# Women have no clue how hot other women are.



## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

I asked some of my guy friends to rate some girls I knew from Facebook 1-10. I was usually wrong. Majorly wrong. 

Which is why competition is dumb. That hawt bitch could be fugly as uck, and you just made her life worse. 

The reason women can't tell when a woman is hawt or nawt, is that we don't have dicks. We are neither turned-on nor turned-off by other women's striking femininity or masculinity. What we are attracted to in men is social savviness. So, the more popular women will seem hot to you. They may even be ugly (in fact, that's generally the case). 

Sarah Michelle Gellar, Jennifer Anniston, Drew Barrymore, Gwennyth Paltrow, Kim Kardashian, Angelina Jolie, Zoe Deschannel, Jennifer Garner

How would the other women here rate them?? Give it a shot!


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Waif said:


> So, the more popular women will seem hot to you.


Not really.

Attraction is subjective though, so sure, a woman I'd rate as a 10 (if I rated that way) a guy might find "ugly as fuck."


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Nonsense said:


> Not really.
> 
> Attraction is subjective though, so sure, a woman I'd rate as a 10 (if I rated that way) a guy might find "ugly as fuck."


And you'd do the same for a man...


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Waif said:


> And you'd do the same for a man...


Okay?


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Nonsense said:


> Okay?


Don't act like you've never pow-wowed with your friends about a guy you like or a guy who's "creepy". That's a 1-10 scale. See, it doesn't bite.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Ummm...


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## sockratees (Apr 7, 2015)

Waif said:


> I asked some of my guy friends to rate some girls I knew from Facebook 1-10. I was usually wrong. Majorly wrong.
> 
> Which is why competition is dumb. That hawt bitch could be fugly as uck, and you just made her life worse.
> 
> ...



Yo, Waif, I'm really happy for you, I'ma let you finish, but *Drew Barrymore* is one of the hottest girls of all time.


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## Tezcatlipoca (Jun 6, 2014)

You start off by saying women inaccurately judge attractiveness and then use women's judgement of attractiveness as the benchmark by which to objectively measure.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Tezcatlipoca said:


> You start off by saying women inaccurately judge attractiveness and then use women's judgement of attractiveness as the benchmark by which to objectively measure.
> 
> View attachment 328442


Very funny. I said that women can't tell when other women are hot. That's like the point of my thread.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Hotness is not objective...


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

I'll create a special troll thread for the passive-aggressive crowd to derail.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm sorry for that, but I'm drinking a little and some things just make so little sense I don't know where to begin


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

lycanized said:


> I'm sorry for that, but I'm drinking a little and some things just make so little sense I don't know where to begin


I've just created that thread. Your drunk-ass commentary will be welcome on there. Looking forward to it!


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Waif said:


> I've just created that thread. Your drunk-ass commentary will be welcome on there. Looking forward to it!


I said I was drinking, I didn't say I was drunk, you lightweight


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Also, it's very passive aggressive to create such a thread for passive agressiveness


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## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

are you talking exclusively straight women? i'm bi and i swear i see a woman i find hot every time i go out, attractive men are like rare unicorns. women are just hot, god love 'em.

as for what i'm attracted to in men, it sure isn't social savviness. too many assumptions OP!


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

lycanized said:


> I said I was drinking, I didn't say I was drunk, you lightweight


You're fucking drunk.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Waif said:


> You're fucking drunk.


Oh how I wish


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

mhysa said:


> are you talking exclusively straight women? i'm bi and i swear i see a woman i find hot every time i go out, attractive men are like rare unicorns. women are just hot, god love 'em.
> 
> as for what i'm attracted to in men, it sure isn't social savviness. too many assumptions OP!


Yeah, it's mostly a straight women thing. I don't know how bi-women view other women. Maybe it's somewhere in-between the way straight men and straight women view women, or maybe it varies. I'm not looking to have an in-depth discussion about this on my thread. I'm just trying to make the point that there's no reason for women to be jealous of other women.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

lycanized said:


> Oh how I wish


Why? Did you have a frazzling day?


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Waif said:


> Why? Did you have a frazzling day?


Hey, might as well pull-up a chair and share all about it on my thread.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Waif said:


> Why? Did you have a frazzling day?


I have a frazzling life


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

lycanized said:


> I have a frazzling life


Well, it's always a good idea to make sure that you're not causing some of that on your own.


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## Oreki (May 12, 2015)

I agree with you on competition.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Waif said:


> Well, it's always a good idea to make sure that you're not causing some of that on your own.


There is always a mix of external and internal. You can't control the external no matter how much you want to


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

lycanized said:


> There is always a mix of external and internal. You can't control the external no matter how much you want to


I generally manage to. The key is to use your willpower and to not get tied-down by other people's opinions of you. It's very internally and externally freeing.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Oreki said:


> I agree with you on competition.


Yes, but the point of this thread is that the women you see in Hollywood aren't as hot as you think they are.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Waif said:


> I generally manage to. The key is to use your willpower and to not get tied-down by other people's opinions of you. It's very internally and externally freeing.


Well, I think mainly I'm a person who tends towards a feeling of futility, and that's been something I've had to battle with


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## Oreki (May 12, 2015)

Waif said:


> I'm just trying to make the point that there's no reason for women to be jealous of other women.


That's what I was referring to but I agree with you about Hollywood as well.


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## Juggernaut (Jul 9, 2012)

Waif said:


> Yeah, it's mostly a straight women thing. I don't know how bi-women view other women. Maybe it's somewhere in-between the way straight men and straight women view women, or maybe it varies. I'm not looking to have an in-depth discussion about this on my thread. I'm just trying to make the point that there's no reason for women to be jealous of other women.


So is the thread more about giving advice and you don't want anyone to post?

I'm confused.

This whole thread and everyone's replies are confusing.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Waif said:


> Don't act like you've never pow-wowed with your friends about a guy you like or a guy who's "creepy". That's a 1-10 scale. See, it doesn't bite.


Okay. 



Edit: Whether I've "pow-wowed" with my friends about such things or not is besides the point, though. My point is that I don't find myself judging a woman's attractiveness based on her popularity.


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## EndsOfTheEarth (Mar 14, 2015)

There's so many shades of spurious argument in the OP. Too many in fact for me to bother picking it apart.


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## yentipeee (Jun 19, 2013)

Waif said:


> I asked some of my guy friends to rate some girls I knew from Facebook 1-10. I was usually wrong. Majorly wrong.
> 
> Which is why competition is dumb. That hawt bitch could be fugly as uck, and you just made her life worse.
> 
> ...



It's true, women don't understand male arousal, (and vice versa, I suppose). Nature has seen to it that we all have a blind spot in that area. I don't think it's the dicks though, dicks are blind and stoopid.


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

Juggernaut said:


> So is the thread more about giving advice and you don't want anyone to post?
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> This whole thread and everyone's replies are confusing.



Welcome to Narnia, biotch (I'm the juggernaut bitch, reference).


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

yentipeee said:


> It's true, women don't understand male arousal, (and vice versa, I suppose). Nature has seen to it that we all have a blind spot in that area. I don't think it's the dicks though, dicks are blind and stoopid.



not necessarily, a dick pees and does sexual stuff, that's not stupid, that's multitasking. Nothing that can multitask is stupid.


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

InSolitude said:


> There's so many shades of spurious argument in the OP. Too many in fact for me to bother picking it apart.



Thus you remain in Solitude.


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

Nonsense said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Whether I've "pow-wowed" with my friends about such things or not is besides the point, though. My point is that I don't find myself judging a woman's attractiveness based on her popularity.



If you were ever in high school, you would've, but being in a school of fish, how could you? Nonsense


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

I just ultra-trolled this thread, put a tombstone on it, my work is done.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

I'll shoot, anyway. I think women do know which are considered attractive, not only by the culture around them, but by who receives the most attention. Very few people are a 0 on the scale by everyone's standards, and you don't even have to be "queen bee" to have competition. Someone joked that a misogynist is a man who hates women as much as women hate one another, and from what little I've seen and experienced, there is truth to that. In fact, it's one reason I find female friendships more interesting in the long-run.

Anyway, it has nothing to do with having a dick or not. I think what's considered "hot" in say, the lesbian community, is going to be different than what straight guys are into. Women do seem to put more emphasis on connection and personality, while guys notice and bring up physical traits, first. Another observation: I've yet to meet a lesbian who considered breast implants a turn-on. All preferred natural.


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## EndsOfTheEarth (Mar 14, 2015)

Pseudonymity said:


> I just ultra-trolled this thread, put a tombstone on it, my work is done.


I'll wait until you pop up in the infraction sub forum before I'll give you notoriety for trolling. Seemed a pretty weak effort.


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

Waif said:


> I'll create a special troll thread for the passive-aggressive crowd to derail.


Passive-aggressive?

I don't think you know what that means.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Women do seem to put more emphasis on connection and personality, while guys notice and bring up physical traits, first. Another observation: I've yet to meet a lesbian who considered breast implants a turn-on. All preferred natural.


Would that correlate to which part of the brain is the most active in an individual ? I'm personally very very much turned on by gentle souls which are gracious and know how to be sensual ... usually their body / aura reflect that naturally. Nobody need to be a hottie, its all happening inside and reflected outside. Physical traits do not really matter apart one that I couldn't deal with. 

Was askin for the part of brain because I'm pretty right sided and these "criterias" I got are not "usual" among men

Edit : of course, that would totally be applied to the cognitive functions. Maybe we could do a thread that would verify that theory, combinin type and most active part of the brain, would be interesting.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

I am more attracted to women physically, I mean I wouldn't turn my head to double check a guy but some girls, I just can't keep my eyes off. This is truly defying to my ideals of not being objectified and my views on the soul beauty and stuff. Maybe because I am not very romantically involved so I can be more objectifying with physical aspects of girls, with boys I am not like that. Also my attraction to boys are much more of smarts and personality while I seem to have very shallow likings for girls. Say, I love complicated, deep and authentic characters like Rust Cohle of True Detective when I am not attracted to the looks at all, I find him very charming and hot but with the girls my mind is not much different than a little boy I suppose. Well still not the typical sensors or anything that plastic.

But yes, I get what Op is trying to say, although I am not much intrigued by -hotness- only I can see that what I see as hot in females is a manufactured and aggressive kind of hotness and can be off putting for some males.

I love Zoey Deschannel but oh my god, could she be more shallow? Her facebook posts make me wanna die, very superficial under the covers of body-image posts and -activist- gibberish really. I totally had a crush on her only to be let down.

I think angelina jolie -used to- be very sexy and hot but I can see a lot of guys being turned off by the psycho chick image that plays with knives and draws blood and is always super sexy and luscious

I bet every guy vote up for sarah michelle gellar lol I dunno what is so special about the girl -really. Guys, she is not Buffy, she is just a character.

I think Katy Perry is totally hot, such a sensor but she is an optimal creation of dorkiness and hot, I mean look at the face, she looks stunning in her on purpose sexy photoshoots and quite dorky in others. 

I always thought if I was a guy I would prolly be attracted to Shakira, that is as female as it goes for me and she doesn't seem shallow underneath it all.

Gwennyth Paltrow - I think she must have more girl fans than boys.

But what do I know what guys like, they seem to be really into passive, submissive, needy, less intimidating, girly girls even when they say they like strong and powerful women. 

Share your findings


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## Mr.Venture (Dec 25, 2011)

SilverFalcon said:


> Well you may challenge it or not care at all. Do you think they don't care or that they follow the gospel?


Sorta like Hotes said, I can tell at a glance who will be determined "conventionally attractive" since that doesn't change nearly as much as people think. But each generation (since flower power?) has been trying to redefine beauty on their own terms, and in that sense appearance serves a social function. People's appearance says something about what they _value_ and where they come from, and that's at least as much a determinant of how attractive they become to another person. I'd hazard a guess that, as we've learned to deconstructed standards of beauty, the level of discourse has risen around it - but beauty will always be measured about what it says about the person and what they mean to us (e.g. they're health-conscious, they're fashion forward, we're in love with them,etc.)

Do I think the younger generation cares less or more? I think the younger generation is just plain younger. It takes a certain amount of experience to really start believing that physical appearance has a limited scope and appeal. I used to get "enthralled" when a good lookin' woman was attracted to me - and I think that was more just a matter of how it related to my personal sense of status. Luckily, I've also always been willing to go on a few dates with women who I felt might have other things to offer too, and I've had enough experiences there to find some balance in the whole mess.

If I like someone well-enough, the reasons for liking them will take care of themselves. If I don't like someone, that'll sort itself out too. that takes about three dates worth of time for me, which has been true just about my whole dating life. I usually work from the assumption that what's true for me is true for other people too. If it ain't, then I'd be curious why people feel it's different for them.

Hell, wouldn't we get further on this if people talked about their personal experience instead of generalizations?


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Waif said:


> I asked some of my guy friends to rate some girls I knew from Facebook 1-10. I was usually wrong. Majorly wrong.
> 
> Which is why competition is dumb. That hawt bitch could be fugly as uck, and you just made her life worse.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. But this situation arises due to the ambiguity of both language and feeling. 

If we were to scientifically describe beauty down to the nth degree and also have a panel of artists involved in their judgements we could all get so very much closer to some meaningful description. 

But beauty in terms of a virtue is derived merely from uniqueness and authenticity. In such a sense there can be no ugly. It only takes wisdom to recognize this truth. The conflation of sexual desire or popularity or any other MIXING of virtues with that of fundamental beauty only confuses us as to what the term really means.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Seems to me the OP was simply saying, "If you're a hetero female, stop wasting your energy hating on women who you think are super hot and are taking all the guys/attention away from you... cause you're probably wrong about who it is guys think are hot anyway."

Not sure what's so "WTF" about that... seems like a pretty clear case of "if the shoe fits" to me.


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## Kelleth (May 11, 2015)

lycanized said:


> Hotness is not objective...


Tell that to feminists...


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Kelleth said:


> Tell that to feminists...


I don't believe the objectivity/subjectivity of hotness is an important concept in feminism


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## Kelleth (May 11, 2015)

Fair enough.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Waif said:


> *Women have no clue how hot other women are*


True, but regarding what? hot for other women? or hot for men? Over the years it's been fun (and sometimes boring) to see how women rate other women FOR US men. A lot of women in fact dress for other women (competition or whatever) not exactly to attract men, or perhaps to attract men but having confused standards from start.

There are two magazines (worked on a media company for more than a decade) and women selected the models and photos for the women-magazine, most of those like 90% were boring to us men. Then tried to select the pictures of women for the MALE-magazine, what a big total fail, they were even more boring, in fact the magazine failed 3 times until now they have a male editor, a lot of money was wasted and it's not a small company.





Waif said:


> I asked some of my guy friends to rate some girls I knew from Facebook 1-10. I was usually wrong. Majorly wrong.
> 
> Which is why competition is dumb.


Well yes, a lot of diff guys will rate differently diff women, competition... doesn't really make sense, specially when they try to compete trying to look as some weird standard., like the han solo look, it quickly became boring and a total joke among men.


Over the years, diff group of male friends, it's very common for us to go out and ASK "what about that one?" and we all give ratings, sometimes we agree, many times by some small gap and other times we just disagree and each one likes and rates as hot very diff women.



Waif said:


> *Women have no clue how hot *_other women _*THEY are*


Many feel ugly no matter what you tell them, some women are so hot but they treat themselves as if they don't like themselves. It applies to thin and fat women (yes, fat, I'm fucking tired of that being taken as an insult or forced to use non-thin, a lot of fat women are pretty just as many thin women are pretty, period).


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## marbleous (Feb 21, 2014)

This whole thread is really...silly!

How you are defining "hottness" is different from what I'd define as "attractive" or "beautiful." You have qualified who can judge "hotness" as "having a d***", so basically your definition of "hotness" is the ease of the woman to please the male genitalia. This usually has little do do with aesthetics and more to do with advertising that you are open to sex.

In fact, I would argue that women have a better perception of attractiveness because they do not have male genitalia and are not distracted by sexual urges and wants and can better appreciate the thought that went into aesthetic choices.

So in conclusion, I would rank a woman's compliment on my attractiveness above a male's sexually charged compliment.

And it should go without being said that people should dress to please themselves, not other people, male or female.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

marbleous said:


> This whole thread is really...silly!
> 
> How you are defining "hottness" is different from what I'd define as "attractive" or "beautiful." You have qualified who can judge "hotness" as "having a d***", so basically your definition of "hotness" is the ease of the woman to please the male genitalia. This usually has little do do with aesthetics and more to do with advertising that you are open to sex.
> 
> ...


It's actually a valid and positive discussion point, and you're shitting on it.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

LostFavor said:


> Seems to me the OP was simply saying, "If you're a hetero female, stop wasting your energy hating on women who you think are super hot and are taking all the guys/attention away from you... cause you're probably wrong about who it is guys think are hot anyway."
> 
> Not sure what's so "WTF" about that... seems like a pretty clear case of "if the shoe fits" to me.


Thanks! I thought I was being straight-forward. Maybe people just want to navel-gaze? I dunno.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Snakecharmer said:


> Passive-aggressive?
> 
> I don't think you know what that means.


^ Like, for example, this post.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

So just because you're bad at quantifying the attraction of a limited number of a female's attractiveness as compared to a couple dude friends, this automatically means _*all *_women do this!

Of course. Silly me.

Way to extrapolate dat data, girl! ;D Keep up the good work.


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## marbleous (Feb 21, 2014)

Waif said:


> It's actually a valid and positive discussion point, and you're shitting on it.


If that's what you call having a differing opinion. I'm open to other perspectives.


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## ForHonorAndGlory (May 5, 2015)

This thread's title - so much promise.

This thread in actuality...



















For the record, I believe that physical attraction is subjective from individual to individual, not from sex to sex. Otherwise everyone's opinions on everyone else's looks would be unanimous - which they aren't. The fact that some women like other women defeats your hypothesis that women have no idea how hot other women are.

In the end, like who you like, think ugly who you think ugly, and let the rest of the world like who they like and think ugly who they think ugly. Otherwise you'll end up trying to figure out why he likes who he doesn't like and why she likes who he likes and why she thinks ugly who he likes and he thinks ugly who she likes, etc., etc. Why he likes who she doesn't and she likes who he doesn't is something that makes absolutely no sense, and the more you think about it and try to figure it out, the more confusing it'll be. Everyone just kinda judges whoever however they like according to their own aesthetic values. 

Btw, if anyone understood that second paragraph from the last Bilbo, I'm gonna send you a bunch of Internet air kisses and admire your intelligence forever and ever.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

changos said:


> True, but regarding what? hot for other women? or hot for men? Over the years it's been fun (and sometimes boring) to see how women rate other women FOR US men. A lot of women in fact dress for other women (competition or whatever) not exactly to attract men, or perhaps to attract men but having confused standards from start.
> 
> There are two magazines (worked on a media company for more than a decade) and women selected the models and photos for the women-magazine, most of those like 90% were boring to us men. Then tried to select the pictures of women for the MALE-magazine, what a big total fail, they were even more boring, in fact the magazine failed 3 times until now they have a male editor, a lot of money was wasted and it's not a small company.
> 
> ...


Right. As I was saying, women (tend to, not 100% of the time, but 96% of the time) perceive other women to be hot the way they perceive men to be hot. The one who is the popular, life of the party, engaging, successful one is "hot" in the eyes of most women. 

Gwen Paltrow was rated a 6. Angelina Jolie was rated a 7. They have features that most men don't like, but are currently "trending" for women: large jaw, no body fat, wide mouth, etc. The reason women like the look of celebrities is because they are celebrities. Any article of clothing they wear is also "hot". Any facial characteristic is "hot" as well. And that's how societal norms for beauty, in my opinion, get set.

Now, the way a man perceives beauty 95.5% of the time, because there are slightly more gay males than straight ones, and this long spiel is irrelevant to the topic, is, not to be crude, "the boner test". Obviously, if the sight of a woman is arousing, he's aroused, therefore, she's hot. Maybe she's not his true love. Maybe she is. I don't personally care. 

Obviously, a woman can grow on a guy over time and yada yada yada. 

As to the part about men perceiving women differently,yes, I've noticed that. The norm is for most guys to be in consensus about a woman's look, with the exception of one guy who either thinks she's the most gorgeous woman he's ever seen or Scooby's sister. When one half of the room thinks a woman is a 5 and another half thinks she's a 7, that's exotic. OKCupid did a study that showed an exotic woman will get more attention than another woman of the same number. So, if an exotic woman is a 5-7, she'll do better than a typical 7. 

About women feeling "ugly", yes, most women have mood-swings. One day, they'll feel hot. The next, they'll feel ugly. It pretty much evens-out. You have to keep in mind that "ugly", to a woman, usually has to do with how well a woman's hair is done and what she's wearing, and maybe how tan she is. Most well-dressed women will_ feel _hotter than most poorly-dressed women. 

I was surprised to learn that men don't care about overweightness in general. Even if it's in the face. They care more about how the fat lays on the body. If you have a full hour-glass, you can get away with being a few extra pounds. If it all goes to the top or all goes to your hips, you can't get away with it as easily. If you're relatively thin, but it all goes in one place, you have to stay thinner than someone with an hourglass figure. So, being skinny isn't the ideal, per se. Having a smooth body is the ideal. Which is why debates about weight are also stupid. Just be healthy, and you'll look fine. 

Finally, men don't care about the body nearly as much as they care about the face. However, the face is the hardest thing for me to rate. The concept of the body, I get, but to me, one woman who is not hot will often look the same as someone who is hot. There are certain nuances that I'm not picking-up on. There's no one feature that makes a hot face. Hollywood will tell you that a small nose and full lips are what every man desires. Actually, most men won't notice if a woman has a long nose or a hook nose or a bump on their nose. Most men don't care if a woman has pretty thin lips. Again, there's no one facial feature that makes a woman "hot". It's a big picture thing, and I don't have eyes for the picture.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

WamphyriThrall said:


> I'll shoot, anyway. I think women do know which are considered attractive, not only by the culture around them, but by who receives the most attention. Very few people are a 0 on the scale by everyone's standards, and you don't even have to be "queen bee" to have competition. Someone joked that a misogynist is a man who hates women as much as women hate one another, and from what little I've seen and experienced, there is truth to that. In fact, it's one reason I find female friendships more interesting in the long-run.
> 
> Anyway, it has nothing to do with having a dick or not. I think what's considered "hot" in say, the lesbian community, is going to be different than what straight guys are into. Women do seem to put more emphasis on connection and personality, while guys notice and bring up physical traits, first. Another observation: I've yet to meet a lesbian who considered breast implants a turn-on. All preferred natural.


1. Attractive women don't necessarily get more attention than non-attractive women. In appearances, anyway. I haven't met a single guy who agrees with me on this point, but it's so, so true. It's how you play the game, how long you've lived in Boringsville, Midwest, etc.

2. "Someone joked that a misogynist is a man who hates women as much as women hate one another, and from what little I've seen and experienced, there is truth to that." This is absolutely true. To be a woman is to live in a crab bucket. Many women have no contrition about ruining another woman's life or career. In fact, this is the norm. Now, consider what you said earlier about "the hot girls get all the attention" in this light. It's not really the hot girls, but the ones who play the game well. They're able to fix things that way. 

3. A Lesbian dick wants different things than a straight-male dick. There is, blah blah blah, obviously some exception to the rule... blaaahhh...


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

nichya said:


> I am more attracted to women physically, I mean I wouldn't turn my head to double check a guy but some girls, I just can't keep my eyes off. This is truly defying to my ideals of not being objectified and my views on the soul beauty and stuff. Maybe because I am not very romantically involved so I can be more objectifying with physical aspects of girls, with boys I am not like that. Also my attraction to boys are much more of smarts and personality while I seem to have very shallow likings for girls. Say, I love complicated, deep and authentic characters like Rust Cohle of True Detective when I am not attracted to the looks at all, I find him very charming and hot but with the girls my mind is not much different than a little boy I suppose. Well still not the typical sensors or anything that plastic.
> 
> But yes, I get what Op is trying to say, although I am not much intrigued by -hotness- only I can see that what I see as hot in females is a manufactured and aggressive kind of hotness and can be off putting for some males.
> 
> ...


Wow. Yeah, you really know your shit. :kitteh:

Zoe - 6.5
AJ - 7
SMG - 8
KP - 6/7
GP - 6

Here are some others:

Jennifer Anniston: 7.5
Kim Kardashian - 7-8

Most women in Hollywood are a little above average in looks. What people consider "really hot" tends to be "cute". 

Most women in real life are fives. So, about 50-60% of every woman you know is a five, not averaged a five. But. Five is cute and attractive to most men.

Oh, and a side-note: nearly everyone thinks Zoe's attractive. She's mastered the art of girl-game. And the lingerie she wears is incredibly cute.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Waif said:


> Wow. Yeah, you really know your shit. :kitteh:
> 
> Zoe - 6.5
> AJ - 7
> ...


woah really sarah michelle gellar case needs to be investigated. I don't know, unless a whole nation's boys are starstruck by the tv series I just don't see how special she is really. She looks like every other girl in USA in my opinion but I can see that she is at an optimal point of cute and hot, smart and not intimidating, probably looks like every other guy's mom when they were young, very homely but fictionally kick-ass, chic but not edgy, pretty but not over the top pretty which feels safe.. I have no idea about her real personality to be honest.

Interesting point about exotic as well, I can see exotic being very -Very- trendy, then I think, well..in near future exotic can be the norm really, by the looks of it.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

nichya said:


> woah really sarah michelle gellar case needs to be investigated. I don't know, unless a whole nation's boys are starstruck by the tv series I just don't see how special she is really. She looks like every other girl in USA in my opinion but I can see that she is at an optimal point of cute and hot, smart and not intimidating, probably looks like every other guy's mom when they were young, very homely but fictionally kick-ass, chic but not edgy, pretty but not over the top pretty which feels safe.. I have no idea about her real personality to be honest.
> 
> Interesting point about exotic as well, I can see exotic being very -Very- trendy, then I think, well..in near future exotic can be the norm really, by the looks of it.


No, that's what I mean. I don't see what's so special about SMG. But she's apparently an 8 in the face (an 8 is guy-lingo for "hot"). 

To me, she looks like every other girl. And every other girl looks like her. I don't necessarily doubt that there is something about her face that makes her hot, but to me, it's invisible. Think of it this way, Melissa Joan Hart was a whole point less attractive than her. To me, there's no difference.


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## Somniorum (Oct 7, 2010)

So, I get the basic assertion that (straight) women have a hard time judging the attractiveness of other women, which seems to make a bit of sense since straight women aren't attracted to women, so... one would assume you could say similar about straight men's ability to determine the attractiveness of other men. I'm not sure if I'm all aboard about the whole "women judge attractiveness based off popularity" stuff, but whatever, I wouldn't be surprised if it applied for some.

Perhaps more interestingly, rather than just stating this, why not make a couple threads that survey things up - make one for (specifically straight) women to judge women (put up pictures of maybe ten or so of varying sorts), and then another thread of (straight) men judging men (same, maybe ten pictures of varying guys). In the thread, have the women and men do their ratings, tally them up and make an average for each one showing the average perception of heterosexual women's perception of women/men vs the heterosexual men's perception of women/men. See if there's any correlation or not. Could be interesting, might have surprising results. 

(incidentally, I have no intention of making these threads and mathing up the results : P But if someone else is really interested, go for it)

(I also do recognise that Waif did a little of this by mentioning a bunch of women and asking women to rate it, but the men were all just her friends specifically - we might have a broader cultural spectrum of men and women here than exists in her specific friend-group though, and besides, the idea of having straight men judge other men wasn't mentioned at all)


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

@lycanized "I said drinking not drunk, you lightweight"

That was really funny. 

Also the more you think about attractiveness, the more inauthentic it is. Dropping the scale of 1-10 altogether is the best way to remove your beer goggles that are obviously more blurry than the drinking lycanized girl's eyes. 

Admire and savor, dont categorize. I actually agree with "women shouldn't judge other women based on how they perceive their attractiveness," but NOT because they suck at it (I think that may just be you), but because they have their own individual beauty which is more worthy of attention. Why are so many women in competition? You just can't compare. People are different, not greater or lesser. I thought overcoming racism basically taught that...


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

By the way, as a straight male, I know how good looking other men are because I look at them too!!! Yes, I see the same thing as women (omg who would have that that eyes were like that!?)

Im also pretty good at finding out what attracts women, so I definitely don't agree with "women don't understand men and men don't understand women" logic.


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## Reluctanine (May 11, 2014)

Waif said:


> The reason women can't tell when a woman is hawt or nawt, is that we don't have dicks.


I think there’s some basis to this, though probably for a more biological reason.

Humans, like other biological beings, have the innate drive to procreate. Men are hardwired to spread their seed as far and wide as possible with their almost unlimited sperm, since that increases their chances of having progeny. So, it makes sense that they would find a larger deviation of women attractive and have more varied tastes.

Women, on the other hand, are the ones who have to carry the child to term, so they are also hardwired to find only a small selection of men attractive, since they have much more limited fertile time, and child-bearing eggs. 

Basically, women just have to show that they’re healthy enough to carry a child to term, which until recent medical advances, was a very big factor in mate selection. Men usually have to signify that they have the resources to take care of any child produced. So, physically stronger, richer, socially connected/higher status and more intelligent males.

We’re judging attractiveness through different lenses because of our biology.


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## Juggernaut (Jul 9, 2012)

This is a Ti's nightmare. The next time someone asks me "What do Ti-users hate?" it will be all the reasoning within this thread.

I'm going to put as much logical order into this and save this thread because there is an interesting thought brewing.



> The reason women can't tell when a woman is hawt or nawt, is that we don't have dicks.


First define 'hawt' and 'nawt.'
If referring to general physical attraction: No. General physical attraction is entirely subjective. (There are, of course, biological factors.)
If you disagree. Sources other than anecdotal evidence.

If you are referring to what we find sexually desirable based on our hardware for procreating. For the most part, yes. (Again, there are factors. I saw you mentioning them.) 




> We are neither turned-on nor turned-off by other women's striking femininity or masculinity. What we are attracted to in men is social savviness. So, the more popular women will seem hot to you. They may even be ugly (in fact, that's generally the case).


No. This is nothing more than sexist generalization. Envy (and the realization the person is blown out of proportion) is a common reason for women (people in general) to dislike celebrities. We are not animals that act on instinct alone. Reasoning + emotions = a beautiful thing.



> I'm not looking to have an in-depth discussion about this on my thread. I'm just trying to make the point that there's no reason for women to be jealous of other women.


You come into my house, the day of which I get no sleep. Post on my forums, and then don't want to talk about it? The nerve.
:wink:



> _"If you're a hetero female, stop wasting your energy hating on women who you think are super hot and are taking all the guys/attention away from you... cause you're probably wrong about who it is guys think are hot anyway."_


Yes, but your justification is flawed. This is also an opinion/advice not an actual fact.



> Right. As I was saying, women (tend to, not 100% of the time, but 96% of the time) perceive other women to be hot the way they perceive men to be hot. The one who is the popular, life of the party, engaging, successful one is "hot" in the eyes of most women.


Again source that isn't anecdotal. I will hear your justifications with OKCupid, but as far as using it to be able to say "Most men will.. based on OKCupid." No. 



> "Most men" "Men dont" "Men will"


Source that isn't anecdotal.



> 3. A Lesbian dick wants different things than a straight-male dick. There is, blah blah blah, obviously some exception to the rule... blaaahhh...


Everyone's dick wants their own thing. Female, male, gay, straight, asexual, nongendered.



> Yes, but the point of this thread is that the women you see in Hollywood aren't as hot as you think they are.


The appearance of a woman is purely subjective.

This whole post was: "Women shouldn't judge other women or base their own appearance upon another woman because a man will ultimately decide their attraction. Here's anecdotal evidence. I don't want a discussion."

Was literally kept up all night because of the thought process in this thread. I thought I'd make sense of it. Please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong or missing information.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Juggernaut said:


> This is a Ti's nightmare. The next time someone asks me "What do Ti-users hate?" it will be all the reasoning within this thread.
> 
> I'm going to put as much logical order into this and save this thread because there is an interesting thought brewing.
> 
> ...


My best friend is actually an INTP, and he appreciates my thought-process. So, it's not the Ti. I think you're just conditioned to believe a certain set of principles, and feel somehow threatened when they're flipped on their head and questioned.

Another thing to consider is that I never write presenting the entire burden of evidence. I only write to open-minded people, and to people who pay attention to the comings and goings of everyday life. I present a different way of looking at things, and enjoy teasing an idea. It intrigues me that humans know so little about humans, myself included. We have the conscious, which we interact with, and we have the unconscious, unknown, instinctive part of us, which is a mystery. Who really knows why we do what we do? For example, when you see birds doing a mating dance, do they know they're doing a mating dance? Do we do something similar, and not see it? There are so many things about ourselves that we don't understand. It's like a blind man realizing that he's blind, and then trying to learn what sight is. You can never fully comprehend that side of yourself, but you might be able to get the idea of it, if you ask the right questions and pay attention.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Waif said:


> So, the more popular women will seem hot to you.


I disagree with this LOL. Usually, the most attractive women have dealt with being ostracized to a degree (jealousy) by both sides in my experience. Growing up, a lot of the more popular girls I knew were fairly average, and needed that status to strong arm people into thinking otherwise. Which, whatever, power to them. I guess that's kinda hot energetically or something.



Waif said:


> Sarah Michelle Gellar, Jennifer Anniston, Drew Barrymore, Gwennyth Paltrow, Kim Kardashian, Angelina Jolie, Zoe Deschannel, Jennifer Garner
> 
> How would the other women here rate them?? Give it a shot!


Sarah Michelle Gellar, Jennifer Aniston, Drew Barrymore, Gwyneth Paltrow, Zoe Deschennel = Girl hot

Kim Kardashian, Angelina Jolie = Guy hot

Jennifer Garner = Up for grabs

But then, I think Kim and Angelina have entered the "overrated" category of ladies who begin to fall out of "guy hot" favor because they're no longer a novelty. Kind of like when the internet did a Megan Fox ban or something for a day. So there are probably better examples, but those were the choices


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Veggie said:


> I can't even stress enough how much I disagree with this LOL. Usually, the most attractive women have dealt with being ostracized to a degree (jealousy) by both sides in my experience. Growing up, a lot of the more popular girls I knew were fairly average, and needed that status to strong arm people into thinking otherwise. Which, whatever, power to them. I guess that's kinda hot energetically or something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"I can't even stress enough how much I disagree with this LOL. Usually, the most attractive women have dealt with being ostracized to a degree (jealousy) by both sides in my experience. Growing up, a lot of the more popular girls I knew were fairly average, and needed that status to strong arm people into thinking otherwise. Which, whatever, power to them. I guess that's kinda hot energetically or something."

Giiiirl, _what_ are we disagreeing about? 

Lol, I guess there's girl-game, which is pretty legit. And then there's what you're not seeing, which is the bad-mouthing. 90% of their success typically has to do with cutting-down prettier women in some way, shape or form. It's not so much an average girl going from rags to riches as it is mercenary social-climbing, while playing innocent. 

Here's the secret, though: the natural advantage that a prettier woman has, is that men tend to associate physical attractiveness with moral goodness. If you think about it, this fluke has protected the survival of our species. If it weren't for this fluke, there wouldn't be so many attractive women walking around, and what would be left is a group of really, really ridiculously not good-looking women and no babies. So, what you do if you're cute is not waste your time with female cliques: try your hand at social-networking through men, instead of climbing the ranks of women who want you to fail. If you're less-attractive, it's to your advantage to be in the hub of female cliques. It's your opportunity to work your way up. 

SMG is actually guy-hot. 

Jennifer Anniston. Hm. I suppose she falls into the same category as Kim K, which is 7.5. That's kind of a sweet spot. Seven is girl-next-door cute, eight is hot. So, 7.5 gets a man's attention, but also seems achievable. Both JA and KK have widespread fame... I guess they could also be both guy and girl hot. 

Brittany Spears: 8. Total babe, both ways. Men want to be with her, women want to be... with her. 

Jennifer Garner and Angelina Jolie are both sevens. Not quite hot, but attractive. Most female celebrities are either sixes or sevens. Reese, Rihanna, Tay Swifty, etc.

Other than that, you're pretty much right! Zoe's considered attractive, but not because she's good-looking. Although, come to think of it, she's like a hipster 9.

Example of girl-hot: Jennifer Lawrence. She's like a six. The guy-hot Jennifer is Lopez.


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## imaphoenix (Sep 11, 2012)

Waif said:


> Yes, but the point of this thread is that the women you see in Hollywood aren't as hot as you think they are.


Yeah that's obvious, I thought most people knew that. Not all, but most women in Hollywood are only hot because of a variety of factors - access to expensive beauty treatments (including but not limited to plastic surgery), they have personal stylists (clothes, hair, makeup etc.) we all know that makeup, hair and clothes can do wonders IRL, just image when you have money and help of professionals to always look your best. And then there is always image trickery - Photoshop, lighting, camera angles, etc.

These women are just plain ugly, but due to 'hollywood help' they are passable (think fools gold)
Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, Sarah Jessica Parker, Chole Sevigny, Tori Spelling

These women are not ugly but they are just average, but "hollywood help" makes them "beautiful".
Jennifer Aniston, Drew Berrymore, Gweneth Paltrow, Scarlet Johansson, Eva Longoria
Hell even Jennifer Lopez is average looking at best - her ass is what made her famous.

That goes to show that beauty is flexible, anyone can be "designed" to show their best self.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

imaphoenix said:


> Yeah that's obvious, I thought most people knew that. Not all, but most women in Hollywood are only hot because of a variety of factors - access to expensive beauty treatments (including but not limited to plastic surgery), they have personal stylists (clothes, hair, makeup etc.) we all know that makeup, hair and clothes can do wonders IRL, just image when you have money and help of professionals to always look your best. And then there is always image trickery - Photoshop, lighting, camera angles, etc.
> 
> These women are just plain ugly, but due to 'hollywood help' they are passable (think fools gold)
> Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, Sarah Jessica Parker, Chole Sevigny, Tori Spelling
> ...


Nobody thinks Parker is hot. In what universe does someone think she's hot? Haven't you ever seen Sex and the City? She's a pump and dump. That show's all about how Bigs is trying to run away from her, in the Kenneth Branaugh version.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Waif said:


> "I can't even stress enough how much I disagree with this LOL. Usually, the most attractive women have dealt with being ostracized to a degree (jealousy) by both sides in my experience. Growing up, a lot of the more popular girls I knew were fairly average, and needed that status to strong arm people into thinking otherwise. Which, whatever, power to them. I guess that's kinda hot energetically or something."
> 
> Giiiirl, _what_ are we disagreeing about?


Lol, you post quoted what I originally wrote before I was like, um, I don't really feel that strongly about this, and edit.

My go to opinions tend to be more dramatic than I mean them to be.



Waif said:


> Lol, I guess there's girl-game, which is pretty legit. And then there's what you're not seeing, which is the bad-mouthing. 90% of their success typically has to do with cutting-down prettier women in some way, shape or form. It's not so much an average girl going from rags to riches as it is mercenary social-climbing, while playing innocent.


No, I see this 1000% lol. That was my point. I've never felt the need to cut down the women I actually see as competition. I've always wanted to be their friends and maximize on the fun. I don't know if that makes me attractive, but I have noticed the opposite in chicas I'm not particularly impressed by.



Waif said:


> Here's the secret, though: the natural advantage that a prettier woman has, is that men tend to associate physical attractiveness with moral goodness.


Lol, that's not an advantage. It's a curse. The dreaded pedestal. 



Waif said:


> If you think about it, this fluke has protected the survival of our species. If it weren't for this fluke, there wouldn't be so many attractive women walking around, and what would be left is a group of really, really ridiculously not good-looking women and no babies. So, what you do if you're cute is not waste your time with female cliques: try your hand at social-networking through men, instead of climbing the ranks of women who want you to fail. If you're less-attractive, it's to your advantage to be in the hub of female cliques. It's your opportunity to work your way up.


Nah. Just find a clique of super cool ladies. They're out there.



Waif said:


> SMG is actually guy-hot.


I mean I feel like it's not factual either way, haha, I just thought it would be fun to contribute. But yea, she might more fit the Jennifer Garner category, thinking about it. I knew someone who had known her in person, and all she could talk about was her "bobble head" which was a very non-girl hot way to approach talking about her.



Waif said:


> Jennifer Anniston. Hm. I suppose she falls into the same category as Kim K, which is 7.5. That's kind of a sweet spot. Seven is girl-next-door cute, eight is hot. So, 7.5 gets a man's attention, but also seems achievable. Both JA and KK have widespread fame... I guess they could also be both guy and girl hot.


No way Jennifer Aniston and Kim Kardashian are in the same category, or that Kim is "girl next door cute" lol.



Waif said:


> Brittany Spears: 8. Total babe, both ways. Men want to be with her, women want to be... with her.


Britney is one of the loves of my life.



Waif said:


> Jennifer Garner and Angelina Jolie are both sevens. Not quite hot, but attractive. Most female celebrities are either sixes or sevens. Reese, Rihanna, Tay Swifty, etc.


Definitely hot.



Waif said:


> Other than that, you're pretty much right! Zoe's considered attractive, but not because she's good-looking. Although, come to think of it, she's like a hipster 9.


I know dudes who are into her, but, yea, they more tend to fit the hipster category 



Waif said:


> Example of girl-hot: Jennifer Lawrence. She's like a six. The guy-hot Jennifer is Lopez.


I could agree with this. I wouldn't call Jennifer Lawrence a six though. She's at Least a seven or eight. Who are these 7,8,9 and 10's otherwise?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Um what. ...even among men, the standards of hot vary, some men find voluptuous but proportionate curves sexy, while others idealize a slender and petite lady. There are even those who love a big fat fertility goddess they can feed or watch eat seductively, though it's rarer in our culture of plenty/excess.

Women with an eye for aesthetics can usually spot a proportionate body with better health and less flaws, and from that ascertain a woman's sexual attractiveness. There's also something to be said for sass and confidence combined with grooming, despite proportion or youth.

I have always been able to spot other hot women, and I can also spot "sexless cold beauty" in the woman's body language and just a certain reticent manner or a less appealing face. 

So all in all, I have no idea what you're talking about. Especially because lesbians and bisexual women.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Veggie said:


> Lol, you post quoted what I originally wrote before I was like, um, I don't really feel that strongly about this, and edit.
> 
> My go to opinions tend to be more dramatic than I mean them to be.
> 
> ...


Dude, I couldn't make those numbers up. That's my point.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Waif said:


> Nobody thinks Parker is hot. In what universe does someone think she's hot? Haven't you ever seen Sex and the City? She's a pump and dump. That show's all about how Bigs is trying to run away from her, in the Kenneth Branaugh version.


Your psychology is very unhealthy and self defeating. I could write an essay on this ridiculous post alone. Good luck dating PUA losers.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Thalassa said:


> Your psychology is very unhealthy and self defeating. I could write an essay on this ridiculous post alone. Good luck dating PUA losers.


Good luck with your cats.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Waif said:


> Dude, I couldn't make those numbers up. That's my point.


So where are you getting them from then? 

Seriously, if Angelina and Kim are "cute" but not hot...who the hell are you classifying as hot?


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Veggie said:


> So where are you getting them from then?
> 
> Seriously, if Angelina and Kim are "cute" but not hot...who the hell are you classifying as hot?


I'm actually not the one classifying them. I talk about this a bit in the OP.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Tezcatlipoca said:


> You start off by saying women inaccurately judge attractiveness and then use women's judgement of attractiveness as the benchmark by which to objectively measure.
> 
> View attachment 328442


despite my high approval of this meme. I must confess I thought she was inviting women to rate her examples and then she would show how we were 'wrong' by referring to what her guy friends rated them. (Hence making her point). However, it would be a silly point to make. Men in their 20's might have differing opinions then men in their 40's , if for no other reason than the association of these women. For example, drew might be nostalgic which would increase her attractiveness. Attraction is very much psychological and much of that is not necessarily related to the physical.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

Theres no objective scale of beauty, some of my friends are attracted to women i wouldnt glance at twice.

Also, boys are attracted to a womans looks but men are attracted to women. after a certain age, a womans looks stop having that much of a sway. Or rather, you tell your little head to keep quiet while the adults are talking.

Men settle for trophy wives when they cant win the prize wife. A hot girl is just a hot girl..you know how many hot girls there are? But there will always be a hotter girl somewhere. Seriously, the parade of hot women is endless. If men chose women based on hotness...some would never choose.

Which actually happens a lot.

But, those are boys. Men, on the other hand, choose wives for different reasons.


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## J Squirrel (Jun 2, 2012)




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## piano (May 21, 2015)

this thread should probably be closed on the grounds that it is a colossal waste of time with no definite end




Waif said:


> SMG is actually guy-hot.
> 
> Jennifer Anniston. Hm. I suppose she falls into the same category as Kim K, which is 7.5. That's kind of a sweet spot. Seven is girl-next-door cute, eight is hot. So, 7.5 gets a man's attention, but also seems achievable. Both JA and KK have widespread fame... I guess they could also be both guy and girl hot.
> 
> ...


smg is hot in general. kim k and jennifer aniston are in different leagues. britney spears was way hotter before going nutso. i don't find garner all that attractive, but she is definitely cute. angelina jolie isn't my type but she is a babe and a half; she is the epiphany of "hot". reese witherspoon is not attractive. if anything, she is cute. i used to find rihanna attractive but now eh not so much. taylor swift has never done it for me. i think zooey is adorable. jennifer lawrence is higher than a 6 but her personality is what draws most women in. i only find jennifer lopez hot sometimes.

my mom and i think meryl streep is beautiful but we know most men out there would disagree

i think it's only natural for straight women to have different taste. that doesn't mean ours is wrong, though. i always assumed that when a man looks at a woman, he usually, though not always, judges her attractiveness based on how much he would enjoy having sex with her. straight women? we don't do that (as often) and if we do then we judge based on different criteria altogether because women, in general, seem to take personality and other factors into consideration much more often than men do. most of our differences in preference can be explained with biology, it seems.

also i don't think angelina jolie and kim kardashian are "overrated" because the scale only goes up to 10 and they're quite clearly 10s so to say they're overrated is to say that there are MUCH higher levels of hotness to be obtained which is both wildly inaccurate and discouraging. i don't think there are higher levels as much as there are physical variations in what a 10 can look like. i understand that most people who dub someone overrated do it because they themselves don't feel that person lives up to the hype surrounding them but that person isn't responsible for conjuring up the hype so it seems, to me, unfair to insult them when really it's their fans and admirers who are at fault

and i also feel that a lot of these accusations ("he/she is overrated") come from a place of envy more than anything else


edit: despite having wasted a good chunk of the last hour replying to this thread, i think it is ridiculous because it assumes that a man's opinion on a woman's physical attractiveness is the be-all end-all. it also appears to me that OP has a heightened sense of self-worth because she assumes that by having made this discovery and by being able to, at least according to her, accurately depict who is and isn't hot, she is somehow exempt from the findings of her self-constructed theory


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Hot is for hot pots.


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## ficsci (May 4, 2011)

Lol yep, I'm straight so I'm clueless, except for Scarlett Johansson. Ain't nobody can convince me that she isn't hot *jizzes in my pants*


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## 172354 (Oct 21, 2014)

I love Zooey...dose bangs are totes adorbs! Anyway, I think I can judge women's attractiveness, I actually used to point out hot chicks for the guys in my crew in high school, haha. Looks are subjective, and I don't think popularity necessarily has anything to do with it, but swagger definitely does. Social confidence, no matter what gender, makes a person much more attractive.


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

What's the point in obsessing over something that is virtually uncontrollable? even if we were able to find a definite view of beauty and attractiveness (the golden-ratio or whatever) it would serve no purpose other then to make others feel inferior, and badly about themselves. It's like, "whoa, you have a face and a skeleton, look at dem eyesockets, those little blue veins I love so much" 

It's all just like some cultural matador ring, where everybody tries to butt heads over what is considered to be the most attractive, or desirous, and infallible inducing. Time to stop taking so many drugs.

Exo-skeleton hand-death-grip-love-shake.


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## SilverFalcon (Dec 18, 2014)

@nichya
Thank you, I think this supports my original idea of how people think about it, though it from my point of view is not always true. But maybe demisexuality being described as "standard girl's kind of attraction" has some merits, who knows. For example I can agree with @Duo. I would add Liv Tyler too for example, she was really stunning in Onegin.

But that also depends how we see hotness. Is it overall attractiveness or just ability to induce sexual thoughts? 

I do not use word "hot" unless in reaction to someone else using it, because I would rather use a word charming for a girl that captivates me so it's not mistaken for the later. Because the later is just an instinctive impulse that does not really reach the heart.

The pictures you posted evoke sexual predatory (first) and vanity (second). First is hot in later definition, second not really.
Katy Perry IMHO points too much on surface of her in those photos, not hinting at something deeper, which makes it easily forgettable. 

Following women are IMHO hot in former definition. These pictures makes you wonder more about what kind of girls these are...
they do not have to flash too much skin, but their beauty is framed by either playfulness (second), wildness (last) or certain kind of attentive mystery (first and third) or outward focus (fourth). It hints on some ghost in the shell an its more engaging.

























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But it's true I cannot speak on behalf of most men.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

SilverFalcon said:


> @nichya
> Thank you, I think this supports my original idea of how people think about it, though it from my point of view is not always true. But maybe demisexuality being described as "standard girl's kind of attraction" has some merits, who knows. For example I can agree with @Duo. I would add Liv Tyler too for example, she was really stunning in Onegin.
> 
> But that also depends how we see hotness. Is it overall attractiveness or just ability to induce sexual thoughts?
> ...


well, yea I think we are talking roughly about the same idea or observation. Well ! though I said the picture I posted, it wasn't for the skin or because it is topless (still she has more clothing on than your last picture practically) but her look, pose, the overall outfit. I always find clothes more appealing anyway. We haven't evolved thus far for nothing  I never enjoy a too stripped off picture. But yes exactly, I think the girls think guys like what is more present to the eye, like showing skin or a very suggestive look. But I don't think it is true and your post supports that, guys might be preferring more subtlety, like I would. 

I just think that when girls think of other girls though, when they are not trying to think from a boy's point of view, they have different labels, like the examples I have given.


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## Immolate (Mar 8, 2015)

lol I don't need a dick to find women attractive.

Surely this is a poor attempt at trolling.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

lol, i really don't get why people are so indignant... i think what the OP is getting at--and i'll expand just a little--is that we may have blindspots as to what is "sexually attractive/what makes us want to sleep with a person _right now_", with the medical sexes we are not attracted to...

i do think that's true, but i think it is the same across sexes, and that there may be more of a hierarchy involved; like another poster said: social confidence is attractive no matter what you are... which would probably override, or be worth more, than physical sex appeal by itself (especially when it comes to trying to date straight women, as in most cultures social confidence will do more for men in the eye's of your average women, than it would do for women in the eye's of your average man... and of course, that's reversed when it comes to the appeal of one's actual body). 


another point i can get from the op is that guys find a massive range of women sexually attractive, and what usually catches our attention immediately is the last thing a women is trying to fix on her end (clothes, makeup--basically, the stuff that continues competition among other women), and has much more to do with basic body shape and inborn images/content that screams "fertility!", or even "sexual maturity!". 
though, i believe both sexes will view those of their own sex with the most confidence, as being the most attractive, and of course this will bleed off onto the opposite sex, as our perception cannot help but be clouded (on average) by the perceptions and opinions of those that are around us... 


as far as "there is no objective beauty standard"... there is, or, i should say "there are _many_, in fact". i remember being about 8-9 years old, visiting my cousins over the summer a few states from where i lived, and looking through their year book. just going by "what was 'hot'" for that age-group, i could pick out all the popular people, or all the people who others thought were "dreamy". 
at the same time, i could tell that they weren't actually all that attractive, but they fit a mold that was just generic enough and just the right shape, to be plastered by a combination of the individual and mass projection of an ideal. 


the topic itself is actually very complicated... we have blindspots to the areas we have no interest in, that can then be overcome by following the clues of culture, that can easily be overwritten by a person who does not fit into the milieu of expectation and the direction of opinion, but a person who exists as such due to the very reasons that those cultural ideals also exist to begin with (as they are just as natural a response to the culture, as are those that follow the culture in it's every aspect)... 
it's almost like one of those triangles where one angle is represented by an idea (let's say water), that trumps the idea of the next angle (fire), but is itself trumped by the angle the precedes it... 


may write more later.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

I like humble people, like only a confidence of being who they are is essential of course but I love the shy, not so confident boys :blushed: well I like the Te confidence though, I think there is a difference

It seems to me that most guys are not into confidence either. Like I mentioned earlier. In theory they are but in practice many of them won't, drawn to it perhaps but I don't think it lasts long for them before they start looking for very passive girls. Not saying this as a criticism, just more blunt observations and I can see how -feminine- it is compared to a female that comes off too strong. ahah every post I make here is my Te overriding the Fi but you get the idea. I am curious about the human nature, my ideals aside.


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

Wouldn't they be lesbians then?


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## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

yeah but...

lesbians and bi/pan girls


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## Loaf (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't believe the thread title, one iota.


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## LJune (May 24, 2015)

Oh, yuuah. We know. That's why the open-minded of us are bi.


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## Marisa (Apr 26, 2012)

Erm.


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## LJune (May 24, 2015)

My apologies. That was close minded of me. :-o


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Waif said:


> What we are attracted to in men is social savviness. So, the more popular women will seem hot to you.


No...Ive never been drawn to popular men. Maybe an extrovert thing? 

I judge by aesthetic appeal, not sexual attractiveness, true. "Hot", aka sexually attractive, is not the same as beautiful. I really dont judge much though nor care, and I certainly dont peg others as "competition". 

I do agree that atttractiveness is subjective, and so straight men wont even universally agree on what women are hot or not.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

I don't really want to respond to people any more, because it's redundant and boring.

Tl:dr

Men _tend to_be more attracted to looks.
Women _tend to_be more attracted certain traits, usually catch-phrased as "personality"

Beauty is what she is given + hygiene and grooming. It's slightly subjective, but mostly objective.

Clothing frames beauty, but doesn't add to it.

Personality can be attractive, but that's not the same thing as beauty. 

Someone may be more attracted to a certain kind of look, but that doesn't have any effect of whether or not someone is beautiful. For example, personality aside, I strongly prefer a darker look over a lighter look. In fact, I'd prefer someone of a darker look who was two or three notches less attractive than someone with a lighter look. However, I know that the person I prefer is less universally attractive. 

When you say, "o! beauty is in the eye of thee beholdere!" you're basically quoting Yeats. That's just poetry. That's not how it works. Beauty doesn't change from one guy to the other or from one lady to the other or whatever. You're confusing that with attraction. 

My point is that women can't tell what is universally beautiful to men as generic groups. It's almost like the way men and women *see* is different. _That's_ what gets me.


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## Waif (Jan 3, 2015)

Derange At 170 said:


> The first law of PerC: The more ridiculous a thread title is, the more pages the thread will have.


You think it's ridiculous that women can't tell when another woman is attractive to a man? Some people used to think the world was flat...


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Waif said:


> You think it's ridiculous that women can't tell when another woman is attractive to a man? Some people used to think the world was flat...


well that escalated quickly


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## Slagasauras (Jun 26, 2013)

Ugh..."women" is vague, the woman deciding who is hot and who isn't, is dependent on gender. So the title really doesn't...work.


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## yentipeee (Jun 19, 2013)

Waif said:


> You think it's ridiculous that women can't tell when another woman is attractive to a man? Some people used to think the world was flat...



haha, don't most women also think they're too flat?


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

I see this is dying and I just want to end this off with a...._I sure as fuck know when women are hot so_. If you other womenz don't, you don't know what yer missing. But that's ok because I'll be over here enjoying myself


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## AnalytiKathy (May 29, 2015)

I've noticed a discrepancy as well, between which women women think are hot and which women men think are hot.

Men are attracted to fertility and femininity and women can actually be turned off by those things coloring her opinion on which women she thinks are the most impressively attractive. The women that women think are the most attractive are more dominant which shows alpha queen bee traits. Other females will "look up" to this woman as a role model, misleading her into thinking this woman is also the most attractive. In addition, women are much more swayed by trendy cultural ideas of beauty, thinking this is what men want the most. If flat ironed hair is the thing they will think men will only want women with flat ironed hair. If models are very tall the women will think men want women who are very tall. And then there's healthy narcissism, and women are going to persuade themselves that the ideal isn't too far off from themselves.

From a social standpoint, females usually won't question these assumptions and will give "respect" to the women they deem the most attractive, but it can be very unbalancing when it's a different woman who actually gets the male attention. This women, though very fertile looking and feminine, could find herself to be a big target for hate from other women, because not only is she getting more than her fair share of male attention, but she wasn't the one who got the seal of approval by the other women. This will cause the other women to declare,"why does he like her so much?! She is so ugly!"


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

LJune said:


> Oh, yuuah. We know. That's why the open-minded of us are bi.


You don't have to be bi to be open minded. The diversity within one gender is vast and kind of incredible on it's own too.


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