# INTP - 4w5



## Turi

Dare said:


> And this is the strict order for you 24/7? Even when you're looking into someone's eyes and telling them you love them?


Of course it's not 24/7, we all shift and change - it is however my default preferences most of the time, which means most of the time I'm preferring Thinking over Feeling which means most of the time I am not aligned with Type 4 on the Enneagram.

It's the same for everyone else who prefers Thinking in MBTI.
If that's your default preference, then you're not a Type 4.



> Indeed I also default to that order. Give me a lazy Sunday and I'll Ni/Te away with book in hand. And since Ni is my dominant function, it always seems 'on'. But I spend an enormous amount of time in Te 'work mode' during the week. And I love relaxing into Fi/Se in the evenings (dance/take a bath, turn off the thinking). I enjoy feeling late at night -- I lean into it. During the day I have no patience for feelings.


I relate to this - I'm a musician, I've clearly got a massive 'feeler' side to me, but this is not 'F' in MBTI - it's just emotions/feelings in general, unrelated to 'F'.
I don't believe in 'Te' etc for INTJs.



> So, for me, I am INTJ but I can look ENTJish sometimes and even ISFPish at others. That doesn't make me a mistype, it means I have well developed lower functions. In other words, I can do more. I see an INTX with well developed feeling the same way -- capable of more, not automatically a mistype. If they still make decisions based on thinking, they are, in fact, a thinker.


No, they're not automatically a mistype - I'll tell you what _is_, though - imagine an 'INTJ' that prefers that ISFP mode most of the time, and resonates with Type 4.
Well, then they're mistyped as an INTJ.
This is about _preferences_, and if you prefer INTJ, you must prefer T, which means most of the time your values and way of getting through life conflicts with most of what makes a Type 4, a Type 4.



> It's obviously not that simple or there wouldn't be so many INTXs identifying this way. E4s like to feel, they feel deeply. This doesn't speak to how they will make decisions. They aren't placing "F above T" 24/7 in all ways. Therefore it is possible to be both e4 and a mbti thinker. In INTJs it's very easy to imagine enneagram type getting set young (early childhood) and their Te developing later (teen years). The problem is you see e4s who enjoy feeling/feel deeply and immediately associate them with what a feeler is in mbti. They are different things.


I vehemently disagree, and I have to ask - if someone _prefers _to feel, and feel deeply - what exactly are they basing their decisions on?

From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".


Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
Naturally critique new ideas.
Objectively analyze pros and cons.
Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.

_Maybe it's just me _- but that ain't describing anything remotely similar to an E4 core.
4 wing, I can accept. 4 core, no, not an MBTI Thinker.


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## mistakenforstranger

Turi said:


> From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".
> 
> 
> Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
> Naturally critique new ideas.
> Objectively analyze pros and cons.
> Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.
> 
> _Maybe it's just me _- but that ain't describing anything remotely similar to an E4 core.
> 4 wing, I can accept. 4 core, no, not an MBTI Thinker.


I also agree with what you're saying that there's a contradiction, and I don't think any MBTI/Enneagram combination is possible, despite what many want to believe. Perhaps an INTP 4w5 isn't the most outrageous combination (INTP 4w3 would be a lot more incompatible), but whenever I see someone saying IxxJ 7s are possible, then I can't help but think they're mistyped in at least one of the systems. I mean, what ISFJ, ISTJ, INFJ, or INTJ fits this description? 



> Type Seven in Brief
> 
> Sevens are extroverted, optimistic, versatile, and spontaneous. Playful, high-spirited, and practical, they can also misapply their many talents, becoming over-extended, scattered, and undisciplined. They constantly seek new and exciting experiences, but can become distracted and exhausted by staying on the go. They typically have problems with impatience and impulsiveness.


Which then always leads to the person seeing the problem with the description (usually accompanied by, OMG! So many stereotypes! :shocked, while they try to rewrite and expand the system so much to make an exception for themselves, while also telling others on the forum how it's possible to be Type X with different qualities than that type, rather than considering that maybe they've mistyped themselves. The funny thing is that usually in all the cases I've seen where people try to say they're an exception to the rule to the fundamental characteristics of the type, they end up typing as a different type later on, so all that talk about how they were a different kind of Type X, all flies out the window. I'm not saying that about people in this thread, but I have seen this play out time and time again on this forum, and it's rather absurd, when it would be so much easier (and less confusing to others) to consider a different type combination.

FWIW, Riso-Hudson correlated Type 5 with Ti, and Type 4 with Ni. I can't find the exact passage online, but they mention it here:



> Ones and Fives both correspond to Jungian thinking types–the One to the extroverted thinking type (PT, 381-82) and the Five to the introverted thinking type, or to what we suggest might better be termed the "subjective" thinking type (PT, 177-78)


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## Dare

Turi said:


> I relate to this - I'm a musician, I've clearly got a massive 'feeler' side to me, but this is not 'F' in MBTI - it's just emotions/feelings in general, unrelated to 'F'.


This is exactly what I'm saying: 'F' in MBTI =/= emotions/feelings in general. And identifying as e4 is a third thing entirely, defined on the _significance_ of feelings. Of course, healthy e4s "engage in reality with meaningful action" (Riso) -- it's only the less than healthy e4s that spend significant amounts of time in their imagination/feelings.



> I vehemently disagree, and I have to ask - if someone _prefers _to feel, and feel deeply - what exactly are they basing their decisions on?


Their thinking if they're a thinker -- by definition. It makes no sense that you experience what it's like to be a "massive feeler" within a MBTI thinker yourself and deny that possibility for someone else. I'm sure you enjoy cultivating your feelings at times with music --e4s do this and a few other things with feelings. But making decisions with them isn't _necessarily_ one of them. 

There is nothing to preclude INTXs from being e4 even if INFX e4 and INTX e5 is more common.


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## Turi

Dare said:


> Their thinking if they're a thinker -- by definition. It makes no sense that you experience what it's like to be a "massive feeler" within a MBTI thinker yourself and deny that possibility for someone else. I'm sure you enjoy cultivating your feelings at times with music --e4s do this and a few other things with feelings. But making decisions with them isn't _necessarily_ one of them.
> 
> There is nothing to preclude INTXs from being e4 even if INFX e4 and INTX e5 is more common.


I'm not denying anybody anything.


I don't really want to waste any more time on this, so I'll just leave this quote here and hope that people who read this post can connect the dots themselves - from _The Complete Enneagram_ by Beatrice Chestnut.



> The natural strengths of Type Fours include their large capacity for emotional sensitivity and depth, their ability to sense what is going on between people on the emotional level, their natural feel for aesthetics and creativity, and their idealistic and romantic sensibility.
> 
> Relatively unafraid of intense feelings, Fours value the expression of authentic emotion and can support others with great care, respect, and sensitivity when they are experiencing painful emotions.
> 
> Fours are highly empathic and can see the beauty and power in painful feelings that other types habitually avoid.
> Fours’ “superpower” is that they are naturally emotionally intuitive.


This is clearly at odds with virtually any Thinker descriptor.


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## ukulele

Turi said:


> No, they're not automatically a mistype - I'll tell you what _is_, though - imagine an 'INTJ' that prefers that ISFP mode most of the time, and resonates with Type 4.
> Well, then they're mistyped as an INTJ.
> This is about _preferences_, and if you prefer INTJ, you must prefer T, which means most of the time your values and way of getting through life conflicts with most of what makes a Type 4, a Type 4.





> I vehemently disagree, and I have to ask - if someone _prefers _to feel, and feel deeply - what exactly are they basing their decisions on?
> 
> From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".
> 
> 
> Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
> Naturally critique new ideas.
> Objectively analyze pros and cons.
> Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.


This is funny. I am an INTJ, 4w5, while I admit I'm not an enneagram expert I have no doubt I was not mistyped. 
The fact that I feel deeply (which I do, I indulge in my emotions a lot) doesn't change the order of my cognitive functions. I still use Ni-Te-Fi-Se, in that order, even if I appear to be softer, more empathetic than a standard cold blooded INTJ. It's not a preference, it's a default state. 

e4 is what motivates me, what gives me fulfilment, I want to be aware and in control of my emotions, not to make decisions with them. My strong values are what pushes Te, not something that overtakes it. Not when I'm healthy.



> "Profoundly creative, expressing the personal and the universal, possibly in a work of art. Inspired, self-renewing and regenerating: able to transform all their experiences into something valuable: self-creative.individualistic, "true to self." Self-revealing, emotionally honest, humane. "


This is what I want to achieve through Ni-Te-Fi-Se. It's nothing I can't do while being a "Thinker". 
Think of an architect who uses his big vision (Ni) to prepare a project (Te) which allows him to express his values (Fi) through beauty (Se). It's what an INTJ e4 is. 


Since it's focused on "self" maybe there's some correlation with introverted cognitive functions? And if so I see how it's Ni, Fi kind of thing, and not Ti Si.



Turi said:


> The natural strengths of Type Fours include their large capacity for emotional sensitivity and depth, their ability to sense what is going on between people on the emotional level, their natural feel for aesthetics and creativity, and their idealistic and romantic sensibility.
> 
> Relatively unafraid of intense feelings, Fours value the expression of authentic emotion and can support others with great care, respect, and sensitivity when they are experiencing painful emotions.
> 
> Fours are highly empathic and can see the beauty and power in painful feelings that other types habitually avoid.
> Fours’ “superpower” is that they are naturally emotionally intuitive.


I identify. It still has nothing to do with using feelings as a value judgement. I think the problem here is that you confuse emotions, being emotionally aware thus feeling intensely and understanding emotions with using FEELINGS as a value judgement function. 
The emotional depth I have, the understanding of emotions (mine and others) I have is made through an objective analyse (Ni+Te) of my own intense emotional states. I just don't run away from them, it's what interests me.


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## Turi

ukulele said:


> This is funny. I am an INTJ, 4w5, while I admit I'm not an enneagram expert I have no doubt I was not mistyped.
> The fact that I feel deeply (which I do, I indulge in my emotions a lot) doesn't change the order of my cognitive functions. I still use Ni-Te-Fi-Se, in that order, even if I appear to be softer, more empathetic than a standard cold blooded INTJ. It's not a preference, it's a default state.
> 
> e4 is what motivates me, what gives me fulfilment, I want to be aware and in control of my emotions, not to make decisions with them. My strong values are what pushes Te, not something that overtakes it. Not when I'm healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I want to achieve through Ni-Te-Fi-Se. It's nothing I can't do while being a "Thinker".
> Think of an architect who uses his big vision (Ni) to prepare a project (Te) which allows him to express his values (Fi) through beauty (Se). It's what an INTJ e4 is.
> 
> 
> Since it's focused on "self" maybe there's some correlation with introverted cognitive functions? And if so I see how it's Ni, Fi kind of thing, and not Ti Si.


For me to buy most of the above, I have to buy the Harold Grant cognitive function stack - which I don't, so I won't comment on this.




> I identify. It still has nothing to do with using feelings as a value judgement. I think the problem here is that you confuse emotions, being emotionally aware thus feeling intensely and understanding emotions with using FEELINGS as a value judgement function.
> The emotional depth I have, the understanding of emotions (mine and others) I have is made through an objective analyse (Ni+Te) of my own intense emotional states. I just don't run away from them, it's what interests me.


I am definitely _not _confusing emotions with MBTI F, if you'd read my posts you would understand that - ironically, you confuse the two in the same sentence you accuse _me _of confusing the two.

This has run its course for me, I don't see value in people using themselves to somehow support their argument.
Simple fact is, Thinking contradicts Enneagram Type 4 in so many ways, that the two are directly opposed.


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## ukulele

"I don't have enough knowledge so your reasoning is invalid" basically.


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## Turi

ukulele said:


> "I don't have enough knowledge so your reasoning is invalid" basically.


You used a self-referential argument and mentioned the Harold Grant cognitive function stack.
Ain't nobody got tahme fo' dat.


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## ukulele

Turi said:


> You used a self-referential argument and mentioned the Harold Grant cognitive function stack.
> Ain't nobody got tahme fo' dat.


What I said...

But you could also explain how what you quoted 


> The natural strengths of Type Fours include their large capacity for emotional sensitivity and depth, their ability to sense what is going on between people on the emotional level, their natural feel for aesthetics and creativity, and their idealistic and romantic sensibility.
> 
> Relatively unafraid of intense feelings, Fours value the expression of authentic emotion and can support others with great care, respect, and sensitivity when they are experiencing painful emotions.
> 
> Fours are highly empathic and can see the beauty and power in painful feelings that other types habitually avoid.
> Fours’ “superpower” is that they are naturally emotionally intuitive.


is a contradiction to this


> From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".
> 
> Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
> Naturally critique new ideas.
> Objectively analyze pros and cons.
> Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.


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## Turi

ukulele said:


> What I said...
> 
> But you could also explain how what you quoted
> 
> is a contradiction to this


Use your intuition, connect the dots.

MBTI Thinkers are not 'highly empathic' their superpower is _not _being 'emotionally intuitive', they do _not _value 'authentic emotion' - rather, they shy away from emotion - and literally suppress their own when making decisions - their natural strength is _not _their 'emotional sensitivity'.
Sensing what is going on between people on an emotional level is _not _a trait of MBTI T types.

Your understanding of your emotions through what you refer to as 'Ni-Te' - this objective analysis of your emotional states - tells me you're not an Enneagram type 4. You see emotions as a tool, something to analyse. This tells me that you are actually _detached _from emotions.

Healthy Type 4s are "very personal, revealing and communicating in their feelings in ways that enable others to get in touch with their own emotions" - from Riso and Hudsons "_Using The Enneagram For Self-Development_".
Sorry - does this sound like something an INTJ strives for? To be personal? Revealing? Communicating their feelings?

Type 4's are expressive. Thinkers are renown for being expressionless.

I'm mystified that I even have to go through all of this.
MBTI Thinking and a core Type 4 Enneagram conflict with each other. imo.


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## Ode to Dream

Turi said:


> Use your intuition, connect the dots.
> 
> MBTI Thinkers are not 'highly empathic' their superpower is _not _being 'emotionally intuitive', they do _not _value 'authentic emotion' - rather, they shy away from emotion - and literally suppress their own when making decisions - their natural strength is _not _their 'emotional sensitivity'.
> Sensing what is going on between people on an emotional level is _not _a trait of MBTI T types.
> 
> Your understanding of your emotions through what you refer to as 'Ni-Te' - this objective analysis of your emotional states - tells me you're not an Enneagram type 4. You see emotions as a tool, something to analyse. This tells me that you are actually _detached _from emotions.
> 
> Healthy Type 4s are "very personal, revealing and communicating in their feelings in ways that enable others to get in touch with their own emotions" - from Riso and Hudsons "_Using The Enneagram For Self-Development_".
> Sorry - does this sound like something an INTJ strives for? To be personal? Revealing? Communicating their feelings?
> 
> Type 4's are expressive. Thinkers are renown for being expressionless.
> 
> I'm mystified that I even have to go through all of this.
> MBTI Thinking and a core Type 4 Enneagram conflict with each other. imo.


That's what an immature thinker would do. Are you going to tell me that thinkers don't feel and "shy away from their emotions"? You can even go to the main MBTI's page and you will found that "F" & "T" is for decision making. A thinker puts their emotion aside to make decisions, it doesn't matter if you're sensitive or if you're not. You put them aside.

Not sure how being very personal, revealing and communicating can obstruct you from putting your emotions aside to make a decision, but alright. You're focusing your statements on stereotypes. An INTJ can strive for that, perhaps not with everyone but to those he/she trust. That you don't feel that way doesn't mean another INTJ can, you can't expect all INTJs to act a certain way.

There are more or less 7.6 billion people on the world, none is exactly the same, because XXXX type *tend* to do something, doesn't mind everyone in that type is going to.

You can have your opinion, there is no doubt in that but you want to change ours and to indulge that it is impossible, even though if you take time to research you can find it does.

*MBTI "T" or "F" deals more with how you prefer to make decisions while Enneagram deals with your underlying motivations.*


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## Sn0wy

I'm an intp 4w5, sometimes it feels like two souls living in one body.


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## Myszabrum

I'm also INTP 4w5. I've repeated both tests after a few years, just to be sure. These are just two sides of my personality. E.g. I'm deeply romantic, but noone really knows about it. In everyday life I prefer to use logic and reason. I like to feel different than everybody else, but I'm certainly not a drama queen and I value objectivity. I love gaining knowledge and creating systems, I live mainly in my head, but the way I look is very important to me. Etc, etc... English is not my first language, so it's difficult for me to write about certain subtleties, but I certainly feel like both type descriptions fit me to a large extent.


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## PathSeeker

There is nothing wrong with being a 4w5 INTP. I myself am a 5w4.


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## CineRiley23

Fuliginouswolf said:


> Thats my enneagram and MBTI type, i've read that this type is rare- non existent but i don't know i've done like a lot of MBTI test but still register with all of them saying I'm INTP. I'm definitely sure i'm a 4w5 as all of 4 is me and only some is 5. I've been in so much conflict this last few months as i finished high school and i had to choose a career path cause i had no idea what i wanted to do with my life, growing up with strict african parents my choices for "viable" careers were limited and self expression too. I first went into college choosing to do Accounting, only to dropout in semester two because I realised it was nothing interesting or something i had no interest in, i only chose it for the money they make rather than happiness. I'm planning on returning to college to do Multimedia/Creative Digital Media cause there's a big creative aspect to it and i feel like i have some good ideas to bring out in terms of filming etc. I just recently join this to see peoples opinions or advice on how to handle these things or about myself because i've hit a depression run with a lot of anxiety for almost a year now, doctor prescribed me lexapro cause i guess i'm still young only recently turning 19. I've been going Counselling and I've gotten better a lil bit so far.


As a fellow INTP and 4w5 WITH a career as a video editor, absolutely do it. It is a fantastic creative outlet and a field that is constantly changing and updating and there are always areas to improve upon! I love my job and I love what I can do with the medium. 

I started out as a computer science major and dropped out my first semester because I realized it wasn't what I wanted to do, like you. I came back to school for a television and digital media program, got an internship, received my bachelor's and am now working at the same company I interned with, 3 years later. =)


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## planetsector9

Just joined to post this I found that was relevant to this thread Misidentifying 4 and 5 — The Enneagram Institute

One interesting point-


> Some Fives have learned that Fours are more feeling-oriented, and Fives are more intellectual, and seeing that they have deep feelings presume that they must be Fours. (This is especially true with female Fives.) Also, Fives are often portrayed as scientists or engineers while Fours are creative artists.


Now here is where things really started to click for me, in terms of relating here only to the 5 descriptions.


> Their artistic work tends to be autobiographical, based on their families, on relationships, past or unrequited, and on the content of their subjective experience. (Four)
> Their feelings tend to fuel their thoughts and their imagination, leading them to more abstract or fantastic forms of creative expression. Their work is less autobiographical, and more often portrays their vision of reality. (Five)
> Fives tend to be more experimental and outlandish in their artwork.
> Fours tend to focus on their disappointments in love and with their childhoods and their attendant pain. Fives tend to focus on inner emptiness and feelings of meaninglessness. Fives are more driven to penetrate the surface of things to understand, Fours to get in touch with feelings and cathartically express them


Still even after reading this I can find I relate to a lot of the 4 and a lot of the 5, but then an INTP 5w4 is a possibility as well. Here are the links to both of those if you wanna compare-





Type Four — The Enneagram Institute







www.enneagraminstitute.com









Type Five — The Enneagram Institute







www.enneagraminstitute.com


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## MeetraSurik

It has been a long time since this was last discussed, however I see that there is a major component that is missing from either side of the analysis/debate; That is, Trauma, defined as "Events that cause overwhelming amounts of stress that exceed the person's ability to cope or integrate the emotions involved, eventually leading to serious, long-term negative consequences".

Whilst one can argue that a core 4 cannot be an INTP, I would argue that a 4 with some sort of trauma definitely can. Whether it be an emotional stress caused by negative parenting, negligence, abuse, or greater, it can alter the way a child sees the world, and more importantly, copes with it, to the extent of altering the way the core type deals with emotions and thus altering the way it presents itself. The most important part of Enneagram is the core wounds in my opinion, because this is what shapes a person's perception and coping strategies.

So imagine if you will, a child that is growing up to be a 4 because the parents don't validate their being, because the parents have exceedingly high standards that leave the child feeling it is never good enough, because the parents are so emotionally disconnected from the child that the child develops it's own emotional world to escape to so it can feel love and accepted. Do you not think that a child growing under such conditions could likely develop an emotional disconnect from reality and from itself, much like the INTP does? Now, let's say we mix in a highly traumatic event that shakes up their psyche, like witnessing a death per say. I've read that victims of traumatic events can develop a disconnect from emotions (no matter what type), because emotions feel dangerous after the traumatic event, because their "fight" impulse is so strong that they disconnect in order to function. No. Matter. What. Type.
(I'd recommend reading "The Body Keeps the Score" and any research by the author Bessel Van Der Kolk as he is an authority on the subject of trauma). So just with this information I would think it is silly to say that a 4 simply cannot be an INTP. That is of course leaving out the wings, which are such important factors being that 5 is one of them.

Now, if we are to consider emotions as what they are: Chemical release in our body triggered to signal to us a need that must be met. One could argue that the only way that emotions would get in the way of our thinking processes, would be if there was a chemical imbalance. i.e. faulty dopamine release system, drug abuse, physical trauma. None of which have anything to do with a specific personality type. Also, I would argue that someone who is very self aware like a 4 could know those emotions so well that they can control them better than others, and allow for a more objective approach, just as well as they could drown in them.

I would say that just because a 4 can feel emotions very deeply, it doesn't mean they prefer it or can't control it. The level of repression they grew up with, as well as emotional mirroring as a child, and how much they were taught to recognize and/or deal with emotions or recognize and fulfill their needs, all plays a huge part in how much they can/will let themselves feel.

The psyche is not as black and white as many of you think; The more you know, the less that is certain. As much as we have studies, scientific or not, everything we know is nothing more than patterns. To say that something is impossible within a system that is built on pattern-recognition is illogical, the most one could say is "improbable", but statistically speaking within any pattern-recognition system there will always be a probability no matter how small.


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## HolyMoony

Manuscript said:


> When you have two withdrawn types that are wings of each other, it's difficult to tell them apart. I think both sides of the 4/5 line can be afraid that they are too different from the rest of society and can't cope with a normal life, but have different reasons and emphases for that outlook.
> 
> I think 5w4 makes sense for both INTPs and INFPs because Ti and Fi are both useful to form a unique niche or worldview. What makes INTP and 4w5 difficult to square with each other is the lack of Fi. Let's say you had an INTP that felt lost, broken and discarded, and wanted their life to be unique and meaningful. They get their Ti-Ne spinning creative ideas and concepts in order to form their personal identity. Fe is both extraverted and the weakest function, so it can supply a little quirky self-expression, and become depressed over the INTP's lack of meaningful relationships, but its help is limited. So, this is somebody who forms a personal identity by identifying with creative ideas, not deep feelings and sentiments, and struggles with emotional expression. Doesn't that make them a 5w4 instead of a 4w5? How could you tell the two apart?


Wait I identify with my creative ideas, am I mistyped and am I actually INTP 5w4?


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