# Fe vs. Fi judgemental



## OliveBranch (Aug 30, 2017)

This is just a thought that popped into my brain. Both functions have the potential to posess judgemental qualities. Fe is judgemental in an action based manner, Fi is judgemental in terms of morality. This seems to generally be the case, but it's very individual as to who is judgemental or not. I've noticed that Fe-Ti/Ti-Fe users can be pretty critical of the world around them. I'm not saying high Te users aren't judgemental of people, but it's more so an objection to their opinions. Fi is quite critical of the world's moral state. Fe can be too, because it'is generally a feeler trait. However, when Fi is critical of the world's moral state, it separates itself from the world. Both Ti and Fi can be pretty jaded functions.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

No functions are jaded, judgmental, or critical. People are. People decide how they use their cognitive functions; the functions don't just take on their own individual personalities.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

We can all be dicks.
As far as 'functions' go, it says in _Gifts Differing_ not to use your J on people, and roll with P instead.
I feel like I've naturally known this my whole life. lol.


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## OliveBranch (Aug 30, 2017)

Spine Crusher said:


> No functions are jaded, judgmental, or critical. People are. People decide how they use their cognitive functions; the functions don't just take on their own individual personalities.


Oh no, I agree completely, but the way in which it manifests is different depending on your preferences.


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## Daiz (Jan 4, 2017)

> However, when Fi is critical of the world's moral state, it separates itself from the world.


Can you elaborate on this? How can one separate themselves from the world when they are definitely part of it? Do you mean they view themselves as somehow exempt from the judgement they pass on humanity?


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Daiz said:


> Can you elaborate on this? How can one separate themselves from the world when they are definitely part of it? Do you mean they view themselves as somehow exempt from the judgement they pass on humanity?


A holier than thou attitude, I presume, is the intention here.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Fe judges people on what they say and do, which is fair. But they don't seem to give a rat's ass about that individual's unique circumstances and what drove them to do and say the things they did. 

Fi has much more respect for people's individuals needs and expression but they also totally subjectively decide what makes one worthy of attention or not. They can love someone shitty for the most asinine reasons and vice-versa, hate someone........just because.


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## Pastelle (Dec 12, 2016)

Stevester said:


> Fe judges people on what they say and do, which is fair. *But they don't seem to give a rat's ass about that individual's unique circumstances and what drove them to do and say the things they did.*


I always figured it was the other way around; that heavy fi usage prevents one from deviating from what is personally thought acceptable over the situational need.


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## nep2une (Jun 15, 2017)

Stevester said:


> Fe judges people on what they say and do, which is fair. But they don't seem to give a rat's ass about that individual's unique circumstances and what drove them to do and say the things they did.


Yeah, sounds about right. Not that I can't acknowledge unique circumstances or have a little voice in my head telling me that maybe I should. Usually I feel too frustrated and angry to want to... but then I still feel like maybe, just maybe, I should. 

Like this internal thought process of, 'Why in the hell would they have thought this was okay in the first place...? Whatever their reasons were, this is really testing my patience... Shouldn't they have known better than to do it in the first place? Am I being too harsh?'


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## OliveBranch (Aug 30, 2017)

Daiz said:


> Can you elaborate on this? How can one separate themselves from the world when they are definitely part of it? Do you mean they view themselves as somehow exempt from the judgement they pass on humanity?


Well, it's more of a state that high Fi users can go into (maybe others as well) when they view the world as "too cruel." A way to deal with that is by escaping, as it seems like the world doesn't care that it's cruel. It's quite unproductive, but it's sometimes the natural response.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I think I might have misused my words here. If anything Fe is more sensitive and aware of people's personal circumstances in a sense of _''She just went through a divorce, please be kind to her''_ sorta way. Whereas Fi will probably think we all go through hardship and it's no excuse for special treatment. Well.......okay that might be more of a TJ thing than an FP thing but I digress...

But what I meant to say is that Fe seems more oblivious to or unwilling to acknowledge people's personal quirks and individual traits. For instance in my last job, there was this weird ass INTP guy who always had a deadpan expression on his face, almost never spoke and when he did it was something usually awkwardly humoristic. I thought he was a riot, but every single FJ type (and some other TP types) would ask what the hell is wrong with him and were borderline offended by his mere presence. 

Fe just seems very initially accepting of others immediately without question, but then it seems like it comes with _conditions_ like, _''I know you are this way, but can you tone it down in these circumstances''_ kinda way.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

On a broad level I tend to agree. Fi is sort of responsive judgment, building a universal network of ethics based on the way we feel and see things play out in life. I tend to think of it as a tree, always growing, always becoming larger and more detailed - and also as an ocean inside me whose climate shifts as a result of what I experience. Fe seems more active, taking into account what is currently present in the environment and making more situationally-tailored judgments. In general it does seem like people with more Fi focus more on intention and people with more Fe focus more on behavior. 



Pastelle said:


> that heavy fi usage prevents one from deviating from what is personally thought acceptable over the situational need.


Right - I think we wouldn't tend to perceive a need that lies outside our ethical boundaries. Like - I would perceive a "need" to kill myself before I would perceive a "need" to execute my family. (Not to say that a Fe user wouldn't arrive at the same conclusion - just to demonstrate that I think you are accurate in that we are sort of willfully bound by our own sense of morality). I think a fairly mature Fi user is typically able to accept that not everyone is morally the same and that we cannot _always_ apply our own personal sense of morality to everyone, but I do think we tend to do our best to eke out universals, and therefore generally tend to apply our morality to others. 

It is interesting how both Fe and Fi can seem more accepting of others and difference. Fi tends to be more passively accepting, to draw in difference without any hesitation until a certain line is crossed. Fe tends to be more actively welcoming of certain things and redirecting of others, but I've noticed that Fe users are also generally better at embracing someone who has done a wrong and hasn't really processed it through yet. Fi users tend to have interest and deep care for "people on the edge of the night" - we ourselves relate to a certain extent and I think we're often the ones who bring the less "acceptable" slowly into the mainstream consciousness - we may be more of the ones to push for legislation and action - but I think it's Fe users who do more of the legwork of really actively helping those people in deepest need. And that all makes sense. Fi is an introverted function and Fe is extraverted, after all. Fi works on more of an internal level while Fe's strength is in bridging out to the external world.


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## Daiz (Jan 4, 2017)

Stevester said:


> Fe judges people on what they say and do, which is fair. But they don't seem to give a rat's ass about that individual's unique circumstances and what drove them to do and say the things they did.


I can see why people might think this but it's not true. It's a massive problem - especially on the internet today - that people look only at the outcome of a person's action and not the intent behind it. To turn on a person with good intentions because they've unintentionally done something harmful is a grave mistake. A person's thoughts/feelings control their actions; to look only at the outer consequences and not the internal driving factors is to deliberately pass judgement with only half the information.

You don't have to be an Fi user to see this, although an Fe user may possibly be more likely to look at a person's circumstances and intent and still decide they don't get a free pass. For example, true ignorance might gain someone forgiveness but if someone has had the opportunity to educate themselves, or people have explained why their actions are wrong and that person has ignored them, then that person will be judged.

EDIT: I just saw that you already addressed this and said it's more Fi, ha. Interesting. Maybe it IS Fi. 

Maybe I need to actually do some proper in-depth research instead of just saying I will lmao


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## Heat Mirage (Jan 28, 2010)

Stevester said:


> For instance in my last job, there was this weird ass INTP guy who always had a deadpan expression on his face, almost never spoke and when he did it was something usually awkwardly humoristic. I thought he was a riot, but every single FJ type (and some other TP types) would ask what the hell is wrong with him and were borderline offended by his mere presence.


me irl





lol


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## Davidkal (Jul 19, 2017)

Both Fi and Fe can be very judgemental..It's just that Fe judges people based on the "objective" morals of the society and doesn't really care about individuality.For example even the "divorce" example that I saw above is a very objective moral.A divorce is supposed to be a disaster for a person.
Fi judges people usually more individually,based on their own personal criteria,they tend to need more details and personal info to judge a situation. (except of the case that the situation is very obviously morally wrong)
For example according to my experience: If you suddenly stop studying for school and start getting bad grades,all xSFJs are gonna assume that you just "lost your way" and became a loser.And the opposite.(except in the case that they heard that my parents got a divorce or smth)
IxFPs and ExFPs don't care about the objective facts (the fact that I started flopping at school) as much as they care about what they already think of you and the reasons that you are doing bad at school. 
However according to my experience XNFJs are more slow and analytical with their judgement than SFJs,but if they are in a crowd that already has an opinion they will probably follow that.


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## Daiz (Jan 4, 2017)

Davidkal said:


> Both Fi and Fe can be very judgemental..It's just that Fe judges people based on the "objective" morals of the society and doesn't really care about individuality.For example even the "divorce" example that I saw above is a very objective moral.A divorce is supposed to be a disaster for a person.
> Fi judges people usually more individually,based on their own personal criteria,they tend to need more details and personal info to judge a situation. (except of the case that the situation is very obviously morally wrong)
> For example according to my experience: If you suddenly stop studying for school and start getting bad grades,all xSFJs are gonna assume that you just "lost your way" and became a loser.And the opposite.(except in the case that they heard that my parents got a divorce or smth)
> IxFPs and ExFPs don't care about the objective facts (the fact that I started flopping at school) as much as they care about what they already think of you and the reasons that you are doing bad at school.
> However according to my experience XNFJs are more slow and analytical with their judgement than SFJs,but if they are in a crowd that already has an opinion they will probably follow that.


I'm not sure XNFJs will automatically follow the crowd but if we have an opinion and everyone else disagrees, or even just the people we respect do, we'll put a lot of weight on that, and if we STILL find we don't agree with the majority, it will trouble us greatly. I know that I personally will be plagued by the sense that I'm potentially on the wrong side.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Both Fi and Fe _are _judgmental that's literally their role - judge the value of things, either objectively (Fe) or subjectively (Fi).
You're not supposed to slam people with your J function, _apparently_. But, some people do it anyways.

*Fe*, aligned with the stereotypes - does indeed judge things in accordance with it's social environment - there is an example in _Psychological Types_ of Fe saying a painting is beautiful, due to the surroundings - it's on the wall, it's in an art museum, _objectively_, it is beautiful.
Fe is a situational evaluation function.

*Fi*, on the other hand - is subjective - can be independent of external stimuli ala the social environment - essentially, Fi abstracts the value of things, i.e removes them from _context _and evaluates the value itself.
Fi then, would be more capable of seeing the painting as it is, on it's own, removed from that social environment, and evaluate it accordingly - perhaps the painting isn't beautiful. Perhaps it is. The decision is for the Fi type to make, and will not be influenced by context.

It is easy to imagine how each of these types could be judgmental with regards to people - simply replace the painting with a person.

Now you can imagine an Fe type talking behind someones back - agreeing with other people - 'getting along' in one situation, and saying different things in another situation with different people.
Fe adapts with the environment, context is everything.

Fi doesn't give two shits about context, if the Fi type likes someone, even within the confines of a social environment that opposes this notion - Fi will still know that it likes the person, likewise, with dislikes.
Context is nothing to the Fi type, what matters is how the Fi individual evaluates the person.
Of course - not everybody is dumb enough to speak their mind 24/7, the environment may not support you calling out "nah, Johnnys a fuckwit" amongst all of Johnnys friends - but the idea is that Fi will know how it _personally _values Johnny.

Fe gets caught up in context. It does not abstractly evaluate Johnny.
Fe isn't even being disingenuous, manipulative or fake - it's being true to itself - Fe types are oriented towards the object, libido outwards, the outside world is what matters, and Fe being true to its Fe self, can appear as false to the Fi type.

Likewise, Fi can appear false to the Fe type:

*Fi *- the painting is terrible.
*Fe *- no, it's beautiful, it wouldn't be in a fucking art museum if it was terrible.
*Fi *- doesn't matter where it is, it's shit.
*Fe *- you're so full of shit, why would it even be here if it was shit? 

Each thinks the other is fake/lying in this example.
Replace the painting with one of your favourite bands and it becomes more easy to relate to.

*Fi *- _Kings of Leon_ are shit.
*Fe *- The fuck? They've got X amount of hits, how can they be shit? I get _you _can think they're shit, but _fact _is they aren't shit, _hence the hits_.
*Fi *- Who cares about hits? I don't like them, that's all that matters.
*Fe * - To _you_, but they _wouldn't be on the charts_ if they sucked.
*Fi *- *incoherent ramble about nobody having a mind of their own and being brainwashed by radio waves*

I'm not implying Fe types just always like what everyone else likes here, it's the point I'm trying to get across.
There's literally no reason an Fe type wouldn't say "yeah, I'm not a fan of them either" and depending on the _context _this might even be _the _Fe thing to say, regardless of their own opinion.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

I would phrase it a little differently: 

Fi judges based on personal values. This can come off as judgmental to those that don't share these values

Fe judges based on 'group values'. This can be a group of 2, 5, 25 or maybe even the entire human race (as this person would see that in any case). Fe tries to formulate these group values and either fit the values to the specific group or extract them from the consensus among the group. Fe is also situational, different groups may have different sets of values. 
This means that Fe can come off as judgmental to those outside of the group, or those not sharing the 'group values' as the Fe-user defines them. Fe can also be very judgmental to people within the group who don't really share the values of the group. 

In both cases it's a difference of values, but the scope of how the user defines these values is different. In practice, you may not even notice a difference. The Fe-user and Fi-user will both defend these ideals with great energy. The source of the values is just different.


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## lungdealer (Feb 15, 2018)

Spine Crusher said:


> No functions are jaded, judgmental, or critical. People are. People decide how they use their cognitive functions; the functions don't just take on their own individual personalities.


ummm... miss im raising my finger.

i think that each function is a trigger in the brain at a certain moment. you can always try to change the function with what you have, but its your brain that controls you.. like it controls how you breathe... and it's automatic. you don't even need to think about it anymore. it should just come out.. as much as you write. unless if you have total control over your emotions? I don't know...

i'm still wondering what functions i have, but i know i have Ni dominant. maybe this is only a case for Ni, since it gets lost into itself for time and doesn't understand fuck all they say until they bring it back with Si. or Se. But Ni in itself has Si capabilities.. they are just hidden. Anyway, this is over what the discussion is about, but i think that your brain calculates the best function to be used in a certain situation and uses it.

But like OP said, it's a preference.


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## nep2une (Jun 15, 2017)

Stevester said:


> I think I might have misused my words here. If anything Fe is more sensitive and aware of people's personal circumstances in a sense of _''She just went through a divorce, please be kind to her''_ sorta way.


I do this, many people probably do this, but anyway as an example:

Years back, I had a friend who was being a bit cold and judgmental towards another friend because some girl he had known for three days said she loved him and he said it back. I got on her ass a little bit about that because I knew the guy was awkward and lonely and hadn't had success with any of his long string of crushes, so he probably didn't want to risk rejection by not saying it back. Plus, it wasn't like he was the one who said it first. It was her. She put him on the spot. And he was a teenage boy with no relationship experience. 

It was stupid to say "I love you" to someone he knew for only three days and he could have just walked away or said something about it being too sudden, but I wanted to have sympathy for him.



Stevester said:


> Whereas Fi will probably think we all go through hardship and it's no excuse for special treatment. Well.......okay that might be more of a TJ thing than an FP thing but I digress...


lol, yes, this is probably more of a TJ thing. 



Stevester said:


> But what I meant to say is that Fe seems more oblivious to or unwilling to acknowledge people's personal quirks and individual traits. For instance in my last job, there was this weird ass INTP guy who always had a deadpan expression on his face, almost never spoke and when he did it was something usually awkwardly humoristic. I thought he was a riot, but every single FJ type (and some other TP types) would ask what the hell is wrong with him and were borderline offended by his mere presence.


Were these "awkwardly humoristic" comments something edgy? That will do it. :wink:

(doubting it, just poking fun at a stereotypical FJ trait)



Stevester said:


> Fe just seems very initially accepting of others immediately without question, but then it seems like it comes with _conditions_ like, _''I know you are this way, but can you tone it down in these circumstances''_ kinda way.


Yeah, I still relate to all you've said. Except I'm not sure what my reaction would be to this co-worker you've mentioned. 



angelfish said:


> On a broad level I tend to agree. Fi is sort of responsive judgment, building a universal network of ethics based on the way we feel and see things play out in life. I tend to think of it as a tree, always growing, always becoming larger and more detailed - and also as an ocean inside me whose climate shifts as a result of what I experience. Fe seems more active, taking into account what is currently present in the environment and making more situationally-tailored judgments. In general it does seem like people with more Fi focus more on intention and people with more Fe focus more on behavior.


I wonder if an ISFP would see it in the same way you do. 



Daiz said:


> I can see why people might think this but it's not true. It's a massive problem - especially on the internet today - that people look only at the outcome of a person's action and not the intent behind it. To turn on a person with good intentions because they've unintentionally done something harmful is a grave mistake. A person's thoughts/feelings control their actions; to look only at the outer consequences and not the internal driving factors is to deliberately pass judgement with only half the information.
> 
> You don't have to be an Fi user to see this, although an Fe user may possibly be more likely to look at a person's circumstances and intent and still decide they don't get a free pass. For example, true ignorance might gain someone forgiveness but if someone has had the opportunity to educate themselves, or people have explained why their actions are wrong and that person has ignored them, then that person will be judged.
> 
> ...


There's someone specific I can think of who has had that kind of backlash against her over something petty when she didn't deserve it at all. 

I think on the other side of the coin, though, there exists people who accept way too readily someone saying "I had good intentions, I didn't mean for this to happen, I didn't know..." Because sometimes, yes, that might really be the case but there are times where that's basically just disingenuous bullshit, dodging responsibility and refusing to hear and take in criticism. This is probably more likely to be the case if this is something they've had to say over and over again, on different occasions. 

That's with the assumption that the person is being deceitful in some way and didn't actually just make a mistake unintentionally. I guess I'm bringing up that possibility because sometimes it's hard to tell what's the truth or not or if you can accept what they're saying at face-value.

I know it's a struggle within myself to know when to judge harshly and when to think, 'Okay, they had good intentions. They just made a mistake. I will take it easy on them.'

Because either done mistakenly could result in you either letting someone get away with something when they shouldn't be or you're condemning someone who doesn't need to be condemned. The former was more of my tendency in the past than the latter (when I was a pushover who saw the world in too much grey, which is an *extreme* in its own right), so I tend to be more afraid of doing that again than the latter. But I'm aware of the potential of accidentally condemning the wrong person as well. Like I said, it's an internal conflict.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

nep2une said:


> I wonder if an ISFP would see it in the same way you do.


Well, here are a couple old posts on the subject from ISFPs.



IndyGhost2010 said:


> Fi is basically an internal compass. For me personally... I'd say, Yes, I am highly emotional and very sensitive. My moods are constantly fluctuating, from good, bad, happy, sad, and everything in the middle. I'm also generally highly aware of my different states. Also, knowing how I would feel in certain situations, such as in situations of inequality, I'll decide that something is morally wrong, finding things in the realm of inequality as just that, unfair. Why should any one born into one situation be granted more or less based upon such? These are the types of questions I ask and conclude are completely outdated ideas. On a smaller scale, I also generally try to treat people fair and equally and with kindness. If someone upsets me, I may react negatively, but will generally feel the guilt from it later. I've begun making it a point to apologize for negative irrational behavior, so that people know I generally mean well but can be moody. This is something I decided with my Fi.





Elovan said:


> Basically, Fi is having an internal set of core values on which you base your decisions and life choices. Everything in life that you experience is compared to this set of values which determines whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, and what/whether we should do anything about it. It could be a religion or just a personally determined set of what is right and wrong. The difference between Fi and Fe is that Fi is based on internal, personal values, while Fe bases it's judgements on the values of the group/society. Fe is more outward, people focused, while Fi focuses on the self.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm wondering what you are defining as judgemental. All judging functions: Fi, Ti, Fe, Te draw conclusions about objects/subjective experiences based on their P functions: Si, Ni, Se, Ne. I'm not certain where the "being judgemental" falls into the mix in the purely theoretical model. It's only when these functions are present in a human does that huuman choose to form negative or positive judgements based on the schema and generalizations they make. Everyone is prone to doing this. I don't think this is a Fi vs Fe thing. 

I can feel just as "judged" by someone declairing their personal values (Fi) as by someone correcting my spelling (Ti) as by someone suggesting that I'm making someone else feel uncomfortable (Fe) as by someone suggesting that I might need to do something differently to get better results (Te). The feeling of being judged is also subjective, so unless the person is an out-loud jerk, it's not necissarily an indication of being judged if one feels judged.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

I love those bitchy/judgmental (Fe)-dom Coscos SAHMs. So fun at parties - spilling all the dirt and secret(s).


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