# Yet Another Study Says Vitamin Supplements Are Worthless



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

*Yet Another Study Says Vitamin Supplements Are Worthless


*New research reaffirms the counterintuitive notion that vitamin and mineral supplements aren’t the magical panacea we’ve been led to believe. It’s something that researchers have been finding for years, and a meta-analysis, summarizing the findings of 179 individual studies, published on Monday in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology found that most common vitamins provide precisely zero benefit to those taking them.


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## soop (Aug 6, 2016)

Did you even look at the study...i mean you didnt even use your own words in this thread, you just copy pastad from what is essentially an opinion piece.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Calcium, D3, and potassium have helped to reduce leg cramps. Since I was a kid, pointing my toes while stretching would be insta-cramps. Not anymore. Vit C has helped to reduce dryness in my skin, both face and body to the degree of halving the amount.

So, the study might be right relative to the three aspects they studied for. But they're dead wrong for other issues.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

They not useless if you have a deficiency, but it also depends on how the vitamin is absorbed. Some are water soluble, which are less likely to be absorbed by the body than fat soluble ones when they are in excess. 

The supplement labels themselves recommend that they should not be used to substitute a healthy diet.

Also the absorption of minerals depends on vitamins (e.g vitamin D + calcium) so perhaps the lack of a mineral intake is responsible.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

I love articles that say "because science says so"

"Science" is becoming a new religion because no one reads articles and don't have an ability to think for themselves.
There are various studies showing vitamin's being more effective at treating conditions than the medications we use for the same conditions.

"Science" in the US is largely flawed as special interest groups are peddling their pharma-candy and don't want people to eat right or exercise because that would slow down the drug flurry that is the US.


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## PiT (May 6, 2017)

NT the DC said:


> I love articles that say "because science says so"
> 
> "Science" is becoming a new religion because no one reads articles and don't have an ability to think for themselves.
> There are various studies showing vitamin's being more effective at treating conditions than the medications we use for the same conditions.
> ...


I was talking to a coworker recently about how most people see science as being indistinguishable from magic, hence the proliferation of tech scams making claims that are blatantly impossible (e.g. Theranos). When challenged on this the backers of these inventors will throw out a red herring of claiming that [past invention] was also said to be impossible, as if that matters when it can be readily demonstrated that the claims made in the present violate physical laws or are otherwise invalidated by empirical data.

This widespread ignorance of science is especially dangerous in the modern era of crowdfunding, government grants, and venture capital, because millions and even billions of dollars get thrown at projects that will never achieve their goals by gullible people who believe any snake oil salesman that comes to town "because science".


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## Ermenegildo (Feb 25, 2014)

*Vitamin and Mineral Supplements*

1. Recommended diet



The study says said:


> What is generally recommended internationally is consumption of a good diet as part of a healthy lifestyle. The recent science-based report of the U.S. Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee, also concerned with CVD risk reduction, *recommended 3 dietary patterns:* 1) a healthy American diet low in saturated fat, trans fat, and red meat, but high in fruit and vegetables; 2) a Mediterranean diet; and 3) a vegetarian diet. These diets, with their accompanying recommendations, continue the move toward more plant-based diets that are relatively rich in vitamins and minerals, which liberally satisfies requirements (Dietary Reference Intakes) but which are still below the tolerable upper levels of intake of the recommended range in which adverse effects may be seen. Thus, for the general public, the focus has been on meeting requirements through diet, rather than supplements.


2. Vitamins and minerals are useful for the prevention and treatment of micronutrient deficiencies



The study says said:


> Treatment and prevention of micronutrient deficiencies with vitamins and minerals in the last two-and-a-half centuries are *among the most dramatic achievements in the history of nutritional science*. The treatment of scurvy with citrus fruit (vitamin C) by the British Naval Surgeon James Lind in 1747 was, perhaps, the first clinical trial ever conducted, in which 12 sailors who had scurvy were (presumably randomly) selected to receive 1 of 6 treatments (2 sailors) per treatment.
> 
> However, interest in micronutrients has shifted recently from *prevention of classic deficiency states* to *prevention of possible subclinical deficiencies and promotion of overall health and longevity* using supplemental vitamins and minerals (supplement use). Here, the data are less clear, but supplement use is widespread.





Discover = Science for the curious said:


> New research reaffirms the counterintuitive notion that vitamin and mineral supplements *aren’t the magical panacea* we’ve been led to believe.


3. The abstract of the study can be misleading



The study says said:


> The authors identified individual randomized controlled trials from previous meta-analyses and additional searches, and then performed meta-analyses on cardiovascular disease outcomes and all-cause mortality. The authors assessed publications from 2012, both before and including the U.S. Preventive Service Task Force review. Their systematic reviews and meta-analyses showed generally moderate- or low-quality evidence for preventive benefits (folic acid for total cardiovascular disease, folic acid and B-vitamins for stroke), no effect (multivitamins, vitamins C, D, β-carotene, calcium, and selenium), or increased risk (antioxidant mixtures and niacin [with a statin] for all-cause mortality).
> 
> *Conclusive evidence for the benefit of any supplement across all dietary backgrounds (including deficiency and sufficiency) was not demonstrated*; therefore, any benefits seen must be balanced against possible risks. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109718345601


The last sentence of the abstract seems to say that even in cases of (micronutrient) deficiency there is no benefit to taking micronutrients, but the first paragraph of the study makes it clear that the contrary is true, so the abstract really says that micronutrient deficiencies are irrelevant only "for cardiovascular disease outcomes and all-cause mortality". 



Discover: Science for the curious said:


> Yet Another Study Says Vitamin Supplements *Are Worthless*
> 
> Specifically, the study concluded that multivitamins, as well as calcium, and vitamins C and D *are essentially powerless*. They do no harm, but they might as well be placebos. These findings run contrary to popular wisdom, which instructs us to load up on supplements to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer and premature death.


Overworked and underpaid? Even if Cody Cottier is not responsible for the headline he misrepresented the study.


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## Crystal Winter Dream (May 27, 2018)

I think it depends if you actually need them. if you aren't deficient and take them you're just keeping the balances up so you probably won't feel any effects.

I was iron deficient for a while and supplements DID ACTUALLY HELP ME.


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

My issue with vitamin studies is they don't control for supplement quality. 
There's a lot of junk brands out there offering 1,000 times the daily value of nutrients in nonabsorbable forms. 
When do they ever run supplement efficacy studies with carefully developed products? One that comes to mind is Ritual vitamins for women. There are others, but sadly a minority in the market. 
When the consumer doesn't have relevant unaffiliated research to consider during decisions, most throw out the idea of even consulting science.


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## Elvish Lives (Nov 29, 2013)

This is one of the most controversial issues in science that no one talks about. The Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling was thought to have tarnished his legacy by becoming a disciple of vitamin therapy, but recently there's been some walkback on his work. And while there is research that shows that massive dosing of certain vitamins has no benefits, there is also a growing field of genetics that has uncovered a huge swathe of the populace that is in need of therapy with B-vitamins (MTHFR).

One of the other issues to consider here is that most OTC vitamins are junk quality. Anyone who's studied chemistry and done any wet lab work knows that reagent quality is everything. We used to pay $150 for 3 L bottles of reagent-grade HPLC water and $220 for 3 L of hydrochloric acid. The grade of most vitamins available at your local CVS is not anywhere near the quality most people need. I have direct experience with this in treating my MTHFR. Only the highest quality methylcobalamin is effective, and all the rest is the same as taking sugar pill.

It must also be remembered that a vitamin is not a chemical compound but a functionality. Vitamins can have numerous forms. For instance, B12 can be cyanocobalamin, hydroxocobalamin, methylcobalamin, or adenosylcobalamin. So the form is often critical in getting the desired effect.


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## Cal (Sep 29, 2017)

Excuse me, but they are definitely far from worthless. Do you know the amount of money I make each year from selling bottles of normal gummies as vitamin supplements? 1¢ per year. Right now, I have a whopping 9¢ right now, which is more than the average income of the Sentinelese People. Now, does that sound worthless to you?:smug:


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## soop (Aug 6, 2016)

Crystal Winter Dream said:


> I think it depends if you actually need them. if you aren't deficient and take them you're just keeping the balances up so you probably won't feel any effects.
> 
> I was iron deficient for a while and supplements DID ACTUALLY HELP ME.


Same. It made a huge difference.


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## Voyageur (Jun 18, 2018)

Cal said:


> Excuse me, but they are definitely far from worthless. Do you know the amount of money I make each year from selling bottles of normal gummies as vitamin supplements? 1¢ per year. Right now, I have a whopping 9¢ right now, which is more than the average income of the Sentinelese People. Now, does that sound worthless to you?:smug:


May I add my two cents? You'll have a dime, and you'll still have a year's worth of income in case you end up blowing it.


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## Rascal01 (May 22, 2016)

I was difficient in vitamins B and D based on blood test results. Taking the doctor recommended doses has made a huge improvement in memory and overall well being.


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## crazitaco (Apr 9, 2010)

Cal said:


> Excuse me, but they are definitely far from worthless. Do you know the amount of money I make each year from selling bottles of normal gummies as vitamin supplements? 1¢ per year. Right now, I have a whopping 9¢ right now, which is more than the average income of the Sentinelese People. Now, does that sound worthless to you?:smug:


I fucking love vitamin gummies. Gimme


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## poco a poco (Nov 21, 2013)

I mean, they're called SUPPLEMENTS for a reason... they're not supposed to be anyone's main intake of vitamins.
I think a major issue is, people don't realize their DIET provides them with vitamins.
(w/ the exception of people with vitamin deficiencies or anything out of their control)

That being said, I do take iron supplements during my period... but I think supplements are only even REMOTELY relevant for people w/ deficiencies. Other than that... if you're eating a somewhat balanced diet, you're already getting all the vitamins you need LOL


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

poco a poco said:


> I mean, they're called SUPPLEMENTS for a reason... they're not supposed to be anyone's main intake of vitamins.
> I think a major issue is, people don't realize their DIET provides them with vitamins.
> (w/ the exception of people with vitamin deficiencies or anything out of their control)
> 
> That being said, I do take iron supplements during my period... but I think supplements are only even REMOTELY relevant for people w/ deficiencies. Other than that... if you're eating a somewhat balanced diet, you're already getting all the vitamins you need LOL


If you base your vitamin intake on what is just enough to not have a deficiency good luck lol.
Most people don't know what the RDA is really about.
RDA is not a measure of health it's the recommended amount to avoid having a metabolic issue due to a lack of sufficient nutrition - that isn't about health optimization.
The RDA also does not take into consideration that you have any disease process which would require a higher intake to offset the health detriment. 

Most people also have no understanding of what vitamins they get on a daily basis from their diet as they have no idea what foods are high in which vitamin or the amount of foods they should eat to get the "RDA of vitamins". How many people weigh their food? Show of hands?

Should you have a good diet that will provide as much of the vitamins as possible? Of course - there are many things in natural foods that are not in most vitamins such as phytochemicals. So you should focus on eating a good diet.

But someone stating that vitamins should not be a main intake suggests that it's possible to get all your vitamins via diet. That just isn't feasible, especially with a health deficit. It's simply not easy to eat that much food lol. 

For some disease processes studies have shown that high vitamin D supplementation is effective - the amounts of vitamins that are needed for a therapeutic dose is just not realistically able to be obtained via diet. Some goes with vitamin A and C.

The fact of the matter is there isn't a very high death rate from vitamin intake even extreme mega dosing. Drugs taken for health deficits cannot claim the same thing. Always consider the source of your information when it comes to downplaying the importance of vitamin supplementation.


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## poco a poco (Nov 21, 2013)

NT the DC said:


> If you base your vitamin intake on what is just enough to not have a deficiency good luck lol.
> Most people don't know what the RDA is really about.
> RDA is not a measure of health it's the recommended amount to avoid having a metabolic issue due to a lack of sufficient nutrition - that isn't about health optimization.


Good luck? Well thank you, it's working just fine for me.
I never mentioned health optimization or the like. It's more about maintenance than optimization.



> The RDA also does not take into consideration that you have any disease process which would require a higher intake to offset the health detriment.


Hence my disclaimer _"with the exception of people with deficiencies or anything out of their control"_ anything referring to any health issues that would hinder someones ability to take in/absorb vitamins. 




> Most people also have no understanding of what vitamins they get on a daily basis from their diet as they have no idea what foods are high in which vitamin or the amount of foods they should eat to get the "RDA of vitamins". How many people weigh their food? Show of hands?
> 
> Should you have a good diet that will provide as much of the vitamins as possible? Of course - there are many things in natural foods that are not in most vitamins such as phytochemicals. So you should focus on eating a good diet.


Yeah, that goes along with my point that people don't even know they do already get vitamins from food. So if they don't know that, how could they know _how much_ or know how to regulate that?

Well, there shouldn't be a need to regulate except in extreme cases such as deficiencies or eating disorders. It's a pretty simple process.
Where I live, Nutritionists come around to all the public schools each year and teach kids the food pyramid starting in ~2nd grade? maybe 1st? It's a common practice. 
So, most people should have _some_ idea of what a balanced meal looks like. And if not, that information is easily accessible online or at clinics, with pamphlets explaining what a balanced meal contains.




> But someone stating that vitamins should not be a main intake suggests that it's possible to get all your vitamins via diet. That just isn't feasible, especially with a health deficit. It's simply not easy to eat that much food lol.


It _is_ possible, again, this is operating under my "with the exception of deficiencies or health issues" disclaimer. Another example is vegetarians or vegans, it's typically recommended that they take B12. 
I did already mention that they _are_ relevant for people with deficiencies.

They do not benefit a person already getting their vitamins from their diet. And it should not be used _in place of_ the actual foods that contain those vitamins. For example, a person should not skimp out on vitamin-rich foods like fruits and vegetables, then rely on supplements for their vitamins.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/the-best-foods-for-vitamins-and-minerals

"The best approach to ensure you get a variety of vitamins and minerals, and in the proper amounts, is to adopt a broad healthy diet. This involves an emphasis on fruits and vegetables, whole grains, beans and legumes, low-fat protein, and dairy products. The good news is that many common foods contain multiple mineral and vitamin sources, so it is easy to meet your daily needs from everyday meals."

No mention of weighing your food or maintaining a strictly regulated diet. Basically just "check if you're getting these foods and you should be fine".

In sensitive health cases, I think it would be important for people to not try to self-medicate and solve a serious health issue with supplements. They should just go to a clinic for advice.




> For some disease processes studies have shown that high vitamin D supplementation is effective - the amounts of vitamins that are needed for a therapeutic dose is just not realistically able to be obtained via diet. Some goes with vitamin A and C.


That is why they're called supplements. These are not typical daily health issues for the typically healthy person. These are people who _need_ their vitamin intake to be _supplemented_. Not people who believe they need supplements despite already eating a balanced diet. Or people who think they can solve unrelated health issues with supplements.




> The fact of the matter is there isn't a very high death rate from vitamin intake even extreme mega dosing. Drugs taken for health deficits cannot claim the same thing. Always consider the source of your information when it comes to downplaying the importance of vitamin supplementation.


I'll admit, my original post was pretty dismissive. I like to use hyperbole and it exaggerated how "against" supplements I am. :tongue:
I still fully stand by my original points: they're called supplements for a reason. the typical human's intake of vitamins should be primarily from food.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

poco a poco said:


> Good luck? Well thank you, it's working just fine for me.
> I never mentioned health optimization or the like. It's more about maintenance than optimization.
> 
> 
> ...


You wrote a really long winded response.
So allow me to step on my own soap box.

I am not disagreeing with the idea that people should focus on getting their nutrients via healthy food.
I also never made the claim that people should eat like shit and try to supplement the lack of a nutritious diet with vitamins.
If that is the point you're trying to make then I agree 100%.

You did mention something though - the food pyramid.
If you're eating by the food pyramid then that only furthers the concept of nutritional misinformation.
The majority of diet should be grains? Uhm, no. Most breads are vitamin fortified anyway lol.

Also wanted to mention that I felt like going off the anecdotal evidence that "it's working fine for me" was about as valid as saying, "Well I eat donuts 3 days a week and I don't have diabetes so I am pretty sure I am fine".

Living your life thinking "if I eat these foods, I should be fine" might work but if you really care about knowing how much vitamins you're getting from your diet you would measure your food and calculate the vitamins you get from your diet - doing this would include weighing your food.

You seem to be pushing the idea of just eating a group of foods based on the food pyramid and guessing your vitamin intake.
That's the point I was making - unless you measure your food and calculate your vitamin intake you and everyone else has no idea if you have a diet that is getting you the RDA let alone something for optimal health.

You also would have no clue if you were deficient in a vitamin unless you got blood work done. Taking the RDA doesn't equate to having a serum level which is normal. Vitamin D is a good example because it's associated with sunlight more than diet and people get S.A.D. especially in colder climates they're also more prone to catching colds because their vitamin D serum levels are low. I always take more vitamin D in the winter.

The idea I am pushing is that taking some key vitamins and eating a balanced diet is good practice.
There is really no detrimental health impact from taking vitamins.

Look at something like Omega 3s with high EPA and DHA content. 
Wild fish these days can be hyper contaminated with mercury so eating a ton of fish might actually not be great for you especially if your fish is via the radiated pacific ocean, who even knows what kind of impact that has on you?


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## Forest Nymph (Aug 25, 2018)

That's interesting since people with iron deficiencies can overcome it with iron tablets, and there are geriatric vegans with zero B12 deficiencies thanks to B12 sublingual tablets. I used to take hot yoga and Emergen-C can make the difference between someone fainting from electrolyte imbalance and someone being able to walk upright out of the yoga studio.

Multi-vitamins like Centrum might not be beneficial to people who already eat a ton of food, they're pissing the pill down the drain so to speak, but all milk in the United States is supplemented with vitamin D. There's no such thing as "vitamin D milk" in nature, unless you're an infant suckling your mother. Furthermore, the greatest sink of cobalt mining in the world is farmed animals. Farmers who raise animals as livestock feed them B12, cattle being the number one consumer of B12 supplements.

You should always look at who is funding a study, the sample size, etc. Because I can totally see how some supplements are a waste of money but our entire American culture is supplemented, from your kid's box of Rice Krispies to the Clif bar you carry as a snack to the gym, so it would be really impossible to tell such a thing unless you were specifically studying a random population of people who ONLY ate whole foods, no vitamin D milk, no meat that had been fed B12, no Clif bars, do you see what I'm saying?


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## davidwod (Dec 24, 2018)

they're synthetic, we haven't naturally selected long enough to deal with that stuff, just eat raw veg/meat in the most traditional way and you dont need that crap.

It's all brand new stuff, we've never changed physiologically around it like we have trees, dirt, stone, leather, metal, glass etc etc. That and synthetic stuff has alot of hidden chemicals they use to process it so you're looking at ingesting even more weird shit.


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## Lion87 (Jul 15, 2018)

ae1905 said:


> *Yet Another Study Says Vitamin Supplements Are Worthless
> 
> 
> *New research reaffirms the counterintuitive notion that vitamin and mineral supplements aren’t the magical panacea we’ve been led to believe. It’s something that researchers have been finding for years, and a meta-analysis, summarizing the findings of 179 individual studies, published on Monday in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology found that most common vitamins provide precisely zero benefit to those taking them.


I don't agree. too much effidence that vitamins and minerals do help, it's a science and balancing act.


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