# My answers to LeaT's questionnaire



## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

I basically wrote this stream of consciousness but I feel it panned out pretty well and representatively. Any follow-up questions are fine. Please voice them in a respectful manner. But yeah, any MBTI or Enneagram input would be helpful. Later y'all. Yeah, just tell me whatever is on your mind, though. No need to hold back. Also, don't be shy about contradicting other members. Shit, almost forgot. @Vergil 
_
1. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind._


_I'm 24 (birthday soon!), male and generally feeling positive about life. _


_2. Study these two images __here__ and __here__. Which one do you prefer and why? How would you describe it?_


_I preferred the first because I'm a sucker for natural beauty. The second seemed gaudy. _


_3. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?_


_Very genuine, abstract, artistic, intelligent, sometimes loquacious, fairly unadventurous and scholarly. _


_4. What kind of person would you LIKE to be? Why? What kind of person would you NOT want to be? Why?_


_I'm pretty happy with my intellectual and spiritual trajectory. I hope to continue advancing up the ladder of spiritual development. So, I would like to advance my awareness and help other people along. I wouldn't want to be phony or superficial or a corporate drone. _


_5. Do you think there are any differences to how you described yourself and how people actually perceive you? How do you think others would describe you? If there are any discrepancies between these two that are you are aware of; do you know why exactly that is?_


_Maybe. Other people may see me as a dilettante or overly zealous. In fact, I can be pretty reclusive and unconcerned with public opinion. I don't necessarily care how I come off as long as it doesn't impinge my freedom. _


_6. What in life do you find to be of importance? Why? If you are unsure you can always take the __Value Test__ and post the results here. Do note that it helps if you narrow it down to 20 or ideally 10 values as suggested at stage 2._


_Integrity, intelligence, health and happiness matter most to me. I also feel kindness is an undervalued asset in our results-driven society, or at least US society to international readers. _


_7. How do you react to new situations in your life? Can you describe an event in your life where you were in an unknown situation? How did you deal with it?_


_I often feel trepidation about severe outward change, such as moving across the country or cutting off all my hair or something. I have done both, but there's some fear beforehand. But often I just jump in and see change as a positive thing. So, I might spontaneously go on a date knowing that somewhere I will eventually find the other person and the experience gratifying. _


_8. Please describe yourself when you are in a stressful situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome._


_I withdraw; yeah, I know the implications with the enneagram to using that word. But, I will usually try to alter the dynamics somewhat and, if that fails or the other party is dogmatic, I will just throw up my hands and leave. There are times in which people don't want to listen, and I don't feel anyone is exempt from that rule. _


_9. Please describe yourself when you are in an enjoyable situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome._


_I just feel presence. I bring presence to the situation. So, that could be deep in the groove of creating music or reading a short story. The world just disappears and I become that experience. It's somewhat troubling to me that aside from sex I can't manufacture those intense connected feelings with other people at will. _


_10. Describe your relationship to socialization. How do you perceive one-on-one interaction? How do you perceive group interaction?_


_I prefer one on one interaction because I feel I am listened to more acutely in that environment. I view groups and mobs almost synonymously. In some respects, for example, nazism is facilitated by group think. The individual is forgotten and one asshole is able to steer general opinion. _


_11. Describe your relationship to society. What are the elements of it you hold important or unimportant (e.g. social norms, values, customs, traditions)? How do you see people as a whole?_


_Commercial society seems horrible shallow and spiritually depraved. I favor literary society but I can be a loner in general. I actually view society as Freud viewed civilization - a curb on instinctual drives which makes people unhappy. _


_12. Describe your relationship to authority. How do you perceive authority? What does it mean to you, and how do you deal with it?_


_It's mostly adversarial. I don't think authority knows what's best and one size fits all tends to pinch those who can't conform and who think for themselves. Oftentimes, though, I just dismiss authority and do my own thing. It's not worth extended thought or energy. _


_13. Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life? _


_I love chaos; I create all the order I need. Too many rules tends to hamper creativity and beauty and human ingenuity. I suppose I associate chaos with anxiety and order with harmony within and without. I repudiate the idea of cop-order or silly hierarchies of worth. _


_14. What is it that you fear in life? Why? How does this fear manifest to you both in how you think and how you act?_


_I fear getting old and not remembering where my car keys are. Why? Well, it seems like a universal fear but, more specifically, it wouldn't feel very good to be basically an invalid like that. I try to create a stable foundation to preclude, as far as possible, this fear. I don't find it that irrational either. _


_15. What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve? Why? Where do you think these drives and desires stem from or are inspired by?_


_Just being happy and intellectually, emotionally and spiritually awakened sounds good to me. It might be nice to share that joy with someone else later. I don't care much about material things. I do my work every day and then enjoy myself. That's maybe all a person can do. _


_16. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?_


_Getting really into something keeps me going. That could be a movie, piece of music or some writing. I like getting tranced. Oh, I get drained when people stop listening to me and just keep their tidy agenda intact to the detriment of change and positivity. _


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

For someone who says he loves to have people listen to him, you sure have been pretty terse here.  
I generally suck at MBTI, but I do know people who don't. 

@_Maybe_, @_Flatliner_, @_LeaT_

Please help..

As for your instincts, you seem sx first. But, I could be wrong..

I'll get back to you with more when I can.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> For someone who says he loves to have people listen to him, you sure have been pretty terse here.
> I generally suck at MBTI, but I do know people who don't.
> 
> @_Maybe_, @_Flatliner_, @_LeaT_
> ...


I have had people call me terse before. I'm not intentionally trying to be evasive. Is just seems distilling big ideas and parts of me into a short space is advisable and respectful to the reader. Like I said, I can answer any follow-up questions. I just don't like the idea of writing away to little avail...or writing something irrelevant and wasting everyone's time.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Vergil @unctuousbutler

I'm notoriously terrible at having any clue how to figure out a person's cognitive functions from their posts. Sometimes an intuition pops out at me or something stands out, but I really don't have a firm enough grasp on that system to think it through in a deep way and make all the necessary connections like I can with enneagram. @Flatliner and @LeaT are good at this though.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> @_Vergil_ @_unctuousbutler_
> 
> I'm notoriously terrible at having any clue how to figure out a person's cognitive functions from their posts. Sometimes an intuition pops out at me or something stands out, but I really don't have a firm enough grasp on that system to think it through in a deep way and make all the necessary connections like I can with enneagram. @_Flatliner_ and @_LeaT_ are good at this though.


I'm beginning to think I should have gone with an enneagram questionnaire. :laughing:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> I'm beginning to think I should have gone with an enneagram questionnaire. :laughing:


If you do I'm happy to give my thoughts. I will let it be known, however, that I don't think I can really determine someone's core from a questionnaire. However, it can't hurt to try. I look back at my own questionnaire and there are a lot of type 3 - looking things on the surface, but I think if I knew enneagram as well as I do now and I saw that questionnaire written by someone else I'd type them at 8. The truth of me is in there, but a lot of people looked at the surface stuff and saw 7 or 3, and even I thought I was a 5 or 3 until I read Naranjo & Maitri & excerpts from Palmer.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Naranjo & Maitri & excerpts from Palmer.


Interesting. Is any of that stuff online for free? Care to link, if possible?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Interesting. Is any of that stuff online for free? Care to link, if possible?


I usually just buy the books, and right now I'm highlighting the hell out of Naranjo's Character and Neurosis. I'm working on a write-up about my impressions of his Type 8 section. I'm going to do one for each type, but I figure I'll start with my own core followed by my own fixes, and take it from there. It'll take me a while though, unfortunately, because I'm writing a book too, so I don't have all the time in the world to do this very well and also get it done quickly.

Anyway, here are the links to the books I have on amazon:

This one deals with the deep underlying pathology and it's more advanced reading, but it's easily my favorite of the lot:
Character and Neurosis: An Integrative View: Claudio Naranjo MD: 9780895560667: Amazon.com: Books

This one deals with the more spiritual aspects, and it may be easier to see this in yourself:
The Enneagram of Passions and Virtues: Finding the Way Home: Sandra Maitri: 9781585427239: Amazon.com: Books

This one deals with what the types are - I don't remember it that well because I read it years ago and lent it out, so I can't check. =/ But it's a decent intro to what the basics are.
Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery: Don Richard Riso, Russ Hudson: 9780395798676: Amazon.com: Books

This is an online link with excerpts from Palmer:
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-different-enneagram-types-pay-attention.html

This is another online link I found helpful:
Typewatch Enneagram

And yet another, which is not so comprehensive but may orient you:
The Enneagram Blogspot: New to the Enneagram?

I don't know how to acquire Naranjo or Maitri for free. I bought the books, personally. Someone else might know, or you may be able to look that up and figure it out. A lot of people have typed up Naranjo's coverage of specific types in the stickies on this forum, so you might want to check the sub-forums for each type and see if it's typed up there. However I'd recommend reading the whole thing. Naranjo paints a really ugly picture for each type and doesn't spare anyone; so regardless of your type you're gonna hesitate to type yourself unless you see that the other types are also shit. =p


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I usually just buy the books, and right now I'm highlighting the hell out of Naranjo's Character and Neurosis. I'm working on a write-up about my impressions of his Type 8 section. I'm going to do one for each type, but I figure I'll start with my own core followed by my own fixes, and take it from there. It'll take me a while though, unfortunately, because I'm writing a book too, so I don't have all the time in the world to do this very well and also get it done quickly.
> 
> Anyway, here are the links to the books I have on amazon:
> 
> ...


Woah, thanks for all that. I hope your book goes well. Right now I am parsing the pay attention link.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

That's interesting that the three is made to seem like Ne (polyphasic attention) in the pay attention article. @Maybe


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

I guess that could be Te as well. Or Se haha.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Woah, thanks for all that. I hope your book goes well.


Thank you! =,)

Believe it or not, enneagram study has helped me tremendously with my writing (which is why I got into it in the first place though I admittedly got "sidetracked" by trying to understand *myself* - who knew I'd do such a thing?)



> Right now I am parsing the pay attention link.


That link actually taught me a lot. When I first read "How 8s pay attention" I thought I'm not an 8 because my thinking isn't black and white like that. My friend was with me when I read it and she sort of waited patiently for me to figure out how I related, and then she proceeded to point out how I had behaved that way just that very week. It's funny but I guess I'm just not in the habit of thinking or introspecting before I act. That's a big part of why self-typing was hard for me even though I think a lot and read a lot. I don't think *inwards.* I'd go so far as to say that certain enneagram types who are more 'doers' rather than 'thinkers' - even if they're smart - would have more trouble figuring out their core accurately than some of the more introspective types; but I suppose anyone can have trouble seeing themselves.




unctuousbutler said:


> That's interesting that the three is made to seem like Ne (polyphasic attention) in the pay attention article. @_Maybe_





unctuousbutler said:


> I guess that could be Te as well. Or Se haha.


This I don't know  I understand what you're saying but again, I hesitate to comment much about functions. I understand how they work within myself, but having seen how much I actually *didn't * know about enneagram, I'm hesitant to say much about functions without reading Jung and really looking into it. That's my 5-fix talking. Must collect knowledge! ;D


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> That link actually taught me a lot. When I first read "How 8s pay attention" I thought I'm not an 8 because my thinking isn't black and white like that. My friend was with me when I read it and she sort of waited patiently for me to figure out how I related, and then she proceeded to point out how I had behaved that way just that very week. It's funny but I guess I'm just not in the habit of thinking or introspecting before I act. That's a big part of why self-typing was hard for me even though I think a lot and read a lot. I don't think *inwards.* I'd go so far as to say that certain enneagram types who are more 'doers' rather than 'thinkers' - even if they're smart - would have more trouble figuring out their core accurately than some of the more introspective types; but I suppose anyone can have trouble seeing themselves.


What you're saying makes sense considering the gut center thing.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

I just took another test and came super close on 7 and 9. Again. >.< 

Both have issues I can really relate to. Maybe I am a sexual nine? 

OK, this idea is going to be out there, but hear me out. I had a spiritual awakening of sorts a few months ago. I talked about it somewhere on this forum. The point is I lived out the holy idea of nine, holy love. 

Has anyone else *lived out *the holy idea of their type? I read the Enneagram description a week later and it exactly explicated my experience. I was amazed. I even showed it to someone else, and they were blown away with the similarities between the descriptions. 

Anyway, maybe nine as core and seven as head fix?! I have tested 479 "the trickster" archetype before...and Vergil mentioned four.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> I just took another test and came super close on 7 and 9. Again. >.<
> 
> Both have issues I can really relate to. Maybe I am a sexual nine?
> 
> ...


Would you be willing to fill out the enneagram questionnaire? =)

I have lived out the holy idea of my type so to speak. Oh god.. I don't know where to begin on this one, and I have to go now, but I will explain when I have a minute, because my relationship with innocence is extreme.

It's to the point where I type up bits from my old diary entries, from before I studied enneagram {and they are poetry about a boy I consider innocent who brings me to my knees, or my lost innocence; and tons of lust & emptiness} people respond like: why are you typing up generic enneagram 8 terms? And I tell them no, it is not generic, I seriously had this experience before studying enneagram, and I continue to have it now, and it REALLY IS that simple.

One short example: I have always liked wearing white on stage when I sing my own originals - it represents my innocence. I've been doing music since I was a very little kid, so music and my relationship to it IS my innocence. When I'm unhealthy I don't wear white at all, and when I'm healthy, I wear white mostly only on stage or in a particular mood. I realize that's image-ish and I do have a strong 4w3 fix, so the expression of it is right there on my sleeve, but if you think about what I'm actually expressing it is a core 8 issue and a worship of innocence. It really is a HOLY idea to me.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Would you be willing to fill out the enneagram questionnaire? =)
> 
> I have lived out the holy idea of my type so to speak. Oh god.. I don't know where to begin on this one, and I have to go now, but I will explain when I have a minute, because my relationship with innocence is extreme.
> 
> ...


I kept calling mine holy too. That's how it felt. It removed me from myself and this reality. But yeah, I hear you, it really is that simple. I remember as a kid I was obsessed with love, then I became very nihilistic near 19, though. I'm not sure there was one thing that made reality seem drab. Then I came back to the condition of love. Still, I have some trepidation in accepting type nine. I can relate more to the general outline than the detailed experiences. I also hesitate to call myself egoless or that advanced. I actually feel quite secretive a la fives. There are whole swathes of my life that I can't talk about with other people. I'm definitely withdrawn, however, as I alluded to before. There are many elements of life and people that I would rather not interact and converse with for extended periods.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> One short example: I have always liked wearing white on stage when I sing my own originals - it represents my innocence. I've been doing music since I was a very little kid, so music and my relationship to it IS my innocence. When I'm unhealthy I don't wear white at all, and when I'm healthy, I wear white mostly only on stage or in a particular mood. I realize that's image-ish and I do have a strong 4w3 fix, so the expression of it is right there on my sleeve, but if you think about what I'm actually expressing it is a core 8 issue and a worship of innocence. It really is a HOLY idea to me.


That's beautiful. I would like to see you sing in white.


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

Here is my input @unctuousbutler



unctuousbutler said:


> _3. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?_
> 
> _*Very genuine*, *abstract*, artistic, intelligent, sometimes loquacious, fairly unadventurous and scholarly. _



Just to start, I am thinking you might be a N type... 




> _4. What kind of person would you LIKE to be? Why? What kind of person would you NOT want to be? Why?
> _
> _I'm pretty happy with my intellectual and spiritual trajectory. I hope to continue advancing up the ladder of spiritual development. So, I would like to advance my awareness and help other people along. *I wouldn't want to be phony or superficial or a corporate drone.* _



Some Fi?




> _5. Do you think there are any differences to how you described yourself and how people actually perceive you? How do you think others would describe you? If there are any discrepancies between these two that are you are aware of; do you know why exactly that is?
> _
> _Maybe. Other people may see me as a dilettante or overly zealous. In fact,* I can be pretty reclusive and unconcerned with public opinion*. *I don't necessarily care how I come off as long as it doesn't impinge my freedom.* _



You seem an introverted type. What you right here sounds like Fi, but it can also be Ti. 




> _6. What in life do you find to be of importance? Why? If you are unsure you can always take the __Value Test__ and post the results here. Do note that it helps if you narrow it down to 20 or ideally 10 values as suggested at stage 2._
> 
> _Integrity, intelligence, health and happiness matter most to me. *I also feel kindness is an undervalued asset* in our results-driven society, or at least US society to international readers. _



Ok, learning towards Fi




> _7. How do you react to new situations in your life? Can you describe an event in your life where you were in an unknown situation? How did you deal with it?_
> 
> _I often feel trepidation about severe outward change, such as moving across the country or cutting off all my hair or something. I have done both, but there's some fear beforehand. *But often I just jump in and see change as a positive thing.* *So, I might spontaneously go on a date knowing that somewhere I will eventually find the other person and the experience gratifying.* _



Ne




> _9. Please describe yourself when you are in an enjoyable situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.
> _
> _I just feel presence. I bring presence to the situation. *So, that could be deep in the groove of creating music or reading a short story.* The world just disappears and I become that experience. It's somewhat troubling to me that aside from sex I can't manufacture those intense connected feelings with other people at will. _



You seem to communicate with the world via Pe (Ne or Se) - so, you seem a P type. 




> _10. Describe your relationship to socialization. How do you perceive one-on-one interaction? How do you perceive group interaction?_
> 
> _I prefer one on one interaction because I feel I am listened to more acutely in that environment.* I view groups and mobs almost synonymously. In some respects, for example, nazism is facilitated by group think. The individual is forgotten and one asshole is able to steer general opinion.* _




Fi? Inferior Fe? 




> _11. Describe your relationship to society. What are the elements of it you hold important or unimportant (e.g. social norms, values, customs, traditions)? How do you see people as a whole?_
> 
> _*Commercial society seems horrible shallow and spiritually depraved. I favor literary society but I can be a loner in general.* I actually view society as Freud viewed civilization - a curb on instinctual drives which makes people unhappy. _



Inferior Fe? Fi?




> _12. Describe your relationship to authority. How do you perceive authority? What does it mean to you, and how do you deal with it?_
> 
> _It's mostly adversarial. I don't think authority knows what's best and one size fits all tends to pinch those who can't conform and who think for themselves. Oftentimes, though, *I just dismiss authority and do my own thing.* It's not worth extended thought or energy. _



If you have doubts towards your e-type, it seems to me that your core type is placed in the head triad, and learning towards 6w5 (with strong wing). You give the vibe of being 9 and 4(w5) or 3(w4) fixed - *but I am not entirely sure of it*.




> _13. Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life? _
> 
> _*I love chaos; I create all the order I need. Too many rules tends to hamper creativity and beauty and human ingenuity.* I suppose I associate chaos with anxiety and order with harmony within and without. _



Learning towards Ne




> _15. What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve? Why? Where do you think these drives and desires stem from or are inspired by?_
> 
> _Just being happy and intellectually, emotionally and spiritually awakened sounds good to me. It might be nice to share that joy with someone else later.* I don't care much about material things.* I do my work every day and then enjoy myself. That's maybe all a person can do. _


 N type




> _16. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?_
> 
> _*Getting really into something keeps me going. That could be a movie, piece of music or some writing. I like getting tranced. *Oh, I get drained when people stop listening to me and just keep their tidy agenda intact to the detriment of change and positivity. _


Seems Ne 

__________

Ok, I am going with INxP type, learning towards INTP. It's hard to tear Fi and Ti apart so all I can say is that:

1. Fi users are essentially driven by their subjective code of values (''_What do I like? What do I don't like? Am I being true to myself? Is this really me?...''_).

2. Ti users are essentially driven by their subjective analysis of truth (''_This is correct... this is wrong... This is right... this isn't..._''), and they watch it from a detached, non-emotional point of view - unlike a Fi user, Ti-users are comfortable dealing with logic and non-personal issues. 

Anyways, let us know your decision on your type :wink:


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Here is my input @_unctuousbutler_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. Looking at different profiles, and I have looked at all eight of the N ones, I very easily see myself as ENTP. Perhaps an introverted ENTP - that's not an oxymoron - or something else? Who can say? Also, I am very comfortable with Ti detached analysis. I believe, though, I am a lead perceiver.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm pretty sure I employ Fe over Fi as well. The love I have for humanity is universal (Fe) and I treat everyone equally. I see the president as no better than a janitor or fisherman. I want to aid everyone. Apropos Ti, I definitely come up with my own opinions and reason internally. Sometimes I have findings totally at variance with society's judgments. I don't come to these conclusions to be iconoclastic. These conclusions come to me.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Looking back at your post, I get why you thought not really caring about how I come off sounds Fi-ish. I'm not belligerent about expression like some Fi users, though. I just know what life is about and what fulfills me. 

I like your username. @Phoenix_Rebirth


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Thanks for the input.


You welcome :crazy:



> Looking at different profiles, and I have looked at all eight of the N ones, I very easily see myself as ENTP. Perhaps an introverted ENTP - that's not an oxymoron - or something else? Who can say? Also, I am very comfortable with Ti detached analysis. I believe, though, I am a lead perceiver.


Alright then. I agree with it. I am gonna quote what it seems as inferior Si in your OP:



> _Too many rules tends to hamper creativity and beauty and human ingenuity.
> 
> __I withdraw; yeah, I know the implications with the enneagram to using that word. But, I will usually try to alter the dynamics somewhat and, if that fails or the other party is dogmatic, I will just throw up my hands and leave. There are times in which people don't want to listen, and I don't feel anyone is exempt from that rule._



By the way, the following can also be a manifestation of Fe, so yeah I do agree that you prefer Fe usage to Fi:



> _Oh, I get drained when people stop listening to me and just keep their tidy agenda intact to the detriment of change and positivity._





unctuousbutler said:


> I like your username. @_Phoenix_Rebirth_


Thank you :kitteh:


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

Morning, UB.

okay, recalling the events of last night, I think when I pointed that you are not a 5, I suggested 4 because of the 5w4 you had put up. But after reading your answers here, I think I mentioned positive outlook triad- 2, 7, 9. A positive outlook triader who mistyped at 5 is almost always 9. 

I did not want to suggest 9, because...well, I typed two people recently at 9 and I said to myself - "the whole world can't be 9, you idiot. Be patient and wait for more info."

But more info, especially your little holy idea chat with Maybe, more or less pins you at 9. If you are also 4 fixed, as I think you are, you might be able to see how you are not really avoiding seeing your true self (as 9s supposedly do), but merely not letting the less than appealing self drag you down to feeling bad, like a 4 would. 

As for your JCF/MBTI, in all honesty, I don't think you are Pe (Ne/Se) or Ji (Ti/Fi). You are very likely Pi (Ni/Si) and only in a very highly unlikely event could you be Je (Te/Fe). 

I'm not saying that there can't be introverted ENTPs, because, I am one such ENTP. I've typed at INTP 5 ever since I started getting into this typology stuff. More people think I could be INxP than they think I could be Exxx. But that is beside the point. This is still very preliminary and I need more before I can be sure about most of my conclusions.

The thing that you have used to describe as an example of Ti, is definitely a subjective, introverted function, but I doubt it is T. It could be N. This is more or less my observation, but feelers tend to mistype as thinkers, but thinkers almost never mistype as feelers. This is only observation, nothing more. But this is where I will begin trying to understand you. 

1) Explain to me what about social norms bothers you and why.

2) Explain to me what you mean by "corporate drone." Why are they detestable to you?

3) Why do you hate it when people don't listen to you?

4) Why do you think/feel people should listen to you?

5) Give me an example of when you have been objective and impersonal. Contextual detail would be very helpful.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

have you cried lately?


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> have you cried lately?


I actually wish I cried more. Nowadays, I only cry about once a week over music.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> Morning, UB.


Likewise. Hope you slept well. I will get to your questions shortly.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> 1) Explain to me what about social norms bothers you and why.
> 
> 2) Explain to me what you mean by "corporate drone." Why are they detestable to you?
> 
> ...


1) The ideas of respectability and careers in general. Why do people need to do one thing? I don't understand. The things society values seem vapid as well. When did socialite become a job title? 

2) That someone could find fulfillment in such a mindless bureaucracy. That they would strive to get ahead and climb over people to do it. I find it subhuman. Cats or even fish have more sense. 

Also, the whole idea of "progress" is really the converse. I don't understand how destroying the ozone layer can be construed as progress. It's killing us. 

3) Because I am giving them solid information. Because I have probably been in the same place. 

4) Because I listen to others. It's not a double standard - I give and expect courtesy. 

5) I am almost always objective. Some people IRL make fun of me for viewing things so rationally. Whenever there's a crisis, I slow down and become super calm and rational, which can piss high Fe users off. :tongue:


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

unctuousbutler said:


> 1) The ideas of respectability and careers in general. Why do people need to do one thing? I don't understand. The things society values seem vapid as well. When did socialite become a job title?


What is the idea of respectability that you are referring to here? 
What are these vapid things that soceity seems to value? Give me examples and tell me why they are vapid.


> 2) That someone could find fulfillment in such a mindless bureaucracy. That they would strive to get ahead and climb over people to do it. I find it subhuman. Cats or even fish have more sense.


Are you generalizing all companies to be mindless bureaucracies with people doing nothing productive at all? Are you saying that their work, etc. is just a farce? 
If that is what you are saying, why do you believe what you believe? 
If that is not what you're saying, then please clarify what you meant. 


> Also, the whole idea of "progress" is really the converse. I don't understand how destroying the ozone layer can be construed as progress. It's killing us.


What is this "idea of progress" that, I assume, other people have but you don't? I am sure there is more to it than just noxious emissions.
What is your idea of progress? How would you achieve it? 


> 3) Because I am giving them solid information. Because I have probably been in the same place.


Okay, this is why I don't see much Ne in you. But, it could just be me and I could be horribly wrong. 

You say that you're are giving "solid information". This certainty is uncharacterisitc of Ne. Also, for INTPs, any certainty expressed with Ti will always have an exception clause which is born out of Ne. This is why, when people argue with xNTPs, they'll hear the INTPs say something like..."X is the same as Y, provided this is how we look at it," or, "you're saying ___ because this is the inherent assumption in your argument..." There are always clauses which are mostly "if-then" in nature. 

As with me, Ne-Ti, I am generally not certain. I see more and more when people try to box me into certainties. Always looking for loopholes, exceptions, possibilties. This speaks nothing of stubborness, however. I am very stubborn. 


> 4) Because I listen to others. It's not a double standard - I give and expect courtesy.


This is your 1 wing showing (if you are indeed a 9). xD 


> 5) I am almost always objective. Some people IRL make fun of me for viewing things so rationally. Whenever there's a crisis, I slow down and become super calm and rational, which can piss high Fe users off.


Again... much certainty here. Not exactly sure what to make of it. 

For some reason, I don't think you piss off high Fe specifically, I think it is just that you piss off people who don't hold an opinion similar to yours. Fe is stereotyped very badly. It's just sad to see how poorly Fe is depicted. Granted, I am not an Fe-dom and I don't always get along with Fe doms, but I doubt they're generally as bad, or, as stupid as some profiles tend to show. 

Regardless, give me a specific example of when you have been rational. The problem I'm facing when coming to conclusions about your type is this certainty. This certainty could really be accurate, or, it could just be your impression of you. I am unable to distinguish. But, either way, when you elaborate, I will be able to see why/how you have come to form these opinions about yourself and the world and that will tell me what type you are. 

...hopefully... xD


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> What is the idea of respectability that you are referring to here?
> What are these vapid things that soceity seems to value? Give me examples and tell me why they are vapid.
> 
> Are you generalizing all companies to be mindless bureaucracies with people doing nothing productive at all? Are you saying that their work, etc. is just a farce?
> ...


I appreciate the timely and thorough response, but I wonder about the value of these assumptions that you and I are operating under. Can't a type not in the positive outlook triad actually have a positive outlook? Why is it unfathomable that a healthy five could have a life-affirming view on certain things? At any rate, I look forward to your response and, if still desired, I can answer your questions later today. Thanks for the input thus far. Oh, I also wanted to say that I may appear more assertive or dogmatic here because of the Q & A format. IRL, I can be quite willy-nilly and open to many alternatives or explanations.


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

unctuousbutler said:


> I appreciate the timely and thorough response, but I wonder about the value of these assumptions that you and I are operating under. Can't a type not in the positive outlook triad actually have a positive outlook? Why is it unfathomable that a healthy five could have a life-affirming view on certain things? At any rate, I look forward to your response and, if still desired, I can answer your questions later today. Thanks for the input thus far. Oh, I also wanted to say that I may appear more assertive or dogmatic here because of the Q & A format. IRL, I can be quite willy-nilly and open to many alternatives or explanations.


First of all, positive triader is not the same as saying positive person. A lot of positive people (or, those who are considered positive) are not positive triaders. 


But, as a 5 fixer, and commenting from my experience I would say that 5s do not attach value judgement with their thoughts or outlook. It is what it is. Nothing more nothing less. Hence they do not feel the need to maintain a 'positive outlook,' a need to look at more pleasant things to bring in pleasant emotions into their immediate frame of mind. 

I can tell you why 1s are not positive triaders. We are realistic people. Optimism is very highly likely to lead to disappointment for us because we expect too much from reality. However, realism is not like that. Additionally, for the levels of frustration we deal with almost on a daily basis, it is very difficult to remain positive or optimistic. We end up being determined and goal oriented. Nothing positive/negative about it. 


Perfectionism is a heavy burden. 


Lastly, if you want your type found, you have to delve deeper than mere appearances. Also, we operate with questionnaires and the like because we can't observe you in real life. So, it is up to you to decide whether you want your type found, or, you're willing to enter a 4 letter combination that appeals to you.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> First of all, positive triader is not the same as saying positive person. A lot of positive people (or, those who are considered positive) are not positive triaders.
> 
> 
> *But, as a 5 fixer, and commenting from my experience I would say that 5s do not attach value judgement with their thoughts or outlook. It is what it is. Nothing more nothing less. Hence they do not feel the need to maintain a 'positive outlook,' a need to look at more pleasant things to bring in pleasant emotions into their immediate frame of mind. *
> ...


Maybe you and I disagree then. Someone like David Lynch is considered a 5w4 and, because of his spiritual development, he is now very focused on positivity. Also, my dad is 1w9 and congenitally positive.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> Lastly, if you want your type found, you have to delve deeper than mere appearances. Also, we operate with questionnaires and the like because we can't observe you in real life. *So, it is up to you to decide whether you want your type found, or, you're willing to enter a 4 letter combination that appeals to you.*


That's being an asshole. I'm sincerely putting forward what I feel is truth. My respect for you is dwindling.

See, you talk about ones being a certain way. Maybe you should look beyond appearances.


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

unctuousbutler said:


> That's being an asshole. I'm sincerely putting forward what I feel is truth. My respect for you is dwindling.


I am not the kind who would force my opinion on you, but I have told you what I thought. That post was sincere, but if it hurts your feelings, all I can say is 'sorry.'

Also, if you think I'm being an asshole, I'm pretty sure you will not appreciate Naranjo in the slightest. But I would still recommend you read up about Enneagram. Try reading from the book - Character and Neurosis (by Naranjo). It should help you find your enneagram, at least. This is a link to downloading the ebook, here.

As for your respect for me, if it is dipping, it is dipping. A lot of people don't respect me and a lot of people do respect me. I have no control over it and I rather like it this way.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> I am not the kind who would force my opinion on you, but I have told you what I thought. That post was sincere, but if it hurts your feelings, all I can say is 'sorry.'


The conclusions and implications seemed unjustified, indeed. My feelings aren't "hurt" but your proclamations have little evidence behind them. I'm surprised, actually, at how unproductive and tentative you have been throughout in spite of your early promise.


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

unctuousbutler said:


> The conclusions and implications seemed unjustified, indeed. My feelings aren't "hurt" but your proclamations have little evidence behind them. I'm surprised, actually, at how unproductive and tentative you have been throughout in spite of your early promise.


Thanks for at least acting on my suggestions though. At least you thought I could help you.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> Thanks for at least acting on my suggestions though. At least you thought I could help you.


I listened to you for awhile. Ultimately, you weren't saying much. I wasn't getting much return on investment for my time.


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

unctuousbutler said:


> I listened to you for awhile. Ultimately, you weren't saying much. I wasn't getting much return on investment for my time.


Well, if you consider only that which matches your own ideas and notions, and reject all else, of course my words would be useless. But, because this is such a counter-productive activity for you, how about we just end this conversation?


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> Well, if you consider only that which matches your own ideas and notions, and reject all else, of course my words would be useless. But, because this is such a counter-productive activity for you, how about we just end this conversation?


That's fine. The problem, though, is your lack of resolve and flimsy evidence.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Maybe you and I disagree then. Someone like David Lynch is considered a 5w4 and, because of his spiritual development, he is now very focused on positivity. Also, my dad is 1w9 and congenitally positive.


I think "positive outlook" in enneagram terms is a different thing from positivity as a person.

It's just that most 5s I know don't attribute positive value to positivity. (Nor do I, by the way.) I'll use myself as an example: I think honesty is preferable, even if a person is angry or crying. I don't mind a lot of complaining, even talk of death, or the dark side of things, because it is honest and utterly human. If I had to attach negative value to anything it would be anything that's intentionally manipulative. 

I think with positive outlook types, it's more about pushing down negative emotions or the things that they attribute negativity to are pushed down. I can try to explain this more in a bit, but for now, I'd still recommend filling out the questionnaire because that gets to the heart of things. =)


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

unctuousbutler said:


> That's fine. The problem, though, is your lack of resolve and flimsy evidence.


I already gave you my source on enneagram. You should read it before you call it flimsy evidence.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I think "positive outlook" in enneagram terms is a different thing from positivity as a person.
> 
> It's just that most 5s I know don't attribute positive value to positivity. (Nor do I, by the way.) I'll use myself as an example: I think honesty is preferable, even if a person is angry or crying. I don't mind a lot of complaining, even talk of death, or the dark side of things, because it is honest and utterly human. If I had to attach negative value to anything it would be anything that's intentionally manipulative.
> 
> *I think with positive outlook types, it's more about pushing down negative emotions or the things that they attribute negativity to are pushed down.* I can try to explain this more in a bit, but for now, I'd still recommend filling out the questionnaire because that gets to the heart of things. =)


I don't really do that. My type two mom does that.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

That's indeed what it is about, though. @Maybe


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> I don't really do that. My type two mom does that.


I wasn't commenting on whether you do it or not, just on the types. I haven't even read the questionnaire here because it was the MBTI one and it doesnt get to the heart of the enneagram related issues as well.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I wasn't commenting on whether you do it or not, just on the types. I haven't even read the questionnaire here because it was the MBTI one and it doesnt get to the heart of the enneagram related issues as well.


Maybe that was for Vergil, then.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

@_unctuousbutler_ -

I still think you're an ENFP or INFP, and you reek of type 7 from this exchange alone as well as other places I've read your stuff. I've seen you around on the forum - I looked at your original typing thread, I do believe, before you even got into it too far, and my impression of xNFP, let's say a likely ENFP, still hasn't changed.

Now the reason I'd give you a type 7 is that you're blatantly _narcissist_. I have met plenty of 7s I like, I enjoy our friendship and they tend to offer me mental challenge and sustenance, but your attitude in these exchanges looks disintegrative toward 1 - you are dismissive, you view other people as intellectually inferior to you, yourself as superior obviously, and hence your exchanges with them get stunted, whether into something like happened here with @_Vergil_, or what happens elsewhere as you snub people with what looks like fancy intellectualism but is really fluff. You're clever, you show a cunning use of intellect like the 7 is supposed to have, and you're clearly putting out the image of yourself as intellectual, though I'm not sure which heart fix it feeds (3, perhaps 4, you don't have 2). You could but don't display the 5's typical depth of approach, thinking that feeds a lust for understanding the truth or heart of a matter. You move _outward_ with your mentality.

You don't have the humility to realize you don't know about other people's lives or the properly objective outlook to gauge whether their intellect is worthy or not, generally or within a situation. So you don't display the maturity to judge a person's worth properly - despite the fact that they might have a lower IQ than you, they might also have more knowledge than you, access to more resources, worthwhile thinking that you haven't explored. Attempts to help you that are sincere get subverted by your attitude.

So there you have it. Type 7 ENFP. I'll give you a possible w6, counterphobic.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Flatliner said:


> @_unctuousbutler_ -
> 
> I still think you're an ENFP or INFP, and you reek of type 7 from this exchange alone as well as other places I've read your stuff. I've seen you around on the forum - I looked at your original typing thread, I do believe, before you even got into it too far, and my impression of xNFP, let's say a likely ENFP, still hasn't changed.
> 
> ...


Someone with a resolute opinion! Haha, behind the ad hominem of the center I almost detected an argument. For what it is worth, I feel Vergil's efforts started very sincerely then tailspun into self-righteousness, narrowness of scope (i.e., nine stuff vis-a-vis holy idea) and ridiculous certitude. I appreciate your glib assessment of my character, which contradicts what you claim to uphold (i.e., measured reasoning), but I have done plenty of private reading to decipher the issue myself. Nonetheless, your opinion is appreciated. Really. I wasn't being entirely snarky at the beginning. It's refreshing to witness some backbone.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Someone with a resolute opinion! Haha, behind the ad hominem of the center I almost detected an argument. For what it is worth, I feel Vergil's efforts started very sincerely then tailspun into self-righteousness, narrowness of scope (i.e., nine stuff vis-a-vis holy idea) and ridiculous certitude. I appreciate your glib assessment of my character, which contradicts what you claim to uphold (i.e., measured reasoning), but I have done plenty of private reading to decipher the issue myself. Nonetheless, your opinion is appreciated. Really. I wasn't being entirely snarky at the beginning. It's refreshing to witness some backbone.


I wasn't intending an ad hominem. I was trying to show you the picture of your type as you display it negatively, because types are essentially about the negative as well as the positive potential in people, and the negative is overall a stronger indicator of what your type is. The whole conflict with Vergil on this thread seems to be based on some little comment she injected into her typing that set off your Fi but may not even have been intended as hurtful, and it happened despite her being informative and reasonable up to that point - in the face of a comment it apparently no longer mattered, and that's when you revealed that all that she was doing was useless to you. I don't know why she contended with you in that regard, but I'd postulate it's because she's smack in the middle of the frustration triad.



Vergil said:


> Well, if you consider only that which matches your own ideas and notions, and reject all else, of course my words would be useless. But, because this is such a counter-productive activity for you, how about we just end this conversation?





unctuousbutler said:


> That's fine. The problem, though, is your lack of resolve and flimsy evidence.


That's about where I would've stopped if I were her, because her reaction was one of propriety and your reaction was to throw her to the wind like none of her efforts matter - but you are clearly trying to goad her with this one. Then..



Vergil said:


> I already gave you my source on enneagram. You should read it before you call it flimsy evidence.


That point is correct. You should experience a source for yourself before you dismiss it based on its second-hand followers. Naranjo's Character & Neurosis delves into the psychological backing for each type, in an attempt to cut to how it could manifest at its deeper, pathological levels - the worst potential of the type. If you don't want to face that in yourself it could be an argument for positive outlook, yet again - what positive outlook really means isn't sunshine disposition, it just means the will to ignorance of some part of yourself. At their worst, 2s ignore or put off their own needs in the service of others' to try to win their love, 7s ignore or put off the problems in their life with a disposition toward planning into the future, 9s ignore or put off their anger so they can maintain peace or comfort in their lives. 

Anyhow, your post here shows yet again how you fit back into my description. Let's take the second line:

"Haha, behind the ad hominem of the center I almost detected an argument."

You're presuming on my attitude. It seems you think you got me perfectly in this one post when your reading of it was only one possible interpretation, so you misread my intent and only 'almost' detected an argument. Speaking of 'glib'...reread your response, you're the one who glibly slides over my assessment and reaffirms your own tone, darting around any deeper response to the challenge.

"For what it is worth, I feel Vergil's efforts started very sincerely then tailspun into self-righteousness, narrowness of scope (i.e., nine stuff vis-a-vis holy idea) and ridiculous certitude."

Part of your characterization is coming from projection, because you are also being self-righteous (she couldn't possibly have seen your mind through text that you wrote, right?), narrow in scope (you disdain her because you perceive her as being narrow, how is that not narrow?), and ridiculous in your conception of yourself as certain (what person among us has all the information available? even humans aren't aware of parts of themselves, and no one person has all the thinking on Enneagram.)

"I appreciate your glib assessment of my character, which contradicts what you claim to uphold (i.e., measured reasoning)"

Where do I make that claim? All I claimed for myself was a lust for understanding the truth or heart of a matter. Having an objective outlook does not inherently mean that you are a measured reasoner, it means that you can view a person from a greater context than your own gripes with them. Look at what you said about Vergilius here, and your reaction toward her - in contrast, I've been critical of you, but I haven't directly called you something like self-righteous or narrow. I did call you narcissistic, but that's a pointer toward the type 7 sin; I did say a few things about the intellectual pattern I see from you, but that's again just an argument for your type.

"but I have done plenty of private reading to decipher the issue myself"

Then why'd you ask for opinions?

I see you're claiming type 5 underneath your name, I have no idea if this is serious or not - if it is, why do you think this is your type? What is your sin? What does it mean to you? How does it manifest in your life? I have what I've noticed of you on the forum to go by and not much more, so I could be missing something, but I'm pretty confident in my understanding of what I see.

"Nonetheless, your opinion is appreciated. Really. I wasn't being entirely snarky at the beginning. It's refreshing to witness some backbone."

Then give me a serious response, and let's get on with it.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Noticing narrowness is not necessarily narrowness - one can comment on an obvious deficiency in the environment. 

Are you having as much fun with this as I am? Perhaps not. @Flatliner 

I appreciate your amateur psychoanalyzing, though. Ask me some serious questions and I might respond seriously.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Take your time. @Flatliner


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Noticing narrowness is not necessarily narrowness - one can comment on an obvious deficiency in the environment.
> 
> Are you having as much fun with this as I am? Perhaps not. @_Flatliner_
> 
> I appreciate your amateur psychoanalyzing, though. Ask me some serious questions and I might respond seriously.


I see; there's no point. You're going to dismiss anything you don't perceive as being on your intellectual level, whatever godly level that is - and I'm not going to grope around to try to find a point of connection with you.

Good luck finding your equal here.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Flatliner said:


> I see; there's no point. You're going to dismiss anything you don't perceive as being on your intellectual level, whatever godly level that is - and I'm not going to grope around to try to find a point of connection with you.
> 
> Good luck finding your equal here.


All right, but I am willing to candidly answer reasonable questions. You really have misread me, brother.


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