# If Jawz wasn't an ENFJ, what would his other type be?



## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz, I was reading the effects of inferior Ti on ENFJ's...are you sure that this isn't you in a Ti grip? Also, in the past when you questioned your type, would you say you were in an unhealthy state, or was it simply because the other types never felt right?


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

double post


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## Geeshgirl (Jan 24, 2011)

Here's what I figured out with regards to myself. I consistently tested and was mistyped as ENFJ. What I realized is that my "Jness" is learned behavior. That is, I learned that it really does inconvenience people when you're late. And when you get paid, projects are really expected to be turned in on time. Turns out, I am actually an ENFP. Once I realized that, it was like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. I started to relate to everything in the personality forums and books regarding things such as the grip and socionics, etc. It all made sense! Even down to my Enneagram which was rare for ENFJs but quite common for ENFPs. Can you tell if anything that you typically do is inherent or learned? Do you know what your Enneagram Type is??


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Jawz, I was reading the effects of inferior Ti on ENFJ's...are you sure that this isn't you in a Ti grip? Also, in the past when you questioned your type, would you say you were in an unhealthy state, or was it simply because the other types never felt right?


I really want to know why every time I question my type, no one takes it seriously [not you I mean -- because you're the first person to really take it seriously] 


My first venture into Ne dom-hood was way back in June 2011 --- and at that point I had similar reactions from people. It was more than enough to convince me. In fact, I was honestly never really convinced -- and I was like --- "Ok .. others must be right --- fine -- I'll be that type ... and really became it." I started interpreting material and projecting it as well. 


I said:


"Do you think I might be an ENTP?"
Response: "There's no way you're an ENTP!"
My thought process: "Why not?" 
My response: "Yeah, maybe you're right"


Then I would go back and re-look at new material trying to see how I can relate to FeNi and then come back and say "Oh, I was just joking you know .. I'm not really doubting my type" . I became afraid of being judged as someone who's an attention seeking person. --- and therefore left my "studies" incomplete and went back into hiding - almost --- and over-looking if I really do relate to it or not. 


It's just too easy for me to be what others want me to be ... I can break it down to an exact science in my mind.


*sigh*


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> double post


I'm taking you seriously Jawz...I'm sorry this has been such a frustrating struggle for you.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Geeshgirl said:


> Here's what I figured out with regards to myself. I consistently tested and was mistyped as ENFJ. What I realized is that my "Jness" is learned behavior. That is, I learned that it really does inconvenience people when you're late. And when you get paid, projects are really expected to be turned in on time. Turns out, I am actually an ENFP. Once I realized that, it was like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. I started to relate to everything in the personality forums and books regarding things such as the grip and socionics, etc. It all made sense! Even down to my Enneagram which was rare for ENFJs but quite common for ENFPs. Can you tell if anything that you typically do is inherent or learned? Do you know what your Enneagram Type is??


Interesting --- I hadn't considered that possibility till today --- in fact, I was just thinking about it right around the same time as your post. I was trying to see whether the impact of being raised in a totally J-oriented family may have had a strong impact on me down-playing my perceiving tendencies. 

My family is ESTJ, INFJ, INFJ and INTJ ---- Perhaps that has something to do with it. I always did seem like a bit of an alien in my own family -- I got along excellently with my INFJ mom. Wonder if the ENxP/INFJ dynamic was at play there? *ugh* And I firmly believed it was an ENFJ/INFJ dynamic ---


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I'm taking you seriously Jawz...I'm sorry this has been such a frustrating struggle for you.


I know  Thank you for that. I didn't mean to imply you when I said everyone.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

You sound like you're having a Ni moment.

But in all serious, whether you're an ENFJ, INFJ, INTJ or whatever, I do get a very strong sense of Ni from you. Always have. Much more so than Ne.



> Introverted Intuition - Ni (INFJ, INTJ)
> Ni’s constantly wonder and guess in their head - they do this so often that they often don’t even realize that they are doing it. It more or less becomes a part of them. Ni’s easily get lost in the mind and are thus very introspective, and often pull out ingenious ideas and insights. *They view life more globally than any other type, striving to never let themselves forget about the big picture. Ni’s constantly shift their perspectives, and view and understand things from different angles and in different ways.*
> 
> Under extreme stress Ni’s become paranoid and overly withdrawn. Their inferior function jumps them, and they become overly interested in details and obsessed with physical pleasure. They become slaves to childlike impulses, sometimes ruining themselves with their decisions in the process.
> ...


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Khys, descriptions like that is why I can't stand JCF. It sounds so pretty and sparkly and awesome, I honestly relate to that *whole* description. And I might not be Ni dom at *all*. At least the Enneagram descriptions tell you all the reasons you suck.

Jawz, we weren't sure how seriously to take it, given the initial post, and the fact this is in the Spam forum of all places. I can see that this is a genuine concern you are having, and I think most of us realized this with a bit of a delay. Sorry if you feel like we aren't taking you seriously.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Jawz, Maybe try Socionics on for size? I believe EII is your correlated type. (i think)

Stratievskaya EII - Wikisocion


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Spades said:


> Khys, descriptions like that is why I can't stand JCF. It sounds so pretty and sparkly and awesome, I honestly relate to that *whole* description. And I might not be Ni dom at *all*. At least the Enneagram descriptions tell you all the reasons you suck.


Maybe you're an Ni-dom then. =P

STOP FIGHTING REALITY, YOU GODDAMN N-USERS.

read Naomi Quenk if you want to hear what's wrong with the functions. That book makes me hate myself.


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## Love (May 20, 2012)

Jawz said:


> I think I'm going to disagree once and for all [and not that there's anything wrong with your assertions either].
> 
> I don't think --- in fact, never have thought that it was a flaw of JCF that made me hard to type --- even though there have been times when I've said that I'm probably not able to fit into a box ---- But I never really believed it. I wanted to believe it and therefore I expressed. I wanted to believe that I'm an INFJ so I did - and played the part. I wanted to believe that I'm a 4, 6, 9 --- a 3 --- I played the parts like the ultimate performer ...
> 
> I'm probably one of the greatest actors in the world --- so great at acting that I've repeatedly fooled myself.



Perhaps you have grown outside of your natural characteristics. That is one of the reasons I like to read up on my said character traits, to see some of my potential weaknesses and work on them. I've told you of the character of my best friend, supposedly he is not the type to be in tune with his feelings or the feelings of others (in which he also protests to this) and we are not supposed to naturally get along very well, yet he seems to be able to understand me more than most. It's a trip. He is the one inspiring me to open up, something very very difficult for me to do. But then I ponder,... What do most of us want? We want to be loved, completely, for exactly who we are. Yet how can anyone know our depth to love if it is unseen. I have opened up to him in ways I don't open up with most and he continuously accepts me for who I am, showing me unconditional love, yet gently pointing out ways for me to grow. I have experienced such a beautiful fulfilling emotional connection in this relationship that I may have missed had I chose to keep closed up. Not that I would trust my heart to just anyone, but I'm glad he was able to break through. I have grown so much during this journey, I am so blessed to have such a wonderful friend  

So, with all that said  Who is to say we are confined?  I'm all for growth


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Khys said:


> Jawz, Maybe try Socionics on for size? I believe EII is your correlated type. (i think)
> 
> Stratievskaya EII - Wikisocion


I didn't want to bring it up -- I've always test INFP / ENFP in Socionics ... I've over-looked it in the past as a fallacy with the Socionics system.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

well i test INTJ in Socionics, soooo........


Actually DJArendee has been forcing me to read the socionics forum. Socionics aren't as kooky as I once thought, although I am still not convinced of their superiority, to, say....a loaf of bread.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Yeah, I can relate to that entire description of Ni as well and I'm definitely Ne. Usually when I talk with an Ni dom, or even aux Ni user, they have a very hard time describing Ni. However, whenever one of them has explained it, it seems so much different than this description. This is so confusing, ahhhhh!!

I can tell you this, my Dad (ENTJ) has aux Ni, and the way it works for him is like this...he will see a problem that needs solved, he will sit and think about it for a while and then move on to other things, but his Ni is still running in the background, collecting things as he goes about his day. Then, usually as he's laying in bed, or even when he's sleeping, the answer will hit him...like an Ah Ha! moment. Sometimes it comes to him in dreams, which I'm not some psychic thing...it's just his Ni still running and processing even as he sleeps. He often wakes up knowing exactly what he needs to do and KNOWS it will work. Of course, it doesn't only hit him after sleeping, he solves things during the day too 

For me, I'd say my Ne is a lot more conscious. It's like brainstorming, except exploring each idea down a path to a certain outcome. Some I take further than others down this path. It happens very quickly too. I've had Ah Ha! moments before, but it's not often; I usually come to solutions by exploration. Also, my ah ha! moments are usually when I've discovered a pattern or a cause to something that I didn't notice before.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Spades said:


> Khys, descriptions like that is why I can't stand JCF. It sounds so pretty and sparkly and awesome, I honestly relate to that *whole* description. And I might not be Ni dom at *all*. At least the Enneagram descriptions tell you all the reasons you suck.
> 
> Jawz, we weren't sure how seriously to take it, given the initial post, and the fact this is in the Spam forum of all places. I can see that this is a genuine concern you are having, and I think most of us realized this with a bit of a delay. Sorry if you feel like we aren't taking you seriously.


It's ok .. I was also being kinda playful about it --- just testing the waters to see reactions. But it's definitely not anyone's fault for not getting it either. 

I really am frustrated now ---- I'm tired of relating, being related to, being told to relate to and I just want to *be*. 

I want to unfurl my bound wings and fly upon the clouds as I was meant to instead of being chained to a world of expectations. But I can't because one of my wings is broken. Soo frustrating. It's like knowing I have the power to move mountains, and yet I've allowed myself to drown in a whirlpool of my own blood and misery. I feel like I'm sinking and yet I just can't pull myself out. But at the same time, I know that all of this is just in my head -- that perhaps even my misery is all a creation of an over-active imagination. 

I think I need a psychiatrist o.0


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Jawz said:


> It's ok .. I was also being kinda playful about it --- just testing the waters to see reactions. But it's definitely not anyone's fault for not getting it either.
> 
> I really am frustrated now ---- I'm tired of relating, being related to, being told to relate to and I just want to *be*.
> 
> I want to unfurl my bound wings and fly upon the clouds as I was meant to instead of being chained to a world of expectations.


Ditch personality theory and join a hippie movement. i can see you dancing naked in the woods.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> For me, I'd say my Ne is a lot more conscious. It's like brainstorming, except exploring each idea down a path to a certain outcome. Some I take further than others down this path. It happens very quickly too. I've had Ah Ha! moments before, but it's not often; I usually come to solutions by exploration.


Wait .. did you say that's Ne??

I made this post almost a year ago about how my mind works. Tell me if it sounds familiar or Ne-ish.



> Think of it like a flowchart of endless possibilities at each point there are several questions - At 1 point, I can only follow 1 thread of questions and sometimes cannot trace back in order to follow another thread ...
> 
> i.e.
> 
> ...


It's interesting to look at now that only 2 people thanked that post in the INFJ section. Usually I get upwards of 5-8 thanks for such posts in other sections.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> It's ok .. I was also being kinda playful about it --- just testing the waters to see reactions. But it's definitely not anyone's fault for not getting it either.
> 
> I really am frustrated now ---- I'm tired of relating, being related to, being told to relate to and I just want to *be*.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with talking to a professional. I think you definitely have a lot extra hanging over your head right now and it's not going to be easy to find your type in that state, let alone anyone over the internet being able to find it. None of that matters anyway when you are in such a slump. You need out of that before anything else. Just know that you are going to be ok...as long as you tell yourself that you will not let it defeat you, then it won't. Hang in there Jawz; if you ever need to talk, I'm here.


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## Geeshgirl (Jan 24, 2011)

Definitely sounds ENXPish. Very Ne-esque.

By the way, here's a new site that I've been all over: personalityjunkie dot com (Sorry, I'm too new to post links). Take a look at the various type descriptions. This site is unique in that it goes through growth stages (childhood, teens, etc.).

You do realize that your quest of self-typing fits very neatly into the sample that you've just posted on how your mind works. LOVE IT!!!


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Khys said:


> Ditch personality theory and join a hippie movement. i can see you dancing naked in the woods.


The idea appeals to me.

Perhaps one day I shall


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> Wait .. did you say that's Ne??
> 
> I made this post almost a year ago about how my mind works. Tell me if it sounds familiar or Ne-ish.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that's Ne. I know that with Ne I explore a ton of possibilities and outcomes; I link things together, find patterns and meanings...but I wouldn't say it's very organized, singular, and linear like you're describing. I think it CAN be very organized and singular, but it doesn't have to be...it's sort of hard for me to identify this because I use Ne even when I'm not aware of it. My thoughts jump around a lot. 

Also, you said "...down a singular path of reasoning based on my justifications"...this tells me that you are exploring AFTER judgment, is that right? For me, I explore and explore before I can decide. Explore first, decide after, is how I work.


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## Geeshgirl (Jan 24, 2011)

Khys said:


> Ditch personality theory and join a hippie movement. i can see you dancing naked in the woods.


Mmmm...naked hippies...


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz...your memory for old posts is fabulous and reminds me of my memory with that kind of stuff! Do you have a visual memory? I'm not linking this to type or functions because I have no clue if it's even related...I'm just interested


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I'm not sure that's Ne. I know that with Ne I explore a ton of possibilities and outcomes; I link things together, find patterns and meanings...but I wouldn't say it's very organized, singular, and linear like you're describing.
> 
> Also, you said "...down a singular path of reasoning based on my justifications"...this tells me that you are exploring AFTER judgment, is that right? For me, I explore and explore before I can decide. Explore first, conclusion after, is how I work.


Well, it goes both ways. Sometimes I leave things open ended and explore every single tangent that comes into my mind. 

Like .. when I was working towards making judgements about whether I'm religious or not, here's how I went about it:

Started off by thinking that I should read the Quranic translation from Point A to Point B .. However, each time I read a passage or something which raised certain questions in my mind, I started answering those questions. This meant that I followed tangents and made new discoveries on each tangent. With each tangent I followed, I found myself making judgements along the way and backtracking at the same time. However, after a short while, instead of reading the entire Quran from point A to Point B, I discovered that if I allowed my mind free reign to question and follow tangents, I was more and more energized. 

I picked up 3 books that I studied concurrently. I had the Quran that I would refer to -- which would lead me to reading passages on the internet. If I would see something that would strike me as "odd", I would visit a forum and try to find an answer. If that answered my new question satisfactorily, I would not always return to the exact point where I would leave off. I would return to a point "close" to where I left off -- or to a point where I had multiple questions. But at the same time, I was also busy with my office, wife -- I would share my discoveries along the way -- which would raise more questions -- and then i would go off on a tangent to answer those questions .. In the end, I realized that I had a huge based on knowledge which allowed me to come to a conclusion about my views on Islam --- albiet it was done in a very haphazard manner. But at least I felt like I accomplished something in the end. Now I can argue with anyone in a very logical manner. However, it's not always linear -- it's consistent -- sometimes it's linear -- but not always. That entire process took 5 years however. Meaning, that I was able to "stick" with it over that period of time -- despite all the distractions. Even now sometimes, I have some sort of an instinctive moment where I recall something that I left unanswered back then. 

For example, I was recently reading about the 5 prayers and I came across a theory which stated that there was a Sabean culture which worship a Moon God. I connected the Islamic idolation of the Moon to that Sabean worship of a Moon God and I came across a ton of links that confirmed my intuition that maybe there might be a strong link between Islam and Sabeanism. 

When I argue about religion, I find myself to be the only one in my family who doesn't fail to see the similarity between stone worshipping and stoning of the 3 stones [representing Satan]. I mean .. it's obvious to me that many of the same old techniques of ancient arabic idol worshipping have been implemented by the Muslim world -- but others seem almost blind to those kinds of connections.

Edit: This isn't a commentary on Islam so .. I don't mean to offend any Muslims nor get into a debate in this thread about it. It's just a description of how my mind works.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Jawz...your memory for old posts is fabulous and reminds me of my memory with that kind of stuff! Do you have a visual memory? I'm not linking this to type or functions because I have no clue if it's even related...I'm just interested


Visual memory? No. I don't think so. I just have a strong ability to connect things together. Like the moment you described your Ne process, for some reason my mind instinctively jumped to that post I made even though it was almost a year ago --- I can't describe why I went to that particular post when I've made almost 9000 on the forum.

It happens consistently. This is something I've been able to do when it comes to typing people. I see certain words/thoughts/ideas --- It's like my mind automatically zooms into particular words and something opens up in my mind and makes me think: "I've seen something like this before .. where have I seen it" .. I recall certain words myself. I don't remember the exact post / article. But something nags at me and I can't be satisfied till I find it again. 

When I recalled that post, all I remembered was that I used A1, A2 and A3 in that post --- which is how I was able to search for it really quickly.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Everything you're describing, Jawz, is very Ni related (in my opinion). 

I dont' quite understand why you Ni users wrestle so much.

I have a very very dear friend who is INFJ (she is about 47, so she's not a young'un. she's lived life), and sometimes I just want to shake her because I don't understand the tendency to constantly spiral around something. I see my husband do it as well sometimes.

It's like you guys are forever circling the funnel and are terrified to dive down the spout and see where you end up.

I always see these intense periods in you, my friend, my husband, where you start going off on possibilities and connections and "might-be's" and "could-be's". It's like you see so much potential for linkedness that you can't settle on a framework. 

The one major connector I see with you all is that at some point, you seem to HATE your Fe. It's like Ni and Fe have to fight to the death every year or so. And then Se and Ti come out to play and make you all go Full Moon on yourselves. All the connections you see just frazzle you are something. I dunno. I kinda see you as a Ni-dom, though. 

I dunno. I don't know what type you are, I'm just saying that so far as patterns go the three of you all follow the same course on a routine basis.

*shrug*


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> Well, it goes both ways. Sometimes I leave things open ended and explore every single tangent that comes into my mind.
> 
> Like .. when I was working towards making judgements about whether I'm religious or not, here's how I went about it:
> 
> ...


Well, this is basically exactly how I think. Some people might think it's "thinker" over "feeler", but ENFP's can seem like T types because we express our Fi through thinking <---That was in the phases article I sent you. 

Here's me thinking, making a decision, and carrying out the decision: 

Ne: Explore explore explore, possibilities, meanings, information, etc. 
Fi: How does this fit with my internal values? Let me consult Te and Si before I decide...Te, Si, what say you??
Te: Well, let me organize some of these thoughts we're exploring and check if they make sense.
Si: Looks legit to me. 
Fi: Ok, then it's decided. Te, please present the conclusion to the audience so that we are taken seriously.
Te: Let's do this. 

Of course, sometimes Si is stubborn in that inferior function position, and when he has too much say in things (Si grip), I get stuck. He'll say, "doesn't sound legit yet" to everything, so Te will keep organizing and checking facts while Ne keeps trying to explore, but everything turns up road blocked by Si. This is what happens when I'm caught in an Si grip that is influenced by tert Te.

I also get stuck sometimes when I let myself explore too many possibilities. Sometimes I overcomplicate things.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Khys said:


> Everything you're describing, Jawz, is very Ni related (in my opinion).
> 
> I dont' quite understand why you Ni users wrestle so much.
> 
> ...


If could thank this a million times, I would. 

And I'm having this thread moved to the appropriate forum.


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## Angelic Gardevoir (Oct 7, 2010)

*clicks all options*

That's my standard response to threads in the spam forum.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> Visual memory? No. I don't think so. I just have a strong ability to connect things together. Like the moment you described your Ne process, for some reason my mind instinctively jumped to that post I made even though it was almost a year ago --- I can't describe why I went to that particular post when I've made almost 9000 on the forum.
> 
> It happens consistently. This is something I've been able to do when it comes to typing people. I see certain words/thoughts/ideas --- It's like my mind automatically zooms into particular words and something opens up in my mind and makes me think: "I've seen something like this before .. where have I seen it" .. I recall certain words myself. I don't remember the exact post / article. But something nags at me and I can't be satisfied till I find it again.
> 
> When I recalled that post, all I remembered was that I used A1, A2 and A3 in that post --- which is how I was able to search for it really quickly.


I think this is Si, but I'm not positive. I do this a lot too. I'm not sure how an Si Dom or aux user would describe it though.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

LOL !! Someone voted all the types


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Angelic Gardevoir said:


> *clicks all options*
> 
> That's my standard response to threads in the spam forum.


I was thinking it might be an INTJ that did this  Should've known xD


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I think this is Si, but I'm not positive. I do this a lot too. I'm not sure how an Si Dom or aux user would describe it though.


My dad and brother in law are heavy Si users [ESTJ and ESFJ respectively] --- and their attention to detail and recollection trumps mine any day. 

One example of this is that my dad has a mental filing system of every single event that has ever happened in his life stored in a perfectly chronological order and the way he recalls his childhood stories complete with details about colours, textures and the like is remarkable. My brother in law has a similar kind of attention to detail. I remember a few months ago, I wanted him to look for a particular file on his computer which I had stored on his computer in front of him 6 months before that --- he pulled it out within seconds whereas I was the one who actually did it and I was lost. 

I forget where I store files on my computer 2 days after I save them 

I have to work very hard to organize where I keep things. I learnt how to do it extremely well --- but I have never gotten the hang of it. I would call my method of organization "organized chaos". That said, ENFJ's have also described their organization as that - so I know this is not something to go by.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Jawz said:


> The idea appeals to me.
> 
> Perhaps one day I shall


Join ussssss!!! Om Festival tickets go on sale tomorrow ^____~

(Sorry, I am too sleepy for a serious response. Good night Jawz <3 And I agree, if you are going through a rough time, perhaps some introspection, *away from typology*, is what's required).


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## NingenExp (Apr 4, 2011)

Just to add something (that I hope it's not confusing you again)

I think I am an INFJ and I have similar problems, my mind cannot rest until I get the big picture with all the details I consider neccesary (even if I think I cannot describe them at all, but if I try I get this mess of information all over the place) understood. Having Ti and Ni is not funny, no sir.

and yes, Fe is sometimes supressed to the point I doubt it all over again

Again and again, Agony and hell !!!


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## NingenExp (Apr 4, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> ...or maybe your Ne makes you explore every possibility before you can fully decide? I can give you an article that describes Ne doms doing this very thing...as well as *exploring outwardly by talking, writing, or asking others about it.*


Oh God, I do that too, a lot, til' the point where I feel I'm pretty demanding of others' attention and therefore I withdraw...and I cannot avoid to feel ignored and that the only good thing I can give to the world is to feed it up. So, could you please post that article, please


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

NingenExp said:


> Oh God, I do that too, a lot, til' the point where I feel I'm pretty demanding of others' attention and therefore I withdraw...and I cannot avoid to feel ignored and that the only good thing I can give to the world is to feed it up. So, could you please post that article, please


Here ya go, the part I was referring to is under the Ne description...
http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-articles/91932-phases-enfp-growth.html


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## NingenExp (Apr 4, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Here ya go


Where is the Thank button? Thanks


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Jawz is type JAWZ.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

i'm pretty sure you are an xNxx, and probably (?) an xNxJ. beyond that, i'm not sure and will think about it more...


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Your very question perplexes me. Asking why JAWZ isn't ENFJ is like asking why things fall down instead of up or how come birds can fly and bears can't. It just is and the less people question it, the happier everyone'll be.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

Jawz ~ you might want to look at inferior functions....

which of these sounds like you under stress? i'll elaborate more on the ones that you can identify with:

1. loss of control over facts & details, impulsiveness, catastrophizing (seeing only the worst possibilities in the future and the unknown) - this state can be brought on by: issues of reality, anything unknown, overdoing their own type. they can get back to normal after: they hit bottom, they are taken seriously by others, they are helped with overwhelming details. (Si dom, Ne inf)

2. withdrawal and depression, obsessiveness, focus on the body - this state can be brought on by: physical exhaustion, a focus on facts, violation of values and principles. they can get back to normal after: they meditate, others pay attention to their physical needs, they receive support - not patronization. (Ne dom, Si inf)

3. internal confusion, inappropriate attribution of meaning (reading through the lines inaccurately and negatively), grandiose vision - this state can be brought on by: excessive focus on the future, closing off of options, excessive structured activity. they can get back to normal after: they make contingency plans, they are reassured by others regarding dire consequences, they are helped by others in setting priorities. (Se dom, Ni inf)

4. excessive criticism, convoluted logic, compulsive search for truth - this state can be brought on by: absence of trust, pressure to conform, interpersonal conflict. they can get back to normal after: solitude and journal writing, taking on a new project, having their need to be left alone honored by others. (Fe dom, Ti inf)

5. logic emphasized to an extreme, hypersensitivity in relationships, emotionalism - this state can be brought on by: strong emotional expressions, disconfirmations of feeling values, insensitivity to introversion needs. they can get back to normal after: they receive respect of their physical and psychological space by others, they are excused from responsibilities, if others avoid asking them how they feel. (Ti dom, Fe inf)

6. judgments of incompetence, aggressive criticism, precipitous action - this state can be brought on by: negativity and excessive criticism, fear of impending loss and separation, violation of values. they can get back to normal after: this state ends all by itself, having their feelings validated, if others avoid trying to reason with them. (Fi dom, Te inf)

7. hypersensitivity to inner states, outbursts of emotion, fear of feeling - this state can be brought on by: disregard of their deep values, others' emotional expressions, remorse for their own harshness. they can get back to normal after: experiencing the depth of their feeling, silent support from others, talking to a trusted person. (Te dom, Fi inf)

8. obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasure, adversarial attitude towards the outer world - this state can be brought on by: dealing with details, unexpected events, excessive extraverting. they can get back to normal after: time alone to recharge, lightening of usual schedule, if others avoid giving advice or suggestions. (Ni dom, Se inf)

(information taken directly from various portions of the book Was That Really Me? How Everyday Stress Brings Out our Hidden Personality, by Naomi L. Quenk.)


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Additionally, make sure you aren't using Ni to create the feeling that you're using Ne. I know that seems complicated, but there have been times when I intuited that I was another type, but realized that such thoughts were themselves only Ni abstractions.


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## Geoffrey (Jan 27, 2012)

emerald sea said:


> Jawz ~ you might want to look at inferior functions....
> 
> which of these sounds like you under stress? i'll elaborate more on the ones that you can identify with:
> 
> ...


-----Absolutely excellent advice.


Jawz said:


> Ok .. this is damn serious.
> 
> If I am not an ENFJ --- what other type do you think I might be?
> 
> PS. Did I say that I'm serious?


-----I see ExFJ = Fe-dom. Assertive people-oriented decisions. If you are absolutely insisting that I must choose something other than ENFJ--which you are indeed _insisting _on (which seems like it just _might _relate to your type)--then I would no-heartedly say ESFJ. "No"-heartedly. You know, instead of half-heartedly? At first I thought it was clever, but then I realized that since I had to explain it, it wasn't. Oh well, it's already typed. <--pun? 
-----Te-dom? No. You are assertive, but you don't leverage people like a Te-dom.
-----Fi/Ti/Ni/Si-dom? Seriously? 'nuff said.
-----Se-dom? C'mon!
-----Ne-dom? Maybe . . . . but on the other hand, absolutely not.
-----The MMDI gives you a percentage likelihood for each type (but I think that's in the full report, for which you have to pay). Here: Free Personality Test, with an in-depth analysis
-----Your contributions are appreciated, right? So isn't type secondary to the journey of self-discovery? Hopefully you say yes to those. I'm not a Fe-dom, so I'm not as good as you are at this. ; )


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

@_Geoffrey_

Four Preferences


Jawz


In personality type theory, there are three ways to look at your personality. Each provides a deeper and more meaningful insight. The first perspective uses four preferences, detailed in the table (right). *You combine your preferences, shown by the green bars in the table, to get your personality type code, i.e., INFP. *The MMDI suggests that you also consider whether your type might be ISFP. The reason for this will become apparent later, when we discuss the whole type approach.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

@_emerald sea_



> *1. loss of control over facts & details, impulsiveness, catastrophizing (seeing only the worst possibilities in the future and the unknown)* - this state can be brought on by: issues of reality, anything unknown, overdoing their own type. they can get back to normal after: they hit bottom, they are taken seriously by others, they are helped with overwhelming details. (Si dom, Ne inf)


Yes. I've experience this --- but not as a pattern of repeated behaviour. 




> *2. withdrawal and depression, obsessiveness, focus on the body - this state can be brought on by: physical exhaustion, a focus on facts, violation of values and principles. they can get back to normal after: they meditate, others pay attention to their physical needs, they receive support - not patronization. (Ne dom, Si inf)*


Quite true --- and a repeated pattern of behaviour. I have a focus on my body but that is probably related to my disability? Also -- is it just me, or does this sound extremely 7-ish unhealthy behaviour as well. 




> *3. internal confusion, inappropriate attribution of meaning (reading through the lines inaccurately and negatively), grandiose vision - this state can be brought on by: excessive focus on the future, closing off of options, excessive structured activity. they can get back to normal after: they make contingency plans, they are reassured by others regarding dire consequences, they are helped by others in setting priorities. (Se dom, Ni inf)*


Yeah -- I can relate to this as well. 



> 4. excessive criticism, convoluted logic, compulsive search for truth - this state can be brought on by: absence of trust, pressure to conform, interpersonal conflict. they can get back to normal after: solitude and journal writing, taking on a new project, having their need to be left alone honored by others. (Fe dom, Ti inf)


Question here is -- is this excessive criticism of the self, or of external values/data? I can't relate to this much ... even though technically I'm supposed to relate to this the most, right? 




> 5. logic emphasized to an extreme, hypersensitivity in relationships, emotionalism - this state can be brought on by: strong emotional expressions, disconfirmations of feeling values, insensitivity to introversion needs. they can get back to normal after: they receive respect of their physical and psychological space by others, they are excused from responsibilities, if others avoid asking them how they feel. (Ti dom, Fe inf)


No. 




> *6. judgments of incompetence, aggressive criticism, precipitous action - this state can be brought on by: negativity and excessive criticism, fear of impending loss and separation, violation of values. they can get back to normal after: this state ends all by itself, having their feelings validated, if others avoid trying to reason with them. (Fi dom, Te inf)*


Surprise surprise. This sounds extremely familiar. I have constantly fallen into the mind-set of wanting my feelings validated. I always got that from my mother. When I stopped getting it, I felt like I was completely trapped -- with no where to go. 




> *7. hypersensitivity to inner states, outbursts of emotion, fear of feeling - this state can be brought on by: disregard of their deep values, others' emotional expressions, remorse for their own harshness. they can get back to normal after: experiencing the depth of their feeling, silent support from others, talking to a trusted person. (Te dom, Fi inf)*


Correct me if this doesn't sound like a combination of Enneagram Type 3 and 6-ish in an unhealthy state --- so of course I relate to it. 




> *8. obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasure, adversarial attitude towards the outer world - this state can be brought on by: dealing with details, unexpected events,* excessive extraverting. *they can get back to normal after: time alone to recharge, lightening of usual schedule, if others avoid giving advice or suggestions.* (Ni dom, Se inf)


Oh yeah ... so easy to relate to everything. 

My mind is blowing up. This is not getting me anywhere. *sigh*


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## Geoffrey (Jan 27, 2012)

Jawz said:


> Four Preferences
> Jawz
> In personality type theory, there are three ways to look at your personality. Each provides a deeper and more meaningful insight. The first perspective uses four preferences, detailed in the table (right). *You combine your preferences, shown by the green bars in the table, to get your personality type code, i.e., INFP. *The MMDI suggests that you also consider whether your type might be ISFP. The reason for this will become apparent later, when we discuss the whole type approach.



-----Well the NF part I see. Just the fact that someone is interested in MBTI usually means that someone is N. It's certainly possible that you are INFP. It's pretty difficult to tell E from I online. Oftentimes the fact that this forum is online--the preferred communication medium for introverts--attracts introverts. But that is not a hard and fast rule. INFPs can be extremely outspoken (but I don't have to tell you that . Fi is usually distinct from Fe. INFPs tend to feel strongly about lots of things--and so usually have lots of values and opinions, and those values and opinions tend to be content-oriented (on a particular subject) rather than procedure-oriented (how we behave/treat each other). Does that fit you? <--to be extra clear, that's not snarky or rhetorical. I'm acknowledging that only you know you, of course. 
-----You could always try it on for size. Most--the grand majority--of INFPs are not sensitive about someone carrying the label of INFP (aren't going to judge you), especially in an effort to find oneself. There are a few exceptions, of course. 
-----Personally, I think it's natural to doubt one's type from time to time--J and P alike. Oftentimes, though not always, that doubt is substantiated. Good luck in your search!


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

Jawz said:


> @_emerald sea_
> 
> 
> Yes. I've experience this --- but not as a pattern of repeated behaviour.
> ...


sorry it's not helping you . 

enneatypes can mimic cognitive functions and create confusion. yes, Ne and enneatype 7 can be difficult to distinguish sometimes; also, i might add, Fi and enneatype 4 can be markedly similar in certain respects. i know i score probably higher than an INFJ would be expected to, in both Ne and Fi (at one point they were only slightly lower than Ni and Fe), and at first i thought that was shadow function appearance (due to stress) but finally realized it was more likely enneatype 7 in Ne costume and enneatype 4 disguised as Fi. that would be something worth considering for you as well... 

the 7 and the so/sx in your enneagram type could make you appear extroverted although you may be an introvert. i've almost come to the conclusion that this is why i am an introvert but appear to be an extrovert - the intense desire to connect deeply with others (sx) and the desire to connect with a wide variety of people (so), in addition to the fun-loving extrovertish tendencies of enneatype 7. you strike me as an ambivert who can't live without connection with people.

i wouldn't be surprised if you are INFP and the above explains the apparent extroversion...and maybe you actually have 7w6 instead of 6w7 but the 6 seems more pronounced because of all the trauma in your life. *hugs* or you could be an ENFJ or INFJ whose shadow functions (Ne and Fi) are making a profound appearance. don't underestimate the existence of the shadow self. 

you view yourself as a good actor who can take on any personality type - that sounds to me like your type 3 heart fix.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

LXPilot said:


> Additionally, make sure you aren't using Ni to create the feeling that you're using Ne. I know that seems complicated, but there have been times when I intuited that I was another type, but realized that such thoughts were themselves only Ni abstractions.


The possibility that I'm an Se-dom, or Se-aux with over-used or being in the grip of Ni inferior hasn't been discarded either. 

The problem is that when I eliminate a type, I always seem to find some sort of material/thought/ideas that seem to bring them back into consideration. And I have a compulsive tendency to contemplate, reflect upon every single possibility that enters my mind --- otherwise I feel as though my research is incomplete. 

I can never be too sure about what I find out. 

And as much as I would like to do this without the influence of Enneagrams coming in -- but now I'm at a level where I just can't think about any of the theories in isolation. 

Another thing that really baked my noodle yesterday was teddy's post about Keirsey interactions and communications --- I related to the whole thing. How can one relate to everything equally -- shouldn't there be some sort of *close* relation ... somewhere. What I'm trying to say is --- sure there's vagueness in these theories --- leeway --- but is it really enough that I could easily sit there and go

"yeah -- that's true"
"Oh .. that's true as well"
"Hmm .. is this my preference? Or rationalization --- yeah .. it's a preference in some situations -- rationalization in others!"


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

MNiS said:


> Your very question perplexes me. Asking why JAWZ isn't ENFJ is like asking why things fall down instead of up or how come birds can fly and bears can't. *It just is and the less people question it, the happier everyone'll be.*


Question everything ! The answers are always mind-boggling ---- and if not mind-boggling than at the very least they open up the mind to new avenues of thought that one had never considered before. Why should I not question -- if I stopped questioning - and expected everyone else to do the same, then that would mean an end to critical thought and sharing of knowledge and ideas!


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

NingenExp said:


> Oh God, I do that too, a lot, til' the point where I feel I'm pretty demanding of others' attention and therefore I withdraw...and I cannot avoid to feel ignored and that the only good thing I can give to the world is to feed it up. So, could you please post that article, please


I just wanted to clarify that the need to ask others questions doesn't come from wanting them to decide for us, and it's not about being ignored or attention. The purpose of asking others is to probe them for their thoughts so that all the bases are covered. Maybe people see things that I missed? Maybe they could offer some good insight?...then more exploration occurs from there.


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## LiquidCool (Feb 26, 2011)

@Jawz:

Sixteen Men: Understanding Masculine Personality Types - Loren E. Pedersen - Google Books

I haven't read the book, so I can't vouch for it. However, it may help you determine a better framework or help you distinguish between the attitudes.


As for actually typing you, I would probably lean towards an xNxx based on your posts. The problem is that I wonder if you actually have a neglected sensing preference - perhaps as a way to disassociate from certain aspects of your reality. I also wonder how much of it might be related to your knee problems (if I recall correctly). I also would learn towards xxFx.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

LiquidCool said:


> @_Jawz_:
> 
> Sixteen Men: Understanding Masculine Personality Types - Loren E. Pedersen - Google Books
> 
> ...


Damn. I had that book --- I knew I should've read it from cover to cover instead of simply reading parts about ENFJ's --- *sigh*

That's where my research fails --- I see things and something immediately snaps "Yess!" --- and then honestly, in much perceiver like fashion, I stop going into further depth. 

When I'm reading material, I skim-read it [always have]. I honestly don't have the patience to read every single word. I pretend that I do. 

I'd honestly rather read a few lines, make assumptions and extrapolate. Read>Connect>Express and Extrapolate while expressing is when I'm operating at my best. 

Hence why I'm a highly skilled verbal debater --- and many people are intimidated when debating with me --- however, when I am faced with a true authority, I proceed with caution and rely on agreement _till _I can get a good idea of where they're weak -- -and then I challenge them around their weak areas.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

Jawz said:


> The possibility that I'm an Se-dom, or Se-aux with over-used or being in the grip of Ni inferior hasn't been discarded either.
> 
> The problem is that when I eliminate a type, I always seem to find some sort of material/thought/ideas that seem to bring them back into consideration. And I have a compulsive tendency to contemplate, reflect upon every single possibility that enters my mind --- otherwise I feel as though my research is incomplete.
> 
> ...


if you're an intuitive, you can still use sensing functions.
if you're a sensor, you can still use intuiting functions.
if you're a thinker, you can still use feeling functions.
if you're a feeler, you can still use thinking functions.

we are not 100% one nor 100% the opposite preference. people have to use both to function in this world, there will just be one you use, trust, and are inclined towards more than the other. if you're close to the line (50/50) you are going to have difficulty establishing which is your preference. 

so, like you said, "preference" is the most important. but from inside your own head, where you experience use of a wide variety of functions, it can be hard to determine which one is dominant. the people who have spent the most time around you have the best idea which function you extrovert...and that's key to determining your type. 

have you ever considered asking the people who have spent the most time around you either in person or online (not everyone, only those around whom you have felt accepted and safe to be "unrevised" or "unabridged" around them, if you know what i mean) specifically questions like this:

do they see you as someone who likes to be in charge and would like to impose their logic on their environment, who makes decisions for yourself and for others based on what makes the most logical sense to you, even if it badly affects harmony in relationships, but not if it is unjust? (extraverting Te)

do they see you as someone who is engaging with others, cares about how others are treated, is concerned to get along and maintain harmony in their relationships, and makes decisions based on how they affect others or how they affect relationships? (extraverting Fe)

do they see you as a highly creative person who is never boring with their vivacious enthusiasm, artistic imagination, and inventive humor, or as an ideas person who always can figure out a solution to a difficult problem and seems to thrive on troubleshooting/problem solving or coming up with inventive new ways to do things or the like? (extraverting Ne)

do they see you as someone very in touch with facts and telling it like they see it, someone who isn't inclined towards the airy-fairy but towards cold hard facts, someone very aware of and engaged with your physical environment rather than drifting off in your thought world all the time? (extraverting Se)

you could read them these descriptions and ask them which one sounds _most_ like you, to them. what you extravert is what others see the most of, in you, when looking at you from the outside...

i realize that enneatype and cognitive functions can be confused by this method, but i think this will narrow down all the millions of options that are floating around in your mind. the fact that your mind is swimming in possibilities, you can't easily rule them out, and are driven towards closure does highly resemble xNxJ.  

EDIT: wanted to add...your posts in this entire thread amazingly mimic my thought patterns when new data is introduced into the Ni machine, which as a result generates new possibilities, and Ni is working in conjunction with Ti trying to process and fit that new puzzle piece into the whole picture, and see how what i thought i understood before needs to be revised so that the new data "fits," and how these changes affect the appearance of the whole.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I just wanted to clarify that the need to ask others questions doesn't come from wanting them to decide for us, and it's not about being ignored or attention. The purpose of asking others is to probe them for their thoughts so that all the bases are covered. Maybe people see things that I missed? Maybe they could offer some good insight?...then more exploration occurs from there.


+1,000,000 !!!


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> +1,000,000 !!!


This is so confusing because I know this is how Ne works, but I'm thinking you use Fe and Ni. I "think" out loud which can be easily spotted in my writing. I only questioned my MBTI one time (thought possibly ENTP) and literally for half a day, but after talking it out with someone, I came to realize it was Fi looking like Ti. I have questioned my gut fix a few times and I went to the ENNG forum to ask people and bounce things around. I take what they say and I explore it. For instance, I noticed @_Spades_ mentioned 1w2 for my gut fix very early on, and it was mentioned a couple other times from there. So I thought maybe I should take a closer look at it. I read about it from several different site's descriptions and realized it was exactly my gut fix. I explored it a lot before I finally settled on it. So now if you ask me why I am 1w2 gut, I would tell you all the reasons why, and saying "well, so and so saw it and I realized it was so me!" would not be my answer. I would explain exactly why I'm 1w2 because that is what made me decide...bouncing thoughts off of others was part of my exploration. At least that's how I see it  <---by the way, all of this was just me thinking out loud, basically without a point. 

I'm thinking Fe for you because of how you seem to form yourself around others, but only you know your true self...and if you are having a hard time seeing your true self, then start there and forget about functions until that picture is clear for you


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I'm thinking Fe for you because of how you seem to form yourself around others, but only you know your true self...and if you are having a hard time seeing your true self, then start there and forget about functions until that picture is clear for you


Here's why I got confused:



> Young Threes are highly adaptable and responsive to the emotional states of others, and so learn to adjust themselves to the reactions and subconscious expectations of their nurturing-figure. This person is usually the Three’s mother or a mother-substitute, but not always. In some cases, the mother was largely absent, physically or emotionally, and it fell upon the father or a sibling to nurture the baby. In other cases, a nanny or grandparent may have fulfilled this role. In any case, it is important to understand who cared for the child and who provided mirroring.





> In their formative years, Threes learn to tune into the desires and hopes of their nurturing-figure. The expectations of the nurturing-figure need not be expressed explicitly. With the remarkable intuitive gifts of children, young Threes know what will please their nurturers, and which behaviors produce approving looks and smiles. All of this is quite natural, and if the nurturing-figure is reasonably healthy, the Three will mature into a well-balanced person with good self-esteem.





> As adults, Threes continue to play out this pattern from early childhood. They seek out people whom they admire and esteem to give them validation and admiration. Threes are not interested in indiscriminately getting everyone to like them: rather, they focus on specific individuals who they themselves view as valuable, successful people. Although this motivates Threes to do those things which will make them seem worthwhile to others, this also leaves them highly vulnerable to fears of rejection. They will work tirelessly to avoid ever being rejected, ever being seen as a "loser." The admiring gaze which they sought from their nurturing-figures made them feel that they were loved and valued, and in one form or another, they are always seeking that look in the eyes of others. Admiration makes them feel alive and worthwhile—*at least for a while; without it, they feel empty and hostile because their underlying feelings of not being valued for who they are begin to surface.*


My mom's an INFJ --- and I know for a fact that she isn't mistyped at all. 

I don't think I'm Fe --- I think I mirror Fe. The reason is that too much of this mirroring, and I go through exactly what's written in the last line --- which is why I go through this process over and over again.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

@_emerald sea_



> EDIT: wanted to add...your posts in this entire thread amazingly mimic my thought patterns when new data is introduced into the Ni machine, which as a result generates new possibilities, and Ni is working in conjunction with Ti trying to process and fit that new puzzle piece into the whole picture, and see how what i thought i understood before needs to be revised so that the new data "fits," and how these changes affect the appearance of the whole.


Great explanation! I can totally see this! I see Ne exploration as different than this...I'd say it seems more like the way @_Spades_ is exploring her type, but even that might not be Ne. She hasn't decided on a type...she's still exploring before making a decision, which seems very Ne to me. The fact that @_Jawz_ settled on ENFJ for so long makes me think that perhaps he's just exploring new data to see if it fits in the puzzle (Ni). I could be waaayyyyy off on all that though. Haha!

Eta: I don't mean to imply that once a Ne user makes a decision, they never explore it again. Many Ne users start to question things and have to tell themselves they're just over thinking. 

I think I read on the INFJ forum that many of them wear masks to be like others...I don't know if that means anything or not, haha!


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

@Jawz, have you ever considered ESFJ? I know 3, 2 of them are confirmed, and those 2 do the mirroring thing that you describe. I'm thinking it might be mostly an Fe thing? However, the ENFJ's I know IRL don't seem to do it to the extent the ESFJ's do. Maybe it's because the ESFJ's are extraverting feeling towards others and introverting their sensing observations back to themselves which can make them pick up the actions of those around them? This is all coming from my head, so I have NO clue if there's any merit to it. I honestly have no idea anymore what functions you use! Haha! 

I do realize type 3 ENNG can do the mirroring thing too, but maybe forget about ENNG for now and concentrate only on JCF or MBTI to reduce confusion?


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> Oh man...
> Basically I have nothing helpful to say right now...
> 
> ...but could you describe more pictures, maybe, pweeze?


Heh. Reminds me of the time when you did a picture board for your type 

Just might work --- even if it doesn't, it's something to do for the time being  



























[Others will probably think I'm considering myself as the one on the left. Actually, I see myself more as the one on the right but also both]


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> Sorry for double posting...
> I wanted to add: I can't promise that I'll be able to find out anything based on more descriptions. But somehow they seem telling.
> 
> And I thought that maybe you could also make a video and have your eye movements tracked by Mr Eye Movement Tracker @_Pier 56_
> ...


Nah.. thanks, but I want to keep this open for Typers -- not stereotypers 

Not that you're a stereotyper


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## Disillusioned Dreamfish (Mar 17, 2012)

I thought this question was about a mindless mechanical Hollywood movie sharkfish killing machine, so I said ISTJ. :shocked:


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Disillusioned Dreamfish said:


> eyesore minimized


I appreciate jokes, but seriously -- what's with the font ?


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

lol... uhm... hm... thanks for the pictures... but I actually meant describing pictures like you did with the birdie bird. That random picture game thingy.:kitteh:

EDIT: I honestly think that those pics would be better suited for Etype purpose...or something.



Jawz said:


> Nah.. thanks, but I want to keep this open for Typers -- not stereotypers
> 
> Not that you're a stereotyper


Did you look into that thread at all? hehe

I don't think he's a stereotyper. I rather think he's being scientific and has some good findings. But if you don't like his thread or what he does, I think we can rule out INFJ... lol... oh well... at least I didn't see an INFJ who didn't like his idea. ;D


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> lol... uhm... hm... thanks for the pictures... but I actually meant describing pictures like you did with the birdie bird. That random picture game thingy.:kitteh:
> 
> EDIT: I honestly think that those pics would be better suited for Etype purpose...or something.
> 
> ...


Hah! Touche ... no .. I didn't actually check the thread  Perhaps I should. 

One of the possibilities I totally ruled out very early was typing through videos, pics etc. I think cultural differences come into play - though I would be open to sources that legitimize/validate typing through vids/pics and see their reliability on my own. 

Any suggestions?

Edit: Browsing through thread now. Will get back on this


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Jawz said:


> Hah! Touche ... no .. I didn't actually check the thread  Perhaps I should.
> 
> One of the possibilities I totally ruled out very early was typing through videos, pics etc. I think cultural differences come into play - though I would be open to sources that legitimize/validate typing through vids/pics and see their reliability on my own.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Just have a look at that thread. I think there's no better source than that thread at this point. :kitteh: Oh well... Socionics also types through pictures. But I'm not 100% convinced by them...


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

@Jawz, I like that you answered with the first things that popped in your mind, but are these answers what you think you always have felt underneath the friendly front? I mean, what if you are in an inferior function grip right now? That could make you mistype big time. 

I'm still taking you seriously btw, but I just feel a little uncomfortable trying to analyze functions if you are in a distressed state.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

@_Jawz_, 

my brain is taking a while to start up...










want to reply - just give me some time to think over it so i don't post useless babble. xD

just wanted to ask - what would be most helpful to you...if we intuitives spelled out the way we think and you could compare it to the way you think? or if we gave our own descriptions of Ni and Ne? or if we pointed out what in your writing looks like (or doesn't look like) Ni or Ne? 


---

also - i'm curious as to what extent you express certain traits because they affect the way your parents/family view you? have you always felt the need to match what they approved of? if not, did a desire for that develop since the divorce? because i see your dad's courage, your mom's empathy, your family's mindset of caring for others, and a lot of that engineer-logic shared by both your parents in you. parents always influence children, but i'm wondering to what degree this is a type 3 mirror, and to what degree it is natural.

if so, is it possible for you to imagine how you always wanted to be, but denied yourself being - or impulses you crushed inside yourself - in order to have a good image with them? have you noticed distinct changes in yourself when you are away from them, like when your mom left Canada? what would you suddenly feel most free to do if your family were not a part of your life - if anything?


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> @_Jawz_, I like that you answered with the first things that popped in your mind, but are these answers what you think you always have felt underneath the friendly front? I mean, what if you are in an inferior function grip right now? That could make you mistype big time.
> 
> I'm still taking you seriously btw, but I just feel a little uncomfortable trying to analyze functions if you are in a distressed state.


I can't quite decide what lies at the core anymore, so you have a very good point. 

However, I felt the least amount of "strain" on myself when I was answering the questions in Spades questionnaire - meaning that I looked at the questions and said things exactly the way as they came into my mind. In fact, I didn't have to *think* much at all. Even when I noticed contradictory statements, I let them go. Usually I'm extremely careful about being "exposed" -- but at this point, I have no such fear at all. 

In fact, you can use even my responses to other posters in the thread --- the ones not even related to type at all. 

I'm going by my gut and just winging it. Even if an overtly sarcastic / false judgement forms -- so be it - I'm expressing it.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

@_Enfpleasantly_ ---- Analyze what you see as you see it. I don't want any thought left unexplored at this point. 
@_emerald sea_ --- I honestly wonder if I started directing how I want people to response and with what, then in a way I feel like I'm creating a bias towards self-validation through _your _words instead of scrutiny of my statements. So .. how you go about this is entirely your wish.


as for your questions @_emerald sea_ [Heh .. I'm so used to just calling you sea -- this sounds so formal xD ] 

*also - i'm curious as to what extent you express certain traits because they affect the way your parents/family view you? 
*
Pretty much all of it. I think I kinda feel the pressure of expectations relieve themselves only when I'm with someone I consider a deep friend. I remember that even though I would be working towards achieving my goals, I would always have a friend who I would talk to about myself. I have always allowed one person into my world who knows what I really wanted to do with my life and just how hard it has always been for me to live up to this image of appeasing my parents. 

This started as early as when I was 11. My mom made me make a series of promises that I've always lived up to [I can't reveal them here]. 

I personally wanted to be a stay at home musician. But that would've been _insufficient _-- I grew up in a household where they didn't care about musicians. Musicians have no respect. While I was growing up, they are called "kanjars" [which is a derogatory term for sex trader] in Pakistan. 

When I was given the choice to go into music as opposed to academics even in Canada --- the thought of forever being considered a kanjar by own father played up and I decided to excel in academics. 

However, how I asserted my own wish was by making sure I *always* had a keyboard and kept on composing and composing -- but I never shared with anyone except my mother who encouraged it as a hobby - nothing more. 

*have you always felt the need to match what they approved of?* 

Yes. However, I would present multiple choices and pick the one that we all agreed on. E.G. I had the choice for McMaster/Western/Windsor. I decided on Western in the end, but I kept what my mom really wanted in mind. I didn't really care whether I got a Psych degree [which I _really_ wanted] or a sociology degree [which I was ok with]. 

Same with my MBA .. I actually really wanted to stay back in Canada --- but when I returned to Pakistan in 2002, my mom made me give the entrance test for the top MBA school. I got in. At that point --- I really wanted my masters in sociology, but I also thought that an MBA would be great. So I decided to get an MBA instead. 

Same with my jobs. A couple of times I picked the one I really wanted -- a couple of times I picked the ones my parents wanted me to pick.

*if not, did a desire for that develop since the divorce? 
*
Since then -- I've been searching for what I really want. And apart from @_Etherea_, I haven't found it. I've given up so much that it just seems impossible at this point to get it all back --- and my mind is no longer willing to compromise. But I know I have to. I'm hopeless except for the fact that I want @_Etherea_ in my life at some point --- I'll be happy with a place to live and any kind of career now. I feel like I've given up too much of myself at this point --- and I'm dying to find a way to get myself back ... to return to a state of childish wonder where the world seem conquerable. Now -- if I can conquer my own fears and lack of confidence, I would consider that an achievement. 

I made goals and plans since I came here --- but I failed to launch because I was suicidal for pretty much all of it.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

@Jawz - i added a few thoughts and questions about type 3 in you, that are on my mind right now, to my last post - sorry, i should have made a new post entirely...that's the first part of my answer, but i'll write about intuition later .


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

@Jawz, I have a thought that I can't shake and I will share it with you if you would like brutal honesty. I warn though, it might not make you happy.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> @_Jawz_, I have a thought that I can't shake and I will share it with you if you would like brutal honesty. I warn though, it might not make you happy.


I'm not looking to be made happy at this point


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> I'm not looking to be made happy at this point


Ok, I think this comes from knowing you are sort of a shapeshifter, and I think it's clouding my thoughts, or not...

I am seeing a lot of Si because many of your answers refer back to things you know that work. Here's where it gets sticky:

1) I can't decide if what I'm seeing is in fact Si.
2) I can't decide if what I'm seeing is Si, that you are a genuine Si user, or...
3) you want us to see Si and you want us to see you in an unhealthy state, because if we see you in an unhealthy state, that could lead us to conclude you must be an Ne Dom since Si is the inferior function. 

And THAT is how an Ne Dom can be wacky! Haha!


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

Jawz said:


> @_Enfpleasantly_ ---- Analyze what you see as you see it. I don't want any thought left unexplored at this point.
> @_emerald sea_ --- I honestly wonder if I started directing how I want people to response and with what, then in a way I feel like I'm creating a bias towards self-validation through _your _words instead of scrutiny of my statements. So .. how you go about this is entirely your wish.
> 
> 
> ...


this is so sad. i can't wait until the day when you break completely free from all those fears and can be who you really want to be. i know that day will come, because you are hungry for it and have already taken the first several steps. 

if you think in your mind - as far as personality traits - who you wanted to be, who you felt your family held you back from being (not in terms of career but in terms of personality) - those are traits that constitute that elusive real you that you are so longing to discover. whoever you are is to be embraced.  if ENFJ is the image that you took on to get the approval of your family, but (to pick a random other type) ISTP is the real you, then be ISTP. all we are trying to help you do is uncover and recover that valuable hidden real you. and as your friends, we will still love you, whatever type you are. 

p.s. i'm still [insert old username here] at heart - so you can still call me "sea" or "Jess" like you used to. none of this formality stuff, lol


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Ok, I think this comes from knowing you are sort of a shapeshifter, and I think it's clouding my thoughts, or not...
> 
> I am seeing a lot of Si because many of your answers refer back to things you know that work. Here's where it gets sticky:
> 
> ...


Hehe .. Well, rest assured that #3 really is a wacky tangent  The thought hadn't even occurred to me this time. I made it my goal to be brutally honest as well. 

I would really appreciate one of the Si users @_Owfin_ and @_Stephen_ to please come in and tell me if they see Si in the questionnaire below  

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...what-would-his-other-type-12.html#post2508609


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

If I had to guess, I'd still say ESFJ for some reason. I think I'm seeing lots of Fe and Si. I'm seriously no expert at all though!


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

:kitteh: (_*<- That's not a kitteh. It's a devil!)*_
And I'm thinking Si because Mr. Jawzie seems to be avoiding to look into the things I suggested. 

But I actually thought I saw some Si when you described the birdie pic. It only isn't consistent with what you wrote afterwards...afaik...but ESFJ is still a very blurry type for me anyway...

...and if you're really an ESFJ...I'd have to appologise to Mynameisnick - whom I'm not going to mention in here right now :wink:- because he said you're an ESFJ from the beginning.:shocked:


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Of I had to guess, I'd still say ESFJ for some reason. I think I'm seeing lots of Fe and Si. I'm seriously no expert at all though!


But .. but .. you were the one who saw NeFi first o.0 










:tongue:

I'm as lost as everyone else :laughing:


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> :kitteh: (_*<- That's not a kitteh. It's a devil!)*_
> And I'm thinking Si because Mr. Jawzie seems to be avoiding to look into the things I suggested.
> 
> But I actually thought I saw some Si when you described the birdie pic. It only isn't consistent with what you wrote afterwards...afaik...but ESFJ is still a very blurry type for me anyway...


I should mention that I'm a photographer --- so I had to train myself to notice a lot more things than most other people :tongue:

Edit: 1122 views in less than 22 hours of thread creation ...


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Jawz said:


> But .. but .. you were the one who saw NeFi first o.0
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought I saw it...I was definitely off, or you were playing it up...one of the two


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

jawz said:


> "yeah -- that's true"
> "Oh .. that's true as well"
> "Hmm .. is this my preference? Or rationalization --- yeah .. it's a preference in some situations -- rationalization in others


Heavens yes, I know exactly what you mean, and it seems like a lot of Ni's out there are right there with us  

The way you describe things above sounds a lot like Ni to me - not so much Ne. A lot of times, Ne and Ni are mixed up because they share the generalized word "possibility" in personality literature (Keirsey, etc) - but I like to think of Ne as one juncture where all roads meet, and Ni as one juncture from which many veering roads begin, at least in an operative sense. Your quote here sounds more like the latter than the former to me - what's your take on it? 

The other thing about Ni is that it's subjective - that is, the connections come from Jawz and Jawz alone. This seems to be where the "symbol" idea comes from - INTJ's are like coconuts; hard on the outside but mellow and even kind inside once cracked, etc. That seems a lot more in-out than out-in to me, but maybe that's just Ni talking!

It's still a bit weird to consider a non-ENFJ Jawz, haha.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

@PlushWitch ... Just for you -- I'm gonna re-up the video that I made several months ago  I'll do it tomorrow. Maybe someone can analyse the eye movements then


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Jawz said:


> @_PlushWitch_ ... Just for you -- I'm gonna re-up the video that I made several months ago  I'll do it tomorrow. Maybe someone can analyse the eye movements then


YAY! 

I just hope @Pier 56 will be available then...cause the analysis needs to be done the same way it's always been done. I could try something. But it wouldn't be the same. And he has the data. You could also mention him when posting. O


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

LXPilot said:


> Heavens yes, I know exactly what you mean, and it seems like a lot of Ni's out there are right there with us
> 
> The way you describe things above sounds a lot like Ni to me - not so much Ne. A lot of times, Ne and Ni are mixed up because they share the generalized word "possibility" in personality literature (Keirsey, etc) - but I like to think of Ne as one juncture where all roads meet, and Ni as one juncture from which many veering roads begin, at least in an operative sense. Your quote here sounds more like the latter than the former to me - what's your take on it?
> 
> ...


Aha. Now that I have your attention --- a distant Ni cousin ... tell me what you think of this blog I wrote during the time I was -- I would say at my best. Perhaps exactly explaining my thought processes aren't working out as well as perhaps something I've written on the spur of the moment might. 

I hope you don't mind analyzing this? 

--
*
What does your work say about you? *

Waiting to re-insert myself into the job market, having rejected the temptations and un-unionized thanklessness of the corporate world, I decided to do some "networking" on Linkedin. If you don't know what Linkedin is, then you're either somebody's Grandparent, or have been living under a rock for the past 5 years. In any case, Linkedin is a professional networking site, just like facebook, but with a more "professional" twist - no pun intended.

Growing up, I learnt that it was just not a socially acceptable thing for one man to ask another about what he did for a living. I remember my father's curt message, "Never ask a woman her age, and a man his salary!". I grew with up that. But with time, things have changed. They've gone from simply telling people that "Yeah, I've got a good job." to over-blown job titles and company histories, elaborate unnecessary details about the careers and over-exaggerated half-truths about wages and the job importance - elaborate stories that seem like they've been rehearsed and repeated to convince the speaker more than the listener.To top it off, if someone isn't being pompous and obnoxious about his job, then he has to deal with coming across as jobless, in-between jobs or working for poor pay. If a person doesn't speak about his job or business, but still has all the amenities of a highly successful individual, then he's austrasized as either being corrupt, or into some "shady" business. 

In direct opposition to the disciplined corporate worker is the entrepreneur. The world has a whole slew of entrepreneurs who may be running mildly successful ventures. But unfortunately receive no respect from the Corporate denizen. "CEO" of "Akram and Sons" will generate many laughs amongst business school graduates and Marketing Managers. Simply because of the perceived notion that in Pakistan, everybody is a CEO. It doesn't matter if Akram and his Sons may be earning more than say "CEO" of "Standard Chartered Bank Pakistan Limited". And that is the real truth. "Akram and Sons" is more likely to be more successful, more quickly, and for longer than a business graduate strung up on a corporate ladder. 

The case of the self-enterprise versus the attachment to an organization is part of the selling of the "Corporate Dream". This corporate dream is planted within us (us of the Middle Class origin i.e.) at a very young age. Notions of "status", "job security" and "wealth" are used to replace our childhood desires of being "creative", "educated" and "inspired". Skill-less individuals are churned out from the school systems by the millions and are assimilated in an increasingly competitive environment. But, any corporate worker will tell you that his/her education was useless because the real learning happened in the job environment. So then why spend years if a system is so useless? First we create our own perceptions of what our status should be and then we spend more than half our lives trying to fulfill our own perceptions. In essence we trap ourselves in our own web. So, the only way left of distinguishing ourselves is by languishing elaborate stories of self-importance through titles, work environment, employer standing and wages. 

As I went through searching for friends and colleagues, I couldn't help but feel a little voyeuristic even more so than facebook. On facebook, you can choose to ignore certain details about people. But on Linkedin, they're right there in your face. The "Headline", the current job position and company, past companies, past education etc etc. What I found common amongst all the people I searched for were their job titles. Each and every job title seemed less like a real job and more like a few words strung together to fulfill a person's own expectations of his status. In effect just one of the strings of the spider's web. I've been guilty of the same. And I will continue to remain trapped in this web, because I choose to. I want to feel trapped, because being trapped gives me the security I need. I call it a spider's web. You may call it job security. 

In the end, the work we do no longer defines us as people. Just as Marx predicted in his brilliant works on worker estrangement / alienation. The worker is no longer associated with what he produces, but rather the menial under-pinnings of various functions required to produce. In most cases the worker no longer even knows where production occurs let alone understand the whole system of production. The financial worker can no longer even define the word money, let alone define its value.

Perhaps there are still a few enterprises and professions left that we can be proud of. And interestingly, as pointed out by Marx, those are jobs that require creativity. However, the corporate world pisses on the artist, steals from the musician (or creates carbon copies and mass produces him/her till he/she again becomes worthless). I just hope that one day people will wake up and remember that it's not where you work that defines you, it's what you create that defines you. 

Waiting to re-insert myself into the job market, having rejected the temptations and un-unionized thanklessness of the corporate world, I decided to do some "networking" on Linkedin. If you don't know what Linkedin is, then you're either somebody's Grandparent, or have been living under a rock for the past 5 years. In any case, Linkedin is a professional networking site, just like facebook, but with a more "professional" twist - no pun intended.

Growing up, I learnt that it was just not a socially acceptable thing for one man to ask another about what he did for a living. I remember my father's curt message, "Never ask a woman her age, and a man his salary!". I grew with up that. But with time, things have changed. They've gone from simply telling people that "Yeah, I've got a good job." to over-blown job titles and company histories, elaborate unnecessary details about the careers and over-exaggerated half-truths about wages and the job importance - elaborate stories that seem like they've been rehearsed and repeated to convince the speaker more than the listener.To top it off, if someone isn't being pompous and obnoxious about his job, then he has to deal with coming across as jobless, in-between jobs or working for poor pay. If a person doesn't speak about his job or business, but still has all the amenities of a highly successful individual, then he's austrasized as either being corrupt, or into some "shady" business. 

In direct opposition to the disciplined corporate worker is the entrepreneur. The world has a whole slew of entrepreneurs who may be running mildly successful ventures. But unfortunately receive no respect from the Corporate denizen. "CEO" of "Akram and Sons" will generate many laughs amongst business school graduates and Marketing Managers. Simply because of the perceived notion that in Pakistan, everybody is a CEO. It doesn't matter if Akram and his Sons may be earning more than say "CEO" of "Standard Chartered Bank Pakistan Limited". And that is the real truth. "Akram and Sons" is more likely to be more successful, more quickly, and for longer than a business graduate strung up on a corporate ladder. 

The case of the self-enterprise versus the attachment to an organization is part of the selling of the "Corporate Dream". This corporate dream is planted within us (us of the Middle Class origin i.e.) at a very young age. Notions of "status", "job security" and "wealth" are used to replace our childhood desires of being "creative", "educated" and "inspired". Skill-less individuals are churned out from the school systems by the millions and are assimilated in an increasingly competitive environment. But, any corporate worker will tell you that his/her education was useless because the real learning happened in the job environment. So then why spend years if a system is so useless? First we create our own perceptions of what our status should be and then we spend more than half our lives trying to fulfill our own perceptions. In essence we trap ourselves in our own web. So, the only way left of distinguishing ourselves is by languishing elaborate stories of self-importance through titles, work environment, employer standing and wages. 

As I went through searching for friends and colleagues, I couldn't help but feel a little voyeuristic even more so than facebook. On facebook, you can choose to ignore certain details about people. But on Linkedin, they're right there in your face. The "Headline", the current job position and company, past companies, past education etc etc. What I found common amongst all the people I searched for were their job titles. Each and every job title seemed less like a real job and more like a few words strung together to fulfill a person's own expectations of his status. In effect just one of the strings of the spider's web. I've been guilty of the same. And I will continue to remain trapped in this web, because I choose to. I want to feel trapped, because being trapped gives me the security I need. I call it a spider's web. You may call it job security. 

In the end, the work we do no longer defines us as people. Just as Marx predicted in his brilliant works on worker estrangement / alienation. The worker is no longer associated with what he produces, but rather the menial under-pinnings of various functions required to produce. In most cases the worker no longer even knows where production occurs let alone understand the whole system of production. The financial worker can no longer even define the word money, let alone define its value.

Perhaps there are still a few enterprises and professions left that we can be proud of. And interestingly, as pointed out by Marx, those are jobs that require creativity. However, the corporate world pisses on the artist, steals from the musician (or creates carbon copies and mass produces him/her till he/she again becomes worthless). I just hope that one day people will wake up and remember that it's not where you work that defines you, it's what you create that defines you. 

----


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

@_Jawz_, about Si:

- when you experience things currently are you always comparing them to past experiences (differences in sensory details, i mean what they look like, how they sound, the timing, etc.)?
- do you have a sensorily photographic memory of the past and does your memory of sensory details, dates, and exact words people said amaze intuitives? 
- do you feel most comfortable with the familiar, that which you have experienced before, and is change jarring to you?
- does it disturb you when someone breaks with tradition or tries a new way of doing something rather than the tried-and-true, always-been-done-this-way method?
- do you tend to expect people to act now the way they acted in the past?
- are the possibilities your mind considers, in interpreting events, limited to what you have experienced before or that others have experienced but you have been an indirect participant, or do they include anything that's actually possible?
- are you hesitant to feel sure of anything unless there is external, experiential (not talking about having a feeling or anything internal) evidence of it? 
- does it annoy you when people perpetually look beyond the surface of things or extrapolate the possibilities more than looking at what is actually there right before your eyes? 

i don't honestly see Si in you - i see Se, but the questions above should help you clarify how much you use Si. to be frank, you can use Si but it not be anywhere in your top 3 functions, so use of it doesn't exactly prove anything. i use Si, but it's low on the list. lol

i'm going to quote something i wrote in another thread about Ni vs. Si - 



> cognitive functions are preferences, not necessarily either/or propositions. you can use both in a pair of opposite functions (like Ni and Si) - but one of them you will use _more_ than the other. the one you use more is your preference.
> 
> in your signature you have the 8 cognitive functions listed, each with a number value assigned. the larger the number, the greater the usage of that function by your brain. preference of course is relative, so you compare the usage of one function to the usage of its opposite function in order to determine preference: you prefer Ni over Si, Fi over Fe, Te over Ti, and Ne over Se.
> 
> ...


sorry if this is late, spent some time looking for the post to quote here, hope you all haven't already moved on to a new topic. lol


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Jawz said:


> I would really appreciate one of the Si users @_Owfin_ and Stephen to please come in and tell me if they see Si in the questionnaire below


A little sensing (not sure if Si or Se, really), yes, but in general, intuitive. In your observations on the bird picture you were looking a lot at what you thought the photographer might have been thinking or the photgrapher's intentions, whereas an S type would be more likely to make comments on subjects related to the picture itself or stuff related to the visual appearance of the picture (which might lead into an ancedote later on). You also note the validity of your gut in making decisions.

So, not really much sensing going on. Now, the part that I'm trying to determine, is what role the intuition's really playing here. I'm getting the impression that its being commandeered by a dominant judging function, but if I actually look at what you directly say I can't pinpoint a specific citation.

Do you tend to rank or judge your premonitions, determining which ones are most probable or accurate?


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

@_emerald sea_ ---

*- when you experience things currently are you always comparing them to past experiences (differences in sensory details, i mean what they look like, how they sound, the timing, etc.)?*

Sometimes. *always* is such an absolute therefore this question in itself needs to be considered flawed. If it had said most of the time, I would still have said no. 

Sensory details are the worst for me. It's like .. I can get a sense of how something felt to me ... call it an .. emotional memory? Do you know what that's like ... I remember how something made me feel. Like I know how my mom's hand-made pancakes make me feel .. but I don't know what they taste like. However, if she makes them now using the same ingredients, I will get a strong feeling of being a child once again -- but not for long. 


*- do you have a sensorily photographic memory of the past and does your memory of sensory details, dates, and exact words people said amaze intuitives? *

I dunno --- you guys are intuitives here --- have you guys noticed a lot of these things in my posts? I know I can remember some stuff very clearly ... but I have to really, really concentrate. However, I have to mention here that my memory even though has never been good --- it's functional in the real world. I keep notes, memories, reminders. I have to carry around a bucket of memoirs which contain triggers to experiences I know I will forget if I don't look through them every now and then. 


*- do you feel most comfortable with the familiar, that which you have experienced before, and is change jarring to you?
*
I've migrated 4 times across 2 continents [preparing for my 5th] --- changed 6 schools --- changed 6 jobs --- changed university programs on the fly --- I like security [that's probably my 6 fix] - but change doesn't bother me. I'm too optimistic and future-oriented to stay rooted to a single thing for the rest of my life. 


*- does it disturb you when someone breaks with tradition or tries a new way of doing something rather than the tried-and-true, always-been-done-this-way method?

*No. Actually, I'm the tradition/rule breaker of the family. Even though I have done what my parents have asked of me most of my life, I usually found ways to put a spin on it. I broke the shackles of my religious upbringing 3 years ago after deep reflection and study. I'm in an inter-racial LDR. 

*- do you tend to expect people to act now the way they acted in the past?

*No ... everyone has a right to live the way they want to live as long they're not physically/emotionally harming them -- repressing freedoms or the like. 

*- are the possibilities your mind considers, in interpreting events, limited to what you have experienced before or that others have experienced but you have been an indirect participant, or do they include anything that's actually possible?
*
Not *anything* that's possible --- but definitely possibilities that others won't consider. This was especially true in my job as a Marketing Manager at a life insurance company. I came up with some unique ideas like renovating schools, giving books to schoolchildren in order to promote one of our Child Education life insurance plans. We received a lot of calls from parents after my initiative. I also created a campaign where I correlated Chess to Life Insurance --- which was something that just came to me overnight. I saw a picture of a fallen Chess Queen -- and my mind immediately said "Is your next move insured?" It turned into a massive nationwide advertising campaign beating out 3 advertising agencies. 
*
- are you hesitant to feel sure of anything unless there is experiential evidence of it? *

Could you elaborate this further, please. 

*- does it annoy you when people perpetually look beyond the surface of things or extrapolate the possibilities more than looking at what is actually there right before your eyes? *

I feel energized by it and willingly participate with my own thoughts and ideas. What's right there is sooo boring .. what's underneath the surface is so much more alluring. I like to undress people's minds and I'm not shy to admit it.


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## Elinor Dashwood (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm just popping in to say hi! Since I was called upon. But I am really not a typer at all. I still haven't managed to type myself to my satisfaction! I thought ENFJ was pretty good for you. Certainly, you have always struck me as an extrovert with introverted tendencies, and definitely as a feeler. But again... not a typer.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

@_Jawz_, what i just posted about Ni leaves out some key elements of it - the gut feelings, the hunches, etc.
and it implies, but doesn't spell out, the associative nature of Ni - the agent is making connections between different pieces of data, seeing how they relate to one another, in coming to conclusions. but you knew all that already.  i don't feel like i could give you any explanation of Ni that would be news to you. 

there is a lot of evidence of intuition in the way you think, as expressed in your posts.  

i defined Ni and talked about how it works, in several posts in this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/infj-for...erted-intuition-vs-extraverted-intuition.html 

it's too long to quote it here or i would...but it's everything i wanted to say to you when you asked us intuitives to talk to you about our use of Ni...and also discusses Ni vs. Ne.

EDIT: just read your answers to the Si questions - based on that it seems clear that Si isn't in your top 3 functions. i don't want to speak in absolutes but everything inside me is shouting "intuitive! intuitive! intuitive! definitely, clearly, absolutely, no evidence of strong Si!" in reading that post. 

...and the question you wanted me to elaborate on was asking if you could believe something if it was (figuratively speaking) below the surface, not able to be experienced by the senses, and there was not noticeable evidence of it on the surface.


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## Tyche (May 12, 2011)

@Jawz

You somehow managed to double paste your blog. Si fail much? :tongue:


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

@Owfin, couldn't Fe be making him focus on what the photographer is thinking? Maybe if he's Fe dom and Si aux, his Si will be a little more people oriented? Just a thought that might have zero merit, haha!


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## Tyche (May 12, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> @_Owfin_, couldn't Fe be making him focus on what the photographer is thinking? Maybe if he's Fe dom and Si aux, his Si will be a little more people oriented? Just a thought that might have zero merit, haha!


Him being a photographer is likely what has him focused on what the photographer is thinking.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Etherea said:


> @_Jawz_
> 
> You somehow managed to double paste your blog. Si fail much? :tongue:


Nice catch ... hon ?


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Etherea said:


> Him being a photographer is likely what has him focused on what the photographer is thinking.


Maybe @Jawz could also turn off his photographer mind for a bit and then describe some different pictures... just paying attention the the picture and not to the photographer or techniques...? Or just use paintings or drawings or stuff...? :laughing:


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## Tyche (May 12, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> Maybe @_Jawz_ could also turn off his photographer mind for a bit and then describe some different pictures... just paying attention the the picture and not to the photographer or techniques...? Or just use paintings or drawings or stuff...? :laughing:


But then he couldn't show off his photography knowledge and throw around jargon


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Etherea said:


> But then he couldn't show off his photography knowledge and throw around jargon


oooh... yeah... that'd be a huge problem. I see. :crazy: lol


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Etherea said:


> Him being a photographer is likely what has him focused on what the photographer is thinking.


Very true...but I can't help but wonder if focusing on the photographer's thoughts is influenced by Fe. I could imagine a Te Dom photographer thinking about the lens and technique used, perhaps thinking they would've chose a different one, etc. Maybe an Se Dom photographer would think about the angle in order to make the photograph look as nice as possible...of course, maybe I'm over thinking it.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

@Etherea --- I was talking to you -- and I was trying to answer all the posts in this thread -- plus my nephew and mom came into the room at the same time. I was multi-tasking all three at the same time. 

So when I switched back to the page, I was under the impression that I hadn't pasted anything .. so I just pasted and submitted. I usually review all my posts --- I did notice however that it seemed a little longer than it should -- but I kinda over-looked it as my imagination and started answering @emerald sea's post  

As for the photography thing --- I really have to ask why simply noticing details in a picture are Si .. are Ni and Ne users incapable of observing even minor details?


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Khys said:


> @_Jawz_ just curious, have you ever looked into Depersonalization, Dissociation, and Derealization?
> 
> I studied these a lot the last year and realized how much my previous trauma had caused some of these conditions in a mild sense. My whole sense of self became so much clearer afterwards, and it helped me bring the fractured parts of myself together.
> 
> Anyways, just a thought. This article was helpful to me: https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1794/1801/Diss_9_2_6_ORC_rev.pdf?sequence=4


I'll look it up now. 

Another thing I have always had in the back of my head is this: Third Culture Kid ... It was brought to my attention by another forum member. And it also describes a lot of my struggles in life and reasons for them. 

I'm building everything up. 

If there are 1,000 reasons why this happened --- so I'm going to find all of the ones that make the most sense to me. 



> A Third Culture Kid (TCK) is a person who has spent a significant part of [their] developmental years outside the parents' culture. *The TCK frequently builds relationships to all of the cultures, while not having full ownership in any. Although elements from each culture may be assimilated into the TCK's life experience, the sense of belonging is in relationship to others of similar background.*





> TCKs also tend to come from families that are closer than non-TCK families. They will also have a smaller likelihood of having divorced parents (divorced parents are unlikely to allow their former spouse to take their child to another country). "Because the nuclear family is the only consistent social unit through all moves, family members are psychologically thrown back on one another in a way that is not typical in geographically stable families."[10] It has been observed that TCKs may be more prone to abuse as the family can become too tight knit. *"The strength of [the] family bond works to the benefit of children when parent-child communication is good and the overall family dynamic is healthy.* It can be devastating when it is not.... Physical, sexual and emotional abuse may go unnoticed or unacknowledged by others for a variety of reasons, such as misguided notions about 'respecting privacy', or fear of repatriation or family disgrace with colleagues".





> Many TCKs take years to readjust to their passport countries. *They often suffer a reverse culture shock upon their return, and are often perpetually homesick for their adopted country. Many third culture kids face an identity crisis: they don't know where they come from. It would be typical for a TCK to say that he is a citizen of a country, but with nothing beyond his passport to define that identification for him. Such children usually find it difficult to answer the question, "Where are you from?"
> *
> Compared to their peers who have lived their entire lives in a single culture, TCKs have a globalized culture.* Others can have difficulty relating to them. It is hard for TCKs to present themselves as a single cultured person, which makes it hard for others who have not had similar experiences to accept them for who they are. They know bits and pieces of at least two cultures, yet most of them have not fully experienced any one culture making them feel incomplete or left out by other children who have not lived overseas. They often build social networks among themselves and prefer to socialize with other TCKs.*


So .. it's not just MBTI / Enneagrams etc that I've looked into. There's a lot more unexpressed thoughts and ideas that I haven't verbalised which is slowly being built upon to complete the picture of who I am.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

Jawz said:


> @_Julia Bell_ --- I was just telling @_Etherea_ about how little effect all this scrutiny is having on my emotions. And this is very true. I've seen other individuals lose control over their emotions/get frustrated about scrutiny etc --- but it doesn't bother me. I'm scanning for possible explanations - and no I'm not in this for the perfect answer / solution to all of my life's problems.
> 
> What I'm scanning for is to develop the ability to create a sort of fortitude so as to NOT let any behaviour that has led me to disaster repeat itself in any way.
> 
> ...


Well, then I see no issues here.  MBTI and Enneagram are definitely good tools. I hope I haven't been quite so scrutinizing. Well, I do hope I've been somewhat helpful.  It seems you're on the right track from what I'm reading and what I have read. ^_^ As for what you have and have not been resonating with, and how you are beginning to see you are probably an ENTP - I trust your decision on that. You should also trust yourself too, on this. I think you do. Just making sure. XD


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Julia Bell said:


> Well, then I see no issues here.  MBTI and Enneagram are definitely good tools. I hope I haven't been quite so scrutinizing. Well, I do hope I've been somewhat helpful.  It seems you're on the right track from what I'm reading and what I have read. ^_^ As for what you have and have not been resonating with, and how you are beginning to see you are probably an ENTP - I trust your decision on that. You should also trust yourself too, on this. I think you do. Just making sure. XD


It's not that I'm beginning to see myself as an ENTP --- at the back of my mind, I never stopped. And I've repeatedly brought it up as mild hints and nudges with my closest friends and SO --- and left the exploration when met with immediate resistance/rejection of my ideas. It's a problem I've faced all my life.

I've even made mild comments designed as jokes across the forum "Others have thought I might be an ENTP" ... kinda testing to see if anyone would pick up on the fact as to why I keep bringing it up.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Here's another example of when I was seriously doubting myself as an ENFJ which I posted in the ENFJ section. I just want to put it back here --- and ask people to re-read it from the perspective of someone who's really _*not *_an ENFJ talking about himself --- and not just someone who's frustrated with the label. 

Posted on: 01-02-2012 10:29 AM

http://personalitycafe.com/enfj-forum-givers/80376-i-really-doubt-im-enfj.html



> Seriously, given the last few months and some interactions here in this section alone - I'm really, really beginning to doubt that I'm an ENFJ at all. I can't stop testing as an ENFJ - however, when I sit down and observe behaviours, as well as the seething judgemental natures of other ENFJ's etc, I really, really begin to doubt whether I am one or not.
> 
> Being judgemental is something that I never was. Intuitively I've always been able to see multiple perspectives of a situation and driven by a need to empathise, I've always been able to overlook even the biggest 'transgressions'. In fact, I sometimes don't even see the biggest transgressions as transgressions.
> 
> ...


Heh ... Much of this is actually Ne-Ti -- especially the part about keeping opinions to myself .. about being non-judgemental. 

I'm taking this seriously now --- and I know many are as well --- and I really, really appreciate everyone's efforts and contributions. Just because I haven't responded to everyone doesn't mean that I've rejected their views or that I'm ignoring them. At this point I'm throwing out facts for consideration and re-consideration.

I compared much of what I wrote in this thread --- to descriptions about ENTP's which support the claim that ENTP's are non-judgemental -- that they create their own world-views by being able to see multiple perspectives:

Example:



> Unlike types with a dominant Judging function, ENTPs do not carefully screen and filter incoming information. They are truly among the most open-minded of all types when it comes to taking in outside information. However, just because they are permeable to new information does not mean they are quick to accept it as true. As ENTPs ingest the world over time, they naturally make connections and associations. They gradually develop, even if largely unintentionally, their own theories about the world and human nature. When these theories don’t square with conventional thinking, which is often the case, they grow increasingly skeptical and critical of majority viewpoints. So despite their status as Extraverts, ENTPs can often feel like outsiders, at least with respect to their worldview.


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Jawz said:


> It's not that I'm beginning to see myself as an ENTP --- at the back of my mind, I never stopped. And I've repeatedly brought it up as mild hints and nudges with my closest friends and SO --- and left the exploration when met with immediate resistance/rejection of my ideas. It's a problem I've faced all my life.
> 
> I've even made mild comments designed as jokes across the forum "Others have thought I might be an ENTP" ... kinda testing to see if anyone would pick up on the fact as to why I keep bringing it up.


Well... actually I could never fully see you as an ENFJ. Even though I don't - or rather didn't until you told me a friend of mine must be ENFJ :wink: - know much about ENFJs, something always bugged me (also because you didn't seem to be content with it). And none of the types I could think of really seemed to fit.

And when you dropped that remark about someone thinking you're an ENTP, it also seemed off because you seemed to have created an image of yourself packed with Fe and it's really hard to see the real you behind it all. Or did I actually think it possible? I don't remember. Even now all you've written after @_Etherea_'s kinda revealing post seems to be written to support that ENTP theory. So even though everything you write about yourself might finally be true, it really still feels put up...just like when you "were" an ENTJ.

The fact that you brought the ENTP thing up more than once just made me think that you might be forgetfull. lol Or maybe it was also in a group chat. So I thought some of the people might not have heard it before. :wink:

In theory, I could see the ENTP in you now. But something would still have to change before I can agree.

And I blame all this on the E3 as well.

EDIT: reading last post....might change some of my views... :laughing:


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> @_Etherea_'s kinda revealing post seems to be written to support that ENTP theory. So even though everything you write about yourself might finally be true, it really still feels put up...just like when you "were" an ENTJ.
> 
> The fact that you brought the ENTP thing up more than once just made me think that you might be forgetfull. lol Or maybe it was also in a group chat. So I thought some of the people might not have heard it before. :wink:
> 
> ...


Heh. Your reaction is one of the reasons why I waited so long to finally create this thread after going through a series of rejections. It was actually the E3 recognition / realization of deceptiveness .. building up of and belief in personas that finally unlocked everything in my mind. It was like multiple things zooming around in my head finally coming together. 

Of course --- is ENTP the final type I consider for myself? Probably not. I know I'm very different from many of the ENTP's on this forum .. is it my life experiences? Is it real, cognitive differences? That one is where I'm trying to get at. Is my difference based on cognition --- or based on Enneagrams ... in either case -- yes, I am unlike many other ENTP's but like them in many ways as well.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

@_Jawz_...because i didn't *Se* this coming, your *TiPe* revelation blew me away. *still taking deep breaths* the shock i *Fe*el has not dissipated but i *Fi*nd that people know themselves better than *Ne* of us do. it must be *Ni*ce, finally, to know your type...so i'll stop *Te*asing you about the shock factor involved. xD

/stops *Ti*ping here


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

emerald sea said:


> /stops *Ti*psying here


There ... fixed that for you xD


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

> Tipe revelation blew me away. *still taking deep breaths* the *shock* i Feel
> 
> ...
> 
> so i'll stop Teasing you about the *shock* factor involved. xD





> make it happen ~ *shock *everyone.


Oh and @emerald sea --- I dunno where I saw this but ....


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

there, now, @_Jawz_, you're sounding more like an ENTP. (*Te*asing re-initiated)

this world needs more shock distributors xD. shock can be therapeutic when it's good shock. hey, i have an enneatexcuse for it.


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

emerald sea said:


> @_Jawz_...because i didn't *Se* this coming, your *Ti*pe revelation blew me away. *still taking deep breaths* the shock i *Fe*el has not dissipated but i *Fi*nd that people know themselves better than *Ne* of us do. it must be *Ni*ce, finally, to know your type...so i'll stop *Te*asing you about the shock factor involved. xD
> 
> /stops *Ti*ping here


lol roud:
@Jawz Didn't you say once you have a relative or something who is an ENTP? I think you said you were different from them...? I think when we talked about it you talked YOURSELF out of being an ENTP...not sure though. Kinda blurry memory...could you help me sharpen it? ;D

I have a good friend who I always thought must be an INFJ. But since recently I'm thinking that he could actually be an ENTP...it's just a possibility I have in mind. ...and he's quite a paranoid and insecure 6 (sometimes with superiority complexes :wink...maybe with a 4w3 or 3w4 fix... lol... not sure...
And my brother-in-law is an ENTP. He could be a 9...953....or something...

Well...one thing they both have in common is that they have got huge problems with life and with themselves... might just be a coincidence...lol... yeah... others do have problems too... :laughing:

Oh yeah... and there's a former classmate...I think she might also be an ENTP...also had problems with herself and with life...
But then there's another guy...also a former classmate... who I also think might be ENTP... who didn't have any problems at all. But he was best friends with two INxx twins... uhm... whatever... that's just blah... disregard this cause I'm not going to delete it. lol


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

emerald sea said:


> there, now, @_Jawz_, you're sounding more like an ENTP.
> 
> this world needs more shock distributors xD. shock can be therapeutic when it's good shock. hey, i have an enneatexcuse for it.


But .. but .. I've pretty much always dealt a great deal of shock therapy on these forums  

Well .. I suppose I had a lot of inner confidence in me --- that I had forgotten. When it started re-surfacing, I literally went: "What the F's wrong with you dude --- get yourself together!!" --- and I am doing it now. I suppose I have created a bit of a hole for myself as well as others ... in fact, I feel like either I fooled myself or am continuing to do so. 

And when I did start recovering my confidence --- I started noticing all these little clues I had left all over PerC about my _real_ self buried beneath the other more intellectual stuff -- I just had to put it all together --- and that's what took time in the end. 

Anyways --- back to researching  I have given myself a couple of days to get through this -- but at the back of my mind, I know that just like my studies in Theology, this may very well take several years  --- But I believe that I'm closer than ever before.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

@Jawz: You seem to place greater importance on Fe than 99% of ENTPs I've seen do, but it wouldn't be the first time an ENTP has confused themselves for a feeler due to circumstances bringing out their Fe early. What is your approach to solving problems and setting goals?


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

Jawz said:


> But .. but .. I've pretty much always dealt a great deal of shock therapy on these forums
> 
> Well .. I suppose I had a lot of inner confidence in me --- that I had forgotten. When it started re-surfacing, I literally went: "What the F's wrong with you dude --- get yourself together!!" --- and I am doing it now. I suppose I have created a bit of a hole for myself as well as others ... in fact, I feel like either I fooled myself or am continuing to do so.
> 
> ...


you have ~ and i was *Te*asing you back, didn't mean it seriously at all...had to play up the "shock" then "realization" factor...  

i think you are closer...all i know is that you weren't yourself when you joined this forum, and that (wonderfully) you are much more yourself now and can more clearly see your type. 

everyone has to keep *Ti*ping until they don't get the *syntax error, please try again* response and it all _does_ compute. xD if you're either at that point or closer to it than before, either way we're all happy for you, because it is another step towards complete freedom from that shell that has had you trapped for so long.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Dark Romantic said:


> @_Jawz_: You seem to place greater importance on Fe than 99% of ENTPs I've seen do, but it wouldn't be the first time an ENTP has confused themselves for a feeler due to circumstances bringing out their Fe early. What is your approach to solving problems and setting goals?


It would depend on the kind of problem it is. Each problem has its own unique solution or even multiple solutions. Sometimes, I don't solve problems and let someone else do it as well. Especially if it's a problem that I can't immediately see a solution to myself. 

- I also fly by my gut sometimes and just do whatever makes sense or pops into my head. Sometimes its sequential based on things that I've picked up from others. Sometimes I follow instructions .. sometimes I just kinda tinker around with stuff -- I call it a trial and error method approach. Sometimes if it doesn't work, I just smack it to see if it would  

- Of course, I also make decisions based on how I feel as well. I get an instinctual sense of what I need to do and then I go about doing it .. if I can. If can't, then I try to manipulate things in my favour ... and if everything fails, I just move on to something new. 

- Goals? I set goals based on what I believe will get me the most success. I also look at comfort. Interest is very important to me. I have to be really interested in what I do otherwise I won't do it. 

I mean -- I had the option of going for a call centre job --- but the idea of sitting in a booth answering phones all day made me kinda suicidal, so I decided to stay out of it. 

See ... practically implementing stuff is an issue for me. Staying rooted to one particular goal has always been a headache .. a pain in the ass [excuse the french]. Even after I did my MBA .. my only goal was to just get a job which would allow me to be creative .. of course, money and success go hand in hand .. so I made sure that the first job I took was both financially sufficient as well as allowed me to be in Television media ---- but soon as they moved me from Marketing [which was my core interest] to sales --- and tried to dictate how I should do my job, I quit .. it also coincided with my knee surgery incidentally. So I got an excuse to get out of that job. 

Also ... when it comes to goals --- winning and succeeding are important, but they are intertwined with love and my own interest level. What I'm trying to say here is that I loved my ex to death -- I wanted the marriage to succeed on all levels --- I just made it a stronger priority. I always knew that with an MBA, I can switch my career around .. but in my culture you don't just switch around mates [even though deep down I really wanted to] ... I felt trapped in my marriage .. so towards the last 6 months or so, I just told her to leave me and she did. 

The one job where I had EVERYTHING I ever wanted [it was project oriented -- meaning we worked 6 months and just played XBox in the office for the other 6 months] was lost because of my second accident in 2008 .. since then I haven't been able to find anything that I could find both financially satisfying as well as appealing to my interests. I was very interested in my Marketing job in my last career --- but I had a nagging pain in my knee. I was given the option of coming to Canada to explore my health ... and I just did a very quick pros and cons and decided to fly without really paying any attention to what might happen after. Honestly, I wasn't really interested in my last job either --- but I loved it at the same time. I was a Business Development Manager and it allowed me a great deal of freedom to do things my way. However, I started feeling a little ... "controlled" because they started pushing targets on me towards the end --- so that aspect of it also played up in my decision to move to Canada. 

But I left things open-ended --- I'm still in touch with my previous management and they're ok with me returning to Pakistan. I've also talked to a friend of mine and she's willing to give me the contract for her company's marketing and promotions on a 4 month contract if I go back. I plan to take it if I do go back. 

So .. yeah .. I just wing it sometimes ... even though I love to be secure as well. I would love to have a creative job that I can do for the rest of my life --- but given my nature and past experience, I see myself falling into the same habit of quitting when ahead to try something new. However, I'm working on controlling that aspect of my personality once and for all.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Finaille said:


> people are failing to take measure the maturity levels of each function. *What we are running into is more self-actualized members; those who are extremely mature and exhibit maturity in both emotional and logical understanding*.


A-fuckin-men.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Yes, based on this, you sound ENTP, not ENFJ. Assuming you're not just answering in that way because you wanna be an ENTP... :wink: Your decisions and goals are primarily motivated by what you desire for yourself, and you have a difficult time sticking to one path, because what you desire often changes. This:



Jawz said:


> - I also fly by my gut sometimes and just do whatever makes sense or pops into my head. Sometimes its sequential based on things that I've picked up from others. Sometimes I follow instructions .. sometimes I just kinda tinker around with stuff -- I call it a trial and error method approach. Sometimes if it doesn't work, I just smack it to see if it would
> 
> - Of course, I also make decisions based on how I feel as well. I get an instinctual sense of what I need to do and then I go about doing it .. if I can. If can't, then I try to manipulate things in my favour ... and if everything fails, I just move on to something new.


is a pretty accurate way of describing the two ways in which ENTPs tend to do things; when we're just goofing off, we like to put things together to see what will happen (which is why ENTPs seem to have a reputation for being trolls...). When we actually want something, though, we're willing to do most anything to get it, will probably settle for the most convenient way to make it happen, and will drop everything if the goal is no longer worth it.



> - Goals? I set goals based on what I believe will get me the most success. I also look at comfort. Interest is very important to me. I have to be really interested in what I do otherwise I won't do it.


So basically, you set goals that will get you what you want. Definitely something ENTPs will relate to, not something I've come to expect from ENFJs, who would probably try to set goals that help people around them.



> I mean -- I had the option of going for a call centre job --- but the idea of sitting in a booth answering phones all day made me kinda suicidal, so I decided to stay out of it.


Did it. Hated it. Good call.



> See ... practically implementing stuff is an issue for me. Staying rooted to one particular goal has always been a headache .. a pain in the ass [excuse the french]. Even after I did my MBA .. my only goal was to just get a job which would allow me to be creative .. of course, money and success go hand in hand .. so I made sure that the first job I took was both financially sufficient as well as allowed me to be in Television media ---- but soon as they moved me from Marketing [which was my core interest] to sales --- and tried to dictate how I should do my job, I quit .. it also coincided with my knee surgery incidentally. So I got an excuse to get out of that job.


How interesting... again, there's a focus on satisfying the need to explore and play around with your creative energy, not one on helping others and making a positive difference on the world around you. Not that ENTPs won't do that, just that it's not very high on our list of priorities unless either a) we benefit from it somehow, or b) we're doing something else that happens to have that effect.



> Also ... when it comes to goals --- winning and succeeding are important, but they are intertwined with love and my own interest level. What I'm trying to say here is that I loved my ex to death -- I wanted the marriage to succeed on all levels --- I just made it a stronger priority. I always knew that with an MBA, I can switch my career around .. but in my culture you don't just switch around mates [even though deep down I really wanted to] ... I felt trapped in my marriage .. so towards the last 6 months or so, I just told her to leave me and she did.


To be quite honest, I could see myself doing the same thing. If I felt trapped in a situation and heading towards a rut, I would begin to take any measures necessary to escape. Even at the cost of the relationships between me and any loved ones, if it came to that. While I can't say that an ENFJ would NEVER do that... I believe that preserving the relationship would be a higher priority for one.



> The one job where I had EVERYTHING I ever wanted [it was project oriented -- meaning we worked 6 months and just played XBox in the office for the other 6 months] was lost because of my second accident in 2008 .. since then I haven't been able to find anything that I could find both financially satisfying as well as appealing to my interests. I was very interested in my Marketing job in my last career --- but I had a nagging pain in my knee. I was given the option of coming to Canada to explore my health ... and I just did a very quick pros and cons and decided to fly without really paying any attention to what might happen after. Honestly, I wasn't really interested in my last job either --- but I loved it at the same time. I was a Business Development Manager and it allowed me a great deal of freedom to do things my way. However, I started feeling a little ... "controlled" because they started pushing targets on me towards the end --- so that aspect of it also played up in my decision to move to Canada.


Mmmm... that job sounds awesome. Was it in marketing? I've actually been considering that career path, myself, not to mention the fact that I do want to get into an MBA program.



> But I left things open-ended --- I'm still in touch with my previous management and they're ok with me returning to Pakistan. I've also talked to a friend of mine and she's willing to give me the contract for her company's marketing and promotions on a 4 month contract if I go back. I plan to take it if I do go back.


Hmm... I smell an opportunity to negotiate! :wink: I'd definitely consider taking it, though I don't know what other factors are involved here.



> So .. yeah .. I just wing it sometimes ... even though I love to be secure as well. I would love to have a creative job that I can do for the rest of my life --- but given my nature and past experience, I see myself falling into the same habit of quitting when ahead to try something new. However, I'm working on controlling that aspect of my personality once and for all.


Yes, I know what you mean. It's irritating knowing your weaknesses and yet, falling into the same patterns. I'm getting better in that regard, but it's still quite difficult and gets in the way of success and happiness. For the record, this is a sentiment common to most ENTPs.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

formal riot said:


> @_Jawz_, but Battle Arena's can be fun..... ahhh well
> 
> again though I feel as if I knew a bit more about the motivation behind this whole thing, then perhaps I could be of a little more help.


You asked me this question, I'll give you my answer --- straight up -- no falsifications. 

- I was becoming more and more uncomfortable with the idea of being mistyped and inadvertently becoming a role model for younger ENFJ's. 

- I was spending a lot of time breaking stereotypes and in doing so may have been inadvertently giving wrong information [this started becoming clearer as time went on], so I wanted to set the record straight and allow people to make better informed decisions when it came to relating to me as an ENFJ

- I didn't want people to idealize me for something I may not be

- I did not want to become the cause of people mistyping others in their real life

- I had recently discovered just how deceptive I can really be when I took on the 4 and 9 Enneagram type [even fooling myself], and once I realized that I could have been doing the same for ENFJ, I decided to re-open the question of my type. I had been repeatedly told by others that I have tremendous convincing powers, and I sort of reflected that inward that perhaps I was using my own brain to convince myself of something that may not be true

- There were some real clues spread across the forum of my real self and I wanted to create this thread as a place where I could put all of those thoughts together

------

Some of the minor reasons:

- I have always related better to NT's than I did to NFs [At first I just thought that maybe I'm a different breed of NF, then I realized that maybe I'm not an NF period]
- My childhood was spent buried in books and encyclopaedias [especially reading on world history and geography] and selfishly pursuing my own interests and hobbies
- I didn't have any goals for my life till I did my MBA and even after that I had no set goals. I went where my latest curiousity led me. Another ENFJ on the forum once pointed out that non-judging types can't live with that kind of insecurity. I had brushed it off as a stereotype, but at the back of my mind I stored that information and left it there as a possible indicator of being mistyped
- I never really stopped doubting I was an ENFJ even after I settled on it and kept on exploring ENTP till I was relatively sure and I decided to "come out" in this thread
- I was no longer afraid of people's harsh judgements around "Jawz is a troll", or "Jawz is a fake" ... But getting closer and closer to my Enneagram made me realize that perhaps this was the right time to speak out, otherwise the hole might get deeper
- I felt I owed it to myself and my future relationship to make sure that I got my type right in case there was ever a chance that issues and weak areas that I might over-look may play up again

I have done a lot of good for this forum and people here. I know that many may think that this has all been a fake identity. But in my search for my identity, I have made some very real connections here that I don't want to lose over this. All of these things were playing up in my mind before I created this thread --- at this point, I'm really not sure about the "what next" -- But people's opinion of me matters to me to the point where as long as they believe that I have been genuine in my relationships with them and the way I have worked to cement/establish new friendships --- I'm going to be happy. However, if people feel like I've "trolled" them in some way --- then I want to assure them that it was inadvertent, and a result of my pursuit for myself. 

However, the help I have extended to others is real and genuine --- the research and analysis that went into all of my posts is all very real, and worthy of being related to as well. It's just that there were some very real moments when I would be describing things from an FeNi perspective where I myself had "are you really sure?" moments before I would refer between various sources of information to make sure that I never really said anything that was actually wrong/faked.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Your further posts, by the way, seem to demonstrate a sort of trust and reliance on your gut that has convinced me of dominant intuitiveness! Sure, I still feel like your auxiliary is feeling but eh, if I agree on the dominant I basically agree with 3/4 of it.

TL;DR - Vote of confidence. roud:


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Owfin said:


> Your further posts, by the way, seem to demonstrate a sort of trust and reliance on your gut that has convinced me of dominant intuitiveness! Sure, I still feel like your auxiliary is feeling but eh, if I agree on the dominant I basically agree with 3/4 of it.
> 
> TL;DR - Vote of confidence. roud:


Yeah .. I wanted to respond to your post about getting the vibe that my intuitiveness was being ruled by some sort of judging function --- and I believe that it is actually true. I think that my tertiary Fe has been leading for a good 15 years which is why the judgements that I have made about my academic choices, my relationship choices haven't actually panned out as well as they would for a dominant judger. 

I think I've been in either a severe Fe-Ne loop, or shadow typed as an ISFJ for far too long to really allow my intuition to help guide me. The only place where my Ne-Ti has really flourished has always been in the work environment where my bosses relied on my ability to strategize analytically. I have been responsible for creating entire corporate marketing plans, structuring advertising campaigns etc - and acting as the intellectual link in my departments. I have succeeded the most in jobs where my bosses relied on my intuition --- and have failed where my intuition was challenged and forced into a position of being second guessed. This was something that @_Etherea_ picked up on when I would describe my work experiences to her. 

I also want to highlight that I have gotten in trouble for lacking interpersonal skills at one of my previous jobs where my manager sort of forced me to take a few courses --- I think that aspect helped develop the Fe a bit more. I also read somewhere that ENTP's can use NeTiFe [when healthy] to help other individuals grow by sharing their own knowledge and ideas, which basically means that they kind of play the same mentoring role as is typical of ENFJ's.


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