# Your Real Opposite Is Not Your Four Letter Opposite



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

If I were to say my four letter opposite is ENTJ, this would be true, and often the idea of the domineering, social climbing or excessively goal-centered ENTJ is off-putting to me; but I still can understand what they're saying, if that makes any sense. When ENTJs talk or write, I still comprehend where they're coming from, even if I don't like what they're saying.

The people who irritate my thinking the most, IF they go in depth, are INTPs. There are INTPs I get along with just fine, I'm not complaining about INTPs as a type, but they are most likely to write essays that are torturous for me to try to read; Ti/Ne is my real opposite, not Te/Ni.

Who knows what I mean by this? While you may not appreciate the way your four-letter opposite uses the same functions, at least you understand where they're coming from, while the person who actually uses the opposing functions is the confusing one, or who makes your mind bend in an unpleasant or what you see as an unnecessary way.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

fourtines said:


> If I were to say my four letter opposite is ENTJ, this would be true, and often the idea of the domineering, social climbing or excessively goal-centered ENTJ is off-putting to me; but I still can understand what they're saying, if that makes any sense. When ENTJs talk or write, I still comprehend where they're coming from, even if I don't like what they're saying.
> 
> The people who irritate my thinking the most, IF they go in depth, are INTPs. There are INTPs I get along with just fine, I'm not complaining about INTPs as a type, but they are most likely to write essays that are torturous for me to try to read; Ti/Ne is my real opposite, not Te/Ni.


*Eeeeep* 

I generally agree with you. I get ESFJ's pretty well, even if I disagree with their conclusions.

If your middle two functions are reversed but none other, though, that basically suggests a complete flip in perceiving and processing style since the J/P factor is opposite.

Oh yeah, for the record... it's funny, but ever since I broke my rigid Ti streak in my 20's (where I'd belabor points and write in excruciating detail to foolproof my argument), other INTPs who do that all the time now piss me off too.


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## mental blockstack (Dec 15, 2011)

Ti-Ne also just has a default way of packing point upon point into one bunch of text, and if the person is very introverted, they might still be neglecting their audience other than themselves. Though, Ni-Te also does that, but in a different fashion.


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## surgery (Apr 16, 2010)

I think I know where you're coming from with this. Supposedly, from a functional standpoint Fi and Te have "more in common" than say Fi and Fe because the former pair exists on the same spectrum, where as the latter are on two different operation spectrums. I've heard members on this site explain how IFPs and ETJs tend to take "big leaps" in their lines of thinking, where as those on the Fe-Ti spectrum tend to focus more on consistency, ie. Fe is an ethical standard that applies to everyone while Ti wants to follow a consistent line of reasoning.

Also, technically my "opposite" should be ESTP since, they are "Sensate Perception" types with secondary Judgment. INFPs and ESTJs, as different as they may seem, are still both Judgment types with auxiliary Perception.

Ultimately, though, how much of this really matters? ESTJs and ESTPs are both pretty draining and frustrating from my perspective, so whatev.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Yes. I hope more people _actually_ listen to this. 

I see myself in the NTJ's (and ESFP's) more often than I see myself in the STP's. Their Ti+Fe judgement is quite alien to me. 

This is why I do not like Keirsey's temperaments at all; I wish the forum was set up in groups of similar cognitive processes, thus giving us a chance to learn off one another. Strengthening our weak points, and all that.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

Indeed, I have an easier time following ISTJs sometimes than INFJs. ^_^ Ni is a mystery to me. So ENFJs, INFJs, INTJs, and ENTJs can be hard for me to relate to. Plus Fe can throw me off balance at times. It doesn't bother me at all as much as Ni can, though. It's not even like I have trouble getting along with Ni-users. But sometimes I just get lost trying to understand their thought process. 

This is why I dislike the Keirsey temperaments. I have more in common with ENTPs and INTPs, even, than I do with certain "fellow NFs", like ENFJs and INFJs.

EDIT: Not to mention, ESTPs can really throw me off. I think it is sometimes easier for me to interact with dominant Ni users than those who have it as their inferior function. ESFPs I can hang with (shared Fi, I suppose), but I can have a rather hard time tracking the thoughts of an ESTP.


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## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

firedell said:


> Yes. I hope more people _actually_ listen to this.
> 
> I see myself in the NTJ's (and ESFP's) more often than I see myself in the STP's. Their Ti+Fe judgement is quite alien to me.
> 
> This is why I do not like Keirsey's temperaments at all; I wish the forum was set up in groups of similar cognitive processes, thus giving us a chance to learn off one another. Strengthening our weak points, and all that.


Yeah, I've had similar experiences with recognizing myself in ISFPs (ESFPs too, but more so in the sense that we arrive at all the same conclusions/ways of perceiving something) more than NTPs or SFJs.

I used to ponder how MBTI would be if the temperaments were SiTi (NTP/SFJ), SiFi (NFP/STJ), NiTi (STP/NFJ) and NiFi (SFP/NTJ).
Or their respective extroverted function groupings.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

@firedell
haha so true! XD
I have tried to reason with INTPs online a couple of time and it didn't go very well.
One closed thread and me having to ignore list both due to me feeling my reality was threatened. :-/

I have one good INTP friend, but the face to face interaction can smooth over much,
even though the mood can get a bit tense sometimes.
Still face to face I can detect it early enough to stop whatever I'm doing to offend 
and move to some neutral area like play and games.

Online it is often hit or miss and when you miss you miss big and since you
type in sometimes a paragraph a time, by the time you realice that things have moved in the wrong direction
a wall of text assulting the very fabric of reality you depend on confront in a very hostile manner.


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## irulee (Jun 25, 2012)

I was thinking about that for a while now, since I started getting more interested in cognitive functions. About what our opposites truly are. I came to the same conclusion; _my _opposite is an ESTP. But the way I see it is:

Opposites:
ESTJ - MBTI
ESTP - Jungian Cognitive Function

-One uses different methods with the same attitude (Introverted judgement and extraverted data collecting)
-The other uses the same functions, but is mirrored ( Fi --> Te and Si --> Ne)

I've met both types, my cousin (ESTP) and uncle (ESTJ). They both drain me, in their own way. So I guess it's opposite if it's the first 3 letters, the J/P thing wouldn't make a difference as much as the first 3 _*together *_.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

YES! I can get where ESTPs/ESFPs are coming from well enough, even though it often doesn't really settle well with me, or doesn't even settle at all with me, but there's something about me and ISFJs that tend to rub each other the wrong way BIG TIME (not as individuals, but we tend to very often misread each other's rational intentions or just view each other's reasoning as an offense almost at the worst). Some of them are so "normal" in their views (so they claim) that it's almost hard for me to take - it's like that exact thing I 100% don't want to be - I cannot really open up personally to them easily about my views and interests, it's often taken as an invasion and vice-versa - it's almost like we pretty much have to like each other from first impressions in order to really have anything to do with each other at all (so, like similar personas). I find ISTJs more variable - through judgment, we get along better, although some of those uber "realist" (even though their realism is sort of an ideal more than just them being empirical, Se style) ones can be tough to take for me as well. Often, as soon as I give an intuitive impression, their response is like "whatever." It's not really even Si that I think bugs me about them (other than reasoning through it, which I'm rough at), but inferior Ne - sort of these overly insecure, ready-to-shoot anything that sounds too much like a metaphysical breakthrough of speculation down with a more "down-to-earth" side comment that makes you feel like you just said something inappropriate. Really though, the interaction style of ISTJS really helps me with those though.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Eh, I am not sure how much this works for me... ESFJ logic is completely alien and so is Fe logic in general. I understand Fi logic so much better, although I inherently have a hard time accepting Te logic for the same reason as Fi might have issues understanding Fe. I just Fi and Ti so much I have a hard time understanding both Te and Fe, although Fe is harder than Te to me. 

I can often see where Te types are coming from but I just want to ram my feet into the floor and kick myself through time and space because arguing with some immature Te types is like arguing with a brick wall. Same applies to Fi dom types though, with poorly developed Fi and Pe. 

Generally speaking, I think I prefer Ne-Si types as well than Se-Ni.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Eh, I am not sure how much this works for me... ESFJ logic is completely alien and so is Fe logic in general. I understand Fi logic so much better, although I inherently have a hard time accepting Te logic for the same reason as Fi might have issues understanding Fe. I just Fi and Ti so much I have a hard time understanding both Te and Fe, although Fe is harder than Te to me.
> 
> I can often see where Te types are coming from but I just want to ram my feet into the floor and kick myself through time and space because arguing with some immature Te types is like arguing with a brick wall. Same applies to Fi dom types though, with poorly developed Fi and Pe.
> 
> Generally speaking, I think I prefer Ne-Si types as well than Se-Ni.


Well, this is funny. My INTP brother and I have strangely similar thought patterns. I am able to listen to what he says and enjoy the interesting things he brings to light. I can appreciate his thought systems for what they are. We still clash in that I focus on value, and he doesn't really get that, and I admit that sometimes I don't understand how he can put so much weight into his ways of thinking. Yet often we love discussing things together. 

Also, something I've noticed about INTPs is that even though I lead with Ne, INTPs seem to bring to light different concepts and ideas that I just love thinking about (at least, that's how it goes with my brother and I in conversation). Conversation becomes easier because I can bounce off the different things they bring up. 

Although I can see how for me Ti or Te wouldn't be as much of a problem. It's Se and Si that throw me off, really. 

So for whatever when I think of my own little imagined temperaments, INTPs and ENFPs end up thrown in together.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Julia Bell said:


> Well, this is funny. My INTP brother and I have strangely similar thought patterns. I am able to listen to what he says and enjoy the interesting things he brings to light. I can appreciate his thought systems for what they are. We still clash in that I focus on value, and he doesn't really get that, and I admit that sometimes I don't understand how he can put so much weight into his ways of thinking. Yet often we love discussing things together.
> 
> Also, something I've noticed about INTPs is that even though I lead with Ne, INTPs seem to bring to light different concepts and ideas that I just love thinking about (at least, that's how it goes with my brother and I in conversation). Conversation becomes easier because I can bounce off the different things they bring up.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I love ENFPs for that reason too  They think kind of the same but with a somewhat different perspective and as you say, Ne bouncing is great. I still insist on that the perceiving functions matter far more than judging for most of the part.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Then why do ESTJs scare me @[email protected]
ESTJs are the only people that I generally seem to have issues with.

Opposites also depends on how you mean.

FiSeNiTe (ISFP)
and
TeNiSeFi (ENTJ)
could be considered opposites, tho I prefer to call them reversed (aka. ENTJ is ISFP in reverse)

same goes for
FiSeNiTe (ISFP)
and
FeSiNeTi (ESFJ)
These are more synchronous opposites: F, S, N, T.

not to forget
FiSeNiTe (ISFP)
and
TiNeSiFe (INTP)
which are complete opposites.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

firedell said:


> Yes. I hope more people _actually_ listen to this.
> 
> I see myself in the NTJ's (and ESFP's) more often than I see myself in the STP's. Their Ti+Fe judgement is quite alien to me.
> 
> This is why I do not like Keirsey's temperaments at all; *I wish the forum was set up in groups of similar cognitive processes*, thus giving us a chance to learn off one another. Strengthening our weak points, and all that.


that would be so interesting. imagine how it would change the forums themselves, the variety it would add. as it is now, each sub-forum is kind of sterile really. it would be much more dynamic, and the "other sides" of each type would come out more readily.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

celticstained said:


> that would be so interesting. imagine how it would change the forums themselves, the variety it would add. as it is now, each sub-forum is kind of sterile really. it would be much more dynamic, and the "other sides" of each type would come out more readily.


I think it would be so much more educational, and there would more variety as you have said.

I think we have grown tired of the SJ, SP, NT, NF groupings. The people on the forum have changed from knowing little about cognitive functions, to a good proportion (ahem, sort of) knowing about them. Plus I believe anyone who falls into the unknown personalities, or mistypers might be able to understand the system better. 

I dream of that day.


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## datMBTIguy (Oct 31, 2012)

I've been thinking about this lately. ENFP is my four letter opposite but i like them quite a bit and understand them well especially on Fi terms. However my experience with INTPs isn't quite like yours. I find they tend to be painfully short and to the point. They always have an insightful opinion and rarely volunteer to explain it


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## ElectricHead (Jun 3, 2011)

Question for anyone...

So which is more opposite for an INFP (FiNeSiTe)?

ESTP, opposite functions and out of order (SeTiFeNi)?
or 
ENFJ, opposite functions in the same order of use(FeNiSeTi)?

(I'm not including introverted types here because being ISTP and INFP have the common introverted function which is less different to me than an E dom, although functionally, yes, we are very much different). 

I have known and liked ESTPs and ENFJs. Best friend growing up is ESTP and favorite coworker is ENFJ. 
There are some of these types that I have or would stay far away from. Some ENFJs tend to rub me the wrong way with their holier-than-thou attitude and smugness. The many *******, rough-ridin', military macho-men, insensitive, Se crazed ESTPs make me want to puke blood (no one here specifically). 

So my point is that I can't tell which type is more "opposite" of the two for me because I've met enough I've liked and disliked to not pigeon-hole them as much as more rare types in my life. Subjectively, I don't know. Objectively I'm guessing ENFJ. It's a weak guess though...as maybe the order of use matching my order of functional use would make ENFJ less opposite than someone who's functions are just completely out of whack with mine (ESTP).


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## QrivaN (Aug 3, 2012)

Yeah, I see what OP is saying, but I think you should flip the I/E too. Think about it...

ISTP: Ti-Se-Ni-Fe
INFP: Fi-Ne-Si-Te
While they are opposite, there is still a pattern: Ji-Pe-Pi-Je

If you flip the E/I of the type as well, you're completely lost. I get along with ESFJs okay I guess, but I feel like I have to be really careful around them a lot of the time, and don't really understand where they're coming from at all. I think it may be because our thought processes not only are completely different by nature (NT vs SF), but they happen in different orders too (PiJe vs JePi), so not only do I not understand their point, but I can't even attempt to follow their thought process because it's so foreign. I have some luck with ISFJs because, while I don't understand their point to their argument, I can still follow their process if they explain it; I just won't see why it matters.


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## QrivaN (Aug 3, 2012)

rejectedreality said:


> Question for anyone...
> 
> So which is more opposite for an INFP (FiNeSiTe)?
> 
> ...


I would say ESTP, for the reason you listed at the end. Though the functions are opposite, the order of preference is the same, and so you relate to each other better than someone who's order of preference is opposite of your's.


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## sinigang (May 5, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Fourtines types as SEI in socionics so ILE is not her conflictor but in fact her dual.


Well she has stated in several posts that ENTP's and INTP's irritate her. Thus, it would make sense that she is ESI. Otherwise it would be weird to be irritated by your dual.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

sinigang said:


> Well she has stated in several posts that ENTP's and INTP's irritate her. Thus, it would make sense that she is ESI. Otherwise it would be weird to be irritated by your dual.


But an MBTI INTP is not always a socionics INTj. I'm an INFj in socionics for example.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

LeaT said:


> But you are using MBTI labels when referring to type, not Jungian types.
> 
> And if you reverse this at the logic regarding Te dominant types, you find that an INFP thus becomes more like an unhealthy Te dominant type during stress. See, it's not about Ti and Fi, it's about Ti and Te.
> 
> I have a good ENFP friend for example. Never had that issue.


Well yeah, that's only because I'm on an MBTI forum. And well, it's pretty much based on the Jungian theory (It's just convenience in citing I guess).

Yeah my point is pretty much that it's really about Ti and Te. But I reckon, that the hypothesis you mentioned could be right in some sense, but I guess a relationship in theory wouldn't be about having each other deal with each other's stress mode. I would imagine negative Te of the INFP being only fueled by Ti. You need to open up their secondary Ne or primary Fi, to bring them back to health. An INTP would be able to use Ne, but only with Ti. Not raw Ne. or Ni or Fi or Fe. (Like their ideal matches seem to resolve with - ENFJs, ESFJs, INFJs, etc)

Having a good ENFP friend, doesn't really apply into MBTI theory. lol. If it means anything, the fact that I have parents suggests that the INTP-ESTJ relationship works. Since my dad's INTP and my mum's ESTJ.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

AverOblivious said:


> Having a good ENFP friend, doesn't really apply into MBTI theory. lol. If it means anything, the fact that I have parents suggests that the INTP-ESTJ relationship works. Since my dad's INTP and my mum's ESTJ.


Wasn't that my point all along, that it's less about type and more about people? I find enneagram to be a much bigger reason why I clash with some individuals than MBTI or even socionics.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Yea, I tend to have a bit of a rocky relationship to Fe types IRL - of all of them, I actually tend to get along the best with Fe doms in terms of feeling (no idea why, other than they're extremely objective, yet sincere with it, which is just interesting to me - you can always trust them to never be irrational or ridiculous with feeling - easy to make honest statements around, as long as they're not too negative) - I dunno, some of the aux/tert/inferior ones can be a little...clingy (like, have trouble adapting to new expressions of feeling out-of-someone, prolly an Fi type, so then, they might act more "fake" around you because they don't know how to handle it). Inferior Fe and I tend to have a good relationship, just because these ones tend to be truly genuine in their expressions (in a rather roughly adapted way - like unpredictable in their feeling responses and they keep them kind of subliminal as well), often the people you can talk about anything with without reservations, as long as it makes sense (and you can expect to get sincere evaluations from - easy to appeal to if you know how to win their favor) - I think I get along with these the best of all of the Fe/Ti types in general.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_JungyesMBTIno_: One interesting thing is, just as at times you found Ti-Pe users and Te-Pi users reaching the same conclusion through different means, so have I seen it to be the case with Fi doms. The parameters we use to reason are totally different in nature, but surprisingly our outlooks can be very similar. 



AverOblivious said:


> That's interesting how you believe that Te-Ti would cause clashes because of different perspectives or realms of thought.




I also have observed it in myself. In some cases, an Ni dominant can get along great with me, if the Te is somewhat kept in check. Truth is what I find annoying is when a Te-user doesn't listen to my reasoning because it's too different. It happens all the time. With a strong Ni though, they can be good at decoding my Ti, and vice versa. Some sort of introversion really is necessary for them to synthesize what I throw at them - if they just try to Te it mostly, it does not work.

So in this sense, I think Fi can at times be a really good companion to Ti users, since the Fi-user is still fundamentally a Ji type. They will no doubt find each others' reasoning strange, yet when they're not fixating on that and just sharing ideas, they may find their introversion lends them a good connection. It's happened between me and INFP before, and ditto with ISFP.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@_bearotter_

Conclusions people reach have nothing to do with individual functions (you can't figure this out this way). That's a huge mistake people make with identifying this stuff. Once again, people are trying to use confirmation bias on this stuff, and that doesn't work. It's not the conclusions that bother people (I mean, you can read the same conclusions in print, and they would be less likely to bother you, because you're not associating them with a particular person that you already have any ideas in mind about) - it's the way they do it that bothers you, which you can only realize through self-awareness. You can't make dogmatic assertions about "which types are good for each other," etc., because in actuality, this goes far beyond type - it usually has nothing to do with type, other than, of course, people with similar enough personas will gravitate to each other for understanding (so occasionally, type might have SLIGHT influence over this in extreme enough instances). I mean, you get people here saying "I'm so surprised, I actually get along with this type" while probably not even knowing what a real function manifestation is (I mean, duh, thinking and feeling alone contradict each other, because one is intelligible and one isn't (feeling isn't in the conceptual logic sense) - that's all you need to fundamentally know to be able to truly recognize functions - a lot of what you may be noticing in Fi doms that you can relate to would be coming from their thinking, not the feeling, since you seem to view feeling as "conceptual"). Even if these types work with the same archetypal content, one through thinking and one through feeling, you can't see archetypal content of someone's mind IRL anyway, so that wouldn't really make any difference in how these functions would "mesh."


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## nottie (Mar 2, 2011)

Yeah, I've always liked ISTJs and generally don't have an issue with understanding them. I have the impression that they're much steadier, but ultimately value the same types of things. 

ESTPs aren't terrible for me to understand, though I'm happy I never need to live with one again. However, most ESTPs I've met tend to be rather straightforward, which obviously makes understanding easier. 

I'd say EXFJ is most confusing for me.


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## sinigang (May 5, 2012)

LeaT said:


> But an MBTI INTP is not always a socionics INTj. I'm an INFj in socionics for example.


Yep. Don't worry, I based my typings off of her descriptions of those types and not purely on the 4 letters alone.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

LeaT said:


> Wasn't that my point all along, that it's less about type and more about people? I find enneagram to be a much bigger reason why I clash with some individuals than MBTI or even socionics.


... well yeah, but you also said INTPs and INFPs get along better than INTPs and ESTJs, by MBTI theory. Which I don't think MBTI theory agrees with. 



bearotter said:


> @_JungyesMBTIno_: One interesting thing is, just as at times you found Ti-Pe users and Te-Pi users reaching the same conclusion through different means, so have I seen it to be the case with Fi doms. The parameters we use to reason are totally different in nature, but surprisingly our outlooks can be very similar.
> 
> I also have observed it in myself. In some cases, an Ni dominant can get along great with me, if the Te is somewhat kept in check. Truth is what I find annoying is when a Te-user doesn't listen to my reasoning because it's too different. It happens all the time. With a strong Ni though, they can be good at decoding my Ti, and vice versa. Some sort of introversion really is necessary for them to synthesize what I throw at them - if they just try to Te it mostly, it does not work.
> 
> So in this sense, I think Fi can at times be a really good companion to Ti users, since the Fi-user is still fundamentally a Ji type. They will no doubt find each others' reasoning strange, yet when they're not fixating on that and just sharing ideas, they may find their introversion lends them a good connection. It's happened between me and INFP before, and ditto with ISFP.



Yeah I understand that. I wasn't saying Te-Ti couldn't clash, I was idealizing this as a more 'minimal conflict' type relationship.. man I don't like getting technical.. but okay...

Originally the question was whether Te-Ti would be theoretically incompatible (in the case of Te dominants and Ti dominants), then I said it would be hard to believe, as they are likely (by theory) to be most compatible and there are pretty logical reasons behind those ideas as well (Te 'completing' Ti realms of thought, opposites attract, etc.). It's not just "I've known a couple of IXXXs and EXXXs that weren't like that; therefore everyone else must be the same in relationships". 

When people say ENFJs are the most compatible with INFPs, - they're really just being theoretical An INFP is an idea of a person, and an ENFJ is an idea of a person. It's really hard to observe how perspectives of a person, are attracted to each other IRL. But if it's possible to actually communicate perspectives, Fe/Fi or Te/Ti users would get along the most. I think that's what makes it theoretical, you can't identify these things in people, but if you isolate them as they are, then there is a good chance you will see how well they coalesce, confabulate (?) . Or whatever creates chemistry. 

I know, _whatever_ though, it's true. A lot of people know how to talk about functions, but then it's funny to see this stuff not surface at all IRL. Because we're talking ideas. 

My response to the OP, was that INTPs and ISFPs wouldn't work because there is little to no leeway for this confabulation to occur by MBTI functions. Saying _people _who test as INTP and _people_ who test as ISFP can't get along is an idea of.. a... whole.. 'nother..... level.... :tongue:












I rest my case.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

AverOblivious said:


> ... well yeah, but you also said INTPs and INFPs get along better than INTPs and ESTJs, by MBTI theory. Which I don't think MBTI theory agrees with.


Because of the above. If type doesn't dictate who we get along with, the point I was making that INFPs and INTPs don't get along because they are INFPs and INTPs, but because they are people who happened to get along.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

LeaT said:


> But because they are people who happened to get along.


Not to be arrogant or stubborn, but that's subjective reasoning. And that's what a lot of people here say, may have so many factors behind it.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> It's not the conclusions that bother people (I mean, you can read the same conclusions in print, and they would be less likely to bother you, because you're not associating them with a particular person that you already have any ideas in mind about) - it's the way they do it that bothers you, which you can only realize through self-awareness.




Yes, looks like you understood what I meant. This is exactly what I meant by the Fi types and Ti types potentially finding each others' reasoning strange. The grey area is that F and T find each other strange, but two introverted types' introversion can find a lot to identify with in each others' styles regardless.

This is also what I was getting at with Ni-doms -- often their introversion smooths out the interaction even if Te and Ti do not reason the same way. The fact that they're NJ introverted dominants can many times be quite enough. 




> You can't make dogmatic assertions about "which types are good for each other," etc.,




Indeed. My style is to dissect the various senses the various types' interrelations can manifest positively. It is not a relation between types but rather something more particular.




> Even if these types work with the same archetypal content, one through thinking and one through feeling, you can't see archetypal content of someone's mind




In fact, a similar truth even applies to two different thinking types with different styles of course. 



In Fi types, usually it is our fundamental introverted leaning which I identify with. My style of reasoning is certainly about as far from Fi as it gets.


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## Zero11 (Feb 7, 2010)

hornet said:


> So that is what this quandra business is all about...
> And I thought I didn't get socionics. :dry:
> It so simple once you have the stuff explained in a meaningful way.


And I thought it were obvious :angry: it was a mistake after all to sticky the Clubs instead of the Quadras inside the Socionics subforum.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

AverOblivious said:


> Not to be arrogant or stubborn, but that's subjective reasoning. And that's what a lot of people here say, may have so many factors behind it.


I'm a Ji user, of course I'll be subjective in my reasoning. I don't know any other way really. 

But that's still my entire point. My reality is mine. A theory cannot explain it or try to generalize everything. Not going to work and I think it's flawed. You see people who take an MBTI test, look up their type description and it says, X type works out great with Y type as lovers so now they think they can only have successful romantic relationships with this particular type. 

It is exactly this kind of reasoning I am opposing which you are kind of promoting in this thread. At least duality is kind of recognized in socionics but I yet to see anything regarding intertype interaction being valid in MBTI. If anything, you'll find plenty of threads where it says that X type doesn't work with Y just like you'll see A type working with B. It just becomes meaningless to me at some point.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Zero11 said:


> And I thought it were obvious :angry: it was a mistake after all to sticky the Clubs instead of the Quadras inside the Socionics subforum.


Anyone feel like being just as obvious with that clubs business?


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## Zero11 (Feb 7, 2010)

@hornet

The clubs are the surface and the Elements/Functions (Quadras) are the insides which are necessary for the inter-type relationships.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

This subjective reasoning thing is quite overblown anyway. Our conclusions are influenced by various levels of introversion and extroversion. There is a space for introversion and extroversion everywhere. The foundations an introverted function manipulates are inherently attached to the user's understanding. This is true of introversion in general. As long as one does not mix up where introversion applies and where extroversion applies, there's no problem.

If there is a mixup, which can happen with _any type_, then correction is necessary.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Zero11 said:


> @_hornet_
> 
> The clubs are the surface and the Elements/Functions (Quadras) are the insides which are necessary for the inter-type relationships.


Eh...
At least you tried... but that wasn't all that obvious.

I looked it up and got


> _Clubs_ are groups that reflect spheres of activity.


So basically all the other SFs are in my club?
It is feeling on the same plane basically.

I think I get it then. 
To me socionics becomes more and more a fancy name calling to different mixes of functions.
A way to throw around arcane names that signify nothing, other than stuff that can just as easily be defined in MBTI terminology.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Oh no, this theory doesn't really explain anything beyond what you might be able to describe about a person. That's exactly what Jung intended with it (he famously said (on type) "...means nothing more than what the husband can describe about the wife" and vice-versa). It works in the realm of "ego consciousness," not "self-consciousness."


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## Deveo (Jun 20, 2012)

My cousin is an (INFP 4w5) and I am an (INTP 5w4). It is also relevant to say that we've lived together for 8 months. So I KNOW him. Our relationship is both enjoyable and beneficial.

His Fi can be frustrating when it comes to his mood, and I can forget that he is acutely sensitive to the notion of his feelings being undermined. I need to remember patience, understanding, and respect, even if he doesn't show it to me in the moment, because he will after reflection. He will explain how he feels and why and seek a mutual understanding of the situation. 

We both share a need for expression, though his does seem more urgent. His wish is to express himself through martial arts and ultimately help those he cares for. Though my goals are more obscure, I tend to use visual, musical, or literary arts much more often. We're able to support eachother with our goals, which make me happy indeed.

Point: INFP and INTP relationships are not fail.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

LeaT said:


> I'm a Ji user, of course I'll be subjective in my reasoning. I don't know any other way really.
> 
> But that's still my entire point. My reality is mine. A theory cannot explain it or try to generalize everything. Not going to work and I think it's flawed. You see people who take an MBTI test, look up their type description and it says, X type works out great with Y type as lovers so now they think they can only have successful romantic relationships with this particular type.
> 
> It is exactly this kind of reasoning I am opposing which you are kind of promoting in this thread. At least duality is kind of recognized in socionics but I yet to see anything regarding intertype interaction being valid in MBTI. If anything, you'll find plenty of threads where it says that X type doesn't work with Y just like you'll see A type working with B. It just becomes meaningless to me at some point.


Well, I didn't really mean that your reasoning was flawed. But it's true though, it's subjective for the people involved (and their reasoning as well), and it could have many factors behind it. People aren't equations after all. (not to my knowledge at least)

Like I said in a previous post, I wasn't actually saying X works out with Y. I'm not _promoting_ anything either. I was saying that if you somehow isolate the functions themselves, these are the matches that will be the most likely to coalesce into a whole. Fe-Fi. It just makes sense that way. 
I'm pretty sure they only say X type goes with Y type because X functions goes with Y functions. It's more about functions in relationships. 

And YES, that's why I'm saying reality can follow if it wants. And like I said despite all these ideas, stuff rarely surfaces. I did say that. But even then, that is MBTI theory as people know it. You can throw it away if you want, or you asset your own model and make up your own theory, and develop psychology. Your choice. Then again, I wouldn't be wasting my breath on some random guy on a forum. Sorry. :kitteh:

Tbh, I can list traits of my ideal type or things I appreciate in the world, and oddly enough it can all be traits of an ENFJ/ESFJ (The ideal match), as far as my own subjective reasoning goes. And that's mainly due to raw Fe.


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## chaoticbrain (May 5, 2012)

Ya i've got an ISFP older sister and boy are we never on the same page.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't know how to say this without sounding pretentious... but I find it so easy to grasp foreign views, feelings, and ideas that I can't think of any type that I find very hard to grasp. There are certainly individuals I find difficult to grasp, but not any type as a whole. 

As much as I'm a glass-half-empty person, always noticing what's lacking & not ideal, I have a tendency to try and see others' views & feelings as valid in some way. I mostly get frustrated with people who dismiss _me_.

I don't think I have an issue understanding ISTPs. I wouldn't say that I find them fascinating, but they don't necessarily irritate me either. In person I see many of them as meatheads, but online you see a bit more of Ti reasoning and they can make some interesting posts on theory. 

Frankly, ESTJs do rub me the wrong way the most of all the types (does that make me an ENFJ? haha!), and quite a few ENTJs online do as well (that forum is like: :shocked: ). I can grasp their reasoning, but I see big flaws in it. It's the chest pounding and poop throwing that really turns me off.

While I generally like Si-dom, I find their reasoning harder to validate than some other types (it often just sounds like, "that's just how things are!" - huh?!). I do better in addressing their emotions and feelings than reasoning. 

The kind of posts I find it hard to get through are
- people being mean/rude and thinking it makes them clever
- tons of cutesy fluff that goes nowhere
- talking about current events or political stuff
- people taking offense easily & getting all huffy puffy (not giving benefit of the doubt, seeing threats where there aren't any, being overly PC; paging e6s ). It's more the manner of responding than actually getting offended.

I've seen a variety of self-typed people do that stuff, so I don't think it comes down to one type.


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## SuperNova85 (Feb 21, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> - people taking offense easily & getting all huffy puffy (not giving benefit of the doubt, seeing threats where there aren't any, being overly PC; paging e6s ). It's more the manner of responding than actually getting offended.


AMEN!! People need to grow up...


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

OrangeAppled said:


> I don't know how to say this without sounding pretentious... but I find it so easy to grasp foreign views, feelings, and ideas that I can't think of any type that I find very hard to grasp. There are certainly individuals I find difficult to grasp, but not any type as a whole.
> 
> As much as I'm a glass-half-empty person, always noticing what's lacking & not ideal, I have a tendency to try and see others' views & feelings as valid in some way. I mostly get frustrated with people who dismiss _me_.
> 
> ...


I really second your points here and I experience it in a similar way. I only really have a hard issue grasping strong Fe users so ISFJ, INFJ, ESFJ and ENFJ for me. Fe is the only function I essentially do not grasp at all. And I second you about the ExTJ forums. Same reason I stay away too. I mean, I know some ExTJs, they are not bad people, but they really tend to rub me in the wrong way after a while. I just can't inherently agree with how they think. 

I think some Si dom types are cool such as ISTJs when mature and intelligent, but yeah, I can see what you mean there too. I think when it comes to getting along in all cases, maturity is key to everything. I mean, even immature Fi doms rub each other the wrong way if they disagree value-wise. Or Ti.


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## magi83 (Sep 25, 2012)

If I think about some of the people I have had real difficulty working with most of them were ISTJs. I don't mean that I didn't like them (although a couple of them...) just that I would approach situations from a completely different angle. 

The ISTJs couldn't accept my intuitive leaps. To me, they would seem to take being thorough and methodical to a pointless extreme.

ESTPs annoy me sometimes but I have many ESTP friends. These friendships can be rewarding and frustrating in equal measure because I'm weak where they're strong and vice versa. 

ISTJs on the other hand have a tendency to make me want to smash my head repeatedly into a brick wall until my brains are running down in meaty red chunks.

So to the OP...yes I understand what you are saying.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

One more time: persona relationships have nothing to do with type (if you get alone with someone, it has nothing to do with their type - I mean, it depends on how you're defining "getting along" anyway. It's what might bug you about the way someone doesn't remind you of yourself that might point to type differences. If you were honest, you could probably point out the stuff that irritates you about your best friend easily, no matter what the type or who the person in general. Most things that bug people about people come from persona, not type - type's just rationalization tendencies that can manifest in so many incalculable ways.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Yea, ISFJs do that to me as well "make me want to smash my head against a wall" - they're so thorough, it's just something I can't really handle. I think the combo of Si-Ti makes this rougher (because then, they're always trying to make sure that they're on the same page as me in a really thorough way - they don't have a natural sense of merging their reasoning with the preconditions I set up externally with mine).


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## magi83 (Sep 25, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> One more time: persona relationships have nothing to do with type (if you get alone with someone, it has nothing to do with their type - I mean, it depends on how you're defining "getting along" anyway. It's what might bug you about the way someone doesn't remind you of yourself that might point to type differences. If you were honest, you could probably point out the stuff that irritates you about your best friend easily, no matter what the type or who the person in general. Most things that bug people about people come from persona, not type - type's just rationalization tendencies that can manifest in so many incalculable ways.


I think it's more pronounced when persona isn't a factor. I love spending time with my wife but do something practical together like put up a tent or fix a door handle...I'll do it myself thanks.

Work relationships are better examples for type interaction than personal relationships IMO because it involves two or more people approaching a problem. I think type can, to some extent, account for two individuals taking a completely different approach to the same problem (there are other factors obviously). 

In a team environment I find that I work well with ESTPs irrespective of whether or not I like them personally. I have a tendency to be the supply of ideas and observations, they go and make things happen.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> One more time: persona relationships have nothing to do with type (if you get alone with someone, it has nothing to do with their type - I mean, it depends on how you're defining "getting along" anyway. It's what might bug you about the way someone doesn't remind you of yourself that might point to type differences. If you were honest, you could probably point out the stuff that irritates you about your best friend easily, no matter what the type or who the person in general. Most things that bug people about people come from persona, not type - type's just rationalization tendencies that can manifest in so many incalculable ways.


Do you think enneatype would be more representative of persona than Jungian type?
I associate both with the ego more than a conscious persona...

I think I know what you mean about persona though. We tend to be drawn to people who confirm our self-perception. 

My issue with ESTJs is that they tend to view my persona in negative terms that make me feel misunderstood (and in fairness, I think I do the same to them). I also think that romantically, we are attracted to people who see us the way we want/need to be seen in order to maintain our ego (or maybe persona...where do you draw the line sometimes?). Basically, we fall in love with our own reflection, someone who mirrors back our own self-image. This is why people tend to focus on how the other person _makes them feel_ in a relationship over what they have to offer someone else (of course this gets complicated when a person's ego is built around being giving, unselfish, etc.).


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

OrangeAppled said:


> I also think that romantically, we are attracted to people who see us the way we want/need to be seen in order to maintain our ego (or maybe persona...where do you draw the line sometimes?). Basically, we fall in love with our own reflection, someone who mirrors back our own self-image. This is why people tend to focus on how the other person _makes them feel_ in a relationship over what they have to offer someone else (of course this gets complicated when a person's ego is built around being giving, unselfish, etc.).


Dang, I'd like to share this with my ISTJ friend... you described him and all of his relationships perfectly. But people never want to hear what they need to.


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## Sol_ (Jan 8, 2013)

fourtines said:


> The people who irritate my thinking the most, IF they go in depth, are INTPs


If you'll be in a very close situation, where you have to depend muchly from an opponent - you'll change your opinion.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Sol_ said:


> If you'll be in a very close situation, where you have to depend muchly from an opponent - you'll change your opinion.


No I won't. I have two good friends who are INTP males who are highly educated, post-grad level, and while I respect their intelligence, even they grate on me at times. 

I think if I were to pick someone to clearly and concisely defend my point of view, it might be an INTJ or ENTJ. Maybe an xSTJ in some situations.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> One more time: persona relationships have nothing to do with type (if you get alone with someone, it has nothing to do with their type - I mean, it depends on how you're defining "getting along" anyway. It's what might bug you about the way someone doesn't remind you of yourself that might point to type differences. If you were honest, you could probably point out the stuff that irritates you about your best friend easily, no matter what the type or who the person in general. Most things that bug people about people come from persona, not type - type's just rationalization tendencies that can manifest in so many incalculable ways.


Yeah the getting along stuff has more to do with persona than function order, or even interest.

I mean @OrangeAppled said she's annoyed by people who talk about current events and politics. That's one of my favorite subjects. That has nothing to do with type, probably, just with interest and education. And I believe it was in this thread earlier that I mentioned INTPs who share these interests...but talk about them in such a round-about, specialized language, IDKWTF way that I want to just stop talking to some of them about it. So I could even share that interest with someone but be put off by the way they approach it. Aside from INTPs who give the Ti wall of text to analyze current events, I think the other forum of political talk that actually bothers me are die-hard conspiracy theorists, and I tend to associate that with unhealthy Ni in some sort of T type: maybe NTJs and STPs, conspiracy theory crap drives me batshit. 

But I'm sure there are some people who find my personal interest in the metaphysical and paranormal equally as annoying. 

I think it's funny, too, that you are saying most of this isn't type related, but go on to admit in your next post that ISFJs make you want to smash your head against the wall, and @OrangeAppled did something similar with STJs. 

So I know that eclipse in communication with NTPs is real. In ENTPs it causes more real outward battles on-line, like us actually incensing each other in some way, but interestingly enough, I've found a couple of ENTPs warmer and easier to talk to and more forgiving than some INTJs, even though I found the INTJs posts easier to read or understand where they were coming from. I think that has to do with them having tertiary Fe, that warmth and friendliness they have, it's almost like a baby ESFJ. And I almost never fight with INTPs (though it has happened) but I truly find their function order method of communication pretty hairy to get through at times and just get frustrated, and probably the only way you relate to that is the frustration you feel with ISFJs.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Deveo said:


> My cousin is an (INFP 4w5) and I am an (INTP 5w4). It is also relevant to say that we've lived together for 8 months. So I KNOW him. Our relationship is both enjoyable and beneficial.
> 
> His Fi can be frustrating when it comes to his mood, and I can forget that he is acutely sensitive to the notion of his feelings being undermined. I need to remember patience, understanding, and respect, even if he doesn't show it to me in the moment, because he will after reflection. He will explain how he feels and why and seek a mutual understanding of the situation.
> 
> ...


I just think it comes down to Fi and Ti clashing in their judgments or not understanding each other's thought process; that doesn't necessarily equal hate or a lack of respect.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@_fourtines_

By the "ISFJs make me want to smash my head against a wall", I meant that more toward specific episodes of reasoning that over-take them, especially when they try to get me to "get" where they're coming from, even though the way I order information is almost painfully different from them (they have that whole super thorough+analytical Si-Ti thing going on that's tough for me to adapt to). It has nothing to do with the individuals bothering me though, other than often, I don't know, something about their reasoning just kind of makes me feel distant from them often (not always - certain ones come to mind though in my life - sort of like we have no goals in common at all - kind of like talking to a person from a very different universe - I almost have to resign to assume that they won't really get my quirks, even though we may still get along). Yea, inferior Fe - there's something really annoying about that at times - I dunno, some of these people are almost co-dependent about expressing feelings - if you disagree with them, they act clueless as to why you would have a different opinion.


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## JoanCrawford (Sep 27, 2012)

fourtines said:


> If I were to say my four letter opposite is ENTJ, this would be true, and often the idea of the domineering, social climbing or excessively goal-centered ENTJ is off-putting to me; but I still can understand what they're saying, if that makes any sense. When ENTJs talk or write, I still comprehend where they're coming from, even if I don't like what they're saying.
> 
> The people who irritate my thinking the most, IF they go in depth, are INTPs. There are INTPs I get along with just fine, I'm not complaining about INTPs as a type, but they are most likely to write essays that are torturous for me to try to read; Ti/Ne is my real opposite, not Te/Ni.
> 
> Who knows what I mean by this? While you may not appreciate the way your four-letter opposite uses the same functions, at least you understand where they're coming from, while the person who actually uses the opposing functions is the confusing one, or who makes your mind bend in an unpleasant or what you see as an unnecessary way.


 I will admit the I have met many ISFP's, but then one's that I do meet just DO NOT take to me. I have no clue why, either, I am never mean to them or anything and I am interested in them. XD Whatever, at least I try! I find the most irritating to be INFP's. Their extreme Fi is just so frustrating, I can't even...

EDIT:
Actually, I think I will elaborate a little more. INFP's do not bother me on the forums, the ones that annoy me most on PERC would be INFJ's. Their "can do no wrong" attitude during debates can piss me off a bit but nothing devastating. I must say, though, that I still do not have a least favorite type. While I tend to not get along with some a lot of times, there are always times when I can get them fairly well. For example; an INFP and I can share our Ne to come up with amazing concepts and Ideas that other types just wouldn't get.


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## Joseph (Jun 20, 2012)

I would greatly prefer to see the forums for types split up by cognitive functions, as in: 

ESFP, ISFP, ENTJ, INTJ
ESFJ, ISFJ, ENTP, INTP
ESTJ, ISTJ, ENFP, INFP
ESTP, ISTP, ENFJ, INFJ

I would strongly support a change to this split at PerC. Someone should propose it officially to a mod or something


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## ENFPdvd (Dec 30, 2012)

Do you have a list of who the opposites of each would be. It seems that my opposite as an enfp is infj. Funny thing is the friends I love and adore most are infjs. I seem to be quite the opposite of my sister who I swear is an ENTJ maybe an ESTJ?


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## ENFPdvd (Dec 30, 2012)

Or is my opposite ESTP?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

ENFPdvd said:


> Do you have a list of who the opposites of each would be. It seems that my opposite as an enfp is infj. Funny thing is the friends I love and adore most are infjs. I seem to be quite the opposite of my sister who I swear is an ENTJ maybe an ESTJ?


Your real opposite is an ESTP. Se Ti. Fe Ni. 

You probably do feel surface differences with TJs because of being an FP. I fight most with INTJs on-line, but the few I've known IRL seem to be quite fascinated with me, even wanted to fuck me apparently.

I really don't "get" their dry, intellectual unemotional "lists" of qualifying "others" when it comes to relating, though. Even xSTJs are less strict in this department; they just want you to be cool to hang out with and attractive. INTJs in particular seem to have insane standards as far as I can tell, at least in theory, if not in reality. And not so much female INTJs. I've noticed that I get along REALLY WELL with female TJs on-line. Like super well...ESTJs, ENTJs, ISTJs, INTJs...even had a female ISTJ say that I was just like a more emotionally expressive version of herself, basically, that she thought and felt a lot of things I did, but kept them inside.

Worst on-line altercations with male INTJs and ENTPs of both sexes/genders.

Minor tiffs with a male ISTJ, completely overcome by over a year of constant companionship and smug Intertubez partnership.

I have had problems too with male ISTPs trying openly to torment me on another web site, but nothing of the kind on this site. And nothing IRL. Even IRL one of the ISTPs was much nicer and sweeter than he is on-line. What he behaves like on-line is some kind of drunken abhorration or something. 

I don't think I've ever been singled out for torment or bullying on-line by someone who wasn't Ti dom/aux.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

fourtines said:


> If I were to say my four letter opposite is ENTJ, this would be true, and often the idea of the domineering, social climbing or excessively goal-centered ENTJ is off-putting to me; but I still can understand what they're saying, if that makes any sense. When ENTJs talk or write, I still comprehend where they're coming from, even if I don't like what they're saying.
> The people who irritate my thinking the most, IF they go in depth, are INTPs. There are INTPs I get along with just fine, I'm not complaining about INTPs as a type, but they are most likely to write essays that are torturous for me to try to read; Ti/Ne is my real opposite, not Te/Ni.
> Who knows what I mean by this? While you may not appreciate the way your four-letter opposite uses the same functions, at least you understand where they're coming from, while the person who actually uses the opposing functions is the confusing one, or who makes your mind bend in an unpleasant or what you see as an unnecessary way.


I know exactly what you mean. I've always considered STPs and, to a less extent, NFJs to be my opposite much more than STJs, whom I notice often take into account the same information as I do, but with different priorities (though, to be honest, I seldom communicate easily with any of the Fe/Ti users. they confuse the hell out of me)


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> @_fourtines_
> 
> By the "ISFJs make me want to smash my head against a wall", I meant that more toward specific episodes of reasoning that over-take them, especially when they try to get me to "get" where they're coming from, even though the way I order information is almost painfully different from them (they have that whole super thorough+analytical Si-Ti thing going on that's tough for me to adapt to). It has nothing to do with the individuals bothering me though, other than often, I don't know, something about their reasoning just kind of makes me feel distant from them often (not always - certain ones come to mind though in my life - sort of like we have no goals in common at all - kind of like talking to a person from a very different universe - I almost have to resign to assume that they won't really get my quirks, even though we may still get along). Yea, inferior Fe - there's something really annoying about that at times - I dunno, some of these people are almost co-dependent about expressing feelings - if you disagree with them, they act clueless as to why you would have a different opinion.



Yes, that is exactly what I am saying about Ti doms, specifically INTPs, if you didn't understand. It's the way they communicate or order information. It's something about their reasoning that makes me feel distant from them.

It's about reading walls of text that I think are confusing or pointless, describing things in a way that almost seems intentionally obtuse or opaque. They seem like the drag queens of academic specialized language, like let's show off our inferior Fe by giving everybody a fashion show of the most pretentious, dry, pedantic language we can possibly use; let's discuss things in the most guarded, pretentious and lengthy fashion available.

That's how I feel about a lot of INTP writing, whether it's forum posts or Edgar Allen Poe's non-fiction. If he wasn't an INTP, he was an INFJ with over-developed Ti, which he expressed annoyingly and ridiculously in his non-fiction, though I love his stories.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I am saying about Ti doms, specifically INTPs, if you didn't understand. It's the way they communicate or order information. It's something about their reasoning that makes me feel distant from them.
> 
> It's about reading walls of text that I think are confusing or pointless, describing things in a way that almost seems intentionally obtuse or opaque. They seem like the drag queens of academic specialized language, like let's show off our inferior Fe by giving everybody a fashion show of the most pretentious, dry, pedantic language we can possibly use; let's discuss things in the most guarded, pretentious and lengthy fashion available.
> 
> That's how I feel about a lot of INTP writing, whether it's forum posts or Edgar Allen Poe's non-fiction. If he wasn't an INTP, he was an INFJ with over-developed Ti, which he expressed annoyingly and ridiculously in his non-fiction, though I love his stories.


He was INFP apparently, 4w5 as well.. Well I guess that's still not a reason to hate other people because of how they perceive things. Especially since mbti has been set up to allow us to understand but also accept other people.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Keeping the N or S stable but flipping the other three letters might work reasonably well. For instance, pairing an E*N*TP with an I*N*FJ would probably be pretty stimulating for both parties (some shared Ti-Fe going on there; both lead, intuitive perceivers, etc.). Obviously personal factors - age, chemistry, etc. - should be given more weight than any NT-concocted love formula quackery haha. In other words, an ENTP rapper from Brooklyn probably isn't going to hit it off with an INFJ bookstore owner from Alabama. The mirror relationship stuff with Socionics is interesting though. Food for thought. :tongue:


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

AverOblivious said:


> He was INFP apparently, 4w5 as well.. Well I guess that's still not a reason to hate other people because of how they perceive things. Especially since mbti has been set up to allow us to understand but also accept other people.


What the fuck are you talking about? He calls himself strongest in Sensing and Thinking in one passage, and other people commonly type him as INFJ.

INFP 4w5?... Did you just ...make this up?


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

fourtines said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? He calls himself strongest in Sensing and Thinking in one passage, and other people commonly type him as INFJ.INFP 4w5?... Did you just ...make this up?


Lol. I've always seen him typed INFP. And I'm pretty sure you can see his name under a couple of 4w5 descriptions... Like the one in enneagraminstitute.com or whatever.He's even INFP here: http://www.celebritytypes.com/infp.phpA 4 here: 4 - Enneagram Type Four: The Individualist the rest on google if you want : https://www.google.com/search?q=edgar+allan+poe+4w5&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari... Yeah... I just made this up... (Wait, what?) Oh, and the second part of my post was about your need to antagonize INTPs, like they actually somehow, owe you something for existing.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

AverOblivious said:


> Lol. I've always seen him typed INFP. And I'm pretty sure you can see his name under a couple of 4w5 descriptions... Like the one in enneagraminstitute.com or whatever.He's even INFP here: http://www.celebritytypes.com/infp.phpA 4 here: 4 - Enneagram Type Four: The Individualist the rest on google if you want : https://www.google.com/search?q=edgar+allan+poe+4w5&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari... Yeah... I just made this up... (Wait, what?) Oh, and the second part of my post was about your need to antagonize INTPs, like they actually somehow, owe you something for existing.


If you actually READ JUNG, he says that he as a scientist had sensing and thinking uppermost, and unconscious intuition and feeling. Most people feel compelled to type him as the INFJ persona, though, because of his heavy emphasis on things like dreams and symbolism and mysticism.

I did not make this thread to antagonize INTPs, I never said anyone owed me anything, and clarified repeatedly throughout the thread that I have INTP friends, that they aren't a type I frequently fight with, and what the issue was, so again, I ask you, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

fourtines said:


> If you actually READ JUNG, he says that he as a scientist had sensing and thinking uppermost, and unconscious intuition and feeling. Most people feel compelled to type him as the INFJ persona, though, because of his heavy emphasis on things like dreams and symbolism and mysticism.


Jung effectively characterized himself as two different types (ISTP and INTP), at different points in his development. Let's not get carried away. Actually, Jung made at least one oft-cited type declaration in an interview, so reading Jung might not be essential. At any rate, Jung also claimed that type was malleable. It should also be borne in mind that self-assessment isn't always entirely accurate, even in the case of god-Jung.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

unctuousbutler said:


> Jung effectively characterized himself as two different types (ISTP and INTP), at different points in his development. Let's not get carried away. Actually, Jung made at least one oft-cited type declaration in an interview, so reading Jung might not be essential. At any rate, Jung also claimed that type was malleable. It should also be borne in mind that self-assessment isn't always entirely accurate, even in the case of god-Jung.


If Jung cannot self-type, then who the hell can?


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

fourtines said:


> If Jung cannot self-type, then who the hell can?


Psychological Types and MBTI are not the same thing. Jung might be one thing according to one system (e.g., Ti-dom vis-a-vis Psychological Types) and another thing according to later systems (e.g., INFJ in MBTI). The underlying constructs - cognitive functions - obviously aren't identical across systems. Extrapolation poses problems to the initial system's integrity. 



> These preferences were *extrapolated* from the typological theories proposed by Carl Gustav Jung and first published in his 1921 book _Psychological Types_ (English edition, 1923[SUP][2][/SUP]).


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

Warning: three paragraphs of information ahead. You're welcome, Se-doms.


* *




I think this thread is a good example of why I never got along well in the long-run with any strong Se users. As I theorized in other places, the most intense conflicts of understanding are bound to come from the N/S dichotomy than anything else. I can't stand Se's tendency to leap before looking, as well as their incessant need to frequently simplify things to a point where it seems their meaning has been lost completely. It's like taking Dread Scott's work, _What is the Proper Way to Display a US Flag?_, and describing it in an article as 'an art piece in which the viewer must step on a flag in order to comment on how the flag should be displayed'. There's no natural in-depth analysis of the meaning, and if there is, it tends to be terribly simplified in a way that doesn't back up their statements. They barely get past concrete reality because their natural focus is there.

Obviously, that's a generalized statement, and is by no means all-encompassing. Most of my best friends were ISFPs, but I never got close to them because of the aforementioned issue. I liked to process things in a way beyond what I saw, while my Se friends would either choose not to assume/theorize, or quickly assume one theory before a thorough analysis (depending on how personally involved they were). And I feel sorry for the poor bastard that has to explain a theory opposite to what the Se individual 'knows'; they seem slower to accept alternative theories, and they can be quick to assume Intuitives 'have their heads in the clouds' and 'are not aware of reality'. 

I should point out that my strongest conflicts have been with anyone utilizing Se with Fi, especially when Se is dominant. Fi may have had more to do with that stubborn grip they had on singular ideas with no alternatives (since those ideas were personally significant); or it's unrelated to type, and is either narcissism, or some other self-esteem issue. I can think of a few of them that would have turned it around on me, and said I was the narcissistic one, even when I was clearly conceding points in a debate that made sense. Ti wants thorough definition, and when Se (as a dominant) doesn't give it, Ti-dom users will get agitated; Ti wants personal detachment, and when Fi doesn't give it, there's more agitation. Add to that the fact that Fi users have a tendency to take things personally and lash out, and you have half of an explosive brew of angst that only requires a dash of Ti to set off.

And I bet an xSTP would have replaced the fire extinguisher with a gasoline can.





In summary (something for those of you with no attention spans):

S/N is where the conflict is. Ti-Ne will probably clash the most with Se and Fi (Se's tendency not to look past surface bugs Ne; Fi's tendency to stubbornly hold to an idea because of personal value bugs Ti) while having semi-clashes with xSTP types (ex: arguing over which is more important - immediate needs, or long-term needs).


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## ENFPdvd (Dec 30, 2012)

fourtines said:


> Your real opposite is an ESTP. Se Ti. Fe Ni.
> 
> You probably do feel surface differences with TJs because of being an FP. I fight most with INTJs on-line, but the few I've known IRL seem to be quite fascinated with me, even wanted to fuck me apparently.
> 
> ...



I seem to struggle with ESTJs and ISTJ. I love ISFPs and ISFJs. My dad is an ENTP and we are very similar but can drive eachother nuts. My boyfriend and my mom are INFPs and I get them though sometimes I find themselves to repress themselves a little too much. I want to say - If that's how you feel, SAY IT! I am really attracted to INTP guys and INFP guys. Also tend to make great friendships with ESTP guys. I once was close to a group of guys that were predominantly ESTP and they saw me as one of them.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Jung did self type - it's just that ISTP and INTP didn't exist to him - to him, it was TN or TS, so sure, you might get Ti-Si (INTP with more emphasis on sensation) and it would exist to Jung and Ti-Ni and it would exist to Jung (ISTP with more emphasis on intuition). You might also get Ti-Se or Ti-Ne to him. Or even Ti-N or Ti-S, without differentiation of the auxiliary function.


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## War pigs (Sep 12, 2012)

Real letters, expect P or J


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

fourtines said:


> If you actually READ JUNG, he says that he as a scientist had sensing and thinking uppermost, and unconscious intuition and feeling. Most people feel compelled to type him as the INFJ persona, though, because of his heavy emphasis on things like dreams and symbolism and mysticism.
> 
> I did not make this thread to antagonize INTPs, I never said anyone owed me anything, and clarified repeatedly throughout the thread that I have INTP friends, that they aren't a type I frequently fight with, and what the issue was, so again, I ask you, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?


Even if I didn't read Jung, it's so obvious that he is an INFJ from interviews (but even then I'm not _as sure_ as you seem to be that he is not). I didn't even talk about Jung, you're the one who is using him as an example for celebrity mistypes, which I wasn't even talking about. So what _are you_ talking about? 

You _don't have_ to be a certain MBTI type to have Sensing and Thinking uppermost, since in MBTI, those functions exists within the preferences order (N F S T) of any type. Your functions order doesn't determine how strong they are, your own development does. Especially since INFPs can go into negative Fi-Si loops, practicing Si more than their Ne. Since Edgar Allan Poe is more horrific than anything, I'd say he may be reminiscent of one these loops himself.

I'm looking at the big picture, and how you're frequently associating words like 'confusing', 'pointless', etc. with INTPs and what they have to say. Even if you do have INTP friends, it doesn't give you the right to disrespect anyone or give input that views a personality type in a negative light (which you did do). It's usually _people_ that make it negative, not the personality type or its functions. You don't have reason to insult a personality type just because you met some shitty people (and that seems to be your references). 

I don't really care for mindless rhetoric whether IRL or on a MESSAGE BOARD !?! . I gave you enough references that stated why I may have _suggested/believed_ Poe to be INFP 4w5 (even though I know that this stuff doesn't confirm anything). This was to answer your initial question which was "what the fuck are you talking about?", - in case you forgot. (which you probably did forget, because you asked that _again_, for reasons which are as vague as a celebrity's real MBTI type).


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

AverOblivious said:


> You _don't have_ to be a certain MBTI type to have Sensing and Thinking uppermost, since in MBTI, those functions exists within the preferences order (N F S T) of any type. Your functions order doesn't determine how strong they are, your own development does. Especially since INFPs can go into negative Fi-Si loops, practicing Si more than their Ne. Since Edgar Allan Poe is more horrific than anything, I'd say he may be reminiscent of one these loops himself.


This is basically off-topic but Poe is/was also 4w5 in the enneagram. The tendency for fours, perhaps like high Si users, is to hang onto experience, except that (average/unhealthy?) fours hang on to experiences in order to intensify some desired emotion, usually of a painful/melancholic variety. Unhealthy fours unconstructively live in the past. :bored:


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Jung did self type - it's just that ISTP and INTP didn't exist to him - to him, it was TN or TS, so sure, you might get Ti-Si (INTP with more emphasis on sensation) and it would exist to Jung and Ti-Ni and it would exist to Jung (ISTP with more emphasis on intuition). You might also get Ti-Se or Ti-Ne to him. Or even Ti-N or Ti-S, without differentiation of the auxiliary function.


Jung is 100% undoubtedly positively Ni. :tongue:


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

unctuousbutler said:


> This is basically off-topic but Poe is/was also 4w5 in the enneagram. The tendency for fours, perhaps like high Si users, is to hang onto experience, except that (average/unhealthy?) fours hang on to experiences in order to intensify some desired emotion, usually of a painful/melancholic variety. Unhealthy fours unconstructively live in the past. :bored:


I think you're totally on topic, and I initially said Poe was a model 4w5 (as a lot of people suggest). And yeah, pretty much, 4s have an affinity for dwelling in states of melancholy and the macabre (which Poe is known for). He can be intellectual and truth seeking like a 5, but he can also not be for the sake of intensifying emotion.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I get where @fourtines is coming from. I mean, sometimes it does bug me when Ti doms over identify with their own thinking (like, that's just not me, so don't expect me to relate, no matter how personal you're thinking is becoming in relation to you).


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Here's what I meant earlier when I said that Jung had different ideas about one's functional stack. 



> The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, *extraverted character*, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed.


With the Ti dominant wo/man, Jung appears to be saying that the function order, assuming INTP, should be: Ti, Ne, Se, Fe. Or, at the least, some combination of the last three items (i.e., Ne, Se, Fe).

Jung's ideas about the unconscious also seem to fundamentally differ from those of modern MBTI theorists. @fourtines


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Below Jung's thought appears to become aligned with the modern-day MBTI schemata in which Ni-dom has inferior Se. 



> The introverted intuitive's chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

unctuousbutler said:


> Below Jung's thought appears to become aligned with the modern-day MBTI schemata in which Ni-dom has inferior Se.


yes there's an entire theory of neurosis built around the inferior


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## PSI Freeze (Mar 9, 2015)

I see your point. I am an INTP and I have a friend who is ESFJ. We are very different, but we both dislike the same people and we rant about them together on the phone. I have yet to find a specific type to despise.


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