# Sx/So vs. Sx/Sp (to the death?)



## sodden

kaleidoscope said:


> I see what you're saying, it is a pretty tricky thing for a core 4. Personally, I do feel like my main drive is Sx, and the Sp is just here to hold me back, much like emergency brakes. The way I see it, Sx just wants to raise the temperature in a room indefinitely, and Sp is here as a thermostat, alerting me when things become too much. It acts like a temporary mediator, and once things have cooled off enough, my Sx is activated yet again. There's this constant fluctuating that's just exhausting sometimes :bored:
> 
> 
> For an Sp/Sx, I imagine Sp would be wanting to maintain the temperature in the room at comfortable, mild degrees. While it may rise in bursts sometimes due to Sx, Sp always manages to contain it and bring it back to the initial level.


Yes, that is a very good way to put it. It's like in that typewatch description for the midrange sp/sx: _Moderation in all things except moderation._ There is a desire for keeping things pretty level, but then the sx gets restless and amps it up for a bit, but then it's time to return to moderation. Following that train of thought, it makes sense that a sp/sx with low sx would want primarily moderation with very slight levels of intensity and then when you get to the sp/sx with the strong sx, that person can only handle so much moderation before they start to lose it, then the intensity will be too much, then they'll want calm, etc, lots of off/on. In that vein, it makes sense that there would be a confusion between that stacking and the midrange sx/sp, because there is an element of _what the hell does this person want?!?_


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## kaleidoscope

@_brainheart_

Yes exactly, that's why I was confused between Sx/Sp midrange and Sp/Sx midrange ^^ I think what's the distinguishing factor is the primary drive, the secondary one only serves it and is nowhere near as predominant behind a person's behavior. 

What helped me figure it out, is looking back and realizing how much driven I am by this search for intimacy, bonding, merging, connection. I am nowhere near as concerned with my own comfort and basic needs, especially at first. They only start settling in after I've acquired the object of my desires, but even so, they're very faded and in the background, rather than a primary concern.


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## Arrow

I remember someone posted once that Sx/Sp variants want to knock down all boundries, while Sx/So are more likely to just get keys to the doors and then lock the door behind them. I have to say I agree with this. I hate having barriers but I am very respectful of others boundaries and feel the need to uphold and protect peoples privacy. I need to be included and if that means excluding others to protect the feelings of others then I am fine with that. I wonder how others feel in the sexual variants feel about this?


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## Bumblyjack

Arrow said:


> I remember someone posted once that Sx/Sp variants want to knock down all boundries, while Sx/So are more likely to just get keys to the doors and then lock the door behind them. I have to say I agree with this. I hate having barriers but I am very respectful of others boundaries and feel the need to uphold and protect peoples privacy. I need to be included and if that means excluding others to protect the feelings of others then I am fine with that. I wonder how others feel in the sexual variants feel about this?


Are you referring to this?



Bumblyjack said:


> Sp/Sx's naturally construct barriers. Sometimes it's intentional but a lot of times it's without even thinking. Sx/Sp's hate barriers because they separate people, prevent merging, and buffer intensity. Sx/Sp's naturally seek to tear down barriers. As you can see, these types work against each other.
> 
> Interestingly, Sx/So's deal with barriers in a different manner. They like to find the keys to the locks. That way they can come and go as they please and shut and lock the door behind them. This goes over better with Sp/Sx's because letting the Sx/So in doesn't mean they have to let everyone else in too (like the Sx/Sp's behavior seems to demand of them). They can keep to what feels comfortable: choosing how close they will connect with people on an individual, case-by-case basis. The Sx/Sp wants to connect with everyone as closely as possible without restraint (though they can't actually handle this, so they end up exhibiting push-and-pull behavior).


I've heard this described elsewhere as "the sexual instinct flowing into the self preservation instinct in Sx/So" and "the sexual instinct flowing into the social instinct in Sx/Sp". There's a certain exclusivity within the bond between an Sx/So and his or her significant other. While their relationship is public knowledge, it's as if there is still some secret, a special bond between the two that others can only get the slightest glimpse of. With the Sx/Sp, it's as if their bond is turned face outwards, with the bond between the two pouring out into their other relationships and human interactions.

The flow currents are briefly discussed near the end of this article in the section on "Flow of Instinctual Energies".
Flow for Sx/So, So/Sp, and Sp/Sx: So -> Sx -> Sp -> So
Flow for Sx/Sp, Sp/So, and So/Sx: So <- Sx <- Sp <- So


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## sleeper

I'd be interested in hearing if any sx/sp has experience dating an sx/so or vice versa. I have an sx/so friend and in social settings it becomes apparent we are be pulled in different directions (me going inwards and her moving further out and loving it). It paralyzes me a bit at times. Anyway, one-on-one, her energy keeps fuming out in different directions with incredibly frenetic moments and then quieter, focused ones. It has never been uncomfortable, but it makes me wonder how that would look in a relationship. The realm of Gods mixing with the realm of starving ghosts is a strange way of looking at it - the holy and undead. I imagine the sx/sp would feel a bit alienated. I read something by William LaFleur on gaki/hungry ghosts last year for a class and very much related. It's weird to find this out now about the relation to instinctual energies. I got a mix of strange looks and nervous laughter when I pensively mentioned I related to gaki in class.


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## treeghost

sleeper said:


> I'd be interested in hearing if any sx/sp has experience dating an sx/so or vice versa. I have an sx/so friend and in social settings it becomes apparent we are be pulled in different directions (me going inwards and her moving further out and loving it). It paralyzes me a bit at times. Anyway, one-on-one, her energy keeps fuming out in different directions with incredibly frenetic moments and then quieter, focused ones. It has never been uncomfortable, but it makes me wonder how that would look in a relationship. The realm of Gods mixing with the realm of starving ghosts is a strange way of looking at it - the holy and undead. I imagine the sx/sp would feel a bit alienated. I read something by William LaFleur on gaki/hungry ghosts last year for a class and very much related. It's weird to find this out now about the relation to instinctual energies. I got a mix of strange looks and nervous laughter when I pensively mentioned I related to gaki in class.


This guy I had been on and off with and are distant friends right now, whatever that means, is variant Sx/So. I get really frustrated when I feel so close to him then all of a sudden he disappears. It's like.. *blinkblink*, what happened? Lol. It's pretty funny when I think about it now. There's always one foot out of the water with him, very lightning strikes everywhere, then striking and focusing at one spot before zooming off again. When the aim is centered, it's electrifying.


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## sodden

Bumblyjack said:


> The flow currents are briefly discussed near the end of this article in the section on "Flow of Instinctual Energies".


Wow! The whole relationship to the Bhavacakra is really fascinating (and I think enlightening). From the wikipedia article on pretas: "The sufferings of the pretas often resemble those of the dwellers in hell, and the two types of being are easily confused. The simplest distinction is that beings in hell are confined to their subterranean world, while pretas are free to move about." 

I can definitely see that, hell dwellers (sp/sx) feel more attached to their environment- chained, in a way- while pretas (sx/sp) are more the wanderers who really _can't_ stay in one place. I can also see how both sp/sx and sx/sp have a lot in common, both dwelling in the underworld, while sx/so is in a completely different realm from both. This makes more sense to me than the flow/contra flow explanation, because I really feel a greater connection/soul mate status with sx/sp types than any other type (especially sx/so and so/sp).

Also, I am married to someone who is very much in the human realm, and oddly, I've been torn between so/sx and sp/so for his type, which seemed really contradictory, but now reading this it makes a lot more sense.


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## StellarTwirl

Bumblyjack said:


> Are you referring to this?
> 
> 
> 
> Sp/Sx's naturally construct barriers. Sometimes it's intentional but a lot of times it's without even thinking. Sx/Sp's hate barriers because they separate people, prevent merging, and buffer intensity. Sx/Sp's naturally seek to tear down barriers. As you can see, these types work against each other.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this, because your post made me change my stacking. I absolutely do that barrier thing, pretty much on instinct.

I previously identified with sx-dom, because I absolutely do NOT shy away from intense things, intense people, intense experiences. I just crave more and more.

But the traffic isn't balanced ... I take it all in while simultaneously limiting what I put out. It's not a constant expulsion with me, like it is for an sx ... more of a periodic spurting out from within.


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## Bumblyjack

sleeper said:


> I'd be interested in hearing if any sx/sp has experience dating an sx/so or vice versa... It has never been uncomfortable, but it makes me wonder how that would look in a relationship. The realm of Gods mixing with the realm of starving ghosts is a strange way of looking at it - the holy and undead. I imagine the sx/sp would feel a bit alienated. I read something by William LaFleur on gaki/hungry ghosts last year for a class and very much related. It's weird to find this out now about the relation to instinctual energies. I got a mix of strange looks and nervous laughter when I pensively mentioned I related to gaki in class.


Actually, in this system the Gods are not holy. They are very powerful but their power is their downfall (think of "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and similar notions). It leads to their doom in the next life of being reincarnated as a lesser form. Humans are actually viewed as the best to be because they have the most control over their destiny.



treeghost said:


> This guy I had been on and off with and are distant friends right now, whatever that means, is variant Sx/So. I get really frustrated when I feel so close to him then all of a sudden he disappears. It's like.. *blinkblink*, what happened? Lol. It's pretty funny when I think about it now. There's always one foot out of the water with him, very lightning strikes everywhere, then striking and focusing at one spot before zooming off again. When the aim is centered, it's electrifying.


This sounds very similar to my Sx/So father's relationship seems to be with his Sx/Sp girlfriend. It functions similar to him being a part-time employee at some company, going in and really working his ass off when he's on the clock, but then packing up everything from his desk when his shift is over as if he's never coming back. When he's there, he's there 100%. But when he's not there, he's not there at all.


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## Bumblyjack

brainheart said:


> Wow! The whole relationship to the Bhavacakra is really fascinating (and I think enlightening). From the wikipedia article on pretas: "The sufferings of the pretas often resemble those of the dwellers in hell, and the two types of being are easily confused. The simplest distinction is that beings in hell are confined to their subterranean world, while pretas are free to move about."
> 
> I can definitely see that, hell dwellers (sp/sx) feel more attached to their environment- chained, in a way- while pretas (sx/sp) are more the wanderers who really _can't_ stay in one place. I can also see how both sp/sx and sx/sp have a lot in common, both dwelling in the underworld, while sx/so is in a completely different realm from both. This makes more sense to me than the flow/contra flow explanation, because I really feel a greater connection/soul mate status with sx/sp types than any other type (especially sx/so and so/sp).


It doesn't go both ways. On the one hand, the Sp/Sx desire for walls and the Sx/Sp desire to tear them down can reach a balance and a compromise that is at least mostly comfortable for both. But there's another very big factor in play here:



StellarTwirl said:


> I previously identified with sx-dom, because I absolutely do NOT shy away from intense things, intense people, intense experiences. I just crave more and more.
> 
> But the traffic isn't balanced ... I take it all in while simultaneously limiting what I put out. It's not a constant expulsion with me, like it is for an sx ... more of a periodic spurting out from within.


The Sx/Sp puts out intense energy which the Sp/Sx loves to consume. This is for the most part a win-win for the Sp/Sx. For the Sx/Sp it is not, because they are being drained of energy while receiving less in return. Prolonged interactions between the two energize the Sp/Sx and wear out the Sx/Sp. As far as other types, Sp/So's and their inclusive and easygoing outlook in regards to other people are the type I feel the most camaraderie with, though their phobic yet walls-free approach to self preservation can seem puzzling at times.


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## sleeper

Bumblyjack said:


> The Sx/Sp puts out intense energy which the Sp/Sx loves to consume. This is for the most part a win-win for the Sp/Sx. For the Sx/Sp it is not, because they are being drained of energy while receiving less in return. Prolonged interactions between the two energize the Sp/Sx and wear out the Sx/Sp.


This accurately sums up what happened with three sp/sx friendships I had in the past (a 4, 6 and 9). I felt that my energy was working against me. By the end of our interactions, I had fed myself to them. They both grew more and more fond of me, but I felt exhausted, confused and alienated when I thought I should have felt good for being able to be myself. I mean they were innocent because they didn't realize what was taking place I suppose, but I wasn't getting much of anything in return. I also felt that they wanted to become me or take on aspects of me that they liked... suck my energy to enliven themselves, to make themselves real. I started holding back, afraid of sharing myself, but that didn't last as that doesn't lead to a fulfilling relationship either. They're now gone. This isn't how all my sp/sx relationships are or have been though.


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## sodden

Bumblyjack said:


> The Sx/Sp puts out intense energy which the Sp/Sx loves to consume. This is for the most part a win-win for the Sp/Sx. For the Sx/Sp it is not, because they are being drained of energy while receiving less in return. Prolonged interactions between the two energize the Sp/Sx and wear out the Sx/Sp. As far as other types, Sp/So's and their inclusive and easygoing outlook in regards to other people are the type I feel the most camaraderie with, though their phobic yet walls-free approach to self preservation can seem puzzling at times.


Hmm, this is something I'm going to have to think about. I don't feel like I 'consume' sx/sps, the sx/sps I know/have known it feels like I give a lot and they give a lot. (Maybe I'm wrong here, though.) Hmm. I don't feel like I get energy from them, necessarily. I put a lot into my close relationships. I can be extremely selfless and let go of 'what I should be doing' to keep the relationship going. Certain people have made me exhausted and I've had to end the relationship for my health, but I always thought that was a self-pres situation, because they were expecting too much, being vampirish. However, I don't mind clinginess provided I care about the person; I've been called clingy myself. I'm not exactly positive that I _do _build walls. Maybe I'm not a sp/sx.


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## Arrow

Bumblyjack said:


> The Sx/Sp puts out intense energy which the Sp/Sx loves to consume. This is for the most part a win-win for the Sp/Sx. For the Sx/Sp it is not, because they are being drained of energy while receiving less in return. Prolonged interactions between the two energize the Sp/Sx and wear out the Sx/Sp.


This is pretty much exactly what happens to me when I go to parties. I put a lot of myself into the party and making it the best it can possibly be by interacting with people and making sure others are having fun and doing things to make things greater and bigger, but at the end of the night I am exhausted. I know for me I talk to a lot of people I want to personally talk to and then if I don't find that spark of mutual interest I become bored and want to leave. It does feel like my energy dissipates early on if I don't find that mutual energy though, everyone else can be having a great time and I'm just walking around aimlessly searching for something to maintain my interest.


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## Bumblyjack

Arrow said:


> This is pretty much exactly what happens to me when I go to parties. I put a lot of myself into the party and making it the best it can possibly be by interacting with people and making sure others are having fun and doing things to make things greater and bigger, but at the end of the night I am exhausted. I know for me I talk to a lot of people I want to personally talk to and then if I don't find that spark of mutual interest I become bored and want to leave. It does feel like my energy dissipates early on if I don't find that mutual energy though, everyone else can be having a great time and I'm just walking around aimlessly searching for something to maintain my interest.


Yeah, Sx/So's might even get drained more quickly than Sx/Sp's due to their steadier energy. But you pointed out the big difference here: how you disengage. When you don't find that spark or when you are low on energy you want to leave. Sx/Sp's don't have this inclination, they want to squeeze every last drop out of it and this can lead to them running themselves ragged and out of energy.



brainheart said:


> I put a lot into my close relationships. I can be extremely selfless and let go of 'what I should be doing' to keep the relationship going. Certain people have made me exhausted and I've had to end the relationship for my health, but I always thought that was a self-pres situation, because they were expecting too much, being vampirish. However, I don't mind clinginess provided I care about the person; I've been called clingy myself. I'm not exactly positive that I _do _build walls. Maybe I'm not a sp/sx.


Walls are apparent in your post: "it feels like I give a lot and they give a lot", "I can be extremely selfless and let go of 'what I should be doing'", "I've had to end the relationship for my health", "they were expecting too much", "I don't mind clinginess provided I care about the person".

The term "walls" is a bit inaccurate because it implies that people don't pass through them. It's more like locked doors or bouncers standing outside of entrances with clipboards. Someone can pass through if they have a key or are on the list, but if someone who isn't allowed tries to you'll be well aware of it. The point is that it's conditional admittance where the person is denied entry unless they meet the conditions. With the Sx/Sp, it's unconditional admittance where anyone is allowed to enter unless there's a reason not to let them in.

You said, "I put a lot into my close relationships." I've never doubted this about any Sp/Sx for a second. I am saying two things though. The first is that it makes a huge difference how close the relationship is. The second is that Sp/Sx's rarely let go and give out their energy indiscriminately (Sx/Sp's do this most of the time), even in close relationships. They parcel it out where it is allotted, which can be in great amounts in close relationships, but they still watch what they're doing. Sx/Sp's keep driving until the car runs out of gas and they never even see it coming. (The other Sx-second type also parcels out their energy and merging but in a much different fashion. So/Sx's spread it out over several people and don't like it when any one person takes more than their allotted share.)




> Hmm, this is something I'm going to have to think about. I don't feel like I 'consume' sx/sps, the sx/sps I know/have known it feels like I give a lot and they give a lot. (Maybe I'm wrong here, though.) Hmm. I don't feel like I get energy from them, necessarily.


What I mean is that though both may enjoy the interaction, the end product is that afterwards the Sp/Sx feels either unchanged or energized and the Sx/Sp feels drained.



sleeper said:


> This accurately sums up what happened with three sp/sx friendships I had in the past (a 4, 6 and 9). I felt that my energy was working against me. By the end of our interactions, I had fed myself to them. They both grew more and more fond of me, but I felt exhausted, confused and alienated when I thought I should have felt good for being able to be myself. I mean they were innocent because they didn't realize what was taking place I suppose, but I wasn't getting much of anything in return. I also felt that they wanted to become me or take on aspects of me that they liked... suck my energy to enliven themselves, to make themselves real. I started holding back, afraid of sharing myself, but that didn't last as that doesn't lead to a fulfilling relationship either. They're now gone. This isn't how all my sp/sx relationships are or have been though.


I've also experienced both kinds of relationships with Sp/Sx's. I've noticed some trends in my own life, but I think they're due to other factors (such as being an ENFP). The biggest one is if the Sp/Sx is an extravert with strong Fe and Se. With ENFJ Sp/Sx's, when I provide an initial spark they reflect it back to me and it snowballs into an unstoppable dynamo of perpetual energy. This also happens with Sp/Sx ESTP's once they feel they have me figured out, but it takes awhile to get to that point. With ENFJ's, it's immediate.


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## Bumblyjack

#deleted due to double post#


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## sodden

@_Bumblyjack_, thanks for your well thought out response, I appreciate it. There is a lot for me to think about. A couple of things:



Bumblyjack said:


> The second is that Sp/Sx's rarely let go and give out their energy indiscriminately (Sx/Sp's do this most of the time), even in close relationships. They parcel it out where it is allotted, which can be in great amounts in close relationships, but they still watch what they're doing. Sx/Sp's keep driving until the car runs out of gas and they never even see it coming.


Ok, so here's the deal, and you wouldn't know this, but I used to drive the car until it ran out of gas regularly. I didn't really monitor at all. Then I had a total mental breakdown, almost lost my husband and kids, and my own life. At that point I really had to get shit together, so now I try to pay attention more (and I take medication). I don't want to ruin my kids and husband. I love them far too much. I've changed a lot in the last six years. I don't know how much this plays into things.



> What I mean is that though both may enjoy the interaction, the end product is that afterwards the Sp/Sx feels either unchanged or energized and the Sx/Sp feels drained.


So is this just between sx/sp and sp/sx, or will an sx/sp feel like this with everyone? Because why else does a sexual variant look outside themselves aside from the charge, I thought that was the deal, getting energy from connections, searching for something to precipitate completion? 

Another thing that I think throws me for a loop in my instinct typing is my tritype. I think the five head type really skews things and possibly makes me look more self-pres than I am. I'm thinking if I'm a 495 sp/sx I should be more reserved and inhibited. I have a very wild side and a sharp edge. I can be very energetic and assertive. But after lots of consideration the 495 definitely makes the most sense. Also, to make matters more confusing, I read all of that 16types instinct information and I definitely related to the sexual description the most, if I had to sit around talking about clothes and health for more than three minutes I would impale myself, but the sexual variant topics, that's the core of my existence. (But it's difficult to disentangle that from four as well.) 



> I'm talking about losing yourself so much in the merging that you lose your sense of self, even your convictions. Tell me you'd ever lose your convictions in a relationship or in a cause.


 This is from something you said to @_AceFace_ and I just read it. I have completely surrendered and lost myself for the sake of romantic love. I enthusiastically gave a lifetime desire/goal up for it, point in fact, and didn't find myself regretting it until seven years later. At that point I very much pushed him away and found someone else to surrender myself to. Is this something a sp/sx would do? (I'm just asking, is it?)

Not trying to derail the thread, I apologize if that's what I'm doing, I just wanted to respond.
@_sleeper_, I'd love your input if you get a chance.


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## kaleidoscope

@Bumblyjack

Are those your personal observations of the stackings? Because it seems a bit black and white - and more speculated than actually confirmed. Nowhere have I read that Sx/Sp's are more prone to not leaving when they get drained. Actually, because of the Sp being second, they're more likely to realize that at this point, they're going against what is comfortable for them. Sp coming second is more like emergency breaks when things become too much.

On the other hand, Sx/So's blind spot is Sp so they're the ones least likely to monitor themselves. That to me, makes more sense.


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## Bumblyjack

kaleidoscope said:


> Bumblyjack
> 
> Are those your personal observations of the stackings? Because it seems a bit black and white - and more speculated than actually confirmed. Nowhere have I read that Sx/Sp's are more prone to not leaving when they get drained. Actually, because of the Sp being second, they're more likely to realize that at this point, they're going against what is comfortable for them. Sp coming second is more like emergency breaks when things become too much.
> 
> On the other hand, Sx/So's blind spot is Sp so they're the ones least likely to monitor themselves. That to me, makes more sense.


- You've never read of the Sx/Sp push-and-pull where they become so ensnared by merging that the drain on them builds up to a boiling point and then they suddenly push away?

- What about of how an Sx/Sp's energy is strongly fixated but comes out in spurts while an Sx/So's is more constant but more widely dispersed?

- How about how Sx/So's do not exhibit this push-and-pull behavior but rather more smoothly and freely engage and disengage?

- What about how a chief purpose of the secondary instinct is to help achieve the fulfillment of the primary instinct?

- How about, more generally, that Instinct Variant Stackings are not merely hierarchies of relative instinctual strengths but distinct types with characteristic unconscious orientations toward the instincts?


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## Bumblyjack

brainheart said:


> So is this just between sx/sp and sp/sx, or will an sx/sp feel like this with everyone? Because why else does a sexual variant look outside themselves aside from the charge, I thought that was the deal, getting energy from connections, searching for something to precipitate completion?


I'll reply to this here in the thread and the other stuff in a PM.

Each relationship between types has its own dynamic with its own benefits, problems, concerns, rewards, and challenges. Sp/Sx's run the risk of being very draining to Sx/Sp's but also offer the potential of an intense connection. Conversely, Sx/Sp's offer intensity but may make Sp/Sx's feel uncomfortable. There's plenty of variation from one individual to the next, but most Sp/Sx's will offer greater intensity to and drain more energy from Sx/Sp's than say most So/Sp's would. The Sx/Sp-So/Sp relationship is more inert, generally. Mutual disinterest and possibly boredom are more likely here than intensity.

In answer to your question, no, an Sx/Sp will not feel like this with everyone. The biggest problem with the flip-flopped 1st & 2nd instinct pairings is that one's 2nd is the other's 1st. That secondary instinct is to some extent reserved for fulfilling the primary. If some is used for other means it might be okay, but overdoing this may cause distress.

This problem between types where one's 1st is the other's 2nd is observed in relationships between Sx/Sp's and So/Sx's, for example. Try getting close to one. It shouldn't be too difficult. Try talking to them on a friendly, personal level. Also, this should be quite comfortable and easy. Try really merging with them in a deep conversation about something relevant and pertinent. This should also go over well. Then try to do so with some off the wall, obscure topic. See how long you can keep it going before they become uninterested, then uncomfortable, then irritable, and then angry. Anything longer than a half an hour may be pushing it, because unconsciously they'll feel that you're monopolizing their secondary instinct and bleeding them dry. It's almost as if you were harming them, because they need that to go toward fulfilling their primary instinct.


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## kaleidoscope

Bumblyjack said:


> - You've never read of the Sx/Sp push-and-pull where they become so ensnared by merging that the drain on them builds up to a boiling point and then they suddenly push away?


That's what I was saying, because of this, they're *MORE* likely to leave than Sx/So's when they're drained. The Sp is there to keep them in check when things get too overwhelming and intense, whereas in Sx/So's, Sp is their blindspot so they're less attuned to when things become too much for them. 

You contradicted yourself when you said:



> When you don't find that spark or when you are low on energy you want to leave. Sx/Sp's don't have this inclination, they want to squeeze every last drop out of it and this can lead to them running themselves ragged and out of energy.


Would you care to explain that, without getting defensive/reactive?


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## n2freedom

This is a great thread topic and I have enjoyed reading it immensely.


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## wisdom

Very interesting for me too.

I think I'm sx first. I only want close relationships with a few people, focus on them (especially when trying to worm my way in), and ignore or push away most others unless they're potentially useful to me. I dislike clinginess because it distracts me from my "causes."

Different issue: what does sx/so do if he/she feels there's no way to be attractive to potential targets? Does early-life attractiveness influence instincts?


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## pinkrasputin

wisdom said:


> Different issue: what does sx/so do if he/she feels there's no way to be attractive to potential targets? Does early-life attractiveness influence instincts?


It doesn't matter. It's an energy. Physically, I was a late bloomer but I always had that energy and drive. I didn't have to work at it. It's there. It's my base line.

I don't think I've ever felt "not attractive" to potential targets.


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## wisdom

If someone is objectively ugly and knows it, 1) it will affect his/her "energy" and 2) whatever vibe the person gives off won't be enough to overcome the ugliness with many people and maybe none from the target market. Also, I suppose an introvert Sx first won't come across with as much energy as would the extraverted counterpart.


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## Arrow

wisdom said:


> Different issue: what does sx/so do if he/she feels there's no way to be attractive to potential targets?


My guess is that they would become what other people would deem to be attractive. They would probably seek some outside council in terms of the "art of picking up" or becoming skilled in learning ways to become attractive or at least feign some sort of attractiveness through personality or other things that attract people to them. 

Attraction isn't only physical. For instance I know that I am attractive but I am not only attracted to the person's exterior. I am attracted to a person's intelligence, their views on life, their experiences, their competency, their ability to do things and other things to that aspect. I'm looking for a person who challenges me and who can make things happen. I am looking for a strong, forward person who engages. It's very rare that I am attracted to someone merely based on looks with no insight into their person or their thoughts. Ultimately I am either turned on by a person and I am feeling with them and their energy in terms of chemistry or I am not and I am completely turned off. There is no halfway point for me usually in that regard. I can't fake being interested. 

I don't think of myself as being ugly in terms of not being able to attract someone. My view on attraction doesn't work that way. I think of my attraction as needing to find someone with a similar energy level to mine where they can jack into me or I can jack into them like a live-wire of electricity. Or like a signal in which someone can at least catch my frequency, someone who can see and understand me and get what I think or believe in. Someone who I am in sync with. 

I believe that I can find that person and when that person finds my energy they will notice me and we can have a great experience together. Again I don't think looks are too much a focus on this part but the chemistry and the chemical/emotional/physical understanding of another person. That's paramount, which is not likely to be found in facial or body features. It's very rare that I genuinely engage with a person deeply and then look at a person's physicality and think, absolutely not under any circumstances will I have anything to do with them. I think that might be what the energy comment is coming from. At least for me the energy, the connection, the spark, the chemistry is paramount and I simply need to find it. I already know it's out there and that it's rare I just need to find access to it. 



> Does early-life attractiveness influence instincts?


I don't think so. But I think as Bumblyjack has said a preoccupation about attractiveness may be variant based or at least more important to some variants over others.


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## wisdom

I don't see INFPs seeking ongoing formal guidance on how to come off as attractive....

Of course I think there's much more to attractiveness than physical qualities. I think sx first is rarely just about physical pleasure. Maybe sx first would enjoy seeing beauty, but do little more than look if substance isn't hinted at.


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## susurration

Bumblyjack said:


> Sx/Sp's also do things to be attractive, I guess: grooming, dressing nice, trying to be pleasant or flirtatious in conversation...but beyond that an Sx/Sp's attractiveness or lack thereof feels unalterable, unchangeable. It's a resigned approach: "I hope I'm attractive because there's not really anything I can do about it." There's a lot of potential for self consciousness or vanity. Those who feel attractive feel lucky (modest) or like there's something innately better about them (arrogant). Those who feel unattractive feel unlucky or even cursed. A whole lot of Sx/Sp's fluctuate among these.


I usually feel like if I would have to come across differently than I do, like 'overtly dress up' then that person would likee me for the image projected and not me, and I can't sit well with that. So I would rather let it all hang out, then spend 2 hours getting ready. I am not sx/sp but I definitely feel fatalistic in this arena. For better or worse. It is what it is, please take me for what I am. I've had people try and change me to suit them, and it didn't sit with me. It was less feeling controlled, and more not being taken for who I am. 



Arrow said:


> My guess is that they would become what other people would deem to be attractive. They would probably seek some outside council in terms of the "art of picking up" or becoming skilled in learning ways to become attractive or at least feign some sort of attractiveness through personality or other things that attract people to them.


I really can't imagine this, fascinating though. 



Bumblyjack said:


> Walls are apparent in your post: "it feels like I give a lot and they give a lot", "I can be extremely selfless and let go of 'what I should be doing'", "I've had to end the relationship for my health", "they were expecting too much", "I don't mind clinginess provided I care about the person".
> 
> With the Sx/Sp, it's unconditional admittance where anyone is allowed to enter unless there's a reason not to let them in.


I never feel like I give. It's there, take it. It hurts a fair bit when this doesn't happen, or the person criticises me for small things. I -am- open, until I can no longer be open. I'm like this with my dogs... I let them walk all over me, sit on my lap, be in my space. I like this.

It is devastating to hear what I am not doing and giving in a relationship. Not giving enough, not providing enough. This is really the only thing that can truly hurt me an I do shut down. Take stuff, do what you want, but don't tell me there is something I never gave enough of. It's not giving, it's not there to be given. It's there, for you to take at your whim and I trust you enough to dip into it. If you're going to fault me for giving, then you never knew me at all. I don't give. It's just there. 



Ice Ghost said:


> Glad I'm not the only person here who doesn't see clinginess as a character flaw.


Yeah, me either.


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## kaleidoscope

I can relate to aspects of both :frustrating: 



> Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.


But then,



> The Sx/Sp places their hopes for fulfillment of their primary instinct (and ultimately, their survival) in their personal qualities and attributes: attractiveness, charisma, skills, abilities, success, wealth, status, etc. When things don't work out, this can leave an Sx/Sp feeling self-conscious. This gives Sx/Sp's an aire of self absorption and, in some cases, fatalism.


But then,



> As a result, an Sx/Sp is going to be more all-or-none in relationships, either on out on the sand or drowning in the depths...possibly bouncing back-and-forth between the two with the tides. An Sx/So will be more balanced and stable in their relationships, preferring to wade in the shallows.


But then..



> Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom.


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## princessJAY

Fascinating conversation, but I wonder whether the _description _of sx/sp isn't a bit fatalistic? As in, anguish pouring fresh from recent wounds?

I am sx/sp, and concur that I present myself -- person, being, intellect, charm -- as bait, honey for the bees that inevitably come. It's true I make no real effort to draw people or aim energy as described; that seems like a lot of work. I am more focused on my inner truths, on maintaining calmness and being centered. Those who like me always seek me out, often to my surprise. Meanwhile, SP is stability & safety, and SO an arena I explore like a tentative child.

What @Bumblyjack said resonates, though, from a time when longing felt like a gaping wound. I was a starving woman waiting for the kettle to boil. The sorting process felt like slow death as one prospect after another trudged their way to "failure". Although, from the outside, others thought I was reveling in fun as I went on dates with multiple men every week, for months on end.

Well, SX is vitality and life blood if it _isn't out of control_. Sx/sp and sx/so may seek the juice in different ways, but can be junkies all the same. If we are really talking Enneagram, these are all ego-fixations & over-attention, and describe ways which we make ourselves miserable. How to lessen the pain of sx/sp? Lessen the desire for juice, find peace within ourselves, then gently go forth to explore the world.

There's a reason for that common phrase, love happens when you aren't (desperately) looking, just as water will inevitably boil. Just be ready with your ramen


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## Doll

I can also relate to both descriptions here, so I'm a little confused. I think it's also important to take into account how strong your secondary instinct is. My primary instinct is EXTREMELY strong. I find clinginess in my SO to be wonderful, transcendent, and universally energizing. It's the ultimate satisfaction. However, I HAVE to be connected to someone emotionally to find clinginess attractive. If it's someone I'm not bonded with, it disgusts me. I'm also able to be alone and single, so long as I have a "connection" to something that satisfies my SX instinct and urge to merge with something or someone. I find that SX is rarely about a significant other, or even about sex itself (although that is part of it). I'm so focused on the SX-dom in me that the secondary instinct seems to play little role. 

I feel like blind spots are more telling in narrowing down your stacking rather than trying to do a description based on two different instincts. Dominant instincts are usually obvious... and blind spots are obvious. It's that secondary instinct that's tricky. For example, when I'm stressed or in love or otherwise preoccupied by something, I begin to neglect sleep, food, bills - I'll tune it all out and sweep it under the rug as unimportant, trivial matters compared to the "real issues" at hand. I put those things last on my priority list.


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## The Wanderering ______

I'm having a hard time understanding if I'm an Sx/so or an Sx/sp, but I want to think I'm an sx/so. I'm really good at making new friends and talking to people in college and I have huge problems getting a job. I feel the sp instinct would care more about getting a job a financial security then I do. I care for these things, but it is not my main concern in life. I really want to be a free spirit, but it feels like the common demands of life (education, work experience) don't really allow this. You can't really make it anywhere in life nowadays without an education of some sort.


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## The Wanderering ______

I don't have a firm stance on this. I think I'm an sx/so, but I could be an sx/sp because I come really close to both of them on tests.

But there are some HUGE misconceptions about Sx/so. For whatever reason sx/so are supposed to be these huge ego Alpha male, type A persona ~ like people and that isn't true. This is probably more potential wise than less reality. I thing So/Sx would be more Type A personality especially since they have a better understanding of the social realm than the Former subtype.

Personally I consider myself to be an Sx/So because when I read the descriptions of So and Sp blindspot, they both hit home for me, but the So hit me in more of a delusional fear sort of way. Almost like what if I was socially isolated, and had a hard time talking to people. I may have not been the coolest person in high school, but I made friends pretty easy. Heck most of, if not almost all of the Popular girls in my grade knew who I was(and I didn't know all of them though). The Sp blindspot on the other hand was more of mental recognition especially when I red statements like "Loss of concern for financial security and development of practical skills". I care about these things, but its more of a basic level. I know I need to get a job, but I'm not overly concerned with getting one. Its more of when I have nothing to do getting a job is what I should do next.

So yea I consider myself to be an Sx/So because the So blindspot is what I fear the most and the Sp blindspot is what I relate to the most.


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## heavydirtysoul

I'd love to hear more thoughts. :happy: I've read the whole thread, yet I still can't decide between Sx/So and Sx/Sp.


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## kaleidoscope

I guess I'll have fun with dissecting this.



Bumblyjack said:


> *Note: These are relative comparisons and they are exaggerated for comparative clarity.*
> 
> 
> 1. Freedom
> Sx/Sp's believe in freedom. And they don't just believe in it as an abstract concept, but in reality. They don't want to be held down, confined, restricted, or contained. But then there's the problem of their siren, their drug, their love...an Sx/Sp would sell their soul to merge with their object of desire (be it a person, idea, or whatever). They will tirelessly fight off all other chains placed on them, but they will willingly don the handcuffs binding them to their love. The Sx/Sp ideal is to run away with their love and leave all the world behind.
> 
> Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.
> 
> *Could make sense, but I don't understand how the secondary instinct plays a part in this. If anything, the SP instinct is much more stereotypically associated with independence, privacy, introversion and the like. *
> 
> 2. Means to an End
> The Sx/Sp places their hopes for fulfillment of their primary instinct (and ultimately, their survival) in their personal qualities and attributes: attractiveness, charisma, skills, abilities, success, wealth, status, etc. When things don't work out, this can leave an Sx/Sp feeling self-conscious. This gives Sx/Sp's an aire of self absorption and, in some cases, fatalism.
> 
> *^ Status and success sounds more like a social instinct thing. Charisma and attractiveness is more of a sexual instinct concern, so I don't know how accurate this is. Perhaps wealth, possessions, luxury, and the like would be more accurate and can be used by the Sx/Sp to enhance attractiveness. Think.. Gatsby.*
> 
> *The self-consciousness when things don't work out is also easier to relate to for all image types. Which explains why 4s instinctively see themselves in this instinctual stacking. *
> 
> The Sx/So places these hopes in their cunning, cleverness, and ability to make the right choices and decisions. When things don't work out, an Sx/So may wonder what they could have done differently to have more success. This makes Sx/So's come off as enterprising masters of their own destiny.
> 
> *This sounds more assertive type than anything else.*
> 
> Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way.
> 
> *Focus on attractiveness, seduction, luring someone in is a sexual instinct thing, regardless of the secondary instinct. But I do agree that Sx/So is more active and go-getter, while Sx/Sp is more the type to sit back and let others come to them.*
> 
> 3. Romantic Relationships
> Both Sexual types exhibit a push-and-pull dynamic. The Sx/Sp's version of this is the classic iteration: intense, passionate desire suddenly becomes too intense and Sx/Sp pulls away to protect themselves, only to have the desire return again.
> 
> *Literally every withdrawn type is going to relate to this. Push-pull is also classic type 4.*
> 
> The Sx/So push-and-pull is an internal one: drawn in with some hesitation, drawn closer, maybe pull back a little, still drawn in. It doesn't look as extreme as the Sx/Sp dynamic because the Sx/So doesn't completely surrender to their desire.
> 
> As a result, an Sx/Sp is going to be more all-or-none in relationships, either on out on the sand or drowning in the depths...possibly bouncing back-and-forth between the two with the tides. An Sx/So will be more balanced and stable in their relationships, preferring to wade in the shallows.
> 
> *I think all-or-none is again, more of an SX thing than dependent on the secondary instinct. Both aren't exactly balanced, unless healthy. *
> 
> Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom. An Sx/Sp won't have a problem with this in itself (and may even like it); their greater concern is the desirability of their partner. Extreme closeness with a confident and secure partner is Sx/Sp heaven, with an insecure partner it's hell.*
> 
> Same observations as before. Bottom line is.. I think the SX/SO is more assertive type flavored, while the SX/SP description is easier to relate to for withdrawn/image types.*


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## Father of Dragons

kaleidoscope said:


> ^ Status and success sounds more like a social instinct thing. Charisma and attractiveness is more of a sexual instinct concern, so I don't know how accurate this is. Perhaps wealth, possessions, luxury, and the like would be more accurate and can be used by the Sx/Sp to enhance attractiveness. Think.. Gatsby.


I totally agree that gatsby is an sx/sp, but im just wondering how would instinctual theory explain his overall technique? I guess it could be something like: he leverages his sx/sp business competency and risk taking to gain wealth as a freebooter, then "buys" a false sense of SO popularity. I guess in a way its not really the social instinct at work because he isnt friends with any of his party guests at all...

Other than that, this thread is starting to make me lean towards sx/sp for myself. The concept i found most intriguing by the OP is that the dominant instinct spends the secondary. My sx/so friend is constantly "cashing" in his friendships to get set up on blind dates. Myself i more rely on being constantly well-dressed, in shape, well practiced in "charming" people so that when im lucky to happen upon a potential mate it will be a walk in the park.


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## kaleidoscope

thwoomp said:


> I totally agree that gatsby is an sx/sp, but im just wondering how would instinctual theory explain his overall technique? I guess it could be something like: he leverages his sx/sp business competency and risk taking to gain wealth as a freebooter, then "buys" a false sense of SO popularity. I guess in a way its not really the social instinct at work because he isnt friends with any of his party guests at all...


Remember that the secondary instinct serves the primary one. So Gatsby would be using SP things like his wealth, luxury, parties and possessions in the hopes of someday attracting Daisy. All of this is done, not for reputation or status since no one really knows anything about him, but to see Daisy again. It seems very much like SP being put at use to satisfy his SX. His clumsiness and cluelessness on the social level also points to SOC-last for me - of course it's not really blatant since he's still a 3w4.


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## Rafiki

@Bumblyjack

Love this, you're brilliant and you gave me my declarative proof of Sx/Sp over Sx/So


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## petite libellule

Yup. Sx/So here. Good post!


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## superbundle

kaleidoscope said:


> I can relate to aspects of both :frustrating:
> 
> 
> 
> But then,
> 
> 
> 
> But then,
> 
> 
> 
> But then..



I don't know too much about it, but I read somewhere that Sx/Sp can liven up their So/Sx shadow, I don't really know how that works. But I think this is what you're talking about, because I've experienced this.. But it comes out.. only occasionally, when I try to be "normal" in social settings. Which feels kind of weird.. but yeah. I wonder if this makes sense to anyone?


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## Kikyo

edit


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