# Yay! Another new questionnaire for me to have fun with! *grabby hands*



## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I agree. I think that loops can help to discern or point towards a certain type though, as some types are more likely to experience loop-like behavior than others, just like some types are more likely to experience the grip of inferior than others. I honestly don't see the difference here. Either we buy into that a type only has a dominant and aux function and they determine the entire behavior of the individual and the rest is just completely jumpled OR we accept that there is still an internal relationship between the functions that is ordered a certain way so when working together under great stress it will for example look like NiFi.


well, the opposing force of the dom function, called the inferior function, has to exist as an opposition to the dom function, of course others and Jung explains that much better than i can... so from what i understand of what Jung is saying, is that the territary works with the inferior function, the way the aux works with the dom function, so using INFP as an example that would be Fi/Ne and Te/Si in those orders as the Ne works with dom Fi, and in the inferior aspect, the Si works with the dom Te (Te is dom over Si). So if there was a loop theory in the grip, under stress, in an eruption of inferior function, then the loop would be Te/Si with Te as dom, knocking Fi/Ne out of the way, not as in Si taking over Fi, but rather Te taking over Fi as opposing doms? like an INFP becomes an irrational ESTJ in an eruption of inferior function, and INFJ becomes an irrational ESTP, an INTP becomes an irrational ESFJ, etc... the "Hidden" personality as labeled by Quenk.

However, i haven't finished studying on any one foundation or branch/offshoot yet, i'm still trying to study Jung, Quenk and all the rest, so i am no expert, but just saying from what i have gathered so far according to how i interpret it.

So, in my interpretation, if anyone is in the grip/loop/eruption of inferior function/stress/distress, etc, then they behave as an irrational of their opposite *hidden i should have said rather than opposite* personality type, that makes sense to me. The looping thing of the territary knocking the dom out of the way, doesn't make sense to me, nor to Jung.

and @Acerbusvenator about what you said on being picky with accepting new information, i think everyone is picky, they will accept what they want to accept, i agree any type is like that, i agree with you on that.


*EDIT: In further thinking on this, you could say the internal introverted function gets replaced by the other internal introverted function, and the same for the external functions being replaced, but the problem is, the dom of the other internal or external function that is working with the dom as in using the INFP for example, the Te is what is dominantly overtaking the Fi, but in fact yes Si becomes stronger than Fi at that point but being used irrationaly along with Te (Si being used more irrational working with inferior - hence Quenk refers to it as the INFP spitting out fact after incorrect fact, i guess you could say Si under stress with Te is not recalling clearly), because Fi is now knocked out of the way with it's Ne, but it is Te that is dom over Si, so it is still Te that is dom over Fi, at that point Te is the ruling force, hence that is why INFP's are known to be very harsh when under stress, and worse because Te is being used irrationally, not rationally like a Te dom like ESTJ, so the INFP comes across as being stupid and irrational.* Does all that make sense?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> well, the opposing force of the dom function, called the inferior function, has to exist as an opposition to the dom function, of course others and Jung explains that much better than i can... so from what i understand of what Jung is saying, is that the territary works with the inferior function, the way the aux works with the dom function, so using INFP as an example that would be Fi/Ne and Te/Si in those orders as the Ne works with dom Fi, and in the inferior aspect, the Si works with the dom Te (Te is dom over Si). So if there was a loop theory in the grip, under stress, in an eruption of inferior function, then the loop would be Te/Si with Te as dom, knocking Fi/Ne out of the way, not as in Si taking over Fi, but rather Te taking over Fi as opposing doms? like an INFP becomes an irrational ESTJ in an eruption of inferior function, and INFJ becomes an irrational ESTP, an INTP becomes an irrational ESFJ, etc... the "Hidden" personality as labeled by Quenk.
> 
> However, i haven't finished studying on any one foundation or branch/offshoot yet, i'm still trying to study Jung, Quenk and all the rest, so i am no expert, but just saying from what i have gathered so far according to how i interpret it.
> 
> ...


I really don't quite agree with this model as I think all the functions are slaves to the dominant no matter what, but that's my personal opinion of it. 

For example, as an INTP, I often use the combination SiNeTi, because I use information I stored with Si in order to generate new possiblities with Ne and then make a judgement with Ti. I don't think we can necessarily separate functions apart like we do. The only reason why loops actually become loops is not because the functions are isolated; it's because the relationship becomes an internal system between the functions so it appears as loop-like. In reality I do think loop-like behavior is a little bit more complex than the model we currently use but it's sufficient for our purposes. And I think loops are legit, personally.

Not only can I easily pinpoint a loop within myself, but I have a good understanding how the introverted loops at least work like. 

Because of the nature of NiFi, the INFP will become avoidant. This is because both functions are introverted to the INFP will in general interact less and less with the world as the loop continues. The INFP will also try to find meanings about what's good or bad, right and wrong in past events but since these events already occurred there's no answer. It can lead to a desire for the INFP to simply want to structure their memories more like Te users do and desire to become logical and cold as Fi is not capable to deal with the situation. 

A lot of Fi users in general seem to often be mistyped as INTPs in particular because might see themselves as emotionally cold since Fi doesn't necessarily induce empathy for example. As the INFP keeps focusing on what's right and wrong and good and bad in the past the INFP will begin to question his or her feelings since there is no answer to questions about the past, especially when it comes to Si values. The INFP will thus experience him- or herself like say, an INTP, because INFPs tend to repress their feelings this way. 

Furthermore, many tests are of course also poorly deviced and do not consider the actual nature of Jungian functions where orderly simply means J.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Interesting that you find question 2 boring. Is it just the picture itself or the task? I did specifically choose a picture with a lot of details in it to see your reaction. If you were to choose a picture of your choice when doing this task, would your reaction still be the same or similar?


The picture is boring because it's gray and the objects are all boring. Maybe I would have found it more interesting if it was in 



> *As for the feeling of competence:* have you considered it's because you might be in the in grip of inferior Fi or because you're in the grip of inferior Te? Both grips will result with a feeling of being incompetent and both will probably result with a somewhat similar behavior and attitudes. The REAL question is what motivates you. Maybe @_hornet_ could explain how inferior Te works for him in more detail?


That's what I'm confused about now. Fi or Te? 
What motivates me - I don't think I can give a proper answer to that. I have a lot of motivation to be by myself and think about things, how people work, how scenarios will play out, what I should be doing, how I can do it... A lot of times I am absently organizing my schedule in my head, as if telling it once to myself is not enough. I can't stop thinking about schedules until I translate it into action. There's always a need for action, but I am a huge procrastinator and am unable to do it until the last minute. I am a last minute sort of person - the sort who arrives "fashionably late" to parties (not that I go to many, lol). I do it so I don't waste any time getting ready early, arriving early and being bored. I find the unnecessary waiting a waste of time. (Whether or not I use that time productively) I always feel extremely proud when I actually stick to schedule, which is very rare. so long. 



> The ONLY other possibility I see if it's not ENTJ would be INFJ and the Fi is disguised as Fe which can happen if it's enneagram 4 we're talking about.


I've thought about it, but I always think about myself first. I can be selfless only when it comes to protecting people I love. Even then, I am very awkward when it comes to expressing my feelings. They usually emerge in outbursts which are of the inferior Fi sort, and often I feel later that I say too much. 



> As a last resort: how well do you recognize yourself in this description of writing styles and thinking modes?
> http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/110281-intp-intj-writing-styles.html


Whenever I write, I always write more than I expect to. Ideas flow only after I start writing. I always feel the need to say a lot, as if telling the reader - I want you to know I've thought through every possible scenario and am conveying a very informed opinion. In that sense I identify with the INTP style. I feel uncomfortable when I have to restrain my writing. It is always very organized though; multiple bullets are something I use almost every time. 



> And I want to point out one interesting tidbit of detail as well: you like to fill out questionnaires. Did you consider why you do?


I like talking about myself. I'm quite self-centred, even with friends, I always like to mostly talk about my personal feelings and situations I've been in. I don't know if my friends notice that, haha. Since I want to pinpoint my problem and am unable to do so myself, I'm filling out questionnaires. I find them fun because I...just do!


> EDIT @_Amaterasu_, ok, I am going to give you ANOTHER task. Fun right? :tongue: This time I am going to give you a task where you are to structure a text that is jumbled, unstructured and overall chaotic. The text lacks coherency, does not follow grammar conventions and overall structure of how a text should be like to make sense to the reader. The text in question is this one:
> 
> hi my name is mary and im 12 this year lol so it says i have to describe myself ok i guess i do???? i dunno if i got any hobbies at all lol i dont like to do much during my days its boring to be outside and see people i dont like people because they always tell me bad things. like yesterday i went to school it was boring we had to study geometry but i dont get it  countries in europe lol i know what uk is they took over the falkland islands???? i think so??? tomorrow write a letter to my best friend beause she moved to a different state i dont like it i want to see her lol how can i see her i asked mum if we could go see her but she said i have to wait until summer why do i have to wait till summer  i wanna see her now not when i finish school thats so boring schools so boring in general i hate school and teachers are so stupid. theres this maths teacher hes always so stuck up and all over himself thinks hes the smartest person in the world and once i asked for help but he never came to me  and then my friend had to explain and i failed my test because my friend isnt so good at maths lol
> 
> Would you find structuring this text funny or do you feel inclined to correct and structure the text to make it flow better, come off as more coherent and follow conventional grammar?


Assuming I don't actually have to do this right now, I have to say I would definitely want to do this. My first thought when I saw this task was to do it so it looks more organized and structured, and I find this fun to do. I find this writing immature and very stupid. I don't think I will like this girl very much. She seems a nice sort but rather stupid. How is this a description of herself? I certainly hope I wasn't like this when I was 12.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

hornet said:


> Inferior Te is when you can't be bothered to put all your plans into practice and then you feel really bad about it.


I do this! Some people tell me, "Wow, the way you talk is so beautiful, like you're going to accomplish all your life's goals in one day, but you never put anything into action! What is the point of talking then?

That question always makes me quiet. I want to tell them, "I need to solve this big puzzle that is me, and then I will be poised to take external action." but no one understands 
Maybe because it seems impractical to find your life's calling before you carry out everyday tasks; who knows how many years later I'll become a fully developed individual? It's like I want the future to unfold now, right now, exactly how I want it.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I really don't quite agree with this model as I think all the functions are slaves to the dominant no matter what, but that's my personal opinion of it.


Do you interpret Jung's theory (we'll use INFP again for an example) as in the aux Ne works for the dom Fi, while the "other weaker aux" (that others call the territary not called that by Jung, called a weaker aux by Jung) Si works for inferior Te? Jung is the foundation of this whole typology system, thus it is very important to discuss Jung's teachings. 

of course the dom function is ruler of the person's psyche as in Fi in INFP's. and of course all the other functions are lesser in strength than the dom to the person's psyche. A person cannot survive without thinking, feeling, intuiting and sensing, each person needs all those 4 cognitive thought processing function abilities. So, those 4 functions (2 perceiving - intuiting and sensing, and 2 judging - thinking and feeling) break down to introverted and extroverted functions each, making 8 different thought processing functions. So if a person is dom Fi like INFP, then they are automatically inferior Te, because the inferior is in opposition with the dom, in this case dom Fi is a judging introverted feeling function, so in opposition is a judging extroverted thinking function which is Te. And each needs an opposite type to feed it, Fi an introverted judging function needs Ne an extroverted perceiving function to feed Fi. Te an extraverted judging function needs Si an introverted perceiving function to feed it. 

Now you mentioned about Si as in memory. All introverted functions, Fi, Ti, Si, Ni are in fact memory, they are used through memory, they don't need current external experiencing to activate, unlike extroverted functions that activate upon current external experiencing. So, i'm an INFP, and you are an INTP, we both share Ne and Si in the same order. I know my Si is to no power of that of a dom Si user, and not as good as an aux Si user, i know mine is much weaker than a dom and weaker than an aux, but yes i use it, but not that great with it. Yes i use Te, but not that great with Te. i know i suck at Ti hands down. Se i'm not that good with but i use it. Ni i'm not that good with but i use it. Fe i'm not that good with but i use it. Ti i don't think i understand what Ti is really other than i don't understand it hardly. So all in all, me as an INFP, my main two functions in heavy use is Fi and Ne, Ne gathers info, Fi weighs and judges. And to a weaker level i use all the others, Ni, Fe, Si, Se, Te, but i really wonder about Ti, i just can't quite see Ti in me? i agree with the theory of "demonic/devilish" function, the shadow function of the inferior function. (which in your case as an INTP would be Fi, and honestly, by what i hear you speak about Fi, i don't really think you really grasp Fi that well imo, and in fact it is your demonic/devilish function as an INTP.

So in the case of eruption of inferior function, grip, stress, etc, Te rises up over Fi. So Te's helper is Si, so Te rises with Si and pushes Fi and Ne down. Te and Si take over but in a very irrational way, irrational useage of Te along with irrational useage of Si. For you as an INTP, that would be Fe rising up with Si and pushing Ti and Ne down, irrational useage of Fe and irrational useage of Si. 

So, can a person constantly live in this grip? Well, here's from my point of view from my experience through stressful times and situations which i've been through alot in my life of which i'm 48 now... i would say a person of any type when in the grip will display a neurotic/anxiety disorder behavior pattern, but they will still be their type, like me as an INFP will still be an INFP but displaying bouts of neurosis/anxiety disorders, i'm still an INFP, but i'm displaying bouts of an irrational ESTJ, but i'm still a Fi dom INFP, those bouts can only be temporary bursts, because Te cannot keep my Fi down, only for short moments, i'm an INFP and my Fi will rule most of the time, not my inferior Te. those are in bouts/spurts. 

Now, as for just having short episode eruption of inferior function but not being in "a grip", i think that happens to any type just about on a daily basis or so, maybe every couple days, maybe every week, maybe twice a day, etc, i think it's frequent for short eruptions to happen, it's called "someone pissing you off", which happens often in life within human interraction, it's unavoidable. the key is to learn how to get out of the episode quickly. how? by understanding your type, your strenghts, weaknesses, abilities, limitations, and understanding the type of the one pissing you off, or the types of the ones pissing you off, understanding is key. and then forgiving of course, can't conquer without forgiveness, forgiveness is the ultimate healing/mending.

And as far as mistyping goes, i think *a main problem solving technique lies within the demonic/devilish function. * it is the one that a type should not be able to understand much at all or use much at all.....

So what's Amaterasu's demonic/devilish function???..... i think if we figure that out, we'll be very close to typing her or finally be able to type her.

i think from months ago, i asked her by showing her the descriptions off of cognitiveprocesses.com and if my memory serves me right on this that in fact i did ask her, i think she responded with Si, which is the demonic of INTJ and INFJ's inferior Se. But, maybe at that time it was due to her mood then, so maybe now we can try that again and see which one she considers her demonic/devilish function. If she is a Te inferior, then it would be Ti.

*first edit was bold part to clarify better...

this second edit is to add this:*

i agree also with what Jung says about how to rehab a person from neurosis/anxiety disorder behavior, is to rehab them back into their true birth type that they are born with. People get neurosis/anxiety disorders because in childhood their parents did not nurture them into their birth type, they forced them to behave in ways contrary to their true type, thus they need rehabbing back into their true type. to use their skills and talents they are natural for to have self worth and feel good about themself, and not worry of any feelings of incompetence of their weaknesses. to love themself, feel worthy, feel useful, to feel peaceful and content and happy!


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

@Amaterasu

here's the 8 cog function descriptions off of cognitiveprocesses.com, i can't remember exactly if i asked you this before, i'm thinking i did, cause i used to regularly do this when trying to help type someone, so anyhow here they are. Which one do you *least* understand or relate to?


*Se - EXTROVERTED SENSING*

Experiencing and acting in the immediate context.

Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.

*Ti - INTROVERTED THINKING*

Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles.

Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed. 


*Fi - INTROVERTED FEELING*

Valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth.

It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.


*Si - INTROVERTED SENSING*

Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data.

Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.


*Ni - INTROVERTED INTUITING*

Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects.

Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.


*Te - EXTROVERTED THINKING*

Segmenting, organizing for efficiency, and systematizing.

Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives. 


*Ne – EXTRAVERTED INTUITING*

Interpreting situations and relationships and pickup meanings and interconnections to other contexts.

Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.


*Fe - EXTRAVERTED FEELING*

Connecting and considering others and the group.

The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@Dreamer777 

I don't think I can give an exact answer to this question because I am not sure enough of my mental makeup to say which one I prefer or don't prefer. Like I mentioned earlier, I tend to adopt descriptions into my behavior. *If all of you tell me with certainty that I am an INFP, I will act like that. If you say ENTJ, I will act like one.* It's really silly that I allow type to influence my behavior, but I can't help it.

Also, for reference, I usually get Melancholy as the highest in the temperament test.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> @_Dreamer777_
> 
> I don't think I can give an exact answer to this question because I am not sure enough of my mental makeup to say which one I prefer or don't prefer. Like I mentioned earlier, I tend to adopt descriptions into my behavior. *If all of you tell me with certainty that I am an INFP, I will act like that. If you say ENTJ, I will act like one.* It's really silly that I allow type to influence my behavior, but I can't help it.


I'm like that as well...
Super annoying since people don't always seem to "get" it.

I'm an INFP if you are


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> @_Dreamer777_
> 
> I don't think I can give an exact answer to this question because I am not sure enough of my mental makeup to say which one I prefer or don't prefer. Like I mentioned earlier, I tend to adopt descriptions into my behavior. *If all of you tell me with certainty that I am an INFP, I will act like that. If you say ENTJ, I will act like one.* It's really silly that I allow type to influence my behavior, but I can't help it.
> 
> Also, for reference, I usually get Melancholy as the highest in the temperament test.


Anyway Ama, based on your response on the final task I gave you about organizing and sorting out the text sample I provided (which was made up by the way), I would say that Te is actually quite natural for you to use and you like to use Te and you gain energy from it. As was pointed out by @hornet, organization does not come naturally for Fi doms and they do not like organize unless they absolutely must. I don't see this tendency in you. You actually seem to like organize, especially when it comes to small tasks like these. 

The reason why I've been giving you these various tasks to perform is to discern what functions you prefer to use based on whether it's fun or not to use them. I can for instance quite easily rule out Se now from your stack because you don't even think describing pictures is fun. You went complete tl;dr on it right away. 

As I previously mentioned, Ne is also most likely not something you like to use based on the task I provided meant to test Ne (sentence generation), indicating it is most likely not in an aux or dom position. Ni is the only function I can't come up a task for you test out lol. But all right, let's try this out anyway.

Your task is to look into what you think the meaning is between two seemingly unrelated events. These events are described as followed:

1. You are walking down the street one morning and aren't paying much attention to your surroundings. Suddenly you see a 100 dollar banknote on the pavement. No one seems to have noticed.

2. Later that day you speak to a friend who is quite upset because she seems to have lost a 100 dollar banknote earlier this morning and she doesn't know where she dropped it. 

What is your reaction to this?


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> @_Dreamer777_
> 
> I don't think I can give an exact answer to this question because I am not sure enough of my mental makeup to say which one I prefer or don't prefer. Like I mentioned earlier, I tend to adopt descriptions into my behavior. *If all of you tell me with certainty that I am an INFP, I will act like that. If you say ENTJ, I will act like one.* It's really silly that I allow type to influence my behavior, but I can't help it.
> 
> Also, for reference, I usually get Melancholy as the highest in the temperament test.


Quite the chameleon are we? Tell me, why do you take on the traits of the type we give you? :wink:


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> @Dreamer777
> 
> I don't think I can give an exact answer to this question because I am not sure enough of my mental makeup to say which one I prefer or don't prefer. Like I mentioned earlier, I tend to adopt descriptions into my behavior. *If all of you tell me with certainty that I am an INFP, I will act like that. If you say ENTJ, I will act like one.* It's really silly that I allow type to influence my behavior, but I can't help it.
> 
> Also, for reference, I usually get Melancholy as the highest in the temperament test.


well, try it this way, which one do you LEAST understand what it means?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> well, i'm a 48yr old Fi dom INFP, lived under multiple stressful life experiences, i think i would have had every loop and grip there could be ever to have, and i have never once wanted to discard my feelings, as i mentioned and explained in my above post, so i can't agree with you on that, sorry. Where did you get that info on INFP's on Si Fi loops, i would like to read that?


Well, I am younger than you, but can relate to that (discard feeling), when I was younger. First off, it's not clear to me if you refer to feelings as 'emotion' or 'values'. As you may have experienced, your values have changed over time. And when you are young, you probably had a lot of 'feelings', and undoubtedly 'mixed feelings', and a lot of voices 'in your head', telling you what you should do. Some of that may be from early childhood, or from how you were raised, or from your peer-group. Some may be 'hunches', some may seem 'common sense' or 'logical/sensible'. Many of those feelings, probably most of them, you don't even know where it's coming from. It just doesn't seem 'right'. Some things seemed so clear the day before, but turned out to be a huge disappointment or even aversive, or your values were naiveté. 

That's adolescence. As you get older and more 'healthy' you learn to make distinction, what it is what others want and what you really want. It's not that simple. Because you are happy when you're (b/g)friend is happy and when they (all who(?) matter to you) like you. But does that mean that what you think or feel is less important? Where do you draw the line, and at what cost? At the same time it is a process of accepting yourself as you are, and hopefully your social relations to accept you as you are. (and of course choice of education/work etc. ) 

Maybe the values and feelings haven't changed so much since your childhood, but for me it was quite a journey. We can all debate about cognitive functions, but if you are insecure attached to your environment, with a negative view of yourself, in terms of self-efficacy, self-esteem, with a disconnect (Fi) with, and a low expectancy of the world at large, you just turn inward, locked in yourself or even become too much preoccupied with yourself. You use T(e) (and Ni) to judge from a distance, _in stead of experience_ (Ne), because you anticipate by mostly trying to _avoid _unease/danger. In that sense I can relate somewhat to @_Amaterasu_ , and I'm sure eventually she'll be fine. (cognitive functions more in balance, Fi rooted, etc.)



Dreamer777 said:


> Just to let you know, if you asked me these questions as a dom Fi INFP, it wouldn't appeal to me to want to spend my time answering them, it doesn't appeal to my Ne to answer them, it's not things my Ne would be interested in spending time doing, so i would find it boring and frustrating to have to answer them. Just letting you know how i feel about it as a dom Fi INFP from my perspective in case you are interested in my dom Fi INFP perspective?


I agree with that. =)


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't know. This is an interesting thread and it could all go either way, or maybe an altogether different way, but to me it sounds a bit more like natural Te-dom-ness is trying to assert itself than Fi-dom is really in its rightful place. I mean, isn't it possible that the whole problem is that Fi is sort of charge right now, but she doesn't feel like herself in her current state? Like the Fi is unruly, it keeps crashing in and ruining her Te plans. She accepts it as part of the way she is (and it is, right now), but maybe to grow and stabilize it needs to yield to her more structured side? She says she feels good when she succeeds in sticking to a schedule.



> *A lot of times I am absently organizing my schedule in my head, as if telling it once to myself is not enough. I can't stop thinking about schedules until I translate it into action. There's always a need for action*, but I am a huge procrastinator and am unable to do it until the last minute. I am a last minute sort of person - the sort who arrives "fashionably late" to parties (not that I go to many, lol). I do it so I don't waste any time getting ready early, arriving early and being bored. I find the unnecessary waiting a waste of time. (Whether or not I use that time productively) I always feel extremely proud when I actually stick to schedule, which is very rare.



To feel like waiting is a waste of time is more ExTJ-ish than IxFP-ish, isn't it? Procrastination certainly isn't, but the first few things she says in this paragraph are very Te, and *since she says this is what her mind does absently when she's not even trying, it makes me think she's a Te-dom.* (I swear my ESTJ mother's mind organizes in her sleep! It certainly does little else while she's awake.) And Te-doms, not Fi-doms, are people of action. Her earlier comment that she should be the one in authority struck me as very odd for a true Fi-dom. I know many of them who want to be organized and reliable, but none who who really want to be in charge of anyone else. I don't know. I'm not sure. I suppose I'm just devil's-advocating for ENTJ right now, because I see so many signs of real Te-dominance that I'm really wary of the possibility of true Fi-dominance. (And ENTJ because, for one thing, she hates repetitive work, as ENTJs do, but ESTJs don't necessarily mind.)

@_Amaterasu_, what were you like as a child? Were you shy? Bossy? Imaginative? Realistic? Did you make things happen or did you walk through your world with your head in the clouds?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I'm like that as well...
> Super annoying since people don't always seem to "get" it.


Oh thank goodness, and here I thought only I did that 
Do you know why it happens?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> I don't know. This is an interesting thread and it could all go either way, or maybe an altogether different way, but to me it sounds a bit more like natural Te-dom-ness is trying to assert itself than Fi-dom is really in its rightful place. I mean, isn't it possible that the whole problem is that Fi is sort of charge right now, but she doesn't feel like herself in her current state? Like the Fi is unruly, it keeps crashing in and ruining her Te plans. She accepts it as part of the way she is (and it is, right now), but maybe to grow and stabilize it needs to yield to her more structured side? She says she feels good when she succeeds in sticking to a schedule.
> 
> To feel like waiting is a waste of time is more ExTJ-ish than IxFP-ish, isn't it? Procrastination certainly isn't, but the first few things she says in this paragraph are very Te, and *since she says this is what her mind does absently when she's not even trying, it makes me think she's a Te-dom.* (I swear my ESTJ mother's mind organizes in her sleep! It certainly does little else while she's awake.) And Te-doms, not Fi-doms, are people of action. Her earlier comment that she should be the one in authority struck me as very odd for a true Fi-dom. I know many of them who want to be organized and reliable, but none who who really want to be in charge of anyone else. I don't know. I'm not sure. I suppose I'm just devil's-advocating for ENTJ right now, because I see so many signs of real Te-dominance that I'm really wary of the possibility of true Fi-dominance. (And ENTJ because, for one thing, she hates repetitive work, as ENTJs do, but ESTJs don't necessarily mind.)
> 
> @_Amaterasu_, what were you like as a child? Were you shy? Bossy? Imaginative? Realistic? Did you make things happen or did you walk through your world with your head in the clouds?


When I was a child, I was very shy, yes. I cried a lot if I had to be with people I didn't know. I was the sort of kid who is really reserved at first, but then when I got to know the person, I'd be happy and trust them. I was intelligent and quick to learn, and asked a lot of big questions. I was creative and used to enjoy making up imaginary worlds. I was also a lot more responsible than I am now  A bit gullible though, I used to cry to my mom if my friends tricked me. I never did stuff like that and so found it confusing.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> well, try it this way, which one do you LEAST understand what it means?


I've never fully understood Ti... I think. Ni is also quite complex.

I don't know. This is a vague question. Maybe it's because I like explanations to be in simple, clear terms, and the description for Ti almost always is as convoluted and complex as the function itself.
Sometimes I think I try to understand things way too much.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Anyway Ama, based on your response on the final task I gave you about organizing and sorting out the text sample I provided (which was made up by the way), I would say that Te is actually quite natural for you to use and you like to use Te and you gain energy from it. As was pointed out by @_hornet_, organization does not come naturally for Fi doms and they do not like organize unless they absolutely must. I don't see this tendency in you. You actually seem to like organize, especially when it comes to small tasks like these.


That was a fun task indeed, but I'm not that organized when it comes to my environment. If I sleep in a bed, in the morning, I won't feel like making the bed because I don't need to that much, until perhaps at night because I can't sleep in an unmade bed. If I need to organize my books, I won't do until I absolutely have to or I'm so bored that I actually find myself starting sorting them out.

But when I start organizing, I can't stop until everything is absolutely perfect. I do it with a fervor when I manage to start.



> Your task is to look into what you think the meaning is between two seemingly unrelated events. These events are described as followed:
> 
> 1. You are walking down the street one morning and aren't paying much attention to your surroundings. Suddenly you see a 100 dollar banknote on the pavement. No one seems to have noticed.
> 
> ...


If I see such a banknote, I will immediately hand it over to an authority, like the police or something. If I'm not able to, I will donate it somewhere, because I would obviously not want to keep it for myself and I can't ask around if anyone's lost it, who knows who could have lost it anyway?

Assuming I have handed it over to the police, I will ask my friend to go and ask the police because I had given such a banknote to them.

Assuming I have donated it, I will feel a bit uncomfortable and tell her, "Oh well, maybe someone else needed it more than you did. It probably found its way into the hands of someone who needs it, don't worry. But why don't you go and ask the police if they can help you or something?"

Either way I'd initially wonder if she was saying the truth about losing a banknote and I would ask her where she was walking, when she noticed the banknote missing, etc., to ascertain if it was the same one I saw on the street.

I don't quite understand what you mean by find the meaning between these unrelated events. They seem quite related to me...


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> I've never fully understood Ti... I think. Ni is also quite complex.
> 
> I don't know. This is a vague question. Maybe it's because I like explanations to be in simple, clear terms, and the description for Ti almost always is as convoluted and complex as the function itself.
> Sometimes I think I try to understand things way too much.


hmmm..... that's interesting what you say about Ti and Ni, i feel the same way as an INFP, Ti is the least one i understand, and it is the devilish function of the INFP (and ISFP), and Ni i understand to a point and use it a bit, but the fullness of Ni especially as in Ni dom blows my mind with it's complexities and abilities, i admire it soooooooooooo much i wish i had it, but i don't fully grasp it, but i do grasp and use it a bit, but forget Ti, Ti i do not grasp nor use at all really. An ISFP uses Ni, so they have alot in common that way with dom Ni users, especially ISFP and INFJ get along really well. So, by going by that alone what you responded about Ti and Ni would really be fitting with INFP's?

so do you feel at home thinking of yourself as an INFP? does it make you feel relaxed and relieved? and btw, just to comment on this, i wish i could keep schedules, it's not that i don't want to, yes i do, yes i want to achieve my goals and ideas, and not procrastinate, but it's very hard to stay on course as a Ne dom or Ne aux (xxxP's) as we tend to veer off course rather than keep on course. Like we enjoy more the generating of possibilities and ideas of great goals rather than implementing them and carrying them through. However Ne in territary and inferior are xxxJ's, and they carry through their goals. So in reverse i'm thinking ISFP's with territary Ni even though they have Ni, but because it's territary making them xxxP's, they don't carry through either. But yeah, it's frustrating to me that i can hardly stay on course with goals (and schedules)...


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> Quite the chameleon are we? Tell me, why do you take on the traits of the type we give you? :wink:


I don't know...maybe it's because I'm always trying to find out what my problem is and which of my behavior is justified and which isn't, so a type given to me helps me do all that rationalizing easily because I know what is supposed to be natural and what is supposed to be unnatural.

Doing that feels really dumb, though. I wish I didn't need so many definitions to confuse myself with.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Well, I am younger than you, but can relate to that (discard feeling), when I was younger. First off, it's not clear to me if you refer to feelings as 'emotion' or 'values'. As you may have experienced, your values have changed over time. And when you are young, you probably had a lot of 'feelings', and undoubtedly 'mixed feelings', and a lot of voices 'in your head', telling you what you should do. Some of that may be from early childhood, or from how you were raised, or from your peer-group. Some may be 'hunches', some may seem 'common sense' or 'logical/sensible'. Many of those feelings, probably most of them, you don't even know where it's coming from. It just doesn't seem 'right'. Some things seemed so clear the day before, but turned out to be a huge disappointment or even aversive, or your values were naiveté.
> 
> That's adolescence. As you get older and more 'healthy' you learn to make distinction, what it is what others want and what you really want. It's not that simple. Because you are happy when you're (b/g)friend is happy and when they (all who(?) matter to you) like you. But does that mean that what you think or feel is less important? Where do you draw the line, and at what cost? At the same time it is a process of accepting yourself as you are, and hopefully your social relations to accept you as you are. (and of course choice of education/work etc. )
> 
> ...


well, values and feelings in a Fi dom cannot be separated, because the point is that Fi doms judge life through their feelings, that's the whole point of being a Fi dom. As for values changing from childhood throughout the journey of life and through adulthood, i'm not sure my values really changed to be honest. values as honesty, respect, fairness, justice, kindness, etc. what i find as far as changes in understanding life, is that learning about the different personality types helps to understand people's behavior and my own as well, and understand what their strenghts and weaknesses are, and my own as well, so with that greater understanding and knowledge helps me to cope better with people, but my values don't change. And things like people going through anxiety disorders, etc, to learn and understand more about that too helps me to understand and cope better with people too but it doesn't change my values. I don't know if that's the answer you were hoping to hear from me, but that's how i'm drawn to answer you on that? if there is anything else you would like me to answer on, please feel free to ask? i love discussing all this personality type stuff, i love to learn. :happy:


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

It's interesting to me you would immediately hand over the banknote to an authority. I think an INFP would tuck it away, dream up a hundred different stories of who lost it and why, maybe obsess a little bit about what she should do with it, or maybe not even give it much thought. I think only an ExTJ would immediately want to hand it over to an authority or donate it, to put everything in right order.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> hmmm..... that's interesting what you say about Ti and Ni, i feel the same way as an INFP, Ti is the least one i understand, and it is the devilish function of the INFP (and ISFP), and Ni i understand to a point and use it a bit, but the fullness of Ni especially as in Ni dom blows my mind with it's complexities and abilities, i admire it soooooooooooo much i wish i had it, but i don't fully grasp it, but i do grasp and use it a bit, but forget Ti, Ti i do not grasp nor use at all really. An ISFP uses Ni, so they have alot in common that way with dom Ni users, especially ISFP and INFJ get along really well. So, by going by that alone what you responded about Ti and Ni would really be fitting with INFP's?
> 
> so do you feel at home thinking of yourself as an INFP? does it make you feel relaxed and relieved? and btw, just to comment on this, i wish i could keep schedules, it's not that i don't want to, yes i do, yes i want to achieve my goals and ideas, and not procrastinate, but it's very hard to stay on course as a Ne dom or Ne aux (xxxP's) as we tend to veer off course rather than keep on course. Like we enjoy more the generating of possibilities and ideas of great goals rather than implementing them and carrying them through. However Ne in territary and inferior are xxxJ's, and they carry through their goals. So in reverse i'm thinking ISFP's with territary Ni even though they have Ni, but because it's territary making them xxxP's, they don't carry through either. But yeah, it's frustrating to me that i can hardly stay on course with goals (and schedules)...


Yes I admire Ni so much too! It sounds so magical.

Um well I don't quite know. I don't even know what my true feelings are anymore. I'm sorry I say "I don't know" so many times, I'm just so confused these days and it feels horrible, like a thick fog is in my brain and I can't wave it away.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> It's interesting to me you would immediately hand over the banknote to an authority. I think an INFP would tuck it away, dream up a hundred different stories of who lost it and why, maybe obsess a little bit about what she should do with it, or maybe not even give it much thought. I think only an ExTJ would immediately want to hand it over to an authority or donate it, to put everything in right order.


O.O really? 

But wouldn't an INFP also think, according to their values, it rightfully belongs to someone else and they shouldn't keep it?


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> Yes I admire Ni so much too! It sounds so magical.
> 
> Um well I don't quite know. I don't even know what my true feelings are anymore. I'm sorry I say "I don't know" so many times, I'm just so confused these days and it feels horrible, like a thick fog is in my brain and I can't wave it away.


Well, you did mention about being in some situation that you know is causing you the distress and i think you said if i recall correctly that you know what you have to do to solve it? So i wish you a speedy and peaceful resolve whatever it is, you know what you have to do, so you'll have to do it to get your peace of mind back, as hard as it may be to do, but you know you have to do it for your own sanity and peace. i wish you success with that. *hugs* :happy:


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> It's interesting to me you would immediately hand over the banknote to an authority. I think an INFP would tuck it away, dream up a hundred different stories of who lost it and why, maybe obsess a little bit about what she should do with it, or maybe not even give it much thought. I think only an ExTJ would immediately want to hand it over to an authority or donate it, to put everything in right order.


first off is the banknote cash or a bank promisary note made out to someone? if it's cash, i think a younger INFP would be inclined to turn it in not realizing the police will spend it or donate it, cause no one can prove they lost it i don't think, unless they magically had the serial number written down which i doubt, so i could see a younger INFP turning it in. As for an older INFP realizing what the police would do as mentioned above, they wouldn't turn it in, they would either donate it or spend or save it. now if later on a friend is upset who lost the same amount, and the INFP hasn't spent or donated it yet, they would turn it over to the friend and say here, whether it's yours or not, you deserve it cause you lost the same amount, and besides it was never mine to start with. i could see myself donating it, or spending it, or saving it, but knowing myself, i would definately want to donate at least a portion of it. and if i had already gotten rid of it by donating or spending before the friend told me what happened, i would still try to give back some money to my friend from other money i have, even if i donated the whole thing, i would go into my own money and give my friend some at least if i could not afford to give the full $100 cause i would feel sorry for my friend and would feel i must try to help give back to my friend at least some of what they lost. but as for still having the $100 in my possession when the friend tells me what happened before they found out that i found the same amount, definately i would hand over the full $100 to the friend without hesitation.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Mentioning @_MegaTuxRacer_ as I've heard he has good insights. If he doesn't mind, of course.

edit: and @Eric B and @LiquidLight if they are okay with helping me out as well.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> That was a fun task indeed, but I'm not that organized when it comes to my environment. If I sleep in a bed, in the morning, I won't feel like making the bed because I don't need to that much, until perhaps at night because I can't sleep in an unmade bed. If I need to organize my books, I won't do until I absolutely have to or I'm so bored that I actually find myself starting sorting them out.
> 
> But when I start organizing, I can't stop until everything is absolutely perfect. I do it with a fervor when I manage to start.
> 
> ...


Hahaha. Yes, I'm fairly certain you're Ni dom if you can't even see how they are NOT related! And I also see a lot of Te logic in here. Maybe INTJ is the better type for you after all. @FacelessBeauty what do you think of this response?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> Oh thank goodness, and here I thought only I did that
> Do you know why it happens?


I personally think it has to do with not wanting to be viewed as stuck up and rude by fighting against what others believe.
That's at least my latest theory, but I have no idea really, just theories.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Hahaha. Yes, I'm fairly certain you're Ni dom if you can't even see how they are NOT related! And I also see a lot of Te logic in here. Maybe INTJ is the better type for you after all. @_FacelessBeauty_ what do you think of this response?


I knew you would say what you did...

...but INTJ? 
I'm just confused because the last time I thought I was an INTJ, I got told I was an INFP after all, and I found I could quite relate to the description of the creative, emotional individual. Then someone I knew told me I was perhaps likelier to be an extrovert who is just a bit at odds with most people.

So I just really feel like I'm at a fork in the road and there's people calling me from both sides and I don't know where to go.

I'm definitely not as detached as most INTJs on here, lack any sarcastic humor they possess, and I feel like an outcast in the INTJ forum.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> I knew you would say what you did...
> 
> ...but INTJ?
> I'm just confused because the last time I thought I was an INTJ, I got told I was an INFP after all, and I found I could quite relate to the description of the creative, emotional individual. Then someone I knew told me I was perhaps likelier to be an extrovert who is just a bit at odds with most people.
> ...


Putting it this way, I only see two possibiliites for you right now: INTJ and ENTJ. Ni is very high up in you and you seem to despise using Se at all. Fi is either tertiary or inferior and this is why you are looping. Te I see either being dominant or aux because you really do use Te a lot more than a non-Te user would, and _it comes naturally_. Do note that Te users do not necessarily have to be super-extreme in how they order IRL. I'd say it largely depends on the context, but I think Fe users might in fact be more OCD-ish when it comes to structural organization such as cleaning than Te users would, for the simple reason that they derive their desire to be clean from external values. An ENFJ guy I know is very much OCD cleanly-clean kind of person, and same kind of applies to my grandmother if you compare to the values she was raised with. 

You might identify with the INFP profile insofar that they are intuitive Fi doms, which at least describes you better currently than a sensing Fi dom. Again however, I see no Ne in you. Ne is not something you would normally use. It's not just based on the tasks I've given to you, it's based on your overall demeanor and attitude. You don't write like Ne users do.

Which clip do you think is more funny?











And no, the humor used here might overlap but there is a subtle difference.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> I knew you would say what you did...
> 
> ...but INTJ?
> I'm just confused because the last time I thought I was an INTJ, I got told I was an INFP after all, and I found I could quite relate to the description of the creative, emotional individual. Then someone I knew told me I was perhaps likelier to be an extrovert who is just a bit at odds with most people.
> ...


Well, @Ludi, @LiquidLight (I just did the mention because it's rude to talk behind peoples' backs) and quite a lot of others were completely sure that I was INFJ and especially that I was Ni dom.

I still think that you're INFP. :happy: 

For the record @LeaT, I can't see how those events aren't related either.
Tho I'd probably have taken it for myself and waited some time to see if someone misses it.
If then I hear a friend say they lost that exact amount I'd assume that it was theirs.
Then either A. I'd give it to them and wonder if they were lying
Or B. I'd play along and feel sorry for them (without giving them the money I found).

I would most of the times act after A tho, with the suspicion before or after I gave them the banknote. I'd give them some questions if I was suspicious surrounding where they lost it or asking them to try to remember where they've been around the time they lost the banknote.

Ne + Si connects dots quite well.
It would go something like this...
"I've seen and taken a banknote with that exact amount" - That's when Si kicks in.
"Maybe it's theirs?" - Ne
"I should probably give it to them" - Fi
And not to forget that the entire conversation with the friend is Te trying to understand.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Well, @_Ludi_, @_LiquidLight_ (I just did the mention because it's rude to talk behind peoples' backs) and quite a lot of others were completely sure that I was INFJ and especially that I was Ni dom.
> 
> I still think that you're INFP. :happy:
> 
> ...


I understand your reasoning, but the point was to weed out _her_ reasoning. Look at how she responds. Her immediate reaction is to give the money to the authority. Had it been me, I would probably have stood there for a while, thinking about why there is a 100 dollar banknote on the ground and probably kept it for myself if I couldn't see anyone in the vincinity asking for a lost banknote or looking for something in general (Si). I would also reason that would I for some reason somehow run into this person (Ne possibilities), I would give the note back to that person. 

My point is, she didn't generate possibilities trying to connect events until afterwards. That's Ni. Ne works the other way around. The's also a reason here that she could actually see both events before she went on answering the question. She didn't take the logical shortcut Ne would.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Putting it this way, I only see two possibiliites for you right now: INTJ and ENTJ. Ni is very high up in you and you seem to despise using Se at all. Fi is either tertiary or inferior and this is why you are looping. Te I see either being dominant or aux because you really do use Te a lot more than a non-Te user would, and _it comes naturally_. Do note that Te users do not necessarily have to be super-extreme in how they order IRL. I'd say it largely depends on the context, but I think Fe users might in fact be more OCD-ish when it comes to structural organization such as cleaning than Te users would, for the simple reason that they derive their desire to be clean from external values. An ENFJ guy I know is very much OCD cleanly-clean kind of person, and same kind of applies to my grandmother if you compare to the values she was raised with.
> 
> You might identify with the INFP profile insofar that they are intuitive Fi doms, which at least describes you better currently than a sensing Fi dom. Again however, I see no Ne in you. Ne is not something you would normally use. It's not just based on the tasks I've given to you, it's based on your overall demeanor and attitude. You don't write like Ne users do.
> 
> ...


Well...
I know an OCD-ish ENFJ too.

I identify with the INFP child profile too, but is that relevant? 
Someone told me some months ago (I think it was @Ace Face) that I could be an ENTJ.

I think both the clips are weird and disgusting, not something I would call funny. They're both quite over-the-top, like whoever made them was trying too hard to be funny or something. I don't like stuff like this.
Do I really have to choose, though?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I understand your reasoning, but the point was to weed out _her_ reasoning. Look at how she responds. Her immediate reaction is to give the money to the authority. Had it been me, I would probably have stood there for a while, thinking about why there is a 100 dollar banknote on the ground and probably kept it for myself if I couldn't see anyone in the vincinity asking for a lost banknote or looking for something in general (Si). I would also reason that would I for some reason somehow run into this person (Ne possibilities), I would give the note back to that person.
> 
> My point is, she didn't generate possibilities trying to connect events until afterwards. That's Ni. Ne works the other way around. The's also a reason here that she could actually see both events before she went on answering the question. She didn't take the logical shortcut Ne would.


I see...
But I'd like to know her explanation of why she would do it like that.
It could be heavy Si tho to seek out authority, which would explain why the generating of ideas comes later. (since Ne would be less preferred).
Or maybe it's Ni.

Could also be Fi + Si simply taking the value road of what she's told that she should do.
I find the example of going to the store quite effective.

When asked to buy something at a store, the SJs will most of the times go in and get what they've been told to get and then go out.
SPs and NJs however (as an example) will start to go around and getting stuff they weren't told to get after a while or directly.
However, NPs are more likely to do what the SJs do and simply get what we've been told to get and then leave.
(Se in the SPs and NJs catches things in the moment and Si in NPs and SJs keeps us to the objective)

And in both the examples, an NFP can do what they've been told and go to authority without putting a thought on it because they've been told that it's right/what they should do and later start thinking about it or just go to the store and get what they've been told to get and then go home from the store.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I see...
> But I'd like to know her explanation of why she would do it like that.
> It could be heavy Si tho to seek out authority, which would explain why the generating of ideas comes later. (since Ne would be less preferred).
> Or maybe it's Ni.
> ...


My explanation. Okay, well, that just seems like one of the only possibilities here. I could never keep that banknote to myself. It's not mine. But I can't just leave it there when I can do something about the situation. So I give it to someone I hope is authorized to handle it. Someone I know donates money if they can't hand it over to an authority, and I found that a good idea. While approaching the authority, though, I'd wonder if they would actually find the person whose money it is, and I might just hesitate, but I'd give it anyway. I did my job, and that's that. 

If I was asked to buy something at a store, I would tell the asker to go do it themselves :tongue:

edit: Just talked to someone who thinks I am too argumentative and act like I know everything. I do find I say "I know" a lot.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> My explanation. Okay, well, that just seems like one of the only possibilities here. I could never keep that banknote to myself. It's not mine. But I can't just leave it there when I can do something about the situation. So I give it to someone I hope is authorized to handle it. Someone I know donates money if they can't hand it over to an authority, and I found that a good idea. While approaching the authority, though, I'd wonder if they would actually find the person whose money it is, and I might just hesitate, but I'd give it anyway. I did my job, and that's that.
> 
> If I was asked to buy something at a store, I would tell the asker to go do it themselves :tongue:
> 
> edit: Just talked to someone who thinks I am too argumentative and act like I know everything. I do find I say "I know" a lot.


INFPs are really really argumentative, but not "controlling"

Here's a list of the different types and their interaction styles:

Interaction StyleCatalyst (NF)Theorist (NT)Stabilizer (SJ)Improviser (SP)In Charge (Choleric)Envisioner
Mentor (ENFJ)Strategist
Mobilizer (ENTJ)Implementor
Supervisor (ESTJ)Promoter
Executor (ESTP)Chart the Course (Melancholic)Foreseer
Developer (INFJ)Conceptualizer
Director (INTJ)Planner
Inspector (ISTJ)Analyzer
Operator (ISTP)Get Things Going (Sanguine)Discoverer
Advocate (ENFP)Explorer
Inventor (ENTP)Facilitator
Caretaker (ESFJ)Motivator
Presenter (ESFP)Behind the Scenes (Phlegmatic)Harmonizer
Clarifier (INFP)Designer
Theorizer (INTP)Protector
Supporter (ISFJ)Composer
Producer (ISFP)

*Initiators*: ENTJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ENFJ (Extraverted and Directive)
*Coworkers*: ENTP, ESFJ, ESFP, ENFP (Extraverted and Informative)
*Contenders*: INTJ, ISTJ, ISTP, INFJ (Introverted and Directive)
*Responders*: INTP, ISFJ, ISFP, INFP (Introverted and Informative)

You can see the chart here (or just click the attached thumbnail): File:Interaction Styles.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The full "article" about the interaction styles is here: Interaction Styles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a long article about it on a site dedicated to show the difference between INFP and INFJ: INFJ or INFP? a closer look

Even if IFPs are both responding and informing, then we can stop being like that when our Fi feels threatened or when a situation demands it.
What style do you agree with the most?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> INFPs are really really argumentative, but not "controlling"
> 
> Here's a list of the different types and their interaction styles:
> 
> ...


I am quite sure I use the directing style of communication. Often I come off as harsher than I mean to be, as people tell me. I also think I am the responding sort.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

I just glanced through the last two pages, and will have to go back over more of the thread later.

But from what I've seen; you're indentifying with "directive" and "responding" (introvert), and someone said you seemed Ni dominant, and suggested INTJ, so you might look at that. Also mentioned was something about being seen as "argumentative" or "controlling", and while type (MBTI and Keirsey) profiles often don't mention this aspect of the temperament, that sounds like NT. (An INFP's argumentativeness will be more reactive, as was said, but they wouldn't normally be seen this way, because they basically want peace).

If you're INTJ, they you would have tertiary Fi, and combined with the dominant iNtuition, might look like an INFP in some ways. Especially as a female. Female tertiary Feeling is usually very strong or apparent.

You could also look at where you fall here (start with the five "singular" temperaments before trying all 17; the other 12 are just variations):
Temperament Reports for the Aspect of Inclusion (Corresponds to Interaction style)
Temperament Interpretation for the Aspect of CONTROL (Corresponds most closely to Keirsey group)

As a shortcut, look particularly at Melancholy in the first area, and Choleric in the second.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> I am quite sure I use the directing style of communication. Often I come off as harsher than I mean to be, as people tell me. I also think I am the responding sort.


It doesn't have to do with others' opinion of you really, more what you can agree that you actually do.
The directing communication style uses comments like "Sit down", "Put it over there", "Clean your room".

The informing communication style uses comments like "I don't have any money", "That music is so loud", "I'm not feeling good".

If you are directing and responding, you are likely: INTJ, ISTJ, ISTP or INFJ.

Notice how the way I write isn't actually directing you, but rather just informing you.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Hahaha. Yes, I'm fairly certain you're Ni dom if you can't even see how they are NOT related! And I also see a lot of Te logic in here. Maybe INTJ is the better type for you after all. @_FacelessBeauty_ what do you think of this response?


She just might have more Fi than I do Lea. 
But yes. INTJ is highly likely.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> Well...
> I know an OCD-ish ENFJ too.
> 
> I identify with the INFP child profile too, but is that relevant?
> ...


No. There was no right or wrong answer to them. I am trying to figure out how you work by making you engage in various life situations and study how you think and react to them. It's more natural than a normal questionnaire which we can safely say at this point does not say much.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> It doesn't have to do with others' opinion of you really, more what you can agree that you actually do.
> The directing communication style uses comments like "Sit down", "Put it over there", "Clean your room".
> 
> The informing communication style uses comments like "I don't have any money", "That music is so loud", "I'm not feeling good".
> ...


Oh yes, I know, but I think enneagram can confuse those things too.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Eric B said:


> I just glanced through the last two pages, and will have to go back over more of the thread later.
> 
> But from what I've seen; you're indentifying with "directive" and "responding" (introvert), and someone said you seemed Ni dominant, and suggested INTJ, so you might look at that. Also mentioned was something about being seen as "argumentative" or "controlling", and while type (MBTI and Keirsey) profiles often don't mention this aspect of the temperament, that sounds like NT. (An INFP's argumentativeness will be more reactive, as was said, but they wouldn't normally be seen this way, because they basically want peace).
> 
> ...


I did the shortcut 
Melancholy in the first area (Inclusion) makes sense. But in the second area (Control), Choleric doesn't seem quite like me. I am more insecure. 

In a group situation, I like to be seen as the different thinker, and being seen as good in debate and argument feels quite good.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> No. There was no right or wrong answer to them. I am trying to figure out how you work by making you engage in various life situations and study how you think and react to them. It's more natural than a normal questionnaire which we can safely say at this point does not say much.


So...would you still say I am an NTJ, or would you like to engage me in more such life situations? I personally find these tasks lots of fun


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

@Amateraso What were you like as a child?


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> I'm definitely not as detached as most INTJs on here, lack any sarcastic humor they possess, and I feel like an outcast in the INTJ forum.


You could be an INTJ with either well-developed or looping tertiary Fi. (But your Te is strong so maybe Fi is not even looping, maybe it's just strong.) Either way, your use of Fi is much stronger than a typical INTJ, at least a typical young, immature INTJ. I mistyped for a long time although I had so many signs of ISTP, because I didn't relate so well to the ISTPs here in their forum. Turns out, I use Ni (and even Fe) more than the typical immature ISTP: I don't live my whole life out of Ti-Se. You don't live your whole life out of Ni-Te, you use your Fi and it makes you very different than INTJs who don't. (If you are indeed an INTJ. Which sounds like a strong possibility.) By the way, an INTJ with emotion and without sarcastic humor sounds wonderful. 



> I identify with the INFP child profile too, but is that relevant?


There are probably some similarities, with the introversion and the Fi there. Your description of yourself as a child didn't really sound ENTJ: they're anything but shy. Your reservedness and shyness sound like natural introversion. And you said you were imaginative, which is indicative of a child with strong intuition (at least in the top two functions. Children generally have use of only their top two functions. I was a completely unimaginative child, although I can use my Ni now.) Did you check out an INTJ child profile, too? I'm curious if it resonates at all with you. (I'm always interested in what people were like as children because most children are their natural selves without questioning or changing the way they are.)



> When I was a child, I was very shy, yes. I cried a lot if I had to be with people I didn't know. I was the sort of kid who is really reserved at first, but then when I got to know the person, I'd be happy and trust them. *I was intelligent and quick to learn, and asked a lot of big questions. I was creative and used to enjoy making up imaginary worlds.* I was also a lot more responsible than I am now  A bit gullible though, I used to cry to my mom if my friends tricked me. I never did stuff like that and so found it confusing.


This does sound like it could be INTJ. I had forgotten the bolded part. It sounds very Ni-dom.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> well, values and feelings in a Fi dom cannot be separated, because the point is that Fi doms judge life through their feelings, that's the whole point of being a Fi dom. As for values changing from childhood throughout the journey of life and through adulthood, i'm not sure my values really changed to be honest. values as honesty, respect, fairness, justice, kindness, etc. what i find as far as changes in understanding life, is that learning about the different personality types helps to understand people's behavior and my own as well, and understand what their strenghts and weaknesses are, and my own as well, so with that greater understanding and knowledge helps me to cope better with people, but my values don't change. And things like people going through anxiety disorders, etc, to learn and understand more about that too helps me to understand and cope better with people too but it doesn't change my values. I don't know if that's the answer you were hoping to hear from me, but that's how i'm drawn to answer you on that? if there is anything else you would like me to answer on, please feel free to ask? i love discussing all this personality type stuff, i love to learn.



Eh no, I don't think that's the point of being Fi dom. You don't judge life for the purpose of being Fi dom. You judge for the purpose and destiny of your life. We have values for a purpose, just like we use logica for a purpose. Perhaps it's true that many INFPs or Fs wear their values like a christmas three, but that has a purpose in itself as well. 

I have made a lot of bad decisions, because I thought it was the most sensible and logical thing to do, while ignoring Feeling. I didn't even know I was an INFP, until about less than a year ago. I have also made decisions based on Feeling, that turned out pretty bad, and sometimes very painful as well, or I had messed things up because for Feeling reasons that in the end, because of the repercussions (causality) were just not worth bothering. I also had double standards, excusing myself for things I easily accused others of. 

The values you name, were probably already learned as a child. Most children know pretty well what is unfair, unkind, etc. You don't need to be an F for that. We often talk about 'values', which are 'ideal' concepts, but mostly the discussion is about 'norms' (rules/code, form, tone, feel, style). You and I may agree on the values but think different about norms/rules/style. 

I mean, have you always been completely honest? Should you always be honest, for instance to a child? Is it really always helpful or practical and better to be honest, both for yourself or the other? (to tell you the truth I am a pretty lousy liar, so there's practical considerations as well) And what is justice? How do you enforce it? Do you always fight injustice, or do you sometimes look away? 

It's actually a scientific fact that we are not honest. We are biased, and prejudiced. Positively towards our friends and allies and negatively towards our competitors/ rivals. We also know which brain chemicals cause this, so it appears to serve a significant purpose in our evolution of social cognition. Imagine if we would always be completely honest to our friends, and judge them objectively. Perhaps it would be bad for social coherence. 

And our system of values, our moral compass, are like an extension to this evolved 'hardcoded' (brain) system of gratification/ reward, that also causes us, to become horny, or to fall in love and want nothing else than be together, or want no one else (rival) in the proximity your mate. Just like we (almost profoundly) fear social rejection (like most social animals) as our ancestors have managed to survive as a group of hunters/gatherers, rather than as individuals, for most of at least the last 100,000 years. Anyway, these values serve a purpose, and is rational. But if our intelligence, our values and logic, our language, organisation skills and technology, at the end of the day caused us to completely annihilate ourselves, it just wasn't so purposeful and 'fit' after all. 

There's a very important value that @_Amaterasu_ named though, and that is 'consistency'. We don't like it/trust it when people are inconsistent. It's important for judging fairness, justice, equality (respect), honesty, and to some extend even kindness, because reciprocity is based on consistency. And because it is a lot more difficult to be kind, when people are inconsistent and it is hard to anticipate the behavior of the other. (hence the handshake) But kindness is not particularly INFPish, not even particularly human. We experience inconsistency as 'dissonance' so our ego usually does a hell of a job to level our inconsistencies, double standards, fallacies, bias and in our predispositions, beliefs, values and behaviour, or stash way from our awareness or consciousness.

What I mean to say is, we need values as a guidance, to streamline our behaviour. INFPs and perhaps F in general like to 

I'm sure you don't mind us going slightly off-topic do you @_Amaterasu_ ?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> @_Ama_teraso What were you like as a child?





> _When I was a child, I was very shy, yes. I cried a lot if I had to be with people I didn't know. I was the sort of kid who is really reserved at first, but then when I got to know the person, I'd be happy and trust them. I was intelligent and quick to learn, and asked a lot of big questions. I was creative and used to enjoy making up imaginary worlds. I was also a lot more responsible than I am now  A bit gullible though, I used to cry to my mom if my friends tricked me. I never did stuff like that and so found it confusing*.*_


quoted from my previous post


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> quoted from my previous post


Sounds like an Ni dominant to me. Do you remember a bit later, whether or not you were predisposed to Te or Fe?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Sounds like an Ni dominant to me. Do you remember a bit later, whether or not you were predisposed to Te or Fe?


I think Te. Following schedules came naturally to me.
I'm not sure if I had any Fe at all, though. I can say I don't have it now.

What about the shy, needy, stubborn part though, does that really sound Ni dom?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> You could be an INTJ with either well-developed or looping tertiary Fi. (But your Te is strong so maybe Fi is not even looping, maybe it's just strong.) Either way, your use of Fi is much stronger than a typical INTJ, at least a typical young, immature INTJ. I mistyped for a long time although I had so many signs of ISTP, because I didn't relate so well to the ISTPs here in their forum. Turns out, I use Ni (and even Fe) more than the typical immature ISTP: I don't live my whole life out of Ti-Se. You don't live your whole life out of Ni-Te, you use your Fi and it makes you very different than INTJs who don't. (If you are indeed an INTJ. Which sounds like a strong possibility.) By the way, an INTJ with emotion and without sarcastic humor sounds wonderful.
> 
> 
> There are probably some similarities, with the introversion and the Fi there. Your description of yourself as a child didn't really sound ENTJ: they're anything but shy. Your reservedness and shyness sound like natural introversion. And you said you were imaginative, which is indicative of a child with strong intuition (at least in the top two functions. Children generally have use of only their top two functions. I was a completely unimaginative child, although I can use my Ni now.) Did you check out an INTJ child profile, too? I'm curious if it resonates at all with you. (I'm always interested in what people were like as children because most children are their natural selves without questioning or changing the way they are.)
> ...


Note I was a gullible crybaby who needed my parents a lot  Not very independent either.

Also, what do you say about inferior Se? I don't relate to that _quite_ as much.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> What about the shy, needy, stubborn part though, does that really sound Ni dom?


Ni can be very stubborn; I would imagine just like Si but in it's own way: Si wants things The Way They Should Be, Ni wants things The Way They Think They Are. (I'm making that up but I think it could be close to right.) Shyness is typical of any introvert, and certainly Ni-doms. Needy I think is the tendency of anyone with Fi rather than Fe.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Eh no, I don't think that's the point of being Fi dom. You don't judge life for the purpose of being Fi dom. You judge for the purpose and destiny of your life. We have values for a purpose, just like we use logica for a purpose. Perhaps it's true that many INFPs or Fs wear their values like a christmas three, but that has a purpose in itself as well.
> 
> I have made a lot of bad decisions, because I thought it was the most sensible and logical thing to do, while ignoring Feeling. I didn't even know I was an INFP, until about less than a year ago. I have also made decisions based on Feeling, that turned out pretty bad, and sometimes very painful as well, or I had messed things up because for Feeling reasons that in the end, because of the repercussions (causality) were just not worth bothering. I also had double standards, excusing myself for things I easily accused others of.
> 
> ...


Wow, you dont' sound like an INFP to me? just saying?

anyhows, i don't relate to alot of what you are saying, it kinda just goes over my head and sails over my head, so call me dumb, that's fine, but it doesn't change that i'm a 48 year old Fi dom INFP. 

Here's my take on life, and the personality types.

People are created to live in unity for effective functioning and survival.

No one person can do it all. It takes different people with different skills/talents to come together in unity for the effective functioning and survival of the human race.

So, no personality type has it all and never will. Period. Any person or type that thinks they have all the knowledge and answers is wrong. No one has all the knowledge and answers.

And back to Fi dom and values. i judge life through my feelings. Period.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> I think Te. Following schedules came naturally to me.
> I'm not sure if I had any Fe at all, though. I can say I don't have it now.
> 
> What about the shy, needy, stubborn part though, does that really sound Ni dom?


It's more about asking big questions than anything. Coupled by the fact that, from your answers in the OP, you seem like a very unhealthy INFP, it would appear that you have been in the grip of Se for long enough that your attitude for introversion has prevailed simply by necessity in order to not descend into insanity. I see a lot of second-guessing yourself and that you sort of spin in place a lot due to your insecurities, indicating that you simply don't trust yourself. I went through the same thing and appeared to be an INTJ. I really need more data. I think that your post here is indicative of Te, and your posts lately seem to have the air of such inquisitive curiosity that an Ni dominant gets when they are on the path towards discovering something, but I really need you to dig a bit deeper and give me more details. Why were you stubborn, what were your motivations, what kind of big questions did you ask, etc.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Eh no, I don't think that's the point of being Fi dom. You don't judge life for the purpose of being Fi dom. You judge for the purpose and destiny of your life. We have values for a purpose, just like we use logica for a purpose. Perhaps it's true that many INFPs or Fs wear their values like a christmas three, but that has a purpose in itself as well.
> 
> I have made a lot of bad decisions, because I thought it was the most sensible and logical thing to do, while ignoring Feeling. I didn't even know I was an INFP, until about less than a year ago. I have also made decisions based on Feeling, that turned out pretty bad, and sometimes very painful as well, or I had messed things up because for Feeling reasons that in the end, because of the repercussions (causality) were just not worth bothering. I also had double standards, excusing myself for things I easily accused others of.
> 
> ...


I don't mind because this is quite an informative post, and tells me at the end of the day type isn't going to determine our lives and our futures because that is something unique for us 

The funny thing is, while I don't like inconsistency, I am quite inconsistent myself.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> Ni can be very stubborn; I would imagine just like Si but in it's own way: Si wants things The Way They Should Be, Ni wants things The Way They Think They Are.


No, this isn't really the case. Both sentiments could be applied to both functions.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> Note I was a gullible crybaby who needed my parents a lot  Not very independent either.
> 
> Also, what do you say about inferior Se? I don't relate to that _quite_ as much.


Hmm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what gullible implies: maybe low or no Ne. I was (and somewhat still am) very gullible. What I don't like about some child descriptions is that it makes some kids sound completely unemotional, and the fact is that all of them cry about some things sometimes. What kinds of things made you cry? You said going with strangers (implying introversion and maybe low/no Fe), and being tricked by your friends (maybe implying introversion and thinking over extroversion and feeling). Anything else that made you cry? Just as an example, I would cry when I wasn't allowed to do fun, adventurous things (Se), when I couldn't see something someone was pointing me to see (Se), when I felt completely underestimated (Ti), left out or misunderstood (inferior Fe), or unable to express my thoughts (Ti) or feelings to others (Fe).


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> No, this isn't really the case. Both sentiments could be applied to both functions.


But they can both be stubborn?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> But they can both be stubborn?


Yes, but that's true of any function really.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> It's more about asking big questions than anything. Coupled by the fact that, from your answers in the OP, you seem like a very unhealthy INFP, it would appear that you have been in the grip of Se for long enough that your attitude for introversion has prevailed simply by necessity in order to not descend into insanity. I see a lot of second-guessing yourself and that you sort of spin in place a lot due to your insecurities, indicating that you simply don't trust yourself. I went through the same thing and appeared to be an INTJ. I really need more data. I think that your post here is indicative of Te, and your posts lately seem to have the air of such inquisitive curiosity that an Ni dominant gets when they are on the path towards discovering something, but I really need you to dig a bit deeper and give me more details. Why were you stubborn, what were your motivations, what kind of big questions did you ask, etc.


I completely second this! And this is exactly the feeling I've had all along, from the very beginning of the questionnaire. I felt it was the _Fi that was wrong_, that made her feel and appear as so unhealthy. The Se is indeed there but very subtle. And ruling out Se being a part of her natural stack was easy enough to do by assigning more picture tasks. 

Letting her to do more tasks that activated Te to discern where it was in her stack was also easy enough to do, and Ni was there all along, screaming in my face so yeah. 

INTJ is very likely. When I see Ni in writing it's like the post is always pointing inwards. Hard to describe.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Because Ni is the dominant function in Ni doms, they might not even be aware of this strong desire to look into deep and underlying meaning into everything, just like I, as a Ti dom, have issues seeing how one cannot have a constant desire to deconstruct. The dominant function becomes the same as breathing and when it becomes the same as breathing we become largely unaware of what we're doing and why.


Yeah. Today I had a big discussion with a few people about our life philosophies, and after around thirty minutes I was so spirited, I was at my best when I was arguing with them, hearing their views and trying to construct a worldview, and all of them were like, "I'm sorry but I can't continue arguing anymore, it makes me lose my balance." And I was extremely disappointed and said, "But doesn't it energize you? I feel so curious to know more." Them: "Philosophy is endless. If we talk like this, we'll continue talking forever. There's no point!" Me: "But because it's endless, we can talk forever! It's so much fun!" 

And I whined for fifteen minutes trying to get them all to continue the conversation, but they were all tired out while I was on the edge of my seat waiting for them to resume.

Argument has always energized me. I come up with several arguments on the spot; it all just hits me without any thought. It's the same for writing. When I write, I come up new sentences and emotions as I proceed.

I am not actually sure if this is Ni, but I felt like sharing.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Amaterasu, let's take a different approach. How would you engage and interact with a subject that piques your interest? What do you think? What will you do?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> I don't remember very much from my childhood though, try as I might. What I did remember was in that post you saw earlier. If there is anything else you might want to ask, though...?
> 
> edit: My mom says I have few to none of the IFP child's potential strengths here, and nearly all the weaknesses. (I think she was talking in present tense - note "_have_" - but I suppose it still applies)
> She read the INJ child article here (she only read the Traits and Potential Strengths) and according to her that seems like a better fit for child me, excepting the "taking responsibility for actions" part.


Would you mind going through the time where your...confidence sort of began to wane? Was there a tumultuous period during your life where you felt that the world was against you or that you were otherwise invalidated due to something traumatic? What was your family life like?

EDIT: It seems like @LeaT is making some breakthroughs, so you can view this as a cursory, sort of auxiliary priority.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

mimesis said:


> (it's allright, @_Amaterasu_, pls don't feel embarrased about it)
> 
> You don't have to be specific, but has anything severe traumatic ever happened?


I'm not embarrassed  Did you perhaps misinterpret the (red) to mean I was red in the face? I meant it for the text I had highlighted in red.
I like people to know and appreciate the real me, so I often end up saying too much about myself and am a little more open about my feelings when under a little pressure.

Well yeah. A month ago I felt like everyone was following me wherever I went and I was literally so scared, I started walking around with a pocket knife and coming up with elaborate plans for physical defense and attack and escape. I stayed at home as much as I could and avoided seeing people in the eye. I obsessively rationalized every scenario and seemed very angry to people close to me, because I didn't know how to express my fear. It feels horrible, like you are forced to live only for today and don't know what will happen tomorrrow.

I finally managed to tell someone and I've been feeling much better since.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> .
> I like people to know and appreciate the real me, so I often end up saying too much about myself and am a little more open about my feelings when under a little pressure.


Se/Fi in the inferior.



> Well yeah. A month ago I felt like everyone was following me wherever I went and I was literally so scared, I started walking around with a pocket knife and coming up with elaborate plans for physical defense and attack and escape. I stayed at home as much as I could and avoided seeing people in the eye. I obsessively rationalized every scenario and seemed very angry to people close to me, because I didn't know how to express my fear. It feels horrible, like you are forced to live only for today and don't know what will happen tomorrrow.
> 
> I finally managed to tell someone and I've been feeling much better since.


This is Ni all over the place. It sounds like you also have repressed feelings that you need to unlock. Find someone you trust to listen and validate these feelings, and talk through them.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Would you mind going through the time where your...confidence sort of began to wane? Was there a tumultuous period during your life where you felt that the world was against you or that you were otherwise invalidated due to something traumatic? What was your family life like?
> 
> EDIT: It seems like @_LeaT_ is making some breakthroughs, so you can view this as a cursory, sort of auxiliary priority.


It was gradual. It started slowly, with the usual self-esteem decrease that almost every young teenager goes through, and my emotions heightened (usual dumb stuff you go through when you are a teenager) and with it came self-hate, a period of suicidal thoughts, a few months of what I thought were depression combined with no faith in my capabilities, also accompanied by loss in productivity and interest in school work, and then the sadness calmed itself down and I reached a confused, searching state where I became aware that I was going through a mental struggle, started some self-discovery, got into MBTI and came where I was now.

I occasionally am reminded of my incompetence, but I'm trying to calm myself down.

My family has always been extremely supportive, and any problems in it are only caused my changing mental state. I notice that when I am in a good mood, everyone else seems happy too but my bad mood brings people down (obviously)

It's been like a gradual decline over a period of around 2 years, but I'm hopefully beginning to see what's wrong and change nowadays. I hope, yeah


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> i'm not sure who you are referring to, i thought she was INTJ going through anxiety, but she says Ti is the cog function she leasts understands, and Ni she doesn't understand much either, so what do you make of that? How can she be an INTJ then? Ti is the cog function INFP and ISFP dont' hardly understand, but ISFP has better grasp and useage with Ni than INFP. Ama is going through anxiety, and that also makes the typing very complex and complicated also.


ISFPs I know are reluctant to disclose much about themselves.
I am not sure about type either. I am more focussed on person, emotion and cognition than personality 'type' anyway. Because in the end, even two people of the same type can be very different persons, or some I can relate to or appeal to me more than others.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> It was gradual. It started slowly, with the usual self-esteem decrease that almost every young teenager goes through, and my emotions heightened (usual dumb stuff you go through when you are a teenager) and with it came self-hate, a period of suicidal thoughts, a few months of what I thought were depression combined with no faith in my capabilities, also accompanied by loss in productivity and interest in school work, and then the sadness calmed itself down and I reached a confused, searching state where I became aware that I was going through a mental struggle, started some self-discovery, got into MBTI and came where I was now.
> 
> I occasionally am reminded of my incompetence, but I'm trying to calm myself down.
> 
> ...


This sounds _exactly_ the same as what I went through for the most part. I am sold on the inferior grip...coupled with your post above saying that you like to be really expressive with your feelings when you're under pressure, I am basically decided that you're an INTJ.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @_Amaterasu_, let's take a different approach. How would you engage and interact with a subject that piques your interest? What do you think? What will you do?


There are several scenarios. If I'm telling someone about something that interests me, I will be very enthusiastic and try my best to make them like it as much as I do.

If I'm hearing about something that seems interesting, I will listen carefully, try to inspect if the subject is as attractive as it seems to be, and look for any flaws before slowly starting to get into it.

If it's an argument, I will defend my point 100% and don't like to lose at all, ever. I will argue very passionately.

If it's something I'm doing, I'll put all my effort into it and try to make it as good as possible.

Basically I'm just very enthusiastic when it comes to anything I like a lot and put effort into it. 
(As long as I continue liking it)


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> This sounds _exactly_ the same as what I went through for the most part. I am sold on the inferior grip...coupled with your post above saying that you like to be really expressive with your feelings when you're under pressure, I am basically decided that you're an INTJ.


Yeah it's like, "No! You don't understand!" followed by a long description of all my feelings that may seem like TMI when I think about it later. I like people to give me the right help, so they should know where I am coming from. I wish everyone was as honest and straightforward as that...now that I think about it.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> I'm not embarrassed  Did you perhaps misinterpret the (red) to mean I was red in the face? I meant it for the text I had highlighted in red.
> I like people to know and appreciate the real me, so I often end up saying too much about myself and am a little more open about my feelings when under a little pressure.
> 
> Well yeah. A month ago I felt like everyone was following me wherever I went and I was literally so scared, I started walking around with a pocket knife and coming up with elaborate plans for physical defense and attack and escape. I stayed at home as much as I could and avoided seeing people in the eye. I obsessively rationalized every scenario and seemed very angry to people close to me, because I didn't know how to express my fear. It feels horrible, like you are forced to live only for today and don't know what will happen tomorrrow.
> ...


Yes I thought you meant that with 'red' :blushed:

I do believe what you fear is very real and disturbing. But I think it matters whether you had a directly related incident before, or not in particular, to understand you better. For instance, I have a friend who was never paranoid, almost too careless, until unfortunately something bad happened to him.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Yes I thought you meant that with 'red' :blushed:
> 
> I do believe what you fear is very real and disturbing. But I think it matters whether you had a directly related incident before, or not in particular, to understand you better. For instance, I have a friend who was never paranoid, almost too careless, until unfortunately something bad happened to him.


Don't tell me more, I'm already scared by what you said :crying:
(I'm serious)


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> Thank you for this. It's quite lovely, at least to me.
> I'm still young, though, so maybe I will develop my type better in the future.


You will develop your cognition better, not your type :wink:


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

mimesis said:


> You will develop your cognition better, not your type :wink:


Yeah, that :kitteh:


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> No, I am not. She is not using Ne, she is using Ni. It makes all the difference. That alone rules out INFP. If you can't see the difference between Ne and Ni then I don't know how to proceed to explain the difference to you, but to me it is obvious she is not using Ne. She didn't find Ne humor humorous and she didn't like the Ne task I gave her! She doesn't even write like an Ne user would. In the image descriptions she's given us she always focuses on the meanings in the image itself, but never associates outside. And the Ni is also evident in her posting style in general.
> 
> I was willing to concede Fi dom, but the more I read from her the less sense it made. INFP just doesn't seem right, which is why I also explored the possibility of ISFP. She didn't seem to associate or enjoy that idea either, and the functions I tested didn't point towards that direction. So what other types use intuition and Fi together? INTJs and ENTJs when gripping.


I don't agree with your deductive reasoning, because you don't question the underlying assumptions. Like INFPs supposedly happy. That's outrageous.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I don't agree with your deductive reasoning, because you don't question the underlying assumptions. Like INFPs supposedly happy. That's outrageous.


So @mimesis, would you still say I am an INFP?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> No, I am not. She is not using Ne, she is using Ni. It makes all the difference. That alone rules out INFP. If you can't see the difference between Ne and Ni then I don't know how to proceed to explain the difference to you, but to me it is obvious she is not using Ne. She didn't find Ne humor humorous and she didn't like the Ne task I gave her! She doesn't even write like an Ne user would. In the image descriptions she's given us she always focuses on the meanings in the image itself, but never associates outside. And the Ni is also evident in her posting style in general.
> 
> I was willing to concede Fi dom, but the more I read from her the less sense it made. INFP just doesn't seem right, which is why I also explored the possibility of ISFP. She didn't seem to associate or enjoy that idea either, and the functions I tested didn't point towards that direction. So what other types use intuition and Fi together? INTJs and ENTJs when gripping.


But most of those doesn't have anything to do with her type...
They describe her as a person, but not her cognitive functions necessarily.
I don't like reading books and rather prefer to talk with people. Those things would make a lot of people type me as an extrovert, but I'm not.

So what if she finds some of your stuff boring?
So what if she doesn't like what you find funny?

I honestly felt uncomfortable by the content of both those videos you showed.
I can't laugh at people puking.
There is no such thing as type specific jokes.
I like this one (and so did at least an ENFJ and an INFJ as well)


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> There are several scenarios. If I'm telling someone about something that interests me, I will be very enthusiastic and try my best to make them like it as much as I do.
> 
> If I'm hearing about something that seems interesting, I will listen carefully, try to inspect if the subject is as attractive as it seems to be, and look for any flaws before slowly starting to get into it.
> 
> ...


It's a little vague but definitely points towards Ni dom, as I get the sense that you like to look into things, understand the big picture. Not so much about principles as in my case for example.

I agree with @MegaTuxRacer that you're most likely an INTJ in the grip.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> But most of those doesn't have anything to do with her type...
> They describe her as a person, but not her cognitive functions necessarily.
> I don't like reading books and rather prefer to talk with people. Those things would make a lot of people type me as an extrovert, but I'm not.
> 
> ...


The way we understand and react to the outside world points towards specific cognitive functions, because our functions color our understanding of the world. And yes, I would say that there are type-specific jokes. People are likely to perceive a specific joke as more humorous based on their undertanding of the world. I think Ne humor is very funny, especially ENTP humor (Family Guy), and I absolutely crack up at that video every time. 

The Dumb Dumber video is more leaning towards ENTJ humor with the shock value from Te with the more insidious Ni peaking through at times. 

There's a reason why I as an INTP like breaking things down into pieces, to analyze. This is because I can interact with my dominant function. It gives me energy. This is what we look at in questionnaires too, to understand her reasoning but also to see how she interacts to the real world and what cognitive functions she prefers based on this. 

I let her do all these tasks to get a better idea of who she is as a person and what functions she is more likely to prefer using over others. The descriptions she provided with he reasoning for each task was very useful as well. 

You may not agree with my line of reasoning here, but I think there's sufficient evidence to point towards that different types prefer different types of humor simply because the humor we enjoy depends on how we understand perceive the world. I have issues understanding sensor humor, for example.

And I do think the image you provided is actually very NeFi-esque humor-wise.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


>


This is cute


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I get into her head wtih my Fe and what I see is paranoia over her feelings, not over her thinking. It's her feelings that make her feel incompetent.


So....? Therefor it's inferior? What kind of logic is that?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> Supine Phlegmatic and Phlegmatic Supine are moderately agreeable, and Supine is not me. The one thing is all these descriptions seem to me to overlap a bit, and I can't choose merely one.
> Does it count if I say that temperament tests give me the result Melancholy?


That's not possible it's either one or the other :shocked::tongue::wink:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> So....? Therefor it's inferior? What kind of logic is that?


I never said it was definitely inferior. It was a suggestion I made to rule it out as inferior some time ago. But the more I read on the more I felt it was in a tertiary position. Some of it is natural too her but too much not so much. It's too much, that much is clear to me. This has nothing to do with making her less humane - this has to do with making her less stressed. It's inhumane to tell her she's an Fi dom and make her believe her behavior is normal because she's an Fi dom.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I never said INFPs are always happy. Unhappy INFPs do however seem to act and think differently than she does. SiFi loops being one such example. She's not shown any evidence towards such behavior thus far. So this has become more of a "I don't think you understand INFP" thing rather than "her cognitive functions do not seem to line up with INFP"? Why is it important to you that she's like an INFP? What evidence can you provide that would disprove INTJ?
> 
> I do feel that you're making this personal and I am not sure I like it. I have absolutely no interest to tell her "you're this or that" based on anything else than what the functions I perceive her using. I reiterate, I see her using Ni, not Ne. Why don't you attack these arguments instead of saying that "INFPs must always be happy?" That's a gross way to twist it what I previously wrote and entirely missing the point of what I've been doing all along.
> 
> ...


Well well, you don't do so bad on the ad hominem yourself, congrats. 

You assume she told you everything. So if she doesn't answer the questions about past experiences, we just don't know if it's Si-Fi or Ni-Fi? Right or wrong? You just argue 'she didn't say, therefore it isn't'

I don't focus so much on type. But if a ST argues she should develop more Te because of her so called inferior Fi, while her score point out that she has excellent use of both Fi and Te, it doesn't make much sense to me. 

She needs to develop Ne and Fe. For some reason she misses that connection with the world. That's how I look at it. And if you miss that connection with the outer world, you won't get rid of your fears. 

That's the thing with avoidant behavior. Ni (or Si) is only reinforcing it.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I never said it was definitely inferior. It was a suggestion I made to rule it out as inferior some time ago. But the more I read on the more I felt it was in a tertiary position. Some of it is natural too her but too much not so much. It's too much, that much is clear to me. This has nothing to do with making her less humane - this has to do with making her less stressed. It's inhumane to tell her she's an Fi dom and make her believe her behavior is normal because she's an Fi dom.


Feeling of incompetence or inadequacy is actually a 'normal' flaw for INFPs. Other types have a tendency to overestimate themselves or blame others. Guess, which one that is... On second thought, never mind, because they are just stereotypes, and it wouldn't be right to make judgements too much based on stereotypes.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Bear987 said:


> but the view of the ocean would definitely kick-start their imagination.


I am INFP, I did Art School and I would disagree with that. I've seen hundred thousands of that, it doesn't tickle me.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I don't focus so much on type. But if a NT argues she should develop more Te because of her so called inferior Fi, while her score point out that she has excellent use of both Fi and Te, it doesn't make much sense to me.


The thing about cognitive functions and personality types is that one person's strength is another person's weakness. A lot of Fi is not healthy for everybody. I remember a kid at a summer camp where I worked who was a strong and serious personality, probably a Te-dom, who disrupted a few weeks of her cabin's life and her administrators' jobs because she was in some kind of Fi spiral. She didn't mean any harm, she was trying to work it out, but she just keep spinning around and around in her emotions and talking about them until everyone was spent and reluctantly agreed it was time for her to go home. Anybody with eyes and ears could see the girl was not in a healthy state. She had family problems, but it was probably thanks to her psychologist back home who had clearly encouraged her to focus on her feelings that just perpetuated her problems, when someone like her really needed more of a diversion from her feelings in order to start having experiences that produced better feelings. Just another example. Natural Fi users use it brilliantly. The rest of us don't have that ability, and focusing too much on what we feel leads us nowhere good.



> She needs to develop Ne and Fe. For some reason she misses that connection with the world. That's how I look at it. And if you miss that connection with the outer world, you won't get rid of your fears.


Why Fe? Whether she's INTJ or INFP her extroverted judging function is Te, not Fe. Fe won't help her any.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Feeling of incompetence or inadequacy is actually a 'normal' flaw for INFPs. Other types have a tendency to overestimate themselves or blame others. Guess, which one that is... On second thought, never mind, because they are just stereotypes, and it wouldn't be right to make judgements too much based on stereotypes.


I understand this, and that's why I really thought she was an Fi dom at first, especially as she did identify herself with inferior Te grip. However, I don't see the evidence for it. There was a reason I asked @hornet what he thought about the Te tasks I provided Amaterasu with because I wanted the response and confirmation of what a confirmed Fi dom would think about such a task. I also provided him to supply with more concrete examples to see if she could identify herself in those scenarios but she never confirmed. 

In the end, this entire discussion is quite inane. You've made this personal and I see no reason why I should continue to respond to you based on this reasoning. You're not focusing on what evidence I've spent so much time trying to sniff out, you're just zoning in on the fact that you think I have misjudged INFPs as an MBTI group. Your Fi butthurt is definitely not pretty, that's for sure. 

Honestly, I think me and @ltldslwmn could spend a lot of time trying to explain exactly how inferior Fe works in an IxTP and how we can get into the minds' of people to see it the way they do and how amazing this ability is when helping people to find themselves and who they are, but I won't. There's no point because you're not willing to listen. You just want to continue to zone in on why I am wrong and why you are right. 

Sorry, I won't entertain that discussion, personally. I am concerned about one thing - helping Amaterasu finding herself and make her feel better. The way you are behaving in this thread is not doing her a favor, that's for sure.

I am very open to question my own typing and I gladly accept input, but not from a butthurt Fi dom who feels I've wronged them in some way. This is not logic or reason, this is just pure butthurt and I don't reason with butthurt.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I understand this, and that's why I really thought she was an Fi dom at first, especially as she did identify herself with inferior Te grip. However, I don't see the evidence for it. There was a reason I asked @_hornet_ what he thought about the Te tasks I provided Amaterasu with because I wanted the response and confirmation of what a confirmed Fi dom would think about such a task. I also provided him to supply with more concrete examples to see if she could identify herself in those scenarios but she never confirmed.
> 
> In the end, this entire discussion is quite inane. You've made this personal and I see no reason why I should continue to respond to you based on this reasoning. You're not focusing on what evidence I've spent so much time trying to sniff out, you're just zoning in on the fact that you think I have misjudged INFPs as an MBTI group. Your Fi butthurt is definitely not pretty, that's for sure.
> 
> ...


I made this personal? Get a grip.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Amaterasu said:


> Supine Phlegmatic and Phlegmatic Supine are moderately agreeable, and Supine is not me. The one thing is all these descriptions seem to me to overlap a bit, and I can't choose merely one.
> Does it count if I say that temperament tests give me the result Melancholy?





mimesis said:


> That's not possible it's either one or the other :shocked::tongue::wink:


 Well, that's Melancholy in _Inclusion_, (social skills) but we're looking at *Control* (leadership and action) now. Temperaments are blended along these areas, so you do not have to be one OR the other; and this corresponds to Interaction styles and Keirsey temperament. (And there's also a third area of temperament; for deep personal relations).
Many tests do not give blend results, or you are just supposed to figure that the one second in strength is the "blend" if the percentage is close. But the system I'm pointing to clearly divides them up according to these distinct areas of temperament need.

So perhaps then look at these two:
Temperament Melancholy In Control
Temperament:Melancholy Phlegmatic in Control

These might suggest ISTJ, and if that's the case, then cognitively, you're very close to INFP. Just the dom/aux and tertiary/inferior swapped. Again, as a female, tertiary Fi may be very strong and visible, and for the ISTJ in particular; dom. Si retains the "traditional roles of women", so they will all the more look like an F on the surface.
I do see people now suggesting S for you, so maybe that's it, and you would be a pure Melancholy; at least as far as the two areas corresponding to type.

You did seem to identify with Ni dominant earlier, and I was beginning to think INFJ (Melancholy-Supine). If ISTJ, then Ni would actually be the 8th place function (called the "Daimonic Personality"), and usually very negative (but also comes up as "left brain alternative" to dom. Si). So I'd have to look again at the discussion of your Ni use, to see if it fits that. I think I saw mention of forms of negative Ni, so that might fit.

Here's Berens' description of "destructive" Ni:
"They usually don't picture the world differently than what they've experienced, so they may resist transformational change [i.e. based on an abstract vision] even when it's laid out. When really stressed, they may make dire predictions with detailed certainty. They may also mistake some deep symbolism as a guidepost for life. Yet on occasion they tap into universal symbols and foresights that, when woven into daily life, can transform it."


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> Why Fe? Whether she's INTJ or INFP her extroverted judging function is Te, not Fe. Fe won't help her any.


I mean that in the sense of better understanding human/social interaction. Improving social efficacy and confidence. I think that would make @Amaterasu an irresistable charming person because she has everything she needs for that.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> The thing about cognitive functions and personality types is that one person's strength is another person's weakness. A lot of Fi is not healthy for everybody. I remember a kid at a summer camp where I worked who was a strong and serious personality, probably a Te-dom, who disrupted a few weeks of her cabin's life and her administrators' jobs because she was in some kind of Fi spiral. She didn't mean any harm, she was trying to work it out, but she just keep spinning around and around in her emotions and talking about them until everyone was spent and reluctantly agreed it was time for her to go home. Anybody with eyes and ears could see the girl was not in a healthy state. She had family problems, but it was probably thanks to her psychologist back home who had clearly encouraged her to focus on her feelings that just perpetuated her problems, when someone like her really needed more of a diversion from her feelings in order to start having experiences that produced better feelings. Just another example. Natural Fi users use it brilliantly. The rest of us don't have that ability, and focusing too much on what we feel leads us nowhere good.
> 
> 
> 
> Why Fe? Whether she's INTJ or INFP her extroverted judging function is Te, not Fe. Fe won't help her any.



Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFPs are due to their dominant Feeling function overshadowing the rest of their personality. When the dominant function of Introverted Feeling overshadows everything else, the INFP can't use Extraverted iNtuition to take in information in a truly objective fashion.

*Phase I *(Teens-20s)
This phase is characterized by the development and employment of INFPs’ dominant function, Introverted Feeling (Fi). Phase I INFPs tend to be highly idealistic and quick to judge (even if keeping most of their opinions to themselves). In this phase, they have yet to grasp the bigger picture of reality (Ne). While their Fi confers a strong sense of right and wrong, their moral sensibilities have yet to be opened by the use and development of their Ne.

About your last sentence, that is sometimes difficult for Fi doms to learn, that is that other people can easier set aside what they feel. So a young person may tend to think 'If he can do that why can't I?'. But, we go mental if we are not congruent with our feeling or in the right habitat. In that sense we can be our worst enemy.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFPs are due to their dominant Feeling function overshadowing the rest of their personality. When the dominant function of Introverted Feeling overshadows everything else, the INFP can't use Extraverted iNtuition to take in information in a truly objective fashion.
> 
> *Phase I *(Teens-20s)
> This phase is characterized by the development and employment of INFPs’ dominant function, Introverted Feeling (Fi). Phase I INFPs tend to be highly idealistic and quick to judge (even if keeping most of their opinions to themselves). In this phase, they have yet to grasp the bigger picture of reality (Ne). While their Fi confers a strong sense of right and wrong, their moral sensibilities have yet to be opened by the use and development of their Ne.
> ...


I see what you mean. I have a good INFP friend I've known since we were kids and I've seen how she's developed/disciplined herself to cope with a world that just doesn't feel as much as she does, and I admire her for it. I think growing up is hard for everybody but maybe hardest for Fi-doms.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> It's been interesting and fun and I've learned a lot working with you on it.


I have too. Your input has been very helpful. Thank you very much! :kitteh:


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I mean that in the sense of better understanding human/social interaction. Improving social efficacy and confidence. I think that would make @_Amaterasu_ an irresistable charming person because she has everything she needs for that.


I've been told by a few people that when I'm feeling down I should always surround myself with people because they'd make me forget my problems and stop obsessing over them.

But oh, you are a _very_ encouraging person :happy:


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> I've been told by a few people that when I'm feeling down I should always surround myself with people because they'd make me forget my problems and stop obsessing over them.


Please don't obsess over problems. It never, never solves them. It sounds like some great advice you got: just be sure to surround yourself with good, peaceful people, low drama. Life is really all right, and everything will be all right. (That's not just for you, that's for all of us.)



> But oh, you are a _very_ encouraging person :happy:


Now, don't go getting all Fe on us and ruining our fine theories.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> Please don't obsess over problems. It never, never solves them. It sounds like some great advice you got: just be sure to surround yourself with good, peaceful people, low drama. Life is really all right, and everything will be all right. (That's not just for you, that's for all of us.)
> 
> Now, don't go getting all Fe on us and ruining our fine theories.


Thank you, really. It's an important lesson I need to learn.

I was just playing, dear. :wink:


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

I read through this whole thread again, in light of its later developments, and I just wanted to make a quick comment. Another thing that makes me doubt INFP and be confident in INTJ is something you mentioned a few times: your reasons, at different times, for thinking each type. At one time you were feeling that you were INTJ, when some other people who barely knew you told you "oh, no, you're not that, you're what we are" (INFP). As you know by now, your type is something that no one else can put on you, it has to feel right and add up for you. Other people can help you understand yourself, but it sounds like those INFPs (not in this thread, the ones before who made you question your type) didn't deepen your understanding of yourself but may have confused it. When you have your type right, it will make sense to your mind and you'll feel at peace about it. Also, when your mother didn't see your strengths in the INFP child description but in the INTJ. Mom usually does know best.  Anyway, glad you've settled on a type for now and I hope it's because it makes sense and feels right to you. You're a smart girl so I'm sure it is.


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