# How do women feel about forty something men who are still virgins?



## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I'm a 43 year old virgin and I'm genuinely curious. I'm not desperate, and I'm not interested in any of you taking my virginity, so don't worry. But please say what you really think; I can handle it. I already know I'm incompatible with the vast majority of women for various reasons, and I fully accept that. My feelings won't be hurt. Don't let the fact that I'm a Fi dom fool you.

But anyways, now that that's out of the way: How would you generally feel romantically about an older male virgin? How would you feel sexually? How would you even approach sex with him, if at all? How would you approach him romantically, if at all?


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

It would not be an issue for me. In fact, it would be refreshing. I’m not that sexually experienced either (only ever had 1 sexual partner). I just can’t sleep with someone unless there are feelings involved. So for me, it would be a good thing. Maybe even fun to discover things together, assuming there’s going to be a relationship first.

I know how it feels like to be a virgin and not be in a hurry to lose it. And for others to think that’s odd (or “boring” or “prudish”) so no negative reactions from me.


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## Astrida88 (Jun 6, 2019)

You are too old for me anyway, since I prefer younger or same age guys.
But for staying virgin at that age...
Are you waiting till marriage or something? Are you that ugly? Are you that socially incapable? Are you that picky?
There is certainly a reason, and the underlying reason worries me more than you having no sexual intercourse before.

As for sex - I don't have much experience either but I would approach normally. Some cuddling, some teasing, some sex. Virgin, no virgin - little difference for me. If you are simply shy but not that bad looking or fat I might find it quite refreshing, actually. I had a shy boyfriend before and his shyness in bed was cute.

But if you are virgin at that age you will probably have trouble with erection due to stress during your first time so it will be an awkward situation for both you and your partner. I had a relationship with a 27yo virgin before and that's basically how it went. I didn't care that much but it damaged the mood and I needed to emotionally comfort him because he was mentally devastated.

If you are a virgin at that age you should probably look for a woman that is on the asexual side so lack of erection doesn't turn her off and that is looking for a nice guy to take care of her children from ex marriage or something. Not like you have much chance getting your own kids with a young woman because you will be not their type. And at 40+ most woman already have children and those who don't are mostly the ones who don't want any or can't have any.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Astrida88 said:


> Are you waiting till marriage or something? Are you that ugly? Are you that socially incapable? Are you that picky?


None of these things really. Though I didn't really learn any social skills until my 20's. Its really a long story with a whole lot of factors involved, and I'm not gonna attempt to explain it all. But just a few key factors are that I have a psychosis, don't work, don't plan on working, don't drive, and don't plan on driving.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

Astrida88 said:


> If you are a virgin at that age you should probably look for a woman that is on the asexual side so lack of erection doesn't turn her off and that is looking for a nice guy to take care of her children from ex marriage or something.


Wow is this terrible advice. No consideration for what OP actually wants. Also nonsense advice because trouble with erection does not imply little or no interest in sex, which is what's a compatible orientation for an asexual woman.


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## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

Ock said:


> But just a few key factors are that I have a psychosis, don't work, don't plan on working, don't drive, and don't plan on driving.


If your psychosis is held under control and nothing gives off that you have it, you don't have it. It is that easy. Having sex with a woman you never met can take between 1 hour up to 10-15 hours of interaction (it depends on a lot of factors). If you can spend 15 hours with someone without psychosis to kick in, all good. That's not a problem.

You don't need to work to have sex. You need money, but you don't need to work to have money, there are multiple ways of making money. If you can afford just some basic stuff like a night out, your employment status doesn't have anything to do with "not having sex". Sometimes it happens without spending any money at all (okay, just on condoms). It can be a lot about "_right place at the right time_".

You don't need to drive. I dated women who drove 120.000$ cars while I was riding a 100$ bicycle. You don't need to drive to have sex.
Maybe just for poor women. Look at women with money then.
DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY WOMEN in their 30s and 40s, WITH A LOT OF MONEY, are in "searching" of a partner? Just a normal man. Not something duper uber awesome. There are a lot. 
An unfucked woman + bad history of relationship/abusive partners = they don't want nothing else besides a normal man that can fuck them properly.

These aren't the real reasons for why you never had sex, for sure.
There are limiting beliefs that kept you down.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

impulsenine said:


> These aren't the real reasons for why you never had sex, for sure.


They are real reasons. They just aren't all the reasons. Explaining how I got to where I am would actually be really difficult because its really a whole shitload of reasons, for which I would have to basically write my life story and detail every single time I came close in any way to getting laid and any circumstances that stopped me. Its really extremely difficult to sum up in any way, and there may even be a lot more factors that I don't even realize because I'm ignorant of them.


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

Astrida88 said:


> If you are a virgin at that age you should probably look for a woman that is on the asexual side so lack of erection doesn't turn her off and that is looking for a nice guy to take care of her children from ex marriage or something. Not like you have much chance getting your own kids with a young woman because you will be not their type. And at 40+ most woman already have children and those who don't are mostly the ones who don't want any or can't have any.


This whole part seems unnecessary.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Ock said:


> They are real reasons. They just aren't all the reasons. Explaining how I got to where I am would actually be really difficult because its really a whole shitload of reasons, for which I would have to basically write my life story and detail every single time I came close in any way to getting laid and any circumstances that stopped me. Its really extremely difficult to sum up in any way, and there may even be a lot more factors that I don't even realize because I'm ignorant of them.







Oh I'm up for hearing it if I may... (?)


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

I've actually known a few. One was a minister friend who had yet to marry. The other was basically asexual and just had no interest. I've also known a few dudes who weren't quite in their 40s but were well over 25+ and into their 30s (again mostly religious) 

If I were single, it wouldn't be a deal breaker, but it would really depend on how healthy their attitude towards it and the reasons behind still being a virgin, their openness on sex in general, if our libidos matched up etc.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Ock said:


> But anyways, now that that's out of the way: How would you generally feel romantically about an older male virgin? How would you feel sexually?


This guy has to be pretty marvellous to begin with, If I like him enough for sex to be on the table (bad phrasing?) it woudn't make a difference to how I feel


> How would you even approach sex with him, if at all? How would you approach him romantically, if at all?


Wine & dine & all that boring stuff probably


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Astrida88 said:


> You are too old for me anyway, since I prefer younger or same age guys.
> But for staying virgin at that age...
> Are you waiting till marriage or something? Are you that ugly? Are you that socially incapable? Are you that picky?
> There is certainly a reason, and the underlying reason worries me more than you having no sexual intercourse before.
> ...


Maybe you need to be more direct? 🙄😒

Yes I was being sarcastic
Smh


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Ock said:


> I'm a 43 year old virgin and I'm genuinely curious. I'm not desperate, and I'm not interested in any of you taking my virginity, so don't worry. But please say what you really think; I can handle it. I already know I'm incompatible with the vast majority of women for various reasons, and I fully accept that. My feelings won't be hurt. Don't let the fact that I'm a Fi dom fool you.
> 
> But anyways, now that that's out of the way: How would you generally feel romantically about an older male virgin? How would you feel sexually? How would you even approach sex with him, if at all? How would you approach him romantically, if at all?


And also dude - and this is going to fly in the face of popular convention - but fuck these mouth-breathers:

Virginity is a precious thing - it makes everything more important.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

I recon virginity is a private matter. There is nothing wrong with being or not being a virgin. The danger can begin when people put too much emphasis on it in one way or another! Look at somewhere countries in the world where people might kill you if you should be raped and loose your virginity. Does it really matter?! NO!!! It is such a stupid thing to waste time on. It has nothing to do with the quality of the personality! Instead of choosing to focus on the lack of physical experience people could also choose to view not having a virginity as just not being the type who sleeps around. Not having a virginity is not bad or good in my eyes at least, it just is what it is. It can -and should- be viewed both ways, as a neutral thing.


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## Angry-Spaghetti (Feb 25, 2021)

I'm not a woman, but I don't care when a guy tells me he's a virgin, which suprisingly doesn't happen too often ;D. It's your choice and you say you have your reasons and that's enough, If it's enough for you then that's all that should matter. If a women you're dating finds this out and doesn't like it, then it wasn't meant to be my man. There are plenty of women who understand why someone wouldn't have lost their virginity. A lot of people have emotional issues or have had bad experiences with molestation in the past. If I was a girl I wouldn't judge you, we all have our reasons. Hell, I can barely be intimate with people as is, I just don't want them to be uncomfortable because I have been in that state in the past. 

Good luck my man. You are enough as you are! 🙏


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

People will try and make you feel bad about whatever they can. Most of the time it's so they can feel better about themselves.

I remember the dude on here who tried to shame me for getting married young, having kids young and for only being with my husband. I just laughed at him and told him shame only works if you feel you've done something wrong. As long as you live by your own principles everything else and everybody else and their opinions, can go fuck themselves.

We need to let go of the idea that there is a certain threshold for these things and if you don't loose your virginity by a certain age you're _insert negative stereotype_ when it's a very personal and individual thing.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

Miharu said:


> This whole part seems unnecessary.


That whole reply makes me wish we had a "Bless your heart" emoji


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

Queen of Cups said:


> That whole reply makes me wish we had a "Bless your heart" emoji


A lot of assumptions in one dense paragraph.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Ock said:


> How would you generally feel romantically about an older male virgin? How would you feel sexually?


It would not hold any weight in terms of romantic or sexual attraction, although I'd make attempts to be considerate to your feelings on the subject.



Ock said:


> How would you even approach sex with him, if at all? How would you approach him romantically, if at all?


I would approach like I would with anybody I'm interested in and see how it goes. Everyone has their own unique history when it comes to intimacy, so it depends entirely on the dynamic created at the point in time we come together. I'd say that your concern over how someone else might feel would be heartening, though.

No matter where you are at in life, if someone cannot accept your past or who you are, they will only cause misery. If anything, I'd encourage you to have faith there are women out there that aren't going to judge you for being out-of-the-norm (and some might even find it refreshing, often being out-of-the-norm ourselves ).


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Outside of my age range. Even 5 years difference is pushing it for me, they'd have to be an exceptional guy to get me to go 5-6 years apart.

I think virginity in guys my own age is cute. I end up wanting to be first. It's also a bit nice to teach them to do things (to me) my way, lmao...like some jobs hire rookies to train their employees their way.

For some girls it brings out a bit of a side they might otherwise never have (being more top / dominant). It basically them want to rock the virgin's world, I guess you could say.


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## Vanille (Jun 12, 2021)

I mean if a guy your age is a virgin because he's a desperate creepy incel that no one wants, yeah that's a problem... If it's for any other reason, it's perfectly fine to be virgin!

As long as you're happy and healthy that's what matters, don't let anyone tell you otherwise or manipulate you into sex.

- fellow adult virgin and celibate (but female, and gay) actually my first impression was "that's so cool" cause I certainly feel like an alien sometimes and men especially seem so sex obsessed, it comforts me that not all of you are.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Vanille said:


> I mean if a guy your age is a virgin because he's a desperate creepy incel that no one wants,


I think this is one thing people will assume when a man is a virgin. Or they'll assume that he has no life, friends, social skills, is a naive person, isn't happy, etc., etc. All stereotypes I just mentioned don't actually fit me.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Ock said:


> I think this is one thing people will assume when a man is a virgin. Or they'll assume that he has no life, friends, social skills, is a naive person, isn't happy, etc., etc. All stereotypes I just mentioned don't actually fit me.


I think you are in the category of one if the least incel I know 😄


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)

I'm assuming you don't lead your interactions with, _"I'm a 43 year old virgin." _so I don't really understand how that's supposed to affect someone sexually; or determine how they feel romantically. I mean, if you're getting to know someone and start to become romantic, the feelings are already starting naturally, and any sexual desire one has would be building progressively within their own selves. Learning that the person of your affections is a virgin might come as a surprise or something in the moment, but by then the feelings and desire should have already been developed.

The other questions seem as though you're leading - or you plan in your head to lead - interactions with the fact that you're a virgin, so maybe that says more about how much emphasis you yourself are really placing on it opposed to how much others might care. If you're getting to know someone and after some time mention it, and they respond negatively, then that should tell you enough about that person and whether or not they're someone you want to lose your virginity to?? I mean, it's not like you have STD, which imo you should absolutely tell someone before engaging in a sexual relationship. It's like, telling them you're a virgin seems more for yourself to pre-excuse any performance issues. Though I suppose, if it comes up naturally as part of a conversation about amount of past partners or something, they're probably at least open to the idea of being sexual with you, so I don't see why it'd be a 'problem'.

Personally, I often think I was a much better person before I lost my virginity. Sex was more a fantasy and I myself a less 'corrupted' individual(in certain ways). People may say what they will about being 43 years old and a virgin, but to have a bit of that innocence or even pureness of ideas is something I envy.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

At least you have no regrets with the manner in which you lost it.


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)

Who me? You don't know that.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> Who me? You don't know that.


No, @Ock. Can't regret the manner you lose your virginity if you still retain it.


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Infinitus said:


> No, @Ock. Can't regret the manner you lose your virginity if you still retain it.



Sooo we need to get you drunk for the story? Or…

😇


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

littlewyng said:


> Sooo we need to get you drunk for the story? Or…
> 
> 😇


You really wanna know? I was 15, she was a very experienced 19 yo. Pile on the peer pressure, immature insecurities, & I didn't stand a chance. Shows how much I valued myself at that point, and later she would demonstrate how much she valued me too. Hence the regret.


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Awww that sucks a lot. 😢


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

littlewyng said:


> Awww that sucks a lot. 😢


I'm sure she initially had good intentions. It is what it is. You make your bed... 😏


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Yeah- and I think everyone at that age has horrible judgment plus peer pressure plus curiosity plus hormones. Always a fun combination. 🤣


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Infinitus said:


> You really wanna know? I was 15, she was a very experienced 19 yo. Pile on the peer pressure, immature insecurities, & I didn't stand a chance. Shows how much I valued myself at that point, and later she would demonstrate how much she valued me too. Hence the regret.


That's a felony for her in some places, plus having to register as a sex offender for the rest of her life. But she'd be less likely to get in trouble because she's female, and for some unknown reason it doesn't "matter" as much when a female does it.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Ock said:


> That's a felony for her in some places, plus having to register as a sex offender for the rest of her life. But she'd be less likely to get in trouble because she's female, and for some unknown reason it doesn't "matter" as much when a female does it.


Offcourse it does!
There is just way to o little focus on the boy side of the story yet, unfortunetly, but you men can be open and change such things, and if wimmen don't except it, then they are just gonna have to learn to deal with it.
It goes both ways. And yes 15 is way too young.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Electra said:


> Offcourse it does!
> There is just way to o little focus on the boy side of the story yet, unfortunetly, but you men can be open and change such things, and if wimmen don't except it, then they are just gonna have to learn to deal with it.
> It goes both ways. And yes 15 is way too young.


I wasn't saying it doesn't matter as much for female perpetrators. I was just referring to society's attitudes about it.

Also, did you ever notice the double standards for regular men versus rock stars? There's quite a few rock stars that were at least in their 20's when they fucked 14/15 year old girls. But people don't care if their heroes do that, while they'll ostracize any common man for doing that.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Ock said:


> I wasn't saying it doesn't matter as much for female perpetrators. I was just referring to society's attitudes about it.
> 
> Also, did you ever notice the double standards for regular men versus rock stars? There's quite a few rock stars that were at least in their 20's when they fucked 14/15 year old girls. But people don't care if their heroes do that, while they'll ostracize any common man for doing that.


I'll admit though that I really enjoy some of those rock stars' music. But that's all I enjoy. I don't look up to them in any way. @Electra


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

Ock said:


> That's a felony for her in some places, plus having to register as a sex offender for the rest of her life. But she'd be less likely to get in trouble because she's female, and for some unknown reason it doesn't "matter" as much when a female does it.


We were both teenagers doing teenage stuff. Who could resist a willing me? People should feel bad for her. She gave me amazing handjobs and blowjobs, and I didn't make her orgasm even the once.


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Nope, sorry @Infinitus you are stuck with our sympathy. Enjoy the incoming feels. 😁


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Infinitus said:


> We were both teenagers doing teenage stuff. Who could resist a willing me? People should feel bad for her. She gave me amazing handjobs and blowjobs, and I didn't make her orgasm even the once.


19 and 15 isn't that terrible. It could be a lot worse. The age of consent where I live is 18, but I believe in allowing a 17 year old to consent to an 18 year old at least, maybe even a 16 year old with a 19 year old. I actually think its wrong for an 18 year old to be labelled a sex offender for having consentual sex with a 17 year old, and that the 18 year old is the real victim in that case. Hell, when I was 18 I didn't even realize how much trouble I could get in for that, so I would've been a victim of the justice system imo.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

Ock said:


> 19 and 15 isn't that terrible. It could be a lot worse. The age of consent where I live is 18, but I believe in allowing a 17 year old to consent to an 18 year old at least, maybe even a 16 year old with a 19 year old. I actually think its wrong for an 18 year old to be labelled a sex offender for having consentual sex with a 17 year old, and that the 18 year old is the real victim in that case. Hell, when I was 18 I didn't even realize how much trouble I could get in for that, so I would've been a victim of the justice system imo.


Exactly. She’d just turned 19 and I was a few months from 16 (the age of consent in 🇬🇧), so I don’t get how those few months would make me more “able” to consent. She gets an A+ from me: 10 days minimum to let me decide, then repeatedly made sure I definitely wanted to do it. The minor regrets are all my own: I was too eager, didn’t value the importance, and to top it off, performed badly. Knowing people who are genuine victims of sexual abuse, including previous partners, this was nothing of the sort. Not even close. Sound girl.🧐


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

littlewyng said:


> Nope, sorry @Infinitus you are stuck with our sympathy. Enjoy the incoming feels. 😁


Bugger off. I don’t want your sympathy, brain slurper. 🤪


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Infinitus said:


> Bugger off. I don’t want your sympathy, brain slurper. 🤪


Don't knock her for that. Brains are actually tasty. Well okay, NOT human brains; cow and pig brains. They're like scrambled eggs, except brownish instead of yellow.


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Infinitus said:


> Bugger off. I don’t want your sympathy, brain slurper. 🤪


Bugger off? I brought out my best feels for you! got them out of the ziplock bag and everything! Geez.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

littlewyng said:


> Bugger off? I brought out my best feels for you! got them out of the ziplock bag and everything! Geez.


Did it look like this?










😜


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

There was a first time tales thread floating around awhile back.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

littlewyng said:


> Bugger off? I brought out my best feels for you! got them out of the ziplock bag and everything! Geez.


Am vewy sowwy. Want a hug? Actually I’m not giving you a choice. I’m not letting go until you stop giving me sympathy. 🤗


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Infinitus said:


> Am vewy sowwy. Want a hug? Actually I’m not giving you a choice. I’m not letting go until you stop giving me sympathy. 🤗


Sympathy blackmail. Respect.

um- ok you can let go now.
🙄


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

littlewyng said:


> Sympathy blackmail. Respect.
> 
> um- ok you can let go now.
> 🙄


That was too easy. Btw, “bugger off” is endearing where I’m from. Though I shouldn’t speak in dialect on an international forum.


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Ooooh. Yeah I forget also sometimes until someone goes, 'what the heck does that mean?'


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Ock said:


> I wasn't saying it doesn't matter as much for female perpetrators. I was just referring to society's attitudes about it.
> 
> Also, did you ever notice the double standards for regular men versus rock stars? There's quite a few rock stars that were at least in their 20's when they fucked 14/15 year old girls. But people don't care if their heroes do that, while they'll ostracize any common man for doing that.


Yes for example Elvis. For me listenening to music written by people who I know has done that is like eating dinner from a stinky dish full of shit, honestly. I know some people would probably say don't throw thebaby out with the dishwater, but I just can't take it.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Ock said:


> 19 and 15 isn't that terrible. It could be a lot worse. The age of consent where I live is 18, but I believe in allowing a 17 year old to consent to an 18 year old at least, maybe even a 16 year old with a 19 year old. I actually think its wrong for an 18 year old to be labelled a sex offender for having consentual sex with a 17 year old, and that the 18 year old is the real victim in that case. Hell, when I was 18 I didn't even realize how much trouble I could get in for that, so I would've been a victim of the justice system imo.


I was just turned 16 for my first time and my x was about 21. I don't think was too young but I think he was too old and today I regret not having a boyfriend my own age, the relationship was A-symnertrical.16 years old is a leagal age here, but even though the body is developed enough it doesn't meen the brain is before in the early 20's for girls.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Electra said:


> I was just turned 16 for my first time and my x was about 21. I don't think was too young but I think he was too old and today I regret not having a boyfriend my own age, the relationship was A-symnertrical.16 years old is a leagal age here, but even though the body is developed enough it doesn't meen the brain is before in the early 20's for girls.


So, iyo is it wrong of me that my age range for women is so liberal? I'm 43, but I guess I'm open to women in the age range 23-63. I figure their brains are pretty much fully developed by 23. Btw, my only relationship so far was an ldr with a woman who's 20 years older than me. If I would've been picky about age, then I never would've had my only relationship, so I don't really have regrets. We only met in person once, and the most meaningful thing we did was cuddle, and it was beautiful.

Edit: I also figure for example that there's still plenty of 25 year olds out there that are more mature than plenty of 45 year olds.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Ock said:


> So, iyo is it wrong of me that my age range for women is so liberal? I'm 43, but I guess I'm open to women in the age range 23-63. I figure their brains are pretty much fully developed by 23. Btw, my only relationship so far was an ldr with a woman who's 20 years older than me. If I would've been picky about age, then I never would've had my only relationship, so I don't really have regrets. We only met in person once, and the most meaningful thing we did was cuddle, and it was beautiful.
> 
> Edit: I also figure for example that there's still plenty of 25 year olds out there that are more mature than plenty of 45 year olds.


No, I don't think that is wrong, because you are both adults. But I don't think adults should have sexual relationships with teens and smaller kids.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Electra said:


> No, I don't think that is wrong, because you are both adults. But I don't think adults should have sexual relationships with teens and smaller kids.


Gotcha. I just wonder what people think sometimes. Like I've heard stuff like "Well when you were 20 she was just newborn, so its basically fucked up." But the way I figure it is that I may have been 20 when someone was newborn, but it still doesn't change the fact that now I'm 43, and now _she's_ a 23 year old fully mature adult. But still ideally I'd like someone closer to my age than 20 years. But I just like to keep an open mind on an individual woman by individual woman basis because otherwise I might really miss out. After all, look at my _only_ relationship so far.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Ock said:


> Gotcha. I just wonder what people think sometimes. Like I've heard stuff like "Well when you were 20 she was just newborn, so its basically fucked up." But the way I figure it is that I may have been 20 when someone was newborn, but it still doesn't change the fact that now I'm 43, and now _she's_ a 23 year old fully mature adult. But still ideally I'd like someone closer to my age than 20 years. But I just like to keep an open mind on an individual woman by individual woman basis because otherwise I might really miss out. After all, look at my _only_ relationship so far.


I don't like it when there is a 20 years difference, but its not as repulsive. I have my self had a boyfriend for a coupple of years who was 10 years younger tbh. But I'm not proud of it. I also think 15 years between adults is ok. But I must admit 20 years do feel somewhat weird, I'm not gonna lie. But at least its not illegal.


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## Crowbo (Jul 9, 2017)

I'm not a woman obviously . But I will post here anyway to provide some additional perspective. I'm a male virgin just like you, though I am significantly younger at the age of 22 and turning 23 at the end of this year. And yes, while you might think that me still being a virgin in my early twenties may seem more normal compared to your position, I still can empathize with your position and understand exactly why you'd feel this way about virginity. And to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying this out of pity but out of both encouragement and respect. Because you clearly demonstrate a great deal of authenticity and mental fortitude. You won't have sex until the opportunity comes where it's with someone that you share the proper connection with and that is something that I so greatly admire. I am exactly the same in this regard. It can still be incredibly frustrating to wait however due to the fact that society puts so much pressure on men to begin boning when they're young because if you don't, that societal stigma will label you as a "loser" even though deep down, this is absolutely not the case. I say fuck society! Society does not get to determine your overall individual greatness and value to the world. Nor does your sexual and/or romantic experience. You, and only you, have the right to determine that. I'm very proud that you've stuck to your guns and stayed true to your principles despite the societal pressure.

When I think about all of this in context, I like to imagine that the gateway to self-actualization and discovering meaning to life is very much like the sport of Cross Country Running. And I use this analogy, not because I believe that life is a race but because of the nature of the sport itself. In Cross Country, the meets and races are a long process and just like life, it's best that you run at your own pace. Don't worry about the people that are far ahead of you, because you are not them and they are not you. And just like any long-distance race, trying to pace yourself too quickly will only leave you exhausted much quicker, and make you more miserable overall in the long run. And just like life, you can also greatly benefit yourself by helping both you and others. But most important. In cross country, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you are. As long as you know that you did the absolute best that you could then that's all that truly matters. 

I'll end this textapoolaza with a quote that a former Cross Country teammate of mine once said to me. "Only you can stop you."


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Crowbo said:


> I'm not a woman obviously . But I will post here anyway to provide some additional perspective. I'm a male virgin just like you, though I am significantly younger at the age of 22 and turning 23 at the end of this year. And yes, while you might think that me still being a virgin in my early twenties may seem more normal compared to your position, I still can empathize with your position and understand exactly why you'd feel this way about virginity. And to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying this out of pity but out of both encouragement and respect. Because you clearly demonstrate a great deal of authenticity and mental fortitude. You won't have sex until the opportunity comes where it's with someone that you share the proper connection with and that is something that I so greatly admire. I am exactly the same in this regard. It can still be incredibly frustrating to wait however due to the fact that society puts so much pressure on men to begin boning when they're young because if you don't, that societal stigma will label you as a "loser" even though deep down, this is absolutely not the case. I say fuck society! Society does not get to determine your overall individual greatness and value to the world. Nor does your sexual and/or romantic experience. You, and only you, have the right to determine that. I'm very proud that you've stuck to your guns and stayed true to your principles despite the societal pressure.
> 
> When I think about all of this in context, I like to imagine that the gateway to self-actualization and discovering meaning to life is very much like the sport of Cross Country Running. And I use this analogy, not because I believe that life is a race but because of the nature of the sport itself. In Cross Country, the meets and races are a long process and just like life, it's best that you run at your own pace. Don't worry about the people that are far ahead of you, because you are not them and they are not you. And just like any long-distance race, trying to pace yourself too quickly will only leave you exhausted much quicker, and make you more miserable overall in the long run. And just like life, you can also greatly benefit yourself by helping both you and others. But most important. In cross country, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you are. As long as you know that you did the absolute best that you could then that's all that truly matters.
> 
> I'll end this textapoolaza with a quote that a former Cross Country teammate of mine once said to me. "Only you can stop you."


Wow. Thanks man. I don't mean that sarcastically either.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Everyone is a virgin to the experience of a new person. Learning the mind/person/body. Who cares. When it is the right person it will fall into place. Just as long as you are not using it as an excuse, you should be fine. There are plenty of books you can read if- you have not already. Wherever you do, do not think porn will show you how it is done or is how to do it. Also, inquire on how to build up stamina from other men. imo That would be something anyone ~ virgin or not should take into account. One pump chumps are not what females are looking for.  Correction, I can not speak for the entire female population- I assume most are not looking for.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Crowbo said:


> I'm not a woman obviously . But I will post here anyway to provide some additional perspective. I'm a male virgin just like you, though I am significantly younger at the age of 22 and turning 23 at the end of this year. And yes, while you might think that me still being a virgin in my early twenties may seem more normal compared to your position, I still can empathize with your position and understand exactly why you'd feel this way about virginity. And to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying this out of pity but out of both encouragement and respect. Because you clearly demonstrate a great deal of authenticity and mental fortitude. You won't have sex until the opportunity comes where it's with someone that you share the proper connection with and that is something that I so greatly admire. I am exactly the same in this regard. It can still be incredibly frustrating to wait however due to the fact that society puts so much pressure on men to begin boning when they're young because if you don't, that societal stigma will label you as a "loser" even though deep down, this is absolutely not the case. I say fuck society! Society does not get to determine your overall individual greatness and value to the world. Nor does your sexual and/or romantic experience. You, and only you, have the right to determine that. I'm very proud that you've stuck to your guns and stayed true to your principles despite the societal pressure.
> 
> When I think about all of this in context, I like to imagine that the gateway to self-actualization and discovering meaning to life is very much like the sport of Cross Country Running. And I use this analogy, not because I believe that life is a race but because of the nature of the sport itself. In Cross Country, the meets and races are a long process and just like life, it's best that you run at your own pace. Don't worry about the people that are far ahead of you, because you are not them and they are not you. And just like any long-distance race, trying to pace yourself too quickly will only leave you exhausted much quicker, and make you more miserable overall in the long run. And just like life, you can also greatly benefit yourself by helping both you and others. But most important. In cross country, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you are. As long as you know that you did the absolute best that you could then that's all that truly matters.
> 
> I'll end this textapoolaza with a quote that a former Cross Country teammate of mine once said to me. "Only you can stop you."


You are growing into a very wise man! Proud of you Crow for sharing your experience/incite in such an impactful way. 💯 You should do that more often!


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Never understood the virginity fetish considering how the act of sex is organic in nature. Who cares if a guy's a virgin but I do agree that the first time, presuming people have a choice in the matter, should be with someone they've really connected with so skillfulness isn't the main expectation like in sport sex.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Uh-huh, uh-huh.
> 
> Why did you not read the original post?


Time is money, friend.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Electra said:


> Time is money, friend.


But can you observe without time and without memory?


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

ENIGMA2019 said:


> A lot of this is very- Well said. Sorry Ock.. I did not read the OP just the title. It sounds like you should just work on improving the things with yourself right now you struggle with and not worrying about your virginity- so much. Being able to function on a basic personal/individual level. Not what some person you have not even comes across yet -thinks about it. Do you have any thing you do like doing?  Hobbies?


Well the thing is that I don't get overly worried about my virginity. I've kinda outgrown that and realized it was just harming me. I don't really let what people think about my virginity bother me much. But somehow people on this thread assumed I'm troubled and self-conscious about it merely because I exhibited some intellectual curiosity about what women think. Just being curious is a lot different than being worried and going through some existential crisis or whatever.

Edit: All in all I'm doing okay. I didn't create this thread to get advice. I created it to hear real opinions. A couple women here were more on the crass side, and I didn't let it bother me because that's exactly what I was asking for: opinions. If anything, I'm a little more annoyed by people assuming that I need a sermon of advice, and that I must be deeply troubled by my virginity. Somehow Crowbo affected me different though, and I think maybe its because I could sense that he's coming from a completely different place than other people here wishing to sermonize me like a child.


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## B3LIAL (Dec 21, 2013)

Ock said:


> Or
> 
> 5) Just not place too much importance in losing my virginity, and maybe or maybe not lose it at some point when I meet a woman that we naturally click with each other and somehow it just organically leads to sex.


Ok.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Ock said:


> Well the thing is that I don't get overly worried about my virginity. I've kinda outgrown that and realized it was just harming me. I don't really let what people think about my virginity bother me much. But somehow people on this thread assumed I'm troubled and self-conscious about it merely because I exhibited some intellectual curiosity about what women think. Just being curious is a lot different than being worried and going through some existential crisis or whatever.
> 
> Edit: All in all I'm doing okay. I didn't create this thread to get advice. I created it to hear real opinions. A couple women here were more on the crass side, and I didn't let it bother me because that's exactly what I was asking for: opinions. If anything, I'm a little more annoyed by people assuming that I need a sermon of advice, and that I must be deeply troubled by my virginity. Somehow Crowbo affected me different though, and I think maybe its because I could sense that he's coming from a completely different place than other people here wishing to sermonize me like a child.


Gotcha. I understand curiosity. I did not see any sermon going on but, I have not looked through the whole thread. I guess, people read the title, answer and then explain reasoning/solutions/advice? _shrugs_ Kind of happens that way in threads. Do your thing and I hope your curiosity is sated.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Uh-huh, uh-huh.
> 
> Why did you not read the original post?











You tell me....


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

We would learn about each other as we go.
The way I have always done.
Being older and not having sex wouldn’t be a turn-off.
It would feel rather exciting, almost like a challenge and hell I would be nervous anyhow (challenge or not)—something in common I would suppose.
And this all would definitely be after we got to know each other a bit.


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## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

My first boyfriend was a 30 year old virgin. I liked him with his virginity having no bearing on that, and disliked him for several other reasons which lead me to being repulsed by him as a person (sex was even eventually very disgusting and unpleasant psychologically). I'm sure virginity in and of itself will not be an issue for the majority of people. But if someone is a virgin because they don't have halfway decent social skills, are rude, lack hygiene, play video games all day, and can't hold down a job, aren't responsible, etc etc etc, then I can see why people wouldn't want to sleep with them or form any sort of intimate bond with them 

I had horrible horrible social skills due to social anxiety (and still have mediocre social skills), I didn't lose my virginity until like...23. I understand why most people found me odd since I always acted like I was just released from Plato's cave.

Similarly to what @Hexcoder said, I can even find it endearing if a guy is a virgin (current boyfriend was a virgin when we met) if he's a good/interesting person.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Are you specifically asking ME this question, @Ock?


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

AnneM said:


> Are you specifically asking ME this question, @Ock?


I was asking all women.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Ock said:


> I was asking all women.


OK well just let me know when you're asking just me.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Ock said:


> But anyways, now that that's out of the way: How would you generally feel romantically about an older male virgin? How would you feel sexually? How would you even approach sex with him, if at all? How would you approach him romantically, if at all?


I cannot answer this question as I'm not a woman and have no known relationships with older male virgins. I did try to have sex with a younger female virgin and it didn't work out. She was willing but when I tried she was blocked off. I hit a wall for some reason. She apologized and went home. Next time she apparently had worked on the problem and we proceeded as if she were not a virgin. I fell in love with her and we had a great time.

But never mind that. Let me put myself in the mind of a woman. (@AnneM are you listening?) If I were a women, I'd ask the guy if that was a concern of his and if he liked his status or was interested in changing it. I'd would talk with him and if I liked him, would ask him if he'd like to try altering his condition. Then I would proceed accordingly.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

@BigApplePi if you were a women, you sound like you'd be such a great women!!


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

A close male relative was a virgin until he was over forty. He met a women and they got married. They were both over forty when they had their child.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Ock said:


> But please say what you really think;


I think a person is many things. But not ALL things. Work with what you are. I have never climbed a high mountain or played lacrosse or gotten drunk more than that once. Compare oneself with others? There are lots of others. If you are in the one percent, that means ten thousand out of a million.




AnneM said:


> if you were a women, you sound like you'd be such a great women!!


But which one? You mean like Madame Defarge?


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

@BigApplePi oh, definitely. She's my fav. Just knitting aaaand knitting aaand knitting....how long is your scarf by now? Hey, is my name in there (one can only hope).


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm fine with it. Then again, probably because I'm a Fi dom.


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## letsrunlikecrazy (Sep 21, 2015)

Honestly, if I were a 40-something man, I would probably be in that category.


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## letsrunlikecrazy (Sep 21, 2015)

My last post may come across too flippant. To add a bit more, I just turned 28 and yes, I've been celibate my entire life. Partly because I was raised with conservative values, partly because I don't have a huge sexual appetite, and partly because I'm happy not interacting with other humans for long stretches of time. Yes, looks and overall desirability also played a part, I'm sure. That said, I don't think I'm particularly ugly. I'm also not poor or unhygienic or anything else that might hinder frolicking betwixt the sheets. Literally the biggest reason I haven't "done it" is because I'd rather do my own thing than do other people. So I perfectly understand if other people my age or older have no sexual experience, at least if they've been celibate for similar reasons. 

As for what I would personally want in a partner, it would be someone who prioritizes things other than sex, at least in the beginning stages of the relationship. It would be weird and uncomfortable if I started dating someone and the expectation was to have sex right away, and worse if I was expected to be in any way good at it. So a fellow virgin may actually be ideal, especially as I get older without gaining more sexual experience.

For additional context, I was brought up Christian and on top of that, my parents are immigrants from Asia. I am no longer Christian and didn't believe in "purity" even while I was a Christian. At the same time, I think my parents fundamentally had it right. There are more important things in life than getting dick. The right dick will wait.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

letsrunlikecrazy said:


> My last post may come across too flippant. To add a bit more, I just turned 28 and yes, I've been celibate my entire life. Partly because I was raised with conservative values, partly because I don't have a huge sexual appetite, and partly because I'm happy not interacting with other humans for long stretches of time. Yes, looks and overall desirability also played a part, I'm sure. That said, I don't think I'm particularly ugly. I'm also not poor or unhygienic or anything else that might hinder frolicking betwixt the sheets. Literally the biggest reason I haven't "done it" is because I'd rather do my own thing than do other people. So I perfectly understand if other people my age or older have no sexual experience, at least if they've been celibate for similar reasons.
> 
> As for what I would personally want in a partner, it would be someone who prioritizes things other than sex, at least in the beginning stages of the relationship. It would be weird and uncomfortable if I started dating someone and the expectation was to have sex right away, and worse if I was expected to be in any way good at it. So a fellow virgin may actually be ideal, especially as I get older without gaining more sexual experience.
> 
> For additional context, I was brought up Christian and on top of that, my parents are immigrants from Asia. I am no longer Christian and didn't believe in "purity" even while I was a Christian. At the same time, I think my parents fundamentally had it right. There are more important things in life than getting dick. The right dick will wait.


That's the right spirit. 👍


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

WickerDeer said:


> They cheated a shit ton more than women (who are now catching up--but cry me a river that men now have to deal with a smidgen of what women have had to).


Nothing against you personally, WickerDeer, but that attitude and justification is anathema to me. Really disappointing. 

Oh, I cried, alright. It broke my heart too. Hope that’s satisfying for you in some way. An eye for an eye. That’ll teach some long dead men.

🤦‍♂️


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Infinitus said:


> Nothing against you personally, WickerDeer, but that attitude and justification is anathema to me. Really disappointing.
> 
> Oh, I cried, alright. It broke my heart too. Hope that’s satisfying for you in some way. An eye for an eye. That’ll teach some long dead men.
> 
> 🤦‍♂️


Well, I am sorry that hurt your feelings. I don't think that you interpreted my attitude correctly.

If it is any consolation, I do not think it is good when people cheat and I was not saying that I was vengefully happy about cheating.

I am pretty mad, and not very gentle in my expression in spoilers, and so if you are feeling hurt or you feel you might further be hurt by my honest opinion, I did put it in spoilers so you don't need to read it. I genuinely wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings--but just wanted to be able to share my opinions and experience.

I am not trying to hurt people's feelings and I was not intending on making anyone feel hurt or sad.


* *





I find it disappointing that some people would think it BETTER that an entire gender shouldn't have equal rights, because with equal rights they might start acting more like the gender with rights.

That is so incredibly rude to me, I really cannot feel guilty for my beliefs.

I would NEVER say that men should lose their rights to go to college, to go out of the house safely alone, to drive cars, to work outside the house, to have the right to vote, to be able to go out of the house without their bodies covered from head to toe...I would never EVER say that they should have to lose those human rights just so they don't cheat as much.

Because I think human beings deserve a modicum of respect. And if some of them abuse their freedoms by cheating, well that IS SAD but it is FAR better than the alternative, of treating them like chattel with no rights.

I am going to assume that you interpreted my statement to mean something like "I am so angry men have cheated more and I am glad women will cheat on men out of vengeance," or something. This is not the meaning of my statement.

So tell me, should I be sad men are capable of cheating?

Should I yearn for a time when men would be subordinated and lack rights, because they might have cheated less? There wasn't ever a time like this, but would it really be something good to yearn for?

Or should, perhaps, I just accept that men are human beings, and some men cheat and some do not. And that it's a matter of character.

And that it's foolish to assume all men will have the same values, goals, motivations as each other? Is it BAD for men to have individual personalities?

What is so bad about the idea that some women cheat? Is it that you might have to also acknowledge that women are more than just their bodies? That they have minds, values, different personalities...and that some women will cheat if they get the opportunity and some will not?

What is so bad about that? Why is it so terrible to consider people like individuals with free will?

I am not saying it is good that people cheat on other people or that I am happy anyone has been cheated on. However, I am saying that I would NEVER sacrifice men being able to have the rights they have just to keep them from being capable of cheating (especially since the majority of men wouldn't anyway). I have respect for human beings, and I consider men human beings.

I only wish more people would extend that respect to women...is it really THAT hard to not assume any girl is going to be virtuous, and to have to consider the reality that women are human too, and have personalities and values and maybe more than just their bodies should be considered when evaluating them as romantic partners?




I value women as human beings. I think they should be able to have rights, even if it means that some of them will act poorly just as some men did and do. I don't think that women are only valuable by what use they are to men, and that women shouldn't have rights, just because it might open them up to having the opportunity to cheat. I believe men and women deserve respect as human beings, and I do feel sad that sentiment isn't more common.

edit:

* *





I guess I can sort of see how it sounds insensitive and unkind if I were to extend it into something like sexual assault. 

And then the reality is that no one can tell what the invisible parts of another person are anyway, so it's not super simple. 

But suggesting women should have to choose partners who don't assault them, by being more discerning of the character of the person they date...it sounds a little like victim blaming.

Though it is reality--as much as it is sad that people do hurt other people, it is important to be discerning and to pay attention to the personality of the person you are with.

It does suck that one even has to consider that threat--just as I am sure it also sucks that one has to consider the threat or fear of a partner's betrayal in terms if infidelity.

My point wasn't to say that cheating isn't hurtful, and I certainly wasn't saying that it is good that people get cheated on, but I can see how the statement I made could be felt as hurtful. 

I certainly wasn't saying that I was happy anyone got cheated on or that I felt that men deserved to get cheated on or something like that.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

WickerDeer said:


> Well, I am sorry that hurt your feelings. I don't think that you interpreted my attitude correctly.
> 
> If it is any consolation, I do not think it is good when people cheat and I was not saying that I was vengefully happy about cheating.
> 
> ...


I'm a little lost in following your argument (a little slow today), but are you essentially saying "It's ultimately about your character as an individual regardless of your sex. It's bad to cheat and be an ass-hat no matter what sex you are. All people deserve equal rights and opportunities regardless of your sex. And it sucked that at any time/age in history that men and women were unfairly treated or had more rights over the opposite sex to varying degrees; particularly women - and it makes you extremely mad"?


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Joe Black said:


> I'm a little lost in following your argument (a little slow today), but are you essentially saying "It's ultimately about your character as an individual regardless of your sex. It's bad to cheat and be an ass-hat no matter what sex you are. All people deserve equal rights and opportunities regardless of your sex."?


Well...I don't blame you because it's not really an argument, more like an emotional rant. lol So I really don't think you are being slow today, I am just trying to express how I feel about it, and what I said, and it didn't turn out that great.

But yes...I am saying that men and women aren't that different from each other.

I don't like cheating--it hurts people so yeah it's bad. Idk--I am probably mostly mad because I feel misunderstood. But I was hoping not to say anything hurtful.


* *






I guess if I was to try to make an actual logical argument:

I'm saying that

Women didn't used to have the opportunity to cheat as much. This resulted in men cheating FAR more because men DID have the opportunity to cheat (not because "men are men.")

Now women's cheating has increased (still only a little over half of men's) but it has only increased because of increased opportunity. Because women who would have chosen to cheat before now have the opportunity to.

I am saying that it's not particularly tragic because all the numbers reflect is more people having equal options/rights and making individual decisions.




It's always sad when people hurt other people in relationships. I am not saying that it isn't tragic that people do that. 

It is most reasonable that we have to just discern and care for the invisible parts of an individual human too--who they are, their preferences, their goals and dreams, their values and virtues and weaknesses...better than removing everyone's rights in most situations.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

WickerDeer said:


> Well, I am sorry that hurt your feelings. I don't think that you interpreted my attitude correctly.


Perhaps I dramatised it a bit. You didn’t hurt my feelings. You touched a nerve. Reaching for things in the past to downplay the misdeeds of the present. It’s toxic, & poor form. As someone caught in the crossfire, who takes commitments seriously, and also innocent in this regard (impeccably so), it got on my nerves. My loyalty means something to me.

Perhaps you should try respecting and empathising with men as well as women? I empathise with you. I would never say “cry me a river” about misconduct against you. Nor do I see it as a gendered thing; it’s bad, period. I think you’re above this toxic attitude.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Infinitus said:


> Perhaps I dramatised it a bit. You didn’t hurt my feelings. You touched a nerve. Reaching for things in the past to downplay the misdeeds of the present. It’s toxic, & poor form. As someone caught in the crossfire, who takes commitments seriously, and also innocent in this regard (impeccably so), it got on my nerves. My loyalty means something to me.
> 
> Perhaps you should try respecting and empathising with men as well as women? I empathise with you. I would never say “cry me a river” about misconduct against you. Nor do I see it as a gendered thing; it’s bad, period. I think you’re above this toxic attitude.


I don't see men and women that differently, nor do I have trouble empathizing with men.

I think that when a man is cheated on, it is likely the same sort of experience that when a woman is. The difference is that when I talk about an increase in women cheating, I anticipate the many people I've argued with online, who would suggest it is evidence that women having equal rights is a bad thing.

And so when I compare having to face the reality that people in an gender (men) will cheat, because they have the freedom and opportunity to do so and removing people's freedoms, I am not sympathetic to the idea that people's rights should be removed.

Maybe I sound like some angry bitter feminist or something, but I wonder what you would sound like if you regularly engaged with people who in earnest actually believed that perhaps you shouldn't have rights or perhaps we should go back a few decades or hundred years to a place in which you weren't granted the privilege to go to college, to have legal rights, to decide on your life.

I wonder how sympathetic you would be in a thread which is literally about women who've taken to shooting men in yoga studios (edit: oops sorry--wrong thread, I was thinking of the incel thread recently not this one), who have advocated systematic rape of men--sending men to be divvied out to people to be raped. And this is a growing online group of terrorists. In a world in which men get harassed online often, and people ask men to be sympathetic because maybe some woman got upset you said "cry me a river" about men having the option to cheat, even if most men do not...after women have been cheating for years and those same women want to yell and advocate a time in the past in which they are fully capable of cheating, having multiple partners, seeing prostitutes, and men are either prostitutes to be abused, or the class of upper-class men who are treated with some level of respect even though they are still forbidden from things like school or work or politics.

I would also like to see people empathize, but I think my order is too tall.

I wasn't talking to any individual who's been cheated on. Not sure if it's common knowledge, but women also get cheated on, about twice as often according to statistics. It is far MORE common for a woman to have to discern where her male partner is a cheater than the other way around.

However, by saying that I am not saying that it is fine when men get cheated on, only that complaint of women increasing the amount of cheating, statistically, is really kind of...annoying that with all the things that I already have to deal with in dating, as a woman, including this new topic about incels who literally want to kill women, and online environments that treat women as they do, that I am supposed to be sorry because I accidentally didn't give enough sympathy to the hypothetical men who might be cheated on because women have more opportunity to cheat now, because they have rights.

I am getting it's my language and my speech that has given the impression that I somehow don't sympathize with men--as if I would ever do any of these things I'm describing being done to women to men (I WOULD NOT) I would even like to think I would sympathize with "men" as a group on issues that they do deal with (such as being the recipient of male violence more often)...smh Not sure how much else I can censor my speech to avoid offending people though.

If my attitude is toxic, because I am supposed to be, at every moment of my life worried about how offended men will be by something I say, I guess maybe I will have to agree with you, except I am just going to go the lazy route of being seen as one of those evil feminists who somehow doesn't care when men get cheated on, just because I said "cry me a river" while anticipating the arguments that it is bad that women now have the ability to cheat.

I can be grateful though, that by my standards I actually do empathize with men--which is why I would NEVER suggest taking their rights away just so I could have easier access to some subservient man. That to me is actual empathy--actually caring about people's humanity and not just having some docile domestic partner that I don't have to think of the personality of, I can just pick out a good looking one and be sure that he's incapable of fucking me over because he's got no rights. Personally, if I ever believed anything like that, then I am fine people criticizing me for lacking empathy for "men" as a group, otherwise I'm fine treating them like equals.

And never have I cheated on a man, never have I once ever told any man that it was good he was cheated on. I'm not going to be able to censor everything I say to the extent that it will not upset someone somewhere.

When I argue online, I have to perceive how my arguments could be used by sexists who want to take away and dehumanize women. This is part of the landscape I operate in. I will consider if there are other better ways to address this in the future, but frankly I do not lack the ability to empathize with men at all and I empathize with them far better than many of the men I meet online empathize with women. Tbh it is probably just pointless to even try to discuss anything about this anyway, and aren't echo chambers without women better anyway--that's probably how inceldom grew so much.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

And to be clear, while I do not agree with cheating and I empathize with men and women who've been cheated on, I am not going to be sympathetic to men who are alarmed that women might cheat on men at the same rate that men cheat on women.

Maybe my brain's not good at maths and that's why, but to me it doesn't seem like a "mens" issue that women might cheat on men half as much, which is more than before.

I repeat, I absolutely sympathize with anyone who's been cheated on and I personally haven't ever cheated and do not think cheating is good as it is harmful and causes a lot of hurt. But I cannot bring myself to sympathize with a group of people who would prefer that women do not have rights so that they do not have the same opportunities as men, and so that they do not commit even half the offenses that they have been subjected to by that group.

This has nothing to do with hating men or being unsympathetic to men. If it was the other way around and it was men who had lacked rights, I would still support their rights and still accept that an increase in male poor behavior due to their having the same rights as women is just one shitty thing but it's better than the alternative, because I actually do empathize with men.

And I am sorry--I am not trying to be overly harsh @Infinitus but I am a little angry about the insinuation that I do not empathize with men or that I somehow am vindictively happy people are being cheated on. I can see how "cry me a river" can be interpreted that way though, but I do not believe your assessment of my attitude is accurate.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Anyway, I think I am going to move on.

@Infinitus I am sorry that I gave you the impression that I do not think that pain cause to men is important or that I do not think that pain caused to you is important. I do not lack empathy or respect to men, though I do not believe men deserve more respect or empathy than women--not sure if that means I lack it in some people's minds. Thank you for bringing attention to how my word choice "cry me a river" about the statistics of women cheating a bit more than half of what men cheat. I certainly wasn't intending to harm anyone by saying that.
------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I was originally talking about, which I said "cry me a river" about--just in case it got lost:








Do Men Cheat More Than Women?


Who cheats more, men or women? Scientists aren't sure who cheats the most, but clinicians suspect that wives may be more discrete.




www.fatherly.com




(men cheat 20% women 13% but the "fidelity gap is closing" which I do not consider "bad." I consider it bad that anyone cheats, but I do not consider it particularly bad that men have to deal with women cheating 13% which is more than they did when I assume they didn't have the opportunity, since they were more oppressed. I do not feel sad about this statistic--if it makes me a monster, so be it. I also do not feel happy about it--it is what it is. Women are human beings and individuals just like men, and maybe people should treat them like.)

And to just summarize--my point with Joe Black is that I think individual preference is important regarding "good sex" and that virginity/lack of experience (in men since this thread is about men who are virgins) doesn't ensure "bad sex" because every individual is different and having sex with a partner is a new experience no matter if you've had sex with other people (and so are experienced) or not. And the emphasis on experience is overrated.

And I also continue to stand by what I said earlier in this thread, which is that I wouldn't think anything poorly about a 40 year old virgin...there are many reasons people choose to be virgins, and that is a personal choice people should respect. It also doesn't mean to me he must be a poor sexual partner--or that there's some huge amount of "teaching" involved, as every person is different anyway and sex doesn't have to follow some formula to be good. I don't believe that people who are more sexually experienced are so because they are better. Sexual experience is a personal thing and people are so individual that it doesn't say a lot about someone.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

@WickerDeer

I don’t think you, as a person, are toxic. Merely the attitude of the specific point that I highlighted. I see a different side to you; gentle, creative, attuned, thoughtful, insightful. It’s a shame that this ideology seemingly blinds you to the insensitive things you say, as you compare men against women, as if a competition. But if all this is your conception of defeating “sexists” that want to take away your rights (which I haven’t seen outside of jokes, & is completely unrealistic i.e. never going to happen), continue fighting the good fight. I’m sorry I made you angry. Admittedly, I was being snarky with the “try empathising with men” comment, demonstrating how it comes across from my perspective. Adultery and cheating are terrible regardless of who does it, & two wrongs don’t make a right.

The song “Cry Me A River” is about a woman cheating on a man. I’m somewhat amused by that. God has a sense of humour, alright. 😊


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Infinitus said:


> @WickerDeer
> 
> I don’t think you, as a person, are toxic. Merely the attitude of the specific point that I highlighted. I see a different side to you; gentle, creative, attuned, thoughtful, insightful. It’s a shame that this ideology seemingly blinds you to the insensitive things you say, as you compare men against women, as if a competition. But if all this is your conception of defeating “sexists” that want to take away your rights (which I haven’t seen outside of jokes, & is completely unrealistic i.e. never going to happen), continue fighting the good fight. I’m sorry I made you angry. Admittedly, I was being snarky with the “try empathising with men” comment, demonstrating how it comes across from my perspective. Adultery and cheating are terrible regardless of who does it, & two wrongs don’t make a right.
> 
> The song “Cry Me A River” is about a woman cheating on a man. I’m somewhat amused by that. God has a sense of humour, alright. 😊


That is kind of funny--I didn't even know there was a song called "cry me a river." I'll have to listen to it and see if I agree with it (but I doubt I will).

I don't think ideology is blinding me. My ideology simply says that men and women are equal and deserve respect. It's moreso, imo, that I have to anticipate the way people will twist my words, and so I feel apprehensive saying anything negative about women online.

You haven't ever dealt with sexists outside of jokes--that is good for you, but I have watched countless of sexist videos as a mod, that explained to me all about how women all lie, aren't capable of higher thinking and only parrot men, women are deceptive and just want to exploit people. I have had people tell me that my sister who was a fire fighter only got into that because they "lowered their standards" to allow women (when I tried to use her as an example of women who save people when the other person was arguing that women do not do anything in society. I have seen people argue that women having rights is the beginning of the downfall of western civilization...not jokingly. Seriously. So I often have that in the back of my mind when I bother to even say anything (which I often don't, because it feels pointless to me). 

So in my mind I was thinking "someone is going to use this as evidence of how feminism is bad--and women should not have equal rights, because now women are cheating at about half the rate of men, which is more than before" 

I guess "cry me a river" isn't very tactful, but I honestly think that spousal abuse, rape, other oppressive forces that might have made it so women were incapable of cheating are worse than cheating.

And I personally haven't ever cheated and have had nightmares about waking up next to some stranger while I was in a relationship. But I am aware some people seem not to care at all what happens to women--the death threats, the stalking, the assaults, the domestic violence, because they are mostly focused on anything men might have to experience, such as a small increase in women cheating as a result of having more opportunity and perhaps being treated a little more equally. 

But yeah--I can kind of see that my own way of thinking of the world is so different than perhaps some others, that it could come off that I don't care if people suffer from betrayal because they are men, which is not what I was trying to say.

It isn't a competition. I was just making a comment to suggest that men and women aren't that different--that the reason why men cheated more wasn't "because men are men" or because "men can't control themselves" or "men are more sexual" (which tbh sounds sexist to me against men) or because "women don't have the same sex drive," but rather because environmental conditions prohibited cheating in one gender (women) because the cost was so great (of being stigmatized as a slut or perhaps of pregnancy).

No one has told me to have this opinion--this wasn't some ideology I learned from an internet group or trading memes, or talking to feminists. It just makes common sense to me that the abuses that kept women from cheating are worse than having to accept that women are individuals just like men, and some women cheat, and perhaps what goes on in the mind of a female partner is just as important as the rest of her...(values, weaknesses, strength, personality etc.)

However, I can see how it sounds a little like victim blaming--and I don't want to suggest that cheating is the fault of the person who was cheated on (the man in this scenario, I guess), or that it is good that they were hurt in a relationship just because of their gender.

I will go watch that, but I think we will have to just agree to disagree. I don't know how to change the way I talk and I don't see my attitude as toxic, but perhaps in the future I will be able to understand.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

@WickerDeer @Infinitus Honestly I can see where _both_ of you were coming from. I don't think WickerDeer is toxic or manhating, but she's living in a world where women have been mistreated much more than men, and often still are, and she's fully aware of that, so as a woman she made a comment, which I can see how it could definitely come across as crass to a man that's been deeply hurt by women cheating on him.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

WickerDeer said:


> I feel apprehensive saying anything negative about women online.


At least you admit your bias. I haven't picked a side. I'll criticise anyone. True equality.🤨


WickerDeer said:


> You haven't ever dealt with sexists outside of jokes--that is good for you


You talk about twisting words; I didn't say that. I haven't seen anyone _seriously_ advocating for removing women's rights from them, outside of jokes. Please direct me their way, I'd like to speak to them. Sincerely, I'd like to dissect their delusional and regressive thinking.


WickerDeer said:


> I am aware some people seem not to care at all what happens to women--the death threats, the stalking, the assaults, the domestic violence, because they are mostly focused on anything men might have to experience, such as a small increase in women cheating as a result of having more opportunity and perhaps being treated a little more equally.


Too many people I care for or love were victims of such. The first person who admitted to me they were sexually abused, or more accurately, raped, is a...wait for it...*male*. As I said; blinded by ideology. You didn't even consider it. My eye sees _all_ injustice. 👀


WickerDeer said:


> I don't see my attitude as toxic


Let me hold up a mirror: 
_Men have been the biggest perpetrators of murder on this planet. So when more woman start killing men; cry me a river. After all, men have been killing women for millennia. Women simply haven't had the opportunity. I don't think it's "bad" if the gender murder gap narrows. Only that murder is bad._

Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Infinitus said:


> At least you admit your bias. I haven't picked a side. I'll criticise anyone. True equality.🤨
> You talk about twisting words; I didn't say that. I haven't seen anyone _seriously_ advocating for removing women's rights from them, outside of jokes. Please direct me their way, I'd like to speak to them. Sincerely, I'd like to dissect their delusional and regressive thinking.


I usually don't try to direct people to sexists as the ones who are the most ardent are either trolls or they don't care to listen anyway. If I see something sexist, I guess I'll let you know? The people I talked about before have been banned because sexism and other forms of discrimination are against the site's rules, so that the site can be open to anyone of any gender or ethnicity.



> Too many people I care for or love were victims of such. The first person who admitted to me they were sexually abused, or more accurately, raped, is a...wait for it...*male*. As I said; blinded by ideology. You didn't even consider it. My eye sees _all_ injustice. 👀


I don't know why you think I did not consider it--there are male victims of sexual assault--just because I talk about abuses against women doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that men also end up victims of sexual assault.

In fact though men experience sexual assault in lower rates than women, men experience non-sexual assault at higher rates (mostly at the hands of other men) which I think is a serious and real issue for men. They also die younger for that reason, which is again--a serious and real issue that as far as I know, only feminism has sought to address in any organized way (by questioning how male socializing could be negatively impacting their lives--perhaps even concepts like "toxic masculinity" belong here, toxic masculinity being socialization of men and boys to utilize self-sabotaging behaviors (? I don't actually know what toxic masculinity is but I suspect that would be part of it--anything that harms men/boys or women/girls for no good reason).



> Let me hold up a mirror:
> _Men have been the biggest perpetrators of murder on this planet. So when more woman start killing men; cry me a river. After all, men have been killing women for millennia. Women simply haven't had the opportunity. I don't think it's "bad" if the gender murder gap narrows. Only that murder is bad._
> 
> Two wrongs don't make a right.


Um...I have to admit that I've read studies about how women's crime rate has been increasing and similarly catching up to mens' (which is far ahead)...whether this is due to better detection of the perpetrators of crimes, or whether it's due to women increasingly becoming criminals due to changing social environment, I don't feel a lot about it.

Perhaps, as you said--it's not about men vs. women, but rather that it's a social issue everyone deals with. And so learning that women are increasingly committing crimes like murder/theft isn't some pearl clutching moment for me, since I just think that women are people? Women are individuals? Some women commit crimes? 

I'm not saying I think you think like this (or anyone does) but I do sort of think of women committing more adultery this way:

I don't think "oh no! The women are committing crimes?!" I just think...yeah, there are women committing crimes--because women are individuals and have different values and motivations?


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Both men and women can be victims of mostly male violence. Equality wins?


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

DOGSOUP said:


> Both men and women can be victims of mostly male violence. Equality wins?


Men are still more likely to be victims of non-sexual male violence, I would consider that a problem that men face especially since it impacts their life expectancy. Women are still victims of sexual violence more.

The reason why women are increasing in their cheating and their crime is likely due to women having more options now, or possibly because of the amount of female head-of-household families. I don't really know about crime--I assume it's related to economic independence, and women being allowed/expected to pursue that.

Does it seem reasonable to expect the amount of female infidelity to remain as low as it was back before women were even allowed to be airline stewardesses while being married? I don't think so. To me getting upset that a population of people cheats because they are female, and they are only about a little above half as likely to cheat as the other...I can't do it. It just seems like a double standard to me to treat it like it's an "issue." But idk--I've never been the marriage police and I'm not really sure about how or what policing people in their consensual choices (even while hurtful to others) would really look like.

I realize you were joking but am still upset about being called out for saying cry me a river. But I'll try to get over it now.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

WickerDeer said:


> Men are still more likely to be victims of non-sexual male violence, I would consider that a problem that men face especially since it impacts their life expectancy. Women are still victims of sexual violence more.
> 
> The reason why women are increasing in their cheating and their crime is likely due to women having more options now, or possibly because of the amount of female head-of-household families. I don't really know about crime--I assume it's related to economic independence, and women being allowed/expected to pursue that.
> 
> ...


Women are often sympathetic to the suffering of men, but some will still use mens issues and suffering as a gotcha against women.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

DOGSOUP said:


> Women are often sympathetic to the suffering of men, but some will still use mens issues and suffering as a gotcha against women.


Ok I am too dumb for this forum. You mean...it's a joke because it's a silly "gotcha" to say that men are equally violent towards men and women (I mean because men tend to express more violence, cheating and everything?)

Ugh I better just bow out of this discussion because I really don't get it and I also am really bad at gotchas.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

WickerDeer said:


> I realize you were joking but am still upset about being called out for saying cry me a river. But I'll try to get over it now.


I didn't mean to ruin your day/week. I just have strong views about that particular thing, for personal reasons. Is there anything I can do to make amends? Want to punch me and help narrow the gender violence gap?🤨 (That's a joke; I did think about saying cry me a river, but...)


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

WickerDeer said:


> Ok I am too dumb for this forum. You mean...it's a joke because it's a silly "gotcha" to say that men are equally violent towards men and women (I mean because men tend to express more violence, cheating and everything?)
> 
> Ugh I better just bow out of this discussion because I really don't get it and I also am really bad at gotchas.


Yea, if we look at general trends (and you are right the type of violence is different based on sex of the victim and that is a key factor)

Seriously speaking we could only speak of equality when all things are equal. They are not. I no longer think women benefit from following male behaviour patterns in most things, sex def being one of these areas.

but tbh I think that infinitus has been trying to "getcha" this whole time, and him saying people only joke about taking away women's rights is a joke in itself (i.e. abortion)

But yeah I'm not supposed to get into discussions about sex anymore lol


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

DOGSOUP said:


> but tbh I think that infinitus has been trying to "getcha" this whole time, and him saying people only joke about taking away women's rights is a joke in itself (i.e. abortion)


I merely wanted to express my disdain at that singular comment, but got tangled within this conversation. I'm not trying to 'getcha' at all, which I see as ways to end or avoid difficult conversations. I'm willing to engage, even compromise. 🤷‍♂️

Abortion is a unique topic compared to voting rights, equal pay, anti-discrimination, etc, or the rights we all have. I'll concede there are people trying to take away that "right". I challenge you to come up with one that isn't abortion. Also, re-read the context of what WickerDeer wrote, it doesn't imply abortion. At least didn't to me. She kept saying, I'll paraphrase: "people/sexists don't want women to have equal rights to men". Men don't have any rights with regards to abortion. I repeat, it doesn't imply abortion. I didn't speak to abortion, but 'equal rights'. I'm not trying to getcha.

Now should I accuse _you_ of trying to getcha?  Nah you're good.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Infinitus said:


> I merely wanted to express my disdain at that singular comment, but got tangled within this conversation. I'm not trying to 'getcha' at all, which I see as ways to end or avoid difficult conversations. I'm willing to engage, even compromise. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Abortion is a unique topic compared to voting rights, equal pay, anti-discrimination, etc, or the rights we all have. I'll concede there are people trying to take away that "right". I challenge you to come up with one that isn't abortion. Also, re-read the context of what WickerDeer wrote, it doesn't imply abortion. At least didn't to me. She kept saying, I'll paraphrase: "people/sexists don't want women to have equal rights to men". Men don't have any rights with regards to abortion. I repeat, it doesn't imply abortion. I didn't speak to abortion, but 'equal rights'. I'm not trying to getcha.
> 
> Now should I accuse _you_ of trying to getcha?  Nah you're good.


I suppose abortion is not really an equal right, perhaps more of a right which enables women to have a more equal standing in society?

When it comes to your challenge: Are you going to limit me to a specific geographical area?


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

DOGSOUP said:


> When it comes to your challenge: Are you going to limit me to a specific geographical area?


If it's a substantial enough threat to need to fight back against, go for it.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Infinitus said:


> If it's a substantial enough threat to need to fight back against, go for it.


Yeah--but going back to my original comments, is "cry me a river" really showing a "need to fight back against" it? Or is it just me saying I don't want to listen to people complaining about another made up thing that women do--such as the problem that women are cheating at slightly above half of what men are, which is more than before.

Because I wasn't going out with painted signs, or even starting some internet subculture like the incels, or going out and shooting up nightclubs or yoga studios like incels. I just said "cry me a river."

And I didn't say that because I was fighting back, but because I was anticipating the argument that it's evidence of society going the wrong way because women have rights, because now women cheat at about half of what men do, and that's bad for men.

And I've adopted that attitude from arguing online with MANY people who seem only to prioritize anything that could inconvenience men, and constantly bash feminism (which to most women means "equality of the genders").

And I will also further say, since you say you felt my comment "cry me a river" was really insensitive and hurtful, that what kind of joke is it to joke about revoking someone's human rights?

I've heard people joke about it and I can take a joke. I like joking about things. But people online advocating sexist ideas about women aren't "joking." And if they are, how is that even funny?

So I feel kind of weird that you are criticizing the insensitivity of my saying cry me a river in context (and I do understand that I may have been insensitive and you may have legitimate reasons to criticize) but then you are saying that the sexist people who actually advocate for women to lose rights are just joking? Or that you've only met ones who were? Because don't you think that even if they were all just joking and even if I hadn't actually had to argue about this with people who were arguing in earnest (ok I didn't "have" to and it's pointless anyway) is at least as "insensitive" as saying "cry me a river"?

So while I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it, you've said you want to talk about it--so I am just going to go there. 

I also don't want to muddy what actually happened though--I was just making a comment "cry me a river" which isn't really fighting back much in my opinion, though it was in anticipation for a sexist counter-argument about womens rights <men not getting cheated on even half as much as women.

And I can also see how you would feel it insensitive, which isn't what I was intending. But still...why would you defend people joking about actually revoking human rights for a group of people who didn't get them till relatively historically recently? That is far more insensitive imo.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Infinitus said:


> If it's a substantial enough threat to need to fight back against, go for it.


Shite alright, maybe I'll link an Amnesty article about it or smth


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I mean, by my saying "cry me a river" I'm not directly threatening you with anything. I'm not saying I'm in a relationship with you and going to cheat on you. I'm not saying that whoever you're in a relationship is suddenly going to be forced to cheat on you.

I didn't even mean that it wouldn't matter if some person cheated on another, or that it's not sad when people cheat on others--which I clarfiied multiple times, though I can see why the misunderstanding could happen.

But people can still get triggered/be upset by comments that aren't direct threats.

Considering that I've faced many actual sexists online, and while none of the psychos are likely to get into positions of power and immediately carry out their plans, but they still could and do sometimes stalk people (I used to be a mod and have helped many women who were being stalked), harass or sometimes threaten (just a while ago someone talked about killing and eating me and my family online, and possibly another member)...like...are you saying I should just pretend all of that is a joke? As well as that I've experienced sexual assault, and have social anxiety about even going outside most of the time?

I'm not saying this to throw a pity party, but if you're honestly arguing in good faith, then perhaps consider that someone doesn't have to have a direct and clear threat to be defensive, especially if they've repeatedly encountered that kind of thing.

Just like you didn't have any clear threat to be defensive about someone saying "cry me a river." 

Idk--probably going off topic here, but I'm trying to understand why it's not a problem that there are people shooting up yoga studios (is that enough of a "threat against human rights"?) that I could warrant saying "Cry me a river" if that even was "fighting back"?

Idk--I am just getting even more confused. I don't think I'm going to be able to follow your rationale. I don't think what I said was that bad and I certainly don't think that it's as bad as the "joking" I've encountered about sexism--and I don't think that shooting up a yoga studio is a joke either, or shooting up a street or a nightclub because someone hates women (as an incel).


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

DOGSOUP said:


> But yeah I'm not supposed to get into discussions about sex anymore lol


lol why?

But me neither--I'm not supposed to get on arguments online anymore or talk about gender stuff or feminism or anything I genuinely feel online or have experienced, because it's just pointless. 

I also want to say that saying "cry me a river" would be the dumbest way to "fight back"--it wasn't an attempt to fight anything, it was a foolish attempt to share how I actually felt, something that really isn't wise to do online, tbh, especially if you are a woman. And I keep trying to remind myself not to be honest or authentic online, because it's not really worth it as the actual sexists won't listen to you or care anyway.

And I'm not saying that because I am accusing anyone (like @Infinitus) of sexism--but just because it's been my experience over the years and also my observations with other people online.

So not trying ot be super dramatic--also thanks for clarifying what you meant about the gotcha. I still don't really understand gotchas but I didn't join this site to get people or to be gotten, but that dynamic doesn't seem to be avoidable online with certain types of discussions.

I continually realize that truth is generally offensive to power, and that includes even silly powers like privilege. And what is the point of even talking about things if you can't be truthful. It's too tedious and it's annoying, and I can barely bother anymore. 

And this isn't all because of my previous interaction (with saying cry me a river, so please no one feel like they caused it (in this thread)) it's just compounded over time and experience and something I've been increasingly thinking about. I don't know how I learned to be such a loudmouth but truth doesn't seem very important when it's against a power dynamic with a group of people who care more about force (and I think you could say incels fit that type since their shooting rampages).


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

WickerDeer said:


> So I feel kind of weird that you are criticizing the insensitivity of my saying cry me a river in context (and I do understand that I may have been insensitive and you may have legitimate reasons to criticize) but then you are saying that the sexist people who actually advocate for women to lose rights are just joking?


Your comment related to something that happened to me personally and ruined my life. I’ll admit I got triggered because I found it insensitive you’d try to hand wave it away. As if because some men cheat, "we" are finally getting a taste of our own medicine. "Cry me a river". Despite that most of us are innocent of it. That's how it sounded _before_ you elaborated. Loyalty and keeping one's word are extremely important to me. Seeing rising infidelity rates, and *people* become more disloyal, are alarming to me. I don't care which gender does it. Bad, period.

I’ve never seen anyone genuinely advocate, as a social or political movement, that women should have equal rights taken away from them (abortion being an aside and exception). Honestly, that sounds so stupid that I can’t even take it seriously. If there are, as I said, direct me their way. I need to learn about it, it’s new to me. Sounds fascinatingly stupid. I don't see how rational, sane people would support/agree to that, to the point where it gets legislated and enacted into law. In that sense, it's not a real threat, it's a joke. Unlike cheating. Cheating and disloyalty are all too real concerns. 

You provided all this context _after_ I called you out. With the information I was going off at the time, before elaboration, it appeared toxic to me. I feel like you hate me now. I don’t hate you. I feel that the more I try to explain, the more I’m winding you up. If you still don't understand, let's just agree to disagree. Perhaps this is what I deserve for my snarky comments to you? I’ll take it like a "man". Fair dinkum.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Infinitus said:


> Your comment related to something that happened to me personally and ruined my life. I’ll admit I got triggered because I found it insensitive you’d try to hand wave it away. As if because some men cheat, "we" are finally getting a taste of our own medicine. "Cry me a river". Despite that most of us are innocent of it. That's how it sounded _before_ you elaborated. Loyalty and keeping one's word are extremely important to me. Seeing rising infidelity rates, and *people* become more disloyal, are alarming to me. I don't care which gender does it. Bad, period.
> 
> I’ve never seen anyone genuinely advocate, as a social or political movement, that women should have equal rights taken away from them (abortion being an aside and exception). Honestly, that sounds so stupid that I can’t even take it seriously. If there are, as I said, direct me their way. I need to learn about it, it’s new to me. Sounds fascinatingly stupid. I don't see how rational, sane people would support/agree to that, to the point where it gets legislated and enacted into law. In that sense, it's not a real threat, it's a joke. Unlike cheating. Cheating and disloyalty are all too real concerns.
> 
> You provided all this context _after_ I called you out. With the information I was going off at the time, before elaboration, it appeared toxic to me. I feel like you hate me now. I don’t hate you. I feel that the more I try to explain, the more I’m winding you up. If you still don't understand, let's just agree to disagree. Perhaps this is what I deserve for my snarky comments to you? I’ll take it like a "man". Fair dinkum.


edit: shortened it--no reason to leave it all up it's off topic

I do not hate you and am glad you understand that men do not deserve to be harmed just because some man has done something wrong (or even many men). That if someone has caused pain by infidelity in your life--it is not your fault, or okay because of your gender. The responsibility belongs to the individuals and circumstances involved--not to entire genders of people. You are right that adultery is hurtful no matter, and that kind of harm is unnecessary (in consensual relationships).

But yeah, maybe we should still just agree to disagree--but if you keep arguing the topic relating to what I said, I may feel the need to say more, even if I am not making a coherent argument.


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## Souls (12 mo ago)

Congratulations, to be honest I rather have a virgin than community dick!


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## sugarbait (7 mo ago)

virginity is such a bizarre concept, do you think of the first time you brushed your teeth? or the first time you took a shower? 
people are so weird


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

sugarbait said:


> virginity is such a bizarre concept, do you think of the first time you brushed your teeth? or the first time you took a shower?
> people are so weird


No. But I was not fully aware of any concept the first time I got a shower. I do remember when I first bought a house. Or smoked some weed. Wait, I don't remember too much of that tbh. Virginity is not a bizarre concept. It has everything to do with that one act that we never openly speak of but also the act we need to accomplish to survive as a species...that moment we are all a little afraid of the first time and later learn to appreciate so much (at least I do). You can call me weird. Or Al.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I'm a 43 year old virgin and I'm genuinely curious. I'm not desperate, and I'm not interested in any of you taking my virginity, so don't worry. But please say what you really think; I can handle it. I already know I'm incompatible with the vast majority of women for various reasons, and I fully accept that. My feelings won't be hurt. Don't let the fact that I'm a Fi dom fool you.
> 
> But anyways, now that that's out of the way: How would you generally feel romantically about an older male virgin? How would you feel sexually? How would you even approach sex with him, if at all? How would you approach him romantically, if at all?


"Virgin" could be only a cultural term. It is technically just the way you are. What does your potential partner want to do? If you have a potential relationship, what are you going to do? You tell them about yourself! What do they want? Talk? Companionship? Touch? Massage? No need to go all the way. You try this and that out. See if you two get stuck. If you don't get stuck, proceed with the relationship. If you two get stuck, you proceed as with any conflict.

Two people have lots of other things going on besides sex. I outta know being married a few decades.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Let me add to that. A 43 year old has double (at least) the experience of a 22 year old. The 22 year old's culture says you are expected to go with sex as the top ingredient of a relationship. From year 22 to 43 you have found out a lot more about yourself. So much so that individual self now outweighs cultural pressures. Relationships are not obsolete but age 22 year old pressures are, relatively speaking. You are allowed to present your more mature self to any eligible situation. 

When I was 22, I was not able to handle my situation like the average guy due to being so socially retarded incuding shyness. It took me many slow years to learn something.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

BigApplePi said:


> Let me add to that. A 43 year old has double (at least) the experience of a 22 year old. The 22 year old's culture says you are expected to go with sex as the top ingredient of a relationship. From year 22 to 43 you have found out a lot more about yourself. So much so that individual self now outweighs cultural pressures. Relationships are not obsolete but age 22 year old pressures are, relatively speaking. You are allowed to present your more mature self to any eligible situation.
> 
> When I was 22, I was not able to handle my situation like the average guy due to being so socially retarded incuding shyness. It took me many slow years to learn something.


That's right. I'd also add that it depends on the individual 43 or 40+ yo (virgin), what kind of man of they are. Whether they are:

- a manchild, who still hasn't learned much, without anything to show for his age, still looking desperately to lose his virginity.
OR
- a very self assured, centered, mature, ambitious, charismatic man with achievements with loads of wisdom and life stories to share, still changing the world for the better and doesn't have time for drama-queens (and can spot them a mile away).


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Joe Black said:


> That's right. I'd also add that it depends on the individual 43 or 40+ yo (virgin), what kind of man of they are. Whether they are:
> 
> - a manchild, who still hasn't learned much, without anything to show for his age, still looking desperately to lose his virginity.
> OR
> - a very self assured, centered, mature, ambitious, charismatic man with achievements with loads of wisdom and life stories to share, still changing the world for the better and doesn't have time for drama-queens (and can spot them a mile away).


I'd say neither of your descriptions above completely describe me.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I'd say neither of your descriptions above completely describe me.


Yeah, they're just 2 extremes. Everyone lies somewhere on the spectrum of "most desireable virgin." and "least desireable virgin."


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Everyone has got to be a virgin in some way.

Never have I


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

It's not a problem. 

Each time you are with someone they have to learn about the other partner - well, unless you're all about self gratification that is.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Joe Black said:


> That's right. I'd also add that it depends on the individual 43 or 40+ yo (virgin), what kind of man of they are. Whether they are:
> 
> - a manchild, who still hasn't learned much, without anything to show for his age, still looking desperately to lose his virginity.
> OR
> - a very self assured, centered, mature, ambitious, charismatic man with achievements with loads of wisdom and life stories to share, still changing the world for the better and doesn't have time for drama-queens (and can spot them a mile away).


Obviously, the type of man you are is much more important than whether or not you have done a certain physical act.


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## Echoe (Apr 23, 2012)

I'll wonder what the reason(s) are, but that's the only concern I might have. My recent ex and I (long-distance, we didn't meet) were virgins and he was just a couple of years older than me, and we're both at ages where being virgins isn't common. We had no problem with one another's reasons for our lack of experience, and obviously we liked each other. Both of us being inexperienced in this particular instance I suspect made what we did do more comfortable for us -- we progressed at a pace that was mutually comfortable. I would think someone who's more comfortable with their sexuality might have discomfited either of us on accident at times lol. I'm not sure how common it is that two older virgins get together, but I'd say it was a boon in this case . 
But anyway, as I said, it's about the "why?" Are you religious? Waiting on marriage? Asexual? Anxiety issues? Previously religious but now you're agnostic/atheist? The "why?" should say something about compatibility.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

sugarbait said:


> virginity is such a bizarre concept, do you think of the first time you brushed your teeth? or the first time you took a shower?
> people are so weird


It was essentially a made up means to appraise and categorize women. The hymen (except they later found out it doesn't work that way) was sort of mythologized as a "Certificate of Obedience" that makes a bride a better appliance.
.
It's complete nonsense and puts so many useless, damaging false dichotomies and expectations in people's heads.

Like, can we as a species grow up from this kinda shit already? It's holding us back.


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