# Traits which are over-attributed to 6s



## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

kaleidoscope said:


> I have believed in the past that erratic fluctuation between types was a type Six indicator, simply because it represented a lack of solid sense of inner support which can lead to latching onto an identity or a label before rejecting it. It's been difficult to unlearn that association and look for more indicators, because it is an idea so ingrained in the culture here.





LeoCat said:


> I was taught that too by reading so much on here. However I know personally for myself, sometimes we are so traumatized "fucked up" caked on layers .. that it might take getting to a place more peaceful and less emotionally intrusive to even begin to see what we are inside. Our real selves can be buried so far not even your best friend would know her/him.
> 
> I wish that everyone would help pull each other out of that trauma grave. What an amazing place this would be if they did.


I learned very similar things just from being online in general. From lurking around here in specific (I referred to my biggest gripe above). And I fell into saying very similar things on another forum. I'm sorry I did, and yes, it _was_ hard to unlearn. I regret to think whose personal growth I may have inhibited through my words and arguments. 

It was one of the things that inspired me to do more reading...and I'm glad I did. If anyone takes away one thing from this thread, it should be that--always do your homework, on the types and on yourself. Never assume anything of others. It's _your_ journey.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

kaleidoscope said:


> I have believed in the past that erratic fluctuation between types was a type Six indicator, simply because it represented a lack of solid sense of inner support which can lead to latching onto an identity or a label before rejecting it. It's been difficult to unlearn that association and look for more indicators, because it is an idea so ingrained in the culture here.


I am going to address your point, and make some general comments.

I don't think most people who know what they are doing would type someone at 6 or 9 only because of typing fluctuations alone. In fact, I don't personally recall even you isolating just the typing fluctuations and typing someone at 6 on that basis. If you think you may have internalized the mindset, then I am happy to know you've been unlearning that. Yes, that stereotype is pervasive, but most intelligent members do better than singling out one variable and concluding on the basis of that. The most contradictory (wildly so) self-reporting is also seen in 6s, not exclusively but it is a pattern. I've already taken into account external factors for members with complicated pasts like memory issues and so on. So even this is not something I, or most people I have seen, bring up as a conclusive determinant of 6ness. 

And, there is a strong pattern in 6s and 9s of trying on various types and having a lot of doubt/haziness surrounding the core. There is a certain pattern of authority issues that come up in typing threads with 6s. We've seen these rise and go kaput over the years. I am not including cases where a person has legit been mistreated unprovoked and is reacting to the disrespect. Long back when there was boatloads of 6 drama, which even comes up now, though at a much lower frequency, there was talk of all these horrible 'witch hunting' assholes. Now, most members seen as 'confrontative' :laughing: don't even type people anymore fmp. And yet, the complaints persist.

Partly, it's a forum culture issue, but partly it's also people having some sort of knee jerk reaction to even suggestions of Type 6. You can't clap with one hand. This problem goes both ways, with typers and typees, regardless of their own typing. It's foolish either way. Negative stereotypes of the type abound, and these are often peddled by typees themselves. Lastly, trauma is not the norm either in the general population or on the forum population. Type is not about trauma. "Core Fears" are not trauma conditioned. We are born with our Types in place, and trauma is an additional factor in some cases that makes not only self-typing difficult but also complicates typing others. 

I've argued with close friends here for typing people at 6 because some types of trauma reactions can appear typically 6. When there's trauma involved, I really step back, and listen very closely, and take several relevant variables into account. While trauma is not intrinsically linked to type, having experienced it complicates the process. It has for me, as well. And, people should be given even more space when this is a factor.
_________

However ineffectually, I've had a few people try and goad me for not 'concluding' on 7 or 3, during a year or more where I was dealing with extremely traumatic experiences, including deaths in my family and the collapse of a long term relationship under extenuating circumstances. I did not receive the respect that I have extended to people in similar or hell far less damning situations. It's petty and imbecilic. Besides, I've always said as long as I was learning from 3 and 7, my aims -- improved self-awareness not clinging to a number-- were being met, and I would arrive at it when it was time for it. I haven't typed at anything (8 over 5 years back and 3 close to four years back) rashly or lightly, nor have I jumped between types at random. I've known I am an Id type forever. I have my own process, and I am very relaxed about it. And, there are far more pressing priorities in life XD. Then there's the multiple anxiety disorders that have impacted every aspect of my life. So, not everything can be watered down to Type.

@_Rinnay_, I have an extremely abusive past, and I have 3 anxiety disorders including long standing and severe PTSD. I have extremely rarely mentioned these disorders on the forum or even to people I know from here with whom I've developed close friendships off the forum. I'll comment further on pathological anxiety and type. Low Self-esteem, eating disorders, self-consciousness are all things 7 can experience, even if it hasn't been my own experience. I was telling @_Lunar Light_ and @_Animal_ how irritating it is when this pseudo 8ish invulnerability is attached to 7s. I am not concerned about the superficial lulzy descriptions, in any kind of personal way. But, I do get irritated when people say things like 7s or Id types in general can't be anxious or depressed (this is a big one for 7s) or have other type of struggles with anxiety and shame. Robin Williams hello? 
I was reading Brene Brown yesterday, and I downloaded a whole worksheet on shame that I will work on soon. 

Types need to be humanized, and the way to do that is to not hold any of them above the fray of human vulnerabilities.


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## cinnabun (Apr 11, 2011)

Vajra said:


> Type is not about trauma. "Core Fears" are not trauma conditioned. We are born with our Types in place, and trauma is an additional factor in some cases that makes not only self-typing difficult but also complicates typing others.
> 
> I've argued with close friends here for typing people at 6 because some types of trauma reactions can appear typically 6. When there's trauma involved, I really step back, and listen very closely, and take several relevant variables into account. While trauma is not intrinsically linked to type, having experienced it complicates the process. It has for me, as well. And, people should be given even more space when this is a factor.














Vajra said:


> @_Rinnay_, I have an extremely abusive past, and I have 3 anxiety disorders including long standing and severe PTSD. I have extremely rarely mentioned these disorders on the forum or even to people I know from here with whom I've developed close friendships off the forum.


I'm really sorry to hear that:sad:.












Vajra said:


> Low Self-esteem, eating disorders, self-consciousness are all things 7 can experience, even if it hasn't been my own experience. I was telling @_Lunar Light_ and @_Animal_ how irritating it is when this pseudo 8ish invulnerability is attached to 7s. I am not concerned about the superficial lulzy descriptions, in any kind of personal way. But, I do get irritated when people say things like 7s or Id types in general can't be anxious or depressed (this is a big one for 7s) or have other type of struggles with anxiety and shame. I was reading Brene Brown yesterday, and I downloaded a whole worksheet on shame that I will work on soon.


OMFG, yes! This so much! _This_ is a big reason why I was considering myself to be a core 6 a while ago. I'm quite open about things (I don't really know when to shut up lol xD) so I've spoken about my anxiety disorder and my depression with quite a few people, and some of them were telling me how it's "unusual for a 7 to be as anxious as this", or, "You have low self-esteem? That's weird...7's are so confident....you sound like a 6." It pissed me off so much, because they were defining my character based on _one _tiny little variable that wasn't even type related.

People need to get this through their heads: type 7's _can_ suffer from anxiety or depression (or both if you're like me). Just because we're referred to as the "optimistic" type doesn't mean we can't have shit going on underneath the surface. I know that 7's have this ego, where they feel entitled to things, and I definitely have that. However, at the same time, I also have low self-esteem...but that doesn't make sense to people, so they just say I'm a 6 and wash their hands with me, as if "Ok that's sorted out, you're welcome ." Enneagram is so fucking complex and dark, you can't just go about typing people willy nilly: you really need to know them, explore them, understand them, and feel them in order to_ really_ know who they are. 

Also, another thing that's annoying:
Person: Explain to me how you're 7/ENFP.
Me: To put it simply: I did a lot of research on the type, read many articles about them, and each one I clicked with it instantly. It's like my soul connects with what's written in front of me. It's a beautiful moment of realisation.
Person: Yeah...but how? Tell me.
Me: Um...well ok *lists a few things that I identity with 7/ENFP as I can't be bothered going into detail as I know who I am*
Person: OMG THAT'S NOT ENOUGH, YOU'RE TOTALLY MISTYPED.

Like what even the fuck.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Rinnay_
In most cases, depression and anxiety are co-morbid. Depression is co-morbid with thyroid disease and a whole bunch of other conditions. Most people in the Enneagram movement, including that so called 'psychiatrist', more like quack Naranjo, don't really understand mental illness, nor is it within the scope of something like a psychospiritual personality typing thingy. And yet, random armchair psychobabble spewing fools online try to pathologize people or pretend to engage complex analyses of the kind re: anxiety, mental illness in general, they have neither theoretical nor experiential understanding to undertake. 

Low-Self esteem is often seen in people who suffer from depression. '7s are always confident. 7s have NO shame. 7s don't get depressed. .' -- all of this dumb shit is touted by people who need a type to idealize and look up to. People who have even basic knowledge of human psychology know better than to say that. Reframing pain doesn't imply unawareness of pain. The "anxiety" associated with head types in the Enneagram was explained in one of my posts I'll quote here.



> The existential anxiety described by the article and experienced by 6s is different from general head center anxiety which is shared by the three head types. This has to do with security and inner knowing for the 3 types, as they have a difficult time with quieting their minds, and confident knowledge of how life is to be navigated (inner guidance) comes from a still mind. More specifically, 5s are anxious about the outer world and their ability to cope with it. They seek security through detachment, mastery (or gaining competence through learning) and minimization of needs. The pervasive, permanent fear/heightened awareness of unpredictability or uncertainty (and hence the core motivation to seek clarity and security through internal and external support structures/beliefs etc.), that does not come from a specific source, is what the 6 fixation is about. This is not shared by the other head types. So, 7s don't have the 6's existential anxiety, but being a head type, they also deal with fear ---fear of their inner world, a fear of facing an internal reality that can be painful and contain anxiety resulting from (actual/perceived) deprivation/entrapment. So, they seek security by keeping their minds stimulated, occupied with anticipating enjoyable possibilities and not just living in their head but actively living these out as much as possible.


This is not the same as pathological anxiety. 6 descriptions are notorious for conflating the two. An anxiety disorder is a serious mental illness. It's not some trifling feature in a typing bucket list. I don't think head types are necessarily more susceptible to anxiety disorders, particularly those precipitated by trauma. It's short sighted and inane to pretend as though absolutely any type is immune to struggles with pathological anxiety or shame based emotional grievances or whatever. I don't feel much shame on a day to day basis, but when I am present and aware, I become more aware of how it affects my life. I am still as confident as I've always been. I am just more connected with my own humanity now. Another issue with anxiety disorders is that they are an invisible condition. In my own case, unless I tell you I have one, you wouldn't know. I keep tight rein over my professional life, and my own vulnerability is mostly unconscious, a blindspot so to speak. I don't have a visibly anxious personality, as some others suffering from pathological anxiety tend to. This has made some people comment on how my anxiety isn't visible because I am an ID type. Well fuck, an ego bigger than the universe aside XD, it's more like because I have forbearance, self-knowledge and mastery over myself that comes from thriving amidst the kind of destruction that I don't wish on most. I am the master of showing people that which I want them to see, nothing more or less. 

More importantly, it also has to do with the specific forms of anxiety disorders I have. One of them ..came over me like a starless silent ravenous..violent.. night...it had me before I knew it. I had never before felt such a violent helpless torment in my eventful life. The only thing that came so close to breaking me, however temporarily, was mental illness, not violent deaths of people I loved, not ruin, not lost love, nothing. The only person who noticed any kind of change in me was my very perceptive partner. And, the only other person knows what was brewing in that diseased grotesque stunning mind is @_Animal_. The thing with mental illness is that sharing about it with morons is not a productive use of your time. Ignorant irrational tools who live their lives on forums, completely caught up in ultimately irrelevant things like Typology, will not understand your struggles and will be quick to presume things, trivialize and reduce them to type, often the wrong one at that.

I learnt my lesson on this years ago on this place. Particularly in a trauma or mental illness context, It's a much better idea to discuss type with mature, bright people who are more interested in listening to you and understanding you, first as an individual, than a number. Type is not the totality of who you are anyway. You are more than 'type'. It's not worth it to open yourself up to anyone who comes along with some lame question or another directed more at refocusing the conversation on sharing their half baked ideas than listening to what you have to say. If people ask for feedback on type, then they need to be open to discussion and dissent. If someone isn't interested in talking about their type, I don't see a point to asking them about it, especially as a way of getting shit off my chest about their typing.

Anyway yeah, I take type at face value unless something off stands out. I wouldn't single out things like depression, self-esteem issues and anxiety to exclude a type. People who do this just flag themselves as a mix of insecure and daft.
_____

more 6 over attributions:-

1. freedom fighter typings XD
2. countering fear or anxiety, circumstantially any type can counter fear or anxiety. it's not the same as fear being the core passion. rh have talked about 8 exemplifying the cp approach to life, for example.
3. adventure sports
4. martial arts and self-defense -- no, people learn martial arts for various reasons. not every martial artist is an 'insecure' 6. they can be a perfectly secure, healthy and wise individual of any type, including and not limited to 6.
5. body building, fitness, athletics etc. XD - @_Swordsman of Mana_ and I discussed this recently. 
6. 'defiance'
7. being seen as 'intimidating' ; if so, a lot of 8s, 1s, 3s, 7w8s and fixers would all be CP 6s.


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## cinnabun (Apr 11, 2011)

@Vajra


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Vajra said:


> 1. freedom fighter typings XD


mmhmm. far more likely to be 7 or 8 



> 4. martial arts and self-defense -- no, people learn martial arts for various reasons. not every martial artist is an 'insecure' 6. they can be a perfectly secure, healthy and wise individual of any type, including and not limited to 6.


honestly, I see this as kind of a "guy" thing in general. obviously, I'm not saying there aren't reasons why women would want to do martial arts, rather that the feeling of "I need be able to defend myself and physically hold my own" is a very male instinct in general, not something all that related to 6




> 6. 'defiance'


take note @Mandraque =P



> 7. being seen as 'intimidating' ; if so, a lot of 8s, 1s, 3s, 7w8s and fixers would all be CP 6s.


I generally find the opposite. ie, "you _don't_ have an intimidating presence, therefore you are a 6". additionally, I would add non-Sp 2s and Sexual 4s to the list


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

We had a guy who got a nice banstick meeting a while back, who more or less ran an agenda on changing the meaning and interpretation of cognitive functions and type 8 so it would fit that person's behavior/cognition. If you are highly prone to "fellating yourself" perhaps do not type others or yourself. You will end up mistyped yourself, mistyping others and in a nice little oral-circle, with no personal growth, no self-improvement and a lot of time wasted. 

The reason I pretty much never type people, despite having an idea of the type of just about everyone, is that it pretty much always screws things up. If you're right, you've robbed the person of their journey to find their type, if you're wrong, you've done the same, and in addition you've potentially made them conform to a type that isn't theirs. 

There is a reason why Nardi doesn't agree 100% with Myers-Briggs, and that Augusta has a different view than Hunzinger, and that Leonore Thompson disagrees with Naomi QUenk, who thinks, John Bebee is a douche. Why Naranjo wrote a blueprint, that was interpreted by Riso-Hudson, and imagined in a hippyesque drug phase by Maitri, and rewritten by Beatrice Chestnut and Helen Palmer. 

That's because typing isn't mathematics, its astrology and I'm sure everyone in this thread is happy to tell me why my Ti in the second house of Venus, is being influenced by the Suns position relative to Jupiters Fe, is bothering The North Star (Who is actually a type 5) and causing the big dipper, to spill his shadow and integrate into the Leo's hornevian triad. 

However, some of you seem to think that we're dealing with Science... not art, with mathematics, not literary interpretation, with chemistry, not 4th century BC cave painting evaluation, and with accounting... not marketing. 

Nobody is ever going to be like "I'm sorry maam, we diagnosed your son as an ESFJ" or "Sir, we are glad to tell you that your daughter is a 3, I'm sure she will be very successful".

Typing is on the same level as scientology auditing, and I'm sure some of you are already planning on having Naranjo's "Character and neurosis" written on titanium tablets and stored in a bunker in the desert for the day when the Lord Xinu comes back, but before you start jumping on Oprah's couch please take a break. 

Typing tends to turn into stereotyping (which is when you have 2 people screaming the type you think you are at you, rather than one) and it works off this internal image someone creates of a type, like "all sixes have anxiety issues" or "You are only a 1 if you're currently leading a literal witch hunt" or "You're only a 5 if you're currently hiding in a Tibetan monastery" or you're only an ENTP if you build death rays and playing Iron Man. 

I'm not saying that some of you haven't done a great job at learning to cherry-pick quotes from books nobody else cares enough to read, and then do a great job at copy-paste or doing gish-gallops, hell, some of you may be great typers in a while. However, I can do calculus, and I don't think I should be asked to calculate a nuclear payload. I've read the DSM-V from cover to cover, not sure if I should be confident at applying for that job at Arkham Asylum, where I'll inevitably either go nuts or get mutated and end up being chased down by batman. 

What I'm saying is, typology is like a box of chocolates, you're always going to end up getting the kind you most want in that moment, and take up 3 hours of my time telling me about it afterwards.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Scelerat_ 

The Enneagram is just a useful heuristic tool, and that too for people who know of its limitations and apply it with full knowledge of the same . It's not a science. Hell, it's not even a proto-science. It is hilarious that people see astrology and 'astrobiology' as proto-science. Naranjo can't even make up his mind as to the origin of the Enneagram. Ichazo claims it was divinely ordained. Right. Naranjo says he didn't spend much time studying "Type" from Ichazo, but 'received' it through 'automatic writing', which of course was then correlated with DSM shit. the DSM manual, on the basis of which CN was written in the 70s, is now outdated by several decades. There have been several scathing critiques of the shortcomings of the DSM by clinical psychologists and psychiatrists. Back to Enneagram theorists, no original research has been undertaken since CN, with a few exceptions re: RH have revised the Object Relations theory's application to the Enneagram, added some stuff to their Instinctual Variants descriptions (that are btw mainly accessible to people who take their 1000 dollar workshop), and there's Mario Sikora who, at the very least, isn't a Naranjo sycophant and is very open to having his ideas critiqued. I've talked to him at length, and I am interested in following his work further. I was recently telling him how disappointing it is that Palmer, Maitri and now Chestnut write in Naranjo's tradition to the point where their works read as Naranjo for dummies. Palmer's book was written in the 80s. Maitri's were written no later than the early 2000s. Chestnut's most recent worked presented nothing new. I am not even touching on the shortcomings that come to light when its subjected to the scientific method, even keeping its psych. applications in mind. 

Then, people expect the scientific community to take the Enneagram seriously? So called theorists are still matching people's facial features with monkeys and typing them by their 'vibe', the arch of their eyebrows and which fashion labels they wear. The Enneagram can be used as a prompt for self-reflection, and there's a lot you can learn about yourself using it as one among numerous, far superior tools, for furthering self-knowledge. You don't even need to slap on a type to benefit from it if you see it as a composite of growth strategies rather than a way of searching for an identity and then clinging to it, going so far as to think that type captures the totality of who you are. I was talking about personality vs. temperament on FB, and if I am able to look it up, I'll share some critiques here later. As I was saying, while there is the initial stage of ego-over-identification, most people don't get past it. In other words, a lot of people lack the maturity and the intellectual acuity to the make the most of whatever the Enneagram does offer. Those who do will learn one way or another. 

I've always said that the Enneagram has NO scientific validity, and I don't expect this to change. What people can do is approach it scientifically, which is to say rationally, critically, logically and systematically. One also has to take the approach of epistemic pluralism in evaluating this particular mental model, with its limitations in mind. See it for the man made personality typing system it is. Sure, it can be interpreted with a scientifically informed spirituality (and here the term doesn't have to imply supernatural or divine origin necessarily), but there is no reason why people should resort to sheer idiocy in applying it to themselves and others and go around uncritically buying the divine origin hogwash. Even the idea of "essence" can be interpreted in secular ways. One just has to be smart, flexible, and willing to see the pitfalls and uses with detachment and neutrality.

___
@_Paradigm_ 

We talked about it a long time back. Another 6 over-attribution is "Scientific" thinking or rational/scientific skepticism (evaluating whether claims are supported empirically and have reproducibility). This is not the same as the Enneagram reactive strategy of questioning intent and tuning in to what lies beyond the surface, unconsciously and consciously. 

A lot of formal academic writing, especially in the sciences, is what is stereotyped as 6ish- '"evidence of x or y/being skeptical of corroborating material etc. Even legalistic writing is very similar in this regard. Surely, there are plenty of non 6/6 fixed scientists, lawyers, legislative writers etc.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Vajra said:


> @_Scelerat_
> 
> The Enneagram is just a useful heuristic tool, and that too for people who know of its limitations and apply it with full knowledge of the same . It's not a science. Hell, it's not even a proto-science. It is hilarious that people see astrology and 'astrobiology' as proto-science. Naranjo can't even make up his mind as to the origin of the Enneagram. Ichazo claims it was divinely ordained. Right. Naranjo says he didn't spend much time studying "Type" from Ichazo, but 'received' it through 'automatic writing', which of course was then correlated with DSM shit. the DSM manual, on the basis of which CN was written in the 70s, is now outdated by several decades. There have been several scathing critiques of the shortcomings of the DSM by clinical psychologists and psychiatrists. Back to Enneagram theorists, no original research has been undertaken since CN, with a few exceptions re: RH have revised the Object Relations theory's application to the Enneagram, added some stuff to their Instinctual Variants descriptions (that are btw mainly accessible to people who take their 1000 dollar workshop), and there's Mario Sikora who, at the very least, isn't a Naranjo sycophant and is very open to having his ideas critiqued. I've talked to him at length, and I am interested in following his work further. I was recently telling him how disappointing it is that Palmer, Maitri and now Chestnut write in Naranjo's tradition to the point where their works read as Naranjo for dummies. Palmer's book was written in the 80s. Maitri's were written no later than the early 2000s. Chestnut's most recent worked presented nothing new. I am not even touching on the shortcomings that come to light when its subjected to the scientific method, even keeping its psych. applications in mind.
> 
> ...


A lot of people claim to be approaching it "scientifically" but are very prone to various forms of cognitive bias. Who is to say that some aren't prone to viewing people they type through the lens of their own type. Then there is confirmation bias, subjective bias, I actually have a book of 77 biases people are prone to, and without rigorous documentation of the process you use to type in writing, a process outlined with steps that can be replicated every time and strong control of your own mind, it becomes near impossible to approach it in the way you outline. Furthermore, with no "peer review" of sorts according to a common model, its just making things up depending on your day to day mood.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Scelerat said:


> A lot of people claim to be approaching it "scientifically" but are very prone to various forms of cognitive bias. Who is to say that some aren't prone to viewing people they type through the lens of their own type. Then there is confirmation bias, subjective bias, I actually have a book of 77 biases people are prone to, and without rigorous documentation of the process you use to type in writing, a process outlined with steps that can be replicated every time and strong control of your own mind, it becomes near impossible to approach it in the way you outline. Furthermore, with no "peer review" of sorts according to a common model, its just making things up depending on your day to day mood.


In fact, I recall telling you on a thread where you yourself had made the argument that what was observed (by a person presuming to type another) was superior to the person's own self-reporting, that observer's have their own biases, which also need to be accounted for. 

There are all kinds of biases operating with typers and typees. I haven't outlined any kind of step by step typing process above. My post to you was not primarily about typing people but approaching the "study" of the Enneagram in a rational, logical and critical way, the bogus claims about divinity, as well as expressing agreement about the poor quality of Enneagram research and publishing today. 

With the typing deal, a rational critical approach would also extend to self-typing and typing others. Absolute typing accuracy is not a realistic goal, but a reasonable degree of accuracy can be achieved. One also has to keep in mind that some ways of going about it (open honest dialogue, discussing personal history and different interpretations of the available theory, critiques included) are superior, rationally speaking, to others (typing avatars, 'vibes', facial features, style of clothing and other such trivialities). It's not the scientific method come to life, and I've said that many times. I've just critiqued the claims made about the Enneagram's scientific validity. It has ways to go before I'd consider it even a proto -science. I am aware of the kind of rigorous research and testing it would take to come up with and replicate a scientifically validated and peer reviewed "method" of typing that results in accurate typing (coming to a standard description of type would be challenge in itself, particularly when applying it on a large scale, keeping generational, cultural and familial influences in mind) in any kind of significant way in the larger population. This doesn't negate the potential of whatever we can achieve through an interactive process, approached critically by both parties, where biases on both ends are kept in mind. I am confident that, while I have my own biases as does everyone else, I remain aware of them and am willing to correct myself where necessary in a way that doesn't amount to making things up based on my mood. Assuming that's a generalization you've made about people typing others and themselves, I would still say that people can do better than that when they have a good grasp of the theory and are honest with themselves over time. "Over time" is key. You are presenting a false dichotomy between complete arbitrariness (mood fluctuations) and a scientifically replicable and peer reviewed typing "method". 

Typing patterns do show up over the course of time, and many have been typed correctly by people, and for now, I am only including cases where both typee and typer were in agreement about the typing, so lack of current scientific modeling and replication aside, typing correctly is by no means impossible or implausible. It is complicated, nuanced (you had said you weren't one for nuance, but that's what you're taking into account by reminding me of the number of biases operating, and I appreciate that) and, at times, fairly time consuming. That's just fine too, as long as people are engaging in self-reflection. The introspection is more important than slapping on a number, which is what I've said in the post you addressed.


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## Pelopra (May 21, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> most of the self-aware 6s I know identify as anxious, but until then, it's kind of like the proverbial fish in water[\quote]
> 
> True
> 
> ...


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

some more
1) Power tripping. this is also a common behavior in 8s, Sexual 4s, Social 2s and Social 3s. even 1s enjoy a good power trip now and then, albeit they are less likely to look for it
2) Low Self Esteem. also common in 4s and 9s and even 3s
3) Bigotry. if anything, I correlate this most with 1 fixers.


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## o0india0o (Mar 17, 2015)

RinnayDelRey said:


> OMFG, yes! This so much! _This_ is a big reason why I was considering myself to be a core 6 a while ago. I'm quite open about things (I don't really know when to shut up lol xD) so I've spoken about my anxiety disorder and my depression with quite a few people, and some of them were telling me how it's "unusual for a 7 to be as anxious as this", or, "You have low self-esteem? That's weird...7's are so confident....you sound like a 6." It pissed me off so much, because they were defining my character based on _one _tiny little variable that wasn't even type related.
> 
> People need to get this through their heads: type 7's _can_ suffer from anxiety or depression (or both if you're like me). Just because we're referred to as the "optimistic" type doesn't mean we can't have shit going on underneath the surface. I know that 7's have this ego, where they feel entitled to things, and I definitely have that. However, at the same time, I also have low self-esteem...but that doesn't make sense to people, so they just say I'm a 6 and wash their hands with me, as if "Ok that's sorted out, you're welcome ." Enneagram is so fucking complex and dark, you can't just go about typing people willy nilly: you really need to know them, explore them, understand them, and feel them in order to_ really_ know who they are.


YES!

Thank You!

I was struggling with typing myself as a possible counter-phobic type 6 off and on (though it never stuck;; just moments of uncertainty) for some of the EXACT same reasons you mentioned!

I struggle with low self-esteem and anxiety issues (and back when I was a child in an abusive home: depression). People don't believe me, because I _look_ happy or confident. Behind closed doors, I struggle with questioning everything I said during the conversation, in social settings. I'm hella anxious! It's not that I put on a mask. . .it's something I've been dancing around (trying to figure out). I guess I just *want* to be happy in any given moment, so it's like I'm trying to *_will_* it to happen (even if the inside does not match the outside). Like when I wear shorts on a cold early-Spring day, because I freaking *want* it to be warmer. It doesn't make sense. . .but it's how I am.

I had trauma in my childhood, but even my type 7w6 friends who had quite normal childhoods, most of them struggle with fairly intense anxiety. & a few of them even struggled with depression when they were younger.

I keep chalking a lot of the confusion up to the fact that I think many people see type 7's as a whole, as type 7w8. I attribute this confusion to the fact that I think most books and educational Enneagram material of type 7's are swayed more towards a type 7w8 description. I have noticed that this occurs with most types (for example: I think many of the type 9 descriptions sound much, much, more like the 9w1). I think there is a bit of confusion of what is "core" type seven, as some of the 8-winger attributes have been tossed into this category. I also think 7w6 are less discussed and explored (many assume that we're 6w7 and don't understand the subtle differences).

SO glad another type 7 mentioned this though. Happy to know I'm not alone. :tongue:


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## o0india0o (Mar 17, 2015)

Scelerat said:


> We had a guy who got a nice banstick meeting a while back, who more or less ran an agenda on changing the meaning and interpretation of cognitive functions and type 8 so it would fit that person's behavior/cognition. If you are highly prone to "fellating yourself" perhaps do not type others or yourself. You will end up mistyped yourself, mistyping others and in a nice little oral-circle, with no personal growth, no self-improvement and a lot of time wasted.
> 
> The reason I pretty much never type people, despite having an idea of the type of just about everyone, is that it pretty much always screws things up. If you're right, you've robbed the person of their journey to find their type, if you're wrong, you've done the same, and in addition you've potentially made them conform to a type that isn't theirs.
> 
> ...


Well, that was excessive. :laughing:


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## o0india0o (Mar 17, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *
> 3) Reactive Tendencies: 4s and, surprisingly, 7s can be extremely reactive at times, as can stressed out 9s. additionally, most people are reactive every once in awhile under stress.
> *


*

So true! I always say that type 7's should be honorary members of the reactive harmonic grouping. Everything in our environment usually gets immediate reactions and responses out of us (both positive and negative)!



Swordsman of Mana said:



5) Focus on Security: all Self Preservation types focus on security to some extent. so do most 5s and 8s in general. in fact, so does anyone who has a shred of common sense and wants to do more than being a starving artist or liberal arts major. it's called not being a dumbass.

Click to expand...

"It's called not being a dumb ass." Ha Ha Ha Ha! :laughing:

That gave me a good laugh. I have thought that on multiple occasions when I read or think about my Self-Preservation instinct (I always assume it's simply because I'm biased).

My husband and I are both SP-doms, and even though focusing on security is a Self-Preservation instinct thing, it is so heavily associated with type 6's -that depending on the test- my husband (type 9w8) will actually score as a type 6! Type 9 is literally the only type he related to, so we know he's not a type 6;; though he does have type 6 second in his tritype, and I do have a 6-wing (but I still believe much of his and my own security focus is due to SP-instinct).



Swordsman of Mana said:



6) Loyalty: frankly, the loyalty of most 6s is extremely conditional and extremely over attributed. that's not to say some individual 6s can't be loyal, but in general, So 2s, So 8s, 1s and mature 7s are a lot more loyal than 6s. 6's loyalty stems more from feeling protected and/or supported, and many are quick to turn on you the moment you fall from that role or the tables turn and you need them to support you.

Click to expand...

I have noticed this, in the sense that I think the word "loyalty" being applied to type 6 does need some fine print (or some details clarified). I agree, that in my experience, type 6 loyalty can be extremely fickle and conditional. When they are loyal, they are fiercely loyal. But I do find that type 6's are quick to "turn on you" if you make them feel slightly concerned (which is really easy to do). I don't think it's that type 6's are not loyal, it's just a very particular "flavor" of loyalty. I'd say they are similarly likely to "go down with the ship" like a type 8, but only if they are currently loyal to the person, group, or organization. I also find that for true, grounded loyalty, type 6's take the longest to submit and give this type of loyalty (but once they do - - it's for life).*


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Kipposhi said:


> I learned very similar things just from being online in general. From lurking around here in specific (I referred to my biggest gripe above). And I fell into saying very similar things on another forum. I'm sorry I did, and yes, it _was_ hard to unlearn. I regret to think whose personal growth I may have inhibited through my words and arguments.
> 
> It was one of the things that inspired me to do more reading...and I'm glad I did. If anyone takes away one thing from this thread, it should be that--always do your homework, on the types and on yourself. Never assume anything of others. It's _your_ journey.


This. I've been told I can't be a 1 because I doubt myself, but reading actual books on enneagram, the descriptions of healthier levels of 1 fit me perfectly. I don't doubt myself naturally, but I've learned to stop and assess whether or not I'm being too quick to believe/assume/assert something, to make sure I don't let myself get caught up in my ego and fall short of my standards as a result. Because that's happened a lot and it annoys me and I find it unacceptable, so I've put a lot of energy into controlling that inclination. And it's less doubt than being unsure I'm seeing the full picture. But because I doubt, I must be a 6.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

*A sense of inferiority:* also common in 4s and even 3s. can also be present in 5s and, to a lesser extent, 7w6.
*angry outbursts:* any type can outburst when pushed far enough, but these can also be common in Sx 4, Sx 2 and, to some degree, in 8s.
*being a provocative dick:* not everyone who is provocative or an asshole is doing so out of insecurity. other reasons include sadism, boredom or intimidation for strategic reasons
*counterphobia:* while counterphobia is especially apparent in the Sexual 6, it can also be seen in many 7s, 8s and 2s (especially Sexual 2, who tends to have a daredevil streak and can look similar to cp6 of 7w8)


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