# One Woman's Experience With Public Transit



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I think this story perfectly illustrates the sense of entitlement some so-called "nice guys" have with women, even to the point of invading their personal space or harassing them, and then become angry with the woman for having boundaries.

This comes on the heels of a friend of mine telling me today that a man followed her into the laundry room of an apartment complex, and she had to throw two laundry baskets in front of her to get him to back off, at which point he continued to follow her, like it was an amusing game, so she left the laundry room, approached another man and stood beside him in hopes his presence would protect her from the pursuit of the first man, who persisted all the way to the end, nearly getting in her face, and smirking at her, "I just wanted to talk to you, what's the problem."

This woman is in a committed five year relationship with a man she lives with and dresses very modestly. Not that it's justified under any circumstance, but harassment of women walking or commuting alone by males is constant, even in the U.S. 

This is why we still need feminism.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

How to cure the warped minds of some men?
Guess the only way to hopefully dispel such a view is to raise awareness with stories like provided in the link. To get men thinking outside of themselves and picture what it would feel like to be a woman and have a stranger approach you in different settings with different moods. I only assume that its because they can't see the full picture they don't see an issue with their childish behaviour. I guess a lack of social finesse can come into play, not knowing how to approach women in a reasonable manner and I assume they don't understand that being sincere is better than being cliche.


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## Verthani (May 8, 2012)

fourtines said:


> I think this story perfectly illustrates the sense of entitlement some so-called "nice guys" have with women, even to the point of invading their personal space or harassing them, and then become angry with the woman for having boundaries.
> 
> This comes on the heels of a friend of mine telling me today that a man followed her into the laundry room of an apartment complex, and she had to throw two laundry baskets in front of her to get him to back off, at which point he continued to follow her, like it was an amusing game, so she left the laundry room, approached another man and stood beside him in hopes his presence would protect her from the pursuit of the first man, who persisted all the way to the end, nearly getting in her face, and smirking at her, "I just wanted to talk to you, what's the problem."
> 
> ...



I was just reading this on the lady's tumblr the other day. I was a little shocked to see how bad it was for some of these women telling stories. To have to deal with aggravation like that most days would be horrible. I can't imagine how depressing it would get after a while. I think this guy was specifically maybe a little nuts, but it still only happened to her because she told him that she wasn't interested in talking to a strange man on the subway. 

I sighed and then LOL'd that one of the first comments was literally, " you should just drive a damn car if you don't like guys bothering you. Or just smile at them and be more polite." yes, being polite is what keeps women from getting harassed. Its not that they shouldn't be circling her like a pack of sharks looking for a meal, its that she should just be nice and talk to them. *rolls my eye out of my head and across the floor*


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

I don't see how this co-relates with feminism.

If you think feminism will cause others to respect you, you're wrong.

They either will, or they won't, feminism or not.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

Agree with @Erbse. How exactly is _more feminism_ going to stop these types of men from behaving in such a manner? Our culture is already at a point where this sort of behaviour is universally condemned not to mention illegal. There is no such thing as a pure society.

edit: after reading the blog I'm at a total loss as to how this could be equated to women's rights/equality. The man was clearly mentally ill.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

More feminism? Lol, what?


I wonder, if that man is attacking her, what the fuck feminism would do for her in that moment. Hell, what would _more_ do? Nothing. Instead of waiting for more feminism, I'd suggest she get a gun. Mace or a taser would work as well.


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## BooksandButterflies (Jul 26, 2012)

I have had some issues with men on public transit myself. It makes me feel so creepy! I had one guy who was like all over me! I wanted to slap him! I am a lady, and I expect to be treated like one! 
However, I know there are decent men out there, maybe even Mr. Darcy types! 
ugh, it's late, I'm rambling! Good night!


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

*sigh* Oh look, an article about something that happens all the time! Woopie! -_-

I completely agree that our vagina-hating patriarch called Amurrica has really bastardized the way men and women correspond, so it's not like I'm in disagreement with this chick. However...

While she's writing about just how awful it is that people attempt to start a conversation with her (I agree the initial line is fucking stupid, and if you're going to try talking to somebody try not to do so with the occupied), I feel it points out another gender problem: why do women never reach out to men?

Like the writer, I, too, take the bus to and from school. I have to take one bus to the bus station at a mall, then to school, and then from school to the mall to the Wal Mart and then walk home. I do this 4 days a week. Never have I just been sitting there, male'ing it up and a female just goes, "I should talk to this guy. He's cute/seems cool."

I realize this may be because buses are just transport and aren't social gatherings, but, I mean, it's not like that suddenly changes once I get to school or anything.

Furthermore, what shitty bus service doesn't have SOME form of security? Even my crappy San Antonio buses are loaded with security cameras, and if there's a problematic rider the bus driver will stop the bus and make them get off. I realize this is the subway, not so easy, but isn't there _something _she could do?

Also, can't you move from car to car in a metro? Moving would be good, I'd wager.

San Antonian men are notorious for this animal behavior. They do it all the time, and, much like the author, I've only ever seen it done to "pretty" girls. I see my share of larger, less attractive women every day, and I can only wonder if, god forbid, they are actually envious that guys don't hit on them. Because while these guys aren't who you may want hitting on you, isn't it kinda rubbing it in your face that even the gangsta/bro/immature fail men don't even want you?

Also, and I can't believe nobody brought this up

why in the FUCK doesn't she have an iPod? Whether I'm reading or not, the dangling headphone cords generally alert all people that I'm not listening to them. Seriously.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Wellsy said:


> How to cure the warped minds of some men?
> Guess the only way to hopefully dispel such a view is to raise awareness with stories like provided in the link. To get men thinking outside of themselves and picture what it would feel like to be a woman and have a stranger approach you in different settings with different moods. I only assume that its because they can't see the full picture they don't see an issue with their childish behaviour.


Many people are completely, utterly incapable of thinking outside themselves. They're still stuck on Stage Zero of Kohlberg's stages of moral development.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Shinji Mimura said:


> why in the FUCK doesn't she have an iPod? Whether I'm reading or not, the dangling headphone cords generally alert all people that I'm not listening to them. Seriously.


This doesn't always work. Some people will get right in your face waving at you until you have no choice but to direct your attention to them since it's impossible at that point for you to not know they're there.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

I'm confused.

Since when were these guys considered nice guys?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

@fourtines
Idk if this is generational. How old are these people? I can't imagine any of my peers doing that and not being scorned or ridiculed for being a weirdo. Or was second-wave feminism more successful in my country than yours.


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## Night & Day (Jul 17, 2010)

It's sad to know that people don't put themselves in others' shoes. They judge and even hate before they know you. Imo, the best thing anyone can do in those situations is to forgive the offender.

-- Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the Scriptures say, "I will take revenge; I will pay them back," says the LORD. Romans 12:19 Instead, "If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals of shame on their heads." Romans 12:20 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:21


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## Das Brechen (Nov 26, 2011)

In Japan, they have women only cars for the daily commuter trains since they had a problem with some creepers getting "fresh" with other female passengers. It seems to be working for them, not sure if they elsewhere in the world. Yeah, those guys are not nice. Far from it. You want to talk about nice guys entitlement? Those are the guys who complain that women are just not that into them and that they should be getting some action on some kind of merit-based system. To me, that is completely ludicrous idea to even consider. It's like a sea otter dancing for fish. Absolutely demeaning. Women are either going to be into you or not. My advice to the genuinely nice guys is observe how the game is played and follow suit. In this day and age, I'm damn sure no still means no.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Shocking Red said:


> It's sad to know that people don't put themselves in others' shoes. They judge and even hate before they know you. Imo, the best thing anyone can do in those situations is to forgive the offender.
> 
> -- Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the Scriptures say, "I will take revenge; I will pay them back," says the LORD. Romans 12:19 Instead, "If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals of shame on their heads." Romans 12:20 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:21


 I'm not willing to wait until 'God' arrives to distribute punishment to wrong acts. That's the job of the man-made justice system.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Das Brechen said:


> In Japan, they have women only cars for the daily commuter trains since they had a problem with some creepers getting "fresh" with other female passengers. It seems to be working for them, not sure if they elsewhere in the world. Yeah, those guys are not nice. Far from it. You want to talk about nice guys entitlement? Those are the guys who complain that women are just not that into them and that they should be getting some action on some kind of merit-based system. To me, that is completely ludicrous idea to even consider. It's like a sea otter dancing for fish. Absolutely demeaning. Women are either going to be into you or not.


The "nice guy" sense of entitlement is ridiculous. Women are not obligated to be interested in you. Period.

And it's often the case that one should generally be skeptical of people who call _themselves_ "nice guys." For if one were genuinely a "nice guy," it wouldn't be necessary for him to _say_ anything. It should be apparent. (This applies for other things as well.)


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

fourtines said:


> I think this story perfectly illustrates the sense of entitlement some so-called "nice guys" have with women, even to the point of invading their personal space or harassing them, and then become angry with the woman for having boundaries.
> 
> This comes on the heels of a friend of mine telling me today that a man followed her into the laundry room of an apartment complex, and she had to throw two laundry baskets in front of her to get him to back off, at which point he continued to follow her, like it was an amusing game, so she left the laundry room, approached another man and stood beside him in hopes his presence would protect her from the pursuit of the first man, who persisted all the way to the end, nearly getting in her face, and smirking at her, "I just wanted to talk to you, what's the problem."
> 
> ...


I have a few problems with this my dear fourtines.

It seems the men she is talking about are the 'aggressive' type, not the 'passive-aggressive' type (nice guys, entitlement and such).

While I do think, personally, that both passive-aggressive, aggressive and even passive males when it comes to interacting with women that they want to be closer with is a massive fail and needs to stop - I can't help but be completely jealous of the female in the blog and if I could have that kind of attention from people on the train from females I would, supposedly (all subjective), have an incredible burst of positive emotion towards the circumstance.

Perhaps I can have more(than zero) people interact with me by closing myself off like the blog poster does? I don't think so.
It is quite a dilemma, wanting others to approach me but not wanting to do the approaching myself.


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## Kore (Aug 10, 2012)

PinkPizazz said:


> I have had some issues with men on public transit myself. It makes me feel so creepy! I had one guy who was like all over me! I wanted to slap him! I am a lady, and I expect to be treated like one!
> However, I know there are decent men out there, maybe even Mr. Darcy types!
> ugh, it's late, I'm rambling! Good night!


*thumbs up* for the Mr. Darcy types out there! 
--------------------------------------

I've never had a problem on public transport. I usually have men try to chat me up at the bus stop but when I start talking about my interests or what I'm currently reading, they go away.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> While I do think, personally, that both passive-aggressive, aggressive and even passive males when it comes to interacting with women that they want to be closer with is a massive fail and needs to stop - I can't help but be completely jealous of the female in the blog and if I could have that kind of attention from people on the train from females I would, supposedly (all subjective), have an incredible burst of positive emotion towards the circumstance.


The difference is that men and women have completely different experiences with attention from the opposite sex. How many men have experiences with being harassed by the opposite sex? Speaking for myself, I tower over the majority of people, and if I don't care to be bothered, I'm usually left alone. But for how many men would such a thing as unwanted female attention even exist? Female attention validates masculinity, showing how much of a man they are, and it boosts ego. How many men have occasion to feel their safety threatened by female attention? I myself have never encountered a woman who made me fear for my safety.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Master Mind said:


> The difference is that men and women have completely different experiences with attention from the opposite sex. How many men have experiences with being harassed by the opposite sex? Speaking for myself, I tower over the majority of people, and if I don't care to be bothered, I'm usually left alone. But for how many men would such a thing as unwanted female attention even exist? Female attention validates masculinity, showing how much of a man they are, and it boosts ego. How many men have occasion to feel their safety threatened by female attention? I myself have never encountered a woman who made me fear for my safety.


Do women really fear for their safety when a man approaches them?

Furthermore, would women fear _me?_ Haha! How absurd to think that of myself. I should approach a female to see what happens.

I think anyone can not want attention if they are busy with something such as reading. Myself though, I view it as okay because I have my whole life to do little things where as meeting a person could be important.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

goodgracesbadinfluence said:


> ALL children should be taught to treat others with dignity, respect, and empathy. You're absolutely right. Gender is irrelevant.


I know that. I am just trying to get all the facts in order to determine if I should be angry about that or not.


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## bromide (Nov 28, 2011)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Shouldn't we treat all children that this is true? Why make the distinction for males?


Yes we should, but if you read the context, I noted men and boys because the conversation is about how men can affect positive change in terms of the incidences of sexual harassment perpetrated against women, so I am talking specifically about male socialization.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

bromide said:


> Yes we should, but if you read the context, I noted men and boys because the conversation is about how men can affect positive change in terms of the incidences of sexual harassment perpetrated against women.


But you continue on as if this is a gender issue. It's really not. I have received unwanted sexual advances from women. I have heard horror stories about unwanted sexual advances from women: stalking, spreading rumors, gossip, trying to destroy relationships, etc. I was even there when a girl got a friend of mine drunk and tried to have sex with him when she _knew he was engaged._ While men should be empathetic to the fact that women have a rational fear of men hurting them based on past experience, women should also be empathetic to the fact that there are women out there that do try to destroy our lives for sex. I have witnessed it. It happens. It's not pretty. Again, this isn't a gender issue; it's an upbringing and/or mental health issue. The reason feminism gets a bad rap is because people associate any sort of dispute that involves aggression, violence, and/or sexual harassment perpetrated by a man onto a woman as misogyny and/or chauvinism when that might not necessarily be the case. Think critically, and you will see that this has nothing to do with feminism, and feminism should stay out of this.


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

My thoughts on this:

Everyone should respect the personal space of others. If a stranger tries to talk to you, and you aren't interested in conversation, politely say so. The person initiating the conversation should respect the other person's desire for privacy and back off. 

Everyone should learn some type of self-defense, because there are always going to be creeps out there, and you never know when you will have an encounter with one. 

Everyone should trust their instincts. If something seems "off" about a person, feel free to avoid them and/or leave the area if possible.

Everyone should read this book: https://gavindebecker.com/resources/book/the_gift_of_fear/

Here's an excerpt:
Throughout our lives, each of us will have to make important behavioral predictions on our own, without experts. From the wide list of people who present themselves, we'll choose candidates for inclusion in our lives—as employers, employees, advisers, business associates, friends, lovers, spouses.

Whether it is learned the easy way or the hard way, the truth remains that your safety is yours. It is not the responsibility of the police, the government, industry, the apartment building manager, or the security company. Too often, we take the lazy route and invest our confidence without ever evaluating if it is earned. As we send our children off each morning, we assume the school will keep them safe, but as you'll see in chapter 12, it might not be so. We trust security guards—you know, the employment pool that gave us the Son of Sam killer, the assassin of John Lennon, the Hillside Strangler, and more arsonists and rapists than you have time to read about. Has the security industry earned your confidence? Has government earned it? We have a Department of Justice, but it would be more appropriate to have a department of violence prevention, because that's what we need and that's what we care about. Justice is swell, but safety is survival.

Just as we look to government and experts, we also look to technology for solutions to our problems, but you will see that your personal solution to violence will not come from technology. It will come from an even grander resource that was there all the while, within you. That resource is intuition.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> But you continue on as if this is a gender issue. It's really not. I have received unwanted sexual advances from women. I have heard horror stories about unwanted sexual advances from women: stalking, spreading rumors, gossip, trying to destroy relationships, etc. I was even there when a girl got a friend of mine drunk and tried to have sex with him when she _knew he was engaged._ While men should be empathetic to the fact that women have a rational fear of men hurting them based on past experience, women should also be empathetic to the fact that there are women out there that do try to destroy our lives for sex. I have witnessed it. It happens. It's not pretty. Again, this isn't a gender issue; it's an upbringing and/or mental health issue. The reason feminism gets a bad rap is because people associate any sort of dispute that involves aggression, violence, and/or sexual harassment perpetrated by a man onto a woman as misogyny and/or chauvinism when that might not necessarily be the case. Think critically, and you will see that this has nothing to do with feminism, and feminism should stay out of this.


Men, as a rule of socialization, are taught to be sexual aggressors; in some social classes, in fact, men are looked down upon as not being real men for acting this way. This happens in many major nations, world wide. It's not like there's this one country where men do this.

Am I saying that men are biologically programmed to be invasive assholes? Of course not. In fact, traditionally upper class males simply would know better than to disturb a stranger while they were reading (male or female) and they would certainly know not to hit on women in random public places, then act like animals or even have the stupidity to claim "I would be so hurt and angry" if the lady in question refused the conversation. How can you be hurt and angry a random stranger doesn't want to talk to you? What the hell is wrong with you mentally and emotionally that you would be hurt by a person you'd never met before simply declining to chat? 

So yes, this is about feminism. NO, this does not happen to men as much as it happens to women, and that is because of socialization.

In fact, the way some men are responding to this thread is absolutely alarming, showing just how apathetic and even hostile some men are toward very real issues which exist in our society.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

marked174 said:


> How is that not offensive? And when did I imply that anyone was owed anything? There are rude ways of telling people that they are busy and kind ways of telling people that they are busy. I simply stated that people shouldn't try to defend their entitled right to be an asshole and that all the characters in this story did just that. Last time I checked, there isn't anything wrong with being offended and a little hurt when someone is rude to you. Please keep this in mind next time you wish to make hateful comments. thank you


It's rude to bother someone when they are reading. You were rude first. It's low class and trashy. You also probably wouldn't be a bit hurt if it were a woman you thought was ugly, or an old man.

Yeah, there's something wrong with misplaced hurt and anger toward a woman you've never met before simply declining to chat with you, especially since she's not your grocer, sales person, teacher, or nurse; just some random stranger who deserves privacy and space.

It is a huge wacked out sense of entitlement to think any stranger owes you conversation because they look cute, especially if you're not in a bar or party environment, or being introduced by friends or a dating site. 

And you telling me to keep this in mind is so entitled and insane I'm not sure even what to do with you. You said that woman has a sense of entitlement JUST BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO BE LEFT THE FUCK ALONE AND NOT BE HARASSED BY STRANGE MEN IN PUBLIC PLACES WHILE SHE IS READING AND WEARING A WEDDING RING.

Of course, people like you never realize you're the one with the problem, you'll go on being hurt and offended that other people have boundaries. I'll be as rude as I want to entitled people like you. It's the only way to get you to stay the hell away.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

fourtines said:


> Men, as a rule of socialization, are taught to be sexual aggressors; in some social classes, in fact, men are looked down upon as not being real men for acting this way. This happens in many major nations, world wide. It's not like there's this one country where men do this.
> 
> Am I saying that men are biologically programmed to be invasive assholes? Of course not. In fact, traditionally upper class males simply would know better than to disturb a stranger while they were reading (male or female) and they would certainly know not to hit on women in random public places, then act like animals or even have the stupidity to claim "I would be so hurt and angry" if the lady in question refused the conversation. How can you be hurt and angry a random stranger doesn't want to talk to you? What the hell is wrong with you mentally and emotionally that you would be hurt by a person you'd never met before simply declining to chat?
> 
> ...



You continually miss the point.
No matter how many times its explained, no matter how many ways the point is presented, you continue to miss it.


It isn't that you lack the capacity. It's that you refuse to try and understand it. You're dead set in your desire to turn this into an argument for feminism.


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## bromide (Nov 28, 2011)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> But you continue on as if this is a gender issue. It's really not. I have received unwanted sexual advances from women. I have heard horror stories about unwanted sexual advances from women: stalking, spreading rumors, gossip, trying to destroy relationships, etc. I was even there when a girl got a friend of mine drunk and tried to have sex with him when she _knew he was engaged._ While men should be empathetic to the fact that women have a rational fear of men hurting them based on past experience, women should also be empathetic to the fact that there are women out there that do try to destroy our lives for sex. I have witnessed it. It happens. It's not pretty. Again, this isn't a gender issue; it's an upbringing and/or mental health issue.


I never disputed that, we're talking about two different realms here. Public behavior among strangers versus people you know being assholes. Being harassed by a terrible person that you know is not the same issue as being harassed by strangers whilst walking down the street or sitting on the bus. My post was specifically in regard to harassment from strangers, there is a whole slew of other issues that come up when you're talking about interpersonal behavior among friends and acquaintances. Women can, of course, be terrible people, be sexist, and sexually harass. But they tend not to do it so much to strangers in public who are just trying to go about their day.



MegaTuxRacer said:


> The reason feminism gets a bad rap is because people associate any sort of dispute that involves aggression, violence, and/or sexual harassment perpetrated by a man onto a woman as misogyny and/or chauvinism when that might not necessarily be the case. Think critically, and you will see that this has nothing to do with feminism, and feminism should stay out of this.


Of course it's a relevant issue for feminists. Women grow up being told, "carry pepper spray, always go out in groups, don't walk alone at night," etc. Living in a climate where women are concerned for their physical safety far more than men are is very overtly indicative of a gender issue.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Men, as a rule of socialization, are taught to be sexual aggressors; in some social classes, in fact, men are looked down upon as not being real men for acting this way. This happens in many major nations, world wide. It's not like there's this one country where men do this.
> 
> Am I saying that men are biologically programmed to be invasive assholes? Of course not. In fact, traditionally upper class males simply would know better than to disturb a stranger while they were reading (male or female) and they would certainly know not to hit on women in random public places, then act like animals or even have the stupidity to claim "I would be so hurt and angry" if the lady in question refused the conversation. How can you be hurt and angry a random stranger doesn't want to talk to you? What the hell is wrong with you mentally and emotionally that you would be hurt by a person you'd never met before simply declining to chat?
> 
> ...


Why are women more important than men in this situation? Why should the focus be on women right now.

Yes men are trained to be the sexual aggressors, but men are also taught that no means no. Let's assume patriarchy disappears, how do we copulate? How do we court and mate? One person has to approach the other person. These men will still be sexual aggressors to women because everyone would be taught to be the sexual aggressor. This has nothing to do with patriarchy. Normal, healthy men do not go apeshit when rejected by a woman. Even if patriarchy is abolished, men will have a masculinity that they want to preserve, and those men that are insecure in their masculinity will respond poorly. It has nothing to do with the mating paradigm of today. It has everything to do with mental health and stability. Men get turned down all the time without freaking out.

EDIT: Edited out a rude remark. Apologies, I was heated.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

I for one can't wait for the modern wise, all-knowing feminists to solve this problem once and for all...so they can seek out another to harp on.

Wait...

...That's the point, isn't it?

Okay. Nevermind.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

bromide said:


> Of course it's a relevant issue for feminists. Women grow up being told, "carry pepper spray, always go out in groups, don't walk alone at night," etc. Living in a climate where women are concerned for their physical safety far more than men are is very overtly indicative of a gender issue.


Of course it is. Any guy bitching about this not being fair is either deliberately ignoring the world they live in or are lying for whatever reason. When a 21 year old woman cant walk home alone because she's afraid X might happen tells more about the social climate than it does about fairness towards men. Not to mention that this isn't about double standards by any stretch of the imagination. Men are never approached by women by the same volume, intensity or frequency of women. Men are also never going to be accosted by women the way women can if they go somewhere, wear the "wrong" thing or deny the attention to the wrong guy. It's a very gender specific issue and no manner of crying will ever make it 50/50 like some people are suggesting.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

bromide said:


> You know, as far as attractiveness goes, I am on the average end. Despite that, I could relate to that article a lot as someone who has used public transport for years. I've been felt up, had my ass grabbed, had my tits grabbed, had men breathe into my ear, press their boners against my back and a whole slew of other completely unwelcome things. I have also experienced many occasions where someone has tried to start a conversation, I've brushed them off, and consequently been the recipient of an insult barrage. Twice walking home I've had to pepper spray someone, and like I said, I am not even an exceptionally beautiful woman.
> 
> Men don't have to worry about their personal safety around women when they're out living their lives, and I think the result of that is, in some cases, an absolutely massive lack of understanding of how it feels to just be walking down the street or riding the bus and get harassed. People are asking what feminism has to do with this, so I'll explain. The important part of feminist discourse in this sort of conversation pertains to generating awareness for gender-based power inequalities. Why are there people viewing this subject with a general lack of understanding (indicating that women should feel flattered, saying that the discussion is pointless, or the knee-jerk reaction of the sarcastic 'of course men are evil' response)? This is because they do not personally have experiences of this nature and therefore feel as though the discussion is irrelevant. It's important not to view this sort of issue as being solely pertinent to women though, because there are things that men can do about this. These are...
> 
> ...


Exactly. Also, it's one thing to smile or say hello to a woman walking on the street in broad daylight, with her dog or alone, or in the park or grocery store.

It's entirely another to bother someone while they are reading, or to invade someone's personal space with your body, arms, breath, or hands.

And if a woman does not smile back, looks away, doesn't say hi, or says "please leave me alone"...just do as she says. No skin off your nose, I mean what the fuck. If a man said the words to me "please leave me alone" or "go away" or ignored me or gave me dirty look, and I had never met him in my life, I would not only leave him alone, I might even feel embarrassed that I invaded his space.

That's why I'm outraged at the men in this thread who feel entitled to a conversation with a pretty girl who hasn't been properly introduced to you, or in a social setting where romance is obviously more welcomed. 

It's fine to try to meet girls in the grocery store; but if she refuses to acknowledge your presence or says to go away, that's your cue to exit stage left; there should be no argument.

There should be no argument because women ARE sexually harassed constantly, and in some cases have even been endangered (I've been physically grabbed by a man on the street recently) ...dude, for all you know she just finished throwing up, has been crying all day over her sick mother, is tired from working, or is an introvert who has been recently drained by socially interaction. There could be any number of reasons why she doesn't want to talk to you.

No one is obligated to talk to you, if they are a stranger, and there isn't some kind of business interaction or safety issue that requires help taking place. This is a very American cultural sense of entitlement, that people should smile on command or acknowledge even the most trite intrusions by total strangers.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

bromide said:


> I never disputed that, we're talking about two different realms here. Public behavior among strangers versus people you know being assholes. Being harassed by a terrible person that you know is not the same issue as being harassed by strangers whilst walking down the street or sitting on the bus. My post was specifically in regard to harassment from strangers, there is a whole slew of other issues that come up when you're talking about interpersonal behavior among friends and acquaintances. Women can, of course, be terrible people, be sexist, and sexually harass. But they tend not to do it so much to strangers in public who are just trying to go about their day.


Correct, but that doesn't really separate the significance of what is actually going on.



> Of course it's a relevant issue for feminists. Women grow up being told, "carry pepper spray, always go out in groups, don't walk alone at night," etc. Living in a climate where women are concerned for their physical safety far more than men are is very overtly indicative of a gender issue.


It may be a gender issue, but that would be true even without patriarchy. I view that as a human rights issue rather than just women's rights.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

bromide said:


> You know, as far as attractiveness goes, I am on the average end. Despite that, I could relate to that article a lot as someone who has used public transport for years. I've been felt up, had my ass grabbed, had my tits grabbed, had men breathe into my ear, press their boners against my back and a whole slew of other completely unwelcome things. I have also experienced many occasions where someone has tried to start a conversation, I've brushed them off, and consequently been the recipient of an insult barrage. Twice walking home I've had to pepper spray someone, and like I said, I am not even an exceptionally beautiful woman.
> 
> Men don't have to worry about their personal safety around women when they're out living their lives, and I think the result of that is, in some cases, an absolutely massive lack of understanding of how it feels to just be walking down the street or riding the bus and get harassed. People are asking what feminism has to do with this, so I'll explain. The important part of feminist discourse in this sort of conversation pertains to generating awareness for gender-based power inequalities. Why are there people viewing this subject with a general lack of understanding (indicating that women should feel flattered, saying that the discussion is pointless, or the knee-jerk reaction of the sarcastic 'of course men are evil' response)? This is because they do not personally have experiences of this nature and therefore feel as though the discussion is irrelevant. It's important not to view this sort of issue as being solely pertinent to women though, because there are things that men can do about this. These are...
> 
> ...


Exactly. Also, it's one thing to smile or say hello to a woman walking on the street in broad daylight, with her dog or alone, or in the park or grocery store.

It's entirely another to bother someone while they are reading, or to invade someone's personal space with your body, arms, breath, or hands.

And if a woman does not smile back, looks away, doesn't say hi, or says "please leave me alone"...just do as she says. No skin off your nose, I mean what the fuck. If a man said the words to me "please leave me alone" or "go away" or ignored me or gave me dirty look, and I had never met him in my life, I would not only leave him alone, I might even feel embarrassed that I invaded his space.

That's why I'm outraged at the men in this thread who feel entitled to a conversation with a pretty girl who hasn't been properly introduced to you, or in a social setting where romance is obviously more welcomed. 

It's fine to try to meet girls in the grocery store; but if she refuses to acknowledge your presence or says to go away, that's your cue to exit stage left; there should be no argument.

There should be no argument because women ARE sexually harassed constantly, and in some cases have even been endangered (I've been physically grabbed by a man on the street recently) ...dude, for all you know she just finished throwing up, has been crying all day over her sick mother, is tired from working, or is an introvert who has been recently drained by socially interaction. There could be any number of reasons why she doesn't want to talk to you.

No one is obligated to talk to you, if they are a stranger, and there isn't some kind of business interaction or safety issue that requires help taking place. This is a very American cultural sense of entitlement, that people should smile on command or acknowledge even the most trite intrusions by total strangers.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

fourtines said:


> It's rude to bother someone when they are reading. You were rude first. It's low class and trashy. You also probably wouldn't be a bit hurt if it were a woman you thought was ugly, or an old man.
> 
> Yeah, there's something wrong with misplaced hurt and anger toward a woman you've never met before simply declining to chat with you, especially since she's not your grocer, sales person, teacher, or nurse; just some random stranger who deserves privacy and space.
> 
> ...


If someone asked me what I was reading, I wouldn't consider it rude. 

Attractiveness is not an issue, and an old man being venomous is just as hurtful as a young women being venomous. And, to be clear, anyone who viciously disrespects others is ugly, regardless of what they look like.

If I don't want attention from someone, then I will politely decline having the conversation using tact and grace, and I would expect the same treatment in kind. This ideal that we should live our public lives as hostile private islands is dismally bleak and tedious to me. 
I would also find it gruesome to live in a world obsessed with what I am owed, and it is important to understand that not everyone sees the world in such tainted terms. 

I sensed entitlement in the style that the OP blogger used and stated that it was how it was coming across, the wedding just makes her dishonest and disrespectful on top of all her other wonderful qualities.

Boundaries are a two-way street, when a person flings foul hate and disrespect, they are doing anything but respecting boundaries. Also, your "I'll be as rude as I want to you for what you've done" mentality is exactly what those crazy men were doing. Their sensibilities were hurt, and they felt justified in harassing the woman. They equally felt "I'll be as rude as I want to you for what you've done". It's the same twisted mentality when entitled people feel justified in treating others like crap. It's one of the biggest reasons why I see this brand of feminism to be nothing more than filth neck deep in the sewage of its own hypocrisy. Is being kind really so hard?


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

marked174 said:


> If I don't want attention from someone, then I will politely decline having the conversation using tact and grace, and I would expect the same treatment in kind.


Precisely. This is called "social skills." You're supposed to learn them in high school.
Not everybody wishes to coast by in life based on their looks alone, don'cha know?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Metros are notorious for strange/psychotic/abrasive people. Comes with the territory.
> If you don't want to be harassed, don't put yourself in this environment. It is that simple.
> 
> The Lord gave you legs for a reason, so use 'em.
> ...


Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast? Women also get grabbed, harassed, and even raped walking on the street. Also, for people without a car, it isn't always even possible to walk EVERYWHERE. I can walk for miles but I still need to take public transit sometimes to work meetings.

Should women stop also going to laundry mats? Maybe it should be like Iraq and Mexico where women are expected to be raped if they ever leave the house alone.

But this has nothing to do with feminism?

This thread is so full of stupidity, denial, entitlement, and herp derp derp that I'm pretty much done responding to your childish comments.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Precisely. This is called "social skills." You're supposed to learn them in high school.
> Not everybody wishes to coast by in life based on their looks alone, don'cha know?


Yeah...interrupting strange people while they're reading shows lack of social skills. Derp.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

fourtines said:


> This is a very American cultural sense of entitlement, that people should smile on command or acknowledge even the most trite intrusions by total strangers.


I have traveled the world and have had many casual conversations with complete strangers on buses and trains and on the street. Nearly all of them returned my friendliness in kind without any problem.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

fourtines said:


> .Am I saying that men are biologically programmed to be invasive assholes? Of course not. In fact, traditionally upper class males simply would know better than to disturb a stranger while they were reading (male or female) and they would certainly know not to hit on women in random public places, then act like animals or even have the stupidity to claim "I would be so hurt and angry" if the lady in question refused the conversation. How can you be hurt and angry a random stranger doesn't want to talk to you? What the hell is wrong with you mentally and emotionally that you would be hurt by a person you'd never met before simply declining to chat?


This part is puzzling to me, because—to use myself as an example once more as it's less likely for people to take offense if I make myself the subject, why in the would should I care whether some random stranger I don't know and will in all likelihood never see again doesn't wish to talk to me? Why would I be affected? I don't know them, they mean nothing to me, so why would I feel emotionally hurt? I shrug and go about my business, not giving it another thought. It baffles me as to how it could possibly mean so much that I would get emotional over it.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast? Women also get grabbed, harassed, and even raped walking on the street. Also, for people without a car, it isn't always even possible to walk EVERYWHERE. I can walk for miles but I still need to take public transit sometimes to work meetings.


Get a Segway. I read that Amazon.com is having a wholesale clearance.



> Should women stop also going to laundry mats? Maybe it should be like Iraq and Mexico where women are expected to be raped if they ever leave the house alone.


I think you're going to extremes here. Predators FLOCK to these areas.
PEOPLE get assaulted; stabbings, robberies and shootings are commonplace on subways.

Point is: It is a very dangerous environment for EVERYBODY.
Being an avid bookclub feminist makes it no different. 
It simply makes you a potential target, i.e.: Easier prey.



> But this has nothing to do with feminism?


Not in my eyes. Danger ain't exclusive to women in this country.



> This thread is so full of stupidity, denial, entitlement, and herp derp derp that I'm pretty much done responding to your childish comments.


Pity.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

marked174 said:


> If someone asked me what I was reading, I wouldn't consider it rude.


Speaking for myself, I would be wondering what reason some random stranger would have any interest in another random stranger's reading material.

Not to mention the fact that it's something they wouldn't be interested in anyway.

*True story the last time I was asked this question:*

"What are you reading?"

"I'm reading a book which explains why people continually make irrational decisions."

 "Oh..."

I've found it amusing how quickly conversation ends when nosy people find I'm reading something that holds no interest to them whatsoever.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

fourtines said:


> This thread is so full of stupidity, denial, entitlement, and herp derp derp that I'm pretty much done responding to your childish comments.


It's not really stupidity. It has been demonstrated that women regularly do the same thing to men for the same reasons in different circumstances. Now tell me why, when the issue is something perpetrated by both genders, it becomes an issue for one gender and the other one isn't really that big of a deal?


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## FacePalm (Jun 27, 2012)

Two foreign words: krav maga


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> It's not really stupidity. It has been demonstrated that women regularly do the same thing to men for the same reasons in different circumstances. Now tell me why, when the issue is something perpetrated by both genders, it becomes an issue for one gender and the other one isn't really that big of a deal?


Because that would invalidate the argument, which is supported by hyperbole and half-truths.
It really is that simple.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Because that would invalidate the argument, which is supported by hyperbole and half-truths.
> It really is that simple.


I prefer not to be presumptive, but these threads always make me hate feminism more and more.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

What's there to like about it in the first place?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> It's not really stupidity. It has been demonstrated that women regularly do the same thing to men for the same reasons in different circumstances. Now tell me why, when the issue is something perpetrated by both genders, it becomes an issue for one gender and the other one isn't really that big of a deal?


No, it's not a big deal for men, it happens to women constantly; women constantly fear for their safety, and YES it is absolutely stupidity for someone to say it can be avoided by walking when I've been physically grabbed walking before, and plenty of women are harassed or even raped while walking, and I also mentioned my friend in the laundry mat in the OP. 

And suggesting women don't take public transit is on par with saying "welp, if women leave home alone, they're asking for it."

It's complete and utter stupidity. Especially since the very definition of sexism means that one gender has power over the other, socially speaking.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Get a Segway. I read that Amazon.com is having a wholesale clearance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, well I know you from other threads, I know you're an avid woman-hating sexist.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Master Mind said:


> Speaking for myself, I would be wondering what reason some random stranger would have any interest in another random stranger's reading material.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that it's something they wouldn't be interested in anyway.
> 
> ...


One time, a guy asked me something similar to me on a plane. I was reading a book and I stopped to discuss it with him. We are still friends. Another time I was asked the same by an older gentleman on a train in Chicago. We hit it off and he offered me a job in his firm. I doubt those relationships would have had similar outcomes if I treated them like trash, but what do I know? lol


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

fourtines said:


> Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast? Women also get grabbed, harassed, and even raped walking on the street. Also, for people without a car, it isn't always even possible to walk EVERYWHERE. I can walk for miles but I still need to take public transit sometimes to work meetings.
> 
> Should women stop also going to laundry mats? Maybe it should be like Iraq and Mexico where women are expected to be raped if they ever leave the house alone.
> 
> ...


Will feminism help with the fact that there's a statistically higher chance that I'll be violently attacked while walking alone at night than any woman? You've completely ignored most of the arguments in this thread and merely continue the same debunked argument ad nauseum. This thread _is_ full of all those things, and your posts are responsible for a large portion of it.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> I prefer not to be presumptive, but these threads always make me hate feminism more and more.


And these threads make me realize how much it's still necessary, because of people like you and your friend Duck there.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't "hate" women.
I just don't like women like you.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Duck_of_Death said:


> What's to like about it in the first place?


I think the abolition of patriarchy would make everyone's lives much easier. However, to call that a strictly feminist pursuit would be folly. I don't know why the term is still used anymore.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

marked174 said:


> One time, a guy asked me something similar to me on a plane. I was reading a book and I stopped to discuss it with him. We are still friends. Another time I was asked the same by an older gentleman on a train in Chicago. We hit it off and he offered me a job in his firm. I doubt those relationships would have had similar outcomes if I treated them like trash, but what do I know? lol


You apparently have a sense of entitlement about invading other people's space, so don't mind when other people invade yours.

Newsflash: everyone isn't you. Some people have boundaries. Some people don't want to chit-chat. Some women are so tired of men hitting on them that they don't have the energy to be polite.

Also, anyone with even the barest knowledge of self-defense knows that "niceness" is exactly what gets women assaulted, rape and murdered.

That's like self-defense 101, Mr. Holier Than Thou. Take your entitled sheltered bullshit elsewhere.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

marked174 said:


> One time, a guy asked me something similar to me on a plane. I was reading a book and I stopped to discuss it with him. We are still friends. Another time I was asked the same by an older gentleman on a train in Chicago. We hit it off and he offered me a job in his firm. I doubt those relationships would have had similar outcomes if I treated them like trash, but what do I know? lol


I'm wondering who said anything about "treating people like trash."


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> I don't "hate" women.
> I just don't like women like you.


Yes, I'm sure you'd like me just fine if I'd get my ass in the kitchen and make you some pie; unfortunately for you, I only do that for either pay or for people who deserve my love and respect, I don't defer to men carte blanche.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

fourtines said:


> And these threads make me realize how much it's still necessary, because of people like you and your friend Duck there.


You don't even know him.

Imagine that... a feminist promoting judgment of a male because of he stands up for himself and his beliefs. Funny how you expect people to respect you when you stand up for your beliefs on feminism, yet when confronted with beliefs different from your own, you are disrespectful and judgmental. Expecting respect but giving none? Hypocrisy at its finest. Thanks, fourtines.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

fourtines said:


> Yes, I'm sure you'd like me just fine if I'd get my ass in the kitchen and make you some pie; unfortunately for you, I only do that for either pay or for people who deserve my love and respect, I don't defer to men carte blanche.


 talk about a victim complex. Do you even know the person you quoted on a personal level to make such a bafflingly insulting assumption about his character?


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Yes, I'm sure you'd like me just fine if I'd get my ass in the kitchen and make you some pie; unfortunately for you, I only do that for either pay or for people who deserve my love and respect, I don't defer to men carte blanche.


You're trolling within your own thread. Oops.
And I don't eat pie this time of season, so I'm keeping it light.

The holidays are coming up, after all.

EDITED TO INCLUDE: Bedtime, folks! Thank you all for the abundant laughter tonight!


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Master Mind said:


> I'm wondering who said anything about "treating people like trash."


I don't treat anyone like trash. I'm actually known IRL for being sweet, polite and actually pretty quiet. However, I am more blunt and assertive in situations where I feel someone is being intrusive, invasive, or it's after dark, for my own self-defense.

I don't treat people like trash. Not wanting to have a conversation because you're reading doesn't mean you're treating people like trash.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> You're trolling within your own thread. Oops.
> And I don't eat pie this time of season, so I'm keeping it light.
> 
> The holidays are coming up, after all.


I'm not trolling, I just think your behavior is predictable and despicable. You didn't even acknowledge what I said about walking or the laundry mat, or how some people MUST take public transit out of necessity.

You're the one trolling, I'm going to put you on ignore.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Ace Face said:


> You don't even know him.
> 
> Imagine that... a feminist promoting judgment of a male because of he stands up for himself and his beliefs. Funny how you expect people to respect you when you stand up for your beliefs on feminism, yet when confronted with beliefs different from your own, you are disrespectful and judgmental. Expecting respect but giving none? Hypocrisy at its finest. Thanks, fourtines.


I've seen Duck of Death in so many other threads, and am so disgusted with what he said about people should walk instead of taking public transit that I find your comment absurd.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

fourtines said:


> No, it's not a big deal for men, it happens to women constantly; women constantly fear for their safety, and YES it is absolutely stupidity for someone to say it can be avoided by walking when I've been physically grabbed walking before, and plenty of women are harassed or even raped while walking, and I also mentioned my friend in the laundry mat in the OP.
> 
> And suggesting women don't take public transit is on par with saying "welp, if women leave home alone, they're asking for it."
> 
> It's complete and utter stupidity. Especially since the very definition of sexism means that one gender has power over the other, socially speaking.





fourtines said:


> And these threads make me realize how much it's still necessary, because of people like you and your friend Duck there.


Point out my misogyny. Did I not mention that I am empathetic to the fact that, yes, men are on average much stronger than women and capable of overpowering them? Yes. Did I once say that this was not a significant issue for women? No. I simply pointed out that this is also an issue for men, and therefore not an exclusively feminist issue.

My issue with feminism isn't because I want women to be subjugated to the whims of men. My issue is that whenever threads like this pop up, if I point out that this isn't a strictly feminist issue, and hey maybe we should actually fight for equality, I am looked at as a chauvinistic slob. And don't presume that I agree with everything Duck says. He has said many things in that past that I vehemently disagreed with.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Master Mind said:


> I'm wondering who said anything about "treating people like trash."


"I'll be as rude as I want to people like you" (page 8) leaves some pretty vague interpretation. It could mean treating people like trash but it could also mean treating people like garbage or refuse or any other form of disposable waste.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Point out my misogyny. Did I not mention that I am empathetic to the fact that, yes, men are on average much stronger than women and capable of overpowering them? Yes. Did I once say that this was not a significant issue for women? No. I simply pointed out that this is also an issue for men, and therefore not an exclusively feminist issue.
> 
> My issue with feminism isn't because I want women to be subjugated to the whims of men. My issue is that whenever threads like this pop up, if I point out that this isn't a strictly feminist issue, and hey maybe we should actually fight for equality, I am looked at as a chauvinistic slob. And don't presume that I agree with everything Duck says. He has said many things in that past that I vehemently disagreed with.


What sexual threat does a woman possibly pose upon first meeting him?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

fourtines said:


> I don't treat anyone like trash. I'm actually known IRL for being sweet, polite and actually pretty quiet. However, I am more *blunt and assertive* in situations where I feel someone is being intrusive, invasive, or it's after dark, for my own self-defense.
> 
> I don't treat people like trash. Not wanting to have a conversation because you're reading doesn't mean you're treating people like trash.


To say that you're being blunt and assertive is like saying that Charlie Sheen was a little eccentric. You were downright rude and presumptive to me.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

fourtines said:


> You apparently have a sense of entitlement about invading other people's space, so don't mind when other people invade yours.
> 
> Newsflash: everyone isn't you. Some people have boundaries. Some people don't want to chit-chat. Some women are so tired of men hitting on them that they don't have the energy to be polite.
> 
> ...


In my case, it's not an invasion, and that makes all the difference.
Boundaries are a two-way street
It takes a lot more energy to be rude than polite
Self-defense 101 also states that you shouldn't provoke others by being disrespectful
As far as the hateful spewing at the end, I don't really know what to say. I thought a forum encouraged the healthy exchange of ideas.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

android654 said:


> What sexual threat does a woman possibly pose upon first meeting him?


I know what you're saying, but that's the immediate threat of the situation rather than the problem as a whole.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

fourtines said:


> I've seen Duck of Death in so many other threads, and am so disgusted with what he said about people should walk instead of taking public transit that I find your comment absurd.


Lol, I think you're so caught up in your emotion that you don't even remember who it was you quoted. Scroll back. Yes, you mentioned duck, but you were addressing Tux. So this comment of yours kinda tickled my funny bone :laughing:


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

marked174 said:


> Master Mind said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering who said anything about "treating people like trash."
> ...





marked174 said:


> Master Mind said:
> 
> 
> > marked174 said:
> ...


You directly quoted me and said you have been in similar situations, and ended saying you had relationships result from them which wouldn't have happened had you "treated them like trash." Since I was the poster you elected to quote, I was wondering if you could point out where "treating people like trash" was anywhere mentioned.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

fourtines said:


> I think one of the hugest problems with men is that they presume this kind of attention would be welcome and wanted.
> 
> However, my experience is the opposite; when I've shown very aggressive attention toward "shyer" males (even though I'm generally considered an attractive woman and have no problems attracting men) they freak.the.fuck.out.
> 
> ...


It is quite funny, I think that the self-proclaimed assholes are the nicest and most honest people around sometimes 

The only time I was approached by a female was when I literally had my face grabbed and she tried to make out with me. Don't know who it was still to this day.
I just wriggled out of it and walked off. I don't like surprises like that. I'm pretty sure she was on drugs.
Other than that I don't think it ever has happened. I think I would be fine with it, I don't think I would freak out because I do not feel threatened by most people. If anyone has ever started a conversation with me it's been because they were extremely drunk/high and a friendly male (although scary) anyway.

I can understand the invasiveness that would be experienced but it simply doesn't apply to me. I don't have things to hide or protect. I give most people a chance. The only exception is when I am on my way to some place. I will only stop to give someone directions or help someone.

People tend to ask me for directions more than anything... Lol

Anyway that's enough from me for this thread. Just my thoughts.


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## Sapphyreopal5 (Jun 11, 2012)

That is just ridiculous how butt hurt people get when they're socially rejected. Those teenage boys are obviously immature (not to mention probably not that intelligent) and that bicycle man... wow, he sounds just downright sore. He needs to learn the meaning of taking a hike on his bike :wink:
I believe this is a more of a general social problem that isn't just sex-related. People need to learn better socializing skills if you ask me.

EDIT: I'd delve into this more but seeing as how late it is, I don't want to make a post that'll make me think "wtf did I smoke last night?" in the morning ha ha.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> I know what you're saying, but that's the immediate threat of the situation rather than the problem as a whole.


 But the immediate threat is the issue discussed in the article. The man accosted a woman because she spurned his advances. You're saying that scenario happens in equal parts to men by women?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

android654 said:


> But the immediate threat is the issue discussed in the article. The man accosted a woman because she spurned his advances. You're saying that scenario happens in equal parts to men by women?


Not in the strictest sense of physical threats and intimidation tactics. The point that is being lost is that the immediate threat is an effect of a problem. If you want to solve the problem, you have to understand what it is. I have noticed this problem manifesting itself in other ways with women, so my natural conclusion is that this isn't a strictly feminist issue. Therefore, if we wanted to have a discussion about the problem, we shouldn't presume that it is a problem for just one gender or that the other gender doesn't really have a problem with it. Even without partriarchy, men are still inherently more kinesthetic and sensory than women, so they will naturally respond to unwanted stimulus in a more physical manner.


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

fourtines said:


> That's why I'm outraged at the men in this thread who feel entitled to a conversation with a pretty girl who hasn't been properly introduced to you, or in a social setting where romance is obviously more welcomed.


Life is not a cotillion, Highness

Quit enabling and start encouraging empowerment.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

android654 said:


> But the immediate threat is the issue discussed in the article. The man accosted a woman because she spurned his advances. You're saying that scenario happens in equal parts to men by women?


The scenario of men attacking women is _less_ frequent than men attacking men. Again, what does gender have to do with anything?


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

marked174 said:


> I have traveled the world and have had many casual conversations with complete strangers on buses and trains and on the street. Nearly all of them returned my friendliness in kind without any problem.


As have I. If you treat others with respect you will usually get respect back.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Master Mind said:


> You directly quoted me and said you have been in similar situations, and ended saying you had relationships result from them which wouldn't have happened had you "treated them like trash." Since I was the poster you elected to quote, I was wondering if you could point out where "treating people like trash" was anywhere mentioned.


Oh. My bad. I wasn't referencing something you said. I was merely pointing out that the way someone chooses to interact with others often alters the outcome, which was my original premise. I was trying to supply context, not claim you said something you never said.


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## BlissfulDreams (Dec 25, 2009)

I ran into a problem while on public transit once. I was sitting on the bus and was checking/touching up my makeup and noticed that one guy was watching me. I looked up at him and he gave me some sort of flirty/suggestive facial expression so I tried to ignore him. I got off at my stop and on the way as I was walking to the nearest bus shack, the same guy came out of nowhere and started following me. (He must have got off at the stop right after mine.) I got into the bus shack and he basically cornered me. I am quite small, so I was able to squeeze out. I was obviously uncomfortable and this guy was completely oblivious. He said that he saw me looking at him while we were on the bus (as if I initiated the flirting by simply looking at him) and he asked me if I liked what I saw. He was very direct about wanting sex and going out for dinner/me coming to his place and basically demanded I give him my phone number. I made up a bunch of excuses.

He kept following me around the bus shack and cornering me. When I looked toward the street, I noticed people's disgusted facial expressions as they drove by and noticed him harassing me and me looking uncomfortable. One woman even shouted for him to leave me alone and I had to tell them that I was okay. It made me feel good that other people were looking out for me, but to be honest, I think the only reason they noticed/cared was that he was a black male and I am a young, white female. Had the racial aspects been different, I doubt anyone would have noticed, cared, or said something. That thought depressed me.

The only good thing that came of this was that I got him to phone the bus service to find out when the next bus was coming so that I could leave.

I wouldn't exactly call that guy a nice guy, but that was my worst and most terrifying experience riding public transit.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Not in the strictest sense of physical threats and intimidation tactics. The point that is being lost is that the immediate threat is an effect of a problem. If you want to solve the problem, you have to understand what it is. I have noticed this problem manifesting itself in other ways with women, so my natural conclusion is that this isn't a strictly feminist issue. Therefore, if we wanted to have a discussion about the problem, we shouldn't presume that it is a problem for just one gender or that the other gender doesn't really have a problem with it. Even without partriarchy, men are still inherently more kinesthetic and sensory than women, so they will naturally respond to unwanted stimulus in a more physical manner.


In what ways are women manifesting hostility toward men in the arena of sex?



SuburbanLurker said:


> The scenario of men attacking women is _less_ frequent than men attacking men. Again, what does gender have to do with anything?


Because the assault in this case is sexual, which makes it separate from assault.


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## goodgracesbadinfluence (Feb 28, 2011)

Some of the posts in this thread are exactly why I stay FAR away from feminism....


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

android654 said:


> In what ways are women manifesting hostility toward men in the arena of sex?


Overall, dishonest manipulation tactics: lying, spreading rumors, gossip, use of illicit substances such as alcohol, etc. I have witnessed this first-hand.


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Yes, well I know you from other threads, I know you're an avid woman-hating sexist.


Duck doesn't hate women. He loves women. He hates bullshit spewing douchebags, regardless of gender.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

marked174 said:


> Oh. My bad. I wasn't referencing something you said. I was merely pointing out that the way someone chooses to interact with others often alters the outcome, which was my original premise. I was trying to supply context, not claim you said something you never said.


Ah, okay. That's why I was seeking clarification.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Overall, dishonest manipulation tactics: lying, spreading rumors, gossip, use of illicit substances such as alcohol, etc. I have witnessed this first-hand.


Lying, spreading rumors gossip? This in some way justifies promoting a sense of hostility towards a stranger who doesn't award your sexual advances? Even if it did, how are those two camps even comparable?

Use of alcohol? What do you mean exactly.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

android654 said:


> Because the assault in this case is sexual, which makes it separate from assault.


It does? How so? How is it that a woman being sexually assaulted is fundamentally different from a man being physically assaulted? (aside from the fact that the man is three times as likely to die in the attack) Moreover, do you not realize that it's the same people committing these crimes? They're not separate phenomenons.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

SuburbanLurker said:


> It does? How so? How is it that a woman being sexually assaulted is fundamentally different from a man being physically assaulted? (aside from the fact that the man is three times as likely to die in the attack) Moreover, do you not realize that it's the same people committing these crimes? They're not separate phenomenons.


If you can't tell the difference between being threatened with possible rape and beating threatened with a possible beating, then there's no use continuing this conversation. Your reasoning is clearly warped.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

android654 said:


> f you can't tell the difference between being threatened with possible rape and beating threatened with a possible beating, then there's no use continuing this conversation. Your reasoning is clearly warped.


So possible rape is worse than possible murder? Is that what you're saying? The fact that you're trying so hard to play down the significance of male on male violence is more telling of _your_ warped views than anything you've explicitly expressed.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

android654 said:


> Lying, spreading rumors gossip? This in some way justifies promoting a sense of hostility towards a stranger who doesn't award your sexual advances? Even if it did, how are those two camps even comparable?
> 
> Use of alcohol? What do you mean exactly.


I am not promoting any of this behavior. I don't know where anyone has inferred that I am.

The one story that sticks out to me is of a friend of mine who was engaged. I told this story before, but fuck it. There was this girl in our friends' group that slept around with many guys. One day, my friend threw a party, and she kept being flirty with him. He kept spurning her advances. The kept giving him drinks in between the drinks he was drinking, and eventually she succeeding in luring him to his bedroom where she attempted to have sex with him. Thank God he had the mental faculties in place to kick her out, but that alone almost ended his engagement due to his fiance's (now wife's) past. She didn't know if she could trust him. Imagine if he didn't have the faculties to have been able to kick her out?

Other instances I can't remember specifics of involved women spreading lies and deceit about a guy's girlfriend or lying to the guy. It's not necessarily always motivated by sex exclusively. Sometimes the girl really wants to be in a relationship with the guy.

I have had women hit on me for extended periods of time where I didn't want it. Fortunately, they didn't do anything nefarious, but it was nevertheless uncomfortable. I actually am very conscious of who I flirt with, who is flirting with me, and who I need to watch out for. Fortunately all of my friends are not like this, but it is always something I keep in the back of my mind. In the same vein that this isn't something that I notice girls always doing to guys, I find that the analogous situation with men being overly aggressive with women to occur with a similar frequency.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> I am not promoting any of this behavior. I don't know where anyone has inferred that I am.


I never said you were promoting anything. What you did say is that women shoulder some of the responsibility. What you have to justify this is an anecdote and childish taunts like gossip and rumors, and hold that in the same level as immediate physical intimidation involving sex. Do you not see how one is childish nonsense and the other poses a serious immediate threat?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

android654 said:


> I never said you were promoting anything. What you did say is that women shoulder some of the responsibility. What you have to justify this is an anecdote and childish taunts like gossip and rumors, and hold that in the same level as immediate physical intimidation involving sex. Do you not see how one is childish nonsense and the other poses a serious immediate threat?


I wasn't saying that women should shoulder any of the responsibility from that. Where are these inferences coming from? 

If you want to talk about how threatening an aggressive male coming onto a lone female must be, then I am having the wrong conversation. If you want to talk about what the problem is and how to fix it, what I have to say is relevant. Patriarchy is only symptomatically related for male and female perpetrators in my estimation.


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## goodgracesbadinfluence (Feb 28, 2011)

android654 said:


> I never said you were promoting anything. What you did say is that women shoulder some of the responsibility. What you have to justify this is an anecdote and childish taunts like gossip and rumors, and hold that in the same level as immediate physical intimidation involving sex. Do you not see how one is childish nonsense and the other poses a serious immediate threat?


I don't think @MegaTuxRacer was implying women are responsible for men coming onto them. I think he was just trying to show examples of how men can be harassed as well, but in different ways.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

goodgracesbadinfluence said:


> I don't think @MegaTuxRacer was implying women are responsible for men coming onto them. I think he was just trying to show examples of how men can be harassed as well, but in different ways.


He only had to point out the fact that 20% of sexual assault victims are men, even after the fact that men are far less likely to report it...that's not trivial (or are we still hung up on this gender divide thing where men being sexually assaulted by other men is a non-issue?)


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

This thread was interesting for a while, but then it started to give me a headache. So.. I don't care if what I am about to quote is from pages back. It just jumped out of me.



MegaTuxRacer said:


> Why are women more important than men in this situation? Why should the focus be on women right now.


Better question: Why shouldn't the focus be on women? 

God forbid that we ever talk about women and thins they must experience because by doing so we are neglecting men. It's not like there are men-focused conversations in the world, conversations that rarely get called out for talking about men only. If you want to talk about sexual abuse by women towards men, then go make that thread. No one will bash you for doing that. However if someone wants to do the reverse such like fourtines in this thread, don't bash her. 

Everyone is a hypocrite.


But, now. While I support and appreciate my girls and guys who are looking at for the well-being of women, I do have something to say in contrary to the linked article.

I have a friend who has known a few guys who become incredibly... infatuated (??) with her. She's pretty, sure. I actually find her alluring myself. However, I think the real appeal for these men is how guarded she is and what kind of challenge that presents. If act like you don't want to be messed with and if you act aggressive towards men, then yes that will result in provocative reactions form them. That's called reverse psychology. 

While there is definitely an unbalance of gender roles at play here, there is also simple psychology at play too. This situation,unfortunately, is quite complicated and far from black and white. I think this is half the reason this thread has become so heated. 

That and well... hell be damned if we ever discuss the dynamics between men and women because that will either make us sexist, feminist, MRA, or just some fucking asshole, which essentially impedes *ANYONE's* attempt for understanding and enlightenment, but we're all fucktards who don't realize arguments actually don't progress us as people. But, I am clearly no saint because this has evoked just as much as emotional reaction in me as it has in everyone else... oh, well. At least, I actually recognize that.

But now to expand upon my friend's story: my friend does from time to time actually act nice to guys who approach her. She's guarded, but she has one of the better hearts I have ever seen. However, that can of course only entice men more. Essentially no matter what my friend does, guys never back off. They believe if they want her, they can eventually have her. Whether if that is a arrogance problem bred into the male population or simply the individual arrogance of particular men she meets, it's definitely an issue worth dissecting.... without all this ad hominem (and more) bullshit. 


But, @bromide, I totally have to do a verbal throwout to your inititial post in this thread. Much props.


EDIT: Men are sexually harassed. Women are sexually harassed. Neither phenomena invalidates the other. Both need to be dissected, but guess what... taking time to dissect one doesn't neglect the other because everyone will eventually get their fucking turn. It's called sharing, or did you guys skip kindergarten?


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## Powder monkey (Jun 1, 2012)

Victims are victims, regardless of gender. Acting otherwise is just making them victims all over again.

This applies to women who are told 'you shouldn't have been walking alone' or to men who can't even admit it because they're supposed to be a 'man' whatever that's supposed to mean.

So yes, this is a gender issue. For both genders.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

android654 said:


> In what ways are women manifesting hostility toward men in the arena of sex?



I read a story once, of a man who was accused and convicted of rape. He spent years in prison(10 years, iirc). Then, one day, the woman finally confesses to police that the whole thing was a lie. Why would she do such a thing? He rejected her advances.

Then there's the rumor spreading, the stalking, the violent attacks against other women who actually receive a man's attention.


Do you never touch a newspaper, watch TV or bother visiting any news websites?


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## gurlcorporate (Aug 30, 2012)

fourtines said:


> I think this story perfectly illustrates the sense of entitlement some so-called "nice guys" have with women, even to the point of invading their personal space or harassing them, and then become angry with the woman for having boundaries.
> 
> This comes on the heels of a friend of mine telling me today that a man followed her into the laundry room of an apartment complex, and she had to throw two laundry baskets in front of her to get him to back off, at which point he continued to follow her, like it was an amusing game, so she left the laundry room, approached another man and stood beside him in hopes his presence would protect her from the pursuit of the first man, who persisted all the way to the end, nearly getting in her face, and smirking at her, "I just wanted to talk to you, what's the problem."
> 
> ...


maybe she provoked the guy without knowing it. when girls aren't interested in a guy, it's common for them to "accidentally" flirt with him cos they're not watching their actions.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

saintless said:


> Better question: Why shouldn't the focus be on women?


The case was made that the problem is not gender specific, therefore it should not be addressed in such terms. I think that this happened because different sides of the issue were addressed; some of them having gender specific elements and others having elements that equally apply to both genders. 

For example, the issue of men approaching women overwhelmingly more often is certainly gender specific, but the only solution to that problem that has been raised was along the lines of "men just need to leave women alone". As others have pointed out, this is hardly a solution because some women not only want to be approached but repeatedly expect such behavior. Furthermore, we have a culture (patriarchy inspired or otherwise) that propagates the notion that men must be the ones to approach women. I would think that encouraging more women to turn the tables and approach men more often would be an obvious solution, but in over 10 pages of discourse no one brought it up. If women took the lead in approaching men in our culture, the status quo would shift and fewer men would be compelled to approach women, because they would have less to prove. It would also seem intuitive to use this approach in light of the fact that it would make both men and women safer. Safer for women because they would have fewer threaten advancement situations and safer for men because they would not be stigmatized and judged as the aggressive gender. Sadly, a solution like this is not without its challenges, and would be attacked on both sides. One group would call these women sluts because their own power through scarcity would be challenged while the other group would lack the capacity of rationalizing the thought of women actually engaging men due to the prior belief that they are simply drooling man beasts who rape at every opportunity.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

goodgracesbadinfluence said:


> Some of the posts in this thread are exactly why I stay FAR away from feminism....


Lol. Me too.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I'm not a feminist, I just don't agree with women being systemically harassed, that isn't being a "radical feminist" that's called not being a dickhead.



Listen, Mr. Internet White Knight, nobody has advocated the harassment of women. If you actually read what was being written, you'd realize that.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I'm not a feminist, I just don't agree with women being systemically harassed, that isn't being a "radical feminist" that's called not being a dickhead.


Who needs science and arithmetic when you can just say things and treat them as if they are fact?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> Listen, Mr. Internet White Knight, nobody has advocated the harassment of women. If you actually read what was being written, you'd realize that.


 For the third time, rofl, Im not a feminist. I mean what you are basically saying is contrarian nonsense. Oh, well women are treated badly? WELL LOOK AT THESE (nonexistemt) FALSIFIED RAPE CHARGES!

It's not about being a 'white knight', it's about equality. I'm a socialist, what's your next step? "Oh you're just a white knight for proles or *******!" Enough. Advocating equality isn't being a white knight.

I didn't even suggested you advocated it lol. But your insistence on fighting anyone who is against it stinks either of blatant contrarianism or patriarchy. Which is it? Are you disagreeing for the sake of it or do you legitimately think you are right?


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> For the third time, rofl, Im not a feminist. I mean what you are basically saying is contrarian nonsense. Oh, well women are treated badly? WELL LOOK AT THESE (nonexisted) FALSIFIED RAPE CHARGES!
> 
> It's not about being a 'white knight', it's about equality. I'm a socialist, what's your next step? "Oh you're just a white knight *!" Enough. Advocating equality isn't being a white knight.



What?
What the fuck are you even talking about? Do you even know?


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I'm not a feminist, I just don't agree with women being systemically harassed, that isn't being a "radical feminist" that's called not being a dickhead.


As far as I'm concerned, "feminism" is synonymous with "hyperbole."

And I don't want women to be harassed by predators, either. 
Don't even play that fuckin' angle.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> What?
> What the fuck are you even talking about? Do you even know?


 Quite. Your point is so incoherent even _I_ can't understand it.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> As far as I'm concerned, "feminism" is synonymous with "hyperbole."
> 
> And I don't want women to be harassed by predators, either.
> Don't even play that fuckin' angle.


 Since you appear to believe anti-harassment is "radical feminism," what in your view is the _ordinary_ state of affairs?


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Since you appear to believe anti-harassment is "radical feminism," what in your view is the _ordinary_ state of affairs?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)




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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Since you appear to believe anti-harassment is "radical feminism," what in your view is the _ordinary_ state of affairs?


What in the hell are you talking about?

Bitching about this (especially with a condescending, alienating tone to boot) solves absolutely NOTHING. Everybody knows this is a common occurrence. You are turning yourselves into antagonists here and you don't even realize it.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Wow, Im the antagonist. That's a good one.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Wow, Im the antagonist. That's a good one.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

image macro, lol


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> Metros are notorious for strange/psychotic/abrasive people. Comes with the territory.
> If you don't want to be harassed, don't put yourself in this environment. It is that simple.


You just excluded a whole bunch of people (the victims) from public transport. Great solution!


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

I go to work for a day, and this thread goes to hell... wtf. Debating which gender is more harassed and nit-picking to which degree is fruitless. Flinging personalized insults is not only worse, but the very spirit of the problem in the OP's story. I'd like to see some posts that outline some solutions or alternatives.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

marked174 said:


> I go to work for a day, and this thread goes to hell... wtf. Debating which gender is more harassed and nit-picking to which degree is fruitless. Flinging personalized insults is not only worse, but the very spirit of the problem in the OP's story. I'd like to see some posts that outline some solutions or alternatives.




There are no solutions or alternatives that would really work.

Either stop taking public transport or travel with a friend. Those are the only alternatives.
There is no solution aside from forcefully removing those people from society. Mental illness is mental illness, you cannot simply teach certain people not to act a certain way.


Things will change, but it will take time. Possibly several more lifetimes, more if religions are allowed continued existence.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

marked174 said:


> I go to work for a day, and this thread goes to hell... wtf. Debating which gender is more harassed and nit-picking to which degree is fruitless. Flinging personalized insults is not only worse, but the very spirit of the problem in the OP's story. I'd like to see some posts that outline some solutions or alternatives.


Don't you know? Feminism is the answer... clearly. Men's problems are completely nonexistent, and only women have problems in today's society herpaderp :crazy: Yeah, woman powerrrrrrr. I have a vagina, so my problems are automatically more important than men's problems... because men don't have problems. This totally makes sense on planet derp


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## Tristan427 (Dec 9, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> There are no solutions or alternatives that would really work.
> 
> Either stop taking public transport or travel with a friend. Those are the only alternatives.
> There is no solution aside from forcefully removing those people from society. Mental illness is mental illness, you cannot simply teach certain people not to act a certain way.
> ...


Oh yes, blame religion. Makes life that much easier, to have something to fight against.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Tristan427 said:


> Oh yes, blame religion. Makes life that much easier, to have something to fight against.



Its the truth. Religion is holding society back and will continue to do so until we manage to break free of it.
However, that is not what's important here.


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## Tristan427 (Dec 9, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> Its the truth. Religion is holding society back and will continue to do so until we manage to break free of it.
> However, that is not what's important here.


Religion? Holding society back? Please. Society is what is holding society back.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Shinji Mimura said:


> *cracks knucles* Let's dissect this, shall we?
> 
> Through jealousy? Jealousy. Where in my post did I come off as jealous? And of what am I jealous? Am I jealous that girls don't just come up to me and ask what book I'm reading? Because that isn't envy; I was legitimately "just saying" that I feel this article, inadvertently, points to the stereotype that men are the initiators, the hunters, the ones who have to start the conversation and/or the romance, and that women are expected to, thus, be passive and wait for a man with some stereotyped sense of courage to come to her. No jealousy here, just reporting an oddity.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are sexist. Yes I dare, even after your little tirade. You are completely sexist to say this story is exaggerated, self-centered, and "leveraged for political gain" that she shared her experiences of being repeatedly harassed by men on public transit in one night.

This has everything to do with sex, and relationships, as you can see by the numerous males defending their right to approach women and rudely interrupt their reading time, or who plaintively state there's no other way to approach women in this social sphere we currently live in. It's about relations between humans in society.

And I'm happy for you that you think YOU don't have a gender, but that is sort of like a white person saying they don't have race; how easy for you to claim such a thing when it's really such a triviality in your life. And no matter what you declare *for yourself* (by all means you may be gender free, and that's fine) gender is still very much a social construct we here in the real world live with every day, just like race, no matter how you wish in your heart of hearts it would go away.

Yes, we neo-fems are all the same. We're all former sex workers who are willing to sleep platonically in co-ed dorms in youth hostels, and befriend old Republican men. Yes, all neo-fems are just like me, with my long hair up in a bun and my glasses, and my completely accessible and friendly sexuality which draws the line at people being douchebags.

I almost think it is because I AM SO FREE and I do co-exist so peacefully with men, that I am very clear on when sexism is actually occurring and what the real risks are.

I'm not your average upper-middle class Bryn Mawr graduate, and frankly I find your post completely self-absorbed and exaggerated.

Just like I find that other dude entitled.

You know what? You both just described the victim in the OP as what I see you as. That's weird. You're describing YOURSELF.

There are a lot of women who see the problem here, and some of the men too.

So keep crackin your knuckles, bro, and be careful to not drag them on the ground. Petty sensitivities? Nothing you just said impressed me in the slightest.

The thread is about sex (not as in gender/biological sex), because these attempts were about sexual advances. Herp derp derp.

I can just see you sitting there, thinking you posted win on the Internet just now, I can tell by the cocky way you wrote the post, and it's pretty fucking sad, bro. Oh how you wish I'd cry and see the error of my ways; you and Chief Talks-On-A-Plane over there.

What psychology does it require for men to enter a thread with pretty much the sole intention of criticizing and victim-blaming, morally redressing a victim of sexual harassment, acting like she's the perpetrator?

It's like...having such deep anger at women, that no matter what happens to a women, you'll find a way to blame her. To make her deserving, because she's rude, or self-centered, or a whore.

Do you also own a tee shirt that says "Kristen Stewart is a Trampire"?

Yes, I WILL continue to keep questioning the intentions of men who enter this thread with the sole intention of blaming or morally disapproving of the victim.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

marked174 said:


> I do not support this method of "self defense" because it is a shitty way to live. Women convincing themselves that they need to be paranoid, cruel, and dishonest in order to protect themselves is screwed up on so many levels. This kind of lifestyle is completely unacceptable, and an alternative solution needs to be implemented immediately. If an alternative solution is not presently available, then damn it we need to make one (preferably one without victimization and hatred toward others). People deserve to live their lives in a way that allows them to bring out the best in themselves; this principle is an inborn right and has nothing to do with "privilege". But ultimately each person decides how they live their life and how they see the world. Not every woman on earth chooses to see everything as a threat, just waiting to rape them; some women take ownership of their lives. In the end you must take accountability for your actions and for your perceptions, and until that principle becomes the standard, then no one will truly be safe.


Yes, that's a nice dream, but as for physical realities in the real world...you are not in touch with reality. Of course I knew that from your first point on-ward.

Perhaps you aren't "insane," but you are sheltered, overly idealistic, and self-absorbed and your world view essentially consists of moral ideals that have nothing to do with getting through the actual circumstances of life for many people; seriously, you need to be patted on the head like a child for some of the things you're saying.

You want everyone to be polite, you don't want women to defend themselves, you want no victimization, and you don't want women to act sensibly with caution.

Because let me tell you something, son, I've probably taken ownership of my life more than many people (male and female). I pride myself on my ability to manage my life, and go where I want and travel and so forth. I definitely own my life.

But I'm also not invincible, nor am I a child or a fucking retard; you can wish bad things away all day, but we still have to defend ourselves against them.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

marked174 said:


> if she did she wouldn't have dishonestly worn that ring and insult the institution of marriage which, to some people, is a sacred thing.


If you were any more self-righteous, I would expect you to do the Church Lady dance like Dana Carvey from SNL.

Do practical considerations ever enter your mind, that people do basic symbolic things to defend themselves (a ring is just a symbol, after all, in some countries they wear the ring on the opposite hand, for example or don't wear a ring at all). Symbols in and of themselves are not "sacred" but they are sign posts, social communication. (This seems like you have Si and I have Ni, that I'm even explaining this to you). 

But yeah...wow. You'll just continue to find something wrong with the OP as you're on your merry way of being Saint Raccoon. 

Thanks for the lulz, kid. It's either laugh, or hate you for what a bloated, high and mighty opinion of yourself you have, so I'm going to try my best not to hate you, since it's a waste of my time, as it won't make you any less self-righteous.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

fourtines said:


> 1. Yes, you are sexist.
> 
> 2. You are completely sexist to say this story is exaggerated, self-centered, and "leveraged for political gain" that she shared her experiences of being repeatedly harassed* by men* on public transit in one night.
> 
> ...


Numbered your points for simplicity, since that's what seems to be your depth of thinking.

1. Okay, let's play a game shall we? Let's go through YOUR post that you just left me, and let's see how many different times we can promote the idea that YOU are a sexist. I mean, even after I claim to not be a sexist, you feel content to do the immature "I know you are but what am I?" game. So, hey, I don't mind stooping to your level. Let's child-out and namecall each other, only I'll be sure to keep score.

For starters, you even calling me a sexist probably makes you a sexist. I don't think of people in terms of gender, so for you to promote the divide of people based on this? Sounds sexist to me.

fourtines is a sexist points: 1

2. Uh oh! What's this I see? You mentioned men in particular instead of just referring to people. Gotta give you a sexist point.

fourtines is a sexist points: 2

Why does it matter the gender of the people who harassed her? Are females who bother her off the hook? What if that "biker" guy was a girl, and started going ape shit as he did? All of a sudden your little "sexist" tirade falls flimsy, doesn't it?

What's that? You'd still be up in arms? You'd still take to the defense of the author? Really?

Because that isn't the view you're pushing. What you've said is that, "because gender is an unavoidable part of society, we must protect the two genders and promote equality." I agree completely, but if that's true, why is your message here that this is a male problem? Shouldn't assholes who bother people during their "reading time" be to blame, period?

Of course not, because as we all know men doesn't ever get harassed by women. That's not a thing. Sexual harassment? Applies to women only. Clearly.

3. Oh no, gotta hand you another sexist point. Once again, promoting a divide between genders.

fourtines is a sexist points: 3

Initiating conversation is all about tact. If you're going to attempt to engage somebody in conversation, as I'd mentioned earlier, it's best not to do so when they are clearly preoccupied.

One of the main issues I've been talking about for years is the issue that we as people (or as Americans, at least) treat everybody we do not know as an enemy. We raise our walls, hide in our shells, and greet each person who approaches us with a certain prejudice.

This right here I feel is the greater social issue we ought to be tackling. Now then, I realize the article illustrates a gender-based division that makes my discussion a bit more challenging since it gives a reason behind the raised walls and whatnot. Therefore, I'd rather we just move past sexism so we can start addressing our inherently socially-retarded majority.

4. 




Morgan Freeman, he's onto something, although I'm sure it must be hard to trust him since he, you know, is a man.

I'm not ignorant. I understand that race, gender, age, handicap, etc, are all alive and well in the world and in American society. I realize we can't just dream-away racism, sexism, etc. The thing is, personal accountability has ALWAYS been the real way to judge something, and bringing up race/sex/age is only done PURPOSEFULLY as a RED HERRING to try to create A PATTERN when, truly, we ought to be judging things BY BEHAVIOR not so much the SUPERFLUOUS DETAILS that are only given TO DEMONIZE an entire section of society.

If you begin to recognize that X-number of a certain crime is done by a certain minority, congrats, you are now contributing to a large group of people who will now stereotype, jokingly or not, that said race is now the poster child for that crime. Good job.

I realize gender is a bit more difficult since there are many more LEGITIMATE differences between man and woman and black and white, biologically and socially speaking.

Like I said, my only concern is that we punish people for their negative behavior alone.

Now, okay, you could make the point that, "You'll notice a trend that *insert crime* is done by males specifically against females. So, why is this? What does this pattern and evidence suggest?"

This appears to be what you're wanting to do, and if that's true, then you need a class in learning how to word your arguments appropriately, because instead of coming off as a social reformer who is out to not only suggest an issue but a solution, you're instead coming off as a radical who just gets their bullet-points from radical websites that suit your cause, and then spew them out, verbatim, without any finality to your argument.

Social reform is something that you need to think logically to be able to concoct some sort of solution. Your petty emotions, as I already called-out, have no place in the realm for serious debate. And, no, that isn't some swipe at your gender, before you go and make some radical claim that it was -_-.

5. Hey Pot. It's me, Kettle. I heard you called me black.

6. Yet again with the divide :/

fourtines is sexist points: 4

I do see the problem. Doesn't mean I can't trivialize it or play devil's advocate, nor does it mean I, a moderate on such issues, is going to be happy when a radical like you shows up and distorts an otherwise good feminist argument.

7. Miraculously, I wasn't trying to impress you.

8. Really? REALLY? Because I read the article, and never was it CONFIRMED there was ANY sexual intention. I mean, sure, you had biker guy yelling his lovely sexual commands and curses, but this was a case of GENERAL HARASSMENT, NOT SEXUAL. But, silly me, I must have forgotten that all men who approach girls that are reading are only out to trick her into sex. I apologize for my lapse in judgment.

9. At first I thought, "Why is she calling me bro? Is she just some Internet moron who surfs 4-Chan all day and memorizes Internet memes or something?" Then I realized, "Oh, wait, she's trying to be witty and make it seem like that's how I actually am. Man, she's just so clever, I could really learn a thing or two from her."

Get over yourself. If you want to champion a cause, you need to be about the facts. Have the data, have the arguments, and have the counter-points. We don't need you loud-mouthed hot-headed name-calling radicals ruining a good cause. Not like I'm any better, but then again, I'm not really attempting to spearhead any causes, except for the cause of logical debate and acknowledgement of facts, of course. Still, if you're one of these people who thinks that social changes comes through drastic measures and radical reforms, then wtf are you doing on the Internet yelling with some "cocky, knuckle-dragging bro" such as myself?

10. Oh boy. Ooooh boy. Here, let's play a new game.

Go through my posts, find ONE time I EVER said it was HER fault. Go ahead. I dare you.

You can't. Do you know why?

Because unlike the other posters here (notice how I didn't say male? This is me not contributing to your purposeful division), I actually never said it was her fault.

I didn't defend the guys. I didn't say, "Oh, those poor guys. All they wanted was a talk."
I didn't yell at her. I didn't say, "Oh, that selfish wench. She should've just talked. Jeez Louise."

No. I trivialized this, yes. Criticized? Not necessarily. Made fun of? Eh...maybe.

But I never said any of this was HER fault.

So, yeah, instead of just being the sexist that you are

-oh, right, sexist points: 5-

in presuming that all males who have said something negative about this MUST have the SAME thoughts, how about we refrain from blanket statements, hmm? How about you try to call me out on MY statements, and not the previous statements of others, WHO HAVE NO TIES TO ME OR MY ARGUMENT?

Then again, I guess I shouldn't argue with you. You've already proven to me, such as with your lovely thread about hot chicks liking guys for their personality (a thread based off a MISUNDERSTANDING), that all you ever do is jump to conclusions and you put your heart before your head every step of the way. Your arguments are just the outpourings of your heart, and that is why your claims are unsubstantiated and why you're just so much about the surface of an issue and never about the deep underlyings you so clearly make no attempt to comprehend.

Great interview. Aces.


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