# Istjs more attuned to people than istps...why?



## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

In my experience, Istjs seem more attuned to people, and to social graces, than Istps are. For example, an Istj would show interest in you by asking, "how are you? How's so and so coming along?" etc, when sometimes istps don't even remember or care to ask. Why is this? Is it because of istj's Fi, or their judging trait? Istps have inferior Fe but seem less attuned to people overall. Someone pls explain.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Te and Fe (J types) are kinda always slave to social rules and construct on some level, they work for society in one way or another. P types, not so much. They kinda do their thing and want others to do theirs. Inferior Fe struggles a lot with social grace. They feel like they can do and say whatever, whether it offends people or not, but then demand some validation in return. So needless to say that often rubs people the wrong way. 

I actually had this discussion with my ISTP buddy the other day. He always complains about how people are stupid and unreliable. I keep telling him that other people are who they are and they don't owe him anything. Unlike him I don't give a shit about other people and what they do, but my _''live and let live''_ mantra slides by better socially. Whereas with him it's always tug-o-war of engaging with people, expecting things in return and then going off on them when that doesn't happen. 

So in short, he's more_ ''socially aware'' _than me by virtue of being a Fe user, but I just smoothly bypass social bull whereas he completely jumps into it and often comes off as someone who's socially abrasive as a result.


Now that doesn't mean ISTJs are better, because when it comes to intuition, the scenario is pretty much flipped around. He feels like he can rationally tackle everything coming up the horizon, whereas I just flip the fuck out and start lashing out at the very thought of something unpredictable coming my way.


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## JennyJukes (Jun 29, 2012)

Stevester said:


> Te and Fe (J types) are kinda always slave to social rules and construct on some level, they work for society in one way or another. P types, not so much. They kinda do their thing and want others to do theirs. Inferior Fe struggles a lot with social grace. They feel like they can do and say whatever, whether it offends people or not, but then demand some validation in return. So needless to say that often rubs people the wrong way.
> 
> I actually had this discussion with my ISTP buddy the other day. He always complains about how people are stupid and unreliable. I keep telling him that other people are who they are and they don't owe him anything. Unlike him I don't give a shit about other people and what they do, but my _''live and let live''_ mantra slides by better socially. Whereas with him it's always tug-o-war of engaging with people, expecting things in return and then going off on them when that doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


All of this 

I also would have suggested Si as well as Si often comes across as reserved/polite. You'll see even ESTJ women ask about your home life and follow "social guidelines" for conversation. ESTJ men not as much but they have an upper hand to IxTPs with their Te-Si. I also notice ISTPs can come across much more brash than INTPs and I guess it's to do with their auxiliary functions. 

Outside of theory however, my ESTJ ex never asked how mine or anyone else's day was. He was an extreme narcissist however so his MBTI doesn't really count. On the other hand, my INTP is very attentive to me, asks me how I am and how my day was. He knows that it offloads stress and I reciprocate and listen to his stresses. His Fe is quite well developed and it's something I love about him. I couldn't be with someone who wasn't attentive towards my moods and daily life.

As I understand, your husband is an ISTP - what does he say when you've questioned why he doesn't ask? What about it bothers you? (Don't want to make any assumptions here so I'll leave it at that).


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

Zeri said:


> In my experience, Istjs seem more attuned to people, and to social graces, than Istps are. For example, an Istj would show interest in you by asking, "how are you? How's so and so coming along?" etc, when sometimes istps don't even remember or care to ask. Why is this? Is it because of istj's Fi, or their judging trait? Istps have inferior Fe but seem less attuned to people overall. Someone pls explain.


Is that your experience based on your husband vs your dad as you wrote before? Too small sample size. I am ISTJ i don't ask such things. 
I agree mostly with @Stevester, tough ISTJ isn't slave for social ettquette at all, more like workforce etiquette.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

Elwinz said:


> Is that your experience based on your husband vs your dad as you wrote before? Too small sample size. I am ISTJ i don't ask such things.
> I agree mostly with @Stevester, tough ISTJ isn't slave for social ettquette at all, more like workforce etiquette.


Thanks for your earlier post. Very interesting stuff to chew on. My istp husband sounds quite a bit like your friend, actually. 

Yes, my father is ISTJ and my husband, ISTP. They get along well, and I notice the differences sometimes in how they relate to each other and people around them as well. My father isn't affectionate at all, but can be quite easy-going and humorous.. He doesn't always engage in the sense of asking about my day, or work, etc - my mother (ESFJ) does that mostly. He's more reserved and likes to chat with my husband about politics, current events etc. I do notice that he engages more emotionally with my daughter (his granddaughter) though, in the sense of asking her questions about school, friends etc. It might be more of a 'grandparent' thing, though.. But overall, I think he does engage more in this way than my husband. I was reading somewhere that iStJs can develop their feeling side in mid-life. When I think back to school days though, when he picked us up from school - I recall him asking us how our day went etc. , at the very least. Istp husband barely asks these things. 

So as an ISTJ, you don't ask persons how their day was etc? It seems that most ISTJs I've met have been polite. Maybe it's the social graces aspect, as you said before....


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

JennyJukes said:


> All of this
> 
> I also would have suggested Si as well as Si often comes across as reserved/polite. You'll see even ESTJ women ask about your home life and follow "social guidelines" for conversation. ESTJ men not as much but they have an upper hand to IxTPs with their Te-Si. I also notice ISTPs can come across much more brash than INTPs and I guess it's to do with their auxiliary functions.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts. That's good that your INTP has such developed Fe. How did he develop it? I think Intps and Istps both have inferior Fe? I think it's important to us ISFJS to have someone who checks in with us emotionally, like you said. It does bother me...yes. I've spoken to him about it before and he says it's not that he doesn't care.... but sometimes it just doesnt' really occur to him to ask. Being a FE user - I find it difficult to understand, but then I also realize that it probably comes from his undeveloped Fe. I've told him it makes me feel like it's not interested in my day, or my experiences... and that I try to show interest in his activities, but that I feel like he doesn't show interest in my own. It's the same thing with our daughter - she would come home from school or practices and he would hardly ever ask her 'How was your day?" or "how was your practice"? I don't even think he knows the name of her school teacher because he barely asks her about school! I just find that unacceptable. To me, it's important to show interest in the experiences of those around you and to build a bridge of communication where the other person (daughter or me) can share about what's going on with us. When he doesn't ask, I feel like he doesn't care and I keep everything inside... which makes me feel lonely when it comes to things that are happening with me. I mentioned this in a thread sometime ago and the suggestion was to still share with him about my day etc, which I do try to do sometimes, but I do wish he would make the effort to show interest by making the effort to ask, too. He does try sometimes, to his credit, but sometimes i feel I would rather he had more Fe.... it would just be easier in terms of connecting overall. AT least, for me as an Isfj. 

He also hates talking about feelings. Do you have that issue with your INTP?


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## Tyche (May 12, 2011)

I wouldn't say it naturally occurs to me to ask people about their day. Rather, it becomes apparent through life that people prefer a "soft opening" than delving right into whatever it is I'm there to talk about. I'm more comfortable talking about whatever it is I want to talk about, but asking people how they are aids in bonding. And it's not really that I don't care how other people are doing, but often I go up to people because I have something I need to address so I'm really there to accomplish something. This is all about work, though.

In personal situations it's similar, though I'll address the personal stuff more because that's what relationships are built on.


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## Northern Lights (Mar 25, 2016)

Zeri said:


> I've spoken to him about it before and he says it's not that he doesn't care.... but sometimes it just doesnt' really occur to him to ask. Being a FE user - I find it difficult to understand, but then I also realize that it probably comes from his undeveloped Fe.


The reason is that we see the world and judge it with ourselves as the standard. So in this particular case, he does not expect people to ask him about his day because it's not important information in a factual sense -- and if it was important information, he'd share it, unprompted -- so in turn, it does not occur to him that _others_ might expect to be asked.

This is our fundamental limitation. Inter-personal things that aren't true for ourselves we have problems accounting for, and the younger he is, the worse it is. Lacking other options, we have to consciously learn to do it in every individual case, and that's naturally slow and inefficient. Don't expect this to change much or quickly. With age does come wisdom, but you have to get there first. If you can't accept this as a blind spot he has now, which is made up for by other qualities, eventually the relationship is in real danger of breaking down. Just as a heads-up.


As an aside, I couldn't make sense out of your post @Stevester. I was with you until "They kinda do their thing and want others to do theirs.", which is just another way of saying "live and let live", the fundamental ISTP way. You seem to contradict this in your middle part? Everyone is free to do whatever they want, and while I naturally judge everything all the time according to my personal standard (which might lead to "people are stupid and unreliable"), the only context in which this becomes an issue is if they need to do something for me and don't get it done. I don't think any ISTP ever engages people if he doesn't absolutely have to.

Which, of course, is 50% of why I do as much as I ever can by myself. The other 50% is the self-awareness that my style is incompatible with most people's, and it'd be unfair to demand of them to conform, when I myself wouldn't.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Northern Lights said:


> I was with you until "They kinda do their thing and want others to do theirs.", which is just another way of saying "live and let live", the fundamental ISTP way. You seem to contradict this in your middle part?


Yeah that was muddy. What I meant is that P types generally feel as though they don't necessarily have to function within society's rules. So long as they are thriving, that's all that matters. But when they do, they can become pretty black and white about (mostly IxxPs) because their Inferior Te or Fe becomes all or nothing. It's kinda like _''Okay, see? I'm doing what all the rest of you expect from me, so where's my payoff?''_


Again, not crapping on IP types, that's just their natural weakness. I can make a similar post for EJs/IJs/ and EPs about how their struggle with their inferior.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

@Stevester really covered it well, I'll just throw in that ISTJs with their Si are more attuned to common forms/formulae. They're more aware of what is typically done, what is expected, what the norm is and has been, and as Js they're more steady/regular in terms of their time flow and routines (like checking in with people). 

I think it varies a good amount from person to person too, though. My ISTP brother can be stereotypically cold/self-interersted at times but in general he's pretty open, friendly, laid-back, and welcoming. I have an ISTJ friend who is quite similar in "vibe" to my brother - friendly, welcoming, fun, funny - though also sometimes very serious and efficient - and then I also know an ISTJ who doesn't like most people (he said this directly) and is generally a jerk, TBH.



Stevester said:


> What I meant is that P types generally feel as though they don't necessarily have to function within society's rules. So long as they are thriving, that's all that matters.


If I can make a minor suggestion here - I think the general thought process is that we can't and shouldn't have to try to perfectly function within rules created by other people as long as we are not causing undue harm to anyone. It's not about not caring about everyone else; it's just that it doesn't really seem to make sense to just follow all the structures whoever else came up just because they're there, especially when so many of them are illogical and inefficient. I think most Ps still make a decent effort to follow most laws, wait in line like everyone else, pay their taxes, generally contribute to the common good, whatever. We just tend to see boundaries, rules, deadlines, and other structures as one-size-fits-all attempts and generally able to be adjusted/bent to fit specific situations.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

^ That's exactly what I meant. Most P types do follow rules and conventions but usually feel like they have no choice. They can however, more often than not, see the benefits of it. Otherwise, every P type would be a sociopath, just doing what they feel like all the time and not even batting an eye at how it affects others. J types however, intrinsically have this notion that they are part of a social system and that most of the time, following the guidelines is not only necessary, but beneficial in the long run. Something that P types love to question, challenge and dispute.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Stevester said:


> Te and Fe (J types) are kinda always slave to social rules and construct on some level, they work for society in one way or another. P types, not so much. They kinda do their thing and want others to do theirs. Inferior Fe struggles a lot with social grace. They feel like they can do and say whatever, whether it offends people or not, but then demand some validation in return. So needless to say that often rubs people the wrong way.
> 
> I actually had this discussion with my ISTP buddy the other day. He always complains about how people are stupid and unreliable. I keep telling him that other people are who they are and they don't owe him anything. Unlike him I don't give a shit about other people and what they do, but my _''live and let live''_ mantra slides by better socially. Whereas with him it's always tug-o-war of engaging with people, expecting things in return and then going off on them when that doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


Yup sounds like my ISTP friend, especially his complaint about ppl.

Damn, I laughed out loud and that very last sentence.


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## JennyJukes (Jun 29, 2012)

Zeri said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. That's good that your INTP has such developed Fe. How did he develop it? I think Intps and Istps both have inferior Fe? I think it's important to us ISFJS to have someone who checks in with us emotionally, like you said. It does bother me...yes. I've spoken to him about it before and he says it's not that he doesn't care.... but sometimes it just doesnt' really occur to him to ask. Being a FE user - I find it difficult to understand, but then I also realize that it probably comes from his undeveloped Fe. I've told him it makes me feel like it's not interested in my day, or my experiences... and that I try to show interest in his activities, but that I feel like he doesn't show interest in my own. It's the same thing with our daughter - she would come home from school or practices and he would hardly ever ask her 'How was your day?" or "how was your practice"? I don't even think he knows the name of her school teacher because he barely asks her about school! I just find that unacceptable. To me, it's important to show interest in the experiences of those around you and to build a bridge of communication where the other person (daughter or me) can share about what's going on with us. When he doesn't ask, I feel like he doesn't care and I keep everything inside... which makes me feel lonely when it comes to things that are happening with me. I mentioned this in a thread sometime ago and the suggestion was to still share with him about my day etc, which I do try to do sometimes, but I do wish he would make the effort to show interest by making the effort to ask, too. He does try sometimes, to his credit, but sometimes i feel I would rather he had more Fe.... it would just be easier in terms of connecting overall. AT least, for me as an Isfj.
> 
> He also hates talking about feelings. Do you have that issue with your INTP?


I asked my INTP how he developed his Fe and he said it helped being around different types of people in University. My INTP is probably much younger than your ISTP and if he hasn't learned yet he might never. I understand the frustrations as I tried with my ESTJ ex to get him to be more involved in mine/his family's life and explain how I felt but he simply didn't care. That's outside of MBTI though but your ISTP should be trying to make more of an effort. What if you stopped making effort with him? Would he notice? Would he care? 

It might just be something you'll have to accept and try not to change him. If he's always been this way, then there's probably nothing you can do about it. Are there any other ways he shows he cares that you could maybe focus on?

My INTP talks to me about his feelings very well. We communicate very well as we both know it's important to each other.


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## Northern Lights (Mar 25, 2016)

angelfish said:


> If I can make a minor suggestion here - I think the general thought process is that we can't and shouldn't have to try to perfectly function within rules created by other people as long as we are not causing undue harm to anyone. It's not about not caring about everyone else; it's just that it doesn't really seem to make sense to just follow all the structures whoever else came up just because they're there, especially when so many of them are illogical and inefficient. I think most Ps still make a decent effort to follow most laws, wait in line like everyone else, pay their taxes, generally contribute to the common good, whatever. We just tend to see boundaries, rules, deadlines, and other structures as one-size-fits-all attempts and generally able to be adjusted/bent to fit specific situations.


Well, it was a fair position to take. It simply depends on your point of view.

The fact that we still follow most laws etc. is indeed just an incidental consequence of having set matching rules for ourselves. We still aren't really following _their_ rules but ours, it just so happens they are the same.

People who misunderstand this or don't see the difference always end up unpleasantly surprised whenever the two sets don't match, and we end up ruffling feathers with actions that -- for them -- come out of the left field.

*Edit:* Also, having an ISTP close-ish around, how's it work? My own experience with an IxFP I always used to sum up with "I understand completely and disagree entirely" -- what motivates behaviour, the need for an own outlook on things etc., all that was always similar, so I fundamentally understood her, but we just always disagreed on what that outlook should be :tongue:


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

Northern Lights said:


> The reason is that we see the world and judge it with ourselves as the standard. So in this particular case, he does not expect people to ask him about his day because it's not important information in a factual sense -- and if it was important information, he'd share it, unprompted -- so in turn, it does not occur to him that _others_ might expect to be asked.
> 
> This is our fundamental limitation. Inter-personal things that aren't true for ourselves we have problems accounting for, and the younger he is, the worse it is. Lacking other options, we have to consciously learn to do it in every individual case, and that's naturally slow and inefficient. Don't expect this to change much or quickly. With age does come wisdom, but you have to get there first. If you can't accept this as a blind spot he has now, which is made up for by other qualities, eventually the relationship is in real danger of breaking down. Just as a heads-up.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think that first part is particularly true for my Istp. He doesn't sometimes think those small talk questions are important. Sometimes when I ask him, "so how are you?" he'll turn it back at me and say "How are YOU?", which I find incredibly annoying. I've read that Istps are famous for evading personal questions like that. IT's annoying to me because I ask you the question because I really want to know... but sometimes he would say "why do I ask?", or that if he had something interesting to share he would share it etc. So he doesn't attach the same importance to those questions as I do, for sure.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

P's are more self-centered than J's in general. See: conscientiousness


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

JennyJukes said:


> I asked my INTP how he developed his Fe and he said it helped being around different types of people in University. My INTP is probably much younger than your ISTP and if he hasn't learned yet he might never. I understand the frustrations as I tried with my ESTJ ex to get him to be more involved in mine/his family's life and explain how I felt but he simply didn't care. That's outside of MBTI though but your ISTP should be trying to make more of an effort. What if you stopped making effort with him? Would he notice? Would he care?
> 
> It might just be something you'll have to accept and try not to change him. If he's always been this way, then there's probably nothing you can do about it. Are there any other ways he shows he cares that you could maybe focus on?
> 
> My INTP talks to me about his feelings very well. We communicate very well as we both know it's important to each other.


That's really good re: your INTP. My Istp is 50 - in a sense he's always been that way but he has been trying to make an effort on it, for sure. I think he would notice if I stopped engaging with him about the things he liked (like DJing) - he usually looks out for feedback from me on his shows etc, which I'm happy to give. He probably wouldn't care so much about the other small talk questions, though, as he doesn't see that as important, as mentioned in my latest reply. 

He does share care in other ways, for sure - he's very physically affectionate and also would do things for me to show his love. I do want him to develop the emotional engagement side of him a bit more, though- I think it can only help him be a bit more rounded of a person, and I know it would help immensely in building a relationship with his daughter (who is esfj and thrives on communication etc), and others around him.


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

Zeri said:


> Yes, I think that first part is particularly true for my Istp. He doesn't sometimes think those small talk questions are important. Sometimes when I ask him, "so how are you?" he'll turn it back at me and say "How are YOU?", which I find incredibly annoying. I've read that Istps are famous for evading personal questions like that. IT's annoying to me because I ask you the question because I really want to know... but sometimes he would say "why do I ask?",* or that if he had something interesting to share he would share it etc*. So he doesn't attach the same importance to those questions as I do, for sure.


I am very similar to your ISTP especially the bolded.


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## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

Stevester said:


> Te and Fe (J types) are kinda always slave to social rules and construct on some level, they work for society in one way or another. P types, not so much. *They kinda do their thing and want others to do theirs.* Inferior Fe struggles a lot with social grace.* They feel like they can do and say whatever, whether it offends people or not, but then demand some validation in return. *So needless to say that often rubs people the wrong way.


This is soooo true in my experience with ISTPs. When this side is revealed, they come off as brats. And they're really really needy for validation, but that may not be apparent. However, I have not see that this rubs people the wrong way. Many people actually buy into it, or they're blind to it.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Northern Lights said:


> Well, it was a fair position to take. It simply depends on your point of view.
> 
> The fact that we still follow most laws etc. is indeed just an incidental consequence of having set matching rules for ourselves. We still aren't really following _their_ rules but ours, it just so happens they are the same.
> 
> People who misunderstand this or don't see the difference always end up unpleasantly surprised whenever the two sets don't match, and we end up ruffling feathers with actions that -- for them -- come out of the left field.


Oh, so true. Observing others' responses can range from amusing to perplexing to frustrating. 



> *Edit:* Also, having an ISTP close-ish around, how's it work? My own experience with an IxFP I always used to sum up with "I understand completely and disagree entirely" -- what motivates behaviour, the need for an own outlook on things etc., all that was always similar, so I fundamentally understood her, but we just always disagreed on what that outlook should be :tongue:


Hah! Well, it's kind of funny, on the surface I think my ISTP brother and I are quite different. He's outwardly relaxed and logical while I'm engaging and emotional. Also - my brother will tease people up-front more than me, but he is more gentle/forgiving when they have crossed lines. I am more likely to be gentle and polite up front but I have little patience after someone has crossed a line. We certainly can disagree because of those instinctual first-level responses to our worlds - me saying he's a self-centered ass; him saying I'm the moral police and overreactive, etc. However, under the surface, we often seem to make virtually the same judgments about people and processes. I take it that's fairly similar to you and the IxFP understanding each others' perspective but not coming to the same conclusion regarding what should be done about it. My brother and I definitely do understand each other on the IxxP level of _oh look, people are doing things, let's preferably not (unless they're fun)._ Despite the outward differences, we are fundamentally both quiet, flexible people who value science and like pursuing fun leisure things with the people we are close to. Overall, it seems like we start at the same place, deviate, and then end up back together.



Zeri said:


> I've read that Istps are famous for evading personal questions like that.


IME periods of shared silence and just doing things together can help create the space/comfort/intimacy that gives way to personal revelation. With my brother sharing just comes when it comes. Asking doesn't seem to yield much higher of a likelihood than just interacting in general.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

angelfish said:


> Oh, so true. Observing others' responses can range from amusing to perplexing to frustrating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh...that's interesting....(the last part).....thanks.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

So regarding the differences between ISTJS and ISTPS as posted in the tile question of this thread - it has nothing really do do with introverted feeling of the ISTJ, but is more of an introverted sensing and judging thing?


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

Fi is subjective, can set different values, so i guess one ISTJ could value knowing what is going in the family a others might not care at all.


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## ivegotthemunchies (Nov 17, 2018)

Istp have low Fe. Fe are responsible for people skills. If you're low at people skills, then you're not good at dealing with people.

Istjs may seem to look like they have people skills, but they're just actually more likely to conform with the rules, etc.. Conforming to the rules may look like good at social harmony


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

istjs can't be alone for more than two or three days w/o seeking company


I don't know many istps but if they are like intps then they have no problem being alone for much longer periods of time


that doesn't mean istjs are good with people, however...they're not exfjs or esfps...rather, istjs are most comfortable in casual, impersonal situations that don't demand intense personal investment...basically they're casual play pals, people you can chill with when you don't want to do anything serious


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> istjs can't be alone for more than two or three days w/o seeking company




ie, it's not about "following rules" for istjs...they have a genuine need to be around people they feel comfortable with...so they're more sociable than istps who can be real loners


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

to answer the op's question, istjs seek out people because they get bored more quickly than istps


Se causes istps to seek out new experiences, which is open-ended, so istps can go on serial solo adventures without needing to interact with people


Si, otoh, causes istjs to regulate their immediate environment, which is closed-ended since Si regulation largely means maintaining the status quo...since istjs are ever vigilent about their Si world they seldom depart too far from stasis...boredom, therefore, sets in relatively quickly, hence their greater sociability


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Another mbti generalization. They never end here


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

istjs, like all js, are also more prone to anxiety...socializing is one way they deal with their feelings


istps, otoh, are more laid back and may not even give a fuck enough to talk about shit


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

anxiety also means istjs feel a need to influence people in their environment...being attuned is the feedback loop in their control system


istps, otoh, don't give a fuck and are therefore less likely to notice people


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## Sybow (Feb 1, 2016)

So many stereotypes, so many misinformed people.


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

ae1905 said:


> istjs can't be alone for more than two or three days w/o seeking company
> 
> I don't know many istps but if they are like intps then they have no problem being alone for much longer periods of time
> 
> that doesn't mean istjs are good with people, however...they're not exfjs or esfps...rather, istjs are most comfortable in casual, impersonal situations that don't demand intense personal investment...basically they're casual play pals, people you can chill with when you don't want to do anything serious


First sentence totally made up by you, how can you even know that.
Generally You wrote bunch of non sense made out of thin air, not even stereotypes.
The last part is SX instinct in enneagram. As Sx blind I can somewhat agree, but not every ISTJ is SX last.



> To answer the op's question, istjs seek out people because they get bored more quickly than istps
> 
> Se causes istps to seek out new experiences, which is open-ended, so istps can go on serial solo adventures without needing to interact with people


It is opposite, Se gets them bored quickly, Si will get ISTJ involved in their lonely activity for longer.



> Si, otoh, causes istjs to regulate their immediate environment, which is closed-ended since Si regulation largely means maintaining the status quo...since istjs are ever vigilent about their Si world they seldom depart too far from stasis...boredom, therefore, sets in relatively quickly, hence their greater sociability


Status Quo is Fe not Si, so many people mix those 2 together , but that is incorrect




> istjs, like all js, are also more prone to anxiety...socializing is one way they deal with their feelings
> istps, otoh, are more laid back and may not even give a fuck enough to talk about shit


 Source for that claim ?


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I wouldn't take someone who had to express his opinion into 5 consecutive posts too seriously.


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

Its not about taking him seriously or not. There is always a chance someone else will get something out if it. As i mentioned for example a lot people still cant quite differentiate Si from Fe.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Elwinz said:


> First sentence totally made up by you, how can you even know that.
> Generally You wrote bunch of non sense made out of thin air, not even stereotypes.
> The last part is SX instinct in enneagram. As Sx blind I can somewhat agree, but not every ISTJ is SX last.




my own observations of istjs


they are not happy loners like ixtps





> It is opposite, Se gets them bored quickly, Si will get ISTJ involved in their lonely activity for longer.




nope


Se is open-ended and easily finds opportunities for new activities and adventures, including solo ones



Si, otoh, is_ closed-ended_...as soon as a happy Si stasis is achieved, Si is left with nothing to do...this happens quickly because Si seldom ventures far from stasis





> Status Quo is Fe not Si, so many people mix those 2 together , but that is incorrect




nope


you are confusing _personal _status quo for _social _status quo...Si is about maintaining _personal _status quos





> Source for that claim ?



sure


mbti J vs P dichotomy


Js hew more closely to routines because they're less adaptable (than Ps)...this is probably related to lower Ne or openness to experience


Ps, not so much




also, mbti typing


istps are typed as cool customers


istjs are typed as duitiful workers


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

I dunno, I feel like ISTPs are actually more socially adept on average than ISTJs. ISTJs are usually pretty nice, but they come off as quite aloof to me. I have an ISTJ friend who I love and he's really nice but he never knows when to shut up lol.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

morgandollar said:


> I dunno, I feel like ISTPs are actually more socially adept on average than ISTJs. ISTJs are usually pretty nice, but they come off as quite aloof to me. I have an ISTJ friend who I love and he's really nice but he never knows when to shut up lol.


Cool. I think both types can come across as pretty reserved and aloof at times...


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## ANAXEL (Feb 16, 2017)

It looks like I'm late to the party (which seems to suck, btw), but here are my two cents:

SIMPLE ANSWER:

Fi IS more people oriented. However, it's experiential, so at first it seems anti-social, but it exponentially becomes more altruistic.
Fe IS NOT people oriented, it's people dependent. The collective unconscious orientation is pivotal to their self-validation.
Fi = empathy: "Do on to others as you'd want others to do to you"
Fe = sympathy: "Don't give a man a fish, TEACH him how to fish".

So, yes. IXTJ's are much more socially attuned, albeit awkwardly at first.

LONG PRETENTIOUS ANSWER:


* *





It's IXTJ's vs IXTP's overall, the same can be seen on N-types.

I think that *Te-Fi*, when healthy, seeks and analyzes input from others in order to become more useful.
Te-Fi's tend to have ONE (usually extroverted) friend on whose input they depend on in order to correctly contribute "service". If what they are trying to do to others isn't received well according to that extro (usually Fe) friend's input, they'll trust it and change their approach accordingly.
Simply put, if the IXTJ gets their Fi fulfillment out of helping others, they do become more people oriented and seem dependent on others almost as much as an Extrovert would seem. Fi will put itself in the shoes of others and thus will force themselves to contribute to their society however they understand they should.

For example: An INTJ may choose a career in music because they once heard a song that spoke to them so deeply that in changed their life, so now they want to count on a platform that guarantees the same will be experienced by at least another person, becoming even more in tune with very deep aspects of human emotions.
An ISTJ may drive on the lane they know they'll exit a highway through miles in anticipation because they have been cut off so many times by irresponsible P-types (me lol) that their Fi WILL N O T allow them to do the same to others.

*Ti-Fe* works differently. Their feeling of the self is based on what they perceive are the Fe standards, the social hierarchy.
So they can actually be as socially dependent as Te-Fi, but this need for social input will be displayed much differently as their approach is to get information about where they stand socially rather than practically.
This doesn't mean they won't be attuned to others though.
The smarter Ti users will identify charismatic human qualities as the most logical approach to human interaction.
HOWEVER, with Ti primary, all the unnecessary fluff that Fe tends to apply is almost totally cut off and they stick to basics.

For example: An INTP may completely hate dancing at parties because, honestly, Ti can see how pointless such practice is. However, they could be up on helping someone choose the best dancing shoes that can aid in their movement and overall efficiency and do tons on research on it the actual dancer may never bother doing because they love educating him/her.
An ISTP may never really talk... ever, but they'll be right next to you helping you out on your car ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT in exchange for a couple of beers (sorry for the stereotypical example, but you have no idea how many times this has happened in real life). 

I think that's why IXTJ's can seem much more people oriented than IXTP's.


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

ANAXEL said:


> It looks like I'm late to the party (which seems to suck, btw), but here are my two cents:
> 
> SIMPLE ANSWER:
> 
> ...


I think your analysis on Fe users is a bit harsh. It makes them sound like narcissists. I don't think the difference between Fe and Fi is that Fi is moral and Fe is self-serving, I think Fi users tend to be more aware of their inner states while Fe users are more receptive to the states of others. This doesn't mean Fe users are more empathetic, in some ways Fi users are better at "putting themselves in another's shoes" because they imagine how something would make them feel. And since human beings are for the most part pretty similar, this generally works well as a way to empathize with others if the Fi user is healthy.

Fe asks "How would that make _somebody_ feel?", and the conclusion is reached in part by Ti logic. Fi asks "How would that make _me_ feel?" and uses Te to judge the condition of the self, which is an objective fact to the person, and relate it to the other person.


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## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

ANAXEL said:


> An ISTJ may drive on the lane they know they'll exit a highway through miles in anticipation because they have been cut off so many times by irresponsible P-types (me lol) that their Fi WILL N O T allow them to do the same to others.


Maybe not for miles, but generally correct from my PoV. I don't want to be THAT asshole that cuts people off at the last minute to make an exit. It's got nothing to do with "rules" or safety or any other crap people like to pile on us. Just as you noted, I don't like it when others do it to me and will not do the same.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

jcal said:


> Maybe not for miles, but generally correct from my PoV. I don't want to be THAT asshole that cuts people off at the last minute to make an exit. It's got nothing to do with "rules" or safety or any other crap people like to pile on us. Just as you noted, I don't like it when others do it to me and will not do the same.


I feel like an istp would kind of do that, though (cut someone off if it means getting to where they would sooner)- it seems that istps value comfort and ease sometimes, over other people's feelings (compared to istjs). Am I right? Or maybe it's more of an estp thing (I"m generalizing, I know). I know that istps value fairness, too. though.... 

Generally, istps seem more focused on themselves and their comfort/pleasure than istjs, I think....


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## ANAXEL (Feb 16, 2017)

morgandollar said:


> I think your analysis on Fe users is a bit harsh. It makes them sound like narcissists. I don't think the difference between Fe and Fi is that Fi is moral and Fe is self-serving, I think Fi users tend to be more aware of their inner states while Fe users are more receptive to the states of others. This doesn't mean Fe users are more empathetic, in some ways Fi users are better at "putting themselves in another's shoes" because they imagine how something would make them feel. And since human beings are for the most part pretty similar, this generally works well as a way to empathize with others if the Fi user is healthy.
> 
> Fe asks "How would that make _somebody_ feel?", and the conclusion is reached in part by Ti logic. Fi asks "How would that make _me_ feel?" and uses Te to judge the condition of the self, which is an objective fact to the person, and relate it to the other person.


Yeah, my wording may need some work.
I don’t think Fe is generally self serving (goal oriented, yeah, but usually very self-sacrificial for the most part), but I guess my point was that its focus could be on what’s correct but not so much what’s inside. It’s much more common for Fi to be more sensitive than Fe, but Fe works better on evoking an emotion.


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

ANAXEL said:


> It’s much more common for Fi to be more sensitive than Fe, but Fe works better on evoking an emotion.


Not totally sure I agree, for example I find ISFJs tend to be more feelsy than ISFPs.


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## ANAXEL (Feb 16, 2017)

morgandollar said:


> Not totally sure I agree, for example I find ISFJs tend to be more feelsy than ISFPs.


LOL my mistake. I meant Sensible, not sensitive. Stupid english.


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## INTPortland (Sep 4, 2017)

ISTPs are warmer in my experience


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

Actually interest in people, details about their life is FE. FJs do that all the time. Anyone can do this, but this is a show of Fe. Not just my conclusion. ISTP has inferior Fe so it will take time before they will develop it, but even more so for ISTJ. @Zeri you would have to compare people of similar age, not your dad and husband where there is big age gap. To have more clear view on this, since your dad with his age probably just developed it.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

Elwinz said:


> Actually interest in people, details about their life is FE. FJs do that all the time. Anyone can do this, but this is a show of Fe. Not just my conclusion. I*STP has inferior Fe so it will take time before they will develop it, but even more so for ISTJ. @Zeri you would have to compare people of similar age, not your dad and husband where there is big age gap. To have more clear view on this, since your dad with his age probably just developed it*.


That's a good point, actually.....


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## soop (Aug 6, 2016)

Its probably because ISTJs are Si dom and ISTPs are Ti dom.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

Soop -hmm, can you explain? Not sure I understand the link


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## soop (Aug 6, 2016)

Zeri said:


> Soop -hmm, can you explain? Not sure I understand the link


Si relates external cues to memories, so it not only is aware of what is happening in the physical environment, it relates it back to other memories when a similar thing occurred in a similar context, this helps build an understanding of how people in the physical environment react to a certain type of cue. Ti doesn't do this, ti is much more internally isolated and less about the events themselves than the analysis in ones own head and own head alone of them.


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## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

I have completely forget things like "happy christmas" this year... In fact, the previous ones too ...


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## Morn (Apr 13, 2010)

There are several reasons for why ISTJs may be more in tune with people. The first is that of tertiary feeling verses inferior feeling. As described by John Beebe, the tertiary takes on the archetype of the eternal child while the inferior takes on the archetype of the anima/animus. 
Hence the tertiary function takes on a more playful nature, people may not take it that seriously but they feel comfortable in using it. When it comes to the inferior, either you dismiss it (as usually the case early in life when it lacks development) or you doubt your ability to use it effectively even when you wish to use it, you are drawn to it through a compulsion to overcome your inferiority but you will also often avoid it through fear of humiliation. The issue here is an ISTP is required to engage their inferior when dealing with people, is not a problem that ISTJs face. Even though ISTJs may not necessarily regard it as important.
Another factor to consider is the influence of enneagram. I would note that ISTPs being Ti doms are strongly correlated with enneagram 5. Where ISTJs correlate strongly with enneagram 1 and enneagram 6. To put it succinctly/simply, both 1 and 6 feature the compliance triad in the enneagram type meaning there is a greater valuation for social appropriateness.




G.13 said:


> I have completely forget things like "happy christmas" this year... In fact, the previous ones too ...


I can get behind that. Christmas is quite a ridiculous holiday. This sadistic religion that wishes to express love through capital punishment. No thank you.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

soop said:


> Si relates external cues to memories, so it not only is aware of what is happening in the physical environment, it relates it back to other memories when a similar thing occurred in a similar context, this helps build an understanding of how people in the physical environment react to a certain type of cue. Ti doesn't do this, ti is much more internally isolated and less about the events themselves than the analysis in ones own head and own head alone of them.


This is correct.

Se observes cues about people in the moment, Si obverses cues about people in the long term, ultimately drawing a pretty accurate picture of what that person is all about: their values, their likes, dislikes, what makes them tick etc. eventually being able to completely adapt to someone. It takes a long time however, so it's very likely that ISTJs come off as cold or awkward upon the first encounter. I've actually had several people telling me they thought I was _''weird''_ and _''disconnected''_ the first time they met me. SPs tend to handle any social interaction as it happens and it can sometimes change drastically given their mood or the context. Their subconscious is highly attuned to how a person reacts and sounds like in the moment, but it tends to dismiss the history behind the person. And just as ISTJs are the worst of the SJs at social interaction, ISTPs can also be the worst of the SPs at social interaction. (Some really reserved ISFPs can give them a run for their money though).


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## Kratistos (Nov 30, 2015)

Yes, ISTP are much more focused on things and less on people. I knew an ISTP who had horrible social skills but solid math ability.


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## Veni Vidi Vici (Jun 8, 2018)

Fi-Te vs Ti-Fe

Ti-Fe users are relatively more socially friendly outside and impartial and rational inside. And Fi-Te are more no-nonsense outside and have more personalized values inside.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Veni Vidi Vici said:


> Fi-Te vs Ti-Fe
> 
> Ti-Fe users are relatively more socially friendly outside and impartial and rational inside. And Fi-Te are more no-nonsense outside and have more personalized values inside.


Why should those qualities go together? For instance the people who seem the most "no nonsense" seem to also trend in the direction of devaluing personal values in general and even seeing them as the nonsense that they're against.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

Thanks for the comments. I feel like a lot of it has to do with Fi..... in addition to some of the other points that were mentioned. I'm feeling that tertiary Fi may be meeting other's emotional needs than inferior Fe. And I think that ISTJs, being judger types...are more likely to be polite and courteous etc...compared to perceiver types who don't really follow social rules.


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