# No Sense of Self?



## Poagapedia (Jan 19, 2012)

Wow, you're really bad at not attacking people then. I ignored nothing.


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## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

Barbarella said:


> If I have it, I don't make use of it. I look to make sense of or explore what is already there - I don't search for overriding patterns. When approaching a problem, my first instinct is to research the background that goes into it. Once I get a sense for how the piece exists in a preexisting framework, I start searching for connections from there.


That sounds like what Si does, actually: "Here is the framework behind this new data - now how does this new piece of information fit into my existing framework?" I'm not the best at picking up Te, so I can't help you there, but that last part about socialising sounds a bit Fe-ish (or, well, Si-Fe-ish, since Ni-Fe works differently). 
That doesn't necessarily mean you're ISFJ or ESFJ, it's just my 2 cents: I haven't seen enough Fe in you to say for sure that you have it.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Barbarella said:


> If I have it, I don't make use of it. I look to make sense of or explore what is already there - I don't search for overriding patterns. When approaching a problem, my first instinct is to research the background that goes into it. Once I get a sense for how the piece exists in a preexisting framework, I start searching for connections from there.
> 
> My problem solving style is more like beginning from a point within a mindmap, looking for the "map" (where it belongs) and then seeing the links from there.
> 
> ...


That is so very much familiar to me. You really do seem to be Si. Si greatly wants to unite information too.

In fact, you seem to be a great example of what a Si dominant is actually like. You would make a good spokesperson. I try to take on the role but I'm bad at explaining my thoughts. :tongue:


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## AimfortheBrain (Nov 2, 2010)

@Barbarella I just wanted to say that I relate to soooo much of what you've written in this thread (including the part about having your threads die off before anyone ever responds). I don't know what my type is either. I've long suspected that I might be an Si dominant person but I almost don't want to claim it. And that map of how your mind works and how you are with people that @Owfin quoted is pretty much identical to how I operate. I wish I could help you find your type, since I know how unbelievably frustrating it is.


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## Barbarella (Jun 20, 2009)

AimfortheBrain said:


> @Barbarella I just wanted to say that I relate to soooo much of what you've written in this thread (including the part about having your threads die off before anyone ever responds). I don't know what my type is either. I've long suspected that I might be an Si dominant person but I almost don't want to claim it. And that map of how your mind works and how you are with people that @Owfin quoted is pretty much identical to how I operate. I wish I could help you find your type, since I know how unbelievably frustrating it is.


The next thing that I'm really doing is just looking at Dom/Ter loops. The whole thing is a rabbit hole, but I've been taking the approach of presenting myself so that I can step back and analyze according to what I know. Maybe you could free-write and then take a look at what you've written and how to it relates to your past/present. 

I think I'm just going to take Poagapedia's advice and take the actual test, but I'm apprehensive at finding out something about myself that I already knew. Really don't know since I know most personality questions.


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## Barbarella (Jun 20, 2009)

caramel_choctop said:


> That sounds like what Si does, actually: "Here is the framework behind this new data - now how does this new piece of information fit into my existing framework?" I'm not the best at picking up Te, so I can't help you there, but that last part about socialising sounds a bit Fe-ish (or, well, Si-Fe-ish, since Ni-Fe works differently).
> That doesn't necessarily mean you're ISFJ or ESFJ, it's just my 2 cents: I haven't seen enough Fe in you to say for sure that you have it.


I have some Fe awareness. It is as I'm taking in information / shooting off ideas, that I think about how they'd be received. When I write about an idea, I'm thinking about how it can be understood, and I do want some sort of acceptance of how I operate and of my ideas. That seems like Fe use to me. Not to mention when I'm stressed. I guess Fe comes out when I am ironing my ideas out, and when I'm unhappy.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Barbarella said:


> I think I'm just going to take Poagapedia's advice and take the actual test, but I'm apprehensive at finding out something about myself that I already knew. Really don't know since I know most personality questions.


If you are unsure about a test though, self analysis > test results. I test as INTP for some reason (maybe it's because I have learned to not repress my Ne?).



Barbarella said:


> I have some Fe awareness. It is as I'm taking in information / shooting off ideas, that I think about how they'd be received. When I write about an idea, I'm thinking about how it can be understood, and I do want some sort of acceptance of how I operate and of my ideas. That seems like Fe use to me. Not to mention when I'm stressed. I guess Fe comes out when I am ironing my ideas out, and when I'm unhappy.


That seems like Ne, which, as a counter force to Si, would fit this role well. It _might_ be Fe, but you otherwise seem to be ISTJ, so...


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## Barbarella (Jun 20, 2009)

Action Potential said:


> For someone who allegedly has no sense of self, you're certainly self-aware. Especially here. It's very interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> It could be, but like a few people are saying, you may want to check out the Enneagram forums as well and work at it from that angle. Personally, I think you should hang out with the ISFJs and see how you feel about it. It's just a hunch, but even if wrong, it's one more possibility eliminated.


I feel that the ISFJ mindset is how I feel when I am stressed / hyperaware around others. I can't quite explain it, but somehow their concerns become my concerns when I'm out of my element.

The enneagram is interesting to me because it's a lot looser in terms of defining individuals. I have always typed 5, sometimes 6 wing, occasionally 4 wing. 

For instance, I identify very strongly with this: 



> *Level 4*: Begin conceptualizing and fine-tuning everything before acting—working things out in their minds: model building, preparing, practicing, and gathering more resources. Studious, acquiring technique. Become specialized, and often "intellectual," often challenging accepted ways of doing things.
> *Level 5:* Increasingly detached as they become involved with complicated ideas or imaginary worlds. Become preoccupied with their visions and interpretations rather than reality. Are fascinated by off-beat, esoteric subjects, even those involving dark and disturbing elements. Detached from the practical world, a "disembodied mind," although high-strung and intense.


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## AimfortheBrain (Nov 2, 2010)

Barbarella said:


> The next thing that I'm really doing is just looking at Dom/Ter loops. The whole thing is a rabbit hole, but I've been taking the approach of presenting myself so that I can step back and analyze according to what I know. Maybe you could free-write and then take a look at what you've written and how to it relates to your past/present.
> 
> I think I'm just going to take Poagapedia's advice and take the actual test, but I'm apprehensive at finding out something about myself that I already knew. Really don't know since I know most personality questions.


Maybe I will try the free writing thing sometime and see if it helps. I have taken the official MBTI before though. There are two different ones (i think they're called step I and step II) and I only took one of them. I payed 40 dollars to take it online (big waste of money in hindsight) and it told me I was an ISFP. The reason I say it was a huge waste of money was because it was very, very similar to the free humanetrics test. I don't know if I believe the results or not and I was so close on some of the dichotomies (S/N and T/F if I remember correctly) that I didn't feel like I had gotten a straight answer.


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## Barbarella (Jun 20, 2009)

^That's what I suspect. I've been playing around w/ making an appointment for this coming week, but I know it'll just be some well-meaning buzzwords businesswoman turned counselor who will give me an online assessment and then interpret my results for me. She won't know enough abt cognitive function use or distressed cognitive function use to really give me an honest assessment, and after I've given her $75, I'm going to be sitting there on my PC w/ the same test questions I'd find on SimilarMinds. I remember SimilarMinds being said to be pretty close to / the same as the 'legit test', so I don't know where all the flack people give/get on fake online MBTI comes from. The questions are leakable like any other piece of printed material. But it's the one other rock I haven't turned over, so I don't know.

SM spits out INTP all the time, though, so maybe the real one is different and is worth a shot. Don't know if I'd be getting tests I and II or just test I, but for $75 I'd hope I'd get both. :/


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## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

Barbarella said:


> I have some Fe awareness. It is as I'm taking in information / shooting off ideas, that I think about how they'd be received. When I write about an idea, I'm thinking about how it can be understood, and I do want some sort of acceptance of how I operate and of my ideas. That seems like Fe use to me. Not to mention when I'm stressed. I guess Fe comes out when I am ironing my ideas out, and when I'm unhappy.


I don't... I honestly don't know if that sounds like Fe. I can't explain Fe, but have a look at some posts by some ENFJs (though make sure they're not mistyped. Jawz is one who I know for sure is ENFJ. They radiate Fe (albeit Fe-Ni). Also, there aren't many ESFJs on this forum, but go and visit them too, and give them some love.


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## Barbarella (Jun 20, 2009)

Oh sh*t there was a questionnaire ... 



> *1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?*
> 
> The lack of clear, logical analysis as a starting point for my thought processes.
> 
> ...


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## Barbarella (Jun 20, 2009)

caramel_choctop said:


> I don't... I honestly don't know if that sounds like Fe. *I can't explain Fe*, but have a look at some posts by some ENFJs (though make sure they're not mistyped. Jawz is one who I know for sure is ENFJ. They radiate Fe (albeit Fe-Ni). Also, there aren't many ESFJs on this forum, but go and visit them too, and give them some love.


That makes two of us. I can identify what is expected of me and what peoples' motivations are, but that's about it. I tend to be wrong abt anything that concerns Fe, though.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Barbarella said:


> That makes two of us. I can identify what is expected of me and what peoples' motivations are, but that's about it. I tend to be wrong abt anything that concerns Fe, though.


Barbarella, have you considered ISTP the Mechanics??? Fe is an inferior function as well not used much... just from reading your first post here i got the feeling of ISTP, did you consider that yet, i didnt' read all the posts, it's too much, so i just jumped in here...


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## Barbarella (Jun 20, 2009)

Too much!? >w<" 

Well, I have considered it. There's a sort of mental universe that ISTPs occupy that allows them to "see" components of physical systems with ease. I take in very little spatially, so I am fairly certain, however, that Se is not one of my conscious functions. 

Contrast with Tiasie's self assessment. There is nothing in my nature that suggests attention to the physical, concrete in that manner.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Barbarella said:


> That makes two of us. I can identify what is expected of me and what peoples' motivations are, but that's about it. I tend to be wrong abt anything that concerns Fe, though.


Have you seen this yet, this is some info on inferior Fe:

Excerpt from ; Quenk, Naomi L. (2002-08-13). Was That Really Me? : How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality (pp. 125-126). NB Ltd. Kindle Edition. 


*Eruptions of Inferior Extraverted Feeling*

When one or more of the preconditions for an eruption of the inferior function are present, Extraverted Feeling appears in its more exaggerated, disruptive form. In addition to the general conditions described in Chapter 4, Introverted Thinking types are vulnerable to the type-specific factors described below. 

*Typical Provocations or Triggers*

Being around people who are expressing strong emotions can serve as a trigger for Introverted Thinking types, especially if those people are criticizing the personal characteristics of the ISTP or INTP. Dealing with incompetence also serves as a major trigger. And, as is the case for Extraverted Thinking types, ISTPs and INTPs can be pushed into the grip when their own strong values and feelings are not recognized or affirmed. 

Others’ insensitivity to an Introverted Thinking type’s need for silence and solitude—“not enough time to recharge,” said one INTP—can also provoke the experience. The short-term, intense stress of a crisis situation, especially if others are expressing strong emotions and the ISTP or INTP is expected to respond to the emotion, is also a stimulus to the inferior function. Introverted Thinking types may themselves react with an uncharacteristic display of emotion or readily take offense at such times.

Other triggers are feeling controlled by arbitrary situations that limit their freedom of choice and action, and feeling that others are intruding on their space. Being treated unfairly and feeling unheard, unvalued, and excluded from important decision-making discussions can also push these types into their inferior function. An INTP covered many triggers to inferior Extraverted Feeling in her description: “other people becoming very emotional, excessive control from other people, others encroaching on my responsibilities, having to rely on others who—I feel—are not competent.” 

In projecting their inferior Extraverted Feeling onto others, Introverted Thinking types can readily see others’ easy expression of emotion as hysterical and out of control. Because of their fear of being consumed by strong, uncontrollable emotions, they assume that any expression of emotion is similarly out of bounds. ISTPs and INTPs may try to leave a situation in which highly charged feelings are being expressed, and if that is not possible, they may react with a full-blown episode of their inferior function. 

*Triggers and Stressors at Work* 

Introverted Thinking types find being micromanaged, supervising and working with incompetent, uncooperative people, and dealing with an overwhelming workload to be major sources of stress and dissatisfaction at work. Deadlines and an excessive workload can interfere with their need for time to focus in depth on the problems they are trying to solve for their organization. Incompetent people inhibit their reaching a solution or acquiring necessary information, and onerous, rigid supervision wastes their time and insults their sense of competence. One INTP listed as stressful “paperwork, especially if the purpose is unclear; overly directive managers and situations in which my autonomy is compromised; pointless meetings; and large ‘networking’ events.” An ISTP said, “Don’t tell me I can’t do something and try to restrict my freedom.” 

Both types, especially INTPs, find it stressful when they don’t have sufficient time to be alone and introvert, which makes multiple meetings and meandering agendas particularly noxious for them. Both types are also stressed when strong emotions are displayed at work, an event that often engages their inferior Extraverted Feeling. An INTP described her stressors as “emotionalized situations and interpersonal conflict.” An ISTP said he finds it stressful “when individuals get hung up on their personal preferences—refusing to let their emotions take a backseat, which becomes an obstacle.” 

In a work situation in which the particular stressors for Introverted Thinking types persist over a long period, an ISTP or INTP may be pushed into the grip very quickly and powerfully by the triggers described here. His or her subsequent demonstrations of “grip” behavior are likely to be frequent and pervasive. When persistent stress causes these types to be chronically in the grip of inferior Extraverted Feeling, episodes of intellectual inefficiency and poor use of logic can become habitual. Their typical and “normal” moderate dissatisfaction with their work situation can also become chronic. They may complain continually about others’ incompetence and the irrationality of management. They are likely to feel singled out for victimization and may imagine elaborate but baseless “conspiracies” being hatched by co-workers or supervisors that are designed to make the ISTP or INTP look bad and exclude him or her from decision-making roles at work. One INTP described this as “feeling paranoid.” 

INTPs tend to find more areas of life to be stressful than do ISTPs, and they have fewer available ways of coping with stress than any other type. However, ISTPs report the second-highest frequency (ISFPs being first) of hypertension and heart disease. INTPs, like INFPs, report these conditions relatively infrequently. 

The Form of the Inferior Like Introverted Feeling types, Introverted Thinking types often report becoming uncharacteristically sociable, outgoing, and expressive of feelings as part of their inferior function experience. This is reported by both males and females of these types and by individuals of all ages. However, the loss of social inhibition is likely to emerge eventually in easily expressed anger, being loud and perhaps inappropriate and obnoxious. Introverted Thinking types seem to report less pleasure in losing their inhibitions than do Introverted Feeling types, perhaps because they are uncomfortable extraverting their normally introverted critical Thinking. It may be that their naturally unspoken critical stance emerges more quickly than it does for ISFPs and INFPs.

As the Introverted Thinking type’s conscious control of differentiated Thinking starts to diminish, use of that dominant function along with auxiliary Sensing or Intuition becomes increasingly difficult. The internal struggle for control may be largely unobserved by others. But as time goes on, others may notice a certain slowness, vagueness, and distractibility replacing the sharp acuity that they are used to seeing in the ISTP or INTP. Introverted Thinking types report becoming illogical, inefficient, unfocused, and scattered. An INTP described becoming “emotional, edgy, disorganized, obsessive about details, confused, closed. Usually I am easygoing, centered, and creative and see lots of options.” An ISTP reported becoming “confused, disorganized, unable to focus. I lose track of my organizational strategies and get messy.” A young ISTP described himself as “slow and dimwitted, forgetting stuff all the time.” And a youthful INTP said, “I lack the mental energy and clarity that I ordinarily maintain. I’m not able to concentrate at all. I become completely illogical.”

As inferior Extraverted Feeling becomes more prominent in the demeanor of the Introverted Thinking type, it comes out in the form of logic being emphasized to an extreme, hypersensitivity to relationships, and emotionalism. For ISTPs, tertiary Intuition may aid and abet these forms, appearing as a conviction of some imagined “pattern” of others’ uncaring neglect of the ISTP’s needs and feelings. For INTPs, tertiary Sensing takes the form of an obsessive review of the facts and details that prove that others neglect the INTP’s needs and feelings. 

*Table 6 Dominant and Inferior Expressions of Extraverted Feeling*


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