# Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!



## perfectcircle

I heard a rumor we're super rare , and I haven't run into any other of my tri-type on the forum, is there anyone else out there (in any order) of the 548 variety? We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct (and often intense, though perhaps not as much as some like the 864) tri-types. Agree or disagree?

I'd love to talk about what it's like to be a 854, and hear other person's experiences with being this type, partly to find some peers, partly for interesting reading/get discussion going, and partly to form a better understanding of the tri-type/myself to work into my self-knowledge, but that's irrelevant...

Does madhatter's collected tri-type descritption of the 458 fit you pretty well? Discuss 
Here it is:



> 458 – The Scholar Archetype
> 
> The 845 is the somewhat introverted, intelligent, headstrong, detached, hyper introspective problem solver with strategic thinking and emotional astuteness.
> 
> *Darkest tritype-458, 854, 584 (particularly when 4 or 5 are in charge)
> 
> Also if you are still considering 548 (or 845): she said this is the the most intense type, particularly if sexual. Intuitive, knowledgeable and direct. This is the type that really craves knowing what makes people tick and builds what she calls mental or internal maps that are quite astute as to what makes people do what they do. This tends to be the darkest of the tritypes because of the intensity of the 3 types (particularly if 4 or 5 is in charge). David said there is a propensity toward the grotesque, anatomical or intensely esoteric. This is the "true scholar" and the life mission is to disseminate what information is found. The blind spot is this has 3 types that can be prone to arrogance and the attachment to the internal map of what they've found can make them blind to new information as it comes in. So there will be a tendency to become fixed in their worldview or ideas particularly about people and not take in new information. So while the map is quite extraordinary that they've painted they may miss a whole region and thus not have the full picture. This is also the most cynical and the tendency to be so overly opinionated can make people turn off to their wisdom. She said when 8 is in charge there is a bit more compassion, and with an integrated 5 or 4 in charge you get a gifted spiritual teacher (Russ Hudson for example)
> An intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and to find the hidden meaning in all things.
> 
> 874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.
> 
> ‎854 and 862 share the self-possessed confidence with solution mastery. The 854 is the artsy and intellectual 8 -- with a secret self-consciousness. The 862 is the champion rescuer, protector with a great need to help-- more duty.
> 
> the 468 is a true challenger and truth teller. The 4 may be shy but this Tritype is very intense and reactive--quick to speak their mind. The 485 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts but less reactivity. Sexual instinct with 4 dominant makes both tritypes more intense. The 468, however, is more dutiful and feisty whereas the 458 is one of the tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.
> 
> ‎846 vs 845. These two tritypes are very different. Both take charge and seek solutions. The 846 is one of the most confrontational tritypes. The other is the 836. The 6 amplifies the 8 need for loyalty and trust. The 845 is more introverted and introspective. The 854 has 5 as a line of connection as well as in the tritype and makes this 8 more scholarly and focused on depth.
> 
> (4)-5-8 - The Power-Seeking 4
> 4-(5)-8 - The Reactive 5
> 4-5-(8) - The Withdrawn 8
> 
> Impenetrable inner world. They are complex individuals, but they are more characterized by the way they tend to push everyone away from them.
> 
> 5-8-4: Most Intense Five. Needs creativity. Can be moody and melancholy.
> 
> 458 is the most tough-minded and opinionated 4.
> 
> 458 - Knowledgeable and direct 4. Most analytical 4. Craves knowing what makes people tick. Stronger Opinions.
> 
> 845: Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. Most withdrawn 8, specially if introverted, 9 wing and/or sp.
> 
> The 458 is an active archetype...just more withdrawn...not passive like the librarian... more the expert as they gather knowledge but have a very definite point of view like the 478 and 468.
> 
> five with an eight fix: least intellectual, though perhaps the most mentally intense. unsettled by occasional fits of temper, sudden outbursts. affixed to notions of power; attitude of resigned realist. quietly guarded and insistent, may put others ill at ease.
> 
> eight with a four fix: the moody, loner eight. distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly
> personal mission. tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules
> and circumstances.
> 
> The 458 is more openly emotional and expressive. The 548 is more mental and reserved...like the difference between 4 and 5. Both are intuitive thinkers and tend to be introverted. They are intellectuals that take action when they feel strongly about something. Others are always surprised when the 8 appears as this tritype appears quiet.
> 
> A couple of distinctions...The 458 is more emotionally expressive than the 548. The content can be very different. The 458 is more inclined to talk about their feelings about a subject of interest whereas the 548 will be more reserved and speak about tinteresting facts about a subject. The energy of the 458 is focused on the analysis of their feelings first whereas the 548 is focused on the analysis of the information first.
> 
> Social increases the need to have the critical information needed to be interesting to others-- to be wise and in the know. Sp increases the focus on the the basics... the resources one must expend to have the information.What will the cost be? All 6 variations of the 458 will avoid being ignorant and speak up for what they believe in. For example, in contrast, the sp548 will be far more reluctant to speak than the sx845 but both fear being inadequate, incompetent and powerless.
> 
> The 4-5-8 is the most direct and blunt of all the tritypes, with the exception of perhaps 3-5-8
> 
> 874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.
> 
> seeing your place as in the shadows is exactly how the 458 describes themselves. The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 468 is the one that is hyper reactive and still seeks a fair authority. The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.
> 
> the 548 tritype is the 5 most likely to appear 4-ish.
> 
> I think that 458 tritype could be mis-typed as 5, but this is much less likely than a 548 being mis-typed as a 4. It is double reactivity and resultant emotional intensity/volatility of having 4 and 8 together that clashes with the 5, even when 5 is core.
> 
> out of 458/459/451 I'd guess that both 459 and 451 would seem more 5-like (or, more accurately, be more likely to be mis-typed as 5) than 458.
> 
> The 485 is an intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and find the hidden meaning in all things.
> 
> The 845 is more introverted intuition with the attention going inward. It can be darker and is more cynical.
> 
> (EIDB 548 tritype discussion thread: The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - 5 4 8 Tritype ):
> 
> [Intense, especially with sx first. Independent, dark, cynical. Most eccentric, creative 5 that tends to swing between detachment and emotionality. Most 4ish 5, especially with four wing. Tough-minded, analytical 4 that is staunchly individualistic. Withdrawn, sensitive, creative 8. "Scholar" archetype if I remember correctly. Wants to know what makes people tick.
> 
> Actually, I think this 5 would be more fantasy oriented than information oriented. This would be the dreamy 5.
> 
> What I was criticising was the implication that the unique view a 5-4-8 creates is a monolithic system which doesn't change or adjust due to presumably stasis or narcissism or an inability to take criticism. Dynamism, flux and big intellectual shifts are much more likely.
> While a 5-4-8 is likely to be an intellectual narcissist, I think any criticism that they are unable to change or adjust their view is the opposite of the case because there is an intense self-criticism as well. Change and flux are constant.
> 
> first, because 5-4-8's are unlikely to think in systems (which you've now agreed with), and second, because of their sensitivity to inconsistency, constant self-criticism and tendency to change positions.
> I think there is an element of truth in the description though, in that 5-4-8's can be wilfully perverse and too arrogant to accept criticism from others. But they are likely to outwardly repudiate that criticism, and then later modify their views accordingly rather than stubbornly retain their original position.
> 
> My experience of this type is of course my only experience of any kind, so hard to be 'objective'. But here goes. I find it a complex, contradictory and often perplexing type to be. The 3 numbers pull against each other, and there is no social element(3, 6, or 9) to smooth the way. This is exacerbated if you have SO as your last stacking. Although all generalisations are suspect (including this one), it is particularly hard to generalise about this tritype. This tritype seems peculiarly subject to flux, and thus can vary greatly, or have many different real selves.
> However, dark, eccentric, creative, cynical, sensitive, scholarly are not wide of the mark (although tend to create a caricature if taken too seriously). It's true that we tend to be intensely interested in the psychology of other people, if only because we are at an utter loss to figure out ourselves much of the time. In a way, we are natural scholars but too scholarly, polymathic and restless for universities these days, which reward the careerist specialist.
> 5-4-8's are subject to rapid oscillations of emotion and thought, equally capable of preternatural strength and weakness of mind at any given moment. One minute an angel, the next a cruel tyrant. A lot of love and a lot of hate. Exquisitely sensitive but all too capable of cruelty and callousness to others. One wants to know, in a totalizing and essential fashion, know poetically but know precisely as well, but never quite gets there.
> 
> We are paradox-mongers, live in metaphor, and are always trying to find new ways to say and see things (and hence are often pretentious) - i.e. iconoclasts - but can be as pedantic, systematic and anally analytical as anyone - i.e. using our 5-ness to beat others at their own games when they have underestimated us as loose, kooky or not with it.
> 5-4-8's have a predisposition to religion and philosophy, especially pessimistic and melancholic strains, but a commensurate disappointment with the lack of answers that satisfy us and a concomitant melancholy.
> 
> I would caution against such a romanticized view of this tritype as it may defeat the value of knowing one’s type. I would disagree with a lot of the first things you said about this combination – “many real selves” and “subject to flux”. I find a kind of coherency in that here you’ve got two reactive types (4,8) two rejection (5,8) two withdrawn (4,5) and three very independent, very resistant to anything that originates outside itself, and not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. The greatest fluctuation I feel is between feeling incredibly hard and strong to being very self-conscious and inept. Strong and Vulnerable are my two modes, brought out when I feel I am unable to make that leap across the fragments of words and space between myself and someone I have an interest in.
> 
> I believe Nietzsche and Gurdjieff were of this tritype, though G may have had 7 instead of 5, but Katherine Fauvre very much agreed with me when I said there was something “Hermetic” about this tri-type. There is a kind of de-construction of present systems and a reconstruction into something that subverts previously-held notions. I like to think of myself as an “ontological terrorist”. Nietzsche is a beautiful illustration of what I see as the gift of this tritype – of staring past the fragility in the conceptions humans, as living and rational beings, hope to cling to and look into something “under”, to poke around in [blocked due to guideline #4 violation], and reveal the beauty within it. Hades operates under a kind of 854 archetypal pattern. There’s the destructive power and energy to produce an impact of 8, along with the “ground-up” construction and innovation of 5 with the creativity and will to rebirth of 4. Of course, that’s only there in the best examples of this tritype, a call the rest of us can only hope to live up to.
> 
> There are of course coherent factors - otherwise there wouldn't be a category. However, I still feel that the concept of change over time is very important to 548. I guess this is what I mean by different selves - the many different selves over one's life (which is also true of everyone). That is, think of Heraclitus's saw - you cannot step into the same river twice. Not just because the river has changed, but because you are - that minute to minute one's self is mutating, adapting, contradicting itself. This does not necessarily have to defeat the concept of a core coherent self, but certainly challenges it.
> 
> I disagree with your point that 548s are not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. While these three values are pretty hard to attain, and difficult to define, they are pretty important to me, at least some of the time - and especially in any discrete intellectual task I want to complete.
> 
> I think our tritype is especially gifted with calling it’s fundamental beliefs into constant question. You’ve got 4’s emphasis on self-creation and thus change, the 5’s emphasis on clear perception, innovation, curiosity, and the 8 that confronts and challenges. There is always a readiness to undermine ourselves with an aim at change, but shows us what crap each construct we hold at every stage of growth really is and there is always the correct suspicion that whatever construct we hold in the present is simply a construction.]
> 
> 5-4-8: more reactive and temperamental, such Fives find it harder to control their emotions than other tritypes. They are basically sensitive, reclusive and ingenious, occasionally indulging in (romantic) day-dreams and fantasies, but once in a while their fierce, visceral side reveals itself explosively and gets to surprise people who don’t know them well. These Fives are usually selfish and whimsical, considering themselves entitled to special treatment which they will sometimes claim aggressively. They are prone to mood swings and rage outbursts.
> typical subtypes: sexual, self-preserving, 5w4
> similar tritypes: 5-8-4, 4-5-8
> flavours: innovative, temperamental, egocentric and intense
> 
> 5-8-4: original, rebellious, temperamental and highly individualistic and independent, these Fives are can be extremely self-focused and mostly unconcerned with other people’s feelings and wants. They are often inspired and have great vision which they strive to turn into reality – they have a practical side which helps them. Although brilliant and resourceful, others may find it hard to deal with their self-important, narcissistic behavior and their oversensitivity to frustration – their violent reactions can be scary.
> typical subtypes: sexual, 5w4, 5w6 (counterphobic wing)
> similar tritypes: 5-4-8, 8-5-4
> flavours: resourceful, defiant, visionary and reactive


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## perfectcircle

Wow, we are rare. So far I am the only one!! (the four in me really likes this, quick come prove me wrong and pop my bloated ego).


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## madhatter

Go onto Enneagram Institute Discussion Board. You can't throw a rock without hitting one over there.


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## perfectcircle

yes' ma'am, thanks for the info


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## Spades

There are at least 3 more in here.
I used to think I was one as well, but I'm a 748.

Careful with tritype descriptions. They are way too generalized.


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## newnameything

Just curious: what do tritypes explain that "normal" types don't?


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## perfectcircle

whore said:


> Just curious: what do tritypes explain that "normal" types don't?


Just more in depth. My mom is a 4-5-9, I'm a 4-5-8, there are real differences.

I mean, the tri-type is basically the type you use in each center, "heart", "head", or "gut".

to @Spades, curious, you think I'm not a 5-4-8?

Possible I'm a 4-6-9....? maybe?.... But I just relate to five SO much, almost as much as four...


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## madhatter

whore said:


> Just curious: what do tritypes explain that "normal" types don't?


Good question. I see tritypes as supplementary. The core type is what is really important and vital to self-growth, but the tritype just adds subtypes into the system. It's based on the theory that despite having a core type in one of the centers/triads [center being the anger center (8, 9, 1), the shame center (2, 3, 4), and the fear center (5, 6, 7)], everyone has access to the other two centers as well. So the other two types are secondary, and it is used to explain how that person deals with that particular center. You can't integrate or disintegrate from the secondary types, and the motivations of those types are dominated by the motivations of the core type.


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## perfectcircle

or just listen to @madhatter, she's the expert lol


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## madhatter

adverseaffects said:


> or just listen to madhatter, she's the expert lol


:blushed: No your answer was good too.


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## perfectcircle

madhatter said:


> :blushed: No your answer was good too.


hahaha oh please gurl do your thing ;D


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## Spades

adverseaffects said:


> to @_Spades_ , curious, you think I'm not a 5-4-8?
> 
> Possible I'm a 4-6-9....? maybe?.... But I just relate to five SO much, almost as much as four...


Nope, I never said I had any doubt. Just to watch out for the tritype descriptions as they are essentially inductive and one should focus on the individual types inside. Also, 4 and 5 are the rarest types, and have the most mistypes. I wouldn't count 6 out, but I'm not arguing your type at all =)


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## perfectcircle

Spades said:


> Nope, I never said I had any doubt. Just to watch out for the tritype descriptions as they are essentially inductive and one should focus on the individual types inside. Also, 4 and 5 are the rarest types, and have the most mistypes. I wouldn't count 6 out, but I'm not arguing your type at all =)


Yeah, and 8 is pretty rare too, which makes me wonder if I'm kidding myself haha, oh well time will tell...

I could even be 4-5-1......?
maybe I am not even a four.......
I hate picking accurate constructs ITS NOT EVEN REAL ANYWAYS


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## marzipan01

adverseaffects said:


> Just more in depth. My mom is a 4-5-9, I'm a 4-5-8, there are real differences.
> 
> I mean, the tri-type is basically the type you use in each center, "heart", "head", or "gut".
> 
> to @Spades, curious, you think I'm not a 5-4-8?
> 
> Possible I'm a 4-6-9....? maybe?.... But I just relate to five SO much, almost as much as four...


You're definitely not a 469 nor a 451. 
478 sounds right. 
Your posts are so energetic and excited. I resonate with what you write so much. 
I, personally oscillate between 648 and 748. I've decided there's no need to decide which. 
I think 478 sounds right for your general energy.


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## perfectcircle

marzipan01 said:


> You're definitely not a 469 nor a 451.
> 478 sounds right.
> Your posts are so energetic and excited. I resonate with what you write so much.
> I, personally oscillate between 648 and 748. I've decided there's no need to decide which.
> I think 478 sounds right for your general energy.


Hmmm I'll look into it, I always explained that energy with the so/sx instinct, the so called "lightest-four", but there may be something to that!


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## Dark Romantic

Seven vs. four is pretty easy to tell, in my experience. How do you tend to think of yourself?


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## perfectcircle

Dark Romantic said:


> Seven vs. four is pretty easy to tell, in my experience. How do you tend to think of yourself?


Oh, I KNOW my core type is four. The tri-type is potentially up for grabs though... How do I tend to think of myself??

Um there's several different elements but I guess in-between someone puncturing my ego and someone proving me wrong in my self image I think I am

-real
-honest
-adventerous
-intelligent
-insightful
-analytical
-understanding
-two selves- the self I show to the world that lets things slide for everyone, graceful, tactful, can be funny but also distant, cannot stay with peopel too long because she runs out of material, gives people the benefit of the doubt, does not reveal about herself, goes with the flow, has energy, "likes" everyone but does not mean anything, and then the inner island self, few make it in, I truly reveal myself here and want people that make it in to stay and I will be loyal to them, I am willing to fight for and with these people because with them the truth matters and others are just passing by.


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## Dark Romantic

adverseaffects said:


> Oh, I KNOW my core type is four. The tri-type is potentially up for grabs though... How do I tend to think of myself??
> 
> Um there's several different elements but I guess in-between someone puncturing my ego and someone proving me wrong in my self image I think I am
> 
> -real
> -honest
> -adventerous
> -intelligent
> -insightful
> -analytical
> -understanding
> -two selves- the self I show to the world that lets things slide for everyone, graceful, tactful, can be funny but also distant, cannot stay with peopel too long because she runs out of material, gives people the benefit of the doubt, does not reveal about herself, goes with the flow, has energy, "likes" everyone but does not mean anything, and then the inner island self, few make it in, I truly reveal myself here and want people that make it in to stay and I will be loyal to them, I am willing to fight for and with these people because with them the truth matters and others are just passing by.


For some reason, this post makes me think 478... if I knew why, I'd tell you.


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## perfectcircle

Dark Romantic said:


> For some reason, this post makes me think 478... if I knew why, I'd tell you.


Thought I replied to this, odd... I'll check it out.


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## marzipan01

adverseaffects said:


> Hmmm I'll look into it, I always explained that energy with the so/sx instinct, the so called "lightest-four", but there may be something to that!


All I'm saying is you're definitely not a 9 or 1 for your instinct.
478 tritype really does seem to be very similar to your energy. But, of course, it's ultimately up to what you think describes you best. After all, you're the one who knows yourself the best.


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## perfectcircle

@marzipan01

I actually really think you may be right... I'll turn over being a 5 or 7 for a while, but I never would have even thought of it if you hadn't mentioned, because fours "depressive" stance conflicts with seven I always tested low on it, but actually... there's something there. As for me knowing myself the best, yeah, well, obviously not haha xD


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## perfectcircle

> *Outwardly, you are confident but inwardly you are emotionally vulnerable. Life Mission: Your life mission is to find truth and communicate your findings. *A true messenger, you are happiest when you use your creativity to find compassionate ways to understand yourself and empower others. Blind Spot: You can be so focused on your opinions, insights and what is new and profound that your freedom seeking nature can come across as arrogant, resistant, and/or uncooperative.
> This tritype is the most creative type on the enneagram regardless of which type is in charge. This creativity may or may not have artistic talent but always has a sense of aesthetics. All three crave authenticity, depth and individuality,
> *The 487 craves attention, affirmation and mirroring more than autonomy and freedom. They need to be mirrored as not only unique but highly original. Their greatest demands are those they make of themselves.
> *
> 
> *4-7-8 is the most individualistic and fun-loving 4*. *Appear more self-possessed as sadness is hidden*


Decisions, decisions.... oh well, it'll come to me, no need to decide who I am right now.

But, these do seem to apply when I compare myself to the fours I see on the forum... I mean, sometimes I may not even look like a four and I'm aware of that, but I am, it's just the self-absorption, black hole morass of feeling and ego need to confirm to a certain elite image is hidden or more, I distract myself from it. The issue of disttraction is very seven, and that rings true to me. I kind of want an ennegram expert to come in her and tell it me straight, I just feel pretentious picking all these rare types.


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## marzipan01

adverseaffects said:


> Decisions, decisions.... oh well, it'll come to me, no need to decide who I am right now.
> 
> But, these do seem to apply when I compare myself to the fours I see on the forum... I mean, sometimes I may not even look like a four and I'm aware of that, but I am, it's just the self-absorption, black hole morass of feeling and ego need to confirm to a certain elite image is hidden or more, I distract myself from it. The issue of disttraction is very seven, and that rings true to me. I kind of want an ennegram expert to come in her and tell it me straight, I just feel pretentious picking all these rare types.


I know what you mean. lol. 

But it makes sense because 6-3-9 follows one course of integration and disintegration. So, for the same reason a 6, 3, or 9 would have difficulty distinguishing which was their core motive of the three, the 175824 track can have a similar problem. That's my personal opinion anyway. The key is that those on the 175824 track just know that they can't seem to "fit in". 
1's because they strive for perfection--i.e. morals conflict with societal trends.
7's because of the freedom--they're hyper aware to the restrictions placed on them by others. 
5's for obvious reasons (feel like aliens). 
8's because they have a way of commanding attention. 
2's because they pride themselves on being more helpful than other people. 
4's because they seek to address the un-addressed emotion in the room--thus, always different. 

The 369 on the other hand tries to blend in and does so very well. 
For the rest of us, all we know is we don't fit and it's not clear why.

For you, I think 478 sounds correct because, to me the key characteristic of the 478, is the "flamboyant" energy. 
The 4 will make you more sensitive and deeper than the average 7, though you still reach for that excitement and lust for life of the 7-8 combination. 

You do know yourself best. Enneagram is nothing more than a description of your motives, that help you to see your motivational path and defense mechanisms objectively. The idea is ultimately to transcend them.


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## BroNerd

madhatter said:


> Go onto Enneagram Institute Discussion Board. You can't throw a rock without hitting one over there.


I wonder how many of them are faux 458-584-845 types though..


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## madhatter

BroNerd said:


> I wonder how many of them are faux 458-584-845 types though..


My thoughts exactly.


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## perfectcircle

I may be a faux 458 now. Now I think i may be a 478.

I mean
the three rarest types? That seems a bit much. I'm unusual but maybe not that unusual.


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## newnameything

I don't think it's more in depth, but the other way around. 

I'm E5, and also assertive and sometimes real moody. Had I believed in tritypes, I'd probably say I was 5-4-8. But to me, that's just smacking together surface traits and ignoring those types motivations/fears and defense mechanisms. 

@adverseaffects, do you, for example, ever control other people out of a deeply rooted fear that if you don't, they will control you?


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## Ventricity

here i was to respond to a fellow 548/458, but then you change? forget it then


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## perfectcircle

whoops
@whore, yeah kind of. Mostly my family. I do believe in tri-types though, my dad is a 6-3-8 or 6-8-3 and the only way I could possibly explain his personality is the motivations/manifestations in behvaior in each. It maps him out, all his conflicting drives.
AS for myself, it's a little more confusing to straighten myself out, but I think that's a function of time.

@Ventricity
I am still one.. as of now... come back? (what have i done...)


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## Animal

adverseaffects said:


> I heard a rumor we're super rare , and I haven't run into any other of my tri-type on the forum, is there anyone else out there (in any order) of the 548 variety? We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct (and often intense, though perhaps not as much as some like the 864) tri-types. Agree or disagree?
> 
> I'd love to talk about what it's like to be a 854, and hear other person's experiences with being this type, partly to find some peers, partly for interesting reading/get discussion going, and partly to form a better understanding of the tri-type/myself to work into my self-knowledge, but that's irrelevant...
> 
> Does madhatter's collected tri-type descritption of the 458 fit you pretty well? Discuss
> Here it is:


I'm still grasping this whole"tritype" concept but according to my enneagram scores throughout the last10 years when I take tests, and my personality, I'm certainly a 5w4, and the other two are definitely 8w9 and 4w(???) . I'm gonna say 5 though I do have an over-achiever streak in me.

Anyway either way I'm a 584 or a 548. I'm very fantasy oriented; I'm working on a multiple hundred page fantasy novel now. I write music and it's set in yet another fantasy world, and I like playing out these fantasies through art, music, video, writing, etc. Definitely, Earth is a place I visit, and then I go back to my home planet. So I relate to some of these descriptions. However I'm not temperamental, defiant, etc. I know many 5s who are much more temperamental than I. I'm emotionally expressive and very assertive for a 5 but definitely not temperamental!!

How do you know if you're a 548 or a 584?


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## madhatter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> I'm still grasping this whole"tritype" concept but according to my enneagram scores throughout the last10 years when I take tests, and my personality, I'm certainly a 5w4, and the other two are definitely 8w9 and 4w(???) . I'm gonna say 5 though I do have an over-achiever streak in me.
> 
> Anyway either way I'm a 584 or a 548. I'm very fantasy oriented; I'm working on a multiple hundred page fantasy novel now. I write music and it's set in yet another fantasy world, and I like playing out these fantasies through art, music, video, writing, etc. Definitely, Earth is a place I visit, and then I go back to my home planet. So I relate to some of these descriptions. However I'm not temperamental, defiant, etc. I know many 5s who are much more temperamental than I. I'm emotionally expressive and very assertive for a 5 but definitely not temperamental!!
> 
> How do you know if you're a 548 or a 584?


If you're 5w4 and have a 4-fix, I would check out 4w3. Being 5w4 with 4w5-fix is a very rare and strange type. I shall quote our estimable moderator Scruffy on this subject:


Scruffy said:


> (Be wary, a 4w5 with a 5w4 fix, is a very, very, weird and uncommon type. You are probably not one)


Also, in regards to the 548 vs 584: it doesn't really matter...at least that's my opinion. (Others have different views on the subject...one opinion is that the order that the fixes are listed is the order that you use them. Another is that you have to order them clockwise around the Enneagram chart.) After you have your core type nailed, ordering is rather arbitrary. I like to envision the tritype as a pyramid, with the core type as the pinnacle and the other two fixes as supplementary, supporting the core type, but on equal level with each other. So however you choose to order them, it's entirely up to you.


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## Animal

madhatter said:


> If you're 5w4 and have a 4-fix, I would check out 4w3. Being 5w4 with 4w5-fix is a very rare and strange type. I shall quote our estimable moderator Scruffy on this subject:
> 
> Also, in regards to the 548 vs 584: it doesn't really matter...at least that's my opinion. (Others have different views on the subject...one opinion is that the order that the fixes are listed is the order that you use them. Another is that you have to order them clockwise around the Enneagram chart.) After you have your core type nailed, ordering is rather arbitrary. I like to envision the tritype as a pyramid, with the core type as the pinnacle and the other two fixes as supplementary, supporting the core type, but on equal level with each other. So however you choose to order them, it's entirely up to you.


Thank you for your thoughts! Is there any way to know if I have that 4-fix? Anything written on it? It seems I'm rather an anomaly, enneagram wise, in some ways... I'd be curious to know... by the way, I'm a 5w4, so the fix would be 4w5. let me know if you can find anything on it 

Edit: thanks for specifying... I see what you mean; the whole description of 548 and 584 does seem to fit together. Yay!


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## madhatter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> Thank you for your thoughts! Is there any way to know if I have that 4-fix? Anything written on it? It seems I'm rather an anomaly, enneagram wise, in some ways... I'd be curious to know... by the way, I'm a 5w4, so the fix would be 4w5. let me know if you can find anything on it
> 
> Edit: thanks for specifying... I see what you mean; the whole description of 548 and 584 does seem to fit together. Yay!


I would read up on 4w5 and 4w3, and see which one resonates better. However, take this process with a grain of salt, because descriptions aren't always that well written. These descriptions, although short, are good. And check type 4 on this site and this site...the descriptions are good as well. 

A 4's fixation is on authenticity. The wing is how they express that desire. Also, keep in mind that as a core-5, the other fixes won't be expressed as strongly as the core...the fixes are not 1+1+1. How it was explained to me is that tritype is core+approach. So if you are a core-5 with a 4-fix, you approach the center of shame/image as a 4. Would you say that being authentic and unique is very important to you?


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## Animal

I don't care about being unique, but I've always just been unique. It's not my style or my clothes or my presentation, but the fact that I wrote my first musical about a group of prostitutes at age 11, and my first 400 page sci-fi novel about another prostitute (yeah, obsessed) on another planet at age 12. These things were kept secret; I never showed "the whole picture" to anyone though I showed some individual out-of-context songs. Additionally, i've never been interested in television at all - I don't think it's bad to watch tv, nor is my non-interest something to boast about.... it's just that there are more fun things to do....  ... as an adult, I write novels, write concept albums, and dress up as alter egos on stage (including a male alter ego)...... this is all *expression* of my other-worlds, but I really have no desire to "stand out..." I just do what I do. Also, it's a pet peeve, when I write a song that's catchy and another band member says "it's predictable." My rule is, if someone can't hum the song in their head after hearing it once, it's not a song worth showing to the band or performing. My songs are not simple by any means, but my point is I'm not aiming to do "weird" things just to show people that I 'did something unique'. I just love to express what's real, and what everyone can relate to, and bring others into an imaginary world ; if I can.

About being authentic, I also can't help that. I say what I'm thinking or feeling for better or worse, or else I don't speak at all. I've never been able to be fake, sell myself , charm someone to get what I want, or even flirt effectively (though I've been accused of being "naturally flirtatious" - I am certain this is a misconception and just refers to me being friendly when I'm in a good mood, which contrasts my usual intensity). I love theater and alter-egos for the purpose of expression, but the issue of personal identity seems almost frivolous and silly to me. But I score high on enneagram 4 tests, VERY high, slightly under 5 and 8 haha.. because I am sensitive to beauty, very emotional, etc.




madhatter said:


> I would read up on 4w5 and 4w3, and see which one resonates better. However, take this process with a grain of salt, because descriptions aren't always that well written. These descriptions, although short, are good. And check type 4 on this site and this site...the descriptions are good as well.
> 
> A 4's fixation is on authenticity. The wing is how they express that desire. Also, keep in mind that as a core-5, the other fixes won't be expressed as strongly as the core...the fixes are not 1+1+1. How it was explained to me is that tritype is core+approach. So if you are a core-5 with a 4-fix, you approach the center of shame/image as a 4. Would you say that being authentic and unique is very important to you?


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## madhatter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> I don't care about being unique, but I've always just been unique. It's not my style or my clothes or my presentation, but the fact that I wrote my first musical about a group of prostitutes at age 11, and my first 400 page sci-fi novel about another prostitute (yeah, obsessed) on another planet at age 12. These things were kept secret; I never showed "the whole picture" to anyone though I showed some individual out-of-context songs. Additionally, i've never been interested in television at all - I don't think it's bad to watch tv, nor is my non-interest something to boast about.... it's just that there are more fun things to do....  ... as an adult, I write novels, write concept albums, and dress up as alter egos on stage (including a male alter ego)...... this is all *expression* of my other-worlds, but I really have no desire to "stand out..." I just do what I do. Also, it's a pet peeve, when I write a song that's catchy and another band member says "it's predictable." My rule is, if someone can't hum the song in their head after hearing it once, it's not a song worth showing to the band or performing. My songs are not simple by any means, but my point is I'm not aiming to do "weird" things just to show people that I 'did something unique'. I just love to express what's real, and what everyone can relate to, and bring others into an imaginary world ; if I can.
> 
> About being authentic, I also can't help that. I say what I'm thinking or feeling for better or worse, or else I don't speak at all. I've never been able to be fake, sell myself , charm someone to get what I want, or even flirt effectively (though I've been accused of being "naturally flirtatious" - I am certain this is a misconception and just refers to me being friendly when I'm in a good mood, which contrasts my usual intensity). I love theater and alter-egos for the purpose of expression, but the issue of personal identity seems almost frivolous and silly to me. But I score high on enneagram 4 tests, VERY high, slightly under 5 and 8 haha.. because I am sensitive to beauty, very emotional, etc.


Ha, from what you've written, it's probably a good chance that your gut-fix is 4. Although I can't tell which wing you have. See, I have a 3-fix, and I can't relate to much of anything that you said about image, haha. 

Another good/complex question: what is your relationship with shame? To steal from the Enneagram questionnaire, what makes you feel that way and how do you react to it?


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## Animal

madhatter said:


> Ha, from what you've written, it's probably a good chance that your gut-fix is 4. Although I can't tell which wing you have. See, I have a 3-fix, and I can't relate to much of anything that you said about image, haha.


Tell me about your relationship with image?? 



> Another good/complex question: what is your relationship with shame? To steal from the Enneagram questionnaire, what makes you feel that way and how do you react to it?


I don't have any shame. Never did. I am self-critical, and certainly assess where I went wrong (sometimes to the point of beating myself up over it), and in a logical manner I try to learn from it, and I always express my sad/bad/dark feelings freely in writing or music or photos... and I'm not even that shy about telling people mistakes I've made, and really analyzing why that happened so it won't happen again. Mistakes mean, if I did something to hurt someone else, or to get myself further from a goal... those are two stupid things... and if I hurt someone else I do everything I can to make it right!! But I don't feel SHAME. I just don't get it...

Do you??

Edit: If you're talking about body-shame I don't have that either. I don't think my body is perfect or gorgeous by any means but I don't see the need to be *ashamed* of it.. I am pretty out there on stage (like, I certainly don't have Lady Gaga's talent, nor her personal inclinations and aesthetic choices, but I have the balls to do anything she has done, if I so chose)...


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## madhatter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> Tell me about your relationship with image??
> 
> I don't have any shame. Never did. I am self-critical, and certainly assess where I went wrong (sometimes to the point of beating myself up over it), and in a logical manner I try to learn from it, and I always express my sad/bad/dark feelings freely in writing or music or photos... and I'm not even that shy about telling people mistakes I've made, and really analyzing why that happened so it won't happen again. Mistakes mean, if I did something to hurt someone else, or to get myself further from a goal... those are two stupid things... and if I hurt someone else I do everything I can to make it right!! But I don't feel SHAME. I just don't get it...
> 
> Do you??
> 
> Edit: If you're talking about body-shame I don't have that either. I don't think my body is perfect or gorgeous by any means but I don't see the need to be *ashamed* of it.. I am pretty out there on stage (like, I certainly don't have Lady Gaga's talent, nor her personal inclinations and aesthetic choices, but I have the balls to do anything she has done, if I so chose)...


My relationship with shame is about the same as you...hmmm, maybe you should check out 3. As a 3-fix (3w4 btw), I tend to control what and to whom I share and let out. But really, I have a weak connection to the image/shame center, I hardly feel shame...when I do, it's not very often, and it's very brief. Part of that is also that core-3s and 3-fixers have the tendency to be countershame. I'm pretty self-critical as well, and I'm very open and straight-forward about my weaknesses. I am however not very connected with my feelings in general. I of course have them, and I feel them very strongly at times, but I have trouble expressing in words what I'm feeling. I have a tendency to a) intellectualize and rationalize, or b) ignore them completely. I believe that's a combination of being 5w6 *and* being Fe-inferior. It's much more instinctual, and far less sophisticated than those who have a Feeling preference. I have a similar philosophy about mistakes: there's no use griping about them...if you can make it right, just do it. If you can't, learn from it and don't do it again. Don't stress yourself about it and wallow in guilt...it's not productive. My mom is a core-2 and she has this relationship to shame and guilt that I will never understand. I don't get it either. 2s experience an over-expression of their central emotion (shame), 4s experience an under-expression, and 3s are completely out of touch with it. So I would definitely consider 3 or 4 for your image fix.

(P.S. I'm not very ashamed of my body either. I am very 5-ish in the fact that I am quite oblivious of it. It drove my mom crazy when I was a kid. She has since washed her hands on the subject lol.)


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## Animal

madhatter said:


> My relationship with shame is about the same as you...hmmm, maybe you should check out 3. As a 3-fix (3w4 btw), I tend to control what and to whom I share and let out. But really, I have a weak connection to the image/shame center, I hardly feel shame...when I do, it's not very often, and it's very brief. Part of that is also that core-3s and 3-fixers have the tendency to be countershame.


I'm not sure if I'm 'countershame' or just don't feel it (I also grew up in an atheist family with two psychiatrists as parents.. that might make some difference? Perhaps I was taught that there's nothing productive about shame and instead we should face fixing our actions?)... this is difficult to determine. Do you think when you feel shame that you deny/ counter that feeling, or you just don't feel it in the first place?



> I'm pretty self-critical as well, and I'm very open and straight-forward about my weaknesses. I am however not very connected with my feelings in general. I of course have them, and I feel them very strongly at times, but I have trouble expressing in words what I'm feeling. I have a tendency to a) intellectualize and rationalize, or b) ignore them completely. I believe that's a combination of being 5w6 *and* being Fe-inferior.


Yeah I have an "F" in my MTBI type for sure, and a strong 4wing to my core type. I'm probably better at expressing my feelings than my thoughts, even if I have more thoughts than feelings?? Not sure... lol. I think the misconception that '5s don't have feelings' is kind of funny. In truth we're the most sensitive type, and we build up our castle walls to protect ourselves from being overwhelmed by the demands of the world & the emotions that it imposes on us. The other differences (tritype & MTBI) only deal with how we *handle* that sensitivity that is common to all 5s.



> It's much more instinctual, and far less sophisticated than those who have a Feeling preference. I have a similar philosophy about mistakes: there's no use griping about them...if you can make it right, just do it. If you can't, learn from it and don't do it again. Don't stress yourself about it and wallow in guilt...it's not productive. My mom is a core-2 and she has this relationship to shame and guilt that I will never understand. I don't get it either. 2s experience an over-expression of their central emotion (shame), 4s experience an under-expression, and 3s are completely out of touch with it. So I would definitely consider 3 or 4 for your image fix.


To me it sounds more like 4.. I don't think I'm 'out of touch' as much as ... I just don't think/feel that way? I don't know. I didn't realize the 'shame' issue was central to the feeling triad... that's interesting. The thing is, I relate to 3s because I'm a workaholic, and I relate to 4s because of my relationship to music, beauty, and the abstract. This is actually a very effective mode of communication for me - much more than any other - I've communicated my "true self" and "honesty" best through music & writing rather than direct conversation. Hmmm. Do you think the 4 and 3 fix can be distinguished by work habits & communication rather than just the shame-distinction?



> (P.S. I'm not very ashamed of my body either. I am very 5-ish in the fact that I am quite oblivious of it. It drove my mom crazy when I was a kid. She has since washed her hands on the subject lol.)


Hahahahahaha.... I relate to this - this is exactly me also! ROTFL


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## bearotter

@madhatter: I've just ironed out my knowledge of Jung types, and I'm very new to thinking about the enneagram. I tested 451, 541, 549(w8), in various instances. So now, knowing how easy it is to mistype using tests, I wanted to ask: what's the analogue of doing a cognitive functions assessment for MBTI, within the enneagram, if anything?

You suggested 5w4 and 4w5 is really rare. That was indeed a test result of mine. I think 4w3 might be reasonable, but I want to know how to actually gauge these things.

I'm responding to this thread, because just this morning, it occurred to me that I'm very surprised Type 8 is not part of my triad, because it seems like many of my other behaviors stem from something that sounds like type 8 mentality.

If type 8 is part of my triad, I'm quite sure I would be 8w9. 

Thank you for anything you can say to clarify at this naive stage.


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## madhatter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> I'm not sure if I'm 'countershame' or just don't feel it (I also grew up in an atheist family with two psychiatrists as parents.. that might make some difference? Perhaps I was taught that there's nothing productive about shame and instead we should face fixing our actions?)... this is difficult to determine. Do you think when you feel shame that you deny/ counter that feeling, or you just don't feel it in the first place?


I don't think that atheism is a correlating factor. I grew up in a Christian family, and am a Christian myself, and I still don't think that shame is productive.  I don't know...since I'm not a core-3, but core-5 instead, I think I just don't feel it. I believe a core-3 has the shame deep down, but denies it, just as a core-6 denies their doubt and a core-9 denies their anger. But I think the fact that I have a 3-fix just adds to my natural lack of shame. 



> Yeah I have an "F" in my MTBI type for sure, and a strong 4wing to my core type. I'm probably better at expressing my feelings than my thoughts, even if I have more thoughts than feelings?? Not sure... lol. I think the misconception that '5s don't have feelings' is kind of funny. In truth we're the most sensitive type, and we build up our castle walls to protect ourselves from being overwhelmed by the demands of the world & the emotions that it imposes on us. The other differences (tritype & MTBI) only deal with how we *handle* that sensitivity that is common to all 5s.


Yes, I don't like to perpetuate that misconception in any typology. I've heard both T-types and F-types say that T-types don't have feelings. Once, I actually responded in exasperation: "Of course we have feelings! We just don't like to express them or make judgments based off them." Like you said, we as 5s are extremely sensitive...not that I would let anybody see that voluntarily, ever.



> To me it sounds more like 4.. I don't think I'm 'out of touch' as much as ... I just don't think/feel that way? I don't know. I didn't realize the 'shame' issue was central to the feeling triad... that's interesting. The thing is, I relate to 3s because I'm a workaholic, and I relate to 4s because of my relationship to music, beauty, and the abstract. This is actually a very effective mode of communication for me - much more than any other - I've communicated my "true self" and "honesty" best through music & writing rather than direct conversation. Hmmm. Do you think the 4 and 3 fix can be distinguished by work habits & communication rather than just the shame-distinction?


I would caution you not to equate music, beauty, the abstract and such related things with 4. These are universal traits that all types can share. I have a lot for all those things, and 4 is one of the types that I relate to the least.  Although I would say communicating your "true self" through these things does sound rather 4-ish. 

There are other ways to distinguish between a 4- and 3-fix, I'm just not explaining it very well...like I said above, I have a hard time understanding 4. Another way to think about it is not just shame, but identity and self-worth. What defines these things will distinguish a 2 from a 3 and a 4. An average core-3 will change their identity to match whoever they're with. (It's the curse of being a primary type [i.e. 3, 6 or 9]). So while core-3 will strive to adapt the self-identity to "the values and expectations of others", 4s want to stay true themselves, be "authentic", etc. 

Homework: you should read The Centre of Type 3, The Centre of Type 4, Type 3 - Expanded, and Type 4 - Expanded. Also this link about the Feeling Center is a good "cliff notes" version of that center and its three types. These are some good materials to add your understanding about the differences between the two types. It's better than me just quoting all the stuff out of context, which I was half-tempted to do haha. Since the image-fix is a secondary fixation for you, it won't be as extreme as your core type is, but ideally, one should resonate more than the others. My image fix was very easy for me to find; my gut fix is the one that gives me the trouble. The jury is still out on that one.


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## madhatter

bearotter said:


> madhatter: I've just ironed out my knowledge of Jung types, and I'm very new to thinking about the enneagram. I tested 451, 541, 549(w8), in various instances. So now, knowing how easy it is to mistype using tests, I wanted to ask: what's the analogue of doing a cognitive functions assessment for MBTI, within the enneagram, if anything?


Personally, I would be cautious about mixing cognitive functions with enneagram or try to use one to determine the other. The two systems measure different things, and while there are some very loose correlations between Jungian types and Enneatypes, it's best to determine them separately. Also, if you are new to the Enneagram, I would also recommend determining your core type before you start wading through all the Enneagram stuff. The tritype is a fun theory, but it can be very confusing if you're just starting to get into a theory like Enneagram, which is complex without adding tritypes into the mix. I speak from personal experience.  



> You suggested 5w4 and 4w5 is really rare. That was indeed a test result of mine. I think 4w3 might be reasonable, but I want to know how to actually gauge these things.


Yes, the person who guided me through my beginning stages of understanding the Enneagram said that 5w4 plus a 4w5-fix and vice versa is incredibly rare, and I tend to agree with him. I've noticed that people who consider themselves extremely introverted will test as 5w4 4w5 9wX. All three are considered "withdrawn" types. Despite the number of 549/459/945s I see running around PerC, I have extreme doubts that that is their real types...I don't usually say anything though, because once many people begin to dig deeper, they usually will come to that conclusion themselves. Who am I to mess with the self discovery process? lol  

But enough of my preaching...what have you read about 1, 8, and 9? It is helpful to start reading about the types individually rather than tritype descriptions, because the tritype descriptions are very one-sided. So I would caution you away from the tritype description thread during this process (yes, I'm cautioning you away from my own thread...I can appreciate the irony XD).

The best way to determine between 4w5 and 4w3 is simply is to read as much as you can about both, and come to your own conclusion. I have no problem helping with the process, but it is extremely hard to give you the best analysis through the internet. The final decision always comes back to you.  Also, I know that I just cautioned you away from combining functions with Enneagram types, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm going to share one of those loose correlations that I've observed (personal experience, not tested or researched!): I noticed that Fe-users often have a 2-fix...so I would take that into consideration as well as 4. 



> I'm responding to this thread, because just this morning, it occurred to me that I'm very surprised Type 8 is not part of my triad, because it seems like many of my other behaviors stem from something that sounds like type 8 mentality.
> 
> If type 8 is part of my triad, I'm quite sure I would be 8w9.
> 
> Thank you for anything you can say to clarify at this naive stage.


You could very well have an 8-fix...I can't be 100% sure without more details. But also, core-5s integrate to 8. If you don't know about integration, it's a concept in Enneagram when a type grows healthier (i.e. higher in the levels of development), that type takes on healthy traits of the type that it's connected through what they call the "growth line" or "integration line". 5's growth line is to 8, so 5s will naturally have 8 qualities right off the bat. 

You are more than welcome. I'm more than happy to talk about Enneagram ad nauseum, so don't hesitate to ask me any questions about it. Hopefully, I've clarified some things for you, and I'm willing to answer any follow-up questions you have.


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## bearotter

Thank you for your very kind help! Here are my thoughts at the moment.



madhatter said:


> I've noticed that people who consider themselves extremely introverted will test as 5w4 4w5 9wX.


Yes, that is what seems to have happened to me!



> I would be cautious about mixing cognitive functions with enneagram or try to use one to determine the other. The two systems measure different things, and while there are some very loose correlations between Jungian types and Enneatypes, it's best to determine them separately


As clarification, I do intend to separate them very clearly, because in fact, one thing that led me to enneagram in the first place was that certain things that mistype the MBTI have to do more with enneagram. 

What I plan on taking from MBTI is that there are lots of ways to mistype, and that I should be very aware of stereotypes. That's why I wanted to figure out what "ultimately" determines your enneagram type, somewhat analogous to how cognitive function analysis is the ultimate test for MBTI, as opposed to any specific questionnaire's answers.



> would also recommend determining your core type before you start wading through all the Enneagram stuff.


Definitely. Right now, I'm guessing it's type 5. I have read around about 9, 8, 5, 4, 1, 2 mainly, and I know a few basics about the others, but these are the ones that seem to pertain most to me. I've heard about the 5 going to 8 when gaining confidence, in fact in a thread by LeaT, one of the posters who helped me understand MBTI better. 

The way I determined my enneagram 5 was a combination of it being suggested to me, it being what I tested when I was young, and personal reflection reading about what other types. I considered type 4, given that individualistic personality/behaviors are very typical of me, but these seem not to define me, and rather are my resort when I'm unable to deal with anxieties and paranoia by just knowing more than my adversaries (which could be people, or more abstract than that). I tested 4w5 on my first round ever, but I think 5w4 in retrospect fits me better, as I found a lot of the things that lead to mistyping as 4w5 applied to me (for one thing, I read 4w5's approach to emotions that are negative to them is a lot more self-indulgent ...sure I self-indulge at times, but generally it's in order to understand myself better and position myself so that more traditional 5w4 means of dealing with anxieties then succeed).

So effectively, 5 being my core type was based on indentifying with a fairly extreme tendency to fear helplessness, and overcome it with knowledge, logic, and theoretical foundation.

I read about 4w3 vs 4w5 in one thread with a link that was supposed to be good, and I think in that case, I genuinely feel 4w5 might fit me better. But I'm still unsure how enneagram works, and I hope you'll guide me a little on this one. 


What is a "fix" in relation to the tritypes? I think googling "fix" brought me some result about how it deals with the emotions that plunder a given core type. I'm not sure how that relates to the rest of enneagram theory.

I'm very new, but I tried to do a little homework by reading all sources I could manage to get to the bottom of what characterizes the types, and what's just a stereotype, so now I think I'll really flounder without some expert comments 

The reason I suspected 8 is that it seems to fit my tendencies much better than 9. I could see myself testing 8w9. I almost considered type 8 as my core, due to the association with aggression, perception of conflict to the extreme within various aspects of the world. But it doesn't fit my behaviors as well as type 5. Like you said, type 5 and 8 can share some things. But somehow, knowing myself, I feel that 8 should be in there somewhere. 

If I had to give my best bet right now, after doing some reading on the tritypes, the instinctual variants, and the cores and fixes, I'd guess I'm a 5w4, 548. 

What would help you help me clarify my type?


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## bearotter

> that type takes on healthy traits of the type that it's connected through what they call the "growth line" or "integration line".


This fits me with 5 going to 8, but I should comment, I think 8 displays itself in a way quite independently in my personality. That's certainly something we can talk more about, so you might help me ensure I'm not misinterpretting what a number appearing in the tritype means.

What I gather is that 5, 4, 8 are all quite deeply rooted in me, and almost all of the other of the 9 seem to appear in conjunction with one of these, depending on natural tendencies of these types in phases of healthiness and stress. For instance, a type 8 displaying type 2 tendencies in phases of growth would be something I really connect well with. I can think of people who deserve a 2 more in their types than I do, whereas my tendency to type 2 if at all seems to be indulging in something that makes a lot of sense when dealing in a *healthy* way with the realizations and emotions experienced by a type 8 nature deep down.


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## bearotter

OK, so what I know about 1: well, they are the "perfectionists/reformers," and their image as such as important to them, working very hard is important to them, and they direct their energies to righting the wrongs in various senses of a system not working. They deeply fear losing their integrity, losing their image. They may bottle up their emotions, not wanting to be seen as weak when exploding.

I should say, I don't fear either of the things they seem to fear. I am under the impression that imperfection is something to be embraced, and showing powerful emotions is no weakness. I simply don't care if it's acceptable or not, or if it bothers others or not. If it's not strategic, I won't do it though. But if all it will do is wreck my image in front of people I don't need to overcome in any way later on, I don't mind what their impression is.

As for 8: they see conflict as inherent to life, and thus feel the need to be strong and respected. Extremely sensitive to power issues, and the tendency to want more and more control over the situation, and the need to overpower is viewed as central. This sounds a bit like enneagram 5, except the way they deal with it is particular to them, it seems. 

9: Feel the need to exist in harmony with others, and will tend towards appreciating what it takes to maintain that, including various instances such as feeling included, etc. They have issues with inaction. I could easily see why this might correlate with being an INFJ, but that's one reason I wanted to bring it up -- I don't think it's the best enneagram fit for my third letter, assuming I have the first two right. I think my cognitive process of Fe makes sense, despite lots of tests saying otherwise, because at the core I'm very sensitive to people, and naturally drawn to them, but none of the descriptions of striving for harmony as my primary ideal really fit me. What is true is that I'd rather conflict not exist, but since I see it as so inherent, I feel that I favor the type 8 approach to dealing with it, hence why I suspected the 8w9 synergy.


----------



## Animal

I relate to this so much, I could have written it myself. Same with your other posts. I'll be interested to see how your case pans out!!



bearotter said:


> Thank you for your very kind help! Here are my thoughts at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that is what seems to have happened to me!
> 
> 
> 
> As clarification, I do intend to separate them very clearly, because in fact, one thing that led me to enneagram in the first place was that certain things that mistype the MBTI have to do more with enneagram.
> 
> What I plan on taking from MBTI is that there are lots of ways to mistype, and that I should be very aware of stereotypes. That's why I wanted to figure out what "ultimately" determines your enneagram type, somewhat analogous to how cognitive function analysis is the ultimate test for MBTI, as opposed to any specific questionnaire's answers.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely. Right now, I'm guessing it's type 5. I have read around about 9, 8, 5, 4, 1, 2 mainly, and I know a few basics about the others, but these are the ones that seem to pertain most to me. I've heard about the 5 going to 8 when gaining confidence, in fact in a thread by LeaT, one of the posters who helped me understand MBTI better.
> 
> The way I determined my enneagram 5 was a combination of it being suggested to me, it being what I tested when I was young, and personal reflection reading about what other types. I considered type 4, given that individualistic personality/behaviors are very typical of me, but these seem not to define me, and rather are my resort when I'm unable to deal with anxieties and paranoia by just knowing more than my adversaries (which could be people, or more abstract than that). I tested 4w5 on my first round ever, but I think 5w4 in retrospect fits me better, as I found a lot of the things that lead to mistyping as 4w5 applied to me (for one thing, I read 4w5's approach to emotions that are negative to them is a lot more self-indulgent ...sure I self-indulge at times, but generally it's in order to understand myself better and position myself so that more traditional 5w4 means of dealing with anxieties then succeed).
> 
> So effectively, 5 being my core type was based on indentifying with a fairly extreme tendency to fear helplessness, and overcome it with knowledge, logic, and theoretical foundation.
> 
> I read about 4w3 vs 4w5 in one thread with a link that was supposed to be good, and I think in that case, I genuinely feel 4w5 might fit me better. But I'm still unsure how enneagram works, and I hope you'll guide me a little on this one.
> 
> 
> What is a "fix" in relation to the tritypes? I think googling "fix" brought me some result about how it deals with the emotions that plunder a given core type. I'm not sure how that relates to the rest of enneagram theory.
> 
> I'm very new, but I tried to do a little homework by reading all sources I could manage to get to the bottom of what characterizes the types, and what's just a stereotype, so now I think I'll really flounder without some expert comments
> 
> The reason I suspected 8 is that it seems to fit my tendencies much better than 9. I could see myself testing 8w9. I almost considered type 8 as my core, due to the association with aggression, perception of conflict to the extreme within various aspects of the world. But it doesn't fit my behaviors as well as type 5. Like you said, type 5 and 8 can share some things. But somehow, knowing myself, I feel that 8 should be in there somewhere.
> 
> If I had to give my best bet right now, after doing some reading on the tritypes, the instinctual variants, and the cores and fixes, I'd guess I'm a 5w4, 548.
> 
> What would help you help me clarify my type?


----------



## Animal

Thank you so much for all your help!



madhatter said:


> I don't think that atheism is a correlating factor. I grew up in a Christian family, and am a Christian myself, and I still don't think that shame is productive.  I don't know...since I'm not a core-3, but core-5 instead, I think I just don't feel it. I believe a core-3 has the shame deep down, but denies it, just as a core-6 denies their doubt and a core-9 denies their anger. But I think the fact that I have a 3-fix just adds to my natural lack of shame.


Fair enough! 



> I would caution you not to equate music, beauty, the abstract and such related things with 4. These are universal traits that all types can share. I have a lot for all those things, and 4 is one of the types that I relate to the least.  Although I would say communicating your "true self" through these things does sound rather 4-ish.


Let me put it this way: my relationship with identity is unique. Do I sound like a 4 yet? haha.. It's very tempting to say "check out my website, you'll see what I mean" because the whole thing is so abstract that it's hard to put into words, and there's a whole fairy-tale; a personal mythology if you will. But I will attempt to sum it up.

I have three alter-egos. I don't "act" - they are all aspects of me, which are within me all the time, but are 'dressed up' and 'exaggerated' in videos or photos. The songs on my first album tell my 'mythological' allegorical tale and the album artwork portrays my male & female alter ego playing out their romance and conflicts. 

Additionally I weave this into other aspects of my life. These three egos/alter-egos are all on facebook. None are fake, or more real than another. Many people post on facebook about their projects and interests, politics, and deep personal thoughts. I divide this... one is my 'sweet childlike self' who posts about inspiring things like cute animals, upcoming shows (mine or other shows), beautiful landscapes. Another, my male alter-ego, posts the dark side of my creative thoughts , in the form of poetry or darker music or morbid videos etc. The third posts about politics and debates in a brash, straight-forward manner. This model allows me to express myself *more* because each aspect of me is nourished. 

My friends know who the egos/alter-egos are; I don't pretend it's not me; though the pictures of each look so different that it's hard to tell if you don't know (and the male really looks like a male though I look very feminine normally). Having been 'friends' with all three on facebook, people report that they forget they're all the same person, and they feel like they're talking to a completely different person. It's not that I have 'multiple personality disorder' or I 'change my personality to fit the situation' ..... those are all *real* constant aspects of me that evolve in different ways. It's a model of self-expression; it's "living life as art."

I love wearing costumes to express ideas & feelings in photos, video, or stage; but IRL, I really don't care about image. I have the kind of hometown where everyone runs into everyone, and gossips; so every appearance is a public appearance.. but I'll go out in pajamas, jeans, costumes if I'm in the middle of a shoot, gym clothes; whatever. I never wear makeup or high heels at all outside of performance. So I don't care what people think of "me" or how "I" come off to others, but I am very enchanted by the art of personal expression, and in that context, I really *feel* the impact of each color choice, jewelry piece, body motion.

Do you see why I'm having trouble with my image-fix? To me "image" is almost a joke - I challenge the notion of image, and portray that we can choose our own image without being dishonest. Also, image is a fun game to me. Nothing is more fun than dressing up as a *CONVINCING* man, who is truly lodged deep in my soul and hardly ever gets to come out!! :d

Edit: I want to add that this is "authentic" to me. Truly, I have these different 'sides' of myself and I am expressing them, being very faithful to my inner workings. I *do not* change my identity to fit a situation, or merge with another. I'm not charming. This post is too long. that is not charming.  I'm nothing less than honest, but the very idea of 'identity' has been toyed with thoroughly in my music, photos, & videos; and creativity is the center of my life & work.




> Homework: you should read The Centre of Type 3, The Centre of Type 4, Type 3 - Expanded, and Type 4 - Expanded. Also this link about the Feeling Center is a good "cliff notes" version of that center and its three types. These are some good materials to add your understanding about the differences between the two types. It's better than me just quoting all the stuff out of context, which I was half-tempted to do haha. Since the image-fix is a secondary fixation for you, it won't be as extreme as your core type is, but ideally, one should resonate more than the others. My image fix was very easy for me to find; my gut fix is the one that gives me the trouble. The jury is still out on that one.


Thank you! I read all of them.. those are great links. I've been into the enneagram for years (I must have forgotten the shame correlation) and I sort of "get" what makes each type tick to a degree, though I need to refresh my memory sometimes.

If it helps, here are my scores on the 144 question enneagram test which I re-took last week, in descending order:
Type 5: 28
Type 4: 22
Type 8: 21
Type 1: 19
Type 3: 14
Type 9: 13
Type 6: 13
Type 7: 7
Type 2: 6


May I ask what are your thoughts on your own gut fix? I'd love to hear what is troubling for you.... 

I think what is giving me trouble is that I don't understand the whole tritype theory at a conceptual level. I don't understand how the other 2 fixes pan out as opposed to the core type. I don't have a 4 core but I have some aspects of 4 obviously, in my strong 4 wing. My 8 fix is obvious - both 5s and 8s and other types have asked me, "are you sure you're not an 8?" It's quite strong; and yes it could be integration but it seems to be more ever-present.


----------



## emerald sea

he's not a member of PerC anymore, but Tortured is a 458. 

and i'm fairly confident one of my brothers is an 845...and Tortured reminds me of him to the nth degree (but that's not at all how i determined my brother's tritype - this brother and i grew up as best friends, talk in extreme depth, and still are extremely close; i know how he thinks and functions).


----------



## emerald sea

also - i do not accept ideas about the supposed "rarity" of certain enneatypes. they are all based on very limited statistics. i mean, get real...what proportion of the world's population has actually even been enneagram-tested? 

given the comparative novelty of this personality theory as compared against others (although i am well aware some people trace portions of it back to ancient times), how much of the world's population even is _aware_ that enneagram theory _exists_? 

the answer to both questions is: a very, very, very small fraction...so small that it is a tiny subset of the world population, not at all a microcosm of people at large. so i struggle to find it even remotely scientific to extrapolate anything about the distribution of enneatypes among the world population, on the basis of such a tiny, non-representative population sample that has been accurately enneagram-tested...

until enneagram theory becomes widely known and widely applied in many nations, to the degree that genuinely world-representative population samples can be recruited for ennea-testing, all statistics generated regarding the rarity or commonness of certain types are not worthy of any trust...in my opinion.

and...

with our focus on authenticity to self, and the true self, it makes perfect sense for Fours and Four-fixers to aggregate on sites that assist in discovery of self and promote acceptance of the true self...such as personality forums. so if Four is what enneagram theory defines it to be, and personality-typing sites exist to help people discover themselves, it only makes logical sense that Fours would be drawn to such sites in large numbers. so anyone who understands Fours and such sites would _expect_ to see a LOT of Fours on such sites. i find it difficult to understand why people question this, as if it somehow should _not_ be this way...?!?!

/incredulosity and logical 'reality-check'


----------



## Animal

so true!!! I've been thinking about this too - I go on the 8 or 1 threads, and 5 people are posting. I go on the 5 or 4 threads, and there are a billion posts. Isn't this because we're withdrawn; spend time alone, and in the case of 5 analytical, and in the case of 4 self-reflective??



emerald sea said:


> also - i do not accept ideas about the supposed "rarity" of certain enneatypes. they are all based on very limited statistics. i mean, get real...what proportion of the world's population has actually even been enneagram-tested?
> 
> given the comparative novelty of this personality theory as compared against others (although i am well aware some people trace portions of it back to ancient times), how much of the world's population even is _aware_ that enneagram theory _exists_?
> 
> the answer to both questions is: a very, very, very small fraction...so small that it is a tiny subset of the world population, not at all a microcosm of people at large. so i struggle to find it even remotely scientific to extrapolate anything about the distribution of enneatypes among the world population, on the basis of such a tiny, non-representative population sample that has been accurately enneagram-tested...
> 
> until enneagram theory becomes widely known and widely applied in many nations, to the degree that genuinely world-representative population samples can be recruited for ennea-testing, all statistics generated regarding the rarity or commonness of certain types are not worthy of any trust...in my opinion.
> 
> and...
> 
> with our focus on authenticity to self, and the true self, it makes perfect sense for Fours and Four-fixers to aggregate on sites that assist in discovery of self and promote acceptance of the true self...such as personality forums. so if Four is what enneagram theory defines it to be, and personality-typing sites exist to help people discover themselves, it only makes logical sense that Fours would be drawn to such sites in large numbers. so anyone who understands Fours and such sites would _expect_ to see a LOT of Fours on such sites. i find it difficult to understand why people question this, as if it somehow should _not_ be this way...?!?!
> 
> /incredulosity and logical 'reality-check'


----------



## emerald sea

Cherubic Rogue said:


> so true!!! I've been thinking about this too - I go on the 8 or 1 threads, and 5 people are posting. I go on the 5 or 4 threads, and there are a billion posts. Isn't this because we're withdrawn; spend time alone, and in the case of 5 analytical, and in the case of 4 self-reflective??


i figure that introverted types are probably more likely to spend more time on the internet, and - according to one enneagram expert i read - 5w4s especially have a tendency towards fascination with enneagram theory...so, for those reasons, one could expect a lot of 5s to be here.


----------



## Animal

emerald sea said:


> i figure that introverted types are probably more likely to spend more time on the internet, and - according to one enneagram expert i read - 5w4s especially have a tendency towards fascination with enneagram theory...so, for those reasons, one could expect a lot of 5s to be here.


Interesting! I'm a 5w4 and you're right, there are a lot of them on the forum but I haven't met many IRL. Hmm.. how could I, if I'm usually alone on my home planet and they are as well? O


----------



## madhatter

bearotter said:


> As clarification, I do intend to separate them very clearly, because in fact, one thing that led me to enneagram in the first place was that certain things that mistype the MBTI have to do more with enneagram.
> 
> What I plan on taking from MBTI is that there are lots of ways to mistype, and that I should be very aware of stereotypes. That's why I wanted to figure out what "ultimately" determines your enneagram type, somewhat analogous to how cognitive function analysis is the ultimate test for MBTI, as opposed to any specific questionnaire's answers.


Yes, I have noticed that the differences between people who share a MBTI type often are because of differences in Enneagram. I'm ISTP 5w6 and there's a noticeable difference between me and an ISTP 8 or 6. 




> Definitely. Right now, I'm guessing it's type 5. I have read around about 9, 8, 5, 4, 1, 2 mainly, and I know a few basics about the others, but these are the ones that seem to pertain most to me. I've heard about the 5 going to 8 when gaining confidence, in fact in a thread by LeaT, one of the posters who helped me understand MBTI better.
> 
> The way I determined my enneagram 5 was a combination of it being suggested to me, it being what I tested when I was young, and personal reflection reading about what other types. I considered type 4, given that individualistic personality/behaviors are very typical of me, but these seem not to define me, and rather are my resort when I'm unable to deal with anxieties and paranoia by just knowing more than my adversaries (which could be people, or more abstract than that). I tested 4w5 on my first round ever, but I think 5w4 in retrospect fits me better, as I found a lot of the things that lead to mistyping as 4w5 applied to me (for one thing, I read 4w5's approach to emotions that are negative to them is a lot more self-indulgent ...sure I self-indulge at times, but generally it's in order to understand myself better and position myself so that more traditional 5w4 means of dealing with anxieties then succeed).
> 
> So effectively, 5 being my core type was based on indentifying with a fairly extreme tendency to fear helplessness, and overcome it with knowledge, logic, and theoretical foundation.


Sounds like you're on the right track! You're going by motivations rather than behaviors, which is perfect. 



> I read about 4w3 vs 4w5 in one thread with a link that was supposed to be good, and I think in that case, I genuinely feel 4w5 might fit me better. But I'm still unsure how enneagram works, and I hope you'll guide me a little on this one.


Now, there's a couple options here. First, 4w5 could really be your fix. I'd advise you to keep researching, and reading more links on it, unless you are sure, then in that case, forget it.  Another possibility for you relating to 4w5 could be the fact that you're already 5w4...they are very similar types, as you can imagine 



> What is a "fix" in relation to the tritypes? I think googling "fix" brought me some result about how it deals with the emotions that plunder a given core type. I'm not sure how that relates to the rest of enneagram theory.


There are several different theories about it, but I'm going to teach my own. Okay, you have your core type, and your core fixation on one center in the Enneagram. For you, that would be type 5 and the Thinking center. But the tritype theory works off the assumption that you can a secondary connection to the other two centers...that's where your other two "fixes" come in...they are secondary fixations, that essentially support your core type, what I like to think of as subtypes of the core, rather than independent types that can stand on their own. So they will not have the same intensity as when they are core fixations. The core type is still, I believe, the most important part of self-discovery and growth.

I also think that the secondary fixes either reinforce a quality already inherent in the core type, or bring a quality to the core type that may not necessarily come naturally to it otherwise. I use the triads for this. On top of the three centers (feeling [2, 3, 4], thinking [5, 6, 7], anger [8, 9, 1]), there are three other types of divisions of triads: The Social Styles, the Harmonic Styles, and The Object Relations. 

I'll use my tritype as an illustration. I'm 583. 8 and 3 both belong to the "assertive triad". This works counter my natural tendencies as a 5 to avoid and withdraw from the world, but since 8 and 3 also are types that avoid feelings of weakness and vulnerabilities, it increases 5's natural tendencies in that respect as well. Both 5 and 3 belong to the competency triad...this doubles my desire for mastery...I'm very competitive, and I want to be the best. But while 5s may not necessarily care about publicizing that fact, having the 3-fix makes me want to "appear" the best as well as "be" the best. 5 and 8 both belong to the rejection triad, which doubles 5's natural tendency of feeling rejected by the world and to reject their own feelings and needs. 

I can talk more about this, but I don't want to dump too much on you. Read the links...I love that website. There is also some good sources around the forum about triads as well. 




> The reason I suspected 8 is that it seems to fit my tendencies much better than 9. I could see myself testing 8w9. I almost considered type 8 as my core, due to the association with aggression, perception of conflict to the extreme within various aspects of the world. But it doesn't fit my behaviors as well as type 5. Like you said, type 5 and 8 can share some things. But somehow, knowing myself, I feel that 8 should be in there somewhere.
> 
> If I had to give my best bet right now, after doing some reading on the tritypes, the instinctual variants, and the cores and fixes, I'd guess I'm a 5w4, 548.
> 
> What would help you help me clarify my type?


I'm 8w9 as well...but I have long struggled in deciding between 8w9 and 9w8. They like 5w4 and 4w5 are very similar types. 

What would help here for you is to explain to me how you react to conflict? That will help to clarify your gut-fix. 



bearotter said:


> This fits me with 5 going to 8, but I should comment, I think 8 displays itself in a way quite independently in my personality. That's certainly something we can talk more about, so you might help me ensure I'm not misinterpretting what a number appearing in the tritype means.
> 
> What I gather is that 5, 4, 8 are all quite deeply rooted in me, and almost all of the other of the 9 seem to appear in conjunction with one of these, depending on natural tendencies of these types in phases of healthiness and stress. For instance, a type 8 displaying type 2 tendencies in phases of growth would be something I really connect well with. I can think of people who deserve a 2 more in their types than I do, whereas my tendency to type 2 if at all seems to be indulging in something that makes a lot of sense when dealing in a *healthy* way with the realizations and emotions experienced by a type 8 nature deep down.


Okay, there are two modes of thought about secondary fixes being able to integrate/disintegrate like core types. There are those that believe that the fixes *can* integrate. I'm in the other camp, and believe that they cannot. The more you get into the Enneagram, the more you will decide which way you believe. So take my words as a disclaimer of my bias, and don't let me sway you either way.  How much and in what way do you relate to type 2? Since I don't believe that 8 as your gut-fix could integrate, I find you're relating to type 2 significant. 



bearotter said:


> OK, so what I know about 1: well, they are the "perfectionists/reformers," and their image as such as important to them, working very hard is important to them, and they direct their energies to righting the wrongs in various senses of a system not working. They deeply fear losing their integrity, losing their image. They may bottle up their emotions, not wanting to be seen as weak when exploding.
> 
> I should say, I don't fear either of the things they seem to fear. I am under the impression that imperfection is something to be embraced, and showing powerful emotions is no weakness. I simply don't care if it's acceptable or not, or if it bothers others or not. If it's not strategic, I won't do it though. But if all it will do is wreck my image in front of people I don't need to overcome in any way later on, I don't mind what their impression is.
> 
> As for 8: they see conflict as inherent to life, and thus feel the need to be strong and respected. Extremely sensitive to power issues, and the tendency to want more and more control over the situation, and the need to overpower is viewed as central. This sounds a bit like enneagram 5, except the way they deal with it is particular to them, it seems.
> 
> 9: Feel the need to exist in harmony with others, and will tend towards appreciating what it takes to maintain that, including various instances such as feeling included, etc. They have issues with inaction. I could easily see why this might correlate with being an INFJ, but that's one reason I wanted to bring it up -- I don't think it's the best enneagram fit for my third letter, assuming I have the first two right. I think my cognitive process of Fe makes sense, despite lots of tests saying otherwise, because at the core I'm very sensitive to people, and naturally drawn to them, but none of the descriptions of striving for harmony as my primary ideal really fit me. What is true is that I'd rather conflict not exist, but since I see it as so inherent, I feel that I favor the type 8 approach to dealing with it, hence why I suspected the 8w9 synergy.


I'm with you about type 1. 

5 and 8 actually share a lot of traits, especially since they are connected by integration/disintegration line. Both will be concerned with power. If 8 is your gut-fix, your desire for autonomy and power over yourself will be amplified. 

The descriptions of striving for harmony never really fit me either. That's one of the reasons why I'm picking 8w9 over 9w8. Although 9w8 will not be afraid to enter into conflict, if it means ending the conflict and returning everything to its "natural" peace.


----------



## madhatter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> Thank you so much for all your help!


You're very welcome!



> Let me put it this way: my relationship with identity is unique. Do I sound like a 4 yet? haha.. It's very tempting to say "check out my website, you'll see what I mean" because the whole thing is so abstract that it's hard to put into words, and there's a whole fairy-tale; a personal mythology if you will. But I will attempt to sum it up.
> 
> I have three alter-egos. I don't "act" - they are all aspects of me, which are within me all the time, but are 'dressed up' and 'exaggerated' in videos or photos. The songs on my first album tell my 'mythological' allegorical tale and the album artwork portrays my male & female alter ego playing out their romance and conflicts.
> 
> Additionally I weave this into other aspects of my life. These three egos/alter-egos are all on facebook. None are fake, or more real than another. Many people post on facebook about their projects and interests, politics, and deep personal thoughts. I divide this... one is my 'sweet childlike self' who posts about inspiring things like cute animals, upcoming shows (mine or other shows), beautiful landscapes. Another, my male alter-ego, posts the dark side of my creative thoughts , in the form of poetry or darker music or morbid videos etc. The third posts about politics and debates in a brash, straight-forward manner. This model allows me to express myself *more* because each aspect of me is nourished.
> 
> My friends know who the egos/alter-egos are; I don't pretend it's not me; though the pictures of each look so different that it's hard to tell if you don't know (and the male really looks like a male though I look very feminine normally). Having been 'friends' with all three on facebook, people report that they forget they're all the same person, and they feel like they're talking to a completely different person. It's not that I have 'multiple personality disorder' or I 'change my personality to fit the situation' ..... those are all *real* constant aspects of me that evolve in different ways. It's a model of self-expression; it's "living life as art."
> 
> I love wearing costumes to express ideas & feelings in photos, video, or stage; but IRL, I really don't care about image. I have the kind of hometown where everyone runs into everyone, and gossips; so every appearance is a public appearance.. but I'll go out in pajamas, jeans, costumes if I'm in the middle of a shoot, gym clothes; whatever. I never wear makeup or high heels at all outside of performance. So I don't care what people think of "me" or how "I" come off to others, but I am very enchanted by the art of personal expression, and in that context, I really *feel* the impact of each color choice, jewelry piece, body motion.
> 
> Do you see why I'm having trouble with my image-fix? To me "image" is almost a joke - I challenge the notion of image, and portray that we can choose our own image without being dishonest. Also, image is a fun game to me. Nothing is more fun than dressing up as a *CONVINCING* man, who is truly lodged deep in my soul and hardly ever gets to come out!! :d
> 
> Edit: I want to add that this is "authentic" to me. Truly, I have these different 'sides' of myself and I am expressing them, being very faithful to my inner workings. I *do not* change my identity to fit a situation, or merge with another. I'm not charming. This post is too long. that is not charming.  I'm nothing less than honest, but the very idea of 'identity' has been toyed with thoroughly in my music, photos, & videos; and creativity is the center of my life & work.


Okay, what you describe right here strikes me as very 4w3! The outward expression and performing and presentational style is what is pointing me to w3. I'm 99% sold on the idea of 4w3 for you. 

It's very fascinating to me!

As 3w4-fix, I'm more uncomfortable with changing one's image for a given situation, and very concerned with honesty and straight-forwardness. So I applaud you. 



> Thank you! I read all of them.. those are great links. I've been into the enneagram for years (I must have forgotten the shame correlation) and I sort of "get" what makes each type tick to a degree, though I need to refresh my memory sometimes.
> 
> If it helps, here are my scores on the 144 question enneagram test which I re-took last week, in descending order:
> Type 5: 28
> Type 4: 22
> Type 8: 21
> Type 1: 19
> Type 3: 14
> Type 9: 13
> Type 6: 13
> Type 7: 7
> Type 2: 6
> 
> 
> May I ask what are your thoughts on your own gut fix? I'd love to hear what is troubling for you....
> 
> I think what is giving me trouble is that I don't understand the whole tritype theory at a conceptual level. I don't understand how the other 2 fixes pan out as opposed to the core type. I don't have a 4 core but I have some aspects of 4 obviously, in my strong 4 wing. My 8 fix is obvious - both 5s and 8s and other types have asked me, "are you sure you're not an 8?" It's quite strong; and yes it could be integration but it seems to be more ever-present.


I'll write more about my never-ending saga of my gut-fix. But I have to run right now, and I wanted to answer you back, and not leave you hanging! So next time I log on, I will give it my full attention!


----------



## bearotter

Well, as I understood over time with some pointers, ISTP can look pretty similar to INFJ, so we may have some things in common!

Ok, let us talk about 4w5 a bit, since as a potential 584 or 548 or whatever, I might be similar yet different from you. I have definitely also used achievement to protect myself, and done well at that, but somehow I find that I am much more unwilling to do things that help my achievements actually show off. I dislike competing, but given extreme cynicism as to how people walk over the perceived weak, I make sure I achieve. The 54 seems to show up because I am generally intensely aware of my very individual emotions, capabilities, etc, and developing, even revelling in my individuality seems a key aspect in the master plan to out-
knowledge all adversaries. I study my feelings closely and try to turn them into assets, despite being afraid of them.

You may not like my bringing it up, but I think any helper tendencies for me come from my INFJ type.  I see the world as brutal and a test of wills, but ultimately see that what affects me is philosophically very similar to what affects others, so I will actively help others if possible, but never compromising myself. 

Conflict: in a single line, my instinct is to destroy it, even if that means initially prolonging it! I will try to outsmart it, but will use all other means I can otherwise. Sometimes people don't listen to logic, so the realm of power over emotions is crucial. I see conflict as egos trying to bash each other, and the only resolution is to bash them all.including my own!


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## bearotter

On 4w3 vs 4w5: I am too not at peace with achieving to advertise. I achieve to know I have the power to, and may not ever mention my achievements to many who would likely be impressed. I achieve and then try to focus on what it is about me that managed it. But I still could be 4w3  who knows. I am stuck in a loop of gaining knowledge to be armed, then developing my individuality and understanding it so I can feed back into the 5 machine to develop best results.

I am much too individually obsessed to be 3w4 anywhere, but 4w3 is possible. I am obsessed enough with discovering my significance to be 4 fixed, and I do think it feeds my 5.


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## bearotter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> I love wearing costumes to express ideas & feelings in photos, video, or stage; but IRL, I really don't care about image. I have the kind of hometown where everyone runs into everyone, and gossips; so every appearance is a public appearance.. but I'll go out in pajamas, jeans, costumes if I'm in the middle of a shoot, gym clothes; whatever. I never wear makeup or high heels at all outside of performance. So I don't care what people think of "me" or how "I" come off to others, but I am very enchanted by the art of personal expression, and in that context, I really *feel* the impact of each color choice, jewelry piece, body motion.
> 
> Do you see why I'm having trouble with my image-fix? To me "image" is almost a joke


See, I think I can relate to this a lot in a strange way! I think our cognitive processes might be different, but the abstract structure of what you're doing/saying motivation-wise seems to be in me too. _but to a milder degree_. When I achieve, it's primarily to know that I have the power, and out of a similar amusement. It both expresses my individuality and doesn't, in the sense that I understand what about me led to the achievement much more than others who perceive it do, and so the achievement itself is always dissatisfying, but I similarly get an amusement out of "putting on a show" by letting the achievement seem to define me. This seems to be at least a little similar with what you do with performance, yet it has nothing to do with personal expression, and seems much more defensive.

I resent the idea of having to perform/achieve much too much for it to be comfortable to me to do so. 

It's hard. I might have to really consider deep down what my motivations are. I knew achievers and performers growing up, and always felt alienated from them.



> having the 3-fix makes me want to "appear" the best as well as "be" the best.


With me, I just know that I'm not the best. I am exactly what I am. That always, always, always comes back, despite any level of achievement, in a way that seems not to in some that I know. If anything, I might want to appear the best for the sake of protection and power!



Perhaps @madhatter, if you really think the fixes cannot integrate, then it's just my 8w9. I'm definitely interested in the abstract kind of peaceful solution a 9 might be, but at first glance I'd seem to think my 8 does integrate with 2. Could it be that 8 is my core type? As a child, I wasn't so much of a thinker as just tough to reckon with, but I began glorifying knowledge and thinking as a way to protect myself.


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## Animal

You are so awesome! Thank you for reading all this. Also, I loved everything you wrote in your above post as a response to @bearotter. I also appreciate that you differentiated between your theory & the fact that there are 'many theories,' but personally, yours makes sense to me. I only recently found out about "tritype" and I've loved enneagram for years, so the tritype thing was a bit jolting. Your analysis is similar to what I came up with from some reading & intuition, though!!



madhatter said:


> Okay, what you describe right here strikes me as very 4w3! The outward expression and performing and presentational style is what is pointing me to w3. I'm 99% sold on the idea of 4w3 for you.
> 
> It's very fascinating to me!


Thanks! Sorry for the long description.. glad you enjoyed it though  I'm gonna look into this a bit later (reading) and let you know what I think... do you think the 'performing' bug is rooted in the w3?



> As 3w4-fix, I'm more uncomfortable with changing one's image for a given situation, and very concerned with honesty and straight-forwardness. So I applaud you.


hehe thank you. When you say "uncomfortable with"...... what do you mean? Because aren't 3's specifically comfortable with changing the image? Or is it that you're sensitive to this tendency in yourself so you don't like when other people do it?




> I'll write more about my never-ending saga of my gut-fix. But I have to run right now, and I wanted to answer you back, and not leave you hanging! So next time I log on, I will give it my full attention!


Cool... thank you for writing then hehe... can't wait to hear the rest!!!! I might be able to help because I feel like I've got a pretty decent grasp on 8-ness, if nothing else.


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## bearotter

Right now, I read over 4w3 and 4w5, and I seriously think the latter fits me better. I read that sometimes a 4w5 will display 4w3 tendencies, because they want to have all the best of the worlds. 

But the thing is, we're not deciding between these two for me; rather, we're deciding which of these seems to act as a fix to my enneagram 5 core. 

So my question is, since we appear to have found a good example of a 4w3 fix to core 5 above, can either @madhatter or @Cherubic Rogue explain better how that particular fix works?


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## Animal

bearotter said:


> See, I think I can relate to this a lot in a strange way! I think our cognitive processes might be different, but the abstract structure of what you're doing/saying motivation-wise seems to be in me too. _but to a milder degree_. When I achieve, it's primarily to know that I have the power, and out of a similar amusement. It both expresses my individuality and doesn't, in the sense that I understand what about me led to the achievement much more than others who perceive it do, and so the achievement itself is always dissatisfying, but I similarly get an amusement out of "putting on a show" by letting the achievement seem to define me. This seems to be at least a little similar with what you do with performance, yet it has nothing to do with personal expression, and seems much more defensive.
> 
> I resent the idea of having to perform/achieve much too much for it to be comfortable to me to do so.


It's interesting... a few things here. First of all, I don't see "theater'' or putting on a show as an achievement - to me that's just part of my life; it's fun and I don't feel like I "have to" perform. I just *LOVE* it. I've written about my story on a few other posts and I don't want to bore anyone, but the long and short of it is, I was a professional singer aiming for Broadway and then got really sick at age 16 with Chronic Lyme Disease... and because doctors didn't know what I had, etc, and bad decisions were made by doctors, I ended up losing my voice permanently so that now I speak in a whisper. For a while I just wrote stories & did other things but I ended up back on stage years later, singing my songs through my whispery voice with a band behind me. Obviously this was difficult... my (whispery) voice isn't dependable; the parts of my voice I can sing with come and go, and I couldn't depend on my voice to hold up certain songs..... also, technically it's difficult because sound guys in NYC don't care about their job, and they didn't want to take the time to sound-check me etc. Anyway... even that could not keep me off the stage- I just love it so much!!! It's so hard with the whole band, but at this point I'll just play piano & sing by myself if it gets me on the stage; I'll show up at open mics when my voice is "working" if I can't depend on it for scheduling shows. I really really love performing so it doesn't feel like something I "have to" do. Does that make sense? It's like saying "Ugh, now I *have to* cuddle this kitten" hehehee



> It's hard. I might have to really consider deep down what my motivations are. I knew achievers and performers growing up, and always felt alienated from them.


You mean motivations for 'putting on a show?' When you cite performing, what sort of putting on a show do you mean? 




> With me, I just know that I'm not the best. I am exactly what I am. That always, always, always comes back, despite any level of achievement, in a way that seems not to in some that I know. If anything, I might want to appear the best for the sake of protection and power!


Tee hee... I know I'm not the best too... I am not sure if this bothers me though.. I have to think about it. Certainly, I compare my songwriting to Trent Reznor or John Lennon, or my fantasy novel to Dune, and occasionally think, "Why do I bother?" ... but only on a down day; when I want to be pleased with my own work. I don't think I have a need for anyone else to think I'm the best.... I get the most satisfaction when I can inspire someone else to do their own art. I mean of course, I'm not gonna lie and say I don't like it when the audience claps (especially if I was really feeling the song and I feel like I deserve it), but I think the thing that made me feel best in my whole life is when I got a letter from a girl I hardly know, on facebook, saying that my singing through my whispery voice inspired her to get over her fear of singing, and now she is recording her first album. That made me feel *really* good about what I did, even though it wasn't a specific complement to the quality of my work; it was a complement to my spirit, and it made me feel like I was actually giving back to the world which has given so much to me.. I guess it felt more 'authentic' if you will. 

Do you think you'd feel happiest if your work was 'the best?' Or if it really moved someone else? Or..? 

I have my very dark sides & twisted motivations also :0) and most of them, I associate with my 8ness lust & my 5ness 'self protection' robot-mode. But I really can't find what's "wrong" with my approach to identity. I'm sure there's something majorly wrong & dark about it, (maybe that it keeps me in solitude 99% of the time, doing my work? lol)... but I just haven't pinpointed it yet.. that's why it's hard to find what my "fix" is.. the enneagram is about our unhealthy obsessions & fears after all .


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## Animal

Unfortunately I don't know how it works yet as it relates to the tritype, but I bet @madhatter will have theories about it which will be awesome O



bearotter said:


> Right now, I read over 4w3 and 4w5, and I seriously think the latter fits me better. I read that sometimes a 4w5 will display 4w3 tendencies, because they want to have all the best of the worlds.
> 
> But the thing is, we're not deciding between these two for me; rather, we're deciding which of these seems to act as a fix to my enneagram 5 core.
> 
> So my question is, since we appear to have found a good example of a 4w3 fix to core 5 above, can either @_madhatter_ or @_Cherubic Rogue_ explain better how that particular fix works?


----------



## madhatter

Cherubic Rogue said:


> Makes sense. I think I usually notice/criticize tendencies in others that I see in myself. For instance, I don't have that many close friends IRL that have lasted for years and years, but out of the ones I do have, a few of them are 5s! A disproportionate number haha. I realized my relationship with all of them (with one exception) is close, but contentious. Like.. we see flaws in each other and get disgusted by it. Maybe because we see it in ourselves, too.


Haha, yes! I could definitely see this happening to me. But I don't know if I know other 5s. 




> No you're not rambling, it makes sense to me at least!
> 
> I read recently that 8w7 is more likely to feel threatened and initiate a fight, whereas 8w9 is 'always ready' for a fight but doesn't usually initiate. That's what it sounds like to me. Have you ever been in a physical fight? Or if not, what is your thought process on the matter? Have you avoided this, or it just hasn't come up, or..?


Oh good! That makes one of us, lol. 

Yes, I have been in a physical fight before. I can relate to the "always ready for a fight", but I don't usually go looking for it or initiating it. When I was in junior high, my brother's best friend would harass and tease me all the time. It got to a point where he would provoke me and I would kick him in the shins. I had the shoes with the thick soles too. My brother complained that I would kick him so hard that he would bleed through his pants. I am still very unapologetic about this. Since he decided not to do his brotherly duty and stick up for me, I took care of myself. Soon after, I graduated to punching, because it left less marks lol.


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## Animal

How funny! I was in a similar fight around the same age, where I kicked someone really hard in the shins. He called my friend a ''******" (my friend was bi & looked goth & was from another school... he also happened to be a model at the time and a musician).... I told the stupid guy if he kept using the word '******' i would beat him up .. he kept using it.. lo and behold, I kicked him in the shins pretty damn hard. After that, I brought my goth friend to the school dance and forced the other guy to dance with him in public. Out of fear, he did; but I think they actually had fun. I hope he learned his lesson!!



madhatter said:


> Haha, yes! I could definitely see this happening to me. But I don't know if I know other 5s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh good! That makes one of us, lol.
> 
> Yes, I have been in a physical fight before. I can relate to the "always ready for a fight", but I don't usually go looking for it or initiating it. When I was in junior high, my brother's best friend would harass and tease me all the time. It got to a point where he would provoke me and I would kick him in the shins. I had the shoes with the thick soles too. My brother complained that I would kick him so hard that he would bleed through his pants. I am still very unapologetic about this. Since he decided not to do his brotherly duty and stick up for me, I took care of myself. Soon after, I graduated to punching, because it left less marks lol.


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## Animal

Persephone said:


> I think I know a 548. He was my high school teacher. Extremely intelligent and insightful, prone to bouts of narcissism and snobbery, and very occasionally explodes in rage. If there's one word to describe him, it's "intense". He has such an authoritative aura, if he contradicts you, you might just shut up.


This is where I run into trouble with the 548 diagnosis. Certainly if a person was describing me in one word, the word "intense" would be a top pick. However, narcissism & snobbery are things I've accused myself of because of being self-critical, but other people usually think I'm "sweet" at least until they get to know me. O Also I don't think I have an authoritative aura at all.

I've read that this is the description of a typical 548 or 584... how do the other 548/584s relate to this? I mean after all the descriptions are short and enneagram deals with inner workings in such a deep way that I can't imagine fixes and manifestations could be covered in a few paragraphs. Nonetheless, apparently people do exist who fit this description...


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## Persephone

Cherubic Rogue said:


> This is where I run into trouble with the 548 diagnosis. Certainly if a person was describing me in one word, the word "intense" would be a top pick. However, narcissism & snobbery are things I've accused myself of because of being self-critical, but other people usually think I'm "sweet" at least until they get to know me. O Also I don't think I have an authoritative aura at all.
> 
> I've read that this is the description of a typical 548 or 584... how do the other 548/584s relate to this? I mean after all the descriptions are short and enneagram deals with inner workings in such a deep way that I can't imagine fixes and manifestations could be covered in a few paragraphs. Nonetheless, apparently people do exist who fit this description...


People like you are rare indeed. I can't actually imagine you, you know? ENFPs are not normally 5s, and Type 5s usually don't have 8 in their tritype. I used to think I did, until I realized that 8 was the direction of integration for me and that's probably where my 8-ish tendencies come from, and that when I look like an 8, I'm always at my best emotionally and physically.

I think my teacher has an authoritative aura because he is an INTJ. Even INTJs without the 8 tritype can seem like they know everything there is to know about the world. My INTP best friend frequently made me justify my facial expressions because it always looks like I have the answer to everything, and was looking at her mockingly. I definitely think tritype descriptions should be better, and I've thought of an idea to create a thread and let various tritypes discuss themselves and how their types work in conjunction, and perhaps gleam something from there.


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## SuperDevastation

There doesn't seem to be much of a description of the 854.


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## Mizmar

emerald sea said:


> also - i do not accept ideas about the supposed "rarity" of certain enneatypes. they are all based on very limited statistics. i mean, get real...what proportion of the world's population has actually even been enneagram-tested?


I agree. Why should any type be any more rare than the next? What is that view based on? If it is based on test results, well, aren't the tests results notoriously inaccurate?

And _if_ it's true that Four and Five are rarer types, then _why_ should that be the case? Are those particular fixes like recessive traits? Or does their supposed rarity symbolically have to do with their location at the bottom of the Enneagram? Does it suggest they have been rejected or dumped away in favor of other types? And if so, then what does Nine's location at the top of the Enneagram symbolize about it? That it is the most common type?



> with our focus on authenticity to self, and the true self, it makes perfect sense for Fours and Four-fixers to aggregate on sites that assist in discovery of self and promote acceptance of the true self...such as personality forums. so if Four is what enneagram theory defines it to be, and personality-typing sites exist to help people discover themselves, it only makes logical sense that Fours would be drawn to such sites in large numbers. so anyone who understands Fours and such sites would _expect_ to see a LOT of Fours on such sites. i find it difficult to understand why people question this, as if it somehow should _not_ be this way...?!?!


That sounds perfectly logical to me.

And since someone mentioned weirdness (one of my favorite words) I have to ask, in what way are 4w5 and 5w4 'weird'? Michael Jackson could out-weird any man alive (or dead) and he seems universally typed as a 4_w3_. If anything, I would think Fives and Five-wingers would be more inclined to hoard their 'weirdness' to themselves, exploring it in their own private time rather than sharing it openly with the world the way flashier types might.


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## SilentScream

I honestly don't know why anyone would *want* or *choose* to be a 458 ... It's really not the most functional type. 

Too much fantasy, too much questioning, too little action .. withdrawn .. prone to extended periods of seclusion ... becoming reclusive and blaming self for the first thing that goes wrong .. 

With the 4 leading .. moody and not very capable of action .. So easy to hate oneself but not want to be hated by others ... coming up with explanation after explanation that isn't always based on reality .. prone to severe temper tantrums and reacting poorly based on moods. 

Making others and the self miserable during down time .. pushing people away to escape into a world of fantasy. Being in a perpetual state of existential crisis. Looking around for acceptance but not quite finding it. Nightmares. Denial of what's going on around ... going into hermit mode for extended periods and waking up to realize that while said person was in the fantasy state the world has moved on which only further adds to the constant negative feelings of envy of others and how well they're doing. 

Trying to make sense of the world but only being able to do so on isolated terms. Talking to people about ideas only to have them misunderstood and rejected which again adds to self-dislike and hate. Especially if there is a 6 wing to the 5. Adds not only anxiety but cynicism. Taking on image after image so as to become functional or portray an image of being functional especially if the wing is 3 attached to the 4. Envying other's for all they have that you can't have. Therefore constantly pouring yourself into book after book after book to try to come to some logical explanation for why you are the way you are. Constantly feeling alone in a crowd. 

Seeing perspectives not every wants to see because of the detachment from the world that others seem to easily relate to. 

Why would anyone want to be a 458? It doesn't sound so perfect when unhealthy. In fact, it doesn't sound so great when healthy either.


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## kaleidoscope

@_Tortured_

I think you're overestimating the influence of the tritype, when really it's the core that has most impact. The other fixes are also under the influence of the core, like @_madhatter_ said in the first pages. 

I'm a 478 - which is pretty close to 458 because of the 7's integration to 5, and I don't find it _that_ hard to be. *shrug* It has its blindspots and shortcomings, but so does every tritype. No type or tritype is harder to be than others.

Plus, I don't think anyone specifically wants or _chooses _to be a certain tritype. They just are.


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## SilentScream

kaleidoscope said:


> I'm a 478 - which is pretty close to 458 because of the 7's integration to 5, and I don't find it _that_ hard to be.


I know. 478's and 458's are different. The 7 brings about more optimism and functionality in the real world which is appreciable. 

There are other reasons as well including PTSD, chronic pain and a disability that make my experience as a 458 different from other 458's. 

Lastly, of course all types have a relatively equal amount of strengths and weaknesses but that doesn't support the fact that all types are equally functional. It's like saying that a piano player should be able to play a violin because he's a musician. 

Certain types have an easier time in the external world .. while others have a harder time because certain strengths and weaknesses make them better equipped .. and yes, I believe that some of it _is _inherent .. I also believe that people can grow to _become _functional.


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## kaleidoscope

Tortured said:


> I know. 478's and 458's are different. The 7 brings about more optimism and functionality in the real world which is appreciable.


I know quite a few 5s who don't seem to be having any major troubles in the real world.. unless unhealthy. Unhealthy 7s who end up being addicted or turning into extreme hedonists to run away from their problems aren't exactly the easiest type to be either. Healthiness plays a big part in these matters.



> Lastly, of course all types have a relatively equal amount of strengths and weaknesses but that doesn't support the fact that all types are equally functional. It's like saying that a piano player should be able to play a violin because he's a musician. Certain types have an easier time with the external world .. while others have a harder time.


Functionality doesn't have anything to do with what type you are, rather how healthy you are as an individual. I think your assumption is unfair, that just because you're a 458 you have it harder than say, a 369. Besides, you thought you were many other, completely different tritypes before you settled for this one, so I don't think it's reasonable to attribute your difficulties to a specific tritype. 

I know a friend who's a 162 (triple superego) and I sometimes wonder if he doesn't have a harder time than me because of this inner critic of his that keeps bashing him every day. Also, @_adverseaffects_ is a 458 and (though she retired now) and I believe she's not very.. tortured.


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## Persephone

kaleidoscope said:


> Functionality doesn't have anything to do with what type you are, rather how healthy you are as an individual. I think your assumption is unfair, that just because you're a 458 you have it harder than say, a 369. Besides, you thought you were many other, completely different tritypes before you settled for this one, so I don't think it's reasonable to attribute your difficulties to a specific tritype.


You don't think some types are more misunderstood than others? Being socially dysfunctional can be highly distressing, and our society, especially in the high school, can slander Type 5s as "geeks" or "nerds". Read any ethnography on American high schools and that will soon become apparent. Or, if you like a different system, try talking to INTJs. Many of them have horror stories for you, including myself, because people just couldn't accept us.


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## SilentScream

kaleidoscope said:


> Also, @_adverseaffects_ is a 458 and (though she retired now) and I believe she's not very.. tortured.


Yeah .. because every person of the same tritype is supposed to be a carbon copy of one another


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## kaleidoscope

Persephone said:


> You don't think some types are more misunderstood than others? Being socially dysfunctional can be highly distressing, and our society, especially in the high school, can slander Type 5s as "geeks" or "nerds". Read any ethnography on American high schools and that will soon become apparent. Or, if you like a different system, try talking to INTJs. Many of them have horror stories for you, including myself, because people just couldn't accept us.


I admit I had a harder time be accepted and to feel like I belonged yes. But I wouldn't go as far as generalizing and saying some types have it easier than us just because we're part of the Rare Types Triad. A 4 isn't more likely to be abused than a 6. 

Please, this assumption is exactly what gives the rare enneagram types - and rare MBTI types like INTJ's - the luxury to parade around with the label "MISUNDERSTOOD". You're not going to be more bullied because you're an INTJ, I'm sorry.


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## kaleidoscope

Tortured said:


> Yeah .. because every person of the same tritype is supposed to be a carbon copy of one another


Then why attribute your difficulties to your tritype? You certainly didn't have the same attitude when you self-typed as a 6, or a 3, or a 9.


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## Persephone

kaleidoscope said:


> I admit I had a harder time as a 4 to be accepted and to feel like I belonged yes. But I wouldn't go as far as generalizing and saying some types have it easier than us. A 4 isn't more likely to be abused than a 6. Please, this assumption is exactly what gives the "rare" types like 4s, 5s and 8s - and of rare MBTI types like INTJ's the luxury to parade around with the label "MISUNDERSTOOD". You're not going to be more bullied because you're an INTJ, no.


-facepalm- _Seriously_? Have you read _anything_ about social psychology? There _is_ validity to the view that rare types are going to be easy targets, because kids, especially teenagers, in their most formative years (ie. seventh grade), need to establish their own identities and to do so, establish cliques that emphasize conformity. Outliers are not going to be conformists because _by definition_ they do not conform to the norm. The outlier is naturally ostracized in most cases- just ask refugee or minority children in public schools. One Jamaican girl had her _accent_ demonized, so it's not just about personality type, but rarities of any kind.

I admit I had an easier time because kids in my school all came from very nice, egalitarian upbringings and the exclusion was not overt, but there is definitely exclusion. My own goddamn mother made a hobby out of shaming me, when I was young, for being "unusual", or in her own words, "queer". She couldn't understand why I had such a "mental problem", why I wasn't bubbly and pink like all girls, etc. etc. She admitted herself what she did was wrong and she had only just begun to understand me.


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## kaleidoscope

Persephone said:


> -facepalm- _Seriously_? Have you read _anything_ about social psychology? There _is_ validity to the view that rare types are going to be easy targets, because kids, especially teenagers, in their most formative years (ie. seventh grade), need to establish their own identities and to do so, establish cliques that emphasize conformity. Outliers are not going to be conformists because _by definition_ they do not conform to the norm. The outlier is naturally ostracized in most cases- just ask refugee or minority children in public schools. I admit I had an easier time because kids in my school all came from very nice, egalitarian upbringings and the exclusion was not overt, but there is definitely exclusion.


Go ahead and attribute your problems to your type. I've known 2s, 3s, 9s, 7s who had the worst childhoods in the world. Just because you're a 5 doesn't automatically equip you with a lifetime of doom, and rejection. Yes, socially awkward people *can* have more problems growing up. I'm not denying that. ANY type can be socially awkward though. I have a friend who's a 3, who was sexually, physically and emotionally abused throughout all of her childhood. What does that say about your precious theory?


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## SilentScream

kaleidoscope said:


> Then why attribute your difficulties to your tritype? You certainly didn't have the same attitude when you self-typed as a 6, or a 3, or a 9.


Why shouldn't I? It's my wish how I explain it to myself so I can grow and move on.


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## Persephone

kaleidoscope said:


> Go ahead and attribute your problems to your type. I've known 2s, 3s, 9s and even 7s who had the worst childhoods in the world. Just because you're a 5 doesn't automatically equip you with a lifetime of doom, and rejection. Yes, socially awkward people *can* have more problems growing up, socially. I'm not denying that. ANY type can be socially awkward though. I have a friend who's a 3, who was sexually, physically and emotionally abused throughout all of her childhood. What does that say about your precious theory?


"My precious theory"? I'm not even going to start on that. See here. I'm not talking about being _socially awkward_. Who said anything about that? I'm talking about the effects of being _nonconformist_, and _different_, and its negative effects on how people treat you, especially in the schoolyard. Few people say I'm socially awkward, actually, but that doesn't mean people won't give me hell for not being "normal".

Being Type 5 doesn't entail _anything_ beyond being Type 5. I'm talking about the _average_ here, and nothing you say will sell me the idea that being _different_ does not entail that you might have a harder time socially on average. It's futile to use your anecdotes to say anything about the average, unless, of course, they were representative of the average.

I happened to have gone to a school that valued intellectualism so I didn't have as great a problem, but were I attending most schools in the US, I would most definitely have a hellish time, based on some of the things I've read in ethnographies. Thankfully, all I had to deal with were some name-calling and exclusion from the popular clique. They're so nice, they wouldn't even admit they were exclusive.

I don't think I've attributed my "problems" to my type at all so I don't even know where you got your basis for your first sentence. If I ever did, I didn't in this thread.


----------



## emerald sea

has empathy left the building?

oh, yeah, that's right - it is off today.


----------



## kaleidoscope

Persphone said:


> Being Type 5 doesn't entail _anything beyond being Type 5. _


That's all I was saying.


----------



## Animal

To be completely honest, I had thoughts of suicide during the period I described above, when I was SUPER successful. At 14, when I was starring in shows, earning money as a musician, etc, I wanted to die because my male friend only liked me as a friend, and because I was being rejected from certain "ingenue" roles for not being pretty enough, and because I hated the way I looked... or at least, the fact that my looks seemed to be preventing me from getting what I want boy wise and career wise. Oddly enough, after I got sick, my lust for life was much stronger because I thought I was going to die at 16, and I was so happy to be alive. Now I'm so excited when I kneel & stand quickly; I was told I might not bend my knees with ease ever again. I'm so happy when I can do anything dexterously (though I'm far from graceful LOL)... and it seems my looks have not given my any issue since my confidence surged. It was only the trauma, and struggling to survive, that forced me *away* from the types of thoughts you're describing, which were inherent in my character & personality. I have always had creative outlets for those thoughts & feelings (and for a while when my voice, my main outlet, was taken away, I did use sex as that outlet, but also found other creative outlets like photography).... but that wasn't enough to keep me from wanting to die when I was a teen. 



Fallen Nocturne said:


> I feel really guilty now because I haven't really had anything I'd consider significant happen in my life, I just collapse into a black hole of angst and self-hatred over insignificant things like not beating a bonus boss on Final Fantasy 12 or if I didn't know something virtually everyone else seems to understand. The only legitimate thing I really have going is the way I isolate myself from people and find it difficult to discuss my feelings. Of course, the problem just increases almost exponentially, because I'm usually just incapable of discussing it. I almost assume other people aren't interested in my latest lapse into melancholy, which would understandable given what I can get myself down for.


----------



## SilentScream

@Cherubic Rogue --- Amazing .. simply amazing  

When I was recovering from my accident [broken back .. bed-ridden for 8 weeks], I managed to set up my keyboard in such a way that I could still continue to compose and record. I would have someone help me into a sitting position and I would play and record. 

I created a sequence of 10 instrumentals and called them all "A walk in paradise". 

I knew I would have trouble walking because my left knee was badly busted, so the idea of simply walking had become a sort of fantasy .. I put that into my music. All 10 tunes have a similar sound and similar feel to them ... and they were all composed improv-style. Of course, I couldn't stay up in a sitting position for long, so I had to create them as quickly as I could. 

Then I used to enter a feeling state .. like I would put myself in different situations. I would imagine myself strolling around, walking .. sometimes roller-blading and then put it to music. What resulted was a completely different sound from what I had created previously. It was crazy just how different those compositions were. It was like .. I wasn't the one who created them .. I felt like it was someone else who did so. 

At the same time, my "Jawz" persona is just that .. he's an alter-ego .. he's the lovable all-american guy who isn't tortured .. who doesn't hate himself .. who's a relatively successful average Joe .. the ideal buddy you want by your side. 

You saw one of the posts in this very thread of me being requested to go back to being that Jawz. Everyone seems to want to see that Jawz .. that person .. but he's not really me .. the real me is tortured .. the real me screams silently into the night. 

It's because .... Jawz is charming and eloquent and he makes other people feel good about themselves .. 

Sometimes I really do feel like I'm the Jawz that everyone would like me to be .. but it's so hard to maintain him. 

Only @Etherea has been able to see me as I am. She was the one who first saw that I was different from ENFJ's .. then made me re-consider the 3. She continues to assert that I'm a 5w4 as opposed to a 5w6 .. but I continue to latch on to some aspects of the 6 .. maybe because I like them so much? I'm not sure. I could very well be a 4w3, 8w9, 5w4 ... but for now .. I'm leaving it at 5w6


----------



## Animal

Tortured said:


> @_Cherubic Rogue_ --- I do believe that we've managed to see how differently 584 and 485 play. I haven't been able to relate to anyone's posts about the 8's manifestations quite as well as I do yours.
> 
> I think there is some truth to the statement that the 8 in the 458 tritype is a "gentle" 8 and we've seen that in all three of us.
> 
> I'm also noticing a difference in core motivations as both of you are core 5's. I relate a great deal to the detachment and creations of fantasies ... I've always had a richer imaginary life as well than a real life. There have been many times I've woken up from dreams confused between reality and the dream. In fact, sometimes I wake up from the dream with a regret that it's over and now I have to live in the real world .. because the dream was so much better. That's when I know the 5 is manifesting itself .. but it comes right at the end.


I relate to this.... immensely. I suppose that is a 5ism, huh?? Never thought of it that way but it's true! I once had an epic dream that I typed out when I woke up - all action - about 15 pages long in type!! LOL. But I wake up from all sorts of dreams crying, shaking, happy, lusty, whatever. The state I wake up in often affects my day. This is why, when I'm in a writing-fantasy phase instead of a music-phase, I prefer waking up at 3am and going to bed at 9pm... I like writing with the sunrise, in a half-dream-like state, right when I wake up from this other-world. But sometimes it bites me in the ass because the dream is so emotionally intense that I can't even be productive with writing. Sometimes I have to make great effort not to confuse my dream-manifestation of people in my life with the real person....



> My process usually goes: Self-hate and anger at self ... denial of my role and expression of anger at others because I feel challenged .. and finally when everything has failed, I go looking for the truth. If only 5 had been placed above the 8 in my case, perhaps I would've been less inclined to sabotage relationships.


ROTFL I don't know about that... 5s excel at sabotaging relationships O
I would attest that the 8 lust coming first might end up bringing that anger/ rage to the forefront (that certainly does it for me), but also, in both cases, it would bring us closer to our lust-obsession and lust for worldly experience, touching another person, thinking with our hands.. which would actually motivate us to invest MORE of our energy in a relationship. 5s have the issue of not being willing to give up their precious time on their home planet for the sake of a relationship. Ah.. I wish I did not relate to that particular 5ism. 



> Also, as a core 4, relationships and image are definitely more important to me ... I like to keep them stable .. but on my own terms. I don't like to be pushed into doing what I don't want to do .. when pushed, I resist and fight. When challenged, I become blunt and hostile. But given time and distance .. I'm able to detach from my emotions and start seeing things objectively again.


Hehe 5s are usually the opposite - they detach in the moment and have 'delayed emotional reactions.' Honestly.. I go both ways on this. I relate to what you wrote here but sometimes I do find myself being rational in the moment and emoting in reflection.


----------



## Animal

That is amazing about the music.... obviously, I can relate to this immensely :,)

There's something.. ahrgh, I feel like such a '458/584/845 etc' saying this, but there is something very beautiful, almost enchanting, about suffering. 

I have this intense relationship with suffering & trauma & crisis. In a crisis, I absolutely excel at thinking on my feet, making all the right decisions when I don't have time to think, following my gut, doing what needs to be done at the scene of danger. I think it's the same with suffering. When I'm going through something intensely emotionally draining or trying, some of the defenses that kick in are actually some of the most inspiring, cathartic, beautiful moments of my life.



Tortured said:


> @_Cherubic Rogue_ --- Amazing .. simply amazing
> 
> When I was recovering from my accident [broken back .. bed-ridden for 8 weeks], I managed to set up my keyboard in such a way that I could still continue to compose and record. I would have someone help me into a sitting position and I would play and record.
> 
> I created a sequence of 10 instrumentals and called them all "A walk in paradise".
> 
> I knew I would have trouble walking because my left knee was badly busted, so the idea of simply walking had become a sort of fantasy .. I put that into my music. All 10 tunes have a similar sound and similar feel to them ... and they were all composed improv-style. Of course, I couldn't stay up in a sitting position for long, so I had to create them as quickly as I could.
> 
> Then I used to enter a feeling state .. like I would put myself in different situations. I would imagine myself strolling around, walking .. sometimes roller-blading and then put it to music. What resulted was a completely different sound from what I had created previously. It was crazy just how different those compositions were. It was like .. I wasn't the one who created them .. I felt like it was someone else who did so.
> 
> At the same time, my "Jawz" persona is just that .. he's an alter-ego .. he's the lovable all-american guy who isn't tortured .. who doesn't hate himself .. who's a relatively successful average Joe .. the ideal buddy you want by your side.
> 
> You saw one of the posts in this very thread of me being requested to go back to being that Jawz. Everyone seems to want to see that Jawz .. that person .. but he's not really me .. the real me is tortured .. the real me screams silently into the night.
> 
> It's because .... Jawz is charming and eloquent and he makes other people feel good about themselves ..
> 
> Sometimes I really do feel like I'm the Jawz that everyone would like me to be .. but it's so hard to maintain him.
> 
> Only @_Etherea_ has been able to see me as I am. She was the one who first saw that I was different from ENFJ's .. then made me re-consider the 3. She continues to assert that I'm a 5w4 as opposed to a 5w6 .. but I continue to latch on to some aspects of the 6 .. maybe because I like them so much? I'm not sure. I could very well be a 4w3, 8w9, 5w4 ... but for now .. I'm leaving it at 5w6


----------



## SilentScream

Cherubic Rogue said:


> There's something.. ahrgh, I feel like such a '458/584/845 etc' saying this, but there is something very beautiful, almost enchanting, about suffering.


There ... that sums up the tritype quite nicely  

You have no idea how many times I've said this .. over and over and over again .. all of my life. 

I love my suffering as much as I hate it .. but I accept that even though suffering in itself is something deeply romantic, I don't always need to suffer because I am as much a cause of my suffering as a victim .. therefore I continue to fight to exert control over myself .. not always succeeding .. but hoping .. longing .. believing that there is an end to the suffering .. and yet .. fearing that if indeed the suffering does end .. I will long for it to return just as I longed for it end.


----------



## Animal

@_Tortured_ .. I forgot to respond to the segment of that quote regarding Jawz.

Each of my alter-egos has their own website and facebook. Two are female and one is male, though the 'practical' personality is kind of androgynous.. she wears hot sexy outfits because she happens to be female, but she's 'practical' even in that sense... if it's time to dominate in a male-like manner, she will do it. There's no gender-identification really. Her name is also androgynous. The other two are very much 'male' and 'female' and although this doesn't necessarily apply to the culturally accepted perceptions of each gender, they apply to my understanding of how gender manifests through my personality.

The alter-egos developed naturally, like yours I think. It wasn't like I sat there one day and said "Hmm, I need a couple of alter egos." They all developed over long periods of time and were very true to my core or some major part of me.

I think, since I bring them out on my websites, videos and music, and on facebook, and have a sense of humor about it (for instance my male says some pretty naughty things to my female friends on facebook, but he is also the best of the three at cheering people up / being empathetic/ being charming).... and because the music came first, I haven't yet been accused of being 'fake' or something like that. But it seems to me that both of these manifestations of your 'self' are equally real, and it is certainly worth acknowledging both of them, even if one only pops up occasionally and can't be harnessed on command. My male only signs into facebook about once every few months, though sometimes he's on there constantly. The 'practical' one likes talking politics and debates mostly during election times, and is otherwise absent. The one that bears my own real name (though, it is worth noting that I changed my last name after the trauma to describe the person I became), is on most of the time & handles chats, real friendships, and also lists when the shows will be and what's on my website etc. Most people think of that as 'me' and report that although they know the others are also me, they FORGET and feel like they're talking to three different people. Part of that is because of the artistic photos of each, but also, NONE of them are fake.... it's just that my intuition tells me whose turn it is to post, given the content of the post.. it's not something I think about. Identity isn't something that even crosses my mind.. it just is; and yet my relationship with it is not your every-day manifestation of inner workings, I suppose.


----------



## Animal

There was a time when I was apathetic, and couldn't feel, after the trauma. I don't ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever want that again. I welcome sadness, anger, pain, heartache, happiness, lust, triumph, egoism, anything... anything that makes me feel... it's more than welcome. It seems now, once again (like when I was young) that I can't possibly shut off my feelings. However, I know that I can, because I did it, for years. I could only access emotion through use of umm, well urr,,, unnatural, self-destructive means. And wow, I am so glad that I had the balls to stop using those unnatural, self-destructive means, and that now I have returned to my natural overly emotional, intense state. Of course from the outside, I was probably most intense during the period when I felt "apathetic" and "cold" inside, because I was so unaware of this intensity that it was just flying around my aura, unharnessed. Ugh, I have chills even thinking about it...

Anyway, what a beautiful thing you wrote here....


Tortured said:


> There ... that sums up the tritype quite nicely
> 
> You have no idea how many times I've said this .. over and over and over again .. all of my life.
> 
> I love my suffering as much as I hate it .. but I accept that even though suffering in itself is something deeply romantic, I don't always need to suffer because I am as much a cause of my suffering as a victim .. therefore I continue to fight to exert control over myself .. not always succeeding .. but hoping .. longing .. believing that there is an end to the suffering .. and yet .. fearing that if indeed the suffering does end .. I will long for it to return just as I longed for it end.


----------



## Animal

@Tortured & @Fallen Nocturne .. It's funny that I can relate to the 485/584 posts so much more than the 'just plain old 5' threads. I relate to those threads a bit but this is like.. every post is like... YES. YES. hahaha. Also thanks guys, I feel like this is the first time I've really been this honest about myself on the forum. It's hard for me without doing it through the lens of a character, or some abstract art form. It's easy for me to be fully honest that way, but when I'm talking about myself I'm always like.. "wait, is this really true?"


----------



## Animal

Um, it posted that post twice - sorry


----------



## SilentScream

Cherubic Rogue said:


> @_Tortured_ & @_Fallen Nocturne_ .. *It's funny that I can relate to the 485/584 posts so much more than the 'just plain old 5' threads. I relate to those threads a bit but this is like.. every post is like... YES. YES.* hahaha. Also thanks guys, I feel like this is the first time I've really been this honest about myself on the forum. It's hard for me without doing it through the lens of a character, or some abstract art form. It's easy for me to be fully honest that way, but when I'm talking about myself I'm always like.. "wait, is this really true?"


Interesting .. I was just telling @_Etherea_ exactly this. I've also always questioned myself before ... even when i was making post after post after post relating to other types .. it was like .. I was expressing and living up to some sort of imaginary/idealized version of myself as opposed to really being myself, but still constantly feeling like I was being inauthenthic and fake. A lot of things I used to write about being other types felt true .. but now looking back .. I think I made myself into a character. 

I'm reminded of the time when I started making posts like "are you not entertained?" .. I became someone everyone would like on this forum .. and yet I felt inauthentic doing so .. my core desire of being authentic still shone through. 

There was another time when I actually requested one of the mods to allow me to retire this account and give me different so I could continue to post as myself .. but without having to live up to this image I had created. [I was refused, of course as it's against the rules of this site]. 

Also, I realized that it was perhaps shame and embarrassment at being fake for so long that I wanted to give up the identity altogether and ... hmm .. almost like pressing the reset button. I've wished so many times that I had a reset button ... kinda like a computer .. so I could simply wipe off my memory and start all over again. 

But then I realize that I'd probably still end up doing everything the exact same way. It's like ... in the space time continuum I believe we each occupy our distinct place and continue to play out the role we're ordained to. 

Even if we did have the power to alter our choices, we probably still would make the same ones because that's who we are at our very core. Just because we have a choice doesn't mean that we'll make a different one if we had a chance to do over.


----------



## Animal

My intention was never to research myself. However, I encountered all these things I never studied before.. tritype, MTBI. Using myself as an example, I decided to research these further, in a very 5-like objective manner, with the intention of trityping and MTBI typing my characters, just for fun. I can't impress enough that I don't think of my characters in terms of enneagram.. they come to me as concepts, and they write themselves honestly. YEARS LATER it occurred to me to type them. I first came up with these characters around 2001.

But of course now, having found out all these new systems... and lo and behold.. my'self' got involved. How did that happen? I've been so buried on my home planet for so long that I haven't thought about that self of mine in ages... *looks in mirror, confused*



Tortured said:


> Interesting .. I was just telling @_Etherea_ exactly this. I've also always questioned myself before ... even when i was making post after post after post relating to other types .. it was like .. I was expressing and living up to some sort of imaginary/idealized version of myself as opposed to really being myself, but still constantly feeling like I was being inauthenthic and fake. A lot of things I used to write about being other types felt true .. but now looking back .. I think I made myself into a character.
> 
> I'm reminded of the time when I started making posts like "are you not entertained?" .. I became someone everyone would like on this forum .. and yet I felt inauthentic doing so .. my core desire of being authentic still shone through.
> 
> There was another time when I actually requested one of the mods to allow me to retire this account and give me different so I could continue to post as myself .. but without having to live up to this image I had created. [I was refused, of course as it's against the rules of this site].
> 
> Also, I realized that it was perhaps shame and embarrassment at being fake for so long that I wanted to give up the identity altogether and ... hmm .. almost like pressing the reset button. I've wished so many times that I had a reset button ... kinda like a computer .. so I could simply wipe off my memory and start all over again.
> 
> But then I realize that I'd probably still end up doing everything the exact same way. It's like ... in the space time continuum I believe we each occupy our distinct place and continue to play out the role we're ordained to.
> 
> Even if we did have the power to alter our choices, we probably still would make the same ones because that's who we are at our very core. Just because we have a choice doesn't mean that we'll make a different one if we had a chance to do over.


----------



## Chipps

This thread is giving me douche chills just reading it.


----------



## Promethea

So this one time, in pseudo-shaman camp, G.I. Gurdjieff smoked up and hallucinated these limited nine types for all humanity that we absolutely must fit in. 

And then this other time. some really bad enneagram information spilled in from some another guy's opinion of these "*nine types that all humans must fit into*." 

And some were simple to type.. and some were harder to type.. based on yanno -- simple bullshit.

But we had rationalizations even for every little nuance of their lack of fitting in perfectly -- in order to yes, make it fit in.

So we took parts of who a person is away from them -- or we tried. I mean people can't possibly have characteristics that deviate from what we see as their *ONE CORE MOTIVATION*!


----------



## Mizmar

Promethea said:


> So this one time, in pseudo-shaman camp, G.I. Gurdjieff smoked up and hallucinated these limited nine types for all humanity that we absolutely must fit in.
> 
> And then this other time. some really bad enneagram information spilled in from some another guy's opinion of these "*nine types that all humans must fit into*."
> 
> And some were simple to type.. and some were harder to type.. based on yanno -- simple bullshit.
> 
> But we had rationalizations even for every little nuance of their lack of fitting in perfectly -- in order to yes, make it fit in.
> 
> So we took parts of who a person is away from them -- or we tried. I mean people can't possibly have characteristics that deviate from what we see as their *ONE CORE MOTIVATION*!


That was the best post ever written on this entire forum. It should be required reading for all.


----------



## Animal

Chipps said:


> This thread is giving me douche chills just reading it.


Douche chills? Rotfl! 

Spilling my heart out would be less invigorating without haters / mockery / someone laughing at it... O hehehe

Most of my friends will attest that making fun of me for wearing my heart on my sleeve, being clumsy, or social awkwardness is one of their favorite activities. I'll take it. At least I have friends and they find me funny ,unintentional humor notwithstanding ...


----------



## SilentScream

Cherubic Rogue said:


> Douche chills? Rotfl!
> 
> Spilling my heart out would be less invigorating without haters / mockery / someone laughing at it... O hehehe
> 
> Most of my friends will attest that making fun of me for wearing my heart on my sleeve, being clumsy, or social awkwardness is one of their favorite activities. I'll take it. At least I have friends and they find me funny ,unintentional humor notwithstanding ...


Oh .. I'll take it from friends alright, but I have to be in the right mood for it. Sometimes I actually express myself and pour my heart out in a sort of self-mocking style anyways. I don't mind mocking myself for being an over-emotional/over-dramatic attention whore ... but I'll be damned if I let anyone who isn't close to my heart do the same.


----------



## Animal

Tortured said:


> Oh .. I'll take it from friends alright, but I have to be in the right mood for it. Sometimes I actually express myself and pour my heart out in a sort of self-mocking style anyways. I don't mind mocking myself for being an over-emotional/over-dramatic attention whore ... but I'll be damned if I let anyone who isn't close to my heart do the same.


I learned very early on that anything I put out into the world is subject to mockery, scrutiny, and being twisted to suit the purposes of others. I was tortured so badly for my honesty as a kid that I knew I had to make a choice - conform to be a less likely target, or continue being honest and take the attention as a complement. I am not someone who seeks attention but my parents told me over and over - take it as a complement. And over time I realized they were right. Some people who care about attention would die to be the center of gossip and conversation the way I become naturally, just by being true to myself. So I learned to adjust. I keep what is sacred sacred. And that is the details of my fantasy world which you won't see on any forum and which I only share with my closest friends. My friendships are also sacred so I wouldn't be sharing details of my friends secrets with others either. But as far as my own experiences, I have a profile with my music portraying my alter egos and battle with Lyme, and videos of me singing with my whispery voice on you tube, and all of that is up for mockery And scrutiny, since it's there for public consumption. Anything I do on a forum or Facebook or even in public, is fair grounds for mockery because I put it out there. I'm okay with that though- if it helps anyone or helps me relate to someone in an honest fashion then it's worth it... The negative feedback is nothing more than a boost to my ego for attracting unintentional attention.


----------



## Animal

It is also worth noting that most haters & non-friends stop making fun of me the moment they realize it feeds my ego.


----------



## SilentScream

Cherubic Rogue said:


> I learned very early on that anything I put out into the world is subject to mockery, scrutiny, and being twisted to suit the purposes of others. I was tortured so badly for my honesty as a kid that I knew I had to make a choice - conform to be a less likely target, or continue being honest and take the attention as a complement. I am not someone who seeks attention but my parents told me over and over - take it as a complement. And over time I realized they were right. Some people who care about attention would die to be the center of gossip and conversation the way I become naturally, just by being true to myself. So I learned to adjust. I keep what is sacred sacred. And that is the details of my fantasy world which you won't see on any forum and which I only share with my closest friends. My friendships are also sacred so I wouldn't be sharing details of my friends secrets with others either. But as far as my own experiences, I have a profile with my music portraying my alter egos and battle with Lyme, and videos of me singing with my whispery voice on you tube, and all of that is up for mockery And scrutiny, since it's there for public consumption. Anything I do on a forum or Facebook or even in public, is fair grounds for mockery because I put it out there. I'm okay with that though- if it helps anyone or helps me relate to someone in an honest fashion then it's worth it... The negative feedback is nothing more than a boost to my ego for attracting unintentional attention.


I was like that till I hit 30. I had never been publicly or even privately as open about myself as I am here on this forum for the past year. There were only 4-5 people I'd opened myself up to my entire life ... one of whom used all that knowledge about my inner core to abuse me for 5+ years [my ex]. 

I do wish now that I hadn't opened up as much as I had on this forum. When I first came on, I was still relatively private and very guarded about my deepest secrets. But people consistently encouraged me to open up [and I think they were well-intentioned]. I think I got carried away and became far too trusting. I didn't realize the impact of all my spilled emotions. 

I do wish that I had not talked to as many people as I did and not revealed everything about myself. But then, at the same time a part of me doesn't want to regret my decisions and choices because in the end, they were always my own choices and I did intuit about the impacts to a certain degree .. perhaps not as much as I should've. 

I made the mistake of being far too trusting of too many people .. I wonder if being an so last had something to do with this. I wasn't used to socializing this much .. and I had spent 17 years prior to this in relative isolation only talking to at most 1-2 people at a time. I had never been part of a group bigger than 4 people and even then, I used to zone in on just one person and make them my best friend. I completely ignored the fact that I was posting in a public forum where there are all kinds of people and that every single of my words/posts could potentially be used to eventually mock me ... Thankfully, it hasn't happened to me as much as it has to some other people. I've been fairly lucky with my experience here for the most part. 

Many of my poor decisions were my own as has always been the case. But yes, where I have felt that I've been treated completely unfairly, I have always fought back to regain control and take back my right to post freely. And pretty much everyone on the forum has given me the freedom to do so. 

I've enjoyed my time here. I've enjoyed meeting new people, exchanging thoughts, sharing stories of my life, merging with people. There is good and bad wherever you go, so I've accepted it for the most part and taken it within my stride. In fact a number of times even @_Etherea_ has said that I let people get away with more than she would .. but I suppose it's partly because I can thankfully detach myself from my emotions and think about things objectively.


----------



## Animal

I, for one, enjoyed your posts yesterday and how much you opened up. I'll probably go back through my own posts and edit out a few things about my sex life just in case I ever become a famous rockstar or have a boss or boyfriend's mom who would be offended by having it in public. . but seriously - I don't have any secrets!! I don't have shame or secrets- I have a few things that are sacred and I keep them as such but I can't understand why so many people present this false, watered down version of who they really are and then beat themselves up when the truth of them is revealed to the public. Nobody has anything on me - there's no blackmail, nothing... I have nothing to hide.

I think you should be proud/ happy with who you are and how you present yourself on this forum. Clearly you met @Etherea here and she is beyond wonderful. So you must have done something right!! If you scared twenty people away with the truth, but drew in that one special person, then it's all worth it in my eyes- there is nothing to regret. 



Tortured said:


> I was like that till I hit 30. I had never been publicly or even privately as open about myself as I am here on this forum for the past year. There were only 4-5 people I'd opened myself up to my entire life ... one of whom used all that knowledge about my inner core to abuse me for 5+ years [my ex].
> 
> I do wish now that I hadn't opened up as much as I had on this forum. When I first came on, I was still relatively private and very guarded about my deepest secrets. But people consistently encouraged me to open up [and I think they were well-intentioned]. I think I got carried away and became far too trusting. I didn't realize the impact of all my spilled emotions.
> 
> I do wish that I had not talked to as many people as I did and not revealed everything about myself. But then, at the same time a part of me doesn't want to regret my decisions and choices because in the end, they were always my own choices and I did intuit about the impacts to a certain degree .. perhaps not as much as I should've.
> 
> I made the mistake of being far too trusting of too many people .. I wonder if being an so last had something to do with this. I wasn't used to socializing this much .. and I had spent 17 years prior to this in relative isolation only talking to at most 1-2 people at a time. I had never been part of a group bigger than 4 people and even then, I used to zone in on just one person and make them my best friend. I completely ignored the fact that I was posting in a public forum where there are all kinds of people and that every single of my words/posts could potentially be used to eventually mock me ... Thankfully, it hasn't happened to me as much as it has to some other people. I've been fairly lucky with my experience here for the most part.
> 
> Many of my poor decisions were my own as has always been the case. But yes, where I have felt that I've been treated completely unfairly, I have always fought back to regain control and take back my right to post freely. And pretty much everyone on the forum has given me the freedom to do so.
> 
> I've enjoyed my time here. I've enjoyed meeting new people, exchanging thoughts, sharing stories of my life, merging with people. There is good and bad wherever you go, so I've accepted it for the most part and taken it within my stride. In fact a number of times even @_Etherea_ has said that I let people get away with more than she would .. but I suppose it's partly because I can thankfully detach myself from my emotions and think about things objectively.


----------



## Entropic

So apparently I'm a bit of a mistype so hi? I'm most likely a 548 type.

I'll write something more lengthy tomorrow maybe. The description of 548 is a good starting point actually because some parts really describe me well.


----------



## Entropic

I think the discussion of 548 touches on some really good points that definitely apply to me, but I would in particular like to touch upon this:



> I find it a complex, contradictory and often perplexing type to be. The 3 numbers pull against each other, and there is no social element(3, 6, or 9) to smooth the way. This is exacerbated if you have SO as your last stacking. However, dark, eccentric, creative, cynical, sensitive, scholarly are not wide of the mark (although tend to create a caricature if taken too seriously).
> 
> 5-4-8's are subject to rapid oscillations of emotion and thought, equally capable of preternatural strength and weakness of mind at any given moment. One minute an angel, the next a cruel tyrant. A lot of love and a lot of hate. Exquisitely sensitive but all too capable of cruelty and callousness to others. One wants to know, in a totalizing and essential fashion, know poetically but know precisely as well, but never quite gets there.
> 
> We are paradox-mongers, live in metaphor, and are always trying to find new ways to say and see things (and hence are often pretentious) - i.e. iconoclasts - but can be as pedantic, systematic and anally analytical as anyone. 5-4-8's have a predisposition to religion and philosophy, especially pessimistic and melancholic strains, but a commensurate disappointment with the lack of answers that satisfy us and a concomitant melancholy.


This description is quite accurate of how I view myself and how I apparently come across to others as well. I even described myself as a paradox in my enneagram "type me" thread because I always seem to swing between two forms of extremities. On the one hand I can come across as incredibly sensitive and caring but another cruel and heartless. I described myself as a person of being and not-being. I am but at the same time I am not. My existence cannot be confined to one level of reality because that is much to simplistic to describe who I am. People have called me intense and complicated. I experience myself as an individual with internal darkness I hide from most others. I'm an iconoclast in my thinking as I like to challenge the status quo and provide with my own reasoning as to why things are or how things should be. I've been called cold, arrogant and selfish. I do not deny any of those these perhaps less flattering descriptions of me, but then there's also the other side where I've been called the most emotional person they've ever known and a person you can trust no matter what. 

As was mentioned at the beginning of the 548 description, I also am easily mistaken for a 4 and I come off quite strongly as a 4. I am prone to extreme levels of moody-ness and my mood swings as much as I switch between my various selves. One day I'm happy and upbeat, another day pessimistic, cynical and misanthropic. Again, neither state truly describe me as much as the relationship between states does. 

As a 5w4, I'm moody, quite envious of others and have a strong sense of self. I put a lot of focus on self-discovery and soul-search, and I think one of the most important qualities you can have as a person is to have good knowledge and understanding of the self. This is what ultimately drove me to study the MBTI, enneagram and now socionics. There is again a bit of a paradox with how my constant drive for self-discovery is driven by a need to understand those around me, especially those deviant to myself in some way. I find that I'm often feeling misunderstood in some way. 

There's also the aspect of my personality that seems to create a love-hate relationship with others. It's hard to be neutral around me. Either you like me or you dislike me. You can't stay neutral. I have this weird impact on others and things even when I am seemingly not doing anything. People also seem to admire me intellectually for reasons I cannot understand. I have been described by someone else on Personality Cafe as fulfilling some kind of scholar archetype. I'm the wise sage people recognize and will go to when they require advise on something. I find that this is definitely true to a large degree, people often come to me when they need some kind of opinion or just desire help when understanding something theoretical in particular. 

I also find that certain people tend to be drawn to me even though I don't do anything else than simply expressing my own opinions. They don't consciously create groups around my persona but at least on internet forums I find that these people tend to lurk and stalk my posts because I seemingly always got something useful to say. This is definitely true, I only say something when I think it is useful in some way. 

So aside all that, what is it like to be a 548? I feel that it's a complicated tritype in many ways. I feel complicated and sometimes I have a desire to perhaps be more somplistic. I also feel that I tend to take even simple things and make that simple thing more complicated. This is true when it comes to abstract theories. I seek theoretical elegance but not in the form of simplistic minimalism but complex simplicity. This means that I like theories that explain the totality of something in an adequate and beautiful way, but doing so in a manner that is intuitive, rational and logical without being making it pretentiuos. The logical explanation should alreay be there as an innate quality, it is natural. The problem is to find and unveil this one truth. 

There's the underlying assumption that the 458 tritype isn't that common, especially the 5w4 and 4w5 combination that I have in particular. I am not sure how true this is but I find that it is hard to find people to get along with. I think a lot of people have a hard time matching my dark intensity. I'm not so externally focused as a 7 might be, but my energy rather comes from inside and is focused on what's inside of me. This is also the aspect of myself that I often find is misunderstood by others. When I try to explain I notice that others have a hard time relating. As a person I'm interested in the dark and disturbing and I see it as a weakness to shy and try to look away. I have an interest in the darkness inside humans in general and how this darkness is expressed in art. This interest what I find in particular to be shied upon as most people don't seem to really share this interest with me. 

I'm also very individualistic and egocentric. Things should be done on my terms and how I want things to be like. I'm quite focused on what's logically efficient and I like to organize and structure things around me. I can also be very pedantic, I have high standards on myself and expect the same from others and sometimes become a little too detail-oriented. I take pride in being myself and there's little I would change.

I think that when my tritype is at its best, I'm highly individualistic, powerful and with the ability to drive change and change myself, take control of things and get things done. When my type is at its worse I am very withdrawn, stuck in a circle of self-pity and loathing and I don't get anything done in favor for being withdrawn from the world.


----------



## Entropic

I just bought the 27 Tritypes Revealed by the Fauvres, and this is what they write about the 458 tritype:


*When 4 is leading:*
Knowledge and direct 4s. This is the most analytical and tough-minded 4. This 4 tends to be intellectual with strong opinions. This 4 wants to know what makes people tick. This 4 will focus on gathering unique information to feel empowered. The core fears are of being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, commonplace, abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, beling fully embodied, not existing, weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, and being at the mercy of injustice. 

*When 5 is leading:*
Direct and intuitive 5. This is the most intense and eccentric 5. Scholarly, this is the "Professor". This 5 can be melancholy one moment and then detached the next. This 5 is the emotional and creative 5. This is the most outspoken, opinionated and non-conforming 5. The core fears are of intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, being fully embodied, not existing, weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, at the mercy of injustice, inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary and being abandoned. 
*
When 8 is leading:*
Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. This is the most sensitive and withdrawn 8, especially if introverted, self-preserving and/or with a 9 wing. This 8 can often be mistaken for a 5 or a 4. This is the creative and intellectual 8 that is secretely shy and emotional. The core fears are of weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, being at the mercy of injustice, being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, being abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, being fully embodied, and not existing.

*The Scholar: 458, 584, 845*

*Archetype*
If you are 458, you are intuitive, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be original, wise and straight-forward. You study what makes people tick and form strong opinions about what you learn. Somewhat introverted, you are identified with being an intuitive, strategic thinker and see interconnections that others may miss.

*Core Fears*
Your core fears are of being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, commonplace, abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, fully embodied, not existing, weakness, mediocrity, controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable and/or at the mercy of injustice.

*Life Purpose*
Your life mission is to discover what is innately human and share these findings with others. A true scholar, you passionately follow what your own muse and are happiest when you can study what is of interest to you and then disseminate what you find.

*Blind Spot*
Your blind spot is that you can so enarmored with what you have learned and your resulting opinions that you can come across as self absorbed, hyper-introspective, headstrong and cynical.

*The Scholar
458, 485, 548, 584, 845, 854*

*Core Triggers*
Feeling inadequate, engulfed and/or underestimated.

*Growing Edge*
Your growing edge is to recognize that your need to over analyze and "know" what you think and feel keeps you from truly being. Studying gives you information, not wisdom. True knowledge comes from connectiong to your higher self and authentically being.


----------



## Animal

LeaT said:


> I just bought the 27 Tritypes Revealed by the Fauvres, and this is what they write about the 458 tritype:
> 
> 
> *When 4 is leading:*
> Knowledge and direct 4s. This is the most analytical and tough-minded 4. This 4 tends to be intellectual with strong opinions. This 4 wants to know what makes people tick. This 4 will focus on gathering unique information to feel empowered. The core fears are of being inadequate, emotioally cut off, ordinary, commonplace, abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, beling fully embodied, not existing, weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, and being at the mercy of injustice.
> 
> *When 5 is leading:*
> Direct and intuitive 5. This is the most intense and eccentric 5. Scholarly, this is the "Professor". This 5 can be melancholy one moment and then detached the next. This 5 is the emotional and creative 5. This is the most outspoken, opinionated and non-conforming 5. The core fears are of intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, being fully embodied, not existing, weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, at the mercy of injustice, inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary and being abandoned.
> *
> When 8 is leading:*
> Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. This is the most sensitive and withdrawn 8, especially if introverted, self-preserving and/or with a 9 wing. This 8 can often be mistaken for a 5 or a 4. This is the creative and intellectual 8 that is secretely shy and emotional. The core fears are of weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, being at the mercy of injustice, being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, being abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, being fully embodied, and not existing.
> 
> *The Scholar: 458, 584, 845*
> 
> *Archetype*
> If you are 458, you are intuitive, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be original, wise and straight-forward. You study what makes people tick and form strong opinions about what you learn. Somewhat introverted, you are identified with being an intuitive, strategic thinker and see interconnections that others may miss.
> 
> *Core Fears*
> Your core fears are of being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, commonplace, abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, fully embodied, not existing, weakness, mediocrity, controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable and/or at the mercy of injustice.
> 
> *Life Purpose*
> Your life mission is to discover what is innately human and share these findings with others. A true scholar, you passionately follow what your own muse and are happiest when you can study what is of interest to you and then disseminate what you find.
> 
> *Blind Spot*
> Your blind spot is that you can so enarmored with what you have learned and your resulting opinions that you can come across as self absorbed, hyper-introspective, headstrong and cynical.


You bought that?? *I MUST BUY*

Is the text anywhere on the internet or must I be patient and wait for the book? =,(


----------



## Entropic

Maybe said:


> You bought that?? *I MUST BUY*
> 
> Is the text anywhere on the internet or must I be patient and wait for the book? =,(


What is that you want to know? And you can buy it off the Fauvres' websitem enneagram.net. It costs about 20 dollars so not overly expensive for the pdf version  The physical booklet costs 40 USD including shipping so I am happy I didn't do that LOL! Considering that I felt that the analysis was still thoroughly lacking I think the price for what it offers is all right. I had expected a little more though.


----------



## Animal

LeaT said:


> What is that you want to know? And you can buy it off the Fauvres' websitem enneagram.net. It costs about 20 dollars so not overly expensive for the pdf version  The physical booklet costs 40 USD including shipping so I am happy I didn't do that LOL! Considering that I felt that the analysis was still thoroughly lacking I think the price for what it offers is all right. I had expected a little more though.


Hmm. I'm usually willing to spend money on books for research... but if it's thoroughly lacking.. hm. I guess I'd opt for the PDF version if anything. Thanks for the recommendation. =D

What I wanted to know is, what do they say about 385, specifically leading with 3?

If it's a pdf, is this easy to copy/paste?


----------



## Entropic

Maybe said:


> Hmm. I'm usually willing to spend money on books for research... but if it's thoroughly lacking.. hm. I guess I'd opt for the PDF version if anything. Thanks for the recommendation. =D
> 
> What I wanted to know is, what do they say about 385, specifically leading with 3?
> 
> If it's a pdf, is this easy to copy/paste?


No, they have copyrighted the pages so you can't just mark and copy-paste written text. You can easily write it for hand though, but of course, that takes more time. Alternatively, one can screenshot each page.


----------



## bearotter

In particular, I wish
_
Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. This is the most sensitive and withdrawn 8, especially if introverted, self-preserving and/or with a 9 wing. This 8 can often be mistaken for a 5 or a 4. This is the creative and intellectual 8 that is secretely shy and emotional. The core fears are of weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, being at the mercy of injustice, being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, being abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, being fully embodied, and not existing.

_were a lot more expansive.


----------



## Entropic

bearotter said:


> In particular, I wish
> _
> Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. This is the most sensitive and withdrawn 8, especially if introverted, self-preserving and/or with a 9 wing. This 8 can often be mistaken for a 5 or a 4. This is the creative and intellectual 8 that is secretely shy and emotional. The core fears are of weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnerable, being at the mercy of injustice, being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, being abandoned, intrusion, emptiness, ignorance, surplus, contamination, being fully embodied, and not existing.
> 
> _were a lot more expansive.


Yes, I wish they analyzed wing influence and instinct variants with regards to tritype for one. How would a sexual 548 be compared to a social 548?


----------



## madhatter

I've heard that the Fauvres' book was not much more extensive than the archetype descriptions that are easily found on the internet, which is why I've never bought it.


----------



## Entropic

madhatter said:


> I've heard that the Fauvres' book was not much more extensive than the archetype descriptions that are easily found on the internet, which is why I've never bought it.


Yes, you are correct, they really aren't which is a let down. Then again, I suspect you might get more bang for your buck if you pay for their coaching service but I honestly don't know. 

The stuff I provided in the previous post I made including the image is all there is that they write about the 458 tritype, and they provide with the same information for all 27 tritypes. They use the same format. I think they expect you to buy their services if you want more in-depth knowledge. Still, I have to say it's a little greedy of them to not publish something more exhaustive considering the popularity of tritype and how they claim that tritype exists and is supported by their research. 

I'm irking of doing something about the 458 as a starting point at least.


----------



## The Wanderering ______

Yay!! More Meat.


----------



## gracemontez

i am the 584 one ))


----------



## leila0102030405

Hi. I am a 458.


----------



## Gossip Goat

I just recently learned I'm a 458 da scholar archetype n_n


----------



## Despotic Nepotist

I'm a 548 or a 584. I know I'm one of the two. Specifically, 5w6, 8w9, 4w5.


----------



## Dawd

I'm probably a 5w4 8w7 4w5. Hello.


----------



## Moya

It makes me very sad to browse through threads like this and see that almost all of the people identifying as this tritype are now inactive or have changed their type.

Come one, come all. Venture into the domain of the romantic, angry, intellectual narcissist.


----------



## Saira

@Moya I wouldn't want to disappoint you in a month and say I've changed my tritype. xD But right now, unless I find some better fit, I feel quite sure that I'm this tritype, probably 8w9 - 5w4 - 4w3.

I was first mistyped at 7 because I confused my hedonism and love of freedom and independence for type 7. Then I read some articles and books and completely identified with 5, but it turns out that I'm an introverted 8 with a very strong connection to 5. I don't know if I really have a 5 fix, or if I'm just prone to disintegrating lol. As for 4, there are some things that resonate strongly with me, and there are some which I can't identify with at all. I can see myself as 4 a bit more than 3 and much more than 2. 

In a nutshell, I'd say this all makes me a huge emotional coward. I often joke that I'm a rhinoceros. I hate showing and feeling vulnerability, but at the same time I want so badly to connect with someone to the core of my being - and that, combined with being like a stone statue, is _not_ a good combination in relationships.

I'm too tired to keep writing right now, I'm off to sleep, but I'd like to learn (and share) more about this tritype, so I'll be back if the thread continues.


----------



## Entropic

Saira said:


> @Moya I wouldn't want to disappoint you in a month and say I've changed my tritype. xD But right now, unless I find some better fit, I feel quite sure that I'm this tritype, probably 8w9 - 5w4 - 4w3.
> 
> I was first mistyped at 7 because I confused my hedonism and love of freedom and independence for type 7. Then I read some articles and books and completely identified with 5, but it turns out that I'm an introverted 8 with a very strong connection to 5. I don't know if I really have a 5 fix, or if I'm just prone to disintegrating lol. As for 4, there are some things that resonate strongly with me, and there are some which I can't identify with at all. I can see myself as 4 a bit more than 3 and much more than 2.
> 
> *In a nutshell, I'd say this all makes me a huge emotional coward. I often joke that I'm a rhinoceros. I hate showing and feeling vulnerability, but at the same time I want so badly to connect with someone to the core of my being - and that, combined with being like a stone statue, is not a good combination in relationships.*
> 
> I'm too tired to keep writing right now, I'm off to sleep, but I'd like to learn (and share) more about this tritype, so I'll be back if the thread continues.


Are you a sexual subtype? I relate to the part in bolded. I have discussed this subject with my shrink a fair bit and while I can be very socially open, I am not emotionally open, even though I may at first glance seem to give off such an impression to people. 

Never mistyped as a 7 though because I knew I never was one. Did type as a 5 for a long time but I think if you are into Fauvre's idea of tritype, you should apply their tritype logic in that if you have a fix that has a direct connection to your core, you may look like that fix rather than the core i.e. 5-fixed 8 will look a lot like a 5. 

Anyway, I think what makes a 5-fix or not is not so much introversion but whether you identify with knowledge-hoarding.



Moya said:


> It makes me very sad to browse through threads like this and see that almost all of the people identifying as this tritype are now inactive or have changed their type.
> 
> Come one, come all. Venture into the domain of the romantic, angry, intellectual narcissist.


lol, I mistyped as triple withdrawn so for me it's the other way around, heh. I identify with my tritype very much and I think it fits like a glove.


----------



## Saira

Entropic said:


> Are you a sexual subtype? I relate to the part in bolded. I have discussed this subject with my shrink a fair bit and while I can be very socially open, I am not emotionally open, even though I may at first glance seem to give off such an impression to people.
> 
> Never mistyped as a 7 though because I knew I never was one. Did type as a 5 for a long time but I think if you are into Fauvre's idea of tritype, you should apply their tritype logic in that if you have a fix that has a direct connection to your core, you may look like that fix rather than the core i.e. 5-fixed 8 will look a lot like a 5.
> 
> Anyway, I think what makes a 5-fix or not is not so much introversion but whether you identify with knowledge-hoarding.


I think I am. I'm either sx/sp or sp/sx, I still need to figure it out. I also seem open sometimes because I'm very assertive at expressing what I want or think, but expressing what I _feel_ is freaking hard. In those situations I become nearly autistic, or angry. Did you manage to overcome the fear of opening up? I really need to do it. I love my boyfriend far too much to lose him over being too proud and afraid.

Thanks for that explanation! It makes a lot of sense. I'm 100% 8 at my core, but I'm such a weird mix of expansive and reserved that it took me a long time to accept being an 8. For example, I'm rarely trying to control others. I control myself in order to be powerful. I'm building my strength from the inside, not from controlling other people; I mostly don't give a shit what they do as long as they don't try to interfere with me.

I identified the most not with the knowledge hoarding but with self-hoarding, to say so.  If you've read Naranjo's "Character and Neurosis" or Maitri you'll know what I mean. Here, I'll find the link, I've written it somewhere on the forum before.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-forum-investigator/151534-type-5-excerpts-maitri.html#post3861142


----------



## Entropic

Saira said:


> I think I am. I'm either sx/sp or sp/sx, I still need to figure it out. I also seem open sometimes because I'm very assertive at expressing what I want or think, but expressing what I _feel_ is freaking hard. In those situations I become nearly autistic, or angry. Did you manage to overcome the fear of opening up? I really need to do it. I love my boyfriend far too much to lose him over being too proud and afraid.


My problem is that I don't even notice my own emotional repression in the first place so I can't open up about something I don't know is there. I trust her very deeply though so that helps a lot. 



> Thanks for that explanation! It makes a lot of sense. I'm 100% 8 at my core, but I'm such a weird mix of expansive and reserved that it took me a long time to accept being an 8. For example, I'm rarely trying to control others. I control myself in order to be powerful. I'm building my strength from the inside, not from controlling other people; I mostly don't give a shit what they do as long as they don't try to interfere with me.


I don't judge my core on how I choose to control or how I expand my energy. I would say it's pretty obvious that I try to control others though, and I mostly do that through intellectual domination but there are other ways too.



> I identified the most not with the knowledge hoarding but with self-hoarding, to say so.  If you've read Naranjo's "Character and Neurosis" or Maitri you'll know what I mean. Here, I'll find the link, I've written it somewhere on the forum before.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-forum-investigator/151534-type-5-excerpts-maitri.html#post3861142


I don't type off behavior as much as I type off the underlying core mechanics i.e. Lust, Avarice etc. I mistyped because I went off behavior. I personally don't like Naranjo much at all. I am not sure I think the man really understands the theory in a very deep kind of way. He's much too keen on attaching ideas to outside things rather than trying to understand the deeper core and explore that.


----------



## Gentleman

I exist. Probably. 548.


----------



## He's a Superhero!

Two of my siblings are of this tritype! 584 and 485.


----------



## Entropic

Stampede said:


> I exist. Probably. 548.


You? I'm sorry but that's outright lol-worthy.


----------



## Gentleman

Entropic said:


> You? I'm sorry but that's outright lol-worthy.


Why? I asked here and got only one respondent: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/310010-aloha-folks-whats-my-enneagram-type.html

The description fits me perfectly. If not 548, what do you believe me to be?


----------



## tanstaafl28

584 here.


----------



## tanstaafl28

Entropic said:


> You? I'm sorry but that's outright lol-worthy.


What do you mean by this?


----------



## Moya

Interesting how most people I've seen of this tritype are core 8s or 5s. Haven't seen very many 458s or 485s.


----------



## Entropic

tanstaafl28 said:


> What do you mean by this?


Because I think I've seen enough of this poster to say that they definitely don't seem to fit the archetype of 458.



Stampede said:


> Why? I asked here and got only one respondent: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/310010-aloha-folks-whats-my-enneagram-type.html
> 
> The description fits me perfectly. If not 548, what do you believe me to be?


I don't trust in people's ability to type enneagram, especially on the internet. That you relate to the description means nothing. Anyone can relate to everyone and their mother if they are so inclined. I mean, dude, you got a smiling pie as your avatar. You're a soft fluffy and I rest my case. Even an Ne-Si 458 would be really dark as a person.

Also skimming your questionnaire, I see some arguments towards you being of the attachment triad. Some 3, a lot of plausible 6, possibly some 9. I think you are a 3 or a 6 though. This fear you have of needing to project an image of being of use or being useful while at the same time shying being made subservient of others does not strike me as particularly 8. Not at all. I'll break it down in your thread.


----------



## iisu

Entropic said:


> I mean, dude, you got a smiling pie as your avatar.


I see it as a Creepy Evil Pie Of Hell. It has blood coming out of its mouth. Its head is damaged and the brain has partially leaked out but it's not dead yet. It's smiling at you with its narrow evil eyes, it's not going do die... ever...
@Stampede
Your questionnaire doesn't leave impression that you're a 5 on me. You seem oriented to people around you and to the society and rejection really hurts you a lot, it's a theme which goes through many of your answers. I didn't notice much tendency to withdraw and collect knowledge before acting.

Back on topic, so far I came to conclusion that I'm 854.


----------



## Gentleman

Entropic said:


> Because I think I've seen enough of this poster to say that they definitely don't seem to fit the archetype of 458.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't trust in people's ability to type enneagram, especially on the internet. That you relate to the description means nothing. Anyone can relate to everyone and their mother if they are so inclined. I mean, dude, you got a smiling pie as your avatar. You're a soft fluffy and I rest my case. Even an Ne-Si 458 would be really dark as a person.
> 
> Also skimming your questionnaire, I see some arguments towards you being of the attachment triad. Some 3, a lot of plausible 6, possibly some 9. I think you are a 3 or a 6 though. This fear you have of needing to project an image of being of use or being useful while at the same time shying being made subservient of others does not strike me as particularly 8. Not at all. I'll break it down in your thread.


I'm definitely not a soft fluffy, but the rest of your analysis makes sense. It was meant to be a psychopathic serial killer pie. Thank you.


----------



## Entropic

Stampede said:


> I'm definitely not a soft fluffy, but the rest of your analysis makes sense. It was meant to be a psychopathic serial killer pie. Thank you.


Personally I can't take it seriously at all. I see it as the kind of attempt I see in people trying to be scary and try so hard they just come across as funny as a result.


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## Gentleman

Entropic said:


> Personally I can't take it seriously at all. I see it as the kind of attempt I see in people trying to be scary and try so hard they just come across as funny as a result.


Thank you, glad I can provide entertainment.


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## tanstaafl28

Entropic said:


> Because I think I've seen enough of this poster to say that they definitely don't seem to fit the archetype of 458.
> 
> I don't trust in people's ability to type enneagram, especially on the internet. That you relate to the description means nothing. Anyone can relate to everyone and their mother if they are so inclined. I mean, dude, you got a smiling pie as your avatar. You're a soft fluffy and I rest my case. Even an Ne-Si 458 would be really dark as a person.
> 
> Also skimming your questionnaire, I see some arguments towards you being of the attachment triad. Some 3, a lot of plausible 6, possibly some 9. I think you are a 3 or a 6 though. This fear you have of needing to project an image of being of use or being useful while at the same time shying being made subservient of others does not strike me as particularly 8. Not at all. I'll break it down in your thread.


Now I'm wondering what you'll make of my choosing Don Quixote as my avatar.


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## Entropic

tanstaafl28 said:


> Now I'm wondering what you'll make of my choosing Don Quixote as my avatar.


Never really thought of you being a 5, if that's what you mean. Mostly because I never really thought I saw avarice in you. Even if you are a 5, I have a hard time seeing 458. You don't really seem to be a particularly dark person at all.


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## tanstaafl28

Entropic said:


> Never really thought of you being a 5, if that's what you mean. Mostly because I never really thought I saw avarice in you. Even if you are a 5, I have a hard time seeing 458. You don't really seem to be a particularly dark person at all.


My dominant instinctual subtype is social. I keep a lot of my "dark" hidden.


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## Entropic

tanstaafl28 said:


> My dominant instinctual subtype is social. I keep a lot of my "dark" hidden.


I don't think that's how the social instinct works.


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## tanstaafl28

Entropic said:


> I don't think that's how the social instinct works.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I want to be accepted and "fit in," and thus I may choose to "tone down" some of my darker thoughts, or save them for people in my "inner circle."

I was going to justify myself further, but I don't really feel like I should have to.


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## Entropic

tanstaafl28 said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I want to be accepted and "fit in," and thus I may choose to "tone down" some of my darker thoughts, or save them for people in my "inner circle."
> 
> I was going to justify myself further, but I don't really feel like I should have to.


The social instinct isn't about "wanting to fit in" in a social context though, but it's awareness of social dynamics and understanding power dynamics and hierarchies. Obviously all people may choose to hide parts of themselves in public but I don't think a truly dark person would be capable of hiding all aspects of their darkness away. Seems like unhealthy repression to me. I don't show all people my dark sides either but it doesn't change the fact that I likely come across as a dark person anyway. I think that would be true for any 458, especially because of the 4 fix.


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## MeeshkaSkwoz

Unfortunately, yes, we do exist — in fact, Nietzsche was one, but I doubt he's going to come forward and comment on this thread.

I'm a 548 and a lot of the actually correct characteristics of the 458 archetype applies to me, such as the "dark" thing (I honestly think it's a little cringey to be called "dark" and all that shit, but hey, my interests beg to differ from that opinion of mine) — ever since I was a small child, honestly —, the ultra-independent thing (I really do fucking hate unsolicited help, save from some very, very few exceptions), and I have been called insensitive and rude due to my almost-always-present honesty and directness, which is not true at all, as I get emotional easily with stuff that matters a lot to me (very close friends, family, art — specially music, etc.).

Contradicting my last statement, I tend to have a hard time feeling strong emotions towards things. I know I just said that I get emotional easily with some things, but look: those are VERY specific things (to me, at least), and inside those things, the things that makes me emotional are even more specific. So when I'm watching a movie, reading a book or something similar, I may like it, but still don't have any strong feelings about it, which to me is VERY weird. Living with 5 and 4 inside your head is pure paradox.


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## Animal

Nietzsche was 541. All judgment and harsh critiques, shoulds, good vs evil. Close though!


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## Abbaladon Arc V

387 is far batter


This tritype is ojly dicksucker who are rude and think they fight the evil by reality but at the end they only provide lie and false philosophy.

Nietzsche is empty and if you look the context where he live you can understand faster he is only stupid by relativity.


Jordan peterson is an 3 negociate wiuth the work with some 5 and some 8 or 7 


But theses guys are pretty useless until they are high placed in society by their family as i see IRL like Nietzsche LOL

And Nietzsche take works by others guys before him LOL 2


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## MeeshkaSkwoz

Animal said:


> Nietzsche was 541. All judgment and harsh critiques, shoulds, good vs evil. Close though!


Could be, yeah, even though now I'm not sure about which one of these two it would be. But thanks, I'll consider that. In this case, Trent Reznor fits the bill, too.


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## tanstaafl28

MeeshkaSkwoz said:


> Unfortunately, yes, we do exist — in fact, Nietzsche was one, but I doubt he's going to come forward and comment on this thread.
> 
> I'm a 548 and a lot of the actually correct characteristics of the 458 archetype applies to me, such as the "dark" thing (I honestly think it's a little cringey to be called "dark" and all that shit, but hey, my interests beg to differ from that opinion of mine) — ever since I was a small child, honestly —, the ultra-independent thing (I really do fucking hate unsolicited help, save from some very, very few exceptions), and I have been called insensitive and rude due to my almost-always-present honesty and directness, which is not true at all, as I get emotional easily with stuff that matters a lot to me (very close friends, family, art — specially music, etc.).
> 
> Contradicting my last statement, I tend to have a hard time feeling strong emotions towards things. I know I just said that I get emotional easily with some things, but look: those are VERY specific things (to me, at least), and inside those things, the things that makes me emotional are even more specific. So when I'm watching a movie, reading a book or something similar, I may like it, but still don't have any strong feelings about it, which to me is VERY weird. Living with 5 and 4 inside your head is pure paradox.


But how much time have you spent considering serial killers?


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## Monadnock

458 here. What am I being summoned for this time?


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## MeeshkaSkwoz

tanstaafl28 said:


> But how much time have you spent considering serial killers?


You mean serial killers that might be 458s or just serial killers in general? In any case, I do find serial killers to be very interesting and I've read a lot about different ones. Some of them are just mind boggling, like Ted Kaczynski and Jeffrey Dahmer (the latter because he's different in a way that I can kinda sympathize with him). But I haven't found one that I can imagine being a 458, or at least I can't remember right now.


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## Animal

MeeshkaSkwoz said:


> Could be, yeah, even though now I'm not sure about which one of these two it would be. But thanks, I'll consider that. In this case, Trent Reznor fits the bill, too.


Completely agree. I type Trent as 5w6 1w9 4w3 Sp/Sx , and Neitzsche but definitely 514 or 541. I'm going to look into him more to nail down the wings, instincts etc.


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## Animal

Serial killers are most often attachment types. They are let down by humanity, and the only way to break the attachment is to kill them. Types that are off-triangle are better at detaching into their own separate world, so the impulse to kill is not paramount. However, obviously, anything could happen so I'm not ruling it out; it just wouldn't be as much of a trend.

One good example is Ted Bundy, a 3. He was attached to his ex so he killed women that looked like her.


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## Dangerose

Animal said:


> Serial killers are most often attachment types. They are let down by humanity, and the only way to break the attachment is to kill them. Types that are off-triangle are better at detaching into their own separate world, so the impulse to kill is not paramount. However, obviously, anything could happen so I'm not ruling it out; it just wouldn't be as much of a trend.
> 
> One good example is Ted Bundy, a 3. He was attached to his ex so he killed women that looked like her.


I'm not sure if Ted Bundy is a 2w3 or a 3w2 (or even if he's really typeable, although he's obviously an image type and the way he invented things about his own identity speaks to 3 to me), but I see him as being largely motivated by the idea of _possession_ of the women he murdered, _you're so mine that I have killed you_, something that interests me is that he asked his ashes to be buried in the place where he murdered most of his victims (he also asked his girlfriends to play dead during sex and maybe necrophilia isn't typeable but that looks like 'having total power over you', not 'being let down, breaking the attachment' :/) It looks like desire for power and conquest and control to me...as well as maybe proving that he was a legend, that he could get away with anything?

*I found it a 3ish detail, maybe in line with what you're saying, that he was apparently _deeply surprised if anyone had recognized him_ at the scene of a crime because he believed that we live in a world where everyone walks around anonymously, I'm definitely open to 3, but I see power-triad making more sense than attachment triad? I imagine a lot of 5 serial killers too trying to falsely integrate to 8 Raskolnikov-style.


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## midnightflower

Hi five friend, another 548 is here  



> We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct


I didnt' understand why people feel so attacked by my words when I was young. The thing I kept saying was 'but it's the truth.. don't you agree?' .. and I realized when I grew up that I did offend many people.. I'm learning now.. still.. huh..


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## MeeshkaSkwoz

midnightflower said:


> Hi five friend, another 548 is here
> 
> 
> 
> I didnt' understand why people feel so attacked by my words when I was young. The thing I kept saying was 'but it's the truth.. don't you agree?' .. and I realized when I grew up that I did offend many people.. I'm learning now.. still.. huh..


That hits home. Apparently, I might've recently lost a friend due to a combination of a really unnecessary light discussion (the most "direct" things I said were stuff like "you'd better inform yourself more" and "why are you opining, then?" after she said she didn't really care for the subject she gave an opinion on) and possibly a bad day for her. I don't actually know if this is the case or not, but if so, it's a shame.


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## FossilMouth

perfectcircle said:


> I heard a rumor we're super rare , and I haven't run into any other of my tri-type on the forum, is there anyone else out there (in any order) of the 548 variety? We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct (and often intense, though perhaps not as much as some like the 864) tri-types. Agree or disagree?
> 
> I'd love to talk about what it's like to be a 854, and hear other person's experiences with being this type, partly to find some peers, partly for interesting reading/get discussion going, and partly to form a better understanding of the tri-type/myself to work into my self-knowledge, but that's irrelevant...
> 
> Does madhatter's collected tri-type descritption of the 458 fit you pretty well? Discuss
> Here it is:


I just found out I'm a 584. I knew I was a 5w4 sx/sp. I discovered the tritype when looking up Daniel Day-Lewis. I made a profile to answer your question. I appreciate reading the replies. I have often wondered if there are others like me, and so, I figured you'd appreciate it as much as I did to find another. Cheers.


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## tanstaafl28

FossilMouth said:


> I just found out I'm a 584. I knew I was a 5w4 sx/sp. I discovered the tritype when looking up Daniel Day-Lewis. I made a profile to answer your question. I appreciate reading the replies. I have often wondered if there are others like me, and so, I figured you'd appreciate it as much as I did to find another. Cheers.


FYI, I'm a 584 as well. I enjoy it.


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## tanstaafl28

MeeshkaSkwoz said:


> You mean serial killers that might be 458s or just serial killers in general? In any case, I do find serial killers to be very interesting and I've read a lot about different ones. Some of them are just mind boggling, like Ted Kaczynski and Jeffrey Dahmer (the latter because he's different in a way that I can kinda sympathize with him). But I haven't found one that I can imagine being a 458, or at least I can't remember right now.


Yep, I am interested in them too. That's the point. I don't know that 458s are necessarily serial killers. The point is we don't shy away from dark and unusual topics.


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## Louisiana Kyle

perfectcircle said:


> I heard a rumor we're super rare , and I haven't run into any other of my tri-type on the forum, is there anyone else out there (in any order) of the 548 variety? We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct (and often intense, though perhaps not as much as some like the 864) tri-types. Agree or disagree?
> 
> I'd love to talk about what it's like to be a 854, and hear other person's experiences with being this type, partly to find some peers, partly for interesting reading/get discussion going, and partly to form a better understanding of the tri-type/myself to work into my self-knowledge, but that's irrelevant...
> 
> Does madhatter's collected tri-type descritption of the 458 fit you pretty well? Discuss
> Here it is:


 I am a 584 without a doubt.


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## tanstaafl28

Louisiana Kyle said:


> I am a 584 without a doubt.


Welcome to the party! 


__
https://intj-dictator.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F151491527886


__
https://istj-hedonist.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F142081751283


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## Jokemaster545

Lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala


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## beth x

Such a long (and old) thread about the "rarest" of tritypes. I'm 854.


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## 458

perfectcircle said:


> I heard a rumor we're super rare , and I haven't run into any other of my tri-type on the forum, is there anyone else out there (in any order) of the 548 variety? We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct (and often intense, though perhaps not as much as some like the 864) tri-types. Agree or disagree?
> 
> I'd love to talk about what it's like to be a 854, and hear other person's experiences with being this type, partly to find some peers, partly for interesting reading/get discussion going, and partly to form a better understanding of the tri-type/myself to work into my self-knowledge, but that's irrelevant...
> 
> Does madhatter's collected tri-type descritption of the 458 fit you pretty well? Discuss
> Here it is:


Hey Cynical its cynical


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## 458

Jokemaster545 said:


> 584 here yeah your unique just like everyone else





beth x said:


> Such a long (and old) thread about the "rarest" of tritypes. I'm 854.


Emotions too


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## Narkar

perfectcircle said:


> Wow, we are rare. So far I am the only one!! (the four in me really likes this, quick come prove me wrong and pop my bloated ego).


I see that it took years but you found one ^^


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## hiddenglass

I'd be surprised if there were a single one on this forum tbh


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## Jeanna_and_the_Jets

perfectcircle said:


> I heard a rumor we're super rare , and I haven't run into any other of my tri-type on the forum, is there anyone else out there (in any order) of the 548 variety? We're also supposed to be one of the most dark, analytical, and direct (and often intense, though perhaps not as much as some like the 864) tri-types. Agree or disagree?
> 
> I'd love to talk about what it's like to be a 854, and hear other person's experiences with being this type, partly to find some peers, partly for interesting reading/get discussion going, and partly to form a better understanding of the tri-type/myself to work into my self-knowledge, but that's irrelevant...
> 
> Does madhatter's collected tri-type descritption of the 458 fit you pretty well? Discuss
> Here it is:


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## Jeanna_and_the_Jets

Have you heard of the enneagram 8 podcast. They are looking to find people to interview with the tritype 845.


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## RickMoede

hiddenglass said:


> I'd be surprised if there were a single one on this forum tbh


Sounds like you belong to one of those sad cults of Enneagram idiocy.

sx/so 548


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## jcmoore65

Jeanna_and_the_Jets said:


> Have you heard of the enneagram 8 podcast. They are looking to find people to interview with the tritype 845.


Link? I’m interested if it’s not too late


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## katherine8

In my experience, they exist, and what to be known . Thye arebe ambiverts. If it is a topic they wish to discuss they are very direct and assertive. But if they feel that dont kw enough about a topic they listen...they are not looking for acc39a5ancereally research


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