# penis entering a vagina..is it symbolic violence?



## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

Think about it. A man is impaling a woman, symbolically. 
Thrusting to tease her clit..irritating it. 

Is there such a thing about men that's not about the use of some sort of force? :angry:


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

LOL, wuuut?


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## TootsieBear267 (May 30, 2014)

In the wise words of Roy Garber: "No!"


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## Bugs (May 13, 2014)

Emerald Legend said:


> Think about it. A man is impaling a woman, symbolically.
> Thrusting to tease her clit..irritating it.
> 
> Is there such a thing about men that's not about the use of some sort of force? :angry:


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

Ace Face said:


> LOL, wuuut?













ya'know?


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Emerald Legend said:


> ya'know?


Sex as symbolic violence? Das raep.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

This is outrageous
It's the opposite, *the man is the victim!!!*
the penis is naively passing by while an aggressive, hungry vagina uses tricks to try to eat the penis, devouring it while the man struggles in pain and the woman laughs. The only difference with the black widow is that spider eats it killing it, women like to torture men so they keep them alive so they can devour them again and again in terrible agony.

Clear? it's the representation of carnivorous entity devouring parts of a human being.

It is disgusting 



*Now seriously OP,* don't have the quote, link or source but years ago while reading lots and lots of anthropological stuff, human behaviour etc I found some sources comparing sex with... several things and it was interesting to see the comparisons (scientifically), but also reading opinions that sex involves signals of violent or at least past violence, but it's also funny how the male orgasm involves most of times holding the woman (holding is not the best word but english is not my first language) it means male tries to keep her steady while the female also tries to pick and hold sperm, and excited (aroused) females seek deeper penetrations to get sperm deeper into the vagina.

Another interesting thing is brain scans showing pleasure and pain using almost the same areas explaining why orgasms trigger faces of pain. In short, many things in nature are original but most of it its reusing other forms of expression and other parts of the same brain, the same with sex. Sex is cooperative, so seeing from this angle makes sense, it shouldn't be that easy as inserting, orgasm, the end.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

I'll just leave this here...

"PIV is always rape, ok?"

... now go forth and marvel at the stupidity of such self-proclaimed 'radfems'...

And don't forget to read the comments, too.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Well.....I probably would have said this when I was 12.

It seems like a theory to cover up tocophobia.

Is there any real use to posting these ideas? I mean the posting of ideas of uber victimisation of genders. There seems to be too many drugs being taken or not enough when thinking these things through.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

bethdeth said:


> Well.....I probably would have said this when I was 12.
> 
> It seems like a theory to cover up tocophobia.
> 
> Is there any real use to posting these ideas? I mean the posting of ideas of uber victimisation of genders. There seems to be too many drugs being taken or not enough when thinking these things through.


All musing need to be liberated.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

Bugs said:


>


Hopefully not on the Titanic crossing the Atlantic.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Emerald Legend said:


> All musing need to be liberated.


There are probably thousands, millions even who fantasise over killing every shitty boss or worker in their place of employ too but to liberate their musings only brings fear and ostracism.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

HAL said:


> I'll just leave this here...
> 
> "PIV is always rape, ok?"
> 
> ...


Please tell me this is satire..

please please please please please

:bored:


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## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

I once was kind of drunk having sex with an ex. I laughed because looking down, it looked more like a heart.

You say violence. 
I say love.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Well, um, no.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Emerald Legend said:


> Think about it. A man is impaling a woman, symbolically.
> Thrusting to tease her clit..irritating it.
> 
> Is there such a thing about men that's not about the use of some sort of force? :angry:



It could be violence, but it also could be a joining. A woman opens herself up to a man willingly, like the flower opening it's petals. Ultimately, penetration leads to the mingling of sperm with the egg and new life is created. 

I think you make a case for men and women as equal compliments of each other in that the woman has the power to soften the man's force.


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## aphinion (Apr 30, 2013)

No.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Poor Richard gets so much hate, he's not really a bad guy most of the time. l too likely would have said something like this at 12, to even 17 years old.

Could be framed so many different ways so it isn't like l disagree vehemently, it's all about intention and perspective, like with many things.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

HAL said:


> I'll just leave this here...
> 
> "PIV is always rape, ok?"
> 
> ...


Seems legit. 

Come to think of it... Have I been socially conditioned from birth to pay outrageous prices for everyday items? And think its voluntary?

Dear God... I've been raped and robbed for years and didn't even know it. Those clever patriarchs.


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## LandOfTheSnakes (Sep 7, 2013)

Emerald Legend said:


> Think about it. A man is impaling a woman, symbolically.
> Thrusting to tease her clit..irritating it.
> 
> Is there such a thing about men that's not about the use of some sort of force? :angry:


Are you sure you're okay haha? This and saying that peoples' auras are visible light... if you didn't have over 2000 posts I'd think you were trolling or something.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

LandOfTheSnakes said:


> Are you sure you're okay haha? This and saying that peoples' auras are visible light... if you didn't have over 2000 posts I'd think you were trolling or something.



But you can totally see human auras, no? :sad:

It is visible, so it could be detected?


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## LandOfTheSnakes (Sep 7, 2013)

Emerald Legend said:


> But you can totally see human auras, no? :sad:
> 
> It is visible, so it could be detected?


Are you saying you can see them with your eyes? See definitely isn't the word I would use... it's more of a thing I feel :tongue:


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

LandOfTheSnakes said:


> Are you saying you can see them with your eyes? See definitely isn't the word I would use... it's more of a thing I feel :tongue:


Vibe is to feel as aura is to see..that's my understanding at least. 
"There's an air of aura about you"
"I can _see _your green aura"
etc.

There are apparently categories of aura..like indigo, green, violet, etc. If it wasn't assumed visible, where would these categories come from?

As for me, yes, I've seen aura..or maybe it was eye fatigue/light play, hence that thread I made about auras. If it was visible, it would be more visible in the dark, right? Since it's a 'glow' with color categories.


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## LandOfTheSnakes (Sep 7, 2013)

Emerald Legend said:


> Vibe is to feel as aura is to see..that's my understanding at least.
> "There's an air of aura about you"
> "I can _see _your green aura"
> etc.
> ...


Maybe it's some sort of synesthesia as opposed to actually seeing auras? I know I definitely don't have the ability to see them and it didn't seem like anyone else in that thread did either haha.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Wouldn't be the first time I've heard of an INFJ seeing auras. Does make me wonder if there's any real trend there, or just a coincidence of type.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Emerald Legend said:


> Think about it. A man is impaling a woman, symbolically.
> Thrusting to tease her clit..irritating it.
> 
> Is there such a thing about men that's not about the use of some sort of force? :angry:


Lol 'irritating'. Hmm.


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## Pinion (Jul 31, 2013)

People keep telling me that when they hug me they're expressing love, but I see it for what it really is: symbolic entrapment.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

changos said:


> This is outrageous
> It's the opposite, *the man is the victim!!!*
> the penis is naively passing by while an aggressive, hungry vagina uses tricks to try to eat the penis, devouring it while the man struggles in pain and the woman laughs. The only difference with the black widow is that spider eats it killing it, women like to torture men so they keep them alive so they can devour them again and again in terrible agony.









Actually, my friend owns this movie.


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

The thought of sex might bother me more if I wasn't such a carnivore.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Emerald Legend said:


> Think about it. A man is impaling a woman, symbolically.
> Thrusting to tease her clit..irritating it.
> Is there such a thing about men that's not about the use of some sort of force? :angry:


worst attempt at trolling I've seen in a loooong time :laughing:


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

LandOfTheSnakes said:


> Are you saying you can see them with your eyes? See definitely isn't the word I would use... it's more of a thing I feel :tongue:


Vaginas, penises and auras?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

I find this seriously disturbing; and I'm already disturbed!


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

Pinion said:


> People keep telling me that when they hug me they're expressing love, but I see it for what it really is: symbolic entrapment.


It so is!



killerB said:


> Actually, my friend owns this movie.


It was a great movie! Don't worry, with the advent of gene therapy teeth in vag can be possible. means- no more rape!



Swordsman of Mana said:


> worst attempt at trolling I've seen in a loooong time :laughing:













Me? Trolling??


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

At 12 - 17 I thought that most men actually cherished women and that Disney wasn't complete bullshit for the most part (and I was having sex at like 15 almost 16). I love thoughts like these now.

Cheers to you for starting this thread - and for @Chango's contribution too, lol.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

I thought hugging women was just to cop a feel of her breasts without getting slapped. Was I wrong?


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## Magnus von Grapple (May 8, 2014)

All sex is rape perpetrated by the patriarchy.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

I just have to post this again 
PIV is always rape, ok? | radical wind


edit: OH someone else did first, :dry::laughing::tongue:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> I just have to post this again
> PIV is always rape, ok? | radical wind
> edit: OH someone else did first, :dry::laughing::tongue:


I don't see any possible way this couldn't be a joke, but there are no hints at satire throughout the entire article :laughing:


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## Pinion (Jul 31, 2013)

Red Panda said:


> I just have to post this again
> PIV is always rape, ok? | radical wind
> 
> edit: OH someone else did first, :dry::laughing::tongue:


From the comments:
"A big clue is that every hetero female’s “first time” is painful. "
"A woman has to make her body not feel pain via piv over time."

People with no experience or education in sex shouldn't discuss sex as if they have facts. I thought it was only naive 13-year-olds writing fanfiction that thought this.

Is there an actual community based around these concepts? Can I infiltrate and exploit them for humor? Or would that be trolling trolls?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Pinion said:


> From the comments:
> "A big clue is that every hetero female’s “first time” is painful. "
> "A woman has to make her body not feel pain via piv over time."
> 
> ...


I think it's legit. I don't know if there is a community eg. a forum but I think it's real and maybe you can find some site.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Pinion said:


> Yes, it's a very difficult existence. Sometimes I wake up and I'm at some kind of hippie INFJ commune. Everyone is smoking cotton candy and talking about feelings. Then I come in and I'm all RULES AND ORDER AND TE PUT DOWN THOSE DRUMS.
> 
> @_Emerald Legend_ is not a very popular guy anymore.


The Ne doms at the hippie commune would just smother you with naked hugs if you did that.


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## ParetoCaretheStare (Jan 18, 2012)

Is sex violent? If you think about it, every time it happens in the long run someone ends up getting hurt anyway.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Emerald Legend said:


> I'm curious about what they discuss and might join their board..but something tells me I'd probably rage so hard that I might develop multiple personalities to deal with rad fems and then- real life. Since one can pick and choose their gender, I guess one of alternate personality could be made up to be of a middle-class white woman bored and disgusted with the treatment of women by society..that'll cause me not to rage at those feminists and even blend in. And when I snap back, I'm your good guy Emerald Legend again..
> 
> Solid plan?


Why would you rage? Their ideas about painful sex and fear of catching babies does not sound like a turn on. I mean really what is there to rage about? It's hardly likely they will want sex then accuse you of rape after. It's the fear of pregnancy and pain of sex that keeps them from wanting it.....so why beat yourself up thinking about it?


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## nuut (Jan 13, 2014)

i hope OP is trolling


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

Other mammals do it too. It's just a way of reproduction, and if it's a painful experience then either you lack lubrication or the man is forcing it in when she's not ready.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Aquamarine said:


> Other mammals do it too. It's just a way of reproduction, and if it's a painful experience then either you lack lubrication or the man is forcing it in when she's not ready.


I hope this infers that biting, scratching and walking off mid thrust is a totally acceptable response. :kitteh:


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

bethdeth said:


> I hope this infers that biting, scratching and walking off mid thrust is a totally acceptable response. :kitteh:


For BDSM people, yes.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Aquamarine said:


> For BDSM people, yes.


LOL. Thank the perverted lords of the unholy for lube then, huh?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Are you an Andrea Dworkin fan by any chance?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Um...no. Only if the vagina is not properly lubricated and the woman doesn't want it. Even my most sadistic or dominant lovers have expressed alarm at things like vaginal dryness due to condoms. Real honest to God sadism and violence is rape. Normal heterosexual men want their partners to WANT THEM. A big part of sex is psychological, feeling wanted and desired. Even the biggest jerks I have dated have done everything short of acrobatics to get me off.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

bethdeth said:


> Ummm no. Serial killers kill people. Women who don't want sex don't have sex.....
> 
> I hope you can see the difference there.
> 
> I was actually thinking of the women going to the bar to not have sex (rather than actually chopping pee pees off).



That's not true. There are women who don't want sex who do it for other reasons: money, security, acceptance.

I am not one of those, but I know they exist.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> Are you an Andrea Dworkin fan by any chance?


Who me? Never heard of her before. 
:kitteh: represented a joke. My bad.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

bethdeth said:


> I hope this infers that biting, scratching and walking off mid thrust is a totally acceptable response. :kitteh:



My current lover and I do all of those things. I hopped off him to turn on the air conditioner just a couple of weeks ago. We have also smacked each other. And no there's no real violence with whips or paddles or fists or knives. All that stuff is within the range of normal, though maybe leaning more towards BDSM. I could never be satisfied in a relationship where those milder aspects of violence were not acceptable.

That doesn't mean all penetration or sex is violence though. Some people are excruciatingly gentle.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Emerald Legend said:


> Well, first time a woman is _impaled_ she bleeds. A man/object has violated her by breaking of that wall-thingy- causing her to bleed. She's been symbolically corrupted by a person who is forceful. It's no laughing matter, and definitely not trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When that happened to me though I wanted it. My high school bf went down on me and fingered me first, he didn't just break my hymen ...I was sufficiently aroused. 

Life is painful. Most of my boyfriends were circumcised as babies and have been in fist fights. Yeah I bled a little the first time, it was minor. I ripped most of my hymen on a see saw when I was ten, and I rode bikes a lot. Women who ride bikes and horses usually have less trouble.

We are animals. Violence is part of life. It's knowing how to control the violence that matters. Childbirth is violent.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Torai said:


> Mostly how men are evil and how trans women are really just men who want to infiltrate female bathrooms and rape the poor womyn. Oh, and how sex-positivity is uhpwessive, sexuality is totes a choice, and lesbianism is the honorable one (being gay is the patriarchy). There was one person who browsed their forum and got screenshots of them literally fantasizing about killing men.
> 
> Radfem Hub is really out there. It's got the worst of the worst wheb it comes to the second wave, like the woman who made the PiV article.


I really like you.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Veggie said:


> At 12 - 17 I thought that most men actually cherished women and that Disney wasn't complete bullshit for the most part (and I was having sex at like 15 almost 16). I love thoughts like these now.
> 
> Cheers to you for starting this thread - and for @Chango's contribution too, lol.



At 12-17 I was already on Cathy and Heathcliff, slasher flicks and free love ideas from my parents generation. 

I think my friend who works at Disney is NF. WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.


Just kidding, I am not type trolling, I just haven't believed in Disney since I was seven or eight, and I don't get off sexually on men being a White Knight.....even when I was thirteen or so I wanted to be wanted, but not rescued. 

Keirsey said SPs are most different from NFs and I thought that was bullshit, but maybe he means relationally, like Socionics Gamma versus Delta kind of thing.


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## Agelastos (Jun 1, 2014)

HAL said:


> I'll just leave this here...
> 
> "PIV is always rape, ok?"
> 
> ...


:shocked::frustrating::laughing:


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

fourtines said:


> WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.


What's wrong with me? I grew up in a family where men cherished women and my dad treated my mom like a princess. They're still together 30 some years later, he makes good money, was a good looking dude (she was attractive as well)...I just thought that's how it was. Especially at eight, when I was still playing with Barbies and not worried about sex...(probably normal, really, within the sphere of "healthy" people...I hate throwing that one out there but I feel like you might be one of those types to appreciate it what with the psycho-analysis ;P)



fourtines said:


> I don't get off sexually on men being a White Knight.....even when I was thirteen or so I wanted to be wanted, but not rescued.


I totally get off on White Knights because I've been a White Knight myself and I'm into equality. Don't need to be rescued though. Actually, have rescued myself from what I doubt a good bit of this forum has ever been through. You don't know my life sister  Wanted though, absolutely. Need I say "of course" (assuming high self esteem)?


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

What if impaling someone with a sword is symbolic of a penis entering a vagina?


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

fourtines said:


> I really like you.


Now I'm getting suspicious... Where'd you put the tazer?


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

doineed1 said:


> I saw a few of those at different torture museum I visited.. they seem to be to legit..


Yeah--it seems like a great idea for a chastity belt. But it doesn't quite embody the "sex as violence" in the way the op described, as it seems more of a defensive thing...IDK about the history of that piece of metal though. Torture? I can't even imagine.

I think the mythological image of the toothed vagina lends itself to more modern gender war stuff.

Edit: I can see how the chastity belt was a sort of torture device in it's time, considering the social environment and expectations.


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## doineed1 (May 25, 2014)

meltedsorbet said:


> Yeah--it seems like a great idea for a chastity belt. But it doesn't quite embody the "sex as violence" in the way the op described, as it seems more of a defensive thing...IDK about the history of that piece of metal though. Torture? I can't even imagine.
> 
> I think the mythological image of the toothed vagina lends itself to more modern gender war stuff.


This entire Congo is reminding me of a horrible movie my wife ambushed me with called teeth... 

Could you imagine a world where we on had teeth down there? That would change oh so many things.. lol


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

doineed1 said:


> This entire Congo is reminding me of a horrible movie my wife ambushed me with called teeth...
> 
> Could you imagine a world where we on had teeth down there? That would change oh so many things.. lol


*laughing* I think I saw that movie referenced on Wikipedia. Modern mythology is priceless...though I don't watch horror. I prefer the old stories which are more manageable. 

Perhaps we would end up evolving into armored people if we had to pass through birth canals with teeth.


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## doineed1 (May 25, 2014)

meltedsorbet said:


> *laughing* I think I saw that movie referenced on Wikipedia. Modern mythology is priceless...though I don't watch horror. I prefer the old stories which are more manageable.
> 
> Perhaps we would end up evolving into armored people if we had to pass through birth canals with teeth.


Armoured people or men would evolve there pillow talk. Lol... either way I don't know if I will be able to sleep tonight. Lol


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## Stendhal (May 31, 2014)

Morpheus83 said:


> It also makes me wonder about issues of complicity and willing participation--especially in the light of something like a lurid ‘bodice ripper’ narrative. Power inequality in representations of sex might seem like a ‘bad’ thing that reinforces notions of control and exploitation, but is there any way to see the symbolic ‘violence’ as something ‘desirable’ and willingly enabled? Who has what power in the language of ‘consent’? I think there’s more to this than the physical mechanics of sex. And the issue becomes even trickier when one talks about ways of representing sex that deviates from heteronormative codes and biological discourses that define sexuality. Who gets to write these narratives and how should they be written for whom?
> 
> Ah, yes--I agree that the act may be seen as the symbolic manifestation of real violence; it probably depends on the context in which the act is portrayed. I also think that language, literature and media don’t just reflect ‘reality’; talking about ‘new’ representational possibilities also problematises issues of sexual identity and gender relations that we take for granted (like the ‘plug and socket’ representation of heterosexual sex that marginalises diverse expressions of lesbian sexuality and emotional intimacy).


The issue of consent is a very interesting complication. It of course should be noted that consent does not give somebody the right to do anything you want to a person (an obvious example is that you can't sign a consent form authorizing somebody to smash you in the head with a hammer), but even with this caveat, it is an important consideration. My own sense is that unusual sexual desires are actually extremely common, and that expecting everyone to follow a template of ideologically correct sex (I've read on Wikipedia that some feminists actually argue about whether it's acceptable for the woman to be on the bottom for heterosexual acts) is not the way to break down system of oppression since it is unrealistic and would simply replace one tyranny with another. The question is about what consent is, and how far does it let you go. The tautologies, "no means no" and yes means yes" are good baseline, but apart from being obvious, they are misleadingly simplistic, at least in the case of "yes means yes." Saying yes means something very different if the person being asked says yes emphatically as soon as the issue is broached, than it does it the person was browbeaten into the yes, or if the person was almost blackout drunk at the time. The cases above would not be difficult to decide form most reasonable people (I hope!), but the question becomes trickier if one goes deeper. Many people like to play hard to get when it comes to sex, and baring in mind, how much insistence is accepted into "the game" before it crosses the line. Or how about the issue of drinking. Sleeping with somebody who is blackout drink is legally (and ethically rape), but sleeping with somebody who has consumed a single drink couldn't reasonably be classified as an ethical breach, unless something else was sketchy. So how much one drink before sleeping with them becomes exploitative? And what if both parities are equally drunk? Surely you can have both partners raping each other, because rape is by definition an act of one party tyrannizing the other. So even from this rough sketch we see consent is not at all simple, and this is without adding inequalities of power. 

As for how far consent should let you go, this too is tricky. Obviously we have to base it off something more concrete than disgust or vague notions of propriety. I would argue that the threshold should be based on safety, since even if it is consensual, people should be discouraged from acts that have a high chance of getting them killed. Based on these criteria, everything (we are assuming consent give both those with the capacity to consent) from whips and chains to a whole bunch of other unusual stuff should be permitted, assuming people practice them in a non-abusive manner. Where things start getting tricky, at least for mean, is when people start doing things like choking each other. It is not the aggression so much that bothers me as the fact people get killed from it. I know people risk there live from excitement all the time, but accidently strangling your lover to death seems counter productive, at least for me.

As for those acts which fall outside the heteronormative box, I would agree they tend to be marginalized. I would also like to add that it is not only that this practice get less air time, but that they also tend to get represented in stereotypical ways. I agree with you that representations not only reflect on, but also influence society. The plug and socket example is a good one, especially since the terms male and female are actually applied to plugs and sockets! From this we see just how far heteronormativity has wormed its way into the language. I think this ties nicely with the question of who gets to control representations. To begin, it is necessary to recognize that the best representatives of marginalized groups are the members of those, for the simple reason that they understand their position (and are more likely to defined it) than members of the dominate group. For this to take place, members of these groups must have access to the means of communicate, as well as the time to produce representations. Once this access is achieved, the battle is not one, but the marginalized group is at least armed with the weapons to carry out their struggle!


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

HAL said:


> I'll just leave this here...
> 
> "PIV is always rape, ok?"
> 
> ...


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

PIV sounds like something you'd catch from eating contaminated chicken.


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## ForsakenMe (Aug 30, 2010)

Emerald Legend said:


> Think about it. A man is impaling a woman, symbolically.
> Thrusting to tease her clit..irritating it.
> 
> Is there such a thing about men that's not about the use of some sort of force? :angry:


I needed that laugh. Thank you.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Veggie said:


> What's wrong with me? I grew up in a family where men cherished women and my dad treated my mom like a princess. They're still together 30 some years later, he makes good money, was a good looking dude (she was attractive as well)...I just thought that's how it was. Especially at eight, when I was still playing with Barbies and not worried about sex...(probably normal, really, within the sphere of "healthy" people...I hate throwing that one out there but I feel like you might be one of those types to appreciate it what with the psycho-analysis ;P)
> 
> 
> 
> I totally get off on White Knights because I've been a White Knight myself and I'm into equality. Don't need to be rescued though. Actually, have rescued myself from what I doubt a good bit of this forum has ever been through. You don't know my life sister  Wanted though, absolutely. Need I say "of course" (assuming high self esteem)?


White Knight syndrome is not realistic, and I am sure it affects ISFJs as much as NFPs or NFJs.

I grew up with the upstanding father figure of my grandfather, who swooped in on my father's bad behavior and loved me and actually probably spoiled me as a child, and he supported my grandmother (I was too young when she died to remember other parts of their relationship) and he courted and wooed and supported his next wife, but she was a.ball busting bitch so they had problems eventually. My uncle Joe was also a traditional Southern ISxJ man who relished marriage and fatherhood, and was gentle with children and animals.

My mother on the other hand chose partners who were sexually exciting and dangerous, and the consequences of that arose. I was sheltered from the sins of my father, but I knew all about her second husband.

I grew up in the South, being told what men SHOULD DO, and there were very good men in my extended family.

Even as a teenager I had boyfriends who called me "ma'am" but I simply could never be that naive. Even my upstanding grandfather warned me how preoccupied men were with sex, in very plain language.

Also I owned a television that wasn't tuned to Disney 24/7, and I read a lot.

I have a personal hatred of extreme naivete because I think it's dangerous and disempowering.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

fourtines;7436305
I have a personal hatred of extreme naivete because I think it's dangerous and disempowering.[/QUOTE said:


> Even more than that, I have a personal hatred of the fake innocence. Yuck.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

LeoCat said:


> Even more than that, I have a personal hatred of the fake innocence. Yuck.


I think what was reinforced into me is that I should be strong and informed. I think my grandfather thought he messed up with my mother by coddling her or who knows, but he taught me to mow the lawn and tried to force me to love math. I think he did his best but couldn't save me from my temperament. I am like a more savvy and empowered version of my mother, but she became strong with age.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

fourtines said:


> I have a personal hatred of extreme naivete because I think it's dangerous and disempowering.


So are you calling me naïve? And also saying that you have personal hatred for me? Again, I feel like we've had this conversation before, but I'm sorry that what gets me off sexually is so offensive to you. 



fourtines said:


> Also I owned a television that wasn't tuned to Disney 24/7, and I read a lot.


I also owned a television that wasn't tuned to Disney 24/7 and read a lot. I went to the library every week. I read so much that I had a limit as to how many books I was allowed to check out at a time (8) and I'd finish the stack voraciously. 

If we're going to drip passive aggression, then HONEY, I hate to tell you this, but it's entirely possible that the dudes who aren't smothering you in southern hospitability *still just want you for and are preoccupied with sex* Yes, even the ones who _say_ otherwise. Weird, that guys don't always mean what they say and have agendas. Just coming from a naïve chick (yeaa), so take or leave that.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Veggie said:


> So are you calling me naïve? And also saying that you have personal hatred for me? Again, I feel like we've had this conversation before, but I'm sorry that what gets me off sexually is so offensive to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suggest you take your neurosis elsewhere. Yes I think White Knight syndrome is stupid and dangerous, a quick read of literature will let you know that chivalry equalled patriarchal oppression, not to mention how it makes unreasonable expectations of men.

Your pathetic attempt to bait me is adolescent at best. I never said I hated you, what the fuck. Have a day.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

fourtines said:


> I suggest you take your neurosis elsewhere. Yes I think White Knight syndrome is stupid and dangerous, a quick read of literature will let you know that chivalry equalled patriarchal oppression, not to mention how it makes unreasonable expectations of men.
> 
> Your pathetic attempt to bait me is adolescent at best. I never said I hated you, what the fuck. Have a day.


LOL, oh God. This is ridiculous. You're making me do homework girl. Don't appreciate it.

First of all...



fourtines said:


> *I have a personal hatred *of extreme naivete because I think it's dangerous and disempowering.


Second of all, you were the one to come at me for posting something in response simply to the OP that had nothing to do with you. So who baited who? A quick read on literature to learn what my feels and vagina should be into eh? K. I'm the prude because politics don't dictate the laws of my vag. Having said that, I've read it all, m'dear. Chivalry equals patriarchal oppression? So, if I'm pregnant and a doctor orders me to bed rest, if my dude steps up for me during that time he's an archaic dunce? I said what I said about White Knighting myself because I'd just as soon step in for him in an equivalent situation if I needed to. 

Also - it's wrong for me to want some effort if I'm going to commit to someone and a family if I can get knocked up for almost an entire year - which effects health, career, etc - while this guy could be impregnating multiple women in one night? What's stupid and dangerous are women who are so full of themselves (he'd never! I mean...he _said_ so!) that they don't consider these things, imo. A little effort and reassurance is not an unreasonable expectation.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Veggie said:


> LOL, oh God. This is ridiculous. You're making me do homework girl. Don't appreciate it.
> 
> First of all...
> 
> ...



Yes I have a deep personal hatred of willful extreme naivete. Apparently you took that as a personal attack, but I am stating a fact about myself. It's my world view.

You seemed to be implying that you believed in Disney movies simply because you had a caring father, and I found it ridiculous, given that I was raised in an Fe uber polite Honor Culture where men still open doors, and also had a caring father figure. I was explaining to you why I find it absurd for a seventeen year old to believe in Disney films. You call yourself a voracious reader, but you are apparently unaware that the real fairy tales bear little resemblance to Disney films, and were mainly tales of peasant girls in Germany and Eastern Europe marrying out of poverty or abuse.

White Knight syndrome in its current cultural form is a social disease in my opinion, leading to thirty year old female virgins, angry fedora wearing nice guys, and deplorably stupid rom coms. As a cultural idea it demeans women, implying they need rescue, and demeans men, implying they should be Supermen.

Having standards isn't the same as White Knight syndrome. 

Women with White Knight syndrome could end up controlled by men who they thought would care for.them, or conversely, end up with caring men who they run into the ground like domineering princesses.

You could be sexually aroused by ham sandwiches for all I care, but as for me, I will stick with reality.

Think of me as Nelly Dean in Wuthering Heights telling Cathy why it's a mistake to marry Edgar Linton "oh he's rich, oh he's.handsome"..."oh bad, oh worse still."


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## Tezcatlipoca (Jun 6, 2014)

Not only is it symbolic violence, it is actual violence. I recommend you never have sex or breed, put an end to the cycle of violence!


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Yes I have a deep personal hatred of willful extreme naivete. Apparently you took that as a personal attack, but I am stating a fact about myself. It's my world view.


You were implying that I'm extremely willfully naïve. Obviously that's a personal attack. I recommend the wisdom of Yoda. Hate in your heart is icky :/



fourtines said:


> You seemed to be implying that you believed in Disney movies simply because you had a caring father, and I found it ridiculous, given that I was raised in an Fe uber polite Honor Culture where men still open doors, and also had a caring father figure. *I was explaining to you *why I find it absurd for a seventeen year old to believe in Disney films.


Well I appreciate the explanation. I'm cured! Actually, I'm 29 now and still believe in some Disney films. I wasn't implying anything either, I was just giving a back story in response to what was "wrong" with me - I figured it would give you something to work with as a psycho-analysis from your armchair. Apparently it has.



fourtines said:


> You call yourself a voracious reader, but you are apparently unaware that the real fairy tales bear little resemblance to Disney films, and were mainly tales of peasant girls in Germany and Eastern Europe marrying out of poverty or abuse.


:laughing: I love your logical leap to conclusions. I had no idea! Thanks for informing me.

In real life I actually do a lot of research on the origination of fairy tales and archetypes though.



fourtines said:


> White Knight syndrome in its current cultural form is a social disease in my opinion, leading to thirty year old female virgins, angry fedora wearing nice guys, and deplorably stupid rom coms. As a cultural idea it demeans women, implying they need rescue, and demeans men, implying they should be Supermen.


This is why I appreciated the OP. Something tells me that you might actually agree with it on some level, lol, whether you realize it or not. Maybe not, but this stuff is immediately written off as ridiculous by intellectuals such as yourself when this is the kind of argument you will sit and have.

Also - Anti-White Knight syndrome is a social disease that leads to gonorrhea and hatred. _Always_. I read it somewhere. It's fact.



fourtines said:


> Having standards isn't the same as White Knight syndrome.
> 
> You could be sexually aroused by ham sandwiches for all I care, but as for me, I will stick with reality.


Because what sexually arouses me isn't reality...

*Buzzes one out to Prince Charming*

(^That just happened in the real world)



fourtines said:


> Think of me as Nelly Dean in Wuthering Heights telling Cathy why it's a mistake to marry Edgar Linton "oh he's rich, oh he's.handsome"..."oh bad, oh worse still."


I'll probably just think of you as @fourtines, the person with a cat avatar I met online who was kinda rude to me. I'm not into romanticizing PerC members as imaginary characters, especially after being lectured by them about reality.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Veggie said:


> You were implying that I'm extremely willfully naïve. Obviously that's a personal attack. I recommend the wisdom of Yoda. Hate in your heart is icky :/
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There was absolutely nothing intelligent or adult in your response. I said my piece. If you don't like it, tough shit kid.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

fourtines said:


> There was absolutely nothing intelligent or adult in your response. I said my piece. If you don't like it, tough shit kid.


I don't like it at all. It's like you're penetrating my brain with your matriarchal oppression and words as gospel and it feels violent. Kind of like I'm being donkey punched and railed against a wall by a big throbbing penis...as if I'm no better than a ragdoll my daddy bought for me at Disney.

I don't feel empowered by this interaction


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Veggie said:


> I don't like it at all. It's like you're penetrating my brain with your matriarchal oppression and words as gospel and it feels violent. Kind of like I'm being donkey punched and railed against a wall by a big throbbing penis...as if I'm no better than a ragdoll my daddy bought for me at Disney.
> 
> I don't feel empowered by this interaction


Have you ever been diagnosed with a personality disorder?


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

*Vlad--The Vagina Impaler* 








Quite handsome actually, ladies.:wink:


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

I know I've read some people say it is. Without looking, I'm fairly certain Andrea Dworkin did, to name one who came to mind. Though when you look at some of the terms used for it--"smash," "hit," "nail," "pound," etc.--it sounds like an act of violence has been committed. So evidently they believe it is. (Many people don't actually stop to think about what they say.)


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## asperger (Dec 22, 2014)

It is. When uneducated children see sex, they think man is hurting/punshing woman. It looks that way.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

asperger said:


> It is. When uneducated children see sex, they think man is hurting/punshing woman. It looks that way.


Right? 
Daddy is hurting mommy..and society wants little kid to be as violent and abusive as daddy or submissive victim as mommy. It sickens me..these violence.

@Master MindAndrea Dworkin is a saint. We need more women like her to end the violence by oppressors- the men who commit violent act even when expressing their love.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

It's offensive to rape victims to suggest that all PIV sex is rape or is a violent act. First of all, other forms of sex can involve violence and rape (a lack of consent). PIV sex also doesn't have to hurt or be entirely unpleasant for the woman. If a man penetrates a woman and she says that it hurts too much or that she wants him to stop, he better pull out his penis _immediately_. If he moves forward without considering her feelings, he is raping her.

Symbolically, PIV sex can be portrayed or described in a violent manner or in a manner that echoes rape. Even the language we use to describe PIV sex can sound violent and non-consensual. We should not use language to describe consensual and non-violent PIV sex in a way that makes it sound similar to violence or rape.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit's back! Didn't get a chance to post in here the first time.
Now I have the highest hopes for soapy vagina debates.



Emerald Legend said:


> Right?
> Daddy is hurting mommy..and society wants little kid to be as violent and abusive as daddy or submissive victim as mommy. It sickens me..these violence.


...Except when mommy is riding the living hell out of daddy and leaving him breathless :tongue:
Also this is why you get to be fucking honest with your kids instead than feeding them bullshit.

This is exactly why sex negative feminism is the bane of the movement.
Years and years to expose rape like the big fucking deal it is and letting women know how to embrace their sexual freedom and agency just to go back to step one. Though this isn't about feminism, just some bullshit.

" A penis entering a woman is impaling". Well then, you can call me a corn dog :kitteh:


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

changos said:


> This is outrageous
> It's the opposite, the man is the victim!!!
> the penis is naively passing by while an aggressive, hungry vagina uses tricks to try to eat the penis, devouring it while the man struggles in pain and the woman laughs. ....


haha, I love this, was having a shitty day and read this and I burst out laughing, thanks


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## frozenmusic (Aug 12, 2014)

HAL said:


> I'll just leave this here...
> 
> "PIV is always rape, ok?"
> 
> ...


Wow... What.. in the actual eff? Are these people for real? [sadly, I believe the answer is yes] See, this is the kind of women who made feminism a joke, as opposed to a very well intended and much needed movement/ideology (if we think about what was achieved in the past century). I would love to have the opportunity to inflict some violence on them. Not the penis-involving type though, as I don't own one.


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## Kazoo The Kid (May 26, 2013)

Threads like this are why I come to PerC. Thank you, OP.


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## mental blockstack (Dec 15, 2011)

Anything can be symbolic violence, if you're imaginative enough.


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## VacantPsalm (Dec 22, 2014)

I've always view things the other way around. ◉n◉


*blushes uncontrollably when it's steak night and everyone is holding a knife*


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

The person surrounding the other person has the most control in almost all situations. It is just social norms making you think differently.


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## OutOfThisWorld (Nov 4, 2013)

Hotes McGoats said:


> " A penis entering a woman is impaling". *Well then, you can call me a corn dog* :kitteh:


You're funny! 

The OP's position could technically be turned around to state that the vagina taking in the penis could be symbolic violence as well.

The vagina is "consuming" the penis.
The vagina is "strangling" the penis.
The vagina is "holding" the penis "captive". 
The vagina is "suffocating" the penis. 

There are cases where men "broke" their penis because the women were a bit too enthusiastic...



GYX_Kid said:


> Anything can be symbolic violence, if you're imaginative enough.


Who even have time for these sort of things? I have better things to do with my life. Like catching up on my sleep and watching the thousands of puppy videos doing cute things on YT.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

OutOfThisWorld said:


> The OP's position could technically be turned around to state that the vagina taking in the penis could be symbolic violence as well.


Good point! I'll refer to my vagina as a Black Hole or the Gates of Hell from now on.
Though I could make a flytrap reference because ain't it what they do? Grab an unsuspecting trousers snake and swallowing it up :kitteh:

Hell, it even looks vagina-like!


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## bengalcat (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm not sure, I tend not to be quick to see it that way because they are complementary parts that fit together. If it was some rod bashing against something fixed and unyielding perhaps it would seem to represent violence more. 

If it's rape and actual violence, or you know, much of what mainstream porn likes to depict, then the penis may just be shoving its way in. But my understanding from guys' description of sex is that one of the cool things is how the vagina actually tends to pull the penis in once it's at a certain point. I also understand that if the woman is enjoying it, the vagina can be both pulling and pushing the penis quite strongly. 

If the OP has a tendency to view sex as the penetrated partner's body being passive and subjugated, perhaps that is their issues or life experience speaking.


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## asperger (Dec 22, 2014)

funny funny till your first penis captivus
Penis captivus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
then it's not such fun


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