# Incandescent Curiosity



## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

My husfriend (Word between husband and boyfriend) asked me to paste this for him. I oblige. 

Feel free to help him find his type!

He has difficulty verbalizing his thoughts, as he has to translate the images into words.* Thusly:

1. Study these two images here and here. Which one do you prefer and why? How would you describe it?*

This image fascinates me because it depicts the ocean, the origin of life. the source of so many puzzles, mysteries and events that are just waiting to be solved. The deep sea is the largest habitat on earth, a mysterious place with an underexplored realm inhabitated by a large-array of bizzare creatures. To me, the ocean is like a candyshop full of puzzles and mysteries that I want to taste, solve and understand.

In the picture I see the the shimmering ocean-water reflecting the sun, it's splashing movement against the silken coast, how the currents are interracting with each other, displaying the playfulness between the sun and the shadows which it creates to amuse itself. In the distance how the maritime forests are edging up against the jagged, silken coastline like emerald gems studding a royal tiara. 

And in the evening, how the sun retreats and slips back into the shimmering translucent sapphire waters, and how the surface of the ocean shatters the moon into a thousand pieces when it reveals itself.

*
2. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?*

I consider myself to be a very quiet, serious, introspective person who is very intrested in how everything works. From inanimate objects to people.

I often find myself, that when communicating with others, I don't take their words at face value. I prefer to pick apart the meaning of them to make logical sense out of their subjective thinking, and the objective context. I try to make logical sense out of both subjects as well as their possible implied meanings.

I possess a certain tendency to be overly rationalistic and to insist that material facts and logical proofs are the only genuine basis for opinions and beliefs. However, I oftentimes just like to sit back and let my imagination work its magic. I find it's very vivid, intense, fightening and beautiful all at once. 

To most people, I think, even to my SO, my life would appear dull. But on the inside, I assure you that it isn't dull at all. My way of thinking is like a... Kaleidoscope of never-ending surrealistic endeavors. 

Though my imagination ensures that my life is never boring, it can also turn it into something truly nightmarish. I am very paranoid, stuck in a pessimistic fog of distrust, cynicism, and contempt of the outside world. I consider nearly everything to be dangerous. My way of thinking can turn inanimate objects into something very much alive. 

People becoming monsters, bent on destruction. I could simply walk down the street and become so overcome by my imagination, displaying all the possibilities of something going wrong. 

An unexpected noise might happen, and it feels as if I am taking my last breath. 

You might call it paranoia. I am convinced that my overactive imagination plays a large role in it. As bad as it can be though, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I see beauty as something emergent, something that arises out of understanding, it could be a person, a mechanical contraption, anything. I see around me that most people believe that beauty should be directly received and revealed rather than something that would require you to put in a minimum amount of effort. To me, even the slightest of effort towards understanding something is rewarding.

When talking about my mind as a whole, when I indulge in my idle imaginings-- I'm easily snapped back into reality by anything that could be happening externally, visually and/or auditorily. For this reason, I see my mind as intricate and fragile, like a spider's web; the intricate pathways and connections are strong when a spider walks upon it, when its prey struggles to escape-- But, if touched by fire, it can instantly vanish.
*
3. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?*

I value honesty the most. I, myself, I will always be honest, and I will be blunt about it. I will not sugar-coat anything to spare anyone's feelings. Always precise, concise and to the point.

Improving myself. My mind and my body, if I don't get to progress in either I tend to become depressed and irritable.

Integrity of individuality, values and ethics.

Being authentic. I simply cannot stand falseness in myself, or anyone else.

I developed these values by observing the world around me, and taking note of everything that I thought was wrong with it. I don't think my values will change.

*4. What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else?*

I always seek improvement, whereas other people indulge and seem to continually decay as human beings. 
My mind is very different from how I see other people working. I see my mind in two parts: My conscious, and subconsious.

My conscious mind is the part of me that deals with logic. My subconscious deals with creation. 
The subconscious mind feeds my creative thinking, and carries out the program of my logical mind. 
I am perpetually in a state where I am convincing my logical mind to send the right information to my subconscious, so that it will more objectively visually represent what I am rationalizing.

I believe that my subconscious mind has the ability to achieve anything I want. And this part of my mind is capable of sustaining the impression that is fuelled by my creative-thinking.

With sustained focus, I can manifest it without question. 

Because of that, I think that the conscious part of my mind is there to delicately delay sustained thoughts and impressions of the world outside of me, sending it to my subconscious.

When an impression is made on my subsconsciousness, without me being aware of it, it will begin to work on that impression automatically. And, in awhile, these effects will become noticeable, and it will interfere the way that my conscious mind operates. 

If my present conscious self cannot accept what is going on, it's because it's reasoning against my subconscious, and it's sending conflicting impressions upon the subconscious, thereby causing each way of thinking to interfere with the other, resulting in an impasse. This is a state I will often find myself in.

I want to understand everything, see everything, solve everything, every mystery and every puzzle so much incomparably more than I will ever be able to. 

I refuse to accept what anyone is saying, but rather I have to see it for myself, I have understand it for myself. I have to find my own understanding of everything, not what other people think and know.

I will often draw upon many, many sources, and then come to my own conclusions about what I think is the most logical.

*5. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?*

In unpredictable, or social environments, even as I exude composure, calm, and groundedness, inside I can be frantic, fearful and helpless when it comes to what can happen next, because I have no control or influence over it. I always do my very best to look calm, unaffected, and confident. It is very important to me that I do not reveal any weakness.

*6. Please describe yourself when you are in an enjoyable situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.*

Well, I often times allow myself to be graced by music, my favorite composers being Dvorak, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov and Prokofiev. 

When I listen to my music, I am often reminded of how deeply I missed it, and how I just wish the session would never end. 

Even now, when not listening to it, I can recall the instruments and notes played... Closing my eyes, I can imagine myself stepping into a theater, watching an orchestra performing my favourite pieces. 

I am able to smell the pleasant musty aroma of the atmosphere without even having been there. I feel that when listening to classical, I am able to interract on a much deeper level of myself. I appreciate classical for its pure, and raw beauty.

*7. Describe your relationship to authority. How do you perceive authority? What does it mean to you, and how do you deal with it?*

I value personal freedom, I mostly intend to do the right thing, but my methods and thoughts tend to be different from the rest of society.

I generally resent taking orders, and I can be very selfish when it comes to pursuing my own goals, this leads to me not being able to work well others. 

I generally abide by the authorities for as long as it's convenient for me, I do however not feel beholden to any authority, if doing the right thing requires me going against the rules, then that is what I do.
*
8. Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?*

I prefer one on one as I prefer a more focused in depth discussion.

*9. Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speaks more than words?*

I observe that people often take their initial thoughts, emotional sensations or impulses at face value, and buy into these messages that their brains are feeding them. 

I think it's important to take time to process and analyze one's initial reactions to a new situation, to determine what makes sense, what is logical and objective before taking any kind of action.

I simply cannot stand people who take action, or base their decisions and opinions on what they feel. Thinking it must be true or correct simply because they feel that it is. Most people, I observe are too susceptible to irrational and illogical impulses, seeing situations from very personalized, distorted and inaccurate viewpoints. 

I prefer to step back, and analyze the situation before taking any part of action.


------
As an aside, he wanted me to add something I wrote in the ISTJ forums. It is here. 

*B(EH)OLD:*

He claims that he sees the consequences of many acts, many possible outcomes of a single event. And they can lead very far into the future.

And these can also connect to each other-- With many patterns and connections. And this way, he is able to plot 'the best plan'. This is not something that takes a lot of conscious effort, but simply comes to him, like a puzzle. A ripple effect of possibilities, like paths shooting off into more paths-- Offshoots.

He is able to 'connect the dots' to plot the best plan.

This is not something he does consciously, it's something that happens on its own. For this reason, he is caught up in thoughts and misses things around him (Although he seems far more aware and observant than me, of the world around him.)

He claims not to interact well with his environment-- He is highly dependent on 'distancing himself'. Throw him into a situation very suddenly, and he's completely lost because he is not distanced.

He says he's very good at preconceiving plans/events.

He says he's much better at seeing into the future than I am, that I bring a multitude of ideas and suggestions, but that they're not very well processed, so they tend to lead nowhere.

He thinks to me, it's like a guessing game, and sometimes I end up being right out of what looks like pure luck. He says it's because I don't 'filter' any of the possibilities, so I end up with a million ideas. Out of pure guesswork, I chance upon the solution he would have come to, but that it takes him longer.

He says I 'brute force' a path to the solution, trying things out, by being random and clumsy, by trying out all of the possibilities and ideas I come up with.

But, since he cannot come up with half of the possibilities I do, some of the time I end up getting there much faster than he. He says that our approaches are very different.

... Also, he seems to have purposely went with _9 _questions instead of 8, knowing perfectly well my obsession with symmetry and even numbers. He also just randomly chose questions from all of the questionnaires. :tongue:

As you can plainly see, he is awesome. :kitteh:


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## frayonka (Jan 3, 2013)

Awesome, and an INTJ. But maybe that means the same thing.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

frayonka said:


> Awesome, and an INTJ. But maybe that means the same thing.


Most definately Ni dom, i was tossing between INFJ and INTJ with all the Ni that was going on, but after reading more i do lean much more to INTJ


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Thank you! 

This was suspected. 

Any other takers?


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

I know that this is old, but I'm gonna bump it to get some deeper insight.

Particularly from: @arkigos and @ephemereality

We've identified his tritype as 614, but we've been all over the place with his cognitive functions. Hope you guys can help sort this out. :kitteh:


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> I know that this is old, but I'm gonna bump it to get some deeper insight.
> 
> Particularly from: @_arkigos_ and @_ephemereality_
> 
> We've identified his tritype as 614, but we've been all over the place with his cognitive functions. Hope you guys can help sort this out. :kitteh:


Well, despite what I think was a little TOO perfect answers, I nevertheless think INTJ is the clear type here. 

I don't think that INTJs are a pain in the ass to type, unless they are in the room. So willing to put the burden of logic outward ('prove it!') and so incredibly exacting as to what is truly resonant. Also, so much sensory variance - that sensory soup almost acts like what we imagine Ne might act like, never letting them decide on how to interpret observable phenomena until it 'clicks' deeply for them. Until then, it's a merry goose chase. 

I am getting ahead of myself. What is the trouble?


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

arkigos said:


> Well, despite what I think was a little TOO perfect answers, I nevertheless think INTJ is the clear type here.
> 
> I don't think that INTJs are a pain in the ass to type, unless they are in the room. So willing to put the burden of logic outward ('prove it!') and so incredibly exacting as to what is truly resonant. Also, so much sensory variance - that sensory soup almost acts like what we imagine Ne might act like, never letting them decide on how to interpret observable phenomena until it 'clicks' deeply for them. Until then, it's a merry goose chase.
> 
> I am getting ahead of myself. What is the trouble?


Well, we were able to discern Ni and Se for him, definitely, but in what order was the issue. ISTJ and INTJ is something I kept coming back to for him, and INFJ at the very beginning. ISTj(From socionics) was even a possibility, and seemed to be closest to him, but he would personally agree with INFJ and INTJ.

So INTJ is the clear type then?


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> Well, we were able to discern Ni and Se for him, definitely, but in what order was the issue. ISTJ and INTJ is something I kept coming back to for him, and INFJ at the very beginning. ISTj(From socionics) was even a possibility, and seemed to be closest to him, but he would personally agree with INFJ and INTJ.
> 
> So INTJ is the clear type then?


What sorts of things indicated ISTJ? 

Is ISTj ISTP? I can never remember.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

arkigos said:


> What sorts of things indicated ISTJ?
> 
> Is ISTj ISTP? I can never remember.


Yeah, ISTj is ISTP.

And ISTJ because he's traditional, orderly, seems to dislike change, etc. He also seems very duty-oriented, needing to have things done first before allowing himself (or others, ahem ME. :crying to relax, he hates people because he finds they don't measure up to his standards, not a single person. He thinks them to be self-indulgent, immoral and unethical, wants nothing to do with them. He has yet to find someone who shares his standards, living in isolation because of this. He wants people to do something _useful, _bring about positive change.

Of course, all of this behaviour isn't necessarily going to point to ISTJ, and could easily be INTJ as it's just that-- _External _behaviour...

I just felt that he was the _picture_ of an ISTJ. Or ISFJ, really. He's also philosophical and has a lot of depth, _extremely _intellectual, but I felt that it was coming from an ISxJ platform.

But, that's probably coming from a superficial, rudimentary standpoint on my end. I figured that inferior Ne made the most sense, but he swears that he uses Ni. It's just that he is so resistant to change and seems to hate it when possibilities are generated at him, overwhelming him. He says he needs to analyze them, one by one, and his problem is me because I have a 'gazillion' possibilities I throw at him that he doesn't get to process.

I also think that when he's extremely stressed, he has a tendency to see a billion worst-case scenarios. He lives in a cloud of cynicism and distrust though, so... He says he never takes anything at face value, seeing it from multiple angles, 'there is no true solution, no correct solution, that a correct solution is merely a matter of perspective.'

We have a mainly platonic relationship, because he has very little interest in the physical aspects. He says that he is with me due to my intelligence, and that he would be hard-pressed to find someone else who would rival how my mind works. He finds my mind to be curious and interesting. He also thinks that he'd be equally hard-pressed to find someone who is as decent as me, in 'this day and age'.


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## Pelopra (May 21, 2013)

i.... i kinda thought infj. but i can definitely see intj also. just some of his language and word choice felt very infj-ish to me..... 
i don't at all get an istj impression.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Pelopra said:


> i.... i kinda thought infj. but i can definitely see intj also. just some of his language and word choice felt very infj-ish to me.....
> i don't at all get an istj impression.


Yeah, I thought INFJ in the very beginning when first learning about typology, so I know where you're coming from. :kitteh:

His enneagram has been determined to be: sp/sx 1w9, 6w5, 4w5... 

I have my reservations. I'm not sure what to think at this point. I went from INFJ, to INTJ, to ISTJ, to ISFJ and back again. So there ya go.

He doesn't often display his creative side. He's usually far more practical and task-oriented, in the everyday.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> Yeah, I thought INFJ in the very beginning when first learning about typology, so I know where you're coming from. :kitteh:
> 
> His enneagram has been determined to be: sp/sx 1w9, 6w5, 4w5...
> 
> ...


I know an INTJ, and every time I see him he is in the kitchen making food, or cleaning the house. We are trying to convince him to do a cooking show or something... which is kinda funny. He is always taking care of stuff, while his ESFJ wife just chats and chats and chats and he rolls his eyes and picks up all the dishes and goes back into the kitchen. It's surreal now that I think about it. 

However, he is an INTJ, fo' reals.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

arkigos said:


> I know an INTJ, and every time I see him he is in the kitchen making food, or cleaning the house. We are trying to convince him to do a cooking show or something... which is kinda funny. He is always taking care of stuff, while his ESFJ wife just chats and chats and chats and he rolls his eyes and picks up all the dishes and goes back into the kitchen. It's surreal now that I think about it.
> 
> However, he is an INTJ, fo' reals.


Yes, my dear huz would make an excellent chef. If he didn't hate being around people so much. roud:


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

@arkigos: We've finally figured it out. He's an ISTP (ISTj in socionics.) :kitteh: He reluctantly agreed. I stumbled on the answer several weeks ago, but it's been a struggle since then. But, it's complete. Huzzah.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> @_arkigos_: We've finally figured it out. He's an ISTP (ISTj in socionics.) :kitteh: He reluctantly agreed. I stumbled on the answer several weeks ago, but it's been a struggle since then. But, it's complete. Huzzah.


Mind if I ask about the process here? Not a big deal but it's interesting. Notably, there was a time that I thought that INTJ example I gave above was an ISTP... convinced, in fact, but time proved that wrong. Given that, I'd like to see if I can learn something.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

arkigos said:


> Mind if I ask about the process here? Not a big deal but it's interesting. Notably, there was a time that I thought that INTJ example I gave above was an ISTP... convinced, in fact, but time proved that wrong. Given that, I'd like to see if I can learn something.


I thought you would be interested, which is why I mentioned you. :kitteh: I also thought I might be wrong, but I'm _fairly_ convinced at this point, because both of our tendencies, and our relations to each other, make a lot more sense... Which give more potential for growth.

I'm going to add that _he's_ not _entirely _convinced, yet I think it's sinking in, in a profound way. He had to admit that he looks at life as components, and how they all work, and how he can manipulate and change them. Ever since he was a child, he was fascinated by taking things apart in order to figure them out. He wouldn't play with his remote control cars and airplanes, much to the dismay of his mother, but he'd carefully disassemble them, lay them out accordingly, and decided he knew how it all then fit together, becoming disinterested. It applies to every corner of his life. He tries to find the truth in everything, and everything seems to come back to a strong Ti base. He is often criticizing me from a strong Se platform as well, and seems to regard my Ne with a degree of annoyance, yet some flavour of admiration. roud:

But, now for the process. How the conclusion was drawn:

I saw it as essential to eliminate bias by providing ample ambiguity. I don't think he liked this, initially, but grudgingly accepted it. We leaned heavily upon Socionics with the process, because it seems to have a more comprehensive, dynamic integration of functions. I asked some long winded questions relating to the different blocks, and it became clear that he was relying on functional data provided by MBTI. So, I spewed out the Socionic definitions of functions, and told him to rely on that, and we started again.

This process literally took _hours, _and was based entirely in writing. Instead of trying to isolate four functions, we were going to figure out _eight_, and I gave a question regarding each block, giving the characteristics of the proposed function. For each question, he would identify which function was strongest.

Immediately, and strongly, he associated the first block with Ti and the second with Se. He seemed to have a very difficult time placing ethical functions. But, he admitted his vulnerability was Ne, and he even wished on some level that he possessed it, yet found it grating at the same time (PoLR). Oddly enough, his Ni ended up in a space much farther down than he, or I, would have readily admitted at face value. This is because Ni is something he strongly _appreciates, _and _values, _but it is not necessarily a _strength_.

I found that when he was trying to come from a platform of Ni, there was something missing, and it seemed juvenile and odd, in the same way that he sees my Fe as being, when I'm ordering pizza on the phone. :tongue: 

It wasn't natural for him to do this, and I felt that even I could come from this space in a much more fluid manner-- But, I generally avoid it in favour of my own most comfortable and dominant function-- Ne.

So, when it came to the answers to the questions, not everything fit perfectly. I think it ended up being something like this: Ti, Se, Te, Ne, Ni, Si... Then we came back to Te, and he became confused, and didn't want to continue. He couldn't find where the ethical functions fit. So I decided to be my resourceful self and discern it based on the information I had available. Unless he was confusing Ti with Fi, I reasoned, ISFj was out. I had definitely posited it as a possibility, but it seemed he did not identify with it nearly as much as with ISTj.

So, then I compared ISTj blocks, to ENTp blocks. It became expediently apparent that _this _was the dynamic between us, though I would never have guessed it before the last two weeks, since I'm usually quite intimidated by his Se. When I was figuring my own enneagram out, he provided his insights, and I was extremely baffled by his apparent view of me as being far more dominant than I would have ever saw myself. 

So, based on the context of all of the information I had, on how we viewed each other, and interacted with each other... The interactions between ISTj and ENTp seem to be the areas of growth for us. By acknowledging our strengths and weaknesses and _knowing _our core desires and fears, it is _far _easier now to understand where we're both coming from, and apply strategies for more smooth relations between us.

Even though I don't place much stock in descriptions, this description _did_ seem to have him down flat, and after drawing this conclusion, he showed me some links dedicated to 'ISTP survival guides' :kitteh:

So, in conclusion, here's an image he identified with him being as a child. (I'd say he still does this to a certain extent, when he's putting computers together. He seems to have an avid interest in building computer systems.)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAAAABLE/7qO6oBoj_pY/s400/ISTP+poster3.jpg

And something to which he showed me, and he said, 'Yes.'
http://baboof.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/ISTP.35505234_std.jpg

And finally, a survival guide he provided for me:

Survival Guide for Non-ISTPs - Istp Wiki

I'd love some input, if you think anything is out of place. Yet, this _seems _to get at the heart of it.


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## The Deceptive Cadence (Jan 10, 2014)

Hello, I am the subject of conversation in this thread.

I find my SO's conclusion of my personality-type this early in the process to be a whimsical and intricately constructed piece of conceptual art, filled with trippy and distorted preconceived opinions.

To me, this experience is like taking a titillating journey through a dark, unexplored building, and as we enter the first section of the house, we're stumbling around, bumping into everything, but gradually as we are blindly exploring we learn where all the furniture is located. 

And then finally after a couple of hours we manage to find the lightswitch. As we turn it on and the entire room is illuminated, we are able to see where everything is. And it's completely different from where we -thought- everything was.

We move to the next section of the house, and repeat the process. 

So, as one room at a time is being illuminated, It's my thinking that tells me that it's still too premature to come to a final conclusion. These breakthroughs will eventually lead to a conclusion, or rather.. a culmination of insight that can't exist without the many days of stumbling around blindly in the dark that precede them. 

I think my SO thinks that she knows where all the furniture is, but she has yet to find the lightswitch.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

The Deceptive Cadence said:


> Hello, I am the subject of conversation in this thread.
> 
> I find my SO's conclusion of my personality-type this early in the process to be a whimsical and intricately constructed piece of conceptual art, filled with trippy and distorted preconceived opinions.
> 
> ...


Man alive, that is genuinely difficult for me to read. I am thinking, 'wait, what is the lightswitch again!?'. Then I read it again and I got it... and then I thought it was Ni. 

Anyway, it's natural and normal for an Ne (especially dom) to lead with a conceptually oriented perception. Some characterize this as throwing something out to see 'what sticks', but it's a necessary process and a desirable one. It is Ti that will do the job of internalizing the process and acting in a slow perfectionistic way. 

The real question here is where you two fit on the scale of being cognitive twins vs being highly 'complimentary' or alien to one another cognitively. I am getting an 'alien' vibe here, and that is my first reason for doubting an ISTP. Functionally:

NeTiFeSi
TiSeNiFe

...is actually quite similar. Not REALLY similar, but consider that you'd both be Ji and Pe in your consciousness, and that your judging function would be Ti in both cases. Both being Ti/Fe and both being Pe/Pi is a big deal and should make you more alike cognitively than you are different. I find that with STP types, I see myself in them very quickly. I think, "I think pretty much like that, though obviously with X instead of Y". There isn't a lot of difficulty in 'translation' when talkinga because mechanically we are identical, and only different in the arena in which our perceptions operate. That really more affects what we prioritize and utilize than how we think.

But, if you take ENTP and INTJ, it gets much more divergent:

NeTiFeSi
NiTeFiSe

...this is interesting in that it causes you to have the same orientation in terms of intuition and logic, but your brains will be alien to each other cognitively. It causes overlap in interests and priorities within those interests, but a wildly different approach to them.. and much more difficulty in 'translation'. 

Anyway, 'culmination of insight' and all that idea of welling up to a better comprehension stuff, it all sounds like Ni to me. I think we can forget Ne for this one. 

Also significant, we didn't hear anything about your logical process in this, @_Word Dispenser_. The RATIONAL logical process is going to be paramount to a Ti-dom. If you've really discussed this at such length, surely a subjective but thorough logical thread has developed, as it has for you? Ti is going to develop it's own complex internalized logical process, where Te(Ni) is just going to sort of humor your logic, and others, until they can get Ni to internalize some irrational comprehension. Ti going to take an informative role (as you have) and assume that to relate something, the subjective rational reasoning needs to be laid out (as I am doing now). Te will be more terse and blunt, and instead fall back on Pi to inform... usually, this will boil it down to the non-rational consideration of intuitive comprehension. Some vision that was had or was not had... and be perfectionistic about it (which explains the necessary stepping back from the 'final conclusion' which we Ne know there is no such thing). 

So, either I am being purposefully screwed with... which I would not remotely put passed an ISTP... or I remain unconvinced that we are dealing with a Ti-dom here.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

arkigos said:


> Man alive, that is genuinely difficult for me to read. I am thinking, 'wait, what is the lightswitch again!?'. Then I read it again and I got it... and then I thought it was Ni.
> 
> Anyway, it's natural and normal for an Ne (especially dom) to lead with a conceptually oriented perception. Some characterize this as throwing something out to see 'what sticks', but it's a necessary process and a desirable one. It is Ti that will do the job of internalizing the process and acting in a slow perfectionistic way.
> 
> ...


Thanks again. I agree with everything you've said, and this is the reason for the continual contention. I find that I understand your line of thinking and cognition in your posts, more than I do his.

I've been trying to figure him out type-psychologically-speaking, for the past two years.

He's _very _tricky to type for me, and I should know him best. I wouldn't put Ni-dominant behaviour past him, and it would make its own kind of sense. Ni is my ignoring function, so I tend to glaze over it anyway, and sometimes completely miss it. He just hasn't confirmed that he relates more to it in terms of the blocks, than, say, the ISTj. I get the impression he admits to it being _somewhat _relational.

It's honestly very difficult to see him as a perceiver, beyond a slight inclination towards relaxed attitudes (which don't seem natural to him.) -- He wants absolute truths, and decisions made. If one were to place an uncertain-truth upon him, and then at a later time, the mind is changed, he sees this as lying. He, himself, compulsively and even irrationally will hold to the premise that one _must _wait until the truth is absolute, before it is given as an explanation. The problem is, and we both agree to this (Last I checked), there are no true absolute truths. Everything is subject to change. Thus, he is continually holding back, and this is not necessarily something that he finds natural or comfortable. (Correct me if I'm wrong, @The Deceptive Cadence)

When we're speaking, we _seem _to be coming from the same logical platform. It makes sense... There is a clear subjectivity to it-- 'This is what I think, based upon my personal conclusions drawn from information, and I don't care what anyone else thinks, as long as it makes sense to me.'

But it's as if there's a wrench thrown into the gears, making it seem incomplete to me. There's a clear misunderstanding in communication at times, particularly when relating analogy, symbolism. I will throw out a random, general analogy, and he will _need _to toss that framework aside, and build a new one, which seems only marginally similar to the first, and this is more an effective way for him to understand the subject matter. Whereas, for me, my first explanation seemed more comprehensive, and complete, from _my _perspective. I end up somewhat irritated that the more logical analogy has been replaced with an 'incomplete one', if that makes any sense. I'm sure it's as complete to him, as my analogy is to me, however. And he has said that my analogy is too limiting (Which does seem to point to Ni.)

I don't get any 'humouring' from him. If anything-- It's almost as if _I'm_ doing the humouring (Though only when the subject matter becomes too serious), possibly irritating him. I think this can come across as mocking. (Maybe because this _is _Te, his creative function?)

I just get a very strong Se association to his attitudes-- Directing outwards, he has impeccable observational qualities, and scorns the lack of mine, if that makes any sense. He also _might _have inferior Fe flaring up when I fail to observe certain social protocol... 

Does this illustrate my logical process effectively? I can try to clarify if I've left anything out.

General thoughts?


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## The Deceptive Cadence (Jan 10, 2014)

@Word Dispenser,

I find your analogies/frameworks to be like prisons holding me within a world that is not open, flowing or free.

I feel like I need to throw away your restrictive and preconceived opinions in order to establish my own understanding.

If I don't erase the restrictive patterns you impose on me, my ideas will never come to fruition, they'll simply go around in the same old oscillating circles. This makes me feel as if I am living in an irresolvable nightmare.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

The Deceptive Cadence said:


> @_ephemereality_,
> 
> I would like to tell you a story, if you are willing to listen. A story that will trace my origin from the pre-existing and back to where I came from. I come from a little somewhat out of the way town who's cry is rarely heard in the media, though it might not exercise any influence in political complications, the people who live here, the people that I live with. Together we claim a certain admiration for our persevering honesty, and how we assert our independence from the rest of the country in order to protect the sanctity of our homes.
> 
> ...


I've known him long enough that I get this. roud:

It took awhile to decipher because it's very cloudy and layered up, but it's not really a story as much as it is a personal inner-transformation.

He starts as a whole-- A family of the self. Then, something traumatic occurs that severs him in two: The brothers. One represents his inner core (ethical, value-oriented, goodness). The second is what he projects outwards, and what he _seeks _outward. Knowledge, understanding, people-perception. He studied closely the people around him, from afar, as two selves.

Pride kept them separate, when they might have been joined, and this new state of being was coveted and protected as being essential. A need, better and higher than the 'air' surrounding. The 'air' represents that which is abundant in his environment, and from his perspective, that would be corruption. Ever-alert to protect himself from the 'air', he _submerged _in the water. Water being solitude. But, he could not remain submerged completely, and would have to 'settle' for damp earth-- Meaning that he remained in solitude even around others, hiding in the soil.

This upkeep of protection, covetedness, and pride, are the ultimate sacrifice of complete selfy-ness. All that remains is a shell of what he might have been, had he kept the family of whole self, instead of letting them sever into two parts-- The brothers. And, not only that, but refusing to allow them to reunite.

So, he slays the brother who he fears will corrupt him-- The outer. The other half. The fruit from the tree of knowledge.

His 'last words' is a feeble last attempt, before resigning himself to being a sole, fragment of shell, forever.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> I've known him long enough that I get this. roud:
> 
> It took awhile to decipher because it's very cloudy and layered up, but it's not really a story as much as it is a personal inner-transformation.
> 
> ...


I figured as much. In enneagram I'd put this 1, 2 and 6, based on this way of interpreting it. In particular though, it is image-oriented. 2w1 perhaps. As you know, the vice of 2 is actually pride.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> I figured as much. In enneagram I'd put this 1, 2 and 6, based on this way of interpreting it. In particular though, it is image-oriented. 2w1 perhaps. As you know, the vice of 2 is actually pride.


That's very interesting! When we were narrowing down his enneagram tritype, I knew 1 and 6 for _sure, _but he disagreed when I posited 2. I thought it seemed pretty dead on for him, though. Yet, he was inclined towards 4 over 2. 4w3, I think it was.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> That's very interesting! When we were narrowing down his enneagram tritype, I knew 1 and 6 for _sure, _but he disagreed when I posited 2. I thought it seemed pretty dead on for him, though. Yet, he was inclined towards 4 over 2. 4w3, I think it was.


I see a push-pull between 2-4. I see why he thinks 4, but I think a 4 would reason a bit other way around. No need to pretend. A 4 would put themselves out there in the first place, instead of dissociating what they think is the real self from the other world. That's something a 2 would do. That this outer self is seen as corrupting is why I lean 2w1 as well. While 4 has a connection to 1 too, I think it would appear a bit differently, more as a striving towards never compromising self. A 4 would seek unity or more precisely, equanimity.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> I see a push-pull between 2-4. I see why he thinks 4, but I think a 4 would reason a bit other way around. No need to pretend. A 4 would put themselves out there in the first place, instead of dissociating what they think is the real self from the other world. That's something a 2 would do. That this outer self is seen as corrupting is why I lean 2w1 as well. While 4 has a connection to 1 too, I think it would appear a bit differently, more as a striving towards never compromising self. A 4 would seek unity or more precisely, equanimity.


Mmkay... So, looking deeper into it, we're both considering Fi for him, over Fe.

He's just... _Not _merry.

I think we should really consider:

Serious Types: ESI (ISFj) SEE (ESFp) LIE (ENTj) ILI (INTp) EII (INFj) IEE (ENFp) LSE (ESTj) SLI (ISTp)

Because all along I had been thinking Fi and Te for him, he seems to display both of these in his cognition. But, I could be wrong. He claims that the way he thinks and feels come across very well in his posts across the forums.

Thoughts?
@arkigos, @ScarrDragon


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> Mmkay... So, looking deeper into it, we're both considering Fi for him, over Fe.
> 
> He's just... _Not _merry.
> 
> ...


Well, I personally don't see it. Ti doms can be very serious in how they appear, especially if they are too focused on Ti. Too logical, too categorical, for Fi dom. Imo.


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## The Deceptive Cadence (Jan 10, 2014)

My SO is still not satisfied with the results, so she prepared some questions for me to answer.

I would really like to see what you people might have to offer in terms of what you see in my answers. I had @ephemereality specifically in mind, but anyone's opinions are welcome. 

*How do you view optimistic idealists, and why? How do you view realistic pessimists, and why?*

Well, I would consider myself a realist, and in being realistic I understand that being entirely objective is close to impossible, because I see things through the narrow lens of my experiences and my environment, and I suppose I would be an optimist since I find consolation in that I have examined all the angles and perspectives available to me. I look at both the positives and the negative parts of an idea, and then I proceed to analyze them accordingly before mitigating them. I assess the situation from an objective viewpoint so that I can draw something positive from it.

But then again I might just be a pessimist who is trying to be optimistic.
*
What kinds of people do you admire?*

I don't admire people, I respect and appreciate certain traits that certain people possess.

*Honesty.*
This is the most important value, as it is my core-value from which all other values are derived. Lie to me, and you are robbing me off my ability to make a rational decision, it's likely I would make a decision that is different from the decision I would make had you told me the truth, hence you are robbing me of my freedom, my right. It is also why I will not lie to others. Regardless of the consequences, honesty must always come first, or atleast what I perceive to be truth at the time, based upon the knowledge that I possessed there and then. My disposition towards honesty is deeply entrenched into me, it goes all the way down, and into the core of who I am. It concerns every single aspect of me, my reasoning, my emotions and the reactions that result from them, my desires, perceptions, attitudes, interests, expectations. I wholeheartedly accept the entire range of considerations that follow.

*Authenticity*
People who speak and behave from the core of who they are. The kinds of people who have no agenda but to be who they -really- are, unhindered by their own egos. The kind of person who has learned to be free and natural. The kind of person who is comfortable with who they are, and who they have become. These are the kinds of people that I value and trust, because they are themselves. They are not hiding behind anything. It makes me, and I don't say this often, but it makes me sad when I see that people are so fearful of how others view them, when people allow themselves to be consumed by the energy that other people project, when they trap themselves within the expectations of others. When they put aside who they are, just so that they can fit in, just so that other people will appreciate them.

People so often lose themselves whilst in the presence of others, I understand the need for harmony, but not at the expense of one's own light being drowned out... being swept away by the current, completely unable to establish your own flow through life. I so very deeply wish that more people could possess the ability to create their own comprehensive understanding of life, and find their own meaning,, being able to resist what others feel and want from them, and instead transcend this enculturation that is forced unto them. It's like they don't have their own purpose of being. They are just a reflection of their environment.

Born into a world that is already programmed and scripted, their lives decided upon, and they're just playing their own part in a pre-existing social structure, remaining trapped in it their entire lives. I wish I could somehow empower these kinds of people so that they could wrench themselves free of the embrace of the collective, so that they can become free, and more self-actualizing, so that they can pursue their own meanings and values beyond themselves and their environments. Transcend what other people are, and instead focus on who they are, who they want to be. leave conformity behind, and instead move towards autonomy. Independency.

I can't conceive of a life where I am not constantly exploring, imagining, experimenting and redefining my purpose in life. My life -needs- a purpose beyond it's own propogation, and I will at every turn refuse to sacrifice who I am, just so that I can be accepted into the deluded consciousness of others.

*Integrity*
I respect the person who always does what he perceives to be the right thing to do regardless of how he might feel about it, or the difficult situation it might place him in. Following one's words and beliefs is important.If you don't, then I can't trust you, I can't expect you to keep your word. People who practice flexibility of values and morals, they tend to be lead down a path that makes them pay the price of losing these values alltogether. It is my opinion that every breach of one's integrity is the result of some form of self-delusion.

I say what I mean, and I take responsbility for the consequences of my actions, and I always resist the pressure that tends to arise in situations that question the coherence of my value system. I use a value system that I have created myself, one that is logically consistent. Without this system I fear that I would have no identify whatsoever, I would have no sense of who I am.. I would just be a product created by the whims and moods of my environment. I -will- remain loyal to my values and ideals. I have very clear priorities, within a very coherent system. A system that is equipped to deal with any kind of dissonance.

*Courage*
I strive to be brave enough to stand up for myself and what I believe in, and what I want despite of all the adversity blocking my path. I strive to have the strenght of will that will allow me to be who I am at all times. Not succumbing to any outside influence.

*Discipline*
I think that there is a lot of potential in humans, we have the potential to become something greater than we currently are. I -want- people to follow their dreams, I want them to strive for the potential that they have, I want them to cultivate discipline in order to get there. And I want them to invest as much time and commitment as it takes, to throw away momentary pleasures and conveniences.. Utilize discipline. Don't settle for the average, don't settle for what other people expect of you, instead.. keep pressing on to excellence long after everyone else has settled for the average. Discipline is the path that I take to reach my potential.

*Vision*
I admire dreamers, people who possess visions of the future, the kinds of people who bring about positive change, progression, advancement. The kinds of people who are capable of presenting us with groundbreaking innovative solutions to the problems that we face today.

Those are the five traits that I appreciate and admire the most.

*In 15 years: Where would you ideally like to see yourself? Where do you realistically see yourself?*

Well, I don't know. I don't really have any specific goal in mind. I'm just on a journey through life, and during this journey I find various meanings and purposes. Different experiences give me different perspectives.. different perspectives change my goals.. It's just a journey, man. But I do hope that I will have gathered more insight in 15 years, insight that helps me to understand the world around me, and it's inhabitants.

*What are you ashamed of, when it comes to your own capabilities, and why?*

I don't know if I feel ashamed about anything, but if I do.. then it's not coming to mind as I write this.

*In this scenario: You have tried to find a solution to a problem, and failed, many, many times. You have tried everything you could think of. Do you give up? Why, or why not? How do you proceed?*

I give up when my ambition to solve the problem is negatively influencing the other objectives I want to accomplish.

*In this scenario: You have found a solution to a problem, that works every single time. Then, suddenly, on only one occurrence, it doesn't work. Do you continue trying this solution, or do you find another? Why?*

I might try it one more time, just to make sure that I did not miss anything, if the same results are produced as a consequence, then it would be madness to keep trying the same solution. Instead I will make a mental list of all the ideas that pop up in regards to the problem, and then proceed to challenge each and every one of them. I approach the problem as if I am facing it for the first time, questioning everything, seeing the problem with a fresh perspective, and I take nothing for granted. 

In essence, leaving behind the patterns that I have established in the past, in order to take on fresh perspectives, and during this process I will continue to prod my mind into taking different turns, so that it doesn't get stuck in logical, and sequential thinking patterns. Instead I will randomly implement foreign elements, elements that will encourage me to take on even more alternative and unusual perspectives.


*When you have a goal in mind, are you more comfortable changing the way you reach the goal, or the goal itself? Why?*

I don't mind changing either one of those, but it would be naive to think that there is only one path towards a goal. The path infront of me, the first one, as I step unto it, will reveal a hundred more off-shooting paths that I can take, one path dividing into two, and then subdividing into more offshoots, hundreds of them.. And It is through learning which connections one should connect, that one learns about the goal itself. it's foolish to only look towards the horizon (the goal) and ignore the ground underneath our feet. People always seem to have a focus point, a goal where they can focus their minds on.. It's such a narrowminded way of seeing the world, and it ruins the journey. It is on the journey that we discover what the real goals are.

*Do you find that you tend to generalize certain people into groups, compare different groups, and distinguish traits based upon these groups? Or, do you find that you regard individuals first, and then their respective groups?*

You'd be pretty one dimensional in your way of thinking if you didn't generalize. I think a good way of thinking is that there are -individual- groups, and that there are individuals within those groups. But no, I don't just single out one individual and then claim that the entire group resembles that one individual. 


*Do you prefer being informal, or formal, in associating with others?*

I prefer a formal approach with a sense of purpose behind the meeting.

*How do you react when someone is being emotionally dramatic towards you?*

Well, I declare that I will not converse with them until they have calmed down and are capable of thinking before they speak, and if they persist in behaving in such a manner then I will make it very clear to them that I find their behaviour annoying, and that I will not be a part of it, or any similiar situation that might arise in the future. They usually take offense when I do, but that doesn't matter, not really. And then I will proceed to remove myself from the situation.

*When you are overseeing someone doing something which you have expertise in, do you find that when they are taking too much time to understand the problem, you will take over and show them? Or do you find that you will more likely talk them through it, and ask them why they wish to choose to do things in this particular way?*

Well, I will first attempt to deconstruct what it is they are trying to accomplish with their current approach, and understand where they are coming from, and what they have learned and understood so far.. and where they are trying to go. And then I will proceed to consider the knowledge they have, and the tools that they have at their disposal. I will then attempt to construct their perspective in my mind, so that I can better help them from that angle, an angle they will have a much easier time with understanding. And then offer perspectives that they can understand and relate to, perspectives that they might have come to on their own, perspectives that give them the insight they need in order to reach the goal ahead of them. Never giving the answer, just offering a little push in the right direction.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Bump.

So, that's more like it.
@arkigos @PaladinX @ephemereality @ScarrDragon @Helios

This is showing his cognition better.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> Bump.
> 
> So, that's more like it.
> @_arkigos_ @_PaladinX_ @_ephemereality_ @_ScarrDragon_ @_Helios_
> ...


What even is this thread? Lol.
I'll come back later with something.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Helios said:


> What even is this thread? Lol.
> I'll come back later with something.


Your name is pretty and easy to remember/mention. And I figure you're probably good at these things. :kitteh:


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

@_Word Dispenser_ and @_The Deceptive Cadence_

-Why settle with ISTP (LSI or whatever)?
-And how well does the Casual-Deterministic cognitive style capture the way you think? 

Going through the whole thing so far shows undertones of Ti hidden agenda and likely Ni base for what it's worth. I'll ask more questions later. INxJ in MBTI and IxI-Ni are likely.

Edit: Also the Causal-Deterministic cognitive style was not something I gathered from the way The Deceptive Cadence described his thinking. And obvious core 1 is obvious, and that earlier assessment of his tritype and instincts seems correct.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Helios said:


> @_Word Dispenser_ and @_The Deceptive Cadence_
> 
> -Why settle with ISTP (LSI or whatever)?
> -And how well does the Casual-Deterministic cognitive style capture the way you think?
> ...


Thanks muchly.

Well, that's the thing-- I don't think he's satisfied with ISTP, and nor am I, in truth... And therefore we've been looking into alternatives... In all honesty, _I _think that he is_ probably _some kind of Gamma, which he _strongly _identifies with, if that helps any. And the Socionics relations with the people he's closest to make sense if he _were, _in fact, ILI. roud:

He feels that he uses Ni strongest. But, that he _reasons _through Ti. Yet, he gets very taxed when he does this, but it's what he's been doing throughout his entire life. So _that's _the problem with reading him.

As for Causal-Deterministic-- You will have to wait for his assessment on that.


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## The Deceptive Cadence (Jan 10, 2014)

When at ease, my way of thinking is most like the Dialectical-Algorithmic Cognition, but when I get overly excited and I am attempting to actively problem-solve things, then I tend to lean into Vortical-Synergetic Cognition, but if I spend too much time in this state then I grow tired, but as a result it gets me there a lot faster than if I just lie back and allow my mind to go through things in a way that seems more natural to it.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

The Deceptive Cadence said:


> When at ease, my way of thinking is most like the Dialectical-Algorithmic Cognition, but when I get overly excited and I am attempting to actively problem-solve things, then I tend to lean into Vortical-Synergetic Cognition, but if I spend too much time in this state then I grow tired, but as a result it gets me there a lot faster than if I just lie back and allow my mind to go through things in a way that seems more natural to it.


Yeah, since I'm causal-determinist, we tend to clash because of it. Being 'removed from the laws of functioning life', and 'pointless, albeit impeccable logical reasoning,' is what seems glaringly obvious to him. I'm a lot more flexible with him, than he is with me. :wink:
@Helios


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## The Deceptive Cadence (Jan 10, 2014)

Much progress has been made. My recent contemplations have led me to a better understanding of my behaviour and of the cognitive processes that drive them. I have deciphered how the causations of various behaviours are interconnected with my inner life.

I took into effect a systematic approach, within a framework from which I could address the various problems of each type, and how they did not resonate with who or how I am, and how they could all be reductively explained. And with a lot of preliminaries eliminated, I decided to utilize a more positivistic approach, where I focused on the coherency between my cognitive processes. How conscious I am of them, and how conscious other people are of them in me, along with other various thought experiments.. I was able to draw up a number of systematic links, I was able to use these connections to analyze my cognition with what can be organized in a functional system. (Realistic types.).

And from there I imposed a structure that provided a more unified framework from which I could continue my theorizing, where various coherent facts and explanatory issues became more clear.. Much of what I discovered from the previous steps could easily be translated into this new framework without any significant losses.. And yes, it resulted in some very deep relationships between a few cognitive functions.

After touching on all the aspects of my cognition, I have accomplished what I set out to accomplish, I have landed on what appears to be the most logical conclusion: And it is INFJ.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

The Deceptive Cadence said:


> Much progress has been made. My recent contemplations have led me to a better understanding of my behaviour and of the cognitive processes that drive them. I have deciphered how the causations of various behaviours are interconnected with my inner life.
> 
> I took into effect a systematic approach, within a framework from which I could address the various problems of each type, and how they did not resonate with who or how I am, and how they could all be reductively explained. And with a lot of preliminaries eliminated, I decided to utilize a more positivistic approach, where I focused on the coherency between my cognitive processes. How conscious I am of them, and how conscious other people are of them in me, along with other various thought experiments.. I was able to draw up a number of systematic links, I was able to use these connections to analyze my cognition with what can be organized in a functional system. (Realistic types.).
> 
> ...


After all of the hard work, analytical thinking, brow-furrowing, and soul-searching-- We end up where I began. INFJ.

It made a lot of sense then, and it makes a lot of sense now. 

I couldn't deny you being a dynamic type. If I could, I'd say you were an ISFP.

Since I can't, INFJ is, indeed, the way you seem to make sense of the world, the internal processing, the comprehensive understanding through which you view through cognitive lenses.

My only qualm is what appears to be Fi to me. This abhorrent disgust of anything presented as fake. The sober, unresponsiveness to other's display of Fe. You are the one who taught me about Fi, before I even knew a name for it-- Which is why I strongly thought that you had Fi in you, over Ti.

Then again, you're also very sharply aware of social etiquette and appropriateness, to an almost frighteningly perceptive degree-- Something which I've always seen as over the top and unnecessary.

So, I can agree with and see an argument for INFJ for you, definitely. What I was seeing as Fi, perhaps was just Fe in the ego, presented as your strong ethical value system, and your belief in the way things should work. Your dislike when I conflict against it, and disagree with any well thought out ethical thoughts.

Your strong use of Se seems out of place, though. Maybe I'm seeing Fe, even there. Hmm.

I'm just very glad that you've resolved this and have finally come to your own conclusions, through self-understanding, and understanding of the typological systems. :kitteh:


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## VoodooDolls (Jul 30, 2013)

Word Dispenser said:


> After all of the hard work, analytical thinking, brow-furrowing, and soul-searching-- We end up where I began. INFJ.
> 
> It made a lot of sense then, and it makes a lot of sense now.
> 
> ...


 why you don't analize me that way, i'm feeling what they call jealousy


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

DonutsGalacticos said:


> why you don't analize me that way, i'm feeling what they call jealousy


Well, this is my huzfiend we're talking about. So, I have an intimate understanding of him.

Also... Do I know you? Name change? :kitteh:


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