# Distinguishing Between Type 1 and Type 8



## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Anyone else find these types oddly similar when applied to the 'real world?' Type 1s can be very adamant and assertive about whatever belief they hold true and need to perfect. But Type 8s are adamant and assertive for the sake of being adamant and assertive. I think it's difficult to tell because neither type is fully conscious (superego and id). It's making me question my tritype and my father's type. 

Thoughts?


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## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

Type 1's and 8's certainly do not look similar on the outside. For starters a type 8 is going to express anger quiet readily your going to see them raise their voice, you will feel that intensity. A type 1 is not visibly showing anger, their anger is more shown as irritation, or a change in normal pattern but you wouldn't ever know their angry just by looking at them. 

Any type can be adamant depending on the circumstance, a type 9 can get very adamant when he's protecting a group since hes acting on behalf of the group and asserting the wills of his friends, not his own which is the vice of the 9. Belligerence is a trait of the 7 as well as the 8.

Under the surface though type 8's and type 1's will resemble one another since their both body types and actually observe the same incoming information but with different lenses.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

This thread might help you: http://personalitycafe.com/type-1-f...ning-one-eight-core-fix-list-differences.html


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Octavarium said:


> This thread might help you: http://personalitycafe.com/type-1-f...ning-one-eight-core-fix-list-differences.html


Thanks!


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Eh. The stereotype is that 1s don't express their anger because they feel it's 'bad' (FALSE: that depends on every 1 and what they perceive as right/wrong) whereas 8s just explode, which I find overly simplistic. 1w2s can look a lot like Eights outwardly. Sx 1s can also be very 8like especially. They're less likely to bottle up and repress, and instead can come across as lusty, fiery, passionate, almost animalistic, and even 'sadistic' according to Naranjo. Just read his Sx 1 description to get an idea of what I'm saying.

The primary discriminator between both types IMO is that 1s are superego, 8s are id. Meaning 1s will likely experience a LOT more guilt for not living up to their internal ideal (whatever that is), beating themselves up, etc. There's also the process of 'filtering' themselves, their actions through their superego. You'll find none of this in 8s, who don't need to justify themselves really. 

I can think of a few more differences in terms of morality and such, but I'm not sure I grasp that completely still, so I'll let others chime in *cough* @_Boss_ *cough* (whose SO is an Sx 1w9 that comes across as VERY 8like as well, by the way). In my experience, 1s and 8s can be even harder to differentiate than CP6s and 8s.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Anyone else find these types oddly similar when applied to the 'real world?' Type 1s can be very adamant and assertive about whatever belief they hold true and need to perfect. But Type 8s are adamant and assertive for the sake of being adamant and assertive. I think it's difficult to tell because neither type is fully conscious (superego and id). It's making me question my tritype and my father's type.
> 
> Thoughts?


I think it's good to focus on the few obvious, different big themes here. 

Both types can come across strongly and seem controlling. But 8s want to control to avoid being controlled, 1s want to control to make things right.

Both types are action-oriented types and may seem passionate. Super-ego 1s want to be satisfied with things but really are not since they see the need for improvement almost everywhere, including themselves, and are passionate about perfection. Id 8s are more satisfied with themselves and want to satisfy themselves in the future too, there's their passion.

Both types can seem a bit dark in some ways (compare them to 9s for example). But it's different kind of darkness. At their worst, 8s are more arrogant, intimidating and paranoid and questioning whether they can trust to others or not. 1s are dark mainly in being just negative, criticizing, unsatisfied concerning their ideals not their appetite and depressive.

The last thing that comes into my mind is emotionality. 8s are more blunt and less shameful about it than 1s who more often seem to consider it wrong to lose your temper or let your feelings affect what you do.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

zallla said:


> But 8s want to control to avoid being controlled. At their worst, 8s are more arrogant, intimidating and paranoid and questioning whether they can trust to others or not.


That's actually CP6, not 8.



> 8s are more blunt and less shameful about it than 1s who more often seem to consider it wrong to lose your temper or let your feelings affect what you do.


Again, depends on the 1's individual values and sense of right/wrong. Not all 1s will consider the same thing shameful.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> That's actually CP6, not 8.


Unfortunately, I'm not surprised you don't know what these types really look like. It's really frustrating to see that in so many threads and so many areas of Enneagram you spread inaccurate information about the theory of Enneagram.


I don't know what part of that was "wrong" to you but google "enneagram type 8 avoid control" or "enneagram 8 paranoid" and you'll find many descriptions saying exactly what I just said.

Just a quick look to the search results gives me these:

From the Enneagram Blogspot:
_The central problem for individuals of enneatype Eight is that the need to avoid being controlled can manifest in the need to control, the need to be "in charge," the compulsion to dominate. _

From Eclectic Energies:_
Betrayal of any sort is absolutely intolerable and can provoke a powerful response on the part of the violated Eight. Intimate relationships are frequently the arena in which an Eight's control issues are most obviously played out and questions of trust assume a pivotal position._

From timeless' description thread:
_Eights can be pretty paranoid in a state of disintegration/unhealthiness (arrow to 5)_

From an Enneagram blog:
_Unhealthy Eights become more and more paranoid and do not hesitate to attack their opponents or those they perceive as opponents._


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Anyone else find these types oddly similar when applied to the 'real world?' Type 1s can be very adamant and assertive about whatever belief they hold true and need to perfect. But Type 8s are adamant and assertive for the sake of being adamant and assertive. I think it's difficult to tell because neither type is fully conscious (superego and id). It's making me question my tritype and my father's type.
> Thoughts?


similarities
- gut center types
- a sense of "justice" (they tend to define it differently)
- tend to command a degree of authority (particularly 8w9 and 1w9)
- typically confident and assertive
- likely to have a strong sense of integrity
- straight foward, no BS communication style. neither have much patience for subversion, passive aggression or beating around the bush
- tendencies toward being bossy and controlling

differences
- Superego vs Id. 1s are extremely hard on themselves; 8s are not
- the way they view "justice". for an for a 1, justice means adherence to moral standards/codes, fairness and objective punishment devoid of personal vendetta. for an 8, justice means getting even (though they're not the sort for petty vendettas, that's more 6, 4 or perhaps a disintegrated 2), looking out for "their people" and any ethical convictions that are "just there". for example, a mother leopard taking care of her cub does not do so out of any superego compulsion, it's just what she does. this is how an 8 is. they have a sense of justice, often a strong one, but they don't take the time to define it, revise it or rationalize it the way a 1 does. 
- similarly, justification is a high priority to 1s, 8s seldom feel the need to justify anything. if an 8 burned your house down, his likely response when asked why would be simply "because I felt like it". 
- 8s and 1s have different flavors of control/bossiness. 1s want to make sure everyone is doing everything the right way and will often nit pick the details of people's actions or ethics. 8s do not care about this. they want you to stay in line based on whatever their use for you is or, in the case of an unhealthy, sadistic 8, make you their bitch.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@zallla

And you're quoting _online sources_, as opposed to actual legitimate authors? Can't take you seriously, sorry.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_zallla_
> And you're quoting _online sources_, as opposed to actual legitimate authors? Can't take you seriously, sorry.


It was a lot more convenient and fast. I never thought they were not good enough sources but then again, I'm no 6-fixer 


For your education, from The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson, the co-founders of The Enneagram Institute xD:



p. 65: "The Reactive Group is composed of types Six, Four and Eight. These types *react emotionally* to conflicts and problems and have difficulties knowing how much to *trust* other other people... They fear being betrayed... " 
p. 67 table, the fears of 8s: "Being *controlled* or dominated by others" 
p. 292: "Sometimes the decision to steel themselves came when the child felt *betrayed* by a parent or another significant adult... Eights consider betrayal to be a pivotal point in their lives because it marked the death of their innocence and goodness. When their inner core was betrayed by someone important, Eights decided that they would never allow themselves to be vulnerable again" 
p. 296 table, health levels of 8s, level 6: "Eights are afraid that others are not backing them up..." 
p. 296 table, health levels of 8s, level 7: "Eights *fear that others are turning against them*... *feel betrayed and unable to trust anyone*, so they become determined to protect themselves at any cost" 
p. 296 table, health levels of 8s, level 8: "Eights become so desperate to protect themselves and so fearful of retaliation for their actions that they *begin to attack potential rivals *before they can threaten them." 
p. 308: "On the other hand, they may become even more belligerent, defiant, and threatening and desperately attempt to stay in control at any cost. ("It's me against the world." "Nobody better even think about messing with me -- I'll smash them!") 
p. 308 table, warning signs: "*Paranoid feelings* of being betrayed by "their people", "Plotting vengeance and retaliation against "enemies" " 


I'm done. Happy to spread knowledge ^_^


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@zallla

Really? *facepalm* It's basically acknowledged that RH's description of Eights is poorly worded and sounds *much* more aggressive and CP6-like than how 8s actually are. 8s are not control freaks. 8s don't micromanage people around them, and don't worry about whether or not to trust them. They fear being *taken advantage of, not controlled. *As long as you don't get in their way, they're pretty much fine with you. Your misinformation is painful to even try to remedy to. Do yourself a favor: read some Maitri or Naranjo before lording it over me. You're welcome ^^


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_zallla_
> 
> Really? *facepalm* It's basically acknowledged that RH's description of Eights is poorly worded and sounds *much* more aggressive and CP6-like than how 8s actually are. 8s are not control freaks. 8s don't micromanage people around them, and don't worry about whether or not to trust them. They fear being *taken advantage of, not controlled. *As long as you don't get in their way, they're pretty much fine with you. Your misinformation is painful to even try to remedy to. Do yourself a favor: read some Maitri or Naranjo before lording it over me. You're welcome ^^


"taken advantage of" and "being controlled" sound pretty similar to me. If you look at an objective definition, they can be quite different with many different possible circumstances, but nonetheless it is subjective. I think "being controlled" would go into the category of being taken advantage of. Thank you for trying to deliver accurate information, but you don't have to make argumentative gestures because you don't agree with someone else's information. 

Thank you, @_zallla_ , @_SharkT00th_ , @_Swordsman of Mana
_


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@_ThatOneWeirdGuy_

Actually, no, there's a pretty big difference. Being taken advantage of is about betrayal, which often is a big deal. Feeling controlled can happen over inconsequential things. I can feel controlled because someone made a decision for me; 8s are not likely to be phased by the smaller things, in fact they tend to underestimate rather than overestimate others. Unless they deem you a threat, they'll likely laugh at attempts to control them, if not be totally unaware of them.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> "taken advantage of" and "being controlled" sound pretty similar to me. If you look at an objective definition, they can be quite different with many different possible circumstances, but nonetheless it is subjective. I think "being controlled" would go into the category of being taken advantage of. Thank you for trying to deliver accurate information, but you don't have to make argumentative gestures because you don't agree with someone else's information.
> 
> Thank you, @_zallla_ , @_SharkT00th_ , @_Swordsman of Mana
> _


They arn't the same, taking advantage of someone extends to a variety of strategies than just controlling. What's your definition of control anyway? Is underhanded manipulation a way of control? Manipulation certainly isn't coercive nor does it exert force but it's certainly trickery, someone can defend themselves perhaps better from manipulation than overt controllingness. Either way, its more complex than what you seem to be stating.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Like I said, it's subjective. I see there being a big difference between the two, but I can also think of multiple situations where they're synonymous. It isn't black and white. I understand the concept though. I was merely stating that different authors and different readers could have different interpretations of the two.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

These are my old posts about 1/8 on morality and justice. You have a more comprehensive overview on the thread linked earlier. 



> As I have said earlier, a One has a more entrenched/codified set of internal moral standards. It is important for the one to live up to these. Justice, intertwined, with fairness is a moral ideal to a One. A One is capable of feeling intense anger when seeing the abuse of innocence like an 8. But, unlike the 1, an 8 is not actively trying to live up their ethical standards (correcting wrongs etc.) or an ideal of justice. 8s have a more visceral reaction to injustice (abuse of innocence [keep the vengeance-innocence dynamic in mind when it comes to 8s as its central to their stance on justice]). They react or respond to an injustice as its taking place in way that's very instinctive, and their sense of justice is far more simplistic than that of a One. It's why some would even go so far as to call it 'barbaric'- eye for an eye etc. Ones tend to theorize on matters of Justice much more often than 8s. But, it's entirely possible for an evolved 8 to see the pitfalls of an "eye for an eye approach", and it's all too possible for a One who feels morally justified (when the superego approves of such an action) in taking revenge in violent ways to approve of the "an eye for an eye mindset". Also, fairness to a One has to do with the uniform application of rules across the board because anything less would be unprincipled. For an 8, fairness has more to do with ensuring they get their share and don't receive the short end of the deal. It's more personal, more "me-centered". It can have broader more egalitarian implication in high functioning 8s, but at the core it's id-referencing. So, the whole thing is really is more complex of an issue than your post presents. It was good in parts, and I don't have the time to respond to it line by line or quote by quote so these are my general impressions and comments. I see it as too black/white.
> 
> Also, seeing the world in terms of strictly good/evil, right/wrong and corrupt/pure etc. is One rather than Eight. Eights view the world as a dog-eat-dog conflictual place. They don't view people as inherently "evil". Eights are very individualistic and the destruction of "evil", in a broader sense, is more a One theme. Misusing power to hurt the 8 or those they care for and/or view as innocent would result in feelings of vengeance, but it is not the 8 that is out to fight "evil" in the world. Again, that aligns more with the One's worldview of the world as a corrupt/potentially evil place. We ran into a bit of a problem on your thread where you took my words that 8s weren't fixated on right vs. wrong as implying that they simply had no sense of right or wrong. All adult humans, including the most rugged individualists among 8s, still have an understanding of right and wrong. Is it as deeply entrenched in their belief system as that of a One? No. Are they resentful about the morally corrupt behaviour of others, as in is it a running theme in their life? No. Are 8s able to feel intense anger/rage at what may be considered immoral/harmful behaviour? Yes. Are they inherently reformist and in tune with correcting immoral (unethical/wrong/irrationally or illogically flawed value-based) behaviours? No. They tend not to view things in moralistic terms or evaluating situations against their personal moral/ethical standards (which is Type 1), but they are just capable of acting against perceived injustice because they have their own sense of integrity (not strictly moral propriety). If they see someone (they consider) innocent being taken advantage of, an 8 might be very quick to respond.
> 
> ...





> In an Enneagram sense, an 8's sense of "integrity" is more "loosely defined" so to speak. It would be best described as a basic human awareness of right/wrong and ability to act in ways compatible with this awareness. A One's sense of integrity is more entrenched in their moral/ethical standards, and they do their best to live up to these. This would be the main difference. And yes, the terms are definitely similar. The difference is subtle in phrasing but presents in different motivations and behaviours (that may be either in common between the types or different depending on the individual and situation, which is why motivations are key), which I won't be regurgitating because I am sure you know what these are. _timeless_ has also touched on the integrity thing in his 8 description. So, you might want to get his input on the subject as well. As for justice, at this time, I have nothing else to add besides what has already been said.
> 
> And both 1s and somewhat higher functioning 8s can have "for others" outlook. Though yes, 8s being an id type are definitely concerned with their own needs, desires and wants first and foremost. They are more individualistic and self-centered than Ones.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_zallla_
> 
> Really? *facepalm* It's basically acknowledged that RH's description of Eights is poorly worded and sounds *much* more aggressive and CP6-like than how 8s actually are. 8s are not control freaks. 8s don't micromanage people around them, and don't worry about whether or not to trust them. They fear being *taken advantage of, not controlled. *As long as you don't get in their way, they're pretty much fine with you. Your misinformation is painful to even try to remedy to. Do yourself a favor: read some Maitri or Naranjo before lording it over me. You're welcome ^^


I've read Naranjo too, I like to stay open-minded and educate myself with several approaches to Enneagram instead of limiting myself to just a few ones. 

In Naranjo's _Character and Neurosis_ for example these are mentioned in relation to type 8:


"anticipate any impending attack with an attack of his own" 
"malevolent projection (clamis that most persons are devious, controlling and punitive)" 
"is convinced that everybody at bottom is malevolent and crooked... that it is only wisdom to regard everyone with distrust, unless he has been proved honest. But even such proof will readily make room for suspicion at the slightest provocation." 
"To hit back -- or preferably -- to hit first appears to him as an indispensable weapon against the crooked and hostile world around him" 
"authoritarian nature" 
"dominance" 
"toughness, confrontativeness, intimidation" 


There's distrust and paranoid suspicion related to others and defending oneself, there's the attitude of controlling and dominating others, there's defensiveness and emotional reactivity. Sure Naranjo's manner to present Enneagram differs from that of Riso and Hudson's but they _are_ talking about the same type, type 8.


@_ThatOneWeirdGuy_, another thing to differentiate 1s and 8s is rebellion. 8s are said to be _the most rebellious_ type, 1s are not rebellious in general. The only area I can see 1s being rebellious is being an advocate of a cause, correcting something that is wrong.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

you're fighting over nothing here.

@kaleidoscope is right 8s don't get phased by small stuff and attempts at control where they clearly see such attempts will be unsuccessful. they will laugh it off, pay no attention to it. they will continue to sit there and fully ignore whatever it is you're trying to get them to do.

however, @zallla is right too, 8s to do not want to be controlled by any person or circumstances. they won't let themselves be controlled. this does not manifest as laughing it off when someone consistently tries to exert their will upon them where they see it as infringing on their freedom. then you have to actively take measures to counteract that thing. also, respect plays into this thing as well. when someone comes and orders an 8 around on no basis at all, that might trigger a counterreaction. you show no respect, 8 will treat you disrespectfully too.

also, type isn't some rigid mold every individual is cast out of. there can be huge variations between people of the same type. some 8s are more reactive against attempts to control them, others less. this is the beauty of the enneagram, it's much more complex than a single sentence in a type description.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Meaning 1s will likely experience a LOT more guilt for not living up to their internal ideal (whatever that is), beating themselves up, etc. There's also the process of 'filtering' themselves, their actions through their superego. You'll find none of this in 8s, who don't need to justify themselves really.


This is something I find interesting. I've seen many people say on this site, "8s don't need to justify themselves." Then, I see this bit by Ichazo:

Unveiling the Enneagram - the enneagram ...info from the underground



> Point 8 is known as "Ego-vengeance". The fixation is also known as "Over-Justicemaker".
> 
> This ego derives from the Historical Ego, which is a response to the Conservation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Conservation Instinct at the root of Ego-Vengeance is Avarice.
> 
> ...




I know a lot of enneagram interpretation has changed since Ichazo, but I find this to be an interesting point. Do 8s need to justify & rationalize, or not?

Is justification and rationalization the same thing? 

Would love to hear people's thoughts.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@_Maybe_

I thought the 8 defense mechanism was denial? And how are justifying your actions and rationalization related? You justify by saying "sure I did A or B, but the person absolutely deserved it. They were doing something wrong" (which is more 1 than 8) whereas an 8 would not feel the guilt needed in order to justify in the first place. Rationalization, on the other hand, is about putting a positive spin on things, which is type 7's defense mechanism. It's not related to guilt, but as a way to avoid pain. I'm not familiar with Ichazo, but the version I know makes a lot more sense.



> 7) *Sevens* use *rationalization* to avoid suffering and to maintain a self image of being OK. Rationalization is a way of staying in the head, explaining away or justifying things in order to distance from painful feelings and refuse to take responsibility for their behavior. Everything can be re-framed towards the positive. Their ability to think of new options and possibilities allows Sevens to leave the present moment with its limitations and live in a seemingly unlimited future.
> 
> 8) *Eights* use *denial* to avoid vulnerability and to maintain a self image of being strong. Denial means to power up in the body center and forcefully re-direct energy and attention through willfulness and control. Vulnerable feelings are automatically put away and not experienced. Emotional energy is reduced, while instinctual energy is increased. Receptivity necessarily involves some vulnerability, so Eights seek to impact the world and other people rather than be receptive to them.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Maybe_
> 
> I thought the 8 defense mechanism was denial? And how are justifying your actions and rationalization related? You justify by saying "sure I did A or B, but the person absolutely deserved it. They were doing something wrong" (which is more 1 than 8) whereas an 8 would not feel the guilt needed in order to justify in the first place. Rationalization, on the other hand, is about putting a positive spin on things, which is type 7's defense mechanism. It's not related to guilt, but as a way to avoid pain. I'm not familiar with Ichazo, but the version I know makes a lot more sense.


So what about 7 fixed 8w7s? 

i will write more about this when I'm not on iPhone - it came up with Naranjo also and I found the sources on this topic were conflicting. I actually have no opinion yet because I am not sure where is the line between denial and rationalization. I am also not sure how a type 8 who is concerned with justice would not think "the bastard deserved it." 

I'll show you some other quotes later. This might be worth a different thread.


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

I wonder why 1s haven't taken the time to explain themselves. 

:wink:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Vergil said:


> I wonder why 1s haven't taken the time to explain themselves.
> 
> :wink:


Haha!

i think you are best qualified for that endeavor - and to answer that question ?


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## 480 (Jan 22, 2009)

The difference in how 8s and 1s handle anger is that 8s direct the anger externally. This isn't how I think it should be. 

1s direct the anger internally. I'm not how I think I should be.

8s defense mechanism is denial. This isn't going to affect me. This isn't going to slow me down. I'm not bothered by this.

Trust issues... 6s, CP or otherwise trust too much, or trust too little. Because it's an _issue. _

8s do not have that problem. You could say an 8 gets trust "just right". Think Goldilocks.

The problem for 8s is when they get it wrong. 8s believe they can see to the heart of any matter or person. Being fooled hits hard because the logical question becomes "How did I miss this?". 8s are not prone to self-doubt. And never want to feel like they've been made a fool of.

For 6s it's more of a... I questioned it... and took a chance... "How could you do this to me?!".

For 8s, who are more accustomed to taking responsibility for themselves... betrayal issues do not surface. They think, I do this because I can. Not because I'm allowed to, or because the rules don't prohibit it. Or no one's going to get upset with me if I do. So always in the back of their mind if they've been taken advantage of is the knowledge that a person did that to them because THEY allowed it. Because the other person could. They know they have no one to blame but themselves. "How could you?!" never forms. "How dare you!" is more likely. Anger at themselves for leaving their guard down/misreading a person... directed externally... which leads to vengeance. You made of a fool of me, and now you're going to pay. When I'm done, you'll realize your mistake... and you'll want very much to never, ever, make it again. This will differ from other forms of retribution displayed for similar offenses being played on other types in that it does not end. Other types run out of steam. Or rationalize it away. The 8 will use that anger as a fuel for their new project. Feeding off of it for a nearly inexhaustible energy supply. It feels good... energizing. Not draining, or miserable. It's armor and fuel in one red hot package.


Kaleidoscope seems like she has a handle on it. If you want to learn something valid... you should listen. Underestimating others was spot on. The 8 ego is the largest around. Think of lions laying out in plain sight, napping. Or bears walking through the woods without stopping to listen for what might be around the bend. If it's not "nothing can hurt me", then it's "nothing would be stupid enough to try."

When you truly believe that... you don't have to fly off the handle. You don't have to raise your voice. When 8s are described along side 6s as being reactive... It's not the same. 8s _respond. _If you see flying off the handle and running around yelling... chances are it's not an 8. When an 8 raises their voice... it's not "you better take me seriously!".... it's "I'm just that damn angry, and you had best stop doing what you're doing if you know what's good for you." That it never occurred to them that the other person might not take them seriously should be obvious.


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

Okay, let me have a stab at it.. 

First of all, the one having the confusion needs to pinpoint exactly what is confusing them; what characteristics. Also, I do not agree with justification of action being associated with 1s almost exclusively. 

Justification of action is something I think all types do; some consciously, some unconsciously; some logically, some with emotion, etc. But at some level we all do what we do with some kind of reason behind it. How apparent the reason is to the individual is all together a different matter. To give you guys an example:

Assume the question "why did you do that?" has been asked to each of 5 different people. Assume also that given below are their responses.

A: "Because it felt good."
B: "Because he asked me to!"
C: "Because she was annoying me and I was through putting up with it."
D: "Because it didn't seem to be working right."
E: "Because she was being mean to me for no reason."

I hope it is clear how each of these serves as a justification for the action. I hope it is also clear how each of these people has chosen either to refer to the external or to the internal. I believe we can extend this concept to conclude that all types are capable of justification and all people do justify their actions to themselves on some level. 

Getting back to the differences between 1s and 8s: broadly though, the following comes to mind - 


 A 1 is more likely to not be self-referential when attempting to justify their actions whereas an 8 would be.
 A 1 is more likely to project/show that they have been morally-upright the whole time, whereas, to an 8 the world's understanding of morality is irrelevant. I don't mean to say that 1s are conformists who just agree with everything out there (they're actually more likely to be pissed off because they're in disagreement), but 1s being superego types derive the basis for their own code primarily externally. This is also in line with being associated with Te as the functional equivalent.
To an 8, the basis of their code of ethics, their personal morality, is centered around what they perceive to be their due and how someone interfered in the process and ruined it for the 8. Interference is not to be tolerated. The more unhealthy 8s are like to behave in an exaggerated/aggressive manner and crush any perceived threats, while the more mature ones are likely to give the obtrusive individuals a chance to get away from all of this before things get ugly.
Personal vendetta is the most veiled idea for 1s whereas it is more obvious in case of 8s. An 8 will not feel shame/guilt when expressing the desire for revenge. However, the 1 will most likely disguise revenge with the cloak of righteousness because it is important for the 1 to feel like they are being generous, wise, understanding, blah blah. To an 8, their entire understanding of justice/fairness revolves around being compensated for all that the world took away from them. So, it is much easier to accept.
Punitiveness: if we look at this aspect again, the 1 is more likely to not be self-referential; choosing instead to refer to some "handbook to everything right" and apply its principles to the world. This is exactly why Naranjo mentions in Character and Neurosis that a 1 will convert all their requests of another person from "I want you to..." to "You should..." So, for instance, if a kid came and broke something in a 1s room, the 1 could make the kid do some chores at home and the justification would be "You made a mistake and you should make up for it," whereas if the same were to happen to an 8, it seems to me that the 8 would scare the shit out of the kid so that he never dares to come around again. A more confusing aspect would be when both the 8s or 1s are forgiving and let the kid get away with it. I acknowledge that both types are capable of mercy and forgiveness.
Anger: Looking deeper into my own psyche, I can see that the 1s anger is a direct result of not being able to satisfy the gluttony of their 7 soul child. I see the ones resentment as a resultant of sustained frustration from not being able to get what they want; from an unfulfilled desire of gluttony. Perfection being the goal of the 1, we can say that a 1 desires to be everything anyone can ideally be. This desire for all encompassing perfection is, in a way, wanting a lot of stuff, each adding to more and more and more satisfaction. Every little act/thought that depicts imperfection is thus a hindrance to satisfying that gluttonous desire. Anything less than ideal happening in the world is a hindrance in terms of achieving whatever they want - maybe in terms of getting some piece of work done, to envisioning the world the way they see it in their heads. The anger of 8s, by contrast is tightly coupled with the revenge/fairness dynamic. The 8 feels the way he/she does because he/she felt wronged by the world at some point and decided never to trust the world to be fair ever again. Every act that affects them is a reminder of that initial "betrayal" and their anger is their revenge on the world, along with their insatiable lust.

This is merely my opinion and I am more certain about what I wrote for the 1s than 8s. So, 8s, if I've missed something, please correct me.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Grim said:


> For 8s, who are more accustomed to taking responsibility for themselves...


I think this is crucial to type 8, which is why "8s don't justify" didn't make sense to me. How can you take responsibility for yourself if there is no justification or rationalization for your actions? Everyone makes mistakes. Real responsibility - and efficiency - requires some reflection about our actions.




> So always in the back of their mind if they've been taken advantage of is the knowledge that a person did that to them because THEY allowed it. Because the other person could. They know they have no one to blame but themselves.



Exactly. This is what it means to take responsibility for your actions. But again, there is some rationale here: "This happened because I allowed it to happen." To me, saying 8s don't need to justify or rationalize just sounded like "8s don't think at all" which I don't believe is the case. Your whole explanation makes sense. There is still thinking involved here; intrinsic logic - cause and effect. "This happened to me because I allowed it to happen." Taking responsibility, then, means you make sure it doesn't happen again - and the actions you take to ensure this, may be seen as 'justice' or 'taking matters into your own hands' and therefore are _justified_.




> The 8 will use that anger as a fuel for their new project. Feeding off of it for a nearly inexhaustible energy supply. It feels good... energizing. Not draining, or miserable. It's armor and fuel in one red hot package.



^ Beautifully stated.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I am not sure where is the line between denial and rationalization.


to me, there is a clear line between denial and rationalization. you'll have to provide some real life examples 'cause i'm not even sure how the 2 can be confused. and while i'm on it, when it comes to rationalization, i don't rationalize my behavior because i know why i do the things i do. i don't need to explain them to myself. sometimes the motives behind my actions can be a little more obscure even to myself, but when i think about it a little i always get to the bottom of it.

this is 'rationalizing' in the sense of explanation. and the explanation is that solid physical reason why you did what you did. the apple falls from the tree because of the gravity, that's the explanation there. the physical forces that act on it and make it fall.

if you mean 'rationalizing' in the sense of justification, then no, i don't do that. i don't need to provide some quasi-psychological-metaphysical cover for my actions to get away with them. i get away with them without going through the trouble. and doing that, explaining yourself, is fake. everybody knows what i did, my actions speak for themselves. it's not in my nature to explain myself and even if it were i think trying to justify oneself makes a person look weak. take responsibility for your actions, ''good'' and ''bad'', man up. or don't do it if you can't live with it. damn simple math.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I think this is crucial to type 8, which is why "8s don't justify" didn't make sense to me. How can you take responsibility for yourself if there is no justification or rationalization for your actions? Everyone makes mistakes. Real responsibility - and efficiency - requires some reflection about our actions.


Maybe, you're taking things literally again. When I say 8s don't justify themselves, it's because 8s don't need to filter their actions through their superego, compared to 1s who are always kept in check by their principles, their inner critic, their shoulds and musts. 8s don't have that. 8s *react*, without really giving much thought into things. Even their sense of morality is very simplistic, and black and white. So no, 8s don't sit there and try to explain their actions to themselves to evade their guilt, because they simply are THAT sure of themselves. They are id types, first and foremost.

Yes, 8s definitely take responsibility. I don't see how that's related to what I'm talking about.

EDIT: Yep. Read what meridannight said.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

meridannight said:


> if you mean 'rationalizing' in the sense of justification, then no, i don't do that. i don't need to provide some quasi-psychological-metaphysical cover for my actions to get away with them. i get away with them without going through the trouble. and doing that, explaining yourself, is fake. everybody knows what i did, my actions speak for themselves. it's not in my nature to explain myself and even if it were i think trying to justify oneself makes a person look weak. take responsibility for your actions, ''good'' and ''bad'', man up. or don't do it if you can't live with it. damn simple math.


Yes, actions speak for themselves. But if you know why you did it, or you can figure it out in retrospect, I still think this is rationale , is it not? I don't like to act purposelessly, or to do things over and over that don't lead me where I want to be. I take responsibility for my actions and who I am. Therefore if I do something utterly stupid, I will ask myself, why did I do that? Is this really what I intended? It's not self-doubt; it's pragmatism. Like Einstein said, "Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." If I don't get the results I want, I will look at my actions and figure out if there's a better way to get them. Is that not rationale?

Anyway - I edited this post - see next post. I think I was just misunderstanding the meaning of the word 'rationalization' in this context & interpreting it as 'thinking' rather than 'making excuses.'


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Maybe, you're taking things literally again. When I say 8s don't justify themselves, it's because 8s don't need to filter their actions through their superego, compared to 1s who are always kept in check by their principles, their inner critic, their shoulds and musts. 8s don't have that. 8s *react*, without really giving much thought into things. Even their sense of morality is very simplistic, and black and white. So no, 8s don't sit there and try to explain their actions to themselves to evade their guilt, because they simply are THAT sure of themselves. They are id types, first and foremost.
> 
> Yes, 8s definitely take responsibility. I don't see how that's related to what I'm talking about.
> 
> EDIT: Yep. Read what meridannight said.


There are other reasons to explain your actions to yourself - like pragmatism. Productivity. Wanting to get what you want. It doesn't need to be about guilt. People think about their actions for all sorts of reasons. That's what my problem was with the whole "8s don't rationalize" thing.

But I think I understand what is meant by it now. The explanations here are making sense.


My problem was:
"Rationalization" in this context is "making excuses for your actions." I had a different meaning in mind for the word "rationale." Thank you all for clarifying because this has been bugging me for some time now. (actually what @_meridiannight_ wrote helped to clarify what the discrepancy was.)

This:



meridannight said:


> this is 'rationalizing' in the sense of explanation. and the explanation is that solid physical reason why you did what you did.
> 
> if you mean 'rationalizing' in the sense of justification, then no, i don't do that.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

All that being said, none of the 7s I know would be so weak as to 'make excuses' rather than own up to what they did and live with it or apologize if they think they were wrong. 7s are also id types and do what they please and don't owe anyone an explanation. So, the 'rationalization = making excuses' thing is still a bit mystifying. To me this isn't the difference between a 7 vs. 8 but rather a strong person of any core type vs. a weak person. A strong person would own up and take responsibility; a weak person would make excuses and blame someone else. I don't see this as an issue of enneagram type. Even if rationalization, in your own head, is used as a defense mechanism, it would still make sense for any strong person to own up to what they did and take responsibility for their actions.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> All that being said, none of the 7s I know would be so weak as to 'make excuses' rather than own up to what they did and live with it or apologize if they think they were wrong... 7s are also id types. So, the 'rationalization = making excuses' thing is still a bit mystifying. To me this isn't the difference between a 7 vs. 8 but rather a strong person of any core type vs. a weak person. A strong person would own up and take responsibility; a weak person would make excuses. I don't see this as an issue of enneagram type. Even if rationalization, in your own head, is used as a defense mechanism, it would still make sense for any strong person to own up to what they did and take responsibility for their actions.


Rationalizing is NOT related to justifying, though. Rationalizing is about re-framing the situation positively. "Oh well, didn't mean that much to me anyway" kind of thing. It's about downplaying how serious/hurtful something is, for the sake of keeping things light. That's typically 7ish, and has nothing to do with the lack of justifying characteristic of 8s.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Rationalizing is NOT related to justifying, though. Rationalizing is about re-framing the situation positively. "Oh well, didn't mean that much to me anyway" kind of thing. It's about downplaying how serious/hurtful something is, for the sake of keeping things light. That's typically 7ish, and has nothing to do with the lack of justifying characteristic of 8s.


Makes perfect sense! Ahhhrg thank you.










That has been bothering me for months. Seriously thank you, lol.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Here's a few passages from Naranjo "Character and Neurosis" pertaining to type 8:


> Also “the appeal of life lies in its mastery. It chiefly entails his determination, conscious or unconscious, to overcome every obstacle—in or outside himself—and the belief that he should be able, and in fact is able, to do so. He should be able to master the adversities of fate, the difficulties of a situation, the intricacies of *intellectual problems*, the resistances of other people, *conflicts in himself*. The reverse side of the necessity for mastery is his dread of anything connoting helplessness; this is the most poignant dread he has.”10





> Horney’s vindictive arrogant person becomes furious at himself and scolds himself for “getting soft.” The need to deny positive feelings is intimately related to the need for triumph, for “the hardening of feelings, originally a necessity for survival, allows for an unhampered growth of the drive for a triumphant mastery of life.” She does not fail to point out this personality’s characteristic self-reliance: “For a person as isolated and as hostile as he, it is of course important not to need others. Hence he develops a pronounced pride in godlike self-sufficiency.”


This is why I think it is important to 8s to understand the reasons why we do things - understanding ourselves, mastering ourselves; being in control. Doing things 'haphazardly' without thinking, and being slave to your own impulses, does not make sense to me.



> She elaborates on the pride in the honesty, fairness, and justice of the vindictive person. “Needless to say, he is neither honest, fair nor just and cannot possibly be so. On the contrary, if anybody is determined—unconsciously—to bluff his way through life with a disregard for truth, it is he … But we can understand his belief that he possesses these attributes to a high degree if we consider his premises. To hit back or—preferably—to hit first appears to him (logically!) as an indispensable weapon against the crooked and hostile world around him. It is nothing but intelligent, legitimate self-interest. Also, not questioning the validity of his claims, his anger, and the expression of it must appear to him as entirely warranted and ‘frank.’ “There is still another factor which greatly contributes to his conviction that he is a particularly honest person and which is important to mention. He sees around him many compliant people who pretend to be more loving, more sympathetic, more generous than they actually are. And in this regard he is indeed more honest. He does not pretend to be a friendly person; in fact he disdains doing so.”


There is still some justification here: I am honest. Anything less would be fake.

By contrast, a 1's idea of mastery is different.


> His arrogant contempt for others, though is hidden from himself
> as well—behind polished friendliness, because his verystandards prohibit such ‘irregular
> feelings.’ His way of beclouding the issue of unfulfilled shoulds are twofold. In contrast to the
> narcissistic type, he does make strenuous efforts to measure up to his shoulds by fulfilling
> ...





> As confirmation of his opinion of himself, he needs respect from others rather than
> glowing admiration (which he bends to scorn). Accordingly his claims are based less on a
> ‘naive’ belief in his greatness than on a ‘deal’ he had secretly made with life. *Because he is fair,
> just, dutiful, he is entitled to fair treatment by others and by life in general. This conviction of
> ...


Mastery for 8s is independence & control.
Mastery for 1s is goodness & perfection.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Makes perfect sense! Ahhhrg thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No problem :kitteh:


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Grim said:


> The difference in how 8s and 1s handle anger is that 8s direct the anger externally. This isn't how I think it should be.
> 
> 1s direct the anger internally. I'm not how I think I should be.


Eights direct blame/anger outwards. Ones direct it inwards and outwards. The outwards part is why they can be hypercritical of others, while displaying the same traits they hold in contempt. 1s have the strongest inner critic or superego in the Enneagram. The 8 has a strong and expansive id drive ( also being a gut type they're generally more grounded than 3s [attachment issues] and 7s [head centre activity]) so impulses and actions are not filtered through or chastised by the "inner critic". It's why there's little guilt, and any guilt there is ..is avoided because it's a vulnerable "emotion". 



> Trust issues... 6s, CP or otherwise trust too much, or trust too little. Because it's an _issue. _
> 
> 8s do not have that problem. You could say an 8 gets trust "just right". Think Goldilocks.


8s don't have trust "issues" per se, but trust doesn't come easily to any reactive type, not even the 6s that trust too much. That phrase is thrown around without much pertinent elaboration. It's not so much that they trust too much from the get-go; it's that once they start trusting someone, their sense of security gets tied into it, and they will hold strong long past the person has proved themselves unworthy of such "trust". It's not even "trust". 'Trust' here is an anxious holding on because of a fear of the unknown or fear of not knowing what to do next. It is more apt to say that 6s have trust issues because either they will hang on to it when they should let go or they'll give very little of it because they're just not sure--yet-- if an individual/institution/belief system or whatever is trustworthy or not. There's a lot of questioning and vacillation, which 8s don't have. Healthier or more mature 6s know when to let go and when to give of their trust in a meaningful sense, with confidence but also an open mind.

Naranjo attributes mistrust to 8s, and what he means is that 8s don't simply assume trust until someone has proven worthy of it by being honest/direct or formidable enough to meet the 8 at their own level. With trust, comes respect and with respect comes trust. In the 8 view, the world is a conflictual place where vulnerability results in being taken advantage of. So, trust is a valuable commodity. And, not all 8s get it just right depending on where they are on their personal journey. The less mature or unhealthy (not E-health level baloney) 8s do err on the side of being distrustful. 

Nevertheless, because it is a gut type that is grounded in their instincts, 8s trust their judgment more than 6s. This applies to 1s as well, even those with heavy 6 fixes. When they trust, the person has it until they lose it. In the meantime, the 8 won't question if it was a good idea to trust so and so ? if the person is doing something behind their back ? etc. 

But, trust is a key concern for all reactive types. Betrayal, and it takes a lot for an 8 to perceive something as betrayal, is a big deal to an 8. 



> When you truly believe that... you don't have to fly off the handle. You don't have to raise your voice. When 8s are described along side 6s as being reactive... It's not the same. 8s _respond. _If you see flying off the handle and running around yelling... chances are it's not an 8. When an 8 raises their voice... it's not "you better take me seriously!".... it's "I'm just that damn angry, and you had best stop doing what you're doing if you know what's good for you." That it never occurred to them that the other person might not take them seriously should be obvious.



And reactivity isn't about flying off the handle; it is about wanting to know the truth, wanting to know what is authentic--the person behind the mask--and both 8s and cp6s can be challenging and confrontational in a conflict especially when presented with mixed messages, this common 'aggressiveness' is why cp6 mistype as 8s so often). On that note, 8s can and do fly off the handle. On average, this would not be a very common occurrence because 'flying off the handle' means that the 8 let someone "get to them", which would strike them as weak. A person in control of a situation doesn't fly off the handle and lose their shit. Not many understand this power dynamic as well as an 8. 



> The problem for 8s is when they get it wrong. 8s believe they can see to the heart of any matter or person. Being fooled hits hard because the logical question becomes "How did I miss this?". 8s are not prone to self-doubt. And never want to feel like they've been made a fool of.
> 
> For 6s it's more of a... I questioned it... and took a chance... "How could you do this to me?!".


This is true. 8s are not prone to self-doubt, and they don't like being fooled. Because of a focus of attention that causes them to overestimate themselves relative to others, they don't view themselves as "victims" of a situation or another person when trust is broken. The thought process is more like "How did I not notice this before?" or something along these lines. To be sure, an 8 may feel intense anger that will be directed outwards over this situation depending on severity. 6s have this tendency to see themselves as being marginalized or cornered or whatever that 8s don't have. 






> For 8s, who are more accustomed to taking responsibility for themselves... betrayal issues do not surface. They think, I do this because I can. Not because I'm allowed to, or because the rules don't prohibit it. Or no one's going to get upset with me if I do. So always in the back of their mind if they've been taken advantage of is the knowledge that a person did that to them because THEY allowed it. Because the other person could. They know they have no one to blame but themselves. "How could you?!" never forms. "How dare you!" is more likely. Anger at themselves for leaving their guard down/misreading a person... directed externally... which leads to vengeance. You made of a fool of me, and now you're going to pay. When I'm done, you'll realize your mistake... and you'll want very much to never, ever, make it again. This will differ from other forms of retribution displayed for similar offenses being played on other types in that it does not end. Other types run out of steam. Or rationalize it away. The 8 will use that anger as a fuel for their new project. Feeding off of it for a nearly inexhaustible energy supply. It feels good... energizing. Not draining, or miserable. It's armor and fuel in one red hot package.


8s are also sensitive to betrayal, though a perception of betrayal comes to 6s over issues that 8s would mostly brush off. It's not unknown for somewhat unhealthy or immature sixes to perceive strong disagreements as 'betrayal'; whereas, 8s don't care if you agree or disagree as long as you're honest, direct and meet their intensity, more or less. Personally, I've had fights/arguments with 8s or 1s that would have gone down very badly with some cp6s lol. The ones that are more level-headed are fine. But, with 8s and 1s, even a high decibel argument doesn't result in resentment or feelings of being 'wronged' because they're so rooted and certain of their positions. My anger or my tenacity or whatever doesn't faze 8s /1s hahaha. Though, I digress. 

8s actually do direct blame outwards, though it's not in a self-victimizing way. Part of it is saying "Yeah, how the fuck did I miss that?", but a big part of it is also "You should not have pulled that trick on me, because now you're about to regret it for a very long time". "How dare you" can be a part of it. But, oh poor lil me..how could you do this to me? No. It's about the person "asking for it". Vengeance comes in the picture, and in a pretty remorseless way--the person is seen as having brought it upon themselves. Now, I'll address the rationalization and justification part @_Maybe_ brought up. 


What @_kaleidoscope_ means (haven't read the recent posts yet) is that 8s don't justify their actions to their superego. People do things for a reason, and 8s have their reasons for doing what they do. But, Ones tend to come up with a fair bit of justifications to establish to themselves that what they're doing is "right". Or, once they've done something, they will establish to themselves that what they did was right. The distance between thought and action is minor in 8s. Their sense of justice or morality is very simplistic. They don't need to tell themselves that what they're doing is in line with their ethical imperatives. They have their reason, but that reason is all they need.


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## 480 (Jan 22, 2009)

Boss said:


> (haven't read the recent posts yet)


I noticed... You "corrected" parts of mine by restating what I wrote. 

I can see that you've been studying.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Grim said:


> I noticed... You "corrected" parts of mine by restating what I wrote.
> 
> I can see that you've been studying.


I expressed agreement with several parts of your post, elaborated on key themes, and introduced more nuances where you had oversimplified the fixation or the meaning of "reactivity". 

You bet, I've been studying.


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## 480 (Jan 22, 2009)

Boss said:


> I expressed agreement with several parts of your post, elaborated on key themes, and introduced more nuances where you had oversimplified the fixation or the meaning of "reactivity".
> 
> You bet, I've been studying.



It's fine... I thought this situation could use a bit of simplification. Though I will say the quality of information seems to have improved.


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