# To debate or not to debate?



## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

How do you deal with the need to argue when you know there is no point in arguing at all? 

When the individual you're about to go into a debate with is a close minded sad little human, who (you know from past experience) cannot even stand the thought of opinions contrary to his, yet he does everything he can to bait you into arguing? Logically you know that there's simply no point, not because there's no chance of changing their minds - that's not the point - but because there's no chance of having a meaningful, interesting conversation without appeals to emotion and authority. Which is incredibly frustrating and draining. 

You know this and yet, there's a compulsive voice in your mind that tells you that you have to (figuratively speaking ).

Personally sometimes I give in, sometimes I don't. Depends on my mood I suppose. But it feels kind of..unnatural when I don't, even under the conditions I mentioned above. Resorting to sarcasm sure helps though.

Does this happen to you people? (of course it does) How do you react?


----------



## SnowPharaoh (Mar 7, 2015)

I found that when I do give in, and debate away, at the end of it I inevitably feel anoyed and like I lost my time, that being said in most casses I will debate and try over and over new aproaches, anything to open the persons mind and then again and in the end fail again.... but and this is a big but, I find great satisfaction in telling the story to other friends with whom I can analyze why the person in question won't open up, is so stubborn etc


----------



## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

SnowPharaoh said:


> I found that when I do give in, and debate away, at the end of it I inevitably feel anoyed and like I lost my time, that being said in most casses I will debate and try over and over new aproaches, anything to open the persons mind and then again and in the end fail again.... but and this is a big but, I find great satisfaction in telling the story to other friends with whom I can analyze why the person in question won't open up, is so stubborn etc


Good point, I do that too. I think the reason I keep arguing with people, even though they're close minded ect. is so that I can analyze them further.


----------



## SnowPharaoh (Mar 7, 2015)

psychedelicmango said:


> Good point, I do that too. I think the reason I keep arguing with people, even though they're close minded ect. is so that I can analyze them further.


Exactly, I got a Infp friend and don't get me wrong he's a great friend, but the stuff that comes out of him mouth sometimes leaves me dumbstruck, lost for words which is a rare state for me, and whats the most fascinating thing about it is that he doesn't realize what he's saying doesn't have any logic to it, totaly oblivious that most of it is vastly subjective, I'm thinking it's his Fi going out of control but who knows, my point is .... well I don't really have one, hope you get my meaning : )


----------



## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

SnowPharaoh said:


> Exactly, I got a Infp friend and don't get me wrong he's a great friend, but the stuff that comes out of him mouth sometimes leaves me dumbstruck, lost for words which is a rare state for me, and whats the most fascinating thing about it is that he doesn't realize what he's saying doesn't have any logic to it, totaly oblivious that most of it is vastly subjective, I'm thinking it's his Fi going out of control but who knows, my point is .... well I don't really have one, hope you get my meaning : )


Ha, I have INFP friends too. Logic and pragmaticism is not their forte, but they get me instictivelly when I start talking crazy, and I get them. And debating them is fun, even though my arguments are usually logical (or at least my logic) while they defend theirs with what instictually feels right, their Fi, we can exchange opposing opinions like thinking adults. We're just using two different kinds of logic. 

I think close minded-ness is the result of lack of education and varied experiences rather than type, though it might be related to functions, I don't know really.

But my point is why even bother? What's so fascinating about that kind of people that needs analyzing?


----------



## herkapernikis (Apr 27, 2014)

You've only got so many chances to get good at arguing over mundane stuff; heaven forbid you aren't prepared when you need to argue for something important.


----------



## SnowPharaoh (Mar 7, 2015)

psychedelicmango said:


> Ha, I have INFP friends too. Logic and pragmaticism is not their forte, but they get me instictivelly when I start talking crazy, and I get them. And debating them is fun, even though my arguments are usually logical (or at least my logic) while they defend theirs with what instictually feels right, their Fi, we can exchange opposing opinions like thinking adults. We're just using two different kinds of logic.
> 
> I think close minded-ness is the result of lack of education and varied experiences rather than type, though it might be related to functions, I don't know really.
> 
> But my point is why even bother? What's so fascinating about that kind of people that needs analyzing?


Why do people bother with the things they do, it's one of the great questions human kind is trying to answer through art, science, psylosophy etc. 
For me, and I'm not answering any of the big questions with this, when in situations when I don't see a point in discussing and generaly in the sharing of ideas and the other side is stubborn and unwilling to new ideas I try to remind my self that at the moment when I pick only the easy battles I'm the one who really loses, it might be a idealistic view and frustrating at times every once in a while you menage to crack even the tickest of skulls and open them to something new, and it us very rewarding
but I might be wrong who knows : )


----------



## Flaming Bassoon (Feb 15, 2013)

Let's have a debate about it.


----------



## Lakin (Feb 4, 2015)

Try being a liberal that attends a conservative university _and_ works in customer service in a small, bible belt town. I bite my tongue until it bleeds. Daily.


----------



## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

I mostly ignore people who are not ready to engage in rational, civil discourse. It is not possible to have a quality discussion when someone behaves like that. I personally don't have the urge to pursue those conversations because nothing good ever happens. I value my time and mental health more than I value the potential to beat a troll in an argument.


----------



## melebula (Oct 25, 2014)

The debate within my own head goes something like:

"Wrong! Wrong! I must tell them they're wrong!"
"It's no use"
"But I really need to tell them they're wrong because they're wrong and it's my DUTY to tell them they're wrong!"
"No, I shouldn't do it, it will open up a can of worms because they would rather reason with their feels"
"If I explain logically why they're wrong, that should be enough to persuade them!"
"No, they love their feels, it's a waste of time, I shouldn't do it, I won't do it, and it ultimately isn't worth it"
"But I can't just let them sit there and be stupid"

I either won't bother, or very tactfully and politely disagree, to which they usually respond with "BUT BLUBLUBLU-" and I just nod in agreement because I don't feel like arguing.

Sometimes if the person is actually close-minded, and you can't change their opinion, it's better to state your opinion for onlookers, who might be more open to it.


----------



## SnowPharaoh (Mar 7, 2015)

It seems like a lot of you have far higher levels of self control than I do :tongue: , sure in most instances I just keep my mouth shut and happily nod my head away but in some casses, the "urge" just overpowers me and I let loose the dogs of war :laughing: , of course this has no real impact on the discussion since I'm dealing with a closed minded person but what can you do :tongue:


----------



## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Depends how tired and bored I am.
If i'm tired I can simply be reactive, not really thinking too much about the direction as much as the topic, though get really tired I can't be fucked.
If i'm bored i'm more likely to keep it going to a ridiculous long time and have done so a few times, just poking and prodding people and their points.


----------



## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

I rarely debate on anything, since I find it a waste of time. Only if a decision affects me negatively will I strike out against it.


----------



## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

herkapernikis said:


> You've only got so many chances to get good at arguing over mundane stuff; heaven forbid you aren't prepared when you need to argue for something important.


That's the point of my post, whether or not it's worth arguing important issues with people who are not open to discussion. If you can't even have a conversation without resorting to insults and arguments such as "I think this is that, because that's how it's always been, you're just young and stupid and can't see my oh-so-wise point." You have to pick your battles sometimes, but for me it's hard to do so.



SnowPharaoh said:


> Why do people bother with the things they do, it's one of the great questions human kind is trying to answer through art, science, psylosophy etc.
> For me, and I'm not answering any of the big questions with this, when in situations when I don't see a point in discussing and generaly in the sharing of ideas and the other side is stubborn and unwilling to new ideas I try to remind my self that at the moment when I pick only the easy battles I'm the one who really loses, it might be a idealistic view and frustrating at times every once in a while you menage to crack even the tickest of skulls and open them to something new, and it us very rewarding
> but I might be wrong who knows : )


It does feel very rewarding when you have a good debate and both people learn something from each other.



Lakin said:


> Try being a liberal that attends a conservative university _and_ works in customer service in a small, bible belt town. I bite my tongue until it bleeds. Daily.


I had a similar situation in mind when I posted, so I feel for you. Although thankfully I don't have to deal with that crap on a daily basis. I'd probably go psycho killer if I did.



melebula said:


> The debate within my own head goes something like:
> 
> "Wrong! Wrong! I must tell them they're wrong!"
> "It's no use"
> ...


Lol. That's what's going on in my head pretty much. I just don't know what to do, because if I bother, the result is me being angry at their level of stupidity. If I don't bother, I still get angry at their level of stupidity, and because I can't express myself. I realise that most people face those kind of people and situations on a regular basis, but I still don't know how to handle it, the people or the anger. I guess I have a short fuse.


----------



## sockratees (Apr 7, 2015)

if it isn't going to change anything i'll usually pass. i usually give in when i get annoyed.


----------



## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

I usually resort to simple derision. I figure that maybe if they feel as inadequate as I think they are in that particular arena, they might try to become more educated. I guess I'm just trying to help them, in my own way, because I pity them. 

It doesn't work just as often as it does, though. So whether or not it's any better than pointless isn't really apparent to me.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

My step-father is ISTJ. With him I've learned policy of "don't ask, don't tell" as in "don't ask anything, don't tell anything". I am now capable of squishing my urge to argue, just smiling and nodding while mentally judging the hell out of them. Engaging such person will lead to frustration and just break my chill mood policy. Additionally, I avoid piping up if I know that the other person will take it personally or respond emotionally. I hate being recipient of yelling and brooding and definitely prefer to just not engage with people that are prone to that.


----------



## ArBell (Feb 10, 2014)

If I know there is no point at all in arguing, I don't argue.
Except if the people are stupid little SFs and love to annoy me and try to 'get even' (keeping track of points for every won arguments).
I won't give them the satisfaction.
But at some point i'll just throw cold water in their face to make them shut up.


----------



## dracula (Apr 5, 2015)

I don't argue if I don't like the topic and I definitely know that the other person will never take my viewpoints into consideration or even worse, will refuse to acknowledge what I said. 

Although there is one exception to this - if I hear two people I know well enough debate with each other, it's practically impossible for me not to contribute somehow. For example, I once heard an ISTJ and INFP argue over something that was both insignificant and ultimately rather obvious and both sort of sucked so I thought I'd make things interesting and oh well, it lasted for pretty long.


----------



## cerenach (Mar 26, 2015)

I think the impersonality of the internet is a boon because it makes emotional appeals less effective and also allows you time to craft and research facts before posting. 

In person debates though? Hell no. Especially class debates. Just shoot me and put me out of my misery.


----------



## Korra (Feb 28, 2015)

I have ventured into charged internet debates. Sometimes it was because I was truly bored that day. Sometimes I do it because I am able to visually see my points of view challenged and then gain new insight, those are the most fulfilling debates. Most of the time, I actually don't want to be right and even welcome being 'wrong' so that I learn something new and probably even change an opinion I had to a new one. 

But damn, internet debates sucks the energy right out of me. I haven't had one in ages. Nowadays, I may just quickly post a post to challenge an opinion that I couldn't quite understand. Once I see what the other person elaborates on why he or she feels a certain way, I'm content enough to leave it be.

Edit: Whoa, I thought this was the debate section. Didn't mean to intrude on all you NT's...


----------



## Pifanjr (Aug 19, 2014)

I like arguing with close minded people sometimes. It's a challenge. I always wonder if this will be the time I can get them to admit they're wrong :laughing:. Sometimes they might give in to some small detail, which is probably the best victory I can get.

I also just find it interesting to see how close-minded people think. They can really believe in things without proper evidence or arguments and I have no idea how they do it. It's fun to try to unravel how they came to a conclusion and what happens when you poke at some of the fundations of their arguments.


----------



## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

psychedelicmango said:


> How do you deal with the need to argue when you know there is no point in arguing at all?
> 
> When the individual you're about to go into a debate with is a close minded sad little human, who (you know from past experience) cannot even stand the thought of opinions contrary to his, yet he does everything he can to bait you into arguing? Logically you know that there's simply no point, not because there's no chance of changing their minds - that's not the point - but because there's no chance of having a meaningful, interesting conversation without appeals to emotion and authority. Which is incredibly frustrating and draining.
> 
> ...


Best way is to not debate the person you are annoyed by. Don't reply to his/her posts, but simply create a new post where you make your statements without showing directly who you are replying to.


----------



## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

@Peter that's good advice but I was refering more to real life situations.


----------



## Alpha_Orionis (Jan 18, 2015)

I say what i have to say. If the person ignores the facts that i told them, then i leave and let them live in ignorance.


----------



## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

psychedelicmango said:


> @_Peter_ that's good advice but I was refering more to real life situations.


The real world? What was that again? :laughing:

In real life situations where you are in a group, address the group, not the person. (Notice how politicians tend to do that a lot. There's a reason for that.)

If you´re in a person to person debate with somebody like that,.. you really should ask why you put yourself in that situation.


----------



## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

Peter said:


> The real world? What was that again? :laughing:
> 
> In real life situations where you are in a group, address the group, not the person. (Notice how politicians tend to do that a lot. There's a reason for that.)
> 
> If you´re in a person to person debate with somebody like that,.. you really should ask why you put yourself in that situation.


Hmm yes addressing the group sure is very diplomatic, I do that very often. 

But what if your in group situations where only one of the group is the problem? And I don't always put yourself in such situations, sometimes it happens I'm being provoked by certain behaviour, sometimes unexpectedly, regardless of the topic of controversy (ex, one person expressing an opinion, I express my objections, they become rude.)


----------



## starscream430 (Jan 14, 2014)

Lakin said:


> Try being a liberal that attends a conservative university _and_ works in customer service in a small, bible belt town. I bite my tongue until it bleeds. Daily.


Besides the Bible Belt part, I can relate to your situation...though it seems like my classmates are overall quite nice about their religion (it's the faculty that are the stingy ones).

In my opinion, OP, don't debate with such a fool. It's a waste of time for you and will only make you feel like crap afterwards for fighting a pointless fight. I would usually just ignore such a person or mention that I have business somewhere else...


----------



## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

psychedelicmango said:


> Hmm yes addressing the group sure is very diplomatic, I do that very often.
> 
> But what if your in group situations where only one of the group is the problem? And I don't always put yourself in such situations, sometimes it happens I'm being provoked by certain behaviour, sometimes unexpectedly, regardless of the topic of controversy (ex, one person expressing an opinion, I express my objections, they become rude.)


Not everyone is a politician :happy:

That's where the famous "Let's agree to disagree" statement comes from. It helps to end the thing and not let it escalate further.


----------



## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

psychedelicmango said:


> How do you deal with the need to argue when you know there is no point in arguing at all?
> 
> When the individual you're about to go into a debate with is a close minded sad little human, who (you know from past experience) cannot even stand the thought of opinions contrary to his, yet he does everything he can to bait you into arguing? Logically you know that there's simply no point, not because there's no chance of changing their minds - that's not the point - but because there's no chance of having a meaningful, interesting conversation without appeals to emotion and authority. Which is incredibly frustrating and draining.
> 
> ...


I had an extremely religious work associate who presented this case in my past. It got to the point that I would try to deflect the argument with pale sentences and one word responses. Often he would just continue baiting. It was impossible to make any point with him since it was always God's Will that his point of view is right.


----------



## Doktorin Zylinder (May 10, 2015)

I don't see the point in arguing with a lot of people when they have no intention of being open to a differing opinion. They only want to win or think they win. Those are a waste of time.


----------



## Lelu (Jun 1, 2015)

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> I don't see the point in arguing with a lot of people when they have no intention of being open to a differing opinion. They only want to win or think they win. Those are a waste of time.


Well said. Sometimes I get a bit too invested and get drawn into debate when it should be avoided.

To answer the OP, I am much more prone to picking my battles these days, however, sometimes I don't cut it off when I should. 

The ones who only want to hear themselves being right are a waste of breath. Theirs and mine.


----------



## EntropicBeing (Nov 8, 2015)

No, let us save our energy for the better peoples. I do it to some people when I am aware that I have to do it.


----------

