# Let's Type Everyone - Celebrities, Fictional Characters, Each Other..



## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm loving reading up on the in-depthness of the enneagram types practically MistakenforStranger's recent segment of the 4's passion of envy on this thread. Do you have any juice on us 9w8s?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

star tripper said:


> Alright alright alright. First of all, I need to say there *will be self-referencing* in this post. I _hate_ that shit usually because there's an assumption that you're correctly typed. But let me just say I'm a 3-fix goddammit. Gravity is a theory. My image fix is a fact and if you think you might have any slight disagreement... don't waste your time. You will be wrong.
> 
> I'm a motherfucking 3(-fix).
> 
> I also wanna say I won't be breaking 4 down too much because I won't pretend I understand 4 better than 4, so if any 4s wanna jump in with input, please do.


I know what you mean about self-referencing; I usually sense most people are mistyped, and it's annoying if you can't comment on that.

That was part of why I created the thread and wrote the OP the way I did.
Obviously it's pointless to question people's types who don't want to be questioned. So I included the "with permission" rule. But, most people on Gently Honest and elsewhere ARE open to being questioned so long as it's respectful. And I figure that a portion of bashes (especially the ones that get heated) about celeb types are actually related to someone's OWN type. The person getting pissed off about it and being unreasonable and stereotypical, throwing around key words but remaining stubborn as fuck is often arguing about THEIR OWN typing through the guise of a celebrity type. I'll be clear that I'm not referencing the people in this thread or this conversation at all; this one is passionate but respectful. But I wanted to avoid back-and-forths around celebs where the person is really thinking "But... I relate to their core mechanisms, so they HAVE to be type X" and yet feeling like they can't say that out loud because it's a derail, and other people feel they can't address the person's typing (whether correct or not) because it's also a derail. I wanted to invite that kind of conversation so it's not lingering unspoken in the background while everyone gets pissed off , and instead, can simply be covered in an honest, straight forward fashion.

You are obviously a 3 fix. I'd find it bizarre if someone questioned it. The only thing I would question is why you wouldn't be 3 core, though I'm not suggesting it or saying you are. Just mentioning that your 3 fix is strong and clearly visible.

As for understanding 4, I think you're doing a great job. It can actually be easier especially for a highly subjective over-personal type like 4, for others to read an understanding of 4 that comes from outside, and then see how the 4s react to it. You and Roshan (a 6) have articulated things about 4 that I've been trying to say forever, and agree with, but the way you present it somehow makes it more general and readable to the public.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Ocean Helm said:


> Well he sure looks like one, and this is part of what makes me wonder how much he's typed as 4 based on the outside rather than the inside.


I just posted about this on another thread. It's a little out of context but I'll post it here.



Animal said:


> @Nissa Nissa @nep2une
> To be fair, when I wrote those posts I was talking directly to Roshan, who understands mechanisms of type in a similar way that I do, so I could skip right over a bunch of explanations for what I meant by it and why it's relevant to the types. My assessment there on its own wouldn't be adequate for a typing argument, but I've delved deeply into this too many times - on this thread or another on this forum, also on my own forum, ad nauseum. So I just wrote it to her because she speaks my language when it comes to looks and how images present.
> 
> A lot of people here are skeptical about "typing by appearance." There are certain indicators that someone's appearance gives about type that are undeniable. It's not like "long nose means type 5" or something. Head types tend to have more weight in the fast-moving mind so you see some weight on their head in their posture. 4s tend to have a very specific type of sad eyes but a more disembodied relationship with the body. If you put Prince (4w3) next to Sting (3w4) the latter is much more athletic looking and in his body. 4s spend a lot of time looking into an inner hall of mirrors and identifying with what's inside, so there's a psychological reason why their physiology has a different affect, though you have to have the eye to recognize it,because of course a 4 can be an athlete and build muscles (or a 5 like Trent Reznor who is a fucking beast at this point). I am going to get a lot of backlash for even attempting to cover what I'm talking about here, and I know I don't have enough time to hang around here and convince anyone because it's a type of visual psychology I've been attuned to and studying my whole life, which matches up well with enneagram and translates very well to the typings of real people who agree with those types, as well as commonly agreed upon typings of celebs. Body language is a lot more telling than yapping about oneself. Everyone lies to themselves. Body language can be studied with actors or celebs, but there's still something underlying that cannot be shaken. This is impossible to explain to someone who doesn't see it; it's like telling a tone-deaf person how to hit the right note. That's why I only mention it to people who already understand it, and it's the same with mentioning to @Roshan how image works and is expressed (although that's different from body language) - she already speaks this language.





Animal said:


> There are probably endless references debating the percentage, but this gets my point across. To ignore this is voluntary ignorance and stubbornness. (Not accusing anyone here of that, but addressing the general argument that body language and image presentation are irrelevant to type.)
> 
> 
> Body Language Classes, Research, and Consulting | Nonverbal Group | NYC





> *WRITTEN BY BLAKE*
> 
> *HOW MUCH OF COMMUNICATION IS REALLY NONVERBAL?*
> 
> ...



When people argue "body language says nothing about a person" I can't even talk to them about type. It is beyond obscene and absurd to assume that psychology is disconnected from how someone appears. This doesn't mean their facial features, but their expression. It is counter to anything remotely related to psychology, so unless you're talking about cartoons, you have to accept that even if YOU can't read body language, it is a window to someone else's psychology, which is what enneagram is about. My father, a psychiatrist, can tell almost eveything about his patients the minute they walk in. When they reveal their specific stories, nothing surprises him. It's his job to have them pinned right away, and he can tell family dynamics based on how they sit relative to each other in the room, personal struggles based on how they carry themselves etc. This is not magic, it's common sense.

I'll address Manson's specifics at a later time.
However "based on the outside rather than the inside" is an absolutely nonsensical assertion.
You can never be certain what really goes on inside someone else, and if you could, it would match what they are showing on the outside, every time. This is what good psychologists learn to do on the spot. It's also a trick used by supposed "psychics" to blow people's minds.

Motivations and fears don't exist in a vacuum. Every choice (conscious or unconscious) that a person makes comes from their internal psychology. The way they move, the way they speak, the way they dress (this is more conscious), the type of people they hang around. You can't write some arbitrary rule that unless it comes from (the tiny portion that you deem) inside it doesn't count. All of this comes from inside.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@*mistakenforstranger* @*star tripper*
Re: Risk taking.

I happen to have started a thread just yesterday on my own forum, with the title:
"What's the most dangerous thing you have ever done? Why? Tell us about it."

I won't share anyone else's posts, but these were mine.


> My best friend (soul brother) and I did some crazy things. One is, we drove full speed down a steep, windy mountain covered in snow. Another, we remember running from the cops through a swamp, but we still can't remember why. We also took drumsticks up to an industrial park on a mountaintop and played it at 2am until the cops came, complaining we woke the whole town.
> Additional crazy stories: sex on the edge of an extremely steep mountain; tripping on LSD with a friend and getting naked in the woods, painting each other and hijacking a canoe in that condition; waiting around in town for the motorcycles to park so I could persuade strangers to take me for a ride, and .. something I'm very ashamed of: Driving 30 minutes while I was high on 5 different hard drugs at once.
> 
> 
> ...







> I have done almost all the things listed here.
> When I was a kid, I mean as early as elementary school, I would walk out the door into the forest if I didn't like the rules. I also spent the night in the woods by myself more than once. I also used to walk home 5 miles up steep mountains, between my house and my home town, while high or tripping and blasting mix tapes in headphones. I would wear short shorts too.
> I also moved into a bad neighborhood in Brooklyn - I did have roommates but was virtually by myself (the only one I knew soon moved out). I am 5'4 , with a chronic illness, no fighting skills aside from how fucking crazy I am, and I speak in a whisper and have intermittent arthritis. I was the one walking my other roommates (including sometimes the men) to the subway stops. I got attacked once , thrown down to the sidewalk, but I threw my phone, caught myself on my hands, sprung back up ready to fight.. and this 6'2 guy was so afraid of the look in my eye that he walked off without even picking up my phone on the way. I also moved to Boston by myself when I was even more sick at age 22-23 for college, and for fun I would take my headphones and video camera for long, endless subway rides that lasted as late as the subways would run.
> 
> I never went into cold water for more than 10 seconds though. That's outside my capacity







> I also backpacked around California to three different areas by myself, visiting 6 different friends along the way, but virtually hanging out alone. One of my friends took me driving on the hills so that the car was completely sideways and even partially upside down. I forgot what this sport is called. But I'm not sure if that or backpacking by myself (with a chronic illness) would be considered more dangerous. As [poster] said, love is most dangerous. I don't really FEEL the threat of danger unless love is involved. So I could probably list things like this all day, but danger isn't an object for me.
> 
> One thing I DON'T do is cold temperatures, eating/drinking contests.. I don't subject my body to weird conditions (aside from mind-altering substances, but that's different!!)







> Since a few people brought up sex.
> I've gotten it on in a tree, made love on the edge of a mountain, made love in a lake, fucked on a rooftop overlooking everyone right in the center of town (having climbed up to some apartment roof illegally)
> I've taken a man's virginity in a threesome.
> I've been part of a threesome where a woman's virginity was taken.
> ...







> I don't see the point in surviving if I don't live.
> 
> The thing is, a lot of the danger I listed didn't even seem dangerous to me. I don't seek out cheap thrills for the sake of it, but I follow my heart (whether it be drawn to men or art projects) to the end of the Earth. My sense of purpose comes before anything and it leads me. I live in its service.
> 
> I was diligent about taking my medications, always did my school work on time and well, always treated my jobs seriously. I've always been a straight-A, high achieving type and never a fuckup with my health. Even when it came to drugs I mostly indulged the ones that affected my (very strong) mind but not my (compromised) body as much. This was why it was hard for me to land on Sp last or second. But, while I did have good *discipline* and clearly value Te , plus was raised by an ENTJ who made a hell of a lot of sense to me, I don't really tend to umm.. SEE danger. (Unless romantic obsession is involved.) Yeah I'll do my diligent shit but I'll also go and follow my passions at any cost.




There was only one person on the thread whose posts blew mine out of the water in terms of "HOLY SHIT.." was a 3. @*Stable Genius*

What we have in common is we're both Sp last and secondary 8 fixers.
But some of the people who were "close behind" in terms of risk factor had higher Sp or no 8 fixes.

I'm not sure what it's related to.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Animal said:


> I'm not sure what it's related to.


One guess is Se valuing, although that is not _perfectly_ consistent with the results either. Enneagram, I didn't see much trend at all. Granted it's a small sample set.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

(This was actually a response on the Lana del Rey thread but I was rambling so much and talking about other people I decided to move it here lol)
@Animal all right)

I don't really like the VI thing, it's so tempting but when you do those things (especially for Socionics) it just confuses me a lot, when it comes to actual facial features I'm very suspicious because _genetics_ has so much to do with that, even facial expressions are often culturally coded, there are expressions Eastern Europeans make that Australians don't, and vice versa...I even suspect what language you speak has an influence on how your face looks as the muscles change a bit...(I know when I've spent time in Russia, speaking Russian every day, and talking to Russians, probably mirroring their faces...then back in Europe or the US, people will come up to me on the street and start speaking to me in Russian, but they don't when I haven't been...doesn't disprove typology of the face and supports the idea that you can tell about people from their appearance (which I agree with) but it's an example of the kind of factor that can affect it, and it seems really hard to boil things down)

That said...for example, Lana...she doesn't _look_ like a 4 to me, she looks like a 2 or even a 9, her face is so...relaxed and pleasant, it's not that she doesn't look sad, I think she conveys pain and sadness very well, but she tends to look...either having a sort of 'streaming with light' look, or seductive, or drinking things in with her eyes, she looks really innocent and scoopy (I keep using this word for her and it just seems so accurate lol), sort-of soft and like her border isn't very clear (if that makes any sense, it's not quite how it sounds), I just can't see it as 4ish (in a way it looks too 'genuine' to be 4, not that 2 is any more genuine, not sure how to explain again)


























And...so I agree that there are things that are aligned I guess, there are people that walk into a room and I'm like 'ooh a 6', you can feel the nervous, head-ish energy, some writer talked about 3s having a certain plasticity of face and I think that's obvious in a lot of cases...

but I think there's a lot of ways it could be really misleading, imo you take it too far, I don't know that much (and faces confuse me, ahaha, I can never tell characters apart in movies or TV shows until I'm really used to them)

(Off-topic but there was some discussion of Lady Gaga on that other thread and there have been arguments for 2 for her, just keep thinking that I can't _see_ it, her face and mannerism just don't seem 2ish to me, can't think of a decent reason for her to be any type really or not any type but she doesn't look like she shows 2ish need or pride or such, she seems more closed-off and...staged is an obvious word but I'm not sure how to express what I mean, her face doesn't look very 'free' lol, I guess I'd say 3 but...I might just not 'get' her)


















So I know you weren't really talking about what I'm talking about, but those were my thoughts

____________________

Anyways, place where I'd be most convinced of Lana del Rey being a 4 would be in her cover of Leonard Cohen (who everyone agrees is a 4, right?) 






To me she genuinely expresses brokenness well (but she _doesn't_ do it in her own songs) I could be convinced from that point of view, but I think it's more that she has an active line to 4 and shares a certain kind of artisticness and understanding (that transcends type) Cohen

Whose songs are all about brokenness, @mistakenforstranger was talking about gutters, somehow avoided quoting Oscar Wilde through the thing, but Leonard Cohen's songs _all_ have some sort of 'gutter', not just heartbreak but a broken world, his most uplifting spiritual songs are about making sense of suffering and a broken world:

'ring the bells that still can ring, forget your perfect offering - there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in' 
'from this broken hill, I will sing to You - from this broken hill, all Your praises they shall ring'
'a thousand candles burning for a love that never came - You want it darker, we kill the flame'

(of course, Lana isn't really writing songs on that level, I mean it's a different ballgame...but in general, her songs are...anguished at times, for a lack of love, pain and suffering, feeling broken and inferior, but it's not the same, it's not coming from the same place)
4:


> I asked my father
> I said, "Father change my name"
> The one I'm using now it's covered up
> With fear and filth and cowardice and shame
> ...





> Blue hydrangea, cold cash divine
> Cashmere, cologne and white sunshine
> Red racing cars, sunset and vine
> The kids were young and pretty
> ...


(obviously there are other differences lol but Cohen starts with fear, filth, cowardice and shame and Lana starts with flowers, money, perfume, and children), there are other indicative things that it would be boring to point out

2ish song from Cohen:

_If you want a lover
I'll do anything you ask me to
And if you want another kind of love
I'll wear a mask for you
If you want a partner, take my hand, or
If you want to strike me down in anger
Here I stand
I'm your man
If you want a boxer
I will step into the ring for you
And if you want a doctor
I'll examine every inch of you
If you want a driver, climb inside
Or if you want to take me for a ride
You know you can
I'm your man
Ah, the moon's too bright
The chain's too tight
The beast won't go to sleep
I've been running through these promises to you
That I made and I could not keep
Ah, but a man never got a woman back
Not by begging on his knees
Or I'd crawl to you baby and I'd fall at your feet
And I'd howl at your beauty like a dog in heat
And I'd claw at your heart, and I'd tear at your sheet
I'd say please (please)
I'm your man
And if you've got to sleep a moment on the road
I will steer for you
And if you want to work the street alone
I'll disappear for you
If you want a father for your child
Or only want to walk with me a while across the sand
I'm your man
If you want a lover
I'll do anything you ask me to
And if you want another kind of love
I'll wear a mask for you_

still seems obviously 4 core though to me

(I wonder about his instincts? seems vaguely sp-first and sx-last seems wrong so sp/sx or...?)

anyways forgot what I was talking about, I'll leave it there, lots to complain about I'm sure


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@*Nissa Nissa*
The VI used in Socionics or, more deeply, cognitivetype.com is super interesting. I personally don't apply it unless *I* understand the psychology around it. For instance, it makes sense that a Pe type would have pop out eyes that look around a lot to take in the environment... as it matches their psychology. However, some of the shit about eyebrows and mouth placement is arbitrary to how the type thinks. I do understand Fe vs Fi smiles in the *times when* someone smiles, as in Fe types smile to include you in the emotional atmosphere or to join it, and Fi types do it to express some personal emotion which may be out of synch with the atmosphere. But I really don't care less about which smile is more straight. I used to because I thought it was related, but over time I've seen too many clear exceptions where the person's *body language* is expressing Fi but their smile is overly straight the way Fe smiles are described. So I look at it skeptically, making sure to apply it to reality (as in real people) and also match it up with the *genuine psychology of the type* - in other words, HOW it is used and WHY - before I apply it myself.

This is not to say that eyebrows and straight smiles and other indicators *don't work* --- maybe they do. But until I personally understand the mechanics behind it and the reason it has to point to type X, I don't personally apply it to a conversation, though I might sometimes point out that CogType or some other renowned site had typed this person as Type X, *fwiw* - which doesn't mean I have taken the time to look into it or I necessarily agree.

I've studied enneagram a lot longer and my well of psychology and body language matches has built up from real experience with human psychology and body language, mixed with learning how to apply this realistically to enneagram. It *makes sense* that certain types present in certain ways and not others, based on the psychology of that type and how that affects your presentation in a given moment and also over time.

It is only worthwhile if it matches up to the actual psychology of a type or a person. _Someone's body language *always* matches their own personal psychology_. So the idea is , over time, learning to understand what that body language is indicating and how to apply that to types in general.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@*Nissa Nissa*
I agree with all your observations on Lana and how she presents. What you say about personal borders not being clear is key. This isn't 4. 9 crowns the enneagram because 9s have a loose sense of self, blending into the environment yet holding back their vital energy; 4 and 5, on the bottom of the enneagram, cling too tightly to self (identity and mind respectfully), experiencing themselves as "most separate," even if they are outgoing or cognitive extroverts.

Lana is - to me - an INFP. I've heard ISFP arguments. Whatever. She's an obvious Fi dom, to me. She expresses her personal sentiments. She's also socially awkward due to being a Fi dom. But still, her personal borders are open. As Roshan says, she hugs her fans in this friendly, inclusive way, to make them feel better etc. This is not 4 behavior, though pinpointing exactly why is a whole discussion which Roshan handles very well. She welcomes you into a world where she lifts you up.

Also sharing your suffering in such a way isn't always 4. All types suffer. Sting (a self-typed Sp 3) suffers in his music, and is creative. Pink, Peter Steele; 8s, and Lzzy Hale & Robert Plant, 7s... write music about suffering. Suffering is human and ubiquitous. How someone handles identity and the inner hall of mirrors, which is apparent in body language, as the 4 has created a separate 'personal space' ..... this is more 4 territory.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Animal said:


> It is only worthwhile if it matches up to the actual psychology of a type or a person. _Someone's body language *always* matches their own personal psychology_. So the idea is , over time, learning to understand what that body language is indicating and how to apply that to types in general.


For the rest of the post: that's fair, seems more reasonable 
And I know you're well-versed in that

But I don't agree with the part I quoted, really...people act and hide and dissemble and wear masks. I agree someone very skilled at body language can tell a lot about a person - and a person average at it can tell a good deal - but I also think someone very skilled at acting, disguising their emotions and motivations, and concealing their true self can do so extremely effectively as well. And obviously , not just con artists or professional actors - everyone does that on some level, and I think a good number of people are genuinely hard to read.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

On mannerisms and typing by visual cues... it's especially noticeable when actors need to perform a role whose type is not their own. A good actor will be commended on their ability to "transform" into that character - as in, they embody said character's mannerisms and attitude very well, not only in words, but also (and perhaps more importantly) in the physical realm.

This isn't about having certain features or not. David Fauvre for example has a thing about 8's having big jaws or whatever.. that's not what I'm talking about.











If you mute the sound, you can pay extra attention to the difference in body language. Same person acting two characters.


The nature of the Enneagram is that of the role we all take on in order to dance along the rhythm of life. This is a poetic way of saying that type, by definition, only comes in so many forms. It is a role that the ego takes on, a role with its defensive mechanisms, its fears, its reflexes, and the whole shebang. It's an entire worldview, embedded deep in our subconscious. And if you think in a certain way, using a set pattern (type), long enough, you will mold your presentation to it. _You are what you eat_. Law of Attraction (LoA).

The physical manifestation of type is an inevitability. Learning to read this is like learning any other language; it takes practice.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Nissa Nissa said:


> For the rest of the post: that's fair, seems more reasonable
> And I know you're well-versed in that
> 
> But I don't agree with the part I quoted, really...people act and hide and dissemble and wear masks. I agree someone very skilled at body language can tell a lot about a person - and a person average at it can tell a good deal - but I also think someone very skilled at acting, disguising their emotions and motivations, and concealing their true self can do so extremely effectively as well. And obviously , not just con artists or professional actors - everyone does that on some level, and I think a good number of people are genuinely hard to read.


The things I read can't be concealed. I would agree that to the average eye, it can be hard to read. Not trying to talk myself up but I'm just not tuning into that stuff that can be concealed. It might be related to my cognition because others who share similar cognition notice similar things. Aside from my father, I know someone else who, as a profession, can read all that stuff about people right away. He works worldwide as a life coach. It's one of those things where I commend you for being skeptical if you don't have the eye for it. You have a great eye for a lot of things, so it's best to stick to those, unless you develop an understanding of this one way or other. For those of us who see past that stuff, the onus is on us to explain, using specific examples, what we are seeing in the body language and why it matters. I've done this when examining specific types closely, and it can be persuasive if I do it well, since it's clear to the audience (including those like you who don't do body language) what I am seeing once I spell it out. It's not invisible it's just that most people don't think to look for it and connect it to a meaning. But it takes a long time to analyze each person, so you'd have to decide on a case by case basis if you found that specific interpretation of someone's body language cues persuasive.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

@Animal what kinds of things are you talking about then?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Animal* what kinds of things are you talking about then?


This is a great example.. 



Nissa Nissa said:


> That said...for example, Lana...she doesn't _look_ like a 4 to me, she looks like a 2 or even a 9, her face is so...relaxed and pleasant, it's not that she doesn't look sad, I think she conveys pain and sadness very well, but she tends to look...either having a sort of 'streaming with light' look, or seductive, or drinking things in with her eyes, she looks really innocent and scoopy (I keep using this word for her and it just seems so accurate lol), sort-of soft and like her border isn't very clear (if that makes any sense, it's not quite how it sounds), I just can't see it as 4ish (in a way it looks too 'genuine' to be 4, not that 2 is any more genuine, not sure how to explain again)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

@Animal aha well then)
I think I get more what you mean, might have been misinterpreting you before to some extent or...well, I don't know, probably still have my reservations but I'm too tired to have clear grasp on this conversation anymore))


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

mistakenforstranger said:


> So, I do agree with this, in that a 4 won't look up to _just_ _anyone_, as there has to be a *personal connection* to the so-called "hero". It was more that I responding to @*star tripper* idea that a 4 is *too self-centered* to have their image influenced by another person, otherwise what's the point of envy, which is brought on by a means of comparison to _another_, you know? But often the 4 will see how they are also _not like_ the person they admire/envy, which also brings on a whole lot of shame in the process. It is a comparison of self as being _less than_ the "idol", much like how you viewed yourself with Trent, which is something I can relate to, but perhaps wouldn't express in the same way. The same feeling is there, though: "You're so big and bad / i'm nothing". In order to compensate for this, introjection occurs where the 4 will take on those characteristics to be more like him/her for a sense of self-worth, and can even lose themselves in the process, or on the other hand, they can lament not being everything they dreamed of becoming. Even if I'm not him/her, I'll try to be him/her as compensation. I'm not saying you did this with Trent, but I think 4s will do this in some fashion. Naranjo speaks to this too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now my dude, as I said, I know you understand 4 envy, but Slash was literally using the dictionary definition of envy, something humans in general experience, something _I_ experience. Envy and jealousy were some of my strongest emotions growing up. It's what you do with them to the extreme that makes the image type emerge imo. Now all that said, now that I'm sobered up, I think you threw that out there to tie shit together the way I threw "Slash's bff said he lies to make himself look cool" out there so oop. Ignore me.



Animal said:


> I know what you mean about self-referencing; I usually sense most people are mistyped, and it's annoying if you can't comment on that.
> 
> That was part of why I created the thread and wrote the OP the way I did.
> Obviously it's pointless to question people's types who don't want to be questioned. So I included the "with permission" rule. But, most people on Gently Honest and elsewhere ARE open to being questioned so long as it's respectful. And I figure that a portion of bashes (especially the ones that get heated) about celeb types are actually related to someone's OWN type. The person getting pissed off about it and being unreasonable and stereotypical, throwing around key words but remaining stubborn as fuck is often arguing about THEIR OWN typing through the guise of a celebrity type. I'll be clear that I'm not referencing the people in this thread or this conversation at all; this one is passionate but respectful. But I wanted to avoid back-and-forths around celebs where the person is really thinking "But... I relate to their core mechanisms, so they HAVE to be type X" and yet feeling like they can't say that out loud because it's a derail, and other people feel they can't address the person's typing (whether correct or not) because it's also a derail. I wanted to invite that kind of conversation so it's not lingering unspoken in the background while everyone gets pissed off , and instead, can simply be covered in an honest, straight forward fashion.
> ...


Believe it or not, elsewhere on other forums and from my family and friends, people have pitched a 4 fix to me. Even on my recent Type Me thread, 4 was thrown out there until I clarified why I just _look_ like a 4. If I don't 'fess up to my 3 tendencies, I think it's very easy for my throbbing 3ness to go unnoticed. I think if I was a celebrity, people on this forum would assign a 4 fix to me. I'm just not ostentatious with it irl at all. My best friend calls me a Type *B* personality for Chrissakes.

It's frustrating whenever I read 3 descriptions and characterizations because they could not be further from the truth for me. Sexual 3s are... preps? Cheerleaders? I'd literally kill myself if someone called me a prep. I hated receiving awards in school. I graduated from three schools (high school, two colleges) and I've never _once_ walked for a ceremony. I would tell people, "Literally any functioning human being can get a degree. There's nothing impressive about it." In elementary school, I used to be labeled "snobby." I'm very much characterized by "not being like everyone else." My exes and SO all have told me my number 1 draw is my independence.

As a result, I've been trying to be audacious with my fix on this forum even though I would literally never admit to this shit irl (for example, I've never told a soul about my "thinnest in the room" thing; everyone thinks I'm naturally skinny and like... there is no such thing as naturally skinny, only natural thin build). I'm not gonna let the 3s that look like me get away with being labeled another type. Y'all _give a fuck_ and I'm exposing your asses. But also, I think 3s really get sold short in their descriptions and it needs to be known that not all 3s would be into awards and accolades.

But I know I'm not a 3 core now. I thought I was before because for some reason I find 3 the easiest type to conceptualize. Easier than 5 and much easier than 8. I have a finger on the pulse of 3. I guess it's because I noticed their cognition before I ever learned enneagram so the literature just put words to shit I already knew. But anyway, the reason I don't have 3 as my core is the same reason I don't type at social-dom. I wanna say 3 feels optional, but that's not 100% accurate. It's more like...






I'm the captain of the ship in this song. I have plans drawn up. I'm at the helm of this vessel. 3w4 and so are my compass. They're a reference point to keep me on course. But they're not the _course_. I think that's also why I'm so liberal about poking at 3s. Real 3s would likely never reveal all this lol.

Now I _am_ open to people trying to type me at all times. The only thing I'm not open to is debate on my image fix because I think it's a waste of time. Yes, I feel like an alien. Yes, I'm artsy as fuck. Yes, I'm independent. Yes, I'm frank. Yes, I'm unique. Yes, I'm intense. But none of that disqualifies me as 3 nor qualifies me as 4. I'm a 3 because there's a transaction* between my personal qualities and the world that results in my image. I appropriate my real self.

Thanks, re:4. I know I have to tread carefully with acting like I have any level of understanding of their identity comparable to their own understanding for obvious reasons but I'd like to think I know them decently.

*Edit: I just realized this is how I view attachment types in general. There's interplay between worlds, a relationship characterized by straddling. I'm not sure it's entirely accurate, but I think that's the formula I use when I evaluate others superficially.


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

@Nissa Nissa I'd actually love to read why you were thinking ESFP for Axl. It's not a bad guess and it's essentially the only type I'd entertain for him other than ISFP.

He IS Fi + Se. He lives and breathes it. He exudes it.

I always put his Fi before his Se because it can easily be argued that his Fi controls him at the expense of Se. His Fi has so much power. Now that said, if we look at his life as a narrative, inferior Ni and inferior Te both make sense. I lean toward tertiary Ni though because I think it came out more than Te did even in his prime.

You mentioned Paradise City. Let me share with you some facts on the recording of that song because I have no sense of self-control. _Appetite for Destruction_ was very easy for the band members to record, doing pretty minimal takes. The exception is Axl Rose. He recorded this album one. line. at. a. time. "Just an urchin living under the street, I'm a" -- stops -- "let me hear that take back. I don't like the rasp on 'just;' let's do another take." Axl took up so fucking much studio time, more than all the others combined. Axl has an insane sense of perfectionism in him. Now that said, you know the end of the chorus that precedes the coda in Paradise City where Axl sings, "HOOOOOOOME... HOOOOOOOOME," and then the band digs into that brilliant, energetic coda? That was actually a tape glitch. Axl only sang HOME once and there was a mistake in the tape. They dug it so much though that they kept it. So the messiness of the band actually went against a lot of Axl's own tendencies.

His perfectionism is one of the biggest reasons _Chinese Democracy_ took so long to come out. He kept insisting he wanted the drumming in the title track to sound like Smells Like Teen Spirit, and Geffen/Interscope essentially had to re-hire Tom Zutaut just to understand wtf Axl was talking about. The album probably would've come out much faster had Axl not mistaken something Tom did as a betrayal and fired him lol. Another good example of his fucked up perfectionism is Jimmy Iovine was tasked with gently pushing Axl to speed up the album making process. He showed up at Axl's house with a cassette of producers and said, "I don't wanna rush you or anything, but I have samples from various producers. The label was wondering if you could pick one out." Axl accepted the tape, walked to his driveway, placed the tape on the ground, got into his car, and backed up over the tape... multiple times.

That shenanigans reminds me so much of Bruce Springsteen, who also low-key has intense perfectionist qualities. Jungleland has a famous sax solo performed by the late great Clarence Clemons. We all praise him to the high heavens for it. It's fucking brilliant. What the public doesn't know is Bruce POLICED the fuck out of his solo note for note. To me, this sort of over-the-top studio behavior is very low order Ni-Te with an emphasis on Ni. I might be wrong, but that's the other reason (besides Axl's Fi explosion) I default to ISFP.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@star tripper do you type Springsteen as ISFP too? I feel like he has to be SFJ (and you can explain similar things using Si in his case). Also likely a 6, but with 1 fairly high up there. He's got a ton of so instinct too, compared to Axl's sx.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

star tripper said:


> I'm a 3 because there's a transaction* between my personal qualities and the world that results in my image. I appropriate my real self.
> 
> *Edit: I just realized this is how I view attachment types in general. There's interplay between worlds, a relationship characterized by straddling. I'm not sure it's entirely accurate, but I think that's the formula I use when I evaluate others superficially.


Not sure what this means.

(There are other stuff I wanted to talk about but I got into Fire Emblem recently so that has sucked up pretty much ALL my time and attention. Haven't left the house in several days, and today I'm determined to do that)

--
Well one thing I'll say (since it's an "old" thing I didn't get around to before) is I remember seeing Les Mis typed as SoSx, and... the idea of it being Sp-last is strange to me (granted I've only seen the musical not read the book, but somehow I doubt the book being more SoSx-ish than a musical), because it actually feels very Sp to me more so than Sx. 




(The focus here certainly is)


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Remnants said:


> Not sure what this means.


Yeah I knew I was getting into esoteric territory there. While all types interact with the inner and outer world to an extent, I find attachment types interact with both on a pretty equal level. They need both external and internal input. 4s need external input but not nearly as much as internal, for example. Regardless of my image type, I'm independent. My 3-fix wants people to identify me as Independent. I'm not faking independence, but I'm cleaning up my presentation to show the world that that's what I am.

Not sure if that clarifies much. I've never put words to this conceptualization before.



Ocean Helm said:


> @*star tripper* do you type Springsteen as ISFP too? I feel like he has to be SFJ (and you can explain similar things using Si in his case). Also likely a 6, but with 1 fairly high up there. He's got a ton of so instinct too, compared to Axl's sx.


I type Springsteen at ISFP 6w5 sx/so. I'm with you on a lot of this post. 1) I used to be SO SURE he was Si-dom. 2) His so instinct is a behemoth (Idk if I'd call it comparable to Axl's sx, but it's up there). I couldn't understand why he was referred to as Fi and sx until I read his book. In one of my responses to @mistakenforstranger, I posted an excerpt from him that explains sx 6. The sx/so dynamic can be very interesting when so is so strong. Springsteen writes about so a lot because it's easy for him (no neurosis). Again, I'll reference myself. A lot of my posts are written in an so-structure. I have a threads theorizing about Gens Y and Z and s their cultures. I like to post about social issues and I'm a bit of a SJW in my own right. That's the easy stuff, the stuff you can make conversation about or choose not to if you get bored. If sx/so can also be comfortable talking nonstop about social stuff, what distinguishes it from so/sx, you might wonder. What really sold me is that so-doms tend to want to coalesce into their group (or against a group). They become one of them. Bruce doesn't exactly do that. He makes himself a symbol, a paragon, the head of the revolution. It's easy to see what I'm saying when you put him up against Bob Dylan. Bob is so similar. He takes the social side of things into himself and vomits onto his guitar (that's why singing voice is so dry  ). In an orgy, so/sx is gonna be down with the filth, and sx/so is gonna represent the filth. Bruce's issues throughout his life revolved around sexuality, getting close, destroying boundaries, finding himself in another human.

He has a very Si persona, but he's kind of an Fi/Se little shit. He grew up Catholic but had an antagonistic relationship with the Catholic Church for as long as he could remember. He felt Catholic values violated his own sense of ethics and didn't appreciate their forcing values onto him. He also couldn't sit still in church and felt like the church was violating his own sense of freedom.

Even his songs advise the exact opposite of typical Si. His song themes are about breaking _out_ and the tragedy of staying in a place of comfort. It's like... an Fi-Se perspective of Si life. And actually Ni. I'm not sure how familiar you are with his music. If you're super familiar, I'm down to spam music to support what I'm saying. I actually do have the book on me, too, so this hopefully won't be a Slash situation.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Remnants
Les Mis seems So/Sp to me.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

for the record based on the pictures I would have typed Cohen as a 5 (or 1?) he looks more piercing and detached, and Cobain probably...a sad 8 or something lol, but yeah a 4 of the two options (but I don't know the first thing about him)

all these people being discussed here kinda annoy me though, so :/

anyways, this song feels sx-ish, like sx 2 or 9?






_I'd love to kill you with a kiss
I'd like to strike you down with bliss
I'd like to tie you up in knots
Until your heart stops
I'd love to kill you with a glance
I'd like to put you in trance
I'd like to drug you with my scent
And use you in the moment
Ooh
I'd love to kill you as you eat
The pleasure would taste so sweet
I'd like to open up your skin
And wander there within
I'd love to kill you by a stream
Where no one can hear my baby scream
And then I'd run away and be free
The sweetest victory
Ooh
I love to watch you in your sleep
'Cause you don't have power over me
And when you're awake I'm undone
Under you spell, in hell
Ooh_

Haven't really listened to other songs of this singer, something about her is hard to get into, maybe 9ish or something?






_Broken people get recycled 
And I hope that I will. 
Sometimes we're thrown off our pathways 
What I thought was my way home 
Wasn't the place I know 
I'm certain nothing's certain 
What we own becomes our prison 
My possessions will be gone 
Back to where they came from
Blame, no one is to blame 
As natural as the rain that falls 
Here comes the Flood again
See the rock that you hold onto 
Is it gonna save you 
When the earth begins to crumble? 
Why do you feel you have to hold on? 
Imagine if you let go
Blame, no one is to blame 
As natural as the rain that falls 
Here comes the Flood again
Wash away the weight that pulls you down 
Ride the waves that free you from the dusk?
Don't trust your eyes 
It's easy to believe them 
Know in your heart 
That you can leave your prison
Don't trust your mind 
It's not always listening 
Turn on the lights 
And feel the ancient rhythm
Don't trust your eyes 
It's easy to believe them 
Know in your heart 
That you can leave your prison
Blame, no one is to blame 
As natural as the rain that falls 
Here comes the Flood again_

(none of those words mean anything to me, it's like Tori Amos lol)


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Animal said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> Kurt's eyes don't look sad in the same way. They look more like the 5 you posted than they look like Cohen. His eyes look penetrating like he's looking in for insights. I can't get too deep into this though; I need a forum break. Too busy.


You've just proved why I don't buy visual typing as a legitimate form of typing, because I find this a complete contradiction of your own position of what constitutes a 4 face. It's not that there isn't any truth to it, but it eventually comes down to us arguing about what we "see" in faces, which I find SO _unsatisfying_, and then using it to fit the type we've chosen. I see a TON of sadness and pain in Kurt's eyes, he has the same face/expression that abused animals have, to the point where it makes me sad looking at him, but his face is not any reason why I type him as a 4 either, nor do I think a 4 needs to necessarily have a sad face to be a 4 (Tori Amos). He also looks nothing like Cronenberg. There is no sadness in his face, I agree, but again, I don't need to look at his face to know he's a 5. I just have to watch his movies, or read his quotes. To me, Cohen also just looks like a stoic, weathered old man, not that I don't think there isn't any sadness behind him, as I'm sure there is, but yeah, it's pointless to continue this discussion about it.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

David Mitchell: 6w5 sp/so? ESFJ I'd say










(curious about Lee Mack (other guy on the panel), can't get near a typing for him though, seems vaguely 7ish? and probably sx-first, def not sx-last, but yeah idk)

Dima Bilan: 6w7 sx/so ENFJ or ESTP (I also wonder if he could be a 2)
(constantly bringing him up I know but I want to knooow)











_I'm a nightly hooligan
I have a revolver
I look like (my?) mother
And I'm always drunk

Well, so what, so what
I'm strong and clever as well
Tanned as well
And I go around in a jacket

I'll fly to you
I'll pay for everything
I'll make you golden
I want you

I'm not the worst in the world
Just that I'm not a saint
And only when I'm with you
Do I find peace

When I look into your eyes, I understand
The world without you is completely impossible, I know well

I'm a night hooligan
I have talent
I'm a cool musician
And I'm always drunk

You fell into a cell
And the keys are with the mother
I only have a revolver 
And a great plan

You and I will fly away to wherever we want
We'll plant trees and have children
We will always be together, days, week, years
And we won't ever die, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes

When I look into your eyes, I understand
The world without you is completely impossible, I know well

I'm a night hooligan
In business I'm a khan
But in the bed a giant
Simply a hurricane 

You won't run away from me
You hold me very dear
Very often you call
And don't sleep at night
_






_I know exactly, that the impossible is possible
To lose your mind, fall in love by accident
To find you, not let go, not by day or by night
The impossible is possible - I know it very well

But where to find you, I beg you to answer me
Which cities should I fly to after you?
I'm ready to go to the ends of the earth, I have to explain everything
How I can't live without you

(Chorus)

I'm ready to share half of everything with you
You just believe me, I made this choice myself
Just give me this last chance, I have to explain everything
Understand, without you I cannot live!_

(Don't think he writes his own songs, more interested in vibe)


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> You've just proved why I don't buy visual typing as a legitimate form of typing, because I find this a complete contradiction of your own position of what constitutes a 4 face. It's not that there isn't any truth to it, but it eventually comes down to us arguing about what we "see" in faces, which I find SO _unsatisfying_, and then using it to fit the type we've chosen. I see a TON of sadness and pain in Kurt's eyes, he has the same face/expression that abused animals have, to the point where it makes me sad looking at him, but his face is not any reason why I type him as a 4 either, nor do I think a 4 needs to necessarily have a sad face to be a 4 (Tori Amos). He also looks nothing like Cronenberg. There is no sadness in his face, I agree, but again, I don't need to look at his face to know he's a 5. I just have to watch his movies, or read his quotes. To me, Cohen also just looks like a stoic, weathered old man, not that I don't think there isn't any sadness behind him, as I'm sure there is, but yeah, it's pointless to continue this discussion about it.


It absolutely does not contradict my position of what constitutes a 4 face. *I don't see Kurt Cobain as having a 4 face, according to my highly consistent standards, which are difficult to explain in words and which I have yet to lay out in full, *due to time constraints. You can reject my standards and ideas about what constitutes a 4 face, but I don't personally see the same thing in his face that you see, so you can't say that I'm contradicting myself. I'm contradicting YOU, not myself.

*Saying you don't see what I see is fair; saying I'm contradicting myself is strawmanning*. Most people don't know what strawmanning actually means though they like to throw the term around. *It means attacking a cartoon version of my position (or, your own explanation of my position) rather than what I actually said.*

I have not laid out any specific standards which have been contradicted by a subsequent post of mine. _You personally_ see a similarity in Cohen and Kobain that I personally _don't_ see. *I am neither contradicting myself, nor my own standards.*

**

*To make my position clear:
It takes a lot of time to explain visual cues to people who are not attuned nor open to the idea of visual cue and their meaning. It requires more time and focus than I can afford at this time. My method is CONSISTENT, though I cannot promise that, if I did explain it, anyone else will agree with it or think it is valid: that is up to you. 

However it is highly consistent, highly specific, and has reasons behind it. There is a very strong, explainable method to what may appear to you as my "madness." It may require writing an actual novel to explain it in words to those who don't automatically get it. I am up for the task, and actually considering publishing a manifesto on body language, but cannot undertake it at this juncture.*


********
That said, we won't see it the same way. I could explain at greater length at a later time; I might start an OP when I have the time. For now I have to focus IRL. This isn't a slight to you. I have enjoyed our recent round of back and forth and I'm not trying to be abrupt, dismissive or rude. I just have to set limits with myself so I don't get too caught up. I have a long list of immediate health & financial concerns to get in order.  I'll come back sometime! I appreciate the challenge as always.


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## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

For what it's worth... of the grungers, Layne Staley has long struck me as the real 4 (or at any rate, I personally see him as a 4, without a doubt in my mind). 4w3 sp/sx. He had this vulnerability to him that I very rarely see in anyone... this song, this is one of my very favorite Alice in Chains songs and it feels 4-ish to me in the sense that there is no rationale, no apology, no projection whatsoever for the pain he is expressing; it is simply a pure unadulterated expression of pain. I can almost imagine Morrissey singing it...






Also for what I mentioned before about how Kurt never really struck me as a true romantic, Layne did. If you listen to the song Lifeless Dead by Mad Season, it sounds pretty stereotypically grungy, but just running through the lyrics without music in my mind, they feel like something a romantic poet might write... "How he wished that they would wed/I promise all our love, she said/Promises were never kept/Alone on dirty floor he slept." 

I also find Down in a Hole intriguing when listened to with the Dirt album cover in mind... It all feels very sp/sx 4 to me. There is this real flirtation with death in that the woman on the cover is literally a part of the earth, as though she's been swallowed whole by it... and how he uses this "womb is the tomb" metaphor so liberally throughout the song. And then there's his heroin addiction... He very probably had the worst case of drug addiction in human history. That feels sp/sx 4 to me as well, the way he allowed this self destruction to become his identity. But at the same time, I remember reading an interview with him ages ago and when asked about it he said something like, "My addiction is not my title. My strengths and my talents are my title." So it's like he was really seriously stuck in that 4-ish way between the "I am a freak and I might as well die" mindset and the "I am special" one, you know? Also just watching him perform, in the clips I have seen... He was a real performer. It feels image-y to me, watching him sing on a stage... He really could sing and perform live and he clearly took it seriously, he had this amazing presence...yet he was so, so unhappy. His life was incredibly tragic. There was this one interview he did where the interviewer asked him, "Are you happy?" and he said with this determination and strength, "Yes, damnit, I am..." and then in the very next breath, he said, "I think I'm gonna cry" and it was very clear he was. I do not see that kind of vulnerability just every day.

I also see "Holy Origin" in him very clearly... that's a more complicated thing to me, though... I have this feeling that core 4's who have 6 for a second fix (I would include James Dean in this category) embody Holy Origin especially, unusually clearly. What I mean is in those 4's, the clear authority/father issues show themselves in that sort of way like, "Who am I really? Who am I independently of how I was raised to be? Where is the missing piece to teach me this?" I don't know, that's the feeling I get... I'm just saying I know a lot of gen x'ers grew up in broken homes but with Layne it was amazing how profoundly his father's absence influenced him. He knew that his father was a drug addict in Texas and, not only does he have many (often disturbing) lyrics about his drug addiction, traveling south, and the connection between those things and his father but he also had a truly horrific addiction and as he got older, he even developed a southern accent. He just seemed so obsessed with embodying his true self, to the point that he didn't seem to care at all about how self destructive it was. I think he was probably 4-6-9 in that order.


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## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

Was contemplating this further and I felt like adding on a bit... (I have a fear of arguing because I know I'll wimp out eventually but...don't mean to argue, I'm just thinking out loud here...) The thing about Kurt not coming across as a competency type @mistakenforstranger you're right. He doesn't come across stereotypically 5-ish in that way. But I was thinking, this could be another case of tritype coming in handy because I do believe he was double reactive... I think @Nissa Nissa was alluding to the possibility of him having an 8 fix and I totally agree with this, I believe he had 4w5 and 8w9 fixes in addition to core 5w4 (in fact to be honest I see him as 8w9-second). I feel like if you were a tritype like that, you would not come off like a competency type no matter which was your core. It's double reactive, it's gutsy and raw-looking, not to mention emotionally charged. 

So I listened to Steven Wilson's music a lot last year and I see him as 5w6 sx/sp, but triple competent 3-5-1 and he totally comes off as a competency type to me...






I could not dream of being this meticulous, precise, etc. and frankly I don't think Kurt could either. Another thing is that I want to say I connect with his lyrics so well in that they feel so sx/sp-ish, but a lot of times that means really straight-up sentimental and romantic and what have you (but he's totally 5w6 at least from my perspective in that he never _ever_ gets that way in interviews, all he ever talks about is music)... I could see an sx/sp 5 with a 1 fix being this way, more willing to be tender and give in to vulnerability I suppose, whereas an 8-fixed sx/sp 5 might have more an attitude like, "I'm too tough for that garbage and it's bullshit anyway, I just want to fuck" (sorry, mincing words isn't my strong point generally :hopelessness without being that way too much (still not a core sx/sp 8 I mean). So like if he was a core 5 with an 8 fix + sx/sp stack he might end up with some of the vulgar lyrics he often did ("Love you so much it makes me sick") and never really getting overtly sentimental.

Anyway though what I ultimately meant to get at is that I feel like, just considering what he seemed to be preoccupied by generally... it feels to me personally like his fixation wasn't on anything gross because he felt sorrow so much as he felt disturbed, if for no other reason that his actions seemed like a compensation for...feeling uncomfortable? Overwhelmed? I mean he never really gave in to vulnerability, not publicly anyway, not in his music, not in interviews, he didn't really like music that was too sentimental... but what I'm really getting at is that, listening to his music, it never really fully feels like expression for the sake of emotional expression or wearing his heart on his sleeve but more at...mastery, honestly. He figured out a way to sing what were essentially pop songs but sung and played almost like metal (mastering the music industry and the masses' attention) with lyrics that were gross and weird like no one else's (mastering the dark forces of the world, so to speak). It all just feels so cerebral to me when I listen to it, it doesn't feel romantic at all... I feel like he's holding me at arm's length in a way... but I relate to it for that sense of alienation, I guess. I mean I guess that's why I've always loved his music so much. Just my perspective, though.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

I think that Robert Plant is a 3w2 sx. He is way too calculated and serious beneath the surface to be a core 7. The biggest piece of evidence I have is that he said that he changed his whole look as a teen because girls didn't find him attractive.


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## Manuscript (Feb 12, 2017)

If you want to see an internet user who exemplifies the INTJ 5w6, look here.


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## gambino (Apr 16, 2016)

Manuscript said:


> If you want to see an internet user who exemplifies the INTJ 5w6, look here.


Woah, now I'm doubting that I'm a 5w6 !!


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Manuscript said:


> If you want to see an internet user who exemplifies the INTJ 5w6, look here.


:shocked:

That page is frightening.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Seems the Great thread managed to get closed again while I was away... well, I'm still thinking about the Sx wetness thing. Maybe I get it but I'm overthinking it (like I have thought about how Sx-last is often drier), but I associate Sx more with electricity. Although yes, I've thought about how you could make different elemental versions of each instinct before too. Like it helps that I also tend to feel more watery like @*mistakenforstranger* but I'm also Sp. So that accounts for different associations.

But I did see something about Sx being "Dionysian" and Sx-last (especially SoSp?) being more "Apollonian", well I don't remember exactly how they put it, but I thought it was interesting, so throwing that out there.

And yeah, some of Taylor Swift's music can seem more intuitive or beta, like this




Although she has songs that aren't like that. Tbh I actually don't like that many of her songs, but the typing discussions for her are interesting (though I gave up on the actual thread for her a while ago, but these days I also avoid MBTI forums in general). 

(BTW don't like Pride & Prejudice or whatever. Well, I never read it, but it doesn't seem like kind of thing I would like)


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

@mistakenforstranger

Concretely speaking, what’s the case for Byron being 4w3 ? Self-esteem issues aside, he seemed textbook 7 Sx/So to me.

I also saw you typed Shelley So/Sp, why is that ?


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## Nokoiyuh (May 18, 2015)

Some NLSS Streamers, don't have all of them down

Northernlion: ENTP 9w8 5w6 3w2 sp/so
Rockleesmile: INFP 4w5 6w7 9w1 sx/so
JSmithOTI: ESTP 7w8 sx/so (8w9 fix as well?)
AlpacaPatrol: xSTP sp blind
BaerTaffy: ISFJ 269 in some order
Kate: high Je 3 core
Mathas: INTJ 5w6
DanGheesling: ENFJ (?)

Very incomplete, please @ me for your opinions


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Did the main _Frasier_ characters a while ago.

Frasier: 3w2 1w2 5w6 so/sp
Niles: 3w4 1w9 6w7 so/sp
Daphne: 4w3 7w6 9w1 sx/so
Marty: 9w8 6w5 3w2 sp/so
Roz: 7w8 3w2 9w8 so/sx

(edits - Frasier: 2w3 so/sx, Niles: 4w3)

Also typed the main Reba characters with @Nokoiyuh if anyone's interested.

Reba: 1w2 6w5 3w2 so/sp
Barbara Jean: 7w6 3w2 9w8 sx/so
Brock: 6w5 9w8 3w4 sp/so
Cheyanne: 3w2 7w8 8w9 so/sx
Van: 3w2 9w8 7w8 sx/so
Kyra: 4w5 5w4 8w9 sp/sx

Winx Club characters (yeah, pretty random)

Bloom: 6w7 2w1 9w1 so/sx
Stella: 3w4 7w6 8w7 sx/so
Flora: 9w1 6w7 2w1 sp/sx
Musa: 4w3 5w4 1w9 sp/sx
Tecna: 5w6 1w9 3w4 so/sp
Sky: 6w7 3w2 8w9 so/sx
Brandon: 3w2 8w7 7w8 sx/so
Helia: 1w9 5w4 4w5 sx/sp
Riven: 8w7 6w5 4w3 sp/sx
Timmy: 5w6 9w1 2w1 sp/so

If any of you watch any of these shows, would love to hear feedback.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> Did the main _Frasier_ characters a while ago (did full descriptions here).
> 
> Frasier: 3w2 1w2 5w6 so/sp


I think core 2, I think he is more...dramatic and essentially love-driven than a 3, 'psychiatrist who fixes everyone's problems but his own!' is a 2 trope lol, plus I think I see the bass from 8 rising up in him, see more power type than attachment as well. would also think so/sx but eh



> Niles: 3w4 1w9 6w7 so/sp


Not completely sure but I don't really see core 3, I've actually been thinking about core 1?? but I think social 4 makes most sense
Remember @mistakenforstranger having some interesting thoughts, don't remember if I'm agreeing right now or disagreeing, did you say sp 4?
And I don't really understand sx-last but :ambivalence: everyone else seems to agree



> Daphne: 4w3 7w6 9w1 sx/so


Tritype seems good but I'd maybe go for 7 fix or 9, she's a bit confusing



> Marty: 9w8 6w5 3w2 sp/so


yes



> Roz: 7w8 3w2 9w8 so/sx


yes, agree

(have more to say probably but must sleep)


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Nissa Nissa said:


> I think core 2, I think he is more...dramatic and essentially love-driven than a 3, 'psychiatrist who fixes everyone's problems but his own!' is a 2 trope lol, plus I think I see the bass from 8 rising up in him, see more power type than attachment as well. would also think so/sx but eh


That makes sense, honestly 2 is the type I know least about.



> Not completely sure but I don't really see core 3, I've actually been thinking about core 1?? but I think social 4 makes most sense
> Remember @mistakenforstranger having some interesting thoughts, don't remember if I'm agreeing right now or disagreeing, did you say sp 4?


Yeah, at the time I typed the characters, I didn't really understand type 4. I've read a lot more now, and I actually think that Niles is very social 4w3, would peg that as core. Maybe I was wrong about 3 cores, but I still think him and his brother are very heart triad. I'll probably edit the Tumblr post next time I log in. I do see a lot of his 1, but I still think it's the second fix rather than core.



> And I don't really understand sx-last but :ambivalence: everyone else seems to agree


All of Niles' variants seem really good to me, so it was really hard for me to come to that conclusion. Did this with friends who watch the show, and they agreed about that. He has a lot of so, especially if he's a 4 core. I'm not sure why I said so/sp for Frasier before, but I think that Niles is pretty sp compared to Frasier. He doesn't vibe sx blind, but I've met a couple sp/sos and so/sps like that so I think it's fine. But I'd like to hear what you think his variants are.


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

ElectricSlime said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> Concretely speaking, what’s the case for Byron being 4w3 ? Self-esteem issues aside, he seemed textbook 7 Sx/So to me.
> 
> I also saw you typed Shelley So/Sp, why is that ?


I will say when I first made those typings it was quite a while ago, and I didn't know as much about instincts. I could surely see Byron as 7 too, and he's definitely a sx/so poster boy. I'm still open to 4w3 for him, at least because that type plus sx/so can seem 7/8-ish, and on the other hand, a sx/so 7 can seem 4. I do think his attitude towards his club-foot may point to 4, but I really would have to do more digging to say for sure. I went with 4 at the time mainly because I grouped him in with all the other Romantic poets and the Byronic hero idea being 4-ish, but he isn't as obviously 4 as say Keats or Shelley. 

I went with Social 4 for Shelley mainly because some of his essays (on atheism, vegetarianism) are really in that vein of being a social critic, as Social 4s often are, and I definitely wouldn't see him as social-last. I could also see so/sx for him and that's probably a better fit for him on revisiting it. What did you think?

Once I find my book on the Romantics, I can get back to you with a more concrete answer. I'd really like to go over it all again, since I studied them when I didn't know about Enneagram as much as I do now, and they all have fascinating personalities.


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I will say when I first made those typings it was quite a while ago, and I didn't know as much about instincts. I could surely see Byron as 7 too, and he's definitely a sx/so poster boy. I'm still open to 4w3 for him, at least because that type plus sx/so can seem 7/8-ish, and on the other hand, a sx/so 7 can seem 4.


Yes yes we know that his tritype would be 784 in some order, I want to determine which is the core, otherwise it's too easy (and boring) :ninja: 



> I do think his attitude towards his club-foot may point to 4, but I really would have to do more digging to say for sure.


You mean the swimming incident ? Haha that was fucking legend. But yeah he carried all sorts of insecurities, mostly about being fat and his club foot. Pretty touchy and vindictive about them. 

Sexual Four might fit the bill, he was venomous and irritable enough. And it matches his intensity. I've come across some kind of journal where some unimportant dude that I forgot travelled to meet him as his hero and Shelley as well, and wrote down the events. Turns out he found Byron to be a total dick full of cynicism and spite, and Shelley a marvelous fellow lol. 



> I went with 4 at the time mainly because I grouped him in with all the other Romantic poets and the Byronic hero idea being 4-ish, but he isn't as obviously 4 as say Keats or Shelley.


Keats is probably the most obvious. He makes my cis white male student ass want to rescue him from his torments, and that's telling something 

Byron, if a Four, was definitely 4w3. Not an ounce of Five in him. And as was said, he was _definitely_ a poser to an extent.

What makes me lean towards Seven first however, is that he seemed more concerned about filling a void than in delving in its depths to gain back what was once lost. He was reflective sure, but even that seemed like a side effect of him having manic depression and wanting to exploit the maximum out of it. I guess that too is Fourish in a sense, but I mean more as Seven-like. He danced from one world to the other, but he seemed more interested in the external one, both in itself and as a way to fill the internal one. Anyway, a bit hard to explain. That's what I got from the course of his life,



> I went with Social 4 for Shelley mainly because some of his essays (on atheism, vegetarianism) are really in that vein of being a social critic, as Social 4s often are, and I definitely wouldn't see him as social-last. I could also see so/sx for him and that's probably a better fit for him on revisiting it. What did you think?


Oh I agreed with you about him being SO dom, totally ! His trade was in his critic stance towards society. Contrast with Byron as a Sx/So who did have some interest in SO matters and life, but almost always as a push towards the Sx and not as an absolute end in itself. For Shelley it was his "role". 

I think he would've had a field day in today's ambiguous sexuality bullshit, if I'm getting the right picture from him being a vegetarian and a cuck with his wife in the 19th century lol. Who knows, he might've been seen arguing with Ben Shapiro or something.

It was the Sx last I was more curious about. No strong stance either way, not sure how to interpret his being for "free love" in all that. 



> Once I find my book on the Romantics, I can get back to you with a more concrete answer. I'd really like to go over it all again, since I studied them when I didn't know about Enneagram as much as I do now, and they all have fascinating personalities.


Please do so!

Edit: Maybe we're actually retards and he was a 2w3 Sx or something :scratch: Just an idea that came up like that.

Edit2: Naaaah


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

ElectricSlime said:


> Edit: Maybe we're actually retards and he was a 2w3 Sx or something :scratch: Just an idea that came up like that.


Do you mean Byron? -I could see that, because neither 4 or 7 seems perfect to me, to much...force of will and positive direction in general for 4 but more impression of investment for 7...seems more image type...recurring passionate attachments, fairly self-glorifying, line to 8 makes sense and line to 4 too, seems like an ok type in general

Don't have time to expand but there's this:



> Mine were my faults, and mine be their reward.
> My whole life was a contest, since the day
> That gave me being, gave me that which marr'd
> The gift—a fate, or will, that walk'd astray;
> ...


pretty 4ish, but I can also see it representing relationship with Holy Will, that's what would really make sense about 2 for Byron for me, seems more concentrated on directing his own fate...where 4 usually sounds more like a victim? but maybe 4 can be like that, idk

If that typing's for Shelley though I would not enjoy it


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

@Nissa Nissa

I meant for Byron.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

What are some interesting typings you've seen?

Looking through the typings on Enneagram Institute (these are new, and occasionally disagree with Institute books) and comparing them with Condon's:

Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama is usually typed at Nine. Russ seems to think he's a Seven.
The mythologist Joseph Campbell is typed at Nine by both Ocean Moonshine writers and Russ Hudson. Condon seems to think Seven.
Russ puts both Jack Black and Jack Nicholson at Eight.
Oliver Stone is an Eight according to Condon, a Six according to Hudson.
Clint Eastwood is a Nine according to Condon, Hudson puts him at Eight.


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## greenmachine (May 12, 2018)

Eli puts Eastwood as a classical One, which makes sense imo.

Edit: also very funny is John Lennon:
- Enneagram Institute: 5
- Eli: 1
- Sandra Maitri: 7 afair


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

Brains said:


> What are some interesting typings you've seen?
> 
> Looking through the typings on Enneagram Institute (these are new, and occasionally disagree with Institute books) and comparing them with Condon's:
> 
> ...


Jack Black an Eight ?

He strikes me as a harmless clown tbh. I could kinda see him as 7w8 like Jack Nicholson but even then I’d be tempted to say 7w6. Clint is definitely Eight imo.


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## greenmachine (May 12, 2018)

Jack Nicholson is an 8 imo. Jack Black: probably 7 imo.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

ElectricSlime said:


> Jack Black an Eight ?
> 
> He strikes me as a harmless clown tbh. I could kinda see him as 7w8 like Jack Nicholson but even then I’d be tempted to say 7w6. Clint is definitely Eight imo.







He calls himself a clown in this interview


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## crazitaco (Apr 9, 2010)

I think Alice from Alice in Wonderland is a 7w6.
Curious and social, and gets carried away by her enthusiasm. She's always running away from her little 6 wing, never stopping to reason until ignoring it finally gets her into trouble. My favorite quote: "I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it"






If I had to guess her trifix, i'd say 7w6, 1w9(or 9w1), 2w1


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

greenmachine said:


> Eli puts Eastwood as a classical One


Do you have a link for this or is it deadtree only?


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## greenmachine (May 12, 2018)

Brains said:


> Do you have a link for this or is it deadtree only?


He writes it in his book and speaks about it in this youtube video: A6GX91jfVqA at minute 15:45 (I cannot post links yet).


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## richard nixon (Sep 14, 2017)

Thomas Jefferson INTP 5w4 sx/so or 1w9 sx/so. I'm going with 5w4 sx/so.

He could be detail oriented, he could be absolutist, he didn't like conflict, he kept his things locked up/tight control over his books, was distraught by loss, didn't let his daughter join a convent, and took criticism personally. But then he always liked the new, he spent a lot of money on luxuries, he was pretty spontaneous, was said to have never lost his temper, was into revolutions, wasn't very rigid about everything (he changed some of his views a lot), he was an iconoclast, and he was one of the smartest people ever so that's evidence of 5w4. 

Alexander Hamilton was an ENXX (but not an ENTP) 1w2 so/sp.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

greenmachine said:


> He writes it in his book and speaks about it in this youtube video: A6GX91jfVqA at minute 15:45 (I cannot post links yet).


It's interesting that Jaxon-Bear types Gary Cooper, Eastwood and Eastwood's role in Unforgiven as Ones - all are Nine in Condon's estimation.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Brains said:


> Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama is usually typed at Nine. Russ seems to think he's a Seven.


Seems like a pretty clear 9. Russ also thinks he's a 5, when he's more likely a 9. h: (I'm just being cheeky, but I could see it, and wonder if others do too...)



> The mythologist Joseph Campbell is typed at Nine by both Ocean Moonshine writers and Russ Hudson. Condon seems to think Seven.


This is an interesting one to me, but I would think 7 before 9, even though I actually lean more towards Social 5 for him. Jung, who is often thrown in the 9 camp with him (and Campbell has obvious ties to), I also think is more of a 5 than a 9, and is even more 5 than Campbell. Where do people see 9 for Jung? 



> Russ puts both Jack Black and Jack Nicholson at Eight.


Nicholson is probably 8, Black is probably 7. Still wonder if those seem too obvious or the go-to typings for them based on their personas/roles, like I wonder if Nicholson is actually a 3, and Black is a 9...? Although, between the two in Tenacious D, Kyle Gass is the 9, and Black is way more assertive triad, so 7 works. Still, would be open to 3 for Nicholson.



> Oliver Stone is an Eight according to Condon, a Six according to Hudson.


Based on movies and the subject matter he covers alone, I'd guess 6.



> Clint Eastwood is a Nine according to Condon, Hudson puts him at Eight.


I could see 8, but think he lacks that bold presence (outside of his roles) that 8s have too, so think 9w8 is possible, and like Ray Liotta here seems like a pretty clear 8 and says Eastwood is overrated at 2:25 lol.


* *













FWIW, I find Eli's typings of celebrities some of the worst...

Here's the Sexual 5s listed in his book lol:



> Meryl Streep, Glenn Close, William Hurt, Ben Kingsley, Jeff Bridges, Jeremy Irons, Ingmar Bergman, Gary Snyder, Marlene Dietrich, Spencer Tracy, Jimmy Stewart, Howard Hughes, performers (WTF does that mean?)


Besides Howard Hughes, who I'm not even sure is a 5 but seems the most plausible out of all of them, I can't see any of those people being 5s.

And Sexual 1s include:



> John Lennon, Prince Charles, Martha Stewart, Al Gore, Abraham Lincoln, Emma Thompson, Aretha Franklin, Dianne Feinstein, Jean Luc-Picard, Walt Whitman, nudist nature clubs :laughing:, Sweden


That's just dreadful, like sure Martha Stewart and Al Gore are 1s, but sx-doms?? 

Anyone know Eli's type?


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## greenmachine (May 12, 2018)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Anyone know Eli's type?


Afair he types himself as sexual 8 (Idk if I remember the subtype correctly but 8 is pretty sure and is also pretty obvious.)
Btw: I don't know most of the 5s he listed but Meryl Streep is obviously a 5.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I think the Joseph Campbell/Jung thing had to do with 9 being the crown of the Enneagram, like the most 'perfect' type in tune with the unconscious?

Often see this connection at least.

But I think it's Ni, not Nine.

Don't know that much about the men themselves to say about their types but I don't think the mythological unity they represent us Nine at all.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

Rick and Morty 

Rick: ENTP 7w8-8w7-4w3 sp/sx (alternative typing: 5w4 or 5w6 core but his enthusiastic wing-it attitude and his need to bring Morty along on his adventures is very 7-like. I think Rick is what a nihilistic 7 would look like.)
Morty: ISFJ 6w7-9w1-2w1 so/sp (alternative typing: could be sp/so and could potentially be 9w1 core. 9w1s can act very similar to phobic 6s)


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

I tried trityping characters from _The Middle_ yesterday. I've only really seen discussion about their MBTI types so I'd like to hear other people's input on their tritype if they've seen the show, here are my guesses.

Frankie: 6w7 2w3 9w8 so/sx
(could be 2 core too, idk)

Mike: 9w8 5w6 3w4 sp/so

Axl: 7w6 3w2 9w8 so/sp
(maybe 7w8 but I'm not good with 7 wings)

Sue: 2w3 7w6 9w1 so/sx

Brick: 5w4 9w1 4w5 sp/sx

Typed all of them as 9 fixes, lol, which makes me think there's something wrong. Also, I'm not good with variants.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

More interesting discrepancies:

Condon typed Mailer at 8w7, as did Riso in Personality Types. Wisdom of the Enneagram puts him at 8w9.






Wikipedia article on Mailer.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Typewatch puts Mailer st 6w5


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> I tried trityping characters from _The Middle_ yesterday. I've only really seen discussion about their MBTI types so I'd like to hear other people's input on their tritype if they've seen the show, here are my guesses.
> 
> Frankie: 6w7 2w3 9w8 so/sx
> (could be 2 core too, idk)
> ...


I think that Brick's core is 9. There's an episode in the final season where they're all talking about the roles they have in the family, and Brick says that his role is to be nothing, to not want or need anything or place any demands on anybody. I think he referred to himself as a "cactus flower" or something. He often says that he feels invisible, and he stays out of everybody's way, and expresses how frustrated he is with being the ignored third kid on a few occasions. 

He doesn't really seem to be as affected at his core by issues regarding security or feelings of inadequacy. He seems greatly affected by his sense of worth or his "place" (or rather, lack thereof). He also operates under the belief that if he goes along with what somebody else wants, he'll be left alone to do his own thing, e.g. that episode where Mike tries to teach him to "get tough" with bullies.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Flower Hat said:


> I think that Brick's core is 9. There's an episode in the final season where they're all talking about the roles they have in the family, and Brick says that his role is to be nothing, to not want or need anything or place any demands on anybody. I think he referred to himself as a "cactus flower" or something. He often says that he feels invisible, and he stays out of everybody's way, and expresses how frustrated he is with being the ignored third kid on a few occasions.
> 
> He doesn't really seem to be as affected at his core by issues regarding security or feelings of inadequacy. He seems greatly affected by his sense of worth or his "place" (or rather, lack thereof). He also operates under the belief that if he goes along with what somebody else wants, he'll be left alone to do his own thing, e.g. that episode where Mike tries to teach him to "get tough" with bullies.


Ooh, that's a good point. I can definitely see core 9 for Brick.

As someone who seems very familiar with The Middle, would you change anything else about my other typings?


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

.....Does anyone agre?



> *Lassie, the Wonder-Dog (Well Trained)*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://oaks.nvg.org/big-five.html


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> Ooh, that's a good point. I can definitely see core 9 for Brick.
> 
> As someone who seems very familiar with The Middle, would you change anything else about my other typings?


I don't think that I'd change anything else. I definitely agree with you on Frankie and Mike, and as far as their tritypes, I think you've gotten them right. I'm not 100% sure about Axl and Sue - I think that Axl shows some evidence for having a heart core, since he focuses a lot on how people respond to him, builds his identity around being a charmer and becomes very insecure when people don't respond well to him, but I'm not willing to rule out 7 just yet. For Sue, my uncertainty comes from her not really seeming to have the core feelings of any of the types she possesses the behaviours of; she _has_ said before that she feels that she's average and she seems to try her best to prove to herself that she's talented or special, which seems 3/4-ish to me but I could be wrong. I definitely felt that of the lot I understood Brick best, so I'm not very sure about the others.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Flower Hat said:


> I don't think that I'd change anything else. I definitely agree with you on Frankie and Mike, and as far as their tritypes, I think you've gotten them right. I'm not 100% sure about Axl and Sue - I think that Axl shows some evidence for having a heart core, since he focuses a lot on how people respond to him, builds his identity around being a charmer and becomes very insecure when people don't respond well to him, but I'm not willing to rule out 7 just yet. For Sue, my uncertainty comes from her not really seeming to have the core feelings of any of the types she possesses the behaviours of; she _has_ said before that she feels that she's average and she seems to try her best to prove to herself that she's talented or special, which seems 3/4-ish to me but I could be wrong. I definitely felt that of the lot I understood Brick best, so I'm not very sure about the others.


True, I'm open to the possibility of Axl being a heart core. I'm a 3 and I actually found him most relatable of the bunch, so a 3w2 core wouldn't shock me. Makes sense for Sue as well... I could see another heart fix over 2, although I guess I thought triple positive 279 worked best for her as a tritype. I'm not sure if 2w3s would do the same thing regarding proving their worth, it's probably the type I know least about. Thinking about it, I can also see her as a 479.


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> True, I'm open to the possibility of Axl being a heart core. I'm a 3 and I actually found him most relatable of the bunch, so a 3w2 core wouldn't shock me. Makes sense for Sue as well... I could see another heart fix over 2, although I guess I thought triple positive 279 worked best for her as a tritype. I'm not sure if 2w3s would do the same thing regarding proving their worth, it's probably the type I know least about. Thinking about it, I can also see her as a 479.


I'm still on the fence about Axl tbh, mainly because I can't really argue for or against 7 core due to my lack of understanding of that type.

Oh, I do agree that Sue fits the 279 tritype really well. The issue I have with her regarding enneagram is that while she seems to have the motives (wanting to be special, significant) of a 4, she doesn't really make use of the kind of tactics a 4 would, the biggest one being that she's the polar opposite of "withdrawing." And, while like a 2 she is incredibly helpful, she doesn't really seem to use helpfulness as a way to gain approval.

On the topic of her instincts, I do believe that she is a social dominant type (I think you'd pegged her as so/sx). She has this extreme,ly innocent quality that I associate with so/sp people, but that would be typing based on associations on my part, and she _is_ quite painfully impractical at times.


----------



## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Flower Hat said:


> I'm still on the fence about Axl tbh, mainly because I can't really argue for or against 7 core due to my lack of understanding of that type.
> 
> Oh, I do agree that Sue fits the 279 tritype really well. The issue I have with her regarding enneagram is that while she seems to have the motives (wanting to be special, significant) of a 4, she doesn't really make use of the kind of tactics a 4 would, the biggest one being that she's the polar opposite of "withdrawing." And, while like a 2 she is incredibly helpful, she doesn't really seem to use helpfulness as a way to gain approval.
> 
> On the topic of her instincts, I do believe that she is a social dominant type (I think you'd pegged her as so/sx). She has this extreme,ly innocent quality that I associate with so/sp people, but that would be typing based on associations on my part, and she _is_ quite painfully impractical at times.


Same, I don't think my knowledge of 7 is very strong. A social dominant 7w6 would likely behave similarly to a 3, but have different motives why. I read a little bit about the key motivations of 3 and 7 though and 3 seems very relevant to him.



> Key Motivations (of 3): Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.
> 
> Key Motivations (of 7): Want to maintain their freedom and happiness, to avoid missing out on worthwhile experiences, to keep themselves excited and occupied, to avoid and discharge pain.


That makes sense for Sue. A lot of types fit her well, but none perfectly. I started wondering if she could be a core type outside of the heart triad, but 7 and 9 just don't make sense for her core. I could see her as so/sp as well


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> Same, I don't think my knowledge of 7 is very strong. A social dominant 7w6 would likely behave similarly to a 3, but have different motives why. I read a little bit about the key motivations of 3 and 7 though and 3 seems very relevant to him.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes sense for Sue. A lot of types fit her well, but none perfectly. I started wondering if she could be a core type outside of the heart triad, but 7 and 9 just don't make sense for her core. I could see her as so/sp as well


Based on that description, 3 definitely seems better, I agree.

As for Sue, I'm still not too sure. I find her pretty hard to figure out. Sometimes she admits to feeling invisible and seems to want to excel at something or to impress people in order to feel valuable. At other times, she seems blind to the fact that she goes unnoticed or that people aren't really responding well to her. There was an episode that has her studying very, very hard for the SATs (or something) and when Frankie compares her to Axl, pointing out that Sue puts a lot of pressure on herself while Axl is so laid back, Sue says that it's because she feels like she's in "the middle" or average in every aspect of her life. That seemed closest to type 3 to me.


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

I have talked about my love for literature a few times here. I've finished Portnoy's Complaint by Philip Roth a while ago, and now I'm reading American Pastoral.

I dunno much about the guy's life, but I wonder if he was a 6w5. His work is all centered on culture and identity based on groups he was affiliated to (mainly the Jewish American community). He is very critical of convention/the status quo in general. There is a lot of comedy in his works, too, and some say Sixes make great comedians. 

Oh, Bruce Springsteen (a famous 6) said he loves Roth. Doesn't mean much, but out of all the celebrities who could've praised Roth, a 6 praised Roth. My intuition says there is something here.

What do you guys think?


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## Cosmic Chaos (Jun 8, 2018)

Fictional ENTPs I know off

Chandler Bing= 6w7 9w1 4w3 So/Sp
Weasley Twins= 7w6 9w8 3w2 So/Sx
Wilders Wonka= 7w6 4w3 1w2 Sp/So
Tony Stark= 3w2 7w8 8w7 Sx/So


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## gambino (Apr 16, 2016)

Any one know any examples of the 358 tritype? Curious.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

*Pleeeeeease* somebody type Nostradamous?


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I want to type this singer as sx 2:











don't really have anything to back it up with though, just my instinct; anyone have thoughts?

haven't found any really good interviews but in case anyone's interested:






(more social topics though so idk)


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

Electra said:


> *Pleeeeeease* somebody type Nostradamous?


How could we possibly type some guy that has been dead for thousands of years?


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

@Nissa Nissa I know that you're good at typing songs. What would you type Change by Lana Del Rey? 

There's something in the wind
I can feel it blowing in
It's coming in softly
On the wings of a bomb
There's something in the wind
I can feel it blowing in
It's coming in hotly
And it's coming in strong
Lately I've been thinking it's just someone else's job to care
Who am I to sympathize when no one gave a damn?
I've been thinking it's just someone else's job to care
Who am I to wanna try but
Change is a powerful thing
People are powerful beings
Trying to find the power in me to be faithful
Change is a powerful thing
I feel it coming in me
Maybe by the time this song is done
I'll be able
To be honest, capable
Of holding you in my arms without letting you fall when I don't feel beautiful
Or stable
Maybe it's enough to just be where we are because
Everytime that we run
We don't know what it's from
Now we finally slow down
We feel close to it
There's a change gonna come
I don't know where or when
But whenever it does
We'll be here for it
There's something in the wind
I can feel it blowing in
It's coming in softly
On the wings of a song
There's something in the water
I can taste it turning sour
It's bitter, I'm coughing
But now it's in my blood
Lately I've been thinking it's just someone else's job to care
Who am I to sympathize when no one gave a damn?
I've been thinking it's just someone else's job to care
'Cause who am I to wanna try but
Change is a powerful thing
People are powerful beings
Trying to find the power in me to be faithful
Change is a powerful thing
I feel it coming in me
Maybe by the time this song is done
I'll be able
To be honest, capable
Of holding you in my arms without letting you fall when I don't feel beautiful
Or stable
Maybe it's enough to just be where we are because
Everytime that we run
We don't know what it's from
Now we finally slow down
We feel close to it
There's a change gonna come
I don't know where or when
But whenever it does
We'll be here for it
Hmmm
Yeah, whenever it does
We'll be here for it
Hmmm
Whenever it does
We'll be here for it


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

bundleofraindrops said:


> @Nissa Nissa I know that you're good at typing songs.













> What would you type Change by Lana Del Rey?
> 
> There's something in the wind
> I can feel it blowing in
> ...


(I think Lana is a 2w3, tend to think sp/sx too, her last album feels really different though, it's interesting)

This song feels 9w8 to me, bolded things that seem particularly 9w8ish, also feels more social than usual (a few really social songs on this album! not sure if I should be thinking of Lana as high social though)

Not sure if I understand the underlying idea behind the song but I think it's about dreading change, wanting to give up on the world, doubting the world, but deciding to have the strength and fortitude to stick with it

Think there are signs of 2 in there too, like this:_ I'll be able
To be honest, capable
Of holding you in my arms without letting you fall when I don't feel beautiful
_

is pretty image-triady, 'capable of holding without letting fall' feels like a 9 thing, like trouble with sloth, holding on, but I can see it as a 2 or 4 problem, 'can I be honest?' 'am I capable of not letting you down?' 'do I hurt people because of my image issues?'

and even this:



> Lately I've been thinking it's just someone else's job to care


reminds me more of 9 attitudes but I can see it from a 2 who is done being the person who cares (though I do think 9s can have this often)

Why? What's your take on it?


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

@Nissa Nissa Spot on with the typing since my 9w8 INFP seems to be into it! She feels like she's going back to her apathetic ways.


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