# An Example of Se



## SuperunknownVortex (Dec 4, 2009)

Gauntlet said:


> You mentioned "experiencing and not making connections" in posts #13, #15 and #17; however, you continue to allude to making connections, not to thought/objective data (T) or possibilities (N) but how you felt. Fi is an inner value system. What you hold dear inside yourself and what moves you specifically.
> 
> *I as a thinker don't notice how the environment makes me feel. On the contrary my emotions are so removed from my self I can turn them on and off as if I had a light switch to do so.*


Yes, now that does make some sense. 

Now, this is unusual for me, as I'm more like what you said about being a thinker (in bold). I have been like for most of my life. I rarely notice how I feel, but more recently I've become more aware of that through my own growing self-awareness guided through counseling and being more spontaneous and active in my own life. I feel as if I'm metaphorically touching a function that I don't fully understand or comprehend (for instance, I use Ni and Ti without much thought, and I can be moderately aware of Fe, Se and Si if I catch myself).

[EDIT: I'm not sure why I felt so adamant against the possibility that it was the Fi function when it seems to me more reasonable to assume that it was, indeed, Fi matched with Se].


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

If you XSTP then it's your Fe that should be growing. Fi is easier to get to for an ESTP then an ISTP though. However, if you say you're using Ti and Ni, then that'd lean towards ISTP since Ni is an ESTP's stress function (unless as an ESTP you were in the grip of Ni and learned from it?).

Makes me wonder how an INFJ handles their emotions though (if they too have a light switch). Most NFs stated they are surround by their emotions or others' emotions constantly. And you do say Ni first then Ti, while you're beginning to experience Se...

INFJ: Ni-Fe-Ti-Se

or have you considered INTJ?

INTJ: Ni-Te-Fi-Se

The last two functions Fi-Se for an INTJ would make sense in your case (you'd be exploring your third and fourth functions now at your point in life).

So the questions you should answer yourself: 
Are you constantly surrounded by your emotions (Fi)?
Are you constantly surrounded by others' emotions (Fe)?
How much Te do you use? Perhaps it is getting confused with Ti? (though INTJs can usually use Te and Ti fairly well actually)
How old are you (doesn't need to be answered to the board, but 3rd and 4th functions start becoming more pronouced in the 30s-50s)?

Also some functions can be "look-alikes". You might want to refer yourself over to this *thread*.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Gauntlet said:


> Makes me wonder how an INFJ handles their emotions though (if they too have a light switch). Most NFs stated they are surround by their emotions or others' emotions constantly. And you do say Ni first then Ti, while you're beginning to experience Se...


No light switch here... I can neglect my Fe for a while, and doing so when not being around people is easier, but it doesn't make me feel well, and is quite detrimental in the long run. And it's not a matter of switching on or off, more of a repressive defense mechanism when life gets too rough.

At least for me...


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

Not sure how to respond superunknown except to say it isn't possible to use Ni Ti without thought. You could use Ne Ti or Ni Te (or reverse them) without thought. Maybe you need to check the cognitive definitions again. Try not to make up new rules on typing.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

TreeBob said:


> Not sure how to respond superunknown except to say it isn't possible to use Ni Ti without thought. You could use Ne Ti or Ni Te (or reverse them) without thought. Maybe you need to check the cognitive definitions again. Try not to make up new rules on typing.


INFJ: Ni dominant, Ti tertiary... What is it that I'm missing from your logic?


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

penchant said:


> INFJ: Ni dominant, Ti tertiary... What is it that I'm missing from your logic?


He made the comment that he used both of those without thinking. We use Dominant and secondary without thinking. The other two are used sparsely and only in certain situations. If his Ti is tertiary then he has to be secondary Fe (INFJ). Tell me how he uses them together without any trouble? 


> (for instance, I use Ni and Ti without much thought, and I can be moderately aware of Fe, Se and Si if I catch myself)


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

I could be misunderstanding the theory here, or just not being very good at introspection, but personally I can relate well to using Ni and Ti without any effort. I definitely takes more energy to use my Fe. But then, I see my Fe as much weaker than my Ti. Is this where we see things differently?


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

penchant said:


> I could be misunderstanding the theory here, or just not being very good at introspection, but personally I can relate well to using Ni and Ti without any effort. I definitely takes more energy to use my Fe. But then, I see my Fe as much weaker than my Ti. Is this where we see things differently?


Penchant that isn't possible if you are an INFJ. You are a feeler. Your feeling function will always trump your thinking function. If not then you are an NT (assuming you use intuition).


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

penchant said:


> I could be misunderstanding the theory here, or just not being very good at introspection, but personally I can relate well to using Ni and Ti without any effort. I definitely takes more energy to use my Fe. But then, I see my Fe as much weaker than my Ti. Is this where we see things differently?


It is possible if you're highly introverted and that you skip Fe to utilize Ti quite readily. It's called a Dominant/Tertairy loop when you prefer your tertairy over your auxillary. Or you are utilizing Fe and not really noticing it.


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## SuperunknownVortex (Dec 4, 2009)

Gauntlet said:


> It is possible if you're highly introverted and that you skip Fe to utilize Ti quite readily. It's called a Dominant/Tertairy loop when you prefer your tertairy over your auxillary. Or you are utilizing Fe and not really noticing it.


Nicely done. A voice of reason.


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

I see it as an excuse but ok sure.


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

SuperunknownVortex said:


> Nicely done. A voice of reason.


*coughs* Don't sing praise yet. Going into such a loop can have quite the negative consequences. We need our extroverted functions in order to grow balanced.

When an individual utilizes the Dominant/Tertairy loop too much it can just feed each other. Ni coming across an idea, and Ti feeding it without getting info from Fe can be disatorous. It's inner confirmation bias instead of confirming what one has come across with the external world.

Same can happen for extroverts.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Gauntlet said:


> It is possible if you're highly introverted and that you skip Fe to utilize Ti quite readily. It's called a Dominant/Tertairy loop when you prefer your tertairy over your auxillary. Or you are utilizing Fe and not really noticing it.


Yes, I know about the Ni-Ti loop, and think that I end up in it at times. I also probably use my Fe more than I realize, since I have a hard time seing how Fe works when it is used in relation to other external objects than people. I might also be confusing Ni and Ti. However, I know that I am more Fe than Fi and more Ti than Te, and it doesn't stack up any other way than INFJ as I see it.



TreeBob said:


> Penchant that isn't possible if you are an INFJ. You are a feeler. Your feeling function will always trump your thinking function. If not then you are an NT (assuming you use intuition).


I understand that in the long run I need my Fe to stay balanced and mentally healthy. What I do object to is the statement that it is not even possible to use Ni and Ti without effort. I do not see is why it would not be possible to feel comfortable using Ni and Ti in conjuction in the short run. I appreciate that this is not the normal case, so in general other more likely interpretations should be sought, but you seem to suggest that it is not possible at all. If I'm missing your point, then please let me know. And btw, do you have any suggested reading on the relation between the auxiliary and the tertiary?


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## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

SuperunknownVortex said:


> If you read how I've ordered my cognitive processes based upon six or so times I've taken the cognitive processes test, you can guesstimate what 'type' I am.
> 
> But I wanted to ask a question: what cognitive process would you say this is?
> 
> ...


It is Se, at a lower level. The fact that you say you became aware sounds like it was a sudden wow where did that come from. Nevertheless since you say you were not under any influence, it sounds as though whatever you had been preoccupied with cognitively was allowed to to be released, at least for the moment to allow you to enjoy the moment. When you say you become aware of how it all affects you and feeling in sync with the world gives some indication that you were also using Ti or Fi. In other words the chaos was internally put in some order for you. Take that with a grain a of salt, but it sounds like Ti or Fi followed by Se. Not necessarily in the capacity of dominant-auxiliary since it could just as well be your tertiary-inferior functions. I have experienced those moments and they are exhilarating.


talon235 said:


> In my opinion what you've described sounds more like Ne i because you seek to find the relevancy and connections that each observation represents to you and to everything else. (Ne= big picture Se = detail)
> 
> From my experience, Se gives me a feeling of separation with the outside world rather than a feeling of unity with it. From my Se viewpoint everything is separate and is its own entity and can be acted upon by me without affecting everything else. Every sight, sound, taste, smell, or touch is different and not connected and If I were to try to touch everything in a scene I would notice that some things might feel similar or look similar but they are still different.
> 
> Se is used by me to keep track of where everything else in the world is compared to where I am.


Vortex never said he associated the vivid colors with something else. Going back to the apple-puppy scenarios, Berens follows up the Se example for the apple tree experience to say, “You are one with the experience. There is no naming or describing – just pure vivid experience.” In fact when referring to those scenarios, it may be conducive to believe Vortex description also described Fi by reflecting on how much he really enjoyed to experience. Ne and Se do not put things into context or make any effort to judge it.

As for separation, only introverting function-attitudes give us some thoughts of separation, all extraverting function-attitudes have to associate and focus on things outside of the Self.


vel said:


> I remember doing this too. I was visiting a friend and at her place there were these small deep red flowers growing near by the window. I happened to see them and they just struck me as so amazingly beautiful that I just interrupted my train of speech and started talking about these flowers - she just gave me this look like "mmm, those are just flowers" lol.
> 
> I always dream in color and for some reason I remember the color in my dreams is always richer, deeper, brighter, and more fulfilling somehow that the colors I see when awake - I wonder if this has to do with my Se.


Which should be indicative of all INJ types who claim not to use Se. You use the same process at a lower level than the ISP type, but you can and do use it.


penchant said:


> I could be misunderstanding the theory here, or just not being very good at introspection, but personally I can relate well to using Ni and Ti without any effort. I definitely takes more energy to use my Fe. But then, I see my Fe as much weaker than my Ti. Is this where we see things differently?





TreeBob said:


> Penchant that isn't possible if you are an INFJ. You are a feeler. Your feeling function will always trump your thinking function. If not then you are an NT (assuming you use intuition).


You two are referring to two different things, yes Penchant can alternate his Ni-Ti. I do it as well in using my Ti-Ni, however they cannot be used in tandem or simultaneously. No two functions with the same attitude can be used simultaneously since we can only extravert or introvert one at a time. But in Vortex’ case, the experience began with the use of Se then the Ti or Fi came into play to describe how it made him feel internally. At this point I am inclined to say it was Fi-Se, which can be used by ISFPs, INTJs, and if you consider it may have been the Se followed by Fi, ENTJs


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

TreeBob said:


> I completely agree with Talon. For sure primary Se users don't really know we are one with the world or actually take time to see the beauty. We just go out, do and accept. His theory about you describing Ne could actually be true so maybe you shouldn't discredit it too quickly. Talon isn't spouting philosophical he is trying to explain how Se dom users are.


This could also be due to you being an STP vs. an SFP. I think SFPs are more likely to be acutely aware of beauty and effect than STPs who may be more inclined to just "do and accept" as you've said here. This would be why ESFPs often dress well or ISFPs create art...it's a Feeling expression of what is being taken in with Se.

I relate to what she's saying, but I experience it any time the sun is shining warmly on me and I look at the flowers and the trees, and feel the ground underneath my bare feet. It's enjoying all the sensations of preparing and eating food. It's being intensely affected by whether or not the environment is beautiful, sensual, and comforting, or boring, dry, and sterile. 

So it could very well be Se combined with Fi rather than wrapped up in Ti. 

On the other hand, I'm inclined to say that Se doms are more inclined to just do and be. Se aux may have a different experience.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

fourtines said:


> This could also be due to you being an STP vs. an SFP. I think SFPs are more likely to be acutely aware of beauty and effect than STPs who may be more inclined to just "do and accept" as you've said here. This would be why ESFPs often dress well or ISFPs create art...it's a Feeling expression of what is being taken in with Se.
> 
> I relate to what she's saying, but I experience it any time the sun is shining warmly on me and I look at the flowers and the trees, and feel the ground underneath my bare feet. It's enjoying all the sensations of preparing and eating food. It's being intensely affected by whether or not the environment is beautiful, sensual, and comforting, or boring, dry, and sterile.
> 
> ...


I'm an xSTP and I create art, I appreciate the beauty of nature and the immediacy and sensation of experience. Feeling doesn't have a monopoly on art and good taste.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

madhatter said:


> I'm an xSTP and I create art, I appreciate the beauty of nature and the immediacy and sensation of experience. Feeling doesn't have a monopoly on art and good taste.


I never said it did, but I was trying to understand why an ESTP was saying that Se just accepts and does rather than being impressed by beauty.


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

fourtines said:


> This could also be due to you being an STP vs. an SFP. I think SFPs are more likely to be acutely aware of beauty and effect than STPs who may be more inclined to just "do and accept" as you've said here. This would be why ESFPs often dress well or ISFPs create art...it's a Feeling expression of what is being taken in with Se.
> 
> I relate to what she's saying, but I experience it any time the sun is shining warmly on me and I look at the flowers and the trees, and feel the ground underneath my bare feet. It's enjoying all the sensations of preparing and eating food. It's being intensely affected by whether or not the environment is beautiful, sensual, and comforting, or boring, dry, and sterile.
> 
> ...


I stand by what I said. I dont believe feelings has anything to do with it. I appreciate beauty as much as a feeler does. Being Se dominant (ESTP, ESFP) doesn't mean we live in an enriched world. It is our natural ability. It makes us more aware of the goings on and maybe by default makes us more agile. Like all other types though, we need to work on our ability. Anyone of any type can be better than us if they practice. I'm sure other non Se types have those Se aha moments and get caught up in their surroundings or whatever, but it is every day life for us. 

SPs aren't computer monitors with native HD support.


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## Aero (Nov 25, 2009)

Not everything necessarily has to be tied to a particular function, maybe it was none?

Also, when people are saying what is or isn't possible, it might be worth considering that nobody really has all of the answers, nothing has to be absolute. I say this because it can feel somewhat threatening at times when people say "you can't do that thing you're doing," sometimes they are right, sometimes not.

I wonder about the not being able to extrovert/introvert with more than one at a time thing. I can't say I know, but that is interesting. My experience with Fi/Ti seems to support it, I tend to run over a lot of thoughts twice redundantly, posted about it somewhere before saying it was like switching colors in Ikaruga (if you know the game).

For Se, I think I very rarely use it, but that I've learned to be able at least sometimes. Maybe it sounds dumb, but I got it from watching cats (had them around all my life and was fascinated when younger).They have this particular way with the world, it's really hard to explain. It's like if you watch a waterfall or such, it's going to go down and do what it does. Without interference, it's like a sure thing. Watching those cats, I noticed that when they did a big jump for example, it was like it was a guaranteed thing. Like they weren't TRYING to do it, they were just doing it, like there was no chance of failure any more than with the water falling. Like they were a force in nature every bit as much as anything else, just in sync with it, a part of it.

Of course they can actually make mistakes (miss jumps, etc), but often it just seems so rare. Again, I don't know how to describe it accurately, but from watching and understanding the mindset/perspective/feeling (by Ne+Fi?) I believe I was able to mimic it. I used that state of mind and jumped a fence. It was a fairly basic thing, and I could have done it without, so maybe I just look crazy here, but the difference is like I said, it was like there was no chance of failure. Like it was just the way things were going to be, it was set to happen like a law of nature. Very much the opposite of absent-mindedly walking into a pole, for example. A kind of awareness where you just do it without thinking.

It's so frustrating to try to put into words. Anyways I'm under the impression that thing is Se, it sounds like it at least. I can't maintain it long without focusing on it, but I think I've at least found it and can get there. It's uncomfortable though, always a pull to stop and go back to what's more comfortable. I also get anxious like I'm holding back or ignoring something more important or that I'm missing out on something. (Easy to assume that would be Ne.)

I don't know if I had a point, just had to say that. :blushed:


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

This sounds very much like me. At least when I'm actually out and about and paying attention, I get totally absorbed by beautifull sights, smells, feelings like that. I feel so at peace and so alive in those moments.


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