# Why does Fi get such a bad rap?



## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

I've noticed something of a trend over the years, particularly among NTP types, where people will mention disliking Fi, or even going to an extreme of disliking the very notion of people using it. 

Do you dislike Fi? Why or why not?

If not, why do you think it might be getting a bad reputation?

And more importantly (no matter which way you think) what do you define Fi as?


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Fi makes a great theme for a movie - like BraveHeart, but unless you have a huge bunch of charisma to go with - Fi is just a pain in the butt in the boardroom. 

The best definition of Fe and Fi has to emphasize that they are both evaluative. What should or shouldn't be is a waste of time to keep going around and around on to someone charged with "what policy or action handles things - from where we are with what IS, or even "what would be the desired outcome?". You can't work to a solution if you keep stewing and stay stuck on defining what is wrong. 

Fe at least builds a consensus or a prediction about how to move forward - other than to just battle to the death.


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## Tezcatlipoca (Jun 6, 2014)

Edite


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## OberonHuxley (Jun 2, 2013)

Because they attribute FI to stubborn individualism which really is a product of the entire personality. In other words because they don't really know what FI is.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

OberonHuxley said:


> Because they attribute FI to stubborn individualism which really is a product of the entire personality. In other words because they don't really know what FI is.


I'm fine with individualism, in fact I 'm attracted to it and I believe in it for myself. I can even respect or work around stubbornness.

I have to limit contact with people who do not want to take charge in any functional way - but truely love to bitch about who ever is in charge. Not saying this is automatic or inevitable from an Fi user - It IS what gives Fi a bad wrap when it does happen.

Main character of BraveHeart - I wouldn't call that stubborn, Heroic in his own way, what is right IS right. I just don't want to go to work with that guy.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

OberonHuxley said:


> Because they attribute FI to stubborn individualism which really is a product of the entire personality. In other words because they don't really know what FI is.


Relational ethics is probably the closest one will get to a simplified definition of Fi. Its basically how I relate to everything & everyone around me. The focus is on the relationship between the self & anything exterior, unlike with Fe, where the focus is on the interaction of exterior objects & their relational states (people).

For example when group cohesion is threatened, a Fi user will grasp this and distance itself or try to fix it's relationship with the group or some members of it, while a Fe user will try to influence the group & fix it up in a "I need to somehow make Mary & John get along again..hhmm.."

Priorities are different & in general people with Fi preference are less emotionally expressive or engaging, more inclined towards dissent & the assertion of personal values, even when faced with peer pressure, which gives the Fi users that vibe of being an individualist.

*In a way Fi is sort of Like Ti, neither relies on consensus & both prefer their own subjective evaluation over mutual agreed upon rules, just in different areas, so i often reach similar conclusions to Ti users, but for different reasons.*

@Old Intern

Theoretically an ExTP's reaction to Fi is supposed to be this:


> More importance is given to these relations as they pertain to objective mutual benefit; entertaining one another and accomplishing mutual goals are seen as the main focus, rather than seeing the relationships as rewarding in and of themselves. The individual does not expect others to be actively aware or concerned with his own personal sentiments, and so sees little reason to be concerned with those of others, unless they have direct consequences for the individual. Statements by other persons reflecting their inner feelings are not fully registered by the individual if not accompanied by external emotional expression or actions. Suggestions that the individual may have acted unethically in the eyes of another person who has not clearly expressed disapproval are met with bafflement by the individual; those that are expressed without tact are either dismissed or reacted to aggressively.


To me this seems consistent with your complaints thus far.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

LostFavor said:


> I've noticed something of a trend over the years, particularly among NTP types, where people will mention disliking Fi, or even going to an extreme of disliking the very notion of people using it.


to be fair, just as many of us NFPs hate Ti (I know I do lol)



> Do you dislike Fi? Why or why not?


no, I love it. it's my favorite function



> If not, why do you think it might be getting a bad reputation?


that said, I can understand why many (especially NTPs) would hate it.
- it's stubborn as hell, often to the point of being anti-intellectual 
- it can have a very "because I said so!" quality to it, similar to an authoritarian STJ
- it insists that it's feelings are always important and relevant
- it can be extremely self righteous, even hatefully so



> And more importantly (no matter which way you think) what do you define Fi as?


- a tendency to reflect on and value one's own feelings "why do I feel this way?" "is this really _me_?" "what do I really feel?" "how do I vibe with this thing/person?"
- a strong sense of moral _convictions_ which one experiences as a visceral reaction when something goes against them
- "still waters run deep" sums up FPs pretty well


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

@FreeBeer yes the bafflement part I can relate to. but I'm old enough to not blow people off about wanting whatever they want. 

Just don't get righteous on me about what I ought to know or ought to do - if it doesn't make sense. I have no sacred cows and don't believe in them. I mean we all need some baseline like not lying and not killing - but beyond that if it doesn't make sense don't bother me with it. I get how some things are counter-productive, or not worth paying the fine for etc. And I will make room for what other people want if they are honest enough to say - I want this, or I like this because I like it.

What bothers the heck out of me is when people talk about something that "sounds nice" or "sounds politically correct" but I don't see any cause and effect possibilities for whatever it is to be workable or effective to address whatever the concern is - it just Sounds nice - what I hear - sappy platitude pushing.

What I run into on the forum - the idea of something sounds offensive - in the evaluative mind of the Fi - at that point I should sugar coat something that to me is neutral observation to begin with?


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## stargazing grasshopper (Oct 25, 2013)

I'd likely benefit from being somewhat more balanced & wouldn't mind sacrificing a little bit of my Te in exchange for a little bit more Fi.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

For INTPs it's the last function and for ENTPs it's second to last. Theoretically we don't like Fi or Te.
Whenever I think of Fi, I think of those closing moments of a cartoon where the main character (after committing bubblingly moronic actions, finally admits that he feels bad and is guilty.) The emphasis being on the last part where the speaker talks about his own "deep feelings". Either way, "personal aruguments" tend to piss off Ti users. To us, the truth is impersonal and objective, so we use impersonal and objective reasons. There's never a good guy and a bad guy. It's easier to punish everyone.
In my opinion it may be useful to create social change, like Ti uses it's own rebellious nature to change the norms in science or philosophy. But it's not my perojative to think about "my feelings, this feeling" so I just see it as perfectly useless in my life. Just like trains are important but I have no reason to learn how to drive a train so I don't care about trains.


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## Bahburah (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't know what your talking about. 

I see it as what I should aim for when feeling, it's certainly more grounded than than Fe.

But I guess I have Ti to do that, yet usually don't because of the oppressive shackles of Fe. 

So thats why I respect Fi.




It depends on the person, I currently know 2 ISFPs:

One that I used to go to school with that is the epitome of bad Fi.

Then one that I play in a band with (which you would think would bring out the worse in Fi) thats totally chill and we get along great.


I used to play in a band with an ESFP and ISFP and that was a horrible experience because of Fe.


So it depends.
I usually get along with them. I think it's because I have strong Ti and think that I get my values from there.

Altho I remember being at a party with a bunch of Fi users and found myself liking the few of other Fe users there.


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## Mimic octopus (May 3, 2014)

I have a problem with the fact that some functions get criticized more than others do. Because saying some functions are better than others means that some types are better than others, which is just not true according to MBTI theory.


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## NonyaBiznus (Dec 28, 2012)

Don't let that "Unknown Personality" fool you, I am a stone-cold dominant introverted thinker. I'm 99.6732% sure.

I don't hate Fi, but i just don't understand it. The idea of it makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would you ever let your emotions take so much control in your head? That's like putting a bunch of hamsters in charge of flying a space ship! sure they're cute and cuddly, but they can also switch into vicious little scamps at a moment's notice! They aren't fit to fly a spacecraft! They belong in cages!

Now obviously a Ti dominant's hamsters will not be nearly as well trained as an Fi dominant. But they are still hamsters. and it confuses me why you would ever take them out of their cage outside of playtime.

That is all


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Some of the major complaints and accusations I tend to hear regarding Fi are either misconceptions, or people attributing negative traits to a function they don't have when in fact those traits are things _Every_ type is capable of having - such as selfish or stubborn. 

I think the cultural bias towards extroversion comes into play when people try to understand introverted functions, resulting in them making negative associations in contrast to positive associations with extroverted functions. A huge example of this is the idea that Fe is what makes people kind, considerate, generous, tactful, friendly, aware of others needs, and cheerful, while trying to make Fi a contrast to that resulting in seeing it as being self-centered, rebellious, sellfish, careless of others, closed-minded, anti-social, and depressed. However it simply is NOT the case that ANY of the pairs of functions have a 'good one' vs 'bad one' relationship. Both Fi and Fe users can be generous or selfish, closed-minded or accepting, happy or depressed, etc. 

Another common complaint is that it is supposedly 'illogical' but I think usually what really causes people to think this is a difference in values. If you're not working toward the same goals, or not placing weight on the same information, then you can miss the 'sense' of what someone else is doing or saying. I think Fi sees the practical results of different emotional states which affect more than simply people's feelings. If you're excluding the effect emotions can have, then one course of action may look the most efficient, but if someone is going to be emotionally effected by that course of action in a way that will bring about more complications, it may not actually be the most effective choice. When considering a situation, Fi (and Fe) applies its understanding of the cause and effect relationships between how things affect emotions in people and how those emotions then affect other things. I feel like many Ts resent the fact that emotions do have practical effects and are annoyed by the inconvenience of additional factors to consider which aren't among the data they prefer to analyze. And of course Fs do the same, but with opposite types of information - leading to both types resenting eachother and stirring up hostility.

Also people tend to mistake the term 'Feeling' as just being all about emotions, and not only that but tend to think first of immature expressions of emotion and whineyness and a general lack of sorting out priorities. Feeling functions are not a simple case of 'this makes me/people happy' or 'this makes me/people mad'. Fi is concerned with finding meaning and value, it's concerned with determining what is important, beyond simple personal emotions - but people are thrown off by the term 'Feeling' and think it's nothing but 'gushing' or 'brooding'.


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## Mimic octopus (May 3, 2014)

NonyaBiznus said:


> Don't let that "Unknown Personality" fool you, I am a stone-cold dominant introverted thinker. I'm 99.6732% sure.
> 
> I don't hate Fi, but i just don't understand it. The idea of it makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would you ever let your emotions take so much control in your head? That's like putting a bunch of hamsters in charge of flying a space ship! sure they're cute and cuddly, but they can also switch into vicious little scamps at a moment's notice! They aren't fit to fly a spacecraft! They belong in cages!
> 
> ...


I get what your saying but really your analogy would apply better to Ne or something. Jung called all thinking and feeling dominants as rational personalities who view the world through a set of principles, rules and structure. IXFPs may act quirky and cute or whatever but ultimately on some level are pretty down to earth people, this is why you'll probably more likely see an EXFP (sensing or feeling dominant = irrational type) say or do something crazy and out of the norm.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Because its not an honest one. One Fe and Fi type can do exactly the same things with the same reasons but Fi will change their value system so that what they do is right. They are a good person. They chose that they are a good person and 100% believe it and try to change other persons to be good based on their personal value system.


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## Mimic octopus (May 3, 2014)

Captain Mclain said:


> Because its not an honest one. One Fe and Fi type can do exactly the same things with the same reasons but Fi will change their value system so that what they do is right. They are a good person. They chose that they are a good person and 100% believe it and try to change other persons to be good based on their personal value system.


So you would like Fi people to change based on your value system?

And honesty is one of the main features of Fi.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Patrick_1 said:


> So you would like Fi people to change based on your value system?
> 
> And honesty is one of the main features of Fi.


I did say that. But to an extent all Fe types change their value system to an objective one. So they might not see the problem in changing it.

I don't see how choosing to be innocent is honest.


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## Mimic octopus (May 3, 2014)

Captain Mclain said:


> I did say that. But to an extent all Fe types change their value system to an objective one. So they might not see the problem in changing it.
> 
> I don't see how choosing to be innocent is honest.


Ok, I didn't say that it was though. I think you could argue that Fi is sometimes self righteous but a lot of the descriptions and what gets said about Fi is about staying true to yourself and an internal value system. If you talk to an Fe user they will sometimes agree with what you say just to be polite and keep that positive rapport whereas an Fi user will go out of their way to not even make a small lie. This is why people accuse Fi people of being rude but I've never heard anyone say Fi was dishonest.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Patrick_1 said:


> Ok, I didn't say that it was though. I think you could argue that Fi is sometimes self righteous but a lot of the descriptions and what gets said about Fi is about staying true to yourself and an internal value system. If you talk to an Fe user they will sometimes agree with what you say just to be polite and keep that positive rapport whereas an Fi user will go out of their way to not even make a small lie. This is why people accuse Fi people of being rude but I've never heard anyone say Fi was dishonest.


I think Fi is more fragile thats why Fi can't stand those lies. Fe is robust. So in order to defend Fi the person can do the evilest of things.


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

I'd guess it's because people misinterpret the functions/don't read deeper on the topic. Or maybe because they like to attribute their inability to get along with certain people to it being that person's inherent nature that's the problem.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Fi killed my family and left me blind


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Old Intern said:


> @FreeBeer yes the bafflement part I can relate to. but I'm old enough to not blow people off about wanting whatever they want.
> 
> Just don't get righteous on me about what I ought to know or ought to do - if it doesn't make sense. I have no sacred cows and don't believe in them. I mean we all need some baseline like not lying and not killing - but beyond that if it doesn't make sense don't bother me with it. I get how some things are counter-productive, or not worth paying the fine for etc. And I will make room for what other people want if they are honest enough to say - I want this, or I like this because I like it.
> 
> ...


In my experience these issues mostly appear when interacting with Fi doms (IxFP) or with relatively young people of this type. ExFPs may have a more relativist live and let live attitude & if one is cynical & disillusioned Fi user hitting late 20s you can expect some downright brutal Te-ish non emotive practicality that skims the edges of moral ambiguity.

..because life happens to us all. No reason to sugar coat it.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

i've noticed the 'f' function in general gets a bad rep regardless of it's strength of preference.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

laurie17 said:


> I'd guess it's because people misinterpret the functions/don't read deeper on the topic. Or maybe because they like to attribute their inability to get along with certain people to it being that person's inherent nature that's the problem.


i agree, that the disliking of everybody that belongs to that particular function is rooted in lack of self awareness and inability to want to hear anyone else's view but their own. i don't disagree with every argument based on fe i hear.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

FreeBeer said:


> In my experience these issues mostly appear when interacting with Fi doms (IxFP) or with relatively young people of this type. ExFPs may have a more relativist live and let live attitude & if one is cynical & disillusioned Fi user hitting late 20s you can expect some downright brutal Te-ish non emotive practicality that skims the edges of moral ambiguity.
> 
> ..because life happens to us all. No reason to sugar coat it.


I'm curious - would you care to give an example of brutal TE?


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Old Intern said:


> I'm curious - would you care to give an example of brutal TE?


 I will not care to. Its a waste of time better spent elsewhere.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

FreeBeer said:


> I will not care to. Its a waste of time better spent elsewhere.


jeez what a teaser 

:laughing:


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Old Intern said:


> jeez what a teaser
> 
> :laughing:


:kitteh: your answer is there if you know what Te is.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

@FreeBeer , I have trouble with how TE skims moral ambiguity - or what that means. Truth is truth, but then see, for me the question becomes how to use truth productively or counter-productively_ it doesn't make sense to be counter productive. _Where does factual truth become immoral?


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## WindScale (Jun 16, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> Fi makes a great theme for a movie - like BraveHeart


Aha, I really liked that portion of your response. :laughing:


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Old Intern said:


> @_FreeBeer_ , I have trouble with how TE skims moral ambiguity - or what that means. Truth is truth, but then see, for me the question becomes how to use truth productively or counter-productively_ it doesn't make sense to be counter productive. _Where does factual truth become immoral?


I'll take a crack at it. I think "brutal and/or morally questionable Te" can come in the form of stuff like: Valuing efficiency over people. Valuing the pushing of objective "truth" on others, regardless of whether they're even interested in listening. 

Essentially like a bulldozer in the middle of a crowded area. It has a purpose it is supposed to accomplish and anything, or anyone, that gets in the way is just considered an "unfortunate" casualty.


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## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

Yea I don't know of any good Fi rappers either. Eminem and Kanye are pretty terrible. Tupac's alright though.


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## absylution (Aug 8, 2014)

Because Fi is associated with intense self-focus that Fe users see as frustrating. Some Fe users feel misunderstood when communicating with Fi because they don't realize that Fi lives "in the moment". If an Fe user loves an Fi user, but criticizes them one day, the Fi user will assume it is this feeling of criticism and disappointment which is prevalent in the Fe user's perception of him. When in reality, the Fe user loves the Fi user, they are not "trapped" with a negative disposition as they have displayed. The Fi will then begin to dwell in their sorrows because they don't recognize any warmth from the Fe user to themselves, and feel hurt and judged in the process.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

LostFavor said:


> I'll take a crack at it. I think "brutal and/or morally questionable Te" can come in the form of stuff like: Valuing efficiency over people. Valuing the pushing of objective "truth" on others, regardless of whether they're even interested in listening.
> 
> Essentially like a bulldozer in the middle of a crowded area. It has a purpose it is supposed to accomplish and anything, or anyone, that gets in the way is just considered an "unfortunate" casualty.


Okay, this might be a little like what I heard from an ENTJ about TE vs. Ti. If Frustrated, Ti - getting impatient, experiencing difficulty getting through, or finds it necessarily to criticize, or make a demand in order to get a project on track - We can be very cutting - like a scalpel. Te is more like a baseball bat.

Even if facts are used to execute - pushing truth on someone who is not listening (not logical) can still be an an Fi process or priority, or goal (BraveHeart).

I've seen ENFP complaint (on the forum) about someone in their life not listening to logic. What it looked like to me was the party not listening to logic simply did not care about the same end goal. The ENFP assumes, a priority or objective that to them seems essential but the other party sees something else as MORE essential or pivotal. You can give perfect directions of how to go to Florida; the other person just doesn't care about going to Florida - Fi won't see the issue as something neutral like going to Florida.

On the other hand, sometimes this "casualty creating" is how you see it, but people are not as hurt as you think. I've seen this with my Dad, ESFP, sometimes he thinks he's being tough but I think he's made a reasonable choice.

Where I see *Fi having an advantage at times*, might be that you do get to that breaking point -bulldozer mode. Ti with Ne anyways, will sometimes waste time and energy "tinkering" and tweaking communications, thinking something can be fixed when having a blow-out fight would be messy but faster.


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> @FreeBeer , I have trouble with how TE skims moral ambiguity - or what that means. Truth is truth, but then see, for me the question becomes how to use truth productively or counter-productively_ it doesn't make sense to be counter productive._


_

The primary issue may be that Te does not view morality as having a place within the decision making process. Nor is any sense of truth tied to notions of right and wrong. The actions taken and the decisions made are always relative to the objective at hand. Even seemingly moral actions in that context, are not for the sake of morality, but for the sake of the objective. Anything that detracts from that objective, or that seeks to deviate the process away from it and towards something else, is dismissed, or attacked if necessary. 




Where does factual truth become immoral?

Click to expand...

If you're dealing with strong Te, especially in the case of NTJ, Fi is the valuation function. This causes a tendency towards moral skepticism. In that sense that there are no "moral facts," no "objective morality," and any association between the two or conclusion relative to them is illusory or self created.

"Truth" is 100% amoral to us. 




Even if facts are used to execute - pushing truth on someone who is not listening (not logical) can still be an an Fi process or priority, or goal (BraveHeart).

Click to expand...

You seem prone to this distorted conclusion, that anytime Te opposes you or anyone else they are doing it for Fi reasons._


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## snowbell (Apr 2, 2012)

Aelthwyn said:


> Some of the major complaints and accusations I tend to hear regarding Fi are either misconceptions, or people attributing negative traits to a function they don't have when in fact those traits are things _Every_ type is capable of having - such as selfish or stubborn.
> 
> I think the cultural bias towards extroversion comes into play when people try to understand introverted functions, resulting in them making negative associations in contrast to positive associations with extroverted functions. A huge example of this is the idea that Fe is what makes people kind, considerate, generous, tactful, friendly, aware of others needs, and cheerful, while trying to make Fi a contrast to that resulting in seeing it as being self-centered, rebellious, sellfish, careless of others, closed-minded, anti-social, and depressed. However it simply is NOT the case that ANY of the pairs of functions have a 'good one' vs 'bad one' relationship. Both Fi and Fe users can be generous or selfish, closed-minded or accepting, happy or depressed, etc.
> 
> ...


*hugs post*. 



Captain Mclain said:


> I think Fi is more fragile thats why Fi can't stand those lies. Fe is robust. *So in order to defend Fi the person can do the evilest of things.*


How do you get to "fragile"? After all Fi-doms are usually said to become rather stubborn in defense of one of their "closely held values", rather than just curling up into a ball and crying as some might believe. 

And isn't this moving closer to everybody's inferior function (something we don't know or understand well so we push to avoid it as much as possible thus becoming more and more unbalanced, and potentially dangerous to ourselves and others)?


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Old Intern said:


> Okay, this might be a little like what I heard from an ENTJ about TE vs. Ti. If Frustrated, Ti - getting impatient, experiencing difficulty getting through, or finds it necessarily to criticize, or make a demand in order to get a project on track - We can be very cutting - like a scalpel. Te is more like a baseball bat.
> 
> Even if facts are used to execute - pushing truth on someone who is not listening (not logical) can still be an an Fi process or priority, or goal (BraveHeart).
> 
> ...


Yes, I would say baseball bat is a good way to put it. Though that might conjure images more akin to Se than Te for some people.

It is certainly interesting to see how things look to the person vs. how they look on the outside. I can be brutal sometimes, but most of the time when I "lose it," I'm still only at 50% power (or less). Like I could "lose it" a hell of a lot more. And I'll feel like I'm really letting the other person have it, despite knowing deep down that I'm holding a ton back.

The moments when I'm truly brutal are when nothing is held back and that's just not pleasant for anyone, myself included (mind you, I'm not talking about physically losing it - more just emotions/words/etc.). That one isn't completely perception-based either. I'm had people tell me on rare occasions (seeing a conflict from the outside) that I took it way too far.

Concerning your Braveheart reference, although I can see why you'd come to that conclusion, I think in many instances (particular with immature Te-dom or Te-aux) there can be a burning need to push the "objective truth" on other people. Not necessarily because of anything pertaining to Fi or a "special cause," but simply for the sake of truth itself. Or for the sake of seeing if "pushing" the truth against sometimes immovable people will leave the truth intact, or if it will not shatter against the pressure.

I've noticed a lot of people tend to think that because Te is a thinking function and Fi is such a powerfully opinionated function, that Te-dom/aux are often driven highly by Fi. I've fallen into believing that too, but I'm not sure it's quite the way to look at it. In fact, I think the main reason it gets a pass is because Fi is considered an "emotional" function and human beings are almost always driven by emotions at their core, right?

But the truth is more likely that Te has its own set of drives concerning things like truth and Fi just amplifies that drive like a megaphone sometimes, especially in the Te-dom/aux types. Contrary to the popular interpretations, I believe Fi can directly contradict Te as well. I have seen, for example, an ENTJ push aside the raw efficiency in favor of a more subjective, value-based "cause" countless times.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

So little time so much BS.
I'll just use my Fi to realize that trying to convince random avatars on the internet is not really worth it today.
Making food and reading a book on the other hand is pretty much worth it.


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

But Fe also have a bad rap.


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