# INTJ or not INTJ?



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

jetser said:


> Then we have two different understandings of function theory. Not much to discuss here.


What theory are you utilizing whereby you dismiss INTJ as a possibility for somebody due to not being able to observe _Fi_?


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Turi said:


> What theory are you utilizing whereby you dismiss INTJ as a possibility for somebody due to not being able to observe _Fi_?


The theory in which INTJ looks like this:










If you use a different theory that's fine but I won't be able to argue with it.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

jetser said:


> The theory in which INTJ looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The tertiary function isn't supposed to be a strength, you realise this?
Unless you're looking for an INTJ-Fi subtype in which cases you'll also want to look for a Te weakness.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Turi said:


> The tertiary function isn't supposed to be a strength, you realise this?
> Unless you're looking for an INTJ-Fi subtype in which cases you'll also want to look for a Te weakness.


I wasn't talking about strength, I was talking about that it shows itself.
Usually in the way of being a bit childish - compared to the main functions.

This is Walter White getting angry about something and then behaving a little childish - compared to his normal self.






I'm looking for signs like this to identify a tertiary function.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

jetser said:


> I'm looking for signs like this to identify a tertiary function.


How does your own 'Si' manifest?


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Turi said:


> How does your own 'Si' manifest?


Tertiary Si manifests as a tool to look back, searching for past data, past experiences to balance out new ideas.
Sort of will look like a loop back and forth: jumping ahead and then reaching back, and start it over..

But I'm not actually sure that I'm IN*P. It's just temporary a label.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Part III

Palpatine: INTJ










Gus Fring: not INTJ (INFJ)










Kurisu Makise: INTJ










Dr. Mann: not INTJ (ESTJ)


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@jetser
Is *Palpatine* actually an introvert?

*Gus Fring* as F - is this some kind of joke? He could be ENTJ that gets mistyped as INTJ, but other than that I don't see the problem with his usual typing. This is very common, because ENTJ is the extravert type with the most self-control so as they strive for their external goals, they can come off as no-fun, cold, robotic, or even asocial. Gus isn't actually asocial though - look at how he cultivates his role in communities in general.

@Aluminum Frost
Are people actually dumb enough to type *RP McMurphy* as INTJ? That is even bad by the typical standards.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> @jetser
> Is *Palpatine* actually an introvert?
> 
> *Gus Fring* as F - is this some kind of joke? He could be ENTJ that gets mistyped as INTJ, but other than that I don't see the problem with his usual typing. This is very common, because ENTJ is the extravert type with the most self-control so as they strive for their external goals, they can come off as no-fun, cold, robotic, or even asocial. Gus isn't actually asocial though - look at how he cultivates his role in communities in general.
> ...


Idk if I've seen him specifically typed as it but I've seen his archetype typed as such.


----------



## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm sorry but I'm gonna claim Palpatine as one of us, the guy is intolerable but he embodies the mentor/pedagogue archetype to a point where he actually "mentors" anyone that comes his way.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> *Gus Fring* as F - is this some kind of joke? He could be ENTJ that gets mistyped as INTJ, but other than that I don't see the problem with his usual typing. This is very common, because ENTJ is the extravert type with the most self-control so as they strive for their external goals, they can come off as no-fun, cold, robotic, or even asocial. Gus isn't actually asocial though - look at how he cultivates his role in communities in general.


Yep, and he actually blends in with no problem. Unusual for an ENTJ, also rare for an INTJ.
But if I had to pick one of two, I'd pick ENTJ too. It would be extremely hard for an ENTJ to hide his real face (as he has no tools, no weapons to really calculate people's reactions) but at least he would have no problem with it _internally_.
An INTJ though...couldn't live with the thought for long that he is being thought for somebody he is not.


But I'll stick with INFJ for now until I get some more detailed analysis about his character.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

jetser said:


> Yep, and he actually blends in with no problem. Unusual for an ENTJ, also rare for an INTJ.
> But if I had to pick one of two, I'd pick ENTJ too. It would be extremely hard for an ENTJ to hide his real face (as he has no tools, no weapons to really calculate people's reactions) but at least he would have no problem with it _internally_.
> An INTJ though...couldn't live with the thought that he is thought for somebody he is not for long.
> 
> ...


INTJs don't blend in but ENFJs do?


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Some people say Bruce Lee is INTJ, most say ISTP. I think he's an INFJ


----------



## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Some people say Bruce Lee is INTJ, most say ISTP. I think he's an INFJ


Yeah lol, I'm not awfully familiar with his work, but I was shocked to see him typed as a thinker (be it TJ or Ti dom), even using the below cuts as evidence. The interviewer hasn't got a clue and he can't get it either. Try to rationalize it... you can't because it's not thought-out, it's experience, perception with feeling nuances... Defies rigid (thinking) categorizations, "styles are crystallizations" and instead sees dynamic movement everywhere, "water can flow or it can crash" therefore you must become water -- alas, 'tis beautiful, but pretty irrational at its roots.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> INTJs don't blend in but *ENFJs* do?


You mean ENTJs?


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

jetser said:


>


Being calculating is INFJ > INTJ?


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

DOGSOUP said:


> Yeah lol, I'm not awfully familiar with his work, but I was shocked to see him typed as a thinker (be it TJ or Ti dom), even using the below cuts as evidence. The interviewer hasn't got a clue and he can't get it either. Try to rationalize it... you can't because it's not thought-out, it's experience, perception with feeling nuances... Defies rigid (thinking) categorizations, "styles are crystallizations" and instead sees dynamic movement everywhere, "water can flow or it can crash" therefore you must become water -- alas, 'tis beautiful, but pretty irrational at its roots.


He's more about the philosophy of martial arts and all that mumbo jumbo that STs wouldn't waste time on. He'd also be oddly charismatic and social for an IxTx


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

https://img.cinemablend.com/filter:...30031196a437b33d49e9a028a6f2abd075.jpg?mw=600 People are confused about Vader's type. I've seen him typed as every sort of xxTJ but he's an ISTJ 8w9


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...ZtpCL3UP1tkKjTfY6wUj5oaCjlJdOTHAk_tTdQFfXTIiU Frank Mir is a legit INTJ I'm pretty sure


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@Aluminum Frost why would he be INFJ > INFP though? As @DOGSOUP mentioned he's focused on dynamic movement which makes no sense for IxxJ.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

I don't recall Breaking Bad so well - does Walt really talk about things that aren't tangible a whole lot?
Is he actually "living" in an abstract world or is he just typed INTJ because he's a baddie and does some planning?


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

DOGSOUP said:


> So do extroverts only manipulate for fun?
> 
> I'd presume the introverts defense mechanism against external influences is specifically further introversion/detachment.


I don't know. Watch the series. I really don't know why we are just arguing over theoretical points.
You always pushin' me into a corner where I don't know what to say anymore. I watched the series and I've made my conclusion about their type.
This is all I know. I don't know how extroverts manipulate. I didn't work with the question. If you ask me if extrovert only manipulate for fun, my answer is probably not but what the fck does it prove?
I don't know why don't you bring up some specifics, something solid that you picked up watching the show and you think it's decisive?
Or you haven't watched the show? But then how can you argue about it?


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Turi said:


> I don't recall Breaking Bad so well - does Walt really talk about things that aren't tangible a whole lot?
> Is he actually "living" in an abstract world or is he just typed INTJ because he's a baddie and does some planning?












He's pretty abstract and he lives in his own separate world.
I'd say the best fit is INTJ. I don't really see a better type for him.


----------



## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

jetser said:


> I don't know. Watch the series. I really don't know why we are just arguing over theoretical points.
> You always pushin' me into a corner where I don't know what to say anymore. I watched the series and I've made my conclusion about their type.
> This is all I know. I don't know how extroverts manipulate. I didn't work with the question. If you ask me if extrovert only manipulate for fun, my answer is probably not but what the fck does it prove?
> I don't know why don't you bring up some specifics, something solid that you picked up watching the show and you think it's decisive?
> Or you haven't watched the show? But then how can you argue about it?


I'm not even arguing about a typing here. I've got nothing to gain or lose here. I just pointed out how manipulation is related to extroversion by applying a theory. I asked whether or not you thought that Es manipulate for fun, because I was unsure if that was your implication or not. Sorry if I have inconvenienced you somehow.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

@jetser - first vid - no abstract world there imo, it's pretty much all ST - S facts re: science and the universe etc, same deal with pretty much everything he's saying there, it's all factual, and then T making sense of it.

Second video is more of the same, there's is almost a little N punchline though - drops like a minute and a half of S facts then 'I sold my kids birthright for a few months rent' - this would be N, if it's was metaphorical or abstract but he means it literally so N still doesn't fit.
Even when he says 'Jesse, you asked me if I was in the meth business or the money business, neither, I'm in the empire business' - he means this _literally_.


I'm not saying he's not an N, or not an INTJ, I'm just saying the clips you provided suggest a more ST temperament to me - fact, reason, fact, reason - yeah he's got a goal but having a goal doesn't magically make someone and INTJ.
Not a dig at you here, @jetser - semi-ranting.


For Ni, watch this:






Watch the whole clip if you like, but at about 2:10, Ralph rattles through some facts and then hits you with the N punchline 'every highschool kids dream' <- that's an abstract concept, that's not a tangible real-world thing - to get there, he sets the stage with S re: his comments on insecurities (arguably more N), 'stealing tests, stealing cars, setting off fire alarms' then bam, *N perspective*.

Earlier in that same video, Ralph also expresses how he basically stole the 'pattern' from insecure fighters and then put it into his Karate Kid character to some degree as well - that's Ni pattern recognition, which he then projected into the real-world via his acting.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Walter seems like the progression of someone who is N first (mainly implied, before the first season even started) into someone who is T first.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Turi said:


> @jetser - first vid - no abstract world there imo, it's pretty much all ST - S facts re: science and the universe etc, same deal with pretty much everything he's saying there, it's all factual, and then T making sense of it.
> 
> Second video is more of the same, there's is almost a little N punchline though - drops like a minute and a half of S facts then 'I sold my kids birthright for a few months rent' - this would be N, if it's was metaphorical or abstract but he means it literally so N still doesn't fit.
> Even when he says 'Jesse, you asked me if I was in the meth business or the money business, neither, I'm in the empire business' - he means this _literally_.
> ...


What is he then? Everyone agrees that he's INTJ.



> having a goal doesn't magically make someone and INTJ


Having a goal not. But he's not having a concrete goal. Earlier in the show he set up to earn as much money as he can for the treatments he gets.
By this point he earned more than he could ever imagine and Jesse asks him when is it enough?
That's what he replies the empire building to.

In contrast, what has Elon Musk ever done that was not a concrete goal or a definable goal for why we type him as an INTJ?




> 'I sold my kids birthright for a few months rent'


Why would this be intuition specifically? He's driven by Fi in my opinion.



> Earlier in that same video, Ralph also expresses how he basically stole the 'pattern' from insecure fighters and then put it into his Karate Kid character to some degree as well - that's Ni pattern recognition, which he then projected into the real-world via his acting.


And the way how Walter climbs up in the ranks of gangsters and crime bosses is what? His patters recognition is exactly what makes him possible to succeed in an environment he had no previous knowledge of.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> Walter seems like the progression of someone who is N first (mainly implied, before the first season even started) into someone who is T first.


He's a logical subtype. Socionics Types: ILI-INTp Subtypes

"The logical subtype makes an impression of a self-confident, sober-minded, rational person. Most often he is courteous, demonstrates a critical turn of mind and possesses a sense of humor. He smiles frequently but his smile seems somewhat monotonous and set. He tries to be polite, therefore doesn't always voice all of his thoughts and observations. Likes to subject things to analysis. Sometimes he seems haughty and derisive. Skeptical, ironic, and mistrustful. Trusts more in figures and facts than in hastily drawn conclusions"


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

jetser said:


> Yes, this is exactly why I opened this thread.
> 
> People instead of analysing cognitive process (which is first? which is second?) fall back on the convenience of typing everyone an INTJ who shows a little mastermind attitude in his field.


"A little mastermind attitude" eh? It's hard to think of someone who is more of a mastermind on the grand scale of things. 



> I don't doubt that he _can_ be an INTJ.
> But why should I accept it just like that with no arguments made when all I see is a direct and practical approach from him from time to time?


Ni can be a 'hidden' quality by virtue of being an introverted function (especially in the INTJs with well developed Te). Since you see his big/visible extroverted thinking and he is an introvert (he called himself this publicly), the math isn't difficult here when he's clearly not an ISTJ. He must be an INTJ. 



> Where is the part where he goes crazy or say something that is not apprehensive for most?


You don't accept 'let's go live on Mars' as crazy? Starting a rocket company after reading a friend's old textbook on rockets -- not crazy? There are also plenty of Wall Street examples that are more mundane that I know of (where he was derided as crazy).



> I heard Steve Jobs saying thinga from time to time that made it clear to me that he's an Ne-dom. He was random, out of the box, seeking curious methods, not accepting common sense...etc.
> I don't see Ni from Elon Musk dominantly. I see T - lots of T. Ni is there, just not as a dominant presence.
> But hey, I accept that you think this way, it's at least something. I still hunt for the evidence that he lives in a separate world, removed from time and space, creating his little kingdom, not giving a fck about a single person other than himself, as INTJs do. (Palpatine, Nietzsche, Walter White, Isaac Newton...)


You have to factor for enneagram . Enneagram 1s are "over social" meaning they care (he can't help but concern himself in raising the standard for us all). Most INTJs are enneagram 5 and, yeah, we are more "detached", generally speaking.



Turi said:


> I'm not disputing what you're saying - but I'm curious as to whether you can 'lock in' Ni dominant so to speak, with inferior Se - has Elon Musk consistently displayed a pattern that is suggestive of inferior Se?
> 
> I don't feel like researching and gathering observable information is really his weakest aspect - I'd love to hear whether you've got an argument to support this.


I'm a bit confused by how you define Se vs Te here -- my Te happily researches and gathers observable information as I'm formulating plans/gathering results/modifying plans. Te is all about 'does this work?' (in the external world/reality).

I see inferior Se for INTJs more like forgetting/ignoring/down-playing sensory things (to stay focused in Ni/Te) and then it coming to the forefront occasionally. Elon Musk says things like he wishes he didn't have to eat (bc it slows him down) but then he admits that sometimes he over eats. He ignores a sensory approach to life generally but then he'll obsess over something like 'falcon doors' and likes to dress well. This ignoring/fixating Se pattern is all very familiar to inferior Se me. 

I don't think inferior Se needs to be observed to 'lock in' dominant Ni/type him personally. Once you observe his "we're going to find a way or make one" Te and know he's a confirmed introvert, the choices of what he could be are very limited from there, with the answer obvious. But then I like to keep typing simple, where possible.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dare said:


> "A little mastermind attitude" eh? It's hard to think of someone who is more of a mastermind on the grand scale of things.


So?



> Ni can be a 'hidden' quality by virtue of being an introverted function (especially in the INTJs with well developed Te). Since you see his big/visible extroverted thinking and he is an introvert (he called himself this publicly), the math isn't difficult here when he's clearly not an ISTJ. He must be an INTJ.


Well, I guess since Ni is hidden so no need to prove it huh?



> You don't accept 'let's go live on Mars' as crazy? Starting a rocket company after reading a friend's old textbook on rockets -- not crazy? There are also plenty of Wall Street examples that are more mundane that I know of (where he was derided as crazy).


This can be Ni as can be a lot of things.
And no, living on Mars is not crazy. It's like calling quantum computer crazy. Or genetic engineering.
It's the next step. It's just more spectacular because it's big, it's physical. People can easily visualize it.



> Elon Musk says things like he wishes he didn't have to eat (bc it slows him down)


That's classic Ti-dom if you ask me.



> sometimes he over eats. He ignores a sensory approach to life generally but then he'll obsess over something like 'falcon doors' and likes to dress well.


That can be inferior Se.


https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_mind_behind_tesla_spacex_solarcity

Okay I searched for one of his speeches.
I've only watched 2 minutes of it and my head hurts.
He's too detailed, too graphic to be an inferior Se. Sorry.
I don't see a hidden element. If it's there, I guess it's very well hidden.

He is asked if he sees charging stations becoming faster and he replies to that in present tense, and only after starts predicting futuristic trends.

_"CA: There isn't a huge nationwide network of charging stations now that are fast. Do you see that coming, really, truly, or just on a few key routes?

EM: There actually are far more charging stations than people realize, and at Tesla we developed something called a Supercharging technology, and we're offering that if you buy a Model S for free, forever. And so this is something that maybe a lot of people don't realize. We actually have California and Nevada covered, and we've got the Eastern seaboard from Boston to D.C. covered. By the end of this year, you'll be able to drive from L.A. to New York just using the Supercharger network, which charges at five times the rate of anything else. And the key thing is to have a ratio of drive to stop, to stop time, of about six or seven. So if you drive for three hours, you want to stop for 20 or 30 minutes, because that's normally what people will stop for. So if you start a trip at 9 a.m., by noon you want to stop to have a bite to eat, hit the restroom, coffee, and keep going."_

That's full of T and details.
I can see him an ENTJ.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Dare said:


> I'm a bit confused by how you define Se vs Te here -- my Te happily researches and gathers observable information as I'm formulating plans/gathering results/modifying plans. Te is all about 'does this work?' (in the external world/reality).


Te doesn't 'research', researching and gathering observable information is Se.
Te makes _decisions_, it doesn't gather information.
I agree it's about what it thinks will work, or make the most sense 'in reality', or according to the wider spectrum of reasons.



> I see inferior Se for INTJs more like forgetting/ignoring/down-playing sensory things (to stay focused in Ni/Te) and then it coming to the forefront occasionally. Elon Musk says things like he wishes he didn't have to eat (bc it slows him down) but then he admits that sometimes he over eats. He ignores a sensory approach to life generally but then he'll obsess over something like 'falcon doors' and likes to dress well. This ignoring/fixating Se pattern is all very familiar to inferior Se me.


This doesn't demonstrate inferior Se to me and it sure as shit doesn't display a consistent pattern of inferior Se throughout his life but I do see where you're going with it.
Inferior Se will be an aversion to gathering new observable information, not so much 'not eating' etc (generally attributed to inferior Si, fwiw, not that I buy into the stereotypes) - though I could see this actually manifesting as somebody not wanting to eat 'new' things.



> I don't think inferior Se needs to be observed to 'lock in' dominant Ni/type him personally. Once you observe his "we're going to find a way or make one" Te and know he's a confirmed introvert, the choices of what he could be are very limited from there, with the answer obvious. But then I like to keep typing simple, where possible.


Without making sure Se is his inferior/demon, you've got nothing to support Ni as his saviour function.
"Find a way or make one" sounds more like the Se mentality but that's just my own observations.
Confirmed introvert at what?

I don't believe typing is anywhere near that 'simple' and probably shouldn't be - we should really be watching hours of videos etc of these people before typing them - something I admittedly have _not _done re: Elon Musk - I've watched a few, but not nearly enough to feel confident typing him.


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

@jetser yeah, I see no reason to get caught up proving Ni dominance if he can be typed more easily. We know he's a thinker, an introvert and is a J over P. ISTP and INTP are out. He's ISTJ or INTJ with the latter being the obvious one out of those two. 

I'm not into this exploring all possibilities way of typing, personally. I like it as logical & simple as possible. If you want to present the case for why he's Ti over Te and a P over a J, by all means, let's here it or let's agree to disagree and leave it.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dare said:


> @jetser yeah, I see no reason to get caught up proving Ni dominance if he can be typed more easily. We know he's a thinker, an introvert and is a J over P. ISTP and INTP are out. He's ISTJ or INTJ with the latter being the obvious one out of those two.
> 
> I'm not into this exploring all possibilities way of typing, personally. I like it as logical & simple as possible. If you want to present the case for why he's Ti over Te and a P over a J, by all means, let's here it or let's agree to disagree and leave it.


Why is he an I? Just because he said so?
In the interview I linked he seems like an extrovert. Fluent talking with no stops.
Lots of information and details. Speaks in present tense.
Sorry, but that's no INTJ. Maybe ENTJ.


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

I wouldnt really know about these figures, so Im guessing.

Bryan Cranston infj
Walter White istj

Nietzsche: woman was gods second mistake. istp

Isaac Newton intj

Elon infj. And this is correct. The intj is secondary in grandmastery only to the original best of the 16. Besides. Every man has a private telephone nb. Do not force me to hand it over to you freely, at least not without a FAIR photo exchange

Christopher Nolan enfp

James Cameron intj

Michael Corleone, intj

arnold, estj

freud: love is a state of temp psychosis. I know a man who used to tell that to me daily. estp

kobe estp

OC songs- into dust- with lyrics

If you love 2 people at the same time
choose the second one that came into your life later
bc had you REALLY loved the first one
you wouldnt have ever fallen for the second


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Turi said:


> Te doesn't 'research', researching and gathering observable information is Se. Te makes _decisions_, it doesn't gather information.


I research to create plans. I have no idea how Te could make decisions without relevant information to analyze.



> Confirmed introvert at what?


He publicly called himself an introvert and described how that's difficult for him.



> I don't believe typing is anywhere near that 'simple' and probably shouldn't be - we should really be watching hours of videos etc of these people before typing them - something I admittedly have _not _done re: Elon Musk - I've watched a few, but not nearly enough to feel confident typing him.


Fwiw I have (and read his biography and more) and I'm confident he's INTJ -- that's why I spoke up about him in particular.


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

jetser said:


> Why is he an I? Just because he said so?


Yes, exactly, bc he said so (and his father described him as such too). He specifically said that being around people drains him.



> In the interview I linked he seems like an extrovert. Fluent talking with no stops.
> Lots of information and details. Speaks in present tense.
> Sorry, but that's no INTJ. Maybe ENTJ.


I just have to laugh. People would say the same of me. I'm just trying to help, but I see it's not working.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Dare said:


> I research to create plans. I have no idea how Te could make decisions without relevant information to analyze.


I hear you, but any and all information gathering is perception.




> He publicly called himself an introvert and described how that's difficult for him.


This doesn't mean anything to me.
No such thing as "an introvert".




> Fwiw I have (and read his biography and more) and I'm confident he's INTJ -- that's why I spoke up about him in particular.


I get what you're saying but it's sketchy because you also type yourself as an INTJ so how do I know it's not bias, and the way you've typed in this thread leaves a lot to be desired, imo - I mean I don't feel we "know" he's a Thinker, "introverted" is kinda meaningless without know what he's introverting and J is supposed to represent a preference for an extroverted judging function so on its own it doesn't identify anything and IMO T hasn't been established enough to imply Te in that J.

Just my 2c.
I haven't read his autobiography etc.


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Dare

As this person is clearly a source of inspiration for you, as he is for me too, I really think youd chill out quite a bit over this matter if youd actually meet him. Why wouldnt you just do that? Im absolutely sure you have the means for that to come true. Tomorrow, in the summer, when ever you choose to. After that, you could come back to PerC and just say it out loud if he is an intj, istp, edfg or, infact, infj.

We are having this fucking flight tomorrow, I really hope the plane will be clean this time.. the cleaning team changed and all .. a fuckin nightmare as usual without a wife

Without too much of emotional turbulence I mean


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

jetser said:


> He's a logical subtype. Socionics Types: ILI-INTp Subtypes
> 
> "The logical subtype makes an impression of a self-confident, sober-minded, rational person. Most often he is courteous, demonstrates a critical turn of mind and possesses a sense of humor. He smiles frequently but his smile seems somewhat monotonous and set. He tries to be polite, therefore doesn't always voice all of his thoughts and observations. Likes to subject things to analysis. Sometimes he seems haughty and derisive. Skeptical, ironic, and mistrustful. Trusts more in figures and facts than in hastily drawn conclusions"


That just seems like using subtypes as an excuse to type someone clearly demonstrating rational behavior as an irrational. This is one of the reason I dislike subtypes. Past Walter may have been ILI but the one present during most of the Breaking Bad timeline is not an ILI. I guess you can argue that his life situation turned him into a different type though.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Seto Kaiba is an ENTJ, also evidence that Te doms are the most introverted extraverts.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Seto Kaiba is an ENTJ, also evidence that Te doms are the most introverted extraverts.


Sketchy af son.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> Sketchy af.


Oh ffs, thinkers are more object focused and ExTJs lack Fe. They have many traits that make them less E if you think about it. Cold, stand-offish, less interested in people, disagreeable, less friendly, etc. Also percievers by contrast are nicer and more playful.


----------



## isfpisfp (Sep 10, 2017)

INTJ










INTJ










INTJ










INTJ 










INTJ


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Oh ffs, thinkers are more object focused and ExTJs lack Fe. They have many traits that make them less E if you think about it. Cold, stand-offish, less interested in people, disagreeable, less friendly, etc. Also percievers by contrast are nicer and more playful.


I thought you weren't going to do this anymore.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> I thought you weren't going to do this anymore.


Do what? I didn't give you vague one off descriptions. I gave you multiple descriptions that show that thinking and judging is more introverted than feeling and perceiving is. It's even backed up by Big 5, you lose.


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

jetser said:


> Here are some quotes from Elon Musk:
> 
> "When something is important enough, you do it even if the odds are not in your favor."
> 
> ...


No, they sound exactly like Ni except being directed by Ti.


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

Turi said:


> Te doesn't 'research', researching and gathering observable information is Se.
> Te makes _decisions_, it doesn't gather information.
> I agree it's about what it thinks will work, or make the most sense 'in reality', or according to the wider spectrum of reasons.


Correction. Te doesn't gather information and gather observable information, it does have more *bias* towards observable information as opposed to the latter.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Deathstroke is ISTP but in Teen Titans he's INTJ


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Xcopy said:


> Correction. Te doesn't gather information and gather observable information, it does have more *bias* towards observable information as opposed to the latter.


Try that one again.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Xcopy said:


> Correction. Te doesn't gather information and gather observable information, it does have more *bias* towards observable information as opposed to the latter.


This is correct and don't let anybody tell you otherwise


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

Turi said:


> Try that one again.


I'm not interested in your specific alien vision of how things should work. If that much is too difficult for you to grasp, then your mistakes are going to continue.





Aluminum Frost said:


> This is correct and don't let anybody tell you otherwise


I don't make statements or judgement without hours of studying and figuring it out.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Xcopy said:


> I'm not interested in your specific alien vision of how things should work. If that much is too difficult for you to grasp, then your mistakes are going to continue.


Not sure why you're trying to take a dig at me - for comedic effect, I presume.


I'm not making any mistakes, I see the functions.
I know what they are.

Your post doesn't make sense, if you could rephrase it, or translate it into English, that would be great - or you can just leave it to fade away into the depths of the internet in its current nonsensical form, I'm not overly concerned either way.


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

Turi said:


> Not sure why you're trying to take a dig at me - for comedic effect, I presume.
> 
> 
> I'm not making any mistakes, I see the functions.
> ...


There is no comedy at taking a dig at you. I am stating that rather you disagree with it or not, that is how they work. If you could explain to me how it doesn't make sense, then I would disagree with you, because while a judging function can make a decision, that doesn't necessarily explain anything beyond "It makes a decision". When the truth is, Te dom tend to trust more logic that has been researched more, something with evidence and backing. While the Ti doms, whom can see the exact same logic that has been researched more and become highly critical of it because it doesn't operate from their own logical framework. 

Most introverted functions occur from within, so they make sense to themselves. To the rest world, it is alien space talk that holds little value to them unless they relate to it.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Xcopy said:


> There is no comedy at taking a dig at you. I am stating that rather you disagree with it or not, that is how they work.


You didn't explain how anything works.



> If you could explain to me how it doesn't make sense, then I would disagree with you, because while a judging function can make a decision, that doesn't necessarily explain anything beyond "It makes a decision".


What doesn't make sense is your post. I'm not discussing whether your interpretation of Te is accurate or not - you haven't actually explained your views on Te here in the slightest, your post is a hot mess - disagree all you like, I'll quote your post at the end of this post, so you can re-read it.



> When the truth is, Te dom tend to trust more logic that has been researched more, something with evidence and backing. While the Ti doms, whom can see the exact same logic that has been researched more and become highly critical of it because it doesn't operate from their own logical framework.


You are correct with regards to Te trusting 'logic that has been researched more, something with evidence and backing' - this reflects my own perspective of Te as outlined here, to some degree.

Te bases it's decisions off of what has been proven to work on a more communal scale, you could look at it as 'group' reasoning - the 'group' being, society, culture, etc - not a small congregation of people - but, the wider spectrum of 'group reasoning'.

What I mean by this, is Te likes to make decisions based off of things like precedents, standards, law - almost the 'laws of nature' though that's a poor way of phrasing it, it makes it's decisions based on what makes sense to 'the group', rather than purely what makes sense to itself.

_An example of a Te decision, would be to stop at a red light - this makes sense on a 'group' level, it's beyond the individual - the lights are there for a reason, safer, prevents collisions, ensures everyone gets to cross the road fairly etc etc there are numerous Te reasons why stopping at a red light is a good decision - it makes sense, on a 'group' level.
_

Ti types make sense based off of their own personal reasoning, less concerned with whether or not their own reasons are accepted by the wider social spectrum, or make sense in accordance to what is already known i.e precedents and standards.

_An example of a Ti decision, re: the lights, would be to look around and see there is no traffic and then go (or not) anyway - even though there are Te laws and structures in place, they don't make sense to the Ti type at that moment in time and therefore the Ti type may not feel governed by them - whereas Te types have a more innate sense of 'group' reasoning, Ti types have a more innate sense of 'self' reasoning._
****don't twist this into any suggestion that Ti types run red-lights, I am simply communicating an idea****

If you agree with the above, we are in agreement.


For clarity - here is the post I quoted:



Xcopy said:


> Correction. Te doesn't gather information and gather observable information, it does have more *bias* towards observable information as opposed to the latter.


You attempted to correct me, with _this _nonsensical post.
It does not make grammatical sense.

You say Te doesn't gather information and gather observable information (_correct, information gathering is perceiving functions -
Te doesn't gather shit_) - then you say it has more bias towards observable information (_this is only correct for S types_) as opposed to the latter (_which __*is *__the observable information, in your post_).

This post doesn't make sense. 
That's why I asked you to try it again.

I believe our views on Te are likely similar, or the same.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Seto Kaiba is an ENTJ, also evidence that Te doms are the most introverted extraverts.


It's hard to tell some ENTJs apart from INTJs and they end up getting mistyped, especially when the J gets really strong because then it becomes likely that they start living their life according to some formula which is focused on less tangible or obvious goals. Even people all focused on external goals get mistyped as INTJ because they don't do typical "fun-seeking".


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

Turi said:


> Te doesn't 'research', researching and gathering observable information is Se.
> Te makes _decisions_, it doesn't gather information.
> I agree it's about what it thinks will work, or make the most sense 'in reality', or according to the wider spectrum of reasons.


Observable... In INTJs *Ni* is what gathers intuitive/abstract information, patterns, symbolism. Then Te filters it out and engages with the real world. 
I agree with Dare, inferior Se has more to do with 'body' experience, sensory information, aesthetics (or troubles with that), it's not how we gather information, yet we have to have it, right?
INTJs are excellent researchers, thanks to taking in a lot of information, processing it (often unconsciously)and spotting patterns very easily, and again- patterns-> Ni. 




> "Find a way or make one" sounds more like the Se mentality but that's just my own observations.


That applies to Te and Se... But have you seen how Se dominant person finds a way? They don't come up with schemes, they just grab opportunities (in the external world) till they're where they want to be. 




jetser said:


> Why is he an I? Just because he said so?
> In the interview I linked he seems like an extrovert. Fluent talking with no stops.
> Lots of information and details. Speaks in present tense.
> Sorry, but that's no INTJ. Maybe ENTJ.


Fluent talking?! HE MUMBLES a lot!! Speaks in a low voice, sometimes you can barely hear him, he often looks abashed. He's reserved, thinks inward. He's fluent mostly when he is confident in what he's saying (and you can't know if he doesn't request questions before an interview, I would) You can't ignore in what kind of environment he is and what kind of role he plays.



jetser said:


> Okay I searched for one of his speeches.
> I've only watched 2 minutes of it and my head hurts.
> He's too detailed, too graphic to be an inferior Se. Sorry.
> I don't see a hidden element. If it's there, I guess it's very well hidden.
> ...


You do understand that it's not a friendly talk and he's answering a very important question as a CEO. He needed to lay out those details, it's a very important information. People who buy his cars need to know concrete facts, not his futuristic wishes.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

ukulele said:


> Observable... In INTJs *Ni* is what gathers intuitive/abstract information, patterns, symbolism. Then Te filters it out and engages with the real world.
> I agree with Dare, inferior Se has more to do with 'body' experience, sensory information, aesthetics (or troubles with that), it's not how we gather information, yet we have to have it, right?
> INTJs are excellent researchers, thanks to taking in a lot of information, processing it (often unconsciously)and spotting patterns very easily, and again- patterns-> Ni.


I appreciate it, but I have no idea why you've quoted me and posted this.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dare said:


> I'm just trying to help, but I see it's not working.


With what? I love when people just recites common knowledge as some help.
So far your points of him being an INTJ are as follows.

1. He shows extreme "mastermind" attitude in his field - whatever this means.
2. He himself said that he's an introvert.
3. People would say the same about you.
4. You don't like exploring all the possibilities, so in order to keep it _simple _we just say he's an INTJ.
5. Because we KNOW that he's a Thinker (I agree), an introvert and a J over a P. All this out of the freakin blue.

Okay.


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

Turi said:


> What doesn't make sense is your post. I'm not discussing whether your interpretation of Te is accurate or not - you haven't actually explained your views on Te here in the slightest, your post is a hot mess - disagree all you like, I'll quote your post at the end of this post, so you can re-read it.


By hot mess, you mean the one detail that was grammatical that you disagree with. So let's go through this.







> Te bases it's decisions off of what has been proven to work on a more communal scale, you could look at it as 'group' reasoning - the 'group' being, society, culture, etc - not a small congregation of people - but, the wider spectrum of 'group reasoning'.


Which I basically said, but didn't think I needed to hand hold. So this should be ove-




> _An example of a Ti decision, re: the lights, would be to look around and see there is no traffic and then go (or not) anyway - even though there are Te laws and structures in place, they don't make sense to the Ti type at that moment in time and therefore the Ti type may not feel governed by them - whereas Te types have a more innate sense of 'group' reasoning, Ti types have a more innate sense of 'self' reasoning._
> ****don't twist this into any suggestion that Ti types run red-lights, I am simply communicating an idea****


I think that is one way Te manifests itself. Not the only way. Te isn't "following the rules", because if this was the case, then Te-doms wouldn't commit crimes or oppose any sort of rules in general. Except while it does respect organization and structure to a degree, it's more or less about how said structure can be used, what can be accomplished, and prefers sound, proven, logic as a top function. The lower it goes in stack, the less priority it gets within the individual.




> You attempted to correct me, with _this _nonsensical post.
> It does not make grammatical sense


.

This amuses me and annoys me simultaneously. I enjoy the word 'attempt', which is odd, because you said I was correct. However it makes me curious as to what was the focus of this on? You spoke about what I said, but then later pointed out the grammatical error. Okay? It seems strange to be defensive over this. 




> You say Te doesn't gather information and gather observable information (_correct, information gathering is perceiving functions -
> Te doesn't gather shit_)


Oh Christ, fine let's change the wording and be super specific about this one inane detail.



> - then you say it has more bias towards observable information (_this is only correct for S types_)


Right, because they also too busy using observable facts and proven logic to implement any creativity. Te is more objective due to it's extroversion, thus objective logic. Introverted thinkers are more subjective, thus they exhibit a use of subjective logic that comes from within. Observable information is not subjective, it is as objective and projected as outward as it's going to get. Facts are objective, again, S is simply *How* you take in information. an N using Te won't suddenly make it an ungrounded function. Your idea focuses more on the idea that " Because a Sensor is grounded, their use of Te will be more realistic." While that can have a basis for a structure, it doesn't go far enough. The Te in the N's would most likely abstract those facts into something more or less directed towards an idea or a view. However, because it's pointed outwards, it is going to have more of a grounded touch to it. It's one of the reasons ENTJ's tend to be more grounded than the INTJ's. The INTJ's have the ability to be grounded in objective logic, but it's following a subjective internal vision. There is no objective basing to this vision, because it comes from inside them. It's abstractions come purely from within itself. While the Ne-user's exaggerated abstractions continue to progress forward until it's unfolded itself like a piece of paper in four different directions. "Events happen in the world" or "The Possibilities are endless." is a fact of the world. That bears truth. 

"The number 5 bears an effective meaning to existence itself, so it is important to keep it in mind." is not a fact. It's something the person finds to be a pattern they made the connection to.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

"I really get the functions! You peasants need to bow down and listen to me."
"No the functions are _really_ what I say they are."
"No you don't get it. I do!"
"No I do!"
"No I do!"
... ad nauseum


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> I'd like my fellow forumites to note the number of instances whereby Aluminum Frost has provided proof to support his claims within this post.
> 
> I would also then like to draw your attention to the number zero.
> 
> That's all, folks.


Like talking to a brick wall smh. Turi you spend too much time on here, you're neglecting your wife and kids. If you don't be careful she'll leave you for a man that can do basic mathematics.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Like talking to a brick wall smh. Turi you spend too much time on here, you're neglecting your wife and kids. If you don't be careful she'll leave you for a man that can do basic mathematics.


I don't neglect anyone, and [email protected] that angle haha.

But seriously. Usually when people run their mouths, and want to be taken seriously, they support their points with facts, evidence, citations, sources, that kinda thing. 

Write that down.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> I don't neglect anyone, and [email protected] that angle haha.
> 
> But seriously. Usually when people run their mouths, and want to be taken seriously, they support their points with facts, evidence, citations, sources, that kinda thing.
> 
> Write that down.


My dude, you're asking me to link you to debates we've had. Then what? Even if I show them you'll disagree when I say I've won, you'll just say I'm "straw-manning" "Not understanding" like you always do when I poke holes in your logic. You don't support anything you say with evidence. It makes sense to you so you think it's objective. That's why your DSP vids require no evidence.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> My dude, you're asking me to link you to debates we've had. Then what? Even if I show them you'll disagree when I say I've won, you'll just say I'm "straw-manning" "Not understanding" like you always do when I poke holes in your logic. You don't support anything you say with evidence. It makes sense to you so you think it's objective. That's why your DSP vids require no evidence.


If you're not going to provide anything to support what you have to say, we're done here.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> If you're not going to provide anything to support what you have to say, we're done here.


I already did and this was over before it began


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> I already did and this was over before it began


You have literally never provided anything to support a single word you've posted on here.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> You have literally never provided anything to support a single word you've posted on here.


Lol that's a knowledge claim, prove it. Tell you what, prove your DSP vids are fact and I'll humor you.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Lol that's a knowledge claim, prove it. Tell you what, prove your DSP vids are fact and I'll humor you.


I can prove your aversion to providing proof or sources by linking to your post history.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> I can prove it by linking to your post history.


I don't need "proof" in the way you're defining it. Logic is not something that can by cited, that seems to be the only evidence you'll accept. Poking holes in your reasoning proves that your reasoning is shit. Which I have proven time and time again. Now prove those DSP vids are objective.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> I don't need "proof" in the way you're defining it. Logic is not something that can by cited, that seems to be the only evidence you'll accept. Poking holes in your reasoning proves that your reasoning is shit. Which I have proven time and time again. Now prove those DSP vids are objective.


Let's go back to basics because you're straw-manning out into space right now. 

You made a baseless claim, like you always do. 
I requested you provide proof or evidence to support your claim. 
You refuse, like you always do - and attempted to flip the burden of proof onto me (like you - sing it with me - always do).

So, that's where we are. 
You can provide proof to support your nonsense claims - or not - it's your choice, how you want to be perceived is up to you.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> Let's go back to basics because you're straw-manning out into space right now.
> 
> You made a baseless claim, like you always do.
> I requested you provide proof or evidence to support your claim.
> ...


And now you're disregarding what I said cause I called you out on your bullshit and you know you're wrong. You don't believe in logic and reason, got it.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> And now you're disregarding what I said cause I called you out on your bullshit and you know you're wrong. You don't believe in logic and reason, got it.


I'm not disregarding anything, I'm simply directing you back to the point - you made a claim, please support it.
Why is this so difficult for you to do?


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> I'm not disregarding anything, I'm simply directing you back to the point - you made a claim, please support it.
> Why is this so difficult for you to do?


Turi ignoring logic and reason again when backed into a corner, also can't back up his claims. Tsk tsk this just proves you're a 6.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Turi ignoring logic and reason again when backed into a corner, also can't back up his claims. Tsk tsk this just proves you're a 6.


The saddest part is that you likely believe this - the part where you attempt to deflect the burden of proof onto others so as to not have to support your baseless claims with any kind of proof, and attack others character - is probably the part that makes you think you 'trounce' others in debates.

I speculate you've been allowed to get away with this sort of behaviour your entire life and aren't likely to change anytime soon. 

You aren't capable of supporting anything you say with any kind of evidence or proof to support it, at all, you've been requested numerous times and have tried to attack the other person or use other forms of diversionary tactics to otherwise avoid having to 'put up' so to speak.

I find this behaviour deceptive and won't be communicating further with you from herein.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> The saddest part is that you likely believe this - the part where you attempt to deflect the burden of proof onto others so as to not have to support your baseless claims with any kind of proof, and attack others character - is probably the part that makes you think you 'trounce' others in debates.
> 
> I speculate you've been allowed to get away with this sort of behaviour your entire life and aren't likely to change anytime soon.
> 
> ...


The mental gymnastics you do are quite frankly hilarious. Fine, don't respond, but if you do bother me again I'll make you look stupid in front of everyone for the 100th time. Run along with your tail between your legs as usual now Turi.


----------



## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)




----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Turi said:


> Some people _genuinely _think Fe = concern for humanity, caring, nurturing, generous, kind, nice, warm, welcoming, appreciative, agreeable etc etc.
> There are honestly people out there who link adjectives to their understanding of the cognitive functions.
> 
> Scary world, indeed.


_"Fe expresses the need for belonging and working for something larger than oneself"_

The Principles of Cognitive Function Theory @MBTI-notes - Type Theory

Since Elon Musk obviously has this I assume he's Fe.

It's not only that but his facial expressions and gestures are also more Fe.
He's outwardly emotive, not inwardly:


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

You can use a bunch of things that aren't MBTI to come with absurd typings of Elon Musk as things like "ISTP", even just taking something like Gulenko's supposed typing of him in Socionics as LSI. But this is just typing him within an alternate universe where ISTP means something different than the letters that make it up. So if people like @Turi and @jetser really want to argue that he is "ISTP" in their little universes I have no arguments in return because it very well may be true in their worlds.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> You can use a bunch of things that aren't MBTI to come with absurd typings of Elon Musk as things like "ISTP", even just taking something like Gulenko's supposed typing of him in Socionics as LSI. But this is just typing him within an alternate universe where ISTP means something different than the letters that make it up. So if people like @Turi and @jetser really want to argue that he is "ISTP" in their little universes I have no arguments in return because it very well may be true in their worlds.


Said the INTJ parading around as an INTP h:


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

If we're going to reduce Musk down to an emotion he felt caught publicly (he smiles therefore he's not INTJ = lol), we might as well bring up the fact that he has a tendency to get close to crying when things touch his sensitive tertiary Fi (bc this stuff is so important to him). Here are a couple of examples, there are more:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OAdYdY8P9kA

A man who says 'how can I increase NASA's ever declining budget bc space exploration is important' (important to him, not the majority obviously) and then, to that aim, takes that on single-handedly by starting SpaceX (when he believed this capital investment was most likely going to be a total loss and everyone around him begged him not to do it) -- taking the lead for effective, efficient and radical change is not a Fe user (his moral code/world view is an internal one). A similar thing could be said for him in his other endeavors. This stuff is very important to him _personally_ AND he's decided to take it on _individually_ -- meaning going against the status quo, against others, time and time again to make his visions/his values a reality for all of us.

It's said that INTJs are the "most emo" thinker. As a generalization, I believe that's true. The stereotype of INTJs as cold with their head in the clouds, is only that -- a stereotype. There are INTJs like that, but a lot of us are not that cold and have well developed Te -- so we have a good command on reality/making things happen in the physical world. Se isn't the only function to connect with reality (as has been implied repeatedly in this thread). And INTJs do use Se, some better than others. But as Ocean Helm astutely pointed out, we create our own realities, apparently (I completely agree with the idea that if you aren't the letters that make up the mbti type, then you aren't that type).

I really like ISTPs but Elon Musk isn't one of them. He's big Fi driving big Te. The caring aspect is bc he cares about these values --> his personal values. There are plenty of examples of him being very not Fe with people (he is blunt and has a reputation for being very uncaring towards others in the pursuit of his goals; being too demanding, deliberately humiliating employees by doing their 'impossible' work for them and other such stuff -- stuff typically related to Te, not Fe).


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> You can use a bunch of things that aren't MBTI to come with absurd typings of Elon Musk as things like "ISTP", even just taking something like Gulenko's supposed typing of him in Socionics as LSI. But this is just typing him within an alternate universe where ISTP means something different than the letters that make it up. So if people like @Turi and @jetser really want to argue that he is "ISTP" in their little universes I have no arguments in return because it very well may be true in their worlds.


So far you've made zero contribution to this thread. Just saying.
You made accusations and yeah, you're parading around like you have something to lose by claiming he's not an INTJ.

I will hang up as soon as I've heard one convincing argument about his dominant Ni, other than "oh yeah he's a CEO so he's an INTJ" and "he sees the future by focusing on 5 or 6 things" which is simply not true.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dare said:


> This stuff is very important to him _personally_


This is not true. He's always saying it's important to take the next step for us, humans, not for himself.
And the things you say (distrustful of others' opinion) is exactly fitting inferior Fe.



> It's said that INTJs are the "most emo" thinker. As a generalization, I believe that's true. The stereotype of INTJs as cold with their head in the clouds, is only that -- a stereotype.


And this is not a generalization: "It's said that INTJs are the "most emo" thinker."?
But you just said "it's said" which means it is assumed automatically.



> he cares about these values --> his personal values.


His personal values include sharing knowledge and other people.



> (he is blunt and has a reputation for being very uncaring towards others in the pursuit of his goals; being too demanding, deliberately humiliating employees by doing their 'impossible' work for them and other such stuff -- stuff typically related to Te, not Fe)


No, it's a stuff related to inferior Fe mostly.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Said the INTJ parading around as an INTP h:


I'm like 70% P.


jetser said:


> So far you've made zero contribution to this thread. Just saying.
> You made accusations and yeah, you're parading around like you have something to lose by claiming he's not an INTJ.
> 
> I will hang up as soon as I've heard one convincing argument about his dominant Ni, other than "oh yeah he's a CEO so he's an INTJ" and "he sees the future by focusing on 5 or 6 things" which is simply not true.


If you're talking about Jung and Socionics Ni then sure he doesn't have "dominant Ni". He is a strong N as well as an extremely strong J in MBTI so any system which gives him a type other than NTJ is going against MBTI. You are free to type however you wish with The Functions though.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> I'm like 70% P.
> 
> If you're talking about Jung and Socionics Ni then sure he doesn't have "dominant Ni". He is a strong N as well as an extremely strong J in MBTI so any system which gives him a type other than NTJ is going against MBTI. You are free to type however you wish with The Functions though.


I'm talking about this Ni: https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/2c69ms/socionicsmbti_descriptions_by_functions_intj/

Ni as Leading Function

"As a base function, Ni generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity. Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through mindful simulation of events, a person with leading Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience. However, this may also become a disadvantage if the person becomes overly reliant on his mental simulations while disregarding attaining actual experience in areas that interest him, turning down opportunities without trying them out which leads to boredom. The ability to transcend the axis of time and understand the cause and effect relationships that occur is also a feature, sometimes resulting in the ability to accurately predict general future trends and outcomes of certain events"

Nothing could be further from this.


" a person with leading Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience."

This is something Walter White does in Breaking bad for example.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> I'm like 70% P.
> 
> If you're talking about Jung and Socionics Ni then sure he doesn't have "dominant Ni". He is a strong N as well as an extremely strong J in MBTI so any system which gives him a type other than NTJ is going against MBTI. You are free to type however you wish with The Functions though.


Sure, you can get any result on the test you want. Doesn't make it true though.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@jetser that comes from a Socionics source, and no I don't think he's ILI. So do we have that settled?

@Aluminum Frost I've taken the official MBTI test three times, the first two times not having a clue what it was about. And all three times I got P.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> @jetser that comes from a Socionics source, and no I don't think he's ILI. So do we have that settled?
> 
> @Aluminum Frost I've taken the official MBTI test three times, the first two times not having a clue what it was about. And all three times I got P.


So what? First time I took an mbti test I got ENFP, how "official" it is is irrelevant.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> You can use a bunch of things that aren't MBTI to come with absurd typings of Elon Musk as things like "ISTP", even just taking something like Gulenko's supposed typing of him in Socionics as LSI. But this is just typing him within an alternate universe where ISTP means something different than the letters that make it up. So if people like @Turi and @jetser really want to argue that he is "ISTP" in their little universes I have no arguments in return because it very well may be true in their worlds.





Aluminum Frost said:


> So what? First time I took an mbti test I got ENFP, how "official" it is is irrelevant.


_*Vindicated*_.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> So what? First time I took an mbti test I got ENFP, how "official" it is is irrelevant.


Well the point is that I always had a lack of J traits and that's why I answered P to the J/P questions, and continue to do so.

Maybe @Turi is right about you being INFP after all.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> Well the point is that I always had a lack of J traits and that's why I answered P to the J/P questions, and continue to do so.
> 
> Maybe @Turi is right about you being INFP after all.


You seem more J. INFP instead of INTP? Wow! Way to think outside the box for once Ocean 

But seriously the reason you type most everyone as an INTP is probably cause you want to make it more broad that way you'll fit into it.


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

jetser said:


> This is not true. He's always saying it's important to take the next step for us, humans, not for himself.


Of course he does, he is 1) selling something, 2) reforming (trying to make his personal values societies values -- which he is successfully doing) and bonus, 3) he conveniently believes it is good for humanity. 

"It's good for humanity" sounds a lot better than "I want..." and, somewhat amusingly, as you've just shown, no one questions that phrase -- but there are a lot of things that would be good for humanity so let's not pretend there isn't a personal value behind the particular thing chosen.

You don't seem to be familiar with either an INTJ with well developed Te or an INTJ who's enneagram 1. Musk is both but still clearly a Ni dominant. In rocketry he, as you say of Ni dominance, 'thrived where data was scarce and he had no prerequisite experience'.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

I'm gonna be sketchy on Musk as an INTJ until I see summadat demon Se.
imo his Se, i.e his ability to gather observable information, ain't his inferior function.

I'd say it's a skill, one of his best, and the reason he's able to learn things so quickly without prior experience.
I have such a difficult time reconciling inferior Se with his ability to grasp, learn and absorb new information so quickly.

Ni is similar to Si in this respect, it wants new information bit by bit, let that shit sink in then proceed - Ne and Se are wayyyy better at 'more more more more more yes yes yes yes yes new new new new new information!!111!!'


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi the counterphobic 5 at it again with one of his "think pieces"


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

Maybe you should start discussing why he 'is' an ISTP... If he was to cherry pick whatever information suits his vision and was unable to see the big picture of things, I don't think he would gone that far (and that fast).

Ti can't be more inefficient, he is all about efficiency. If you think about it, most of his businesses are based on 'how to make something inefficient efficient enough?' Tesla, SpaceX, The Boring Company, Paypal etc
He's improving everything.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

ukulele said:


> Maybe you should start discussing why he 'is' an ISTP... If he was to cherry pick whatever information suits his vision and was unable to see the big picture of things, I don't think he would went that far (and that fast).
> 
> Ti can't be more inefficient, he is all about efficiency. If you think about it, most of his businesses are based on 'how to make something inefficient efficient enough?' Tesla, SpaceX, The Boring Company, Paypal etc
> He's improving everything.


Are you implying ISTPs are incapable of seeing the big picture?

I don't see the relevance of what you've posted, nothing is function or type specific, with regards to your request to start discussing why Elon 'is' an ISTP - sure, though I hesitate to claim it as his definitive type, it's simply the best fit in accordance with my understanding of functions and cross-checking his inferior function/demon - something that is notably absent from other arguments or suggestions.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

If only you typed by MBTI, rather than by inferior functions, you wouldn't be in such a mess.


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

Turi said:


> Are you implying ISTPs are incapable of seeing the big picture?
> 
> I don't see the relevance of what you've posted, nothing is function or type specific, with regards to your request to start discussing why Elon 'is' an ISTP - sure, though I hesitate to claim it as his definitive type, it's simply the best fit in accordance with my understanding of functions and cross-checking his inferior function/demon - something that is notably absent from other arguments or suggestions.


No, I only summed up what's happening here. Ti^n


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> If only you typed by MBTI, rather than by inferior functions, you wouldn't be in such a mess.


They're one single part of the puzzle.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Turi said:


> They're one single part of the puzzle.


What's the whole puzzle? That ObjectivePersonality stuff?


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> What's the whole puzzle? That ObjectivePersonality stuff?


No, somebody's type. 
Imo it's silly to even try type by functions if you're not going to line up the supposed bipolar relationships. 

So for Elon, Ni dom is nonsense without inferior Se. 
If inferior Se isn't locked in, neither is Ni dom. 

People here type by what is essentially their favorite adjectives and skill-set assumptions for some reason.
If they're going to play the functions game, they should do it properly and line up those bipolar relationships - without them, their opinions are no more credible than reading tea leaves or shaking a magic 8 ball.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Turi said:


> No, somebody's type.
> Imo it's silly to even try type by functions if you're not going to line up the supposed bipolar relationships.
> 
> So for Elon, Ni dom is nonsense without inferior Se.
> ...


Why should there be bipolar relationships? At least in the sense that if you are Ni-dominant, why should you be inferior in Se rather than Fe (if you're a Thinker) or Te (if you're a Feeler)?

I think the bipolar relationships generally work fine in the "MBTI functions" where Ni-dominance implies a Judging preference, but that's something different. You seem to be more in this camp, where you describe Ni and Si dominance as basically closing off perception. So I guess it works in the Turiverse well enough but why should people enter the Turiverse?


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> Why should there be bipolar relationships? At least in the sense that if you are Ni-dominant, why should you be inferior in Se rather than Fe (if you're a Thinker) or Te (if you're a Feeler)?
> 
> I think the bipolar relationships generally work fine in the "MBTI functions" where Ni-dominance implies a Judging preference, but that's something different. You seem to be more in this camp, where you describe Ni and Si dominance as basically closing off perception. So I guess it works in the Turiverse well enough but why should people enter the Turiverse?


Not sure what you're smoking tonight but cool man.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dare said:


> Of course he does, he is 1) selling something, 2) reforming (trying to make his personal values societies values -- which he is successfully doing) and bonus, 3) he conveniently believes it is good for humanity.
> 
> "It's good for humanity" sounds a lot better than "I want..." and, somewhat amusingly, as you've just shown, no one questions that phrase -- but there are a lot of things that would be good for humanity so let's not pretend there isn't a personal value behind the particular thing chosen.
> 
> You don't seem to be familiar with either an INTJ with well developed Te or an INTJ who's enneagram 1. Musk is both but still clearly a Ni dominant. In rocketry he, as you say of Ni dominance, 'thrived where data was scarce and he had no prerequisite experience'.


You still don't provide any reasonable argument. It's hilarious.

You're forcing this whole Fi theory into someone who's never showed any signs of being selfish or showed any signs of internal moral values during interviews.



> Of course he does, he is 1) selling something,


You can say that about literally ANYONE.



> You don't seem to be familiar with either an INTJ
> Musk is both but still clearly a Ni dominant


This is your argument.

You know, even if you're right, you're a moron, sorry.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

ukulele said:


> Maybe you should start discussing why he 'is' an ISTP...


LOl. Like I haven't done it already.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

jetser said:


> LOl. Like I haven't done it already.


You linked something that was intended for Socionics which a Reddit user happened to post in the MBTI forum.

Socionics, freaking Socionics. It was even specifically Model A. We are talking about MBTI here. Not Socionics, not Model A.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> You linked something that was intended for Socionics which a Reddit user happened to post in the MBTI forum.
> 
> Socionics, freaking Socionics. It was even specifically Model A. We are talking about MBTI here. Not Socionics, not Model A.


I said it a couple times that he's too detail oriented to be an Ni-dom.
- He's not into managing and organizing contrary what Dare says; he likes micromanaging and designing which are Ti activities, not Te.
- His facial gestures and expressions show Fe, which mean he's expressing feelings, not internalizes them.
- His visions about the world are logical conclusions, not a grand vision about something. An Ni vision rarely materializes in 5 or 6 things to begin with.
- His approach is very practical, down to earth. He made Paypal because it made easier and safer for us to pay through the internet, not because he foresaw a situation in the near future where everybody would pay through the internet.
- His comments and behaviour are not in line with famous and by many (most) people proclaimed INTJs like Walter White, Friedrich Nietzche or Isaac Newton; and what's interesting is that they all behave the same way under same circumstances.
- His comments don't show any signs of a grand vision or some personal agenda which you wanna make me believe in.
- His interviews are all about details, details, details, facts, facts, conclusions, details, details, details.

etc...


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

jetser said:


> You're forcing this whole Fi theory into someone *who's never *showed any signs of being selfish or showed any signs of internal moral values during interviews.


I'm sorry but have you seen ALL of his interviews to be able to say that? How would you even identify it? 
Plus, think... like hard... if he cared about humanity for humanity(not as a bonus), not because it's part of his vision and inner values, would he be focused on sending them to Mars? Is it really something what humanity benefits on(now?) You really don't see it's a rather loaded statement(aka selling), something that might or might not happen in a FAAAR, FAAAAR future? Why would even an ISTP was interested is something that is not tangible enough? Everything he does is plotted in a far future, he is enormously future focused (dominant Ni). 

Not to mention you completely ignore the external factors such as... life. He does not live in a vacuum. 



jetser said:


> LOl. Like I haven't done it already.


No, you're just picking cherries. You're a very subjective thinker. Notice the difference between you and Dare, she's providing you with objective data (it's not something she came up with) and what you mostly doing is 'nope, nope', ignoring everything that contradicts your theory. You're not even trying to discuss. I don't think anything could convince you because you already know what suits you and you're not open for doubting it.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@jetser it seems like we are in disagreement about things.

For instance I believe:
- INTJs are just as, if not more, "detail-oriented" as compared to ISTPs.
- Facial expressions may be a weak indicator of an MBTI type, but not in the way you are using them.
- "Grand vision" is a silly phrase to use for differentiating between INxJs and non-INxJs, especially given that INxJs are supposed to value external productivity, while INxPs are often characterized more as the "dreamers". So if anyone is going to have a grand vision, it may be INxPs.
- Comparing people to White, Nietzsche, and Newton is not a good test on whether or not people are INTJ. They are fictional, or oddballs to the degree that they aren't good representatives of their type. Nor do they even share much in common with each other, which you seem to disagree with. But I assure you, that if Newton were inserted into the Breaking Bad universe, he would *not* have behaved like Walter White.
- "Grand vision", "personal agenda": give these to any subjective thinker and they will probably be able to apply them in a way of their choosing. Also, just like I don't think "grand vision" applies to INxJs first and foremost, I also don't think "personal agenda" is a defining trait of INTJs. In fact I would expect them to be primarily _impersonal_, as they are Thinkers, and I would leave the "personal agendas" to those who are Feelers.
- Facts and details establish credibility. If you expect INTJs to speak in a bunch of logical leaps that aren't backed up by facts, then you are living in your own universe with that one.


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

jetser said:


> I said it a couple times that he's too detail oriented to be an Ni-dom.
> - He's not into managing and organizing contrary what Dare says; he likes micromanaging and designing which are Ti activities, not Te.


You're hilarious. Micromanaging is something that xSTPs do? I've lived with ESTP father all my life, he's an entrepreneur, he can't manage or micromanage shit! Same my ENTP brother and every other xSTP I've known. 

And all those tiger moms micromanaging everything aren't rather xSTJs? Te? 

I'll tell you how it looks for an INTJ, we care about quality of the product, we are perfectionists, if people fail (and they often do in our eyes) do their job properly we will step in. Designing is in fact well suited for Ti but it's nothing that Te can't do(and enjoy). And you can't ignore all of the other things he does! It's not enough! It's not a primary thing he does. If designing/engineering (assume dominant Ti) is what he's made for, only, why he's not simply an engineer? Just like many who work for him? Why isn't he an employee? What drives him to keep wanting more and more if not Ni?



> - His facial gestures and expressions show Fe, which mean he's expressing feelings, not internalizes them.


Because he smiles? C'mon! Do you want to see my picture? I assure you I have the brightes, the most angelic smile you can see. 
But again you're ignoring the fact that he's an important person and how he presents himself matters for his business. 



> - His visions about the world are logical conclusions, not a grand vision about something. An Ni vision rarely materializes in 5 or 6 things to begin with.


LOL. Yes, INTJs are logical human beings. Eureka. His conclusions are about far future. His visions are accepted now as 'logical', because a) he's rich b) he's successful with his ideas... what if he wasn't? 



> - His approach is very practical, down to earth. He made Paypal because it made easier and safer for us to pay through the internet, not because he foresaw a situation in the near future where everybody would pay through the internet.


And who told you an INTJ can't be practical? 



> - His comments and behaviour are not in line with famous and by many (most) people proclaimed INTJs like Walter White, Friedrich Nietzche or Isaac Newton; and what's interesting is that they all behave the same way under same circumstances.


Go and spend some time on the INTJ subforum. Your enneagram and your instinct matters a lot. We are not clones. We are capable of clashing with each other, A LOT. 



> - His comments don't show any signs of a grand vision or some personal agenda which you wanna make me believe in.


What's your definition of grand vision? 
Plus you're ignoring life once again, go to the subforum and ask people what's their grand vision? Most of them lead an ordinary life with no masterplans in their heads. So I'd say that wanting to colonize Mars and the whole rest that he does in fact is... a grand vision. 
What was Walter White's grand vision before he found out he won't live too long?



> - His interviews are all about details, details, details, facts, facts, conclusions, details, details, details.


Yes, because if you're buying an expensive product, you're going to invest a lot of money, you don't want to hear those, instead you want to hear a CEO rambling about abstract things in which no one is interested in... and it's not like he's been asked about them... it's not like there are people behind him.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

ukulele said:


> she's providing you with objective data (it's not something she came up with)


You're right about that because she hasn't come up with anything on her own.
She cited the companies Elon Musk has founded or is taking a share in like some evidence.



> You're not even trying to discuss.


Not true. I replied to everything.



> I don't think anything could convince you because you already know what suits you and you're not open for doubting it.


Yeah right. Because I'm the one who falsely believe in everything that people say right?
I'm the one who's trying to open the debate.
But it doesn't work because everybody just repeat the things she or he heard somewhere else.

Am I the one who said things like "ISTP = engineering"?
No.
Am I the one who said "INTJs are the most emo thinkers"?
No.
Am I the one who accuse other people of not being competent about typing? ("You don't seem to be familiar with either an INTJ")
No.

I am the one who provided explanation for all FOUR function of his, nobody even tried to explain his four functions, only TWO.
Numbers Don't Lie.
Neither do I.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

ukulele said:


> I'm sorry but have you seen ALL of his interviews to be able to say that?


No.



> Plus, think... like hard... if he cared about humanity for humanity(not as a bonus), not because it's part of his vision and inner values, would he be focused on sending them to Mars? Is it really something what humanity benefits on(now?) You really don't see it's a rather loaded statement(aka selling), something that might or might not happen in a FAAAR, FAAAAR future?


No, sending people to Mars is not a moral agenda.
It is a personal logical agenda.
It is an extremely subjective thinking, thinking that all people should move to Mars. It has nothing to do with someone's inner morality, it has everything to do with subjective thinking factors.



> Why would even an ISTP was interested is something that is not tangible enough?


Because an ISTP is interested in taking logical steps (Ti) toward concrete goals (Se) with an underlying vision (Ni) that benefits - in his subjective personal thinking - all (Fe).


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> @jetser it seems like we are in disagreement about things.
> 
> For instance I believe:
> - INTJs are just as, if not more, "detail-oriented" as compared to ISTPs.
> ...


"INxJs are supposed to value external productivity, while INxPs are often characterized more as the "dreamers". So if anyone is going to have a grand vision, it may be INxPs."

Trying to redefine what an INTP is again...


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> [MENTION=344298]- INTJs are just as, if not more, "detail-oriented" as compared to ISTPs.


I don't think that's true.


> - "Grand vision" is a silly phrase to use for differentiating between INxJs and non-INxJs, especially given that INxJs are supposed to value external productivity, while INxPs are often characterized more as the "dreamers". So if anyone is going to have a grand vision, it may be INxPs.


By grand vision I mean that they're focusing on one thing. Or a couple of things. A relatively narrow fields of vision, nicknamed "tunnel vision".
It's the result of being dominant Ni with inferior Se. You don't get the supplying data or information enough to include more than that few things you have set your eyes on.



> - Comparing people to White, Nietzsche, and Newton is not a good test on whether or not people are INTJ. They are fictional, or oddballs to the degree that they aren't good representatives of their type. Nor do they even share much in common with each other, which you seem to disagree with.


I see the resemblance but who would you say it's a better comparison to INTJs in general?
I think Nietzche is the best representation of the type I've seen. He's intuitive, righteous, make laws that are meant to be "universal", is incredibly focused and speaks in allegories.



> But I assure you, that if Newton were inserted into the Breaking Bad universe, he would *not* have behaved like Walter White.


That I believe.


> - I also don't think "personal agenda" is a defining trait of INTJs. In fact I would expect them to be primarily _impersonal_, as they are Thinkers, and I would leave the "personal agendas" to those who are Feelers.


Yeah and here I thought they were the most EMO of the bunch.



> - Facts and details establish credibility. If you expect INTJs to speak in a bunch of logical leaps that aren't backed up by facts, then you are living in your own universe with that one.


I would expect INTJs to say things that are incomprehensible for most people because it's backed up by dominant Ni, something that only they see.


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

> No, sending people to Mars is not a moral agenda.
> It is a personal logical agenda.
> It is an extremely subjective thinking, thinking that all people should move to Mars. It has nothing to do with someone's inner morality, it has everything to do with subjective thinking factors.


_All _people? Is it even possible? hence... humanity? sketchy, isn't it?
For me it's objective thinking (what's the best option, Te) backed up with subjective feeling (Fi, I want to improve this world in my own way).




> Because an ISTP is interested in taking logical steps (Ti) toward concrete goals (Se) with an underlying vision (Ni) that benefits - in his subjective personal thinking - all (Fe).


[/QUOTE]
Yes, but are his goals concrete enough? Isn't it financially irresponsible? Investing your fortune in a sinking ship, borrowing money from your friends isn't inferior Se? And why he does it? Because he 'knows' (dominant Ni) for some reason and 'wants' (Fi).


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

ukulele said:


> You're hilarious. Micromanaging is something that xSTPs do? I've lived with ESTP father all my life, he's an entrepreneur, he can't manage or micromanage shit! Same my ENTP brother and every other xSTP I've known.


That is a proof in itself. *sarcasm



> I'll tell you how it looks for an INTJ, we care about quality of the product, we are perfectionists, if people fail (and they often do in our eyes) do their job properly we will step in. Designing is in fact well suited for Ti but it's nothing that Te can't do(and enjoy).


I don't doubt it but it's not proof enough.



> And you can't ignore all of the other things he does! It's not enough! It's not a primary thing he does.


Yes it is.



> If designing/engineering (assume dominant Ti) is what he's made for, only, why he's not simply an engineer?


Because he's good at what he does?
Or someone who ascends "too high" in the ranks can't be anything other than a TJ?



> Just like many who work for him? Why isn't he an employee?


Once again the implication that STs are only good as employees, not managers. Hilarious.



> What drives him to keep wanting more and more if not Ni?


It _IS_ Ni. Who said tertiary functions aren't substantial?
For a lot of ENTPs Fe is important enough to become a comedian. Why can't ISTP's Ni work in a similar way?



> Because he smiles? C'mon!


No, because he always smiles, or jokes or in other ways tries to connect to the interviewer.

You wanna see a Te-Fi in motion? See Schwarzenegger. Or Cameron.



> LOL. Yes, INTJs are logical human beings. Eureka. His conclusions are about far future. His visions are accepted now as 'logical', because a) he's rich b) he's successful with his ideas... what if he wasn't?


He's rich because he's practical enough to implement his "visions" into realities.
He's got the skills you know.



> And who told you an INTJ can't be practical?


The SAME person who told you that ISTPs can't micromanage or become CEOs.

No one.



> Go and spend some time on the INTJ subforum. Your enneagram and your instinct matters a lot. We are not clones. We are capable of clashing with each other, A LOT.


Not relevant to the question here.


> What's your definition of grand vision?
> Plus you're ignoring life once again, go to the subforum and ask people what's their grand vision? Most of them lead an ordinary life with no masterplans in their heads. So I'd say that wanting to colonize Mars and the whole rest that he does in fact is... a grand vision.


You see, that's it.
Most people don't have vision like that in their head and you know why?
Because Ni DOESN'T MAKE a freaking sense.
Ni is not real, it is an irrational function, a mash of different believes, perspectives and visions that is incomprehensible in itself.

Not like _Let's go to Mars_.

It is not a incomprehensible thing, it is a logical thing that he even explains in many interviews, you just fail to see that he does that.



> What was Walter White's grand vision before he found out he won't live too long?


Ask him. Ni is invisible. All I know is that his behaviour is irrational (compared to other guys in those series, like Saul) and only makes sense to him.
He tries to explain it one or two times in the series but that's the thing with Ni.

YOU CAN'T.


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

jetser said:


> > That is a proof in itself. *sarcasm
> 
> 
> It's a pattern, my dear. Give me your proof that goes against this? Give me an example of an ISTP who loves to micromanage?
> ...


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Turi said:


> I'd say it's a skill, one of his best, and the reason he's able to learn things so quickly without prior experience.
> I have such a difficult time reconciling inferior Se with his ability to grasp, learn and absorb new information so quickly.
> 
> Ni is similar to Si in this respect, it wants new information bit by bit, let that shit sink in then proceed - Ne and Se are wayyyy better at 'more more more more more yes yes yes yes yes new new new new new information!!111!!'


INTJs are known for being intelligent bookworms obsessed by gaining knowledge. Highly inquisitive is the norm for INTJs (and then Ni leads us to know things we shouldn't really know -- pattern recognition, things are 'intuitive'). As the 'sink in' aspect of Ni happens subconsciously, there is no slow-down needed.

Beyond that though, Musk's IQ was estimated by SpaceX's cofounder to be in the 160-165 range. Musk has a photographic memory. These aspects can easily explain why he can absorb information at a freakish level (beyond anything normal for any mbti type).



jetser said:


> You know, even if you're right, you're a moron, sorry.


This is coming from the person who extrapolated from 'I spend 80% of my time at... doing engineering...' (said by Musk) to "he does nothing but engineering" (with the implication that engineering = ISTP, not INTJ -- the same idea you now distance yourself from) and subsequently offered a picture of him smiling as proof of Fe. So, a picture of one moment in time (never mind if you google image 'Elon Musk', the vast majority of his expressions are very serious) and a false conclusion with its implication you now deny -- that's the sum total of your argument to date (with a personal insult attached).

Here are the descriptions of ISTP and INTJ taken from myersbriggs.org -- I don't believe anyone would read these two descriptions and then pick ISTP for Musk. If you can't come up with a rational argument and you still persist, I'm going to have to assume you like arguing and that's your true intention here. Deliberately misleading information, nit-picking, saying nothing but 'nah' and making personal attacks do not constitute a coherent argument for Musk as ISTP.

INTJ
Have original minds and great drive for implementing their ideas and achieving their goals. Quickly see patterns in external events and develop long-range explanatory perspectives. When committed, organize a job and carry it through. Skeptical and independent, *have high standards of competence and performance - for themselves and others.*

ISTP
*Tolerant and flexible*, quiet observers until a problem appears, then act quickly to find workable solutions. Analyze what makes things work and readily get through large amounts of data to isolate the core of practical problems. Interested in cause and effect, organize facts using logical principles, value efficiency.



jetser said:


> No, because he always smiles, or jokes or in other ways tries to *connect* to the interviewer.


Connect is the correct word, that's exactly what us dominant SX (enneagram instinct) types do instinctively/effortlessly. 

Trying to fit everything into MBTI is a mistake. It's better to look specially for the things that must be there to be that type (Ni/Te vs Ti/Se, INTJ vs ISTP and choose based off the biggest evidence available, not 'hey I found a single picture of him smiling which I cherry picked to prove my hard to prove point' or 'here's this other thing which could be explained by many things')



> You wanna see a Te-Fi in motion? See Schwarzenegger. Or Cameron.


It's always funny having a non INTJ telling an INTJ what an INTJ is _really_ like. It might work better if it went the other way -- unless perpetuating stereotypes is your thing... If you're not Newton, Walt, Nietzsche or Schwarzenegger you have not been approved to be an INTJ! (never mind the irony: the diversity between those guys is HUGE)



ukulele said:


> You're ignoring Te. We execute Ni with Te.


This seems to be the game here -- ignore Te, the very thing that defines Musk in particular and is highly visible (the massive need for advancement, the freakish level of efficiency, the natural affinity for business/economics, the constant 'does this work?' effectiveness testing he does, the planning etc). Things like "I plan the future so I don't get bored" (Musk) and him being a CEO and a business magnate are just ignored to suit the argument 'he does engineering and has skills' (not that that would even separate ISTPs from INTJs).

Hi btw :love_heart:


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

Dare said:


> Hi btw :love_heart:


:strawberry:


----------



## RexMaximus (Jun 29, 2016)

Musk is definitely an INTJ. As @Dare and @ukulele have said, most of the inconsistencies with an archetypal INTJ can be explained by his Enneagram (1w9 so/sx) and him just being an exceptional human being. Obviously incredibly gifted, massive IQ, insane work ethic, visionary, etc. Not that him being exceptional necessarily points to INTJ over a different type, but all the other evidence does. 

All of the things that could be seen as Fe (caring for the fate of humanity, etc) can be explained by him having a primary social instinct. It’s a pretty large difference from the common SP 5 in INTJs. Think Karl Marx -a preoccupation with society at large, fixing societal problems and such. 

Elon is SP-blind in fact. It’s to some extent mitigated because of his strong Te, but it’s there. His SO instinct is always why he appears more open and less guarded or hostile than other INTJs. As for the way he talks, I do that sometimes too. Get me talking about something I’m excited or passionate about and I’ll be just like that. 

And IMO, typing him as INTJ is very simple. He’s got long-term vision in the way only Ni-doms do. He can take a single idea (like making rockets economically affordable) and run with it, even taking it to places no one else would dream of. Then he uses Te to make it insanely efficient and simple. Who would’ve thought a few years ago that we could reuse or rockets by dropping the thrusters back down from space? He not only came up with that conceptually, but then made it happen. 

He’s not as spacey as a typical INTJ/Ni-dom because his Te is through the roof. Trying to apply that standard to him is silly. 

He’s also a workaholic who structures his time to an absurd degree. I can’t see an ISTP doing that. Really any type but a TJ.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Dare said:


> INTJs are known for being intelligent bookworms obsessed by gaining knowledge. Highly inquisitive is the norm for INTJs (and then Ni leads us to know things we shouldn't really know -- pattern recognition, things are 'intuitive'). As the 'sink in' aspect of Ni happens subconsciously, there is no slow-down needed.
> 
> Beyond that though, Musk's IQ was estimated by SpaceX's cofounder to be in the 160-165 range. Musk has a photographic memory. These aspects can easily explain why he can absorb information at a freakish level (beyond anything normal for any mbti type).


'INTJs are known for being intelligent bookworms'.. 'highly inquisitive is the norm'.. okay, you're playing the stereotype game, I'm not interested in that.
Are other types incapable of being 'intelligent bookworms'? Are other types incapable of being 'highly inquisitive'?
Or are you typing Musk via what is essentially some kind of stereotypical probability 'the stereotypes say this, so it's probably the best-fit'?

IQ is irrelevant to type. Photographic memory is irrelevant to type.
Assuming either of those are relevant at all to the discussion, those aspects would support the idea of him being _any _type, and not INTJ specifically.

I don't want to sound rude - but I don't really see much of a point in responding to you further than this because the way you type people is too sketchy - you've said yourself you don't see a need for locking in inferior functions etc and imo, if we are to play the 'functions' game, then we should play it properly and cross-checking possible dominant functions with the inferior functions is a _requirement _for a solid argument regarding a persons dominant type.

So the way we type people is too fundamentally different (me wanting to lock functions into place, and not relying on stereotypes - you relying on stereotypes, attributing 'skills' to functions and not ensuring everything lines up correctly) for me to believe we can actually have a productive discussion here.
It'll just continue down the same path it is.


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Ocean Helm

You as a xxxp notice that difference quite easily. Good job. Nice to see the tonality is friendlier too. Im the stupidiest person here and a bit goofy too with my poor english. If Id show you my diplomas from UK unis Ive been through youd ask me to show you not only my passport, but drivers licence, bank card, private pilot licence and military ID card to actually belive those are mine. And also some IQ society stuff and the such. But. Turi was open about other possibilities too. Therefore HE is nothing short of wise. He actually wants to learn more about the case to have more solid roots to this analysis. So Im voting for the fact that he will, rather sooner than later be very objective about this matter.

Would you mind arguing me about the F/T aspect or the functions of the man? I love to do that, but please do that delicately with me as Im really not that smart as if youd look me in my eyes right now would mislead us to believe. 

Pls men, argue the F/T side. If you do that, you will all be very happy and you can move on to the other personalities from the list as friends not as compatators or allies. Its not about what perception wins, it shouldnt be so, but about whats the Truth



Ocean Helm. I have my pinky and the brain type of brains tuned from pinky to pinky. Narf! D


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Turi

but I don't feel like you would understand my response because you don't actual know what you're talking about

Now that I realize what I'm dealing with here, I understand the problem. 

You may be right. But. You need to treat that with caring, you gotta feel the pain of one dwelling in the dark. Love him, that Dare person and them all, like theyd be you. Then, from there, they will feel your caring and automatically submit to a safe environment to openly discuss possibilities. Now they are in defense mode. They way to help them out of that is to lead them into safety. You are SP first, you should definetely handle safety better than me who am SXso.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Man I am reading way too much Ti and it's lining up with inferior Fe, self above tribe - just from the info y'all are posting here.

It's like you guys are handing Elon as an IxTP to me on a platter and not even realizing it. 

Dudes weakest aspect is what? Communicating with other people. Lol.

How the hell do people read this and NOT get IxTP.


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

If any of you fellows wanna give it a go challenging the INFJ vs. INTJ or the rest perspective on Elon, just tag me in and Ill be more than happy to exchange few messages with you. Your own type doesnt matter to me. Ill handle you as delicately as something as low as me will ever be capable to.

Im fucking off to sleep now, since Im heading next week to Austin, USA - so as having a double flight tomorrow Im stressing about it bc the last time I flew the toilet wasnt clean enough (small quatity of dust on above the mirrors upperline) so Im a bit traumatised now. ..When I was married, I actually had a wife taking care of internal admin issues, but these days, as theres only the relatively sex orientated ultrakinky enfp girlfriend . soo Im still doing it all by myself.. 

Once upon a time, there was girl I fell deeply in love with whom offered to take care of my household for me.. But maybe that was just a beautiful dream of ours, stuff ppl see when they sleep. Many times in my life I wish I wasnt so fast in my moves. And rough.

But then again, that wouldnt be me, would it

I would be ATB, Prodigy with diesel power or clubbed to death from the matrix in my ears on a HR2 in 3 days from now. Just to feel alive


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Turi

You're really close. So close man. So close! )

Ti and Fe is correct. But not the order. The order is manipulated by situationals. Communication issues. possibly IXFX, right? Strong IXXX. 

Drill into it more. Show us the Se. Show us that few members around are right with the Ni dom. Do that mate, and you can close the case. Its your game mate, its yours to take it. Just show us those are true. And if you really strive you should be the best of us to demo the order too )))))


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> Man I am reading way too much Ti and it's lining up with inferior Fe, self above tribe - just from the info y'all are posting here.
> 
> It's like you guys are handing Elon as an IxTP to me on a platter and not even realizing it.
> 
> ...


ffs even in your model INTJs have LESS Fe than IxTPs do.


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Aluminum Frost

Go ahead and prove Elons NOT infj. Or that I havent taken 13 years of kravmaga lessons. And wouldnt like to invite you too to prepp. You would love it. Or, at least Id love it.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

anomalia said:


> @Aluminum Frost
> 
> Go ahead and prove Elons NOT infj. Or that I havent taken 13 years of kravmaga lessons. And wouldnt like to invite you too to prepp. You would love it. Or, at least Id love it.


I have no clue what you're trying to say, it's just a jumbled up mess. I don't have an opinion on Elon Musk's type, Idek who Elon Musk is.


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Aluminum Frost

Hahha, thats cause my IQ is lower than yours. The task is clearly overwhelming. Good luck with the cumming part with the drumms part. I really hope you wont me anyone like me in your entire life. Im just so jumbled pumbled mess, with a small penis who loves lamdas sooooo fucking much I can barely drumm the heads of them with the walls. I lllloooooovovvvveeeeeeee you. Im insanely in love with what you offer me. Its been such a pleasure .... and sigmas too... It really drags me down to reason, AND IM sooooo lovely when I drop therreee. Like a snake bite on a face. Insane how I just LOVEVEEEVEVEVEVEEEEE what that krav maga broght into my life. Im so nice and sooo unsharp and slow when that arouses me. Typing ppl one knows irl is NOTHING compared to that krav maga and a sweet heart on the other side. Someone really charming. Someone who coufused himself as being an alpha. EntpX's are really efficient in that too. Thats the main reason I LOVE THEM too. This thread is about the characters on those photos. Good luck touching ever reason in life. But then again, Im not there also. Im just insane and crazuyuuu. Gandhi is istj

All the best to that drums and cum stuff, pal


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> ffs even in your model INTJs have LESS Fe than IxTPs do.


Proof?
Also, what is 'less' Fe, exactly?


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> Proof?
> Also, what is 'less' Fe, exactly?


Are you saying IxTPs have Fe 4th or 8th? I don't know what other way you could interpret the word "less".


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Turi said:


> I don't give a damn what his type is via _dichotomy_.
> 
> So, you are in agreement that Elon would a Ti dominant, re: functions (forget dichotomy for a bit and yes I realize it's more credible and valid than functions at the moment).


It depends on the function model. For MBTI purposes he'd be Ni dominant. And in the Socionics model his vulnerable function would be Se which I think also fits him, which matches with Se inferior in the MBTI model.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> It depends on the function model. For MBTI purposes he'd be Ni dominant. And in the Socionics model his vulnerable function would be Se which I think also fits him, which matches with Se inferior in the MBTI model.


Why Se vulnerable? 



Aluminum Frost said:


> Are you saying IxTPs have Fe 4th or 8th? I don't know what other way you could interpret the word "less".


You view functions stacks as skill sets??


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Turi said:


> Why Se vulnerable?
> 
> 
> 
> You view functions stacks as skill sets??


No, you're avoiding the question, aren't you the one that just used the argument that "communicating is his weakest aspect"?


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Turi said:


> Se/Ne aside, the fact you've just suggested these perceiving functions as _not_ being information gathering processes (doesn't pass reality check) displays a fundamental lack of understanding of what sensing and intuition are.
> 
> Now that I realize what I'm dealing with here, I understand the problem.
> Please, do some research.
> ...


When I said:
"And, as I've mentioned numerous times, this view of Se/Ne as the learning/information gathering functions doesn't pass a reality check."

What I was saying was:
"And, as I've mentioned numerous times, this view (*your view*) of Se/Ne as *the* learning/information gathering functions doesn't pass a reality check."

Since that's _your_ idea I was referring to, that you have been saying over and over (that Se/Ne are the faster learning etc etc) and I've been challenging it over and over, I thought that would be clear.

I'm the one saying, again, that Ni is a perceiving function every bit as capable of taking in large quantities of information.

It seems like you are deliberately making this hard and trying to be condescending at every opportunity, even if you have to create an opportunity by twisting things 180 degrees to make it fit. Perhaps you had just misread and forgot what we had previously said. But since this has happened so many times, I doubt it. 

Whatever this is, whatever you're getting out of this, I no longer believe it's about typing Elon Musk. I'm tired of the twisting, the misinformation, the making it personal. 

At least you made it to INTP. Half way there isn't bad for you.

I'm out.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Dare said:


> When I said:
> "And, as I've mentioned numerous times, this view of Se/Ne as the learning/information gathering functions doesn't pass a reality check."
> 
> What I was saying was:
> ...


More twisting I see - where did I state explicitly that Se/Ne types are 'faster' learners? 
They like taking in lots of new information - this doesn't mean they understand it and have learnt it - and this also does not imply they learn better than other types.

I knew you were straw-manning. Thank you. 



> I'm the one saying, again, that Ni is a perceiving function every bit as capable of taking in large quantities of information.


I have literally never suggested it's not capable of this. 
You're straw-manning so hard up in here. 



> It seems like you are deliberately making this hard and trying to be condescending at every opportunity, even if you have to create an opportunity by twisting things 180 degrees to make it fit. Perhaps you had just misread and forgot what we had previously said. But since this has happened so many times, I doubt it.


Just calling out BS when I see it - I'll gladly stop - just ask me not to call you out on your bs. 



> Whatever this is, whatever you're getting out of this, I no longer believe it's about typing Elon Musk. I'm tired of the twisting, the misinformation, the making it personal.
> 
> At least you made it to INTP. Half way there isn't bad for you.
> 
> I'm out.


You're the one making it personal, I am _purely_ here for the function talk - why the hell would I care enough to make anything 'personal'? Lol. 
I'm not even sure I can _do _'personal'.

It's _definitely _about typing Elon, y'all just keep spouting off complete magic 8 ball typings and I call it out for what it is - wouldn't matter who it was, you or anyone else.


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Turi said:


> More twisting I see - where did I state explicitly that Se/Ne types are 'faster' learners?


Here:


> imo his Se, i.e his ability to gather observable information, ain't his inferior function.
> 
> I'd say it's a skill, one of his best, and the reason he's able to learn things so quickly without prior experience.
> I have such a difficult time reconciling inferior Se with his ability to grasp, learn and absorb new information so quickly.


And again here:


> ...gets addicted to learning about them (Se) so next thing you know, he's completely understood something within days, that takes others months/years i.e how he learnt BASIC... Long story short, ISTP from me.



We went over this yesterday. So not only have you forgotten what you yourself said, twice, and your personal opinion on it, you have forgotten (apparently) that I called you out on exactly this yesterday. You either have a very bad memory or you're playing games.




> They [Se] like taking in lots of new information - this doesn't mean they understand it and have learnt it - and this also does not imply they learn better than other types.


See your above quotes. 




> I have literally never suggested it's [Ni] not capable of this


[Re me saying Ni is capable of taking in large quantities of information]
You literally said:


> I have such a difficult time reconciling inferior Se with his ability to grasp, learn and absorb new information so quickly.


There is a clear implication that you believed Ni dominance could not grasp, learn and absorb new information quickly.


I'm glad you're changing your mind to something more accurate, it's just ridiculous the way you deny and 'forget' to pretend you didn't say what you literally just said. And then you pretend I'm saying the very thing you had said and argue against me -- arguing with your past self! Just say you changed your position or you realized you were wrong.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Dare said:


> Here:
> 
> And again here:
> 
> We went over this yesterday. So not only have you forgotten what you yourself said, twice, and your personal opinion on it, you have forgotten (apparently) that I called you out on exactly this yesterday. You either have a very bad memory or you're playing games.


Ah, I see the problem - I didn't say 'Se/Ne types = fast learners', or that they're faster learners than other types - this would attribute fast learning to Pe and I wouldn't attribute 'fast learning' to shit all - I simply suggested the way Se/Ne work i.e a preference for gathering lots and lots of new information likely contributes to _his _ability to learn quickly.
There's a difference here, in my head, I don't know how to articulate it in a way you will understand because you get so hung up on minutia.

Basically what I'm getting at is that it makes sense that someone who prefers to gather lots and lots of new information, would also be able to grasp new concepts quickly - _assuming that *individual* is a fast learner a_nd this isn't related whatsoever to cognitive functions. 

I'm not actually connecting the two together, they're separate things in my head. 
I can definitely see how you got that impression.



> [Re me saying Ni is capable of taking in large quantities of information]
> You literally said:
> There is a clear implication that you believed Ni dominance could not grasp, learn and absorb new information quickly.


Not in the slightest.


----------



## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Turi said:


> Why Se vulnerable?


Technically, I think Si vulnerable fits him the best, considering how he neglects personal comfort and whatever. But that would require him being an extravert which seems pretty ludicrous although LIE is my second choice. What he fits about PoLR Se is that he just doesn't seem to pay any attention to processing objects (Jungian context) in their immediate physical state. He is too analytical and future-focused.

Elon's college friend:


> He was the biggest dork I've ever met. He's actually de-dorkified by a 100 fold. It's been over 20 years, you're much cooler. I mean, I remember, like, when, exactly like, I was able to hangout with him, but back then it was kinda painful. You'd be like, he literally was the straight-edge, didn't drink, I'd always be like, "Elon! I think the police are here! Can you go deal with it", you're like, "Sure! I'm fine."


While he has worked on his image as mentioned in the quote, he is still someone who you will see stammering through interviews, trying to think of the right words, because his world is not a spontaneous one and I'd guess he has to "decode" his understanding. People have described him as having a pretty good handle on the atmosphere of a situation to know what to say to inspire people, and people mention enjoying his jokes, which is where I don't see vulnerable Fe working, and even his rough interviews can be seen as him fishing for the right language to appeal to the common man. Some of this can cross over to Se depending on how you look at it, but despite literally working with physical objects and the problem of how they relate to one another constantly, I see very little comfort with actual Sensing, as he prefers greatly to deal with these objects from behind a wall of abstraction.

In summary, vulnerable Se fits him, including better than PoLR Fe, although PoLR Si may be his technical best fit. I could actually see some sort of argument for Fi (look at his intimate relationships) but he is not ILE.

He uses a ton of Socionics Ti though, so maybe we can be in agreement on that.


----------



## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

.


----------



## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

I am just imaging deadpool fighting kylo right now lol.


----------



## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

Bruce Wayne is obsessed by the external order. He is looking for organization, the peace in Gotham. He does not seek action for personal ends, but for an absolute justice.

Te and probably Ni. He is not an excutant. His vision is extended over the long term, in strong autonomy with a good ability to delegate.

Vincent is obviously an ISTP.


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Haven't watched Cowboy Bebop in some time now but I wanna say Vicious probably isn't an INTJ


----------



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Sweet Mask (One Punch Man) and Light Yagami (Death Note) are hard to pin down. They're abnormal for introverts and extroverts.


----------



## sleeplesspinocchio (Mar 20, 2018)

The Conundrum said:


> [SUB][/SUB]
> 
> Nah, I identify a lot with Walter. Unless I'm also an ISTJ with a "sprinkle of narcissism".
> 
> ...


wouldnt u be identifying with his first extraverted function te (the cockiness, absoluteness, take handle of things right now mentality) prove me wrong bitch
for a long time he jusitifes his actions by his traditionalistic views : "it was my duty"
im just saying that its possible hes a low ne user rather than high ni... and it was towards the end of the show i felt that crystal clear si .. ill have to rewatch it tbh to remember exactly why


----------



## The Conundrum (Aug 23, 2017)

sleeplesspinocchio said:


> wouldnt u be identifying with his first extraverted function te (the cockiness, absoluteness, take handle of things right now mentality) prove me wrong bitch
> for a long time he jusitifes his actions by his traditionalistic views : "it was my duty"
> im just saying that its possible hes a low ne user rather than high ni... and it was towards the end of the show i felt that crystal clear si .. ill have to rewatch it tbh to remember exactly why


I never identified myself so much with a character as I did to Walter. 

1- Has a need to prove to himself that he can be the best in his area of choice, which ironically to him, turned out to be meth production and the drug business. In the end, it has less to do with his family or "his duty", as you said, and more to do with him. "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And... I was really... I was alive."

2- Can sometimes become delusional about how much in power he holds, creates an inner image of himself that does not correspond entirely with reality. (His relation with gus for example, he wasn't in control for the most of it, but behaved like he did)

3- Is extremely loyal towards his friends. He couldn't simply leave Jesse to his fate, he had to clean his mess every time, because he got attached to him.

4- Is thirsty for adventure, but is reluctant to risk what he has achieved so far. It's irrational to gamble what is solid and stable for the uncertainties of a risky future, even if the rewards are great. (Walter broke this barrier by accepting his inevitable, close at hand demise by cancer). "sometimes I feel like I never actually make, any of my own... choices. I mean, my entire life it just seems I never... had a real say about any of it. This last one, cancer, all I have left is how I choose to approach this."

5- Has his own way of thinking, morals included. Does not follow codes created by others, but critically judges them, taking what is perceived as correct and logical in order to achieve an end.

6- God complex? 

7- My greatest fear, for example, is of becoming useless; I'd rather die, literally. That could translate to Walter's inner fear of not being able to provide for his family, of "not being good enough for them". He was an extraordinary chemist who won nobel prizes and yet, ended up in an ordinary life, unable to pay for his own treatment, unable to pay his family's bills without having to submit himself to a low end job with an abusive boss. THAT right there, is what I would call my personal hell. 

I'm not the only one who identifies with him. Many other INTJs also do.


----------



## sleeplesspinocchio (Mar 20, 2018)

The Conundrum said:


> I never identified myself so much with a character as I did to Walter.
> 
> 1- Has a need to prove to himself that he can be the best in his area of choice, which ironically to him, turned out to be meth production and the drug business. In the end, it has less to do with his family or "his duty", as you said, and more to do with him. "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And... I was really... I was alive."
> 
> ...


oooh u identify with him, hes definately an intj then
1. the reason he did it was bc of his si fi, and he did look at it as his duty THE WHOLE TIME.. the show ends bc of the quote u chose "i did it for me..." he finally stops lying to himself ISTJISTJISTJISTJ
2. ***** has a personality disorder 
3. how does loyalty disprove istj 
4. si over ne 
5. ur talking abt fi.. goodbye
6. ***** has a personality disorder?
7. te has a fear of being useless idiot

again ur not proving anything by saying ppl identify with him.. cmon u know this
or maybe u dont


----------



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Breaking Bad is such a beautiful, fucked up story about love gone wrong and redemption. It was NEVER about his family, or providing for them, that was only his justification. It was about Gretchen (his ex gf and true love) and himself. 

Gretchen offers to pay for his cancer treatment. He'd rather save face *to her* by refusing but doesn't mind not saving face to his family by saying he accepted the money. He'd rather do immensely fucked up things, including lying to his family and _putting them in danger_, than take her up on her offer.

In the end it's Gretchen's coffee table he dumps $$$$$$$$$ on. He's obviously still badly burned about going to meet her family (with intentions to marry) many years earlier when her father & brothers told him he'd never be a part of their (wealthy) family (implying he's not good enough). He foolishly felt inferior and reacted by walking out on her (and their promising company and their Caltech/intellectual/true peers social circle). 

This was a mistake he obviously regretted immensely as he floundered in a life/family that never fit/accepted/loved/satisfied him at all. He's either a pain or a weirdo to them, but there was a time (flashback) to when Gretchen loved him for his brilliant mind (and it seems they had a far more romantic/deeper relationship than he does with his wife -- as seen by he & Gretchen discussing the human soul between kisses). 

Breaking Bad was his redemption, him 'proving' himself, even if it was only for him, in his own eyes. The fact that Gretchen can't see, all these years later, what's driving him makes it even more tragic (as does the now painfully obvious class distinction between them -- she finally rejects him herself, disgusted by his perplexing "not you" criminal behavior, right as he comes to accept himself -- if only he'd had that level of confidence all those years ago). 

His family doesn't even want his 'dirty' money (predictably). Walt is big on justifying generally, he has no perspective on himself. He's incredibly brilliant and incredibly blind at the same time. 


Walt-INTJ moments:
1. His inferior Se switching on in strange ways: fixating on the mustard on the doctor's clothing instead of the serious things the doctor is telling him. Chasing a fly around the meth lab like an obsessed maniac for a bizarrely long time. Or Se not switching on in the case of trying to carry a barrel rather than roll it, lol.
2. His dominant Ni: when he put a broken plate in the trash, he walked away and then had an 'ah ha' moment and went back to the trash to reassemble the plate (to find a piece, which could be used as a weapon, is missing). That's exactly how my Ni often works. He always has an out-of-the-box, big picture plan. 

He's INTJ enneagram 5 sp/sx integrating to 8 sp/sx (as Heisenberg).


----------



## The Conundrum (Aug 23, 2017)

sleeplesspinocchio said:


> oooh u identify with him, hes definately an intj then
> 1. the reason he did it was bc of his si fi, and he did look at it as his duty THE WHOLE TIME.. the show ends bc of the quote u chose "i did it for me..." he finally stops lying to himself ISTJISTJISTJISTJ
> 2. ***** has a personality disorder
> 3. how does loyalty disprove istj
> ...


1- He did it for himself, not for "his family", not "for duty". 
2- Not a personality disorder, Ni + Te. 
3- It doesn't, but no other type is more loyal than an INTJ.
4- Nope, that is an INTJ idiosyncrasy. ISTJs want stability all the time, they don't thirst for the unknown.
5- So? INTJ's are KNOWN for their free thinking, for detaching themselves from social norms and expectancies to follow their own paths, morality included.
6- INTJs are the most prone to have a god complex. 
7- You are simply ignoring the main point of this conversation. He is NOT a sensor, not in any way. HE LIVES inside his head!


----------



## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

The Bruce Wayne's suit is thought for the maximum psychological impact. Not for comfort and efficiency. Another clue for INTJ.

An ISTP would have chosen a dark balaclava.


----------



## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Conundrum

God complex indeed. Well said man. Perfectly put.

The only relief here is we are that not. Id imagine that to be a heck of a responsibility.

Id like to add to this list too.
Luiz Awazu Pereira da Silva

Breaking bad might be worth the time. Or maybe not. But the interpretation of the events was stylish. Nice new avatar pic btw. It reminds me of suicide potential every single one of us has. So deep.


----------



## sleeplesspinocchio (Mar 20, 2018)

The Conundrum said:


> 1- He did it for himself, not for "his family", not "for duty".
> 2- Not a personality disorder, Ni + Te.
> 3- It doesn't, but no other type is more loyal than an INTJ.
> 4- Nope, that is an INTJ idiosyncrasy. ISTJs want stability all the time, they don't thirst for the unknown.
> ...


:wink: ya hes probably intj


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

G.13 said:


> Bruce Wayne is obsessed by the external order. He is looking for organization, the peace in Gotham. He does not seek action for personal ends, but for an absolute justice.
> 
> Te and probably Ni. He is not an excutant. His vision is extended over the long term, in strong autonomy with a good ability to delegate.
> 
> Vincent is obviously an ISTP.


You say that based on The Dark Knight? Because I don't see that in that. I see a risk taking adventurous man who has a longer vision, yes, but doesn't really see the end and periodically needs advices and pushes where to advance in life. Fits tertiary Ni description.
And his quest to save Gotham's soul seems more like an inferior Fe progress. ISTP characters often fight for things bigger than themselves (James Bond included) without ever realizing why they do it.


Vincent might be ISTP.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dare said:


> Walt-INTJ moments:
> 1. His inferior Se switching on in strange ways: fixating on the mustard on the doctor's clothing instead of the serious things the doctor is telling him. Chasing a fly around the meth lab like an obsessed maniac for a bizarrely long time. Or Se not switching on in the case of trying to carry a barrel rather than roll it, lol.
> 2. His dominant Ni: when he put a broken plate in the trash, he walked away and then had an 'ah ha' moment and went back to the trash to reassemble the plate (to find a piece, which could be used as a weapon, is missing). That's exactly how my Ni often works. He always has an out-of-the-box, big picture plan.
> 
> He's INTJ enneagram 5 sp/sx integrating to 8 sp/sx (as Heisenberg).


Yes, chasing that fly is a classic Se inferior moment. Fixing on a part of a reality which doesn't make sense but you somehow feel it "invaded" your world and it needs to be chased away.

More INTJ moment: when they go find a new place for cooks and he spots a piece of fabric and says "_perfect_!"


----------



## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

jetser said:


> I don't think in dichotomies. He's clearly not an intuitive. Alfred says The Joker is after something other than money and he goes "???".
> I bet you that every intutive in the world understands The Joker right away.
> He's a James Bond action hero type not an intuitive.
> 
> (and I also bet you that no intutive wants to spend his nights capturing minor criminals)


You're right that Batman isn't an N. Not even close. 



Aluminum Frost said:


> Batman isn't a P at all.


You were right. 



Aluminum Frost said:


> An ISTP uses Se (P), an INTJ uses Te (J) so I'm using functions. Batman is planned, methodical, not spontaneous and he wont kill the Joker cause of his Fi ethics. I'm gonna ignore your arguments against him being N as they don't make any sense and I'm not arguing he's N anyways. He's an ISTJ.


Agreed. Batman is an ISTJ.


----------



## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

jetser said:


> periodically needs advices and pushes where to advance in life.


I think everyone needs advice to advance in life or in his work. He is a super hero, so also a super INTJ with a global mastery of his cognitive abilities.

The End, or the rather, the finality, is the peace in Gotham.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

G.13 said:


> I think everyone needs advice to advance in life or in his work. He is a super hero, so also a super INTJ with a global mastery of his cognitive abilities.
> 
> The End, or the rather, the finality, is the peace in Gotham.


That is a very general thing to say. The point is that he starts something without knowing where it leads.
INTJs tend to know where things lead and they want to control it. An INTJ "superhero" is like Ozymandias, not Batman.


----------



## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

*Bane*, the mercenary, is an ISTP.

. _The most simple plans are the most effective_.



















. _The most daring decisions make the most beautiful promises of victory_.

. _For a unit commander, the time for the performance of an operation is a categorical imperative; its sole purpose must be fulfilling its mission within the prescribed time_.

. _The speed of movement and cohesion in the organization of units are decisive factors_.












. _It is advisable to use tricks and subterfuges of all kinds, if only to sow uncertainty in the mind of the enemy commander, to hold him back, to hesitate_.

*(The Blood Transfusion)*


. _A command-in-chief must have a good knowledge of the field, know the enemy position and that of his troops. It is often the best overview that wins the decision on the battlefield and not the greater tactical skill of any of the opposing generals._ 

*(Bane under the secret hiding place of Wayne)*



Erwin Rommel (I)STP


----------



## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Bane himself in the comics was more of the brute type - so I'm inclined to believe that he was meant to be as close to an ESTP as possible. I also don't think that Nolan's Bane is ISTP either. He has too much Fe because one of his primary motivators all his life was his love for Talia Gul.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

G.13 said:


> *Bane*, the mercenary, is an ISTP.
> 
> . _The most simple plans are the most effective_.
> 
> ...


Bane is not ISTP in the movie.


----------



## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> Bane himself in the comics was more of the brute type - so I'm inclined to believe that he was meant to be as close to an ESTP as possible. I also don't think that Nolan's Bane is ISTP either. He has too much Fe because one of his primary motivators all his life was his love for Talia Gul.



Yes, in the comics. 

His primary motivation is revenge for his confinement. Symbolically, his first action is to release the prisoners of Gotham. And you can be madly in love, without being connected with Fe. I would also say he is loyal.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

I think the moral of Nolan's Batman is that Batman is surrounded by all kinds of intuitives in his life and he's always a step behind them. But ultimately he beats them by technique, not foresight.
Ra's al Ghul, Joker, Miranda, Scarecrow, Bane are all intuitives in my opinion.

Harvey Dent, Jim Gordon, Catwoman and Alfred are sensors.


----------



## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

In the same situation.


NTJ: life



















STP: death


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

G.13 said:


> In the same situation.
> 
> 
> NTJ: life
> ...


I don't think that makes the difference.

But as I said, my problem is not the Fe/Fi divide.
My problem is the N/S divide, I just don't see Batman as a dominant intuitive.


----------

