# The deceitful sex. dun dun dun...



## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

I noticed something interesting about myself recently. It's that I tend to percieve women as decietful. There are a number of personal and likely psychological reasons for this. But I'm interested in knowing whether or not you percieve a particular gender as being more decietful. Note: Please don't think I'm misogynist. If you do; you're gravely mistaken.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

1. You use the term gender incorrectly. Gender does not equal biological sex, it is part of the psychological/mental/social identity of an individual.
2. You are assuming that all men are the same and all women are the same, and that one quality can be applied to all men or to all women simply on the basis that they are of a certain biological sex.
3. Gender roles and societal expectations play a big part in how men and women act, and how people see members of each sex.
4. You spelt deceitful wrong in your poll question.


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

skycloud86 said:


> 1. You use the term gender incorrectly. Gender does not equal biological sex, it is part of the psychological/mental/social identity of an individual.
> 2. You are assuming that all men are the same and all women are the same, and that one quality can be applied to all men or to all women simply on the basis that they are of a certain biological sex.
> 3. Gender roles and societal expectations play a big part in how men and women act, and how people see members of each sex.
> 4. You spelt deceitful wrong in your poll question.


1. Not so long ago, gender and sex were nearly synonymous. I'm sure most people still think this way. Princeton's WordNet does. What you're talking about is "gender identity". But those who use such terminology find it beneficial to annex "gender" as "gender identity" which is quite understandable.
2. No I'm not. I'm simply accepting a broad category and hoping that I find a correlation which _might_ have to do with their sex. A correlation justifies the endeavor to find such a cause. Assuming the third case attains the least votes: either there is a false perception that men/women, as a collective group, are more deceitful or one of them IS more deceitful. I'd like to find out why if such is the case. Perhaps there is a biological/societal advantage to deceit or the perception thereof.
3. I'd have to see data on that. I can understand the assumption that they play a part, but a BIG part? That's up to scrutiny.
4. Indeed, I did. I now hate myself. What's more annoying is that I cannot change it. In my defense: it was late at night when I made this poll and I made it on my mobile phone.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

When you talk about gender, you're probably referring to the Western idea of gender roles.

Look into the Arapesh, Mundugumor, and Tchambuli. Margaret Mead did a lot of work on gender roles in other cultures. To simplify my examples:

Arapesh: Both sexes acted in a way that Western society would deem feminine. In their culture, both males and females took to nurturing and were NOT expected to be aggressive.

Mundugumor: Both sexes acted in a way that Western society would deem masculine. Little interest in raising/nurturing the young. Very aggressive.

Tchambuli: The Western gender roles were switched. Women were the breadwinners and were more aggressive, business-like. The men were more interested in aesthetics and looking attractive for a woman so they could settle down and raise children.


The reason I refer to it as Western is because the Western way doesn't mean it's the correct or "normal" way. There's no such thing as _normal_.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

It's probably about the same, but men are usually more interested in decieving me personally so I voted for that. Ahem.

Since gender has so little to do with personality though, you won't get anything really useful. It's not exactly a causal connection. At most you could say that, in many societies, women are told they are not 'feminine' for being direct and so take indirect means, but that isn't necessarily deceitful. And not all women go for that anyway, or all societies. I think what is more common though, is, considering the majority hetero makeup of society, men tend to have certain motivations for decieving women and women tend to have those motivations for decieving men - in general, deliberately overgeneralising, yes. Perhaps that is a reason for your impression.

(I hope someone can fix the spelling)


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

Fizz said:


> When you talk about gender, you're probably referring to the Western idea of gender roles.
> 
> Look into the Arapesh, Mundugamor, and Tchambuli. Margaret Mead did a lot of work on gender roles in other cultures. To simplify my examples:
> 
> ...


I understand different gender roles. However, whenever I say "gender" it nearly always implies biological male/female. When I talk to children: I say "gender" because it's more appropriate than saying "sex". It differentiates, although context is usually enough to suffice; I find such terminology better. Whenever I speak of males/females; I'd rather not think about sex (the reproductive act) simply because of terminology. So it's not "gender roles" I'm referring to, but rather "gender" as in biological male/female.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

AVanover5 said:


> I understand different gender roles. However, whenever I say "gender" it nearly always implies biological male/female. When I talk to children: I say "gender" because it's more appropriate than saying "sex". It differentiates, although context is usually enough to suffice; I find such terminology better. Whenever I speak of males/females; I'd rather not think about sex (the reproductive act) simply because of terminology. So it's not "gender roles" I'm referring to, but rather "gender" as in biological male/female.


What is the point of this poll then? It just seems like you're trying to start some kind of battle of the sexes.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

AVanover5 said:


> 1. Not so long ago, gender and sex were nearly synonymous. I'm sure most people still think this way. Princeton's WordNet does. What you're talking about is "gender identity". But those who use such terminology find it beneficial to annex "gender" as "gender identity" which is quite understandable.


I think it's better to separate the terms, because biology and identity can be and are two very different things.



> 2. No I'm not. I'm simply accepting a broad category and hoping that I find a correlation which _might_ have to do with their sex. A correlation justifies the endeavor to find such a cause. Assuming the third case attains the least votes: either there is a false perception that men/women, as a collective group, are more deceitful or one of them IS more deceitful. I'd like to find out why if such is the case. Perhaps there is a biological/societal advantage to deceit or the perception thereof.


Most people are going to either vote for the opposite sex or for neither, so the results will depend heavily on the biological sex of the voters.



> 3. I'd have to see data on that. I can understand the assumption that they play a part, but a BIG part? That's up to scrutiny.


But you do agree that gender roles and societal expectations play a part, like most people believe?



> 4. Indeed, I did. I now hate myself. What's more annoying is that I cannot change it. In my defense: it was late at night when I made this poll and I made it on my mobile phone.


Well, it is only a small mistake, so don't feel too bad about it.


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## LittleHawk (Feb 15, 2011)

I don't really consider anybody to be deceitful, I think it's a really negative and unhealthy way of viewing people, almost expecting the worst of them before they have the chance to prove you wrong. I will say however I'm very careful about who I trust on the basis that I put a lot of energy into my relationships with people and I'm not really willing to casually throw that around. So for me this isn't really a gender related issue. Innocent til proven wrong, I think.


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## vellocent (Dec 18, 2010)

This poll annoys me, I said both. Maybe you should say what personality type is the most decietful, because every person is different. Even that question the answer would be, unhealthy versions of any enneagram type. Men and women deceive by manipulating the other's desire to get what he/she wants. People who understand this, but have integrity will not be as deceptive as those who understand it, but are careless with how they treat others. It has everything to do with the balance between compassion and understanding desire. The problem is that people have reached a point where we understand desire, but looking beyond desire to compassion is more of an advanced concept, where the consequences can take anywhere from moments to decades to see the results of. For the sake of modesty, I'm far from obtaining this balance, farther than average at times.


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

Fizz said:


> What is the point of this poll then? It just seems like you're trying to start some kind of battle of the sexes.


I resent the fact that you think/feel such, as well as anyone else who thinks/feels such. There is no "battle of the sexes" initiation going on here and I furthermore resent the fact that you're attempting to instill guilt in me, if and only if it be the case, based on said thought/feeling. The point is to find a correlation, if there be one, which would justify the endeavor to search for a cause of said correlation. There may be some underlying biological adaptation that has taken place which has caused one gender to be more deceitful than the other, or the perception thereof. I'm not even assuming that deceit is a bad, though most people know from their parents "do not lie" (which is a very basic form of deceit). It may be a necessary thing.

In short; I'm a curious scientist.


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

LittleHawk said:


> I don't really consider anybody to be deceitful, I think it's a really negative and unhealthy way of viewing people, almost expecting the worst of them before they have the chance to prove you wrong. I will say however I'm very careful about who I trust on the basis that I put a lot of energy into my relationships with people and I'm not really willing to casually throw that around. So for me this isn't really a gender related issue. Innocent til proven wrong, I think.


Do you suppose that deceit could be viewed in a positive light?


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

vellocent said:


> This poll annoys me, I said both. Maybe you should say what personality type is the most decietful, because every person is different. Even that question the answer would be, unhealthy versions of any enneagram type. Men and women deceive by manipulating the other's desire to get what he/she wants. People who understand this, but have integrity will not be as deceptive as those who understand it, but are careless with how they treat others. It has everything to do with the balance between compassion and understanding desire. The problem is that people have reached a point where we understand desire, but looking beyond desire to compassion is more of an advanced concept, where the consequences can take anywhere from moments to decades to see the results of. For the sake of modesty, I'm far from obtaining this balance, farther than average at times.


My interest is based on the unique properties of men and women. Indeed, every person is different. But surely there are tendencies based on a variety of factors. That's what I'm looking for. I understand your frustrations. Realize that I'm only a curious person.


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

skycloud86 said:


> I think it's better to separate the terms, because biology and identity can be and are two very different things.


I suppose, I'd rather not though. When I ask someone, via indirect medium, "what's your sex?" they immediately assume I'm asking because I'm looking for sex (the reproductive one). That's really the main reason I take "gender" to mean "biological male/female". =.=



skycloud86 said:


> Most people are going to either vote for the opposite sex or for neither, so the results will depend heavily on the biological sex of the voters.


Perhaps. I was thinking about putting "I'm a male/female" in parentheses but I thought that a lot of people would pretend and throw off the stats. I actually know a lot of women who perceive other women as being deceitful (maybe this is just a thing in my area?).



skycloud86 said:


> But you do agree that gender roles and societal expectations play a part, like most people believe?


Of course, anything that exists in a society will have influence; especially that which is related to identity and status. How much influence is of another matter.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I find this question difficult to answer. I have been deceived by men more often than I have been deceived by women, or at least, have known more men who have attempted to deceive me than women who have attempted to do so. I do not think this means that men are more deceitful. I think it is conditional. I think if I were a straight man, I would probably be more cautious about being deceived by women. A lot of the deception in either case has to do with social and romantic motives. I voted that neither is more deceitful than the other, but if I were to have voted based solely on personal experience, I would have voted differently.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

According to the philosopher Chris Rock, men lie the most but women tell the biggest lies.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

AVanover5 said:


> I suppose, I'd rather not though. When I ask someone, via indirect medium, "what's your sex?" they immediately assume I'm asking because I'm looking for sex (the reproductive one). That's really the main reason I take "gender" to mean "biological male/female". =.=


You could just say "biological sex" or say "what sex were you born as?".



> Perhaps. I was thinking about putting "I'm a male/female" in parentheses but I thought that a lot of people would pretend and throw off the stats. I actually know a lot of women who perceive other women as being deceitful (maybe this is just a thing in my area?).


Although it does have largely biological origins, society has helped to create competition and rivalry between members of the same sex, almost as much as it has created between the sexes themselves.


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

skycloud86 said:


> You could just say "biological sex" or say "what sex were you born as?".


You don't think that they'd think of the reproductive act if I said that?



skycloud86 said:


> Although it does have largely biological origins, society has helped to create competition and rivalry between members of the same sex, almost as much as it has created between the sexes themselves.


This I know. Competition can be a good thing but I think society has made it unhealthy. It's a pity really. Why can't we all just... get along.  Seriously though, it makes it hard to date when the other is argumentative/resentful of everything you do. I stay away from those types of people but it seems like there is a lot more of them than before.


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## AVanover5 (Mar 31, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> According to the philosopher Chris Rock, men lie the most but women tell the biggest lies.


You just made my day ♥


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

AVanover5 said:


> You don't think that they'd think of the reproductive act if I said that?


Why would they with the second one? As for the first, wouldn't biological sex be a fairly well known term to most people?



> This I know. Competition can be a good thing but I think society has made it unhealthy. It's a pity really. Why can't we all just... get along.  Seriously though, it makes it hard to date when the other is argumentative/resentful of everything you do. I stay away from those types of people but it seems like there is a lot more of them than before.


Yes, I agree.


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