what action to take to correct it. It's usually an inflexible, imposing "right" that would confront/move against you if you disagreed.


----------



## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Stellafera said:


> 3 and 4 both feel more superego to me than 2 does. Not sure if it's just the competency focus throwing me off for 3, though.


Regarding 2 and 3... 

Well, to start, I think it's important to point out that the concepts of ego/id/superego and the Enneagram were developed in relative isolation of each other, so the alignments aren't perfect. It's awesome to get three perfect triads that relate to each psychic orientation, but I don't think it's very precise - better used as a shortcut for understanding than with the assumption that it's the underpinning of each type. 

So regarding 2 and 3, I think I do understand why 2 is identified as superego versus 3. It is important to note that ego encapsulates and moderates between both superego and id; ego does not entail lack of superego, but conscious mediation of superego. 

3s are driven by image-consciousness and an idea of what they "should" be, in superego fashion, but 3s do not tend to entirely deny their id impulses (pleasure drives). Rather, 3s tend to _transform_ those drives into socially-celebrated manifestations of their drives: aggression into being a prizewinning boxer or successful corporate executive; sexuality into being especially attractive per the conventions of their culture. 

2s on the other hand are more likely to subvert their own drives and to instead channel them into what they perceive others needing, attempting to meet their own id impulses by encouraging healthy development of those impulses in others. So 2s sort of "give away" their id, and therefore tend to do less balanced egoic mediation, tending to overemphasize their superego and sweep away their id. This is not to say that 2s - particularly 2w3s - do not have or respond to ego or id - just to say that their psyche tends to respond more to superego direction, and that they tend to feel most rewarded when they are framing their behavior in a superegoic light (_I am helping ___ by _____).


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

In my personal experience, 6s and 1s have vastly different motivations as to how their superego works, and I think this thread also suffers from a clear outline of what is meant by "superego" in the first place. First of all, I think every type has awareness of their superego (a 4 for example thinking they are useless is a superego scolding), but again in my personal experience, 6s at least, and probably 1s too, seem to be more naturally aware of their superego and have more of a constant dialogue with their superego and they feel a stronger need to comply with their superego demands than that of other types'. So when I think of superego compliance here, it's more in terms of frequency of superego awareness. 

So for 6, the superego keeps scolding the 6 for not performing enough, because 6s think that if they simply do X task well enough and are recognized for that, people will like them more. 6s intrinsically desire to be liked and recognized by their community and when they are accepted into the community, 6 has gained the security which they seek. The intrinsic security desire for 6 lies in its connection to people and society, but the subtype simply affects how the 6 will accomplish that e.g. an sp type will focus more on their health and physical stability because if you have money and a house for example, you may be seen as an independent and accomplished person which will make people appreciate your fastidious attitude and thus you will be more liked and create a strong connection to people around you. 6s always mirror the images around them like that based on what they think people expect or want out of them, so typical for the 6 superego is that the 6 keeps comparing themselves to an ideal image of what they think it means to be the "perfectly likable person" and the superego scolds them when they experience themselves to not live up to that image. 

With 1, the superego is constantly comparing to an inner standard of what is more right or perfect and scolds the 1 for being unable to live up to that standard. So what is typical for 1 is how the 1 may suppress personal needs and desires, or as Maitri loosely refers it as, life force, in favor of doing what is right e.g. it is wrong to eat too much cake. This self-suppression is what leads to the inner tension of the type and the subsequent emotion of resentment as the 1 tries to balance between doing what is right and to simply give in to simpler pleasurable desires. A typical impression I have of 1s is that they usually want to come across as really hard-working individuals in the sense that they experience themselves to do do things with a bit more effort than that of others', that they are simply a bit more intrinsically competent and that is because they choose to give up a lot of things that pertain to pleasure. I find that 1s also often resent that others don't seem to pay more attention to this particular aspect of their character and take the quality of work of the 1 too much for granted.

Compared to a 6, they want appreciation because they try more and put more heart into what they do, which could or could not result in greater accomplishments and quality of work. 6s do seek to come across as competent though, though they suffer a lot less from the life force blocking that is typical of 1s. 

In general, being in touch with one's life force is more of an id thing, hence 2s are cited as superego compliant as well, because they too very often go against satiating their needs and desires in favor of pleasing another person, whereas 3s, 7s and 8s are deemed id-compliant if you will, because they are much more in touch going with their own desires in a short-term pleasure sense. 
.


----------

