# Losing yourself in the Enneagram, or any other typology system



## Lunar Light (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm writing this thread to caution both newbies and remind old-timers of this. Whether it happens at the very start or further down the road, I believe defining yourself by typology can easily become self-defeating.

At the end of the day, you are you. Such an obvious statement, but it's not hard to let types become you in a sense. It's not hard to use labels as excuses or explanations for behavior. 

I see people write posts talking about the futility of things because they are a certain type and while I am generally sympathetic, it's become annoying. What does being an INFP really mean in the context of you struggling with something? How does that or "triple reactive" necessarily indicate *anything*, given the enormous amount of variation between not simply types but _people_? 

It used to bother me in particular when people would use types to differentiate themselves or others from me. "Oh, she's sx, so it's different." People become a collection of letters and numbers, instead of just people.

More than anything though, I hate how I did it to myself. I look at my past and I realize at a certain point, I personally ended up embracing "ENFP" and "type 4" before I re-typed at 6. In my case, I feel like the labels almost gave me permission to be myself. It gave me clarity toward the things in myself that were also characteristic of the types, which helped me to express those attributes. But in this, I feel like the unintentional obsession with the relation between me and "type X" led me away from other aspects of myself.

I desire to reclaim myself. The other day, I was going to write a post somewhere on here, raging and crying, because I was so upset at myself. I was upset at phobic 6, 2, 1 (to a lesser extent), and the implications of me likely having dependent personality disorder / DPD. 

I felt confined by the labels, and it seems I'm not alone, based upon what others say here. Instead of continuing on that line of thought, I've had to learn once again to question a mindset itself. In this case, I feel it's most pertinent to simply change the limiting idea of types needing to define me.

P.S. Going to reiterate for some of you here that the labels don't need to define anyone else, either. Pls, I don't obsessively follow rules or authority because I'm a "social 6" THANK YOU VERY MUCH .


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

This is a valuable post. I have some thoughts to add in general. 

If associating yourself with a type is causing you more harm/frustration than good, then one is probably better off distancing from it and realizing that it can in no way encapsulate your personal experiences/desires and character as a unique person. Do not sacrifice your individuality in order to ''fit better'' with a type. 

Typology theory should be a tool to aid or flesh out introspection, not something that imprisons your mindset. If type descriptions and whatnot say you should be X, but you feel Y applies better, then your experience has greater value and it doesn't mean you can't still be that type. At its core, an enneagram type is simply depicting an archetype; it is an expression of a facet of humanity. 

Another possible trap is that it can creates problems (or make one assume they have problems) that they didn't even really have in the first place. This is due to being influenced too much by what their type says. 

On the other hand, there are also cases of amplifiying issues they _do _have because the person might feel like they are condemned to be a certain way because they feel that's just how a person of their type is destined to be.

Something else I see sometimes is people attributing pretty much anything to typology. They try to pigeon-hole the slightest trait of an individual with something relating to typology. It is really problematic to see people reason everything with a system that has limited application in the first place (and containing generalities that don't always apply), even as far as to make discriminating statements or perpetuating stereotypes that make some people feel uneasy typing a certain way because people expect them to be X way when they feel they are not.


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Very well put. It's been about a year since I frequented enneagram, I think.

As I've said elsewhere, enneagram is a roadmap; it may give you a rough lay of the land, what territories are rougher than others, but ultimately, in terms of actual destiny, it says nothing or rather, nearly nothing. The integration lines are propensities or "gravitational" attractions. For instance, if terrain slopes down, water will naturally run down it, no? So the lines aren't totally without meaning, simply distorted into a fatalistic trap. So the question is:

Are you skiing or slipping?


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## Another Lost Cause (Oct 6, 2015)

Types are just rudimentary scaffolding that the rest of you is built upon, like the frame of the house or the chassis of a car. What makes you unique is the paint, the plants chosen for the landscaping, the types of siding, etc. Type is a bit like the type of OS you have on your computer, it's the basics that run the low-level hardware, but it can run a practically infinite number of unique programs and be customized in a number of ways.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Some data is lost when converting from "person" to "enneagram type." It's almost an insulting reduction, if it weren't so useful.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Not interested in Enneagram. I said before it is a paint by numbers or connect the dots picture of a painting I didn't draw. It is a very Ti system. These magical balls whizzing around, the divinity of number, it is similar to music except there is no sound. So what are you listening to? 

And now to quote William James:

*The "through-and-through" universe seems to suffocate me with its infallible impeccable all-pervasiveness. Its necessity, with no possibilities; its relations, with no subjects, make me feel as if I had entered into a contract with no reserved rights … It seems too buttoned-up and white-chokered and clean-shaven a thing to speak for the vast slow-breathing unconscious Kosmos with its dread abysses and its unknown tides.

* The difference is that the empiricists are less dazzled. Unity doesn't blind them to everything else, doesn't quench their curiosity for special facts, whereas there is a kind of rationalist who is sure to interpret abstract unity mystically and to forget everything else, to treat it as a principle; to admire and worship it; and thereupon to come to a full stop intellectually.

'The world is One!'—the formula may become a sort of number-worship. 'Three' and 'seven' have, it is true, been reckoned sacred numbers; but, abstractly taken, why is 'one' more excellent than 'forty-three,' or than 'two million and ten'? In this first vague conviction of the world's unity, there is so little to take hold of that we hardly know what we mean by it.

_All the 'combinations' which we actually know are EFFECTS, wrought by the units said to be 'combined,' UPON SOME ENTITY OTHER THAN THEMSELVES. Without this feature of a medium or vehicle, the notion of combination has no sense.

_In other words, no possible number of entities (call them as you like, whether forces, material particles, or mental elements) can sum _themselves together. Each remains, in the sum, what it always was; and the sum itself exists only for a bystander who happens to overlook the units and to [p.159] apprehend the sum as such; or else it exists in the shape of some other effect on an entity external to the sum itself. 

_"Aggregations are organized wholes only when they behave as such in the presence of other things. A statue is an aggregation of particles of marble; but as such it has no unity. For the spectator it is one; in itself it is an aggregate; just as, to the consciousness of an ant crawling over it, it may again appear a mere aggregate. No summing up of parts can make an unity of a mass of discrete constituents, unless this unity exist for some other subject, not for the mass itself."


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

I really loved your post.... I've really often seen people over-identifying with their type, congratulating themselves on how cool their type is, etc. I think the lure of personality typology is that we get this label that we believe describes our entire psyche, and it comforts us because it (mistakenly) makes us think we know who we are-- that the bizarre landscape of our minds has suddenly started to make sense. But that's an illusion, generally. knowing your personality type is like a gift from above, saying "here, this is who you are." But really it's not. 

That's not the whole story though. For me, I've in general moved from a lot of unnecessary identification, to less identification-- not just with personality, but with lots of things. The Enneagram, and all the people I met through the Enneagram, without a doubt _helped_ me do that. When you go far enough in the Enneagram, it will teach you beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are not your type.... and it will help you release all these identifications you've had all your life. 
Your Ennea-type structure is the mechanism that, all your life, has been hiding your true self from you... So by going through the Enneagram, you eventually uncover who you really are. 

So sad and ironic, then, that people identify with their Ennea-type to the point where it actually leads them to _more_ identifications, rather than the other way around....


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Lunar Light said:


> I'm writing this thread to caution both newbies and remind old-timers of this. Whether it happens at the very start or further down the road, I believe defining yourself by typology can easily become self-defeating.
> 
> At the end of the day, you are you. Such an obvious statement, but it's not hard to let types become you in a sense. It's not hard to use labels as excuses or explanations for behavior.
> 
> ...


I hear you.

I thought I found my type, but then the various incidents and suggestions and etc kept piling on. Ultimately, I was confused and out of control and hence angry. Hint: I was suggested TEN MBTI types for me and at least 4-5 different enneatypes. And if I tried to analyse it myself...forget it. So then we come to today:

I stopped paying so much attention to all this..."data" and started really listening to people(a thing I do very well btw). I find that I became much less critical and much more welcoming(as I am supposed to be). I feel like...someone breathed life into me again-life that was extinguished by the metric ton of "data" I had collected. Just act like you do and then your true type will shine. Don't even as much as think about it :wink: .

Let those who make a HELL OF($$$) a living worry about that(OPP folks etc).


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

It's ironic that many people become trapped further by the Enneagram types in the way described by the OP because the original intent was to help get out of that trap of a limiting sense of self. There's a simple understanding to it all that I've been promoting that I think helps.

The Enneagram types represent nine aspects of being human
"Your type" represents your habit of being
Once you start to become aware of that habit you can begin to find some freedom from it
With that freedom you can begin to explore all nine aspects of yourself instead of being limited to just one

Your type is "where" you are not "who" you are in this journey. It lets you know where you're starting from and gives you something to work with. Unfortunately, a lot of people take it as an endpoint. When they do that it reinforces the limitation that the original Enneagram types were meant to help overcome. This outcome is unavoidable for many because the Enneagram types were meant to be taught by a teacher that could guide the student through this exploration. It was never meant to be popularized through books as simply another way to label yourself.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

The problem with typology is when people lose themself in the system as you said.
Since the systems are so complex they can become a trap.
Especially if you have defence mechanisms that kick in when you meet up with difficult issues that the systems uncover.

There is no easy fix for this, you will just have to accept that some people will make it and some not.
Just as some people become poor and others rich in monetary terms,
so some people become "rich" in psychologic knowledge on this site and others learn crude sterotypes,
digging their own psychological graves while constructing a closed off identity that affirms the worst parts of themself.
I'm a nine so I'm supposed to not have any willpower at all.
Or I'm an 8 so I'm supposed to fight with people all the time.
Or I'm a sensor so i can never understand anything complex.

I wish I could say that there is a silverlining, and in a way there probably is.
In the end it will maybe balance out on some grand scale or something.
But hey life isn't fair in any real sense of the word.
Evolution the process that brought us here belives in concepts like selection etc.
Whoever manage to navigate themself to the top of the psychological tiers of this site
has been selected by chance to become "rich".
It isn't nice or cool or anything like that, it just is what it is.


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## Lunar Light (Jun 6, 2013)

Going to be honest, I was somewhat paranoid of making this post because it feels like it should be common sense. Thus, I was wary that many would agree but some wouldn't see its application to themselves. For anyone out there who's like me and struggles to identify with something like this because it seems so immediately obvious, perhaps embarrassingly so, this is for you:

Doing this is NOT uncommon and is not limited to behaviors generally associated with newbies, like trying to use typology in basically every application of life. Some examples are more "blatant" like that, but many are more "subtle" in a sense. 

Not sure if I explained my situation well enough, but I honestly tried to avoid many of the behaviors I described. I don't think I over-identified with my type to the point where I used it as a stand-in for an explanation of things I was struggling with. I believe my problem was that enneagram became a way of understanding myself, as I tried to express in the OP. It became something to dig deeper and deeper into in an effort to uncover more "truths" about myself. Naturally, I rejected things I believed I didn't apply to me. 

But what did apply ended up consuming me at times. It's not that something written in a type description felt like my "fate." It was that I actually saw its ugly application in my life, and somehow over time, carrying the labels felt like a reminder of my flaws, a confirmation that I simply couldn't deny. It was like, this type is "me" in many ways, this aspect of this type is fact and applies to me, so how do I fight "truth" like that? I could improve the problem, but I felt like I couldn't truly tear down the label :/.

So yeah, @Verglas, I appreciate the many good points you've made, but I fear they may not capture other possible manifestations of the issue.


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## Lunar Light (Jun 6, 2013)

charlie.elliot said:


> I really loved your post....


Thanks! I loved your post too. I agree with much of what you've said, but I find this part most interesting:



> When you go far enough in the Enneagram, it will teach you beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are not your type.... and it will help you release all these identifications you've had all your life.
> Your Ennea-type structure is the mechanism that, all your life, has been hiding your true self from you... So by going through the Enneagram, you eventually uncover who you really are.


It makes sense that this is the end goal and one of the main purposes of the enneagram. Unfortunately, it feels like it's not the point many have reached, or at least not yet. I've been here long enough to see how greater knowledge of enneagram can inspire a desire to become a spokesperson for your type. People identify _more_ with their label and see themselves as a representation of the type, and seek to correct others' interpretations of it. Like, this is "really" what Type X is. This doesn't have to be a bad thing... encouraging new thought about types and trying to get others to understand, but I feel the level of investment into it can be unproductive and misses the point you made. 

I'm currently distancing myself from typology because the continual rehashing of an abstract theory that will vary from person to person has become both tired and tiring for me.


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

Lunar Light said:


> So yeah, @_Verglas_, I appreciate the many good points you've made, but I fear they may not capture other possible manifestations of the issue.


Yea, I agree. I am aware. I was just just bringing possibly manifestations as you put it and wasn't directing my post at you specifically. I didn't necessarily suspect you would relate to my points.

I also do definitely agree none of your points are ''newbie-only'' and I am prone to fall into it myself for example because it can be so subtle as you say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're touching here is a form of ''hyper-awareness'', amplified by typology, that becomes overwhelming?


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Lunar Light said:


> Thanks! I loved your post too. I agree with much of what you've said, but I find this part most interesting:
> 
> 
> It makes sense that this is the end goal and one of the main purposes of the enneagram. Unfortunately, it feels like it's not the point many have reached, or at least not yet. I've been here long enough to see how greater knowledge of enneagram can inspire a desire to become a spokesperson for your type. People identify _more_ with their label and see themselves as a representation of the type, and seek to correct others' interpretations of it. Like, this is "really" what Type X is. This doesn't have to be a bad thing... encouraging new thought about types and trying to get others to understand, but I feel the level of investment into it can be unproductive and misses the point you made.
> ...


The only problem I have with it is that it doesn't have any proof whatsoever. What use are stuff that can't be proved?


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Ixim said:


> The only problem I have with it is that it doesn't have any proof whatsoever. What use are stuff that can't be proved?


Well sometimes when you have faith in your subjective view it can take you a long way.
An illusion to keep going for when life gets rough.
You can't prove it, but it sure has it's use in keeping your spirit up.
In this secular world full of atheists, religious drones and fundamentalist it is good that we can drink our fill
from the deep archetypal images in typology.
It is the last vestige for many, including me.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Typology is a tool. Like any tool, in order to use it well, someone has to determine

- What they intend to use it for
- What its limits are
- What its potential is
- A cost/benefit analysis of using this tool vs. another, or discarding it
- How that tool will work for them personally, given their particular strengths and weaknesses
- When to discard it because another tool is better for that purpose, or no tool at all is necessary

...etc.

There is not one, all encompassing reason to study typology. The reasons are different for everyone. In my case, I was attracted to it because I'm a writer and it helps me understand characters I've written already. (I never write "types" - I write characters and type them later.) It has ended up helping me with a lot more than that. But I do try to regard it as a tool rather than a religion. It is interesting, useful at best, but when that tool starts limiting me I discard it for the time being. I don't need to carry heavy tools with me when the job would be better done without it. 

Since typology is abstract, and becomes a state of mind, unlike a concrete tool (like a hammer), it can be difficult to compartmentalize your mind in such a way that typology comes and goes rather than remaining pervasive. So this would fall under the category of, learning how to use that tool, and how it works for you. Part of studying typology is figuring out how it is helpful and how it is hurtful. You won't master the tool overnight, especially since it's such an abstract tool. you will make blunders along the way. But ultimately, if you are mindful of your application of typology to your life and psychology, you are well on the way of becoming a person taht uses this tool for tremendous benefit, but does not become consumed by it and lose sight of what's really important. Realistically, people will sway between overusing typology and learning when it matters. There is no easy answer and each answer applies differently for everyone. Basically, learn your own rhythm with it. Find how it works for you. Using this tool is a song and a dance. You are there, the tool is there, and a relationship has to form in which there is balance, trust and mastery. It will become automatic to use it when it is helpful and discard it when it isnt useful.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

I thought it was from being an image type that I have in the past over-identified with my type, but now I see many people have done that.

The worst part was, as a 4, becoming aware of my fixations and self-defeating patterns only led me to fixate on them more obsessively. And then, I _romanticized_ them. Oh yes. That dug a deeper hole than I was prepared for.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Lunar Light said:


> I'm writing this thread to caution both newbies and remind old-timers of this. Whether it happens at the very start or further down the road, I believe defining yourself by typology can easily become self-defeating.
> 
> At the end of the day, you are you. Such an obvious statement, but it's not hard to let types become you in a sense. It's not hard to use labels as excuses or explanations for behavior.
> 
> ...


This is deeply interesting. I've considered this problem for some time. My initial thoughts were in agreement with you. It seemed limiting and self-defeating to consider myself as too similar to my type (especially when I retype so often ). However, after longer reflection I came to the conclusion that this problem isn't so bad as it at first appears. 

The reason is that the label becomes a marker for yourself and whatever you do, instead of limiting you. You're more likely to define the label as yourself instead of whatever the formal definition is. For the people who don't do this, they realize within a short time that the label isn't adding up. 

I suppose it's possible that this could be unhealthy if for some reason someone failed to come to one of those two solutions. However, most people solve this problem imo. It seems that the problem is more serious than it is because it's one of two threads that almost everyone makes at some point. The first is their typing thread. So it's pervasive, but not serious.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Been there, still there, actually. Typology made me realize so many good and bad things about myself, and identify so many things as not part of my real personality, that I'm definitely feeling the loss. I find phrases like "you are you" kind of useless since I don't know what "me" is at core, or else I don't trust or like it.

One problem I have is that I got into typology, not for self-discovery or to learn about people, but for validation. Proving myself to myself via type. Except it blew up in my face hard after I tried to shove myself in my ideal mold (and almost succeeded), and spent a year and a half paranoid about all the things that didn't fit until I had to admit I'm not just "strange" or "weirdly developed", but mistyped. And the reality is almost the opposite of the ideal. Yet that ranking and validation element has never totally gone away for me.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

One thing I like about typology is that it provides a language to explain complex issues about yourself or your relationship with other people that you may have noticed but could previously not explain or put into words to someone else. Outside of recognizing these patterns and the labels that are given to them, however, I do not enjoy trying to understand everything about myself or even people through the lens of typology. I could try to pigeonhole it that way, but especially the more important it is to me, the less I feel like I want to extrapolate on it through this lens only.

I mean, sure enough, when I am expressing a certain issue to my therapist I can sometimes go "holy shit, that's so X!" internally (usually it's something related to type 8), or I can muse over whether it says something about my wing, or my other two fixes or my instinct and so on. I kind of feel like the more I learn about the enneagram and myself, the more I feel like I am disidentifying with the whole type thing in a sense. I don't care so much whether I'm an 8 or a 3 or a 1 or what have you, though I recognize that intrinsically speaking my issues are fundamentally related to being a type 8 and of course I try to understand myself through the enneagram as well since the system exists for this reason, as much as I try to see and understand the end point of my growth pattern. The enneagram really helped me to crystallize that, by showing my strengths and weaknesses and what problem areas that are the most beneficial for me to work on over other areas. I could have done it without, but I do feel that the enneagram was really crucial in allowing myself to become truly self-aware. 

It was only after I figured out my type and really understood what it was at a more self-aware level, though I've had this feeling way before that but it was more a gut feeling that I couldn't explain about who I was, that I began to really see myself more clearly. I'm therefore in a very different position from the OP in that I actually feel very appreciative of the enneagram in this regard. I feel like it opened a door to me and I could step forward and finally find myself in a completely new and unexplored place within myself and while I initially saw a lot of bad stuff I didn't like, the more I just allowed myself to stand there and gaze over what I do have, I also realized that there can be good in there and it's not always just bad. That's why I really like this quote by Shakespeare: "There's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so." I think it holds a lot of truth to reality. We are neither good nor bad, intrinsically speaking, but we simply are. Judging ourselves in terms of good/bad categories is something we impose upon ourselves, not the world. Letting go of these categories will also liberate us into embracing self-acceptance, which is beneficial in allowing myself to grow as a person. When we let go of these constructs we realize how limiting they are. 

The initial pain does kind of suck though I think people's mileages may vary also, as not everyone's experiences are the same in this regard, but it's like what Maitri writes about holes. There's a sense of there being a hole within us where Being should have been but we think is not anymore. Diving into this hole can feel very painful and a lot of our defense mechanisms as pertaining to our enneagram, are supposed to help us deal with this sense of hole within ourselves, but the more we keep exploring the hole, the more we realize there is no hole there. It's a false perception. Over time, as we keep exploring, it just kind of shrivels up and goes away and so does the pain associated with it. I didn't quite understand what this meant when I read about the concept, but I think I understand it better now, as an actual experiential feeling. Of course, it comes and goes as no person stays at the top of their game all the time, but I think I'm getting better at not being so caught up in the pattern when I regress because I can now identify when I do and remind myself to try to not do it. 

So personally, I like the enneagram a lot this way, because to me the experience has only be thoroughly positive, once I finally figured this shit out, which took forever (I also really think my inability to identify my type is ironically symptomatic of my type, also, lol).


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Lunar Light said:


> I'm currently distancing myself from typology because the continual rehashing of an abstract theory that will vary from person to person has become both tired and tiring for me.


Welcome to the club . I'm going to be a hipster and say I was doing it before it was cool . It's been a long time since I frequented the enneagram forum, but it's interesting to see how some people, like @Animal stick around and maintain a consistent interest. As she said, the insights it gives into character outlooks, which is helpful to her professionally. 

Question: Will you continue posting in the enneagram forum if you are distancing yourself from typology?

It's interesting how that works... I tend to get bored of each nook and cranny of the forum at some point (partly why I decided, hm... let's try moderation), instead moving on to the next thing.

A year ago, I was unemployed and felt I was nothing. Now? I work about 50-60 hours a week, hold down 2.5 jobs, in addition to my volunteer gig moderating the forum. Fun times. I do so much now, I really don't "look" like a 4, nor do I feel the need to prove or disprove my 4 typing. Whatever. 

At some point, when you are staring down the abyss, it's like: Why? Why worry yourself, why self-defeat, etc.. Maybe it's an Se-thing, IDK. So... not to dispense typology completely, but I find Se parent complex (Beebe), which simply drinks in the present, and fuck the future unknowns, has been beneficial to me.

^I probably "look" more like a type 1 these days. And maybe I am, that would be cool.

*I will play devil's advocate for a moment, here*: (and a lot of this ties in with my tendency to be a nihilist; yes folks, you heard correct, hal0hal0 is a nihilist, although I say that half-jokingly. Half):

If all the world's a stage, is it so wrong to identify with the mask? A persona, or that external shell may be "outside the self" but does it not speak, on some level, to what's inside? The performing arts, while construably a mask or a "performance" is not, in my mind, totally fraudulent. I don't tend to believe in "proper" ways of doing typology, anymore. The path of self-deception is still a path, still an experience. Ultimately, in my mind, nothing matters. We will die, become dust, and that dust will be ground to atoms.

In other words, I don't believe in "correct" paths (within reason). Simply paths and stories to tell.

Enneagram, at its heart, describes a set of fixations, or as @mimesis has put it better than anyone else I know: *ego-distortions*. It is, in essence, an existential "rut" that we find ourselves spinning our wheels or clinging to a particular... self-deception. This is why I made a thread on here ages ago called "How do you deceive yourself?" Most of my threads on here, didn't really deal with individual types, but more, the general pattern of ego-distortion. Fears, habits, and cycles of self-defeat.

For me, I remember asking early on: Does type change? @Vajra (who might see this in a few months, if ever ) I think was the one I asked and it ultimately leads to this:

If Enneagram describes a rut we get stuck on, to me it would suggest *very* little faith in humanity to say that we are doomed to repeat the folly of our type again and again. Typically, if I encounter a roadblock while driving, jesus, I hope it doesn't take me years to get over it. Again, this is *why* I like to think of enneagram as a roadmap. It describes terrain, pitfalls, and danger zones that we may find ourselves trapped in. But, a roadmap does not dictate one's actual choices, merely possibilities and inclinations.

Moreover, paralleling what your OP is about: A roadmap is not the actual terrain; merely a simulacrum (albeit a fun one to think about and often insightful... a mirror is not you, but it may help you trim the nosehairs, no? :laughing.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Philathea said:


> I thought it was from being an image type that I have in the past over-identified with my type, but now I see many people have done that.
> 
> The worst part was, as a 4, becoming aware of my fixations and self-defeating patterns only led me to fixate on them more obsessively. And then, I _romanticized_ them. Oh yes. That dug a deeper hole than I was prepared for.


Wish I could romanticize type 4. Before I realized I was a 4, I had a very different idea of the type - I thought a particular 7 was a 4 and I romanticized that person,thus the type. Once I realized hes a 7 I couldn't romanticize his problems anymore because my father is also a 7 and I know those problems too well. As for 4, now that I understand that I'm a 4, and what it means.. it has lost its luster. I want to be a 3. And my desire to be a 3 has nothing to do with typology. I have wanted that sort of personality all my life, just, now I have a name to give it, which other enneagram enthusiasts can understand. Enneagram gives me a language for things I already knew. It also provides deeper insights, and if I were to be reasonable I'd say I shouldn't romanticize 3 or any type because they have problems too, but I'm not a reasonable person, and I won't use my type as an excuse.  I just think feelings are more important, they make me human. I don't feel I need an excuse to romanticize anything including my own problems. Enneagram says I would grow by NOT doing that, but I know I will only "grow" in an authentic, natural way. I might recognize when I have been healthier or unhealthier, and why certain things happened, which enneagram helps me better understand and recognize so I can avoid going too far (like with dis-2)... or at least, I can view it more objectively, and not feel so alone, so fucked up, so beyond repair, when I get like that. I can have a reasonable hope that it will go away. So enneagram helps in that sense. But no type description is going to strip me of my romanticism. I'd rather be dead.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

I don't think I'm cool or whatever because I'm a 9, I think I'm cool or whatever because I'm me 

My ego is big regardless of how I type, always has been.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Draconic said:


> I don't think I'm cool or whatever because I'm a 9, I think I'm cool or whatever because I'm me
> 
> My ego is big regardless of how I type, always has been.


Exactly. I don't need a system to tell me what my personality is and who I am. The system may help me make more sense of myself and others, but my lust isn't going to disappear because I no longer type at 8, nor is my feeling of being separate from the world and my hatred of being overwhelmed by others' demands going to disappear because I no longer put 5 in my tritype.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> Enneagram says I would grow by NOT doing that...


I don't know why people sometimes assume one goal of the Enneagram is to get rid of your type. Approaching it that way often creates a feeling of disgust toward oneself for being stuck in the negative aspects of type or a defensiveness against losing the positive aspects of type. It doesn't need to be a subtractive approach where you're trying to get rid of parts of yourself identified by type. It's more useful to take an additive approach where you're exploring parts of yourself that have been previously unrecognized or ignored or denied (indicated by the other types). You don't lose what you have (your type). You simply add to it. In doing so, you're no longer as limited in how you approach life but have alternatives available that you can choose to use based on what you deem appropriate at the time.

I guess there's just a lack of material that describes this additive approach but an abundance of material implying the subtractive approach.


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## ReverieInSight (Sep 22, 2015)

This is so so true. Although I know I am ENFP, I often find myself saying things and doing things completely different to what the description of an ENFP would say about this. But that's completely normal! And I also fell into that trap of thinking that "others ENFP do this that way, maybe I should start doing this..." No. I have a reason for not doing this, because I, as my own human being, just don't like doing/being/saying that. At the end of the day, the type-descriptions are generalized statements of a group and just aren't applicable to every individual in this certain group.

I really see a lot of stereotyping on here and it angers me a lot. Just because you are so and so type, people assume you can't do so and so. It's ridiculous, and hinders someone from seeing the real person behind the type. The types weren't invented to help us embrace a collective, sterotyped sheep manner. Actually it should help us embrace our real selves, but this implies all our not-so-typical-traits-of-our-type as well.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> I don't know why people sometimes assume one goal of the Enneagram is to get rid of your type. Approaching it that way often creates a feeling of disgust toward oneself for being stuck in the negative aspects of type or a defensiveness against losing the positive aspects of type. It doesn't need to be a subtractive approach where you're trying to get rid of parts of yourself identified by type. It's more useful to take an additive approach where you're exploring parts of yourself that have been previously unrecognized or ignored or denied (indicated by the other types). You don't lose what you have (your type). You simply add to it. In doing so, you're no longer as limited in how you approach life but have alternatives available that you can choose to use based on what you deem appropriate at the time.
> 
> I guess there's just a lack of material that describes this additive approach but an abundance of material implying the subtractive approach.


Exactly. I couldn't agree more. I take what makes sense and discard what doesn't, and the subtractive approach makes no sense to me. I am the way I am because it works for me all this time. If I can understand it more and add to it, great.. but I'm not going to be erasing my "Self" or "ego" any time soon.


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## perennialurker (Oct 1, 2009)

All models are, necessarily, simplifications of reality.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> You don't lose what you have (your type). You simply add to it. In doing so, you're no longer as limited in how you approach life but have alternatives available that you can choose to use based on what you deem appropriate at the time.


Simply? Like how would you *add* to type 5s withdrawal and observing from a distance, without losing that aspect? Simply draw out a plan of how to participate, add all those positive aspects of other types, without participating?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> ...but I'm not going to be erasing my "Self" or "ego" any time soon.


The biggest problem I find with the Enneagram is that it's really become stuck in the early stages of it's evolution but so many people assume it's complete. It's not the fault of the person learning the Enneagram. It's the fault of those "selling" the Enneagram as a finished product and they do that because that's their business (after all, how many people would buy what they're selling if they thought of it as a work in progress or an unfinished product?).

Types 1, 4, and 7 cultivate the self through their centers (e.g., type 4 cultivates the self through the feeling center). That understanding is simply not part of the current Enneagram product. It's something I had to discover for myself by spending many years evolving my understanding beyond the popularized understanding.

To tell people operating from type 4 to get rid of the self is basically telling that person to get rid of the type 4 aspect within themselves. Someone who experiences type 4 as being dominant is completely justified in rejecting this. The more useful approach for type 4 is to see the self cultivated through the feeling center as only part of the larger self and cultivate a more complete self through all three centers instead of just one (easier said than done of course).


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Simply? Like how would you *add* to type 5s withdrawal and observing from a distance, without losing that aspect? Simply draw out a plan of how to participate, add all those positive aspects of other types, without participating?


You can't do it simply by looking at behaviors or personality. You have to find what's happening underneath that (something I've been calling type of attention). The simplest way to begin exploring this is to learn how to access and use all three centers.

For example, types 5, 8, and 2 primarily focus on managing the world around them using different centers. The easiest way to understand this is that there appears to be a deficiency or lack of that center as it operates in the world around the individual. These types tend to step in and fill that deficiency and in the process take on the role for facilitating that center in the world around them.

Type 5 manages the world through the thinking center, often stepping into a role like expert.
Type 8 manages the world through the doing center, often stepping into a role like leader or protector.
Type 2 manages the world through the feeling center, often stepping into a role like helper or supporter.

Type 5 can begin to explore types 8 and 2 by exploring the other centers by shifting attention from the thinking center to the doing and feeling centers. This doesn't require any shift in personality at first. It starts off simply as a shift in awareness or attention. Here are the labels I use to help identify each type of attention.

Type 5 - comprehension through mental observation
Type 8 - empowerment through behavioral assertiveness
Type 2 - appreciation through emotional attentiveness

There's much more to this in a book I've yet to finish writing. So what I've said above is just to give an idea of the approach I'm talking about.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> You can't do it simply by looking at behaviors or personality. You have to find what's happening underneath that (something I've been calling type of attention). The simplest way to begin exploring this is to learn how to access and use all three centers.
> 
> For example, types 5, 8, and 2 primarily focus on managing the world around them using different centers. The easiest way to understand this is that there appears to be a deficiency or lack of that center as it operates in the world around the individual. These types tend to step in and fill that deficiency and in the process take on the role for facilitating that center in the world around them.
> 
> ...


So how do those to *add up* to type 5s fixation (withdrawal, detachment).

Wouldn't it make more sense to argue that these aspects are the result of less fixation? (less obscuration, or less distortion) - [ETA or, the result being less fixation, less obscuration or less distortion]

Because why withdrawal to begin with? To observe? Perhaps to write a book before asserting oneself? Meaning, is this theoretical or experiential?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> So how do those to *add up* to type 5s fixation (withdrawal, detachment).
> 
> Wouldn't it make more sense to argue that these aspects are the result of less fixation? (obscuration, distortion).


Fixation to me just implies overuse of or almost exclusive reliance upon one type of attention/response or approach to dealing with life. Seen in that way, developing other types within oneself simply means developing other ways of paying attention/responding to life besides the usual unconscious habit developed and relied upon from an early age.



mimesis said:


> Because why withdrawal to begin with? To observe? Perhaps to write a book before asserting oneself? Meaning, is this theoretical or experiential?


Experiential. Finding the actual experience of each type within oneself and in relation to others. Not simply a theoretical or conceptual observation of behavior, personality, etc. from the outside that may or may not represent what an individual is actually experiencing within. It's finding what's going on underneath personality. Personality only represents what makes it to the surface from those underlying processes and dynamics.


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## Du Toit (Mar 2, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> It's ironic that many people become trapped further by the Enneagram types in the way described by the OP because the original intent was to help get out of that trap of a limiting sense of self. There's a simple understanding to it all that I've been promoting that I think helps.
> 
> The Enneagram types represent nine aspects of being human
> "Your type" represents your habit of being
> ...


This is a really valuable post. Thank you for that.


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## Lunar Light (Jun 6, 2013)

Verglas said:


> Yea, I agree. I am aware. I was just just bringing possibly manifestations as you put it and wasn't directing my post at you specifically. I didn't necessarily suspect you would relate to my points.
> 
> I also do definitely agree none of your points are ''newbie-only'' and I am prone to fall into it myself for example because it can be so subtle as you say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're touching here is a form of ''hyper-awareness'', amplified by typology, that becomes overwhelming?


Ah, gotcha. And yeah, hyper-awareness is definitely part of the problem :/.




hal0hal0 said:


> Welcome to the club . I'm going to be a hipster and say I was doing it before it was cool . It's been a long time since I frequented the enneagram forum, but it's interesting to see how some people, like @_Animal_ stick around and maintain a consistent interest. As she said, the insights it gives into character outlooks, which is helpful to her professionally.


Hopefully this doesn't come off as abrasive but I don't think I could be part of the club. I have no idea how to explain that, other than perhaps to say that I think I'm on a different page than others who are disillusioned with typology.



> Question: Will you continue posting in the enneagram forum if you are distancing yourself from typology?


Vent threads possibly. As I said, I'd mainly want to avoid abstract debate on what type X is or isn't, out of intellectual exhaustion. Emotionally, I'm distancing because I no longer want to use ennea as a tool to discover truths about myself. Casual/applied discussion is all right, but that would likely occur off the forums. 



> A year ago, I was unemployed and felt I was nothing. Now? I work about 50-60 hours a week, hold down 2.5 jobs, in addition to my volunteer gig moderating the forum. Fun times. I do so much now, I really don't "look" like a 4, nor do I feel the need to prove or disprove my 4 typing. Whatever.


Heh. For me, I'd possibly say I'm more dissimilar from the image of ENFPs. I'm not flighty, I'm not always so easy-going. I was a rigid bitch for most of my life and overly perfectionistic. Hell, I'm still something of an uptight bitch. Too angry and upset.

Naturally, I find JCF to be less potentially destructive because it doesn't touch on weaknesses so much. I appreciate the patterns I've noticed and the clarity it gave me on some of my struggles / clashes with different worldviews. I had some major problems with Je, especially Fe in the past. JCF and this community has given me the environment of people and discussion that has helped me get over my shit, so I'm certainly not entirely bitter. 

If we're going to talk about hipsters and cool kids, then I'll be here to say that I prefer JCF at this point. It seems so many like ennea more because of its potential for "DEEP DISCUSSION" and like, wow, self-growth man. I know there are many who look at the 16 types with lofty disdain. I admit I'm not a fan of MBTI (massive understatement), but JCF is pretty all right. 



> If all the world's a stage, is it so wrong to identify with the mask? A persona, or that external shell may be "outside the self" but does it not speak, on some level, to what's inside? The performing arts, while construably a mask or a "performance" is not, in my mind, totally fraudulent. I don't tend to believe in "proper" ways of doing typology, anymore. The path of self-deception is still a path, still an experience. Ultimately, in my mind, nothing matters. We will die, become dust, and that dust will be ground to atoms.
> 
> In other words, I don't believe in "correct" paths (within reason). Simply paths and stories to tell.


Interesting thoughts. I don't have much to say, much less anything composed and elegant. I would say however that most of us already have a mask/persona. I don't want typology to add an extra layer. I don't want to be distracted by the lens and consideration of how my type plays into my ego-distortion. 

Sorry, I'm half just rambling about myself here, lol :|.



Animal said:


> Exactly. I don't need a system to tell me what my personality is and who I am. The system may help me make more sense of myself and others, but my lust isn't going to disappear because I no longer type at 8, nor is my feeling of being separate from the world and my hatred of being overwhelmed by others' demands going to disappear because I no longer put 5 in my tritype.


I want to intervene here and point out this is the impression I wanted to avoid giving off when I made this thread. I don't want to diminish people who may struggle with this, as it does fit under what I described, but this is not the main point.

Who, in their right mind, needs a system to tell them their personality and how to act? I mean, I feel really harsh here, but putting it like that could honestly potentially be insulting, because the unspoken other half of "I don't need a system to tell me what my personality is and who I am" is that others might. And putting it in those terms makes the negative influence typology may have on others sound more conscious, when it isn't or at least isn't necessarily.

I'm replying to you and not Draconic because your post felt more serious, though admittedly both posts feel like a (probably unintentional) caricature of what I hoped to express in this thread.


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

Lunar Light said:


> People become a collection of letters and numbers, instead of just people.


*shrug* I agree with the overall sentiment of your post but the selected quote doesn't seem to indicate anything bad to me, insomuch that the symbols express something much more than a number. They denote a cluster of traits and a segment of a personality that people identify with. It really is, if you like, 'a function of Fi' [something you presumably identify with as somebody who selected ENFP as their Jungian type] to hold contention with the view that we'd dehumanise the analysis. It doesn't make anybody less human (whatever that means) by virtue of having a generally accepted notation for definitions. What I think is more important in using these descriptors is that we make sure not to completely confine ourselves within them, bound by what somebody else decided a facet of a personality looks like, just like you mentioned in your original post.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Lunar Light said:


> I want to intervene here and point out this is the impression I wanted to avoid giving off when I made this thread. I don't want to diminish people who may struggle with this, as it does fit under what I described, but this is not the main point.
> 
> Who, in their right mind, needs a system to tell them their personality and how to act? I mean, I feel really harsh here, but putting it like that could honestly potentially be insulting, because the unspoken other half of "I don't need a system to tell me what my personality is and who I am" is that others might. And putting it in those terms makes the negative influence typology may have on others sound more conscious, when it isn't or at least isn't necessarily.
> 
> I'm replying to you and not Draconic because your post felt more serious, though admittedly both posts feel like a (probably unintentional) caricature of what I hoped to express in this thread.


When I express my own reaction, I can't always think about any possible implication it may have in the eyes of others, or how others may read things into my intentions that werent there. I say what I feel. My intent was (obviously, I hope) not to insult anyone but to respond to a specific sentiment. I was not in any way suggesting that you needed a system to tell you who you are, or to diminish your real problems with enneagram by suggesting that another problem did not exist for me. The thread was about losing yourself with enneagram or typology, so I thought the commentary was in line with the subject matter, since some other people were saying things like "you don't need a system to tell you who you are" - and I was agreeing with that. My first, long post, mentioned that these problems can happen to anyone and that learning to use enneagram in a helpful (and not harmful) way is an art in itself. So clearly I did acknowledge that there are reasons for the very real problems that people do have, and that I have had problems with it too.. or else I wouldn't have written my first post.


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## Despotic Nepotist (Mar 1, 2014)

@Lunar Light If I'm to be shamefully and painfully honest, this is a reminder I could actually use sometimes. Discovering typology gave my identity and thoughts a name, which is why I became so engrossed in it, but yes, I should remember to look at myself and others as humans and not just interesting automatons for the purpose of cognitive dissection. Thanks for the gentle reminder. :lemo:


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Thanks for making this thread, because I too get annoyed by stereotypes and supposed limitations on who _I_ am (I'm Ne-dom, so apparently I'll never amount to anything or complete everything, ever. I'm an 8 so I'm the leader and you should fear me). 

What's silly especially is how people can get locked into ideas about how you're "supposed" to behave as type X--I too confess to having been guilty of that in different ways. The things users say matter to other users, and that's a reality. People see you as your type first, and that's a reality too.

But this discussion is also painful at some level, because I've carried on conversations with those who think I take the enneagram _much_ too seriously. I've been accused of using it to "make excuses" for how I am. And then I have to feel like the shitty jerkoff nerd whenever I try to explain myself. So, sorry if I'm going off topic or ranting, but FEELS.

Bottom line is, enneagram doesn't tell you who you are. But in my opinion, it does a pretty good job in explaining _how people work._

What's wrong with saying, "Hey, my sense of justice stems from being an 8, and I don't want to change it because I see nothing wrong with it"? What's wrong with saying, "Here's my insight into how I work, I hope we can under"? What's wrong with uncovering the psychological background to your own mind and admitting frankly that you really are participating in life with that bias, which will always be there? I've realized that the enneagram _does_ explain why my life has gone as it has, and would take lifelong work to alter certain mentalities, which I'm not even sure I want to do (in some cases), because it would involve me compromising my values. As many professionals attest, enneagram work is a lifelong struggle.

But then, I'm making excuses (according to _those_ people, not indicting the OP here) for not changing according to someone else's ideal, which reveals a bias of its own. And...sigh. Where do we draw the line between understanding ourselves then conveying it to others...and "making excuses"? I don't have the answer.

Normally, I'm the one pointing out how much people actually have in common and how our type doesn't define us, so I feel annoyed I'm even in this position. I guess I want to say, I think type _does_ matter to those who use the systems, but it's not the *only* thing that matters. I'm an ENTP, and I can make a decision and bring things to fruition when I want to. I'm an 8, and I'm capable of being polite and can work on the ways I force things, annoy others, and alienate myself. On the other hand, I'm always going to struggle with the paperwork because I don't care to apply myself, and I'm not compromising my sense of justice, period. None of this, of course, says anything about my childhood, my family, my interests, my political affiliations, my religion, by artistic abilities, my career choices, my goals in life, who my friends are, my sex life, the joy I take in my hobbies, and anything else that are also important to "who I am".

So take that as you will, not everything is a label--sometimes it's an actual pattern or issue. And, it's not everything about you as an individual.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> Fixation to me just implies overuse of or almost exclusive reliance upon one type of attention/response or approach to dealing with life. Seen in that way, developing other types within oneself simply means developing other ways of paying attention/responding to life besides the usual unconscious habit developed and relied upon from an early age.
> 
> Experiential. Finding the actual experience of each type within oneself and in relation to others. Not simply a theoretical or conceptual observation of behavior, personality, etc. from the outside that may or may not represent what an individual is actually experiencing within. It's finding what's going on underneath personality. Personality only represents what makes it to the surface from those underlying processes and dynamics.


Then why repeating a theory when real life experience of participation can illustrate your personal experiential knowledge? 

Again how does withdrawal and "empowerment through behavioral assertiveness (8)" *add up*, or how does "appreciation through emotional attentiveness(2)" add up to detachment and the defense mechanism of (emotional) "isolation"?

I'd like to addresss that the label you assigned to type 5 (comprehension through mental observation), happens to be what Ichazo describes as the type's Trap: "Type 5 observes the world by pulling back from it in order to gain a more objective understanding of it." "The trap of observation requires a detachment from or non-involvement with the world in order to objectively understand it. Holy Omniscience is knowledge of the world through participation and experience in it instead of watching from the sidelines in the hope of understanding it before jumping in."

Hence my question whether it is experiential or theoretical because if you like I can show you several posts where you seem to confuse observing 'experience' of others with (personal) "direct experience". 

Of course, I would agree there are all kind of latent essential qualities within every person, but the point is that each type has a way of obscuring those qualities or aspects or cause alienation from those aspects. For instance, theoretically you could argue you "simply" need to find center (1) in order to enable equanimity (4), but that's not so easy when the passion of Envy throws everything out of wack. Counter-envy can be seen as a way to try and emulate equanimity, "simply" by invalidation of the object of gratification, and make oneself believe one doesn't want it anyway. (the sour grapes). It's a false sense of equanimity, by denial, that moves away from center, or 'presence'. Transformation and integration in this case requires an approach to investigate the root of envy, not the object of Envy. Respectively, investigate the root cause for withdrawal (detachment, isolation) not so much the object of withdrawal (or observation).


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Do people actually find themselves changing their behavior to better match the description of their personality type? That makes no sense, because your personality type is supposed to be representative of _who you are naturally, with no change_. If you are that type, you're already acting out a plausible version of that type simply by acting however you would authentically. You don't have to _try_ to be your type.... You already _are_. Even if you're not a typical type X, that just proves that there's diversity in the system, and you should enjoy showing that. 
I think that's actually kind of the magic of typology is that it takes our authentic selves (in all their variability, diversity, strangeness, complexity, etc) and puts them into categories. You dont have to change a thing about yourself (unless its natural growth). Fit your type perfectly, or fit it barely at all, either way, you are that type, and I think that's beautiful. It shows there's some order to the madness of human behavior... and it gives you a map for understanding yourself, and it reminds you that you're part of humanity.. .not just a lone soul. In no way should typology ever _limit_ who you are... personally I've never encountered a reason to feel limited by it. Remember, your authentic self is _always _the last and final authority on who you are. And typology should be modeled after who people really are.  So changing yourself to better fit a type is just plain backward. 

Unless you're trying to be a _different_ type, or you just want to be a different person.... In which case... well, that makes sense. If you have another kind of person who you really want to be, maybe that's okay? to try to be that person even if it means changing your personality? I mean, I do. It doesn't have to do with typology, but I try to be the person I want to be (superficially at least) and I get annoyed when I accidentally act in ways that are not in line with that. Maybe its worth it to train myself to act a certain way if thats what I really want to be... because then I'll have more self-confidence. 
But I'm sure its also worth it to focus on appreciating who I really am, naturally.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Then why repeating a theory when real life experience of participation can illustrate your personal experiential knowledge?
> 
> Again how does withdrawal and "empowerment through behavioral assertiveness (8)" *add up*, or how does "appreciation through emotional attentiveness(2)" add up to detachment and the defense mechanism of (emotional) "isolation"?
> 
> ...


You and I see Enneagram type differently. I simply see it as representing nine different types of attention that we all have access to and only comes out through personality when we respond from that particular type of attention. What most people would describe as "their Enneagram type" I see as the type of attention that they habitually respond from. Everyone has the other types of attention available but they tend to get overridden by a person's dominant type. To get to the other types of attention requires that the dominant type be softened in it's tendency to control things and the other types of attention be recognized and developed within oneself.

The difficulty I have sharing this approach with others has primarily to do with people holding onto the traditional and popularized understanding of the types as representing personality. You won't get what I'm talking about until you go underneath personality. Only then will you be able to begin seeing the difference between Enneagram type of attention or awareness where a person is all nine types and Enneagram personality type which is where a person is habitually responding from one or more dominating types of attention.

You're asking me to equate my approach (which doesn't see type as personality) with the traditional and popular understanding of type as personality. This can be done by understanding and exploring the difference between type of attention and attentional response but it's taking me a whole book to explain that. Attempting to describe it here will only create more questions than it answers because a new foundation to understanding the types has to be introduced so people don't get tangled up by the traditional or popularized understanding of the types (as you're doing in your post that I'm replying to).


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

charlie.elliot said:


> Do people actually find themselves changing their behavior to better match the description of their personality type? That makes no sense, because your personality type is supposed to be representative of _who you are naturally, with no change_.


IME, I don't think it's that people change their behavior to better match type but it does seem they often look for things about themselves that type describes. The two problems I see right away with this is that a person may be looking for things that aren't actually there (whether the type description they're using is not accurate or they've mistyped themselves) or it locks and narrows their focus upon certain aspects of themselves that they may have trouble resolving or become obsessed about.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Some people's behavior really do change to match their type, though I think the opposite can happen as well, someone trying hard to buck the stereotypes of their type (or not just stereotypes, necessarily, but I can't think of a better word at the moment). I can do the latter a bit myself, and isn't it logical? Enneagram isn't describing very flattering things of someone always, and if you're aware of your flaws, why not try to work against them? But then there's actually working on your flaws, and then there's trying to deny them. Or trying to avoid your type, but that's not quite what this topic is about... although I guess that's one way someone can lose themselves in the enneagram as well, because you're still letting your type influence yourself in a way.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Distortions said:


> ...though I think the opposite can happen as well, someone trying hard to buck the stereotypes of their type (or not just stereotypes, necessarily, but I can't think of a better word at the moment).


I'd call that the counter-type. Type 6 is often described that way in phobic vs. counter-phobic. I find that happens with other types as well.

I knew someone who was dominant type 5 that was counter-stingy in the effort he made to overdo the opposite of being stingy. I got the impression it was his attempt to compensate for that tendency to withhold or something that he became aware of earlier in his life (though he didn't know anything about the Enneagram but seems to have learned of that tendency elsewhere in his life).


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Draconic said:


> I don't think I'm cool or whatever because I'm a 9, I think I'm cool or whatever because I'm me
> 
> My ego is big regardless of how I type, always has been.


But would you say it's not at all affected by what you type as?

And of course, humor can be another defense mechanism. 



enneathusiast said:


> I'd call that the counter-type. Type 6 is often described that way in phobic vs. counter-phobic. I find that happens with other types as well.


Right. I wonder if being aware of enneagram can make that sort of thing worse as well, though.


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## Lunar Light (Jun 6, 2013)

Animal said:


> When I express my own reaction, I can't always think about any possible implication it may have in the eyes of others, or how others may read things into my intentions that werent there. I say what I feel. My intent was (obviously, I hope) not to insult anyone but to respond to a specific sentiment.


This works as a general rule, and I respect that. If you had talked about this anywhere else, I would have no reason to object to what you said. But in posting here, you are necessarily making implied judgments on what this issue is, at least when taking into account what you responded to.

It may seem like nit-picking, but I would disagree severely. I would have excused @_Draconic_ for minimizing what I was discussing because I think it's clear enough that what he said was meant to be "humorous" or something of that nature. It is minimizing, btw, because when you come into a thread and essentially say "I don't think I'm great because I'm a 9, I was great before I ever typed at that" (paraphrasing), this is indisputably a response and interpretation of the issue. And ostensibly, that response was grossly simplifying how typology can affect others (including himself).

This is something that can be forgotten. I may sound harsh but given the intent, it is whatever. However, you legitimize his response when you agree seriously. I should think it's fairly obvious that this would be the outcome, that when you say "Exactly" (and other supporting comments) to a statement that is taking a stance on the issue, you are reinforcing it. In this case, it actually makes this a genuine issue, as it didn't feel like Draconic was totally serious... something that I can't really understand, given how it was minimizing simply by virtue of how over-simplified it was.



> I was not in any way suggesting that you needed a system to tell you who you are, or to diminish your real problems with enneagram by suggesting that another problem did not exist for me.


I didn't take this personally, so this is not a problem.



> The thread was about losing yourself with enneagram or typology, so I thought the commentary was in line with the subject matter, since some other people were saying things like "you don't need a system to tell you who you are" - and I was agreeing with that.


If what others were saying is actually of the same nature of the comments you and Draconic made, then I apologize for singling you two out. However, I would argue that how your statements were constructed have different implications. There's a great difference between saying people don't need systems to tell them who they are, and saying that *you* don't on this topic, especially given what you responded to.

At this point, I feel like it's pointless trying to explain further. I mean, if you don't get it, you don't get it. But I am going to say that this is not as complex as I might be making it seem.



> My first, long post, mentioned that these problems can happen to anyone and that learning to use enneagram in a helpful (and not harmful) way is an art in itself. So clearly I did acknowledge that there are reasons for the very real problems that people do have, and that I have had problems with it too.. or else I wouldn't have written my first post.


Yes, and I would think you would have realized how your later response would seem to contradict that somewhat.

*EDIT: *I have to say that I don't mean to be frustratingly rigid, nor do I intend to police the thread. In a different context, I could appreciate your self-confidence @_Draconic_ . I just want this to be taken more seriously because it's so easy for something like this to come off as stupid - how could anyone let themselves be sucked into typology? 

I especially hoped you would understand the implications better @_Animal_ , because whether or not you got "lost" in typology, I know you have been emotionally invested in it as well. I don't mean to air anything here or be insensitive, but you've talked about the terrible backlash you'd gotten for typing at 8 in the past, amongst other things. So yeah, it does seem like enneagram, on this forum, can easily become "more" than just a system. 



Kipposhi said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi! Hoped I might see you post here, Mr. Typeless Wonder, hah. Figured you might understand this. Good points.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Lunar Light said:


> This works as a general rule, and I respect that. If you had talked about this anywhere else, I would have no reason to object to what you said. But in posting here, you are necessarily making implied judgments on what this issue is, at least when taking into account what you responded to.
> 
> It may seem like nit-picking, but I would disagree severely. I would have excused @_Draconic_ for minimizing what I was discussing because I think it's clear enough that what he said was meant to be "humorous" or something of that nature. It is minimizing, btw, because when you come into a thread and essentially say "I don't think I'm great because I'm a 9, I was great before I ever typed at that" (paraphrasing), this is indisputably a response and interpretation of the issue. And ostensibly, that response was grossly simplifying how typology can affect others (including himself).
> 
> ...


Alright.. I would agree that it might not be as complex in my mind as it is in yours. Which doesn't mean you're wrong and I'm right, but what I'm saying is, I think I'm missing something. Because I did not have any intent to undermine anyone with my post. If it had that effect, I apologize for clearly having overlooked something... but I can't apologize for the intent to undermine or devalue what you were saying, because it simply wasn't there. I thanked alot of your posts in this thread because I liked them and thought they were good points. I added my own take on it. I am not really understanding why you are upset by my post. But I apologize for being oblivious.. genuinely.. because this is over my head. I really wanted to show support in your thread, I'm sorry if I failed.

Edit 
(since you just added this part)



Lunar Light said:


> I especially hoped you would understand the implications better @_Animal_ , because whether or not you got "lost" in typology, I know you have been emotionally invested in it as well. I don't mean to air anything here or be insensitive, but you've talked about the terrible backlash you'd gotten for typing at 8 in the past, amongst other things. So yeah, it does seem like enneagram, on this forum, can easily become "more" than just a system.


I got backlash for typing at 8, but I have never complained about people disagreeing with my type or giving me shit for it. What I complained about was ONLY people using it as a pretext to insult me on a personal level. I have never complained about people disagreeing with my type. Typing at 8 did wonders for me, and I do have an 8 fix, and going into those issues in my past really helped me sort things out. Even if one day I decide I'm not 8 fixed (unlikely), I learned alot from it. The reason the backlash hurt is because friends turned on me for other reasons and used the 8 mistype as a pretext to air our personal problems which were unrelated to enneagram. This problem goes beyond a problem with enneagram. It was a personal issue between me and others; it was never about enneagram.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Lunar Light said:


> Hi! Hoped I might see you post here, Mr. Typeless Wonder, hah. Figured you might understand this. Good points.


I do what I can! 

And yeah, I didn't get into the more "forumy" aspect of it, but I've got plenty to say about that too. No doubt it will come round again, but for now let's say that people develop these notions based on descriptions...and then the types become mythology. Like Type 8 has reached such stratospheric Olympian heights that apparently we didn't even cry as babies. 

It was hard for me to publicly talk about my type at first because I don't think I remotely fit the mould that impressionable young minds expect. (I know because 10 years ago I was an impressionable young mind). Then I realized, that's exactly what I _ought_ to be doing.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Lunar Light said:


> TIt may seem like nit-picking, but I would disagree severely. I would have excused @_Draconic_ for minimizing what I was discussing because I think it's clear enough that what he said was meant to be "humorous" or something of that nature. It is minimizing, btw, because when you come into a thread and essentially say "I don't think I'm great because I'm a 9, I was great before I ever typed at that" (paraphrasing), this is indisputably a response and interpretation of the issue. And ostensibly, that response was grossly simplifying how typology can affect others (including himself).
> 
> This is something that can be forgotten. I may sound harsh but given the intent, it is whatever. However, you legitimize his response when you agree seriously. I should think it's fairly obvious that this would be the outcome, that when you say "Exactly" (and other supporting comments) to a statement that is taking a stance on the issue, you are reinforcing it. In this case, it actually makes this a genuine issue, as it didn't feel like Draconic was totally serious... something that I can't really understand, given how it was minimizing simply by virtue of how over-simplified it was.
> 
> ...


Oh, I meant every word. Dead serious. Regardless of how I typed in the past, or how I type in the present, I've always had a sizable ego. So I shared how typology affects me; it's a useful tool to develop oneself and in holding a mirror in front of us, sure, whatever, but regardless of any of this, my ego remains and I *will* find a reason for it, typing at 9 or not.
There is no 'minimizing' going on


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> You and I see Enneagram type differently. I simply see it as representing nine different types of attention that we all have access to and only comes out through personality when we respond from that particular type of attention. What most people would describe as "their Enneagram type" I see as the type of attention that they habitually respond from. Everyone has the other types of attention available but they tend to get overridden by a person's dominant type. To get to the other types of attention requires that the dominant type be softened in it's tendency to control things and the other types of attention be recognized and developed within oneself.
> 
> The difficulty I have sharing this approach with others has primarily to do with people holding onto the traditional and popularized understanding of the types as representing personality. You won't get what I'm talking about until you go underneath personality. Only then will you be able to begin seeing the difference between Enneagram type of attention or awareness where a person is all nine types and Enneagram personality type which is where a person is habitually responding from one or more dominating types of attention.
> 
> You're asking me to equate my approach (which doesn't see type as personality) with the traditional and popular understanding of type as personality. This can be done by understanding and exploring the difference between type of attention and attentional response but it's taking me a whole book to explain that. Attempting to describe it here will only create more questions than it answers because a new foundation to understanding the types has to be introduced so people don't get tangled up by the traditional or popularized understanding of the types (as you're doing in your post that I'm replying to).



Ah, so now it's 'softening' the dominant type. It's a start, I guess. 


You know, it's called the Wisdom of the Enneagram and what you propose strikes me closer to logical deduction, conceptualization from the drawing board. 5 may be a 'head type' but withdrawal from participation (resignation) is as much 'action center' as behavioral assertiveness is (your label of type 8 'attention'). They are strategically and behaviorally opposite, like Karen Horney's *moving* away vs *moving* against. But I'm still interested in hearing about your personal experience because wisdom is based on direct experience, and in that sense, I look at your view on life, worldview, self-concept, on interpersonal relationships, emotional regulation, etc. not just your view on enneagram. 


I would agree we have a different view on personality and enneagram, but I can tell you what I know is based on my insights as part of a process of self-transformation, healing trauma, self-realization and liberation from ego-fixation and what have you. I didn't know about enneagram, but I think I did well without. My fascination with enneagram is how it fits so well in retrospect, with what for me for a long time was just insight in my own personal chain of cause and effect that shaped the person I was. No labels, no ego identification or personal narrative or conceptualization. For me it was a journey of letting go, but I wouldn't say 'just letting go' is 'simple', because you need to confront your deepest fears, where enneagram is basically fear conditioned behavior and ego attachment (fixation, passion). 


However, difficult as it may have been, I don't think my insights are exceptional or unique. I'm only human. I'm not from a different planet. I can 'simply' google a few keywords to find some website that reflects my views or findings or if you will, wisdom. It's almost a caricature how you try to position yourself in the ennea-discourse, as if you have cracked the secret code of the enneagram, or solved some mathematical question, or need to protect the ignorant from the malicious enneagram authority boogeymen that are only out to grab our wallets. 

* *





Investigating “unknown territory”—knowing something that others do not know, or creating something that no one has ever experienced—allows Fives to have a niche for themselves that no one else occupies. They believe that developing this niche is the best way that they can attain independence and confidence. 
Knowledge, understanding, and insight are thus highly valued by Fives, because their identity is built around “having ideas” and being someone who has something unusual and insightful to say. 
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-5/#sthash.tOwECoyZ.dpuf







enneathusiast said:


> Types 1, 4, and 7 cultivate the self through their centers (e.g., type 4 cultivates the self through the feeling center). That understanding is simply not part of the current Enneagram product. It's something I had to discover for myself by spending many years evolving my understanding beyond the popularized understanding.


Many years? I can give you more quotes from Naranjo or Maitri if you like, but I figured Ichazo will do fine. (also in the spoiler refers to how 5s identify with their ideas or intellectual significance, so I guess it was a discovery by yourself, but really I wonder where you have been looking. Obviously not on the RH website)



Ichazo said:


> Type 4 [Trap] authenticity is derived from being true to an inner emotional reality that distinguishes oneself from others.


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## Mzku (Nov 4, 2015)

i like this thread. even thought it almost completely doesnt apply to me. MBTI has, for the most part, helped me have a better understanding of what already known, what ive struggled with, am struggling with, recognized, been told, or altogether been clueless of most of my whole life thus far. 

i think age range plays a factor in the OPs post because some ppl are here earlier than need be? life itself and your experiences and how you view and respond to it is your guide. i think these typologies assist in giving you details, nothing more. i dont think any of them were written expressly to GIVE you direction. (well the whole mbti carreer thing kinda does exactly that) it just gives you ideas based on some forms of experimentation study and others experiences. but nothing is making or insinuating that you shouldnt have those experiences on your own.

really, in my opinion, (no offense to anybody) i think anybody who hasnt finished college yet just barely makes a rational 'cut' of who should be dabbling with these. yea it can definitely confuse those who are still trying to discover or even define who they are, themselves. had i known i was INTJ and what that meant at any age earlier than i did, i probably would have been content to lock myself into solitude shun the rest of the world and only seek opinions of people im told im a good pairing with (not even a slight exaggeration. ive been gullible as shit before) and probably would've fell into a steep depression if things didnt turn out exactly right.

you be you, whoever that may be. and if you want to at a later time, do what i did. i found my type bout...eh. hm i forget now gonna guess 3 or 4 years ago? took the test again about 2, and filled it out a 3rd time just the other day. while each time i came up as an INTJ i took specific note that after taking the same test 3 times the values differed quite a bit. that alone tells me that we are the major determining factor in finding out who we are and most importantly who we want to be. these systems are only there to offer a little extra insight.

at an age where its literally already most probable a person can lose themselves in their circumstances hobbies and surroundings, things like this should definitely be left for later.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

@_mimesis_

I continually feel like you're challenging what I'm saying or explaining my 5-ness to me. I'm not here to prove anything to anybody. I'm simply trying to share what I've found with those that might be interested. I see where people are running into difficulties in their approach to how they're using or understanding the Enneagram types and I'm trying to offer an alternative for them or something more to the point. If they find it useful and want to discuss it further then I will. If they don't then I leave it alone.

I thought you were sincere in wanting to know more about my approach to using the Enneagram but it seems, as so often happens with you, it comes back to some other agenda or motivation that you have. Perhaps instead of trying to pick me apart you could present your own approach to the Enneagram. 

If we could, I'd like to just leave it at this: I went beyond the Enneagram types many years ago to develop something more useful and accurate for myself. I found it by exploring what the types and all the concepts were really pointing to (I couldn't find it in the Enneagram books or the popularized teachings). It's not just theory. It's experiential. I see the difficulties people run into with the Enneagram personality types and all the concepts that go with them. Those are the same difficulties I've run into. I found my way through them by finding the experiences they're actually pointing to. I feel compelled to help people by trying to offering something that to me is direct and simple. Unfortunately, that rarely works because people are tangled up with the popularized take on the Enneagram types and they try to compare what I'm saying with the concepts they've already learned. So, I've discovered that if I want people to understand my approach I have to present it in a way that's not going to contradict with what they already know about the Enneagram. I pulled the book I prepublished because of this. I thought it was an easy entry for people into what I was trying to share but it seems most people don't yet see the benefit of it vs. the popularized approach. I'm now working on a book that offers a hopefully unbiased introduction into the types and all the concepts and how to use them. If I can gather an audience through that then I'll write several other books that get deeper into the Enneagram, the types, the instincts, and ultimately beyond them. I'll have to see how it goes and whether I'll have the time and motivation (I don't make any money on the Enneagram, I have to find my income elsewhere).


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> @mimesis
> 
> 
> I continually feel like you're challenging what I'm saying or explaining my 5-ness to me. I'm not here to prove anything to anybody.
> ...



I have nothing against you personally. You don't seem like an evil or malicious person to me and I trust your sincere and positive intentions. But if I may be so free, you don't strike me as someone who has resolved basic trust issues. You've said it yourself a while ago, you don't trust the analysis of others. Now you say, when people disagree, they don't understand, assumingly because they are miseducated and 'tangled up' by the popular enneagram boogeymen. So you don't even seem to trust (the intellectual capacity of) the people you say you want to help, or you debate with. Unless they agree, I guess. 


Also it appears your experience is not so 'direct', or with 'presence of mind', since we have discussed this several times before. I was the one who used the pizza analogy remember? You are repeating yourself while ducking questions about personal experience, or believing I am asking you to 'equate your approach with the popular views (whatever you mean with that, but okay apparently I'm on that side of the dichotomy -indicates black and white thinking: 'you're with me or with the boogeymen'). You say experiential, but you contunue talking about observations of others. And I was asking, because of previous statements you made, actually many, that to me reflect an undercurrent of distrust, disappointment, sometimes unhealed hurt. When you describe fixation 'simply' as overuse, I think 'how simple is it to determine it's overuse and when not?'. It's very likely that only few would view their distrust as 'exaggerated'. Like the joke, "I'm not paranoid, I just don't like being followed". It's going to be even more likely when someone has no faith in the analysis of others, and prefer to rely on their own findings.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

@_mimesis_

Thanks for the unsolicited psychological analysis. I'll give it all the consideration it deserves.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> @_mimesis_
> 
> Thanks for the unsolicited psychological analysis. I'll give it all the consideration it deserves.


Well, it would have been so much easier if you cared to explain, what adding empowerment through assertiveness and appreciation through attentiveness means IRL for a core 5? In the end it's about life, and being, not about being somebody, or something.

That was too much to ask for, I guess. Never mind, good luck with publishing your book.


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## Lunar Light (Jun 6, 2013)

It's been a while since I've checked PerC and the distance has helped me further process how enneagram ended up becoming a disservice to me.

I had a good conversation with my great friend @_Eclipsed_ recently and it's helped clear up my thoughts. I think something she said sums up one of the major flaws of enneagram, and that is that "it destroys your understanding of yourself and makes it external rather than internal."

It's how you "become" a type, because you end up looking at a type as yourself, when in reality it will never be you. This is huge, because it ties into the flaws. This external system is never going to help with problems specific to you, and even if it vaguely does, it's like taking a roundabout, indirect way to get to your destination. Why go through this vague lens to understand yourself, when you can just skip that and get to the heart of the problem directly? 

As a tool, I get that it can help people thinking about these ideas in the first place. I will not deny that, and I know the major reason I still think about enneagram is because of my deep struggles with type 2. The shame is so many layers deep and the dark manipulation and power dynamics I find myself engaging is horrible. It is so awful and I know that it would be something I normally deny or avoid thinking about because it is so ingrained into my psyche that I need to be good, need to be innocent, and I want to be seen that way too. The ugly side of type 2 does not fit into that at all. It's the thing I fear most. 

When I was reconsidering type 4 as a core type, I talked to @_Animal_ and @_Vajra_ about type 6 and type 2, and I know both Animal and I were considering type 2 for me because of my adverse reaction to it. But no, I really am type 6, and I think that in itself is significant. 

By that, I mean it's easy to waste time in enneagram. For me, I feel like it had me thinking in circles and over-emphasizing things that I just didn't need to think about, at least so often. That thing about taking the unnecessarily indirect route? It applies here as well. Staying active in the enneagram community made me constantly consider things through the lens of type 6, and also feel obligated to write my experience as that type and thoroughly dissect what I identified with and didn't. Even the things that don't apply to me, I spent time thinking about, and that just wasn't worth it for me. Even what I did relate to, like I said, I over-emphasized. It took away from my immediate issues and made them overly abstract. 

Thinking through that lens distracted from the issue and added an element of "fate" and "doom" as I've mentioned before. I know this is me, but it screwed with my head to feel like I was on an endless loop. "This is my type, this is my type's struggles, I am this type, I am going to struggle with this." It was self-fulfilling and self-perpetuating because of how it's set up.

Internal understanding means so much more to me, but I was sucked into the system and its community. Which hasn't been a totally bad experience, definitely not. But still, like Eclipsed, I spent so long learning and re-defining a lot of what I already knew. I found myself repeating myself often, always adding the tiniest nuance. *I ended up thinking of almost everything through enneagram and only recently have I been able to think about things just as THINGS again. 

*It has honestly been such a relief. 

I seriously wish everyone here luck on their journey toward self-understanding, but really, this is worth considering. Enneagram can be a good tool, but on a forum like this? It's so easy to over-identify. The understanding of oneself becoming external rather than internal thing is inherent to the system, any of these systems really. Even if you say you don't see yourself as a type and enneagram is just a tool (sorry @_Animal_), IMO at least, it's still going to happen on some level if you take enneagram seriously at all. 

But you know what? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's not the case, but, again, if you're taking enneagram seriously, you're going to take external descriptions seriously even if your identity is distinct. And I guess, my question is... is that really worth engaging?

*EDIT:* Eclipsed continues to be my soul sistah, as she wrote something on this subject today too, here.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Lunar Light
I am in full support of you thinking of enneagram however you want to think of it, discarding it at your leisure, finding it limiting and thus deciding not to take it seriously. But these problems do not apply to me. So when you say "even if you say it's a tool (sorry Animal)..." ... there's no need to be sorry. Just, remember that this post is about _you_ and the traps and problems you experience do not apply to everyone.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

@Lunar Light

I actually just made a post about this the other day.



> I sometimes wish I had never known about the enneagram.. because sometimes I wonder, how self-aware would I be if I had never found it? In some ways it has helped me, and in other ways it has definitely hindered me (which is my own fault, not the enneagrams). Every thing I think and feel is filtered and categorized "enneagram-ically". Other people's heads aren't so cluttered with type-related jargon. It's like they experience things more purely than I do. But over all I'm grateful for it, because I'd rather be painfully self-aware than unaware that tons of people process things the same way I do.


I agree the enneagram can be harmful (it certainly was for me, because I over-identified with my type and instead of changing my patterns, I over-analyzed them) but I still believe it can be used for greater self-awareness and insight into others. There is a balance that needs to be met.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Been there, still there, actually. Typology made me realize so many good and bad things about myself, and identify so many things as not part of my real personality, that I'm definitely feeling the loss. I find phrases like "you are you" kind of useless since I don't know what "me" is at core, or else I don't trust or like it.


You need to find your inner anime character 

Seriously, though, the problem is a feeling of needing to define yourself. If you need to put yourself into words first, you'll be forever lost in a quagmire.

Finding self-definition doesn't have to be any more complicated than thinking about where you stand on things, and finding things to do that bring a fundamental, basic sense of contentment - not a narcotizing, dulling one, not "champagne in your veins", but a simple sense that life is fine. Taking the time to do those contentment-bringing things, figuring out what you think and how you feel about certain things will end up defining yourself almost by accident, over time, and in a very different, more grounded sense than typology ever will. Typology is best as a language of description, not as a tool of definition.



enneathusiast said:


> I don't know why people sometimes assume one goal of the Enneagram is to get rid of your type. Approaching it that way often creates a feeling of disgust toward oneself for being stuck in the negative aspects of type or a defensiveness against losing the positive aspects of type. It doesn't need to be a subtractive approach where you're trying to get rid of parts of yourself identified by type. It's more useful to take an additive approach where you're exploring parts of yourself that have been previously unrecognized or ignored or denied (indicated by the other types). You don't lose what you have (your type). You simply add to it. In doing so, you're no longer as limited in how you approach life but have alternatives available that you can choose to use based on what you deem appropriate at the time.
> 
> I guess there's just a lack of material that describes this additive approach but an abundance of material implying the subtractive approach.


I don't know if simply adding is necessarily _the_ thing either - and doubt you really implied that. But a hell of a lot of good can come from just looking at what we do without thought or neurotically as if it was the only possible choice - much in the way of zen or buddhism, from what little I understand of either school of thought - so that you can decide to "not go there, for 'tis a silly place", or go if you decide it's worth your while.



Animal said:


> Exactly. I couldn't agree more. I take what makes sense and discard what doesn't, and the subtractive approach makes no sense to me. I am the way I am because it works for me all this time. If I can understand it more and add to it, great.. but I'm not going to be erasing my "Self" or "ego" any time soon.


I've always understood leaving the box in the light of what I said above - freeing yourself from the compulsive nature of your attitude-program, not so much getting rid of the behaviors and thinking habits themselves. Doing it when it's truly what you want, not because it's the only thing you know how to or the only thing you think will work - if you've even thought about those habits before in the first place.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Lunar Light said:


> It's been a while since I've checked PerC and the distance has helped me further process how enneagram ended up becoming a disservice to me.
> 
> I had a good conversation with my great friend @_Eclipsed_ recently and it's helped clear up my thoughts. I think something she said sums up one of the major flaws of enneagram, and that is that "it destroys your understanding of yourself and makes it external rather than internal."
> 
> ...



This is exactly the problem. Understanding the system is not understanding yourself. It is understanding the system. You make yourself fit it. Somebody famously said that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. Enneagram is a language. It is a framework that defines the world, every part of it. It is a very small world too. It is limiting.

The only way Enneagram could be true or healthy, is if everybody spoke it. But they don't speak it. Any language can be made "true" if enough people speak it. People on this forum "speak" Enneagram and type. The vast majority of the rest of the world does not. It would be like being in the Canadian military or something --again, language is the extent of the world -- a military world has a different language. It is only practical within that world. The rest of the world does not operate like the Canadian military, or any military. You can't take the framework and rules of the Canadian military and apply them to all peoples of the world. lol. It is just the Canadian military that uses those rules. One takes the frameworks from Enneagram and applies them to the rest of the world. That doesn't work. You are speaking in your own private language. 

So, Enneagram and type are true on this forum, as many people "speak" it. It is gibberish outside of it.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

I used to feel the same way, really. It was like I had my Enneagram glasses on and couldn't take them off. When I stopped frequenting the Enneagram forum, it really helped in distancing me from the theory. I slowly stopped thinking in terms of categories & types and started adding my own understanding and intuition into the mix. Being in grad school where I was introduced to other theories also helps tremendously.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Brains said:


> But a hell of a lot of good can come from just looking at what we do without thought or neurotically as if it was the only possible choice - much in the way of zen or buddhism, from what little I understand of either school of thought - so that you can decide to "not go there, for 'tis a silly place", or go if you decide it's worth your while.


I agree. It's called non-attachment in those schools. 

Regarding Enneagram type:
Attachment - clinging to type, confusing who am I with it.
Detachment -pushing against type in an attempt to deny that aspect of myself.
Non-attachment - stepping into type when appropriate and pulling back from type when it's causing problems. The difficulty with the pulling back is you need to have somewhere else to go - that's where developing the other types or approaches to life is useful.

Type represents a part of you that you can learn to use like a muscle. Sometimes that muscle is appropriate, sometimes not. Too many people identify themselves as an Enneagram type when it really represents how you limit yourself to a narrow experience of life and how you tend to overuse your habitual approach to life even when it causes problems because it's all you know or it's who you think you are.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> This is exactly the problem. Understanding the system is not understanding yourself. It is understanding the system. You make yourself fit it. Somebody famously said that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. Enneagram is a language. It is a framework that defines the world, every part of it. It is a very small world too. It is limiting.


I think you touched on one of the problems but didn't mention the solution.

Words, theories, mental abstractions and constructs point to an underlying reality like a map. The map's usefulness comes from discovering the reality that it points to. Once you become familiar with that reality you no longer need the map (at least for that part of it that points to what you found). You can go around forever discussing how the map matches or doesn't match reality or you can just use the map as a starting point to experience what it's pointing to. The Enneagram just provides clues to explore. If you keep staring at or monkeying with the map then you'll never get anywhere. You'll spend your time living in a map.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

enneathusiast said:


> I think you touched on one of the problems but didn't mention the solution.
> 
> Words, theories, mental abstractions and constructs point to an underlying reality like a map. The map's usefulness comes from discovering the reality that it points to. Once you become familiar with that reality you no longer need the map (at least for that part of it that points to what you found). You can go around forever discussing how the map matches or doesn't match reality or you can just use the map as a starting point to experience what it's pointing to. The Enneagram just provides clues to explore. If you keep staring at or monkeying with the map then you'll never get anywhere. You'll spend your time living in a map.


Why should one map fit all people? Peoples tend to have Gods that reflect themselves. Not everyone sees the same reflection. Whose reflection is this? 

Beliefs are thoughts at rest. Thoughts are like water, beliefs are like sponges that absorb and dry them up. Why should my thoughts rest in Enneagram? Who is anyone to tell me where my thoughts should rest?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Why should one map fit all people? Peoples tend to have Gods that reflect themselves. Not everyone sees the same reflection. Whose reflection is this?
> 
> Beliefs are thoughts at rest. Thoughts are like water, beliefs are like sponges that absorb and dry them up. Why should my thoughts rest in Enneagram? Who is anyone to tell me where my thoughts should rest?


Not sure if this is in reference to my post you quoted or separate ideas so I don't know how to respond (or even if one is expected).


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

enneathusiast said:


> Not sure if this is in reference to my post you quoted or separate ideas so I don't know how to respond (or even if one is expected).



lol. I am not sure either. 

Jung said that you can take away people's Gods only to give them others in return. You can't simply destroy a belief system and leave nothing in its place. Nature abhors a vacuum.

But how do I know what your God should be? It is like somebody who broke away from Scientology and asks what should replace it in their life. How would I know?


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

I find it a very efficient system to clarify the general motivations of persons surrounding me. Mbti is much worse at getting people sucked into patterns of dwelling over themselves unhealthily. 

either can be defeating depending on the user of either system.

enneagram is only useful if you know a thing or two about psychoanalysis, but otherwise, you're chasing a needle in a haystack. you might as well just let it go and get professional advice on it, from a psychdoc or therapist of some kind.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Jung said that you can take away people's Gods only to give them others in return. You can't simply destroy a belief system and leave nothing in its place. Nature abhors a vacuum.


Sounds like you see Enneagram type similar to a belief system or worldview (unless you're talking about the Enneagram system as a whole in terms of a belief system).


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Abusing a map doesn't make the map inaccurate. It's up to the user how to read it.

Just because many people use it as a support structure for their identity doesn't make the system in itself invalid.


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## Lunar Light (Jun 6, 2013)

Philathea said:


> @_Lunar Light_
> 
> I actually just made a post about this the other day.
> 
> ...


I meant to reply to this as soon as I saw it, but then time passed and I was just like "oh well..." More people are writing on here though so I thought I'd come back to it.

I genuinely appreciate what you've written here and I do think balance is possible, but I think that this balance can be difficult for people to reach, which is why I've chosen to largely leave enneagram behind me because I myself know those difficulties. I do think, looking back on what I've written, that I may too strongly urge people away from enneagram, but it really is easy to use it unproductively. 

I think more than anything people have to remember that enneagram is just one very small part of the whole in terms of self-discovery. Because people come to enneagram seeking answers, as if the system itself may better help them understand themselves, and it "can" but that thought already may be a mistake; the system is just a system. 

It's YOU who makes it worth it, YOU who prompts the questions and then the answers that may help, and so ultimately I do have to say that I believe one will gain most from finding those answers oneself (because of flaws I already mentioned with typology). The prompts can be helpful, but beyond that... Well, it's what I mean by re-hashing the enneagram over and over to extract meaning - IMO it becomes more than it needs to be, because I don't think the system truly holds many answers. It's you yourself.

But yeah, I appreciate the open-mindedness in spite of how you sympathize. I try my best, but it can be difficult given my experiences. 



FearAndTrembling said:


> This is exactly the problem. Understanding the system is not understanding yourself. It is understanding the system. You make yourself fit it. Somebody famously said that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. Enneagram is a language. It is a framework that defines the world, every part of it. It is a very small world too. It is limiting.


Right, I think that's a good way of putting it, though I'm not sure that enneagram would be more helpful if everyone spoke it.



kaleidoscope said:


> I used to feel the same way, really. It was like I had my Enneagram glasses on and couldn't take them off. When I stopped frequenting the Enneagram forum, it really helped in distancing me from the theory. I slowly stopped thinking in terms of categories & types and started adding my own understanding and intuition into the mix. Being in grad school where I was introduced to other theories also helps tremendously.


Oh yeah, I think adding your own understanding and intuition definitely helps. Treating typology like a hard science (which it really, really isn't...lmao) especially given that it's meant to apply to humans, who are so contradicting and individual, is IMO a mistake. People aren't so rigidly the same, so it's difficult to apply rigid principles to them. 

Personally, it helped me a lot with JCF. Like, I think I ended up interpreting it in a similar way to some who use socionics, but I found new patterns that aren't generally described or talked about and that have been much more helpful to me. More than simply Ne itself, I identify with Pe, the openness to new stimuli and the tendency to avoid/dislike rationalizing and processing that data. 

I mean, that was a lot of my whole life. I had no real understanding of self for a long time, and the way I approach the world still poses struggles for me today because most of the time, I'm just a physical body perceiving what happens in the world. It makes for poor self-awareness, until I'm able to process and identify how information actually relates to me. It's different for everyone, and I think I experienced it more severely than others who share my type, also because of the environment I grew up in... but yeah.

The relationships between the attitude (introverted vs extroverted) and type (judging vs perceiving) of different functions was interesting for me to consider and helped tremendously in understanding what those functions mean and are generally recognized for. Because I had like zero understanding of Ni/Si in people before, only that it was "different" from what I did. 



AverOblivious said:


> I find it a very efficient system to clarify the general motivations of persons surrounding me. Mbti is much worse at getting people sucked into patterns of dwelling over themselves unhealthily.
> 
> either can be defeating depending on the user of either system.
> 
> enneagram is only useful if you know a thing or two about psychoanalysis, but otherwise, you're chasing a needle in a haystack. you might as well just let it go and get professional advice on it, from a psychdoc or therapist of some kind.


I appreciate the comparison you made and I know you aren't saying this, but one of the things I hate most about the ennea community is how people treat enneagram like it's so superior to other forms of typology. I'm not a fan of MBTI myself, but engaging enneagram becomes like a statement/badge of maturity. I have seen firsthand how people bond over enneagram because it's attractive here; it's "deep" and explores the "dark" sides of oneself. Blah, which I didn't like, because that feels shallow.

I agree that it depends on the user, though I wouldn't say that you necessarily need to know too much about psychoanalysis. Some people have a better grasp for objectivity and applying data than others.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Brains said:


> You need to find your inner anime character
> 
> Seriously, though, the problem is a feeling of needing to define yourself. If you need to put yourself into words first, you'll be forever lost in a quagmire.
> 
> Finding self-definition doesn't have to be any more complicated than thinking about where you stand on things, and finding things to do that bring a fundamental, basic sense of contentment - not a narcotizing, dulling one, not "champagne in your veins", but a simple sense that life is fine. Taking the time to do those contentment-bringing things, figuring out what you think and how you feel about certain things will end up defining yourself almost by accident, over time, and in a very different, more grounded sense than typology ever will. Typology is best as a language of description, not as a tool of definition.


I'll keep this brief: all I've ever had for an identity is a (now dead) image and a handful of related labels. I know what to do to keep fitting in those labels (on the surface, at least, it's never gone deeper than that, upon reflection), but what actually makes me "content"? Hell if I know. I know what gives me pride or satisfaction, but I can never seem to be content. I know what I want to be, think I should be, and am starting to get a picture of what I am...and I don't like it. :/

And of course, defining oneself in the manner you describe is messy, to the say the least. Typology by contrast is a tidy little summary of a person, easy to evaluate and relate.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I'll keep this brief: all I've ever had for an identity is a (now dead) image and a handful of related labels. I know what to do to keep fitting in those labels (on the surface, at least, it's never gone deeper than that, upon reflection), but what actually makes me "content"? Hell if I know. I know what gives me pride or satisfaction, but I can never seem to be content. I know what I want to be, think I should be, and am starting to get a picture of what I am...and I don't like it. :/
> 
> And of course, defining oneself in the manner you describe is messy, to the say the least. Typology by contrast is a tidy little summary of a person, easy to evaluate and relate.


The first thing to change yourself is to accept yourself. That means that one has to come to terms with both the good _and_ the bad. Contentment is found when we find ourselves in a place of acceptance. When we refuse to accept, to set the standard different from what it really is, then no, we can never be content, because reality does not match or conform to our expectations.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I'll keep this brief: all I've ever had for an identity is a (now dead) image and a handful of related labels. I know what to do to keep fitting in those labels (on the surface, at least, it's never gone deeper than that, upon reflection), but what actually makes me "content"? Hell if I know. I know what gives me pride or satisfaction, but I can never seem to be content. I know what I want to be, think I should be, and am starting to get a picture of what I am...and I don't like it. :/


This is what I was talking about: You are trying to find a verbal definition for yourself - in a sense, that is what identity colloquially understood is.

If you do not know what makes you content, try things out. Happiness is found in the strangest places. The important thing is to do. There's a reason many spiritual traditions emphasize practice - we're strange creatures who tend to find a sense of meaning around activities. I've ended up deriving a lot of my fundamental sense of contentment from things I never would've imagined some years ago, because they're wrong on the level of thought, but turned out to be amazing in reality. (contentment doesn't have to mean find a place, stay in that spot, not at all. It can be a craft to practice or the like, things that improve yourself are often amazing for that.)



ScientiaOmisEst said:


> And of course, defining oneself in the manner you describe is messy, to the say the least. Typology by contrast is a tidy little summary of a person, easy to evaluate and relate.


I may have misspoken a bit - the point is perhaps better put as finding yourself, and not caring so much for the definition. The definition will follow in due time.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

FearAndTrembling said:


> This is exactly the problem. Understanding the system is not understanding yourself. It is understanding the system. You make yourself fit it. Somebody famously said that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. Enneagram is a language. It is a framework that defines the world, every part of it. It is a very small world too. It is limiting.


I completely agree with this. Enneagram is a language and outside of typology forums it does seem kinda useless. While I understand that some people do seem to get a lot out of it, I spend a lot of my time feeling like I'm just trying to squeeze myself into someone else's reality-tunnel....which really isn't helpful at all, lol.



kaleidoscope said:


> I used to feel the same way, really. It was like I had my Enneagram glasses on and couldn't take them off. When I stopped frequenting the Enneagram forum, it really helped in distancing me from the theory. I slowly stopped thinking in terms of categories & types and started adding my own understanding and intuition into the mix. Being in grad school where I was introduced to other theories also helps tremendously.


Distancing myself really helped me as well, and finding other ideas, concepts, and theories has opened my mind even more. It was at that point I realised how studying this stuff obsessively really wasn't helping but hindering my self-develpment process (not say that this is the case for everyone - just my experience!)



FearAndTrembling said:


> l
> Jung said that you can take away people's Gods only to give them others in return. You can't simply destroy a belief system and leave nothing in its place. Nature abhors a vacuum.


So true! I missed FAT and his random Jung and Bruce-Lee-isms. xD


@_Lunar Light_

Thanks for making this thread! I really relate to everything you have said, I've thought about and reflected on similar things throughout my own journey. 

The point you made here is really important, I couldn't agree more;



> I think more than anything people have to remember that enneagram is just one very small part of the whole in terms of self-discovery. Because people come to enneagram seeking answers, as if the system itself may better help them understand themselves, and it "can" but that thought already may be a mistake; the system is just a system.
> 
> It's YOU who makes it worth it, YOU who prompts the questions and then the answers that may help, and so ultimately I do have to say that I believe one will gain most from finding those answers oneself (because of flaws I already mentioned with typology). The prompts can be helpful, but beyond that... Well, it's what I mean by re-hashing the enneagram over and over to extract meaning - IMO it becomes more than it needs to be, because I don't think the system truly holds many answers. It's you yourself.


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