# Why RAPE is sincerely hilarious



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Donovan said:


> you're right.
> 
> the video can't have more than one implication--i mean, aside from pointing fingers at your prized mental-jerk obsession: feminism (preemptively defensive much, without evidence of the contrary to back it up?)--and so is not "meaningful"? okay, right...
> 
> ...


So, him having a history of debating in feminist threads, and generally (not indiscriminately) providing evidence to the defense of their assertions, somehow automatically invalidates his points. Nice argument. 

The points that the video was trying to make are not inherently contrarian to feminist claims, and solidify some of their arguments to an extent, such as denouncing stereotypical gender roles. As was already said.

Your entire "argument" is full of lame personal attacks, if you ask me.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> you're right.
> 
> the video can't have more than one implication--i mean, aside from pointing fingers at your prized mental-jerk obsession: feminism (preemptively defensive much, without evidence of the contrary to back it up?)--and so is not "meaningful"? okay, right...
> 
> ...


I've read this twice now and I still can't figure out what the fuck you're on about. The only thing I'm certain of is that, if I give up now, I'm really not going to be missing out on much. 



Yomiel said:


> I was saying your criticisms can easily be used against feminist videos. Tons of them are equally vague and nonsensical (like.. seriously, where have you been?).


Most likely. I've personally never seen a feminist video as stupid as this one but it's not difficult to imagine that they exist. Difference is, videos like the one here are shared because people actually think they're meaningful, but the only time I come across stupid feminist videos is when some stupid MRA has a point to prove. I mean, if your Facebook friends do that, then great, but why should that mean anything to me?


----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> Most likely. I've personally never seen a feminist video as stupid as this one but it's not difficult to imagine that they exist. Difference is, videos like the one here are shared because people actually think they're meaningful, but the only time I come across stupid feminist videos is when some stupid MRA has a point to prove. I mean, if your Facebook friends do that, then great, but why should that mean anything to me?


I've yet to see an MRA video hit Facebook or any other social media, but I'm sure they've been posted on someone's wall. Anyway, I saw this recently, so it's definitely a two way street.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Mee2 said:


> I've read this twice now and I still can't figure out what the fuck you're on about. The only thing I'm certain of is that, if I give up now, I'm really not going to be missing out on much.
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely. I've personally never seen a feminist video as stupid as this one but it's not difficult to imagine that they exist. Difference is, videos like the one here are shared because people actually think they're meaningful, but the only time I come across stupid feminist videos is when some stupid MRA has a point to prove. I mean, if your Facebook friends do that, then great, but why should that mean anything to me?


I'm not sure it's worth your time either, to be honest... that was hardly even a foreigner's English, and the arguments can't even be called that at this point.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> I've yet to see an MRA video hit Facebook or any other social media, but I'm sure they've been posted on someone's wall. Anyway, I saw this recently, so it's definitely a two way street.


Not very academic, but I rather enjoyed that, especially the guy in the dress at the end.

In any case, not sure what it's supposed to prove.

Edit: meaning, you can cherry pick anything.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> I've yet to see an MRA video hit Facebook or any other social media, but I'm sure they've been posted on someone's wall. Anyway, I saw this recently, so it's definitely a two way street.
> 
> 
> * *


Christina Hoff Sommers' videos get posted here all the time. I consider them to be MRA videos. 

That vid was a lot better than the one in the OP.


----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

@Metasentient Honestly, if that's your reaction then.. I guess I'm not surprised. My point was that stupid videos like this get posted all the time, but I think Mee2 is being inconsistent in calling them out.
@Mee2 Really? Some guy getting raped vs some little children being used to further someone else's agenda?


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> @Metasentient Honestly, if that's your reaction then.. I guess I'm not surprised. My point was that stupid videos like this get posted all the time, but I think Mee2 is being inconsistent in calling them out.


That's a nice assertion. Got any evidence? 



Yomiel said:


> @Mee2 Really? Some guy getting raped vs some little children being used to further someone else's agenda?


So is using child actors always unethical, or is it only when you don't like what they're saying?


----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> That's a nice assertion. Got any evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> So is using child actors always unethical, or is it only when you don't like what they're saying?


I'd say it's generally not a great thing to do.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> I'd say it's generally not a great thing to do.


But it sounds like it's especially bad when you don't like what they're saying... Regardless, would you say you have a good understanding of child development?


----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> But it sounds like it's especially bad when you don't like what they're saying... Regardless, would you say you have a good understanding of child development?


Well.. yeah, I'm sure you feel the same way too. If we indoctrinated a ton of boys with PUA ideals and then had them make a misogynistic video, I can't imagine you'd be pleased.. And I have some understanding of it, but I'm not a biologist. Why do you ask?


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

@Metasentient, @Mee2

i'll do this in one post, and then no more, since obviously you both are either unable or unwilling to see my point and i despise others playing stupid in an attempt to circumvent another's point: 

a guy makes a video about how he's been raped and the attitude in general towards male rape, and then, almost as a "counter" (in quotations because it's hardly one to begin with), Mee2 dismisses the issue entirely with "why the culture is this way to begin with", as if 

1) pointing fingers is somehow helpful (if done correctly, it can be, but assigning blame to assign blame without a follow up is pointless, and shows more the emotional response one has towards the issue as if they have "chosen a side", further polarizing an _issue_ that is already heavily polarized and divisive in nature, and furthering the divide by adopting an "us or them" sort of mentality... which is lame, ),
2) or as if he's attempting to make light of the situation altogether. 


both are something that i see done constantly (and to be fair, on both sides--if you don't think i'm being _un_fair, feel free to scan my post history over the last 6 months and you can see me argue _from_ both sides), and neither (when done by _anyone_) does anything to alleviate the problem at hand, but instead smacks very largely of an attempt to validate some personal feeling only vaguely related to the topic at hand. 

does that answer your's and his questions well enough? (and forgive me if i'm late responding, as i'm about to eat ).


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Donovan said:


> @_Metasentient_, @_Mee2_
> 
> i'll do this in one post, and then no more, since obviously you both are either unable or unwilling to see my point and i despise others playing stupid in an attempt to circumvent another's point:


Echoing my sentiments about you exactly, but moving on.



Donovan said:


> a guy makes a video about how he's been raped and the attitude in general towards male rape, and then, almost as a "counter" (in quotations because it's hardly one to begin with), Mee2 dismisses the issue entirely with "why the culture is this way to begin with", as if
> 
> 1) pointing fingers is somehow helpful (if done correctly, it can be, but assigning blame to assign blame without a follow up is pointless, and shows more the emotional response one has towards the issue as if they have "chosen a side", further polarizing an _issue_ that is already heavily polarized and divisive in nature, and furthering the divide by adopting an "us or them" sort of mentality... which is lame, ),
> 2) or as if he's attempting to make light of the situation altogether.


It's nice you can provide your reasons, but that's still your interpretation of his response to a video that is _also _pointing some fingers.

It wasn't _just _a video about a guy getting raped, but as you said, the guy tries to demonstrate the cultural attitude toward it. To which Mee2 responded that the person's argument is already present in current feminist and gender division discussions. According to you, this is the wrong assertion to make, despite its validity. 

This does not detract from the message of the video, which about different gender roles/treatments in society, but posters here seem to be trying to turn into an anti-feminist thing. In this particular thread and context, the video was posted in an attempt to stir incendiary gender arguments, rather than just one guy's experience. 

I think Mee2 was just removing the negative, biased, knee-jerk reactions that could have been incited by the video, which can be perceived as dismissing the issue when it's just setting it straight.


----------



## Apolo (Aug 15, 2014)

Crap like this, when the boys/men don't have proof to help them out is what pisses me off about our society. 
















Had they not had CCTV recordings, those boys would have spent the rest of their lives in prison and on sexual offender lists... Even so, their reputations and lives for a very long time have been ruined.... Sickens me.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Well.. yeah, I'm sure you feel the same way too. If we indoctrinated a ton of boys with PUA ideals and then had them make a misogynistic video, I can't imagine you'd be pleased.. And I have some understanding of it, but I'm not a biologist. Why do you ask?


I can't see how it's fair to assume that these kids have been indoctrinated. And if PUAs were to do the same thing, I'd just criticise their stupid message. I ask because you asserted that this is harmful to children. I was wondering if this was based on something or if you just made it up.


----------



## Apolo (Aug 15, 2014)




----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> I can't see how it's fair to assume that these kids have been indoctrinated. And if PUAs were to do the same thing, I'd just criticise their stupid message. I ask because you asserted that this is harmful to children. I was wondering if this was based on something or if you just made it up.


Not harmful, but a bit dishonest. Obviously these kids will believe anything they're told.
@Apolo Noooooo! Not him.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Not harmful, but a bit dishonest. Obviously these kids will believe anything they're told.
> @_Apolo_ Noooooo! Not him.


Such as that gender roles are still somewhat fixed, that they will statistically earn less for the same job, etc.?

Not defending the video, but now I'm wondering what the argument here is.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Not harmful, but a bit dishonest. Obviously these kids will believe anything they're told.


So we should... Never tell them anything? And I'm not really seeing the dishonesty here. 



Yomiel said:


> @Apolo Noooooo! Not him.


Savour this moment. I think we might actually agree on something.


----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> Such as that gender roles are still somewhat fixed, that they will statistically earn less for the same job, etc.?
> 
> Not defending the video, but now I'm wondering what the argument here is.


Except that's really not the case. And idk which video you were talking about, but I'm not a fan of TheAmazingAtheist and his following.. same goes for ThunderF00t.

@Mee2 No, but it's kind of unfortunate if you pump them full of misinformation before they're old enough to form their own opinions on the issues. I'm really grateful that my parents didn't tell me what to think about politics or religion at a young age so that I could figure it out for myself later.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Mee2 said:


> You're right that feminists also told stories. Better ones. If you compare this to Virginia Woolf's masterpiece, "A Room of One's Own", I will laugh at you.


:laughing:


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> Mee2's posts sometimes frustrate me too. His positions are extremely predictable. If its feminism he supports it, if he could in some way twist it to somehow be against feminism he is vehemently against it.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Also, yeah, I didn't understand how he is trying to discredit this as not true, when the video creator said it was based on his own experiences.


How am I discrediting anything? He wasn't raped, he was, in his own words, "groped and sexually harassed everyday at school for about half a year." How am I denying that this happened? The only thing that I've said is that I'd like to know more about it. 

Also, it's impossible to support all things feminism, as feminists disagree with each other all the time. You'll notice I mentioned that feminist websites praised the video. I wouldn't and I don't think they should have. 

And could you state any clearer that you just think I'm some mindless fool? Come on, that's low.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> This is what annoyed me when I saw the Mee2's original comment. There are all sorts of vague testimonials presented by feminists in the form of music, poetry, or just a personal story and it's accepted as a valid experience to be considered without its motives and possible perversion of the ideas presented being called into question. I don't see why we can't take the same view with this. It doesn't have to invalidate feminist values, nor does it have to prop up MRA values (whatever the hell those are defined as).


I've never said that it invalidates feminist values. Not once. I've never even implied that. I called it meaningless, based on how it can (and has been) interpreted to support multiple positions. That seems like a pretty fair criticism to me. 

The part about feminist stories not being subjected to the same scrutiny is nothing more than a baseless assertion. Specifically, what music/poetry/personal stories haven't received the criticism that they deserve? Even better, what haven't _*I*_ been sufficiently critical of?


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> No one would compare this to something like that.


Not those two things specifically, but he implied suggested a double standard where there probably isn't one. 



Sporadic Aura said:


> This is rather comparable to hundreds of blurbs and blogs online of feminist women sharing stories though.
> 
> There are tons of equally vague, personal stories of feminist women.
> 
> And honestly, I think its reasonable if you view all things that are similar to this as meaningless in a way. But I think its hypocritical to be dismissive of this story but not be dismissive of similar stories by feminist women.


And you assume I wouldn't be critical of them why?


----------



## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> How am I discrediting anything? He wasn't raped, he was, in his own words, "groped and sexually harassed everyday at school for about half a year." How am I denying that this happened? The only thing that I've said is that I'd like to know more about it.
> 
> Also, it's impossible to support all things feminism, as feminists disagree with each other all the time. You'll notice I mentioned that feminist websites praised the video. I wouldn't and I don't think they should have.
> 
> And could you state any clearer that you just think I'm some mindless fool? Come on, that's low.


I felt you were trying to discredit the fact that he was abused at all, in any way. "I know people who were abused and they don't talk about their experiences in that way".

And, come on man. I don't think you're some mindless fool. I just think that you are biased when it comes to feminism. 

Meaning that if this video was posted by a feminist poster and was a female in the video you definitely wouldn't have posted in the same way. That's what I honestly think.


----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> I've never said that it invalidates feminist values. Not once. I've never even implied that. I called it meaningless, based on how it can (and has been) interpreted to support multiple positions. That seems like a pretty fair criticism to me.
> 
> The part about feminist stories not being subjected to the same scrutiny is nothing more than a baseless assertion. Specifically, what music/poetry/personal stories haven't received the criticism that they deserve? Even better, what haven't _*I*_ been sufficiently critical of?


I didn't really mean to single you out specifically.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> I felt you were trying to discredit the fact that he was abused at all, in any way. "I know people who were abused and they don't talk about their experiences in that way".


No, I just think he's a bad storyteller. I don't think he'd talk about what really happened to him in the same way. 



Sporadic Aura said:


> And, come on man. I don't think you're some mindless fool. I just think that you are biased when it comes to feminism.


"If its feminism he supports it, if he could in some way twist it to somehow be against feminism he is vehemently against it." Tell me, what kind of person thinks like that? And calling me biased (and implying that you aren't), really isn't any better. 



Sporadic Aura said:


> Meaning that if this video was posted by a feminist poster and was a female in the video you definitely wouldn't have posted in the same way. That's what I honestly think.


I wouldn't have posted in the exact same way because I wouldn't have to worry about MRAs misinterpreting it. But I'd still think it was meaningless and I'd still be sceptical about whether it actually happened to her. Not that a woman could make that video, it being about the expectations placed on men and all.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> I didn't really mean to single you out specifically.


Funny how you mentioned me specifically.


----------



## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> Funny how you mentioned me specifically.


Lol, I shouldn't have jumped back into this since I'm just not that interested in the discussion, but I'll briefly elaborate. Your initial comment was vague and seemed to imply that the video wasn't valid because it is well known that the gender binary sucks. I thought that was hypocritical given your stance on other people's experiences, but your elaboration is fine (I disagree with the reasoning, but fair enough).


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

I've seen this video previously on Tumblr.

Another reason why gender roles and the gender binary suck, emotions are a natural thing that's part of human nature and there's nothing wrong about admitting you're weak, you're flawed, you've been abused, if anything it's a sign of strength to me. Because you die inside and fly back to life. I wish he expanded more on why rape of any kind should be condemned and its survivors given proper respect. It's an obvious thing, really, but I'm baffled by the fact that people needed an "awareness boost" video to realize this.


----------



## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

> No, I just think he's a bad storyteller. I don't think he'd talk about what really happened to him in the same way.


My initial thought was that something similar happened to him and this was just how he was comfortable talking about it. I mean I can't really fault him for not wanting to openly talk about his exact experiences, sharing them with everyone.



> "If its feminism he supports it, if he could in some way twist it to somehow be against feminism he is vehemently against it." Tell me, what kind of person thinks like that? And calling me biased (and implying that you aren't), really isn't any better.


This might have been unfair, admittedly. 

I don't believe I have ever seen you debate against a feminist poster, however (might be wrong). And considering I mostly see you post in threads about feminism, and you often debate with people, I would have expected to have seen you do that if you really were unbiased.

And yeah, I think I'm biased in some ways, but I do think I try to be pretty objective in discussions like this.



> I wouldn't have posted in the exact same way because I wouldn't have to worry about MRAs misinterpreting it. But I'd still think it was meaningless and I'd still be sceptical about whether it actually happened to her. Not that a woman could make that video, it being about the expectations placed on men and all.


If this is true, then fair enough.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> I did not belittle anything. I called a specific video meaningless.


speaks for itself, or do you not see the connection?



> I never called the video fraudulent and nor could I; he was perfectly honest about the fact that it was made up.


sorry for misrepresenting you... or did i? if he had experiences of sexual abuse, and then decided to follow in the same vein as others before him, in the attempt to catch the ear of his audience, in order to bring a different light or perspective onto how we view male sexual abuse, should the point be: "well, it's not 100% accurate in regards to his personal stories, and he's obviously unwilling to share explicit details about them, so, it's basically all made up"... when in reality, you do not know the "personal details", and so do not know the extent. all you know is that it's been _fictionalized_. so far, we know that he used a different name. so far, that is the only evidence of fictionalization we have. not that it's been "totally made up". 

but that's hardly the point. the point is that you immediately became suspicious, and looked to discredit a video that attempts to shed light onto his/male problems, when i'm sure that you wouldn't be so quick to do it if the message had been portrayed by a female/about female problems. and in doing so, you play directly into the problem he's addressing. how do you not see this? 



> The reason I want to hear about what really happened isn't because I think he's a fraud, it's because a few things about his story didn't really add up. I've never seen someone react to trauma in that way.


irrelevant, we do not all act the same way towards trauma, and the fact he doesn't speak about it as if he were one of the women you've personally heard speak about trauma, means nothing. all it does is show your own paranoia and bias, and give credence to his message altogether. 



> You're right that feminists also told stories. Better ones. If you compare this to Virginia Woolf's masterpiece, "A Room of One's Own", I will laugh at you.


oh no, please don't laugh at me (lol)... i will compare the two. not in the sense of "turmoil suffered", but in intent, in the method used, and in the attempt to send a message that goes against popular prevailing thought (that is convinced it is somehow in the right). there is nothing wrong, morally, with being aware of the similarity. 



> How am I invalidating anything? It's a made up story.


if it being fictionalized is what you have a problem with, then why do you give so much weight to virginia woolf? her lectures were fictionalized, and so by your own judgement shouldn't be noteworthy--right?



> When did I say it doesn't matter when men are raped? Heck, when did I even come close to saying that? :/


the thing is, you imply it by skirting the issue and focusing on why this matter is "trivial" or "meaningless", when it really lands squarely in the grounds of those you follow. you're a hypocrite, lol. how do you not see this? 



> So much love in this post.


while i find your smarminess amusing, i can't find the love you speak of. :happy:


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Lol, I shouldn't have jumped back into this since I'm just not that interested in the discussion, but I'll briefly elaborate. Your initial comment was vague and seemed to imply that the video wasn't valid because it is well known that the gender binary sucks. I thought that was hypocritical given your stance on other people's experiences, but your elaboration is fine (I disagree with the reasoning, but fair enough).


I'm not suite sure what you mean by the last part but I don't really want to ask you to elaborate either. Yes, my first post in this thread was vague. It's understandable that you didn't know what I was talking about and you had every right to challenge me on it. Admittedly, my own thoughts weren't really organised at the time. Nor had I done any research, obviously.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> How am I discrediting anything? He wasn't raped, he was, in his own words, "groped and sexually harassed everyday at school for about half a year."


let me follow in _your_ vein now, and say that just because it's been stated otherwise by bailey, that i'm now _suspicious_ that he feels too insecure in this modern age to truly voice his trauma. you know, because there's people like you who will preemptively view it as meaningless.



> No, I just think he's a bad storyteller. I don't think he'd talk about what really happened to him in the same way.


forgive him for not being you... have you ever thought that maybe what he did, and how he did it, was to cause people to feel differently about a topic? is that "meaningless"?


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Hotes McGoats said:


> I've seen this video previously on Tumblr.
> 
> Another reason why gender roles and the gender binary suck, emotions are a natural thing that's part of human nature and there's nothing wrong about admitting you're weak, you're flawed, you've been abused, if anything it's a sign of strength to me. Because you die inside and fly back to life. I wish he expanded more on why rape of any kind should be condemned and its survivors given proper respect. It's an obvious thing, really, but I'm baffled by the fact that people needed an "awareness boost" video to realize this.


me too, in terms of "uh, why do people react that they do"... but not so much in terms of the fact that people _do_ react in the ways he spoke about.


----------



## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Donovan said:


> me too, in terms of "uh, why do people react that they do"... but not so much in terms of the fact that people _do_ react in the ways he spoke about.


I'm also referring to the comments and this discussion, why is this some kind of groundbreaking news?
But I'm sadly fully aware that this is the standard reaction in real life, rape was always treated as a joke or dismissed, especially male rape or female perpetrated rape and the lack of empathy is really disheartening. Not surprising but disheartening.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> speaks for itself, or do you not see the connection?


I didn't belittle his experiences because he didn't even speak about his experiences. 



Donovan said:


> sorry for misrepresenting you... or did i? if he had experiences of sexual abuse, and then decided to follow in the same vein as others before him, in the attempt to catch the ear of his audience, in order to bring a different light or perspective onto how we view male sexual abuse, should the point be: "well, it's not 100% accurate in regards to his personal stories, and he's obviously unwilling to share explicit details about them, so, it's basically all made up"... when in reality, you do not know the "personal details", and so do not know the extent. all you know is that it's been _fictionalized_. so far, we know that he used a different name. so far, that is the only evidence of fictionalization we have. not that it's been "totally made up".


No, we know more than that. He said that he was "groped and sexually harassed everyday at school for about half a year." I don't mean to say that he's obliged to share intimate details, by the way. Obviously that's not an easy thing to do and I'd never ask him to do it. But I will say that his story was shallow and one that I find difficult to make sense of. 



Donovan said:


> but that's hardly the point. the point is that you immediately became suspicious, and looked to discredit a video that attempts to shed light onto his/male problems, when i'm sure that you wouldn't be so quick to do it if the message had been portrayed by a female/about female problems. and in doing so, you play directly into the problem he's addressing. how do you not see this?


Either that or it was just a bad video. And your own assumptions (about me) are shining through quite clearly here. How do you know I wouldn't be as sceptical of a woman's story? 



Donovan said:


> irrelevant, we do not all act the same way towards trauma, and the fact he doesn't speak about it as if he were one of the women you've personally heard speak about trauma, means nothing. all it does is show your own paranoia and bias, and give credence to his message altogether.


Right, but do you just believe every story you hear? I doubt you do. Like everyone else, you believe the stories that you can make sense of, or the ones that you know are supported by empirical evidence. 



Donovan said:


> oh no, please don't laugh at me (lol)... i will compare the two. not in the sense of "turmoil suffered", but in intent, in the method used, and in the attempt to send a message that goes against popular prevailing thought (that is convinced it is somehow in the right). there is nothing wrong, morally, with being aware of the similarity.


Your comparison is meaningless. Yes, they both told a story, but Woolf told a brilliant one where Bailey told a poor one. I'm totally justified in taking Woolf a lot more seriously. 



Donovan said:


> if it being fictionalized is what you have a problem with, then why do you give so much weight to virginia woolf? her lectures were fictionalized, and so by your own judgement shouldn't be noteworthy--right?


I don't have a problem with it being fictionalised, I have a problem with it being shallow and hard to make sense of. 



Donovan said:


> the thing is, you imply it by skirting the issue and focusing on why this matter is "trivial" or "meaningless", when it really lands squarely in the grounds of those you follow. you're a hypocrite, lol. how do you not see this?


I don't see it because you're wrong. I called the video meaningless based on its shallowness and ambiguity, among other things. I never said anything about male rape victims generally and despite you putting the word "trivial" in inverted commas, you're not quoting me; I never used it. 



Donovan said:


> while i find your smarminess amusing, i can't find the love you speak of. :happy:


Hello condescending smiley face. Move love, I'm sure.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> let me follow in _your_ vein now, and say that just because it's been stated otherwise by bailey, that i'm now _suspicious_ that he feels too insecure in this modern age to truly voice his trauma. you know, because there's people like you who will preemptively view it as meaningless.


Maybe? Honestly, I don't see how it's relevant. His story was still weird and shallow. That it was made up makes sense to me because it partially explains said weirdness and shallowness. If he spoke about the abuse that he really did suffer (and, for the record, I'm absolutely convinced that he has been abused - the articles that he wrote on the GMP hint strongly at it as well), I don't think it would come across as weird and shallow. 



Donovan said:


> forgive him for not being you... have you ever thought that maybe what he did, and how he did it, was to cause people to feel differently about a topic? is that "meaningless"?


I never said his reasons were meaningless, I said the video was. I'm sure he was trying to get people to feel differently, I just don't think he did a very good job of it.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

@Mee2

the "inverted commas" (or quotes, as they're also commonly known to be), is something i do frequently and does not signify a direct quote, but is more of a general notion another may be, or may have, conveyed--as opposed to an actual quote... but, "trivial" is not too far off from "meaningless". 
and lol: my "smiley" (there we go again) is not meant to be condescending--doth project too much--but was included because i was literally smiling and was amused by... whatever your attempt at saying "so much love", and "move love", was meant to do or to be.

as for the rest... the only things i will say, is that you do adhere to a pattern on this site, that can be found throughout society, that also seems to be the reason behind this video. the fact that you cannot find the reason, i believe, is because it was aimed at people who would have an adverse reaction to said video.
you are very biased in your approach, to the point of unconscious dishonesty, and your opinions of another's trauma and the way they convey said trauma being "trivial"/"meaningless" is not only offensive, but falls into the category of "who the hell cares?". unless you had a point you'd actually like to make, other than in expressing your personal aesthetic tastes in regards to another's display of their misery, i'd have to ask you what point _you_ had in even typing up a response. but i won't, because i feel that it'll go nowhere, just as this entire exchange has gone nowhere. 

and now, i'll find a different way to burn off this insomnia (in other words, i won't be responding tonight). take care.


----------



## unoriginal (Dec 22, 2013)

Rape is hillarious. That seems sort of biased coming from a guy.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> @Mee2
> 
> the "inverted commas" (or quotes, as they're also commonly known to be), is something i do frequently and does not signify a direct quote, but is more of a general notion another may be, or may have, conveyed--as opposed to an actual quote... but, "trivial" is not too far off from "meaningless".
> and lol: my "smiley" (there we go again) is not meant to be condescending--doth project too much--but was included because i was literally smiling and was amused by... whatever your attempt at saying "so much love", and "move love", was meant to do or to be.
> ...


Ugh. These games are such a bore. You're not even arguing with me any more and I'm not even sure if you even want to. You're just telling the world all that's wrong with me - as if that's something the people are actually interested in. Yawn. 

Your whole post is based on a straw man, by the way. His video isn't meaningless because men don't get raped or because I don't care when men get raped; it's meaningless because it provides no insight into the problem. Nothing that could be used to better understand it or solve it. My money's on you still thinking I'm a moron though.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> My money's on you still thinking I'm a moron though.


dude... i don't think you're dumb. in fact, i think it takes intelligence to mentally dance around all night like you did (not that it makes you right, but it definitely doesn't show "stupidity").


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> dude... i don't think you're dumb. in fact, i think it takes intelligence to mentally dance around all night like you did (not that it makes you right, but it definitely doesn't show "stupidity").


"Moron" was meant to capture all the character flaws you've been implying I possess throughout the discussion. For example, "biased in your approach, to the point of unconscious dishonesty."


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> "Moron" was meant to capture all the character flaws you've been implying I possess throughout the discussion. For example, "biased in your approach, to the point of unconscious dishonesty."


and i fully believe what i said, but you are conflating (what i said) with "moron". the two don't line up. i've met--and i'm sure i'll continue to meet--people who are intelligent, yet have unconscious biases/unresolved conflicts that keep them in a state of "unconscious dishonesty".


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> and i fully believe what i said, but you are conflating (what i said) with "moron". the two don't line up. i've met--and i'm sure i'll continue to meet--people who are intelligent, yet have unconscious biases/unresolved conflicts that keep them in a state of "unconscious dishonesty".


And so I was right. I tell you that your pest was based on a straw man, yet you continue to think whatever crap you already thought about me. What a surprise.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> And so I was right. I tell you that your pest was based on a straw man, yet you continue to think whatever crap you already thought about me. What a surprise.


think whatever you'd like, man. and no, it's not surprising. people are and will be judged continuously by what they say and what they believe.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

and again, @Mee2, what i've said about you hardly qualifies you as a "bad person". if that were the case, every person on the planet would be a "bad person", only in slightly different ways, as their biases will not all be the same.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> think whatever you'd like, man. and no, it's not surprising. people are and will be judged continuously by what they say and what they believe.


That was sarcasm. Of course it's not surprising that you still think I'm biased beyond belief, even though it turns out I wasn't saying what you thought I was.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> and again, @Mee2, what i've said about you hardly qualifies you as a "bad person". if that were the case, every person on the planet would be a "bad person", only in slightly different ways, as their biases will not all be the same.


One might wonder just how bad I'd have to be then. I mean, if being ridiculously biased and not caring about the suffering of men doesn't get me there, what does? I think you're just trying to cover up the fact that your post was little more than one big personal attack.


----------



## perpetuallyreticent (Sep 24, 2014)

So wait, are some of you arguing that since his story might not be real, that it takes away from the message the video itself is trying to present? 

His story being real or not does not take from the message it projects. If anything, you can now look at it as a hypothetical scenario, that in fact actually has happened to many boys/young men. It doesn't change the facts that the video inherently presents to the viewers; That rape is overlooked when it happens to men, and this is problematic.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> One might wonder just how bad I'd have to be then. I mean, if being ridiculously biased and not caring about the suffering of men doesn't get me there, what does? I think you're just trying to cover up the fact that your post was little more than one big personal attack.


no, but your continuous attempts to get me to fight with you doesn't do much for your argument other than show that _you_ don't like what i've said. 


there are much worse things in life than what amounts to a "mild" (in terms of what it could be in reality) bias, and i don't believe that your's in particular is going to bring about some kind of holocaust-like event. i'm not hiding from anything--i've told you directly time and again what i believe, and i haven't taken it back nor have i contradicted myself. 

and i'm not going to keep the same back-and-forth going just to prove that "i'm not going back on my own words".


----------



## wums (Nov 25, 2013)

Honestly though this title is pretty triggering. I know it's not meant to be but... sorry ><


----------



## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Honestly guys, I think this conversation is going in circles. Is it that important to continue this particular conversation? Idk, I'm thinking maybe just agree to disagree here and move on.


----------



## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

wums said:


> Honestly though this title is pretty triggering. I know it's not meant to be but... sorry ><


I think its one of those instances of 'post the most attention seeking title so more people will view the thread', type of thing. Pretty common, I've seen tons of examples of that.


----------



## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

It all comes down to biology, namely how we reproduce, and the challenges that poses for each gender. Society is a very new thing and evolution is a pretty slow process in a species as big and complex as ours.


----------



## Sangmu (Feb 18, 2014)

I've rarely been able to express my emotions without being labeled a drama queen or accused of having some mental or hormonal disorder. I'm very detached from my emotions for that reason and tend to always take the blame in a situation, even if it's very clear to an outsider that I'm right. I even let the true offender spread their one-sided story while I stay silent. My role is to be "the irrational one who made a mistake" and I submit to that role pretty quickly.

In my experience, men are allowed to express anger and sadness as long as they have a highly masculine phenotype and occupation. Their feelings are then accepted by others simply as _convictions_. Their emotion is justifiable. Everyone else either actually is a woman or is acting like a woman.

Alpha men run humanity. They dominate 95% men and 99.99% women. This is nothing new. Zeus, a highly emotional and capricious psychopath, was King of the Gods for a reason. He is representative of this small minority of men. Ironically, they likely are what advanced humanity to what we know it as today, but now we can survive enough on our own to actively loathe them and make up words like words like "patriarchy".


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> no, but your continuous attempts to get me to fight with you doesn't do much for your argument other than show that _you_ don't like what i've said.
> 
> 
> there are much worse things in life than what amounts to a "mild" (in terms of what it could be in reality) bias, and i don't believe that your's in particular is going to bring about some kind of holocaust-like event. i'm not hiding from anything--i've told you directly time and again what i believe, and i haven't taken it back nor have i contradicted myself.
> ...


Pointing out personal attacks means I'm trying to get you to fight with me? How? Wouldn't a "fight" (because, this is the internet, yo) just be more personal attacks? lol. 

I think you're already going back on your words, actually. You originally called me "very biased to the point of unconscious dishonesty." Now my bias is "mild." 

You can stop replying whenever you want. I don't mind.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> Pointing out personal attacks means I'm trying to get you to fight with me? How? Wouldn't a "fight" (because, this is the internet, yo) just be more personal attacks? lol.
> 
> I think you're already going back on your words, actually. You originally called me "very biased to the point of unconscious dishonesty." Now my bias is "mild."
> 
> You can stop replying whenever you want. I don't mind.


your unconscious dishonesty is mild in comparison to, or relative towards, reality. it can be much worse, or much "better", than other biases. do you understand now?

edit: and was only said because i've obviously hurt you. this doesn't undo my opinion, or what i've said previously, but was an attempt to put what i said into perspective _for you_.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> your unconscious dishonesty is mild in comparison to, or relative towards, reality. it can be much worse, or much "better", than other biases. do you understand now?
> 
> edit: and was only said because i've obviously hurt you. this doesn't undo my opinion, or what i've said previously, but was an attempt to put what i said into perspective _for you_.


Yes, I understand perfectly. You said something stupid and meaningless before, and now you're saying something stupid and meaningless with softer language.


----------



## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

WhateverLolaWants said:


> I've rarely been able to express my emotions without being labeled a drama queen or accused of having some mental or hormonal disorder. I'm very detached from my emotions for that reason and tend to always take the blame in a situation,


Well that isn't healthy or entirely rational, and thus why people probably accuse you of being a drama queen.


----------



## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Mee2 said:


> If you go back to my first post in this thread, I think I said that it was less meaningful than people think it is. Calling it "meaningless" from then on was just me being lazy. Right, it's not black and white and there is _some_ meaning there. I just see much less than most people.


It served as a good lesson for us to critically digest the certain messages we see in media about issues such as male rape, and how we as a society may contribute to it.



> I think that's still a little ambiguous and the idea that people always take female rape seriously is false anyway. Not that there's no conversation to be had about men being raped, I just don't think his video is a very good starting point.


That wasn't what the video stated. The video stated that as a general rule, we see male rape as funny in culture, and we don't see female rape as funny (the exception is if they're unattractive). Now, due to our culture, there's a threshold that women experience that we see many cases of rape as normal male domination and forgo the enthusiastic consent (but, again, the video didn't argue against that). It didn't say we don't victim-blame women. It targeted a certain trope that says: on a broad spectrum, rape is funny when it happens to men, and we don't hold this specific standard for female rape.

Most of the victim-blaming against women doesn't say that rape against women is hilarious. It says that the rape didn't happen, she was asking for it, she drank too much, she wore too little, or she could have prevented it. But none say that all rape against women is hilarious, unless you're at an MRA blog.



> I haven't seen those films and they sound stupid so I don't really want to. Is that their message? Sure, I'll take your word for it.
> 
> I'm not hung up on it as much as I think it explains why the video seemed shallow to me.


But a lot of other people did. At least two of those films were big financial successes in the box office.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> I got a notification about the quote, actually. Obviously you edited it out, but for some reason I still got a notification. Leaving it blank... Well, I would've guessed easily enough.
> 
> My point about "fighting" was just that whatever you said there was obviously a lot worse than anything I've said so far. What does that even mean, anyway? Do you think I want to start hurling insults at you? If that's what I wanted to do, I'd be doing it. All I'm doing, as far as I can tell, is pointing out all the personal attacks that you've been directing at me. I don't think I'm giving any in return. There's certainly none in this post.
> 
> ...


no, it wouldn't have been "worse" because it would have been _true_--as in laying out clearly what you have been doing, while you try to save face--but still "mean"/hurtful all the same. and at this point, you're being ganged up on and no matter true i _think/believe_ something to be, i don't want to just pile it all on you along with everyone else. 

that's what i meant/my general feelings about this/where i'm coming from/honest opinion.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Torai said:


> It served as a good lesson for us to critically digest the certain messages we see in media about issues such as male rape, and how we as a society may contribute to it.


Maybe that's what he was trying to do, but I don't think it was limited to that, or as clearly about that as you think. Reading through this thread, you can see that a number of people have interpreted it in different ways (common themes, obviously). As have others all over the internet. I don't have a problem with your interpretation, I just don't think it was so clear. The ambiguity is partly why I called it meaningless. 



Torai said:


> That wasn't what the video stated. The video stated that as a general rule, we see male rape as funny in culture, and we don't see female rape as funny (the exception is if they're unattractive). Now, due to our culture, there's a threshold that women experience that we see many cases of rape as normal male domination and forgo the enthusiastic consent (but, again, the video didn't argue against that). It didn't say we don't victim-blame women. It targeted a certain trope that says: on a broad spectrum, rape is funny when it happens to men, and we don't hold this specific standard for female rape.
> 
> Most of the victim-blaming against women doesn't say that rape against women is hilarious. It says that the rape didn't happen, she was asking for it, she drank too much, she wore too little, or she could have prevented it. But none say that all rape against women is hilarious, unless you're at an MRA blog.


I think something got lost here. That part that you quoted wasn't in response to the video, it was in response to another poster who said that rape of women is immediately taken seriously. For the record, I don't think that the video necessarily has a misogynistic message; rather, I think the message is ambiguous and could be used by misogynists (and feminists, and probably pretty much everyone else). 



Torai said:


> But a lot of other people did. At least two of those films were big financial successes in the box office.


If you say that they were bad, then I'll take your word for it, but I should probably actually watch them before I comment.


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> no, it wouldn't have been "worse" because it would have been _true_--as in laying out clearly what you have been doing, while you try to save face--but still "mean"/hurtful all the same. and at this point, you're being ganged up on and no matter true i _think/believe_ something to be, i don't want to just pile it all on you along with everyone else.
> 
> that's what i meant/my general feelings about this/where i'm coming from/honest opinion.


Aww, how sweet. I knew you loved me. Seriously though, was it true and relevant or true and irrelevant? Because if it's relevant, go for it. I can handle it (I'm also pretty curious...)


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> Aww, how sweet. I knew you loved me. Seriously though, was it true and relevant or true and irrelevant? Because if it's relevant, go for it. I can handle it (I'm also pretty curious...)


you're right, i do love you. :wink:


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> you're right, i do love you. :wink:


Enough to reveal what you said before and get an infraction? lol


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> Enough to reveal what you said before and get an infraction? lol


lol...  dear god, it wouldn't have gotten me an infraction dude, because none of it would have been a "personal attack" or outright cursing, or slurs... just truth, that has obviously hurt you to the point that you have continued this. so, me saying it, in light of everyone else quoting you (for you _you've_ said), just seemed "mean" at that point. 

understand? lol, jeez, give it a rest.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

Donovan said:


> never mind. way too mean.


You're so cute how you care about other people's feelings 
<3


----------



## Vacious (Nov 2, 2014)

Man do people get off track or what? 

The video itself is sad and depressing, but that kind of culture already existed.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

DaphneDelRey said:


> You're so cute how you care about other people's feelings
> <3


lol... after the ways that others react to my reactions--without ever having a sound argument of their own, or an actual defense for the "poor attacked ones"--makes me wonder if you're joking. 


but if not, thank you kindly ma'am. :happy:


----------



## lackofmops (Mar 13, 2014)

I saw the title of this thread and was prepared to crack some skulls.

Then I watched the video. This is some serious stuff. Respect for posting this.



Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I bet no one would have cared about this if it wasn't pointed out.


This has actually been an issue I've struggled with for a while. Gender norms affect everyone.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

Donovan said:


> lol... after the ways that others react to my reactions--without ever having a sound argument of their own, or an actual defense for the "poor attacked ones"--makes me wonder if you're joking.
> 
> 
> but if not, thank you kindly ma'am. :happy:


Nope not joking!

I've had enough of that behaviour to last me a life time! So I've stopped caring now, which is why I find it cute that you do
:happy:


----------



## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Donovan said:


> lol...  dear god, it wouldn't have gotten me an infraction dude, because none of it would have been a "personal attack" or outright cursing, or slurs... just truth, that has obviously hurt you to the point that you have continued this. so, me saying it, in light of everyone else quoting you (for you _you've_ said), just seemed "mean" at that point.
> 
> understand? lol, jeez, give it a rest.


I'm still going with the infraction theory.


----------



## perpetuallyreticent (Sep 24, 2014)

[No message]


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

DaphneDelRey said:


> Nope not joking!
> 
> I've had enough of that behaviour to last me a life time! So I've stopped caring now, which is why I find it cute that you do
> :happy:


well, thank you again!


----------



## Deity (Dec 26, 2014)

That is a very intense video.


----------



## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

I like the point the video made and I think the title and presentation are well done.

I think the labels and image crafting we are culturally ingrained to do, indeed stem from biology and historical prevalence of similar male and female stereotypes. I absolutely disagree that since these attitudes take a long time to change that we should not try. We should try. It is very clear to anyone who knows personality that men and women each express all personality types, gender roles, and orientations. It is true that culture is only very slowly catching up with that and as a result anyone not fitting the stereotype will have a harder road. 

Getting the message out is a wise effort.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Shouldn't this be in the Critical Thinking section?


----------

