# LSI and Collectivism



## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm trying to decide whether I am an LSI or ESI (or something else). LSI seems more likely but I relate more to the values of the Gamma quadra especially with its focus on individuality. I see myself as more Democratic than Aristocratic. I'm not really into the dramatic aspects of the Beta quadra either.

The reasons why I question ESI is that I'm a strong Enneagram 5w4 and even though I have some strong principles I'm not sure if I'm really an ethical person and I don't care so much about human relations. I have a hard time finding the border that separates logic and feelings. They seem to be made up of practically the same 'substance'. I know I'm an Introvert and I'm on the Se-Ni axis. I'm pretty sure I'm ISxP and not an INxJ. I'm not too organized or focused on the future.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

RK LK said:


> I'm trying to decide whether I am an LSI or ESI (or something else). LSI seems more likely but I relate more to the values of the Gamma quadra especially with its focus on individuality. I see myself as more Democratic than Aristocratic. I'm not really into the dramatic aspects of the Beta quadra either.
> 
> The reasons why I question ESI is that I'm a strong Enneagram 5w4 and even though I have some strong principles I'm not sure if I'm really an ethical person and I don't care so much about human relations. I have a hard time finding the border that separates logic and feelings. They seem to be made up of practically the same 'substance'. I know I'm an Introvert and I'm on the Se-Ni axis. I'm pretty sure I'm ISxP and not an INxJ. I'm not too organized or focused on the future.


Have you tried looking at Information elements - Wikisocion and just looking for which ones you value over their counterparts?
Have you looked at Delta any?
Your comment on :r: vs :L: is interesting, and not something that the :L: base of society would readily realize.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

.... Potential Gamma?!

This is a job fooorr....
@Entropic! @Night Huntress!


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

RK LK said:


> I'm not sure if I'm really an ethical person and I don't care so much about human relations.


I would think this was a persuasive argument against suggestive Fe.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Fried Eggz said:


> I would think this was a persuasive argument against suggestive Fe.


Odd thing is, people post stuff like OP, but by socionics, you have to like Fe or Fi. There really isn't an option for someone who says they hate both.

I took it more as anti-Fe as well.


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## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Have you tried looking at Information elements - Wikisocion and just looking for which ones you value over their counterparts?
> Have you looked at Delta any?
> Your comment on :r: vs :L: is interesting, and not something that the :L: base of society would readily realize.


You know what, I'm thinking I might actually be an INTp Ni-subtype. I always thought I had inferior Te 'cause I'm pretty lazy, but I guess that's somewhat common. Also I don't get too worked up about inconsistencies in people's reasoning. I'm open to a lot of weird ideas. I value harmony a lot, but not specifically with people, more in universal sense. I also value/enjoy Extroverted Sensing a lot, but I can also see it as an inferior function in a way. Seems more like tertiary function except I'm definitely an Introvert. There's been times were I've been good at predicting certain situations, but I wouldn't say I'm really that interested with that kind of stuff or even good at it. I think I'm more irrational.

Deltas seem overly moral to me. I'm much more laissez-faire with ethics. Also I don't relate to Si at all.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

RK LK said:


> You know what, I'm thinking I might actually be an INTp Ni-subtype. I always thought I had inferior Te 'cause I'm pretty lazy, but I guess that's somewhat common. Also I don't get too worked up about inconsistencies in people's reasoning. I'm open to a lot of weird ideas. I value harmony a lot, but not specifically with people, more in universal sense. I also value/enjoy Extroverted Sensing a lot, but I can also see it as an inferior function in a way. Seems more like tertiary function except I'm definitely an Introvert. There's been times were I've been good at predicting certain situations, but I wouldn't say I'm really that interested with that kind of stuff or even good at it. I think I'm more irrational.
> 
> Deltas seem overly moral to me. I'm much more laissez-faire with ethics. Also I don't relate to Si at all.


Are you using MBTI functions or Socionics elements? Because you keep talking about inferior and tertiary and such, which don't even really exist in socionics. Plus the elements are different than the functions in multiple ways.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

RK LK said:


> I'm trying to decide whether I am an LSI or ESI (or something else). LSI seems more likely but I relate more to the values of the Gamma quadra especially with its focus on individuality. I see myself as more Democratic than Aristocratic. I'm not really into the dramatic aspects of the Beta quadra either.
> 
> The reasons why I question ESI is that I'm a strong Enneagram 5w4 and even though I have some strong principles I'm not sure if I'm really an ethical person and I don't care so much about human relations. I have a hard time finding the border that separates logic and feelings. They seem to be made up of practically the same 'substance'. I know I'm an Introvert and I'm on the Se-Ni axis. I'm pretty sure I'm ISxP and not an INxJ. I'm not too organized or focused on the future.


First of all, are you 100% certain that you know what Aristo / Demo is?

Second of all, any enneatype can be any sociotype, although some correlations ARE more COMMON. But they are just that, correlations!

Third is very easy:

Would you rather:

-> Fix / understand a thing
-> Fix / understand a relation

?


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## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

Ixim said:


> First of all, are you 100% certain that you know what Aristo / Demo is?
> 
> Second of all, any enneatype can be any sociotype, although some correlations ARE more COMMON. But they are just that, correlations!
> 
> ...


 This is how I understand the Aristo/Demo dichotomy: Aristocrats judge people based on the groups they are a part of and Democrats look at individual qualities. I have observed some very Aristocratic behaviors with an ENFJ, an INFP, all ESTJs and ESTPs (and somewhat with other Aristocrats), and I find it extremely distasteful and ridiculous. Not to mention inaccurate. I do enjoy some humor based on stereotypes but I would never take them seriously. 


How do you distinguish a "thing" from a "relation"? Do you mean concrete vs. abstract?





Jeremy8419 said:


> Are you using MBTI functions or Socionics elements? Because you keep talking about inferior and tertiary and such, which don't even really exist in socionics. Plus the elements are different than the functions in multiple ways.


 I was confusing the two systems. I'm learning more on socionics right now.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

RK LK said:


> This is how I understand the Aristo/Demo dichotomy: Aristocrats judge people based on the groups they are a part of and Democrats look at individual qualities. I have observed some very Aristocratic behaviors with an ENFJ, an INFP, all ESTJs and ESTPs (and somewhat with other Aristocrats), and I find it extremely distasteful and ridiculous. Not to mention inaccurate.


It's easy to get tangled with aristocracy/democracy, so I don't think it'd helpful to start typing with this particular dichotomy. Judging people on the groups vs judging people on the basis of their individual qualities is an unnecessary simplification that doesn't reflect how this trait is manifested among quadras.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

RK LK said:


> This is how I understand the Aristo/Demo dichotomy: Aristocrats judge people based on the groups they are a part of and Democrats look at individual qualities. I have observed some very Aristocratic behaviors with an ENFJ, an INFP, all ESTJs and ESTPs (and somewhat with other Aristocrats), and I find it extremely distasteful and ridiculous. Not to mention inaccurate. I do enjoy some humor based on stereotypes but I would never take them seriously.
> 
> 
> How do you distinguish a "thing" from a "relation"? Do you mean concrete vs. abstract?
> ...


You can find everything you need here:

Reinin Dichotomies: Study Results - Wikisocion

But the real test would be, ofc, how'd you act irl on the spot. Say that you see a nice girl. Will you group her under "blondes / brunettes / red hairs etc(obvious classification is obvious-ie: of all blondes in a club, just THAT ONE and not a single other fills the critteria / is the best choice)", "tall / short etc(again)" or will you just say "what a nice / sexy / etc girl(this applies to this scenario directly hence no classification)" and not classify her. The gist is that we are using both dichotomies, but one is prefered-just the same story as with Jung's dichotomies and MBTI.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

You say you're not delta but I think you are delta.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

RK LK said:


> This is how I understand the Aristo/Demo dichotomy: Aristocrats judge people based on the groups they are a part of and Democrats look at individual qualities. I have observed some very Aristocratic behaviors with an ENFJ, an INFP, all ESTJs and ESTPs (and somewhat with other Aristocrats), and I find it extremely distasteful and ridiculous. Not to mention inaccurate. I do enjoy some humor based on stereotypes but I would never take them seriously.
> 
> 
> How do you distinguish a "thing" from a "relation"? Do you mean concrete vs. abstract?
> ...


/thumbs up.

Also, to echo @To_august , aristocratic/democratic is probably one of the least well-described and understood reinin dichotomies. It's near worthless for most people's usage.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Way too little info to type from, fill out a questionnaire or something, and don't start with the fucking Reinin dichotomies as a way to type yourself. They're way too vague for a beginner to understand within the context of the system and how the function stackings cause them.


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## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

Ixim said:


> But the real test would be, ofc, how'd you act irl on the spot. Say that you see a nice girl. Will you group her under "blondes / brunettes / red hairs etc(obvious classification is obvious-ie: of all blondes in a club, just THAT ONE and not a single other fills the critteria / is the best choice)", "tall / short etc(again)" or will you just say "what a nice / sexy / etc girl(this applies to this scenario directly hence no classification)" and not classify her. The gist is that we are using both dichotomies, but one is prefered-just the same story as with Jung's dichotomies and MBTI.


 I usually say "what a good looking girl". I do notice qualities like hair color but I don't necessarily group them into categories. I might not even group them in terms of "blonde", "brunette" , or "red-head" because that seems too simple. There's an infinite amount of shades of hair, textures, volume, etc... I'm really interested in the uniqueness of people's looks. The interconnection of different attributes, or simply the whole being how it is. I'm not completely immune to the generalization of people, but I see it more as a hindrance to overcome than something to rely on.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

RK LK said:


> I usually say "what a good looking girl". I do notice qualities like hair color but I don't necessarily group them into categories. I might not even group them in terms of "blonde", "brunette" , or "red-head" because that seems too simple. There's an infinite amount of shades of hair, textures, volume, etc... I'm really interested in the uniqueness of people's looks. The interconnection of different attributes, or simply the whole being how it is. I'm not completely immune to the generalization of people, but I see it more as a hindrance to overcome than something to rely on.


That sounds like a demo trait, indeed. So, we've narrowed it to Alpha and Gamma.


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## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

Here's a short survey. I did a 21 Questions thread over here:* http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-esi-vs-ili-vs-lsi-vs-other.html#post19843658

Tell me about yourself.*

I am that I am. 

*What do you do for a living and/or study and how did you come to choose or not choose that vocation and/or study?*
I go to community college and do a bunch of odd jobs. Landscaping kind of stuff usually. I don't work very often but I live frugally. I don't plan on working for some corporate business or anything like that. I'm not into that and they wouldn't hire me anyways.

*What are your interests and hobbies?*
Music, MBTI/Socionics, nature, contemplation, existing, watching youtube videos.
*
What have people seen as your weaknesses? What do you dislike about yourself?*
People probably think I'm too reserved and I don't use my talents for some cause or work. I don't like how lazy I am but I'm learning to accept it.

*What have people seen as your strengths? What do you like about yourself?*
I'm a talented musician for one. I play a bunch of different instruments. I like how I go against the grain and it takes me to weird places.

*In what areas of your life would you like help?*
I need help with 'official' form filling kind of stuff. Practical and social matters.

*What are your religious or spiritual beliefs and perspectives?*
I got into Daoism when I was sixteen and that led to an interest in Eastern philosophy. My ideas are always changing in terms of specifics but I lean towards more 'nihilistic' philosophies. Right now I'm into anti-ideology, the destruction of all ideologies, specifically the ideology of anti-ideology. Seems paradoxical, but I think a belief system should based on the elimination of itself. I think ideology is the beginning of hierarchy and the treating of people and things as pawns towards some nonexistent goal. Anti-ideology treats itself and the mind that conceives as irrelevant instead of projecting artificial realities onto the matrix. Not sure if it makes any sense, but it's what I've been thinking about lately.

*What did you do last Friday?*
I don't remember. Probably nothing in particular.
*
Is this restaurant run properly?*
No.


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