# Is this Ti or Fi?



## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

So, I had this discussion with another poster about Steve Jobs.
I said Steve was ENFP, He said Steve was a ENTp.

The Poster posted videos "evidence" for Steve being a Ti user.

I see more Fi than Ti in this video.




What do you guys think?


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

The poster also posted this video as "Proof" of Steve being a Ti user 





His argument was that Steve paused and gathered his thoughts, something apparently impossible for a ENFP, so there for he must be a Ti user.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Judger definitely, so I'd say you're both wrong. He wants to change things, influence things. Perceivers are observers and go-with-the-flow kind of people. Judgers want to influence, progress, improve, change. My general impression was that the concensus says ENTJ.

I honestly haven't studied him further than this, but at least based on these two short snippets I get a very strong judger vibe.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

All the Fi feels.


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## Judas (Aug 11, 2010)

@LeaT 

Nah wrong. ENTPs also have a drive for changing things. ISFJs don't. 

I don't generally mind generalizations, but that was a bad one.

On topic: 

Kinda hard to judge from these. The emphasis on values strikes me as the perspective an ENFP would take on it, even though an ENTP might take the exact same perspective , even though they took a different route to get there.

Judging by the overall vibe, I would say ENFP. 

I have an idea that jobs was a pretty developed, well rounded person, which makes it harder to characteristically type him; I might be wrong about this.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Vilen said:


> I have an idea that jobs was a pretty developed, well rounded person


Really? I thought that he was a renowned bully. I don't know too much about him, though, 'cause the Jobs-was-a-god! culture irritates me.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vilen said:


> @_LeaT_
> 
> Nah wrong. ENTPs also have a drive for changing things. ISFJs don't.
> 
> ...


You're right that ENTPs have more of a drive. I forgot about that one. Although as I said, I don't know him good enough from any source to type him. I was pretty sure the consenus was ENTJ though.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

My reason for typing Steve Jobs as ENFP is due to his Biography written by Walter Isaacson.
In it he is clearly a Ne-Fi-Te user but extremely unbalanced and with a lot of borderline traits aswell as being slightly sociopathic.
He had to deal with feeling of abandonment by of being given up for adoption.

Int he book is a clearly a ENFP.
Technology is something spiritual for him, a way to improve peoples life.
Through out the biography he is a extremely emotional person crying often when he felt hurt.
Steve Jobs was know to motivate his employees to do insane amounts of work.
He had the ability to make people perform at their best and perform beyond what they them self thought was possible.
This ability was popularly called "the reality distortion field".
He was also a bully
He dealt with a lot of insecurities that he took out on others.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

LeaT said:


> You're right that ENTPs have more of a drive. I forgot about that one. Although as I said, I don't know him good enough from any source to type him. I was pretty sure the consenus was ENTJ though.


Are you aware of the functions?
ENTJ= Te-Ni-Se-Fi.....
ENTP= Ne-Ti-Fe-Si

Complete different.
The whole Judger, preciever thing is irrelevant.

And no, Steve wasn't a "judger".


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> Are you aware of the functions?
> ENTJ= Te-Ni-Se-Fi.....
> ENTP= Ne-Ti-Fe-Si
> 
> ...


I know about that quite well. And I've seen plenty of threads that would point either way. I'm not interested enough in Steve Jobs to bother about it. I got a judger feel based on those short clips you provided and that was all really. I got quite a lot Te when he talked about corporate values for example.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Steve Jobs: Ti-Fe (Where's the inner feeling in that video? His feeling is outward and crystal clear in the context of his speaking, while his thinking is not the easiest to follow, due to the connections in his thoughts being internalized.) Basically, when you can figure out and label someone's feeling expressions at face value with general ease, you know you've got an Fe type. It's easy to follow what he feels about what he's talking about, but what he thinks about what he's talking about isn't - there's more than what meets the eye to it.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

Those two clips are all about Fe, everything he is expressing in those clips is Fe in nature. Making a better world for others, collectively structuring and giving contributions to improve the lives of others, being more then just a company, providing comfort to people threw technology, not being in the box and working just for the bottom line, connecting with the world, emphasis on others and the external world and bringing value into peoples lives, all of this is Fe. I say its Fe because he never references himself, he completely denies his view and his opinions and perceptions to get his view across. Fi wouldn't do that. Fi sees itself and takes recognition for it's findings, Fi uses itself to gain access to others. Fi uses it's own feelings to find out how others could feel. It doesn't automatically bridge itself to others or find importance in others unless others hit on something truly important in the Fi user. Then Fi takes notice and appropriates it into the view.


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## CaptainWayward (Jun 8, 2012)

I don't think you can discern and individual's temperament from a highly choreographed speech, but either way, INTJ/ENTJ. Remember, this was the guy who was rehired to Apple when it was tanking and gutted it of every module that wasn't making a profit for the company. To this day Apply hasn't reintroduced any philanthropic programs back into their resume'.






Here's another video with him explaining his reasoning behind removing flash from their iOS. Now that I think about it, maybe he's Ti; he's portraying a clear sense of individuation in his rational, which is also portrayed in his decision to not use modern medicine for his cancer, which he died of. Also, compared to the other videos he's much more expressive of his feelings. So, I'm learning more towards ENTP/INTP ;S


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

@*CaptainWayward* Have you read his Biography or seen Pirates of the Silicon Valley?
I'm telling you right now there is no way in hell he was a INTP, INTJ or ENTJ. 
Steve was an extrovert.
Eccentric, but extremely charismatic, very emotional, very intuitive, spontaneous at times impulsive and disorganized.
he had Ne through the roof.
So the 2 alternatives I see is ENTP or ENFP with ENFP being the most likely. 

What does the video prove?
Nothing! Steve Jobs isn't a engineer, never was.
It isn't like he identified the problem or fixed it, rather his team did it and he explained it. 

Also why would using alternative medicine be attributed to ti?
Wouldn't the logical thing be to have the surgery right away rather than using pseudo science to try to heal it?
I thought Ti was all about critical thinking and subjective logical judgement. 

Steve wrote the "here's to the crazy ones".
If the message doesn't scream of Fi I don't know what does.




The Ti users will probably attribute it to Ti.

I'm starting to wonder how many people really knows what Fi is about.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

He was by no means a Te type (Te has nothing to do with being a control freak by default). He did seem to be a raging Fe type, however, who used his charisma and explicit values to get by. As I said before, his delivery of thinking is almost incoherent, while his delivery of feeling is very clear, which indicates extraversion. He preaches from the feeling point of view outwardly - it couldn't be more obvious with his slogans, inspirational pep talks, etc. ENFPs tend to be mythologized big time by stereotypes - no, they are rarely the "inspirers" that they are made out to be on the internet, because they are Fi types - it's rare that one ever gets much of a clue what they personally stand for - they are pretty much the extraverted versions of INTJs. Fe is much more of the "inspirational pep talk" function (e.g. MLK, Randy Pausch, etc.)


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> He was by no means a Te type (Te has nothing to do with being a control freak by default). He did seem to be a raging Fe type, however, who used his charisma and explicit values to get by. As I said before, his delivery of thinking is almost incoherent, while his delivery of feeling is very clear, which indicates extraversion. He preaches from the feeling point of view outwardly - it couldn't be more obvious with his slogans, inspirational pep talks, etc. ENFPs tend to be mythologized big time by stereotypes - no, they are rarely the "inspirers" that they are made out to be on the internet, because they are Fi types - it's rare that one ever gets much of a clue what they personally stand for - they are pretty much the extraverted versions of INTJs. Fe is much more of the "inspirational pep talk" function (e.g. MLK, Randy Pausch, etc.)


Hate to repeat myself all the time.. But have you red his biography?
He is no way in hell ESFJ/ENFJ/ Fe Dom.

You are wrong, ENFP are usually excellent motivators.
ENFP are good at expressing them self through words in general.
I know many Fe dom's that can't put the words on what their feelings.
As I said in the previous post, I don't think people understand Fi.

First of all i would recommend people watch Pirates of Silicon Valley and red the biography before typing Steve Jobs.
Also I think people on this tread should read up on fi

First of, Steve Jobs is a Ne dom and without a doubt a aux Fi.
People underestimate ENFP's so tremendously I just have to shake my head.
If a ENFP isn't lovey dovey they get mistyped as ENTP, INTP or ENTJ instead.
Stereotypes after stereotypes.
I wonder how many people actually know ENFP IRL.


*I ask again, how the fuck can anyone see Ti in those videos?*


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> Hate to repeat myself all the time.. But have you red his biography?
> He is no way in hell ESFJ/ENFJ/ Fe Dom.
> 
> You are wrong, ENFP are usually excellent motivators.
> ...


What is in the videos is irrelevant. Anyone can put on a front to sell iDevices. That's Fe right there.

Jobs was either an ENTP or an INTP. When you boil down Apple's business model, it's to provide a single, elegant solution to a problem. THAT, my friend, is Ti. Jobs was obsessed with ideas and cared little for who came up with the idea... add in a dash of egoism, and you have the mile-a-minute, idea-crazed inventor that is Steve Jobs. And when you consider that he started apple with the Woz, who seems like a pretty sociable INTJ, it makes even more sense.

Jobs was also obsessed with progress - always providing a newer version, even if only slightly improved. When you eliminate the most obvious answer, that this is an easy way to keep the cash rolling in, another answer seems appropriate: *Jobs had inferior Si. He hated using the past as a guide. He was a forward looker and thinker.*

Seriously. Jobs was an ENTP.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> Hate to repeat myself all the time.. But have you red his biography?
> He is no way in hell ESFJ/ENFJ/ Fe Dom.
> 
> You are wrong, ENFP are usually excellent motivators.
> ...


I never said he was an Fe dom, he's an Fe tert (little difference, really, other than ego focus). Lovey-dovey has nothing to do with Jung types at all (most of the ENFPs I know don't come off this way - some of the ENTPs I know tend to come off more this way, due to Fe). I think the Fe types are much more straight-forward when it comes to motivational statements/sentiments, since Fe is extraverted and objective, while Fi is subjective. I recommend you study the functions more than the stereotypes. Their felt convictions are strongly internal, while ENTPs' strong convictions are strongly externalized and action-oriented.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I never said he was an Fe dom, he's an Fe tert (little difference, really, other than ego focus). Lovey-dovey has nothing to do with Jung types at all (most of the ENFPs I know don't come off this way - some of the ENTPs I know tend to come off more this way, due to Fe). I think the Fe types are much more straight-forward when it comes to motivational statements/sentiments, since Fe is extraverted and objective, while Fi is subjective. I recommend you study the functions more than the stereotypes (most of the stereotypes have little to no basis in reality). Their felt convictions are strongly internal, while ENTPs' strong convictions are strongly externalized and action-oriented.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

ENFPs are not always particularly outwardly warm people - Fi in general is the function that tends to come off as colder than Fe. ENTPs tend to come off as more outwardly warm on average, but of course, this all depends on a person's persona also. The T and F in ENTPs and ENFPs really doesn't differentiate them, other than the orientations of those aux. functions. That's pretty much the only way to tell them apart.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> What is in the videos is irrelevant. Anyone can put on a front to sell iDevices. That's Fe right there.
> 
> Jobs was either an ENTP or an INTP. When you boil down Apple's business model, it's to provide a single, elegant solution to a problem. THAT, my friend, is Ti. Jobs was obsessed with ideas and cared little for who came up with the idea... add in a dash of egoism, and you have the mile-a-minute, idea-crazed inventor that is Steve Jobs. And when you consider that he started apple with the Woz, who seems like a pretty sociable INTJ, it makes even more sense.
> 
> ...


For the millionth time.... Have you red the biography?
You base the typing completely on his public image.
On the surface you can see his Ne and due to his area of profession people automatically assume that he is ENTP.

The guy was in no way a INTP, that is silly.
Steve Jobs had so many issues stemming from being adopted to being bullied in his early years.
He showed traits of borderline and was a bit of a sociopath.
BUT, he was a F rather than a T.
A ENFP rather than ENTP.

I love that ENTP's "claim" him without even reading his goddamn biography or even watching the pirates of Silicon Valley.
It seems impossible for ENTP's to envision ENFP's working in the tech industry.
First of Steve wasn't much of a engineer or a programmer, he was the idea and design guy, the visionary.
To Steve technology was something spiritual to him.

Steve opting for alternative treatment with herbs and meditation instead of removing the cancer with a swift operation...
Sounds very Ti..............

Steve irrationally denying paternal DNA test of his daughter.
Steve's reality distortion field in which he could convince others and himself that unrealistic things were possible.
The whole paternal/ cancer thing was a great example when the Reality distortion field was turned on himself.
Anyone suggesting that this man was a ti user after reading his biography should get them self mentally tested.
I am that convinced.

This isn't a way to "claim" Steve Jobs.
He was an extremely insecure, sociopathic person.
He tortured his workers... 

All in all, he was a unhealthy ENFP with borderline traits and abandonment issues.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I understand that F types can certainly work in the tech industry (I've known F dominant scientists, etc.), but just on a Jungian level, he doesn't resonate with the Te-Fi mode of operation. I know you weren't addressing me, but just wanted to throw that out there to get the message out about how retarded stereotypes are.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> For the millionth time.... Have you red the biography?
> You base the typing completely on his public image.
> On the surface you can see his Ne and due to his area of profession people automatically assume that he is ENTP.
> 
> ...


ok, you're convinced. I see it differently. if you understood how Ti works, you'd see Ti-Fe all over. you do realize ENTP's are called the Visionaries for a reason, right?


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

gingertonic said:


> ok, you're convinced. I see it differently. if you understood how Ti works, you'd see Ti-Fe all over. you do realize ENTP's are called the Visionaries for a reason, right?


Stupid reasoning. I know dimwit ENTPs. At least argue from the standpoint of personality, rather than propaganda about Jobs' status in the world.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I never said he was an Fe dom, he's an Fe tert (little difference, really, other than ego focus). Lovey-dovey has nothing to do with Jung types at all (most of the ENFPs I know don't come off this way - some of the ENTPs I know tend to come off more this way, due to Fe). I think the Fe types are much more straight-forward when it comes to motivational statements/sentiments, since Fe is extraverted and objective, while Fi is subjective. I recommend you study the functions more than the stereotypes (most of the stereotypes have little to no basis in reality). Their felt convictions are strongly internal, while ENTPs' strong convictions are strongly externalized and action-oriented.


I know of the functions and tert doesn't have the power you speak of.
If ENTP's Fe would ahve that kind of power, than what would ENFP's Te have?
It's the relief function, a function that backs up our dom and aux.

That you would even suggest ENTP's being more inspirational than ENFP in general is something I have to disagree with strongly.
That would be like saying ENFP's are more logical than ENTP's.

With Fi you develop ideals, value/belief systems, "codes", personal morals. 
When lead by Ne, it is a great tool for understanding human nature and how people work.

I have been told by many friends that I have an ability to greatly motivate them.
I first started delve into mbti in may of this year and these are things I have known about myself my whole life.
I'm not the most charming person but my enthusiasm and ability to inspire others have made people follow my lead through out my whole life.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Stupid reasoning. I know dimwit ENTPs. At least argue from the standpoint of personality, rather than propaganda about Jobs' status in the world.


look past my literal language please. I already covered this. Jobs had Ti not Fi.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> I know of the functions and tert doesn't have the power you speak of.
> If ENTP's Fe would ahve that kind of power, than what would ENFP's Te have?
> It's the relief function, a function that backs up our dom and aux.
> 
> ...


Yup, my Fi definitely works. There's nothing in Jung that says the auxiliary functions are limited by anything. The only one with control issues is the inferior. MBTI puts limits on functions for no reason, basically. I know Te dominant leaders that can charm the pants off of people also. Apparently, you're looking at type through a scope of limiting biases and persona (leadership is a persona by-and-large). I know ENTPs that are interested in how people work for leadership purposes also. ENTPs and ENFPs aren't really that different beyond the orientation of the aux. functions. I do know some ENFPs that are more logical than ENTPs - I know some ENTPs that are almost incoherent.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

gingertonic said:


> look past my literal language please. I already covered this. Jobs had Ti not Fi.


I agree with you. But you're just going to make your argument worse with this Hussein character with your last point. This thread is an out-of-control mess as it is with unsubstantiated opinions flying amok.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> look past my literal language please. I already covered this. Jobs had Ti not Fi.


You absolutely nothing to back this claim.

Ohh and WOz was faaaar from a INTJ.
How the hell do you get INTj from?
WoZ was a feeler as well.
From the Biography I would guess ISFP.
Woz was a sympathetic and shy guy and a very non confrontational person.
When Steve would go to far with his bullying Woz would stand up for other people.
When Apple was about to go public, he *gave *out so much stock to different engineers in apple.
When Steve refuse to give stocks to a friend who had been with apple from the beginning, Woz gave some
of his own to stock to the guy.

Woz was also know for his huge love for animals and children.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I agree with you. But you're just going to make your argument worse with this Hussein character with your last point. This thread is an out-of-control mess as it is with unsubstantiated opinions flying amok.


So you think Steve is a Ti user?
Instead of dwelling on stereotypes tell me what makes you think Ti over Fi.
And no, I don't buy the tert Fe explanation.

Did that "crazy inventor type" explanation by gingertonic convince you?
Here I thought you hated stereotypes and I don't know a bigger one than the ENTP "crazy inventor" stereotype. :wink:


(haha for the billionth time read the goddamn biography)


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> So you think Steve is a Ti user?
> Instead of dwelling on stereotypes tell me what makes you think Ti over Fi.
> And no, I don't buy the tert Fe explanation.
> 
> ...


No stereotypes convinced me. I just have a strong understanding of cognitive functions, if I do say so myself. I've thought he was an ENTP for years. I've read the biography also. You're operating on persona typing 100%. Anyone can have the persona you seem to allude to.


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## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> First of Steve wasn't much of a engineer or a programmer, he was the idea and design guy, the visionary.
> To Steve technology was something spiritual to him.
> 
> Steve opting for alternative treatment with herbs and meditation instead of removing the cancer with a swift operation...
> ...


Um, ENTPs aren't Ti doms. If you think ENFPs are the only ones with this irrational Ne'esque take towards the universe you are probably referring to, rather than Fi, you are very mistaken.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> You absolutely nothing to back this claim.
> 
> Ohh and WOz was faaaar from a INTJ.
> How the hell do you get INTj from?
> ...





Hussein Muhammed said:


> So you think Steve is a Ti user?
> Instead of dwelling on stereotypes tell me what makes you think Ti over Fi.
> And no, I don't buy the tert Fe explanation.
> 
> ...


Ok, a few things.

1. Stereotypes exist for a reason. ENTP's didn't get the Visionary moniker for having un-Visionary-like qualities. Dominant Ne and auxiliary Ti is an idea-creating machine.
2. For someone who hates stereotypes, you're using stereotypical behaviors to try to type a dead guy, when the only true way to type someone is for them to type themselves.
3. For someone who hates stereotypes, you certainly are hooked on the fact that 1. ENFP's ARE actually stereotypically great inspirers and 2. you fit that stereotype.
4. I'm sensing some projection. You want Jobs to have Fi because a) you want to be the same type as Steve Jobs b) you have a personal bias for Fi or c) you don't want to be wrong
5. Again, if you UNDERSTOOD Ti, how it works with Fe, and how that interaction is different from Fi, let alone Fi-Te, you'd realize that most of what you describe in Jobs as Fi is actually either Ti-Fe or just Fe in the absence of Ti. For example:



> _Steve irrationally denying paternal DNA test of his daughter._


When Ti is overwhelmed with stress and is unable to work properly, an ENTP defaults to Fe, which can present as _anger and irrational decision making_. So, please, explain how this is Fi.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

gingertonic said:


> Ok, a few things.
> 
> 1. Stereotypes exist for a reason. ENTP's didn't get the Visionary moniker for having un-Visionary-like qualities. Dominant Ne and auxiliary Ti is an idea-creating machine.
> 2. For someone who hates stereotypes, you're using stereotypical behaviors to try to type a dead guy, when the only true way to type someone is for them to type themselves.
> ...


3. I agree with you here. Being inspirational is 100% pure subjectivity (it's 100% in the eye of the beholder - just because you're so-and-so type (or in the case of Hussein, a persona) doesn't mean that people are supposed to find you "inspirational" - I know a ton of ENFPs that don't even come close to being inspirational - in fact, I barely find Steve Jobs inspirational, other than I like Apple computers and Pixar movies - he strikes me as narcissistic and irrational, in spite of his abilities, which related to complexes he had from childhood, not type)

4. I don't agree that F = irrational decision-making. F is a rational function. Anything that Steve would've done that is irrational would probably just have to do with complexes he had, not type. Complexes are not type. Everyone has complexes - in fact, we're ruled by them, not type.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> 4. I don't agree that F = irrational decision-making. F is a rational function. Anything that Steve would've done that is irrational would probably just have to do with complexes he had, not type. Complexes are not type. Everyone has complexes - in fact, we're ruled by them, not type.


I meant irrational compared to an ENTP's preferred Ti decision making. F decisions seem quite rational to F users. 

An example to clarify what I meant is this: My INFJ mom and I are arguing. She keeps avoiding the questions I ask her while I refuse to give her any emotional ground to work with. My Ti is telling me the whole time to stay calm and be reasonable, until I become so stressed out that my Ti logic fails and I go with an emotional reaction - I shout, make her feel bad because I want her to feel that emotion as payback for stressing me out. All of these things are irrational to me. Shouting doesn't accomplish anything and becoming spiteful is obviously going to really hurt my mom. Why would I do these things? Because emotion confounds me and I keep it locked away until there is too much and it all bursts out.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

gingertonic said:


> I meant irrational compared to an ENTP's preferred Ti decision making. F decisions seem quite rational to F users.
> 
> An example to clarify what I meant is this: My INFJ mom and I are arguing. She keeps avoiding the questions I ask her while I refuse to give her any emotional ground to work with. My Ti is telling me the whole time to stay calm and be reasonable, until I become so stressed out that my Ti logic fails and I go with an emotional reaction - I shout, make her feel bad because I want her to feel that emotion as payback for stressing me out. All of these things are irrational to me. Shouting doesn't accomplish anything and becoming spiteful is obviously going to really hurt my mom. Why would I do these things? Because emotion confounds me and I keep it locked away until there is too much and it all bursts out.


Emotion is not the F function at all. All types can be emotional. Ti wouldn't be behind you staying calm and reasonable - that would actually be your F function at work doing it's job evaluating. F evaluates, T is conceptual.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> Ok, a few things.
> 
> 1. Stereotypes exist for a reason. ENTP's didn't get the Visionary moniker for having un-Visionary-like qualities. Dominant Ne and auxiliary Ti is an idea-creating machine.
> 2. For someone who hates stereotypes, you're using stereotypical behaviors to try to type a dead guy, when the only true way to type someone is for them to type themselves.
> ...


I hate stereotypes, yes .
Stereotypes that portray the group as one thing.
The stereotype I'm referring to is ENFP can't possibly do anything involving intellectual pursuits, or at least very unlikely.
That is a stereotype I resent. 
But in general ENFP are know to be great motivators, something Steve is many times described as in the biography.
ENTP and ENFP are very similar and hard to tell apart on the surface.
That is why you need to dig deeper than a couple of videos.

Why would Fe make the decisions to abandon a child?
My argument was more of the negative effects the "reality distortion field" had (Ne-Fi).
Also this reflects on his own abandonment issues and the mental gymnastics that Fi can sometimes do.'
As I said he was unhealthy and sociopathic, in this situation the Fi could have justified it to him.
Wouldn't tert Fe compel him to man up and take "social" responsibility?

Steve was known to be extremely emotional, crying often and constantly expressing his feelings.
People said he could connect with people on a deeper lvl.
He could immediately spot a persons weak point 
and where to stroke their ego (Ne-Fi).

As a manager Steve was dictatorial and moody.
He would bully people or persuade them to see his point of view (Fi-Te).
Whenever people disagreed with him they had to get into fiery arguments with him (again Fi-Te) 


Would I like Steve jobs to be ENFP?
Sure, if it can prove to people that there are serious ENFP's out there and there is feelers in the tech business. 
But ont he flipside you are doing the same.
You want Steve to be ENTP and you have very little to back up that claim, being that you haven't red the biography(for the trillionth time hahaha  ).


Let me ask you this....
Are ENTP's more emotionally expressive than ENFP in general? 

I know ENTP's IRL, and they have by far a much harder time showing feelings than ENFP's.
Without a question.

Also if we are using stereotypes... Wouldn't you think that ENTP's are more likely to use humor in their commercials?
The early Apple commercials had a inspirational/emotional messages in them which Steve was behind.
He wrote "Here's to the crazy ones".


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> No stereotypes convinced me. I just have a strong understanding of cognitive functions, if I do say so myself. I've thought he was an ENTP for years. I've read the biography also. You're operating on persona typing 100%. Anyone can have the persona you seem to allude to.


O really?
Tell me about the book.
What was teh "reality distortion field"?
How did Steve get his job at Atari?
What was Steve jobs so good at when it came to managerial work?

Again i think you are overstating the power of the Tert completely.
It doesn't dominate your personality in the way you seem to think.

Yeah, people typed his surface persona as ENTP.
Some people even typed him as ISTP (WTF!).
All based on the public image.

Persona Typing?
The first thing I noticed when reading the Biography was that he was Ne dom.
Than you noticed his Fi and Te.
He was a Narcissist because his adoptive parents kept telling him that he was special and "chosen".

All the his talk about persona typing.
Would you care to explain it plz?


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> I know ENTP's IRL, and they have by far a much harder time showing feelings than ENFP's.
> Without a question.


What do you mean by feelings? Actually, this might be the difference between Fi and Fe, where Fi is more about showing a person's true feelings, while Fe is transpersonal and shows concern for the other person's feelings and such over their own, so their own might come off as well concealed. Regardless, Fe types exude more of a present warmth and regard for other people than Fi types much of the time, although extraverts in general tend to be more keen to take notice of other people as well. Frankly, the Fe types of all stripes tend to come off as more expressive and predictable to me than the Fi types. Some F dominants can be some of the coldest people on the planet, according to Jung, where their feeling isn't very visible at all, due to being really well-controlled with it. Inspiration has nothing to do with F dominance. I'm serious, I've seen plenty of very warm tert. Fe types - I can't deny my own experiences to fit people's misinterpretations of typology (or stupid stereotypes that circulate on the internet). No, being an F doesn't automatically make you a "nice" person, nor does being an F mean anything about being motivational. These are all 100% separate concepts in psychology. Frankly, at a distance, telling someone's type not based on their *reasoning tendencies* is 100% impossible. I've seen tons upon tons of tert. F types who look like F dominants, until you get a closer glance at their reasoning.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Emotion is not the F function at all. All types can be emotional. Ti wouldn't be behind you staying calm and reasonable - that would actually be your F function at work doing it's job evaluating. F evaluates, T is conceptual.


But both are judging functions, so what is the difference between F and T in terms of their action? What do you mean T is "conceptual?" The way I see it, F makes value judgments and T makes merit judgments. So if I'm stressed to the point that I can't use my Ti to make merit judgments, I default to my less-preferred Fe to make value judgments - which, in the heat of the moment and anger, would be irrational, right? Am I making sense?

Oh, also - Steve Jobs =/= Apple. Lots of your Fi-Te examples could just as easily be chalked up to a superiority complex (I'm bogarting the complex topic, sorry).

And this doesn't negate the possibility that he's a weird ENTP with Ne-Ti and a strong Fi.

But really. Let's be reasonable here. Nobody is saying that ENFP's can't be techie. At least, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that the idea behind Apple Computers was a single, elegant solution. Apple doesn't have a huge range of products. It creates a solution to a problem or a product to fill a void, and then it constantly improves upon that single idea. That's Ti. Ti is particular about which ideas it prefers, but when it finds the idea it likes, it latches on and continuously deconstructs and rebuilds that idea. Combine that with a dominant Ne, and you have the setup for a "visionary" archetype - seeing possibilities, sifting through and finding the best one and then improving it.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

Whether he was a ENTP or ENFP, the guy was a massive idealist.

Liza and Apple 2 was under development during the same time and were released close to each other.
Don't pretend to that ENTP aren't scattered.
Both ENFP and ENTP love to have multiple things going on at the same time.
Is that Ne.

Also let not pretend ENTP's and ENFP are so different.
They aren't.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> Also let not pretend ENTP's and ENFP are so different.
> They aren't.


Then why are you so concerned with deciding if Jobs is an ENTP or ENFP?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> ENFPs are not always particularly outwardly warm people - Fi in general is the function that tends to come off as colder than Fe. ENTPs tend to come off as more outwardly warm on average, but of course, this all depends on a person's persona also. The T and F in ENTPs and ENFPs really doesn't differentiate them, other than the orientations of those aux. functions. That's pretty much the only way to tell them apart.


I agree. I have an ENFP friend and would I know she's not so much into science and theory I'd start doubting her as an ENTP. She can become pretty cold, especially once she puts that Te on to support her Fi and Ne. There is also a slight difference in levels of quirk between ENTPs and ENFPs as ENFPs tend to tone it down a fair notch because they are far more self-aware of how they feel they are being perceived and if this perception does not fit with their internal worldview of how to be, you will not see an ENFP pull pranks like ENTPs do.


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## Bumblyjack (Nov 18, 2011)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> I know of the functions and tert doesn't have the power you speak of.
> If ENTP's Fe would ahve that kind of power, than what would ENFP's Te have?
> It's the relief function, a function that backs up our dom and aux.


No, this is not true of the tertiary function. Both the auxiliary and tertiary functions are supporting (or "relief") of the dominant function. One is not subordinate to the other, as they operate in different arenas (extraverted versus introverted) and engage in judgments in completely different ways (F making overall evaluations and T piecing factors together to make conclusions). Additionally, in an extravert the tertiary function is much more readily expressed in the world due to its outward orientation. This is why, for example, my serious and driven ENTJ mentor is pleasantly surprised that a laid-back, off-beat, free spirit like myself has things to say that he deems worthwhile and insightful, sees eye-to-eye with him on many issues, and is a person worth his time. We have that strong common ground in Extraverted Thinking even though we have completely different outlooks on life.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

The person I was responding to was referring to ENFP as extroverted INTJ's and claimed that tert Fe was more "inspirational" than aux Fi due to it's extroverted nature.

Let me ask you this.... Do you see Ti or Fi in those videos?
That's what this tread is about.
The poster I responded to claimed the videos were tert Fe..

Also it seems like I'm the only person on this tread to have actually red the biography.
I haven't heard any relevant explanation of why he is ENTp, except for being a creative visionary.
I get the "He just is" vibes from many posts on this tread.

It seems that people can't imagine a ENFP in that kind of a position within the tech industry.


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

No, I didn't see Fi. It's another OP projection thread.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

atypeofuser said:


> No, I didn't see Fi. It's another OP projection thread.


What do you see then?
If you have to compare between Fi and Ti, wdoes the video portray more?
Steve talking about ideals and values, must be Ti right?
Also... Why would Steve Jobs be a Fe user over a Te user?
Steve had an unbalanced c Te that would overpower his Fi.
The way he would interrupt meetings and scream "this is shit" and his domineering style of management .

Even with a underdeveloped Fi it still has significant effect.
It leaves on with a bad sense of identity.

Steve's whole trip to India and time in the commune was a way to try to find himself.
The Fi would compel him to do so.

To me it sounds like Steve had a bit of a NE-Te loop.
He Fi was still there, giving him ideals and base values but it would be overpowered by his Te.



> *ENFP/ESTJ: Ne/Te or Te/Ne--Borderline Personality Disorder. The ENFP I described above may have been one of these types. They simultaneously desire to control and dazzle others with their extraordinary leadership and grandiose performances. For the ENFP, this tends to take the form of insisting on consistent, scheduled attention from others for his/her artistic or creative gifts, while for the ESTJ it tends to manifest itself in terms of indignation when others refuse to follow every detail of the user's "visionary" leadership style. This combination, ironically, makes the user extremely dependent upon others for meaning, never really finding a sense of internal balance, no matter how hard he works to create and delegate. While Te leads these types to desire structure and discipline, Ne continually contradicts it by insisting on impulsive displays of creative freedom. Often self-denigrating over the inability to control Ne's impulsive explorations, Te will go to any lengths to keep the user in a position of power and influence, where others must defer to his authority.*


This sounds pretty much a lot like Steve's management style.
He was extremely bossy and would be overcritical of his workers, a complete control freak.
This is why Steve have been confused as ENTJ many times.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

I have not seen a single explanation of why Steve would be ENTP over ENFp except for GinaTonics "crazy inventor" post.

Will anyone present "proof" that Steve was a Fe user over Te user instead of saying "he just are" ?
Anyone?


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> I have not seen a single explanation of why Steve would be ENTP over ENFp except for GinaTonics "crazy inventor" post.
> 
> Will anyone present "proof" that Steve was a Fe user over Te user instead of saying "he just are" ?
> Anyone?


No. You are making the claim that he had Fi, so you have the burden of proof to prove he had Fi and Te.

Also you could just as easily associate Jobs' management style with the ENTJ Te-Se loop. Your problem is that you have a personal investment in Jobs being an ENFP (and I'm still not sure why). I think he's an ENTP, but I can also see that he could be an ENTJ, though it is very unlikely.

Also, I think a key problem in your attempt to type Jobs is that you are using footage of him speaking in public, trying to sell his product. In my opinion, you are more likely to get accurate results if you step back and observe his behavior over a much longer sample period, which would account for anomalies and strange, out-of-type outbursts. Thus, my analysis linking Apple Computers to Ne-Ti. People can choose to act in ways that contradict their type, but their type is always going to come out and be apparent over the long term, especially in projects.

Also, ENTP's can have a strong knack for chameleoning as other types if necessary, which could also explain why you think you see Fi in Jobs.

Deductive reasoning. Methodically eliminate all possible answers. The last one has to be correct or the logic was faulty.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> No. You are making the claim that he had Fi, so you have the burden of proof to prove he had Fi and Te.
> 
> Also you could just as easily associate Jobs' management style with the ENTJ Te-Se loop. Your problem is that you have a personal investment in Jobs being an ENFP (and I'm still not sure why). I think he's an ENTP, but I can also see that he could be an ENTJ, though it is very unlikely.
> 
> ...


First of, you didn't seem to read the OP because I specifically said another poster I had a discussion with, used these videos as "proof" that Steve was a Ti user.
I didn't use them as "proof" that he was ENFP rather I thought the videos strengthened my case .
I base the typing completely on the biography.

Right back at you my friend.
You can't give me a relavant explanation of why he is ENTp and it's clear that you want him to be.
Also I base the typing from reading the biography, something you don't seem to have.

Wouldn't ENTJ's be closer to a ENFP than a ENTP?
Chameleoning other types?
What? chameleoning a ENFP with Ne-Te loop or ENTJ for over 20 years?
That sounds extreeemly far fetched my friend.

There is no proof that he had a Ne-Fe loop aka Narcissistic personality disorder.
Yes he had a big ego but he wasn't afraid of showing weakness, something Narcissist are.
The guy would cry in meetings and share his feelings to anyone.

Judging by your responses through out this tread, it's almost as if you won't consider Steve a ENFp.
I base that on the fact that you have absolutely nothing to back your argument up but yet you claim Steve as a ENTP tooth and nail.

You want him to be ENTP but you have yet to given a explanation of why he is.
Pot cattle black my friend.


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## Monsieur Dini (May 7, 2012)

Hey *gingertonic.!*
Don't take our little discussion the wrong way.
You're a smart guy, I can see that.
I'm having great fun and you are really keeping me on my toes.
This is the reason why I love hanging out in the ENTP sub forum.
very stimulating 

Maybe we will have the chance to do this some more on another tread.
I'm going to be away for a little while, a couple of days or so.
So guys.... don't flood this tread while I'm gone .


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I agree. I have an ENFP friend and would I know she's not so much into science and theory I'd start doubting her as an ENTP. She can become pretty cold, especially once she puts that Te on to support her Fi and Ne. There is also a slight difference in levels of quirk between ENTPs and ENFPs as ENFPs tend to tone it down a fair notch because they are far more self-aware of how they feel they are being perceived and if this perception does not fit with their internal worldview of how to be, you will not see an ENFP pull pranks like ENTPs do.


ENTPs and ENFPs are probably equally aware of their feelings (what you're considering feeling isn't the feeling function at all - everyone gets self-conscious, this has absolutely nothing to do with type). I think the difference in "quirk" that you're noticing is one of an Fe/Fi difference - the Fe types are less self-conscious about their true feelings because they resort to a transpersonal method of feeling communication (Fe), so often, ENTPs and even Fe dominants for that matter, have little to no issue putting their feelings out on the line to be goofy or whatever, since they're transpersonal feeling expressions that conform to socially acceptable norms. All of the Fe types, even the inferior ones, are quite similar to each other really - the Fe and Fi types tend to be very different from each other in terms of how they direct their personal focus. ESFJs and ENTPs are actually some of the most similar types out there on a cognitive function level. I've seen high levels of goofiness among both.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Hussein Muhammed said:


> The person I was responding to was referring to ENFP as extroverted INTJ's and claimed that tert Fe was more "inspirational" than aux Fi due to it's extroverted nature.
> 
> Let me ask you this.... Do you see Ti or Fi in those videos?
> That's what this tread is about.
> ...


Order of functions doesn't matter in how they come off. A tert. Fe type can easily look like a dominant Fe type, until the person's real ego goals get revealed. I just called Fe in general more "inspirational" than Fi, largely because it's actually communicable to the outer world and focused on objective ways to communicate it's intent (e.g. think Oprah, MLK, etc.). Fi can sound incoherent to people outside of the Fi user and like all introverted functions, be hard to follow, thus, it is hard for it to have a strong direct impact on other people. I question your understanding of Fe over Fi.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> ENTPs and ENFPs are probably equally aware of their feelings (what you're considering feeling isn't the feeling function at all - everyone gets self-conscious, this has absolutely nothing to do with type). I think the difference in "quirk" that you're noticing is one of an Fe/Fi difference - the Fe types are less self-conscious about their true feelings because they resort to a transpersonal method of feeling communication (Fe), so often, ENTPs and even Fe dominants for that matter, have little to no issue putting their feelings out on the line to be goofy or whatever, since they're transpersonal feeling expressions that conform to socially acceptable norms. All of the Fe types, even the inferior ones, are quite similar to each other really - the Fe and Fi types tend to be very different from each other in terms of how they direct their personal focus. ESFJs and ENTPs are actually some of the most similar types out there on a cognitive function level. I've seen high levels of goofiness among both.


I disagree as I think Fi is a very important cognitive function in being able to discern and identify one's feelings. Just compare Fi dom/aux to Fe dom/aux. Fi dom/aux are much more aware of their own feelings and what makes them feel, what they feel and how they feel whereas Fe dom/aux are more aware of what others feel, why they feel and how they feel. Fe users have issues in identifying their feelings as they tend to adopt the feelings of others but Fi users have issues expressing their feelings because of the abstract nature of them since F is introverted. Fe users do have a easier time to express feelings yes, but their feelings tend not necessarily reflect them as people.

Furthermore, all people can use Fi. Fi is what creates a sense of self, ergo the portion you say that ENTPs can be aware of their feelings. Of course they can. The likelihood that they are as aware of their feelings compared to the ENFP is however not as likely because they are more likely to rely on Fe than Fi.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I disagree as I think Fi is a very important cognitive function in being able to discern and identify one's feelings. Just compare Fi dom/aux to Fe dom/aux. Fi dom/aux are much more aware of their own feelings and what makes them feel, what they feel and how they feel whereas Fe dom/aux are more aware of what others feel, why they feel and how they feel. Fe users have issues in identifying their feelings as they tend to adopt the feelings of others but Fi users have issues expressing their feelings because of the abstract nature of them since F is introverted. Fe users do have a easier time to express feelings yes, but their feelings tend not necessarily reflect them as people.
> 
> Furthermore, all people can use Fi. Fi is what creates a sense of self, ergo the portion you say that ENTPs can be aware of their feelings. Of course they can. The likelihood that they are as aware of their feelings compared to the ENFP is however not as likely because they are more likely to rely on Fe than Fi.


This is all exactly what I was getting at. Fe is no less feelings than Fi, just a different mode of reflection. Fi is not self identity - it works with this, but isn't the same thing. It's not as complex and all-encompassing as people make it out to be (people around here make it into an identity complex for some reason).


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Dude did you read what I wrote?

I said he could possibly be an ENTJ because his management style strikes me as Te-Se, not Ne-Fe or Ne-Te. However I also think this is really unlikely as the core theme of what Apple has become under Jobs is a single, elegant, logical solution to a problem. That is Ti. 

And if you evaluate Mac OS since he had come back to Apple in addition to what he did with and for iOS from a slightly philosophical but also psychological standpoint, I see the Ne-Ti thought process. Always seeking new, different solutions and improvements to what already is. He definitely exhibits NT behaviors - constant evaluation, constant improvement, all at an almost breakneck speed.


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