# Model B = Model A worked out to completion?



## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

I found these threads:

Hitta's final model B thread

Model B of Socionics | Missing the Point

"Model B was a model created by Bukalov in the early 90's that I feel is FAR superior to model A. It balances everything out and makes things much more fluid and cohesive."

Long-range and Short-range functions, I - Articles - Typosophy

Socionics - the16types.info - plus/minus by Victor "El Diablo" Gulenko

ILI: +Ni, -Te, +Si, -Fe, -Se, +Fi, -Ne, +Ti (model A)

I am convinced that -Ne (black humor) and +Ti (golden section instead of symmetry, strict rules for the nearest environment) are "closer" to me than +Ne and -Ti. But what does that mean?

1) I don't use +Ne and -Ti at all.

2) Model A is incomplete. 

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What are your thoughts? 

Recognizable functions are by definition conscious functions, right?

Is model B correct?

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LII with +Te as Leading function.

LIE with +Te as Ignoring function.

IEE with +Ne as Ignoring function.

These correspond with my observations.


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## Wunderkind (Oct 26, 2014)

Here are the conclusions that I can draw from your information:

1) Your uncle must have played Trivial Pursuit more than once.

2) There's something weird about the remote control or its surrounding environment.

3) Your uncle does not like to waste money on cars.

So where is the connection to socionics?


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Wunderkind said:


> Here are the conclusions that I can draw from your information:
> 
> 1) Your uncle must have played Trivial Pursuit more than once.
> 
> ...



This thread is about model B.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

LIE and ILI are a bit aggressive (or hot-tempered), but we don't "enjoy" confrontation like LSI and SLE. Only a conscious and weak -Se explains this behavior.

So why aren't IEE and EII aggressive too? Because their -Se is blocked with a logical function instead of an ethical function.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm not sure how accurate this description is but in Hitta's Model B thread there is a comparison of +Ne/-Ni vs -Ne/+Ni:

_+Ne/-Ni (Alpha,Beta)
The -Ni portion of the function feels separate, unique; the one green jelly bean in a can full of red ones. 
The +Ne portion tends to view things as not having lived up to their potential. +Ne always wants more. It values the absurd and the abnormal; whether it be spiritually, scientifically, etc, +Ne always wants to find something more interesting than it already knew. The downside of this is the alien complex, when things aren't going their way, they feel as if they are flawed and scarred. 

-Ne/+Ni (Gamma,Delta)
The +Ni portion feels connected, integrated, a person of the network. A red jelly bean in a can full of red ones. The -Ne portion tends to view things as being perfect as they are, which often leaves the individual with this as a valued function as having a loyalty complex. Desires to keep things normalized, running smoothly._

Going by that I'd definitely be +Ne/-Ni (alpha/beta)


In the Model B of Socionics thread, they say this about the F and T functions:

_-Ti/+Te (Alpha,Delta) -Ti is reducing while +Te is expanding. -Ti has a very hard time accepting practical solutions because it is always splitting the atom. *-Ti is analytical logic, trying to constantly find that perfect answer to the equation.* +Te is expanding therefore +Te gives precedent to any sort of overt detail information from the external world. This can give rise to obsessive compulsive behaviors as the *+Te sees everything as being interlinked and worth being investigated. *_

_+Ti/-Te (Beta, Gamma) +Ti is expanding, this gives rises to categorical/practical thinking. It tends to look at all things as having viable obvious solutions. -Te is reducing therefore it creates tighter and tighter boundaries to pull information from the outside world. This can create a rather critical mindset, the individual may cut off options. At the same time though, their practical framework may allow them to react to certain things accordingly. _

I'm definitely more -Ti/+Te, particularly resonating with the bolded above. I think most things have solutions that are viable but I don't think they're necessarily obvious. I tend to see more and more to explore rather than creating tighter boundaries and cutting off options.

_
+Fi/-Fe (Alpha, Delta) +Fi is expanding. This creates a sort of universalizing ethics. These people try to accept everyone for what they are without making judgments, because they kind of want to fit everything. This creates a kind of motherly kindness in these people. At the same time though (because of -Fe), these people hate playing favorites. They often try to remain neutral. They may scorn someone for not thinking of the whole. _

_-Fi/+Fe(Beta, Gamma) -Fi is reducing, this creates a sort of romantic/depressive nature. These people have very defined likes and dislikes. As a result they often have high highs... and low lows. They can get into a relationship and it feel as if its the best thing in the world... and then a few days later feel like all of the energy is gone. As a result these people use +Fe which is always expanding where it is, what its doing, why its doing what its doing(don't confuse this with being an outgoing person because its not the same thing) trying to find that perfected vision internally._

This one is less a little less clear for me but I think I favor +Fi/-Fe, except that I do tend to make alot of judgements towards people that I internalize and try to avoid expressing for the sake of harmony. That said I do strive to find the good in people in spite of their negative attributes . Regarding relationships, I can have changeable feelings towards a person as described in -Fi/+Fe but I don't think it's nearly as extreme as what's described. 

The third article was TL, DR.

The last article I liked as it breaks it down by quadra. I've been torn between alpha and delta for a long time now. I think based on function signs I lean towards alpha except that I do relate somewhat to -Si and -Ne as well as +Si and +Ne. I've bolded what's particularly pertinent to me in the Si and Ne. 

For alphas:
+Si







= *positive feelings of comfort.* *They cannot effectively realize their potential if their lifestyle is full of hardships*. *Style of activity is characterized by relaxation, freedom, by conveniences.* *Relations with the external environment, where their activities unfold, must be friendly and pleasant.* Their groups are always comfortable, relaxed as if at home, and never rough or eccentric.

+Ne







= *promising ideas*. In this quadra, which can be attributed the element of air, there are *frequent talks about the future, the unexplored and unknown possibilities. They may seem to be incorrigible dreamers. And this is so: they look out further than anyone, beyond the horizon, they put forward "crazy" theories and discuss them with pleasure.* Some of these theories, however, are destined to have long lives, so long that they will outlast their creators.

For Delta:
-Si







= * minmization of discomfort.* *They value good working conditions* and are reluctant to change their routines. This element *excludes harmful influences from external environment.* This quadra cannot work during emergencies. They *highly value convenience, comfort* at their workplace, and good coordination at work.

-Ne







= *the unusual, alternative and bizarre*. Despite its groundedness, this quadra *respects unusual and talented people who offer creative alternative possibilities.* *The spread of new information is not impeded, no matter how avant-garde it might be*. In Delta groups, there occur periodic flashes of sensationalism and spikes of interest centered around original people who put forward alternative ideas of development.

I think I lean ever so slightly here towards +Si and +Ne but identify with -Si and -Ne as well.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> +Ne
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ILE in a nutshell  Adam Savage, Jon Stewart...




> -Ne
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Robin Williams, Craig Ferguson...


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## Wunderkind (Oct 26, 2014)

> I am convinced that -Ne and +Ti are "closer" to me than +Ne and -Ti. But what does that mean?


That's how it's supposed to be.
ILI (model A): +Ni, -Te, +Si, -Fe, -Se, +Fi, -Ne, +Ti
ILI (model B): +Ni/*-Ne*, -Te/*+Ti*, +Si/-Se, -Fe/+Fi, -Se/+Si, +Fi/-Fe, -Ne/+Ni, +Ti/-Te

According to Model A, you don't use +Ne and -Ti at all. Model B is an extension to Model A. It adds a bit of Yin/Yang-thinking to it by saying "if you use Ni in expanding style, you also use Ne in reducing style". Expanding in terms of maximization of good stuff, reducing in terms of minimization of bad stuff. That explains why so many people struggle between ILI - Ni-Te - and LII - Ti-Ne - when it comes to typing themselves. So now, you can look at the foresign and decide in what manner you actually use your letters.

Although it was very sloppy, I liked woofwoofl's summary. So I reworked it by filling in the gaps and doing some corrections to fit it more to the definitions. Consider this as a translation from abstract terms to normal language.

+ = maximization of good stuff, long range
- = minimization of bad stuff, short range

+Ne -> hunt for new possibilies
-Ne -> keep stuff on track

+Ni -> forecasting changes
-Ni -> protect from random negative events

+Se -> seek for power and strength
-Se -> keep power, remove weakness

+Si -> proactively create good experiences
-Si -> eliminate physical discomfort, maintain equillibrium of health

+Fe -> share positive emotions
-Fe -> keep the peace

+Fi -> make friends
-Fi -> banish enemies

+Te -> maximize raw quantity of resources, hoard
-Te -> maximize usage of limited resources, budget

+Ti -> boldly theorize
-Ti -> hunt down logical fallacies



> What are your thoughts?


I think you should start digesting information instead of barfing it on the table. "Habe den Mut, dich deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen."


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Wunderkind said:


> That's how it's supposed to be.
> ILI (model A): +Ni, -Te, +Si, -Fe, -Se, +Fi, -Ne, +Ti
> ILI (model B): +Ni/*-Ne*, -Te/*+Ti*, +Si/-Se, -Fe/+Fi, -Se/+Si, +Fi/-Fe, -Ne/+Ni, +Ti/-Te
> 
> ...


Pointless, you add nothing to this discussion.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

Wunderkind said:


> + = maximization of good stuff, long range
> - = minimization of bad stuff, short range


I thought -functions were more long range and +functions more short range. 

*+Ne -> hunt for new possibilies*
-Ne -> keep stuff on track

Both apply to me but +Ne appeals more.

+Ni -> forecasting changes
*-Ni -> protect from random negative events*

Again both apply but I put a greater priority on -Ni

+Se -> seek for power and strength
-Se -> keep power, remove weakness

How should I know? Se is my PoLR. 

+Si -> proactively create good experiences
*-Si -> eliminate physical discomfort, maintain equillibrium of health*

I do -Si far more easily but +Si sounds more appealing- not always sure how to go about it.

+Fe -> share positive emotions
*-Fe -> keep the peace*

Again more likely to do -Fe. I'd like to be able to share positive emotions sometimes not always comfortable doing so.

+Fi -> make friends
-Fi -> banish enemies

Don't know. I don't make friends that easily. I don't really have enemies. I have people that make me feel uncomfortable for various reasons- they aren't really an enemy but they are someone I prefer to avoid if I can. 

+Te -> maximize raw quantity of resources, hoard
-Te -> maximize usage of limited resources, budget

I don't know.
*
+Ti -> boldly theorize*
-Ti -> hunt down logical fallacies

I think I identify with +Ti more. I don't really hunt down logical fallacies but sometimes they just pop out at me and I can't help but take notice.




Tellus said:


> Pointless, you add nothing to this discussion.


Care to explain why?


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> "_Pointless, you add nothing to this discussion."_
> 
> Care to explain why?


Oversimplifications won't help anyone.

*"+Ti -> boldly theorize" Really?*

+Ti = organizational logic. They have a developed sense of duty, citizenship, loyalty to the elected project. It is therefore the most disciplined and organized quadra that knows how to quickly rally its forces in the event of imminent danger or emergency situations.

Abstract logic (Ti)

+ (short range)

A) the estimation of the consistency (expediency) of behavior and judgments of concrete person. 
B) comparison, analysis, generalization, the systematization of any objective information, to the easily yielding practical checking: the thorough, concrete and detailed study of cause-effect connections, the construction of inductions (search for objective in the subjective); - the sequential account of its own judgments, inductive conclusions; - the composition of strict laws, standards, rules, instructions for the hierarchic structure of the nearest environment. 
C) the valid distribution of rights and responsibilities, the assignment of equal possibilities for the nearest environment; - the comparison of theories, systems and classifications according to the rule of the selection of the best (actually applied and worker) version: the determination of theoretical prerequisites, the development of structure and regularities, the determination of truth for organizing the practical matters. 
D) tendency toward the "golden section".


*"-Ne -> keep stuff on track" Again, really?*

-Ne = the unusual, alternative and bizarre. Despite its groundedness, this quadra respects unusual and talented people who offer creative alternative possibilities. The spread of new information is not impeded, no matter how avant-garde it might be. In Delta groups, there occur periodic flashes of sensationalism and spikes of interest centered around original people who put forward alternative ideas of development.

Intuition of the possibilities (Ne)

- (long range)

01) estimation and the skill to recognize the negative potential qualities of people, their possibility. 
02) the multiplan perception of peace, man. 
03) the skill to see the absence of essence, to evaluate the lack of promise of potential possibilities, ideas and undertakings. 
04) search and the vision of alternatives. 
05) the paradoxicalness of thinking. 
06) the dimensionality of thinking, erection as the chief concern of the forgotten old (ordinary), abstract theoretization. 
07) black humor, disbelief. 
08 ) the suppression of radical conversions. 
09) sensation.

etc etc


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

EM Type, Model B, and other non-mainstream Socionics

lecter: 
[...] taciturn/narrator cycles are what you get when you take Model B to it's logical conclusion. i think one of the problems you're hitting in trying to learn about Model B is that it's quite a vacuous theory. it doesn't claim a lot. it's only claim is the one that is formalized in taciturn/narrator cycles, namely that Illusionaries can be seen as sharing their Accepting function, whereas Semi-Duals can be seen as sharing their Creating function, much in the same way as would otherwise be conceived as being the case between respectively Comparatives and Look-a-Likes. there are a number of other implications:

- Illusionaries share their Accepting functions and are thus half identicals
- Semi-Duals share their Creating functions and are thus half identicals
- taciturn/narrator functions in much the same way as static/dynamic does; it can be argued to be just as strong of impact
- the function shared between Illusionaries or Semi-Duals differs in i/e between types, so to designate the function, one can use taciturn/narrator; for example, the function shared between ESTj and INTj is Accepting Taciturn Logic (Acc Tt); think of them as new functions: Tt, Nt, St, Ft, Tn, Nn, Sn, Fn
- shared values between adjacent quadras can be attributed to both the Irrational function axis and the Rational function axis: Alpha and Delta share both Ne/Si values and Tt/Fn values; Alpha and Beta share both Se/Ni values and Tn/Ft values, etc.
- the cycles can be thought of as meaningful; they arrive by simply putting all types with shared functions together; i find them useful to conceptualize the relations between types:

ESTj - acc Tt - INTj - cre Nt - ENFj - acc Ft - ISFj - cre St - ESTj (taciturn/negativist/rational)
ESFj - cre Sn - ISTj - acc Tn - ENTj - cre Nn - INFj - acc Fn - ESFj (narrator/positivist/rational)
ISTp - cre Tt - ENTp - acc Nt - INFp - cre Ft - ESFp - acc St - ISTp (taciturn/positivist/irrational)
ISFp - acc Sn - ESTp - cre Tn - INTp - acc Nn - ENFp - cre Fn - ISFp (narrator/negativist/irrational)

- there are times you can find semi-duality between types you wouldn't expect to find it between; for example, INTj and INFj dualize between each others' Tt and Fn function; from personal experience i find this to be the strongest indication that the cycles are real

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lecter: "I think one of the problems you're hitting in trying to learn about Model B is that it's quite a vacuous theory"

There is no doubt about that... nevertheless, model B seems more accurate. For example: ILI with +Fi as Mobilizing function (model A)... really?

Super Id (Valued, Weak, Unconscious): This is the unconscious motivator function. This is what the person wants to attain underneath, this functions represents completion of the Ego function, the full perspective. 

+Fi = positive, warm relationships. Psychological factors play a vital role for them. Without recognition of ethical values such as individuality and the uniqueness of others, *religion and spirituality*, non-interference in others lives, *concrete humanism*, etc., the stability they strongly desire is hardly possible.


Ethics of the relations (Fi)

+ (short range)

A) the moral and moral estimation of behavior of individual person, his judgments. 
B) the skill to understand, to estimate interrelations between themselves and by another person. 
C) the rules of behavior, accepted in the relations between the concrete people. 
D) the emotional estimation of its relation - sympathy, antipathy, confidence, admiration and so forth, etc. - to another person, his open expression. 
E) manipulation on relations with the concrete person, the skill to erect relations on any psychological distance, to create and to impose its standards of behavior. 
F) *tendency toward the humanist ideals* - philanthropy, mercy, good, pity, warm contact, friendship and so forth, etc. 
G) tendency toward the mutual confidence, a feeling of debt, responsibility with respect to the individual people. 
H) generally - the attitude of close people, ethical interaction with the familiar people, the morals of the connect together people.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Socionics - the16types.info - Signs of Functions (+/-)

*Quality *
"+" sign - "positive", competence in the positive region of properties and incompetence in the negative region;

"−" sign - withdrawal from the "negative", from negative properties towards positive properties, competence in both positive and negative regions;


*Scale
*"+" sign - locality, the "big plan", specifics, itemization within the sphere of the function;

"−" sign - globality, "the general plan," universality of the function;


*Direction
*"+" sign - the orientation into the sphere of responsibility of the function (interest in protection of "own sphere");

"−" sign - the orientation outside of the sphere of responsibility of the function (influence, "pressure" on the other "localities");


*Distance
*"+" sign - "close" psychological distance;

"−" sign - "far" psychological distance.


"A. V. Bukalov, speaking at one of the Socionics conferences, and agreeing with the proposed by V. V. Gulenko arrangement of signs of mental functions in the superblock of mental model of TIMs, has commented, however, that the signs of functions in the vital ring should be, in his view, opposite to the signs of the corresponding functions of the mental ring, and should coincide with the signs of functions of the dual TIM. A. V. Bukalov did not forward an explanation of his concept."


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http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/dlja-novichkov/model
http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/...unkcii-v-blokah-dva-poljusa-aspektnoj-leksiki


Sensing of forms (-Si): harmony, aesthetics, beauty

Sensing of perceptions (+Si): cosiness, comfort, pleasant sensations

Material space (-Se): strength, power, control

Psychological (virtual) space (+Se): profit, benefit, gain

Intuition of Time (-Ni): destiny, prevision, fatefulness

Dynamics of actions (+Ni): topicality, timeliness, tendencies

Ethical intuition (-Ne): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight

Object intuition (+Ne): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness

Logic of learning (-Ti): system, regularity

Logic of management (+Ti): right, rule

Logic of processes (-Te): processes, technologies

Logic of objects (+Te): things, objects

Territorial ethics (-Fi): influence, rapprochement, repulsion

Ethics of understanding (+Fi): sympathy, affection, benevolent relation

Emotions of sensations (-Fe): emotional force, energy boiling, emotions passed over through 
tactile, taste or other sensor vocabulary (sour expression, sugary voice, he makes me sick...)

Emotions of events (+Fe): play of feelings, absence of sensory component in vocabulary


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

ILE: *+Ne*, -Ti, +Se, -Fi, -Si, +Fe, *-Ni*, +Te

IEI: *-Ni*, +Fe, -Si, +Te, +Se, -Ti, *+Ne*, -Fi 

*Ignoring function
*
The ignoring function is also called the observing, or limiting function. A person has very little use of this element, as it is the rival image of the base function, representing an antithetical approach to the same domain. It lies in the subconscious as a persistent annoyance to the individual. Therefore, he or she tries to ignore it. When lectured by another on the use of the ignoring function, the individual sees it as superfluous information, for he or she knows how to use the function well, but chooses not to use it in favor of his or her more convenient base function. Usually the base function creates byproducts relating to the ignoring function, but the way it describes such information is very carefully chosen to fit the view of the leading function. A person limits the expression of this element in public (in favor of the base function), but sometimes uses it extensively in private, and can call upon it when necessary. For example, an SEI usually defaults to his base function Si and shies from activities that are highly physical or cause conflict, but if inevitable confrontation arises, he is able to use his Se and become fiercely coercive and quarrelsome for short periods of time. The extreme avoidance of this function can make it appear weak at times. However, when engaged it does not cause the same kind of psychological stress as a weak function, instead creating a kind of boredom or malaise. 

Model A makes the famous ILE-IEI connection unexplainable, right?


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Shadow Logic's comment is moved from this thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/socionic...troverts-ne-ti-se-model-b-2.html#post13561602



Shadow Logic said:


> @Tellus, your analysis is flawed and falls apart because its fundamentally based on anecdotal evidence. Not only is it anecdotal but its personal, there's no point of analyzing if you're going to personalize it.


This is (pop) psychology! I think we have to "personalize" it, since it is quite difficult to experience someone else's inner thoughts and feelings, right? MBTI eight-function model is almost exclusively based on John Beebe's introspective exploration.



> What I mean is this, your claiming that you are a type that uses another types base function, then you claim that model A is flawed because it doesn't reflect what you perceive in yourself. Do you see the problem, instead of understanding the system you're trying to coerce the system to fit your personal sentiments. It clearly says that the ignoring function would be ignored but you claim that you don't ignore Me and use it quite a bit which is proof that its not your ignoring function. The function spots and their relation to the functions are rules of the system, if you don't relate then you have to fix your understanding or disregard the system as whole.


'Me'? You mean Ne, right? You have to differentiate between +Ne and -Ne. Well, how do I experience -Ne? "...as a persistent annoyance"? No! "Therefore, he or she tries to ignore it". No!

Ignoring function

The ignoring function is also called the observing, or limiting function. A person has very little use of this element, as it is the rival image of the base function, representing an antithetical approach to the same domain. It lies in the subconscious as a persistent annoyance to the individual. Therefore, he or she tries to ignore it. When lectured by another on the use of the ignoring function, the individual sees it as superfluous information, for he or she knows how to use the function well, but chooses not to use it in favor of his or her more convenient base function. Usually the base function creates byproducts relating to the ignoring function, but the way it describes such information is very carefully chosen to fit the view of the leading function. A person limits the expression of this element in public (in favor of the base function), but sometimes uses it extensively in private, and can call upon it when necessary. For example, an SEI usually defaults to his base function Si and shies from activities that are highly physical or cause conflict, but if inevitable confrontation arises, he is able to use his Se and become fiercely coercive and quarrelsome for short periods of time. The extreme avoidance of this function can make it appear weak at times. However, when engaged it does not cause the same kind of psychological stress as a weak function, instead creating a kind of boredom or malaise. 



> Instead of trying to coerce the system, you should adjust your understanding. Try to understand the differences between Ni and Ne, there's a reason why you don't focus on both, and to claim you do shows a fundamental mistake on your understanding. It shows that you can't tell apart the differences of Ne from Ni. Before trying to fix, first try to understand. You cant say something is flawed because it doesn't relate to you, if its flawed then there is a logical reason, anecdotal doesn't prove flaws, only logic can.


We do NOT focus on TWO base functions at the same time. That would be impossible! This is partly why I think each type has an 'A-side' and a 'B-side' (my other thread: ILI introverts... ILI extroverts...)



> So I'm going to ask, what do you think Ni and Ne is, and why do you think you use them?


I think we have to rely on the definitions that are provided by well-known socionists. 

+Ni keeps me focused and on topic. "First I must do A, then I will do B". It helps me to strategize via scenario thinking. +Ni always works in tandem with -Te (and they may be difficult to keep apart).

-Ne is constantly searching for absurd consequences to disprove (+Ti) my opponent's argument (a real person or an imaginary person... speech, writing or mute). N.B. I do NOT think -Ne is ILI's Ignoring function.

Read post # 15. (+Ne, -Ne)

Ni:

Introverted intuition (A.A.)

All processes take place in time; they have their roots in the past and their continuation in the future. Time is the correlation between events that follow each other. This perceptual element provides information about the sequence of events and people's deeds, about their cause and effect relationship, and about participants' attitudes towards this — that is, about people's feelings that these relationships engender. 

Such an individual perceives information from without as feelings about the future, past, and present. For example, a sense of hurriedness, calmness, or heatedness, a sense of timeliness or prematureness, a sense of proper or improper life rhythm, a sense of impending danger or safety, anticipation, fear of being late, a sense of seeing the future, anxiety about what lies ahead, and so forth. At any given moment of one's life one has such a sense of time. One cannot live outside of time or be indifferent toward it. Thus, a certain sense of time is an integral part of the individual's psychological state at any given moment. This perceptual element defines a person's ability or inability to forecast and plan for the future, evade all sorts of troubles, avoid taking wrong actions, and learn from past experience. 

When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses innate strategic abilities and is able to choose the most optimal moments for different activities: when to give battle, if necessary, and when to avoid battle, when that would be more appropriate. Interaction in time might be interpreted as the ability to avoid collisions with objects and hence avoid objects' reflection within oneself. 

Intuition of the time (Ni)

+ (short range)

A) vision and the sensation of the development of the approximate processes in the present real time and over nearest long term in connection with itself and nearest environment of people and objects - feeling of the course of time in the dynamics and its causality in the interrelation of the past, present and future. B) the estimation of opportuneness and urgency of the actions of present moment. C) the skill to see the trends of development in the time, to predict, to foresee the motion of the course of particular events, to see prospects - prognostication of the particular processes of future. D) the skill to govern its internal time. E) the tactical planning of the present and of immediate prospects - gradualness, evolution, arrangement. F) tendency toward the accordion, the balance, the proportionality, the consistency, the convergence in the external through the internal peace. G) fantastic imagination.

- (long range)

01) vision and the sensation of the development of the remote processes in the dynamics of time over the scale long term in connection with society and remote objects - dialectics of time. 02) the estimation of opportuneness and urgency of actions over the long term. 03) the skill to understand the interrelation of times, to see tendencies, to predict the motion of the course of events, to see prospects on the basis of the calculation of errors - tendency toward the predictions. 04) the realization of time as certain substance, up to its physical sensation. 05) the skill to govern the time of other people. 06) strategic planning - sharp shifts, revolution, jump in the time as consequence - anxiety, vague uneasiness, discrepancy, the duration of the moment of decisive actions. 07) a feeling of danger and ripening of crisis - insurance against troubles and danger. 08) mystical imagination, convergence.

+Ni = constraining their hot temper, these sociotypes prefer to advance gradually into the future, though they may sharply reject obsolete ideas, criticizing past mistakes. Advancing step by step, they generally believe in the linearity of development, i.e. according to their deep convictions, it is only necessary to remove obstacles, remnants of the past, and immediately this will open endless possibilities for growth. This quadra is not afraid of chaos and upheavals: they know how to conduct their work under conditions of change

-Ni = desire to bypass danger. They aim to avoid previously committed mistakes. In their groups, experience, skill, know-how, sophistication are highly valued. They feel confident in extreme situations. 

Intuition of Time (-Ni): destiny, prevision, fatefulness

Dynamics of actions (+Ni): topicality, timeliness, tendencies


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Entropic's comment is moved from this thread:

ILI introverts: +Ni, -Te, +Si... ILI extroverts: -Ne, +Ti, -Se... ??? (model B)



Entropic said:


> I don't. I don't see any merit and point to this theory and it's a good case of overthinking something imo, very simple. You do this a lot all the time. Personally, I would ask myself the question that if you actually experience such an innate conscious and ego preference for Ne and Ti, if that is not better explained to be your ego.


Why do you think Aleksandr Boukalov created model B in the 1990s? He obviously thought that model A was incomplete and/or incorrect. 

"... Ne and Ti..." It is very important to distinguish between +Ne/-Ti and -Ne/+Ti. For example, an ILI lawyer uses -Ne/+Ti when he argues a case, which results in a very aggressive (or assertive) style of communication. ILIs are (generally speaking) more interested in debating than mathematics. Why? N.B. Te is about efficiency, drive (goal-oriented) and facts --> i.e. practical logic. 


Ethical intuition (-Ne): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight (ILIs are very interested in Socionics, right? -Ne/+Ti)

Object intuition (+Ne): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness

Logic of learning (-Ti): system, regularity

Logic of management (+Ti): right, rule 


-Ne = the unusual, alternative and bizarre. Despite its groundedness, this quadra respects unusual and talented people who offer creative alternative possibilities. The spread of new information is not impeded, no matter how avant-garde it might be. In Delta groups, there occur periodic flashes of sensationalism and spikes of interest centered around original people who put forward alternative ideas of development.

+Ne = promising ideas. In this quadra, which can be attributed the element of air, there are frequent talks about the future, the unexplored and unknown possibilities. They may seem to be incorrigible dreamers. And this is so: they look out further than anyone, beyond the horizon, they put forward "crazy" theories and discuss them with pleasure. Some of these theories, however, are destined to have long lives, so long that they will outlast their creators.

-Ti = global structural logic. Systematic analysis is the instrument that they use in understanding the world. They are primarily interested in the universal laws that govern its workings. To that end, all traditions, conventions and restrictions are discarded. Everything is subjected to analysis, redefinition, analogies. Their main goal that they are pursuing is the creation of a comprehensive, breathtaking, singular picture of the world. The idea of unity, reasonableness and the fairness in all things permeates their vision completely.

+Ti = organizational logic. They have a developed sense of duty, citizenship, loyalty to the elected project. It is therefore the most disciplined and organized quadra that knows how to quickly rally its forces in the event of imminent danger or emergency situations.


Abstract logic (Ti)

+ (short range)

A) the estimation of the consistency (expediency) of behavior and judgments of concrete person. B) comparison, analysis, generalization, the systematization of any objective information, to the easily yielding practical checking: the thorough, concrete and detailed study of cause-effect connections, the construction of inductions (search for objective in the subjective); - the sequential account of its own judgments, inductive conclusions; - the composition of strict laws, standards, rules, instructions for the hierarchic structure of the nearest environment. C) the valid distribution of rights and responsibilities, the assignment of equal possibilities for the nearest environment; - the comparison of theories, systems and classifications according to the rule of the selection of the best (actually applied and worker) version: the determination of theoretical prerequisites, the development of structure and regularities, the determination of truth for organizing the practical matters. D) tendency toward the "golden section".

- (long range)

01) the estimation of the consistency (consistency) of behavior and judgments of people as generalities. 02) comparison, analysis, generalization, the systematization of any objective information, which is easily yielded for the formation into the generalized abstract theory: the thorough, concrete and detailed study of cause-effect connections, the construction of inductions. 03) the sequential account of popular public theoretical judgments, inductive conclusions. 04) the composition of strict laws, standards, rules, instructions for the hierarchy of society. 05) the valid distribution of rights and responsibilities, the assignment of equal possibilities for all people. 06) the comparison of theories, systems, classifications according to the logic of construction and existence of the same: the definition of theoretical prerequisites, the development of structure and regularities, the definition of truth for the very fact of the possibility of existence of such theories, systems and classifications as universal and scientific. 07) tendency toward the symmetry.


Intuition of the possibilities (Ne)

+ (short range)

A) estimation and the skill to recognize the positive potential qualities of individual person, his possibility. B) estimation and the skill to recognize prospect, potential possibilities of the concrete oveshchestvlennykh ideas and undertakings. C) the ability to see essence and principles of the concrete oveshchestvlennykh ideas and theories, the vision of their variability and the skill to make optimum selection. D) aim to the novelty, the hypothetical nature, the originality, the unusualness. E) adaptability to the faith and the idealism. F) the spontaneity of thinking. G) tendency toward the radical conversions. H) everyday insight.

- (long range)

01) estimation and the skill to recognize the negative potential qualities of people, their possibility. 02) the multiplan perception of peace, man. 03) the skill to see the absence of essence, to evaluate the lack of promise of potential possibilities, ideas and undertakings. 04) search and the vision of alternatives. 05) the paradoxicalness of thinking. 06) the dimensionality of thinking, erection as the chief concern of the forgotten old (ordinary), abstract theoretization. 07) black humor, disbelief. 08 ) the suppression of radical conversions. 09) sensation.



> Augusta placed Ne and Ti in the id block for a reason because they would not be conscious processes. I experience Fi more consciously than I have ever experienced Ti and Ne is something I have been unable to wrap my head around ever since I began to realize what Ne really is. It doesn't matter how many descriptions I read but I cannot consciously grasp how it is felt like in an actual experiential way. Even Fe makes more sense in this regard than Ne does.


How do I experience -Ne/+Ti? -Ne is constantly searching for absurd consequences to disprove (+Ti) my opponent's argument (a real person or an imaginary person... speech, writing or mute). 

I like Dario Nardi's description, which corresponds with my experience.

*Ne types*

Often show a “Christmas Tree” pattern.

Often experience creative highs.

Provide fast, creative responses (sometimes too creative)

Find it difficult to get “in the zone,” and can do so only after practicing and internalizing an activity over weeks, months, or years.

Use regions that support imagination.

*A “Christmas Tree” pattern is one in which the neocortex is active all over, each region is of high amplitude and out-of-sync with others. This pattern indicates cross-contextual thinking. This pattern is also very energy intensive, and may produce distractions and contradictions.
*
*Fp2 Process Manager: Focus on process, either step-by-step for tasks, or open ended creative brainstorming, or both. *



> "Consider all intuitive types. Which ones are most 'SLE-like' when it comes to -Se (aggressiveness...)? LIE and ILI, no doubt. Try to explain this with model A."
> 
> And this also only really applies to LIE and not so much ILI, imo. If anything, ILI is often confused with IEI, EII and LII, not SLE. I have yet to ever come across an ILI I think look like an SLE lol. Doesn't even compute in my head.
> 
> I say that as someone who happened to be an ILI-D in Gulenko's subtype system, meaning I have a more innate preference for Se and Ne in that kind of sense. I don't look like an SLE and I have yet to ever see someone suggested that as a type for me. If anything, I probably look more like an ESI or EII.


Socionics - the16types.info - plus/minus by Victor "El Diablo" Gulenko

Gamma:

+Ni = *constraining their hot temper*, these sociotypes prefer to advance gradually into the future, though they may sharply reject obsolete ideas, criticizing past mistakes. Advancing step by step, they generally believe in the linearity of development, i.e. according to their deep convictions, it is only necessary to remove obstacles, remnants of the past, and immediately this will open endless possibilities for growth. This quadra is not afraid of chaos and upheavals: they know how to conduct their work under conditions of change, risk and confusion.

Do you agree with Victor Gulenko? If yes, how do you interpret this?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Tellus really this is just tl;dr to me. I don't see how you can justify your correlations in a way that cannot be explained in other ways. I do endorse the -+ signs to a degree, but at the end of the day, T is T and I prefer it that way.


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Sorry for bumping this it's the most recent thread I can find.

What would be the difference between, for example, +Fi/-Fe found as the base function for EII and -Fe/+Fi found in ESE? Are they the same thing, or is the second one in the pair less important than the first?


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

ALongTime said:


> Sorry for bumping this it's the most recent thread I can find.
> 
> What would be the difference between, for example, +Fi/-Fe found as the base function for EII and -Fe/+Fi found in ESE? Are they the same thing, or is the second one in the pair less important than the first?


http://personalitycafe.com/socionic...extroverts-ne-ti-se-model-b.html#post13200882 

Read post # 1-6


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Tellus said:


> http://personalitycafe.com/socionic...extroverts-ne-ti-se-model-b.html#post13200882
> 
> Read post # 1-6


Thanks, but what you seem to be getting at is whether there could be, for example, an EII subtype that favours -Fe, +Ni as opposed to the usual +Fi, -Ne (and so resemble an EIE with the +'s and -'s switched).

What I'm trying to do is compare the +Fi -Fe of an EII with the -Fe +Fi of an ESE, and whether there's any inherent difference. I'd actually read what you linked before making this post and it got me wondering. Anyone know if there's there anything written on this?


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@ALongTime
The difference would be that one is a Dependent Function and one is an Independent function. Fi+Ne- has its Ne- possibilities confined to the will of the existing Fi+.
In your specific question, which one is independent and which is dependant are different.


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @ALongTime
> The difference would be that one is a Dependent Function and one is an Independent function. Fi+Ne- has its Ne- possibilities confined to the will of the existing Fi+.
> In your specific question, which one is independent and which is dependant are different.


I'm sorry I'm not sure I understand your answer. I'm not talking about Ne, I mean the order of the information elements within each function in Model B and whether or not that makes a difference.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@ALongTime

The properties of Fi+/Fe- for EII/ESE would be the same, but their usage of them and their modes of operation would be different.

Leading function is the main function used and acts independently of any rules set by the dependent functions.
Ignoring function is the function used for controlling access to your life and acts dependently on the rules set by the independent functions.

EII would use the premise of removal of negative emotions to allow people into their lives, but only if their addition would be a positive relationship as determined by their rules of Fi+.
ESE would use the premise of positive relationships to allow people into their lives, but only if their addition would be removal of negative emotions as determined by their rules of Fe-.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

ALongTime said:


> Thanks, but what you seem to be getting at is whether there could be, for example, an EII subtype that favours -Fe, +Ni as opposed to the usual +Fi, -Ne (and so resemble an EIE with the +'s and -'s switched).
> 
> What I'm trying to do is compare the +Fi -Fe of an EII with the -Fe +Fi of an ESE, and whether there's any inherent difference. I'd actually read what you linked before making this post and it got me wondering. Anyone know if there's there anything written on this?


EII: "A-side" -> +Fi as base function (and a part of the introverted process)

ESE: "B-side" -> +Fi as base function (and a part of the introverted process)

The A-side is used (much?) more than the B-side, i.e. an EII introverts more than he or she extroverts. 
(so EII uses +Fi more than ESE)

If you have any further questions, please continue the discussion here:

http://personalitycafe.com/socionic...extroverts-ne-ti-se-model-b.html#post13200882


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @ALongTime
> 
> The properties of Fi+/Fe- for EII/ESE would be the same, but their usage of them and their modes of operation would be different.
> 
> ...


I'm only talking about the order of the information elements within each function in model B, for example +Fi -Fe vs -Fi +Fe, I already have a reasonable understanding of how the functions interact.



Tellus said:


> EII: "A-side" -> +Fi as base function (and a part of the introverted process)
> 
> ESE: "B-side" -> +Fi as base function (and a part of the introverted process)
> 
> ...


Your discussion is interesting but I want to approach this from a different angle, my question is simply about model B, and did anyone proposing this model have anything to say about what difference the order makes? I can't discuss a specific theory about it until I have all the information.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@ALongTime

Ah, okay, I understand now. Information? No.
But based upon my understanding of myself, it would be my natural disposition to be Fi+/Fe-, similar to pulling a float underwater, easy a little bit, but gets logarithmically more difficult the further I try to do it. Perhaps, operating as Fe- would inverse the rest of my functions, but at an increasing difficulty? Just offering theories lol


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @ALongTime
> 
> Ah, okay, I understand now. Information? No.
> But based upon my understanding of myself, it would be my natural disposition to be Fi+/Fe-, similar to pulling a float underwater, easy a little bit, but gets logarithmically more difficult the further I try to do it. Perhaps, operating as Fe- would inverse the rest of my functions, but at an increasing difficulty? Just offering theories lol


Thanks for your help.

I can definitely relate to Fe- in terms of minimising conflict, and I generally do that by taking a positive attitude towards people, and helping others to see positives in each other for the purpose of minimising conflict, so they seem kind of inseparable. And yes I've always seen that as more Fe than Fi, despite that I strongly relate to Fi in all other aspects. In model A I always attributed that to pre-emptively guarding against PoLR Se, which would come in to play if arguments arose, but this could potentially explain it better. Ever since long before I discovered socionics I always saw myself as a positive pessimist, where I would expect the worst in people but always see the good in any negative situation.

It would be good to get some ESE's opinion if there are any around...


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

ALongTime said:


> I'm only talking about the order of the information elements within each function in model B, for example +Fi -Fe vs -Fi +Fe, I already have a reasonable understanding of how the functions interact.
> 
> Your discussion is interesting but I want to approach this from a different angle, my question is simply about model B, and did anyone proposing this model have anything to say about what difference the order makes? I can't discuss a specific theory about it until I have all the information.


Okay, then it is better to keep the discussion here. "I can't discuss a specific theory about it until I have all the information." Fair enough, unfortunately we don't have Mr Boukalov's explanation.


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## empathetic (Aug 10, 2020)

Tellus said:


> I found these threads:
> 
> Hitta's final model B thread
> 
> ...


May be but not solely. It is just speaking about itself that is not a separate model but an addition to model A just as much as Model G claims to be. Both seems to take libido/energy into consideration which Aushra herself considered and might have wanted to develop further.


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## Wyrmspirit (Sep 19, 2020)

I think too much time is spent inventing new models and not enough time spent gathering information. Every single model right now is pseudoscience because not only are they very young, they haven't been tested for validity and repeatability that much. Rather than comparing models and asking for subjective input, go out and apply them and come back with new information that adds something to the research.

Don't turn models into tribes.


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