# this is what disgusts me



## conformità

Women cry more (even entp??)
This is a touching passage I found online & I wanted to share it. Do you think entp women are an exception? I know I cry less than many men I know but I think I cry easier than other entp males. Ladies, what do you think??

One day, a young boy asked his mom.

"Why are you crying?"

"Because I'm a woman" she told him.

"I don't understand," he said.

His Mom just hugged him and said, "And you never will, but that's okay."

Later the little boy asked his father, "Why does mom seem to cry for no reason?"

"All women cry for no reason" was all his dad could say.

The little boy grew up and became a man, still wondering why women cry finally, he put in a call to God.

When God got back to him, he asked, "God, why do women cry so easily?''

God answered, "When I made women, I decided she had to be special.

I made her shoulders strong enough to carry the weight of the world, yet her arms gentle nough to give comfort.

I gave her the inner strength to endure childbirth and the rejection that many times will come, even from her own children.

I gave her a hardness that allows her to keep going and take care of her family and friends, even when everyone else gives up, through sickness and fatigue, without complaining.

I gave her sensitivity to love her children under any and all circumstances even when her child has hurt her badly. She has the very special power to make a child's boo-boo feel better and to quell a teenager's anxieties and fears.

I gave her strength to care for her husband, despite faults, and I fashioned her from his rib to protect his heart.

I gave her wisdom to know that a good husband never hurts his wife but some times tests her strengths and her resolve to stand beside him unfalteringly.

For all of this hard work, I also gave her a tear to shed, It is her's to use whenever needed and is her only weakness.

"When you see her cry, tell her how much u love her and all she does for everyone and even though she may still cry, you will have made her heart feel good.



















this is the most ridiculous, vile, disgusting thing i have ever read and the person who posted it as a thread makes me sick!!


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## Gonzo Life

My jaw just bounced off the floor. I'm glad you haven't linked to whomever posted to this ... this ... *insert string of sturdy Anglo-Saxon* nonsense.

Just to check - we are in the 21st century, yes?


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## conformità

gonzo i totally agree, some people really should go back to the 1940s amd get a fucking life, i dont care if she thinks being emotional is fantastic she should not put all women in the same category it is sooo condescending i really think she has lost her mind.


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## Gonzo Life

I'm sorry, what? ... the poster is a SHE?! *headdesk* 

Ye Gods I now feel as though I should apologise to all the menfolk I know for my (hopeful) assumption.


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## conformità

yes she is a she,, i think it is fair to say she is not a feminist.


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## conformità

p.s gonzo i like your avatar


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## Gonzo Life

TY. Its been a favourite of mine since childhood. Vincent really was made of Crazy and Win.


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## conformità

yes a lot of his work is just amazing, i find it all seems to have a warm romantic feel to it,, but yeah he was crazy, its a shame so talented yet so damaged.


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## Slider

I think you're exaggerating this topic and being overally dramatic.


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## Hiki

The thread is closed.


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## Neon Knight

Glad I'm not the only one who got nauseous reading this...


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## myjazz

Careful not to pop the bubble Slider...........


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## Neon Knight

It wasn't offensive, just hard to take from a feminist point of view. Plus my own life has hardened me to the point of hating the idea of this sort of thing, nothing personal


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## conformità

you digust me that you want to be seen this way, you deserve every critisism anyone gives you, you are nothing.


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## skycloud86

I don't think many women nowadays will appreciate that very cheesy, kitsch text. I'm not saying that women cannot or should not be traditional (the goal of feminism is to promote gender equality, meaning that people of both sexes can have equal rights, equal opportunities and equal choices), but I think many women, especially the younger, less religious women may find it horribly offensive.


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## conformità

hy, if your not uneducated why would you post this, why can you not see what is wrong with it? it is completely condescending , cheesy, sexist, stereotypical and sickly.


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## Neon Knight

Some people, mostly conservatives, agree that this is the way it should be for us, unfortunately. Conservatives tend to be stuck in the past and they make the rest of us suffer when they have too much power.


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## conformità

yes,, some people need to step into the 21st century.


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## conformità

so lets get this straight hy, you are telling me this is how you see yourself. And how exactly in the real world do you think men will really view you, if this is what you choose to act and be?


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## pinkrasputin

Yes, Conformita I did get my baby back once again. It's absolutely wonderful and exciting. But she still hurts me, and it's like a little dagger but I should really be used to it by now.

Skycloud, I tend to take what I want from things and leave the rest behind. I like the part in the OP where where it validated the struggle and the love of a mother. Motherhood is full of tears. I looked beyond the generalizations that were made in regards to men and women. I really don't think that was the point. I don't think it was meant to separate the sexes further. I think at the time, it was meant to just validate the strength and tears of a mother. I knew it was a little outdated, so I took in in context and instead focused on the "spirit" of it. 

I was married to a very emotional man who I saw cry all the time, and even so, the post did not bother me. I saw it more as just validating my personal struggle as a mother. I like that it somehow made it seem like my tears were coming from an inner strength. 

Sometimes it's hard for mom or dad's to cry and feel okay about it. I know as a mother I can "never get sick". Most mom's know what this mean. We take care of our kids first. Father's have the same way. 

But I definitely have seen the struggles for both mothers and fathers. Another father who is struggling with his teenage daughter, told me recently that raising a child has "extreme highs but also extreme lows". I know for the both of us whether we allow the tears to come or not, there can be so much pain. 

I know that both men and women know pain and have tears to shed. I also know that in relationships, often one person cries and the other supports. That can be the beautiful part. One can fall into the other. 

It's hard not to feel bad about crying and hurting over your child, you know? It's like a sweet inner secret. You just want to focus on loving them.


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## conformità

Hybridgal you make no sense....


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## conformità

how old is your daughter pink?


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## pinkrasputin

My daughter is 13.


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## conformità

you've got another 8 years of pain then


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## pinkrasputin

Haha. Thanks. But I want my baby girl back. Why couldn't I just freeze time? Everyone told me but I didn't believe...


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## conformità

hybridgal-BLLLAAAAHHHH!!! BLAAAAAHHH!!!!!! it is like having a conversation with a brick wall, you dont even have an argument, you have no morals or self respect,, unless you can truly defend your views,, dont talk to me YOU TROLL!!!


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## Surreal Snake

Sound's good to me.


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## Surreal Snake

Poem for PinkRasputin;

Mother

Mother knows daughter
They have never been a son
They cry tears of Mother
You nurture and invent
Dolphins in Kool-Aid containers
You made me invent
Forced me
The courage of Brave Ulysses
You taught me how to cry
To fight
To be weak
Your will Mother is mine
We are one
I wish i was Mother

Courage


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## conformità

why because you are incapable of defending your views???


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## skycloud86

She's a troll and not worth it, conformita. She knows she can't defend her views because there is no defence for them.


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## conformità

your right sky, im not bothering with her anymore,, im bored of her closed mindedness.


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## benfoldsfive dude

When I first read this, I thought it was a really nice piece of writing. Now, before anyone judges, let me say that I am a believer about equal rights amongst women and men. But looking back at the writing, I do see some parts that are sexist. I don't know, I tend to analyze things I see the first time on how I feel, and I thought it was a nice piece.


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## skycloud86

Here's my version -

*One day a young boy walked into his parent's bedroom, and found his mother, who was visibly upset.

“Why are you crying?,” the child asked, concerned for his mother.

“Because I have many hardships in life, and to cry is to release the emotions I feel because of those hardships. To be able to cry is a sign of strength and courage,” the woman replied, looking at her son through teary eyes.

“I don't understand what you mean, mum,” the boy spoke. As a child, he knew no hardships, and his parents made sure that he had a good and happy childhood like all children deserve.

“Maybe not now, son, but one day you will be an adult, a man like your father, and then you will understand what I mean by hardships. I hope you too will have the courage to cry when you feel like doing so, because you are a courageous and strong person,” the mother informed her son, who seemed to understand that it was something that only adults needed to worry about.

Later the little boy went into the kitchen and saw his father crying as well.

“Why are you crying?,” the boy asked, concerned that it might be something that his mother had not mentioned. The father looked at his son and smiled slightly, rubbing away tears from his eyes.

“Because I feel the need to, and because I have the strength to cry,” the father replied, and the son nodded. His father had shown the courage and strength his mother had talked about earlier that day.

Many years later, the boy was now a father and husband himself, and the life he led had hardships just like his parents had experienced. Sat down at the dining room table, he cried, allowing warm tears to flow down his cheeks, and he knew that he was indeed the strong and courageous adult that his mother and father had been.

The boy made sure that he told his children of the need to be strong, to be courageous and to cry when they felt like crying. He lived a long and happy life, and on his deathbed, surrounded by his family and friends, he began to cry silently. These were not just tears of sadness, because he knew that his life was coming to a close, but also tears of joy, because he was with the people he loved the most, and because he had been strong and courageous.*


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## Mutatio NOmenis

At the OP: you are way too easy to offend. That would be like me pulling out a machine gun because of this commercial:






Toughen up and get used to people projecting shit onto you.

/End chewing out.

P.S.: I thought the "story" was cute and praised women for all that they do rather than condemning them as weak.


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## skycloud86

MO, not all women are in traditional gender roles such as mothers and wives. It's assuming that women are only there to care for other people.


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## conformità

mutatio, why should women need to praised for all the things 'they do' why dont men like you take reponsibility and have enough respect for women to do your fair share and treat women equally. answer me that.


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## lovegodess

Now I wish you'd hurry up & reply! Lol


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## conformità

Ok im sorry again for my responces if you honestly found them offensive, You say that you are a very confident-m ok iam not disagreeing with this, but To me the facts show that people who generally want to live their lives through gender stereotypes are very insecure individuals,, For example,, why would a man want a women to live up to the old gender stereotype as typical gender stereotypes for women are basically that women stay at home and look after the children,, not to work etc etc and i think that a man felt fully secure in himself he would not wish his wife to have such a sheltered life, he would want her to be independent, to do all of the things she wanted and to be happy, i truly dont believe women who have a life thrown at them where they are isolated all day at home and only have the children for company are happy. They are not living, they are existing for other people. And i think a women who enters into this life so easily is more than likely deep down scared of life and failure so will hide behind her husbands to feel secure. I would much rather a relationship of equals where my partner would also take responsibility and help with out children and home and have love and respect and love for each other.


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## lovegodess

I was just about to go to bed & I thought I'd check in case you had responded. Yes I am a confident person & I don't think that wanting to live my life in a gendered manner indicates insecurities on my behalf. For the third or so time, I am not arguing that women & man should live according to the old gender stereotypes where women stayed home, & didn't work. I believe that women should work, and not only work but they should develop careers if given the opportunity, excell, increase their intelligence, and live their life to the fullest. However a woman will still be a woman & a man will still be a man is what I'm saying. 

Men like to be nurtured, to have their clothes washed, their dinner cooked, the sheets on their bed changed. I like to do these things for my boyfriend even though I have a career. Women like to be protected & taken care of. He will take me out to expensive dinners even if I can afford this myself & he obviously is the protector of our home, meaning if anyone ever broke in he would fight. I know it sounds very territorial & animalistic but this is the way our relationship is atm. I guess I would like things to be a little more equal but he won't be happy about doing more housework since I've made him pay for most things during the course of our relationship.


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## conformità

^^^^ 

both sexes like to be nurtured and protected


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## skycloud86

> And who said anything about being locked up? I may sound like I'm contradicting myself but this is only because what I see as 'feminine' or 'masculine' behavious border on a very fine line. Sure I may seem to possess some views that condone some minor double standards in regards to both sexes, because I view these differences to be part of the complimentary role shared between a man & woman who are intimate. This doesn't mean I hold the religious conservative views that strictly divide men & women as far apart as two distinct species. This type of degrading, patriarchal society isdefinitely not a lifestyle I condone or follow. In fact, I am probably one of the least repressed women I know. If you knew me in person, you would know this too.


I can see what you mean, but you seem to think that all men and all women have certain roles based on their biological sex. In your "complimentary roles", does one partner have to be extroverted and the other introverted? Does one partner need to be artistic whilst the other is more interested in science?



> It's not the female brain that's smaller - it's a structure within the brain which is smaller in comparison to the other structures. I don't specifically recall the name of it but it's an indication that males/females differ even in their brain a little as a result of their gender (since gay men had the 'female' structure).


In general, women have more white matter in their brains, whilst men have more grey matter. 

Not all gay men have the female structure, whilst not all straight men have the male structure. 



> You list a whole lot of information in regards to gender identity (including cisgender, gender-queer, transgender, & transsexual people), gender expression (masculine, feminine, & andogenous), sexual orientation (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual & pansexual), & genital organs. All of this was an interesting read, very articulate and accrurate however does not really do anything to prove or disprove my opinion that a woman whose gender expression is consistent with their sex will not expect everything to be identically equal in a relationship between their masculine counterpart, and neither will a man.


You seem to think that all cisgender people are the same - yes, many people will not expect everything to be identically equal (and to be honest, that ios probably impossible), but I don't agree that the man and woman have complimentary roles.



> Well I don't think that hitting her is going to be a positive experience for either of them. Having said that, a man who breaks down in tears frequently is not in my own tastes although it definitely depends on his life circumstances as nothing is ever black & white in life. I think a woman might be turned off a little easier by a man who succumbs to tears easily than visa versa (irrespective of life circumastances). Correct me if this is sexist but do so via logical arguement, not angry outburst (directed to conformita).


A woman will probably only be turned off by such a man due to societal expectations that men should not cry and/or show any emotion that isn't considered masculine.



> In what ways have you noticed I am insecure about my femininity skycloud? That was an interesting observation & I am open to exploring the idea more even if it does involve me accepting some criticism.


I don't know, it seems that you seem to hold onto some sort of idea of what the sexes should be, even though you say that you are opposed to patriarchy and gender roles.



> Unfortunatly by this stage I am getting an extremely sore hand & I will have to stop here. For the second time can we try & make the responses a little more concise because it's exhausting me to try to address all the arguments you out forward in responses as long as yours. I am not in a rush to get to the bottom of this argument & I am quite happy to expand/explore & share my ideas with you gradually & in moderation. I would appreciate it if you could reciprocate. I will not be able to tackle all your points with as much vigor/directness unless you present them gradually. This isn't a race & I just don't have the time to respond to your posts if they are going to be like a thesis to be blatantly honest.


Fair enough, and I hope my responses in this reply are concise enough.


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## skycloud86

> I was just about to go to bed & I thought I'd check in case you had responded. Yes I am a confident person & I don't think that wanting to live my life in a gendered manner indicates insecurities on my behalf. For the third or so time, I am not arguing that women & man should live according to the old gender stereotypes where women stayed home, & didn't work. I believe that women should work, and not only work but they should develop careers if given the opportunity, excell, increase their intelligence, and live their life to the fullest. However a woman will still be a woman & a man will still be a man is what I'm saying.


Yes, we get that women will be women and men will be men, but individuals will also be individuals. We all have something about us that is more typical of the other sex, we all have something about us that for one reason or another won't fit into any of our personally-defined labels that we and society have given ourselves.



> Men like to be nurtured, to have their clothes washed, their dinner cooked, the sheets on their bed changed.


Yes, and so do women. Most men are capable of doing these things themselves, and when a man is in a relationship, he should - in my opinion - occassionally be the one who washes the clothes, who cooks dinner, who changes the bed sheets. This is what I mean by equal partners - sharing the workload, doing things for each other and for themselves, being a team.



> I like to do these things for my boyfriend even though I have a career.


Fair enough, but does he do these things occassionally? If not, why not? 



> Women like to be protected & taken care of.


Some women do, and some men do. Many women are capable of protecting themselves and taking care of themselves. This is one of the points you keep making that seem to contradict your rejection of gender roles and stereotypes.



> He will take me out to expensive dinners even if I can afford this myself & he obviously is the protector of our home, meaning if anyone ever broke in he would fight.


Do you ever take him out for expensive dinners? I don't see why not - after all, he's in the relationship as well.

Could you not fight off any intruder? Even with a weapon? How come you as an adult have no part in protecting your own home?



> I know it sounds very territorial & animalistic but this is the way our relationship is atm.


If it works for the both of you and you're happy, there's no problem with the way your relationship is at the moment.



> I guess I would like things to be a little more equal but he won't be happy about doing more housework since I've made him pay for most things during the course of our relationship.


Then make things more equal, ask him to do more housework. I don't see why he should be let off because he's paid for most things - would it be the same way if you had paid for most things?


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## conformità

yes i dont like it when people pay for things for the simple reason that the person will then feel like they owe them something,, its completely self- serving.


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## lovegodess

*Skycloud (in regards to older post)*

&#936; I never said a relationship can't be beautiful & passionate if the members of the couple aren't stereotypically 'feminine' & 'masculine'. What I was trying to say is that possessing feminine & masculine traits excentuates the physical differences between a man/woman, heightening lust, attraction, and romantic chemistry. Ask any man & I don't think he'd disagree that a woman who wears makeup, has manicures/pedicures, wears provocative clothing like the girl dressed in conformita's avatar, is generally soft spoken (depending on the circumstances of course), & is quite nurturing & kind (not in an I'm your mother type of way), is a big 
turn on. When women start behaving androgynously, they loose this sex appeal & the same is true when reversed, a big part of why sex dies out fast in a high number of marriages or long term relationships in the western part of the world.

&#936; Yes I do think it's important for a woman to be feminine & a man to be masculine in a relationship. Having said that I don't believe that behaving that way merely for the sake of the relationship is going to be healthy. If building up your femininity is important to a woman as it is to me then she should be exactly the same person in a relationship as she is outside a relationship.

&#936; Ofcourse not all women are more nurturing than all men, in fact gay men are probably some of the most nurturing types I know, more so than women. Their bitchy streak is also quite sharp & utilizes the efficiency of the woman's brain you talked about earlier which men are generally naive about. They seem to have a better concept of feminine behavior than many cisgender women themselves. In fact, get a gay man to read this blog & I 'bet' he'd make more sense of that most of the others lol. 

&#936; Why do you think housework should be divided equally? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this but it's not necessarily a right or wrong matter. It seems to be more a matter of what makes couples happy. As I've already said, I would like it if my partner helped some more with the housework. He often will be watching a great movie while I'm washing up. Don't get me wrong, he's helped plenty of times when there was a pile up of dishes etc, sacrificing his movie time, & each time I notice he is less relaxed & happy & more grumpy. I think that if a woman can master household chores, be super efficient & quick, that she can make the man of the house truely happy while still having time for the relationship & herself. These days with high quality dishwashers, washing machines, ovens, and food processing, cooking & cleaning are becoming more like hobbies than chores anyway.


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## skycloud86

> I never said a relationship can't be beautiful & passionate if the members of the couple aren't stereotypically 'feminine' & 'masculine'. What I was trying to say is that possessing feminine & masculine traits excentuates the physical differences between a man/woman, heightening lust, attraction, and romantic chemistry. Ask any man & I don't think he'd disagree that a woman who wears makeup, has manicures/pedicures, wears provocative clothing like the girl dressed in conformita's avatar, is generally soft spoken (depending on the circumstances of course), & is quite nurturing & kind (not in an I'm your mother type of way), is a big
> turn on. When women start behaving androgynously, they loose this sex appeal & the same is true when reversed, a big part of why sex dies out fast in a high number of marriages or long term relationships in the western part of the world.


But some people like people whose behaviour is androgynous. I could ask any man, but I bet any gay man and many straight men would actually disagree with you.

If someone is attracted to a feminine woman or masculine man, then that's fine, but not everyone is attracted to feminine women and masculine men.



> Yes I do think it's important for a woman to be feminine & a man to be masculine in a relationship. Having said that I don't believe that behaving that way merely for the sake of the relationship is going to be healthy. If building up your femininity is important to a woman as it is to me then she should be exactly the same person in a relationship as she is outside a relationship.


That's your opinion, and not everyone agrees that it is important.



> Of course not all women are more nurturing than all men, in fact gay men are probably some of the most nurturing types I know, more so than women.


That's very stereotypical, not to mention incorrect. If they are more nurturing than many women, then it is due to their personality, not their sexuality.



> [Their bitchy streak is also quite sharp & utilizes the efficiency of the woman's brain you talked about earlier which men are generally naive about.


Their bitchy streak? Again, very stereotypical. Most gay men do not fit the stereotype.



> They seem to have a better concept of feminine behavior than many cisgender women themselves. In fact, get a gay man to read this blog & I 'bet' he'd make more sense of that most of the others lol.


OK, ask a gay male member of the forum to read this blog and we'll see. I doubt that all gay men will make more sense of that.



> Why do you think housework should be divided equally?


In an adult relationship, there are two adults. These two adults live together in the same house. That means that they should share in the housework. I don't see how this is so hard for you to grasp.



> I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this but it's not necessarily a right or wrong matter. It seems to be more a matter of what makes couples happy.


If couples want a different arrangement, that's fine, but I still think that both partners should do at least some of the housework, and that it shouldn't be left to one partner.



> As I've already said, I would like it if my partner helped some more with the housework. He often will be watching a great movie while I'm washing up. Don't get me wrong, he's helped plenty of times when there was a pile up of dishes etc, sacrificing his movie time, & each time I notice he is less relaxed & happy & more grumpy.


No offence, but your partner sounds like a overgrown child, getting all sulky because he has to be a grown up. He sounds infantile and stupid to me, and I don't think he really appreciates you. If he can't spend a few minutes doing some of the work before going back to his movies, then he doesn't deserve you. You really need to make that so-called man grow up - he's not a toddler anymore.



> I think that if a woman can master household chores, be super efficient & quick, that she can make the man of the house truely happy while still having time for the relationship & herself.


Why do you have this idea that if a woman can do household chores really well, it makes men happy? The only reason it makes some men happy is because they are lazy assholes who are content to be treated like children. Believe me, women like you aren't respected by some men at all, and in fact some men would love to be in a relationship with you because you sound like a doormat. Many men, if they were in a relationship with you, would feel stressed, guilty and horrible if they couldn't help you with the housework.

You know what makes a man truly happy? When he can spend time with his partner, when they do things together. Most men nowadays aren't looking for some 1950's housewifey doormat, they want to be with a modern woman who considers herself his equal. I'm sorry, but you do not understand men at all, you only understand the childish, stereotypical "men".



> These days with high quality dishwashers, washing machines, ovens, and food processing, cooking & cleaning are becoming more like hobbies than chores anyway.


Good, and hopefully one day machines will do all of the household chores and free both men and women from such mindless, boring tasks.


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## lovegodess

*Skycloud, part 2 of older posts*

&#936; You talk about anger as being the only emotion that is socially acceptable for men to express. I disagree - is it not socially acceptable for men to express love, affection, admiration even? (for a woman or other man who they care about for that matter). Is it not socially acceptable for a man to express joy, laughter, and happiness when life is flowing smoothly with magic memories? Is it not acceptable for him to express sadness & grief at the expense of the loss of something or someone who was especially dear to him which may naturally involve him crying? Did I ever deny any of that? No.

&#936; Actually societal gender roles have made it unacceptable for _men_ to express certain emotions, and they are the ones who are oppressed in western society atm. This ultimately leads to a power struggle & imbalance between men & women which naturally leads to women looking for other modes to express their femininity which is actually what is resulting in their own moments of oppression, if anything. But either way, women are currently the favoref gender, society is trying to apologize & make it up to them by giving them all the rights they never had plus 10X more (much like the Australian govt. is doing with the Aboriginal people after the act of reconciliation). Unfortunately the consequences for men have resulted in the oppression of masculinity & it is not news that masculinity is in crisis currently, with male suicide rates being higher than they've ever been in history.

&#936; In what ways does society expect women to put others before herself? Can you give me examples of this??

&#936; I never said men were _only_ there to spend money on me. Once again, I'm sorry if I've failed to put across my view clearly on this matter. What I meant to say is that when a man pays a woman feels like a lady. This isn't to say that women shouldn't pay for dinners or buy men gifts. I suppose I was just saying I thought women appreciate it more when they are spoilt in this way. Once again this is just my current view and feel free to point out my error of reasoning if it is clear to you.

&#936; Now let me clarify that I do not have hatred of any man or woman that steps outside of traditional gender roles. I do it all the time though I chose to maintain some of the parts of tradition that perhaps I value, which is generally less than more. I 
definitely don't think the 1950's should return but merely that the gender roles are imbalanced yet again. In the 1950's it was women who were oppressed, in 2010 it is men - it's as simple as that really. I happen to feel sorry for men & find that they are so insecure in their current state that as conformita put it much earlier, when you give them the respect that the aren't accustomed to as men in the 21st century, they tend to take advantage of this position like dehydrated dogs (ahahaha, my example cracks me up), and stomp all over you. It makes me extremely angry in the times I have found myself in these situations yet I somehow always bring it back to society's fault as opposed to blaming the men (although my patience does have limits). And I just learn my lesson & give much less to the next man who I meet who is clearly oppressed & likely to abuse any power thrown his way. A true man will respect a woman who values his masculinty rather than exploiting her. I am a powerful woman & to have a male try & disrespect me for clearly giving him a little more than he has ever had disgusts me & makes my blood boil but like I said, I'm learning my lesson :-$


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## skycloud86

> You talk about anger as being the only emotion that is socially acceptable for men to express. I disagree - is it not socially acceptable for men to express love, affection, admiration even? (for a woman or other man who they care about for that matter). Is it not socially acceptable for a man to express joy, laughter, and happiness when life is flowing smoothly with magic memories? Is it not acceptable for him to express sadness & grief at the expense of the loss of something or someone who was especially dear to him which may naturally involve him crying? Did I ever deny any of that? No.


Fair enough.



> Actually societal gender roles have made it unacceptable for men to express certain emotions


Yeah, I know this, I've said it a few times already.



> and they are the ones who are oppressed in western society atm.


Yes, but women still are oppressed, and far more so than men. Western society pays women less, treats women like sex objects and still discriminates women based on stereotypes and gender roles. Women can't even go on public transport or walk through dark streets or even go to work without the threat of being sexually harrassed, assaulted or even raped. Women are brought up from an early age with the message that they must be thin, they must be pretty, they must be sexually alluring but not sexually promiscuous.

The only male groups who are oppressed as much as women are GBT men, men from ethnic or religious minorities, poor men and disabled men.



> This ultimately leads to a power struggle & imbalance between men & women which naturally leads to women looking for other modes to express their femininity which is actually what is resulting in their own moments of oppression, if anything.


What power struggle? What do you mean by women looking for other modes to express their femininity?

Women are oppressed for being women, not because they are alledgedly looking for some other ways of expressing their femininity.



> But either way, women are currently the favoref gender, society is trying to apologize & make it up to them by giving them all the rights they never had plus 10X more (much like the Australian govt. is doing with the Aboriginal people after the act of reconciliation).


No, men are the favoured sex. Men get paid more, men don't get objectified, men don't have to sacrifice their career for their family, men don't have to fear sexual harrassment, sexual assault and rape. Most governments are almost entirely male-dominated. Men aren't bombarded with messages telling them to stay thin, stay pretty, stay sexually alluring. 

How exactly is society trying to apologise and make it up to women?



> Unfortunately the consequences for men have resulted in the oppression of masculinity & it is not news that masculinity is in crisis currently, with male suicide rates being higher than they've ever been in history.


Society prefers masculinity, and in fact men are pressured by society to be masculine, and not to act or be feminine in any way. If anything, femininity is oppressed in men, and masculinity is oppressed in women.

Male suicide rates are higher than women's anyway as men tend to choose more violent methods of suicide, which means that they succeed in killing themselves more often than women - you're more likely to survive taking an overdose than you are to survive chucking yourself in front of a train or shooting yourself in the head. If masculinity has anything to do with the high numbers of men killing themselves, it's because men are forced to keep within the narrow masculinity that society sees as acceptable for men.



> In what ways does society expect women to put others before herself? Can you give me examples of this??


Seriously?

Women are pressured to put their husband and children before their career.
Women are pressured to have a family as soon as they can.
Women are pressured to make sure they look pretty in order to allow men to leer at them.
Women are pressured to be sexually submissive and to put her partner's pleasure before her own.



> I never said men were only there to spend money on me. Once again, I'm sorry if I've failed to put across my view clearly on this matter. What I meant to say is that when a man pays a woman feels like a lady.


I'm sure some women do feel like ladies when men pay for them, but I don't understand why they would feel like that.



> This isn't to say that women shouldn't pay for dinners or buy men gifts. I suppose I was just saying I thought women appreciate it more when they are spoilt in this way. Once again this is just my current view and feel free to point out my error of reasoning if it is clear to you.


Maybe some women do appreciate it more, but it's most likely not because they are women, but because they as a person appreciate it.



> Now let me clarify that I do not have hatred of any man or woman that steps outside of traditional gender roles. I do it all the time though I chose to maintain some of the parts of tradition that perhaps I value, which is generally less than more. I definitely don't think the 1950's should return but merely that the gender roles are imbalanced yet again. In the 1950's it was women who were oppressed, in 2010 it is men - it's as simple as that really.


No, it's not - men are not oppressed as much as women are. You know, men often forget all about their sex, because to society, male is the default, men are in society's eyes the superior sex. It's like with race - black people are far more conscious of their racial identity, because society doesn't treat them in the same way it treats white people. There's a reason why Lennon called women, in one of his songs, the "ni**ers" of the world - women are concious of their sex because society doesn't treat them in the same way it treats men. Women were, and still are, subserviant to men.



> I happen to feel sorry for men & find that they are so insecure in their current state that as conformita put it much earlier, when you give them the respect that the aren't accustomed to as men in the 21st century, they tend to take advantage of this position like dehydrated dogs (ahahaha, my example cracks me up), and stomp all over you.


Men are respected a lot more than women are, and I don't know where you get the idea that they aren't. Men in the 21st century are much better off than men in the 19th or 20th centuries were, thanks mainly to feminism and progressivism. Feminism is a win-win ideololgy, because if you liberate women, you liberate men at the same time.



> It makes me extremely angry in the times I have found myself in these situations yet I somehow always bring it back to society's fault as opposed to blaming the men (although my patience does have limits).


What situations are you referring to?



> And I just learn my lesson & give much less to the next man who I meet who is clearly oppressed & likely to abuse any power thrown his way.


How is he oppressed? Unless he is poor, or from an ethnic/religious minority, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual or disabled he is not truly oppressed anywhere near as much as those groups are.



> A true man will respect a woman who values his masculinty rather than exploiting her.


And what if he doesn't have that much masculinity? A true person will respect a person when that person deserves respect, regardless of what they value.



> I am a powerful woman & to have a male try & disrespect me for clearly giving him a little more than he has ever had disgusts me & makes my blood boil but like I said, I'm learning my lesson :-$


I'm glad that you are a powerful person, but what do you mean by giving him a little more than he has ever had?


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## lovegodess

*Skycloud, part 3 of older posts*

&#936; I never said that it wasn't 'normal' or acceptable for a man to do all the housework & childrearing if he's home all day, but rather that it isn't 'natural'. I am well aware that this view is potentially going to offend a lot of people since it may be the case that you or a couple you know are living under these arrangements. I have a friend who was doing it for a little while & he became quite effeminate in this period. He was the one showing all the affection & cooing his baby (quite a funny site to watch) while his wife commonly scorned him for not doing one thing or the other right. So you see, not only women can have an imbalance of power. Men can 
be mistreated & dominated too, although I never condoned this in either sex by saying that masculine & feminine gender roles are complimentary.

&#936; Never did I say a man should be a lazy fatass (lmfao) who sits on the sofa, plays computer games, or watches movies all day. Once again I'm about to delve into what you refer to as stereotypical territory but ideally men should be working on bulding & maintaining a strong body as part of their masculinity - they obviously need to spend a lot of time at the gym to develop the strength needed to make their bodies look masculine than their female counterparts. Women are able to work out less & still look great since they only require definition to enhance the femininity in their body or make their physical selves sexually appealing to the opposite sex. To build their bodies men need an awful lot of time, dedication, swell as psychological strength & self control. I am certain I am starting a separate thesis here with you, but I can't say i wasn't prepared or bringing it on myself. Lol. I just can't believe I'm typing this all through an iPhone!!

&#936; You say I will attract a looser, well I already have a long term boyfriend & I can assure you he's not a looser. I can't argue that there are moments in our relationship which have been 'loveless' as you put it (not that we ever stopped loving each other but every relationship has it's good & bad phases) but it would be unfair of you to make a judgement on this without knowing the context surrounding our relationship & the foundation on which it was built. I certainly hope I don't spend my whole life cooking & being pregnant. Although I wouldn't mind having lots of children one day, I have many, many more plans for my life which my partner knows about & supports me in. Personality cafe isn't included in those plans rofl.

&#936; I never said that people couldn't be happy outside of their gender roles. This whole argument on my behalf has been an expression of my own views & obviously different things make different people happy. I said from the start that we'd probably agree to disagree but I wanted to debate this for the sake of opening up my mind to different possibilities on the topic.


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## skycloud86

> I never said that it wasn't 'normal' or acceptable for a man to do all the housework & childrearing if he's home all day, but rather that it isn't 'natural'.


Why does it matter that it's not natural?



> I am well aware that this view is potentially going to offend a lot of people since it may be the case that you or a couple you know are living under these arrangements. I have a friend who was doing it for a little while & he became quite effeminate in this period.


So? I could find many househusbands who stayed the same, and probably some who became even more masculine. I personally think that he didn't become more effeminate, but was already effeminate and hadn't had a suitable way of showing his femininity before.



> He was the one showing all the affection & cooing his baby (quite a funny site to watch) while his wife commonly scorned him for not doing one thing or the other right. So you see, not only women can have an imbalance of power. Men can be mistreated & dominated too, although I never condoned this in either sex by saying that masculine & feminine gender roles are complimentary.


Fair enough.



> Never did I say a man should be a lazy fatass (lmfao) who sits on the sofa, plays computer games, or watches movies all day. Once again I'm about to delve into what you refer to as stereotypical territory but ideally men should be working on bulding & maintaining a strong body as part of their masculinity - they obviously need to spend a lot of time at the gym to develop the strength needed to make their bodies look masculine than their female counterparts.


What about men who can't do that sort of exercise? What about other forms of masculine appearance that can't come from going to the gym? I don't think that there is only one "masculine" appearance, and there isn't just one "feminine" appearance either.



> Women are able to work out less & still look great since they only require definition to enhance the femininity in their body or make their physical selves sexually appealing to the opposite sex.


So what about lesbian women? 



> To build their bodies men need an awful lot of time, dedication, swell as psychological strength & self control. I am certain I am starting a separate thesis here with you, but I can't say i wasn't prepared or bringing it on myself. Lol. I just can't believe I'm typing this all through an iPhone!!


Yes, and I personally believe that men spending hours at the gym building up muscles is a waste of time. They could be doing something far more productive with their time.



> You say I will attract a looser, well I already have a long term boyfriend & I can assure you he's not a looser. I can't argue that there are moments in our relationship which have been 'loveless' as you put it (not that we ever stopped loving each other but every relationship has it's good & bad phases) but it would be unfair of you to make a judgement on this without knowing the context surrounding our relationship & the foundation on which it was built. I certainly hope I don't spend my whole life cooking & being pregnant. Although I wouldn't mind having lots of children one day, I have many, many more plans for my life which my partner knows about & supports me in. Personality cafe isn't included in those plans rofl.


Good, and I wish you and him the best of luck.



> I never said that people couldn't be happy outside of their gender roles. This whole argument on my behalf has been an expression of my own views & obviously different things make different people happy. I said from the start that we'd probably agree to disagree but I wanted to debate this for the sake of opening up my mind to different possibilities on the topic.


Fair enough.


----------



## lovegodess

*Skycloud, older posts part 4*

&#936; Wow. I have been stuck on my phone 3 whole hours typing up responses to your older posts only to find that you already replied to all of those too. Needless to say I'm having a hard time keeping up with you.

&#936; Does society really encourage women not to enjoy sex? I wasn't aware of this in all honesty (no need to be sarcastic this time). What evidence are you basing this statement on? If women aren't enjoying sex then what satisfaction are their male counterparts going to get out of their sexual encounters together? Or are men savage beasts that like to insert their penis into a 'blow up doll' to use one of conformita's phrases from earlier. I didn't mean to say girls and men, there are times where I'll probably accidently say boys and women, it was just a technical error. I also think its stupid for women to feel cheap or like whores if they enjoy sex although i can't say I haven't been a victim of this feeling. I was just never  aware that it was society that imposed that guilt upon me. I guess the reason I support women doing the housework even though i don't support women being sexually repressed, is because my boyfriend has convinced me that nothing makes him happier in the world than when I look after the household tasks efficiently enough that I still have time for my self, for him, and for my friends. I'm not denying that he wants a superwoman but I just don't knownif this is humanly possible as I'm still on the lookout for my supernatural powers which I hope will make themselves known anytime soon.

*Conformita*
&#936; It wasn't your responses that i found offensive as much as it was the 'way' you were responding. It was obvious that my views on this topic made you extremely angry which I accepted but calling me nothing & screaming at me as indicative of your capslocks & insinuating that inwas conservative, religious, & uneducated were hurtful things to say because those descriptions don't fit me at all. You all keep saying that I'm the Queen of stereotyping but with comments like the ones I mentioned above, you aren't much better. Like it's been said before, like isn't black or white, but rather made up of many shades of grey. If I'm not a feminist it doesn't automatically make me a 1950's conservative housewife. Anyway i appreciate your email conformita, concern, and apologizing to me for possibly offending me. I'm not going to hide that your email was part of the reason i returned to perc since I finally noticed that you saw some value in what I had to say. I also apologize if I have sounded sexist/chauvanstic in my posts, threads, or in this blog. All I'm doing is expressing my own views and if I was so certain that they were entirely accurate i wouldn't be debating this topic in your blog, so obviously I'm open to reviewing and refining my point of view on matters relating to gender roles as it seems you are too.


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## lovegodess

I'm actually going to respond to this whole page later on tonight since I had housework & cooking to do as well as making it to the gym before they close. Funnily enough this has nothing tondo with gender roles since my partner is away overseas at the moment & I have the house to myself. I am not scared someone will come & rape me & yes I can fight with a weapon if its necessary


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## lovegodess

I figured it'd be best if I replied gradually than all at once tonight.

Interesting Conformita that you point out that those who chose to adopt *aspects* of gender stereotypes (and I emphasize aspects since I do not embrace most of the traditional parts of gender roles in my lifestyle or personality regardless of what you may believe) are insecure individuals. I have said many times that I do not agree with many aspects of traditional gender roles and that relationships, gender roles and anything else relating to the way one choses to live out his/her life, is made up of many shades o grey. I'm now going to elaborate on that metaphor & say that life takes place in many shades of color. 

There are many factors that contribute to a person's views and values in life & in regards to topics like this & I would appreciate it once again (I am really extending my patience now) if we could discuss the topic at hand rathe than trying to point the finger at who or who isn't insecure, confident, powerful, misogynistic, an idiot, right/wrong, etc. as all of this is irrelevant in the larger scope of this debate, which aims imo to find a lifestyle or 'solution' that works best for the person, nit for everyone. 

The purpose of this blog I thought was to have a mature conversation like a bunch of adults who should be more capable of respecting one another's views without needing to generate a 'winner' or 'loser' or 'secure' or 'insecure' player. I think it's fair to say that we are both confident ladies who have probably been raised under different cultural standards in regards to gender roles (I am multicultural also, which divides me in many areas with relation to my identity). I am here to explore this topic at a deeper level, not to explore whether it indicates insecurities on my behalf as I know who I am. If I am _mistaken_ in my views, it doesn't necessarily denote insecurity, just plain ignorance. If I am ignorant, please point out to me where my errors of reason are occurring.


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## lovegodess

Conformita, I like your example & I _agree_ with it!! A man who is secure would not want his wife to stay home, look after the children forever (impossible to avoid this when they are infants), or live a sheltered life. I fully agree with you here but I never said that I support the old gender stereotypes entirely. 

My view is that society has moved forward at an astonishing pace & has consequently amended many discriminatory beliefs that were repressing certain social groups such as women or black people. Having said this, in an effort to make society 'fair' it seems that society itself has also swept away those things that were working, being equally unfair in other ways that were not present in the Marilyn Monroe era.


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## myjazz

You know what disgusts me? This blog.


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## lovegodess

Conformita, I agree both sexes like to be nurtured & protected but probably in different ways. For example, men are likely to get territorial & may have physical fights over a woman they both like. This does please many women including myself (yes, its very lame I know but instinctual & a natural animal response [we are animals with brains]) because it makes you feel protected or desired enough that two people are willing to get hurt for you. Of course, I wouldn't be pleased if the boys actually _did_ get terribly hurt but just that aggression alone, or that rough play they may engage in over you, is a real turn on lol. Do boys also like it when women fight over them? Lol.

In regards to being nurtured, I am afraid my boy is not meeting my emotional needs. When I'm sick he does everything but makes me feel bad if I don't thank him 100 times, claiming that he did everything for me. Meanwhile I never get thanked for doing everything every other day. Actually I'm more likely to be scorned at or lectured for a meal not being cooked to his taste buds, or the floor not being vaccines often enough. I honestly don't know if or how I'll get him out of this habit since whenever I ask him to help me with more than the bate minimum, he always manages to find a way to convince me that I'm not woman enough, & being culturally naive I usually sucked in.


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## lovegodess

myjazz, you probably disgust yourself.

Skycloud

In my 'complimentary roles' one partner does not have to be more extraverted, introverted, artistic, scientific, etc. Rather the 'complimentary' part is context based. Males have *huge* egos for example and so given a situation where his ego may be bruised, I try to word my expression carefully in order to get my point across without doing damage to his ego. Some women also have a big ego (myself included) but I guess what I'm saying is that men's & women's egos bruise in different conexts. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the study that I was referring to from my university course, it was statistically proved that women & homosexual men tended to have a significantly smaller version of an incredibly small structure somewhere inside the brain. Although the structure is tiny to begin with, this is by no means an indication that it does not play a big part in influencing the behavior of an indovidual. The amygdala is a very small almond shaped structure of the brain for example, that has been proven to control & regulate all human emotion. 

Well I believe you defined cisgender people as those whose gender expression was the same as their biological sex. If this is the case then I certainly am claiming that there is a universal objective definition of what it is to be masculine or feminine for a cisgender person. You don't agree that men & women have complimentary roles? Fair enough but cisgender men & women already have accepted that their gender expression is goin to be opposite from their parners (masculine & feminine are opposites just like yes & no) in which case they are probably expecting one to compliment the other. Are you not cisgender then? If not, that's perfectly ok.

You talk about societal expectations of men not crying. Well, what do *you* think? Should men freely & openly express tears as often as women without being deemed as less masculine? If this is what you believe then that is perfectly ok. Just be prepared that if you live according to this rule that there may be some women (not sure if you have a girlfriend or what she's like) who will start to think could have done better (so sorry if it sounds shallow). It may be a harsh reality but unfortunately for men who like to cry, this is often the way it is perceied by women. 

I can't say for sure that it's not societal conditioning alone but if I had to chose I 'bet' there is more to it than conditioning. Perhaps some ingrained instinct that men who cry often & easily won't be strong enough to fend off intruders & protect his woman and young from them, etc. It all goes back to our instincts since humans are just another form of animal called homosapiens. Lol


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## lovegodess

Skycloud continued

I am definitely opposed to patriarchy. As for gender roles I think I have made it clear by now that I am neither totally for nor totally against them. I believe that a person who chooses to express the gender of his/her biological sex is definitley going to display some different behavious (gender role behavious specifically) to a person who has chosen to be or feels androgenous. Oh, & thanks, your responses do seem to be getting more concise which is nice but I'm still fighting to keep up lol. Ate you a type 7 by any chance? Damn type 7's fly through information as if they were on a daily tour of all the worlds continents. Let's focus on one country at a time please 

You say that a man should 'occasionally' wash clothes, cook dinner, and change the bed sheets when his is in relationship. What do you mean by occasionally? Do you think household chores should be divided equally between a couple/family household like 50/50 or are you saying you prefer the female to be doing the majority of these tasks? It is your preference either way but the word occasionally confused me because I thought you were supporting an entirley equal division earlier.

He does help with household chores occasionally but unfortunately for me I have to really nag him to help & even then it's minimal. I've been under that much pressure before that I've just kind of ended up leaving things unwashed & uncleaned in an unconscious attempt to 'force' him to help which he did but this obviously did nothing for the health of our relationship. I came out as less of a woman again & he came out the hero for helping *me* to get myself back on my feet again - so you see I have been fighting a no win battle for quite some time here. And if you think this makes my existence a sad one, you are not entirely wrong.


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## skycloud86

> Wow. I have been stuck on my phone 3 whole hours typing up responses to your older posts only to find that you already replied to all of those too. Needless to say I'm having a hard time keeping up with you.


Sorry about that.



> Does society really encourage women not to enjoy sex? I wasn't aware of this in all honesty (no need to be sarcastic this time). What evidence are you basing this statement on? If women aren't enjoying sex then what satisfaction are their male counterparts going to get out of their sexual encounters together?


It's things like the double standard where a man can sleep with as many women as he wants, but if a woman sleeps with many men she is called a slut or a whore. Women are called "easy" if they want sex as much as men, and "frigid" if they don't.



> Or are men savage beasts that like to insert their penis into a 'blow up doll' to use one of conformita's phrases from earlier.


Most men aren't, but I wouldn't say that it was an inaccurate description of some men.



> I didn't mean to say girls and men, there are times where I'll probably accidently say boys and women, it was just a technical error.


Fair enough.



> I also think its stupid for women to feel cheap or like whores if they enjoy sex although i can't say I haven't been a victim of this feeling.


Although social conditioning is strong, some people nowadays are fortunate not to feel guilty about not adhering to what society wants.



> I was just never aware that it was society that imposed that guilt upon me. I guess the reason I support women doing the housework even though i don't support women being sexually repressed, is because my boyfriend has convinced me that nothing makes him happier in the world than when I look after the household tasks efficiently enough that I still have time for my self, for him, and for my friends.


How has he convinced you of this?



> I'm not denying that he wants a superwoman but I just don't knownif this is humanly possible as I'm still on the lookout for my supernatural powers which I hope will make themselves known anytime soon.


It isn't, no.


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## skycloud86

> In regards to being nurtured, I am afraid my boy is not meeting my emotional needs. When I'm sick he does everything but makes me feel bad if I don't thank him 100 times, claiming that he did everything for me.


He shouldn't make you feel bad for him looking after you. He should be helping you because he loves you, not because he wants thanks.



> Meanwhile I never get thanked for doing everything every other day. Actually I'm more likely to be scorned at or lectured for a meal not being cooked to his taste buds, or the floor not being vaccines often enough. I honestly don't know if or how I'll get him out of this habit since whenever I ask him to help me with more than the bate minimum, he always manages to find a way to convince me that I'm not woman enough, & being culturally naive I usually sucked in.


He sounds like an abusive partner to me, and I think he knows that you keep getting sucked into it.


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## skycloud86

> SkyclouIn my 'complimentary roles' one partner does not have to be more extraverted, introverted, artistic, scientific, etc. Rather the 'complimentary' part is context based. Males have huge egos for example and so given a situation where his ego may be bruised, I try to word my expression carefully in order to get my point across without doing damage to his ego. Some women also have a big ego (myself included) but I guess what I'm saying is that men's & women's egos bruise in different conexts. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I don't understand this paragraph - first you say that males have huge egos, then you say some women have big egos. Why do all males have big egos yet only some women do?



> In the study that I was referring to from my university course, it was statistically proved that women & homosexual men tended to have a significantly smaller version of an incredibly small structure somewhere inside the brain.


Statistically doesn't mean scientifically, and whilst I'm sure some women and homosexual men do fit this tendency, I'm also sure that many women and most homosexual men don't.



> Although the structure is tiny to begin with, this is by no means an indication that it does not play a big part in influencing the behavior of an indovidual. The amygdala is a very small almond shaped structure of the brain for example, that has been proven to control & regulate all human emotion.


Did your course say anything about transsexual people, who I would have thought would be far more likely (in the case of transwomen, anyway) to have a brain structure similar to the other sex?



> Well I believe you defined cisgender people as those whose gender expression was the same as their biological sex. If this is the case then I certainly am claiming that there is a universal objective definition of what it is to be masculine or feminine for a cisgender person. You don't agree that men & women have complimentary roles? Fair enough but cisgender men & women already have accepted that their gender expression is goin to be opposite from their parners (masculine & feminine are opposites just like yes & no) in which case they are probably expecting one to compliment the other. Are you not cisgender then? If not, that's perfectly ok.


Someone can be cisgender but not necessarily very stereotypically male or female, and I don't think they always compliment other cisgender people of the other sex.

No, I'm not cisgender - I'm leaning towards masculine, but tend to be rather neutral when it comes to gender expression (although I look and dress like a typical male).



> You talk about societal expectations of men not crying. Well, what do you think? Should men freely & openly express tears as often as women without being deemed as less masculine? If this is what you believe then that is perfectly ok.


Yes, and it is only society that has pushed this idea of crying not being masculine onto men, and I think men are becoming more able to do so.



> Just be prepared that if you live according to this rule that there may be some women (not sure if you have a girlfriend or what she's like) who will start to think could have done better (so sorry if it sounds shallow). It may be a harsh reality but unfortunately for men who like to cry, this is often the way it is perceied by women.


Yes, some women don't like it, but I bet all of those women only dislike it because of the societal expectation that men do not cry.



> I can't say for sure that it's not societal conditioning alone but if I had to chose I 'bet' there is more to it than conditioning. Perhaps some ingrained instinct that men who cry often & easily won't be strong enough to fend off intruders & protect his woman and young from them, etc. It all goes back to our instincts since humans are just another form of animal called homosapiens. Lol


It is partly ingrained instinct, but we're able to control many of our other instincts nowadays. I think eventually both these instincts and gender roles will vanish, and humanity will be better off.


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## skycloud86

> I am definitely opposed to patriarchy. As for gender roles I think I have made it clear by now that I am neither totally for nor totally against them. I believe that a person who chooses to express the gender of his/her biological sex is definitley going to display some different behavious (gender role behavious specifically) to a person who has chosen to be or feels androgenous.


Of course, but we all have some androgynous behaviours. 



> Oh, & thanks, your responses do seem to be getting more concise which is nice but I'm still fighting to keep up lol. Ate you a type 7 by any chance? Damn type 7's fly through information as if they were on a daily tour of all the worlds continents. Let's focus on one country at a time please


I'm a 5w4 myself.



> You say that a man should 'occasionally' wash clothes, cook dinner, and change the bed sheets when his is in relationship. What do you mean by occasionally? Do you think household chores should be divided equally between a couple/family household like 50/50 or are you saying you prefer the female to be doing the majority of these tasks? It is your preference either way but the word occasionally confused me because I thought you were supporting an entirley equal division earlier.


It should be 50/50, but should never be 0/100. If some couples can't share it 50/50 for some reason, then it should be shared out as equally as possible, and I don't see why it can't at least be 40/60.



> He does help with household chores occasionally but unfortunately for me I have to really nag him to help & even then it's minimal. I've been under that much pressure before that I've just kind of ended up leaving things unwashed & uncleaned in an unconscious attempt to 'force' him to help which he did but this obviously did nothing for the health of our relationship. I came out as less of a woman again & he came out the hero for helping me to get myself back on my feet again - so you see I have been fighting a no win battle for quite some time here. And if you think this makes my existence a sad one, you are not entirely wrong.


I think he really doesn't deserve being in a relationship with you.

I found a few links that might be helpful (I know it's about married couples, but these seemed better than the ones that mentioned boyfriends) - 

How to Get Your Husband to Help with Housework: Five Ways to Enlist Your Spouse to Work Around the House
Housework hell: my husband never helps: iVillage
How to Get a Man to do Housework - Men and Marriage by Marty Friedman at Married Romance


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## cardinalfire

I personally don't see anything wrong with it. She obviously had good intentions when she wrote it, and perhaps she values different things in life, more traditional conservative things, which isn't necessarily wrong, though as was said, there will be some women who don't relate to it at all.


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## conformità

^^^cardinal, you dont see anything wrong with;
*"Why are you crying?"

"Because I'm a woman" she told him.*
*"I don't understand," he said.

His Mom just hugged him and said, "And you never will, but that's okay."*


you dont see it as condescending or sexist?


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## cardinalfire

haha, lmao, ^^^^ Yeah you tell him alexa, lol.... Boy oh boy....

(myjazz - lol)

Anyway, yeah it's a bit silly, though I don't let it get to me, because I'm sure she wrote it with best intentions, I hardly felt that she typed it because she intentionally wanted to annoy people. Besides it's just some story that she is telling, it's not like she is actually having this conversation. Fairy stories do this kind of thing all the time, it's not really want the message is, I mean she's trying to be sappy and pull on people's heartstrings, it's not meant as something to be taken TOO seriously.

It's cute that you're so passionate about this though. I wonder what your arab husband would say to this blog, .


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## conformità

yes i noo, im not taking it to seriously and iam allowed to discuss things i dont agree with MYJAZZ!!!!!. 


haha my arab husband would give you your camels back card.


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## cardinalfire

no he wouldn't! I'd do him a good deal for you, I'd barter with him until I bought you off him. 

Don't know what i'd swap him. I might have to give him some oil, a jumper and maybe a tenner, which he could exchange and get more for out there.


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## conformità

haha yeah give him some oil that will buy him off haha


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## lovegodess

Sky

&#936; I don't think that all people view women or call women sluts who enjoy many sexual partners. Man men love women who do because they aren't to use your term 'frigid'. In fact, most of the open minded extraverted guys I know *love * sexually promiscious women - they are the babes. My boyfriend knows just how promiscuous I was & I believe it was a turn on for him of anything. Unfortunatly he does have his sexist ways though since he believes a man shouldn't be labelled as 'promiscious' because of his cultural upbringing (European). 

Anyway, at the end of the day, a person who sleeps with _anyone_ is cheap imo regardless of whether they are a guy or a girl. If you like to sleep around with people you are attracted to & have feelings for then all I recommend is to protect yourself from sti's & std's. Otherwise ladies & men, have fun! From what I was aware the 'if you're a girl who sleeps around you're a slut' mentality died out a decade ago in the open minded folk of the civilized nations lol.

&#936; You didn't have to apologize about me nt keeping up. I was trying to give you an ego boost ;-)

&#936; Wow, so you're calling your own sex savage beasts? Well isn't that sexist?? Women can also be savage beasts... equality remember!

&#936; The type of social conditioning you are referring to only exists in non-western countries or small towns where a large pop of the citizens are uneducated & hold on to old school social conventions that are repressing & discriminating. 

&#936; The way my boyfriend has convinced me is that whenever I do a good job at keeping up with the housework he always praises me, cuddles me everytime I cook a nice meal, and generally smiles & shows/tells me how relaxed & happy he is when I take care of most the housework without nagging him to help. He gets in such a hood mood that he even wants to spend more time with me, speaks more politely, & uses more sweet talk. And then I think to myself, well if it means this much to him that it makes him the happiest man alive then maybe it's worth the extra effort to please him so much. How does your partner convince you to do all the housework equally as well as babysit?

&#936; Well whether it's humanly possible is up for debate. A person who is experienced at household chores probably knows all the tricks to getting them done quickly. I've been getting faster & more thorough recently but I still struggle to keep on top of it all even when I'm living alone. It could be cause im rebelling, not trying hard enough, or still not fully decided about whether i think he should help me more or not.


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## skycloud86

> I don't think that all people view women or call women sluts who enjoy many sexual partners. Man men love women who do because they aren't to use your term 'frigid'. In fact, most of the open minded extraverted guys I know love sexually promiscious women - they are the babes.


Exactly, they're open-minded (although I have no idea what being extroverted has to do with anything) and so are more open to such women, but society still has this thing against women who enjoy sex or have many sexual partners.



> My boyfriend knows just how promiscuous I was & I believe it was a turn on for him of anything. Unfortunatly he does have his sexist ways though since he believes a man shouldn't be labelled as 'promiscious' because of his cultural upbringing (European).


I don't understand this - I'm European myself but don't know what you mean by men not being labelled as promiscuous.



> Anyway, at the end of the day, a person who sleeps with anyone is cheap imo regardless of whether they are a guy or a girl. If you like to sleep around with people you are attracted to & have feelings for then all I recommend is to protect yourself from sti's & std's. Otherwise ladies & men, have fun! From what I was aware the 'if you're a girl who sleeps around you're a slut' mentality died out a decade ago in the open minded folk of the civilized nations lol.


Whilst we have moved on in the past few decades, such a mentality still does exist.



> Wow, so you're calling your own sex savage beasts? Well isn't that sexist?? Women can also be savage beasts... equality remember!


I said some men are like savage beasts, not all men.



> The type of social conditioning you are referring to only exists in non-western countries or small towns where a large pop of the citizens are uneducated & hold on to old school social conventions that are repressing & discriminating.


Not really, it's still prevalent in many areas of the West, including big cities.



> The way my boyfriend has convinced me is that whenever I do a good job at keeping up with the housework he always praises me, cuddles me everytime I cook a nice meal, and generally smiles & shows/tells me how relaxed & happy he is when I take care of most the housework without nagging him to help.


Are you sure he's not just relaxed and happy because he loves you? I've never heard of a man saying that he was relaxed and happy simply because his partner did most of the housework. Also, you shouldn't need to nag him and he shouldn't be "helping", he should be adult enough to do his fair share. I think he knows he can get away with it by praising you.



> He gets in such a hood mood that he even wants to spend more time with me, speaks more politely, & uses more sweet talk. And then I think to myself, well if it means this much to him that it makes him the happiest man alive then maybe it's worth the extra effort to please him so much.


No offence, but your partner sounds pathetic and I'm convinced he's exploiting you. 



> How does your partner convince you to do all the housework equally as well as babysit?


I don't currently have a partner, but they wouldn't need to convince me. Probably because I'm a fully grown adult who doesn't see his partner as a second mother. Yes, many if not most men do need to be convinced to do their fair share of the housework, and so they often get away with not doing anything.



> Well whether it's humanly possible is up for debate. A person who is experienced at household chores probably knows all the tricks to getting them done quickly. I've been getting faster & more thorough recently but I still struggle to keep on top of it all even when I'm living alone. It could be cause im rebelling, not trying hard enough, or still not fully decided about whether i think he should help me more or not.


Personally, I think he should be doing more, and I also think from what you've written that you want him to do so.


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## lovegodess

Sky, part 2

&#936; Onviously he is looking after me because he loves me but what I was getting at is that generally speaking males like to be thanked a *lot*, maybe even more so than women. Even most of the links you posted on convincing your man to help more with housework emphasized asking him nicely & thanking & praising him even when he hps a little. 

I'm certain he's not nurturing me when I'm sick because he wants to be thanked or complimented. He is not that type of person & I'm sure he does it genuinely from his heart. But what I'm saying is that when I get better if I'm sick & if after this I keep expecting him to help out with house chores he'll drone on about how he did everything for me while I was sick & instead of thanking him, I'm asking for more - basically implying that I'm selfish.

&#936; In what ways does he sound abusive? He doesn't scream at me/ hit me if a meal doesn't taste nice, he just gets grumpy. He especially *hates* it when the house gets dusty & he'll lecture & nag at me regularly to dust off most of the house. I swear, he has dustophobia!! Lol

&#936; Yes, the majority of males I know have bigger egos than the majority of females I know. It's not that women don't also have big egos is what inwas saying but generally they don't seem to bruise as abruptly as men's egos do. Do you disagree? If so, could you give me an example of the kind of things you think a woman's ego would bruise over? If you think that it would be identical to a males, give me some examples. I'm willing to revise my views here.

&#936; I'm not going to argue the brain structure point with you any further since you're convinced it isn't valid. However when a study has been statistically proven to yeild significant results based on a large population, it is usually given more credit than you are willing to admit. Assume for a minute that the study's results did prove that all women have a smler structure, would this then prove that women & men do actually have different emotional needs?


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## lovegodess

I still don't get why myjazz was so upset about this blog. It's a free forum & we are allowed to discuss what we chose. That's why the blog was made. Im not even getting offended anymore ' I am the op. Lol


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## skycloud86

> Onviously he is looking after me because he loves me but what I was getting at is that generally speaking males like to be thanked a lot, maybe even more so than women. Even most of the links you posted on convincing your man to help more with housework emphasized asking him nicely & thanking & praising him even when he hps a little.


Not all men would need to be asked and praised and thanked like that, but many men will. Society brings up men in a very bad way, and some men probably wouldn't be able to look after themselves.



> I'm certain he's not nurturing me when I'm sick because he wants to be thanked or complimented. He is not that type of person & I'm sure he does it genuinely from his heart. But what I'm saying is that when I get better if I'm sick & if after this I keep expecting him to help out with house chores he'll drone on about how he did everything for me while I was sick & instead of thanking him, I'm asking for more - basically implying that I'm selfish.


But you're not selfish at all, and in fact he is the selfish one because he only helps a lot when you're sick.



> In what ways does he sound abusive? He doesn't scream at me/ hit me if a meal doesn't taste nice, he just gets grumpy. He especially hates it when the house gets dusty & he'll lecture & nag at me regularly to dust off most of the house. I swear, he has dustophobia!! Lol


Abuse can take many forms, and getting moody because your partner didn't do something "right" is emotional abuse. I'm not saying he's as bad as someone who hits their partner, but he is still being abusive via manipulating you by sulking like a child.



> Yes, the majority of males I know have bigger egos than the majority of females I know. It's not that women don't also have big egos is what inwas saying but generally they don't seem to bruise as abruptly as men's egos do. Do you disagree? If so, could you give me an example of the kind of things you think a woman's ego would bruise over? If you think that it would be identical to a males, give me some examples. I'm willing to revise my views here.


I don't think there is any real difference between the ways a male ego and a female ego can get bruised, although I suppose stereotypically, a man losing a competition or being rejected by a woman might bruise his ego, whilst for women it might be public humiliation. That being said, those things could bruise anyone's egos.



> I'm not going to argue the brain structure point with you any further since you're convinced it isn't valid. However when a study has been statistically proven to yeild significant results based on a large population, it is usually given more credit than you are willing to admit. Assume for a minute that the study's results did prove that all women have a smler structure, would this then prove that women & men do actually have different emotional needs?


Yes, it would, but from experience I don't think someone's sex has that much to do with emotional needs, although I will concede that it does influence it.


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## conformità

Love goddess, in my opinion i think you have been brought up in way that you have learned you have to look after others first before looking after yourself. This is why you are now in a relationship with someone who is basically *using* you,, although you cannot see this because subconsciously this is what you believe to be the realistic view of what life can be,, but your husband deep down will see you as a doormat and more than likely cheat on you in the future to* please himself*. That will be the day when he is bored of you( Im not insulting you,, im giving you my opinion of your husband) because he sounds to me very self-centred, very infantile and insensitive. what about when the day comes and you are pregnant ( if you want children that is) is he going to be there for you??


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## conformità

*Not all men would need to be asked and praised and thanked like that, but many men will. Society brings up men in a very bad way, and some men probably wouldn't be able to look after themselves.*

i totally agree with this,,, your spot on.. society makes me sick!


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## lovegodess

&#916; No my course didn't say anything about transexual people but if a man turns himself into a woman I'm assuming he wants to be cisgendered, meaning he feels feminine so he would likely have the female brain structure. The fact that homosexual men had the female structure did not necessarily prove that those men were born with this structure - it may well have been formed as a result of choosing to engage in homosexual behaviour.

&#916; You say that you are not cisgendered & that you are masculine. This is very confusing because earlier you stated that cisgendered people were those whose gender expression corresponds with their bio sex. So if your gender expression is masculine & you're male you must be cisgendered. But then you go on to say that even though you're masculine, your gender expression is neutral. This is incredibly confusing!! Being masculine is in my eyes implying that your gender has a lot more to do with the way you dress or whether you have facial hair.

&#916; Since you believe that men should be able to freely cry as often as women without being deemed feminine, do you also believe then that women should be able to raise their voice & yell & get aggressive & kill people & rape people as often as men do? And I guess mens aggression problems are all conditioning too? Could you explain why 99% of murders are committed by M-E-N? Thanks.

&#916; It could be that we don't like it because of societal expectations but personally I feel it like it's an instinct. Conditioning is more of a mental aspect but if a man is often in tears without any serious explanation then I get a 'gut' feeling that something is not right about this man. Sorry if that sounds bad or if it offends you but many men would probably say the same about angry women types (you know the type to throw tantrums regularly). 

&#916; I don't think the human instinct will ever vanish, at least not anytime soon. It's still paramount to survival of the fittest because human beings are unfortunately far from civilized despite the progression of technology & the apparent increase of societal equality in groups that were previoulsy marginalized. Humans are not computers that can just be reprogramed at the click of a finger. Evolution takes millions of years yonder in & if gender neurtalization is part of nature's plans for us then it will take a long time for humans to behave neutrally without training themselves to go against their natural instincts. IMO if younger gender neutral&#968;, then this is what you are doing.


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## lovegodess

Conformita I understand how it might come across like he is using me but he really isnt. I've never been treated like such a queen in any relationship. He's truely charming & kind & caring. He has had a difficult time with me though & he's become quite passive aggressive. Part of the problem with getting him to help with housework is he has the financial burden on him since I've suffered from compulsive spending for quite some years now so he pays for our mortgage & I try & may for most the food & bills although he always pays much much more. He does have a higher income since he's older & been working longer but he still works extremely hard to ensure both of us have all the luxury we need and more, often working Saturdays & even when he's sick. I love him a lot & I just know that he's not exploiting me. We have had major problems with communication in the past though & we're working on that currently.


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## Aßbiscuits

Nothing is this discussion worthy.


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## purplevelvetmask

Regretibly participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## purplevelvetmask

Regretibly participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## skycloud86

Using the old, I don't like what you have to say so I'm not going to talk to you tactic? Surely you could at least try and respond to my comments in my previous posts.


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## purplevelvetmask

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## skycloud86

> *Actually I never said I don't like what you have to say, I am concerned more with how you are saying it. I'm not about to have a discussion with someone who doesn't give me the same respect I give. You can either stop with the insults or we'll end it here & now. I was enjoying this debate but I'm not about to continue it if you're going to keep calling my boyfriend a child.*


*So someone who sulks if they don't get their own way isn't a child? Someone who whines if they have to do adult things like help with the housework isn't a child? Strange, because that sounds very much like a petulant toddler to me.*

*



He's more man than you'll ever be... so watch your mouth. I have a mouth too... please don't get it started.

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**I'm going to ignore the obvious troll comment.*


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## skycloud86

*



Yes, you are right, there were definitely some deeper issues that were gonna surface & they did. And yes... in some ways culturally I do come from a different place. What about you? Me personally, I am born & raised in Australia to European parents making me bilingual and bicultural in some ways I guess. When I say European I am not talking about England - not that England isn't a part of Europe, but the culture there sure is different from the majority of European culture!

Click to expand...

English culture is no more different to European culture than French culture or Spanish culture or Russian culture. Whilst there are differences, it's not like English culture is totally alien to Europe.




The men in England are nothing like the men I'm talking about, the ones like my boyfriend. Yes, he has the 'take charge' kinda attitude but he's still modern. He's traditional in those ways but maybe that's because it's human nature to have some gender differences. He is by no means as I've already said an old fashioned type regardless that we both believe in gender differences and to some degree gender roles more so than other couples here.

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Everyone believes in gender differences, or else why would there be gender identities? Differences between the biological sexes are also widely believed, although these are far less than gender differences.




Anyway, i am so happy you understand me & you are also a girl who finds this style of man incredibly attractive

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FINFJ is most likely over the age of 13, so she is a woman, not a girl, especially when you use the term man for the male. You are also a woman and not a girl. It says a lot about your ideas of gender roles and sex differences when you refer to yourself as a girl rather than a woman. I don't call myself a boy because I haven't been a boy for over a decade now &#8211; I'm a man.




He got pissed & started yelling how i was irresponsible etc (believe me I was at that age & i also had a mouth on me). Then I was yelling back & said something to piss him off (I don't remember exactly since I was 19 & he was Euro! Lol) & he reacted by slapping me lightly on the cheek. It wasn't a big deal, culturally men do it as much as women over there & it wasn't the first or the last time lol.

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So he got angry and slapped you, yet you seem to think that it's funny or not serious? And it's happened again since? Why do you let him get away with it? Be tougher and tell him that he can't hit you anymore, no matter how soft it is and no matter how angry he is.




Anyway, the person we were visiting must have been watching because he suddenly appeared running up to the car to see if I was ok as if my boyfriend was out of control.

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Good for him. I don't think anyone should hitting the person they supposedly love for no good reason, and there's no good reason at all.




I can't deny however that the majority of Australian men are actually submissive to their wives who excuse me for the expression, actually wear the pants in the house.

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But it would be OK if it was the other way around, if the wives were submissive to their husbands? How do you even define submissive in this context anyway?

Personally, I believe that neither partner should &#8220;wear the pants&#8221; at all, but rather the couple should make decisions together like adults.




I remember another time when we were out on a double date & my sister's husband made an ignorant comment that I'm being dominated by my boyfriend (which isn't actually true since I have a lot of power in our relationship & we also have equal rights). 

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From what you've told us in this thread, that certainly wasn't an ignorant comment and I find it interesting that you seem offended by his comment. Was it a little too close to the truth?




Another time, my boyfriend got upset at something & elbowed me because i was going on about something & he wanted me to shutup. My sister saw him shove me & she was telling me afterwards that she couldn't sleep that night cause she felt sorry for me as if I was being abused or something! Wow, what is the world coming to if elbowing someone is abuse?

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So he got upset at you and used physical force to get you to shut up, and you don't think that's abuse? Does it need to leave a mark or something before you consider it abuse? Your sister was right to be concerned, and I can't believe that you would tolerate this atrocious behaviour from your boyfriend.*


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## Promethea

I tried to find a peaceful way to end this argument between everyone in this blog, and purple, you kept it up. I'm not asking anymore - all of you cut it out, or you get infractions. I'm not even taking time to point out all of the insults here, just end it right now. Its gone on for way too long and it looks like petty arguing rather than intelligent debating. If I could have closed this like I would close a thread, I would have already. Enough is enough. Cease and desist.


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## Promethea

I had it with your trolling way before this, and you need to quit while you are ahead - last warning. Pipe down and stop perpetuating the petty arguments in this blog. There is proof above that *you were looking for it*, so you got it after *goading them back into it*. I won't explain anymore. Next time its an infraction. Walk away like I said.


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## purplevelvetmask

Regrettably participated in this blog and sees no value in past comments here.


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## Promethea

Like I said, this whole argument has run its course, and its over. Let this blog go.


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