# When a girl says she’s looking for ‘honesty’, what does she mean exactly?



## Celtsincloset (Feb 17, 2014)

Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


That's a tough one. I'm not sure how to react to that. Either way, you're screwed.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Perhaps she wants you to honestly tell her that she doesn't look fat in those jeans?


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

I wanted honesy. I've dated both 1.) honest people, and 2.) those who would get caught/be super obvious about minor lies while pretending to be honest. 

I trust the first. Oh the second, I have become really insecure(because if they're lying to me about something pretty minor, what else are they lying about?), and got weird due to hyper fixing on the feelings of that insecurity (ADHD can be really rude sometimes) and started asking all sorts of bizzare/invasive shit out of that insecurity. I'm not trying to defend that behavior because it was an unhealthy reaction of me, but I'm just stating that it's interesting with actually honest people, I don't really have that. 

I married a dutch person (known as a very blunt culture that is "overly honest" with Autism. He's very honest lol.

So anecdotally, at least, yes.


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## odinthor (Mar 22, 2017)

It means that when you're pitching woo, she doesn't want the traditional blather (_You're the most beautiful girl I've ever seen! Baby, you mean more to me than life itself! I'd climb the highest mountain for you, give you everything I have, just for one kiss!_).

They don't always like what they get instead, though: _You're fairly attractive, Honey. While I kind of like you, I hope I never have to choose between you and poker nights with the guys! For a kiss, I'd maybe cross the street for you, and lend you a twenty if you promise to pay it back by next weekend!_


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

Trustworthiness. Consistent track record, reliability. For me anyway.


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## Celtsincloset (Feb 17, 2014)

Miharu said:


> Trustworthiness. Consistent track record, reliability. For me anyway.


Is there honesty in appearances, where one can look capable, but in execution be totally unreliable?

If I seemed like an extrovert on the phone, but to her seemed to be very introverted person in real life, is this dishonesty as well?



odinthor said:


> It means that when you're pitching woo, she doesn't want the traditional blather (_You're the most beautiful girl I've ever seen! Baby, you mean more to me than life itself! I'd climb the highest mountain for you, give you everything I have, just for one kiss!_).
> 
> They don't always like what they get instead, though: _You're fairly attractive, Honey. While I kind of like you, I hope I never have to choose between you and poker nights with the guys! For a kiss, I'd maybe cross the street for you, and lend you a twenty if you promise to pay it back by next weekend!_


This is why I choose my words carefully, but maybe some people aren’t good with that, so they tend to say things for the feelings. I get an idea now.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

It means she's looking for genuineness and generally, no games for her affection. The fact that you took it that way means you're probably not going to understand one another at all.


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## angeleyes (Feb 20, 2013)

Ninety-percent of the eggs are dead?


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


It means not lying to her for your advantage.

You could straight lie to her i.e making yourself sound better than you are, you could lie about how much u make, how tall you are, your achievements/accomplishments, your family background etc... You could purposely not disclose how much u make to downplay your wealth as to not attract gold diggers, you could lie about your social status/circle and who u know, you could lie about how many girls you're dating simultaneously while seeing her etc... It even includes giving fake compliments and lacking sincerity in what u say etc... like a Yes man/Simp to get into her pants.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

People can often claim they want honesty when they have a hard time being direct about their own intentions, thus making the other party seem more liable than themselves. Always remember to hold them accountable as well, and don't put up with a person who "tests" you a lot. Again, it shows indirectness and there comes a point where if they aren't trusting you after you've proven otherwise then they may be the one who you should be wary of.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

Call me crazy, but when a girl says they're looking for honesty, I usually think it means they're looking for honesty.🤷‍♀️ As for specifics, it depends on the girl, I guess. I think a lot of people, in general, are dishonest or at least tell pretty white lies all day long. When in doubt, just ask for clarification. Maybe she's been cheated on/burned in the past and doesn't want to be screwed over again. In that case, she wants full transparency. That would have been my first thought. But really, there's not enough context to say one way or the other.


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

Celtsincloset said:


> Is there honesty in appearances, where one can look capable, but in execution be totally unreliable?
> 
> If I seemed like an extrovert on the phone, but to her seemed to be very introverted person in real life, is this dishonesty as well?


I’m talking more along the lines of following through with what you say. Do your actions match your words? If you claimed to be reliable, but turned out to be unreliable in reality, then you have been dishonest. My perception of you vs how you really are isn’t it. 

If you seemed extroverted over the phone, but seemed introverted in real life, I’d just assume it’s got to do with nerves and comfort. I am a lot less talkative in real life, I know how it goes. So I never claim I am as talkative in real life as I am behind the screen, that would be dishonest.


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## Laughmore (Jul 10, 2015)

May as well request that your next partner is also a good person, people gettin picky these days

It's not like liars see a profile that demands honesty, and then moves onto another that doesn't. "If I find out you're fabricating your identity, I will walk right out that door." lol. In a way it's a bit asinine without more detail, but you know, everyone is doing their best to articulate their need for trust. It's not easy to know what's TMI.
Besides the obvious, "no cheaters and thieves" baked into a simple request for honesty, maybe they could also mean they don't enjoy being talked up - all the posturing and exaggeration with some "styles" of courting. I swear some girls think it's cute when some dudes run their mouth trying to impress. I guess if you're attractive enough, the posturing is perceived as flattery, +10 points if you blush while doing it, sigh. ("You would exaggerate to impress meeeeeee?" wtf peacocks on Discovery)
Maybe they are talking about honesty about feelings, "sharing secrets," and they are a safe person to confide in, etc. Personally, anyone I'd want to confide in would articulate these things, but hey different strokes.

If you dating pool is super young don't read into it too much because no one has practice articulating what they want. If they're over 25 and don't have words for feelings yet, and you're interested in such things enough to be on PerC... stay away imo


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Laughmore said:


> ("You would exaggerate to impress meeeeeee?" wtf peacocks on Discovery)


lmao


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

> When a girl says she’s looking for ‘honesty’, what does she mean exactly?


she means , honesty . 
btw. never forget , that women are by galaxiesfar more intelligent than men ( besides individual blocks or personalitywise reserve etc.pp.), which is extremly logical, as they give birth and are ( must be by nature) multidimensionaldeep by contrast to men, generally spoken .exceptions prove the rule.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Honesty and trusts is important however I’m not too attracted to those who are unnecessarily blunt ( a blunt person can also be dishonest ) 
There are many incidents where the truth isn’t necessary like if I were to tell someone something personal about myself I wouldn’t want them to tell everyone else about it because they decided to tell the truth . Perhaps that’s what she meant but who knows 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JimT (May 31, 2010)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


Depends on context.

First thing that comes to my mind: If I saw that in an on-line dating ad, then a request for "honesty" would mean that the girl in question is looking for a long-term relationship and trying to avoid players or f*ckboys or whatever.

From what I've seen, on-line dating has all kinds of codewords for women to indicate whether they're simply looking for a hot guy to party with and a quick hook-up, as opposed to someone more suitable for a long-term relationship, as opposed to a financial relationship (sugar daddy), and so on. If an ad from a women asks for "honesty," that usually signals that she's trying to avoid the guys who trade in pickup lines and one-night stands. IOW, it's a shorthand way of saying that she's specifically looking for something more long-term. 

OLD has a strong hook-up culture, so you generally have to signal if you're looking for something more than just a hook-up.

So maybe the girl in question has picked up the lingo from checking out on-line dating ads.

Again, just my first impression.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I might be skeptical somehow. I guess I'm a bit cynical. To me it might sound a lot like "I want honesty, but not too much honesty to the point that I don't like you any more."


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

More often than not, both men and women on dating apps will be highly influenced by appearance. Dating is often treated as a psychological game to get a person's needs met with as little effort as possible, be it physical or emotional. We live in a world where power takes precedence over trust and honesty. It makes lowering your walls all the more difficult.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't think it is honesty, I think she means acceptance.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

She means conditional honesty. That's honesty, unless the truth is unpleasant to hear, in which case, she wants a comforting lie. Which means, generally, not honesty but a comforting lie instead. Men lie all the time to get into women's pants, and to stay in women's pants, because that's what works. If honesty got results in dating, all it would take would be to ask "wanna have sex ?", and have a 50% success rate with no additional hoops to jump through (and yes, even serious relationships would start like that too, for the most part). That doesn't work like that sadly, the only women you're gonna get like that is women you reasonably shouldn't want, and who will be drunk on top of that.

Generally an unpleasant truth is not being heard because the "form" is a problem. She doesn't necessarily disagree with _what_ you say, although she can, but with _how_ you say it. It's too blunt, it's not nice enough, it hurts her feelings, blah blah blah, whatever. There's always gonna be a reason for why you're the bad guy for having been honest.

And when it's none of that, it (honesty) brings out one (or many) of her insecurities, and that creates drama for years to come.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Honesty can be equated to people's subjective truth but it's not necessarily objective truth or is only a component of the truth.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I think honesty, in a relationship context, is about the intentions and the intimacy of the two.

So if someone is trying to speak in a way that reflects their understanding (which could be wrong) and also express that understanding and "truth" in a way that the other person can access...

Then the other person is open to listening to the truth from the first person, and they make an effort to understand, to ask questions, to feel out what it is the person is presenting to them in a way that they can apprehend as the truth. To listen.

Or something. I Don't feel like going into it or cleaning this concept up (a poet or artist said it first, which is where I got this idea from, but unfortunately I don't have the exerpt where they talked about it much better than I am). 

But it is sort of like a process...and communication is always a process and full of potential problems, but the intention and the effort to be truthful and understanding is what makes honest communication possible.

Trust and emotional and intellectual intimacy both require honesty.

It can also be difficult to communicate deeper things with someone, like feelings--so this is probably when it becomes even more of an exchange or a dance...rather than dry facts. 

You can also communicate things with actions--like communicate love by taking care not to harm your partner's feelings when you are telling them the truth you know they need...if you're being honest with yourself and you're listening to them.

But it's usually not perfect, which is also why it's good it's an ongoing process you always have to put effort into (expression of truth and also receiving it.)

Communication can also break down if one partner refuses to listen or doesn't believe the other partner is telling the truth even when that is what they are trying to do--like when you talk about emotions and intentions, that only you can know...if another person isn't willing to listen to you, or they try to tell you how you feel or what your intentions are.

Every girl is different though--you should just ask the girl what she feels or thinks about honesty and what that means to her and share what it means to you.


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## Celtsincloset (Feb 17, 2014)

Lonewaer said:


> She means conditional honesty. That's honesty, unless the truth is unpleasant to hear, in which case, she wants a comforting lie. Which means, generally, not honesty but a comforting lie instead. Men lie all the time to get into women's pants, and to stay in women's pants, because that's what works. If honesty got results in dating, all it would take would be to ask "wanna have sex ?", and have a 50% success rate with no additional hoops to jump through (and yes, even serious relationships would start like that too, for the most part). That doesn't work like that sadly, the only women you're gonna get like that is women you reasonably shouldn't want, and who will be drunk on top of that.
> 
> Generally an unpleasant truth is not being heard because the "form" is a problem. She doesn't necessarily disagree with _what_ you say, although she can, but with _how_ you say it. It's too blunt, it's not nice enough, it hurts her feelings, blah blah blah, whatever. There's always gonna be a reason for why you're the bad guy for having been honest.
> 
> And when it's none of that, it (honesty) brings out one (or many) of her insecurities, and that creates drama for years to come.


You’re talking about one chick mate. Not all of them. And one guy too (“Men lie all the time to get into women's pants, and to stay in women's pants, because that's what works.”) Not all of them.

She could have even meant that she wants someone to tell her if things aren’t working, rather than to stay around for shallow reasons like _some_ sex. Most women are after men who will be staying around, and be a pillar for their family and parent for their children. That’s perhaps their biological coding.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Celtsincloset said:


> You’re talking about one chick mate. Not all of them. And one guy too (“Men lie all the time to get into women's pants, and to stay in women's pants, because that's what works.”) Not all of them.
> 
> She could have even meant that she wants someone to tell her if things aren’t working, rather than to stay around for shallow reasons like some sex. Most women are after men who will be staying around, and be a pillar for their family and parent for their children. That’s perhaps their biological coding.


Easy with that biology stuff, the NTJ ladies are gonna come after you.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

Celtsincloset said:


> You’re talking about one chick mate. Not all of them. And one guy too (“Men lie all the time to get into women's pants, and to stay in women's pants, because that's what works.”) Not all of them.
> 
> She could have even meant that she wants someone to tell her if things aren’t working, rather than to stay around for shallow reasons like _some_ sex. Most women are after men who will be staying around, and be a pillar for their family and parent for their children. That’s perhaps their biological coding.


Ah, the "not all" argument. See ? Honesty is presented, yet it is disputed, for no other reason than hurt feelings. I don't know if you're a man or a woman, but you prove my point either way, and you sure react to honesty like a woman or a white knight would.

No, I'm talking about the vast majority of women and the vast majority of men. I'm making generalizations. It's funny how I'm not allowed to generalize, but you are ("Most women are after men who will be staying around, and be a pillar for their family and parent for their children. That’s perhaps their biological coding."). Maybe it's also their biological coding for them react to honesty the way they do, exactly the way I described it. The fact that there are exceptions is irrelevant, exceptions don't make rules, they don't make understanding of the world, or organizing said world, possible.

You can't just discard unflattering generalizations, saying I can't generalize, and then proceed to yourself generalize. If generalizing is bad, then it's bad, but it makes the second half of your post is completely unreceivable because that's what you're doing too. Just because yours is "not unflattering" doesn't mean is superior in terms of a value judgment. *So either I can't generalize, but then you can't, or you can generalize but then I can too*. So we'll say I can generalize, because you're not going to stop me from doing it, and you can generalize. Agreed ? Agreed.

Regarding sex being "shallow", I'll argue that in terms of survival of the species, sex is more important than men staying around and being pillars for their families. Some mammals (leopards for example) don't have that fatherly support and protection, and when it's time to mate, you can trust that they're wet humping (barb humping, in the case of felines) a lot more than the average married couple every year. However, if we don't have sex, there's no reproduction, there's no family, there's no one to be a pillar for. So I'm gonna be extremely generous and reasonable here, and consider that both men's interests and women's interests are equal. What you listed is : women's interests. Sex is : men's interest. If sex is "shallow", then everything you listed is "shallow" too, because equality. I won't develop it here, but the argument could be made that they aren't equal, and that the men's interests are more important.
I can put it another way if you prefer : your generalization about what they're after is accurate, I agree, however : how are they gonna get all of that if they can't even satisfy their man's needs, which primarily include sexual release ? Why should a man provide all of that if he's not getting sex ? You could argue that most men also want kids and a family, but it still all goes through sex, and I will argue that women want it too even if only to have kids. Also, we would be exctinct by now, if men didn't have that "shallow" instinct. Another descriptive generalization : on average, men are initiating the courting process, and on average, women aren't. It happens punctually, but not enough to sustain the species. 

You do like one-way streets it would seem, it's interesting how they systematically benefit women and not men, those streets. It's never equal, nor is it ever benefiting men. It always goes the same way.


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

Antiparticle said:


> I don't think it is honesty, I think she means acceptance.


DO YA KNOW HER!


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## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


Could mean don't lie about your pp size.

Could mean don't make her have to check your DMs.

Could mean are you gonna marry her after a while or is she just gonna be your bouncy toy forever.

I mean, could mean many things, but you know, there are ways to ensure more honesty in a couple.

For once, I wouldn't date a girl that has a facebook, instagram, twitter and other such insane places. That dramatically reduces the pool. But that's the point, isn't it? These places are the graves of honesty. It's where honesty lies broken.


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## Celtsincloset (Feb 17, 2014)

Lonewaer said:


> Ah, the "not all" argument. See ? Honesty is presented, yet it is disputed, for no other reason than hurt feelings. I don't know if you're a man or a woman, but you prove my point either way, and you sure react to honesty like a woman or a white knight would.
> 
> No, I'm talking about the vast majority of women and the vast majority of men. I'm making generalizations. It's funny how I'm not allowed to generalize, but you are ("Most women are after men who will be staying around, and be a pillar for their family and parent for their children. That’s perhaps their biological coding."). Maybe it's also their biological coding for them react to honesty the way they do, exactly the way I described it. The fact that there are exceptions is irrelevant, exceptions don't make rules, they don't make understanding of the world, or organizing said world, possible.


A majority of men who lie to get into women's pants, and a majority of women who have the same experience as you described regarding men being honest? I wonder who is right, because what I meant was that the majority of such swings the other way. Since you've misunderstood me, should I bother reading the rest of this?

Your _honesty_ is an honest opinion, and maybe you're right in that a majority of men who dole out their honest opinions will create drama and insecurity for years to come for women, OR, it could be that most men are like myself, who scrutinise their opinions, understanding that personal biases don't hold the truth, and so there's no issue there for women.

For me, the truth is honesty.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Celtsincloset said:


> A majority of men who lie to get into women's pants, and a majority of women who have the same experience as you described regarding men being honest? I wonder who is right, because what I meant was that the majority of such swings the other way. Since you've misunderstood me, should I bother reading the rest of this?
> 
> Your _honesty_ is an honest opinion, and maybe you're right in that a majority of men who dole out their honest opinions will create drama and insecurity for years to come for women, OR, it could be that most men are like myself, who scrutinise their opinions, understanding that personal biases don't hold the truth, and so there's no issue there for women.
> 
> For me, the truth is honesty.


From the articles I have read, men lie more than women and they lie bigger lies.

However, only a small portion of men tend to lie a lot--something like 40% of the lies are done by only a small segment of men--so it's not "true," by my understanding, to say that men lie, because it might just be a few liars that are male that tend to do it the most.

I have also heard it's more common for extroverted men to embellish or exaggerate, which could be seen as a type of lying.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


yes. its actually really simple. she wants to not be lied to.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

I always just interpreted it as she wants a guy who isn't a player, which is understandable.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

Celtsincloset said:


> A majority of men who lie to get into women's pants, and a majority of women who have the same experience as you described regarding men being honest? I wonder who is right, because what I meant was that the majority of such swings the other way. Since you've misunderstood me, should I bother reading the rest of this?


It's the same. If most women are being lied to by men, then men who deal with women mostly lie to them. Or, the men who are truly honest generally deal much less with women, either because they don't want to, or because women don't want them to and reject them/drive them away.
Hell, advertisement companies and magazines lie to women. Why ? Because it sells. The consumer base is in majority composed of women, so ads are tailored towards women. Whether ads are honest or lying, women buy.



Celtsincloset said:


> Your _honesty_ is an honest opinion, and maybe you're right in that a majority of men who dole out their honest opinions will create drama and insecurity for years to come for women, OR, it could be that most men are like myself, who scrutinise their opinions, understanding that personal biases don't hold the truth, and so there's no issue there for women.


You really think I only speak from my own personal experience do you ? You really think women compare notes and talk with each other, and that men don't ? That men aren't deductive problem solvers, or that they are, but don't/won't try to resolve that one ? We do. We just don't include women in our discussions, because they systematically dismiss and discard our issues, points, experiences, this has been proven many many times on this forum. I've already linked the discussion between Destiny and Aba that's on YT, somewhere in the section, but they address this issue among others. The only spaces that men have to talk about their issues are fringe internet communities. Whereas women have their spaces in main media.
So, we do ask each other, "uh, is this normal ? It feels like it's not normal/healthy". And when pretty much everyone in the space has a story to relate to that exact point, with the same experience with similar solutions, you stop painting a perfect picture, and you start to see what's happening at the scale of larger populations than just you and your close friends.

Comparing notes, it's been pretty well demonstrated that lying to women brings positive results in dating. Being honest in dating… is variable to say the least. At best it doesn't improve the results much if at all, at worst, it is being received negatively and brings negative results. So far I've tried to stay honest (still do), and I can tell you it doesn't make things easier, because women being naturally more selective than men, _anything_ that you do, or say (like, the truth), (or are,) as a man, can be used to disqualify you as a potential mate. In that specific case, women say they want "honesty", but it should absolutely not be understood as "honesty" as a blank statement, which is how we, men, understand the word. It's very conditional and would need assumption of a lot of things for it to be taken at word value. That's the bigger picture. And for men, for who dating is a numbers game, the big picture is the truth.


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## eeo (Aug 25, 2020)

Lonewaer said:


> Men lie all the time to get into women's pants, and to stay in women's pants, because that's what works. If honesty got results in dating, all it would take would be to ask "wanna have sex ?", and have a 50% success rate with no additional hoops to jump through (and yes, even serious relationships would start like that too, for the most part). That doesn't work like that sadly, the only women you're gonna get like that is women you reasonably shouldn't want, and who will be drunk on top of that.


"Women you reasonably shouldn't want". What kind of women are those men want to have sex with? The quality, dateable kind of women but who don't really want to date (without those additional hoops to jump through)?

Would men be able to handle the honesty? When they're rejected as men women reasonably shouldn't want (for only wanting sex, and therefore being of lower quality themselves)? I just wonder which matters more when the lies are created - getting sex, or not being rejected. 

It is an interesting game where both parties feel the need to put up a facade to get what they want. Neither one is really happy. Because women want sex too. But they don't want to be branded as sluts, and they don't want to be used either. So it's fair to say that sometimes women jump through the hoops to get that tiny bit of respect that's only reserved for women who men deem dateable.

So the lie is created by men who think they have to lie to get into women's pants, and women who think they have to lie so they wouldn't be thought of as sluts. Interesting.


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## Eu_citzen (Jan 18, 2018)

Wouldn't it be better to ask her? lol


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

eeo said:


> "Women you reasonably shouldn't want". What kind of women are those men want to have sex with? The quality, dateable kind of women but who don't really want to date (without those additional hoops to jump through)?
> 
> Would men be able to handle the honesty? When they're rejected as men women reasonably shouldn't want (for only wanting sex, and therefore being of lower quality themselves)? I just wonder which matters more when the lies are created - getting sex, or not being rejected.


I'm not sure what your question is, but if there is the need to explain that a woman who responds positively to "wanna smash ?" is little work for a man to get sex, but his most unsafe bet possible for a long term relationship, I don't know what to say. Because if she says "yes" to that, she'll say "yes" to pretty much any proposition, and long term, men would rather have someone who can keep it in her pants.

If men can handle the honesty ? Yes, much better than women on average. The amount of utterly crazy things a non negligible amount of women will do out of spite for having been rejected is insane. It ranges from "annoying" to right out abusive and illegal stuff. Physical abuse, destruction of property, stalking, etc. If your idea is that men can't because in your experience they have seemed to lose their minds when you rejected them, that's still better handling than how women handle it. And if a man is in it just for sex, and is honest about that with a woman, you can trust that he is confident enough to not care about the answer or about it ending at any point, and move on, which is the absolute best way to handle the honesty. The dudes who lose their minds… for the most part they're genuine, just terribly badly socially calibrated. They're not in it just for the sex. When women have that perception of those men, that's women completely misjudging them. Another proof of women being terrible judges of character.

What really skews our perceptions of that is that for the most part, men don't really have to reject women (I know I've had to reject more gay men than women myself), whereas women reject men all the time.



eeo said:


> It is an interesting game where both parties feel the need to put up a facade to get what they want. Neither one is really happy. Because women want sex too. But they don't want to be branded as sluts, and they don't want to be used either. So it's fair to say that sometimes women jump through the hoops to get that tiny bit of respect that's only reserved for women who men deem dateable.


I can agree with that yes. Except, how much of each population is deemed attractive to the other population ? When in the eyes of men an average woman is a 5, in the eyes of women, the average man is 7 (this has been studied by OKC, they since removed that blog post). If each population goes for the "above average" of the other population, then it's easy to see that the "bangable men" are far less than "bangable women". And men will on top of that seize every opportunity and lower their standards to a degree just to bang, it is what it is.
There are also different scales, different boxes, that men and women use to judge the opposite sex. There is the box "don't want to deal with them in any way", that's for both men and women. Then the differences start. Women have a "would date" box, and a "would not date, only befriend" box. Men however, have a "would date seriously" box, and a "would only bang but never take seriously" box. Why do I say that ? Well, where a woman would "friendzone" a man, the equivalent is not an equal friendzone from him, it's : he would smash, but never date her seriously. The equivalent to a man being friends with a woman is a woman who's in a casual situationship in which she'd probably like to date him, but he doesn't want to. And men's initial standards for smashing are abysmally low.

When you combine those two aspects, what that means is : men would bang the vast majority of women, very few of which are dateable, and women would bang very few men, the vast majority of that very few, they would also date if possible. As you can see it's completely opposite.



eeo said:


> So the lie is created by men who think they have to lie to get into women's pants, and women who think they have to lie so they wouldn't be thought of as sluts. Interesting.


Sure. Is that an overarching "lie" that's created that people have to lie, or is it just the reality of our biological instincts and sexual strategies and we all do what we have to in order to get what we want ?


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


Yes, men can be dishonest. They can lie because they just want to fuck a person and are terrified of saying it because then they problably won't be able to fuck the person anymore.


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## eeo (Aug 25, 2020)

Lonewaer said:


> I'm not sure what your question is, but if there is the need to explain that a woman who responds positively to "wanna smash ?" is little work for a man to get sex, but his most unsafe bet possible for a long term relationship, I don't know what to say. Because if she says "yes" to that, she'll say "yes" to pretty much any proposition, and long term, men would rather have someone who can keep it in her pants.


There wasn't really a question that needed answering. Just unfinished thoughts inspired by what you said.

So is it still about keeping an eye out for a possible long term relationship even when such men keep telling themselves it's mostly about sex? "I'll smash until I find the one" kind of thing, even if it's subconscious?

What about reputation among women...are the lies actually about keeping face so they'd have the opportunity to have that long term relationship some day? Because the thing I'm having an issue with is the two separate worlds that don't seem to match well - men who want to "smash" actually wanting a long term relationship, and holding the "smashing" against women when they've done the exact same thing. Kind of a have your cake and eat it too situation.

And then, when these men finally want that long term relationship, are they just ok with living with the lies in their past? Because, to me, that's such an unpleasant load of baggage to live with, why even bother with it in the first place. New relationship, new me?

I wonder if Tinder era has made things easier for men. And women as well. That they just enjoy the liberty of not lying so much to get what they want. Or has it become automatic, because deep down they're all looking for that perfect long term relationship but wanting sex keeps winning, so the lying must continue?



Lonewaer said:


> If men can handle the honesty ? Yes, much better than women on average.


The point I was trying to make is that if men can handle the honesty that well, then they shouldn't have any problems with being rejected, and therefore there wouldn't be any need to lie to women to get in their pants. All the games and scheming would be pointless. Yet it still happens. Seems like people really can't help making things much more difficult for themselves than they have to be.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

eeo said:


> So is it still about keeping an eye out for a possible long term relationship even when such men keep telling themselves it's mostly about sex? "I'll smash until I find the one" kind of thing, even if it's subconscious?


Well yeah, that's still what most people are about nowadays, a long term relationship. For women that's ensured security for her child, for the man it's ensured sexual access and most importantly, paternity of the child. Whether women realize it or not, there is a real biological need, urge, for men, that women don't have, at least not to that extent, and that they will not understand, to have sexual release on a regular basis if possible, that is completely independent from the long-term wants of having a long-term relationship, but that is absolutely congruent with the ultimate goal to reproduce. In other words, if some people really like to talk about social constructs, one of the few ones I can see is enforcing monogamy on everyone, yes. Good or bad thing, I don't know, but it has its pros and cons.




eeo said:


> What about reputation among women...are the lies actually about keeping face so they'd have the opportunity to have that long term relationship some day? Because the thing I'm having an issue with is the two separate worlds that don't seem to match well - men who want to "smash" actually wanting a long term relationship, and holding the "smashing" against women when they've done the exact same thing. Kind of a have your cake and eat it too situation.


To the first question, I would say yes. If your boyfriend were to ask you your precise body count, you would either try to avoid the question and find a way to not respond, or lie about it and say a lower number than it actually is (and let's be real here, you know there is no way to prove if that's a lie or not, the man would just have to trust you on your word, and you have zero interest in telling the truth). Because you know deep down that it impacts your ability to keep that man. Even if we try to twist it to say "it's not about the number, it's about being called easy", and to that, sure, except most women are keenly aware that they don't want to be perceived as such even if they don't agree with it, etc. So it being about the number or about the word and social perception, doesn't really matter much, most women don't want to be in that place. I would even go as far as saying that's why the shaming of s***-shaming is a thing.

Regarding the second part I see what you mean and I understand how that could seem unfair. But. For serious relationships, men look for women who don't have a past, while women look for men who have a future. While to us a woman's sexual past and body count is important, we don't really care about your career ; you, however, will care less about his sexual past and body count, however, if he isn't stable financially, making him unable to support the whole family (however big it is), that's a problem generally. Even if after that the financial participation is actually shared and balanced. Nobody really cares about my sexual past, but women will care about me paying for the first date. There has been a thread recently regarding that and reflecting that fact. If the guy doesn't pay, women will find rationalizations about how he's not interested in her, or how he's unable ; somehow implying that's his job to prove to her that he's good enough.
And get this : suppose a man has proven himself to a woman and proposed to her, she said yes, they're engaged. Suppose she realizes down the line that he's supporting 3-4 other women financially, while being engaged with her and supporting her financially. Pays a rent here, buys a car there, is a sugar daddy over there, flies another one over the world. Would that woman he's engaged to maintain the marriage ? Probably not, right ?

Well, those are the same things, because what's wanted for serious relationships vary between men and women. We're wired differently and we want different things. Both of those things tie in to how each sex views loyalty. And regarding first dates, let's assume the man has to pay for it… what if there's no second date ? She just got a free meal, on him, and drained his resources (however little the drain was), but she won't see him again, aka won't get serious with him, and ultimately lower his value to other women. Same behavior.




eeo said:


> And then, when these men finally want that long term relationship, are they just ok with living with the lies in their past? Because, to me, that's such an unpleasant load of baggage to live with, why even bother with it in the first place. New relationship, new me?


Usually the lies are for much smaller things than their own past. But I'm sure that happens, yes, just like it happens with women.



eeo said:


> I wonder if Tinder era has made things easier for men. And women as well. That they just enjoy the liberty of not lying so much to get what they want. Or has it become automatic, because deep down they're all looking for that perfect long term relationship but wanting sex keeps winning, so the lying must continue?


It has made it easier for people who already had it very easy. So, attractive men who have consistent game, and women who know how to take pictures. That means few men and more than half of women I would say. For the average man, and the ugly woman, it's been a total disaster.

What Tinder (but dating apps in general) have done is to globalize dating. So when previously one lived deep in the countryside, and only really knew people from their small village, now, they have internet and see people from all over the world. It's made things easier for women, and created more competition for men. Because for a woman, when before she knew the guys in her local place, and those were her dating options, now she can talk to men all over the world, that means some corporate engineer from NYC, or maybe some oil prince from Dubai. And a guy from that same village she's from, now has to compete with those guys, whereas he didn't have to before.




eeo said:


> The point I was trying to make is that if men can handle the honesty that well, then they shouldn't have any problems with being rejected, and therefore there wouldn't be any need to lie to women to get in their pants. All the games and scheming would be pointless. Yet it still happens. Seems like people really can't help making things much more difficult for themselves than they have to be.


It's not so much about how one handles rejection. It's about results. How one handles rejection is how one copes with the result. The result is pretty much binary : sex, or no sex. When what you want is sex, if you handle rejection well, that is good, but if you choose to never lie because you can handle rejection, then you're not getting sex, because your potential partners don't like what you say. Not lying is fine as long as you don't care, not about being rejected, but about getting sex or not. You might still get sex in some rare occasions, but don't count on it.

The point is that as a man, you can get rejected for important, but also and particularly, insignificant reasons. Because the insignificant things are insignificant, it's not unreasonable at all to lie about the insignificant things to improve one's chances of success. Because if we were to consider every insignificant requirement as important requirements, that would make women's standards unreasonably high. That's what women push for, and why we're having this discussion in the first place : women will never say they don't want honesty. All the women in this thread, said they wanted honesty. Except men who have a minimum of experience with women, not even much, know for a fact that it should be taken with a grain of salt, if not completely ignored. Men lying to women will stop either when men will finally see pussy as non-divine and stop seeing it as scarce but plentiful instead, or when women's standards will drop by at least a notch. But none of those things are going to happen, just like men caring about women's past, or women sleeping around will not stop (so women lying about their past/body count will not stop). It's unfortunate but I don't think any of it is going to change.


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## Celtsincloset (Feb 17, 2014)

Lonewaer said:


> We do. We just don't include women in our discussions, because they systematically dismiss and discard our issues, points, experiences, this has been proven many many times on this forum. I've already linked the discussion between Destiny and Aba that's on YT, somewhere in the section, but they address this issue among others. The only spaces that men have to talk about their issues are fringe internet communities. Whereas women have their spaces in main media.
> So, we do ask each other, "uh, is this normal ? It feels like it's not normal/healthy". And when pretty much everyone in the space has a story to relate to that exact point, with the same experience with similar solutions, you stop painting a perfect picture, and you start to see what's happening at the scale of larger populations than just you and your close friends.


Thanks for your perspective on all of this, and this leaves me wondering. What kinds of issues, etc, are the ones that are being dismissed by women, when we bring them out as we’re being honest? The issues that we are more comfortable to speak about on fringe internet communities like this?


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


Means the dude must be honest when he screws up and lie when she does.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

It’s a matter of tact how well the truth goes over a person.


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## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

pwowq said:


> Yes, men can be dishonest. They can lie because they just want to fuck a person and are terrified of saying it because then they problably won't be able to fuck the person anymore.


And sometime that lie comes from the stupid questions like "does this dress look good on me", "do you like my new hair", "don't you think this wall would look great in pink" and other such nonsense. And don't get me started on women vs women interaction. The disgusting dishonesty that goes on every day with almost every interaction between two women that are supposed to be friends.

Men use banter with other men but they don't mean it.
Women use compliments with other women but they don't mean it.

So, to answer to the initial question, if a girl would ask for "honesty" I would ask her to confirm that she really wants that. And ask her sign some paper in which she says that she agrees with the most raw form of honesty. Coz I got a doozey when that first question about how she looks in some crappy dress she bought on an impulse later on or on how she looks when she eventually gains some weight or when her new hair makes her look like a stupid lamp. I don't have an issue with women, I just have an issue with the demonization of men by women. I know it's mostly done by media and some stupid specimens that weren't hugged by their dad as kids. In my culture we have a saying: "look at the shard laughing at the broken pottery". It's ironic.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

I don't think this is really a gender thing right? I'm a guy and honesty is the one thing I look for in other people. Romantic or no. 

I think I only realized it after my then-GF cheated on me (and lied about it), but it turns out to be a complete deal-breaker for me in every respect.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

Celtsincloset said:


> Thanks for your perspective on all of this, and this leaves me wondering. What kinds of issues, etc, are the ones that are being dismissed by women, when we bring them out as we’re being honest? The issues that we are more comfortable to speak about on fringe internet communities like this?


Some of those issues have been brought up here before, but here are some (in a spoiler because there are a lot) :


* *




— Homelessness is 80% male. The last time I saw something from mainstream media was an ad in the subway saying 15 to 20% of homeless people were women and that we should do something about it. I just went "uh ?". This ties in to how men and women are viewed and valued in society : women should be saved, men don't really… exist, for some weird trick of the imagination. Out of somewhere around 2k homeless centers in the US, 1 of them accepted men, the others were exclusively for women (that's a number from years ago, but still worrying).
— Paternity fraud. That's when a baby is born, and the husband/partner of the mother (who cheated) doesn't know he's not the father. That ties into the discussion of mandatory DNA paternity tests, which should absolutely be a thing in my opinion, but for some reason is a big no-go for a lot more women than reasonable.
— Reproductive rights. Following the previous point, men have 0 right regarding who is born or not. If a woman wants a child, it doesn't matter what the father want, he's gonna be forced to pay for that child, and if a woman doesn't want a child, it doesn't matter what the father wants, she can abort the child, and the father has no say in it. Feminists argue "my body my choice" ; the whole point then becomes : my wallet my choice. Even when the father can legally get away with not paying for the child, which he generally can't, then the state can provide financial resources for the mother, but in the reverse situation, can't provide the father with his own child (that has been aborted, remember). This can be very scarring either way.
— Domestic abuse. We hear a lot about abuse against women, completely forgetting the fact that women abuse their partners a lot, if not more, than men. It's been shown that the population in which domestic abuse is the most prevalent is in lesbian couples.
— Female privilege. Following the last point, it's apparently completely acceptable for women to be abusive towards men, because it's harder for them to physically hurt them ? The experiments of couples having fights in public are pretty revealing regarding that (can be found on YT pretty easily). If the woman is hitting her partner, nobody moves, if he responds in kind, everyone jumps to protect her ; if instead he is angry and simply raises his voice, people will come up and ask him to calm down.
— Family courts are biased against men. There is a financial imbalance here, but that's not the most important. The most important is that most men who walk out of family courts don't get to see their child(ren) as much as they would like to. They don't really get to be fathers, which is generally a problem for them, but again most importantly for the child(ren).
— Education. Well, boys fall behind, in terms of education. They drop out more than girls and do worse, while girls go further and do better, they go more in stem. Yet that trend is not observed in the workplace. Makes me personally wonder why women do so good in school, but then complain that there are too much men in those fields.
— Suicide rates. While women attempt to kill themselves more, men actually kill themselves more. Ties in to mental health related discussions, in which men are generally told to handle that like women do, without anyone knowing if that's gonna help.
— Deaths at the workplace. Happens mostly to men. Men die working. Ties in to how dangerous jobs are 90+% men, and to how feminists never (ever) fight for that kind of quota in the workplace.
— Rape. It's such a big feminist talking point that everyone forgets that it happens to men, and that it's just as much of a problem. I just nearly forgot about it. If we tend to think that victims of rape are generally ignored/not believed/not taken seriously, that's talking about women who are victims. But it's worse when men are victims. There are many sub-issues included in that one point, one of which is that when men are talking about rape, unless they completely support the feminist narrative, they're basically being rape apologists/victim blaming, which is generally untrue. Happened to me during the past week on another thread in this section. There is also the issue of false allegations.
— Conscious destruction of masculinity that's done by the whole of society and that is led by some women. Anything masculine is shamed into oblivion nowadays. When you hear someone say "toxic masculinity", that's what they're doing ; when you hear someone call someone else an "incel", that's what they're doing, when you hear someone say "who hurt you ?", that's what they're doing. Generally that happens when a man stands up to the mainstream talking points that pander to women in all situations.
— Genital mutilation. Again, we hear a lot about female genital mutilation, it's scandalous, it shouldn't happen, etc… but nobody bats an eye at circumcision. Things as simple as a woman saying "I don't like dicks that are uncut" is problematic. She doesn't mean much by that, but that still encourages the practice.
— Prison sentencing. For the same crime, men are sentenced to 60% more time than women are. This could be due to a number of factors, but it could be the result of biology too, since there are both more men who are extremely intelligent and more men who are extremely stupid than there are women in those extremes. The guys in prison would be the "more extremely stupid" part of the population.
— Lifespan. Men live shorter lives than women. Maybe it's caused by the rest of those issues (specifically suicides, workplace death, and job choice, as they are directly influencing it), maybe not and it's just supposed to be, who knows, hard to say.
— Shaming. See post just below to see a stack of it.




I'm sure I'm forgetting some of them.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think most issues brought up by angry men's rights enthusiasts are actually difficult for women to accept or talk about--most of them were probably brought up by feminism.

I know that I learned about most of men's issues in dreaded classes like Sociology (you know...with the evil overlord feminist teacher who brainwashed every female into getting tattoos and blue hair in between telling us the actual sociological issues that men and women face...er my gerd...I think she even mentioned the word "gender.") 

But on these fringe communities, people can go around and decide that the group to blame is women, and bash women a bunch. And honestly, most women don't want to hear some troglodyte blaming them for all his problems and his gross pedo friends' problems and basically every world problem.

Certainly no one's forced not to be honest about being a sexist and hating women. Most women would prefer to know if the guy they are thinking about dating is some manosphere ideologue who blames women for all the worlds problems, because it is a waste of time to try to date someone who thinks you are subhuman or the scourge of the earth. 

Which is why a manosphere man would likely lie about it, because most women wouldn't want to date such a hateful, whiny person unless he pretended to be normal offline.

You could call it "having" to lie, but really--it's just someone being cowardly and not wanting to accept the consequences of sharing their hateful views to the object of their hate, that they think they are entitled to get sex from.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I think men and women both have it harder for different reasons. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Yet all too often the narrative from people is always only about how women have it harder, or only how men have it harder.


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## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

Lonewaer said:


> Some of those issues have been brought up here before, but here are some (in a spoiler because there are a lot) :
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


Absolutely BTFO'd the feminist argument. Excellently summed up and I mentioned those things in the past myself on several occasions, even if not in a single post.



Lonewaer said:


> — Education. Well, boys fall behind, in terms of education. They drop out more than girls and do worse, while girls go further and do better, they go more in stem. Yet that trend is not observed in the workplace. Makes me personally wonder why women do so good in school, but then complain that there are too much men in those fields.


This point is due to the fact that the education system treats boys as defective girls that won't just sit and listen quietly for hours. Men don't learn through listening to hours of theory. They learn through doing and experimenting. Yet the school systems just expect you to sit there and listen to theories that mean nothing to you if you can't visualize them.

Women like to read these, what are essentially literature porn like 50 shades of grey and all that bullshit, but men want to see some tits, ass, and touch. What is this descriptive bullshit we have to sit through school? Men are creatures of fact. Don't describe me your tits and expect to understand how they would feel. Women understand this too, but they only preferentially apply it. See, describe a woman how those new shoes would feel on her and she's not happy, all of the sudden she needs to touch and wear them. Ain't that some shit.

This is also one reason why I don't think changing your gender is possible. There are built in things that we cannot explain that cannot be changed with surgery or pills. There is something almost spiritual that makes a man what a man is and a woman what a woman is and that can't be surgically removed or added, taught or unlearned. Again, my primitive eastern european brain is more in touch with what things are than the more scrambled nonsensical unreasonable and senseless self destructing western culture. Diogenes proved a point when he was arguing with Plato who was saying that a man is a "featherless biped". Diogenes then plucked a chicken and gave it to Plato and said "Behold, a man". Men and women are different and not interchangeable in their whole.


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## HypernovaGirl (May 9, 2016)

Well, when I am being honest, firstly I am not purposefully trying to deceive another. After that first level there are other more complex levels of honesty.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

FreeKekistan said:


> Absolutely BTFO'd the feminist argument. Excellently summed up and I mentioned those things in the past myself on several occasions, even if not in a single post.
> 
> 
> This point is due to the fact that the education system treats boys as defective girls that won't just sit and listen quietly for hours. Men don't learn through listening to hours of theory. They learn through doing and experimenting. Yet the school systems just expect you to sit there and listen to theories that mean nothing to you if you can't visualize them.
> ...


I guess I am a man afterall, by this description. I cannot sit still in a chair, and am very hands-on with learning....


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## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

High five, dude, let's go bang some bitches and connect some speakers later on after work!


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

FreeKekistan said:


> High five, dude, let's go bang some bitches and connect some speakers later on after work!


Oh fuck it, why not? 🤣

(You literally just described stuff people with ADHD can't really do though....I've been fired for not being able to stay in a specific area, I have meds to be less impulsive, I did really well in school, but didn't listen, and didn't really open text books so idk how I passed tests, and absolutely couldn't sit still, I love strategy board games, but having someone explain how to play never works. I have to play a game to figure it out, I've picked up eccentric hobbies because they were hands on. I got into a college program for installing speakers and electrical equipment into airplains because it's more kinetic and that's fun/easy etc) so if that's what it takes to "be a man"....


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## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

You can bang random bitches and connect random speakers. Or you can randomly bang or connect bitches or speakers.


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

Celtsincloset said:


> Are men usually dishonest? I have no idea. Lol


It's difficult to build a stable reliable relationship base off lies and false pretense, especially if you're potentially going to carry their child for 9 months.


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## MsMojiMoe (Apr 7, 2021)

Now, I always thought honesty was for ppl with low standards…but mostly bc they think a honest man is a good man (not true) and if they are a good man than they will treat them with respect

ive talked about this when I first joined but I couldn’t find it. Talking about values of FI, in that thread they thought all Fi users were selfish…I wanted to copy and paste my answer here, but it goes too far back, I can’t find it.

so I ll re say it….

I always thought it is better to looked for integrity than honesty

honesty just means not to lie and ppl will use honesty to get out of responsibility
this is why I said, ladies and men too), take honesty out and put in integrity

integrity will always hold you accountable

example
if I guy tells his gf that if she gets pregnant, he is out of there bc he isn’t ready to be a father.

she gets pregnant and he leaves….hey that’s honesty, he did what he said…what a good man, he is bc he told the truth ( being heavily sarcastic)
but not an ounce of integrity ….so no he is not a good man but honest

see honesty will let someone get out of responsibility and weak ones with no integrity will always use this tactic.
But see integrity will not let him off the hook just bc he say he was going to leave….no, integrity will still say you made that child you owe that child, you still have responsibility to her, the child, society and yourself…doesn’t care what truth you were spitting

honesty will let someone go up to someone and tell them their ugly or fat and then say _I’m only telling the truth_…that line in particular is always a red flag for someone with no integrity….again using honesty to be mean, hurtful….not a good person…so you can still be a honest person and not be good Or respectful.


how to tell the difference

integrity will always benefit the other person, it’s always you who bares the risks…if not it’s not integrity so beware how ppl use that word.

like if a woman cheated on her husband in her thirties , she would show integrity by coming clean before she was caught, risk losing her family, home, reputation etc and it’s the right thing to do….but what isn’t integrity is never coming clean or only when caught bc of fear of them leaving you or waited until you are on your death bed…then your only concern is with clearing your own conscience and the other person doesn’t benefits anything from it…it’s cruel ….they would only benefit when you gave them the truth from the beginning so they can make choices for their life then, not 40, 50, years later when y’all are dying.

honesty is too weak for me even in friendship, im all about integrity and if someone truly does have integrity than it’s a pretty good sign that they are a good person or at the very least trying to be their best, knowing their decisions has consequences on everything not just them.


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## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

MsMojiMoe said:


> [...]
> honesty just means not to lie and ppl will use honesty to get out of responsibility
> this is why I said, ladies and men too), take honesty out and put in integrity
> 
> ...


That's a great point. Point goes to House Fi.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

MsMojiMoe said:


> honesty is too weak for me even in friendship, im all about integrity and if someone truly does have integrity than it’s a pretty good sign that they are a good person or at the very least trying to be their best, knowing their decisions has consequences on everything not just them.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)




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## lat288 (Sep 21, 2021)

It means she has been played in the past.
And she aint looking for no more fuckboi.
She will only accept you once she knows for sure you actually love her and are in for a serious relationship.


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