# judging vs perceiving, toss it vs stash it



## samyets (Jun 21, 2020)

My father is very messy and keeps lots of objects in his living area.
I'm very tidy and I try to keep my living area as empty as possible.
I don't even decorate. It's for the sake of trying to stay mentally organized.
My father is a hoarder and extremely messy. Does this mean he's naturally very mentally organized?
I try to toss as many things as possible out of my living area, whereas he keeps junk that's very unlikely to be useful.
I was rated as an INTj by a Socionics test, meaning I'm an INTP in MBTI, is this correct?
My father once took an MBTI test and was xxxP, so it doesn't make sense why I, who has an opposite attitude toward clutter, would also be a P.
Also, I like to do stuff right away, another J trait, whereas my father is always late.
My father likes cheap stuff that's likely to break, whereas I like expensive stuff that lasts.
Who is the perceiver and who is the judger here, the mentally organized vs mentally disorganized?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Perhaps being a neat freak vs clutterbug is more complicated than four cognitive functions and whether one is a judger or perceiver? 

I'm somewhere in between the two extremes. I don't like filth or bugs, critters, or major clutter, so I maintain that level of cleanliness, but I'm not always so good about regular dusting, folding clothes, or putting everything exactly where they came from, so things are not perfectly neat, but you can see the floors in my apartment I don't keep a sink full of dishes, and when the trash is full, it goes out. 

No hoarding. No nastiness, no bugs, no critters, no trash. I have boundaries. I've kept some things, I've thrown out others.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

samyets said:


> My father is very messy and keeps lots of objects in his living area.
> I'm very tidy and I try to keep my living area as empty as possible.
> I don't even decorate. It's for the sake of trying to stay mentally organized.
> My father is a hoarder and extremely messy. Does this mean he's naturally very mentally organized?
> ...


Te is external, there is a need to have control over their external environment in order to feel internal control.
So I'd say it points more towards you being J.
Socionics and MBTI are different systems not a direct apples to apples translation but your concept is correct.

It's hard to say which types belong to "quality" vs "quanity" but to me both are more of a S-trait. I'd rather have a few bad ass things than a bunch of things of less value. I've always attributed Se the type most concerned with material items. So that'd be Se-dom/aux.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

You need to examine the reasons _why_ you and your father are the way you are. For example, a mature Perceiver could very well have the habits you have _due to_ life experience with unsatisfactory outcomes of messiness. But Myers-Briggs is intended to represent one's core preferences, not the coping strategies one adopts to deal with the results of indulging those preferences...so such consciously adopted organizational habits wouldn't be represented by one's type.

Also, if your father is seriously a hoarder, that's more of a psychological dysfunction than a cognitive preference, so it can't exactly be related to Myers-Briggs typology (which does not explain mental disorders and such).


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

What the MBTI measures under P/J really has nothing to do with perceiving and judging. Changing one's habits vs the rest is extraversion vs introversion.

Being more or less introverted = being more or less a control freak. The introverted is more willing to keep everything in its dedicated, expected place. 

However that doesn't mean to be tidy and clean, or to keep vs throw things. Some control freaks might as well be poop hoarders. It all depends on what you try to achieve and or repeat/confirm. Similarly the extraverted can hoard or be minimalist. Hoarding vs throwing might boil down to F/T instead. Sentimentalism, nostalgia, it's harder to let things go as a feeler. A thinker might as well just keep everything because it can still be useful. Then comes personal traumas.. poverty, the fear of bankruptcy, some people have lost everything once and have to deal psychologically with it.

As an extravert, then supposedly scoring P on stupid MBTIs, I tend to be minimalist as a way to prevent sentimentalism and reduce the amount of things I don't want to deal with later. The less I have the less organization matters.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

IDontThinkSo said:


> What the MBTI measures under P/J really has nothing to do with perceiving and judging. Changing one's habits vs the rest is extraversion vs introversion.
> 
> Being more or less introverted = being more or less a control freak. The introverted is more willing to keep everything in its dedicated, expected place.


So, I take it you've not known many ExTJs...


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Elistra said:


> So, I take it you've not known many ExTJs...


Yes you're so rare and special.


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## Shrodingers drink (Nov 30, 2018)

I much prefer the notion of Judging and perceiving being tied to you dominant function, All types are conscientious about something, The MBTI PvsJ is useless other than for picking Si types.


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## shotgunfingers (May 6, 2020)

Shrodingers drink said:


> I much prefer the notion of Judging and perceiving being tied to you dominant function, All types are conscientious about something, The MBTI PvsJ is useless other than for picking Si types.


Hmm. Under socionics I'd be ILI. I'm not organized in my head imo as I just pull thoughts from the void, in the physical world I tolerate the mess until it starts affecting me negatively and then I clean up.. over time it gets messy again and the cycle repeats. Socionics Ti+ with Ne creative is something I did not relate to even tho I test INTP in MBTI.

The way I know with relative certainty that I'm ILI is Si role, Fe PolR, Fi hidden Agenda and Se seeking tendencies. It took a while to figure out.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Yes you're so rare and special.


Your attempt at snark aside, my point is that both ESTJ and ENTJ conclusively demonstrate that it is quite possible to be both an extrovert and a control freak.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Elistra said:


> Your attempt at snark aside, my point is that both ESTJ and ENTJ conclusively demonstrate that it is quite possible to be both an extrovert and a control freak.


Provided only P measures extraversion in the MBTI and E is a complete joke, not really.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Provided only P measures extraversion in the MBTI and E is a complete joke, not really.


How fortunate it is then, that P doesn't measure extraversion and that E isn't a joke. Lol.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Elistra said:


> How fortunate it is then, that P doesn't measure extraversion and that E isn't a joke. Lol.


Bias confirmation is very annoying especially when it exists to prove itself nonexistent. I can't help the helpless.


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## newtoniuman (Aug 15, 2020)

i dont get what the point of this thread is
you either learn someone is a P or J through their approach in strategy games or in life.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Bias confirmation is very annoying especially when it exists to prove itself nonexistent. I can't help the helpless.


Lol... this is almost funny. It's late and I can't sleep, so what the hell, I'll help you out here. 

In MBTI extroverts, Js are people who lead with a Judging function, while Ps are people who lead with a Perceiving function. Sort of like this:

*ENTJ*
Extroverted Thinking *(Judging function leads and person is extroverted, so type in MBTI is considered J)*
Introverted Intuition
Extroverted Sensing
Introverted Feeling

*ESFJ*
Extroverted Feeling *(Judging function leads and person is extroverted, so type in MBTI is considered J)*
Introverted Sensing
Extroverted Intuition
Introverted Thinking

*ESFP*
Extroverted Sensing *(Perceiving function leads and person is extroverted, so type in MBTI is considered P)*
Introverted Feeling
Extroverted Thinking
Introverted Intuition

*ENTP*
Extroverted Intuition *(Perceiving function leads and person is extroverted, so type in MBTI is considered P)*
Introverted Thinking
Extroverted Feeling
Introverted Sensing

However, in MBTI, the J/P tags on introverts are reversed. That is, MBTI introverts who lead with a Perceiving function are considered J type, while MBTI introverts who lead with a Judging function are considered P type. Examples:

*INTJ*
Introverted Intuition *(Perceiving function leads and person is introverted, so type in MBTI is considered J)*
Extroverted Thinking
Introverted Feeling
Extroverted Sensing

*INFJ*
Introverted Intuition *(Perceiving function leads and person is introverted, so type in MBTI is considered J)*
Extroverted Feeling
Introverted Thinking
Extroverted Sensing

*INTP*
Introverted Thinking *(Judging function leads and person is introverted, so MBTI type is considered P)*
Extroverted Intuition
Introverted Sensing
Extroverted Feeling

*ISFP*
Introverted Feeling *(Judging function leads and person is introverted, so MBTI type is considered P)*
Extroverted Sensing
Introverted Intuition
Extroverted Thinking

Yes, this is an inconsistency in the system, and it might bother you, but it doesn't mean that extroversion is meaningless. (Extroversion describes the attitude of half the cognitive functions, think about that.) It also doesn't mean that the J/P distinction has nothing to it at all, or that introverts are somehow inherently more prone to control freakery than Js. Yes, INTJs and ISTJs can be hell on wheels in that department (especially if they are unhealthy), but ENTJs and ESTJ are no better, especially if unhealthy. And we also tend to be louder about it... for better, or for worse.

In Socionics, the J/P tags on Introverts and Extroverts are consistent throughout their system. (That is, most people who would be INFPs in MBTI end up INFjs, most who would be ISTPs in MBTI end up ISTjs, and so on.) If you insist on complete J/P consistency throughout, perhaps Socionics would be more to your liking than MBTI.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

@Elistra That isn't my point at all. Jung defined E/I as an attitude of adaptation vs reinforcement of ideas and the only things that measures it in the MBTI are questions asked in the P/J axis without making it able to determine if P or J leads a personality since it conflates J and I, P and E.

Questions such as "Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information." typically conflates introversion with judgment. Introversion leads to cherry pick informations that reinforce an idea, so new divergent informations are missed. Judging skips all new informations. "I like to have things decided" measures judgment, whereas "I like to stick to my shedule" measures introversion, as it skips the unexpected.

So-called perceiving questions are even more biased towards extraversion and it's rare that it measures perception. Typical questions revolve around being bored by the expected and open to adjusting one's ideas.

The conflation is due to how both introversion and judgement lead to take important informations into account, whereas both perception and extraversion lead to have troubles not revising their judgment.

Except that an introverted perceiver would revise it to add material to their belief, and an extraverted judger wouldn't skip important informations just to focus on those which reinforce their belief.

Hence typically MBTI users who score J are introverts and Ps are extraverts. As for E/I it is fairly easy to debunk how "I like to be with people" has nothing to do with "I don't like when the world is as I expect it to be". Many introverts like to be with people specifically because it reinforces their expectations and allow more control over their environment. The full list of supposed symptoms is really a joke. "I like to think before I act", that's typically perception, since judgment is the very drive to decide. Whereas "I don't like to be stimulated" could equally be N or J. Typically anything that can get in the way of sensing so pretty much any function that would dominate it, out of antagonism or not.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

IDontThinkSo said:


> @Elistra That isn't my point at all. Jung defined E/I as an attitude of adaptation vs reinforcement of ideas and the only things that measures it in the MBTI are questions asked in the P/J axis without making it able to determine if P or J leads a personality since it conflates J and I, P and E.
> 
> Questions such as "Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information." typically conflates introversion with judgment. Introversion leads to cherry pick informations that reinforce an idea, so new divergent informations are missed. Judging skips all new informations. "I like to have things decided" measures judgment, whereas "I like to stick to my shedule" measures introversion, as it skips the unexpected.
> 
> ...


Hmm. I think you might be conflating your personal experiences (do you identify as an introvert?) with that of introversion as an absolute, objective quality.

Think of the INTP, for instance. Definitely introverted, but is infamous (especially when young or unhealthy) for seeking out more information to the point where they get bogged down in analysis paralysis. And re: sticking to schedules, ESTJs and ESFJs are known for loving to make schedules, but they are extraverted, not introverted.

I will agree with you that some of the questions are silly, because inherent biases of self-perception can get in the way of accurate responses at times.

Take the one you brought up -- "I like to think before I act."

The fact is, most people -- whether it is the most impulsive ESTP you've ever met, or a particular ISTJ who is so anal-retentive you wonder if he has OCD -- tend to see themselves as doing a necessary and appropriate amount of thinking before acting, neither more than is called for, nor less than they should. Lol.

Question items such as, "People often tell me I am reckless." or "I am often accused of overthinking things." would probably be better suited to get to the variable they are trying to measure. Now, this brings its own problems -- for everyone, even the INFP, there comes a point in life where you finally get tired of the bitching, moaning, and negativity of people who just don't like your personality, and you cut them off. So, you end up with a self-selection bias going on, re: companions. 

That is, eventually the ESTP in question is going to get sick and tired of people complaining about his impulsivity, or as he calls them, "Those prissy, fun-sucking, whiny little bitches." and will cut those people off from his social circle. 

Likewise, the ISTJ in question will ditch the people who do not appreciate his planfulness, or as he might call them, those "Lazy, sloppy losers who just don't care about anything that matters."

At that point, they will stop "often" hearing negativity about however they are, because they have (rightly, in my view) ditched the whiners, rather than trying to force friendships with people who just don't like them, and who they don't like or enjoy the company of, either.


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## shotgunfingers (May 6, 2020)

lel I'm messy and ISTJ (LSI in Socionics). My place tends to mushroom into a giant mess by Saturday and then I just clean up. I like cleaning up as it relaxes me (because the mess bothers me a lot). I'm conscientious AF otherwise and can get irritated when other ppl do halfassed work or don't seem to give a damn about their output. Otherwise I'm not all that systematic or planned out and quite flexible when dealing with problems that come up. No plan survives contact with the enemy, that is a certainty. I almost always OVERTHINK before acting tho and I'm CAREFUL / don't tend to do stupid things. Calculated risks tbh and safety > dumb risky shit. Typical type 6. I'm not the biggest fan of surprises.. am usually mentally prepared for anything and I pride myself with my problem solving abilites. I could still be MBTI ISTP, but I doubt it as I don't do risky behaviour... even tho I qualify for ISTP via EricB's melancholy-Sanguine temperament. Can't relate to keirsey's ISTP Artisan tbh.

...however I don't think of myself as a "social guardian", I'm more likley to raise hell, plow through other ppl's opinions and feelings and uproot everything around me in an attempt to forcibly push what I want into reality or to follow my reason for being. Single minded obstinate pursuit of what I want. To push and overcome, otherwise I feel dead inside.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Elistra said:


> Hmm. I think you might be conflating your personal experiences (do you identify as an introvert?) with that of introversion as an absolute, objective quality.
> 
> Think of the INTP, for instance. Definitely introverted, but is infamous (especially when young or unhealthy) for seeking out more information to the point where they get bogged down in analysis paralysis. And re: sticking to schedules, ESTJs and ESFJs are known for loving to make schedules, but they are extraverted, not introverted.


INTPs in the MBTI are, first of all, people scoring P. Since most P questions are testing extraversion, whereas most Introv questions don't test introversion, but some J questions do, it is likely that those individuals are quite driven by extraversion and eventually perception as well. So it is by no means odd that they would be driven to confront themselves to unexpected facts or questions ad nauseam.

Someone scoring INTP in the MBTI is exactly what they scored, the question is, does it measure what it claims to? If they checked all the socially shy or undriven boxes, they are socially shy or undriven. Yet being so is not a proof of introversion. We have to go back to the premises of what introversion is, then confront our deductions. From what Jung observed (not deduced) the most direct consequence of introversion is to refuse to be in a situation where one's habits of thinking are being challenged. This could lead somebody to find that security by surrounding themselves with predictable and controlable people. Or totally avoid them, depending on one's history of social success.

Extraversion is the same. More than anyone an "NE" person should be bored the most by predictability, and yet most people are predictable clichés. So what would drive such a personality to socialize instead of doing more creative activities... It's just as you suggested after, and to develop it further, socializing is simply not a function of the human mind, it just happens that a mind can find just so many reasons to do so because otherwise there wouldn't be any human species or at the very least such a range of human personalities.

Similarly, ESJs are first of all people scoring J. They stick to their schedules out of introversion (and also possibly sensing), which is tested under the J label if they checked the corresponding boxes. Scoring E doesn't make someone an extravert but socially driven for whatever reason.

Now to the root of the problem: despite how he defined extraversion, Jung believed that we only change our mind when we desire sexually (as a drive to reproduce) the object of our thought. And since reproduction is self propagation by assimilation of one's environment, in a paradox his reasoning infers that turning one's environment into oneself was the underlying cause for the psychological means to give up on one's beliefs and be curious about reality as it is.

From this standpoint it is not surprising that someone who's aggressively trying to change the world so that it matches one's expectations would score extraverted (and have great com skills) however this is an absolute contradiction.


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