# How can I stop envying lesbians?



## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

I just feel like irrelevant as a man compared to lesbians. I mentioned this in a couple of other places in the forum but I want to start a thread on this. I think the last time I felt this way was when I saw a bit of the music video to Girls Like Girls in a GSA. I'll let YT explain the music video for you, but basically, that music video makes me feel bad for being a straight guy, who's this rather ugly guy who treats his presumably bi or gay girlfriend worse than this other girl in the music video.

I admit I also felt a bit sad when Ellen Page came out as gay as I kind of had a crush on her. She also has this style I like and envy.

Lesbians are also more likely to look more androgynous or masculine than straight girls are, and are sometimes effectively just men without the right anatomy and with long hair and often more attractive.

The reason why I wish to look more androgynous was initially because I thought the look could attract lesbians, but I haven't talked about it since.

Usually, I envy feminine lesbians (sometimes a tiny bit masculine or androgynous as well) who are around my age.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

You seem very shallow. Like who gives a fuck? This is offensive. This is like that one white bitch who decided to be black just cuz. 

Being gay has been nothing but shitty for me my whole life, and then people like you make it seem like its just some kind of fucking trend or fashion statement. Ignorance .


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

xrx said:


> You seem very shallow. Like who gives a fuck? This is offensive. This is like that one white bitch who decided to be black just cuz.
> 
> Being gay has been nothing but shitty for me my whole life, and then people like you make it seem like its just some kind of fucking trend or fashion statement. Ignorance .


Sometimes I feel ashamed of being a straight guy because some of us feel like we can convert lesbians or something, although there are entire institutions in places like Africa and the US dedicated to doing this. 

I think my homophobic views came from my upbringing, and I never really cared about gay people, and I'm just drawing back on some old preconceptions which I haven't been able to get over. I did not, however, seem to appreciate being a guy and became obsessed with girls every now and again. 

I'm also not sure if I'm trans, because I would have had to feel my body would have been a great inconvenience for me, as so far, what has been the most inconvenient for me are spontaneous erections and body and facial hair, which I've dealt with.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

You have been mangled by the mind control of our modern world. You must leave your fears behind and face the real questions. Who are you and what do you want for yourself?


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> You have been mangled by the mind control of our modern world. You must leave your fears behind and face the real questions. Who are you and what do you want for yourself?


A nobody with unique views and to move somewhere


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

SJWDefener said:


> A nobody with unique views and to move somewhere


Do you believe that being unique counts for something in this world? Do you truly suspect that mere uniqueness can overcome the importance of powerful reasoning? A superficiality cannot achieve such importance. There are those of us who have been duped by this deceptive advertisement. They now exist in a lowly state of depression. That is not ideal.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

SJWDefener said:


> Sometimes I feel ashamed of being a straight guy because some of us feel like we can convert lesbians or something, although there are entire institutions in places like Africa and the US dedicated to doing this.
> 
> I think my homophobic views came from my upbringing, and I never really cared about gay people, and I'm just drawing back on some old preconceptions which I haven't been able to get over. I did not, however, seem to appreciate being a guy and became obsessed with girls every now and again.
> 
> I'm also not sure if I'm trans, because I would have had to feel my body would have been a great inconvenience for me, as so far, what has been the most inconvenient for me are spontaneous erections and body and facial hair, which I've dealt with.


Yoda is right. You seem to be a product of popular culture... You want to be unique and feel like a real person after a life of stressing about not being a lesbian? Go have some real experiences. Become a human being. Stop trying to be anything. You already are something you just Dont know what it is because you're too concerned with stupid bullshit that isn't real... And you have no real life experience.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

@Grandmaster Yoda @xrx I can see where you're coming from. What you've said is that I might just not have realised my identity yet. I'm just wondering about this because, using that point you made, it just makes it look like I don't like my current identity, or at least this is what I think. I'm just wondering how this links with me envying lesbians because I think of them as "better people".


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

SJWDefener said:


> @Grandmaster Yoda @xrx I can see where you're coming from. What you've said is that I might just not have realised my identity yet. I'm just wondering about this because, using that point you made, it just makes it look like I don't like my current identity, or at least this is what I think. I'm just wondering how this links with me envying lesbians because I think of them as "better people".


Do not think of them as better people. They are only different in one measly aspect. Truthfully, we are all together on this planet. You mustn't be attracted to signals of groups and identifying labels. Realize that everyone is an individual with different experiences. I was once interested in the social crassness of identify politics and I felt the guilt. But I noticed that it was not my reality that I was guilty about, it was all about the big abstraction. Do not succumb to the big abstraction as I once did. That is my advice to you.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Do not think of them as better people. They are only different in one measly aspect. Truthfully, we are all together on this planet. You mustn't be attracted to signals of groups and identifying labels. Realize that everyone is an individual with different experiences. I was once interested in the social crassness of identify politics and I felt the guilt. But I noticed that it was not my reality that I was guilty about, it was all about the big abstraction. Do not succumb to the big abstraction as I once did. That is my advice to you.


I'm just still frustrated with probably how a lot more things are considered socially unacceptable for straight guys in terms of expression compared with girls, and lesbians even; often, the LGBT community have the most "alternative" sense of fashion in some parts because of their background. I just feel like that lesbians tick the boxes of both masculinity and femininity without having to like men "in that way" and while in a feminine body, which I envy, because there isn't as much of a social expectation for guys to look attractive and to be nice. Unfortunately, my current circumstances make it a bit hard to express myself more freely because I still have to live with family for financial reasons.

Just to be clear, when you say abstraction, are you referring to how you people who get caught up in identity politics compare one group with another?


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

SJWDefener said:


> I'm just still frustrated with probably how a lot more things are considered socially unacceptable for straight guys in terms of expression compared with girls, and lesbians even; often, the LGBT community have the most "alternative" sense of fashion in some parts because of their background. I just feel like that lesbians tick the boxes of both masculinity and femininity without having to like men "in that way" and while in a feminine body, which I envy, because there isn't as much of a social expectation for guys to look attractive and to be nice. Unfortunately, my current circumstances make it a bit hard to express myself more freely because I still have to live with family for financial reasons.
> 
> Just to be clear, when you say abstraction, are you referring to how you people who get caught up in identity politics compare one group with another?


I am saying that people who talk about that stuff are often head in the clouds. It is true the talk of oppression and inequality and that steps should be taken to alleviate that. But you forget about your own life when you try to think too big. Who are you even talking about at that point?
You could be socially unacceptable, be rebellious. But do it for the rebellion. The challenge of being different is fighting against common acceptance. But you do not need to be accepted in a general way. You need to support and be kind to those around you. You cannot simply inch further and further away, who will accept you then? No one. That is a difficulty.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Go outside and grow up. I'm sick and tired of your generalizations.



> Lesbians are also more likely to look more androgynous or masculine than straight girls are


So lesbians are now defined by how they look? Looking more masculine makes me a lesbian? Go out. Leave your room, meet some real people and stop trying to be some idealized version of a doll you have on your head. You can only be you, deal with that shit.


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## Maye (Feb 15, 2015)

First of all, I don't think that lesbians make better men than men do. Men are really awesome for just who they are. Even the ones who are less quintessentially masculine. They're still male, and that is good in and of itself. 

But aside from all that, the bottom line is: If you want to stop envying lesbians, you have to be grateful for what you have and who you are. You have to be the best you can be and the most happy with what you have. Jealousy is real, I get it, but this is the bottom line. You just have to work on not valuing how cool you seem. And try to make the most of what you have. Its your positive attitude *towards* _whatever it is that you naturally have_. Its not about wishing you have something you don't.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Maye said:


> First of all, I don't think that lesbians make better men than men do. Men are really awesome for just who they are. Even the ones who are less quintessentially masculine. They're still male, and that is good in and of itself.


How so?


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## Maye (Feb 15, 2015)

SJWDefener said:


> How so?


Hmm.. That's a hard one, and if I'm completely honest I don't know of many lesbians except for a family member, and ellen degeneres :tongue:

Two answers for you:

1) I think your jealousy comes from seeing the surface of women. I get the feeling you think that they are cooler or better than you. Yes, they can appear androgynous or "masculine" and they can seem like men in some ways. But go deeper, and that woman has her own body and physicality, her own experience, her own hormones, she was created differently, never the exact same as a man. 

2) You mentioned that lesbians are more attractive than men. Maybe to you, but not to me. I'm always more attracted to men than women, pretty much no matter what. I think there's just some fundamental differences. My opinion 

You are made up of many different aspects, and together they are _*you*_. And don't let yourself believe that being male isn't just as valuable as being female. Its part of who you are. If you can't be as cool as some lesbians, that's okay. I'm definitely not a cool person. But the less I care about that and the more I am just myself without trying to fit a stereotype, the cooler _me_ I am.

*edit: You can be as _quintessentially_ masculine or feminine as you want, but I think everything I said would still apply for you. Its all about the fact that stereotypes aren't the real you.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Maye said:


> Hmm.. That's a hard one, and if I'm completely honest I don't know of many lesbians except for a family member, and ellen degeneres :tongue:


Ruby Rose and Ellen Page to name a couple more


> Two answers for you:
> 
> 1) I think your jealousy comes from seeing the surface of women. I get the feeling you think that they are cooler or better than you. Yes, they can appear androgynous or "masculine" and they can seem like men in some ways. But go deeper, and that woman has her own body and physicality, her own experience, her own hormones, she was created differently, never the exact same as a man.


She could be the most feminine lesbian in the world yet I'd still envy her because she doesn't need a man to satisfy her sexually and romantically.


> 2) You mentioned that lesbians are more attractive than men. Maybe to you, but not to me. I'm always more attracted to men than women, pretty much no matter what. I think there's just some fundamental differences. My opinion
> 
> You are made up of many different aspects, and together they are _*you*_. And don't let yourself believe that being male isn't just as valuable as being female. Its part of who you are. If you can't be as cool as some lesbians, that's okay. I'm definitely not a cool person. But the less I care about that and the more I am just myself without trying to fit a stereotype, the cooler _me_ I am.


I just don't want to be seen as a nerd, simply because I feel like I won't be able to interact with the sort of people I want, so I make an effort to be cool, but I have a different idea of it compared to some people.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

SJWDefener said:


> I just feel like irrelevant as a man compared to lesbians. I mentioned this in a couple of other places in the forum but I want to start a thread on this. I think the last time I felt this way was when I saw a bit of the music video to Girls Like Girls in a GSA. I'll let YT explain the music video for you, but basically, that music video makes me feel bad for being a straight guy, who's this rather ugly guy who treats his presumably bi or gay girlfriend worse than this other girl in the music video.
> 
> I admit I also felt a bit sad when Ellen Page came out as gay as I kind of had a crush on her. She also has this style I like and envy.
> 
> ...


You got it all mixed up:

By definition you could never attract lesbians no matter what you look like. You're a dude, lesbians don't want the D, and gay people cannot be converted no matter what.
Also by definition, straight women are not going to go after lesbians no matter what they look like. Lesbians are women. Straight people cannot be converted either. (Much to my chagrin because I'd convert in a heartbeat)
Then you're looking at bisexuals and pansexuals, and while some are into androgyny not all of them are.

So you're fine. 

PS: Would you feel OK with attracting someone by tricking them into believing you're something you're not?
PS2: Why are you getting your cues for how life works from music videos?


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Nell said:


> You got it all mixed up:
> 
> By definition you could never attract lesbians no matter what you look like. You're a dude, lesbians don't want the D, and gay people cannot be converted no matter what.
> Also by definition, straight women are not going to go after lesbians no matter what they look like. Lesbians are women. Straight people cannot be converted either. (Much to my chagrin because I'd convert in a heartbeat)
> ...


I guess I can thank my rather homophobic upbringing for this. Also, I don't really see what's so great about being a guy, to the point I have questioned my gender a few times. Unfortunately, I don't really know how it would feel to be a woman, so that kind of rules out getting a transition, and I'm not prepared to be subject to the pressures of being a woman.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

I can't tell you what's so great about being a guy because I'm not one, but I happen to really like them. Gender fluidity is also not the end of the world. 

You're clearly not comfortable in your own skin, but is it really gender that's doing it?


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Nell said:


> I can't tell you what's so great about being a guy because I'm not one, but I happen to really like them. Gender fluidity is also not the end of the world.
> 
> You're clearly not comfortable in your own skin, but is it really gender that's doing it?


Well, I guess raising my self-esteem wasn't one of my parents' strong points, because they're quite religious or something, so they don't really prioritise someone's individuality; I've also had to deal with not being talked to anyone my age, really, which is why I became an individualist. I wonder what it is about me that makes me worth avoiding?

Despite the number of people I've seen in relationships, I'm having trouble understanding what people find attractive about guys, since they get a lot of crap for even just existing these days. Unfortunately, I also feel like giving praise to guys is basically legitimising old gender roles as well.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Minx said:


> This clearly has nothing to (via) Lesbianism™ - it makes no sense; what so ever. I also fail to see how your point(s) _correspond _w/ Lesbianism™ or your sexuality.
> 
> 
> ----> *Trans Support Thread*
> ...


I guess it's about how I envy women for how they can express themselves; I could cross-dress, but I lack the parts for it, for the lack of a better word. I'm just wondering what made you link me to this forum.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

SJWDefener said:


> I still don't know why people won't talk to me, though.


Revise your attitude and the way you talk to others. You'll find that it helps not to be pushy about things, especially when you talk unnecessarily about this you like or shit on things others like. I know it's not easy, but if you're there just to say "I hate everything you love" people WILL avoid you. People don't like when others like "oh woe is me" all the time, it gets old and annoying after some time. It makes you sound like a drama queen who's always looking for the attention of others. People might avoid you for various reasons, but your lack of confidence or because of your emo style (since most people find it strange and unpleasant) or because you simply don't look like someone approachable. There are many things that might be affecting this and only you can change them. Sometimes is as easy as giving the first step.



> I also feel like that very few women are this upfront about their sexuality because it's seen socially unacceptable to do so


Is that bad? Women don't have to be upfront about their sexuality. Nobody has to. If someone is forcing you to be so, you're hanging out with the wrong people. If you're feeling too much pressure, you should stop looking at the media as the ultimate truth about the world.



> or the attractive women play coy to compensate for their attractiveness


How so?



> some attractive women aren't that nice in my opinion


Being nice isn't a matter of attractiveness but a matter of personality. One doesn't equal the other.



> but it does hurt knowing you're not desired or something, especially by someone you like.


Everyone is rejected at least once in their lives. It hurts, yes, but then you move on to better things. Mopping around will not do any good. If it wasn't meant to be, it wasn't.



> I still feel like we're in a society where men are considered more important.


It's due to how Historically men were the tool of war and for most of human History we were at war. Women were important, very important in fact. There is a saying that goes something like "behind a great man, there is always a great woman" and that seems to ring true.

Famous Women | HistoryNet
100 Important Women in History - World's Most Prominent Females Making Their Mark
Important Women Through History
https://www.biographyonline.net/people/women-who-changed-world.html
Women Who Left Their Stamps on History
Top 10 Greatest Women in History - Listverse

Here's one of my personal favourite female figures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_Gentileschi

The importance of women is great and often not overshadowed. All it takes is a quick Google search to find the many important women in History and how the affected society as a whole.

I think you're blind by an ideal and unable to see that the world is not made up of ideals. Real life hurts. It hurts for everybody. It's not just you suffering, everyone suffers. I feel you cry too much, life too little and worry too much about others than worrying about yourself. 

If you do not like yourself, nobody will.


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## Chicken Nugget (Jan 24, 2016)

Meteoric Shadows said:


> *I want to be taken away away on pretty pony!*


Serious, emotionally unavailable women are my weakness.



But on topic, I don't know if you're necessarily trans (possible), but it seems like you want to be more expressive/feminine than what traditional gender roles allow for men. Do you envy lesbians because they can adopt whatever style (masculine/feminine/whatever) and still be potentially attractive to other lesbians and be accepted within their own community?


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Sometimes I wish I could be as pretty and beautiful as women are, but then I realize it's just because I admire them so much, and would rather only do that instead.

I guess it's just like, being a man is like being a big ugly hairy troll sometimes, where as our primary role or function is to destroy and ruin things and deal with ugly dirty things.


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## Chicken Nugget (Jan 24, 2016)

Meteoric Shadows said:


> Sometimes I wish I could be as pretty and beautiful as women are, but then I realize it's just because I admire them so much, and would rather only do that instead.
> 
> I guess it's just like, being a man is like being a big ugly hairy troll sometimes, where as our primary role or function is to destroy and ruin things and deal with ugly dirty things.


Men may have been the primary destroyers of civilizations, but they were also the primary builders of them. Competitiveness, and all that.


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## Ubuntu (Jun 17, 2011)

Clarke and Lexa from the 100 made a cute couple.

I wish they never killed off Lexa and Lincoln. Or Wells from earlier.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Chicken Nugget said:


> Serious, emotionally unavailable women are my weakness.
> 
> 
> 
> But on topic, I don't know if you're necessarily trans (possible), but it seems like you want to be more expressive/feminine than what traditional gender roles allow for men. Do you envy lesbians because they can adopt whatever style (masculine/feminine/whatever) and still be potentially attractive to other lesbians and be accepted within their own community?


Yeah, but I'm not sure if I'm trans. I did find having male genitalia to be inconvenient in the past (especially with having erections quite early), and I didn't really think that much about how I would look like as a man; I also didn't really know about what transgender was in my childhood, and when I found out in my teens, I've been rather on and off about it quite since.

Until probably after going online, I didn't really see what was great about being a guy; even now, I feel like that guys can't really be attractive mainly because of the attitude some of them have, and because of the sort of fashion that's available to them, one of which is short hair, that has annoyingly become trendy again. I think this is because my ideal guy is pretty unconventional.


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Chicken Nugget said:


> Men may have been the primary destroyers of civilizations, but they were also the primary builders of them. Competitiveness, and all that.


I want to do all these sick and disgusting things to women, and it makes me feel like such a horrible person, cuz like you know, they don't deserve. They're all so sweet and innocent and I just feel like such a monster. 

WHY MUST I BE A MAN WHO ONLY DEFILES WHAT IS PURE AND INNOCENT!?!? I AM A BEAST

A WEAR-MAN-BEAST!!!!!!

WHO ONLY DESIRES THE TASTE OF SWEET SUCCULENT SOFT PORCELAIN FLESH!!


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## Maye (Feb 15, 2015)

Had another thought...

I don't see guys as oafs or monsters. Well, sometimes if they are being mean, but in their natural state I feel like they are pretty cool. I think they seem to be able to have a sort of easy going-ness or a different type of intelligence than women. 

Not every women is compatible with every man, but when they are, its because of how he is different from her but they are good for eachother. Also, women may be more attractive, and even straight women find other women attractive in a way, but (in terms of sexuality) mostly I think we like the idea of being attractive _to_ a man.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Maye said:


> Also, women may be more attractive, and even straight women find other women attractive in a way, but (in terms of sexuality) mostly I think we like the idea of being attractive _to_ a man.


This reminds me of how gay men might be better able to distinguish between something that's sexually arousing and merely aesthetically pleasing, because what they find sexy can be the ugliest person in the world (since you mentioned how women may be more attractive on average), but they can find a woman aesthetically pleasing without having the desire to do anything to her. I think straight guys might be capable of this as well, but would usually be likely to say that women are both pretty and sexy, and not either (but porn can tell a different story altogether). Just derailed slightly, that's all.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

SJWDefener said:


> This reminds me of how gay men might be better able to distinguish between something that's sexually arousing and merely aesthetically pleasing, because what they find sexy can be the ugliest person in the world (since you mentioned how women may be more attractive on average), but they can find a woman aesthetically pleasing without having the desire to do anything to her. I think straight guys might be capable of this as well, but would usually be likely to say that women are both pretty and sexy, and not either (but porn can tell a different story altogether). Just derailed slightly, that's all.


That's a generalization. All people are able to do that. Whatever they want to express is or not is another story altogether.


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## Maye (Feb 15, 2015)

SJWDefener said:


> This reminds me of how gay men might be better able to distinguish between something that's sexually arousing and merely aesthetically pleasing, because what they find sexy can be the ugliest person in the world (since you mentioned how women may be more attractive on average), but they can find a woman aesthetically pleasing without having the desire to do anything to her. I think straight guys might be capable of this as well, but would usually be likely to say that women are both pretty and sexy, and not either (but porn can tell a different story altogether). Just derailed slightly, that's all.


Yeah, that's what I meant. I was talking about the difference between finding someone "attractive" and actually being physically attracted to them. I actually think men can be aesthetically attractive as well, and I think women can be attracted to them. But _overall_, it seems that a decent _part_ of a woman's sexual desire might have to do with being viewed as attractive by her partner. And it doesn't seem like that would be as much the case for most men.


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## Chicken Nugget (Jan 24, 2016)

Meteoric Shadows said:


> I want to do all these sick and disgusting things to women, and it makes me feel like such a horrible person, cuz like you know, they don't deserve. They're all so sweet and innocent and I just feel like such a monster.
> 
> WHY MUST I BE A MAN WHO ONLY DEFILES WHAT IS PURE AND INNOCENT!?!? I AM A BEAST
> 
> ...


A lot of women are perverted as fuck too, even if they don't show it.


...Guilty as charged


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## Maye (Feb 15, 2015)

Chicken Nugget said:


> A lot of women are perverted as fuck too, even if they don't show it.
> 
> 
> ...Guilty as charged


I have to second that. Guilty.


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

None of this makes any sense hun.



SJWDefener said:


> I just feel like irrelevant as a man compared to lesbians. I mentioned this in a couple of other places in the forum but I want to start a thread on this. I think the last time I felt this way was when I saw a bit of the music video to Girls Like Girls in a GSA. I'll let YT explain the music video for you, but basically, that music video makes me feel bad for being a straight guy, who's this rather ugly guy who treats his presumably bi or gay girlfriend worse than this other girl in the music video.


How are you 'irrelevant' compared to lesbians? Most girls are heterosexual and most people are heterosexual, most things in life are geared towards heterosexuals, so you are more 'relevant' than lesbians...

How can you feel bad about being a staight man because of something that a fictional character does in a music video? Just because it's about a lesbian couple? Do you also feel bad for being a straight guy when you watch a film and the serial killer is a straight guy or what?




SJWDefener said:


> I admit I also felt a bit sad when Ellen Page came out as gay as I kind of had a crush on her. She also has this style I like and envy.


So? You can still have a crush on her, your chances with her haven't changed just because she came out, your chances would still be zero if she was a heterosexual... and you can still like and envy her style, it hasn't changed.





SJWDefener said:


> Lesbians are also more likely to look more androgynous or masculine than straight girls are, and are sometimes effectively just men without the right anatomy and with long hair and often more attractive.


...and? You wish you were a maculine woman or what?



SJWDefener said:


> The reason why I wish to look more androgynous was initially because I thought the look could attract lesbians, but I haven't talked about it since.


Lesbians aren't going to be more attracted to you if you look androgynous. Lesbians like vagina.


I don't really understand tbh, do you have any gender confusion or something? I haven't seen your other threads do I might be missing something.


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

Chicken Nugget said:


> A lot of women are perverted as fuck too, even if they don't show it.
> 
> 
> ...Guilty as charged


I admit I am a perv. :happy:


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

ziggy stardust x said:


> So? You can still have a crush on her, your chances with her haven't changed just because she came out, your chances would still be zero if she was a heterosexual... and you can still like and envy her style, it hasn't changed.


Sadly, her style's becoming really unpopular, and it may no longer exist by the middle of the next decade; I don't know if I could pull it off or something to show my devotion to it since I'm one of the few people that still likes it.


> ...and? You wish you were a maculine woman or what?


I just envy what girls can do to themselves, really, especially in terms of self-expression; being a guy can be boring sometimes. However, girls will be frowned upon if they present themselves as too masculine in some cases, I think, or even in the slightest.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

SJWDefener said:


> I just envy what girls can do to themselves, really, especially in terms of self-expression; being a guy can be boring sometimes. However, girls will be frowned upon if they present themselves as too masculine in some cases, I think, or even in the slightest.


 Then...just do it? Vagina aside, you can express yourself in the exact same ways.
This looks a lot like drowning in a glass of water to me.


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## Narcissa (Mar 2, 2016)

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> That's a generalization. All people are able to do that. Whatever they want to express is or not is another story altogether.



So bloody true


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

SJWDefener said:


> Sadly, her style's becoming really unpopular, and it may no longer exist by the middle of the next decade; I don't know if I could pull it off or something to show my devotion to it since I'm one of the few people that still likes it.
> 
> I just envy what girls can do to themselves, really, especially in terms of self-expression; being a guy can be boring sometimes. However, girls will be frowned upon if they present themselves as too masculine in some cases, I think, or even in the slightest.


On it, I guess.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> Suits are elegant in the same sense as Dadaism is art. Only a degenerate mind could conjure up something so grotesque.


But I like Dadaism because it is grotesque. It was an expression of the time against the laws and rules of formal Art. That's what the Vanguards of the early 20th century where all about, they weren't meant to be pretty. Then again Art is subjective and so is the concept of elegance.



> When suitism is finally defeated, there's nothing stopping us from using modern technology like printing and digital to create comfortable and beautiful clothes that don't include degenerate elements like ties, labels, etc.


And what would those clothes be like?



> I'm poor and I despise the idea of spending money on superfluous clothes instead of art, knowledge and other real things.


You can get pretty and cheap clothes, you just have to search. With that said, most of the more expensive clothes I own where either gifts or things I wanted to buy for myself. I'm not rich either, so the clothes are few and far between. Most of the things I own I t-shirts I buy on sale for 1 or 2 euros.



> I don't even have any printed t-shirts. Everything I have is simple and old. And mostly black.


Printed clothes are a form self-expression. Black is nice, but it's a tricky colour when you live in a mostly hot country.


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## Dolorous Haze (Jun 2, 2012)

Firstly, a fitted suit is sexy af.

Secondly, judging by your name I think you may be spending too much time on Tumblr which is giving you warped views of masculinity. Men aren't the devil like many SJW blogs claim.


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## Dolorous Haze (Jun 2, 2012)

Also, stop idealising lesbian relationships. I've been in two 'proper' relationships. First was with a girl second (current one) with a guy.

The latter is awesome, the former was hell.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Dolorous Haze said:


> Firstly, a fitted suit is sexy af.
> 
> Secondly, judging by your name I think you may be spending too much time on Tumblr which is giving you warped views of masculinity. Men aren't the devil like many SJW blogs claim.


Women can get away with being a little more fat than normal (IMO) and with wearing these:









Also, I managed to quit Tumblr because I envied the guys I followed there:









I kind of started hating being a guy long before I got a Tumblr account. I think this was because of browsing Y! Answers (I'm now trying to boycott Yahoo! because they stopped Yahoo! Avatars).


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## Dolorous Haze (Jun 2, 2012)

SJWDefener said:


> Women can get away with being a little more fat than normal (IMO) and with wearing these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wat? Guys can definitely get away with being fat better than women can lol Not that either gender should be fat. Are you overweight? Maybe losing weight will make you feel better.

If you want to wear women's clothing, go for it, nothing wrong with cross dressing.

Envy is an unproductive emotion. Instead, admire the people you 'follow' and try to be more like them.

It sounds to me like you have some issues with your gender and sexuality. Try explore these, ideally with the help of a therapist.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

SJWDefener said:


> Women can get away with being a little more fat than normal (IMO) and with wearing these:


Women not get away with being a little more fat. In fact, if you go to a doctor, nobody gets away with it. If you're too fat you're called upon it and you, eventually, will feel the side effects yourself. I weighted 61kgs for a short period of my life and my father started calling me fat right away. He was overweight as teenager and was constantly mocked for it.

I don't really get envy, I worked very hard for the small things I have and for self-acceptance so I don't really understand anyone who mops about the fact that they don't look as they want. If you're overweight, your only chance is to exercise and eat right, no excuses.

If you have gender problems, go to a doctor, no excuses.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> And what would those clothes be like?


There's no need to describe them since they'd come in many forms, hopefully, not sexualized.



Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> You can get pretty and cheap clothes, you just have to search. With that said, most of the more expensive clothes I own where either gifts or things I wanted to buy for myself. I'm not rich either, so the clothes are few and far between. Most of the things I own I t-shirts I buy on sale for 1 or 2 euros.


Currently all my whole outer clothes are 3 pairs of cheap black sweatpants (it annoys me how decline reaches even clothes like these - years ago it was easily possible to buy sweatpants that had shape of their own and loose legs, now they often closely follow leg shape. I guess something like Karate pants but with ornaments and cargo pants pockets would be nice. I saw some kids wearing something like Karate pants to first communion + white collarless shirt + golden yellow or something ornaments - pretty cool.), about 10 black or red t-shirts, paratrooper boots, 2 or 3 sweaters, black cap, black scarf, dust mask, black bandanna with a white ornaments.
I also have a sewn up black coat.

I have to buy myself sandals and shorts soon because the old ones fell apart, which is rather annoying.

I wished to buy myself an used trench-coat but had to resign because it's rather expensive.

Used to wear black cargo pants but belts and fat concentrated on belly don't belong together.



Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> Printed clothes are a form self-expression. Black is nice, but it's a tricky colour when you live in a mostly hot country.


Printed clothes may be many things. Suits are also a form of self-expression, that is expression of one's soullessness.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> There's no need to describe them since they'd come in many forms, hopefully, not sexualized.
> 
> 
> Currently all my whole outer clothes are 3 pairs of cheap black sweatpants (it annoys me how decline reaches even clothes like these - years ago it was easily possible to buy sweatpants that had shape of their own and loose legs, now they often closely follow leg shape. I guess something like Karate pants but with ornaments and cargo pants pockets would be nice. I saw some kids wearing something like Karate pants to first communion + white collarless shirt + golden yellow or something ornaments - pretty cool.), about 10 black or red t-shirts, paratrooper boots, 2 or 3 sweaters, black cap, black scarf, dust mask, black bandanna with a white ornaments.
> ...


I don't understand why the lack of sexualization is so important. What purpose will it serve? Rape and sexual assault will not end because of it, either will other bad things that happens to people. 


I don't have that many clothes. Of course, I come from a middle class family so things are a bit easier, yet most of my things were bought by me with the little money I've earned over time. 

I'm almost always buying new shoes because I ruin them very quickly. I have shitty feet. 

Like the detective ones? I've bought myself one recently. It's quite stylish. 

I don't like belts in all general directions and I don't have that much fat. 

You don't sell your should through a suit. What sells your soul is your atitude. There are a lot of bad people who don't wear suits and we think they're good people because they dress like me and you.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> I don't understand why the lack of sexualization is so important. What purpose will it serve? Rape and sexual assault will not end because of it, either will other bad things that happens to people.


Why do you think its about other people raping a person wearing sexualized clothes?
Lack of sexualization is important because consent matters when it comes to sexual things.
The point of sexualized clothes is to sexually arouse other people. Other people may not consent to this.



Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> You don't sell your should through a suit. What sells your soul is your atitude. There are a lot of bad people who don't wear suits and we think they're good people because they dress like me and you.


They still wear clothes designed to express soullessness, though.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> Why do you think its about other people raping a person wearing sexualized clothes?
> Lack of sexualization is important because consent matters when it comes to sexual things.
> The point of sexualized clothes is to sexually arouse other people. Other people may not consent to this.
> 
> ...


People will always sexualize each other no matter what they wear. Ugly factory uniforms don't stop them, let alone unisex vlothes

A personality and attitude is more important than that, much more. The real wolves hide in sheep's skin.


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)




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## chickpea (Sep 20, 2014)

@SJWDefener Maybe you should give more thought towards your gender identity. If you envy lesbians and feel like a "kindred spirit" with them maybe you're transgender or genderqueer. You might also be feeling trapped by masculine gender roles which is completely normal and valid. Just something to think about -- let me know if you'd like more resources on that and I'll send them your way.

Also I would just give more thought to your gender, sexuality, and position in society in general. If you're a straight man, regardless of all your sad and irrelevant feelings, you have a lot of privileges in our society over women and queer people. Maybe it's this that makes you feel entitled to lesbians' attraction and attention. Lesbians don't give a shit about you or your sad and creepy feelings of entitlement. And chances are, straight women won't either, until you change your misogynistic attitudes.

To be clear: *women's love for other women is not for male consumption. *


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

xrx said:


> You seem very shallow. Like who gives a fuck? This is offensive. This is like that one white bitch who decided to be black just cuz.
> 
> Being gay has been nothing but shitty for me my whole life, and then people like you make it seem like its just some kind of fucking trend or fashion statement. Ignorance .


Hahahahaha LOVE IT! Well said


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Well see now we've all shamed him into retirement.... I blame the blacks. @bentHnau look at what you did.


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## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

chickpea said:


> *women's love for other women is not for male consumption. *


this is extremely extremely extremely important.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Why would you want to be a lesbian? They sort of have a shit deal. There's a reason things like radical lesbian separatism and "angry lesbian stereotype" exist. 

Go read a book, watch a film, talk to someone. It's really not at all how popular culture would have you think. I'm sure there are some pros, like not having to worry over pregnancy.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but I remembered about this and I've noticed that I've received new replies since I retired. I want to know your opinion on the link I just provided here.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

So basically you envy the lack of frontal competition between women, how easily they can get close to each other and get some attention and pity just by whining like babies.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

IDontThinkSo said:


> how easily they can... get some attention and pity just by whining like babies.


Hopefully not from men, but since most of the population's straight, that's annoyingly going to be unavoidable. If a woman gives a man attention, the man is seen as a "baby" or as being "desperate".


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

SJWDefener said:


> Hopefully not from men, but since most of the population's straight, that's annoyingly going to be unavoidable. If a woman gives a man attention, the man is seen as a "baby" or as being "desperate".


 If a woman gives a man attention, what others see the man depends GREATLY on the situation they're in.


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