# Permanent Ban for David Keirsey: Typism



## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

.

_It's a less than fond farewell to thee
O man whose system infuriates me
I simply can't stand it
Your temperament shit
Falls far short even of astrology_










^ Time travelers take note, this is your target, and when to find him. Bring the means to steal writing implements.​
Given that any system of typology is an oversimplification, on top of the fact that it's also not science, it's psychological theory. Still, the more I learn of David Keirsey, the more I realize that he is probably the single most important force behind the obnoxious type-based stereotypes that plague sites like PersonalityCafe.

Reading through Keirsey's writings, it's not hard to hate the people in the SJ temperament. After all, Keirsey apparently did as well. Dependable. Helpful. Hard working. Loyal. Responsible. Stable. Dutiful. Cautious. Humble. Trusting of authority. Traditional. Not so bad, right? What's insidious is that it's not all so bad on the surface, but a glance beneath reveals the traits that he felt typified this temperament. The SJs of the world are the ones who are so bent on tradition that anything new in their lives is a threat. They're the oppressors, the ones running the show, the ones who would rather do things the way they've always been done and will pitch a fit if you want to do something a new way.

Worse yet is the interpretation many bring from Keirsey. In fact, I daresay that for the most part, any time someone mentions the SJ temperament as a group, the conversation is about to go downhill. It's the most hated temperament on the site, and through inductive reasoning, many members decide their parents, or any other authority figure they don't like, must be an SJ of some kind. It doesn't matter that your parents are an INTJ and an ENFP, or as ESTP and an INFJ. They're all SJs, because they won't front you three hundred dollars to spend on a tattoo and a blowjob.

Part of the insult to SJs (and to SPs, to a lesser extent) is in the comparative praise Keirsey glues to the other temperaments. SJs are Guardians, but NTs are Rationals, which I think we can all agree implies that they're somehow more rational than the other temperaments. Definitions of "rational" include: agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible; having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense; endowed with the faculty of reason. No matter that INTJs and ISTJs are superficially identical in temperament, because the INTJ is somehow the rational one.

These words, Guardians and Rationals, are meant to take something that's already oversimplified and simplify it further into a single word representing what the group is best known for. They're just words, but words have power. Many of the members on this site are totally new to typology, and totally ignorant of Keirsey's forebears, like Carl Jung. Keirsey's temperaments are short, concise, and easy to understand, and this makes it like "typology lite" for the uninitiated. That's appealing in one sense, and horrible in another, because the ignorant are given a tool that they have no idea how to use.

Then there's the way these temperaments are grouped. They're not grouped the way Jung did it, which would put INFPs and ISFPs together, and ISTJs and ISFJs together, based on dominant function, Fi and Si respectively. Instead, Keirsey crosses the groups, putting, for example, all the xNFx types into a single temperament group. INFPs are grouped with ENFJs, despite having dramatically different functions and temperaments. ISFPs are grouped with ESTPs. I get the sense that he grouped them in a way that he'd find easiest to stereotype.

It's kind of disgusting.

Yet another insult is the way Keirsey's own website uses the temperaments to give relationship advice. Writer Dr. Lovegood  gives the following advice for those who would seek a relationship with an SJ.

Keirsey's PersonalityZone - Personality and Your Relationships



> Guardian men are often very traditional in terms of gender roles. They tend to be happiest when they do most of the wage earning and their partner does most of the home making. While most are sensible enough not to expect obedience, they do still expect loyalty and respect. It is very important to avoid shaming them in public by talking down about them, making a scene, or cutting them down.
> 
> Guardian women are likely to be looking for a man they can depend on to be there for them when the going gets rough. Like Guardian men, they are likely to be happiest when they are doing more of the home making and their partner is doing more of the wage earning. Most Guardian women enjoy being treated as a rare and fragile object even when they are very tough-minded and ambitious in their careers. Do not embarrass them in public by showing any sort of romantic interest in another woman.





> To keep your Guardian happy, upset their routines as little as possible. They can and do change, but they need a lot of lead time to do so. Also, most Guardians will actually change more efficiently without a deadline which can send them over the edge into anxiety or rage. Whenever feasible, follow their rules on the "right" way to: squeeze the toothpaste, stack dishes, brake the car, and tend to stains on clothing. If the two of you can't reach a compromise, it may be better to have two separate toothpastes or drive separately or whatever else is necessary to keep the two of you from getting on each other's nerves. Sometimes that involves doing chores outside of your mate's presence so your way of doing things doesn't precipitate an argument.


Sure am glad I don't have to deal with any SJs! They sound like such imperious dicks.


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

tattoos and blowjob! damn, i'm still lol'ing over that.

It's true though. For many people on this site, anyone who's ever annoyed them or fucked them over from a position of authority (be it their parents or teachers or whatever...) are automatically SJs.


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## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

Okay, I admit I didn't read the blog post, but I love the "ban" and picture.


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## princess82 (Sep 30, 2011)

message deleted


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## Grunfur (Oct 23, 2011)

I find this blog post very misleading. There's no evidence for any of your claims and it jumps to conclusions quite easily. Where have people actually said that SJs are irrational and oppressing? David Keirsey simply attempted to categorize personality types based on the best information he can find. He never said that SJs are incapable of being rational. He simply put individuals in categories that seemed to apply the most to their types. I see absolutely nothing wrong with how he categorized types. For the record, he was more focused on role variants than the 4 categories.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@Grunfur

Yeah, but why are NTs "The Rationals?" That doesn't even make sense, considering that the F and T functions are all equally "rational."

The image is awesome, btw!


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## cranberryplains (Aug 1, 2011)

This should be required reading for any new member.


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## MilkyWay132 (Jul 15, 2010)

The SJ stereotypes are stupid. It's something I realized some time ago. So are the SP ones; in fact, in the relationships section for SPs we too got the shorter end of the stick. I also agree that it's aggrvating how NTs are the "Rationals." I wanted to be a NT before because the term "Rational" implied that NTs had the best intellect.


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## Zeptometer (Dec 5, 2010)

Agreed. That simplification shit is what got me into MBTI in the first place, but I quickly realized it was nothing like that. Thank goodness.

There are plenty of people of every type that suck. I'm sure we've all met one of the stereotypes of each type, that ESTP womanizer, or that INFP crybaby, or the ESFJ gossip-queen, or the INTJ asshole. But why did Kiersey decide that he was going to glorify us, and shame sensors? Ignore our potential flaws and point at the flaws of others?

I don't think Kiersey ever met an intuitive he didn't like, which, frankly, I just don't get. He makes it sound like all the Sensors fall perfectly into these little boxes of stupidity, and that pisses me off, both on behalf of my sensor friends, and just as a moral standard. I mean, what happened to love and tolerance, man?

Apparently, as a male Champion (seriously? that's our name under keirsey's stuff?), I should "never lack female companionship." They basically say I just sleep with copious amounts of women. Which I don't. I sure wish I did, but I don't.

I'm glad that he brought me here though. Turns out I was more motivated by the fascination by all the type forums than the urge to divide people based on them.


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## Grunfur (Oct 23, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno;bt26454 said:


> @_Grunfur_
> 
> Yeah, but why are NTs "The Rationals?" That doesn't even make sense, considering that the F and T functions are all equally "rational."
> 
> The image is awesome, btw!


It makes quite a lot of sense if you think about it. Rational isn't even as much a T vs. F thing as much is it is N vs S. If you think about the philosophical definition of a rationalism its the school of thought that believes that we can explain things through reasoning and concepts, much like N users. Whereas the empiricists like to see things at hands and with their five senses, obviously like S users. Thinking simply emphasizes the description of rationalism, by using logic. The combination of N and T play more into rationalism than S and T do. 

But that doesn't make ISTJs less logical than INTJs. Logic is equally used for both types, because of the Te element. Its simply the fact that INTJs use their Ni to rely more on concepts that make them more inclined to be rationals. Their Ni tells them how to be reasonable and follow the patterns, whereas the ISTJ has to see the thing. Let's put it this way, INTJs make amazing philosophers or strategists and ISTJs make amazing forensic scientists and judges.

Rational &#8800; logical.


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## Laguna (Mar 21, 2012)

The SJ male and female examples were spot on for 2 in my life I can think of. (chuckle) HOWEVER--- they _prefer_ things the way described above- they don't flip out and get irrational if the toothpaste is Crest this time instead of Colgate. At least not the ones in my life.

I think the world needs people that like to maintain tradition. Cuz the rest of us (like us ENFPs) would send tradition down the river in a hand-basket.

Kudos to SJs! WOOHOO!!!!!!!!
(now do I get banned for agreeing with the stereotypical description? yikes)


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