# ??????????????????????????????



## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

I am sure I am INTJ. I am just curious of alternatives. I have been posed ISTP.

*In way(s) I do not relate to INTJ.
*

0.) I do not mind leading in groups. Really do not care either way.

1.) I do not mind being in groups. Getting work done is far more important than feeling uncomfortable about that type of stuff.

2.) I express anger openly. 

3.) Not aloof or mysterious (from my own POV).

4.) Not bugged by talking about certain stuff. Ask me face-to-face, I will usually say it.

5.) Did not pursue a scientific degree/career.

6.) In touch with sensing.

7.) Can handle highly intense emotional situations; and actively subdue.

8.) No aha moments, realizations, or psychic shit.

9.) Not misanthropic; does not hate humanity. Not "optimistic" either.

10.) Many INTJ stuff seems over-exaggerated.

11.) I do not make a big deal out of half the small shit many INTJ's tend to. Like, small talk. Someone being dumber than me, etc. I just do not care.

12.) Not emotionally crippled nor naive -- "clueless" about people/social interactions. Usually engaging.

13.) Reads body language/people well.

14.) Not allergic to extroverted feeling.

15.) Authenticity can be sacrifice if it calls for it. (Professionalism, fake-smiling, fake-compliments, social submission for leverage). There is too much at stake then to worry about being forced to fake smile or something. I do not care about kind of inauthentic stuff.



---

What is a posed alternative type?


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## UberY0shi (Nov 24, 2016)

Uh huh honey...



Catwalk said:


> I am sure I am INTJ. I am just curious of alternatives. I have been posed ISTP.
> 
> *In way(s) I do not relate to INTJ.
> *
> ...


I keep spamming this Everyone on Acid, Touch My Soul To Fulfill My Pleasures song in your signature. It's so goood... :blushed:

I mean ISTPs Ti and organizing subjective systems is pretty darn different from INTJ Ni. Possible alternative though.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Your speech pattern and content seem to be more Fi than Fe. Feels like you have an unchangeable attitude/charachter and you might troll or not (your alien way of speech when you go about humanoids or what was it again? just to make a funny persona for your own delight and interest, without changing it according to circumstances). 

In general you dont seem to care about others' perception of you, and thats a state you can hold for a long time in this place, even if we talk about online, you seem to mostly care about your own views and feelings and to avoid making adjustments in them just to fit into discussions and topics, or atleast not enough as a Fe somebody would do. I guess thats also a sign that could point to introversion but you are already set on that one so ...yeah. 

Anyway seems to me that INTJ fits well.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm just gonna come in here and say that I'm glad you're re-thinking and walk right back out without offering any alternatives. I am engaged in your discovery of self and it'll be interesting to see where you go from here.


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## Winegums (Sep 8, 2014)

You're pointing out a lot of stereotypical behaviours of INTJ that you don't connect with which is probably the problem. Not everyone is the typical image of their type. 

For example an INTJ might take lead on a project because they cannot stand to have someone above them making poor decisions. They might not be 100% comfortable but they can get past that by knowing that they are the best person for the job. 

Not all INTJ take STEM jobs, not all INTJ are cold and distant, Not all INTJ are unstable or unable to deal with small things. 

Further the psychic properties of Ni are one of the worst misconceptions in typology/functions. It is not Psychic, there's no Aha moment, No immaculate realizations like people seem to think. Ni is constantly pooling information, adding up the variables, adding up evidence, and filling in the blanks in the background of the mind. Once the picture/equation is complete it presents the finding to the person in a big mental lump. It's not a sudden thing or something that the person was unaware of, it's always a build up to the actual realization.

For example, Ni presents itself in conversations by completing what the other person is saying in your head before they're even finished. It likes to jump to conclusions once there's enough information that it feels it can fill in the rest of the blanks.


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## Ermenegildo (Feb 25, 2014)

*Five Factor Model: Extremes of Personality Traits*


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Ermenegildo said:


>


I suppose Big Five is a factor, as well. I score almost 50/50 between I/E, pretty high on openness, moderate on contentiousness, like %1 on agreeableness, low neuroticism. I dunno what this means in regards to MBTI.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Catwalk said:


> I suppose Big Five is a factor, as well. I score almost 50/50 between I/E, pretty high on openness, moderate on contentiousness, like %1 on agreeableness, low neuroticism. I dunno what this means in regards to MBTI.


Describe your _ambiversion _in as much detail as you can.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Winegums said:


> You're pointing out a lot of stereotypical behaviours of INTJ that you don't connect with which is probably the problem. Not everyone is the typical image of their type.
> 
> For example an INTJ might take lead on a project because they cannot stand to have someone above them making poor decisions. They might not be 100% comfortable but they can get past that by knowing that they are the best person for the job.
> 
> Not all INTJ take STEM jobs, not all INTJ are cold and distant, Not all INTJ are unstable or unable to deal with small things.


Some of these stereotypes have a (general) consensus and/or pattern - so I cannot help but feel maybe there is something I am missing. Maybe I am not turning over some rocks. 

INTJ's really hate (Fe), too. It does not bug me. I am not complaining about the horribleness of Fe, because I am not necessarily seeing what is so repulsive about the function. 




> Further the psychic properties of Ni are one of the worst misconceptions in typology/functions. It is not Psychic, there's no Aha moment, No immaculate realizations like people seem to think. Ni is constantly pooling information, adding up the variables, adding up evidence, and filling in the blanks in the background of the mind. Once the picture/equation is complete it presents the finding to the person in a big mental lump. It's not a sudden thing or something that the person was unaware of, it's always a build up to the actual realization.
> 
> For example, Ni presents itself in conversations by completing what the other person is saying in your head before they're even finished. It likes to jump to conclusions once there's enough information that it feels it can fill in the rest of the blanks.


This is how I describe/or "experience" Ni most days. I am going off the INFJ take on Ni, too. Sometimes it is described as some really magical like stuff and I am wondering if I am missing something. Lol. Because I am not going those intimate feelings/magical moment(s) from my intuition. Ni is just something that happens. Like it is always there. So I don't really notice anything unique/out of this world happening. The novelty of it. It is kind of underwhelming.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

UberY0shi said:


> Perhaps your head type is a 7 to go along with your 8w7 wing? Or maybe not..


I hadn't considered factoring (other) combos, as well. Such as how w7, may come into play. 



> Ok interesting. Most INTJs I know are too engrossed in future oriented thought processes and don't incorporate their immediate suroundings as often in thought.


This is something else that stumps me, too. I am never not "in the moment," per se. Of course, I am heavily in my head with introversion - the future and all, but I never lose myself anywhere. I am highly alert, aware of my environment, observational, interactive. I am never not there in a physical sense, so I don't even know what "not being aware of surroundings," means in the context of being an INTJ.



> I keep spamming this Everyone on Acid, Touch My Soul To Fulfill My Pleasures song in your signature. It's so goood... :blushed:


It's techno. You will likely love some other stuff I like, also if you are into this song. I post lot(s) of music around here, lul.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> Describe your _ambiversion _in as much detail as you can.


I do not think I am an ambivert, that is just what the tests say -- maybe because my social anxieties are low; so I am not really hiding from/avoiding people when I go out, or something. If a stranger talks to me, I do not mind talking to them - and making basic convo. I am not freaking out about there being "no depth" to anything. I do not need a constant 'in depth' conversation to feel like contributing to someone that is directly talking to me, lol. It is just abnormal to sit there and stare them in the face and not contribute because we are not talking about existentialism and personal details. That kind of stuff does not bug me. I do not think it makes me a "people's person," or anything, just that socializing with someone is not complicated for me. My _stamina _is low, in a sense it takes more out than recharges; so I do not see much ambiversion in myself on a chemical/physiological level. But, I am not that quiet, or a wallflower or something. I think it is weird to show up and sit there with arms folded. It attract(s) all the attention and eyes you are hoping you will not get; it is just being pragmatic. It is better to move around than stand still. No one pays attention if you are moving around, being social - talking to the specimens you want to talk with. Everyone is looking at that guy sitting alone "avoiding everyone" though.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

If you feel you are ambiverted and all but you dont "hate Fe" or lose yourself too much in your head as N doms too have you thought of the possibility of being N aux and E? 

Well that depends of course on how you feel about your extraversion. You certainly appear to be I here but i guess we can never know how you really are to tell.

**Edit ok write this one off ^^ I just read your above post*


Also ive found the stereotype about ISTPs to be true to a certain extent for the most part. Do you enjoy breaking down stuff and put them back together, just so you can make your own changes in building or buying new equipment? 
Do you trust a product without knowing much about how its made?

How do you feel about handiwork? 
An INTJ usually would avoid it as much as possible considering their mind would be top priority for them.

Just randomly beating around the bush for clues here.


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## Winegums (Sep 8, 2014)

Ni is quite underwhelming when you’re constantly submerged in it like a stream. It’s always there so there’s no novelty and it’s not a surprise to be given these realizations. Others around me tend to be more amazed than me by what my mind has come up with. I think there’s a lot of fantasizing from people who don’t have it.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

SirCanSir said:


> Do you enjoy breaking down stuff and put them back together, just so you can make your own changes in building or buying new equipment?


I love that type of stuff. 



> Do you trust a product without knowing much about how its made?


Not really. (Unless I am a loyal customer to earlier version(s)); already.



> How do you feel about handiwork?
> An INTJ usually would avoid it as much as possible considering their mind would be top priority for them.


I love working my hands, for the most part. I know how to do flooring, tile placement, shelf/furniture building, all types of system set-ups, some types electric/plumbing repair. I do computer hardware repairs, too.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

Most of the points you have listed are stereotypes and they're not even the kind of stereotypes that have any truth in them...i guess that makes them misconceptions or just plain bullshit.

I can tell you one thing that strikes me as not very INTJ, though, which is that you openly act like a "dominatrix" and frequently refer to coitus with humanoid specimens when this is not required.
That does make me think you have higher Se than an INTJ. 

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Catwalk said:


> I love that type of stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a chance that's Se, Ti if you are really experimenting a lot with handiwork.

At the very least I think that your Se is higher than INTJs now. 

But it depends you know on how important working with your hands is to you against your Ni. 

Still probably stronger Se than inferior.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

FlaviaGemina said:


> .
> That does make me think you have higher Se than an INTJ.


Pretty much definitely.



SirCanSir said:


> Still probably stronger Se than inferior.




Both of you are on the right track imo.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Wild guess:

You are an INTJ who had developed her shadow functions really well you can be an ENTP every other day. They are the most introverted extrovert, i have heard.

Sent using Tapatalk


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Catwalk said:


> I do not think I am an ambivert, that is just what the tests say


Then it depends on how your answering the questions. 



> -- maybe because my social anxieties are low; so I am not really hiding from/avoiding people when I go out, or something.


Do you think that anxiety is the reason why people are introverted? 



> If a stranger talks to me, I do not mind talking to them - and making basic convo.


That's neither extraversion nor introversion. Notice your energy because that is really the core of it. Try to gauge which way the pendulum swings. I knew an INTJ girl and she and I could talk for 4-6 hours in a single sitting without even realizing where the time went. The difference was that she would be the one to say "ok time's up" whereas I would not care. Reflecting on the past, I see the energy gauge of hers depleting while mine was recharging. Consider the energy aspect. Don't compare to others. Figure it out for yourself. 



> I am not freaking out about there being "no depth" to anything. I do not need a constant 'in depth' conversation to feel like contributing to someone that is directly talking to me, lol.


Wouldn't link this to introversion and extraversion. A lot of people (wrongly) think that somehow wanting a "deep" conversation makes them an N but that's thanks to MBTI oversimplifying intuition and it becoming a kind of a trope on typology forums. 



> It is just abnormal to sit there and stare them in the face and not contribute because we are not talking about existentialism and personal details.


Aaah. Interesting. My wife and mom the introverts are unaware of the normality or abnormality of sitting there and not contributing. They engage people when _they_ are engaged, because they're in their heads the rest of the time. Actually kind of oblivious to even noticing this social moray of awkward silences. 



> That kind of stuff does not bug me. I do not think it makes me a "people's person," or anything, just that socializing with someone is not complicated for me.


I wouldn't call myself a people person either. I mean, I would rather just sit there quietly and disengage from surrounding - _if I could -_ but I can't. In that, I "envy" introversion because it seems more comfortable to not need/crave the moment-to-moment excitement of engagement. 

In some cases, extroverts have reported low energy and low desire to engage with people - but they are then engaged with objects nonetheless. 

I tend to agree with the concept that introversion/extraversion is a continuum and not a dichotomy. I'm high on the scale around 95% or so. But there are others who might genuinely be in the middle and that's why it's hard to see certain functions in them. 



> My _stamina _is low, in a sense it takes more out than recharges; so I do not see much ambiversion in myself on a chemical/physiological level. But, I am not that quiet, or a wallflower or something. I think it is weird to show up and sit there with arms folded. It attract(s) all the attention and eyes you are hoping you will not get; it is just being pragmatic. It is better to move around than stand still. No one pays attention if you are moving around, being social - talking to the specimens you want to talk with. Everyone is looking at that guy sitting alone "avoiding everyone" though.


Honestly speaking, a lot of this makes me want to tip the scale towards extroversion for you.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> Wild guess:
> 
> You are an INTJ who had developed her shadow functions really well you can be an ENTP every other day. They are the most introverted extrovert, i have heard.
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


Eww stereotyping here. Thats only said because of N being the dom, which means spending too much time on the head and i approve of that as i consider myself ambiverted, but its not quite as simple as ENTPs being more introverted in general. 
Like i can be bored of people quite easily and when i dont find the discussions/conversations i would make with them interesting i would find something else to occupy myself. And then extraversion needs start hitting and i could find myself online shitposting to fill that need but on the outside i would appear to be introverted. 

So its a lot about how big your individualistic preference for extraversion is and what exactly do you do to feed that need. For me it depends on the period and what interests or options i got at hand at the time. There was a period i even used perC as a way to feed my extraversion. Some other times i would just be outside.

I still need to be at home thinking though, not for energy reasons but i just need time alone in my head. So thats what makes me ambiverted. I cant really spend too much time with the same people since i get bored (though if i change groups i can maintain my energy like forever, its mostly about my interest) and i cant spend too much time without escaping into my head or researching stuff either. 
So actually my energy revolves around things that make me interested in them for the most part. 


Anyway got derailed, what i mean to say is that not every ENTP like not every INTJ has the same preference for introversion/extraversion and not every ENTP or INTJ deals with their needs the same way. 

So ENTPs being more introverted is probably MBTI getting into stereotypes once again. Once Ne is the top, E is there as much as in Te, Se and Fe.
Everything else is just individualistic ways to deal with it.


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## Winegums (Sep 8, 2014)

@Catwalk Have you considered that you might not be an INTJ but an ENTJ? 

I thought I was an INFJ for a while until I observed my Se to be too high functioning to be my inferior function. Upon further probing from my wife we determined that I'm an ENFJ.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

SirCanSir said:


> There is a chance that's Se, Ti if you are really experimenting a lot with handiwork.
> 
> At the very least I think that your Se is higher than INTJs now.
> 
> ...


I do not think (Se) exceeds my intuition. It is mostly just a result of liking to keep busy -- with something. I do not like not being busy, so I will do almost anything - which resulted in handiwork. I like doing it though; because I like seeing things come together, unfold, be fixed or fitted, and work in unison.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

contradictionary said:


> Wild guess:
> you can be an ENTP every other day. They are the most introverted extrovert, i have heard.
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


Nah. ENTP's generally get on my nerves; lul. Especially this bit I notice with them. I do not think we have much in common, either. 


* *






ENTPs are idea people. Their perceptive abilities cause them to see possibilities everywhere. They get excited and enthusiastic about their ideas, and are able to spread their enthusiasm to others. In this way, they get the support that they need to fulfill their visions.

ENTPs are less interested in developing plans of actions or making decisions than they are in generating possibilities and ideas. Following through on the implementation of an idea is usually a chore to the ENTP. For some ENTPs, this results in the habit of never finishing what they start. The ENTP who has not developed their Thinking process will have problems with jumping enthusiastically from idea to idea, without following through on their plans. The ENTP needs to take care to think through their ideas fully in order to take advantage of them.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Catwalk said:


> I do not think (Se) exceeds my intuition. It is mostly just a result of liking to keep busy -- with something. I do not like not being busy, so I will do almost anything - which resulted in handiwork. I like doing it though; because I like seeing things come together, unfold, be fixed or fitted, and work in unison.


Well yeah but generaly inferior is something you are usually bad at because it contradicts your Dom. If you do well with Se But you do better with Ni that would very well point at ENTJ for you, but im not sure about your extraversion so i got no idea.

How long are you able to stay at home alone without interactions? 
What kind of interactions do energise you?

P.S. i wonder if i should feel weird posting under a post dissing me.


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## Cherry (May 28, 2017)

From the outside, you actually do come across as 'aloof and mysterious' as you've put it. I'd even argue that's kinda your thing - at least on here, in perC world.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> Then it depends on how your answering the questions.
> 
> Do you think that anxiety is the reason why people are introverted?


I am going to answer favorably to both extroverted and introverted question(s); that are like, "Are you sociable, or?" I like going out for drinks, meeting someone new, talking to people. Same thing(s) get boring, sometimes. But I think this is natural - but in a sense, just reading this can sound like extroversion.

I think this is just normal social-interaction, though - not really anything to do with the E/I spectrum. I just think if you functional socially, you should be able to stand tall, look them in eye, shake-hands, and engage like an adult in a functional conversation, even if it isn't your cup of tea - anything else I find relatively disrespectful - a waste of my time, too. I am willing to carry the conversation for the sake of basic respect; or the basic rules of engagement. If the specimen isn't going to participate, they really do not need to be here sitting in my face, sucking up my view - or at least vocalize they are uncomfortable, so I can effectively gauge my own time better. It is not really an enjoyment of riding the ride for myself; if I could be anywhere, it likely wouldn't be partying it up talking to people, but I am here now so, I am going to get my money and my time's worth. I do not necessarily think this is a product of extroversion, even if it scores me 50/50 on it. 

I do not really find it practical to ignore opportunities to advance when they present themselves as optimizing; I think there is merit/utility in anything opposite of me that is optimizing somehow, somewhere, somewhen - even if it's "not me". So, if utilizing my "shadow functions" is going to boost me 20 steps ahead, I am going to figure out how to optimize utilizing something like Fe, or being "sociable" even if it is uncomfortable; so not 'understanding' Fe, or seeing the potential in of it to carry me somewhere better is what I perhaps do not understand about some INTJs.



> That's neither extraversion nor introversion. Notice your energy because that is really the core of it. Try to gauge which way the pendulum swings. I knew an INTJ girl and she and I could talk for 4-6 hours in a single sitting without even realizing where the time went. The difference was that she would be the one to say "ok time's up" whereas I would not care. Reflecting on the past, I see the energy gauge of hers depleting while mine was recharging. Consider the energy aspect. Don't compare to others. Figure it out for yourself.



The only time I can talk to someone for 4-6 hour(s) without calling quits is perhaps if I like them romantically. Other than that, I cannot really seeing myself carrying a conversation longer than hour with the same person without any form of breather/cut-off - or at least getting a sense that we both need to take some time off, think, regroup, then pick up where we left off. I don't really "recharge" by verbally exchanging content with someone, but it can stimulate me well, if the conversation is going in a decent direction, the content is nice, and we are both comfortable there .. this can happen with strangers - or specimens close to me, though. I am going to carry out the conversation until it fizzles away naturally, which could be 30 seconds or an hour. In comparison to other INTJ, I notice I am bit more open to this sort of thing - but this may just be a matter of generalized/individual distinctions.

I don't think I have any extroverted energy; I usually talk pretty low-energy, relaxed, heavy, slow/natural flow, compared to an extrovert, who is demonstrably getting a high. I do not necessarily get a high, or recharge, but sure, it is fun, _if it is fun_. I am not going to be in a hurry to get away.




> Aaah. Interesting. My wife and mom the introverts are unaware of the normality or abnormality of sitting there and not contributing. They engage people when _they_ are engaged, because they're in their heads the rest of the time. Actually kind of oblivious to even noticing this social moray of awkward silences.


Funny thing about that. I guess I learned that "picking and choosing," is better than being chosen when it comes to stuff like this. It is much more effective to control who I socialize with; than sit waiting for someone else to engage me, because more often than not, I do not even like the peep(s) that I am talking to. Like I am just standing there; trying to be interested lol, which is unnecessary stress/work on my part that could be avoided. I rather just fly under the radar -- the best way to do that (for myself anyhow), is to actively participate; not really introducing myself to anyone that moves - but sliding around being socially active. I don't think I ever "leave my head", per se.



> I wouldn't call myself a people person either. I mean, I would rather just sit there quietly and disengage from surrounding - _if I could -_ but I can't. In that, I "envy" introversion because it seems more comfortable to not need/crave the moment-to-moment excitement of engagement.


That is interesting; I suppose there isn't really any "craving" or "need" of engagement, just a sense of doing.. whatever works? So, I reckon it is like craving immense period(s) of alone time. But I do need a certain level of stimulation or "excitement". I do not really mind being in high-active/exciting environments. If I am not getting any type of stimulation/excitement, boredom sets in.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Winegums said:


> @Catwalk Have you considered that you might not be an INTJ but an ENTJ?
> 
> I thought I was an INFJ for a while until I observed my Se to be too high functioning to be my inferior function. Upon further probing from my wife we determined that I'm an ENFJ.


I settled for 8w7; which is why I leaned away from ENTJ, that the 8 may just be factoring into it. I will take it as an alternative. Thus far, I agree that my (Se) may be a bit more developed than usual. It seems like ISTP, ENTJ are good alternatives, which I have been told most. I appreciate all the answers here.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Candy said:


> From the outside, you actually do come across as 'aloof and mysterious' as you've put it. I'd even argue that's kinda your thing - at least on here, in perC world.


This ENFP I met offline a few day(s) ago said something similar, called me "dark and mysterious". I was relatively surprised, since I thought I was bring pretty open. Lol. This is interesting, though. I suppose it is just my own POV. Thanks for the input.


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## ECM (Apr 8, 2015)

This is why I have abandoned much of MBTI and it's quite frankly absurd stereotypes and "zodiac-like" reasoning system. 

I see MBTI is nothing but by it's functions, not assumptions of persona. And even the 8 functions I greatly question and have been in the proccess of putting to the test and trying to see if I can formate what I feel is a better and more accurate version of the system, based purely on Jung's orginal functions and then the "basis" of the 16 types of MBTI, but not in way where one's stacks are in an order proccess. I even feel that certain "variations of functions" (such as Fi and Fe, or Si and Se) may not even truly exist, and this is by personal experiance and study of other individuals, getting people typed and then putting their thought proccess and feelings to the test against the function descriptions. Some people show equal measure of both variations of certain functions in their stacks and so on.

My take is simply that MBTI types are the specrum of functions you most lean on and find easiest to make use of, but not that one is absent of the others or that they are used in a certain "order" like some sort of cognitive conveyor belt, or that one cannot even choose to put priority on one other an other, but the system only describing the level of effort one must put forth to do so. The "tools" we use to get jobs done, as opposed "what jobs" we can or cannot do. 

In addtion, that the system of cognition says nothing about taste, likes, dislikes, attitude, friendliness or just anything when it comes down to someone's "personality". 

I've come across INTJs (in terms of cognitive funtionality) who you'd think were ENFPs if going by personality traits, behaviour and stereotypes, and vice versa.. etc, etc. The whole system needs a rework.


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## Cherry (May 28, 2017)

ECM said:


> This is why I have abandoned much of MBTI and it's quite frankly absurd stereotypes and "zodiac-like" reasoning system.
> 
> I see MBTI is nothing but by it's functions, not assumptions of persona. And even the 8 functions I greatly question and have been in the proccess of putting to the test and trying to see if I can formate what I feel is a better and more accurate version of the system, based purely on Jung's orginal functions and then the "basis" of the 16 types of MBTI, but not in way where one's stacks are in an order proccess. I even feel that certain "variations of functions" (such as Fi and Fe, or Si and Se) may not even truly exist, and this is by personal experiance and study of other individuals, getting people typed and then putting their thought proccess and feelings to the test against the function descriptions. Some people show equal measure of both variations of certain functions in their stacks and so on.
> 
> ...


Finally, someone else who thinks the same things as me!


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Catwalk said:


> I am sure I am INTJ. I am just curious of alternatives. I have been posed ISTP.


yes, istp imo, I mean Ti, Se. Still a judger thou


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Catwalk said:


> Nah. ENTP's generally get on my nerves; lul. Especially this bit I notice with them. I do not think we have much in common, either.
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


Yeah. I'm just teasing both of you and thar sir above you. 

Sent using Tapatalk


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Winegums said:


> Further the psychic properties of Ni are one of the worst misconceptions in typology/functions. It is not Psychic, *there's no Aha moment*, No immaculate realizations like people seem to think. Ni is constantly pooling information, adding up the variables, adding up evidence, and filling in the blanks in the background of the mind. Once the picture/equation is complete it presents the finding to the person in a big mental lump. *It's not a sudden thing or something that the person was unaware of, it's always a build up to the actual realization.*
> 
> For example, Ni presents itself in conversations by completing what the other person is saying in your head before they're even finished. It likes to jump to conclusions once there's enough information that it feels it can fill in the rest of the blanks.


Ni can do several things (pattern recognition, filling in blanks, prediction and more). While I agree with your example as one example of how Ni works, the bolded is incorrect. Ni can yield 'aha moments' completely out of the blue. Although not frequently, I personally get random 'messages' delivered from my subconscious -- things I have not been actively thinking about at that time, sometimes things I've never thought about (new statement of fact, aha! Or random images or memories returned -- hinting at something which then leads me to the aha! realization). It's weird as hell but it happens. Perhaps not every INTJ experiences this but there is a reason people say that about Ni (although I wish people wouldn't refer to it as "psychic" -- messages delivered from subconscious processing only appear to come from nowhere or 'out there'). 

@Catwalk fwiw you've always struck me as an _unusually socially gifted_ (even for a SO dominant) enneagram 8 INTJ (this explains the anger & social ease). You _should_ be different to the 'average' INTJ (e5 or 6 SP fear/head type). It wouldn't surprise me if gut/body types, including "lusty" 8s, tend to have better developed Se than average. Some people say INTJs score high in Ti, in addition to Te (not sure the value of that statement or the functions tests that indicate such -- I score high in both Te + Ti). I think it's easy for INTJs with an enneagram 'kick' factor in their mix (e.g., e8 or sx) to appear more assertive than average and therefore ENTJish.


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

I really like your posts and style of expressing opinions. roud:

From a superficial PoV, your Se does seem stronger than inferior. Maybe it is just an impression, but the vibe you give me is BadGirl_Action_SexualEnergy_Direct_NoNonsense_Practical. People tend to associate this vibe with ISTP (not saying you're necessarily one).

You're definitely a type with Se, though. 

I'm not going to ask many questions related to MBTI, because I feel like people have already touched on it. I'm going to ask about Socionics and Quadra values; INTJ and ENTJ are Gamma types, and ISTP a Beta type.

https://www.techhouse.org/socionics/beta.html

https://www.techhouse.org/socionics/gamma.html

Which of these two descriptions do you relate to the most? 
Btw there is something about you that screams Beta to me but I don't know to describe exactly what it is. Maybe it is that you seem concerned or focused on self-expression, and even your way of writing is unique and a personal trademark.


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## DeadOutside (Mar 2, 2018)

Ni doesn't organize, it's a perceptive function, the organizing function is Te


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## DeadOutside (Mar 2, 2018)

Winegums said:


> Further the psychic properties of Ni are one of the worst misconceptions in typology/functions. It is not Psychic, there's no Aha moment, No immaculate realizations like people seem to think. Ni is constantly pooling information, adding up the variables, adding up evidence, and filling in the blanks in the background of the mind. Once the picture/equation is complete it presents the finding to the person in a big mental lump. It's not a sudden thing or something that the person was unaware of, it's always a build up to the actual realization.
> 
> For example, Ni presents itself in conversations by completing what the other person is saying in your head before they're even finished. It likes to jump to conclusions once there's enough information that it feels it can fill in the rest of the blanks.


Thank you @Winegums


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## DeadOutside (Mar 2, 2018)

What about the possibility that you are INTJ by letters and ENTJ by functions? I know people on here are religiously worshipping function typology with all its silly flaws and theories that partially make little to no sense. What about the possiblity of you just being an INTJ with a relatively high libido and human understanding? Why do people always have to jump to fallacious conclusions and forget what MBTI was all about in the first place, you cannot type a behavior with functions, you can only ATTEMPT to do so with their thought processes


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## DeadOutside (Mar 2, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> Wild guess:
> 
> You are an INTJ who had developed her shadow functions really well you can be an ENTP every other day. They are the most introverted extrovert, i have heard.


now that's some fairytale bullshit lol


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## DeadOutside (Mar 2, 2018)

People just need to stop thinking in 16 boxes and be open to the idea that people might have "higher functions" that they are not "supposed" to have because function stacks aren't really necessarily all that accurate after all, they limit an individual and portray them as mentally ill if they exhibit behavior they are not "supposed" to exhibit, when really, it's not the person that is flawed, but the typology system.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Dare said:


> Ni can do several things (pattern recognition, filling in blanks, prediction and more). While I agree with your example as one example of how Ni works, the bolded is incorrect. Ni can yield 'aha moments' completely out of the blue. Although not frequently, I personally get random 'messages' delivered from my subconscious -- things I have not been actively thinking about at that time, sometimes things I've never thought about (new statement of fact, aha! Or random images or memories returned -- hinting at something which then leads me to the aha! realization). It's weird as hell but it happens. Perhaps not every INTJ experiences this but there is a reason people say that about Ni (although I wish people wouldn't refer to it as "psychic" -- messages delivered from subconscious processing only appear to come from nowhere or 'out there').


I think messages "coming out of nowhere," is far more (Ne), than (Ni). I can usually support myself well, and explain every connection I make from their focal points, unless it is unsolicited/random request, even if it isn't truthful, or accurate - although I couldn't give a detailed analysis about what's in between the said connections, without some time. I kind of agree with your analysis of Ni, too. My (Ni) is pretty accumulating, continuous flow, slow-build. Basically, if a specimen sat a puzzle in front of me, I would (condense) all the red pieces, leaving out all the other colors, assemble all the red pieces as they fit, then place the full red piece in a particular area of the table. This will then give an "insight" in how the rest of puzzle pieces of all distinct types of colors will come together; and which section and position they are. I probably wouldn't even waste time putting all the pieces together either; or even completing it. It a picture of an apple orchard. That's all I need to know. Lul. These red pieces will "present" themselves in flashes or hint themselves when they are triggered to so throughout the build of the picture; or fall completely dormant. But, nothing Ni gives me is random. Just a result of keen observation, stored/condensed matter/factual content (all the "red" pieces), in a rainbow mess, and regurgitation of how this all linked, and how this is going to continue to unfold (if staying on this particular picture), i.e., path. And this naturally transfers into daily events, scenarios, people, things, and the like. 

I suppose the "high social ease aspect" in myself comes from being able to read the energy of the environment and specimens in it; I know where to go, what to do, where to fit. Ni is reading everything. Se is in the mix, etc., etc., and a combo of SOC, I guess. All is fine. 

Which is perhaps why Ni is not particularly "aha! Exciting!" for myself, it is just what I do best. Especially since it's been present for decades; an innate part of my personality. It is like telling me about a latent trait I have had since birth, the novelty wearing with age and/or growth. But all Ni-doms experience it differently, I suppose. 



> @Catwalk fwiw you've always struck me as an _unusually socially gifted_ (even for a SO dominant) enneagram 8 INTJ (this explains the anger & social ease). You _should_ be different to the 'average' INTJ (e5 or 6 SP fear/head type). It wouldn't surprise me if gut/body types, including "lusty" 8s, tend to have better developed Se than average. Some people say INTJs score high in Ti, in addition to Te (not sure the value of that statement or the functions tests that indicate such -- I score high in both Te + Ti). I think it's easy for INTJs with an enneagram 'kick' factor in their mix (e.g., e8 or sx) to appear more assertive than average and therefore ENTJish.


You make good points. Thanks. I relate to some aspects of "lusty 8", too after reading a bit about it. Never heard of that before. It can come off as (SX-ish)/ENTJish, too, which is perhaps why I used to type of SX, but do not really relate to any of it the more I devolved into it.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

DeadOutside said:


> What about the possibility that you are INTJ by letters and ENTJ by functions? I know people on here are religiously worshipping function typology with all its silly flaws and theories that partially make little to no sense.


It is entirely possible. I realize (Post #1) is a list of stereotypes and generalizations; but I suppose in a general sense, generalization(s) are only bad if they are not useful. I don't think it is necessarily "fallacious" to say there a tendency for T types of F types to exhibit certain degrees of biases and/or preferences, which I suppose the most important is discerning which generalizations are useless and others not so (i.e., INTJs like science vs INTJ's _tend to be _less skilled in social-interactions); so an INTJ deviating from these generalizations may in fact call their type into question. It is entirely possible I am ENTJ by functions, or INTJ by the letters, and the like. I am not disputing a possibility as being possible lul. I am just looking for alternatives. Thanks for the input.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Aiwass said:


> I really like your posts and style of expressing opinions. roud:
> 
> From a superficial PoV, your Se does seem stronger than inferior. Maybe it is just an impression, but the vibe you give me is BadGirl_Action_SexualEnergy_Direct_NoNonsense_Practical. People tend to associate this vibe with ISTP (not saying you're necessarily one).
> 
> You're definitely a type with Se, though.


Thanks, lul. It is always interesting hearing another(s) POV. But, I do not necessarily disagree with this analysis. I am pretty open sexually, kind of disciplinary, lazily practical in a sense if it doesn't work, I have difficulties being interested, pretty direct verbally, which is paradoxically why I dislike/rarely fuss it out online - precisely because if I cannot be "direct" enough (in person so they can see me argue), why bother lol. I still paradoxically get 'aloof or dark' sometimes offline, but this usually comes from strong Ne, or high-scaled E, happy-types.



> I'm not going to ask many questions related to MBTI, because I feel like people have already touched on it. I'm going to ask about Socionics and Quadra values; INTJ and ENTJ are Gamma types, and ISTP a Beta type.
> 
> https://www.techhouse.org/socionics/beta.html
> 
> ...


I have never read the Beta descriptions; I usually just stuck with Gamma (ILI); although I relate to [ILI], some parts I always found a bit too... _space-y_? Lol. Noticed this too in the link:



> ILIs, unlike other gamma types, are not very driven to materialize their visions.


Which is probably _%100 false_ for me. Ideas must be able to be materialized; or at least hold that capacity. Everything behind my drive is making ideas and thinks only "thought about", happen. To be able to throw all my ideas out and utilize them manually until they exhaust. I do not even think about idea(s) I cannot utilize somewhere, somewhen - or at least without a capacity to be applicable and apply. 

I get pretty frustrated when specimens around me aren't materializing their vision(s) either; which isn't even necessarily my business.. which is usually a lot of talk about ideas, and things they wish to happen/do, but very slow/slugging, not working towards it, or not wishing to put anything into action.

But reading the beta description(s); I relate to a lot of what is being said; particularly these parts ::



> Betas types are deeply anagogical creatures by nature [...], they are naturally attentive to messages and deeper meanings in the world around them. Beta types seek to be the messengers of such insights [...], They are driven to seek worldviews and beliefs that are internally consistent [...]





> Rather than there being many possible ideologies and sets of principles, as might be perceived by alpha types, betas value and as such limiting possibilities; beta types' visionary qualities and principled worldviews are enmeshed together, and they have a somewhat narrow focus (though over time, the principles can change and adapt to the vision -- if not easily).


And these aspects of gamma,



> Gamma quadra types are characterized by independence and self-reliance [...], are inclined to evaluate information based on the reliability of its source. As such, they desire to have all the information themselves, so they can evaluate it independently. Like beta types, gamma types value, and possess a forward and large-scale vision of what they would like to accomplish.





> If gamma types are unable to feel like they are impactfully influencing or materializing these visions (more generally, accomplishing something), they can become frustrated and impatient, feeling that their very freedom is being impinged upon.


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## LA REINE (Nov 19, 2015)

I think you are me. Wtf. I identify with almost all the points you made. I have extroverted tendencies, but I do need alone time to unwind and process my thoughts in a quiet atmosphere. I am highly social in social settings because I refuse to be that quiet girl in the corner on her cell phone. I find it rude and almost disrespectful towards the host who invited me. They invited me because they wanted to socialize with me, not to watch me on my cell phone for hours. I do not like small talk but I will partake in it if necessary. I prefer more deep discussion, but if I'm around people who are not comfortable with it, I won't deem them stupid and hate them. I will adapt to my surroundings. I won't actively seek activities that will drain my energy but I will dabble it in from time to time because I do enjoy it. I say I like keeping to myself 70% of the time and being social 30% of the time. I do need that 70% because being around people and actively socializing is just mentally draining overall. It's more because of that reason that I'm forced to retreat rather than me hating to socialize. I happen to find people very entertaining and interesting. Everyone a crazy story and past that no one cares to hear about. I like probing, I like asking, and I am an extremely curious person.

I think you're just an extremely healthy version of an INTJ who has well developed weaker functions. When I was younger and more immature, I identified with the more stereotypically extreme version of the INTJ who thinks they're better than everyone else and hates humanity. One day I just grew up and decided that I am different and even though I may not care about a lot of things, I'm not going to choose to be negative and project that on others. I made my own effort to socialize, understand others who are different from me, and met a lot of great acquaintances & friends along the way who have taught me a lot both directly and indirectly. I learned to observe, imitate, and act what is most socially appropriate. However, I will never push my boundaries. I keep my core personality. I don't tolerate BS just to accommodate. I make sure I protect my identity and my wants and accommodate to others second. I believe that when you show effort to truly understand those who are different from you, they will do the same back. As blunt and honest as I am, no one ever takes offense or hates me for my opinions. I have learned how to be me in the most socially appropriate manner. I have learned to communicate my most logical thoughts and decisions where even the most emotional people can understand where I am coming from. I feel emotionally aware of myself and others. I still may be private, reserved, and "mysterious" about most of the personal stuff that goes on in my life, but that's just me. I am not going to be an open book to just everyone. I only truly open up to those close to me. Maybe others view INTJs as mysterious as others will probably share 20 personal things before we reluctantly share 1, if any. 

I am not perfect obviously. I can be extremely impatient and critical. I like my way of doing things in the end. I don't like to trust people openly or want a desire to make a billion friends. I only have 2 people in my life that I truly trust. I always tend to go back to hermit mode from time to time when I get exhausted. But this is life. At times, you just to be alone but other times, you learn to appreciate how much working together with other people can bring you so much success and growth.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

A learning to improve intj

:standing_applause:

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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

Catwalk said:


> Thanks, lul. It is always interesting hearing another(s) POV. But, I do not necessarily disagree with this analysis. I am pretty open sexually, kind of disciplinary, lazily practical in a sense if it doesn't work, I have difficulties being interested, pretty direct verbally, which is paradoxically why I dislike/rarely fuss it out online - precisely because if I cannot be "direct" enough (in person so they can see me argue), why bother lol. I still paradoxically get 'aloof or dark' sometimes offline, but this usually comes from strong Ne, or high-scaled E, happy-types.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey sorry for taking so long to answer.

I've come to the conclusion that if you don't relate in any way to struggling to put your visions into practice, you are probably not a Socionics ILI (because ILIs suck at Se)

To be clear: in Socionics, taking concrete action is more related to Se than anything else.
Socionics Information Elements: Se

_"Extroverted sensing is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with *direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact*."_

In Socionics, both ILI and IEI are types with weak Se and may come across as lethargic/slow to types with stronger Se.
There is a big debate within typology communities on whether we should treat MBTI and Socionics as the same thing, but it is clear to me that many MBTI INTJ descriptions are different from Socionics ILI descriptions. The MBTI puts a lot of emphasis on the INTJ's ability to act and achieve, and Socionics describes the ILI as an abstract-minded "slow" intellectual. This is why I think many people who are typed as INTJ on MBTI may be something else in Socionics (this may be your case).

I think you mentioned in the first page that you can understand the INFJ's thought process. I found this interesting because in Socionics, all the Beta types (SLE, LSI, IEI and EIE) share the same functions and can understand each other's thought process very well. All Beta STs (Ti-Se and Se-Ti) in Socionics act somehow as "guardians" to the Beta NFs (Ni-Fe and Fe-Ni) spiritual values. I love this description of the EIE/LSI duality. Do you feel you relate to it on some level? Duality Descriptions by Meged and Ovcharov - Wikisocion


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Aiwass said:


> In Socionics, both ILI and IEI are types with weak Se and may come across as lethargic/slow to types with stronger Se.
> There is a big debate within typology communities on whether we should treat MBTI and Socionics as the same thing, but it is clear to me that many MBTI INTJ descriptions are different from Socionics ILI descriptions. The MBTI puts a lot of emphasis on the INTJ's ability to act and achieve, and Socionics describes the ILI as an abstract-minded "slow" intellectual. This is why I think many people who are typed as INTJ on MBTI may be something else in Socionics (this may be your case).
> 
> I think you mentioned in the first page that you can understand the INFJ's thought process. I found this interesting because in Socionics, all the Beta types (SLE, LSI, IEI and EIE) share the same functions and can understand each other's thought process very well. All Beta STs (Ti-Se and Se-Ti) in Socionics act somehow as "guardians" to the Beta NFs (Ni-Fe and Fe-Ni) spiritual values. I love this description of the EIE/LSI duality. Do you feel you relate to it on some level? Duality Descriptions by Meged and Ovcharov - Wikisocion


I can relate to some aspect(s) of the duality just not the 'traditional' - unchanging aspect; but compared to my (NFs), I handle situations much better. They get really defeated, doubt themselves a lot - which drives me insane. I think (NFs) get rattled a bit easier, for introverted Beta NF's once they are rattled, they get stuck. For extroverted NF-types, they get amped up, antsy, anxious, excited, scattered, loss focus of things, go crazy. For the most part, I stay focused - or at least, hide my "chaos" much better. But, that has been my role. Bringing in the skill, and the chill. They really get scrambled. I usually just make them ease-up or something. Relax. I am just a "_get it over with_" kind of specimen, I suppose. It may be uncomfortable, but the benefit is better. Get it done, claim your stuff, get out. Y'know, fuck it. Don't complain. Tough it out. It's only for 10 minutes kind of thing. If the (NF) cannot handle it, I will do it. All the hard/difficult decisions, tasks, and stuff just naturally falls on myself. I am OK with it. I do not really trust many others with difficult decisions, etc., anyhow. Who is better to make a decision on something than me? I know what I am doing; and if I do not, I guess we will be here awhile teaching me how. I am basically good at doing what everyone hates to do.

I agree with some aspects of the guardian bit, as well. And it is not even that (such) things do not get to me. It is just I can handle it; or absorb it? High neurotic INTJ's tend to freak out with emotionally crazy people. I do not. I just absorb whatever they throw at me, and it disappears into space somewhere. It never feel(s) like it touches me personally. Like there is shell there and it bounces right off. Some crying woman isn't going to run me away from what I am here to do. I just say give me more. Which I suppose is where I "understand" Fe-behaviors/reasoning.

In such a way. It takes a lot for me to crack. A lot for me to feel personally-threatened. It takes a lot to hurt my feelings. A lot to break me down. A lot to really "shake me up". If an obstacle, person, scenario, problem, conflict, is punching at me, I say punch harder. Lol. The only thing that breaks me down is myself. I am my worst enemy - I destroy myself from inside out. I put too much stress on myself (and not call it stress), internalize it, then blow-up later after being feast on and not even aware I were being eaten in the first place.

I suppose there is the protective aspect in myself as well, which I think comes from being a "healthy" type 8 integrating into a type 2. Yes, I will protect the (NFs, the fallen, the weakening, the scared, the defenseless), if I can. I to be of utility, assist, get all the stuck people unstuck. To help them any way I can, because it is no sweat off my back. In the duality, this touches on "_not being able to assess people capabilities_" well, rather I can certainly push them too hard, when they just are not capable. I think everyone can do it. Everyone can survive. I suppose I see great potentiality in Beta (NFs). Ni is high-active, seeing potential in almost everything. I end up pushing them too hard. Like, through a wall. I am impatient, and do not give up on them. Sometimes I want to kill them. It is a love - hate dynamic. I just want these specimen(s) get themselves together or get out of my face/die off. So I do not have to look at them anymore. Because they can be pretty irritating to look at it. It distracts my focus in whatever. If you are not going to try, you do not belong here. I really love those little guys. I will destroy anyone that screws with the little guy.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

@Aiwass could it be that MBTI focuses on INTJs being active so much because it's written from the perspective of an INFP (Isabell Briggs-Myers)? This just occurred to me when I read your post because INFPs and INTPs tend to think I have boundless energy and initiative compared to them.

Another factor is probably cultural differences and the cult of extraversion in the USA. You hardly find that in Europe, with the exception of the UK where group gatherings are the norm as opposed to 1:1. Even in Spain, the introverts are just as extremely introverted as the extroverts are noisy. Seeing as socionics is from Eastern Europe, it probably describes introverts who grew up in a society where introversion isn't seen as an illness. A lot of American introverts are probably outwardly far more adapted to the crazy lifestyle over there and many will find it difficult to see themselves as normal. So someone interviewing introverts would probably only learn about a tiny percentage of their inner world/ what they would be like if it was acceptable, because they simply won't share that information because of the stigma.
I've found that socionics describes all my European friends a lot better than MBTI does. 

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## Stockholmaren (May 25, 2016)

Catwalk said:


> What is a posed alternative type?


According to my very own, very lame personality definer you are:

*C*urious
*A*mbitious
*T*asty
*W*eird
*A*rtistic
*L*ol
*K*aput

Is that accurate?


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Good pickup lines bro. Applause...

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## Stockholmaren (May 25, 2016)

contradictionary said:


> Good pickup lines bro. Applause...
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


I appreciate your commentary, but this thread is not about me. It's about:

*C*ool
*A*mazing
*T*alented
*W*onderful
*A*wesome
*L*ovable
*K* is really difficult, got any suggestions?


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Killing me softly intuitively

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## UberY0shi (Nov 24, 2016)

Stockholmaren said:


> I appreciate your commentary, but this thread is not about me. It's about:
> 
> *C*ool
> *A*mazing
> ...


Kittens


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## Stockholmaren (May 25, 2016)

contradictionary said:


> Killing me softly intuitively
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


She is a killer alright.


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