# Societal and Personal Outcomes of the Freelance Gig Economy



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Do you think Gig Economy work is a net force for good? For the individual or for society as a whole? I'm thinking in terms of wealth accumulation, taxation, access to social services and social welfare, cost of health insurance, and any other significant factors that may be relevant. 

I'm trying to get a sense of the societal impact as well as the individual pros and cons (specifically in the US, but international feedback is also welcome). To define what I'm talking about, consider the business model for Uber, Lyft, and DoorDash. Also anything targeted at freelancing services, such as Upwork, Fiverr, etc.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

I'd like to see some opinions on this topic.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

My daughter did door dash for a bit.

It was not worth it for her in our area. Which I think is what you mainly would have to factor with anything driving related.

Our area has cheap mo fos. And the distance between the range of service is alot on gas. She did say she liked the extra cash. But she said she was tipped better waitressing at a bar that sold pull tabs, than she was with door dash delivery.

Me as a side person noticed that she appeared to spend the money faster. Because it was not given in more of a lump sum. So like 10 dollars here. Rando 10 there. Etc ya get it. Seemed like it was ok for fast cash. I would not personally desire it from observing as a full time lively hood.

And for society as a whole, I think it has negative impact. Mainly being that many of the service jobs we always relied on for late teens/early twenties to do in my area are empty because teens like the freedom of the fast cash jobs. Immediate gratification. Which means the wages for entry work go up. Which means the prices for services and goods go up.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Yeah I see that in a lot of areas gas prices make it almost negligible


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

I believe the gig economy is a precursor to smart contracts and smart cities, which I view as abuses of human rights.

The slippery slope may be a fallacy sometimes but it is ALWAYS a fact of better safe than sorry.

Unless the gig economy stays flat and doesn't overwhelm other economies, it is IMO _NOT_ a good thing. :///


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> Do you think Gig Economy work is a net force for good? For the individual or for society as a whole? I'm thinking in terms of wealth accumulation, taxation, access to social services and social welfare, cost of health insurance, and any other significant factors that may be relevant.
> 
> I'm trying to get a sense of the societal impact as well as the individual pros and cons (specifically in the US, but international feedback is also welcome). To define what I'm talking about, consider the business model for Uber, Lyft, and DoorDash. Also anything targeted at freelancing services, such as Upwork, Fiverr, etc.


Freelance and Gig work drive the prices down as there’s lower barriers to entry and thus more competition. However, the drivers/gig workers are also on average paid less per hour worked than conventional full time employees to keep the running costs low, gig workers would simply undercut each other. This creates a system where the poor gets poorer and the rich gets richer. I personally don’t care coz whatever the rules of the system are, I’ll play the game and ultimately win or do well in but I’m sure many of you dislike this imbalance in wealth distribution.


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## bifurcations (Jan 31, 2021)

I think freelance work might be worth it if you live in a country with very low wages compared to the rest of the world, but otherwise, the ads on websites like UpWork almost always seem to offer half or less of what you would make in the United States per hour at a full time job with those skills. You're competing with the entire world on websites like that.

Also, freelance work might not be great for the consumer. I had a friend who tried to get a website built through freelancers on websites like Fiverr, and they literally got scammed about three times. The people they hired did zero work. Each time, my friend had to fight the company to get back their money. And my friend offered a very decent wage for the work, too. They thought that would attract great freelancers, but the freelancers they attracted ended up being paper dragons (people with incredible resumes and no skills).

Come to think of it, I have another friend who was pretty much scammed in a similar manner. They hired a freelance editor on one of those types of websites, and the lady pretty much just deleted ellipses (...) and deleted a word here and there, and that cost my friend $3,000. There was no content editing, and negligible copy editing. But the editor had great ratings and recommendations and a degree and all that stuff.


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## Warp11 (Jul 13, 2016)

As a supplement for extra funds, sure. As a long term employment plan, generally no. 
I don't believe this to be the correct path to sustainable income. 

But in truth I haven't done much (any) research to defend my position about society as a whole. This is a gut feeling based on observing the change in employment standards throughout the decades. As usual, a few will benefit greatly, most will get by and the remaining others will be left behind.

Many of you are under 40, judging by a recent member age poll. 
It doesn't matter what type you are, when you're 40+ you will not want to be chasing down work like what the gig economy offers.
Think long term.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

bifurcations said:


> I think freelance work might be worth it if you live in a country with very low wages compared to the rest of the world, but otherwise, the ads on websites like UpWork almost always seem to offer half or less of what you would make in the United States per hour at a full time job with those skills. You're competing with the entire world on websites like that.
> 
> Also, freelance work might not be great for the consumer. I had a friend who tried to get a website built through freelancers on websites like Fiverr, and they literally got scammed about three times. The people they hired did zero work. Each time, my friend had to fight the company to get back their money. And my friend offered a very decent wage for the work, too. They thought that would attract great freelancers, but the freelancers they attracted ended up being paper dragons (people with incredible resumes and no skills).
> 
> Come to think of it, I have another friend who was pretty much scammed in a similar manner. They hired a freelance editor on one of those types of websites, and the lady pretty much just deleted ellipses (...) and deleted a word here and there, and that cost my friend $3,000. There was no content editing, and negligible copy editing. But the editor had great ratings and recommendations and a degree and all that stuff.


It is easy to exploit these online platforms, with international access and limited accountability.

I’m seeking work in science illustration, and in the last twenty years or so the profession has moved more into relying on freelancing rather than staff/permanent or in-house positions. This has created more pressure for artists to have additonal skills and to diversify their sources of income, seeking a broad reach (like advertising on “gig” sites and social media). Artists are being paid less to do more. From my observation, this setup leads to a decrease in the quality of work.

While there are some advantages in terms of autonomy, and you hear these claims about flexibility, it is really a sign of constricted opportunities in the job market.









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Job security is a key reason people choose traditional employment over independent work. But declining perceptions of job security, coupled with workers rethinking what they want when it comes to work/life balance, are leading more people to prioritize flexibility, autonomy, and control when...




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It would be kind of neat to see independent contractors become a dominant norm for a stable and high-functioning workforce, but there would be some growing pains and rethinking the expectations and standards of business.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Squirt said:


> It would be kind of neat to see independent contractors become a dominant norm for a stable and high-functioning workforce, but there would be some growing pains and rethinking the expectations and standards of business.


Why do you think that would be better for a stable and high-functioning workforce?


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Why do you think that would be better for a stable and high-functioning workforce?


Many small providers of goods/services operating independently might be more resilient and responsive to change, avoiding the "too big to fail" trap. Just speculating though. I haven't formed any well-researched opinion about it. 

This topic is really interesting and so I'd like to hear more perspectives.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Squirt said:


> Many small providers of goods/services operating independently might be more resilient and responsive to change, avoiding the "too big to fail" trap. Just speculating though. I haven't formed any well-researched opinion about it.
> 
> This topic is really interesting and so I'd like to hear more perspectives.


I see. So that would lead to a less efficient industry overall, but would add robustness to the industry as a whole. Something COVID has revealed that pursuing efficiency by size has its downsides. Especially if pandemics are to occur more often going forward. A prediction that I seriously hope is wrong, but increasing population density makes that more likely to happen.

Yeah, it's an interesting topic to discuss.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Scoobyscoob said:


> I see. So that would lead to a less efficient industry overall, but would add robustness to the industry as a whole.


Depending on how you define efficiency, I suppose. It seems to be a recurrent balancing act - standardizing and streamlining can make a process faster or cheaper or easier but also less adaptable. You don't want to introduce potentially catastrophic limitations by standardizing... for instance, primarily relying on large employers to provide affordable healthcare for citizens. How a process is standardized/streamlined needs to be considered carefully for negative consequences as well as gains, imo.

I'd think you could add scalability to a "gig" workforce, so the trade-off isn't so severe. My initial thoughts are the role of guilds, or short-term charters for specific projects that require a higher level of organization (how corporations originated). The marketplace platforms used currently are okay, but as noted above are exploited often.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Squirt said:


> Depending on how you define efficiency, I suppose. It seems to be a recurrent balancing act - standardizing and streamlining can make a process faster or cheaper or easier but also less adaptable. You don't want to introduce potentially catastrophic limitations by standardizing... for instance, primarily relying on large employers to provide affordable healthcare for citizens. How a process is standardized/streamlined needs to be considered carefully for negative consequences as well as gains, imo.
> 
> I'd think you could add scalability to a "gig" workforce, so the trade-off isn't so severe. My initial thoughts are the role of guilds, or short-term charters for specific projects that require a higher level of organization (how corporations originated). The marketplace platforms used currently are okay, but as noted above are exploited often.


I think you'd be surprised how much adaptability is required in a process. Everything you use was likely made with some chemicals at a plant that use processes that're hundreds of years old. Standardizing everything is how you can buy a steak for dinner tonight when three to four hundred years ago, literally only royalty and the nobility could afford that luxury.

Well, I'm not too sure about allowing a gig economy to continue. I wouldn't want to be a part of it, not depending on it to provide for my family and I anyway. Otherwise, that sounds regressive. The gilded age ended for a reason. There're no more land to claim and a population a past era like that could support.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Scoobyscoob said:


> I think you'd be surprised how much adaptability is required in a process. Everything you use was likely made with some chemicals at a plant that use processes that're hundreds of years old. Standardizing everything is how you can buy a steak for dinner tonight when three to four hundred years ago, literally only royalty and the nobility could afford that luxury.


And then you end up with animal and human rights abuses, disease outbreaks for animals and humans, species extinction, massive pollution and environmental degradation, exhaustion of resources, heart disease, obesity, etc. caused by that efficiency.

Just to focus on one of those consequences: Disease outbreaks continue to be a major problem in meat production and so much money and resources are utterly wasted culling animals. The demands of production and attempts at efficiency to meet it leads to conditions that exacerbate disease, as well as creating threats to human health. 

Meat industries operating at this industrial level are very fragile and require extraordinary oversight, continuous investment and maintenance to prevent them from collapsing or causing major damage. So, the standardization in this case is detrimental and actually leads to food insecurity, despite the illusion of ease created by the luxury of 24/7 access to juicy steaks.

Oh man... I don't want to digress too much! 😅



Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, I'm not too sure about allowing a gig economy to continue. I wouldn't want to be a part of it, not depending on it to provide for my family and I anyway. Otherwise, that sounds regressive. The gilded age ended for a reason. There're no more land to claim and a population a past era like that could support.


Yeah, in the current state it isn't very sustainable. It would need to be something new in response, not regressive. It also seems regressive to try to go back to "business as usual" rather than seek improvement on the old paradigm, considering the new conditions. So... I'm not willing to throw out the idea, lol.

How does land use and a larger population make independent contracting unfeasible?


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

I have a lot of thoughts on it, but it's hard for me to organize. Basically for an individual who is hard up for cash, or who could really use every bit of extra income they can get, then the gig economy can be a godsend. But for society as a whole, I'm not sure it's a positive. Overall, the individual has to pay more taxes right? And has more out of pocket costs for insurance, equipment, repairs, etc. Also, I'm not sure about this, but wouldn't it also effect someone's eligibility for governmental retirement benefits later if they spend too much time outside of the traditional workplace?


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> Freelance and Gig work drive the prices down as there’s lower barriers to entry and thus more competition. However, the drivers/gig workers are also on average paid less per hour worked than conventional full time employees to keep the running costs low, gig workers would simply undercut each other. *This creates a system where the poor gets poorer and the rich gets richer. I personally don’t care coz whatever the rules of the system are, I’ll play the game and ultimately win or do well in but I’m sure many of you dislike this imbalance in wealth distribution.*


Now you know I dislike it. Would love to have you on my team here fighting for the social good ENTJ. Just like we talked about remember? You'll still be a winner, I promise.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Warp11 said:


> As a supplement for extra funds, sure. As a long term employment plan, generally no.
> I don't believe this to be the correct path to sustainable income.
> 
> But in truth I haven't done much (any) research to defend my position about society as a whole. This is a gut feeling based on observing the change in employment standards throughout the decades. As usual, a few will benefit greatly, most will get by and the remaining others will be left behind.
> ...


I agree. Unfortunately I'm not sure that long-term thinking is a luxury many young people have these days. I heard the older millennials aged roughly 35-41 are just now beginning to find their footing. I think Gen Z is struggling the most. But many still have the financial support of their families to help them through. 



Squirt said:


> It would be kind of neat to see independent contractors become a dominant norm for a stable and high-functioning workforce, but there would be some growing pains and rethinking the expectations and standards of business.


That's the very trend that has me thinking. Low confidence in traditional 9-5s. People longing for the nostalgia of times when your work was individual or familial, and you could see the direct beginning to end of a completed project. No cog in a wheel BS driving you further and further from your home values. But I'm not sure we have the right business standards to satisfy both practical concerns and idealistic ones. As @Scoobyscoob was mentioning, there are a lot of benefits to the kind of efficiency standards we have now. But I think something is breaking down a bit in the collective psyche. I don't know which way the thing will swing.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Personally with regard to post #18

I think there will be another recession sooner than later. So I see many of these things current soon collapsing. Right now we have many open jobs. If we really did have a recession like I predict, well upper middle class people having their incomes reduced or lost will not be buying grub hub if ya follow me. They also will not be supporting influencers, purging on Amazon, etc etc etc. All the trendy niche freelance gigs will disappear in my opinion.

I am in no way a finance expert, nor am I claiming to be one. It is my meandering thought on what will happen soon though.

Anyways, with that. I think it is MUCH safer with the economic instability to get in to a fairly decent position. If you go somewhere that is at least fair and decent, that is struggling to get employees before a recession happens well better to have your foot in that door. Just remember the first jobs to disappear in recessions is people with jobs that can be down sized and easily replaced later. Those are many of the people right now in society splurging and still buying grub hub or door dash, or using some of these niche services. Basically many of the people with the most disposable positions came into their incomes in more recent times, and they can lose those positions and money just as easy.

My hunch is the people who are tightening their belts right now is everyone who did not have that sudden niche jump in income.

You do you.

But if I was you. Which I was in the sense I had to figure out which direction I wanted to go with employment. I'd want to get in somewhere that has stability. There will be many people in for a very rude awakening if there is a recession banging on doors wishing they could get one of those fast food jobs the balked at and skipped past that other generations did not. Not saying get a fast food job if you do not want. I am saying many places are being forced to pay higher due to the employee shortage for these positions. If there is a recession they will not keep increasing wages. Wage demands usually go up when inflation does. As soon as we have deflation the companies will have control again of wages.

That is my view. Now is the best time to get an easy entry position, or lower stress middle position. As far as wage. Those wages are locked in. If we have a recession and everything is deflated your income will have more value locked in when prices all start to drop. If you keep your debt low, and expenses low you should be fine when many who had extended expenses start get forecloses and bankrupted and trying to close in on positions they otherwise balked at or skipped past. Ya don't want to be one of the ones banging down doors to get a job at a lower wage. 

My opinion on this is as someone who was 25 when the 2008 recession happened. Lots of similarities in things happening that happened then right before recession.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

OrchidSugar said:


> That's the very trend that has me thinking. Low confidence in traditional 9-5s. People longing for the nostalgia of times when your work was individual or familial, and you could see the direct beginning to end of a completed project. No cog in a wheel BS driving you further and further from your home values. But I'm not sure we have the right business standards to satisfy both practical concerns and idealistic ones. As @Scoobyscoob was mentioning, there are a lot of benefits to the kind of efficiency standards we have now. But I think something is breaking down a bit in the collective psyche. I don't know which way the thing will swing.


Currently, our economy is built to cater to "big business" interests. The "gig economy" trend is an opportunity to change that with a transition to small or independent contracting (which isn't just trendy crap but providing actual necessary and useful services), but that opportunity will probably be wasted.

Social safety nets and taxes would need to be updated or modified to support more independent work, which should be happening anyway. I've found it ludicrous that very small businesses (like with one employee) are often subject to the same bloated legal requirements as international corporations with thousands of employees and lobbying power, for example. It is "efficient" for paperwork but also prevents growth of new businesses.

I'd rather see changes for the better than go with whatever appears the most stable in the moment, because the latter causes people to put up with more bullshit than they should.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

OrchidSugar said:


> No I don't think you're endorsing it. I think I've blended some different kinds of work styles in my original topic. The only reason I blended them is because there is a little overlap. But a skilled graphic designer taking on clients of their own and setting their own schedules and rates, is not in the same position as a graphic designer offering their services on Fiverr. These two may be in direct competition though. That's why I included Freelance and Gig Economy together. I'm not sure they can be discussed separately.


Since platforms like Fiverr rely on freelancers, they do have some sway in how the platform will operate, as do the clients. If clients don't want to be ripped off, Fiverr should improve their standards for who can advertise on their site or risk losing business. If freelancers want to be paid decently for their work, they won't use Fiverr unless they offer decent terms. If that platform can't get rich quick because of these pressures, it may go away or be replaced by less predatory businesses.

This is where being desperate or willing to just take anything because it is the path of least resistance becomes a problem for positive change.

Same old story, though.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> Question authority.


True, I never argue with the boss, I just do what he wants then be there to fix it once it doesn’t work even if I knew it wouldn’t work ahead of time lol.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> True, I never argue with the boss, I just do what he wants then be there to fix it once it doesn’t work even if I knew it wouldn’t work ahead of time lol.


See now this is why you are the master and I am the grasshopper. 

Me I have to write a dissertation explaining why everyone should kiss my ass. "Do you remember what I told you on March 14th, 2021 at approximately 11:42am? It was a cold and stormy day..."


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Yeah, the way things are now, those are the downsides. I never said we should keep things the way they are now. Positive change comes incrementally, unless you'd suggest revolution which something I would be best avoided.
> 
> Yep, one of the downsides to factory farming.
> 
> ...


Haha, I like how your mind is turning on this! 

I don't think having a strong and thriving freelance economy is necessarily regressive. We do have a global networks and connectivity now - which should open more possibilities that doesn't just rely on the current, not-so-appealing gig economy platforms. 

I'm guessing you mentioned medieval organizations because I brought up guilds? They are not just medieval... they are current, and a way for various trades to network, produce standards and connect with clients (without any dumb Fiverr). I went to a conference organized by one not long ago.

On that note... how do you think unions might figure in? There has been an uptick in union organizing lately, too. (This question is for everyone.)


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Squirt said:


> Haha, I like how your mind is turning on this!
> 
> I don't think having a strong and thriving freelance economy is necessarily regressive. We do have a global networks and connectivity now - which should open more possibilities that doesn't just rely on the current, not-so-appealing gig economy platforms.
> 
> ...


Thanks. 🙂

It's not regressive in terms of socially, but the net effect is that it's regressive in real wages. With the way things are currently. Plus, I'm pretty sure you would not want to be competing with everyone on the internet and wants to compete with you. If there's anything I've learned, it's to never let yourself into a position where someone can take from you and if you want to be well-liked don't put yourself into a situation where you can take from someone, someone who may not be doing as well as you.

Yeah and I forgot that guilds still exist today. I think trying to create an entire sector of commerce as a coalition of guilds is exactly how you get a bunch of cartels, syndicates and other groups of organizations that conspire to drive their wages up. So going too far one way and too far the other both would lead to undesirable consequences. So I guess I'm saying it requires a balance.

Unions of course should still be around. Yeah, I've noticed that more people are organizing and trying to form unions too. I think the problem is like during the 1970s to 1990s when being in a auto unions was more about controlling the company they're working for, and ended up nearly pricing themselves out of a competitive global market. That was a different time though, and most unions do protect their members from being abused and just being completely taken advantage of, and aren't trying to actively harm their employer by deliberately making the company employing them, uncompetitive. From what I've seen, a union is most effective when its members are skilled and that their employer(s) can't easily replace them.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Thanks. 🙂
> 
> It's not regressive in terms of socially, but the net effect is that it's regressive in real wages. With the way things are currently. Plus, I'm pretty sure you would not want to be competing with everyone on the internet and wants to compete with you. If there's anything I've learned, it's to never let yourself into a position where someone can take from you and if you want to be well-liked don't put yourself into a situation where you can take from someone, someone who may not be doing as well as you.
> 
> ...


So are you neo-nazi or not.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> See now this is why you are the master and I am the grasshopper.
> 
> Me I have to write a dissertation explaining why everyone should kiss my ass. "Do you remember what I told you on March 14th, 2021 at approximately 11:42am? It was a cold and stormy day..."


If you're explaining to people why they should kiss your ass then you're more master material than I am LOL I'm just a lowly salaryman slaving away for my boss, the only ass kissing I get are from gay men trying to hit me up.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> If you're explaining to people why they should kiss your ass then you're more master material than I am LOL I'm just a lowly salaryman slaving away for my boss, the only ass kissing I get are from gay men trying to hit me up.


No I am a very lowly employee as well. I just suffer from periodic amnesia when it comes to this fact.


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## Warp11 (Jul 13, 2016)

^ fake it till you make it 😉


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Or piss off all the higher ups and HR


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## islandlight (Aug 13, 2013)

I was a freelance editor. I did my own targeted marketing and got the kinds of clients I wanted. I charged what I needed to charge, and I made a living. So did/do many others.

If you depend on a website or app to instantly match you up with clients, you might see the money sooner, but it won't be as much.


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