# The latest ranking of top countries in math, reading, and science is out



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

*— and the US didn't crack the top 10*



Abby Jackson and Andy Kiersz

 The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)  released the results of its 2015 global rankings on student performance in mathematics, reading, and science, on the Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA. 

The PISA is a worldwide exam administered every three years that measures 15-year-olds in 72 countries. About 540,000 students took the exam in 2015. 

The US saw an 11-point drop in average score for math, while remaining relatively flat in reading and science. 
   Business Insider

The results again raise questions about the global competitiveness of the US educational system.

On a press call on Tuesday, Jon Schnur, executive chairman of America Achieves, said we need to make dramatic progress in showing educational improvement for students. 

When looking at a comparable sample of countries that participated in the PISA exam in both 2012 (the last time the test was administered) and 2015, the US ranking fell to 35th from 28th in math. The US underperformed the OECD average in math. 

Scores were relatively unchanged in reading and science compared to 2012 — down one point in each. The US performed better than the OECD average in both subjects. 

Asian countries again topped the rankings across all subjects, and Singapore was the top performing country across all three subjects.


----------



## Hypaspist (Feb 11, 2012)

Go Poland! 

But then again, we always did have a strong tradition in math, literature, and science.

Can't say I'm shocked by the US result, I don't think it's going to change for another couple of generations.


----------



## ShatteredHeart (Jul 11, 2014)

Wow, better than I thought, good thing we dropped everything but STEM from the education system to inflate our position on a useless fucking list


----------



## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

I wonder if it'd be more useful to measure the math skills of adults rather than in schools? That way we can see whether those skills have actually been retained or not.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

Lithuania beating USA in math :shocked:. My god, muricans are really dumb.


----------



## Antiloop (Feb 10, 2014)

The red spirit said:


> Lithuania beating USA in math :shocked:. My god, muricans are really dumb.


Hm. Lithuanians being smart is out of the question?


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

Antiloop said:


> Hm. Lithuanians being smart is out of the question?


If you saw what happpens in Lithuanian schools, then you will think that muricans are dumb.


----------



## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Canada doing well I see


----------



## Antiloop (Feb 10, 2014)

The red spirit said:


> If you saw what happpens in Lithuanian schools, then you will think that muricans are dumb.


Hm. I'm curious to ask, but perhaps it's best if I don't know.

It's an interesting list though. My country appears to doing worse than it _should_, but I'm actually not too surprised.


----------



## katemess (Oct 21, 2015)

Did you really expect the US to be in the top 10? 

I'm more intrigued by Sweden's ranking. People constantly crap on about how "great" the Swedish education system is, but they're not exactly excelling. 

Australia's solution is to "import more teachers from Singapore", because apparently non-Singaporean teachers is the reason we're falling.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

Antiloop said:


> Hm. I'm curious to ask, but perhaps it's best if I don't know.


Student talk loudly, swear, troll teachers, never do homework, behave like thugs, sometimes start fistfight, use phones, spit, troll other students, destroy random things in cabinet, destroy other student's stuff and often go to director and then director invite parents. Somehow they advance to later classes and finish school.

These things greatly depend on school and teacher.


----------



## sinaasappel (Jul 22, 2015)

The red spirit said:


> Student talk loudly, swear, troll teachers, never do homework, behave like thugs, sometimes start fistfight, use phones, spit, troll other students, destroy random things in cabinet, destroy other student's stuff and often go to director and then director invite parents. Somehow they advance to later classes and finish school.
> 
> These things greatly depend on school and teacher.


This happens in Lithuania? Sounds just like America tbh. As an American I'm not surprised at this, same old. We don't even really know how to fix this. It depends on everyone involved.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

GIA Diamonds said:


> This happens in Lithuania? Sounds just like America tbh. As an American I'm not surprised at this, same old. We don't even really know how to fix this. It depends on everyone involved.


I don't know anything about murica, but there was some shit when 3 girls from my class beat up man in street and went to police. Another shit, student stole phones and sold them, again ended up in police. I even saw, that my classmates were threatening some kids from school with knife. Sometimes they steal from stores. Smoking and drinking wasn't something special to them. I heard some rumors about prostitution and running from cops.

I'm not in that school anymore.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

@GIA Diamonds Does that happen in Murica too?


----------



## DualGnosis (Apr 6, 2013)

Damn those Asians! Maybe I should have stayed in Asia or moved across the South China Sea into Singapore...

Oh well, I like it here in the states, even though I went to California 'multicultural' public schools for most of my life... how I got into college, I have no idea. 

Next time U.S.A. we will do better!! or worse. I wish they divided our scoring by states and demographics just to see how the scores add up.


----------



## Sylarz (Sep 4, 2014)

Guess where all those smart people want to go and live and work for maximum opportunity though....

Zing.


----------



## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

So is there any exchange program to send your kids to learn in Singapore?


----------



## coconut sharks (Apr 26, 2015)

Didn't expect my country to be this high (Poland). 
Why is America expected to be very good at everything?


----------



## La Li Lu Le Lo (Aug 15, 2011)

Stelmaria said:


> I wonder if it'd be more useful to measure the math skills of adults rather than in schools? That way we can see whether those skills have actually been retained or not.


Math skills NEVER retain unless you are literally doing the math every day as part of your job. Otherwise after schooling all you will remember is basic algebra and that's it.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

saccharine tangerine said:


> Why is America expected to be very good at everything?


because epeople imagine USA as world leader, so expectations are high


----------



## Hero of Freedom (Nov 23, 2014)

Ever wondered why math rhymes with trash?


----------



## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

La Li Lu Le Lo said:


> Math skills NEVER retain unless you are literally doing the math every day as part of your job. Otherwise after schooling all you will remember is basic algebra and that's it.


So why do we care about the rankings if we don't need those skills? :wink:


----------



## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

USA's educational system is absolute trash; except for private schooling - as much we _delude_ ourselves otherwise. - It tend(s) to be the main fuel _breeding_ Americas pride; we have likely been in this bracket or _lower_, for quite awhile. Many American's are not surprised, I am not.


----------



## Sylarz (Sep 4, 2014)

saccharine tangerine said:


> Didn't expect my country to be this high (Poland).
> Why is America expected to be very good at everything?


'cause it used to be.


----------



## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Aren't a lot of Asian countries only testing their top percentages of students or something?


----------



## AvaISTJ (Nov 24, 2016)

I wish I was more surprised by the poor placement of the US, but we math and science lovers are few and far between here. It doesn't say much for our school system either.


----------



## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Impressive score for Singapore.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Poizon said:


> Aren't a lot of Asian countries only testing their top percentages of students or something?


yes, their top 100%


----------



## Sylarz (Sep 4, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Impressive score for Singapore.


It's amazing what you can achieve when you throw enough human misery at it.  *cough* Korea *cough*


----------



## Sylarz (Sep 4, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> yes, their top 100%


Wouldn't be surprised. Their whole cultural vibe seems to be focused on appearances rather than reality 

that tàijítú though


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Setrleua said:


> Wouldn't be surprised. Their whole cultural vibe seems to be focused on appearances rather than reality
> 
> that tàijítú though


singaporean culture values discipline and the predominant chinese culture values scholarship...when combined in a small and homogeneous population, it isn't a surprise discipline and scholarship produce very good mean results on tests of _rote _learning...rote learning, however, should not be dismissed too quickly as singapore's per capita gdp ranks third highest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


----------



## Flamme et Citron (Aug 26, 2015)

Dat Canada ranking tho


----------



## yentipeee (Jun 19, 2013)

The pilgrims that came to the US from Europe were not exactly the best & brightest, so what do you expect?

The countries that lead the pack have equal access to education and healthcare for all their citizens. That's the cornerstone of civilized societies. GO CANADA, GO HABS GO

US also has equally low ranking in quality of healthcare, yet it has the highest per capita cost.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

I knew North Korea claims 100% literacy rates.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

Chara said:


> Ever wondered why math rhymes with trash?


It doesn't rhyme well, but math and meth or math and bath rhymes well


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

@The red spirit believe it or not, that's pretty common in America. (With America, I mean America, not just the U.S.. Shit, they use the word "americans" to refer to themselves like the whole continent is their country! America is made up by a lot of countries, dammit! >:-(
)
I'm even surprised by your reaction of surprise!


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

Santa Klara said:


> @The red spirit believe it or not, that's pretty common in America. (With America, I mean America, not just the U.S.. Shit, they use the word "americans" to refer to themselves like the whole continent is their country! America is made up by a lot of countries, dammit! >:-(
> )
> I'm even surprised by your reaction of surprise!


I don't know why that shit happens, can't kinds be more friendly?

Was I surprised somewhere?


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

The red spirit said:


> I don't know why that shit happens, can't kinds be more friendly?


Kinds? What do you mean?
Oh btw there are a few exception in America (at least that's what I believe): Canada, Chile, Uruguai, Argentina. Anyone correct me please


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

Go Brazil! :sad:


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

The red spirit said:


> Was I surprised somewhere?


Sorry, I misinterpreted you.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

Santa Klara said:


> Go Brazil! :sad:


I heard, that in Brazil there are people with AK47s, who belong to local mafia and some kids have guns too, sorry, but I just want to know about situation in Brazil.


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

The red spirit said:


> I heard, that in Brazil there are people with AK47, who belong to local mafia and some kids have guns too, sorry, but I just want to know about situation in Brazil.


It's ok, I appreciate your curiosity. Yes that's true, unfortunately. Those people grow up in an environment where there's no opportunities of a good life, no education (if there's education, it's of not quality), a bad family, etc. So it's easy for them to join mafias.


----------



## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Setrleua said:


> It's amazing what you can achieve when you throw enough human misery at it.  *cough* Korea *cough*


What do you know about Singapore?


----------



## Sylarz (Sep 4, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> What do you know about Singapore?


Enough.


----------



## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Setrleua said:


> Enough.


I thought you would have elaborated.


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

@Notus Asphodelus you could teach us math, reading and science


----------



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

The red spirit said:


> I heard, that in Brazil there are people with AK47s, who belong to local mafia and some kids have guns too, sorry, but I just want to know about situation in Brazil.


1-that's the poor part of Brasil

2- Mafia is a strong word, they're just thugs.

3- The police now have authority to use these illegal apprehended guns and not just let it sit there doing nothing (because people were complaining the thugs were better armed than the police lol)

4- The thugs will cowardly hand out guns to the kids in some confrontations, but the kids don't own any guns. That's more rare though, the kids mostly serve as messengers or some kind of alarm to the adult thugs.

5- That happens mostly in the poor parts of Rio. But people gotta understand that Rio (although it once was the capital of Brasil), it's not the entire country. Just like Miami is not the entire USA.


----------



## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

how are the scores being calculated 
by % of students in country
i.e. 1000 Americans took the test vs 100 germans


----------



## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

Santa Klara said:


> @Notus Asphodelus you could teach us math, reading and science


Hahaha.. how did I end up here? :laughing: 

I could probably teach reading though. When I was in school, the older students were assigned a buddy from the younger classes to teach them how to read every morning before the flag raising ceremony. It was a buddy system that rewarded students for teaching their younger schoolmates how to read. As for the younger students, they would get graded by how well they read. For example, I would see if my buddy could progress from level 1 to level 12 English or whatever language that needed tutoring. In a classroom of 40 students, it is very difficult for a teacher to focus on every student. That is why the Buddy Reading Club exists.


----------



## aus2020 (Jun 29, 2011)

Go Canada!

Maths, science and reading skills are not the only factors that determine a country's future economic progress, but I'd rather our future leaders have above average rather than below average abilities.


----------



## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

aus2020 said:


> Go Canada!
> 
> Maths, science and reading skills are not the only factors that determine a country's future economic progress, but I'd rather our future leaders have above average rather than below average abilities.


I wanted to go to a Canadian university a decade ago but due to being broke I couldn't travel.


----------



## aus2020 (Jun 29, 2011)

Notus Asphodelus said:


> I wanted to go to a Canadian university a decade ago but due to being broke I couldn't travel.


Where did you eventually study?


----------



## Introvertia (Feb 6, 2016)

Finland's ranking is a disappointment and weaker than before.


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

Notus Asphodelus said:


> Hahaha.. how did I end up here? :laughing:
> 
> I could probably teach reading though. When I was in school, the older students were assigned a buddy from the younger classes to teach them how to read every morning before the flag raising ceremony. It was a buddy system that rewarded students for teaching their younger schoolmates how to read. As for the younger students, they would get graded by how well they read. For example, I would see if my buddy could progress from level 1 to level 12 English or whatever language that needed tutoring. In a classroom of 40 students, it is very difficult for a teacher to focus on every student. That is why the Buddy Reading Club exists.


Cool! Haha it just reminded me of my classmate. He's the best student in my class, and one of the classmates once said "he explains the subjects even better than the teachers"! Lol. The funny thing is: it's true


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

@Ebenezer Scrooge 2. I agree, tho they aren't "just thugs". They are more organized than the police, let's face the truth.
3. Well, when the army has to control the situation themselves, we know things are pretty fucked up. They are smarter than you think.
5. Yeah I agree. But it's not just Rio: there are many dangerous places here.


----------



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Santa Klara said:


> @Ebenezer Scrooge 2. I agree, tho they aren't "just thugs". They are more organized than the police, let's face the truth.


Only if you're talking about the 'red faction' a famous rio organization or the 'PCC' another famous organization from São Paulo. But last time I checked, just 8 police cars took care of the problem. They are big, but only the big guys are really intelligence, most of them aren't prepared like a 'sicilian mafia' style.



Santa Klara said:


> 3. Well, when the army has to control the situation themselves, we know things are pretty fucked up. They are smarter than you think.


It never got to the point, it was about to here in SP in 2006 but like I said, ROTA the special forces took care of it, magestically



Santa Klara said:


> 5. Yeah I agree. But it's not just Rio: there are many dangerous places here.


yeah, we're falling behind Chile and Argentina in human development that's the truth, but... I'll say that again, we can't resume a country by one place, just like we can't resume USA on being just "Hollywood" (I thought this one might be a better analogy since most of the actors come from rio:tongue. 

But you know my biggest problem with this country was the dirty coup *made by half dozen of wanna be republicans* that thought it would be a good idea to throw out the king and his family. So yeah, if it was a couple of years ago I would be mad about people burning the flag, but today meh... That was never our real flag anyway


----------



## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

Ebenezer Scrooge said:


> But you know my biggest problem with this country was the dirty coup *made by half dozen of wanna be republicans* that thought it would be a good idea to throw out the king and his family. So yeah, if it was a couple of years ago I would be mad about people burning the flag, but today meh... That was never our real flag anyway


Lol can you explain this again? I still don't understand why you said that


----------



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

PISA is kind of a pointless test, IMO. The only thing telling about PISA is that yes, the educational system in the US is outdated and as a nation, we're apparently trending lower at math. Smh... That really shouldn't be surprising as globalization has seen to it that a lot of careers involving math simply be outsourced to countries in Asia. At any rate, here are two studies that give a more accurate picture of the current state of education in the US:

NAEP - 2015 Mathematics & Reading Assessments
Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS)-Welcome to TIMSS and TIMSS Advanced Results from 2015

Testing the modernity of the educational system, which is what PISA does is pointless, IMO. Testing the students themselves is much more relevant to the state of the education of children. What PISA does tell me though is that I won't be sending my daughter to a regular K-12 school probably past the 5th grade. I'd rather send her to a specialized school/academy so she can work on developing skills she'll need as an adult and at whatever career path she ends up choosing.


----------



## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Catwalk said:


> USA's educational system is absolute trash; except for private schooling - as much we _delude_ ourselves otherwise. - It tend(s) to be the main fuel _breeding_ Americas pride; we have likely been in this bracket or _lower_, for quite awhile. Many American's are not surprised, I am not.


It is overly simplistic to blame the educational system as the sole, or even primary reason for our standings in this ranking.


----------



## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

niss said:


> It is overly simplistic to blame the educational system as the sole, or even primary reason for our standings in this ranking.


Nowhere within my post does it state "_the educational system is *the sole* / primary reason to blame_" for the standing(s) in the ranking. There is,_ indeed_, *many more* where that came from.


----------



## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

ae1905 said:


> the us would have to have a higher percentage of conceptual people
> than its competitors or its competitors' high schools would have to be more conceptual if a literal-conceptual dichotomy was the explanation for the results
> 
> I suspect the reason is the us is simultaneously pulled down by the size of its population and the unevenness of its support for public schools, particularly in poorer neighborhoods where students often are not well-served and tend to underperform; and pulled up by the influx of talented students from abroad, many of whom remain in the us after graduation, taking positions in academia and raising the quality of its research (colleges are ultimately judged by the quality of their research--ie, professors and grad students)


Yeah, as far as I know there isn't a testable dichotomy along those lines that could identify the porportion of 'conceptual' vs 'literal' people or schools, so it's probably completely speculative for now. :/

So the poorer neighborhoods would have to be having a larger impact in K-12 than the # of talented students from abroad who may have come in prior to college and could bring the average up earlier on, if they were educated in their native countries prior. Otherwise, the net effect on K-12 would be 0/close to 0, rather than negative.


----------



## tinyheart (Jun 17, 2016)




----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Scoobyscoob said:


> The wikipedia article you linked about PISA specifically stated that it focuses on "workforce knowledge" as opposed to "curriculum knowledge" as is with the TIMSS. I'd agree that student understanding should be tested but I also believe that tests should just cut out the silly application problems and simply introduce more word problems if real world difficulty needs to be included. Solving a math problem involving Klaus and his salmon farm just seems silly when the same problem could be explained as a word problem that stresses understanding on how to apply math concepts. I suppose linking related concepts is a difficulty for some but considering most people don't need to understand trigonometry at the level of a structural engineer, that's not really a problem, IMO. I wouldn't expect my grocer to understand what a load bearing structure is, but instead know what's fresh this week.


I doubt students are taught anything about structural analysis or any other workplace tasks; that isn't the point...the point, again, is to test students' ability to recognize and apply the math and science they've been taught to real world problems they are _unfamiliar _with (but which are simplified enough that they can still understand)...I think this is a superior test of learning and comprehension because it demands students _understand principles _and be able to apply them in settings_ outside of the classrooms and textbooks_ where they were taught, which, after all, _is _what we want students to be able to do, right?...that's the main reason we teach them in the first place



> Upon re-reading what I wrote, I must've been pretty tired last night. I meant I don't think it's a good idea pigeon holing students into more practical fields at too young an age. IMO, 15 is too young an age to suggest to students to start considering a practical career.


I don't disagree...but pisa doesn't demand that students pick a career...it only demands that students demonstrate they really understand and can apply english, math, and science to real world problems



> Well, the few local Entrepreneurship programs offered by schools in the area I live all intertwine technology, science and math with their Entrepreneurship programs. All of the programs I've looked into are magnet programs and teach at an accelerated pace from normal schools. To me, entrepreneurial programs seem like a place where like-minded individuals can attend class together and act as an idea incubator and to bounce ideas off one another. Also, there's a focus on meeting older entrepreneurs and business leaders and receiving advice and guidance is another key aspect. Kind of cool that such programs exist and if my daughter continues to show an interest in becoming an entrepreneur then by all means I'll do everything I can to send her to such a school.
> 
> So overall such programs seem to focus on teaching the basics of starting your own business and trying to give an aspiring entrepreneur advice and connections to be off to a good start at least.


was that school started by silicon valley investors?...it sounds like something venture capitalists would create so they could send their kids there

and does it work?...have any notable companies come out of these programs?...are there alumni we may have heard about?


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Yeah, as far as I know there isn't a testable dichotomy along those lines that could identify the porportion of 'conceptual' vs 'literal' people or schools, so it's probably completely speculative for now. :/
> 
> So the poorer neighborhoods would have to be having a larger impact in K-12 than the # of talented students from abroad who may have come in prior to college and could bring the average up earlier on, if they were educated in their native countries prior. Otherwise, the net effect on K-12 would be 0/close to 0, rather than negative.


I was talking about foreign students who come here for college, especially for graduate school...students coming here for middle or high school are probably immigrating to the us with their families, and it isn't obvious they are necessarily better students since their academic abilities are not a condition of their admission to the country (as far as I know)...if their abilities are better than average, however, they would help raise the level, but not enough, apparently, to raise the country's score on pisa or to close the gap with us college outperformance


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Statecraft Demystifier said:


> Ah! Outstanding question! *rubs hands*
> 
> Most people aren't aware that certain video games cover extremely in-depth topics with considerable detail. Most video games are simple and aren't meant to be informative beyond a tiny measure. But a few go far beyond that.
> 
> ...


did you check other sources to confirm the information was true?...sci fi, for example, is famous for getting science wrong...screenplay writers aren't known for their science chops...I imagine video game creators are no different


----------



## tinyheart (Jun 17, 2016)

ae1905 said:


> the us would have to have a higher percentage of conceptual people
> than its competitors or its competitors' high schools would have to be more conceptual if a literal-conceptual dichotomy was the explanation for the results
> 
> I suspect the reason is the us is simultaneously pulled down by the size of its population and the unevenness of its support for public schools, particularly in poorer neighborhoods where students often are not well-served and tend to underperform; and pulled up by the influx of talented students from abroad, many of whom remain in the us after graduation, taking positions in academia and raising the quality of its research (colleges are ultimately judged by the quality of their research--ie, professors and grad students)


So you're saying the reason I'm taking INTRODUCTORY ALGEBRA AT AGE 21 FOR THE FIFTH FRIGGIN TIME is because I'm poor?

.......makes sense.

A few of my teachers weren't bad teachers, but still I couldn't grasp any of what they said. The class was pretty big with lots of my peers not interested in learning at all. And since I get distracted easily...

What messed me up the most was my sophomore year, where they kinda forced my old lady teacher to start the year with us even though she had long wanted to retire (she left a few days after).
They gave us a guy who was teaching well enough, but was a beta male amidst chaotic alpha teenage males, and one female that got him fired (not his fault). We got a second sub who didn't teach us. She only taught those who "wanted to learn." I wanted to learn too, but how could I when she has her little circle of well-behaved students taking private lessons and the rest of us wanting to learn but can't really go inside that bubble of theirs (she also didn't seem like she was interested in the rest of us).
She eventually gave up and left.
By that time we had only a few months left, we barely learned ANYTHING. None of us really cared for a new teacher because...why? A lady who wasn't even a teacher but a staff member became so upset that we weren't being taught she stormed in, put those boys in check, and taught. But yeah...two months left of school...

Same thing in my third introductory algebra class (passed but learned nothing in Geometry, went to Alg 2, failed the whole thing because I knew nothing, had to take intro alg in senior year) where my teacher left and we were given a sub.

Outside of math this happened in my US History class, my Italian class, and several other classes I can't remember where they basically housed us ignorant teenagers with nothing to do. And other teachers who were there the whole year but likewise didn't teach. Why all of this? Because they looked at us and saw that it won't matter. We won't become anything. They didn't care. Just because we're being disruptive or acting up or not attending class regularly doesn't mean we don't want to learn.

I really wanted to make a thread on how the way math is generally taught doesn't suit some people, and if there are alternative ways of learning math so that the rest of us learning disorder kids don't feel stupid and useless while trying to finish up the last bit of math homework that was supposed to be due today...


----------



## Statecraft Demystifier (Dec 12, 2016)

ae1905 said:


> did you check other sources to confirm the information was true?...sci fi, for example, is famous for getting science wrong...screenplay writers aren't known for their science chops...I imagine video game creators are no different


Dates, metadata, and things of that nature are all spot on. Even so, the focus of knowledge in sci-fi video games is largely conceptual, but in MGS there is a large amount of factual as well. The advantage to that is it brings interest and a unique perspective toward learning from more legitimate sources. I'd say sci-fi in general is a great motivator. Bucky Barnes gave me interest in bionics. Iron Man, in powered exoskeletons. etc...


----------



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ae1905 said:


> I doubt students are taught anything about structural analysis or any other workplace tasks; that isn't the point...the point, again, is to test students' ability to recognize and apply the math and science they've been taught to real world problems they are _unfamiliar _with (but which are simplified enough that they can still understand)...I think this is a superior test of learning and comprehension because it demands students _understand principles _and be able to apply them in settings_ outside of the classrooms and textbooks_ where they were taught, which, after all, _is _what we want students to be able to do, right?...that's the main reason we teach them in the first place


Right. I think we'll have to chalk this up to differences in opinion on which teaching method is better. To me, PISA and tests like PISA are silly and try too hard to seem modern and up-to-date. The US' educational system is outdated and every international test is showing it as being outdated. It's just that PISA seems to exaggerate how bad the US' K-12 educational system is. This is probably a bit of a bias on my part but I tend to view OECD rankings with quite a bit of skepticism. Often times, the OECD come up with metrics seemingly cynically designed to make the US look poor on international rankings. Take the HDI for example, despite our crappy K-12 educational system, high disparities of wealth, gender gaps, race gaps, etcetc the US still has an extremely HDI. Which means that this country is still a great place to live, despite all of the other OECD rankings that would suggest otherwise. So of course since the HDI showed the US in a positive light, the OECD had to update the HDI a few years later to also factor in a rather BS inequality index which knocks the US down to a more middling ranking on an HDI adjusted for inequality. 

So yeah, I'd prefer to look at TIMSS than PISA when deciding what the state of the current system is for our children. Otherwise yes, of course I want all children raised in the US to be educated and educated well. As a parent I would never want my child to receive a poor education. I simply similarly believe that we need to stop thinking that this country is going to implode on itself and introduce more positivity into the dialogue when it comes to education and educational reform in the US.



ae1905 said:


> I don't disagree...but pisa doesn't demand that students pick a career...it only demands that students demonstrate they really understand and can apply english, math, and science to real world problems


Yes, it's mainly how the test is framed that I'm not really liking. Especially since PISA tries to model itself on the more established TIMSS but going about it in what I think is a silly way in framing questions. Again, I think we'll just have to chalk up our differences to differing opinions, as both are established international tests.



ae1905 said:


> was that school started by silicon valley investors?...it sounds like something venture capitalists would create so they could send their kids there
> 
> and does it work?...have any notable companies come out of these programs?...are there alumni we may have heard about?


I wouldn't be surprised if the many entrepreneurial schools in Silicon Valley were started by investors. Hahah yeah, I suppose wealthy venture capitalists would see value in creating a more conducive environment for their children without sending them to private schools. I live in LA though and the focus here in urban revitalization and incubating new growth industries. A lot of alumni from entrepreneurial schools here focus on sending kids to college, who would then presumably come back and found start ups. There are many who have come back to form biotech startups, trade and finance startups and various other fields here in entertainment.

Well, it's been a bit difficult finding statistics on effectiveness at a secondary school level but on the collegiate level, entrepreneurship programs have shown great success at fostering budding entrepreneurs. The top 10 schools in the US with entrepreneurship programs have students all raising venture funding in the hundreds of millions of dollars. As for a household name, I believe Mark Cuban would be a wildly successful example of someone who wanted to be an entrepreneur and became successful in the process. Otherwise, it's difficult to find a name that would be recognizable.


----------



## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

If USA can convenience the rest of the World that YouTube is viable source for education. Then maybe USA can break into top 10 at least one day


----------



## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

ae1905 said:


> I was talking about foreign students who come here for college, especially for graduate school...students coming here for middle or high school are probably immigrating to the us with their families, and it isn't obvious they are necessarily better students since their academic abilities are not a condition of their admission to the country (as far as I know)...if their abilities are better than average, however, they would help raise the level, but not enough, apparently, to raise the country's score on pisa or to close the gap with us college outperformance







Since they mentioned the job security of teachers it made me think about the fact that higher education instructors are held more accountable with each other (e.g. peer review), because although many higher education institutions are state-funded (not unlike K-12), they still have to follow the general standards of being a part of academia. Basically they are bound perhaps also on an international level, by their areas of specialization. There's less room for poor teaching and misinformation...so maybe it's better that they are measured by research output more than test scores. The quality of their research tends to impact the quality of their teaching, as the latter is often a reiteration of the former. Otoh it'd be more difficult to pin the blame on a teacher for student performance on tests.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Right. I think we'll have to chalk this up to differences in opinion on which teaching method is better. To me, PISA and tests like PISA are silly and try too hard to seem modern and up-to-date. The US' educational system is outdated and every international test is showing it as being outdated. It's just that PISA seems to exaggerate how bad the US' K-12 educational system is. This is probably a bit of a bias on my part but I tend to view OECD rankings with quite a bit of skepticism. Often times, the OECD come up with metrics seemingly cynically designed to make the US look poor on international rankings. Take the HDI for example, despite our crappy K-12 educational system, high disparities of wealth, gender gaps, race gaps, etcetc the US still has an extremely HDI. Which means that this country is still a great place to live, despite all of the other OECD rankings that would suggest otherwise. So of course since the HDI showed the US in a positive light, the OECD had to update the HDI a few years later to also factor in a rather BS inequality index which knocks the US down to a more middling ranking on an HDI adjusted for inequality.


are they wrong, though?....here's one example of how well educated americans are



> Depressing Survey Results Show How Extremely Stupid America Has Become
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and then there's this:














scoobydoo said:


> ]
> So yeah, I'd prefer to look at TIMSS than PISA when deciding what the state of the current system is for our children. Otherwise yes, of course I want all children raised in the US to be educated and educated well. As a parent I would never want my child to receive a poor education. I simply similarly believe that we need to stop thinking that this country is going to implode on itself and introduce more positivity into the dialogue when it comes to education and educational reform in the US.
> 
> Yes, it's mainly how the test is framed that I'm not really liking. Especially since PISA tries to model itself on the more established TIMSS but going about it in what I think is a silly way in framing questions. Again, I think we'll just have to chalk up our differences to differing opinions, as both are established international tests.


Te vs Ti...you're happy with testing specifically for classroom learning...I'm not happy unless real understanding is demonstrated



> I wouldn't be surprised if the many entrepreneurial schools in Silicon Valley were started by investors. Hahah yeah, I suppose wealthy venture capitalists would see value in creating a more conducive environment for their children without sending them to private schools. I live in LA though and the focus here in urban revitalization and incubating new growth industries. A lot of alumni from entrepreneurial schools here focus on sending kids to college, who would then presumably come back and found start ups. There are many who have come back to form biotech startups, trade and finance startups and various other fields here in entertainment.
> 
> Well, it's been a bit difficult finding statistics on effectiveness at a secondary school level but on the collegiate level, entrepreneurship programs have shown great success at fostering budding entrepreneurs. *The top 10 schools in the US with entrepreneurship programs have students all raising venture funding in the hundreds of millions of dollars.* As for a household name, I believe Mark Cuban would be a wildly successful example of someone who wanted to be an entrepreneur and became successful in the process. Otherwise, it's difficult to find a name that would be recognizable.


like this?

UCLA VC Fund - Fostering Entrepreneurship


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Since they mentioned the job security of teachers it made me think about the fact that higher education instructors are held more accountable with each other (e.g. peer review), because although many higher education institutions are state-funded (not unlike K-12), they still have to follow the general standards of being a part of academia. Basically they are bound perhaps also on an international level, by their areas of specialization. There's less room for poor teaching and misinformation...so maybe it's better that they are measured by research output more than test scores. The quality of their research tends to impact the quality of their teaching, as the latter is often a reiteration of the former. Otoh it'd be more difficult to pin the blame on a teacher for student performance on tests.


when I said american higher education is the best, I meant the best at producing impactful research...american schools like mit, harvard, stanford, and berkeley are routinely ranked in the top 10 in the world because of the quality of their research--ie, faculty and grad students...it's here where america especially benefits from inflows of students from abroad

I'm not so certain american colleges do as good a job at teaching, though, especially its undergrads...undergrad curricula are fairly standardized across the world and is not difficult even for mediocre instructors to teach...in fact, a high percentage of instructors in american colleges are not even tenured or on the tenure track, rather, they're adjunct staff hired specifically to teach and not to do research...I don't know if this is the situation in other countries?...it may be the case that students in china or south korea are taught mostly by tenured professors who do research while many american students are taught by adjunct professors who don't



> *Tenured College Professors (in 1 Chart)*
> 
> For almost 40 years, we've been witnessing the rise of the adjuncts.
> 
> ...


----------



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ae1905 said:


> are they wrong, though?....here's one example of how well educated americans are
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


The author rails against certain socioeconomic groups as evidence of failure of the American educational system. Yet the ETS study he cites say the highest scoring students in the US are American born and of a certain socioeconomic level. So while I won't say the tests are wrong, but he completely fails to point out where the educational system is failing students. I mean, that's modern day PC culture, right? Ignore the root cause and blame everything but the actual source of inequality.

It's not even like it's a guarded secret either to anyone who can do a little digging: NAEP - 2015 Mathematics & Reading Assessments



> and then there's this:


The majority of Americans didn't even vote for Trump. What's your point?

Also, for a lot of the things I don't like Trump for, he is right about education in this country. In some parts of the country, education is failing its students, and it's not only failing them but also turning them off to higher education, which ultimately hurts everyone, including rankings in international rankings.



> Te vs Ti...you're happy with testing specifically for classroom learning...I'm not happy unless real understanding is demonstrated


Kind of. I'm saying get rid of the hokey Te parts and just focus on testing understanding. Or, if Te understanding is needed, then introduce more word problems. Simple.



> like this?
> 
> UCLA VC Fund - Fostering Entrepreneurship


Well, yes and no. School operated VC funds normally are for incubating innovation from the lab into becoming a startup. My school had a similar fund and it was mainly for funding post-grads and faculty who wanted to commercialize a technology. The numbers I was looking at seemed to suggest undergraduates raising private VC funds. https://www.entrepreneur.com/topcolleges Most research universities that have ties and/or a network of people in industry have such funds. They usually don't provide much past seed funding though, so raising private venture funds is usually still a necessity.

Although we need to be realistic here as to what such programs are trying to accomplish. Anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur is going to become one, whether they go to school for it or not. The type of entrepreneurship schools like to foster are the more risky and education heavy tech entrepreneurship. Which is why such programs exist: to leverage the school's network and connections to business and industry to give an entrepreneur a leg up on the competition.


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Scoobyscoob said:


> The author rails against certain socioeconomic groups as evidence of failure of the American educational system. *Yet the ETS study he cites say the highest scoring students in the US are American born and of a certain socioeconomic level. *So while I won't say the tests are wrong, but he completely fails to point out where the educational system is failing students. I mean, that's modern day PC culture, right? Ignore the root cause and blame everything but the actual source of inequality.
> 
> It's not even like it's a guarded secret either to anyone who can do a little digging: NAEP - 2015 Mathematics & Reading Assessments


do you seriously think the article claims _all _americans are stupid and that there are no good educational results in america?



> Also, for a lot of the things I don't like Trump for, he is right about education in this country. *In some parts of the country, education is failing its students, *and it's not only failing them but also turning them off to higher education, which ultimately hurts everyone, including rankings in international rankings.


yes, exactly...that's the point that article underscores



> The majority of Americans didn't even vote for Trump. What's your point?


does a majority have to vote for trump to call america's education system into question?...isn't 59 million enough?...after all, it was enough to make him the most powerful (and dangerous) man on earth...and it was more than enough to make people outside of the us wonder how dumb americans are



> Kind of. I'm saying get rid of the hokey Te parts and just focus on testing understanding. Or, if Te understanding is needed, then introduce more *word problems*. Simple.


don't they use words to describe the problems?...I don't know what you mean by "word problems"?

and why do you think repeating the same kinds of texbook problems students are trained to solve is a better test of understanding than reframing the problems in terms they have not seen before?...why isn't the ability to adapt to new and nominally different problems a better test of understsanding?


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, yes and no. School operated VC funds normally are for incubating innovation from the lab into becoming a startup. My school had a similar fund and it was mainly for funding post-grads and faculty who wanted to commercialize a technology. The numbers I was looking at seemed to suggest *undergraduates raising private VC funds*. https://www.entrepreneur.com/topcolleges Most research universities that have ties and/or a network of people in industry have such funds. They usually don't provide much past seed funding though, so raising private venture funds is usually still a necessity.
> 
> Although we need to be realistic here as to what such programs are trying to accomplish. Anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur is going to become one, whether they go to school for it or not. The type of entrepreneurship schools like to foster are the more risky and education heavy tech entrepreneurship. Which is why such programs exist: to leverage the school's network and connections to business and industry to give an entrepreneur a leg up on the competition.


here's a vc fund actually _managed _by students at the university of utah (which is a top 25 school for entrepreneurship)...the students _invest _in startups, though, and are not entrepreneurs themselves:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/cheryls...niversity-venture-fund-says-yes/#7b45345a1c70


----------



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

db


----------

