# Which Enneagram type is the most loyal?



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

which do you think?


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Uhhhhh.... Ennea 6 = the loyalist? Joking, I never quite understood that appellation. I guess it depends what you mean by loyal? Loyal to what?


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

2s and 1s, a healthy 6. 4s are extremely loyal in my experience, but my experience is limited since the only 4 I know is my girlfriend.

Edit: poster above made me think. Maybe each enneagram is loyal to a specific concept within themselves. 6s to a group, 4s to relationship, 1st to an ideology, 2s to their friendships, 8s to themselves, 9s to their loved ones? (Not really sure about that one), 7s to adventures, 3s to their image(s), 5s to their knowledge.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

in my opinion, the most loyal type is, oddly enough, 8.

many would think 6, but, in my experience, 6's loyalty tends to be more shallow than it is portrayed in descriptions. typically, it stems from a much more fear based motive: fearing abandonment. once the mentor/authority figure/friend/lover etc proves to no longer be a source of security, many 6s are just as quick to turn on them. 

8s on the other hand (in the average and healthy range) exhibit a more selfless loyalty, which often takes on a "mother bear" sort of quality. 8s often sustain significant losses for the sake of looking out for their own without much caring or wanting credit for it (if anything, bringing it up would probably embarrass them a little)


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

I think 1's are loyal to their values at the expense of loyalty to others unless others are part of their value system, 2's would perhaps offer a loyalty hidden behind a controlling grip on others at their worst and 8's are the most loyal to those who have earnt their trust, sometimes the complete reverse, a wish to exact hurt on those who have hurt them. I actually think 6's are some of the least loyal because they tend to flip flop between both disloyalty(when they go to 3) and seeking to build loyalty, not very consistent though, overly questionning and can't be sure of who is worth their loyalty. 3's seem like one of the least loyal types when unhealthy, stabbing people in the back to get where they want to get etc, deceipt. 7's I would imagine crave the loyalty of others attention rather than be loyal themselves. *feel free to correct/point out anything wrong*


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I don't get the 'loyalist' label for 6s either. It doesn't seem to be a core value so much. 

I picked 2 just based on experience.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

i'm loyal to people i care about, and who've come to mean something to me. 

@Swordsman of Mana got it right when he said 8's loyalty is selfless. it doesn't expect reciprocity or any other kind of 'giving back'. for better or worse that's how it is. once i really care about someone i care about them until the end. no matter what they do. even if they never care back. they would really have to pull an enormous betrayal for me to start feeling different about them. however, this has never happened, so i don't really know what it would take for me to reverse my stance on a person who means something to me.


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## deep_intuit (Jun 9, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in my opinion, the most loyal type is, oddly enough, 8.
> 
> many would think 6, but, in my experience, 6's loyalty tends to be more shallow than it is portrayed in descriptions. typically, it stems from a much more fear based motive: fearing abandonment. once the mentor/authority figure/friend/lover etc proves to no longer be a source of security, many 6s are just as quick to turn on them.
> 
> 8s on the other hand (in the average and healthy range) exhibit a more selfless loyalty, which often takes on a "mother bear" sort of quality. 8s often sustain significant losses for the sake of looking out for their own without much caring or wanting credit for it (if anything, bringing it up would probably embarrass them a little)


Yeah there's no way that I'm seeing type 8's as the most loyal. To me, the most loyal types are 1's and 2's. To me, the least loyal types are 6's and 8's. 



Promethea said:


> I don't get the 'loyalist' label for 6s either. It doesn't seem to be a core value so much.
> 
> I picked 2 just based on experience.


I never understood how they could write a general description for type 6's given the fact that they correlate with every enneagram type.


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## DarkWolf (Sep 6, 2013)

1. 

Ethics above all, bros before hos, etc.


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## Father of Dragons (May 7, 2012)

If you are talking towards loved ones, I would say 2s and 9s are the most loyal types in an unconditional way. 8s are capable of being intensely loyal but it is conditional in the sense that they have to respect you. A couple of 8s I've known can seem to lose respect instantly for people if they show a lot of weakness or wiffle-waffling behavior, so in my opinion they are not so loyal in a supportive sense.

I would also say that any of the other types can be very loyal, especially 4s and 6s, but it is not something they are overtly concerned about. 

I would say 2s and 9s are the most loyal because we nines (myself included) almost pride ourselves on our ability to be loving and nonjudgemental of those close to us. And, I have seen something very similar to that in twos.

I really agree with @_mushr00m_ that ones seem not to be driven towards unconditional loyalty to specific people. If anybody does something they consider immoral, their respect for them goes right out the window.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in my opinion, the most loyal type is, oddly enough, 8.
> 
> many would think 6, but, in my experience, 6's loyalty tends to be more shallow than it is portrayed in descriptions. typically, it stems from a much more fear based motive: fearing abandonment. once the mentor/authority figure/friend/lover etc proves to no longer be a source of security, many 6s are just as quick to turn on them.
> 
> 8s on the other hand (in the average and healthy range) exhibit a more selfless loyalty, which often takes on a "mother bear" sort of quality. 8s often sustain significant losses for the sake of looking out for their own without much caring or wanting credit for it (if anything, bringing it up would probably embarrass them a little)


What you write about 6 and 8 sounds pretty convincing. In fact I often feel mistrust towards sixes and while I don't find 8s more attractive, I would be probably more likely to trust an 8's loyalty. But maybe it's just a bias of my personal experience.


I'm not sure as how people here understand loyalty. I don't know if it's even related to enneatype so much, or is it a personal trait or maybe something learnt. 


For example I think I'm pretty loyal. When I consider someone my friend, I'm very loyal and I am often shocked and saddened when I see how people act disloyal towards others (not towards me, because of course that's painful for other reasons). If I see that someone is disloyal I wouldn't consider that person a good friend material and I would keep in mind they are not to be trusted.
I really suspect that loyalty plays a great role in my relationships with people and I don't think everybody feels like that, from what I observed. But I don't know if it depends on enneatype.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

Shadow Logic said:


> 2s and 1s, a healthy 6. 4s are extremely loyal in my experience, but my experience is limited since the only 4 I know is my girlfriend.
> 
> Edit: poster above made me think. Maybe each enneagram is loyal to a specific concept within themselves. 6s to a group, 4s to relationship, 1st to an ideology, 2s to their friendships, 8s to themselves, 9s to their loved ones? (Not really sure about that one), 7s to adventures, 3s to their image(s), 5s to their knowledge.


Maybe all healthy types are loyal. That's why judging by own experience is tricky.

Hm, I don't think so... Loyal to knowledge? Adventures? You can't be loyal to knowledge. I think loyalty applies to other people only. But I guess every type may have different approach to loyalty and maybe different categories of people to be loyal to.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

thwoomp said:


> 8s are capable of being intensely loyal but it is conditional in the sense that they have to respect you. A couple of 8s I've known can seem to lose respect instantly for people if they show a lot of weakness or wiffle-waffling behavior, so in my opinion they are not so loyal in a supportive sense.


this is where the health starts to matter significantly. now, i don't consider myself a very healthy specimen of my type (i can turn very unhealthy under certain circumstances), but i am more healthy in some aspects than others. and this is one of those aspects i've matured a lot in. i used to get turned off by any sign of weakness in another person when i was younger. yeah, i lost respect for a person that way. but this is no longer the case. 

however, even when i was younger, those people i truly cared about, even signs of weakness didn't reverse the loyalty even then. i was turned off, but that sensation abated after a while and i was able to forget about it. so nothing really changed. 

i don't know if the case can be made for the 8 as the most loyal type overall though. in my experience, my loyalty is a highly personal one. it outlasts a lot. but in some other sense i can be not so loyal at all. i feel no loyalty for principles (even my own) or connections that base off of time. meaning, the fact that i've known someone for a long time doesn't spell any loyalty to me at all. i've seen that it does to some people.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in my opinion, the most loyal type is, oddly enough, 8.
> 
> many would think 6, but, in my experience, 6's loyalty tends to be more shallow than it is portrayed in descriptions. typically, it stems from a much more fear based motive: fearing abandonment. once the mentor/authority figure/friend/lover etc proves to no longer be a source of security, many 6s are just as quick to turn on them.
> 
> 8s on the other hand (in the average and healthy range) exhibit a more selfless loyalty, which often takes on a "mother bear" sort of quality. 8s often sustain significant losses for the sake of looking out for their own without much caring or wanting credit for it (if anything, bringing it up would probably embarrass them a little)


You are so very right. :blushed: embarrass and ruin our street cred. How intuitive.


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## cudibloop (Oct 11, 2012)

Six is _clingy _rather than ​loyal (unless they have a 2-fix).


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in my opinion, the most loyal type is, oddly enough, 8.
> 
> many would think 6, but, in my experience, 6's loyalty tends to be more shallow than it is portrayed in descriptions. typically, it stems from a much more fear based motive: fearing abandonment. once the mentor/authority figure/friend/lover etc proves to no longer be a source of security, many 6s are just as quick to turn on them.
> 
> 8s on the other hand (in the average and healthy range) exhibit a more selfless loyalty, which often takes on a "mother bear" sort of quality. 8s often sustain significant losses for the sake of looking out for their own without much caring or wanting credit for it (if anything, bringing it up would probably embarrass them a little)


There is no such thing as the 'most loyal' type. 8s and 1s would be pretty high up, equally, how I see it. @ 6 "loyalty", this is exactly what I said when we were discussing this. I love how the whole loyalty thing is so overblown with 6s, because 6s are loyal to their sources of security (people, ideology etc.) only as long as they remain a source of security. This is not the exalted ideal of loyalty that most people think it is. It's security seeking behaviour stemming from a fear of abandonment or lost support. In the higher health levels, most people would display the more respectable manifestation of loyalty which is being steadfast for people you care for when the going gets tough as well as being able to live in accordance with good values or whatever. Surely, a person can be loyal to fucked up, useless or unjust or whatever "ideals", institutions and people as well. 
*
Here's something I said about 6 loyalty on another thread:*




> The *"Skeptic"* is a far better description than "the Loyalist". The loyalty comes after a shit load of testing and questioning anyway, and even then, a lot of 6s like to keep their options open..just in case lol. Some 6s do seem to cling to/ be loyal to an individual/belief system even when they should actually be letting go. It seems like the flip side of the avoidance of uncertainty is when a 6 will cling to an unhealthy situation/person for fear of of stepping into unfamiliar territory. What seems like undying loyalty, even to an unhealthy person/flawed belief system or whatever, is actually a form of fear, the fear of uncertainty and losing sold grounding. They are skeptical (more like questioning and even mistrustful) of the future (of what action to take in the future), of the next step, so they cling to past and present.
> 
> It swings both ways, and then are the more mature and evolved 6s (some of whom can achieve historical greatness rivaling the famed 8s lol and the more stereotypically reformist 1s), who truly are committed to the causes they believe in, without becoming rigid/close minded or being unreasonably flighty.


 @_Promethea_ had talked about Palmer's "non-commital" 6 on the same thread. 

When we're talking about loyalty for the sake of loyalty, it's 1s who are loyal as a matter of principle. 8s are loyal not 'selflessly' but as an *act of patronage*, unless they're mature and self-aware in which case the loyalty will come more from their more "magnanimous" line to 2 as well as their trust valuing ethos. Many 8s will demand some sort of allegiance or even submission from people who they take under their wing, including at times their own loved ones. Mature 8s, however, are incredibly loyal to people in their inner circle in a more wholehearted sense. Their loyalty isn't about supporting whatever shit someone does or some such nonsense, and it is also not about garnering future support or avoiding abandonment. They're loyal and protective because they _can be_. 

I've noticed that for a lot of 6s loyalty means unbridled support. 8 loyalty doesn't preclude being challenged as they tend to respect people who stand up to them and meet them at their own level of honesty and intensity. 8s have a line to 2, and where their loved ones are concerned, they can have benevolence laced loyalty and protectiveness that is different, in some ways, from 6 loyalty, even where mature 6s are concerned. There's a somewhat proud benevolence to a mature 8's loyalty as well as their protectiveness; a healthy 6 loyal because they consider it a sign of responsibility to those they care for. There's more humility to it than in the case of 8s. 

As I said earlier, unless mature and self-aware, 6s are only loyalty to whatever they consider a source of security/groundedness/support. Generally, 6 loyalty is open to a lot of vacillation and questioning. They can be surprisingly 'disloyal', as well. 
*
Here's another post of mine comparing 1, 8 and 6 loyalty (a few overlaps from above): *



> Loyalty as a more human concern is a valid point. To put it in an Enneagram context, I'll add that 8s care very much about loyalty. To them, it's more a case of leveraging power. It's like "I offer you protection (patronage), and you remain loyal to me, in turn." This is often said in the context of Social 8s. Moreover, 8s are known to be incredibly protective of people in their inner circle (this can easily and logically be interpreted as a form of loyalty).
> 
> Overall, loyalty as a form of steadfastness seems to tie in with having a strong superego, as well. 2s can be very loyal and value loyalty very much. Someone mentioned Type 1. And, theoretically, Ones can be extremely and even fanatically committed to a cause to the point where losing their life for a cause they believe in would be perfectly in line with their core motivations. A 1 could very well show the kind of loyalty displayed by the hypothetical 6 in the missile launch example.
> 
> On a different note, my SO is a Type 1. And, he's had this attitude that protecting his partner's interests is a matter of principle to him, be it protection from a bullet or debt. These are his words, and he has, quite literally, taken a bullet for a loved one in the past. And, this is has to do with his moral standards. This brand of loyalty is a matter of ethics to him. There are different underlying motivations, but types other than 6 can show 'undying' loyalty in trying times or when a tough call needs to be made. And, considering how complex the 6 gestalt is, the Loyalist doesn't seem an appropriate descriptor because it doesn't capture the issue of certainty/uncertainty/doubt or fear/anxiety which is at the root of the fixation, more than good ol' loyalty (pretty broad term anyway). The "Questioner"/"Skeptic" or even Seeker capture the fixation better than "The Loyalist".





mushr00m said:


> I think 1's are loyal to their values at the expense of loyalty to others unless others are part of their value system, 2's would perhaps offer a loyalty hidden behind a controlling grip on others at their worst and 8's are the most loyal to those who have earnt their trust, sometimes the complete reverse, a wish to exact hurt on those who have hurt them. I actually think 6's are some of the least loyal because they tend to flip flop between both disloyalty(when they go to 3) and seeking to build loyalty, not very consistent though, overly questionning and can't be sure of who is worth their loyalty. 3's seem like one of the least loyal types when unhealthy, stabbing people in the back to get where they want to get etc, deceipt. 7's I would imagine crave the loyalty of others attention rather than be loyal themselves. *feel free to correct/point out anything wrong*



Ones adhere to their value systems, and they can, as a principle, be very loyal to those they care for. However, if they had to choose between loyalty to an individual or to their principles, they'd choose their principles more often than not. Or else, it would be an uncomfortable compromise. And yes, you expressed that very well about 8s. They are very loyal and protective when it comes to those who earn their trust and respect, especially their loved ones. 

6 disloyalty has nothing to do with going to 3. Three doesn't have any real propensity for disloyalty per se, as they can also be very responsible to their families and loved ones etc., especially those with strong SP. On that note, even 7s can be highly protective in their own way. But, yes, 3s are opportunistic in the service of their progress (keeping their sense of worth affirmed) just like 6s are opportunistic in the service of attaining a semblance of certainty/security. If you're talking more about 6s becoming somewhat pretentious lol, arrogant and competitive when going to unhealthy 3, there I see your point. 

lolz I wrote in the other thread that I really cared about loyalty--as in having a loyal fan following. :laughing: 
Good point about 2s, as well. As for 7s, no they have a line to 1 and can, as anyone else, be loyal (again steadfast as I said above) with people they're close to. Many 7s have protective instincts for those suffering deprivation and so on. So, they do have a somewhat principled side to them. It's not principled in the archetypal Type 1 sense, but they can have their own brand of integrity, which can translate into the action of really being there for their loved ones when the situation calls for it.

I touched on it above, briefly. But, loyalty as I laid out above is a general human concern as well. Loyalty as it implies faithfulness to a cause, ideal, person(s), 'duty' does seem more superego-ish, stereotypically. However, anyone can be faithful to a cause and/or to those they love. I've covered the loyalty-protection dynamic in detail above. Loyalty to states and institutions is more in line with 6, 1 or social 8, though not to the exclusion of other types. SO doms can have these leanings, regardless of type. 

Accountability, steadfastness, resilience are universally valued traits. Anyone of any type who is emotionally and psychologically healthy will display positively motivated manifestations of "loyalty". I would use other terms personally, but I guess it's not too bad as a catch-all term for some other traits.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Boss said:


> 8s are loyal not 'selflessly' but as an *act of patronage*, /.../ Many 8s will demand some sort of allegiance or even submission from people who they take under their wing, including at times their own loved ones.


don't agree with this. allegiance and submission i can expect/demand from certain people. it does not tie in with loyalty, and usually, i feel no loyalty for people through such a dynamic, unless there's a more personal bond between myself and them. loyalty is personal for me, like i already said. i have to care about a person. 

and i'm not even a selfless person to begin with. but the loyalty i've experienced, i've experienced it selflessly, paradoxical as it might be, not expecting it in return, not having gotten it in return, but it's there not going away, not changing. because that person i feel loyalty to means something to me, that hasn't changed and so doesn't change the loyalty to them. there's no patronage or expectations of submission factoring into this at all.



> They're loyal and protective because they _can be_.


i am not loyal because i can be. to me it sounds like being loyal just because there's an opportunity for it, which isn't true in my case. i could be loyal to a bunch of people but that has never made me be loyal to anyone. 

loyalty is a physical thing. i am loyal just because i am, physically in my body. i can't tear it out no more than i can erase being in love with someone. it arises as a consequence of connecting with someone, starting to care about them and when they start to mean something to me. a person in my inner circle, so to say, yeah. 

and, 'loyal' and 'protective' are two completely different things to me. i think this is where some of the confusion arises. people i'm loyal to i'm also naturally protective of. but the fact that i am protective of someone, doesn't mean i'm also loyal to them.

that's my experience.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

meridannight said:


> don't agree with this. allegiance and submission i can expect/demand from certain people. it does not tie in with loyalty, and usually, i feel no loyalty for people through such a dynamic, unless there's a more personal bond between myself and them. loyalty is personal for me, like i already said. i have to care about a person.


You seem to have taken that part out of context. Here's what I said:-



> 8s are loyal not 'selflessly' but as an *act of patronage*, unless they're mature and self-aware in which case the loyalty will come more from their more "magnanimous" line to 2 as well as their trust valuing ethos. Many 8s will demand some sort of allegiance or even submission from people who they take under their wing, including at times their own loved ones.  Mature 8s, however, are incredibly loyal to people in their inner circle in a more wholehearted sense.


It's entirely possible for any person of any type to demand allegiance/loyalty and offer no protection in return. If not protection, it's something else. But, allegiance doesn't come free. Social 8s very often will offer protection to those they see as allies, in return for their allegiance and loyalty. The patronage-loyalty theme is either a strategic choice or a manifestation of conditional loyalty in less healthy 8s. 




> and i'm not even a selfless person to begin with. but the loyalty i've experienced, i've experienced it selflessly, paradoxical as it might be, not expecting it in return, not having gotten it in return, but it's there not going away, not changing. because that person i feel loyalty to means something to me, that hasn't changed and so doesn't change the loyalty to them. there's no patronage or expectations of submission factoring into this at all.


Yes, that's what I said above. Read the post again where I talk about 8s have the capacity to be loyal in a wholehearted and truly magnanimous sense to those they care for.




> i am not loyal because i can be. to me it sounds like being loyal just because there's an opportunity for it, which isn't true in my case. i could be loyal to a bunch of people but that has never made me be loyal to anyone.


The can be part is a reference to not being loyal because loyalty is a cherished principle, but because that is what you choose for reasons other than superegoic ones. 


> and, 'loyal' and 'protective' are two completely different things to me. i think this is where some of the confusion arises. people i'm loyal to i'm also naturally protective of. but the fact that i am protective of someone, doesn't mean i'm also loyal to them.


Yes, loyalty and protection are not synonymous. But, they are often interlinked. 



> that's my experience.


Of course.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Boss said:


> You seem to have taken that part out of context. Here's what I said:-
> 
> 
> 
> > 8s are loyal not 'selflessly' but as an act of patronage, unless they're mature and self-aware in which case the loyalty will come more from their more "magnanimous" line to 2 as well as their trust valuing ethos. Many 8s will demand some sort of allegiance or even submission from people who they take under their wing, including at times their own loved ones. Mature 8s, however, are incredibly loyal to people in their inner circle in a more wholehearted sense.


nah, i saw that. but i have a strong disagreement with patronage and loyalty being connected with each other, thus i wanted to emphasize it. maybe i overemphasized it. 



> Social 8s very often will offer protection to those they see as allies, in return for their allegiance and loyalty.


this is how i interpret this:
SO 8s offer protection to their allies to _receive_ allegiance and loyalty _from_ them (the allies, that is).

but we're talking about the loyalty the 8 _gives_ not receives. under which terms do you think SO 8s would give their loyalty?



> The patronage-loyalty theme is either a strategic choice or a manifestation of conditional loyalty in less healthy 8s.


maybe you're right. but i have no experience with it myself. i can't imagine giving my loyalty to someone even on strategic grounds. it's not necessary. strategically it's only necessary to make it look like you're committed (if that is what the stakes hang on), until you get what you want. it doesn't mean you're actually loyal. and if i don't feel it i don't feel it, strategics or no strategics.




> The can be part is a reference to not being loyal because loyalty is a cherished principle, but because that is what you choose for reasons other than superegoic ones.


okay....i don't understand loyalty either on principle or superegoic grounds.... i understand what you mean by it. but i don't understand how that can be called a loyalty. it's masked under layers of other determinant factors, which appear more dominant than the byproduct ''loyalty'' itself.

and how can one ''choose'' loyalty? i feel loyalty, or i don't feel it. and i can't change it and i can't choose it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

meridannight said:


> this is how i interpret this:
> SO 8s offer protection to their allies to _receive_ allegiance and loyalty _from_ them (the allies, that is).
> 
> but we're talking about the loyalty the 8 _gives_ not receives. under which terms do you think SO 8s would give their loyalty?


Glad you picked up on that! I realized much later that I hadn't really covered that adequately. In the social relations/political sense, the SO 8s give loyalty as opposed to just patronage in exchange for loyalty, is when the allies are considered equals. There are times when you have to gain influence by winning the allegiance of those that are not as powerful as yourself. Here's where, from what I have gathered and read, there's an element of bestowing their largesse, so to speak. It may also have an element of loyalty, if the 8 is quite evolved and has an egalitarian bent. So, they'd see themselves as genuinely loyal to the interests of their following, however large or small. But, more generally, they'd give loyalty, as opposed to just patronage, to allies that are seen as equals as I said. 



> maybe you're right. but i have no experience with it myself. i can't imagine giving my loyalty to someone even on strategic grounds. it's not necessary. strategically it's only necessary to make it look like you're committed (if that is what the stakes hang on), until you get what you want. it doesn't mean you're actually loyal. and if i don't feel it i don't feel it, strategics or no strategics.



Read above. You may act strategically and authentically at the same time. They can be mutually exclusive, but don't have to be. 



> okay....i don't understand loyalty either on principle or superegoic grounds.... i understand what you mean by it. but i don't understand how that can be called a loyalty. it's masked under layers of other determinant factors, which appear more dominant than the byproduct ''loyalty'' itself.


Loyalty out of principle doesn't strike me as not fitting the common positive conception of loyalty. See, the standard definition of loyalty just means faithfulness to a cause, ideal, person, institution, duty etc. Whether your faithfulness is derived from an authentic source or from a place of fear and security, it's still technically loyalty unless there's distinct (and better) term, for when people are loyal out of insecurity, that I am not aware of. It's just not the respectable and unconditional ideal of loyalty that most people have in mind when they think of the term, including myself. It's why I said that 6s are not always authentically loyal, but more loyal because it serves their security needs. It's not the positive manifestation of loyalty that people assume by default, more a loyalty out of security compulsions. It would be better to call it 'loyalty' as opposed to loyalty as it's commonly understood lol. It's a matter of semantics or there's a better term I can use for this. 



> and how can one ''choose'' loyalty? i feel loyalty, or i don't feel it. and i can't change it and i can't choose it.


When you feel it, is it not because you choose to feel it?


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Boss said:


> Loyalty out of principle doesn't strike me as not fitting the common positive conception of loyalty. See, the standard definition of loyalty just means faithfulness to a cause, ideal, person, institution, duty etc. Whether your faithfulness is derived from an authentic source or from a place of fear and security, it's still technically loyalty unless there's distinct (and better) term, for when people are loyal out of insecurity, that I am not aware of. It's just not the respectable and unconditional ideal of loyalty that most people have in mind when they think of the term, including myself. It's why I said that 6s are not always authentically loyal, but more loyal because it serves their security needs. It's not the positive manifestation of loyalty that people assume by default, more a loyalty out of security compulsions. It would be better to call it 'loyalty' as opposed to loyalty as it's commonly understood lol. It's a matter of semantics or there's a better term I can use for this.


yeah, i understand it now. it's how you define it. personally, i don't see loyalty derived from fear, etc as actual loyalty. it's a byproduct, in my opinion, like i said, not the real thing. but that's my subjective stance. i get it.



> When you feel it, is it not because you choose to feel it?


no, i don't choose it. it's just there. it arises on its own as a result of me forming a bond with someone who gets to me in a deep and personal way. i don't choose to be loyal to them. and i can't go against it, because the person matters to me. it's because he matters to me that i am loyal to him. and i don't get to choose whether he matters to me or not. and once i care about someone, i care about them no matter what, thus also that loyalty persists.

loyalty comes in package with caring for that other person. i never choose it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_meridannight_

In my own opinion, as I said earlier, it's not authentic either. 

and I see @ elaboration on the choice/feelings stuff.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

@Boss @Animal 
As an 8. I would kill for people in my inner circle. I probably would to protect some weak bitch I could not even stand because it would be the right thing to do.. normally can't say always. Sometimes blood lust wins and I let someone get the shit beaten out of them if they deserve it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

LeoCat said:


> @_Boss_ @_Animal_
> As an 8. I would kill for people in my inner circle. I probably would to protect some weak bitch I could not even stand because it would be the right thing to do.. normally can't say always. Sometimes blood lust wins and I let someone get the shit beaten out of them if they deserve it.


I would kill for people I care for, and I would die and kill for my partner. I would protect a loved one if they were attacked unfairly, and in general, I'd only protect someone who truly couldn't help themselves, such as a child, disabled person etc. But, if someone were fuckin asking for it, fuck I'd sit back and watch their ass take a good beating. :laughing:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I chose 4 because I am too loyal for my own good and I need to bash my head against the wall repeatedly for forgiving people "because I love them" sometimes. For most of my life I was painfully, profoundly loyal to the point of my own demise.

I have retained friendships all my life, even if we don't talk for years. Some people have taken advantage and learned to call me when they're in need. Once you're in, you're in for life, unless you seriously, tremendously, beyond belief, betray me. I do have a line, and when you cross it, you're done. But it takes a lot - because once you are my friend and I love you, I am there for you no matter what, I'll help you in a crisis even without hearing from you for years; the bond is for life.

I have also noticed this pattern in other 4s. I've dated a few 4s and we remain friends or at least protect each other from others. I've watched a fellow 4 get bashed repeatedly by a psychotic friend and he kept taking it and taking it. It was painful to watch. I've seen this in 4s too many times and now that I know I'm a 4 I realize why it bothers me so much - because I do it as well. It takes *so MUCH* for me to turn on someone once they have gotten into my heart.

On top of that, assholes take advantage of unhealthy 4s because in a sick way, unhealthy 4s enjoy pain and pride ourselves on martyrdom and suffering for someone else, even if we don't realize that's why we keep going back for more. This can translate to healthy loyalty and 'acceptance of the flaws of others' as well. But because of bad experiences when I'm healthy or unhealthy, I'm very careful about who I let in. I'm nice to anyone who is nice to me, and I am respectful to everyone. Respect includes "Don't ever talk to me again" or revenge if necessary, but then I'll leave you alone once you know your place and stay out of my way. Even that is respect. However, respect and kindness doesn't mean you're in my heart. If you're in my heart, you're never getting out... and that is why I must be very selective about who crosses that line.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

I can be loyal to the undeserving.. way too merciful like when my brother in law wanted out of the cult, but was revealed after months of me toying with him trying to get the truth out- he pretended his baby died to get in my good graces. I had been fighting those months with my brother and everyone trying to argue he deserved a second chance and that brainwashing is serious..it is.

I almost drove up there alone to get him..glad they stopped me.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

meridannight said:


> don't agree with this. allegiance and submission i can expect/demand from certain people. it does not tie in with loyalty, and usually, i feel no loyalty for people through such a dynamic, unless there's a more personal bond between myself and them. loyalty is personal for me, like i already said. i have to care about a person.
> 
> and i'm not even a selfless person to begin with. but the loyalty i've experienced, i've experienced it selflessly, paradoxical as it might be, not expecting it in return, not having gotten it in return, but it's there not going away, not changing. because that person i feel loyalty to means something to me, that hasn't changed and so doesn't change the loyalty to them. there's no patronage or expectations of submission factoring into this at all.
> 
> ...


And it looks like your sense of loyalty is similar to mine. I guess it may be more of a personal thing, maybe a matter of growing up. I actually was taught about loyalty as a child, as well as other things - empathy, not having fun at someone's expense, standing up for oneself and others... Those things are very important to me, but how can tell if they were imprinted on me or had I got some natural tendency? Things I wasn't taught was for example setting and pursuing goals, systematic work etc. and I still have problems with it. But again maybe I was always bad at it and that's why I didn't picked up those abilities.


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## Curiously (Nov 7, 2011)

I refuse to vote on this one. Why? Because I know people of all kinds of core E-types who have proven their loyalty, time-after-time. I'm talking about 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s, ALL of 'em. Each type, and thus individual, will show his/her loyalty in different ways.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

In my opinion, 1' are probably the most likely to adopt a "down with the ship" attitude when it comes to things or people they're intensely devoted to. They can be the ultimate martyrs.

8's can be very loyal as well but I think they can be be quick to "cut off ties" if people become too much of a liabilty and a potential threat or endangerment to them (Tony Soprano and Christopher Moltisanti come to mind). Exposing an 8 to harm or danger that was out of their control is a good way to get disowned by them.



thwoomp said:


> I would say 2s and 9s are the most loyal because we nines (myself included) almost pride ourselves on our ability to be loving and nonjudgemental of those close to us. And, I have seen something very similar to that in twos.


Interesting. Maybe this is T vs F or just me personally, but I can't say I relate. Loving and nonjudgmental are two words my loved ones would never use to describe me. Also, I'd have to disagree with 9's being the "most loyal". In my opinion, 9's are too passive and withdrawn to be "the most" loyal. Not to mention the 9's ability to see issues from multiple angles may put them at odd's end when it comes to making a stand.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

VamPie said:


> And it looks like your sense of loyalty is similar to mine. I guess it may be more of a personal thing, maybe a matter of growing up. I actually was taught about loyalty as a child, as well as other things - empathy, not having fun at someone's expense, standing up for oneself and others... Those things are very important to me, but how can tell if they were imprinted on me or had I got some natural tendency? Things I wasn't taught was for example setting and pursuing goals, systematic work etc. and I still have problems with it. But again maybe I was always bad at it and that's why I didn't picked up those abilities.


i wasn't taught loyalty as a kid, neither empathy. i remember i was taught not to steal, not to hurt animals, not to lie, and not to play with matches.  but that was pretty much it. my family laid down the basic fundamentals, but i wasn't taught any morals or anything like that at all. some human issues were discussed with me involved, but it was always an exchange of individual opinions not absolutes, and i saw very early on how different individuals inside and outside my family held differing viewpoints on the same matter. i was told it was ''grown up stuff'' and i'll know it in my own time, that i'll figure it out myself one day. and i did.

overall i was brought up very liberally. no credo was forced on me, opinions weren't forced on me. i was left to my own devices to discover the world/life and figure myself out. and i am entirely grateful to my mom for this.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Ask yourself - loyalty to what or whom? Loyalty and commitment are two different things in my book, and that difference is important in the context of the enneagram as well. You can be committed to something by making ongoing efforts on behalf of it, but not necessarily "loyal" in the sense of sacrificing a piece of yourself on its behalf. You can also be loyal to something or someone when rubber hits the road, but make little day to day effort on it otherwise, as I have witnessed with some 8's.

I have found that the 1's, 2's, some 3's, and 6's (at least contingently) I know are the most *committed*. Once they affix to something or someone, they make continued, measured efforts to keep it that way - not _necessarily_ because they healthfully care about it, but out of the mechanisms their psyches have created to cope with their core fears. 

I have found that 1's, 2's, some CP 6's, and 8's are the most *loyal. *Regardless of their involvement or lack thereof in someone or something, they are more willing to take self-endangering action in a difficult situation. They may or may not have been committed all along, but show their heart through action when it matters. 


In spite of this, though, I think this is something to look into _after _you know someone's type, not before. Any type can be loyal, or committed for various stretches of time. There are 5's who are very devoted to the people they do come to form a bond with, 4's who come to grow along with someone for good, 7's who put themselves on the line for their families, and 9's who literally give themselves away for the sake of peace without anyone even noticing.


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## Father of Dragons (May 7, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> In my opinion, 1' are probably the most likely to adopt a "down with the ship" attitude when it comes to things or people they're intensely devoted to. They can be the ultimate martyrs.
> 
> 8's can be very loyal as well but I think they can be be quick to "cut off ties" if people become too much of a liabilty and a potential threat or endangerment to them (Tony Soprano and Christopher Moltisanti come to mind). Exposing an 8 to harm or danger that was out of their control is a good way to get disowned by them.
> 
> ...


You are probably right; I'm an INFP so I guess I was unconsciously projecting that aspect of myself. I do know a number of nines who are similar to me in this way, but they are probably IxFP's also... thinking nines must be very different in this sense. 

That being said, I wouldn't necessarily say that a nine's ability to see multiple perspectives makes them any less loyal. I feel like it changes the dynamic: they are less likely to support the specific positions taken by those they care about, but are very likely to support the people themselves. 

I guess if the concept of loyalty we are talking about is more of a combative "I've got your back, bro" then I would agree that nines are much less this way then other types. The type of loyalty I was talking about was more of a supportive type - regardless of the path the people I love choose to take, I will respect their choice and will be all about helping them get through any struggles they might have along the way. 

Personally, in the type of conflict situation that has been brought up in this thread, I am generally more likely to take a mediating stance. I'd rather point out that there is no reason to fight than to escalate the situation by having an "ours vs. yours" mentality. In a sense valuing loyalty over peace in such a situation is not something I would do; I feel that such a dramatic, reactive attitude creates unnecessary conflict. Of course if it came down to it I would back up those I care about, but in my opinion there is rarely a time when it should have to come to that.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

thwoomp said:


> You are probably right; I'm an INFP so I guess I was unconsciously projecting that aspect of myself. I do know a number of nines who are similar to me in this way, but they are probably IxFP's also... thinking nines must be very different in this sense.
> 
> That being said, I wouldn't necessarily say that a nine's ability to see multiple perspectives makes them any less loyal. I feel like it changes the dynamic: they are less likely to support the specific positions taken by those they care about, but are very likely to support the people themselves.
> 
> ...


Would have to agree with all of this. You really hit the nail on the head here, there's honestly nothing I can say.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Figure said:


> I have found that 1's, 2's, some CP 6's, and 8's are the most loyal. *Regardless of their involvement or lack thereof in someone or something, they are more willing to take self-endangering action in a difficult situation. They may or may not have been committed all along, but show their heart through action when it matters.*


this is very true.


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## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

I did not pick my type because I do not want to have an overwhelming sense of loyalty because of which I will kill myself if only to be loyal to another and I dont want that. 

I want to live for myself, not for some random, abstract value.


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## Kingpin (Aug 14, 2013)

One's and Sixes


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## o0india0o (Mar 17, 2015)

This is an interesting topic. I googled "Which Enneagram Type is the most Loyal?" and found this thread; I was searching, because two of my most loyal friends are a Type 3 and a Type 7 (both in the upper-average, to lower-healthy ranges). I found this odd, because on the surface, one would not necessarily think of either of those types as particularly "loyal". But they have both stuck by me through thick and thin; sometimes they cannot be counted on in every situation, but as far as longevity goes, they've made a point to stick with me (despite our morphing personalities throughout the years).

I cannot decide if it is type that determines loyalty or something else. The Type 3 I am mentioning, I think has a strong arrow to Type 6, and the Type 7 is a 6-winger. 

I'm not sure health level matters either (at least for some Types or instinctual variants), because my father is quite an unhealthy Type 1, and he is fiercely loyal to friends and family (the unhealthy bit comes into play, when for example, at times he should not be so loyal in the ways he is towards some individuals).

I was kicking around the idea of loyalty being related to instinctual variants on some level. I've noticed that people who tend to be the most fiercely loyal, (in my experience) have always tended to have an SX instinct somewhere in their stacking (first or second). What do others think of this idea? I cannot back it up with ideology, other than I think it might make people more passionate and, well, "fierce". It's just something I've noticed. People I've met with SX-last always seem a bit more indifferent and distant.

I'd say I'm a fairly loyal individual, and I'm a 7w6; I'm inclined to state that 7w8 are less loyal, but I'm not sure.

As far as Type 8 goes, I know some Type 8's that are loyal to those they care about to a fault, and than other Type 8's whom can cut and run unflinchingly. So, this tends to lead me to question loyalty boiling down to Type. . .it seems like there is something else there (instinctual variant perhaps?).


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 8s on the other hand (in the average and healthy range) exhibit a more selfless loyalty, which often takes on a "mother bear" sort of quality. 8s often sustain significant losses for the sake of looking out for their own without much caring or wanting credit for it (if anything, bringing it up would probably embarrass them a little)


I can relate to this the most(not an 8 though)

I'm a bit unpredictable though,most people I consider myself loyal to would be really surprised if they found out because often they don't really deserve it(either basically nobodies to me or even a bit of "enemies"),but there's just _something_ about them that separates them from the rest


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Hmm, thinking about it, I probably am loyal, but I don't... idealise loyalty for the sake of loyalty, I would say? It's more like if I value my relation with someone why would I want to betray them. Although once I've made a promise I would feel bad for breaking that, so I prefer not to make many promises unless they seem easy to keep. 

Honestly, I can see different types being loyal for different reasons. I agree 6 isn't necessarily the most loyal despite being called the loyalist. =P


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

Poor 3s


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

There's gotta be a reason why type 6 is called the "Loyalist". Any type can be loyal of course.


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## Emeraude (Nov 12, 2014)

i voted for 2...not only bcoz i'm a two, but yeah...maybe half of it is bcoz i know how 'loyal' i am...

poor 3s -.- though.

but i guess they're right... 6's are not loyal for the reason that they are "loyalists"...its more about their fear of abandonment that makes them loyal. i have a type 6 ISFP friend which can be loyal, yes but apart from that, its apparent that its more about her fears/anxiety that make her 'loyal'...it has nothing to do with the description...

i guess being 'loyal' is not only limited to enneatypes, but coupled with MBTI types... the most loyal ones for me are mostly the introverted intuitives and some sensors like ISTJ... ESFJ/ESFP/ESTP are listed as my no-no's (according to my exp. of course)


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

He's a Superhero! said:


> There's gotta be a reason why type 6 is called the "Loyalist". Any type can be loyal of course.


one of my biggest qualms about the Enneagram is that the titles are misleading as fuck. "The Loyalist" for 6, "The Helper" for 2 and "The Romantic" for 4 are the worst offenders


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> one of my biggest qualms about the Enneagram is that the titles are misleading as fuck. "The Loyalist" for 6, "The Helper" for 2 and "The Romantic" for 4 are the worst offenders


Yeah, I never cared much for "Romantic." What would you label a 4 as?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

The Scorched Earth said:


> Yeah, I never cared much for "Romantic." What would you label a 4 as?


"The Bohemian" works alright, but the subtypes of 4 are so different that it's hard to say


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in my opinion, the most loyal type is, oddly enough, 8.
> 
> many would think 6, but, in my experience, 6's loyalty tends to be more shallow than it is portrayed in descriptions. typically, it stems from a much more fear based motive: fearing abandonment. once the mentor/authority figure/friend/lover etc proves to no longer be a source of security, many 6s are just as quick to turn on them.


I don't normally 'turn on' any of those people in the sense of breaking off contact with them or berating them. But I do get a shock when a 'mentor' gets extremely fretful about a problem that is easy for me to solve. I will support them in such a situation (role reversal), but it irritates me unduly. 
I do agree however that E6= loyalist doesn't necessarily mean they are the most loyal type. I can't speak for all 6s, but for me it means that I've got major issues with loyalty. It's one of my obsessions (at least when I'm fixated) which gives me anxiety. E.g. "Should I choose this career as my mentor recommended so that I don't disappoint him? Or should I choose the career I want because I think it's better for me? I think I'm right, but I might be wrong because I'm only a stupid child and my mentor knows everything. Will they still like me if I disobey them? The fuck, stop thinking about liking, it doesn't matter. Why is this mentor being such an adoptive father/mother, as if real parents weren't bad enough? Why do I have to conform to their will, I hate it when people tell me what to do, they should mind their own business. I want them to tell me what to do, but then I want them to give the 'right' answer." And so on.
So this is a lot of fucked-up issues revolving around loyalty, but not necessarily loyalty itself.


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