# Ti, Fi, and consistency.



## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

So, many people care about consistency in some form. However, it is an oversimplification to reduce this to just -- "_Ti cares about logical consistency_" and "_Fi cares about ethical consistency_". 

Why? Because the application of logic and ethics in real life isn't always as straightforward as the above statements. It is not often that we have purely intellectual or moral debates where we see these tendencies in display.

For example, to expound on how I see Ti consistency in day-to-day life, I notice that Ti valuers (note "valuers", I mean people with both weak and strong Ti!) really care about matching the things you say and the things you do. Alternatively -- or additionally, as the case may be -- they care about comparing your present actions with your past actions to determine how much of a "consistent" person you are. You know, like "you said you would engage in X action. Why are you doing this now?"

However, I find this very bothersome. I often change my mind because of my moods or desires, so if someone pinpoints that I said something but ended up doing something different, I will feel rather flustered because there really isn't any reasoning behind my change -- I just decided I liked something different, that's all. 

I notice Ti valuers seem to be very focused on behavioral consistency in a way that I feel rather self-conscious about. It's easy for me to think about my actions when posting online, but it's not so easy in real life, and when I get confronted with that sort of random question, I use relatively weak excuses like "because I can" or "because I wanted to. What's your problem?"

Personally, I try to make the principles that I apply to value judgments consistent. I really care about integrity. Of course, these principles will develop and become better with time, but I try to remain fair in their application. To me, if the principles remain consistent, there's no need to nitpick people's behaviors facetiously, because the application of these principles will change with the circumstances. What matters is the moral principle itself. The rest is superficial and will change with the situation.

-----------------------------​Of course, this is from the POV of an Fi valuer -- you may see it differently! :tongue: So, I would like to know how you see consistency. You can free-write if you want, but if you prefer guided questions:

*1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?

2. If you care about it, in what form is it? Moral, behavioral, logical, or something else? How do you try to achieve that consistency?

3. In what ways do you see people achieve their own forms of consistency? Can you draw any possible type correlations?

4. What sorts of consistency do you dislike being applied onto you?
*
All thoughts are welcome :happy:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

*1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?*
I care for ethical consistency and what annoys me with Ti valuing types that seem to think I'm inconsistent is that they seem to think that literally everything you do has to always line up with what you claim that you say or think. I don't approach it that way; my understanding of consistency is fluid which is more in line of following a general principle or idea and it's much more probabilistic so if you are doing X 60% of the time, hell even 55% of the time, you are still far more consistent than you are inconsistent so why say that just because you broke your principle once out of 100, that 1% suddenly makes you entirely inconsistent? That kind of rigidity doesn't make sense to me. I don't think people are fully consistent or inconsistent either way because life is just too random and chaotic even if we can strive towards it. We can try to apply that consistency in our lives, but it doesn't mean we always will be 100% a thing, one way or the other. Lines are blurry and fluid, because humans are blurry and fluid. We simply change too much and circumstances change too much in order to apply such thinking the same way all the time. Now, that to me, is inconsistent kind of thinking because it doesn't consider sufficient contexts and changing circumstances. 

*2. If you care about it, in what form is it? Moral, behavioral, logical, or something else? How do you try to achieve that consistency?*
Ethical. Moral doesn't sound right. I have a very much live-let-live approach to morality so as long as people don't really hurt another person on purpose, I don't really care. People can do whatever they want. Also, I know when I am consistent or not in being able to apply my own principles and have it reflected in my behavior. I may sometimes fail ethically, but I always know when I am consistent in terms of intention and I think intention matters a lot. I can forgive someone if they have good intentions. 

*3. In what ways do you see people achieve their own forms of consistency? Can you draw any possible type correlations?*
I don't pay attention to whether I think other people are consistent or not as something I find overly relevant about them. I think what matters more is whether their hearts are in the right place and whether what they say does reflect what they really think or feel. So it's more about the sincerity and the intention. I really dislike when people say one thing and make it seem as if they mean it but they really don't. 

*4. What sorts of consistency do you dislike being applied onto you?*
I think consistency is annoying in general as a concept when brought up since I feel very confident in my ability to tell whether I am consistent or not myself, and it mostly comes across as patronizing and I experience it as if people don't really know wtf they're talking about.


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## Serpent (Aug 6, 2015)

When I think of consistency, I think of who I really am. For me, inconsistency is simply when I feel like something is not congruent with who I am. When something just feels wrong. For instance, I would often have these periods of time where I would, I guess, adapt to new situations or dynamics and at the end, have an epiphany where I would realize that I have changed for the worse or not been true to myself. I have this abstract sense of personal integrity. It's not like I don't change at all, of course. I am continually evolving but I can distinguish between changes that feel true to me and changes that I feel are akin to trash acquired on the way. Also, when I'm in the presence of bad company, there is a strong sense of inconsistency in the air where I feel very incongruent in relation to the people I'm around or the environment I'm in. You talked about Ti valuers comparing their present actions with their past actions. Well, I am like that, except that I approach things from a more fundamental level. It's more about who I feel I am than my actions. I also notice these changes in other people, mostly my friends. I'm aware of these changes on basically a constant level. It's like I'm subconsciously tracking my friends through time. I also feel like I'm more concerned about this than most people, because I bring these changes and developments up a lot in conversation. I generally like to talk about how anything has changed over time, though. 

I've often been in situations where I would make a comment about a tendency of mine but do or say an entirely different thing in the very next moment, this usually happens in arguments lol. I do find it quite annoying. Such kind of consistency feels robotic to me. I definitely don't have this specific set of attributes or values. I've never related to having values or morals in the sense that if someone asks me about it, I can list them. I don't have a delineated code of ethics. I just do what feels right given the situation. I don't care about labels like honor, courage, bravery etc. They all seem the same to me from a distance anyway.


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## Irene90 (Jun 30, 2016)

I think I am Ti valuer.
*1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?*
Consistency means predictability, without being restricted to a single expression. The sum of the possible expressions could be infinite, but the recorded expression itself should be able to have been hypothesized from the beginning. Example: at any moment a molecule of air can have an infinite amount of possible speed values, but no object can be faster than light. I care about it very much. 

*2. If you care about it, in what form is it? Moral, behavioral, logical, or something else? How do you try to achieve that consistency?*
Logical. I don't keep a behavioral consistency, though if I outright state I will do something to someone, and that someone is ought to know if I will do it or not, I will make it so I realize it. Morals are something really personal and no one is aware of them to their full extend, new experiences can change the understanding of someone in regards to oneself and to the world, therefore I don't consider moral consistency to exist.

*3. In what ways do you see people achieve their own forms of consistency? Can you draw any possible type correlations?*
People can't always be consistent, they do try to keep their consistency towards people they care about or need to appear dependable to.

*4. What sorts of consistency do you dislike being applied onto you?*
I don't dislike people applying consistency to me, that means people care about me enough to have expectations of me. The question is. Do I care about them enough to try to meet them?


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

I care a great deal about consistency. Part of the consistency is predictability and I prefer things to be predictable. Chaotic circumstances and mindsets disbalance and stress me. Since 8 times out of 10 behavior is what I have to do with IRL, I deal with consistency on mostly behavioral level. Someone's words matching/not matching with other things person claims, words matching/not matching with their deeds - that stuff. Keeping one's word comes under the same umbrella. In this way predictability - and thus consistency - are connected with trust in my mind. If I can't trust any given person/occurrences/conditions/whatever or count on them, I prefer not to deal with such situation altogether or, at the very least, avoid them as much as possible and if none of the mentioned above is possible to achieve, try and bring some consistency myself to make sense of it.

Obviously, people may change their preferences, ideas, outlooks, tastes etc., but if it happens five times per day, it's difficult for me to take this person seriously and entrust them with something of importance. This differs from person to person of course, and people can be both inconsistent and consistent on different levels, but when someone confidently preaches about something and the next they ruthlessly bashes it in the same steadfast manner they preached about it the day before, it baffles me. Why would anybody believe something so easily and unconditionally itfp just to figure out later that something doesn't add up, because of some new information they got, and believe it right away once again to discard the previous belief and continue going like this in circles? That's an example of a very inconsistent behavior to me. The behavior itself already gained a discernible consistent pattern of course, a pattern of belief->obtaining contradictory information->doubt->discard->getting new belief->obtaining contradictory information->rinse repeat, but as much as people are free to change their opinions on any given matter, they can't keep changing this quickly and drastically in the course of just a day or a couple days. In my opinion it just shows superficial level of understanding of what they believed in itfp, lack of solid internal basis to ground their opinion on and, as as a result, futility of it.

If matter of consistency concerns myself, I don't have to take any special measures to achieve it. It's just the natural way to function for me. I'm not saying that I'm always 100% consistent. This is simply not realistic for any living being to be 100% something. But comparing myself to other people I think that I have little difficulties with staying on the consistent path. When it concerns others... I try to avoid people whom I can't count on or who show some inconsistency in their behavior that is potentially harmful or may lead to situations, which I'd be less than happy to find myself in.

Don't recall anybody trying to apply some form of consistency onto me... Except for the need to follow a consistent time schedule, that has been applied onto me first by educational institutions and then by working organisations. I'd rather stay on my own time schedule, but this is how the world works nowadays, so I have no choice but to comply so far.


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

*1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?*
Consistency is following your own rules, so each individual can be consistent in entirely different ways depending on what kind of rules they follow. But I do think it's important for people to stand by their word. For example, if I say I'm going to do something, then unless something actually prevents me from doing it, I feel the need to go through with it, even if I'm no longer necessarily wanting to (when I say to a friend that I'll meet up with them, then I will even if I really don't want to on the day or I'm not feeling well etc.). I also expect others to stand by what they say - in the case of what they say being like a promise. I do care quite a bit about that.
However, if it's consistency in thought, I think that's very flexible. If you change your mind on something, that can be because new information has come up, or you've had time to think something over and reason it out differently than before, so if someone's opinion on something changes, that's completely fine.

*2. If you care about it, in what form is it? Moral, behavioral, logical, or something else? How do you try to achieve that consistency?*
I guess, to elaborate on the above, it's about what is fluid and what isn't. When you say you're going to do something (even something mundane like saying to your housemate you're going to wash the dishes) there's no real excuse not to. If you're not going to do it, don't say you are. I think it's also that if you say one thing, to say something that completely contradicts it is generally difficult unless, like I said before, new information becomes apparent, or something.
For me personally, I tend to naturally be consistent because I don't say things or come to conclusions lightly, so when I do, it means I've reasoned out as much as I can at that time. Of course, that still means I could have missed something and will end up changing my mind later, but only after more careful reasoning.

*3. In what ways do you see people achieve their own forms of consistency? Can you draw any possible type correlations?*
Like I said, they have their own rules they live by, generally. That gives them some level of consistency and predictability, but then people are also always growing and changing, so they can change between each context. I'm not very good at drawing type correlations from behaviours (and I don't think it works very well overall because behaviours are inconsistent and influenced by variables).

*4. What sorts of consistency do you dislike being applied onto you?*
I find people expecting me to stick to the same mindset about everything frustrating because I'm always learning new things, and how can I justify pretending I'm staying in one position when I'm actually stood on top of a board with wheels on that's forever moving forwards?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

*1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?*

I think of consistency as one way of gauging the likelihood of whether something may be true. Say a totally new idea is introduced to you. Say you have no way of finding out for certain whether it's true or not. You can still make an educated guess based on whether it's consistent with your knowledge of similar or overlapping concepts, which provide a rough idea of what may be possible. 

Consistency (including logical consistency) can be an important part of discernment, determining how something works and what's true or not, etc. So in that regard, I do value it somewhat. But to be honest I don't really care about it, sometimes I might even seem to reject it as unimportant, because I'm more focused on what may be possible and on adapting and accommodating new information than on forming more definite opinions. 

*4. What sorts of consistency do you dislike being applied onto you?*

Some people talk about consistency of behavior, or consistency of policy. I personally don't see the point in the former, and the latter seems like it can be problematic in certain types of cases if it leads to rigidly placing policy above the people it's supposed to serve, which doesn't seem right. Sometimes consistency isn't worth anything, sometimes it's just mindlessly repeating the past.

Other times, it's a reality check, or way to fix misunderstandings in communication. If someone points out inconsistencies in one's views or logic, that can indicate something isn't correctly understood (and it's not always by the one accused, sometimes the one claiming inconsistency is the one who misunderstood what the person meant). This is the kind of consistency I do sometimes value. And even there, it's not the consistency itself that matters but what it _might_ indicate. But if it's the kind of consistency that says I shouldn't change or adapt, that I should just repeat the past just because, or follow rules just because, that's the kind I don't value. I personally don't see the value in striving to be the same all the time. I also don't like the expectation some may have that someone should appear consistent in their views or communication all the time, because I find that unrealistic. I know I'm not that exacting all the time in my communication, I see it as an approximate attempt to convey thoughts, which naturally isn't going to be perfectly understood by everyone.

Overall, consistency isn't something that often comes to mind for me. Occasionally something comes up where it might be involved in forming an accurate understanding, but I wouldn't say that consistency is something I focus on or care about generally.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

Night Huntress said:


> So, many people care about consistency in some form. However, it is an oversimplification to reduce this to just -- "_Ti cares about logical consistency_" and "_Fi cares about ethical consistency_".
> 
> Why? Because the application of logic and ethics in real life isn't always as straightforward as the above statements. It is not often that we have purely intellectual or moral debates where we see these tendencies in display.
> 
> ...


Actually...this is a fantastic observation. I very much do care about my own consistency. If I say something is true, and then later believe it is not, I *must* have a reason why. If I cannot rationalize my own reason for changing, I find it stressful. This is part of why I spend so much time in my own head, observing myself - I have strong Fi unconscious, and mood swings, and trouble sticking to things in the extreme long term if they don't hold my interest...but I *need* to keep doing the things I have agreed to do at the same time.

Whereas with moral judgments, I reject the idea of utilizing the exact same moral compass every time. If someone points out I handled an ethical situation differently this time than some other time or my "usual", I would be confused and say "Well of course I did - this is a different situation? I had to factor for x y and z this time." It bothers me when people try to hold me to always expressing things in the same way or judging certain things the same way. This goes down to even things as simple as like and dislike. There are days where I don't even like playing one of my games, but I will do so for a while anyway just because I know I will like it again in future, and I value the progress I can make in the game with the time I have available. Like, with Mass Effect. I have played it too many times, and it is starting to get boring, but this character has to be played through in order to reach Mass Effect 2 with the desirable Game-completion bennies. So despite not even liking playing the game right now, I play it anyway with the free time I don't have anything else I want to do with, because that is one of my current projects. Like/dislike doesn't determine the logical consistency of my actions most of the time - instead, it affects my energy levels but I can do it anyway. People will ask me "Well why play it if you don't like it?" I will say "Because I have goals I want to reach, and I told myself I would do this by x day. I do what I say I will do."

Consistency matters internally. Consistent with myself and what I choose to do. I'd like to think that's the only consistency I care about, but I know that isn't true. I have clashed with people over their saying one thing and doing another a few times. It feels like they are lying to me when they do that, like they aren't being 'real' with me.

This tendency is one reason why I used to think of myself as a thinker type.


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## Rabid Seahorse (Mar 10, 2015)

Night Huntress said:


> 1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?


It's easier to describe what is inconsistency, but consistency to me means following a personal system of behavior and actions. The more complex the system is, the better because it can adapt to difficult situations.



> 2. If you care about it, in what form is it? Moral, behavioral, logical, or something else? How do you try to achieve that consistency?


Mostly behavioral. Logical consistency is only important in serious, decisive situations. I try to achieve it by just setting a set of personal laws and rules (ex: don't steal, don't leave a mess in someone's house) and avoid breaking them whenever possible. If I encounter a situation where I'm tempted or enticed into breaking them, I just try to leave the situation.



> 3. In what ways do you see people achieve their own forms of consistency? Can you draw any possible type correlations?


They structure their lifestyles to fit the design of their system. For example, people with libertarian beliefs here in the US often own firearms, support same-sex marriage, and try to learn survivalist skills to be independent from society because that is consistent with the principles of libertarianism. 



> 4. What sorts of consistency do you dislike being applied onto you?
> [/COLOR][/B]
> All thoughts are welcome :happy:


Moral, but only when it's someone else's rules and it's not for something important like my occupation. For instance, if I were a lawyer I would follow the procedure because I understand that it has a good reason. I have my own moral code which isn't nearly as complex as others but I dislike breaking it. When people impose their own morals on me I get irritated because it's not something I'm used to or good at.


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## afloatexplorer (Jun 18, 2016)

1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?
I began to care much more about it since a couple years ago. These days I sub/consciously think about it and use it as an evaluation for people I communicate with. I put emphasis on how resonates one's action with one's words, and how resonates one's theories are. I also apply this to myself as it would seen to me that I am not acting consistent if I emphasise this on others but not myself.


2. If you care about it, in what form is it? Moral, behavioral, logical, or something else? How do you try to achieve that consistency?
All of the above, I apply them as often as I can. Applying on others is relatively easy, I do it subconsciously most of the time. My "filter" for consistency turns on as the input (e.g. their words, actions etc) "flows" pass my ears/eyes. Applying to myself can be uncomfortable and to be frank I feel kinda like ascetic sometimes. 


3. In what ways do you see people achieve their own forms of consistency? Can you draw any possible type correlations?
From my perspective, as stereotyping as it sounds, many T users are quite good at being consistent, or at least they have the kinds of consistency that I am going after. I am aware that consistency is very subjective and that certain actions/words are not necessary indication of contradiction, e.g. an Fe user may fully get what another Fe user means and doesn't not think there's inconsistency.

4. What sorts of consistency do you dislike being applied onto you?
Maybe because of my Ne has already played out different kinds of consistency in my head, and I like to think I act quite consistently, I don't remember the last time a certain kind of consistency was forced down my throat. If someone pointed out me being inconsistent, I tend to listen to their reasons and self-reflect if what they said is true.


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Night Huntress said:


> So, many people care about consistency in some form. However, it is an oversimplification to reduce this to just -- "_Ti cares about logical consistency_" and "_Fi cares about ethical consistency_".
> 
> Why? Because the application of logic and ethics in real life isn't always as straightforward as the above statements. It is not often that we have purely intellectual or moral debates where we see these tendencies in display.


Well the point is they're meant to be narrow, information aspects aren't supposed to have any overlap, they're precisely defined by dichotomies dividing all information into 8 distinct types; logic is logic and ethics is ethics, in socionics anyway.

Yes, in the real world you don't deal with one category of information at a time, that would be meaningless, like looking at a metal spoon and trying to separate the metal aspect of the spoon from the spoon aspect of the spoon. They're theoretical divisions of an atomic whole. Real information consists of all 8, but in socionics we divide it up in order to analyse how we deal with different aspects of information.

For myself, with leading :r: and role :L:, I'm probably about equally conscious of dealing with both but a lot more confident in making :r: judgments, that's the difference between those functions for me.


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## AdInfinitum (Oct 21, 2014)

1. What does consistency mean to you, and how much do you care about it?
Consistency is a purely internal factory to me, it flows around in my own thoughts, ideas, feelings, it is a sense of alignment with oneself in your own behaviour yet I am a subject to that idea less than I would like to as I find myself to over-step my own values most of the times and go towards another inner feeling (e.g. a colleague that is feeling down or might display any sign of internal disturbance or harsh feeling, I feel pushed by an inner force to try to make him see another light, idea, perspective as one of the new branches might offer guidance in his internal struggle, I am certainly a lot pushier than I internally analyze myself to be as I correlate everything with how I feel during such situations, a need to offer the other person an escape from my own pain). However my deep need to help others due to being aware of the intensity of their feelings does not overrule my own consistency, I see us to be a lot more inconsistent than we assess us to be as the perfect model is within ourselves more than the outside, we all are put into situations which change our internal pattern and shift our feelings around. The world would be such a different place if we were allowed to be as free as possible in feelings, a lot more sincere. 



2. If you care about it, in what form is it? Moral, behavioral, logical, or something else? How do you try to achieve that consistency?
Moral. Behavioral consistency is for the stronger people who are able to assert their views on the outside, I am a lot more tamer with judging others based on their outside light, the darkness underneath can be more overwhelming than perceived. I suppose I only judge someone behaviourally if I am truly hurt by their course of action or if it conflicts with my own expectations from the world, I usually feel a strong repulsion towards hypocrisy . 

~Will answer the rest tomorrow, too tired for life. Interesting topic though.


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## Nothing1 (Jan 22, 2014)

Consistency for me (my focus as an IEI) means self awareness and being specific. It's about actually knowing yourself versus being confused by who you think you are or who you want to be. I don't have an issue with a person saying that how they respond to a specific situation varies because of mood or some other variable. To me, that shows self awareness and maturity. It shows they are aware that their consistency is inconsistency. I do, however, take issue with a person not knowing this and simply saying they always or most always act like x in situation y, when in reality, they act like x 30% of the time. A person who doesn't seem to realize they don't usually act or respond an exact way to a situation yet claim they do doesn't see the inconsistency between how they are and who they think they are. For me, if you aren't cognizant of your real self and actions, it makes me think you're not mature and trustworthy or a wild card because apparently, neither of us knows how you're going to behave. What's wrong with saying “yeah, I act that way sometimes” versus saying “I'm exactly like that. I always act that way (when the truth is you SOMETIMES act that way)”. I suppose it's about being as specific as possible when communicating so that we are all on the same page. If “always act that way” means: I act that way 50% of the time, I'd like to know that because “always” means 100% of the time to me. This causes communication breakdowns. If every word was defined by the user, we wouldn't be able to communicate. Ti is the dictionary. It's the we agree that this means this to keep confusion down.


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