# Counter-phobic 6s: Come Ye Forth And Be Ye Numbered!



## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

This is a silly question, but I'm too lazy to research it right now:

Do the other Enneagram types come in two varieties, like 6 phobic and counterphobic? Where can I read about that?


----------



## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

double post


----------



## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

FlaviaGemina said:


> This is a silly question, but I'm too lazy to research it right now:
> 
> Do the other Enneagram types come in two varieties, like 6 phobic and counterphobic? Where can I read about that?


http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/328434-type-counter-type.html

The following material is interesting as well. 
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-passion-7-ask-me-anything-6.html#post4502291



* *





*Passion and Counterpassion*
_Is Type Six different from the others? Or do other types portray similar dualistic characteristics?_
Fabien and Patricia Chabreuil
When learning the Enneagram, many people are surprised to discover that, unlike other types, point Six has two expressions of personality: phobic and counterphobic. This phenomenon is often perceived as an anomaly. It is difficult to understand why only point Six has two distinct versions. One begins to wonder whether this dualistic approach may be applied to other types. Some existing Enneagram literature does suggest a two entity approach to all the types, not just Six.

In the May 1996 issue of Enneagram Monthly, Claudio Naranjo attributed the difference between the two forms of Six to its subtypes. He affirmed that it was possible to generalize this approach to all the types. For example, the sexual subtype of Four, Competition, he described as "competitive and hateful," the social Four was "shy and melodramatic;" and the Self Preservation Four looked very much like a One and was more self-contained or "counter-dependent" and didn't look like a Four at all. [1] 

Admittedly, people of the same type can appear extremely different due to their subtype. For example, there is a strong connection between the phobic-counterphobic duality and the Six subtypes: the Self-preserving (warmth) and the Social (duty) Six are more often phobic and the Sexual (strength-beauty) Six is usually counterphobic. However, the duality of the Six seems to have another aspect: the subtypes are different ways of living the emotional passion. Whereas the Six's phobic and counterphobic duality centers on the awareness or the denial of fear. Similarly, the sexual Four cited by Naranjo doesn't deny his passion of envy; he knows he wants to have something that someone else has and is competitive in order to acquire it.

Another approach consists of remembering that the difference between phobic and counterphobic Sixes is only a different way to name what Oscar Ichazo called the dichotomy of the Six: pushy-surrender. Ichazo assigned a dichotomy to each type. Thus, in theory, the Six duality echoes Ichazo's standard. By using dichotomies, we could consider two distinct versions in each type. [2]

However, here again, the phobic-counterphobic duality of the Six differs from other points. Ichazo's dichotomies define each type's two ways of living in what he calls one of the nine domains of consciousness (Feelings; Health and security; Creativity; Intellect; Social; Work, activities and leisure; Power, hierarchy and rank; Law and moral; Spirituality). These domains are indirectly connected to each type's passion.

To further illustrate this train of thought, we'll analyze with more precision the phobic and counterphobic duality of Six.

Phobic and Counterphobic Sixes
Three concepts are central to understanding the phobic-counterphobic duality of the Six:

1. The duality of the Six is in direct relationship to its passion: fear. In both cases, fear (like the other characteristics of the type) is present. Phobic Sixes know that they're afraid and show it. Counterphobic Sixes also are afraid; however, they deny their fear and seek to prove to others, and themselves, that they can distroy the danger.

2. Counterphobic Sixes often believe that they're practicing the virtue of their type: courage. However, counterphobia is severe and cutthroat.

Some Sixes, and even other types, may find this difficult to admit because the passions in the triangle (3-6-9) are universal emotions. Many people tend to believe that courage is needed to control fear. In fact, fear is the passion of Sixes, the chief feature of the emotional center of their egos; whereas, courage is the virtue of the type, the function of the higher emotional center of their essence. Thus, as long as there is the passion of fear, there is ego. This is sometimes easier to understand in relation to other types. For example, Ones can easily admit that patience does not consist of feeling the anger, then repressing it, and behaving patiently. This is not virtue, it is reaction-formation, the Ones' principal defense mechanism. True patience is immediate, not preceded by anger. [3]

The majority of Sixes' fears are unrealistic and do not have to be felt (phobic) or be denied (counterphobic). An integrated Six can occasionally feel fear if:
- the fear corresponds to a real danger;
- the fear is not the principal focus of attention;
- the fear is accepted, but not prolonged, amplified, extended to other circumstances, or projected on other people.
In that case, fear is a normal emotion, a positive signal pointing out the reality of the environment. The Six's relationship with fear is summarized below:

The Six is conscious of fear The Six is not conscious of fear 
The situation is objectively dangerous The fear is a normal emotion and is not a manifestation of the passion.
The virtue of courage is lived or not. Counterphobia 
There is no objective danger Phobia Counterphobia 


Definition of the notion of Counterpassion
Once this analysis is made, it becomes relatively easy to identify an analogous phenomenon in the other eight types. One of our students, Bénédicte Gasnier, suggested the term "counterpassion" to describe the same emotional quality expressed in two different ways.

People are expressing their counterpassion if they are:
1 …living in their passion;
2 …not conscious of their passion and denying it openly;
3 …behaving in a manner contrary to the attitude which would be induced by their passion;
4 …attaching a positive value to these behaviors. They may confuse counterpassion and integration, especially if they know the Enneagram and assume these behaviors resemble the virtue aspect of their type.

At the same time, this concept does not change the structure of the type: its preferred center, passion or fixation. As with point Six, these structures remain the same whether the person behaves from passion or counterpassion.

The Counterpassions of Each Type
Some brief examples of the counterpassions of the nine Enneagram types.



One: Renouncement
The passion of Ones is anger. The counterpassion of Ones is a caricature of the virtue of patience; in these moments, Ones want to be tolerant, neutral, and objective. They let others get away with errors. They think they are indulgent, magnanimous and understanding of others. Nevertheless, Ones notice errors, which shows that they are still being judgmental. Anger bubbles up inside them even if they are not aware of it. Ones' counterpassion is close to, if not equivalent to, its principal defense mechanism, reaction-formation, and consequently is one of the most thoroughly discussed counterpassions in classic type descriptions.

Two: Self-effacing
The passion of Twos is pride. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of humility. In these moments, Twos want to keep themselves in the background and say that they are nothing much. For example, they might affirm that their assistance was only a small act of helpfulness among many others. They can also insist that what others bring to them is richer than their contribution, or that the love they give does not come from them, that they are merely a channel for love. Pride is there, of course, and the Twos did nothing but refocus the attention: it is not about being proud of the assistance that they bring, but of their false humility.

Three: Self-restraint
The passion of Threes is deceit. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of truth in which Threes try to appear reserved and discrete. When in counterpassion, Threes do not exhibit their achievements or they down-play them; they center their attention and their interest on the other. Threes may consider themselves shy, or others may perceive them as shy. In reality, this reserved approach regarding success and competence is an unconscious action to lower expectations and thereby avoid failure, or minimize its possible effects.

Four: Self-sufficiency
The passion of Fours is envy. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of contentment. At that time, Fours want to appear self-sufficient. They claim to be satisfied with who they are and what they have. What others have that they lack is hence useless, devoid of interest and they are happy to do without. In French literature, there is a famous fable, by Jean de La Fontaine, that describes the counterpassion of the Four and reveals a transparent haughtiness and the persistence of envy.

The Fox and the Grapes
(Book III, fable 11)
Translated by Norman B. Spector

A certain Gascon Fox, a Norman one others say,
Famished, saw on a trellis, up high to his chagrin,
Grapes, clearly ripe that day,
And all covered with purple skin.
The rogue would have had a meal for the gods,
But, having tried to reach them in vain,
"They're too green," he said, "and just suitable for clods."

Didn't he do better than to complain?

Five: Extravagance
The passion of Fives is avarice. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of unselfishness. Then Fives want to appear generous. They will give an enormous amount of information about their subject of interest, holding mini-conferences about almost any situation. Avarice is there, however, because they manage to give this information to people who do not desire it and, thus, inevitably will not understand it or use it. Sometimes Fives unconsciously give subtly incomplete or veiled answers.

Six: Temerity
The passion of Sixes is fear. The counterpassion is a overcompensation from fear. In these situations, Sixes are harsh; they aggressively face dangers. This is the counterphobic Six so often described in Enneagram literature.

Seven: Austerity
The passion of Sevens is gluttony. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of sobriety or temperance. Sevens may then practice excessive self-control. They want to appear to be serious. They don't allow themselves any joy or rest. They limit their mental capacities, by either underusing them or focalizing them too much. They are proud of this seriousness that gives them a sort of masochistic happiness. The passion of gluttony appears as an excess of control. More is better: the battle cry of Sevens is still present, only now its focus has changed.

Eight: Waryness
The passion of Eights is excess and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of simplicity. In which case, Eights want to appear careful, measured and decent. They are reticent, hold back their anger; and may choose an ascetic way of life. However, even in these circumstances, Eights continue to go to extremes. An excess of simplicity is still excess. In Eights, the passion-counterpassion duality resembles Ichazo's term for the Eight's dichotomy, hedonist-puritan.

Nine: Hyperactivity
The passion of Nines is sloth and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of activity. Nines are then hyperactive, perpetually agitated and overloaded with tasks. Although they often produce quantities of work effectively, idleness is still present: these activities are practical but have the effect that the more Nines do, the more they forget themselves. This counterpassion is one of the first we observed, and we interpreted it at the time that these Nines use work and activities as a means of narcotisation (their principal defense mechanism).
An even more subtle form of Nine's counterpassion is a hyperactive pursuit personal development. Such Nines devour books, workshops, therapists, and gurus. They profess to thirst after self-knowledge; however, they end up spinning their wheels, changing nothing.

Using the Concept of Counterpassion
The interest in using this counterpassion concept is two-fold and once again, we can apply what we have observed with the examples of phobic and counterphobic Six to all types.

The first application is educational. As teachers and impassioned lovers of the Enneagram, we want people to benefit from this extraordinary system and, of course, it all starts with identifying one's type.

Counterphobic Sixes typically have difficulty identifying their Enneagram type. This is normal since counterphobia encourages them to deny the principal characteristic of their type, fear. Sometimes this type is difficult to identify from the outside for the same reason. However, Sixes are not the only ones with this problem. In all other types, there are people who identify with the passion of their respective type or with its counterpassion. Being familiar with this distinction allows people who are more identified with counterpassion to more easily identify their types, and begin the Enneagram path of psycho-spiritual development.

Understanding the concept of counterpassion decreases the likelihood of misinterpreting our true motives and state of development For example, counterphobic Sixes often believe they are practicing the virtue of courage when they are actually expressing the counterphobic qualities of foolhardiness. Therefore, instead of letting go of their passion, they fight it and try to master it. All the other types may make the same mistake believing they are connected to the virtue of their type while they are actually living out their counterpassion. For example, one of our type Seven students described the way he used this mechanism: "By suppressing the wordplay and mental chatter of Seven, I have become a sinister and haughty individual, without any spontaneity." We know many people who have made the same error, and have not always escaped this tendency ourselves. The discovery of the concept of counterpassion has helped us and we hope it will also help others.


----------



## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> So you've been thrust into a permanent position of inferiority. And even if you've got a reasonable person in a thread who says "Inguz was making very reasonable points, this is no reason to reject his valid argument" you still needed that to prop you up, your own word isn't sufficient. Lack of authority, basically.
> 
> Exactly, this is out and out discrimination. That's what I thought, and you and others (thanks to other respondents) have confirmed that for me.


Well, it really depends how you look at it. 

I don't see retyping from 8 to 6 as a step down. Enneagram can be a tool for personal growth, though you can do without, and you don't need the enneagram to delude yourself or cling to a false sense of identity.


----------



## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Well, it really depends how you look at it.


In this case, it doesn't. 



mimesis said:


> I don't see retyping from 8 to 6 as a step down. Enneagram can be a tool for personal growth, though you can do without, and you don't need the enneagram to delude yourself or cling to a false sense of identity.


There is no excuse for discrimination against type 6. Any explanation of the type which says it is inferior is unacceptable, and talking out of both sides of your mouth about how it is inferior but actually isn't because we stated that arbitrarily isn't any good.

The explanation is what has to go out the window, not just adding in a coda about equality.

It's inferior because people think it is; that's all the reasoning we need.

So we have to change how people think.

We don't do that by telling them to change their conception of what inferiority is.

We do it by changing how we're talking about type 6.


----------



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> In this case, it doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Focusing on exclusive traits or pervasive patterns of types would clear this problem up...........


----------



## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Deus Absconditus said:


> Focusing on exclusive traits or pervasive patterns of types would clear this problem up...........


I agree, insofar as I'm able to follow the discussion. Clear, unambiguous information is a much-needed shot in the arm for typology.


----------



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> I agree, insofar as I'm able to follow the discussion. Clear, *unambiguous information is a much-needed shot in the arm for typology*.


Including those buzzwords that dominant this part of the forum so pervasively but so many people are unaware of which leads to misunderstandings and multiple interpretations between people. If people can't agree on, or understand the terminology then typology itself is pointless because whatever they could be "interpreting" may be wrong, and if everyone is interpreting different things then not all of them can be right. 

End the use of buzzwords.....


----------



## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

mushr00m said:


> @mimesis
> 
> I am confused, what is happening. :shocked:


Ow, I didn't notice your post untill now. But never mind, my bad. I was triggered by the word, but nothing personal.


----------



## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> In this case, it doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really I don't think one type is any better than others. 

Why not say this: hey y'all sixes, just stop worrying, be happy, it's gonna be okay.

Problem solved? Eh no, they'd be 7s.

Type just describes a part of our personality, or ego structure, that revolves around a certain loss of something, a quality or virtue that we (theoretically) all inately possess.

It's not lost forever, but we may use maladaptive strategies that only make it worse. 

For type 4 it is appreciation/gratitude (causing envy)

For type 6 its faith/trust (causing doubt or worry)

The passion is like tunnel vision, so a 4 gets a bit obsessed only focusing on what is missing. Failing to appreciate what is. This can result in a poor (inferior) self image. Not as a static characteristic that keeps sticking, but something that can be fixed. It's significant not because it is exclusive but because it is meaningful from the conditioned perspective of the type.

Anyway, I'd suggest not to identify with type, because it is basically describing a dynamic process, with possible difference depending on instinctual disposition.


----------



## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Really I don't think one type is any better than others.
> 
> Why not say this: hey y'all sixes, just stop worrying, be happy, it's gonna be okay.
> 
> ...


That's nice, but what about my suggestion, that we change the way we discuss type 6? And actually, all types that are downed online. People will identify with type, it's inevitable that many will especially when first learning about it, so it doesn't cut it to say "Don't do that". It's what happens. So we need to change the independent variable, how we talk about type, rather than the dependent variable, how people will feel after identifying with a type and then seeing how it is characterized. 

You didn't seem to engage what I said at all.


----------



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> That's nice, but what about my suggestion, that we change the way we discuss type 6? And actually, all types that are downed online. People will identify with type, it's inevitable that many will especially when first learning about it, so it doesn't cut it to say "Don't do that". It's what happens. So we need to change the independent variable, how we talk about type, rather than the dependent variable, how people will feel after identifying with a type and then seeing how it is characterized.
> 
> You didn't seem to engage what I said at all.


If I may butt in, but maybe you should explain better what you mean by how others should talk about types. What I mean is that you should offer up some suggestions, and we can discuss if they are efficient solutions to the problem or what problems your "solutions" may cause. Everybody views differently which usually ties into how each individual talks about a type, because perception is reality you know. I agree with the point you are trying to make, but what suggestions do you have?


----------



## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Deus Absconditus said:


> If I may butt in, but maybe you should explain better what you mean by how others should talk about types. What I mean is that you should offer up some suggestions, and we can discuss if they are efficient solutions to the problem or what problems your "solutions" may cause. Everybody views differently which usually ties into how each individual talks about a type, because perception is reality you know. I agree with the point you are trying to make, but what suggestions do you have?


Ban anyone who the mods feel is downing a type. One warning, then a permaban. 

Actually I don't think that's a good idea, it would send a message but some knowledgeable people would leave with that kind of treatment, and we don't want that.

I don't have a good idea, frankly. I just think a solution would be nice.


----------



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> Ban anyone who the mods feel is downing a type. One warning, then a permaban.
> 
> Actually I don't think that's a good idea, it would send a message but some knowledgeable people would leave with that kind of treatment, and we don't want that.
> 
> I don't have a good idea, frankly. I just think a solution would be nice.


I was about to say that would have been a horrible plan because its suppressing the opinions of others, which as your pointed out would push away some knowledgeable people, plus those people may have good reason as to why they view the type that way along with the fact that people may view "downing a type" as different which just becomes a game of whose subjective opinion is more generally accepted while banning those who have a minority voice. Definitely need a better solution, but good thing you admitted that you don't have one as of now. 

Since you don't have one I'll offer one, why don't people focus on core mechanics that separate each type, then delve into the limits of those core mechanics while fleshing out the meanings behind any buzz words, or how those buzz words mean under the context of the type being studied. For instance the 6's fear of fear could have someone analyzing what they fear then convincing themselves that maybe they have those fears because they fear having fears rather than fearing the thing itself. 

I think this would do the forum a great deal of good in better understanding what makes each type without attaching values to them.


----------



## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Naranjo called the different types or perspectives "specializations". You could scrap the word "neurosis" and call it "specialization", so an individual can identify with positive transformations of each type, like magmanimous, humble, equanimous and self-creative, courageous, but that would be like attaching to the false self-concept of "counter-passion", as described in the spoiler of @Vajra 's post. 

I'm more inclined to see a retype from 8 to 6 as a token of courage, though I think that's mostly up to the person self to value. The people I know who made that move haven't lost any regard from me, because how I valued them was not dependent on type.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> That's nice, but what about my suggestion, that we change the way we discuss type 6? And actually, all types that are downed online. People will identify with type, it's inevitable that many will especially when first learning about it, so it doesn't cut it to say "Don't do that". It's what happens. So we need to change the independent variable, how we talk about type, rather than the dependent variable, how people will feel after identifying with a type and then seeing how it is characterized.
> 
> You didn't seem to engage what I said at all.


For one thing, I think the most meaningful thing to do would be to stop delineate 6s as phobic and counterphobic. It is so counter-intuitive to the discussion because not only do counterphobic 6s get painted as better (at least they embrace their fears) compared to phobic who are just depicted as scared little bunnies, but when focusing more on how to subdivide 6s, you end up talking more about how 6s are different from each other than what actually unites them, which defeats the purpose of sharing the same classification to begin with. If you share a classification, it means you got one thing in common, not a whole bunch of differences that set you apart.

Furthermore, it will end this nonsense of cp6 vs 8 that keeps cropping up, because once you begin to focus what a 6 actually is by ignoring this all phobic/counterphobic way of delineating the type, one will begin to see how 6 and 8 are so naturally different there is absolutely no reason to ask the question, how is a 6 similar to an 8? because they aren't. 

Personally.


----------



## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Naranjo called the different types or perspectives "specializations". You could scrap the word "neurosis" and call it "specialization", so an individual can identify with positive transformations of each type, like magmanimous, humble, equanimous and self-creative, courageous, but that would be like attaching to the false self-concept of "counter-passion", as described in the spoiler of @_Vajra_ 's post.
> 
> I'm more inclined to see a retype from 8 to 6 as a token of courage, though I think that's mostly up to the person self to value. The people I know who made that move haven't lost any regard from me, because how I valued them was not dependent on type.


Oh, I don't think that there's any question that retyping from 8 to 6 is a sign of courage; especially fitting as the virtue of type 6 is courage! 

To your other point, not to be rude but it isn't relevant how you view them; it's only relevant how they view themselves and how other people in a position to influence them view them. 

I actually do like that approach of looking at counter-passions better; on the other hand we risk demonizing type 8 instead of type 6. So, a virtue of courage sounds far more admirable than a virtue of magnanimous control.


----------



## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kollinhausin said:


> Oh, I don't think that there's any question that retyping from 8 to 6 is a sign of courage; especially fitting as the virtue of type 6 is courage!
> 
> To your other point, not to be rude but it isn't relevant how you view them; it's only relevant how they view themselves and how other people in a position to influence them view them.
> 
> I actually do like that approach of looking at counter-passions better; on the other hand we risk demonizing type 8 instead of type 6. So, a virtue of courage sounds far more admirable than a virtue of magnanimous control.


How much it is related to courage also depends on how much someone is personally attached to type, or is in the grip of (core) fear, so that's very subjective. And indeed not very relevant how I view it. 

Like for instance, for some people it's 'easy' to say 'I love you' and for others it's very difficult. It doesn't necessarily imply secure attachment, because some people say it because they fear (anxious), just like some people don't say it (avoidant) because they fear, not because they don't love the other. 

Much as I can sympathize with the goal you try to achieve, as long as people attach themselves to type as "Identity" they are going to have a hard time with negative information about a type, just like it will be reason to mistype.


----------



## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Entropic said:


> It is so counter-intuitive to the discussion because not only do counterphobic 6s get painted as better (at least they embrace their fears) compared to phobic who are just depicted as scared little bunnies,


You mean scared little bunnies, like this? 



Entropic said:


> Also, I don't think much in terms of whether something is hopeless or not. I do see this doubting activity more in 6s, like it's difficult for them to even get going in this regard. Once they start doubting it's a hopeless endless downward spiral. lol, I think hope even means different things for us, thinking about it. Like, when I think of a 6 being hopeless it's more just like they give up before they even tried. It's an odd mentality to me, but it's not so much that they themselves see it as hopeless but more like how they just burrow their boots into the sand and I want to shake them up.


cp6 do not embrace their fear. It's really amazing how you managed to forget or ignore all the information that passed by. But even your own words. 



Entropic said:


> Furthermore, it will end this nonsense of cp6 vs 8 that keeps cropping up, because once you begin to focus what a 6 actually is by ignoring this all phobic/counterphobic way of delineating the type, one will begin to see how 6 and 8 are so naturally different there is absolutely no reason to ask the question, how is a 6 similar to an 8? because they aren't.


You are preaching willful ignorance. Oh well...


----------



## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

mimesis said:


> You mean scared little bunnies, like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've forgotten where all of this started. It's getting tiring. If anything though, I'm convinced that Enneagram isn't a system I can easily work with. Maybe I'll come back to it later; Figure seemed to suggest I was a 1 or a 3, totally breaking the paradigm, and so maybe I'll look in that direction.

But as for this thread and this argument, it seems pretty inconclusive. It's way too wrapped up in idiosyncratic perceptions, and nobody even knows if they're talking about the same things; there is no common data set to draw on.


----------

