# Figured I would give this a shot...



## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

StraightCrushin said:


> Unless you're @_hornet_ :dry:
> 
> When you went into LII-Ti/Lii-Ne, went way over my head.


LII-Ti and LII-Ne can be translated easily enough.
It is just an INTP who favours Ti and are hesitant to engage his Ne,
vs an INTP who is more confident in engaging his Ne.
The -Ne represent the auxiliary function.

I'm sorry if me throwing these concept around bothers you, 
but the underlying understanding I have make it really easy to deal with this stuff.

We are just throwing around labels after all,* labels made by Si oriented people more often than not.*
These boxes of are too narrowly pointed toward impressions already lost, to be of real utility.

Jungs writings deal with the world of Ni pointing to Se, hence the world he paints
lend itself to easily navigate these rigid labels, once the principles he outlines is understood.
I'm fortunate enough to have decages of training in one of the symbols he links up to his
works (Taijitu), hence all this fall really natural for me after an initial learning period.

I really don't care if my typings are accurate or not though.
I don't see it as my duty to inform everyone and their cat about their true type.
Too much energy wasted trying to nitpick every semantic detail just burns me out.
I go with my gut feeling and a warning to not take my word for it. :wink:
However if you want to discuss the theory then that is a whole other ballpark.
Then I get to verbalize my Ni perceptions and that is always fun for me.


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

Introverted Intuition according to Jung:



> p. 399:...Like sensation, intuition has its subjective factor [...] Although his intuition may be stimulated by external objects, it does not concern itself with external possibilities but with what the external object has released within him. It peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the particular form of expression [...] The images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without any relation to him. consequently, in the above mentioned example, the introverted intuitive [...] would never imagine that the image he perceived might in some way refer to himself.


Introverted Intuition according to Thomson:



> p. 222: "...draws our attention to immediate sensory phenomena. ... It prompts an interest in perception itself--the process of recognizing and interpreting what we take in."
> 
> p. 225: "For INJs, patterns aren't 'out there' in the world, waiting to be discovered. They're part of us--the way we make sense of the riot of energy and information impinging on our systems. A disease syndrome is a useful construct, but that's all it is--an aggregate of observations attached to a label, telling us what to see and how to deal with it."
> 
> "Introverted Intuition is a way of orienting yourself to your environment by consciously attending to the expected interpretations of things. In this manner of orientation, you hold agnostic about whether those interpretations are true. You view them as expected interpretations, nothing more. Your world is a world of expected interpretations defined by others; you navigate through those interpretations and use them without regard to whether they're true, always keeping the interpretations separate in your mind from the actual objects."


Instances of Introverted Intuition within @LazyLeviathan - i.e. orientation via expected interpretations and conceptual standpoints liberated from the context. 

_''I don't know how others would describe me, though here and now I imagine them doing a psycho-analysis of me just for fun. My imaginary conversations with people are more meaningful than my real conversations with them. Although, I occasionally can get surprised. I sometimes imagine how people would react if they would get an opportunity to explore my interests. For example, while listening to my favorite song, I'd imagine someone else listening and reacting to it, not necessarily with me. If I were watching a show I found entertaining, I'd imagine introducing it to a friend and watch them react to it."_

_"Well, I don't find any of the images appealing. The first one is too generic. Sure, it looks fascinating and beautiful but in the end, *all we're watching is an Aurora. The photographer must be living in Sweden or Iceland.* But at least I find it preferable to the second image. The second image is meaningless and pretentious. It is meaningless because it merely portrays an unknown individual eating. *Am I supposed to feel hungry? Am I supposed to understand that eating is enjoyable? Is eating an art like everything else nowadays? As for pretentious, that's more of a subjective opinion, I guess. It feels like the image is trying to come off as sophisticated and artistic, with the croissant and the tea being the culinary cornerstones of France and England respectively, which are revered for being abundant with class* (not denying that, just annoyed with the exploitation of the "Oh, I'm so classy!" stereotypes associated with it)."_

_"Not sure where to put this. I fall into the habit of assuming that everything that comes out of someone's mouth is for a reason or a purpose. For instance, if an outgoing soul would approach me and ask, "Hey, what's up? What are your interests?", I'll promptly retain a hint of apprehension and suspicion. I might be confused because of two reasons - mild surprise that someone actually bothered to talk to me, and confusion which arises out of *my impulsive need to detect meanings and hidden motives.*"_​
Satisfies the Thomson definition. Some of her examples:



> Introverted Intuition would prompt us to liberation our sense impressions form their larger context, thereby creating new options for perception itself. For example, we might find ourselves wondering why people feel so strongly about getting a good tan. We remember reading somewhere that before the Industrial Revolution, being tan marked one as a manual laborer, because it suggested work out of doors. After the Industrial Revolution, it was pale skin that suggested correlations aren’t relevant today, but a good tan is still considered attractive. Why is that?” (222)


Compare to Thomson's Ne example:



> Extraverted Intuition would move us to unify our sense impressions with their larger context, thereby creating new options for meaning and response. For example, as we lie our blanket in the sun, perhaps we hear music in the distance. Someone passing by mentions a great restaurant in town. Suddenly we’re thinking: Hey, there must be an amusement part nearby. If it’s on our way to town, we can check out the rides before we look for the restaurant that passerby was talking about. In fact, maybe the guy knows about other places we should consider. Where did he go?


Leviathan's survey has _*zero*_ Ne. 

To further drive home the point:



> from an Extraverted Sensation perspective, you might feel very impressed upon meeting a man wearing a fancy Italian suit (signs call forth a natural response and need no interpretation); from an Ni perspective, you would consciously say to yourself that he's wearing an Italian suit and this is supposed to make you think he's wealthy or upper-class or really has his act together or something like that, and therefore is supposed to make you feel impressed (signs and what they mean are connected only arbitrarily). Whether he really does have his act together is a matter upon which you reserve judgement. Consequently you don't feel impressed. You merely note the expected interpretation as no less a part of your environment than the suit itself.


 - Thomson

For those suggesting INTP which indicates Introverted Thinking as the dominant:

_"Yes. My thoughts are so associative they can get confounding. One thought quickly moving on to the next in rapid successions. For example, I'll be watching a YouTube video and something in the video will intrigue me and compel me to research on it (Wikipedia) but then, while thinking about what it is that intrigued me, my mind conjures more connections and ultimately, I start struggling to remember my thoughts. This is the main reason why I have numerous tabs open at the same time. My thoughts float tempestuously in my mind and I cannot organize them. I sometimes even feel the urge to write them down so that I can remember them. Subsequently, especially if I try to rewind my thought process, I would get a jolt of realization and recall some of my lost thoughts. Alas, some of them are lost in oblivion."_​


> Ti - Introverted Thinking as an epistemological perspective, Ti leads one to trust only things that you understand first-hand for yourself, preferably through direct, hands-on interaction [metaphysical interaction not literal.] You must see for yourself how a given thing or subject makes sense. Knowledge must emerge from the concrete reality itself, not from* preconceived categories or criteria.*


_"I am most comfortable in an argument where I'm making assumptions *based on external data* and then banking on those assumptions to arrive at a conclusion or make further conjectures and deductions. I find proof to be an important tool, but its application can be misused due to inaccurate external data, a possibility that many overlook. It is fallacious to already assume that the foundation of the argument is accurate. But then again, I have often been guilty of giving excessive credence to external sources of information. Now that I think about itI just consider external data and make assumptions based on it. I think I might be inclined towards empiricism."_​
Ti is where?

Bonus: find Si.


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

@LazyLeviathan

Explain how you experience the feeling function. To clarify, the feeling function does not equate to emotionalism, it equates to values. Do you value collectivism? Individualism? Are you particularity moral or ethical?

Would you sacrifice your individuality to help the collective?

Would you act against the collective if they took up a position that contradicted your personal values?

Also, type at length on this one: what does harmony mean to you (relative to values and the way you live and want to live your lfe.)


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

StraightCrushin said:


> You quoted him saying this, and it is an excellent clue. Kudos. However, the first few sentences, actually make a case against yours. They clearly show the functions Ti-Fe at work.


Explain in detail.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

@LazyLeviathan
*
ENTP or INTJ (thou I'm leaning towards ENTP) and here is why:*

A lot of people may think that you are introverted because you are not social, however when it comes to cognition that is not important. You are not a rational dominant and you have inferior Si based on what you wrote in your description. That kind of Si usually occurs in Ne doms and you didn't display many sensing characteristics, especially not much Se. The lack of Se strength and preference is indicative of Ne valuing and/or Ne function strength. Your irrationality (means your primary function is either Ne, Ni, Si or Se) is verified by the fact that you are indecisive, prefer to perceive, figure out and weigh possibilities, you do not make hasty decisions or evaluations, aka you mainly filter through a irrational function.

I can not discern which function you prefer more Te or Ti and figuring out your type kind of hangs on this. To complicate things INTJ aka Ni-Te has abysmal Si as well, but it does not manifest in hypochondriac moments like in ENxPs (believe me I self misdiagnosed a month ago with deep vein thrombosis because my left leg hurt....and I'm ENFP). This is mainly why I'm leaning towards ENTP for you. If you are wondering if the fact that you are messy factors into me thinking you are ENTP...well it does not, you could be messy/disorganized INTJ for all I know. I am mainly looking at how you process and the questionnaire indicates ENxP for the most part. 

I did not see much along the lines of Fi or Fe as you persistently analyzed things instead. Since you are young I don't think we'd need to concern ourselves with Fe at this point, if you are ENTP it will become more apparent as you age or if you are INTJ it will hurt like hell if someone throws criticism at your lack of Fe. You are in the same situation with Fi, criticism to that area should hurt like hell if ENTP.

Fe is the most vulnerable point of INTJs and Fi is the same for ENTPs.

 hope this helps and as always I advise you to give this more thought, read some Socionics and contrast the 2 systems (they are the same apple seen differently), try out the ennegram etc. In the end you decide, you know yourself best.
*
I think you are 1. Intuitive; 2. Logical; 3. Irrational, which means either Ne or Ni dom with Ti or Te.* *There was one line that made me think you have Ti preference: you didn't like self assured factual statements from people who think they are objectively accurate. I may be reading into this a bit too much thou.*

I don't see how you could be INTP outside of a hasty/erroneous and superficial MBTI typing. *I suggest exploring your rational function preference.*


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## Serpent (Aug 6, 2015)

Octavian said:


> @LazyLeviathan
> 
> Explain how you experience the feeling function. To clarify, the feeling function does not equate to emotionalism, it equates to values. Do you value collectivism? Individualism? Are you particularity moral or ethical?
> 
> ...


In the general sense, I value both depending on situations but I'm definitely inclined towards individualism. I'm not sure of either, to be honest. 

Even if I do sacrifice my individuality (which I'm often compelled to do so because I still need to work on being assertive), I will feel pangs of guilt throughout. Actually, I've often been rebellious in such cases. My parents are frequently telling me to follow social etiquette, even if it means being a different person. My opposing refrain always is, "But why? Why can't people appreciate who you are?". I don't like the idea of changing yourself just to appease a group of people who probably don't give a damn about you. They're just being polite. They could not care less how well I'm doing in school or the like. A few years ago, I once had an argument with my mother when she told me to change my clothes because I looked like a tramp. I rebelled and said, "Well, I'd rather look like a tramp then. Maybe that will give me some personality." Yeah, juvenile example, but it seemed relevant. Heh, I just had another similar moment. This one dealt with the fact that I haven't had a haircut in ages (I've been trying to keep it long intentionally). They're worried because we're going to visit out grandparents the next week.

I will, although I might be intimidated if the collective if they are present in great numbers. While I might internally criticize them, I may remain shy and never get to speak up.

Harmony... it's interesting because I've never really been concerned about harmony. Conflicts between people I'm close to do slightly perturb me, but they do not disturb me (I don't know whether I've mentioned this before but conflicts actually either fascinate or irritate me, fascinate because I'm interested in seeing where the conflict is going to end up, irritate mostly in situations where the group is progressing towards a common purpose and the conflict is merely acting as a diversion or obstacle). For the most part, I'm concerned about my inner sense of peace in this regard. Now that I think about it, I often myself critiquing the emotional environment in places. Adapting to it is difficult for me, which may be another reason why I'm socially awkward. While I understand their reasons, I still despise people who try to make me 'open up' in social gatherings. I think my mother might be a good example of Fe (I suspect she's an ESFJ). A few days ago I was surprised when she told me that she actually hated going to the various parties we had to attend because she would be usually the one apparently enjoying them a lot. Then I discovered why. She could adapt. She could fake being a different person and not lose her energy while doing so. Even I can, but I don't adapt to the environment, I actually try to _avoid adapting_ to the environment by being as different as possible. The artificial persona I create is purely internal, based on my imagination.

Now that I think about it, I tend to get offended when people accuse me of being fake or spread fake rumors about me (I don't mind it when the rumors are terrible but real, however, I don't want those rumors to project me in a different light). Does that indicate Fi PoLR? Hold on, let me find an instance. I remember having an argument on Facebook (I know, how stupid) over this. Dang, I think it's been deleted. Curiously, I can also get upset when people insult my physical appearance (based on attractiveness, not whether I'm clothed properly or well maintained), even though I usually don't care about it.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

LazyLeviathan said:


> Harmony... it's interesting because I've never really been concerned about harmony. Conflicts between people I'm close to do slightly perturb me, but they do not disturb me (I don't know whether I've mentioned this before but conflicts actually either fascinate or irritate me, fascinate because I'm interested in seeing where the conflict is going to end up, irritate mostly in situations where the group is progressing towards a common purpose and the conflict is merely acting as a diversion or obstacle). For the most part, I'm concerned about my inner sense of peace in this regard. Now that I think about it, I often myself critiquing the emotional environment in places. Adapting to it is difficult for me, which may be another reason why I'm socially awkward. While I understand their reasons, I still despise people who try to make me 'open up' in social gatherings. I think my mother might be a good example of Fe (I suspect she's an ESFJ). A few days ago I was surprised when she told me that she actually hated going to the various parties we had to attend because she would be usually the one apparently enjoying them a lot. Then I discovered why. She could adapt. She could fake being a different person and not lose her energy while doing so. Even I can, but I don't adapt to the environment, I actually try to _avoid adapting_ to the environment by being as different as possible. The artificial persona I create is purely internal, based on my imagination.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I tend to get offended when people accuse me of being fake. Does that indicate Fi PoLR? Hold on, let me find an instance. I remember having an argument on Facebook (I know, how stupid) over this. Curiously, I can also get upset when people insult my physical appearance (based on attractiveness, not whether I'm clothed properly or well maintained), even though I usually don't care about it.


...hmm, yeah Fe's function is to cater to people outside of yourself in order to maintain external harmony or to tear up that harmony and influence it. Actors for example are very adept at Fe, they need to be, because the job is to infuse others with feelings and alter the emotional atmosphere. Fe affects change in the outside world, it is it's function.

Fi on the other hand maintains interpersonal distance based on the subject's (you) relationship with the object (everything else). It is useful for evaluating everything's worth to you aka the relationship based on how you feel about the object, it does not directly affect change in the outside realm, but it does lead to the user acting upon that said relationship. Example: I find someone offensive so I avoid her because she makes me feel uncomfortable. For Fi doms this is absolute, for Fi aux, this is situational and ever changing, we have no stable structure to Fi (contextualizing due to Ne primary filter).


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## Serpent (Aug 6, 2015)

FreeBeer said:


> ...hmm, yeah Fe's function is to cater to people outside of yourself in order to maintain external harmony or to tear up that harmony and influence it. Actors for example are very adept at Fe, they need to be, because the job is to infuse others with feelings and alter the emotional atmosphere. Fe affects change in the outside world, it is it's function.


But Fe is included in the ENTP cognitive stack, or is it used differently than in Fe dominants like my mother? Is ENFP a possibility? Perhaps I am stuck in an Ne-Te loop, if that theory holds account. Of course, INTJ still remains a possibility too.



> I find someone offensive so I avoid her because she makes me feel uncomfortable.


I used to think that was Si. I definitely relate to that. This is why I can be quite narrow-minded in some situations. What is Ti PoLR like?

I think I'm beginning to be inclined towards Fi. As a matter of fact, Fe sounds distressing.

In Socionics, Fe is listed to be a Strong albeit Unvalued function for ENFP. What does that mean? Also, I'm interested in more information about Fi PoLR and Fe PoLR.

LAST EDIT - Yeah, this is a bad habit of mine. Would you believe that every time I write a post and submit it, I start walking and thinking about it, and then come up with more questions or statements? It's amusing in a way. The EDIT function is a useful tool for people like me.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

LazyLeviathan said:


> But Fe is included in the ENTP cognitive stack, or is it used differently than in Fe dominants like my mother? Is ENFP a possibility? Perhaps I am stuck in an Ne-Te loop, if that theory holds account. Of course, INTJ still remains a possibility too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, in ENTPs Fe is the mobilizing function:


> The mobilizing function is also called the activating function and the hidden agenda function. Help in this element is appreciated, but past a certain point is seen as excessive. *Fe:* The individual longs for situations where people are having fun, laughing and joking, and feel emotionally free and spontaneous. However, he is generally unable to produce this atmosphere himself and uses other means to create situations where there is a good chance that others will take the emotional initiative and create a fun and emotionally stimulating atmosphere. Failure at such attempts are met with dismay, which the individual either hides or reacts to with frustration and annoyance.


-.- eh well Ti PoLR comes with me lacking a sense of clear internal logical structure when trying to explain or to understand something. If I do not write it out, it becomes jumbled and difficult for others and me to understand. Even so my thinking tends to be erratic & due to Ne I tend towards cross contextualizing a lot. I branch out and pull in information that at first glance seems out of context and not useful. The end result is rambling, repeating myself, seemingly contradicting myself as I try to clarify how I see things connected. ^^ in my brain there is chaos, but I do not seem to be stupid despite that. Brain dumping and talking stuff out with other people is important for this reason. I require feedback to see what ideas are useful and what is not. The forums seem useful for this as I'm not very social tbh and social etiquette irritates me. I also do not trust subjective logic so i tend to need to verify it for myself before I accept it :S...which is a lengthy process at times. I clearly prefer objective logic backed up by evidence/facts.

...it also hurts a lot when people insult my intelligence.

I do have the same issues with social etiquette as you and think about it much the same.

*The difference between Te & Ti is that* the former is objective verifiable factual logic, such as when you are explaining how light works, while the latter is abstract pure logic often found in philosophy where categorization and logical system building is done. Te is more useful in figuring out how stuff works efficiently and according to what logic in the outside world, which leads to at times enforcing this, a sense of efficiency. Ti is similar to Fi as in it establishes the object's logical consistency from the subject's point of view aka does that make sense overall according to what I know. Similar to how Fi senses discrepancies in feeling tones Ti does the same with logical consistency.


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## Serpent (Aug 6, 2015)

FreeBeer said:


> Hmm, in ENTPs Fe is the mobilizing function:
> 
> -.- eh well Ti PoLR comes with me lacking a sense of clear internal logical structure when trying to explain or to understand something. If I do not write it out, it becomes jumbled and difficult for others and me to understand. Even so my thinking tends to be erratic & due to Ne I tend towards cross contextualizing a lot. I branch out and pull in information that at first glance seems out of context and not useful. The end result is rambling, repeating myself, seemingly contradicting myself as I try to clarify how I see things connected. ^^ in my brain there is chaos, but I do not seem to be stupid despite that. Brain dumping and talking stuff out with other people is important for this reason. I require feedback to see what ideas are useful and what is not. The forums seem useful for this as I'm not very social tbh and social etiquette irritates me.
> 
> ...


I can identify.
Do you often feel more inclined to use examples and metaphors instead of words to explain concepts? The converse is also true. The best way to explain something to me is through examples or metaphors, maybe even anecdotes. If you've read Artemis Fowl, there is this scene where the protagonist is explaining the concept of time shifts and limbo to his butler using concrete objects (I think they were utensils, a napkin was also included) which I found delightful. Damn it, I know I have the book. Hopefully, I haven't temporarily lost it.
Even though it's illogical and impossible, I just wish people could read my mind instead of asking me to explain something. The explanation in my mind is like an assortment of disparate pieces of information in various or even incomplete forms but still coherent, at least to me.

I think it's safe to assume that my Judging functions are Fi and Te now. Since I'm an irrational intuitive, this leaves INTJ and ENFP, with an inclination towards the latter.

Amazing. This thread is expanding my mind, jettisoning fallacious assumptions and notions of the past and granting lots of useful information. Until now, I had been under the assumption that it was Fe that was concerned with noting the feeling discrepancies (subtle shifts in inflection and facial expressions etc.). That was one of the reasons why I was still holding on to the possibility of being a Fe user (the other one being muddled with stereotypes that could correlated to mere politeness). The most important revelation is that I am principally concerned with my own feeling tones. Even when I'm kind to others, it's not because I'm concerned about how they're feeling, it's because I don't want to jeopardize _my_ relationship with them. In essence, the decision to be polite primarily concerned my well-being, even though superficially it may have looked as if I was mainly concerned for the other's well-being. Whenever I do attempt to influence someone else's emotional state (usually an individual, definitely not a group), it's because I want them to feel how I feel, not because I want to cultivate external harmony. I might as well be the contradiction to the collective emotional state in any setting. I usually am.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

LazyLeviathan said:


> I can identify.
> Do you often feel more inclined to use examples and metaphors instead of words to explain concepts? The converse is also true. The best way to explain something to me is through examples or metaphors, maybe even anecdotes. If you've read Artemis Fowl, there is this scene where the protagonist is explaining the concept of time shifts and limbo to his butler using concrete objects (I think they were utensils, a napkin was also included) which I found delightful. Damn it, I know I have the book. Hopefully, I haven't temporarily lost it.
> Even though it's illogical and impossible, I just wish people could read my mind instead of asking me to explain something. The explanation in my mind is like an assortment of disparate pieces of information in various or even incomplete forms but still coherent, at least to me.
> 
> I think it's safe to assume that my Judging functions are Fi and Te now. Since I'm an irrational intuitive, this leaves INTJ and ENFP, with an inclination towards the latter.


I think it is safe to assume you are irrational intuitive, yes, you clearly have strong Ne & Ni, which one is valued I do not know for certain. As I said, explore the rational functions, the answer will be there.

I do find it easier, for example I explain Ne in terms of how a tree grows. Its this cross contextual contrasting of patterns, ideas, where I explain one thing with another that is easier to understand or see .

The Sociotypograph â€” determine sociotype (Sociograph) can help you if you manage to properly interpret the Reinin dichotomies...but this is at times difficult and confusing. At any rate I linked it, maybe it will be of use to you.


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

LazyLeviathan said:


> I think it's safe to assume that my Judging functions are Fi and Te now. Since I'm an irrational intuitive, this leaves INTJ and ENFP, with an inclination towards the latter.


Your stack reads as Ni-Fi to me. Your Te is _there,_ it's just very weak. It could be that it's literally lower in the stack, but I've seen no evidence of Ne in any of your posts. You actually defined Ni itself without being aware of doing so over and over again, and you clearly orient via interpretation and conceptual standpoints as an irrational lead.

I'll just say this - I think you are very behind and you have a lot of developing to do. That is probably the main reason that your type seems so ambiguous.



> Amazing. This thread is expanding my mind, jettisoning fallacious assumptions and notions of the past and granting lots of useful information.


Yeah this thread was pretty baffling with all the INTP / Ti-Fe screaming. For future reference, the people that know the least tend to speak the loudest and longest in these forums. You need to study Lenore Thomson, Jung, and associated analysts in depth while evaluating yourself - ultimately coming to a typing for yourself. Don't let anyone in this thread tell you what type you are, just take it as a starting point and explore the options put forth. 



> Until now, I had been under the assumption that it was Fe that was concerned with noting the feeling discrepancies (subtle shifts in inflection and facial expressions etc.). That was one of the reasons why I was still holding on to the possibility of being a Fe user (the other one being muddled with stereotypes that could correlated to mere politeness).


Fe desires to maintain external harmony. Even when you appear to do this, it is as if a gun is being held to your head, or that you're doing it out of fear. It doesn't appear to be a natural disposition (or even desire of yours.) 

Also if you're trying to pin point function use, you cannot rely on emergent behaviors to do that - which is the cause of all the bullshit stereotypes. You have to examine cognition. Two individuals of the same exact cognition could take polar opposite actions in an identical situation, but the same cognition still lead to those polar opposite decisions. They are still the same type. Look at what is beneath the behavior. 



> The most important revelation is that I am principally concerned with my own feeling tones. Even when I'm kind to others, it's not because I'm concerned about how they're feeling, it's because I don't want to jeopardize _my_ relationship with them. In essence, the decision to be polite primarily concerned my well-being, even though superficially it may have looked as if I was mainly concerned for the other's well-being. Whenever I do attempt to influence someone else's emotional state (usually an individual, definitely not a group), it's because I want them to feel how I feel, not because I want to cultivate external harmony. I might as well be the contradiction to the collective emotional state in any setting. I usually am.


ENFP = Ne-*Fi*-Te-Si

INTJ = Ni-*Te*-Fi-Se

Are you primarily concerned with Fi information or Te information? How do you navigate the world. If you found yourself in a very fragile or dangerous situation would you rely on your subjective value system to guide you, or would you use Te reasoning to make your way out of it? In any case.

Introverted Intuition:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/129792-lenore-thomsons-introverted-intuition.html

Articles - Introverted Intuition

http://personalitycafe.com/intj-art...on-introverted-intuitve-type-ni-dominant.html

Introverted Intuition (Ni)

INTPs’ Introverted Thinking (Ti) vs. INTJs’ Extraverted Thinking (Te)

Why INFPs, INTPs, INFJs, & INTJs Struggle to Act - Personality Junkie


Extraverted Intuition:

http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temp...05-lenore-thomsons-extraverted-intuition.html

Extraverted Intuition (Ne)

How ENTPs, ENFPs, INTPs, & INFPs Use Ne in their Ideation & Communication

Articles - Extraverted Intuition

http://personalitycafe.com/entp-art...n-extraverted-intuitive-type-ne-dominant.html


Ni vs. Ne

Introverted Intuition (Ni)


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## StraightCrushin (Dec 20, 2011)

@_Octavian_

Hey there Octa. It is very clear you have a deep knowledge of this! I wish I could explain to you why it comes out as Ti-Fe to me, but I don't share the same depth and extensiveness in typing as you do. However, I will read your posts, as well as FreeBeer's and Lazy's. I am not sticking with INTP because I am hard-headed, but because I place a lot of trust in my perceptions, and what my mind draws from them. So i'll continue reading and let you know of anything.

It will take a while though :tongue:

@_FreeBeer_

What makes me skeptical of what you're doing, is the use of multiple systems to figure this out. Using Socionics, MBTI, and Cognitive Functions. Cog-functions are the least sketchy out of the three since they come from Jung himself, but when you try to add in MBTI and Socionics (which are similar, but have two completely different perspectives; [none of the type descriptions even match up]), you get into very murky territory. Theory, especially based on something theoretical, is very hard to navigate through, and easy to get lost in. It's why I stick to functions and occasionally MBTI if desperate. At least Enneagram wasn't brought into this, thank goodness. Just one example is this:



> Fe is the most vulnerable point of INTJs and Fi is the same for ENTPs.


Says who? And if no one, why is that? Because they are the shadow feeling functions?

Why do you and Octavian have two different viewpoints on what Lazy is? This is the disconnect that irks me.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

StraightCrushin said:


> @_Octavian_
> 
> Hey there Octa. It is very clear you have a deep knowledge of this! I wish I could explain to you why it comes out as Ti-Fe to me, but I don't share the same depth and extensiveness in typing as you do. However, I will read your posts, as well as FreeBeer's and Lazy's. I am not sticking with INTP because I am hard-headed, but because I place a lot of trust in my perceptions, and what my mind draws from them. So i'll continue reading and let you know of anything.
> 
> ...


MBTI is Socionics and Socionics is MBTI, all that matters are cognitive functions and information processing, descriptions of type do not matter since we can't describe every individual's behavior in one type description. Its futile to make people fit "the mold" because everyone's life experience is different and there are too many other variables.

@Octavian isn't saying anything different from me...however he is mistaken in thinking ENFPs have a value system, our Fi is highly contextual and I just decide on what feels ok to me in that moment within that context. A value system for aux Fi does not exist, this is a misconception non Fi users have of Fi valuing types. I basically act on my relationship with the object aka how I feel about it or what value I attribute to it. The circumstances give birth to that value, I do not have any preexisting notion of a system of principles or values I adhere to and I'm fine with not having any.* I just know what feels right given the circumstances.* For some people this is perplexing but for someone with a Fi preference it is so innate we barely register that we are doing it all the time.

Fe in INTJs is the PoLR (Point of Least Resistance) aka the second weakest function in the stack after Si, which tends to be abysmal. I have known INFJs who have such a disconnect with Si, that even I could muster a better understanding and that is saying a lot. In theory at least you can't use Ni & Si at the same time ever and since the base function is Ni, Si is weak and not valued (the shadow)


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