# Education should be optional and short



## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

I think education should be optional and shorter than its been. I think we should let children make thier own schedules and take classes based on subjects they want to learn. Like if someone says they want to learn Engineering put them in that for a few hours a day. Also we start schools at 5-7 in the morning. Why is school always so early? I do believe we should make everyone learn the basics, but beyond that I think it should be optional. I think the most essential things are taught in kinder garden to 3rd grade. Which is basic reading, writing, and algebra. After a point the years become repetition of the same subjects over and over you can almost predict what you are going to be doing. When you got to 9th grade everything you learn is basically the same as far as English is concerned, you might as just repeat your freshmen year 4 years in a row. I think most kids would rather be home doing something fun, not being stuck in school till 3 o clock.


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## Handsome Jack (May 31, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Yeah up to 4th grade because in all honesty the public sphere never transcends the 4th grade reading level.


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## Reluctanine (May 11, 2014)

@MisterPerfect

Those are very valid opinions. I agree with quite a few of them. However, I think most education systems are the way they are because of a lack of resources coupled with the way our economic system functions.

The reason most schools are 5-7 in the morning is because the usual work week is 9-5. Parents send their children off early in the morning either to the school bus or by car, and then they go off to work. Making the start time of schools later would create a even bigger traffic jam at peak hour, along with scheduling conflicts appearing.

I don't know about you, but the later years for English in my educational system teaches more critical reading of text outside of creative writing, with exposition on global topics that include science and technology, society, education, etc. So English essentially became a world education kind of class.

As for why children aren't allowed to make their own schedule, well, firstly, lack of resources. Even the most well-funded school in the world could always use more teachers. And the sad thing is that quality educators are hard to come by. I'm hoping this will be remedied by technology in future, but until we pay our teachers a lot better globally, this is unlikely to happen. 

Another important point is that it's always good to have a well-rounded education. If you want to be a creative individual, to think critically, to solve problems in an out-of-box way, you have to read and learn outside your speciality. If all the students who took Engineering, just took Engineering, there wouldn't be cross-fertilisation of ideas like more aesthetically-pleasing bridges, handicap-accessible architecture, how green technology can by applied to whole cities, etc.

Letting a child choose what they love to do is good, but encouraging a child to explore the world at large is even better, so that they learn what else they might enjoy. Some children also can't decide so early, so an exploratory phase is also important to let them discover what they really do like. We know what we like because we have been educated for a few years. Not so for many kids.

I think, from what I've read about a lot of schools, they're just glorified baby-sitting services. Parents work long hours so school are long hours or else the child will be unsupervised for too long at home. It's really sad, but until more resources are allocated to education and technology allows more freedom for both parents, students, and teachers, this is going to be the status quo.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

Reluctanine said:


> @MisterPerfect
> 
> Those are very valid opinions. I agree with quite a few of them. However, I think most education systems are the way they are because of a lack of resources coupled with the way our economic system functions.
> 
> ...


A large majority of kids cant read by graduation. Also when I said schedule I did not mean a student saying "I want to come in at 12" but have certain classes with certain teachers at certain hours. Such as "pick a math, a science, a English". They can say Creative Writing, Engineering, Chemistry and if they are not ready they can take prerequisites". You actually do this in middle school for seniors btw. This system would be simple, means teachers would be teaching less students at a time, and kids would actually be interested in school since they chose what classes they wanted to attend. 

If Jimmy says "I want to be a chemist" and you say "Great well sign you for Chemistry" they are going to be very happy. If Jerry says he wants to be an Engineer and you give him times for Engineering hes going to be happy he got to go. Depending on how far along a student already is, they might have to take more prerequisites to be ready, but since we waste 12 years anyways I dont see how that would be much of a problem. Half the kids cant even pass Math and English needed to graduate anyways. 

We can even keep the Current set up as well 
Elective 
PE 
Science 
Math 
English
History 

For the first 4 years we can have nothing but houses of English, Math and History to teach them the Basics. Than after that School will become Optional and they can pick whichever classes they want from those categories. Also if you have 8 years and can take multiple subjects at the same time, I dont understand why you think that is limiting. Most schools take 6-7 classes at a time.

So if for example someone wants to take Biology, Chemistry, Robotics, Creative writing, and Physics they can do that at the same time. How exactly is that not well rounded? We make students choose when they go to college anyways, At least if we give them the option to explore in HS they will be prepared to make that choice.


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## SoulScream (Sep 17, 2012)

MisterPerfect said:


> I think education should be optional and shorter than its been. I think we should let children make thier own schedules and take classes based on subjects they want to learn. Like if someone says they want to learn Engineering put them in that for a few hours a day. Also we start schools at 5-7 in the morning. Why is school always so early? I do believe we should make everyone learn the basics, but beyond that I think it should be optional. I think the most essential things are taught in kinder garden to 3rd grade. Which is basic reading, writing, and algebra. After a point the years become repetition of the same subjects over and over you can almost predict what you are going to be doing. When you got to 9th grade everything you learn is basically the same as far as English is concerned, you might as just repeat your freshmen year 4 years in a row. I think most kids would rather be home doing something fun, not being stuck in school till 3 o clock.


It is not about your basic reading skills (although those get better as well) - it is about developing your cognitive abilities. I do agree that the educational system should be reshaped, but what you propose will inevitably lead to an even greater rate of stupid people than what we observe right now.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

SoulScream said:


> It is not about your basic reading skills (although those get better as well) - it is about developing your cognitive abilities. I do agree that the educational system should be reshaped, but what you propose will inevitably lead to an even greater rate of stupid people than what we observe right now.


Yeah, you can learn English and Reading without being in school. I learned most of what I did on my own. Language is one of those things you pick up by dealing with other people. Its not as difficult as you are making it. Also you are going under the assumption schools point was to ever develop any kind of skill. Most of the skill or ability a child already has is destroyed in school. 

Are you creative? Thats bad 
Do you think outside the box? Thats bad 
Do you know how to write a paper- here make a spider web anyways

Than after destroying a child ability to learn and think we shove them in college, and like "Well guess what? That ability we destroyed we want you to use".


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

I don't really have a problem with the current system. Fact is, kids don't know what's good for them. They frequently don't even know what they want. If you'd asked me what I wanted to learn when I was twelve, I couldn't tell you what I would have picked. Would have wound up an English major probably. Or a starving artist. 

Montessori education, if I recall correctly, doesn't actually seem to be beneficial in the long run. It's not detrimental, either, but it's not producing students with better test scores or rates of graduation. Providing structure is not always a negative thing. It sounds lame, but hours of boring school also prepares kids for life in a way. A lot of them will end up pushing paper in a cubicle 8 hours a day. The type of freedom offered in a more loose academic environment won't be offered in most work environments. 

One you get to highschool you have more options anyway. By the time I was in grade twelve I had very few mandatory classes, and could more or less take what I wanted. I dropped gym first chance I could. Lol.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

BlackDog said:


> I don't really have a problem with the current system. Fact is, kids don't know what's good for them. They frequently don't even know what they want. If you'd asked me what I wanted to learn when I was twelve, I couldn't tell you what I would have picked. Would have wound up an English major probably. Or a starving artist.
> 
> Montessori education, if I recall correctly, doesn't actually seem to be beneficial in the long run. It's not detrimental, either, but it's not producing students with better test scores or rates of graduation. Providing structure is not always a negative thing. It sounds lame, but hours of boring school also prepares kids for life in a way. A lot of them will end up pushing paper in a cubicle 8 hours a day. The type of freedom offered in a more loose academic environment won't be offered in most work environments.
> 
> One you get to high school you have more options anyway. By the time I was in grade twelve I had very few mandatory classes, and could more or less take what I wanted. I dropped gym first chance I could. Lol.


So are you saying we should ban English majors in college too? Also a lot of kids have some obvious interests or things they want to learn. If you give them the Option when they are younger, they get to explore and figure out what they like. 

Do you want to build robots, Do you want to do Engineering, do you want to know how to fix a car? Also I honestly think HS Gym is pretty useless. We cant make students get a real work out since "My child cant participate" and I find it pretty meaningless if you are not going to work out a child to put them in gym class. Also I saying instead of classes we should have courses. For example it will take so many months to learn a subject and you can pick what of each subject you want to learn. 

Like 

Science/Chemistry, Biology, Pharmaceutical 
Math/Engineering, Auto mechanics, Physics, Geometry, Algebra
History/American History, European History, Religious history 
English/Creative writing/Literature/Journalism 
Elective/Ballroom dance/Cooking and house management/accounting and billing/Computer coding/Computer Office/Computer Programming/Computer visuals such as photoshop and Graphic design
Pe/MMA, Boxing, KickBoxing, General Sports, Track and Field


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

MisterPerfect said:


> So are you saying we should ban English majors in college too?


Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Also, art should be outlawed.


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## Another Lost Cause (Oct 6, 2015)

High School was a fucking joke. I would have been better off just enrolling in the community college and taking two years worth of courses on a semester basis, than having to spend a whole year on a single class. The teaching was awful and totalitarian also, no room for flexible thinking.


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## SoulScream (Sep 17, 2012)

MisterPerfect said:


> Yeah, you can learn English and Reading without being in school. I learned most of what I did on my own. Language is one of those things you pick up by dealing with other people. Its not as difficult as you are making it. Also you are going under the assumption schools point was to ever develop any kind of skill. Most of the skill or ability a child already has is destroyed in school.
> 
> Are you creative? Thats bad
> Do you think outside the box? Thats bad
> ...


I am not making it difficult - I am trying to be realistic about it. It is true that language is something that you pick up on from your social environment, but you forget that it depends on the environment how well you will pick it up. School expands on your vocabulary by providing you with various subjects that use different set of "typical" words. Don't be so cocky to think that you have learned everything on your own - the impact of your environment on you and your learning (especially for language) is something that you can't really deny, whether you like it or not. 

Another thing is that education does help your developing brain to foster and improve your cognition - basic algebra, reading and writing (as you mentioned - till 3rd grade) don't really help you to achieve formal operational thought, metamemory, (interdisciplinary) problem solving skills, learning strategies etc. It also does not really expand your knowledge base that you actually really need to be able to get good at whatever the fuck you want to get good at. 

Next point would be that the age that you propose for children to start picking their occupations is insane. People rarely form a solid identity and idea of their personality before late adolescence/early adulthood (and it is not set in stone at that point either) to be able to pick a vocation that will be suitable for them. They are also far away from having realistic ideas of their abilities and of professions in general (the younger kids are, the more likely it is for them to go for something just because it sounds cool or exciting to them). I will not even get to the point that if you leave them to choose a good portion of them will just sit at home watching TV instead of doing something productive (as you imply). 

What a child has is potential, no actual abilities (excluding special genius cases and the like) that really get killed. It is true that creativity declines in elementary school but that is not only because they are at school - it is because they have a better idea of how the world works, so their divergent thinking gets more focused - producing a smaller amount of ideas because the ones that can't work out (for various reasons) can be weeded out faster. 

I am not trying to defend the educational system as it is now - especially the one in USA which I haven't been through. What I am trying to point at is that in it's core it is supposed to be and is beneficial to children's cognitive development, despite the numerous negative points that one can list while criticizing it. 

Another thing I am pointing at is the fact that those things should be thought through really carefully, without taking a one-sided approach ("School is bad!"). The idea that you propose does not fit well with how people develop cognitively, and even excluding that is not really thought through all that well. The idea that you can jump from 3rd grade reading skills to choose something like robotics or engineering or whatever is just as open to criticism as what we are receiving today as education. Not to mention that providing yourself as an example is wrong - first because you are a single person and as such you don't have statistical relevance (maybe you are a genius, who the fuck knows), and second that a good portion of what you believe to have learned on your own is based on skills that were developed in school (a subject being different or harder does not mean it is based on different skillset). Also providing yourself as an example about your own native language is not particularly good idea. 

Anyway, you can get into developmental psychology (for starters), because I think it will help you develop healthier ideas about how the educational system should be changed (why it is not really done now is completely different topic).


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

Wow where I've been we start classes at 8h30, not 5h or 7h!

As for learnin basic read/write and algebra... I'm afraid that I think that we'd need more, like science for example. It's important for people to have basic scientific knowledge, like basic body anatomy. Some history, geography, grammar and other subjects helps develop intellect too.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

AriesLilith said:


> Wow where I've been we start classes at 8h30, not 5h or 7h!
> 
> As for learnin basic read/write and algebra... I'm afraid that I think that we'd need more, like science for example. It's important for people to have basic scientific knowledge, like basic body anatomy. Some history, geography, grammar and other subjects helps develop intellect too.


I never said we should not learn Basic Reading and Algebra. I was saying that is all we focus on till 4th grade, and than let people pick what they want to do. For example if you are going to be an accountant you dont need Abstract math. If you want to fix a car you need practical Math. 

Math Practical Engineering(How do the physics of a truck work? Can you repair an engine)/Theoretical Accounting(Can you add?) 

If for example a student wants to do all math class they can learn various types of math 

Engineering, Accounting, Electrician


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

I don't think it's a good idea to let kids pick what math they wanna do before highschool. And highschool is when schools start letting kids branch off anyway. What ten year old dreams of being an accountant? It's a fine job, but I'd be concerned for my child's sanity if he told me that he wanted to be a CPA. A good foundation of math, English, social studies, geography, science, etc is fine up until the last few years of school, in my opinion. Then you have a better idea of what your strengths and goals are and can start specializing.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

BlackDog said:


> I don't think it's a good idea to let kids pick what math they wanna do before highschool. And highschool is when schools start letting kids branch off anyway. What ten year old dreams of being an accountant? It's a fine job, but I'd be concerned for my child's sanity if he told me that he wanted to be a CPA. A good foundation of math, English, social studies, geography, science, etc is fine up until the last few years of school, in my opinion. Then you have a better idea of what your strengths and goals are and can start specializing.


I lot of kids actually know what they want to do as children, and you are saying since math was not attractive to you it would not be to other people either, which is not really true. Also HS is useless since you need a foundation, and I saying we make a foundation earlier rather than later and no you dont get to pick your classes in HS. You get to pick them in college, you are told what to take in HS. You need 2 language year to pass, you need four English and those are not something you can choose, you have history and you have advanced, Regular or remedial. If you get science you can choose between Biology or Chemistry after you take Earth Science(Which I actually loved this class), PE you usually get put in whatever matches your schedule


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

MisterPerfect said:


> I lot of kids actually know what they want to do as children, and you are saying since math was not attractive to you it would not be to other people either, which is not really true. Also HS is useless since you need a foundation, and I saying we make a foundation earlier rather than later and no you dont get to pick your classes in HS. You get to pick them in college, you are told what to take in HS. You need 2 language year to pass, you need four English and those are not something you can choose, you have history and you have advanced, Regular or remedial. If you get science you can choose between Biology or Chemistry after you take Earth Science(Which I actually loved this class), PE you usually get put in whatever matches your schedule


I loved math as a kid, but I never knew anybody who wanted to be an accountant. If someone had asked me whether I would rather learn how an engine works or how to calculate taxes I would have jumped at the mechanical choice. Which would have been foolish because I basically do accounting for work now. 

You have more freedom in high school, at least where I live. We had to take core classes, like English, math, and science. But we could decide which math we wanted to take, which science class we wanted, and we got at least two choices of elective per semester. I took art, and robotics, and art history, and psychology. This was mostly so that kids could start preparing for post secondary. I wanted to be a doctor so I took biological sciences and calculus. Some people took "practical" math and mechanics. Some people chose music, and got their credits from band and choir. This just seems really reasonable to me. Nine seems really young to start allowing that level of choice.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

BlackDog said:


> I loved math as a kid, but I never knew anybody who wanted to be an accountant. If someone had asked me whether I would rather learn how an engine works or how to calculate taxes I would have jumped at the mechanical choice. Which would have been foolish because I basically do accounting for work now.
> 
> You have more freedom in high school, at least where I live. We had to take core classes, like English, math, and science. But we could decide which math we wanted to take, which science class we wanted, and we got at least two choices of elective per semester. I took art, and robotics, and art history, and psychology. This was mostly so that kids could start preparing for post secondary. I wanted to be a doctor so I took biological sciences and calculus. Some people took "practical" math and mechanics. Some people chose music, and got their credits from band and choir.


Did you know any kids who sold candy as a kid? Since this thing is known to happen a lot. Accounting is just dealing with money, which means it the same as business, you have to learn the same stuff. You cant say "I didnt like it or no one I knew like it, since you are not the world of people". Some people might actually like doing math, and dealing with money. You dont really have freedom in HS, its kind of like the elections. They choose people you can pick from, they dont give you the option to say "I want to do creative writing instead of English".


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

MisterPerfect said:


> Did you know any kids who sold candy as a kid? Since this thing is known to happen a lot. Accounting is just dealing with money, which means it the same as business, you have to learn the same stuff. You cant say "I didnt like it or no one I knew like it, since you are not the world of people". Some people might actually like doing math, and dealing with money. You dont really have freedom in HS, its kind of like the elections. They choose people you can pick from, they dont give you the option to say "I want to do creative writing instead of English".


I'm not saying kids shouldn't learn this shit, I'm saying they should learn all of it. Or a little bit of everything, until they're old enough to start thinking of post-secondary education and careers. It just seems like a much safer bet to me than letting kids have too much freedom at such a young age.


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## Kimochiru (Aug 12, 2015)

Oops, interrupting an intense discussion. Oh well.

Speaking exclusively of the education system of the U.S., I agree the model for the school system should be changed. Not many elementary schools give the students a solid foundation, and it's partially due to the lack of good teachers, and perhaps the way the Common Core(?) doesn't require or add certain ideas necessary for critical understanding. 
I especially put emphasis to elementary schools, since the age range of elem students is better for learning foundational skills. I'm not sure if 3rd graders should be picking out their own timetables, but the school system should definitely focus more on the critical thinking, understanding, foundations, etc. rather than skill or "how many books can you read but not effectively analyze". 

I mean, think of all the gifted students who are able to wing everything during school but when reality hits, they have no foundation in organizing and responsibility.


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