# The guilt trips, THEY'RE ALL WRONG.



## DJArendee (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm not sure which problem to tackle first, so this might sound rather ADHD as I'm writing what crosses my mind in its natural order.

My older brother (INTJ) has told me numerous times I'm an ungrateful child. My ESTJ father has told me numerous times that I need to say thank you and show my appreciation to my mother more often. My mother (INTJ) has once stated that she has "given up trying to control me."

First of all, I understand she is my mother, but what right does she have in trying to control me in the first place? My older brother always tries to guilt trip me, telling me I never take his advice (advice that I never ask for, mind you). He always tells me he's trying to help me. Here is an example dialogue between he and I.

bro: why do you want to fly jets?
me: because it looks fun as hell.
bro: but you don't seem very excited about them... you see, when I was your age I wanted to fly jets too. I knew EVERYTHING about every jet there was, I had jet models all around my room, I had posters of jets on the walls...
me: I don't get giddy when I think about jets, I get giddy when I think about flying.
bro: but you see that's the thing... *you need to be excited about them.*

And then he begins a big guilt trip as to why I need to be excited over them just like he was (before he was rejected from an ROTC scholarship).

On to my mom, one day I started talking about a girl I met over the summer. Mom knows I have a tendency to talk about Myers briggs a lot; she doesn't want to hear it anymore because I "talk about it too much". So I speak ONE SENTENCE about this girl like "she seems like she has daddy issues," my mother will immediately cut me off and say, "It sounds like you spent too much time analyzing her. did you ask her out? did you go on a date yet? Tell me something interesting." At this point I just stop talking and simmer in my utter hatred for this woman. This hatred usually dies down to a simple pessimistic approach the next day, not so much the hatred it was before, until the NEXT episode occurred. 

I go out and buy brownies. The only one who was going to eat the brownies was ME. No one else. So I cook the brownies, then I whip out a bowl, and I grab a fork. I scoop out the brownies from the tray with the fork, disregarding any square shape they may have once taken on because lets face it, its not the shape of the brownies that matters, its the fact that they're in your stomach. So because I'm using a fork, this is of course wrong, and my mother says "use a knife." I say politely, "no thanks, I don't need one." "You need to use a knife," "No I don't." At this point my dad walks over and hands me a knife and says, "use a knife." I use the knife and cut the brownies. I put the brownies in the bowl. Then I place ice cream in the bowl (fucking delicious), then I commence eating.
"You're having both!?" my mom is incredulous.
"yes"

I'm losing my mind. Not to mention, my younger INTP brother has been talking a lot to my mother and brother. They explain to him why I'm such a terrible son, and then he tells me what they've said, and then he starts explaining to me how I need to change my life.

His advice is completely different from theirs, and after I explain to him why I'm not the ungrateful son everyone wants him to believe I am, he starts giving me advice, but its because I asked for his advice.

"You need to just separate from them for a very long time."
"Exactly." I agree wholheartedly.
"I could talk to them for you, but you need to be ready to accept the blame for ALL of your problems. everything will be YOUR fault if you mess up."
"YES!" I erupted with excitement.

At this point his ENTJ shadow has rescinded and he ceased berrating my character. He didn't really talk to my parents like he said, but he mentioned something else. Anyway I'm fed up with my family for a good while. At least I understand why my dad does what he does, and he actually understands me now. But now I need to understand INTJ's, because they're the last bastion of strife occupying my life that I need to overcome. I know INTJ's who are WAY cooler than these 2, so don't get all huffy with me quite yet. I'm just trying to understand what the hell their (my mom and older brothers') problems are.

Some of their arguments are legitimate, but they have said things that basically say, "You're a terrible person because you're not accepting my GODSENT advice."


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## teabiscits (Jun 4, 2009)

i have the same problem with my intj sister. she's ten years younger than me but you'd swear she was the older one. she does have legitimate complaints about me yes (forgetting to clean up after myself being the main one) but she does the same shit herself and no one berates her. she doesn't like it when i tell her to go fuck herself and actually physically attacked me once or twice. she gets really annoyed with me too when she thinks i'm over analysing a relationship issue or if i'm depressed over something. i think she thinks i'm weak, i'm not, i just have a hard time being in solitary confinement, it's a punishment for a reason, IT'S DEPRESSING! she can grasp the fact that it's lousy on a dog being cooped up but then when i get depressed for being cooped up? i'm weak and self pitying? AARRGGHHHH!!!!!!

i don't know why i'm writing this i have no solution for you though i learned in college that every family needs a scapegoat. i'm the scapegoat in my family by a long mile, something goes missing?, i must have taken it, there are dirty dishes in the sink? i must have left them there. i even got blamed for something once when i wasn't even in the country. maybe you have been awarded the scapegoat role in your family?


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm baffled at such INTJ behavior (I've been on an INTJ board for over a year now). It sounds like your mother is ISTJ not INTJ. I mean, no analyzing? No giving you control over your situations and treating you like an adult at your age? Telling you to use a knife because it's the wrong way to do it without it? Sounds like Si not Ni.

Does your mother get paranoid about future possibilities when she's under stress? Or does she tend to not trust her environment in the present when she's stressed?

Though I can see your brother as INTJ. They do get excited about facts and figures behind what they're interested in.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Oh my God. You are singing my song! I just recently moved back to my home town. But I promise you it won't be here for long. _It's been hell._ I'm surrounded by judgers. My mom is off her rocker with fucking rules that make absolutely NO sense. She just wants control. And it's stupid control. _Just_ like that stupid knife thing.

In my brain I would think, "who the fuck cares?" But my mom would think it's some sort of stab at society and the values she was raised with. Also, it would be another reason for her to give a disapproving sigh that means "why did I raise such a failure who can't follow any rules."

Honestly, I'm also dealing with her racist mouth. God, bizarre and close minded judgment of others coupled with the dumbest (I can control you) rules leaves me baffled as to how I ever survived my childhood. It's pretty bad when the only way you are able to handle your mother's mouth is to visualize her in her coffin and how much you'll miss her when she dies. Seriously! This is the only way I get passed some of the shit she says! It's fucked up and bad, so in order to calm myself I have to think "some day I'm going to miss her.". Sad, sad, sad. But at least it's fully confirmed why once upon a time when I turned 18 I got the hell out of dodge.

My mom, her boyfriend and my sisters are all judgers. My dad is the only "P". ESTP to be exact. His mind is not in a box. I was complaining so bad about my mom and family last night to my ENFP friend. He told me that my mom is just getting old and now she is like a child. She has to have this stupid rules and tell me how I need to do things in the same way a threatened child would when they get scared about sharing their space or toys.

The sad thing is, I've never jelled with any members of my family. They've been so much easier to love from a distance. 

I've always "lived on the edge" according to them. But I am also the _only_ college grad in the family and I have lived many places and had many experiences. I think the reason they are so narrow minded is because they lack these experiences and can only see things from their own myopic perspective. 

I push the evelope and the rules, and I still get shit done. I think that frightens them. I've actually been very successful in my life. It just has to be _away_ from these negative people.

Babe DO NOT let your family make you feel like a failure in anyway. Probably your very existence challenges all that they know. I am sure somewhere deep inside of them, they may be so proud that you are you. But they are having a very hard time respecting your individuality. I know what that is like. Everything I do is about respecting mine and someone else's individuality. I could give a rats ass about sucking things up "for the group". Maybe if they respected my individuality first, I can agree to go along with their stupid rules for a moment.

Dear, I'm so sorry. I really needed to blog about this myself. I don't want to pull focus. I just can relate so much right now and I am very frustrated. 

Thank you so much for sharing this. Just accept my long rant as validation. It cracked me up too. My mom has also told me finally that she "doesn't believe in that MBTI stuff" so she no longer wants to hear about. I see you are getting the same thing. See? You weren't afraid to forge through new frontier to gain a better understanding of things. Do you see how they may see that as a challenge or even a threat to all they know and what makes them feel safe in the world.

And yes, the guilt tripping is _very_ wrong. It's stupid too. I don't need to hear all the shit why something needs to be the way it is because how it affects them blah blah. Just say the shit you wanna say already and spare me the manipulative guilt inducing bull crap that goes with it. Damn, nothing annoys me more. I can understand a person conveying their needs directly, but to use guilt manipulation on top of it, makes me want to do NOTHING for them. It makes me want to close my ears and walk away.

Dear Sir, you are going to LOVE it when you move away for good. You are going to blossom and surround yourself around the people that will always remind you of how awesome and courageous you really are. My best to you.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

Your life sucks. Glad you are at least here, where there are sane people who won't try to force you to use a knife for your brownies. *rolls eyes at your petty, controlling family*


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## DJArendee (Nov 27, 2009)

@ Gauntlet... Definitely an INTJ. She's an artist with obvious weak Se as seen by her taste for grandma moses' art, very cynical about the future, slightly rebellious in her own ways. I believe INTJ's opinions need to be challenged or else their Ni can start to run away from them. I'm baffled by their behavior too because I have plenty of INTJ friends at school... but maybe they'd only make good friends for me... Perhaps it has to do with age or something?

@pinkrasputin... good to hear you know what I'm talking about. Its bullshit, as is much of life. Its strange because I'd like to be on comfortable terms with some of these folk, but it just seems impossibly to talk to them anymore without me keeping my guard up, constantly scanning every remark they say to see if I need to defend myself or not.


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

Cynical about future in what way? If she's see the big picture and events leading up to it, I'd let the notion of ISTJ be. But if it's uncontrolled paranoia then that's probably an ISTJ. Inferior Ne grasps at all the negative possiblities of the future. An inferior Se will distrust their present environment when under stress. Though older INTJs are known to be quite cynical in general if they haven't developed.

An INTJ would also prefer analyzing the situation with you about the girl instead of asking for more interesting facts (details) about her. With the knife thing I could see both doing that, but more so ISTJ since she's the "parent". Parents have "authority" over their offspring and ISTJs will stick to such beliefs throughout life quite readily. An INTJ would probably push the child to be more independent. ISTJs also don't like change or doing things differently and may project their ways on to others, especially if they're closed minded.

Also I know SJ artists. One of my best friends (ISFJ) is one and fairly good at it. Older SJs are going to appreciate older art usually (not modern like cubism), and not care for much emotional ones if they are Ts (tried and true as well as technical skills is what counts to them).

But I do agree if she is INTJ and much older she may be set in her ways. Considering the lack of freedom women had not too long ago, she may finally be expressing her true self but hasn't developed it properly because of situational circumstances.

Just throwing some thoughts out there though. Mainly because I have an ISTJ mother and she sounds quite similar to your mother.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

what everyone else said. your mom sounds like an ISTJ.

She is fixated on tradition and has a one track mind. It's not a matter of denying other forms of thinking presented to her, she doesn't even realize that they are there.

She lives by the rule of "that's just how things are done" and obeys this rule of hers even if she has to incorporate ignorance of reality to do so.

One good thing to point out is that your mom rejects idealist thinking because she is INTIMIDATED by it. Her motivation is fear and nothing else. She probably does not even realize it.
People do not lash out at other people unless they are afraid of them or what they stand for in some aspect.

She is obsessed with proving herself right and is completely shut off to outside opinions even if they are obviously for the better. You cannot talk logically to someone with this self-obsessed stance.

This is of course, unhealthy ISTJ behavior. Not all ISTJ's act this way. But if she was an INTJ she would most have definitely at least considered the other possibilities of various situations even if she stilled denied them.


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## DJArendee (Nov 27, 2009)

The fact that myers briggs can be feared does sound like she could be an ISTJ as another ISTJ I know treats me the same way and doesn't want me to use it, but I view that simply as an Si Ni combined with Te thing.

Some more details on her. my mind is very heavily set on INTJ, but I will consider ISTJ: her favorite hobbies are painting, building dollhouses, and talking to herself. She used to almost be a hippy in her clothing choice. She's a know-it-all and speaks in absolutes. She's the worst listener in the world, decides she knows exactly where the conversation is going, interrupts, and then starts talking about whatever she's talking about. She loves my favorite artists and the techno I listen to. She'll hear 2 facts and come up with the most ludicrous explanation (IE: I was telling her this girl has very closed gestures, holds her arms across her chest etc, mother immediately responded "sounds like she was raped." I see this epiphany as a very clear example of Ni usage).

SJ's are more in the moment than NJ's are. I've talked to ISTJ's, I work with tons of them. you know exactly what pisses them off or what they're allied to, and if you insult that, they'll snap back at you almost immediately. INTJ's will not snap back at you for disagreeing with them, and neither does she. It takes a much longer process and the anger builds over time. Usually a 3 hours conversation/argument occurres. It takes much longer to change their minds.

ISTJ's have very loyal words. Nothing I've ever heard her say has clued any sort of loyalty to anything.

Though, I understand how my blog could portray her as ISTJ. The words "you need to use a knife" seem like blind authority to the rules. She is not that way at all, I saw it as an attempt at control based on her body language and the context at the time. She once admitted to my younger brother, "I've given up trying to control him."

Yes I am a stubborn ISTP and my theories on the subject will probably not change simply because the number of facts lean toward INTJ than ISTJ. Don't take it personally, I've met bad apple ISTP's who I'd rather not associate myself with.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Don't forget, mother's often project. I'm a mom so I know. :wink:

If your mom is truly an INTJ than the comment about you over-analyzing the girl before making a move could have seemed quite random to you. But it wasn't to her. This is because she was seeing her flaws as a person and knows what she may have needed to hear at some point in _her_ life. INTJs are known for "lurking" a bit before approaching. They analyze quite a bit and may take a while. So she may be thinking you are guilty of doing the same. She is not seeing where you and her may be different. 

My mom will do something like this to me and I'll wonder who the hell she is actually talking to because it's not me. For instance she may say something like "See. That's why you just really can't assume you really _know_ a person. There may be something else going on in their mind..." And I'm like, "DUH!" _She_ is the one who has had to learn that in her life and I think because she is barely learning that, she assumes I have to as well. Or maybe she just likes to hear herself talk. I swear to God...the talking....


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

ISTJ don't necessarily have to be loyal. Think of ISTJ in this terms: They have morals and values based off of childhood teachings and ideals of what is right and wrong. If an ISTJ is taught to be open minded, a hippie or fight authority they will do such since they were taught such is "right". Also ISTJs are only loyal to their preferred authority and whom they are close to (very hard to get close, especially if they're unhealthy). No loyality for those that aren't close.

My ISTJ mom defers only to the authority that she believes is authoritive. Authority that matches her childhood authoritive figures. And the listening thing... a big issue between my mother and I. I made a thread in the ISTJ forum asking for some help on how to deal with my mother yesterday actually. I did talk about her lack of listening skills there and "her way or the highway" rethoric.

Nor does my mother anger easily... on the contrary she loves, LOVES getting a reaction out of me (since I'm not that expressive). She'll get giddy if my tea kettle explodes but rarely any signs of anger or raising her voice.

I wonder how many hours of my life I've wasted just trying to get her to stop and listen to what I was trying to say. I try just walking away now, but I dislike knowing another argument is waiting to happen. It's like beating a dead horse, but when your thought process and conclusions get attacked... ba humbug, I'll be standing there defending myself to the end.

Anyways, does any of that sound familiar?


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

Your mom sounds ISTJ. Lecturing you about "using a fork" to eat your brownies and proper manners is SO ISTJ.


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## DJArendee (Nov 27, 2009)

It sounds to me like ya'll based ISTJ completely off the fork incident. Mind you, manners were not the issue, it was about her being in control. She could care less about manners, that's what my ESTJ dad worries about.

Would an ISTJ ever drive over a median to get out of a backed up parking lot? Plus she also says she's an INTJ.


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

No no, I wasn't referring to the manners at all but the control issue. INTJs are less likely wanting to "control" others. That is what my first comment was about anyways, control.

Yes, yes they would. Most of the time no, but if an ISTJ gets off their rocker they do some werid things. But anyways, obviously you know your mother better then I. I was just pointing out by some of her behaviors ISTJ sounds like a reasonable option to reconsider.

Yes, I have come back after a period of absence. Lol. *rises from dead* Wooo...


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