# Self-image: Fe vs. Fi



## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

A Fi-user and a Fe-user wants to be seen as helpful, but how will their approach to fullfilling that self-image differ?


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## psynite (Feb 7, 2011)

Fe will act based on social norms and Fi will based on their own developed ones, and they can both look exactly the same on the outside.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

I was recently in a situation where I had to give someone advice--and for my own selfish desire and jealousy, I could have given that person the wrong advice: but, because I can't help but putting others before me (either bad or good--some days I can't even tell) I ended up giving the person the "right" advice, even though it was going to do the opposite of benefiting me. 

That's Fe for you :/


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

I guess most of the time me being helpful is just listening and giving reassurance. Of course there are times when people need direction but I lack emotional understanding on the other person's behalf sometimes.


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## featherfall (Jul 22, 2012)

psynite said:


> Fe will act based on social norms and Fi will based on their own developed ones, and they can both look exactly the same on the outside.


I think that's too simplistic. It's too broad to say that Fe will act based on social norms. What's important is that Fe looks for what feels right for the group, and Fi looks for what feels right for the self. But what the Fe user decides feels right for the group may not be in accord with social norms. Every group is different, after all, and the Fe user may feel that social norms are impeding the social system rather than helping it.


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## caraez (Mar 31, 2010)

Crono91 said:


> I was recently in a situation where I had to give someone advice--and for my own selfish desire and jealousy, I could have given that person the wrong advice: but, because I can't help but putting others before me (either bad or good--some days I can't even tell) I ended up giving the person the "right" advice, even though it was going to do the opposite of benefiting me.
> 
> That's Fe for you :/


But - an Fi user could do the exact same thing, because they feel it's 'right' to help others and not be selfish.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

caraez said:


> But - an Fi user could do the exact same thing, because they feel it's 'right' to help others and not be selfish.


I wasn't saying they couldn't. My Fi sucks so I don't know how you guys operate. I was just stating a scenario for Fe's concern.


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## psynite (Feb 7, 2011)

featherfall said:


> I think that's too simplistic. It's too broad to say that Fe will act based on social norms. What's important is that Fe looks for what feels right for the group, and Fi looks for what feels right for the self. But what the Fe user decides feels right for the group may not be in accord with social norms. Every group is different, after all, and the Fe user may feel that social norms are impeding the social system rather than helping it.


Indeed that is correct, I intended to make it on the extreme end of both, there is a lot of grey area between Fe and Fi.


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## featherfall (Jul 22, 2012)

I would also add that Fi may not necessarily care about being _seen_ as helpful, so much as following internal principles. For example, Jesus says in the New Testament that when the right hand gives, the left hand must not know what it is doing. So a devout Christian Fi user might read that and interpret it to mean that you should provide charity for its own sake, without any thought as to who might be watching.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

featherfall said:


> I would also add that Fi may not necessarily care about being _seen_ as helpful, so much as following internal principles. For example, Jesus says in the New Testament that when the right hand gives, the left hand must not know what it is doing. So a devout Christian Fi user might read that and interpret it to mean that you should provide charity for its own sake, without any thought as to who might be watching.


Seen as helpful by self or others, as both would appear similar I'm wondering about how to distinguish the two. Doesn't Fe-users also want to see themselves as helpful in that scenario? And Fi users as helpful by others?


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

I would say Fi at it's purest form wouldn't worry about what it is seen as for the most part, wanting to be seen as something would probably come from their auxiliary perception functions. Ultimately Fi will still reference the internal, subjective, idealized standards they have gained threw out their life (media, religion, values, etc.) but the standard will be a subjective one (I think this is the right way to be helpful). Then they will execute it as a way that maximizes the benefit of the principal (Fi-Te). A Fe user will probably take into account how others would deal with the situation and then troubleshoot it to see if that is the right call for that situation (Fe-Ti). In reference to self-image, Fi ultimately cares about how it feels about itself and if it is consistent with what they want to be. Fi values integrity/consistency.

A Fe user will more likely measure themselves against what is the external standard of being "helpful" -- what do others think of as being helpful? and adopt an image that correlates or is valued as being seen as "helpful" by the groups standard. Fi in it's purest form doesn't care about being seen as anything (that's the secondary auxiliary perceptions coming forth in a Fi type), it cares about exemplifying a deeply seated value within itself for itself. Fi's being helpful will probably be more along the line of being helpful in principal.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Fe feel that their actions are valuable when their values have an impact on the external world. In a balloon metaphor Fe would be the plastic balloon and Ti would be the air inside of the balloon. Unless it was a helium balloon, then Ti would be he helium... but that's irrelevant. Fe users feel important, (A good self-image) when they able to use their values in an active way, to add value... in a way. 

Fi, is more passive. It would much rather extract value. The Fi user will see an action and draw a meaning from it... or attribute their own value to the action. Fi value does a lot of moral/_value _depth excavation - trying to determine what is valuable and what is not. (Balloon metaphor: Fi is now the air) This leads to a self-imaging value that is more intrinsically personal. (As in more related to the person evaluating)


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

INFJs are able to see and feel what another person feels because of the input of their Ni, I guess but even they can go too far with their mediating. 

Fe-doms are bossy just like ExTJs but they have a Bambi face to cover that up. They are warm but also firm. They are the nucleus of a family but they will also try to convince other people how to live their lives and meddle constantly with the best intentions, of course, but often that doesn't stop them from being annoying.

Fi users (regardless of the position of the function) won't fully relate to a person's feelings if they do at all but if they are Fi-doms they will listen to you and try to support you the best way they can. They will also be the ones who will try to stop an argument between two parties but they will not try to make people see where the other one is coming from, Fi-doms just want the argument to stop abruptly because THEY can't stand it and listen to it which most of the time is counterproductive as it tends to drive people up the wall.


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## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

Arrow said:


> I would say Fi at it's purest form wouldn't worry about what it is seen as for the most part, wanting to be seen as something would probably come from their auxiliary perception functions. Ultimately Fi will still reference the internal, subjective, idealized standards they have gained threw out their life (media, religion, values, etc.) but the standard will be a subjective one (I think this is the right way to be helpful). Then they will execute it as a way that maximizes the benefit of the principal (Fi-Te). A Fe user will probably take into account how others would deal with the situation and then troubleshoot it to see if that is the right call for that situation (Fe-Ti). In reference to self-image, Fi ultimately cares about how it feels about itself and if it is consistent with what they want to be. Fi values integrity/consistency.*A Fe user will more likely measure themselves against what is the external standard of being "helpful" -- what do others think of as being helpful? and adopt an image that correlates or is valued as being seen as "helpful" by the groups standard.* Fi in it's purest form doesn't care about being seen as anything (that's the secondary auxiliary perceptions coming forth in a Fi type), it cares about exemplifying a deeply seated value within itself for itself. Fi's being helpful will probably be more along the line of being helpful in principal.


Of all the definitions in this thread, this is the one I agree with, especially the part in bold (as an inferior Fe-user). 

Am I helpful? 
Am I clever? 
Am I attractive? 
Am I nice? 

Basically, I think Fe-users depend more on external definitions of such value judgements, and they believe they're only as helpful/clever/attractive/nice as other people judge them to be. E.g. I could _never_ say, "I'm gorgeous and I don't care what anybody else thinks." Such a judgement is irrelevant/faulty, in my personal opinion. 
Now, the extent to which I try to adhere to these external judgements is a different topic altogether. Fe doesn't mean I automatically WANT to show how clever/attractive I am/could be - my Ti decides that.


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## Hycocritical truth teller (Aug 29, 2011)

Crono91 said:


> I was recently in a situation where I had to give someone advice--and for my own selfish desire and jealousy, I could have given that person the wrong advice: but, because I can't help but putting others before me (either bad or good--some days I can't even tell) I ended up giving the person the "right" advice, even though it was going to do the opposite of benefiting me.
> 
> That's Fe for you :/


That's only right thing to do - giving bad advice is worse then not giving any advice at all. I personally couldn't just go for my benefit and take the benefit from other people. They deserve it as much as i do, and if they got it first it's theirs. 
I recognize when smth will do bad for me but good for other person, but i will survive. Being fair and consistent with others is what matters.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

yedra said:


> INFJs are able to see and feel what another person feels because of the input of their Ni, I guess but even they can go too far with their mediating.
> 
> Fe-doms are bossy just like ExTJs but they have a Bambi face to cover that up. They are warm but also firm. They are the nucleus of a family but they will also try to convince other people how to live their lives and meddle constantly with the best intentions, of course, but often that doesn't stop them from being annoying.
> 
> Fi users (regardless of the position of the function) won't fully relate to a person's feelings if they do at all but if they are Fi-doms they will listen to you and try to support you the best way they can. They will also be the ones who will try to stop an argument between two parties but they will not try to make people see where the other one is coming from, Fi-doms just want the argument to stop abruptly because THEY can't stand it and listen to it which most of the time is counterproductive as it tends to drive people up the wall.


A small correction here with regards to Fi. Fi will absolutely take a persons feelings into consideration, especially if they value this for themselves. And yes, Fi will try and make people see where the the other is coming from, because Ne is about seeing things from all possible angles, so it's natural to address all the angles in hopes that others can understand where the problems exist. Ne will kick in first, especially for ENFP, so to say that we don't want to stop an argument is incorrect. We already see all sides of the situation, and will point out to others using Fi how to resolve those issues. I can't say in relations to Fi Dom how they would proceed, although with Ne DOM, the procedure isn't as you explained. Especially with your statement ( regardless of the position of function ). You don't even use Fi, so you don't have any experience with Fi. Unless you do, you can't make statements about something you don't experience. I see you're a newbie so i will forgive you for your ignorance with functions.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> A small correction here with regards to Fi. Fi will absolutely take a persons feelings into consideration, especially if they value this for themselves. And yes, Fi will try and make people see where the the other is coming from, because Ne is about seeing things from all possible angles, so it's natural to address all the angles in hopes that others can understand where the problems exist. Ne will kick in first, especially for ENFP, so to say that we don't want to stop an argument is incorrect. We already see all sides of the situation, and will point out to others using Fi how to resolve those issues. I can't say in relations to Fi Dom how they would proceed, although with Ne DOM, the procedure isn't as you explained. Especially with your statement ( regardless of the position of function ). You don't even use Fi, so you don't have any experience with Fi. Unless you do, you can't make statements about something you don't experience. I see you're a newbie so i will forgive you for your ignorance with functions.


The funniest thing is that your an ENFP, of all Fi users I think your type are the worst listeners so don't get me even started.
And just because I'm new to this forum doesn't mean I'm new to typology. But funny judgment you made right there.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> The funniest thing is that your an ENFP, of all Fi users I think your type are the worst listeners so don't get me even started.
> And just because I'm new to this forum doesn't mean I'm new to typology. But funny judgment you made right there.


If you're familiar with typology then you should already be aware of how Fi operates, I also reacted to how that paragraph was worded, and this one as well.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

yedra said:


> The funniest thing is that your an ENFP, of all Fi users I think your type are the worst listeners so don't get me even started.
> And just because I'm new to this forum doesn't mean I'm new to typology. But funny judgment you made right there.


Well with all that knowledge you claim to have with typology, you should know that ENFP lead with an objective function, meaning that we see things objectively first, then making a subjective judgement using Fi. Or did you even know that functions are subjective and objective. No , you didn't, because if you did you would have explained that in your post in order to get your point across. The way you explained Fi and trying to state it doesn't matter where the function falls shows your lack of knowledge. Taking offence to the post shows your ignorance with functions even more. Try sticking to the topic rather than taking things personal. Do your homework and learn from people who know more than you rather than getting your Fe in a knot.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> If you're familiar with typology then you should already be aware of how Fi operates, I also reacted to how that paragraph was worded, and this one as well.


I wrote can't FULLY relate to other people's feelings.
The last part also relates only to Fi-doms. You are an Fi-dom. You can prove me wrong or you can admit I am right. How do you react, what do you do when people fight or when they try to fight with you?

I've seen this happen a gazillion times, I just wrote what I observed. Nothing of what I wrote is politically correct but it doesn't have to be.


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## Adasta (Nov 22, 2011)

Inguz said:


> A Fi-user and a Fe-user wants to be seen as helpful, but how will their approach to fullfilling that self-image differ?


I don't want to be seen as helpful.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> I wrote can't FULLY relate to other people's feelings.
> The last part also relates only to Fi-doms. You are an Fi-dom. You can prove me wrong or you can admit I am right. How do you react, what do you do when people fight or when they try to fight with you?
> 
> I've seen this happen a gazillion times, I just wrote what I observed. Nothing of what I wrote is politically correct but it doesn't have to be.


I think that you may have a point somewhere in that, but it's not at all what I reacted to. But on the other hand, can you fully relate to subjective feelings? As you wrote though, Fi is not about the solution, so that is why I find your second post a bit odd, perhaps because of my limited understanding of Fe, but poking an ENFP in this instance with rationalizations when she expresses how she feels is just like poking a sleeping bear.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Well with all that knowledge you claim to have with typology, you should know that ENFP lead with an objective function, meaning that we see things objectively first, then making a subjective judgement using Fi. Or did you even know that functions are subjective and objective. No , you didn't, because if you did you would have explained that in your post in order to get your point across. The way you explained Fi and trying to state it doesn't matter where the function falls shows your lack of knowledge. Taking offence to the post shows your ignorance with functions even more. Try sticking to the topic rather than taking things personal. Do your homework and learn from people who know more than you rather than getting your Fe in a knot.


Oh, you don't use Fe but you know how it functions?
You lost me already with Ne and angles, so don't even try any further.
This discussion slipped down to kindergarten level right from the beginning, nothing good can come from it because this will just be about who can come up with fancier lines. So think what you want, I know what I know.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> I think that you may have a point somewhere in that, but it's not at all what I reacted to. But on the other hand, can you fully relate to subjective feelings? As you wrote though, Fi is not about the solution, so that is why I find your second post a bit odd, perhaps because of my limited understanding of Fe, but poking an ENFP in this instance with rationalizations when she expresses how she feels is just like poking a sleeping bear.


I understand my OWN feelings better through what other people go through because most of the time I won't admit my own feelings to myself and when I compare some situations to my own experiences I understand myself better, if that makes any sense.

EDIT: And I guess you reacted to my tone which was not the nicest or maybe I came across as condescending or narrow-minded, fair enough.


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## caraez (Mar 31, 2010)

yedra said:


> Fi users (regardless of the position of the function) won't fully relate to a person's feelings if they do at all but if they are Fi-doms they will listen to you and try to support you the best way they can. They will also be the ones who will try to stop an argument between two parties but they will not try to make people see where the other one is coming from, Fi-doms just want the argument to stop abruptly because THEY can't stand it and listen to it which most of the time is counterproductive as it tends to drive people up the wall.


The first sentence is somewhat true.

As for the rest, that's definitely not a characteristic of Fi or give insight into how it works. I would definitely try to make people see other's points of views, because I value harmony and people understanding each other and I want things to be resolved between the two. I hate seeing two people who have a good relationship to ruin it because I know how much I value intimacy. It would be painful to watch an argument between two people because I know how much it would pain me to be in that situation. 

What you're describing sounds like a behavior that comes from tertiary or inferior Fi - maybe an ENTJ? It doesn't define what Fi IS at all whatsoever.

Something I said on another thread - "_Fes can certainly reach a depth of empathy I cannot. I have to attempt to understand why I would feel that way through my own lenses. Sometimes I feel like a bad person because my 'empathy' comes from my values being violated in relation to what has been done to the other person, or from an appreciation that their own values have been violated."_

Fi is not selfish or uncaring about others. And it certainly does has values that have to do with caring for other people, including being able to empathize and support the other as much as possible. It is not that Fi cares only about itself, but it _focuses on knowing itself as much as possible in order to act in the most authentic, true, way that most conforms to the values that it discovers through its in-depth analyzation._




yedra said:


> The funniest thing is that your an ENFP, of all Fi users I think your type are the worst listeners so don't get me even started.
> And just because I'm new to this forum doesn't mean I'm new to typology. But funny judgment you made right there.


Just because you're not new to typology doesn't mean you don't have a lot to learn. I've been into it for near four years now and I still don't know everything. And clearly it doesn't mean that you don't make stereotypes. Whether you're a good listener or not doesn't necessarily have to do with what type you are.


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

All I can say is that I _do _have an inherent need to do good for the world, but my way is extremely different from social norms. In fact, I don't even take those into account - at all. The only time I do is around family or when those that are older than me are around... even then, I rarely care about how 'happy' they are (and that admittedly sounds quite bad, but after all of my experiences, it's justifiable in my eyes); actually, I rarely care about how happy _anyone _is except those that have gotten extremely close to me. Otherwise, I care about my family's safety - they can handle their own happiness pretty well.

It may be worth noting that unless I'm talking about something extremely interesting to me, I tend to sound apathetic - and that's very often, considering how many things I actually consider uninteresting. Sometimes, though, people don't seem to realize that I'm excited about something when I'm talking about it. For example, I was trying to explain Akkadian to someone recently, but they said it sounded like I hated it. My Fe shows a lot more easily when typing because you have to use your imagination; if you could see my face when I type 'lol' or something of the sort, I assure you, I'm only 'lolling' in the back of my head. Otherwise, I look very apathetic, even when I'm not.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

I don't want to be seen as helpful either. I don't even care if people never know that I helped. I want to be helpful to certain people in certain situations which I decide are important by my own measures. 

I help by trying to adjust the solution to the person, rather than trying to adjust the person to the solution.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Inguz said:


> A Fi-user and a Fe-user wants to be seen as helpful, but how will their approach to fullfilling that self-image differ?


I can only use example with people in my reality. So lets use my INFJ brother who uses Fe compared to me. When i help people its because it meshes with my own personal morals and values. I don't want any recognition, i don't think about how i'm perceived by other people. If it sits well with my Fi, i do it without thinking, not for the sake of doing it or not because i think/care what society expects from me.

My INFJ brother has completely different motivations. He will be helpful because he feels its the right thing to do, he follows the social quota, " isn't that what everyone else would do " He also wants to be recognized for his good deeds, he may even try and manipulate others into guilt by saying what he believes is socially acceptable, this is how the world works sort of speak, so this is the right way. Fi doesn't concern themselves with social acceptance, they do what they believe is right, what makes them feel good, regardless of social norms. Fe conforms, while Fi doesn't. This isn't to say that Fi can't conform, or won't, it really depends on the dynamics and how quickly we want to get those who constantly conform to_ go away_ 

So how its that fullfilling to each user. I think both Fi and Fe can feel satisfaction , although through different process and motivations. The motivations behind what drives us into helping is completely different, yet both satisfactory to the user. Fe will objectively believe their way is the right way, because isn't that what everyone else believes, while Fi will subjectively believe what is true for themselves.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

yedra said:


> Oh, you don't use Fe but you know how it functions?
> You lost me already with Ne and angles, so don't even try any further.
> This discussion slipped down to kindergarten level right from the beginning, nothing good can come from it because this will just be about who can come up with fancier lines. So think what you want, I know what I know.


So what you're saying is you don't have knowledge with your DOM function, because Ni like Ne are all about possibilities and angles. You really need to get yourself educated about who you are and how you function. If you can't logically explain your functions, how you apply them in your reality, how can you possibly try and explain functions you don't even use. No i don't use Fe, but that doesn't mean i'm not educated in the process and how it works. I'm not looking for fancy lines, knowing what i know isn't fancy, its reality. Ask yourself why you're here at PerC. Are you not here to learn from other people, because if you answer no to that, you're in for a hell of a ride, you won't survive.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

caraez said:


> The first sentence is somewhat true.
> 
> As for the rest, that's definitely not a characteristic of Fi or give insight into how it works. I would definitely try to make people see other's points of views, because I value harmony and people understanding each other and I want things to be resolved between the two. I hate seeing two people who have a good relationship to ruin it because I know how much I value intimacy. It would be painful to watch an argument between two people because I know how much it would pain me to be in that situation.
> 
> ...


10 characters


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Problem is that we've came up with many different and even perhaps more useful ways of categorizing people into 8 different functions, than the MBTI, so, it gets confusing when we speculate as opposed to just use whatever the MBTI people wrote on paper.

Also confusing if we try to use Jung's words, as if the MBTI matches up perfectly.

I could for example speculate that we can use all of our functions, or only 2, based on how I define them.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Souled In said:


> Problem is that we've came up with many different and even perhaps more useful ways of categorizing people into 8 different functions, than the MBTI, so, it gets confusing when we speculate as opposed to just use whatever the MBTI people wrote on paper.
> 
> Also confusing if we try to use Jung's words, as if the MBTI matches up perfectly.
> 
> I could for example speculate that we can use all of our functions, or only 2, based on how I define them.


It doesn't matter what system you use to define your personality you still know how you react when there is conflict, for example, and you can watch the situation through the glasses of an MBTI INFP, a certain enneagram type, socionics type or whatever and you can pin point certain traits of yours to a type of a system.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

All the functions manifest differently depending where they fall in the functional stack. Inferior/tert Fi/Fe is much more likely to appear selfish, inappropriate or unreasonable in comparison to dom/aux feeling function. 

To a lesser extent even aux F is different from dom F because aux F is directed by the dominant intuition/sensing functions. 

You can't get anywhere near an accurate understanding of the feeling functions by comparing an Fe aux user to an Fi tert user. Both are directed by the perceiving functions and they're not even equal to each other in the functional hierarchy.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

yedra said:


> It doesn't matter what system you use to define your personality you still know how you react when there is conflict, for example, and you can watch the situation through the glasses of an MBTI INFP, a certain enneagram type, socionics type or whatever and you can pin point certain traits of yours to a type of a system.


I'm talking about confusion in defining the definitions of functions within that system.

Remember I said that when we use common sense to speculate on what proper definitions of functions would be it can get confusing.

We are just talking about two different things but no worries, all good


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Souled In said:


> I'm talking about confusion in defining the definitions of functions within that system.
> 
> Remember I said that when we use common sense to speculate on what proper definitions of functions would be it can get confusing.
> 
> We are just talking about two different things but no worries, all good


Yes, but I think that happens mostly because people reject a stereotype of a function or type on a reflex. 
You could describe yourself and derive general principles from that at the same time.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

yedra said:


> Yes, but I think that happens mostly because people reject a stereotype of a function or type on a reflex.
> You could describe yourself and derive general principles from that at the same time.


I agree in part.

Stereotypes are just a way of saying "this factor correlates," which is a way of raising the construct validity of the measurement. The more variables that correlate, the more valid it is.

There is no gold standard measurement, for the most part, so this way of measuring must be done.

However, measuring is all a part of the operational definition.

We can also be confused when it comes to the basic conceptual definition, and that was the part I was speaking of.

So I certainly agree in part as far as the operational definition, but also see confusion in the conceptual definitions to begin with.


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## caraez (Mar 31, 2010)

yedra said:


> 10 characters


Depends on the situation. If they're in a full-blown fight in front of me, I'd first get them to calm down by saying "It isn't worth it" then discuss it in a more rational manner, and because conflict makes me sad.

I don't generally interfere in someone else's fight with someone else unless they want my advice/point of view because I feel like it's not my place and something they should resolve themselves. I tend to mediate a bit, throw in some understanding if they're right in front of me discussing the disagreement. If it's one on one, I often offer the other person's point of view and suggest solutions along the lines of "getting them to understand your point of view."


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

I think the Fe user would probably coerce vs. the Fi user. From what I gather, Fi users do like being viewed a certain way but they're private about it at the same time. The Fi would likely do what aligned most with their inner values, which could still probably be something that _is_ helpful (I guess they could help out of decision, but 2 Fis might be better at explaining) and the Fe would consider what was most appropriate to be seen as helpful.

That's just my jab at it.


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## Cosmicsense (Dec 7, 2011)

yedra said:


> I wrote can't FULLY relate to other people's feelings.
> The last part also relates only to Fi-doms. You are an Fi-dom. You can prove me wrong or you can admit I am right. How do you react, what do you do when people fight or when they try to fight with you?
> 
> I've seen this happen a gazillion times, I just wrote what I observed. Nothing of what I wrote is politically correct but it doesn't have to be.


If it's physical, it's near instinctual for me to assess the situation instantaneously to find a way to neurtralize it. Sometimes that involves shouting seemingly nonsensical things to confuse-snap people out of it...sometimes it literally involves getting between the two and taking a few hits in the process...once I pulled a fire alarm...depends, but is very snappy no matter what...

If it's verbal attacks, either let them duke it out, else if I believe it may get physical, say juuust the right things to make people embarrassed enough to stop on the spot. 

I've been breaking up a bar fight at my local hole about once every 6 months for the last several years...


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Cosmicsense said:


> If it's physical, it's near instinctual for me to assess the situation instantaneously to find a way to neurtralize it. Sometimes that involves shouting seemingly nonsensical things to confuse-snap people out of it...sometimes it literally involves getting between the two and taking a few hits in the process...once I pulled a fire alarm...depends, but is very snappy no matter what...
> 
> If it's verbal attacks, either let them duke it out, else if I believe it may get physical, say juuust the right things to make people embarrassed enough to stop on the spot.
> 
> I've been breaking up a bar fight at my local hole about once every 6 months for the last several years...


And this is all I was talking about. Your primary goal was to stop the fight. And to me there lies the difference between an Fe and Fi person. An Fe user will try to make the people understand why they are fighting in the first place and if the mediating is successful the argument will be solved by understanding where the other is coming from. Fi-doms don't solve a conflict, they stop it.

xxTJs don't take other people's feelings as criteria on how to do things and what decisions to make.

Fi-aux don't have an aversion to conflict like Fi-doms have but I still have to meet an ESFP or ENFP who give logical arguments in a discussion. From what I've seen from ESFPs is that they won't bow down but they won't have much patience either and they are easy to get along with anyway. ENFPs will piss me off by going on forever without saying anything. They will say that they show you possibilities, I'll call it diluting the subject. 

Anyway, here are two quotes by *snail *posted in http://personalitycafe.com/general-psychology/905-question-intuitive-people.html that perfectly describe what an Fi-dom does when conflict arises:



snail said:


> I can't bear to be around angry sorts. It causes me to break down and cry or have panic attacks. ESTJs always get angry at me for being an INFP and doing INFP things. I try to be as harmless as possible to avoid conflict, but they won't let me avoid it. They don't value my meekness, and tend to see it as something I am doing wrong. The more I show signs of submission to avoid criticism, the harder they criticize me, not only for the INFP things I was originally doing, but for my INFP way of reacting to their hostility about it. Everything implodes very quickly around them, and it is safest to just avoid them entirely when it is possible. When it isn't possible, I am inevitably miserable in their presence.





snail said:


> Submission is my natural defense, since when someone is being aggressive, I usually assume that it is to gain control. If I give them what they want, they should leave me alone. I'm not capable of being aggressive back unless my values are challenged to the point where I would defend them to the death. If I were to become aggressive in lesser situations, it would be like giving the other person permission to hurt me by implying, "see, I can dish it out, so I can take it, too," when in reality, I cannot, and just want to avoid conflict whenever possible. If I try to seem stronger than I am, a person will think that it is okay to say and do things that are damaging to me, and it will be my fault for confusing them into thinking so. If I make my weakness apparent, it _should_ be a natural deterrant because I pose no threat, and only a psychopath would rip out my throat when I am already humbling myself by offering it. Is there a way to make ESTJs non-hostile without having to become excessively dominant, arrogant or hostile myself? I don't think I can do those things because they are inauthentic for me. I shouldn't have to pretend to be strong to avoid pain. My vulnerability should be enough, unless you are a sadist.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> Anyway, here are two quotes by *snail *posted in http://personalitycafe.com/general-psychology/905-question-intuitive-people.html that perfectly describe what an Fi-dom does when conflict arises:


Conflicts doesn't give me panic attacks... Generalizing one individuals difficulties in this way is not only disrespectful toward her, but also the rest of the INFPs and ISFPs.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> Conflicts doesn't give me panic attacks... Generalizing one individuals difficulties in this way is not only disrespectful toward her, but also the rest of the INFPs and ISFPs.


How is it disrespectful towards someone if that person says something about herself and I agree because I saw this in other people of her type?


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> How is it disrespectful towards someone if that person says something about herself and I agree because I saw this in other people of her type?


It's simply not true that all Fi-doms gets panic attacks from conflict. She's expressing her experience, so taking it as a statement for all of a certain type is a lazy generalization.

You're not giving a good impression this far.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> It's simply not true that all Fi-doms gets panic attacks from conflict. She's expressing her experience, so taking it as a statement for all of a certain type is a lazy generalization.
> 
> You're not giving a good impression this far.


OMG, of all that snail wrote you cling to the part about panic attacks. smh
Are you maybe PANICKING you could be like that?

Joking aside, how would type distinction be possible if there weren't generalizations?


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> OMG, of all that snail wrote you cling to the part about panic attacks. smh
> Are you maybe PANICKING you could be like that?
> 
> Joking aside, how would type distinction be possible if there weren't generalizations?





> that perfectly describe what an Fi-dom does when conflict arises:


You don't leave much room for interpretation. And now you're just twisting my words, I wrote that it was a lazy generalization.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> You don't leave much room for interpretation. And now you're just twisting my words, I wrote that it was a lazy generalization.


I think you're just nitpicking. I could say the description is ALMOST perfect or it is a good one, you'd still have something to complain about. It probably just bothers you what snail said because it hit home and you didn't like it so you're clinging at straws.
And in the end it doesn't matter that much what I think about snail's words, you can still address what she said and see if anything of what she said is true.

You think it's a lazy generalization, I think it's a good one.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> I think you're just nitpicking. I could say the description is ALMOST perfect or it is a good one, you'd still have something to complain about. It probably just bothers you what snail said because it hit home and you didn't like it so you're clinging at straws.
> And in the end it doesn't matter that much what I think about snail's words, you can still address what she said and see if anything of what she said is true.
> 
> You think it's a lazy generalization, I think it's a good one.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

yedra said:


> I think you're just nitpicking. I could say the description is ALMOST perfect or it is a good one, you'd still have something to complain about. It probably just bothers you what snail said because it hit home and you didn't like it so you're clinging at straws.
> And in the end it doesn't matter that much what I think about snail's words, you can still address what she said and see if anything of what she said is true.
> 
> You think it's a lazy generalization, I think it's a good one.


The only person i see nitpicking is you. Yes YOU could say that the description is almost perfect, this is YOUR perception only. Not everyone perceives things the same way. So what you are doing is trying to manipulate him into buying into your personal perception. Just because YOU say its true, doesn't mean it is, it is not absolute. You are clinging at straws because you can't accept when people have a different perspective than you. So stop with your " Answer me or else tactics, it's making you look like a complete control freak. Everything you had to say in this thread has been either generalizations , or stereotypes. You can't come up with anything logical to support a single word you say. No one is taking you seriously, although you make for some Saturday morning amusement, laughing.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


>



This is all you have to say, really?
Can't you just answer questions in a normal, direct way?
You said you don't have any panic attacks. Well, can you relate to anything cosmicsense and snail said?
Is it so hard to say "yes, that's me" or "no, that's not me" (apart from the panic attacks you don't agree with)?


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> This is all you have to say, really?
> Can't you just answer questions in a normal, direct way?
> You said you don't have any panic attacks. Well, can you relate to anything cosmicsense and snail said?
> Is it so hard to say "yes, that's me" or "no, that's not me" (apart from the panic attacks you don't agree with)?


What's your problem?


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> What's your problem?


This is what I'm talking about. If you're going to post a meaningless one liner, why not refrain from posting a response altogether (and please spare me the "who are you to tell me what to do?" response that is without substance as well).
I'm trying to have a conversation but I don't know what you are trying to do. I've asked you a few questions and you didn't answer them. You can still say if you relate to anything your fellow Fi-doms said. That's all.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

yedra said:


> This is all you have to say, really?
> Can't you just answer questions in a normal, direct way?
> You said you don't have any panic attacks. Well, can you relate to anything cosmicsense and snail said?
> Is it so hard to say "yes, that's me" or "no, that's not me" (apart from the panic attacks you don't agree with)?


This is all you have to say, really ? _Translation = Fe manipulation, let me tell you what you should be doing.
_
Can't you just answer questions in a normal, direct way ?_ Translation = Guilt, manipulation, Fe. Let me tell you what you should be doing.
_

You said you don't have any panic attacks. Well, can you relate to anything cosmicsense and snail said?
Is it so hard to say "yes, that's me" or "no, that's not me" (apart from the panic attacks you don't agree with)? Translation = guilt, manipulation =_ Fe..Let me tell you what to do and how to do it. I will fix you, if only you will let me tell you what to do and how to do it. Fe says, how dare you not answer me. Fi says, go fuck yourself..hahaha_

This thread is about showing the differences between Fi and Fe, so i feel like i'm within the boundaries of the thread to point out a few of those differences. Classic.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> This is what I'm talking about. If you're going to post a meaningless one liner, why not refrain from posting a response altogether (and please spare me the "who are you to tell me what to do?" response that is without substance as well).
> I'm trying to have a conversation but I don't know what you are trying to do. I've asked you a few questions and you didn't answer them. You can still say if you relate to anything your fellow Fi-doms said. That's all.


I could answer, but I don't feel like it. That's Fi-dom for you.


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## Joseph (Jun 20, 2012)

I have never had panic attacks during fights/conflict. 

The few physical fights I've seen were mostly at parties, concerts, or outside bars. I never stepped in during a verbal fight between strangers. I actively stopped one bar fight between strangers when there was a lot of blood being spilled and weapons, I was afraid of collateral damage to myself. If it's a typical drunk brawl I let others break it up because I don't really care. The two times I have angrily stepped in to fight someone was when a stranger groped my SO while she was passed out drunk next to me, and in high school when a friend of my little brother was getting mugged by teens my age. 

Take that as you will.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> I could answer, but I don't feel like it. That's Fi-dom for you.


You don't answer because you know I'm right.
Or you just feel overwhelmed when you actually have to debate a point in a concise and logical manner. That's Fi-dom as well!


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

yedra said:


> You don't answer because you know I'm right.
> Or you just feel overwhelmed when you actually have to debate a point in a concise and logical manner. That's Fi-dom as well!


Or because I don't think that you deserve the effort from me to actually take you seriously.


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## Yedra (Jul 28, 2012)

Inguz said:


> Or because I don't think that you deserve the effort from me to actually take you seriously.


Okay.
Have a nice day!


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## Napoleptic (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm no expert at cognitive functions, but I thought I'd comment on a couple of things as a Fi-user.

As far as the original topic is concerned, I generally don't seek to be seen as helpful - in fact, I'd rather remain invisible (Enneagram 9 "Nobody Special"). However, what does upset me is when something I've done out of a desire to be helpful - or even when something I've done out with intentions other than being helpful but that ends up being seen that way - is misunderstood. I rarely want to be seen as helpful, just good-intentioned, and when those intentions are misunderstood it can be pretty painful for me.

As for solving arguments, I don't mind debates if it's just exchanging and correcting of facts. When it gets personal/emotional, then I generally try to get the parties to see what they have in common, or to try to understand where the others are coming from. I do not, however, try to get anyone to change their mind/opinion. That's their prerogative, I just can't stand when people won't examine how others reached their conclusions - there usually is some reason that makes sense for them to think that, regardless of whether you agree or not. I think it comes from my own preference in coming to a position or something - information, input, and insight are welcome...but don't try to influence me with the intent to push me toward your own position. Not that I don't do it either. 

I would also add that a lot of the negative stereotypes being thrown around are probably examples of immature function use - many of the mistakes we make from our limitations on inferior function use would hopefully taper over the years as we mature and grow.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

yedra said:


> And this is all I was talking about. Your primary goal was to stop the fight. And to me there lies the difference between an Fe and Fi person.


You cannot generalize an entire group of people based on the comments of one person. 



> An Fe user will try to make the people understand why they are fighting in the first place and if the mediating is successful the argument will be solved by understanding where the other is coming from. Fi-doms don't solve a conflict, they stop it.


This isn't true. There are actually tons of Fe users who will aim to stop any conflict what so ever because they believe it will harm the unity and strength of the group if there are dissenters of it. It is often said that Fe is the most diplomatic function of all because it aims to stop conflict and have people generalize things so that there is inner harmony between the core group. Fe emphasizes group unity more then anything else and the norms of others. Fe would be more damaged by conflict then Fi would. Fi only cares about itself and what it feels and believes. Fe is the one that cares what others think about things and if they are in accordance with those external norms they are judging themselves by. Fi types however have been noted to be quite combative if their feelings go against the current of other generalized/homogenized believers. What you are saying is not true for all people. You seem to know nothing about cognitive function and expression of the personality. Fe is much more conducive to avoiding conflict or stopping conflict. Fi is much more conducive to making sure it's own inner ideals and judgments are maintained for themselves. 



> Fi-aux don't have an aversion to conflict like Fi-doms have but I still have to meet an ESFP or ENFP who give logical arguments in a discussion. From what I've seen from ESFPs is that they won't bow down but they won't have much patience either and they are easy to get along with anyway. ENFPs will piss me off by going on forever without saying anything. They will say that they show you possibilities, I'll call it diluting the subject.


I am starting to question if you know any Fi doms at all, usually when people look at Fi doms what they will see is their external thinking more then any other function. They often get mistyped by people as Te types because that is what Fi uses to openly express things to others in the external world. 



yedra said:


> I'm trying to have a conversation but I don't know what you are trying to do. I've asked you a few questions and you didn't answer them. You can still say if you relate to anything your fellow Fi-doms said. That's all.


You don't want to have a conversation at all, you want your beliefs/opinions upheld and you aren't giving any room for there to be a conversation for any differences. You just want him (and others) to agree with you.


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## Tyche (May 12, 2011)

As a type 2, I do like to be seen as helpful, but what's more important to me, is how I view myself. Other people may see me as helpful and that will inflate my ego some, but if I don't feel it, then I will believe those who say I'm being helpful are mistaken. I will brush such acts off as "no big deal," "common courtesy" and "not really all that helpful." It is more important to me that I live up to my expectations for myself and that I stay true to my values. I don't help out of a societal obligation, but an internal pull and drive to be of service. 

When it comes to solving problems, my biggest concern is getting people to see all sides of the argument. As in each opposing side, my side and the outside observers side. I think it's important for people to understand that they effect more than just each other when arguing. I do not force people to change their opinions and will state several times that I believe to each their own. But it's a travesty to me to not try to understand where others are coming from. If you have an opinion, how can you form it without knowing how and why others believe what they believe? My aim isn't to stop an argument, but to help people to better understand each other, perhaps to prevent future arguments. 

Conflict doesn't bother me. Sometimes I even like it. I will fight for my own values, even if the fight is fruitless. I'll be damned if anyone thinks they have a right to control me in anyway or assume they know everything about me---particularly through my MBTI and enneagram types. Being of one type or another doesn't mean you're going to act like everyone else of that type. There are some generalizations that can be made, like ways of thinking, but blanket statements like "ENFPs are bad listeners" is both false and possibly typist.


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