# Sympathy vs Empathy Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te



## S8on (Nov 23, 2013)

So I read a lot on Fe vs Fi and sympathy vs empathy. Everybody argues that their type empathizes while the other sympathizes? However, I see it's more of they're capable of both, they just do it differently. 

Fe/Ti users would empathize directly with Fe. They directly feel other people's emotions and have a direct emotional understanding of what another person is feeling. However the Ti would make them want to rationalize these feelings, thus they may misunderstand emotions if it doesn't fit into their Ti internal models, which is why they might try to sympathize instead of empathizing.

Fi/Te users would sympathize first with Te. They understand the emotions another exhibits by comparing it to objective models. If they correctly understand that emotion and have themselves experienced it before, they are able to empathize based on past experiences with Fi. If the emotion they observe doesn't fit into an objective Te model, they may be unable to use their Fi correctly to empathize.


Ti tries to sympathize by rationally interpreting what is empathized by Fe

Fi tries to empathize by what is objectively occurring based on Te

does this make sense or am I spewing out random shiz


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## stormyapril (Sep 18, 2013)

S8on said:


> Ti tries to sympathize by rationally interpreting what is empathized by Fe
> 
> Fi tries to empathize by what is objectively occurring based on Te


Oh nice! no shiz - as I am working on digging into functions and your description above about Fe external to Ti internal "feels" correct to me. I frequently describe Ti as using the information both from Fe and Fi and translating into data. The Fi connection is more vague, but with the amount of major emotional life events I have experienced can tell when my Ti primary internal function is being hijacked by Fi. Granted it is not pretty and because I am not a native Fi type, it feels awful/grandiose and clunky, but it is there.

Thanks!


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## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

Here's a post I made on this subject wayyy back. I love quoting myself, lololol



> It's not as simple as 'Fi is empathy and Fe is sympathy', but that is good to use an an analogy to get your head around these two functions.
> 
> Empathy is when you feel sorry for somebody because you can relate to them, whereas sympathy is when you feel sorry for somebody because of whatever happened to them in and of itself. It doesn't have the same personal element that empathy has.
> 
> Because Fi deals with individual and personal values, it sees other people as individuals too, and therefore an Fi user can put themselves in another's shoes and imagine what it is like to be them, which is essentially what empathy is. Fe deals with universal values, so it's going to be more sympathetic than empathetic. So let's say 'horrible thing X' happens to you. An Fe user is going to be like 'horrible thing X is horrible (universal value), so therefore your experience must have been horrible by definition because horrible thing X happened to you', whereas an Fi user is more like 'when I imagine horrible thing X happening to me it is horrible so therefore your experience must have been horrible too'.


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## S8on (Nov 23, 2013)

I think I did read that post as I was trying to figure this out. Our defining of sympathy/empathy is a bit different. 

Empathy I define as feeling what another person feels. Nothing to do with being sorry for them. Positively empathizing would be saying "I understand how you feel and I am here for you"

Sympathy I define as knowing how that they have a certain feeling and thus maybe feeling sorry for them. This is why sympathy could be better for advice but may come out as insensitive.


An Fe/Ti person sees someone sad and tries to understand the situation by becoming the other person. They experience what the other person feels with Fe. Then, they may try to sympathize with Ti which is why they may come out as cold.

A Te/Fi person sees the same sad person and tries to put themselves in the other person's shoes. They experience what they would feel if the situation had happened to them which is Te. Then they are able to empathize with Fi.


My Fi friend was complaining that Fe may sometimes seem like some kind of "superpower" in that you can experience another's "raw emotions". But the drawback is that you can't do anything more without Ti rationalizing the meaning of those emotions. This is why Fe users who aren't rationalizing can easily get angry at the simplest words.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

The ability to "experience another's emotions" is not necessarily an Fe or Fi or Te or Ti thing, because what people mean by this is varied. How can you "experience another's emotions" when they are...their emotions, their internal processes? What people get at is _merging_ their sense of sadness or hope with that of another, usually, and the merging is still some kind of abstract thing. Perhaps some kind of socionics-ified Ni-Fe _could_ come into play into this, I'm not discounting that.

But as a rule, in the general formulation, Fe can be applied without the individual ever internalizing another's emotions the way you seem to be getting at, and can actually be quite detached in its rationalizations on the contrary.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

As Velasquez gets at, it's not as simple as one function being one. I've seen on the Lenore-Thompson 16types page a link drawn between Fi and empathy, and that's dandy, but it's misunderstanding Fi to think it must be about internalizing another's emotions, making them one's own -- actually I could see an Fi user being very _opposed_​ to this.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

I think both Fe and Te can taste the nuts and bolts of others' situations, but while Fe can relate from feeling the feels in the present via absorbing some of the mood, Fi can relate from feeling the feels in the past via experience. But situation wise I think Te can see a better scope when it comes to related consequences playing out in the objective world for the person, if all other things are equal, while perhaps Fe can do similar but on an emotional dimension to things.

Both function sets seem useful in their own ways, both Fi/Te and Ti/Fe.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

S8on said:


> does this make sense or am I spewing out random shiz


Nah. You're just learning. The dumbest you thing you can do is be too afraid to ask the dumbest question you wanted to ask.


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## S8on (Nov 23, 2013)

I think I have a general understanding that makes sense to me and I can distinguish them, I'm trying to find a way be able to explain my ideas to others. I'm not trying to say that Fe just absorbs emotions and Fi internalizes somebody else's. I'm trying to say more so that when understanding somebody else, Fe will instinctually think about how the other person might feel based on an understanding of the other person and interpret the situation based on that. Fi would instinctually think about how they would feel if they were the other person's shoes.


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## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

S8on said:


> Empathy I define as feeling what another person feels. Nothing to do with being sorry for them.


Yes, this is what I meant to say, I just used the wrong words.

Fe is far more detached than you make it out to be though. It has less to do with the actual individual who is in the room and more to do with 'what is the appropriate thing to do here given what I know about people in general?'


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## S8on (Nov 23, 2013)

I agree with that, and if I made Fe seem that way than I guess I wasn't thorough/specific enough in my description!

How about Fe TRIES to be very attached to the general ambiance of the room so Ti can (try to) determine an appropriate thing to do with people in general.


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## Grain of Sugar (Sep 17, 2013)

In my experience, Fi is faster with feeling with others. Or however we want to call it. 

ex. a girl started crying and the Fis immediately followed crying. Notice: not the girls' friends. The Fes (2x Fe/Ti and Ti/Fe (me)) + probabely Fe didn't do anything. For me it seemed like the Fes thought like "I know how you feel, because it is- in *social* *standard*- horrible what happened to you,(if you're not telling a lie) And now? How shall I react?"
And Fi:"I imagine it done to *me*(individual), that's horrible; I understand you and therefore I cry with you." 


For me it holds true that if I see, hear for instance cruelty, I am usually shocked by it and I think it's disgusting, I may feel anger about the world, but I do not feel the pain myself. I avoid the words empathy and sympathy at the moment, now that I'm confused.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

BlueberryCupcake said:


> In my experience, Fi is faster with feeling with others. Or however we want to call it.
> 
> ex. a girl started crying and the Fis immediately followed crying. Notice: not the girls' friends. The Fes (2x Fe/Ti and Ti/Fe (me)) + probabely Fe didn't do anything. For me it seemed like the Fes thought like "I know how you feel, because it is- in *social* *standard*- horrible what happened to you,(if you're not telling a lie) And now? How shall I react?"
> And Fi:"I imagine it done to *me*(individual), that's horrible; I understand you and therefore I cry with you."
> ...


Actually, I think you got of got this backwards. It would be the Fe that might to start randomly cry too. Fi would just look sad but not say anything likely. 

And you can't compare yourself as an inferior Feeler to those with dominant Feeling. Of course you feel more disconnected.


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## Grain of Sugar (Sep 17, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Actually, I think you got of got this backwards. It would be the Fe that might to start randomly cry too. Fi would just look sad but not say anything likely.
> 
> And you can't compare yourself as an inferior Feeler to those with dominant Feeling. Of course you feel more disconnected.


100% sure they are Fis. And the 2 others Fes. Just wanted to share my experience. 
Fe would start crying? Because it's affected by other people's emotions? Is it really that simple?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

BlueberryCupcake said:


> 100% sure they are Fis. And the 2 others Fes. Just wanted to share my experience.
> Fe would start crying? Because it's affected by other people's emotions? Is it really that simple?


Because they merge and unite with other people's feelings and because to them crying is a way to express their "relational bond" of emotion they experience with you. Fi would think that crying would never sufficiently convey the depth of suffering and thus wouldn't express it at all because if the suffering is great enough, expressing outwards sympathy such as crying, asking how they feel etc is just seen as too blasé and platitude-like. It's lacking depth and trivializes the experience itself when it's clear no words or no expressions can sufficiently convey what is being experienced therefore, it's better to just feel with them as in feeling the depth of experience without saying or doing anything. Take these scenes. They're a perfect example of how Fe doms would react and think:

Bleach 462 - Read Bleach 462 Online - Page 6
Bleach 462 - Read Bleach 462 Online - Page 7
Bleach 462 - Read Bleach 462 Online - Page 8

To me this is such a trivialization of experience. She's only concerned about the fact he's crying and that makes her sad, but she apparently doesn't give a fuck or has any interest to understand why he's crying and why he's actually upset. 

See, here, on this page, we see two Fi types interacting about sadness in a sense (Ichigo INFP, Riruka ESFP):

Bleach 478 - Read Bleach 478 Online - Page 12

Pay attention to how emotional expression is highly subdued. It's there, but it's more of a subtle thing you notice in the way they just seem kind of "heavy". Notice now how Orihime the ESFJ reacts to Riruka:

Bleach 478 - Read Bleach 478 Online - Page 13
Bleach 478 - Read Bleach 478 Online - Page 15

Look at how Orihime thinks that crying with Riruka would somehow make Riruka feel better. That's Fe think in a nutshell, specifically ESFJ think, and how she tells Riruka not to cry. All I can think of here is wtf? That's not how Fi works anyway. Imagine if it was Ichigo in Orihime's stead. He's just look sad and blue and let Riruka cry on her own and say nothing.


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## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

First of all, I think both are perfectly able to empathise and sympathise. I don't particularly like the attempts to latch either on to a specific function, although I can see why Fe is more commonly linked to _expressing_ sympathy (expression = outward), and Fi to _feeling_ empathy (feeling = inward). I think it's much more complicated than that though.

I also don't think that Fe is necessarily more likely to join in laughing, crying etc. It's much more situational than that. I'll try to explain how personally perceive it (might be totally off)...

Fe's reference is the object. That doesn't mean though I will haphazardly join in to whatever emotion someone else is expressing. If someone cries, I am much more likely to evaluate what would make *them* feel better (and I think that if some "Fe/Ti oscillation" starts in that situation, it can actually even come across "Te-ish" to some people). It's a very conscious process. I simply try to help, be kind and appropriate (of course our perception of "kind and appropriate" can on occasion be perceived out of place, it's not like we're mind-readers or something. I think these flukes are less likely to happen with age/experience though). And trying to understand why they are crying definitely has a part in that, because if I don't, I can't help. Quite simple really.

Blubbering along on the other hand is not something I usually do, it totally impairs judgment in my world. My behaviour of choice could be any of those:


leaving them alone and retreat
offering comfort (both silent or through talking)
trying to make them laugh
snapping them out of it and kicking their butt 
...

That doesn't mean that I can't get emotional and cry along on occasion, but I don't perceive that as a Fe trait if I'm honest. It usually happens when something hits too close to home, when the focus actually shifts from outside to inside (myself). 
So on that note, I could understand why someone would actually think Fi might be more likely to join in crying than Fe, or that Fi might be related to empathy, whilst Fe detaches itself and seeks to express sympathy. I think however that in the case of Fe, past felt empathy can feed and improve present sympathising - I don't necessarily need to feel strong empathy in the moment to sympathise though, if that makes any sense? 
(I probably worded that shittily, but that's how I perceive it.)

I am much more likely to "join in" when positive emotions are expressed, because it has less potential to step on someone's toes, and I also think it makes bonding/opening up easier.

Also, the place in the stacking certainly has an influence. A Fe dom will probably react completely differently compared to someone with inferior Fe. I'd imagine the same applies to Fi.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

FallingSlowly said:


> First of all, I think both are perfectly able to empathise and sympathise. I don't particularly like the attempts to latch either on to a specific function, although I can see why Fe is more commonly linked to _expressing_ sympathy (expression = outward), and Fi to _feeling_ empathy (feeling = inward). I think it's much more complicated than that though.
> 
> I also don't think that Fe is necessarily more likely to join in laughing, crying etc. It's much more situational than that. I'll try to explain how personally perceive it (might be totally off)...
> 
> ...


I agree with your post as a whole, though I want to point out I think an xSFJ is far more likely to do the above because they also feel other people's feelings in their body in a sense, but xNFJs don't in the same way, so they may be more detached and cold in contrast.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Because they merge and unite with other people's feelings and because to them crying is a way to express their "relational bond" of emotion they experience with you. Fi would think that crying would never sufficiently convey the depth of suffering and thus wouldn't express it at all because if the suffering is great enough, expressing outwards sympathy such as crying, asking how they feel etc is just seen as too blasé and platitude-like. It's lacking depth and trivializes the experience itself when it's clear no words or no expressions can sufficiently convey what is being experienced therefore, it's better to just feel with them as in feeling the depth of experience without saying or doing anything.


Can't say I ever put that much thought into it when I cry. It's just a physical reaction that happens when I can't hold it back anymore, like throwing up when I feel sick. I get what you're saying, but it's not how I'm prone to think. Although I might feel like I "should" feel with other people when they are sad, but it doesn't come that naturally. I think...

I don't know, I often thought I was too lacking in sympathy and for other people, though I guess that depends. Of course, experience helps.

(I'm a little sleep-deprived, but hopefully being coherent.)


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> I agree with your post as a whole, though I want to point out I think an xSFJ is far more likely to do the above because they also feel other people's feelings in their body in a sense, but xNFJs don't in the same way, so they may be more detached and cold in contrast.


Why is that? Si vs Se in combination with Fe? Please explain you got me curios.


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