# NT women - opinions, experiences?



## Mantis (Feb 7, 2010)

is it just me, or are they like the worst-viewed category in society? I mean, without including the outlaws.

Maybe it's just Eastern Europe, or something, but from what I notice, a woman who is a feather-head who gets easy attention from men is better seen and more respected than a woman who dedicates most of her time to study.


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## analytik (May 23, 2010)

Heh. Depends. Do you have a particular social group in mind? It almost sounds like you're talking about bar scene, where, quite naturally, men pick the path of least resistance. 

Do you have a particular example in mind?


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## Mantis (Feb 7, 2010)

a bar scene? lol. and why would NTs be the path of most resistance? 

I'm just saying in society, in general, from what I've noticed.I'm not even referring to jobs or physical appearance, just personality..a brainy, pensive woman is seen almost always as "damaged goods", whereas a woman who is openly emotional-despite making little sense at times, and even acting bitchy/aggressive is seen as "normal"..look at famous people. 

A particular example..ok, just think JK Rowling vs. dunno... Angelina Jolie. JK Rowling is not only a billionaire in British pounds, but a friggin genius for creating Harry Potter.
Or, better yet, think Meryl Streep -the most Oscar nominations ever, amazing actress, but brainy..- vs Angelina Jolie, emotional fire-bomb and well, more beautiful.


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## analytik (May 23, 2010)

I've had several very smart female friends (both INTP and others) who said that men feel threatened by smart women. I know I'm going for the worst-case scenario / stereotype here, but if a guy wants to get laid quickly, he will choose the woman that's more passionate than smart. Applying The Ladder Theory, this affects all relationships in a way.

As for the "damaged goods", this might have to do with your country of origin - assuming you're from Ukraine or a similar place, your country's top export are brides - a profitable, legal business. Women are stereotyped into housewives, emotional beings, accessories, etc. MBTI statistics confirm this - the last time I checked, in most countries, 2/3 of women were F and 2/3 of men were T.

Once again, associated with that is the trauma of women being smarted than men. Men, who have the social status of leaders, initiators of dating, heads of their families - would be most probably intimidated by a smarter, or even equally smart woman.

As for the celebrities, I couldn't give a damn about either one; and even if I would, we actually know too little about their respective challenges and factors that came into play in their success. Also, it's pretty hard to measure and compare their success, as there is no clear metric for that.


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## Mantis (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm from Romania-pretty much same level of life quality as the Ukraine, but we're softer, being of Latin origin and all.,I think Ukraine is no 1 in Europe for domestic abuse.

I think it's definitely true that mentalities here are even worse than in the "western world", though I think Europe is still overall more misogynistic. Or shall we say, more "traditionalist"? 

I have no idea what the US is like, though, since I've never been there.

I know what you mean about passionate. I think women would be exactly the same if it weren't for "physical issues"-like the fact that we're smaller, more vulnerable, and need to feel like we can trust a guy before getting to bed with him.
But I don't just mean personal preference,it's social standards in general.

I mean, NT men might not have it really easy in society either-especially the introverts, but they are still highly regarded when they make it big in their profession.
Though I guess it might be just as bad for NF men as it is for NT women.:mellow:


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

pensiveness and studiousness is an innate NT quality? That's the first i've heard that. 

i have yet to meet these men en masse who are intimidated by smart women. of course there are guys out there with low self esteem who get intimidated. i think many of the women who complain about that stuff are women who tend to have other issues and are assuming that guys don't like them because they're too smart or too pretty or whatever they tell themselves to feel better and not have to admit that it's because they come off as jerks.

i've never had a problem getting dates when i wanted them and i never changed my personality to do it. maybe i somehow attract the guys who aren't intimidated by a feisty, sassy woman? the culture you're in could also play a part. i'm an american by nationality and mainly southern US-caribbean by culture where somehow women are borderline ball breakers but yet somehow we still come off looking sweet as pie. somehow we're able to coating our bitchiness so that it ends up tasting like sugar instead of vinegar :crazy:


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## Mantis (Feb 7, 2010)

lol. women come off as jerks? 

Well yes, pensiveness is a pretty typical NT personality trait, as far as I can tell.

I don't see why you two focus on "dating". I didn't say anything about dating or one's ability to attract the opposite sex.
I just mentioned that as an example-that women who act all giggly and frivolous, and seem to live mostly for relationships are seen as more "normal" and of a healthier attitude than other who are, say, spending most of their time in their theories and patterns. 
I mean the general impressions on rational women in society- not just the way men see them, but the way other women see them, as well.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Because guys are hardwired to be attracted to women who look like they will have sex with them and who also look like they can get pregnant easily (0.7 waist-to-hip ratio). How smart a girl is apparently did not factor as heavily in evolutionary sense into how likely the guy is to pass on his genes. So they look at women who flaunt these characteristics.

Also remember that men are not as good with long-term planning as women are. They cannot extrapolate the consequences of their actions as well as we can, especially when sex is involved in any shape or form. Here is an example I had the opportunity to observe over the past few years: 

Guy goes to a music concert where his buddies introduce him to some girls. One of those girls he starts dating. He doesn't really like her but wants sex and she is there. So they have sex and she gets pregnant. After some coercion from his and her families and society in general, they get married. The marriage starts off OK. There is a big party, like ones shown on TV. Parents are happy, friends are there, etc. But in day-to-day life they don't see things the same, don't come to understanding and start fighting more and more often. Finally the girl divorces him, takes the baby and a good portion of his paycheck and leaves. So now they meet each other in court. This was 3 years into the future from the moment that he met her and she allowed him to sleep with her. Did he think this is going to end up this way when he was pursuing a woman who was there to meet his need for some dating and sex? Did he think about her personality? Did he evaluate how logical or emotionally smart she is and how good of a match they'd make? Did he give value to her as a person? Evidence shows that no, his male brain was wholly consumed by thoughts of sex he was going to get. She meanwhile was thinking about what a good catch he is and I'm pretty sure she had wedding bells ringing in her head when she met him. The end.


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

Mantis said:


> lol. women come off as jerks?


definitely. women can be just as catty, rude, dismissive, narcisstic, egocentrical, etc as men. i can't think of many people - even guys - who'd want to put up with that sh*t for longer than 20 minutes




> Well yes, pensiveness is a pretty typical NT personality trait, as far as I can tell.


 i think this is one of those stereotypes that people with very limited knowledge of MBTI tend to push out. NTs don't have the market cornered on being able to think deeply. that's a human trait




> I just mentioned that as an example-that women who act all giggly and frivolous, and seem to live mostly for relationships are seen as more "normal" and of a healthier attitude than other who are, say, spending most of their time in their theories and patterns.


this sounds more of an INxx thing than necessarily an NT thing. I'm an NT yes, but I'm also an extrovert and as such I'd rather live the majority of life externally via relationships than internally with theories and patterns.

so i guess overall i don't get what your saying.. your experience hasnt been my experience which makes it difficult for me to agree with it being an NT thing <insert shrug>.


ETA: I just realized that perhaps this is an age thing as well? I'm in my late 20's so dont really run into those kind of guys anymore. I think I recall running into more in my teens and early 20's but by 25 the wheat separates from the chaff...


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## Mantis (Feb 7, 2010)

here we go with what men want, again..yes, I know the theories. and precisely because we know that we have these instincts, why are there still so many people who weigh a woman's worth based on her attractiveness?-not even good looks, because there are a lot of women who are not necessarily good looking, but are attractive to the opposite sex.

I'm not talking about what turns men on, I'm talking about values, here. and values should be pondered mentally.
Of course we are attracted to good looking mates-women are, too. Doesn't mean they generally value a cute guy more than a smart guy.

"Because guys are hardwired to be attracted to women who look like they will have sex with them and who also look like they can get pregnant easily (0.7 waist-to-hip ratio). How smart a girl is apparently did not factor as heavily in evolutionary sense into how likely the guy is to pass on his genes. So they look at women who flaunt these characteristics."

Yes, yes, we know the theories..but not all men are run by their genitals, mind you. Actually my father told me once that he married my mother because she was the smartest girl he'd ever met-in addition to having bright blue-eyes, though. lol. And he's an ENTJ, as far as I can tell.


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## Mantis (Feb 7, 2010)

Leelloo(lol)

ok, anybody can be pensive, but NTs derive more pleasure from it? 

Yes, I suppose there's a major difference between introverts and extroverts..I've noticed this with the few ENTs I know-they cannot be alone for more than a couple of hours-and only if they have a TV, or something around for those couple of hours.

So it's just INTs that come off as spaced out and weird? Well, whatever. I don't care, as long as I'm on the Einstein team.:crazy:


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Your dad married your mom for how smart she is, but then also not all people assign value to a woman based on how attractive she looks or devalue her for being smart. If we are stereotyping here, lets stereotype.

As for values I'll explain this again: Getting sex is high up on a man's value system. Appearance (how healthy and likely you are to bear children) is also high up on their value system. How high of an IQ you have is lower on their value system. This varies man to man obviously but for many this is true. And for women this value system is different. I would think that this appearance-based value system is most true of the sensory types, because for them what they see is what they get. Sensors comprise 80% of the population meaning 4 out of 5 men that you meet will be S-types, and only 1 out of 5 will be N like your dad.


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

Mantis said:


> Leelloo(lol)
> 
> 
> So it's just INTs that come off as spaced out and weird? Well, whatever. I don't care, as long as I'm on the Einstein team.:crazy:


i just started my job about 6 months ago. the first week out they invited me out for drinks all came except for 1 woman who lives further away. so according to my coworkers she's a weirdo. turns out she's an INTP. i dont particularly find her that weird, eccentric yes but it's always people's eccentricities that make them worth talking to.

anyway i think the difference between her and me is that she's not very talkative so when she does say something weird it seems that much more striking than if i were to to say something weird because i talk more..a lot more. and they are now used to me saying all kinds of BS :crazy: oh they also thought she was weird because she has a degree in physics (which i guess isn't that common considering we work in translations) but when i told them that my undergrad degree was in physics, they were like "hey that's cool" and started asking me stuff..

so to answer your question i think extroverted quirkiness gets excused more than introverted quirkiness. which sux because I tend to like INTs and they all tend to ask "why do i make people uncomfortable?" :sad:


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## Slkmcphee (Oct 19, 2009)

Mantis said:


> Leelloo(lol)
> 
> ok, anybody can be pensive, but NTs derive more pleasure from it?
> 
> ...


I don't think that INTs come off as spaced out and weird. Just different. I've seen several INTs who were very successful in cultivating an aura of mystery, which is also very appealing. 

There is a significant segment of the male population that will go for the female who _seems_ to be the giggling flake (not all people are what they appear to be) because it seems to be the easy target. A man's worst nightmare is to be shot down, _especially_ in public. Most of them cannot take it well. Gigglers and flakes are least likely to be carrying a "shotgun." What is a pensive and studious woman carrying?

Sometimes, in some situations, it is a challenge to be different. Some men are put off by my honesty and forwardness, even in nonromantic settings. Most often I encounter surprise, I have a "girlish" appearance that is hard to shake and it seems like I should be "softer." I have found that SJs are the least likely to find me appealing (although I do like many SJ qualities). They are like, what, 40% of the population? Oh, well. 

I love to be alone for several hours at a time, btw. However, I am a mother of 3 children, ages 4,6 & 8. Silent alone time is so infrequent for me it is like a gift from heaven. But when I was younger I think that statement qualified.

My husband married me because I told him to. I'm not joking. Just play to your strengths, that's all we got.


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## analytik (May 23, 2010)

vel said:


> Sensors comprise 80% of the population meaning 4 out of 5 men that you meet will be S-types, and only 1 out of 5 will be N like your dad.


Hah. No.

There are several factors that play a role in this, and the irrational part of deciding (N/S) is probably the least important here.

First, there are hormones and maturity. If an attractive woman approached a teenager and suggested sex, there would be virtually no difference between N and S boys. What would play role would be
- morals
- social anxieties
- sex drive
- mood swings, anxieties, depressions, etc (since most of them suppress sex drive)
- maturity
- current level of satisfaction with one's sex life and/or relationship
- general approach to women (i.e. viewing them as sex objects vs. equal beings)

Not necessarily in that order. A lot of people misinterpret MBTI types with downsides/quirks typical for given type. E.g. Perceiving => lazy procrastinator, Introverted => social retard, etc. Or, SJ => Judgmental, holier-than-thou prick. While I love stereotypes (and the world does, too), it's too far fetched to say something like S = likes senses = likes sex. One could as well say, iNtuitive = likes fantasies = likes to think about sex.

Eh. I know I talk too much; I guess what I'm trying to say is that the depth, morals and current situation of a person affects his view of women as an object of desire more than his MBTI "type".

Also, being irrational is a very natural thing to do; judgments and perceptions occur automatically and are mostly not determined by your conscious mental process, but first and foremost are based on your experiences and the patterns that your mind has absorbed over the years. Multiple studies have shown that tall, attractive people have better chances of succeeding (e.g. in getting a job). Is that because people really think "Oooh, this person is tall and attractive, we should hire him/her"? No. It's because we subconsciously evaluate the person and it is impossible for us to achieve levels of concentration and mental control to suppress the stereotypes, habits, cultural images and standards to start with a truly blank stale and work only on based of facts that we think should be important, i.e. one's readiness for the given job.

Oh God, I talk a lot.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

analytik said:


> There are several factors that play a role in this, and the irrational part of deciding (N/S) is probably the least important here.
> 
> First, there are hormones and maturity. If an attractive woman approached a teenager and suggested sex, there would be virtually no difference between N and S boys.
> 
> ...


This is all in general of course, as the whole MBTI thing is a huge overgeneralization in itself trying to pack 6.8 billion people into 16 personality types. Those other things like past experiences, age difference and maturity, sex drive, values will have their influence over individual cases.

It is not "likes fantasies" or "likes to think about sex". It is - "sees consequences of his behavior clearer". Intuitives excel at interconnecting details to form a bigger picture of the situation. They constructing models of new people they meet in their mind the same - develop a more global view of the person but don't pay as much attention to any one particular detail. Intuitive function has been described as taking future perspective on current events, thus you have a better grasp on consequences of your actions. At first glance a typical N man will react to a woman same way all men have been programmed by nature to react - but he is more likey ("more likely" means it is not all or nothing) to pay attention to those other factors that will tie into a relationship. His N will tell him that in the future , it is not the pretty face or the sexy body he'll be living with but a personality that comes with them too. He is more likely to evaluate a person as a whole rather than by what gets presented to the senses on the surface, while sensors are more likely to pay attention to the later. No N is totally deprived of his or her shadow S function of course.


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## Jinxies (May 5, 2010)

Mantis said:


> is it just me, or are they like the worst-viewed category in society? I mean, without including the outlaws.
> 
> Maybe it's just Eastern Europe, or something, but from what I notice, a woman who is a feather-head who gets easy attention from men is better seen and more respected than a woman who dedicates most of her time to study.


 
I don't know about being viewed socially. As a mature adult in the business and professional world, I'm respected, trusted and often sought out for my advice or opinion. I can be thoughtful, but I don't really consider myself pensive. 

Now, as a teenager and young adult, in relationships with friends and boyfriends, I was often told that I was intimidating. I had many, many guys in highschool tell me straight up that they felt intimidation. So I just started dating older men. I would have girlfriends who would be jealous or frustrated by my smarty ways and no nonsense approach... that and the fact that I didn't coddle them or anything like that.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Most of the population is s, and I don't think that s and n can fully comprehend one another. So, most of society isn't really going to get you - which could be why the swarm of s type males overlook you.. intps don't really make sense to them, and the average s guy isn't typically looking for a mystery, or intellectual challenge. I wouldn't even try to compete, when it comes to s mating games. Not my thing. I hold out until I meet someone who understands what I am, and likes it. NTs are rare, so it might take a while.


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