# When a girl asks... "so, what are we?" how do you react?



## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

I sat there on the bench near the fountain in the middle of campus, this was sophomore year in college. I stared blankly at her and couldn't find the words. I stared and stared for what must of been an eternity. Her frustration only met with my blank and pained stare back at her. 

almost 9 years later, I finally worked those emotions out and this is what I would like to say:

"I like hanging out with you and I'm not sure where exactly this is going; but with school and especially pledging going on in my life, this is kind of a difficult decision to make right now, and especially since you're putting me on the spot. can we talk about this later?"

but how I really felt:

"you're cute and you're kinda cool to hang out with, but you're also somewhat annoying and I don't think that the pros outweigh the cons in this situation. Though, I'm willing to mull around and string you along as long as you're willing to get ignored and treated like crap. Otherwise, if you're not down for that, we should probably just be friends-- which actually means we should never talk again and hate each other's guts forever, but pretend to be cool with each other."

(female INTP's feel free to reverse the situation. Although I always assumed it rare for the guy to be pressing the "relationship" issues.)

fuckin 9 years later, i swear. I finally figured it all out.


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## Doctor von Science (Jun 6, 2011)

"So, what are we?"

"In order of decreasing specificity: **** Sapiens. Hominids. Bipeds. Mammals. Vertebrates. Animals. Conglomerations of cells. Entities (Organic). Assortments of atoms. Nouns."


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## Kestrel (Jun 22, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> (female INTP's feel free to reverse the situation. Although I always assumed it rare for the guy to be pressing the "relationship" issues.)


Not when the girl is an IxTP.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Bipeds.10legs


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

"An enigma"


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## Celtic Dreams (Sep 7, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> I sat there on the bench near the fountain in the middle of campus, this was sophomore year in college. I stared blankly at her and couldn't find the words. I stared and stared for what must of been an eternity. Her frustration only met with my blank and pained stare back at her.
> 
> almost 9 years later, I finally worked those emotions out and this is what I would like to say:
> 
> ...



OMG I'm sorry fellow F's but I love this post. I think I would actually really like it in retrospect if someone could be that blunt with me. I spend so much time wondering how people really feel it would be awesome to know for sure. And I think it's really cool that you are still thinking about it after 9 years. How non-shallow is that?


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

Reproductive systems with legs.


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## APennySaved (Jan 20, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> I sat there on the bench near the fountain in the middle of campus, this was sophomore year in college. I stared blankly at her and couldn't find the words. I stared and stared for what must of been an eternity. Her frustration only met with my blank and pained stare back at her.
> 
> almost 9 years later, I finally worked those emotions out and this is what I would like to say:
> 
> ...


Rare for the guy to be pressing the "relationship" issues? In my experience this is universal haha. Let us note, though, that it could still be a rarity in general since female INTPs are rare.

I wonder, how does an INTP EVER come to elect marriage for herself? Pregnancy = no-brainer. It's always possible to get your foot caught in that door if you're using it. But marriage? Even the most hard core infatuation would be incapable of bringing me to a decision to say Oh yeah I'm sure. FOREVER.

PS. the word "pledging" made me wince, friend.:frustrating::shocked:


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

This is what I call A Typical Girl Question. Translations; Where is this relationship going?, do you really like me?, am I wasting my time with you? Men usually have a difficult time sensing their own feelings. It is a useful intelligence to develop.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Men usually have a difficult time sensing their own feelings.


I would rather make this a typist thing rather than a sexist thing, but ok. hahahahahhaha.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

Jumping on the female INTP bandwagon -- in my worldview men are emotional, needy, possessive creatures that seek relationship validation constantly. They're always the first to want to call it a relationship, to say "I love you," to hint at the long term. I had one (now ex-)boyfriend ask me to marry him and I pretty much just laughed. 

Now, I know this is a huge generalization and I am certainly not implying that all men are like this. It is likely that I (as an INTP) attract these types of people or at least stay aloof enough that someone who wouldn't otherwise behave this way feels the need to.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> Jumping on the female INTP bandwagon -- in my worldview men are emotional, needy, possessive creatures that seek relationship validation constantly. They're always the first to want to call it a relationship, to say "I love you," to hint at the long term. I had one (now ex-)boyfriend ask me to marry him and I pretty much just laughed.
> 
> Now, I know this is a huge generalization and I am certainly not implying that all men are like this. It is likely that I (as an INTP) attract these types of people or at least stay aloof enough that someone who wouldn't otherwise behave this way feels the need to.


You sure you're not just attracting F types?


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## anarchitektur (Feb 11, 2011)

It never ceases to both amuse and annoy, this propensity to label and categorize relationships. And then when a relationship does not fit neatly into one category or another, it is stuck in this state of limbo that all but ensures that it will reach a logical conclusion. It is not the being in limbo--the "no man's land" between categories--that is ultimately the issue; instead, it is the _awareness_ that something in that person's life cannot be easily cataloged and referenced, making it impossible to see a clearly-defined path to the future. That person's illusions about the level of control that he or she has over the course of their life become glaringly obvious, and rather than come to terms with that uncertainty and accept things for what they are, we are driven to self-sabotage--destroying that which makes us happy in order to bring some semblance of order and predictability in this universe of chaos. People are stupid.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

mkeath said:


> You sure you're not just attracting F types?


I think I said that ...


Chrysantheist said:


> It is likely that I (as an INTP)* attract these types of people* or at least stay aloof enough that someone who wouldn't otherwise behave this way feels the need to.


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## DustyDrill (May 20, 2011)

My response would be: "Why do you ask?"

Then I'd sit back and enjoy the juicy flow of information.


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## Kestrel (Jun 22, 2011)

mkeath said:


> You sure you're not just attracting F types?


You sure they aren't just hiding this side of them from you and the other guys on this thread, due to fear of society's perceptions and expectations?

Male feelers aren't that uncommon.


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## APennySaved (Jan 20, 2011)

Mad Psychologist said:


> This is what I call A Typical Girl Question. Translations; Where is this relationship going?, do you really like me?, am I wasting my time with you? Men usually have a difficult time sensing their own feelings. It is a useful intelligence to develop.


I think it's noble that you're able to take such an unflinching inventory of your personal strengths and weaknesses, but the ambition to project this on your gender versus mine is a misstep, I think. Ask your local INFJ male, for example, if he struggles with this and you'll discover that having a penis, while crucial for you in many other areas, I'm sure, is not central to this discussion.

If I am in error, someone please help me better understand how this is a gender-specific issue.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Kestrel said:


> You sure they aren't just hiding this side of them from you and the other guys on this thread, due to fear of society's perceptions and expectations?
> 
> Male feelers aren't that uncommon.


Actually for some reason, I have had a lot of guys open up emotionally to me. Not romantically, but with their problems. So yes, I know male feelers aren't that uncommon. They tend to congregate around me.



Chrysantheist said:


> I think I said that ...


Oops, I missed that.


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

Not a clue, would depend on what I happened to think we were at the time, although the necessity to ask the question would leave me somewhat perplexed by the fact that she couldn’t have determined the answer herself. If I thought it was a vague and safe attempt at trying to get me to voluntarily divulge a more specific piece of information, I would ask her to kindly rephrase the question.
I seriously doubt I will ever have to field this question though, no woman would be interested in sharing any sort of status with me.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

I would imagine that question is asking "where are you in this relationship?" I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't know where they were if they were being honest to themselves. Idealistically, I would know exactly where I was, but putting that into words wouldn't seem very organic. I would prefer for the other person to discover how I felt rather than be told.


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Well putting that aside, What other areas of your life would be positively effected by having more confidence and better social skills?
> Hey, I have a little time on my hands and I am just trying to help you out. I am going to give you a few examples based on this.
> I was an employer for nearly seven years. So...
> Would I hire someone who doesn't seem to be confident in themself?
> ...


Yeah I’ve been quite aware of the benefits of confidence for some time now, having lived most of my life without. Regardless of the need for confidence, conjuring it up out of thin air isn’t easy. I’m a perfectionist so I can always find fault in something I’ve done, and blame myself for it. When I’m praised I can easily acknowledge that I’m never fully in control at any given time, even a successful result can be largely due to luck and help from others, so it’s quite easy to rob myself of confidence in that situation too.
It is extremely difficult to be truly certain of one’s own capacity, if they can reproduce the same result each time, at least for me anyway.

Ironically being honest about my lack of confidence(I can’t operate in any other fashion) got me the research internship for my masters. They admired the fact that I didn’t start off with a naive arrogance under the assumption that I would be more open to learning as I went along. Yes, it was research, I know that the world of business rarely functions in the same manner. I certainly don’t see myself climbing the corporate ladder, so long as I’m paid to have a certain freedom of thought then I’m happy. Here’s hoping research will get me that, if I don’t fail the Phd.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

REEPER said:


> Yeah I’ve been quite aware of the benefits of confidence for some time now, having lived most of my life without. Regardless of the need for confidence, conjuring it up out of thin air isn’t easy. I’m a perfectionist so I can always find fault in something I’ve done, and blame myself for it. When I’m praised I can easily acknowledge that I’m never fully in control at any given time, even a successful result can be largely due to luck and help from others, so it’s quite easy to rob myself of confidence in that situation too.
> It is extremely difficult to be truly certain of one’s own capacity, if they can reproduce the same result each time, at least for me anyway.
> 
> Ironically being honest about my lack of confidence(I can’t operate in any other fashion) got me the research internship for my masters. They admired the fact that I didn’t start off with a naive arrogance under the assumption that I would be more open to learning as I went along. Yes, it was research, I know that the world of business rarely functions in the same manner. I certainly don’t see myself climbing the corporate ladder, so long as I’m paid to have a certain freedom of thought then I’m happy. Here’s hoping research will get me that, if I don’t fail the Phd.


I would again recommend looking up David DeAngelo. I seems to me you have a self image problem. He covers all sorts of very helpful topics. Confidence, attitude, self image, social skills, body language any many more useful things...


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

REEPER said:


> Not a clue, would depend on what I happened to think we were at the time, although the necessity to ask the question would leave me somewhat perplexed by the fact that she couldn’t have determined the answer herself. If I thought it was a vague and safe attempt at trying to get me to voluntarily divulge a more specific piece of information, I would ask her to kindly rephrase the question.
> I seriously doubt I will ever have to field this question though, no woman would be interested in sharing any sort of status with me.


@REEPER I'm glad @Mad Psychologist opened you up bc I had actually assumed (prior to this thread) that you were a very confident man skilled in the usage of self deprecating humor; it saddens me to find out you are actually that down and insecure about yourself

I do believe a lifetime of being you has gotten yourself brainwashed

I guarantee that all it will take is for you to get a glimpse of the effects confidence has on the opposite sex to change your tune

The human brain is able to trick itself into accepting reality: you've convinced yourself that you deserve to be single and that being confident would be "acting like someone else."

Allow me to do some reverse brain washing. You are not you right now. See, we start out as extremely confident selfish narcissistic souls and it is society which makes us feel lacking and insecure. It is our parents who place the first set of boundaries on us. Otherwise, every kid believes "I want this and I'm entitled to it."

Reeper, you've been brainwashed into a pattern of negative thinking by a lifetime of rejection. Your job is even an enabling factor! Lol. It justifies your insecure behavior, although it came across as humble. See, I personally sense a very confident man waiting to bust out of his cocoon. I don't bullshit either and I don't give enabling advice. I say this bc you freely posted your pix and even made self deprecating remarks. In an ironic twist of irony, you probably have more confidence than many of the confident people you know.

I would take @Mad Psychologist advice and checkout David dangelo 

I also believe u would do quite well with an INFP girl; they are weird enough to understand and appreciate our minds; they assist us w the expression of our emotions; we do enable each other's procrastination though 




Mad Psychologist said:


> INTP women are very very rare. You are special!


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> @REEPER I'm glad @Mad Psychologist opened you up bc I had actually assumed (prior to this thread) that you were a very confident man skilled in the usage of self deprecating humor; it saddens me to find out you are actually that down and insecure about yourself


What if it’s all just a very clever and elaborate ruse, the biggest demonstration of falsified self deprecation these forums have ever seen!
More seriously, I occasionally engage in self deprecation for the laughs but I do have confidence issues if I were to be compared with most others, yeah.



SaiKick said:


> I guarantee that all it will take is for you to get a glimpse of the effects confidence has on the opposite sex to change your tune


I have already seen it at work, a few times. In the cases I’ve observed it, the displays were largely superficial and projected for the sole purpose of appearing confident, but a good few members of the opposite sex lapped it up.
It’s just not in my nature to pretend otherwise, so doing my generic thing I’m guessing most women perceive me as the genderless entity occupying that space over there.



SaiKick said:


> The human brain is able to trick itself into accepting reality: you've convinced yourself that you deserve to be single and that being confident would be "acting like someone else."
> 
> Allow me to do some reverse brain washing. You are not you right now. See, we start out as extremely confident selfish narcissistic souls and it is society which makes us feel lacking and insecure. It is our parents who place the first set of boundaries on us. Otherwise, every kid believes "I want this and I'm entitled to it."
> 
> Reeper, you've been brainwashed into a pattern of negative thinking by a lifetime of rejection. Your job is even an enabling factor! Lol. It justifies your insecure behavior, although it came across as humble. See, I personally sense a very confident man waiting to bust out of his cocoon. I don't bullshit either and I don't give enabling advice. I say this bc you freely posted your pix and even made self deprecating remarks. In an ironic twist of irony, you probably have more confidence than many of the confident people you know.


I appreciate the vote of confidence(lawl). I’m not sure deserve is the right word, just the way things worked out really, I try to be a realist. Having accepted my lot in life, posting my pics isn’t an issue, if people give me some insight into what it is about me that’s off then I can at least understand things better, if they ignore them or comment nicely to be kind then that’s fine too. I’d only have reason to be worried if I thought I was fantastic only to be mocked by others(not that that would happen here)

I do what it is I think I have to do when I have the energy and motivation to do it, I might think there’s a good chance I will fail but I still give it a go(i.e. Phd). It’s not confidence per se, just me trying to discover the structure of reality and my capacities at the same time.



SaiKick said:


> I would take @Mad Psychologist advice and checkout David dangelo
> 
> I also believe u would do quite well with an INFP girl; they are weird enough to understand and appreciate our minds; they assist us w the expression of our emotions; we do enable each other's procrastination though


I’ll have a look although this sort of stuff rarely appeals to any part of me that could get anything going, if I first deemed it worthy of a try.

I’m sure there are plenty of understanding women out there in one form or another, it’s just that my experience dictates that as a package I don’t appeal to them. It’s very difficult for me to see how I could possibly project confidence without coming across as an ass, or subtly display confidence through my actions when in all honesty I never know if I’ll achieve what I’ve set out to do to the extent I would prefer.

I’ve never felt held back as such, restrained by a lack of confidence, it’s very much an intricate part of my natural philosophy and it’s difficult to see how this would change. Combine that with absolutely no desire to act in order to attract people to me in spite of this, and I guess I am built to spend my time alone.
It’s probably better that a trait such as mine doesn’t propagate in the population anyway xD


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

I guarantee that all it will take is for you to get a glimpse of the effects confidence has on the opposite sex to change your tune

The human brain is able to trick itself into accepting reality: you've convinced yourself that you deserve to be single and that being confident would be "acting like someone else."

Allow me to do some reverse brain washing. 

Reeper, you've been brainwashed into a pattern of negative thinking by a lifetime of rejection. Your job is even an enabling factor! Lol. It justifies your insecure behavior, although it came across as humble. See, I personally sense a very confident man waiting to bust out of his cocoon. 

I couldn't have said it better!


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

@REEPER

The self fulfilling prophecy is an amazing yet baffling concept that you'll have to accept. An example is just assuming that the girl wants you b4 she does. In a catch-22 paradox, she will be attracted to your confident projection, which will in turn fuel more confidence. But, without this initial positive assumption, which you will reason as illogical, it is unlikely to make much progress. 

Imagine Simba in The Lion King; maybe he began a bit shy and insecure; but when is the last time u actually saw a lion second guess his rightful place in the wild?

Girls are weird creatures for sure, but it's nonsense to assume that our existence is anything but the Successful mating w the opposite sex. (not debating homosexuality here, the comment includes slight sarcasm)

A baseball pitcher won't strike out any batters without this special "mojo" or confidence, especially not with the attitude of "there's a good probability I'll fail." that woul be self fulfilling prophecy working against you.

Try this one on for size: "no girl shall be impervious to my charms bc it is her loss"

Being physically attractive is a fast way to short circuit their brain; however you really are answering your own questions: I recommend you try very hard to truly " be yourself" and be an "ass," ass you mention, it is this assholeness that secretly attracts them, and they hate to admit it but it's true. In this manner, you are currently not being yourself and only presenting an image of what you think they want. 

Remove the tact in your life and as cliche as it is, yea just be your asshole self.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

p.s. When you offend a girl, she is actually secretly impressed at the size of your balls. The more attractive the girl, the larger your balls will appear. Confucius say. Lol. Don't let any girl make you think otherwise. They are not logical creatures, but ruled by their emotions, so not much of their behavior will make logical sense at first bc it's not immediately intuitive. 

A girl will likely be attracted to the guy in the room that insults her rather than the other 99% of guys who feed her compliments. Go figure. It's why you see more hot girls hanging from the arms of douchebags, it's the confidence which should be emulated, not the douchiness (good to make this distinction)


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> @REEPER
> 
> The self fulfilling prophecy is an amazing yet baffling concept that you'll have to accept. An example is just assuming that the girl wants you b4 she does. In a catch-22 paradox, she will be attracted to your confident projection, which will in turn fuel more confidence. But, without this initial positive assumption, which you will reason as illogical, it is unlikely to make much progress.
> 
> ...


I agree with SaiKick a 100% ! Most women are attracted to the Bad boy / Alpha male type. They may not wan't to admit it but, the numbers don't lie. The women will love you and the men will respect you.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> p.s. When you offend a girl, she is actually secretly impressed at the size of your balls. The more attractive the girl, the larger your balls will appear. Confucius say. Lol. Don't let any girl make you think otherwise. They are not logical creatures, but ruled by their emotions, so not much of their behavior will make logical sense at first bc it's not immediately intuitive.
> 
> A girl will likely be attracted to the guy in the room that insults her rather than the other 99% of guys who feed her compliments. Go figure. It's why you see more hot girls hanging from the arms of douchebags, it's the confidence which should be emulated, not the douchiness (good to make this distinction)


This is called counter intuitive or an automatic behavior response / natural instict.


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

Whilst I really do appreciate the input and advice from both of you, and I have no intent to belittle any of it, none of this is particularly news to me. I’m not a nice guy, nor am I the master of tact, but actively trying to do, even benign, assholey things is a bit of a stretch for me.

I’ve been sarcastic with women(the sword of the INTP and as close to an asshole as I will go without taking acting lessons), sometimes at their expense and I have noticed a slight peak of interest due to that. The thing is, I don’t mind communicating my thought processes and explaining what I do and why I do it. I think this eliminates “getting to the know the guy” factor that women enjoy in the beginning, I’ve found that a mixture of sarcasm and mystery keeps the women interested but when you hand the information to them on a platter then sarcasm isn’t enough. This is but one of the attracting dynamics I’ve observed between men and women, I seem to be lacking in all of them.

Regardless, I’m not a manipulator of people or my image, I do what comes naturally and let the cards fall where they may. At the risk of sounding arrogant, my inner asshole is either extremely deeply suppressed(this analogy is starting to sound dodgy) or it doesn’t exist at all. I realised this at a relatively young age and so I waited to see if there was a type of woman that could find me attractive for what I am, and from what I can see no such woman exists.

The idea of a companion sounds pleasant enough when considered superficially but in reality it is often a difficult thing to have to, and want to, maintain. I have no experience in the domain, so it’s hard for me to desperately desire that which I do not know enough to force myself to be an asshole, I’m definitely not going out of my way to repress being captain of the asshats so my acting skills will have to be top notch(I need to drop this ass analogy)


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## Super Awesome (Jul 11, 2011)

While it's true, some of us like the alpha male type, let me please point out there's a vast difference between an alpha male and an asshole. Confidence is sexy; insults and assholishness is not. We look at the guy who's just being himself - no false flattery, no bullshit. 

As for the original question, if a woman asks what you are, just tell her, upfront and honest. Sometimes we're asking to make sure you're not getting too serious too fast. I once had a casual fling spring a proposal on me. I had no idea he felt _that_ way. If I'd asked, I would have known. I can't speak for all women, but I like to know where I stand - good, bad, or otherwise. And I've never been upset if a guy has just said, "I don't know," or, "Let's be friends."


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> Try this one on for size: "no girl shall be impervious to my charms bc it is her loss"


I would not be able to think that and keep a straight face.


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

Super Awesome said:


> While it's true, some of us like the alpha male type, let me please point out there's a vast difference between an alpha male and an asshole. Confidence is sexy; insults and assholishness is not. We look at the guy who's just being himself - no false flattery, no bullshit.
> 
> As for the original question, if a woman asks what you are, just tell her, upfront and honest. Sometimes we're asking to make sure you're not getting too serious too fast. I once had a casual fling spring a proposal on me. I had no idea he felt _that_ way. If I'd asked, I would have known. I can't speak for all women, but I like to know where I stand - good, bad, or otherwise. And I've never been upset if a guy has just said, "I don't know," or, "Let's be friends."


You should be in the kitchen ! Hey guyz amidoinitrite ?

Yeah I think I tried to state this in the beginning(or not, my memory is shit) that my issue is a more deeply rooted philosophical one, I feel it is false to pretend I am certain when I’m not and this is communicated both directly and in how I act. Even benign acts of assholery would do nothing to compensate for this underlying issue, my mindset if that of an uncertain observer/experimenter who is constantly testing and reevaluating hypotheses. I’ve tried to be upfront with why I am the way I am, but that’s instant woman comatose in the making.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

Hey Reeper, just think it over for a while. In my opinion women are awesome! Sure they can be a pain in the ass sometimes and be a lot of work... but, nothing can compare. A man hasn't really lived until he has experienced them.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> p.s. When you offend a girl, she is actually secretly impressed at the size of your balls. The more attractive the girl, the larger your balls will appear. Confucius say. Lol. Don't let any girl make you think otherwise. They are not logical creatures, but ruled by their emotions, so not much of their behavior will make logical sense at first bc it's not immediately intuitive.
> 
> A girl will likely be attracted to the guy in the room that insults her rather than the other 99% of guys who feed her compliments. Go figure. It's why you see more hot girls hanging from the arms of douchebags, it's the confidence which should be emulated, not the douchiness (good to make this distinction)


That is such terrible advice. I'm not going to be attracted to someone who insults and belittles me. You have to be some kind of insecure to fall for something like that. Frankly, I would much rather be flattered by someone who is confident and charming. But if you're trying to get a girl who thinks so little of herself that she hangs off your insults like they're compliments... well, you get what you deserve.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

REEPER said:


> I would not be able to think that and keep a straight face.


It is a counter intuitive technique he is refering to. I wish you could see it in action.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

Super Awesome said:


> While it's true, some of us like the alpha male type, let me please point out there's a vast difference between an alpha male and an asshole. Confidence is sexy; insults and assholishness is not. We look at the guy who's just being himself - no false flattery, no bullshit.
> 
> As for the original question, if a woman asks what you are, just tell her, upfront and honest. Sometimes we're asking to make sure you're not getting too serious too fast. I once had a casual fling spring a proposal on me. I had no idea he felt _that_ way. If I'd asked, I would have known. I can't speak for all women, but I like to know where I stand - good, bad, or otherwise. And I've never been upset if a guy has just said, "I don't know," or, "Let's be friends."


Good point! I am not advocating that a man should actually be an asshole. It is more like an aspect of an attitude. It is an attribute of an alpha male.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> That is such terrible advice. I'm not going to be attracted to someone who insults and belittles me. You have to be some kind of insecure to fall for something like that. Frankly, I would much rather be flattered by someone who is confident and charming. But if you're trying to get a girl who thinks so little of herself that she hangs off your insults like they're compliments... well, you get what you deserve.


I am going to clarify here and I think SaiKick would agree. It isn't insulting he is actually doing. To be more precise, it is more like picking on a woman in a cocky yet humoris way. If you insult anyone, they are just going to hate you. This is about establishing status, creating attraction, sexual tension etc...

The female version is like, being sassy, difficult, hard to get etc...


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> That is such terrible advice. I'm not going to be attracted to someone who insults and belittles me. You have to be some kind of insecure to fall for something like that. Frankly, I would much rather be flattered by someone who is confident and charming. But if you're trying to get a girl who thinks so little of herself that she hangs off your insults like they're compliments... well, you get what you deserve.


I think the manner in which he put it was slightly exaggerated, I have witnessed that many women enjoy a playful mutual teasing with someone they're interested in, so long as it remains playful.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Mad Psychologist said:


> I am going to clarify here and I think SaiKick would agree. It isn't insulting he is actually doing. To be more precise, it is more like picking on a woman in a cocky yet humoris way. If you insult anyone, they are just going to hate you. This is about establishing status, creating attraction, sexual tension etc...
> 
> The female version is like, being sassy, difficult, hard to get etc...


1. Well, first of all, he really framed it poorly then; if he's being misunderstood, it's his own fault. I mean, look at this: "When you offend a girl, she is actually secretly impressed at the size of your balls. The more attractive the girl, the larger your balls will appear. Confucius say. Lol. Don't let any girl make you think otherwise. They are not logical creatures, but ruled by their emotions, so not much of their behavior will make logical sense at first bc it's not immediately intuitive. A girl will likely be attracted to the guy in the room that insults her rather than the other 99% of guys who feed her compliments..." 

Actually, now that I've read it again, I think it's even crappier than my first recollection told me it was. "Not logical creatures but ruled by emotions?" Geeeeeeesh.

2. Playing "hard to get with a guy" is NOTHING like "insulting women." 

Yes, "teasing banter" is part of sex play, but if that's what you mean, say that. Don't call it "insulting women" and then insult our intelligence to boot.


----------



## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

REEPER said:


> I think the manner in which he put it was slightly exaggerated, I have witnessed that many women enjoy a playful mutual teasing with someone they're interested in, so long as it remains playful.


He's using pickup artist strategies to pick up women. Pickup artists like to use this thing called "negging" which basically entails pointing out someone's flaws and pretending to be cute about it. I enjoy teasing and flirting very much, but I can't stand backhanded compliments. Either you're sincere or you're not. 

Like I said earlier, some girls will go for it, but I can't imagine having a real relationship with someone who thinks it's their job to take me down a notch. I might engage in a fling with a person like that for fun, but I would never seriously consider that person for a relationship, because I expect my partners will try to _build me up_ instead (and likewise, I would do the same to them). 

Pickup artist strategies are lame and demeaning to both men and women.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

REEPER said:


> I think the manner in which he put it was slightly exaggerated, I have witnessed that many women enjoy a playful mutual teasing with someone they're interested in, so long as it remains playful.


Yeah, thats it! You see most women respond to emotion, drama, mystery etc... Hey, guys like it to!. And who doesn't appreciate something or someone who is somewhat unpredictable, more fun, interesting, dynamic etc...


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Some people are naturals and some people just are not. You should check out David DeAngelo. He is on Youtube also.
> Learning, effort, and practice are in direct proportion to success. One of my theories is that pessimistic people tend to be less successful.
> The phrase I can't is a self defeating and self fulfilling prophesy....
> 
> ...


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Yeah, thats it! You see most women respond to emotion, drama, mystery etc... Hey, guys like it to!. And who doesn't appreciate something or someone who is somewhat unpredictable, more fun, interesting, dynamic etc...


There is a big difference between PUA manipulation and what I would call playful flirting ... which is what I perceive you are describing here (and which I think actually is fun and constructive).

You can engage each other in a playful way, with emotion and drama and mystery, to build some suspense and anticipation... but that has nothing to do with insulting and manipulating each other as if they're stupid.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

I perceive you are describing here (and which I think actually is fun and constructive).
You can engage each other in a playful way said:


> This is what I am talking about! To be honest I find guys who are PUA' s to be players. This has very bad connotations....


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> He's using pickup artist strategies to pick up women. Pickup artists like to use this thing called "negging" which basically entails pointing out someone's flaws and pretending to be cute about it. I enjoy teasing and flirting very much, but I can't stand backhanded compliments. Either you're sincere or you're not.
> 
> Like I said earlier, some girls will go for it, but I can't imagine having a real relationship with someone who thinks it's their job to take me down a notch. I might engage in a fling with a person like that for fun, but I would never seriously consider that person for a relationship, because I expect my partners will try to _build me up_ instead (and likewise, I would do the same to them).
> 
> Pickup artist strategies are lame and demeaning to both men and women.


Thank you for your perspective but, I think you may be misunderstanding the intention. PUA's and players are bad in my book!
So is manipulation.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Thank you for your perspective but, I think you may be misunderstanding the intention. PUA's and players are bad in my book!
> So is manipulation.


I'm talking about the strategies @SaiKick is promoting. This is not the first time I've seen him suggest PUA strategies to attract girls. I apologize if it seemed critical of you, as I am using external information to make such statements.


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Yeah, thats it! You see most women respond to emotion, drama, mystery etc... Hey, guys like it to!. And who doesn't appreciate something or someone who is somewhat unpredictable, more fun, interesting, dynamic etc...


I know, sadly I’m not very good at knowingly creating these somewhat pointless constructs, I tend to naturally prioritise convergence, as best as possible, upon truth. In order to achieve this, I aim for honest, concise and well thought out communication with others to avoid ambiguity and to get the best out of each person’s point of view(I place great emphasis on aim, not saying I do achieve it)
If you do this all the time, you tend to become a boring person and women are especially unresponsive to this approach over extended periods of time. That said, I’ve never been around a woman long enough for this to properly come into play, so I’m guessing they either anticipate it early on or something else eliminates interest from the outset. As stated before, PUA isn’t a decent approach to the issue and whilst I’m aware of at least some of my issues, some things you either have or you don’t.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

The being yourself thing actually works. If you actually are confident, it shows. I have personally been experimenting with just walking up to girls and having a conversation. It's amazing what confidence will do. The walls that girls put up to see if you're confident crumble with ease, and it's easy to see their surprise at their tricks being so easily thwarted. I am not claiming to be a master at all. I view myself as just getting started. Yeah it's a game, but I have started looking at it as a game of strategy, and empathy is one of my many weapons.

As far as the whole douchebag thing goes, that is a way to play off of a girl's emotions to get them to wonder why you aren't interested in them at all. It's a great way to draw the girl in quick, but it's not great for a long-term relationship. Being a douchebag is a method of displaying that you actively don't want the girl. Being confident is displaying that you actively don't need the girl, but you're definitely interested. But ultimately, it's about being yourself.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> That is such terrible advice. I'm not going to be attracted to someone who insults and belittles me. You have to be some kind of insecure to fall for something like that. Frankly, I would much rather be flattered by someone who is confident and charming. But if you're trying to get a girl who thinks so little of herself that she hangs off your insults like they're compliments... well, you get what you deserve.


This is an example of my work in action.
I did get her attention
Which is the whole point


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## ProfessorLiver (Mar 19, 2011)

I've only been asked this once, but I was honest, articulated my concerns, weighed what I believed to be the pros, and the cons, and why it all meant fuck all because I was in love with her. And fucking four months later, I figured it out.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Mad Psychologist said:


> I am going to clarify here and I think SaiKick would agree. It isn't insulting he is actually doing. To be more precise, it is more like picking on a woman in a cocky yet humoris way. If you insult anyone, they are just going to hate you. This is about establishing status, creating attraction, sexual tension etc...
> 
> The female version is like, being sassy, difficult, hard to get etc...


Lol girls have make up, high heels, push up bras, and short black dresses
They're just annoyed we've cracked their game


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## Strat19 (May 15, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> They're just annoyed we've cracked their game


*facepalm* 

PU is just an overcomplication of a very simple concept: confidence + dominance + social status = attraction.



SaiKick said:


> They are not logical creatures


Attraction has nothing to do with one's being a logical/illogical person.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> This is an example of my work in action.
> I did get her attention
> Which is the whole point


 
This will work on some women, sometime.... Not the quality women from my experience. I went to one of Mystery's work shops in Vegas a few years ago. Well..., I am just not impressed.


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## absent air (Dec 7, 2010)

Any female pickup artist out there?

Thaat would be funny


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

absent air said:


> Any female pickup artist out there?
> 
> Thaat would be funny


Well, there is Marie Forleo. I read one her books.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

mkeath said:


> You sure you're not just attracting F types?


bah, i'd rather have casual dating with one person than adopt all the social obligations and then start forcing ourselves to act in a way that isn't genuine. i kind of grew out of the whole "defining relationship" thing when i was a teenager.

i think the need to hear what's what from the other person is coming from an insecurity on the part of the asker... that may be an F thing, but i don't suffer from it. (although i think a distinction should be made about addressing a potential problem within the relationship and trying your best to hear an answer that would normally put your mind at ease).


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> I'm talking about the strategies @SaiKick is promoting. This is not the first time I've seen him suggest PUA strategies to attract girls. I apologize if it seemed critical of you, as I am using external information to make such statements.


I'm so horny
It's okay my will is good 

PUA is your label btw 
Asshole is only somewhere along the confidence spectrum 

Insecure--indifferent--confident--arrogant--cocky--asshole--douchebag

It's not my problem if you've gotten fucked over b4 and u wanna take it out on me
I don't screw around like that
We're here helping a bro get over his insecurities or whatever
Your 2 cents are appreciated but u def take our/my statements out of context 
Yes it's a public forum, but it's like u walked into the men's restroom
This is how we talk when ladies aren't present
Any man who thinks otherwise is lying


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> I'm so horny
> It's okay my will is good
> 
> PUA is your label btw
> ...


LOL. No. I've never been fucked over. :happy: All of my previous boyfriends/girlfriends/lovers have been absolutely wonderful and I'm glad to have had them in my life for the joy, pleasure, and personal growth they've provided me. Like I said earlier, I don't engage in relationships with people who put me down. The result has been overwhelmingly positive. This isn't a gendered thing, it's about treating people with decency, respect, and care. 

I'm just so perplexed right now by this entire post of yours. Are you high? 

You talk like an SJ.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

REEPER said:


> I know, sadly I’m not very good at knowingly creating these somewhat pointless constructs, I tend to naturally prioritise convergence, as best as possible, upon truth. In order to achieve this, I aim for honest, concise and well thought out communication with others to avoid ambiguity and to get the best out of each person’s point of view(I place great emphasis on aim, not saying I do achieve it)
> If you do this all the time, you tend to become a boring person and women are especially unresponsive to this approach over extended periods of time. That said, I’ve never been around a woman long enough for this to properly come into play, so I’m guessing they either anticipate it early on or something else eliminates interest from the outset. As stated before, PUA isn’t a decent approach to the issue and whilst I’m aware of at least some of my issues, some things you either have or you don’t.


Dude u can let me know if I'm way off, but I think Ur in denial about desiring a female
You have to admit first that being lonely sucks ass
It's cool to be single, I've been for a while, prior I was in a six yr relationship so next time around I'm being more picky, don't wanna waste time w someone who's not long term

And, it is a fukkin game like chess or politics
I hated at first and just learned the rules
I wish u could just walk up to a girl and say "I think u r so beautiful I'd marry u rite now"
I wish we could just be honest
But I'm results oriented and that shut doesn't work
If you want success you have to speak their language
I find "PUA" insulting bc that assumes malicious intent
Fuck it
Get the #, crumple it up and throw it away
I never done that haha, just an idea
And I don't claim to be a guru, these are just facts of life
Girls dig "assholes" and u can assume whatever u want when I say that
It's no different than donning your suit n tie for work when the "real you" is jeans n tshirt
U just have to play their game
The caveat is that your true love will likely fall in Ur lao somehow and not fall for all this bullshit; the catch-22 is that w/o all this knowledge and experience, I doubt u will really become the man to attract the girl that u really want

It's very difficult for INTP males in the dating scene, likely bc we're too analytical and relationships are meant to be felt

Let your heart and your feelings guide your actions for a while and try to just bypass Ur logic filter; this might help u still be yourself while projecting that inner confidence


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## username (Apr 6, 2010)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Let me turn the table here. So why do women wear makeup, go to the hair stylist, get highlights, work out, buy nice clothes and shoes, get breast augmentations etc.... answer, one of the answers is; They want to be more attractive to the opposite sex.
> They know this works and that is what they do. Is is somewhat fake? Yes it is! Does it work? Yes it does!
> All we are tring to stress or impress upon Reeper is most women like men. Men who act like men. Confident, strong, outgoing, social,
> etc... I am not advocating guys should act like jerks to women. Not at all! But.., a guy who is more like an Alpha male and has a somewhat bad boy edge to his attitude and personality. He will with out a doubt attract more women! This has been tested and this is a fact.
> Answer this honestly; Are you attracted to shy, timid men who may be pushovers?


Yes, yes, I am _very_ attracted to shy, timid men who seem like pushovers. Why? Kindness is the most attractive trait to me.

My current boyfriend (ENTP) is not shy or timid, but I spent the past eleven years of my life dating only shy, timid men. The ENTP actually frightened me off in the beginning because I was not at all attracted to his boldness, but he has other redeeming qualities and is truly a nice guy.

Oh, and I disagree that keeping up one's appearance is fake. It's just keeping up one's appearance.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Mad Psychologist said:


> Well, If that is your picture in your profile. You at the very, very least average, above average in my opinion. Secondly, women do not put nearly as much value on looks as men do. This is a classic misconception we men make. We assume women value looks most because that is what we do. Women value personality, confidence, a sense of humor, charisma, status, earnings or earning potential,
> social proof and many other things...
> Now if you are hung up on your looks and you let it effect your confidence and social life. You are seriously selling yourself short!
> You are pursuing a PHD. correct? Women love doctors. Huge plus! That is like having a pair of aces in your hand.


"women" as a whole do not agree on what "women" as a whole like. it depends on the individual. "women love doctors" - what kind of shallow female would date a guy simply because he has a high paying career? a shallow one. is that really what an intp male wants, a shallow female?

i have certainly known many females who put emphasis on looks, however i disagree with your assessment of his looks. i think there are plenty who would find him attractive. not everyone is into guys who look like christian bale. 

anyway, just find someone you connect with, who has values similar to your own. don't worry about the stereotypes ffs.. because you don't want someone whos a walking stereotype either.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

username said:


> Yes, yes, I am _very_ attracted to shy, timid men who seem like pushovers. Why? Kindness is the most attractive trait to me.
> 
> My current boyfriend (ENTP) is not shy or timid, but I spent the past eleven years of my life dating only shy, timid men. The ENTP actually frightened me off in the beginning because I was not at all attracted to his boldness, but he has other redeeming qualities and is truly a nice guy.


i have generally avoided those who seem very conventionally masculine, myself. i wouldn't go so far as to say that the guys i have dated were all timid though.. they just lacked the comical masculine traits that culture indoctrinates them with. and thats probably why i have avoided that - its a joke to me. like a cartoon character. 

another potential reason: in an aggressive male theres often this implication that hes in control. i seek an equal.. not a daddy.


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

username said:


> Yes, yes, I am _very_ attracted to shy, timid men who seem like pushovers. Why? Kindness is the most attractive trait to me.
> 
> My current boyfriend (ENTP) is not shy or timid, but I spent the past eleven years of my life dating only shy, timid men. The ENTP actually frightened me off in the beginning because I was not at all attracted to his boldness, but he has other redeeming qualities and is truly a nice guy.


This is why I said most, not all. There are reasons why some women like the shy guys.

An after thought; If a person is shy, timid, and not outgoing, how is this person ever going to meet someone in the first place.
This significantly reduces new opportunities for interactions and relationships. 
People who are extroverts or more extroverted date much much more. The have more friends, more aquaintances, and more social networking. This is a fact!


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## Richard (Aug 16, 2011)

username said:


> I looked at your photo, and you're a decent looking guy! I'm not just saying that! INTP's overthink everything. We overthink simple social interactions, how to approach the opposite sex, how to have relationships. As a result, we often see things as way more complicated than they are. We create barriers that don't actually exist, and often function within these self-imposed limitations. You seem like a nice guy. You are obviously very intelligent. You are good looking. The reality is you have many things going for you, many things that make you attractive to the opposite sex. Don't listen to people who say women only respect guys who treat them like crap. That's nonsense! Women who are immature, have low self-esteem, or a history of abuse might find being treated like garbage alluring, but I think being attracted to unhealthy relationships shows that someone isn't ready or capable of having healthy relationships. I don't think you would want to even attract someone like that.
> 
> I used to think for the longest time that I had low self-esteem. Why? I over-analyzed how I felt about myself, am naturally humble and unassertive, am not over-confident (most of the world falsely assumes you cannot have high self-esteem unless you are over-confident), and thought I suffered from low self-esteem. Then I decided to try to assess my self-esteem, took multiple self-esteem tests, and each time scored high, not arrogant, but with very high self-esteem.
> 
> I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't be your own worst enemy. I know it's easier said than done, especially for us. Try to go easier on yourself, try not overthink your interactions with women. They _do_ find you attractive! You just have to believe it!


Thanks for the kind words. I do tend to overcomplicate things but realising that many of my hypotheses may only be valid in the realm of the imaginary, I also try to avoid projecting them onto reality. When interacting with others, I try to void my mind of any preconceptions of which I am not yet certain.
This means I don’t generally have any expectations or angles when I communicate with people in general, and more specifically women, so I’m not sure I’m limiting myself in that manner. If I am, it’s in a very subtle way.

If women have been interested, they do a very good job of hiding it. Nevertheless I’ll try not to preoccupy myself with my short comings and come what may.

@Mad Psychologist

I’m not sure if you had me in mind when you posed your question to username, my nature is such that at first I can come across as shy and timid when dealing with a new environment and people, but when it concerns something I am interested in I wouldn’t consider myself a pushover.
Even if my lack of confidence at a given point leaves me uncertain of what I should do, I won’t let others sway my analysis and decision making process if I care about the result.


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## username (Apr 6, 2010)

Promethea said:


> i have generally avoided those who seem very conventionally masculine, myself. i wouldn't go so far as to say that the guys i have dated were all timid though.. they just lacked the comical masculine traits that culture indoctrinates them with. and thats probably why i have avoided that - its a joke to me. like a cartoon character.
> 
> *another potential reason: in an aggressive male theres often this implication that hes in control. i seek an equal.. not a daddy*.


Right! I seek a partner, not a potential abuser.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

username said:


> Right! I seek a partner, not a potential abuser.


mhm.. theres also that. many times a very aggressive person is at least a verbal abuser.. or psychological abuser. they seek to dominate. they want to dominate at work, at play, and yep, in their relationships. of course there are exceptions, guys who play rough with the other guys, and play hardball at work, then act like real kittens with their women.. but.. sadly i have seen the latter more often. and it happens like, once they cross that line with you, the flood gate opens.


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## Elwin (Feb 17, 2011)

There is a sizable chunk of self-described “nice guys” (not accusing anyone in this thread of it) who are actually just passive-aggressive man-children that harbor a deep resentment and hostility towards women. At least that's the vibe I get when I read their long-winded rants on how they are repeatedly rejected in favor of those “vapid jocks” (translation: anyone who is in better shape and not a doormat). They are the sort of guys who early on have this warped idea that they can weasel their way into a woman's heart (and pants) by groveling and being overly accommodating, hoping one day this will score some sweet pity affection. Wow, awesome mating strategy Adonis lol. They also try to undermine any male that takes interest in their target using subtle, passive or underhanded methods of character assassination. Think of that guy in the movie _There's Something About Mary_ who posed as an English scholar with a disability.

After failing over and over to land a trophy girlfriend with these dubious, female-repellent methods, many end up getting into those pick-up artist/seduction community things where they learn to exploit vulnerable or damaged women using techniques that healthy or high-quality women never fall for in places where they are rarely found. Then they justify this behavior by telling themselves “all women are whores” who only like “assholes” and “jerks”, but these charges are exaggerated or fabricated out of their infantile anger at being rejected for stable, assertive men who can be relied on. But no matter “these bitches are all going to pay.”


-Dr. Elwin von Krauthaus, Professor of Man-child Studies


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## Elwin (Feb 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> comical masculine traits


How dare you suggest that working out six hours a day, injecting testicle shrinking synthetic androgens, greasing up with tanning oil and prancing around on a stage in panties is somehow comical. I'll have you know my muscles are huge and therefore I'm masculine and command respect!










Compensation: The ultimate unintended humor generator.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Elwin said:


> There is a sizable chunk of self-described “nice guys” (not accusing anyone in this thread of it) who are actually just passive-aggressive man-children that harbor a deep resentment and hostility towards women. At least that's the vibe I get when I read their long-winded rants on how they are repeatedly rejected in favor of those “vapid jocks” (translation: anyone who is in better shape and not a doormat). They are the sort of guys who early on have this warped idea that they can weasel their way into a woman's heart (and pants) by groveling and being overly accommodating, hoping one day this will score some sweet pity affection. Wow, awesome mating strategy Adonis lol. They also try to undermine any male that takes interest in their target using subtle, passive or underhanded methods of character assassination. Think of that guy in the movie _There's Something About Mary_ who posed as an English scholar with a disability.
> 
> After failing over and over to land a trophy girlfriend with these dubious, female-repellent methods, many end up getting into those pick-up artist/seduction community things where they learn to exploit vulnerable or damaged women using techniques that healthy or high-quality women never fall for in places where they are rarely found. Then they justify this behavior by telling themselves “all women are whores” who only like “assholes” and “jerks”, but these charges are exaggerated or fabricated out of their infantile anger at being rejected for stable, assertive men who can be relied on. But no matter “these bitches are all going to pay.”
> 
> ...


a -thanks- wasn't enough. had to say, epic.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Jennywocky said:


> How do you think guys feel? That they just want to tell a woman she is beautiful? I'm getting a little confused...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, umm, yes.
Everything else is just smoke and mirrors


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

username said:


> I HATE bad boys/ @$$h0!#$! But I am also emotionally healthy and have high self-esteem, so I think that's why I accept nothing but the best treatment. I don't want a relationship that makes me feel bad. I am content alone and want a relationship that only enhances my contentment. If Reeper is sincerely a nice guy, why are you suggesting he acts like a jerk in order to attract girls? Why aren't you advising him to be himself so he attracts someone who can truly appreciate _him_? Doesn't everyone (who is healthy) really desire a partner who _gets_ and sees them and who LOVES what they see?


Difficult to fully explain my position as I am pc-less and using iPhone so must be brief

Girls are, on the one hand attracted to "light" energy, the nice guy, open doors, pull out your chair, etc

On the other hand, they also yearn for the dark energy-- the guy that will pull their hair and fuck their brains out

There's a reason romance novels are best selling genre, most guys don't get this duality, they think in polar opposites, u must be nice guy or asshole... Not the case

With @REEPER , he seems to have the "light" energy down pat. No use in coaching him there; however, he's missing the lion king, club a girl over the head and show her who's boss "dark" energy; or rather, I sense it's lying dormant and just being repressed, waiting to be unleashed; 

I was the opposite-- too asshole, had to practice my nice guy traits; use tact, pay attention to her feelings, etc


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

error said:


> If that's all they say I'd ask them to be more specific because I could give several answers to that question and chances are none of them are the answer she's looking for. Consider that I never get asked this question so it's a non-issue for me.


Yes but always good to be prepared... 
Or 
Welcome most awkward moment of Ur life
Years later couldn't shake the event from my memory


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

SaiKick said:


> Lol, umm, yes.
> Everything else is just smoke and mirrors


Well... I suppose I gotta give you points for just having the cajones to 'fess up to that. 

Otherwise, though, well, you can stop the merry-go-round so I can get off; being the inanimate object in someone's masturbation ritual is not a role I feel fulfilled playing.

@Elwin: impressive. Hmmm....Wanna take me out? :tongue:


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

username said:


> I looked at your photo, and you're a decent looking guy! I'm not just saying that! INTP's overthink everything. We overthink simple social interactions, how to approach the opposite sex, how to have relationships. As a result, we often see things as way more complicated than they are. We create barriers that don't actually exist, and often function within these self-imposed limitations. You seem like a nice guy. You are obviously very intelligent. You are good looking. The reality is you have many things going for you, many things that make you attractive to the opposite sex. Don't listen to people who say women only respect guys who treat them like crap. That's nonsense! Women who are immature, have low self-esteem, or a history of abuse might find being treated like garbage alluring, but I think being attracted to unhealthy relationships shows that someone isn't ready or capable of having healthy relationships. I don't think you would want to even attract someone like that.
> 
> For the longest time I used to think that I had low self-esteem. Why? I over-analyzed how I felt about myself, am naturally humble and unassertive, am not over-confident (most of the world falsely assumes you cannot have high self-esteem unless you are over-confident), and thought I suffered from low self-esteem. Then I decided to try to assess myself, took multiple self-esteem tests, and each time scored high, not arrogant, but with very high self-esteem.
> 
> I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't be your own worst enemy. I know it's easier said than done, especially for us. Try to go easier on yourself, try not overthink your interactions with women. They _do_ find you attractive! You just have to believe it!


Your linguistic online style is very assertive


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

REEPER said:


> Thanks for the kind words. I do tend to overcomplicate things but realising that many of my hypotheses may only be valid in the realm of the imaginary, I also try to avoid projecting them onto reality. When interacting with others, I try to void my mind of any preconceptions of which I am not yet certain.
> This means I don’t generally have any expectations or angles when I communicate with people in general, and more specifically women, so I’m not sure I’m limiting myself in that manner. If I am, it’s in a very subtle way.
> 
> If women have been interested, they do a very good job of hiding it. Nevertheless I’ll try not to preoccupy myself with my short comings and come what may.
> ...


Well you're honest, humble, sincere, and self aware, which is more than I can say for most guys


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Jennywocky said:


> Well... I suppose I gotta give you points for just having the cajones to 'fess up to that.
> 
> Otherwise, though, well, you can stop the merry-go-round so I can get off; being the inanimate object in someone's masturbation ritual is not a role I feel fulfilled playing.
> 
> @Elwin: impressive. Hmmm....Wanna take me out? :tongue:


Until I find the girl that I want to spend forever with
Everyone else is just a stop gap 
I'm not going to lead a girl on longer than 30 seconds
The real asshole thing, in my opinion, is to date a girl and waste her time if one has no intention of marrying her


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## username (Apr 6, 2010)

SaiKick said:


> Difficult to fully explain my position as I am pc-less and using iPhone so must be brief
> 
> Girls are, on the one hand attracted to "light" energy, the nice guy, open doors, pull out your chair, etc
> 
> ...


Um, no! If a guy even thinks about pulling my hair or treating me like a piece of meat, he's out, and for good!


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

username said:


> Um, no! If a guy even thinks about pulling my hair or treating me like a piece of meat, he's out, and for good!


Well now u got me thinking about it
And since I don't know what you look like
I'll just imagine Megan Fox


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## Mad Psychologist (Sep 17, 2011)

username said:


> Um, no! If a guy even thinks about pulling my hair or treating me like a piece of meat, he's out, and for good!


From expeience.... Just to be accurate... Most women do like to be grabbed by the back of the hair. They like the passion and intensity... I could add more.

A lot of people post things on this thread. Some people make posts that are on or accurate, and some people make posts that seem way off.

I think if your post is going to mean anything you should state some facts. Age, life experiences, books you have read etc.... If you want just generalize this is ok. This is an example: Early twenties, 2-3 relationships, the books or articles I have read.


If I / any one should consider your statements or opinions.... Tell us why they should?

Just to make a statement here: No one should be treated like a piece of meat!


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

mkeath said:


> This entire thread is subjective. Honestly, the example you just gave wasn't an insult in any way. That wasn't a neg. It was a compliment. Of course she loved it.


also-- subjective, yes. But I have more experience than Promethea and her one fat friend encounter. And she's basing her whole opinion on that one asshole experience, not fair to judge my generalizations on her perception of that one event where her fat ass friend got insulted.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> no. it makes her feel insecure like she has no brains; but, my delivery was very jokingly and not mean, so she felt insecure, but smiled bc she knew i was kidding.
> 
> u see how when I make generalizations, people assume the worst; yet, when i use my real life examples, there is a different picture. I don't really have anything to prove.


She probably felt insecure because she was insecure. A hot girl standing around alone with a guarded look to a vulnerable interior? You didn't make her feel insecure. You just gave her positive attention.


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## eunoia (Nov 19, 2010)

@REEPER I think your perspective of truth might be skewed. You state that girls have never showed interest in you, therefore they are probably repulsed and not attracted to you physically. This is not necessarily the case. Also, apparently, you've never been interested in the women you meet; perhaps you are meeting the wrong women and not putting yourself in the right situations. It sounds to me that you don't have the chance to even get to know women. Attraction isn't necessarily going to happen right off the bat. I'm not attracted to people just from meeting them once, or even by just looking at them.

In general, I think you need to not look at things so black and white. Traits can be strengths in some areas, while weaknesses in others. For example, the fact that you got into the program was not just based on luck--it was based on a reason. You weren't an overconfident asshole. That was a strength then. Feel proud. Obviously they thought you were bright enough as well--they would not choose someone who had low self confidence AND didn't know a damn thing.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

manipulative PUA

Negging


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## APennySaved (Jan 20, 2011)

> The key words there were "...men _usually_..."
> 
> Now tell me, out of the total male demographic, what percentage of them are INFJs?
> How about NF males in general?
> ...


AHHHHH-- you got me!:blushed: You make an excellent point. 

Jennywock! You didn't let me get away with that! That's the stuff!! Be my friend? :happy:


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

it's interesting how I don't really give a fuck about your opinions, as I was only trying to help my buddy @REEPER get over his insecurities and low self esteem and bad self image

it's interesting how the two people I was actually taking to, @REEPER & @Mad Psychologist did not misunderstand my intent-- though the sideliners decided to jump in with their 2 cents anyways--which derailed my intent, which was to assist @REEPER , but I respond-in-kind... make an inane trollish statement, and get one in return

so anyways; @REEPER is an above-average looking dude with wit, a seemingly good career ahead of him, and an altruistic character. On top of that, he does have a good sense of humor, though he uses it now in a self-deprecating way. In my own way, this thread has veered a bit off course but still served its purpose, to get him some attention from girls and guys who will give their objective/subjective opinions on his level of attractiveness so that he may actually leave PerC with a healthier self image of himself;

in no way was my intent to belittle girls/women nor to promote PUA. I never promoted playing girls and boning them nor one-night stands.

I merely state objective criteria that works most of the time on most girls.

I don't even know what "negging" really is, nor do I care to find out. 

The only "pick up artist" i've perused is David D'angelo. The rest is just a lifetime of rejection and picking myself up and adjusting my strategy so that I experience less rejection the next time around. 

I know that there's a lot of emotional baggage hanging around people and they like to come online and take it out on someone. I'm not your enemy here, I'm not really an asshole, though I'm good at acting like one.

I get a lot of attention from girls, albeit the wrong type, when I pretend to act like an asshole. These aren't girls I would want long-term with either, but still, the behavior gets positive responses from the majority of women. I always keep it to a playful flirt. Sometimes they give me their number but I don't escalate it. I don't need to screw a bunch of girls to make myself feel better about myself.

Additionally, say, the last 10 numbers I've "pulled," more than half of them already had boyfriends. So, my attraction dwindled and my view of the female race, as a generalization, became depressed. I realized that 50% (and i'm probably underestimating) of girls want to cheat on their boyfriends. The same goes for guys but still, I had an idealized version of females pictured in my head. Girls, guys, we're all alike. Same desires, different genders that's all.

If I've offended you, good. That means you have emotions. Don't take it personally. That's what girls say when they're done with you.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

mkeath said:


> She probably felt insecure because she was insecure. A hot girl standing around alone with a guarded look to a vulnerable interior? You didn't make her feel insecure. You just gave her positive attention.


bro-- all girls are insecure, and the hotter they are, the more insecure they are.
also, the hotter a girl is, the more creative you have to be with your "insults"
they've heard em all
you're really just trying to get her attention at the end of the day, like, "hey, who the F is that guy!? why does he have the balls to talk to me like that!?" -- that is the feeling you are trying to evoke at the end of the day.


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## username (Apr 6, 2010)

Mad Psychologist said:


> From expeience.... Just to be accurate... Most women do like to be grabbed by the back of the hair. They like the passion and intensity... I could add more.
> 
> A lot of people post things on this thread. Some people make posts that are on or accurate, and some people make posts that seem way off.
> 
> ...


Hey, I can only speak for myself, obviously, and I definitely don't like being grabbed by the back of the hair. It feels demeaning.

I am in my early thirties and was in a six-year relationship in my twenties. The relationship was very close, committed, loving. It had a big impact on the way I view intimacy and set the standard very high.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

Honestly, you're being really childish @SaiKick. You claim to know exactly what girls want, and then SEVERAL girls step in and say, "Hey, actually, no, we don't want that, that's really uncool." and you think you know better? Seriously? 

Here's some good, solid advice that will win me over every time: 

Be genuine. Be yourself (as long as you're not some asshole). Talk to me like I am a human being. Say Hi. Smile. It's okay if you're nervous, or shy. I might be too. But I don't want you to behave like someone you're not just to grab my attention. 

Bonus points: Say something clever or witty or intelligent. One time, a guy snagged my attention by making an obscure literary reference that I caught. Another ex used to talk to me about the Soviet Union & KGB when we were still in the initial stages of getting to know each other. Now, as an INTP, that stuff appeals to me, obviously, but I think it's important to note that the content of your character is more important than the bullshit you do to get laid. 

But, like I mentioned earlier... by all means be a complete asshole if you want, but you deserve the kinds of girls you will attract...


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> it's interesting how I don't really give a fuck about your opinions, as I was only trying to help my buddy @REEPER get over his insecurities and low self esteem and bad self image
> 
> it's interesting how the two people I was actually taking to, @REEPER & @Mad Psychologist did not misunderstand my intent-- though the sideliners decided to jump in with their 2 cents anyways--which derailed my intent, which was to assist @REEPER , but I respond-in-kind... make an inane trollish statement, and get one in return
> 
> ...


I don't think you're an asshole, but I think everyone puts too much emphasis on technique rather than simply being confident and presenting themselves with authenticity. I mean really there is nothing wrong with playing off of each others' emotions. That's really what dating is. What I am trying to say, and have been woefully inadequate in saying, is that the bullet points are simply the observed effects of the big picture, and the big picture is be, not act, confident and be, not act, authentic. Girls aren't attracted to small insults, they are not attracted to being made to wait for 3 days before you call, they are not attracted to compliments, or any of the other bullshit people spew. They are attracted to a well-developed, confident, authentic guy, or girl if they are a lesbian/bisexual. 

People are attracted to the people rather than technique or anything else. They might say they are attracted to a person's job, status, etc., but really they are just attracted to the fact that the person seems to be a solid, well-developed individual. Become the solid, well-developed individual and girls will notice. They may not flock, but they will notice.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

Also... @SaiKick, you live in LA or somewhere near there? 

I've lived all over the country, and that place is like a hotbed of insecurity and shallow behavior. NO other place in the country is quite as bad, so I'm not surprised your tactics "work" in that nightmare of a region.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> bro-- all girls are insecure, and the hotter they are, the more insecure they are.


This is so wrong, it's not even funny.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> Honestly, you're being really childish @SaiKick. You claim to know exactly what girls want, and then SEVERAL girls step in and say, "Hey, actually, no, we don't want that, that's really uncool." and you think you know better? Seriously?
> 
> Here's some good, solid advice that will win me over every time:
> 
> ...


yea I realized that, your last point.

you need to understand my style: it was enough to get my intent across to the intended target, @REEPER ; some take me too literally 

now what this thread is lacking is a guy that disagrees with me, who has the ability to pull more ass than I can

I don't respect women's opinions on hooking up with women, because women don't know wtf they want; they think they know, but they have no fucking clue.

If you want to hookup with girls, take advice from a guy with the ability to hookup with girls. period.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> I don't respect women's opinions on hooking up with women, because women don't know wtf they want; they think they know, but they have no fucking clue.
> 
> If you want to hookup with girls, take advice from a guy with the ability to hookup with girls. period.


Hi. I hook up with girls. 

Also, every person I've dated has met my preference. You think I spend all my time talking about how I just want someone who is honest with me and then hook up with liars? God, you *really* think so little of women, like we're all too damn stupid and need to be told what we want.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> If you want to hookup with girls, take advice from a guy with the ability to hookup with girls. period.


Oh so this is advice for something purely carnal? Because I was sharing my opinions for relationships.

EDIT: Just to clarify, all of the advice that SaiKick has given alone has failed me in one way or another. It wasn't until I connected the dots that I realized what it really means to be attractive to the opposite sex. With this new-found knowledge, I have had small successes. Nothing breakthrough, but I have gotten further than where I was with the bad advice. 

SaiKick, you really are coming off as a dick. I get what you're trying to say, but your conclusions and associations about women are so incredibly wrong, skewed, and misogynistic, it makes me genuinely concerned. Women don't know what they want in a man because they have never met the man that they really want, and that ideal man will be elusive to them until they meet him. Guys are the same way. Ever dealt with requirements and specification gathering? The customer has no idea what they want. That's what you're trying to say, but you've turned it into something incredibly condescending to an entire group.

I think you get the big picture, but your details about it are incredibly skewed.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

mkeath said:


> Oh so this is advice for something purely carnal? Because I was sharing my opinions for relationships.


I personally had assumed relationships, and that is why I was disagreeing. Sure, certain tactics can help someone hook up at a bar, but if someone is looking for something healthy or meaningful, then those probably aren't your best bet.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> Also... @_SaiKick_ , you live in LA or somewhere near there?
> 
> I've lived all over the country, and that place is like a hotbed of insecurity and shallow behavior. NO other place in the country is quite as bad, so I'm not surprised your tactics "work" in that nightmare of a region.


I'm orginally from TX and been here in LA for 10 yrs-- i have seen the gamut of nice city to asshole city.



Chrysantheist said:


> Hi. I hook up with girls.
> 
> Also, every person I've dated has met my preference. You think I spend all my time talking about how I just want someone who is honest with me and then hook up with liars? God, you *really* think so little of women, like we're all too damn stupid and need to be told what we want.


most, not all.



mkeath said:


> Oh so this is advice for something purely carnal? Because I was sharing my opinions for relationships.



there's no such thing as a relationship
just attraction, on a day to day basis.

does no one here believe in love at first sight?

I mean, this doesn't happen to pussies. 

You people really are shallow.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> does no one here believe in love at first sight?
> 
> I mean, this doesn't happen to pussies.
> 
> You people really are shallow.


Would you care to elaborate or are you going to leave this as baseless conjecture?


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## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

SaiKick said:


> If you want to hookup with girls, take advice from a guy with the ability to hookup with girls. period.


Uh, dude, who cares about hooking up if nothing meaningful happens before and after?

If I had to pick between a girl of middling physical attractiveness who actually had a brain and nice personally and an absolute sex goddess without a brain cell in her head, I'd pick the first and not the second.

_Most_ INTPs have no interest in someone that can't add something to their lives outside of the sack.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

absentminded said:


> Uh, dude, who cares about hooking up if nothing meaningful happens before and after?
> 
> If I had to pick between a girl of middling physical attractiveness who actually had a brain and nice personally and an absolute sex goddess without a brain cell in her head, I'd pick the first and not the second.
> 
> _Most_ INTPs have no interest in someone that can't add something to their lives outside of the sack.



what is your definition of hooking up?
i don't always have sex, but when I... never mind

so what if hooking up can be softened to include a casual date that doesn't involve physical intimacy? I mean really guys/gals, stop stretching my arguments to polar ends of your imaginations. Words are connotative, I understand-- it might foster better communication if you field clarifying questions to me rather than assume and attack. Just a thought.


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## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

SaiKick said:


> what is your definition of hooking up?
> i don't always have sex, but when I... never mind
> 
> so what if hooking up can be softened to include a casual date that doesn't involve physical intimacy? I mean really guys/gals, stop stretching my arguments to polar ends of your imaginations. Words are connotative, I understand-- it might foster better communication if you field clarifying questions to me rather than assume and attack. Just a thought.


My intention wasn't to attack. The general vibe I've gotten from what I've read seems to indicate that you're for disingenuous behavior towards women to get what you want. This just seems like a very strange stance for an INTP to take.

If I've misunderstood, I wouldn't mind hearing what you're trying to say.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

SaiKick said:


> what is your definition of hooking up?
> i don't always have sex, but when I... never mind
> 
> so what if hooking up can be softened to include a casual date that doesn't involve physical intimacy? I mean really guys/gals, stop stretching my arguments to polar ends of your imaginations. Words are connotative, I understand-- it might foster better communication if you field clarifying questions to me rather than assume and attack. Just a thought.


Why don't you stop for a moment and think about what you want to say, and then carefully construct sentences around that, so that we can respond to you in a fair manner? Nobody is taking your words out of context. You are backtracking and trying to say we're just not reading between the lines.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

absentminded said:


> My intention wasn't to attack. The general vibe I've gotten from what I've read seems to indicate that you're for disingenuous behavior towards women to get what you want. This just seems like a very strange stance for an INTP to take.
> 
> If I've misunderstood, I wouldn't mind hearing what you're trying to say.


you should just rewind the thread-- where you'll find 3-men-in-a-stall having a private discussion and then it was like disco party at the Tony Montana's house lol... ok. At this point I am pretty high.


p.s. I wasn't even referring to you in the last part, the quote might have thrown you off. That was a general comment to the assholes that disagree with me.


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## SaiKick (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> Why don't you stop for a moment and think about what you want to say, and then carefully construct sentences around that, so that we can respond to you in a fair manner? Nobody is taking your words out of context. You are backtracking and trying to say we're just not reading between the lines.


okay-- what I preach to someone else is intended to have an effect on that person, and not necessarily applicable to all parties. Like Ritalin might not be good for someone with out ADHD-- my words may ring offensive on some ears. Well, I don't care. But, for some reason, @REEPER understood me. I say "insult," and all of a sudden people grab swords and start yelling "pick up artist" and "negging" and I'm like "WTF."

People have their own definitions for "insults." Even a backhanded compliment could vary widely. Someone mentioned an event with the fat friend at the club-- that's a straight up insult. I don't preach "actually insulting a fat girl." JEEZUS. When I say "insult" I merely literally mean "tease." But if I choose to use "insult" with a certain crowd as I deem it appropriate... I will. Or if I'm teaching a class to a paying group of people, I might cease to use all four letter words.

Either way-- the theme is, or thesis:

"*build attraction by acting confident*; emulate "alpha male" behavior (which is literally* assertive*, not mean/asshole) but if I want to use the term "asshole" with my audience, I will. It is your perceptive fault for jumping to conclusions. Be *unapologetic in your behavior* and be assertive with your desires. Show this in your* body language*. Did I ever say "be rude"??? I feel like this has been assumed and projected onto me. *So, when I say "asshole" -- your mind goes wild. *But specifically, I have much different behavior than the *douchebag you might be imagining* on Jersey Shore. 

Like seriously, take a fucking chill pill people. I hope you all aren't this serious in real life."


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

Everyone seems to be a bit wound up so I am closing the thread. 

Do not let this spill over into any other threads or I may have to infract people. 

Ciao!


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