# How can this Fi user get along with Fe users?



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Okay I haven't been able to find anything useful on this problem by searching this forum and the internet, so I have decided to pose this as a question. 

I'm an ENTJ and my friend is an ENTP. We have problems when emotions enter. Based on my understanding of the cognitive functions, this seems to be related to the Fi/Fe divide. She wants me to help her solve her emotional problems, which I can't do. And then when I express my emotions, she corrects me, which is deeply invalidating. 

I know the ENTP/ENTJ thing can be kinda rocky. 

Okay... go.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Quasi-identity - Wikisocion


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

In the past I've seen a strong thinking type try and 'correct' the emotions of an ISFJ, who are Fe users. So I'm not sure this is necessarily a Fe/Fi issue. It is a really rude and arrogant thing to claim someone else's emotions are 'wrong.'


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Been through this with an INFJ and another friend. You either need to sit down and openly discuss these conflicts with each other and find ways to be supportive and responsive of each other's needs, or you need to set up emotional boundaries in the relationship and stop looking for a reaction/response you're never going to get (assuming you two can't compromise on how to treat each other).

I know exactly what you mean when you describe feeling invalidated. From one TJ Fi-inferior to another.


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## Agg Herbor (Jun 30, 2013)

your post seems to imply it is a trait of Fe-preferring types to force their emotions upon others. do you think that's the case? elaborate if so.

If your friend lacks emotional stability and looks to you for answers on a subject you dont and frankly cant experience (this being particarly what she feels), it might help to point that out to her. 'solving her emotional problems' is a pretty vague idea, but it at least reveals she isn't grounded enough in her own non-preferential Fi. the problem is seemingly, from your telling of the story, not you


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Fried Eggz said:


> In the past I've seen a strong thinking type try and 'correct' the emotions of an ISFJ, who are Fe users. So I'm not sure this is necessarily a Fe/Fi issue. It is a really rude and arrogant thing to claim someone else's emotions are 'wrong.'


A good point; I think my friend honestly has my best interests in mind but simply jumps to the "solving" part and skips over the "kind listening" part. 



Marlowe said:


> Been through this with an INFJ and another friend. You either need to sit down and openly discuss these conflicts with each other and find ways to be supportive and responsive of each other's needs, or you need to set up emotional boundaries in the relationship and stop looking for a reaction/response you're never going to get (assuming you two can't compromise on how to treat each other).
> 
> I know exactly what you mean when you describe feeling invalidated. From one TJ Fi-inferior to another.


Hey! I'm glad someone else has felt this. I'm kinda... anxious about discussing it with her. Conflict of this sort makes me wanna hide under my bed. I think the primary issue is that she feels that my emotions are something that she needs to solve. I've tried to tell her before that I just want to be listened to; I think this is either unsatisfactory or forgotten when we enter in to emotional issues. 



Agg Herbor said:


> your post seems to imply it is a trait of Fe-preferring types to force their emotions upon others. do you think that's the case? elaborate if so.
> 
> If your friend lacks emotional stability and looks to you for answers on a subject you dont and frankly cant experience (this being particarly what she feels), it might help to point that out to her. 'solving her emotional problems' is a pretty vague idea, but it at least reveals she isn't grounded enough in her own non-preferential Fi. the problem is seemingly, from your telling of the story, not you


No, I don't think that Fe types force their emotions upon others. I think that my friend wants to know what I feel, tries to guess, gets depressed and exasperated when I can't tell her, yet still tries to solve the problem.

I think the problem is that I can't give her what she wants.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

When ENTPs skip over the listening part to the problem solving part... I change subject.

As for dealing with their problems? I just listen.

Sigh.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

The two of you need to get over yourselves. That's the trick.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

default settings said:


> When ENTPs skip over the listening part to the problem solving part... I change subject.
> 
> As for dealing with their problems? I just listen.
> 
> Sigh.


How the heck do you get them to allow you to change the subject?


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## shakti (Oct 10, 2012)

I once had an ENTP friend who dismissed my emotions as "invalid " because they were not "grounded in reality" (her reality, I suppose). Well, that was the last I saw of her 


Have a very honest conversation with her, and try to come to a compromise when it comes the emotional needs of both of you


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> How the heck do you get them to allow you to change the subject?


If
- They try to solve the problem instead of listening
- Can't come up with a way to solve the problem after explaining some of it

It just... seems like the next step in progression of that sequence...


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## Galaxies (Apr 9, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> A good point; I think my friend honestly has my best interests in mind but simply jumps to the "solving" part and skips over the "kind listening" part.


Listening to other people's problems requires a lot of patience for TPs and TJs, they're much more focused on pragmatic solutions, they don't necessarily see listening as a solution to emotional problems. Be patient with her, don't expect too much. If you're not comfortable with a heart-to-heart, next time you want to discuss emotional matters tell her that you're just venting and you don't need advice. She'll listen to all of it and she'll get used to listening to your problems. 

As for helping her, try to find a mutual friend who understands her emotional needs and wants better and learn from them, pay attention to what it is she's trying to say.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

default settings said:


> If
> - They try to solve the problem instead of listening
> - Can't come up with a way to solve the problem after explaining some of it
> 
> It just... seems like the next step in progression of that sequence...


What I meant was: I try to change the subject, they change it back.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> What I meant was: I try to change the subject, they change it back.


Have you given them enough time to make it obvious to them that they don't have an adequate solution and can go no further merely discussing things?


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

default settings said:


> Have you given them enough time to make it obvious to them that they don't have an adequate solution and can go no further merely discussing things?


That usually makes them extremely grumpy and frustrated. The best thing I've found is to stop them before they start solving.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> That usually makes them extremely grumpy and frustrated. The best thing I've found is to stop them before they start solving.


Hmm. I use the topic change to move them onto something that doesn't make them grumpy and frustrated.

But I use the "grumpy and frustrated" to decisively close discussion without exerting too much effort on my part.

I don't see a need in avoiding grumpy and frustrated, as long as it is only a brief state.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Just give up, and find another Fi friend?  

To me it doesn't seem like an issue with Fi/Fe more just an issue with her, coming to terms with people thinking differently from herself. I know plenty of people who use Fe, and they are welcoming when I express myself. They may not agree with it, but they're not going to tell me I am blank out incorrect. 

How you'll solve it? Tell her. There's no other way in knowing whether there is any point in solving it, if you're not willing to work together in coming to an understanding about one another.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

firedell said:


> Just give up, and find another Fi friend?
> 
> To me it doesn't seem like an issue with Fi/Fe more just an issue with her, coming to terms with people thinking differently from herself. I know plenty of people who use Fe, and they are welcoming when I express myself. They may not agree with it, but they're not going to tell me I am blank out incorrect.
> 
> How you'll solve it? Tell her. There's no other way in knowing whether there is any point in solving it, if you're not willing to work together in coming to an understanding about one another.


Yes... yes... I will gather all the Fi users unto myself and create a vast army and then--whoops was I thinking out loud there?


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

It sounds like you have expressed something to your Fe friend that may have sounded horrible to her, so she may think you’re trying to avoid this hard reality of emotions when you say that you’re fine. In other words, she’s projecting how she would feel onto you, thinking you would feel a certain way because she would feel a certain way. So in reality, she thinks you’re avoiding something, and she’s trying to protect you by having you “express your emotions”. I guess you could say she has noticed your lack of expressive emotions (if that’s even true), therefore she thinks you’re running away from your problems, when in fact you’re fine.

The solution is to either convince her that you’re fine and that you don’t need emotional clarity, or to stop coming to her with any problem at all.

I could be completely wrong, but that may help you.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

RunForCover07 said:


> It sounds like you have expressed something to your Fe friend that may have sounded horrible to her, so she may think you’re trying to avoid this hard reality of emotions when you say that you’re fine. In other words, she’s projecting how she would feel onto you, thinking you would feel a certain way because she would feel a certain way. So in reality, she thinks you’re avoiding something, and she’s trying to protect you by having you “express your emotions”. I guess you could say she has noticed your lack of expressive emotions (if that’s even true), therefore she thinks you’re running away from your problems, when in fact you’re fine.
> 
> The solution is to either convince her that you’re fine and that you don’t need emotional clarity, or to stop coming to her with any problem at all.
> 
> I could be completely wrong, but that may help you.


Actually, I'm not even trying to come to her with these problems. I will get upset about something completely unrelated to her and she will push me to tell her about it. She has this insatiable desire to solve what's wrong. 

The worst part is that usually my bad mood will drag her down because she can't solve it and it doesn't make sense to her.


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## Vox (Mar 16, 2012)

machina sensus said:


> A good point; I think my friend honestly has my best interests in mind but simply jumps to the "solving" part and skips over the "kind listening" part.
> 
> Hey! I'm glad someone else has felt this. I'm kinda... anxious about discussing it with her. Conflict of this sort makes me wanna hide under my bed. I think the primary issue is that she feels that my emotions are something that she needs to solve. I've tried to tell her before that I just want to be listened to; I think this is either unsatisfactory or forgotten when we enter in to emotional issues.
> 
> ...


The problems you have with your ENTP friend are exactly the problems my ISFJ friend has with me (well, I call her ISFJ, but I haven't seriously evaluated her type yet. She might very well be an Fi user).

Speaking from an ENTP's perspective (and I'm only going to use first person singular because I can't talk for all ENTPs), carefully considering and trying to find solutions to your problem is exactly how I show I'm listening and I care. It's how I deal with my problems, so there's a sort of undercurrent of, "This method works for me, so I expect it to work for you." But it doesn't, and that's not something that's easy to deal with. What the heck does "kind listening" mean? What does it do for you? How can I show I care with "kind listening?" (Those are rhetorical.) It's difficult to do that, and even if I understand what you want, it's going to be a struggle to do that because it's so much against my natural tendencies.

Like I said, what you've described is exactly what happens whenever my ISFJ friend gets emotional around me. I've learned that I just need to listen and make sure she knows that I'm listening. The way I try to deal with people when they're emotional now is to first ascertain what they want me to do for them, and then try my best to be whatever they want me to be while letting the problem solving run in the background.

Just try to confront her about it. Most ENTPs appreciate bluntness, and if personal experience has any merit, then she'll willingly try to approach emotional topics differently with you. It'd be a major struggle, especially if there's too much strain, but it's possible.



> How the heck do you get them to allow you to change the subject?


It is really not that hard. Unless we get too involved in your problems. Then it's sort of chance-y. Sometimes I get incredibly stubborn and cut off the conversation, and sometimes I'll give up, save it for later, and welcome a change of subject.



> Actually, I'm not even trying to come to her with these problems. I will get upset about something completely unrelated to her and she will push me to tell her about it. She has this insatiable desire to solve what's wrong.
> 
> The worst part is that usually my bad mood will drag her down because she can't solve it and it doesn't make sense to her.


Sounds like me. :crazy: Though I'm gradually learning to let go of things.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

@Vox

Talking to her about it has helped. I've started a new approach. When I feel something and she gives me that look of "what is going on with you," I will say something like "I'm just going to work on feeling this for a bit and when I'm finished, I will let you know and/or be willing to talk about it." 

Now, instead of this constant battle of her trying to solve my problems, we have an ongoing conversation about how I'm just going to feel things and there's nothing to be done about it until I'm good and ready. 

ISFJs are an entirely different problem...


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

machina sensus said:


> Actually, I'm not even trying to come to her with these problems. I will get upset about something completely unrelated to her and she will push me to tell her about it. She has this insatiable desire to solve what's wrong.
> 
> The worst part is that usually my bad mood will drag her down because she can't solve it and it doesn't make sense to her.





machina sensus said:


> @_Vox_
> 
> Talking to her about it has helped. I've started a new approach. When I feel something and she gives me that look of "what is going on with you," I will say something like "I'm just going to work on feeling this for a bit and when I'm finished, I will let you know and/or be willing to talk about it."
> 
> ...



*sigh....the Fi/Fe divide is one of the most complex puzzles in the MBTI world to solve, IMO. Even when both people finally understand how completely different the other one is (quite a task in itself), they both have to put in quite a bit of conscious effort in order to fight against their natural tendencies in order to work with the other.


I remember having conversations in the past with some NTJs about this very topic, and even us *talking* about it was difficult. Both of us were having to walk on eggshells in order to avoid saying something that rubbed the other person the wrong way. Just being myself and saying what came naturally insulted some of the NTJs and them being themselves and saying what came naturally hurt me.

(This isn't always the case, by the way....there's quite a bit of diversity among people of any one type, and I've noticed on this particular issue the Enneagram plays a huge role, too. For example, I noticed this was much tougher for me when conversing with type 5 INTJs vs. type 9 INTJs)


I think what it boils down to is that an Fe user will feel unsettled if they can't feel the same thing as another person, and the Fi user will feel unsettled when they're pushed into trying to feel what another person feels. It's like the Fe user wants unity and the Fi user wants independence. Their own natural desires are in a constant battle.


I think the first big step is understanding of one another and understanding this key difference. The Fe user has got to understand that the Fi user is going to feel enormous frustration if they're told to change their natural feelings. The Fe user needs to understand that the Fi user has a need for independence in emotion and needs to pretty much be allowed to feel what they feel with no judgment or pressure to conform.


At the same time, the Fi user has to understand that the Fe user is going to feel very disconnected and lonely if there's no sharing of emotion. An Fe user has a large need for cooperation and a sense of common emotions.


If they can at least understand that about one another, then they can at least have an idea of where these problems pop up. It can help both of them to stay calm and not get overly frustrated with the other person. It can help them to back up and not jump to quick conclusions or start throwing out blame.



From there, I think it's largely a matter of just kind of trying to work against your own natural inclinations for the sake of the other person. Both sides have to do this or it won't go well.

The Fe user pretty much has to give up any of their need to control. They have to accept that the Fi user has a right to feel whatever they're going to feel and that they can't try to "fix" the Fi user. The Fi user would prefer this freedom rather than being told they need to change their feelings to some universal and objective set of feelings.


The Fi user has to try to have some patience with the Fe user and offer help where they can. They have to be willing to find some common ground from time to time.


Simply put, both people have to understand what the other person wants out of the relationship and basically be able to compromise some. 


I think the other thing that helped me out a lot is analyzing the relationship between Te and Ti. Sometimes I"ve felt like Te users have been trying to control me. I felt like their Te was infringing upon my Ti.

When I understand my Ti's need for independence and freedom of thought and how I feel like Te steps over my personal boundaries, it gives me huge insight as to how my Fe does that to Fi users. It makes me understand what it feels like.

So I think Te users can understand that too. If they can understand how their Te's desire to control and create consistency matches up with an Fe user's need to, they can see how it can be hard to hold back and not try to make others change.



But it sounds like you've already taken some steps in your relationship to do this, so it sounds like you're on the right track.


And again, this is all my opinion based on past conversations that I've had. I may be off on what a lot of Fi users actually feel (and maybe off about what Fe users feel). 






Vox said:


> The problems you have with your ENTP friend are exactly the problems my ISFJ friend has with me (well, I call her ISFJ, but I haven't seriously evaluated her type yet. She might very well be an Fi user).
> 
> Speaking from an ENTP's perspective (and I'm only going to use first person singular because I can't talk for all ENTPs), carefully considering and trying to find solutions to your problem is exactly how I show I'm listening and I care. It's how I deal with my problems, so there's a sort of undercurrent of, "This method works for me, so I expect it to work for you." But it doesn't, and that's not something that's easy to deal with. What the heck does "kind listening" mean? What does it do for you? How can I show I care with "kind listening?" (Those are rhetorical.) It's difficult to do that, and even if I understand what you want, it's going to be a struggle to do that because it's so much against my natural tendencies.
> 
> ...




I'm actually not surprised to hear this happening between you and an ISFJ. I don't think one has to be an Fi user to feel like their perspective is being infringed upon.


In fact, I think ISFJs are notoriously known for complaining about a problem and not wanting to hear a solution. I've had this conversation with INTPs before...the INTP will be driven insane by the ISFJ bringing up a problem but not wanting to hear the solutions the INTP has to offer.




I know from a logical standpoint it doesn't make sense. However, I always like to mention the emotional thought process that I go through with this issue to explain how it works for me as an ISFJ.


The first rule to comfort an ISFJ is....don't give them advice unless they explicitly ask you for it. An ISFJ will be very direct about this. They're not like Ns who like to imply and infer things in this regard. To an NT, when someone talks about a problem, they're implying that they want it to be fixed and will do anything they can to find a solution. They want an immediate solution and they will do anything and everything they can to solve the problem as quickly as possible. 

Again, I understand that this is the most logical way of looking at it. And it's possible in some situations that the ISFJ will reach the point where that's what they're looking for too. However, in these cases, *the ISFJ will directly ask for that advice. * 


(And by the way, if an ISFJ does ask for advice but then resents it...then screw them, there's nothing else that can be done for them at that point, IMO. They have other issues they need to work through first).



However, if an ISFJ is just talking about a problem and doesn't explicitly ask for advice, then that means most likely they don't want advice. 


(I will say that I've learned not to do this with certain people. I've learned that some people don't want to hear complaining or venting without wanting to learn a solution. Out of respect, I don't complain to those kind of people, and I think it would be helpful for ISFJs to learn that.)



So what does the ISFJ want? They want to work through their problem on their own time and in their own way. We discussed in the thread about Ni vs. Si that ISJs take things one step at a time. This can be a very slow process, but it is a very sure way for an ISFJ to find a solution. Other types. often N types, don't have the patience for this. However, for an ISFJ, in the long run it's often the most beneficial for them.


So why does the ISFJ even bring up the problem to anyone else in the first place? They want to feel supported. They want to be listened to. They want to know that they're accepted, valued and loved for who they are, despite their problem. They want to know that no matter what they do, no matter what mistakes they've made, no matter what problems they have, that there's someone on their side. They don't want to feel like someone else expects them to change who they are to be accepted.


I know that this is something an ISFJ should work on. They shouldn't be so dependent and they should be more willing to accept help at the right times.


However, as we talked about in the Ni and Si thread....if another person listens to their problem and tries to give them advice, they'll feel like the other person doesn't understand the problem. They feel like they haven't told enough details yet and that the other person doesn't care about their situation. They feel like the other person is just trying to boss them around. 

I know I feel that way sometimes. I feel like the other person doesn't have all of the exact details and knowledge of the situation that I have. I feel like their input doesn't take into account my experiences and feelings because they don't know what it's like to be in my situation. So that's why I feel like I want to solve the problem on my own....but I want to know that they're still going to support me.



Again, I know this probably sounds insane to NTs. I know that it's not the most logical way of taking care of something and certainly not the fastest. And as I mentioned, it's best when the ISFJ learns to adapt and not take the NT's help as a criticism. But I also think an NT trying to understand the emotional state of the ISFJ makes the whole process easier.





It reminds me of this video. This video was billed as a difference between men and women, but I find that extremely inaccurate. I find the man in this video to be an NT (or maybe any kind of thinker, or maybe even just an N), and I find the woman to be very ISFJish (or maybe an ESFJ, but at least some kind of feeler). I cringe when I watch this video because it makes the woman look so stupid and I feel like it doesn't convey her emotional state very well....it's almost like this is what it looks like from an NT's perspective. But even though I know she looks stupid in it, I can actually relate quite well to the feelings of the woman, even though the situation is kind of absurd.













And sorry if this is hijacking the thread to talk about ISFJ issues. This is just a personal area that I'm kind of passionate about.


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## Mikasa (Jun 15, 2013)

@*teddy564339 

*Very nice post. It puts things into an interesting perspective.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

@teddy564339

Wow! It's like you appeared at the mere mention of ISFJ :tongue:

So, the reason I said "ISFJs are an entirely different problem" is because quite frankly, ISFJ + ENTJ (my type) is a TERRIBLE idea. I find the essence of the problem to be this: the ISFJ is a person who prioritizes other people. This is a great quality in some ways. But I am the definition of independent. I do what I want. I don't do anything I don't want to do. I do prioritize people. But I don't prioritize people _over my own independence_. Maybe in a special situation I will do something even though it conflicts with my independence, but not usually. The ISFJ _will do things that they don't want to do_ when I ask them. This is a huge problem because they start to resent me, even though from my perspective there's nothing wrong! 

When I am friends with an ISFJ, I notice a pattern. First of all, they try and solve my emotional problems. That's infuriating because I just want them to listen. They get offended or hurt that I don't like their advice, because they prioritized me in order to talk to me about my emotions. 

Second, the ISFJ seems to never know what I actually want, _but never asks_. This drives me up the wall! The ISFJ constantly makes assumptions. 

Third, is the problem of controlling that I mentioned above. The ISFJ seems like a willing martyr to simply let me walk all over them. When I actually realized this I got angry, because I would never allow someone to do that. 

All the cognitive functions between the ISFJ (Si>Fe>Ti>Ne) and ENTJ (Te>Ni>Se>Fi) clash. Having the J in common is relatively useless because the ISFJ prioritizes others. The *only* letter I've seen work is the introvert/extrovert divide. It's a performer/audience relationship thing. 

So yes, those are my frustrations :angry:


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

You'll need to wear a disguise.

Namely, this:










Only then, can you penetrate the ranks of Fe-nity.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

machina sensus said:


> @teddy564339
> 
> 
> Wow! It's like you appeared at the mere mention of ISFJ



Ha ha...well, I had actually been following this thread for a bit because Fi vs. Fe fascinates me, but I didn't really see a good spot to introduce my thoughts. It was actually Vox's comments that really got me going because we had actually been discussing Si and Ne a bit in another thread.


But I'm hoping I'm not derailing your thread too much. I actually have some more things I thought of in regards to my previous post that I'll probably add in....but first I want to respond to your points below, because they're spot on.








machina sensus said:


> So, the reason I said "ISFJs are an entirely different problem" is because quite frankly, ISFJ + ENTJ (my type) is a TERRIBLE idea. I find the essence of the problem to be this: the ISFJ is a person who prioritizes other people. This is a great quality in some ways. But I am the definition of independent. I do what I want. I don't do anything I don't want to do. I do prioritize people. But I don't prioritize people over my own independence. Maybe in a special situation I will do something even though it conflicts with my independence, but not usually. The ISFJ will do things that they don't want to do when I ask them. This is a huge problem because they start to resent me, even though from my perspective there's nothing wrong!
> 
> 
> When I am friends with an ISFJ, I notice a pattern. First of all, they try and solve my emotional problems. That's infuriating because I just want them to listen. They get offended or hurt that I don't like their advice, because they prioritized me in order to talk to me about my emotions.
> ...



In general, I've noticed that the two types that I have the most trouble getting along with are ENTJs and INTJs (INTJs more online, ENTJs more IRL). It's not really tht big of a deal because I generally don't interact with any, but all of the reasons you mentioned play into it. Of course, the functions are the biggest part because we have none in common, as you mentioned.

However, I learned a lot about this from some conversations that I've had in the past with some INTJs. The biggest lesson I learned was that it's ok for people to be incompatible. Everyone doesn't always have to get along.

I used to feel like everyone should or could get along. I used to feel that if someone didn't like me, it's because I was doing something wrong or because there was something wrong with me. What I learned from the INTJs (who are probably even more independent than ENTJs) is that it's ok if I'm incompatible with someone or if we don't like each other. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with either of us. We don't have to always try to change just to get along and we can accept each other for who we are and not feel like it's wrong for the other person to be who they are.

However, this goes against my natural inclinations, and I can see how an ISFJ who knows nothing about the MBTI (and even those who do) would never think about what I learned. So I think ISFJs have a natural desire to please others and to make everyone happy, even if it means going against their own natural wishes. Unfortunately for them, they an only keep this up for so long before they start harboring anger and bottling it up inside, which leads to faulty communication.

Now, if an ISFJ receives constant validation and affirmation of acceptance, they usually can continue on pleasing others happily. Yes, it makes them more dependent and it's not the situation for optimal growth, but they can still probably at least go through life feeling overall happy.

The problem, of course, as you mentioned is that this goes completely against what NTJs want in life. NTJs want to challenge and be challenged. They want independence and want others to be independent. They want to constantly dig deeper to the point of making things perfect logically. All of these things tend to be stressful for an ISFJ, so it makes these kinds of relationships very strained, particularly if they are close ones.

the other issue with ISFJs is one you touched on, which is their "need to be needed". This goes back to the Fi/Fe topic that we discussed. An ISFJ tends to only feel valuable when they can help others emotionally. They want to be able to solve social problems. They want to depend on others emotionally and want others to depend on them emotionally. As you mentioned, this is the opposite of what NTJs need, which is emotional freedom and independence. 


Now, if an ISFJ focuses on growing, they can work on improving some of these issues in themselves. An ISFJ doesn't have to be so dependent upon others. They can learn to base their confidence in themselves and do what's right for them rather than relying on others for their emotional security. However, this takes tons of practice and work, and it makes an ISFJ have to go against their natural inclinations.

I've also noticed that I get along with STJs much more easily than I do with NTJs. I think this is because STJs don't want to challenged as much as NTJs do....I think they prefer to keep things the same because of their Si. So I think it's easier for ISFJs to learn their boundaries and to see where they fit in.


So yes, you are right that it makes a difficult pairing.

however, like so many things involving type, I don't think it's a universal rule that ISFJs can never get along with NTJs. I've noticed a huge diversity among NTJs on PerC. Part if it involves the Enneagram. However, I think a lot of it also has to deal with natural interests as well as how much the person has grown and looked into their other functions. I already talked about how an ISFJ can do this...they can work to be less sensitive, more assertive, and more independent. 

As for ENTJs, I really love this post made by an ENTJ. I feel like if all ENTJs did this, I would probably be able to get along with them just fine. Of courses not all ISFJs would...especially one who knows nothing about the MBTI and wasn't willing to improve themselves.



ENTJGirlLA said:


> Bottom line an undeveloped/immature person is an undeveloped/immature person. I've seen a lot of "they were bossy so they must be an ENTJ" which is an incorrect assumption - I am NOT bossy because I'm not socially inept.
> 
> 
> More often than not, people are intimidated by ENTJs - I have worked to minimize this but don't feel like minimizing my character for someone else's insecurities.
> ...


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

I was thinking about how me and my ENTJ friend deal with the whole Fi Vs Fe thing. To be completely honest, he is the one that’s drawn to me, where I feel there is a disconnect with Fi. Him and I can sit and talk about the meaning of things for hours from different perspectives, which I enjoy greatly.

But, I had a really hard time with connecting to him on a personal level. It always felt like a tug and pull effect. There would be moments where he would be close to opening up to me, but he would withdraw, and the same thing would happen with me in return. I think this may be different with INFJs versus ISFJs with ENTJs, because I can intuitively sense how he’s feeling, but I can’t connect to him on a personable level, which makes me feel like I don’t know him at all, but he probably feels the same way in return.

I like to say INFJs are a little bit of a mix of Fe and Fi, we really get a feel for who we're talking to, so we have an idea of when to use Fe or to withdraw on our emotions, especially when talking to NTs, because they can be a bit on the blunt side. so, I think when I do show Fe around him he's really confused of how I'm able to do it, and yet still remove my emotions at times when I talk to him about his logic and ideas.

I thought that was interesting seeing the differences between Teddy's experience with your type and my own.

I like ENTJs, but they can drain me pretty quickly, and they always want me to stay around longer than I want to. Haha.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

RunForCover07 said:


> I thought that was interesting seeing the differences between Teddy's experience with your type and my own.


Yeah, it really is amazing how big if a difference having the Si or the Ni in common makes. I am extremely close with my ISTJ mom and we're on the same page on just about everything, while there's a lot of friction between me and many INTJs that I talk to. I know you've had some difficulties with your ESTJ mom as well.


Of course, this isn't too surprising given how much we've looked into Ni and Si. Even with our introversion and our Fe/Ti levels in common, we still have many differences between us.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

RunForCover07 said:


> I was thinking about how me and my ENTJ friend deal with the whole Fi Vs Fe thing. To be completely honest, he is the one that’s drawn to me, where I feel there is a disconnect with Fi. Him and I can sit and talk about the meaning of things for hours from different perspectives, which I enjoy greatly.
> 
> But, I had a really hard time with connecting to him on a personal level. It always felt like a tug and pull effect. There would be moments where he would be close to opening up to me, but he would withdraw, and the same thing would happen with me in return. I think this may be different with INFJs versus ISFJs with ENTJs, because I can intuitively sense how he’s feeling, but I can’t connect to him on a personable level, which makes me feel like I don’t know him at all, but he probably feels the same way in return.
> 
> ...


This sounds exactly like my interactions with my INFJ friend/roommate. I'm wondering now how a Fi user, or how specifically an ENTJ, can "hear" a Fe user's emotions. Seems impossible.


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> This sounds exactly like my interactions with my INFJ friend/roommate. I'm wondering now how a Fi user, or how specifically an ENTJ, can "hear" a Fe user's emotions. Seems impossible.


Well, my Ni is introverted and My Fe is extroverted, so I would think an ENTJ would see me outwardly expressing my emotions first. My ENTJ friend said to me once, "You're a really good guy, and I admire that about you. I feel like a sociopath." I think he sees it with how I interact with others around us, and how I might withdraw those same actions with him because he's more logical than emotional, I know better to try and share poems and mushy shit with him. I even had him apologize to me once for playing music that had a bit of emotional vibe to it.

To an INFJ, you guys seem so...torn with your emotions. Maybe lost is a better word. If I could explain it, I always felt like he wanted to lead me and pick me up, but in the end I always feel like I need to do that for him. Leadership roles in this dynmaic can be confusing, because both types are very independent in their own right, so it can kind of be bittersweet.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

RunForCover07 said:


> Well, my Ni is introverted and My Fe is extroverted, so I would think an ENTJ would see me outwardly expressing my emotions first. My ENTJ friend said to me once, "You're a really good guy, and I admire that about you. I feel like a sociopath." I think he sees it with how I interact with others around us, and how I might withdraw those same actions with him because he's more logical than emotional, I know better to try and share poems and mushy shit with him. I even had him apologize to me once for playing music that had a bit of emotional vibe to it.
> 
> To an INFJ, you guys seem so...torn with your emotions. Maybe lost is a better word. If I could explain it, I always felt like he wanted to lead me and pick me up, but in the end I always feel like I need to do that for him. Leadership roles in this dynmaic can be confusing, because both types are very independent in their own right, so it can kind of be bittersweet.


That's true; I was actually thinking of my ENTP (Ne>Ti>Fe>Si) friend who I find almost impossible to "hear" when she's emotional, she has to tell me. My INFJ friend is clear enough, I think. 

And yes, my INFJ friend sees that torn with emotions things.


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> That's true; I was actually thinking of my ENTP (Ne>Ti>Fe>Si) friend who I find almost impossible to "hear" when she's emotional, she has to tell me. My INFJ friend is clear enough, I think.
> 
> And yes, my INFJ friend sees that torn with emotions things.


It's probably clear to you because we both share Ni, therefore we can understand where Fi and Fe are coming from in that aspect. But, I would say that although the Fe isn't as pushy and forward in this dynamic, the INFJ will want some emotions brought to the table to connect on a personal level at times, just maybe not as much as an ENTP or ISFJ would require.

I say that because ISFJs don't have Ni at all, and their inferior is Ne. Their Fe might drive you crazy, which you kind of explained. I think it comes down to Ne and Fe that you're having trouble with here.

I could be wrong, I'm just trying to make connections. But if you're interested in proper information, maybe you should see how Ne and Fe work together for an ENTP to see how that may grinds your gears as an ENTJ. You might actually figure out a way to tolerate or communicate with her Fe better. I don't think it's just Fi/Fe.

It's kind of how I can see the difference in Fi between an INFP and an ENTJ.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

RunForCover07 said:


> It's probably clear to you because we both share Ni, therefore we can understand where Fi and Fe are coming from in that aspect. But, I would say that although the Fe isn't as pushy and forward in this dynamic, the INFJ will want some emotions brought to the table to connect on a personal level at times, just maybe not as much as an ENTP or ISFJ would require.
> 
> I say that because ISFJs don't have Ni at all, and their inferior is Ne. Their Fe might drive you crazy, which you kind of explained. I think it comes down to Ne and Fe that you're having trouble with here.
> 
> ...


Do you have thoughts about how Fe and Ne work together and how to deal with those types?


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> Do you have thoughts about how Fe and Ne work together and how to deal with those types?


I'm still new to all of this, so I'm trying to do some proper research. 

I have come across these. I don't know if you'll find them helpful.

http://personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/114202-how-help-entp-ne-fe-loop.html
http://personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/163810-ne-fe-dominant-tertiary-loops.html


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

RunForCover07 said:


> I'm still new to all of this, so I'm trying to do some proper research.
> 
> I have come across these. I don't know if you'll find them helpful.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links. I continue to pursue this issue.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

@_teddy564339_
Your posts are some of the most amazing I've read on PerC.
Clear, thorough, honest, and nicely presented.

Truly a service to anyone who happens upon them!


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

teddy564339 said:


> I think what it boils down to is that an Fe user will feel unsettled if they can't feel the same thing as another person, and the Fi user will feel unsettled when they're pushed into trying to feel what another person feels. It's like the Fe user wants unity and the Fi user wants independence. Their own natural desires are in a constant battle.
> 
> [...]
> At the same time, the Fi user has to understand that the Fe user is going to feel very disconnected and lonely if there's no sharing of emotion. An Fe user has a large need for cooperation and a sense of common emotions.


Nice summary!


The disconnect for me (a Fi user) starts at understanding a need or tendency towards "common emotions." It's a complete assault to the sense of individuality I treasure in people. And I have grown to not "trust" (high) Fe users to ever be telling me the complete truth about themselves because of this. They shift & mold so as not to disrupt. When all I want to know is what *you* actually want or feel. What's true and what's not true? What's you and what's actually (you reflecting) me?


I've oddly known a substantial number of NFJs in my lifetime, and recently recognized that despite finding them to be the most endearing, genuine, & warm people in the world, in the end, the only ones I retain in my life are the ones I am DNA-bound to (or quite nearly). That lack of realizing individuality (in themselves/around me) ultimately drives me away.



_It's not insurmountable!_ Of course. But (high) Te's eventually going to measure what's needed to maintain the relationship vs. the benefits to both sides. *Te leads to this*: 


machina sensus said:


> I think the problem is that I can't give her what she wants.


It's exactly what I've come to conclude before.

While the Fe users' *Ti* might be thinking: _just gather more information_, as their *Fe* drives: _just create more harmony_.


____
I don't know what the solution is. My *Te *tells me it's an uphill battle and talking won't ultimately "fix" something that's a fundamental gap. It's a helpless feeling when you realize you can't give someone what he/she needs. All you can do is try if it's important enough to you.




RunForCover07 said:


> It's probably clear to you because we both share Ni, [...]
> I say that because ISFJs don't have Ni at all, and their inferior is Ne. Their Fe might drive you crazy, which you kind of explained. I think it comes down to Ne and Fe that you're having trouble with here.


Supposedly, ISFJ and ENTP both have zero of the top 4 functions in common with NTJ, so it might not be the Ne but the combo of Fe & Ti. Or the even more opposing combo of Ne + Fe-Ti. (Which supposes Si.-> Complete opposites.)


Meanwhile, NFJ & NTJ share Ni & Se. With NFJs, I've usually drawn the same general conclusions about things but have a different focus within or without that. e.g. "People are different and there's nothing wrong with that." NFJ might want to bridge the differences. NTJ might want to respect the differences as just that and not look to forge uneasy compatibilities.


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

smallpeas said:


> Nice summary!
> 
> 
> The disconnect for me (a Fi user) starts at understanding a need or tendency towards "common emotions." It's a complete assault to the sense of individuality I treasure in people. And I have grown to not "trust" (high) Fe users to ever be telling me the complete truth about themselves because of this. They shift & mold so as not to disrupt. When all I want to know is what *you* actually want or feel. What's true and what's not true? What's you and what's actually (you reflecting) me?
> ...


You might be onto something here.



> I've oddly known a substantial number of NFJs in my lifetime, and recently recognized that despite finding them to be the most endearing, genuine, & warm people in the world, in the end, the only ones I retain in my life are the ones I am DNA-bound to (or quite nearly). That lack of realizing individuality (in themselves/around me) ultimately drives me away.


They must trust you or a good number of them are ENFJs. I need my independence, and actually drive people away for the same reason as you.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

RunForCover07 said:


> They must trust you or a good number of them are ENFJs. I need my independence, and actually drive people away for the same reason as you.


Some tested INFJs & some obvious INFJs. But yes, they were all people I was best-friend level close to at some point. +1 ENTP. (And I loved & respected them though I may not have really _felt_ emotionally close to them. And likely vice versa. I _felt_ understood & accepted by them.)


I would say these people were all definitely *independent*--going out in the world, doing their chosen thing, etc. But they weren't necessarily what _I_ would call *individual* (as in _self_). 

Fi types seem to be about uniqueness. And Fe types, universality. To a Fi user, universality can start to feel like uniformity. And to a Fe user, I imagine uniqueness can start to feel like insularity.


What I felt drive me away was _(in my eyes)_ these people not being able to _or_ just not asserting their own "uniqueness." For me, that starts to feel like he/she doesn't believe in it, doesn't have any, or wants me/others to define or supply it for him/her. (Which can wear like codependence.) And all of those go against the concept of uniqueness. It's basically a negation of the core of how & what I value in life. 

I imagine something similar but opposite for Fe users dealing with Fi types.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

machina sensus said:


> I recognize that the cognitive functions of the ENTJ and the ENTP are all completely different. My intention in posting this forum post had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I should hang out with this person.
> 
> My personal experience with this person has been amazing. We have a great time talking about things and analyzing. We "get" each other intellectually. We've had issues with emotions, but we're working it out by listening and trying to be more clear. It's not about MBTI, it's about being a friend.


Well then.
If it is not about MBTI I suggest you make a new thread in the advice center.
Remove all references to MBTI and approach it from a ordinary angle.
My friend is being this and that etc.
You got to realize that by going to this subforum you get people like me who don't even see the people.
All I see is functions and roles, cause that is the frame I'm attacking things from.
I don't expect people to want a personal humanistic approach to it.

But whatever...
***Sits up straight, and opens first page in a new tab***



> I will get upset about something completely unrelated to her and she will push me to tell her about it. She has this insatiable desire to solve what's wrong.


So she is on the "what is wrong" bandwagon...
The trick is not biting the bait.
Tell her that you flipped your libido by accident and you are trying to figure out how to flip it back.
Or whatever other general concept in psychology that would describe your state in a meta way.
Like oh I fell into my enneagram disintegration and now I'm stuck at point X.
Now she can help you from a detached perspective without your feelings even being a topic.
If she wants to fix you give her something she can actually work with without breaking you.


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

machina sensus said:


> That usually makes them extremely grumpy and frustrated. The best thing I've found is to stop them before they start solving.


really, people are only looking for someone to listen actively.
example: 
1: I'm so frustrated that my husband was late
2: I'm sorry to hear that, what happened (my first thought, however was to buy him a damned watch so I could escape the convo)
1: he was late because he lost track of time (what I hear is blah de blah de)
2: that's really annoying as it's disrespectful of your time ( what I think- this is the only way out of the convo without hurt feelings)
1: I know it!
2: now it's safe to change topic unlessssss they have the annoyed inflection still in their voice.

you really have to do the active listening to upkeep your Fe friends. and some F doms. if you think about it, NTJ and STJ feel more validated when someone actively listens to them, too, even if we may not be practiced at it to realize what's happening.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

hornet said:


> Well then.
> If it is not about MBTI I suggest you make a new thread in the advice center.
> Remove all references to MBTI and approach it from a ordinary angle.
> My friend is being this and that etc.
> ...


My point was that I didn't take kindly to your lighthearted declaration that my friendship with this person did not mean anything and that I should just discuss, what was it? Random research things with her? As if my friendship means nothing.


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## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Tea Path said:


> really, people are only looking for someone to listen actively.
> example:
> 1: I'm so frustrated that my husband was late
> 2: I'm sorry to hear that, what happened (my first thought, however was to buy him a damned watch so I could escape the convo)
> ...


Agreed. I do listen to her. I was having a problem with her not listening to me.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

machina sensus said:


> My point was that I didn't take kindly to your lighthearted declaration that my friendship with this person did not mean anything and that I should just discuss, what was it? Random research things with her? As if my friendship means nothing.


So be unkind then.
You got what you asked for.
***Unsubcribes***


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Tea Path said:


> really, people are only looking for someone to listen actively.
> example:
> 1: I'm so frustrated that my husband was late
> 2: I'm sorry to hear that, what happened (my first thought, however was to buy him a damned watch so I could escape the convo)
> ...




Yeah, I think the thing is that everyone wants to be listened to, as you said. The differences lie in what people want to talk about, and I think because these are different, it sometimes feels like the other person is trying to change the direction of the conversation instead of listening to what the other person believes is the important part.



For example, a Te user may talk to me about a problem they've encountered with another person. They may see the other person as making a dumb decision, and they may even go as far as to tell me what they should do.

Sometimes as an Fe/Ti user, my first natural instinct will be a desire to have the two people get along. My Fe will want harmony, and my Ti will tell me that there's not enough information to know how the conflict could be solved. So naturally, I may start thinking about how the other person feels in the situation...I'd want to see it from their point of view and I'd want the two people to understand each other. My gut feeling would be if the two people both understood each other's perspectives, then they would be able to solve their conflict more easily.


Of course, this is a pretty stupid thing for me to do. First off, it would assume that I would be able to get the other person to talk to me at all even though in reality I would probably never even talk to the other person. But I think the bigger issue is that the Te user would probably feel like I wasn't listening or understanding their side of things....they didn't tell me about it because they needed me to solve their conflict, they told me about it because I"m their friend and they just wanted me to listen to their thoughts. It's almost like they needed to get it out of their system to someone who they viewed as being logically competent, so they would feel like at least someone understood the logic of the situation.



(I may be wrong about this from the Te users' perspectives, this is just my impression based on what I've seen in the past).



When it happens the other way around, it's a similar situation but not quite the same. An Fe user may be more apt to talk about a problem they have with a particular situation...not necessarily a problem with another person being stupid, but just a problem in general that they're having trouble solving. The Te user may see a logical solution, so they may offer their input as to how the Fe user should change. But the Fe user may not want that at that particular time...they may just want to be able to vent about their problem to someone that they feel emotionally "safe" with.



So it's almost like both are being told things they don't want/need at that particular time. The Te user just wants someone to listen to and understand them on a logical level....they don't want to hear how they might be socially wrong or how they could improve. The Fe user just wants someone to listen to and understand them on an emotional level...they don't want to hear they're logically wrong and how they could improve.





I may be wrong about all of this, but it's the vibe that I've gotten. I think these are examples of Fe imposing on the weaker Fi that Te users have and the reverse example of Te imposing on the weaker Ti that Fe users have.

I don't know exactly how it works when Te/Fi/Fe/Ti are in different places on the function stack, but I imagine it's fairly similar.




I just brought all of that up because that last little bit really made me think of it.



I also think the problem is a lot worse when the two types don't have the same S and N functions, because then the communication gets even more thrown off and the two types really don't feel like the other person is understanding them.


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

machina sensus said:


> Agreed. I do listen to her. I was having a problem with her not listening to me.


then,alas, ain't no fixing that :-(


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