# Unhealthy Fi



## Lunaena (Nov 16, 2013)

How do you think an unhealthy Fi is like?


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Depends on its illness. I've heard it coughs up a lot of mucous. :kitteh:


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## middle_aged_enfp (Nov 6, 2013)

As a cognitive function, Fi behaves differently in different positions (Dom/Aux/Tert/Inf). Unhealthy Fi also looks different, therefore, depending on where it is placed.

Typically, however, when placed in Tert/Inf, Fi is under-developed (though that is different from calling it unhealthy!) for a good while. Somewhere around middle-age and into old-age, these latter two positions are evolved. In young people who haven't yet had a lot of world-experience, Tert Fi may manifest as a yearning to feel like 'good people', but without the power or inclination to actually do anything about it. The Tertiary, by nature, is a helpless position. It wants to act out that function, but finds it frustratingly hard to actually act on it. Even if the person does take the action to make the Tert-function feel fulfilled, they find it exhausting to engage in that action and run out of energy in a while. Thus, the Tert. position function continues to languish in this helpless, longing, unfulfilled state. Under pressure (not stress), this function is activated, allowing the person to find the moral authority in one's own value system to pronounce judgements on one's own actions. That is, "I am good enough" or "I can do this, because it is right for me in my context." are some rationalizations that arise. When well-developed, it gives the ITJs the self-confidence and personal moral compass to judge their own actions with. 

In the Inferior position, it is a source of doubt or a veritable blind-spot. In the ETJs, it causes them to ignore subjective feelings and values from within themselves. They may therefore act without consideration for what is commonly called 'the call of conscience'. Normally, in ETJs, due to social conditioning and regular upbringing, the moral compass isn't completely lost and they don't indulge in heavy-handed activities beyond a point. However, it is the absence or confusing nature of a poorly developed Fi that allows a Hitler or a Stalin to order mass killings to achieve a grander/larger goal. They fail to consult their inner conscience-keeper and value system before launching into action. Used differently, it results in a Lee Kwan Yew who puts order in Singapore at the expense of the personal space and values of thousands of people. The end justifies the means, whatever that may be.

When used well, in the Tertiary position, Fi only serves to prevent the IxTJ from doing anything that may be construed as morally out of line. They may not actually act and do anything useful to strengthen the moral code, but at least they won't do anything wrong that violates the code! Helpless, but largely harmless. 

When used well, even in the Inf. position, the Fi only serves to stay out of the way of logical decision making of the ExTJ. The decision processes in the mind are kept simple by avoiding 'fuzzy inputs' such as subjective, value-based feelings. This allows for quick and efficient closure of issues.

Does this seem correct?


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## Becker (Oct 19, 2013)

"There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life's situations."

People with Fi, tend to weigh themselves on the importance and worth that others place on them, doing this to others in the process. So an unhealthy Fi would be somebody with a broken value system, feeling bad intentions where there aren't any. They would become irrational and selfish, turning their feelings into action in spite of others.


Citation: http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Introverted-Feeling.cfm


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## middle_aged_enfp (Nov 6, 2013)

Becker said:


> People with Fi, tend to weigh themselves on the importance and worth that others place on them, doing this to others in the process. So an unhealthy Fi would be somebody with a broken value system, feeling bad intentions where there aren't any. They would become irrational and selfish, turning their feelings into action in spite of others.



hmm... not sure if I have understood this right. Doesn't seem to match my understanding and experience of Fi. 

Does Fi judge its worth based on external validation? That sounds like Fe to me. Pleasing the world is Fe. You may ask, "why then does an ENFP seek to please the world?" Auxiliary Fi, when paired with an Ne-dom, seems like validation-hunting to the external observer. That is at best Fe-mimicry; Ne's external projection of Fi concerns. However, that is not true Fi behaviour. 

Fi, as far as I know, resolutely believes in its own value system, judging actions against a very subjective, internal yardstick. If the world doesn't approve, so be it! A lot of the quirkiness of an ENFP comes from this internal self-confidence from knowing that what he does is in accordance with his own grain. He has approved his own actions, so to speak!  If society or parents or other authority figures don't, that's too bad. It doesn't feel good to see the world unhappy (Ne predicts all sorts of consequences to making people unhappy), but integrity to the core is more important. Authenticity to the self is practically a duty in the ENFP's eyes!

Attributing intentions/motivations to people's actions and in general, 'witch-hunting' of people's motives is definitely not ENFP, afaik. Even under stress, the ENFP does not resort to ulterior-motive-attribution to the other person's actions. The ENFP may rebel, get sarcastic, become belligerent, totally withdrawn, attack word-for-word like a lawyer, even get violent - but I don't know if typical ENFPs (even under stress) resort to conspiracy theories! That is SxJ territory.  Even ENFJs and INFJs may be culpable in sometimes adopting this tendency.

Sorry to disagree thus, but I seek clarification and help in understanding what you were trying to say. And do correct me if my analysis is wrong.


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## bri5989 (Sep 2, 2013)

examples of negative Fi:

-thinking someone is innately 'bad' based off of one thing they said/did that you didn't like
-assuming no one would understand what you are feeling
-taking things personally and not letting them go..like...ever
-being very opinionated about ethical things even when you aren't educated on the topic
-self-pity talk, making others feel bad for you, maybe?

none of this is from personal experience.... :laughing:


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

I've been dealing with an immature Fi dominant, and yeah, it's not fun. Especially not when it's an adult who thinks they're being rational when they're just being childish, petty, and hypocritical.

The thing is, though, my mother is Fi dominant but she's lived an entire life's experiences so she's quite mature. I can respect her. Immature Fi doms, no, not at all. I don't like interacting with them. Most stubborn personality in that human being that I've ever met, unable to view an issue from the perspective of other people.

My INFP best friend is 30 and really beginning to get comfortable suspending that Introverted Feeling long enough to consider that her intentions vs. the effect of her actions aren't lining up with the outcome she wanted, that a person she cares about reacted in a way that she needed to make sense of from outside of her internal value system. I admire that, and I can respect that. That's a willingness to learn, and truly consider values, morals, ethics, rights that are different from one's own. My friend admits it's not easy to try on an Extraverted Feeling point of view, but she still wanted to make the effort and I'm proud of her for that.

This other Fi dom who is immature, though, I'm sick of the person. Fed up. I just don't want to even deal with the person because the obliviousness and selfishness went into a self-justifying spiral of alienating the rest of us. It's as if there's this filter on the person's brain that only hears what it wants to hear. It's caused a lot of problems and social tension. Very unhealthy. Borders on delusional, even. It's made the person very tunnel vision and manipulative. Two-faced, even. 

Violating that Fi's principles, suddenly everyone who wronged the person is an enemy. There has been no stopping to realize, acknowledge, and admit that those Fi principles were stepped on only because our principles were the ones first stepped on, dismissed, and stepped on again after repeated requests that it stop. There's a complete lack of understanding of cause and effect because it's Fi as internal judgment which is paired with Te, not Ti. In this case, the inferior Te just looks at a big logical picture fabricated from Fi being insulted and sees whatever big picture suits its injured pride.

Mature Fi, I can handle that and respect it. Otherwise, no.

If the only compassion a person understands is the kind that serves them then they don't understand compassion, they just want sympathy. The kind of person who wants sympathy but never gives it is what I call a victim and I cannot stand that mentality. The worst part of being around this unhealthy person is that it causes these abnormal tendencies in me to act as selfishly as that person has been, but then they STILL don't get the message- the unhealthy person's behavior stays bad and in that situation can only get worse.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

Like the worst sort of child, potentially armed with the means of a full grown adult depending on the individual in question.

But then again, worst comes in so many flavors.


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## Kizuna (Jul 30, 2011)

Sweetish said:


> This other Fi dom who is immature, though, I'm sick of the person. Fed up. I just don't want to even deal with the person because the obliviousness and selfishness went into a self-justifying spiral of alienating the rest of us. It's as if there's this filter on the person's brain that only hears what it wants to hear. It's caused a lot of problems and social tension. Very unhealthy. Borders on delusional, even. It's made the person very tunnel vision and manipulative. Two-faced, even.
> 
> Violating that Fi's principles, suddenly everyone who wronged the person is an enemy. There has been no stopping to realize, acknowledge, and admit that those Fi principles were stepped on only because our principles were the ones first stepped on, dismissed, and stepped on again after repeated requests that it stop. There's a complete lack of understanding of cause and effect because it's Fi as internal judgment which is paired with Te, not Ti. In this case, the inferior Te just looks at a big logical picture fabricated from Fi being insulted and sees whatever big picture suits its injured pride.


OMG you just perfectly described my younger sister!!! This is SO true, sadly, unfortunately, you are _so_ right! It is a nightmare.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Being too morally strung seems to be my issue. I find being around types that don't value Fi to lack a moral compass, and I find that I tend to be critical of those people.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

firedell said:


> Being too morally strung seems to be my issue. I find being around types that don't value Fi to lack a moral compass, and I find that I tend to be critical of those people.


Could you explain what you mean by lacking a moral compass? Examples would help


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

SuperSoaker said:


> Could you explain what you mean by lacking a moral compass? Examples would help


By that I mean someone who changes their morals given the situation. Having more grey area's when it comes to making decisions. Not standing by what they believe is right, and I don't mean logically correct, I mean ethically. 

I'm not saying those who lack it are bad people, I just don't understand it. I respect those who stick with what they believe despite the opposition even if I don't agree with them.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

firedell said:


> By that I mean someone who changes their morals given the situation. Having more grey area's when it comes to making decisions. Not standing by what they believe is right, and I don't mean logically correct, I mean ethically.
> 
> I'm not saying those who lack it are bad people, I just don't understand it. I respect those who stick with what they believe despite the opposition even if I don't agree with them.


Which could translate to someone using Fe and not standing their ground for the better of the group?


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## ElectricHead (Jun 3, 2011)

firedell said:


> By that I mean someone who changes their morals given the situation. Having more grey area's when it comes to making decisions. Not standing by what they believe is right, and I don't mean logically correct, I mean ethically.
> 
> I'm not saying those who lack it are bad people, I just don't understand it. I respect those who stick with what they believe despite the opposition even if I don't agree with them.


Haha, yeah, this sounds a lot like me. I blame the Ne. "Maybe in this one situation, it's wrong to do this or that, but in another similar situation, it's okay depending on the circumstances". That happens all the time and I'll even confuse myself ... "So how DO I feel about this again?" 
I can see how one would view this as flaky or without direction, but when digging past the surface it might make sense... if they can explain it at all of course. 
One thing I've noticed about FiSe is the opposite. The one's I've known tend to be very ... I wouldn't say rigid... but definitely a bit stubborn in their values. My best friend (ISFP) is this way, but luckily he has me to throw the Ne possibilities at him and he will sometimes change his perceptions and judgements. He'll have the opposite affect on me... we (other friends) often refer to him as "The Saint" because his values and ability to remain dedicated to those values make him awesome. So while sometimes I'll give him multiple possibilities or perspectives and he'll alter his values accordingly, other times, he'll consider it all and then think that those other perspectives are bullshit and don't change how he feels. He's great at pushing some of the Ne scraps into the garbage disposal and flipping the switch (and I thank him for making me a better person in many ways). Like a rock.


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## Nightchill (Oct 19, 2013)

ufohjerneblodning said:


> How do you think an unhealthy Fi is like?


I've met (past tense, action finished thankfully) 2 I'm fairly sure. Common traits are: 

1. Narcissism; in form of being convinced that one's own view at the time is superior to all others and is to apply to others, even when presented with evidence or constructive argument that proves contrary...usually lacking important info when forming an opinion. 
Me, myself and I. My experience. 'I am the measure of all things.' I always start from myself , blah, blah

2. Upholding false virtues. Great chasm between word and actions. Keyboard warriors of great moral superiority. Think of themselves as paragons of virtue, usually philanthropists, yet have _done _almost nothing to help other people. No activism, nothing.
Condemning others for what they do with no problem.

One of practical examples, there was this girl that claimed to love people and care about knowledge. She shared photo on fb of this girl who ask a silly question about gravity I think. But she wanted to learn. Instead of helping her or berating people who insult her, she fun of her with her pals. I berated her and later she called me a misanthrope for condemning people who gossip, insult, humiliate. 

Or when she published this wretched comedian that said sth along the line 'men who shave their legs, probably share their vaginas as well' for hundreds of contacts to see. In pm I wanted to discuss it and expressed my distaste. She said I'm insulting hairy men because I dislike them, but it was okay for her to post something obviously aimed at insulting and jeopardizing people publicly. wow
This is where her 'people being themselves' and 'it's no one's business' failed.


When asked to clarify their outbursts: 'I don't have to explain myself to you', but they don't have trouble asking you do explain yourself, making assumptions way off the mark and rubbing it in your face.

You go figure that. It's f*cked up.


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## UniversalTruth (Dec 27, 2013)

I believe Fi is an advancement over the emotion of Sadness and so it shares it's goals of preventing and responding to loss by seeking empathy. An unhealthy Sadness would not accurately identify losses (miss important losses or invent ones that don't really exist) and would not succeed at gaining the empathy of others. A pathological liar comes to mind as a result of a very unhealthy Fi (not just Fi dominants but Fi auxiliary who are the most seeking of empathy), who invents stories in the short term to gain the empathy of others, not seeing how it will ultimately be bad in the longer term.

A separate issue could arise where the Fi is functioning well and seeking empathy, but for various reasons is not gaining any empathy from others. I think in this case Fi dominants are prone to depression since Fi is really an advancement of sadness, a large loss paired with little empathy from others will result in extreme sadness with no release.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

UniversalTruth said:


> I believe Fi is an advancement over the emotion of Sadness and so it shares it's goals of preventing and responding to loss by seeking empathy. An unhealthy Sadness would not accurately identify losses (miss important losses or invent ones that don't really exist) and would not succeed at gaining the empathy of others. A pathological liar comes to mind as a result of a very unhealthy Fi (not just Fi dominants but Fi auxiliary who are the most seeking of empathy), who invents stories in the short term to gain the empathy of others, not seeing how it will ultimately be bad in the longer term.
> 
> A separate issue could arise where the Fi is functioning well and seeking empathy, but for various reasons is not gaining any empathy from others. I think in this case Fi dominants are prone to depression since Fi is really an advancement of sadness, a large loss paired with little empathy from others will result in extreme sadness with no release.


Interesting, so do you think there's a correlation between Machiavellianism and Fi? I've met an an unhealthy ESFP (I think) that shared all of those negative traits (she believed her own lies and in the long term it all went sour for her). 

Also why would Fi aux be more prone to be a pathological liar than a Fi Dom?


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

I agree with @middle_aged_enfp it depends on the position.

The common theme with unhealthy Fi is the _ignorance of values_. In inferior-Fi types, they tend to ignore values completely, maybe even to a sadistic extent where they may purposely go against subjective emotions for the sake of it. This can allow them to forget what's most important to them in the end.

Fi-dominants on the other hand, they may work on the basis of their feelings alone and then, lash out at people who they may care about as a response. 

You can't be too sure about whether unhealthy Fi isn't influenced by unhealthy Te, because types don't exist with one function but in axes/groups of functions in a person IRL.


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## Mammon (Jul 12, 2012)

firedell said:


> By that I mean someone who changes their morals given the situation. Having more grey area's when it comes to making decisions. Not standing by what they believe is right, and I don't mean logically correct, I mean ethically.
> 
> I'm not saying those who lack it are bad people, I just don't understand it. I respect those who stick with what they believe despite the opposition even if I don't agree with them.


I do that a lot. Some, if not most of my values seem to be dependant on my mood/situation. Which is confusing because often times I do not know where I really stand with things and if I really truly believe in them. So when I'm trying to identify myself with the things I believe in, I can't really. It seems my values are more 'mechanical.' When in doubt or confused, I often times find myself not always asking how I feel about them but also asking what worth and more importantly what truth it holds. I realize the way a person feels about things is merely an evolutionary process of the human group mind in favor of survival and cooperation. That is all. So to me there's no real stable truth to them in this sense. Truly, values are often but a means to an end, illusionary so.

This is _my_ Fe/Ti value system. This does not mean I'm a robot though lol I too am part of that evolutionary process so I too attach emotions and feelings to things, it's just.. see above =)

I just hope this helps you understand why some people appear to have a 'less stable value system.'

Sorry for going _somewhat_ off topic! Carry on.


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## UniversalTruth (Dec 27, 2013)

> Interesting, so do you think there's a correlation between Machiavellianism and Fi


Wikipedia says about Machiavellianism: "The word has a similar use in modern psychology where it describes one of the dark triad personalities, characterised by a duplicitous interpersonal style associated with cynical beliefs and pragmatic morality". I think this has to do with a person having unhealthy morals in general and is not at all related to Fi specifically.



> Also why would Fi aux be more prone to be a pathological liar than a Fi Dom?


I really don't know if that is true and let's be clear this is all under the assumption of an unhealthy person. The reason it may be true for unhealthy people is because the auxiliary role determines the form and execution of a person's behavior. So people who have sadness specialized to their auxiliary role use the behavioral reaction of sadness which is to "seek empathy". An easy way to get empathy in the short term is to make things up if the person believes you. Sadness dominants on the other hand use sadness as a way of coming up with ideas, planning, and searching for good behavioral reactions (which use either "examination" in the case of the INFP or "grooming/acceptance" in the case of the ISFP).


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