# Incest is Natural. Yes, thats right. You heard me.



## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

*Genetic sexual attraction (GSA) is sexual attraction between close relatives, such as siblings or half-siblings, a parent and offspring, or first and second cousins, who first meet as adults. 
*
People tend to select mates that are like themselves; this is known as assortative mating. This holds both for physical appearances and mental traits.

GSA is rare between people raised together in early childhood due to a _reverse sexual imprinting known as the Westermarck effect, which desensitizes them to later close sexual attraction. It is hypothesized that this effect evolved to prevent inbreeding.


_Apparently, this happens in over 50% of siblings/parents and offspring separated at birth who later meet as post pubescent adults. Also, its hypothesized that the Westermarck effect- (reverse sexual imprinting) through which people who live in close domestic proximity during the first few years of their life become desensitized to sexual attraction, is the true main cause of our revulsion towards sexual interaction with relatives. 

This is interesting and has proven true for me. My mom's best friend's son and I have known each other since we were babies. And we haven't been continuously exposed to each other. But we grew up as children together and the thought of doing anything sexual with him disgusts me. He's like a brother to me. Even though we have no blood relation and he's my age and very good looking. 

I just find it interesting that even something like sexual attraction/relations between relatives, which we believe to be hardwired into our system and biology as something that inspires disgust and revulsion in order to prevent inbreeding, turns out to have a significant social component. 

It shows to me how significant socialization and nurture really is in the human species. 

Here are some links for those interested in reading about GSA and cases surrounding it.

Genetic sexual attraction | From the Guardian | The Guardian

“Genetic sexual attraction is normal, and very real”: A woman describes the reality of parent-child incest - Salon.com


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I take it you're a Lena Dunham fan?


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> I take it you're a Lena Dunham fan?


I'm everybody's fan.


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

Makes sense to me. What's the problem exactly?


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

This makes me think to royal families that married relatives to one another to keep that blue blood pure and all.
There's probably an interesting history to be found around incest.


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## Doktorin Zylinder (May 10, 2015)

Wellsy said:


> This makes me think to royal families that married relatives to one another to keep that blue blood pure and all.
> There's probably an interesting history to be found around incest.


That and the hemophilia.


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

Wellsy said:


> This makes me think to royal families that married relatives to one another to keep that blue blood pure and all.
> There's probably an interesting history to be found around incest.


There is. It's called 'Game of Thrones'.


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> That and the hemophilia.


That's a bloody bad joke.


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## Doktorin Zylinder (May 10, 2015)

Rachel Wood said:


> That's a bloody bad joke.


And that's a horrible pun.


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## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

...

Cyanide is natural. 

Infanticide is natural.

Eating raw meat is natural.

Dying of pneumonia is natural.

Not having a house is natural.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

Killing people is natural. Animals do it. I just realised we are just like animals but with hypocrisy


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

KevinInHeaven said:


> Killing people is natural. Animals do it. I just realised we are just like animals but with hypocrisy


We are animals. And of course murder is natural - you don't need to be an angel to do it. What's your point?


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

In fact, the major error of people is to compare and correlate everything... But everything is a unique case, we can't say "animals kill other animal" so "human can kill other human". 
And the black widow is killing her partner, so women must kill men after sex?


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Inbreeding is know for some bad genetic results.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

westlose said:


> In fact, the major error of people is to compare and correlate everything... But everything is a unique case, we can't say "animals kill other animal" so "human can kill other human".
> And the black widow is killing her partner, so women must kill men after sex?


that was my point


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Rachel Wood said:


> Makes sense to me. What's the problem exactly?


Well, obviously this type of love is illegal most everywhere. The OP didn't extend the topic to law and real-world ramifications, but they're pretty obvious, wouldn't you say?

Incestuous relationships are punishable by jail in most states of the U.S. even though consensual incestuous relationships that don't produce offspring harm absolutely no one. 

In fact, they could even be beneficial in that many would choose to adopt (a very good thing), and populations would decline slightly (also good).


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

emberfly said:


> Well, obviously this type of love is illegal most everywhere. The OP didn't extend the topic to law and real-world ramifications, but they're pretty obvious, wouldn't you say?
> 
> Incestuous relationships are punishable by jail in most states of the U.S. even though consensual incestuous relationships that don't produce offspring harm absolutely no one.
> 
> In fact, they could even be beneficial in that many would choose to adopt (a very good thing), and populations would decline slightly (also good).


True. Good point.


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## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Inbreeding is know for some bad genetic results.


Depends. Cheetas have very little genetic variation due to a long, recent bout of inbreeding, but they are doing fine - if the bottleneck persists for a long time, harmful alleles disappear. That's unrealistic in humans however - and the species becomes a lot less adaptable.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

stultum said:


> Depends. Cheetas have very little genetic variation due to a long, recent bout of inbreeding, but they are doing fine - if the bottleneck persists for a long time, harmful alleles disappear. That's unrealistic in humans however - and the species becomes a lot less adaptable.


Forgive me, I was under the assumption we were talking about humans, however since it's about a wider scape of life forms, just see what happens when you inbreed dogs too much...You won't like it. :S


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## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Forgive me, I was under the assumption we were talking about humans, however since it's about a wider scape of life forms, just see what happens when you inbreed dogs too much...You won't like it. :S


Not for the first few thousand years, no. You need a _lot_ of selection and horribly diseased offspring before inbreeding doesn't matter anymore. You shouldn't have artificial selection working on it (As it does in dogs), only natural selection, as artificial selection will throw out the genes that keep the population healthy, and keep genes that are detrimental to the health of individuals. Remember that by definition there is always some inbreeding depression , as any population is finite. That's how selection works after all.

Humans are organisms as any other in this respect. Can we do it? Absolutely. Should we do it? Nah.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

KevinInHeaven said:


> Oops. I meant you know like killing for personal goals. Like criminals and serial killer. you know what they say the reason people go to war is to bring peace. How ironic. ;P I should probably stick to the games forum I am kinda fun there. Here I feel like I am missing out something. Lol


You can go wherever you like but I personally found your contributions insightful. ^.^


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

KevinInHeaven said:


> Oops. I meant you know like killing for personal goals. Like criminals and serial killer. you know what they say the reason people go to war is to bring peace. How ironic. ;P I should probably stick to the games forum I am kinda fun there. Here I feel like I am missing out something. Lol


But how do we catch the serial killers?  Technology (at least it makes things much easier).

Oh, don't go away - I quite like your posts, regardless of whether I agree or not. I promise to stop criticising them/replying from now on haha.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

Rachel Wood said:


> But how do we catch the serial killers?  Technology (at least it makes things much easier).
> 
> Oh, don't go away - I quite like your posts, regardless of whether I agree or not. I promise to stop criticising them/replying from now on haha.


Naah Its ok (A Fi guy here, kinda too sensitive)  and your posts are really good and on point!


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

KevinInHeaven said:


> Naah Its ok (A Fi guy here, kinda too sensitive)  and your posts are really good and on point!


Criticising people's thinking is my misguided natural method of making friends. My INTP-ness says, "Wow, I'm being extremely kind helping other people order and question their thoughts like this!" I've since learned other types see it quite differently.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

@TheProphetLaLa

Interesting thread. I have two questions:

(1) How are you using the word "natural"? In line with @stultum's post, plenty of things are natural, but that doesn't really say anything.

(2) Is there any point you're trying to make?


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Clyme said:


> @_TheProphetLaLa_
> 
> Interesting thread. I have two questions:
> 
> ...


1. The thread title is mostly click bait. Almost everything can be considered "natural". 

2. The point I'm trying to make is that even our views and feelings towards incest have a significant social component to it. It isn't simply biologically programmed into us at birth. So if something as basic as our feelings towards incest are socially derived imagine how significant socialization is in other aspects of human behavior. I think many people underestimate how significant the social component really is to the human species. And how strongly it affects our behavior/culture/norms. I want to show that most of our norms are most likely cultural/social not biologically innate. Its not "just the way we are". This was the point I was trying to make.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> 1. The thread title is mostly click bait. Almost everything can be considered "natural".
> 
> 2. The point I'm trying to make is that even our views and feelings towards incest have a significant social component to it. It isn't simply biologically programmed into us at birth. So if something as basic as our feelings towards incest are socially derived imagine how significant socialization is in other aspects of human behavior. I think many people underestimate how significant the social component really is to the human species. And how strongly it affects our behavior/culture/norms. I want to show that most of our norms are most likely cultural/social not biologically innate. Its not "just the way we are". This was the point I was trying to make.


Ah, fair enough. I think that's a perfectly fair point. I think the vast majority of our behavior is the result of socialization, as you've brought up. As to be expected, our _social_ behavior is almost completely socialized. There are so many things that we do and do not do which are of absolutely no consequence outside of a social context.


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

Rachel Wood said:


> You mention four morally neutral things and then bring up murder? That's a strange way to make a point.
> 
> Also, the first two are artificial, surely?


Artificial in method, natural in ingredients.


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

aef8234 said:


> Artificial in method, natural in ingredients.


Well, everything is natural on that level - unless there are unnatural realms. So I don't really understand what your other post even means - why bother making a natural/unnatural distinction if everything is in the same category?

Or is the one-category perspective the point you were trying to make?


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

Rachel Wood said:


> Well, everything is natural on that level?


Exactly.


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

aef8234 said:


> Exactly.


Fair enough.


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## Rachel Wood (Mar 25, 2015)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> 1. The thread title is mostly click bait. Almost everything can be considered "natural".
> 
> 2. The point I'm trying to make is that even our views and feelings towards incest have a significant social component to it. It isn't simply biologically programmed into us at birth. So if something as basic as our feelings towards incest are socially derived imagine how significant socialization is in other aspects of human behavior. I think many people underestimate how significant the social component really is to the human species. And how strongly it affects our behavior/culture/norms. I want to show that most of our norms are most likely cultural/social not biologically innate. Its not "just the way we are". This was the point I was trying to make.


Maybe you could also make a more generalised thread about that? Few people - including myself - are going to look for the overall point in a thread like this, they'll just talk about the issue at hand (incest). 

If you make a culture vs biology (or whatever) thread and make that the focal point, you'll get more of a discussion going.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

All this does is emphasize how natural it is for humans to create structure for themselves, in order to channel impulses in more optimal ways. So much of what makes us human is not genetic, as we are actually quite fluid and adaptable. 

I think attraction exists for those not raised with you as family but who are genetically close to you because they register as your "tribe". The same reason people tend to be biased towards those who look like them or their family. Similarities make people feel bonded. Instant bonds with strangers may seem "romantic". 

I also think strong attractions can be confused as sexual in people who were not able to have a healthy relationship with a family member growing up. They don't know how to interpret the strong feeling. Increasingly, we are told love is sex and sex is love, so people tend to interpret many things as sexual, especially all "attractions".


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

Natural desire and morally are two different things.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

OrangeAppled said:


> All this does is emphasize how natural it is for humans to create structure for themselves, in order to channel impulses in more optimal ways. So much of what makes us human is not genetic, as we are actually quite fluid and adaptable.
> 
> I think attraction exists for those not raised with you as family but who are genetically close to you because they register as your "tribe". The same reason people tend to be biased towards those who look like them or their family. Similarities make people feel bonded. Instant bonds with strangers may seem "romantic".
> 
> I also think strong attractions can be confused as sexual in people who were not able to have a healthy relationship with a family member growing up. They don't know how to interpret the strong feeling. Increasingly, we are told love is sex and sex is love, so people tend to interpret many things as sexual, especially all "attractions".


Good post. These were also some of my thoughts when I read those articles.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Double.


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

Rachel Wood said:


> That's a bloody bad joke.





Doktorin Zylinder said:


> And that's a horrible pun.


lol at both


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Jeff Felis said:


> Natural desire and morally are two different things.


This is true but whats morally wrong about two adults with no prior communication or ties meeting up and having a relationship with one another? Incest is problematic for me primarily in the family dynamic, either immediate or extended where they grew up around one another. Family is supposed to be a safe harbor for children to grow and introducing romantic or sexual relationships into that dynamic could ruin that. I also have a problem with the possibly of offspring which could result in potential complications for the children. I see few problems with it outside of that.


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## ForsakenMe (Aug 30, 2010)

... But.  Aren't we all somehow related to each other and share a common ancestor somewhere?


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## UnrequitedMind (Feb 2, 2013)

Rachel Wood said:


> But how do we catch the serial killers?  Technology (at least it makes things much easier).


What do you think are some of the reasons, among many reasons, that cause someone to become a serial killer?
Do you view a connection between mortality and an individual's quality of life and the awareness of other individuals quality of life, with new minds manifesting into serial killers?
If someone is alive, but is aware that they are hypothetically dead, do you think they should become content with their lot in life, or at the very least take them selves out of the game instead of harming " innocent & happy people " ?
Do you think that the advancements in technology have not only served to provide non biological distractions for the would be serial killers, but have also aided in providing fear to not commit such " atrocities " ? 
(_This is my life, this is my world, who are you and what do you want? You are of no benefit to me... please kindly fuck off!_)
Closed doors... keep on knocking but you can't come in. In fact, if you keep knocking I'm calling the police. Don't you know there are laws! If people feel some type of way about a situation or person, then it is generally known that the situation is " wrong ".
Some people used a writing utensil and wrote stuff on a piece of paper stating that you don't have to deal with this crap, that you have rights. It's on the paper, how can it be wrong?
These serial killers are simply showing that life is chaos, and that they already know if they knock on the front door, they can't come in and that your inner feeling judgment, is a negative one in relation to them. They quite clearly don't care about what someone wrote on a piece of paper, and they have no need to " knock on the door " because they already know how you think and feel, this is why they sneak in the back door. It's really just a form of expression, much like art, they are just conveying their feelings.

I do agree though, it's not like it was in the 70's for example, every king or queen must protect their castle and oral sex with the new advancements in technology and bring to justice any that still succeed with forensic science. They need to be made an example of, so that others that are upset about their lot in life, don't attempt to harm others who have stacked a very nice card castle and don't want others or nature to blow it over. You can't blame them for wanting self preservation and to obtain their feels during this lifetime.

Some say there are winners and losers in life, I actually enjoy it at times, when losers make winners lose, even at the cost of preserving their mediocre lives. 1 lost soul for 15-30 found and happy souls? Seems like a fair trade.

Death's desire, the legend of the phoenix. Everyday a phoenix is cyclically reborn (hypothetically speaking) in the mind of someone new, because of the realization of death's desire.

Whatever they choose to act on, I hope that forensic science is used to catch them after the fact, because I have no desire to prevent them from manifesting their will on the world, I'm sure it's there for a reason. If I happen to ever become a target of this, I would surely defend my self with no mercy, but I honestly don't blame them for coming to the conclusions they have and taking the actions they have taken. I believe that is more sane, than those that feel this way and do nothing. Smash a chair through the window, go out side and beat your chest and howl at the moon, you are more human than many that would consider you insane for doing this.

Just to state a few things, I am not a serial killer, I am not an ugly monster either, I just enjoy minds and motivations.

I had sex with a 2nd cousin before. I wore a condom, she was also on birth control and we were both teenagers. I don't regret it, she was in that bikini all day in the pool and at night, we were both feeling it, so we did it. Nothing negative happened as a result.


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## Sava Saevus (Feb 14, 2015)

Incest may be 'natural', however, does not mean it's beneficial in the short term or long run genetically and realistically in a society.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

A lot of people answering aren't even reading the entire OP, which is typical for these topics. I'm not going to bother answering if you can't be bothered to read the whole thing. The point of this thread isn't about incest anyway, rather I'm using incest to prove a point.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> A lot of people answering aren't even reading the entire OP, which is typical for these topics. I'm not going to bother answering if you can't be bothered to read the whole thing. The point of this thread isn't about incest anyway, rather I'm using incest to prove a point.


Not with that attitude.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Not with that attitude.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

TheProphetLaLa said:


>


Eat a happy meal. There's no way you're going out into the wild in this kind of condition.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Aside from list of previous post(s) (i.e., strawman's) - indeed, _incest_ is quite innate - and also rather common among_ young _sibling(s) (&) hormonal-drives released (Via) puberty between adolescents (_pace _Child Psychology).

As for whether or not ''incest,'' is _harmful_ - as I understand it, engaging in sexual coitus with siblings / relatives - et al so long as it is *consensual* and not for procreation - I take little issue.

- Incest can assessed on [_moral_ harm] like so *:: *


Ex; (1) --->


Does (X) incest practices / acts _harm _any of the participants?


Does (X) incest practices / acts _harm_ relationship(s) between said participants?


Does (X) incest practices / acts _harm_ relationship(s) between participant(s) and non-practicing participants .. (?) [Us / other agents].


Thus far,* consensual* [_non_-procreative] incestuous sexual coitus check(s) out.
__________________________________

Com.


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## Razorsharp (Jun 23, 2016)

Rachel Wood said:


> There is. It's called 'Game of Thrones'.


More than anything it was about not sharing Power. People can go far to avoid that.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Everyone is talking about incest when I thought the OP topic was about the fallacy of appealing to what's natural


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> A lot of people answering aren't even reading the entire OP, which is typical for these topics. I'm not going to bother answering if you can't be bothered to read the whole thing. The point of this thread isn't about incest anyway, rather I'm using incest to prove a point.


I've read the OP now and I do find it an interesting topic. You are right to state that it shows that many things that we consider "natural" have a cultural/ social component.


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## cipherpixy (Jul 9, 2015)

@TheProphetLaLa - True. It's safe to deduce that social mores are made with a lot of thought.


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## Matt The Martian (Jul 19, 2014)

Well, all sexual things are natural. Pedophilia, BDSM, even rape. Attraction is all about what goes on in our head. What is and isn't illegal relies entirely on how a society sees the effects of doing these things.


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## Laze (Feb 19, 2015)

Death is natural. Lets all kill ourselves!


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.


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## meaningless (Jul 9, 2016)

Everything's natural, its just a question of right and wrong in terms of the person. I personally think incest is disgusting.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

...Still with the incest? Alright, I'll try.

I think that usually the appeal to nature, is more often then not the appeal to norm. There are exceptions to this, such as "Natural" food & drug labels appealing to the romanticization of nature, but when it comes to social conventions what people mean by nature is that they expect something to be as it is, so it seems only "natural" that its that way. Defying that expectation makes things unnatural. I suspect people changed to say "natural" because "normal" became unpopular when ideas of non-conformity became normal and popularized, But the concept is still the same head in a different hat.


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## The Dude (May 20, 2010)

It wouldn't surprise me...there is a lot of messed up stuff related to sex like the tendency to date people that look like and or behave like the parent of the opposite sex (assuming you're heterosexual). Don't think too long about this because it could really damage you. :laughing: 

Why we are secretly attracted to people who look like our parents 
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/tech-support/201405/why-your-partner-may-be-your-parent 
Why we are unknowingly attracted to people who look like our parents | Love & Sex | Lifestyle | The Independent


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

The Dude said:


> It wouldn't surprise me...there is a lot of messed up stuff related to sex like the tendency to date people that look like and or behave like the parent of the opposite sex (assuming you're heterosexual). Don't think too long about this because it could really damage you. :laughing:
> 
> Why we are secretly attracted to people who look like our parents
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/tech-support/201405/why-your-partner-may-be-your-parent
> Why we are unknowingly attracted to people who look like our parents | Love & Sex | Lifestyle | The Independent


I'm attracted to my Mother's personality (not entirely) she seems like an ESTJ and I find ENTJs "hot", I don't find any aspect of her appearance appealing.


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## Ausserirdische (May 2, 2015)

I think incest is disgusting, but hey, I'd just be completely hypocritical if I said it was immoral to do so. If you think homosexualism isn't immoral, you can't say incest is. It just defies logic.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

I give up on trying to rail it back to topic, so.. Incest.

I genuinely find women who have some of my fathers personality traits attractive. Whether that means I am psychoanalyst's ticket to a PHD or simply that these are many of the characteristics that I have learned to admire the most in people, I don't know, but he was an impressive person, and I like me some impressive people.


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