# Anti-Vaccine Mom's



## MissAverage (Aug 7, 2014)

The intention of this thread is not to debate about the safety of vaccines, but I wanted to open up a discussion about the growing distrust of consumers of everything from Healthcare to the food we buy at the market. I want to know other NT's perspective. It seems like the organic trend has slowly become mainstream. It seems that consumers are more and more "educated" these days because of the Internet and social media and this is creating a new generation of "aware" consumers. 

Do you think people are being too conscientious these days about the things they consume and do you think it is a good thing?


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## MissAverage (Aug 7, 2014)

I noticed over the last 2 years a lot of marketing of food products and even cosmetic products have repackaged their goods with a disclaimer reading "This product contains absolutely no ________". It's always some ingredient that most people have no clue what it is or if it is actually harmful but it plants the little seed in the mind of the consumer and influences which brand they choose. I have no problem with marketing but I don't like it when it rides on the coattails of the gluten-free/vegan/organic/antivaccine/homeopathic/essential oil/home birth trend. I threw in home birth just to be ridiculous, but I hope you get what I mean.


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## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)

While I believe people should have a choice, I still feel conflicted about their decisions to not vaccinate their kids because at the same time, I am very concerned about the resurgence of nasty illnesses that could have been prevented. I don't know where that argument of vaccines causing autism came up from, but even if I did buy into that idea, I'd rather have my child be diagnosed with something treatable and not life-threatening than be afflicted with something dangerous and contagious.


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## MissAverage (Aug 7, 2014)

peter pettishrooms said:


> While I believe people should have a choice, I still feel conflicted about their decisions to not vaccinate their kids because at the same time, I am very concerned about the resurgence of nasty illnesses that could have been prevented. I don't know where that argument of vaccines causing autism came up from, but even if I did buy into that idea, I'd rather have my child be diagnosed with something treatable and not life-threatening than be afflicted with something dangerous and contagious.


I won't go into to much because the purpose of this thread isn't to debate on safety of vaccines, but as you mentioned, it's alarming that people would decide against vaccinating their child when there are no scientific studies showing them to be unsafe or related to autism. 

It seems like people in America are becoming more and more influenced by propoganda/pseudoscience/alt lifestyle marketing than ever before.


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## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)

MissAverage said:


> I won't go into to much because the purpose of this thread isn't to debate on safety of vaccines, but as you mentioned, it's alarming that people would decide against vaccinating their child when there are no scientific studies showing them to be unsafe or related to autism.
> 
> It seems like people in America are becoming more and more influenced by propoganda/pseudoscience/alt lifestyle marketing than ever before.


Eh, I'm not to worried about alternative lifestyles being popular since they're just dumb fads that are likely to die down within the next couple of years. There are so many gullible people around me, I could start a business selling bs weight loss products and get rich after two years.


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## MissAverage (Aug 7, 2014)

@peter pettishrooms Better yet, start selling Mason jars full of coconut oil and tell people they can detox their blood by"oil pulling". Did you know people really think that they can rid their blood of toxins (something only the liver can do) by swishing with coconut oil?


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

MissAverage said:


> Do you think people are being too conscientious these days about the things they consume and do you think it is a good thing?


I don't think there's such a thing as too conscientious. There can be misinformed neurotic obsessive hypocrisy in the cloak of conscientiousness though, which is bad because it's spreading false information. I mean if someone makes a big fake-conscientious deal of something that is just marketed a certain way, and despises something that is the same thing or even better choice but not marketed exactly right. As long as it's just consumer goods, I don't mind too much if the latter brand disappears and the company goes bankrupt because they can't keep up with the times. I do mind the fake-conscientious person feeling superior because of their excellent choice and taste and not realizing it's only because of the marketing done right and not because their product is actually better. If they were just honest and despised the other brand and their customers because the other brand is cheap, old-fashioned or of inferior quality, I'd have no problem.

If it wasn't the conscientiousness trend it would be something else. In that sense I suppose some good is done in the world somewhere. I'm not conscientious. I'm not even conscientious about being non-conscientious, a lot of times I do feel and let myself feel like I'm a better person for buying something because it's branded to make me feel like a better person for choosing that product.


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## MissAverage (Aug 7, 2014)

Jamaia said:


> I don't think there's such a thing as too conscientious. There can be misinformed neurotic obsessive hypocrisy in the cloak of conscientiousness though, which is bad because it's spreading false information. I mean if someone makes a big fake-conscientious deal of something that is just marketed a certain way, and despises something that is the same thing or even better choice but not marketed exactly right. As long as it's just consumer goods, I don't mind too much if the latter brand disappears and the company goes bankrupt because they can't keep up with the times. I do mind the fake-conscientious person feeling superior because of their excellent choice and taste and not realizing it's only because of the marketing done right and not because their product is actually better. If they were just honest and despised the other brand and their customers because the other brand is cheap, old-fashioned or of inferior quality, I'd have no problem.
> 
> If it wasn't the conscientiousness trend it would be something else. In that sense I suppose some good is done in the world somewhere. I'm not conscientious. I'm not even conscientious about being non-conscientious, a lot of times I do feel and let myself feel like I'm a better person for buying something because it's branded to make me feel like a better person for choosing that product.


You were able to articulate exactly what I was thinking but didn't have the words to say.


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

MissAverage said:


> The intention of this thread is not to debate about the safety of vaccines, but I wanted to open up a discussion about the growing distrust of consumers of everything from Healthcare to the food we buy at the market. I want to know other NT's perspective. It seems like the organic trend has slowly become mainstream. It seems that consumers are more and more "educated" these days because of the Internet and social media and this is creating a new generation of "aware" consumers.
> 
> *Do you think people are being too conscientious these days* about the things they consume and do you think it is a good thing?


Yes. That health-crazed crowd has no life. Like, just go and eat pizza. I'm pretty sure it's just a fad though.


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

peter pettishrooms said:


> I am very concerned about the resurgence of nasty illnesses that could have been prevented.



Does that mean the vaccines used on the majority of people are ineffective? :tongue:

I'm often amused by the "your kids might make our kids sick!" argument because it shows the parents aren't very confident in vaccine efficacy themselves.

Regardless, titer tests show that commonly, vaccines continue to be effective for far longer than the prescribed booster intervals.
This is troubling because boosters use resources from your immune system, weakening one to _other_ illnesses while the body is working with the unnecessary booster shot.

I fall in the category of "some, but less is more" after researching the way vaccines work. 
As a child, I received minimalist immunizations... partly because my mother just wasn't worried at all. 
I never get the flu, or colds, even while everyone around me comes down with that stuff. I've never had a flu shot.
My own experience really isn't much to go on, but for me it makes some sense that there is some correlation there (you may draw your own conclusions of course).




> I don't know where that argument of vaccines causing autism came up from, but even if I did buy into that idea, I'd rather have my child be diagnosed with something treatable and not life-threatening than be afflicted with something dangerous and contagious.



There were some articles that came out on that matter. There was a doctor who was originally responsible for the rumor. They've found it not to be the case statistically.

However, while a good portion of the populace is venturing into paranoia about vaccines, another good chunk of them are paranoid in the opposite direction.
The black plague is not going to reemerge due to a possible future where 25% of parents don't vaccinate their kids against chicken pox. If your kids are vaccinated, they should be safe, right? 

Autism is very serious, btw, and not necessarily "treatable" depending, but nevermind that since it isn't related anyway.


With horses and other animals, they have not yet replaced the adjuvant in some vaccines with the more modern safer version. Some of the animal vaccines still contain thimerosal, which is a very diluted form of mercury.
The adjuvant in vaccines is what helps prompt the immune system to react and muster forces to fight. It is an intentional biological stressor. 

Mercury, as should be obvious to anyone, is not a healthful substance for humans or animals.
Yet the vaccine companies will continue to reiterate that thimerosal is used as a "preservative" (because that's how it was cleared by the FDA) even while it's patently obvious the presence of thimerosal is as an adjuvant (there is no other substance in the ingredient list that would perform this necessary function, and there are plenty of safer preservatives to use!).

This is just one example of why people shouldn't constrain their health education to the pamphlet put out by the companies making money off of them. 

While at the same time, I agree there are plenty of questionable sources on the internet. 

A nice happy middle of the road approach seems like the most sensible thing.


Op, yada yada about not being a vaccination debate aside (even though you mentioned the topic twice yourself  )

I really think companies should be forced to put all the crap they don't want to admit to on their labels. 
I don't put much stock in what they volunteer ("now with 25% less sugar!"... read, "now with 30% more corn syrup!")

Big business makes quite a lot on taking consumers for a ride... 
and I for one would much rather have the choice between the less harmful synthetic substances and the more harmful ones.

It's painful for their bottom line, but I do not care one itty bitty iota :happy:


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## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)

Rebecca.M said:


> Does that mean the vaccines used on the majority of people are ineffective? :tongue:
> 
> I'm often amused by the "your kids might make our kids sick!" argument because it shows the parents aren't very confident in vaccine efficacy themselves.
> 
> ...


Yes, while I'm for the most part for vaccines and try to stay vaccinated every few years, I'm still open to skepticism especially when it comes to very new vaccines. Back when H1N1 was making headlines and they had just released a vaccine for it, I was pretty reluctant to getting it myself much to the dismay of my father. Reason being that it hadn't been out long enough yet to know what the results of it were going to be. I felt like I was taking somewhat of a gamble by letting it into my system.

It's also important to remember that bacteria and viruses are constantly mutating themselves within a short span of time compared to more complex organisms, so the vaccines you received years ago might not be as effective as they used to be unless you receive a more recent vaccine meant to prevent that same illness. And I'll admit, sometimes I forget to receive the same type of vaccine every few years like I should.


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

peter pettishrooms said:


> It's also important to remember that bacteria and viruses are constantly mutating themselves within a short span of time compared to more complex organisms, so the vaccines you received years ago might not be as effective as they used to be unless you receive a more recent vaccine meant to prevent that same illness. And I'll admit, sometimes I forget to receive the same type of vaccine every few years like I should.



I haven't had a vaccination since... I was 13 or so? :tongue: 

(I'm now 28)

Even when I was a flight attendant, I didn't get sick, while many of the other ladies were.


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

@Rebecca.M The issue of "vaccinate your kids so they're safe" isn't that simple. Babies and children with chronic illnesses aren't vaccinated, some people can't develop immunity, so they're counting on the people around them not to spread the pathogens. Herd immunity will also eventually eliminate the disease as it can't spread to new people. I don't think the fact that vaccines aren't "perfect" undermines vaccinations in any way, they're not perfect but they're the best chance we got. I agree that they should be strictly regulated, studied, constantly improved etc etc.

All my kids are vaccinated in accordance with the national (Finnish) vaccination policy, so as far as I'm understanding it correctly they've had DTap/IPV/Hib, PVC and MPR shots and also Rota virus vaccines. They haven't had "the extras", such as tuberculosis, flu, chickenpox vaccines.


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## Winterleaf (Jun 13, 2016)

As a food science student, I think it's a good thing that people are being conscientious about what they put in their body. I mean, 50 years ago, people are eating wonder bread, smoking cigarette, drink soda that are advertise as "healthy." Even if all this organic, gluten free, non GMO stuff does not really provide any health benefit, at least they won't give you cancer or diabetes. 

I do think people should be hold accountable when it comes to false information or advertisement. There are always going to be stupid people out there who believe anything. That anti-vaccine mom is definitely going to or already did some other stupid thing on her kid. There is no cure to stupidity,not education, not information, not technology. The government just need to make sure that the media is not intentionally spreading false information. If they did not bother to verify the information, then it's intentional.


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## SilverKelpie (Mar 9, 2015)

Rebecca.M said:


> I haven't had a vaccination since... I was 13 or so? :tongue:
> 
> (I'm now 28)
> 
> Even when I was a flight attendant, I didn't get sick, while many of the other ladies were.


Your icon seems to indicate that you are a horse person. I strongly recommend keeping up with your tetanus vaccine if so, and you would be out for it at 28 if you haven't had a vaccine since you were 13. Tetanus is no joke. Get your horse vaccinated for it while you are at it. Tetanus generally kills horses that get it, and it is a slow, extraordinarily painful death due to how it makes muscles spasm.

As far as being "amused" by people being concerned if a large enough percentage of the population remains unvaccinated and destroys herd immunity, that is a valid concern. One, some people are too young or have health that is too fragile to get vaccinated. Their very life can rely on all the healthy individuals in a community getting vaccinated. Plus, vaccines are not 100% effective. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be used (unless you want us still to be suffering the ravages of diseases like polio and smallpox), but it does mean that even some vaccinated people will get sick when exposed, which means herd immunity, again, is important.

As for the subject, misinformation and paranoia spread about vaccines, or baseless beliefs on natural remedies, certainly damages lives. However, I think skepticism about ingredients in food and materials we use can have value. After all, we have examples to look at such as when the population was being poisoned by lead in paint and gasoline. Plus, on the level of personal experience, some chemical used in the creation of modified starches, which are now used in a lot of food and even some sodas as a thickener, cause my mother to bleed internally. It may not do anything that dramatic to most people, but it does tend to make me wonder if it does anything more subtle to me. That does make me a bit hesitant and I like to gravitate to foods that have simple and easily identifiable sets of ingredients.


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## Ultr4 (Feb 11, 2015)

MissAverage said:


> The intention of this thread is not to debate about the safety of vaccines, but I wanted to open up a discussion about the growing distrust of consumers of everything from Healthcare to the food we buy at the market. I want to know other NT's perspective. It seems like the organic trend has slowly become mainstream.* It seems that consumers are more and more "educated" these days because of the Internet and social media* and this is creating a new generation of "aware" consumers.
> 
> Do you think people are being too conscientious these days about the things they consume and do you think it is a good thing?


I totally disagree with that. People are more and more reading shit without the capacity to step back and understand the 'why' behind the info they get. Information is less and less verified as the nobody is now paid to do that job.
In a way, yes people are more informed, BUT, the info is going to become worse.


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

I'm somewhere in between pro and anti regarding the vaccines. I think that vaccines actually worked in the past, but putting all pieces together, seeing how the world is developing, it just makes me skeptical about vaccines.
If we look around us, food is being "poisoned" with all sorts of chemicals designed to make our life shorter...do our governments seem concerned about it...no, not really. Big companies that do not care about our well-being, just check the hydraulic fracturing issue....did any of the oil companies care? how about the pipe producers? No.
There is massive increase in pollution and very little help to sustain agriculture.
Anyway, all of these put together make me skeptical about vaccines. It seems noone is interested in keeping people alive very long, just as long as they can work and produce. Then there are the ones who think we are too many for this planet...
I think the principle of the vaccines is good, but I am quite reluctant about their producers...autism or not, what is there to guarantee vaccines won't cause illness 20-30 years later when noone can link the vaccine to the illness any longer? It just seems to irealistic that everything around us causes cancer and who knows what other types of diseases, but vaccines don't cause anything....


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## stormgirl (May 21, 2013)

People are morons who believe what they want to believe.

Due to idiots not vaccinating their children, we now see diseases which were nearly eradicated are starting to make a comeback.

Children will once again start dying from preventable diseases due to this hysteria, then parents will cry and wonder how/why that happened.

Parents in third world countries will line up all day for a chance to get their children immunized, because they SEE these diseases, and SEE children die from them all the time!

Only in the Western world are people so stupid, that they are willing to play Russian roulette with their child’s life because a former playboy bunny told them to!

It’s remarkable to me that in an era of such knowledge, so many people opt against FACTS, and instead choose to believe conspiracy theories.

Adults are free to believe whatever crackpot theory they like, but when they start making decisions that affect infants and children who are unable to make that decision for themselves, I become irate.


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## lookslikeiwin (May 6, 2014)

Most people take it too far, but I do think there is a concern when you look at the evidence. In America, poor people are way more likely to be the fat ones. And it's next to impossible to eat out and eat healthy because there's so much sugar in everything. At least for me. I've got three or four friends that I've known since childhood who have thyroid disorders, and even my own grandmother. They're all supposed to be on very restrictive diets or they get sick. According to one (who might be a nut), doctors sign something so as not to diagnose thyroid disorders until they get to a really bad point because of something to do with big pharma. She went to a doctor who hadn't signed any such thing and tried to convince me to go because I've got symptoms and my pediatrician once told me my thyroid was enlarged.

I don't know about all of that, but I do know that I can't eat white bread if I want to poop. And if I want to not be fat and bloated, I have to quit all or most grains. I've never tested gluten, but that shouldn't be a problem unless I really do have a thyroid disorder.

I only choose "organic" things if it means that they don't have corn syrup solids or other unwanted ingredients in them. I try to go for more whole foods, and avoid excess sugar.

I think the vaccine thing is kind of stupid though. Vaccines make sense to me.


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## Warp11 (Jul 13, 2016)

I agree with a lot here. My kids are both vaccinated and it is a requirement for school (I would do it anyway, regardless of law).

If you really want to bang your head on the ignorance table, just go to any mommy forum and create a thread titled "should i get my kids vaccinated or not?" I love reading comments along the lines of "it's a personal choice that I don't vaccinate my kids because, you know, I did like 20 mins of research on the internet and it's not my thing to give my kids autism. " No other explanation or rationale provided. 
I am not one to go with the majority "just because" however this one I will not chance. Vaccines do not have 100% immunity in all recipients but the stats are good enough for me to "err" on the side of caution. 

There was an outbreak of pertussis (whooping cough) recently in another province and only 10% of the victims had received the vax. The rest had not. 
Whooping cough outbreak in Manitoba blamed on parents not immunizing - Manitoba - CBC News

I would wager that there was a mad dash to the doctor's office for many parents who didn't "believe" in vaccination, but were like "oh shit, maybe those people with PhDs in immunology are actually right about something."

Many people probably do not realize that infants cannot be immunized before 2 months and there are potentially fatal diseases that they can contract.
Imagine your unvaxxed 4 yo child contracts pertussis and infects your 6 week old who is not even old enough to get the shot. Now you have one that is severely ill and the other could die as a result of your choice to not vaccinate in the first place. What a crappy situation to be in because it was a "personal decision." I would rather avoid altogether if the (not-so perfect) science is available. 

In more developed parts of the world, we do not see things like this:

https://ca.images.search.yahoo.com/.../uploads/2011/09/Small-Pox-3.jpg&action=click




Jamaia said:


> @Rebecca.M The issue of "vaccinate your kids so they're safe" isn't that simple. Babies and children with chronic illnesses aren't vaccinated, some people can't develop immunity, so they're counting on the people around them not to spread the pathogens. Herd immunity will also eventually eliminate the disease as it can't spread to new people. I don't think the fact that vaccines aren't "perfect" undermines vaccinations in any way, they're not perfect but they're the best chance we got. I agree that they should be strictly regulated, studied, constantly improved etc etc.
> 
> All my kids are vaccinated in accordance with the national (Finnish) vaccination policy, so as far as I'm understanding it correctly they've had DTap/IPV/Hib, PVC and MPR shots and also Rota virus vaccines. They haven't had "the extras", such as tuberculosis, flu, chickenpox vaccines.


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

lookslikeiwin said:


> Most people take it too far, but I do think there is a concern when you look at the evidence. In America, poor people are way more likely to be the fat ones. And it's next to impossible to eat out and eat healthy because there's so much sugar in everything. At least for me. I've got three or four friends that I've known since childhood who have thyroid disorders, and even my own grandmother. They're all supposed to be on very restrictive diets or they get sick. According to one (who might be a nut), doctors sign something so as not to diagnose thyroid disorders until they get to a really bad point because of something to do with big pharma. She went to a doctor who hadn't signed any such thing and tried to convince me to go because I've got symptoms and my pediatrician once told me my thyroid was enlarged.
> 
> I don't know about all of that, but I do know that I can't eat white bread if I want to poop. And if I want to not be fat and bloated, I have to quit all or most grains. I've never tested gluten, but that shouldn't be a problem unless I really do have a thyroid disorder.
> 
> ...


Yeah, food makes sense too, but look what's in it. I am just skeptical that's it. I vaccinated my child all the time praying there would be no side effects....


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

lookslikeiwin said:


> Most people take it too far, but I do think there is a concern when you look at the evidence. In America, poor people are way more likely to be the fat ones. And it's next to impossible to eat out and eat healthy because there's so much sugar in everything. At least for me. I've got three or four friends that I've known since childhood who have thyroid disorders, and even my own grandmother. They're all supposed to be on very restrictive diets or they get sick. According to one (who might be a nut), doctors sign something so as not to diagnose thyroid disorders until they get to a really bad point because of something to do with big pharma. She went to a doctor who hadn't signed any such thing and tried to convince me to go because I've got symptoms and my pediatrician once told me my thyroid was enlarged.
> 
> I don't know about all of that, but I do know that I can't eat white bread if I want to poop. And if I want to not be fat and bloated, I have to quit all or most grains. I've never tested gluten, but that shouldn't be a problem unless I really do have a thyroid disorder.
> 
> ...


yeah, that's the thing. Food makes a lot of sense too, but look what's in it. I don't know...I'm just skeptical about vaccines as well, that's all. It feels like I have to choose between maybe life-long disease or weak immunity and dangerous diseases that may be deadly (not are deadly though).
Putting all pieces together and seeing where things are going generally, it's hard for me to just trust all foods are safe, all drinks are ok, all drugs are good, all vaccines are safe....


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

AndieO said:


> yeah, that's the thing. Food makes a lot of sense too, but look what's in it. I don't know...I'm just skeptical about vaccines as well, that's all. It feels like I have to choose between maybe life-long disease or weak immunity and dangerous diseases that may be deadly (not are deadly though).
> Putting all pieces together and seeing where things are going generally, it's hard for me to just trust all foods are safe, all drinks are ok, all drugs are good, all vaccines are safe....


Of course they're not all safe. Why would you even think all foods, drinks, drugs are good? They may not kill you immediately, but there's no way to exhaustively research long term effects when the reality is impossibly multi-variable. Just because sugar is awful for you doesn't mean that people shouldn't eat it. It tastes good. We know it's relatively safe to drink clean fresh water in moderation but you will die in the end anyway.

Some vaccines have serious side-effects and they are pulled off the market. The dangerous diseases too can leave you with life-long effects and lowered immunity. 

It's not a choice between perfect world and risks. It's a choice between risks and risks.


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## ninjainpyjamas0 (Dec 6, 2016)

I would generally consider consumer choice and public awareness to be a good thing. I think people shouldn't just automatically do what everybody else is doing, they should thing for themselves. The problem is that many people don't know how to think. When they separate from the crowd and think for themselves they make stupid choices.


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

Jamaia said:


> Of course they're not all safe. Why would you even think all foods, drinks, drugs are good? They may not kill you immediately, but there's no way to exhaustively research long term effects when the reality is impossibly multi-variable. Just because sugar is awful for you doesn't mean that people shouldn't eat it. It tastes good. We know it's relatively safe to drink clean fresh water in moderation but you will die in the end anyway.
> 
> Some vaccines have serious side-effects and they are pulled off the market. The dangerous diseases too can leave you with life-long effects and lowered immunity.
> 
> It's not a choice between perfect world and risks. It's a choice between risks and risks.


Yes we all die in the end anyway, but it makes a big difference if you die at 30 or 40 or you die at 90. so that's the thing, even foods that used to be safe are now not so safe anymore...carrots are grown with all sorts of chemicals for example, eating organic or bio is not an option for poor people. The fact that refined sugar is not safe actually does mean we shouldn't eat it unless absolutely necessary. We can get 'safer' sugar from fruits, honey etc if we eat them in moderate quantities.
All in all, I agree with the principle of vaccination, the principle is good, I am just skeptical about all the substances in the vaccine besides the dead or weakened virus.


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## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

The people not vaccinating their kids are the same idiots that are constantly slathering anti-bacterial lotion over everything. Fucking laughable. Don't prevent the disease in the first place and then lower your outer defenses against them as well. As has been stated, vaccines aren't sure fire and can have devastating side effects, though exceedingly rare. When I gamble I never play the hard eight for a reason. Risk vs. reward and mitigating loses, right? I am ambivalent in regards to whether the elderly should get vaccinated against influenza. Its efficacy is pretty much a coin flip. Not my money so....

Let the hypochondriacs and people stupid enough to take medical advice from the panel of The View worry themselves to death. 



AndieO said:


> Yes we all die in the end anyway, but it makes a big difference if you die at 30 or 40 or you die at 90. so that's the thing, even foods that used to be safe are now not so safe anymore...carrots are grown with all sorts of chemicals for example, eating organic or bio is not an option for poor people. The fact that refined sugar is not safe actually does mean we shouldn't eat it unless absolutely necessary. We can get 'safer' sugar from fruits, honey etc if we eat them in moderate quantities.
> All in all, I agree with the principle of vaccination, the principle is good, I am just skeptical about all the substances in the vaccine besides the dead or weakened virus.


Ketogenic diets people--granted not everyone has the means and don't even start on the ethics and treatment of livestock that is another argument. For me food is survival, not entertainment. I'll get that in other ways. Anyways, I agree that consumers should have the rights to information concerning their food, medicine, and the like. The labeling laws in the States are also a problem. For instance, if you try to get bacon without nitrates there are a slew of overpriced products that claim to be nitrate free. Yet look at these "nitrate free" products' ingredient list and you will see celery seed which is high in nitrates. You also are at the manufacturer's mercy if they want to detail the ingredients. The organic trend seems nice on the surface. Still don't know what goes into the soil though. And with the constant increase in pollution just how organic is organic--possibly a minuscule worry but where does it all start and stop? I'll stop because we are all marks in a giant fucking game of three card monte.:lemmings_by_mirz123


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

@AndieO and @Ald52OnMyTonguePlease I think that high quality food has rarely been easy to come by for people. People have always had to work hard to get food, it's not that different these days. If it's true that poor people struggle to afford good quality food (and I don't think that's entirely true, I think it's more complicated), I think it is because before all this cheap crap there just wouldn't have been enough food for us all, food of any kind. Intensive farming has kept more people alive without everyone having to farm, and corn syrup means sweets for everyone. People like it that way. In the past sugary foods were a luxury that not everyone could afford, I find it a bit odd to say that we shouldn't be eating it. Or maybe we shouldn't be eating it for our own sake, sure, but controlling people from producing sweet foods when they sell so well is another issue. It seems like all the refined sugar and syrup is filling a need, taking the sugar away doesn't make the need go away.

About labeling, while I think claims should be controlled and misleading should be prohibited and ingredients should be listed in detail, I'd still imagine something like "no artificial preservatives" or "all natural ingredients" would qualify even if "nitrate-free bacon" didn't, and the impact on the consumer who can afford the more expensive product and who is health-conscious enough to care about nitrates would be basically the same. Most people don't care, they just like bacon. And as far as I know truly nitrate free bacon is just salted meat, so most wouldn't actually be happy with "nitrate-free bacon". I think the information about healthy foods exists, it's just that people would like food to be both healthy and to taste the same as the unhealthy junk, be as cheap and as easy to prepare... 

I think we can and have changed the culture to favor conventional foods and slow cooking and all that. But at the same time there will always be people who don't want to or can't do that, and they will spend their money on something else. I think worrying about if it's safe to eat a carrot is taking it way too far. Vegetables prepared correctly are the absolute best option for like 100.0% of people, we should be ecstatic if we can just walk to a supermarket and get them fresh daily. You have to eat something to stay alive. If you are at a level where you are worried to eat a carrot because you don't know what is in the soil, well you could just grow your own food if that helps, or you could just accept that you can't control everything, life is not safe. You eat what you can like every other being. That doesn't mean there's nothing that should be changed to ensure food is produced in the most sustainable way, but in the mean time freaking out over how things are now if it is not instantly killing you, I don't think that's helpful and I think it is over-complicating things, obscuring the actual issue.

This is not the only issue where I feel this way and apparently PerC is the place where I can't control myself, lol. Sorry if this has a preaching tone. I think the concerns are valid but the attitude is not helpful.


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## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

Jamaia said:


> @AndieO and @Ald52OnMyTonguePlease I think that high quality food has rarely been easy to come by for people. People have always had to work hard to get food, it's not that different these days. If it's true that poor people struggle to afford good quality food (and I don't think that's entirely true, I think it's more complicated), I think it is because before all this cheap crap there just wouldn't have been enough food for us all, food of any kind. Intensive farming has kept more people alive without everyone having to farm, and corn syrup means sweets for everyone. People like it that way. In the past sugary foods were a luxury that not everyone could afford, I find it a bit odd to say that we shouldn't be eating it. Or maybe we shouldn't be eating it for our own sake, sure, but controlling people from producing sweet foods when they sell so well is another issue. It seems like all the refined sugar and syrup is filling a need, taking the sugar away doesn't make the need go away.
> 
> About labeling, while I think claims should be controlled and misleading should be prohibited and ingredients should be listed in detail, I'd still imagine something like "no artificial preservatives" or "all natural ingredients" would qualify even if "nitrate-free bacon" didn't, and the impact on the consumer who can afford the more expensive product and who is health-conscious enough to care about nitrates would be basically the same. Most people don't care, they just like bacon. And as far as I know truly nitrate free bacon is just salted meat, so most wouldn't actually be happy with "nitrate-free bacon". I think the information about healthy foods exists, it's just that people would like food to be both healthy and to taste the same as the unhealthy junk, be as cheap and as easy to prepare...
> 
> ...


Not preachy at all. Valid points that are laid out well. I don't have the patience to write out thread posts as well I as I should. I agree that there is so much convolution surrounding the issue that it becomes futile from a practical standpoint. Honest labeling for consumers is really the only thing I would propose to put into action. Totally agree that if people really have such lofty expectations from the producers of their veggies/fruit/dairy/livestock that they should raise their own as that is the only true way to have control over what they consume. Too many people are lazy as a lump of shit about any and everything and put their personal responsibilities into others' hands blindly.


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Thanks A52OMTP 



Ald52OnMyTonguePleas said:


> Too many people are lazy as a lump of shit about any and everything and put their personal responsibilities into others' hands blindly.


I don't really have a problem with that, I'm lazy af myself. What I have problem with I think is people being frustrated and even resentful with an imperfect world and essentially the realities of life. Just relax...

It's bit of a theme with me and I'm not sure if it's a good thing or something I should be working on in myself because I seem drawn to it always. Being resentful over something, that all things considered should be accepted as normal or even better than the norm and therefore celebrated, seems like a waste of mental energy to me, but on the other hand frustration with the way things are is probably the thing that keeps the world turning. People having good intentions and putting genuine effort into changing something that they think is a problem, but what gets me is them not seeing (in my opinion) the impact their change has on the entire system and not seeing the change they're looking to make can be counterproductive all things considered. A lot of the times I think it happens because we don't really talk so we easily loose sight of the big picture involving a lot of different people whose motivations and perspectives aren't obvious to us even if we tend to think they are obvious. Which, I think is just a reality of life which I should accept if I'm annoyed with nonacceptance in others, but then I don't like it if there doesn't seem to be any interest even to look at the big picture to see if the reasons that are used to support the change or attitude even hold. 

This is not directed towards @AndieO by the way, it's just that her concerns very much remind me of a lot of other things... I hope too that my kids aren't the ones who have side effects from vaccines. If they did, I don't think I would be blaming myself for it though, because all things considered I definitely want to vaccinate them. If some shot can be left out though, I'd rather leave it out. If I think the disease isn't too deadly, I'd rather not vaccinate. So there is a line for me too where I'd choose not to vaccinate _my kids_ with a new vaccine to what I think is generally a harmless disease, even if the lack of herd immunity against that disease might cause someone else's child that doesn't have the immunity to deal with the same disease to die. 

However, if I was better at following through with surveys I could sign one of my kids up for testing of new vaccines. I've taken part in one of those studies myself, but the thing with children is of course if parents don't let their children be used in these trials then the development of new and better vaccines is impossible. And ha, there it is again, one of those things that seriously irk me. If we go with "children's safety should always be the priority", "vaccines cause serious side effects", "we need safe vaccines", which are technically true I guess but in reality are delivered very emotionally and as an open-ended problem... The good intent may result in more injured and more dead children because a lot of people feel like it is too risky to even get a normal vaccination, let alone take part in trial, they'd be a bad parent if they let their child be put to risk like that. Vaccine development at stand still, or some parents having to take the cross of being "the bad parent" so that others can be the good parents and only give their own children safe vaccines or not vaccinate at all. And I guess what irks me there is the use of "children's safety first", it's not a good premise for anything, there's no sane way to define first, you can't always put their safety first so it is wrong to use that or a similar emotionally appealing idea as a premise or should I say leverage.


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## Statecraft Demystifier (Dec 12, 2016)

Department of Agriculture ruins our food. And who the Hell puts blind faith in big pharma? They've been corrupt since at least ancient Greece!

The vaccine-craze of today is the closely connected to ancient-medicinal thought regarding madness. 

I'm good. If you're too weak to survive by genetics you shouldn't be alive. Earth is not heaven. It's brutal and ruthless. I don't believe putting stock in vaccines will pay off in the long run. Experimental vaccines for probable diseases would be a fruitful endeavor, but most of these preventative measures (vaccines) are just ways to make money under a globalist disguise.


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

Jamaia said:


> Thanks A52OMTP
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I haven't taken anything personally. About vaccines...well the issue is always going to be complicated. I remember a time when vaccines were safe, when noone knew anyone with side effects....why can't we just go back to that? I mean vaccines were composed of the dead virus, ox gall cells (virus needs cells to stay on, cells that must be thoroughly checked because they may carry other diseases), distilled water, phenol and sodium chloride. Just this...no aluminium, no mercury, nothing else. And they tested the vaccine on themselves (the producers). I think this is the correct way to do it....producers should test vaccines on themselves see how it goes...no child testing.
So as for vaccines, I am not against them, I am very skeptical about what's on the market at the moment...
I am not frustrated with the world, but I do have eyes to see and a brain to think, I observe, see what doesn't seem right to me and try to do what's right. 
As for food....intensive agriculture is also what made us fatter. I think there is enough room and food for everybody in the world, but the heavy advertising of all sugary stuff and unhealthy stuff made some eat more, while others starve. Anyway, this is too long of a story to start discussing here.
As for the carrot....yes, it is important. There are sooo many children with cancer today, if I compare the number of cancer cases with the ones I heard of when I was a kid....well, results are not good. Anyway, you see things differently when you move from almost purely organic food to supermarket food. Where I live, all changed in almost a decade, so you kinda have to be blind not to see that things are not moving in the right direction.
The problem is that the 'players' involved in all these changes are too big, too many and too powerful to be changed.


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

Statecraft Demystifier said:


> Department of Agriculture ruins our food. And who the Hell puts blind faith in big pharma? They've been corrupt since at least ancient Greece!
> 
> The vaccine-craze of today is the closely connected to ancient-medicinal thought regarding madness.
> 
> I'm good. If you're too weak to survive by genetics you shouldn't be alive. Earth is not heaven. It's brutal and ruthless. I don't believe putting stock in vaccines will pay off in the long run. Experimental vaccines for probable diseases would be a fruitful endeavor, but most of these preventative measures (vaccines) are just ways to make money under a globalist disguise.


Do you have children?


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## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

AndieO said:


> Don't worry, I haven't taken anything personally. About vaccines...well the issue is always going to be complicated. I remember a time when vaccines were safe, when noone knew anyone with side effects....why can't we just go back to that? I mean vaccines were composed of the dead virus, ox gall cells (virus needs cells to stay on, cells that must be thoroughly checked because they may carry other diseases), distilled water, phenol and sodium chloride. Just this...no aluminium, no mercury, nothing else. *And they tested the vaccine on themselves (the producers).* I think this is the correct way to do it....producers should test vaccines on themselves see how it goes...no child testing.


They would be viewed as insane, wrongfully or not, if they had the gall/sense to do so. I have a friend who went through vet school that had a professor for an anesthesiology course that tested all the new drugs on himself before he would even proceed with research on test subjects. The doctor in question was handled as some sort of lunatic and given a wide berth by colleagues. Off topic but that's a reason I think Shulgin was an exemplary scientist--tested his chemical concoctions on himself first.


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## Statecraft Demystifier (Dec 12, 2016)

AndieO said:


> Do you have children?


Nope. I'm just a speculator. 

Let me guess, my opinion will change when I have kids? I've heard that before, but how does that figure in all the parents who stand their ground? I'm afraid I must be convinced that putting blind faith in Uncle Sam is smart because "I'm so afwaid of the unknown."

They can kiss my ass. I've worked for 'em. They lie. And fear-mongering is their greatest weapon.


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

Ald52OnMyTonguePleas said:


> They would be viewed as insane, wrongfully or not, if they had the gall/sense to do so. I have a friend who went through vet school that had a professor for an anesthesiology course that tested all the new drugs on himself before he would even proceed with research on test subjects. The doctor in question was handled as some sort of lunatic and given a wide berth by colleagues. Off topic but that's a reason I think Shulgin was an exemplary scientist--tested his chemical concoctions on himself first.


Yeah, i think it's common sense that if you make a vaccine that you deem safe and helpful for human kind, you should be the first to test it, so producers should be the tests for everything they make, no?


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

Statecraft Demystifier said:


> Nope. I'm just a speculator.
> 
> Let me guess, my opinion will change when I have kids? I've heard that before, but how does that figure in all the parents who stand their ground? I'm afraid I must be convinced that putting blind faith in Uncle Sam is smart because "I'm so afwaid of the unknown."
> 
> They can kiss my ass. I've worked for 'em. They lie. And fear-mongering is their greatest weapon.


I don't know if your opinion regarding vaccination will change once you have children, but I figured you don't have children when you said this 'I'm good. If you're too weak to survive by genetics you shouldn't be alive.' because no mother or father ever said this. This is what will change once you have children...you won't think they shouldn't be alive if their genes are weaker.

That said, I understand you are anti-vaccine or not anti-vaccine, but anti-vaccine producers of the moment?


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## Statecraft Demystifier (Dec 12, 2016)

AndieO said:


> I don't know if your opinion regarding vaccination will change once you have children, but I figured you don't have children when you said this 'I'm good. If you're too weak to survive by genetics you shouldn't be alive.' because no mother or father ever said this. This is what will change once you have children...you won't think they shouldn't be alive if their genes are weaker.
> 
> That said, I understand you are anti-vaccine or not anti-vaccine, but anti-vaccine producers of the moment?


What I said was too strong. It's not the vaccines themselves that piss me off. Vaccines are fine, as long as they're voluntary. My sister had to sign a bunch of paperwork so that her kids didn't have to take them. To me that's not voluntary. That's the state giving her permission to not have her kids get them.

It shouldn't be up to the state. The state doesn't know shit about vaccines, where they're coming from, designs, funding sources, nothing and yet they dictate what must be injected into children. We're putting blind faith in the designers of the vaccines, which come from all over the world.

Parents should have control over their kids' health. If they want vaccines, get them. If they don't, don't. All this forcefulness by the state makes me sick.

But public schools create stupidity and breed germs like nobody's business, so it all kind of fits in with the globalist agenda - another reason I avoid them.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Pollution is the next big challenge of humanity. I don't care about the quality of people's arguments as long as it leads them to fix that issue. Now when I go to a supermarket, most basic products are organic. Milk, eggs, butter, fruits, the cleaning products and kitchen tools are also less invasive. Should I complain? I can make myself 1kg of organic pastry for €5. I don't care if the stupids don't vaccine their kids. They must find a way or another to vanish, at least that one concerns no one else.


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

Statecraft Demystifier said:


> What I said was too strong. It's not the vaccines themselves that piss me off. Vaccines are fine, as long as they're voluntary. My sister had to sign a bunch of paperwork so that her kids didn't have to take them. To me that's not voluntary. That's the state giving her permission to not have her kids get them.
> 
> It shouldn't be up to the state. The state doesn't know shit about vaccines, where they're coming from, designs, funding sources, nothing and yet they dictate what must be injected into children. We're putting blind faith in the designers of the vaccines, which come from all over the world.
> 
> ...


I agree, but we cannot change that


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## AndieO (Oct 29, 2015)

What they put in children's food....delicious!

https://www.facebook.com/jerseydemic/videos/10154881713070681/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED


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