# I'm an 8. Come disprove me!



## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi,

I've heard a few people say that on online forums, no one is allowed to be an 8. I'm an 8.

********* was someone who claimed to be an 8, but was dogged by constant accusations of being a counter-phobic 6.

Earlier today, I ran across an unrelated discussion of the same issue.

SO, those of you who think I can't be an 8, please come and make your case. 

I like to get to the truth in these systems, so you'll be doing me a favor if in fact I'm actually not an 8, and you have good evidence to support it.

So, someone submit to me the "Is this person a fake 8?" diagnostic, and I'll respond.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

I understand 8s can't be bothered much to prove themselves to others. 

So what are you trying to prove?


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> I understand 8s can't be bothered much to prove themselves to others.
> 
> So what are you trying to prove?


Smart first move. Never concede the time and manner of battle to the enemy! 

Lol, but seriously, I genuinely want to get the most out of typology; my concern with Enneagram is that it might not be a precise enough system to be useful. I don't buy the spiritual bits; I don't believe in spiritual mystical stuff at all. So if it's useful, then it should be possible for a reasonable person to identify themselves in it relatively easily.

Otherwise, with all the talk about 'deep knowledge' and meditation; that will just allow you to fall victim to the Forer effect. 

So, I found 8 to be the best fit type for me.

If someone can show me a complicated explanation for why the mentality that looks 8 actually isn't 8, then I"ll have to conclude that the system is not usable.

Basically, if there is one layer of depth, someone can easily fit into a box accurately.

If there are two, less so.

The more layers of depth you add, it's like legos, the more ways there are to construct paths to each box. If the system is crazy deep, then basically anyone can be anything, and it's totally subjective. 

Cool for some people, but not me.

On the other hand, if there is a simple explanation for showing who is 8 and who is not, I'll agree with the person trying to disprove me.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

You don't need to validate people's "accusations", as you call them, by asking them to disprove you. If you want to explore cp 6 for yourself, you'd do better with doing some self-study and introspection than relying on others to make their case. 

I don't recall seeing you around much, so it's possible that people here don't know you enough to provide substantive feedback based on this thread alone. Since this is your roundabout way to get people's opinions on your typing, you'd be better off starting a typing thread on the What's My Type sub-forum. The stickied questionnaires can, at least, get you organized in considering various Type relevant themes in your life. 

Fmp, people who catch flack for 8 typings, on this forum, do it not for typing at 8, but for throwing impotent hissy fits or giving utterly preposterous reasons for their typings WHILE expressly asking people for feedback, only to lose their shit when the feedback doesn't match what they want to hear. Most of these people tend to be ineffectual long term trolls with histories including a ton of infractions, bans and such. They stir shit, and get what they ask for. You don't need to be on your guard about people keeping you from typing at 8. It has been in the past, but right now, it's not an issue for a regular member going about their business, especially since unsolicited typing is not seen favourably here. 

If you are not being an ass yourself, people won't be inclined to take time out of their day to bother you. To take that further, if you ask for opinions on typing, stay as open to feedback that goes against your own typing, as you seem to be in the OP. Disagreements are a part of the process. At the end of the day, no one can make you type at anything you don't want to type at. So, let that be the non-issue it is.

All the best


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Vajra said:


> You don't need to validate people's "accusations", as you call them, by asking them to disprove you. If you want to explore cp 6 for yourself, you'd do better with doing some self-study and introspection than relying on others to make their case.


Thanks for the input. But I don't believe that introspection is a valuable way to learn things. Not for me, anyway. If people used to go around making an issue of fake 8s, then there is a good chance at some point there were a lot of fake 8s. You say they were trolls. Okay, then maybe I didn't need to make this thread. Thanks anyway.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Kollinhausin said:


> Thanks for the input. But I don't believe that introspection is a valuable way to learn things. Not for me, anyway. If people used to go around making an issue of fake 8s, then there is a good chance at some point there were a lot of fake 8s. You say they were trolls. Okay, then maybe I didn't need to make this thread. Thanks anyway.


You're welcome. That's right re: trolls. A few sincere members had bad experiences 2-5 years back, and the no unsolicited typing thing that was added to the rules has changed that big time, as I said above. You should be fine.

Just focus on your own experiences, and what you want to get out of the forum. As for introspection, you might discover along the way that there's no way to type correctly without looking inwards.

P.s. There's a ton of resources on the stickied sections in enneagram sub-forums (general and type-specific). Go through them.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> Smart first move. Never concede the time and manner of battle to the enemy!
> 
> Lol, but seriously, I genuinely want to get the most out of typology; my concern with Enneagram is that it might not be a precise enough system to be useful. I don't buy the spiritual bits; I don't believe in spiritual mystical stuff at all. So if it's useful, then it should be possible for a reasonable person to identify themselves in it relatively easily.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I just fail to see your point. You are taking a defensive position though. But that is merely an observation, not a judgement.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Everyone knows that Type 8 doesn't actually exist.

It's an _illuuuussiioooonnnn!

OooOooooOOoo!_


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

If you view the Enneagram as a some kind of cookie cutter way to understand yourself and without introspection to boot; then no, you probably won't find it useful - which would be a shame, since you can really learn a lot from the system.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

No offense, but behind this thread I have a sense that you're asking people to disprove something you've concluded but aren't completely sure of and/or are trying to make yourself feel resolute towards. 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I did it, and so did a lot of other people on the forum (in fact, I think at one point I made a thread titled very similarly to this one which I can now finally laugh at). It's just a natural step in a lot of peoples' typing processes. If you find things about 8 that fit you, it's good that you're taking the time to identify them. Just keep in mind that later on, you may realize that they aren't part of the actual 8 mechanism but simply are similar attitudes or mechanisms within your true type that overlap with those of 8, or can be described using the same language despite coming from a different Fear. 

Personally, typing as an 8 made me actually start blurting out rage more freely which ended up really, really helping me know I was a 1 later on. Reading about the way 8's "block out weakness" actually helped me later identify my own habit of shoving emotion and anything to depict me as being critique-worthy away as a Competency type. Reading about their potential to be magnanimous, protective, and heroic helped me take a bit more pride in my own efforts of following my own belief structure and will, even if the 8 reasons ended up having nothing to do with my actual type. Knowing "my type" can inadvertently harm others out of lack of awareness ended up being true of my real type as well as 8 after I realized I was mistyped. 


If you really think 8 fits you, try it on. You may really be one, and follow a completely different path than I did. If you are correctly identifying important things about yourself, the structure they are coming from will eventually crop up, 8 or not - given your OP, I don't get the feeling that it truly has yet.


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-21501-Any-man-who-must-say-I-am-the-ZNVX.jpeg

Similarly, a true 8 doesn't feel the need to prove himself/herself. 8s don't seek valiation because they are the ones who create it.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Sorry, I just fail to see your point. You are taking a defensive position though. But that is merely an observation, not a judgement.


I agree, I am taking a defensive position. What might that mean? I want judgments and astute observations. That's why I made this thread.

I am explicitly asking for it. So go ahead, you definitely aren't breaking any rules if I explicitly asked for it.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Chesire Tower said:


> If you view the Enneagram as a some kind of cookie cutter way to understand yourself and without introspection to boot; then no, you probably won't find it useful - which would be a shame, since you can really learn a lot from the system.


Cookie-cutter? No. Precise limitations? Yes. If there are no limitations, then there can be no meaningful insights. Creativity and so on has to have parameters to work with. Introspection as I understand it involves a lot of rationalizations; fine if you want to practice that, but rationalization can get you anywhere when the parameters are weak or non-existent.

This is not an attack on the Enneagram; I just want to see if it is usable in the sense that I understand usable.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Quang said:


> http://img.pandawhale.com/post-21501-Any-man-who-must-say-I-am-the-ZNVX.jpeg
> 
> Similarly, a true 8 doesn't feel the need to prove himself/herself.


So a type 8 acknowledges their 8ness as a matter of course? This is good information! Because I don't just claim labels without knowing what they mean; I have to be sure that the label is real. Is that a type 6 attitude?

Would it be fair to say that 8 is not going to have a lot of inner doubt, then? Animal's notes on type 8 say that, but I don't know if that's universally acknowledged.

What reaction can an 8 count on when they enter a room? If you can give me some more specifics, then I'll be well on my way to a correct typing.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Figure said:


> No offense, but behind this thread I have a sense that you're asking people to disprove something you've concluded but aren't completely sure of and/or are trying to make yourself feel resolute towards.


I'm trying to be completely open. If you see some of the replies I've made to others, I'm not putting on a front of some kind unless it's sub-conscious, and in that case anything and everything we do is a front. 

It's not that I doubt the type so much as I doubt the system if it relies on subjectivity. I don't accept subjective opinion if I can avoid it, in life or anything else. My attitude about checking my type on Enneagram is imported from Jungian psychology; you might remember me from way back when looking into that; I ultimately came to Socionics because it has the most empirical elements of any typology I know about, while still retaining a theory to explain the empirical observations.

So, my instinct is that if Enneagram has some empirical markers, if multiple observers can agree on someone's type, then that is far more valid than what I might think about my type.

If people say Enneagram doesn't have empirical markers, or if those markers can be interpreted in multiple ways with no non-subjective way of ruling interpretations out, then I don't think I can use it. I just can't accept something that I can't see working in real time.



Figure said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I did it, and so did a lot of other people on the forum (in fact, I think at one point I made a thread titled very similarly to this one which I can now finally laugh at). It's just a natural step in a lot of peoples' typing processes. If you find things about 8 that fit you, it's good that you're taking the time to identify them. Just keep in mind that later on, you may realize that they aren't part of the actual 8 mechanism but simply are similar attitudes or mechanisms within your true type that overlap with those of 8, or can be described using the same language despite coming from a different Fear.


See, that's exactly what I was afraid of. If there are multiple ways to describe the same things, then who is to say which mechanism is right? 

"Introspection" is the answer goes completely against my instincts. It leads nowhere in Jungian typology, so why would it lead somewhere in this system? 

I like Socionics because there are multiple empirical tests you can do; there are quadra behaviors, which is a big aid, and clubs, and less reliably intertype relations; usually the bulk of the evidence points towards one type. 



Figure said:


> Personally, typing as an 8 made me actually start blurting out rage more freely which ended up really, really helping me know I was a 1 later on. Reading about the way 8's "block out weakness" actually helped me later identify my own habit of shoving emotion and anything to depict me as being critique-worthy away as a Competency type. Reading about their potential to be magnanimous, protective, and heroic helped me take a bit more pride in my own efforts of following my own belief structure and will, even if the 8 reasons ended up having nothing to do with my actual type. Knowing "my type" can inadvertently harm others out of lack of awareness ended up being true of my real type as well as 8 after I realized I was mistyped.
> 
> 
> If you really think 8 fits you, try it on. You may really be one, and follow a completely different path than I did. If you are correctly identifying important things about yourself, the structure they are coming from will eventually crop up, 8 or not - given your OP, I don't get the feeling that it truly has yet.


Thanks for your opinion on that; I can explain my behavior using the 8 mechanism, but I could easily be twisting facts. That's why I want empirical approaches.

Is there a reason that won't work for Enneagram?


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

Kollinhausin said:


> So a type 8 acknowledges their 8ness as a matter of course? This is good information! Because I don't just claim labels without knowing what they mean; I have to be sure that the label is real. Is that a type 6 attitude?
> 
> Would it be fair to say that 8 is not going to have a lot of inner doubt, then? Animal's notes on type 8 say that, but I don't know if that's universally acknowledged.
> 
> What reaction can an 8 count on when they enter a room? If you can give me some more specifics, then I'll be well on my way to a correct typing.


A 8 would study the material by their own accordance, rather than ask for others to disapprove that they are 8s. 8s make bolder statements, not ask multiple questions. It is important to note that all the types are connected. As you go deeper into the enneagram, you will understand how the types beautifully entwine. 

When a 8 enters a room, their movements are deliberate, natural, and solid. They have a steely 'warrior'-like expression that commands attention and obedience. They extrude confidence or otherwise intensity. They don't fidget nor look around in confusion like 6 or 9s.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Kollinhausin said:


> Cookie-cutter? No. Precise limitations? Yes. If there are no limitations, then there can be no meaningful insights. Creativity and so on has to have parameters to work with. Introspection as I understand it involves a lot of rationalizations; fine if you want to practice that, but rationalization can get you anywhere when the parameters are weak or non-existent.
> 
> This is not an attack on the Enneagram; I just want to see if it is usable in the sense that I understand usable.


The problem with this is that it is far too complex a system to be able to have those clear as opposed to arbitrary limits that you seek. You ultimately discover your correct typing in time - intuitively. I can't really explain how it works but the more you read, study and observe; the most you will ultimately understand about yourself and the limits that you place on yourself through your type. I am sure that I am not the first and sure I won't be the last person to tell you how frustrating this typing journey can be; so, why did I stick with it then? I stayed with it because knowing my true type allowed me to attempt to directly confront my issues and ultimately grow more as a person. If you don't give up on the Enneagram, I guarandamntee that you will find it to be extremely rewarding in the long run. See, the crux of the system is not on how rational, open ended or introspective it is but on rather on whether it works or not. You claim to be primarily concerned with it's usefulness. How do you define that? If you define it the same way as I do: as being successful in benefitting in the precise way, it promises to enlighten you and to help you grow; then yes, it is definitely "useful" - in fact, one of the most effective psychological tools I have ever used, as far as personal growth is concerned.


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

Kollinhausin said:


> I'm trying to be completely open. If you see some of the replies I've made to others, I'm not putting on a front of some kind unless it's sub-conscious, and in that case anything and everything we do is a front.
> 
> It's not that I doubt the type so much as I doubt the system if it relies on subjectivity. I don't accept subjective opinion if I can avoid it, in life or anything else. My attitude about checking my type on Enneagram is imported from Jungian psychology; you might remember me from way back when looking into that; I ultimately came to Socionics because it has the most empirical elements of any typology I know about, while still retaining a theory to explain the empirical observations.
> 
> ...


You didn't label yourself as an 8 before did you?


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Quang said:


> A 8 would study the material by their own accordance, rather than ask for others to disapprove that they are 8s. 8s make bolder statements, not ask multiple questions. It is important to note that all the types are connected. As you go deeper into the enneagram, you will understand how the types beautifully entwine.
> 
> When a 8 enters a room, their movements are deliberate, natural, and solid. They have a steely 'warrior'-like expression that commands attention and obedience. They extrude confidence or otherwise intensity. They don't fidget nor look around in confusion like 6 or 9s.


I move fast and kind of mechanical because I'm on autopilot and just want to get to where I'm going; I'm definitely not slow or deliberate. When I enter a room I don't extrude or project anything and I don't look around or fidget or anything; I don't pay attention to the impression I'm making at all, unless I have a specific reason to. I just go in and do what I am there to do. I'm pretty oblivious to my surroundings.

Thanks for the input. What type(s) does that sound more like?


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Do you love kittens? Cause all 8s love kittens. You can't be an 8 if you don't love kittens. True story.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

drmiller100 said:


> Howdy,
> 
> I have a VERY short memory. I attribute my memory to being entp, with no Si, but Truth is somewhere along the lines of I have a shitty memory.
> I don't remember you. IF i have forgotten any interactions with you, my sincere apologies.


No worries.



> IT seems to me you are tired of Entropy's antics.


Oh, it takes a lot more than that to tire me. 


> Since you brought up Animal, I'll use her as an example. She struggled to find her identity. Like many of us, she "tried on" some different types, much like one would try on a jacket for fit, color, feel, etc. I do the same thing. The OP of this thread is doing the same thing.


I agree. It's why I encouraged him to try on and explore 6, which he considers a possible typing, in his own time. 


> The OP tried on 8, looked in the mirror a bit, but admits to being somewhat new to enneagram, and is inviting other's comments. This is a GOOD THING. This is not Trolling. This is not baiting, or being an asshole. Sometimes we cannot see really obvious things about ourselves, which is part of why we are here.


If you are making a general comment, I agree. If you are referring to any of my posts, I will just add that I see nothing wrong, assholish, baiting or what have you with OP or his approach here. My suggestion to him would be to do more reading on his own time, but he claims that isn't his learning style. So you know, whatever helps. Different people prefer different methods. I hope he will come to see the worth in introspection, however. We have to look inwards to get anywhere with the Enneagram.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Vajra said:


> If you are making a general comment, I agree. If you are referring to any of my posts, \.


IT was TOTALLY a general comment. I have a short memory - I don't remember any of your posts.... (Grins......)

I am also laying groundwork for the future. Once upon a time I got teamed up on because I was not ate enough for some people. Not you, not entropic, not anyone who is still posting on this forum to my knowledge. 

But I am laying groundwork for those of you with longer memories to not do that to someone else, and if I lay the groundwork well enough, people will step in and put a stop to it if they see it. 

Well met.


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## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm glad that whenever I have a chance to come to this forum, certain things remain constant - namely Vaj's wall of text posts. Never change please, it's good to have this stability in such troubling times.


To contribute so I'm not labelled a trolling fake-ate, OP - enneagram is not a quick fix; if you don't want to spend time in introspection, I'd bail. It's a lot of effort and since it's tied to your identity - to your very sense of self, it can't be answered quickly. 


It's like asking for some quick tips on weight loss and the best possible workout- there ain't an easy answer. The reality is you have to do it the tried and true way; self experimentation and persistence. 


I wish you luck in your endeavors.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> I'm not nearly the expert on 6's you are.
> 
> I've not heard of 6's being called "truth tellers."
> 
> References?


The 468 archetype is called the truth-teller, for example, and it is because of the 6 being in there and how the 6 is attuned to seeking and exposing the truth of things. I can't think of any explicit description I've read, but you will find that many 6 descriptions emphasize elements such as being whistleblowers and the like. 



> >>>an 8 desires for the world to hear them and acknowledge their story
> 
> No. 8's don't desire to talk just to talk, or care if anyone hears them. 8's are more action oriented. I agree with your comments about adjusting the world. An 8 will adjust the world pretty happily.


You completely misunderstand this. It has nothing to do with talk, not even action, but it's about acknowledgement. Very different. 



manofgod69 said:


> Huh... interesting. Have you written on this more extensively?


No. 

@Vajra zzzzz tl;dr but it's nice to know nothing I wrote to you got to you, despite my attempt at civility. You can keep up that attempt at slander and the attempts to suggest I'm not an 8, but isn't it all quite funny seeing what I wrote to you in my previous post to you? You claim you aren't enforcing some notion of standard of what an 8 is and is in fact very accepting of people and how they type, mistype or not, but here you are, now attempting to direct my attention to that you think I'm a mistype. Unfortunately for you though, I'm not, and that's something I know experientially. Since you do not share that experience nor have you bothered to ask me, that request is still up in the air btw, on what experiential basis I type the way I do and you are, compared to I, unable see what goes on in people's minds by reading between the lines as to why they think they way they do, that knowledge will remain outside of your grasp. It seemingly bothers you quite a fair bit seeing how much effort you after all spent on writing that post of yours, and I think that says way more about you than it does I. 

I think a much more interesting point for you to consider is why it is important for you to manipulate the presentation of yourself and that of others in order to create an image of who is the hero and who is the villain. I don't mind dressing up as the villain once in a while, but I won't do that today but you can keep trying. Until then, I expect you to either address the points I brought up in a way that is not an attempt to slander my character and work with reality as it is, objectively, instead of creating subjective distortions of it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Entropic said:


> @_Vajra_ zzzzz tl;dr but it's nice to know nothing I wrote to you got to you, despite my attempt at civility.


Your "civility" is ever so endearing every time it raises it's pretty little head. 

It's nicer to know that there's nothing you can objectively come up with to back up any of the points you made when asked for facts supporting your delusions of my omnipotence, the creation of arbitrary standards surrounding 8ness and the more indirect claims of bullying. It is not unusual for you to backpeddle and fumble around ineptly, this way.

It's even nicer to see that this time around you have grown something resembling the beginnings of a spine, which has miraculously kept you from pissing all over yourself and losing your shit at the drop of a hat, yet again. Let's see how long this will last, this time around. 




> You can keep up that attempt at slander and the attempts to suggest I'm not an 8, but isn't it all quite funny seeing what I wrote to you in my previous post to you?


I will, again, repeat for you slowly. Pointing out easily verifiable facts about your history of trolling, harassment and more is, per definition, not slander. Slander involves the fabrication of lies, which aligns far more with your own silliness. 

Yes, yes, you are funny, in the way that watching moss grow is funny. 



> You claim you aren't enforcing some notion of standard of what an 8 is and is in fact very accepting of people and how they type, mistype or not, but here you are, now attempting to direct my attention to that you think I'm a mistype.


Actually no. That is a red herring, yet again. I am neither concerned with nor alluding to your typing. Surely, the words projection and paranoia are not exclusive to any one type. 


> Unfortunately for you though, I'm not, and that's something I know experientially.


You don't need to try and convince me of that. I couldn't give less of a fuck if I tried, not until you ask for my opinion and I care to give it at the time. 



> Since you do not share that experience nor have you bothered to ask me, that request is still up in the air btw, on what experiential basis I type the way I do


Your typing is irrelevant to this discussion. In fact, it was you who requested that I try and get to know you better, so you could have my affirmation as to your typing. This is not on my agenda. 

If you want to chat about your type, and quit derailing other people's threads, over your personal issues with me, the onus is on you to privately contact me. See how that works? 


> and you are, compared to I, unable see what goes on in people's minds by reading between the lines as to why they think they way they do, that knowledge will remain outside of your grasp.


How is that you have the knowledge of my intent and agendas, which you claim to? Pray tell. 


> It seemingly bothers you quite a fair bit seeing how much effort you after all spent on writing that post of yours, and I think that says way more about you than it does I.


If you think my post was about disproving your typing, you couldn't be more off base. The post straightforwardly addresses your hypocritical and baseless claims, to which you have supplied no refutation, as expected. Given that you are full of hot air, seeing your arguments fall flat in the face of direct inquire and objective critique, is hardly unusual. It's a common sight, around these parts. Your typing doesn't bother me. It is, evident in your approach to me, that it is my disagreement with your typing, that I have only expressed on a thread where you explicitly asked for feedback, that bothers you. This is just yet another projection. 

As for the length of my posts, brevity has never been my thing. If it consoles you, feel free to believe that it is a result of a great deal of effort. Hell, it takes me more effort to be brief than it does to churn out a "wall of text". 

Now it is your lack of response to my query that dismantles your entire argument, and that says more about you than anything else. 


> I think a much more interesting point for you to consider is why it is important for you to manipulate the presentation of yourself and that of others in order to create an image of who is the hero and who is the villain.


You project like a pro. It is plainly obvious that it is you who repeatedly attempts to portray yourself as the "heroic defender" of the ates and other purported victims of my Enneagram oppression. It is, in fact, you who has done as foolish, and massively revealing, a thing as comparing me to a genocidaire and to a demon LOL (does it get more obvious than that who is villainizing whom?), and in this case, making frankly delusional claims about my damaging omnipotence and silencing of members on an entire sub-forum.

It is you who needs to project himself as the "hero", and try your darndest to paint your opponent in debates, that you initiate to stir shit, as oppressive villains- aka bullies, reality twisting manipulative power trippers etc. 

In fact, I describe you as nothing more than a poor imitation of a paper tiger. You are no hero, and you most certainly are no villain. Trolling and harassing resulting in a ban flags your actions as cowardly and lacking integrity. It doesn't elevate you in my eyes as any kind of anti-hero. Too bad for you. 

You are, of course, free to hold on to that self-image since it seems to validate your badassery in your own eyes. 
As for me, I have no attachment to either being a hero or a villain, and unlike you, I neither self-identify that way nor feel the need to add such tag lines to my signature, in keeping with said attachment. Such categories are patently meaningless to me. If I mention that I dislike the abuse of vulnerability, it doesn't make me a hero. All it does is illustrate that I have managed to hold on to elements of humaneness. 


> I don't mind dressing up as the villain once in a while, but I won't do that today but you can keep trying.


That hilariously self-congratulatory tone is very telling. Like I said, you never have been a 'villain'. You more resemble a fish, out of water, flip flopping on a deck, every time you lose your shit. Perhaps, your little lapdogs validate your deluded claims to villainy. You won't get that with me. I don't elevate silly trolling that way. 

You can keep trying though, to convince me of your type, to convince me of your villainy and whatever else you feel the need to convince me of. It makes for a good weekend show.


> Until then, I expect you to either address the points I brought up in a way that is not an attempt to slander my character and work with reality as it is, objectively, instead of creating subjective distortions of it.


Your 'points' were more than debunked multiple times. You may commence chasing your own tail.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> I'm trying to be completely open. If you see some of the replies I've made to others, I'm not putting on a front of some kind unless it's sub-conscious, and in that case anything and everything we do is a front.


It may be subconscious, that was my point. A lot of your real type comes from the subconscious, and you don't know your core type for certain yet. 




> It's not that I doubt the type so much as I doubt the system if it relies on subjectivity. I don't accept subjective opinion if I can avoid it, in life or anything else. My attitude about checking my type on Enneagram is imported from Jungian psychology; you might remember me from way back when looking into that; I ultimately came to Socionics because it has the most empirical elements of any typology I know about, while still retaining a theory to explain the empirical observations.
> 
> So, my instinct is that if Enneagram has some empirical markers, if multiple observers can agree on someone's type, then that is far more valid than what I might think about my type.


Okay, I see where you're coming from now. 

You will _not_ see empirical markers for enneatype until you develop an accurate inner observer, and most of the time you only know it's accurate after you know your type. I know you said you're not hyper introspective, but you need to objectively observe yourself before looking for objectivity within the theory - which is difficult. 

Before anyone does so, their views on type will be subjective and floppy (even if they are typed_ correctly_). Once you do learn to observe yourself correctly and how it fits one type's hardware, you'll find it objective in the sense that you literally cannot get out of the mechanics of your type - when you try to do so, you go straight to your type to try. This stretches to almost everything you think or do daily - you go immediately to your type by reflex which, ironically, is why it's so hard to pinpoint. 



> If people say Enneagram doesn't have empirical markers, or if those markers can be interpreted in multiple ways with no non-subjective way of ruling interpretations out, then I don't think I can use it. I just can't accept something that I can't see working in real time.


The "objective" evidence in the theory is watching yourself do the same thing over and over again without having control over it. 




> See, that's exactly what I was afraid of. If there are multiple ways to describe the same things, then who is to say which mechanism is right?


What I tell people to think about is, what they have historically really wanted - wanted badly. Then, why specifically they wanted it and, most importantly, what would happen if they _did not get_ what they wanted. Try and think of as many examples of this as you can. 

When you do this, your core fear will likely surface as a pattern. What people want is often a product of what they think (consciously or not) will compensate for a void, and in the enneagram, your distorted worldview (type/fixation) creates many of these perceived voids. 

As a very brief example, I remember having a discussion with a friend (unknowingly 6w7) once about what's important in life. He went on for quite a bit about being financially literate, being prepared in case something catastrophic happened, being willing to take "prudent risks," staying in good health, enjoying life every now and then because it may end. When I asked him why these things are so important, his response was that you never know what could happen to your body. You could get a brain tumor and be dead in a month, like Bob. Passion of 6 - fear - and not being sure, and arming oneself in the event of the worst of what could happen to you. For my friend, and all 6's, the distorted worldview is that the world is dangerous and can harm you, and you need to arm yourself to be prepared for it; the void is a void of certainty. For him, being financially adept helps him feel sure and fill this void.

Other types would experience this differently based on their fears, and 6's would have perhaps different methods and contexts for their core fear.



> I like Socionics because there are multiple empirical tests you can do; there are quadra behaviors, which is a big aid, and clubs, and less reliably intertype relations; usually the bulk of the evidence points towards one type. /QUOTE]
> 
> I agree that socionics is very useful, but its scope if completely different than that of the enneagram. The enneagram concepts are independent of Jungian type, and interestingly complement each other because of this.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

It's clear that somewhere along the line Vajra got the upper hand in a dispute with Entropic, and Entropic finds this state of things unsustainable and so extends the 'front', but Vajra has the high ground right now, at least in this thread, and is more than willing to keep pushing farther. 

@_Vajra_ : Don't speak for me as a part of the line you're taking; I really want to see a resolution to this dispute, and I won't if it takes place over pm. By all means continue to reply here, although I think this post of mine will bring the exchange to an end.

@_Entropic_ : You've been outflanked, that's obvious. Vajra's 'man of peace' thing is clearly a little overblown, I can't tell if it's conscious or just a response to being in the upper hand when challenged, but any passive aggressive elements aren't going to be uprootable via direct confrontation unless you've really got specific examples from elsewhere. 

Both : Thx for advice, I'll consider all of it. One interesting thing I've learned from the structure of your argument is that I would react the same way as Entropic in a similar situation; in fact, I've done so in the past. That is, try to alter the balance of a situation by direct confrontation even when someone else has the higher ground. 

This is why I think examples are better than introspection. I'll collect lots of examples of different behavioral mechanisms, and eventually when I do introspect, I won't be looking at an amorphous mass, but puzzle pieces with a specific shape.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> This is why I think examples are better than introspection. I'll collect lots of examples of different behavioral mechanisms, and eventually when I do introspect, I won't be looking at an amorphous mass, but puzzle pieces with a specific shape.


I don't see the point of examples unless you possess the self-awareness, which only comes from introspection, to be able to map the examples to, personally. The enneagram is a tool for introspection and is not intended to be another badge to wear on your chest. 

@Vajra You can call it what you want, but it just goes to show that you aren't listening to being receptive to the information being conveyed to you, lol. One would think you would be able to use another form of tactic by now, if the first one isn't working, and attempting to suggest I am the one who is bullying (bullying who? Care to point out concrete examples? Are you being bullied because I point out a conceptual error in your reasoning? Then clearly people should never be able to have a theoretical disagreement since it would always fall under the line of bullying and you seem to be able to deal with it just fine, aren't you?) is just again, an outright slander guiled under pretty choices of words, something you are very prone of doing, btw. I am pointing out something you have done in the past yes, and something you keep doing and it is something I take issue with, though my initial post was of course not just directed at you but also to Quang, because he too, did the same as you (as did a couple of others but I did not bother to mention those though I definitely could have had, but I didn't see it as a potential problem until it reached the point where Quang's first post happened). 

I think this particular way of talking about type 8 needs to be addressed and so I did, and I also explained to you in great detail, why I think it needs to be addressed and what issue I take with it. You on the other hand, is very invested in trying to undermine my character. 

Again, still waiting for that PM.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Entropic said:


> The 468 archetype is called the truth-teller, for example, and it is because of the 6 being in there and how the 6 is attuned to seeking and exposing the truth of things. I can't think of any explicit description I've read, but you will find that many 6 descriptions emphasize elements such as being whistleblowers and the like.


And 469 is "The Seeker", so there you go...Not that this is really an argument, but okay. 

6 being in here and now...? That's of course why they want to be _prepared_ for whatever projections on the future, or on others they anticipate in dread and seek to be "_a-head_" of. 



Naranjo said:


> Not only does he use the intellect for problem-solving, but he resorts to problem seeking as a way to feeling safe. In his hypervigilance, his paranoid character is on the look-out for problems; he is a trouble-shooter in regard to himself and has difficulty in accepting himself without problems. While there is hope in seeing oneself with problems—the hope of being able to solve them—there is also a trap in problem making that manifests, for instance, as an inability to go beyond the role of patient in the therapeutic process and a difficulty in just letting oneself be.


And with regard to 'effectivity'



Naranjo said:


> Not only is the ineffectualness or generalized problem with doing of the more timid type VI individuals a consequence of an excessive orientation to the abstract and theoretical, but seeking refuge in intellectual activity is also a consequence of fearful holding back, indirectness, vagueness, and “beating around the bush.”





Entropic said:


> You completely misunderstand this. It has nothing to do with talk, not even action, but it's about acknowledgement. Very different.


Acknowledgement is external validation/affirmation. ("token of due recognition""), which I would say is approval seeking ('moving toward' in Hornevian terms), rather than power seeking ('moving against'). 

Unless of course, I'm completely missing the point here.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

Vanguard said:


> certain things remain constant - namely Vaj's wall of text posts. Never change please, it's good to have this stability in such troubling times.


I think you should change your post back to its original contents. You know, the part where you addressed another user by her _real name_? I thought posting private details about people's lives was forbidden on the forums? Then again I haven't been on perc as much as I used to be. @_TreeBob_, is rule #5 still in effect? Or was it dropped from forum policy? I know the rules can change sometimes, so I just wanted to make sure my knowledge of the rules was up-to-date.


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

@Kollinhausin

Once you're done orchestrating your play, you might want to take a look at instinctual variants. They might explain something. I'd wager you're sp/so.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

> @_Vajra_ : Don't speak for me as a part of the line you're taking; I really want to see a resolution to this dispute, and I won't if it takes place over pm. By all means continue to reply here, although I think this post of mine will bring the exchange to an end.


 @_Kollinhausin_

Don't worry. You are not being spoken for. I have a generalized dislike of derails, on my threads and that of other people, independent of their own preferences. 
@_Entropic_



> @_Vajra_ You can call it what you want, but it just goes to show that you aren't listening to being receptive to the information being conveyed to you, lol.


Oh, you mean your deluded and magical claims about my astonishing omnipotence and single-handed alteration of forum "realities" by setting forth what defines 8? At least, you have a colourful imagination. 

So, tell me. Avoiding direct questions, floundering around deflecting and strawmanning my points- essentially playing the confused simpleton who needs the same thing bottle fed over and over again - seems to have become your M.O. throughout this exchange. Try harder. I'd like to believe you can do better. 

Clearly, you are attempting to keep your shit together this time around, as the stakes have been raised by your recent ban. 

A better way of going about that would be providing concrete examples of my "omnipotence", and even one example of the unrealistic archetype of 8 that I describe and peddle on the forum would be plenty. You haven't been able to provide that. Why? Because you pulled these gems out of your ass to stir shit, only to trip on your own sword. Now, you're trying to save face, and it's not working. 

Failing that you keep acting like a one trick pony by avoiding the crux of this discussion and playing dumb.

You're also starting to sound tired and disoriented, unfortunately. The steam has run out already.




> One would think you would be able to use another form of tactic by now, if the first one isn't working, and attempting to suggest I am the one who is bullying


Is comprehension proving a challenge today? I have, more than once, compared you to a sorry imitation of a paper tiger (look it up) and a fish out of water flip flopping on a deck. You are as much of a bully to me as a toothless chihuahua who tries and fails to nip at my heels. 

Just so you don't get your panties twisted in knots since English doesn't appear to be your first language (which is not a personal attack or an example of linguicism as it isn't mine either), I will have you know that I am not actually calling you a dog. Above phrases are idiomatic. Given your responses, I feel the need to provide information simplified enough for you to grasp without crawling around in circles. 



> (bullying who? Care to point out concrete examples? Are you being bullied because I point out a conceptual error in your reasoning? Then clearly people should never be able to have a theoretical disagreement since it would always fall under the line of bullying and you seem to be able to deal with it just fine, aren't you?)


Read above. You couldn't bully me, if you tried. In fact, it has historically been you, that has claimed bullying all over a disagreement. Haven't I chapped your ass numerous times by busting your loud and persistent claims you had been bullied when all that had taken place was a theoretical disagreement? Haven't I smacked your lapdogs who claim you were bullied when all that happened was that you started shit and then interpreted a disagreement as bullying?

It is you who has repeatedly painted me as a bully, and I told you that you can go ahead and do that. You just won't get to have your cake, and eat it too.  

To address your query, you are only a bully to people who don't confront your sorry bullshit. You're only a bully to people of the type that share they are depressed, only for you to gang up on them. You're a bully to people around whom you can get away with name calling and personal insults, however unwarranted, which is a great sign of insecurity if ever there was one. All of this speaks to the weak and cowardly nature of your actions. It took you years to address me directly. And when you finally did, you erupted into paroxysms of self-victimizing blubbering and the most impotent hissy fit I have seen in a while.

Surely, your ornate descriptions of me, demonstrate who it is that you keep reacting to and calling a bully. Grow up, and resign yourself to the knowledge that your buffoonery doesn't impress, and your antics, around me, will fail to have the desired impact. 



> is just again, an outright slander guiled under pretty choices of words, something you are very prone of doing, btw.


Again, are you having a bad...reading day? I have defined slander to you three times, and yet you keep misapplying the word like delusionally peddling your misinterpretation will make it true. 

If I can supply corroboration of your trolling and harassment, of course it is not slander which means fabrications and speculations amounting to lies, as all of this is easily searchable. You just returned after being banned for a month for harassment and trolling across multiple forums. Your recent exploits are common knowledge, and you haven't been slandered. 

Do you seriously want me to look up and post each of your dozen infraction posts and your ban post? I hope not. 



> I am pointing out something you have done in the past yes, and something you keep doing and it is something I take issue with, though my initial post was of course not just directed at you but also to Quang, because he too, did the same as you (as did a couple of others but I did not bother to mention those though I definitely could have had, but I didn't see it as a potential problem until it reached the point where Quang's first post happened).


And, I am pointing out what you keep doing every time you attempt to 'call me out' by stirring shit of your own accord. 



> I think this particular way of talking about type 8 needs to be addressed and so I did, and I also explained to you in great detail, why I think it needs to be addressed and what issue I take with it.


Similarly, I explained to you, in greater detail, why your criticisms and ad hominems, however contrived, comprised nothing more than strawmen and red herrings.

You have not addressed either my query or my critique of your strawman of my post. As I said, you are playing the avoidance game. Surely, you don't think you will tire me out or gain any kind of upper hand here by ducking and weaving like a consummate novice.  



> You on the other hand, is very invested in trying to undermine my character.


Now, let's recap, since your memory is shot. 

It was you who claimed I silence people on the forums and fuel social rejection and bullying. Historically, it is you who have compared me to demons and genocide perpetrators (lol), as I've pointed out twice. It is you who have repeatedly called me a bully, after stirring shit yourself, as usual, and gone on to make emotive appeals to others to do the same, all of which is adorable. It's obvious that it is you who paint and see me as a threat, and make insinuations, that you haven't thus far been able to back up with even one example. 

It is you who started the blame game on this thread, by tagging me, and then elaborating with a thinly veiled attempt to, as always, call me a bully. How about you break the monotony, and learn another trick? The cherry on top is when I play back, you recede. 

Surely then, in turn, laying out your history of trolling and harassment (of other members), doesn't mean I am invested in undermining the nebulous blob of dat thing resembling a character; it means that I am making a discussion relevant point about your hypocrisy and spineless actions, while still being objective and _generous_ enough to concede to your few points that I deem valid. 

Still confused?



> Again, still waiting for that PM.


I didn't know self-proclaimed internet 'villains' were that shy.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

answer each question on a scale from 0 (that's not me at all) to 5 (that's TOTALLY me!) and put your scores over 50 for each section.*


Social
1) Generally, I positively associate with the idea of being a part of something larger than myself. Though I may find it either overwhelming, because of my astute awareness of what lies beyond my own interests, or inspiring. 5
2) I am very aware of the impact my decision will have on others and can be quite attuned to their reactions and needs. I read people well. 5
3) Being recognized or valued by my peers or community, for my contributions, is important to me. 5
4) I tend to have strong opinions on social change and/or social constructs and trends. 5
5) I am aware of not only my own relationships, but also power structures and the nature of bonds between other people. I have a deep understanding of interconnectedness between groups and people who comprise them. In other words, I am good at perceiving the many facets of how a group works within its context and outside of it. I easily pick up on how I fit into the social hierarchy, whether or not I approve of it. 5
6) I am socially aware, but I can also be reserved and socially distant. 3
7) If I gravitate towards group (s)/institution (s)/gathering(s)of my choosing, I can be quite involved with championing the values and goals of this grouping. 3
8) I tend to keep track of current events, even when not required to for my career performance. 5
9) At my worst I am either strongly conformist or excessively anti-society/counter culture. At my best, my relationships with others are ones of healthy interdependence, and I may be inclined to strong individual leadership or display deep commitment in establishing teamwork and collaboration. 1
10) "no man is an island." Everything is part of an interconnected web, like it or not. 4



Self Preservation
1) I am acutely aware of my physical safety (though sometimes I will choose to do something dangerous anyway) 2
2) when I go to a party, I immediately notice the temperature, the smells and where the food is 1
3) I am very health conscious 5
4) financial/career, physical and/or romantic security are very important to me 3
5) if I have an injury or a health related problem, I typically notice quickly 1
6) I tend to save a decent amount of my money 3
7) predictability is important to me. the sooner I can know about things in advance, the better. 4
8) when I'm under stress, things like health, finances, hygiene or other things that I normally stay on top of start to slip, sometimes severely. 4
9) I'm acutely aware of cause and effect, particularly when the potential consequences are dire. if my friends listened to me more, they'd end up making a lot less stupid mistakes 3
10) physical comfort is important to me. I can get distracted by things like uncomfortable seats, high humidity or bodily pain when I'm trying to enjoy time with my friends 4



Sexual
1) I have an addictive personality 4
2) "if it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all" 5
3) people generally think I'm "too much". in lots of situations, I feel like it's expected of me to tone myself down considerably (which I will either refuse to do or do so begrudgingly) 2
4) my energy is either "on" or "off". when I'm in the presence of someone who I vibe with my mind does an internal "YES! FINALLY!" and I try to start a conversation with that person 5
5) I can be obsessive with my love interests. I am either clingy or have to try very hard not to be 1
6) I feel like a part of me is missing and am looking for someone to complete me. at times, this creates a raw sort of longing that can lead to emotional volatility 1
7) I have strong impulses (particularly with regards to relationships). I frequently wish I didn't have to be so damn careful 4
8) if I'm not in a relationship, I feel old. I don't know how it's possible for people to be happy without passionate intimacy, because being without it makes me feel dead 2
9) I only feel alive when indulging my passions. sometimes this causes me to neglect other areas of my life 5
10) people either love me or hate me, but either way, my personality grabs attention, whether I want it to or not 5



*So: (41/50)=(0.82)
Sp: (30/50)=(0.6)
Sx: (34/50)=(0.68)

I read about these, as well; I'm So without a shadow of a doubt. That's reflected in my uninformed opinion on the variants in the other thread I made in this forum. I am not sure about the Sx and Sp so much.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> I'm glad that whenever I have a chance to come to this forum, certain things remain constant - namely Vaj's wall of text posts. Never change please, it's good to have this stability in such troubling times.
> 
> To contribute so I'm not labelled a trolling fake-ate, OP - enneagram is not a quick fix; if you don't want to spend time in introspection, I'd bail. It's a lot of effort and since it's tied to your identity - to your very sense of self, it can't be answered quickly.
> 
> ...


:laughing: 
227 posts in 6 years time, I'd say at least 10% of that is dedicated to @_Vajra_ one way or the other. 
It's way too obvious to call those pop-ups 'chance'. 

You take lurking to a whole new level.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> And 469 is "The Seeker", so there you go...Not that this is really an argument, but okay.


Okay? So why even bring it up? The 6 obviously still play a role in how the name was chosen. 



> 6 being in here and now...? That's of course why they want to be _prepared_ for whatever projections on the future, or on others they anticipate in dread and seek to be "_a-head_" of.



? I have zero idea what this is in relation to. At all. 



> And with regard to 'effectivity'
> 
> Acknowledgement is external validation/affirmation. ("token of due recognition""), which I would say is approval seeking ('moving toward' in Hornevian terms), rather than power seeking ('moving against').
> 
> Unless of course, I'm completely missing the point here.


Yeah, you are, since, duh, acknowledgement is an intrinsic human need. For everyone. Not that this tactic of yours is any new either - you always attempt to reconstruct what people think or say so it fits you. 

You know, you can keep quoting Naranjo (why only Naranjo? As if he's the sole author on type 6, why not go cite some other source you think fits?) and acting passive-aggressive and trying to shove a particular perspective of me, but it does not make it so more than your interpretation of my actions which frankly, seeing how you are so keen to shoving this not just on me, but on everyone, says way more about you and your own disposition than it does, mine. 

You think you understand type 6 but you clearly don't. I've told you to go speak to a 6 so you gain some actual experiential understanding of how 6s experiences their world, instead of doing, what do you now, always observing from armchair's length and think you are being critical in your analysis when you lack the most fundamental and crucial aspect to understanding: direct experience. Not that this is just a fault of you course, but this entire forum, but you are definitely, more so than most others, lacking the the insight and awareness of how this greatly diminishes your understanding and application of the theory in order to properly recognize and identify the type. 

This becomes blatantly obvious in how you think the inner mental disposition in how a 6 understands their place in the world is so seemingly different between phobic and counterphobic, even though this distinction of type 6 is extremely arbitrary to begin since few 6s are very clear cases of being either phobic or counterphobic. Most 6s possess, just like any human, an ability to adapt to their environment and employ various strategies depending on their current circumstance and can therefore in some parts of their life adopt a counterphobic attitude and others, a phobic, or go from being overly phobic to counterphobic. If you actually knew a 6 and had spoken to any 6 in great detail where they recount their lived experiences to you, this would become blatantly obvious. You do not, however, compared to myself, possess this experience of having lived experiences recounted to you, so this idea of the 6 that you have is simply a myth and a part of the mythology on this forum of how type 8 used to be treated and is still partially treated. 

So this conflation leads you to even greatly misunderstand type 8 to the point you actually outright deny my personal accounts of my current lived experience in favor of your own version of how I should experience it in order to fit the image you are trying to shove on me, by reshaping and twisting its actual underlying meaning to something that is no longer recognizable by me, since this is a mere fabrication of who I am in your own psyche. However, re-interpreting my own actions through your own distorted lens only suggests how you yourself see reality and may not necessarily say much at all about how I see mine. 

This is of course not just something you have done against me, but also that of others, though the extent on which you follow me around and insert these passive-aggressive remarks over the course of many months and many different threads of course begs the question, what is it about me that bugs you so much? 

All this ultimately says and shows is that you don't know how to recognize either type because you not only lack understanding and knowledge of how the types, but you also lack direct personal experience through actual interaction with people who are these types operate both internally and externally, to actually know how to separate and distinguish them apart. That you cannot seemingly be able to conceptualize my actions through any other lens than your own interpretation of my motives, at the end of the day is only suggestive of how you yourself are motivated and how deeply entrenched you are in this particular way of viewing reality. You could instead, of course, just fucking ask me how I see things and why I do the things I do, but no, you rather maintain your armchair approach. I know who I am, but I am not so sure you know yourself as well as you think you do.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> Lol, but seriously, I genuinely want to get the most out of typology; my concern with Enneagram is that it might not be a precise enough system to be useful. I don't buy the spiritual bits; I don't believe in spiritual mystical stuff at all. So if it's useful, then it should be possible for a reasonable person to identify themselves in it relatively easily.
> 
> Otherwise, with all the talk about 'deep knowledge' and meditation; that will just allow you to fall victim to the Forer effect.


Going by what you said above, I suspect, you probably won't get on very well with Enneagram, as it seems to be _all _of these things (spiritual, mystical, etc), and more. That's no criticism towards you; it's just that I've seen other people with a similar mindset struggle with this stuff, and even I admit, I take most of it with a pinch of salt. The most I see it as is an interesting tool/framework that can be used for introspection. But there are many different ways one might go about this; Enneagram is just one method that seems to work more for some than it does others (and some reject it altogether). I will agree with people that mentioned that introspection is a central aspect of the theory, and, without it, a person will probably struggle to get very far with it at all. 

If you are looking for some kind of precise/accurate categorization system then I'm afraid Enneagram is not it.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> :laughing:
> 227 posts in 6 years time, I'd say at least 10% of that is dedicated to @_Vajra_ one way or the other.
> It's way too obvious to call those pop-ups 'chance'.
> 
> You take lurking to a whole new level.


What is the reason that Vajra attracts entrenched opposition?


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Remcy said:


> @_Kollinhausin_
> 
> Once you're done orchestrating your play, you might want to take a look at instinctual variants. They might explain something. I'd wager you're sp/so.


Lol. This isn't a play, it's opening a much-needed window into the inner workings of Enneagram forum. This forum is way more intense and continuous than the MBTI forum! But maybe that's because MBTI attracts so many one-and-done posters. 

It's more like the Critical Thinking and Philosophy forum (That's where I belong usually). Only more personal. 

But why would I be Sp first? I'm curious.


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> But why would I be Sp first? I'm curious.


Mostly your practical mindset. Like your approach towards Enneagram - all you want to find out if it's useful somehow. Bruce Lee summed up the 8w9 sp/so approach quite accurately with the quote "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it." At least to me it seems you're doing just that - evaluating the usefulness of the system, and you're willing to ditch it if proves to be of no use.

The social variant is definitely there as well - your story of the Honors representative showed that you're aware of the social conventions, but even in that situation you took an approach that was practical instead of taking the option that was commonly though to be good (i.e playing along just like everyone else).


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Entropic said:


> Okay? So why even bring it up? The 6 obviously still play a role in how the name was chosen.


If you insist, I think Holy Truth has more to do with 'undivided', which relates more to subject/object duality, to individuality (as being discreet undivided entities) and personal freedom or 'sovereignty' (undivided lust if you will), which explains both labels for 'Maverick' (8w7) or 'Bear' (8w9), which has no relevance to your perception of 'Truth'.

And if you will, on an experiential non-dual level, which the Holy Ideas refer to you can think of something like this, (and relate this to Maitri's description of 8's identification with the physical realm).



Vipassana said:


> This is where Vipassana starts helping us. There are sensations throughout the body, from head to feet. One feels those sensations, and is asked not to react to them. Just observe; observe objectively, without identifying yourself with the sensations. You observe this structure that initially appears to be so solid, the entire physical structure at the level of sensation. Observing, observing you will reach the stage when you experience that the entire physical structure is nothing but subatomic particles: throughout the body, nothing but kalapas (subatomic particles). And even these tiniest subatomic particles are not solid. They are mere vibration, just wavelets. The Buddha's words become clear by experience: Sabbo pajjalito loko, sabbo loko pakampito. The entire universe is nothing but combustion and vibration. As you experience it yourself you experience that the entire material world is nothing but vibration. We have to experience the ocean of infinite waves surging within, the river of inner sensations flowing within, the eternal dance of the countless vibrations within every atom of the body. We have to witness our continuously changing nature. All of this is happening at an extremely subtle level. These kalapas (subatomic particles) according to the Buddha, are in a state of perpetual change or flux. They are nothing but a stream of energies, just like the light of a candle or an electric bulb. The body (as we call it), is not an entity as it seems to be, but is a continuum of matter and life-force coexisting


Compare that with Holy Idea according to Almaas:



Holy Truth said:


> So according to the Idea of Holy Truth, reality, when seen objectively, has no divisions in it. It exists, it is now, and it is nondual. There is no me, no you, no other, no universe separate from God; no universe separate from the Void; no you and Essence, no personality and Essence; no physical body and soul—all these distinctions are illusions and are not ultimately real. There is only one thing, and it cannot even be called “one” because if you call it one, you are comparing it to two, and it is not one in contrast to two. It is nondual, an indivisible existence, no matter how you look at it or think about it. While the different teachings may emphasize different qualities of this unity, seeing it from the perspective of love or awareness, for example, the assertion here is that fundamental to reality is the fact of unity. All the religions assert this sense of the all-inclusiveness of reality. Another way of saying it is that God is everywhere, omnipresent. Holy Truth is the way that the teaching of the Enneagram of Holy Ideas expresses this understanding.





Entropic said:


> ? I have zero idea what this is in relation to. At all.


I guess you'd need to be present in here and now, or at least have a notion of it, to understand its significance. 



Entropic said:


> Yeah, you are, since, duh, acknowledgement is an intrinsic human need. For everyone. Not that this tactic of yours is any new either - you always attempt to reconstruct what people think or say so it fits you.
> 
> You know, you can keep quoting Naranjo (why only Naranjo? As if he's the sole author on type 6, why not go cite some other source you think fits?) and acting passive-aggressive and trying to shove a particular perspective of me, but it does not make it so more than your interpretation of my actions which frankly, seeing how you are so keen to shoving this not just on me, but on everyone, says way more about you and your own disposition than it does, mine.
> 
> ...


You met an actual living Six? You mean in the physical realm? That's just...wow. 
Sure, I just came out of an egg, to use an expression in my country. Can't believe you actually try to pride yourself with that experience, apparently assuming living like a hermit is the normal way to go. For you I suppose it is. I meet people, and also have managed relations some of which lasting 20 years and longer. I prefer to connect with people on an emotional level, and I can in part because I can be vulnerable. 

There's significant difference between counter-phobic and phobic, even when they belong to the same type. But then again, you didn't even get the notion of counter-type, right? I can also link to your post/thread where you didn't understand what Maitri meant with 'identification with the physical realm' of type 8. Which was less than 4 months ago so please stop pretending to be an expert on this type and try and excercise a little humility. I don't need to know you but your lack of understanding of these notions or concepts says enough about you and how profound your understanding of personality is (or isn't) or the spiritual realm. 

Unlike you I didn't need Maitri nor Naranjo to explain anything about myself, and I knew that even before he wrote Character & Neurosis. So yeah you can depreciate Naranjo, but I'd say he possesses a range of qualities and traits that you don't possess, let alone are able to recognize and appreciate its significance and wisdom. 

Mind you, I didn't even need to use words like 'blatant', 'fucking' etc. to impress.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Remcy said:


> Mostly your practical mindset. Like your approach towards Enneagram - all you want to find out if it's useful somehow. Bruce Lee summed up the 8w9 sp/so approach quite accurately with the quote "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it." At least to me it seems you're doing just that - evaluating the usefulness of the system, and you're willing to ditch it if proves to be of no use.
> 
> The social variant is definitely there as well - your story of the Honors representative showed that you're aware of the social conventions, but even in that situation you took an approach that was practical instead of taking the option that was commonly though to be good (i.e playing along just like everyone else).


All that is true. But the Sp questions relating to personal safety, money, and so on don't ring true at all. I don't think of threats to my security at all; I live in a law-abiding country and anyone who tries can get a job; what reason have I to be concerned for my personal safety? There are so many more important things for me to think about. Like my areas of interest.

The Sp questions seem to describe my probably Sp and definitely ISFJ mother. And the rest of my family to a lesser extent; but I'm always the one who pays zero attention to the weather, ignores reports of ice, generally ignores my surroundings, and doesn't prepare for things except to improvise if necessary in the moment. I don't pay attention when I drive except when I force myself to; when I developed a minor health problem I didn't notice (although I do notice when I'm sick); I just don't see that my personal safety or personal affairs are an issue; in fact, if personal matters were all that existed, I think I would die of boredom because my whole philosophy is about transcending petty personal perspectives so that I can concentrate my resources on what matters. 

I want Enneagram for my personal use, that's true, but my personal capabilities are only important if they are used in a greater context (I see that as So).

Now, if there are SJish Sps and non-SJish Sp, and the descriptions are written for SJs, then that could change the situation.

I'm a Te Ni user . . .


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> All that is true. But the Sp questions relating to personal safety, money, and so on don't ring true at all. I don't think of threats to my security at all; I live in a law-abiding country and anyone who tries can get a job; what reason have I to be concerned for my personal safety? There are so many more important things for me to think about. Like my areas of interest.
> 
> The Sp questions seem to describe my probably Sp and definitely ISFJ mother. And the rest of my family to a lesser extent; but I'm always the one who pays zero attention to the weather, ignores reports of ice, generally ignores my surroundings, and doesn't prepare for things except to improvise if necessary in the moment. I don't pay attention when I drive except when I force myself to; when I developed a minor health problem I didn't notice (although I do notice when I'm sick); I just don't see that my personal safety or personal affairs are an issue; in fact, if personal matters were all that existed, I think I would die of boredom because my whole philosophy is about transcending petty personal perspectives so that I can concentrate my resources on what matters.
> 
> ...


You don't take into account the 8 tendency for fixating on their goals. That's when everything irrelevant gets blocked out and the brain can focus on what really matters. That's why you might seem like you're on auto-drive in a lot cases, like driving a car - the instincts of an 8 will warn if there's something really happening. I do the same when I'm driving or walking, and I'm an 8w9 sp/so. But in situations where that awareness of my surroundings and 8 fixation is really needed, the Sp side will shine through.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

What makes you feel at your most vulnerable? 
How does vulnerability manifest in you? 
What kind of emotions and sensations does it bring?


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Remcy said:


> You don't take into account the 8 tendency for fixating on their goals. That's when everything irrelevant gets blocked out and the brain can focus on what really matters. That's why you might seem like you're on auto-drive in a lot cases, like driving a car - the instincts of an 8 will warn if there's something really happening. I do the same when I'm driving or walking, and I'm an 8w9 sp/so. But in situations where that awareness of my surroundings and 8 fixation is really needed, the Sp side will shine through.


I see that this is a multi-faceted question, so I'll bear what you're saying in mind. It's certainly true that when there is a real threat I pay attention.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> What makes you feel at your most vulnerable?
> How does vulnerability manifest in you?
> What kind of emotions and sensations does it bring?


1. If I am being treated as an object with definite and static qualities, instead of as an actor with undefined and dynamic qualities.

2. I avoid showing it unless it is a deliberate tactic. I learned by experience that if you look like the strong one in a conflict, you will be blamed. So it's against my instincts to want to look vulnerable, but if I was in a conflict with a woman, for example, I have a habit of first trying to avoid it, and second alerting everyone that a conflict is going on and I want to resolve it peacefully. I can't make myself look like a victim, but I have to make sure I can't be seen as an aggressor. 

This is not meant to be sexist; I think it's a natural thing to transfer a perception of a physical power disparity over into a social power disparity. I just have to preempt that sometimes.

I don't go around provoking conflicts with women or men; just the opposite. That's foolish and a waste of time. This is only my defense mechanism.

3. Unpleasant ones in the case of asking for help if it is a humiliating kind of weakness; but if its not humiliating then I don't mind. I mind asking for loans; I've never done it. I don't mind asking for advice from people who should be able to offer it, although I rarely listen to the advice, unfortunately. 

If we are going to go into the realm of emotional vulnerability, I don't do that at all. I only ever had 'romantic' feelings for someone once, and that was 8-10 years ago, just a hormonal puberty thing. I told myself 'never again' to that kind of irrational loss of control, and it's never happened again.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

You aren't an 8. You're a 1.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> What is the reason that Vajra attracts entrenched opposition?


I don't know why someone appears to be obsessed over it. 
My educated guess would be it's because of her balls. 

But...let's not exaggerate it. 
The entrenched opposition I mean. 
:dry: Not her balls.

I find her quite endearing, affectionate, loyal, and sexy.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Emerson said:


> You aren't an 8. You're a 1.


Okay, another gut type. That seems plausible. I do hate corruption, but what other than that makes you say 1?


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Kollinhausin said:


> If we are going to go into the realm of emotional vulnerability, I don't do that at all. I only ever had 'romantic' feelings for someone once, and that was 8-10 years ago, just a hormonal puberty thing. I told myself 'never again' to that kind of irrational loss of control, and it's never happened again.


A lot of this sounds strongly 8-like but this snippet and the part I underlined actually remind me strongly of type Six, not even just the counterphobic kind. Because, while all the types in the reactivity triad including mine, are extremely resistant to any form of control, I feel like type Six is the one with the biggest issues when it comes to 'emotional control' even if the other person isn't controlling in the slightest. I can speak from personal experience here.

Type Eights want to control their environment and it's still a matter of power, type Fours crave control of themselves and their image, as it has to reflect them at the core, while seeking emotional intensity and even chaos but type Six? Sixes live in a world of logic, facts, data, doubt and questioning. Many core Sixes want closeness and intimacy and yet it scares them as it's something that eludes any logical and provable realm, they fear their emotions, they fear being controlled, they fear the fleeting nature of feelings, they fear abandonment and betrayal so they look obsessively for external advice, for reassurance, for fallacies and incongruities.

It's not unusual for a Six to mentally go back to every conversation, every piece of evidence, to seek consistency in their partner where there can't be any as emotions aren't a static matter, they're personal, subjective, deep, hidden, fluid. An extremely emotionally deep partner can be a frightening thing, especially if their main instinct isn't even a sexual one (so/sp Sixes will seek lots of advice everywhere, start hitting and running) and any trace of feeling, especially if intimate and of Fi nature will be seen as confusing.

Can Eights feel the same? Perhaps. I don't have any direct experience, maybe my grandfather but to me Se-dominance is very 8 like in nature, still I think that this kind of behavior isn't alien to many types but it's fundamentally a type 6's trademark. Logic = safety, emotions = fear. Just some food for thought.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

This is my favorite music; what I like about it is the idea of a common enterprise carried out by a small group of determined people (yes the sailors didn't care but the music has them all singing so i ignore that part) with earth-shatteringly enormous consequences.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> Okay, another gut type. That seems plausible. I do hate corruption, but what other than that makes you say 1?



First it was a guess but the more I think about it the more it fits. You're clearly driven to be a perfectionist and see the outside world around you change for the better (your comments about introspection previously) 

On top of that there is something very much 1ish, you're trying to reach a total agreement that you are what you are with all of us around this forum. If you were an 8 I don't think that would be much of a thing. Unless you were doing this to prove you are an 8. But that doesn't seem 8ish, it doesn't seem like an effective use of your time, if you were an 8 you wouldn't care that others didn't think you were. 

If that didn't make sense I'll edit it for you. I kinda stream of conscienced it.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> Okay, another gut type. That seems plausible. I do hate corruption, but what other than that makes you say 1?


Why do you hate corruption?


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> A lot of this sounds strongly 8-like but this snippet and the part I underlined actually remind me strongly of type Six, not even just the counterphobic kind. Because, while all the types in the reactivity triad including mine, are extremely resistant to any form of control, I feel like type Six is the one with the biggest issues when it comes to 'emotional control' even if the other person isn't controlling in the slightest. I can speak from personal experience here.


I don't like many positive emotions. From a very young age I did my best to restrict them. I didn't and don't want to show excitement or enthusiasm or express positive emotions in words. Maintaining emotional control is very important to me.



Hotaru said:


> Type Eights want to control their environment and it's still a matter of power, type Fours crave control of themselves and their image, as it has to reflect them at the core, while seeking emotional intensity and even chaos but type Six? Sixes live in a world of logic, facts, data, doubt and questioning. Many core Sixes want closeness and intimacy and yet it scares them as it's something that eludes any logical and provable realm, they fear their emotions, they fear being controlled, they fear the fleeting nature of feelings, they fear abandonment and betrayal so they look obsessively for external advice, for reassurance, for fallacies and incongruities.


I wouldn't say I am afraid of the emotions themselves so much as the consequences of having them. If I was experiencing love as an emotion, for example, I would lose clarity of judgement and objectivity, and I would leave myself wide open for betrayal. For example, what if I were to be divorced after many years? I would have lost everything put into the relationship for years, and after completely trusting someone to be betrayed would be unbearable. And they wouldn't even see it that way; there are any number of ways people change over the years. So I am afraid of breaking down and not being able to recover if I put all my eggs in one basket because it seems foolish to trust one person that much.

That said, I expect to overcome those objections; I'm just going to be really careful.

This does seem pretty 6ish, actually.



Hotaru said:


> It's not unusual for a Six to mentally go back to every conversation, every piece of evidence, to seek consistency in their partner where there can't be any as emotions aren't a static matter, they're personal, subjective, deep, hidden, fluid. An extremely emotionally deep partner can be a frightening thing, especially if their main instinct isn't even a sexual one (so/sp Sixes will seek lots of advice everywhere, start hitting and running) and any trace of feeling, especially if intimate and of Fi nature will be seen as confusing.


No, I don't think it works that way for me, though. I either trust someone or I don't trust them. Someone is well-intentioned or not. I don't care about surface level emotions changing; they don't have to feel the same. That's unreasonable. But what can't change is going back on your word. There's a huge difference between having a bad day but still being 'with' me, vs. being against me. 

For example, I know an emotionally deep ENFP I don't trust, even though she's a close relative. The reason is that I know deep down she's totally unreliable. She might say stuff that she feels at the time, but deep down she can't be relied on to stick to something because I'm not part of her 'permanent feelings', whatever those may be.

By contrast, I know an emotionally deep xNFP who is unrelated to me, but who I trust to discuss all sorts of things because I know she is reliable; at whatever level of depth we're at relationally, she won't 'break' the contract for that level. 

I could get people wrong, but I have rarely been wrong on knowing which people are reliable and which are not. I've liked unreliable ones against my instincts, and it's never paid off.



Hotaru said:


> Can Eights feel the same? Perhaps. I don't have any direct experience, maybe my grandfather but to me Se-dominance is very 8 like in nature, still I think that this kind of behavior isn't alien to many types but it's fundamentally a type 6's trademark. Logic = safety, emotions = fear. Just some food for thought.


I have a lot of Se-dominance in my family. Pretty sure my father is an Se Ti dominant 8, my Aunt an Se Ti dominant 7, and my grandmother an Se Fi dominant 8.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Emerson said:


> First it was a guess but the more I think about it the more it fits. You're clearly driven to be a perfectionist and see the outside world around you change for the better (your comments about introspection previously)
> 
> On top of that there is something very much 1ish, you're trying to reach a total agreement that you are what you are with all of us around this forum. If you were an 8 I don't think that would be much of a thing. Unless you were doing this to prove you are an 8. But that doesn't seem 8ish, it doesn't seem like an effective use of your time, if you were an 8 you wouldn't care that others didn't think you were.
> 
> If that didn't make sense I'll edit it for you. I kinda stream of conscienced it.


 If something is true, then everyone should be able to see it. That's the line I'm taking here.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> If something is true, then everyone should be able to see it. That's the line I'm taking here.


But that has almost never been the case with anything. We'd have homogeneous opinions and shit yo


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Why do you hate corruption?


I hate corruption because . . . I hate to see people putting on airs and elevating themselves as better than others, when they had in many cases little to do with their own success. Communism has a strong ideological appeal for me; I don't believe in it because it doesn't work and it won't succeed anyway; I've given up on the idea that the world can be better than it is; things are moving in a certain direction and no single individual or group of individuals are going to be able to change it. 

The most an individual can do is to accelerate the direction we're already going in.

So my feelings on corruption are subjective, and I accept they are invalid. But I still act on them sometimes even though they are logically unsound.


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> No, I don't think it works that way for me, though. I either trust someone or I don't trust them. Someone is well-intentioned or not. I don't care about surface level emotions changing; they don't have to feel the same. That's unreasonable. But what can't change is going back on your word. There's a huge difference between having a bad day but still being 'with' me, vs. being against me.
> 
> For example, I know an emotionally deep ENFP I don't trust, even though she's a close relative. The reason is that I know deep down she's totally unreliable. She might say stuff that she feels at the time, but deep down she can't be relied on to stick to something because I'm not part of her 'permanent feelings', whatever those may be.
> 
> ...


(Just paging @katherine8, please ignore. She's the creator of tritype theory and would probable be interested in this post and thread.)


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Emerson said:


> But that has almost never been the case with anything. We'd have homogeneous opinions and shit yo


It's the case within specific knowledge communities. PerC is a specific knowledge community.

I don't demand that 'the world' agree, just that all the users who are interacting with each other agree. I hate to see mistyping in any typology forum; it creates confusion and calls into question the entire system for the following reason: "If he doesn't know his type even though he had those plausible reasons, how do I know I know mine?" and "I had plausible reasons for that mistype; I have plausible reasons now. So how can I say that this is a correct typing?" 

At the same time, if everyone agreed I was one type but I didn't agree, I wouldn't change my mind. Basically, I'm pushing the boundaries as far as I can until something gives. It's experimentation that helps me learn. 

I'll know when I know what type I am, and it hasn't happened yet.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> I hate corruption because . . . I hate to see people putting on airs and elevating themselves as better than others, when they had in many cases little to do with their own success. Communism has a strong ideological appeal for me; I don't believe in it because it doesn't work and it won't succeed anyway; I've given up on the idea that the world can be better than it is; things are moving in a certain direction and no single individual or group of individuals are going to be able to change it.
> 
> The most an individual can do is to accelerate the direction we're already going in.
> 
> So my feelings on corruption are subjective, and I accept they are invalid. But I still act on them sometimes even though they are logically unsound.


Can you explain more why that is corrupt to you? I just don't want to make wrong assumptions.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Can you explain more why that is corrupt to you? I just don't want to make wrong assumptions.


To me it's self-evident. It's hypocrisy, so it's dishonest. If someone is willing to argue honestly over the ethics of their actions and their position, then we can talk. If they are pretending and hiding behind obfuscation, then they are clearly in the wrong, there is no question. 

So corruption and hypocrisy is inherently cowardly and unethical. It isn't even possible to advance an argument for it because you've conceded the moral high ground the moment you lie (and corruption is a form of dishonesty) by saying that your actions can't stand up to close examination.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> The 468 archetype is called the truth-teller, for example, and it is because of the 6 being in there and how the 6 is attuned to seeking and exposing the truth of things. I can't think of any explicit description I've read, but you will find that many 6 descriptions emphasize elements such as being whistleblowers and the like.
> 
> 
> .


so you were making things up and talking out your ass.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Vajra said:


> Y.



sigh. can we all take a big step and grow up?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> To me it's self-evident. It's hypocrisy, so it's dishonest. If someone is willing to argue honestly over the ethics of their actions and their position, then we can talk. If they are pretending and hiding behind obfuscation, then they are clearly in the wrong, there is no question.
> 
> So corruption and hypocrisy is inherently cowardly and unethical. It isn't even possible to advance an argument for it because you've conceded the moral high ground the moment you lie (and corruption is a form of dishonesty) by saying that your actions can't stand up to close examination.


So, hypothetically, if someone is open and honest about personal gain or interest, would you call that corrupt?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> I don't like many positive emotions. From a very young age I did my best to restrict them. I didn't and don't want to show excitement or enthusiasm or express positive emotions in words. Maintaining emotional control is very important to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say I am afraid of the emotions themselves so much as the consequences of having them. If I was experiencing love as an emotion, for example, I would lose clarity of judgement and objectivity, and I would leave myself wide open for betrayal. .


that is not 8. 1 would believe. 6 maybe.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

An interesting tidbit for @Hotaru and whoever else was thinking of 6; one story I can tell is about the two 6 types I think I know. I think both are unhealthy. 

They are both ESTJ (Te Si), and at first I thought I didn't care for them because of that, but then I met two other ESTJs that I liked, so that wasn't it.

They are what I think of as type 6. One is very friendly, always trying to make connections, and acts like he's honored to talk to you. But as soon as I met him I got the idea into my head that he was just trying to make connections because he was afraid, he didn't really care about anyone in the room but himself, and I thought less of him for it.

The difference between this ESTJ putative phobic 6 and an unhealthy ENTJ 3 is that I perceive one of them as afraid, and the other as just kind of hollow. I can't find someone who seems afraid to be a respect-worthy opponent, and I don't want to associate with them. I don't want to deal with them. Whereas an unhealthy ENTJ 3 would be an opponent worthy of respect.

The other one is ferociously aggressive for a professional man; my ISFP brother thinks he's kind of scary because he's unstable; if you made him mad he might lose control. He's not uneducated or anything, but he's short and acts self-conscious about it; he's really fit and exercises a lot, and talks big about his knowledge of judo and self-defense tactics. He tries to bring it into his conversations ("I'll show you how to kill someone using xyz punch") not psychopathically, but like a little boy play-acting as a tough guy. 

One time we were in conversation, and I listened impassively as he did these kinds of antics, and the longer he went on with no impressed reaction from me the more outrageous he got. He eventually got to the point of telling me that his philosophy in life when someone got in his way was just to elbow them out of the way and step on them, and said some other things in that line. 

His whole approach is to say "I'm the man", but he so obviously isn't "the man"; he's a wannabe. His abilities have to be taken seriously; it's _him _who can't be taken seriously. He's weak, or he wouldn't be projecting strength.

By contrast, the unhealthy 8 I've known was irritable, aggressive in a reactive way, and would bite you if you got too close. Like a dog. 

I just don't have respect for people who are so insecure; perhaps if I knew a healthy type 6 it would be different. 

But those guys and guys like them are the model of what I avoid being in life; I don't say something unless I can back it up, I don't list my accomplishments off to people because I want my presence to speak for itself, and I never play a tough guy. All of that feels weak to me when I see it in others, so I would never do it myself.

So, in my own life I've observed both types of 6 (I think) as well as 8, and I have taken to heart that to be an unhealthy phobic or counterphobic 6 is cowardly, and to be an unhealthy 8 is to be poked and prodded like an animal, manipulated by your predictable reactions. 

I don't want to be any of those things. Which possibly could indicate that they are my greatest fear or something, but I want to say no.

It's possible I mistyped these people.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> So, hypothetically, if someone is open and honest about personal gain or interest, would you call that corrupt?


No. It would depend somewhat on context, but generally speaking no.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Just want to say I think this thread is hilarious.

It's like there's a "standard" interpretation of type on this forum. If someone shit-stirs on about being an 8, suddenly language becomes all important "*gasp* you used the word disprove!" despite the fact that we can all agree (I hope), typing by such stereotypical keywords alone is highly circumstantial and prone to failure. 

_Motivations._ We type by_ motivations_. Does anyone know the real motivation for creating this thread? The OP does. None of the rest of us can claim to. He may have done it to "prove" something. He may have done it for other reasons entirely, to which we are not privy. Nonetheless, it's as though raising such a topic automatically fits the OP into a certain category of thought. We wish.

My first thought, as soon as I saw the title, was this. I could easily see this thread as a desire to shake loose the social power hierarchies, to question assumptions, to poke fun at everyone. I could easily see the OP laughing behind the keyboard at how utterly predictable this is.. Everyone's spent hours out of the last 2 days, writing up 15 long-winded pages... and all anyone has succeeded in doing is to reveal how entrenched thought and assumptions are on the forums. As well as old rivalries and fault lines which can now be exploited. It is now clear where everyone stands from this thread alone. Therefore, I could easily see the OP as an 8.

But I'm aware there are multiple possible reasons behind the creation of this thread, and I therefore reserve judgement.




Kollinhausin said:


> The thread is not a confrontation. It's an attention-getter, and also a conversation. Two PerC heavyweights injected a bit of drama into it, and that's fine too because it shows some of the fault lines in the Enneagram community. It's all teaching me.


And sure enough. Several pages in. Like I said.

Carry on.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Just want to say I think this thread is hilarious.
> 
> It's like there's a "standard" interpretation of type on this forum. If someone shit-stirs on about being an 8, suddenly language becomes all important "*gasp* you used the word disprove!" despite the fact that we can all agree (I hope), typing by such stereotypical keywords alone is highly circumstantial and prone to failure.
> 
> ...


No, you have to roar like everyone else, obviously the one with the biggest roar is the king of the jungle and what they say goes. Therefore roar your loudest, and if you're the king of the jungle then you get to choose what type is @Kollinhausin, because only what you say will be fact while everybody else who couldnt roar as loud will fall to the wayside with their opinions, barring them from sharing their thoughts on this thread.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Deus Absconditus said:


> No, you have to roar like everyone else, obviously the one with the biggest roar is the king of the jungle and what they say goes. Therefore roar your loudest, and if you're the king of the jungle then you get to choose what type is @Kollinhausin, because only what you say will be fact while everybody else who couldnt roar as loud will fall to the wayside with their opinions, barring them from sharing their thoughts on this thread.


LOL!

In this space, yes. That's the dynamic of an online forum. 

And the irony of it, for none of it matters outside this obscure corner of the internet. Forum power doesn't translate to anything irl.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

@_The Typeless Wonder_ and @Deus Absconditus :

Together the two of you got close. I'll confess the reason for my craving for popular acclamation. 

9 is the crown of the Enneagram. Everyone says so.

What do you expect to find underneath a crown?


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Kollinhausin said:


> What do you expect to find underneath a crown?


Hat hair?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Vajra


> You project like a pro. It is plainly obvious that it is you who repeatedly attempts to portray yourself as the "heroic defender" of the ates and other purported victims of my Enneagram oppression. It is, in fact, you who has done as foolish, and massively revealing, a thing as comparing me to a genocidaire and to a demon LOL (does it get more obvious than that who is villainizing whom?), and in this case, making frankly delusional claims about my damaging omnipotence and silencing of members on an entire sub-forum.


LMAO! truer words have not been spoken in a long ass time. this post is a throwback to the days when there were more ates running the forum slinging their dicks around and getting miked, then acting like they were being victimized. hopefully some of the controversy comes back. shit's starting to get boring


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Vajra
> 
> 
> LMAO! truer words have not been spoken in a long ass time. this post is a throwback to the days when there were more ates running the forum slinging their dicks around and getting miked, then acting like they were being victimized. hopefully some of the controversy comes back. shit's starting to get boring


Stop teasing and looking down on me, I just want to continue slinging my dick around in peace without any worries, but I can't because you keep on picking on me which distracts me from my glorious habitual dick slinging tendencies.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> *What do you expect to find underneath a crown?*


The root and gums.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> It's possible I mistyped these people.


On a serious note though, this is the first step to understanding any typology system (well besides reading up on the concepts and theory), being able to understand that your personal criteria for determining a type could be flawed and/or wrong. Anecdotal evidence is fallacious, so the less anecdotal evidence you use in determining what a type is, then the more objective you will be in your decision making, which in turn increases your precision in accurately typing yourself. That's all I really care to say on the topic of what your potential type could possibly be.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> so you were making things up and talking out your ass.


Really? If you had actually read anything about the type, you wouldn't question my claim lol. Just because I can't recall a specific description at the time doesn't mean I am making shit up. Perhaps you should go out and validate what I said by reading up yourself? 

Here for example, this is the Fauvres description which stresses the qualities I stress, though truth is implied in how they keep recounting the importance of trust:
Enneagram Personality Type 6: The Doubter

You will find a very similar thread in the Riso & Hudson description on the enneagram institute, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 6s care a great deal about truth, because what's true is what's stable and trustworthy.

@Mimimesis yeah keep acting obtuse on purpose. I'm dating a 6. I know all there is about the 6 mind and what becomes increasingly obvious the longer we date is how far apart we are in terms of our life motivations. Too bad I'm strictly monogamous though, since apparently I need to fucking date you @Vajra so you would actually get my personality properly.


Introspection is a useful tool though, you know, maybe you should try it sometime, and that goes for both of you really. I am doing my job so don't come bitch at me that I am not when you are the ones falling behind.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Really? If you had actually read anything about the type, you wouldn't question my claim lol. Just because I can't recall a specific description at the time doesn't mean I am making shit up. Perhaps you should go out and validate what I said by reading up yourself?
> 
> Here for example, this is the Fauvres description which stresses the qualities I stress, though truth is implied in how they keep recounting the importance of trust:
> Enneagram Personality Type 6: The Doubter
> ...


This makes sense to me; if something has to be true to be secure, then it would connect to the 6's fear.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Really? If you had actually read anything about the type, you wouldn't question my claim lol. .


I question your claim because you are frequently caught talking out your ass.

I don't claim to know much about 6's. You are the expert. You made some bullshit claim. I called you on it. 

I love this: "I know all there is to know about the 6 mind". 

Indeed.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Kollinhausin said:


> This is my favorite music; what I like about it is the idea of a common enterprise carried out by a small group of determined people (yes the sailors didn't care but the music has them all singing so i ignore that part) with earth-shatteringly enormous consequences.


This made me think of what would happen if a lot of 6s were in the SAS or navy seals and started testing their authority on a mission. Guess that would be a treat lol.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

@The Typeless Wonder
It might be, it might be something else entirely.

The main reason I'm so adamant to not give half a shit about most 'type pushes' is that this specific matter is often taken as a personal challenge, as a race by individuals who want their truth to prevail by any means, even when their understanding of cognitive functions or type motivations is often backwards or self serving. Which is one way to go at it but, unless one is unbiased or intimate and familiar with a person, it's all moot because by the end of the day no one's able to tell whether op is laughing at the mayhem or shaking his fists angrily.

He seems to genuinely want to find a system and a procedure in enneagram typing, which makes me think more of his Te dominance rather than a 6's need to have people validate him, and willing to learn and confront his ideas which is always a good thing. It's not a matter of changing your stance, unless more compelling points that objectively make sense and fit in with your personal views and beliefs come up, rather expand on it by proving or disproving any argument made in this thread.

@Kollinhausin
I don't think you've mistyped them, the whole "I'm the man, I'm strong, passionate and always right, please tug hard on my ego and don't disagree with me. Please, I'm scared." attitude is very typical of sixes of both genders although female sixes might go for an ultra feminine way of expressing themselves as popular consensus is of vital importance to them, not even just social dominants or Fe users. The thing is, when one can see their true, hidden selves it's crystal clear that they're just adorable puppies trying to bark like a wolf. 

I get extremely annoyed with those exploiting this kind of innocence actually, sixes are very susceptible to emotional manipulation and logical pressure and it frankly disgusts me the way other 'smoother' types (or Fe users) tend to feast on that but that's borderline typism and just a personal impression. But see, this is basically the core essence of a Six, they roar loud yet cannot truly be convinced of it, they feel even more alienated than your average four and yet they want to fit it in, secretly and desperately while i couldn't care any less and actually wear this individualism like a badge of honor.

Eights don't need any of that because they set the standards for 'inclusion', they're the ones who demand you to prove yourself worthy as they know their strength and know when to use it and impose it on people for their own benefit, not necessarily in a negative way. An Eight is unconcerned with 'packs' unless it's their own, they are survivalists who thrive in dominating challenges as it gives them an outlet for their own anger, it helps them assert physical and moral strength rather than doing it out of hidden fear and to prove themselves worthy, whether it's to themselves, others or both.

So it all boils down to your true pushes and motivations.

Another thing I disagree with is that 3s are 'hollow' because that's not it, from my experience.
2s are more hollow as their feelings are mostly based on other people's and the favors and validation they can get out of them, often Fe-dominants, it's all about the pride that comes from adoration and seductions. Threes are smooth and calculated on the outside but a spiteful mess on the inside, almost as bad as sexual Fours, as they want to go against their own feelings and morals in order to gain favors and climb the social ladder but mostly in a self congratulatory way. "I make those puppets dance because I can but I wish someone saw through this".

3 is the bridge between the lack of self awareness and individuality of type 2 and the excessive individualism, sense of self, moodiness, emotional intensity ans spite of type 4.

"I want to be loved by everyone, I'll give them what they want" moving to "I want to be admired by everyone but I hate it, I want someone to see through my mask" moving to "I'd rather be hated if I can't be loved for who I am, I am me and I want to be loved for my flaws and true self. I'll never swallow anyone's opinion of me if it doesn't line up with my own".


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Kinetic said:


> This made me think of what would happen if a lot of 6s were in the SAS or navy seals and started testing their authority on a mission. Guess that would be a treat lol.


Although, someone told me that there are a lot of 6 officers.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Kollinhausin said:


> Although, someone told me that there are a lot of 6 officers.


Even better


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> I get extremely annoyed with those exploiting this kind of innocence actually, sixes are very susceptible to emotional manipulation and logical pressure and it frankly disgusts me the way other 'smoother' types (or Fe users) tend to feast on that but that's borderline typism and just a personal impression. But see, this is basically the core essence of a Six, they roar loud yet cannot truly be convinced of it, they feel even more alienated than your average four and yet they want to fit it in, secretly and desperately while i couldn't care any less and actually wear this individualism like a badge of honor.


I've never seen a 6 that I knew was a 6 targeted. My first reactions are what I said before, but if I saw them being exploited by a person who was capable, then I wouldn't like that. Especially if they were clueless.



Hotaru said:


> Eights don't need any of that because they set the standards for 'inclusion', they're the ones who demand you to prove yourself worthy as they know their strength and know when to use it and impose it on people for their own benefit, not necessarily in a negative way. An Eight is unconcerned with 'packs' unless it's their own, they are survivalists who thrive in dominating challenges as it gives them an outlet for their own anger, it helps them assert physical and moral strength rather than doing it out of hidden fear and to prove themselves worthy, whether it's to themselves, others or both.
> 
> So it all boils down to your true pushes and motivations.


Now this is helpful; the part about people needing to prove themselves worthy, would that apply to romantic interests as well? 

At no point in my life have I ever belonged to a group or a pack, and I've not tried to. I have lots of acquaintances, but every time I start to get into a group of people, other things come up and I move on. It's a flaw in my character, but I tend to start thinking that I'm wasting my time and that I could be doing something I want to do more. Actually at my job I am doing more for the organization than I have to, partly in a self-serving way because it's fun and I might find new opportunities that way, but also because it's a longterm investment in the students of my college (it's a teaching thing) and I don't want to be a free rider on the social system, because generally I am. 

Generally I go into something, suck a ton of social energy out of it, and then leave. I did that deliberately when I was little, but when I got older and saw others who did the same thing, I thought 'that's not an admirable behavior, it's kind of shallow and selfish', so now that I'm older I try to get people to move past that and not focus on me. Frankly, I like that people would want to show me attention, but when they actually do I get embarrassed or, worse, angry because I think something like 'do you think I need your praise to know that?'.



Hotaru said:


> Another thing I disagree with is that 3s are 'hollow' because that's not it, from my experience.
> 2s are more hollow as their feelings are mostly based on other people's and the favors and validation they can get out of them, often Fe-dominants, it's all about the pride that comes from adoration and seductions. Threes are smooth and calculated on the outside but a spiteful mess on the inside, almost as bad as sexual Fours, as they want to go against their own feelings and morals in order to gain favors and climb the social ladder but mostly in a self congratulatory way. "I make those puppets dance because I can but I wish someone saw through this".


I don't understand the internal state of a 3, so I won't argue that.

I tend to overlook 2s, or the two ISFJs I think are 2s. I just thought they were kind but with a very weak presence, almost like they don't care about anything. I never would have imagined that they want to be adored; they don't project that at all.

Threes and sexual Fours sound like Richard the III, the king in Shakespeare who delights in being a villain. I can't say I know anyone with an internal state like that, at least that I've noticed.



Hotaru said:


> 3 is the bridge between the lack of self awareness and individuality of type 2 and the excessive individualism, sense of self, moodiness, emotional intensity ans spite of type 4.
> 
> "I want to be loved by everyone, I'll give them what they want" moving to "I want to be admired by everyone but I hate it, I want someone to see through my mask" moving to "I'd rather be hated if I can't be loved for who I am, I am me and I want to be loved for my flaws and true self. I'll never swallow anyone's opinion of me if it doesn't line up with my own".


I can actually understand that much better than the 2 or the 3. It's overdramatic, but I read Wuthering Heights and liked it; is that possibly a 4 world? It was extremely intense for a book, I got absorbed in it and didn't think about how at odds it is from real life until the end.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Kollinhausin said:


> I've never seen a 6 that I knew was a 6 targeted. My first reactions are what I said before, but if I saw them being exploited by a person who was capable, then I wouldn't like that. Especially if they were clueless.


Not exactly related, as I feel the same way and it's more of a matter of empathy and personal feelings but fits with type 8 and type 1 if it's what they personally consider wrong, although it'd be in a more detached way, reactives are more warm blooded.



> Now this is helpful; the part about people needing to prove themselves worthy, would that apply to romantic interests as well?


I think so as 8s tend to hate any form of weakness so it's either rejecting anyone unworthy or taking them under their wing to help them learn how to 'suck it up' so to speak. An 8 is aware of their strength and often wants an equally strong partner who won't overthrow them.



> At no point in my life have I ever belonged to a group or a pack, and I've not tried to. I have lots of acquaintances, but every time I start to get into a group of people, other things come up and I move on. It's a flaw in my character, but I tend to start thinking that I'm wasting my time and that I could be doing something I want to do more. Actually at my job I am doing more for the organization than I have to, partly in a self-serving way because it's fun and I might find new opportunities that way, but also because it's a longterm investment in the students of my college (it's a teaching thing) and I don't want to be a free rider on the social system, because generally I am.


I can see social 8w7 core, perhaps with a 4 fix.



> Generally I go into something, suck a ton of social energy out of it, and then leave. I did that deliberately when I was little, but when I got older and saw others who did the same thing, I thought 'that's not an admirable behavior, it's kind of shallow and selfish', so now that I'm older I try to get people to move past that and not focus on me. Frankly, I like that people would want to show me attention, but when they actually do I get embarrassed or, worse, angry because I think something like 'do you think I need your praise to know that?'


This is even more indicative of a 7 wing. 

Seven is a narcissistic, honest, proactive type who needs to be always on the go, self assured, individualistic, free, escaping boredom and excessive negativity and mostly focusing on new perspectives, concrete pleasures and self indulgence. I can definitely see an 8w7 craving attention and getting angry at the shallowness and pointlessness of it all "I don't need your approval to know I'm powerful and worthy of respect"



> I tend to overlook 2s, or the two ISFJs I think are 2s. I just thought they were kind but with a very weak presence, almost like they don't care about anything. I never would have imagined that they want to be adored; they don't project that at all.


Sounds 9ish, 2s don't have any strong personal opinions because they adjust to the crowd they want to seduce and it's not necessarily about being a good person. They could go for a "bubbly and playfully aggressive and assertive" persona or an extremely tormented and pseudo poetic one but you can see from miles that it's all a scam. Especially when you get a chance to observe them in private and notice they're the first to brown nose while shit talking behind the scenes. They put up a good show, one I'd rather not buy as a Fi-dom although they can get _that good_ at messing with one's head, but there's still a loving, ego boosting and nurturing/sensual (depending on instincts) element in there that can appeal to some. It's not necessarily out of malice, some just genuinely need that kind of attention and popularity, although the unhealthy ones are vicious and _two_-faced indeed. 



> Threes and sexual Fours sound like Richard the III, the king in Shakespeare who delights in being a villain. I can't say I know anyone with an internal state like that, at least that I've noticed.


It's not delighting yourself on being a villain, more like bathing into your own negativity, weaknesses, flaws, imperfection and mistakes and both making them your armored strength and integral part of your identity. I'm real, I'm me, I don't overlook my darkness and if that makes me a villain in their eyes, so be it, their vision doesn't affect mine and they can't feel an inch of my feelings and depth. I am who I am and no one can dispute that.

Basically.



> I can actually understand that much better than the 2 or the 3. It's overdramatic, but I read Wuthering Heights and liked it; is that possibly a 4 world? It was extremely intense for a book, I got absorbed in it and didn't think about how at odds it is from real life until the end.


I think you're 4 fixed, if you're interested in tritype I'd say 8w7 4w5 7w6 so/sp.

I adore Wuthering Heights, it's so passionate, intense and just dripping insanity.
I'd say it's a romance between an extremely unhealthy 2 and an extremely unhealthy 8, perhaps 3.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> I think you're 4 fixed, if you're interested in tritype I'd say 8w7 4w5 7w6 so/sp.


Now THAT was good. You've got it, or come very close. I'm now convinced that the Enneagram is useful; I was looking for some revelation that would dig deeper beyond stuff that could apply to anyone, with different explanatory power from Socionics.

One aspect of my character that was never addressed by cognitive functions is my desire to teach the people I like/ who have 'ears to hear' the things that I learn. In fact, way back when I was inclined to think I used Fe just on that basis, that it was a 'harmony/benefit my group' Fe thing. Te Ni is into self-development and helping people develop their strengths, but that wasn't quite specific enough for what I was doing.

My stubborness was another thing that could use another layer of explanatory depth; that's something that I've been told when I ask for feedback, but I don't really acknowledge it.

I don't care too much about adapting to my audience; I thought in the literary work I did a few years ago that if people didn't understand or agree, that was their problem. I know that's a problem for a writer, but I didn't solve it because I wouldn't adapt to others; instead I gave up writing in disgust and decided to only communicate verbally so people can either take it or leave it.

Finally, cognitive functions said nothing about my specific interests. Why am I on this forum? 

I really appreciate this result; I am satisfied that I can use Enneagram now because here I found some specific markers that aren't all that common in the population (I hope) which are also personally useful to me; I knew I was arrogant and I try to take that into account, but I didn't see clearly before now that a refusal to compromise on my artistic work is not admirable, but futile. 

Thanks!






The video provided here provides a result, and claims to have the mechanism (4 - 7 - 8 tritype) to explain that.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> One aspect of my character that was never addressed by cognitive functions is my desire to teach the people I like/ who have 'ears to hear' the things that I learn. In fact, way back when I was inclined to think I used Fe just on that basis, that it was a 'harmony/benefit my group' Fe thing. Te Ni is into self-development and helping people develop their strengths, but that wasn't quite specific enough for what I was doing.
> 
> .


I have a huge desire and drive in me to do that. I'm building a boat from scratch, and I'd rather teach the neighborhood kids to weld on it then do it myself. I also find myself a professor, and love it. 

I think it is a combination of my Fe from being ENTP, and my integration towards 2. Might be conceited to think that way, but I'm ok with it.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> it's either rejecting anyone unworthy or taking them under their wing to help them learn how to 'suck it up' so to speak. An 8 is aware of their strength and often wants an equally strong partner who won't overthrow them.
> 
> 
> This is even more indicative of a 7 wing.
> ...


I believe you really understand much of me, with a couple of really minor adjustments. I'm Sx, and a bit antisocial. 8's OFTEN have packs, or people who follow them. Most enjoy and like that. 
I'm sigma, and don't want groupies. I am different than most 8's I believe. But I don't need anyone's approval, and if I get it, I'm suspicious on the one hand, but maybe secretly I like it, but don't tell anyone.

I'm not sure tritypes work for me. I've got plenty of 5 when wounded, and I can see my path into 2. I really like 4's, but most of the 4's I've run into are mbti INFJ's.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

An interesting thing I've run across trying to see intersections between Socionics and Enneagram; in lots of Socionics descriptions of LIE, you read something like what I've got below. Interestingly, if it's right that 7 is last in my tritype and also in a wing, that agrees with what Jack wants to say in the video around 2:35:00; that 7 correlates to Ne. But I think other parts of what his opinion are contradictory, so this is totally subjective : 

*Ne as Demonstrative Function (EIE, LIE)

The individual is fairly good at generating all kinds of notions and hypothetical ideas, but unless they can be fitted to the current situations he doesn't himself take the ideas seriously and views the activity as a sort of entertaining exercise lacking in value. It is more natural for him to apply his imagination and vision specifically to those areas where he is trying to achieve something concrete than merely to "indulge" in thinking and empty discussions about things that have no relation to his activities and goals in life.*


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Entropic said:


> Really? If you had actually read anything about the type, you wouldn't question my claim lol. Just because I can't recall a specific description at the time doesn't mean I am making shit up. Perhaps you should go out and validate what I said by reading up yourself?
> 
> Here for example, this is the Fauvres description which stresses the qualities I stress, though truth is implied in how they keep recounting the importance of trust:
> Enneagram Personality Type 6: The Doubter
> ...


It's really wondrous how you cling to this phobic 6 as 'the 6', and claim authority based on the merit of dating a 6. Your defense was that I only quote Naranjo. Which is not a very strong argument, but I guess if one wants to dismiss information that causes cognitive dissonance, there's always a way to rationalize it.

However, since you mentioned Fauvres, I'd like to remind to you this post from Katherine8 (Fauvre), which was actually addressed to you! 



katherine8 said:


> If we think fight-flight and freeze, it explains how I see the three instincts of 6. The sp6 reports avoiding what causes them to feel fear and are more inclined to 'flee' or move away...or perhaps defend.... The so6 reports they 'freeze' and that they go back and forth and vacillate the most.... *And, the sx6 is more inclined to 'fight' and are often proof junkies.... and report that they are not afraid. The Enneastyle Questionnaire has the question " I am afraid of _______. The cp6 will say that they are afraid of nothing whereas the 8 will make a joke and say frills or complainers. The 8 does not feel triggered by the question whereas the cp6 usually is. Eventually, the sx6 will see that they are 6s but are so defended against it at first that it takes time.*
> 
> Having said that, there is a curious exception. *In my experience the So INTJ 683 has turned out to be the most aggressive combination and will rarely if ever realize they are a 6. The key to seeing the 6s is in their word choices, expressions and body language. *They are the great debaters. They warn people about many things. They caution about being this______ or ________. They use the words warn, caution, careful and trust much more frequently than the other combinations. *They often have big energy so it is easy to see why they seem like 8s and believe they are 8s. However, they are not protective in the same manner as the 8 nor are they nonchalant, relaxed and self-possessed like the 8. By comparison, they have an uneasy edge. They defer (6) to the their idea of an important rule that they try to enforce (6) for the good of others (so).* When healthy they are amazing supporters of intellectual ideals and gather others to make it happen. When unhealthy they are the true bullies and persecute(6) through undermining those that trigger their fear (So 6).


I am not monogamous, and I may not know your personality though I'm pretty sure that I'd rather date someone more nonchalant, more relaxed, and more self-possessed than you anyway. Also, your ambition to 'control sub-forums' here at PerC, and priding yourself in having people banned, was kind of a turn off. 

Anyway, it appears that the metrics on cp6 (sx) support much of Naranjo's descriptors of this subtype that I have posted: 



Naranjo CP6 said:


> "He protects himself from doubt, ambiguity, and indecision through a “true believer” excessive certainty. (...) Along with these I have listed the descriptors “they think they know the right way,” “pressuring others to conform,” “bluffing,” “strong,” “courageous.” The trait of scapegoating appears to be related to this “strong” expression of type VI rather than the warm and weak style."


So, cp6 thinks he has no fear, in a comparable way an sx4 (counter-shame) may think he has no shame. To become aware of this is not a pleasant experience, which perhaps explains why sx6 or cp6 (or sx4 for that matter) may resist this (true) type, on a visceral level, or may not ever find their true typing, and just keep running away from facing their deepest fear or shame, perpetuating the maladaptive loop and illusion and undermining personal transformation.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

> And, the sx6 is more inclined to 'fight' and are often proof junkies.... and report that they are not afraid. The Enneastyle Questionnaire has the question " I am afraid of _______. The cp6 will say that they are afraid of nothing whereas the 8 will make a joke and say frills or complainers. The 8 does not feel triggered by the question whereas the cp6 usually is. Eventually, the sx6 will see that they are 6s but are so defended against it at first that it takes time.


The sx6 won't allow anything make them freeze or flight, so they go at it preemptively (and prove to everyone that they can do it) while the 8 might actually say that they are afraid of heights, but if they have to climb that thing to get to something they will probably do just that no matter who's looking.

sx6 - Donald Cerrone
sx8 - Ronda Rousey, Cat Zingano (I like Cat more, but I think Ronda will win).


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

@Kollinhausin
This is why I think tritype is an extremely useful concept.

It might initially give off the impression that it's a pointless over complication but once it gets studied in depth and tied to an acute analysis of one's core type, it becomes clear that it actually simplifies the entire system and make every piece fall into the picture. Because every individual is peculiar and comes from an unique set of experiences but all of that doesn't exactly explain why the perception and behavior of two people belonging to the same type can be sort of dissimilar albeit in a consistent way.

Socionics, MBTI, Tritype, Instinctual stackings and Enneagram are all different systems that compose a big picture so each needs to be properly analyzed in order to form a full portrait that might get extremely close to explain the subconscious mechanisms and depth of a person. It's all very functional and simple once you truly understand how it works and, not only it doesn't justify nor induce mistypes, it actually actively reduces them as any kind of propensity or inclination toward another type might be captured in a more in depth personalized and introspective description.

I think this link will provide you further insight.

"874 tritype feels lighter and more enthusiastic to me, than does the 847 tritype, which feels more like a strike of lightning burrowing into the ground.

Perhaps the tritype is 847 where 7 acts as an ever-running generator, constantly humming underneath the surface. The 7 energy operates more like "monkey mind" than a physically expressed energy.

As an sx 874 I feel called to discover as much as I can about human nature and then share what I learned. Some of my greatest moments of clarity have come during times of great adversity. When I feel grief and loss it always feels personal and I feel separate from others. When I allow the pain and suffering the 8 wants to avoid, I am able to connect to that which is universal and know that all people everywhere understand the meaning of loss. This is when I remember that I am never truly alone or separate

The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.

The 847 is more extroverted intuition with the attention going outward. It is a lighter and is more optimistic"



drmiller100 said:


> I'm not sure tritypes work for me. I've got plenty of 5 when wounded, and I can see my path into 2. I really like 4's, but most of the 4's I've run into are mbti INFJ's.


I'm an INFP/EII, I remember you once typing me as INFJ due to your personal experience but it's clear that my Fe is utterly lacking and defective. Type Four is actually an extreme good fit for Fi-doms as it captures the same sense of willing isolation, willing quirkiness, a similar need to be stuck in the past and wallow in tragedy while fiercely demanding for from life and desiring what's ideal and what less deserving people have. It's love and hate, self loathing and needing to be seen as genuine and as I am, it's independence and neediness, quiet and drama, deep love and fierce hatred. 

Most of the INFJs I've met fit better into the social 4 profile as this is the type who is very 6-like in nature (1, 3, 4 and 6 are my top picks for INFJs) yet not quite, as there's still an emotionally intense and self devouring drive, a different kind of neurosis driven by wanting to fit in without losing the self, of keeping their head free of external input. Putting themselves down while looking at social hierarchies with longing, sadness and arrogance.

Think Marylin Manson.

Sexual Fours are mostly INFPs and ISFPs and some ENFPs.
Self Preservation Fours are equally split.
Social Fours are generally INFJs and the rare ENFJ.

This is very stereotypical, of course, but just my personal experience.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> So, cp6 thinks he has no fear, in a comparable way an sx4 (counter-shame) may think he has no shame. To become aware of this is not a pleasant experience, which perhaps explains why sx6 or cp6 (or sx4 for that matter) may resist this (true) type, on a visceral level, or may not ever find their true typing, and just keep running away from facing their deepest fear or shame, perpetuating the maladaptive loop and illusion and undermining personal transformation.


See, this idea here is really what almost turned me away from Enneagram. Having this 'black box' of cp 6 to thrust people into so you can discredit them is convenient; it makes everything someone says suspect so that there is no way they can disprove the 'accusation'. And based on the reactions I've seen from others, cp 6 is being treated as a 'black box' regardless of what they may say they believe. 

It could be that I'm overstating this, but I'm going to create a thread to see if there is anyone who actually 'fesses up to being a cp 6. If not . . . that would be interesting.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> See, this idea here is really what almost turned me away from Enneagram. Having this 'black box' of cp 6 to thrust people into so you can discredit them is convenient; it makes everything someone says suspect so that there is no way they can disprove the 'accusation'. And based on the reactions I've seen from others, cp 6 is being treated as a 'black box' regardless of what they may say they believe.
> 
> It could be that I'm overstating this, but I'm going to create a thread to see if there is anyone who actually 'fesses up to being a cp 6. If not . . . that would be interesting.


Every type has a certain "trap" that can keep someone in his fixation.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Hotaru said:


> Most of the INFJs I've met fit better into the social 4 profile as this is the type who is very 6-like in nature


In what way are they 6 like?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> I question your claim because you are frequently caught talking out your ass.
> 
> I don't claim to know much about 6's. You are the expert. You made some bullshit claim. I called you on it.
> 
> ...


And you don't talk out of yours, lol? If you admit you are not an expert, how can you even begin to validate whether I was talking out of my ass or not, whether it is bullshit or not? The point is, you can't. So touché.

@mimesis Yeah keep acting obtuse. You wanna pull the quotation game, I could also go pull Maitri who thinks that sx 6 is not per se necessarily the cp6 and thus clearly challenges both Naranjo and that Fauvres quote you brought up (I don't necessarily agree with it either, as I think my personal observations show that sx got nothing to do with cp and while there could be merit to the tritype playing a role, I inherently do not subscribe much to the tritype theory anymore so it's a moot point), or I could pull up some R&H who make the claim that 6s obviously all possess both traits of phobic and counterphobic and it's an obvious range and not some black and white set in stone where they are _either_ of them. A 6 is indeed a 6, because they still work internally the same. If they didn't, the literature would go to great lengths to explain how the inner working of a phobic 6 is so dramatically different from that of a counterphobic one, and the truth is that there is not a single piece of literature who does this, at least not that I have read, and I think I have read quite a fair bit now (Fauvres, Maitri, R&H, Naranjo, probably gonna order Palmer and Almaas next). I've had the experience to observe a 6 who came across as primarily phobic during times of stress go full force counterphobic. He didn't turn into some 8 caricature of how cp is often understood to be like on this site, that's for sure. He was still underneath all that, undeniably a 6 and very easily recognizable as such. The whole cp6 looks like 8 is way too over-blown. 

I challenge you to find one enneagram author who, when explaining the actual inner foundation of the type and I stress inner, in how their mind is actually internally wired and what they are the most focused on, as being inherently different between p and cp. Instead, you will find that the literature actually explains the 6 by and large the same and way, in fairly general manner, just mention that there are two kinds of 6s but then go on to explain the type 6 as a whole which you seem to think represents the phobic variant. It doesn't. Their passion is fear, their virtue is courage, they are all doubting, vacillating, have the integration and disintegration points at 3 and 9 and thus take on qualities of both these types and so on and so forth. 

Are you going to challenge everything @Arya has written on this site thus far too, addressing the inner workings of type 6 and how they feel about things, as only being addressed to phobic 6s? I find a lot of what she has to say about the type to be very elucidating since she has after all, direct experience of what it means to be like as a 6. Phobic or counterphobic. Dismissing it as irrelevant or only relevant to phobic 6s is quite offensive to the time she takes to write it down, and it goes to show that you don't understand what counterphobic is. There it is, real experiential understanding of what it is like to be a 6, and it fits the literature perfectly.

I mean seriously, I already told you once but I'll do it again - you keep pigeonholing on something you do not understand because you keep looking at it from an armchair's length and think you know-it-all. You fucking don't. A 6 is a 6, and they all work the same or they wouldn't be 6s. That's the definition of what a 6 is. If they do not adhere to it, they are not one. It's that simple.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

Fictional Type 8s





[Frank Underwood]





[Lunk]





[Jack Bauer]


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

@Hotaru

Yes, you're right.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Given Karl Popper's scientific philosophy, I do suppose we could falsify your claim, however given that enneagram/all typing is prone to every single subjective bias known to man, and a horde we haven't discovered yet, why bother spending the time? Posts like these are generally people looking for social confirmation of their own view, and thus either turn into circle-jerks or a series of pointless flame posts.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> @Kollinhausin
> This is why I think tritype is an extremely useful concept.
> 
> It might initially give off the impression that it's a pointless over complication but once it gets studied in depth and tied to an acute analysis of one's core type, it becomes clear that it actually simplifies the entire system and make every piece fall into the picture. Because every individual is peculiar and comes from an unique set of experiences but all of that doesn't exactly explain why the perception and behavior of two people belonging to the same type can be sort of dissimilar albeit in a consistent way.
> ...


This is an extremely important part of self exploration, all of what makes an individual an individual are a whole bunch of mechanisms functioning together, so in order to ensure that one lowers their probability of mistyping they should see how other aspects not related to the specific typology at hand could affect your type in that specific typology. 

For example, an Ne 8, a Se 8, and a Te 8 all share the same core aspects of an 8 but how it presents itself, along with how each of them act/react when it does present itself, will differ between them due to having different functions which alters perceptions and judgements. 

Most descriptions of types tend to focus on general attributes, or typical and common features of the types being described. This inevitably discounts the differences between individuals of the same type, making it difficult for some people of that type to identify with it if those differences are causing the confusion within the individual trying to figure out their type.

I suggest always sticking to the core concepts that are inherent within the type as a whole, then to see how other typologies and unrelated psychological properties affect or direct those core concepts. 



> Most of the INFJs I've met fit better into the social 4 profile as this is the type who is very 6-like in nature (1, 3, 4 and 6 are my top picks for INFJs) yet not quite, as there's still an emotionally intense and self devouring drive, a different kind of neurosis driven by wanting to fit in without losing the self, of keeping their head free of external input. Putting themselves down while looking at social hierarchies with longing, sadness and arrogance.
> 
> Think Marylin Manson.
> 
> ...


I tend to pick up on the same patterns, and to add my S/O is an INFJ 479 so/sx who can come off at times as "very 6-like in nature" but if one understands the difference in types adeptly it becomes obvious that she is a core 4 with her head type being 7 rather than 6. This is all anecdotal though, and I never encourage the use of anecdotal evidence to define what a type is, especially since its possible that she and I could've mistyped her, but I wanted to present it to show that I have also noticed the same patterns and tendencies. When it comes to 4s I have also noticed that the majority of them happen to be INFPs, and they seem to fit together rather well, while on the other hand INFJs are 4s at a lesser rate but not as rare as ENFP 4s. Like already stated though, this is all anecdotal and I could be wrong but worth bringing to the discussion.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Scelerat said:


> Given Karl Popper's scientific philosophy, I do suppose we could falsify your claim, however given that enneagram/all typing is prone to every single subjective bias known to man, and a horde we haven't discovered yet, why , bother spending the time?


Because it's an online forum, so why not? And for the subjective part, yep, I agree. So I was satisfied with a typing that would complement what I already had observed without sufficient description in my pre-existing framework.



Scelerat said:


> Posts like these are generally people looking for social confirmation of their own view, and thus either turn into circle-jerks or a series of pointless flame posts.


That's true, too. But I learned a fair bit from this one.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

mimesis said:


> So, cp6 thinks he has no fear, in a comparable way an* sx4 (counter-shame) may think he has no shame. To become aware of this is not a pleasant experience*, which perhaps explains why sx6 or cp6 (or sx4 for that matter) *may resist this (true) type, on a visceral level,* or may not ever find their true typing, and just keep running away from facing their deepest fear or shame, perpetuating the maladaptive loop and illusion and undermining personal transformation.


You could say that again...


@Kollinhausin
Re: questions on 6 vs 8 , I didn't forget - I've just been busy - will answer asap


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Every type has a certain "trap" that can keep someone in his fixation.


Then that's still problematic because it undermines the freedom and credibility of the individual. How can any truth be determined if we can't accept the basic accuracy of what individuals say, at least to themselves? 

Cognitive functions only say that an individual viewpoint is going to emphasize some information and deemphasize other info, as I understand it. That's okay with me because if the individual wants to be open-minded, they can go to those who value these other functions he doesn't value, and somewhat take that into account for a more complete picture. 

That can only happen because the basic integrity and reliability of the individual isn't called into question; if someone says they want to cooperate, we can just assume that is true.

Am I correct in my understanding that Enneagram tends not to accept the basic reliability of the individual when it comes to relating his/her own experience and desires?

If so, I just don't know how to even begin to deal with that. It opens the door to so much relativism . . .


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> Because it's an online forum, so why not? And for the subjective part, yep, I agree. So I was satisfied with a typing that would complement what I already had observed without sufficient description in my pre-existing framework.


You are asking people who do not know you, to argue against the type you have decided upon for yourself so giving limited data in multiple ways its hard for it to be remotely constructive.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Scelerat said:


> You are asking people who do not know you, to argue against the type you have decided upon for yourself so giving limited data in multiple ways its hard for it to be remotely constructive.


I see by your signature that you don't want to be replied to, but maybe you'll reply once more. 

Data is always limited, I don't see that that means anything. In fact, limiting data by what I believe might be representative and by what the questioner thinks might be representative is the only way of going forward. 

I wasn't vested to my type at the beginning because I wasn't vested in the Enneagram. I didn't see that it was providing me with new information. So I kept going until someone introduced something that I could use that I didn't know already. This has also shown me that typing people's instinctual variants might at times be very hard, because I never would have seen myself as So; I was associating that with an Fe stereotype.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Kinetic said:


> In what way are they 6 like?


Both types feel self conscious and alienated from society and group dynamics.
Both types are 1-like in nature and perfectionists, needing to be "right".
Both types focus on the things that set them apart from everyone else.
Both types need to be a part of something and are prone to depression or aggressive peacocking.
Both types tend to draw a lot of attention on themselves or shy away from it if w5 or phobic.

The main difference is that a social 4 wouldn't give up their own uniqueness and alienation, they look for fellow outcasts, build royalty outside the norm, deny their envy and induce their own misery to solidify their flawed image and draw strength from it. Social Fours live in the past, they keep looking for their own social mistakes in order to avoid them and yet can't help but blame society and feel superior to others in their inferiority, they're misanthropic and sarcastic, 'different' while blending in.

Sixes, and social sixes in particular *need*, a place to belong, they're more detached or afraid of their own emotions so it's not shame they feel rather a deep fear of not being a good person or strong enough to be accepted in a group, especially the most socially clueless ones. Where a Four will look down on others and sneak in while keeping their identity intact, a social Six will walk the extra mile to accept a group's ideologies as their own, to identify with their logical and moral stances completely, to look for consistency and approval. They're strongly loyal and yet they don't trust easily or, rather, they might jump in and spend the time that follows questioning themselves and their choices. 

If a Four peacocks their individualism, a Six will peacock the dynamics of the group they're part of, using the same inside jokes, similar ways of behaving, asking constantly for reassurance.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kinetic said:


> T actually say that they don't like heights, but if they have to climb that thing to get to something they will probably do just that no matter who's looking.
> 
> \.


I really dislike heights. I used to be into riding snowmobiles up avalanche chutes. I'd "compete" against buddies to see who could build the coolest sled, and get furthest up the mountain. All fun and games until you get ot the top.

Then you are sitting on top of a cliff, on a flat spot, and have to look off down the cliff. Sometimes I'd sit up there and gather my nuts to start heading down the mountain. 
Once you are headed down, you are committed, and no time to think.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> How can any truth be determined if we can't accept the basic accuracy of what individuals say, at least to themselves?
> 
> 
> If so, I just don't know how to even begin to deal with that. It opens the door to so much relativism . . .


Objective truth is worthy of pursuit. Enneagram allows me an excellent framework to question my assumptions, find my "weakness" for lack fo a better word, and become a better person.

Sometimes people have a better perspective on me than I do. Other times the whole world is wrong about me, and I'm ok with that also. 
To me, this comes back to the introspection which people keep encouraging for you. Only YOU can decide what works for you. The rest of us are at best trying to help, at worst feeding our own egos.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> Objective truth is worthy of pursuit. Enneagram allows me an excellent framework to question my assumptions, find my "weakness" for lack fo a better word, and become a better person.
> 
> Sometimes people have a better perspective on me than I do. Other times the whole world is wrong about me, and I'm ok with that also.
> To me, this comes back to the introspection which people keep encouraging for you. Only YOU can decide what works for you. The rest of us are at best trying to help, at worst feeding our own egos.


And now I'm starting to see this, although without any introspection. Instead, I went to external sources, and pinged stuff back and forth, and exactly as I said at the start, the answer became apparent. 

Yes, I think this is a great tool to see your own weaknesses. And to find truth. For one thing, cognitive functions tell you others think differently, but the 'equality of all types' is an add-on coming from outside the theory; the theory itself can't say that if you think being true to oneself is the highest good, for example, that it doesn't follow that INFPs are a better type than some other type more inclined to focus on other things.

Whereas Enneagram has a real basis for saying that, not just the natural (and right, but it isn't an argument) feeling that typism is wrong.

No, at worst you're feeding my ego. 

And I'll say again that I don't see why introspection is needed; why can't I just say "Going forward, I'm going to bear this pattern in mind"? I don't want to bring the past to bear on the future; I have a belief that we can easily shed our past and step forward into the next thing with no regrets if we just draw a firm line: "That was then, and this is now; I'm going to do this now and not do that again." It seems like forgetting the past is much easier than trying to untangle hopelessly tangled and knotted events.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Hotaru said:


> Both types feel self conscious and alienated from society and group dynamics.
> Both types are 1-like in nature and perfectionists, needing to be "right".
> Both types focus on the things that set them apart from everyone else.
> Both types need to be a part of something and are prone to depression or aggressive peacocking.
> ...


This was some good stuff! Thank you


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> And now I'm starting to see this, although without any introspection. Instead, I went to external sources, and pinged stuff back and forth, and exactly as I said at the start, the answer became apparent.
> 
> 
> And I'll say again that I don't see why introspection is needed; why can't I just say "Going forward, I'm going to bear this pattern in mind"? I don't want to bring the past to bear on the future; I have a belief that we can easily shed our past and step forward into the next thing with no regrets if we just draw a firm line: "That was then, and this is now; I'm going to do this now and not do that again." It seems like forgetting the past is much easier than trying to untangle hopelessly tangled and knotted events.


From the perspective of an 8. 8 seems to value TRUTH. We also dislike being controlled.
Let's make up a hypothetical example. You post to this thread. Several quiet people post some kind posts as conversation starters. A loud, self opinionated person starts braying you are X type based on made up facts pulled from their ass. IF you listen to volume, you would be X type. 

Instead, YOU are responsible for weeding through the braying, the opinions, hte wrong leads, and YOU are responsible for looking inward to see what fits for you. 
You must do the work, or you can abdicate your identity to the braying of someone else.

As I said, sometimes people become convinced they are a type, and change their mind. That is wonderful. 

And you now see the equal importance of seeing what is not you. People truly do think differently. Fundamentally differently, and a framework for understanding is a huge benefit IMO.

This thread is one of the best threads I have read in a while about enneagram. Some really smart, kind people posted, and I learn much. 

A sincere thank you.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Two posts I've written on the cp 6/8 distinction:



> That's pretty much it re: cp6 and 8. Both are struggle types that move against the environment. Survival anxiety and/or an overarching focus on survival per se, beyond the basic necessity of it which is a universal human concern, is more 6 because they view the world as unpredictable. 8s view the world as conflictual, and so the emphasis is more on emotional and psychological invulnerability (this they share with cp6), control and expansion over their sphere of action, influence and leverage to ensure the ego and material boundaries between themselves and the environment.
> 
> Because the 6's attentional pattern is attuned to the emergence of threats or existing threats (to survival, for example) and contingencies, they have an eye for detail for things being "off" that an 8 can miss as they perceive themselves as larger than potential challenges. Cp 6s do not view themselves on the favourable side of the power scale, and they seek to overcome that through counterphobia or courage. This causes them to remain more vigilant than 8s, whether the 6 weighs their risks or acts rashly. While 8s and 6s both have fantastic bullshit detectors, 6s have a stark sensitivity to even subtler inconsistencies and threats that can make them a better fit for the archetypical "survivalist" than 8.
> 
> ...


AND



> Well, shitty stereotypes about cp6s being wannabe 8s have been long put to rest. So, I'll address some of the more salient comparisons and contrasts.
> 
> 1. Both are reactive types- test boundaries, push for the truth, value trust and loyalty.
> 2. Both are aggressive, no-nonsense types that are persistent and highly assertive in a conflict.
> ...


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

@Vajra

Would you say that 8 are more concerned with day to day fears i.e. something that will get in their way of living life the way they want it and cp6 seem to be more about jumping out of planes to prove to themselves and others that they aren't afraid and stuff like that?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Kinetic said:


> cp6 seem to be more about jumping out of planes to prove to themselves and others that they aren't afraid and stuff like that?


wat. Hope you're not entirely serious, because it sounds like a trivialization.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Kinetic said:


> @_Vajra_
> 
> Would you say that ... cp6 seem to be more about jumping out of planes to prove to themselves and others that they aren't afraid and stuff like that?


Precisely. As you can tell from my posted excerpts, I consider cp6s retarded tryhards. You missed the bit about throwing TV sets at kittens just to prove they are a badass.

p.s. lol I read your question as facetious. I see you're asking about the RH quote. no, I don't think so. It's very short-sighted to assume that any time a 6 does something adventurous, they are countering fear or proving to people they are unafraid. I could see some 6s doing that, if insecure, but I don't consider that the norm.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

@Vajra


Kinetic said:


> @Vajra
> 
> Would you say that 8 are more concerned with day to day fears i.e. something that will get in their way of living life the way they want it and *cp6 seem to be more about jumping out of planes to prove to themselves and others that they aren't afraid and stuff like that?*


The problem I have when people compare 6's to any type is that they never focus on what makes a 6 completely and utterly different from other types, which just causes more confusion if the core of the types are forgotten. For instance, I have seen many people say a cp6 will jump out of a plane to prove to themselves and others that they aren't afraid but then others state this:



> 5. *Both types are driven to conquer their fears and vulnerabilities*. 8s are considered to exemplify the counter-phobic approach par excellence. In other words, contrary to popular stereotyping, that I alluded to above, about cp6s being blustery wannabes that are constantly fleeing from fear, 8s being as human as anyone else, also have fears and are just as driven as cp6s to counter them.





> Of course, beneath the surface, Eights are as afraid as everyone else, but they have learned to limit the degree to which their fear registers consciously. When it does, *Eights will intentionally take on challenges which confront this fear directly. If they fear heights, they will learn to climb mountains or go sky diving. If they are afraid of animals, they will go hunting or trekking in the wilderness.* Although we have mentioned the counterphobic aspect of type Six, type Eight really represents the counterphobic approach to life par excellence.


Or some say that cp6 and/or sx6 deny they have fears but then others state this:



> Though being a gut type,* 8s are largely disconnected from their "fear". Their process of attention (I'll link you to Palmer in a bit) is such that fear tends to not register much consciously*; when it does, they're likely to bulldoze over it.


So therefore according to the quote above 8's would also tend to deny they have fears if it tends to not register much consciously. 

The problem is that when it comes to understanding a 6, everybody is focused on its similarities to other types rather than what makes a 6 a 6, and only a 6, differentiating it from every other type completely. This causes confusion between people because nobody knows what defines the core of a 6, but everyone is focused on how a 6 is so similar to other types (8s, 4s, and 9's being the most likely to be compared too). So if people want to understand a 6, or any type for that matter then stop with all this looking for similarities and start focusing on what makes a specific type that specific type, pointing out all of the properties that *exclusively* belongs to it, and it only. If you want to understand the phobic and counter phobic aspects of a 6, then start with the core then proceed to see how the core is directed when at phobic stages and counter phobic stages, without comparing it to some other type. If you say that 6's have no properties exclusive to it, then there really isn't any proof that the type 6 exists at all, which just puts a dent into the enneagram theory as a whole.

So if we're going to continue on this discussion of what makes a 6, or if someone is going to assume that the Op is a 6 instead of an 8 or whatever type they want to identify with, then start presenting some facts *exclusive* to the 6 that *no other type* can exemplify, in order to clearly illuminate the lines that separate it from all other types. this goes for understanding and identifying all other types too, stop focusing on how similar they are and start focusing on the properties that are *exclusive* to them, differentiating them in the most clearest of ways from every other type.


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

@Kollinhausin From what you have expressed so far, I see that you have shown many traits of type 6. The mannerism in which 5 and 7s inquire the Enneagram are different: 5s tend to investigate source of mystery privately, while 7s tend to be more open to subjects which lights up their interest. 

1) What are your views on trust, reliability/credibility, and authority?
2) How important is it for you to make sure about something?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Deus Absconditus_

I addressed the jumping from the plane part above lol. 

With cp6, the thing is becoming accustomed to consciously counteracting their existential anxiety deal to the point where it doesn't register to them as an anxious state of being. It's normalized. It's the usual. It's not the same thing as the 8's unconscious denial of fear. It's the normalization of their head centre anxiety as counterphobia is oriented to countering it/moving against it rather than away from it. Where fear is concerned (fear tends to be about something specific or a known or definite threat, whereas anxiety is a generalized hyper-awareness of uncertainty, instability etc. in the type specific sense, and a generalized and vague apprehension about the possibility of threats emerging in the general psychology sense), both 8s and cp 6s may move to overcome it. Being a head type, 6s are, relative to 8s, more vigilant to fear and more aware of it. They may consciously counteract anxiety to the point of normalizing it, but fear is not the type's blindspot as is the case with 8. The denial of fear in cp6s is considered to be conscious, for the most part. 

With the 8, fear is the blind spot, which is to say that it is unconsciously denied, and when it rises to surface, they deal with it or overcome it. 8s don't experience the 6's head centre anxiety/hyper awareness of uncertainty etc. They are less present to fear than 6s, even if both types may move to overcome it.

As for your point about describing 8 and 6 separately, I see the merit to that. If someone is up for it, they are more than welcome to type up and share their descriptions or descriptions by authors they find useful, individually for 6 and 8. Since my own posts were specific responses to compare and contrast threads, I find it convenient to share material I already have posted on the forums, which is useful to the OP. That is the extent of my investment in his typing process.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Quang said:


> @_Kollinhausin_ From what you have expressed so far, I see that you have shown many traits of type 6. The mannerism in which 5 and 7s inquire the Enneagram are different: 5s tend to investigate source of mystery privately, while 7s tend to be more open to subjects which lights up their interest.
> 
> 1) What are your views on trust, reliability/credibility, and authority?
> 2) How important is it for you to make sure about something?


I am pretty sure I am type 8, and was about ready to close up the shop on that. 

If you see many signs of type 6, can you share these? Or is it 'vibes'?

But since you asked:

Trust means that you trust someone. They are with you. You should do it if you think someone is trustworthy. I personally can tell if someone is trustworthy or not pretty easily, although I have been wrong now and then.

Reliability is like dependability; it's like trust except not personal.

Authority means that people obey you and/or listen to you. It usually requires an office plus capacity in the office to support. However, there is also personal authority, and authority based on competence. Basically, anyone who can offer others something and who isn't giving off vibes of uncertainty can gain some kind of authority. 

It depends on whether I need to make sure about something. If it doesn't matter, then I don't care. Like I don't know if the modding on PerC is fair, and I don't care because I've never run into the mods. But if it does matter, like if the mods were telling me that I was in violation because I made two threads in Enneagram forum including a type-me thread despite the fact that there is a sub-forum for it, I would agree that I did know there was a sub-forum, wanted more views and ignored it for that reason.

So I would assume that they were fair.

But if an individual member came up to me and expressed that view, I would realize it was none of their business, and I wouldn't listen.

This actually intermixes with the authority question as well.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

@All: 

I have concluded my typing process for now; if something doesn't add up I might revisit it later, but right now 8 works for me. 

I think I might buy a book on this. 

Any recommendations?


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Vajra said:


> Precisely. As you can tell from my posted excerpts, I consider cp6s retarded tryhards. You missed the bit about throwing TV sets at kittens just to prove they are a badass.
> 
> p.s. lol I read your question as facetious. I see you're asking about the RH quote. no, I don't think so. It's very short-sighted to assume that any time a 6 does something adventurous, they are countering fear or proving to people they are unafraid. I could see some 6s doing that, if insecure, but I don't consider that the norm.


Well to a point I do think it's a bit like that. Tribal tatoos, body building, death skulls, bad ass biker shirts.. They're everywhere.

CP6 is more about conquering fear just to conquer fear and 8 is more about getting shit done without letting anything get in their way in a fuck off kind of way.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

BroNerd said:


> Fictional Type 8s
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be perfectly fair, sans the first clip that looks more like uhealthy 8, the Lunk one is extremely exaggerated and caricature, and the second one of Jack Bauer doesn't really add much depth either. I get that you are trying to illustrate a point, but wouldn't it be more meaningful to pick clips that contain some more nuance? 

I mean, I think I can make a reasonable argument for that Harry Potter, a character most are familiar with, is actually likely an 8w9: 






You actually see him manifesting several characteristics of the type here: 

1. Blame and denial
It's actually Ron's fault for putting himself in this situation, because he thinks he laid out all information to Ron and refuses to take responsibility for the emotional situation Ron is now in, including denying Ron's emotional reality and why he feels deceived. According to Harry himself, he's injustly accused for a situation he feels was something he already handled to the best of his ability and that he was as just and fair as he possibly could in how he handled it. He staunchly believes in his own innocence, or tries to maintain a position of such, and redirects the blame outwards at Ron. It's Ron's fault, not his, for not admitting that he is responsible for the situation he is in, now. Also clear manifestation of 8 logic in how every man is out for himself and has to take responsibility for his own life, only. There will be no one there to support you, guide you, or nurture you. I think this is part of the primary source of their conflict due to Ron being a 6; his reaction was probably more one trying to ultimately look for some kind of support. 

2. Brusque/direct behavior
I think it's important to note on Harry's conversation style. While yes, this is a very clear and obvious conflict so it exacerbates the situation, Harry's speaking pattern and manner of expression is more that of telling people what to do or what to think. It's not just because Harry is an ISFP and favors Se in his ego, but it's that Harry at some level probably identifies with and attempts to assume control over the environment in that way (that Harry enjoys control becomes apparent over the course of the series I think, as he is often made into a leader or takes on a leader position, among other things). Compared to Ron for example, who talks much more roundabout about things. Even in this conflict, Harry takes on the position of attempting to direct and control the situation in how he interacts with Ron. 

3. Self-blame and denial of vulnerability
Becomes more apparent at the end where Harry reveals that he is probably way harder on himself than he is anyone else, where he says that he's very aware of the situation and what's going on and how he doesn't allow himself to be affected because he feels he cannot be. The real kicker comes when Ron begins to jab at Harry's past, because he is probably aware at some level how it connects to Harry's sense of loss of innocence and how he blames himself for the death of his parents, especially his mom, and how his life developed as a result living with the Dudleys etc, which was hardly a just upbringing. 

I could write more I suppose, I really thought about how I think Harry Potter is actually a great fictional example of an 8 because of how his life and character development mirrors the type quite well, but that's kind of beyond the scope of this thread.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Vajra said:


> @_Deus Absconditus_
> 
> I addressed the jumping from the plane part above lol.
> 
> ...


Just so we're clear, along with making it clear for any potential readers, you are stating that 6's are consciously aware of their fear, but consciously deny they have fear, therefore they are consciously lying about not having fears, while 8's are genuinely unaware of having fears and if it ever becomes conscious then 8's instinctively react by dealing with it hands on, whereas the 6 is constantly searching for fears in the external due to internal anxiety of uncertainty? If this is true, then would it be correct to state that at the core of 6's there is an inherent uncertainty, while 8's do not share this uncertainty at all? These are facts about the types that should be illuminated because I doubt that a person who is constantly uncertain is going to identify as not suffering from thoughts of uncertainty, and I doubt that a person who is constantly certain is going to identify as suffering from a constant state of uncertainty. This would help differentiate the two types in a very clear fashion, in order to limit the act of confounding and having a misunderstanding of the two.

Also another part that would help differentiate the two completely from each other is the fact, if you agree with the content of the questions above, is that 6's are constantly scanning for fears in the external world, while 8's are just reactive to what the perceive as threats, where one is consciously searching for it while the other is just reacting to it when its presented.



> As for your point about describing 8 and 6 separately, I see the merit to that. If someone is up for it, they are more than welcome to type up and share their descriptions or descriptions by authors they find useful, individually for 6 and 8. *Since my own posts were specific responses to compare and contrast threads, I find it convenient to share material I already have posted on the forums, which is useful to the OP. That is the extent of my investment in his typing process.*


Understood and that's a valid reason behind the content of your posts in this thread, and I'm glad you see the merit in describing, not only the exclusive differences between 6's and 8's, but also the exclusive differences between all types. This has been one of the main problems with this part of the forum (enneagram), because nobody is essentially trying to understand the core that separates each type but instead how one type can do what another type can do. Yea, its good to notice similarities, but similarities dont define types, its the differences that do, and if we want to understand what a type is then we need to forego how they are similar to other types and pay more attention the the exclusive properties that belong to each type alone (separate from all other types). 

I completely understand the frustration people have when trying to figure out their type, or even just trying to understand the types when coming to this part of the forum, because so many members are focused on proving "how a 6 can be a total badass like an 8" or whatever similarity they are focused on proving. This confusion of types will only stop when people stop looking for similarities, and start focusing on exclusive core aspects that belong to each type separately and alone. I'm not stating that you specifically do this, but that its a common theme that illuminates itself the brightest specifically on this part of the forum.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Amaterasu said:


> wat. Hope you're not entirely serious, because it sounds like a trivialization.


I'm not saying all CP6 jumps out of airplanes, but they seem to do things just to put a "check" on their current fear in their head.

Edit:
So that they can move on to the next one?


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Kinetic said:


> I'm not saying all CP6 jumps out of airplanes, but they seem to do things just to put a "check" on their current fear in their head.
> 
> Edit:
> So that they can move on to the next one?


You probably shouldn't take this any farther.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Kollinhausin said:


> You probably shouldn't take this any farther.


Oh really?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kinetic said:


> Oh really?


Yeah, really, because that line of reasoning is frankly a very shallow way to understand and depict 6s. If a 6 and an 8 both jump out of the plain because they enjoy the thrill, how will you know who is a 6 and who is an 8 just by looking at who is jumping out of the plane?


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

Kollinhausin said:


> I am pretty sure I am type 8, and was about ready to close up the shop on that.
> 
> If you see many signs of type 6, can you share these? Or is it 'vibes'?
> 
> ...


I am not rejecting the possibility of you having an inner 8, it is entirely possible to have a 6-8 combo where the individual gravitates towards testing the physical boundaries of the suspicious source for truth and credibility. The whole idea of publicly testing the validity of a belief system (the Enneagram) is very 6ish whistleblower and especially when you decide to involve a group into the discussion with the provocative title "Come disprove me". Your vocabulary so far strikes me less firmly stated for a 8 core and has more of a 6ish "maybe" "what if..?" doubt. Furthermore, your language is situational like a 6- "it depends" is namely one of the most commonly used phrases: 



> But I don't believe that introspection is a valuable way to learn things. Not for me, anyway. If people used to go around making an issue of fake 8s, then there is a good chance at some point there were a lot of fake 8s. You say they were trolls. Okay, then maybe I didn't need to make this thread.
> 
> Am I correct in my understanding that Enneagram tends not to accept the basic reliability of the individual when it comes to relating his/her own experience and desires?
> 
> ...


A core 8 would typically invest more time in studying the material (like 5's self-sufficiency), rather than poking the truth from others. This is my perception.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Entropic said:


> Yeah, really, because that line of reasoning is frankly a very shallow way to understand and depict 6s. If a 6 and an 8 both jump out of the plain because they enjoy the thrill, how will you know who is a 6 and who is an 8 just by looking at who is jumping out of the plane?


It's not the jumping out of the plane, it's the why someone is jumping out of the plane. Frankly I think it's a much higher possibility for a CP6 to do just that example.


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

@Entropic how would you type this guy?


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

Kinetic said:


> It's not the jumping out of the plane, it's the why someone is jumping out of the plane. Frankly I think it's a much higher possibility for a CP6 to do just that example.


Did you know that CP6 likes chocolate chip ice cream while type 8s like it extra dark? Why? Because type 8s are badasses of course!


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Quang said:


> Did you know that CP6 likes chocolate chip ice cream while type 8s like it extra dark? Why? Because type 8s are badasses of course!


Wow! I prefer vanilla!


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Kollinhausin_ 

I am curious about what you said above re: being sure of your 8 typing. I couldn't tell if you had just decided at 8. Were you at any point considering 6 for your type or were you basically set on 8? Or perhaps, you were establishing you were an 8, around these parts, by demonstrating that instead of avoiding a cp 6 typing, you were willing to take it on. 

@_Entropic_,

I'll address you and talk more generally about my experiences. 

I saw your post before you edited out the bit about "having a personal beef" (I quote), which is exactly what I said your problem was here - a personal issue, because you didn't match the alleged unrealistic 'stereotype' of 8 peddled around these parts, apparently by me, which of course you couldn't corroborate with anything, as expected, but that discussion is over and done with. 

The point was to let you know that I saw where you conceded to my point about the reason behind the whole fiasco having been entirely personal on your end. You said prior to your edit, and on another thread I posted on recently, that not having your typing affirmed (or people questioning it, which in reality has essentially been people giving you feedback when you ask for it, and no one owes you anything on a forum, certainly not agreeing with your typing for the sake of it) instilled doubt in you about not being an 8. Once again, this is your own problem or your own struggle to come to terms with whatever type you choose. Looking for a 'threat' here to bash your head, collapse and bleed against will not give you the confidence in your typing that you are seeking. 

You said to me that if only I got to know you, I would agree with your typing. You said the same thing to @_mimesis_. This says that two people openly disagreeing with your typing has just not been sitting well with you. My disagreement with your typing is no secret, and I have directly addressed it on the appropriate thread where you asked for feedback. If I were interested in proving you wrong or further exacerbating your doubt and resentment, I would have used this thread to make that case, but I didn't. Firstly, as I said, I don't give a fuck how you type. If you ask for my opinion on a thread specific to that purpose, and I decide to share it, that will be that. Secondly, I don't see type 6 as some type of trump card to use in a debate. Other than that, there is no reason why you should have to go frothing at the mouth as in the past or get bent out of shape and end up looking all out of sorts and awkward. I know I can be condescending as fuck; but for a change, that's not what I am doing here. 

I genuinely find that you are putting way too much fucking stock in people's opinions and reacting to them in ways you wouldn't have if you were a 100% irreversibly convinced of your typing. You admit to vacillating on this, yourself. Maybe you should find a way to disentangle your sense of self and your trust in your own judgment from what people think here. You can't change anyone's mind. Nor is that owed to you. You can, however, learn to live with your own decision and decide not to be moved, especially to the point of odd overreactions and deliberate attempts to stir shit (these are very very transparent), by others' opinions. I know it sounds like I am trivializing the possibility of it being personally invalidating, but that's just the nature of life, online or off. There's no point to letting anyone get your goat that way. Your time and energy are yours. Your decisions are your own. 

Hell, I don't meet any archetype. When I joined this place, you've read the posts where I talked about the incredibly shitty treatment I dealt with all over an 8 typing. Mine wasn't an isolated experience. It happened to a lot of people and far more egregiously than it ever has since. Back then, there was no rule about unsolicited typings. I couldn't post around much without having type 6 used as an ad hominem. Completely unrelated threads would get derailed over this, even if I ignore the comments, all because I typed at 8 and told off people on my thread who disrespected me, made a mockery of my history of abuse, after asking pointed questions about that I was dumb enough to answer very openly and dumber still to believe were posed with nothing but an intent to help, and went so far as to pathologize me more than once. The thread wasn't left alone even after I retired as I was traveling. I would not degrade myself or my experiences here by sharing this as a poor-me story. I am sharing it to, in this context, to tell you that I know it's difficult when people open up on a forum and then either get mistreated or perceive that they have been mistreated during the course of a sensitive issue like typing. It's a messy, difficult, emotional charged process, for everyone. 

I thought about this yesterday, and all dumb forum spats aside, I felt a wee bit of empathy when I saw your post before your edit, which I thought was a surprising show of vulnerability and honesty about the problems you've had here. Then you left the bit unchanged about needing to have mims and I know you better, which basically was an extension of your previous point anyway, so I am not dragging out an info you didn't want out. You already talked about it on the 8 forum. So anyway, you are free to think I am saying this to elevate my status XD or whatever else you want or to look "good". You are more than free to read opportunism into this. But if there's one thing you take away from my response, let it be that only you can overcome your problems with the forum perception of your typing. No one else will change for you. This is an internal battle. 

As I was saying, I don't meet any archetypes. I've had a complex and complicated past, replete with trauma etc. It was a great life and still is, but it was way far outside the realm of usual/common. This presents unique challenges. My first typing at 8 was years ago. I typed at 3 back in 2011, and I typed that way until last year, when my best friend suggested 7 and urged I, at least, ponder it for core. That was the start of an interesting journey. I was in no hurry, as I said I was learning from 7 and 3. That's all that matters. Some asked my reasoning respectfully or asked why I was considering 7, which was fine. Others passive aggressively, took the time to try and undermine the fact that I was even considering 7 and 3, when as an 'authority' (one I have never claimed or cared to..cus lolz it's a fucking forum), I was supposed to be omniscient. A couple of people goaded me about this for a long time, before I "addressed" them. By and large, I have had nothing but wonderful experiences since the shitty one years ago.

However, repeated attempts to undermine my journey and space did eventually register. It had nothing to do with people disagreeing with my typing, which is their right, and it doesn't bother me one bit. It had to do with a lack of respect for my space, one which I have always shown to people, most certainly and especially when they have brought either a complex and traumatic past and/or depression etc. I've been there, done that. These are not things I take lightly. 

So, I've had a bad experience related to typing in the past. This is when 8s were literally considered "sadistic" on the forum lol, and that was one of the reasons that was presented for my not being an 8 LOL, besides ofc saying I thought I was one because I needed to overcome my inner sixy weakness to deal with my past, which btw, I was told I was mostly lying about to yanno..sound tuff. Back then, 8 was mythologized like ...to the point where one wasn't even discussing a typing applicable to a human. And in the last year, I've sort of seen a teeny bit of immaturity from people about my typing, even from people who have never had any issues with me personally. It was just juvenile, basically. 

Even now, I am sure there are people who disagree with my type. I've always known I was an Id type, and I typed at 7 fix, so that was hardly a big switch, but that's irrelevant. People disagree, and it's fine. Some think I am a 3 (which is very sensible a suggestion). I am sure some think I am a 6, which is also just fine. My issue has been the usage of 6 as an invalidating, insulting ad hominem, and using deliberately negative reasoning, while being completely closed off to what the person has to say about their experiences. A lot of members, 6 and non 6, have talked about this openly. This has nothing to do with type itself, for me. I made a shits and giggles anonymous poll in Spam, and 2-3 people voted for 6, which is cool. There are likely other members who think I am a 6. It's their opinion, and that's just all right. If they have negative 6 stereotypes as reasoning, that says more about them. If they have meaningful reasons, I appreciate their effort.

I've discussed the fix with friends who brought it up, @_Animal_ and @_Flatlander_ did a while back when playing with my tritype. I talked it out with them. I responded to @_Vergil_'s query in PM about how I related to 6 and 8. In general, I accept that people will not always agree with my typing. That's that. I don't need to "date them" to convince them, even in jest hahaha. I don't need to convince anyone. I have nothing to prove. I'd rather focus on myself. Like I said, barring intentional disrespect, this is an internal struggle or internal striving, for everyone. 

My last point is about logic. I won't comment on your typing, but I will say that simply dating a 6 does not give you access to all there is to know about the 6 mind. Type as whatever suits your fancy, but if you wish to argue your typing, such weak and flimsy reasoning won't do. It's, among other things, a hasty generalization if I ever saw one.

To sum up, I am going to keep agreeing or disagreeing with you as usual, theoretically or whatever, but it was refreshing to see you display honesty like that.


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

Kinetic said:


> Wow! I prefer vanilla!


Unfortunately you are type 1 then... Vanilla: 100% perfect flavor


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Quang said:


> Unfortunately you are type 1 then... Vanilla: 100% perfect flavor


That's how I like it!


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> You probably shouldn't take this any farther.


Lmao love this


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Entropic said:


> And you don't talk out of yours, lol? If you admit you are not an expert, how can you even begin to validate whether I was talking out of my ass or not, whether it is bullshit or not? The point is, you can't. So touché.
> 
> @mimesis Yeah keep acting obtuse. You wanna pull the quotation game, I could also go pull Maitri who thinks that sx 6 is not per se necessarily the cp6 and thus clearly challenges both Naranjo and that Fauvres quote you brought up (I don't necessarily agree with it either, as I think my personal observations show that sx got nothing to do with cp and while there could be merit to the tritype playing a role, I inherently do not subscribe much to the tritype theory anymore so it's a moot point), or I could pull up some R&H who make the claim that 6s obviously all possess both traits of phobic and counterphobic and it's an obvious range and not some black and white set in stone where they are _either_ of them.


It's fascinating to see the sacrifices you are willing to make in your attempt to deflect my statements. 

Tell me more about your "observations" that Sx instinct has nothing to do with CP. It's a non-debate as far as I'm concerned. 

Naranjo only stated that Sx6 was *the most* counter-phobic type. Exceptions are possible, sure.

Which means they are not necessarily the same, or always coinciding. But there is a relation between the two. Just think of the simple fact that, as we move closer to sexual orgasm, our fear responses are inhibited to the point of amygdoid deactivation. Sx can also be counter-shame (think of the "mad" sx4), or counter-guilt (think of the angry sx1 "breaking skulls in virtue of the excellence of his noble intentions"). Conversely, there's ample research that relates fear, phobias, disgust to sexual dysfunction. Of course Sx doesn't necessarily apply to sex or sex drive, but I don't think it makes much of a difference if you take a different angle, the dynamics are pretty much the same. 

But sure, cling to "not necessarily" all you want, if you think it provides any significant insight, or to address a need to ascertain yourself. You don't offer any insight, you just make a claim, while basically it's nothing more than deflection. And, you can call me what you like. 



Entropic said:


> A 6 is indeed a 6, because they still work internally the same. If they didn't, the literature would go to great lengths to explain how the inner working of a phobic 6 is so dramatically different from that of a counterphobic one, and the truth is that there is not a single piece of literature who does this, at least not that I have read, and I think I have read quite a fair bit now (Fauvres, Maitri, R&H, Naranjo, probably gonna order Palmer and Almaas next).


But see the problem is that you don't see it, despite the examples I gave you, because you are unable to reconcile opposites, perhaps because your thinking is linear rather than global. That's why you can't get your head around the notion of counter-type. You assume that motivations (instinctual drives) are aligned and pointing in the same direction. If you had done serious introspection you'd have discovered contradictions in your behavior (the ego keeps cognitive dissonance from awareness for self-serving purposes). So yeah, you like to say it's about "underlying motivations", but you need a book to read what your motivations are. Long time ago I needed to do serious introspection because I was clueless how to explain certain contradictory behavior. You can only make progress when you are honest with yourself. 



Entropic said:


> I've had the experience to observe a 6 who came across as primarily phobic during times of stress go full force counterphobic. He didn't turn into some 8 caricature of how cp is often understood to be like on this site, that's for sure. He was still underneath all that, undeniably a 6 and very easily recognizable as such. The whole cp6 looks like 8 is way too over-blown.


And you are now confused about your own kneejerk responses. One of the things that have been consistent in your behavior as long as I have seen you here is your response saying "you totally misunderstood". You really believe you say this because you understand it all and others are stupid?



Entropic said:


> I challenge you to find one enneagram author who, when explaining the actual inner foundation of the type and I stress inner, in how their mind is actually internally wired and what they are the most focused on, as being inherently different between p and cp. Instead, you will find that the literature actually explains the 6 by and large the same and way, in fairly general manner, just mention that there are two kinds of 6s but then go on to explain the type 6 as a whole which you seem to think represents the phobic variant. It doesn't. Their passion is fear, their virtue is courage, they are all doubting, vacillating, have the integration and disintegration points at 3 and 9 and thus take on qualities of both these types and so on and so forth.


I think Katherine also explained the initial descriptions were biased to a certain subtype (or what later would be attributed to a certain subtype). Excessive True Believer certainty, which you often display is basically extreme intolerance to ambiguity (doubt), in a counterphobic way. This is same core fear, but different personality dynamic. Similarly, the counter-shame response of an sx4 can be in contempt towards the object of envy, where so4 would be more "shamefully aware". 

People have responded to Chestnut's subtypes of 4, seeing them as completely different, which may manifest and be experienced in a different way, but who understands the type and is able to reconcile opposites, will see they are essentially the same type. And mind you, it's just a categorization of type. Frank and Jenny may both be 6, they have their own particular individual conditioned personality.



Entropic said:


> Are you going to challenge everything @Arya has written on this site thus far too, addressing the inner workings of type 6 and how they feel about things, as only being addressed to phobic 6s? I find a lot of what she has to say about the type to be very elucidating since she has after all, direct experience of what it means to be like as a 6. Phobic or counterphobic. Dismissing it as irrelevant or only relevant to phobic 6s is quite offensive to the time she takes to write it down, and it goes to show that you don't understand what counterphobic is. There it is, real experiential understanding of what it is like to be a 6, and it fits the literature perfectly.
> 
> I mean seriously, I already told you once but I'll do it again - you keep pigeonholing on something you do not understand because you keep looking at it from an armchair's length and think you know-it-all. You fucking don't. A 6 is a 6, and they all work the same or they wouldn't be 6s. That's the definition of what a 6 is. If they do not adhere to it, they are not one. It's that simple.


Lol, I haven't read every single post of @Arya so I can't say I agree with everything. But she knows how much I value her qualities, as she wasn't afraid to ask my judgement on @Vajra 's thread. 

This is one more example of your strategy of merely "deflecting" because you don't provide any new insight with this argument. What is the significance of mentioning her? Is this an attempt to mobilize her against me? ("dismissing", "offensive"). That's just fucking sad.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

@Deus Absconditus


one of the pitfalls to something like this is that the only person who can truly differentiate themselves as one type and not another, is the person in question; and not for any other reason than everything in the end relying so heavily on the "why?" of an action. 


if we assume i'm a 6, i can answer at least two of your questions (or give some anecdotal information, more like): 

1) i wouldn't say that i consciously realize when i'm scared, or even what scares me (minus the claustrophobia), unless i'm forced to look at it. so being asked this, in my case at least, wouldn't distinguish anything. 
someone's manifestation of a type could even get to the point that the word itself (fear) takes on a whole new meaning, or maybe a person can have multiple levels of what they experience as 'fear', and then other manifestations that they wouldn't even liken to the emotion (regardless if it would fit objectively or not). 

2) this one isn't really a big deal, but i wouldn't say that i "scan my environment" (may have to eat my own words from early on...) for dangers, but that my mindset illuminates them for me--it's an unconscious process (or the part that's looking, paying attention _to_ my surroundings is). 


i can see a lot of room for 6-reactions/behavior/etc., that one could at once be unaware of it's fears--or the fact that their own body is readying itself _because_ they feel threatened--and naturally pick up on "unfavorable aspects to the environment", only to then act in a more outward, aggressive manner. 
action has an effect on the one acting, as well as the surroundings; if a person continues the same patterns of behavior and it becomes a part of their personality, they may not answer in a fashion that a 6 is expected to respond with (same with an 8 or any other type). and if the two types already have similar patterns of behavior--in a venn diagram-like way--then it's likely that a person will still confuse themselves and others. 

even though objective action, and what amounts to a person's self-description, can narrow the range, explaining and hashing out why someone had a more anger-driven reaction/etc., is probably the most cutting method (and probably allowing them room to really figure it out, as opposed to just instantly realizing a facet to their personality that they've likely been ignoring for their entire lives, as soon as it's proposed to them--neither here or there, just while i'm on the topic). 

hell, even types that aren't prone to the above behavior may have co-opted the strategy somewhere throughout life (for reasons outside of both 6 and 8), and have their own typing confused for the mentioned behavior "belonging" in the realm of a different type (although, that why i guess there's tri-types)... i don't know, i guess what i'm trying to say is that the reason for what's seen, is much more important than what's seen, in the end.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Deus Absconditus said:


> Just so we're clear, along with making it clear for any potential readers, you are stating that 6's are consciously aware of their fear, but consciously deny they have fear, therefore they are consciously lying about not having fears


That is a strawman if I ever saw one . The first point I made was that they consciously confront their fear when it arises just like 8s, although they are more aware of fear because it's not their blindspot and because they are a head type. 

When the literature addresses the denial of fear being conscious in cp6s, this means negating the conscious awareness of fear. One example would be experiencing a fear of heights, and then telling oneself the fear didn't matter, not that it doesn't exist. Denial has more than one meaning. It means claiming something is not true (or let's present in case of fear). OR It means a refutation or rebuttal or negation. In order for a 6 to consciously deny (or negate) fear, they would first have to be aware of it. This is what I just said about about their fear being more in their conscious awareness relative to 8s, but the existential anxiety of 6 being normalized to the point they don't recognize it as being there. This would be the interpretation you applied, albeit wrongly to fear rather than anxiety. A lot of Cp 6s say that they don't experience anxiety. A lot of Enneagram theorists talk about cp 6s not being aware of their anxiety. 

As for lying, anyone who says they have no fears is lying, if not to others, then to themselves. 

Hope that helps.




> While 8's are genuinely unaware of having fears and if it ever becomes conscious then 8's instinctively react by dealing with it hands on


It's not about lying and being genuine. You have entirely pulled those value judgments out of thin air. Read above. 



> If this is true, then would it be correct to state that at the core of 6's there is an inherent uncertainty, while 8's do not share this uncertainty at all?


You may have misunderstood my point, but this is an excellent and absolutely vital question that people rarely raise, if at all, in the Enneagram community.

At the core of being human, there is inherent uncertainty/ "not knowing". This is a part of the human condition. So much of Buddhist teaching addresses how to become comfortable with uncertainty/transience. It would be inaccurate to say that 8s feel no uncertainty or don't share a certain core of sensitivity to uncertainty that everyone does. However, it triggers 6 in a manner that the type's core issues cluster around it, because anxiety is considered the type's passion (an underlying and entrenched emotional response to reality, resulting from the loss of contact with Being). 



> These are facts about the types that should be illuminated because I doubt that a person who is constantly uncertain is going to identify as not suffering from thoughts of uncertainty, and I doubt that a person who is constantly certain is going to identify as suffering from a constant state of uncertainty. This would help differentiate the two types in a very clear fashion, in order to limit the act of confounding and having a misunderstanding of the two.


Again, no 6 is "constantly uncertain". That sounds like pathology. When cp6s normalize their awareness of uncertainty, it means they cope with it through testing, questioning, projection etc. They don't experience "uncertainty" as "anxiety". It's experienced as "wanting to know", wanting to seek clarity, testing for where people stand. To the cp 6, "wanting to know more" or seek more clarity is not "anxiety". It's just living. This is an in-built bias. This is normal to the 6. Phobics experience this more as "anxiety" because they move towards it, so experience it much more directly.


> Also another part that would help differentiate the two completely from each other is the fact, if you agree with the content of the questions above, is that 6's are constantly scanning for fears in the external world, while 8's are just reactive to what the perceive as threats, where one is consciously searching for it while the other is just reacting to it when its presented.


I wouldn't say "constantly" scanning. That sounds very pathologically paranoid. It's no wonder a lot of people act like the typing is akin to a cancer diagnosis XD. 

But yes, 6s experience much more anticipatory anxiety. 6s, even cp, see them on the wrong side of the power scale, in an uncertain world, so their psyche is geared towards contingencies and threat detection. It's not constant, but the tendency is there.

8s minimize threats and view themselves as being larger than potential challenges (Palmer explains this well in her attentional pattern segment), and so they are more prone to reacting to threats when they arise, rather than applying mental energy towards detecting them in advance. This anticipatory anxiety is also part of the 6's "existential anxiety". An 8 can, of course, scan for a threat in advance, if needed, but it's not going to be their default pattern.



> Understood and that's a valid reason behind the content of your posts in this thread, and I'm glad you see the merit in describing, not only the exclusive differences between 6's and 8's, but also the exclusive differences between all types. This has been one of the main problems with this part of the forum (enneagram), because nobody is essentially trying to understand the core that separates each type but instead how one type can do what another type can do. Yea, its good to notice similarities, but similarities dont define types, its the differences that do, and if we want to understand what a type is then we need to forego how they are similar to other types and pay more attention the the exclusive properties that belong to each type alone (separate from all other types).


Indeed.



> I completely understand the frustration people have when trying to figure out their type, or even just trying to understand the types when coming to this part of the forum, because so many members are focused on proving "how a 6 can be a total badass like an 8" or whatever similarity they are focused on proving. This confusion of types will only stop when people stop looking for similarities, and start focusing on exclusive core aspects that belong to each type separately and alone. I'm not stating that you specifically do this, but that its a common theme that illuminates itself the brightest specifically on this part of the forum.


I know what you mean. Back then, it used to be reflexive for people to say 6s weren't less than etc., because there used to be a lot of threads mocking the type. It's obviously not the best way to explain the differences between the two types. I don't think people who do that are really trying to provide substantive feedback on the type, as much as addressing a forum issue.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Quang said:


> I am not rejecting the possibility of you having an inner 8, it is entirely possible to have a 6-8 combo where the individual gravitates towards testing the physical boundaries of the suspicious source for truth and credibility. The whole idea of publicly testing the validity of a belief system (the Enneagram) is very 6ish whistleblower and especially when you decide to involve a group into the discussion with the provocative title "Come disprove me". Your vocabulary so far strikes me less firmly stated for a 8 core and has more of a 6ish "maybe" "what if..?" doubt. Furthermore, your language is situational like a 6- "it depends" is namely one of the most commonly used phrases:
> 
> 
> 
> A core 8 would typically invest more time in studying the material (like 5's self-sufficiency), rather than poking the truth from others. This is my perception.


Well, that's very interesting. I can tell you that my way of putting things in this thread is exactly how I do it in real life, and it annoys an Se Ti I think is an 8; if I'm asking a question I'll outline how I am imaging their thinking, and then tack on "Or do you think something else?"

So you could probably label my wanting to conceptualize their state of mind as a 6 thing.

You might also be able to label my willingness to consider 6 a 6ish thing; troubleshooting, so to speak.

As for the thread, I have a fondness for extreme openness. I love it and think it is very admirable. If you knew me in real life, and if you were a family member, you'd know everything and anything you wanted to know about me; I'll discuss anything, and in fact tend to push my views onto people. If I'm dealing with an interesting person, I like to create a space of complete openness to where I get the feeling (and I presume they do) that we've 'merged' or are related, or something along those lines. That's been true since I was a small child. However, once you reach that point there is nowhere else to go, so I tend to use up the full potential of the relationship in one sitting.

Whenever I'm in a conflict, if you imagine someone pushing at me verbally, I react by just pushing back if it's not that big of a thing, but if it is, and if the idea crosses my mind, I like to enormously raise the stakes, like to say "If you want to do this, we're going to go all out." But I really mean it, I'm not consciously afraid, more excited than anything else. I tend to take a short-sighted view of conflict once I'm into it; I try to avoid any serious conflict but if I'm engaged, then I forget my own interests and my raising of the stakes isn't a bluff; I mean it. If it was a bluff, I wouldn't be taken seriously, just as I don't take seriously when I see someone bluffing in a conflict. 

On the other hand, I do remember my own interest is in avoiding conflicts before they happen, so I don't try to make them happen. 

Another thing is, I see myself as this person who can do anything if I just try. But it isn't sufficient for me to just believe that (which might be the more 8ish thing), I need to prove it to myself. So I abandoned my initial path in life just so I could prove to myself that if I wanted to become a scientist, I could. And so I got myself into science based on that. Thing is that I don't really like it for itself, and I feel like I've proven myself intellectually now, so now I want to go into business and make a lot of money so that I will actually have some ability to do things. (Side note: Science is, financially speaking, not necessarily the best field to go into.)

I will say that I am definitely driven by the idea of not being this cloistered intellectual person that I grew up as; I have a primary need to believe that I can do anything, and I demonstrated that first by doing something totally different from my previous intellectual focus, and now by leaving an intellectual focus altogether. I don't want to be a monk. I don't want to live a sheltered life. 

In that sense, I strongly identify with Teddy Roosevelt, however he has been typed; I'd say that expanding my reach into everything is a big dream of mine.

After quickly Googling Teddy Roosevelt, I see a bunch of different typings so so much good that does . . .

Anyhow, what do you say to that?


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> Another thing is, I see myself as this person who can do anything if I just try. But it isn't sufficient for me to just believe that (which might be the more 8ish thing), I need to prove it to myself. So I abandoned my initial path in life just so I could prove to myself that if I wanted to become a scientist, I could. And so I got myself into science based on that. Thing is that I don't really like it for itself, and I feel like I've proven myself intellectually now, so now I want to go into business and make a lot of money so that I will actually have some ability to do things. (Side note: Science is, financially speaking, not necessarily the best field to go into.)
> 
> I will say that I am definitely driven by the idea of not being this cloistered intellectual person that I grew up as; I have a primary need to believe that I can do anything, and I demonstrated that first by doing something totally different from my previous intellectual focus, and now by leaving an intellectual focus altogether. I don't want to be a monk. I don't want to live a sheltered life.


Now that we're back on the topic of your type, parts of this are useful pieces of information. 

Why do you feel you need to be able to do "anything?"


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Vajra said:


> @_Kollinhausin_
> 
> I am curious about what you said above re: being sure of your 8 typing. I couldn't tell if you had just decided at 8. Were you at any point considering 6 for your type or were you basically set on 8? Or perhaps, you were establishing you were an 8, around these parts, by demonstrating that instead of avoiding a cp 6 typing, you were willing to take it on.


I went into this kind of primed by this video:






I have stated earlier in this thread that I sympathize with this YouTube video maker because he reminds me of my father. And throughout my life I've seen people stick it to him out of malice and jealousy (how he presents it, and how this guy presents it). I've literally heard these exact things from my father.

And I view this kind of person as very vulnerable to attack by verbally quick people; I see them as being the kind of people who are bad at office politics and so on. As he says at 2:58, he doesn't see his own vulnerabilities. I see them because to me they look pretty glaring, and I get really mad at people who would take advantage of them, as I say for personal reasons.

And so I took an offensive stance at first here because I was expecting entrenched opposition, as well as because I just thought it would be neat to see if I could make a big splash. 

I also am genuinely interested in this system, and all the other things I said were true as well; I just had a lot of reasons for doing what I did the way I did, and I'm not sure how they all mix together, honestly. 

I don't know, that's why I don't believe in introspection, at the end of the day I did what I did, and who knows why. It doesn't matter that much, it's just an online forum. What does matter to me, though, is if people are misleading people. So I'm wary of that.


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

Kollinhausin said:


> Another thing is, I see myself as this person who can do anything if I just try. But it isn't sufficient for me to just believe that (which might be the more 8ish thing), I need to prove it to myself. So I abandoned my initial path in life just so I could prove to myself that if I wanted to become a scientist, I could. And so I got myself into science based on that. Thing is that I don't really like it for itself, and I feel like I've proven myself intellectually now, so now I want to go into business and make a lot of money so that I will actually have some ability to do things. (Side note: Science is, financially speaking, not necessarily the best field to go into.)
> 
> I will say that I am definitely driven by the idea of not being this cloistered intellectual person that I grew up as; I have a primary need to believe that I can do anything, and I demonstrated that first by doing something totally different from my previous intellectual focus, and now by leaving an intellectual focus altogether. I don't want to be a monk. I don't want to live a sheltered life.


Why is it important for you to 'prove yourself'? What would this do for you?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Kollinhausin_

I like your honesty, especially the bit about your father. I see you did this to exonerate DJ, whom you view as an underdog. I won't be watching that video. I can't take him seriously for the life of me. As for vulnerability, I haven't seen someone be as unaware of how vulnerable they are while wearing that vulnerablility on their sleeve, as much as DJ does, in a while. 

He isn't much more than a trolling wannabe to me. However, I agree with you that his vulnerability is very obvious. He is, very likely, the type of person who easily gets taken advantage of IRL. Before he went on his 8 kick, he posted a very honest questionnaire, where he talked about these problems. It's good he is getting away from typology, because the frankly juvenile obsession with Type 8 wasn't doing him any favours. He has a better chance of growing as an individual, outside of the typology deal. Typology has an expiration date, in terms of utility, for most people. It just doesn't help those who are obviously quite insecure and struggling in ways that forums don't help or fix.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Donovan said:


> @Deus Absconditus
> 
> 
> one of the pitfalls to something like this is that the only person who can truly differentiate themselves as one type and not another, is the person in question; and not for any other reason than everything in the end relying so heavily on the "why?" of an action.


I do agree with this, but the person in question needs a criteria that clearly distinguishes one type for another or else they will never truly know what type they are if they can't tell what makes a type solely that type, and not anothers



> if we assume i'm a 6, i can answer at least two of your questions (or give some anecdotal information, more like):
> 
> 1) i wouldn't say that i consciously realize when i'm scared, or even what scares me (minus the claustrophobia), *unless i'm forced to look at it*. so being asked this, in my case at least, wouldn't distinguish anything.
> someone's manifestation of a type could even get to the point that the word itself (fear) takes on a whole new meaning, or maybe a person can have multiple levels of what they experience as 'fear', and then other manifestations that they wouldn't even liken to the emotion (regardless if it would fit objectively or not).
> ...


Bolded: if we compare what you said with the quotes that @Vajra presented, how do we know that you aren't just an 8, or how do we know that you are a 6. If 8s aren't conscious of their fears and react when they surface then it would be equivalent to stating to that 8's "don't scan their environment for fears but that their mindset illuminates them for them in an unconscious process", or " unless they are forced too look at it" that they instinctively react too.

You see how the wording of your response can easily apply to 8s if we use the quotes from @Vajra, so the question is what makes a 6 completely and utterly different than an 8. They obviously contain properties exclusive to them and not the other, but what specifically are these exclusive properties? This is what I suggest others to focus on, because simply stating that you are one type but contain characteristics of another type or only mentioning characteristics that more than one type can share doesn't really help prove to others nor yourself what type you truly are, especially if one can't differentiate the types exclusive properties from each other.

I also notice buzz words such as "Fear", "anger", "counter" etc but nobody is paying attention to how others, as you pointed out, define these words or relate to them because different people can perceive the meaning of the words differently. For instance saying 8s aren't consciously aware of their fears is a misnomer because I could easily bring up to an 8 that they fear being controlled by others which they will agree with, its not like an 8 is going to say "No I don't mind being controlled, its not that big of a deal to me". These buzz words need to be explored further because each individual person and type is going to relate to each buzz word differently. There needs to be, not only a criteria, but also a set of definitions for each term that is going to be used to describe each type, to ensure precision and accuracy of describes in order to lower the probability of mistupings and misunderstandings. 



> i can see a lot of room for 6-reactions/behavior/etc., that one could at once be unaware of it's fears--or the fact that their own body is readying itself _because_ they feel threatened--and naturally pick up on "unfavorable aspects to the environment", only to then act in a more outward, aggressive manner.
> action has an effect on the one acting, as well as the surroundings; *if a person continues the same patterns of behavior and it becomes a part of their personality, they may not answer in a fashion that a 6 is expected to respond with (same with an 8 or any other type). and if the two types already have similar patterns of behavior--in a venn diagram-like way--then it's likely that a person will still confuse themselves and others.*




This brings up another problem, enneagram is suppose to describe the differences in behavior and motivations, if two or more types can't be told apart from each other, then the question arises: " Why are they two separate types". The point of any typology is to illuminate the differences between people, enneagram is the typology that illuminates the differences between behavior and motivations between people, so each type has a distinct set of exclusive properties that set them apart from every other type, therefore each enneagram type contains a distinct set of of exclusive behavioral and motivational properties that set them apart from each other. These exclusive behavioral and motivational properties that set each enneagram type apart, and that no other type can share is what should be discussed to illuminate what defines each type separately from the rest. 

This ensures clearly understanding the criteria for what makes each type that specific type and no other type, making it easier for people to see where they clarly, precisely, and accurately fit under. If this can not be done, then there is no proof that any of these types exist, which just brings up the question "do these types even exist", if they can not distinctively, and definitely be told apart from each other, which just puts a dent into the framework and/or truthfulness of the whole theory all together.



> even though objective action, and what amounts to a person's self-description, can narrow the range, explaining and hashing out why someone had a more anger-driven reaction/etc., is probably the most cutting method (and probably allowing them room to really figure it out, as opposed to just instantly realizing a facet to their personality that they've likely been ignoring for their entire lives, as soon as it's proposed to them--neither here or there, just while i'm on the topic).
> 
> hell, even types that aren't prone to the above behavior may have co-opted the strategy somewhere throughout life (for reasons outside of both 6 and 8), and have their own typing confused for the mentioned behavior "belonging" in the realm of a different type (although, that why i guess there's tri-types)... *i don't know, i guess what i'm trying to say is that the reason for what's seen, is much more important than what's seen, in the end*.


Bold: I agree that the similarities seen between each type is less important to the reasons behind why each type displays those tendencies, but instead of focusing on how types can share outward or perceived similarities we should be focusing on what distinctively separates one type from another, including illuminating and focusing specifically on the reasonings that are exclusive to each type as to why they display tendencies that other types may share. My point is that yes different types can share similar patterns, but what makes a type distinct from all others are the patterns that exclusively belong to them, and to them alone separate from any other type. These patterns exclusive to the specific type, and how they distinctively contrast with other types, in order to bring to the surface the exclusive differences between types to ensure that people have a clear understanding of the core aspects of each type, which will help others find their true type while limiting the probability of mistyping. 

The point of this forum as a whole is to help people with their self explorations by way of typology, which itself focuses on differences between groups of people and not similarities. We should be trying to make it easier or clearer for people to understand these typologies, along with what defines each type separately from all others, instead of focusing on confounding similar traits in different groups which just further propels the misunderstandings and confusion that already dominates this forum. 

Its cool to talk about our individual definitions of the types, and how we individually view the types, but that doesn't help in truly understanding the core aspects of the type that is consistent no matter how someone else defines nor views it. Each person has a different lens, but that should never be a problem if we have clear definitions exclusive to each type because this will align all the lenses together to identify the same thing. Just like if I asked everyone to identify a rock, we all know what separates a rock from all other things, therefore no matter how many different lenses are present, they all will identify a rock instead of some non rock. Let's at least try to clarify the exclusive properties of what makes each type separate from another, just like we at a young age clarified the exclusive properties that separates a rock from all nonrocks.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Vajra No, I actually think I actually fit the stereotype very well. That's not the problem at all. The stereotype that is, if you strip it off the way the forum mythologizes the type, which, if you've been reading, was my issue all along and it wasn't just a critique aimed at you though I did mention you. It was a friend who told me to consider 8 and I was actually hesitant about it because of the forum stereotype because I at the time, for a long time kept rationalizing it as a 5 that was integrating except at some level I knew that wasn't right, and I debated type 6 with him quite thoroughly as well. Again, I've done my homework and I already told mimesis very long time ago, about a year now, that I actually openly considered what he suggested. I gave it a couple of whirls in my head over the course of several days but all I felt it did to me was making my internal state toxic because if anything what it did do, was making me feel I was becoming something I was not by trying to find something in myself that wasn't there. I trust my intuition above else and I trust where it's pointing me. My intuition told me that if I kept doing this I would destroy myself. Yet, here mimesis is, still chasing after my tail. I would say I've been pretty fucking patient in this regard, considering how I've only begun to feel fed up with it at this point. 

I feel that you, and even more so mimesis, read shit into my behavior and the motivations that underlie them that's not there or completely misattribute it as to why I think things instead of asking me why I do it, while also completely misunderstanding the character growth I've gone through the past years which is what made me reconsider my typing in the first place. So my issue has far more to do with that I feel that my behavior isn't taken for what it is when I say what something means, but is distorted to fit someone else's lens of what it is or, when I reveal parts of who I feel I am and how I choose to attribute it, is outright mocked. I didn't even type as an 8 back then, but as a 5 with an 8 fix. 

Yes, I take issue with that, because I care about my own sense of authenticity and I do like to be understood in this regard. I hold grudges long and easily, and I do not easily forgive whenever I feel someone does slight me or anyone else I care for, especially by so clearly distorting something I express to be otherwise. My comment was in this regard primarily directed at mimesis though you are also symptomatic of it. The very point is that I've told him about behavior I do that he is not privy to in person, and he still chooses to attribute it differently by entirely re-interpreting it into something I no longer recognize though I may not even myself have put it in a particular folder at the time. It gets a little frustrating, and that is really the primary source of my comment. I simply chose to phrase it facetiously.

@Kinetic You are right that it's about motivation, so why not focus on the motivation instead of the behavior?

As for the video, too long and not enough of the information I'm looking for. All I get is that he's some kind of a socionics beta ST type from this. I tend to not offer enneagram typing unless I can really have a deep interview with the person and talk about deeper things in their life, anyway.

@mimesis Nope I'm done. Not arsing to go through this shit. You are making an arbitrary distinction between phobic and counterphobic and plays it way out of proportion. You should pay attention to what Naranjo himself writes in the opening of the chapter of type 6 in C&N:



> If we use fear or cowardice to designate the ruling passion of ennea-type VI, however, we need to point out, as in the case of anger and other emotions, that this important emotional state need not be directly manifested in behavior. It may be, alternatively, manifest in the over-compensation of a conscious attitude of heroic striving. *The counter-phobic denial of fear is no different in essence from the covering up of anger through excessive gentleness and control, the covering up of selfishness through excessive yielding, and other forms of compensation manifested throughout the range of characters, particularly in some of the sub-ennea-types*.


In other words, he's saying exactly that, a 6 is a 6, phobic or counterphobic, and no matter their outwards manifestation, their internal dynamic will be by and large the same or he would, in the ensuing portion of the chapter, of course actually outlined how the there is some form of characteristic difference in their psychological disposition. He doesn't. It's really just that fucking simple.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Figure said:


> Now that we're back on the topic of your type, parts of this are useful pieces of information.
> 
> Why do you feel you need to be able to do "anything?"


Hard to say. At one level, I just do. I just can, but that sounds absurd without anything to back it up, it is absurd. So I have to put my money where my mind is. I wouldn't want to be one of those people who sit around talking but have nothing to show for it.

If I'm going back to my early childhood, one way I can rationalize this is to say that I was able to do anything I wanted when I was little; in fact growing up until maybe age 14 I had few or no personal obstacles. 

I was four years older than my next sibling, and I've always been verbally quick, able to explain things with a complex vocabulary. I used to use big words to impress adults when I was 4. I always got to take the leading role in things as a child, and I wasn't very impressed with anyone else besides myself at that time because I had no real peers. I always won arguments and disputes because I was just a lot quicker at that kind of thing, and maybe also because I thought I was better at whatever I was doing, and that attitude gets translated into confidence.

Only if I was demonstrably beaten at something repeatedly would I believe I wasn't the best at it, and even then it really wouldn't sink in. I just sort of thought, "I'm so much better at everything else, so I guess it doesn't matter I'm not the best at this". 

There is definitely an element of narcissism here that I recognized in my late teens, and I tried to compensate for by making sure I had real accomplishments to back up my attitude. That was triggered by seeing some people who couldn't back up their talk but who boasted constantly; that disgusted me. So I totally stopped that kind of behavior, and focused on making sure I was the real thing; I was definitely very ashamed of some of my behavior in childhood. 

So perhaps you could characterize my motivation as 'staying the oldest sibling', kind of.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Quang said:


> Why is it important for you to 'prove yourself'? What would this do for you?


It would show that my money is where my mouth is. And that's necessary for me.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

_1) What are your views on trust, reliability/credibility, and authority?

Trust. I trust most people until they do something to prove otherwise. Then I run them out of my life. 
Reliability. If someone says they will do something, I can certainly appreciate it. Some people can be reliable asstwits. 
Credibility. TRUTH is a big deal to me. I value highly TRY. If you life to me, but you are trying, and you did not know better, I have a lot of patience. I have no patience for people who talk out of their asses. 

Authority. I'm entp, but generally I respect people I respect, and that has less than nothing to do with an office or some perceived power they might think they have.

_
_2) How important is it for you to make sure about something? Not very. Most things which come up in life I can fix. Most people do their best. I'm pretty comfortable being last minute, and can deal with almost any situation.

What does this make me! Smiles....._


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> Hard to say. At one level, I just do. I just can, but that sounds absurd without anything to back it up, it is absurd. So I have to put my money where my mind is. I wouldn't want to be one of those people who sit around talking but have nothing to show for it.


Yeah, I know what you mean by having to actually back up what you think say or do. 

Can you expand more on why you feel compelled to "put your money where your mouth is?" Why is this important to you, and why is it truly "necessary?"


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> . I trust my intuition above else and I trust where it's pointing me. My intuition told me that if I kept doing this I would destroy myself.
> 
> I feel read shit into my behavior and the motivations that underlie\
> 
> ...


Fascinating.

Let's look at the last sentence.

Why do you feel the way you do about the rest of the comments?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> Why do you feel the way you do about the rest of the comments?


Because this thread is totally about me and my behavior. I am not going to privy you that information in public, that's for sure.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Entropic said:


> @_Vajra_ No, I actually think I actually fit the stereotype very well.


That's not what you had said. The crux of your complaint was that you match whatever idea of 8 that you have derived out of self-study, but you don't relate to how the type is stereotyped here. Either way, which stereotype you match is irrelevant.




> That's not the problem at all. The stereotype that is, if you strip it off the way the forum mythologizes the type, which, if you've been reading, was my issue all along and it wasn't just a critique aimed at you though I did mention you, because it was a friend who told me to consider 8, and I debated type 6 with him quite thoroughly.


Part of where I easily took down your non-critique was because I actually have a very realistic understanding of the type, and if anything, I have always taken the time to de-mythologize it, by addressing that the type has fears, vulnerabilities, insecurities like any other. The same mythologizing proves detrimental to people's experiences here. I have criticized it actively. I see others doing that, as well. The mythologizing isn't dead, but it isn't all pervasive either. That is an improvement that stands to be acknowledged.

In your post prior to the edit, you had said that I was insisting you reconsider 6. Following that thread last year, you haven't heard from me about your type. I don't believe it is helpful to you to tie your sense of well being or what have you into anyone else's opinion. Sure, everyone desires to be understood. We want people to see us in a way that affirms our self-understanding, but that doesn't always happen. Frankly, it's just a false comfort at times. It's hard to deal with dissent about something as sensitive and personal as typing. It's just something we have to open ourselves to or it's an emotional risk we take here. I don't approve of people bashing anyone without basis, but disagreements with self-typing are a part and parcel of being on a forum. Neither you nor I or anyone else can change that. In fact, this is what, as long as boundaries are respected, makes for healthy debate. If we all just sat around agreeing with each other, the whole idea of logging on would be pointless. On the forum anyway, I've seen nothing but knee-jerk resistance from you at the very notion of even considering 6. In the past, you have provided very stereotypical descriptions of the type. 

Besides, you yourself disagree with people's typing. You are active on multiple sub-forums and typing people, and you yourself, don't go in and start validating people's self perceptions. You challenge them. You ask questions. You debate theory. You discuss their life back and forth. You disagree with people's typings. You can't expect any different from others. Nobody gets to have special treatment. If someone is vulnerable, going through a rough time, they should make that known so typers can tread softly. Better still, it's best to wait for a public typing process until a person is feeling better. 

So, you will just have to accept that disagreements happen. There's no way around it.



> Again, I've done my homework and I already told mimesis very long time ago, about a year now, that I actually openly considered what he suggested.


I understand.


> I gave it a couple of whirls in my head over the course of several days but all I felt it did to me was making my internal state toxic because if anything what it did do, was making me feel I was becoming something I was not by trying to find something in myself that wasn't there.


That's not worth it. Sounds like it just wasn't a good time to get into this stuff. It's not supposed to be that disorienting and disturbing.



> I trust my intuition above else and I trust where it's pointing me. My intuition told me that if I kept doing this I would destroy myself.


Honestly, I didn't think things could get that distressing. That's something I'll keep in mind.


> Yet, here mimesis is, still chasing after my tail. I would say I've been pretty fucking patient in this regard, considering how I've only begun to feel fed up with it at this point.


I am sure he'll address that if he wants to. 


> I feel that you, and even more so mimesis, read shit into my behavior and the motivations that underlie them that's not there or completely misattribute it as to why I think things instead of asking me why I do it, while also completely misunderstanding the character growth I've gone through the past year.


It's difficult to see your character growth when you go around making some of the comments you do and doing the kind of shit you do. You'll have to understand that I am willing to respect the hardships you've faced with the process, but that one can't clap with one hand. 

You may feel misunderstood, and I get that. You also need to evaluate how you might be contributing to the misunderstanding. A blame game doesn't lead anywhere useful. On that note, I'd be very open to hearing your reasoning for your typing. I have never been averse to that. On that other thread, you just ran off. You didn't engage any dialogue at all. If you have a typing thread or if you want to talk about it in PM, I am open to reading. I am not interested in a detailed typing discussion. I don't have time for it anyway. But, I will listen and see where you're coming from.

So, I will concede to your point about listening and its importance to the process. 



> So my issue has far more to do with that I feel that my behavior isn't taken for what it is when I say what something means, but is distorted to fit someone else's lens of what it is or, when I reveal parts of who I feel I am and how I choose to attribute it, is outright mocked. I didn't even type as an 8 back then, but as a 5 with an 8 fix.


Yeah, I see what you mean. There was a better way to go about that part of the conversation. 



> Yes, I take issue with that, because I care about my own sense of authenticity and I do like to be understood in this regard.


Understandable


> I hold grudges long and easily, and I do not easily forgive whenever I feel someone does slight me or anyone else I care for, especially by so clearly distorting something I express to be otherwise.


At the end of the day, the grudge doesn't eat away at anyone else but you. I know it's tempting, and you are welcome to hold on to them. It's eventually counter-productive. 

With you, it has culminated in overreactions and silly tiffs you start out of nowhere. This is a conversation that could have transpired last year had you just asserted yourself, instead of leaving the scene in a huff and letting resentment build until you lost it and brought it up again however indirectly at first until you fessed up later. It could've been handled much more efficiently.

Regardless, the conversation is finally taking place, and that's all that matters. I appreciate your honesty. 



> The very point is that I've told him about behavior I do that he is not privy to in person, and he still chooses to attribute it differently by entirely re-interpreting it into something I no longer recognize. It gets a little frustrating over time, and that is really the primary source of my comment. I simply chose to phrase it facetiously.


My response was similarly facetious.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Figure said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean by having to actually back up what you think say or do.
> 
> Can you expand more on why you feel compelled to "put your money where your mouth is?" Why is this important to you, and why is it truly "necessary?"


This might start to get circular, and I can't guarantee my accuracy because I am awful at introspection on why I do what I do. I feel like if I say something direct I'll just be rationalizing answers to stuff I don't know the answer to.

My first instinct was to say "It just is".

One thing that comes to mind is that when I see something that I hate in others, then I learn from that not to do it myself. And I hate the sight of disingenuousness. This is bad at any level, but worst when it involves powerful people, government officials or religious leaders and so on, being self-congratulatory about their benevolence, when in reality all they care about is their self-interest. The West's attitude towards Putin's actions in Ukraine, not to bring politics into this, is a perfect example of this. I sympathize with Putin, although after hearing how he acts in his own country that changed. But the picture of Russia being cornered while loudmouths on the press shout about their purity and restraint makes me very angry.

The story about people boasting of their accomplishments is another.

When I've seen people 'overshare' or speak in a way that shows they think they are significant to you when in actuality no one cares about their opinion that much; that also makes me cringe and want to avoid anything like that myself.

For example, a lot of authors do this; Salman Rushdie in his autobiography was so narcissistic that I flushed reading it because I felt so bad for him; he thought everyone knew about him and cared about his trials and that this was so significant; doesn't he realize that the average person doesn't even know who he is? And that in the end, once we're gone, no one except a very few of the greatest historical figures are remembered? 

I've got the feeling that the world is so vast and changing that there's no point trying to 'make a mark'; clearly that's impossible for a single individual. Only a few of the greatest, like Napoleon or Caesar, have done that. I'd really like to be one of those, but since that's unrealistic, I'll have to lower my claims.

I have to bring things back into balance; either my claims have to come down to what I can achieve, or what I can achieve has to rise to my claims. That's axiomatic to me.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Are you trying to suggest I should introspect over my own behavior? Because this thread is totally about me and my behavior. I am not going to privy you that information in public, that's for sure.


I think an underlying, MAJOR point to this thread is introspection, and asking others for their opinions in order to find TRUTH. 

I believe myself to be an 8. SOmeone asked a few great questions, and the OP responded, and my response was a bit different. With this comparison, perhaps I will find invalid assumptions I have made, and I will find TRUTH for me. 

If you are not interested in learning more about yourself. so be it. I'd suggest you quit inviting other's opinions of you if you don't want them, and if you don't want MY opinion, but welcome other's, jsut say so . 

As for not sharing information with me in public, I believe the best way to find TRUTH is to hear different perspectives. I doubt I'd be able to help if you shared with me in private.

By the way, this thread is NOT just about you. The OP has an interest as well.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> By the way, this thread is NOT just about you. The OP has an interest as well.


Although, like I said, I like the presence of multiple conversations on the thread. It gives me the sense that there is a lot of social exchange occurring, and I like that.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Vajra said:


> *That is a strawman if I ever saw one *. The first point I made was that they consciously confront their fear when it arises just like 8s, although they are more aware of fear because it's not their blindspot and because they are a head type.
> 
> When the literature addresses the denial of fear being conscious in cp6s, this means negating the conscious awareness of fear. *One example would be experiencing a fear of heights, and then telling oneself the fear didn't matter, not that it doesn't exist*. Denial has more than one meaning. It means claiming something is not true (or let's present in case of fear). OR It means a refutation or rebuttal or negation. In order for a 6 to consciously deny (or negate) fear, they would first have to be aware of it. This is what I just said about about their fear being more in their conscious awareness relative to 8s, but the existential anxiety of 6 being normalized to the point they don't recognize it as being there. This would be the interpretation you applied, albeit wrongly to fear rather than anxiety. A lot of Cp 6s say that they don't experience anxiety. A lot of Enneagram theorists talk about cp 6s not being aware of their anxiety.
> 
> ...


Bold: a strawman, along with all fallacies, can only be present in an argument hence why the fallacy is called a straw man argument. I am not presenting an argument but instead a question to clarify, not only mine, but every one else's interpretation of what you may have meant in your post. A question under no circumstances at all (except one) can never be a fallacy unless the question is presented to further back up an argument, which in this situation is not the case because I'm not arguing what each type is but instead asking you for clarification what you meant in your previous post.

Bolded & underlined: if someone states that they have no fears (denial) they would be lying, as you just stated yourself, and if someone says that some group of people deny their fears then it would inevitably follow that they lie about having fears, or at least could be interpreted like that as I have done. If it wasnt for the clarification presented by you here that denial of fear does not necessarily mean denying that the fear exists but rather denying how much the fear matters, then I would have no reason not to assume that when someone "denies their fear" that it means that the existence of their fears were denied. As you can see I didn't pull it out of no where, if it is true that someone is conscious of their denial of their fears rather than the denial of how their fear affects them then it would be considered a lie, which you already stated this to indeed be the case that if they were to deny that they had fears. Now for future reference, if you ever think I have "pulled something from thin air" I suggest asking me where I have derived my reasoning rather than assume that my reasoning is baseless, this will help lower then probability of any future misunderstandings between the two of us.

Underline: you are correct that "denial" can take on different meaning, which brings up an important point, if we are going to use words such as denial then we should clarify or display the exact meaning we are referring too to limit the probability of misunderstandings. If we do not define these words clearly under the context they are presented in then it is bound to happen that different people who define these specific terms differently will interpret the statements/contexts that these terms are presented in differently, therefore leading to a rift of understanding between them which inevitably just causes more misunderstandings and confusion. Thankfully you clarified what denial meant under the context of the 6, which helps in limiting misunderstandings as to how 6's deny their fears.

Italic: Yes it did help and clarify a lot.



> You may have misunderstood my point, but this is an excellent and absolutely vital question *that people rarely raise, if at all, in the Enneagram community*.


I've noticed from my time on this forum, along with life experience, that most people don't focus on the core things that separate one thing from another conclusively. I consider this a problem because its a tendency that leads to misunderstands and mistyping, along with having people argue about similarities rather than what distinctively defines a thing. This is why I like to present questions that focuses on the core rather than the fluff, in order to ensure that we can make progress in our understandings rather than propelling our misunderstandings, cognitive biases, and self fulfilling prophecies.




> At the core of being human, there is inherent uncertainty/ "not knowing". This is a part of the human condition. So much of Buddhist teaching addresses how to become comfortable with uncertainty/transience. It would be inaccurate to say that 8s feel no uncertainty or don't share a certain core of sensitivity to uncertainty that everyone does. *However, it triggers 6 in a manner that the type's core issues cluster around it, because anxiety is considered the type's passion *(an underlying and entrenched emotional response to reality, resulting from the loss of contact with Being).
> 
> Again, no 6 is "constantly uncertain". That sounds like pathology. When cp6s normalize their awareness of uncertainty, it means they cope with it through testing, questioning, projection etc. *They don't experience "uncertainty" as "anxiety". It's experienced as "wanting to know", wanting to seek clarity, testing for where people stand. To the cp 6, "wanting to know more" or seek more clarity is not "anxiety".* It's just living. This is an in-built bias. This is normal to the 6. Phobics experience this more as "anxiety" because they move towards it, so experience it much more directly.


Now I'm glad you brought this up, you state that they experience uncertainty as "wanting to know" or "to seek more clarity", but this doesn't describe what it is that they want to know or seek more clarity for. Would 5s also want to know which is exemplified in this habit to master subjects, wouldn't this also show that 5s seek more clarity in the subjects they study? What I'm getting at is that different types may want to know or seek more clarity in different things, what exactly separates a 6 in this regard, as in what exactly is it that they "want to know" or "seek more clarity" for, that is to sixes, and sixes alone?




> I wouldn't say "constantly" scanning. *That sounds very pathologically paranoid. It's no wonder a lot of people act like the typing is akin to a cancer diagnosis XD. *
> 
> But yes, 6s experience much more anticipatory anxiety. 6s, even cp, see them on the wrong side of the power scale, in an uncertain world, so their psyche is geared towards contingencies and threat detection. It's not constant, but the tendency is there.


Bold: This is why many people see 6s as paranoid, or type paranoid people as 6s because when trying to differentiate it from other types they come across descriptions of sixes that focus on them being attuned to fears in the external. If its not constant, and if other types can also attune themselves to fears in the external even if rarely, then it can cause confusion as to how a 6 attunes themselves to fears in the external and how it separates sixes from other types. These are main points that should be discussed so that distinctive traits that are exclusive to each type can be presented clearly, because so many people can interpret sixes being attuned to external fears differently, some may perceive it as a constant act and some others may perceive it as less than a constant act, and these differences in interpretation can cause many misunderstandings. 



> 8s minimize threats and view themselves as being larger than potential challenges (Palmer explains this well in her attentional pattern segment), and so they are more prone to reacting to threats when they arise, rather than applying mental energy towards detecting them in advance. This anticipatory anxiety is also part of the 6's "existential anxiety". *An 8 can, of course, scan for a threat in advance, if needed, but it's not going to be their default pattern*.


What about an Ne 8 who constantly perceives, like all other Ne doms, every possibility in the external and where all things are going or deriving from while adjusting themselves for every possibility? Obviously an Ne 8 wouldn't see perceiving a potential threat alone with all other possibilities as an anxiety thing since seeing all possibilities in the external is where they derive energy from but it will still be their default pattern to see the possibility of not only the threat, but all other possibilities as well. Its not like an Ne 8 is going to limit the possibilities they see, nevermind the fact that no Ne dom has control over what possibilities get brought up since Ne is an unconscious function focused on seeing all possibilities in the external. 

Do you mean to say, as some descriptions of sixes tend to state, that a 6 is predominately focused on worst case scenarios rather than other possibilities which leads to an anticipatory anxiety?



> I know what you mean. Back then, it used to be reflexive for people to say 6s weren't less than etc., because there used to be a lot of threads mocking the type. It's obviously not the best way to explain the differences between the two types. I don't think people who do that are really trying to provide substantive feedback on the type, as much as addressing a forum issue.


If there are more people trying to address a forum issue by focusing on similarities between types than people who are trying to provide substantive feedback on the specific distinctive properties exclusive to types than it is bound that the confusion and understandings of the types between members will increase by the amount equal to the proportion of how many are focused on addressing an issue over how many are really trying to provide substantive feedback. 

Also wouldn't it be more efficient to focus on the exclusive properties of each type that other types lack, then proceed to see how those exclusive properties may cause similar behaviors in different types in order to display the different reasons that are exclusive to each type in why they present similarities to other types? I think this would do more for addressing the problems on this forum rather than people just spewing information that end up causing more confusion, misunderstandings, and disagreements between people.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Vajra said:


> Typology has an expiration date, in terms of utility, for most people. It just doesn't help those who are obviously quite insecure and struggling in ways that forums don't help or fix.


I agree with this. Especially if you think you are going to find yourself in typology. It just doesn't work that way. You can only find yourself by seeing yourself in relation to others, and by doing stuff, seeing what works and what doesn't and learning from that, rather than in relation to some intellectual system. That's why I use typology more for understanding others than myself, at least with Socionics; I think questions about quadras and other combinations of people are far more interesting than internal mechanisms. 

I am a behaviorist in practice, although in theory I admire the person who studies the internal mechanism more. Because true knowledge comes from understanding an internal mechanism, as I've read in Chomsky and am convinced by. It's just that I'm not sure that we have 'system privileges' to see the internal mechanism.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> I've got the feeling that the world is so vast and changing that there's no point trying to 'make a mark'; clearly that's impossible for a single individual. Only a few of the greatest, like Napoleon or Caesar, have done that. *I'd really like to be one of those, but since that's unrealistic*, I'll have to lower my claims.


Things that are impossible are unrealistic, but achieving the level that Napoleon, Caesar, and many others have achieved proves its possibility, therefore its realistic. In order to reach such a level of influence you have to strive for it, you have to have the inherent drive that has its sights set on achieving that goal over all over. If you think you have something to offer the world that the world is lacking, or if you think you can shift the direction of the world in the way that benefits it more than what its current direction is then strive for it, plan for it, and work for it. The only thing holding you back is yourself, and what has been done can and will be done over and over again. Lowering the potential of yourself is the worst thing you could do to yourself.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Deus Absconditus said:


> Things that are impossible are unrealistic, but achieving the level that Napoleon, Caesar, and many others have achieved proves its possibility, therefore its realistic. In order to reach such a level of influence you have to strive for it, you have to have the inherent drive that has its sights set on achieving that goal over all over. If you think you have something to offer the world that the world is lacking, or if you think you can shift the direction of the world in the way that benefits it more than what its current direction is then strive for it, plan for it, and work for it. The only thing holding you back is yourself, and what has been done can and will be done over and over again. Lowering the potential of yourself is the worst thing you could do to yourself.


I am kind of talking myself down, you're right. Thanks for the advice.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> Although, like I said, I like the presence of multiple conversations on the thread. It gives me the sense that there is a lot of social exchange occurring, and I like that.


when people ask you questions, I learn. When you answer, I learn more.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I would say the major differences are
> 1) 6s (phobic, counterphobic and prussian) are high-strung and alert. 8s are relatively non-neurotic
> 2) 6s carry a lot of tension in one form or another, 8s have slower, more relaxed body language
> 3) 8s and 6s are both cynical by nature, but 6s are cynical about _themselves_ as well. 8s are not
> ...


Aren't there ways to describe the differences between 6s and 8s that don't always focus on 6s being angry pufferfish? (thank you @_mushr00m_ for this word) 

I've been repeating this opinion a little more often the past few days, but I would really like to see something done about this trend on the forum. Comparing 6s and 8s in terms of what 6s feel insecure at, but what 8s feel confident at, creates a negative impression of 6s. Honestly, it's not an environment I'm enjoying, though I won't speak for other 6s because they might take stuff less personally. 

I don't disagree with anything said here, but I feel like it could have included more discussion about the vulnerabilities of 8s/strengths of 6s. Everyone always talks way more about the areas 6s are deficient in.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Why does everyone want to be an 8?


I can only speak for myself, but, as a head type, I kinda sit around reflecting on this all day and have difficulty actualizing my ideas, plans and desires in reality. 8s are good at this, and they have a _physical_ confidence about them I can't help but admire. my thoughts on the core strengths of my own type can be pretty much summed up as "great! I'm extremely insightful, observant and fairly intelligent...who fucking cares?" I have a shit ton of perspective, more self-awareness than most 60 year olds and a great deal of common sense....but I am a 23 year old struggling through college and living off of my parents money (even if I am minimalistic with it because I despise asking for money and make it a point not to waste opportunity) because I have such difficulty actually *doing* anything with it. 



> They are the least likable and most dull sounding type to me. I feel like they have nothing to contribute.


who cares about "contributing" or being "likable" if you get what you want?


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Amaterasu said:


> Aren't there ways to describe the differences between 6s and 8s that don't always focus on 6s being angry pufferfish? (thank you @_mushr00m_ for this word)
> 
> I've been repeating this opinion a little more often the past few days, but I would really like to see something done about this trend on the forum. Comparing 6s and 8s in terms of what 6s feel insecure at, but what 8s feel confident at, creates a negative impression of 6s. Honestly, it's not an environment I'm enjoying, though I won't speak for other 6s because they might take stuff less personally.
> 
> I don't disagree with anything said here, but I feel like it could have included more discussion about the vulnerabilities of 8s/strengths of 6s. Everyone always talks way more about the areas 6s are deficient in.


This is an interesting perspective since you're embodying 6 by looking to @Swordsman of Mana, to define it for you.

Have you considered defining the positive attributes of 6 since you have upclose and personal experience of it?


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I can only speak for myself, but, as a head type, I kinda sit around reflecting on this all day and have difficulty actualizing my ideas, plans and desires in reality. 8s are good at this, and they have a _physical_ confidence about them I can't help but admire. my thoughts on the core strengths of my own type can be pretty much summed up as "great! I'm extremely insightful, observant and fairly intelligent...who fucking cares?" I have a shit ton of perspective, more self-awareness than most 60 year olds and a great deal of common sense....but I am a 23 year old struggling through college and living off of my parents money (even if I am minimalistic with it because I despise asking for money and make it a point not to waste opportunity) because I have such difficulty actually *doing* anything with it.
> 
> 
> *who cares about "contributing" or being "likable" if you get what you want?* :tongue:


Everyone else except for the 8 I guess..

I understand what you're saying about actualizing your ideas however.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Duo said:


> This is an interesting perspective since you're embodying 6 by looking to @_Swordsman of Mana_, to define it for you.
> 
> Have you considered defining the positive attributes of 6 since you have upclose and personal experience of it?


I'm not interested in looking to anyone to _define_ my own reality, I do that well enough on my own  Watch what you say. 

That does NOT mean, however, that I don't feel uncomfortable with people constantly saying what 6s lack, rather than what they possess that makes them stronger than/different from other types. It's always a comparison, where the 6 tends to fall short somehow. Usually all I ever see in terms of people talking about 6 strength is added as an afterthought like "oh, and because 6s experience so much fear, they occasionally become very courageous".

Also, a lot of descriptions/accounts by people act like the 6 capacity for critical thought is a bad thing that only leads to disparaging pessimism. I take a lot of pride in my ability to think critically. It helps me see inconsistencies and loopholes when everyone else has their eyes shut, and when I do my homework, I can make mincemeat of any argument I'm involved in. Which is awesome, cause I usually always do my homework. 

My tendency to be neurotic means that when push comes to shove, I'm actually one of the only people willing to stand up for something, disagree with superiors... whatever. Because none of those things compare to the level of worry I normally experience, I'm able to sail through situations where others may hesitate. 

There are other things, but perhaps for a later time. And... I don't like to brag ;P


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Amaterasu said:


> I'm not interested in looking to anyone to _define_ my own reality, I do that well enough on my own  Watch what you say.
> 
> That does NOT mean, however, that I don't feel uncomfortable with people constantly saying what 6s lack, rather than what they possess that makes them stronger than/different from other types. It's always a comparison, where the 6 tends to fall short somehow. Usually all I ever see in terms of people talking about 6 strength is added as an afterthought like "oh, and because 6s experience so much fear, they occasionally become very courageous".
> 
> ...


Honestly, I really like 6's and I heavily considered it as my core type. They are an incredibly complex and interesting type.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Everyone else except for the 8 I guess..


also 5s, 7w8s and, to a lesser extent, 1s and 7w6s.



> I understand what you're saying about actualizing your ideas however.


yeah, it's a pain in the ass :frustrating:


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Amaterasu said:


> I'm not interested in looking to anyone to _define_ my own reality, I do that well enough on my own  Watch what you say.


This made me smile. So very 6 and not in a bad way.  



> That does NOT mean, however, that I don't feel uncomfortable with people constantly saying what 6s lack, rather than what they possess that makes them stronger than/different from other types. It's always a comparison, where the 6 tends to fall short somehow. Usually all I ever see in terms of people talking about 6 strength is added as an afterthought like "oh, and because 6s experience so much fear, they occasionally become very courageous".
> 
> Also, a lot of descriptions/accounts by people act like the 6 capacity for critical thought is a bad thing that only leads to disparaging pessimism. I take a lot of pride in my ability to think critically. It helps me see inconsistencies and loopholes when everyone else has their eyes shut, and when I do my homework, I can make mincemeat of any argument I'm involved in. Which is awesome, cause I usually always do my homework.
> 
> ...


There you go. You've expressed some strengths for head types.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I can only speak for myself, but, as a head type, I kinda sit around reflecting on this all day and have difficulty actualizing my ideas, plans and desires in reality. 8s are good at this, and they have a _physical_ confidence about them I can't help but admire. my thoughts on the core strengths of my own type can be pretty much summed up as "great! I'm extremely insightful, observant and fairly intelligent...who fucking cares?" I have a shit ton of perspective, more self-awareness than most 60 year olds and a great deal of common sense....but I am a 23 year old struggling through college and living off of my parents money (even if I am minimalistic with it because I despise asking for money and make it a point not to waste opportunity) because I have such difficulty actually *doing* anything with it.


Sure, 8s can be action-oriented but is action desired if it means acting more like a bull in a china shop or, similarly, action in itself is valued without there necessarily being any thought or self-reflection behind it e.g. I want to go do X so I go do X, without ever stopping to think why I want to go do X or why X is important to me? Similarly, 8s also strive to be self-sufficient to a fault, repressing their emotional reality which makes it difficult to form meaningful and deep relationships and even though they may not be aware of feeling lonely or being alone, it will definitely have a negative impact on their overall development and health in the long run, and not lead to a very satisfying or meaningful life. 

An 8 isn't going to be more prone to ask their parents for money, but may rather live in poverty than rely on someone else to help them, even if said people actually want to help. 8s may bunker and purposefully push people who want to be in their lives away, becoming loners and leading very solitary lives, as a result. 

Also, is physical confidence good if it means over-estimating your abilities or under-estimating the danger? Yes, it's important for 5s to go and actualize their ideas, but it's not like these qualities are always desirable.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Amaterasu @Duo
honestly, I've had trouble describing the differences without sounding biased. it's not so much because I generally like 8s more than 6s (even though, admittedly, that is generally true), as much that, on a surface level, the problems of 6 just sound more pathetic than the problems of 8s. for balance though, I will attempt to expand on the weaknesses of 8s
- problems with impulse control
- tendencies toward dangerous and/or criminal behavior
- difficulty holding a steady job
- an underdeveloped sense of morality, at least when they are immature. "justice" is actually a central concept of 8's relationship with the world, but it tends to be rather primitive compared to 1s until they take several steps back and educate themselves. a young 8's sense of justice is, for lack of a better word, "ghetto". in an extreme case, they might think something like "he killed by brother, so I'm going to murder his wife and children and wipe his seed from the earth" (even if most wouldn't use that colorful of language).
- lack of emotional self awareness. a tendency to shut out "softer" emotions like sadness, empathy, affection, joy (except for a feeling of conceited satisfaction, which both 7s and 8s tend to be very familiar with)
- biting off more than they can chew and fucking up their health and relationships as a result (assuming they haven't killed themselves in the process)
- overestimating their physical capabilities in comparison to their environment. 8s who have been knocked down and seriously threatened a few times often have a great deal more perspective and a more accurate sense of themselves


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Duo said:


> There you go. You've expressed some strengths for head types.


Yep. But I would like others to start talking about these strengths of 6s more often, too. 6s are known to doubt themselves and their judgment, so why would a 6 inherently _want_ to embrace a type that is by and large described negatively? Probably why so many 6s mistype and reject the notion of being that type.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Sure, 8s can be action-oriented but is action desired if it means acting more like a bull in a china shop? Similarly, 8s also strive to be self-sufficient to a fault, repressing their emotional reality which makes it difficult to form meaningful and deep relationships and even though they may not be aware of feeling lonely or being alone, it will definitely have a negative impact on their overall development and health in the long run, and not lead to a very satisfying or meaningful life.
> 
> An 8 isn't going to be more prone to ask their parents for money, but may rather live in poverty than rely on someone else to help them, even if said people actually want to help. 8s may bunker and purposefully push people who want to be in their lives away, becoming loners and leading very solitary lives, as a result.
> 
> Also, is physical confidence good if it means over-estimating your abilities or under-estimating the danger? Yes, it's important for 5s to go and actualize their ideas, but it's not like these qualities are always desirable.


lmao! epic timing fail on my part. I answered almost all of these in the post I was making when you posted this :laughing:



> An 8 isn't going to be more prone to ask their parents for money, but may rather live in poverty than rely on someone else to help them, even if said people actually want to help. 8s may bunker and purposefully push people who want to be in their lives away, becoming loners and leading very solitary lives, as a result.


^my INTJ 8w7 Sp/Sx best friend in a nutshell until recently lol


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> also 5s, 7w8s and, to a lesser extent, 1s and 7w6s.
> 
> 
> yeah, it's a pain in the ass :frustrating:


Haha. I see what you did there. Not quite the same though jelly bean.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

The things I like about 6s:

-foresight
-observant, mentally sharp personalities
-more relational, connect better with people, though some are loners and survivalists etc. which i find fascinating
-often independent or independence valuing; mos are def not the co-dependent nervous wrecks they are made out to be
-great friends IME- not as self-absorbed as some other types
-can be very courageous, even phobic 6s who are often under-valued. a friend's mother is a p6w7. she underestimates herself like it's nobody's business. but, she has raised 5 children as a single mother, after she left an abusive relationship (which is extremely difficult for most). she has dealt with a ton of health problems, and she has kept up her spirits. she's extremely observant and has very keen insights into people. her contingency planning protected the kids from a lot of shit, especially when they had an abusive father on their heels. she's this really sweet, lovely woman who comes across as anxious (she has an anxiety disorder) and neurotic. but, she has an iron will. most people would not have survived and come out on top the way she did.
-sense of humour. i often find 6s to be absolutely hilarious. they can be sarcastic as fuck. some of my favourite stand up comedians are 6s.
-6s who challenge outdated conventions, ideologies, and those that misuse power (just like 1s, 8s and other types) are so fucking sexy. revolutionary types fascinate me, in general.
- the stereotype of sheeple couldn't be further from the truth for 6s. even p6s have keen, sharp questioning minds. barring unhealthy 6s with attachment issues, most 6s are far too questioning and observant to be led around by the nose. 
-Sx /sx heavy 6s can be extremely seductive, attractive (even if they are not conventionally good looking), captivating and persistent in pursuing those they desire. they're very exciting lovers.
-some 6s, contrary to popular stereotypes, have great leadership skills. they tend to be very invested in the well being of people they lead, less self-serving than the average Id type.

may add more later lol


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Amaterasu_ @_Duo_
> honestly, I've had trouble describing the differences without sounding biased. it's not so much because I generally like 8s more than 6s (even though, admittedly, that is generally true), as much that, on a surface level, the problems of 6 just sound more pathetic than the problems of 8s. for balance though, I will attempt to expand on the weaknesses of 8s
> - problems with impulse control
> - tendencies toward dangerous and/or criminal behavior
> ...


Why are 6's surface level problems more pathetic? Whats more pathetic then someone who has tendencies towards criminal behavior, problems with impulse control, and difficultly feeling empathy, joy, and affection?

Seriously, this sociopath worship has got to go.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Haha. I see what you did there. Not quite the same though jelly bean.


if you're under the impression that your typing had something with me putting 1 in the "not caring about being likable group", it didn't. that said, you still seem more 6w7 to me than 1. granted, this isn't exactly relevant to the conversation, but it seemed like a good time to put this out there for the sake of clarity. this is based on the experience that people being suspicious of my typings of them has lead to a lot of lulzy social fuck ups on this forum, combined with the fact that you have considered 6 in the past and have been open to feedback, so I don't think you'll take it personally.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Why are 6's surface level problems more pathetic? Whats more pathetic then someone who has tendencies towards criminal behavior, problems with impulse control, and difficultly feeling empathy, joy, and affection?
> Seriously, this sociopath worship has got to go.


I didn't say they _were_ more pathetic, I said they _came across_ more pathetic on a _surface_ level. subtle but important difference. and yes, having traits like trouble with impulse control and holding down a job are indeed very pathetic.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> if you're under the impression that your typing had something with me putting 1 in the "not caring about being likable group", it didn't. that said, you still seem more 6w7 to me than 1. granted, this isn't exactly relevant to the conversation, but it seemed like a good time to put this out there for the sake of clarity. this is based on the experience that people being suspicious of my typings of them has lead to a lot of lulzy social fuck ups on this forum, combined with the fact that you have considered 6 in the past and have been open to feedback, so I don't think you'll take it personally.


Bro I'm the one who asked you to type me in my typing thread and you never answered!!! LMFAO. Its no problem. I could totally see why you would think 6w7. I considered 6 for a long time as well. People usually have a difficult time getting a read on my type. Both for MBTI and enneagram. 

If you would go more into detail on why you think 6w7 on my typing thread I would appreciate it. ^.^


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Why are 6's surface level problems more pathetic? Whats more pathetic then someone who has tendencies towards criminal behavior, problems with impulse control, and difficultly feeling empathy, joy, and affection?
> 
> Seriously, this sociopath worship has got to go.


It's not an idea I enjoy, either, but I think it becomes more "pathetic" because fear and insecurity is something ridiculously _human_ and ingrained in all of us as a necessary part of our survival instinct. No one can say they have NEVER feared anything or NEVER experienced the pangs of anxiety. The fact that one type gets entangled in these issues as a core fixation and has it permeate their entire worldview makes people unconsciously assume that this type is somehow less able to survive with the same vigor and confidence as other types.

And sociopathy betrays a superficial confidence and self-assurance, which people unconsciously mistake for a _greater_ ability to survive and succeed. People worship those who are removed from their feelings because no one wants to confront the pain inherent to ALL our emotional realities.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Amaterasu said:


> Yep. But I would like others to start talking about these strengths of 6s more often, too. 6s are known to doubt themselves and their judgment, so why would a 6 inherently _want_ to embrace a type that is by and large described negatively? Probably why so many 6s mistype and reject the notion of being that type.


I'm going to use my prior reference to relationship to authority, to expand on the differences between 8s and 6s.

Because of being a head type, 6s use critical thinking to test perceived authority. Once authority proves they're beneficial and mean no harm to the 6, the 6 will follow or back down.

8s are fine with authority, if authority leaves them alone to shape their environment. If authority intrudes on their environment in a manner not perceived to be competent, that's when 8s go head to head.

Would the above be reasonable?


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## Kinetic (Feb 7, 2015)

Entropic said:


> @Kinetic You are right that it's about motivation, so why not focus on the motivation instead of the behavior?


Well sure, but I use a series of behaviour to try and guess someones motivations IRL. Then I build up kind of like a database with stuff that triggers me to think about a certain type. Motivations is what I want to know, but behaviours is what I see..

Why not start with the similar behaviours and then explain the motivations behind them to explain the differences between types that can look similar on the outside?

Also I don't really see the reason why everyone feels so strong about typing over the internet, well I guess it's an identity thing but IRL it's not that hard to see the difference between 8s and CP6s IMO.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> Also, a lot of descriptions/accounts by people act like the 6 capacity for critical thought is a bad thing that only leads to disparaging pessimism. I take a lot of pride in my ability to think critically. It helps me see inconsistencies and loopholes when everyone else has their eyes shut, and when I do my homework, I can make mincemeat of any argument I'm involved in. Which is awesome, cause I usually always do my homework.


I have seen 6's beat out 8's plenty of times, and actually accomplish a great deal more than 8's. In all of these occasions the 6 has put a significant amount of thought into an issue and accounted for unknowns in advance, whereas the 8 simply jumps into situations and attempts to dictate, making themselves sound like immature 5 year old children who yell and scream when they don't get their way. Even 8's who are intelligent and competent have an uncanny way of intimidating people - not putting themselves into some prestigious power position, but rather, putting themselves into a corner because they refuse to cooperate with others in a constructive way. People respect their space, not their necessity to a situation as real leaders prove. 

That's the exact opposite of the flashy, "8's always get what they want and get things done" bullshit that circulates on this forum. For every 1 "Donald Trump 8" that is idealized here, I cannot tell you how many times in the corporate world I have seen 8's waste enormous amounts of time and money while they push and push and push for something, do a ton, and not actually accomplish anything - in part because of this isolation, and that they cannot do everything themselves and do not trust others to do it. Not to mention, the whole CEO-big picture 8's concept as being complete horsedung, as I know 8's who are RADICALLY more detail-obsessive and detail-unrealistic (they are ESTJ) than _I_ am as a type 1; along with trying to get jobs they are not qualified for, and coming across as incompetent, blowhard egomaniacs nobody wants to work with. HEALTHY 8's are NOT like this - however, 8's are no more innately healthy or unhealthy than any other type, including 6 and must work just as much as all other types to attain a higher self. Like all types, the "strength" of an 8 is an_ imitation_; no other type develops an ego structure around being "strong" or "in control," because no other type sees that as something that needs to be dealt with unnaturally -_ including_ CP 6. 

The care that healthy 6's, both Phobic and Counterphobic, put into their thoughts, as well as their preventative outlook, meanwhile make them very desirable people to come to to ask for advice, because they are both more aware of potential issues with something in advance, and because they actually connect with you instead of pushing you away. I know MANY 6's who are highly successful individuals - doctors, lawyers, dentists, consultants, bankers, and Ivy League students or Masters candidates - for this very ability, to analyze all angles, and advise and guide interpersonally and with data behind what they say.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Figure said:


> I have seen 6's beat out 8's plenty of times, and actually accomplish a great deal more than 8's. In all of these occasions the 6 has put a significant amount of thought into an issue and accounted for unknowns in advance, whereas the 8 simply jumps into situations and attempts to dictate, making themselves sound like immature 5 year old children who yell and scream when they don't get their way. Even 8's who are intelligent and competent have an uncanny way of intimidating people - not putting themselves into some prestigious power position, but rather, putting themselves into a corner because they refuse to cooperate with others in a constructive way. People respect their space, not their necessity to a situation as real leaders prove.
> 
> That's the exact opposite of the flashy, "8's always get what they want and get things done" bullshit that circulates on this forum. For every 1 "Donald Trump 8" that is idealized here, I cannot tell you how many times in the corporate world I have seen 8's waste enormous amounts of time and money while they push and push and push for something, do a ton, and not actually accomplish anything - in part because of this isolation, and that they cannot do everything themselves and do not trust others to do it. Not to mention, the whole CEO-big picture 8's concept as being complete horsedung, as I know 8's who are RADICALLY more detail-obsessive and detail-unrealistic (they are ESTJ) than _I_ am as a type 1; along with trying to get jobs they are not qualified for, and coming across as incompetent, blowhard egomaniacs nobody wants to work with. HEALTHY 8's are NOT like this - however, 8's are no more innately healthy or unhealthy than any other type, including 6 and must work just as much as all other types to attain a higher self. Like all types, the "strength" of an 8 is an_ imitation_; no other type develops an ego structure around being "strong" or "in control," because no other type sees that as something that needs to be dealt with unnaturally -_ including_ CP 6.
> 
> The care that healthy 6's, both Phobic and Counterphobic, put into their thoughts, as well as their preventative outlook, meanwhile make them very desirable people to come to to ask for advice, because they are both more aware of potential issues with something in advance, and because they actually connect with you instead of pushing you away. I know MANY 6's who are highly successful individuals - doctors, lawyers, dentists, consultants, bankers, and Ivy League students or Masters candidates - for this very ability, to analyze all angles, and advise and guide interpersonally and with data behind what they say.


This is awesome! Feels so nice to read ^_^

Until recently I had issues with wanting to become more like all those people who seemingly speak their mind, fight with everyone, and never let anything get to them. But it was proving to be extremely fruitless, because I never knew how much "aggression" to use while remaining true to myself. Trying to appear strong only made me feel weaker.

Eventually I decided being someone who wasn't myself wasn't going to lead me anywhere, and I prefer now to value my own empathy and ability to offer new perspective and insight. I realized that needless displays of strength don't really mean much in the way of true power or confidence, and many people could also do it as a defense mechanism anyway, so it's not like they're necessarily in a better place than I am. It's way more empowering to enjoy my own ability to be considerate and bring transparency to situations.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Duo said:


> I'm going to use my prior reference to relationship to authority, to expand on the differences between 8s and 6s.
> 
> Because of being a head type, 6s use critical thinking to test perceived authority. Once authority proves they're beneficial and mean no harm to the 6, the 6 will follow or back down.
> 
> ...


I don't pretend to have epic knowledge about how 8s work, since I'm not one and I only really have ego investment in figuring out the dynamics of my type, really >_>

However, I don't think 6s always think in terms of how things can harm them. Frequently, I test authority just to see if they are competent enough to call themselves authority. If they are unable to offer what they promised, I don't consider them worthy of my time or respect. And in general, I dislike people telling me what to do, because usually, it's not well thought out... and I prefer controlling my own reality. Unless, you know, I'm severely out of my depth, or have no energy to make any decisions, or hate the project at hand.

When I'm feeling a bit reactive, though, I may test authority needlessly, because I perceive some sort of threat (usually in terms of success/image -- blame my 3 fix) from them even if they're nonchalant and unimposing. 

Anyway, I can definitely see quite an overlap between the two descriptions you offered. Though I think 8s would disregard anyone who inhibits their expansive lust for resources, or who doesn't let them do things their way, because they trust their methods over anyone else's, whereas 6s don't tend to trust themselves to that degree.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> ...
> 
> 
> Do I really seem that illiterate to you? -_- I grasp English at a native speaking level, so I fully know what it means to "talk out of one's ass". You however, seem to not at all understand what I am trying to convey to you. I don't feel this is an issue because I am not a native English speaker as I think I explained myself quite eloquently in my previous post. Again, you seem to get hung up on particular phrasings and the use of semantics, failing to see the big picture behind the use of these words.


I respect greatly people who have learned different languages. I do not have that skill.

Your comprehension of English is good. I question whether you fully understand some of the concepts as you often do not spend the time to flesh out your ideas, leaving out words, ideas, and making nonsensical comments. 

This post leads me to believe your inability to converse in English is not a result of being uncomfortable in English. A shame really. It leaves me little choice than to attribute laziness, ineptitude, or arrogance in not using appropriate words to adequately express yourself. Of course, i often make assumptions, and I prefer to forestall that. 

In this case, what would YOU attribute YOUR incorrect attribution to: 

>>>>>You claim I talk shit about my ass 

Laziness, ineptitude, arrogance, or some other cause?

If you desire to improve I can start pointing out errors in your posts in more detail. Is that what you are asking of me?

I think I'm getting the gist of what you are trying to say, but if you could continue to be careful with your words it would minimize the possibilities of miss-communication.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Sure, 8s can be action-oriented but is action desired if it means acting more like a bull in a china shop or, similarly, action in itself is valued without there necessarily being any thought or self-reflection behind it e.g. I want to go do X so I go do X, without ever stopping to think why I want to go do X or why X is important to me? Similarly, 8s also strive to be self-sufficient to a fault, repressing their emotional reality which makes it difficult to form meaningful and deep relationships and even though they may not be aware of feeling lonely or being alone, it will definitely have a negative impact on their overall development and health in the long run, and not lead to a very satisfying or meaningful life.
> 
> An 8 isn't going to be more prone to ask their parents for money, but may rather live in poverty than rely on someone else to help them, even if said people actually want to help. 8s may bunker and purposefully push people who want to be in their lives away, becoming loners and leading very solitary lives, as a result.
> 
> Also, is physical confidence good if it means over-estimating your abilities or under-estimating the danger? Yes, it's important for 5s to go and actualize their ideas, but it's not like these qualities are always desirable.


8's digress to 5. 8's grow towards 2. There is a middle ground which is completely sustainable for the vast majority of healthy 8's for most of their lives.

A wounded 8 will bunker. A healthy 8 will grow to desire to HELP other people. A normal 8 lives as an 8. 

An 8 does more than BE self sufficient. A normal 8 will try to change the environment, to acquire things to consume, to try things, to push on people to see what happens. 

Is 8 the best example of understanding emotions? Hell no. In fact, I wonder if 8 is the LEAST likely to understand their own or other's emotions. Perhaps that is a hallmark of an 8, and how a 6 is different. 6's are better at understanding their own emotions, and others. I would consider a 2 or 4 to be even better emotions or feelings. 

I think a fundamental difference is anger. I USE anger, or rage, or whatever to give me great energy. If something pisses me off, I light up, the anger comes in, and I am MOTIVATED TO GET SHIT DONE/CHANGED. I explode/push outwards and make space away from me using this free energy.

It seems to me when a 6 gets threatened, they bunker down behind their walls and chop off anything which comes into their domain. Anger does not fuel a 6 - anger is the warning they use to go cerebral and defensive. 

These are all just my understandings of it. What do you think?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I have known 6s who were more formidable competitors than most 3s and 8s I know combined. This is no minor compliment coming from me lol.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kinetic said:


> Well sure, but I use a series of behaviour to try and guess someones motivations IRL. Then I build up kind of like a database with stuff that triggers me to think about a certain type. Motivations is what I want to know, but behaviours is what I see..
> 
> Why not start with the similar behaviours and then explain the motivations behind them to explain the differences between types that can look similar on the outside?
> 
> Also I don't really see the reason why everyone feels so strong about typing over the internet, well I guess it's an identity thing but IRL it's not that hard to see the difference between 8s and CP6s IMO.


Sure, we all see the behavior but why should we linger on those mechanics since that is, as is already established, not the most meaningful direction to take? 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> lmao! epic timing fail on my part. I answered almost all of these in the post I was making when you posted this :laughing:
> 
> 
> ^my INTJ 8w7 Sp/Sx best friend in a nutshell until recently lol


Ok, I read up on your added list that you posted just before I posted my post, and the only thing I really took issue with was when you described the poor sense of morality as something like a "ghetto". I get what you are trying to convey, but I think most normal people, 8s or no 8s, fixes or no fixes, what have you, are not going to be that extreme. I mean, last time I thought about genuinely and actually wanting to kill someone, I was in a very unhealthy situation. Most normal people are not going to want to or even consciously think about wanting to kill others and it has nothing to do with type 8 in itself or because they are described to be vindictive. 8s do care about their integrity of preserving their sense of humanity at average to healthy levels at least, and would only really embrace that kind of mentality you described there when very unhealthy because they at that point, fundamentally believe there is no redemption for them, which kind of touches on something that relates to the below post, as well: 



Amaterasu said:


> This is awesome! Feels so nice to read ^_^
> 
> Until recently I had issues with wanting to become more like all those people who seemingly speak their mind, fight with everyone, and never let anything get to them. But it was proving to be extremely fruitless, because I never knew how much "aggression" to use while remaining true to myself. Trying to appear strong only made me feel weaker.
> 
> Eventually I decided being someone who wasn't myself wasn't going to lead me anywhere, and I prefer now to value my own empathy and ability to offer new perspective and insight. I realized that *needless displays of strength don't really mean much in the way of true power or confidence, and many people could also do it as a defense mechanism anyway, so it's not like they're necessarily in a better place than I am*. It's way more empowering to enjoy my own ability to be considerate and bring transparency to situations.


That's the thing though, this is almost more intended to address @Swordsman of Mana than the general audience, whatever, is that the needless show of strength belies a very deeply felt desperation. It's a desperation for recognition to have your emotional needs in particular, but needs in general, met and heard. It's like what Maitri writes about type 8 and the soul child, in that in every 8, there's this extremely needy and (emotionally) clingy soul child dictating the underlying meaning of your actions, but these things are suppressed, relegated as unnecessary in the psyche, hence the whole "can do" attitude, that R&H call it. 8s fundamentally believe that their needs will not be met so they think that they have to become entirely self-sufficient and provide themselves with everything on their own. So when you get so caught up trying to fill up an inner sense of deadness by over-indulging in physical reality through carnal desire because you inherently believe that your needs will never be met, the more one indulges, the more it belies this lack of inner connection of inner emotional awareness. 

Another aspect here is that carnality is embodied only because it is a reactive formation against an inner sense of badness that is fundamentally recognized in carnality, in that society at large sees carnality as bad. It's very similar to how one can see black people begin to call themselves ******* as a way to gain control over how the word is used against them, by choosing to become the thing that is perceived as negative. By doing that, one retains some form of "fake" sense of control over the situation in that you may call me a ******, but only I decide whether I am a ****** or not by calling myself one. The logic as to why 8s may choose to over-identify with carnality is the same way. It is decidedly imo, not strength, because it fundamentally suggests and connects to how much they are trying to repress their own sense of internal suffering by choosing to become and embody the thing they see is the root of their problem and in that way, attempting to recreate an internally felt sense of control instead of recognizing how they are affected. 

So in that sense yes, I do agree with R&H that 8s fear being controlled but I think the way they express that is very shoddy, because it goes back to a sense of not wanting to experience oneself as a victim, that Maitri goes into much better detail. 
@Vajra It's getting derail-y and perhaps the rest of the convo is better taken to a PM, anyway. I'll just generally address the part about type bias in that yes, I think all reactive types have a tendency to mistype as reactive types to one degree or another (can over-identify with the emotional side of reactivity which could point towards 4, of desiring self-sufficiency/not wanting to be controlled at 6 or 8 etc.) and yes, I am aware that of course all types do have some inherent bias on internet culture, but again, people never decided to create mock titles for those. I've seen it suggested once, and my point is more that I do not agree with such a practice. There are ethical reasons why, one being that no matter how much of a clown one may think people such as DJ Arendee are, it would be again, much better to focus on their shallow approach to typing rather than mocking them for being an "ate". The latter is not going to achieve the result one desires anyway. I've been in the Facebook group for type 8s and the group was rife of people who used the typing to clap themselves on their chests, usually adolescent and young adult males and imo, this is far more reflective of the Western stereotype of masculinity than it is in a sense, an issue with type 8 in itself, in that the traits described in type 8 are also traits seen as desirable masculine traits to have. You don't see females doing this pretty much, and it's for a reason. 

As for making more threads with content I find is meaningful, I do, whenever I do think there is a subject of interest to actually address. You can see I've made quite a few threads in the 6 forum for example, because I'm genuinely interested in understand the type better. I'm an emotional retard and I have issues understanding the interpersonal sphere without relating it back to theory I know, it helps me to understand people better when I can logically understand as to why they are the way they are. 

I'm also nowhere near as vested in the enneagram as I am socionics that I consider my pet subject, so this is where my focal point will be either way, but I do will address bullshit when I see it. I do think this 6 vs 8 thing is a form of bullshit which I think the beginning of this thread well exemplified; people began telling the OP because 8s are not X or do not do X, without knowing as to why the OP choose to do what they do in the first place and began reading all weird things in their behavior that may not at all be there just because they say type 8 in the title. 

You don't quite see that with any other typings except with 6 and 8. I tend to first of all focus on the subjects that are affecting me in my nearest vicinity because they either a) affect myself or b) affect those I know. Other than that I can be needlessly neutral.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> Until recently I had issues with wanting to become more like all those people who seemingly speak their mind, fight with everyone, and never let anything get to them. But it was proving to be extremely fruitless, because I never knew how much "aggression" to use while remaining true to myself. Trying to appear strong only made me feel weaker.


That's great for you. One way that 6's can grow is to "let down the arms" by doing exactly what you note here (in my observation, particularly for 6's who are behaving in an excessively CP way). That's because in not feeling a need to confirm one's strength or worth, a 6 realizes neither of those things was ever really missing, just as the 6 goes about his/her life. Everything really is fine as it is and will unfold that way without your pre-planning, worrying, or forced aggression. 



As a tangent comment, the way some people on this forum idolize the so-called "aggressiveness" of 8's yet aren't all that aggressive themselves and/or don't actually value aggression when it does crop up on the forum somehow, unfortunately, ends up perpetually associated with type 6. In the real world, I don't think this phenomenon really takes place that often, and not to the extent fantasized here. I'm emphasizing American work culture here as an extreme bias, but the kind of "aggression" that comes off as appealing in at least my environment is actually more along the lines of types 2, 3, and 7, in being "emotionally intelligent," go after opportunities, and being able to give solutions to other people, influence others to their potential, etc - as better, more effective solutions to how we stereotype 8. 

I'm not clear as to why we idealize excessive aggression as stereotyped of 8's. A lot of people off-forum do just the opposite and vilify them, which quite honestly, isn't fair to real 8's, the ones who don't even come off as being that overtly aggressive and just go about their business.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Figure_

Excessive aggression or even "aggression" by itself is definitely not lionized in the workplace. It's the 2, 3, 7 version of assertiveness, drive and amicability that are far more valued and even practical. 
In general, anyone who idealizes aggression is unlikely to be assertive themselves. A lack of assertiveness manifests both ways- as being unable to stand up for ones interests AND conversely showing disproportionate aggression, especially as a pattern.This is basically a mix of having lost ones balance of mind and control over the situation. Most mature 8s, while naturally forceful (something conflict averse personalities can mistake as aggression), are more likely to be assertive rather than "aggressive" interpersonally. The same applies to cp6s, 3s, 7s etc. contrary to forum stereotyping.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Vajra said:


> Most mature 8s, while naturally forceful, are more likely to be assertive rather than "aggressive" interpersonally.


Unless they perceive threat, particularly serious threat. Then all bets are off, where scorched earth isn't off the table.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Duo said:


> Unless they perceive threat, particularly serious threat. Then all bets are off, where scorched earth isn't off the table.


Actually, I'd say @Vajra's key word "mature" makes a huge difference in that a mature 8 under threat will in fact still act assertively, not necessarily aggressively in the light as discussed here.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Figure said:


> Actually, I'd say Vajra's key word "mature" makes a huge difference in that a mature 8 under threat will in fact still act assertively, not necessarily aggressively in the light as discussed here.


Not sure that's necessarily true, regardless of maturation level. Magnitude of threat will drive response where assertiveness and aggression reside on the same continuum.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Figure said:


> Actually, I'd say @Vajra's key word "mature" makes a huge difference in that a mature 8 under threat will in fact still act assertively, not necessarily aggressively in the light as discussed here.





Duo said:


> Not sure that's necessarily true, regardless of maturation level. Magnitude of threat will drive response where assertiveness and aggression reside on the same continuum.


Also I'm pretty sure culture will also play a part, for instance Marine culture is built off of being aggressive. When we become veterans we have to learn to adjust to society by lowering or balancing our aggression, but within the culture of the Corps aggression is inherent, no matter what maturity level you are at, or what age you are. This is much more apparent on the enlisted end rather than the officer end but nevertheless Marine culture as a whole is built off of being aggressive.

@Vajra I haven't forgotten about you, just too lazy to write up a long response, I'll get to it eventually. I'll be honest, I have a tendency to say that and forget to respond though (I have a backlog of PM's and posts I have to also respond too), so I'll try my hardest to remember to respond to your post within the next 48 hours.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Deus Absconditus said:


> Also I'm pretty sure culture will also play a part, for instance Marine culture is built off of being aggressive. When we become veterans we have to learn to adjust to society by lowering or balancing our aggression, but within the culture of the Corps aggression is inherent, no matter what maturity level you are at, or what age you are. This is much more apparent on the enlisted end rather than the officer end but nevertheless Marine culture as a whole is built off of being aggressive.


Culture is a good point.



> @_Vajra_ I haven't forgotten about you, just too lazy to write up a long response, I'll get to it eventually. I'll be honest, I have a tendency to say that and forget to respond though (I have a backlog of PM's and posts I have to also respond too), so I'll try my hardest to remember to respond to your post within the next 48 hours.


Don't worry. I don't think I'll be able to discuss it for too much longer anyway. I don't have much else to add, and more importantly, I want to finish up a post I am working on for another thread, before I head off again.  I'll be pretty busy, in general. It's almost time for me to stop fucking around on Perc, and get back to tedious stuff IRL. XD


I appreciate the mention, though.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Deus Absconditus said:


> Also I'm pretty sure culture will also play a part, for instance Marine culture is built off of being aggressive. When we become veterans we have to learn to adjust to society by lowering or balancing our aggression, but within the culture of the Corps aggression is inherent, no matter what maturity level you are at, or what age you are. This is much more apparent on the enlisted end rather than the officer end but nevertheless Marine culture as a whole is built off of being aggressive


Fair enough, and to add to that, no matter what type you are. I'm talking type itself, not type + environment, upbringing, etc.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

To be honest, I'm confused what "assertive" vis-a-vis "aggressive", even means here. I live in a culture that highly values conflict-avoidance for example, and where people are far more prone to use passive-aggressive behavior than to assert. For example, if someone sees someone else smoking inside the bus stop they may give some glares but won't do anything about the situation. People are taught to be conflict-avoidant to a fault. Very reflected I think, in the telemarketing culture and how people in various countries treat telemarketing employees. Here, few people can't even tell you off but will give you some excuse and hope you stop call them anyway. As an example.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Figure said:


> Fair enough, and to add to that, no matter what type you are. I'm talking type itself, not type + environment, upbringing, etc.


Understood, but if we're talking type itself then we should stick to what equally applies to the individuals that make up that type. If someone was to meet a Marine 8 that isn't use to that culture then it would be a fallacious claim to assume that they lacked maturity, or wasn't at their highest level of maturity because they naturally are more aggressive than non-Marines. Pretty much what I'm getting at is that the level of aggression has nothing to do with level maturity, but what does have to do with maturity is if ones aggression is damaging their personal life or benefitting it. Its how you use your aggression that determines your maturity, either you have no control over your aggression leading it to sporadically act/react in a negative way that negatively impacts/influences your life (less mature/ more unhealthy) or you are able to control, direct, and utilize your aggression to accomplish objectives that benefit your life (more mature/less unhealthy).

Also another thing that needs to be mentioned that all people don't perceive healthiness/maturity levels the same, depending on type and culture. What one person thinks is less mature another could perceive as extremely mature. Aggression to one could be seen as insecure, while to another it could be seen as being a trait of confidence.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Deus Absconditus said:


> Also another thing that needs to be mentioned that all people don't perceive healthiness/maturity levels the same, depending on type and culture. What one person thinks is less mature another could perceive as extremely mature. Aggression to one could be seen as insecure, while to another it could be seen as being a trait of confidence.



Yup, this is what I am trying to get at, a little. I percieve the reason behind my actions differently from other people, and I think people tend to be biased to perceive things through their own core type lens, also, so 6s may think that overly aggressive behavior may be a sign of counterphobia and thus in a sense, immaturity etc. And that's removing the cultural scope the environment may have on these perceptions, also. What in a certain environment such as a contact sport is seen as acceptable may not be seen as acceptable in a workplace e.g. tumbling another person is obviously not otherwise acceptable unless you are playing say, American football.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Yup, this is what I am trying to get at, a little. *I percieve the reason behind my actions differently from other people, and I think people tend to be biased to perceive things through their own core type lens, also, so 6s may think that overly aggressive behavior may be a sign of counterphobia and thus in a sense, immaturity etc.* And that's removing the cultural scope the environment may have on these perceptions, also. What in a certain environment such as a contact sport is seen as acceptable may not be seen as acceptable in a workplace e.g. tumbling another person is obviously not otherwise acceptable unless you are playing say, American football.


Growing up in an abusive environment that was also built around being aggressive, and then joining the Corps which is also built around aggression has led me to becoming more aggressive throughout my life while also learning how to control it, direct it, and utilize it better. Now I have traveled around and experienced different cultures, also being a mixed person I have lived through different cultures and I have seen my aggression be perceived by different people as different things. I have had people call me immature or assume I was insecure because of it, and I have had people call me mature and confident because of my aggression along with a plethora of other things different people have attributed differently to my aggression. After experiencing everything I have, along with coming across all different types of people and culture it becomes obvious that people initially judge according to their preconceived notions and these preconceived notions differ greatly among humans.


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