# NF Lost Faith



## humblefolks (Feb 4, 2010)

mariezheaven said:


> I grew up within a very strict Catholic background and as a child I would be dragged to a freezing cold church and be made to sit amongst people who looked as miserable as anything......I knew even then that it was a fear mechanism and a control trap, I longed to be outside in the sunshine in 'Gods garden.'
> 
> As I got older I would question the Catholic faith and always knew that church was in the heart, faith is a state of mind which is while I love the above poem by Rumi


It's unfortunate that you had such an unpleasant experience of the church as a child. 
The notion that God is in people's hearts isn't new. Rumi's revelation is right there, in The Bible. It's been there all along. If more people cared to read it, we all would live in a much better place. 

*Ephesians 3:17*
so that* Christ may dwell in your **hearts* through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.


*1 Corinthians 6:19*
Do you not know that* your body is a **temple of the **Holy **Spirit*, who is in you, whom you have received from God? 

*2 Corinthians 3:3*
You show that you are a letter from *Christ*, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but *on tablets of human hearts*.

*2 Corinthians 4:6*
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," *made his light shine in our hearts* to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of *Christ*.

The church is not a building. Christ is not a religion. 
Christ is a living person, and the church is His body, the salt of the earth, the city on the hill that cannot be hidden. The Church is supposed to be the expression of God on earth. And people through their greed, through their lack of faith,through their inability to see the bigger picture, through their own ambitions and narrow-mindedness have messed up what is supposed to be holy, glorious, utterly special and unworldly. But God will have his way, we will see the church the way it was meant to be.


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

I can't believe in the God of the Bible, how are you supposed to fear somethng and love it at the same time? I realized long ago that people only let you down, you'd be a pertty dissapointed person if you belived humanity would actually accomplish something good. I dont know if this central life force I've found is god or not, most cristians woud say no it's the devil in disguise. If this God made me then it will understand my feelings and help me sort through them.:frustrating:


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## humblefolks (Feb 4, 2010)

Sizzorhandz said:


> I can't believe in the God of the Bible,* how are you supposed to fear somethng and love it at the same time?* I realized long ago that people only let you down, you'd be a pertty dissapointed person if you belived humanity would actually accomplish something good. I dont know if this central life force I've found is god or not, most cristians woud say no it's the devil in disguise. If this God made me then it will understand my feelings and help me sort through them.:frustrating:


The same way you're afraid of disappointing your parents, but you still love them at the same time. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

And yes, I'm sure God will help you sort through your feelings. All you have to do is ask.


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## Kevinaswell (May 6, 2009)

I have the perfect thing for you.....

Some words of wisdom.

Pay attention to the content of the OP, not the debates that ensued after it. Those are full of good stuff for sure too, but I'm pointing at the original message for your sake here.


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## humblefolks (Feb 4, 2010)

A word of wisdom from one of the brainiest guys the humankind has ever known:

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." 
-- Albert Einstein


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

I dont think I've ever really dissapointed my parents, they only care that i get at least C's, they dont care that I smoke, and my brother is a complete failure so he takes care of all that. I really like that quote by Einstein, in my brain one of the arguments has been that the universe is too beautiful to have been an accident.Take a look at the new hubble pictures.


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## Phenix (Jan 26, 2010)

Sizzorhandz,

The most liberating day in my life was when I finally gave up the god delusion. Now you needn't concern yourself with invisible, undetectable, incomprehensible, capricious entities that allegedly cooked us up. You can stop practicing superstition in all its forms. Here's a site that lays it out nicely, but the part that should interest you is near the end. Something about what does it all mean or bringing meaning to your life.
Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

There are forums there too which will put you in touch with like minded people. Cast off the shackles of yesterday! We all get about 30,000 days to experience the universe. It is a gift, don't waste it waiting around to die and go to some made up heaven place. Heaven and hell are just there to keep you from striving to soar in this life. :angry: If I'm wrong, you can blame me. You will find me palling around in hell with the likes of Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, and Bertand Russell (and Richard Dawkins by that time). We're planning a barbeque around the lake of fire!

Good luck!


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## Etchingsunderthecarpet (Dec 21, 2009)

^^^^ And all god's bastard children say:
Amen


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

That's one of the reasons that I refuse to believe in the God of the bible, he claims to love us and made us the way we are, why do we get punished for eternity becuase we didn't find our way in this life? I know that if the bible is true than I will be burning in hell for etenity, but since I dont, I will satate wht I think happens.


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

Frisbeetarianism, when we die our souls rise up and get stuck on roofs, like lost frisbees.:crazy:


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## Phenix (Jan 26, 2010)

Sizzorz,

If you haven't read Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World or Schick and Vaughn's How to Think About Weird Things I would recommend them both. They both lay out method's for looking at the world in a rational way and finding meaning through it, not despite it.

So far, we are the only creatures we know of that have the capacity to experience and understand the universe. We are its eyes, ears, and voice on this little speck of blue. Make the most of it!

I'll repeat a passage from Steve Jobs at a college commencement:

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."


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## Halloween Decor (May 29, 2009)

You stole that from Lemony Snicket, didn't you?


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

I will check those books out, i often think about wierd things, so maby that one would help me. Reacentyl my boss an ffriend Birdella gave me a pendant, it is a goddes figure holdign a piece of moltavite. Its really helped me by reminding me that the earth exists, wether or not there is a god who made it. We exist now, since we cant go to the past and the future is a mystery, now is all we have and we have to work to make it worth living in. I have been searching for a reason to believe, but maby I need to just see what happens. If there is no God, whe I die it wont matter and i will have spent all my life searching for something thats not even there. I think that religion was created by people to quell fears of death, if there is no fear of death then I can find better things to do with my time than than read the bible again.


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## Phenix (Jan 26, 2010)

Sizzorz,

That's exactly right. The god-people are the ones making the extraordinary claims, but they have not provided even one extraordinary piece of evidence (I'd say not even ordinary evidence). Cherish every moment.

Yes, I think the churches came up with hell and all the demons to keep people in line. They also came up with heaven to keep slaves and other have-nots in their place. If we all fear eternal punishment and look forward to eternal happiness, we will all become very complacent and behave ourselves. In the mean time those organizing these eternal punishments and rewards make themselves fat and happy soliciting money from the people who can least afford it.

Imagine how our lives would be if we all understood the reality of our existence? We would have to accept that no one is better than another by virtue of birth or sex, no one has the right to exploit or enslave another, we would stop thinking that 'I don't have to do anything, God will take care of it.' Perhaps we would finally get it that education and critical thinking are the keys out of poverty. /rant

Soar!


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## BryterLayter (Feb 15, 2010)

Sizzorhandz said:


> As an INFP growing up , church was important to me, knowing that god existed and that he loved me. then I bacame not sure, I mean why should humans have souls with afterlifes when all we are is evolved aimals? Losing my faith in the church and my sprituality has really bothered me, cause what is the point in liveing when your only going to die and dissappere, it's not like I'm gonna leave children behind, guys avoid me like the black plague. Can someone help me, I'm not really looknig for God but rather a reason for living to be an old senile bitch.:sad:


i have a question though what was the religion you used to be involved in?
if you don't believe in God how do you believe the world came to be?


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

It was a quaint little Nazerene Church,at a church of maby 30 people. I think that the earth was formed when the big bang happened, a coulpe of meteors crashed into eachother and started orbiting the sun. See i'm not saying that there isn't a god i'm just saying that he is too contrdictory to my beliefs, if that means I am going to hell then so be it. If god created us and claims to love us, unconditionally, why does he damn the people who dont worship him. There are natives in the jungle, they belive that we came from birds, is it their fault that they will never hear the word of god, and so by christan standards will be going to eternal damnation in hell?


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## BryterLayter (Feb 15, 2010)

Sizzorhandz said:


> It was a quaint little Nazerene Church,at a church of maby 30 people. I think that the earth was formed when the big bang happened, a coulpe of meteors crashed into eachother and started orbiting the sun. See i'm not saying that there isn't a god i'm just saying that he is too contrdictory to my beliefs, if that means I am going to hell then so be it. If god created us and claims to love us, unconditionally, why does he damn the people who dont worship him. There are natives in the jungle, they belive that we came from birds, is it their fault that they will never hear the word of god, and so by christan standards will be going to eternal damnation in hell?


i'm a christian and i do understand your questions completely
there was a point in my life where i just questioned it all, i came to realize that just because i can't explain it all doesn't mean its not true.
i'm not sure how to word this but the question i have is
since God knows before he creates people whether they'll ever accept Him or not then why would he create the ones that He already knows are going to go to hell?
and how could God look away from His only son when He was doing what God sent Him to do on the cross?
those questions don't cause disbelief in me, it just proves to me that i either haven't gone through the Bible enough to understand fully or i just can't wrap my head around it
do you believe God created those meteors then?


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

No I dont believe that God created the meteors, it all happened by chance. The bible also says that God will destroy the world with fire and ice, this plays into everyones fears that one day humanity willl come to an end. I think that this will happen but it will becuase we heated the earth enough to cook our asses.


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## BryterLayter (Feb 15, 2010)

Sizzorhandz said:


> No I dont believe that God created the meteors, it all happened by chance. The bible also says that God will destroy the world with fire and ice, this plays into everyones fears that one day humanity willl come to an end. I think that this will happen but it will becuase we heated the earth enough to cook our asses.


so do you believe that God has control but chooses just to watch the world get destroyed by His own creation?


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

No, I dont think God has control, I dont think "God" if he exists is guiding anything. The world has cycles, it warms and cools, we are in a warming period. Eventually it will get to hott for us to survive, life will continue, but a different life form will dominate. I think I was trying to say that I dont belive that a god could create something, create it's thoughts and feelings, and then damn it for feeling and thinking that way.
I read a book that presented an interesting take on god.It stated that God wanted to know where he came form, why he exists. One day he decided to create life and let it evolve to see if he could find his own origins.


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## BryterLayter (Feb 15, 2010)

Sizzorhandz said:


> No, I dont think God has control, I dont think "God" if he exists is guiding anything. The world has cycles, it warms and cools, we are in a warming period. Eventually it will get to hott for us to survive, life will continue, but a different life form will dominate. I think I was trying to say that I dont belive that a god could create something, create it's thoughts and feelings, and then damn it for feeling and thinking that way.
> I read a book that presented an interesting take on god.It stated that God wanted to know where he came form, why he exists. One day he decided to create life and let it evolve to see if he could find his own origins.


that doesn't make much sense to me, i don't want to insult what you believe or force my views on you but does it really make sense to you that an all knowing God that created the world is unsure of where He came from?
the simplest way i can put it is that God created life as a test for us. people have natural good and evil in them and a longing for meaning. God created us with a sinful nature because if we were perfect Jesus wouldn't have had to die for all humanity. God created man with free will, He doesn't program us to commit sin or to live pure, its our decision, and just because one commits sin doesn't mean you'll be damned for it because of Jesus' death on the cross, all we have to do is believe Jesus is our savior and that through Him we are forgiven all the sins we'll ever commit. i'm sure you've heard this before but i just wanted to tell you that. i admire your deep thoughts on this, i've had similar thoughts too in my life but just because i can't explain God's origins doesn't mean He doesn't exist.


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

I tried to be a good christian. I mean I tried to to live my life in way that was good, but I geuss I couldn't find meaning in any of it. I saw the grownup around me, they would be singing and praying in church, but on monday they completely forget. The other kids at my church didn't help either, the Pastor preaches toleranc but his daughters would make fun of and pick on the other children. I didn't want to be invovled with all of the hypocracy, I went to a different church. Everything was the same only on a larger scale, God wouldn't like this blasphmy.


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## justinhammar (Oct 23, 2009)

Once I lost my faith. Then my body became my religion.


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## Kalifornia310 (Jan 7, 2010)

I lost my faith ages ago, mainly due to the fact that apparently Jesus hates ****


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## BryterLayter (Feb 15, 2010)

Sizzorhandz said:


> I tried to be a good christian. I mean I tried to to live my life in way that was good, but I geuss I couldn't find meaning in any of it. I saw the grownup around me, they would be singing and praying in church, but on monday they completely forget. The other kids at my church didn't help either, the Pastor preaches toleranc but his daughters would make fun of and pick on the other children. I didn't want to be invovled with all of the hypocracy, I went to a different church. Everything was the same only on a larger scale, God wouldn't like this blasphmy.


yeah i know i go to a "private" school and there's tons of hypocracy. i used to be extremely bitter towards everyone but then i realized that it really doesn't matter if they're self righteous or hypocritical because thats not what its about. people disappoint and lie to you and bend the scriptures to get their views across but i've learned to just weed them out, pay attention to what i believe instead of focusing on the fault of others. but i really do know what you're talking about with the whole hypocracy thing, but it doesn't mean that the religion is wrong it just means that the people are


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

The bible says that you should do all of these things, I can confess Jesus and accept him as my savior, I have many times. But I feel fake somehow, I dont want to and I tried to stop but it just wouldn't go away. How do I have a relationship with god when I can't feel him? I want to thank you for having this conversation with me, the only friend I usually talk to tells me I'm damned and going to hell so I dont bring it up anymore.


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## Razvan (Dec 17, 2009)

Sizzorhandz said:


> The bible says that you should do all of these things, I can confess Jesus and accept him as my savior, I have many times. But I feel fake somehow, I dont want to and I tried to stop but it just wouldn't go away. How do I have a relationship with god when I can't feel him? I want to thank you for having this conversation with me, the only friend I usually talk to tells me I'm damned and going to hell so I dont bring it up anymore.


Well, I think I feel Him, I feel the love that I have in me, I feel that the miracles that are happening are true, plus some weird things hapened to me that made me believe even more. Some we call them only "coincidences", I find it that it's more than that and it's nothing to what happened to some of my friends...Anyway, I think you must first learn to love yourself if you are not already doing this and than you just have to open yor heart and let Him in...I think this should be enough in my opinion. I have problems with actions of priests, of people who say are religious and so on, but I don't think you have to blame the religion, as people are people, religious or atheists.


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## BryterLayter (Feb 15, 2010)

Sizzorhandz said:


> The bible says that you should do all of these things, I can confess Jesus and accept him as my savior, I have many times. But I feel fake somehow, I dont want to and I tried to stop but it just wouldn't go away. How do I have a relationship with god when I can't feel him? I want to thank you for having this conversation with me, the only friend I usually talk to tells me I'm damned and going to hell so I dont bring it up anymore.


i understand that completely, i think everyone gets the feeling their fake sometimes, i think they're just too proud to admit it. when i ever feel really far away from God or i have doubts about myself i think back to Matt.17:20 " He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. this verse means to me that no matter how small your faith seems to you that God knows that you believe and understands that you're struggling, i think that doubt is actually a sign of belief , i think we doubt because we feel that we're still unworthy of salvation or that we haven't done anything for Christ but i don't think that doubt means you were never saved in the first place, i mean it can but normally i don't think so.
the way that makes me feel closer to God is just having personal prayers quietly through out the day as i think of problems or would like to thank him for something, also read the Bible daily, i know these two things sound obvious but for most of my life i haven't done either, i started recently and have lost most of my feelings of doubt. also i think INFPs feel guilt and doubt more in life than most other personality types so that also plays into it because i used to feel doubt on a daily basis and i would try to ignore it. its ashame about your friend that just tells you you're damned to hell, i see that too often at my school people can be so judgmental, they write off people because of superficial things or differences its sad


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## Ghrim (Mar 3, 2010)

I don't know if this has been suggested yet or not, but I think that instead of agonizing over your doubt for one idea, take it as a healthy opportunity to explore alternatives. As an NP, expanding your horizons should come naturally, right? See if you can find something that's easier for you to believe in and can offer some direction.

Personally, becoming too attached to one idea is painful for me. I just can't justify it. There's so many perspectives and ideas available. How can anybody declare one to be correct?

There are a lot of non-Abrahamic religions or spiritual systems or even non-spiritual ways of looking at the world that are very uplifting. They just tend to be less ambitious and viral, so the Abrahamic religions drown them out. 

Personally, I'm kind of stuck between Buddhism/Taoism. Both speak deeply to me. Let me just dump a whole bunch of my own musings on the nature of existence for you. Maybe something will stick.

First off, I think the meaning of life is to live it, and nothing more. There is absolutely nothing about this reality that is definitely understood, and it may be impossible to ever change that. We don't even know if absolute knowledge of anything is humanly possible. Our own senses can betray us. The only things we know for certain are math (as a system founded completely on internal consistency with no need for external validation) and our own experiences. Even if everything I experience isn't actually "real" in some objective sense, it is still impossible for me to know any reality outside of my experiences. So experience is really the only thing we have, and I can think of no other reason to live life than for the pure experience of it. This is some very zen thinking here. If you connect with this at all, read up on some zen buddhism.

Now for the Taoism. What we can consistently observe about the world is it's made up of infinite systems which are themselves made up of infinite systems. Everything is particles made of particles made of particles in an endless dance. Subatomic particles dance around atomic particles dance forming atoms which interact to form molecules which interact to form single-celled organisms which interact to form larger organisms which interact to form entire ecosystems which populate planets that rotate around stars to form solar systems which rotate around supermassive black holes to form galaxies which make up the universe, and it's all held together with some muck called dark matter which we've been guessing at for decades and believe we verified the existence of a couple years ago but still don't understand in the least. This is just what we're capable of observing. There are almost definitely more systems at the top and bottom of the spectrum which we cannot even conceive of yet -- things beyond the subatomic or the known universe.

So what makes us individuals? If the cells of my body were sentient (assuming they're not - define sentience!) would they consider themselves individuals, when to me they're simply my body? In the same sense, am I just a single-celled organism to planet earth? Is the earth a single cell to the galaxy? Is everything like one giant organism we simply can't comprehend? I can only conclude that everything in the universe is united but seperate at the same time. Every particle in every system can be identified as itself or a part of its system. Even on a conscious "real world" level, we all actively participate in many roles in many systems. I'm a father, an employee, a student, a son, a grandson, etc. I'm a particle in dozens of systems and all those systems are connected. Still, I'm an individual, having these individual thoughts about these things from my perspective that is absolutely uniquely my own.

Many people would say these ideas make them feel small and insignificant, but they shouldn't! Size is relative. The universe makes you feel small, but to the individual organisms that comprise the systems of your body, you're like a galaxy! To an electron, an atomic nuclei is like the sun.

Now here's where I really get into some abstract stuff that I've only begun delving into over the last year or two.

What makes this all possible is duality. All these infinite systems are generated by the dynamics of opposing forces interacting. Everything is made up of opposites. Protons and neutrons, light and dark, matter and anti-matter, predator and prey, happy and sad... everything. Math is especially interesting, as an abstract model for understanding the interactions of opposing forces. What dynamics are generated when you take two sets of numbers and variables on put a = between them? That's math... and it's called the universal language. Supposedly, there is nothing which cannot be represented mathematically. What's really striking to me, is what sits at the core of it all...

-1 = 0 = 1

In other words, it all amounts to nothing. There's infinite negative numbers and infinite positive numbers, and together they amount to nothing. Most importantly, the number 0, by definition, contains within itself the entire range of numbers. 0 is 0, but it is also the entire infinite range of numbers put together.

Think about how this translates to the physical universe. These systems are in balance, even if they may not seem like it at times. Everything goes through cycles. Think about time and space. Supposedly, time is just another spatial dimension. It's not constant. It's effected by gravity. Think about the big bang. All of time and space gets condensed into a singularity, and then explodes. 

Think about existence and non-existence. The nature of cause & effect has always presented huge problems for any ideas about the origins of the universe. Either you believe that time and space are truly infinite (which is impossible to concieve, at least for me) or you believe that there was some original force which popped out from nothing and created everything (this is the case if you believe in god).

But if you look at 0 (non-existence) containing the definition of everything else (existence), then you don't hit any such walls. Existence and non-existences are literally the same thing, existing as duality. One cannot exist without the other. If time adheres to the same rules as everything else, which I would imagine it does as just another dimension of space, then a singularity of time means that all of existence is actually contained in a singular moment. At that same time, that singular moment is all of existence and we are contained within it, traveling just one path through the infinite spectrum of potentiality.

This isn't even incompatible with ideas of god. If all of existence is contained within a singularity of non-existence, couldn't that non-existence almost be seen as a being of sorts? Conceive of Nothing as a being. If that being has a single thought... you have creation. 

What is it that comprises our consciousness? There's only two options really. It's either spiritual (immaterial) or the abstract product of a complex system. Either way, it's hard to imagine the universe not being sentient. Either our immaterial souls are all a part of a universal oneness or it's just another complex system which could easily have an abstract product comparable to our own consciousness.

So now that I've probably shocked you thoroughly out of your intellectual comfort zone, I'll try to bring this back into some useful context.

Basically, we don't know anything and we don't actually have anything other than our own experiences. If we were created by some divine or universal being of some sentience individual agency, then I can only imagine that our lives are nothing more than an opportunity to swim in the purity of experience. If some all-powerfuly creator of the universe wanted anything, he could do it for himself. There's really no other way for me to see it than if there's a creator, we are a part of it and we are only meant to live our lives for the sake of living them.

And that's all there is to it. Pity people who get cut short or caught up on details and forget to live. Don't worry about it. Don't let that crap influence you (the hardest part) and free yourself to simply experience life.


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## The Psychonaut (Oct 29, 2009)

Can someone help me, I'm not really looknig for God but rather a reason for living to be an old senile bitch.:sad:[/QUOTE]

now...i kno some people dont think im serious when i say shit like this...but...DRUGS.
seriously think about it...not only will it give u a reason to live to be a senile old bitch, it will take the old part completely out of the equation.


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## Razvan (Dec 17, 2009)

wannaBgonzo said:


> Can someone help me, I'm not really looknig for God but rather a reason for living to be an old senile bitch.:sad:


now...i kno some people dont think im serious when i say shit like this...but...DRUGS.
seriously think about it...not only will it give u a reason to live to be a senile old bitch, it will take the old part completely out of the equation.[/quote]

Here's one : LOVE . It's the best reason to live, the most powerfull drug that exists and everything else is0 compared to true love and to giving unconditionate love.:happy:


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

I have been thinking over the past few days and I dont really know what to believe. I will take your advice and expand my horizens. Maby the more I learn the easier it will become.


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## Kalifornia310 (Jan 7, 2010)

Razvan said:


> now...i kno some people dont think im serious when i say shit like this...but...DRUGS.
> seriously think about it...not only will it give u a reason to live to be a senile old bitch, it will take the old part completely out of the equation.


Here's one : LOVE . It's the best reason to live, the most powerfull drug that exists and everything else is0 compared to true love and to giving unconditionate love.:happy:[/quote]


I TOTALLY AGREE! drugs and love is what i live for! lol.. seriously though,

drugs: lets think... drugs enhance emotions and feelings and some heal. so why wouldnt i do them!!! imagine going to the movie, and the exact same movie was playing in another theatre in 3D! i would choose the 3D experience, cuz its enhanced.. 

yes some may say some drugs dont help, but hurt, i understand that. its called balance and moderation. plus we all die eventually. i just want to ensure i didnt waste my life sitting on the sidelines when i could have been enjoying it and experiencing things!

LOVE!!!! oh love!!! yes love keeps me going! those emotions and feelings you get! me like!:blushed:


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## Sizzorhandz (Jan 25, 2010)

Drugs wont give me the answers to my questions, I've tried it. Love seems to be the only reason to continue, my love for jewelry, love for family, and the world that I live in.


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