# Se vs Ne - Which am I?



## Technik (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm still iffy on my MBTI type. I'm fairly certain it's IXTP -- some weird cross between INTP and ISTP, though it's more IsTP because I lean more to the practical side of ISTP.

From my understanding, the thing that separates INTP from ISTP are the aux/tert functions, which are inverted. Se/Ni for ISTP, and Ne/Si for INTP. I'm not completely clear on what Si _actually_ does.

I tend to feel like I'm in the ISTP's Ti-Ni loop, but I don't know. I read somewhere a funny observation: ISTP is "I want to be a ninja" while INTP is "I want to be a ninja - wait no, that's too dangerous!" Is this fair to say?

Allow me to provide a personal anecdote of my confusion.

Earlier tonight, I was standing outside enjoying the cool, windy night. I listened to the wind blowing through the trees, annoying dogs barking endlessly in the distance; I noticed the cool breeze flowing around me. I could see the silhouette of trees shaking from the wind. This is a function of Se, right? What about my recall of the scene? Is that Si?

It doesn't stop there. While I was listening to the dogs barking, I was trying to figure out where they were coming from, what it could be barking at. Perhaps he was barking at his own echo? As I heard the wind blowing through the trees, I accurately predicted I would soon feel the force of wind coming towards me from the south. Would that be Ne, wouldn't it? Making guesses, thinking about possibilities (the wind) and causes (the dogs), etc?

I know all functions can be utilized, and it's about preferences or primary use, but that would help with figuring out my MBTI type. I'm not an adrenaline junkie or thrill-seeker like the ISTP stereotypes and profiles, but the "academia" school of thought most INTP has irritates me (you have a theory? great. I understand it just fine, and it's an interesting thought, but what can it actually _do_ for us?). I can tolerate theory if there's a reason for learning it, such as a personal interest that I think I could use in the future if not now, but most of the time I don't like to get bogged down in mathematical proofs of theoretical concepts...


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## Juan M (Mar 11, 2011)

You sound like an ISTP for me, the guess about the winds seems Se to me, too much self aware of the surroundings, Ne users (INTPs more than else) doesnt pay attention that much to the enviroment, to the "The wind is coming towards me from the south" (i dont find that an atractive analisis either), the "fact" that you doesnt fit very well the *stereotypes* its not strange, much people doesnt.

Also you seems very practical and not aware of the possibilities, every theory can be adaptable to actually do something in the world, finding how the universe begin, for example, has innumerable concequenses in how the social world react about it (religions would be a very important part of the debate), so my guess is ISTP.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Technik said:


> Earlier tonight, I was standing outside enjoying the cool, windy night. I listened to the wind blowing through the trees, annoying dogs barking endlessly in the distance; I noticed the cool breeze flowing around me. I could see the silhouette of trees shaking from the wind. This is a function of Se, right? What about my recall of the scene? Is that Si?


That seems to be Se over Si for sure. Si is more internal. Si deals with stuff already in your head. Si is not expansive, but it "burrows into" ideas and finds material there.


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## TaylorS (Jan 24, 2010)

You sound like an ISTP and you are in good company, it's what Jung typed himself as. I think a lot of intellectual ISTPs mistype as INTPs because of ignorant stereotypes of Se and from idiotic type descriptions saying that ISTPs like athletics and working with machines.


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## Dino (Mar 25, 2011)

Technik said:


> I tend to feel like I'm in the ISTP's Ti-Ni loop, but I don't know. I read somewhere a funny observation: ISTP is "I want to be a ninja" while INTP is "I want to be a ninja - wait no, that's too dangerous!" Is this fair to say?
> 
> Allow me to provide a personal anecdote of my confusion.
> 
> ...


That doesn't mean anything. Anyone can do that.


Here's a quick test for you: Talk me about a pencil. Write anything about it. Go WILD.


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## Technik (Dec 28, 2011)

Dino said:


> Here's a quick test for you: Talk me about a pencil. Write anything about it. Go WILD.


A pencil is an instrument used for writing. Despite being referred to as "lead" pencils, their core is actually made of graphite, a carbon-based material, which is used to make marks on a surface. The graphite core is surrounded by wood, usually shaped as a hexagon to prevent rolling. Most pencils have an eraser at one end, to make corrections easier and quicker. Because of the sharp point of a pencil, it can be used as an improvised weapon.

I see where you're going with this. Very sensing oriented, my answer; the only Ne 'possibility' I could think up is the improvised weapon gig, which is probably still more Se because of the tool-aspect. What would be an example of an Ne-centered piece about a pencil?


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> What would be an example of an Ne-centered piece about a pencil?


Probably this chair (which I suspect isn't that comfortable to sit on)


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Technik said:


> A pencil is an instrument used for writing. Despite being referred to as "lead" pencils, their core is actually made of graphite, a carbon-based material, which is used to make marks on a surface. The graphite core is surrounded by wood, usually shaped as a hexagon to prevent rolling. Most pencils have an eraser at one end, to make corrections easier and quicker. Because of the sharp point of a pencil, it can be used as an improvised weapon.
> 
> I see where you're going with this. Very sensing oriented, my answer; the only Ne 'possibility' I could think up is the improvised weapon gig, which is probably still more Se because of the tool-aspect. What would be an example of an Ne-centered piece about a pencil?


Your answer is also more Se oriented. My Si response would be more along the lines of:

"Any pencil? Well, for starters, I only use regular pencils. The mechanical ones always break. I don't even put much pressure on them-but I digress. I also have this thing for soft erasers. Now I use a dedicated eraser, because I went through the other ones too fast. Umm... Yeah, I think that's about it. *moment* Wait! I always sharpen pencils a lot. It makes my writing more readable, I find. Not that it is very readable anyways, but blunt pencils make the problem much worse. I've been told by my sister that I write like a boy. I think that gender doesn't matter for writing style. I don't think your handwriting says _anything_ about your personality, to be honest..."


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## Technik (Dec 28, 2011)

I tend to prefer mechanical pencils because they don't need sharpened, so you always write with a sharp, crisp appearance. The lead doesn't break for me usually, as I don't have a tendency to press hard when writing, and if it does, more lead is just a click away instead of requiring a loud electrical automatic sharpener, or a quiet, time-consuming manual sharpener. The erasers on mechanical pencils are also far superior to the standard wood pencil's. But I usually use one of those dedicated pink erasers too, because you can really get in there with some force to rid the paper of those cursed mistakes. Who would've thought such a simple thing as pencils could spark this much conversation and analysis?


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> Who would've thought such a simple thing as pencils could spark this much conversation and analysis?


An intuitive.

I think you have a pretty clear preference for Sensing. Probably Se. 

You can maybe look at Se vs Ne like this:

Here the artist is creating a faithful representation of Kate Beckinsale as she is. Note the attention to sensory detail to pull this off. This isn't the impression of Kate it's her in graphite. Almost like a monochromatic photograph.









And here the (likely Ne) artist isn't even using the pencils for their intended purpose anymore but is now using them to make a somewhat creepy face.


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## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

Technik said:


> What would be an example of an Ne-centered piece about a pencil?


One that goes from 'pencil' but goes anywhere, even to chairs made of pencils even if such a chair might not be comfortable enough to work 

Pencils, pencils... and not a drop to drink or eat. Because that would be unpleasant, but pencils are overall pleasant because you can write all sorts of stuff with them and even if they break you can still just sharpen them and they can be erased if you got something wrong. They're good for building things, chairs is just the first step. The hexagonalish shape might be a good sturdy shape for making a rocket with, but if that doesn't go well either way there can be fire anyway, either by the rocket exploding or building a mini bonfire with a teepee of pencils once you've decided that there's more than enough of them out there for drawing purposes anyway and the rocket failing made you want to get revenge on them. If you broke a pencil without an eraser part and taped the pieces together the other way and sharpen each respective tip, you could have dual drawing powers to make all sorts of cool effects. It's cool when you can take the lead out of the pencil and use it to draw horizontally and make all sorts of fancy drawing effects that teachers think that you have to learn in their drawing class. See, the pencil is so cool like that that it has even survived pending extinction from the advent of the computer and keyboard. Pens get to stay very much around partly because all those forms usually require to use "blue or black ink" or some other regulatory nonsense. But pencils!....

If you thought something like "what the...?" when you read that, then I'm thinking you likely lean towards the more 'real' style that is Se


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## Technik (Dec 28, 2011)

LiquidLight said:


> An intuitive.


Touché. And I have a much finer appreciation for the first image you posted than the second. The second one just freaks me out. Not to offend anybody, but I really don't understand that kind of art. It's like...Jackson Pollock just splattered paint on canvas, but Thomas Kinkade and Norman Rockwell skillfully translate the beauty of life and nature to canvas.



ElectricSparkle said:


> One that goes from 'pencil' but goes anywhere, even to chairs made of pencils even if such a chair might not be comfortable enough to work
> 
> Pencils, pencils... and not a drop to drink or eat. Because that would be unpleasant, but pencils are overall pleasant because you can write all sorts of stuff with them and even if they break you can still just sharpen them and they can be erased if you got something wrong. They're good for building things, chairs is just the first step. The hexagonalish shape might be a good sturdy shape for making a rocket with, but if that doesn't go well either way there can be fire anyway, either by the rocket exploding or building a mini bonfire with a teepee of pencils once you've decided that there's more than enough of them out there for drawing purposes anyway and the rocket failing made you want to get revenge on them. If you broke a pencil without an eraser part and taped the pieces together the other way and sharpen each respective tip, you could have dual drawing powers to make all sorts of cool effects. It's cool when you can take the lead out of the pencil and use it to draw horizontally and make all sorts of fancy drawing effects that teachers think that you have to learn in their drawing class. See, the pencil is so cool like that that it has even survived pending extinction from the advent of the computer and keyboard. Pens get to stay very much around partly because all those forms usually require to use "blue or black ink" or some other regulatory nonsense. But pencils!....
> 
> If you thought something like "what the...?" when you read that, then I'm thinking you likely lean towards the more 'real' style that is Se


Se it is :laughing:


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

I'm very iNtuitive, but the test with pencils would have made me appear as a Sensor - I think the whole description of what 'iNtuitives' would do with pencils (making sculptures/abstract stuff) shows 'genius' traits rather than iNtuition - being completely on a different level.

Plus, pencil sketches are so much more powerful than most sculptures XP


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## Life.Is.A.Game (Nov 5, 2010)

Technik said:


> I'm still iffy on my MBTI type. I'm fairly certain it's IXTP -- some weird cross between INTP and ISTP, though it's more IsTP because I lean more to the practical side of ISTP.
> 
> From my understanding, the thing that separates INTP from ISTP are the aux/tert functions, which are inverted. Se/Ni for ISTP, and Ne/Si for INTP. I'm not completely clear on what Si _actually_ does.
> 
> ...


I'm not good with understanding the functions too well but my primary function is Ne and from the way you described all that....I don't see myself in that at all. I would most likely be standing/sitting there but thinking of something completely different. I barely would pay any attention to the wind or dogs barking, and if i did i would just be annoyed for disrupting my thoughts. 
Not sure if this is a Ne thing but this is me.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Pencils? I used to chew on my pencils all the time in high school. I liked the chewing, because they don't taste great. I don't prefer pencils, I like pens better. Pencils are better for math, though. Erasing pencil marks can be fun. I like making dirt disappear, it's also why I like windexing glass and sweeping the floor. 

I see not only sensing in my thoughts, but strong Fi (I like, I did, me me me me me me)....I would think an ENTP would be more likely to "invent" things with the pencil than ENFP, or no?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

laurie17 said:


> I'm very iNtuitive, but the test with pencils would have made me appear as a Sensor - I think the whole description of what 'iNtuitives' would do with pencils (making sculptures/abstract stuff) shows 'genius' traits rather than iNtuition - being completely on a different level.
> 
> Plus, pencil sketches are so much more powerful than most sculptures XP


No, that's Ne. Ne makes constant connections like that and is like "what if? what if?" 

That's not genius, it's just Ne.

You have Ni (apparently, according to you) and that's a different function. It's not going to look the same. 

That paragraph didn't look like genius to me either, it kind of annoyed me.

Maybe this is why INFJs like ENTPs and I don't particularly.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Technik said:


> Earlier tonight, I was standing outside enjoying the cool, windy night. I listened to the wind blowing through the trees, annoying dogs barking endlessly in the distance; I noticed the cool breeze flowing around me. I could see the silhouette of trees shaking from the wind. This is a function of Se, right? What about my recall of the scene? Is that Si?


This is Se. Notice you don't relate it to anything personal.



Technik said:


> It doesn't stop there. While I was listening to the dogs barking, I was trying to figure out where they were coming from, what it could be barking at. Perhaps he was barking at his own echo? As I heard the wind blowing through the trees, I accurately predicted I would soon feel the force of wind coming towards me from the south. Would that be Ne, wouldn't it? Making guesses, thinking about possibilities (the wind) and causes (the dogs), etc?


Looks like Ti analysis with Ni prediction. Ti-Ne analyzes concepts/ideas, Ti-Se analyzes what's going on currently.



Technik said:


> I know all functions can be utilized, and it's about preferences or primary use, but that would help with figuring out my MBTI type. I'm not an adrenaline junkie or thrill-seeker like the ISTP stereotypes and profiles, but the "academia" school of thought most INTP has irritates me (*you have a theory? great. I understand it just fine, and it's an interesting thought, but what can it actually do for us?*). I can tolerate theory if there's a reason for learning it, such as a personal interest that I think I could use in the future if not now, but most of the time I don't like to get bogged down in mathematical proofs of theoretical concepts...


ISTP.



Technik said:


> A pencil is an instrument used for writing. Despite being referred to as "lead" pencils, their core is actually made of graphite, a carbon-based material, which is used to make marks on a surface. The graphite core is surrounded by wood, usually shaped as a hexagon to prevent rolling. Most pencils have an eraser at one end, to make corrections easier and quicker. Because of the sharp point of a pencil, it can be used as an improvised weapon.


Se collection, Ti analysis.



Technik said:


> I see where you're going with this. Very sensing oriented, my answer; the only Ne 'possibility' I could think up is the improvised weapon gig, which is probably still more Se because of the tool-aspect. What would be an example of an Ne-centered piece about a pencil?


Ni.


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

fourtines said:


> No, that's Ne. Ne makes constant connections like that and is like "what if? what if?"
> 
> That's not genius, it's just Ne.
> 
> ...


The paragraph itself was saying that very, very few people would identify with the Ne description via the pencil test - of course, I may have missed something with it, but most Ne types I know in RL (ENFP and ENTP) tend to prefer what was described as Sensor qualities in that test (such as the pencil sketch over the sculpture). Ne does make connections from external factors but that doesn't mean it has to be over-the-top creative.
I'm also not quite sure why you commented on the paragraph being 'genius' or not. I wasn't going for that, I was trying to talk about iNtuition vs Sensing and being a genius, as both Ss and Ns are capable of genius traits.
I think you may have taken what I was saying the wrong way and, if so, I apologise.


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

Technik said:


> I'm still iffy on my MBTI type. I'm fairly certain it's IXTP -- some weird cross between INTP and ISTP, though it's more IsTP because I lean more to the practical side of ISTP.
> 
> From my understanding, the thing that separates INTP from ISTP are the aux/tert functions, which are inverted. Se/Ni for ISTP, and Ne/Si for INTP. I'm not completely clear on what Si _actually_ does.
> 
> ...


The function descriptions imply that you have to be Se to enjoy being in the moment. I don't believe that is the case. Maybe Se is like that all the time, but I could sit back and just enjoy the wind, or rain, snow whatever. It takes some effort to shut everything else down and do it, but it can be done. What you described with trying to figure out the barking and what not could be Ne. I would need more information.


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## Zerosum (Jul 17, 2011)

lol this makes me laugh.. MB is such a fantastic tool, but the absolutist view is very annoying, you have both intuition and sensing abilities.. Personally I look at the crazy painting as well and think wtf.. I didn't read through either pencil description, because they were both boring.. Such a very dry question..

I have been actually contemplating this question myself, I think perhaps the way you ask the question, can be more informative than anyones response. For instance, I would come up with these wild theories why I was not an intuitive.. I would think "Maybe im actually a sensor dominate, viewing the world through an intuitive prism". "maybe I only really like useful theories as well, everything I find fascinating has a practical application in some situation.. (economic theory, philosophy, behavioural science)". I also hate Maths.. I hate it because it is so dry and boring, you throw a lot of numbers my way.. The brain just shuts down.. I find statistics interesting, but I find algebra and scientific truths rather boring.. That being said.. I find physics and chemistry have interesting concepts!" The thing is though.. Thats all sweet!! I work on generalities, I hate it when someone presents me with "This is the facts!" because it eliminates my freedom to move within an idea... Im stopping now, because im rambling but everything I explained.. Is pretty Ne lol. If you over think things, have these "idea flashes" that seemingly come from no where and each idea excites you more and more, You are probably Ne.. To me, Solving a problem using Ne is similar to solving a jigsaw puzzle.. You are throw tons of ideas and possible solutions "pieces of the puzzle" and all you need to do is arrange them... Which I do by using Ti!

So please ignore the crazyness.. @laurie17 and I share a thing in come, I would describe a literal objective in its literal terms.. Mostly because I will focus on it as it is, rather than what it means.. Sure what it means would flash over my mind, but that was never the question.. You asked me to describe a pencil and id say "pencil is simply a led based instrument primary used for writing / sketching".. I find the insinuation that intuitive's are un focused crazies to be quite offensive and the main reason I have such a hard time taring myself with the brush, because I would say my mind is quite methodical.. I get bombarded with shite, but I sift through and end up with sound ideas at the end of the process.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

LiquidLight said:


> An intuitive.
> 
> I think you have a pretty clear preference for Sensing. Probably Se.
> 
> ...


My Ne is open minded and respects the creativity of each of the artist. However I like the first one better because she looks hotter.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Yeah, I never thought art had much, if any bearing on type, since I know some very abstract ISFP artists and some very concrete INFP artists (one INFP artist and friend of mine admitted in her AP art "about the artist" bio that she loves the beauty of detail and finds it amazing to capture all of the minute detail that makes up the world and feels meaningful to her. It sounds like she engages tert. Si a ton when drawing.) I draw photorealistic drawings in which I engage a ton of inferior Se (lol, so much for it being inferior if you see my artwork ;P ) I never cared much for abstract art in general. Capturing reality accurately seems so much more impressive to me. Also, some people might be very abstract or concrete just because they suck at certain styles. Who knows.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Yeah, I never thought art had much, if any bearing on type, since I know some very abstract ISFP artists and some very concrete INFP artists (one INFP artist and friend of mine admitted in her AP art "about the artist" bio that she loves the beauty of detail and finds it amazing to capture all of the minute detail that makes up the world and feels meaningful to her. It sounds like she engages tert. Si a ton when drawing.) I draw photorealistic drawings in which I engage a ton of inferior Se (lol, so much for it being inferior if you see my artwork ;P ) I never cared much for abstract art in general. Capturing reality accurately seems so much more impressive to me. Also, some people might be very abstract or concrete just because they suck at certain styles. Who knows.


I used to paint, and usually preferred realistic artwork to abstract. However, I would almost always paint abstracts myself because I couldn't deal with the detail work.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I've seen S types who aren't particularly talented with highly detailed work at all, while I've seen Ns who are (I mean, after all, isn't highly detailed artwork more difficult to do well to begin with than more abstract, imprecise work, such as that used in cartoon animation often (they have to draw quickly to finish fast enough)...


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I've seen S types who aren't particularly talented with highly detailed work at all, while I've seen Ns who are (I mean, after all, isn't highly detailed artwork more difficult to do well to begin with than more abstract, imprecise work, such as that used in cartoon animation often (they have to draw quickly to finish fast enough)...


I could do detail work, but most of the time I would get bored with my current project and move onto the next.


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## Agent Blackout (Mar 1, 2012)

Technik said:


> I'm still iffy on my MBTI type. I'm fairly certain it's IXTP -- some weird cross between INTP and ISTP, though it's more IsTP because I lean more to the practical side of ISTP.
> 
> From my understanding, the thing that separates INTP from ISTP are the aux/tert functions, which are inverted. Se/Ni for ISTP, and Ne/Si for INTP. I'm not completely clear on what Si _actually_ does.
> 
> ...


Of course, this is just my own view of it, lol Can't speak for the other INTP's.
Note that might help:
Si = body first, environment second
Se = environment first, body second

As an INTP, I'm acutely aware of what goes on with my body. I feel "detached" if I'm not.

In addition, see if the descriptions in this thread sound like anything you experience. Otherwise, you could deduce Se.
http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/90072-you-know-youre-using-si-when.html


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## Kyrielle (Mar 12, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I've seen S types who aren't particularly talented with highly detailed work at all, while I've seen Ns who are (I mean, after all, isn't highly detailed artwork more difficult to do well to begin with than more abstract, imprecise work, such as that used in cartoon animation often (they have to draw quickly to finish fast enough)...


Actually, believe it or not, abstract work is often harder to do than detailed work (for me anyway). The less you do, the more perfect and on the dot you have to be with your drawing. Because you are going in a more abstract manner, it is far more important to make sure that EVERY MARK YOU MAKE contributes to the overall message you are sending. If one mark is off, then the message gets muddled and confused. This is especially true in animation where you need to be able to draw the character correctly and accurately for every single frame every single time. If you don't then there's a lot of weird jumping and twitching going on in the animation.

I've played with both ends of the spectrum. And while I thoroughly enjoy the act of transcribing every detail of the object in front of me...and while I enjoy using abstract shapes to create messages, I prefer the middle of the road--eliminating some detail in favor of a more simplified image that conveys the message while maintaining a basis in reality.



And in an effort to stay on topic...

I think you're using Se @Technik backed up by Ti and Ni. Ti is going to want to sort and file away all that information you're taking in with Se. It's going to want to build a structure around what Se takes in and pick it apart, dissect it, then build it into a model, while Ni will want to synthesize that information and summarize it into a singular concept or symbol or story. So you have a lot of information coming in from the outside world because you are more present in reality (Se), meanwhile you are making models and organizing all that information into structures so it makes sense to you (Ti), and those structures are summarized and connected with a meaning (Ni).

Though in your case, structures will usually take precedence over what you're taking in. You're going to spend more time dissecting and rebuilding information, and in the process of building, you'll reach out for more external experiences to further define that internal structure. It's like building a machine, and then realizing you're out of screws, so you go out and get some more.


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## pmj85 (Jul 31, 2010)

Out of interest, which function would cause the user to read "Describe a pencil", cringe / recoil in vague distress and immediately after the initial 'shock' feel infuriated at the idea. "Why? It's a pencil - you can draw things with it, WHO CARES OH MY LORD THERE'S A WHOLE UNIVERSE OUT THERE ARRRRRGGGHHH THE PAIIIIIN!"

Only, that was my reaction. It might just mean I'm a complete tit, but I'm intrigued 

@OP - my closest friend is an ISTP. He's borderline genius. Literally.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

My first reaction to seeing the "pencil question" in order to determine what functions you use: 

I so know where this is heading. 

Second reaction: Now I wanna try. XD Hehe. Now I really do have to try. O_O Honestly, all I can say is I use the pencil to write things. And after that, my brain thinks of all the things I could write with it. Or I could use it as a percussive instrument. Or I could chew it...Or I could put the pencil behind my ear, if I could figure out how. That has always mystified me... 

Ohwait. I was supposed to be describing the pencil? #_#

Anyway, OP, you seem like a Sensing type to me. And you seem to use a lot of Se.


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