# Where Do We Make The Divide Between Introversion and Aspergers



## CorgiGirl (Jan 3, 2011)

Some kids diagnosed with Aspergers bother me because it seems like their only problem is introvertedness. But that doesn't mean that Aspergers is non-existant, my sister has Aspergers and it's pretty obvious. So where's the divide?

Also, this doesn't necessarily have to be just an introvert/extrovert thing. I think that there's other letters that accompany the I that might make people think someone has Aspergers.

We can make this bigger to any kind of functioning autism.

What do you think?


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

From knowing 3 people with mild to moderate Aspergers, one a mild extrovert, a guess would be extreme S with very little N. All 3 didn't seem to understand that people could have different thoughts, beliefs, wants, etc., than what they had themselves; in other words, they seemed to lack imagination in that sense. Here's something about Theory of Mind:

Theory of mind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another theory I've read, at least with regard to autism, is that some people are overwhelmed by the sensing world and so withdraw into themselves and engage in various activities in an effort to solve the overwhelm problem.


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## Hastings (Jan 8, 2011)

If kids are diagnosed as Aspergers simply because of strong introversion, then they are misdiagnosed.


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## StrixAluco (Apr 8, 2011)

I don't think introversion look similar to Asperger. It may look like some extreme versions of some types but Introversion only cannot be/shouldn't be enough to diagnose Autism, it's clearly more than that even in the milder forms (just like mildly dyslexic people can sometimes spell and read very well once they've learned and not everyone who has poor spelling will have dyslexia, no matter what some people think, part of it is due to education).


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## B-Con (Dec 24, 2010)

It's funny, but I've seen more than one discussion in which INTPs are likened to being the "most Asperger like" or "most likely to have Aspergers". Not scientific, but the similarities between the two do exist.

Frankly, I think that Aspergers looks like SiTi or TiSi. I agree that it seems to often be correlated with extreme introversion. As well, we know that the MBTI 16 function orderings are based on _healthy_ platforms -- nothing says we _can't_ have other combinations, and Aspergers would appear to be "unhealthy".

So take INTP, replace Ne with Si, and I think you have the typical poster child for Aspergers. Extreme attention to detail, dependence on analysis, difficulty facing the outer world (all introverted functions), etc.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

Asperger's is MUCH different from introversion - watching any video interview of someone with legitimate Asperger's, or interacting with someone with Asperger's, will make that fact immediately obvious. Also, just as cactus_waltz said, if someone is diagnosed with Asperger's because they're a little shy or awkward, they have been misdiagnosed by an irresponsible physician.


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## CorgiGirl (Jan 3, 2011)

Bast said:


> Asperger's is MUCH different from introversion - watching any video interview of someone with legitimate Asperger's, or interacting with someone with Asperger's, will make that fact immediately obvious. Also, just as cactus_waltz said, if someone is diagnosed with Asperger's because they're a little shy or awkward, they have been misdiagnosed by an irresponsible physician.


Could you let me know what the clear differences are? With my sister (who clearly has it) she has trouble even making eye contact with people and has trouble showing her emotions in an appropriate manner. She also lets her anxiety and opinions control her, though I don't know if that's another problem or not. However my dad's convinced that him and my mom also have it. I think it's because he doesn't like socializing and he sometimes has low self-esteem about it. But his always constant effort to assimilate and to be liked, along with his abiliy to do so (nobody dislikes him and he's far more smooth than some extroverts), makes me think different. With my mom, she's just a rude and self-entitled introvert, and that's obviously going to affect how she socializes. 

Yeah, it was this talk along with talk with other people that made me start thinking that a lot of (at least non-professional) diagnosing is just not understand MBTI differences. But if you know some very obvious signs, please let me know.

Something else that bothered me, though I didn't tell her, is that my friend was talking about how some of her brothers have it. But she proudly said "you wouldn't even know when you talk to them." To me, that sounds like an introvert that's matured. I was very shy when I was in elementary school and slowly got out of my shell. And I've heard similar stories from many other introverts.


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## CorgiGirl (Jan 3, 2011)

Sarah said:


> From knowing 3 people with mild to moderate Aspergers, one a mild extrovert, a guess would be extreme S with very little N. All 3 didn't seem to understand that people could have different thoughts, beliefs, wants, etc., than what they had themselves; in other words, they seemed to lack imagination in that sense. Here's something about Theory of Mind:
> 
> Theory of mind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Another theory I've read, at least with regard to autism, is that some people are overwhelmed by the sensing world and so withdraw into themselves and engage in various activities in an effort to solve the overwhelm problem.


My sister's most likely an INFP. She doesn't seem to understand her surroundings sometimes. So I don't think it's the S. Though you may have said that in your second paragraph.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

CorgiGirl said:


> Could you let me know what the clear differences are? With my sister (who clearly has it) she has trouble even making eye contact with people and has trouble showing her emotions in an appropriate manner. She also lets her anxiety and opinions control her, though I don't know if that's another problem or not. However my dad's convinced that him and my mom also have it. I think it's because he doesn't like socializing and he sometimes has low self-esteem about it. But his always constant effort to assimilate and to be liked, along with his abiliy to do so (nobody dislikes him and he's far more smooth than some extroverts), makes me think different. With my mom, she's just a rude and self-entitled introvert, and that's obviously going to affect how she socializes.
> 
> Yeah, it was this talk along with talk with other people that made me start thinking that a lot of (at least non-professional) diagnosing is just not understand MBTI differences. But if you know some very obvious signs, please let me know.
> 
> Something else that bothered me, though I didn't tell her, is that my friend was talking about how some of her brothers have it. But she proudly said "you wouldn't even know when you talk to them." To me, that sounds like an introvert that's matured. I was very shy when I was in elementary school and slowly got out of my shell. And I've heard similar stories from many other introverts.


Yes... some defining traits of Asperger's are very narrowly defined areas of interest, inability to read peoples' emotions in their faces unless they have been taught (while this comes innately to most humans), and an almost mechanical/robot-like affect to their voice, and often have trouble getting their thoughts out even though they may be very intelligent. Although it IS a spectrum, so some people might have it very mildly and some people can have it very seriously. I'm no expert, but from people that I have met with Asperger's, and video documentaries I've watched, it's very obvious to me when someone might have Asperger's. 

I don't mean to sound like an authority on this AT ALL because I'm not, but... Well, I wish I could find a clip of a very good video that I saw in one of my psych classes, because I think it would help - I don't think I'm describing this very well.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

Here's a very informative video. It's directed towards college professors and so focuses mostly on how to help students with Asperger's, but the narrators give a lot of good information.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

Ah, here's a good video of a young man with Asperger's describe it in his own words. Check it out.


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## StrixAluco (Apr 8, 2011)

Bast said:


> Yes... some defining traits of Asperger's are very narrowly defined areas of interest, *inability to read peoples' emotions in their faces unless they have been taught* (while this comes innately to most humans), and a*n almost mechanical/robot-like affect to their voice, and often have trouble getting their thoughts out even though they may be very intelligent*. Although it IS a spectrum, so some people might have it very mildly and some people can have it very seriously. I'm no expert, but from people that I have met with Asperger's, and video documentaries I've watched, it's very obvious to me when someone might have Asperger's.
> 
> I don't mean to sound like an authority on this AT ALL because I'm not, but... Well, I wish I could find a clip of a very good video that I saw in one of my psych classes, because I think it would help - I don't think I'm describing this very well.


It probably explains why so many INs think they share similarities with Asperger. 

Anyway, there are many other reasons for someone to have some "Aspie" traits such as lack of eye contact, sensory issues, etc. an many more disorders than just Autism which will, at some point, ressemble it (overlapping symptoms).

I have dyspraxia (and ADHD) and I've noticed that dyspraxic people can sometimes appear very similar to autistic people depending on how they are affected by it. Yes, this include poor use of body language (which can or cannot be explained by motor skills) and understanding of non verbal communication (+ literal understanding of people during most conversations). We tend to have sensory issues as well.
Obsessions may depend on people, I know many of them who are obsessive, sometimes to the extreme but only show THIS characteristic. It's also common among INTPs apparently.

It's not just enough to read/watch about Asperger or other conditions because it is very easy, sometimes, to think that you can relate to people with a specific disorder by recognising traits you've always had or developped and may seem to strongly affect your life but are still, actually, in the normal spectrum of human behaviour. And I guess that's the huge problem with this.
How to tell whether you have something strongly or not since you're subjective and alone in your head?

I don't feel so much that my problems are a handicap now, because I grew up and had to deal with them (I've been diagnosed as a young adult because nobody really cared about what the doctors said so I guess I developped coping skills) and mostly don't need to have well developped motor skills in my daily life.
Socially? You learn to cope and to accept it. It becomes normal. 

But I may have felt that this was the end of the world and stronger than anyone else when I was a teenager because it had affected my life greatly and I was immature. 

It's really subjective and in constant evolution. 

I agree with the Ji-Si appearance of Asperger because when people think of me as autistic, it is mostly when I "solve" some of my problems through a "Ti-Si" mode (if it can be explained that way.

But still, I also think that people are calling people autistic more and more because they can no longer call them geeks/nerds and imply that they are rubbish at being social. The thing is, many people are socially deficient without being on the autism spectrum.
I think it could be linked to the Broad Autism Phenotype though, but there's always been loners, introverts, (INTP), etc.

I'm not saying that mild autism doesn't exist but that perhaps we are "mildering" the spectrum a bit too much sometimes because we need to justify our insecurities and feel the need to fit in (gregarious animals). There's a huge "conformity" thing going on.


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

Introverts, Aspberger’s, Autism « Kingdom of Introversion



> It has occurred to me that many aspies and autists exhibit exaggerated or acute forms of typical introverted traits.
> In a previous post, I examined the concept of schizoid personality disorder as a way of pathologizing typical introverted behavior.
> The autistic spectrum then is perhaps a still ‘lower’ plane in which undesirable traits are bad enough to make an individual decisively dysfunctional in the larger society.
> 
> ...


I personally can see so many flaws in the argument of this article, but I thought it would be an interesting read & relevant to the topic.


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## cranberryplains (Aug 1, 2011)

I think that a trait shared by many Aspies is have the flaws of both Ps and Js (being unable to make decisions, yet being very annoyed when something doesn't go according to schedule), without many of the benefits of them.


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## MCRTS (Jul 4, 2011)

I took an online test, and it said I had boderline Aspergers. I don't think that's true. I think as an ISFJ, a lot of my traits are similar to someone with Aspergers. I don't like social situations, I like consistency, I sometimes have an obsession with certain things, and I do like routine. 

Introversion: I'm only quiet around people that I don't know too well or in large groups. I'm very verbal with my friends and family. My friends know me as a sporting, bubbly and fun, while my acquaintances think that I'm too serious and quiet. It's not a conscious choice, but I find that I do make a switch when I'm around certain people. So for me, my introversion is, partly, a choice. I can choose to be quiet or not. For someone with Aspergers, it's not their choice to be quiet or introverted. 

Routine: I like routines, but I don't live by it. If my routine is broken by someone else other than myself, I probably would be a little bothered, but I'm able to shrug it off and not dwell on it too much. I also find I have a tendency to change my mind. I would fixate over something for months, and when I'm outside the shop, I don't get it. 

Obsession: For me, it's more of an inclination to certain things. I prefer things which are "tried and true".


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## Mulberries (Feb 17, 2011)

The aspies I've known have all been xSTJs. 

From my observations:

Extreme introversion + NTx seems to bring about Schizoid Personality Disorder traits

Extreme introversion + NFx seems to bring about Avoidant Personality Disorder traits


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## Ziwosa (Sep 25, 2010)

> Individuals with AS may fail to monitor whether the listener is interested or engaged in the conversation. The speaker's conclusion or point may never be made, and attempts by the listener to elaborate on the speech's content or logic, or to shift to related topics, are often unsuccessful.


This is how I knew someone close has AS, he has no clue whatsoever whether you're actually listening to him or not. He would enter my room, start rambling off something and leave again while I didn't even move my head or eyes from whatever activity I was doing. And he'd think he had a conversation. For most part he's very capable of operating in society as he's quite intelligent. So it's not that obvious, new people don't notice it at first contact. But once you get to know him, there is no way around.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Autistics and people with Asperger's can be introverted or extroverted just like anyone else. I have known of "low-functioning" extroverted autistics even. I think because autism is getting more well-known now it's probably misdiagnosed some of the time in people who actually have other conditions. I am diagnosed autistic, by the way. I'm introverted, but I don't see that as related to my autism.


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