# I'm uncertain about how important confidence is in dating, how important really is confidence in men?



## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

As the title says, I'm uncertain about how important confidence is, how important really is confidence in men? 

Like I can be confident, but I don't really like it, I don't really feel good that way, it feels that it doesn't represent me, and I don't want to abandon that. It feels like it goes against my natural inclinations and I have to pick, between going for my natural inclinations or going for what would be most desireable, and I don't like to pick.

I'm not certain all the time, and that's okay, I'm okay with that, I have doubts, I can figure it out on the way. I am vulnerable, this whole stone-cold confident doesn't represent me, I can be like that, but I don't like being like that, I don't feel good while being like that, and I don't want to compromise myself.

But there is a lot, and I mean overwhelmingly a lot of advice saying that No.1 most attractive thing in a man is confidence.

There's an overwhelming amount of online dating advice that says: men have to be d.ominant, courageous and optimisitc. Confidence is to look certain when handling uncertainity.

A lot of people saying stuff like: A confident person is someone who appears to be certain. It's how a man behaves that determines if people view him as confident. To be succesful, you only have to appear to be confident. And the most important part of being confident, is appearing to be certain, even if on the inside you're scared out of your mind and have no idea what you're going to do.

Men are attracted to appearance, women are attracted to behavior. Uncertainity is very unattractive.

Confidence is the behavior needed to appear certain when facing uncertainity. Dominance can only be determined in relation to other people, and it's the guy who seems the most sure of himself around others that is viewed as dominant, you only need to be dominant around the girl you date or are in a relationship with.

Girl find dominant attractive. Guys find submissive attractive. This is why women usually take photos from upside-down, it makes them appear small, they don't do it consciously, they do it because it feels right.

And the best way to gain confidence is progress, we gain confidence as we gain progress in an area we're lacking. People who are missing something, and during this time they feel like they can't succed with anything, until they have whatever it was they thought they needed, so once they obtained it, they no longer lacked it and felt confident.

It's a very common stereotype both on the internet and outside of it: _"women like dominanting confident men"_, _"women like macho-men alpha-boys"_ or _"women like bad boys with an attitude that treat people like crap but are dominant and strong"_ . It's like women are this weak thing, wanting that stone-cold confident strong thing. And on one hand I understand it, it's a simple message really it.

But at the same time I don't like it because I don't resonate to it, it's something I don't like to be. Trying to be that it feels like I'm compromising myself, I don't feel good while doing or being that, it simply doesn't represent me and I don't want to.

Now. I understand that women, and people in general if you extend it to all kind of social relationship, won't like you simply for being yourself. You have to give a little to get a little and you have to do it first.

But, can't that be something else beside confidence? How important really is confidence in men?

I know that you have to evoke out of the ordinary positive feelings and out of the ordinary negative feelings if you want to be noticed, ups and downs. For that's how remember things in general, we don't remember things that made us feel netural, or not feel anything. Always positive feelings works but it could get kind of borings, always negative feelings would make you an ahole, it's probably the worst, but a mix of negative and positive which usually comes from being honest about your interests and tastes is attractive, giving your honest opinion when you like or dislike something, is great. Having a room of individuality right there. You don't have to be copies of each other to have a good time.

There are other things that matter. To have a good attitude that would lift people up, we create good vibes around us. It counts as being charming. To have a good character, to treat people right, to take into account how other people feel. To have a good soul, want to help and appreciate what others do for you. To show that you look beyond looks, appreciate the person they are. To show you want the best for them, would help and value them, would do a lot for them. To have courage to take action, courage is guts but respectful, taking into account other people's feelings.

To have a conversation that revolves around laughing with each other, making jokes: sarcasm, self-humor, teasing. But to also be able to be deep and talk about feelings. And yes, it's important to have that confidence to engnage, to actually go out there and initiate a discussion with them, but also that empathy to want to know more about them, to be interested in them. It's not about dominating but about being there.

And that is probably my splitting issue. Where as lots of online dating experts say you have to be dominant, the alpha-male and play _"who can look the least interested while being interested game"_, I think you just have to be there.

Where as the average online dating expect would see this as "weakness" or as "showing feelings" which is "unattractive". I think you should attract with emotions, not with strength. Showing that you have a good character, the inner person, showing sensitivity and vulnerability but in a controlled way, not playing childish pride games, being the better person and the one that breaks the pride. Women have the same type of feelings men have and want a comfortable relationship above all. One when they feel they can be open and feel understood, one where they feel seen, we all like feeling we are being seen. What separates women and men is society's expectations.

I also have a feeling this "be an alpha-male" thing is a crap that will do more harm than good, although the idea is simple, this that confidence thing _"to be succesful, you only have to appear to be confident. And the most imporant part of being confident, is appearing to be certain, even if on the inside you're scared out of your mind and have no idea what you're going to do"_ is bad and wrong. But at the same time, I don't feel confident enough to dismiss it either, since an overwhelmingly lot of people seem to agree with it.

Of course, it also matters to be good looking, take care of your hygiene. And have a good time with each other, usually with jokes like self-humor or sarcasm. But what I'm saying is that there's no need to be matcho man and alpha male, vulnerability is good and expected in humans. Instead of being dominant as the core of attraction, the core of attraction should be having empathy to want to get to know the person, be interested in them.

Let's take for example the most stereotypical part about this alpha male phenomenon, the pick-up lines. I try to put myself in the place of a woman getting pick-up lines. And I don't find them attractive, in fact I find them cringe. If I'm not attracted by a pick-up line like that, probably women who want a serious relationship aren't either, they may find it superficial and cringy. Or maybe, it depends on woman, but I think all women know that pick-up lines are fake and if a woman is attracted by pick-up lines, she is attracted by the person itself, not the pick-up lines effectively.

What do you think? And where do you think all of this is coming from?


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

I read half of that. Just wanted to say that I can be confident and get no response. Its not something you can play or dance with easily. Once you have the confidence you are expected to take charge. Ime that just means doing something you dont want to do. 

When im confident ID rather rap or DJ or more conveniently play video games at an increased level. 

My confidence is wasted on women.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Pick up lines are for simps


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

I think that all of this is useless bullshit and I don't see any point in subscribing to it. And all of these "online dating experts" are just cancer. 

For example, suppose you "convinced" someone into being seduced by your fake persona, what next? You will maintain this play for the entire duration of the relationship? Does this look like a healthy way to develop a meaningful long-term connection?

The part about confidence/submissiveness is silly. People are different and like different things.

I think everyone can benefit from being confident and certain. Managing self and the environment.
I don't respect weak and useless people, regardless of gender. I don't need a vulnerable submissive female to boost my ego by being reliant on me, this is pointless.



> I think you should attract with emotions, not with strength.


No, you shouldn't attract with anything I think. The best policy in the long-term is just not trying intentionally to appeal at all and just being yourself. 
You should develop/enforce qualities that you personally find good/appealing for yourself. Not because they are appealing to someone else.

Everything holds up for me even if it turns out that the majority of females do like a specific set of traits in men. I would rather be unattractive but true to myself.


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Plus I think there's a difference between confidence and dominance. You can be confident about how you fit into the world without being a dominant personality. I think most people are uncertain about the dating thing, what I think they are getting at is that it's more attractive when the other person is confident as a human- you know what you're doing and where you are going in a general sense and don't NEED another person for your life to be complete. If you have yourself figured out, finding another person is way easier. If not, you're just bringing your personal confusion into a more confusing situation in the hopes that somehow that will resolve your issues. 

I saw a thing someone posted recently that said this:
"If you are broken, you should be healing, not dating and projecting your traumas on others. In all things there is a law of cycles. Until you heal and change your thinking patterns, you will always recycle your relationships." I think if you are not broken, are healthy and comfortable with who you are, THAT is confidence. And some uncertainty about the dating process isn't going to tank that- it will show through. 

Game playing just shows lack of confidence- if you are OK with who you are, the rest will follow. 

My 2 cents.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm of the belief that the most silent guy in the room is usually the most confident one lol


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

DOGSOUP said:


> I'm of the belief that the most silent guy in the room is usually the most confident one lol


Exactly

So what do you talk about 

Lol


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Purrfessor said:


> Exactly
> 
> So what do you talk about
> 
> Lol


me, twirling my hair: "so lately I've been super into the strong silent type, do you happen to know anyone like that btw"
him: "...?"


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## Summer70 (Feb 27, 2021)

As @Allostasis said, people are different and like different things. Just be the person you want to be, and you'll attract the right person.

What attracted me to my current husband was his strength combined with his lack of confidence. He was always stressed-out, sweaty, and self-conscious when I was around so I started teasing him aha. I think he was cute, humble, and refreshing. He knows he's not perfect, so he always does his best to better himself. Despite his doubts and fears, he goes forward: he perseveres and takes risks. I like that.

A lot of female friends told me that a man who owns his vulnerabilities without ignoring nor bending to them is hot. It's a strength on its own. Shared vulnerabilities also add a lot of depth to a relationship so it's more than welcome.

(note: All this falsely confident alpha man talk sounds like toxic masculinity btw. Not only is it old-fashioned, but it also shows a deep weakness in a man instead of strength. To me, at least.)


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

I think some of the basic things women look for in a man are:

1. COMPETENCE to handle life, intelligence, help provide, make money, basic stuff, bonus if he excels at making money.
2. INTEGRITY to not cheat, stick around and support the family. (honesty)
3. STRENGTH to defend her and the family against basic threats. (physical, mental)
4. STABILITY to not fizzle out, burn out, implode, stay strong, keep going. (May be indicated by being funny, positive, not so tense and nervous all the time, lack of serious mental health issues)
5. COMPANIONSHIP - someone she can simply get along with. (personality, similar interests)
6. HEALTH - A healthy man can help her bear healthy children (biologically speaking, indicated through being attractive enough, not overly sickly)

Confidence is but ONE indicator of most of the above. Especially 1-4.
(No one's perfect. There's always compromises of course. Also not saying that a woman needs a man to be 100% in all these in order to like him. They're just basic categories. She maybe attracted to an X-factor that makes his weaknesses forgiveable)

A man without confidence could come across as lacking integrity because he might seem like he's hiding something. Or he's indecisive because he hasn't thought things through, doesn't have a plan, isn't competent at dealing with life. He's wishy washy doesn't have a strong set of values. He could be a cheat, or prone to being indecisive with which partner he wants, and just wants anyone who'll accept him. A weak man might be insecure because he doesn't know if he can handle hardships whether physical or mental.

But a confident man can ALSO BYPASS all this and still be a cheat, a player, good at acting and putting it on an impressive show of competence but he actually has no competence. Which means he's competent at being a con-artist (CONFIDENCE MAN - funny how it's called that).

I think people are so attracted to confidence is because it can be difficult to put on, especially for those not accustomed to it. It's a skill. And it is generally a good key indicator (Most of the time perhaps) of those other traits. But it's not the only one.

Women should also look for to verify that the confidence is genuine is track record, friend circles, reputation, how he treats his parents and family, etc. Sussing him out. Confidence is like a resume because it's the first and most obvious thing you see. No one hires someone on the resume alone. You do background checks. Interview. Suss out. Trying to distinguish the imitation confidence from the genuine confidence.

A man may genuinely have all the necessary traits to be a good partner: competent, honest, strong, stable, healthy, a real great guy, but he may lack confidence for whatever (possible aberrant) reason, and it might let him down. He might need to brush up on his confidence like a resume. It sucks but... you gotta do what you gotta do. It's arguable that confidence is skill under competence, or an outcome of mental strength.

Maybe a perceptive woman can look past confidence, and see who he really is underneath too.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Dezir said:


> As the title says, I'm uncertain about how important confidence is, how important really is confidence in men?
> 
> Like I can be confident, but I don't really like it, I don't really feel good that way, it feels that it doesn't represent me, and I don't want to abandon that. It feels like it goes against my natural inclinations and I have to pick, between going for my natural inclinations or going for what would be most desireable, and I don't like to pick.
> 
> ...



There are a few basic fundamentals most women expect you to have as a man and confidence is one of them.
List is basically;

Financial security -> Safety
Confidence
Height (taller than she is) -> Safety
Stronger than she is -> Safety
Social Status (not seen as a loser by society)
After you satisfy at least 2 of the above, the average woman may give u a chance.


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## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

You have misunderstood because you do not understand the terms you're using.



> Confidence is the behavior needed to appear certain when facing uncertainity


Confidence isn't about "appearing". It is about being. And it isn't about being certain when facing uncertainity. It is about keeping the trust and hope right in the face of uncertainty.

It doesn't have *to look like,* it has *to be*.
And when it is, there is no doubt.
I have no doubt that I will not be able to use my legs to run today because I know I have them. I don't think about them, I don't analyze them. I know I have them, I know I can use them properly, I'm not interested in appearances.
It is the same with mental abilities.

So it is with confidence.
When you have it, you don't even realize it. It's something natural you're not aware of.

Of course, this does not apply in all circumstances and sometimes it is really useful to have doubts. You can have confidence in one environment and not in another. It's not interchangeable.
Everything we talk about is related to dating only insofar as (the subject of the discussion) is reflected in this environment. That's it.

It's like studying music out of passion. Let's say you learn to play the piano. You don't think that "_I'm learning the piano to conquer and satisfy souls_" (you can do this and some really do and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I find it really nice, most of the time this happens without having this as a goal, though, this is just a collateral result), most of them think strictly about personal satisfaction (professional, material, emotional, spiritual, whatever it may be).


Confidence is among the most beneficial and valuable virtues a rational being can possess. Like every virtue, it is an attractive trait most of the time. Not just for women or for men or just when it comes to "dating".
If you want to read more about virtues, I suggest you to read that.


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Dezir said:


> As the title says, I'm uncertain about how important confidence is, how important really is confidence in men?
> 
> Like I can be confident, but I don't really like it, I don't really feel good that way, it feels that it doesn't represent me, and I don't want to abandon that. It feels like it goes against my natural inclinations and I have to pick, between going for my natural inclinations or going for what would be most desireable, and I don't like to pick.
> 
> ...


If by confidence you mean knowing your worth, I would say that’s a trait anyone of any gender should have when it comes to dating (ideally). Not only it makes it easier for you to connect with people you are interested in without defense mechanisms or self sabotaging, but it also ensures you will make sure you are treated well by others.
As a woman I can say that the ‘macho man’ stereotype is really a big turn off, at least to me. Such men are cut off from their emotions and true core, so they are lacking something essential for me to find them attractive. There is a common misconception that those ‘alpha’ male are strong and desirable, when it’s not necessarily true and can be the total opposite even. Real strength has nothing to do with being aggressive, not even assertive. Also, a sensitive man is not at all necessarily weak. If anything most empaths I’ve met are very strong actually.
I find emotional, empathetic and sensitive men to be extremely attractive. If he is confident or not that’s irrelevant.


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

Yes I think it's better to not take the alpha male/dominant thing too seriously indeed. Particularly the concept of dominance. This alpha dominant male thing was devised to reduce the complexities of romantic relationships, politics and sex by trying to analyse them based on the behaviors observed in primates. I don't know what to say with that ?  Except kindly reminding that I'm not a primate ... Honestly PerC is the only society I'm in where the idea of alpha male is given free reign - and the only consequence I see the concept having is some men self-harming themselves by taking it too seriously. I couldn't care less for the stereotypical alpha male myself. And the numerical prevalence you seem to mention seems more like an overmediatisation of the thing, not really telling of women's preferences, which can't really by modelized to easily.

@Dezir : I think you're really on into something with all the self-awareness you have about how you don't want to compromise your integrity, shielding the fact that you're someone with vulnerabilities as everyone and have a fake tough front. I've been in a relationship where I felt like I had to put an act all the time to meet the other person's expectations - this kind of thing doesn't even work, it just builds resentment.

If by confidence you mean owning up to the fact that you're a human being with vulnerabilities, accepting the fact that you're interested in the person, thus putting the minimum effort to make the relationship going somewhere. Yes, of course it works better that way.

So yes, you're also into something with the below, minus the fact that personally I don't necessarily need a man to "help"me non-stop being not a damself-in-distress but otherwise you're into something I believe :



> There are other things that matter. To have a good attitude that would lift people up, we create good vibes around us. It counts as being charming. To have a good character, to treat people right, to take into account how other people feel. To have a good soul, want to help and appreciate what others do for you. To show that you look beyond looks, appreciate the person they are. To show you want the best for them, would help and value them, would do a lot for them. To have courage to take action, courage is guts but respectful, taking into account other people's feelings.
> 
> To have a conversation that revolves around laughing with each other, making jokes: sarcasm, self-humor, teasing. But to also be able to be deep and talk about feelings. And yes, it's important to have that confidence to engnage, to actually go out there and initiate a discussion with them, but also that empathy to want to know more about them, to be interested in them. It's not about dominating but about being there.


However :
1. Honestly all of what you wrote is not adressed by dating advices sites (which I concur looks like they are written with people not so well-versed themselves at how to human) but by developing empathy, listening and conversational skills regardless of gender, which takes getting to social situations more that rehearsing them beforehand. Although I think reading fiction where you have the opportunity to get into people's head for example is a good way to develop empathy.

2. You don't have to tailor yourself in advance to some abstract expectation. Really be the person you want to be, (and if it includes the quoted above, you can also work towards it), do the best you are able to do at this point in time, and you'll attract someone with whom you'll click. It becomes clear _during_ the relationship if there are compromises to be made to adjust to the person rythm or love language.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Attraction is not that complicated. I don't know why so many try to make it sound like it's rocket science. The formula is simple. Direct communicator + indirect communicator = Sexual tension and intrigue.

Are you a direct communicator? You're in luck. It just so happens that most women are indirect communicators. Just make them comfortable in your presence and the rest will take care of itself.

Are you an indirect communicator? I have good news and bad news. The good news is that some women are direct communicators. The bad news is that most aren't. The best news is you can learn to be direct and vice versa.

That's it.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

All my 'success' with women has been via natural connection.

This is either from actually knowing the person over an amount of time, or on the very rare occasions I've had one night stands, it has been from talking together for most of the night and suddenly ending up in bed together. Alcohol obviously was part of the recipe too.

I find the one night stands particularly interesting because I wasn't playing any games or going on a quest to get laid. I have no idea how to do that without feeling awkward or insincere. They were genuine cases where interest grew just from talking.

So, at least in my experience, I don't think confidence is an issue. Connection is more important, in my opinion.

That being said, I've never really been interested in going on a one-track mission to score, or to date for the sake of dating. I generally don't like my interactions with women (or anyone!) to be too fickle.


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## Plusless (Aug 19, 2020)

Social confidence attracts people to you, self-confidence attracts people who know you. The "alpha" stereotype is just over the top social confidence, it is not required for being attractive, having some balance between these two types is the key. No matter how much self-confidence you have, no one will notice it if you don`t have social confidence, which is more important for men since they are approached less. Anything other than that depends on the who and why.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Allostasis said:


> I think that all of this is useless bullshit and I don't see any point in subscribing to it. And all of these "online dating experts" are just cancer.
> 
> For example, suppose you "convinced" someone into being seduced by your fake persona, what next? You will maintain this play for the entire duration of the relationship? Does this look like a healthy way to develop a meaningful long-term connection?
> 
> ...


Thank you. I couldn't have said it better. Personally, if I have to act a certain way to get a woman, then just forget about the whole damn thing. I'd rather be single. The only woman I would want is one that truly appreciates me for who I really am; to hell with the rest. If that means I die single, so be it. At least I have some appreciation for myself, even if women don't. But anyways, wouldn't it be that much better to be with a woman if she is right for you and truly appreciates who you are?


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Deuce said:


> Yes I think it's better to not take the alpha male/dominant thing too seriously indeed. Particularly the concept of dominance. This alpha dominant male thing was devised to reduce the complexities of romantic relationships, politics and sex by trying to analyse them based on the behaviors observed in primates. I don't know what to say with that ?  Except kindly reminding that I'm not a primate ... Honestly PerC is the only society I'm in where the idea of alpha male is given free reign - and the only consequence I see the concept having is some men self-harming themselves by taking it too seriously. I couldn't care less for the stereotypical alpha male myself. And the numerical prevalence you seem to mention seems more like an overmediatisation of the thing, not really telling of women's preferences, which can't really by modelized to easily.
> 
> @Dezir : I think you're really on into something with all the self-awareness you have about how you don't want to compromise your integrity, shielding the fact that you're someone with vulnerabilities as everyone and have a fake tough front. I've been in a relationship where I felt like I had to put an act all the time to meet the other person's expectations - this kind of thing doesn't even work, it just builds resentment.
> 
> ...


On further thought, I don't think confidence is that important. Because there are other things a lot more important than confidence in a relationship and to get a relationship.

I don't know why it's made such a big fuss about confidence, when according to studies the top 3 things women like are: high iq, signaling caring, high status. Probably because people who are confident also have other things going on in their lives, they have reasons to be confident for. We assume that when someone is confident they know what they are doing. We assume that when someone is confident they have things figured out. Or maybe it's just the Dunning-Krugger effect. Anyway, regardless of what's the case and for which particular person, there are more important things in dating and relationship than confidence.

Probably the biggest merit of confidence is that you need confidence to actually go out there are talk to women, but other than that, it's a good trait but not imperative. Just look at couples all around you, not all of them are made up of confident men, most of them are normal men having other qualities going for them, qualities that lead to closeness between the two, which is what I think matters. Because the way relationships work is first you like the presence of the other person, then you develop a deeper relationship.

I'm not denying that looks matter a lot. Character and personality matter but the first thing you see about a person are the looks. So no matter how overly idealistic some people try to be, they are actually wrong. Looks matter, that's why the vast majority of people take care of their looks and image. But for women I think the most important thing is the character, what is on the inside. This is why it's a bit tricky for women, they have to know the man a bit. Where as men on the other hand can judge looks almost instantly. This is why status is important for women, not because they all want money, but because status is a kind of proxy signal for character, what's on the inside. Women are looking for a kind of trip advisor dating, cause they need validation from some other source.

I think what most women actually want is clear high IQ, signaling caring and high status. Just like men, women want a comfortable and caring relationship too. For women, on average, the most important thing is the character, what is on the inside. Yes, status matters as well, but the same is true for men in a long-term relationship. Women are people with feelings, not robots looking for the strongest object to attach to, see them for what they really are, not for the stereotypes attached to them.

But a good character matters. Character is to treat people right, to take into account how other people feel. To have a good soul, want to help and appreciate what others do for you. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume girls with sensitivity like polite and respectful men with sensitivity and a gentle soul. Not bragger, not jerk, not with guts. Someone loving. To be a moral person, be a warm person, be a protector. The type of men who have a good soul, who appreciate what others do for them.

Courtesy is also important. To want to impress, to be agreeable, to be respectful, to have manners, to be nice. You can show manners by simply asking for permission, "can I come to your place?", "can I do that?", "can I do this?", "do you want me to do that?", it shows that you have initiative but take into account their desires. Or offer to do things for them without them actually asking, like taking the trash or doing the small things, that also counts as having manners. Of course, don't exaggerate with this, there are situations when you don't have to ask for permission, but having manners shows you have common sense and good education.

Showing sensitivity is attractive, like learning an instrument, looking at art, listening to opera, music about the soul like rap. Girls with sensitivity like men who show that they look beyond looks and appreciate the person they are, someone caring, with nice gestures that will impress, that they feel good with and show that they want the best for them, they want someone who would help and value them, someone who would do a lot for them.

Your behavior matters, be aware how other people react to your behavior. The way you behave matters a lot. People will not always tell you on the face when you've upset them, it's up to you to figure it out. In life, you have to be sweet as a person, to appreciate and show appreciation. To be polite, to talk nicely to people, to talk sweet. With understanding, not with criticism. Not like a beggar but in a sweet way, have some dignity but also show appreciations for people who do good things for you. To be aware of what people need and respect their desires.

The media gives a lot of attention to girls who like bad boys or alpha males. Just like not all men want a superficial woman like Kim Kardashian, not all women want a superficial man like Kanye West. And even the bad boys, they are not behaving badly with the woman they want to hook up with but with other people around them. That's not to say that you shouldn't have a backbone, you need some dignity.

This is probably the single most important thing one can take from confidence, and probably what gets confused with confidence - You need some dignity. You need to have a backbone. So that you're not with the head in the clouds over women. If they tell you to jump on one leg, you will not jump on one leg. If you don't have some dignity you become a wuss and unattractive. But you don't have to be an all confidence man to be attractive, you don't have to jump between the extremes.

Or maybe this is not about traditional confidence, as in looking and behaving like an alpha male but about social confidence, having confidence in social situations. If that's the case, I believe those who brand this "be confidence, waaagh" thing should have been a lot more specific. In my opinion, if you're not looking for one night stands with shallow women, that's not only bad but it backfires, you can have a lot more chances simply doing nothing and being as plain as possible than trying to play the alpha male card.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Dezir said:


> As the title says, I'm uncertain about how important confidence is, how important really is confidence in men?
> 
> Like I can be confident, but I don't really like it, I don't really feel good that way, it feels that it doesn't represent me, and I don't want to abandon that. It feels like it goes against my natural inclinations and I have to pick, between going for my natural inclinations or going for what would be most desireable, and I don't like to pick.
> 
> ...


Are we talking about confidence, or arrogance? There's a difference. Being confident means you stand up, believe in yourself, are charming, polite, and generally have a good attitude. 
It does not mean that you are a cocky, aggressive, selfish, asshole.


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## Ewok City (Sep 21, 2020)

Allostasis said:


> I would rather be unattractive but true to myself.


This sums up confidence in one sentence.


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## JimT (May 31, 2010)

[deleted]


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## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

@Dezir
If you talk so much about "what they like" I wonder how much you will talk when you discover that in fact they like what they like in certain quantities / doses, in certain moments, in certain contexts and in certain forms. All differing from person to person.

It's not just about what they want, but when and how. These are things that are learned through experience. Not by thinking, analyzing or reading.
1 experience beats 100 thoughts.


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

impulsenine said:


> 1 experience beats 100 thoughts.


Wait- we actually have to have an experience and not just thoughts?

Forget this. 

😒


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## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

littlewyng said:


> Wait- we actually have to have an experience and not just thoughts?
> 
> Forget this.
> 
> 😒


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## littlewyng (Sep 17, 2020)

Um, I've had full on relationships in my head, thank you very much, and I'm always super confident there. Psh, experience. Whatever.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

I know it sounds cliche when people say "just be yourself", but I think the right kind of confidence is the kind of confidence that stems from the fact that someone is going to love you, the way you are, so you shouldn't try to conform to some arbitrary standard and force yourself to be something you're not.
The most attractive kind of confidence is when you can say "I am who I am. Love me or leave me." It doesn't matter if you're the "alpha male" type or a bit quiet, shy, and mousy, a huge nerd or geek, or whatever you are: just own it.
My husband is a supernerd, and I found it attractive that, despite the fact that he can be incredibly introverted, he's confident in the sense that he asserts his opinions, is absolutely unapologetic about his disposition, and doesn't really care what most people think about him.
Those qualities are universally attractive.


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## Ssenptni (Mar 26, 2021)

You probably don't want to lead with "I'm uncertain", nor quote Einstein.


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## 8080 (Oct 6, 2020)

I am a lavatory attendant who works at FSB headquarters; a fortnight ago I met Sasha, who is the director. Now I am drawing up my next six-month plan, and I am wondering if I should choose him or my former coworker who sent me this photo of her new apartment building. I have always got on brilliantly with Sveta, though she cannot help making fun of poetry at every opportunity. That is why she does not know that I have already published many poems in magazines, and that my first book was published a month ago by a small publishing house, while Sasha has already enthusiastically congratulated his “poetic gazelle” on it. He does not need a housekeeper, he said, but a poetess, because his staff are the opposite of poetic. I think Sveta is just too dominant and too down-to-earth for me, which gets on my nerves easily outside the bed.

Sasha has enough subordinates on whom he can exercise his dominance if he feels a need to do so, and he will be grateful to receive my humble orders. For example, I would love to ride a giraffe one day. I know that giraffes smell terrible and that it will not be easy to ride them, but it is worth a try. How about a medium-sized and semi-tamed giraffe that a stuntman would ride first, attached to ropes in a film studio? I guess Sasha could make that happen. Not that it really matters, but just the thought of the possibility is important to me, and Sasha seems to be more experimentally inclined than Sveta. At home I would have my peace, since Sasha cannot just stay at home and devote himself to the bottle. So I just have to choose between Sasha and other local candidates, which are not available at the moment. Sasha already knows that I am also sexually attracted to women. “Then we have something else in common,” he said, and we immediately started talking about the kind of women whose magnetic attraction we cannot resist.

How did we meet? He saw me, he approached me immediately, and after three sentences we were already talking about poetry. Then I followed him to his office, which was not shabby, and we talked about poetry for an hour. The phone rang and he had to sign something every now and then, but that did not bother us. Sasha also offered me something to eat, which turned out to be superb. That reminded me of Sveta, who had always prided herself on being an omnivore. Come to think of it, it was silly of me to even consider her for my six-month plan. What else do I like about Sasha? So far he has spared me all the kitsch that men try to use on women, which makes me feel optimistic.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

If you are excited by someone, enjoy their company and feel this energy is reciprocated, everything will fall into place and confidence becomes irrelevant.

Issues are more...finding someone who is interested to talk to you, has ideas of their own to share and is willing to reciprocate your enthusiasm and push things forward. Pretty much everyone around me has their head down in a book or is wearing headphones, and makes little or no eye contact. So even when a conversation does start, I'm the one who does all of the work. Non-responses are discouraging, make me resent them and lose interest very very fast.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

dulcinea said:


> I know it sounds cliche when people say "just be yourself", but I think the right kind of confidence is the kind of confidence that stems from the fact that someone is going to love you, the way you are, so you shouldn't try to conform to some arbitrary standard and force yourself to be something you're not.
> The most attractive kind of confidence is when you can say "I am who I am. Love me or leave me." It doesn't matter if you're the "alpha male" type or a bit quiet, shy, and mousy, a huge nerd or geek, or whatever you are: just own it.
> My husband is a supernerd, and I found it attractive that, despite the fact that he can be incredibly introverted, he's confident in the sense that he asserts his opinions, is absolutely unapologetic about his disposition, and doesn't really care what most people think about him.
> Those qualities are universally attractive.


I have mixed feelings about "be yourself" or "whoever loves me loves me the way I am". What if you're fat, ugly, broke and with no life ambitions? You are being yourself and whoever loves you will love you the way you are, but chances are not many people are going to love you for you are not such a good offer. You don't have that many things to offer.

Or what if not in terms of physical appearance but personality this "be yourself" is utterly dislikeable? I think everyone can think of at least one person who is utterly dislikeable: brags a lot about everything, is a jerk who doesn't care how his words and behavior would make other people feel, complains about everything and always has a downer attitude, or other things you can think about. Or simply someone who can't hold a conversation, who is at a loss for words and doesn't know what to talk about. I don't judge people based on that myself, because I understand that someone is bragging because deep down he feels unappreciated, or is a jerk because has some hurt in his life, or his negative attitude is something learned.

But when it comes to a relationship, people are going to want someone with a fair amount of modesty and humility, someone who is both fun and caring, able to have fun and talk about non-serious things but also have serious discussions about life, big talk, what is going on in this world or being open to talk about what bothers them or personal problems, being able to relate. Being able to be open and vulnerable with each other, to create a relation of trust. But also to have a positive attitude that would lift people up, that creates good vibes around us. To have a friendly attitude that charges others with a positive energy, to make other people feel pleasant around you.

As for conversation, you got to start with small talk about various personal stuff or otherwise: weather, how is the other person doing, what have they done recently, school or work, movies, music, dream job, or simply look around and talk about the next thing you see, share your opinion about that or ask her what is hers, ask her various personal stuff about school, work, friends, opinion on current events and find her interests. Small talk helps you to become more familiar with one another, to get to know each other a bit. You can't just jump right away to big talk like "what do you think the meaning of life is?". Small talk is something that's inevitable that has a transition into big talk. Of course, too much small talk can make the discussion feel boring or robotic, which is why having a likeable personality implies making a fun and pleasant conversation with that person revolved around laughing with each other, talking about interesting stuff you both enjoy, first by asking her about her interests and talking about them until you find a match, and when you find a match of interests talk about them.

You can't just "be yourself" because there are things demanding of you. It's like a job interview except with people, what do you have to offer that would make the other person want to be in a relationship with you? asking her about herself then about her interests and talk to her about her interests, being a fun presence, making her laugh and smile, you can make jokes about various things and even about herself as long as you keep them light. It's the equivalent of saying "what do I need to say in my CV? just be yourself". Depending on who you are, it may or may not work, that doesn't mean you can't improve your CV or make it more impressive.

And it's not only limited to yourself. Things like your social standing, your image and reputation matter. How you see yourself also matters and how colorful is your personality, whether you are happy and energetic and silly, because we tend to radiate these qualities and influence the mood of other people. People also look at character, what is on the inside. And for that, you have to get to know the person a bit but status also helps in this case. Because status is a kind of proxy signal for character, what's on the inside. Status a kind of trip advisor dating, they offer validation from an external source.

So this "be yourself" or "whoever loves me loves me the way I am" doesn't mean you should stop improving yourself or taking care of yourself. Depending on who you are, "be yourself" may work for some people but not work for other people". Be authentic, admit you are not perfect, don't be pushy, adjust to almost any situation.

At the same time, I understand the other side of the issue: You, just like everyone, are an individual that comes with the whole pack of good and bad. You should not stop improving yourself or should consider how your words and behavior would make other people feel admit your mistakes if you do something bad. You should pay attention to people when they speak, have self-control when you're feeling angry or stressed, avoid words or actions that could cause conflict, be tolerant enough not to overreact when someone reacts badly and be grateful to people who do good things to you. But at the same time, you can't be perfect, nobody is perfect, and you can't be high and happy all the time, nobody is, of course this doesn't mean you should be sad on your first conversation or the first time you take the initative to talk to someone, but whoever likes you has to like the whole you with good and bad, otherwise they don't like you, they only like the good part. I can understand "be yourself" in this limited sense of "be authentic, don't pretend to be something you're not and expect people to like and dislike the whole you" but not in the sense of "all I have to do is be myself and I will never have to work on myself".

People look forward to enjoyable conversations, not just any kind of conversations, which implies talking about interesting things, open-ended discussions, storytelling about something funny and such, but also things like making fun of each other like teasing or nagging. Boys to boys is fair game, you can make fun of almost anything. But in boys to girls the humour has to be respectful, shooting with blind bullets. Making fun of someone has to be a bit cutting or spicy, it has to imply a negative trait, but at the same time it should not represent anything. It has to be something that is clearly false: "look, even animals run away from you", "don't worry about failing in life, you can always work as a janitor". Or if they are right about something: "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while", "you are such a backstabber, I expected more from you" or "I knew I shouldn't trust you" with the light tonality that gives it away that it's a joke. Or use their own words against them, change the narrative. When someone challenges you, you need to learn to give good replies so that you win the talk fight, to have good comebacks.

You don't have to be a brute, yes, you have to be strong and show that you can stand up for yourself when appropiate, that you have your own dignity and self-respect, but at the same time the diplomacy and wisdom not to fight unnecessary battles. For example: don't jump into a traffic fight, it's just stupid. Or if someone makes you uncomfortable, let's assume your neighbour listens to loud music and you can't sleep, the best thing to do first is to assume he has no idea about this and simply tell him, seek a diplomatic solution first, maybe there's a misunderstanding, talk to him nicely but talk, take action, if there's an argument win the talk fight with arguments in a reasonable manner, use the way he makes you feel or how he bothers other people, expect him to be reasonable, if he isn't, still don't jump to a fight, just threaten that you will call the police if he won't stop, and if he really doesn't, then call the police. Dignity means to believe you are worthy of respect, be amiable but not humble. Self-respect means that you care about you and don't allow other people to disrespect you. Having dignity and self-respect is not about being aggressive, as in making life miserable for other people when uncalled for, but the opposite, taking action when others try to make life miserable for you, even if you lose, at least you stood up for yourself and didn't allow yourself to be treated like dirt. And that is attractive, because a man who can defend himself is attractive.

You may or many not have these things depending on various factors such as genetics and enviroment. For people with a lot of qualities, it's easy to say "be yourself" because being themselves obviously works for them. But what about everyone else? you have to say "develop yourself", "grow as a person" and maybe then you can say "be yourself".


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

Confidence is more important than being attractive. You’ll attract someone who likes you for you instead of attracting someone who likes the image you’re portraying.

Besides, if they don’t like you, who cares? It’s their fault. Don’t play games and expect them to go well.


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

littlewyng said:


> Wait- we actually have to have an experience and not just thoughts?
> 
> Forget this.
> 
> 😒


Doesn’t that disqualify 90% of inf Se users


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

Dezir said:


> I have mixed feelings about "be yourself" or "whoever loves me loves me the way I am". What if you're fat, ugly, broke and with no life ambitions? You are being yourself and whoever loves you will love you the way you are, but chances are not many people are going to love you for you are not such a good offer. You don't have that many things to offer.
> 
> Or what if not in terms of physical appearance but personality this "be yourself" is utterly dislikeable? I think everyone can think of at least one person who is utterly dislikeable: brags a lot about everything, is a jerk who doesn't care how his words and behavior would make other people feel, complains about everything and always has a downer attitude, or other things you can think about. Or simply someone who can't hold a conversation, who is at a loss for words and doesn't know what to talk about. I don't judge people based on that myself, because I understand that someone is bragging because deep down he feels unappreciated, or is a jerk because has some hurt in his life, or his negative attitude is something learned.
> 
> ...


You miss the point.

A person who likes you for you won’t care if you’re fat, ugly, or broke.

If it’s a personality trait that’s unhealthy then yes, fix it for the sake of your significant other (and yourself). If it’s part of who you are, however, you shouldn’t be changing that for someone else.

If you want to fix _anything_ about yourself it should primarily be _for_ yourself - not for the sake of other’s gratification.


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

Meliodas said:


> If you are excited by someone, enjoy their company and feel this energy is reciprocated, everything will fall into place and confidence becomes irrelevant.
> 
> Issues are more...finding someone who is interested to talk to you, has ideas of their own to share and is willing to reciprocate your enthusiasm and push things forward. Pretty much everyone around me has their head down in a book or is wearing headphones, and makes little or no eye contact. So even when a conversation does start, I'm the one who does all of the work. Non-responses are discouraging, make me resent them and lose interest very very fast.


Everyone these days is in an intimate relationship with their cell phone.

Also, that’s kind of depressing. I’ve dealt with similar situations, in which the issue was also that they couldn’t understand what I was saying. The way to my heart is apparently through my mind.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

mino said:


> You miss the point.
> 
> A person who likes you for you won’t care if you’re fat, ugly, or broke.
> 
> ...


I disagree. We love certain people because they have certain qualities that make us feel good around them, either in how they make you feel in the moment or the values you exhibit, even when we are not aware of those things. It can grow into care for that other person, as in love, but initially we care about looks, then character and personality.

The first thing you see about a person and are attracted about is looks. Other things matter, such as how colorful is your personality, whether you are happy and energetic and silly, how willing you are to be honest about your interests and tastes, being romantic and caring, etc.

A good character matters. Depending on the kind of women you want to date, it's important not to come across to a girl you are interested in as an ahole. Either inconsiderate towards her or towards others. Character is to treat people right, to be considerate about the way they feel. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume women with sensitivity like polite and respectful men with sensitivity and a gentle soul. Someone loving. The type of men who have a good soul, appreciate what others do for them. The type of men who would feel mercy for a stray cat. The type of men who think not only about themselves but also considerate how they actions hurt those around them, men who are not selfish, offer to help and are fair with those around them.

Of course, having a good character don't mean you can't have other qualities such as guts, initiative, confidence and dignity but you don't have to be a brute to have those qualities. This doesn't mean he cannot become strong mentally and physically, I'm talking about not having aggressiveness in attitude, not about being defenseless.

Genuine love can happen only after you get to know the person and develop care for them. You can't love someone you don't know. That's either physical attraction or love at first sight which is an illusion.

We don't love until we have developed a deeper bond with the other person, initially, we only like another person, for reasons such as looks, then character and personality.

Love at first sight, while amazing, is not a good indicator of who you are compatible with. You can have an amazing love at first sight moment and when you actually get into relationship find out you're not exactly compatible with one another.

It's easy to have that perspective when you get gratification. But when you don't get gratification, regardless of form, in this case being romantic gratification, a lot of people try to change exactly to get romantic gratification. In a way, it's for themselves, because they want it, romantic love is inherently a selfish feeling, we love people because we feel great around them. So when you want to fix something about yourself to be more romantically attractive, you are essentially fixing something about yourself primarily for yourself.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

mino said:


> Everyone these days is in an intimate relationship with their cell phone.
> 
> Tech is a great servant but a poor master. I make a conscious effort to go analog when there's an alternative.
> 
> Also, that’s kind of depressing. I’ve dealt with similar situations, in which the issue was also that they couldn’t understand what I was saying. The way to my heart is apparently through my mind.


I live in a highly introverted, passive and emotionally repressed culture. You cannot cold approach people in New Zealand because they've got a massive barrier up, always move in groups, and most will refuse to discuss anything with you beyond the weather, food, what they do for work and sport. Like cattle, they live entirely in the moment, so they lack any curiosity or imagination and are terrible at forecasting. A cultured, intelligent man like myself reminds New Zealanders of their mediocrity, so I'm a threat and need to be shunned, exiled from the village. Your success, in business as well as romance, is entirely dependent on being qualified and approved by the clique that person belongs to. There are some exceptions to this rule, but they're usually expatriates who've moved from a more vibrant culture. All the girls who've shown sexual interest in me are foreigners.

As soon as I've completed my degree, I am going to leave, probably for Italy, Austria or Hungary, and I won't ever come back. While New Zealand might be an attractive country to visit on holiday, it is a dull and miserable place to live.


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

Dezir said:


> I disagree. We love certain people because they have certain qualities that make us feel good around them, either in how they make you feel in the moment or the values you exhibit, even when we are not aware of those things. It can grow into care for that other person, as in love, but initially we care about looks, then character and personality.
> 
> The first thing you see about a person and are attracted about is looks. Other things matter, such as how colorful is your personality, whether you are happy and energetic and silly, how willing you are to be honest about your interests and tastes, being romantic and caring, etc.
> 
> ...


Um, I never disagreed with any of your points.

All I’m saying is that you shouldn’t use it as an excuse to change who you are (especially if the things you’re trying to change about yourself are menial). Change isn’t for someone else.

I think you’re basing a lot of this on conventional attractiveness/qualities that people look for - which is fine, if you want to be ‘everyone’s type.’ Even so, the conventional ideal is a fallacy.

Other than that I do agree with what you’re saying. Just don’t change things about yourself solely for the sake of getting people interested in you.


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

Meliodas said:


> I live in a highly introverted, passive and emotionally repressed culture. You cannot cold approach people in New Zealand because they've got a massive barrier up, always move in groups, and most will refuse to discuss anything with you beyond the weather, food, what they do for work and sport. Like cattle, they live entirely in the moment, so they lack any curiosity or imagination and are terrible at forecasting. A cultured, intelligent man like myself reminds New Zealanders of their mediocrity, so I'm a threat and need to be shunned, exiled from the village. Your success, in business as well as romance, is entirely dependent on being qualified and approved by the clique that person belongs to. There are some exceptions to this rule, but they're usually expatriates who've moved from a more vibrant culture. All the girls who've shown sexual interest in me are foreigners.
> 
> As soon as I've completed my degree, I am going to leave, probably for Italy, Austria or Hungary, and I won't ever come back. While New Zealand might be an attractive country to visit on holiday, it is a dull and miserable place to live.


It sounds miserable.
Its the same where I am, only people are also overly emotional. God forbid you tell them the truth about themselves, it’s _offensive._

You’d probably love Italy, knowing you. Sounds right up your alley.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

mino said:


> It sounds miserable.
> Its the same where I am, only people are also overly emotional. God forbid you tell them the truth about themselves, it’s _offensive._
> 
> You’d probably love Italy, knowing you. Sounds right up your alley.


I have Italian classes which start in a fortnight. My aim is to become fluent in two years and then begin to learn Latin, and Greek after that.

I have visited Italy several times in the past. What I liked most about the country was the sense of humor people have, as well as their hospitality and emotional honesty.


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

Meliodas said:


> I have Italian classes which start in a fortnight. My aim is to become fluent in two years and then begin to learn Latin, and Greek after that.
> 
> I have visited Italy several times in the past. What I liked most about the country was the sense of humor people have, as well as their hospitality and emotional honesty.


You must love me then. I’m Italian.


That was a joke. A very, very bad joke.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

mino said:


> You must love me then. I’m Italian.
> 
> That was a joke. A very, very bad joke.


I am flattered to receive such a heartfelt confession, and I accept your love without any reserve. May our union be fecund, joyous and endure as proudly as a hunk of mature gorgonzola cheese.


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

Meliodas said:


> I am flattered to receive such a heartfelt confession, and I accept your love without any reserve. May our union be fecund, joyous and endure as proudly as a hunk of mature gorgonzola cheese.


Due to being tired, the only response I can think of is “Mamma Mia”


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## TheUnnecessaryEvil (Mar 28, 2021)

Confidence is a multiplier of the attractiveness you already possess.. mostly via looks. 

If you're already attractive (aka have a positive attractiveness rating) confidence will make it skyrocket.

If you're conventionally unattractive, (aka have a negative rating) confidence will just make the problem worse.

Ever notice that confident yet unattractive men in women's YA media are almost unilaterally portrayed as bad people?


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

TheUnnecessaryEvil said:


> Confidence is a multiplier of the attractiveness you already possess.. mostly via looks.
> 
> If you're already attractive (aka have a positive attractiveness rating) confidence will make it skyrocket.
> 
> ...


The criteria that women list for an acceptable mate are often so extensive that no man alive would meet all of them - and yet, the majority of women are in some kind of sexual relationship with a man. I live in the middle of a big city and examined nearly a thousand couples over the course of the day. Many of the men I saw with a girlfriend/wife had unaesthetic facial features and were overweight, scrawny, nerdy, poorly dressed or some combination of these. Many expressed submissive and/or anxious body language as well. Therefore, I don't see much evidence for the claim that only Chad/meathead types of men can get laid, or the claim that "confidence" is somehow this magical gift that will make every woman fall in love with you.

So what really does matter to women?

Of all the factors I've considered, probably the most important one is social proof. Social proof is the idea that we are influenced by what other people think is valuable or not, and women tend to be far more suggestible than men are in this regard. For example, if a man is engaged in conversation with a woman, other men are less likely to consider approaching that woman. However, women who observe the happy couple frequently have the opposite reaction. This poses an immediate problem for those men who, for whatever reason, don't have a lot of friends or fit in well with their community. I am one of these men. The main reason why is that the majority of women (and men, for that matter) where I live have an incurious, rather bovine nature, so there is little they have to say that could make me excited and feel a desire for them. My interests are quite cerebral and cultivated, and sadly, this makes it very difficult for me to make friends of either sex offline.

The irony is that if women actually behaved in the way redpill/incel types say that they do, I'd likely benefit: after all, I'm over 6ft tall and in good physical shape. I have Nordic facial features, no outstanding debt and a nice apartment in an expensive part of the city. I also have a provocative, intense and creative personality....and yet, I'm single.

So if I had any advice for men who are single, it wouldn't be to hit the gym or learn seduction techniques but to change their environment. In my case, the plan is to forget about women for the next two years (unless a suitable girl lusts after me online  ) and leave New Zealand as soon as I graduate.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

mino said:


> Um, I never disagreed with any of your points.
> 
> All I’m saying is that you shouldn’t use it as an excuse to change who you are (especially if the things you’re trying to change about yourself are menial). Change isn’t for someone else.
> 
> ...


Who are you? If we don't have a clear definition of "who you are" then how can we know when you do/don't change who you are? 

Love is an inherently selfish feeling, there's nothing wrong with that and it's normal. You don't love someone because you're doing them a favor, you love them because you, yourself, are loving them, and you feel good when you love them, they make you feel good, and you want to do some thing with them, like hug them and talk to them and walk to them and be with them. There's no charity or selflessness in this, you love them because you love them, it's a trade if you wish to see it that way, we both trade qualities and feeling good with one another.

If you think love being selfish is bad, imagine what would it mean for love not to be selfish. Imagine what would mean for a woman to tell a man _"I don't love you, but because you love me and I pity you I will marry you, I'm no doing it for me, I'm doing it for you"_ or genders-revered, it's kind of gorss and I think 99% of people would say _"you don't have to marry him just because you pity him"_.

The point is, those changes I listed aren't for someone else, they are for you. Because you want that girl/boy, so you change yourself to get that girl/boy, because you want it. It's no different from being a lazy person but wanting a promotion, so you change yourself to get a promotion.

You can change for yourself in many ways. It may be new year's eve and you tell yourself that your new year resolution is to: get good, to impress yourself.

Start working out and stay constant.
Stop eating a lot and bad stuff, especially at night.
Start learning something you always wanted to learn.
Start studying more and getting good grades.
Find a job and make something for you in life.
That's a very traditional way to put changing yourself.

Or maybe, it's not about behavior but about the mind. Similar, it's year's eve and you tell yourself that your new year resolution is to:

Think positive, not unrealistic but positive.
Have a good character with sensitivity.
Be polite and respectful even when you are right.
Don't always follow the pressure from other people, make your own choices.
Take opportunities in life, better go for it, try and fail, than not go for it and regret it.
Be more lighthearted and fun.
It's another way of changing yourself.

At the end of the day, all change yourself has 1 goal -> to be happy. You need to change yourself, to adapt to the circumstances or to improve yourself as a person in order to be happy.

You never change for someone else, even when it comes to dating, you change for yourself.


Meliodas said:


> The criteria that women list for an acceptable mate are often so extensive that no man alive would meet all of them - and yet, the majority of women are in some kind of sexual relationship with a man. I live in the middle of a big city and examined nearly a thousand couples over the course of the day. Many of the men I saw with a girlfriend/wife had unaesthetic facial features and were overweight, scrawny, nerdy, poorly dressed or some combination of these. Many expressed submissive and/or anxious body language as well. Therefore, I don't see much evidence for the claim that only Chad/meathead types of men can get laid, or the claim that "confidence" is somehow this magical gift that will make every woman fall in love with you.
> 
> So what really does matter to women?
> 
> ...


Social proof, that's a fair point. Social proof is certainly a big one, but as you said, the list is long.
I would actually have the opposite advice for men who are single: hit the gym, learn seduction techniques, get dating experience, don't change your environment because that won't change yourself. You will be the same person in city B that you were in city A.

Confidence is masculinity. Do you really need to show off masculinity? I think not, you don't have to be a strong man but a good partner. Not a good man but a good human.

This idea of masculinity makes us pretend to be strong when we feel weak, confident when we feel insecure and though when really you feel hurt. In the name of masculinity we put out a show, we perform. It is exhausting trying to be man enough all the time.

As a boy all we want is to be liked and accepted by other boys, but that meant that we had to acquire this this rejecting view of the feminine. And since the feminine is the opposite of the masculine, you either had to reject those qualities or face rejection.

This is the script: girls are weak and boys are strong. This is wrong, this is toxic. But you don't need to fit into the current broken definition of masculinity, because you don't have to be a good man but a good human. The way that could happen is to embrace the qualities that we are told are feminine in ourselves, the qualities that we are told lack masculinity and make you look weak.

We don't have to stop being men, but we need balance. There are men who would rather die than tell another man that he feels hurt. Not because we're all the strong silent type. Men are really good at making friends and talking, just not about anything real. When it's: work, sports, politics or women; men have no problem sharing their opinion. But if it's about insecurities or struggles, fear of failure; men are paralized.

One way to break free of this pattern of behavior of ideal masculinity, is by creating experiences that force you to be vulnerable. If you experience shame in your life, practice diving straight into it, not matter how scary it is.

Because in doing so, you take away its power, and your display of vulnerability can in some cases inspire other men to do the same. Men are afraid of being vulnerable because they are afraid of being judged and be seen as weak and you would lose their standing. But if you actually talk to someone about what you are going through, you may realize that you aren't alone, because other people have also been struggling, as soon as you find the strength and courage to share your shame, it's gone.

Even love or the expression of love is seen as weakness in a man, lack of masculinity. For men, feelings and love and displays of affinity are mocked. Men can be social and smile and laugh, but men are afraid of articulating in words how they feel inside. Because they have to appear men, masculine. This is why men sometimes scorf at public articulation of ones inherently personal feelings and relations. Publicly, playing thier role, rejecting the feminine. But secretly, waiting for permission to express themselves, to be seen, to be heard.

Because of masculinity, growing up we have to challenge each other, we have to be the thoughest, the strongest, the bravest men that we can be. Our identities are wrapped up in whether or not at the end of the day we feel that we're "men enough". But can you use the same qualities that make you feel you're a man, to go deeper into yourself? Your strength, your bravery, your thoughness. Can we use them to explore our hearts? Are you brave enough to be vulnerable? to reach out to another man when you need help? to dive headfirst into your shame? Are you strong enough to be sensitive? to cry whether you are hurting or you're happy? even if it makes you look weak?

"The world of hummanity is possesed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength they will not fly" - Abdu'l-Baha.

Instead of teaching our children to be brave boys and pretty girls, can we maybe just teach them how to be good humans?

Big boys don't cry. Mann up. Shut up and throw some dirt on it. Stop crying before I give you something to cry about. This is just a few of the phrases that contribute to a disease in our society, and more specifically in our men. But there is a solution to this epidemic, the solution is a mixture of elements, it begins with a willingness to look at your belief system and how out of alignment it is and how your actions negatively impact not just yourself but the people around you.

The next ingredient is a willingness to be vulnerable with people, who would not just support you but hold you accountable. Challenging structural ways of thinking. I think the way that I think, and I act the way that I act, because I never questioned that.

If you don't question the way you think and act, you'll just go along with the crowd. Why do I think the way that I think? Why do I act the way that I act? Because when I get down to it I'm not thinking, I'm not being an individual, I'm not taking responsability for who I am and what it is I put into this world.

It is partially because of this idea of masculinity, that the seeds are sown for a long career of hurting others. Be it physical, mental or emotional. The belief that going forward in life, if a situation presented itself where someone is going to get hurt, you would be the one doing the hurting. There's also the belief that loving puts you in harm's way. The belief that caring about another person makes you weak. So not caring, must equal strength. The greatest way to mask a shaky sense of self is to hide behind a false air of respect.

Experience emotions in a safe way. Show you're being vulnerable. Show you don't have all the answers. Being a man is not some machismo charicature and the characteristics usually defined as weaknesses are parts of a whole healthy man. Emotional illiteracy and groupthink allows men to continue to victimize others as well as themselves.


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## Astrida88 (Jun 6, 2019)

If you don't fit the stereotypes look for a gil that doesn't fit them either. You don't really have to play the game.

Confidence is important, but confidence isn't dominance. It's simply accepting who you are and not being afraid to be you.

But even if you are not confident there are girls out there who like that. The mother/nurse archetype. For them relationships are always a struggle but they are inclined to look for that type of men and can't stop because it's addictive.

Same with dominance. Believe or not there are dominant woman in there who actually hate dominant men. I am one of them. I don't want to be looked down on, I want to have the last world and I want to have the active role. I like guys shorter than me or same height. And I get totally turned off when a guy is trying to play macho in my presence.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Rainbowrama said:


> As a woman I can say that the ‘macho man’ stereotype is really a big turn off, at least to me. Such men are cut off from their emotions and true core, so they are lacking something essential for me to find them attractive. There is a common misconception that those ‘alpha’ male are strong and desirable, when it’s not necessarily true and can be the total opposite even. Real strength has nothing to do with being aggressive, not even assertive. Also, a sensitive man is not at all necessarily weak.


I agree. Big dick energy is unappealing and screams low confidence imo Usually- the macho man persona is because they care too much about what everyone else thinks (nine times out of ten- it is people that do not matter anyway) instead of thinking for theirself. Or they were not raised with the proper foundation and were/are surrounded by people of low quality/character. A blend of hard (when they need to be)/soft (when they need to be) is very attractive. If that makes any sense. Being a good person is super attractive. That is a key component of confidence if- I had to list just one.


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

ENIGMA2019 said:


> I agree. Big dick energy is unappealing and screams low confidence imo Usually- the macho man persona is because they care too much about what everyone else thinks (nine times out of ten- it is people that do not matter anyway) instead of thinking for theirself. Or they were not raised with the proper foundation and were/are surrounded by people of low quality/character. A blend of hard (when they need to be)/soft (when they need to be) is very attractive. If that makes any sense. Being a good person is super attractive. That is a key component of confidence if- I had to list just one.


Being a good person is indeed SUPER hot!


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think it matters but:

I try to check for signs of nervousness in someone who approaches me--like not like they seem paranoid or whatever, but just anything that might indicate they are concerned about how I might view them.

This is in hope that I will be able to sift out the people who are overly confident--because if someone isn't nervous at all they likely have no emotional investment or concern (so they don't care how I feel or what I think about their behavior), or they may be a narcissist or a psychopath. 

I get really nervous around people I like if I don't know them well--if someone doesn't seem nervous _at all_ then that doesn't seem reciprocal.

This isn't instinctive though--it's something I've decided to pay attention to because it makes sense, rationally.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

Sondheim said it best.

What attracted me to my husband was his quiet confidence, and the fact that he was a decent and genuinely good person.
Most of the time in your face arrogance and bravado comes from a place of insecurities that we can smell a mile away.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Rainbowrama said:


> Being a good person is indeed SUPER hot!


It is an A++++ imo Just like there is a difference in being a dick and having a dick (maybe even a big one) _devilish grin_


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Dezir said:


> Social proof, that's a fair point. Social proof is certainly a big one, but as you said, the list is long.
> I would actually have the opposite advice for men who are single: hit the gym, learn seduction techniques, get dating experience, don't change your environment because that won't change yourself. You will be the same person in city B that you were in city A.


Each environment has its own culture and selective pressures, so while you may be the same person in both places, the reactions you receive are likely to differ significantly.



Dezir said:


> Confidence is masculinity. Do you really need to show off masculinity? I think not, you don't have to be a strong man but a good partner. Not a good man but a good human.


I agree that aggression is not the same as confidence. Confidence is not reactive but comes naturally when you enjoy someone's company and feel stimulated by them. If you have to "fake it" or "show off", you probably don't have much chemistry with the other person and should move on.



Dezir said:


> This idea of masculinity makes us pretend to be strong when we feel weak, confident when we feel insecure and though when really you feel hurt. In the name of masculinity we put out a show, we perform. It is exhausting trying to be man enough all the time.


You don't have to follow the perceptions of masculinity portrayed in Hollywood. I agree that too much emphasis is placed on physicality at the expense of other factors such as rationality, creativity and good taste. But that's American culture for you: garish, materialistic and anti-intellectual. There are many other pathways to manhood which we can study and emulate. You might find this video intriguing: 




I for example express a combination of the Hephaestus and Hermes archetypes.



Dezir said:


> As a boy all we want is to be liked and accepted by other boys, but that meant that we had to acquire this this rejecting view of the feminine. And since the feminine is the opposite of the masculine, you either had to reject those qualities or face rejection.


I never cared much about being accepted by my peers, because few of them had something to offer that I needed or desired.



Dezir said:


> This is the script: girls are weak and boys are strong. This is wrong, this is toxic. But you don't need to fit into the current broken definition of masculinity, because you don't have to be a good man but a good human. The way that could happen is to embrace the qualities that we are told are feminine in ourselves, the qualities that we are told lack masculinity and make you look weak.


As a result of our divorce epidemic, many young women have grown up without a positive masculine figure who could teach them emotional resilience. Therefore they take on the role of a child throughout life and express neonatal features: they increase the size of their eyes, remove all their body hair, put on a wavering, high-pitched voice and pretend to be in distress and helpless in the hope that this will attract a protective figure, the proverbial white knight. This phenomenon is also known as "damseling". For more information, go here (The Near-Irresistible Lure of Damseling).

I would stay away from adult women who behave this way unless you want a one-sided relationship where you do all of the work.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Dezir said:


> As the title says, I'm uncertain about how important confidence is, how important really is confidence in men?
> 
> Like I can be confident, but I don't really like it, I don't really feel good that way, it feels that it doesn't represent me, and I don't want to abandon that. It feels like it goes against my natural inclinations and I have to pick, between going for my natural inclinations or going for what would be most desireable, and I don't like to pick.
> 
> ...


There's no need to be an "Alpha type". Not all women need that, but confidence is kind of a must. Not many women want a weak willed or overly hesitant partner. (Maybe same goes for men.) I mean, it doesnt have to be overbearing confidence. Just the kind of confidence like you know who you are and what you want kind of confidence. If what you are is not confident, then maybe you need to work on your self esteem, physicality in order to feel confident, or character or whatever. Mind you this is a generalization. There are domineering women out there that probably are more like men are traditionally but they are most likely rare. As women are generally taught not to make the first move and to only respond to guys advances. They might give invitation though and if you are not confident you will likely not take action upon it. I think part of confidence is being able to handle rejection well as well.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> There's no need to be an "Alpha type". Not all women need that, but confidence is kind of a must. Not many women want a weak willed or overly hesitant partner. (Maybe same goes for men.) I mean, it doesnt have to be overbearing confidence. Just the kind of confidence like you know who you are and what you want kind of confidence. If what you are is not confident, then maybe you need to work on your self esteem, physicality in order to feel confident, or character or whatever. Mind you this is a generalization. There are domineering women out there that probably are more like men are traditionally but they are most likely rare. As women are generally taught not to make the first move and to only respond to guys advances. They might give invitation though and if you are not confident you will likely not take action upon it. I think part of confidence is being able to handle rejection well as well.


I agree that it is important for men to know who and what we want, and to express this directly. However, a truly powerful man knows that women will be attracted to him through his presence alone, and that a man who is always the first to initiate and push for more intimacy is in a psychologically inferior position. This is why I never chase women.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> I agree that it is important to know who and what you want. However, a truly confident and powerful man knows that women will be attracted to him through his presence alone, and that a man who is always the first to initiate and push for more intimacy is in a psychologically inferior position. This is why I never chase women.


well, id think pushing for emotional intimacy is a kind of open field regarding the sexes in the sense that there arent any rules about it. sexually though, women are chastized for lets just say "making moves on guys." slut whore, blah blah blah. where men are not. for them it's like considered "natural." it may put a man in an "inferior" position in the sense that they would be displaying vulnerability, which has long been deemed "unnacceptable" though I think that is slowly changing. men have a right to have feelings and of course i think it should be encouraged. it does put them though in that position giving power to the female to accept or not and then the lingering notion that they are some how being "effeminate' still lurking. as far as starting connections though i think it's still ultimately up to the man no matter how much money a woman makes or has. Just out of traditional programming.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> well, id think pushing for emotional intimacy is a kind of open field regarding the sexes in the sense that there arent any rules about it. sexually though, women are chastized for lets just say "making moves on guys." slut whore, blah blah blah. where men are not. for them it's like considered "natural." it may put a man in an "inferior" position in the sense that they would be displaying vulnerability, which has long been deemed "unnacceptable" though I think that is slowly changing. men have a right to have feelings and of course i think it should be encouraged. it does put them though in that position giving power to the female to accept or not and then the lingering notion that they are some how being "effeminate' still lurking. as far as starting connections though i think it's still ultimately up to the man no matter how much money a woman makes or has. Just out of traditional "imprinting." (Trying to think of a good way to state that sentiment.)


Women are not usually chastised by men for expressing overt sexual interest and making a move. This criticism comes almost entirely from other, more passive women who fear they'll lose any attention from men as a result.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> Women are not usually chastised by men for expressing overt sexual interest and making a move. This criticism comes almost entirely from other, more passive women who fear they'll lose any attention from men as a result.


i dont know what world you live in then lol


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> i dont know what world you live in then lol


The same one that you do


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> The same one that you do


Well, the guys I know are the worst offenders at this kind of negative judgmental attitude though the women may be. Idk. I dont talk to many women.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> Well, the guys I know are the worst offenders at this kind of negative judgmental attitude though the women may be. Idk. I dont talk to many women.


Men who think this way are often highly religious and tend to fetishise innocence in women to an unhealthy extent. I prefer a more decisive woman who is in touch with her body.

My view of women is similar to that of Classical Antiquity and has none of the sentimental moralism present in 1950s America.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Penny said:


> women are chastized for lets just say "making moves on guys." slut whore, blah blah blah. where men are not.


But in my experience as a man I've also been chastised for not making moves when I'm "supposed to". beta weakling social imbecile blah blah blah. where women are not.

Just saying..........


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Meliodas said:


> Each environment has its own culture and selective pressures, so while you may be the same person in both places, the reactions you receive are likely to differ significantly.
> 
> I agree that aggression is not the same as confidence. Confidence is not reactive but comes naturally when you enjoy someone's company and feel stimulated by them. If you have to "fake it" or "show off", you probably don't have much chemistry with the other person and should move on.
> 
> ...


Every enviroment has its own social norms, an expected behavior for people. This is the case no matter where you go. You got to be aware of the social norms and act accordingly. It's not the end of the world if you break a social norm or two, but generally, don't do it. At the same time, the best way to learn social norms is to go out there and experiment. Watch other people, and you will learn it.

This implies actually having to go out there and learn them. You may actually break some social norms while doing so, but it's a process of learning, so at the end of the day something good comes out of it. If you don't go out there you will never learn them, it's better to actually go out there and experiment and learn with the risk of making a few mistakes than never do and always wonder.

I have mixed feelings about the idea of "fake it" or "show off". Yes, don't try to fight against your own feelings. If you act one way outside but feel another way inside, that's generally not a good sign. Except in extreme cases, you are very sad and have to hold a presentation. And showing off, being a bragger is rarely a good sign. Often, people who brag come across as having shortcomings of their own to hide. Better to be modest and let the people appreciate you for who you are.

But, that doesn't mean you should not grown and develop your personality into one you would like to have. People can change, their personalities as well. If your personality doesn't help you, better change it into something better. Because you can also change it for the worse. Find out what you lack and how you can improve upon it.

I think masculinity has its merit. Girls are supposed to be weak and submissive, it's okay for girls to be that way, but not okay for boys/men to be that way. That doesn't mean jumping in the other extreme and be an ahole. But you should be able to have some dignity. To not sell yourself short. Yes, be respectful, but not too humble or desperate.

For example, if you did something bad, admit when you have done something bad, admit your wrongs, but don't apologize on the too humble or desperate side, you need some dignity, just say that you are sorry and promise you will make up for it.

Conflicts and arguments are bad, contradicition is not. If there's no contradiction, that means either only one person is thinking or only one of them is getting what they want. While yes, you should take into account how others feel, this doesn't mean they should never disagree.

Prefer peace, be soft-spoken and diplomatic, but also be comfortable with conflict. If you go into conflict, you must have a cause, a reason for winning. Such as talking with your boss to raise your wage. Don't go into a battle if you have nothing to gain from winning, like a traffic fight, it's just stupid.

If someone makes you uncomfortable, let's assume your neighbour listens to loud music and you can't sleep, the best thing to do first is to assume he has no idea about this and simply tell him, seek a diplomatic solution first, maybe there's a misunderstanding, if there's an argument win the talk fight with arguments in a reasonable manner, use the way he makes you feel or how he bothers other people, expect him to be reasonable, if he isn't, still don't jump to a fight, just threaten that you will call the police if he won't stop, and if he really doesn't, then call the police. If you show him that you're being weak and all talk, then he will keep doing that in the future as he knows he can get away with you.

In prison, there's an advice, if someone wants to fight you, fight, even if you get a beating at least you show you're not a pushover aka an easy target. So if someone wants to bully you he'll think twice because he knows you will fight back. I don't support fighting except when you literally have no other choice, but you can see how this principle applies to many areas of life, if you show you're a pushover, people are going to assume you're a pushover and push you over again.


Penny said:


> There's no need to be an "Alpha type". Not all women need that, but confidence is kind of a must. Not many women want a weak willed or overly hesitant partner. (Maybe same goes for men.) I mean, it doesnt have to be overbearing confidence. Just the kind of confidence like you know who you are and what you want kind of confidence. If what you are is not confident, then maybe you need to work on your self esteem, physicality in order to feel confident, or character or whatever. Mind you this is a generalization. There are domineering women out there that probably are more like men are traditionally but they are most likely rare. As women are generally taught not to make the first move and to only respond to guys advances. They might give invitation though and if you are not confident you will likely not take action upon it. I think part of confidence is being able to handle rejection well as well.


You can be an attractive man without being the confident type. A crying man may be seen as weak by other men. But a crying man can sensibilize women, gaining their sympathy. There are women with sensitivity who value a good soul, showing sensitivity, honesty about interests and tastes, having a positive attitude that would lift people up creating good vibes around us, sharing a secret and being a confidant, being romantic and intimate, as in being able to be yourself around them without fear of being judged, being interested in personal development, being tender and offering terribly specific gifts. I think the most accurate way to say it is: bad boys/alpha males get some girls. Because there are women who value romance and care. I'm not sure if I'm right, but this is what I think.

Discretion is the better part of valor. Appreciation. Look for people to appreciate you. That is what is important, to be appreciated by people. Please everyone, split yourself the best you can. Please everyone to a point, that point is when you have to suffer or lose.

You need to have a healthy dose of being true to yourself, as in being "genuine". Because otherwise you won't feel good about you, you won't feel comfortable. Of course, as mentioned, with some adjustments. To be yourself but in the limit of common sense, the default version that you can be without effort but without being a jerk.

Overstepping a boundary is sometimes good, although it can be a bit scary. It's a fine line with being a jerk but they command so much respect that most people overlook and forgive the jerk aspect. I guess it's good to have initiative, guts, but not the jerkish kind of initiative. Although generally, I think it's good not to overstepping a boundary and respect people's natural intimacy, wishes and desires, it's about being considerate. There is no such thing as overstepping a boundary but in the limit of common sense. If someone wasn't a jerk to you, you have no reason to be a jerk to them in return.


Ock said:


> But in my experience as a man I've also been chastised for not making moves when I'm "supposed to". beta weakling social imbecile blah blah blah. where women are not. Just saying..........


You need to go out there and talk to people. To be social, laugh, smile, know how to take a joke, make connections with people. It requires courage and initiative to go and talk to them with an attitude. An attitude that is not pushy but engaged and expecting good things.

If you ask a girl in a relationship, 90% of the times this is going to be the response:

Did you went to talk to him or he did?
He did.
Obviously, the boy/man has to be the one approaching the girl. The man has to take the initiative, to be "the better man" as one would say. Even if you barely know each other or have only heard of each other. Not necessarly to ask for a date, but for any kind of request or question or discussion. If you are refused, it happens, but if you do nothing, nothing happens.

Take opportunities in life. Just do it. In life, we regret more of what we didn't do than what we did. 

Seek to be interested in people, to develop relationships, to communicate, to get interested in advance about stuff from other people if they know about them. To call that person, call that other person. Text your friends to go out. Call them, ask them what they are doing, and ask them if they want to go out somewhere for a drink or some fun.

You need to take responsability for your life. It's you who will make you happy and not everyone else. You may think _"I can't do any of these because I feel terrible"_. It's exactly because you feel terrible that you have to do it.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

i don tthink being an Alpha type or non Alpha type has much to do with confidence. You can be a non alpha type and still be confident. to me alpha types are just more of a leader type while other types dont feel the need or have the desire to be the "leader" in a group. Alphas are just more dominant in a group. Some women do respond to dominance, but not all. We can look for other attributes as well. That kind of behavior turns some off as well.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

IMO, confidence is resilience and a willingness to fail without getting butt hurt. Also, comfort in their own skin.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Penny said:


> i don tthink being an Alpha type or non Alpha type has much to do with confidence. You can be a non alpha type and still be confident. to me alpha types are just more of a leader type while other types dont feel the need or have the desire to be the "leader" in a group. Alphas are just more dominant in a group. Some women do respond to dominance, but not all. We can look for other attributes as well. That kind of behavior turns some off as well.


Some traits that are generally considered "alpha" can be good, such as being a leader, a unifier, a mediator of conflicts and consoler-in-chief.

You can be attractive through strength, to have those manly looks, but also some behavior to match it up. Having confidence, being daring to go and talk to them or take initiative to ask them if they want to do certain things. But this needs to be balanced with kindness, being caring, helping them, being supportive and protective of them, being willing to talk about feelings. You can be strong and kind, strong and a protector rather than strong and a bully.

You can be attractive through the softness of your heart, to be considerate of other people and able to feel yourself how you make other people feel. Because people won't tell you all the time when you bothered them or made them feel bad. But this also needs to be balanced with a bit of strength, to have a sense of social fairness where you stand up for yourself when you are being in the right and apologize when you are being in the wrong. Basically common sense.

There are also other things in how to attract women that have nothing to do with an alpha man vs sensitive man scale.

You can be attractive through considering the level of interest, gaining and giving interest, mirroring the reply times of the other person not to seem too interested yourself or make them wait. However, you can start out as friends. But even if you start out as friends, eventually you have to drop some subtle hints that you are interested, making it man to woman but with some reservations. To make it clear you're interested in them but in an untold way and eventually ask them out.

Your relationship is sort of this undefined space, you might as well call it "acquaintances", but don't actually call it "acquaintances", that's sort of like implying what it is at the moment. You know they are a dating interest, they sort of know or hint that you are romantically interested in them, but nothing is confirmed, you are just talking, that sort of keeps the tension and uncertainity alive, which leads to some suspense until you ask for a date. Or of they are not interested in you at first, to talk to them to show them more of your personality and make them like you.

You can be attracitve to the playfulness of your heart. To make yourself likeable, it can mean many things, from have a good attitude, make atmosphere to smile and have a good laugh to just be a generally pleasant person who won't bother others, but at the end of the day it just means someone people like. There are also circumstantial things, that don't depend on you alone but you and the other person, similar people attract each other. If you have a lot in common naturally you're going to have an easier time talking to each other and having fun.

But don't be just entertaining, have some depth, show that yes you can be a joker if you want to but you're not just a joker. You can switch from having moments of laugh and ironies to having moments of just being polite like saying "please", "may I please", "would you like to" in a nice way that makes it hard to refuse, a non-intimidating yet confident way, or switch to having depth moments with some honesty and emotional connection. Like admitting your mistakes, stating your intentions and things like that. You can be like "look, I'm not trying to, I know you and I don't want to, but I just wanted to tell you that I'm sorry about that, I made a lot of mistakes, I was going over the top; I never actually asked you, I just sort of insisted and implied it; and I had this idea like so I went over too far with my declarations, I went in too deep too soon, and I never communicated when I thought something was off or had a worry, I was inexperienced and acted way too immaturely and I'm sorry for that, it was my fault".

You got to feel the other person look at them and see if they are responsive to that when you speak from your heart. It also shows you have depth, that you have warmth, that you can be real, that you can be you without a mask or being hidden, that you are not just a joker or an entertainer, or just a nice polite guy. It also makes it less likely to have miscomunication in the future by making them more likely to also share when they think something is off or have a worry, because you just did that and you showed them it's okay to do it.

A good character matters. Character is to treat people right, to take into account how other people feel and not wish to make them feel bad. To have a good soul, want to help others and appreciate what others do for you. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume girls with sensitivity like polite and respectful men with sensitivity and a gentle soul. Someone who can open their heart and can show depths of feeling. Someone loving who is like a gentleman.

Showing sensitivity is attractive, like learning an instrument, looking at art, listening to opera, music about the soul like rap. Girls with sensitivity like men who show that they look beyond looks and appreciate the person they are. Someone caring, with nice gestures that will impress, that they feel good with and show that they want the best for them, they want someone who would help and value them, someone who would do a lot for them. 

Helping her would be appreciated, when she has an issue or problem offering to help can be quite romantic even if it doesn't look as such. Even small things like opening the door for her or pouring soda can be apprciated. Filling out the other person's needs is romantic, especially if you do it in an unexpected way. Obivously, there's some fear about this as coming across as weak or needy or unmasculine. It's not unmasculine to help, not only to help the girl you want to get to like you, but helping people in general. It shows common sense, it shows decency, it shows character, it shows good education.

As for avoiding being a wuss, to get girls to like you without being a wuss, you got to have some confident traits but not mean-spirited traits. Some sort of alpha traits: daring, courage to go and ask, to take initiative, imposing, courage to stand up for yourself when wronged, confidence, looking like you know what you're doing. You can be a good alpha male, an alpha male with common sense, without having a mean-spirited, bitter, cruel side.

You have to have some pride of your own as well, a backbone, to not end up a press to wipe on foot and end up getting used by women, you need to have some dignity as well. But not so much dignity that you become too rigid and won't help them with anything, won't listen or consult anyone or won't be willing to talk except about the subjects you like.

How to avoid the friendzone then? As although helping her would be appreciated, when she has an issue or problem offering to help can be quite romantic even if it doesn't look as such, it is also the kind of thing a friend will do, so there's no clear difference between these two. Well, even if there's no difference it's still romantic and as I said shows character and good education. We like people who help us, who find ways to fill our needs, helping her is part of getting the girl to like you. If he has lost her dog, finding her dog and returning it to her is quite romantic, it's about helping her, doing things for her. But to avoid the friendzone, you need to be their friend but also something attractive so that they would want to be next to you meaning together with you, to be something hot. Not only good, be hot and good. Therefore the alpha male with decency and common sense part.

It's important to be aware of your social standing, your reputation, your status, to try to improve it and if it's negative to try to change it through different behavior than the one expected or who caused it in the first place. Don't be extravagant out of your desire for her, have a normal social behavior, otherwise you risk making a fool out of you. And if people have a bad opinion of you for a certain reason, prove the opposite: if people think you're greedy, be generous, buy a few drinks for them. That will prove your reputation wrong and gain people's respect and admiration. Look for people to appreciate you, that's what's important, to be appreciated by people. And judge people's character individually, don't judge people as a whole.

Seek to be interested in people, go and talk to them, to make relationships, to communicate, to get interest from people if they know other people who could help you. To call that one, that one, that one, and so on. To get other perspectives about things you want to know about. To go for projects, to go for stuff. Simply put: just do it. In life, we regret more the things we didn't do than the things we did. Take opportunities in life. 

Being polite is also important. You can simply be polite by formulating your words very nicely and asking for permission, "can I come to your place?", "can I do that?", "can I walk with you?", "can I do this?", "do you want me to do that?", or offering to do things for them without them actually asking. Like taking the trash or doing the small things for them, that also counts as being polite and helping them.

Of course, don't exaggerate with this, there are situations when you don't have to ask for permission, when it comes to small things, taking a pen and stuff like that, but what I'm trying to say is that being polite by asking for permission can be attractive for it shows common sense and good education. It essentially says that you don't want to bother people, that you're being respectful, taking into account their desires before doing something, "does it bother you if I do that?", and people appreciate that.

You don't have to be extremely polite, job interview or talking to your rigid boss level. Be polite and relaxed, but not more polite than you would be in 5 months of being with each other. Politeness is also about following social norms and having manners.

Being polite will make people feel warmer around you. Like saying "please", "if possible", "would you like to", or "thank you". But don't overdo it because you'll sound way too formal like you're a waiter at a restaurant rather than someone trying to talk to them. You can simply be polite by helping them with small things like a gentleman, formulating your words very nicely and asking for permission.

A polite request can make people more likely to say yes to you. When you ask kindly someone that you're a mildly aquantiance with, if you formulate the words with something such as "could you please" or "I would like to" you're more likely to get an yes from them.

While you should have decency and respect for close people, you shouldn't be formal with them. Formal politeness is used for people that we don't know very well when we don't know them very well. When we deal with a person we don't know very well but is of greater age or the meeting is professional, we can be polite and formal. When we deal with a person that we don't know very well but is of similar age in a casual setting, we can be polite and informal.

In general, the further away you are with a person, the more formal you have to be, the closer you are with a person, the more informal you can to be. I wouldn't overlap polite with formal and informal. Being polite is showing behaviour that is respectful and considerate of other people. Being formal is behaving in a way suitable for or constituting an official or important occasion. While informal is the opposite, having a relaxed, friendly, or unofficial style, manner, or nature. One can be informal yet polite.

When you start talking to a girl, originally, you can be polite and informal, eventually, you will gradually become more open and honest with each other, it takes time to get to have confidence a person and develop a better bond. Originally, you can be polite and informal saying: "please", "if possible", "would you like to", "thank you", "excuse me if I bother you". It doesn't have to be a dry or unexpressive conversation, but a polite one with decency for start. Eventually, you will gradually become more open and honest with each other, it takes time to get to have confidence a person. You can have a polite yet chilled and relaxed attitude where you talk as equals.

As I said previously, you can also be attractive through the playfulness of your heart, having fun with each other. The reason she wants to talk to you in the first place and not anyone else, because she has fun when she is talking to you, she feels good. People who get along very easily and are happy with each other can easily form an emotional connection.

In order to be attracted to a person, you need to know that person at least a little and feel good around them. To have a laugh with them or feel that they are someone which whom you can talk to about private issues as they are supportive and listening of you. We feel physical attraction for a lot of people, but in order to love someone you have to fall in love with their personality, the person they are. It's also important to be socially appropiate, to be aware of your relationship and position towards the other person.

Women like men with kindness, desire to help, depth of feeling and a gentle soul. Showing sensitivity is attractive. Being weak or a wuss means not standing up for yourself when you are right, and that's the key word: when you are right. The difference between a jerk and a person who is simply being defensive is context. Social context to be more exact, this is why you need to feel yourself when you bother other people, not only that, but people won't always tell you if you have bothered them or been an ahole to them, out of shyness or decency.

Women don't want a brute or strongman, they want a partner. Women want a caring and comfortable relationship, just like men do. Compassion is what makes a good character, be considerate of other people and able to feel yourself how you make other people feel. Because people won't tell you all the time when you've bothered them or made them feel bad. For good character, it's also important to be polite, it can soften people. You can simply be polite by formulating your words very nicely and asking for permission.

When you go out on a date, make sure the date is romantic, women love that, nothing over the top, but something beautiful. It doesn't have to be anything over the top, romance can be in the small moments. When it comes to the playfulness of your heart, having fun with each other. It's the reason she wants to talk to you in the first place and not anyone else, because she has fun when she is talking to you, she feels good. People who get along very easily and are happy with each other can easily form an emotional connection.

Obviously, jokes are an important part of having fun with each other. The more fun she has the better she feels and the more likely she is to say yes to you, to accept your requests for a date or other things. There was saying "if you want her to like you, make her laugh", that's the short way to put it. You can do any kind of joke, everything is okay as long as you two laugh and have a good time. It's also important to be able to be each other around each other, to be able to express yourselves, to not feel restricted or controlled.

You can make any kind of jokes: self-humor as in dissing yourself in a fun way with a tone that gives it away that I'm joking, absurdity as in making fun of things that make no sense, sarcasm as in implying the opposite of what is obvious. Some girls like to be made fun of, to have a bit of negative emotional spikes in the conversation as well.

Whether a tease is good or bad depends a lot on the circumstance and the person being teased, when someone is being teased, there is a cocktail of emotions, if you managed to piss them off or annoy or upset them but they still like it, that's teasing done right.

Much like in roasting, where as opposed to teasing there you try to be as devastating as possible, where as teasing is a light insult probably by only making fun of a trait that is not so bothersome. Even in roasting, have you ever had one of those moments when someone insults you so bad that you're impressed by it?

The same is true with teasing, a good tease can make you feel slightly negative but mostly positive. When people get called out on their crap and being poked and prod at, it can amuse them greatly.

Of course, it's only fun when both parties know it's not serious. If you pissed them off and they still like it, it's usually teasing done right. And if try try to chase you and "get you back" that means they enjoy it.

Teasing only works when the person teased is confident that the teasing is just teasing.

Which has a lot to do with the reputation of the teaser, how that person views him. Show your good character to make up for the bad. The 'bad' in teasing is more likely to be seen as a joke if you're thought of as as someone who would not genuinely think or do that.

I agree that people constantly looking for an opportunity to tease are not fun, they overdo it, but I'm not going for that. I don't do that, but in hindsight I can see how this post can come across as such.

Start out small with very light, innocent teasing and see how they respond. Do they think it's funny? Try something small and see if you get a positive response before saying anything more bold.

It's important to have a balance between the teasing. It can't be the only thing you do. More importantly, it doesn't work if you're the only one making fun of the other person in the relationship. The point is the other person getting back at you, it doesn't have to be right away, but just striving for some equality is important. If the person usually has a positive response but rarely takes the initiative to tease you, you can occasionally make fun of yourself instead to balance it a bit.

A lot of humor in teasing is being creative instead of just making fun of the person. Make a specific joke! For example, instead of saying your friend sucks at _some sport_, make a comparison that _something/someone that clearly can't play well_ would do a better job.

Balance it by making up for the "mean" behavior by going out of your way to be friendly. Give genuine compliments, and try to have moments where you lift the other person up, instead of being just a "regular" friendly person. Give the person meaningful memories of you being nice as well. You don't have to do this constantly, but balance out your "good" and "bad" behavior.

But most importantly, it is impossible to craft the perfect theoretical formula that you then can apply to any situation. It all comes down to trial and error. Every relationship is going to be different in how much teasing/banter is part of it, and how much the other person enjoys that humor.

If you're unsure about your behavior being offensive or not, instead of overthinking it's better to just ask the person afterwards (Hey, how do you feel about me making jokes about _thing_ ?).

As for looks, yes, looks are important, but not everything, show that you like them for more than what is on the surface, meaning looks.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

> Direct communicator (me) + indirect communicator = Sexual tension and intrigue. Annoying


There, I fixed it.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I don't get it...why would you want to attract someone with traits that are not authentically yours? If you attract someone with traits that aren't genuinely your own, they can't even genuinely love you.

But then also, why would you not want to be confident? (Balanced: not arrogant, not insecure) It's a healthy trait...

You should be the best version of yourself that you can be for your own sake. Strive to be healthy, not attractive. If someone is into you, they're into you; if not, you're better off without 'em. You've gotta live with yourself too at the end of the day--it's more important for you to be happy with yourself than it is for them to be happy with you. What're you going to do, be trapped inside a prison cell of changes you dislike about yourself just to keep 'em around? Deny yourself the ability to experience your own struggles and grow as a human being because you're too caught up in trying to pretend those things aren't there?

If you want to attract healthier partners though, tbh it's better to work on yourself first. Figure out who you are, what you want, and get healthy. Healthy partners don't tend to be drawn to toxic ones. If you're toxic or unhealthy you will attract toxic and unhealthy partners also. Otherwise, you run the risk of losing your partner because of the mistakes you made.

I like Kurt Cobain's quote:


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I have a difficult time accepting what confident even means when people say it--I made a joke about the guy who plays the witcher "confidently" staring at the floor, and I don't see why it can't be done. But apparently staring at the floor isn't supposed to be confident. Why can't you just do it really really hard and certainly, and come off as confident?

I did read a book recently, which cited some experiment (I haven't read the actual study) that said when you stand in a "confident" pose--like basically open, it increases your testosterone and decreases your stress chemicals?

So basically...it only takes a few seconds, but it can change how "confident" you feel. 

So like standing with your chest out or your hands on your hips kind of thing. I started doing it more when I felt socially anxious and I feel that it does help me dispel that anxiety more, so I suppose that is what confidence is. : p w/e I still don't see why someone shouldn't be able to "confidently" cross their arms and stare at the floor. lol But I'll take it as a practice.

I also knew an INFP 4 who informed me that she also would create more open body language and walk at people on the sidewalk, and she found that they moved when she did that. Because she saw me doing what I typically do, which is to try to walk around people, while they ignore me and practically drive me off the sidewalk lol So that must also be something "confident" body language communicates to others. lol She was a pretty aggressive INFP though and volatile--sort of like a volcano, whereas I tend to be more subdued. But the body language does seem to communicate something. 

I'm not sure why I feel stronger sticking my chest out--except I think a lot of women learn not to b/c of boobs and so they adopt posture that isn't that confident. So to me it sort of feels like "yeah I'll beat you up--see?!" But that's all in my head. I still prefer not having to try to hide, as I don't think that really makes people feel confident, even if it is a good skill--but you can't just hide all the time. Sometimes you have to be more like the INFP 4 girl and just jump out and scream at people "I'll kill you and rape your corpse in front of your children!!!" till they get scared (or maybe you don't have to do that, but perhaps it seems more confident...I wouldn't do it to a date though.) She doesn't really get fucked with though.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

As for myself--I'm not going to comment on men and confidence because I already did say that sometimes I specifically look for some indication that a man is slightly nervous to just make sure he's not a total douche, doesn't care etc.

But I would say that my own confidence as a woman can help me see who I feel comfortable with. Right?

So while I think it's natural to feel shy or nervous if you like someone, I also want to be able to feel like I can open up to someone...and be myself.

If I am feeling like I need to close body language, shrink or hide, or not speak after I've gotten to know them--that shows me I don't feel comfortable around them. That shows me that I should not spend time around them.

I'm not sure about how it works for men, but perhaps men should also pay attention to who they feel comfortable being themselves around, or who makes them feel like they have to hide parts of themselves or be super defensive or just withdraw.

I think it's natural to get nervous, but at a certain point people need to push through that and if you really cannot open up to someone...if it's not something that happens with everyone, it might be an indication that that person just isn't really someone you feel that comfortable with.

I'm sorry--I really do have trouble with the idea of confidence, but this is another way I can try to make sense of it from personal experience.

I mean yes--if you have expectations, that could make you nervous. If you like them and you want them to like you. But if you feel uncomfortable enough that you are just closing up and not even able to talk much because you don't feel like they're going to really respect who you are inside, then no amount of faking confidence is really worth it? Don't force yourself to open up to people you don't feel comfortable around. Perhaps this is something women have to think about more--I'm not sure if men really end up feeling this way.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Give me competence over confidence, any day. The bantam rooster strut isn't attractive.


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## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

It depends on the source/spring of the confidence. I fell into the trap of being attracted to confidence to find out that it was not based on anything viable.
So since then I have been much more careful, confidence is a must have but not enough.
Confidence based on superficialities, I don't like.

But this is just a personal preference, I can confirm that for most people it doesn't matter. Because most don't even know how to differentiate between them.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Someone can try to be confident in selling a turd sandwich. But at the end of the day its still a turd sandwich, and nobody wants to eat a turd sandwich.

Like I already know most women I'd actually have any desire for aren't gonna fall for me once they realize things, and I shouldn't expect them to.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I laughed way too hard at this.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Hexcoder said:


> I laughed way too hard at this.


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