# Sx last vs So last awkwardness



## IntrovertHero (Jan 13, 2017)

All is in the title.

Both so last vs sx last would probably look awkward in some social situations, however i'am wondering how would this look for each stacking? How a so last would look different from a sx last?

I'am wondering especially for an 4w5.


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## Krayfish (Nov 3, 2015)

IntrovertHero said:


> All is in the title.
> 
> Both so last vs sx last would probably look awkward in some social situations, however i'am wondering how would this look for each stacking? How a so last would look different from a sx last?
> 
> I'am wondering especially for an 4w5.


I mean, all IVs are prone to being super awkward in social situations, socializing sucks lol. If you're focusing on so blinds and sx lasts though, you'd probably also have to look at syn and contraflow appearance as well.

sp/so: Is awkward because they're very slow to share information about themselves with others. For the socially unkeen, this can manifest as just generally awkward starting and maintaining conversation.

sp/sx: Either shares too much information about themselves too quickly or refuses to share any information at all. Sometimes brash in speech too I guess.

sx/sp: .... Actually I've never met an outwardly awkward sx/sp, they seem to feel awkward on the inside before it shows on the outside. Someone who actually has this stacking could probably provide a better response here.

so/sp: Somewhat unsure about how much information about themselves they're supposed to share or how they'll come across to others, so can appear awkward. Genuinely wants to be liked by certain others, tends to try different social things even if they feel unnatural to them


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

edit to add: just my thoughts, just for fun 

so-last: over there angsting in the corner, ignores social cues, seems to be living their own separate plotline, blunt (without specifically trying to be blunt), wants to connect but doesn't want to/know how to go through steps, might be weirdly earnest


















sx-last: innocent-ish, assumes equality of relationships without taking into account feelings/attractions, not in on the flow or the vibe, strange out-of-place sex jokes, business-like demeanor 


















sp-last: over-sharing, too much flood of energy, like puppy way too excited about things, doesn't check boundaries, seems naively disconnected from reality


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

Nissa Nissa said:


> edit to add: just my thoughts, just for fun
> 
> so-last: over there angsting in the corner, ignores social cues, seems to be living their own separate plotline, blunt (without specifically trying to be blunt), wants to connect but doesn't want to/know how to go through steps, might be weirdly earnest
> 
> ...


According to that I’d be SO last. And the Sx last part would explain why I keep getting frustrated when wanting to date Sp/So.

I dunno Sp last doesn’t sound like me at all.

Also this looks like a Tumblr post lol


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Krayfish said:


> sx/sp: .... Actually I've never met an outwardly awkward sx/sp, they seem to feel awkward on the inside before it shows on the outside. Someone who actually has this stacking could probably provide a better response here.


I'm sx/sp. I'm not socially awkward. I've never met a sx/sp (or any sx dominant) who is socially awkward. I can read social cues. My social blindness is more in not seeing the inherent value of groups and not instinctively seeing how power structures within them play out.

I can fit into social groups easily if I want to, up to the point of authenticity/realness anyway -- fail that and then we must part ways. Comically (or tragically) I seem to still seek intimacy in groups in this sense (honesty -- a form of connecting). Without that I don't see the point. Also 'group think' creeps me out. There can be a depth mismatch. Although I'm not awkward at small talk, internally I'm dying.

With some fellow sx dominants I can throw out the earnestness, say triple things in half sentences and leave understood things unsaid since the (chemical) connection can be effortless, beyond words and we share common views/values. It can be so easy, so alive, so free in a way it never is for me with someone sx blind.

Fwiw my sp/so (sx blind) father isn't socially awkward either. He's better at small talk than I am and seems most comfortable interacting at a shallow depth (he doesn't form deep relationships). I wonder if how social other aspects to personality play into it. He's enneagram 6 (613) ISTJ where I'm a 5 (513) INTJ. I assume things only get awkward for him if a romantic partner became frustrated or someone is expecting him to open up.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

ElectricSlime said:


> According to that I’d be SO last. And the Sx last part would explain why I keep getting frustrated when wanting to date Sp/So.
> 
> I dunno Sp last doesn’t sound like me at all.
> 
> Also this looks like a Tumblr post lol


This, to be clear, calls my post into question, not your typing 
(in my defense was specifically aimed at ways types are awkward, you don't strike me as very awkward person or?)

and true, partly the fault of how much I like gif examples :kitteh:


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

Dare said:


> I'm sx/sp. I'm not socially awkward. I've never met a sx/sp (or any sx dominant) who is socially awkward. I can read social cues. My social blindness is more in not seeing the inherent value of groups and not instinctively seeing how power structures within them play out.


I believe myself to be sx/sp, but I'm very socially awkward and completely blind to social cues. I think this is all individual and not connected to instinctual variant but other factors such as upbringing, social experience, social anxiety, etc. Of course, I could be wrong about my instincts - but I don't think I am.


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

Dare said:


> I'm sx/sp. I'm not socially awkward. I've never met a sx/sp (or any sx dominant) who is socially awkward. I can read social cues. My social blindness is more in not seeing the inherent value of groups and not instinctively seeing how power structures within them play out.
> 
> I can fit into social groups easily if I want to, up to the point of authenticity/realness anyway -- fail that and then we must part ways. Comically (or tragically) I seem to still seek intimacy in groups in this sense (honesty -- a form of connecting). Without that I don't see the point. Also 'group think' creeps me out. There can be a depth mismatch. Although I'm not awkward at small talk, internally I'm dying.
> 
> ...


An INTJ E5 So blindspot who can fit into groups easily... There’s at least one variable there that doesn’t add up.


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

Nissa Nissa said:


> This, to be clear, calls my post into question, not your typing
> (in my defense was specifically aimed at ways types are awkward, you don't strike me as very awkward person or?)
> 
> and true, partly the fault of how much I like gif examples :kitteh:


It’s one or the other :wink:

I’m not awkward so much as disregarding of various mindless social norms and rituals (some of them practically go over my head). I also think you give me too much credit, as I tend to either hog the spotlight and bask in its glory or brood in the corner. Group contexts where people discuss insides and acquaintances I’m not familiar with are the bane of my social skills, then again that’s probably the case for many.

In any case, violating people’s boundaries without meaning to and appearing naive and irresponsible... isn’t me. Blunt and individualistic douchebag I can roll with.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

ElectricSlime said:


> It’s one or the other :wink:
> 
> I’m not awkward so much as disregarding of various mindless social norms and rituals (some of them practically go over my head). I also think you give me too much credit, as I tend to either hog the spotlight and bask in its glory or brood in the corner. Group contexts where people discuss insides and acquaintances I’m not familiar with are the bane of my social skills, then again that’s probably the case for many.
> 
> In any case, violating people’s boundaries without meaning to and appearing naive and irresponsible... isn’t me. Blunt and individualistic douchebag I can roll with.


(But don't you sorta value that image?)
I don't know; you talk about social things quite a bit and self-pres things almost never, thing I said about sp-lasts was also heavily skewed to positive types and especially 7s lol, don't really think many 6w5 sx/sos would be like that 

edit: but I'm not horribly against the possibility, just don't see it at the present moment


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

I define awkwardness as a trait that is rooted in how you are being perceived by others rather than in who you are. I can tell you that I do feel awkward at times but others often perceive me differently. That being said, as an so-blind type myself, I cannot tell you how this awkwardness comes across. It's in the eye of the beholder.

But, there are qualities that I've observed in sx-lasts that may or may not boil over into awkwardness depending on the context and how the person plays things off. They tend to come across as very tightly wound and controlled (but not necessarily like they're "holding back"), almost unnatural, but not necessarily insincere (that would depend on the person), sometimes smooth but not very "flowy," often polite but with a businesslike quality to them. They're certainly not what I would describe as raw - they're whatever is on the opposite end of the spectrum. At worst, the more reserved ones and the sp/so types in particular, seem a little robotic to me. The more outgoing ones tend to be more playful (especially when the dominant instinct is so). 

I will point out that I've never met a socially awkward so/sp. Some of them could check every single point I've mentioned and still somehow come across as rather charming.

EDIT: Just remembered something I've noticed in some sx-lasts - while many of them tend to be incredibly private, others tend to share information about themselves freely if they find it useful in context. I don't know how to explain it other than that it seems that they put the intimate stuff and the impersonal stuff in the same mixing pot, and I don't think they even realize that they do it.


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## ElectricSlime (Nov 25, 2016)

Nissa Nissa said:


> (But don't you sorta value that image?)
> I don't know; you talk about social things quite a bit and self-pres things almost never, thing I said about sp-lasts was also heavily skewed to positive types and especially 7s lol, don't really think many 6w5 sx/sos would be like that
> 
> edit: but I'm not horribly against the possibility, just don't see it at the present moment


Then rework those definitions :angry:

And no it’s not image related, though it’s a trait that I do value about myself. I mean I could talk about how I’m better at saving money than my friends, but it doesn’t make for very interesting convo :/


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

ElectricSlime said:


> Then rework those definitions :angry:


This is it, reworking them, they weren't supposed to be an absolute statement but part of the discussion :ghost:



> And no it’s not image related, though it’s a trait that I do value about myself. I mean I could talk about how I’m better at saving money than my friends, but it doesn’t make for very interesting convo :/


Well, maybe talking about boring things would help though I mean oc there are other factors in saving money, you know that, but if the motivation and impetus is really there

(you still seem more sx/so to me, but I also feel like I have a weird picture of sx/sp and so-last in general that it's hard to shake out of my head so I might just be very bad at identifying these vibes)

edit: ugh wondering about sp/so, this kind of thing reminds me
(Flower Hat you don't have to read it, just rambling because it reminded me)



Flower Hat said:


> I define awkwardness as a trait that is rooted in how you are being perceived by others rather than in who you are. I can tell you that I do feel awkward at times but others often perceive me differently. That being said, as an so-blind type myself, I cannot tell you how this awkwardness comes across. It's in the eye of the beholder.


Haha, I think there is an objective awkwardness though, there are some people who just don't come off graceful or charming whatever they do (would include myself usually haha)



> But, there are qualities that I've observed in sx-lasts that may or may not boil over into awkwardness depending on the context and how the person plays things off. *They tend to come across as very tightly wound and controlled* (but not necessarily like they're "holding back"), almost unnatural, but not necessarily insincere (that would depend on the person), sometimes smooth but* not very "flowy," often polite but with a businesslike quality to them. They're certainly not what I would describe as raw - they're whatever is on the opposite end of the spectrum. *At worst, the more reserved ones and the sp/so types in particular, seem a little robotic to me. *The more outgoing ones tend to be more playful* (especially when the dominant instinct is so).


I'm so mechanical-seeming, friend once told me it was like I lived under a rock and then went to finishing school, pretty much describes perfectly how I come off, I'm way too formal and come off really tense, people always tell me I don't seem comfortable, or some similar things, feel like I really lack flow, I'm very blocky and this kind of thing



> EDIT: Just remembered something I've noticed in some sx-lasts - while many of them tend to be incredibly private, others tend to share information about themselves freely if they find it useful in context. I don't know how to explain it other than that it seems that they put the intimate stuff and the impersonal stuff in the same mixing pot, and I don't think they even realize that they do it.


Think I do this too, remember putting some weird too personal things in like school papers in some situations, feel like I tell sad or personal stories too quickly, like there's supposed to be a certain level of drunkenness before you talk about some things and I always try to push the limit, don't have a lot of filter for what I share

_______________

I mean I'm so awkward, want to talk to people but can never negotiate how often to look at people or anything, always struggling with that kind of thing way more than anyone else, I mean it's fine with people I'm comfortable with but I always want someone else's support whenever I go to talk to anyone, always saying like 'ok I'll only go if you go' because I can't figure out how to be at events by myself, feels like I'm dying if no one's talking to me, there's just a general lack of flow and I'm always in a panic for what to say (and it's EXTREMELY obvious), someone was telling me the other day like 'you just say yes or no to things' and I could only apologize a lot, scratching my whole brain to think of something additional, then when I do talk feel like things come out in the wrong order or whatever, it's just a whole disaster, my entire existence for a great portion of humanity is just a terrified apologetic nothing, even my close friends would always tease me because if I was going to their house I'd always be so terrified I was coming on the wrong day and they didn't want me then

and awkward in other ways, sometimes I err the other way and say something too flippant or I guess personal or something, idk

not sure it's instinct related though, think I'm kinda just a weird person XD but it fits in sx-last category best I think


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

ElectricSlime said:


> An INTJ E5 So blindspot who can fit into groups easily... There’s at least one variable there that doesn’t add up.


Don't forget the "if I want to" join a group (rarely do) and the "internally dying" (where there is a mismatch) aspects. Or that sx is the countertype for 5s.

I don't know if the A that belongs at the end of my INTJ is a factor. I'm naturally confident and relaxed. For the most part I don't care what people think of me. Although I've learned it's more effective to sometimes switch off my blunt Te talk when talking socially.

Although I'm confident about my type (I'm _such_ a 5, albeit a relatively healthy one, _such_ a sx/sp and _always_ test as INTJ), I'm open to hearing ideas anyone has about it.


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## Mr Castelo (May 28, 2017)

I believe that social awkwardness goes beyond the variants, but as an sx-last, I most often experience "awkwardness" in intimate/personal situations (feeling exposed/stupid/clueless). I've had pretty bad social anxiety in the past, so I did experience awkwardness in social situations too, but it's less intense, and I can just shrug it off if it's not too bad. I'm not sure how so-last people would experience social awkwardness, and I actually think they're often not that awkward in social situations... At most, it just feels like they're out of synch with the group.



Nissa Nissa said:


> edit to add: just my thoughts, just for fun
> 
> so-last: over there angsting in the corner, ignores social cues, seems to be living their own separate plotline, blunt (without specifically trying to be blunt), wants to connect but doesn't want to/know how to go through steps, might be weirdly earnest
> 
> ...


So according to that I'm more so-last than sx-last... Although, granted, the innocent quality and business-like demeanor is pretty true for me. I don't think there is any correlation between so-last and being angsty, or being specially asocial, or blunt (or even earnest). I know that you were doing a stereotypical display of the variants, though, just wanted to give my thoughts.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Mr Castelo said:


> So according to that I'm more so-last than sx-last... Although, granted, the innocent quality and business-like demeanor is pretty true for me. I don't think there is any correlation between so-last and being angsty, or being specially asocial, or blunt (or even earnest). I know that you were doing a stereotypical display of the variants, though, just wanted to give my thoughts.


surely a little, with being asocial?
but yeah, I have almost no idea what so-last is supposed to be like, main thing that struck me is that some so-lasts at least seem to be crossing diagonally over things, like they're in the room and talking but have a different object, I mean that's technically true for 95% of people but sometimes there's a strong sense that someone's not...attached to same page at all? but hard to explain and probably not worth it))


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## nep2une (Jun 15, 2017)

ElectricSlime said:


> And no it’s not image related, though it’s a trait that I do value about myself. I mean I could talk about how I’m better at saving money than my friends, but it doesn’t make for very interesting convo :/


Money can be sexy, though. I mean. Luxury. Indulgence. 

If you talk about anything the right way, it can potentially be made interesting.


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## Mr Castelo (May 28, 2017)

Nissa Nissa said:


> surely a little, with being asocial?


I guess so, I'm just wary of making that connection because a lot of people seem to think that if you're a loner or asocial, it's a sign of Social-last. Now I do believe that there is a correlation between asocial behavior and being Social-last, it is just not something exclusive (or special) to it.



> but yeah, I have almost no idea what so-last is supposed to be like, main thing that struck me is that some so-lasts at least seem to be crossing diagonally over things, like they're in the room and talking but have a different object, I mean that's technically true for 95% of people but sometimes there's a strong sense that someone's not...attached to same page at all? but hard to explain and probably not worth it))


I think you're correct in your assessment. I believe that being Social-last is mainly about a lack of focus on group dynamics, hierarchies, and social structures, so they might feel like they're disconnected from those, or not even be aware of them in the first place (which might give the feeling that they're completely on another page in relation to the group, or that they make no effort to be in the same page).


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## IntrovertHero (Jan 13, 2017)

Nissa Nissa said:


> I mean I'm so awkward, want to talk to people but can never negotiate how often to look at people or anything, always struggling with that kind of thing way more than anyone else, I mean it's fine with people I'm comfortable with but I always want someone else's support whenever I go to talk to anyone, always saying like 'ok I'll only go if you go' because I can't figure out how to be at events by myself, feels like I'm dying if no one's talking to me, there's just a general lack of flow and I'm always in a panic for what to say (and it's EXTREMELY obvious), someone was telling me the other day like 'you just say yes or no to things' and I could only apologize a lot, scratching my whole brain to think of something additional, then when I do talk feel like things come out in the wrong order or whatever, it's just a whole disaster, my entire existence for a great portion of humanity is just a terrified apologetic nothing, even my close friends would always tease me because if I was going to their house I'd always be so terrified I was coming on the wrong day and they didn't want me then
> 
> and awkward in other ways, sometimes I err the other way and say something too flippant or I guess personal or something, idk
> 
> not sure it's instinct related though, think I'm kinda just a weird person XD but it fits in sx-last category best I think


I know this is a bit out of context, but do you have ever looked up for a Asperger's syndrome diagnosis? Because i had the same issues you seem to have and ended with this diagnostic, it made a lot of things clearer for me.


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

Nissa Nissa said:


> Haha, I think there is an objective awkwardness though, there are some people who just don't come off graceful or charming whatever they do (would include myself usually haha)


I mean... I think I was incorrect in describing awkwardness as being "in the eye of the beholder," but what I wasn't explaining too well is that it's others who decide whether you're awkward or not. It's about your behaviour and someone else's perception of it, rather than coming from inside of you, and that's why I find it difficult to decide whether I'm awkward or not.

If I had to guess, I'd say I'm rarely awkward, but that I tend to _feel_ awkward without seeming to show it more often. My most bubbly and charming sister says that I'm not awkward, just reserved. I've been told by many people that I'm quite natural _because_ of my being unaware of how I come across, so I guess I'll take their words for it.

For what it's worth, I'm so-blind, and I really do mean _blind_. I don't think that makes me awkward. I mean, I occasionally blurt out things that I probably shouldn't be saying, but I think that a lot of people do this.



> I'm so mechanical-seeming, friend once told me it was like I lived under a rock and then went to finishing school, pretty much describes perfectly how I come off, I'm way too formal and come off really tense, people always tell me I don't seem comfortable, or some similar things, feel like I really lack flow, I'm very blocky and this kind of thing


I was definitely stereotyping, but I do strongly associate sx-last with "mechanical." I don't think that sx-lasts come across as "uncomfortable" usually, just "stiff." It's one of the reasons why I tend to see them as controlled, but not as though they're holding back - I associate this more with having sx higher in the stacking, especially in so-blinds. sx-lasts seem collected, like they know what they want to share and what they don't. so and sp-lasts tend to seem like they're not quite as sure whether or not to say or do something, like they're withholding information or like they're resisting the urge to say or do something. 



> Think I do this too, remember putting some weird too personal things in like school papers in some situations, feel like I tell sad or personal stories too quickly, like there's supposed to be a certain level of drunkenness before you talk about some things and I always try to push the limit, don't have a lot of filter for what I share


Oh, I should have been more clear there. Sorry. 

I tend to share personal information without meaning to impulsively at times, if it relates to something in the topic of conversation, but I think I should have pointed out that it seems that some sx-lasts willingly, consciously share information without even seeming to realize just how intimate it is. I've built some relationships over the years with people who seemed like they didn't care just who they shared their feelings with because it didn't really mean anything to them to share or to have information shared with them. I've found that sx-firsts and seconds attach more value to sharing personal information, because the more information you're sharing, the deeper you're going. 

A former friend of mine would share her insecurities and feelings with our entire classroom, and still somehow form no attachment to 90% of the people there despite the fact that they knew about these intimate parts of her. I've also had the experience of being further along in relationships with people than they are with me, because when they'd share something very personal with me and I'd consider that to mean that we're getting closer, but somehow it seemed that they were emotionally in the same place as before, like they were emotionally detached from the information they were sharing. The weird thing is that a lot of them considered themselves very private with how they deal with their feelings, and perhaps they were, but in a different way to me which is why I failed to understand them. All I know is that if I'm sharing personal information with somebody or they're doing that with me, I'm _going_ to form an attachment to them, and it seems like sx-lasts can't separate the personal from impersonal. They'll make an offhand comment about these deep feelings have been nagging them for years and when I point out that they've just willingly shared intimate stuff about themselves, they'll be like, "Me? Vulnerable? Never."

Not sure I've explained that correctly, and for all I know, it might not have anything to do with instincts. I think this sorta thing is easy for me to notice because I tend to get attached to people easily, and I think that it's easier to share personal things with others when you're on the opposite end of the spectrum. 



> I mean I'm so awkward, *want to talk to people* but can never negotiate how often to look at people or anything, always *struggling with that kind of thing way more than anyone else*, I mean *it's fine with people I'm comfortable *with but I always want someone else's support whenever I go to talk to anyone, always saying like *'ok I'll only go if you go' because I can't figure out how to be at events by myself, feels like I'm dying if no one's talking to me*, there's just a general lack of flow and I'm always in a panic for what to say (and it's EXTREMELY obvious), someone was telling me the other day like 'you *just say yes or no to things' and I could only apologize a lot*, scratching my whole brain to think of something additional, then *when I do talk feel like things come out in the wrong order *or whatever, it's just a whole disaster, my entire existence for a great portion of humanity is just a terrified apologetic nothing, even my close friends would always tease me because if I was going to their house I'd always be so terrified I was coming on the wrong day and they didn't want me then
> 
> and awkward in other ways, sometimes I err the other way and say something too flippant or I guess personal or something, idk
> 
> not sure it's instinct related though, think I'm kinda just a weird person XD but it fits in sx-last category best I think


I'm not sure any of this, or even awkwardness at all, is instincts-related either, and I think my brain has mostly just made a bunch of associations which could be very far from the truth and has definitely been clouded by my own perceptions and understanding of the instincts and of other people. 

I do want to say that I can relate to everything in bold, *BUT* I don't tend to feel scared or awkward and I don't think think that I come across awkward either because I don't really worry about how I come across or freak out about what I'm going to say. I like things to flow, and if it's not happening naturally, I'm not going to force a conversation because I really hate it when people try to force conversations with me. I don't like socializing for the sake of socializing and I don't like feeling like someone is bullshitting me; when I'm talking to someone, unless it's because one of us needs something like directions to a certain place or whatever, I either have to feel like the conversation itself is really stimulating or like we're both interested in getting to know each other, and if that's not coming naturally, I'd rather just end the conversation and walk away. I prefer not to be alone, but I'd definitely prefer to be all alone than to force something that's not there, although it depends on the situation. In a classroom, I'd prefer to have friends to talk to and to provide a sense of relief from the workload, but I don't mind being alone if I'm not really clicking with anybody. In a more social setting, like a party, I really don't like to be alone because I can't have fun in that kind of situation on my own. 

Anyway, I guess I was rambling too, and I'm not sure if anything I've said is even worth noting, but for anybody still wondering about awkwardness in so-lasts, I guess here's something to ponder on.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

I'm 4w5 so/sp.

Sx last for me always made me cringe at college parties when people played drinking games that revolved around sharing their most explicit sex stories, then the question would get turned to me and I would gulp in fear and say something like "Never have I ever been on a hot air balloon?" And I would kill the whole vibe by bringing up something innocent and non sex related.

And being an Fi-dom who wants intimacy Sx-last seems to get in the way of getting intimacy. Like when I am in a group, my So can catch who the head honcho is, and also what's missing in the group and what unique thing I can bring to the table, I cna find my niche in a group so to speak, which is fun, but in a group it can't really get past the surface because not everyone can know you deeply, and I feel like trying to reach out to individuals when I'm in a group, 1. I feel bad because I'm not treating everyone fairly and people might think I'm partial to other's over others and 2. I feel like if I try to get intimate with someone it's like too much, or inappropriate like people don't care to know you that much. And sometimes it's hard to find the topics to dive deep with so I ask stupid surface questions hoping the person just bites on something and unloads themselves to me.

My Fi seeking intimacy and my Sx last not knowing how to get the intimacy causes me to try and get help from people who reach out on that intimate level.

Me being So first, if I'm being honest, fitting into a group most of the time just happens by accident for me, if I stand still for long enough then BAM I'm in a group. But intimate raw encounters with one perosn, man, usually when I am drunk it all comes pouring out, all the things I can't and don't say when my mind is right lol. But I do love those moments because they are so rare. 

@Flower Hat
*"I wonder if, for example, there may be so/sp types who'd grown up with very strong attachments to certain people in their lives and had at times found these attachments overbearing or something and thought that they took away from what they perceived as more important things, such as in securing your place within a social network (or whatever it is the social instinct does). "*


Idk. As sx-last I feel like being considered someone important in a social group is on my mind so much that I forget I need intimacy, but there is this subconscious feeling that I need to take care of that part of my life also because it's so neglected, and when I do have a close bond with someone it doesn't feel overbearing though, but perhaps it feels extra special than it should since it's not really common, rare in fact, and maybe the sx person is like "I have deeper relations with other people than you, this is normal for me." While I'm sitting there like, wow I've never felt this before lol. 

I knew an ENTP woman, she was like a mother to me, I imagine she was sx first, very blunt often saying things that disrupted or disturbed the group, unintentionally causing strife, but when we spoke it was like a little bubble between us and everybody was gone, and one time she said goodbye to our group as she was leaving and she just came and hugged me without saying goodbye and just put her head on the side of my head and just rocked with me hugging for like a 3 straight minutes. The feeling I felt was akin to a piercing white light on my insides, knowing I had been singled out of the group like that because she saw me differently than the others. Very life giving feeling to say the least.

I also remember when my seasonal job ended, in our group of co-workers I had solidified myself as the funny outgoing guy (even though really introverted outside the group). I put on my social butterfly hat and chatted up various co-workers so each person would get a feel for who I was (in the group). And it worked, but after awhile it just seemed like I didn't want to make friends with any one person and I just wanted the majority of people to think I was cool, (I did and it mostly stemmed from the fear of looking socially awkward, I wanted to show that I wasn't). At the end of my seasonal job, I realized, I would never seen these people again, and I had made no strong bonds or meaning for relationships, and my seasonal job felt so empty and pointless, like I spent all this time with these people and none of them really know me and I don't know them, they were in my life and now they are gone, I felt like trying to connect with people on the very last day would appear inappropriate and sort of desperate. No meaningful goodbyes, not even empty promises of hanging out. 

Idk. I fear alot "Am I ever gonna feel that with someone." And I have felt that with people, but like I mean are they gonna be around for good. 

I also don't think upbringing influences instincts, I think you just recognize your instinct through how you choose to handle or react to something. 






Flower Hat said:


> I define awkwardness as a trait that is rooted in how you are being perceived by others rather than in who you are. I can tell you that I do feel awkward at times but others often perceive me differently. That being said, as an so-blind type myself, I cannot tell you how this awkwardness comes across. It's in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> But, there are qualities that I've observed in sx-lasts that may or may not boil over into awkwardness depending on the context and how the person plays things off. They tend to come across as very tightly wound and controlled (but not necessarily like they're "holding back"), almost unnatural, but not necessarily insincere (that would depend on the person), sometimes smooth but not very "flowy," often polite but with a businesslike quality to them. They're certainly not what I would describe as raw - they're whatever is on the opposite end of the spectrum. At worst, the more reserved ones and the sp/so types in particular, seem a little robotic to me. *The more outgoing ones tend to be more playful (especially when the dominant instinct is so). *
> 
> ...


Yup. That's exactly how I feel. Alot of the times I put on the charm in fear of looking socially inept though lol. I have reached some incredible heights of charm all due to fear lol. Cause you know, you don't want to be that guy that everyone thinks can't hold a conversation to hold his life #SOproblems lol.

But yea, I used to be a wall flower, then I saw how much people make fun of people being a wallflower, so I realized I didn't want to be made fun of so I try to resist being a wallflower by engaging with various people in the group to make it look like I'm cool and not a wallflower. But I secretly want to reach in depth with someone but fear that no one really cares enough and i would make others uncomfortable to get to that level. But then when someone does get to that level with me sometimes it's not the person I want to get in-depth with and they just sort of unload on me, and I'm like, I want this but not with you looooooool. Like I want it with someone who means something to me.


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## Asd456 (Jul 25, 2017)

Lord Pixel said:


> Like when I am in a group, my So can catch who the head honcho is, and also what's missing in the group and what unique thing I can bring to the table, I cna find my niche in a group so to speak, which is fun, but in a group it can't really get past the surface because not everyone can know you deeply


What happens when you find the head honcho? Do you try to dethrone him/her? Is this person regarded more highly, deserving of more attention? Does it make you more competitive? 

I also don't understand this niche thing in a group ("this niche thing" smh lol, I really am clueless). I imagine it's a strong focus on what you can offer the group, your area of expertise to stand out (?) and/or contribute.

Clearly, I am So-last and have no idea what's going on in group situations...



Lord Pixel said:


> My Fi seeking intimacy and my Sx last not knowing how to get the intimacy causes me to try and get help from people who reach out on that intimate level.


This is interesting, I understand and relate to this. I imagine it's polarizing being an INFP with lead Fi and Sx-last at the same time. As an ENTJ, my Fi is weak but I'm also Sx-first. It feels like a contradiction. If I'm being honest with myself, compared to the average ENTJ I do think I'm too passionate, too intense, too emotional. What I'm constantly looking for is to find close connections, something significant and meaningful and I often find myself trying to put a lid on my Sx because it brings out my Fi, which makes me uncomfortable.



Lord Pixel said:


> Me being So first, if I'm being honest, fitting into a group most of the time just happens by accident for me, if I stand still for long enough then BAM I'm in a group.


:laughing: Wow, can't say the same for me. Honestly, I don't feel like I can fit in with groups, I often feel like an outlier in groups. 



Lord Pixel said:


> As sx-last I feel like being considered someone important in a social group is on my mind so much that I forget I need intimacy,


Why do you want to be considered someone important in a social group?



Lord Pixel said:


> but there is this subconscious feeling that I need to take care of that part of my life also because it's so neglected, and when I do have a close bond with someone it doesn't feel overbearing though, but perhaps it feels extra special than it should since it's not really common, rare in fact, and maybe the sx person is like "I have deeper relations with other people than you, this is normal for me." While I'm sitting there like, wow I've never felt this before lol.


Interesting. I know an ISTJ type 1 So/Sp, can't say the same for her. It's never something extra special, it's cringe-and-discomfort-get-away-from-me-long-pause-face lol 



Lord Pixel said:


> I knew an ENTP woman, she was like a mother to me, I imagine she was sx first, very blunt often saying things that disrupted or disturbed the group, unintentionally causing strife, but when we spoke it was like a little bubble between us and everybody was gone, and one time she said goodbye to our group as she was leaving and she just came and hugged me without saying goodbye and just put her head on the side of my head and just rocked with me hugging for like a 3 straight minutes. The feeling I felt was akin to a piercing white light on my insides, knowing I had been singled out of the group like that because she saw me differently than the others. Very life giving feeling to say the least.


Interesting, do you know if she's Sx/Sp or Sx/So? I definitely do this bubble thing without even realizing it. I just don't pay attention to everyone, or I can't because it feels overwhelming. It's like paying attention to everyone in the group individually, separately, all at the same time. I imagine it's a different process for you, maybe it's less intense because you're able to view everyone as this one collective group, instead of individually and separately.



Lord Pixel said:


> I also remember when my seasonal job ended, in our group of co-workers I had solidified myself as the funny outgoing guy (even though really introverted outside the group). I put on my social butterfly hat and chatted up various co-workers so each person would get a feel for who I was (in the group). And it worked, but after awhile it just seemed like I didn't want to make friends with any one person and I just wanted the majority of people to think I was cool, (I did and it mostly stemmed from the fear of looking socially awkward, I wanted to show that I wasn't). At the end of my seasonal job, *I realized, I would never seen these people again, and I had made no strong bonds or meaning for relationships, and my seasonal job felt so empty and pointless, like I spent all this time with these people and none of them really know me and I don't know them, they were in my life and now they are gone, I felt like trying to connect with people on the very last day would appear inappropriate and sort of desperate. No meaningful goodbyes, not even empty promises of hanging out.*


Same, my thinking is I'll never see them again so why bother or if I actually try to befriend someone, it's always because I see something potentially there. So in this situation, I don't mind if I look socially awkward. Something I need to work on.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Asd456 said:


> What happens when you find the head honcho? Do you try to dethrone him/her? Is this person regarded more highly, deserving of more attention? Does it make you more competitive?


Quite the opposite actually, I recognize who the head honcho is and realize if I try to steal their shine there wil be a fight so I either befriend them to create an alliance or I show myself as an equal so they do't treat me like the group. That is how I extinguish competition by respecting their position and providing value to it or not challenging it. I tyr to align with them somehow so they now I am not a threat.(It is also much easier to dethrone them that way lol, but I'd hate to see someone get dethroned).

And this person is usually the one in control of the activity people are doing, like the person who hosted the party, or is telling the best jokes, or invited everyone to the movies, people follow them for some reason.




Asd456 said:


> I also don't understand this niche thing in a group ("this niche thing" smh lol, I really am clueless). I imagine it's a strong focus on what you can offer the group, your area of expertise to stand out (?) and/or contribute.


Yes, every time i am in a group there are usually roles that are filled. Head honcho, head honchos friends/fans/subordinates, entertainer (funny guy), quiet person, etc all kinds or roles that exist in groups and I can usually see the roles that aren't filled and choose a role to fill. Like in a room filled with serious people I can tell there needs to be someone who can lighten the mood, I become that person and it sort of beocmes my niche because everytime I come around that group they expect me to make them laugh and lighten the mood. Or a gorup of silly people I recognize they need some one serious, I can fill that role and everytime I come around my niche is the guy who people go to when they are trying to have a serious conversation. I even recognize this in crowds at a sports game, every crowd needs a guy that can whistle with his fingers lol, so when they cheer you always here some loud whistle in the back round lol, crowds just don't feel as exciting without that whistle lol.





Asd456 said:


> This is interesting, I understand and relate to this. I imagine it's polarizing being an INFP with lead Fi and Sx-last at the same time. As an ENTJ, my Fi is weak but I'm also Sx-first. It feels like a contradiction. If I'm being honest with myself, compared to the average ENTJ I do think I'm too passionate, too intense, too emotional. What I'm constantly looking for is to find close connections, something significant and meaningful and I often find myself trying to put a lid on my Sx because it brings out my Fi, which makes me uncomfortable.


That is pretty interesting how your Sx activates your Fi like that. And yea Fi first and Sx last feels much a game of tug-o-war with yourself. I feel that dormant seeking of close connections, but I also feel lost as to how to obtain it. I feel like if I did try to obtain it I would just be pressing people in an uncomfortable way. My So is always looking for recognition int he group, like to see if I mean something to the group of people I am around, would the group be the same if I was gone what do I contribute? What is my purpose in the group? But m y Fi wants to feel deeper and more intimate emotions with someone and you cannot get that from group recognition, everybody just gets a piece of you but no one gets the whole you, and it just sucks lol. One drive towards reputation and one drive towards closeness and they both fight each other. Two strong opposing drives.





Asd456 said:


> :laughing: Wow, can't say the same for me. Honestly, I don't feel like I can fit in with groups, I often feel like an outlier in groups.


I have noticed some Sx people appear like an outlier in groups yea, it seems like some of them are unsure how to fit in with the rest. And it can look standoff-ish to the uniformed. Idk, some Sx people i just want to show them it's ok to join in lol. And sometimes I have been an outlier but it once again fit into my idea that I am just fulfilling the role of outlier because alot of groups have that one person who doesn't fit in or follow the head honcho.




Asd456 said:


> Why do you want to be considered someone important in a social group?


It says So types want to feel like they have a group to belong to And I relate to that aspect of So alot. Like I feel like I keep searching for a group of people that feel like home, a group of people that I mean alot to and it would not be the same if I was gone, a group of people that would miss my presence and embrace me warmly when I come back. It just feels amazing to have that family where you are recognized and a significant member of. Also i think as an Fi-dom sometimes I hinge my identity on who I am to the group. When I am the funny guy in the group I am often seen as a character, every time I come around people are expecting to laugh, I like the idea that I bring something to the group that identifies me as different. Also if I am not recognized in a group I care about, I often feel like a grain of sand in a desert, insignificant, purposeless, like I mean nothing to the world around me, and I will slowly drift away from that group to another group where I can add value.




Asd456 said:


> Interesting. I know an ISTJ type 1 So/Sp, can't say the same for her. It's never something extra special, it's cringe-and-discomfort-get-away-from-me-long-pause-face lol


This probably also is amplified with lower Fi. I feel this way when someone I don't want getting to know me tries to pry info out of me. I have also experienced this when in a group, people want you to share with the group, I'm like wtf no I only would say those things one on one not in a huge group setting, because my So is aware that if share certain details with myself people might se me differently, treat me differently and perhaps judge me in ways I don't want to be judged. I've been in groups where the "head honcho" would ask the entire group "What has been the hardest thing you've dealt with in your life?" And yes I cringee-get away from me- face them.

But in a relationship or someone I want to bond with, or even a close friend, I usually want to get to that level of depth and it's nice when it's recieved well but sometimes I'm not sure how much is too much so I wait for someone else to create the pace.




Asd456 said:


> Interesting, do you know if she's Sx/Sp or Sx/So? I definitely do this bubble thing without even realizing it. I just don't pay attention to everyone, or I can't because it feels overwhelming. It's like paying attention to everyone in the group individually, separately, all at the same time. I imagine it's a different process for you, maybe it's less intense because you're able to view everyone as this one collective group, instead of individually and separately.


I think she was Sx/so. That is interesting, so you feel like when you look at a group of 10 people at a rock band you see 10 individual people attending a rock band, that is interesting lol. I probably would see a group of rock music fans, and then see how I fit in that group, since I am not a rock music fan I would probably naturally be put in the role of rock music newbie, people in the group would feel the need to educate me on good rock music lol. But then I see a cute girl I would want to get to know more, and I am at a complete loss lol because I'm too busy entertaining the group with my lack of rock knowledge, and if I approached her I would approach her with my established role of rock music newbie.

I think when the ENTP woman creates that bubble with me the phenomenon of it is probably amplified because as an INFP type 4 it's known that we like to be "unique and special." And with that complex combined with someone specifically picking you out of the crowd and treating you and only with with favor, it just sparks up all those feelings if "I'm unique and special and someone likes me for it." and the feeling is truly satisfying lol. So yea I am a sucker for Sx. It makes me feel special lol.

So do you just pick a person out of a group and focus on them and getting to know them? And how do you choose who to pick?




Asd456 said:


> Same, my thinking is I'll never see them again so why bother or if I actually try to befriend someone, it's always because I see something potentially there. So in this situation, I don't mind if I look socially awkward. Something I need to work on.


Yea, I think when that job ended I realized trying so much to be recognized as someone special in the group doesn't not guarantee meaningful relationships with people. I feel like I am trying to get Sx depth through So means and it's not working. If I see potential with someone it's still a challenge for me to try and befriend them in a group setting, one on one is a little easier, but in a group setting I'm so preoccupied with what my identity is in the group I don't stop and try and dive deeper with anyone person, I make efforts to befriend or impress the head honcho or boss to be recognized as an ally not enemy or a valuable equal (and that tactic is also me trying to establish who I am to the group, if you are good with the head honcho then the group respects you, but you also can't be a teachers pet so it's a fine line to walk.) or if there is no head honcho I slowly try to gain the groups respect to acknowledge me as head honcho, and then when I see that cute girl I want to single out and talk to one on one, I am at a complete loss because if I talk to her in the group and get rejected I look like the guy that got rejected by her, yea too preoccupied with socal dynamics, it works best if an Sx person comes and bubbles me in, it helps clear my mind of the social noise of the group.


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## Asd456 (Jul 25, 2017)

Lord Pixel said:


> Quite the opposite actually, I recognize who the head honcho is and realize if I try to steal their shine there wil be a fight so I either befriend them to create an alliance or I show myself as an equal so they do't treat me like the group. That is how I extinguish competition by respecting their position and providing value to it or not challenging it. I tyr to align with them somehow so they now I am not a threat.(It is also much easier to dethrone them that way lol, but I'd hate to see someone get dethroned).
> 
> And this person is usually the one in control of the activity people are doing, like the person who hosted the party, or is telling the best jokes, or invited everyone to the movies, people follow them for some reason.


I see, not sure why my first thought was to dethrone the head honcho (guess that's the ENTJ or Sexual 6 showing lol).

I understand the benefits of having a leader/head honcho in a group but I just don't like the idea of someone in charge with more authority and power over the rest of the group because it feels like an imbalance of power. I understand what you're saying though.



Lord Pixel said:


> Yes, every time i am in a group there are usually roles that are filled. Head honcho, head honchos friends/fans/subordinates, entertainer (funny guy), quiet person, etc all kinds or roles that exist in groups and I can usually see the roles that aren't filled and choose a role to fill. Like in a room filled with serious people I can tell there needs to be someone who can lighten the mood, I become that person and it sort of beocmes my niche because everytime I come around that group they expect me to make them laugh and lighten the mood. Or a gorup of silly people I recognize they need some one serious, I can fill that role and everytime I come around my niche is the guy who people go to when they are trying to have a serious conversation.


I've heard about this role thing in groups before. I imagine the reason it's important to have roles in a group is because it's used as an identifier for that person in the group to symbolize their place in the group, and it is important for everyone to be part of something bigger than themselves (the collective group) but what happens if the roles change or what if some of the roles are bigger than the other roles (for instance, the head honcho), wouldn't the power imbalance cause an issue in the group? 



Lord Pixel said:


> I even recognize this in crowds at a sports game, every crowd needs a guy that can whistle with his fingers lol, so when they cheer you always here some loud whistle in the back round lol, crowds just don't feel as exciting without that whistle lol.


Yes, this is true lol.



Lord Pixel said:


> That is pretty interesting how your Sx activates your Fi like that. And yea Fi first and Sx last feels much a game of tug-o-war with yourself. I feel that dormant seeking of close connections, but I also feel lost as to how to obtain it. I feel like if I did try to obtain it I would just be pressing people in an uncomfortable way. My So is always looking for recognition int he group, like to see if I mean something to the group of people I am around, would the group be the same if I was gone what do I contribute? What is my purpose in the group? But m y Fi wants to feel deeper and more intimate emotions with someone and you cannot get that from group recognition, everybody just gets a piece of you but no one gets the whole you, and it just sucks lol. One drive towards reputation and one drive towards closeness and they both fight each other. Two strong opposing drives.


It seems like the role you fulfill in a group brings you recognition and purpose because you view everyone as this one collective, that's interesting to view the world in that way. You derive meaning from the group but like you said in a group everyone gets a piece of you but not the whole you. The group gives you a sense of meaning but at the same time it's just a piece and not the whole, which in a sense almost seems contradictory to me. 



Lord Pixel said:


> I have noticed some Sx people appear like an outlier in groups yea, it seems like some of them are unsure how to fit in with the rest. And it can look standoff-ish to the uniformed. Idk, some Sx people i just want to show them it's ok to join in lol.


Yeah that's true, I probably look the same in groups. I just don't feel part of the group, and if the group gets larger in size I feel even more like an outlier. 



Lord Pixel said:


> And sometimes I have been an outlier but it once again fit into my idea that I am just fulfilling the role of outlier because alot of groups have that one person who doesn't fit in or follow the head honcho.


That's really interesting, even as an outlier you feel as if you're part of the group because you're fulfilling the role of an outlier, that's your role or place in the group and so you derive meaning from it (let me know if I'm off the mark). 

I wonder if this idea of fulfilling a role in a group is different for So/Sx.



Lord Pixel said:


> It says So types want to feel like they have a group to belong to And I relate to that aspect of So alot. Like I feel like I keep searching for a group of people that feel like home, a group of people that I mean alot to and it would not be the same if I was gone, a group of people that would miss my presence and embrace me warmly when I come back. It just feels amazing to have that family where you are recognized and a significant member of. Also i think as an Fi-dom sometimes I hinge my identity on who I am to the group. When I am the funny guy in the group I am often seen as a character, every time I come around people are expecting to laugh, I like the idea that I bring something to the group that identifies me as different. Also if I am not recognized in a group I care about, I often feel like a grain of sand in a desert, insignificant, purposeless, like I mean nothing to the world around me, and I will slowly drift away from that group to another group where I can add value.


Thanks for sharing, that's a take on recognition in a group that I've never considered before. 



Lord Pixel said:


> This probably also is amplified with lower Fi. I feel this way when someone I don't want getting to know me tries to pry info out of me. I have also experienced this when in a group, people want you to share with the group, I'm like wtf no I only would say those things one on one not in a huge group setting, because my So is aware that if share certain details with myself people might se me differently, treat me differently and perhaps judge me in ways I don't want to be judged. I've been in groups where the "head honcho" would ask the entire group "What has been the hardest thing you've dealt with in your life?" And yes I cringee-get away from me- face them.


Maybe sharing personal details in front of everyone in a group setting is more So/Sx than So/Sp.



Lord Pixel said:


> But in a relationship or someone I want to bond with, or even a close friend, I usually want to get to that level of depth and it's nice when it's recieved well but sometimes I'm not sure how much is too much so I wait for someone else to create the pace.


Yeah, when you share something personal you don't know if you're revealing too much or not, sometimes it backfires and the connection isn't the same anymore.



Lord Pixel said:


> I think she was Sx/so. That is interesting, so you feel like when you look at a group of 10 people at a rock band you see 10 individual people attending a rock band, that is interesting lol. I probably would see a group of rock music fans, and then see how I fit in that group, since I am not a rock music fan I would probably naturally be put in the role of rock music newbie, people in the group would feel the need to educate me on good rock music lol. But then I see a cute girl I would want to get to know more, and I am at a complete loss lol because I'm too busy entertaining the group with my lack of rock knowledge, and if I approached her I would approach her with my established role of rock music newbie.


Thanks for this, this makes a lot of sense lol.

If I attend a football game and there's 70,000 people, I see 70,000 individuals. Sometimes it can be overwhelming. I imagine you see one collective group (with various roles?).



Lord Pixel said:


> I think when the ENTP woman creates that bubble with me the phenomenon of it is probably amplified because as an INFP type 4 it's known that we like to be "unique and special." And with that complex combined with someone specifically picking you out of the crowd and treating you and only with with favor, it just sparks up all those feelings if "I'm unique and special and someone likes me for it." and the feeling is truly satisfying lol. So yea I am a sucker for Sx. It makes me feel special lol.
> 
> So do you just pick a person out of a group and focus on them and getting to know them? And how do you choose who to pick?


That's nice to hear, I feel like people are usually uncomfortable with Sx or they shy away from it, at least in my experience so I'm usually reserved and contained in the way that I present myself. 

It's interesting that even now you're saying "so do you pick a person out of a group and focus on them" because it shows how strong the Social instinct shapes your perception.

For me, I don't really think in terms of the group so I don't pick someone out of the group because I don't see a group, I just see someone there. My focus is on that specific person. I'm not sure how to describe it, I think someone just suddenly captures my attention and I focus my attention on that person. Sometimes I sense their Sx, or I can relate or empathize with the person, or I find them interesting, intriguing, or different. This person sticks out from the rest and I know from the start that there's potential to form a connection. However, sustaining the connection can also be an issue because as you know, sometimes people grow and change. It feels like there's always something going on subconsciously like I'm always searching for something my whole life, a connection or feeling with someone or something. 



Lord Pixel said:


> Yea, I think when that job ended I realized trying so much to be recognized as someone special in the group doesn't not guarantee meaningful relationships with people. I feel like I am trying to get Sx depth through So means and it's not working. If I see potential with someone it's still a challenge for me to try and befriend them in a group setting, one on one is a little easier, but in a group setting I'm so preoccupied with what my identity is in the group I don't stop and try and dive deeper with anyone person, I make efforts to befriend or impress the head honcho or boss to be recognized as an ally not enemy or a valuable equal (and that tactic is also me trying to establish who I am to the group, if you are good with the head honcho then the group respects you, but you also can't be a teachers pet so it's a fine line to walk.) or if there is no head honcho I slowly try to gain the groups respect to acknowledge me as head honcho, and then when I see that cute girl I want to single out and talk to one on one, I am at a complete loss because if I talk to her in the group and get rejected I look like the guy that got rejected by her, yea too preoccupied with socal dynamics, it works best if an Sx person comes and bubbles me in, it helps clear my mind of the social noise of the group.


I know a type 3 Sp/So and like you he struggles with his Sx, he doesn't know how to bond with people and this stresses him out because it's the one thing that he can't fix on his own so I agree, I think it helps if an Sx person comes and bubbles you in. It's interesting how some people are so preoccupied with fulfilling the first instinct and often neglect the last but some have the first instinct fulfilled to a certain extent but not the last, seems like it's best to work on all three or eventually you'll realize something is missing.


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

Lord Pixel said:


> Sx last for me always made me cringe at college parties when people played drinking games that revolved around sharing their most explicit sex stories, then the question would get turned to me and I would gulp in fear and say something like "Never have I ever been on a hot air balloon?" And I would kill the whole vibe by bringing up something innocent and non sex related.


I understand the link between the sexual instinct and sex itself, and I do like the fact that this instinct is called "the sexual instinct" because sx types tend to be "turned on" or "aroused" (in a non-physical way... or rather in terms of energy) by the one or the few they want to connect with... and they don't _choose_ who they're turned on by - it's more instinct than conscious choice. But the sexual instinct does not equal sex, and there are so many other factors that may contribute to you feeling uncomfortable in this kind of situation whereas others don't, for example some people view sex as something that exists only for procreation and physical pleasure, which makes sex less of a personal thing, and thus might make it easier to openly discuss as though it's not a big deal. At the same time, there are people who view sex as purely physical but still consider it an uncomfortable matter to talk about, possibly due to sexual repression / having some embarrassment or shame with regards to their own sexual feelings, and so they'd rather not talk about it. Then, you get people who _do_ attach value to sex but not to sharing sex stories and whatnot, and people who attach value to sex and would rather only talk about it with the people they choose to have sex with... and the list goes on. 

I read somewhere that the view that sex is a 100% physical desire is a good indication that someone is _not_ sx, and although I think that makes sense, I don't think that's necessarily true because I think that there are so many factors (e.g. upbringing, religious beliefs etc.) that go into a person's views regarding sex (or anything, really). The example you'd given is what I consider using sex as mechanism for social bonding, which I think is a way of engaging the _social_ instinct. I'm not questioning your type here, and in fact I do think that a lot of you've said makes sense with regard to how I understand the social instinct and how it manifests as a dominant instinct and you have helped me to understand it further; it's just weird to me that you've singled this out as the part of sx that makes you uncomfortable when sex is not only related to the sx instinct but to the others too (specifically sp, being a solely physical drive for many people) while you don't seem to find things more _directly_ related to the sexual instinct quite as cringeworthy, e.g. you have no problem with someone zeroing in on you and in building an intimate relationship with you. I am making an assumption here but when you were describing your relationship with the ENTP sx woman, you didn't imply experiencing any discomfort the way you do in the above example. 

How do you know that your discomfort with people openly sharing their sex stories is due to your being sx-blind rather than stemming from other issue you have pertaining to sex? Not just _you_, but other sx-blinds who agree. To be frank, I think the latter option is more likely correct, and that a lot of people still tend to equate sx with sex, especially on this forum because so many people here who identify as sx make posts about how the sx instinct manifests in them that basically just say, "Sex sex sex adrenaline sex." 

Also, I just rambled on about sex without getting personal about it and without going too far in depth - did anything I say make you uncomfortable? Because, honestly, to me this is a very, very impersonal, un-intimate conversation. I'm sorry if I have made you, or anybody uncomfortable, but I'm also curious to know if there is anyone who considers even an impersonal discussion like this one uncomfortable. 



> And being an Fi-dom who wants intimacy Sx-last seems to get in the way of getting intimacy. Like when I am in a group, my So can catch who the head honcho is, and also what's missing in the group and what unique thing I can bring to the table, I cna find my niche in a group so to speak, which is fun, but in a group it can't really get past the surface because not everyone can know you deeply, and I feel like trying to reach out to individuals when I'm in a group, 1. I feel bad because I'm not treating everyone fairly and people might think I'm partial to other's over others and 2. I feel like if I try to get intimate with someone it's like too much, or inappropriate like people don't care to know you that much. And sometimes it's hard to find the topics to dive deep with so I ask stupid surface questions hoping the person just bites on something and unloads themselves to me.
> 
> My Fi seeking intimacy and my Sx last not knowing how to get the intimacy causes me to try and get help from people who reach out on that intimate level.





> I also remember when my seasonal job ended, in our group of co-workers I had solidified myself as the funny outgoing guy (even though really introverted outside the group). I put on my social butterfly hat and chatted up various co-workers so each person would get a feel for who I was (in the group). And it worked, but after awhile it just seemed like I didn't want to make friends with any one person and I just wanted the majority of people to think I was cool, (I did and it mostly stemmed from the fear of looking socially awkward, I wanted to show that I wasn't). At the end of my seasonal job, I realized, I would never seen these people again, and I had made no strong bonds or meaning for relationships, and my seasonal job felt so empty and pointless, like I spent all this time with these people and none of them really know me and I don't know them, they were in my life and now they are gone, I felt like trying to connect with people on the very last day would appear inappropriate and sort of desperate. No meaningful goodbyes, not even empty promises of hanging out.
> 
> Idk. I fear alot "Am I ever gonna feel that with someone." And I have felt that with people, but like I mean are they gonna be around for good.


Okay, this is really interesting. Based on anecdotes, it seems to me that sx-lasts don't tend to be quite as antagonistic towards their blind spot than sp and social lasts are.

In my interpretation of the instincts, it seems that people don't really tend to pay attention to their blind spot due to seeing this area as being unimportant, but from what I've read from sx-lasts, at least in other threads, while most of their attention seems to go towards the other instincts, they don't see building an sx kind of relationship with somebody as a waste of time. Social lasts in particular will always say that they don't know how to network but that they don't really care about it because it's not important, and that makes sense to me because based on what I know, that is how the blind spot works. Sexual lasts usually say that they avoid intimacy because they don't know how to handle it, but I don't think that I've ever come across an sx-last who's ever said that they regretted an intimate relationship (although I have come across one person who said they really didn't like sx 9s because they have no respect for boundaries) or that intimacy is not important. I think it's quite interesting to note.

As a side note, I think of Fi as process. I don't think that it wants or needs or values or believes. It's more about how you got there. I do however see the connection between being a type 4 and appreciating the sx instinct in wanting to be significant in somebody's life in a way that doesn't happen often or easily. 



> But I secretly want to reach in depth with someone but fear that no one really cares enough and i would make others uncomfortable to get to that level. But then when someone does get to that level with me sometimes it's not the person I want to get in-depth with and they just sort of unload on me, and I'm like, I want this but not with you looooooool. Like I want it with someone who means something to me.


I... don't understand. What is the difference between someone you're "getting in-depth with" and someone who means something to you? I'm pretty sure those are the same thing. Like... when you start going deeper with someone or they start going deeper with you - or when you hit it off with somebody and being relatively open with them is easy - shouldn't that automatically make this person mean something to you? How can someone mean something to you before you start to go deeper with them?

This is so strange to me. I was literally so confused for, like, a full five minutes because I had absolutely no idea what you were trying to say, lol. 



> It says So types want to feel like they have a group to belong to And I relate to that aspect of So alot. Like I feel like I keep searching for a group of people that feel like home, a group of people that I mean alot to and it would not be the same if I was gone, a group of people that would miss my presence and embrace me warmly when I come back. It just feels amazing to have that family where you are recognized and a significant member of. Also i think as an Fi-dom sometimes I hinge my identity on who I am to the group. When I am the funny guy in the group I am often seen as a character, every time I come around people are expecting to laugh, I like the idea that I bring something to the group that identifies me as different. Also if I am not recognized in a group I care about, I often feel like a grain of sand in a desert, insignificant, purposeless, like I mean nothing to the world around me, and I will slowly drift away from that group to another group where I can add value.


This makes a lot of sense. I tend to define the social instinct similarly. In fact, one of the biggest reasons why I identify as so-last is because I do not define myself in relation to the group. I've met a lot of people who would describe themselves as outsiders or "alien" to the rest of the community, but the reason why I don't relate to that is because whether I'm fitting in to the group or not (and honestly I rarely even notice whether I'm fitting in or not), I don't attach my identity to the role I have in a group nor to feeling ostracized by a group, and I tend to be almost completely out of touch with this sort of thing.

I still don't understand why this is important, however. If I had to establish and maintain a social network and secure my role in a group, I would feel like I'm spending a lot of my energy on cultivating shallow, meaningless relationships and gaining nothing from that, so why exactly do you want to be significant to a group? I understand that feeling valuable may be linked to your being a type 4, but that aside, what are you gaining from adding value to a group? What does the group offer you in return?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Flower Hat said:


> Okay, this is really interesting. Based on anecdotes, it seems to me that sx-lasts don't tend to be quite as antagonistic towards their blind spot than sp and social lasts are.
> 
> In my interpretation of the instincts, it seems that people don't really tend to pay attention to their blind spot due to seeing this area as being unimportant, but from what I've read from sx-lasts, at least in other threads, while most of their attention seems to go towards the other instincts, they don't see building an sx kind of relationship with somebody as a waste of time. Social lasts in particular will always say that they don't know how to network but that they don't really care about it because it's not important, and that makes sense to me because based on what I know, that is how the blind spot works. Sexual lasts usually say that they avoid intimacy because they don't know how to handle it, but I don't think that I've ever come across an sx-last who's ever said that they regretted an intimate relationship (although I have come across one person who said they really didn't like sx 9s because they have no respect for boundaries) or that intimacy is not important. I think it's quite interesting to note.


I think it helps that Sx is kinda romanticized, while the other two instincts are often talked about in more simplistic or superficial ways. Ironic in a way.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Flower Hat said:


> I understand the link between the sexual instinct and sex itself, and I do like the fact that this instinct is called "the sexual instinct" because sx types tend to be "turned on" or "aroused" (in a non-physical way... or rather in terms of energy) by the one or the few they want to connect with... and they don't _choose_ who they're turned on by - it's more instinct than conscious choice. But the sexual instinct does not equal sex, and there are so many other factors that may contribute to you feeling uncomfortable in this kind of situation whereas others don't, for example some people view sex as something that exists only for procreation and physical pleasure, which makes sex less of a personal thing, and thus might make it easier to openly discuss as though it's not a big deal. At the same time, there are people who view sex as purely physical but still consider it an uncomfortable matter to talk about, possibly due to sexual repression / having some embarrassment or shame with regards to their own sexual feelings, and so they'd rather not talk about it. Then, you get people who _do_ attach value to sex but not to sharing sex stories and whatnot, and people who attach value to sex and would rather only talk about it with the people they choose to have sex with... and the list goes on.
> 
> I read somewhere that the view that sex is a 100% physical desire is a good indication that someone is _not_ sx, and although I think that makes sense, I don't think that's necessarily true because I think that there are so many factors (e.g. upbringing, religious beliefs etc.) that go into a person's views regarding sex (or anything, really). The example you'd given is what I consider using sex as mechanism for social bonding, which I think is a way of engaging the _social_ instinct. I'm not questioning your type here, and in fact I do think that a lot of you've said makes sense with regard to how I understand the social instinct and how it manifests as a dominant instinct and you have helped me to understand it further; it's just weird to me that you've singled this out as the part of sx that makes you uncomfortable when sex is not only related to the sx instinct but to the others too (specifically sp, being a solely physical drive for many people) while you don't seem to find things more _directly_ related to the sexual instinct quite as cringeworthy, e.g. you have no problem with someone zeroing in on you and in building an intimate relationship with you. I am making an assumption here but when you were describing your relationship with the ENTP sx woman, you didn't imply experiencing any discomfort the way you do in the above example.
> 
> How do you know that your discomfort with people openly sharing their sex stories is due to your being sx-blind rather than stemming from other issue you have pertaining to sex? Not just _you_, but other sx-blinds who agree. To be frank, I think the latter option is more likely correct, and that a lot of people still tend to equate sx with sex, especially on this forum because so many people here who identify as sx make posts about how the sx instinct manifests in them that basically just say, "Sex sex sex adrenaline sex."


There are descriptions about how Sx blinds find it uncomfortable to talk about sexual things in public, so I'm not making this up, and I greatly relate to that description. I've read descriptions that don't say Sx is all about sex sex sex but intense connection with peoplle, which can lead to sex but it's not just about the sex itself so I agree, I'm just saying my difficulty with talking about sexual things in public and flaunting that shit sometimes does seem linked to my So first and sx last. And my experience with the ENTP woman wasn't sexual at all so there was no need for discomfort, it's not like she was telling me vulgar sex stories.




Flower Hat said:


> Also, I just rambled on about sex without getting personal about it and without going too far in depth - did anything I say make you uncomfortable? Because, honestly, to me this is a very, very impersonal, un-intimate conversation. I'm sorry if I have made you, or anybody uncomfortable, but I'm also curious to know if there is anyone who considers even an impersonal discussion like this one uncomfortable.


No because you didn't talk about personal stories about you getting face fucked, or how you gave this guy a blow job one day and threw up on his dick. <<<That stuff makes me uncomfortable and then people think I'm judging them because I find their stories disgusting to listen to and they think (Wow you're such a prude) and I'm wtf?


Okay, this is really interesting. Based on anecdotes, it seems to me that sx-lasts don't tend to be quite as antagonistic towards their blind spot than sp and social lasts are.



Flower Hat said:


> In my interpretation of the instincts, it seems that people don't really tend to pay attention to their blind spot due to seeing this area as being unimportant, but from what I've read from sx-lasts, at least in other threads, while most of their attention seems to go towards the other instincts, they don't see building an sx kind of relationship with somebody as a waste of time. Social lasts in particular will always say that they don't know how to network but that they don't really care about it because it's not important, and that makes sense to me because based on what I know, that is how the blind spot works. Sexual lasts usually say that they avoid intimacy because they don't know how to handle it, but I don't think that I've ever come across an sx-last who's ever said that they regretted an intimate relationship (although I have come across one person who said they really didn't like sx 9s because they have no respect for boundaries) or that intimacy is not important. I think it's quite interesting to note.


Don't know how to handle intimacy also sounds like something someone would say who had low F also. I don't have problems with intimacy when I am ALLLLLL in. I just don't go all in very often and I've only ever been all in with one person, and boundaries weren't even a thing, and intimacy was what I expected. But it took awhile to get there, it wasn't like this instinctual click from the moment we met. I avoid intimacy with people I just met because I don't feel like the proper time has passed before getting that deep, but I still have the drive to want to be close I just don't know how to get that close with someone one my own, I guess I don't have the natural instinct.



Flower Hat said:


> As a side note, I think of Fi as process. I don't think that it wants or needs or values or believes. It's more about how you got there. I do however see the connection between being a type 4 and appreciating the sx instinct in wanting to be significant in somebody's life in a way that doesn't happen often or easily.


I don't think this is correct about Fi, since Fi is about values or any strong feeling about something which is what determines something's value. Yes it processes ethical systems, but it also values ethical systems.



Flower Hat said:


> I... don't understand. What is the difference between someone you're "getting in-depth with" and someone who means something to you? I'm pretty sure those are the same thing. Like... when you start going deeper with someone or they start going deeper with you - or when you hit it off with somebody and being relatively open with them is easy - shouldn't that automatically make this person mean something to you? How can someone mean something to you before you start to go deeper with them?
> 
> This is so strange to me. I was literally so confused for, like, a full five minutes because I had absolutely no idea what you were trying to say, lol.


I have had people come up to me and tell me all their problems under the sun and unload about on me, I had people ask me where I live before even getting to know me, I didn't want them to be so open with me, I sometimes would be busy and have to find a way out of the conversation. That person means nothing to me so why am I gonna sit there and hear all their shit? But I can see the confusion like how can someone mean something to you before you know them, I guess like someone I am interested in talking to, or someone I'm already close with, they can unload on me. Sometimes it's just someone I see from afar and would want to talk to due to physical attraction/shared interests/ or vibe. So I guess that person doesn't mean a great deal to me yet but I wouldn't mind getting closer to someone I am interested in, I just don't want random people giving up all their details to me.




Flower Hat said:


> I still don't understand why this is important, however. If I had to establish and maintain a social network and secure my role in a group, I would feel like I'm spending a lot of my energy on cultivating shallow, meaningless relationships and gaining nothing from that, so why exactly do you want to be significant to a group? I understand that feeling valuable may be linked to your being a type 4, but that aside, what are you gaining from adding value to a group? What does the group offer you in return?


I guess this is where the instinct comes in, I don't always try to establish or maintain a social "network", i don't care about networking either lol maybe so-lasts think So is all about networking? I just some how end up in groups of people, sometimes I'm not sure how they form, and I tend to fill a role even if I don't want to, people just see me a certain way and I am very aware of it, and sometimes I can use it to perpetuate what they see (Someone thinks I'm funny? I can get away with saying more jokes around them, then I just become "the funny guy") or sometimes I can change how they see me, it's mostly an awareness to who you are in relation to others instead of putting forth effort to maintain a social group. I do try to establish a role in social groups though sometimes, and sometimes I succeed and sometimes I fail, sometimes it because I want people to see what I have to offer and appreciate me for it, sometimes its fear of seeming socially awkward so I try and mask myself in charm.

Purpose for me is linked to what I contribute to others around me. What am I doing here If I mean nothing to no one, if life would be exactly the same if I wasn't here. I could walk around and care about myself yea but when I die I won't be here, either I will be forgotten or remembered for what I contributed. Even if it was just being somebodies friend who was funny, at my funeral what will people say? My existence would just be a waste if I contributed absolutely nothing worth remembering. Being recognized for what you contributed is the easiest way to know if people value you and what you have to offer, especially if it's recognizable by more than one person. And having a group recognize your for that helps me at least feel like my existence had some purpose, that I wasn't on earth for no damn reason because there was a group of people that I impacted some how and maybe that was my reason for being here. I usually think like would any part of the world be different because I was here and sometimes it's a struggle to find an answer, the group can sometimes feel like the world you are impacting and it brings a sense and feeling of belonging and purpose, a group sometimes feels like a family or home or place that you are loved because it is not the same without you, that feeling of your family or group of friends missing you is truly satisfying to me, "We missed you man" "Things aren't the same when your not here" all tha t"You provide something special and unique we can't get anywhere else" I am a sucker for all that crap when it's genuine. This is probably how type 4 manifests with SO first attached to it. If I died and never deeply connected with one person intimately that would suck, and also if I died and never was recognized by people for what I specifically offer to the world that would also suck. I think being type 4 with the whole "wanting to explore the deep intimate imperfection in people" and Fi highly valuing that connection and So first sort of pull you in different directions, two opposing drives, Intimacy - Recognition, can you have both, who knows? I think I have the desire for intimacy but not the instinct that just clicks two ppl together without their choice like how you speak of.


----------



## L P (May 30, 2017)

Asd456 said:


> I see, not sure why my first thought was to dethrone the head honcho (guess that's the ENTJ or Sexual 6 showing lol).
> 
> I understand the benefits of having a leader/head honcho in a group but I just don't like the idea of someone in charge with more authority and power over the rest of the group because it feels like an imbalance of power. I understand what you're saying though.


Haha that's exactly what I thought lol, ENTJ goes straight to dethroning lol.





Asd456 said:


> I've heard about this role thing in groups before. I imagine the reason it's important to have roles in a group is because it's used as an identifier for that person in the group to symbolize their place in the group, and it is important for everyone to be part of something bigger than themselves (the collective group) but what happens if the roles change or what if some of the roles are bigger than the other roles (for instance, the head honcho), wouldn't the power imbalance cause an issue in the group?


I don't think it's important to have roles in a group, I just think SO instinct is aware that they simply exist. People just fall into roles. If you are the quietest person, you become " the quiet person", loud, loud person, and so on and so forth. It's almost like people are simply just defined by the others around them, but So instinct is aware of these roles and can either play them up or destroy them, or use them for your benefit. At work I play up the funny guy simply so I can get some slack if I screw up lol people often think "It's just him." They are less hard on me because I am funny, to them at least.

If roles change, things like groups splitting up can happen like a group of friends take sides with the old head honcho while others take sides with the new one, or just a cooler guy comes into town and the old head honcho becomes the new one's subordinate. If a subordinate becomes a new head honcho they would have had to go through alot of crap to prove themselves as better than the other subordinates ontop of being better than the current head honcho.

The reason the power imbalance doesn't cause issues is because the subordinates of the head honcho have agreed to be subordinates so no one challenges the head honcho. When someone does come in the group challenging the head honcho what you usually find is people talking shit about that person behind their back and the had honcho exaggerating that person's bad qualities or spreading bad rumors or whatever. And if someone does challenge the head honcho they will have to fight off all this friends, and usually when someone is in a group and lets say the head guy is funny or whatever, if someone tries to be funnier than him his people often see it as a weak attempt to dethrone him and shut that down real quick. Now if there is a guy that is actually funnier than the head guy his people will see him as a worthy new head honcho and they will either look to their head honcho to see how he handles this newcomer. If he shows insecurity then it seems weak, if he doesn't seemed threatened he seems strong, and if she matches or surpasses the guy he regains tons of trust as why he was the head honcho in the first place. Some head honchos kill the threat by trying to befriend the threat into the group. I don't think I've never typed the words head honcho this much ever, it's got my head spinning lol.

Mind you when I am in a group, I do not think of these things in these terms looool, the terms are more like, the cool guy, his friends, the pretty girl, the funny guy lol.

The way for me to control that power or not be controlled by it is to recognize it and align with it as an equal or show that my value does not come from being under the head honcho. I don't usually feel a power imbalance when that's the case because I can leave the group and the head honcho has not hold over me since I was never his subordinate or I never derived benefits from being in his group, I was just their for my own entertainment. Usually I have noticed power imbalance when you are in need of the head honcho, I learned the hard way if you don't have a car and you ask this "head honcho" for rides he might think he owns you in some way. I had to learn to never put myself in positions where I relied on such people because they slowly lord their status over you as if you are nothing without them. Being aware of who that person is in a gorup has allowed me to always stay out of their reach of control, if they offer a ride or money or food or anything it comes with you sort of becoming an underling, once I recognize it I can avoid it and even counter his status. Sometimes being an outlier automatically makes you someone out of their control, and I have purposefully done that to this one girl who was a tyrannical head honcho, and she hated my guts lol, but I honestly could FEEL her NEED to conquer the will of everyone around her, a very trapping and restricting feeling.





Asd456 said:


> It seems like the role you fulfill in a group brings you recognition and purpose because you view everyone as this one collective, that's interesting to view the world in that way. You derive meaning from the group but like you said in a group everyone gets a piece of you but not the whole you. The group gives you a sense of meaning but at the same time it's just a piece and not the whole, which in a sense almost seems contradictory to me.


Ok, I don't think I view everyone as one collective though, I mostly view them as who they are relating to the group. I see individuals, but I see their role first. Like , oh he's the funny guy because everyone thinks he's funny.
I get a sense of how I think it's contradictory, but how do you see it as contradictory?




Asd456 said:


> Yeah that's true, I probably look the same in groups. I just don't feel part of the group, and if the group gets larger in size I feel even more like an outlier.


Is it like, too many individuals so much that you are not seen? I feel insignificant when the group gets larger because I feel unseen, but when I am seen in a large group I also get the most fulfilling feeling. But How does the group size affect you? Like are their too many people you can't find one person in it all?





Asd456 said:


> That's really interesting, even as an outlier you feel as if you're part of the group because you're fulfilling the role of an outlier, that's your role or place in the group and so you derive meaning from it (let me know if I'm off the mark).


You're right on the mark. I derive some sense of meaning when I take on the outlier role. Like this is who I am to these people, some consistent identity I can count on to see myself with, to not feel like my presence means nothing.

there was something the rapper 50cent said that sounds very So to me and made so much sense when I heard it. 50 cent used to diss Oprah, but on an interview he said he had to diss Oprah because he had to be her antagonist so the two can coexist, because their demographics are very different, 50 appeals to a street crowd and wannabe street crowd and Oprah appeals to middle aged white women lol.

50 gained presence and identity being an antagonist to Oprah, he defined himself as her opposition. So in Oprah's world he had a presence/identity, which was "The bad guy". Without that he wouldn't even be recognized in her world and completely disregarded as irrelevant.




Asd456 said:


> I wonder if this idea of fulfilling a role in a group is different for So/Sx.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe sharing personal details in front of everyone in a group setting is more So/Sx than So/Sp.


Funny enough I have an So/Sx friend, and it's interesting what he does. He tries to gain status in the group as the guy that has deep bonds with eveyrone LOL. That's how it seems to manifest in him, he usually brags about how he knows more about this high status person and how they talk on the phone all the time and have gotten closer lol. It's almost like those people who name drop celebrities and talk about how they hang out all the time and call them by their real name lol.




Asd456 said:


> Yeah, when you share something personal you don't know if you're revealing too much or not, sometimes it backfires and the connection isn't the same anymore.


I have also noticed this too, and I relate to being put off by it sometimes as well like the so descriptions suggest, it's mostly when someone says something to me when we first meet that doesn't seem appropriate to say until I have gotten to know them better. And this mostly judged off of how long it would take me to say something like that, so I guess the standard is subjectively unfair lol. Like if someone brings up they had an abortion in our first ever conversation and it's a very light conversation, I am taken back by it a litte.




Asd456 said:


> Thanks for this, this makes a lot of sense lol.
> 
> If I attend a football game and there's 70,000 people, I see 70,000 individuals. Sometimes it can be overwhelming. I imagine you see one collective group (with various roles?).


I'm glad that made sense lol that was the best way I could explain it.

Yea if I saw 70000 individuals I would imagine that would be overwhelming lol I can't really even imagine what that's like. And yes, I see the crowd, and if anyone person stands out they are sort of fulfilling a role in the crowd. Like the whistler, or the guy holding up a huge sign, or if some yells really loud after everyone cheers, he kind of take son an entertainer quality, like something different happened in this crowd because that guy was here and decided to yell when it was silent, and people usually laugh in that moment, if that guy does that again he gets recognized as the guy that does that.



Asd456 said:


> That's nice to hear, I feel like people are usually uncomfortable with Sx or they shy away from it, at least in my experience so I'm usually reserved and contained in the way that I present myself.


It depends for me, usually my struggle with Sx comes in the form of me being attracted to some girl either physically or her vibe, and then I become very unsure how to get to know her, so Sx would be much appreciated in those moments because it's exactly what I am seeking. And I have noticed 2 Sx girls that have actually reached out to me and it was the thing that continued the relatinship, this happened after I spoke to them of course, but they would reach out to me the next time I saw them and that let me know they wanted to continue tlaking, and that is like gold to me lol, because usually what happens is I talk to agirl, and the next time I see her I (for some reason beyond me) just do not talk to her, like some silent test to see if she wants to continue to talk, and most of the times it looks like the girl is either also waiting for me to start things back up again or our first meeting held no weight and it's like she doesn't know me all over again. So I guess I silently test girls to see if they sort of make that move that i attribute to Sx, so guess I subconsciously seek sx. But like a co-worker who seems like they would make a cool friend I am a little iffy about getting so close to them and I tend to shy away, only because I think that level of closeness is reserved for relationships. But then again this is all bs because I have gotten close to co-workers and friends and idk, somehow they broke through the cracks and I am not complaining lol, I appreciation their exclusive friendship style, usually my most fulfilling friendships are the exclusive bubble between us kind.



Asd456 said:


> It's interesting that even now you're saying "so do you pick a person out of a group and focus on them" because it shows how strong the Social instinct shapes your perception.
> 
> For me, I don't really think in terms of the group so I don't pick someone out of the group because I don't see a group, I just see someone there. My focus is on that specific person.* I'm not sure how to describe it, I think someone just suddenly captures my attention and I focus my attention on that person. Sometimes I sense their Sx, or I can relate or empathize with the person, or I find them interesting, intriguing, or different. This person sticks out from the rest* and I know from the start that there's potential to form a connection. However, sustaining the connection can also be an issue because as you know, sometimes people grow and change. It feels like there's always something going on subconsciously like I'm always searching for something my whole life, a connection or feeling with someone or something.


I think this is probably the source of my satisfaction with Sx, being a type 4 those are all the things I am sort of wired to be a sucker for, and this is usually the goal of my So pursuits, to be significant enough to stand out from the rest, sometimes I have control over how I stand out and other times I do not and stand out in ways I cannot change, but when I do not stand out I am slowly dieing lol. 

I think I have that same subconscious feeling, like I could go my whole life never connecting with someone and I fear that so I subconsciously seek that person. Do you think that's Sx seeking to fulfill lower Fi?




Asd456 said:


> I know a type 3 Sp/So and like you he struggles with his Sx, he doesn't know how to bond with people and this stresses him out because it's the one thing that he can't fix on his own so I agree, I think it helps if an Sx person comes and bubbles you in. It's interesting how some people are so preoccupied with fulfilling the first instinct and often neglect the last but some have the first instinct fulfilled to a certain extent but not the last, seems like it's best to work on all three or eventually you'll realize something is missing.


I feel like I have a vague sense of how to bond with people. Like when I think of me trying to use Sx I think of me just over-spilling my guts to someone and that picture in my head is horribly unattractive. I imagine Sx firsts do it with more control and moderation than just over-spilling, or they just don't think over spilling is wrong or anything.

The bubble feels warm, exclusive, important, like "this is a important conversation" even if it's not lol. Whispering in each other's ears in a crowd, being invited to go to a place to be alone, or even loudly singling me out in a crowd, I have been a sucker for all that in reality lol. Just warmth surges through me I'm sure I would have to date and Sx first to feel that sense of belonging again. Just, when I am in the bubble, I feel like I belong there honestly, because I was specifically chosen for it and that also touches on some So needs as well. It also feels like a secure friendship, not like someone hangs out with me because they just think I'm cool (I'm so and even I am not too found of people who hang onto other's status, I learned the hard way that those are not real friends.)

There was an Sx ENTJ lady on this form that made a post about how she would like more female friends, she hung out wit her husband and male friends the entire time. I imagine she was realizing she has neglected her So instinct and was seeking ways to improve it. She also stated she never fit in with the girls, I imagine this is amplified being a female ENTJ. But most of the time I think Sx firsts and So lasts don't care about having a group of friends. Do you just find the one person and you are good for life? Funny enough I sometimes think I want that same thing, until I realize I do want to make some impact on a group of people I belong to.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Lord Pixel said:


> There are descriptions about how Sx blinds find it uncomfortable to talk about sexual things in public...my difficulty with talking about sexual things in public and flaunting that shit sometimes does seem linked to my So first and sx last.


This is interesting to SX dominant/SO blind me bc I won't talk/hear about sex in any explicit way with anyone I'm not in a relationship with (as a general non-explicit topic it's fine). It's too meaningful, too personal, too deep to discuss openly. Just hearing the superficial, out-of-context way it's spoken of sickens me to my core and, to my mind, 'cheapens' it. And it's just weird to talk about it with people I'm not connected that way with. 

I'm not religious and the idea of me being a 'prude' is just funny (I'm very sex positive), so I just figured this is part of my SX sensitivity. I would hate for people to get the idea that speaking explicitly about sex in group settings = SX. I have no doubt that people of all kinds don't want to hear it though, simply bc sex spoken about explicitly & publicly can be inherently crass (as Lord Pixel showed with the examples he used).


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Dare said:


> This is interesting to SX dominant/SO blind me bc I won't talk/hear about sex in any explicit way with anyone I'm not in a relationship with (as a general non-explicit topic it's fine). It's too meaningful, too personal, too deep to discuss openly. Just hearing the superficial, out-of-context way it's spoken of sickens me to my core and, to my mind, 'cheapens' it. And it's just weird to talk about it with people I'm not connected that way with.
> 
> I'm not religious and the idea of me being a 'prude' is just funny (I'm very sex positive), so I just figured this is part of my SX sensitivity. I would hate for people to get the idea that speaking explicitly about sex in group settings = SX. I have no doubt that people of all kinds don't want to hear it though, simply bc sex spoken about explicitly & publicly can be inherently crass (as Lord Pixel showed with the examples he used).


Exactly lol so you got my point there.
And Yes I feel the exact same way about it, why would I want to talk about that with someone who I do not do that with? Some people like to share exploratory stories I guess, and they think those that don't judge them, and sometimes I do, and then they judge me, so t's one big judging circle. 

I definitely thought Sx was what made people comfortable talking about sex in public all willy nilly, but like I said I read a description of So saying they don't like to talk about it and I was like YUP! That's me, so I thought by contrast that's not Sx. Sometimes in relationships I do feel very vulnerable talking about it also though, I have nothing against sex either I just feel more comfortable doing it than talking about it. But some people have NO issue talking about it, especially when alcohol is involved, and if that's not an Sx thing than forgive me for thinking it was, but when the whole group is doing that and is ok with doing that I feel disgusted and that I'm considered nothing but a prude to them. And I'm like "Is it prude to not want to discuss this out loud like wtf?"


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## Asd456 (Jul 25, 2017)

Lord Pixel said:


> I don't think it's important to have roles in a group, I just think SO instinct is aware that they simply exist. People just fall into roles. If you are the quietest person, you become " the quiet person", loud, loud person, and so on and so forth. It's almost like people are simply just defined by the others around them, but So instinct is aware of these roles and can either play them up or destroy them, or use them for your benefit. At work I play up the funny guy simply so I can get some slack if I screw up lol people often think "It's just him." They are less hard on me because I am funny, to them at least.
> 
> If roles change, things like groups splitting up can happen like a group of friends take sides with the old head honcho while others take sides with the new one, or just a cooler guy comes into town and the old head honcho becomes the new one's subordinate. If a subordinate becomes a new head honcho they would have had to go through alot of crap to prove themselves as better than the other subordinates ontop of being better than the current head honcho.
> 
> ...


Maybe the social instinct isn't really about the collective group, the main focus is on the specific roles that make up the group. Seems like although there are higher roles in a group like the head honcho (we should start a tally lol) and lower roles in a group, you don't view it as a power imbalance because they're just fulfilling their roles and the roles are equal in scale in terms of rank so although the head honcho is the leader of the group with more authority, this individual is essentially just fulfilling their role.



Lord Pixel said:


> Ok, I don't think I view everyone as one collective though, I mostly view them as who they are relating to the group. I see individuals, but I see their role first. Like , oh he's the funny guy because everyone thinks he's funny.
> I get a sense of how I think it's contradictory, but how do you see it as contradictory?


So it's not a collective group that you see (as in one entity), it's individuals defined by their roles in relation to the group. That's interesting, it's like you're always comparing your role to others but at the same time you don't see status and rank because someone with a higher role in a group is just fulfilling their role and roles are equal (let me know if I'm off).

It's contradictory because the role that you take on brings you meaning but at the same time you also recognize that it's lacking in depth (everyone gets a piece but not the whole). Since I'm Sx-first, I interpret meaning as the whole. 

My sister is So/Sp and she's part of a volunteering program that helps high school students. It brings her meaning, she feels like she's "contributing" but at the same time when I ask her about it, the most she can tell me is the name of the person she's helping (the same person for almost two years) and the time and location of the place. It's strange to me because I know she feels fulfilled but at the same time it feels like there's no depth, no attachment, no emotion, but it brings her meaning. 



Lord Pixel said:


> Is it like, too many individuals so much that you are not seen? I feel insignificant when the group gets larger because I feel unseen, but when I am seen in a large group I also get the most fulfilling feeling. But How does the group size affect you? Like are their too many people you can't find one person in it all?


No actually, I don't care if people see me. I need to connect with them first and if they ignore me after that, yes. I need to feel something first to feel insignificant or unfulfilled. If the group gets larger in size, it feels like there's too much stimulation. My focus of attention is strong and selective and if the group gets larger, it feels like I can't focus and concentrate properly. I naturally want to pay attention to one person or a few individuals and anything more feels like there's too much going on (maybe for you, you naturally want to pay attention to all of the different roles in a group). 



Lord Pixel said:


> You're right on the mark. I derive some sense of meaning when I take on the outlier role. Like this is who I am to these people, some consistent identity I can count on to see myself with, to not feel like my presence means nothing.
> 
> there was something the rapper 50cent said that sounds very So to me and made so much sense when I heard it. 50 cent used to diss Oprah, but on an interview he said he had to diss Oprah because he had to be her antagonist so the two can coexist, because their demographics are very different, 50 appeals to a street crowd and wannabe street crowd and Oprah appeals to middle aged white women lol.
> 
> 50 gained presence and identity being an antagonist to Oprah, he defined himself as her opposition. So in Oprah's world he had a presence/identity, which was "The bad guy". Without that he wouldn't even be recognized in her world and completely disregarded as irrelevant.


It seems like So wants to take on a role to be seen and acknowledged because their identity is attached to the role, regardless if the role is good or bad (since he's the bad guy/antagonist).



Lord Pixel said:


> Funny enough I have an So/Sx friend, and it's interesting what he does. He tries to gain status in the group as the guy that has deep bonds with eveyrone LOL. That's how it seems to manifest in him, he usually brags about how he knows more about this high status person and how they talk on the phone all the time and have gotten closer lol. It's almost like those people who name drop celebrities and talk about how they hang out all the time and call them by their real name lol.


That makes sense lol.



Lord Pixel said:


> I have also noticed this too, and I relate to being put off by it sometimes as well like the so descriptions suggest, it's mostly when someone says something to me when we first meet that doesn't seem appropriate to say until I have gotten to know them better. And this mostly judged off of how long it would take me to say something like that, so I guess the standard is subjectively unfair lol. Like if someone brings up they had an abortion in our first ever conversation and it's a very light conversation, I am taken back by it a litte.


I'm usually reserved too. I've noticed Sx/So is more open than Sx/Sp and So/Sx is more open than So/Sp. 



Lord Pixel said:


> I'm glad that made sense lol that was the best way I could explain it.
> 
> Yea if I saw 70000 individuals I would imagine that would be overwhelming lol I can't really even imagine what that's like. And yes, I see the crowd, and if anyone person stands out they are sort of fulfilling a role in the crowd. Like the whistler, or the guy holding up a huge sign, or if some yells really loud after everyone cheers, he kind of take son an entertainer quality, like something different happened in this crowd because that guy was here and decided to yell when it was silent, and people usually laugh in that moment, if that guy does that again he gets recognized as the guy that does that.


Can multiple people share the same role (three guys in a crowd are 'loud' or two girls in a crowd are 'funny') or is it preferred and more common for one person to have one role?



Lord Pixel said:


> It depends for me, usually my struggle with Sx comes in the form of me being attracted to some girl either physically or her vibe, and then I become very unsure how to get to know her, so Sx would be much appreciated in those moments because it's exactly what I am seeking. And I have noticed 2 Sx girls that have actually reached out to me and it was the thing that continued the relatinship, this happened after I spoke to them of course, but they would reach out to me the next time I saw them and that let me know they wanted to continue tlaking, and that is like gold to me lol, because usually what happens is I talk to agirl, and the next time I see her I (for some reason beyond me) just do not talk to her, like some silent test to see if she wants to continue to talk, and most of the times it looks like the girl is either also waiting for me to start things back up again or our first meeting held no weight and it's like she doesn't know me all over again. So I guess I silently test girls to see if they sort of make that move that i attribute to Sx, so guess I subconsciously seek sx. But like a co-worker who seems like they would make a cool friend I am a little iffy about getting so close to them and I tend to shy away, only because I think that level of closeness is reserved for relationships. But then again this is all bs because I have gotten close to co-workers and friends and idk, somehow they broke through the cracks and I am not complaining lol, I appreciation their exclusive friendship style, usually my most fulfilling friendships are the exclusive bubble between us kind.
> 
> I think this is probably the source of my satisfaction with Sx, being a type 4 those are all the things I am sort of wired to be a sucker for, and this is usually the goal of my So pursuits, to be significant enough to stand out from the rest, sometimes I have control over how I stand out and other times I do not and stand out in ways I cannot change, but when I do not stand out I am slowly dieing lol.
> 
> I think I have that same subconscious feeling, like I could go my whole life never connecting with someone and I fear that so I subconsciously seek that person. Do you think that's Sx seeking to fulfill lower Fi?


I don't mind if I'm the first one to reach out but I won't continue if it's not reciprocated because it's like the connection wasn't real or meaningful in the first place (if it doesn't progress or if it's not the same as before). I'm like this with friends too. Sx wants to establish a connection with someone and also sustain it and if it's not, I don't find it meaningful.

I think Sx brings out my Fi more but at the same time as an ENTJ I don't really understand my Fi. I want to connect with someone, but intimacy and establishing a close connection with someone is a two-way thing. I don't like to reveal my feelings, and I don't know how I feel about things. It makes me uncomfortable to be vulnerable or open up. I feel like I always have to justify my feelings with an explanation, there needs to be a reason for it or else I don't understand it. Sx makes me want to feel things deeply with someone but at the same time it feels like there's a disconnect because my Fi is weak and I don't really understand it.



Lord Pixel said:


> I feel like I have a vague sense of how to bond with people. Like when I think of me trying to use Sx I think of me just over-spilling my guts to someone and that picture in my head is horribly unattractive. I imagine Sx firsts do it with more control and moderation than just over-spilling, or they just don't think over spilling is wrong or anything.


I'm Sx/Sp and I don't like it when someone reveals too much or comes on too strong. I think self-preservation makes you want to hold back more.



Lord Pixel said:


> The bubble feels warm, exclusive, important, like "this is a important conversation" even if it's not lol. Whispering in each other's ears in a crowd, being invited to go to a place to be alone, or even loudly singling me out in a crowd, I have been a sucker for all that in reality lol. Just warmth surges through me I'm sure I would have to date and Sx first to feel that sense of belonging again. Just, when I am in the bubble, I feel like I belong there honestly, because I was specifically chosen for it and that also touches on some So needs as well. It also feels like a secure friendship, not like someone hangs out with me because they just think I'm cool (I'm so and even I am not too found of people who hang onto other's status, I learned the hard way that those are not real friends.)
> 
> There was an Sx ENTJ lady on this form that made a post about how she would like more female friends, she hung out wit her husband and male friends the entire time. I imagine she was realizing she has neglected her So instinct and was seeking ways to improve it. She also stated she never fit in with the girls, I imagine this is amplified being a female ENTJ. But most of the time I think Sx firsts and So lasts don't care about having a group of friends. Do you just find the one person and you are good for life? Funny enough I sometimes think I want that same thing, *until I realize I do want to make some impact on a group of people I belong to.*


Do you want just one group of people or multiple groups as well?

It's finding the person and maintaining the connection or bubble with the person as well, which is the hard part. It's easy to connect with someone initially or notice someone because you find them interesting or attractive, but it's easy to lose the connection and the bubble isn't the same anymore. I feel unfulfilled when this happens. 

I do have female friends but yeah, I've always had an issue with gender roles (I'm sure it's the same for you as an INFP male). As an ENTJ female, I'm more blunt, assertive, and I look cold or unemotional (but it's just bad Fe). 

I think you can form close connections with friends or other people. I care about having a group of friends if it's meaningful but if it's just a social friend to go out with, I don't care because it feels superficial.


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## Asd456 (Jul 25, 2017)

Flower Hat said:


> I understand the link between the sexual instinct and sex itself, and I do like the fact that this instinct is called "the sexual instinct" because sx types tend to be "turned on" or "aroused" (in a non-physical way... or rather in terms of energy) by the one or the few they want to connect with... and they don't _choose_ who they're turned on by - it's more instinct than conscious choice. But the sexual instinct does not equal sex,


I agree, the sexual instinct does not equal sex (but can lead to sex). It doesn't help that a lot of the descriptions describe it as sex or "peacocking" and "mating" so people consume the information and take it as canon since the source is from an author, despite the fact that the enneagram authors can't even define the instincts clearly without different views in the first place. Also, they can't agree on one name for it as some prefer the sexual instinct, one-on-one instinct, relational instinct or the intimate instinct, which again I think speaks to the confusion and miscommunication concerning the sexual instinct (and I'd say for all of the instincts).


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Ok so, I just found out I'm actually So/Sx. That probably clears my answers up alot now. Sorry for the mix up i was very mixed up my self, which is what brought me to this section of PerC lol.

This is my descprtion almost perfectly.



> Social/Sexual 4
> 
> This is overall the “lightest” type Four when it comes to social interaction. They are likely to utilize charm and humor. This type is more scattered and can be down right disorganized. They can drift through life always feeling like an outsider, yet they usually have friends. They can alternate from being the life of the party to withdrawing. Intimates will know of their insecurities and dark moody side while acquaintances will see a softer, friendlier side. This subtype’s energy is geared towards people, but they never feel as though they really fit in. They are often quite creative, talented people who have many interests, but they frequently lack the energy to actually accomplish what they would like. They can drift and withdraw very easily. When healthy and with the right support from friends (and perhaps a little push) they tap into their instinctual energy. When they do this, they begin to see how much they can accomplish. A positive connection to others helps them stay focused.


My friend who is an So/Sx who does the celebrity name dropping is an 3w2 ESTJ so maybe his So/Sx manifests a little differently lol.








Asd456 said:


> Maybe the social instinct isn't really about the collective group, the main focus is on the specific roles that make up the group. Seems like although there are higher roles in a group like the head honcho (we should start a tally lol) and lower roles in a group, you don't view it as a power imbalance because they're just fulfilling their roles and the roles are equal in scale in terms of rank so although the head honcho is the leader of the group with more authority, this individual is essentially just fulfilling their role.


Well I do think it's a power imbalance yes, but a power imbalance the group has clearly agreed to because they cannot uphold the mantle of head honcho themselves, the burden of that is off them and on the leader so thus he fulfills a role for them also.




Asd456 said:


> So it's not a collective group that you see (as in one entity), it's individuals defined by their roles in relation to the group. That's interesting, it's like you're always comparing your role to others but at the same time you don't see status and rank because someone with a higher role in a group is just fulfilling their role and roles are equal (let me know if I'm off).


Oh no I see status and rank, and I try to maneuver myself into a favorable position, I never want to be the lowest rank, but I don't always want to be the highest because that comes with unwanted attention and some unwanted responsibilities, I usually shoot for a rank that is respected but comfortable. There is lots of jealousy I see from people relating to ones rank too if they feel they are better or the person is undeserved or if the person just makes them feel like less. At my job when I was new, my boss wouldn't except some work I did one time that was more than what he asked for(and was usable for what we were doing) simply just because. And the reason i thought it was because maybe it would make him look bad, but he had no good reason to reject what I did and even another co-worker noticed that. It was almost like he was saying "Your rank is down here, you stay down here, you don't do things above my rank." He couldn't word it like that but essentially that's what happened. He didn't want to be showed up by the new guy I guess.




Asd456 said:


> It's contradictory because the role that you take on brings you meaning but at the same time you also recognize that it's lacking in depth (everyone gets a piece but not the whole). Since I'm Sx-first, I interpret meaning as the whole.


My sister is So/Sp and she's part of a volunteering program that helps high school students. It brings her meaning, she feels like she's "contributing" but at the same time when I ask her about it, the most she can tell me is the name of the person she's helping (the same person for almost two years) and the time and location of the place. It's strange to me because I know she feels fulfilled but at the same time it feels like there's no depth, no attachment, no emotion, but it brings her meaning. [/QUOTE]

Ok makes sense, I am deriving meaning from something that lacks what you need to get a sense of meaning. 

Idk, just, when I am in a crowd and I have made an impression on people enough that I am recognized as an established role "funny guy, cool guy, outgoing guy." I just feel alive. Like I am meant to be here, I am a circle peg in a circle hole, the hole was meant for me and no one else. I get meaning out of that. BUT. When the group dispersses I realize it meant nothing and I created no close bonds with anyone, that's when I realize people only got the pieces, the softer friendlier side, and not the whole. This makes i hard for my close friends who have to hear me lament about my sorrows with this lol. They get the whole, but it's not always pretty.

And yea, I don't get the whole ide aof getting meaning from something that lacks depth, depth means meaning to me too, but unique recognition usually takes precedence and has perhaps greater meaning for me.




Asd456 said:


> No actually, I don't care if people see me. I need to connect with them first and if they ignore me after that, yes. I need to feel something first to feel insignificant or unfulfilled. If the group gets larger in size, it feels like there's too much stimulation. My focus of attention is strong and selective and if the group gets larger, it feels like I can't focus and concentrate properly. I naturally want to pay attention to one person or a few individuals and anything more feels like there's too much going on (maybe for you, you naturally want to pay attention to all of the different roles in a group).


AH, you need to connect with them first and then you care. Wow. That makes sense. It's so hard for me to imagine not caring being seen, they say your first instinct is sort of a subconsious obsession, and I recognize when I am in a group I do subconscious things to be seen, ask the question no one asked, stand or walk away form the crowd, attempt to do the bold thing or be the one to initiate a topic of conversation.

How you explained that makes sense now. It's as if you are a focused lazor, and let's say you want to burn a leaf, or a few leaves, but then you see this gigantic tree, and the trees leaves are immeasurable from your point of view, and to find the leaf to focus on becomes much more difficult. I can see how that could be overwhelming. Or maybe you see many leaves that catch you attention, not sure maybe that's what you mean by too much stimulation, too many people you might potentially want to focus on. 

Yeaaaa I naturally want to see the dynamic of how people's roles play together. Wat people do and how the roles manifest, who's who in this crowd and who can I be. Once I figure out who's who, I realize what's missing and if it lines up with who I am I can lend those qualities of myself to the group, I am essientially seeking to be loved for what I offer, because what offer is a apart of me, but once again people are only loving pieces and I fear alot that the good pieces I show them are what they would love while the ugly pieces I hide in fear that they wudn't be loved, so my close friends sometimes get dumped with the ugly pieces, as I am searching for love in those areas too. I have been in situations where there were too many people and I couldn't fulfill a role, and I don't really like it lol.



Asd456 said:


> It seems like So wants to take on a role to be seen and acknowledged because their identity is attached to the role, regardless if the role is good or bad (since he's the bad guy/antagonist).


Yes, to be seen, to exist really. Like, having an identity let's you know you exists, you affect change in the outside world some how, you are involved in life and recognized as something, anything, just let me know I am here! Good or bad I exist.[/QUOTE]






Asd456 said:


> Can multiple people share the same role (three guys in a crowd are 'loud' or two girls in a crowd are 'funny') or is it preferred and more common for one person to have one role?


yea but what happens is either competition or amalgamation. Either 3 funny guys turn into, Most funny guy, 2nd most funny guy, and 3rd funny guy just makes the other two look better. Or they just become the funny guys, and you noticed this when people say 'Hey where's your friend?" because they are seen as a unit and not as an individual, the funny guys are just not the same if it's just one funny guy. There is a dance group called the Les Twins, two twins that do some awesome pop n lock dance moves, nobody wants to see a Les Twin dance , but they want to see the Les Twins dance.




Asd456 said:


> I don't mind if I'm the first one to reach out but I won't continue if it's not reciprocated because it's like the connection wasn't real or meaningful in the first place (if it doesn't progress or if it's not the same as before). I'm like this with friends too. Sx wants to establish a connection with someone and also sustain it and if it's not, I don't find it meaningful.
> 
> I think Sx brings out my Fi more but at the same time as an ENTJ I don't really understand my Fi. I want to connect with someone, but intimacy and establishing a close connection with someone is a two-way thing. I don't like to reveal my feelings, and I don't know how I feel about things. It makes me uncomfortable to be vulnerable or open up. I feel like I always have to justify my feelings with an explanation, there needs to be a reason for it or else I don't understand it. Sx makes me want to feel things deeply with someone but at the same time it feels like there's a disconnect because my Fi is weak and I don't really understand it.


Sx sounds like a fire you have to keep fanned. I feel the same way except when I sy reach out it's not intimate details or anything it's probably just light humor testing the waters and trying to make an impression that I am fun/cool/approachable to the person, if I see them again and they do not reciprocate, nope I just saved myself some pain because I'm not gonna hunt down someone's attention, UNLESS we have been very close and they shut me out all of the sudden, I hunt them down because they are important to me at that point. I think I kind of relate to if it is not sustained it's not meaningful, yea because if it was real it wouldn't just disappear like that.

Your Sx brings up something you can't really make sense of, that sounds tough to deal with. Like something inside you drives you to want to plunge into something that simultaneously makes you feel uncomfortable. Sorry to be gross but I imagine it's like when you have to throw up lol, your body needs to reject something unhealthy inside you but the process of your body doing this good and healthy act makes you feel seriously uncomfortable, but you have to do it! 




Asd456 said:


> Do you want just one group of people or multiple groups as well?


I would be fine with one group I am super close with for life. I find myself in multiple groups because of changing environments lke at work and out of work are different groups, but one nice family unit that i always go back to is the ideal. And the only time I really go to another group is if I feel insignificant in my current one and more needed or valuable in another one.



Asd456 said:


> It's finding the person and maintaining the connection or bubble with the person as well, which is the hard part. It's easy to connect with someone initially or notice someone because you find them interesting or attractive, but it's easy to lose the connection and the bubble isn't the same anymore. I feel unfulfilled when this happens.
> 
> I do have female friends but yeah, I've always had an issue with gender roles (I'm sure it's the same for you as an INFP male). As an ENTJ female, I'm more blunt, assertive, and I look cold or unemotional (but it's just bad Fe).


Yea that sounds like it sucks, when the fire dies it feels like things are bitter and cold and you need to go somewhere else to find warmth again. I guess it's a little different from me, maintaining the connection I guess isn't my major issue but maintaining my established sort of impression on someone. Like if show them my funny sides then they expect me to be funny all the time, and when I am depressed or down it can make them think I'm not myself (I am but this is myself when I am alone, and now they are just seeing it). Like in that So/Sx description it said they can be the life of the party than all of the sudden withdraw, yea and when that withdraw happens (simply because I'm human and can't be funny all the time) people think something is unusual about me, so I try to maintain my role so to speak, but connection seems to last even if it's not 100% everyday all day, and sometimes the lows feel sort of empty yea like "Wow we REALLY liked being around each other at the start, and now it feels like we are forcing it." At those moments I try to fan the flame with old reminders why we liked each other but it's never really the same, most of the times what works for me is just having new experiences with that person, that seems to remind us quickly why we liked each other so much. Yea I think F men and T women sort of share similar struggles with that. Around the guys I try to keep things light and non-competitive because once they start having macho contests I lose interest quick since I'm not a forceful person nor do I get high off confrontation lol. When they start taking digs at each other's ego I just throw out jokes and it usually gets me out of someone's challenge. Like water, you can't hit water. I remember I went to a movie with a couple co-workers and I think one of the girls was an EXTJ girl, we all watched this sad movie and everybody agreed it was sad and started hugging each other at the end of the movie lol the EXTJ girl said she didn't like the ending nor cared for it even thought the rest of us felt sad about it, it seemed like everybody unanimously labeled her as heartless, she tried to justify why she thought it was dumb but they just thought she was heartless, I imagine she felt misunderstood and dropped the topic quickly, I saw how the expectation of her to be sad was set simply because she was a girl.



Asd456 said:


> I think you can form close connections with friends or other people. I care about having a group of friends if it's meaningful but if it's just a social friend to go out with, I don't care because it feels superficial.


That's interesting, because I can go just hang out with people in a group that I don't care about and it holds no meaning to me besides my own entertainment of me being outside and doing something, but if it's a group of people close to me it's alot more meaningful, especially since with those people I can recall the memories with them later in life.


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## 460202 (May 22, 2017)

Asd456 said:


> I agree, the sexual instinct does not equal sex (but can lead to sex). *It doesn't help that a lot of the descriptions describe it as sex or "peacocking" and "mating" *so people consume the information and take it as canon since the source is from an author, despite the fact that the enneagram authors can't even define the instincts clearly without different views in the first place. Also, they can't agree on one name for it as some prefer the sexual instinct, one-on-one instinct, relational instinct or the intimate instinct, which again I think speaks to the confusion and miscommunication concerning the sexual instinct (and I'd say for all of the instincts).


That's true. I think that an issue I have with descriptions of the sexual instinct is that a lot of them go out of their way to remind you that sx does not equal sex or sex appeal, but the authors go on to contradict themselves by describing sx-blind subtypes as being uncomfortable with PDA or sex and whatnot, which creates an association between such acts and the sexual instinct. I think it's really easy for people to mistype based superficial reasons because of this (especially with regards to where sx falls in the stacking); a lot of people identify as sx because they enjoy sex (the "You know you're an sx-dom" is filled with posts about sex) and a lot of people identify as sx-blind when they have low sex drives / are sexually repressed / are uncomfortable with sex. 

And yes, there's a lot of confusion regarding all of the instincts, and I think it's mainly because Enneagram authors aren't really consistent with how they define how the instincts behave in certain positions. It seems pretty widely accepted that so-doms may either be sociable or antisocial, or philanthropic or misanthropic, but the same logic doesn't seem to apply to the other instincts. 

Another issue I have is that a lot of people seem to associate deftness with the position of the instinct, when in reality - at least as per my understanding - the instinct we tend to be the most secure about is the second one in our stacking.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Flower Hat said:


> That's true. I think that an issue I have with descriptions of the sexual instinct is that a lot of them go out of their way to remind you that sx does not equal sex or sex appeal, but the authors go on to contradict themselves by describing sx-blind subtypes as being uncomfortable with PDA or sex and whatnot, which creates an association between such acts and the sexual instinct. I think it's really easy for people to mistype based superficial reasons because of this (especially with regards to where sx falls in the stacking); a lot of people identify as sx because they enjoy sex (the "You know you're an sx-dom" is filled with posts about sex) and *a lot of people identify as sx-blind when they have low sex drives / are sexually repressed / are uncomfortable with sex.*


This exactly the reason I typed myself as sx-last, but I've been questioning lately, and think I could even be the exact opposite for the same reason. I have so much sexually repressed energy, and thought that meant I had to be sx-last, which could still very well be the case, because I had the idea that sx-doms would never do this, and seems to be confirmed by other sx-doms on forum with how they describe themselves. The way they talk about themselves in certain places often annoys me, not because of the sexual basis, but in the way that it's often portrayed as the  instinct to be, always seeking intensity and juice!  (Is that even what sx is about?), but that could easily be my sx-last bias. I mean, to me, sx-instinct, more than the others, often seems glamorized on forums, but where is the pain and struggle if such an instinct, as the dominant one, is supposed to be "neurotic"? Out of curiosity, do you think sex then is irrelevant to the sexual instinct, and if you have an opinion, how would you see sx-lasts relationship to sex? As we were talking earlier, think upbringing, especially in regards to attitudes towards sex and one's culture or religion, that it can affect how this is expressed more than other instincts in a way. 



> And yes, there's a lot of confusion regarding all of the instincts, and I think it's mainly because Enneagram authors aren't really consistent with how they define how the instincts behave in certain positions. It seems pretty widely accepted that so-doms may either be sociable or antisocial, or philanthropic or misanthropic, but the same logic doesn't seem to apply to the other instincts.


Yeah, there really is a lot of inconsistency, and no one knows what is what. I have seen some descriptions characterize sp-doms as also falling into the opposite too, such as overeating/undereating, being self-destructive, etc., which is counter to being self-preserving, and don't see why that wouldn't be the case also based on my experience of other sp-doms too (and for the other instincts too), but then is that a distorted version of sp, or sp-last? It can be hard to tell.



> Another issue I have is that a lot of people seem to associate deftness with the position of the instinct, when in reality - at least as per my understanding - the instinct we tend to be the most secure about is the second one in our stacking.


I do think a person can be "stronger" with their first instinct than someone who has it as their blindspot, but it can also be the most damaged too, especially when unhealthy. In other words, I think when you're unhealthy, the expression of your instinct will most likely follow suit. I see this in my sp-4 friend, because when he is healthy, he is often a lot better at sp than I am, because he focuses on it a lot more, so he naturally becomes better at it than someone who doesn't focus on it. It's more innate to his focus, more instinctual. 

I have heard this too about the second instinct, being one's most confident instinct, because it is less neurotic than dominant instinct, and may be true too, but I'm still not sure. It seems a bit unsubstantiated.


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## Asd456 (Jul 25, 2017)

Flower Hat said:


> That's true. I think that an issue I have with descriptions of the sexual instinct is that a lot of them go out of their way to remind you that sx does not equal sex or sex appeal, but the authors go on to contradict themselves by describing sx-blind subtypes as being uncomfortable with PDA or sex and whatnot, which creates an association between such acts and the sexual instinct. I think it's really easy for people to mistype based superficial reasons because of this (especially with regards to where sx falls in the stacking); a lot of people identify as sx because they enjoy sex (the "You know you're an sx-dom" is filled with posts about sex) and a lot of people identify as sx-blind when they have low sex drives / are sexually repressed / are uncomfortable with sex.
> 
> It seems pretty widely accepted that so-doms may either be sociable or antisocial, or philanthropic or misanthropic, but the same logic doesn't seem to apply to the other instincts.


Yeah I don't think the first instinct automatically means you're good at it, but it's still your strongest fixation. Those posts are everywhere unfortunately.



Flower Hat said:


> And yes, there's a lot of confusion regarding all of the instincts, and I think it's mainly because Enneagram authors aren't really consistent with how they define how the instincts behave in certain positions.
> 
> Another issue I have is that a lot of people seem to associate deftness with the position of the instinct, when in reality - at least as per my understanding - the instinct we tend to be the most secure about is the second one in our stacking.


Mario Sikora apparently calls the social instinct the navigating instinct, the self-preservation instinct the preserving instinct, and the sexual instinct the transmitting instinct. He calls it the instinctual biases, here's a link about it and the positions: http://www.awarenesstoaction.com/en...uploads/2013/04/Instinctual-biases.final_.pdf

And Oscar Ichazo calls the "instinctive drives" the conservation instinct, relation instinct, and the adaptation instinct. 

Here's more information if you're interested Instincts and Subtypes – Looking Through a Modern Lens – Mario Sikora | Nine Points Magazine

Ultimately I think the enneagram authors won't come to a consensus to actually define the instincts clearly, they just want to promote their own ideas and services.



Lord Pixel said:


> Ok so, I just found out I'm actually So/Sx. That probably clears my answers up alot now. Sorry for the mix up i was very mixed up my self, which is what brought me to this section of PerC lol.
> 
> My friend who is an So/Sx who does the celebrity name dropping is an 3w2 ESTJ so maybe his So/Sx manifests a little differently lol.


Lol now that you know you're So/Sx, do you still think Sx/Sp is the ideal person for you? They say 6 is the most diverse type, but I also find type 3 to be quite diverse (and actually other types too, like 7, 2, 9). 



Lord Pixel said:


> Idk, just, when I am in a crowd and I have made an impression on people enough that I am recognized as an established role "funny guy, cool guy, outgoing guy." I just feel alive. Like I am meant to be here, I am a circle peg in a circle hole, the hole was meant for me and no one else. I get meaning out of that. BUT. When the group dispersses I realize it meant nothing and I created no close bonds with anyone, that's when I realize people only got the pieces, the softer friendlier side, and not the whole. This makes i hard for my close friends who have to hear me lament about my sorrows with this lol. They get the whole, but it's not always pretty.
> 
> And yea, I don't get the whole ide aof getting meaning from something that lacks depth, depth means meaning to me too, but unique recognition usually takes precedence and has perhaps greater meaning for me.
> 
> Yes, to be seen, to exist really. Like, having an identity let's you know you exists, you affect change in the outside world some how, you are involved in life and recognized as something, anything, just let me know I am here! Good or bad I exist.


Ok, I think recognition gives you meaning, to be seen means you have an identity. That makes sense.



Lord Pixel said:


> How you explained that makes sense now. It's as if you are a focused lazor, and let's say you want to burn a leaf, or a few leaves, but then you see this gigantic tree, and the trees leaves are immeasurable from your point of view, and to find the leaf to focus on becomes much more difficult. I can see how that could be overwhelming. Or maybe you see many leaves that catch you attention, not sure maybe that's what you mean by too much stimulation, too many people you might potentially want to focus on.


That's it, I usually want to pay attention to one thing, one leaf (or a few leaves) and it's a very intense focus. Anything more like in a large group or crowd feels like too much stimulation because I can't focus properly on that one person or one thing. It feels like a distraction, I find it hard to focus on a lot of people all at once. Maybe it's easy for you to focus on a lot of people at the same time.



Lord Pixel said:


> I remember I went to a movie with a couple co-workers and I think one of the girls was an EXTJ girl, we all watched this sad movie and everybody agreed it was sad and started hugging each other at the end of the movie lol the EXTJ girl said she didn't like the ending nor cared for it even thought the rest of us felt sad about it, it seemed like everybody unanimously labeled her as heartless, she tried to justify why she thought it was dumb but they just thought she was heartless, I imagine she felt misunderstood and dropped the topic quickly, I saw how the expectation of her to be sad was set simply because she was a girl.


Just curious, what was the movie? It feels like there's a degree of expectation for me to be bubbly and emotionally expressive. Someone told me before that communication is largely based on tone and body language and sometimes I think people misunderstand my tone and body language.



Lord Pixel said:


> Yeaaaa I naturally want to see the dynamic of how people's roles play together. Wat people do and how the roles manifest, who's who in this crowd and who can I be. Once I figure out who's who, I realize what's missing and if it lines up with who I am I can lend those qualities of myself to the group, I am essientially seeking to be loved for what I offer, because what offer is a apart of me, but once again people are only loving pieces and I fear alot that the good pieces I show them are what they would love while the ugly pieces I hide in fear that they wudn't be loved, so my close friends sometimes get dumped with the ugly pieces, as I am searching for love in those areas too. I have been in situations where there were too many people and I couldn't fulfill a role, and I don't really like it lol.


I don't see roles, so I don't need someone to fulfill a role to accept them completely. If you're close with someone, I think it's just a given to accept them fully, even the ugly pieces. I don't think you need to hide certain pieces and show good pieces to fulfill a role, probably because I don't see roles, but yeah I think I understand what you're saying.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Asd456 said:


> Lol now that you know you're So/Sx, do you still think Sx/Sp is the ideal person for you? They say 6 is the most diverse type, but I also find type 3 to be quite diverse (and actually other types too, like 7, 2, 9).


I actually think this explains why I like Sx/Sp. Since now that I realize I value Sx and do not devalue it like the So/Sp descprtions say. Also I am pretty draw to people who have So last. So came sometimes feel like a trap, an awareness how how you are seen or fit into the group that cannot be turned off, people who do not care about those things seem to have a liberation from it that seems refreshing and something I often wonder is like to experience myself. 

Also With other So firsts, sometimes interactions can easily go no where. I remember a girl I was attracted to at work, she was higher up than me, but I could tell she found me attractive and wanted to talk to me( idk, I could just tell) but she wounldn't allow herself to because it would challenge her status, and I wouldn't allow myself to talk to her to affirm her status, it would of been me like saying "ok since your this big shot I have to come to YOU, instead of you coming to me." If that weird fixation on status and how someone of her status can't associate with me wasn't there then I wouldn't have cared who initiated contact, it's just, we ended up playing this silent game of "which one of you is gonna crack and given into the other person." sort of deal, and idk, it's stupid honestly. It's like a "I'm cooler than you" sort of thing. I feel like Sx/sp isn't concerned with any of that crap, and it is refreshing to be around someone who isn't.




Asd456 said:


> Ok, I think recognition gives you meaning, to be seen means you have an identity. That makes sense.






Asd456 said:


> That's it, I usually want to pay attention to one thing, one leaf (or a few leaves) and it's a very intense focus. Anything more like in a large group or crowd feels like too much stimulation because I can't focus properly on that one person or one thing. It feels like a distraction, I find it hard to focus on a lot of people all at once. Maybe it's easy for you to focus on a lot of people at the same time.


So like, what do you do? Do you just find someone of interest and ask them deeper questions? I'm trying to picture how you approach connecting with people.


I am more fond of people who focus on one person than the whole group, maybe that's an enneagram thing though, E4 liking exclusivity and all that. But yea easier kind of reveals your perspective eon it, easier sounds "requires less effort" for me, perhaps because in your case it requires effort, I can't really turn off being aware of the whole group and my place in it. It requires some focus to single someone out though, and I love when someone singles me out and reminds me of what is important, which is closer bonds and not just being cool to alot of people. But Sp does require the most effort for me, saving money, talking about healthy foods and al that, ugh lol, I try but man it requires effort.



Asd456 said:


> Just curious, what was the movie? It feels like there's a degree of expectation for me to be bubbly and emotionally expressive. Someone told me before that communication is largely based on tone and body language and sometimes I think people misunderstand my tone and body language.


The movie was Me Before You. Yea like at that movie if it was guy that said he thought the ending was dumb I'm sure people have a mental image of "Non-sensitive tough guy" so it's "valid" for him to say it's dumb, but for a girl either she "heartless", the label is much more dramatic and comes with disassociation. I also recognize my ENTJ boss' body language being misunderstood at work. When something is being requesed by higher ups, he goes around asking other's if it's done, and he goes up to someone and says "Did you do this? What about this? And this? We talked about that yesterday you said it would be done." And without yelling, he still comes off as this forceful interogator, but in reality he is just trying to get the answers he's looking for so he can solve the problem, other's don't see that though, they just see the intense questioning and are unsure if how the answer will get them in trouble or not lol.




Asd456 said:


> I don't see roles, so *I don't need someone to fulfill a role to accept them completely. If you're close with someone, I think it's just a given to accept them fully, even the ugly pieces. I don't think you need to hide certain pieces and show good pieces to fulfill a role, *probably because I don't see roles, but yeah I think I understand what you're saying.


Yea, this sounds like why I probably like Sx/sp. I feel like that's something I search for in groups and cannot find, some close relationship with someone where it's ok to just be the things that I really am and not always try to be something that other people find valuable. It usually takes someone to snap me out of seeking myself in the group and remind me that these other aspects of myself are ok and make me human.


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## Asd456 (Jul 25, 2017)

Lord Pixel said:


> I actually think this explains why I like Sx/Sp. Since now that I realize I value Sx and do not devalue it like the So/Sp descprtions say. Also I am pretty draw to people who have So last. So came sometimes feel like a trap, an awareness how how you are seen or fit into the group that cannot be turned off, people who do not care about those things seem to have a liberation from it that seems refreshing and something I often wonder is like to experience myself.
> 
> Also With other So firsts, sometimes interactions can easily go no where. I remember a girl I was attracted to at work, she was higher up than me, but I could tell she found me attractive and wanted to talk to me( idk, I could just tell) but she wounldn't allow herself to because it would challenge her status, and I wouldn't allow myself to talk to her to affirm her status, it would of been me like saying "ok since your this big shot I have to come to YOU, instead of you coming to me." If that weird fixation on status and how someone of her status can't associate with me wasn't there then I wouldn't have cared who initiated contact, it's just, we ended up playing this silent game of "which one of you is gonna crack and given into the other person." sort of deal, and idk, it's stupid honestly. It's like a "I'm cooler than you" sort of thing. I feel like Sx/sp isn't concerned with any of that crap, and it is refreshing to be around someone who isn't.


So-first in that position is a practical instinct to have and since I'm So-last, it's taxing to do basic So things. Maybe she didn't want to start a work relationship, but yeah if it's because of status, I don't understand that and talking is harmless. 



Lord Pixel said:


> So like, what do you do? Do you just find someone of interest and ask them deeper questions? I'm trying to picture how you approach connecting with people.
> 
> I am more fond of people who focus on one person than the whole group, maybe that's an enneagram thing though, E4 liking exclusivity and all that. But yea easier kind of reveals your perspective eon it, easier sounds "requires less effort" for me, perhaps because in your case it requires effort, I can't really turn off being aware of the whole group and my place in it. It requires some focus to single someone out though, and I love when someone singles me out and reminds me of what is important, which is closer bonds and not just being cool to alot of people. But Sp does require the most effort for me, saving money, talking about healthy foods and al that, ugh lol, I try but man it requires effort.


I'll try to describe Sx/Sp. I can't turn off Sx too. It feels like I'm always trying to find something outside of myself. I'm not looking for someone specifically, because I don't even know what I'm looking for, but there's something going on subconsciously that's driving me to seek something outside of myself. I don't know what it is, a lot of times it feels like I'm just chasing after a feeling. That feeling or connection is the thing that's driving me to approach someone. When I have a strong connection with someone, it brings me closer to that feeling. Or for instance, if it's a song I like, I can listen to the same song for days or if I'm doing something like exercising, I can over exercise if it brings me closer to that feeling. 



Lord Pixel said:


> The movie was Me Before You. Yea like at that movie if it was guy that said he thought the ending was dumb I'm sure people have a mental image of "Non-sensitive tough guy" so it's "valid" for him to say it's dumb, but for a girl either she "heartless", the label is much more dramatic and comes with disassociation. I also recognize my ENTJ boss' body language being misunderstood at work. When something is being requesed by higher ups, he goes around asking other's if it's done, and he goes up to someone and says "Did you do this? What about this? And this? We talked about that yesterday you said it would be done." And without yelling, he still comes off as this forceful interogator, but in reality he is just trying to get the answers he's looking for so he can solve the problem, other's don't see that though, they just see the intense questioning and are unsure if how the answer will get them in trouble or not lol.


I just watched the trailer, not sure how I feel about it lol. Maybe she didn't like the directing style or plot of the film. 

I actually do this too, I think the "forceful interrogator" is more 6, CP or Sexual 6. I actually think I read that somewhere, 6s can look like we're interrogating you because we're always questioning things. I also read somewhere that we're labeled as the "persecuted persecutor" but I can't remember from where. We can be unintentionally accusatory. I wonder if the ENTJ is a 6. IME, the most common types for ENTJs are 3s and Sexual 6s (and actually Naranjo said the most common CP and Sexual 6s are ENTJs). 3s are more pleasant than 6s, they want people to like them. I have a soft spot for 3s. They're nothing like the descriptions (ok, I'm digressing now lol). 

We don't have the best body language and tone, it's sort of stiff or robotic-like and blunt. When I try to be more emotionally expressive, it doesn't work. 



Lord Pixel said:


> Yea, this sounds like why I probably like Sx/sp. I feel like that's something I search for in groups and cannot find, some close relationship with someone where it's ok to just be the things that I really am and not always try to be something that other people find valuable. It usually takes someone to snap me out of seeking myself in the group and remind me that these other aspects of myself are ok and make me human.


Ok, that's interesting. You're So-first so finding yourself in a group is important but you also want close connections and you know that a group can't give you that. It seems like a polarization. I can see that for Sx/Sp too. I want to feel something with someone, but I also want to pull away. Doesn't make much sense.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Asd456 said:


> So-first in that position is a practical instinct to have and since I'm So-last, it's taxing to do basic So things. Maybe she didn't want to start a work relationship, but yeah if it's because of status, I don't understand that and talking is harmless.





Asd456 said:


> I'll try to describe Sx/Sp. I can't turn off Sx too. It feels like I'm always trying to find something outside of myself. I'm not looking for someone specifically, because I don't even know what I'm looking for, but there's something going on subconsciously that's driving me to seek something outside of myself. I don't know what it is, a lot of times it feels like I'm just chasing after a feeling. That feeling or connection is the thing that's driving me to approach someone. When I have a strong connection with someone, it brings me closer to that feeling. Or for instance, if it's a song I like, I can listen to the same song for days or if I'm doing something like exercising, I can over exercise if it brings me closer to that feeling.


Ok, so yea I'm So/Sx then. I feel like that too, like I'm trying to chase that feeling with a song, or activity or whatever, but some feeling it feel alive again or feel like life means something again, I guess I attribute meaning to intensity. But for you it's constant and can't be turned off. That sounds sort of tough to deal with.



Asd456 said:


> I just watched the trailer, not sure how I feel about it lol. Maybe she didn't like the directing style or plot of the film.
> 
> I actually do this too, I think the "forceful interrogator" is more 6, CP or Sexual 6. I actually think I read that somewhere, 6s can look like we're interrogating you because we're always questioning things. I also read somewhere that we're labeled as the "persecuted persecutor" but I can't remember from where. We can be unintentionally accusatory. I wonder if the ENTJ is a 6. IME, the most common types for ENTJs are 3s and Sexual 6s (and actually Naranjo said the most common CP and Sexual 6s are ENTJs). 3s are more pleasant than 6s, they want people to like them. I have a soft spot for 3s. They're nothing like the descriptions (ok, I'm digressing now lol).
> 
> We don't have the best body language and tone, it's sort of stiff or robotic-like and blunt. When I try to be more emotionally expressive, it doesn't work.


Yea she didn't care for the ending she thought it was dumb lol. My boss might be CP 6, he does sound unintentionally accusatory. It sounds like you have an interesting perspective on type 3s, the description makes them sound shallow without knowing it. 

Yea, any kind of forced emotion usually reads as strange, to me at least, and I usually think it's uncomfortable for the other person.
I remember when an ENTJ woman I know sort of over expressed emotion one time, and it definitely took me back a bit, but it also made me feel sort of bad to be taken back by it because I saw her trying to be nice, but idk yea it didn't work lol, her normal mellow self is usually fine. I remember my interactions with her and it always seemed like she would try to be more F with me and I would try to be more T with her, and we sort of missed the mark because we secretly wanted the person to be what they were and realized we weren't acting normal with each other lol.



Asd456 said:


> Ok, that's interesting. You're So-first so finding yourself in a group is important but you also want close connections and you know that a group can't give you that. It seems like a polarization. I can see that for Sx/Sp too. I want to feel something with someone, but I also want to pull away. Doesn't make much sense.


Hm, that does sound interesting, like the second instinct is sort of going against the first. Like your being pulled two different ways. So have you been in situations where you connect with someone, then pull away, and they are left confused?


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Lord Pixel said:


> So have you been in situations where you connect with someone, then pull away, and they are left confused?


Idk. The confused one have never gotten back to me and told me the story. "No" then?


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