# Extrovert with shyness or SAD issues?



## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

Hey everyone
So I've been more than a little confused lately..as to whether im an introvert or extrovert with avoidant issues.
The thing is, I LIKE being constantly on the go and the sense of purpose it gives. I always feel like I have to be doing something..whether it's taking in a performance, hosting a party/event, going on thrill rides, learning stuff, getting work done(yes, I procrastinate sometimes, but that's when I'm tired). I think I'm more expressive than your average introvert..I used to post constant FB status updates when I had FB and do that all the time on twitter(well whenever I have something to say). I can be extremely wild, crazy, and in your face with friends, but with strangers or parents, or even just coworkers, it's tough. They know I'm flamboyant, but not loud. Just a quiet sort of flamboyant..
I LIVE for thrill-seeking and can totally feed off adrenaline. I enjoy big cities and the "rush" atmosphere..as long as I get some "peace-time" at the end of the day, but once I do, I'm ready to go at it again. I read that introverts get energy from being alone, extroverts with people. But I'm really not sure..what I meant by "peace-time" is just relaxing by myself or with one other person..as long as it's quiet. I need the "peace-time" otherwise I'm tired. I love amusement park rides, being spontaneous and impulsive, and doing things on the spur of the moment. If it helps, I'm enneatype 5w4. I'm pretty assertive and have no problem expressing my opinions, and I can *sometimes* go up to talk to strangers( this RARELY happens, most of the time I'm too shy.) I hate parties and the loudness that comes with them..I'd rather have something like a party but without the loud noisy music and people vomiting everywhere(how the heck is that fun?!) I'm a private person and find it difficult to trust people..it's always been that way. But I'm all for being energized. I like to tease..I hate attention though. ABSOLUTELY hate it. It makes me nervous and scared, and I find myself afraid of people sometimes. 
As much as I hate to party dorm-room style, I'm all for your more sophisticated type of parties..such as cocktail or tea parties. I enjoy hosting those.
I often wish I was this social lady with lots of confidence and candor.
So..if any more info is required, I'll post up more. I hope this is good enough.


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## Angel1412kaitou (Mar 30, 2010)

You sound a bit introverted to me...Cognitive functions test?
A lot of I's enjoy social gatherings, they're just drained by it.
Sorry about the lack of insight. :sad:


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

Angel1412kaitou said:


> You sound a bit introverted to me...Cognitive functions test?
> A lot of I's enjoy social gatherings, they're just drained by it.
> Sorry about the lack of insight. :sad:


cognitive functions test keeps giving me INTJ. but they ask questions like "are you often loud and expressive" or "do you make friends easily"..well I can, but only up to a point. If I could though, I would.
er..I'm not sure whether I enjoy social gatherings..it depends on the people..


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Introverts can enjoy social gatherings, but will still be tired out no matter how much they like the people. My friends are extremely tiring, for example - but I still like them and spend time with them. I just have to schedule recovery days, take breaks from them, and avoid doing too much if a big event is coming up. I think with extraverts it is a lot mroo dependent upon the gathering - they will be energised by good conversation and fun interaction, but worn out by boring, inefficient, unpleasant, conflict-ridden, whatever they hate types of gatherings. NTs in particular seem rather picky, given the nature of standard social interaction. When in doubt, it's often extravert...


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Introverts can enjoy social gatherings, but will still be tired out no matter how much they like the people. My friends are extremely tiring, for example - but I still like them and spend time with them. I just have to schedule recovery days, take breaks from them, and avoid doing too much if a big event is coming up. I think with extraverts it is a lot mroo dependent upon the gathering - they will be energised by good conversation and fun interaction, but worn out by boring, inefficient, unpleasant, conflict-ridden, whatever they hate types of gatherings. NTs in particular seem rather picky, given the nature of standard social interaction. When in doubt, it's often extravert...


ic. for me, if i genuinely like the people or we're just friends that connect at a deep level, then nope, im not tired. that's rare though, so i usually just dont bother being social. it's not that i think im better or anything, i just don't enjoy it.
i like to be where the action is..does this make me an extrovert?
i think i am what you described..as being energised by good conversation and fun interaction..when people talk non-stop though i tend to zone out. and i absolutely hate small talk(how are you? i am fine. it's not like i can say anything else..) and talking about people's relationships and gossip and things. id rather talk about anything BUT "people talk." i don't care who is doing what or how hot whoever's dress looked on them. 
im still  tho..bc i am pretty introspective and like to take in stuff..but on occasion ill participate too...


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## Liontiger (Jun 2, 2009)

It is very possible to be a shy or quiet extravert, as I'm one myself at times. You crave _meaningful_ interaction, not just any old interaction. Many NTs and NFs share this attitude. Even extraverts have their limits, though. We need alone time just as introverts do, but we do it more to reflect than to recharge our batteries. Once we have sorted ourselves out internally, we can go back outside and play. An introvert, if I'm not mistaken, will occasionally "venture outside" before returning to their natural place within themselves. Those with dominant Ne, ENTP and ENFP, sometimes throw this generalization out of whack. It is possible to satisfy Ne all by oneself, so many ENxPs can appear introverted. Personally, I spend massive amounts of time reflecting, but I need social interaction to ground me and keep me sane. I had some social phobias as a young teen that kept me from interacting with people the way I needed to, and I was unstable because of it. Do you feel that you have the _urge_ to interact more with people, but there's something keeping you from doing so? (It also says "SAD issues" in your thread title. Does this affect you? I myself have annual bouts of mild depression in the summer.)

When you read the INTJ descriptions, do they really resonate with you? I don't really know you, but you don't give me an INTJ vibe. Tests are not the end-all-be-all of typing, and can only effectively serve as a starting point. Perhaps you could focus on learning more about each of the types and seeing which ones you relate to the most. The more knowledge you have of the system, the clearer things will become. Our forum has a lot of great resources, so you don't have to look far.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Staryu said:


> ic. for me, if i genuinely like the people or we're just friends that connect at a deep level, then nope, im not tired. that's rare though, so i usually just dont bother being social. it's not that i think im better or anything, i just don't enjoy it.
> i like to be where the action is..does this make me an extrovert?
> i think i am what you described..as being energised by good conversation and fun interaction..when people talk non-stop though i tend to zone out. and i absolutely hate small talk(how are you? i am fine. it's not like i can say anything else..) and talking about people's relationships and gossip and things. id rather talk about anything BUT "people talk." i don't care who is doing what or how hot whoever's dress looked on them.
> im still  tho..bc i am pretty introspective and like to take in stuff..but on occasion ill participate too...


You sound more extravert - not just because you want to be where the action is, but because you think that where the action is is outside your head and not inside. I love to be where the action is - inside my head. Outside is less action, less stimulating, less of everything pretty much.

Hating small talk is more an NT thing than it is an introvert thing. There _are_ introverts who like small talk - just less of it than an extravert. N can pass as introspection without being the same _sort_ of internal focus that an I would have.

It sounds more like you just genuinely dislike most people - but, although many introverts share that distaste, so do a lot of NTs who are extraverts. An introvert doesn't need dislike, a shitty conversation, _anything_ negative to shy away from interaction, especially past a certain point.

Check out the cognitive functions again - that may help.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

White said:


> It is very possible to be a shy or quiet extravert, as I'm one myself at times. You crave _meaningful_ interaction, not just any old interaction. Many NTs and NFs share this attitude. Even extraverts have their limits, though. We need alone time just as introverts do, but we do it more to reflect than to recharge our batteries. Once we have sorted ourselves out internally, we can go back outside and play. An introvert, if I'm not mistaken, will occasionally "venture outside" before returning to their natural place within themselves. Those with dominant Ne, ENTP and ENFP, sometimes throw this generalization out of whack. It is possible to satisfy Ne all by oneself, so many ENxPs can appear introverted. Personally, I spend massive amounts of time reflecting, but I need social interaction to ground me and keep me sane. I had some social phobias as a young teen that kept me from interacting with people the way I needed to, and I was unstable because of it. Do you feel that you have the _urge_ to interact more with people, but there's something keeping you from doing so? (It also says "SAD issues" in your thread title. Does this affect you? I myself have annual bouts of mild depression in the summer.)
> 
> When you read the INTJ descriptions, do they really resonate with you? I don't really know you, but you don't give me an INTJ vibe. Tests are not the end-all-be-all of typing, and can only effectively serve as a starting point. Perhaps you could focus on learning more about each of the types and seeing which ones you relate to the most. The more knowledge you have of the system, the clearer things will become. Our forum has a lot of great resources, so you don't have to look far.


well my alone time is used to reflect and be at peace..that's why i call it peace time. the part about venturing outside myself is confusing..well i do have an internal world and stuff..oh goodness, this is getting even more confusing..
i don't need social interaction to keep me sane and can do perfectly fine without it. i never understood my roommate and mother lecturing me to have more friends and be more social..im fine by myself and i don't NEED people, i just *sometimes* enjoy being with them(highly dependent on who it is). oh what i meant by SAD is social anxiety disorder..and yeah, ive definitely felt that way..that i want to be out there but just can't. so i spose i made do with what i had and figured i was an introvert.
as for the INTJ descriptions resonating with me..well a lot of it does but i like art and being expressive, spontaneous and flamboyant a bit more than your average INTJ(i thought this had to do with being a 5w4, THAT was freakishly spot-on)..the rest was pretty spot-on, including the weaknesses and the way i think. i figured there would be some variance in it though. the only letters im absolutely certain about at this time is the NT.im a weak J and E vs I..this is what im questioning at the moment.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

lirulin said:


> You sound more extravert - not just because you want to be where the action is, but because you think that where the action is is outside your head and not inside. I love to be where the action is - inside my head. Outside is less action, less stimulating, less of everything pretty much.
> 
> Hating small talk is more an NT thing than it is an introvert thing. There _are_ introverts who like small talk - just less of it than an extravert. N can pass as introspection without being the same _sort_ of internal focus that an I would have.
> 
> ...


well i like both. i like to be wear the action is but i also like to daydream. they both have action, but adrenaline rush/thrill seeking ill take any day over spending a day alone. but when making decisions, i absolutely have to plan everything out and i tend to make lots of lists. i also enjoy categorizing things. as for the J part, people have said im "intense" which is a vibe Js give off..right?
and the part about not being interested in people that much..kind of describes me. they talk too much, ask too many questions, and care too much about superficiality and being "normal". on the positive side, people can be awesome too. they can be helpful, insightful, and many other things too.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

What about ENTJ? It's not too far off. Te Ni Se Fi - same functions as an INTJ, just a different order.

If there is shyness, it does make a huge difference in how you act. My sister is ENFJ but I am far more outspoken and talkative than she is, because she is shy and I'm not and these days I even have more and bigger friends groups (which is so tiring....). SAD could tone down the behaviours, but the cognitive structure would be the same - most of the tests are more about behaviours, so they are not perfect. Also, the more dependent your socialising is on outside forces, the more likely it is an E. Just as introverts can still enjoy socialising, however much it requires energy exertion, extraverts can enjoy daydreaming and being alone - especially if they don't like the company that surrounds them.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

lirulin said:


> What about ENTJ? It's not too far off. Te Ni Se Fi - same functions as an INTJ, just a different order.
> 
> If there is shyness, it does make a huge difference in how you act. My sister is ENFJ but I am far more outspoken and talkative than she is, because she is shy and I'm not and these days I even have more and bigger friends groups (which is so tiring....). SAD could tone down the behaviours, but the cognitive structure would be the same - most of the tests are more about behaviours, so they are not perfect. Also, the more dependent your socialising is on outside forces, the more likely it is an E. Just as introverts can still enjoy socialising, however much it requires energy exertion, extraverts can enjoy daydreaming and being alone - especially if they don't like the company that surrounds them.


entj does seem like a possibility.ii would enjoy being in charge of an organization or running the country because i have a definite idea of how things should be..i also did well in management and organizational studies when i took the course..it felt like i was learning things i already knew. i do remember watching a movie with a definite ENTJ lady running things and being dictatorial..and going "damn, she's so badass, i wish i was bold enough to do that." 
the more dependent my socialising is on outside forces...i don't get this statement..
btw does anyone have a good cognitive functions test. the one i took wasn't good enough.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Staryu said:


> entj does seem like a possibility.ii would enjoy being in charge of an organization or running the country because i have a definite idea of how things should be..i also did well in management and organizational studies when i took the course..it felt like i was learning things i already knew.
> the more dependent my socialising is on outside forces...i don't get this statement..
> btw does anyone have a good cognitive functions test. the one i took wasn't good enough.


yeah, that could be more ENTJ. 

Dependent on outside...like introverts treat all socialising, on some level, as a chore/energy expenditure - it is a chore worth doing with good people but the basic turning against socialising is unchanged by the identity of the people or conversation topic. Extraverts seem to have their enjoyment more _dependent _on the people & the conversation topic, etc. Any introvert can prefer a certain group, hate small talk, etc., but none of this is the _reason_ we aren't big into socialising - it may justify an already existing tendency, or enhance it, contribute but it is not the main centre of introversion or the basic point. Is that clearer?

Sorry, I don't have a test - I find reading the descriptions works better for me anyways.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

lirulin said:


> yeah, that could be more ENTJ.
> 
> Dependent on outside...like introverts treat all socialising, on some level, as a chore/energy expenditure - it is a chore worth doing with good people but the basic turning against socialising is unchanged by the identity of the people or conversation topic. Extraverts seem to have their enjoyment more _dependent _on the people & the conversation topic, etc. Any introvert can prefer a certain group, hate small talk, etc., but none of this is the _reason_ we aren't big into socialising - it may justify an already existing tendency, or enhance it, contribute but it is not the main centre of introversion or the basic point. Is that clearer?
> 
> Sorry, I don't have a test - I find reading the descriptions works better for me anyways.


the problem with statements like "introverts treat socializing as a chore" is that these things are really misleading. it works both ways for me. most of the time it is a chore...
i once remember asking my mom, this was WAY before i had SAD issues, when i was about 10 or so "mom why do i have to go play with other kids and greet everyone who comes home?" and her reply was that "well if you don't it will make you mentally ill and it's mean." to this day, she still reminds me of that and lectures me on the importance of being friendly etc..i hate it and being "friendly" feels FAKE. i like to discuss ideas, but id be fine if i didn't have any friends.
i see..the statement "Any introvert can prefer a certain group, hate small talk, etc., but none of this is the _reason_ we aren't big into socialising - it may justify an already existing tendency, or enhance it, contribute but it is not the main centre of introversion or the basic point." makes somewhat sense..since introverts do not really like self-disclosure. i don't, because i don't really trust people.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Staryu said:


> the problem with statements like "introverts treat socializing as a chore" is that these things are really misleading. it works both ways for me. most of the time it is a chore...
> i once remember asking my mom, this was WAY before i had SAD issues, when i was about 10 or so "mom why do i have to go play with other kids and greet everyone who comes home?" and her reply was that "well if you don't it will make you mentally ill and it's mean." to this day, she still reminds me of that and lectures me on the importance of being friendly etc..i hate it and being "friendly" feels FAKE. i like to discuss ideas, but id be fine if i didn't have any friends.
> i see..the statement "Any introvert can prefer a certain group, hate small talk, etc., but none of this is the _reason_ we aren't big into socialising - it may justify an already existing tendency, or enhance it, contribute but it is not the main centre of introversion or the basic point." makes somewhat sense..since introverts do not really like self-disclosure. i don't, because i don't really trust people.


But is it a chore because it is socialising, or because it's fake and obnoxious? Is only the socialising that you dislike a chore? Spending time with my best friend and enjoying myself is still a chore to me - it's just one worth doing. And then I go nap/avoid people because I am worn out. Though she is less tiring than many, jerks are extra tiring, I stil am losing, not gaining energy when I am with anyone I like or love.
Your mother sounds....interesting...


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

lirulin said:


> But is it a chore because it is socialising, or because it's fake and obnoxious? Is only the socialising that you dislike a chore? Spending time with my best friend and enjoying myself is still a chore to me - it's just one worth doing. And then I go nap/avoid people because I am worn out. Though she is less tiring than many, jerks are extra tiring, I stil am losing, not gaining energy when I am with anyone I like or love.
> Your mother sounds....interesting...


it's difficult to pinpoint whether "it is a chore because it is socialising." but for me the annoyance with it is that it's fake..and probably obnoxious too. hmm..im the opposite. if my best friend is going on and on about something i could care less about, then yes, it is a chore. otherwise, certainly not. as long as they don't try to fill up every single moment with conversation, im fine. if they talk non-stop, im tired. my mom is an extreme extravert.


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## Knives (Jul 22, 2010)

I hate to be a mood killer, but there is more to ENTJs than the stereotypical running an organization or a country confused. I would be careful about typing people in movies and trying to relate to that, since I am pretty sure, a certain scientist once said that typing people on such a superficial basis was little more than a parlour trick.

To be helpful, I think that it is natural for introverts to envy some of the qualities of extraverts and vice versa. Especially a rational introvert, who can see the benefits of being an e. Making friends easily and such are also counterbalanced by negative traits such as being perceived as intimidating and controlling (i.e. you guys all want to take over a country...).



> but id be fine if i didn't have any friends.


I think you have your own answer in statements like this. :wink:


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

Knives said:


> I hate to be a mood killer, but there is more to ENTJs than the stereotypical running an organization or a country confused. I would be careful about typing people in movies and trying to relate to that, since I am pretty sure, a certain scientist once said that typing people on such a superficial basis was little more than a parlour trick.
> 
> To be helpful, I think that it is natural for introverts to envy some of the qualities of extraverts and vice versa. Especially a rational introvert, who can see the benefits of being an e. Making friends easily and such are also counterbalanced by negative traits such as being perceived as intimidating and controlling (i.e. you guys all want to take over a country...).
> 
> ...


true, my apologies for being superficial. i think ive got it cleared up now..yesterday i was discussing the possibility of me being an extravert with one of my friends and he said: so where does most of your energy come from? is it from inside or from outside yourself? my answer: inside. the times ive been most energized is when i felt like that, not from something i did.
what you said makes a lot of sense, there are benefits to both.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

I really don't envy being an extravert...


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## Everyday Ghoul (Aug 4, 2009)

Well, for what help it may offer, your cognitive function test results, in your signature, indicate a higher likelihood of you being a Thinker. ENTJ's are Thinkers and INTJ's are Intuitives. Ethical functions are usually accountable for a higher draw to social interaction, through emotional bonding. Te doms usually view social interaction and people as a means to an end. There is nothing in the nature of Te, outside of this logical view, that drives a need for social interaction. This is not to say, that Te doms cannot emotionally bond to others or that they don't value anyone for any other reasons, but these relationships are probably kept to family and a few close friends.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

Big bad wolf said:


> Well, for what help it may offer, your cognitive function test results, in your signature, indicate a higher likelihood of you being a Thinker. ENTJ's are Thinkers and INTJ's are Intuitives. Ethical functions are usually accountable for a higher draw to social interaction, through emotional bonding. Te doms usually view social interaction and people as a means to an end. There is nothing in the nature of Te, outside of this logical view, that drives a need for social interaction. This is not to say, that Te doms cannot emotionally bond to others or that they don't value anyone for any other reasons, but these relationships are probably kept to family and a few close friends.


i see. well the test i took wasn't entirely accurate but you may be right. what are ethical functions?
well im not sure..i DO enjoy connecting emotionally and stuff and don't think of them as means to an end..well not consciously anyway but it's really hard for me to feel safe enough to let it happen. when it does though, it's fabulous.


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## Everyday Ghoul (Aug 4, 2009)

Staryu said:


> i see. well the test i took wasn't entirely accurate but you may be right. what are ethical functions?
> well im not sure..i DO enjoy connecting emotionally and stuff and don't think of them as means to an end..well not consciously anyway but it's really hard for me to feel safe enough to let it happen. when it does though, it's fabulous.


Socionics uses the term ethics in place of feeler. I adapted it, because it removes the association of feelings and emotions conjured up by the word feeler, and accentuates the fact, that feeling functions are primarily centered around ethics. Though, a secondary trait of the feeling functions is a pull to the personal realm or the world of people. Anyway, feeling safe enough to let bonding occur, sounds like an issue, that could well be beyond full explanation through mere type theory. Some studies have been done around issues with shyness, depression, social phobia, personality disorders, etc. and type theory, but the results didn't seem very conclusive. A person with social phobia will almost assuredly test as an I, but I don't see the evidence to back, that it's an absolute truth. After all, such a condition is effecting a proper frame of mind. Plus, introversion in type theory, merely means your first function is introverted. When you involve social interaction, you might see an introverted feeler retire to solitude ahead of an extroverted one, but it's because they desire a return to their inner world first, and really this is conditional. If, say, you had an INTP and an ENFP in a social situation, assuming equal levels of comfort, an introduced ethical conflict would probably cause the ENFP to seek escape first. So, social interaction is anything but a reliable way to measure introversion and extroversion, around type theory.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

Big bad wolf said:


> Socionics uses the term ethics in place of feeler. I adapted it, because it removes the association of feelings and emotions conjured up by the word feeler, and accentuates the fact, that feeling functions are primarily centered around ethics. Though, a secondary trait of the feeling functions is a pull to the personal realm or the world of people. Anyway, feeling safe enough to let bonding occur, sounds like an issue, that could well be beyond full explanation through mere type theory. Some studies have been done around issues with shyness, depression, social phobia, personality disorders, etc. and type theory, but the results didn't seem very conclusive. A person with social phobia will almost assuredly test as an I, but I don't see the evidence to back, that it's an absolute truth. After all, such a condition is effecting a proper frame of mind. Plus, introversion in type theory, merely means your first function is introverted. When you involve social interaction, you might see an introverted feeler retire to solitude ahead of an extroverted one, but it's because they desire a return to their inner world first, and really this is conditional. If, say, you had an INTP and an ENFP in a social situation, assuming equal levels of comfort, an introduced ethical conflict would probably cause the ENFP to seek escape first. So, social interaction is anything but a reliable way to measure introversion and extroversion, around type theory.


i see. true, that makes sense, since people often associate "feeler" with "touchy-feely." um..i don't think i have a social *phobia* per se..it's not really a phobia. im not afraid or anything, i just get shy with new people and am usually quiet when forced to hang out with some people(but with other friends, i can go crazzyy LOL). well i do know i have Fi a lot stronger than Fe..that's for sure. but then what you said about the ENFP..which is an E..but has Fi..in spite of being the "most introverted of the extraverts" they still are Es. i know my strongest functions are Te, Fi, and the Ns.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

lirulin said:


> What about ENTJ? It's not too far off. Te Ni Se Fi - same functions as an INTJ, just a different order.


hmm..on the first cognitive function test i took it gave me Te Ni Fi Se. but the questions were confusing..i guess that makes me an ..entj? *confused*


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Staryu said:


> hmm..on the first cognitive function test i took it gave me Te Ni Fi Se. but the questions were confusing..i guess that makes me an ..entj? *confused*


It's a possibility. I wouldn't rely _too_ much on tests though - they can only point you in the right direction, and you'll know yourself best. I suspect you're maybe somewhat balanced on E/I, whichever you are. Maybe stalk both forums and see if either seems to fit better? There's also a thread about how/why INTJs can appear extraverted, maybe there's something in the ENTJ one about being less social? If not, you could start one and see if the responses have a ring of familiarity.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

update: so today i was at a baseball game, and i have never ever felt THIS energized in a LONG time. i am alone a lot, and my energy level is not even this close. i was so happy[yes my home team won, but i was thrilled yesterday even though the opposing team won too], and i was in the type of mood where id do crazy things:crazy:. as a kid i was also pretty impulsive and sometimes i can talk non-stop to people and not feel tired of it. but that is rare, since i hardly experience that kind of connection with anyone.
i am confused as to whether i am an introvert bc i am introspective, sort of shy, and i keep a diary.


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

Staryu said:


> update: so today i was at a baseball game, and i have never ever felt THIS energized in a LONG time. i am alone a lot, and my energy level is not even this close. i was so happy[yes my home team won, but i was thrilled yesterday even though the opposing team won too], and i was in the type of mood where id do crazy things:crazy:. as a kid i was also pretty impulsive and sometimes i can talk non-stop to people and not feel tired of it. but that is rare, since i hardly experience that kind of connection with anyone.
> i am confused as to whether i am an introvert bc i am introspective, sort of shy, and i keep a diary.


It sounds like you may have been using a lot of Se and it was energising you and not draining you which seems to suggest it is not your inferior function but maybe your tertiary?



Staryu said:


> it's difficult to pinpoint whether "it is a chore because it is socialising." but for me the annoyance with it is that it's fake..and probably obnoxious too. hmm..im the opposite. if my best friend is going on and on about something i could care less about, then yes, it is a chore. otherwise, certainly not. as long as they don't try to fill up every single moment with conversation, im fine. if they talk non-stop, im tired. my mom is an extreme extravert.


Possibly the 'fakeness' is due to Fe which is clashing with your possibly inferior Fi which wants to care about what it wants to care about.. And if they keep talking and you are just listening then you have to default to using your draining introverted functions Ni and Fi with a bit of Se.. I don't know:laughing: (Disclaimer: I don't know too much the difference between an INTJ and ENTJ.)


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> It sounds like you may have been using a lot of Se and it was energising you and not draining you which seems to suggest it is not your inferior function but maybe your tertiary?


i think you might be right..so Te>Ni>Se>Fi? i'm not sure, but this may be a possibility. i also love extreme sports and thrill rides, and can totally live off adrenaline.



pc3000;645127
Possibly the 'fakeness' is due to Fe which is clashing with your possibly inferior Fi which wants to care about what it wants to care about.. And if they keep talking and you are just listening then you have to default to using your draining introverted functions Ni and Fi with a bit of Se.. I don't know:laughing: (Disclaimer: I don't know too much the difference between an INTJ and ENTJ.)[/QUOTE said:


> How do you use Ni, Fi, and Se in a conversation?


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

> How do you use Ni, Fi, and Se in a conversation?


Haha, I'm just theorising here. I think at any time you are using either one or a combination of your functions.
I guess with Se you will be noticing details of what the person is saying and you might be using Ni to figure out the meaning of what they are saying, how it relates to what you know - just taking in/perceiving info. Then with your Fi you will be seeing how this fits with your values and stuff and making judgements with this people function.

Maybe once you have become comfortable with someone, they have passed by your Fi judging and then you can use your Te judging more to think about the things they are saying. But then if they talk too much they get judged by your Fi as talking too much/not listening to you etc and so you start to use more Fi and less Te and get drained.

Or maybe since Te is an external thing it requires you to be talking or doing stuff in order to be used.. I'm not sure if what I'm saying is right though.

I see Te as something you use when you are dealing with or considering things. And Fi as something you use when you are dealing with or considering people.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> Haha, I'm just theorising here. I think at any time you are using either one or a combination of your functions.
> I guess with Se you will be noticing details of what the person is saying and you might be using Ni to figure out the meaning of what they are saying, how it relates to what you know - just taking in/perceiving info. Then with your Fi you will be seeing how this fits with your values and stuff and making judgements with this people function.
> 
> Maybe once you have become comfortable with someone, they have passed by your Fi judging and then you can use your Te judging more to think about the things they are saying. But then if they talk too much they get judged by your Fi as talking too much/not listening to you etc and so you start to use more Fi and less Te and get drained.
> ...


details? heck no, i am not at all detail oriented and often forget little details. it drives people insane.
yup..i think the Ni part of trying to figure out the meaning of what they are saying. Fi..i don't often consider how what people are saying fits with my values..well there was one time when a guy said that "humans are the supreme animals" and i got offended because i am a vegetarian and he hurt my feelings. obviously i didn't show it, but i did feel really hurt inside. i shouldn't have been so sensitive, but it is a really important issue to me. i apologize in advance for being such a wuss...
the second paragraph seems about right..that's basically what i do.
well i know i use Te and Fi a lot..but Fi isn't always about people and Te isn't always about things. Fi is how i feel about things, Te is what i think should be done/interpreting things logically.


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

Staryu said:


> details? heck no, i am not at all detail oriented and often forget little details. it drives people insane.


I think remembering past details is a Si thing. SJs with the dominant or auxiliary Si are generally the ones with a memory for details.

Se is more about sensing or noticing things in the present such as when you noticed I used the word 'details'. Every bit of information you take in is via Se since in theory that is what you use to perceive the external world. Since Se is working with Ni the general idea behind the thing is stored internally while the actual details are left behind in the external world. Then when the idea needs to be produced from the Ni, the Se/Ni user needs to search around for the right details that relate to the idea.

Maybe the best way for a Se/Ni user to remember details is to go over or experience something again and again and again feeding in different or the same info via Se until the Ni makes the connection that yes, the battle of hastings was in 1066. I do not know what the battle of hastings is but some how my Ni has connected it to 1066.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> I think remembering past details is a Si thing. SJs with the dominant or auxiliary Si are generally the ones with a memory for details.
> 
> Se is more about sensing or noticing things in the present such as when you noticed I used the word 'details'. Every bit of information you take in is via Se since in theory that is what you use to perceive the external world. Since Se is working with Ni the general idea behind the thing is stored internally while the actual details are left behind in the external world. Then when the idea needs to be produced from the Ni, the Se/Ni user needs to search around for the right details that relate to the idea.
> 
> Maybe the best way for a Se/Ni user to remember details is to go over or experience something again and again and again feeding in different or the same info via Se until the Ni makes the connection that yes, the battle of hastings was in 1066. I do not know what the battle of hastings is but some how my Ni has connected it to 1066.


thanks, that made it a whole lot clearer!


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

Well I feel like that's how I use Se/Ni. Probably you'd use it slightly different since you'd use Ni before Se. So maybe you'd first see things how they relate to things in your head rather than the initial detail. And people with Se or Ni as their dominant or inferior function might also be a bit different.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> Well I feel like that's how I use Se/Ni. Probably you'd use it slightly different since you'd use Ni before Se. So maybe you'd first see things how they relate to things in your head rather than the initial detail. And people with Se or Ni as their dominant or inferior function might also be a bit different.


I think i use Ni+Se, especially since I filtered out the "details" part to express the fact that I don't think I'm detail-oriented[in ref to the earlier post u wrote]. So..does this make my function order Te>Ni>Se>Fi, or Ni>Te>Fi>Se. That part is confusing.
If I could choose I'd be an introvert. Introverts have an air of mystery about them whereas with extraverts it's all just out there. I stated this fact to eliminate the possibility of a bias on my part =P
It's kind of hard to picture myself as an extravert..I always thought I was an introvert..*totallyconfused*


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

Maybe you are probably an introvert then since you see yourself that way - maybe it's your Ni gut instinct? Lol.

Maybe your Ni is trying too much to see both sides of the picture since you have put forward a lot of reasons for both E and I so therefore Ni is really your dominant function?

I no longer believe that one of the things I suggested - that if you liked to use Se it is not your inferior function - is true since I heard some inferior Se-users like doing 'thrilling' stuff and you say you are not really detail orientated.


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> Maybe you are probably an introvert then since you see yourself that way - maybe it's your Ni gut instinct? Lol.
> 
> *Maybe your Ni is trying too much to see both sides of the picture since you have put forward a lot of reasons for both E and I so therefore Ni is really your dominant function?*
> 
> I no longer believe that one of the things I suggested - that if you liked to use Se it is not your inferior function - is true since I heard some inferior Se-users like doing 'thrilling' stuff and you say you are not really detail orientated.


i think you might be right on this one! LOL i like how you put it as "Ni gut instinct."
the bolded part pretty much sums up what has possibly happened on here =_=
either introvert or an ambivert. but probably an introvert >.>
I am definitely a thrill seeker that likes to live in the moment. The more extreme, the better. And the more action that's going on, the more interesting and FUN, at least for me.
I do think introverts can dress flamboyantly if they wish to ^_^
For the most part, I overlook details unless they relate to a general idea. I think that's the Ni+Te at work =P


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

update: took the E vs I test at 
How to Tell if You're An Introvert: An Easy Test to Determine Introverted Personality Traits
and i scored 10/23. The only true stmts were:
When I need to rest, I prefer to spend time alone or with one or two other people rather than with a group.
I feel anxious if I have a deadline or pressure to finish a project.
People sometimes say I’m aloof, quiet, and calm – and hard to get to know.
When I work on work or home projects, I like to have large uninterrupted chunks of time.
I like to share special occasions with just one person, or a few close friends, rather than a large group of people.
My mind sometimes goes blank when I’m asked a question or caught off guard.
I don’t enjoy being the center of attention or in the spotlight.
Groups of people make me uncomfortable or nervous.
I have few friends, but they’re very close to me.
I feel drained after social situations, even when I have a good time.

give or take two points..if this test is accurate, im a messed-up extravert. i think ive got it figured out now. if it helps, other people describe me as "too outspoken and opinionated", "in your face," restless & impulsive"..etc, from people who know me a bit more than coworkers/classmates. i don't know whether being introspective has anything to do with being Introvert..i mean, introverts can def be "out-there" & extros can be introspective too. i never think before i speak..i just say things as i am thinking them. that's one point i never understood when it came to being introverted..i just remember going "it's more sensible to think more before i speak, i should do that more." a lot of other things though, like being flamboyant, "in your face," DO seem pretty E. and i also read a bit further that "extroverts may like having friends, but they may have felt rejected in the past(yup that's what happened to me)." and weird as this sounds, i am not afraid of going up to talk to people..i actually enjoy it. some people may see that as obnoxious, but it's not. i like having good discussions and stuff. i think the biggest reason i kept scoring I is because of my slight social anxiety and "dislike of certain social situations." that, plus the fact that i think im a bit too "in-touch" with myself to be an extravert. cognitive functions says I but the test says E..now i don't know what to think:shocked:


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Also T-type extraverts are not all that people oriented. It is usually the F-type extraverts that fit the common definition of extraversion - going to parties, wanting to spend a lot of time with friends, etc. This is because feeling, either Fe or Fi, is their dominant or auxiliary function so in their mind people have a lot of value and are a focal point of their interest. For T-type extraverts their extraversion doesn't have to involve people - as for example my ENTP ex loved going out and taking photographs using different techniques, different lenses, eventually he constructed himself an infrared camera, bought a whole lot of other gadgets for this hobby. So he was going out into the world frequently for these types of extraverted adventures, but this did not involve people in any shape, except I guess store clerks and people on photography forums with whom he interacted. I also think that some T-types may feel like they lack social skills to deal with people competently which may add to their insecurity in social situations and make them "shy".

It is usually our extraverted functions that make us want to interact with the outside world. So if you think about what main need interaction with outside world satisfies for you, then you may be able to determine what your extraverted functions are.


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

There is this description of E/I from From the London Times, "Don't Look at Me!" but I know it is slightly straying from MBTI..



> INTROVERT OR EXTROVERT?
> by Dorothy Rowe, author of The Successful Self
> 1. You are asked to explain why you did something. If you always have an answer -- sensible or not -- you are an introvert. If your response tends to be, "I don't know, I just do things", you are an extrovert. Faced with a problem, introverts tend to think for some time before acting. Extroverts prefer to get started.
> 2. Your day is planned; something happens to disrupt it. If your reaction is one of anxiety and confusion, you are an introvert. If your first thought is, "How delightful and stimulating", you are an extrovert.
> ...


My issue with the test you posted is that it lists behaviours, while MBTI is more about attitudes towards things. Like the reacting to strong smells etc or noticing details is an S thing, not necessarily an introvert thing. Like my Se prevents me from zoning out if there's too much going on but I'm still definitely an introvert.

My current understanding of MBTI is that your second and third functions are mostly used to feed your dominant function. So an ENTJ uses Ni/Se to get info so it can carry out decisions with Te. While an INTJ uses Te/Fi to make decisions so it can get perceive things with Ni.
At The 16 Type Patterns are descriptions of the different roles the functions play.

Actually I also think there is another question to be considered: what difference does it make to you whether you are an ENTJ or INTJ? Because I think the advice you get for both cases will be the same - try to strike a balance between your top two functions Te and Ni. If you have been overusing Te to carryout your masterplan without considering all the different Ni possiblities you may get into difficulties. Likewise if you have been overusing Ni to consider all the different possibilities without leading to any logical Te action.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

This is the one of the better explanations of what extraversion and introversion mean in MBTI sense that I have seen: Game-Board Exegesis


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

vel said:


> Also T-type extraverts are not all that people oriented. It is usually the F-type extraverts that fit the common definition of extraversion - going to parties, wanting to spend a lot of time with friends, etc. This is because feeling, either Fe or Fi, is their dominant or auxiliary function so in their mind people have a lot of value and are a focal point of their interest. For T-type extraverts their extraversion doesn't have to involve people - as for example my ENTP ex loved going out and taking photographs using different techniques, different lenses, eventually he constructed himself an infrared camera, bought a whole lot of other gadgets for this hobby. So he was going out into the world frequently for these types of extraverted adventures, but this did not involve people in any shape, except I guess store clerks and people on photography forums with whom he interacted. I also think that some T-types may feel like they lack social skills to deal with people competently which may add to their insecurity in social situations and make them "shy".
> 
> It is usually our extraverted functions that make us want to interact with the outside world. So if you think about what main need interaction with outside world satisfies for you, then you may be able to determine what your extraverted functions are.


I love taking photographs! It's one of my favorite hobbies and I especially like to ask people for techniques and to compare shots. For me, the important thing is being able to capture the essence of a moment in a photo. 
The part "I also think that some T-types may feel like they lack social skills to deal with people competently which may add to their insecurity in social situations and make them "shy"..seems about right. What does " So if you think about what main need interaction with outside world satisfies for you, then you may be able to determine what your extraverted functions are" mean? That sentence is a bit fuzzy:mellow:


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

INTROVERT OR EXTROVERT?
by Dorothy Rowe, author of The Successful Self
1. You are asked to explain why you did something. If you always have an answer -- sensible or not -- you are an introvert. If your response tends to be, "I don't know, I just do things", you are an extrovert. Faced with a problem, introverts tend to think for some time before acting. Extroverts prefer to get started.
I usually have an answer and tend to think some time[for the important decisions, that is].
2. Your day is planned; something happens to disrupt it. If your reaction is one of anxiety and confusion, you are an introvert. If your first thought is, "How delightful and stimulating", you are an extrovert.
First thought is definitely "how stimulating". I don't mind getting plans messed up once in a while, it makes things more fun!
3. Extroverts want everybody to like and approve of them. Introverts want to win approval from a small group of people whose opinions they value.
the second one sounds more like me
4. Extroverts want to achieve in order to be liked. Introverts feel that achievement is important for its own sake.
the second one sounds more like me again
5.Which of the following matters to you more? Your relationship with other people or a sense of personal development, control and organization? The former makes you an extrovert, the latter an introvert.
A sense of personal development, control, and organization = introvert.
6. Introverts fear chaos because they feel that they will shatter into pieces, while extroverts fear being abandoned and rejected because they feel that they will disappear, They will look in the mirror and see no one there.
I fear being abandoned & rejected.
Counting up the points, I=1111 , E= 11. so according to your test..introvertroud:


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

vel said:


> This is the one of the better explanations of what extraversion and introversion mean in MBTI sense that I have seen: Game-Board Exegesis


the board game analogy said that I'm extraverted and Te is my dominant function(well obviously you come up with strategies to win in a monopoly game...at least that's how i look at it). 
but the one statement in the "ego orientation page" that stood out was "Ni: What is my own way of seeing things, independent of influences such as other people's ideas, other people's expectations, my culture, my language, or reality itself?" that one summed up my "search for self."


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> There is this description of E/I from From the London Times, "Don't Look at Me!" but I know it is slightly straying from MBTI..
> 
> My issue with the test you posted is that it lists behaviours, while MBTI is more about attitudes towards things. Like the reacting to strong smells etc or noticing details is an S thing, not necessarily an introvert thing. Like my Se prevents me from zoning out if there's too much going on but I'm still definitely an introvert.
> 
> ...


Well the MBTI terms seem a bit misleading at this point, but I know that when I make decisions I come up with a pro-con list and impacts of what each outcome would do and "what's best in the long-run"..I say that phrase a lot LOL. I don't know what functions that represents
It honestly doesn't make much of a difference, I'm just curious:crazy:.


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

Staryu said:


> It honestly doesn't make much of a difference, I'm just curious:crazy:.


Lol sounds like Ni wanting to look at different options! Sorry I have nothing more constructive to say!


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> Lol sounds like Ni wanting to look at different options! Sorry I have nothing more constructive to say!


Ni! Nigh! Ni it is then :crazy:


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