# Help me read my piano teacher's mind



## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

MooseAndSquirrel said:


> From your initial post, when you said you were a late starter, I thought you meant you were in your 30s/40/s maybe 50s :shocked: but you clarified that later on roud:. IMO, 17 is not that late to be starting for the reasons that @_Van_ noted in a previous response.




No I have to perform at least half of the time.  my dream is a soloists career. 

Playing with an orchestra and teaching would be nice too.


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## WindowLicker (Aug 3, 2010)

Tell her your goal, and tell her you have all the hard work ready to go, amount to all her expectations she sets for you, surpass them and she will raise the bar and teach you at a pace that you are comfortable with. You don't need to read her mind, she'll believe it when she sees the potential building.


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

WindowLicker said:


> Tell her your goal, and tell her you have all the hard work ready to go, amount to all her expectations she sets for you, surpass them and she will raise the bar and teach you at a pace that you are comfortable with. You don't need to read her mind, she'll believe it when she sees the potential building.



I can't, I somehow want to figure out if its not possible for me before having to have her tell me. I'm just so damn scared to tell her. It seems very enneagram 5 in nature. Your post also leaves me feeling guilty because I recall her doing things that were in fact her raising the bar and I pushed it away out of fear. I wonder if she'd just do it again. Her expectations... You can't meet her expectations because she does not clearly define them, it's basically to play everything perfectly? Also, she doesn't seem to keep track of what I'm doing all the time. Sometime she does, sometimes she doesn't.


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## WindowLicker (Aug 3, 2010)

Musiqientist said:


> I can't, I somehow want to figure out if its not possible for me before having to have her tell me. I'm just so damn scared to tell her. It seems very enneagram 5 in nature. Your post also leaves me feeling guilty because I recall her doing things that were in fact her raising the bar and I pushed it away out of fear. I wonder if she'd just do it again. Her expectations... You can't meet her expectations because she does not clearly define them, it's basically to play everything perfectly? Also, she doesn't seem to keep track of what I'm doing all the time. Sometime she does, sometimes she doesn't.


Ya its ok to feel guilty thats natural, but you shouldn't be so pessimistic about it. The thing about challenges is they never come when you're ready, so don't push them away anymore because you never know if its something you could've risen above. I can relate because I am also trying to face intimidating situations in order to meet goals. Its not about doing everything perfectly the first time, you just have to be persistant and learn from mistakes. Concert pianists just don't give up, they can't. They miss bathroom breaks to get a song right. Thats passion and perfection all in one.


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

Musiqientist said:


> I suck, I'm 17 and have been playing a year. However I am working on mozart concerto 21, 2 chopin etudes, a bach fugue, and arabesque 1 so you see what kind of a situation I'm in? I realized my passion way late. What studio are you in mr lucky? I want to, and can change, tell me about it. It's not about criticism, she's playing mind games with me.


You don't know how lucky you are, I realized my passion for classical music at the age of 23. everyone told me that its impossible including my teachers, but I somehow got admitted to the Jerusalem music academy. now I'm one of the better guitar players(even though I don't practice as much as I should), my luck is that I'm the fastest learner I know, but I would give a lot to have been able to start at 16.
This is me a year and a half after I started playing. I'm way better now 




good luck


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## PurpleApple (Mar 11, 2013)

Musiqientist said:


> Yes, quite literally. I am a late starter and want to be a concert pianist, the only reason I am still considering it is because apparently I am progressing so quickly that I will still have a chance. You'd think she'd be very open but I cannot read her opinion of me. Help. Oh and lastly, is this by any chance posted in the wrong forum? I don't think it really fits everywhere but I can see PerC as a good place to get feedback anyways.



how do you feel about yourself? It isn't some sort of race. You can go to music school practice lots work with great people. Some of them will make you want to pull your hair out, but you will progress nonetheless. Take yourself as far as you can. Even if you don't make the big time you will always be able to find work as a pianist...trust me...people always need pianists. And you can someday teach lessons and you can perform all you want to...there you will have concerts. Therefore you will bean concert pianist . Don't let your speed of progression discourage you from your dream. Remind yourself regularly why you want it, and take the constructive and ignore the mean. Ask people for their suggestions and constructive criticism and you will learn and not be so taken aback. Your teacher should be providing you with lots of constructive criticism and if they aren't you need a new teacher. However , maybe your teacher just realizes its more important what you think of yourself. I would start by asking them for suggestions on how to improve not for their opinion on your playing or if they think you will be a concert pianist. If you want to be you will be even if its unconventional. Good luck.


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## MooseAndSquirrel (Apr 10, 2012)

Nirel said:


> You don't know how lucky you are, I realized my passion for classical music at the age of 23. everyone told me that its impossible including my teachers, but I somehow got admitted to the Jerusalem music academy. now I'm one of the better guitar players(even though I don't practice as much as I should), my luck is that I'm the fastest learner I know, but I would give a lot to have been able to start at 16.
> This is me a year and a half after I started playing. I'm way better now
> 
> 
> ...


 @Nirel, way to go  ! I love Granados though I've only played this one as a duet. I wished the lighting was better in your vid.


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

MooseAndSquirrel said:


> @_Nirel_, way to go  ! I love Granados though I've only played this one as a duet. I wished the lighting was better in your vid.


Thnx:laughing: The sound quality is what bothers me though. Hopefully I'll get good enough to get real recordings with good lighting and sound soon


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

PurpleApple said:


> how do you feel about yourself? It isn't some sort of race. You can go to music school practice lots work with great people. Some of them will make you want to pull your hair out, but you will progress nonetheless. Take yourself as far as you can. Even if you don't make the big time you will always be able to find work as a pianist...trust me...people always need pianists. And you can someday teach lessons and you can perform all you want to...there you will have concerts.


How do you know that? It's really not how it feels. I want proof...



> Ask people for their suggestions and constructive criticism and you will learn and not be so taken aback. Your teacher should be providing you with lots of constructive criticism and if they aren't you need a new teacher.


I am too shy. 



> However , maybe your teacher just realizes its more important what you think of yourself. I would start by asking them for suggestions on how to improve not for their opinion on your playing or if they think you will be a concert pianist. If you want to be you will be even if its unconventional. Good luck.


How do I determine if that's what she realizes... This leaves me intensely curious. I wanna go into it more. Need more ideas.....


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

Nirel said:


> You don't know how lucky you are, I realized my passion for classical music at the age of 23. everyone told me that its impossible including my teachers, but I somehow got admitted to the Jerusalem music academy. now I'm one of the better guitar players(even though I don't practice as much as I should), my luck is that I'm the fastest learner I know, but I would give a lot to have been able to start at 16.
> This is me a year and a half after I started playing. I'm way better now


Yeah that is encouraging. It's just hard for me to belive that somebody with my conditions could ever...


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## PurpleApple (Mar 11, 2013)

Musiqientist said:


> How do I determine if that's what she realizes... This leaves me intensely curious. I wanna go into it more. Need more ideas.....



Ask for specific feedback, instead of an overall opinion. It matters more and is more useful to you. Who gives a crap if your teacher doesn't think you can make it big time? If it is what you want to do, make it happen. Asking them for specific feedback gives you their opinion on something you can fix and how to fix it. If they truly felt you couldn't do it they probably wouldn't waste their time.


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

Musiqientist said:


> Yeah that is encouraging. It's just hard for me to belive that somebody with my conditions could ever...


I believe Verdi started studying music quite late and did his first public performance at 27. But anyway don't over think it, make it happen.


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

Van said:


> I did a BMus in performance but I'm no concert soloist, haha. It is an incredibly, incredibly hard path that you want to walk, and I suspect that might be why your teacher doesn't encourage you to it.
> 
> 
> I'll point out that as a late starter, you have a special advantage when it comes to teaching, and teaching technique in particular. You have more awareness of your own learning and you'll be better equipped to guide others through the same process (not saying you must teach, but teaching is a staple of many musicians and I just think you're in a position to be particularly good at it  ).





PurpleApple said:


> Ask for specific feedback, instead of an overall opinion. It matters more and is more useful to you. Who gives a crap if your teacher doesn't think you can make it big time? If it is what you want to do, make it happen. Asking them for specific feedback gives you their opinion on something you can fix and how to fix it. If they truly felt you couldn't do it they probably wouldn't waste their time.


think there must be something wrong if they don't think so, because of its not true why don't they think that I can make it? As she is someone with so much knowledge about the music world. Who's advice can you trust more? What do I know compared to her? I'm in a risky spot from the beginning. If I don't see some glimmer of hope why not a kid harming myself and moving forward with this? It would hurt so bad if it fails.... I have talents in a wide variety if fields, I would feel like a fool.

What do you all mean by "if they truly felt you couldn't do it" what did i say that pointed out that she's invested anything in me? I'm not sure she has at least. I just go to lessons like any of her other students.


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

Nirel said:


> I believe Verdi started studying music quite late and did his first public performance at 27. But anyway don't over think it, make it happen.


Most would say that something like this is worth thinking over! I've heard that most regret going into music! And they had a much better status than me. They say some of the competition is not even fair, what would do you do in a situation like that? Some would say I shouldn't even consider it much less just...


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## PurpleApple (Mar 11, 2013)

Do what you feel most passionate about. Life is too short. You can always change your mind down the road and it will spare you the regrets of a path that requires such cumulative skill. I really mean it when I say pianists are the most in demand for things, even if it isn't being a soloist.


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

PurpleApple said:


> Do what you feel most passionate about. Life is too short. You can always change your mind down the road and it will spare you the regrets of a path that requires such cumulative skill. I really mean it when I say pianists are the most in demand for things, even if it isn't being a soloist.


Yeah but changing after the regrets sounds so cruel... But I would probably only care about being a soloist... An accompanist for classical would work too but it has to be... Performing! No church!


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## PurpleApple (Mar 11, 2013)

Musiqientist said:


> Yeah but changing after the regrets sounds so cruel... But I would probably only care about being a soloist... An accompanist for classical would work too but it has to be... Performing! No church!


The less narrow minded you are about what you play the more success you will have at finding work, the more variety of skills you will have, and the happier you will be.

You don't always need to be the center of attention to be important to music making. Many churches play/sing very difficult and beautiful music by important composers. I'm an atheist and I wouldn't rule it out. These are things you can do to use your skills to make money, and build your skillset while you have recitals and audition for things.

This doesn't even mention the fact that you can go into so many other fields with that skillset. You can go into conducting, you can compose, you can go into theory or history, again you can teach. And you can do all of these things, _while_ performing.


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## PurpleApple (Mar 11, 2013)

You are seeking external validation. When you feel like you are doing it for you, because you are so passionate about playing the piano it is what you are meant to do, then you will know what to do and you will make it happen. 

If you are sitting here saying "If my piano teacher thinks I can make it and I'm awesome, then I will do it" That tells me you should not do it, because in the end everything is subjective, and their opinion only matters if you use it to improve yourself. 

If you want it bad enough that what they say will not affect your decision...then I say go for it.


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

Musiqientist said:


> Most would say that something like this is worth thinking over! I've heard that most regret going into music! And they had a much better status than me. They say some of the competition is not even fair, what would do you do in a situation like that? Some would say I shouldn't even consider it much less just...


I learned through my life experience(and it may not be true for everyone), that I never regretted taking a chance. However, if I wanted to do something and didn't because people told me not to, It stayed with me for years.
I'm well aware how hard it is to be a classical musician, this is what I do. Ask yourself how much you really want it, because its much easier doing anything else. For me, I know that I can't see my self doing anything else. If you do wish to become a musician though, you can know that if you're good enough you will succeed


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## WindowLicker (Aug 3, 2010)

"I'm just afraid to play in front of her and very scared of making small changes to the music for the first time in front of her. Like if she tells me to add a trill, I'll want to do it at home first multiple times on my own before showing her, it feel scary to do otherwise somehow. I'm afraid to make that kind of mistake in front of her because it shows incompetency and her personality is quite elitist. This all feels foreign to me because these kinds of things would never have been a problem for me just a couple years ago. "

You should conquer this before you do anything else.You're just nervous and want to suceed, yet you also want approval and you trust her intuition more than your own. (I know that feeling!) You have a really big goal and thats understandable. Right now you need to find a way to condition yourself to feel unafraid and confident when you play music around your teacher that way when you tell her your goal, even if she doubts it you'll still be concert pianist material. First thing is get rid of fear, it does nothing but hold you back. When you're practicing and you succeed, every time say to yourself something like, "That sounded right" when it does or even if it is perfect "I can do that again." and when you do, you'll feel the confidence. Walk over it like you're walking barefoot over hot coals. When she says something like "Add a trill" do it like you mean it, and focus on the acheivement. She may expect you to do it perfectly the first time, but she also expects you to try again even if you don't get it right the first time. I can almost hear my mom thinking " that wasn't good" even when she says it was, because I know that "wow, you can do that?" Actually means I did good. But I only hear that if I do it right the 1st time and went above her expectations, and thats like constantly chasing a rainbow. 
Overall your teacher will respect your persistance and this is one of those qualities that will lead her to believe that you mean it when you say you want to be a concert pianist. She went to Julliard so she knows the value of dominating fear. In fact I know that ESFJs are great at encouragement, if you asked her how to overcome fear, she may have a great answer.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

Musiqientist said:


> You'd think she'd be very open but I cannot read her opinion of me.


You shouldn't read her opinions. The whole experience should be as natural as possible, including the confusion. If you focus on reading her mind to please her you will end up as a one trick pony. Just go with the flow, your potential/talent is crucial than anything and everything. By the way, you better change your teacher if you are experiencing a "serious" communication problem.


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## MooseAndSquirrel (Apr 10, 2012)

yet another intj said:


> You shouldn't read her opinions. The whole experience should be as natural as possible, including the confusion. If you focus on reading her mind to please her you will end up as a one trick pony. Just go with the flow, your potential/talent is crucial than anything and everything. *By the way, you better change your teacher if you are experiencing a "serious" communication problem*.


Having been on BOTH sides of the music stand as it were (student and now teacher), I'm having a hard time believing the fault in poor communication lies soley with the teacher. @Musiqientist, I what I'm about say and ask is meant in the kindest way possible, but it really does seem as if you are the one determining the rules for communication. Instead of directly communicating with her, i.e. discussing your needs, wants, goals, desires, uncertainties, specifically asking for constructive critiquing of your playing etc. (as nearly everyone contributing to your thread has encouraged you to do), you insist on wanting to "read your piano teacher", and expecting her to somehow read your mind and know what you want as well.

Unless I'm really missing something here, I don't understand why you're not being direct with your teacher? It seems that you keep asking variations of the same question ...


> How do I determine if that's what she realizes...


So, are you asking your teacher to give you constructive feedback on your playing at lessons? Are you asking for specific ways in which you can make improvements so that you can work on these things when you practice between your next lesson? Are/have you been clear with her about what exactly it is that you need from her in your lessons and have you asked if she is able to provide you with those things? How have you gone about doing that?

If you HAVE had those conversations with her and she's unresponsive, demonstrates or says that her teaching style and philosophy is more hands off (which I've not seen you mention), then yeah it might be time to look for another teacher.

However, if you HAVEN'T had those conversations you're only delaying your potential progress and success, especially if she would be responsive to helping you in the ways you need once she understands what that is for you. Really, you're not helping her help you.

Seems to me that if you avoid directly communicating with your current teacher, or any teacher for that matter, you're likely to keep running into the same wall and being frustrated and that would be a shame because it really sounds like playing music is something that you really have a passion for.


Another thing that puzzles me is this...


> Originally Posted by PurpleApple
> Even if you don't make the big time you will always be able to find work as a pianist...trust me...people always need pianists. And you can someday teach lessons and you can perform all you want to...there you will have concerts.
> 
> *Musiqientist
> How do you know that? It's really not how it feels. I want proof...*


What kind of proof is it that you need? Why do you doubt that statement? I'm not sure where you live but even in my small rural college community I know that statement to be true. Unless you are living waaaaay off the grid, in an impoverished environment and have no desire to ever put yourself in a place where circumstances would provide you with such opportunites mentioned, I can't think of how that statement couldn't be true.


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

> Having been on BOTH sides of the music stand as it were (student and now teacher), I'm having a hard time believing the fault in poor communication lies soley with the teacher. @_Musiqientist_, I what I'm about say and ask is meant in the kindest way possible, but it really does seem as if you are the one determining the rules for communication. Instead of directly communicating with her, i.e. discussing your needs, wants, goals, desires, uncertainties, specifically asking for constructive critiquing of your playing etc. (as nearly everyone contributing to your thread has encouraged you to do), you insist on wanting to "read your piano teacher", and expecting her to somehow read your mind and know what you want as well.


Yeah, I never said that it's her fault. I don't want to change teachers! I just feel that she is playing mind tricks with me. I don't want to leave her because I feel that if I truly want to succeed in music I have to be able to face this kind of thing. I think that the people who are the best teachers are probably familiar with these types of tactics. I feel that if I discuss things like that with her that there is a strong possibility that there are still things that she will hold back. I think this lady has a lot of information. 

Indeed, I am very secretive of her! I want to read her mind because I am so shy of her. I feel like I must know what's going on. With this thread I also wanted to for instance, figure out why I feel this way about her...This is a psych forum after all. I don't see why there is anything wrong with that...? I have a feeling that I am trying to find out if she cares, and if she cares or has the potential to, I do not want to leave. If she doesn't then I'll have to come up with my own strategies which is of course not preferred. I think I'm also trying to figure out why I'm shy of her. Another thing I think is, that I'm looking for a supporter because I'm scared of going into music. 



> So, are you asking your teacher to give you constructive feedback on your playing at lessons? Are you asking for specific ways in which you can make improvements so that you can work on these things when you practice between your next lesson? Are/have you been clear with her about what exactly it is that you need from her in your lessons and have you asked if she is able to provide you with those things? How have you gone about doing that?


Yes, I've asked her. It's not necessary though because she does that enough. 



> If you HAVE had those conversations with her and she's unresponsive, demonstrates or says that her teaching style and philosophy is more hands off (which I've not seen you mention), then yeah it might be time to look for another teacher.


She's not hands off, I want her to be both. 



> However, if you HAVEN'T had those conversations you're only delaying your potential progress and success, especially if she would be responsive to helping you in the ways you need once she understands what that is for you. Really, you're not helping her help you.


Honestly, I've dropped a lot of clues and she responds half way. She expects me to be outright with it I think. She knows more than you think. 



> Seems to me that if you avoid directly communicating with your current teacher, or any teacher for that matter, you're likely to keep running into the same wall and being frustrated and that would be a shame because it really sounds like playing music is something that you really have a passion for.


Yeah, I'm wondering if that passion is enough. I wonder if it can take me farther than those who had more fortunate circumstances than me. I need help with it!


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

> how do you feel about yourself? It isn't some sort of race. You can go to music school practice lots work with great people. Some of them will make you want to pull your hair out, but you will progress nonetheless. Take yourself as far as you can. Even if you don't make the big time you will always be able to find work as a pianist...trust me...people always need pianists. And you can someday teach lessons and you can perform all you want to...there you will have concerts


I feel like nobody would want me if I started so late, I somehow think that the way i stand out would be so undesirable. Like it's not even a matter of catching up because I won't catch up. It's impossible. I don't know if I will ever make it into a good music school. I want to be able to feel some kind of potential in myself. How do you know that you will eventually perform and have concerts? I don't want to just be a piano teacher and nothing else. It's just there are so many musicians, pianists included I am sure that don't have almost any work. They try to get by by teaching. Is there something I am missing? Are these the one's that just didn't practice enough or simply couldn't make it in because of the competition that looks so sketchy to me? My uncle was a top cellist and couldn't enter a major symphony for whatever reason. What does it take to get in?


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

yet another intj said:


> You shouldn't read her opinions. The whole experience should be as natural as possible, including the confusion. If you focus on reading her mind to please her you will end up as a one trick pony. Just go with the flow, your potential/talent is crucial than anything and everything. By the way, you better change your teacher if you are experiencing a "serious" communication problem.


Including the confusion? Yeah I have experiences of the one trick pony thing now haha. Your potential/talent thing is what I'm obsessing over. I cannot determine it.


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

WindowLicker said:


> "I'm just afraid to play in front of her and very scared of making small changes to the music for the first time in front of her. Like if she tells me to add a trill, I'll want to do it at home first multiple times on my own before showing her, it feel scary to do otherwise somehow. I'm afraid to make that kind of mistake in front of her because it shows incompetency and her personality is quite elitist. This all feels foreign to me because these kinds of things would never have been a problem for me just a couple years ago. "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

PurpleApple said:


> You are seeking external validation. When you feel like you are doing it for you, because you are so passionate about playing the piano it is what you are meant to do, then you will know what to do and you will make it happen.
> 
> If you are sitting here saying "If my piano teacher thinks I can make it and I'm awesome, then I will do it" That tells me you should not do it, because in the end everything is subjective, and their opinion only matters if you use it to improve yourself.
> 
> If you want it bad enough that what they say will not affect your decision...then I say go for it.


...It won't affect me trying to do it eventually but it will affect in what way I decide to do it. I may choose my majors differently and practice and take a certain number of units these next few years based on this. I will view music...differently. Right now, I am on a route to medical school. I want to know how much potential I have compared to the average. I won't waste potential if my chances are good enough for my own liking but I need to know!


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## Musiqientist (Nov 6, 2012)

> Ask yourself how much you really want it, because its much easier doing anything else. For me, I know that I can't see my self doing anything else. If you do wish to become a musician though, you can know that if you're good enough you will succeed


I'm trying to determine how good I am! It's so hard, I honestly don't know myself to the depths that well. I can see myself doing a ridiculous amount of things but I don't think it's really what I want. I'm working on if I really want it, how do I know? I'm willing to practice for sure. But I won't like it if it ends as a hobby.

For me it's so hard because I know I can be successful in almost any field. But this one, the one I desire...is uncertain. I would be a good physician, researcher, engineer, computer scientist, accountant. ... writer.. I want to be a professor. It's just so hard.


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## WindowLicker (Aug 3, 2010)

I was wondering what happened to you... hmm ok. so


Musiqientist said:


> 1 Yeah because why should I have better intuition than her? If I has her career I'd know so much more than I know now so there's no question about that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The quote didn't come up on my notifications so how has the last 2 weeks been in lessons? 

Its impossible to know what will happen in the future, especially for ESFJ, because they really like to leave that to others, or otherwise don't believe in that. You wont know that for years until you are playing in front of a live audience, but for now you have an aspiration. I think thats how every concert pianist starts, with a goal and a passion. Anything else is left up to hard work/practice.

What you're describing sounds like anxiety, but its just because you're constantly being challenged. 
Thats an amazing feeling, I thrive on that. When my teachers are not challenging I think that they don't believe in me. 
You have to be careful with that, because seeing too many negatives can also do the same thing and make you lose sight of potential possibilities, and believing positive things really can help you focus and see things for what they are. Not that its not good to have a balance, I just don't think "panic" goes well with "smooth playing."
You wont know how good you really are until you play something naturally the first time without fear that you played a month ago feeling like you were being pushed out of an airplane.


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## Oleg (May 5, 2013)

The answer for your question is: "vodka".


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