# Would you support your transsexual child?



## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

This thread is in memory of Leelah who recently did suicide because of her unaccepting parents. 

I would like to ask for a minute of silence and then what you would do if your child came out of the closet as being transsexual.

Article can be read here
Ohio transgender teen's mom: 'He was an amazing boy' - CNN.com

This post is highly connected with the topic "Honesty in a relationship is a PRIVILEGE, not a right" where I had an emotional breakdown after reading that article and seeing the venom that some people spit that leads people like Leelah to suicide.

Sleep well beautiful angel


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Though it seems especially pivotal if one has a transgendered child, I think it's pivotal to ones role as a parent to be accepting of one's child as a whole.

This man articulates the sentiment beautifully I believe.





This is why I stress the importance of accepting people as whole, regardless of them even being your child, anything less ruins people and puts them further away from you. I'm sure that mother loved her daughter, what she didn't do was accept her daughter completely as she was.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

I think it is repugnant and tragic that there are parents out there who fail to love their child - for whatever reasons and especially for something based on chromosomes.

Would any parents treat a developmentally or physically disabled child that way, because there really is no difference. A child cannot help having downs, spinal bifada or gender dysphoria.


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

I don't know how to officially ask this, but could a mod maybe move this to the 'general psychology' sub-forum?

Thank you


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## Mr. Demiurge (Jun 18, 2014)

Without a second thought.


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## Blazkovitz (Mar 16, 2014)

I would. There is nothing wrong with being transsexual.


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## Rice (Apr 27, 2014)

Of course.


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## platorepublic (Dec 27, 2012)

It's a no-brainer I will support my child no matter what, but I will never have children because they are way too demanding.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

I think many parents get caught up in what they expect their child to be instead of loving and acknowledging who the child is. It manifests in a variety of ways such as parents who expect a child to have a certain kind of career, have kids and get married, or follow a certain religion in which they were raised. Some parents see anything a child does outside of those expectations as some kind of rejection of the parents when it is often simply the child being different from the parents. When it comes to LGBT topics, people can be ignorant and expect that their child will eventually conform to what they had planned for the child. It never works and just leads to making that child feel unloved, which is why we see higher incidences of suicide among LGBT teens.

It's a tragedy that this kind of thing could happen from ignorance. I think a lot of unaccepting parents may not realize the harm they are doing until it is too late.

ETA: I voted yes on the poll. I have a very loose view of expectations for my hypothetical child and mostly hope that my child would turn out to be a good person, so I would accept a transgender child easily. I wouldn't feel that I lost my daughter or son if they were a transsexual person; I would feel that my son or daughter was now more recognized to me.


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## Vandrer (Jun 26, 2014)

Ofcourse I would

Although there is a slight chance that I will try to start and logically break down how/why they are transsexual, which could come off as not accepting it. I wonder if I will come off as too judgmental, so I will have to watch for that stuff if I become a parent. It is probably something I will have to watch out for in all aspects. =)

After the hug/I love you thing that seems obligatory, is there any thing that shouldn't be said in such a situation?


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Not if they are a serial killer.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

TurtleQueen said:


> I think many parents get caught up in what they expect their child to be instead of loving and acknowledging who the child is. It manifests in a variety of ways such as parents who expect a child to have a certain kind of career, have kids and get married, or follow a certain religion in which they were raised. Some parents see anything a child does outside of those expectations as some kind of rejection of the parents when it is often simply the child being different from the parents. When it comes to LGBT topics, people can be ignorant and expect that their child will eventually conform to what they had planned for the child. It never works and just leads to making that child feel unloved, which is why we see higher incidences of suicide among LGBT teens.
> 
> It's a tragedy that this kind of thing could happen from ignorance. I think a lot of unaccepting parents may not realize the harm they are doing until it is too late.
> 
> ETA: I voted yes on the poll. I have a very loose view of expectations for my child and mostly hope that my child would turn out to be a good person, so I would accept a transgender child easily. I wouldn't feel that I lost my daughter or son if they were a transsexual person; I would feel that my son or daughter was now more recognized to me.


IMO, this post describes why many parents often can't fully love and see how their kids really are - expectations of society which parents worries.

This is a sad thing as the impact parents' acceptance has on their children is strong. Perhaps the parents do care for their kids, Idk, thought some are too blinded by expectations that they ended up hurting them.

And it is not easy to break away from such mentalities for them. These old fashioned, judgmental mentalities where people has to comform to the typical images of what's expected of them. Hopefully as people get more educated and aware, things will change sooner so that LGBT and other people who suffers from discrimination can be freed of it and be who they really feel they are.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

I would support my child in their gender identity. But honestly, I'm not sure how far I would be supportive in making a physical transition. I'd be very concerned for their physical health and safety. Even taking hormones takes such a heavy toll on one's body. I'd hate to see my child die from cancer or thyroid problems in the attempt to look slightly more like another gender. I think this is one of those questions that would be difficult for me to answer unless I experienced it.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

devoid said:


> I would support my child in their gender identity. But honestly, I'm not sure how far I would be supportive in making a physical transition. I'd be very concerned for their physical health and safety. Even taking hormones takes such a heavy toll on one's body. I'd hate to see my child die from cancer or thyroid problems in the attempt to look slightly more like another gender. I think this is one of those questions that would be difficult for me to answer unless I experienced it.


People don't really die from taking hormones under a doctor's supervision.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

devoid said:


> I would support my child in their gender identity. But honestly, I'm not sure how far I would be supportive in making a physical transition. I'd be very concerned for their physical health and safety. Even taking hormones takes such a heavy toll on one's body. I'd hate to see my child die from cancer or thyroid problems in the attempt to look slightly more like another gender. I think this is one of those questions that would be difficult for me to answer unless I experienced it.


I've known a few trans people who were taking hormones and exactly all of them are still alive, and not even showing signs of illness.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Shahada said:


> People don't really die from taking hormones under a doctor's supervision.


http://hemingways.org/GIDinfo/Mortality_Study.pdf
http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf
Silly Trans Woman: Risks Associated With Hormone Use (Estrogen)
Hormone replacement therapy (male-to-female) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

devoid said:


> http://hemingways.org/GIDinfo/Mortality_Study.pdf
> http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf
> Silly Trans Woman: Risks Associated With Hormone Use (Estrogen)
> Hormone replacement therapy (male-to-female) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'll have to refute these claims. One of my psych meds has a side effect of raising prolactin and estrogen levels and I've been on them for a little over 3 months and I've had no ill effects, either. Besides my man titties getting a bit... fat...


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> I've known a few trans people who were taking hormones and exactly all of them are still alive, and not even showing signs of illness.


I've had half a dozen trans friends, and all of the ones who took hormones had pretty severe side effects. They often don't talk about it with others unless you really get to know them. One of my friends recently had full trans surgery, inverting her penis, getting breast implants and even altering facial features. She said the pain was barely worth it, and she will have medical problems for the rest of her life resulting from this, including many risks to her body. She's also developed serious back problems and other issues resulting from taking hormones for 12 years.

Another trans friend of mine went literally insane from taking testosterone, also under a doctor's supervision. In fact, the only trans friend I've had who did not experience severe side effects from hormone treatment was the one who started transitioning at the age of 17, and she still struggles with the effects of the estrogen, especially since it physically weakens her. The healthiest trans people I've met were ones who did not take hormones.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

devoid said:


> I've had half a dozen trans friends, and all of the ones who took hormones had pretty severe side effects. They often don't talk about it with others unless you really get to know them. One of my friends recently had full trans surgery, inverting her penis, getting breast implants and even altering facial features. She said the pain was barely worth it, and she will have medical problems for the rest of her life resulting from this, including many risks to her body. She's also developed serious back problems and other issues resulting from taking hormones for 12 years.
> 
> Another trans friend of mine went literally insane from taking testosterone, also under a doctor's supervision. In fact, the only trans friend I've had who did not experience severe side effects from hormone treatment was the one who started transitioning at the age of 17, and she still struggles with the effects of the estrogen, especially since it physically weakens her. The healthiest trans people I've met were ones who did not take hormones.


Which area of the world is this? I live on the east coast of the USA and literally have never met a transgendered person who complained about their hormone therapy... BUt then again I've only met 3.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Which area of the world is this? I live on the east coast of the USA and literally have never met a transgendered person who complained about their hormone therapy... BUt then again I've only met 3.


I also am east coast USA, although one of my friends lives in California and a couple were in Canada. And you say with such confidence that you've "met" people. Have you had long talks with them over a period of years during which you opened up to each other about fears and pains? Because I've "met" quite a lot of people on the street and been able to assert that they look/seem fine. But it's different to actually be there in the hospital holding someone's hand.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

devoid said:


> http://hemingways.org/GIDinfo/Mortality_Study.pdf


I don't think this demonstrates what you want it to demonstrate, none of the higher incidents of mortality were a result of hormone treatment and the study outright says so. A number of maladies are more strongly associated with male-bodied people who undergo hormone treatment than those who don't, but that's not particularly unexpected since hormone therapy does constitute physiological changes which are going to come with their own unique issues. None of these seem to put anyone in immediate risk of mortality as you seemed to imply HRT generally does.


devoid said:


> http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf


This looks like the same study, or another study that draws on the data from the previous? Anyway the results are largely the same, higher levels of mortality are generally attributed to factors outside of HRT. Of the primary causes the authors cite for the increased mortality ratios, only cardiovascular disease seems to be directly impacted by HRT, and the exact scale and nature of that impact is controversial. The ubiquity of cardiovascular disease as a cause of death in the general population also makes this tricky to attribute to HRT.


devoid said:


> Silly Trans Woman: Risks Associated With Hormone Use (Estrogen)


Pretty much all of this stuff is avoidable if the proper tests are performed before and during HRT, and the author says so if you read it.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

devoid said:


> I also am east coast USA, although one of my friends lives in California and a couple were in Canada. And you say with such confidence that you've "met" people. Have you had long talks with them over a period of years during which you opened up to each other about fears and pains? Because I've "met" quite a lot of people on the street and been able to assert that they look/seem fine. But it's different to actually be there in the hospital holding someone's hand.


Well, in that case it would be one, but she still never has complained about it and didn't even need surgery to grow her breasts. She hasn't gotten genital surgery yet, though... The only "complaint" she had was reduced sex drive, but it didn't bother her too much.


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## lackofmops (Mar 13, 2014)

I would accept them but be up front about my disgust.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Shahada said:


> I don't think this demonstrates what you want it to demonstrate, none of the higher incidents of mortality were a result of hormone treatment and the study outright says so. A number of maladies are more strongly associated with male-bodied people who undergo hormone treatment than those who don't, but that's not particularly unexpected since hormone therapy does constitute physiological changes which are going to come with their own unique issues. None of these seem to put anyone in immediate risk of mortality as you seemed to imply HRT generally does.This looks like the same study, or another study that draws on the data from the previous? Anyway the results are largely the same, higher levels of mortality are generally attributed to factors outside of HRT.Pretty much all of this stuff is avoidable if the proper tests are performed before and during HRT, and the author says so if you read it.


My only concern is not death. These studies do show that there are many adverse health problems which can stem from HRT, although there isn't conclusive evidence that the mortality rate is higher from HRT. A lack of conclusive studies also is less than reassuring. I personally wouldn't take a pill on the grounds of "Well nobody knows if it kills you." I understand that this is a very serious and emotional topic, and I don't mean to belittle anyone. I just don't like the idea of putting my children on HRT unless there is really not much alternative. Ultimately once they're 18 it is their decision whether the risks are worth the benefits. I just feel that it shouldn't be necessary to undergo very dangerous medical changes if they can feel accepted and loved for who they are, and several trans people have agreed with me on that.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

devoid said:


> My only concern is not death. These studies do show that there are many adverse health problems which can stem from HRT, although there isn't conclusive evidence that the mortality rate is higher from HRT. A lack of conclusive studies also is less than reassuring. I personally wouldn't take a pill on the grounds of "Well nobody knows if it kills you." I understand that this is a very serious and emotional topic, and I don't mean to belittle anyone. I just don't like the idea of putting my children on HRT unless there is really not much alternative. Ultimately once they're 18 it is their decision whether the risks are worth the benefits.


Well I wouldn't advise anyone put their child (or themselves) on HRT or any other serious medical treatment without the supervision and approval of a qualified doctor. It seems like the issue of serious and catastrophic medical consequences can largely be avoided through medical supervision. Hormones and their effect on people, including trans people, are generally better understood than SSRI's or how those drugs affect people, for example, but people don't tend to have as much of a problem with those being prescribed completely willy-nilly. Of course HRT shouldn't be prescribed on a similarly low standard, but there does seem to be a difference in how these sort of things are judged and perceived.


devoid said:


> I just feel that it shouldn't be necessary to undergo very dangerous medical changes if they can feel accepted and loved for who they are, and several trans people have agreed with me on that.


Well good for them and they have a right to make that decision for themselves, but they're not everybody.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

lackofmops said:


> I would accept them but be up front about my disgust.


That doesn't sound very accepting at all, actually.


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## lackofmops (Mar 13, 2014)

Shahada said:


> That doesn't sound very accepting at all, actually.


By "accept," I mean "allow them to live with me until they're 18."


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

That sounds rather cruel.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I would absolutely support a transgender child. I would not forbid a child from expressing his or her gender in any way s/he chooses, whether trans or cis, and would respect his or her wishes to be socialized as the preferred gender or as genderless, or whatever the child feels comfortable with. When it came time, I would get the child whatever hormone treatments were necessary as early as required for a smooth transition, if that were what s/he desired. 

It bothers me that it is legal for parents to deny their transgender children medical care that could affect the rest of their lives, endangering them in the process by potentially increasing their risk for being victims of suicide or hate crimes. I hope someday the laws change so parental permission is no longer required, at least for the medical care that would delay puberty and give the transgender child a chance to decide, as an adult, how his or her body will develop. I believe that giving parents so much control is a violation of the rights of children, and it must be stopped.


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

devoid said:


> My only concern is not death. These studies do show that there are many adverse health problems which can stem from HRT, although there isn't conclusive evidence that the mortality rate is higher from HRT. A lack of conclusive studies also is less than reassuring. I personally wouldn't take a pill on the grounds of "Well nobody knows if it kills you." I understand that this is a very serious and emotional topic, and I don't mean to belittle anyone. I just don't like the idea of putting my children on HRT unless there is really not much alternative. Ultimately once they're 18 it is their decision whether the risks are worth the benefits. I just feel that it shouldn't be necessary to undergo very dangerous medical changes if they can feel accepted and loved for who they are, and several trans people have agreed with me on that.


To be honest, if the choice is between transition and suicide (which it in most if not all cases is), than these side effects are a small price to pay


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## Apolo (Aug 15, 2014)

AesSidhe said:


> To be honest, if the choice is between transition and suicide (which it in most if not all cases is), than these side effects are a small price to pay


Because it's one or the other? Maybe parents should start raising their kids better, and not to be weak. Even if my parents didn't except me, I would not commit suicide... 

I disagree with the line of thinking that, oh no, we better baby everyone and pander to their emotions, otherwise they might kill themselves, oh no....

Teach them to be stronger individuals, so that suicide is never an "option". 


For me though, I would let them know that I disagree, let them know that if they want to act that way they can do so on their own, in the comforts of their own homes when they move out. Otherwise it will not be condoned. But that I can still love them dearly, without pandering to their every wish and desire. Just like I wouldn't indulge my child every time they want to be gluttonous, which leads to obesity.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

AesSidhe said:


> To be honest, if the choice is between transition and suicide (which it in most if not all cases is), than these side effects are a small price to pay


That's kind of my point though... I don't think a trans person would be as likely to have that choice (suicide or hormones) if they were raised in a loving and accepting environment. I guess my hope would be that if I could accept and love my child and give them a safe place to express themselves, that they would be able to approach the issue of medical intervention with caution.

I know this isn't the same, but I have Fibromyalgia. And when I was first diagnosed, my family, friends and teachers did not accept it. They called me lazy, or said I was exaggerating, or said that FM is a made-up condition. Many people accused me of not trying hard enough to prevent a flare or not exploring every option (and they still do to this day), as if it's my fault that I have a chronic illness. I tried to kill myself two years ago, and came startlingly close to succeeding. Nearly 10% of people with Fibromyalgia will successfully end their life, because they suffer an invisible illness which is surrounded by criticism. And because of this criticism, we are told that we must take drastic measures to appear like normal people. I know people with FM who take vicodin three times a day for their entire life, and end up with their whole body crippled beyond repair because of the harmful effects of long-term pain medication. And they do it because they're pressured into fitting in, as if being able to hold a 9-5 job is the sole indicator that you have value as a human being. Even though taking these pills will devastate them later in life and make it impossible for them to work or even move as they get older, they are willing to try anything to feel "normal" now.

I don't want my child to feel like they have to "pass" or have a certain set of characteristics in order to be accepted. I feel like it's a somewhat comparable choice, the need to fit into society and the willingness to take drastic measures to feel "normal." And perhaps if my child has Fibromyalgia they will want to take pain killers, just as perhaps if they are trans they will want to take hormones. But I want to be able to put them in a situation where they can make that decision as a choice between health and socialisation, not life or death.


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## Fredward (Sep 21, 2013)

Of course I'd love and support my child. Firstly because I chose to have that child, the child did not ask me to be born, I accepted that massive responsibility and I would do anything in my power to make sure my child was as happy and well adjusted as was humanly possible. Second that child did not ask to be transgender and holding them 'responsible' for it is so fucked up as to boggle my brain.

Honestly this abandonment/rejection of transgender children and LGBT members as a whole is one of the most fucked up things I think you can do to another person. You are not rejecting them for what they've done, for some action they've taken you are rejecting them because of who they _are_. And it's all the worse for coming from the people you cannot help but have the closest bonds to. And for such a stupid reason like societal expectations too. Or worse, religion. Just fucking no man. This is not something you do to anyone, least of all your own damn child. 

There's this article that's a pretty powerful read, it's not about transgender individuals specifically but it does show the kind of rejection and it's effects they have to deal with.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Chesire Tower said:


> AesSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > devoid said:
> ...


.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

I wouldn't support giving hormones that could cause physical changes associated with the opposite sex to a 12-year-old child who may not be able to make irreversible medical decisions for themselves. If some trans people feel they must undergo hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery to be socially accepted as their gender, that sucks. Puberty is weird for everyone since your body can change in ways that are completely out of your control, but it's probably a lot worse for transgender people. I hated a lot of the stuff that happened to me in puberty that could make me look "unattractive" or feel gross like getting body hair, getting fat where I didn't want it, and bleeding from my vagina and getting awful cramps once a month. My hormones went so wacky that I became mentally ill. I felt like a weirdo freak around people who were little girls when I was suddenly becoming a woman earlier than most of my classmates. I hated puberty a lot, but I never once wanted hormones to block my physical changes for an extended period of time or hormones to help me be another sex. That, to me, is the difference between a cis person who hates puberty and a transgender person. A transgender person will consistently express (not just once or twice in a joking manner to complain about annoying things about their body that most people agree with) that looking and being an adult of their assigned sex is something they don't want and can't accept.

Not all trans people undergo such procedures just for acceptance since a body dysphoria can be horribly uncomfortable. As a cis woman, I wouldn't appreciate living with a penis. If I had to look like a typical man on top of it, I would feel pretty damn awful.

I do think that parents need to consider the risks of any procedure accurately. By accurately, they should also consider the risks of a child committing suicide if they attempt to express a gender identity that doesn't "match" their physical body.

Here are some links (possible trigger warning for trans people in all the links):

Without Treatment, Mental Health Problems Plague Transgender Kids | Gender Identity Disorder | Depression, Suicide & Psychiatric Symptoms
Primary Care Protocol for Transgender Patient Care: Youth: Special Considerations
Uncertainty Surrounds Medical Treatments For Transgender Youth | CommonHealth (Very balanced, but some of the viewpoints in this piece are not things I agree with and seem dismissive to trans people)
https://nwhn.org/transgender-youth-providing-medical-treatment-misunderstood-population


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

Apolo said:


> Because it's one or the other? *Maybe parents should start raising their kids better, and not to be weak.Even if my parents didn't except me, I would not commit suicide...*
> 
> I disagree with the line of thinking that, *oh no, we better baby everyone and pander to their emotions*, otherwise they might kill themselves, oh no....
> 
> ...


Everything I just bolded is a textbook example of what NOT to say to a suicidally depressed person. Feeling suicidal because your brain chemistry or (in my case) thyroid hormones are doing the Mexican hat dance is hardly weak. It's pretty fucking easy to say that somebody should just overcome a lack of acceptance from their parents if you aren't transgender and had some jackass parent thinking they can fix you and acting like you're crazy all the time. That shit is hard, and sometimes it can wear down a person's "strength" over time if it keeps happening. It's not pandering to treat a suicidal person with an ounce of compassion.

To avoid babying your emotions, I'm going to tell you directly what I think. I think your opinions in this post are full of holes and that your statements are uninformed, prejudicial, and callous.


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> I wouldn't support giving hormones that could cause physical changes associated with the opposite sex to a 12-year-old child who may not be able to make irreversible medical decisions for themselves. If some trans people feel they must undergo hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery to be socially accepted as their gender, that sucks. Puberty is weird for everyone since your body can change in ways that are completely out of your control, but it's probably a lot worse for transgender people. I hated a lot of the stuff that happened to me in puberty that could make me look "unattractive" or feel gross like getting body hair, getting fat where I didn't want it, and bleeding from my vagina and getting awful cramps once a month. My hormones went so wacky that I became mentally ill. I felt like a weirdo freak around people who were little girls when I was suddenly becoming a woman earlier than most of my classmates. I hated puberty a lot, but I never once wanted hormones to block my physical changes for an extended period of time or hormones to help me be another sex. That, to me, is the difference between a cis person who hates puberty and a transgender person. A transgender person will consistently express (not just once or twice in a joking manner to complain about annoying things about their body that most people agree with) that looking and being an adult of their assigned sex is something they don't want and can't accept.
> 
> Not all trans people undergo such procedures just for acceptance since a body dysphoria can be horribly uncomfortable. As a cis woman, I wouldn't appreciate living with a penis. If I had to look like a typical man on top of it, I would feel pretty damn awful.
> 
> ...


Luckily we have the amazing thing called puberty blockers, which if the teen stops taking them they can just continue developing normally as their natural gender. This gives the teen and the family more time to think without the stupid natural puberty possibly ruining their lives


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Story time :laughing:...I used to live in a City that had an amazing gay bar, customers were predominantly gay men. It was great, the music was always hopping, the light system was stellar. As a woman who often was hit on by men, it was a great for my friends and I to have a great time , lots of dancing without being disrespected by hungry horny men. Every Sunday night they had a " Drag Queen Show ", it was awesome. We befriended quite a few of these men, they shared personal stories about why they did what they do. In their opinion trans/or drag queens were nothing more than gay men enjoying the pleasures of acting like women, after all they were gay and proud of it. Medication/hormone pills , surgery etc was where mental Illness kicked in. Some gay men ( I'm saying men here although it could be said about women also ) want to be accepted by other people, this is what drives them to the extreme. It isn't enough they know they are gay, they want to transform their body to feel more like another gender for external acceptance. Those few who went through with surgery etc were not necessary internally happy, so at the end of the day it was a waste, nothing will bring them happiness if they don't feel it inside, if they don't do it for internal peace. Although I don't believe being gay is a form of mental Illness, however I do believe gay people who take it to the extreme for external peace does suffer an extreme form of mental Illness.

Carry on !


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

> Quote Originally Posted by MuChApArAdOx View Post
> Story time ...I used to live in a City that had an amazing gay bar, customers were predominantly gay men. It was great, the music was always hoping, the light system was stellar. As a woman who often was hit on by men, it was a great for my friends and I to have a great time , lots of dancing without being disrespected by hungry horny men. Every Sunday night they had a " Drag Queen Show ", it was awesome. We befriended quite a few of these men, they shared personal stories about why they did what they do. In their opinion trans/or drag queens were nothing more than gay men enjoying the pleasures of acting like women, after all they were gay and proud of it. Medication/hormone pills , surgery etc was where mental Illness kicked in. Some gay men ( I'm saying men here although it could be said about women also ) want to be accepted by other people, this is what drives them to the extreme. It isn't enough they know they are gay, they want to transform their body to feel more like another gender for external acceptance. Those few who went through with surgery etc were not necessary internally happy, so at the end of the day it was a waste, nothing will bring them happiness if they don't feel it inside, if they don't do it for internal peace. Although I don't believe being gay is a form of mental Illness, however I do believe gay people who take it to the extreme for external peace does suffer an extreme form of mental Illness.


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Story time :laughing:...I used to live in a City that had an amazing gay bar, customers were predominantly gay men. It was great, the music was always hopping, the light system was stellar. As a woman who often was hit on by men, it was a great for my friends and I to have a great time , lots of dancing without being disrespected by hungry horny men. Every Sunday night they had a " Drag Queen Show ", it was awesome. We befriended quite a few of these men, they shared personal stories about why they did what they do. In their opinion trans/or drag queens were nothing more than gay men enjoying the pleasures of acting like women, after all they were gay and proud of it. Medication/hormone pills , surgery etc was where mental Illness kicked in. Some gay men ( I'm saying men here although it could be said about women also ) want to be accepted by other people, this is what drives them to the extreme. It isn't enough they know they are gay, they want to transform their body to feel more like another gender for external acceptance. Those few who went through with surgery etc were not necessary internally happy, so at the end of the day it was a waste, nothing will bring them happiness if they don't feel it inside, if they don't do it for internal peace. Although I don't believe being gay is a form of mental Illness, however I do believe gay people who take it to the extreme for external peace does suffer an extreme form of mental Illness.
> 
> Carry on !


Drag queens and transsexuals are two totally different things. If Transsexual woman are gay, it means they're lesbian. And yes Gender identity (if you're a man or a woman) and Sexual identity (who you're attracted to) are two different things. So a boy might feel like they're really a girl, transition and become a girl and still be interested in girls sexually 

So lets not confuses drag queens/transvestites with transsexuals


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## Lycrester (Dec 26, 2010)

Just the fact that they came from my body,I could never part with them. I'd rather them cling to me for support than anyone else.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

To add to what @Entropic said, it looks like the current recommendations include an endocrine blood panel before they give people with gender dysphoria hormone treatment.

You & Your Hormones | Endocrine conditions | Gender identity disorder


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> To add to what @Entropic said, it looks like the current recommendations include an endocrine blood panel before they give people with gender dysphoria hormone treatment.
> 
> You & Your Hormones | Endocrine conditions | Gender identity disorder


Of course they do and often check-ups are between every 3 and 6 months


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Except gender identity isn't linked to one's hormonal levels, and hormones do not cause gender dysphoria in the way you seem to describe. Would a male have low levels of T and it makes him dysphoric, then the answer is quite clear where he falls and how he identifies himself in the first place. Otherwise they would be happy and it would be a non-issue, no? Since low levels of T and the physiological results are seen as desirable outcomes.



Except that sometimes, gender identity is indeed linked to hormonal levels. Please back up your statements with scientific references.

PCOS, for instance, is an increasingly common medical condition in women all across industrialized nations. 

"For reasons that are not well understood, in PCOS the hormones get out of balance. One hormone change triggers another, which changes another. For example:

The sex hormones get out of balance. Normally, the ovaries make a tiny amount of male sex hormones (androgens). *In PCOS, they start making slightly more androgens.* This may cause you to stop ovulating, get acne, and grow extra facial and body hair."

Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS): Symptoms, Cause, and Treatment


So women with PCOS have a slightly higher incidence of male hormones. Keeping that in mind - take a look at this.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/4/1011.full.pdf

*Association between polycystic ovary syndrome and
female-to-male transsexuality*

"BACKGROUND: The aim of this study is to understand the relationship between polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), altered hormonal characteristics and insulin resistance in female-to-male (FTM) transsexual patients. 
METHODS:
We studied 69 Japanese FTM cases, aged 17–47 years, who were seen in the Gender Identity Disorder Clinic of Sapporo Medical University Hospital between December 2003 and May 2006. The subjects had never received hormonal treatment or sex re-assignment surgery. Prior to treatment, they received physical examinations entailing measurement of anthropometric, metabolic and endocrine parameters, after which we compared the values obtained according to the presence or absence of PCOS and/or obesity. Insulin resistance was determined using the homeostasis model assessment of insulin resistance (HOMA-IR). RESULTS: *Of the 69 participating FTM cases, 40 (58.0%) were found to have PCOS.* Of the 49 for whom HOMA-IR was calculated, 15 (30.6%) also showed insulin resistance, whereas of the 59 for whom adiponectin was measured, 18 (30.5%) showed hypoadiponectinaemia. Of 69 for whom androgens were measured, 29 (39.1%) showed hyperandrogenaemia. Insulin resistance was associated with obesity but not with PCOS. In contrast, hyperandrogenaemia was associated with both PCOS and obesity. CONCLUSIONS: *FTM transsexual patients have a high prevalence of PCOS and hyperandrogenaemia."*
(Emphasis mine.)

These levels were tested *prior* to any hormonal modifications.


If you're curious as to how I was able to make this association myself, my best friend and I both have both been diagnosed with PCOS. While we are biologically undeniably female, I've noticed that we both have quite a lot of gender dysphoric moments in which we have difficulties relating to the female sex (biologically and in other areas). Undoubtedly this can happen to anyone, and two people isn't a significant sample size, so I located the research and as it turns out, there is indeed a statistically-established association.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Metasentient said:


> Except that sometimes, gender identity is indeed linked to hormonal levels. Please back up your statements with scientific references.
> 
> PCOS, for instance, is an increasingly common medical condition in women all across industrialized nations.
> 
> ...


What has PCOS got anything to do with gender identity, though, whether a person is suffering from gender dysphoria? When it comes to PCOS and FTM, the case is quite clear on that taking T for a prolonged period of time, will make the ovaries develop into something resembling the nature of PCOS. For this reason it is advisable to remove the ovaries at some point, for example. The point I was raising is that if someone is say, FTM, and has high levels of T, it clearly alleviates any supposed gender dysphoria they would feel since high levels of T and masculinization of the body is something seen as _desirable_. Therefore it becomes a non-issue for these people, and treating them for their PCOS and thus set them at an "average" T range for female-born may increase any dysphoria they may already experience. 

I don't feel that you at all actually seem to understand my argument.


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## Harizu (Apr 27, 2014)

If I'll ever have kids and one or more of them were going to come out as transexual(s), I'd support them for sure.
I am genderfluid myself, so it'd be pretty nonsense on my part not supporting them.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

@Metasentient

If you are going to link PCOS to an FTM identity, it could be helpful to compare the percentage of people with PCOS who experience such gender dysphoria with the percentage of people with gender dysphoria within the general population. I think it's possible a lot of women with PCOS may feel that they look more masculine but be very, very unhappy about it. A lot of cis women don't like aspects of their body that could make them look more "manly" such as body hair that is more obvious (dark hair on light skin) or a more muscular physique. The women who hate looking more masculine than an average cis woman are definitely not FTM.

ETA: I'm not denying your personal experiences, but I am asking some questions about how much PCOS can be linked to trans identities or gender dysphoria on a broad scale.


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

Of course.


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## Kazoo The Kid (May 26, 2013)

Everyone thinks they would......


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Entropic said:


> What has PCOS got anything to do with gender identity, though, whether a person is suffering from gender dysphoria? When it comes to PCOS and FTM, the case is quite clear on that taking T for a prolonged period of time, will make the ovaries develop into something resembling the nature of PCOS. For this reason it is advisable to remove the ovaries at some point, for example. The point I was raising is that if someone is say, FTM, and has high levels of T, it clearly alleviates any supposed gender dysphoria they would feel since high levels of T and masculinization of the body is something seen as _desirable_. Therefore it becomes a non-issue for these people, and treating them for their PCOS and thus set them at an "average" T range for female-born may increase any dysphoria they may already experience.
> 
> I don't feel that you at all actually seem to understand my argument.


You're right that I did not see the need to disambiguate between gender identity and dysphoria, because I see them as being rooted in the same issue, which is discomfort with one's own gender. Having issues with your own gender --> seeking alternatives. 

I don't think you understand PCOS - it's a medical condition that is either obviously present from birth, and/or manifests from puberty onward. In other words, these women have a hormonal condition - it is exactly the opposite of "taking T for a prolonged period of time" and then developing something that resembles PCOS. So they were born with a medical condition that could be implicated in causing gender discomfort. Which is why I felt the need to reiterate that they had the medical condition prior to any hormonal modifications. 

The point of this was to back my initial assertion that hormonal changes in our environment can impact the way we feel about our own gender, hence the necessity of eliminating issues related to legit hormonal imbalances. 

That actually doesn't contradict what you said earlier about a male with low T levels feeling dysphoric, but all of my posts were about the need to test for that _before_ acknowledging them as transgender. I was saying that it's stupid to support someone's "transgenderness", prior to them receiving proper medical testing that should be adjusted for these external influences. 

Otherwise, indeed there are no issues.

And also,



Entropic said:


> For this reason it is advisable to remove the ovaries at some point, for example.


I'm not sure if you were referring to the FTMs or women with PCOS in general. For FTMs, well, that's a no-brainer. For the rest,

"PCOS affects between 5% and 10% of women ages 18 to 44.1,2 Because the criteria used to define PCOS are still changing, the exact number of women affected is unknown, but is estimated to be about one in every 10 to 15 women. Most women are diagnosed during their twenties or thirties, but PCOS may affect girls as young as 11 who haven't even had their first period."

Dude, that's like 1 out of 10 every childbearing-age woman getting surgery to remove a pretty essential part of her body. And then having to take synthetic hormones for the rest of their lives, for which medical science is still at the guinea-pig experimentation level. And which have been linked to cancer, heart problems, depression/suicidal mental disorders, etc.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> @Metasentient
> 
> If you are going to link PCOS to an FTM identity, it could be helpful to compare the percentage of people with PCOS who experience such gender dysphoria with the percentage of people with gender dysphoria within the general population. I think it's possible a lot of women with PCOS may feel that they look more masculine but be very, very unhappy about it. A lot of cis women don't like aspects of their body that could make them look more "manly" such as body hair that is more obvious (dark hair on light skin) or a more muscular physique. The women who hate looking more masculine than an average cis woman are definitely not FTM.
> 
> ETA: I'm not denying your personal experiences, but I am asking some questions about how much PCOS can be linked to trans identities or gender dysphoria on a broad scale.


Do you mean seeing how many non-PCOS women are experiencing gender dysphoria? Because I hardly think it's ~50% as it was in that study.

That's fine. My experience was not meant to be representative of my argument in any way; just wanted to state how I got here.


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## southernsunflower (Nov 28, 2014)

I'd like to think I would. Because if it were (gender/and amount neutral) I'd hope I'd want him/her/them to be themselves really. (I use plural because I'd want any kid to feel they were being true to themselves... presuming I'd have several... or one and I wouldn't know what they felt like/who they felt they were... I wouldn't want to impose?)... Plural is a safe haven. For me maybe. But most of all, I'd want any kid I'd raise (genetically mine or not) to feel as though they could be themselves. Even if it makes me uneasy at first, or makes me go: "oh.... okay...! If that's what feels like you!" kind of thing?

I'm weird.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

Metasentient said:


> Do you mean seeing how many non-PCOS women are experiencing gender dysphoria? Because I hardly think it's ~50% as it was in that study.
> 
> That's fine. My experience was not meant to be representative of my argument in any way; just wanted to state how I got here.


The study that you quoted indicated that a high number of FTM people had PCOS. The percentage of people with PCOS who feel as if they are FTM might be much lower than that and it could even be similar to the percentage of people in the general population who feel FTM levels of dysphoria. If so, it would indicate that PCOS may not cause an FTM identity. Perhaps, those people who had PCOS and felt as if they were FTM would have been FTM regardless of their PCOS.

I suppose that it would also depend on the type of gender dysphoria a person has. If a person dislikes their body for appearing unfeminine, they are not FTM. If a person who has more masculine physical traits feels that they want to be more masculine, that person might be an FTM who could benefit from hormonal treatment prescribed for men without a hormonal imbalance (taking into consideration the extra testosterone the person already has). If a person with PCOS is unhappy or unsure of what they want, perhaps treating the PCOS could clarify their feelings.

I'm certainly not a medical doctor, so I'm not sure if my opinions are correct at all on this issue. Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Obviously. That isn't even in question.


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## SuperDevastation (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't support anyone to be something they're not.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

SuperDevastation said:


> I don't support anyone to be something they're not.


What does that mean to you? People who would support their transgender children feel that they are supporting them being themselves, but other people may disagree. Can you clarify what you meant?


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## SuperDevastation (Jun 7, 2010)

TurtleQueen said:


> What does that mean to you? People who would support their transgender children feel that they are supporting them being themselves, but other people may disagree. Can you clarify what you meant?


Transgender isn't a personality, so supporting it is foolish.


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

@Metasentient I don't reply much and especially not with long posts in this thread because I'm too occupied with the other thread (and PMs), but I'll just make a short post here 

In general we could say this:

No one has the right to play God over someone else their body, only someone themselves can play God over their own body.

This is in general a very similar debate as 'Abortus'. Did women who get raped want to get pregnant? No? Did people who have transsexualism or who have a hormonal imbalance want to be transsexual or have a hormonal imbalance? No? But in both cases both pregnant women who were raped, and people who are trans or have a hormonal imbalance have the right to make an informed decision about what they will do to their body. No one, not parents, doctors, partners or whatever are allowed to tell these people what they should do, because it is their body and they have to live with it


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

AesSidhe said:


> @Metasentient I don't reply much and especially not with long posts in this thread because I'm too occupied with the other thread (and PMs), but I'll just make a short post here
> 
> In general we could say this:
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree that it is absolutely their right.

What I was arguing for is their right, as you said, to make an informed decision. Becoming aware of an existing condition that could be influencing their mental state. Ultimately, it is their decision.

Though, I'm honestly not sure where I stand on a kid that has an established condition, and insists that they don't want to try out the medicines to correct them, because they're so sure they are transgender. In this case, if they're under 18, I may or may not use my parental influence to override their desires until I'm certain that at least it's not a medical case. This is analogous to force-feeding your kid some bad-tasting medicine until the disease (in this case imbalance) is corrected.

Is English your first language?


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## Sangmu (Feb 18, 2014)

I would love them. I would encourage them to express their masculinity or femininity but I not be supportive of hormones or surgery. 

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is â€˜Mental Disorder;' Sex Change â€˜Biologically Impossibleâ€™ | CNS News

Why?
- Suicide rate in transgendered people does not lower if their friends and families are supportive. It's possible that unyeilding support for Leelah would have saved her life, it's also possible it wouldn't have. Trans people have a suicide rate that's highest after surgery. Families, coworkers, and friends are shocked because they gave nothing but unconditional love, support, belief and acceptance.
- 80-70% of children who express these feelings spontaneously lose them. 

Leelah's parents were clumsy in _insisting_ it was a phase, but you have to have empathy for the fact that this wasn't out of bigotry or because they needed to be "educated about transgender issues".


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## Choice (May 19, 2012)

If the poll results reflect any good portion of the younger generation given the general age of our posters, the future sounds better already.


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

Metasentient said:


> Oh, I agree that it is absolutely their right.
> 
> What I was arguing for is their right, as you said, to make an informed decision. Becoming aware of an existing condition that could be influencing their mental state. Ultimately, it is their decision.
> 
> ...


This is why in these cases a psychiatrist specialized in this topic should be consulted 

because you might ask @WhateverLolaWants (who just replied) how horrible she felt after doctors force fed her all kind of medication all her youth (please correct me if I'm wrong Lola, I don't want to offend you, I just remember that one conversation we had, and how angry you were at the pharmacy industry for what they had done to you) and what it did to her. (she might not want to transition herself, but this doesn't make the fact of force feeding children medication they don't want immoral)

PS: I don't know why my first language plays a role in this, but no it isn't (1st: Dutch, 2nd: English, 3th: French, 4th: Thai, 5th: German)


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Absolutely. There isn't a single doubt in my mind. I would be right there fighting next to them the whole way through.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

AesSidhe said:


> This is why in these cases a psychiatrist specialized in this topic should be consulted
> 
> because you might ask @WhateverLolaWants (who just replied) how horrible she felt after doctors force fed her all kind of medication all her youth (please correct me if I'm wrong Lola, I don't want to offend you, I just remember that one conversation we had, and how angry you were at the pharmacy industry for what they had done to you) and what it did to her. (she might not want to transition herself, but this doesn't make the fact of force feeding children medication they don't want immoral)
> 
> PS: I don't know why my first language plays a role in this, but no it isn't (1st: Dutch, 2nd: English, 3th: French, 4th: Thai, 5th: German)


It's tough. Indeed, it might be best to consult a number of experts in the field, while taking care to ascertain that they have no hidden agenda (very difficult). 

At the same time, I believe that the industry is seriously cashing in on this encouragement of people to transition. There are many stories of people killing themselves after they have, or otherwise living with worse depression, etc.


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## AesSidhe (Dec 14, 2014)

Metasentient said:


> There are many stories of people killing themselves after they have, or otherwise living with worse depression, etc.


But luckily this doesn't inflict the majority of the (trans) population

There'll always be people who will feel that what current medicine can do isn't enough and this to be honest is GREAT, because it pushes scientists to develop newer and better medicines and techniques . But like I said in a PM to someone: 

"It might not match, but it might be closer to, which is better then not match at all 

For example: You want two candies, but you can only have one, would you say: "If I can't have both, then I want non", in most cases you'd take the one candy, because having one candy at least achieves half of your desire, instead of non of your desire "


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## perpetuallyreticent (Sep 24, 2014)

Chesire Tower said:


> I think it is repugnant and tragic that there are parents out there who fail to love their child - for whatever reasons and especially for something based on chromosomes.
> 
> Would any parents treat a developmentally or physically disabled child that way, because there really is no difference. A child cannot help having downs, spinal bifada or gender dysphoria.


I like this comparison. It's realistic and brutally honest in its way of allowing insight to the importance of the need to view things like gender identification and anything that psychologically significant AS important as physical or mental disabilities. Not that these are in any way comparable- a person with gender misidentification is in no way ill, but it isn't any less real than an actual illness or disability. 

A large portion of society chooses to believe and therefore mask the blatantly obvious truth that lies before them in studies and science, all because of either religious based faith or wonky, narrow minded, ignorant morals. 

Anything not immediately understood is often shunned and there's a serious disinterest in the want to learn more about things we don't initially comprehend. Sad.


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

100% yes. I would do whatever it takes to make sure my transgender child felt deep down in their heart that they were a beautiful loving person and that nothing is wrong with them. I would do everything to make sure they had a comfortable and safe childhood. I would do whatever it takes to make it so.


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## Pillowish (Nov 25, 2014)

Don't let your beliefs destroy a relationship with other people.


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## Zeta Neprok (Jul 27, 2010)

I absolutely would support and love them 100%. I don't actually plan on ever having children, but I have thought about this sort of thing and I can't understand why anyone wouldn't still love and support them.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

I suppose. I mean I wouldn't hate them or anything. I don't really follow the science on this kind of thing so I don't know if it is something that can even be treated in the sense that it could be "cured". So I'd just want them to be happy and at peace with themselves.


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

AesSidhe said:


> Article can be read here
> Ohio transgender teen's mom: 'He was an amazing boy' - CNN.com


Ohio transgender teen's mom: 'He was an amazing boy' - CNN.com - via Kai - Newsvine


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## nameless07 (Oct 12, 2014)

hmm, i don't know about that since i'm not a parent, nor i intend to be the one, but in my opinion...

having a child, which is the "greatest gift you can get" for some people, is not something to be taken lightly. if they are not ready for the possibility of having gay or transsexual children, which scare most parents, why bother to have one? it just simply shows that they are not ready for being a parent yet. 

Also, if someone was so desperate, so broken, that he/she thinks that the only way out is by killing himself/herself, the responsible one is not only held by the person who did the suicide, but also the environment and society that drives him/her mad. societies that are being proud with their so-called "conformity", minority-shaming, need to take a good look on the mirror. who are they, or who are we to judge people? to hurt others that are in opposition with us or them?

again, it's just another youngster rant. i could get it wrong


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Metasentient said:


> You're right that I did not see the need to disambiguate between gender identity and dysphoria, because I see them as being rooted in the same issue, which is discomfort with one's own gender. Having issues with your own gender --> seeking alternatives.


But people can clearly possess a gender identity without having dysphoria about it. 



> I don't think you understand PCOS - it's a medical condition that is either obviously present from birth, and/or manifests from puberty onward.


WTF? Excuse me, but don't put words in my mouth. I'm well familiar with PCOS and what PCOS is. 



> In other words, these women have a hormonal condition - it is exactly the opposite of "taking T for a prolonged period of time" and then developing something that resembles PCOS. So they were born with a medical condition that could be implicated in causing gender discomfort. Which is why I felt the need to reiterate that they had the medical condition prior to any hormonal modifications.


How does this actually rationally connect to my original argument which is that the results of PCOS which may lead to masculinization of the body, is seen as desirable for those who suffer dysphoria because they do not identify with the body they were born with? 



> The point of this was to back my initial assertion that hormonal changes in our environment can impact the way we feel about our own gender, hence the necessity of eliminating issues related to legit hormonal imbalances.


How? You have yet to actually answer this claim in how they meaningfully connect. I've already made the assertion that if someone is suffering from dysphoria, then the ensuing masculinization of suffering from PCOS will be seen as desirable since their dysphoria is caused by not identifying with the body they were born with. 



> That actually doesn't contradict what you said earlier about a male with low T levels feeling dysphoric, but all of my posts were about the need to test for that _before_ acknowledging them as transgender. I was saying that it's stupid to support someone's "transgenderness", prior to them receiving proper medical testing that should be adjusted for these external influences.


But again, how is this relevant? If a male-born is suffering from androgen insensitivity syndrome, they may experience dysphoria due to lack of masculinization of their body because they identify as male but their body resembles that of a female, but if said person is _not_ suffering from dysphoria but actually identifies as a female and thus also the body they were born with, then there is clearly no problem and there is _no_ hormonal issue to treat, since they are happy as they are. 



> Otherwise, indeed there are no issues.
> 
> And also,
> 
> ...


I wasn't addressing either group, but I was addressing the link between FTM and PCOS, which is somewhat documented, in that FTMs who take T tend to over time, develop something akin to resembling PCOS.


> For FTMs, well, that's a no-brainer. For the rest,
> 
> "PCOS affects between 5% and 10% of women ages 18 to 44.1,2 Because the criteria used to define PCOS are still changing, the exact number of women affected is unknown, but is estimated to be about one in every 10 to 15 women. Most women are diagnosed during their twenties or thirties, but PCOS may affect girls as young as 11 who haven't even had their first period."
> 
> Dude, that's like 1 out of 10 every childbearing-age woman getting surgery to remove a pretty essential part of her body. And then having to take synthetic hormones for the rest of their lives, for which medical science is still at the guinea-pig experimentation level. And which have been linked to cancer, heart problems, depression/suicidal mental disorders, etc.


Essential? Depends on who you are asking and how important it is to them and whether the affects of PCOS if severe, also needs to be treated with hormones fyi, is worth having children for, assuming PCOS did not render them sterile which is also a common result. 

As for taking synthetic hormones, I don't think the risks as a whole, are necessarily worse than the hormones your body are already naturally producing. Not everything the body does is actually deemed "healthy", such as is the case with PCOS that also endangers the body due to increased rate of cardiovascular disease, obesity etc. 

There is no real link to my knowledge, that would link PCOS in itself with gender dysphoria, for the same reason that a person can be born intersex _and_ be transgender. They are two separately occurring phenomena.


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## Adena (May 14, 2014)

As a Lesbian I am very connected to the gay community and Leelah's case was just... Wow, it was so sad. Of course I will support my future child, whether they will choose to change their gender or not.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

The whole concept of being trans makes no sense to me. When I try to imagine how I'd feel if I were a woman... I really don't think I'd be bothered by it. Like, at all. The idea that some people's identities are so closely tied to their physical characteristics is so alien to me. So I'd love to have a trans kid. I've never had the privilege of knowing one. I think I'd learn a lot from it. Maybe the whole thing would actually start to make sense to me.


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

devoid said:


> http://hemingways.org/GIDinfo/Mortality_Study.pdf
> http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf
> Silly Trans Woman: Risks Associated With Hormone Use (Estrogen)
> Hormone replacement therapy (male-to-female) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Lol, firstly: DVT/blood clots are hardly a risk if you a) don't smoke and b) are not overweight. It's such lowrisk it's nearly ignorable. Breast cancer risk among trans women is so heavily debated that no one even knows. Some claim the cancer risk is as low as cis men, some claim higher than cis women. I wouldn't give any merit to that. As for infertility...well yeah, it's a thing. I have a lot of friends who have been on it for years and I've been on it a year. I'm fine. :tongue:

Pill HRT is only much risk if you are a risk-factor to begin with. Also the "look a *little* more like the other gender"...you do realize HRT lowers body hair, breast growth, fat redistribution so the face chances and how the entire body's layout is setup in terms of fat and muscle distribution, right? I wouldn't exactly call that a 'little'.



rhoynarqueen said:


> (PS, many people find "transsexual" to be a dated term, on par with "oriental" or "hispanic" without being a slur, exactly, but just... not the word they use anymore. Now, people generally say "transgender" or just "trans."


Transsexual isn't really dated. I personally use it occasionally to diffrentiate between a trans person medically transitioning vs let's say a more nonbinary trans person changing how they present but not relying on a medical transition. Transsexual usually implies binary and that hormones and/or surgeries are involved. Technically, crossdressers fit into the 'transgender' umbrella so it helps to narrow the scope, occasionally.

Not all trans people have body or gender dysphoria, but even I'd argue hormones or surgery is a hard sell if you arn't dysphoric about your body. Hormones are sometimes to 'help pass' for some and for others it's more of a "I hate what I see in the mirror, I hate the way my body functions, acts, and is shaped and want it changed"


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Shahada said:


> I don't think this demonstrates what you want it to demonstrate, none of the higher incidents of mortality were a result of hormone treatment and the study outright says so. A number of maladies are more strongly associated with male-bodied people who undergo hormone treatment than those who don't, but that's not particularly unexpected since hormone therapy does constitute physiological changes which are going to come with their own unique issues. None of these seem to put anyone in immediate risk of mortality as you seemed to imply HRT generally does.This looks like the same study, or another study that draws on the data from the previous? Anyway the results are largely the same, higher levels of mortality are generally attributed to factors outside of HRT. Of the primary causes the authors cite for the increased mortality ratios, only cardiovascular disease seems to be directly impacted by HRT, and the exact scale and nature of that impact is controversial. The ubiquity of cardiovascular disease as a cause of death in the general population also makes this tricky to attribute to HRT. Pretty much all of this stuff is avoidable if the proper tests are performed before and during HRT, and the author says so if you read it.


Refuting those three studies took you a maximum of 12 minutes. That is so ridiculous.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Entropic said:


> How does this actually rationally connect to my original argument which is that the results of PCOS which may lead to masculinization of the body, is seen as desirable for those who suffer dysphoria because they do not identify with the body they were born with?


Because the research I provided backs up my original assertion that an epigenetic biochemical influence can affect a person's feelings about their own body. 

Which I _do_ see as an issue, because it's a medical condition affecting their emotions. Therefore, if there is a medical condition affecting how they feel about themselves, we should endeavor to correct the condition first before declaring they're transgender.

You're pretty much saying that we should permit an established medical problem to dictate how a child feels about themselves, and then make decisions based on those feelings. I find that highly irrational.



Entropic said:


> How? You have yet to actually answer this claim in how they meaningfully connect. I've already made the assertion that if someone is suffering from dysphoria, then the ensuing masculinization of suffering from PCOS will be seen as desirable since their dysphoria is caused by not identifying with the body they were born with.


Have you been reading what I was saying since the first post? I'm saying THAT in itself is a problem. 

I was saying we should consider that their hormones and other chemicals need to be normalized first for their given sex, before we say "Whelp, we know their hormones are out of whack, but if they say they're transgender, let's just go with that." Although someone else mentioned the potential problems with this approach, for which I conceded that it's a case-by-case basis (consulting a professional).



Entropic said:


> But again, how is this relevant? *If a male-born is suffering from androgen insensitivity syndrome*, they may experience dysphoria due to lack of masculinization of their body because they identify as male but their body resembles that of a female, *but if said person is not suffering from dysphoria but actually identifies as a female* and thus also the body they were born with, then there is clearly no problem and there is _no_ hormonal issue to treat, since they are happy as they are.


That's quite outside the scope of what I had in mind - if they were actually born similar to what they identify with. At this point, it's too late for a corrective medical intervention because it would cause psychological distress and possibly physical harm, so in that extreme scenario, I would agree it makes sense for them to be female. 

My decision is still in line with my ideology, which is in the interest of making the least invasive changes - though it was obviously a medical condition that caused them to be this way and should have been addressed at birth before the gender identity questions set in.

I was generally referring to the more common case in which the transgender could NOT easily pass for the gender they identify as, which means they might require surgery to pass.

In the case of a male that doesn't look female, I actually am saying that is still a problem, because that is an established hormonal condition that could be negatively influencing how they feel. You are trying to pick apart gender identity and dysphoria, which _are_ different things, but in this case and context, it doesn't matter what aspect of gender discomfort they call it - it's _blatantly_ obvious that hormones play a significant part in both sex and gender development. It's a waste of time to keep reiterating this.



Entropic said:


> Essential? Depends on who you are asking and how important it is to them and whether the affects of PCOS if severe, also needs to be treated with hormones fyi, is worth having children for, assuming PCOS did not render them sterile which is also a common result.
> 
> As for taking synthetic hormones, I don't think the risks as a whole, are necessarily worse than the hormones your body are already naturally producing. Not everything the body does is actually deemed "healthy", such as is the case with PCOS that also endangers the body due to increased rate of cardiovascular disease, obesity etc.


I did not mean "essential for making babies". Those organs are essential in that they produce the hormones that keep any female alive. 

But I agree that it depends on severity whether the risks outweigh the benefits. Certainly it is excessive for one out of every ten women to have an internal organ removed.

As for synthetic hormones, of course it would depend on how bad the condition was, but I don't think you are aware of how under-reported the effects are. Besides the risks that we are already aware of, there has not been enough long-term research done on them, especially in the case of PCOS incidences that has dramatically risen within the century, which is why I said we're still at the experimentation level. Of course in severe cases, we may not have much other options.

It's related to MTF, but you can see what @devoid posted earlier in this page. Thanks for letting me borrow your research :tongue:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Metasentient said:


> Because the research I provided backs up my original assertion that an epigenetic biochemical influence can affect a person's feelings about their own body.


Sure, and there is also science that shows that there may be a correlation in how the brain is exposed to certain hormones that may affect the development of the brain and result in a sexual dimorphism atypical for the rest of the body, but scientists have also found a case for a specific gene causing transgender, so again, it's likely not just one cause but could well be a complication of many factors involved. 



> Which I _do_ see as an issue, because it's a medical condition affecting their emotions.


But emotions doesn't necessarily indicate anything in how one feels about one's gender identity. My girlfriend has PCOS and she's happy being a woman. 



> Therefore, if there is a medical condition affecting how they feel about themselves, we should endeavor to correct the condition first before declaring they're transgender.


It entirely depends on what they are feeling and whether those feelings at all pertain to their sense of gender identity. In some cases it may, in some cases it may not. I think you are falling prey to too much medical bias where you understand feelings entirely from the basis of impersonal scientific models but feelings about gender are more complicated than that. Science cannot and should not explain everything. 



> You're pretty much saying that we should permit an established medical problem to dictate how a child feels about themselves, and then make decisions based on those feelings. I find that highly irrational.


This entirely assumes that the medical problem is the _cause_, and I don't think you possess sufficient evidence to support that is the case. You need to ask the child in question how they feel and what they feel and what that means, before you start dictating for the child of what they need. That is as equally harmful. 



> Have you been reading what I was saying since the first post? I'm saying THAT in itself is a problem.


I think I was pretty clear on that I thought the way you connected the dots was unclear to me. I understand your position better, now. 



> I was saying we should consider that their hormones and other chemicals need to be normalized first for their given sex,


To be honest, I think this practice is pretty offensive to the child who may experience gender dysphoria since you are essentially saying that you have the right to determine what they feel and why they feel something and that you rather make them go through the pain by increasing their dysphoria just to rule out that it isn't caused by increased levels of T. Gender dysphoria does not correlate to the dominant hormone in the body. To a gender dysphoric child, just being put on the wrong hormones or trying to "normalize" their hormonal levels to their gender assigned at birth may cause severe dysphoria. That's why you cannot just look at it from the lens of medical practice. It's humane to the child and it's completely invalidating their personal experiences of what they are going through. 



> before we say "Whelp, we know their hormones are out of whack, but if they say they're transgender, let's just go with that."


Honestly, I think you should go with that. I read a story about a person born intersex and had issues producing hormones on their own and because they were male identified at birth, they were given testosterone and when they began feeling that the masculinization wasn't actually what they desired, they were completely ignored because from the vantage point that you are arguing, wouldn't their feelings just be caused because of poor levels of T? Of course someone born with a penis should have T, not E, or equal levels of T and E. They were transgender and wanted to be androgynous. You are arguing for exactly the same thing, here. One needs to listen to the wants and desires of the person in question, because while an FTM can have PCOS, PCOS in itself would not cause their sense of dysphoria. If anything, PCOS would help to alleviate it somewhat and treating their PCOS is what will cause dysphoria. By saying that "No, the problem for your feelings is your PCOS, you are not transgender" you are completely invalidating their experiences and are asserting your own interpretation of their situation as the correct one. It's extremely offensive and to someone who suffers from a great amount of dysphoria, I bet it can force them to want to commit suicide. 



> Although someone else mentioned the potential problems with this approach, for which I conceded that it's a case-by-case basis (consulting a professional).


Hence, you cannot just explore it from the point of view of medicine, but you also need to explore that gender dysphoria is a psychologically felt experience. Mind and matter are not separate but operate together. 



> That's quite outside the scope of what I had in mind - if they were actually born similar to what they identify with. At this point, it's too late for a corrective medical intervention because it would cause psychological distress and possibly physical harm, so in that extreme scenario, I would agree it makes sense for them to be female.
> 
> My decision is still in line with my ideology, which is in the interest of making the least invasive changes - though it was obviously a medical condition that caused them to be this way and should have been addressed at birth before the gender identity questions set in.


The problem is that you essentially are speaking from a position where you think you know people and how they feel about their gender better than they do themselves, and that doctors should decide for people what they should do with their bodies and how they should feel about their bodies, too. It doesn't work that way. You are trying to help but it's the kind of help that white people did to oppress Africans during the colonialism too. Europeans were essentially like, "We need to teach these savages how to be civilized" and began to impose all forms of ideas and standards of how Africans should be like, not because there was actually something inherently wrong with them and their idea of how to be, but because *Europeans thought* there was something wrong with them and how they are. You are doing exactly the same thing. You have no right to impose your idea of how people feel concerning their bodies and gender identity before asking the person in question how they feel and evaluating that. You need to trust people on their word if they say that they do experience themselves as transgender, since there is to date no real way to test this more than strict psychological evaluation. Dismissing it as being caused by PCOS and hormonal changes affecting their brain so it's not "real" is extremely damaging if the person actually is transgender. Therefore the correct way to deal with the problem is to explore those feelings before any actual treatment is being done in order to help the individual to determine what they are feeling, which is exactly the same practice being offered in the USA as of this writing moment. 



> I was generally referring to the more common case in which the transgender could NOT easily pass for the gender they identify as, which means they might require surgery to pass.
> 
> In the case of a male that doesn't look female, I actually am saying that is still a problem, because that is an established hormonal condition that could be negatively influencing how they feel. You are trying to pick apart gender identity and dysphoria, which _are_ different things, but in this case and context, it doesn't matter what aspect of gender discomfort they call it - it's _blatantly_ obvious that hormones play a significant part in both sex and gender development. It's a waste of time to keep reiterating this.


Sure, sexual dimorphism is important but how people identify is still not up to you to decide. My entire point here is that when it comes to "how people feel", regardless if the person is born intersex, with PCOS or AIS, this feeling is unrelated to the hormones or lack of them currently floating in their body. Don't push that kind of cis agenda. If a person experiences dysphoria because their identity is mismatched to their body, that is going to be true regardless of what hormones they are currently exposed to. Could there be a condition that is linked to PCOS that affects children during in utero development which could increase a chance to become transgender? Maybe, we don't know. The bottom line is that regardless if that is so, PCOS in itself as a condition, does not make you feel transgender after birth. PCOS could, if left untreated, of course cause physical discomfort because of how increased levels of T may masculinize the body in ways someone who experience themselves and identify as female may find undesirable, but if that is the case then it's already evident how they identify because then they identify as female and they experience physical discomfort and social stigma as a result. 



> I did not mean "essential for making babies". Those organs are essential in that they produce the hormones that keep any female alive.


You do realize this becomes a dumb argument in the case of people who have PCOS since people with PCOS produce hormones at an uneven or much greater rate than what is seen as normal, which is just as dangerous to the body? PCOS also increases the risk of cysts which increases the risk of cancer, and you suggest that I am the one being uneducated? 



> But I agree that it depends on severity whether the risks outweigh the benefits. Certainly it is excessive for one out of every ten women to have an internal organ removed.


Is it? Who are you to determine and decide that? Have you asked those women who decided to do so why they did? Maybe they can't live life normally because of their PCOS, even if the hormones themselves aren't a problem and they take blockers for it, they can still develop cysts and cysts can be extremely painful. 



> As for synthetic hormones, of course it would depend on how bad the condition was, but I don't think you are aware of how under-reported the effects are. Besides the risks that we are already aware of, there has not been enough long-term research done on them, especially in the case of PCOS incidences that has dramatically risen within the century, which is why I said we're still at the experimentation level. Of course in severe cases, we may not have much other options.


How can something be under-reported when there isn't enough data to conclude anything? That doesn't follow. Then it's neither over- or under-reported, since an under-report would suggest that there is information that suggests that there is more associated danger than what people think, but if there is a clear lack of data you cannot argue that it is being under-reported since the conclusion then becomes, "we don't know because of lack of data". So you can speculate and hypothesize, but that's very different. 

Similarly, perhaps it could also be that PCOS is simply understood and reported better and the rate of PCOS has not increased as much as reports of PCOS has increased. This happens a lot, too.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Metasentient for clarification, do you think that someone with high levels of T is more likely to experience themselves as being male than someone who does not have high levels of T in their blood?


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## malphigus (Jan 15, 2014)

Well, I don't plan on having children, but I can imagine...

Of course, it would be beyond ridiculous for me if I said no, because I'm trans too.


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## yippy (May 21, 2014)

AesSidhe said:


> This thread is in memory of Leelah who recently did suicide because of her unaccepting parents.
> 
> I would like to ask for a minute of silence and then what you would do if your child came out of the closet as being transsexual.
> 
> ...


I would rather have and love the 'real version' of my child than the 'fake version' of my child. If my son felt he was actually my daughter and that he is unhappy in his male body I would do anything and everything necesarry to make him happy. I would support him all the way in his transition. 

You cannot deny a person his real life!


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## Purple Skies (Aug 31, 2015)

Nope. I wouldn't support their decision but I can't see myself disowning them or cutting them off from my life.


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## NewYorkEagle (Apr 12, 2015)

I don't support the LGBT community, but I would be okay if my child wants to be in a different gender. America is a free country after all, despite having some controversy over anybody who's not entirely heterosexual for a long time.


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## SuperDevastation (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't support self-harmers. Also children aren't capable of making such a complicated decision.


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## SuperDevastation (Jun 7, 2010)

malphigus said:


> Well, I don't plan on having children, but I can imagine...
> 
> Of course, it would be beyond ridiculous for me if I said no, because I'm trans too.


Being trans isn't a good reason for a child to be trans too.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Yes, I would love my hypothetical child (or neice/nephew) and if they wanted to wear opposite gendered clothing, for example, and identify as that gender, I would allow them to.

HOWEVER, I'm a big nature/resource freak, and I would never allow hormone therapy or surgery until s/he turned 18...I ethically couldn't support that (elective plastic surgery of any kind for a child) ...and if at 18 they wanted to talk to a therapist or something and were intent on doing it, I couldn't stop them and would never disown them over something like that.


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## Laze (Feb 19, 2015)

There isn't a choice in this for me. How could I disown life that is composed of half of my genetic code—literally half of my existence. More than anything I actually would find them fascinating, me being interested in psychology and all. I can't even begin to empathize with the feelings of being inside the wrong body.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I think this is not a one answer fits all situations question. 

I would support my children always yes. 

But I do not believe in a simply just accept and have no questions policy. I would really encourage my child to consider their hormone levels and test that and take a matter of a fact approach. I think there too many extremes of people almost glorifying it dressing their kids as the opposite gender from like birth and then saying their kids were born that way to support their own agendas when its their molding, or parents that shame and disown their kids for not being a cookie cutter of their born gender. My children would never be shamed or disowned but I would not just accept a statement like that from a teenager and not consider it may just be a passing faze or identity crisis like many other fazes and trends teens have in a time of self discovery.

I guess what I am saying is their mental state and age would factor in how seriously I take their statements. Eiether way they would feel heard tho. And loved.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

SuperDevastation said:


> Also children aren't capable of making such a complicated decision.


This too...I think it's this thing where some people apparently think it's cruel to make a trans gendered child go through puberty. ..and they can transition as young as 12 I think? But no...I mean I want them to be sure, and make the decision as an adult. If gender isn't the same as biological sex, then well, they can see if they like their biological sex and have an adult brain before they make such a huge decision.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

yippy said:


> I would rather have and love the 'real version' of my child than the 'fake version' of my child. If my son felt he was actually my daughter and that he is unhappy in his male body I would do anything and everything necesarry to make him happy. I would support him all the way in his transition.
> 
> You cannot deny a person his real life!



Hmm so what if you aren't upper middle class and supporting such drastic surgeries were completely out of the question financially. You know, like most humans. What if my sixteen year old daughter feels her real self should have bigger boobs or a smaller nose?

There's a difference between enforcement of gender. ..like not allowing your child to dress, talk and play as they authentically choose. ..and actually saying being in the wrong body is denying a child or teenager their "real life." Talk about first world bullshit problems, give me a damn break.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

I guess I don't really understand why this is such a controversy to begin with. If a kid wants to switch genders... sure. Hormone therapy if they've been convinced for years that they're better off as the other gender. Surgery as an option down the road. There are so many difficult, life-threatening conditions and situations that kids can go through. I'm sure a child wanting to gender-transition isn't easy, but I also don't think it has to be this hard.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Joseph K said:


> I think it is repugnant and tragic that there are parents out there who fail to love their child - for whatever reasons and especially for something based on chromosomes.
> 
> Would any parents treat a developmentally or physically disabled child that way, because there really is no difference. A child cannot help having downs, spinal bifada or gender dysphoria.


You do know people do that right? They give disabled children up for adoption, abandon them, people used to put kids with something as simple as epilepsy in institutions. ..people reject their children over teen pregnancy, choice of mate (even sometimes for heterosexuals), drug addiction, blah blah blah....reverence of individual children actually is not directly tied to the enlightenment, but sort of came out of it through European Romanticism. ..and up until the early 20th century half of all children died before adulthood. ..yes, some people expect their children to be an extension of themselves, or they reject them out of moral disgust or social shame, I mean try being Chinese or something. 

That's why I'm staggered when American people are so self absorbed they think if they don't allow their child to have something like plastic surgery, they're being bad parents. ..I mean it's horrible to not love your child over their gender, but at a certain point living for happiness alone is actually a form of narcissism. It comes round full circle.


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## sweetraglansweater (Jul 31, 2015)

Depends on your definition of support.

I don't believe that altering one's physical appearance produces identity, esteem or the happiness that supposedly results therewith. I wouldn't support, in theory, my insecure daughter getting a nose job so I wouldn't support a gender-questioning child seeking to alter him/herself to find their identity. I don't think my theoretical trans child would get my sympathy if they decided to go through a bunch of 1st world privilege procedures to define their identity: I think that's selfish and materialistic. I would tell them that they should take that money and give it to the poor or save for a house or college rather than risk themselves in surgery for happiness. I would also tell them to find happiness and contentment inside of themselves, no matter the conflict between their physical and spiritual identity. Would I love them and refer to them with the gender pronouns of their choice as they wished and hear their concerns and issue, respect their individuality and autonomy and welcome their choice of partner(s) into my home? Yes.


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## SuperDevastation (Jun 7, 2010)

Thalassa said:


> Yes, I would love my hypothetical child (or neice/nephew) and if they wanted to wear opposite gendered clothing, for example, and identify as that gender, I would allow them to.
> 
> HOWEVER, I'm a big nature/resource freak, and I would never allow hormone therapy or surgery until s/he turned 18...I ethically couldn't support that (elective plastic surgery of any kind for a child) ...and if at 18 they wanted to talk to a therapist or something and were intent on doing it, I couldn't stop them and would never disown them over something like that.


You should know gender isn't an identity, it's something were all born with.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Love and support them of course.

I wouldn't allow for the surgery tho while they are still minors...When they are adults and freely making their own decisions, admittedly I will still not feel comfortable with the idea of surgery.


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## Blackknight72 (Jul 19, 2015)

I'd support them 100%.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

I would consider myself very lucky, and pull all the resources and support together needed for them to decide how, when, and why they wanted to proceed. Naturally, I'd be worried for them, but with transgender people gaining rights and acceptance, they probably wouldn't have to live stealth and cut off all ties with friends and family.


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## malphigus (Jan 15, 2014)

SuperDevastation said:


> Being trans isn't a good reason for a child to be trans too.


I never said I wanted my (hypothetical) children being trans. Whatever they turn out to be, I'll support them because I love them. Plus, I don't think any trans parents are against their child being trans.


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## Ardielley (Aug 4, 2013)

SuperDevastation said:


> You should know gender isn't an identity, it's something were all born with.


Actually, that's not quite correct. There's a difference between gender and sex. The latter is what we're born as, while the former is what we identify as.


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