# Narcissistic personality disorder



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

What is the difference between this diagnosis and body dysmorphic disorder? How do you defend yourself when someone thinks you're too into yourself? If you're insecure and obsess over how you look, if you often down on your looks and say "They're better than me" or "that person is smarter than me, I feel so stupid" with a constant down playing of yourself, is that narcissism? Thanks for your answers.


----------



## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

chip said:


> What is the difference between this diagnosis and body dysmorphic disorder? How do you defend yourself when someone thinks you're too into yourself? If you're insecure and obsess over how you look, if you often down on your looks and say "They're better than me" or "that person is smarter than me, I feel so stupid" with a constant down playing of yourself, is that narcissism? Thanks for your answers.


Body dysmorphic disorder is an incorrect perception of ones own physical state: NPD is an over inflated sense of importance, like confidence on steroids.
Narcissistic personality disorder Symptoms - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic


----------



## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

I don't understand why people with low self-esteem are always lumped together with narcissists. Aren't they polar opposites?


----------



## Johnston (Dec 16, 2012)

Powerhouse said:


> I don't understand why people with low self-esteem are always lumped together with narcissists. Aren't they polar opposites?


Without delving too much into details: narcissism in general is directing (most of) your libido upon the ego. Libido ~= sexual + aggressive impulses. Focusing sexual impulses upon the ego gives you malignant self-love (e.g. grandiosity). Focusing aggressive impulses upon the ego gives you self-hatred (e.g. low self-esteem).


----------



## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

Johnston said:


> Without delving too much into details: narcissism in general is directing (most of) your libido upon the ego. Libido ~= sexual + aggressive impulses. Focusing sexual impulses upon the ego gives you malignant self-love (e.g. grandiosity). Focusing aggressive impulses upon the ego gives you self-hatred (e.g. low self-esteem).


Is it possible to counter these impulses, or is therapy needed to solve this?


----------



## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

Narcissistic personality disorder and body dysmorphic disorder are very different, but they can (not must) overlap in some individuals.

Depending on the "flavour" of the individual's narcissism (especially Millon's compensatory and fanatic/paranoid narcissists), there can be a tendency for body dysmorphia, resulting in eating disorders for example. Waller conducted a study about narcissism and narcissistic defences in people with eating disorders, and there was a correlation: Narcissism and narcissistic defences in the eating disorders - Waller - 2006 - International Journal of Eating Disorders - Wiley Online Library

Not every narcissist is the exuberant, histrionic and elitist "look at how great I am"-type. Some have very avoidant and more passive-aggressive traits and extremely low self-esteem, which they compensate for with displays of "martyrdom" ("but I do everything for you, can't you see how great and selfless that is?").
EDIT: @Johnston explained this very well in his above post: extremely low self-esteem and excessive self-love are just different sides of the same "narcissistic coin". That doesn't mean everyone with low (or high) self-esteem is a narcissist however. To assess this, you would need to seek for other signs, e.g. the individual's search for narcissistic supply, narcissistic defence mechanisms, signs of narcissistic rage etc.

So no, NPD and BDD are definitely not the same. They can go hand in hand on occasion however, but that's something only a professional can assess.


----------



## iemanja (Feb 5, 2012)

Huh, doesn't narcism mean you love/are obsessed with yourself? Why would anyone think lowly of the person they are obsessed with?


----------



## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

iemanja said:


> Huh, doesn't narcism mean you love/are obsessed with yourself? Why would anyone think lowly of the person they are obsessed with?


No, narcissism doesn't necessarily mean you love yourself. Only certain types of narcissists do.

And obsession with yourself can also include obsession in the negative sense, i.e. you hate yourself so much that you are completely unable to focus on anything other than your self-hatred, becoming completely self-absorbed. That on its own doesn't necessarily make you a narcissist, but if you develop compensation strategies and behaviours that are regarded as unsound (i.e. the compulsive search for narcissistic supply that can even morph into codependency, or projection/shifting blame), it does.

It's a tricky subject...


----------



## iemanja (Feb 5, 2012)

FallingSlowly said:


> No, narcissism doesn't necessarily mean you love yourself. Only certain types of narcissists do.
> 
> And obsession with yourself can also include obsession in the negative sense, i.e. you hate yourself so much that you are completely unable to focus on anything other than your self-hatred, becoming completely self-absorbed. That on its own doesn't necessarily make you a narcissist, but if you develop compensation strategies and behaviours that are regarded as unsound (i.e. the compulsive search for narcissistic supply that can even morph into codependency, or projection/shifting blame), it does.
> 
> It's a tricky subject...


Oh... well we learn new things everyday! Yeah, _dark_ and tricky.


----------



## Johnston (Dec 16, 2012)

Powerhouse said:


> Is it possible to counter these impulses, or is therapy needed to solve this?


It always depends on the person in question and the level of intensity of their narcissistic tendencies. They may be ingrained so deeply in the self that they can make up most of their stream of consciousness. And to quote @FallingSlowly :



FallingSlowly said:


> that's something only a professional can assess.


----------



## MylesPrower (May 8, 2012)

I think narcissism could easily manifest itself as low self-esteem or self-hatred. If one isn't content with their own being, doesn't that mean that they want better for themselves (regardless of how intrinsically 'good' and 'human' they are?) If you want perfection for yourself, and _that's_ the reason you can't like yourself; because _I have to be perfect, I have to be the best?_

...maybe it's not that simple but it seems likely


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Well, I have body dysmorphia disorder and I do rely on some people to help my self esteem by seeking reassurance, but I accidentally do it because I often complain that I suck, or I'm not pretty enough etc, and they reassure me that I am not, and that does make me feel better but it is only short lived. I am co dependent on my husband to reassure me but that doesn't make me full of myself. In fact, I often assume everyone is better than me in some way.


----------



## gestalt (Feb 15, 2011)

I've met at least one narcissist, and he literally did not give a shit about anyone. Stole his best friends girl, no remorse whatsoever. His justification? "It's what I wanted", and he may as well have underlined the word I about four times. It was very strange, almost surreal. Like staring into the true face of a monster that was at least partially hidden all along.

Some people are garden variety selfish and manipulative, but this was just something else.


----------



## Moss Icon (Mar 29, 2011)

Body Dismorphic Disorder is when a person has a skewered sense of physical identity, often an excessively damning opinion that they are ugly or in someway their body/features aren't "them". It's often a result of bullying and harrassment. See Michael Jackson for one such extreme case.

Narcissism is an obsession with the self, when one's focus lies excessively with the self. A narcissist will often believe everything revolves around them and will fail to consider or even notice others or their concerns. Narcissism doesn't necessarily mean you love yourself. It means you are consumed with yourself. That is, your focus is primarily on you, how other things affect you, what they mean to you. You, you, you. The narcissist essentially regards themselves as the only real person, and everyone else is just a celestial body orbitting them, their worth measured only in terms of how they interact with the narcissist. 

Self-esteem issues are often associated with narcissism because the narcissist is so intently focused on themselves that they may become overly critical of themselves. Sometimes a defensive reaction to this is to brag and boast and draw attention to their accomplishments - this resembles the more "obvious" forms of narcissism. Sometimes it's constant self-effacement. Sure, the narcissist has a low opinion of themselves... but the opinion itself is not the issue, it's the fact that all their focus is on themselves. This can be a result of a person being made to feel excessively self-conscious - be it for "good" reasons or "bad" reasons. If you are told for much of your life you are beautiful, or if you are told you are ugly, you will inevitably become preoccupied with your appearance, regardless of which opinion you have. 

Something I heard recently, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is being removed from the list of psychological disorders because it's s damn common! Basically the Western World especially has become so self-centred, so encouraging of individualism and self-promotion, that everyone is practically engineered to be narcissistic.


----------



## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

NPD people have to have low empathy. Otherwise they don't have it. Anyone saying otherwise is wrong


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Up and Away said:


> NPD people have to have low empathy. Otherwise they don't have it. Anyone saying otherwise is wrong


Would this mean they never ever apologize for anything wrong they've done?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

chip said:


> What is the difference between this diagnosis and body dysmorphic disorder? How do you defend yourself when someone thinks you're too into yourself?


you ignore them



> If you're insecure and obsess over how you look, if you often down on your looks and say "They're better than me" or "that person is smarter than me, I feel so stupid" with a constant down playing of yourself, is that narcissism? Thanks for your answers.


no, that's pretty much the opposite of narcissism.


----------



## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

Moss Icon said:


> Something I heard recently, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is being removed from the list of psychological disorders because it's s damn common! Basically the Western World especially has become so self-centred, so encouraging of individualism and self-promotion, that everyone is practically engineered to be narcissistic.


Don't know if that will ever happen tbh, because a lot of people weren't happy with the way it had been added to the DSM IV, and it has been majorly revised for the DSM V (which has just been published last year after a revision process that lasted well over a decade). 
There had been talk to drop it, but that was down to a whole revamp/elimination of cluster B personality disorders and their diagnostic criteria.

As it stands, it's still included, and I personally think it's good that way.

Empathy impairment is included as a criterion btw, but it can be dismissed if there are other significant impairments of interpersonal functioning, namely intimacy impairment (it's an "a or b" criterion now).


----------



## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

chip said:


> Would this mean they never ever apologize for anything wrong they've done?


If a narcissist suffers from empathy impairment (as opposed to intimacy impairment - it just has to be one of the two), they _might_ still apologise, but either not really mean it, or just do it for personal gain/to fuel their narcissistic supply. They are not necessarily aware of that though, because these patterns are very deeply ingrained into the psyche.

It is sometimes not that easy to tell certain personality disorders apart. Some of them have overlapping traits.

Avoidant personality disorder and covert narcissism, for instance, can sometimes look very similar on the surface, although most people would never think they have anything in common. That's where past history, motivation etc come into play.


----------



## Jamieluv (Jan 3, 2014)

Narcissistic persons make me nauseated. But people who are depressed or sad because they can't measure up are victims of their own expectations and what our world dumps on us from capitalistic greed to sell us perfection. Narcissistic persons make others victims and become CEO`s at cosmetic companies and pharmaceutical conglomerates. Jamieluv


----------

