# Hikikomori and the Enneagram - Any correlation with this social phenomenon?



## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

*DISCLAIMER*: *Do not use* my type conjectures and ponderings in this thread as a basis for your typing nor ascribe these characteristics to all people of that type!!! If you are say, a 9 and a recluse, this does not mean "it's a 9 thing." There are plenty of successful, outgoing 9s out there, so you should not use enneagram type (or any typology) as an absolute sort of diagnosis for how you are the way you are. Enneagram type I believe may play a ROLE, but *do not start making sweeping generalizations in this case.*

Been wanting to make this thread for some time.

I would like to know what sort of correlation you think there is between being a _*hikikomori *_and enneagram fixation, if any. Is extreme social reclusiveness a way of life? Or a mental disorder? Or does it occupy that lovely gray area? If there is a correlation between being a hikikomori and enneagram fixation, what connection might there be, in terms of type and instinct?



> _*Hikikomori*_ (ひきこもり or 引き籠もり _Hikikomori_[SUP]?[/SUP], literally "pulling inward, being confined", i.e., "acute social withdrawal") is a Japanese term to refer to the phenomenon of reclusive adolescents or adults who withdraw from social life, often seeking extreme degrees of isolation and confinement. The term _hikikomori_ refers to both the sociological phenomenon in general as well as to people belonging to this societal group. Hikikomori have been described as recluses, loners, or "modern-day hermits."


Hikikomori is a Japanese term describing a social phenomenon that is particularly common amongst modern Japanese culture in both teenagers and young adults. In essence, it is the behavioral pattern of extreme social withdrawal, reclusiveness, and isolation, often resulting in people who spend the vast majority of their daily life cooped up their homes. Unemployment is common.

Hikikomori - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





I'll tag @_Kink_ for this one, since you've seen NHK .

~~~~~

My thoughts:

At a glance, I'd say the withdrawn types 459 would be most prone to developing extreme levels of social reclusiveness, but thinking about it more, I've started to think that the instinctual variants play a bigger role, particularly those with heavy Sp-instinct or perhaps Soc-last individuals. The very nature of being a hikikomori or recluse seems conducive for the feeding the Sp-instinct's drive to be left to its own devices. The limitations of this correlation, of course, is that the Sp instinct could also encompass the desire for long-term stability and self-reliance, so the counterargument would be that Sp-heavy individual's emphasis and desire for autonomy might be at odds with being a social recluse, which often means codependency of relatives (i.e., who will pay the rent, for instance?).

In addition, I could feasibly see a type 6 retreat to a standpoint of social isolation if the level of uncertainty proves too overwhelming.

I have difficulty seeing: 8, 1, 3 or 7 being a hikikomori, on the other hand. (edit: I left out type 2, who I also have a tough time seeing majorly impacted in this way).


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Cue everyone saying all hikikomori are 5s and, as an afterthought, maybe really paranoid 6(w5)s.

Idk, I'm not really sure it's so much Enneagram as it is a neurosis. Is it a form of agoraphobia? Is it a result of feeling at odds with Japanese culture? What's the _reason _they become recluses, and how severe is it?

I don't leave my house that often, tbh. I'm unemployed and hate shopping/movies/etc. and can't find a volunteering gig, so I don't get out much. I also have social anxiety, _and_ I sometimes get really tired of being stared at everywhere I go ("omg a cripple is in public O_O"). My computer is my gateway to the outside world, which isn't ideal but is pretty okay. I'm not agoraphobic, though; to stay home is not exactly a choice I consciously make, but instead just ends up being what happens. 
Not sure if I would qualify as a hikikomori... maybe a hiki-lite?


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## Silverdawn (Jun 28, 2014)

NHK was sweet, I saw the anime awhile ago, I heard the manga was good too, although the story's a bit different.

I tested as a 2w3 the one time I did the enneagram quiz recently. I spend most of my time in my room but I'm not a full blown hikki (I still go to the toilet lol, go out when I can and so on). I can see some types being more vulnerable to that kind of problematic than others, sure, but I think it's mostly a question of environment and bad things happening. But I do agree that some types might more easily slip into social withdrawal than others.

A hikki is mostly mental illness in my opinion. Anxiety disorders is one of those illnesses that can cause someone to withdraw to the point that they won't even go out to...go to the toilet. I got an anxiety disorder so I can vouch for that. I have a hard time relating hikikomori with a simple lifestyle because to me, it's usually a sign that there's something wrong.

The shut-in problem is well known in Japan but I think it's spreading, and it seems to go hand in hand with how widespread technology and the internet is. I wouldn't be surprised if we start hearing more and more about it as time goes by. I'm wondering if it might even get worse as entertainment and the virtual world starts using more and more of our senses. What will happen when virtual reality becomes mainstream? Will the problem grow?

But anyway, it's an interesting subject and I do agree that some enneagram types will be more vulnerable to the shut-in syndrome than others, but I think it's still mostly a mental illness issue. Either that or you're very, very lazy. lol.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

hal0hal0 said:


> I have difficulty seeing: 8, 1, 3 or 7 being a hikikomori, on the other hand. (edit: I left out type 2, who I also have a tough time seeing majorly impacted in this way).


Maybe a 1w9 shutting themselves away from the world because it's just *too* imperfect. I don't know. Could still be 9w1ish if they become too avoidant I guess.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I was going to say 5-9 right away, but it's more complex than that.


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Paradigm said:


> Cue everyone saying all hikikomori are 5s and, as an afterthought, maybe really paranoid 6(w5)s.


Oops, that was not my intent with this thread :frustrating:. Ok, *nobody *start saying 5s or 6w5s are paranoid recluses off the bat or typing people on this basis alone [BAD ENNEAGRAM FORM]. I am not and have not been one to perpetuate bad stereotypes and that's not what I wish to do here. 

BUT, cannot the enneatype offer some _insight _into why you perhaps developed the habits that you developed and why you lead the lifestyle you lead to this day? Let's say I relate to avarice and detachment of the 5, and can recognize the consistent patterns of withholding, reservation, etc.. And let's say I'm also a social recluse. Independent of each other, being a 5 and a social recluse are part of who I am or how my life has transpired up to this point. Could not the enneagram fixation illuminate how certain fears, perhaps, have led me down that particular road?

I'm just very hesitant to take a hikikomori, slap the label of neurosis/disorder on it without considering the possibility that is simply either a preference or way of life to that particular _*individual*_.

I was more getting at the idea that since enneagram represents a general maladaptive approach to life (i.e., each type "deludes" themselves into a particular strategy or attitude that creates blindspots, weak points, etc.), that some type compulsions might be more conducive for in terms of becoming a social recluse.

I think the picture is more complex than saying: You are antisocial therefore you have a problem. I am so very, very hesitant to label all hikikomori as having a disorder right off the bat (i.e., some of them might need help, but maybe for some people, that is their preference?... For instance: If someone is asexual, does that mean they have a "problem" or is that, again, _*preference*_?). For instance, I socialize with friends about once a year. I spend the vast majority of my time alone (barring spending copious amounts of time online with y'all awesome folk). By all rights and by society's standards, I have a "problem." But I feel perfectly fine, I can go out of the house if need be, etc. I am actually an excellent public speaker and don't get stage fright, either. But my ability to develop social networks, interact with people in that social realm is sort of off my radar. I'm oblivious to so many things that other people are so in tune with.

What I am really getting at again has to do with the works of RD Laing: _*Is normal an illusion?*_ (and if we were to draw a line, how would it be done? On the individual basis, I would imagine).

Even though Laing is associated with the "anti-psychiatry" movement, I don't think he was suggesting that mental disorders don't _*exist*_ so much as the criteria for diagnosing them were too descriptive and objectively rigid in nature (i.e., "you don't hang out with friends very much; ergo you have a problem"). 



RD Laing said:


> “What we call ‘normal’ is a product of repression, denial, splitting, projection, introjection and other forms of destructive action on experience. It is radically estranged from the structure of being. The more one sees this, the more senseless it is to continue with generalized descriptions of supposedly specifically schizoid, schizophrenic, hysterical ‘mechanisms.’ There are forms of alienation that are relatively strange to statistically ‘normal’ forms of alienation. The ‘normally’ alienated person, by reason of the fact that he acts more or less like everyone else, is taken to be sane. Other forms of alienation that are out of step with the prevailing state of alienation are those that are labeled by the ‘formal’ majority as bad or mad.”
> 
> “Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.”





Paradigm said:


> Not sure if I would qualify as a hikikomori... maybe a hiki-lite?


I couldn't say, but I think you insanely insightful, considerate and think things through cogently and consistently (yeah yeah brown nosing ). If that's what "insanity" is, I don't want to know what normal is. Mmkay?

I have to go now, sorry if this is sloppy. Fascinating topic, at any rate.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

hal0hal0 said:


> Oops, that was not my intent with this thread :frustrating:. Ok, *nobody *start saying 5s or 6w5s are paranoid recluses off the bat or typing people on this basis alone [BAD ENNEAGRAM FORM]. I am not and have not been one to perpetuate bad stereotypes and that's not what I wish to do here.


:laughing: I didn't think you meant to, I just thought most others who would post here would.



> BUT, cannot the enneatype offer some _insight _into why you perhaps developed the habits that you developed and why you lead the lifestyle you lead to this day? Let's say I relate to avarice and detachment of the 5, and can recognize the consistent patterns of withholding, reservation, etc.. And let's say I'm also a social recluse. Independent of each other, being a 5 and a social recluse are part of who I am or how my life has transpired up to this point. Could not the enneagram fixation illuminate how certain fears, perhaps, have led me down that particular road?


I mostly agree with you. The problem isn't being both type X (5) and hikikomori, the problem is correlating the two as reasons for both identifications. The way you phrased it was, "Which types are most likely to be hikikomori?" which can be a problem because it leads to stereotyping / mistyping based on superficial, behavioral reasons. However, if you phrased it as, "Why would each type become a hikikomori?" then there would be much more of a discussion and open-mindedness in general.

I admit it's a little bit of nitpicking, but I see it as an important distinction.



> I'm just very hesitant to take a hikikomori, slap the label of neurosis/disorder on it without considering the possibility that is simply either a preference or way of life to that particular _*individual*_.


Yup, that's why I was wondering the reason behind becoming reclusive. Surely there's some people who simply prefer that way of life and (assuming they're not harming or mooching or whatever) that's perfectly fine, and isn't really worth discussion (IMO). But then there's people who don't particularly want it to be that way, or don't know there's any other way to be. Those are the people who need help, in some fashion -- it may just be something as simple as social support, or it may mean something more medically oriented.

It's a complicated subject and gets into many different facets of society. I read some about disability issues, so I'll give you an example from that area. In the past, the disabled were supposed to be hidden away and ignored by most everyone, especially society. They were very mistreated and thought of as lesser. Today -- in the US, anyway -- this is generally thought of as "cruel," yet people don't realize that it still happens. The disabled are often segregated and/or excluded from "normal" life, and many are taught that their disability is a thing to "overcome" or to hide at all costs. Children get more assistance than adults do in most areas; my experience has been that people (even doctors) don't really know what to do with a disabled adult, about anything. Once the child becomes an adult, it's a constant battle of insurance, of employment (80% of disabled people are unemployed), of independence, of acceptance. I'm part of an organization that is supposed to help disabled people become part of the community... Except that no one is willing to drive my van (it has a wheelchair lift), and no one is convinced I can volunteer effectively for them (and I hate shopping). I've been waiting years just to get involved in _one tiny slice_ of my community, and have been rejected multiple times. So I stay home.

TL;DR - I have no social support, thus I am a recluse because my society tells me to be.

Now, while I would like to be more "social," I'm still an introvert regardless of everything. I need a decent amount of time to myself. I'd still hermit if I were involved in something. 

...
Wow I totally lost my train of thought after writing all that. Um...

Oh. Right.

I was going to say something about 6 influencing my pseudo-hikikomori-ness. I don't really think it does. I think the SP influences it a lot: I nest easily, and I love me my comfort, and I find it super easy to withdraw into myself (SP introvert thing, perhaps?). I suppose being SOC-last helps; it really is my blindspot, to the point where many SOC-oriented subjects take me by surprise. It occurs to me that perhaps my "devotion" to my online friends might be 6ish, since I've often felt like I took more joy in having them than they did in having me (since many people see online friendships as silly, less important, etc.). And I do use the computer as a tool of distraction, which my w7 loves.



> I think the picture is more complex than saying: You are antisocial therefore you have a problem.


Psst, btw, the term you're looking for is "asocial," not "antisocial." Friendly tip by someone who used to make the same mistake :wink:



> I couldn't say, but I think you insanely insightful, considerate and think things through cogently and consistently (yeah yeah brown nosing ). If that's what "insanity" is, I don't want to know what normal is. Mmkay?


Oh you *embarrassed handflap* Thanks


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

I think it's mainly a by-product of being social-last and has little if anything to do with Enneagram type.

I generally don't get out of the house except for work or food shopping. If it wasn't for work and a friend stopping by I'd have virtually no interaction with people face-to-face. It's a preference. There's just nothing of interest out there for me that I don't have access to at home.

If it wasn't for the Internet though, I might be out there more. Perhaps, the reason it seems more prevalent now is because of the Internet.

It's funny, but I imagine the norm centuries ago may have been the opposite of today. I'm thinking of people on their farms being self-sustaining before the era of suburbs and mass communication. The person wanting to leave their small town for the big city would be the exception. Strange how social judgement on what's normal is all relative to cultural preferences at the time.


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Paradigm said:


> I mostly agree with you. The problem isn't being both type X (5) and hikikomori, the problem is correlating the two as reasons for both identifications. The way you phrased it was, "Which types are most likely to be hikikomori?" which can be a problem because it leads to stereotyping / mistyping based on superficial, behavioral reasons. However, if you phrased it as, "Why would each type become a hikikomori?" then there would be much more of a discussion and open-mindedness in general.
> 
> I admit it's a little bit of nitpicking, but I see it as an important distinction.


Oh I agree; it is important. I can be somewhat loose with my word usage so long as the idea gets across (dunno if that's an Fi-inferior Te thing or probably just a "me" thing).



Paradigm said:


> I was going to say something about 6 influencing my pseudo-hikikomori-ness. I don't really think it does. I think the SP influences it a lot: I nest easily, and I love me my comfort, and I find it super easy to withdraw into myself (SP introvert thing, perhaps?). I suppose being SOC-last helps; it really is my blindspot, to the point where many SOC-oriented subjects take me by surprise. It occurs to me that perhaps my "devotion" to my online friends might be 6ish, since I've often felt like I took more joy in having them than they did in having me (since many people see online friendships as silly, less important, etc.). And I do use the computer as a tool of distraction, which my w7 loves.
> 
> Psst, btw, the term you're looking for is "asocial," not "antisocial." Friendly tip by someone who used to make the same mistake :wink:


YES. Thinking about it more, I think the instinctual variants seem like they'd play a greater role than type, at least in terms of preference or the sphere of focus that a particular person has. I've always been confused by my second instinct. I'm pretty oblivious to Soc-related concerns, to the point that it's often a rude awakening learning what norms are, but at the same time, I seem to have trouble with Sx-related concerns as well.

I guess I'm just intensely self-centered .

Ah, "asocial" got it. I should probably know that, lol, given how frequently I describe myself that way.



enneathusiast said:


> I think it's mainly a by-product of being social-last and has little if anything to do with Enneagram type.
> 
> I generally don't get out of the house except for work or food shopping. If it wasn't for work and a friend stopping by I'd have virtually no interaction with people face-to-face. It's a preference. There's just nothing of interest out there for me that I don't have access to at home.
> 
> ...


Haha, yes that's a great point about the historical norms shifting that way. 

Out of curiosity, how would Sp/So differ from Sp/Sx? Is it better to look at how the second instinct interacts with the first? Or the blindspot of the last instinct? I've had trouble pinning down that second instinct. I feel more like Sp/Sp TBH.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

I'm a 5 and I relate to this.

I thought this was a _me_ thing. I didn't realize it was a 5 thing.

That's so weird.

I really know jackshit about enneagram, though. It's about as important to me as my astrological sign. (meaningless)

I have read the descriptions of all 9 ennegram types and don't feel as though I relate very strongly to any of them.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

hal0hal0 said:


> Out of curiosity, how would Sp/So differ from Sp/Sx? Is it better to look at how the second instinct interacts with the first? Or the blindspot of the last instinct? I've had trouble pinning down that second instinct. I feel more like Sp/Sp TBH.


One thing I've noticed is that the 2nd instinct acts like a resource for the first. So for example, sp/so would lean on the social instinct to get what they need for their own autonomy. Sp/sx would lean more on the one-to-one for that. The last instinct would often be something to avoid as a negative or because it offers little value (not much time spent using it so it goes undeveloped).


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Ok, so I edited the first post with a disclaimer, FYI.

*DISCLAIMER*: *Do not use* my type conjectures and ponderings in this thread as a basis for your typing nor ascribe these characteristics to all people of that type!!! If you are say, a 9 and a recluse, this does not mean "it's a 9 thing." There are plenty of successful, outgoing 9s out there, so you should not use enneagram type (or any typology) as an absolute sort of diagnosis for how you are the way you are. Enneagram type I believe may play a ROLE, but *do not start making sweeping generalizations in this case.*



emberfly said:


> I'm a 5 and I relate to this.
> 
> I thought this was a _me_ thing. I didn't realize it was a 5 thing.
> 
> ...


See above, but I'd be careful suggesting that "it's a 5 thing." What I said in the OP was more a conjecture on my part and I was merely pondering the 5's fixation of avarice and detachment as it _*relates *_to reclusiveness. Not suggesting that type 5s ARE recluses, need help, etc.

As far as Enneagram itself, what resources have you been using?


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## Hikikomori (Feb 14, 2013)

If it helps, I've consistently tested as a 5w4, and strongly identify with the descriptions offered of 'unhealthy' members of said type.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Hikikomori said:


> If it helps, I've consistently tested as a 5w4, and strongly identify with the descriptions offered of 'unhealthy' members of said type.


Nice name.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Why is nobody talking about the 1's?


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Fern said:


> Why is nobody talking about the 1's?


What do you have to say that would involve Hikikomoris and 1s?

IMO It's about as plausible as any other type as to why 1s would be Hikis.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Necrophilous said:


> What do you have to say that would involve Hikikomoris and 1s?
> 
> IMO It's about as plausible as any other type as to why 1s would be Hikis.


Enneagram 1's hate corruption and their greatest fear is to be corrupted themselves, so I could easily imagine a 1 finding a shrine of purity and solitude for himself, pursuing their interests in a controlled setting.

It reminds me of monks little you know? Not the quintessential hippie, enneagram 9 monks - but the ones that put in place all the rigid rules and regulations for monks in the first place.

Dude. Come to think of it, my 1w9 ISTP brother used to constantly lament his being assured of the fact he would die alone in an apartment with 3 cats... and that the cats would eat him. And no one would know for days because he was always shut up in there.
Sounds pretty Hikikomori to me... and I could imagine this being extended to other 1's.

I know the ivory tower thing is usually applied to 5's, but 1's are smart little motherfuckers and the intellectual guys love their research and theorizing just as much as their 5 counterparts.


It also reminds me of 1's disintegration to 4. A super-healthy 1 would probably force himself out of the slump and go find a place to volunteer. But in their 4-like state they have a tendency to wallow, feel resentful about how poorly the world has treated them, and shut themselves away.

/inconcise word vomit



*side note: can we *please* call them "_hikis_" in day-to-day conversation?
I see it all.... Tumblr kids making this their latest thing, blogging about it, lamenting how their parents and society don't get them and demonize them as ticking time bombs of potential violence....


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Fern said:


> Enneagram 1's hate corruption and their greatest fear is to be corrupted themselves, so I could easily imagine a 1 finding a shrine of purity and solitude for himself, pursuing their interests in a controlled setting.


That's a good point. I think any enneagram type is capable of any particular behavior, but capability does not equate tendency, which I suppose was more my interest in this topic (i.e., reasonably generalizable patterns and not so much edge-cases). For instance, I would bet my life that more recluses/shutins in general are 9s than there are 8s for instance. Not saying an 8 hikikomori can't happen, but is it likely given the 8s fixation on lust, power, and its id energy in general?

But yes, I could see a case for 1; good argument :wink:.

I think a lot of what gets lost in typology in general is the context, culture and milieu that gave birth to particular behavioral patterns such as hikikomori. For instance: Japanese culture, historically, has dealt with a lot of major shifts in terms of its structural transformation. The post-Meiji era and rapid industrialization of Japan modernized the country at a much faster rate than most other countries.

I believe that as a result of this rapid development, Japan has a particularly unique generational divide between the younger and older generations, more so than the typical generation gaps. Moreover, the nature of Eastern culture, such as Japan, develops astronomically high expectations for its students, for the most part. Hard work is highly valued amongst asian cultures in general, so the younger generations, particularly when they are influenced by the individualized, western trains of thought, may find themselves paralyzed into fear with that dissonance—between the values they are developing in their youth such as independence, freedom and self-indulgence vs. what their parents or elders expect of them in terms of career, future prospects, etc.


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