# Am I a bad person?



## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

LoveAshley said:


> A woman's choice of clothes is nothing like someone choice to walk around with an AR15.


How is it not? They're both conveying a message and they are both legal to do (well AR-15 depends on the local laws but it's legal here). It's your right to express yourself but with that right comes the responsibility of being able to deal with the reactions. I'm not saying a person should put up with constant harassment but it's not sexual harassment if a guy does a double take to see what is being displayed.


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## Sidoba (Jun 13, 2013)

LoveAshley said:


> A woman's choice of clothes is nothing like someone choice to walk around with an AR15.
> 
> Basically all of your points boil down to this idea: You are trying to police what women wear for personal reasons, place them into this tiny box of things you find socially acceptable to wear based on what "provokes" certain behavior by men. Do you really think this is ok?
> 
> Edit: Also, looking is one thing. Most women won't mind if a guy glances at how she looks. But when he opens his mouth and says something sexual without knowing for a fact whether or not she's take it as a compliment, that's when he's overstepping his boundaries.


Question for ya.. What contact would you consider acceptable if you were the woman described in the OP (assuming the intentions of the guy were not our of sexual frustration, shaming, etc.)?


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

If I were the tight pants girl at the vending machine, I would hope that any attracted or interested guy would come over and introduce himself to me, maybe ask my name and how I am doing, and basically be courteous like anyone would in any other given situation.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

LoveAshley said:


> If I were the tight pants girl at the vending machine, I would hope that any attracted or interested guy would come over and introduce himself to me, maybe ask my name and how I am doing, and basically be courteous like anyone would in any other given situation.


Which is to be expected and everyone should be civil. Now would you be offended if you were at a vending machine and some guy was obviously staring over at you but didn't come up and say anything because maybe they were too shy?


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## la_revolucion (May 16, 2013)

Ugh, I'm not surprised this thread is still dragging on. It's so annoying how obsessed society, and the entire world really, is about making sure women aren't "sluts" and "whores." Especially when it comes to how they dress. We have got some regular morality police wannabes on this thread. What several people have said I can see echoed from the mouths of more extreme individuals: 



> By God, I stood by and witnessed the incident, the woman does not have an atom of modesty. Her face was only covered by a transparent veil over her mouth. She also had a lot of make-up on. In addition to her wearing an abaya accentuating her waist, very similar to a dress. She had her mobile’s earphones in and she was reeling and swaying in front of the men. The CPVPV advised her politely and respectfully. Suddenly she raged against them and started screaming until everyone heard her cries.


Source.

It doesn't really matter what we women wear because somebody somewhere is going to be bitching about it. Too bad people can't just mind their own business and treat everyone with respect no matter what they are wearing. Nah, that asks too much from people.


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

PowerShell said:


> Which is to be expected and everyone should be civil. Now would you be offended if you were at a vending machine and some guy was obviously staring over at you but didn't come up and say anything because maybe they were too shy?


A quick glance or two wouldn't bother me, but if he was obviously ogling, especially at a certain part of my body, I would find it inappropriate.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

626Stitch said:


> Its unfortunate that I have a high sex drive but am not a vry social or personable person.


This is off-topic but IME virgins think they have a high sex drive, when once they start having sex it'll probably be average.

The truth IME the people most likely to be truly obsessed besieged by sexual desires are porn addicts, or people to don't have sex regularly. Because it's artificially stimulated, or they aren't getting it.


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## Cappuccino (Aug 14, 2012)

@PlsTryAgain You made me laugh so hard!! :laughing:

My opinion is that girls that dress well/sexy do it for attention no matter what. Whether its to please guys, impress their girlfriends or boost their own ego and feel amazing, its still for attention. So why not expect a wide range of attention? I don't personally get why girls have to bitch about getting compliments about their body. In my experience, of the girls that are good looking and dress to show it, the ones that bitch about guys hitting on them do it nonstop because they actually like it. Its like saying, "hey girls, my ass is the best because I got three guys hitting on me, now aren't you envious?" But they don't feel like a brag when they put it in a negative light. 

Every girl knows what attracts men sexually just as a guy knows how to attract a girl.. there's no secret, you know what's attractive and you can't change peoples' reactions to you so get over it or change the way you dress if you ACTUALLY don't like it. I used to wear pants so thin and tight, they looked painted on. I really did find them more comfortable on top of the fact that I had a great ass. And being insecure, I liked the positive affirmation. I liked a guy that complimented me or gave me a teasing pinch or flick and never counted that sexual assault. However I hated getting guys ask me to get in my pants. After weighing the pros and cons I stopped wearing them. 
There IS actually a social norm of what's acceptable and what's immodest. I won't wear that kind of pant anymore because of the kind of attention I got.. you can't always live your life expecting the other person to take all the responsibility, its ridiculous. You lock your door at night to lower the chances of being attacked or robbed, you don't go down dark alleys alone. You have the right to.. heck, you have the right to set your money on a park bench and walk away. Rape will always be the rapist's fault just like a robbery and any other crime. However, you should at least tell yourself, "wow, that was irresponsible on my part." In this culture everyone wants to shift the blame and the immaturity is astounding.

Now, if I wear tight jeans, I expect looks and comments and I'm super sweet to the guys as long as I can tell their motives are honest and kind. I really appreciate a man's form when he's muscular in a tight t-shirt. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I'M SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO HIM. But I appreciate any guy.. or girl for that fact that just plain looks da*m good!! And what's wrong with giving them affirmation and telling them so??

My advice is don't say anything if you're not planning on saying it in a kind way. If you honestly think it would do good to tell her she shouldn't wear that, just do it. I've gotten that before and what happened? I stopped wearing it.  But you have to say it in a kind way so she'll listen. And if you want to pay her a compliment.. just do it!!


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

@PowerShell - about the fashion statement: A few years back, it was pretty much impossible to find women's pants that were not cut low on the hip and shirts that didn't end in the same spot. I don't even know how many frustrating hours I spent on trying to find women's pants and shirts that were not for "old ladies", but still allowed movement without flashing everyone. All my female friends at work complained about the same thing, so this fashion trend wasn't just affecting me.
If you lived in the US during this period, you would probably not only remember thongs peeking out over the jean waistbands, but also some definite flab hang in some instances. I am guessing that neither flash was intentional.
I am not saying that the consumer doesn't have the final say in what she/he wears, but sometimes the designers & fashion department buyers do not have a realistic view of what actual women want to buy & wear.

In regards to tight-fitting pants; I am one of those women who has a very narrow waist combined with a fairly generous bottom, so called pear shape. :dry::laughing: This is also a source of constant frustration - do I pick pants that are huge in the waist (like clown pants - I could always get suspenders, I guess), or do I get pants that hug my ass? See, the fashion industry often assumes that all of us have the same body shape. (Add to that the fact that a woman's clothes size can fluctuate quite a bit over the month due to water retention etc and your pants can actually go from lose to snug with the moon phase). I generally pick the butt-huggers (pants, that is).
This is true for men as well; my husband has only one store he can buy khakis in, because he is tall and slender and most stores don't even bother getting in his size. He pretty much has to hit the store at the same day the fresh shipment of khakis come in, because all men with his build will stalk that same store to get their hands on pants that fit them too. He seriously has to order his soccer cleats (?) on-line too, because his feet are too big, I guess. He pretty much never gets to buy pants or shoes on sale...


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

PlsTryAgain said:


> I'm gonna do a horrible thing here, and say that as a woman, I gotta be honest.


Props on the honesty.

The arguments from some women, that women in general don't dress in a way that accentuates their anatomy for positive sexual responses, I suspect is garbage.

I'm not saying all women do, but I've been to bars and clubbing enough times to know that many women do dress, move and act in a way to get male sexual attention. 

Too many in those bars and clubs seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. Some want the attention, and then act outraged or bitchy when men attempt to chat them up. They want the attention on their terms, human responses don't work like that. Acting outraged or bitchy that a man responds to your gyrating on his dick (I've witnessed this many, many times) as an invitation to being chatted up by him, is moronic or bitchy.

Anyone who hasn't seen the above has probably never been people watching at nightclubs and bars. Or is a liar.

I think a man has to use their social intelligence to decide if a woman will be receptive to a compliment about their body. It's not a black and white, yes and no as some posters want to make out IME and IMO. 

I've been around guys who have made the most crude compliments to women, and women have responded positively. Hell I've been with friends, and when we were 'caught' checking out a girls ass, she saw us and was clearly flattered by the attention and stayed bent over for a prolonged period (this was not in a nightclub). The idea that no woman will respond positively to overt sexual attention and sexual compliments is garbage. But again, it requires a high level of social intelligence and social skills to do it in a way that won't be taken as an offense.

Ladies... Feminists...

The reality is that non-demisexual hetero/bi/pan men in general are aroused visually and by the female anatomy (research backs this up). So women this is the social reality whether you like it or not: If you dress in a way that compliments or accentuates your anatomy, you're going to get sexual attention from men. 

So you can either have social intelligence and manage that probability, or you have a narcissistic disregard for the social implications of your appearance. Men will look at you, compliment you, or try to chat you up if you dress in a way that makes your body look appealing visually.

(Ofc I'm not saying that *all* women dress in a way that compliments their body for male attention.)


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## PlsTryAgain (Dec 14, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> (Ofc I'm not saying that *all* women dress in a way that compliments their body for male attention.)


Walmart on a Saturday morning filled with rumple-haired girls in sweatpants and crocs are proof enough.


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## Cappuccino (Aug 14, 2012)

PlsTryAgain said:


> Walmart on a Saturday morning filled with rumple-haired girls in sweatpants and crocs are proof enough.


So unfortunately true


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether you think a woman is wearing something for sexual attention or not. Think that all you want. That's fine. Stare at their ass, think they're hot, whatever. But if you think that's an excuse to touch them, to call out, "WELL HEY THUR SEXY MAMA WHATS UR NAME" "DAM GURL LOOK AT DAT ASS" "OOOOO GIRL U SEXY R U TITE" or anything similar...you're an asshole.


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

Amenamy said:


> What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether you think a woman is wearing something for sexual attention or not. Think that all you want. That's fine. Stare at their ass, think they're hot, whatever. But if you think that's an excuse to touch them, to call out, "WELL HEY THUR SEXY MAMA WHATS UR NAME" "DAM GURL LOOK AT DAT ASS" "OOOOO GIRL U SEXY R U TITE" or anything similar...you're an asshole.


Yes, an asshole indeed. My point entirely, that's it. 

Looking and noticing is one thing, but touching and commenting things like, "That ass is fiiiine!" is just inappropriate and rude behavior, even if she responds positively. It's not excuse to go around acting that to every woman they see that they feel aroused by.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Amenamy said:


> What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether you think a woman is wearing something for sexual attention or not. Think that all you want. That's fine. Stare at their ass, think they're hot, whatever. But if you think that's an excuse to touch them, to call out, "WELL HEY THUR SEXY MAMA WHATS UR NAME" "DAM GURL LOOK AT DAT ASS" "OOOOO GIRL U SEXY R U TITE" or anything similar...you're an asshole.


Where did anyone here say it's ok to touch them? I don't think anyone here said it was alright to randomly walk up to a woman and just start touching her. The only thing I stated was a comment. Touching is inappropriate.


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## Shazzette (May 26, 2012)

PlsTryAgain said:


> I'm gonna do a horrible thing here, and say that as a woman, I gotta be honest. There is NO WAY IN HELL I'm wearing these super tight jeans for MY benefit. Why? Because they're so friggen tight it hurts to sit the F* down (which I can't do, because despite being uber skinny and toned, they're SO FRICKEN TIGHT they still cause little puckering of "chunkiness" around my hips). They're so low cut that I MUST wear a thong because you're GONNA see my underwear, and there's NO CHANCE IN HELL I'm letting you see me in my comfortable cotton underwear that I sneak around the house in when no one's around because they're not riding up my girl-bits! The way that AWESOME sexy thong you just HAVE to wear (which you only wear when you're gonna be around a guy who's gonna see it), that thong that chafes because your jeans are so tight but all of your vagina is exposed in this stupid thong, so it's just rubbing the hell outta ya anyway.
> 
> Jeans that are paired with an unreasonably tight bra with a 10 gauge metal bar under each breast, hiking those bad boys up to your eyebrows and then SQUEEEEZING them together so we've got some hot cleavage going on.
> 
> ...


First and foremost you need to work on your self esteem issues if you think that's the only way you can find and maintain a relationship with a man.

The next thing you need to do is start searching for a smarter boyfriend.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Shazzette said:


> First and foremost you need to work on your self esteem issues if you think that's the only way you can find and maintain a relationship with a man.
> 
> The next thing you need to do is start searching for a smarter boyfriend.


So what's wrong with her dressing up an dressing this way when she fully knows what she is doing? She is absolutely correct in everything she says. What guy doesn't want that super hot girlfriend just like what chick doesn't want that super hot boyfriend? She just acknowledges if she dresses that way, she expect a certain type of attention. That's what we have been saying the whole time. That doesn't mean her boyfriend is shallow and only cares about looks and that's the only way they can maintain a relationship. She sounds pretty down to earth and probably is a lot easier going than the typical chip on your shoulder feminist. I'm sure she probably has a pretty good relationship overall going on.


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## Shazzette (May 26, 2012)

PowerShell said:


> So what's wrong with her dressing up an dressing this way when she fully knows what she is doing? She is absolutely correct in everything she says. What guy doesn't want that super hot girlfriend just like what chick doesn't want that super hot boyfriend? She just acknowledges if she dresses that way, she expect a certain type of attention. That's what we have been saying the whole time. That doesn't mean her boyfriend is shallow and only cares about looks and that's the only way they can maintain a relationship. She sounds pretty down to earth and probably is a lot easier going than the typical chip on your shoulder feminist. I'm sure she probably has a pretty good relationship overall going on.


I'd say she has massive self-esteem issues and a terrible relationship. However, I'd probably have trouble convincing any man who thinks that feminist is a bad or dirty word of that.


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## chaoticbrain (May 5, 2012)

It scares me people think it should be illegal to make comments in our society.

"oh your ass looks nice in those pants"

"Um I'm sorry sir but those comments are sexual harassment and I'm going to have to take you to jail".


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

I guess it's too much to ask for women to be able to complete their day without hearing how her ass looks in the pants she's wearing, because that would just be terrible for him to have to suppress such an urge.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Just a general note - I don't agree with the claim that @_PlsTryAgain_ has to have self esteem issues. If she did, she would likely never have written what she did - people with self esteem issues tend to lie to themselves and their surroundings about their motifs. She could very well be a feminist as well, there is nothing in her post that tells me that she couldn't possibly be one (note, I'm not claiming that she IS one). 

I thought that her post has a unique character, is very entertaining and she has some great points! That doesn't mean that my philosophy necessarily aligns with hers.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

PowerShell said:


> Where did anyone here say it's ok to touch them? I don't think anyone here said it was alright to randomly walk up to a woman and just start touching her. The only thing I stated was a comment. Touching is inappropriate.


Which is why I added that it's not okay to make inappropriate comments either.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> First and foremost you need to work on your self esteem issues if you think that's the only way you can find and maintain a relationship with a man.
> 
> The next thing you need to do is start searching for a smarter boyfriend.


She didnt say those things were the only aspect of the relationship.


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## chaoticbrain (May 5, 2012)

.


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## Shazzette (May 26, 2012)

Swede said:


> Just a general note - I don't agree with the claim that @_PlsTryAgain_ has to have self esteem issues. If she did, she would likely never have written what she did - people with self esteem issues tend to lie to themselves and their surroundings about their motifs. She could very well be a feminist as well, there is nothing in her post that tells me that she couldn't possibly be one (note, I'm not claiming that she IS one).
> 
> I thought that her post has a unique character, is very entertaining and she has some great points! That doesn't mean that my philosophy necessarily aligns with hers.


She is happy to wear clothing that she personally finds uncomfortable and dislikes wearing in order to please a partner who, obviously, does not consider her to be either sexy or beautiful when she is wearing comfortable clothing.

From where I am, that absolutely looks like low self-esteem.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Shazzette said:


> I'd say she has massive self-esteem issues and a terrible relationship. However, I'd probably have trouble convincing any man who thinks that feminist is a bad or dirty word of that.


 Not really. I also think it is pretty sad and "feminist" isn't exactly my favourite word.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

nvm


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Not really. I also think it is pretty sad and "feminist" isn't exactly my favourite word.


Because the radicals take a word with a positive connotation and then destroy it. I'm all for equality among all people. I'm not for special rights. The people who want special rights typically cling to words like feminist and hold radical agendas that are just as biased as what they claim to fight.

In another example think of the word patriot. It used to have a strong positive meaning to it. Now it has gained a more negative connotation due the the TEA party idiots and people like Alex Jones claiming they are supposed patriots and labeling their radical agendas with it.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

PowerShell said:


> Because the radicals take a word with a positive connotation and then destroy it. I'm all for equality among all people. I'm not for special rights. The people who want special rights typically cling to words like feminist and hold radical agendas that are just as biased as what they claim to fight.
> 
> In another example think of the word patriot. It used to have a strong positive meaning to it. Now it has gained a more negative connotation due the the TEA party idiots and people like Alex Jones claiming they are supposed patriots and labeling their radical agendas with it.


 I read an article on some tumblr the other day (sometimes when I feel like trolling myself I read SJW tumblrs) and it was about why feminists shouldn't agree with "equalitarians." Thats what I call myself, actually and it basically summarised my whole problem with these spinoff feel good identity politics movements (it's mostly an issue with third wave feminism. in places where first and second wave style feminism is still required I support that a lot.)

I think it's sad because if you wear clothes so tight it actually hurts to sit down just so people look at you then that is a sad reflection on how far you need to go to be noticed. If I was in a relationship with someone and they were like "oh these tights hurt to sit down in" I would be like WTF, stop wearing them. Maybe I am just weird.

Maybe I just want to live in a normal society rather than one where people dress like extras in an almost-banned rap music video so they can get more sex from other people who also look like extras in a different but extremely similar video.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Swede said:


> Just a general note - I don't agree with the claim that PlsTryAgain has to have self esteem issues. If she did, she would likely never have written what she did - people with self esteem issues tend to lie to themselves and their surroundings about their motifs.


 Some people willingly disparage and discredit themselves for material purposes. They can still have poor self-esteem; maybe they just don't know it.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I think it's sad because if you wear clothes so tight it actually hurts to sit down just so people look at you then that is a sad reflection on how far you need to go to be noticed. If I was in a relationship with someone and they were like "oh these tights hurt to sit down in" I would be like WTF, stop wearing them. Maybe I am just weird.


And that's goes back to the whole advertising thing that was discussed earlier. The thing is the women complaining want attention on their terms and think they're little princesses and that dressing themselves will get them their prince charming. Then when a guy who is a 6 out of 10 (average) hits on them, they get all pissed and offended.


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## bengalcat (Dec 8, 2010)

626Stitch said:


> Sorry about the hopelessly inarticulate OP. Ok so I know what I suggested is inappropriate but I would like to do it anyway.
> 
> I guess I feel manipulated by her flaunting her sex appeal and I feel resentfull about this. Making her uncomfertable would be my way of saying fuck you. Theres no point trying to hit on her as my chances would be very low.
> 
> ...


Imam justifies rape of unveiled women

You and this guy would get along great.



> “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?” the sheik said in his sermon. “The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.”


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## bengalcat (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't think you're a bad person but I'm really annoyed at you right now because you know that the problem of the way you're feeling is not simply about this "what women wear" as some big abstract societal issue. 

You're bitter and resentful because you're not getting laid and you're not getting what you want. And you know why that is. There is some element to personal choice in that, there is some element of you struggling with who you want to be in that, and there is some element of you figuring out how to navigate social waters in the first place. 

Go down this lame-ass road if you want to, that you've read all about lots of other bitter people going down. But don't pretend this is just some abstract issue you get to feel indignant about on principle. There is more going on here than you are acknowledging.

Addit: Okay so I've just seen that you have already acknowledged "the more" upthread. My fault for missing the middle half of the thread. I'm still annoyed at you though - there was a lot of manipulativeness and disingenuousness in the way you started this topic and the way you engaged me.

You know, I'm also disappointed in you right now because you do read so much on gender issues. You know there is so much more going on when it comes to women dressing and doing various things to make themselves "more attractive" - for you to reduce all the motivation, forces, conditioning, insecurities and issues to a simple "throwing their sex in guys like me's faces" is far simpler than how your mind actually works.


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## bengalcat (Dec 8, 2010)

@626Stitch

Btw I'd have another think about your statement in either this or another thread that you are not a misogynist. In that instance you were saying that your interest in women only for sex was not because you're a misogynist but because you're antisocial and highly sexual. 

A few things that you have said in this thread do point to misogyny though. 

You express great hostility towards women, who you lump together as a homogeneous cock-teasing group, to whom you attribute bad intentions, and in fact in a way where you take it personally. 

According to one online dictionary definition:
a person who hates, dislikes, mistrusts, or mistreats women. 

Although you prefer to use the term "frustrated" here, the amount of hostility and the way you were trying to justify it in your earlier posts reflects the first three. And you were heading in the direction of trying to use the presence of those as reason to do the fourth - mistreat people. I guess fortunately you were using the forum as a way to think this stuff through. 

But I'd think a little bit harder about pat denials of misogyny. I'm not saying that that is your identity or all that you are, but please have your eyes open whatever path you're going to go down.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

bengalcat said:


> I don't think you're a bad person but I'm really annoyed at you right now because you know that the problem of the way you're feeling is not simply about this "what women wear" as some big abstract societal issue.
> 
> You're bitter and resentful because you're not getting laid and you're not getting what you want. And you know why that is. There is some element to personal choice in that, there is some element of you struggling with who you want to be in that, and there is some element of you figuring out how to navigate social waters in the first place.
> 
> ...


The literal content of this thread has been basically cast aside in favor of relating this to gender politics, as per usual. Had that not been factored in, l doubt pretty seriously anyone would have suggested his (potential) actions were defensible :crazy:

lt's amusing that people assume you stand on either side of a much larger issue if you disagree with what the OP has originally stated. One of many reasons l don't subscribe to ideology.


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## PlsTryAgain (Dec 14, 2012)

Shazzette said:


> I'd say she has massive self-esteem issues and a terrible relationship. However, I'd probably have trouble convincing any man who thinks that feminist is a bad or dirty word of that.





PowerShell said:


> So what's wrong with her dressing up an dressing this way when she fully knows what she is doing? She is absolutely correct in everything she says. What guy doesn't want that super hot girlfriend just like what chick doesn't want that super hot boyfriend? She just acknowledges if she dresses that way, she expect a certain type of attention. That's what we have been saying the whole time. That doesn't mean her boyfriend is shallow and only cares about looks and that's the only way they can maintain a relationship. She sounds pretty down to earth and probably is a lot easier going than the typical chip on your shoulder feminist. I'm sure she probably has a pretty good relationship overall going on.


@ Powershell, Thankyou, lol. roud: @Shazzette, seriously, since when did being honest with yourself mean you have bad self-esteem and a terrible relationship?? lol. 

Feminist to me, isn't about being "superior" to men. It's not about doing away with who we are as woman, and trying to be something we're not. I'm a woman. I am D*MN proud of that fact, and I have respect for myself, and respect for the man in my life. And respect for all men who accept who they are. And my man, men, respect me. But we don't lie about who we are, in some silly attempt to compensate for a world where men and woman aren't equal.

Guess what? Life is not EQUAL. Woman and men ARE NOT EQUAL. THEY SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL. They should be treated FAIRLY. There's a huge f*ing difference. It's only fair for me to have the opportunity to apply for the same jobs the men are...BUT, it's not FAIR for a man to lose out on that job because he's a YWM: young white male, and we're trying to meet some ridiculous "Quota" where we hire woman not because they're skilled but because there's not enough vagina's in the building.

THAT is where I get pissed off. 

Feminism should be about embracing who we are as woman. We're not BAD because we're different from men. We shouldn't be ASHAMED because we're attractive to the male species and our bodies arouse them! 

If my man didn't find me sexually attractive, I'd be in a freakin' FRIENDSHIP. I don't have sex with my friends. THAT is the difference. The "I want to rip your clothes off and enjoy the parts of you that I just don't have cause I'm a woman and lookie at that" is what transcends friendship! 

See the thing is, I'm in a relationship that's not full of a lot of BS. And I'm in that relationship, because I met a guy who's not full of BS. 

If you wear makeup, guess what? You have self-esteem issues. If you do your hair in the morning, you're vain. If you buy designer clothes, if you follow trends, if you paint your f*ing toe nails, you have low self-esteem. WE DO THESE THINGS TO FEEL BEAUTIFUL. Guess what? Just like without seasons and daylight we'd never know time has passed, without the opposite sex we wouldn't know what beautiful is. It's a grading system. Rank yourself against the other woman, fix your flaws with pretty polish and fake eye lashes, and voila, gain a couple ranks.

I don't pretend otherwise. And I don't expect my man to pretend otherwise. Why the hell do we dress up to go to work or a bar, but when we're home alone watching tv on the couch all day, we're makeupless and in yoga pants?! If we did it because it made us feel "Good about ourselves" we'd do it ALL THE TIME! Hell, waking up at 6 am on a Saturday morning that I'm going to be lying in bed all day, and spending an hour brushing concealer and eyeliner over my face, running the straightener over my hair, pulling those few stray eyebrows...up, sounds like a f*ing fun morning to me. 

But we don't. We do it because OTHER PEOPLE SEEING US LIKE THAT makes us feel good about ourselves!

Self-esteem is about feeling good about who you are in reference to the rest of the world. I don't lie to myself about that. What defines my solid self esteem, is that I don't think I'm an f*ing model. I don't. I don't expect to score the hottest guy in the room, I know what my flaws are, I know what I need to improve. I know what makes me sexy, I know that I'm a funny, smart, wonderful woman who deserves respect and fair treatment. I don't think I'm a loser, but I don't think I'm without flaws. I accept ME as I AM. The sh*tty things and the wonderful things, and THAT is what makes my relationship wonderful. My man doesn't tell me I'm "PERFECT". I'm NOT. That's lying. And I don't tell him he's PERFECT. He's not. We're just both flawed where the other is skilled, and it balances out. 

He is attractive to me. I find him sexy, whether he's all done up, or he's scrubbing it. But I do love going out and showing off how sexy he is TO ME, just like I enjoy him showing off how sexy I am to him. 

I don't want my man to ever have to "censor" his thoughts and feelings. He didn't from the day he met me, but he's respectful and knows that maybe saying "Those jeans really accentuate your physical features" is a better approach then "Your a$$ looks hot". But at the end of the day, I know that he's expressing the same feelings, and THAT'S OKAY! HE'S A MAN! I WANT HIM FINDING ME SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE *TOO*. 

Guess what? He's gonna tell me the next day that I'm the smartest girl he knows when I replumb our bathroom, or that I'm the sweetest when I write him a beautiful poem. All three things turn him on, so why would I want him pretending otherwise?

Sexual touching from strangers? No. I don't grind against men at bars, but if I did, I can't fault them for wanting to touch me. Guess what? I went there first. Rubbing my a$$ against him is looking for that sort of attention! I'm not saying they're searching for rape, but they're looking for SEXUAL ATTENTION. This notion that we can flaunt our sexuality and then DEMAND that men ignore their basic wiring and not find it arousing? Ridiculous. What we WANT, is that they are able to control their *behavior* and know that expressing appreciation and TAKING action are very different things. 

Tomorrow, I'm getting all dressed up, pulling on my bodycon dress, layering up my hair, donning my sexiest lipgloss and being my man's sexy woman. And he's gonna do his hair, spray on the cologne that makes me melt, and spend an hour shaving his facial hair just right. Heck, I'll shave my legs and he'll tidy up his sensitive spots, and this is all about sexual desire, and THAT is a component of love. Just like waking up the next morning, smiles on our faces, with my mascara mushed on my cheek, his underpants strewn around his messy apartment and our breaths smelling like skunk, and whispering "I love you". Your partner deserves your best, because they love you at your worst.

But I'm clearly a horrible feminist. <shrug> Lemme go burn my bra and stop shaving my underarms, and we can let our rolly-flabby bodies sit in our zen-apartments and discuss how men are dicks because they don't want to smoosh their faces in our hairy bits and saggy boobs. 

D*mn me and my sexist ways.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

PlsTryAgain said:


> I don't pretend otherwise. And I don't expect my man to pretend otherwise. Why the hell do we dress up to go to work or a bar, but when we're home alone watching tv on the couch all day, we're makeupless and in yoga pants?! If we did it because it made us feel "Good about ourselves" we'd do it ALL THE TIME! Hell, waking up at 6 am on a Saturday morning that I'm going to be lying in bed all day, and spending an hour brushing concealer and eyeliner over my face, running the straightener over my hair, pulling those few stray eyebrows...up, sounds like a f*ing fun morning to me.
> 
> But we don't. We do it because OTHER PEOPLE SEEING US LIKE THAT makes us feel good about ourselves!


Damn where can I find a woman with your level of self honesty and realism?!

Most woman IME deny that they are putting on make up for positive social regard, yet they wouldn't wear make up if they weren't expecting to interact with anyone. Practically everyone tries to make themselves physically appealing so that people give them positive regard, it's part of being a social being... We care about others responses to us.

But even women in this thread deny that.



> Sexual touching from strangers? No. I don't grind against men at bars, but if I did, I can't fault them for wanting to touch me. Guess what? I went there first. Rubbing my a$$ against him is looking for that sort of attention! I'm not saying they're searching for rape, but they're looking for SEXUAL ATTENTION. This notion that we can flaunt our sexuality and then DEMAND that men ignore their basic wiring and not find it arousing? Ridiculous.


Oh I love you.



> Tomorrow, I'm getting all dressed up, pulling on my bodycon dress, layering up my hair, donning my sexiest lipgloss and being my man's sexy woman. And he's gonna do his hair, spray on the cologne that makes me melt, and spend an hour shaving his facial hair just right. Heck, I'll shave my legs and he'll tidy up his sensitive spots, and this is all about sexual desire, and THAT is a component of love. Just like waking up the next morning, smiles on our faces, with my mascara mushed on my cheek, his underpants strewn around his messy apartment and our breaths smelling like skunk, and whispering "I love you". Your partner deserves your best, because they love you at your worst.


Your partner is a lucky, lucky man.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

PowerShell said:


> Please explain to me why are women wearing this in the first place? Why are they showing cleavage or wearing clothes so tight and skimpy it doesn't leave much to the imagination?


Obviously because they are all whores who want attention from desperate bitter dudes like yourself so they can exert power over them, there's clearly no other explanation.


Diphenhydramine said:


> I read an article on some tumblr the other day (sometimes when I feel like trolling myself I read SJW tumblrs) and it was about why feminists shouldn't agree with "equalitarians." Thats what I call myself, actually and it basically summarised my whole problem with these spinoff feel good identity politics movements (it's mostly an issue with third wave feminism. in places where first and second wave style feminism is still required I support that a lot.)


Most SJ people on Tumblr are morons but they probably have a point in that a lot of people express outright reactionary and patriarchal sentiments and then hide behind a label of being "egalitarian." I think there are also some people who label themselves that way who are not really that bad and just have a really distorted view of what "feminism" actually means, but there's lots of outright MRA types that will say "oh I'm not anti-feminist, I'm just egalitarian!"


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Shahada said:


> but there's lots of outright MRA types that will say "oh I'm not anti-feminist, I'm just egalitarian!"


 I didn't even know what MRA stood for until a few days ago. Just another bad thing the internet has produced.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I didn't even know what MRA stood for until a few days ago. Just another bad thing the internet has produced.


Hm... What would you say you're egalitarian in relation to, then? I've only heard that term used to mean, "I'm for both men and women's issues."


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Torai said:


> Hm... What would you say you're egalitarian in relation to, then? I've only heard that term used to mean, "I'm for both men and women's issues."


That's what it ostensibly means but people can say they mean one thing when their words imply the opposite. For example when people who claim to be "egalitarian" spend all their time complaining about how women have it too good because of feminism and men are oppressed in comparison.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Shahada said:


> That's what it ostensibly means but people can say they mean one thing when their words imply the opposite. For example when people who claim to be "egalitarian" spend all their time complaining about how women have it too good because of feminism and men are oppressed in comparison.


Whenever I think about egalitarianism's fair and balanced mantra, this is about how much stock I put into it:










Not to say every issue they posit is wrong, but people say they're moderate or centrist, when we honestly can't say what's moderate or centrist. We're not blank slates and we really never have been.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Torai said:


> Hm... What would you say you're egalitarian in relation to, then? I've only heard that term used to mean, "I'm for both men and women's issues."


"It is defined either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights[6] or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people or the decentralisation of power."

That's a pretty good summary.


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## rbs326 (Jul 19, 2013)

So far all you've done is make excuses for why you want to say it and receive acceptance from people you don't even know telling you it's ok.
It's obvious you really want to do it, so do it. But, you'll be an asshole.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

rbs326 said:


> So far all you've done is make excuses for why you want to say it and receive acceptance from people you don't even know telling you it's ok.
> It's obvious you really want to do it, so do it. But, you'll be an asshole.


If you had read the thread before posting this, you would know that a) he's been getting plenty of criticism, and b) he's actually thanked the people who have criticized him because they've given him something to think about. Furthermore, he seems open to advice on how to change the issues that caused this. I realize it's a fairly long thread by now, and that may deter some people from reading it all the way through; still, your accusation is unfair and completely invalidated by the previous material here.


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## rbs326 (Jul 19, 2013)

I had already read through the thread before posting this. Despite the fact he's already received criticism or not, that was the general idea I got reading through the thread. Many of the posts written by the original poster came off as excuses to me, and the beginning reason and title of the thread (which seems, to me, to be him looking for acceptance for something which he's admitted is inappropriate) are what matters to me rather than what it's spun off into. As for whether or not my accusation is unfair, you're right, it may be, I probably shouldn't have posted it at all. I already did though, so anything related to whether or not I should have is irrelevant unless it is to keep me from posting something similar in the future. 
The main point of my post, through my eyes, was to say that if he wants to do something, he should just do it, but he shouldn't seek validation through the internet and go over his actions over and over again trying to turn it in a positive light. Just do it if you really think it's going to be worth it and deal with the consequences by yourself as it was only your decision.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> "It is defined either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights[6] or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people or the decentralisation of power."
> 
> That's a pretty good summary.


That makes sense.

Usually when people say "egalitarian", they mean they're somewhere in the feminist/MRA spectrum. They like to think "smack-dab in the middle", but it's more complicated than that. Egalitarians are generally closer to the MRA side of things because "egalitarian" is often a term that implies feminism is not egalitarian.

To be clear, the MRA issues that I've seen presented (None of which I'm necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with. I'm not going to get into some harebrained argument about this.) are:


False rape accusations
Male services for rape and domestic violence
The abolition of circumcision
Male disposability
Ending the stereotyping of all men as hypersexual and dangerous
The valuation of the father as a parent
Bias against men in the enforcement of prison sentences
Child custody
Legal paternal surrender (Term for a man's ability to withdraw child support. Some want it with limits, such as before 2-3 months so she can have an abortion.)
Male suicide rate
Male representation in mental health services
Boy's lagging behind in schools
Abolition of Selective Service

Some things that are associated with MRA's, but not technically part of the entire movement, however many of them follow these stereotypes:


Friend zone
Pick-up artistry
Hypergamy (Women trading up on men.)
Fedoras (Which is only a hat... I don't see the big deal.)
The old tired trope of "If you dress a certain way, you're gonna get raped."
Trivialization of sexual objectification of women.
Traditionalism
MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) ["Abstaining from sexual relationships with women, because why risk it since almost all women are shitty people?"]


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## MrsAndrewJacoby (Apr 11, 2013)

626Stitch said:


> Ok so Im sitting at my computer in the university hub. Theres a girl over at the vending machine in ridiculously tight pants (so its a normal day at university than). She might as well be naked from the waste down.
> 
> Im seriously considering walking over and just casually saying "By the way your ass looks fantastic in those pants, have a nice day". Im not sure if this is socially acceptable behaviour. She might think I am some kind of pig or something. But am I just supposed to pretend I didnt notice? I don't understand.
> 
> ...



I only made it to page two of this discussion before I checked out. Mainly for two reasons: 1) I already know how this debate will progress and 2) I don't have enough time to read through all the minutia. That being said, I'll respond to the OP now.

626Stich, you could have gone up to the girl and said that. She may have not cared or she may have felt it was a compliment. She may have been offended. Or she may have even been flattered AND offended at the same time. Whether or not venting your frustration is worth the chance you'd alienate some stranger is really up to you. Just remember that first impressions last a long time.

Now, addressing the underlying issue...

Some women *DO* dress provocatively to get attention from men. Some, however, dress that way because they buy into society's standards of what is considered "sexy". In other words, they do what they feel is expected of them. Some do because their friends do. Some do because it gives them an ego boost (they feel more attractive in their own minds regardless of other's feedback). Some just simply liked the outfit they saw on the rack and wanted to wear it. 

Will you notice any woman who is dressed that way? Yeah, most guys notice the girl wearing the micro-mini (or in this case, the painted on jeans). Is that inherently wrong? No. Should you assume that all women who dress that way are the male-attention seekers? No. _Can_ you know which women are dressing provocatively for your attention? Not usually unless they are overt about it. Should you let any woman's "flaunting" intimidate/anger/frustrate you? No. If a guy was walking around with a shirt that said "F*** you and yo mama!" would you take it personally or allow that to ruin your day? Probably not. So, if a girl is wearing something that makes it seem like she's flaunting her sexuality, don't overreact. In fact, one way guys can take the so-called "power" away from the true male-attention seekers is just ignore them. When they don't get a rise out of every guy who walks by, they'll stop.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Torai said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> Usually when people say "egalitarian"


 Hmm, yea, in this context maybe. I'm not exactly used to this context tho! 



Torai said:


> To be clear, the MRA issues that I've seen presented are (None of which I'm necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with. I'm not going to get into some harebrained argument about this.) are:
> 
> 
> False rape accusations
> ...


 Yea I've seen these before. I sort of had an idea there was a movement around this (I used to call them fedoras, lol) but I only heard of the MRA acronym itself a few days ago. I didn't know they had arrived at that stage.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Yea I've seen these before. I sort of had an idea there was a movement around this (I used to call them fedoras, lol) but I only heard of the MRA acronym itself a few days ago. I didn't know they had arrived at that stage.


I can see some of the issues are ones that are really sensible and that a lot of feminists would agree with. I'm thinking the problem is getting the people power to shift policies around, which is not really helped by the movement's overall attitude towards feminism.

But fedoras can be cool. 










You can tell I'm a Kamen Rider fan. (I've only watched 5 series, though. So many episodes!)


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Torai said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> Usually when people say "egalitarian", they mean they're somewhere in the feminist/MRA spectrum. They like to think "smack-dab in the middle", but it's more complicated than that. Egalitarians are generally closer to the MRA side of things because "egalitarian" is often a term that implies feminism is not egalitarian.
> 
> ...


l always like and agree with many posts l've seen from you, probably just in this sub. l don't think l see you elsewhere but l could be blind 


You've responded based on what was actually said and not what you wish was said so you could cater to your own agenda.

l could tailor my own posts in such a way that l would know exactly who l'd receive thanks from, even if they made _no_ _sense whatsoever_ but supported certain notions, when things become so clearly and predictably divided along ideological lines. 

l would experience no satisfaction from doing so :tongue:


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## VioletIris (Jan 15, 2010)

Back to the OP -- If I thought you genuinely wanted to compliment the woman's appearance, I would say, go ahead but don't use the word "ass", too crude, say something like, "I hope you don't mind me saying that you look really good in those pants." I would be a little embarassed (that's normal for me, I am shy) but very complimented and just reply "Thank you.".
However, if your motive is to make HER uncomfortable because you are a bit upset by her wearing such revealing pants -- you don't know if she wore them with intent to be sexually provocative - she may have worn them because they were the last clean pair of pants she had that morning! Or, did you notice if they were yoga pants or some kind of workout tights? In which case it's just a normal thing to do if she goes from class to a workout. It's better to not say anything if you are just trying to make her uncomfortable.

I did not read too far beyond the first post, but I have discussed this with my teenage kids. My daughter says, she has the right to wear anything she wants, even if it is tight and low cut. I answer, yes, but men have the right to say out loud to you exactly what they think when they see you, even if it might be bad manners, it's not "harassment", it's constitutionally protected free speech. I also told her that as an "old bat," when I am dressed nicely for work or to go out, I appreciate a compliment once in awhile from a man if it is done politely. 
This is where the "pendulum" is swinging wildly again -- from patriarchy in my childhood to some kind of PC anti-masculine jail or something. Sorry if I offend anyone by this post.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

OMG WTF BRO said:


> l always like and agree with many posts l've seen from you, probably just in this sub. l don't think l see you elsewhere but l could be blind


Yeah, I often frequent this forum because it's more conflict-free and not dead boring. It's definitely my most frequented forum. Plus, I like to talk about this stuff, because while I definitely have failing points, I sometimes know where these failing points are and can offer advice based on my experiences and those of others. 

I've posted in the Debate Forum before, but I've kind of tapered off from that forum. I've seen a pattern where I would try to debate with someone, and I'd just get completely exhausted, either because I take snarkiness and insults personally, or because I find I have more important things to do. There would be no sign of ending, so I either passive-aggressively stop responding or raise a white flag.



> You've responded based on what was actually said and not what you wish was said so you could cater to your own agenda.


I've done the latter, too. Trust me, I have. It's very tempting.



> l could tailor my own posts in such a way that l would know exactly who l'd receive thanks from, even if they made _no_ sense whatsoever but supported certain notions, when things become so clearly and predictably divided along ideological lines.


Being a 9, I can't identify strongly with any sort of ideology. At all. If I followed something, I wouldn't really be able to do it full-heartedly. I can't see people clinging to identity. I've tried, but it's never really been part of me.

This might be due to being a P dominant, but my ideals are a jumbled mess. My father's a center-right libertarian, my brother's a sex-positive libertarian, my sister's a liberal LGBTQ-friendly feminist. My girlfriend's an extremely third-wave sex-positive outspoken feminist who doesn't take shit from anyone, even me (I respect her for that). My mother and I, however, just have this strange smorgasbord.



> l would experience no satisfaction from doing so :tongue:


I like to bathe my naked body in thanks. It pleases me greatly.


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## MissyMaroon (Feb 24, 2010)

How would you feel if that girl walked up to you just to shame you for your appearance (when you think what you're wearing or how you're looking is perfectly ok) just because she wasn't entirely comfortable with it? The only thing we have total control over is ourselves. Choose not to be an asshole. You're not a bad person for feeling certain things, but you'd be bad not to investigate those reactions and try to understand why you have them. You are giving some total stranger more control over yourself than even you have. I think you have some confidence issues to work out. Do men you consider to be physically attractive/more likely to attract women also make you feel uncomfortable/threatened/bitter?


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

One time a guy at a concert tapped me on the shoulder and said to me, "Those pants fit you well." I knew what he was trying to say, and I knew he put in effort to make it non offensive. I wasn't offended, and no I was not dressed to gain attention. Anyway I smiled and said thank you and that was the end of our encounter. He didn't bug me or harass me or talk to me for the rest of the night. It was no harm done. I mean, it's risky because you never know how a stranger is going to react to something like that, even if in your head it sounds fine, but I'd say there are ways to use better judgment on how you approach and how you phrase your compliment.


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## Shazzette (May 26, 2012)

PlsTryAgain said:


> @ Powershell, Thankyou, lol. roud: @Shazzette, seriously, since when did being honest with yourself mean you have bad self-esteem and a terrible relationship?? lol.
> 
> Feminist to me, isn't about being "superior" to men. It's not about doing away with who we are as woman, and trying to be something we're not. I'm a woman. I am D*MN proud of that fact, and I have respect for myself, and respect for the man in my life. And respect for all men who accept who they are. And my man, men, respect me. But we don't lie about who we are, in some silly attempt to compensate for a world where men and woman aren't equal.
> 
> ...


By all means keep advertising your own special brand of stupidity. I'm enjoying it.


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## badwolf (Jun 17, 2012)

626Stitch said:


> Ok so Im sitting at my computer in the university hub. Theres a girl over at the vending machine in ridiculously tight pants (so its a normal day at university than). She might as well be naked from the waste down.
> 
> Im seriously considering walking over and just casually saying "By the way your ass looks fantastic in those pants, have a nice day". Im not sure if this is socially acceptable behaviour. She might think I am some kind of pig or something. But am I just supposed to pretend I didnt notice? I don't understand.
> 
> ...


If you said it with sincerity and then walked away, I think you would've been ok.


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## Cantarella (Sep 3, 2010)

Sorry OP, you just sound a bit socially retarded. If I were you I would never speak to another girl until I got that shit sorted.


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## la_revolucion (May 16, 2013)

Shazzette said:


> By all means keep advertising your own special brand of stupidity. I'm enjoying it.


I just read that wall of text, and my god, LMAO! Thanks for pointing out that nonsense. :laughing: Great laughs were had.


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## Dewymorning (Nov 24, 2012)

If you say something with the intention of making someone feel uncomfortable then you shouldn't be surprised if you get a negative reaction.


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## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

way to get girls to hate you lol you can't say stuff like that unless you've known the girl for a while


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## bengalcat (Dec 8, 2010)

@626Stitch

THIS IS A BLOKE'S ISSUE

A male acquaintance posted this on fb today. What I thought was the most interesting about it was how Ken Lay makes the link to a sense of entitlement. The comment section is also pretty decent.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

bengalcat said:


> A male acquaintance posted this on fb today. What I thought was the most interesting about it was how Ken Lay makes the link to a sense of entitlement. The comment section is also pretty decent.


I honestly don't get where this sense of entitlement comes from. I am a guy and I have never groped a woman or made any unwanted contacted with a woman. The only time I have made contact is when she started grinding on me on the dance floor. I really don't know any of my friends (and pretty much all my friends are male) who have initiated unwanted contact with a female. Maybe we were just taught respect in this specific geography and the rest of the world is just a bunch of scum bags.


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