# NF Educators??



## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

I read how the majority of educators are SJ's but then the second largest group is NFs. Personally, I would think the NFs would do better in the regard that NFs follow their instinct as to what a kid needs while an SJ is more concerned about a student following the "rules". It honestly kind of angered me the one day when I saw a 1st grade teacher I was observing and I saw her lecture a kid because his locker was not "organized". The little boy was probably a young SP and simply is just not focused on organizing details... and we wonder why students become discouraged during school and don't want to learn - ugh!!


Anyway.... how many NFs out there are educators? If so, what grades do you teach? Elementary, middle, or high??


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't work as a teacher, but I do love teaching. When I was younger, probably around 11 or 12 years old, I would organize the neighbours kids, and play school, complete with schedule, homework and everything... And I still think I might end up as a teacher one day, I sure wouldn't mind... :happy:


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

thegirlcandance, great topic and I agree with you. It's terrible when a teacher says something like that to a student, in fact it doesn't really matter about his locker, it's down to the student how he/she wants to have it. So long as they are learning and being prepared for an incredible life, then what does it matter?

Yes SJs suck the fun out of education and NF educators put it back in, however most NFs are busy wondering what to do with their lives, hence why many aren't in education. It took me twenty one years to even consider education and i'm considering becoming a primary school teacher, which I guess is elementary over there in the states. I met an ENFJ, and she teaches and me and her get along like a house on fire, and she is the first person i've met who teaches in a way that is so NF and so good. From doing work with her, the one thing I found is that teaching is incredibly tiring, after each day, I just wanted to switch off, however for the kids benefit we had to keep going, so if any NF is attempting to go into education. Introvert or not, make sure you have plenty of energy and eat and sleep well. There are many times when a student will come up to you, and you'll be tempted to say 'can't we do this tomorrow, i'm so tired' and then BAM! You'll have to start from scratch and they will need even more time to approach you again.

I'll write some more later.


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## ThinkerNinja (Mar 21, 2010)

Neither is better, it's simply a different style of teaching.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

cardinalfire said:


> Yes SJs suck the fun out of education and NF educators put it back in


I understand you're generalizing here, and I think I see you basic point and why you say this, but at least in the public high school system in the US, I don't think there's *that* much difference in how the two temperaments teach. I teach pubic high school (I teach math), and I know two English teachers who are both NF's...one is an INFP, the other is an ENFJ. Constantly, and I mean constantly, the INFP teacher, who I'm very close friends with, agrees with me about just about everything in the education system and teaching. We face pretty much the same problems with students, we deal with pretty much the same thing, and we have pretty much the same opinions about education.

Even as an INFP, he understands the need for organization and structure to be a teacher...as creative and "fun" as your lessons can be, you still need rules and order as well. And not all SJ's are boring and uptight as teachers either. 


So I see what you're saying, and there's probably some general truth to it. But really, I think there's a lot that teachers have in common that type doesn't distinguish between, and people of all 16 types can be good or bad teachers.






cardinalfire said:


> however most NFs are busy wondering what to do with their lives, hence why many aren't in education. It took me twenty one years to even consider education and i'm considering becoming a primary school teacher, which I guess is elementary over there in the states. I met an ENFJ, and she teaches and me and her get along like a house on fire, and she is the first person i've met who teaches in a way that is so NF and so good. From doing work with her, the one thing I found is that teaching is incredibly tiring, after each day, I just wanted to switch off, however for the kids benefit we had to keep going, so if any NF is attempting to go into education. Introvert or not, make sure you have plenty of energy and eat and sleep well. There are many times when a student will come up to you, and you'll be tempted to say 'can't we do this tomorrow, i'm so tired' and then BAM! You'll have to start from scratch and they will need even more time to approach you again.



I think the bigger problem is that the US *system* is set up in a very SJ manner. So it's harder to actually teach because of all of the "standards" and the idea that everyone has to be the same. SJ's can fit into that kind of system more easily as teachers, but that doesn't mean that we're not frustrated to no end by the system's set up, which is ridiculous and stupid in so many ways.


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

teddy564339 said:


> I understand you're generalizing here, and I think I see you basic point and why you say this, but at least in the public high school system in the US, I don't think there's *that* much difference in how the two temperaments teach. I teach pubic high school (I teach math), and I know two English teachers who are both NF's...one is an INFP, the other is an ENFJ. Constantly, and I mean constantly, the INFP teacher, who I'm very close friends with, agrees with me about just about everything in the education system and teaching. We face pretty much the same problems with students, we deal with pretty much the same thing, and we have pretty much the same opinions about education.
> 
> Even as an INFP, he understands the need for organization and structure to be a teacher...as creative and "fun" as your lessons can be, you still need rules and order as well. And not all SJ's are boring and uptight as teachers either.
> 
> ...


The system is certainly frustrating. The way its set up causes kids to focus mostly on grades and not learning...... while also limiting teachers to focus on standards and state test scores rather than learning. Yes, we need to assess but are standardized exams the best method to determine if they are met? I keep trying to think of a better way to set up the system but I'm not quite sure. I thought I heard of some state changing the grading system somehow when I was taking my education classes.

Procedures and rules are necessary in order to minimize student confusion and so students know what they are being disciplined for. You can't just get mad for a kid doing something in class if you did not tell them what to do... then its your fault. Same goes with parenting (which most people don't learn or realize). For me, this is most difficult with high school students because they don't want to listen to anybody at that age and make their own decisions. 
So I certainly do not mean in a concrete manner "SJs are bad teachers and NFs are good" but that there are often still some different views in teaching methods.... but even that is variable on the individual.



To go back and answer my own question of "What area of school do you like the most?" I know none is better, but what I am looking for is if certain MBTI types like certain levels more than others. I'm teaching 4 HS classes and 2 8th grade classes during student teaching. My favorite group? 8th grade -- I intuitively feel like you can make the biggest difference in their lives at that age... and they have the quirkiest humor!!

I read somewhere that if your trying to decide what level to teach, ask what you would rather deal with in the bathroom?
- If you want to find students needing help getting soap and needing to tell them how much paper towel to take --- teach elementary
- If you want to find students doing quirky/weird things -- teach middle school
- If you want to catch students smoking in the bathroom -- teach high school


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## shoeless (Nov 11, 2009)

best teacher i ever had in my life was a super INFJ. she was my junior year AP english teacher, and i've never learned as much from any other class as i did from her.

it did sometimes get frustrating trying to understand her worldview and adhere to her ultra-high standards, but it was still worth it. if there's one thing i can say about that woman, it's that she actually gave a damn about her profession. she certainly was not lazy, which i find is the bane of a lot of teachers these days.

her passion for and knowledge of the subject made the class entertaining. she's actually a lot of what has been inspiring me lately to want to become an english teacher, and i can only hope i'd do half as good a job as her.


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

shoeless said:


> best teacher i ever had in my life was a super INFJ. she was my junior year AP english teacher, and i've never learned as much from any other class as i did from her.
> 
> it did sometimes get frustrating trying to understand her worldview and adhere to her ultra-high standards, but it was still worth it. if there's one thing i can say about that woman, it's that she actually gave a damn about her profession. she certainly was not lazy, which i find is the bane of a lot of teachers these days.
> 
> her passion for and knowledge of the subject made the class entertaining. she's actually a lot of what has been inspiring me lately to want to become an english teacher, and i can only hope i'd do half as good a job as her.


Just out of curiosity for my own personal growth and improvement (because, ya know, that's the INFJ thing to do)....

What type of methods did she use? What did you do every day in her class? Did she mix up instruction? How?


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## Linus (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks for making this thread. I'm interested in becoming a teacher but I feel like I might not like the school environment.. I usually envision myself teaching needlework or something at a convent or as a private tutor/therapist type thing.

A lot of my motivation has also been due to what I've experienced at different colleges I've been to. Probably safe to assume that most of my teachers never studied psychology or something along that line, the way they deal with their students. I think it really takes someone who can see between the lines. There was a lot of drama at my schools because the teachers just go by what they see and hear but they never see the *point* or message behind things said and done and the importance of things not said. They were always easily manipulated, It was such a mess.

And then there was that they'd accept anyone who applied to the program. They do it year after year and I've asked alumni and they usually mention something about a student who shouldn't have been there. I don't know if there was maybe a quota the teachers had to fill. There were so many problems


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## KaylRyck (Feb 2, 2010)

ENFPs...school woulda been just fun.


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

thegirlcandance said:


> To go back and answer my own question of "What area of school do you like the most?" I know none is better, but what I am looking for is if certain MBTI types like certain levels more than others. I'm teaching 4 HS classes and 2 8th grade classes during student teaching. My favorite group? 8th grade -- I intuitively feel like you can make the biggest difference in their lives at that age... and they have the quirkiest humor!!
> 
> I read somewhere that if your trying to decide what level to teach, ask what you would rather deal with in the bathroom?
> - If you want to find students needing help getting soap and needing to tell them how much paper towel to take --- teach elementary
> ...


What age are they during eighth grade? Here in the UK we just have primary and secondary school, I don't fully understand this middle school system you dicuss here.


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## viva (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm seriously considering applying for Teach For America next year. I'd love to teach art or English. I could realistically see myself going back to school after graduation and getting my teaching certification, and if not, getting my masters and eventually getting a job as an art professor, even if it's just part-time. I love teaching and I've held tutoring jobs in the past. When I came to school I didn't think it's what I wanted to do with the rest of my life, but I've been rethinking it recently.



cardinalfire said:


> What age are they during eighth grade? Here in the UK we just have primary and secondary school, I don't fully understand this middle school system you dicuss here.


In the US, the system goes like this (generally):
1st grade through 4th grade (sometimes 5th): Elementary school
(sometimes 5th) 6th grade through 8th grade: Middle school (sometimes called Junior High)
9th grade through 12th grade: High school


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## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

teddy564339 said:


> I understand you're generalizing here, and I think I see you basic point and why you say this, but at least in the public high school system in the US, I don't think there's *that* much difference in how the two temperaments teach. I teach pubic high school (I teach math), and I know two English teachers who are both NF's...one is an INFP, the other is an ENFJ. Constantly, and I mean constantly, the INFP teacher, who I'm very close friends with, agrees with me about just about everything in the education system and teaching. We face pretty much the same problems with students, we deal with pretty much the same thing, and we have pretty much the same opinions about education.
> 
> Even as an INFP, he understands the need for organization and structure to be a teacher...as creative and "fun" as your lessons can be, you still need rules and order as well. And not all SJ's are boring and uptight as teachers either.
> 
> ...


Nice post, I just stumbled upon this animated speech and I highly recommend watching it.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

That's an awesome clip. I've heard him speak before but I hadn't heard that particular bit before.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

That video's great stuff! Thanks babblingbrook!

I wish more people would see these thing. Myself I was schooled by the Montessori method, and would absolutely say that I've benefited greatly from that, having been spared from many of the worst part of "normal" education.

Btw, Montessori and Jung apparently have some common denominators, as I've understood it, mainly seeing the child as having a personality and innate ideas and concept already from birth, as opposed to being a tabula rasa to only be stuffed with input in rearing and education.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

penchant said:


> That video's great stuff! Thanks babblingbrook!
> 
> I wish more people would see these thing. Myself I was schooled by the Montessori method, and would absolutely say that I've benefited greatly from that, having been spared from many of the worst part of "normal" education.
> 
> Btw, Montessori and Jung apparently have some common denominators, as I've understood it, mainly seeing the child as having a personality and innate ideas and concept already from birth, as opposed to being a tabula rasa to only be stuffed with input in rearing and education.


Imagine what a child could do if he/she were unfolded and not molded! Imagine!


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## Angel1412kaitou (Mar 30, 2010)

I typed my Psych teacher as an ENFJ. She is great at teaching, although I find it odd how she can be a bit disorganized, yet still so...J. Perhaps that's what teaching all day does to you.


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## KateAusten (Feb 6, 2010)

I worked as a teacher at a school for autistic children for a few months. I was good at building a rapport with the children initially, but the methodology this school used was very intense and detail-oriented, if I was distracted for two seconds it would be a huge deal, so I wasn't very good at that particular job. It was a really intense and constant form of ABA, and I recognize that it's the most effective treatment for autism currently, but it's just not something I can do. I think an NFJ would be better at it. 

I'm about to begin a job teaching English (as a foreign language) to elementary children. I'm a bit intimidated, my school is really disorganized which I'm sure will suit me later but right now I have no idea how much English these kids understand or what supplies are available to me in teaching. I'm trying to make first-day lesson plans but can't come up with anything that makes me feel more confident than walking in and winging it. I'll be honest, mostly I'm here because it's a job with low hours and tons of vacation and I get to live on a French-governed tropical island, but I hope I manage to teach these kids really well while I'm here. I also want to set up some private conversation lessons on the side for adults, I took Spanish conversation classes and it was always a really great environment with people talking about their lives and culture.


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## LeafStew (Oct 17, 2009)

One of my teacher is INFJ I think. I like how he teaches because he force us to make mistakes, push our reasoning further than what is actually asked in the question while working in groups so we can learn better. He finds all kinds of comparison, re-conceptualize and simplify what we are learning to make it more accessible to everyone in the class. He knows exactly on which part of the subject students have an harder time with and emphasize on it. 

He's definitely one of the best teacher I had so far.


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

This is such a good thread, and Sir Ken Robinson is one of my heroes, I love want that guy has to say and i've watched a number of videos with him giving speeches and each one has been great and funny.


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

babblingbrook said:


> Nice post, I just stumbled upon this animated speech and I highly recommend watching it.
> 
> YouTube - RSA Animate - Changing Education Paradigms


Based on my experience in the past few weeks of teaching there's just a few points I want to make in reflection....
- I will say that as a teacher, grades are good tactic to show students what the consequences are for not doing what they are expected to. Its a follow through of classroom management. As a teacher, you have to create the environment for them to learn... meaning: no disruptions, consistent procedures to minimize confusion, repetition of directions for the special education students, etc. Personally, I have only written 2 detentions (which is not much for most student teachers) reason being because I intuitively know that it does no good -- it just makes the student think I hate them. So as much as possible, I will try to pull them out and talk to them individually as to my reasoning and how I want them to succeed. Back to the main point... the grades are a way to say "you screwed off in my class, disrupted peers, and failed to do assignments or activities so therefore you are failing". When they see they are failing, this can suddenly not become a "joke" to them and they may hopefully turn around by realizing the consequences. Which, well... truly, is a reflection of the real world. I mean - if you don't pay your taxes then you will have the IRS after you. You have to make them learn consequences.
- The one big issue is that the state wants documentation, documentation, documentation.... for liability, statistics, etc. etc. This whole "no child left behind" deal in the US hasn't helped. Teachers are stuck focusing more on these things than teaching.
- Funding is HUGE. I am often frustrated because I am lacking materials and $$ to do activities and more "fun stuff" with the kids. So far, I've paid out of pocket on most of the activity materials I've done... which, who really wants to do that for your job? Then the next thing is just having the administration to back you. Ok, want to learn about plants?! Great!! Lets take the kids to a big wholesale greenhouse.... but wait, principal doesn't let me. Then why won't the principal let me? Because the state didn't give us enough funding because the standardized state test scores did not exceed standards.



So... truly, to fix anything you have to fix the entire system -- you can't just put the pressure on the teacher because there's always one higher up in the food chain.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

thegirlcandance said:


> Based on my experience in the past few weeks of teaching there's just a few points I want to make in reflection....
> - I will say that as a teacher, grades are good tactic to show students what the consequences are for not doing what they are expected to. Its a follow through of classroom management. As a teacher, you have to create the environment for them to learn... meaning: no disruptions, consistent procedures to minimize confusion, repetition of directions for the special education students, etc. Personally, I have only written 2 detentions (which is not much for most student teachers) reason being because I intuitively know that it does no good -- it just makes the student think I hate them. So as much as possible, I will try to pull them out and talk to them individually as to my reasoning and how I want them to succeed. Back to the main point... the grades are a way to say "you screwed off in my class, disrupted peers, and failed to do assignments or activities so therefore you are failing". When they see they are failing, this can suddenly not become a "joke" to them and they may hopefully turn around by realizing the consequences. Which, well... truly, is a reflection of the real world. I mean - if you don't pay your taxes then you will have the IRS after you. You have to make them learn consequences.


I'm kind of mixed on this....in some ways I 100% agree, and in some ways I disagree.

The problem is that our whole society is based on grades and rewards. People get grades in high school so they can go to college, they go to college to get a degree, they get a degree to get a job, and they get a job so they can earn a paycheck. Granted, some people find things they're passionate about, but it would be nice if students could all learn the essentials but then only take classes they're interested in, and it would be nice if everyone could find a job that they like and enjoy. Of course, every job will have its unpleasant and difficult parts, but it would be great if the satisfaction people got out of it would be what pushes them and motivates them to work through the tough parts. Ideally, this would be the way education is as well.

Look at me, I sound like an N talking about all of these wonderful things that will never happen. :tongue:

That's not to say that grades aren't useful or important, just like paychecks. But ideally, that shouldn't be the main or only motivation.


The problem now is that we test kids to death so much, and put so much pressure on them, that all they care about is the grade itself, not the material they're learning or why they're learning it. And that's because we're standardizing everyone and making them all take the exact same things. 

And then of course, you run into the kids who don't care if they fail. Or, they care if they fail, but they don't care enough to actually do the necessary work to keep it from happening. When you run into those cases, the grade isn't much of a motivator.

Admittedly, this is part of the problem of most of my state being on the block schedule. They know that if they fail a class in the fall, they can just retake it in the spring. Besides, they have time to take 32 classes and only need 24 to graduate, so they can fail a lot without the consequence of not graduating on time.






thegirlcandance said:


> So... truly, to fix anything you have to fix the entire system -- you can't just put the pressure on the teacher because there's always one higher up in the food chain.


Exactly. Sometimes I'm amazed that with the way our system is set up that we get even half of what we get out of it.


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

teddy564339 said:


> I'm kind of mixed on this....in some ways I 100% agree, and in some ways I disagree.
> 
> The problem is that our whole society is based on grades and rewards. People get grades in high school so they can go to college, they go to college to get a degree, they get a degree to get a job, and they get a job so they can earn a paycheck. Granted, some people find things they're passionate about, but it would be nice if students could all learn the essentials but then only take classes they're interested in, and it would be nice if everyone could find a job that they like and enjoy. Of course, every job will have its unpleasant and difficult parts, but it would be great if the satisfaction people got out of it would be what pushes them and motivates them to work through the tough parts. Ideally, this would be the way education is as well.
> 
> ...


I certainly agree with that comment of a block schedule. The high school I'm currently at had a block schedule last year but the school has now switched back to a normal schedule due to low standardized test scores. Now the problem this year is that the kids are rebelling against it and have more late grades than usual because they're like "dang, I now have to do homework every day rather than every other day". Looking at it if I was in the kids shoes, I totally would understand because a block schedule then makes the work more like college... which I think this would be good for juniors and seniors it does not seem to work with the younger kids, because that every day contact is vital.

Student motivation should be on learning rather than grades, and its really a challenge on my part to figure out a way to change their thinking on that. I may give kids an activity that they have to problem solve to figure out on their own and I know in my head that they will learn more from applying it this way than me just giving them the information. Because it is only an activity to help them learn, I feel it is not fair for me to give a grade (and hopefully shift their thinking of school), however, the result is having 40 kids in an uproar saying "Why don't I get points for this?!". Then I intuitively knew that if I did not give them anything then they would simply not do any work when I give them something like that the next time. So needless to say, I just went in the gradebook and ended up giving everyone 5 points.

I'm not exactly sure how you could dissipate the whole grade motivation because it does more hurt than good. From what I learned in education psychology you are either:
1. A mastery learner - so either A. Your focus is not on your grade but rather on learning and therefore you do very well in your grades and in class or B. You have had success at getting A's easily in class in the past so therefore you have the motivation of "I'm smart enough to get an A on all this".
2. Failure avoidance - most people are in this category. The motivation is simply just to do enough work to avoid failure.
3. Learned failure - these kids have just learned that they are failures and therefore have no motivation or hope that they can ever do well.


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree with this changing the whole system thing, that's correct. The education system does need a complete overhaul, that's what people like Ken Robinson are saying.

Secondly, what is this 'block schedule' and what does that mean for learning?

and girlcandance, are you saying that children moan or complain when they don't get a grade that they want? because they didn't do the work? I would give them the grade that I feel they earnt and if they didn't get what they expect then tough. It seems that what you are saying is when this happens they then lose motivation altogether to even bother next time because they didn't get a good grade this time. In which case it's their problem, one that we can help them with, however it's still THEIR problem. 

Perhaps the key is to show them that a grade is not an indicator of how capable they are at learning the material, just a reflection of the effort they have put in to learn and understand the material. 

Lastly, when you mention funding, are you not able to bring the plants to the classroom? Rather than getting funding for a trip? At least that's what I would do, include elements of whiteboard lectures, visual diagrams, hands on learning and if possible something auditorary for them to take home. Perhaps put the essentials into an mp3 if the students are teenage.


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

cardinalfire said:


> I agree with this changing the whole system thing, that's correct. The education system does need a complete overhaul, that's what people like Ken Robinson are saying.
> 
> Secondly, what is this 'block schedule' and what does that mean for learning?
> 
> ...


Normal schedule = approximately 50 minute class periods. Block schedule = approximately 100 minute class periods.


I'm not saying that the kids moan and complain when they don't get the grade that they want. What I say is that the moan and complain about doing something in order to invest time into their education. Most of the kids in my classes, with the exception of a few (of that I've realized since I looked over all of their standardized testing and GPAs), are middle to lower end of their class ranking. Most of these kids are learned to be failures and basically have no problem getting an F and earning that F. Honestly, in my case, if I feel like I make it too easy for them to that they can get a good grade then I'm just asking less of them and the motivation is even less than it would be if I forced them to do some work. There are seriously some kids I could practically give them the answers and they would still fail it because they are "learned failures".

Finding funding for plants, testing, or any of that type of funding can be difficult as well if you suddenly find yourself in a classroom that did not have it before you got there. School always gives you a budget that you are limited to and finding materials to cover all areas throughout the school year on that budget is difficult, so I've ended up using more classroom-limited involvement that I've wanted, though I've tried to give them more problem solving activities to get them working and thinking rather than a lecture... which I don't even like doing but I feel like with some kids its still necessary to have that concrete part of it or else they'll be lost.


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## Raichan (Jul 15, 2010)

thegirlcandance said:


> I read how the majority of educators are SJ's but then the second largest group is NFs. Personally, I would think the NFs would do better in the regard that NFs follow their instinct as to what a kid needs while an SJ is more concerned about a student following the "rules". It honestly kind of angered me the one day when I saw a 1st grade teacher I was observing and I saw her lecture a kid because his locker was not "organized". The little boy was probably a young SP and simply is just not focused on organizing details... and we wonder why students become discouraged during school and don't want to learn - ugh!!
> 
> 
> Anyway.... how many NFs out there are educators? If so, what grades do you teach? Elementary, middle, or high??


I do not think it is wise to generalize whether a person can be a better educator or not solely based on type.

An SJ, just like any other type, has to learn how to be more flexible. MBTI is about preferences, not enough to cover abilities as a whole. You must understand that people are different, and an educator has his/her own set of experiences to bring to the institution.

An NF who follows his/her intuition can get carried away with being too spontaneous with new ideas and paying less attention to details just as much as an SJ can get carried away with placing too much emphasis on order. It is a matter of balance, restraint and growth, okay?


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## Raichan (Jul 15, 2010)

Im going to start a thread about this..... :dry:


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

thegirlcandance said:


> Normal schedule = approximately 50 minute class periods. Block schedule = approximately 100 minute class periods.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that the kids moan and complain when they don't get the grade that they want. What I say is that the moan and complain about doing something in order to invest time into their education. Most of the kids in my classes, with the exception of a few (of that I've realized since I looked over all of their standardized testing and GPAs), are middle to lower end of their class ranking. Most of these kids are learned to be failures and basically have no problem getting an F and earning that F. Honestly, in my case, if I feel like I make it too easy for them to that they can get a good grade then I'm just asking less of them and the motivation is even less than it would be if I forced them to do some work. There are seriously some kids I could practically give them the answers and they would still fail it because they are "learned failures".
> ...


Ok.

What do you think is the reason for this 'learned failure'? It sounds like they are just giving up. Maybe they don't see how it could help to improve their lives or do they not feel worthy? It's sad to think about.

Would education be improved if we had say a teacher for every student? This is just an idealistic, hypothetical idea, not that I am saying this is the way to go, just as an idea to think about. Let's say we had a class of thirty two and we had enough teachers to put one to a student each, or say we taught them individually rather than in groups, and let them go off in groups in their own time, or allow some interaction time with groups, would this help? Just imagine we live in a world where something like this was possible, do you think it would have any effect? Or would you still prefer the one teacher system?

Lastly, if you could rebuild the education system as a whole, how would you re build it to make it easier for teachers and more beneficial for students?


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

cardinalfire said:


> Ok.
> 
> What do you think is the reason for this 'learned failure'? It sounds like they are just giving up. Maybe they don't see how it could help to improve their lives or do they not feel worthy? It's sad to think about.
> 
> ...


The trouble with having a teacher for every student, especially in secondary, is that the kids never learn a sense of independence. In the real world, they are not going to have someone there to watch them to make sure their stuff is done. Truly, I don't think one really learns until they can realize what the consequences are for their actions. Middle school, from a developmental standpoint, is too young to give them a lot of independence so I think the system as it is right now is fine. High school on the other hand is a struggle, and one of the only things I can think of that would possibly cause some motivation is if the system came up and said, "Ok, we are going to make high school optional -- YOU have the CHOICE to come here to get an education, however, we are not going to give you the option to take the GED. Therefore, you either don't get a HS diploma and can't find a job or you go to HS and want to learn something."
In all reality, the world isn't all peaches and cream and a person is never going to always get what they want. Our recent society just seems spoiled to some extent and so many of these high school kids think they already know everything and don't need school....... until they come to the realization that "hey, I need this to be a good citizen." I can tell them that all they want, but they're not going to learn unless they have the experience of it.

Its like learning to drive a car...... you might learn some when your in drivers ed and are required to have someone ride with you, but you don't REALLY truly learn until you are on your own and have only yourself to rely on.


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

I'll add a little quote I heard in a video today that was worded perfectly "Education is a component of society, so don't look to fix education, instead, look to fix society."


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

thegirlcandance said:


> I'll add a little quote I heard in a video today that was worded perfectly "Education is a component of society, so don't look to fix education, instead, look to fix society."


That's a silly quote because the term 'society' encompasses so much by the people that use it in that way. It's not like having an etch and sketch and just wipe 'society' and start again, we need to focus on specific parts, like what is it about society that people don't like? and then make plans to fix it.

Of course most of societies problems arise from people not acting like role models for their children or making correct choices. Let's face it, every time someone mentions that society needs fixing, it's either the political pendulum has swung to much in the direction they aren't happy with, or so called 'kids aren't behaving right', so there isn't a lot a person can do to fix society. The best way to fix societie's ills is by everyone looking in the mirror and starting with themselves, because an 'outside in' approach is never going to work. It's not society that needs changing, it's people attitudes and views/beliefs/opinions of themselves, and education is where we can step in and say 'look, you don't have to act that way, you do have a choice'.


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## Anahata (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank you for starting this thread. It was wonderful to read the various perspectives on here, and then take the opportunity to meditate on my own experiences as an educator.

For the NF's looking to enter education (particularly I's) be very very careful of your health! Education and the school day in general have a physicality to them that many other professions lack. I've been teaching now for five years, and I can unequivocally say that nothing exhausts me on so many levels (spiritually, emotionally, AND physically) like teaching. Part of this would be because of something in the eastern philosophies of karma and chi. Children float through their days with a lot of karma and they don't control it so you get bombarded with it! They hug you, the run into you, they invade your space, they NEED you, and they make demands on you that "adults" normally won't make. These demands can take the form of testing your patience to providing school supplies for them.

I teach choir and general music. My 8th grade choir has a SIGNIFICANT number of "Performer" personalities in it. Beware this too! If you are an introverted J personality you are going to have years when a number of extroverted perceivers will wind up in your class room... And you're going to feel like you've taken essence of insanity with your coffee! 

But... You should do it if you have a passion for giving (because that is ALL that education is from the time the bell rings to the time the day ends, you are a giver 100% of the time you are interacting with students!) You also need to be able to shunt the things the kids do and say to you to the "It's not personal" place to deal with them. There are several teachers in our building who regularly get into screaming matches/power struggles with the kids and it's really an ugly situation then for both people. In order to teach "kids" you can't have a messed up relationship with them, which means you have to be willing to always be the adult and lay down your pride long enough to see that their behaviors are almost NEVER personal. Even if they were directed personally at you, why on earth would a 16-year-old's opinion carry any weight with you? So, yeah, I have a hard time with the adults who can't "be the bigger person" and drop an argument once it has been started.

Finally, be prepared to deal with rampant unprofessional behaviors from your colleagues. They are the bane of my existence in my profession. They snipe, swear, pull pranks on, and generally harass each other all day long. It's so true what so many people observe:

"The teachers are worse than the students!"

The insights on the American Education System were only too true. Props y'all!


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## thegirlcandance (Jul 29, 2009)

Anahata said:


> Thank you for starting this thread. It was wonderful to read the various perspectives on here, and then take the opportunity to meditate on my own experiences as an educator.
> 
> For the NF's looking to enter education (particularly I's) be very very careful of your health! Education and the school day in general have a physicality to them that many other professions lack. I've been teaching now for five years, and I can unequivocally say that nothing exhausts me on so many levels (spiritually, emotionally, AND physically) like teaching. Part of this would be because of something in the eastern philosophies of karma and chi. Children float through their days with a lot of karma and they don't control it so you get bombarded with it! They hug you, the run into you, they invade your space, they NEED you, and they make demands on you that "adults" normally won't make. These demands can take the form of testing your patience to providing school supplies for them.
> 
> ...


Oh goodness... fellow colleagues. I've shaken my head at some and I was just student teaching.

During my last week I had a substitute for an aid get into a heated discussion with some senior guys about marijuana. This lady was old enough to be my mother. As a result, the kid (who has anger management issues to begin with) got really defensive and then the aid got mad and both went to the office so this whole feud started. I ended up having to write up a letter to the principal about the observations that I saw of the conversation. Its sad to think that not only do I need to watch kids, but I have to babysit colleagues that are old enough to be my parents.

Based on my student teaching experience, I think it is important to associate with colleagues to know what is going on with kids in other classes. However, I really have to keep my distance at the same time because several are worse than the kids in terms of gossip and how they act. In one sense, I like the teachers meetings to have that sense of togetherness (must be my Fe) but at the same time I can end up feeling like I'm being flooded by poison.

At least I can say that I did get frustrated many times, but I NEVER actually blew up on a class. I just don't see the point in doing so because it only makes the rest of the day bad.
Your attitude makes SUCH a huge impact. If I had one class that was bad and I let get to me, then the rest of the day was bad because I was in a bad mood and the kids pick up on that.

I must say that I've never done another job that causes such extreme emotional highs and lows.... and I'm not even one that gets easily stressed. There was one day where I caught myself having an emotional breakdown at the end of the day due to management issues -- only then to later find myself crying tears of joy when I discovered that an eighth grader had been excitedly telling stories to their family about some material I taught.

As my 8th grade English teacher told me -- "In order to be respected, you must give respect". That is SO true -- though it seems several teachers don't realize that.


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## KateAusten (Feb 6, 2010)

Anahata said:


> Thank you for starting this thread. It was wonderful to read the various perspectives on here, and then take the opportunity to meditate on my own experiences as an educator.
> 
> For the NF's looking to enter education (particularly I's) be very very careful of your health! Education and the school day in general have a physicality to them that many other professions lack. I've been teaching now for five years, and I can unequivocally say that nothing exhausts me on so many levels (spiritually, emotionally, AND physically) like teaching. Part of this would be because of something in the eastern philosophies of karma and chi. Children float through their days with a lot of karma and they don't control it so you get bombarded with it! They hug you, the run into you, they invade your space, they NEED you, and they make demands on you that "adults" normally won't make. These demands can take the form of testing your patience to providing school supplies for them.
> 
> ...


All true! I had no idea how exhausting teaching is before I got into it. Frankly I don't think it's a great fit for me -- I need time to breathe during the day and the freedom to work according to my own energy levels. I don't see how American teachers do it with just a half hour lunch during the school day and usually having to eat in the school with the students!

I also hate being stuck doing things like power plays. I am not a power trip or a politics person at all, but I have to make arbitrary displays of power in my classroom just to keep control. If I tell a problem student to sit in a specific chair, and he sits in the one next to it, then it shouldn't be a big deal, but I have too make him do exactly what I say just to show my dominance. I'm more of a "Let's work together" kind of person and it works great in small groups of cooperative students and in my classes with younger kids, but with older kids (the oldest I teach are 10-11) and problem students in the class, it just doesn't work.

I also don't have the self sacrificing sort of personality that seems to be expected in education and social services. Employers can treat employees unprofessionally in this field, because unlike most jobs, if the employee doesn't keep cooperating it is innocent students that get fucked over. I can't deal with that non-resentfully. It's not right. I would never pay for my own classroom supplies because the school refuses to buy them or anything. When working at a special needs school, I hated that I was expected to stand ground while getting assaulted by students. At some point teachers are people too. 

I don't want to scare anyone away from the field, it's just that the more time I spend teaching, the more I feel like this is a horrible fit for me. Sometimes I don't know how I'm going to last another 7 months in this job, and it's only 12 classroom hours a week (but more hours dealing with my one atrocious colleague -- the others are nice).


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

KateAusten said:


> All true! I had no idea how exhausting teaching is before I got into it. Frankly I don't think it's a great fit for me -- I need time to breathe during the day and the freedom to work according to my own energy levels. I don't see how American teachers do it with just a half hour lunch during the school day and usually having to eat in the school with the students!
> 
> I also hate being stuck doing things like power plays. I am not a power trip or a politics person at all, but I have to make arbitrary displays of power in my classroom just to keep control. If I tell a problem student to sit in a specific chair, and he sits in the one next to it, then it shouldn't be a big deal, but I have too make him do exactly what I say just to show my dominance. I'm more of a "Let's work together" kind of person and it works great in small groups of cooperative students and in my classes with younger kids, but with older kids (the oldest I teach are 10-11) and problem students in the class, it just doesn't work.
> 
> ...


I think it goes to show how challenging teaching can be for people of any type. I'm ISFJ, and I know teachers that have tested INFP, ENFJ and INTJ. I know a number that I'm willing to be are other SJ's, most likely ISTJ's and ESTJ's. It's a tough job for anyone, I think.


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## yellowbritt (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm in my first year of teaching college freshmen. It's challenging in many ways, but in some ways it's a really great fit. I find that teaching requires creativity, which means it doesn't get boring and isn't repetitive. Plus, it allows me to use my intuition to "read" both the class and individual students to gauge progress. Maybe this sounds weird, but it feels like the outlet I've been looking for, only I didn't know I was looking for it.


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## Seeker (Aug 12, 2010)

I teach higher ed. It can be demanding. But it's actually been great because I have learned to set boundaries with my students for their welfare and mine. I love it and wouldn't want to do anything else---except teach fitness which I do on the side.


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