# Yea, let's do this again (with talks about loops allowed) PS. bring your party hat!



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Yea, I've kinda decided that I'm gonna give up my annoyance for loops and just go and see if I got any and if so, what my type really is.

You can see this as out of respect to you @LeaT if you want to (it actually is out of respect to you).
I got no real quarrel with you. (even if I sometimes pretend I do)

I will start a bit like this and if you want me to do questionnaires, then I can do some.
I love questionnaires and tests! 

Now, I read this article: http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html
And I will pick out the once I can relate to and give a comment as to why I do.



> *ENTP/ESFJ: Ne/Fe or Fe/Ne--Narcissistic Personality Disorder*. This type often behaves impulsively and manipulatively, needing constant approval and admiration from others, running around investing in new thing after new thing but never developing the self-confidence of a strong subjective perspective. Fe used negatively may use its awareness of the cultural standards of others to intentionally offend or upset them, in order to service Ne's curiosity about the patterns in their responses. If Ti/Si were working properly, it would give the user a balancing sense of personal, subjective importance and free him of his dependence upon the adulation and unconditional acceptance of others. (Horrible example: Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.)


Now, I consider this one part because I can see some things I can agree with and out of respect to LeaT.
Now, I am only impulsive when it comes to money @[email protected]
I don't know if that counts but it's the only thing I'm really impulsive about.

I'm sometimes manipulative (which can be seen in all the times I've pissed off LeaT), but it's not something that makes me feel good. It's more of a defense mechanism. It's like "you are messing with me, so I shall destroy you" kinda thing (it can get really harsh since I usually hold a lot of information in my head that I use against people).

Now, that I don't have a strong subjective perspective is what I believe could have to do with me starting to relax. I've been through a lot in my life (more than most will find out) and I haven't trusted anyone except myself. I've seen friends as short-term products that you throw away when you don't need them anymore (and I still kinda have that)

But again, I don't insult people intentionally unless they have triggered my defense mechanism. I'm really rational about using it and I can control it by will (by that I mean that I can over-react or just ignore it if I want).

But I do love to hear people either come with a good argument or crumble under my comments @[email protected]
If you can survive my large comments and do a good come-back, you've earned my friendship.
If you get crushed, I see you as someone I can kick around when bored. You can't actually leave this position, even if I start to like you I will kick you around at random times (has happened to one of my friends, so I know that it doesn't change).



> *INFP/ISTJ: Fi/Si or Si/Fi--Avoidant Personality Disorder*. Often scarred by some intensely negative past experience with opening up too many of their private emotions, this type compulsively avoids social situations and interaction with others. They are fiercely sensitive and may exaggerate or misconstrue perceived negative emotional intent in the words or actions of others. They will sometimes project their negative feelings onto others (Fi), as Si tells them that if _I_ were to behave this way, _I_ would have to be very upset, so anyone who behaves that way must also be. These types often have a chronic problem with trusting the intentions or motivations of others, refusing to share private information with even their closest friends and family. They are so deeply sensitive that they refuse to risk being hurt by attempting deep connections with others--you'll see this a lot in ISTJs with Asperger's. If Ne/Te were doing its job, these types would maintain a heathy grip on the importance of letting go of the past and trying something new in the name of accomplishing a greater goal, but some of these remain total recluses for most (if not all) of their lives.


This is sadly very true, I have some deep scars from my past.
I've opened up to people a lot of times and it has only ended with me getting my hands smacked. 3 examples (they all have to do with girls):
The first was someone who I started to know really well (or at least thought I did) back when I was with the scouts and sometimes went out on camps. I met a really nice girl there who I could really open up to and it felt like she did the same thing, but when the camp was over and I made a move, she closed the doors.

The second time was close to the first time and it was about a girl that I had liked for about 3,5 years and I decided to finally take a chance and open up, but instead I left with PTSD.

The third time was with my ex.
Since she's on this forum I won't go deeper into the subject to give her more to use, but short story is that I opened up and she took a chunk of me with her.

To go on to the other parts.
I've never liked social gatherings and stuff because they are a tactical disadvantage.
I'm used to the fact that I'm being looked down upon and I get uncomfortable the moment that a group of people between the age of 7-30 pass beside me and I prefer to stay at least 20 meters away.
It is because I'm used to the fact that people are drawn to me like a predator to a prey.
I've had too many times in my life when people start to converge on my location when I walk too close to them.
I also prefer to stay away from people because so many people start to dislike me or hate me the more they are exposed to me, so I don't want them to be exposed to me, so I won't feel hated when I'm there.

My mother usually tells me that I see bullies and enemies wherever I go and that I always assume that people hate me.

I've many times started fights with my mother because I believe she's not honest when she says something positive. I believe that if she says something nice, she's either lying or she wants something.

and speaking of my family I remembered 2 more stories of why I don't trust people.

First was back when I hated my cousin and I once stated that you don't hate people as much when they're not there (referring to my cousin) and my mother went straight to the phone and called his mother to tell her what I said and she got angry when I asked her why she did it since I assume that some things are just for the people in the conversation and others do not need to know, especially not the person you're talking about.

The second time was when I started to open up about my PTSD.
The first time I was laughed at about it was when I tried to explain it to my parents, in which they just responded with laughs and switching subject as fast as they could.
The second time was when we were at one of my uncles' places and I stated that in which I got the response "have you been in a war or something that I haven't been aware of?" followed by A LOT of laughing.
I never spoke to my family about my PTSD after that.

This should cover it for the moment at least.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Based on that post, I'd say Fi-dom. How well can you relate to the following description?

Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.

The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> Based on that post, I'd say Fi-dom. How well can you relate to the following description?
> 
> Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.


Yes, I agree with this.
Also, when I was younger my ESFP sister once asked me what I thought of a song and I responded that it was "good" in turn she replied quite offended that it wasn't just "good", but sad.
Also, I've kinda had issues sometimes to react to what people are saying/doing and understanding when they want help or when they want to deal with things on their own (which tends to cause fights sometimes).



> The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.


I've always considered myself warm, but when I look at pictures of myself I see that I often have a strained smile or a neutral smile. (there's barely any photos of me)
I also think that it's kinda easy for me to seem cold and detached, even if I don't often see a reason to do so.
I'm also quite paranoid about people.
I offended an ENFP because she would come up to me and my INTP friend and ask for a cigarette, so I assumed that every time she walked towards us she was gonna ask for one (she later told me that she didn't know any other way to find a reason to talk to my INTP friend).
Also, it's something I usually do. I can see a pattern in the smallest things and believe that the person has a negative intent or just tries to use me or a close friend.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Yes, I agree with this.
> Also, when I was younger my ESFP sister once asked me what I thought of a song and I responded that it was "good" in turn she replied quite offended that it wasn't just "good", but sad.
> Also, I've kinda had issues sometimes to react to what people are saying/doing and understanding when they want help or when they want to deal with things on their own (which tends to cause fights sometimes).
> 
> ...


So would you feel comfortable saying that you're an Fi-dom? If so, I'd go with INFP.

From other interactions with you, I'd settled on Si, Ne, Fi, and Te. But now I'm pretty sure that my order was wrong. I saw a lot of Te and thought that it was your preferred judging function. 

Taking this post into account, I think that I've actually been seeing your inferior function. Do you think that you may be a bit unhealthy? That would probably make your inferior function quite noticeable.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> So would you feel comfortable saying that you're an Fi-dom? If so, I'd go with INFP.
> 
> From other interactions with you, I'd settled on Si, Ne, Fi, and Te. But now I'm pretty sure that my order was wrong. I saw a lot of Te and thought that it was your preferred judging function.
> 
> Taking this post into account, I think that I've actually been seeing your inferior function. Do you think that you may be a bit unhealthy? That would probably make your inferior function quite noticeable.


I left an environment that was hazardous to my mental health about a month ago, tho I'm still in contact with my mother who is one of the sources of me feeling bad.

Generally I'd say that this is the time you'd see my inferior the best since I have finally been released and I'm now growing into the person I want to be.

I am really unhealthy at this moment, but I'm becoming better.

Tho this might be too early in this discussion to be sure of me being INFP.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I left an environment that was hazardous to my mental health about a month ago, tho I'm still in contact with my mother who is one of the sources of me feeling bad.
> 
> Generally I'd say that this is the time you'd see my inferior the best since I have finally been released and I'm now growing into the person I want to be.
> 
> ...


I'm very glad that you extracted yourself from a bad situation and are in the process of healing. 

Since I've already submitted my vote, I don't think that I'll be of much use now. But, in case it's helpful, here are the other type descriptions: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/111230-summary-jungs-type-descriptions.html. Reading them should prove easier than wading through _PT_, so I hope that they help.

Best of luck! :happy:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> I'm very glad that you extracted yourself from a bad situation and are in the process of healing.
> 
> Since I've already submitted my vote, I don't think that I'll be of much use now. But, in case it's helpful, here are the other type descriptions: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/111230-summary-jungs-type-descriptions.html. Reading them should prove easier than wading through _PT_, so I hope that they help.
> 
> Best of luck! :happy:


Thank you, while we are at the subject.

I'm unable to do anything without it being filtered and changed based on what I expect will bring the optimal result (no matter what I want out of what I do).
That's one of the problems I've had when being typed, I can sense my own bias, but I can't do anything about it. I just knows what it is doing.
My brain works like that and it stays a lot of steps ahead.
I almost manically try to trick people into believing that my bias is "the" truth.

I've also never "been in love" since I got my PTSD.
It has become completely objective to me and I no longer fall prey for emotions.
I always put pros and cons against each other now.

There's for example this nice girl who really likes me and it's kinda cute, but I've rationally friend-zoned her (which I also laugh about in my own mind) because she doesn't meet the requirements.

I'm also able to almost completely control my ability feel love to people.
I've tried a few times to focus on specific people who I had no interest in and after a while I did for the reasons I rationally made up and then I was able to partially remove that feeling (it's harder to remove something than to create something).


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator: wow! Weren't you INFJ --> ENFJ --> INFP? 

You have probably been around these forums thinking about this stuff longer than I have, so you may well have already considered this. 

But anyway, I'm feeling like a lot of the information there could be very enneagram-related. That said, enneagram can (in my view) interplay in subtle ways with your type and cognitive functions. 

My Fi is probably pretty intense for an INFJ, and it would seem, for similar reasons yours might be. It has become something of a survival mechanism to use Fi well. 

I think we all use the functions for different reasons, and I can easily see an intelligent person who has felt the need to somehow "crank up the intensity" beginning to use Fi more out of defense, when they're really at home with Si, Ni, and more passive functions. 

The way you describe your relationship to people and the level of control you have for your feelings for them is really similar to me. It's also colored by negative experiences I've had in the past. 

I wonder if your ability to manipulate is not inferior Fe or shadow Fe so much as a very skilled Fe-user who has gone sour. When I decided on INFJ for myself, I had trouble with Fe, but I've decided on an interpretation of the typing system by which Fe would be a big part of me. 

I hope you continue to heal! 

Are you enneagram 6 by any chance? Sounds more likely than 8, and even 5, but not sure.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> @_Acerbusvenator_: wow! Weren't you INFJ --> ENFJ --> INFP?
> 
> You have probably been around these forums thinking about this stuff longer than I have, so you may well have already considered this.
> 
> ...


Interesting, tho I believe using your shadow function is like asking darkness to be lighter 
By that I don't think a Fe user can grasp what Fi really is, since it's another orientation of Fe, so it's seen by Fe as alike, but weird.

Anyways, yea I'm enneagram 6w5.
Says so in my signature :happy: 

Oh and yea, I've thought I've been just about every type at some point.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh, so you don't think we use all 8 functions, only the 4 inherent to type? 

Oh and odd, I can't see the enneagram type yet, but anyway I guess that makes sense, 6w5.

The way I came to think of it is that inherently, there are many levels to each decision and conclusion. The same decision can use Fe-reasoning, but the decision to use that Fe-reasoning for said objective could have used Fi-reasoning. And it could work in the opposite direction, too. 

Much as there are wings in enneagram, supporting some major type, I like to think the functions do support each other, and the core type gets at the best combination of both in constituents and order. 

I think that my way of looking at the functions is as very detached things that are just on paper, which is why I rely on involving the core motivations as separate from whether one prefers using Fe or Fi or whatever. The idea that an Fe-user is somehow _inherently an Fe-use_ is not my way of using the typing system somehow, and why? Because the typing system is something we talk about on paper, so-to-speak. I can't decide if someone's _core_ is Fe or not, more like I can decide "ah, this employed Fe-reasoning to reach a conclusion!" but acknowledging that behind that, there could have been more to it.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> Oh, so you don't think we use all 8 functions, only the 4 inherent to type?
> 
> Oh and odd, I can't see the enneagram type yet, but anyway I guess that makes sense, 6w5.
> 
> ...


Tho Fi + Ne could look like Fe and Fe + Ni could look like Fi.
Fi makes the values and Ne makes the width.
Fe makes the values and Ni concentrates it.

Also, the difference between an extroverted and introverted function is that the introverted is based on internal ideas and extroverted functions work externally.

They could very well look the same way when writing a text.
But they are usually separated when it comes to actions.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator:

I think that's true, Fe + Ni definitely can look like Fi. Nonetheless, it's distinguished because what Fi uses to reason is distinct from what Fe uses. 
_However_, I still allow for the possibility that an Ni + Fe user could subsequently use Fi. Why? Even if Fe + Ni can look like Fi, ultimately Fi is a reasoning function and Ni is not. Once you catch someone reasoning based on internal ideals or principles to a decision or conclusion, that's left the realm of Fe and Ni. 

Basically, I do agree that ultimately Fe-users are pretty much Fe-users, and one can't really confuse an INFP with INFJ. Nonetheless, I think simply because one winds up having to reason in fashions that are simply not what Fi + Ne + Si + Te deals with, so there will be support from the others in the process. Which is the core thought process used (or core 4) gets one closest to the type. 

It's similarly tough to decide enneagram types, because what is really just one type integrating to another? What "core" means is a personal thing, to an extent.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

So let's say someone decides to say something to please someone based on having observed them and figured out this would please them. Are they using Fe? Well maybe they're really using Fi, because the way they drew the link between what they observed and what they concluded was based on the fact that pleasing X sort of person is who they are, and/or based on a strong internal feeling of what they feel would please others, based on what they see as pleasing them. Like "loyalty leads to a feeling of security, and I'm meant to promote these because I'm X Y or Z sort of person" ... all sorts of such things could play in. 

Depending on how many of the above are true, maybe it was just Fe. Or maybe just Fi. However, if almost all of the above were processes the user employed, there could be shadows of lots of things helping each of these guys out.

I'm honestly allowing for all this out of giving you credit, because you seem pretty thoughtful, and I could see there being some layers to your approaches.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> So let's say someone decides to say something to please someone based on having observed them and figured out this would please them. Are they using Fe? Well maybe they're really using Fi, because the way they drew the link between what they observed and what they concluded was based on the fact that pleasing X sort of person is who they are, and/or based on a strong internal feeling of what they feel would please others, based on what they see as pleasing them. Like "loyalty leads to a feeling of security, and I'm meant to promote these because I'm X Y or Z sort of person" ... all sorts of such things could play in.
> 
> Depending on how many of the above are true, maybe it was just Fe. Or maybe just Fi. However, if almost all of the above were processes the user employed, there could be shadows of lots of things helping each of these guys out.
> 
> I'm honestly allowing for all this out of giving you credit, because you seem pretty thoughtful, and I could see there being some layers to your approaches.


What you wrote could be true, but the sense of duty to self could be Si + Fe.


> "loyalty leads to a feeling of security, and *I'm meant to promote these* because I'm X Y or Z sort of person"


I've always seen FiNe as more controlling like


> I like person A, so I will become friends with her closest friend (B) to get close to A


Like there's always a reason for everything it does.
That way you got an exit strategy if something would go wrong.

Tho that might be my e6w5 way of thinking.

It is however how I would get close to someone.
Approaching someone myself/directly is weird and uncomfortable for me.



> I'm honestly allowing for all this out of giving you credit, because you seem pretty thoughtful, and I could see there being some layers to your approaches.


Thank you :happy:


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Sure, the loyalty and security could be just acting in an Si-sense, that's true. Just depends a lot based on what is leading, I guess. The combo of Si and Fi in the same person can also lead to it, I think. As much as Si is "tertiary" in INFP, I have as yet found too many examples of the tertiary being around as developed as the auxiliary to not suspect it could be pretty strongly expressed.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Like there's always a reason for everything it does.
> That way you got an exit strategy if something would go wrong.
> 
> Tho that might be my e6w5 way of thinking.
> ...




Yeah, I like it. Your 6w5 can influence your fixations and preferences for reasoning. That sounds like a good instance of using Ne. 

The controlling part can indeed be reminiscent of Fi, but the exit strategy part seems to be a bit of your 6 creeping in.

How about this: why did you leave INFJ as an option? What didn't fit about it?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> Yeah, I like it. Your 6w5 can influence your fixations and preferences for reasoning. That sounds like a good instance of using Ne.
> 
> The controlling part can indeed be reminiscent of Fi, but the exit strategy part seems to be a bit of your 6 creeping in.
> 
> How about this: why did you leave INFJ as an option? What didn't fit about it?


I've always had an issue with Se.
Not just that I got a hate/love relationship, but rather that I try to go as far away from anything fast paced as possible.
Also, I'm a bit too self serving to actually use Fe.
I'm really good at ideas, which became apparent a while back when we were asked in school to edit a song and add certain specific words and I was quite good at making a context out of random words.
I also keep referring to what is known to me and it's sort of what I lean back on.

Other than that, I just read the loop stuff and agreed a lot with the INFP one and so I made this thread.

Ni doms also don't like to think of their past, but I rather like to refer back to it.
I don't know how many times I've pointed out stuff like how long I've been bullied and such.
Also, my quarrel seems to be with Se rather than Si.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_Acerbusvenator_: 



> Also, I'm a bit too self serving to actually use Fe.


To serve yourself, do you often consider the dynamic between you and others and make complex decisions? Depending on how that goes, it could still be Fe of course. A self-centered use of it, but a self-centered use that directly manipulates the environment.

Se is something I enjoy in great moderation, but is also a weakness of mine. I'm stronger at Si, as well. 

You very well could be INFP. If you've already decided on it, I defer and say you probably know better (even if INFP isn't it, you're more likely to fix the type than I am). 

Do you feel you fit with the Te-inferior response better than the Se-inferior response?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> @_Acerbusvenator_:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My view has always been that people only do what will serve themselves in the end.

I had decided for a T inferior earlier, so a switch between Ti inferior and Te inferior isn't that big of a change.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Back at it again, Acer?  Just teasing. Fair enough.

An Fe user could certainly use others to serve herself. I'm thinking of one blaring example right now: someone I knew very closely for a very long time. Fe is not synonymous with "altruistic", it just indicates that a person's feeling focus is external rather than internal. Whether they use that for good or ill is entirely up to them.

Whatever type you are, you have fairly high Ne, not Ni: ENTP, ENFP, INTP, or INFP. And I agree that you have Si, not Se, which reinforces my conviction. So, those are the possibilities as I see them.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I just noticed now today when we were asked to write 5 numbers or dates/years that are important for who we are today. I got a hard time remembering things. I got an easier time to remember negative memories tho.

Also, my dreams are so strong that I sometimes can't see the difference between dreams and actual memories.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

2 new things.

1. I tend to enter systems and then break them down by being an inconsistency (which is most likely why my INTP friend no longer believes in MBTI).
It isn't something conscious, but I almost always tend to end in a position where the validity of the system ends up being questioned.
So, if you wonder why I keep making these threads and questioning my type, it isn't a conscious decision or rational that I might have the wrong type, I just get that feeling and then it starts to grow until it's too big to hold inside and then I make one of these threads.
My friend used me as an example as for why MBTI is wrong since I've been typed with just about all types.
My first type was ISTP.

2. I have an awful memory for systems and I can't really have one either.
For those of you who are annoyed at how I go about typing people (like @_LeaT_), then it is because I simply can't remember how my system was made up.
For every new person I type I make a new system with the information I currently got.
This is probably why I don't have any political opinions. I simply can't remember what my political opinion was.
One day I might complain at the poor people without education and the next I feel like writing a hate mail to all the rich people who just sit on their money and I can't understand how I once was annoyed at the sad little poor people.

EDIT: I was also reminded on PerN that my focus is external and on people. Not so much on just myseslf.
also, according to: http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/extraversion-or-introversion.asp
Then I'm an extrovert out of the fact that I'm not really seen as reflective. I'm more of an "act first, think later" kind of person. Even if I got issues doing things without getting the full picture.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> So, if you wonder why I keep making these threads and questioning my type, it isn't a conscious decision or rational that I might have the wrong type, I just get that feeling and then it starts to grow until it's too big to hold inside and then I make one of these threads.


Did you find that you mistyped as INFP? It has inferior T, it doesn't seem to have qualms with Si. 

My take so far on the MBTI system is that sometimes, it's not clear that someone will _only_ use four functions prominently, more like the way those functions stack up give them a flavor that is unmistakable at least to them, even if not to the outside. That said, taking this unmistakable flavor and correctly matching it is hard. 

For instance, in my case, it's pretty clear I have no qualms with Si, but I don't think one absolutely has to have a qualm with Si if an INFJ. The level to which I think MBTI holds in a huge number of cases is where we acknowledge we may not have problems with the other functions, but so that our dominant, middle two, and inferior unmistakably _are_ particularly good at describing what both the master functions and the less masterful but still important inferior are. My comfort level would be where the inferior should clearly be a resort in many instances of breakdown/stress, and it should definitely be weaker than the other three. 

I personally see more interest in using Ne in you than in me, even though my Ne is strongly present. 

The issue is I like ENFP and ENTP for you more than INFP and definitely INTP. But you have a good relationship with Si? Even I got INFP as a result once, but I hesitate greatly to say Fi-dominance for most people, having seen what it really looks like.

Perhaps you have developed your inferior function well, but you still have a strong level of discomfort, particularly given you fixate on the negative aspects of your past. A user of Si in a more healthy sense might use Si in a more everyday sense.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Also, regarding what ltldslwmn (and I, earlier in the thread) have said about Fe being something pretty neutral in terms of whether or not you use it to care for others or for yourself, here's how I think of it: I've known Fi-users who do use others, but frankly they just sort of do it and expect it to happen. And eventually, the others might just pick up on it and leave. 

An unhealthy Fe-user might use others by ensuring they don't leave through careful handling. Think of the popular girls in high school. Stereotype goes, they could use others and get favors because they knew just what to say and how to play off the dynamic between them and their environment. 

You don't seem to have a difficult relationship with Ne, else ISFJ wouldn't be off the table.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

You make good points, however my manipulation is seldom to make people do something they don't want to.
I'm really awful at lying and manipulating people to make things they don't want to.
I can make them angry and I can find out what they hate and I adapt to their view and argue for it to make the other person react in agreement.

I could barely convince an ISTJ guy that his friends had already left tho, if that shows my skills in manipulations.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Right, so you may be a step away from those who manipulate to get things that the others don't even want to give. But I'd still say what you actually describe yourself doing is more Fe-reasoning.

If you could see Si being a well-developed but ultimately parimarily unhealthy function in you, then I'd definitely think about ENFP and ENTP, I guess particularly the latter due to the Fe-use. 

For whatever reason, I feel like Fe shouldn't be below tertiary in you. May still lead to an uncertain type ultimately, but still. 

Your responses about your dynamic with people seem pretty similar to me, except I'd guess I'm more Ni than you, and you're more Ne than I am. And ENTP actually isn't _that_ bad a fit for me, given I definitely use Ne and Ti a lot, and Fe as well, and certainly Si, but the issue there for _me_ would be Ne-dominance is more questionable.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> Right, so you may be a step away from those who manipulate to get things that the others don't even want to give. But I'd still say what you actually describe yourself doing is more Fe-reasoning.
> 
> If you could see Si being a well-developed but ultimately parimarily unhealthy function in you, then I'd definitely think about ENFP and ENTP, I guess particularly the latter due to the Fe-use.
> 
> ...


Issue is that most NTPs are really sure about their own systems, like LeaT for example.
I can't even remember mine.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Yeah, I'm more NTP-like in that sense. My dominant is intuitive, so my system may be a bit more fluid, but it is something I'm always pretty aware of. If you don't really do that, then Ti can't be a huge part of you...it would be too systematic for you. LeaT's systems tend to incorporate the amount of subtlety that I'd like to see, personally. I'm usually mostly pretty skeptical of systems otherwise. 

How about ENFP with a strong use of Fe? What about ENFJ? Did you throw ENFJ out due to your being clearly more of an Ne-user? I don't see you as Fe-dominant so far, even if you are clearly a user.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> Yeah, I'm more NTP-like in that sense. My dominant is intuitive, so my system may be a bit more fluid, but it is something I'm always pretty aware of. If you don't really do that, then Ti can't be a huge part of you...it would be too systematic for you. LeaT's systems tend to incorporate the amount of subtlety that I'd like to see, personally. I'm usually mostly pretty skeptical of systems otherwise.
> 
> How about ENFP with a strong use of Fe? What about ENFJ? Did you throw ENFJ out due to your being clearly more of an Ne-user? I don't see you as Fe-dominant so far, even if you are clearly a user.


I was quite sure that I was INFJ, but then the definition of extroversion came up and I realized that I was quite social. Even if there was a computer-screen and stuff between me and the people I talk to.

ENFPs are a bit too crazy for me.
Knew one and she was quite odd according to me.
I wanted her to slow down rather than join her in craziness.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

I think INFJs take quite an interest in some forms of being social! Particularly with a computer screen. If you by your own admission seem to not fit the system super neatly, it is about hazarding the best fit, and you will have to allow for (by your definition) the possibility of non-crazy ENFPs, and INTPs who can step back from their systems. 

Some would call your thread-starting crazy  but I can I think somewhat understand.

I think any of the types can be very into people, but it depends what goes through their minds while they interact. If reasoning about the relation between you and others is indeed top for you, maybe you can consider ESFJ or something. 

Like I know a very super social ESFP. But she is not primarily an Fe user, and I think I use more Fe than she does by a lot.

I agree with previous posts that you have Ne, but it looks like for you, we need to pick four functions whose order is reasonable and does fit well, rather than taking functions you use and starting off with those, since you use a lot of different things. For one thing, you seem to use both Ne and Fe, which I do too, but you seem less clearly Ni than I, so it is making it hard to go for wither NFP or NFJ. So we might have to choose one of those, or even SF and decide which one is less horrible a fit.

Somehow I am starting to agree INFJ does not quite sound right for you, but not due to socialness necessarily.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Here's a discussion that is currently going on between me and an INTP

INTP: Sure. But some types are actually more advantageous to be than others. That is why some people actually think they are types they are not. I see it often.

Me: INTP, no type is more advantageous than another. It depends a lot on what you want to do with your life.
That a specific type is seen as more advantageous has to do with the ego believing it is, thus it is a subjective view that one is more advantageous than the other.

INTP: Actually it has a lot to do with what is going outside you also. Not just what is inside. Inside and outside together are important. And so all you have to do is look around and you will see that people with certain traits, characteristics are in fact in better positions in life than others. It is the acceptance of this reality that is needed, not thinking that everything is equal. That would be akin to living in some Utopian dream.

Me: INTP, what do you define as a good position in life?
My definition of a good position in life/good job is a calm place where I don't get stressed and where I get enough money to have some fun, but I got no goal to be rich.

Everyone doesn't seek power and those who do are usually wrong for it, but get it anyways.

INTP: I don't see your point, how me defining what I think is a good position has any relevance.

Me: You said "all you have to do is look around and you will see that people with certain traits, characteristics are in fact in better positions in life than others". 
So what "better positions" are you speaking of?

INTP: You can't see people who are smarter, dumber, richer, poorer, prettier, uglier, talented, useless?

Me: Nope. It's all per definition.
The smart guy might be useless when it comes to people or dealing with technical things. 

The dumb person might be extremely good with his hands and might be an artist. 

The rich guy is left with a void, because there is nothing to achieve. 

The poor person who knows the value of being supportive.

The pretty one might have a heart of stone and believe that he/she is the center of the world. the ugly might be the kindest of them all. 

The talented might be arrogant and the useless might be humble.
The question is, what are you seeking?
I'd rather be the dumb guy, who is poor, ugly and useless. Why? because those are the best people.

INTP: Actually those are just your definitions 

Me: Tho they are often true.

INTP: They might be, sometimes, or not. Others can supply different definitions. And all that means in the end is there are a lot of differences, as I was pointing out.

Me: I might think that you are dumb, but you might be a scientist on your way to develop a cure for cancer.
Stupidity is in the eyes of the beholder 

INTP: It is also based on measurement. Like school achievements, math, mechanical abilities, artistry, and many more. Variety is the spice of life.

Me: My mother barely completed school, but she understands more swedish, english and german than me.

My father isn't the brightest, but he's really good at creating stuff.

My sister isn't the kindest, but she's "smart" and good looking

I'm not good looking, nor am I the smartest, but I am the one who gives the brilliant ideas to the people who can do things about it and I try to be kind.

To define "better positions", then you need to understand what the goal of the person is.
It is all in the eye of the beholder.I don't want to be rich, I got no use for all the money and I don't want the publicity that comes with it.

INTP: Understanding more languages does not necessarily equate to intelligence. Every child can learn multiple languages without understanding how. "Creating stuff" that could mean a lot of different things. So again you are just reinforcing what I was pointing out. Variety is the rule, sameness isn't.

Me: Your point was that some are better than others.
"Sure. But some types are actually more advantageous to be than others."

INTP: And they are.
Variety doesn't mean all the same. It means some are better, some are worse.

Me: For a specific task. Not in the general scheme of things.

*I will cut of here because the discussion is still ongoing.*


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

*I want to dedicate my real 1k post (one of my posts were removed so I'm -1 post according to the system than it says in my post count) to my own thread, which can seem narcissistic, but I just like it that way.*

Anyways, what I was trying to illustrate was a real debate between me and an INTP, without thinking about how it correlated to the different types. I just spoke my mind (since I didn't think of posting it here at the time).

Looking at how I always tried to get him to see the other side and that I didn't really argue against him, but rather against his idea of being certain about his perception. I see some Ne at work.
However, with the risk of being biased then it wasn't as clean as a Ne dom would've been, but rather tainted by where I wanted the conversation to go. It seems rather INP-ish.

Tho I would appreciate other peoples' opinions.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> However, with the risk of being biased then it wasn't as clean as a Ne dom would've been, but rather tainted by where I wanted the conversation to go. It seems rather INP-ish.


I could easily see Ne-dominants moving in the direction of where they want the conversation wants to go, by using functions like Ti. While they may be Ne-dominant in a holistic sense, I think an Ne-dominant with strong Ti (or Fi) might easily taint the conversation, depending on what the conversation is.

The basic thing I find in order for MBTI to work fairly well is that there are going to be times we use other functions over our dominants, but as a whole, things should be generally supporting the dominant's activities. 

There are times I'm very Ti, instead of Ni, but it falls pretty clearly short of a Ti-dominant.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> I could easily see Ne-dominants moving in the direction of where they want the conversation wants to go, by using functions like Ti. While they may be Ne-dominant in a holistic sense, I think an Ne-dominant with strong Ti (or Fi) might easily taint the conversation, depending on what the conversation is.
> 
> The basic thing I find in order for MBTI to work fairly well is that there are going to be times we use other functions over our dominants, but as a whole, things should be generally supporting the dominant's activities.
> 
> There are times I'm very Ti, instead of Ni, but it falls pretty clearly short of a Ti-dominant.


Yes, however that still leaves me on the NP field if I'm not mistaken.
The way I argued against that INTP is how I usually argue.
Or at least how I prefer to argue.

I seldom seek being right in an argument, I seek the other person understanding that their way of viewing something isn't the only way.

btw. I think that my problem with memory doesn't have to do with Si. I got an awful memory about some things, but I got a really good memory for things I read and things other people say. @mimesis, you can also comment here if you want :tongue:


*PS. yay for the official 1k post for me now!*


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Last thread I was convinced of ENTP, but this time I'm seeing less Ti-Fe and more Fi-Te: Fi in the way you have an awareness of your own feelings and Te in the way you bring in information from other sources. You don't reason (Ti) so much as you present facts (Te). Your Ne is really, really strong, but so is your focus on yourself, so it's hard to tell if you're a cognitive extrovert or introvert. I still think, from strong evidence that came up in the last thread, that Si rather than Te is your inferior function. And I think your use of Te is too strong to be inferior. So I'm going with ENFP. Not all ENFPs are crazy. The common thread I see in all the different ENFPs I personally know is that they have very, very active minds and lots and lots of ideas which they love to share with other people.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

At the very least, I think you'll be well-equipped based on these comments to get closer to your type, because at least these are a few ways key samples of your personality can be interpretted (now you have access to more) ... and don't say you forget all about everything, and thus have nothing to go off than we do 

Like said above, I think the way you type people has the quality of offering them all the possibilities, and organizing all the facts you find necessary to type them, more than using a personal system, which by your own view, you can hardly remember.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> Last thread I was convinced of ENTP, but this time I'm seeing less Ti-Fe and more Fi-Te: Fi in the way you have an awareness of your own feelings and Te in the way you bring in information from other sources. You don't reason (Ti) so much as you present facts (Te). Your Ne is really, really strong, but so is your focus on yourself, so it's hard to tell if you're a cognitive extrovert or introvert. I still think, from strong evidence that came up in the last thread, that Si rather than Te is your inferior function. And I think your use of Te is too strong to be inferior. So I'm going with ENFP. Not all ENFPs are crazy. The common thread I see in all the different ENFPs I personally know is that they have very, very active minds and lots and lots of ideas which they love to share with other people.


Yea... I once spent like 5 minutes in the ENFP forum on facebook.
I left because they started to laugh at my comments and at my friends.

I kinda got this thing against EFPs.
My mother and sister are both hazard zones (tho my sister is a bit better) and I knew an ENFP who pretended like she never knew me when she broke up with my closest friend (which left me feeling used because I had hurt my INTP friend for him to stay in that relationship and then she was the one who crushed his heart in the end).

Short story: EFPs usually leave me when it isn't profitable to know me anymore and will use me for their own purposes while they know me.

Generally I sense ESFPs and they are kinda drawn to me, tho I find them antagonizing.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Someone once told me I could not be INFJ because of having a terrible experience with one, so I guess it depends a) if the said person was mistyped, and b) whether there cannot exist a display of a certain combination of cognitive functions in a way that does not sit poorly with you.

What do you think happens With EFP there that does not with IFP? Since you yourself identify with IFP...


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> Someone once told me I could not be INFJ because of having a terrible experience with one, so I guess it depends a) if the said person was mistyped, and b) whether there cannot exist a display of a certain combination of cognitive functions in a way that does not sit poorly with you.
> 
> What do you think happens With EFP there that does not with IFP? Since you yourself identify with IFP...


They are a lot more open with their opinions than IFPs.
The EFPs I know try to force people to believe what they do. IFPs don't.

I'm trying to upload a type me video.
Unsure if it works atm.

Stay tuned! 

btw. I tried to answer these questions:

*Video Questionnaire Extraordinaire*
*1.) Pick three words/short phrases to describe yourself and explain.

2.) Why are you interested in typology, finding our your type, or just exploring? Why are you making this video, basically?

3.) Go through the main activities in your life. What is most important to you? What do you like best? Why do you do each of the things you do?

4.) Explain your education/work background. Why did you take this route?

5.) What are your short-term and long-term goals, and why?

6.) What kind of a friend/partner are you? Care to share any of your history?

7.) How would your closest friends describe you? Your family? What about someone who doesn't like you?

8.) What do you think people's first impressions of you tend to be like? Online impressions? Why do you think this is so? Do you think this is accurate?

9.) What's a typical day like for you?

10.) What are your favorite things about yourself? Least favorite things? (It can be ANYTHING.)

11.) Movies/TV shows/music of choice? Interests in general? Why?

12.) What are your thoughts on people in general? (Yes, this question is meant to be very open-ended. Interpret as you'd like.)

13.) If we ought to know ONE THING about you, what should it be?

14.) Go through your background, or at least the important parts. Has anything happened that has majorly affected you? Family life, school life, any sort of misfortune? What do you think of your life in general?

15.) What is/are your personal philosophy/beliefs/whatever?

16.) What type do YOU think you are? Why?

17.) Do others tend to agree with your typing? Why do you think others think what they do about your type?

18.) With what types do you get along best? Worst?

19.) How are you in terms of self-esteem and the like?*


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator, I guess though, the IFP may still leave you if you don't align with him/her! Why do you think EFP tries to force, or is it just the special instances of your acquaintances? I would think with well developed Ne, an ENFP may be pretty good at seeing different points of view to feed the Fi reasoning. Are we sure these are not IFP with social extroversion?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Listened to the ISFJ guy, lol.
He made a guess that there's no so many sensors around because it's so theoretical and not so concrete.
I'm here because it is theoretical and not so concrete. I love that stuff.
Can't really comment on the other videos.

If I was stiff or something in my video that it was a combination of me being stressed out about making a video and because my camera on my IPhone didn't really give me much space to move around.



> There's just no way in hell you reason like she does.


Don't know what to respond to that...
I'm glad I'm not in hell?

I'm unsure about your vote for ESFJ and NeFe loop as well.
If my ISTJ father complains about anything then it's that he doesn't understand how I make connections between things. I get headache when I try to explain things in a way that he understands because I move from A to O without really knowing what comes in between. So when I need to explain things to him I need to go down to a lot more detailed level than I'm comfortable with.

Maybe I should ask someone I know IRL if I'm hard to approach or if it's easy?

EDIT: Asked some people... The general opinion is that I'm fairly easy to approach.
And considering that people appraoch me quite a lot kinda supports that.

A lot of random people apprach me and it would seem as if they do it quite easy. 
I don't put much focus on defending against people who approach me. I'm actually happy/intrigued when people approach me and want to talk.
Even people I don't like seem to have an easy time. Otherwise they wouldn't keep trying to talk to me, lol.

EDIT 2: This was what an ESTP I know told me "It's not hard to talk to you, but you may have unusual hobby compared to this "modern" society, or so you might have difficulty expressing yourself like teenagers today"


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

One of the reasons why I thought Ni dom is because I can view myself from an outside perspective and kinda move around my personality and see it from different point of views.

It's hard to describe, it's like my personality is a floating essence and I can freely move around and see it from different angles.
That's also my problem with finding out my type on my own.

I see so many ways to see myself that I don't know which one is true.

Move reference from Men in Black 3 incoming.

* *




If you've watched Men in Black 3, then my view of my personality is a bit like the dude that can see into the future. I can see the possibilities, just not which one is real.




So in contradiction to LeaT's comment, it's not that I can't introspect, it's that I simply see too many possibilities.

Am I nice? Yes, I am nice, I tend to put the needs of other's before my own.
Am I rude? Yes, I am rude, I tend to make harsh jokes and be blunt to people I find stupid.
Am I soft hearted? Yes, when I was a child I would start crying when my parents were shouting at my sister and I am emotionally reactive.
Am I cold hearted? Yes, I can become emotionally detached and I tend to pick at peoples' weaknesses.
Do I prefer to create ideas? Yes, I can look at something and just create ideas and possibilities.
Do I prefer to combine ideas? Yes, I can take a lot of ideas and make them into a short summary of what it was from the beginning.
Am I private? Yes, I tend to be suspicious about the people I give out information to.
Am I open? Yes, I tend to just spill out personal information at times.

I don't think I need more examples of how I see things in my mind or why this is my issue when trying to find a type that fits me.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

I just realized something important about Si: people with high Si have a hard time accepting new information. My mother knows, for example, that to give my ISFJ brother advice and get him to do something, you have to plant the seed and give it a week to grow, and then he thinks it's his own idea, and he's ready for it. Similarly, I'm noticing that people who show up in this type-me forum and display obvious signs of Si are sometimes very resistant to your ideas of their type. There's one I recognized months ago as an ISFJ, and so did many others, and we told him so, but he didn't see it, and I hadn't seen him around, but I ran across his profile last night and he's an ISFJ. I've experienced a similar dynamic in a few cases recently.

I think, then, that Acer has significantly higher Si than I've been noticing. I'd been noticing the Ne, but unlike someone with naturally high Ne, he's resistant to new possibilities. It's not that he's unable to choose from all the possibilities (Ne), it's that he's resistant to him (Si). Nothing inherently wrong with that, he just needs time to process them. Si. SJ.

Gotta go. I'll probably be back later with more thoughts.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> I just realized something important about Si: people with high Si have a hard time accepting new information. My mother knows, for example, that to give my ISFJ brother advice and get him to do something, you have to plant the seed and give it a week to grow, and then he thinks it's his own idea, and he's ready for it. Similarly, I'm noticing that people who show up in this type-me forum and display obvious signs of Si are sometimes very resistant to your ideas of their type. There's one I recognized months ago as an ISFJ, and so did many others, and we told him so, but he didn't see it, and I hadn't seen him around, but I ran across his profile last night and he's an ISFJ. I've experienced a similar dynamic in a few cases recently.
> 
> I think, then, that Acer has significantly higher Si than I've been noticing. I'd been noticing the Ne, but unlike someone with naturally high Ne, he's resistant to new possibilities. It's not that he's unable to choose from all the possibilities (Ne), it's that he's resistant to him (Si). Nothing inherently wrong with that, he just needs time to process them. Si. SJ.
> 
> Gotta go. I'll probably be back later with more thoughts.


Well actually, I'm over-whelmed by the possibilities and I distrust the opinions of people who aren't close to me.
So, I'm really just resistant to radically new ideas from people I don't trust to be objective or who I feel don't see things from my point of view (like LeaT).
But indeed, if something comes from a person that I don't trust then it will take some time for me to accept it and I won't make a big scene about it because I don't want people to do a victory dance all over me (which is something my family does).

Also, I asked doctorjuice about my issue with all the possibilities and that.



> I'm still having trouble finding my type, so I'll explain my issue.
> 
> What types are more likely to be "over-whelmed" by possibilities and point of views?
> 
> Because my issue is that every time I try to figure out my type I see reasons why I might be one type or why I might be another and not the first etc. Also, every time I'm asked to describe myself I give different and sometimes contradicting statements.





> My gut reaction is NFP, but that is just a feeling. "Overwhelmed by possibilities" points more toward Ne than say Ni, but I could be wrong.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Well actually, I'm over-whelmed by the possibilities and I distrust the opinions of people who aren't close to me.
> So, I'm really just resistant to radically new ideas from people I don't trust to be objective or who I feel don't see things from my point of view (like LeaT).
> But indeed, if something comes from a person that I don't trust then it will take some time for me to accept it and I won't make a big scene about it because I don't want people to do a victory dance all over me (which is something my family does).


High Si users do feel overwhelmed by lots of possibilities. High Ne users feel energized by them. And you're very wise in being selective who you trust.

Hmm. You don't like big fusses to be made over you. Hmm. I think that rules out ENFP. 

If you make better connections between things that your dad (with his inferior Ne) just doesn't see, you may have higher Ne than he does. Some ESxJs do have quite good use of their Ne. My ESTJ mother, for example, who often begins conversations with me with "I had an idea . . ." and proceeds to inform me of what Te thing her Si-Ne thinks I should do in order to accomplish something I had told her I wanted or needed to do. (Sidenote: I finally figured out this year, thanks to MBTI, that she's usually right, and if I do it instead of rejecting it and biting her head off, like my impulse is to do, I can get some things done her way instead of mine and sometimes it's much easier. Cooperation and understanding. It's a beautiful thing.)

Anyway, my point is that my ESTJ mother has many good ideas, which come from tertiary Ne, which is fairly active in her. I don't think you're a Te-dom like her, but you could be an Fe-dom with decent use of tertiary Ne. So, ESFJ, as @_LeaT_ thinks could be the case.

It would also make sense, if you are ESFJ, that you and LeaT frustrate each other: your Si is resistant to her ideas, your inferior Ti doesn't work at the same level as hers, etc.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@_Acerbusvenator_



> One of the reasons why I thought Ni dom is because I can view myself from an outside perspective and kinda move around my personality and see it from different point of views.
> 
> It's hard to describe, it's like my personality is a floating essence and I can freely move around and see it from different angles.
> That's also my problem with finding out my type on my own.
> ...


This here says Ne and Fe and not Ne and Fi. If it's one thing Fi users don't experience is that they float around not knowing why they are. They are capable of seeing things from different angles all right (Ne), but it will always be in relation to themselves. SiFi grounds them. That you have such an easy time giving up your sense of self/ego really doesn't suggest strong Fi use at all. If anything, it even seems to suggest resistance to it. I also want to point out that you can't seem to decide what's real doesn't seem to suggest strong Ji in general. I can be overwhelmed by feelings of being unable to choose what I prefer more, especially if I have no strong opinions and I need to think about it (but after a while I can usually answer even if it's nto always satisfactory to myself), but never do I doubt what I think is real or not in relation to myself. That's just how Ji works. 


@ltldslwmm, yes, that's what I was thinking too, plus enneagram differences. I think Acer is 2w1 core type as well. Look at a person such as teddy (I never remember those numbers) for example who is an ISFJ. I get along decently well with him, but I have problems to often agree with crono91 who is an INFJ due to his 2w1. 

And I'm not sure if I agree with Doctorjuice's explanation although I think to be quite fair, you took it extremely out of context without truly describing the situation to him so of course he can't give you a proper valid answer.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> High Si users do feel overwhelmed by lots of possibilities. High Ne users feel energized by them. And you're very wise in being selective who you trust.
> 
> Hmm. You don't like big fusses to be made over you. Hmm. I think that rules out ENFP.
> 
> ...


mhm...
Well, one of my closest friends who is very attached to me is ENTJ and those 2 are as far from each other as you can get 
Also, my parents complain that I'm not especially detailed and my ESFP mother was shocked when my ENTJ friend was over because of the depth of our conversation, lol.
Te people seem to get attached to me 
ISTJs, INTJs, ENTJs xD
Tho ESTJs scare me @[email protected]
Their mere presence make me wanna run @[email protected]

A lot of how I act is accumulated from my friends. Like I sometimes act like as if people are idiots and that from my INTP friend (personally I prefer to have a more positive view on people).

Also, my ISTJ dad just can understand the concept of an "example", lol. I've tried to make examples and talk metaphorically to explain things to him, but he just doesn't get it. :laughing:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> @_Acerbusvenator_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now that explanation is something I can accept *nods*
I need that personal touch, like 


> I can be overwhelmed by feelings of being unable to choose what I prefer more, especially if I have no strong opinions and I need to think about it (but after a while I can usually answer even if it's nto always satisfactory to myself), but never do I doubt what I think is real or not in relation to myself. That's just how Ji works.


To accept an argument for something


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I think the problem between me and @_LeaT_ is that she comes with facts after facts and I can't accept facts without an example from real life. This is why I like @_ltldslwmn_'s comments.


> My ESTJ mother, for example, who often begins conversations with me with "I had an idea . . ." and proceeds to inform me of what Te thing her Si-Ne thinks I should do in order to accomplish something I had told her I wanted or needed to do.


But if there's just facts without that personal touch it just gets into one ear and out of the other.

Same thing goes for me when learning. You can bombard me with facts, but I'll just remember that story you told about when you were 5. If you get what I'm saying.
I only "understand" information that got a subjective touch. It also kinda have to do with that it leaves me able to say "well, that's just in your experience" because I kinda dislike when people just put out facts and make their views look like an universal truth.

EDIT: About "not understanding myself", I do. I just know that a lot of things are contradicting when it comes to how we are seen. If I say I'm kind I'm being arrogant, if I say I'm arrogant I'm being humble, if I say I'm humble I'm being c**ky etc. So how can I say that I'm kind, loving and loyal without contradicting myself by saying that? I go around it by saying "I try to be kind, loving and loyal".


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

That really points even further towards being a sensor. Sensor wants to ground theory into something more concrete that they can understand. I don't do that because I'm an intuitive type. I don't need to ground something in a practical example in order to understand it. I understand the principles intuitively.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I think the problem between me and @_LeaT_ is that she comes with facts after facts and I can't accept facts without an example from real life. This is why I like @_ltldslwmn_'s comments.
> 
> But if there's just facts without that personal touch it just gets into one ear and out of the other.
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense. I think LeaT's right about the sensor thing, and I think it's typical of an Fe-dom to need it to relate to something personal.



> EDIT: About "not understanding myself", I do. I just know that a lot of things are contradicting when it comes to how we are seen. If I say I'm kind I'm being arrogant, if I say I'm arrogant I'm being humble, if I say I'm humble I'm being c**ky etc. So how can I say that I'm kind, loving and loyal without contradicting myself by saying that? I go around it by saying "I try to be kind, loving and loyal".


ESFJ for you is starting to make a lot of sense to me.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Sensor wants to ground theory into something more concrete that they can understand. I don't do that because I'm an intuitive type. I don't need to ground something in a practical example in order to understand it. I understand the principles intuitively.


And I'm interested primarily in the principles, but I want to deal with them in real-life examples that represent them in truth. (And I like to see typical examples, not things that are exceptions to the rule. And absurdism grates on me.)


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> That really points even further towards being a sensor. Sensor wants to ground theory into something more concrete that they can understand. I don't do that because I'm an intuitive type. I don't need to ground something in a practical example in order to understand it. I understand the principles intuitively.


Not necessarily concrete tho 
Rather that I was a subjective touch from the person explaining something to me.
Tho I do learn really well from metaphors and that stuff as well.
I love the metaphorical and personal way of communicating.
Not the concrete or the objective way of communicating.
I guess that's why I got issues with explaining things to my father, he likes it concrete and objective and I want it metaphorical and personal. Even the concrete but personal kinda ticks me off (I find it manipulative).


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

> EDIT: About "not understanding myself", I do. I just know that a lot of things are contradicting when it comes to how we are seen. If I say I'm kind I'm being arrogant, if I say I'm arrogant I'm being humble, if I say I'm humble I'm being c**ky etc. So how can I say that I'm kind, loving and loyal without contradicting myself by saying that? I go around it by saying "I try to be kind, loving and loyal".


See, I don't have this problem. You think I'm a certain way I'm not? I don't care. Maybe you think I'm arrogant? Fine, I can accept I can come off as such but I do I think I am? Nope. Therefore, your accuastion doesn't apply to me. That's Ji think.

I want to add that Se is more interested in the concrete than Si. The Si way of understanding the concrete world is much more complicated.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @_Acerbusvenator_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fi doesn't guarantee that the individual knows themselves. They may have a more egocentric point of view, but that does not mean they use it as a means of introspection. Lack of sense of self could be a trait of 9's who are Fi users, since the enneagram 9 lacks a sense of self or the excessive emphasis on the self like an E4 Fi would. 

And Ji is not necessarily oriented in what's real or what's not. Ji sometimes likes to think that something is just because it thinks or feels it is, even though that may not be the case. The concept of reality has more to do with perceiving functions if anything.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> Fi doesn't guarantee that the individual knows themselves. They may have a more egocentric point of view, but that does not mean they use it as a means of introspection. Lack of sense of self could be a trait of 9's who are Fi users, since the enneagram 9 lacks a sense of self or the excessive emphasis on the self like an E4 Fi would.
> 
> And Ji is not necessarily oriented in what's real or what's not. Ji sometimes likes to think that something is just because it thinks or feels it is, even though that may not be the case. The concept of reality has more to do with perceiving functions if anything.


Yes, but I think in his case, I do think there's a strong point to make that he doesn't like to make personal judgement.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Yes, but I think in his case, I do think there's a strong point to make that he doesn't like to make personal judgement.


But I do 
That's why I don't like objective comments, they take away the ability to judge subjectively without sounding close minded.
And by that do you mean like when I said I was an ENFJ when others shouted ENTP? Or when I said I was an INFJ when people say that they see neither Fe nor Ni?
If anything then I tend to ask questions and then not listen to the answers. 

I annoyed you because I kept being stubborn about what I believed, even tho I asked for opinions.

EDIT: Speaking of how I like objectivity. I like objectivity if it supports something I believe, but I love subjective information as the kind that persuades me to believe something else. Since I already got my subjective view point, it's rather annoying with someone coming in with theirs and telling me that I'm right (as if it was a shock to them). I do however like subjective information if it goes against what I believe because then I can choose to ignore it, without it being threatening to what I believe. I also love when people try to understand my subjective view!


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh yeah, wow, I remember I said something about ISFJ and decided I don't like inferior Ne for you. Naturally, ESFJ would come up. I would rather put Fe a bit high than put Ne low.
@Acerbusvenator: I can believe you have more Fi than the thread may betray, and while personal experience is dangerous, I have seen Fi users do this thing where they go reason something and then try to get the world to confirm it (maybe a less confident version of LeaT's described Ji user). 

I also think it is wise to use the nature of the answers more than the answers, because ultimately you have access to a lot more than they. However, this could easily be Si: you say you often just know something is out of place between your experience and what you were typed. I actually think that could be Si poking its way through. 

The extent to which you try to reason how other people think through things about what you say *could* suggest Fe being higher in you than in me.

I think Si being more passive also fits, because you really don't seem to come in with a conclusion in mind, and even if you do, it seems you don't reason it through much and wait to see how it plays out (I can relate to this in some ways as Pi dominant, despite making extensive use of a judging function). I once considered if someone I know, who is pretty settled in her beliefs, is an Fi user, but in reality it is clear she is Si and Fe. You are not necessarily a passive person, and could be aggressive in how you seek people out, but your vibe given is not super Fi to me. But then again, I understood Fi vibes after getting to know some users well. Initially, it would not have been easy to detect.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Also, I have no issues with someone coming to a different conclusion from what others type them as. Ideally though, there will be some dialogue: why choose that outcome and stick to it, when one needed to change types so often earlier? What went through your mind when you chose it? Often, there is some level of over-emphasis and under-emphasis when we type on how much we turn to something or the other. What that something is might help shed light as well.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> High Si users do feel overwhelmed by lots of possibilities. High Ne users feel energized by them.




To expand here, when I was first typing myself, I'm pretty sure there was a bit of a conflict. I enjoy possibilities in relation to the surface, yet my Si is strong enough that I like to think my past thoughts, experiences, everything, are pretty representative. What disconcerts me is not new information so much as new information when I didn't realize how much there was. Otherwise, I love finding a million different things something connects to. This would be consistent both with how LeaT considered at different points in time both Si and Ne dominance for me. 

All in all though, how I deal with it is very Ni: I try to absorb it all into a single not-real/purely-in-my-mind conceptual picture, to deal with the clash of my Si and Ne, and it tends to achieve the "ideal way of looking at things for understanding" _to me _(subjective). 

And I'd almost guess I like examples even less than LeaT. I like them for _fun_, like I'd enjoy getting to know someone and his/her experiences because of interest in people. But seriously, when it comes to typing, or understanding something? I like the bare minimum. I only turn to them when I don't find a presentation of the principles that really helps me, or if the presentation is lengthy, and if I can probably guess the presentation if presented with a simplified scenario.

For instance, when Acerbusvenator made a video, I didn't even consider using it to type him. Not that I wouldn't think it's very useful, but because I just can't think that way easily. I watched it a bit for the same reason that I'd enjoy conversing for the sake of getting to know someone, and thus I enjoyed it possibly for different reasons!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

bearotter said:


> To expand here, when I was first typing myself, I'm pretty sure there was a bit of a conflict. I enjoy possibilities in relation to the surface, yet my Si is strong enough that I like to think my past thoughts, experiences, everything, are pretty representative. What disconcerts me is not new information so much as new information when I didn't realize how much there was. Otherwise, I love finding a million different things something connects to. This would be consistent both with how LeaT considered at different points in time both Si and Ne dominance for me.
> 
> All in all though, how I deal with it is very Ni: I try to absorb it all into a single not-real/purely-in-my-mind conceptual picture, to deal with the clash of my Si and Ne, and it tends to achieve the "ideal way of looking at things for understanding" _to me _(subjective).
> 
> ...


Honestly, I had to force myself to watch the video to claim I wasn't biased although I too felt it was largely unnecessary because I felt I already had sufficient evidence in front of me, with or without the video.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Honestly, I had to force myself to watch the video to claim I wasn't biased




OK, for some reason I find the image of this hilarious


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

@bearotter, you asked if I could explain my choice of type.

I think that people should get what they deserve and that's my issue really.
My father once said that he was bullied by a guy who later married one of his sisters. That guy once called a few weeks or so after my father had said that, when my parents where out.
Not only that, but he called when he was drunk and those 2 factors just became enough for me so I told him what I thought of him and let's just say I don't think he wants to meet me in this life.
I don't feel bad about it tho, because I hate him just as much and that's when my Fi is shown, when someone has hurt someone I love.
I will go to the end of the world if I so need to, just to bring justice.

My values and passions aren't something I throw around for everyone to see. If you see it, you're either a victim of it or the person I'm protecting.
I'm not an activist and I don't care about much in this world. For me, anything physical is just that. What I find important is life is what I choose and the people I choose.

A lot of people talk about how they hate first world problems, I'm the other way around. I couldn't care less about people I've never known, to me they are just numbers and names. But I get pissed if someone has been rude to a friend.

Now, I know enough MBTI to know that these values aren't Fe. Fe is objective and mine are extremely subjective. I also know that I often ignore analyzing things and just act based on what I believe is right.
I'm not like they describe Fi doms with that fluffy sense of right and wrong. Because I wouldn't really care if a friend was a murderer. What matters to me is if the person is kind to me and my friends.

I don't know if any of you get it, but this is why I'm sure that I'm neither NT nor ST.
My only real problem was if I was FJ or FP according to MBTI and what kind of FJ or FP I am.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> What matters to me is if the person is kind to me and my friends.




Well I'm pretty sure you would approve of me somewhat, based on this; I'm kind if at all it can be helped.

But wouldn't you worry about their intentions?

Thanks for your explanation, I think it helps put things into perspective for me. 





> I also know that I often ignore analyzing things and just act based on what I believe is right.




I agree this is a significant point, and does not point to Fe, but I guess the thing is, your type isn't a simple answer to me. As someone with 4 as part of my enneagram, my sense of self is very much there, and I do use Fi a lot. That said, I don't quite fit the flavor at all of an Fi-dominant user. Yes, I use Fi on some counts, and I'm pretty fiercely protective of some things.

But nonetheless, what do you turn to a _lot_ in your daily life? It seems like even if you are an Fi-user, you use Fe a lot. Much, much more than I've gathered a lot of Fi-dominants use. So that's why I'd say, we should be very careful when just going with one of the Fi-dom types.

I hardly could say I get my values from Fe. You don't _have_ to get your values from Fe to be a predominantly Fe-user, as far as I can tell, because Fe's domain is not quite as much value-based reasoning. Like you said, it's a lot more interested in thinking about what exists outside you.

Since you use both functions, I'd say other factors probably need to be looked at to get the best fit for you. Much as how I am a heavy Ni and Si user.

Is Te inferior for you? I say you yourself have described Ti being closer to an inferior for you. An inferior would be something that is not really our strong point, that we still use as a fairly big part of us and contributes a lot to the flavor of what makes us who we are.




> My values and passions aren't something I throw around for everyone to see. If you see it, you're either a victim of it or the person I'm protecting.




For what it's worth, goes for me too.

Now if you subscribe to the idea that we only use 4 functions mainly, then I will have to give up; I feel like I could justify too many types for you. I don't think I can help in providing a good type for you there. The framework under which I'm able to work is that the 4 that make us up give a distinct flavor. The rest of them may also be there, but they aren't the leaders or the ones giving you the most distinctive flavor that makes you who you are.

If you are 2w1 like some have suggested, well could your Fi-use be related to that? It seems like the places your Fi comes up greatly relate to 2w1. And that could be similar to how my Fi comes up in relation to 4.

I feel like your Fe, Si, and Ne have an identity that contributes to how you think pretty independent of 2w1, whereas Fi seems colored a lot more by it. That's why I don't think ESFJ is a bad choice. Of course, those functions do interact with 2w1 too. But they still have their own identity, it seems.

The more we learn about you that goes forward from the picture we have, the more certain we can be though.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

> But wouldn't you worry about their intentions?


I intuitively understand a persons intentions. I wouldn't worry.



> But nonetheless, what do you turn to a _lot_ in your daily life? It seems like even if you are an Fi-user, you use Fe a lot. Much, much more than I've gathered a lot of Fi-dominants use. So that's why I'd say, we should be very careful when just going with one of the Fi-dom types.


Well, Fe is external and objective, my values are set by me and not society.


> Is Te inferior for you? I say you yourself have described Ti being closer to an inferior for you. An inferior would be something that is not really our strong point, that we still use as a fairly big part of us and contributes a lot to the flavor of what makes us who we are.


I like to think of the inferior function as just the opposite of the dominant function, since it is hard to find out what the inferior function is.


> If you are 2w1 like some have suggested, well could your Fi-use be related to that? It seems like the places your Fi comes up greatly relate to 2w1. And that could be similar to how my Fi comes up in relation to 4.


I agree with 6w5 a lot more than 2w1.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> so I told him what I thought of him and let's just say I don't think he wants to meet me in this life.
> I don't feel bad about it tho, because I hate him just as much and that's when my Fi is shown, when someone has hurt someone I love.
> I will go to the end of the world if I so need to, just to bring justice.


Being overwhelmingly protective and defensive of the people you love is not so much Fi, it's very Fe.



> My values and passions aren't something I throw around for everyone to see. If you see it, you're either a victim of it or the person I'm protecting.


Not Fi. Totally Fe. 



> I'm not an activist and I don't care about much in this world. For me, anything physical is just that. What I find important is life is what I choose and the people I choose.
> 
> A lot of people talk about how they hate first world problems, I'm the other way around. I couldn't care less about people I've never known, to me they are just numbers and names. But I get pissed if someone has been rude to a friend.


Not a chance you're xNFP, then. xFxJ.



> Now, I know enough MBTI to know that these values aren't Fe. Fe is objective and mine are extremely subjective.


I respectfully disagree. Fe is just as subjective as Fi, it's just concerned with other people more than itself.



> My only real problem was if I was FJ or FP according to MBTI and what kind of FJ or FP I am.


Go with FJ.


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

> A lot of people talk about how they hate first world problems, I'm the other way around. I couldn't care less about people I've never known, to me they are just numbers and names. But I get pissed if someone has been rude to a friend.


and



> I think that people should get what they deserve and that's my issue really.
> My father once said that he was bullied by a guy who later married one of his sisters. That guy once called a few weeks or so after my father had said that, when my parents where out.
> Not only that, but he called when he was drunk and those 2 factors just became enough for me so I told him what I thought of him and let's just say I don't think he wants to meet me in this life.
> I don't feel bad about it tho, because I hate him just as much and that's when my Fi is shown, when someone has hurt someone I love.
> I will go to the end of the world if I so need to, just to bring justice.


This is very much an Si thing... I feel like lots of Si people don't care about people they don't know but are super protective of people they consider friends and they really can take things really personally (like really personally ...they really can be offended super easily and can become defensive and won't listen to anyone). It can make them appear Fi. Si users really do know what's important to them and they readily stand up for themselves just like an Fi-type can and it really hurts them when they are held back. Even ESFJs can be super subjective (I've noticed that from my own experience with a super possible ESFJ and another ESFJ that I am certain about ...just like you they are comfortable with both Si and Ne). Fe doesn't mean that the social world will determine your values. It comes from your own experiences and how you interpreted them.

...Also, that is what annoys me about people ...you got angry at a dude who did nothing to you ...but to your dad? That's not a nice thing, in my opinion. I know you love your dad, but let him fight his own battles and if he needs help then yeah... help him... but I hate it when people don't keep their feelings to themselves. ...I mean, I am not judging you ...but the world is too unique to say that "justice should be served". ...I am not saying this has anything to do with functions ...just stating my crap/whatthefuck opinions. 

...not saying you're an ESFJ, though, either it's your enneagram or something else ...but you really do seem to rely on Fe-think if you examine your interactions with at least one person on this forum (not mentioning names). You rely on it ...a lot. You do seem manipulative in the Fe way (not that you're doing anything bad ...but you appeal to others emotions A LOT on PerC). ...I am just noticing this from seeing you interact on the forums. 

So yeah, you don't have to listen to me (I am not as knowledgeable as everyone else and spewing shitty ideas is just what I do xD) ....sssoo uuuhhhh *cough*

*ahem...* you super debatey people can about your debatey business now ^_^


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

pandamiga said:


> ...Also, that is what annoys me about people ...you got angry at a dude who did nothing to you ...but to your dad? That's not a nice thing, in my opinion. I know you love your dad, but let him fight his own battles and if he needs help then yeah... help him... but I hate it when people don't keep their feelings to themselves. ...I mean, I am not judging you ...but the world is too unique to say that "justice should be served". ...I am not saying this has anything to do with functions ...just stating my crap/whatthefuck opinions.


My father keeps a promise to his father (even tho his father has been dead for a long time now). I wasn't under that restriction.
Tho what really ticked me off wasn't that he was my father's old bully, it was that he only could get the guts to call us when he was intoxicated. THAT was like a kick in the guts to me.
It's just one of those rules you learn about me.
Even if my closest friend called me when he was intoxicated I'd be rude because I see it as a lack of respect to call someone when you're not in your right mind. It's like "I find you so disgusting that I need to be on the point of falling of my chair to call you".
A girl I liked called me via video chat - I saw a glass with alcohol. I don't think we've talked after that.

Alcohol really ticks me off.
Part of it is that my mother has told me how it was to be brought up in a family with a father who drank and would beat his wife and might punch the kids from time to time.
The other part is because my mother has become addicted to alcohol as well.
And the third part is that people tell me you "must" drink alcohol at one point in your life. I really hate when people tell me what I must and must not do. That also makes me find that everyone who drinks alcohol has fallen under the pressure and thus I see people as weak/pathetic when they are drinking.
Another reason for me being rude to that guy is because I feel such contempt around intoxicated people, and that combined with him only calling when he's intoxicated and being my father's old bully was just enough to make me have enough. Plus the fact that I've been bullied myself and I thus despise bullies.

The second thing I hate about as much as alcohol is the military. Tho I think I've made my point :tongue:

Also, being brought up in a family with 2 ESFPs I'm aware that they are really good at emotional manipulation and making you feel like you've been a mean person etc. which could be seen as Fe emotional manipulation, but it isn't. I'm also really susceptible to that form of manipulation.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

pandamiga said:


> ...Also, that is what annoys me about people ...you got angry at a dude who did nothing to you ...but to your dad? That's not a nice thing, in my opinion. I know you love your dad, but let him fight his own battles and if he needs help then yeah... help him... but I hate it when people don't keep their feelings to themselves. ...I mean, I am not judging you ...but the world is too unique to say that "justice should be served". ...I am not saying this has anything to do with functions ...just stating my crap/whatthefuck opinions.


Haha! My Ti-dom analysis: the Fi-dom doesn't get the Fe-dom's emotional reactions.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

@LiquidLight, I call for your wisdom 

Until then a music video of a song my mother has started to like (figures)


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> Not a chance you're xNFP, then. xFxJ.


Tho if that had to do with Fe, my INTP friend wouldn't secretly think of killing people who complain at first world problems (he doesn't know my motives, hehehe...)

I think one of the things that pulls me from Si is that the SJs I know seem to be a lot for keeping promises and obligations and stuff. I don't like obligations and I only make promises I can keep. If I'm manipulated into making a promise anyways I will break the promise when I see a good place to bail out.

I mean, when my ISTJ dad made his promise to his dad, he held it. I would've just smiled and nodded and promised and then not really care about the promise. If caught being mean I would make up an excuse like "it's not my fault he's easy to offend" etc.


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> My father keeps a promise to his father (even tho his father has been dead for a long time now). I wasn't under that restriction.
> Tho what really ticked me off wasn't that he was my father's old bully, it was that he only could get the guts to call us when he was intoxicated. THAT was like a kick in the guts to me.
> It's just one of those rules you learn about me.
> Even if my closest friend called me when he was intoxicated I'd be rude because I see it as a lack of respect to call someone when you're not in your right mind. It's like "I find you so disgusting that I need to be on the point of falling of my chair to call you".
> ...


Well, I still see Si because my ESFJs would still have those kinds of strong personal opinions. My INFP/ENFP friends are more flexible even though they may hold such strong opinions. I don't think they like enforcing their experiences and opinions on others (especially their closest friends) like you just described and I've never seen them explode on anyone just because they disagree with others' actions (....ESPECIALLY THEIR CLOSEST FRIENDS). I mean, they do get mad (of course) but it's very different from the way you described...

but that's just what I've seen with ESFJs compared with ENFPs/INFPs... soooooo yyyyyeeuuupppp... I could be wrong.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

pandamiga said:


> Well, I still see Si because my ESFJs would still have those kinds of strong personal opinions. My INFP/ENFP friends are more flexible even though they may hold such strong opinions. I don't think they like enforcing their experiences and opinions on others (especially their closest friends) like you just described and I've never seen them explode on anyone just because they disagree with others' actions (....ESPECIALLY THEIR CLOSEST FRIENDS). I mean, they do get mad (of course) but it's very different from the way you described...
> 
> but that's just what I've seen with ESFJs compared with ENFPs/INFPs... soooooo yyyyyeeuuupppp... I could be wrong.


My way of dealing with friends is passive, I just find it uncomfortable to talk to them, so I avoid talking to them (which has to do with me wanting to make a point that I don't find it okay, without causing real damage to the relationship).
When my INTP friend tried to force me to drink I didn't talk to him in a long while, tho that had to do with us not meeting in person. I can't really hold grudges when I'm meeting the person in... person like that. I can be bitter, but I won't confront them in a hostile manner... just in a passive-aggressive way.
I don't force my way of living onto others either, but I don't like when others try to force me into their way of living. That I feel contempt for alcohol is more of a defense mechanism I've made so that I won't start drinking (it's my 6w5ness and security concerns).


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> My way of dealing with friends is passive, I just find it uncomfortable to talk to them, so I avoid talking to them (which has to do with me wanting to make a point that I don't find it okay, without causing real damage to the relationship).
> When my INTP friend tried to force me to drink I didn't talk to him in a long while, tho that had to do with us not meeting in person. I can't really hold grudges when I'm meeting the person in... person like that. I can be bitter, but I won't confront them in a hostile manner... just in a passive-aggressive way.
> I don't force my way of living onto others either, but I don't like when others try to force me into their way of living. That I feel contempt for alcohol is more of a defense mechanism I've made so that I won't start drinking (it's my 6w5ness and security concerns).


So you think you're more Fi then? I still see strong Si... you reference too much of your experiences for it not to be really high.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> I agree with 6w5 a lot more than 2w1.


Fair enough; I guess I did originally consider you a 6, I just thought maybe you'd changed your mind, the way people were talking. But I should know better than to consider that you'd likely be thinking the same as those typing you 



> I like to think of the inferior function as just the opposite of the dominant function, since it is hard to find out what the inferior function is.


I also like to think of the dominant function as the opposite of the inferior. It can sometimes be even harder to find the dominant, particularly if you have 2-3 very strongly expressed functions. 



> I intuitively understand a persons intentions. I wouldn't worry.


Sure, sure, but I meant, you made a theoretical statement about a criminal being someone you'd be OK with if he/she were nice to you, etc. I'd assume you don't know the intentions of every criminal who might be nice to you.



> Fe is objective and mine are extremely subjective.





> Fe is just as subjective as Fi, it's just concerned with other people more than itself.


Maybe you both mean the same thing? I'd say neither Fe nor Te is itself objective, but both are concerned with reasoning about the object rather than subjective principles. Both analyze the objective, but in different ways. One works with external systems, the other is a feeling function.



I simply don't think anyone goes through life never using Fe. The question is which fits into your personality profile. I have no doubt you use Fe from what you've said, but I'm willing to accept that you might use Fi. That's something you can know better than I can.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> I think one of the things that pulls me from Si is that the SJs I know seem to be a lot for keeping promises and obligations and stuff. I don't like obligations and I only make promises I can keep.


It sounds like you value keeping your promises, too. You don't like obligations that mean nothing to you. But that doesn't mean you'll tend to let yourself get assigned them willingly. You suggest you'll try to avoid getting manipulated into a promise you can't keep.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> It sounds like you value keeping your promises, too. You don't like obligations that mean nothing to you. But that doesn't mean you'll tend to let yourself get assigned them willingly. You suggest you'll try to avoid getting manipulated into a promise you can't keep.


Indeed, but I've almost always been hyper-aware if what I can achieve and not.
It's a kinda annoying thing I've been able to do xD
Same goes for food, I know how the food will taste before I taste it.

I don't really see the point in committing to a promise you know you can't keep. But I do make promises to evade a situation (like everyone else does).



> Sure, sure, but I meant, you made a theoretical statement about a criminal being someone you'd be OK with if he/she were nice to you, etc. I'd assume you don't know the intentions of every criminal who might be nice to you.


Yes, I believe I would.
I sense what the person's intentions are. It's a bit like as if I can smell it, especially danger.
I also tend to make small tests on people to see what their reaction is.



> So you think you're more Fi then? I still see strong Si... you reference too much of your experiences for it not to be really high.


I did suggest a FiSi loop at the beginning of this thread because it seemed a lot like me.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator, you mean you could smell it before you even knew the criminal? That's what I was clarifying. I wouldn't assume it's in true that _any_ criminal who is nice to you is necessarily going to be OK in your books. I don't doubt that you might be able to figure out his intentions, but point is, they might be bad.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> @_Acerbusvenator_, you mean you could smell it before you even knew the criminal? That's what I was clarifying. I wouldn't assume it's in true that _any_ criminal who is nice to you is necessarily going to be OK in your books. I don't doubt that you might be able to figure out his intentions, but point is, they might be bad.


Yep, they might be bad, or they might not be 
And it's true, I wouldn't accept many forms of criminals, but that's mostly to protect other friends.
But I tend to know if it's too risky, or at least I believe I would xD

I just made an example to make a point


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

@ltldslwmn, your comment about how I can't be an FP because I'm not an activist etc. made me think.
How many NFP activists do you know who are guys?
I mean, the people I've been compared to are mostly female Fi doms. (Like LeaT compared me to @pandamiga, who happens to also be 2w1 and not 6w5 like me)
There's a large difference between female and male Fi doms.
It's seen as odd in society if a guy starts to get crazy over like animal rights and stuff, but if it's a girl, then people just kinda accept it.
Also, I've found that it's rather the EFPs that are the activists, ESFPs especially.

First off, NFPs are more of idea people that might suggest actions rather than take action.
Secondly, IFPs like to keep their values close to them and doesn't feel the need to share it with the world (EFPs usually do).
And third, I'm a guy


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> How many NFP activists do you know who are guys?
> I mean, the people I've been compared to are mostly female Fi doms. (Like LeaT compared me to @_pandamiga_, who happens to also be 2w1 and not 6w5 like me)
> There's a large difference between female and male Fi doms.
> It's seen as odd in society if a guy starts to get crazy over like animal rights and stuff, but if it's a girl, then people just kinda accept it.
> ...



It isn't so much how much activist work you do or don't do. I know xNFPs who do none. It's whether or not you tend to be interested and care about issues that affect people around the world, social justice, etc. My ENFP friend is not an activist, but he's deeply interested in political and social issues. I've learned a lot about those things from him. You're not interested in those things, you're only interested in personal connections. Example: My ESFJ aunt has no interest in international politics, doesn't know a thing about how third-world governments actually oppress their poor, but she sponsors a child in a third-world country and exchanges letters and photos with him. For her, if it doesn't have the personal contact, it doesn't mean much. That's what you said about yourself, too, isn't it?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> It isn't so much how much activist work you do or don't do. I know xNFPs who do none. It's whether or not you tend to be interested and care about issues that affect people around the world, social justice, etc. My ENFP friend is not an activist, but he's deeply interested in political and social issues. I've learned a lot about those things from him. You're not interested in those things, you're only interested in personal connections. Example: My ESFJ aunt has no interest in international politics, doesn't know a thing about how third-world governments actually oppress their poor, but she sponsors a child in a third-world country and exchanges letters and photos with him. For her, if it doesn't have the personal contact, it doesn't mean much. That's what you said about yourself, too, isn't it?


Indeed, but not on that level.
I only really care about my close circle of friends.
Yet it's hard to explain.

btw. you compared me to an EFP, lol.


> Secondly, IFPs like to keep their values close to them and doesn't feel the need to share it with the world (EFPs usually do).


That's what I meant with EFPs being more of activists than IFPs.

I do care on some level about people I've never met.
I don't hate military just for fun, I hate them because I see them as killers and scavengers (tho it is more directed at the American military).
I'd really start arguments with people just because they defend the military or try to show me why it's good (@facelessbeauty has learned that ).
But my anger is really just directed at people who wish others harm.

I don't care much about politics, because the reasonable parties are all the same.
I don't like those things where you give a village money etc. because it usually stops at the person who gets the money and is supposed to give it to the construction of the village. Doesn't mean I hate those greedy bastards who take the money, but if I'd do anything I'd make sure I knew it counted and wasn't just making the rich even richer. (that's probably where my 6w5ness kicks in).

I'm simply not much for greedy middle-hands and politics that are just clones of each other.

I did say "What I find important is life is what I choose and the people I choose."
Even if you might have missed it 
Never specified what I meant tho, because I said it in an open way because of the complexity.



> A lot of people talk about how they hate first world problems, I'm the other way around. I couldn't care less about people I've never known, to me they are just numbers and names. But I get pissed if someone has been rude to a friend.


Now this is simply because I know I can do something about my friends, but it's quite impossible for 1 person to save the entire third world. It kinda annoys me when people eat well in like Sweden and stuff and complain that children are starving in Africa. Then they get angry when I tell them to send their food to Africa if they are so dedicated. I just hate that double moral, "give your food to the starving children, I won't tho because I'm such a kind person".

I have now asked some INFPs how much of activists they are.
I believe it should bring an interesting result.
If most of them say they're activists, I'll believe you.
If most of them aren't activists, I won't.

btw. I usually check out the different facebook groups and the ESFJ one kinda freak me out a bit... had the same issue with the ENFJ one. By that I mean that they are open, so everyone can see the content and that makes me uncomfortable just that... not to forget what they talked about @[email protected]
I felt more at home with the ISFJs, lol. Even tho that one was also open... 

Took such a long time to write this, so I got a lot of responses.


> Question: How much of activists are you INFPs?





> I don`t know...It is always a kind of conflict in me should I engage my self or stay away of...whatever...





> Activism requires that I be around people who I will probably find very annoying.





> Not a lot, actually. I suppose I have stuff I believe in but I am too much of a coward and fear the consequences since public demonstrations are illegal here. Also the stuff I feel strongly for isn't exactly stuff that can be enforced through activism... It's not that I don't believe in change or improvement. Just that I prefer to do it starting from myself, striving to be the ideal I believe in. If I can touch a few lives with that, I am content.





> I have been a major whistle blower 4 times in my life and it has caused me serious pain. I am not interested in activism, don't think I can add anything new.
> I am thinking I do not care what becomes of this planet after I go.





> Activism is one of the most important things in my life. Although the smallest society or group I feel I belong to is humanity.
> FB is a good tool, since starting a conversation on a friends post, which is related to one of my causes is, an easy way to contact new people (friends of friends) and change the way people think about and do things.





> i cant take the emotion and the conflict and the possibility of being thrown in jail.





> Being that most people in INFP Group are under 60 most will say no different to the previous three comments including myself, and while activism may come with age I doubt much will change in senior years either. While technically the same, this question might be more appropriately asked in the Type 4 Enneagram forum where the Direction of Integration to Type 1 is the ultimate goal of trancendence into anarchist craziness from detached caring which is the INFP way. I protest, I want four creams, not one.


In the answers from the question, it seems as if they aren't much of activists. Some are, but then they want to do it on their own and let themselves be an example.
I actually agree with a lot of what they said, tho not really the "Activism requires that I be around people who I will probably find very annoying." comment, lol.
It leaves a total of 7 responses. None of them seem to be much of "activists" in the modern term.
I might add more answers to my question later, but I think I got what I need to not really budge.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

> But my anger is really just directed at people who wish others harm.


Such an Fe statement. In general there's a lot of Te vitriol but it doesn't seem to come from Fi because you don't look at it from individual instances. Instead you use sweeping statements and generalizations. I want to add that I think you're definitely twisting what ltldslswmm said about activism. It's not about activism itself (that's such an external focus, again shows your extraverted preference) but about how they think about activism. For instance this one:



> Not a lot, actually. I suppose I have stuff I believe in but I am too much of a coward and fear the consequences since public demonstrations are illegal here. Also the stuff I feel strongly for isn't exactly stuff that can be enforced through activism... It's not that I don't believe in change or improvement. Just that I prefer to do it starting from myself, striving to be the ideal I believe in. If I can touch a few lives with that, I am content.


This is such an Fi-Te response. Not only does it extrapolate from subjective reasoning but it also justifies this reasoning with Te - it's illegal. I'm sorry, but you don't talk and think like this. Too extraverted.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I remember that it went exactly like this when I said I was ENFJ and you said I was ENTP...
Oh, and I thought the "it's illegal" had to do with Si and not Te.
Especially since Te is more interested in organization and structure, not authority.

It's still a kinda large step from considering inferior Si to suggesting aux Si.
Also kinda large step from considering tertiary Fe to dominant Fe.

Also, I don't share anything with the SFs. It's like traveling to an entirely new culture... it's weird to me.
I had an ESFJ friend who I'm extremely loyal to, but we're not alike. He's a lot more open and friendly than I am.
I tend to blend in with the NTs quite well if I so want to (tho I naturally blend in amongst the NFs).
A woman who knew quite a lot of INTPs called me an INTP troll 
I actually don't think anyone has called me a sensor except my ex when she was arguing with me.

I find that the FJs always seem to be like "what you see is what you get", but I've never been that open. I sometimes make myself seem open, but it's usually to achieve a secret agenda.

It's possibly quite rude, but there's a girl that follows me around and I'm quite sure she's in-love with me. I'm not like FJs who would be honest to such a person, but I see this situation as great for getting extra help in school because I can ask her if I'm unsure about stuff and I know she'll try to respond. I also like it because I'm in a superior position, since I'm aware of her agenda, but she doesn't know mine. It makes me feel secure.

I could check around in more groups, but thus far I only feel comfortable in the INFP group. I don't even need to make agendas in there.

PS. I create "rational" agendas because they help me feel secure.

As a side note, since you like to bring enneagrams into this.
I'm sure I am 6w5 so/sp
That makes me really focused at people, yet really focused at security.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> had the same issue with the ENFJ one. By that I mean that they are open, so everyone can see the content and that makes me uncomfortable just that


You should be open to being an ENFJ who would rather spend more time around other types. Just because ENFJs turn you off in general and act differently very often does not mean you aren't one. It doesn't mean you are one either, of course. 

The thing with real-world examples is they are terrific for illustrating, but the functions are ultimately meant to be general and encapsulate a lot of ways certain cognitive patterns manifest in the world. So if you're an oddball, then it's just not going to be easy to fit you in with what any of the types often look like.



> sometimes make myself seem open, but it's usually to achieve a secret agenda.


If memory serves, you said something like this once. My response was that INFJs are one type I can easily see doing something like this. But so could other types, probably.



I'm going ahead and saying that it's still possible you use Fi a lot and are an NFP. Because I don't have all the data. It is not necessarily true in my eyes that if you have zero interest in activism or even that you require a personal touch that you aren't NFP.

Because after all, if LeaT can use Fi and I can use Si prominently, when Si is supposedly last of the shadow functions for INFJ, I don't think these things can be ruled out.

Your needing a personal touch does, along with many other things you say, point to your being a heavy Fe-user _depending on what you mean by personal_. I think you seem to reason about your relationship with people a lot, based on pretty objective things, namely Si-Fe. That does not exclude that there was Fi behind your decision to reason about these people in this way.

I don't force types on people, but what I'm going to say is so far, I haven't seen (and that could be just that this thread is so long) a really good argument against ESFJ for you, and some good ones for.

I'm willing to say that if you think you use both Fi and Fe, that any type with Ne, Si and Fe or Fi fairly prominently featured is not something I'd immediately object to. 

However, just be sure not to object to Fe on the basis that it is objective. It reasons _about_ the objective, but using non-logical leaps.

It so turns out that a lot of INFP types will actually use Fe quite a bit. After all, they can often read people, which realistically _must_ use Fe, even if it also could use Fi. Nonetheless, what they turn to and use a lot is clearly Fi. 

I'll also add that Fe can be very _not _personal. And in some ways, just reason about the object using feelings in a detached way. There are of course many definitions of personal, and I'm not sure which are allowed and not here.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

> Your needing a personal touch does, along with many other things you say, point to your being a heavy Fe-user _depending on what you mean by personal_. I think you seem to reason about your relationship with people a lot, based on pretty objective things, namely Si-Fe. That does not exclude that there was Fi behind your decision to reason about these people in this way.


With personal touch, then I mean something that I am in the foundation of. I really don't like following in others' footsteps and I can be quite uncooperative if I don't feel like what I'm doing is "a part if me".



> However, just be sure not to object to Fe on the basis that it is objective. It reasons _about_ the objective, but using non-logical leaps.


I don't really object to that.
Thing is tho that the FJs I know put all the cards on the table and won't secretly have issues with people without telling them.
But mainly, FJs are so open in a weird way, especially EFJs. It's like their warmth is everywhere.



> I don't force types on people, but what I'm going to say is so far, I haven't seen (and that could be just that this thread is so long) a really good argument against ESFJ for you, and some good ones for.


Well, the same thing was said about ENTP.
Thing is that I just can't find the words or really the interest to argue for one type over the other. I lost the interest of arguing here after page 6.
In some of my conversations with people it was suggested that my problem coming up with supporting facts could be inferior Te.

EDIT:Just a short conversation from page 6 between @Amaterasu and @ltldslwmn 


> Hmm. I see Fi.
> It seems long ago that I thought you were an ENTP. Could you perhaps be an unhealthy ENFP? It's possible.





> I think I'm seeing Fi, too. Acer, I see a strong desire for integrity, as you just mentioned about someone else in another thread. But I'd wanted to mention that here. You go to significant lengths in deliberate effort to act consistently with your own values. That sounds Fi to me.





> Effort is important. What distinguishes a Fi dom/aux from a Fi tert/inf user is the effort they put in to achieve integrity. I want to be consistent too, but I don't act upon it consciously very often.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> In some of my conversations with people it was suggested that my problem coming up with supporting facts could be inferior Te.


I don't see that as quite the inferior function, so much as just a thing to be worked on; the inferior function is to me something that still prominently figures into the vibe your personality gives, and is something you especially turn to when circumstances render your dominant less functional.

As different as you are from me, I can't say you use Fe less than I do. 

Part of the point is that I don't think your Fi-use in particular seems to give you the unique personality flavor you possess so much as your Fe-use. You do have strong values, yes, and you do act based on feelings and are _possibly_ comfortable using Fi. 

I'm starting to feel like you're trying to let your type truly define you too much, rather than fitting yourself to a type; give yourself more credit


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Also, I've found that it's rather the EFPs that are the activists, ESFPs especially.


Yeah, to be honest, I really agree with you here. The INFPs I know don't really tend to be activists. They're extremely self and value focused, but not really activists. It's really not so much about the world so much as discovering _their_ place. 

I've seen my ENFP and ESFP acquaintances get much more interested in learning about ways to change aspects of the world. And I do agree with you that this isn't coincidence and doesn't seem to be quite a special case.

The personal touch thing actually is a bit reminiscent of INFP, I'll have to admit. I've found the _way_ you explain something to an INFP and how it relates back to them is much more relevant than with many other types. I think I even mentioned this to @LeaT recently.

Not saying you're an INFP though


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I remember that it went exactly like this when I said I was ENFJ and you said I was ENTP...


The reason why I didn't see ENFJ or even INFJ for you was because you lacked the Ni and Se. And there's still a big difference between a dominant and auxiliary judger.


> Oh, and I thought the "it's illegal" had to do with Si and not Te.
> Especially since Te is more interested in organization and structure, not authority.


Te is very much focused on authority, because authority is a typical example of a Te structure. It's an objective hierarchy. 



> It's still a kinda large step from considering inferior Si to suggesting aux Si.
> Also kinda large step from considering tertiary Fe to dominant Fe.


And? The only thing I was certain about when it came to you was that you were NeFe-ing. You're still NeFe-ing. I tried to look into the information you provided to me and ENTP seemed a better fit than ENFJ or INFJ. But I also very clearly remember that I told you that your Fe manipulation was very annoying and it made typing you so much harder. It's still very annoying in this thread (honestly, I am not even sure why I bother coming back to this bs).


> Also, I don't share anything with the SFs. It's like traveling to an entirely new culture... it's weird to me.
> I had an ESFJ friend who I'm extremely loyal to, but we're not alike. He's a lot more open and friendly than I am.


And do you realize that enneagram 6 is a fairly introverted enneagram? Why do you think Rim thinks he was an INFP for such a long time? Enneagram 6w5. Again, you focus too much on external behavior. You always want to compare and contrast the external. You do this so often and so easily you can't even see that you're doing it. This suggests strong cognitive extraversion. It's not how people act (and I don't know how many times I've said this, including others), _it's about how you think_. How many times do I have to repeat this? IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU FUCKING THINK. External behavior such as if people are friendly, extraverted or introverted, *it doesn't fucking matter.* NONE OF THAT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. STOP FOCUS ON HOW PEOPLE BEHAVE. It's about how you think. HOW YOU THINK. HOW YOU THINK. Am I making myself clear? Do you understand this now? Can you stop looking at how people behave and focus more on how they think? I am not trying to phrase myself this way to be rude, but this simple idea is so clearly and obviously escaping you to the point I don't know how to make you understand. Don't question it. Just accept it. This is exactly why trying to point you is pointless, because you don't even seem to understand the basic fundamentals of the Jungian functions such as it being about how people think and now how they behave. That, along with your steretoyping bs really drains my intellectual capacities.


> I tend to blend in with the NTs quite well if I so want to (tho I naturally blend in amongst the NFs).


And do you know what that means? Fe. Fi users don't tend to really try to blend or even have a desire to blend. 


> A woman who knew quite a lot of INTPs called me an INTP troll


Yeah, because INTPs among other Fe users are good at chameleoning. 



> I actually don't think anyone has called me a sensor except my ex when she was arguing with me.


And how many people actually understand what cognitive sensation means? Most don't. Not even the people residing on this forum.


> I find that the FJs always seem to be like "what you see is what you get", but I've never been that open. I sometimes make myself seem open, but it's usually to achieve a secret agenda.


Yeah, and it's your enneagram 6w5 causing that. Nothing more. Nothing less.


> It's possibly quite rude, but there's a girl that follows me around and I'm quite sure she's in-love with me. I'm not like FJs who would be honest to such a person, but I see this situation as great for getting extra help in school because I can ask her if I'm unsure about stuff and I know she'll try to respond. I also like it because I'm in a superior position, since I'm aware of her agenda, but she doesn't know mine. It makes me feel secure.


And the fact that you're actually quite aware of her "agenda" makes you alone less likely to be an INFP. Do you realize how oblivious INFPs can be to this stuff? INFPs can be good at reading people, but they usually don't try to look for hidden agendas unless their Te is goingshit.


> I could check around in more groups, but thus far I only feel comfortable in the INFP group. I don't even need to make agendas in there.


Ok. You don't need to make agendas in there. No one said you can't stop visit the INFPs just because you think more like an ESFJ dude. Again, such Fe reasoning.


> PS. I create "rational" agendas because they help me feel secure.


And you know what types that tend to focus on stability and security? Si types. Of course, this could as well be attributed to your enneagram, but I am just pointing that out. 



> As a side note, since you like to bring enneagrams into this.
> I'm sure I am 6w5 so/sp
> That makes me really focused at people, yet really focused at security.


And why don't you try to make sense of how your enneagram affects your overall behavior? I think you really fail to realize what impact enneagram has on how people behave. I'm a triple withdrawn type, 549. It means that I'm The Most Introverted Person in the World TM. Not because I'm a Ti dom (although that makes it worse), but because of my enneatype. It's the enneatype that makes me socially withdrawn, not my cognitive thinking. I have an ISTP friend who is quite the party lover. I was first confused that he wa truly an ISTP because he seemed so socially outgoing, but the more I got to know him, the more I realized that he's more interested in his internal world than the external. Just because he could socially outgoing and liking to party it did not make him a cognitive extravert. PLEASE GET THIS. No person is the same, and no person of the same type is the same. Does your sig no say that it's the differences that sets us apart? Yeah, people can be the same and different at the same time. Not every Swede is going to be the same, yet we're all Swedish. 

I'm done. Don't bother calling me back now.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

pandamiga said:


> ...Also, that is what annoys me about people ...you got angry at a dude who did nothing to you ...but to your dad? That's not a nice thing, in my opinion. I know you love your dad, but let him fight his own battles and if he needs help then yeah... help him... but I hate it when people don't keep their feelings to themselves. ...I mean, I am not judging you ...but the world is too unique to say that "justice should be served". ...I am not saying this has anything to do with functions ...just stating my crap/whatthefuck opinions.


Sorry, but I think emotional bonds and attachment transcend typological definition, and I think it is perfectly justified for anyone of any type to feel angry when their family is threatened.
I'm a Fi user, and if something of the sort happened, I would react extremely angrily.

Also, I was just thinking, but pandamiga, you talk like a Fe user. At least, this post makes me think so. 

Anyway, @Acerbusvenator, this is really interesting. You are a complex person to type.

I think the problem with trying to figure out Fe and Fi is in how similar they can appear sometimes. If you delve into their deeper aspects, their stereotypical behavior overlaps. Fe can be quite outright with its values, because it expects people to accept those just as it expected them. Fi can be quite open with feelings, because it expects other people to understand its value system. That turns the definitions of the functions upside-down.
And it kinda also means that many people here are possibly mistyped! Even the ones who supposedly aren't! Haha. Sometimes I wish I could talk to Jung and make him type me. For the best possible analysis


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

bearotter said:


> I'm starting to feel like you're trying to let your type truly define you too much, rather than fitting yourself to a type; give yourself more credit


I needed to see this sentence, thank you. I'm starting to do exactly what you said here!

On that note, if this helps anyone, introverted types personalize and internalize everything. Like I did here. This was addressed to Acer but I read it like it was addressed to me.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> I needed to see this sentence, thank you. I'm starting to do exactly what you said here!
> 
> On that note, if this helps anyone, introverted types personalize and internalize everything. Like I did here. This was addressed to Acer but I read it like it was addressed to me.


Well, it was directed at me, so I don't have an example in front of me 

But to be honest, there's 3 people that are more likely make me accept a type I haven't been thinking of.
Those 3 are @LiquidLight (because he's kinda awesome), @Amaterasu and @FacelessBeauty (both because they don't criticize every post I make, but more comment on the whole of what I've said... and because you 2 are awesome!)

People that I don't value the opinions of as much as those 3 are as likely to budge me as a tissue paper trying to budge a large rock. (unless the person start shouting )


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Well, it was directed at me, so I don't have an example in front of me
> 
> But to be honest, there's 3 people that are more likely make me accept a type I haven't been thinking of.
> Those 3 are @_LiquidLight_ (because he's kinda awesome), @_Amaterasu_ and @_FacelessBeauty_ (both because they don't criticize every post I make, but more comment on the whole of what I've said... and because you 2 are awesome!)
> ...


I'm touched. That's like telling me indirectly that my logic is right, and hell, do I love to be told that! 

In all seriousness though, I'm glad to be of help! I really hope we find your type in this thread.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

I do not claim to be as awesome as those three, but if you did think I criticize your posts most of the time, that would be a huge mistake.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> I do not claim to be as awesome as those three, but if you did think I criticize your posts most of the time, that would be a huge mistake.


Well, it's not really about that.
Those 3 are just people I highly respect.
@Julia Bell sometimes comes in with some highly educated posts as well, but I don't see them especially often. And for other factors as well then I don't count her as the 4th, so that list is really strict.

Doesn't mean that I won't consider what people say, I just tend to have an easier time reflecting (not "reflecting on", but reflecting like a mirror) what people say that are outside my "bubble" of people I highly trust.

Also, "criticizing" is a broad term and it's rather when people try to quote specific parts out of what I say. It feels manipulative and to a part offensive, since I then feel that the person has ignored my other arguments.

That's also why I had issues with the woman who just left me :crying: (jk, talking about LeaT)
She would just quote the weak links in my posts and see the other parts as irrelevant (that being because they argue against what she thinks) and that behavior makes me extremely frustrated and it makes me feel disrespected and patronized.

If you look at how @Amaterasu and @FacelessBeauty usually quote, they quote the whole post and then gives a summary of what they think.
You can also quite much see that I'm usually quite kind when I respond to someone who has been quoting my entire posts and when I do like this and just mention people. However, at the times when people have just cut my posts into pieces I tend to act more grumpy and "to the point".

I think page 13 is a good example. ltldslwmn quoted my entire post I replied in a quite friendly tone. The LeaT comes in a just quotes 2 small pieces of that text and the response she gets is hostile. You can also see after your post there @bearotter that I'm quite much on my guard, tho I'm not hostile since you didn't really criticize so much of what I said, or directly.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> You can also see after your post there @_bearotter_ that I'm quite much on my guard, tho I'm not hostile since you didn't really criticize so much of what I said, or directly.


I'm not sure I understand: what about my words puts you on your guard? Is it just that I refer to specific lines? You have to remember I'm a heavy Ni-user, so I'm not really trying to quote lines to see how they match principles so much as that I find them broadly representative of what is making it hard to type you.

And I really don't care for criticizing on matters like this. If you notice, I don't really seem to conclude on a type for you so much as I like to develop a picture. I think different people mean different things when they assign a type to someone.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

@_Acerbusvenator_ -- Haha, thanks, I guess. ^_^ Epic accent, by the way. 

I wish I could come out with something epic to say to you, but loops are most certainly not an area I can give you any advice on. Also, after reading through this whole thread, I haven't been able to come to any real conclusions. Aside from the discussion about loops, there has been more of a focus upon actions and behavior, which can give me a list of things that are possible for you, but in the end it's just going to be inconclusive (if you're curious, I have been leaning towards xFxJ for you, but I could be totally off the mark).

I think if you filled out Spades' questionnaire, which I find to be the most accurate, I and other people would be able to give you better suggestions. 

As for questions about Fe and Fi, I was just thinking about this and made a thread about it (and LiquidLight, of course, offers some wisdom there): http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/118194-question-about-feeling.html

Well, anyways, would you please fill out the Spades questionnaire? I'm really curious now. ^_^


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Here's the questionnaire @Julia Bell

0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.

*I'm going to have a test at uni on Friday, so I'm a bit stressed about that **(my constant procrastinating doesn't make it better)**.
I've been diagnosed with ADHD, tho it was by a child psychiatrist when I was 17 and a few months after I got PTSD.
Well, I've had/got PTSD.
I'm a 20 year old male from Sweden.
My current state of mind is kinda phased out/tire**d and emotional*

1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.

*The photo I got was: All sizes | Gang | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
My first impression of it was infinity, a corridor to endlessness. I got caught up in the feeling that he was walking towards the darkness of infinity - an abyss of sort. I can't really shake that depressing feeling. I feel as if I am that guy, walking towards the darkness like as if I was in a trance. I don't feel any hope when I see this picture, it's more like I'm seeing an end. Walking from the bright and colorful, into they gray and dark, as if I'm preparing to meet my end.*
*(Sorry, I'm a bit emotional right now)*

2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?

*It would depend extremely on my mood. If I was happy, I'd be considering solutions such as calling a cab and then I might ask if someone in the car can fix it. If I'm tired **(it makes me really grumpy)** I'd give a comment like "well this is great" **(in a way that you can't really tell if I'm sarcastic or not)**and then I might question the person who the car belongs to if they didn't check the car to make sure these kinds of things wouldn't happen **(not like I would do those things myself, but I do that to discharge negative energy)**.*

3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?

*I might stick around myself depending on if the band is gonna be there, lol. Other than that I don't really care much if the driver wants to be there or not. I might just take a midnight stroll if I don't want to be there (I usually do that when my family take me to parties, I'll go out in the middle of the night and just take in the calmness of the midnight air and the beauty of the starts in the sky)*

4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?

*Well, after being friend to an INTP for 3 years I've learned to deal with it. I'd either ignore it because I won't jeopardize the friendship or I will make a more diplomatic comment where I try to show the other side of the argument if they get pushy.*
*I might feel offended, but I'd rather just tell the friend how I see it and try to keep it non-personal so that it won't hurt our friendship. I would most likely not change my belief tho, even if the friend came with better arguments.*

5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?

*Depends, if I saw a military guy save some civilians with my own eyes I wouldn't stop disliking military, I might just be more optimistic to that guy, even tho I wouldn't show it because he's still a murderer and a scavenger in my eyes.*
*If someone tells me that my habits are unhealthy, I'd reply "I know "*
*It takes a lot to change my mind, when I've made made my opinion. There's always ways to go around things... you can even go around facts.*
*I won't openly accept something new tho, I'd keep it silent and then change it and usually pretend that it was obvious to me all along.*

6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?

*Now this is one of those questions I hate because it's so personal and it's not especially specific.

I value loyalty, because without a foundation of trust, nothing can be built between people.
I value integrity, because that tells me that the person isn't just one it a crowd. I dislike clones of society.

One of my other values is that you shouldn't do anyone harm.
Another one is that I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

All those values have developed with time and haven't really had a starting point. None of them can change.*

7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? 

*I see myself as a man of integrity, so I see that as something that distinguishes me from everyone else.
A lot of people budge under pressure, I only grow stronger and more determined because then I know I'm something that people hate - an individual.*

b) If you could change one thing about you personality, what would it be? Why?

*I've written this answer so many times, I don't think there is anything I'd like to change about my personality anymore. The only thing that I want is to have more courage so that I won't let myself be talked down on.*

8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?

*I usually say that I ignore them, but after the discussion I had a little bit earlier in this thread then I think that I would follow it blindly where ever it took me.
I usually get my gut feelings around people, I understand their intentions... it's like it is in the way they move, the way they look at you. I can basically smell their intentions. I'm usually right.
I also get the hunches about things I like and don't like. You could for example just name a movie title and genre and I know if I'll like it or not, without having read anything about it. Even there I'm right most of the time **(like 99% of the times)**.*

9. a) What activities energize you most? 

*I get energized by games, movies and midnight walks.*

b) What activities drain you most? Why?

*Parties, crowded areas and generally in places where I feel like I'm in an environment where I can't really move freely. It makes my restless - like something bad will happen. I want to be able to keep my eye on the people around me and track their conversations so I am aware if something will go down.*

10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?

*I don't really, especially not around friends.
Tho I do tend to be more diplomatic when someone I like or fear wants me to be nice.*
*I don't see why I should pretend to be someone I'm not. If they become friends with my persona they will become disappointed when I take it down.

This is one of the reasons why I don't get along so well with teenagers, they want white lies and I'm not big with them.
I once had an interesting discussion tho with a woman when I somehow could connect to her via her 5 year old son. Really interesting conversation.
I get along easier with people who are mature.
I've been told I'm really mature and wise for my age.*


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I went through some of the posts on the first page.
I've written what I think bellow, but I don't want you to read it before you've answered my questionnaire. :wink:
That way you'll be more open to possibilities. :happy:


* *




I read the answers from meltedsorbet, LiquidLight and NovaStar and I agree more with how they define Fi than Fe.

I think NovaStar's definitions


> Fi - "Much of their decisions are based on how they themselves, or others in relation to them personally, feel in contrast to considering how "the big picture" is affected (such as groups of people.) Fi is generally associated with the ability to gain an implicit sense of the subjective 'distance' between two people, and make judgments based off of said thing."
> 
> Fe - "They enjoy a loose atmosphere where anything goes, where people don't have to watch too carefully what they say for fear of offending others. This means these types try not to be too thin-skinned, taking jokes with a grain of salt. However, they are very conscious of the fact that the way something is said is very important to how it will be received, so they tend to add emphasis, embellishments, and exaggerations here and there to keep people engaged."


Made me lean more towards Fi than Fe, tho I didn't really understand what I meant.

I think that I'm leaning more towards Fi as well based on what LL said.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

All right, @_Acerbusvenator_. I think you've got no reason to doubt INFP. I think I'm seeing too much Fi in your questionnaire answers to be anything else but a Fi-dom. Also, not just in your questionnaire, but the way you have been reasoning with people on this thread seems to hint at some sort of dominant Ji function. ^_^ What is odd is I expected to see more Intuition, but I didn't. And that could just be because for you it would be in the aux position. I will say that your answer to question number 1, though, did seem to point to a preference towards some sort of Intution: 



> *My first impression of it was infinity, a corridor to endlessness. I got caught up in the feeling that he was walking towards the darkness of infinity - an abyss of sort. I can't really shake that depressing feeling. I feel as if I am that guy, walking towards the darkness like as if I was in a trance. I don't feel any hope when I see this picture, it's more like I'm seeing an end. Walking from the bright and colorful, into they gray and dark, as if I'm preparing to meet my end.
> *


You'd expect the Intuition to be more like Ne if we're going by Fi-Ne-Si-Te. I think I see a bit of Ni here, to be honest. However, I do recall learning that Jung believed that the auxiliary function might take on the attitude of the dominant. So being more Fi-Ni, or Fi-Nx wouldn't be too unusual. ^_^ 

There's my two cents.


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