# Question to (Former) Nice Guys and anybody else: What causes Nice Guy behavior?



## 45130 (Aug 26, 2012)

Why do Nice Guys behave like this, what are the factors that create an individual who acts like that?
If you have any theories, any personal experiences that may help explain this phenomenon, please share them.
I'm very curious to get in the mind of the Nice Guy.

In order to keep this thread sharply on topic, I propose that posters try to keep the focus on explanations and relevant anecdotes. Discussing the harm of these behaviors has been done more than often enough in other topics. Let this topic be about why Nice Guys do what they do and what leads up to their behaviors.


For those looking for a definition of Nice Guy behavior:

Core behaviors:
*becoming extremely upset and offensive after a (perceived) rejection
*Thinking they are nice guys and more deserving of a relationship than most men ("assholes")
*Getting "friendzoned"
*Very vocal about being nice, friendly and respectful, especially to women

Associated behaviors:
*Sending insulting rants after a woman does not reply online
*Stalking
*not taking "Let's stay friends" for an answer
*Believing they are in a relationship while in reality absolutely nothing happened

(feel free to add anything I might have forgotten about here)


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)




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## VacantPsalm (Dec 22, 2014)

Can you elaborate a bit on what the nice guy phenomenon you're talking about is? Like bad boy, it's a term that evolved from a mass of subjective opinions and anecdotal experiences.


If I have to throw something general down, I would say too much hard moral rules and too little empathy. (This is actually an idea I've been playing with recently and might make a thread about, which means I probably won't.) Thinking that X is the right thing to do and Y is the wrong thing to do without looking at the circumstances.

So in this case, it's being very kind and courteous even when the person doesn't really care. I have a messy/informal personality, if people do that to me it feels like they're dancing around an idea of who I am* instead of actually interacting with me. I have zero problems imagining why a girl wouldn't want to *date* someone like that. Yuck, learn some empathy ya ding dong.


* (Or worse, how I "should be" in their opinion.)


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Feminism teaches boys to be nice to girls. Guys grow up being nice and expect romantic interest in return for their niceness.


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## 45130 (Aug 26, 2012)

VacantPsalm said:


> Can you elaborate a bit on what the nice guy phenomenon you're talking about is?


Yeah, I should have... Adding this to the OP too.

Core behaviors:
*becoming extremely upset and offensive after a (perceived) rejection
*Thinking they are nice guys and more deserving of a relationship than most men ("assholes")
*Getting "friendzoned"
*Very vocal about being nice, friendly and respectful, especially to women

Associated behaviors:
*Sending insulting rants after a woman does not reply online
*Stalking
*not taking "Let's stay friends" for an answer
*Believing they are in a relationship while in reality absolutely nothing happened


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## Kitaraah (May 13, 2016)

i hate mean people


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

That old debate, entitlement for sex vs entitlement for friendship, let the race begin!


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## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

Poizon said:


> Feminism teaches boys to be nice to girls. Guys grow up being nice and expect romantic interest in return for their niceness.


Lol, society teaches people to be nice to people. Some of those people determine that to mean you can put kindness coins into girls like prize machines until sex falls out, which is retarded. In reality, the idea that being nice to someone means they owe you their romantic interest is ridiculous, and people who believe that need a reality check. Why would that ever make sense? 

With that being said, self proclaimed "nice guys" in my experience have been some of the worst people to be around. All of their kindness is given with the expectation of something more from me - which negates the kindness completely, and often they'll throw fits if not given what they want, like OP said. I think entitlement is one of the leading causes of this behavior, often resulting from parents who gave the guy whatever he wanted as a kid, and thus he expects it now as a result of pretending to care about the chick.

Genuinely kind men are obviously a different story completely, I'm just talking about the little piss-ants that treat girls super well only under the expectation of receiving sex for it, and then whine when they don't get it.


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## 45130 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wild said:


> Genuinely kind men are obviously a different story completely, I'm just talking about the little piss-ants that treat girls super well only under the expectation of receiving sex for it, and then whine when they don't get it.


Thanks for your explanation. These people are also the kind of guys that complain about being friendzoned, and throw tantrums and stuff. I think entitlement plays a large part in that. However, I've heard of related behaviors that I cannot seem to explain with just entitlement... the things I suggested as "associated behaviors": 
*Sending insulting rants after a woman does not reply online (e.g., after she has not checked Facebook for a day, or okcupid for an hour... or simply didn't reply out of a lack of interest)
*Stalking
*Believing they are in a relationship while in reality absolutely nothing happened


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

IME boys in secondary school being douches thus causing me disdain for my own gender, so I began envying guys who seemed "feminine". It was due to hormones after all.


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## Hypaspist (Feb 11, 2012)

"Nice Guy" sounds like someone who's overly optimistic and is thin skinned. Also inexperience. They tend to have a child-like view of the world where everyone is nice, polite and is interested in altruistic cooperation. 

The "bad boy" learned that you can maneuver behind the scenes to get what you want, and to manipulate those who are of little to no use. They don't fear strong language or being forceful with others to survive and are likely to step up for themselves. Being overprotected as a child leads the nice guy to believe that things can get done without being a jerk to anyone, without cussing, and without threats of consequences where needed.

At least that's how I see it. Being nice to everyone and everyone is just a naive and inexperienced view of the world.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Your list of behaviors is essentially what comes to mind when someone says "nice guy" and so the pattern I've noticed in such behaviors (or just going through that list) is that it's largely an ego thing. I could be wrong but it seems obvious to me, in cases like this where someone attaches some type of "reward" to how they behave. They think it makes them a "good" person and thus deserving of good things happening to them. This resembles religious thinking, except it's making women into idols rather than doing it with (a) god(s). Either way, it's the whole idea that behaving a certain way makes them inherently good/superior and that people get what they deserve. 

This is also the best explanation I can think of for such a response to rejection: it challenges their belief that they will get what they deserve for being morally superior/ better than other men.

I think there might also be a "provider/protector" instinct at play - they want to be/be seen as useful, helpful or needed. Personally, I believe morality is closely tied to instinct, so perhaps the moralization is their way of rationalizing their need to feel needed. Because that's easier than acknowledging some biological drive they don't control (like I said, an ego thing...) Edit: like @*SJWDefener* said, hormones.

Anecdotally - well maybe I am projecting with my theories, because I have experienced the "want to be needed" thing. However, I find the nice guy act to be disingenuous (hence an act), and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, like get over yourself lol.

In fact, I know/have heard of women who are like this too, and I have also personally "friend zoned" female friends. Maybe it manifests slightly differently or goes unnoticed - for whatever reason, it hasn't become as much of a trope. One example is thinking men are so easy and they're so hot they could get anyone. If they happen to be seriously interested in a guy though (typically one with similar standards as she has), they can't handle rejection and may take it out on the guy instead.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

To be fair, neither of the sides have much of a high ground to stand on. While thinking you are "friendzoned" implies someone owes you a romantic relationship, the most common reaction to that debate, the belief that if someone wanted more than friendship, then the entire friendship was faked possibly for years for the sole purpose of getting into one's pants, is not only a ridiculous glorification's of one's undergarments, but it also has the unfortunate implication that you believe the two to be contradicting and that friendship is not an element of your romantic relationships. This is by no means the battle of the ethical Titans.






...Or maybe it is:


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## Mirkwood (Jul 16, 2014)

Infinnacage said:


> Why do Nice Guys behave like this, what are the factors that create an individual who acts like that?
> If you have any theories, any personal experiences that may help explain this phenomenon, please share them.
> I'm very curious to get in the mind of the Nice Guy.
> 
> ...


That actually horribly sounds like me sometimes.... but why not get called an asshole?, some of those behaviours don't sound so great.

Well, as you kinda put it yourself, "Thinking they are nice guys and more deserving of a relationship than most men" 
Am a good/nice guy so how can person break?, and etc. (cognitive dissonance comes to mind with this..)

Desperation comes to mind, and just anxious person.. sensitive attachment system related stuff (anxious type in attachment theory) 
Wanting some of the same niceness and goodness back maybe. (you treat others as you would want to be treated yourself?), maybe offering what you didn't get, while giving what you got.

Having a cognitive map of how you should behave and be around girls and in relationship. Could be from all sorts of sources.


In a book i got which has a little nice chapter on possible explanation says that good guys or nice guys just only were told they were only OK, if they were good. so not making a fuss or etc. And that all is very automatic niceness without thinking too much.

Also i am thinking, it can be a kind of defence... cause you can kinda smother or kill with niceness, ..... "just take it all.. i am scared", maybe.

Super-ego very filled and busy.

EDIT: Also, if you are very alone, and easily come to depend on one person (tho there may be others around), you dare not offend this person at all, if person means all to you. could be a factor.


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## Kitaraah (May 13, 2016)

nvm


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

I think it comes from what's sometimes called "benevolent sexism", i.e. considering women as precious, mystical, fragile beings who require constant compliments and can't possibly handle being treated like regular human beings.

I mean, a lot of the confusion with the whole "nice guy" syndrome starts with the very definition of what it means to be nice. IMO being nice is just being considerate and allowing the people you interact with to be themselves, but often times it seems as if the people who talk about "nice guys" equate niceness with being subservient, meek and apologetic. If you live by that definition of what it means to be nice, you're going to end up hiding who you really are and what's left is just a sorry shell of a human being. That's why they lose to "bad boys"; not because women don't appreciate niceness, but because at least bad boys have integrity and a real personality.


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## Mirkwood (Jul 16, 2014)

Btw, don't forget sweethearts, girl version.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Mirkwood said:


> In a book i got which has a little nice chapter on possible explanation says that good guys or nice guys just only were told they were only OK, if they were good. so not making a fuss or etc.* And that all is very automatic niceness without thinking too much*.


I am not sure if I buy that. Wouldn't the sort of people who resent treating others well and not "getting paid" be the ones who experience treating others well as work?


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

Being nice = rewards.
So if you think about it, nice guys are just manipulators.

I mean you will still have those nice guys that are nice for no reason and don't even expect/accept rewards which is like ":/ what's the point ******?".


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Poizon said:


> Feminism teaches boys to be nice to girls. Guys grow up being nice and expect romantic interest in return for their niceness.


It teaches respect and basically, the absolute opposite of men acting like they are entitled to sex when they have been "nice". 


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

would a 19th engish gentleman be considered "nice" today?...seems to me he would...so isn't "nice guy" just the way men were expected to treat women in all traditional societies?


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Infinnacage said:


> Why do Nice Guys behave like this, what are the factors that create an individual who acts like that?
> If you have any theories, any personal experiences that may help explain this phenomenon, please share them.
> I'm very curious to get in the mind of the Nice Guy.
> 
> ...


That sounds more like a description of an undercover jerk than a nice guy . 

I figure nice guy would be a gentlemen who doesn't nag or complain after a rejection 



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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

I was a pretty stereotypical niceguy up until my mid-late 20s. Why? Ultimately it is desperation and just not knowing what to do.

Whenever I met a girl I was attracted to and got her number, I became too obsessed with it. I tried too hard, I thought I had to be particularly clever or bring the "A game" when I could have just been normal, etc. And because I knew sometimes that the nice guy thing was failing, I would break out the mean guy thing as a sort of strategic move, but that can't really be faked and always backfired. I was always trying to figure out and deploy strategies. That was the biggest mistake, either that or I wasn't committed enough. Because some PUA guys do actually go out there and hammer away at it until they get good. 

Ultimately I think _trying_ is fine, but there is a line you cross eventually where it goes too far. Acceptable trying means being polite, showing interest, and following traditional dating rituals to some extent. My version went more like doing outrageous and blatantly manipulative things. The problem with "nice guys" is that they aren't really nice guys. If you're actually nice, you'll probably have decent success. But I think a lot of them basically just burn themselves out by doing something too nice and then expecting something in return. For instance, if you take some girl out on a really expensive date and listen to her rant about her ex or whatever, that's being beyond nice. That's not what a nice person really does. And that's why the nice person won't blow up eventually either and call the girl a bitch for not putting out after all of that. Because they tried but not too hard, and have a life of their own.

It's really about having a life of one's own. Finding some girl is something to do, but you have to have things that come before that. Your own interests.


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## Tsu (May 19, 2016)

There's some things that genuinely bother me in this thread.

All this talk that a "Nice Guy" would get upset after getting rejected. I am pretty sure it's normal to be hurt and upset after getting rejected (or broken up with for that matter). You ponder about how it happened, or why it turned out that way and whatnot. I think the defining difference though, is *how* you deal with rejection.
How mature are you as a person to look at it neutrally and simply agree that things just didn't click for whatever the reasons were. You just take the facts, and move on. That's one of the differences between a childish person and an adult.

And the concept of the fabled "friend-zone" is actually far more real than most people have given credit for, just not in the way it's presented.
The majority of women, when they are in the process of growing up, are into the "bad boys" with the chip on the shoulder, with confidence and a bit of a brooding attitude. So the *actual nicer guys* who genuinely just want to have a nice time end up not standing out in this respect. That's no one's fault, but that's just how it is. Period.
The supposed "Nice Guy" as portrayed in this thread is an entirely different dynamic all together. The "Nice Guy" who think he deserves everything and is just being an undercover jerk-wad, is actually just that. Not an actual nice guy, but just a jerk-wad.

As for the difference between actual nice guys' behavior, and guys who generally don't give a damn, is that the nicer guys actually want to care for other people. Where-as the guys who don't give a damn, only really care about themselves above everything else. It's not that they don't care, it's just that their priorities in life are different.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Tsu said:


> There's some things that genuinely bother me in this thread.
> 
> All this talk that a "Nice Guy" would get upset after getting rejected. I am pretty sure it's normal to be hurt and upset after getting rejected (or broken up with for that matter). You ponder about how it happened, or why it turned out that way and whatnot. I think the defining difference though, is *how* you deal with rejection.
> How mature are you as a person to look at it neutrally and simply agree that things just didn't click for whatever the reasons were. You just take the facts, and move on. That's one of the differences between a childish person and an adult.
> ...


Friend zone is bullshit. Nobody is in any zone. People either are attracted or they're not and to shame women for this is fucking bullshit. I never see woman whinging about being in a zone when a man isn't attracted. You move on and don't be a bitter, resentful ass. 

A quote that I've read, which is true is: ""Slut" is judging a woman's right to say 'Yes', "Friend zone" is judging a woman's right to say 'No'."


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> Friend zone is bullshit. Nobody is in any zone. People either are attracted or they're not and to shame women for this is fucking bullshit. I never see woman whinging about being in a zone when a man isn't attracted. You move on and don't be a bitter, resentful ass.
> 
> A quote that I've read, which is true is: ""Slut" is judging a woman's right to say 'Yes', "Friend zone" is judging a woman's right to say 'No'."
> 
> ...


It probably has to do with the fact that they have suitors constantly pestering them. 

Guys are expected to make the first move(s), and take rejection with grace. 

Also seems like there are more "do this" while in a relationship, to keep a woman, and breakups are instigated on their behalf...


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

WamphyriThrall said:


> It probably has to do with the fact that they have suitors constantly pestering them.
> 
> Guys are expected to make the first move(s), and take rejection with grace.
> 
> Also seems like there are more "do this" while in a relationship, to keep a woman, and breakups are instigated on their behalf...


An average woman doesn't have that much and even then, it's no excuse. I don't like the whole, You're a woman you have plenty of attention that's why you're a slut/whore rhetoric some men seem to spout. That's very resentful, not to mention childish. Do you think all ordinary, everyday women are treated like supermodels? Come on. It's just as hard for us out there. You don't see many women attacking men because they won't go out with them. 

And no, I don't buy any of the second part of your post. That's presumption, not fact.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> An average woman doesn't have that much and even then, it's no excuse. I don't like the whole, You're a woman you have plenty of attention that's why you're a slut/whore rhetoric some men seem to spout. That's very resentful, not to mention childish. Do you think all ordinary, everyday women are treated like supermodels? Come on. It's just as hard for us out there. You don't see many women attacking men because they won't go out with them.
> 
> And no, I don't buy any of the second part of your post. That's presumption, not fact.


If anything, it seems like women (especially attractive ones) handle rejection even worse than men! You get homophobic comments, physical retaliation, and all sorts of behind the scenes nastiness. For all the complaining that goes on about unwanted attention, it seems many have come to expect it. 

I'm not making excuses, but I have a hard time seeing women being rejected by men and taking it smiling, "Thank you!! ^_^"


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

WamphyriThrall said:


> If anything, it seems like women (especially attractive ones) handle rejection even worse than men! You get homophobic comments, physical retaliation, and all sorts of behind the scenes nastiness. For all the complaining that goes on about unwanted attention, it seems many have come to expect it.
> 
> I'm not making excuses, but I have a hard time seeing women being rejected by men and taking it smiling, "Thank you!! ^_^"


Obviously no one takes rejection well, but you don't see them react like men. We usually drink a bottle or two of wine and chill with a lot of cats. 

I don't know what you're talking about with homophobic comments and physical aggression. That sounds like a major hyperbolic presumption to me. As for your unwanted attention comment, don't even go there. 


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> Obviously no one takes rejection well, but you don't see them react like men. We usually drink a bottle or two of wine and chill with a lot of cats.
> 
> I don't know what you're talking about with homophobic comments and physical aggression. That sounds like a major hyperbolic presumption to me. As for your unwanted attention comment, don't even go there.
> 
> ...


Aren't a lot of guys who complain about the "friend zone" feeling led on? It might solve some issues to tell them straight up that you're not attracted to them, rather than hoping they'll "catch the hint" or whatever. Sure, more risk, but it ensures things don't drag on with neither side feeling understood.

Anyway, if you're just going to see one side of the issue and remain enemies with men, that's your choice. I'd expect a bisexual female to see things more eye-to-eye. Then again, maybe you have more of a "fuck 'em" attitude, so even if you're not attracted to them... it makes no sense to remain hostile to half the population. This is where "man-hating feminist" stereotypes come from.

I think a lot of people go through a similar phase, especially when young and new to dating. When it evolves into life-long resentment, and even worse, draws men into things like MGTOW, then it becomes an issue. I'm *hoping* it's a phase for most of them, rather than a life-long choice.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

They're feeling entitled and it's not up to anyone else but them to learn that no woman is obligated to give you attention. Nice guy attitudes are not the fault of women at all. It's the fault of societal teaching that men are entitled to women. That's why men get nasty and spiteful when you demand you're treated with respect, because they don't feel you who should be and shut up and just dispense sex like a slot machine. No. 


And many women have been attacked and killed because they have rejected men's advances. Just google; you'll have endless articles and lists of women who have been viciously murdered because they didn't want anything to do with the guy. I guess that was their fault they didn't tell them more sympathetically, though, huh?

And lol I'm not even going to answer the feminist bs. Bored of it.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> They're feeling entitled and it's not up to anyone else but them to learn that no woman is obligated to give you attention. Nice guy attitudes are not the fault of women at all. It's the fault of societal teaching that men are entitled to women. That's why men get nasty and spiteful when you demand you're treated with respect, because they don't feel you who should be and shut up and just dispense sex like a slot machine. No.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


And society is made up of men and women... 

How would you go about fighting these feelings of entitlement? 

It also doesn't help that a man's worth seems to be dependent on how successful he is in getting laid and "taking charge". 

Funny, because being "nice" seems to go against those ideals (not that it isn't a positive trait to have, but for it to be the only one?)


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

WamphyriThrall said:


> And society is made up of men and women...
> 
> How would you go about fighting these feelings of entitlement?
> 
> ...


All of that is societal pressure and expectations. It's up to men to challenge these ideals, not women.

"Nice" obviously means something different for men.. I hate the word. I use the word "Good". As in "good" person, who does "good". Not "nice" person, who wants a reward. What are you, a dog?


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> All of that is societal pressure and expectations. It's up to men to challenge these ideals, not women.
> 
> "Nice" obviously means something different for men.. I hate the word. I use the word "Good". As in "good" person, who does "good". Not "nice" person, who wants a reward. What are you, a dog?


What motivation do they have to do so?


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

WamphyriThrall said:


> What motivation do they have to do so?


In respect to what?


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Sigh -.-


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Sigh -.-


No honestly I don't know what you were referring to.

However, there should be motivation to be good and to want to break free of societal pressures and ideals. No explanation should have to be necessary there. 


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## Tridentus (Dec 14, 2009)

I was completely ready to facepalm when I came to this thread, but thank God some of the answers are actually correct and not annoying man-children throwing tantrums. -ok I found some toy chucking.

People tend to comment that I am a "good guy" even though I don't really think about it as being part of how I see myself, and the difference between that and a nice guy is that I will do things for people in general without wanting anything in return.. In fact I don't want people to even notice too much, I'm doing it for me not for them (if you want to understand it that way). It also doesn't matter if the person is someone I find attractive. If I actually caught myself doing favours because someone is attractive- I would feel ashamed of myself because that's basically motivated by being pathetic, which is exactly what "nice guys" do.

Being a nice guy or being a good guy is definitely the least thing I think of as what I have to offer when pursuing someone. My exes have tended to comment that part of the reason they liked me because I was "nice"- but what they actually mean is that I had good social intuition and empathy, and probably I was someone who boosted their mood, and they therefore felt safe and taken care of around me. I definitely didn't run around doing favours for them or going out of my way for them all that much during that sort of phase of attraction.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> No honestly I don't know what you were referring to.
> 
> However, there should be motivation to be good and to want to break free of societal pressures and ideals. No explanation should have to be necessary there.
> 
> ...


That's expecting a bit much from your everyday layman. If everyone were so mature and altruistic, we'd live in a perfect world. 

Where is that motivation? I look around, and Western culture is all about the self: greed, pleasure, ego.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

WamphyriThrall said:


> That's expecting a bit much from your everyday layman. If everyone were so mature and altruistic, we'd live in a perfect world.
> 
> Where is that motivation? I look around, and Western culture is all about the self: greed, pleasure, ego.


The motivation is in your best interest to free yourself. If you want to be imprisoned by expectations and labels, that's up to you but other people won't take that. So don't be surprised when people fight back.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

ninjahitsawall said:


> What kinds of activities would you say constitute dominance? Because statistically I don't think it's the case that more women than men are interested in "dominating" roles (sadism, restraining [bondage], humiliating, torturing, etc).


The ''submissive,'' (via) BDSM dynamic(s) is the dominant || The ''dominant,'' (via) BDSM™ dynamics is just fulfilling a role that implement(s) [controlled] acts. They guide + instruct the dom; they set the limit(s). The dom is serving her -- quenching her desires. 

Before such dynamic(s) are discussed (Via) BDSM relationship(s) -- you will see; the submissive(s) rules apply. The dom must follow her rules + instruction(s); must behave / act accordingly. 

It is merely ''pleasure,'' / getting quenched ... on the submissives behalf. For the dominant - it is both pleasure (&) a performance + servitude to the submissive.

As a dom myself; I know just what my ''job / role,'' entails (&) how important it is for the submissive, I tie her up as she wishes -- and tight.

Subbie™ just want(s) her rocks to get off // quenched -- that in which no Vanilla™ can properly fill. Vanillas™ are stubborn -- they won't quench a sub in their desires like they demand. 

BDSM™ 'power-dynamics' are always a very thin / blurred line (&) moot. 

If you ever get a submissive; you will see.

[HR][/HR]

But I am not discussing BDSM™ nor sex || I am discussing Nature™. [Non-sexual acts]. Many, many males [are not dumb] and know what submitting to a female, especially for life, entails - and just how strict females can be.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Mothtodark said:


> That example doesnt really work because the sex is what is used to control. If they want to pretend like they are dominant in bed they can. It doesnt mean they arent passing them the checkbook, or doing what the female wants to do the other 23 hours of the day.
> 
> I dont know about other men, but I dont lower myself to that. Letting another person control you is just grossly masochistic and I would never let someone do that to me just because I was infatuated with them.


Oh, male servitude in a more general sense? Yeah. That's what I was attempting to say about "overwriting" the instinct. I have experienced what I think is the "nice guy' instinct (which is essentially a fantasy where you do stuff for an attractive woman and she becomes interested in you sexually/romantically). But it wasn't strong enough to compel me to actually act on it, because the idea of my behaviors being controlled to that extent for such a seemingly meaningless reason overpowered the instinct. 

I'm more egalitarian generally, don't like the idea of one person having most of the control over another, or bargaining with material resources (like sex-money exchange.. or sex-"nice" exchange ).


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## Clayfighter (Jun 21, 2016)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Oh, male servitude in a more general sense? Yeah. That's what I was attempting to say about "overwriting" the instinct. I have experienced what I think is the "nice guy' instinct (which is essentially a fantasy where you do stuff for an attractive woman and she becomes interested in you sexually/romantically). But it wasn't strong enough to compel me to actually act on it, because the idea of my behaviors being controlled to that extent for such a seemingly meaningless reason overpowered the instinct.
> 
> I'm more egalitarian generally, don't like the idea of one person having most of the control over another, or bargaining with material resources (like sex-money exchange.. or sex-"nice" exchange ).



Ah yes sorry about that, I actually read it as men like to dominate, not that more women enjoy those fetishes that exist. I see your point now, and Im not so sure myself.

I think what we like in bed can be the opposite of real life, but sometimes also the same. For example, I dont like participating in a bunch of activities other people want to do, just because we're doing it. AKA follow the leader

However, when it comes to that stuff(sex roles), I start to care a lot less about my role.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

RansomthePasserby said:


> Agreed. You sound a lot like my girlfriend.


Your girlfriend is apart of the INTJ™ female // Alpha species™ so it is not surprising. Top mistresses are usually NT™ [ENTJ™ / INTJ™] females || then following the ST™. [ISTP™ / ESTJ™ / ISTJ™]. 

ENTP™ / INTP™ females can be like this as well - but they are much more lenient / less-strict. INTP™ / ENTP™ -- Their (Fe) makes for a good Mommy Domme Mistress™ || rather than just a Mistress™.

I heard ISFJ™ are excellent matches for the INTJ™ because of their lovely nature. eaceful:


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Mothtodark said:


> Ah yes sorry about that, I actually read it as men like to dominate, not that more women enjoy those fetishes that exist. I see your point now, and Im not so sure myself.
> 
> I think what we like in bed can be the opposite of real life, but sometimes also the same. For example, I dont like participating in a bunch of activities other people want to do, just because we're doing it. AKA follow the leader
> 
> However, when it comes to that stuff(sex roles), I start to care a lot less about my role.


Haha, that's the same conversation that's been going on in the Sex Dungeon thread.


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## RansomthePasserby (Sep 26, 2015)

Catwalk said:


> Your girlfriend is apart of the INTJ™ female // Alpha species™ so it is not surprising.


That she is. 



Catwalk said:


> I heard ISFJ™ are excellent matches for the INTJ™ because of their lovely nature. eaceful:


Yes, I think mature ISFJs with some life experience, knowledge, good communication skills, an understanding nature, and a developed sense of autonomy are perfect matches for INTJs. We're not always the most _exciting_ crew, but an ISFJ is someone the INTJ can come back to for good discussion, restful company, and long massages as needed.


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## Clayfighter (Jun 21, 2016)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Haha, that's the same conversation that's been going on in the Sex Dungeon thread.


Lol thats funny. Most of the time I only go to the sex threads when someone asks me if Ive seen a particular thread, and then I comment just for the "lols"

Except this one lol....it came up on the homepage I think as the most recent topic...thats usually the only other time I find myself in here.


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## AdroElectro (Oct 28, 2014)

Mothtodark said:


> That example doesnt really work because the sex is what is used to control. If they want to pretend like they are dominant in bed they can. It doesnt mean they arent passing them the checkbook, or doing what the female wants to do the other 23 hours of the day.
> 
> I dont know about other men, but I dont lower myself to that. Letting another person control you is just grossly masochistic and I would never let someone do that to me just because I was infatuated with them.


No *man* would.


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## Night At The Opera (Jul 23, 2016)

Mothtodark said:


> That example doesnt really work because the sex is what is used to control. If they want to pretend like they are dominant in bed they can. It doesnt mean they arent passing them the checkbook, or doing what the female wants to do the other 23 hours of the day.
> 
> I dont know about other men, but I dont lower myself to that. Letting another person control you is just grossly masochistic and I would never let someone do that to me just because I was infatuated with them.


It is not about control from the viewpoint of many submissive role variants. They do not experience a lack of control or feel controlled; from their perspective they are experiencing surrender. But this is only true in the case of some variants. That is why I agree with most of Catwalk's argument but disagree with certain premises in an overall sense. This disagreement does not impact the validity of what was stated within the context of the question: _What causes Nice Guy behavior?_

Upon further reflection, I think that is _one_ of two explanations for nice guy behavior.




koalaroo said:


> People who display the "nice guy" characteristics as stated in the OP tend to have high levels of pathological narcissism. Inherent in assuming the "nice guy" mantle is the projection of a persona onto others with the hopes of gaining something in return, and in specific, that something is a tonic for a deeply fragile ego that may as well be a giant black hole. In essence, for the "nice guy" as defined in the OP? Some sort of romantic or sexual relationship is the expected narcissistic supply when the "nice" stuff is done. However, not receiving the romance or sex is akin to a narcissistic injury -- and the wounded narcissist flies into a rage.
> 
> The "nice guy" phenomenon correlates pretty well with covert narcissism. The "nice guy" is assuming a mask to achieve an end -- fill the emptiness within -- but even receiving the narcissistic supply doesn't fill in that gaping black hole. And when the expected goal is not achieved or given for a performance? Well, the narcissistic rage starts. Someone way earlier said entitlement, and to that, I say "bingo".


This is the second cause.

Again, I disagree with certain premises. Or at the very least, I feel that it is important to elaborate upon them in order to fully understand a _Nice Guy_

All narcissists wear masks. They have no _personality_ as you would conventionally think of the term. The narcissist's personality was shattered as it was forming. A narcissist is concerned only with the cultivation and consumption of narcissistic supply----attention, either positive or negative.

All narcissists believe they are inadequate or worthless on at least a subconscious level. The difference between a covert (introverted) narcissist and an overt or "normal" (extroverted) narcissist is the self-doubt and feeling of worthlessness that afflicts the covert variety on a conscious level. The extroverted narcissist _genuinely_ believes that they are the amazing and spectacular; they are unaware of their subconscious insecurities.

Thus, the _Nice Guy_ of the narcissistic (introverted) variety lacks the confidence to approach women in an outgoing and direct manner and make clear what he _truly_ desires out of the relationship. It is possible for an extroverted narcissist to adopt the _Nice Guy_ persona, but it is less likely and their motivations for doing so are different. The extrovert is adopting a camouflage to conceal its ugly inner nature and thus make its attempt at garnering narcissistic supply more successful. The introverted narcissist is incapable of approaching a female in any other way.

I acknowledge the distinction between narcissists that gain supply through cerebral and sexual means; I simply do not think it is relevant within this context.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm curious how many trademarks @Catwalk has registered.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Derange At 170 said:


> I'm curious how many trademarks @Catwalk has registered.


granted; I'm out of surgery and fucked on meds right now, will answer this thread again later


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)




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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

AdroElectro said:


> Your perspective appears astonishingly myopic. Try to imagine yourself growing up as a heterosexual male. Once you hit puberty, you're going to start wanting girls as more than friends. Where do you learn how to do this? They don't teach it in schools, your parents won't talk about it, your peers won't have a clue. Your only guide is media.


You can definitely learn it from school, parents and peers. I watched my mom pretty much drill into my little brother how to treat women (well, in her opinion). My sister and I influenced him too. Men who are even so much as perceived as the types who (might) hit women are treated with wtf is wrong with you man. I remember when I was out at a club with a guy who was kind of a dick. He pushed me, and within like a second about six random guys had sprung from the woodwork in my honor, lol.

School. Well. I'm actually remembering the first time I ever went to the principal's office in elementary school. This kid was a little bit of a bully (or he was just mean to my friend once or something) and I sarcastically taunted him when he struck out playing softball in gym class because I guess I've always been kind of an a$$hole too. He punched me in the stomach and knocked me out. Not like unconscious, but to the ground. We got told on and my teacher sent us both to the principal's office since I "must have done something to deserve it" lol. Was it good that she wasn't coddling me as the girl or did that teach me un-feminist lessons? Hmmm. I could see feminists going either way with that one, lol. (That teacher just kind of hated me too. She made me sit on the fence just about every day at recess and I had to take a special seat next to hers. Apparently I was disruptive...).

Anyway.



Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> In regards to men being entitled then yeah, anyone should.
> @Veggie, I don't get it. You're still ultimately blaming women on men's shitty behaviour. As if most of the time, it is learnt from a narcissistic mother..? Seems to me it's learnt from the teachings of a sexist society, always putting the blame onto a female for the actions of thoughts of a man. I'm sorry, I don't get it?


No, I'm not. I'm actually not even talking about behavior at all. This thread is about cause and effect from my perspective. No one is independent of that. As far as a lot (not all of) misogynistic _thinking_ and specifically _conditioning_ (since that was the topic) though, what I laid out is kinda standard psychology. You could argue that all information gained under patriarchal authority is sexist but those sorts of arguments get exhausting. The book I'm thinking about in particular was written by a woman too... unless her thoughts and opinions aren't valid being that she's a product of her society. In which case - how would one ever escape it? Maybe it's the dad's fault for being absent and/or not stepping in within that particular set up too? Sure. Although that's more indirect (not that it would put him less at fault).


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

AdroElectro said:


> Imagine you fall into the nice guy category. Spending your whole life giving everything to women, upholding your end of the imaginary bargain and never getting anything out of it. Seeing men who put no work in, and in fact seem to disrespect women get all the girls. Your only 2 options are either going to be furious rage at the unfairness of it all, or despair and the belief that you must truly be a worthless human being unworthy of love.


Men who put "no work" in and "get all the girls" are largely mythical I think, lol. 

Guys who get labeled this way are often better winers and diners, better conversationalists (not just listeners), provide more materially, put in the effort to dress and groom themselves better, make a woman laugh, are more forward in expressing her desirability, they might be more stable professionally, etc.

That's where more annoyance with the nice guy comes from. He'll often think that just spending time with a woman or being honest with her or listening to her or being generally "nice" personality wise, whatever he's decided that to mean, should be enough for her, and that there's something flawed about her if she can't see that. (Guess she has daddy issues and likes getting treated like sh*t...).

He overestimates what he provides compared to his competition... who he just tends to brush off as flawed as well.

He also doesn't tend to have as much experience in serious relationships, and doesn't realize that a lot of the behavior he's condemning isn't so much douchebag behavior as it just... general guy behavior. Of someone actually in a relationship (or experienced with them) and all of it's unique pain in the asses, lol.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Veggie said:


> He also doesn't tend to have as much experience in serious relationships, and doesn't realize that a lot of the behavior he's condemning isn't so much douchebag behavior as it just... general guy behavior. Of someone actually in a relationship (or experienced with them) and all of it's unique pain in the asses, lol.


And elaborating on this... sometimes he DOES realize this too. But the "nice guy's" go to *in* is generally positioning himself as the man you can commit to and feel safe with. So he's either - 1. Lying. Just trying to get laid and doing so deceptively and _not_ putting in the work to be seen as more desirable and to make his lady feel this way purely from an attraction standpoint if he's just interested in something physical. Or. 2. Providing false advertisement. It's hard to sell something you have no experience with. What references does he have to reassure her when it comes to his ability to commit to relationships?


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## 45130 (Aug 26, 2012)

I've done my own research and I enjoyed reading all of your messages. Here's my take 



Hypaspist said:


> "Nice Guy" sounds like someone who's overly optimistic and is thin skinned. Also inexperience. They tend to have a child-like view of the world where everyone is nice, polite and is interested in altruistic cooperation.


Definitely true... I didn't view it this way yet, but it makes complete sense.

Think of it this way: "Assholes" compete with each other. With their friends, teammates, colleagues. They have banter and this establishes a sort of pecking order among them. Simultaneously it's a practicing environment for them to establish dominance and to get what they want. Nice Guys aren't used to this, they have a more female interaction style of cooperation.

Cue the Nice Guy perceives Asshole's competing attitude as bullying and doesn't like it when they get a GF. Simultaneously they believe they will get a girl thru cooperation only, which means exaggerated help.

There's a perfectly fine middle-route where a guy uses both interaction methods where applicable, and imo it's kindof required if you don't want to be a doormat.



ninjahitsawall said:


> the pattern I've noticed in such behaviors (or just going through that list) is that it's largely an ego thing. I could be wrong but it seems obvious to me, in cases like this where someone attaches some type of "reward" to how they behave. They think it makes them a "good" person and thus deserving of good things happening to them. This resembles religious thinking, except it's making women into idols rather than doing it with (a) god(s). Either way, it's the whole idea that behaving a certain way makes them inherently good/superior and that people get what they deserve.
> This is also the best explanation I can think of for such a response to rejection: it challenges their belief that they will get what they deserve for being morally superior/ better than other men.


I think there is something else at play too. They overestimate the value of being nice and helpful. Maybe if they had bigger assets they'd be more successful... (though of course the whole approach is flawed, agreeing with you here :v)
It might also be an expectation that relationships naturally develop from friendships. You know you can expect a thing or two back from a friend you've done something for. But sex isn't something you should expect.

As for the rejection: I think it's a a massive feeling of humiliation (and an immature reaction to it). You've done _all_ these things for her, and it didn't work. All of it was useless. In your eyes, she suddenly accrues a huge debt as you realize the helpfulness you spent on her was not an investment but just pathetic work without anything in return. i.e.

pre-rejection:
i did 50 nice things for her, that's gonna net me 50 good-boy-points (in the form of getting the V, perhaps)

post-rejection:
I did 50 nice things and I can expect exactly 0 in return. _Fuck._



> Anecdotally - well maybe I am projecting with my theories, because I have experienced the "want to be needed" thing. However, I find the nice guy act to be disingenuous (hence an act), and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, like get over yourself lol.


Honestly I am not so sure about the thing about it being an "act". I a personal story of a guy who was very inexperienced with girls, fell in love with them when they were nice to him, and projected this pattern onto girls. _If I'm nice to them, maybe they will also fall in love with me?_ And so it happens. 
In a similar vein, such an inexperienced guy can easily fall in love with a girl after establishing a friendship. Because she's nice to him.



Mirkwood said:


> Desperation comes to mind, and just anxious person.. sensitive attachment system related stuff (anxious type in attachment theory)


Incredible, I never thought about this but it seems _so _fitting, anxious attachment style as a causal factor. Thanks. 



> EDIT: Also, if you are very alone, and easily come to depend on one person (tho there may be others around), you dare not offend this person at all, if person means all to you. could be a factor.


I've personally experienced this a lot. Being alone can kindof impair all social contact this way... You end up being incapable of establishing new contacts _because_ you have no contacts. No matter if you have social skills or not, it will get to you. 



Amine said:


> I was a pretty stereotypical niceguy up until my mid-late 20s. Why? Ultimately it is desperation and just not knowing what to do.
> 
> Whenever I met a girl I was attracted to and got her number, I became too obsessed with it. I tried too hard, I thought I had to be particularly clever or bring the "A game" when I could have just been normal, etc. And because I knew sometimes that the nice guy thing was failing, I would break out the mean guy thing as a sort of strategic move, but that can't really be faked and always backfired. I was always trying to figure out and deploy strategies. That was the biggest mistake, either that or I wasn't committed enough. Because some PUA guys do actually go out there and hammer away at it until they get good.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your personal contribution! I think everyone should have a listen to Nice Guys who have overcome the problem.
Like what @*Mirkwood* mentioned, you become obsessed with the person because there's nobody else you could date / you have any chances with. That makes the person way too big an element in your life and since you're not as important as that to them, the goodies start rolling solely in their direction.



g_w said:


> OTOH, women seem to believe about "bad boys" that all he really needs is "a good woman's love" and he'll go on the straight and narrow, and give up his philandering ways to commit to HER. You know, a bad boy is a machine that you put loving sex into until commitment and civility fall out.


Extremely problematic. I've seen it happen to women past age 40... "Oh, you think he's dangerous? I will tame him..."
No you don't. 



TheSonderer said:


> I've been told time and time again is that you need to have confidence if you want to approach women (and I'm not disputing this at all, in fact I agree that it's very important). But I find it's not as easy as that you know? Like, if I could just have more confidence I would have done so a long time ago


I believe that the people who tell you (and me!) this, are people who have had high self-esteem since the start (or got it while growing up, because hormones!) and don't know how they got it. They think you can just will it into existence.



Derange At 170 said:


> While their behavior shouldn't be condoned, they deserve guidance more than vitriol. Seeing as most of them feel like they're outcasts from society because they can't make a romantic connection with people; spending pages and pages on message boards, Tumblr and social media berating them is gonna do a lot more to exacerbate the alienation and consequently, the "nice guy problem", rather than solve it. So both sides would benefit by lending some degree of empathy to these "nice guys" rather than brushing them off as _fundamentally evil_. These people need disapproval, but also guidance and understanding. Not beration and alienation.
> 
> It's easy to pigeonhole people that annoy you or you disagree with or you've had past spats with as fundamentally _evil_ or _bad_. But I think that most people are misunderstood more than anything.


I've come to notice (also in this topic) that the people hating on Nice Guys the most are _extremely_ resentful people themselves. Unfortunately they are the loudest speakers and they've hijacked this topic too. If everybody wants a high-quality discussion, I suggest ignoring the noise.

Like you, I believe these people are misunderstood; unlike you, I don't think society plays a role in this, but inexperience and other psychological factors that create an unbalanced friendship (as I've explained above in this post). 
I'm a psychology student and researcher, I like to see things from a single person's perspective, like from how their mind works, and this just clicks for me, you know? And from that single-person perspective, the debate about conditioning just doesn't seem to make much sense to me when everything can be explained without postulating any sort of conditioning. 

IMO something societal that definitely does play a role in the _single individual_'s development, is the current dating game, which @AdroElectro already mentioned. It's downright impossible for a guy to understand what he should do when he has never been successful, especially if he's unable to detect "small successes" like signs and flirts from the girl (and again, you can often only know if something was a flirt if you later get to see if she actually likes you).


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## Zeta Neprok (Jul 27, 2010)

Infinnacage said:


> I believe that the people who tell you (and me!) this, are people who have had high self-esteem since the start (or got it while growing up, because hormones!) and don't know how they got it. They think you can just will it into existence.


A lot of people seem to give the impression that it's as simple as that. 

The thing about confident people is that they have success to back up their confidence. If you have had some success with dating, or just hooking up with women then it's only natural that you'll be more confident in your abilities. If you haven't had much of any success, then it's only natural to start to wonder if you're just awful and your confidence will suffer as a result. If women never seem to have any interest in me, how do you suppose I would just "become confident" despite all that? It's not as simple as that.


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## Acrylic (Dec 14, 2015)

Wild said:


> kindness coins


Here they are with the face of one of history's most infamously benevolent figures, Caligula, on it...


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

TheSonderer said:


> A lot of people seem to give the impression that it's as simple as that.
> 
> The thing about confident people is that they have success to back up their confidence. If you have had some success with dating, or just hooking up with women then it's only natural that you'll be more confident in your abilities. If you haven't had much of any success, then it's only natural to start to wonder if you're just awful and your confidence will suffer as a result. If women never seem to have any interest in me, how do you suppose I would just "become confident" despite all that? It's not as simple as that.


It is simple, but not as opposed to complex. It can be difficult though.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Infinnacage said:


> Honestly I am not so sure about the thing about it being an "act".


I don't personally think it's usually an act. And this is why, despite the fact that the "nice" guys are usually more dishonest (whether or not they even realize it), put in less effort than their counterparts (again, whether or not they even realize it), and just tend to take less responsibility overall... I can't hate them. I even find a part of me sympathizing with certain MGTOW thought, however misogynistic at times.

There's something PURE about it. I can totally empathize with feeling lost in just feeling like you're supposed to follow a "formula" and wondering where YOU really succeed within it.

I remember when I used to hang out with these girls who would drop 200 bucks on, like, a turtleneck.

One had this keychain (if I'm remembering correctly) of engagement rings, like marriage was the equivalent of (his) bed post notches. We all went out one night, and after I'd done my make-up, she tried to almost take me under her wing or something. Oh honey, you were pretty, but all done up you look like that? You could totally get the dudes on their knees! Um. Lol. The problem is that I don't want a collection of engagement rings? If a guy asks and I accept I want it to be the first and only time? (Too late for that now, though we never actually got married). 

So I get guys wanting to be wanted for them. I don't know if it's "nice" but I think it plays out that way a lot. More vulnerable maybe?


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