# Assertive Types and Optimism



## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

It's pretty common knowledge among enneagram enthusiasts that sevens are known as happy, positive, optimistic individuals; however, based on my experience, I think this is something that applies quite well to all assertive types, though for different reasons.

Threes, for example, often place a big emphasis on thinking positively and visualizing the end goal - success. Sevens are optimistic as a matter of habit, and eights often place great faith in their ability to accomplish things. However, the motivations here differ. When asking a three about why they think positively, you're likely to get a response along the lines of "Positive thoughts bring positive results", an attitude I call "pragmatic optimism". This is likely a result of threes being able to mold their thoughts and image to maximum efficiency to get results. With sevens, since the optimism is a general personality fixation, you might get responses that highlight the positive aspects of the situation while downplaying or ignoring the negatives. With eights, I think the optimism manifests itself in a general sense that they possess the ability to overcome obstacles. This, I think, is part of the eight's attentional pattern, which seeks to minimize obstacles and dangers to preserve the self concept of being strong.

What do you guys think? Do you agree/disagree? If you're an assertive type (or any type, really), what is your general experience with optimism?


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## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't look at things in terms of optimistic and pessimistic - its more a case of realistic judging of the situation, and making the proper call. I am always of the view that I make the right call, and so things will turn out my way.


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## mpobrien (Apr 24, 2012)

Dark Romantic said:


> Threes, for example, often place a big emphasis on thinking positively and visualizing the end goal - success. Sevens are optimistic as a matter of habit, and eights often place great faith in their ability to accomplish things. However, the motivations here differ. When asking a three about why they think positively, you're likely to get a response along the lines of "Positive thoughts bring positive results", an attitude I call "pragmatic optimism". This is likely a result of threes being able to mold their thoughts and image to maximum efficiency to get results.
> 
> What do you guys think? Do you agree/disagree? If you're an assertive type (or any type, really), what is your general experience with optimism?


I agree with you, especially on the "pragmatic optimism" part. I believe that success can be the outcome of almost any situation that one finds themselves in, if one can remain positive through it. One is either a success, or they're a failure. And if one is a failure, they're nothing. In order to optimize my chances of success I would, like you originally stated, mold my image to one of maximum efficiency to get the best results. If I go into something with a negative attitude, there's no chance that I will achieve what I need to. If positivity and success go hand in hand, as I believe they do, then there's no room for negativity - and no room for failure. I like to think I'm optimistic by nature, and that my optimism has led to my successes.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Vanguard said:


> I don't look at things in terms of optimistic and pessimistic - its more a case of realistic judging of the situation, and making the proper call. I am always of the view that I make the right call, and so things will turn out my way.


You're right, the optimism of the eight is also based in a sense that they understand the reality of the situation and can act on it as a result. What I was getting at in the OP, though, is that all assertive types carry an implicit expectation that they will be successful in what they do - which is a fundamentally optimistic viewpoint.


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## Grau the Great (Mar 2, 2012)

Dark Romantic said:


> It's pretty common knowledge among enneagram enthusiasts that sevens are known as happy, positive, optimistic individuals; however, based on my experience, I think this is something that applies quite well to all assertive types, though for different reasons.
> 
> Threes, for example, often place a big emphasis on thinking positively and visualizing the end goal - success. Sevens are optimistic as a matter of habit, and eights often place great faith in their ability to accomplish things. However, the motivations here differ. When asking a three about why they think positively, you're likely to get a response along the lines of "Positive thoughts bring positive results", an attitude I call "pragmatic optimism". This is likely a result of threes being able to mold their thoughts and image to maximum efficiency to get results. With sevens, since the optimism is a general personality fixation, you might get responses that highlight the positive aspects of the situation while downplaying or ignoring the negatives. With eights, I think the optimism manifests itself in a general sense that they possess the ability to overcome obstacles. This, I think, is part of the eight's attentional pattern, which seeks to minimize obstacles and dangers to preserve the self concept of being strong.
> 
> What do you guys think? Do you agree/disagree? If you're an assertive type (or any type, really), what is your general experience with optimism?


I'd always chalked it up to my particular tritype, as I'm a lot more optimistic than I'd expect an 8 to be. But at the same time, yeah, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, especially the part about confidence in ability. _"Don't worry about it, I'll get it done"_ is pretty much my standard response to things, to the point that it can drive more detail-oriented people INSANE.

I can relate to the thoughts you have on both eights and sevens *very* heavily, although I can't relate to the 3 example at all. Makes sense, though, I suppose. xD


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## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

In the sense that I will be successful - yes. But I try to avoid thinking "eh it'll be okay, I'll get it done" which is my first tendency (must be the 7 wing), so I strive to bring myself to reality: like situation checks such as a)what must be done to get to where I want to be )what's in my way c)give me a time frame limit, when to get this done by, to ensure I don't get too lax in my thinking process.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Grau the Great said:


> I'd always chalked it up to my particular tritype, as I'm a lot more optimistic than I'd expect an 8 to be. But at the same time, yeah, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, especially the part about confidence in ability. _"Don't worry about it, I'll get it done"_ is pretty much my standard response to things, to the point that it can drive more detail-oriented people INSANE.


Yeah, I think that's an aspect of the type that doesn't get much airplay, since it's not really a part of the neurotic condition and more like a pleasant side effect. I think this is because the assumption of success expresses itself differently with eights than with sevens or threes (you'll sometimes here about how threes are positive thinkers, but this is usually used to compare them to sevens). With threes and sevens, there's more of a conscious focus on the positive coupled with an openly sunny disposition (I think they both tend to verbalize it more, too), while with eights, it's more of a general feeling of competence that appears more coolheaded. I, for one, don't really feel the need to make an effort to think positive thoughts, I just have a general sense of "oh yeah, I can handle that, no big deal".


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## mpobrien (Apr 24, 2012)

Dark Romantic said:


> Yeah, I think that's an aspect of the type that doesn't get much airplay, since it's not really a part of the neurotic condition and more like a pleasant side effect. I think this is because the assumption of success expresses itself differently with eights than with sevens or threes (you'll sometimes here about how threes are positive thinkers, but this is usually used to compare them to sevens). With threes and sevens, there's more of a conscious focus on the positive coupled with an openly sunny disposition (I think they both tend to verbalize it more, too), while with eights, it's more of a general feeling of competence that appears more coolheaded. I, for one, don't really feel the need to make an effort to think positive thoughts, I just have a general sense of "oh yeah, I can handle that, no big deal".


I think our 3 positivity is different from that of the 7, even though it's used to compare us to them. 7s are, from my understanding, positive because that's a means to happiness and an avoidance of unhappy attitudes. Whereas the 3s positivity is a means to an end; an efficient tool that leads to success. 3s, I think, definitely vocalize our positivity because positivity and optimism are widely regarded as part of a good persona, and can be considered to make person better to be around. Being vocally positive gives 3s a better image, in my opinion. 

I'm not an 8, but I have several 8s in my life which I'm close to, and I also sense the positivity in them a lot. To me, it's one of the things that makes 8s attractive in terms of friendships, relationships, and partnerships . The coolheaded competence you speak of can be appealing, in my opinions, to 3s because it projects confidence and power, both of which 3s want and also seek to exude.

Of course this is all my experience as a 3; someone else may feel otherwise.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

mpobrien said:


> I think our 3 positivity is different from that of the 7, even though it's used to compare us to them. 7s are, from my understanding, positive because that's a means to happiness and an avoidance of unhappy attitudes. Whereas the 3s positivity is a means to an end; an efficient tool that leads to success. 3s, I think, definitely vocalize our positivity because positivity and optimism are widely regarded as part of a good persona, and can be considered to make person better to be around. Being vocally positive gives 3s a better image, in my opinion.


I think the primary difference in expression is that sevens have this way of getting excited about everything (that they haven't already tried and gotten bored of), whether or not it's relevant to what's going on, while threes are much more focused on the thing they want, and maintain a general positive outlook whenever doing something (the excitement doesn't carry over to things that aren't success related, though; I've noticed threes have a pretty one track mind and don't appreciate distraction, one thing that sets them apart from sevens). Also, you're right in that the internal motivations for each type will differ - threes are positive because they know that thinking positively brings success, while sevens are compulsive optimists - optimism is a defense mechanism that protects from emotional pain.



> I'm not an 8, but I have several 8s in my life which I'm close to, and I also sense the positivity in them a lot. To me, it's one of the things that makes 8s attractive in terms of friendships, relationships, and partnerships . The coolheaded competence you speak of can be appealing, in my opinions, to 3s because it projects confidence and power, both of which 3s want and also seek to exude.
> 
> Of course this is all my experience as a 3; someone else may


This has been my experience as well - the eights I've known have all had an assumption that they'll get what they're aiming for, which isn't so much spoken as carried through presence and action. It's a generally assumed confidence.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

i don't know, i consider myself realistic. i'm not pessimistic, but not really optimistic either. i do see myself as being able to withstand anything though. and i have. i've gotten into some trouble in life at times but i've always come out on the other side. 

but it doesn't really happen in terms of minimizing obstacles. if i minimized the danger i would underestimate it, and that doesn't happen. i actually tend to counteract the danger as if it was worse than it really is. and as a result i overpower my response. if something goes bad i take immediate full-force action and continue to take action until the bad stuff has been overcome. this is how it is. 

i don't think it's fundamentally optimistic. when i'm in trouble i am well aware that things can end up not in my favor. an optimistic person would expect things will turn out good. i first have to do stuff in order for things to turn out good. that's realistic approach. i have no beliefs. i know things can turn out good and they can turn out bad. but it is that even if they do turn out bad i will take some other action to neutralize that effect in turn and thus eventually i will arrive at a place where i have come out on the other side of it. it's just logic. an 8 just won't put up with uncomfortable circumstances for long. they take action until they're out of that situation and they know it. that's essentially where the ultimate 'being able to withstand anything' is coming from.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

I've had such a hard time explaining my relationship with optimism on here.

Whenever that word is said, people seem to automatically think rose colored glasses (which I definitely do NOT have). My optimism comes from the fact that I'm _realistic_, I can see more than one side of the situation- I see flaws, weakness and strengths, and that keeps me in the _"I can handle this_ mentality. I never question my abilities, since I my observation makes me comfortable with what's in front of me. Even if I can't "observe" I'm pretty good at problem solving and pulling things out of my hat, which probably adds to what whole _"She's not bothered by this, she knows what she's doing"_ mentality.


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## mpobrien (Apr 24, 2012)

I think it's really interesting to see that the majority of the 8s who've posted on this thread have referred to themselves as "realistic", rather than "optimistic". Maybe when it comes down to it, only the 7s can be considered to be_ truly_ optimistic. They don't necessarily see all the sides of a situation like @voicetrocity said, but really all the positive sides; again, the defense mechanism to avoid pain. I would even go so far as to rename 3 optimism as "efficiency". "If a positive attitude brings positive results then I will be optimistic, even if that's not necessarily how I feel about this project."


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

mpobrien said:


> I think it's really interesting to see that the majority of the 8s who've posted on this thread have referred to themselves as "realistic", rather than "optimistic". Maybe when it comes down to it, only the 7s can be considered to be_ truly_ optimistic. They don't necessarily see all the sides of a situation like @voicetrocity said, but really all the positive sides; again, the defense mechanism to avoid pain. I would even go so far as to rename 3 optimism as "efficiency". "If a positive attitude brings positive results then I will be optimistic, even if that's not necessarily how I feel about this project."


Yeah, and I think the reason why is that optimism is usually associated with baseless wishful thinking, something which eights and threes are not prone to. Realism is something important to eights; we aren't "pie-in-the-sky" thinkers by any means.
@meridiannight: I should be clear; minimizing obstacles does not mean pretending they don't exist. That's more in line with sevens, and the other positive outlook types. It's more along the line of being willing to take calculated risks and assuming that one can handle the fallout. It can, however, result in overestimating one's strength - something which I think is a lesson learned through experience more than anything. As @Vanguard alluded to, it's easy to fall into the trap of assuming you will prevail by virtue of being you - a trap that successful people of all types fall into, but one which is in line with the assumed competence of the eight (Napoleon, anyone?). This is a flaw that should be guarded against and compensated by making an extra effort to stay connected to reality.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Dark Romantic said:


> It's pretty common knowledge among enneagram enthusiasts that sevens are known as happy, positive, optimistic individuals; however, based on my experience, I think this is something that applies quite well to all assertive types, though for different reasons.
> Threes, for example, often place a big emphasis on thinking positively and visualizing the end goal - success. Sevens are optimistic as a matter of habit, and eights often place great faith in their ability to accomplish things. However, the motivations here differ. When asking a three about why they think positively, you're likely to get a response along the lines of "Positive thoughts bring positive results", an attitude I call "pragmatic optimism". This is likely a result of threes being able to mold their thoughts and image to maximum efficiency to get results. With sevens, since the optimism is a general personality fixation, you might get responses that highlight the positive aspects of the situation while downplaying or ignoring the negatives. With eights, I think the optimism manifests itself in a general sense that they possess the ability to overcome obstacles. This, I think, is part of the eight's attentional pattern, which seeks to minimize obstacles and dangers to preserve the self concept of being strong.
> What do you guys think? Do you agree/disagree? If you're an assertive type (or any type, really), what is your general experience with optimism?


I think what you're noticing is 
- high serotonin levels, ie, high levels of motivation and a desire to reap rewards
- a subtle arrogance about them, almost as if they walk into any situation thinking "psh! I got this!"
- a general "who cares" attitude about most things. Id types aren't likely to worry much about most things or let negative occurrences hold them down for long


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## Lotan (Aug 10, 2012)

Generally I just tend to overestimate what I can do and underestimate the risks. I assume I'll be able to work things out no matter what I do. I don't think I come off as happier than anyone else and my disposition isn't exactly sunny, but I'm pretty hard to shake or put in a genuinely bad mood, too.

With assertive types I think there's usually at least some general confidence that they're capable of whatever they put their minds to.


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## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

I consider myself a realist really. Sure, I'm full of myself and have grandiose visions about my abilities and my "destiny", but really they are all realistic visions despite the grandiosity...and they're definitely doable and I know the steps necessary to accomplish these visions and even if there are parts of the operation that I don't know yet, I will make it my business to know it sooner or later. 

I dream big but I know how to accomplish those big dreams within realistic bounds. I dream big, but I don't sugarcoat things or perceive things to be better than it really is. If something bad happens then something bad happens. Deal with it and turn it around such that things are once again in an upward trend at an uber fast speed. I make judgments based on facts not on fiction. 

In terms of the correlation between positivism/realism/negativism and the E-gram I'd actually posit the following:

Positive Outlook: E7, E2, E9
Realist Outlook: E5, E3, E8
Negative Outlook: E6, E4, E1

I am therefore in the triple realist outlook triad as are 2 of the "assertive" types.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

childofprodigy said:


> I consider myself a realist really. Sure, I'm full of myself and have grandiose visions about my abilities and my "destiny", but really they are all realistic visions despite the grandiosity...and they're definitely doable and I know the steps necessary to accomplish these visions and even if there are parts of the operation that I don't know yet, I will make it my business to know it sooner or later.
> 
> I dream big but I know how to accomplish those big dreams within realistic bounds. I dream big, but I don't sugarcoat things or perceive things to be better than it really is. If something bad happens then something bad happens. Deal with it and turn it around such that things are once again in an upward trend at an uber fast speed. I make judgments based on facts not on fiction.
> 
> ...


Interesting outlook (and type categories). I actually see realism as measurable on a different scale than optimism/pessimism. You can be optimistic and realistic, pessimistic and realistic, or, conversely, either of the two and quite unrealistic. I'm defining optimism here as believing that one will succeed, independently of whether such belief is justified or not by the circumstances. I do share the same outlook, in that I don't see myself as an "optimist", however, it's hard to deny that what you've said here is optimistic, however well justified that optimism is by reality.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Dark Romantic
if that's how you would define optimistic, then I agree. 
I think that the Id types, regardless of which center they are in, have a stronger connection to their gut (instincts, drive, sexual impulses etc). I'm a 7w6 and I identify with the gut center as much or more as the head center (my anxiety is subtle and for the most part isn't a very large force in my life). 8, being both a gut type and Id, is probably the most archetypal gut type.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Dark Romantic
> if that's how you would define optimistic, then I agree.
> I think that the Id types, regardless of which center they are in, have a stronger connection to their gut (instincts, drive, sexual impulses etc). I'm a 7w6 and I identify with the gut center as much or more as the head center (my anxiety is subtle and for the most part isn't a very large force in my life). 8, being both a gut type and Id, is probably the most archetypal gut type.


Yes, that's exactly what I meant. It's a sense that they all share of being able to take care of themselves and meet life's challenges. The assertive types are the types most at home in the world around them, and because of this sense of confidence (based either in pragmatism, compulsive optimism, or realistic appraisal), believe that they can achieve their goals.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I think what you're noticing is
> - high serotonin levels, ie, high levels of motivation and a desire to reap rewards


That's actually Dopamine =) Serotonin would be 7, 9, 2.


DR, I think it depends on your definition of Optimism (skimmed _waaay_ too fast past these posts) but I think what distinguishes Sevens from the other two, is that our optimism is almost a defense mechanism (e.g. rationalization). If my thoughts wander into negativity, I tend to ignore them.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

A few questions to you id types:

*1.* Which assertive type would you say is most realistic in their goals?

*2.* Can you recognize when your optimism becomes unrealistic, or is it something you realize in retrospect?

*3. *Would you say there is a dark side to that optimism? What has been your personal experience?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Spades said:


> That's actually Dopamine =) Serotonin would be 7, 9, 2.
> DR, I think it depends on your definition of Optimism (skimmed _waaay_ too fast past these posts) but I think what distinguishes Sevens from the other two, is that our optimism is almost a defense mechanism (e.g. rationalization). If my thoughts wander into negativity, I tend to ignore them.


Ah, I stand corrected =)


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Spades said:


> That's actually Dopamine =) Serotonin would be 7, 9, 2.
> 
> 
> DR, I think it depends on your definition of Optimism (skimmed _waaay_ too fast past these posts) but I think what distinguishes Sevens from the other two, is that our optimism is almost a defense mechanism (e.g. rationalization). If my thoughts wander into negativity, I tend to ignore them.


My definition of optimism here is simply expecting a positive outcome, and covers pragmatic optimism (threes), compulsive optimism (sevens), and realistic optimism (eights).



kaleidoscope said:


> A few questions to you id types:
> 
> *1.* Which assertive type would you say is most realistic in their goals?


Eights typically make the most effort to tie themselves to reality when taking action. However, threes are the most focused on achievement and are extremely pragmatic in their thoughts, actions, and image, making their goals more reachable for this reason. So, it depends on how you would define "realistic" here; is it an orientation to facing the situation as it is, or is it a pragmatic focus on the desired end?




> *2.* Can you recognize when your optimism becomes unrealistic, or is it something you realize in retrospect?


If I've been winning at something too much, I run the risk of becoming overconfident and expecting victory while simultaneously underestimating the opponent. I'm usually quite realistic while I'm doing something and if there are visible obstacles, though I do tend to underestimate people if I have gotten an impression of incompetence (which is rarely far off the mark - it's more an assumption that they're slightly less mediocre than I thought. I'm normally pretty good at spotting hidden talent, so I'm rarely blindsided).



> *3. *Would you say there is a dark side to that optimism? What has been your personal experience?


Not taking people seriously at first. When meeting someone new, I get a sense of the way they operate that gives me a working idea of their strengths and weaknesses. This is fluid and constantly adapting to new knowledge, so if someone whose "blueprint" doesn't tell me they are a potential threat tries to challenge me (it can be in something relatively minor, like a competition, or more serious), I usually dismiss the challenge as a waste of time, or in the case of a more "fun" challenge, take it on with some amusement. Usually, this is in some kind of competition rather than anything serious, and I think I handle serious situations with a better idea of the situation's reality. To my credit, I do head to full gear once I can tell my assessment was off, and I start to play as seriously as I can. Also, if I do detect that someone is a problem, I do take appropriate measures.


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## Grau the Great (Mar 2, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> A few questions to you id types:
> 
> *1.* Which assertive type would you say is most realistic in their goals?
> 
> ...


*1.* No idea, lol. I can't speak for Threes or Sevens, so they'll have to make their own comments. However, I'm usually pretty realistic in forming goals. I don't get bogged down in pessimism and finding everything that could possibly go wrong. If some sort of difficulty arises, I'll deal with it as it's happening. There's no reason to worry about 'what-ifs', but I don't exactly expect things to fall into my lap based purely on a positive attitude. That might be the 'realistic optimism' a few people have mentioned in regards to Eights earlier on; there's no reason not to be confident about something based only on what *might* go wrong.

*2.* Retrospect, generally. That's the downside to that kind of confidence. There have been a few times I've gone into something thinking I could handle it fine, before quickly realizing I was up against a lot more than I had anticipated.

*3.* Yes, there's definitely a dark side to it. Continuing on with the example I made in the previous answer, I would remain calm and quickly come up with alternate ways of figuring it out on my own whenever I realized I'd miscalculated or underestimated something or someone. In some cases, it ended up working out entirely, and I pulled it off without anyone knowing there was a problem in the first place. But in a few cases, it ended up making the problem worse. I still couldn't handle the problem entirely on my own, and my attempts at finding different ways of solving it only caused a delay, and the problem itself getting worse. Everything ended up being resolved, but it was a case of things being more difficult than they had to be.


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## mpobrien (Apr 24, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> A few questions to you id types:
> 
> *1.* Which assertive type would you say is most realistic in their goals?


1. I think that 8s are probably most realistic in their goals. From the 8s I know in real life, to the 8s I've read about here, they all seem to have their feet on the ground. Although as a 3 I feel that I am pragmatic and incredibly focused on achievement, as @Dark Romantic stated, I have always felt that 8s are more realistic than 3s. My goals are attainable because of my pragmatic thoughts and image, but I do sometimes set a goal originally thinking that I will be able to meet it, but in the end not be able to. I think that 8s can be more realistic about their abilities and therefore set more realistic goals, whereas I have a tendency to see myself as more competent than I really am (although it pains me to admit it.) 7s I can't speak for really, although I do see them as the least realistic.

*



2.

Click to expand...

*


> Can you recognize when your optimism becomes unrealistic, or is it something you realize in retrospect?


2. I think I just covered this somewhat in my last answer, but I would have to say it's not necessarily retrospect, but as soon as I realize I can't achieve what I set myself out to I try in my head to go through every similar situation I've ever been in to save my current one. If I can't save it, I'll drop it, mark it as a partial success, learn what I can from it, and set myself out for a more attainable, probably easier goal. So I guess I would have to say I recognize when my optimism becomes unrealistic too soon too late. Not sure how to word it.

*



3.

Click to expand...

*


> Would you say there is a dark side to that optimism? What has been your personal experience?


3. Definitely. I think I've covered it in my last few answers, but my personal experience with over-optimism has always involved setting myself up to fail when I thought I could handle what I set myself out to do. There have been exams I didn't study for because another project sprung up last minute and I had thought I already had all the necessary information down, only to fail the test afterwards. I volunteered to tutor Italian Diction while at school, feeling I could handle 2 or 3 students in my spare time, only to realize the school opera was La Boheme that year and the entire cast was coming to me for help. I ran for my res hall President as a first semester freshman feeling that I had made enough connections and friends to steal the win, only to lose miserably.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> A few questions to you id types
> *1.* Which assertive type would you say is most realistic in their goals?


most: 3w2
least: 7w6



> *2.* Can you recognize when your optimism becomes unrealistic, or is it something you realize in retrospect?


when I figure that out, I'll let you know :laughing:
in all honesty though, it's something I'm learning with maturity, but I still struggle with it. that's why I'm an accounting major because I'm hoping it will give me more of a grip on reality



> *3. *Would you say there is a dark side to that optimism? What has been your personal experience?


- having a huge ego 
- being delusional 
- thinking I don't have to work as hard as I actually do


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I think when my connection to 7 is strong and aside being stressed out I have yet to figure out exactly when this happens, maybe just being healthy in general as I find I become increasingly 4 and 5 in a negative sense when unhealthy, I can be almost naively positive. 

I wouldn't consider myself a positive person in general, though. Even when I do feel happy it tends to be rather subdued.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Dark Romantic said:


> Also, you're right in that the internal motivations for each type will differ - threes are positive because they know that thinking positively brings success, while sevens are compulsive optimists - optimism is a defense mechanism that protects from emotional pain.


I don't see why these are type specific. Why would it be a defense mechanism for a 7 and a strategic choice towards succes for a 3? 

It really depends on your objective. If you approach people in a positive way, people tend to respond positively. It's just as strategic as a mindset as the achiever would have. Conversely I could imagine this to be a bit too contrived with a Type 3, as a defense mechanism and not being able to cope with the idea of being unsuccesful.


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## mpobrien (Apr 24, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I don't see why these are type specific. Why would it be a defense mechanism for a 7 and a strategic choice towards succes for a 3?
> 
> It really depends on your objective. If you approach people in a positive way, people tend to respond positively. It's just as strategic as a mindset as the achiever would have. Conversely I could imagine this to be a bit too contrived with a Type 3, as a defense mechanism and not being able to cope with the idea of being unsuccesful.


It's type specific because each type uses optimism differently. 

You said yourself, that it depends on objective. A 3's objective is to be successful, therefore if optimism leads to success I will be optimistic. I would agree that optimism can be contrived for a 3. Like I said before, I see optimism as a tool to meet an end. If positivity yields positive results, then I will be optimistic and positive. And the decision to be optimistic turns into real optimism about my abilities and talents. It's not a defense mechanism though. I am not optimistic about my failure; if anything they would bring me down. After a failure I'm usually _less _optimistic until I can get back into my "groove." I have to see what I can learn from the failure, and then use it to drive myself forward into the future. I don't deny them, or sugar coat them. I observe my mistakes and learn. They become "partial successes" because I may not have fulfilled my goal, but I did learn something valuable for the future. I don't use optimism to cope, I use it, as I said, as a tool. Other 3s may feel differently, but I've yet to encounter one who does.

For a 7, however, the goal is to be happy. Just that. When someone's motivation is happiness, there is little room for pessimism. A common theme among 7s is looking back on past negative experiences as a positive one. They use optimism to cover up anything that will deter them from happiness. I'm not a 7 so I can't expand on this too much, but I feel that they use optimism as a defense mechanism. Smiling and laughing through a sad story: "I smile whenever I talk about something sad." "It's no big deal!" "Let's talk about something happier. / Let's do something more fun." 

I hope that I've made the difference between optimism as a tool (3s) and as a defense mechanism (7s) a little more apparent.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

mpobrien said:


> It's type specific because each type uses optimism differently.
> 
> You said yourself, that it depends on objective. A 3's objective is to be successful, therefore if optimism leads to success I will be optimistic. I would agree that optimism can be contrived for a 3. Like I said before, I see optimism as a tool to meet an end. If positivity yields positive results, then I will be optimistic and positive. And the decision to be optimistic turns into real optimism about my abilities and talents. It's not a defense mechanism though. I am not optimistic about my failure; if anything they would bring me down. After a failure I'm usually _less _optimistic until I can get back into my "groove." I have to see what I can learn from the failure, and then use it to drive myself forward into the future. I don't deny them, or sugar coat them. I observe my mistakes and learn. They become "partial successes" because I may not have fulfilled my goal, but I did learn something valuable for the future. I don't use optimism to cope, I use it, as I said, as a tool. Other 3s may feel differently, but I've yet to encounter one who does.
> 
> ...



So how can a 7 be resilient, meaning working oneself up out of a bad situation? I mean the pain is there. You need something that energizes you, and it ain't running away from fear. Maybe your motivation is to be succesful. But why? Why do you want to be succesful? How would you feel being unsuccesful?


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## mpobrien (Apr 24, 2012)

mimesis said:


> So how can a 7 be resilient, meaning working oneself up out of a bad situation? I mean the pain is there. You need something that energizes you, and it ain't running away from fear. Maybe your motivation is to be succesful. But why? Why do you want to be succesful? How would you feel being unsuccesful?


I mean you would have to ask a 7 about that. I kind of expended my knowledge on 7s up there .

As for your questions, I'm motivated to be successful, not necessarily motivated by success. All I can say is that if I'm not succeeding then I honestly don't know what my existence means. No one remembers the kid who comes in second place, except for the kid who's wishing they had come in first. To me, unsuccessful is synonymous with worthless. No other way I can explain it.


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## Mai Valentine (Jan 29, 2013)

Dark Romantic said:


> It's pretty common knowledge among enneagram enthusiasts that sevens are known as happy, positive, optimistic individuals; however, based on my experience, I think this is something that applies quite well to all assertive types, though for different reasons.
> 
> Threes, for example, often place a big emphasis on thinking positively and visualizing the end goal - success. Sevens are optimistic as a matter of habit, and eights often place great faith in their ability to accomplish things. However, the motivations here differ. When asking a three about why they think positively, you're likely to get a response along the lines of "Positive thoughts bring positive results", an attitude I call "pragmatic optimism". This is likely a result of threes being able to mold their thoughts and image to maximum efficiency to get results. With sevens, since the optimism is a general personality fixation, you might get responses that highlight the positive aspects of the situation while downplaying or ignoring the negatives. With eights, I think the optimism manifests itself in a general sense that they possess the ability to overcome obstacles. This, I think, is part of the eight's attentional pattern, which seeks to minimize obstacles and dangers to preserve the self concept of being strong.
> 
> What do you guys think? Do you agree/disagree? If you're an assertive type (or any type, really), what is your general experience with optimism?


According to Riso 2, 7, and 9 are the positive types. However, in terms of positivity, I would say that anyone with 4 and/or 6 in their stack would be less positive as well.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

mpobrien said:


> I mean you would have to ask a 7 about that. I kind of expended my knowledge on 7s up there .
> 
> As for your questions, I'm motivated to be successful, not necessarily motivated by success. All I can say is that if I'm not succeeding then I honestly don't know what my existence means. No one remembers the kid who comes in second place, except for the kid who's wishing they had come in first. To me, unsuccessful is synonymous with worthless. No other way I can explain it.


I think you explain it well. That is, actually you explain what it not is, and what you want to avoid. Or fear, dare I say.  

But I'm not beating you up on this, just trying to say how difficult it sometimes is to differentiate fear from desire. And I'm not saying you are totally wrong about 7, but that's I guess because you are not a 7? 

I remember a quote once from Boris Becker, about the time when he was number one Tennis player. He felt such a pressure of staying number one, it led to sleepless nights, roaming across the streets at night. And when he was defeated and no longer number one, it was as if a weight fell of his shoulder. 

I was hooked on pills and whisky in glory years, admits Becker - Telegraph

Anyway, please carry on, we're discussing optimism here! ;-)


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

mimesis said:


> I don't see why these are type specific. *Why would it be a defense mechanism for a 7 and a strategic choice towards succes for a 3? *
> 
> It really depends on your objective. If you approach people in a positive way, people tend to respond positively. It's just as strategic as a mindset as the achiever would have. Conversely I could imagine this to be a bit too contrived with a Type 3, as a defense mechanism and not being able to cope with the idea of being unsuccesful.


Optimism often serves as a defense mechanism for Type 7. 7s avoid pain/boredom, and easy optimism can (and often does) serve as a defense mechanism for the type. 3s and 7s are both optimistic (look to the brighter side, focus more on what works for them than on what could wrong), so I wouldn't say that 3s just use optimism as a strategy. Sure, they can get into the whole self-help "optimism" mentality and envision their goals coming to fruition etc. as a way of motivating themselves. But, core 3s rarely use optimism as a defense against pain/boredom as a pattern throughout their lives. 3s are often described as highly pragmatic, and they're less likely than 7s to overestimate themselves and land in sticky situations. 7s can be nearly addicted to optimism in ways that gets unrealistic, and they get back down to earth only when reality slaps them hard. This, of course, ties in with the motivations and fears of the type. Optimism and rationalization (7 defense mechanism) can be very closely interconnected. It is less of a struggle for core 3s as they employ different strategies to deal with their core fears. 

p.s. I liked the Boris Becker point. I don't know what type he is, but I can relate to that. There was a time in my life when the goal of staying on top, no matter what, became the millstone around my neck. It was my undoing. I had to take time off and relax, and I came back energized and more motivated.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Boss said:


> Optimism often serves as a defense mechanism for Type 7. 7s avoid pain/boredom, and easy optimism can (and often does) serve as a defense mechanism for the type. 3s and 7s are both optimistic (look to the brighter side, focus more on what works for them than on what could wrong), so I wouldn't say that 3s just use optimism as a strategy. Sure, they can get into the whole self-help "optimism" mentality and envision their goals coming to fruition etc. as a way of motivating themselves. But, core 3s rarely use optimism as a defense against pain/boredom as a pattern throughout their lives. 3s are often described as highly pragmatic, and they're less likely than 7s to overestimate themselves and land in sticky situations. 7s can be nearly addicted to optimism in ways that gets unrealistic, and they get back down to earth only when reality slaps them hard. This, of course, ties in with the motivations and fears of the type. Optimism and rationalization (7 defense mechanism) can be very closely interconnected. It is less of a struggle for core 3s as they employ different strategies to deal with their core fears.
> 
> p.s. I liked the Boris Becker point. I don't know what type he is, but I can relate to that. There was a time in my life when the goal of staying on top, no matter what, became the millstone around my neck. It was my undoing. I had to take time off and relax, and I came back energized and more motivated.


I understand your point of view, but I think you need to dive deeper into the psyche. 

First of all, some people tend to change over time and so do their behavioral patterns, and sometimes we call that shift personal growth. I think you are comparing healthy Threes to unhealthy Sevens, regardless of what you mean with 'sticky' situations. 

Optimism bias is a common coping strategy, in fact so common to humans that 



> The majority of people (a surprising 80%) overestimate the chances of positive things that might happen to them in the future and underestimate the negative ones. This optimistic expectations are primarily focused on themselves rather than on others.The curious neuron: The neural basis of optimism


Nevertheless, basically you are saying: When the achiever is optimistic, he is pragmatic, (self-)efficacious and goal-oriented, but when the 'Enthusiast' is _optimistic_, he is in denial (defense mechanism to cope with his fear of pain and boredom) and out of touch with oneself and with reality. 

As you know, Threes don't specifically look for succes but for self-worth. How is this not 'optimistic' coping with fear of being worthless? (not to mention denial as defense mechanism):

_Achiever Level 6: 
"Want to impress others with their superiority: constantly promoting themselves, making themselves sound better than they really are. Narcissistic, with grandiose, inflated notions about themselves and their talents."_
3 - Enneagram Type Three: The Achiever



> Optimistic explanatory style
> People who generally tend to blame themselves for negative events, believe that such events will continue indefinitely, and let such events affect many aspects of their lives display what is called a pessimistic explanatory style. Conversely, people who generally tend to blame others for negative events, believe that such events will end soon, and do not let such events affect too many aspects of their lives display what is called an optimistic explanatory style.
> Explanatory style - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Btw succes can be boring as well.  But I'll come back to that one.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@mimesis



> Nevertheless, basically you are saying: When the achiever is optimistic, he is pragmatic, (self-)efficacious and goal-oriented, but when the 'Enthusiast' is _optimistic_, he is in denial (defense mechanism to cope with his fear of pain and boredom) and out of touch with oneself and with reality.


I didn't say that 7s are *necessarily* in denial or that they are *necessarily* unrealistic when they're being optimistic. But, that the rationalization they engage in is more of a struggle for them than it is for core 3s. The hard slap from reality part was not meant to be taken literally, as you have LOL. You're entering strawman territory with the "out of touch with oneself and reality" interpretation. I know that the wishful thinking bias is a common one. 

I am comparing average 3s to average 7s, not 'healthy' 3s to 'unhealthy' 7s. The average 7 (qualifiers apply, SP 7s tend to be more realistic and grounded than the other subtypes) is more oriented to minimizing problems and looking to the brighter side in order to get away from negativity/boredom etc. than the average 3. 

And how is the three coping with the fear of worthlessness with the pursuit of success an 'optimistic' strategy? The 7 denying the negative in favour of what is positive/stimulating/exciting and so on can be connected to the rationalization defense. Optimism is a part of the 7's defense against pain in the here and now. 




> 7) Sevens use *rationalization* to avoid *suffering* and to maintain a self image of being *OK*. Rationalization is a way of staying in the head, explaining away or justifying things in order to distance from painful feelings and refuse to take responsibility for their behavior. Everything can be re-framed towards the positive. [wishful thinking bias/ variant of optimism taken too far] Their ability to think of new options and possibilities allows Sevens to leave the present moment with its limitations and live in a seemingly unlimited future.





> 3) Threes use *identification* to avoid *failure* and maintain a self image of being *successful*. Identification is stepping into a role so completely that Threes lose contact with who they are inside. The pressure to keep up a winning image prevents access to personal feelings and needs. Attention goes to the external environment: the tasks to be done and the expectations of other people. Threes find it very difficult to drop the role, or drop the image, since they get so much positive reinforcement in a society that values achievement and success.


I could quote (and expand upon) Naranjo for you to make this clearer, but I am currently preoccupied.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Boss said:


> @_mimesis_
> 
> I didn't say that 7s are *necessarily* in denial or that they are *necessarily* unrealistic when they're being optimistic. But, that the rationalization they engage in is more of a struggle for them than it is for core 3s. The hard slap from reality part was not meant to be taken literally, as you have LOL. You're entering strawman territory with the "out of touch with oneself and reality" interpretation. I know that the wishful thinking bias is a common one.


For one, I believe you used terms like 'rarely', 'throughout their lives', 'only', 'addictive' etc. to strengthen your point, and I think that I was the one who tries to steer clear from false dichotomies and simplifications to stereotypical attributes and neat schemas. Besides, I said 'basically'. But I suggest we skip the semantical debate if you don't mind. I think the posts speak for themselves. 



Boss said:


> And how is the three coping with the fear of worthlessness with the pursuit of success an 'optimistic' strategy? The 7 denying the negative in favour of what is positive/stimulating/exciting and so on can be connected to the rationalization defense. Optimism is a part of the 7's defense against pain in the here and now.


Sure, you can rationalize and reframe a failure/ worst performance/ not getting desired status. 

_"They hate me because I have ambition and wilpower'. 
"My boobs are real!"
"As long as I see progression I'm not worried". _
Famous quotes like _"I couldn't wait for succes so I went ahead without it". _

Hell, even in combination with identification. 






In fact, _cognitive reframing_ is a component of CBT therapy. Threes can have depressions too, just like all types can have negative dispositional attitudes in an unhealthy way. 

Many fears we have are conditioned, just as our coping strategies (e.g. experiential avoidance), that may become self-defeating and fear reinforcing (sensitization) cognitive behavioral loops. Meditation practice can significantly help reducing fear response (desensitization), resulting in a more positive dispositional attitude, escaping those loops, and achieve more emotional stability and vitality.

Becoming (more) healthy and resilient is also a process of self-_acceptance _and _acceptance _of suffering, and above all, _acceptance _of here and now. 



> _
> Bernardo Bertolucci _
> “For me it was a return to life. I spent the last 10 years in a state of lethargy and I woke up the moment I accepted the fact that I am now talented in a different way. It’s not that in that moment it all became easy and clear, but I returned to life.” Confined to a wheelchair for a long time, Bernardo Bertolucci spoke about his health to the international press that had come to applaud him for his _new film_, Io e Te (Me and You).
> 
> For a director that made his last film 9 years ago, The Dreamers in May of 1968, and who thought that he’d never work again, returning to the Cannes that has applauded him many times before is a happy experience, despite arriving seated in a wheelchair because of declining health and chronic back problems."


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@mimesis

You make interesting points, though you're over-extending yourself and going beyond the scope of the optimism-3/7 theme that I responded to earlier. Keep in my mind that my argument wasn't that rationalization is exclusive to 7s. Surely, different types will use defense mechanisms other than their primary defense strategy. Rationalization and identification often work hand in hand, anyway. 

And, I will have to correct you on your insinuation that I presented false dichotomies and 'stereotypes'. Unless you can point out where in my post I did what you claim, that's a moot point. This is the statement you seem to be alluding to:-


> But, core 3s rarely use optimism as a defense against pain/boredom as a pattern throughout their lives.


The statement was a comparative one, and it wasn't an oversimplification. It was a description of the "characteristic" approach the two types take towards optimism, though I have already stated that both types have a tendency to make the most out of situations and not get caught up in the negative. The optimism of the 3 is said to cover up feelings of "hopelessness" such that the 3 feels the need to be in control and maintain a certain watchfulness in order to ensure that things go as they plan/want them to. The 7's optimism (Naranjo describes it as a "cosmic optimism"-- a sense that everything is alright in the world, and there is no need to struggle) is biased in the "you're ok. i am ok. everything is ok" direction, and this results in a certain blindness (again, I use the term figuratively) or turning away from the more painful, limiting aspects of life, which, at times, means a distaste for focused hard work. 7s are known to have problems with self-discipline, and 3s are known to have problems with slowing down and relaxing. The 7's optimism can cause them to deny/positively reframe negative situations/feelings/thoughts in order to keep up the self-image of things being ok; whereas, the 3's optimism underlies an anxiety about continuing to work and remain in control or else they may cease to be successful (therefore worthy of love) or useful. This validation of worth through action (and becoming a "human doing") is not an optimistic strategy the way you put it. Sure, a 3 can reframe their limitations positively and often do. That's part of what maintains their self-image of "greatness". That is a "narcissistic" approach that 3s, 7s and even 8s share in common. 

My response needs more coherence, but this is the best I can produce in a flu/bronchitis-induced stupor. xD. I will get back to this at some point.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Boss said:


> @_mimesis_
> 
> You make interesting points, though you're over-extending yourself and going beyond the scope of the optimism-3/7 theme that I responded to earlier. Keep in my mind that my argument wasn't that rationalization is exclusive to 7s. Surely, different types will use defense mechanisms other than their primary defense strategy. Rationalization and identification often work hand in hand, anyway.
> 
> ...


Well, I know at this moment it seems to be just you and me, but I entered this thread in response to other posts, and to the schemas or mapping that I saw. (realistic/unrealistic/pragmatic etc.)

At some point you responded to something I said, actually on one point arguing against something that I never said (that threes would have anything to do with fear of boredom.). 



mimesis said:


> I don't see why these are type specific. Why would it be a defense mechanism for a 7 and a strategic choice towards succes for a 3?
> 
> It really depends on your objective. If you approach people in a positive way, people tend to respond positively. It's just as strategic as a mindset as the achiever would have. Conversely I could imagine this to be a bit too contrived with a Type 3, as a defense mechanism and not being able to cope with the idea of being unsuccesful.


So let's just say things get a little mixed up here. 

I noticed people like to make little schemas like positive-negative compulsive-defensive or realistic-unrealistic or whatever and attribute these to each type. And you did the same, when you asserted things that strike me as something pretty hard to measure. Like '3s are less likely to overestimate themselves than 7s'. How do you know? You ask an unhealthy narcissist image-type 3 how often he overestimates himself? What's the use of comparing when people have different objectives? 

A reason why I don't agree with this kind of schemas and stereotyping, is that it levels out the different health levels of personal growth, because a lot of named attributions and stereotypes are in my view much related to a certain level of healthiness. I rather focus more on the individual and the experiential process of personal development.

I look at it this way. Each type has levels of healthiness. Everyone uses defense mechanisms and coping styles in dealing with the world. (Sure some may occur more likely with certain types) Coping styles can be adaptive or maladaptive. Maladaptive coping strategies are relatively unhealthy, adaptive coping strategies are relatively healthy. Adaptive coping styles can become maladaptive as a person grows and meets new challenges. People may get 'stuck' in these coping strategies (or cognitive behavioral loops as mentioned earlier). 

Optimism (bias) and framing can be maladaptive and counterproductive (e.g. counter-envy) but they can be healthy as well. 

Of course this may lead to different kind of behavior for each type, because like you said, each type has its own fears and desires. Although it's not always easy to distinct fear from desire, and on a superficial level behavior of different types may look the same. (as you mentioned with narcissism) On the other hand, the difference between unhealthy and healthy behavior within the same type can be pretty big, especially when you have to make those steps yourself, and you rarely read what needs to be done for that. 

That's my 2cts.


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