# ISTJ That Appreciates Change?



## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

Niacin said:


> Can you elaborate on the possibility of me being a "damaged ENTJ"? I'm not sure I could call myself an extrovert. I am more active in a one-on-one interaction, unless I am very comfortable wtih all of the people in a group.


Introversion and extroversion isn't about being active in groups or in one-on-one but about functions order and preference - you seem to be gaining energy from your extrovertic functions (Fe and Se) and you get drained when your introvertic functions kick in (you are fine with Fe use until you start analysing your behaviour with Ti or get a Ni hunch). 

Also the fact you shown no sign of protest in the after-party question ("Yeah, I'd totally say to go.") shows extrovertic preference - introverts usually mention a problem in their answer, either complaining about sensory overload, being tired after the concert, needing time alone or not being in the mood for interaction even if they agree to go there in the end. 

Being more active in one-on-one or in well known groups can be simply a sign of anxiety - you extrovert when you feel safe to do so. 



Niacin said:


> This is very interesting to hear. I would also love to know what I could do to become healthy.


First step would be moving out from family home if you haven't already and looking for your own place in the world. That's what helped me. People change naturally after their leave their parents - there is even a theory you can only guess your real type till you start living on your own.


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

In that case, what makes ENTJ my type, and not ENFJ? Please explain this reasoning. Sorry that I repeated this question, but you didn't answer it.

In regards to your advice at the end, I always felt that way deep in my heart. Thanks


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

Niacin said:


> In that case, what makes ENTJ my type, and not ENFJ? Please explain this reasoning. Sorry that I repeated this question, but you didn't answer it.
> 
> In regards to your advice at the end, I always felt that way deep in my heart. Thanks


Oh. Sorry. Did I really say ENTJ?(checking) I meant ENFJ of course! It was a typo. Blame my poor Si on it.


> I would say* INFJ *(Ni Fe Ti Se) *or ENFJ*(Fe Ni Se Ti) with overdependance on lower functions (Ti and Se) but it's not clear. *Out of those two* a damaged ENTJ recovering from *Ti *grip seems a little more possible (you seem to be using Se as a relief function=tertiary and you mention hating your Ti tendencies that were apparent in you when younger).


Perhaps the "out of those two" made it confusing. Come to think - it was probably a copy from my mother language, Polish ("z tych dwóch" = literally "out of those two", figuratively "choosing from the two mentioned") although I was thinking I am using English idiom because I use that a lot. Or maybe it is English idiom too?(checking) Google says:
- And basically we took hay and crab apples and made barbecue sauce *out of those two* ingredients. 
-* Out of those two*, the correct answer would be "he is out of the office." 
- And Ain with her suburbs, and Juttah with her suburbs, and Beth-shemesh with her suburbs; nine cities *out of those two* tribes.
So at least some other people use that, although I admit it mostly shows in Polish-English dictionaries in my search but that could be because my location is Poland.
But even if its a copy it's still it's quite easy to tell I made a typo - ENTJs don't use *Ti *so can't exactly grip it.


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

I don't have a mastery in MBTI, and I was in a rush when reading your question. Please forgive me for giving you the benefit of the doubt. 

In regards to INFJ vs ENFJ, I know you explained that it's easier to see your type once you are out and about, but is there another way I could find out which one I most likely am? For example, do you believe that following speech patterns, or microexpressions are an objective way to tackle the problem?

To explain my answer to the party question: Recently I've been trying to fill gaps in my life with new experiences. My reason for going to the party isn't necessarily to socialize, but to simply feel good, have a drink if and when, try something new. This is a fairly new part of me that I have developed due to "aggressive coddling" throughout my life. Life is short, might as well do something even if it makes you uncomfortable. This is the xSTP within me.

To justify my introversion, I definitely tire at the end of the day, after socializing, especially after my clinical rotations. After putting myself entirely on hold for other people, be it patients, instructors, or the like, I need to escape the world. This actually becomes problematic for me because on the days I have clinical rotations, I cannot do any productive work afterwards. I equate this to needing to recharge and put myself back in place after what I experienced. Another evidence of my introversion is more simplified. I spend a day with a friend, and by the end, I usually become extremely tired and quiet. I need to separate myself from others after a few hours with them.

I know a lot of people on the internet glorify being an introvert over an extrovert, but this is not my case. It is not fun or productive to have to silence out those close to you because you are tired of talking or thinking. I wish I was as outspoken as an ENFJ. When first delving into MBTI, I told some MBTI enthusiasts that I was either ENFJ or INFJ, leaning on ENFJ because I thought I was extroverted prior to my MDD. I was then reassured by an ENFJ that I was not an ENFJ at all because I was far too obsessed over trying to figure out my personality type.

You also mention the Ti grip. Is this equvalent to the Ni-Ti loop? If so, that isn't a solid way to deciphering my type or my health, since this loop exists in both xNFJs.

TL;DR:
I'm unfortunately not an extrovert. It was a misunderstanding, which was warrented, since I behave oppositely to how I think (judging-interior, all smiles-exterior)

Would love to hear your response!


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

Well, it's outside of my competence - you are dealing with someone who can't decide if she herself is INTP or ENTP so you are expecting too much from me here. 

My life contains periods of time when I am extroverted (childhood all the way to early elementary, late middle school, high school, my 2nd college and the time after moving out from family house) and test as 7w8 in enneagram and introverted (late elementary and early middle school, my first college, unproductive time between colleges and unproductive time after 2nd college) when I test as 5w4. However I can quite clearly see my introverted periods happen after I experience enough bullying and make enough mistakes and fail enough social expectations so I am probably an extrovert in the end but can't be sure because I also get tired after interaction and have my "just leave me alone" periods. It also depends what kind of people and environments I am dealing with - I am mostly energized at school and when dealing with interesting people but I tire easily and get frustrated when I have to deal with my roommate, family or boring, shy people.

There is a chance you are just finding the "clinical rotations" tiring. I don't know what it is exactly because it is outside of my field of interests but I suppose you must deal with a lot of sick people and listen about their problems - that would tire ANYONE, maybe with the exception of a sadist or a psychopath. Fe people are especially prone to become drained from that because they take all the negative mood in. 
As for the friend - it depends what kind of friend I guess. If it's a friend with problems, a boring friend or someone toxic in any other way it's not surprising to be tired from exceed interaction with them.



Niacin said:


> To explain my answer to the party question: Recently I've been trying to fill gaps in my life with new experiences. My reason for going to the party isn't necessarily to socialize, but to simply feel good, have a drink if and when, try something new. This is a fairly new part of me that I have developed due to "aggressive coddling" throughout my life. Life is short, might as well do something even if it makes you uncomfortable. This is the xSTP within me.


You say it is a fairly new part of you and it still makes you kinda uncomfortable so it's probably not something you had the whole life. Tertiary function usually get developed and become useful as a "relief" function between ages 18-35 as part of the type development overtime.
Or something... as I said I have trouble deciding the I/E axis in myself too so while I did experience a Si boom at that time I still can't say if Si is my tertiary or inferior. All I can say is I was in my INTP mode back then.



> You also mention the Ti grip. Is this equvalent to the Ni-Ti loop? If so, that isn't a solid way to deciphering my type or my health, since this loop exists in both xNFJs.


I don't know much about Ni-Ti loops because I don't have Ni and find it quite difficult to imagine (Ni and Fi are the functions most difficult for me to gasp) but as I understand it it is a period of time when you become overly introverted, lock yourself in your head and ponder about a theory over and over again, without any human contact. Even if you socialize it becomes pulled into the loop and interpreted as the loop wishes. 

Ti grip on the other hand is pretty easy for me to imagine because I have Ti in my stack - Ti grip is merely thinking like an unhealthy, restricted, immature Ti dom. And you sort of mention that:


> My time at this convention was so infiltrated by *thoughts of cynicism*.* How could so many people be so conforming*? To kill two birds with one stone, killing my boredom, as well as the anxiety of* being surrounded by people I couldn't understand*, I was doodling during the entire length of my daily meetings.


 - this is how an immature Ti dom experiences social outings. And doodling sounds like tertiary Se use (as relief).

Grips are not aux-inf loops. They happen when both dominant and auxiliary function fail and the person needs to rely on the tertiary and inferior function. The function order gets reversed for a period of time - ENFJ turns into an unhealthy ISTP (thinking too much+dealing with the physical world), INFJ into unhealthy ESTP (impulsive behaviours in the outside world+some thinking). 

That's just the theory though - as I say I can't even decide my own type using the tips above.

How about considering yourself an "ambivert"? Difference between INFJ and ENFJ isn't that big. You can choose any of them - they both mean you prefer using Ni and Fe and you are less capable in Se and Ti, the only unknown is the order. 
That's what I did to calm my mind, although the question returns sometimes.


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

Awesome feedback thanks!

Now I am definitely not sure whether I am an introvert or an extrovert, as I have a similar past as you.
My Ni, be it primary or secondary, is telling me I am an introvert, so I'll stick to that. Every single MBTI test I've ever taken has labeled me as one, so maybe I'll let that test be useful in this regard.

Thank you for you help, and I hope you find out your true type! If I could be of help, although I'm not a master in cognitive functions, shoot me a message. My close friend is also an xNTP, so I might be able to discern you on your similarities or differences.


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

Niacin said:


> Thank you for you help, and I hope you find out your true type! If I could be of help, although I'm not a master in cognitive functions, shoot me a message. My close friend is also an xNTP, so I might be able to discern you on your similarities or differences.


Well, I was pretty sure I am INTP till I met a clear INTP which is just SLOW compared to me. 

I was always thinking Ne can't be my dominant functions because my brain doesn't work like "a hundred ideas a minute"(I often get a block after first few ideas, although the speed they appear is indeed around 100/min) but when I am with him the difference between Ne-Ti and Ti-Ne is apparent. 

For example we both like the game Dixit but I look at the cards and splurt my connections instantly and he stares at his cards, thinking, thinking, thinking before finally choosing. He is usually the last one placing his card and I am the first no matter who else is playing with us (usually 4-6 people is playing at once) but the connections we make are oddly similar - we always know which card the other one put out because the connection between the card and the call word is obvious to us - although others have problem guessing it.

He also tends to walk around with his nose in his phone, unaware of the outside world while I keep track of everything that's happening around and am usually the first one to mention anything unusual/interesting and generate ideas in a group. For example when teacher suddenly shown us a ball of wool and ordered us to stand up I instantly splurted: "We are going to play ball, pretending to be cats, making a spiderweb..." - and when the teacher suddenly threw the ball at me, keeping one end of the wool and saying "swan", without explaining the rules I instantly got what the game is about and splurted "snow" as soon as the ball touched my fingers, then looked at the teacher for confirmation it was really about that and threw the ball to another person, keeping one end of the wool and reapeating "snow" - it was indeed a game of "making a spiderweb", a spiderweb of connections, just like my brain is. 

Even if I am on my phone I still subcontiously scan the environment for any oddities. People are often surprising how much I hear and see because I tend to put my 3 cents in talks they were not aware I was listening to or suddenly going to a device they are struggling with since a few minutes just to fix within 2 seconds (moving one part of the mechanism to correct position, pushing one button) and return to my phone as if nothing happened. Well... the difference is I will be laughing about their stupidity and perhaps say "I am surprised too - it was the first time I dealt with the device but I simply looked at it and figured what to do. Am I a genius or what?" although I will keep that it to myself most of the time because many people would find that offensive.

I high school we had a test about having 3 words and finding one more word that has something to do with the other 3. I was the only one getting 100% score and I was the first one to return the filled test too. Generally I tend to need about 1/3 of designed time at pretty much any test and never got less than 60% even without studying at all (once I filled a test for a friend from a totally different major - I scored 70% using "common sense") because I figure out everything on spot. My brain is really fast(Ne), resourceful(Si) and accurate(Ti).


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

@Kiriae
Perhaps the person you deemed an INTP is not an INTP, or perhaps they may have some mental health issues that stand in the way. Aside from that, _you _do seem very much like an INTP.

Let me know if what the man on the right is saying here: 



and if you act or dress like this:




Also, do you like telling detailed stories? Or repeating phrases? If you do tell stories, is it usually only to one person, or to a group?


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

Niacin said:


> @Kiriae
> Perhaps the person you deemed an INTP is not an INTP, or perhaps they may have some mental health issues that stand in the way. Aside from that, _you _do seem very much like an INTP.


We are actually both are diagnosed with level 2 Aspergers but it shows differently. His problems are more social (he just doesn't get people - I believe he would definitely identify with "hating and not understanding people but caring about them anyway" part in video - while he doesn't seem to have huge sensory issues) and my are sensory based. I deal with socialization and body language and I understand people just fine although it's something I learned - but the world of senses is often too loud, too cold, too hot, too windy, too uncomfortable for me to function, itchy clothes and tight shoes are what I consider my personal hell, I can't wear them more than a few minutes. My hearing is also not that good or rather it's too good (others often put TV on 30/100, while for me 5/100 is enough, 20/100 makes me hear every actors breath, 30/100 is a little painful and at 40/100 I need to leave the room or put earplugs in) - while I do listen to what people say all the time I have problem recognizing words at times and subtitles in movies help me a big deal - it's frustrating and boring when I don't understand what people say as words and background sounds become one, losing their meaning. 



> Let me know if what the man on the right is saying here:


The body language of the guy in first video is very like me. I use a lot of gestures and my face is constantly changing. I am constantly moving, fidgeting. They actually assumed I had ADHD when I were a kid.
But I would never say I hate people (expect the time right after I get badly hurt by someone and start doubting humanity as result - for example today, when my flatmate went and criticized my method of house cleaning or rather lack of one, lol - I went to my room angry and told myself I don't want to deal with people anymore and wished I had enough money to live on my own). Or that I don't want someone to be my friend - you can never have too many friends as long as they don't try to get too close to you or are too needy. I like people and I always wanted to have friends although people didn't want to be friends with me. When I was a kid I used to come to random kids in the playground and say "Hi, want to play with me?". Adults found me adorable but kids didn't like that approach for some reason and were escaping/hiding behind their parents. I probably seemed like a kid ghost or a haunted doll from horrors to them, lol.



> and if you act or dress like this:


Red hoodie or red, checked blouse + jeans are my usual clothes.



> Also, do you like telling detailed stories? Or repeating phrases? If you do tell stories, is it usually only to one person, or to a group?


I do tell detailed stories sometimes and I think I like it. Back in middle school I used to bore my friends by describing in detail what I dreamt about last night - I also had a dream diary where a single dream could fill up to 10 pages. It doesn't really matter to me how many people are listening but it should be either 0 or 2+. I don't fancy one on one discussions. If it is supposed to be like this I prefer to just write the whole thing down and get it over with, preferably put it on the net for many people to read and comment if they feel like it. With one person the risk of awkward silence due to running out of ideas or going about one topic for too long is too big.
I wouldn't feel comfortable giving a lecture, being on a scene, making a video or something with a barrier between me and the listeners or a scheduled plan either.
I prefer to chat as an equal, not as a leader and I want people to feel free to interrupt me and change the topic or give their comments or questions as soon as possible (and I want to be able to do that too - I am usually considered the "2nd teacher" during lessons because I constantly interrupt the teacher and also answer questions of others students before the teacher does, lol). I prefer discussions to monologues. Other people speech and reactions is what fuels the generation my ideas. With just one person listening or a barrier between me and the listeners it can easily get uncomfortable.
I am at my best when there is a single person leading the discussion and I can dispute with them in front of many listeners that sometimes put their 3 cents in once the discussion starts getting dry.

I don't know what you mean by repeating phrases. If its about repeating the same sentence a few times it does happen - either by mistake (especially if I am using English, where the amount of idioms and sentences I know is still limited compared to Polish) or when people won't listen the first time (<people speaking, pause>, me: "You know there is a..."<people speaking, pause>, "You know there is a..." "<people speaking, pause>, "You know there is a..." "<people speaking, pause>, Me:"Well, whatever. Nevermind. I quess noone is interested."). I also do sometimes repeat what someone said to me ("Do you know where I put *my pen*?", "*Your pen*? Umm... I guess I saw it over there.") to but some time as I am thinking about the answer, especially if they catch me of guard and the question is unexpected. I also own an useful ability to record and replay last 5 seconds of any sounds I heard - in my head. It makes me pretty good at writing down what teacher says when needed - word by word (and the next word too actually - I have a talent for guessing what word comes next because each language has a limited amount of sentences and grammar rules - pretty much anything I hear or read I did hear or read in the past already, just in different context/situation).


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

@Kiriae
Of course, a mental health diagnosis is going to factor into your personlity type, as it can dictate how you percieve your environment. You and you friend may both be INTPs and be very different. From what I've read and researched, every personality type contains its own spectrum of possible people. Culture, family, environment, schooling all make us unique, even if we can be broadly placed into a basket of INTP or INTJ, etc.

You seem to relate well with the videos I sent, so I will bet my bottom dollar that you are an INTP. I suggest you submit a questionnaire&answers thread to the "What's my type?" subforum, if you are not satisfied with my answer. There are many great typers, such as yourself, who are interested in helping you find your type.


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

Niacin said:


> You seem to relate well with the videos I sent, so I will bet my bottom dollar that you are an INTP. I suggest you submit a questionnaire&answers thread to the "What's my type?" subforum, if you are not satisfied with my answer. There are many great typers, such as yourself, who are interested in helping you find your type.


I did. Many times. Not like it helps.


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

@Kiriae 
I know how you feel. I also feel pretty discouraged at the moment. It feels nice to have a solid answer, an all-encompassing truth. Sometimes the only answer is to move on...


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## SweetLogic (Feb 18, 2018)

@Niacin I really don't know why, but you strike me as an ISTP. ISTPs are non-conformists.

That said, ISTJs can welcome and embrace change. But they prefer to do this when the facts tell them it is necessary to. If something works, they will likely see no reason to change it.


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

@SweetLogic
Someone else also thought I may be an ISTP. My other threads might rule out the idea of me being ISTP though. Please feel free to check those out if you're interested. I'd love to know what you think after reading them!


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## HIX (Aug 20, 2018)

ISTJs aren't actually opposed to change as often as ISFJs and ESTJs usually are. It also makes sense that you grew up in a Russian household. Because Slavic countries tend to be filled with ISTJs and ISTPs. I think you're an ISTJ


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## Niacin (Aug 12, 2018)

@Hook
Thank you!
Everything always comes full circle, doesn't it? After reading all of the previous comments, which denied my initial typing as ISTJ, I was definitely confused, and trust me, I still am. I'm going on a hunt soon, for Jungs definitions of each type. Even if I can't settle with my own, I can at least understand deeper those around me.


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