# Muscle Work vs Cardio?



## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

I've heard arguments for both sides on which one is better for toning, firming, losing that last little belly pooch. I, personally, assume it's a combination of both. But how should one break it down?
Muscle/Resistence vs Cardio/Plyometrics

About a 40/60, 30/70 ratio?

I know diet is a huge part. I don't count calories, but I just eat "healthier" and make healthier choices. I eat good sized proportions for my weight. But do you think there is a certain ratio I should maintain generally?

Protein/Veggies and Fruit/Carbs?
40/30/30?
30/40/30?


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

stiletto said:


> I've heard arguments for both sides on which one is better for toning, firming, losing that last little belly pooch. I, personally, assume it's a combination of both. But how should one break it down?
> Muscle/Resistence vs Cardio/Plyometrics
> 
> About a 40/60, 30/70 ratio?
> ...


Pick whatever is most appropriate for your goals. Do you want to be strong and explosive? Focus on strength and hiit. Do you want to have endurance? Focus on cardio.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Personally running/jogging has always shed off lbs the fastest. Doing combinations of cardio and strength is ideal. Also, I stopped drinking diet soda (or any type of soda), the belly pooch disappears. It just makes me bloated. Circuit training drops lbs as well.


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## Blazy (Oct 30, 2010)

Diet is the most important thing.


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

stiletto said:


> I've heard arguments for both sides on which one is better for toning, firming, losing that last little belly pooch. I, personally, assume it's a combination of both. But how should one break it down?
> Muscle/Resistence vs Cardio/Plyometrics
> 
> About a 40/60, 30/70 ratio?
> ...


No need to count calories. High fat low carbohydrate diet and you won't need to 'train' to lose weight - 70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbohydrate.

You will notice improvements in all aspects of your life - cognitive functioning, energy levels, appetite, digestion just to name a few

10 Proven Health Benefits of Low-Carb and Ketogenic Diets

23 Studies on Low-Carb and Low-Fat Diets - Time to Retire The Fad

I've been doing HFLC for a couple of years now and I'm one of the leanest and strongest guys in my gym, and I never do cardio


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

Ramon said:


> No need to count calories. High fat low carbohydrate diet and you won't need to 'train' to lose weight - 70% fat, 25% protein, 5% carbohydrate.
> 
> You will notice improvements in all aspects of your life - cognitive functioning, energy levels, appetite, digestion just to name a few
> 
> ...


Keto only works because it indirectly results in a reduction in calories. It's harder to consume large amounts of protein and fats than it is to eat erroneous amounts of cupcakes and marshmallow bunnies.

Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no meta... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

Glycogen and Resistance Training


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Permeate said:


> Keto only works because it indirectly results in a reduction in calories. It's harder to consume large amounts of protein and fats than it is to eat erroneous amounts of cupcakes and marshmallow bunnies.
> 
> Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no meta... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> Glycogen and Resistance Training


I don't disagree with you, you're 100% correct. The key difference though, compared to a low calorie carbohydrate diet is you will be much more satiated with high fat. Fat is the most satiating nutrient, so you will be consuming less while feeling fuller and more satisfied for longer. It's essentially how we evolved to eat. People who try to do the whole caloric deficit while consuming high carbohydrates will be much hungrier and less satisfied from the foods they DO eat.


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## ForsakenMe (Aug 30, 2010)

Cardio has helped me with the weight, but when I need to tighten up and slim down all over, I am all about the weight/strength training. A healthy diet also helps immensely- you can workout all day but if you eat like crap, it won't do you justice. Plain and simple.


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm doing 3 resistance workouts per week, one lower body, one upper body, one total body. So that's about 50/50 resistance/cardio if you make one day a rest/recovery day. This is working fairly well for me atm.

Not enough can be said about how important diet is, so I'm not gonna write that novel.:tongue:


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

Ramon said:


> I don't disagree with you, you're 100% correct. The key difference though, compared to a low calorie carbohydrate diet is you will be much more satiated with high fat. Fat is the most satiating nutrient, so you will be consuming less while feeling fuller and more satisfied for longer. It's essentially how we evolved to eat. People who try to do the whole caloric deficit while consuming high carbohydrates will be much hungrier and less satisfied from the foods they DO eat.


I eat 4000 kcal/day, I really can't relate to being hungry. Sorry. :laughing:

For real though, why would you do keto when not at a deficit?


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Permeate said:


> I eat 4000 kcal/day, I really can't relate to being hungry. Sorry. :laughing:
> 
> For real though, why would you do keto when not at a deficit?


I do a strict ketogenic diet because I want to live a long and prosperous life, benefits include:
- Optimal cognitive functioning
- Optimal and sustained energy levels (no need for any stimulants like coffee)
- Optimal weight and appetite
- No chance of becoming insulin resistant, which means you have no chance of getting metabolic disease (diabetes, heart disease, obesity)
- Greatly reduced risk of developing Alzheimer's disease
- Reduced risk of cancer (as cancer cells primary energy source is glucose, so doing keto essentially starves the cells)
- I can eat meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner

I'm sure there's plenty of others but they're the main reasons


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## Makoa (Jul 3, 2014)

Cardio has some pretty strong diminishing returns, and in extreme examples it helps put on fat.. But for most people it's great for shedding some lbs if that's the goal and you are overweight. 

Really, strength and conditioning is the way to go if you want a lifestyle change.

Keto diets kinda suck. It's better to carb cycle, or in laymans terms eat for what you do.. If you are going to train heavy then eat lots of carbs before and after that training. If you aren't training, then lay off the carbs. 

Treat carbs like fuel, before and after you want fuel.. Meats and fats are like building blocks. Veggies, fruits and other greens are great for helping it all pass and supply lots of great vitamins, minerals and anti oxidant compounds that help to manage inflammation. 

Thinking about it this way works. 

And, having a pint of ice cream now and then doesn't hurt after a heavy leg day.  Love McConnell's DOUBLE PEANUT BUTTER CHIP PINT - McConnell's Fine Ice Creams


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ramon said:


> I do a strict ketogenic diet because I want to live a long and prosperous life, benefits include:
> - Optimal cognitive functioning
> - Optimal and sustained energy levels (no need for any stimulants like coffee)
> - Optimal weight and appetite
> ...


What LCHF would you recommend for someone who is too poor to buy substantial amounts of quality meat? I personally find that LCHF fits my metabolism quite well as well though I don't follow it rigorously by any means, and too low carb can also make you tired and feel fatigued, but the real issue I have is that I cannot afford to buy expensive meat. I buy meat when it's on sale.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

-Ephemeral- said:


> What LCHF would you recommend for someone who is too poor to buy substantial amounts of quality meat? I personally find that LCHF fits my metabolism quite well as well though I don't follow it rigorously by any means, and too low carb can also make you tired and feel fatigued, but the real issue I have is that I cannot afford to buy expensive meat. I buy meat when it's on sale.


Hm, if you're thinking of going high fat, low carbs, then bad quality meat is the worst thing you could do for yourself... 

Generally, you get the most health benefits by eating healthy fats from raw, unsalted nuts (But don't eat raw peanuts), large amounts of vegetables, legumes, and fruits, cutting out processed foods entirely (Anything made with white flour and sugar.) (Even bread and pastas tend to be on the negative side, being processed.)

If you're thinking of high protein and low carbs, then I'd suggest protein shakes. You can order them online, making sure that they have very few ingredients other than whey protein and/or flavour, if that's your deal.

Tuna is a really great source of protein, but most people hate it. If you find a way to love it, or tolerate it, it's a great (cheaper) way to get protein.

Just some ideas to get you started.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> Hm, if you're thinking of going high fat, low carbs, then bad quality meat is the worst thing you could do for yourself...


I know, hence asking.



> Generally, you get the most health benefits by eating healthy fats from raw, unsalted nuts (But don't eat raw peanuts), large amounts of vegetables, legumes, and fruits, cutting out processed foods entirely (Anything made with white flour and sugar.) (Even bread and pastas tend to be on the negative side, being processed.)


Always disliked peanuts so that's not a problem. I am cooking most of my own food so it's mostly unprocessed. I don't entirely exclude processed carb but I try to minimize how much I eat. 



> If you're thinking of high protein and low carbs, then I'd suggest protein shakes. You can order them online, making sure that they have very few ingredients other than whey protein and/or flavour, if that's your deal.


Yeah, I am trying a whey one with chocolate taste. I actually got a sweet tooth the first time I drank it because I hadn't consumed anything as sweet in a long time. It's just whey and flavor. 



> Tuna is a really great source of protein, but most people hate it. If you find a way to love it, or tolerate it, it's a great (cheaper) way to get protein.
> 
> Just some ideas to get you started.


Fish is expensive here, heh. I usually end up eating pork because it's the cheapest type of protein around. Sometimes frozen chicken filets or minced meat.


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

-Ephemeral- said:


> What LCHF would you recommend for someone who is too poor to buy substantial amounts of quality meat? I personally find that LCHF fits my metabolism quite well as well though I don't follow it rigorously by any means, and too low carb can also make you tired and feel fatigued, but the real issue I have is that I cannot afford to buy expensive meat. I buy meat when it's on sale.


I'm not saying this is what you do, but a lot of people make the mistake of doing low carb and low fat. When people experience fatigue on HFLC it's generally because they're not consuming enough fat to make up for the carbohydrates they're not consuming. Alternatively, some people experience 'low carb flu' for the first few days entering keto as the body is adjusting to the change in energy source, but if you can push through this you should feel great on the other side.

Anyway, some meals and tips on how I get lots of fat into my diet:
- An assortment of eggs, bacon, sausages, grilled tomato is always a good breakfast
- Bulletproof coffee for when you're on the go - coffee with butter, coconut oil and cream. You will feel really satiated and it will get you through until lunch really easily
- I make a big batch of bolognese mince for my work weeks to have at lunch. Only costs me about $20-25 worth of ingredients for about 3kg worth of food. I will put lots of butter and cheese in mine.
- If I'm eating meat or a dish in general that doesn't have much fat on it (e.g. chicken) I will just use as much cream and cheese as possible.
- If you can get your hands on chicken hearts, they're extremely cheap, tasty and good for you. Cook them with some onion, butter and leek / spinach and you'll have a field day. 
- If you're feeling like something sweet - cream, cocoa powder and natural sweetner always does the trick.
- As mentioned, I will just eat as much dairy as possible, and find I will hit my fat quotas really easily.
- Get yourself some coconut oil, it's one of life's best all purpose ingredients and sources of saturated fat. Can be used for food, tanning oil, body wash, shampoo, lubricant - I couldn't live without it.
- When shopping I always keep an eye out for roast specials, or other meat. Where I live I have a place where you can buy wholesale bulk scotch / porterhouse / rump steak for like $7/kg (compared to $25/kg in commercial supermarkets). So I will just buy 5 or 6kg and cut it up myself, freeze it and it lasts me a couple of weeks.

These are the main things I will look for while budgeting, hope it helps


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Word Dispenser said:


> Generally, you get the most health benefits by eating healthy fats from raw, unsalted nuts (But don't eat raw peanuts), large amounts of vegetables, legumes, and fruits, cutting out processed foods entirely (Anything made with white flour and sugar.) (Even bread and pastas tend to be on the negative side, being processed.)


Good advice, but you missed out the healthiest fat of all - saturated fat :happy:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ramon said:


> I'm not saying this is what you do, but a lot of people make the mistake of doing low carb and low fat. When people experience fatigue on HFLC it's generally because they're not consuming enough fat to make up for the carbohydrates they're not consuming. Alternatively, some people experience 'low carb flu' for the first few days entering keto as the body is adjusting to the change in energy source, but if you can push through this you should feel great on the other side.
> 
> Anyway, some meals and tips on how I get lots of fat into my diet:
> - An assortment of eggs, bacon, sausages, grilled tomato is always a good breakfast
> ...


Bah, Americans. You always suggest to eat things that's not readily available here like almond milk. Coconut oil? No idea where to get that. The closest thing would be coconut butter. 

But yeah, I don't buy low fat products and try to eat a high level of fat. A lot of low fat products also have additives in them so it would be better to just buy the base product anyway. Also, fat makes everything taste so much better, of course. And what's your opinion on chicken liver? 

I tend to make my own smoothies from fruit when I want something sweet.



Ramon said:


> Good advice, but you missed out the healthiest fat of all - saturated fat :happy:


Poly or mono?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Ramon said:


> Good advice, but you missed out the healthiest fat of all - saturated fat :happy:


post evidence please


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> post evidence please


The simplest explanation is that not all saturated fats are the same. Omega 3 and omega 6 are both polyunsaturated after all, and MCT oil is made of saturated fats Effects of dietary medium-chain tr... [Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI .

Also while we're here, cholesterol doesn't do crap to progress heart disease without inflammation.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

-Ephemeral- said:


> I know, hence asking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pork is a huge no-no, in my opinion. Go for lean meats like lean ground beef, turkey, or even chicken. If you get cooked chicken, you can rinse the fat off of it, as well.

Also-- Where you're living, coconut butter may very well be actual coconut oil. Coconut oil is hard like butter, and it has to melt. The _actual _coconut butter I know of is mixed with the meat and oil, and it's really not very easy to come by, unless you go to health stores. (Artisana coconut butter is amazing.)

Fish is generally expensive, but tuna should be cheaper than most fish. Check out the cans and see.

I think roasted peanuts would be fine if you liked them, just not raw, which comes in Asian supermarkets and aren't generally easy to get a hold of anyway.

That protein shake you have should be fine as a source of protein, if you can't get a hold of anything else. Eat lots of legumes, like chickpeas, lentils (green and red), and different kinds of beans-- These will supplement the protein you're getting from shakes just fine. It's been shown that you will have complete proteins from legumes, but you have to eat a variety (Or alternatively, eat a small amount of complete proteins with them). These are cheap, you can get them in bulk, and soak them overnight before cooking.

If protein shakes are your primary source of protein, then make sure to spread them throughout the day. Best to have a shake after a workout with some fast carbs (like banana), rather than before. (Especially if weight training)


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

the_natrix said:


> The simplest explanation is that not all saturated fats are the same. Omega 3 and omega 6 are both polyunsaturated after all, and MCT oil is made of saturated fats Effects of dietary medium-chain tr... [Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI .
> 
> Also while we're here, cholesterol doesn't do crap to progress heart disease without inflammation.


You claim "saturated fats are the healthiest" and then you only post about MCTs. I hope you understand how that could largely misinform someone.
Omegas 3 and 6 are polyunsaturated yes, why are you mentioning that? 
Btw, in general, posting one research with 11 subjects is usually very poor evidence for something (unless it's the only one existing). Just saying.

As for the cholesterol, the inflammation usually starts after the cholesterol permeates the vessels, as that damages the vessel and causes the inflammatory response, which is why having a high LDL is pretty much proven as a risk for CVD(And atheromatosis starts from 10 years old).


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> You claim "saturated fats are the healthiest" and then you only post about MCTs.


Facepalm 

If you look carefully, me (the natrix) and the guy who claimed saturated fats are healthiest (Ramon) happen to be two different people. 

I'm just offering insight on the matter. Also, sources?

Edit: Long-term effects of a ketogenic diet in obese patients

This study with 83 people shows an increase in HDL and a decrease in LDL in those put on a ketogenic diet.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

the_natrix said:


> Facepalm
> 
> If you look carefully, me (the natrix) and the guy who claimed saturated fats are healthiest (Ramon) happen to be two different people.
> 
> ...


My apologies I didn't notice that you were different persons.
Sources about what? The cholesterol?
Yes ketogenic diets can be effective for the lipidemic profile, however we're not really sure if it's because of the weight loss or the diet itself when it comes to studies like this one. But that's not directly related to the healthiness of saturated fats.


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> My apologies I didn't notice that you were different persons.
> Sources about what? The cholesterol?
> Yes ketogenic diets can be effective for the lipidemic profile, however we're not really sure if it's because of the weight loss or the diet itself when it comes to studies like this one. But that's not directly related to the healthiness of saturated fats.


Yeah, I just want people to use sources if they're counter-arguing after asking for sources. =P 

Personally I just want people to stop lumping fats in groups and saying they act the same way, hence my omega/polyunsaturated fat argument. Each fatty acid is unique, the research will catch up eventually.


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## stargazing grasshopper (Oct 25, 2013)

After baking or broiling local salmon, I peel off the skin but leave the fat on the flesh & eat it.
I was advised that salmon & lake trout are high in omega acids.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

the_natrix said:


> Yeah, I just want people to use sources if they're counter-arguing after asking for sources. =P
> 
> Personally I just want people to stop lumping fats in groups and saying they act the same way, hence my omega/polyunsaturated fat argument. Each fatty acid is unique, the research will catch up eventually.


You are right!
Okay, here's some evidence about the formation of atheromatous plaques. 
I think the most definitive is this one A definition of initial, fatty streak, and intermediate lesions of atherosclerosis. A report from the Committee on Vascular Lesions of the Council on Arteriosclerosis, American Heart Association.
because it targets specifically this question about how it begins.
The others pretty much use it as a given and make a brief mention.
Chinese Medical Journal: a peer reviewed, open access journal, published semimonthly by the Chinese Medical Association
Histological Changes and Risk Factor Associations in Type 2 Atherosclerotic Lesions (Fatty Streaks) in Young Adults
Markers of atherosclerotic development in ch... [Atherosclerosis. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI (FA is a genetic disorder that creates abnormal LDL levels, by problematic genes for LDL receptor/apoB)

And this is a systematic review about the effects of LDL on atherosclerotic plaques on the coronary arteries.
Systematic study of the effects of low... [BMC Cardiovasc Disord. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI

---
I agree with you, each fatty acid is unique and there's no definitive answer to what is better for health, with the exception of trans fats.
LDL cholesterol however is strictly linked to risk for CVD. The question is how lipids affect LDL-C and for that there's contradicting evidence.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

stiletto said:


> I've heard arguments for both sides on which one is better for toning, firming, losing that last little belly pooch. I, personally, assume it's a combination of both. But how should one break it down?
> Muscle/Resistence vs Cardio/Plyometrics
> 
> About a 40/60, 30/70 ratio?
> ...


Depends on what you want. More weight lifting will tone up your body. Too many really heavy weights and you'll go a bit over toned for my personal preferences, I don't like girls that look more ripped than I am . Of course different people prefer different things. Too much cardio and you'll look like a rail, not necessarily the best thing either.

Cardio & diet typically will shed the pounds. Weight training gives you that nice firm definition once the fat is off. I think alternating days between cardio & weight training is a good way to go.

Take a look at the P90X diet plan. They start with higher protein for fat shredding then build up carbs to maximize performance in the later stages. Diet mainly depends on what your goal is.

Stage 1 - Fat shredding - 50% protein, 30% carbs, 20% fat
Stage 2 - Energy booster - 40% protein, 40% carbs, 20% fat
Stage 3 - Endurance maximizing - 20% protein 60% carbs, 20% fat.

http://www.teambeachbody.com/home/-/dl_get_file/32ea4c06-2287-4660-8adc-8db758929d28


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

Weight training will make you gain weight.

Cardio will make you lose weight.

I have done both.


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> I agree with you, each fatty acid is unique and there's no definitive answer to what is better for health, with the exception of trans fats.


Look out though, I thought I saw something the other day about some natural forms of trans fats that are supposed to be healthy. :frustrating:

Vaccenic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biology's a *!$#^ and it's amazing that anything even works lol.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

the_natrix said:


> Look out though, I thought I saw something the other day about some natural forms of trans fats that are supposed to be healthy. :frustrating:
> 
> Vaccenic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Biology's a *!$#^ and it's amazing that anything even works lol.


Oh I didn't know about this study, it's at the first stage though (animal studies) so there's still a lot of future for that.
After 3 years of studying dietetics I still can't get over the fact of how complex the body is heh xD .


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

bluekitdon said:


> Depends on what you want. More weight lifting will tone up your body. Too many really heavy weights and you'll go a bit over toned for my personal preferences, I don't like girls that look more ripped than I am . Of course different people prefer different things. Too much cardio and you'll look like a rail, not necessarily the best thing either.
> 
> Cardio & diet typically will shed the pounds. Weight training gives you that nice firm definition once the fat is off. I think alternating days between cardio & weight training is a good way to go.
> 
> ...


I'm actually doing the P90X work out. I'm not doing it intensely every single day like they are. I'm able to do it about 4 times a week (but I've been doing it since January this year and plan on doing it as long as I can). Diet wise, I think I'm about Stage 2 though I'm not following their meal plan, just the ratios. Do you think I might be plateauing? I feel like I don't need to lose weight, I just need to tone up. Is that more muscle/resistance work then?


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

stiletto said:


> I'm actually doing the P90X work out. I'm not doing it intensely every single day like they are. I'm able to do it about 4 times a week (but I've been doing it since January this year and plan on doing it as long as I can). Diet wise, I think I'm about Stage 2 though I'm not following their meal plan, just the ratios. Do you think I might be plateauing? I feel like I don't need to lose weight, I just need to tone up. Is that more muscle/resistance work then?


What is "muscle" work?


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

Slider said:


> What is "muscle" work?


Weights mostly? Pull-ups, push ups, curls, lifts, squats? The P90X program has Chest, Shoulders and Back, Back and Biceps, Legs and Back, Core etc. Then they have a few cardio and stretch work outs throughout. Cardio, plyometrics, yoga, kenpo.


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

stiletto said:


> Weights mostly? Pull-ups, push ups, curls, lifts, squats? The P90X program has Chest, Shoulders and Back, Back and Biceps, Legs and Back, Core etc. Then they have a few cardio and stretch work outs throughout. Cardio, plyometrics, yoga, kenpo.


If you just want to be toned and lean:

70% cardio
30% body-weight / strength training exercises


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

stiletto said:


> I'm actually doing the P90X work out. I'm not doing it intensely every single day like they are. I'm able to do it about 4 times a week (but I've been doing it since January this year and plan on doing it as long as I can). Diet wise, I think I'm about Stage 2 though I'm not following their meal plan, just the ratios. Do you think I might be plateauing? I feel like I don't need to lose weight, I just need to tone up. Is that more muscle/resistance work then?


Check out this weight calculator for ideal weight to see where you are. Most of us are on the high side of this, to show those nicely toned areas that you got through weights you need to cut down closer to the ideal weight. Ideal Weight Calculator

If you still have some bumps that you can pinch (fat) that you're trying to get rid of, then more cardio and cutting calories is probably in order. Keep in mind that most of the models and such that you see are either photo shopped or in the lower percentages of body fat. Body builders typically carry some fat during training as that allows them to quickly build muscle, then cut in to low body fat percentages using cardio and calorie restrictions for competitions.


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

bluekitdon said:


> Check out this weight calculator for ideal weight to see where you are. Most of us are on the high side of this, to show those nicely toned areas that you got through weights you need to cut down closer to the ideal weight. Ideal Weight Calculator
> 
> If you still have some bumps that you can pinch (fat) that you're trying to get rid of, then more cardio and cutting calories is probably in order. Keep in mind that most of the models and such that you see are either photo shopped or in the lower percentages of body fat. Body builders typically carry some fat during training as that allows them to quickly build muscle, then cut in to low body fat percentages using cardio and calorie restrictions for competitions.


Thanks! Weight has never been an issue for me. I'd just like to trim the extra bumps/fat around my midsection. 
At the moment, my body is similar to Kourtney Kardashian's.









This is my goal:









This would be the goal from there:


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Red Panda said:


> post evidence please


Normally I wouldn't spout the validity of anecdotal evidence, but I thought I would share mine as I have a lot of experience with it and am very passionate about it. I've been doing a strict ketogenic diet for 2 years, I have 5 friends who have been doing it for 5-10 years. Our diet comprises of 70% saturated fat, 25% protein, <5% carbohydrates. All of us have had every aspect of our life improved on the diet, ranging from cognitive functioning, energy levels and weight. We've all had our lipid profiles and cholesterol measured and all of us are completely optimal and couldn't be healthier - much to the surprise of our doctors. I've also had two friends lose 30kg on the diet and easily keep it off. It's an emerging dichotomy that's still in it's early phases, but is gaining more traction and attention now than ever before. 

Anyway here's some articles. Topics include benefits of saturated fat, ketogenic diet, low fat vs HFLC. It's important to note the majority of the information I've read about it have been through books relating to biochemistry, which is where a lot of the answers to these complex questions lie. If you're still wanting more evidence I can dig these up, but don't have access to them at the moment.

Top 8 Reasons Not to Fear Saturated Fats

http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/

http://authoritynutrition.com/10-benefits-of-low-carb-ketogenic-diets/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21978979

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sw...ogma-in-favor-of-low-carb-high-fat-nutrition/

Is a high-fat diet GOOD for the heart? Doctors say carbs are more damaging to arteries | Mail Online

Saturated fats and heart disease link 'unproven' - National Library of Medicine - PubMed Health


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Slider said:


> Weight training will make you gain weight.
> 
> Cardio will make you lose weight.
> 
> I have done both.


Sorry, but that's not _precisely _true.

Weight training will make you gain weight only if you eat more than you're burning. Weight training can actually make you lose weight, because the muscle burns the fat, and if you're eating a lot of protein, but not much kcal. And you can still make progress and build muscle, as long as you're getting the proteins. 

I know this because not only have I researched it extensively, I have a first hand account. Weight-training was an essential component in my weight loss-- Along with, of course, my diet. And I did not bulk up in the process, despite making progress musculatorily.

Cardio _can _make you lose weight-- But, you might not lose weight at all if you're not eating correctly. (Ie: Eating more than you burn will make you gain weight, no matter what.)

What you eat is very important for progress in either venue, and it all depends on your goals.

If you wanna bulk up visually, then yeah, you wanna eat a _lot _while weight-training.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

lt's ridiculous but l've felt too bulky lately, after the pretty light weight training l've been doing. Not really muscular, just a feeling of bulk that will pretty quickly send me into a neurotic state but l was eating a lot.

my dilemma is pretty much what l thought and goes along with @Word Dispenser's reply... l can't NOT eat massive amounts of food while doing even light strength training. l don't know if it's because l was new to it, or out of shape for the most part too.

Maybe taking a short break from it altogether, focusing on cardio and then doing some maintenance...later?

Unless your target is very specific and timely.


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Went to a pool today and did laps a good workout. A good combination of both.


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## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

I think you can do cardio every day (maybe 2 days of rest) and do weights every other day.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Lady O.W. Bro said:


> lt's ridiculous but l've felt too bulky lately, after the pretty light weight training l've been doing. Not really muscular, just a feeling of bulk that will pretty quickly send me into a neurotic state but l was eating a lot.
> 
> my dilemma is pretty much what l thought and goes along with @_Word Dispenser_'s reply... l can't NOT eat massive amounts of food while doing even light strength training. l don't know if it's because l was new to it, or out of shape for the most part too.
> 
> ...


My recommendation (if you're looking for one! ) is to supplement your weight training with cardio on your off days. It's normal to want to eat a lot when you're starting out, 'cause you're working hard, and you're not used to it!

Another thing would be to only eat unprocessed foods-- Vegetables, fruits, legumes, lean proteins, healthy fats (I'd avoid saturated fat for _now_, unless it's coming from a natural source like coconut. I'd avoid saturated fat from animal sources like the plague.).. 

I've noticed as long as you're laying off ice cream and candy *cough WD cough*, you _can't _really gain excess weight on this kinda diet, because you fill up on vegetables and you simply _don't _wanna eat more. But, the trick is to _only _eat these healthy foods. And if you're addicted to sugar, that's freakin' tough. :kitteh:


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Ramon said:


> Normally I wouldn't spout the validity of anecdotal evidence, but I thought I would share mine as I have a lot of experience with it and am very passionate about it. I've been doing a strict ketogenic diet for 2 years, I have 5 friends who have been doing it for 5-10 years. Our diet comprises of 70% saturated fat, 25% protein, <5% carbohydrates. All of us have had every aspect of our life improved on the diet, ranging from cognitive functioning, energy levels and weight. We've all had our lipid profiles and cholesterol measured and all of us are completely optimal and couldn't be healthier - much to the surprise of our doctors. I've also had two friends lose 30kg on the diet and easily keep it off. It's an emerging dichotomy that's still in it's early phases, but is gaining more traction and attention now than ever before.
> 
> Anyway here's some articles. Topics include benefits of saturated fat, ketogenic diet, low fat vs HFLC. It's important to note the majority of the information I've read about it have been through books relating to biochemistry, which is where a lot of the answers to these complex questions lie. If you're still wanting more evidence I can dig these up, but don't have access to them at the moment.


Well, if we speak with anecdotal evidence, SFAs pretty much ruin me. The periods that I consumed a lot of cheese and bacon (and I don't eat bacon in general) my biochem was terrible for my age, except my HDL which is always high. 


Top 8 Reasons Not to Fear Saturated Fats

This article has some good studies, for example in the 3rd point the systematic reviews are strong evidence that SFAs may not be as harmful as we think, however it is still far from making it "the healthiest", since there's no such claim from the researchers.

However, in the 2nd point, that SFAs raise HDL-c, not only the studies he links say no such thing, but one of them concludes that SFAs should be partially replaced by unsaturated for reducing risk.

23 Studies on Low-Carb and Low-Fat Diets - Time to Retire The Fad

I read these studies one by one and they do not really provide evidence for the healthiness of SFAs. They do not distinguish between fats in most studies were they used high fat diets;in some, the subjects increased consumption of all types. So it's questionable whether it was the type of lipids or the weight loss itself that caused a more favorable lipid profile. If they increased consumption of MUFA or PUFA we can't really conclude that it was SFAs that improved markers. And a couple of those studies used monounsaturated and Mediterranean diets as a high-fat diet. Only one used specifically high saturated fatty acids and the result was the same with the low carb, low SFA (the 17th). The 19th also mentions higher SFA intake but I don't have access to read it. And I don't know why he posted the 21st study since it pretty much says the opposite of what the article wants to say, the high fat diet in this study increased FFAs and LDL-c.


10 Proven Health Benefits of Low-Carb and Ketogenic Diets

The first 3 points are not really my concern since they focus on weight loss which is covered by the previous link as well.
In the 4th point, the 14th study he posts is about a high fat diet with monounsaturated fats which is nothing new really (see Mediterranean diet). And in the 15th link we don't really know exactly how subjects ate because it was a free diet with general guidelines. 
In the 5th point about HDL cholesterol the 21st link does have some interesting data, however both the 22nd and 23rd mention that while some SFAs raised HDL compared to carbohydrates, when replaced by unsaturated fats the result is better.


Saturated fat, carbohydrates and cardiovascular d... [Neth J Med. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Yes this is interesting, it illustrates how we don't know as much as we think. But it's still not evidence for you to claim that SFAs are the healthiest.

I won't comment on the rest individually, since they focus on fat vs carbs rather than the types of fat themselves.

However I am interested in this matter as these last days I read the systematic reviews about the contradictory evidence for SFAs and I will discuss it with my supervisor dietitians in the hospital since I'm doing my practice currently. I'd like to hear their opinion because it's one of the best university hospitals in the country so it'll be interesting.
Oh and there are some not so favorable for SFAs
example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23031737


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Red Panda said:


> Well, if we speak with anecdotal evidence, SFAs pretty much ruin me. The periods that I consumed a lot of cheese and bacon (and I don't eat bacon in general) my biochem was terrible for my age, except my HDL which is always high.
> 
> 
> Top 8 Reasons Not to Fear Saturated Fats
> ...


I guess my statement "saturated fats are the healthiest fats" was perhaps over zealous in the efforts to make my point that there's nothing to fear about them. For me it's the most easily accessible, satiating fat and makes me feel the most energised, so while it might not be distinctly better than some of the other healthy fats per se (Omega 3, Omega 6, Omega 9, Mono, Poly), it's still on par with them. I'll rephrase my statement to "saturated fat is one of the healthiest fats."

In regards to your article against saturated fat, I can't see the full text but the abstract makes no mention of carbohydrate or protein intake. Almost all the research I've seen vilifying saturated fat can be easily refuted because they fail to take carbohydrate and/or protein intake into account and look solely at saturated fat intake on it's own. It's often the case that those who consume high amount of saturated fat also consume more carbohydrates, so it's completely misleading to assert that any positive correlation with CVD in these studies is attributed to saturated fat when we don't know the intake of other macro-nutrients.

If you can provide me with research that shows a positive correlation between saturated fat intake and CVD / Metabolic Syndrome while keeping carbohydrates and protein at a constant please enlighten me, I'm yet to find one. All the studies I've seen that account for this show the inverse relationship.


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

Word Dispenser said:


> Sorry, but that's not _precisely _true.
> 
> Weight training will make you gain weight only if you eat more than you're burning. Weight training can actually make you lose weight, because the muscle burns the fat, and if you're eating a lot of protein, but not much kcal. And you can still make progress and build muscle, as long as you're getting the proteins.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

I am speaking from the perspective of a man who lifts weights to get bigger and stronger, which invariably means gaining weight.

I don't really known anyone who lifts weights to lose weight.

I have never placed any importance on dieting, because I have never dieted, nor have I ever been overweight.

It just occurred to me that occasionally I will only eat a salad or fruit smoothie for dinner, but it's not really done out of necessity.

I do, however, understand the importance of removing carbohydrates from your diet; but only if you are not burning very many calories or are limiting the amount of cardio you do.

My weekly routine typically consists of cardio on Mon/Wed and weight training on Tues/Fri/Sat/Sun, with Thurs being my rest day.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Slider said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I am speaking from the perspective of a man who lifts weights to get bigger and stronger, which invariably means gaining weight.
> 
> ...


Well, weight-lifting is actually very important to maintain good health... It's a definite plus, whether bulking or not.


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## Kyandigaru (Mar 11, 2012)

right now, i do cardio. It works a bunch however i plan my workouts. I do cardio first THEN strength training. I DO have weights now, (8lbs) i want to go up to 12 or 15 before this year is over.


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mackenziekruvant/what-lifting-weights-taught-me-about-being-a-woman?bffb


What Lifting Weights Taught Me About Being A Woman

Sixteen women explain how strength training has helped them find a strength they didn’t know they had.


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