# Reservations about your current self-typing



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

basically, I thought this would be a good idea because it can get annoying having to dig up "type me" threads and/or posting all over different forums about it. so I thought I'd create a consolidated place where people can talk about their reservations. anyway, the rules are simple:
1) be gentle
2) don't randomly mention unrelated people and give unsolicited advice 
3) try not to use anything stated here as dirt against someone when arguing with them in another subforum.

if you're more sure of your type but want to talk out aspects of your type which confuse you and/or don't line up for some reason, you're welcome to do so here as well.


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

I'm pretty much positive that my main type is 7w6 Sp/So. I sometimes wonder about aspects of my tritype, mostly whether my heart type is a 3 or a 2. Seems like a lot of aspects of these two types get swapped back and forth.


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## Rala (Apr 1, 2015)

What exactly is the main difference between 478 and 468? I have settled for the former after reading about them, but it took me some time to do so. And while I lean considerably towards 478, I just want to be sure I typed myself correctly. How can I know for sure? What is a really big difference between the two?


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

@Swordsman of Mana Have a try on me. I type as 4w3-7w8-1w9 So/Sx. :triumphant:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Hybrid Shark Wolf said:


> @Swordsman of Mana Have a try on me. I type as 4w3-7w8-1w9 So/Sx. :triumphant:


I still see 6w7 So/Sx. as I've said before, Social 4 isn't too absurd. it's definitely a strong fix


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I still see 6w7 So/Sx. as I've said before, Social 4 isn't too absurd. it's definitely a strong fix


But your arguments for 6w7  despite pre-knowing of me...


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

9w8 as core is pretty clear (though I wonder about a 1-wing at times). My fixes have been messing with me lately. 

For whatever reason I've never been certain of my head fix - Six seemed most likely by default; I once had someone suggest Seven (lolno, though I did consider it...still lolno). And recent thoughts and feelings particularly regarding my lack of human relationships is making me seriously consider Five again. Perhaps I was mistaking a line to Six with an actual fix?

I recall asking in the mistype thread for differences between Three and Four fixers. For some reason Two never occurs to me...but yeah, I'm still not sure of my heart fix either.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Hybrid Shark Wolf said:


> But your arguments for 6w7  despite pre-knowing of me...


you seem more cerebral, argumentative and anxious than Social 4. you are sensitive, but not Social 4 sensitive. still, I will grant that you don't seem to have the _tangible_-related anxieties of most head types, but this could also be due to Sp-last


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you seem more cerebral, argumentative and anxious than Social 4. you are sensitive, but not Social 4 sensitive. still, I will grant that you don't seem to have the _tangible_-related anxieties of most head types, but this could also be due to Sp-last


What about tritype? :kitteh:


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> 9w8 as core is pretty clear (though I wonder about a 1-wing at times). My fixes have been messing with me lately.


I'm curious, why w8 over w1?

Also, I'm mostly sure of my tritype/fixes, but I admit I wonder about my heart-fix sometimes.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Hybrid Shark Wolf said:


> What about tritype? :kitteh:


641 for sure


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## Despotic Nepotist (Mar 1, 2014)

I currently type as an 8w9 sp/so, except I'm not as athletic as some of the 8 descriptions would imply, though I do care very much about maintaining a healthy body, and I'm also not confrontational, though if someone starts a heated argument with me, it's not as if I won't fight back, although at times, I have decided to let go of an argument for practical reasons. Additionally, I'm not insensitive. I'd say I have rather strong connections to both 2 and 5. Otherwise, I relate rather strongly to the motivations of the 8, though the same can be said with me and 5 lol.


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 641 for sure


Ok, I can consider 6 as fix, but not as a core. Because everything that is 6-ish comes from mental disorders. And me being a more cerebral 4 is because I'm an INFJ.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Distortions said:


> I'm curious, why w8 over w1?


Originally, it came from this:



> *Type Nine with an Eight Wing: *
> 
> 
> Type Nine is normally associated with serenity and contemplation, while Type Eight is associated with pushy aggressiveness. This combination is sometimes described as paradoxical, but it actually makes perfect sense, as long as we keep in mind that serenity and aggression are secondary consequences of the core motivations of Nine and Eight.
> ...


I seem more comfortable with anger than 9w1s are supposed to be (though, internally, I have a painfully Oneish perfectionistic streak that tends to do more harm than good). Yes, I suck at expressing needs, and I've found I often make up for it by trying to meet them myself. Which sounds Eightlike, I guess.

Back to anger, mine is more explosive, typically Eightish anger rather than One-like disgust. Someone on the Nine forum posted a gif set representing what anger is like for a 9w8 . 

It's *perfect*:

* *







> On the Outside
> 
> 
> 
> ...





 

Supposedly, 9w1 doesn't have internal (certainly not external) rage fits, rather, it's just hypercritical annoyance. Which I get, plenty, but the stuff in the tag? That's precisely what my anger feels like. 

Eh, not the best way to type myself, but it works.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Dark and Derisive said:


> I currently type as an 8w9 sp/so, except I'm not as athletic as some of the 8 descriptions would imply, though I do care very much about maintaining a healthy body, and I'm also not confrontational, though if someone starts a heated argument with me, it's not as if I won't fight back, although at times, I have decided to let go of an argument for practical reasons. Additionally, I'm not insensitive. I'd say I have rather strong connections to both 2 and 5. Otherwise, I relate rather strongly to the motivations of the 8, though the same can be said with me and 5 lol.


the motivations attributed to 8 can easily appeal to 5s, Social 2s, Sexual 4s, Self Preservation 3s, Sexual 6s, 7s or 1s. for curiosity's sake, could you elaborate on what made you consider core 8?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@ScientiaOmnisEst
Heh, I somewhat relate to those gifs too.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

It'd take a lot to convince me I'm not a 4. I posted here under username spectralsparrow, I think I was more active in the Four forums then. However, if anyone has any other ideas, I'm open.

I'm especially curious about my tritype. I think I'm a 459 but sometimes I wonder if I might be a 469. I have tried to read things to clarify the differences and it's hard because I relate to both (I think I relate to 6 less frequently... maybe even a lot less frequently... but the parts that resonate, resonate so well). I know I'm supposed to look at motivations but even that is hard to say because it's not my primary anyway.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> ....


You're a two heart now? That just doesn't seem right to me at all. I could see three or four, which I know in the past you've flopped back and forth between. Why two?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Quernus said:


> You're a two heart now? That just doesn't seem right to me at all. I could see three or four, which I know in the past you've flopped back and forth between. Why two?


3 is completely out of the question (possibly the single type I relate to least, I typed that way in the past mostly off of stereotypes and external pressure), but a 4 fix isn't off the table (especially given it would be _Sexual_ 4. still, I can't say I struggle much with envy or feelings of defectiveness).


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## fair phantom (Mar 5, 2015)

My gut fix confuses me. I think I let things go when it makes sense to do so, I'm generally forgiving, and I often withdraw when I sense I am about to get angry (especially if over something stupid), and I think I'm a pretty receptive person, so I went with 9. 

But I can be assertive and even express my anger when I think it is important. I stick up for myself and others if I think it is the right thing to do. And I only really get angry at myself for doing so if I think the anger was excessive or unjustified. In short I think I am a bit more comfortable with my anger than 9-fixed people are supposed to be?


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Heh, the whole thing about Fours wanting to be special/unique is what caused me to think I had a Four fix. Finding out that isn't quite so is what made me question it.


In reference to the last couple of posts, I know I've always had a feeling of not-fitting-in, but not quite to the extent of feeling like an alien. Just a messed up human who...developed wrong, I guess. And I guess I switch between wishing I was "normal" in some regards and being happily strange in others. I can't really say I'm looking for people I have things in common with - I kind of don't have enough of a personality for that. Like I don't even know what I would be looking for in terms of company.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Animal said:


> I don't want to be unique - I just _am_, and I look for commonality to feel less isolated... but it's like I'm hunting a planet overrun with Earthlings for other members of my species, just so I won't be so alone. I resent (sometimes envy, sometimes pity) people who can be content with a white-picket life and fit into paradigms of marriage and please each other. I can never be that, as much as it would make things easier and make me lovable - it would be dishonest to my true nature. Being "unique" means being separate and different and thus isolated, and it is depressing and sometimes infuriating. I also sometimes wonder if ... perhaps everyone is just as "unique" or "otherplanetary" as I am, but they are just wearing human-masks? I don't know.. I have lots of feelings about this issue, but _wanting_ to be unique is not one of them. It would be like wanting to be female... (I am cis-female) .. it's not something I can help, and it can be painful, but I don't fit into that human-mask that most people seem to wear so easily.


I'm a 7 but I get this too, it's far more subtle and in the background but sometimes I question why I had to be a weirdo. Makes really difficult to find friends IRL and to not be judged for stupid reasons, and at the moment I've only been able to be myself with online friends, who live realy far away. It's like I'm in the wrong society, and that sucks when people are like when you will have a boyfriend and I think, yeah sure. I won't let anyone close to me if barely have anything in common with the people that I know here as that would be rather destructive in the long run thanks to innecesary conflicts. Basically I prefer to be alone than to deal with that annoyance, and the few times that I got along with friends I ended losing contact with them.


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

Ok, I settled down on 7w6


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## Despotic Nepotist (Mar 1, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Heh, the whole thing about Fours wanting to be special/unique is what caused me to think I had a Four fix. Finding out that isn't quite so is what made me question it.


Well, the desire to distinguish one's self is a characteristic of the Heart triad in general.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Heh, the whole thing about Fours wanting to be special/unique is what caused me to think I had a Four fix. Finding out that isn't quite so is what made me question it.


If I had a dollar for every time a 2, 3, 6, 7, 9 went on about how how they're so UNIQUE and WEIRD and MISUNDERSTOOD, I'd be freaking rich.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Dark and Derisive said:


> Well, the desire to distinguish one's self is a characteristic of the Heart triad in general.


And it's a desire that characterises a fair part of my psyche. Which makes me want to know my fix even more (I've wondered if I could be a core heart type. Someone I was talking to off the forum tried to guess my enneatype and thought 3w4. Found it funny I'm a 9w8. Yeah, I'm almost definitely a Nine core).




Paradigm said:


> If I had a dollar for every time a 2, 3, 6, 7, 9 went on about how how they're so UNIQUE and WEIRD and MISUNDERSTOOD, I'd be freaking rich.


Sowwy.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't feel a strong desire to be unique either, though at the same time I also don't feel like much of an outcast (I mean, I might have felt like that at times, but it's not very permeating). Not that I see myself as very "normal" but idk. I'm not sure what normal _is _in a way... I feel I'm more likely to see things in terms of inferior/superior/equal.

Reminds me though, I started filling out how I relate or not to those core beliefs (starting with the heart types). I probably should continue that.


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## Despotic Nepotist (Mar 1, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> And it's a desire that characterises a fair part of my psyche. Which makes me want to know my fix even more (I've wondered if I could be a core heart type. Someone I was talking to off the forum tried to guess my enneatype and thought 3w4. Found it funny I'm a 9w8).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You could be a 9w8 with a strong connection to 3, but then again, we all have a Heart fix in our tritype, so technically, we all want to distinguish ourselves in one way or another. It's part of human nature.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Dark and Derisive said:


> You could be a 9w8 with a strong connection to 3, but then again, we all have a Heart fix in our tritype, so technically, we all want to distinguish ourselves in one way or another. It's part of human nature.


Eh, true. I've considered that I might have a strong 3-connection, if it isn't my fix.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Hybrid Shark Wolf said:


> Ok, I settled down on 7w6


Behold: a 7 settling down!! 


(this is not intended to refute your typing  I just... couldnt resist)


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Distortions said:


> I feel I'm more likely to see things in terms of inferior/superior/equal.


Ouch, me too.


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## cerenach (Mar 26, 2015)

I could've used this thread about a month or two ago...

How do I settle on a wing? I don't feel a strong attachment to 5 or 7 and instead volley between the two depending on my mood and energy level. 

You have to understand. It took a lot out of me to settle on 6. I don't know if I have any strength left to verify the rest. I need someone to "support and guide" me. Someone to wipe away my fear tears and carry me to self-actualization.


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

Animal said:


> Behold: a 7 settling down!!
> 
> 
> (this is not intended to refute your typing  I just... couldnt resist)


ahahaha :laughing:


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## galactic collision (May 1, 2014)

Paradigm said:


> If I had a dollar for every time a 2, 3, 6, 7, 9 went on about how how they're so UNIQUE and WEIRD and MISUNDERSTOOD, I'd be freaking rich.


:crazy::crazy::crazy: but i'm special!!! :crazy::crazy::crazy:

my mom said so


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Sowwy.


Actually, I wasn't talking about you in particular. It's just... _really _common in people to feel unique. Or to feel like they're different, or that they don't fit in. Or whatever anti-mainstream concept you can think of.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Animal said:


> I don't want to be unique - I just _am_, and I look for commonality to feel less isolated... but it's like I'm hunting a planet overrun with Earthlings for other members of my species, just so I won't be so alone. I resent (sometimes envy, sometimes pity) people who can be content with a white-picket life and fit into paradigms of marriage and please each other. I can never be that, as much as it would make things easier and make me lovable - it would be dishonest to my true nature. Being "unique" means being separate and different and thus isolated, and it is depressing and sometimes infuriating. I also sometimes wonder if ... perhaps everyone is just as "unique" or "otherplanetary" as I am, but they are just wearing human-masks? I don't know.. I have lots of feelings about this issue, but _wanting_ to be unique is not one of them. It would be like wanting to be female... (I am cis-female) .. it's not something I can help, and it can be painful, but I don't fit into that human-mask that most people seem to wear so easily.
> 
> @_Quernus_


Well, I relate to this as well. I guess I should clarify. When I say I "want" to be unique, it's not like... I don't know. It's not like I don't want connection or commonality. I do. So much.

However: I want to have some special meaning, to the people I am close to, to the few people who "understand" the "real" me. Since most people "don't". I am terrified of being replaceable. In terms of "personal meaning".

Now. As far as *actually* being different/unique. I feel alien in ways I can't help, and it's always been that way. I was picked on constantly growing up and I tried to fit in when I was younger -- I still sometimes do, because it's highly uncomfortable to feel like there's something wrong or defective about me. But for the most part, I gave up trying to fit in, or feel part of the flow of everything else, because... it's futile. I am disjointed always.

However, I differentiate between my desire to fit in/to not feel defective, from my desire to have personal significance. In my ideal world, I would first of all exist as my "ideal" self, which is vivid in my mind. I would in fact feel more connected and a part of every day life, and I would fit in, and have more social grace and influence. But I would be admired for the talents/skills I have (or think I have), I would be a meaningful part of some people's lives -- irreplaceable. 

Meanwhile I struggle with this compulsion to apologize for my existence in the first place, in the way I live my life, the way I make myself seem innocent and "fluffy" to avoid emotional assault (...like, if people think I'm soft, then maybe they'll be gentle with me, and I won't have to deal with personal attacks and the need to defend myself etc etc), the way I move my body. It's very nine-ish but it also pisses me off and is not how I want to be, and without anxiety/trauma issues I don't think it WOULD be this way. Time will tell since I've only recently started making an effort to fight against what holds me back so much. It's soooo not the way I want to be perceived anymore, and it feels sooo frustratingly discordant with who I "really" am. (...But this probably largely irrelevant to enneagram)


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

aurly said:


> Edit: fun fact. I had almost the same reaction as below when I mistyped myself the first time (as a 9, lol)


Very funny fact, yeah.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> If I had a dollar for every time a 2, 3, 6, 7, 9 went on about how how they're so UNIQUE and WEIRD and MISUNDERSTOOD, I'd be freaking rich.


Well, maybe it's just part of the human condition, to some degree, to commonly feel this way or rationalize things this way. Not that it's inevitable. I don't think I've ever heard an Eight say this kinda BS, for example, but I also don't know many Eights.

I feel like... I have this ongoing struggle between feeling defective/misunderstood, wanting to have a purposeful/irreplaceable identity, feeling like I'm drowning in my passion, but then back to hating my "weirdness", then getting high off of statements from others like "You're unlike anyone else I know" "I can tell you understand things in a way most people don't" blablabla, then disgusted by my self-involvement, but then terrified of my own unexceptional...ness.

When I say "I want to be unique", I realize this is extremely annoying, and I don't like admitting it, or anything. It's one component to my identity issues. I want to take my "inevitable" alienness and channel it into something meaningful, though fear I never can.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> You do? Because 4s typically don't.
> 
> 
> Edit: fun fact. I had almost the same reaction as below when I mistyped myself the first time (as a 9, lol)


I'm trying to give this some serious thought because... why not. So I'm reading this: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-4-and-9/

Ehhh. I really strongly relate to both. How irritating.

I think that I am far more disturbed by the idea of not being myself (or not being true to myself), than anything else. If I sat back to keep the peace while denying my true thoughts and feelings on something important to me, I'd go bonkers. Feeling authentic comes before anything else. Lack of meaning destroys me (and thanks to enneagram I realize how deluded this all is, but it's still what I feel/experience)

_---Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. 

--Nines, on the other hand, disengage emotionally from things that will cause them pain and upset.
_

WELL, I kinda of do both?! But primarily I withdraw so I can process my emotions, which I'm acutely aware of. They feel important to me, critical, too critical, so I withdraw into a world where they feel validated and I can indulge them in peace. On the other hand, I certainly have a reflex to avoid/numb emotions that are *too* strong, because it's too hard. But I feel them, first. Ultimately, I withdraw to cope with strong emotions, but I don't float around feeling detached by default.


_-"Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting"
*-"Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life."*
_
I do NOT see the world through rose-coloured glasses, like... I am all about seeing the raw, gritty, bittersweet tragedies of existence, and I revel in that. The last part of that excerpt, in bold, sums everything up about how I observe myself in relation to the world.

Sooo....... yeah.... I think I'm a four.... with a very strong Nine fix that keeps me out of trouble, but doesn't drive my main motivations in life.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> _---Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions.
> 
> --Nines, on the other hand, disengage emotionally from things that will cause them pain and upset.
> _
> ...


This is a key point - and it is reflexes like this that you should pay careful attention to, because they reveal your unconscious - 4s do not reflexively numb their emotions. Called "drama queens" for a reason, 4s will _intensify_ them (and after every outburst, brood on them for days). The 4, and especially 4w5, may not _express_ the emotion directly, but will actually try to hold on to it for as long as possible. I say "try" but it's not really conscious, or intentional, a 4 has to learn to recognize when they're doing that. Numbing emotions is a skill I wish I had.



Quernus said:


> _-"Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting"
> *-"Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life."*
> _
> I do NOT see the world through rose-coloured glasses, like... I am all about seeing the raw, gritty, bittersweet tragedies of existence, and I revel in that. The last part of that excerpt, in bold, sums everything up about how I observe myself in relation to the world.
> ...


Trauma, like you mentioned earlier you experienced, can certainly change one's view of the world. I'm sorry you had to grow up like that.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Quernus said:


> Yeah, it's hard when there's so much overlap between possible traits. Hence why motivation is important.
> 
> I guess the important question to start with is, *why* do you hold back that anger?


I suppose much of it is due to how uncomfortable I am with expressing strong emotions- it feels extremely uncomfortable to do so. I guess part of it stems from how I was volatile when I was little and prone to meltdowns. I considered those meltdowns to be shameful so I just decided to encorporate an iron grip on my emotions. At least that's how I remember it (my memory is horrendous).


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Quernus said:


> I appreciate this so much! Thank you for taking the tiime!!
> 
> I've always assumed I can't be a 7 head type because I'm... Um.... So intensely drawn to darkness (in my own time) and melancholy and sentimentalism, wanting to explore everything within me. I bring everything in. And I identify strongly with my overall pain but I do have a strange relationship with immediate pain that I'm still trying to sort out...
> 
> i differentiate between immediate pain and internalized ongoing pain.... Or any emotion really.


No worries, I hope you can manage to gain some certainty on your head fix 

From what I understand about 7's, they do have a relationship with darknesss, some other 7's might be able to better explain it but although they are a positive outlook type, a main motivation is to not be tied down, to have freedom, to avoid doom and gloom and boredom because boredom leaves an empty space that is painful. It's not to do with extraversion but to avoid the dull existence of life.

Btw, I used to do the DBT thing also, very helpful, great with learning new life skills etc. I understand it helps you better be equipped with finding new ways of immediatly deal with painful issues and such. I've taken that into account in how you manage pain and am gonna post this 7 description if you havn't read it already, Ocean Moonshine is quite good. 

In the meantime, I can just post some other excerpts from books that might be helpful to mull over if we end up discussing this at some length, it's helpful to look at a number of sources.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> I appreciate this so much! Thank you for taking the tiime!!
> 
> I've always assumed I can't be a 7 head type because I'm... Um.... So intensely drawn to darkness (in my own time) and melancholy and sentimentalism, wanting to explore everything within me. I bring everything in. And I identify strongly with my overall pain but I do have a strange relationship with immediate pain that I'm still trying to sort out...
> 
> i differentiate between immediate pain and internalized ongoing pain.... Or any emotion really.


It's apparently fairly common for 7s to mistype as 4s which will at first seem odd because 7s are typically described as shallow happy people, but there's a lot of stuff going on below the surface.

Very 7ish signature by the way


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

aurly said:


> Very 7ish signature by the way


What type is my signature out of curiosity


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

mushr00m said:


> What type is my signature out of curiosity


A bit French D:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

actually never mind.. I need to redo this


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Really, the only part of my typing that seems somewhat out of place is me never having had too much difficulty acknowledging my own anger. Doesn't mean I was always comfortable expressing it to other people, and I have held back a lot, too much, too often, and not just anger. But I have never *not* been aware of my frustrations, anger, rage, or any other intense emotion. Sometimes there might be a slight delay of a few minutes, but that's it.

Apart from that.. fits like a glove.. Bah..:sadcloud:




Anywayszz...
:rockon:


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

mushr00m said:


> No worries, I hope you can manage to gain some certainty on your head fix
> 
> From what I understand about 7's, they do have a relationship with darknesss, some other 7's might be able to better explain it but although they are a positive outlook type, a main motivation is to not be tied down, to have freedom, to avoid doom and gloom and boredom because boredom leaves an empty space that is painful. It's not to do with extraversion but to avoid the dull existence of life.


Yeaaah. I often say that I hate boredom more than almost anything, and can't stand to be trapped in dullness. Generally in the sense of wanting to feel like I'm aligned with meaningful things in life, things I believe in and that resonate passionately with my core values. I do want more -- but only when I really think about it. I wouldn't say I'm driven or primarily motivated by this? Plus, funny thing is, I *am* trapped in dullness, my life (as per my evaluation) is such a boring failure (even though others might not agree).... But, I escape into my own head to get away from it (fantasies, idealizing) instead of going outwards to find exciting stimuli. 

as per that (awesome) link:


> _"Given such an ebullient description, it might be difficult to appreciate the fact that Sevens are essentially fear types who are in flight from pain, always striving to remain one step ahead of their inner demons. But such is the case. There is a sort of existential claustrophobia at the heart of enneatype Seven. They sense that the walls are always just about to close in. They therefore develop strategies for escape. These strategies are primarily mental, and Sevens, like Fives and Sixes, are fixated in the mental center. Sevens are full of plans for the future, exciting ideas, original thoughts and unusual attitudes. They like to fantasize and conceptualize, but as soon as they attempt to work through the fine details of their ideas or plans, they tend to feel constrained. *To escape this feeling of constraint, Sevens push forward into action.* *They look outside themselves for their means of escape."
> *_


I do feel in flight from new pain but I also feel like I carry my old pain with me so much, that any more will break me, and I'm constantly aware of it. If anything, I'm a little obsessed with my own inner demons -- but that isn't to say I might not have blind spots, or certain demons that I'm avoiding without realizing.

The part I underlined, I relate to completely. But then the part in bold is not like me at all -- Sevens deal with constraints by moving on to something else, by moving into action. I deal with constraints by going inwards where actions don't matter so much.

Definitely don't relate to the "being cool, knowing cool people" thing, lmao, but that's not really that important.

The Sevens I know tend to be very upbeat and energetic. I am also extremely energetic, mentally and physically I do not stay still. But I also have ADHD. And I don't know if I'm upbeat so much as "airy". The Sevens I know tend to be pretty dismissive and invalidating of others' pain, and I'm not that way at all. And they are so easily able to just put a positive spin on things and move on, I just kind of feel like "o_o No, we are still dealing with this other thing, come back". 

I'm really a pretty negative person -- or cynical, I guess? Which Sevens can be, in a weird way, especially when disintegrating to One. But they have the wealth of positivity they draw from the rest of the time whereas most positivity I put forth feels feigned and I'm very aware of this (unless I actually feel positively about something, which isn't impossible, but I far more often feel like I'm feigning. I used to be SUPER negative and brooding all the time but I learned that doesn't help me much in life so...). 

I dunno, lots to think about though. I never realized there was so much overlap. And if I'm not a Core-Seven but still a Seven-fix, that could explain why I relate in many ways but am not consumed by the same motivations and fears...


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> It's apparently fairly common for 7s to mistype as 4s which will at first seem odd because 7s are typically described as shallow happy people, but there's a lot of stuff going on below the surface.


It makes sense, both can be very epicurean and drawn to richness and vibrancy.

Though, Sevens go outside themselves to avoid the stuff bubbling below the surface. I go inside of myself to make sure I have a handle on the bubbling and that it doesn't overflow. If that makes sense? I dunno. But basically Sevens focus outwards, I am trapped inwards.


> Very 7ish signature by the way


I go through phases of listening to this song repeatedly and I'm currently in such a phase. It resonates so much. It was challenging to choose which lyric/verse to use, because so many of them hit me square in the heart and take my breath away.


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

Quernus said:


> It makes sense, both can be very epicurean and drawn to richness and vibrancy.
> 
> Though, Sevens go outside themselves to avoid the stuff bubbling below the surface. I go inside of myself to make sure I have a handle on the bubbling and that it doesn't overflow. If that makes sense? I dunno. But basically Sevens focus outwards, I am trapped inwards.
> 
> ...


I definitely see you as 6w7 or 7w6 over any type of five for what it's worth, just based on reading this whole thread and seeing you around a bit. Btw, Idk if you mentioned it here, but where are you instinct wise?


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

As for me, sometimes I think I might be sx/so rather than so/sx but I doubt it. I've been getting more 'so' every day. I am also constantly questioning whether I have a 3w2 or 2w3 fix though at the moment I strongly relate to 3w2 to the extent where if I was more motivated I'd think I might possibly be one. I guess my real question right now is pretty trivial and that is just whether I am a 793 or a 739. And whether I am really a 9w8 fix and not 9w1, but that's not really pressing. I've been relating a lot more to 1 lately and I'm not sure if that's just because of being a social seven or disintegration or if I actually am more 9w1 or what. 

I feel pretty lucky that I have always been pretty sure of my core type at least. Seven is a pretty obvious typing for me. I'm watching tv, drinking wine, playing the sims and posting here while occasionally checking pinterest, facebook, cracked and webcomics. This is pretty normal for me. And I'm almost bored.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Kitfool said:


> I definitely see you as 6w7 or 7w6 over any type of five for what it's worth, just based on reading this whole thread and seeing you around a bit. Btw, Idk if you mentioned it here, but where are you instinct wise?


Thank you!
I am starting to wonder about my online personality... Lmao 
SP/SX!


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, now that I feel more like myself again, 9 actually seems kind of silly for core. >_> Whoops.

But there's one thing I'm wondering about, and don't feel like creating a topic about it. As I understand type 6 tends to have issues with authority, and I suppose I can in a sense... but I don't really care if they're trustworthy, or anything like that. So I'm not sure how related to type 6 my focus on power-dynamics are.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> Thank you!
> I am starting to wonder about my online personality... Lmao
> SP/SX!


Allow me to poke you a bit more. I'll try to be gentle 

I think I now understand what I saw when I said you were "fluffy" and didn't seem to have something I see in most 4s. What it means is you do not seem to be a reactive type. I would place you in the _positive outlook_ triad. You're not provocative, you're _suggestible_.

However, I think I was wrong about you being a 9. Your response to my accusation did not seem to be anger-based, but also not shame-based. Rather, it seemed _fear_-based. Like you were stung by a wasp.

I think you're a core _seven_.

How do you relate to these? http://thechangeworks.com/blog/tcblog28.html

In particular, the SX/Intimate bits?

And as a final question, is that you in your avatar? If so you also have 7ish eyes, though that doesn't have to mean anything.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> Allow me to poke you a bit more. I'll try to be gentle
> 
> I think I now understand what I saw when I said you were "fluffy" and didn't seem to have something I see in most 4s. What it means is you do not seem to be a reactive type. I would place you in the _positive outlook_ triad. You're not provocative, you're _suggestible_.


Thank you. And you don't have to be gentle, lmao... I was taken very off guard before but I still prefer the truth. And I appreciate the time and input. I am entertaining this. But there are some things that I don't agree with or that I'm very confused about: I'm super reactive, to be honest. As just one example: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/127307-reactive-types-4-6-8-a.html 



> "The reactive types tend to want to get a reaction from others. When a reactive type is upset, they don't want the other person to stay calm. They want to see their negative emotions mirrored by others. They are often referred to as the "truth tellers of the enneagram" for the simple reason that reactive types can pick up on the more troubled aspects of a situation before other types do. If the positive outlook types err by focusing too much on the positive, reactive types can err by focusing too much on the negative. What they're seeing may, in fact, be there, but what comes across as barely perceptible to other types comes across like a flashing neon sign to the reactive types, and it's very difficult for them to not address it."


This is me completely. I love provoking people, to break up the monotony and bring out their true colours for a moment. It pisses me off to be ignored, or to be shut out -- to the point I feel "ignored" or "shut out" when people are acting neutral towards an entire situation that isn't even specifically about me, because I'm like, "CAN'T YOU SEE?". I feast on rawness. I am very intense one-on-one ---- but not in group settings. And, I also get really antsy and frustrated when people aren't reacting "proportionately" to situations (but, my perspective is skewed, because there are situations/emotions I'm not equipped to handle right away - again I think this is trauma-based - and selectively I minimize those temporarily)).

I don't see how I could possibly be considered a positive outlook type because I cannot ever deal with sweeping "important" (this is subjective lol) things under the rug, I do not automatically look for the positives in a situation, and I certainly don't fixate on them. There is VERY LITTLE I hate more than when people tell me I'm overreacting, in any sense -- whether it's about something personal or about something related to politics or whatever the hell I am passionate about during that phase. I basically had an existential crisis when I was 17-18 over how everyone seems to be "overly content" to live a lie.... but that's another story, and it's another reason I have entertained six... for some reason.



> However, I think I was wrong about you being a 9. Your response to my accusation did not seem to be anger-based, but also not shame-based. Rather, it seemed _fear_-based. Like you were stung by a wasp.


It did feel like being stung by a wasp but the funny thing is that time and time again, that is how I describe the feeling of shame. Being stung. I did feel a bit of anger, fear, AND shame... as usual I have many emotions tied up in each other. I am extremely ashamed of how I appear to be coming across, and of certain minimizing habits I have but feel are not "really me", and I also felt afraid because I don't want to not know myself. And I have gained a lot from learning about Four (since I relate to nearly all of it... even parts I thought I didn't, initially, like the rescuer thing -- I do relate, just not in the way it's usually described)). 



> I think you're a core _seven_.
> 
> How do you relate to these? http://thechangeworks.com/blog/tcblog28.html
> 
> In particular, the SX/Intimate bits?


That said, I relate to most of the SX/intimate 7 description, so now I'm confused. I know both 4 and 7 are also frustration types, so that's probably relevant as well.



> And as a final question, is that you in your avatar? If so you also have 7ish eyes, though that doesn't have to mean anything.


That is me! I dunno what "Sevenish eyes" look like but. I do get a lot of comments on my eyes/the expressions behind them. Haha.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Quernus said:


> Thank you. And you don't have to be gentle, lmao... I was taken very off guard before but I still prefer the truth. And I appreciate the time and input. I am entertaining this. But there are some things that I don't agree with or that I'm very confused about: I'm super reactive, to be honest. As just one example: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/127307-reactive-types-4-6-8-a.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It might be important to note --- my thoughts cycle very, very quickly. I am a rapid thinker and feeler. So I know a lot of what I say can seem kind of contradictory or paradoxical, but everything is also really just very multifaceted for me and always has been. On top of just being naturally hypersensitive and hyper-analytical, I also have ADHD, PTSD, and probably Bipolar II (I'm diagnosed with major unipolar depression but... my psychiatrist and I are considering otherwise at this point). I don't chalk it all up to mental illness though. I think I am literally able to entertain so many different thoughts and ideas at once, fight with my subconscious, web and weave and branch out different connotations or thought pathways, and come back to a conclusion before anyone would have even thought I had time to begin to consider something. Like in the movies where someone time travels and goes on this huge long adventure and then returns to the same moment in time, so to everyone else nothing has happened. But to the person, they just explored a whole new world.

Maybe that's how it is for most? But I kind of don't think so. Time in my brain is kind of like a dream, where so much can be condensed into a very small space and you're convinced you dreamt the same dream for hours but it was just a few minutes. Sort of. So like I might describe how I am in certain situations because I am intensely remembering a very small fragmented memory but it's not as overarching or predominant as it might sound? Because there are so many fragments/puzzle pieces/components and they're all very important to me/deeply internalized.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> It might be important to note --- my thoughts cycle very, very quickly. I am a rapid thinker and feeler. So I know a lot of what I say can seem kind of contradictory or paradoxical, but everything is also really just very multifaceted for me and always has been. On top of just being naturally hypersensitive and hyper-analytical, I also have ADHD, PTSD, and probably Bipolar II (I'm diagnosed with major unipolar depression but... my psychiatrist and I are considering otherwise at this point). I don't chalk it all up to mental illness though. I think I am literally able to entertain so many different thoughts and ideas at once, fight with my subconscious, web and weave and branch out different connotations or thought pathways, and come back to a conclusion before anyone would have even thought I had time to begin to consider something. Like in the movies where someone time travels and goes on this huge long adventure and then returns to the same moment in time, so to everyone else nothing has happened. But to the person, they just explored a whole new world.
> 
> Maybe that's how it is for most? But I kind of don't think so. Time in my brain is kind of like a dream, where so much can be condensed into a very small space and you're convinced you dreamt the same dream for hours but it was just a few minutes. Sort of. So like I might describe how I am in certain situations because I am intensely remembering a very small fragmented memory but it's not as overarching or predominant as it might sound? Because there are so many fragments/puzzle pieces/components and they're all very important to me/deeply internalized.


This is how the type 7 mind is often described. Some call it the "Monkey Mind". There's no doubt in my mind anymore, you're totally a 7 ^_^
I'd say 7w6, sx based on what I've seen.

As for the eyes, 7s often have a kind of bright, optimistic, _alert_ eyes. And when they're excited about something, you see them sparkle. <3 the sparkle 
Of course everyone has a wide range of expressions (okay, except 5s  Kidding... 5s tend to have _curious_ eyes. With glasses.) but there are definitely trends.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> This is how the type 7 mind is often described. Some call it the "Monkey Mind". There's no doubt in my mind anymore, you're totally a 7 ^_^
> I'd say 7w6, sx based on what I've seen.
> 
> As for the eyes, 7s often have a kind of bright, optimistic, _alert_ eyes. And when they're excited about something, you see them sparkle. <3 the sparkle
> Of course everyone has a wide range of expressions (okay, except 5s  Kidding... 5s tend to have _curious_ eyes. With glasses.) but there are definitely trends.


Lmao, well, I have appreciated this strange journey. Thank you. Since typing myself I haven't had to go through this intense of a reconsideration process.

In any case, I'm pretty sure still I'm a Four. And I think that the "Seven" traits people are seeing can be largely explained by being SP-dominant.



> Interestingly, this subtype can also look like a Type Seven, which in some ways is the opposite of Type Four, because some Self-Preservation Fours express a need to be light. With all the enduring and efforting these Fours do, they may at times display the high energy characteristics of Sevens, and they may also have a need for fun and playfulness as an escape from having to tough things out all the time. This may account for the fact that there are some Fours who do not seem as melancholy as others- Fours that appear more “sunny” and lighthearted. However, these Fours can be distinguished from Sevens in their greater access to their emotions.


Link to thread is here: 


Self-Preservationl Four description (according to Beatrice Chestnut).




> Self-Preservation Fours do not communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame, or envy, though they may feel all these things and they have the same depth and capacity for feeling as the other Fours. They learn to swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue for them, and they hope their self-sacrifices will be recognized and appreciated, though they don't talk about them very much.





> As Naranjo explains, the other two Four subtypes are too sensitive to frustration. They either suffer too much or they make you suffer too much (as a compensation for their suffering). The Self-Preservation subtype is the countertype Four because they go to the other extreme, developing a high capacity to internalize and bear frustration. They make a virtue of resistance to frustration.


etc etc. 

Have more to say but do not have the time at the moment. What do you think of this, though?


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> Have more to say but do not have the time at the moment. What do you think of this, though?


I expected you to keep the option open, 7-style, and you did :>
Forgive my teasing. But you just don't seem like an SP type OR a 4 to me, and everything you've said in this thread can be explained with a 7 core.
In some ways typing people on this forum is much easier than in real life but in the end it's a fact that I barely know you and may be wrong. Whatever the case, I hope you can make something of it!


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> I expected you to keep the option open, 7-style, and you did :>
> Forgive my teasing. But you just don't seem like an SP type OR a 4 to me, and everything you've said in this thread can be explained with a 7 core.
> In some ways typing people on this forum is much easier than in real life but in the end it's a fact that I barely know you and may be wrong. Whatever the case, I hope you can make something of it!


I think it's important to be wary of too much compartmentalizing or stereotyping with labels, ultimately. Like, every single thing a Seven does is not explained by being a Seven, and lots of types might keep it open. If we're being honest, I didn't want to, but I mean... I appreciate your efforts and, if there is some way that someone might explain how I'm not everything that the SP-4 thing describes, I'd be curious to hear it.

It's feels pretty funny to be considered a Core Seven, heheh. I am so... different from Sevens. I dated one and everyone remarked how it would never work because we were "opposite personalities". That's not why it didn't work, but. I dated another one and people remarked how well we "complemented" and "balanced" each other out. My Seven friends, are hilarious and fun but super draining to me. Sevens I am in contact with often but don't know very well, I often feel very "" towards.

But anyway. Yeah. The internet is a weird place and it CAN make it easier to read someone's thoughts more directly, but there's a lot that is missed as well, plus since it's so filtered we are all prone to possibly over-or-under explaining ourselves, or minimizing or maximizing certain things, that can't be compared against real life evidence or perspectives, I guess.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> I think it's important to be wary of too much compartmentalizing or stereotyping with labels, ultimately. Like, every single thing a Seven does is not explained by being a Seven, and lots of types might keep it open. If we're being honest, I didn't want to, but I mean... I appreciate your efforts and, if there is some way that someone might explain how I'm not everything that the SP-4 thing describes, I'd be curious to hear it.


Well, there's one thing... you mentioned you were in therapy. This is already very un-4-like but an SP type 4 I imagine would rather die than ever going into therapy. This type does pride itself in carrying their own pain by themselves.
Maybe I'll think of more later, but for now, sleep


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

aurly said:


> Well, there's one thing... you mentioned you were in therapy. This is already very un-4-like but an SP type 4 I imagine would rather die than ever going into therapy. This type does pride itself in carrying their own pain by themselves.
> Maybe I'll think of more later, but for now, sleep


whenever you get up, what makes you think therapy is un-4-like? a few of my friends are psychologists who study the Enneagram and they say that 4s, 5s and 6s are their most common clients by a landslide. I would think it would be more un-3-ish or un-8-ish.
Edit: ah, I misread. yes, Sp 4 is definitely the least likely of the 4s to go to therapy


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> whenever you get up, what makes you think therapy is un-4-like? a few of my friends are psychologists who study the Enneagram and they say that 4s, 5s and 6s are their most common clients by a landslide. I would think it would be more un-3-ish or un-8-ish.
> Edit: ah, I misread. yes, Sp 4 is definitely the least likely of the 4s to go to therapy


But SP 4 is still a Four. 

Therapy is tricky. I was forced into it by my mom when I was a teenager and hated it, but ultimately it had some benefit. I almost died from my eating disorder so getting help saved my life. So now, as an adult:

I still spent many years "not going to therapy" and feeling like I could just do it all on my own. But I stopped functioning again. Would I have rather died? Yeah kinda, and I considered it, but I want to know that I tried everything I could, to get better, before ending it all... because I'm fucking strong (not that suicide makes someone weak, in my opinion, but that's another story).
*
I'm a Psychology major, I work in the field of mental health services, and I understand the importance of getting help when you need it.* I do have some shame over it, but I recognize that it's irrational. I also hate therapy, lmao. It's VERY hard for me to find a therapist I connect with, usually I sit there feeling like "this is stupid, I already know this". But it happens. In any case, I'd be a fool if I didn't seek help, knowing everything I know. I'd actually be weaker if I didn't, though it took awhile to admit that to myself.

I'm fascinated by the science behind biochemistry of the brain, and stuff like DBT (as opposed to psychotherapy, or talk therapy), can help to actually change networks and pathways and chemistry in your brain over time. If I can get out of these weak and obsessive ways of thinking, and out of this dysfunctional way of living, I'll consider myself even stronger for it. I'm actually considering just making my own DBT "program" and doing it on my own (like getting books, creating a routine (eek), customizing it). When I was younger, I put together a "program" based on therapeutic techniques and information in books I read, and my own weird ideas, when I relapsed in my eating disorder. I pulled myself out of it that way, and I think I might be able to do it again for my depression/other issues. We shall see.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Quernus said:


> But SP 4 is still a Four.
> 
> Therapy is tricky. I was forced into it by my mom when I was a teenager and hated it, but ultimately it had some benefit. I almost died from my eating disorder so getting help saved my life. So now, as an adult:
> 
> ...


nothing to disagree about here. I said "least likely", that doesn't mean an Sp 4 getting therapy would necessarily be outlying or even rare.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> whenever you get up, what makes you think therapy is un-4-like? a few of my friends are psychologists who study the Enneagram and they say that 4s, 5s and 6s are their most common clients by a landslide. I would think it would be more un-3-ish or un-8-ish.
> Edit: ah, I misread. yes, Sp 4 is definitely the least likely of the 4s to go to therapy


Hm, interesting, I figured 4s, especially SP 4s would avoid therapy like the plague. Then again, this might be a cultural thing - stigma. Plus, @Quernus was forced to so... I got nothing else at the moment! But I must say this has been interesting so far. The human mind is endlessly fascinating!


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

aurly said:


> It's not the first instinctual reflex, though, but learned behaviour. But if it has gone on long enough it can be quite hard to tell the difference, if not impossible.
> I tend to sleep a lot when hurt, numbing just never seems to work for me. I wonder about 5-wing detaching. It feels more like... never attaching in the first place. It's extremely difficult for me to let go of feelings once they're there. Insights from 5s appreciated.


I knew a guy who is not likely a 4, who is a big fan of the local football team and it wasn't unusual that it was impossible for him to eat anything the day his team played. It was hard for him to cope with defeat, but fortunately there was usually a new game to anticipate. The problem wasn't letting go, much as it was his emotional investment. How much this club makes up for his identity, brings emotional fullfillment, compared to other things (or people). Ultimate fulfillment was to beat the rival(s), followed by beating a lesser-rival combined with the schadenfreude of the rivals losing. Aside from winning or losing, it's also something he feels part of, and which he can expect to always be there. Many go much further than him, and some will even stalk players or the board of directors after a series of defeats. Which you may say is pretty 'intense'. They would probably say, it's because they love the club more than anything else (and probably believe more than anyone else does) and that they'd do anything in their power to prevent their beloved club from going down. Anyway, I guess we might say that it's difficult to let go of feelings. 

If you don't identify that stronly with a football team, your disappointment may already have dissolved an hour after losing a game, and you wouldn't need to sleep a lot after a defeat. Which btw is a way of numbing...



Naranjo Type 9 said:


> This distractibility of attention is assisted, however, by the individual’s deliberate pursuit of distractions, as if driven by the desire not to experience or not to see. TV, newspapers, sewing, cross-word puzzles, and activity in general —in addition to sleep— serve the purpose of narcotization or “numbing out.”



By your own standards this probably would, but I don't think it would make you a 9 per se. 

Just like 'having difficulty in letting go of feelings', which may be characteristic to type 4, but also to a lot of angsty teenagers. 

I certainly find it a bit superficial to serve as a litmus test, to invalidate a typing. I don't think this 'instinctual reflex' is true for every single feeling 'that is there'. In case you were not aware of it, there are obviously things a 4 is not much emotionally invested in (e.g. something ordinary and mundane like football), and there are feelings -even envious- a 4 may take for what they are untill they dissolve. Feelings that are difficult to let go off, are the ones the self strongly identifies with and clings to, but that is regardless of type, and not because someone is a 4. (the main distinction would be identification with "inner emotional reality". Aside from that, although related, 4s do emotionally invest more, perhaps over-invest, as compared to the other withdrawn types 5 and 9, who "under-invest" by resignating, disengagement, and overadaptiveness, or detachment rather than compassionate non-attachment, where 4 would need to detach to find center to enable equanimity). 

http://changingminds.org/explanations/emotions/emotion_investment.htm

Change Job/Work for "Feeling feeling"


Emotional Investment said:


> 5 Signs You’re Way Too Emotionally Invested in Your Job
> 
> (..) We care so much about our work that it becomes ingrained in our identity and self-image.
> 
> ...


I don't think with regard to clinging/letting go, it even matters whether someone is aware "they're there", because feelings and emotions may already be felt and influence the ideation process before being acknowledged and tagged as fear or shame, anger, desire, doubt, sorrow, compassion, distrust, envy, pride, vanity, helplessness, vulnerable, etc. When the impuls causes fear or cognitive dissonance, ego defenses and coping strategies will try to prevent that "they're there". 

This may explain why many 4s say they don't relate to the passion of envy, in particular sp4, or an sx4 may confidently claim that shame isn't 'there'. And so far very few have acknowledged wishing the other didn't have what they desire. Which I don't think should be taken literally as a conscious wish. 

Sx4 "shamelessness" is counter-shame reactivity, which could manifest in "shamelessly" acting out in response to the shame impulse by throwing tantrums, spiteful hostility and (false) prideful "abandonment before being abandoned", competitive arrogance and self-victimization (=> the feeling that is "there", congruent with personal narrative of suffering and difficult to let go off, even though the 4 would actually be the one abandoning). 

Envy is also (in general) expressed as "indignation" (externalized), or as "suffering", which is more politically correct, and in line with -or shaping- personal narrative/ self concept. Expression of envy through suffering however can also be vindictive, for instance to start crying in self pity when someone else receives praise, has a "spoiling effect" on the object of gratification. If envy causes someone to reject reality, like finding it unbearable to hear friends talk about something you didn't take part of, or will not participate in, is (deepdown) wishing they didn't have what you desire, also in case of feeling self-loathing (retroflection of aggression against oneself). 

Perhaps with Feeling you were referring to the profound "emotional depth" that is put on a pedestal, and perhaps the "vibe" you miss in @Quernus, but I think so far she was able to explain the type and herself better than you do. Sorry in that case for making analogies with the petty (envious) feelings of football fans, "intense" hooligans and workaholics, but in terms of investment and emotional dependency, it actually ain't so much different from the type's emotional investment in the savior that is longed for.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

mimesis said:


> By your own standards this probably would, but I don't think it would make you a 9 per se.
> 
> Just like 'having difficulty in letting go of feelings', which may be characteristic to type 4, but also to a lot of angsty teenagers.


I did think I was a 9 for a while, and probably still would if not for some difficult times I went through. My teenage years are a bit behind me as well. If you think I'm mistyped however, feel free to point it out. I can only learn from it. But I should note that at this time I'm not really willing to be open about my past.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> whenever you get up, what makes you think therapy is un-4-like? a few of my friends are psychologists who study the Enneagram and they say that 4s, 5s and 6s are their most common clients by a landslide. I would think it would be more un-3-ish or un-8-ish.
> Edit: ah, I misread. yes, Sp 4 is definitely the least likely of the 4s to go to therapy


Oh, out of interest, how many of those _choose_ to go?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Which type would be least likely to feel any shame over seeing a therapist? I mean, I might feel uncomfortable with the idea of actually opening up to them (even though I like talking about myself) but just the idea of going to them doesn't seem humiliating to me.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> Oh, out of interest, how many of those _choose_ to go?


I mean it's really hard to say, especially since mental illness, or severely stressful periods, can alter a person's behaviour or thoughts or feelings so much. Typing is probably more (initially) difficult when someone is seeking therapy (but ultimately, it can probably be one of the most helpful things for typing, since you have to uncover motivations etc). I don't think therapy is un-fourish at all, for the record, plenty of Fours like to talk about themselves constantly. Go the the Four forum and you'll see  But seriously, self-reflection and exploration and whatnot is actually pretty Fourish sounding to me.

And as an adult, I go of my own accord (though infrequently at this point). The fact I was originally forced probably helps, since I was able to see eventually that it was beneficial to a degree... I might have been even more reluctant to go as an adult, otherwise. But I'm pretty sure I still would have, for various reasons.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> Go the the Four forum and you'll see  But seriously, self-reflection and exploration and whatnot is actually pretty Fourish sounding to me.


Haha, yes. I'm very surprised at how open they can be sometimes. I just couldn't see myself opening up to a therapist or anyone else for that matter, especially when unhealthy. Even anonymous on the internet is hard. Trust issues? Yeah I suppose...


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

mimesis said:


> and you wouldn't need to sleep a lot after a defeat. Which btw is a way of numbing...


I wanted to comment on this too. Mainly because I need to be honest with myself as well and stop doing it.
When someone hurts me, and I go to sleep, I don't do so to numb the pain. And although the stress does exhaust my body, the reason is different; I go to sleep to make myself unavailable. It's a form of revenge. I want them to try and reach me, and fail. I turn my phone off as well. I don't want to see that they _didn't_ try to reach me either.


... vicious witch it is


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if I actually am a core Six? Just one's who's been unhealthy as hell. And I'm still unsure of my heart fix (Three or Four...Two still isn't on the radar. No description there is relatable). I guess I wonder what traits I should analyze, what questions I should ask/answer to get it nailed down?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

aurly said:


> I wanted to comment on this too. Mainly because I need to be honest with myself as well and stop doing it.
> When someone hurts me, and I go to sleep, I don't do so to numb the pain. And although the stress does exhaust my body, the reason is different; I go to sleep to make myself unavailable. It's a form of revenge. I want them to try and reach me, and fail. I turn my phone off as well. I don't want to see that they _didn't_ try to reach me either.
> 
> 
> ... vicious witch it is


That's called *passive* aggressive, which is also a 9 characteristic. 
But again, better not isolate behavior to type.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

mimesis said:


> That's called *passive* aggressive, which is also a 9 characteristic.
> But again, better not isolate behavior to type.


This is mostly true, but like you say, no behaviour is exclusive to any type.
I feel there's a subtle difference, though. It's more vindictive, rather than just aggressive, and when I reach that point I feel the relationship can no longer be saved. All that's left is confirmation - and that's specifically why I do it - reactive behaviour, which is a common 4-6-8 characteristic. But that's not to say 9 won't do that.
And it seems contradictory when I say I don't want to see them not do it, and I don't, I want to actually see them make the effort (and fail). If they do make the effort, I can find it in my heart to forgive.
And I would not say this sort of behaviour is well thought out, lol

I hope nobody I know reads this ._.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm still here trying to figure out this crap


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Tritype. I know some don't believe in it, but to me it seems reasonable that we each have a dominant mental strategy in terms of each of the instinctive/gut, identity/heart, and analytic/head triads. 

Personally, I am a pretty clear, solid core 6, and feel like I lean reasonably 7 enough that I have always typed as 6w7. However, teasing out the nuances of what is defensive core 6 versus protective tritype 8, compliant core 6 versus self-submitting tritype 2 versus accommodating Social instinct, and so on, is proving challenging in my own self-analysis. My first assumption was that I am 649, but I seem just as 2 or 3 as 4, and my boyfriend (9w1) has voiced that I am pretty headstrong and willful, and not really at all conflict avoidant, for a gut 9. So it's a work in progress...


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Type 7 

- I'm a lot more serious than other type 7s. Yes, I goof off sometimes and let loose on the internet and when around friends, but generally, I'm actually a really serious person. 

-I'm not nearly as reckless and impulsive as the type 7 is given credit for. The leash I put on myself is wayyy tighter than the usual 7 description. I give myself little room for error. I still feel desire for things, but my self-control is truly impeccable. And let's face it, "Type 7 Perfectionist" doesn't really seem to resonate with any e7 description I've ever heard of unless we're discussing 7s when at unhealthy levels. Unhealthy 7 is far from an accurate description of who I am, especially at this point in time. I am more mentally, emotionally, and spiritually fit than ever. 

-I put emphasis on being super sensible, and I am very comfortable with and confident about my decision-making. I do not feel like an eternal child. I've felt like an adult my whole life. I'm very good about making choices that will benefit me as a person, as well as benefit others. When type 7 descriptions go into that eternal child shit, I get annoyed.

-I know this is more of a general head type thing, but still. I very rarely experience anxiety. This is because I stop it at the source and prevent it from being created. I am *very much* in tune with and aware of my mind and the thoughts it is generating. If any type of cognitive distortion enters my mind, I am very skilled at labeling it as such, seeing it for what it is, and fighting it with the truth. As a result, I honestly do not experience anxiety all that much. My mind is very fit and focused, not so much scattered. 

-I always thought I ran from pain and avoided it by doing other activities. After a long period of reflection, I realized that is not the case at all. In reality, I give myself something to do until I'm calm, and then I rehash the problem in my mind and either rationalize as to why it's not worth my energy or put my energy into resolving it. I've never run from it. I've always acknowledged it and faced it head on. This is a very healthy habit that does not seem to be an inherently type 7 "trait". 

-I don't typically fear missing out on things as most e7 descriptions depict. If I want something, I will find a way to get it. It's as simple as that. Letting fear overtake you means you're making a choice to hand over your mental and emotional power, and it's a choice I don't often make. 

-I am ridiculously good about setting boundaries with people and making my wants and needs known. Effectively communicating to others what I want, need, and "expect" is a forte. People sometimes take the boundary setting personally, when in reality, the boundary is there to ensure that my wants are needs are very clearly understood. This way, if a person steps over the boundary, I will know that it was deliberate. This angers me. I give everybody respect, and I do expect it back in return. I will not accept anything less. So yeah, when someone crosses a very clear boundary, I find it HIGHLY disrespectful, and there will be a price to pay.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

aurly said:


> This is mostly true, but like you say, no behaviour is exclusive to any type.
> I feel there's a subtle difference, though. It's more vindictive, rather than just aggressive, and when I reach that point I feel the relationship can no longer be saved. All that's left is confirmation - and that's specifically why I do it - reactive behaviour, which is a common 4-6-8 characteristic. But that's not to say 9 won't do that.
> And it seems contradictory when I say I don't want to see them not do it, and I don't, I want to actually see them make the effort (and fail). If they do make the effort, I can find it in my heart to forgive.
> And I would not say this sort of behaviour is well thought out, lol
> ...


Authentic expression of passive vindictiveness, like that?

I was more of a drama queen I guess. With a dash of pro-active guilt tripping, while packing my stuff. And then she'd -reactively- say, "if that's what you want, sure I won't stop you (like last time)", like you know... 'see if I care'. (or would that make the other reactive per se?) Maybe that's not what you really want, but what else can you do other than walk out that door to see if she really cared, right? And you think "This is it. It will be hard, but I will pull myself through..." The whole relationship passes before your eyes in a few seconds and you fight your tears. And just before you open the door you feel it's almost impossible to move your leg, like someone's clinging to it, and you look and it's her! And then of course you can find it in your heart to forgive her. Esp. being in a restaurant and all...that says something.

At the time we didn't have phones you could turn off and check if they called. Although she did have an answering machine. Then the person calling could be passive vindictive, just hanging up and call many times I guess. I remember one time it stopped because it was the end of the tape, which is the analogue equivalent of "out of memory". I can say with regard to volatility and considering the conditioning of the stress response, despite the genuine and heartfelt wish to start anew, not to mention the toxic in your blood that comes along with it, which in case of overexposure might lead to auto-immunity, that a relationship with both a talent for melodrama is inadvisable. :dry:


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> The more I think about it, the more I wonder if I actually am a core Six? Just one's who's been unhealthy as hell. And I'm still unsure of my heart fix (Three or Four...Two still isn't on the radar. No description there is relatable). I guess I wonder what traits I should analyze, what questions I should ask/answer to get it nailed down?


Well, what got you thinking you might be a Six? Six actually integrates to Nine, so if you were an unhealthy Six... you might look more like a Three.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Quernus said:


> But SP 4 is still a Four.
> 
> Therapy is tricky. I was forced into it by my mom when I was a teenager and hated it, but ultimately it had some benefit. I almost died from my eating disorder so getting help saved my life. So now, as an adult:
> 
> ...


I had more therapists than actual friends back in undergrad. Lately though I shun the idea of therapy. Unless one is seriously debilitated (e.g. schizophrenia or mania), it's best to just ride the emotional valley. Suffering builds character. Balls/ovaries of steel and fire.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

The Scorched Earth said:


> I had more therapists than actual friends back in undergrad. Lately though I shun the idea of therapy. Unless one is seriously debilitated (e.g. schizophrenia or mania), it's best to just ride the emotional valley. Suffering builds character. Balls/ovaries of steel and fire.


Well... that seems like a pretty arbitrary line to draw, in terms of what's considered debilitated. There's a huge range of psychosis and neurosis out there, even people with the same diagnosis can behave very differently, and circumstances also vary. In any case, therapy done correctly does not prevent you from "riding out" or experiencing the emotions. In fact sometimes it makes you delve far more deeply into the pain than you would without it, suffering more greatly, while learning structures and techniques to actually make use of what you discover.

And life is pain. If you're prone to emotional storms then life will always have plenty. I'm really strong and largely it's because of my hardships -- but rather -- overcoming them as much as I have. The process of recovery is far more hellish than the actual sickness, for most people. That's the case for me, anyway.


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

100% sure on 3w4. Tritype 3w4-8w9-5/6( not sure, confused with head types, as little relation to all 3).

I am not sure on my instinctual variants however( I just ignored them, focused on enneagram type).


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Speaking of therapy earlier, my first therapy, I was coerced into it and it was used as method of control over me, I think my motivations for initially avoiding it were pretty 6ish - the way it was introduced to me out of the blue and then being told - 'your therapist can read you like a book' - another way of breaking my walls down. I spent a lot of time with that particular therapist bitching about my step-parents and the things they were saying to me about therapy. And I became quickly rebellious towards them as a way of gaining an inner sense of control over my own thoughts at the least. 

Later on though, I did see some other therapists, some good, some terrible which lasted no longer than 1 session each.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> Well, what got you thinking you might be a Six? Six actually integrates to Nine, so if you were an unhealthy Six... you might look more like a Three.


Some believe, and is my personal experience as well, that disintegration can go both ways. I've certainly had my low-1 and low-2 moments ;p


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> Some believe, and is my personal experience as well, that disintegration can go both ways. I've certainly had my low-1 and low-2 moments ;p


Well, me too, although inb4 "the One part is because you're a seven".

now you'll get a real kick out of this, but I've only skimmed a lot of the posts here --- you're a four?

just out of curiosity, do you think you have this "four vibe" of which you speak?


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> Well, me too, although inb4 "the One part is because you're a seven".
> 
> now you'll get a real kick out of this, but I've only skimmed a lot of the posts here --- you're a four?
> 
> just out of curiosity, do you think you have this "four vibe" of which you speak?


 "inb4" hohoho.

Ahem. Don't mind me.

I never thought I had this 4 vibe. But several people have accused me of it, so I guess I do. But I don't see it myself. The view from the inside is apparently quite different from the outside view. Makes sense they call the personality type a "lens".


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

aurly said:


> "inb4" hohoho.
> 
> Ahem. Don't mind me.
> 
> I never thought I had this 4 vibe. But several people have accused me of it, so I guess I do. But I don't see it myself. The view from the inside is apparently quite different from the outside view. Makes sense they call the personality type a "lens".


People online or irl? I can see how you'd be a four based on things you've claimed or described here, though I could also dissect said things and see how they might also apply to other types.

The "vibe" I get from you is either 6 or 9, or maybe 1, I think, but, going by vibe alone makes no sense. Hmmmm. You are not the only one with doubts to my being a four, apparently, despite that I've reascertained pretty confidently that I am a core Four. (Though less sure than ever about my head fix, thanks to this thread, which isn't a bad thing). I almost wonder if ... we might lack recognition of certain fourishness in one another due to some sort of cognitive dissonance with regards to how we see fourness in ourselves.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I am still undecided between 6w7 and 9. If 9, the wing is undecided. I can see both, despite relating too much to frustration, but I figured they don't matter as much as type (the 6w7 combo matters to me though, as I think the wing is strong). Instinctually, I have self-typed as sp/so for a very long time. I self-typed as sp/sx for some time in the beginning, but I was wrong because I think I am sx-last; lacking sx seems to be a source of shame, of a shortcoming, and I also realized I am so-strong. So the question here is if so/sp or sp/so. About tritype, I find it interesting, but I am not as fond of it as I was, but I still would like to have it clearly defined (as I usually do with things about me). I have self-typed as 469, 146, 369. Please take a stab at it. And, maybe offtopic, I am also confused about cognitive type. I self-typed as TiNe for very long, and then Ti-dominant, but lately I've started to consider Fi-dom. I'm also considering sensor and I've considered extroversion as well because I feel like being "introverted" is more of a thing I was forced by life to be to protect myself and I also hate the idea of not being focused on myself and my experience, even if I am not conviced of it and I cannot say it without hesitation.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Quernus said:


> People online or irl? I can see how you'd be a four based on things you've claimed or described here, though I could also dissect said things and see how they might also apply to other types.
> 
> The "vibe" I get from you is either 6 or 9, or maybe 1, I think, but, going by vibe alone makes no sense. Hmmmm. You are not the only one with doubts to my being a four, apparently, despite that I've reascertained pretty confidently that I am a core Four. (Though less sure than ever about my head fix, thanks to this thread, which isn't a bad thing). I almost wonder if ... we might lack recognition of certain fourishness in one another due to some sort of cognitive dissonance with regards to how we see fourness in ourselves.


Online only. I don't know anyone IRL who knows about the enneagram, or at least as far as I am aware, so nobody has typed me IRL yet.
I do see "4ness" in some others, some are obvious, some not so much, and to be honest I haven't the slightest idea _how_ see it but I know that I do. Being human, I can be wrong sometimes but I've learned that my feelings can usually be trusted.
Thanks for sharing how I "vibe" also. Seems I wasn't that far off with my initial (mis-)type


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Quernus
Do I vibe as a 4 to you?


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Animal said:


> @_Quernus_
> Do I vibe as a 4 to you?




Sure. I'm not even entirely certain that everyone is talking about the same thing when we discuss this "vibe" thing because it's a pretty nonsensical way to type anyone (at least by relying on it primarily). 

But, I've probably been influenced by your own self typing therefore I see you with preconceived notions, whereas aurly doesn't list a type, soo. But I have been around long enough to know your story and style pretty well, back when my username was spectral sparrow you typed as an Eight. Four makes sense. I mostly get a "passionate, bright, ENFP" vibe from you . It's more your words and claimed motivations that would lead me to expect you to be a Four.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Do I ignore and forget shame because my heart fix is last, or because I actually have a 3 fix? Hmm.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Silveresque said:


> Do I ignore and forget shame because my heart fix is last, or because I actually have a 3 fix? Hmm.


My two cents says neither. 

I think shame in particular is an emotion that many people try to ignore, forget, and deny regardless of type. In my personal opinion, it's harder to confront than both anger and anxiety put together... not saying this is everyone else's experience. 

As a side note...


* *




I have noticed that between these three emotions, shame is the one that people least admit to feeling. Many people can be quick to own up to anger and anxiety. It's hard not to when you consider that anger and anxiety are often accompanied by physical tell-tale signs that are really difficult to ignore. Not to mention, anger and anxiety are generally written all over a person's face which means a third party perspective can definitely come into play. Concerned friends and family members can point them out to you in a heartbeat even if you're ignoring them. Shame can be a little harder to peg though, and an outsider will usually have a much more difficult time identifying shame in others than they would identifying anger and anxiety. This is because shame and guilt are often mistaken for depression and sadness. I used to tell people that I was pretty shameless, and I honestly believed it. I later learned that being unafraid to express myself and my opinions does not make me shameless. People can feel shame for MANY other reasons.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Silveresque said:


> Do I ignore and forget shame because my heart fix is last, or because I actually have a 3 fix? Hmm.


So, what I think you're referring to is the way in which Threes are known to minimize/deny their mistakes and barge forward anyway.

But, any image type might be likely to ignore, forget, or rationalize shame, in their own ways. In fact, we might be _more _likely to do so. It's an emotion with great control over us; perhaps because being so sensitive to it, we are also so desperate to get away from it, thus our lives can begin to subconsciously revolve around coping mechanisms that allow us to avoid confronting it (for awhile). 

So like. I guess I'd ask more what you mean by "ignoring and forgetting" your shame? And like someone else said, it's not something that I think many types really own up to anyway, although some might be more likely to admit mistakes, some might be more likely to accept imperfection, some might be more likely to settle for something less than what they think they deserve, etc. There are different forms...


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Quernus said:


> So like. I guess I'd ask more what you mean by "ignoring and forgetting" your shame? And like someone else said, it's not something that I think many types really own up to anyway, although some might be more likely to admit mistakes, some might be more likely to accept imperfection, some might be more likely to settle for something less than what they think they deserve, etc. There are different forms...


Admitting the mistake but trying to just ignore and forget about it and hope to not make any more. But I guess that's pretty normal, maybe how most people are. 

Still, I don't really identify with comparing myself to others and feeling defective. I almost never do anything like that. My identity is that I'm different but I don't feel bad about it or wish to be any other way. I like being different and want to know everything there is to know about me. Which I guess could still fit with a 4 fix but it seems kind of shallow, so I don't know.


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## galactic collision (May 1, 2014)

Ace Face said:


> Type 7
> 
> - I'm a lot more serious than other type 7s. Yes, I goof off sometimes and let loose on the internet and when around friends, but generally, I'm actually a really serious person.
> 
> ...


you sound like me, a 7

which is not to say that you're a 7, but...

don't let stereotypes overrule reason

that's why I mistyped for so long


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

just for the spark said:


> you sound like me, a 7
> 
> which is not to say that you're a 7, but...
> 
> ...


Lol, thanks, dear. I've been playing the personality theory game for quite some time now. I'm no stranger to these silly little dances we do with what type we are, that's for sure. As much as I don't like the stereotypes, I've come to accept them as a part of this flawed system we all love so much. I don't obsess over it like I used to.


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## galactic collision (May 1, 2014)

Ace Face said:


> Lol, thanks, dear. I've been playing the personality theory game for quite some time now. I'm no stranger to these silly little dances we do with what type we are, that's for sure. As much as I don't like the stereotypes, I've come to accept them as a part of this flawed system we all love so much. I don't obsess over it like I used to.


Sorry if my response came out condescending! I was trying to keep a chill vibe going while the little type 7 brain people inside my head were all chanting "not all 7s! not all 7s!" 

This is why I should not post right before bed when I'm halfway to sleep. My posts stop making sense


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

just for the spark said:


> Sorry if my response came out condescending! I was trying to keep a chill vibe going while the little type 7 brain people inside my head were all chanting "not all 7s! not all 7s!"
> 
> This is why I should not post right before bed when I'm halfway to sleep. My posts stop making sense


Your post wasn't the least bit condescending. Maybe your sleepy mind is playing tricks on you, lol ^.^


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## galactic collision (May 1, 2014)

Ace Face said:


> Your post wasn't the least bit condescending. Maybe your sleepy mind is playing tricks on you, lol ^.^


Probably! 😁


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Ace Face said:


> I think shame in particular is an emotion that many people try to ignore, forget, and deny regardless of type. In my personal opinion, it's harder to confront than both anger and anxiety put together... not saying this is everyone else's experience.


I don't feel it's difficult to recognize (what I think of as) feelings of shame in myself, yet I seem to have less shame than most in a way. Funny how that works.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Quernus said:


> Well, what got you thinking you might be a Six? Six actually integrates to Nine, so if you were an unhealthy Six... you might look more like a Three.


Yeah, the connection lines are part of what make me doubt it.

Someone else suggested it, actually. Several someones, at different times. Apparently I'm insecure as hell, can get incredibly, self-defeatingly rigid in my thinking regarding these insecurities until they take over my thoughts, get more than a bit stressed about groups, belonging, and "standards", and generally worry about stuff a lot.

Not sure if I'm actually unhealthy Six or an outright disintegrated Nine.


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## Fire Away (Nov 29, 2013)

Stuck between Sx/so 1w2 and Sp/so 8w7. 


^Fuck it. I'll just flip a coin...


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

still not totally sold on 7
Vocaroo | Voice message


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## o0india0o (Mar 17, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> still not totally sold on 7
> Vocaroo | Voice message


"...sit in my lair…" "drinking tea…". (rofl)
I love that you just called your room, your "lair". :chuncky:

You still strike me as a 5w4.
I think your connection to Type 8, is through a stronger line of connection to Type 8 (I personally believe people tend to favor one arrow direction over the other, as oppose to the "traditional" view of one type for disintegration, and the other for integration).

I think a lot of your anger comes from Type 1 being in your tritype (as oppose to Type 8 - - I believe that's your connection point);; if you believe in tritype theory.

I also don't see you trying to mess with people enough, to amuse yourself. Not that all Type 7w8 do this;; but all the Type 7w8's I know tend to find dubious means of amusing themselves, and quelling their boredom (they're willing to take it farther than us 7w6's).

As for image-center - - I'm not sure. I think you admire the power-drive of Type 2's;; but I don't think it's in your tritype. I'm not sure if I'd want to give you a double dose of Type 4 though … 
But I'd honestly be more likely to say Type 4 or Type 3 - - but take that with a pinch of salt, because it's a little hard to say.
I don't know, maybe I would feel fine giving you Type 2;; that would be an awful lot of "power seeking" types in you - - though, this might also explain why a lot of people wanted to type you as a Type 8 in the past …

Idk. Just my 2 cents! :smile-new:


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

TopCatLSD said:


> Stuck between Sx/so 1w2 and Sp/so 8w7.
> 
> 
> ^Fuck it. I'll just flip a coin...


Well, those are two fairly different types.

@_Swordsman of Mana_
Can't help but wonder if you aren't doubting 7 for somewhat 7ish reasons.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

o0india0o said:


> "...sit in my lair…" "drinking tea…". (rofl)
> I love that you just called your room, your "lair". :chuncky:






> You still strike me as a 5w4.
> I think your connection to Type 8, is through a stronger line of connection to Type 8 (I personally believe people tend to favor one arrow direction over the other, as oppose to the "traditional" view of one type for disintegration, and the other for integration).


that's still on the table



> I think a lot of your anger comes from Type 1 being in your tritype (as oppose to Type 8 - - I believe that's your connection point);; if you believe in tritype theory.


agreed. the 8-ish anger I feel is more survival/physical space based



> I also don't see you trying to mess with people enough, to amuse yourself. Not that all Type 7w8 do this;; but all the Type 7w8's I know tend to find dubious means of amusing themselves, and quelling their boredom (they're willing to take it farther than us 7w6's).


while there are definite reservations about self-typing as 7w8, this is not one of them. I spend 2/3 of my time here trying to piss off liberals and screw with people's misplaced sensitivities. ex:
http://personalitycafe.com/spam-world/101313-real-controversial-opinions-thread.html
http://personalitycafe.com/debate-f...really-encourage-women-feminine-helpless.html
http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/590050-people-who-need-gay-pride-weak.html
http://personalitycafe.com/critical-thinking-philosophy/568825-why-term-non-binary-bothers-me.html
http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/480770-prostitution-demeaning-men-not-women.html



> As for image-center - - I'm not sure. I think you admire the power-drive of Type 2's;; but I don't think it's in your tritype. I'm not sure if I'd want to give you a double dose of Type 4 though …
> But I'd honestly be more likely to say Type 4 or Type 3 - - but take that with a pinch of salt, because it's a little hard to say.
> I don't know, maybe I would feel fine giving you Type 2;; that would be an awful lot of "power seeking" types in you - - though, this might also explain why a lot of people wanted to type you as a Type 8 in the past …
> Idk. Just my 2 cents! :smile-new:


it's definitely not 3. I'm too retarded about how I come across and my self worth doesn't come enough from achievement.

anyway, I made another response for you :tongue:
Vocaroo | Voice message


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

i feel like as people go through different things in their lives, they unravel a bit more of themselves. this can either change who they are, or, it can just change who they think they are. 
it kind of makes me look at types differently. i mean, if you type at something now, is that what you actually _are_--as in you have a current running through you that will always be there, which is marked by type [X]--or is the type itself just a mar within yourself, like a schism running through an injured muscle, and after healing you are no longer a type necessarily, but someone who recovered _from_ a type? 

to me, life is too situationally based to not fluctuate in response to... life.
the only thing i notice about people with obvious enneagram traits--especially those who are much older--is that after a certain point they stopped responding (or "creatively attacking back at life", and basically got boxed into who they are now, regardless of how "tough" or "alluring" or "intelligent" their type seems to be. really more like a failing at a certain point, because the "choice" to be molded by one's surroundings--for better or worse, being "stronger" or "weaker"--still falls as a rationalization on the part of typee). 

there are always reasons for why we are the way we are, but what are the reasons for we aren't the way we are not? i don't think anyone is really a "type" to begin with. i wonder if we put a person into a scenario in which their methods failed utterly, would they change to something outside of all their lines of "integ/disintegration"--barring they didn't mentally collapse into something broken during the process? 


i still don't know what type i am, not really. i don't feel like any accurately describe me. 
for 6: i am fearful, technically, but i don't know if "fearful" really describes the feeling all that well. more like i kind of chain myself up and temper my responses to life because i know how easily things can be taken from a person based on their own actions. i think my "fear" is more realistic, cause-and-effect-based, like, "no, i cannot headbutt my boss, no matter how much of an asshole he happens to be, even if he did just punch a wall, because then i won't be able to afford my bills, let alone a lawyer that is as good as the one he'll get for his broken face". 
(the dude is really trying my patience, but after i get a fallback option i'm just going to have fun with the situation, and let it be a more... "freeing experience". jesus, i don't think anyone's given it to him in a while, and there's so much wrong the situation at hand, really)

i just look at reality. if it makes sense, if it's probable, if it's not clouded, then you can make a decision. if it is all of those cloudy-things, then you have to wade through it and figure out what's real and what's not: what's reality, and what is another person's perception or another person's take on "what is" (which is only ever as good as the person trying to shovel it). 
reality is the turning-point for everything--which is how i see it--but it seems like there's this tendency for certain types to try and rely on an absence of confidence, or a ridiculous surplus of confidence... to the point that they use that and themselves as the turning-point for reality (which i don't understand). 
it's like walking around blindfolded and getting lucky if you don't break an ankle, which the breaking would lead to that lack of confidence while continuing to teeter luckily around unforeseen potholes would only increase the opposite delusion (being vague here: the delusion that one has an impact on their surroundings that are greater than the impact their surroundings have on them; even in situations where a person feels empowered, that sense of empowerment hinges on a set of continued responses to encourage their current mindset, and if those responses are lacking in either substance or regularity, it _will_ have an impact on them that runs counter to the previous impact that led to their current state of mind [wordy, sorry]).


i was recently told by an employer and one of his many underlings that i lack of confidence. which was mind-blowing to me, because i've always reserved the emergence of "confidence" in my personality because it seems like such a useless... _emotion_, if can be called one? 
also 'mind-blowing' because it won't even be a lack of confidence per say, but a knowledge that if i act how i truly am in that setting, we'll have a lot of upset guests and i (again) won't have a job anymore. so instead, i look at what is necessary within the situation and attempt to give that, with whatever is most practically at hand. if i know someone's wrong but that my argument will fall on deaf ears, it's not a lack of confidence that i go quiet and steely/cold and nod as if i agree, but again, through a knowledge that it doesn't matter because those i'm up against not only hold power over myself and my financial well-being, but also that in tandem with the aforementioned unfortunate aspects of our relationship, they are operating under false pretenses for what's acceptable/reasonable/realistic... and that there's, again, no point in even trying to show this, because they receive too much positive backing from the throngs of people who benefit off of that perspective. 

confidence--i hope this is enneagram-related--is overrated. it's meaningless. you don't accomplish things through it, and you don't fail because of a lack of it (not within my mind, that is). 
there _is_ reality and cause-and-effect, there _is_ what is necessary and then what allows for the necessary to come about--past that, it's all just an effort of will and how energy one is willing to pour into an act to see it succeed (even if some of those movements are to walk away and start elsewhere, as a current setting may not be suitable, due to differing perspectives of those that hold power and oneself)... 

life + ennea-musings, if nothing else.


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## o0india0o (Mar 17, 2015)

(Sorry, forgot tag) @Swordsman of Mana

(lol) "Why do you want this job?"
Answer: "Because I want f*cking money". layful:

I've made that joke with my friends. It's like, why do we have to play these games*?*
I too, also find group social events shallow. 
I could relate to a lot of your SO-dom last sentiments …

Your discussion about resources reminded me a lot about Type 5's (and of course SP-dom needs + instincts) - - but since I don't have many Type 8 friends, I haven't done much research on Type 8's (so I thought I'd back-peddle, and check to see whether that was a Type 8 thing). I'm sure you've read this misidentifications blurb a thousand times, but:



> _*"*These two types are not often mistyped, but share similar attitudes. Eights and Fives both see themselves as outsiders and both feel rejected easily. Both are highly independent, and willing to go to battle with anyone who threatens their independence. Both believe in direct communication, can be aggressive, and tend to protect their vulnerability.
> 
> Eights sometimes see themselves as Fives because they go to Five in stress, and therefore recall times when they have withdrawn from others to strategize and think about their future courses of action. *Nonetheless, Eights more often deal with problems head on, and can be highly assertive in going after what they want. Fives, by contrast, tend to retreat from others and to cut off from many of their needs in order to avoid risking dependencies.*
> 
> *Eights are highly instinctual and very related to their bodies*: they are people of practical action, pragmatism, and sensuality, as a result. Fives tend to stay in their heads more, and often have an ambivalent relationship with their bodies. Staying grounded and practical can be a problem for Fives–it is almost never one for Eights. Compare James Joyce (a Five) with Ernest Hemingway (an Eight).*"*_


You discuss a lot about "withdrawing", and not necessarily boldly dealing with problems "head on". Additionally, (and I mean this in the most innocent and considerate way possible), I don't really see you as a man of action (like a Type 8, or a 7w8 might be). You push against society, and can be aggressive like a Type 8 - - but your focus seems to be in a much less "grounded" or "practical" arena. The reasons for the push against people is very different than a Type 8 might. I also don't see you (or imagine you layful: ) as someone "highly related" to your body. I think you're sensual, but not grounded in your body in the same way a Type 8 might be.

Now, obviously, Type 8 primary was not the question, but I think it's interesting/important to consider that many of the "8-wing" aspects you are considering, I think can be better characterized by similarities Type 8's and Type 5's share, as well as a line of connection to Type 8.

"I want to talk to friends and intellectually babble …" <---Not that this cannot be Type 7, but a lot of who you are reminds me much more of Type 5. I don't get much of a wiff of Type 7 smell off of you. :friendly_wink:
You also have a large focus on resources and resource scarcity, as a side note.

Imo. Even Type 7w8 are much more playful and bouncy. I really can see you as a leopard (I think that's a good analogy); I can feel that bit of lazy, lay-about in the sun and eat my animal carcass vibe from you, even off the internets. (lol) Which seems much more Type 5 than Type 7 to me, personally.

Being afraid of real intimacy is interesting … That honestly reminds me of Type 3 (because I have a type 3 friend who this is a major issue for - - but I guess intimacy issues could easily be a problem for Type 5's, or any type for that matter). But it's an interesting bit of information to marinate on … You also started to apologize and get flustered when you couldn't explain your intimacy issues, which was interesting, and a very different side of you than we normally see. The fact that you don't want to think you need people is also intriguing. It references Type 5 again (or a connection to Type 8), wanting to be independent. But it again reminds me of Type 3, but also Type 2. 

So, I do think a double dose of Type 4 would be too much for you, and I redact a Type 3 heart-center suggestion (you have convinced me of that), however - - I would suggest a 3-wing for your Type 2 typing. I cannot explain it (without dwelling on it further) - - but, I think you're more of an attention whore than you think you are. :witless:

Type 2 issues also seem to really hit you at the core - - not sure I believe in that sort of thing when it comes to the Enneagram (at least I don't have that kind of relationship to it), but I don't really see you get emotional like that with Type 5 or Type 7 for that matter.

_Ah ha ha ha_*!* We are very different when it comes to our leaving the house routines. :rolling:
I tend to not even comb my fur (fur being hair - - just being silly). 

Last, (I made it through all 20 minutes - - just for you*!* :friendly_wink:
I wanted to address your beef with me saying you don't "mess with people" enough. 
I guess I should explain (& no, I have not made it to your links yet - - I will report back if and when I do). 
I will say that, I know plenty of Type 5's that mess with people (in a similar yet different manner than Type 7w8). I have noticed that Type 5's seem to be much more antagonistic in an intellectual way, as oppose to a playful/bouncy manner. Both types are a bit aggressive when they do it, but there is a contextual flavoring that is different between the two, that I'm having trouble articulating. I don't know, but your razzing just reminds me more of Type 5's than it does Type 7w8's. Your reason for "trolling" others, also seems different than I would reason a Type 7w8's would be - - I feel the behavior comes from different places.

Anyways, I feel Type 5w4 or Type 2w3 *strongly* off of you. The heart-center took a double glance, but you just had to open up more for me to see those aspects. :smile-new:
I don't really get Type 7 for you … but that's just me.

Final answer (for now): 5w4 2w3 1w?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> still not totally sold on 7
> Vocaroo | Voice message


In listening to your voice message you immediately struck me as an intellectual 9w1. You don't sound like a 7 nor a 5. The intellectual 9w1 can seem like a 7 and 5 in some ways due to the active thinking center but doesn't quite fit those types. The 1-wing can also pick up an influence from both the 4 and 7.

There can be a certain cadence in the way 9w1 speaks that indicates the underlying thinking process at work (both 5 and 7 often have a different cadence indicative of a different thinking process). Here's an example of Sam as 9w1 in the video below (start at 4:49 to hear him). The other two women in the video are 9w8 which can be quite different from the 9w1. Most authors tend to emphasize the characteristics of 9w8 for type 9 which may not apply to the intellectual 9w1.


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## Fire Away (Nov 29, 2013)

Distortions said:


> Well, those are two fairly different types.


Are they really that different though?

Maybe the instinctual stackings are wrong, but from what I've seen on the forums is that its easier to mix up 1's and 8's than it is cp6's and 8's.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

TopCatLSD said:


> Are they really that different though?
> 
> Maybe the instinctual stackings are wrong, but from what I've seen on the forums is that its easier to mix up 1's and 8's than it is cp6's and 8's.


Well, they're both gut types, and as such have some similarities indeed, but I feel like Resentment and Lust is pretty different.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@o0india0o
the reserves about intimacy are largely the result of experience. I was just as cuddly as any other young Sx dom NF before I experienced them (before I was betrayed on several occasions and seduction became a game of "I need to get them to be vulnerable first before I can _really_ surrender").
@enneathusiast
my energy can be very gut center when I want it to be, but cadence aside, how did all the contempt, overt power seeking, playful aggression and survivalist thought patterns in my post come off as a 9?


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Waiting for life to begin...feelings of loss...wanting everything to seem natural or real even if it's an artificial image...wanting to succeed or be someone in spite of flaws...

Holy crap, @_Silveresque_...maybe you're right and I am an image core. Except I stumbled on something about _Sixes_ looking like image types at times (especially Fours), but it's offset by a visible "nervousness". Not sure if that's true of me. And I'm still having a hard time buying into core Three. Again, I'm lazy as hell: I'm more the sort to build up crazy-ambitious goals, talk about them online...and then do nothing. Just keep the fantasy and be satisfied enough with that.


I'm posting this here so anyone else who can give input about types can do so.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_enneathusiast_
> my energy can be very gut center when I want it to be, but cadence aside, how did all the contempt, overt power seeking, playful aggression and survivalist thought patterns in my post come off as a 9?


I don't see people as a single type but a pattern of types. Irritation, playfulness, aggression fit in with the 9w1 and connections to 3 and 7 (seen in the inner lines). Overall there seems to be a reasoning that comes from the head center that seems more 5-like than 7-like but isn't quite 5-like. The 9w1 thinking can seem like 5w6 but there's some differences. One of which is that 9w1 is generally good at coming up with an understanding by pulling in opinions/references from multiple sources but the 5w6 tends to want to analyze the raw data himself and come to his own determination being suspect of the method others have used to make their determination. I've noticed this difference between us when I've tried to get you to look at the actual experience of people of a given type rather than relying on the opinions of authors. I didn't notice any survivalist thought patterns but perhaps that has to do with SP. 

Bottom line is that I see gaps in the popularized descriptions of the Enneagram types and the intellectual 9w1 is one of the bigger gaps. I'm actually hesitant in pointing you in that direction because much of the type 9 literature is biased toward 9w8 and may just mislead you anyway (the descriptions tend to emphasize conflict-avoidance and merging).


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

enneathusiast said:


> I've noticed this difference between us when I've tried to get you to look at the actual experience of people of a given type rather than relying on the opinions of authors.


I think this can also be related to MBTI type. I mean, you're Ti-Si or something, so it makes sense you would value the subjective experiences of people, over the "facts" stated by authors. 



> I'm actually hesitant in pointing you in that direction because much of the type 9 literature is biased toward 9w8 and may just mislead you anyway (the descriptions tend to emphasize conflict-avoidance and merging).


So 9w8 is more conflict-avoidant and merging-prone than 9w1? Why would that be?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

TopCatLSD said:


> Are they really that different though?
> Maybe the instinctual stackings are wrong, but from what I've seen on the forums is that its easier to mix up 1's and 8's than it is cp6's and 8's.


indeed, the anxiety of cp6 usually reveals itself rather quickly, as does extremely high-strung energy (gut types are slower, speak with more natural authority and come off more calm). a few more mature cp6s can hide their anxiety more expertly, but this is the exception rather than the rule


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Distortions said:


> I think this can also be related to MBTI type. I mean, you're Ti-Si or something, so it makes sense you would value the subjective experiences of people, over the "facts" stated by authors.


I know it seems to be popular on this forum but for me explaining the Enneagram using MBTI doesn't help explain the Enneagram. Maybe it's useful for other people though.



Distortions said:


> So 9w8 is more conflict-avoidant and merging-prone than 9w1? Why would that be?


Simply put, unlike types 1 and 8, the doing center is not active for type 9 - it's passive or reactive. Therefore, the active center will be feeling or thinking (one of the other two centers). An intellectual type 9w1 has an active thinking center. While the merging can come in the form of thinking and ideas (something that might fit better for the intellectual 9w1), it most often is described in terms of merging with others and the environment through the feeling center (often described as harmony, belonging, comfort, or even narcotization or numbing out).


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

enneathusiast said:


> I know it seems to be popular on this forum but for me explaining the Enneagram using MBTI doesn't help explain the Enneagram. Maybe it's useful for other people though.


It's not about "explaining the Enneagram using the MBTI" or being popular (I'm clarifying this because you like to mention of "people here blah blah" so perhaps you think I'm disagreeing with you just because you go against the popular view). It's another typology system that explains how people think, or process information, etc. And it makes sense to me that it could be part of the reason you prefer to focus on people's experiences. It's just another piece of data to consider, same with an author's opinion. 



> Simply put, unlike types 1 and 8, the doing center is not active for type 9 - it's passive or reactive. Therefore, the active center will be feeling or thinking (one of the other two centers). An intellectual type 9w1 has an active thinking center. While the merging can come in the form of thinking and ideas (something that might fit better for the intellectual 9w1), it most often is described in terms of merging with others and the environment through the feeling center (often described as harmony, belonging, comfort, or even narcotization or numbing out).


Well, you said that the literature is biased towards 9w8 and followed it up with how those descriptions emphasize conflict-avoidance and merging, which makes it sound that's something 9w8 is more prone to those things. Why would they be more conflict-avoidant, though? And why does the 9w1 have an active thinking center, or is that just a certain type of 9w1? I think you can have conflict over thinking and ideas too, so...


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Is it possible to be a social-dom who's really bad at socializing?


Yea. Instincts are more about focus. A Sp dom could feel they are bad at taking care of themselves and a Sx dom could feel they are lacking in the charm department.


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Welp, I think I give up a little on finding my core, but something else occurred to me. Is it possible to be a social-dom who's really bad at socializing? I know there's supposed to be only minimal connection, but can, say, a group-focus or interest in more global issues make up for it?


I was about to respond confidently with, "Yes, that's me!" 

But after reading all these variant threads I have zero idea what my stacking is. Maybe I'm not sx-last after all. Hell, maybe I'm sx-dom. I've noticed a trend of me agreeing excitedly with almost everything you write (except I really, really admire Nines), so I hope you figure it out soon. But, yeah, social-doms can be bad at socializing, and withdrawn types and head-types or IxFPs might be especially likely to relate to abstract, idealized social groups better than actual, living people. Real people and real groups are so _disappointing_.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Bathilda said:


> I was about to respond confidently with, "Yes, that's me!"
> 
> But after reading all these variant threads I have zero idea what my stacking is. Maybe I'm not sx-last after all. Hell, maybe I'm sx-dom. I've noticed a trend of me agreeing excitedly with almost everything you write (except I really, really admire Nines), so I hope you figure it out soon. But, yeah, social-doms can be bad at socializing, and withdrawn types and head-types or IxFPs might be especially likely to relate to abstract, idealized social groups better than actual, living people. Real people and real groups are so _disappointing_.



I like Nines...I just don't want to be one right now. 

What makes me wonder about being a social-dom is that, while I'm not good at socializing or networking or "touching base" with people, I can relate to having an interest in issues of the wider world, in being a little too fixated on issues of status or accomplishment, in being aware of hierarchy even if you don't like it much. And caring for self-pres issues come naturally to me, and at times form my more unhealthy coping mechanisms, so I'm not sure if that's my dominant variant. 

The one thing I do know is I have a very poor sx-instinct. Like, practically non-existent.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

sicksadworlds said:


> Too hard to tell if I'm a 9 or a 6, too hard.


Might this thread help? http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/617346-am-i-6-9-a.html

There are some posts here about Sloth and 9 disintegration to 6, as well as core 6.


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

@ScientiaOmnisEst

I was looking through my subscribed threads, and for what it's worth, what you posted below seems very compatible with soc-dom. 



> ... b) there isn't anything I'm particularly passionate about other than overanalyzing myself, which LIKE HELL I'm telling anyone off the internet about that, or c) there is something I'm kinda passionate about, but I'm too ashamed to talk about it - it's stupid, no one wants to hear about that, what if they go too deep into it and I end up looking stupid? Etc...


You *are* passionate, and that's really obvious in your writing, but you seem to feel that your passion isn't welcome in the social realm. I have the same thing. I thought it was 9, now I'm thinking maybe it's So/sx with an out of control social instinct, maybe it *is* sx-last getting squished by the other instincts but still limping along, maybe it's just poor self-esteem. 

I know part of the reason I believe I'm sx-last is because, on these boards, it seems like sx is somehow desirable and _cool_, so obviously I can't be that. I *think* that's a neurotic social instinct talking.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Bathilda said:


> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_
> 
> I was looking through my subscribed threads, and for what it's worth, what you posted below seems very compatible with soc-dom.
> 
> ...



I'll be honest, I have a hard time thinking of myself as passionate _about_ anything. I guess my personal feelings can rise to a level one might consider passion, but even so it's pretty internal and self-focused.

Sx-last always seemed right for me because of this. I'm not really an intense person (or, again, I don't see myself as such) when it comes to anything outside myself, which sx-folk are. At the very least I have a hard time getting to that point and an even harder time expressing it. Also, sp-middle sounds plausible: I take care of that stuff pretty naturally, I only self-neglect when I'm in a really unhealthy place mentally.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

So I'm looking at Type 1 but one thing that I don't relate to is the idea of 1s being harder on themselves than on others. I gave up self-immolation a long time ago. The type of person I imagined myself as being one day was a well-promoted mirage, so any self-loathing stemming from not being that person has long since evaporated.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Is it possible to be a social-dom who's really bad at socializing? I know there's supposed to be only minimal connection, but can, say, a group-focus or interest in more global issues make up for it?


Lol, yeah, I think I count. I'm no smooth Fe-dom socializer by any means. I'm awkward sometimes and I hate social obligation. I like to talk to people I feel comfortable around when I feel like talking and otherwise I would much rather just avoid the whole thing. But I'm pretty sure I'm Social dominant. It's about the way you look at things. 

Here's my favorite Soc description, with some bonus material on stackings: 



Runningfather blog said:


> This cluster of posts, primarily by EnneagramInstitute contributer “logical lee“, are offered in their unedited, raw form. I made a few format changes for an easier reading experience, otherwise they are untouched. I highly recommend you read the source thread and the 10 or so pages of continued discussion on the Riso/Hudson/Gayle Scott Training notes. There is some debate, but also priceless gems for the conscientious sifter  –editor, the RFB
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


Link to secondary source in case you want to read more than just the excerpts I pulled. 

What gets me is the "mechanistic" description. I totally see gears everywhere, things linking, huge multilayered webs of impact. Maybe that's exacerbated by Ne, but it's so potent to me. 

Hope that is somewhat useful 

===

Update on myself - I think 469 tritype is accurate. Triple-doubting, ugh. The discomfort should be a sign that it's probably right, right? RIGHT, BECAUSE I'M DOUBTING? D:

My question for myself now is 6w7-4w3-9w8, or 6w7-9w8-4w3? I think probably the former. I've been avoiding e4 for a longgggg time because I don't really like it. Such is the Enneagram.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Reservations: R&H So5 fits okay enough especially on the action front but the kind of meek, fearful, i-am-small attitude many of the descriptions (and many self-identified 5s on video) seem to have feels quite alien. Basically, feels like a lot of the actions could be explained by INTx, but also that the attitude difference could be easily explained away by INTP/INTJ differences given how INTP centric most 5 materials are.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

None, at the moment. I think 9w8 is a perfect fit, now that I understand it better.


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

Brains said:


> Reservations: R&H So5 fits okay enough especially on the action front but the kind of meek, fearful, i-am-small attitude many of the descriptions (and many self-identified 5s on video) seem to have feels quite alien. Basically, feels like a lot of the actions could be explained by INTx, but also that the attitude difference could be easily explained away by INTP/INTJ differences given how INTP centric most 5 materials are.


And don't forget, the social 5 descriptions tend to emphasize a kind of 8ish 5 who is anything but weak, who goes after other peoples' ideas and demolishes them at the unhealthy levels, or who tells people how it is at the healthy levels. If anything, I'd say there's no room in 5 descriptions (especially) for those of us who blend in fearfully, in a Nineish way, in order to conserve our resources and still get that social fix.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Bathilda said:


> And don't forget, the social 5 descriptions tend to emphasize a kind of 8ish 5 who is anything but weak, who goes after other peoples' ideas and demolishes them at the unhealthy levels, or who tells people how it is at the healthy levels. If anything, I'd say there's no room in 5 descriptions (especially) for those of us who blend in fearfully, in a Nineish way, in order to conserve our resources and still get that social fix.


Do we read different type descriptions? I just can't get over how small and frightened most 5 descriptions feel


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

Brains said:


> Do we read different type descriptions? I just can't get over how small and frightened most 5 descriptions feel


I guess the parts about collapsing into a paranoid stupor out of terror of the everyday world do read a little small and frightened They're fear types, after all. I've always wondered why only sixes were designated as either counterphobic or phobic--seems like it's a pretty useful distinction for fives, too. Plenty of fives seem very counterphobic in their interactions.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Bathilda said:


> I guess the parts about collapsing into a paranoid stupor out of terror of the everyday world do read a little small and frightened They're fear types, after all. I've always wondered why only sixes were designated as either counterphobic or phobic--seems like it's a pretty useful distinction for fives, too. Plenty of fives seem very counterphobic in their interactions.


Arguably, all types have "counter" sides to them. There was an article giving an overview of them I found - I could repost if anyone's interested.


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

angelfish said:


> What gets me is the "mechanistic" description. I totally see gears everywhere, things linking, huge multilayered webs of impact. Maybe that's exacerbated by Ne, but it's so potent to me.


Thank you for this! It's funny you should mention 'webs'--for me, SO, or what I think of as SO, feels like vibrations in a web. If something in the room isn't right, my little spidey sense feels the disturbance in the force no matter *how* deep in conversation I might be. But I would consider literally any stacking for myself right now, so maybe it's not SO at all.

@ScientiaOmnisEst, I meant to reply to your post, but I'm as confused as you are! I'm going to ponder the info in this source a little more.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Arguably, all types have "counter" sides to them. There was an article giving an overview of them I found - I could repost if anyone's interested.


Please do, I'm quite interested


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Arguably, all types have "counter" sides to them. There was an article giving an overview of them I found - I could repost if anyone's interested.


Do you mean countertypes? I'd love to read more on that, if you wouldn't mind.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

@_Bathilda_ and @_aurly_: It's just a short little thing, and it's really more about counter_passions_ than countertypes (which is more of a subtype/variants thing)

Nonetheless:


* *





*Passion and Counterpassion*
by Fabien and Patricia Chabreuil

Is Type Six different from the others? Or do other types portray similar dualistic characteristics?

When learning the Enneagram, many people are surprised to discover that, unlike other types, point Six has two expressions of personality: phobic and counterphobic. This phenomenon is often perceived as an anomaly. It is difficult to understand why only point Six has two distinct versions. One begins to wonder whether this dualistic approach may be applied to other types. Some existing Enneagram literature does suggest a two entity approach to all the types, not just Six.

In the May 1996 issue of Enneagram Monthly, Claudio Naranjo attributed the difference between the two forms of Six to its subtypes. He affirmed that it was possible to generalize this approach to all the types. For example, the sexual subtype of Four, Competition, he described as "competitive and hateful," the social Four was "shy and melodramatic;" and the Self Preservation Four looked very much like a One and was more self-contained or "counter-dependent" and didn't look like a Four at all. [1] 

Admittedly, people of the same type can appear extremely different due to their subtype. For example, there is a strong connection between the phobic-counterphobic duality and the Six subtypes: the Self-preserving (warmth) and the Social (duty) Six are more often phobic and the Sexual (strength-beauty) Six is usually counterphobic. However, the duality of the Six seems to have another aspect: the subtypes are different ways of living the emotional passion. Whereas the Six's phobic and counterphobic duality centers on the awareness or the denial of fear. Similarly, the sexual Four cited by Naranjo doesn't deny his passion of envy; he knows he wants to have something that someone else has and is competitive in order to acquire it.

Another approach consists of remembering that the difference between phobic and counterphobic Sixes is only a different way to name what Oscar Ichazo called the dichotomy of the Six: pushy-surrender. Ichazo assigned a dichotomy to each type. Thus, in theory, the Six duality echoes Ichazo's standard. By using dichotomies, we could consider two distinct versions in each type. [2]

However, here again, the phobic-counterphobic duality of the Six differs from other points. Ichazo's dichotomies define each type's two ways of living in what he calls one of the nine domains of consciousness (Feelings; Health and security; Creativity; Intellect; Social; Work, activities and leisure; Power, hierarchy and rank; Law and moral; Spirituality). These domains are indirectly connected to each type's passion.

To further illustrate this train of thought, we'll analyze with more precision the phobic and counterphobic duality of Six.

Phobic and Counterphobic Sixes
Three concepts are central to understanding the phobic-counterphobic duality of the Six:

1. The duality of the Six is in direct relationship to its passion: fear. In both cases, fear (like the other characteristics of the type) is present. Phobic Sixes know that they're afraid and show it. Counterphobic Sixes also are afraid; however, they deny their fear and seek to prove to others, and themselves, that they can distroy the danger.

2. Counterphobic Sixes often believe that they're practicing the virtue of their type: courage. However, counterphobia is severe and cutthroat.

Some Sixes, and even other types, may find this difficult to admit because the passions in the triangle (3-6-9) are universal emotions. Many people tend to believe that courage is needed to control fear. In fact, fear is the passion of Sixes, the chief feature of the emotional center of their egos; whereas, courage is the virtue of the type, the function of the higher emotional center of their essence. Thus, as long as there is the passion of fear, there is ego. This is sometimes easier to understand in relation to other types. For example, Ones can easily admit that patience does not consist of feeling the anger, then repressing it, and behaving patiently. This is not virtue, it is reaction-formation, the Ones' principal defense mechanism. True patience is immediate, not preceded by anger. 

The majority of Sixes' fears are unrealistic and do not have to be felt (phobic) or be denied (counterphobic). An integrated Six can occasionally feel fear if:
- the fear corresponds to a real danger;
- the fear is not the principal focus of attention;
- the fear is accepted, but not prolonged, amplified, extended to other circumstances, or projected on other people.
In that case, fear is a normal emotion, a positive signal pointing out the reality of the environment. The Six's relationship with fear is summarized below:

The Six is conscious of fear/The Six is not conscious of fear 
The situation is objectively dangerous/The fear is a normal emotion and is not a manifestation of the passion.
The virtue of courage is lived or not. Counterphobia 
There is no objective danger Phobia Counterphobia 


Definition of the notion of Counterpassion
Once this analysis is made, it becomes relatively easy to identify an analogous phenomenon in the other eight types. One of our students, Bénédicte Gasnier, suggested the term "counterpassion" to describe the same emotional quality expressed in two different ways.

People are expressing their counterpassion if they are:
1 …living in their passion;
2 …not conscious of their passion and denying it openly;
3 …behaving in a manner contrary to the attitude which would be induced by their passion;
4 …attaching a positive value to these behaviors. They may confuse counterpassion and integration, especially if they know the Enneagram and assume these behaviors resemble the virtue aspect of their type.

At the same time, this concept does not change the structure of the type: its preferred center, passion or fixation. As with point Six, these structures remain the same whether the person behaves from passion or counterpassion.

The Counterpassions of Each Type
Some brief examples of the counterpassions of the nine Enneagram types.


_One: Renouncement_
The passion of Ones is anger. The counterpassion of Ones is a caricature of the virtue of patience; in these moments, Ones want to be tolerant, neutral, and objective. They let others get away with errors. They think they are indulgent, magnanimous and understanding of others. Nevertheless, Ones notice errors, which shows that they are still being judgmental. Anger bubbles up inside them even if they are not aware of it. Ones' counterpassion is close to, if not equivalent to, its principal defense mechanism, reaction-formation, and consequently is one of the most thoroughly discussed counterpassions in classic type descriptions.

_Two: Self-effacing_
The passion of Twos is pride. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of humility. In these moments, Twos want to keep themselves in the background and say that they are nothing much. For example, they might affirm that their assistance was only a small act of helpfulness among many others. They can also insist that what others bring to them is richer than their contribution, or that the love they give does not come from them, that they are merely a channel for love. Pride is there, of course, and the Twos did nothing but refocus the attention: it is not about being proud of the assistance that they bring, but of their false humility.

_Three: Self-restraint_
The passion of Threes is deceit. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of truth in which Threes try to appear reserved and discrete. When in counterpassion, Threes do not exhibit their achievements or they down-play them; they center their attention and their interest on the other. Threes may consider themselves shy, or others may perceive them as shy. In reality, this reserved approach regarding success and competence is an unconscious action to lower expectations and thereby avoid failure, or minimize its possible effects.

_Four: Self-sufficiency_
The passion of Fours is envy. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of contentment. At that time, Fours want to appear self-sufficient. They claim to be satisfied with who they are and what they have. What others have that they lack is hence useless, devoid of interest and they are happy to do without. In French literature, there is a famous fable, by Jean de La Fontaine, that describes the counterpassion of the Four and reveals a transparent haughtiness and the persistence of envy.

_The Fox and the Grapes_
_(Book III, fable 11)_
_Translated by Norman B. Spector_

_"A certain Gascon Fox, a Norman one others say,_
_Famished, saw on a trellis, up high to his chagrin,_
_Grapes, clearly ripe that day,_
_And all covered with purple skin._
_The rogue would have had a meal for the gods,_
_But, having tried to reach them in vain,_
_"They're too green," he said, "and just suitable for clods."_

Didn't he do better than to complain?

_Five: Extravagance_
The passion of Fives is avarice. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of unselfishness. Then Fives want to appear generous. They will give an enormous amount of information about their subject of interest, holding mini-conferences about almost any situation. Avarice is there, however, because they manage to give this information to people who do not desire it and, thus, inevitably will not understand it or use it. Sometimes Fives unconsciously give subtly incomplete or veiled answers.

_Six: Temerity_
The passion of Sixes is fear. The counterpassion is a overcompensation from fear. In these situations, Sixes are harsh; they aggressively face dangers. This is the counterphobic Six so often described in Enneagram literature.

_Seven: Austerity_
The passion of Sevens is gluttony. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of sobriety or temperance. Sevens may then practice excessive self-control. They want to appear to be serious. They don't allow themselves any joy or rest. They limit their mental capacities, by either underusing them or focalizing them too much. They are proud of this seriousness that gives them a sort of masochistic happiness. The passion of gluttony appears as an excess of control. More is better: the battle cry of Sevens is still present, only now its focus has changed.

_Eight: Waryness_
The passion of Eights is excess and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of simplicity. In which case, Eights want to appear careful, measured and decent. They are reticent, hold back their anger; and may choose an ascetic way of life. However, even in these circumstances, Eights continue to go to extremes. An excess of simplicity is still excess. In Eights, the passion-counterpassion duality resembles Ichazo's term for the Eight's dichotomy, hedonist-puritan.

_Nine: Hyperactivity_
The passion of Nines is sloth and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of activity. Nines are then hyperactive, perpetually agitated and overloaded with tasks. Although they often produce quantities of work effectively, idleness is still present: these activities are practical but have the effect that the more Nines do, the more they forget themselves. This counterpassion is one of the first we observed, and we interpreted it at the time that these Nines use work and activities as a means of narcotisation (their principal defense mechanism).

An even more subtle form of Nine's counterpassion is a hyperactive pursuit personal development. Such Nines devour books, workshops, therapists, and gurus. They profess to thirst after self-knowledge; however, they end up spinning their wheels, changing nothing.


Using the Concept of Counterpassion
The interest in using this counterpassion concept is two-fold and once again, we can apply what we have observed with the examples of phobic and counterphobic Six to all types.

The first application is educational. As teachers and impassioned lovers of the Enneagram, we want people to benefit from this extraordinary system and, of course, it all starts with identifying one's type.

Counterphobic Sixes typically have difficulty identifying their Enneagram type. This is normal since counterphobia encourages them to deny the principal characteristic of their type, fear. Sometimes this type is difficult to identify from the outside for the same reason. However, Sixes are not the only ones with this problem. In all other types, there are people who identify with the passion of their respective type or with its counterpassion. Being familiar with this distinction allows people who are more identified with counterpassion to more easily identify their types, and begin the Enneagram path of psycho-spiritual development.

Understanding the concept of counterpassion decreases the likelihood of misinterpreting our true motives and state of development For example, counterphobic Sixes often believe they are practicing the virtue of courage when they are actually expressing the counterphobic qualities of foolhardiness. Therefore, instead of letting go of their passion, they fight it and try to master it. All the other types may make the same mistake believing they are connected to the virtue of their type while they are actually living out their counterpassion. For example, one of our type Seven students described the way he used this mechanism: "By suppressing the wordplay and mental chatter of Seven, I have become a sinister and haughty individual, without any spontaneity." We know many people who have made the same error, and have not always escaped this tendency ourselves. The discovery of the concept of counterpassion has helped us and we hope it will also help others.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Ack, an experience yesterday has me leaning towards Nine again: I'm a wuss, no idea how to enforce boundaries, and I remembered the other reason I typed at Nine - I'm too nice for my own good. 

The short version is: yesterday I received a love confession from some guy old enough to be my father. He noticed me as I was walking home and asked me to talk - it only took a few minutes before he told me he's seen me around, and thinks everything about me is beautiful (a comment that should cure my self-esteem issues but instead just makes me balk - my clothes are frumpy, my skin looks like crap as a result of almost a month of binging on junk food, which is also the reason I'm overweight...). Soon after he insisted that he "wants" me, wants to kiss me, insists he would be good to me and never hurt me or anything...this rambling went on for about half an hour, and he repeated himself so many times I think he might have been a bit drunk (he _did_ ask me if I drank).

And me? I sat there, completely emotionally numb except for a running background discomfort that occasionally spoke up in my mind as "Can I go home now?" However, I sat and smiled through the whole thing, thanked him and said I was flattered. All the while my mind was scrambling looking for a polite way to extricate myself - I ended up giving the guy my freaking phone number and got "I miss you" texts within two hours...after which I told him that he came on too strong and I needed time to process it all, but ultimately I'm not interested and I best tell him now so as not to lead him on. I think it went over well...also I had tried to turn him down in person.

But yeah...boundaries. Seriously, this guy had offered to walk me home, asked if I would be interested in dinner or a movie - I wanted to say no, but ended up with a kind of "Eh, maybe." Then a red flag went way, way up when he said he's been admiring me for almost a year...I've only lived in this area for less than two months. I asked if maybe he had me confused for someone else...no, he's certain it's me. I let the guy hold my hand (and kiss it, to my surprise. Still numb, though), though I was terribly self-conscious about the whole thing - it felt strange. Went we parted I had intended to proffer a handshake, instead he appeared to want a hug - I thought it couldn't be that bad, I _had_ basically rejected him (though the notion of hugging someone I just met is rather distasteful to me), maybe I should make up for it. Until he kissed my cheek. I'm sorry, I just effing met you, _NO_. Yes, I pulled away, said a last goodbye and went on my way. I think he might have called after me; I couldn't quite hear over the traffic noise. 

And yet, after I got home I'm wondering: do I have any _right_ to reject this? To someone who just a couple days ago was racked with loneliness, this kind of thing should be manna from heaven. Am I being unnecessarily picky? Is there a semi-conscious racial component that makes this person unattractive to me, and if so, how much of a horrible person does that make me? Should I go along with the "age is just a number" spiel even though I am indeed quite weirded out by being so passionately approached by someone twice my age? Is this the best I can do, so I should just take it...?

Also, something crossed my mind later on: I'd bet money this guy's an sx-dom (personality theory has taken over my brain). This is why I type as an sx-last: these kind of intense people scare me a little, even if I already know and like them; hence a stranger is just freaky to me. 

I have no idea if I should be trying to use my reaction to this experience as a typing tool. Maybe I'm just getting this off my chest in an inappropriate spot. Or maybe my reaction says something about me?

Okay, that wasn't short. Sry.


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> And yet, after I got home I'm wondering: do I have any _right_ to reject this? To someone who just a couple days ago was racked with loneliness, this kind of thing should be manna from heaven. Am I being unnecessarily picky?


Holy shit, this is the creepiest thing I've ever heard. I might have done the same thing you did out of sheer terror. This guy has serious issues and I would bet he was trying to prey on a much younger person for sex, money, or both. This smacks of pickup artist crap to me. If he comes up to you again, try to get a name and picture in case you have a stalking issue. I'm glad you're ok!

I'm not sure any withdrawn type wouldn't have done something similar. I know you're not considering Two, but I can see a Two listening to this and actually _encouraging_ him to say more about his life, or a Seven just listening for the hell of it--so I'm not sure this is solid evidence for Nine. It's just a really weird situation. But the fact that you ever considered for a moment that you might have an obligation to this guy says Nine to me, just easily slipping into his point of view.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm not sure about my head fix, as the 6 could be just from disintegration. Not sure how to tell if I have a 6 fix or a 5 fix.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> That makes me wonder if the problem many people have with more deeply understanding the Enneagram types is that they draw a line between the two as you do above (i.e., the Enneagram is good for this and the MBTI is good for that and I have to limit their use to the domain where they're most appropriate).
> 
> Personally, I use the Enneagram for the motivations, the means or perspectives, etc. I do this by understanding each type in terms of the functional attention at work underneath personality to create one integrated system instead of using two disparate systems to compensate for the traditional limitations of both systems.
> 
> That may be a clue as to why people have difficulty with what I'm presenting regarding the Enneagram as types of attention vs. personality types. I'm not sure how to get around their preconceived notions though (or whether I should even bother trying). I thought of introducing a separate system in order to drop the baggage that goes with the traditional Enneagram types but then I don't know there would be any audience for it. That's why I'm writing a series of three books to get to that point.


I'm not interested in merging the systems in that way because I think it OVER does the point of each. I draw limits like that intentionally, as when you overextend the Enneagram so much it detracts from the purity of what it's really worth as well as from a better view of the whole.

I get wanting to extend one way of thinking about humans to the point where it covers everything. You create a theory of everything that way and it lets you feel like you understand it. But to me, a "theory of everything" has to have an actual root in reality. It has to be explanatory in a way that's testable, and it has to act as an underlay from which everything else can be SHOWN to be built. Enneagram isn't that. It's a psychospiritual system that has its use and can definitely give depth and purpose to people's existence, but I don't find it to be the sole root of human reality. So I separate it from other systems that have some similar roles in other realms and treat them on a level playing field with each other in analysis. And I decide which to present to people who are looking for perspective based on the situation and what it seems to require to connect the dots in the most accurate, salient way.

We really do think differently, you and I. And we apparently do hold the same enneatype, more or less. That tells me that there's definitely space for my way of understanding and putting things together.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

sassafrassthelioness said:


> Oh, God, yes YES you DO have the right to reject this! Please please don't cave into that guy out of a a sense of unworthiness - I know I don't know you but you ARE worthy and you are most definitely worthy of a safe and good and right kind of love. @_Bathilda_ is right, that's a super creepy story. He does not sound like a safe person - I think her advice is spot on.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't know enough about Enneagram to say anything about what this episode means personality-wise.


Well, he's stopped calling and I think he forgot about me, so I guess crisis averted. 



However, I was thinking like crazy last night and I finally had to admit something:

It seems the core of my self-worth issues, my fear, my weird image-problems...is love. A need for love, a fear that I will never receive love unless I am a certain way, a conviction that I am unlovable and will be rejected, abandoned, or ignored accordingly, weird inhibitions with expressing love...

This probably points to Nine, doesn't it? Holy Love and all that.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Sounds more like an image type than a nine. Nines are conflict allergic and characterized by psychological inertia more than anything. The typical diplomatic catering to others bent is to avoid being upset, not to make oneself lovable, primarily.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> I'm not interested in merging the systems in that way because I think it OVER does the point of each. I draw limits like that intentionally, as when you overextend the Enneagram so much it detracts from the purity of what it's really worth as well as from a better view of the whole.


I'm curious if you would consider the MBTI as personality types or psychological types (as Jung originally called them). It seems that many people use them to explore underlying psychological processes or functions. Perhaps because they can better be understood and used as psychological types (which makes sense to me).

Conversely, I don't see the Enneagram types as personality types but build off the idea of ego-types (as Ichazo originally used them). They're not about personality directly for me but can better be used to discover the structure of ego (underlying psychological processes and structures).

It's curious to me that people on this site tend to use the MBTI and Jungian concepts to explain the underlying psychological processes and structures of the Enneagram types when there is no correlation between the two systems. If anything, I'm trying to keep the two systems separate and explore the Enneagram types deeper to discover the processes and structures at the core of the Enneagram types without muddying the water by bringing in the MBTI and Jungian concepts to do so. That's my form of purity with the Enneagram types.

I have the sense that people merge the two systems for two primary reasons:

1) They're already familiar with the MBTI/Jungian systems and they're trying to understand the Enneagram types through that.
2) The Enneagram types are not understood and explained at a deep enough level in terms of psychological processes so people are filling in the gaps using the MBTI/Jungian systems.

My work is simply to deal with #2 above without looking to the MBTI/Jungian systems to do so. But to do this requires creating a foundation for exploring that - which is what I've done and what I use. I simply see no need to use the MBTI/Jungian systems to understand the Enneagram types (it's curious to me that people seem to have difficulty understanding that). Which brings me back to my quote that you originally replied to.



> _I was just noting that a lot of people here like to bring the MBTI into explaining the Enneagram but I don't find that useful._


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Brains said:


> Sounds more like an image type than a nine. Nines are conflict allergic and characterized by psychological inertia more than anything. The typical diplomatic catering to others bent is to avoid being upset, not to make oneself lovable, primarily.


Actually, nines sense for being diplomatically invisible is definitely connected to the need to be regarded as lovable. This sure can be interpreted as image triad related, but it's a different thing for nines.
You're right in that it is to avoid being upset, but a big portion of not being upset, to the nine, is to not upset others. Because upsetting others will lose the perceived (peaceful) connection they have with them. And here, we're talking about the holy love idea for nines. They're disconnected from it, hence why they try so damn hard to stay 'lovable' to others. But unlike image types, they don't combat this deep sense of (unconscious) unlovableness by making favorable impressions, rather, they do it by keeping relations harmonic and strife-free.

Similar to the image triad, type nine has a deep and unconscious sense of being unworthy of love. But to the nine, this comes from feeling, deep down, that they don't matter anyway.. Which is different from the shame-related wound of the image triad.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Brains said:


> Sounds more like an image type than a nine. Nines are conflict allergic and characterized by psychological inertia more than anything. The typical diplomatic catering to others bent is to avoid being upset, not to make oneself lovable, primarily.


Was that for me?

Yeah, I seem torn between core Nine, and some kind of image core.

I don't even like admitting the whole love thing - I denied it for while, especially before I started trying to study Enneagram...then it kind of became more obvious the more I self-analyzed. I guess it just sounds so pathetic...

And I _am_ conflict-allergic - sort of. I know I'm not very contradictory or argumentative, and as I detailed elsewhere on this thread I'm often too nice for my own good.

@_Spirit Animal_: Where does the thought of "I need to make myself matter" come in? Or "I need to fix myself in order to matter/be loved/be a functioning part of humanity, etc"? Honest question.

------------------------


Also, rethinking instincts. Sx-last, definitely. But so/sp or sp/so. Apparently, I'm really quite good at taking care of self-pres issues, but social matters are where I'm liable to get bent out of shape; it's also where I think my conversational interests lie. With self-pres stuff, it's more just "Well, duh, of course you should attend to that. That just makes sense." the sexual instinct is just weird to me. Huh. Maybe I'm a social-dom after all.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> @_Spirit Animal_: Where does the thought of "I need to make myself matter" come in? Or "I need to fix myself in order to matter/be loved/be a functioning part of humanity, etc"? Honest question.


For me personally, this is exactly the reason I've been so invested in my image, as in finding out who I truly am (because for so long I didn't have a clue). I have this pinterest page in my signature where I've been compiling pics that I connect with so that I can 'see' myself better, in a way. I've been doing stuff like that all over the place, and in different avenues, to make a point in not ever forgetting myself again. That's how I relate to those thoughts (which felt very relatable btw). I can feel like I have nothing of value to offer to this world, and I (try) counteracting this by being as aware as possible of my identity. Which still feels so fragile and somewhat 'fake', even if I'm being as honest and true to my heart as I can be.
(maybe the other fixes play a part in how these type of things play out?)



> Also, rethinking instincts. Sx-last, definitely. But so/sp or sp/so. Apparently, I'm really quite good at taking care of self-pres issues, but social matters are where I'm liable to get bent out of shape; it's also where I think my conversational interests lie. With self-pres stuff, it's more just "Well, duh, of course you should attend to that. That just makes sense." the sexual instinct is just weird to me. Huh. Maybe I'm a social-dom after all.


Ha! The way you feel about sp related stuff is how I feel about social related stuff. And I figure I'm social second. Just throwing it out there


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Also, rethinking instincts. Sx-last, definitely. But so/sp or sp/so. Apparently, I'm really quite good at taking care of self-pres issues, but social matters are where I'm liable to get bent out of shape; it's also where I think my conversational interests lie. With self-pres stuff, it's more just "Well, duh, of course you should attend to that. That just makes sense." the sexual instinct is just weird to me. Huh. Maybe I'm a social-dom after all.


I'm Sx/Sp and I relate to how you described Sp stuff exactly. My life is an Sp nightmare (chronic illness, symptoms that come and go, 50 medications a day, constant doctor appointments, might not be able to walk normally at any given time after walking normally for years, suddenly losing hair, becoming confused because of cognitive issues etc) - but I just deal with it, take my meds and eat with them when I must, and don't think much of it. When shit hits the fan with my illness, I get upset of course, because it interferes with my love life or work life or interests, my goals etc, but I just deal with it a day at a time and have done so since I was 16. My mother and brother are Sp first and they both face chronic health issues but they are much more worried and obsessed over each decision and solution, each problem, etc... they are less likely to "just deal with it" than I am.. they have their own very opposite ways of confronting their Sp-firstness, but Sp stuff is easily on their mind more than it is on mine, even though I am sicker than either of them.

And I get bent out of shape over Sx issues, as in , they can be cathartic and world-shaping.. and well.. social issues.. I have no problem having friends or socializing, being social in the colloquial sense.. but when I _have_ to be social, like meet someone's parents or network in the arts in order to "make it" or do anything that involves networking or socializing that I am FORCED to do where I NEED to make a certain impression, I will quite literally crumble into a ball and cry worrying about how I will fuck it up, or I will not think about it at all, but then while I am doing it, I get panicky and jittery and talk way too fast.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> I'm curious if you would consider the MBTI as personality types or psychological types (as Jung originally called them). It seems that many people use them to explore underlying psychological processes or functions. Perhaps because they can better be understood and used as psychological types (which makes sense to me).
> 
> Conversely, I don't see the Enneagram types as personality types but build off the idea of ego-types (as Ichazo originally used them). They're not about personality directly for me but can better be used to discover the structure of ego (underlying psychological processes and structures).
> 
> ...


To me, the kernel of a human is separate from each of these systems. They both shape themselves using the kernel. They both build in personal specifics that humans have that are different from other people - their temperament, their original tendencies in thought - as well as how the environment develops those.

But I don't think Enneagram types _are_ cognitive in the same way. Yes, Enneagram types have something to do with "how" we think, but they don't inform the specific structure of our thought, more the instinctual patterns that guide our thought to some of its purposes. A type 5 ISFJ, for example - still type 5, but not going to express or manifest it in the exact same way as a type 5 INTJ. 

I do agree that Enneagram types will intertwine with ego structure. Jungian types do as well, but in a different way - they speak to what types of data are accessible or acceptable to our conscious mind, vs. what is not accepted etc. By contrast, the Enneagram looks directly at the primal part of our minds, exploring our tendencies in fear, anger, shame. Those are _nonspecific_ tendencies which have _intrinsic_ patterns but not _extrinsic_ - Jungian types are extrinsic.

The way I see it, Jung was looking for his typing system to be something like Enneagram in depth. He laid out a vision for ego structure as well. And yes, the perspectives (functions) attach themselves to the ego structure in a way, but ultimately it's on a different level from Enneagram. The deep structure that Jung saw was one that's common to all humans, and the elements fixed to it were what differed, that's why it appears to be extrinsic. With Enneagram, the idea of there being this underlying structure remains the same, but it actually seems to differ between types if you think about it. Having an anger type puts you in a rather different headspace and structures you differently from having a fear type - you respond to the world differently on a _primal_ level.

I can't do this any longer right now, I have to go to work. I will talk to you more later.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Spirit Animal said:


> For me personally, this is exactly the reason I've been so invested in my image, as in finding out who I truly am (because for so long I didn't have a clue). I have this pinterest page in my signature where I've been compiling pics that I connect with so that I can 'see' myself better, in a way. I've been doing stuff like that all over the place, and in different avenues, to make a point in not ever forgetting myself again. That's how I relate to those thoughts (which felt very relatable btw). I can feel like I have nothing of value to offer to this world, and I (try) counteracting this by being as aware as possible of my identity. Which still feels so fragile and somewhat 'fake', even if I'm being as honest and true to my heart as I can be.
> (maybe the other fixes play a part in how these type of things play out?)


The thing with me is I do have some idea of who I am - when I can separate it from what I think I should be. And I tend to be painfully aware of what I want to be and how different it is from how I see myself currently. 

I kind of see myself combatting that perception of "no value" by zooming in on what I think I need to do to have value, and planning ways to get there...and trying to do something about it. That and wallowing in that feeling of a low-self opinion - the phrase that usually ends up repeating in my mind when I dwell on it too long is "It's not fair." It's not fair that nearly everyone else has that core of value, special and worthwhile traits that let them be liked and I don't; it's not fair that I'm going to have to claw and consume to be as good as anyone else; it's not fair that I have to earn my own self-acceptance....

But anyway.

One issue is I_ have _self-forgotten, or at least self-deluded, in the sense of convincing myself I am a certain way when I'm really not; there was always a nagging feeling that something wasn't right, but I guess I had so much of my identity invested there that it took a lot to break away. It felt so freeing though, admitting what I'm really like. Now there's just the issue of being "less than ideal". 




> Ha! The way you feel about sp related stuff is how I feel about social related stuff. And I figure I'm social second. Just throwing it out there


Well, this is insightful, thanks.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> The thing with me is I do have some idea of who I am - when I can separate it from what I think I should be. And I tend to be painfully aware of what I want to be and how different it is from how I see myself currently.


Well yeah, I always had some idea of who I am too, it's just that I felt that I couldn't 'embody' myself, or what I stood for.
My sense of self and my sense of what/who I wanted to be has always been separate. This is different from image types, because they actually identify with their identity (duh). It's more cohesive.
Lol, I'm having such a hard time expressing myself right now 



> I kind of see myself combatting that perception of "no value" by zooming in on what I think I need to do to have value, and planning ways to get there...and trying to do something about it. That and wallowing in that feeling of a low-self opinion - the phrase that usually ends up repeating in my mind when I dwell on it too long is "It's not fair." It's not fair that nearly everyone else has that core of value, special and worthwhile traits that let them be liked and I don't; it's not fair that I'm going to have to claw and consume to be as good as anyone else; it's not fair that I have to earn my own self-acceptance....


I've tended to think it's not fair that other people just know what they want and what they stand for, whereas I am just feeling lost in that department.



> But anyway.
> 
> One issue is I_ have _self-forgotten, or at least self-deluded, in the sense of convincing myself I am a certain way when I'm really not; there was always a nagging feeling that something wasn't right, but I guess I had so much of my identity invested there that it took a lot to break away. It felt so freeing though, admitting what I'm really like. Now there's just the issue of being "less than ideal".


Oh yeah, it's hard, but freeing, to be aware of who you are instead of a certain version in your mind. I still struggle with not living up to how I wish I was like. But I'm finding that the more I get in touch with 'me' in the present, in my body, the less I invest in this ideal of mine and I can more easily go for where my true passions lie instead of trying to live up to this ideal that will always be out of reach (and wouldn't be fulfilling anyway).



> Well, this is insightful, thanks.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm so confused.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Spirit Animal said:


> Well yeah, I always had some idea of who I am too, it's just that I felt that I couldn't 'embody' myself, or what I stood for.
> My sense of self and my sense of what/who I wanted to be has always been separate. This is different from image types, because they actually identify with their identity (duh). It's more cohesive.
> Lol, I'm having such a hard time expressing myself right now


Indeed you are, because I'm not entirely sure what you mean by identifying with one's identity. Though having a distance between one's current sense of self and one's ideal self...how else could it be?




> Oh yeah, it's hard, but freeing, to be aware of who you are instead of a certain version in your mind. I still struggle with not living up to how I wish I was like. But I'm finding that the more I get in touch with 'me' in the present, in my body, the less I invest in this ideal of mine and I can more easily go for where my true passions lie instead of trying to live up to this ideal that will always be out of reach (and wouldn't be fulfilling anyway).


I envy you, being able to let go like that. If anything, fro me, it just intensified the idealization, made me more unconfortable about my real interests, standards, desires, etc. Like I feel compelled to continue comparing myself to that ideal, even as I realize more and more that no, it wouldn't be fulfilling to me, it's actually so much the opposite of me and what I want it would be more damaging to aspire to it...but people who resemble that ideal are "better" so I shouldn't like what I am.

Maybe I'm just really freaking unhealthy.


Also, do you and @Animal have the same avatar? Because it's a little confusing when I see them in my Thanks box...


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Spirit Animal said:


> Similar to the image triad, type nine has a deep and unconscious sense of being unworthy of love. But to the nine, this comes from feeling, deep down, that they don't matter anyway.. Which is different from the shame-related wound of the image triad.


So how would you describe it being for the image triad in comparison?



> For me personally, this is exactly the reason I've been so invested in my image, as in finding out who I truly am (because for so long I didn't have a clue). I have this pinterest page in my signature where I've been compiling pics that I connect with so that I can 'see' myself better, in a way.


Hm, personally I feel like I _do _know myself, but I like the idea of "discovering" that I'm not as bad as I think I am. Then lately I've been trying to find pictures I connect with as well as that seems interesting (like it's one way to present myself when I want the attention), but then I find that it's not so easy for me to connect with pictures and such. Wondering how 9ish that is.

@_ScientiaOmnisEst_
Lol, sometimes I'm not sure if I'm Sp-last or Sp-first, personally. Yeah, wouldn't say I have an easy time with Sp-matters. Overall I think Sp-dom makes the most sense, though, as I feel the most despair over my lack of immortality. Along with some other reasons that aren't as easy to explain, but...


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Also, do you and @_Animal_ have the same avatar? Because it's a little confusing when I see them in my Thanks box...


*giggle*


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Also, do you and @_Animal_ have the same avatar? Because it's a little confusing when I see them in my Thanks box...


Merging, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Distortions said:


> Merging, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Sx....


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Animal said:


> Sx....


Well, I've seen Sx 9 in particular being described as having this merging quality, so...


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Distortions said:


> Well, I've seen Sx 9 in particular being described as having this merging quality, so...


I've seen lots of types described in lots of ways. But to speak for myself, when I'm in love that person becomes part of my sense of self, my sense of purpose, my identity. In love, of course, is specific and does not apply to all relationships or crushes. But when that relationship feels like part of _me_, there is definitely mergence, and I echo him just as he echoes me, though ideally we still retain our own dreams, goals and sense of self as well. I have not observed this being any different for 9s.

I understand the idea of 9s "merging" being related to not having a strong opinion or feeling like their opinion doesn't matter, thus going along with what others are doing only to resent it later, or refusing to make waves.. but I have not seen any evidence that 9s simply "merge" more than others. If anything, 9s who are just "going along with things" aren't merging in an "Sx" sense because they are not contributing their own energy and force to the scenario. For an Sx 9, part of fulfillment might be feeling like their own personality and force is welcome in that relationship. So it's not exactly "merging" as much as "coming to life" and breathing each other's life. 


^_^


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@Animal
Cool


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Indeed you are, because I'm not entirely sure what you mean by identifying with one's identity. Though having a distance between one's current sense of self and one's ideal self...how else could it be?


Both the image I have of myself and my ideal (image) feel separate from me, the person. I have no idea what it feels like to completely identify with my image. Yet that's exactly what image types do, they need to learn the difference between what is real (authentic) and what is not.



> I envy you, being able to let go like that. If anything, fro me, it just intensified the idealization, made me more unconfortable about my real interests, standards, desires, etc. Like I feel compelled to continue comparing myself to that ideal, even as I realize more and more that no, it wouldn't be fulfilling to me, it's actually so much the opposite of me and what I want it would be more damaging to aspire to it...but people who resemble that ideal are "better" so I shouldn't like what I am.
> 
> Maybe I'm just really freaking unhealthy.


It's difficult for me too though, it's a very slow process. And at first especially, the disconnection between what is and what I feel ought to be, is so freaking painful, it's hard to not focus on that, or on anyone who does embody the qualities I admire. It gets better though.



> Also, do you and @_Animal_ have the same avatar? Because it's a little confusing when I see them in my Thanks box...


:blushed:



Distortions said:


> So how would you describe it being for the image triad in comparison?


Where nines will feel a constant sense of resignation on some level, the image types won't have that. They will do anything in their power to 'build themselves' - or rather, their image. Because they that's all they've got, but at least, they feel like they have *something*. (To them, it's their world) It's innate, unconscious for them. Whereas for me, it's more of a concept in my mind that I have an easier time referring to as something apart from me.



> Hm, personally I feel like I _do _know myself, but I like the idea of "discovering" that I'm not as bad as I think I am. Then lately I've been trying to find pictures I connect with as well as that seems interesting (like it's one way to present myself when I want the attention), but then I find that it's not so easy for me to connect with pictures and such. Wondering how 9ish that is.


Yeah, no idea really, I've always had an easy time connecting with drawings, pictures, music, etc.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Distortions said:


> So how would you describe it being for the image triad in comparison?


To speak for myself as an image type, I feel like it's hard to draw the line between "life" and "art." I don't know where that line is. I am a work of art (my clothes, my motion).. my room is art (even if nobody sees it but me, I need my environment to be beautiful).. my passion is art.. I love taking photos of the things that impassion me and inspire me..and writing songs about my feelings, stories about my fantasies, etc. Even my dreams at night, which I have no control over, are full of beautiful imagery, emotions, passion, symbols, memories, fears and shames. And all of those are easily captured in art or conversation. 

So where does it end? Which parts of my life aren't art? Surviving? Taking my pills? Going to a boring day job? The parts of my life that I share with others are the passion, the pain, the rage, the beauty, the ugly.. but not the mundane. And this is both isolating and also, connects me to people's souls.

It's isolating because, like everyone, my life is full of mundane crap. Yet that is not how I represent myself or how I communicate. So if someone lives with me, I spend most of my time in my room or off alone, doing my own thing, and share only the parts that I feel like.. "communicate something" or someone might relate to, or which might accentuate my artistry. But I can't just BE. I feel shame when people ask me questions like "What do you do today?" or they want to talk about mundane things like what food I like. I can never come up with mundane answers to mundane questions. And I feel isolated in a way because everyone else is concerned with these things that I can't relate to or just don't want to share, even if they exist for me too (for instance, I like food, ofc, but I don't feel the need to discuss it).

But at a certain point I have to wonder: when the glamor fades away, would someone love me? But then I think - the glamor can't "fade away" because it is innate for me to see the world that way and communicate that way. But then I think - what about when I'm sick . Or too tired to think or be interesting or beautiful. What about when I gain weight or when I get old and wrinkled. When I lost my singing voice I felt like there was nothing else to love about me, and I still have that innate feeling. That without doing these things - which are still very much a part of me - there would be nothing to love. Without communicating this artistry that makes up my outlook, there's nothing. My bare, naked humanity is not enough unless I am taking a picture of it. 

And I can't honestly strip that stuff away. My artistry IS me. My passion IS me. Sometimes it's too much. Until now, it was too much for anyone in a relationship. My art and dedication to it keeps me from being a "wife" - cooking well, thinking about being a mother etc - so it isolates me because that is what most people want. It keeps me from being a friend because I am busy working on my stuff and doing things that turn me on (like being alone in nature) rather than mundane socializing or parties where people stand around and talk about trifles. It is isolating unless I find people who live the way I live, feel the way I feel; who are from my planet. And I used to worry that even then, I'd be unlovable because what happens in those moments when the passion is not burning? What if someone from my planet falls in love with my glamor and gets disappointed by my humanity (if there is a difference)? Or what if there's too much glamor and they find me inauthentic or not simple enough, not human enough? What if there's just too much image to strip away and they find it tiring?

It's complicated.. but I think these are different from 9 issues anyway.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

I think I need to cut this mistype farce short. The more I read, the more I realize what a crap personality I have. MBTI and Enneagram combined...

Yeah, I'm frustrated. There are reasons I fought it for so long.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Spirit Animal said:


> Where nines will feel a constant sense of resignation on some level, the image types won't have that.


This is not true. Image types aren't _born_ with that. But, stuff happens.


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

I am thinking i might be a 9w8... @Swordsman of Mana what do you think?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Hybrid Shark Wolf said:


> I am thinking i might be a 9w8... @Swordsman of Mana what do you think?


hell no, you are way too argumentative, superego-driven, opinionated and high strung to be 9w8


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> hell no, you are way too argumentative, superego-driven, opinionated and high strung to be 9w8


Someone may appear argumentative, opinionated, and high strung for a variety of different reasons (i.e. family environment, lack of self awareness, cultural differences, etc). I'm not really sure you can use labels such as these to define types (it's also a matter of perspective as such labels are subjective; what you find "argumentative" I might just find amusing, etc). There are many different ways to explain patterns in behaviour other than Enneagram ( I'm highly sceptical that you can even make predictions about type based on such superficial markers, anyway. Internal drivers/motivations will manifest in a variety of different behaviours influences by a number of factors).

Similarly, what does it mean to be "superego-driven." This just seems like another Enneagram buzzword that's flung around that nobody really takes the time to stop and de-construct/think about.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

The Perfect Storm said:


> Someone may appear argumentative, opinionated, and high strung for a variety of different reasons (i.e. family environment, lack of self awareness, cultural differences, etc).


at first, yes, but when you get to know someone, the difference between learned and natural characteristics tends to become more clear



> I'm not really sure you can use labels such as these to define types (it's also a matter of perspective as such labels are subjective; what you find "argumentative" I might just find amusing, etc).


I'm not just going off of that. I've talked at length with him on skype



> There are many different ways to explain patterns in behaviour other than Enneagram ( I'm highly sceptical that you can even make predictions about type based on such superficial markers, anyway. Internal drivers/motivations will manifest in a variety of different behaviours influences by a number of factors).


perhaps so, but at the same time, this is often a convenient way to dismiss dissenting opinions. Enneagram descriptions contain behavior patterns for a reason, and those can't be completely ignored or dismissed, even if no one is going to fit them perfectly



> Similarly, what does it mean to be "superego-driven." This just seems like another Enneagram buzzword that's flung around that nobody really takes the time to stop and de-construct/think about.


basically, being very critical, "should" driven, having a strong interest in duty/obligation, etc


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> at first, yes, but when you get to know someone, the difference between learned and natural characteristics tends to become more clear


I'm not sure it's as simple as that. For example, therapists that have spent many years training are still at risk of projecting onto their patients/clients (this is a huge issue in the profession). In fact, I have a good friend who is a psychotherapist and she is required to attend weekly therapy sessions precisely for this reason. I actually think it is incredibly hard to remain completely detached and objective when it comes to analysing others. Humans kind of suck at it because we all have our own bias.

How do you determine whether a characteristic is "natural" as opposed to "learned". I ask because I find it difficult to distinguish and define such traits in myself and find it almost impossible to do so in others. 



> I'm not just going off of that. I've talked at length with him on skype


Again, I don't understand how you can draw such a conclusion with such little information. I'm not saying it's impossible, just wondering what your process is. (Perhaps Se-dominance has something to do with this. :/)



> perhaps so, but at the same time, this is often a convenient way to dismiss dissenting opinions. Enneagram descriptions contain behavior patterns for a reason, and those can't be completely ignored or dismissed, even if no one is going to fit them perfectly


It being a convenient way to dismiss dissenting opinions is irrelevant here. To dismiss an argument because it's "convenient" is just another form of deflection. Also, it kinds of shits all over what could potentially be an insightful conversation.

I never said they should be ignored, I am merely pointing out their limitations. Its called critical thinking. 

EDIT: missed your last point, my bad.



> basically, being very critical, "should" driven, having a strong interest in duty/obligation, etc


Hmm. I'd say I am pretty critical and "should" driven (not so much duty/obligation though). It's unlikely that I'm a superego type. I think stuff like this becomes confusing because everyone has an internal critic/parent, the question is how to separate this from what it means to be a"super-ego type". This is where it gets confusing for me.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

The Perfect Storm said:


> I'm not sure it's as simple as that. For example, therapists that have spent many years training are still at risk of projecting onto their patients/clients (this is a huge issue in the profession). In fact, I have a good friend who is a psychotherapist and she is required to attend weekly therapy sessions precisely for this reason. I actually think it is incredibly hard to remain completely detached and objective when it comes to analysing others. Humans kind of suck at it because we all have our own bias.
> 
> How do you determine whether a characteristic is "natural" as opposed to "learned". I ask because I find it difficult to distinguish and define such traits in myself and find it almost impossible to do so in others.


it's kind of subjective, but it comes from a combination of motivations, behaviors and overall energy (which is much easier to read than people make it out to be)




> Again, I don't understand how you can draw such a conclusion with such little information. I'm not saying it's impossible, just wondering what your process is.


because it's not a little bit of information, it's quite a bit of information. I don't make premature analyses, but I know when I have enough data to spot a clear trend



> (Perhaps Se-dominance has something to do with this. :/)


I'm an Ne dom darling :wink:




> It being a convenient way to dismiss dissenting opinions is irrelevant here. To dismiss an argument because it's "convenient" is just another form of deflection. Also, it kinds of shits all over what could potentially be an insightful conversation.
> I never said they should be ignored, I am merely pointing out their limitations. Its called critical thinking.


critical thinking is well and good (I never dismissed the entirety of the conversation), but eternal skepticism (ie: thinking along the lines of "you can never _really_ know anything) is unproductive and, yes, something I can be a bit more dismissive of. additionally, yes, there is an outlying possibility that a type 9 would display those characteristics, but the likelihood that they would display ALL of them is several standard deviations from the mean, if you will. it's best to be open minded, but possibilities beyond a certain likelihood require a more compelling case to be considered.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> it's kind of subjective, but it comes from a combination of motivations, behaviours and overall energy (which is much easier to read than people make it out to be)


If someone told me that they thought I was type x because of my "energy" (without offering a clear logical explanation) I'd have a hard time not laughing in their face, lol. xD

On a serious note, despite my facetiousness I do kind of understand what you're getting at here. However, my point still stands about personal projection/bias. It's important to analyse _why _it is that you understand and interpret information in certain way. After all, what we are talking about here is just pattern recognition, right? Those patterns can be interpreted in a number of different ways. It gets kinda confusing when people aren't speaking the same language. This is why I ask for clarification for what people mean when they use certain words, or phrases, etc. 



> because it's not a little bit of information, it's quite a bit of information. I don't make premature analyses, but I know when I have enough data to spot a clear trend


Okay, so I'm asking you to explain the model/process you use to organise said data. 



> I'm an Ne dom darling :wink:


haha, don't get me started on that subject, sunshine! 

Not going to go into it too much now (it's irrelevant) but what you wrote above seems to fit Ni teritary/HA pretty well. I think you overestimate your ability to connect-the-dots (like ISxPs tend to do).



> critical thinking is well and good (I never dismissed the entirety of the conversation), but eternal skepticism (ie: thinking along the lines of "you can never _really know anything) is unproductive and, yes, something I can be a bit more dismissive of. additionally, yes, there is an outlying possibility that a type 9 would display those characteristics, but the likelihood that they would display ALL of them is several standard deviations from the mean, if you will. it's best to be open minded, but possibilities beyond a certain likelihood require a more compelling case to be considered_


Hang on, who said anything about "eternal scepticism"? It seems that you tend to be dismissive of comments that you perceive in this way, which is a subjective value judgement. Not everyone will agree with you on this one. I don't recall saying that "you can never really know anything", anyway - that's just a straw-man.

A Ne-dom who is dismissive of "possibilities" - _really?! _:tongue:


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

The Perfect Storm said:


> If someone told me that they thought I was type x because of my "energy" (without offering a clear logical explanation) I'd have a hard time not laughing in their face, lol. xD


He already clearly stated that he's had extended conversations with that other dude. With getting to know a person comes a better understanding of how they tick... especially when they're specifically discussing enneagram with each other. Swordsman has had opportunities to ask the dude very specific questions... questions that will aid him in giving the dude his opinion concerning the dude's type. There's nothing wrong with this, and this is how enneagram type is generally figured out. People ask themselves (or in this case, another person) the right questions in order to figure things out. 



> On a serious note, despite my facetiousness I do kind of understand what you're getting at here. However, my point still stands about personal projection/bias. It's important to analyse _why _it is that you understand and interpret information in certain way. After all, what we are talking about here is just pattern recognition, right? Those patterns can be interpreted in a number of different ways. It gets kinda confusing when people aren't speaking the same language. This is why I ask for clarification for what people mean when they use certain words, or phrases, etc.


I see what you mean here, and in a sense, I do completely agree. Behaviors can be interpreted in so many ways. It's not so much the behavior that will be indicative of what type you are, but rather WHY you are behaving the way you are that will be telling. What's going on under the surface that we can't see? <-- That's the question. But this is also why people ask each other questions when aiding one another in figuring this stuff out. Some of us can figure it out on our own and are naturally more self-aware than others. But some of us really aren't all that self-aware, and getting some assistance can be ideal. Again, I see nothing wrong with what Swordsman has done. 





> Okay, so I'm asking you to explain the model/process you use to organise said data.


I think he's been pretty straight-forward, and the answers he provided you the first time around are more than adequate in my personal opinion. 





> haha, don't get me started on that subject, sunshine!
> 
> Not going to go into it too much now (it's irrelevant) but what you wrote above seems to fit Ni teritary/HA pretty well. I think you overestimate your ability to connect-the-dots (like ISxPs tend to do).


Now this is truly ironic. You're taking your observations and your personal understanding of him and applying it to a theory, yet you've basically criticized him for doing the exact same thing. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but it's against PerC rules to give unsolicited opinions on somebody else's type.





> Hang on, who said anything about "eternal scepticism"? It seems that you tend to be dismissive of comments that you perceive in this way, which is a subjective value judgement. Not everyone will agree with you on this one. I don't recall saying that "you can never really know anything", anyway - that's just a straw-man.
> 
> A Ne-dom who is dismissive of "possibilities" - _really?! _:tongue:


Again, this is unsolicited personality typing, and it is against the rules. If you do it again, I'll have to report you.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> He already clearly stated that he's had extended conversations with that other dude. With getting to know a person comes a better understanding of how they tick... especially when they're specifically discussing enneagram with each other. Swordsman has had opportunities to ask the dude very specific questions... questions that will aid him in giving the dude his opinion concerning the dude's type. There's nothing wrong with this, and this is how enneagram type is generally figured out. People ask themselves (or in this case, another person) the right questions in order to figure things out.


Yes, and I'm saying that I personally find it difficult to understand how people can make judgements and type people like this (partly because I struggle to do so myself and also because of everything else about personal bias, etc, I've mentioned). This is why I asked him to explain his process to help me understand. 



> I see what you mean here, and in a sense, I do completely agree. Behaviors can be interpreted in so many ways. It's not so much the behavior that will be indicative of what type you are, but rather WHY you are behaving the way you are that will be telling. What's going on under the surface that we can't see? <-- That's the question. But this is also why people ask each other questions when aiding one another in figuring this stuff out. Some of us can figure it out on our own and are naturally more self-aware than others. But some of us really aren't all that self-aware, and getting some assistance can be ideal. Again, I see nothing wrong with what Swordsman has done.


Again, I made points and asked for clarification for the above reasons. 

Not sure where you are getting the idea that I'm saying he is "wrong" (never said that), I am merely trying to engage in a discussion about typing methods/processes. Expressing a difference in opinion is not the same as dismissing or invalidating the other persons point of view. 



> I think he's been pretty straight-forward, and the answers he provided you the first time around are more than adequate in my personal opinion.


With all due respect, your personal opinion does not invalidate my question. I'm entitled and allowed to request whatever information I want just as he is free to reject it. No boundaries have been crossed here.



> Now this is truly ironic. You're taking your observations and your personal understanding of him and applying it to a theory, yet you've basically criticized him for doing the exact same thing. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but it's against PerC rules to give unsolicited opinions on somebody else's type.


If you want to talk about my views on how to apply theories I think there is a big difference between how JCF/MBT/Socionics should be applied in comparison to Enneagram (I actually think it's much easier to apply the former as it is about organising much more "superficial" patterns as opposed to Enneagram, which seems to go much deeper than that). So, it's not really that "ironic" that my application of one completely different system is in opposition to how I think another should be applied.

Yeah, I'm aware its against the rules although I thought discussion of his type wasn't something he opposed (I've commented in a lot of threads made specifically for discussing SoMs type so it's not exactly unsolicited typing, although I admit it is not the purpose of this thread, so I'm happy to drop it).



> Again, this is unsolicited personality typing, and it is against the rules. If you do it again, I'll have to report you.


Refer to the above.


----------



## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

The Perfect Storm said:


> Yes, and I'm saying that I personally find it difficult to understand how people can make judgements and type people like this (partly because I struggle to do so myself and also because of everything else about personal bias, etc, I've mentioned). This is why I asked him to explain his process to help me understand.


Then clearly there is a misunderstanding here. I don't understand what you don't understand. What is missing for you in the explanation that both he and I have given? Is asking people questions and having them give answers and drawing conclusions based of off that not an adequate answer for you? Perhaps I'm over-estimating how much you know about the enneagram. Would you label your knowledge of enneagram as beginner, intermediate, or expert?



> Again, I made points and asked for clarification for the above reasons.


Again, there's clearly something that's causing a misunderstanding here.



> Not sure where you are getting the idea that I'm saying he is "wrong" (never said that), I am merely trying to engage in a discussion about typing methods/processes. Expressing a difference in opinion is not the same as dismissing or invalidating the other persons point of view.


Yes, I understand you're trying to understand, but what do you not understand about the answers that have already been given? Once more, there's a disconnect here, and I'm interested in figuring out what that might be.



> With all due respect, your personal opinion does not invalidate my question. I'm entitled and allowed to request whatever information I want just as he is free to reject it. No boundaries have been crossed here.


Annnnd again, there's a disconnect here.



> If you want to talk about my views on how to apply theories I think there is a big difference between how JCF/MBT/Socionics should be applied in comparison to Enneagram (I actually think it's much easier to apply the former as it is about organising much more "superficial" patterns as opposed to Enneagram, which seems to go much deeper than that). So, it's not really that "ironic" that my application of one completely different system is in opposition to how I think another should be applied.


I see what you're saying as enneagram does tend to be more detailed, but generally, the process people use for enneagram is the same process which is used in other typing theories. I don't understand why you think enneagram is so different from these other typing theories. Again, I suppose I have to call into question how much knowledge you have of the enneagram and how it, as a system, works. It's just like any other personality typing system in that you have to learn about it, draw your own conclusions about it, figure out how it applies to you, and come to a final typing conclusion. If you're a novice enneagram explorer, then I would be happy to direct you to some threads that can perhaps give you what you're looking for, which I'm assuming at this point is a detailed description of how the enneagram works (essentially breaking it down for you). 



> Yeah, I'm aware its against the rules although I thought discussion of his type wasn't something he opposed (I've commented in a lot of threads made specifically for discussing SoMs type so it's not exactly unsolicited typing, although I admit it is not the purpose of this thread, so I'm happy to drop it).


You're right. Generally, he doesn't care. But the fact that he doesn't care doesn't give you a green light to break the rules. Meh.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> Then clearly there is a misunderstanding here. I don't understand what you don't understand. What is missing for you in the explanation that both he and I have given? Is asking people questions and having them give answers and drawing conclusions based of off that not an adequate answer for you? Perhaps I'm over-estimating how much you know about the enneagram. Would you label your knowledge of enneagram as beginner, intermediate, or expert?


Not sure what I'm supposed to be misunderstanding here; just because I disagree or question an opinion doesn't mean I'm misunderstood, it just means I don't agree, or am yet to be convinced. Anyhow, I'll try and explain my perspective...

My opinion is that asking people questions and having them give answers is unreliable because, a) I don't see how this is enough information to form an accurate opinion (especially when looking at surface-level traits behaviours), and, b) when there is a resistance to examining personal biases, projections, etc, (which is kinda what I was getting at and precisely what I have been doing throughout this conversation). In response to me questioning this kind of typing process, @Swordsman of Mana said,



> it's not a little bit of information, it's quite a bit of information. I don't make premature analyses, but I know when I have enough data to spot a clear trend


At this point I asked him to explain this process in more detail. 



> Again, there's clearly something that's causing a misunderstanding here.


Are you misunderstanding something because I'm not, lol. xD



> Yes, I understand you're trying to understand, but what do you not understand about the answers that have already been given? Once more, there's a disconnect here, and I'm interested in figuring out what that might be


Explain what you mean by "disconnect" because, other than a difference in opinions, I don't see why this is an issue.



> Annnnd again, there's a disconnect here.


Not really. Your personal opinion wasn't really relevant at that point. Just because you found his answers adequate doesn't mean that I do. I'm my own person.

In any case, SoM can speak for himself. If he wants me to piss off he can just tell me and I'll happily apply, lol. If you have issues with how I interacted with him then that's a separate issue altogether and irrelevant to the discussion about Enneagram. 



> I see what you're saying as enneagram does tend to be more detailed, but generally, the process people use for enneagram is the same process which is used in other typing theories. I don't understand why you think enneagram is so different from these other typing theories. Again, I suppose I have to call into question how much knowledge you have of the enneagram and how it, as a system, works. It's just like any other personality typing system in that you have to learn about it, draw your own conclusions about it, figure out how it applies to you, and come to a final typing conclusion. If you're a novice enneagram explorer, then I would be happy to direct you to some threads that can perhaps give you what you're looking for, which I'm assuming at this point is a detailed description of how the enneagram works (essentially breaking it down for you).


I have many issues with popular approaches to Enneagram (I won't go into all of them now as, truthfully, my attention span is starting to fail me). I think a big part of my issue is that I think there is far too much of a focus on surface level behavioural traits as opposed to looking at internal motivations, as well as a more holistic and conceptually understanding of what each type is about (or "dilemma", whatever you want to call it). The way I question a certain method of typing is no different to how I try to apply critical thinking to all ideas/theories. In order to understand another perspective its important to ask questions. 

Honestly, labelling someone as either a "novice" or "expert" Enneagram explorer is subjective (as there seem to be multiple types of approaches and interpretations). To answer the question of where I fall on that spectrum, my answer would be that it depends on how you define "expert", "novice", etc, and what interpretation/understanding of Enneagram you are referring to. 



> You're right. Generally, he doesn't care. But the fact that he doesn't care doesn't give you a green light to break the rules. Meh.


I went with my judgement (I thought he'd be OK with it. *shrugs*)


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

The Perfect Storm said:


> Not sure what I'm supposed to be misunderstanding here; just because I disagree or question an opinion doesn't mean I'm misunderstood, it just means I don't agree, or am yet to be convinced. Anyhow, I'll try and explain my perspective..
> 
> My opinion is that asking people questions and having them give answers is unreliable because, a) I don't see how this is enough information to form an accurate opinion (especially when looking at surface-level traits behaviours), and, b) when there is a resistance to examining personal biases, projections, etc, (which is kinda what I was getting at and precisely what I have been doing throughout this conversation). In response to me questioning this kind of typing process, @_Swordsman of Mana_ said,
> 
> ...


Every response you've made is evidence that you're misunderstanding me. I'm trying to help you and level with you. I'm certainly not attacking you, but I am perceiving some defensiveness on your side which I think is totally uncalled for. I really am not understanding what it is you want. In fact, at this point, I think both of us are struggling to understand what the other isn't understanding. There is indeed some sort of disconnect here, and it's honestly just comical at this point xD

Now the part I did understand was the part I bolded. To that, my reply is this: you're right! There are A LOT of enneagram enthusiasts that put WAYYY too much focus on bull shit surface traits. Internal motivation... the reasons WHY we behave the way we do are what should be emphasized and talked about. I cannot say that I myself blame the tool for the way people are using it though. I think you're getting the wrong impression of the enneagram by watching the way some of the people around here are using it. Swordsman and I have actually clashed on this very topic before. I stand with you on this one. I think he sometimes tries to over-simplify the enneagram by putting too much focus on crappy surface behavior, but that's a conversation he and I have hashed out a couple of times already. He knows how I feel about it. 

Even then though, there's more to the enneagram that just motivations. It's a self-exploration tool that helps you delve much deeper into how you respond to the world, to stress, to emotions, and even to your own thoughts and fears. It's pretty incredible, but I can't say I blame you for being turned off by the people that put emphasis on crappy surface traits that literally ANYBODY can exhibit.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> Every response you've made is evidence that you're misunderstanding me. I'm trying to help you and level with you. I'm certainly not attacking you, but I am perceiving some defensiveness on your side which I think is totally uncalled for. I really am not understanding what it is you want. In fact, at this point, I think both of us are struggling to understand what the other isn't understanding. There is indeed some sort of disconnect here, and it's honestly just comical at this point xD
> 
> Now the part I did understand was the part I bolded. To that, my reply is this: you're right! There are A LOT of enneagram enthusiasts that put WAYYY too much focus on bull shit surface traits. Internal motivation... the reasons WHY we behave the way we do are what should be emphasized and talked about. I cannot say that I myself blame the tool for the way people are using it though. I think you're getting the wrong impression of the enneagram by watching the way some of the people around here are using it. Swordsman and I have actually clashed on this very topic before. I stand with you on this one. I think he sometimes tries to over-simplify the enneagram by putting too much focus on crappy surface behavior, but that's a conversation he and I have hashed out a couple of times already. He knows how I feel about it.
> 
> Even then though, there's more to the enneagram that just motivations. It's a self-exploration tool that helps you delve much deeper into how you respond to the world, to stress, to emotions, and even to your own thoughts and fears. It's pretty incredible, but I can't say I blame you for being turned off by the people that put emphasis on crappy surface traits that literally ANYBODY can exhibit.


LOL, aw man, what a way to waste an afternoon. I feel like a dog chasing my own fucking tail at this point. xD










I don't think you're attacking me, you got pissy because I broke a rule (which is fair enough, I guess). Honestly, half the problem is text-based communication I think.

Anyways,

I agree there was crossing of wires at some point and we do seem to be going round in pointless circles which is kinda amusing, lol. I think I misunderstood the part about me being misunderstood...which then lead to more confusion, LOL. At this point I'm inclined to say "who fucking cares" and be done with it. 

Basically, the rest of what you have said I completely agree with 100%.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

The Perfect Storm said:


> LOL, aw man, what a way to waste an afternoon. I feel like a dog chasing my own fucking tail at this point. xD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, I hope we have less confusing encounters in the future. Let's finalize this:


* *















"The End"


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@The Perfect Storm
your last response to me was a combination of red herring, obvious points I was already aware of and facetious condescension. I am not in the mood. try again


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_The Perfect Storm_
> your last response to me was a combination of red herring, obvious points I was already aware of and facetious condescension. I am not in the mood. try again


Yes I was being facetious (I admitted that). Not sure about the red herring part, but okay. *shrugs*

If you're not in the mood that's cool.


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## giraffegator (Dec 28, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Well, he's stopped calling and I think he forgot about me, so I guess crisis averted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad he's not bugging you any more! 

I'm no enneagram expert so take this with a large pinch of salt, but it sounds a bit fourish to me? Like feeling almost defective and unworthy?


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

sassafrassthelioness said:


> I'm glad he's not bugging you any more!
> 
> I'm no enneagram expert so take this with a large pinch of salt, but it sounds a bit fourish to me? Like feeling almost defective and unworthy?


I guess it does sound like that, I know it feels like that. As if it doesn't sound vaguely Fourish enough, I tried to put together this with my own sometimes-insane ambition and came up with the outlook: I will never be loved if I'm not somehow special, if I don't stand out. If I'm replacable or normal, no one will want anything to do with me, not for long (I was ruminating on this this morning, actually, in relation to how, biologically and statistically, love between people is nothing special, any partner becomes replacable if someone better comes along with a better combination of traits...I assume this goes for friendships as well as lovers). Current attitude towards it, though, is resignation. There really isn't much I can do about it, except maybe fix myself up and hope I get lucky. Sort of a Nineish reaction: batten down and numb out, until it stops hurting. Come to think of it, the concept of unconditional love (generally agreed to not exist except as an ideal) arouses similar fears, more Nine-likes ones. If love has conditions, I'm basically screwed, because I know I'll never be good enough to meet the right standards to keep someone around. 

Eek, I wanted to save the love stuff for the "What are you thinking about" thread. Eh, it'll survive here. 



I see you @_aurly_; and I know you thought I could actually be an image core. Sorry. :<


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

Reservation: I close my laptop whenever my boyfriend walks in *not* because I'm a Five and Fives are Secretive, but because I'm worried he'll find out how much time I spend doing nothing and force me to confront the extent to which I've neglected my actual work for months. Another vote for Nine, or a universal for procrastinating humans? If I'm a Nine, _why can't I relax_? If I'm a Five, why do I care what anyone thinks?

I'm so ridiculously image-focused. This would be so easy if I were competitive enough or hardworking enough to be a Three; I devote so much energy to covering up my failures, even from myself. Layers and layers of deceit. I do pursue the goal of "maximizing relaxation time and minimizing stress" with a three-ish intensity. I worked my butt off for six years for an advanced degree so I could get a cushy part-time job with benefits and spend afternoons on the porch, and now I'm not happy. Is there such a beast as a passive, doormat-ish, explosively lazy Three who hates conflict, competition, work, and self-assertion with a vengeance? I don't think that's a thing.

Also, to everyone involved in the Nine and image-type discussion: that was enlightening as hell.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I guess it does sound like that, I know it feels like that. As if it doesn't sound vaguely Fourish enough, I tried to put together this with my own sometimes-insane ambition and came up with the outlook: I will never be loved if I'm not somehow special, if I don't stand out. If I'm replacable or normal, no one will want anything to do with me, not for long (I was ruminating on this this morning, actually, in relation to how, biologically and statistically, love between people is nothing special, any partner becomes replacable if someone better comes along with a better combination of traits...I assume this goes for friendships as well as lovers). Current attitude towards it, though, is resignation. There really isn't much I can do about it, except maybe fix myself up and hope I get lucky. Sort of a Nineish reaction: batten down and numb out, until it stops hurting. Come to think of it, the concept of unconditional love (generally agreed to not exist except as an ideal) arouses similar fears, more Nine-likes ones. If love has conditions, I'm basically screwed, because I know I'll never be good enough to meet the right standards to keep someone around.
> 
> Eek, I wanted to save the love stuff for the "What are you thinking about" thread. Eh, it'll survive here.
> 
> ...


*chuckles*

Sounds like wanting _personal significance_ to me - type 4 again. And you want to be rescued too :O I wonder if 9s feel like that.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

aurly said:


> *chuckles*
> 
> Sounds like wanting _personal significance_ to me - type 4 again. And you want to be rescued too :O I wonder if 9s feel like that.


Four fix or a line to Three, I guess. Now I'm asking myself, "How long have I believed this? Have I always thought that I risk being ignored or - sorry for melodrama - abandoned if I don't stand out in some way?" 

I don't know about being _rescued_; and, as I look over what I wrote again, there's the Nineish fear of "separation and loss" - it's occurred to me before that I've kind of had a fair bit of those things in my life, and I've felt them keenly* so it's probably affected the way I relate to people and the idea of love.



*Well, sort of. I'm not deep-thinking at all. Witnessing death at a young age _should_ have given me some incredibly lucid, tragic awareness of mortality. All it really did was make me feel abandoned, I think, maybe instill a frustrated feeling of loss or having something taken away. Outwardly I "got over" the whole thing pretty quickly, moved on and accepted it with seeming ease. But no existential crises or anything like that until my late teens for totally unrelated reasons. The feelings I referenced were more from what I perceived as _emotional_ withdrawal, loss of support and shiz).


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Bathilda said:


> Reservation: I close my laptop whenever my boyfriend walks in *not* because I'm a Five and Fives are Secretive, but because I'm worried he'll find out how much time I spend doing nothing and force me to confront the extent to which I've neglected my actual work for months. Another vote for Nine, or a universal for procrastinating humans? If I'm a Nine, _why can't I relax_? If I'm a Five, why do I care what anyone thinks?
> 
> I'm so ridiculously image-focused. This would be so easy if I were competitive enough or hardworking enough to be a Three; I devote so much energy to covering up my failures, even from myself. Layers and layers of deceit. I do pursue the goal of "maximizing relaxation time and minimizing stress" with a three-ish intensity. I worked my butt off for six years for an advanced degree so I could get a cushy part-time job with benefits and spend afternoons on the porch, and now I'm not happy. Is there such a beast as a passive, doormat-ish, explosively lazy Three who hates conflict, competition, work, and self-assertion with a vengeance? I don't think that's a thing.
> 
> Also, to everyone involved in the Nine and image-type discussion: that was enlightening as hell.


Questions for you.

- When you say you're "doing nothing", what are you doing?
- Why don't you do your work?
- Is the lack of relaxation related to the procrastination somehow?

===

- Why do you feel the need to cover up your failures to that extent?
- Why do you hate conflict, competition, work and self-assertion?
- Why are you passive?
- What would make you happy?

===

You can be a Three without meeting that superficial image people tend to have of threes. That image comes from cultural and interpersonal assumptions, not from the core of what a three IS. You came closer to the core of three when you were talking about smoothing over failure with deceit, just requires some further investigation to see if that extends in the right way to match the motivation of that core.

Since an enneagram core is conceptual in this way, it can extend itself into enough different manifestations in a human being that there's plenty of room for threes to be those "negative" ways you mentioned. I just don't have enough info about you yet to know whether you'd be accurately typed at three.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Speaking of hiding, I do often like the idea of getting attention/input on my type, but when I do get it I usually end up feeling anxious and being avoidant. :frustrating:


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## LPtheBeastly (Jul 15, 2009)

When I get excited I feel like a silly ENTP. But because that's normal for INTPs, idk if it counts. I do wonder if certain circumstances can for you to be more introverted than you really are. The difference between being alone and being lonely. 

Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

Flatlander said:


> Questions for you.


Thank you very much for these! Answering them helped me think some things through. Does any of this suggest a direction?



> - When you say you're "doing nothing", what are you doing?


 Lately, I'm introspecting, reading about MBTI and the Enneagram, analyzing my behavior and experience, and trying to understand why I think and act the way I do. Previous procrastination episodes involve Wikipedia, learning languages irrelevant to my work, reading about fitness or diet or clothing and planning ways to make these areas of my life run more smoothly and maximize my chance of getting a job, or planning my novel, but the plans never amount to anything.



> - Why don't you do your work?


 I think I fear both success (because it entails taking on more responsibilities and more fear of failure) and failure. The problems I have to solve at work, while interesting, aren't as interesting as...well, my own mind. It's like I'm stuck facing inward and can't face the world until I know which direction to go in life, which path to take, who I am and who I should strive to be, _none of which is relevant to the things I need to do_



> - Is the lack of relaxation related to the procrastination somehow?


Absolutely. Since I was 16 or so, I've had immense trouble focusing on books or movies because I always felt I should be doing something more productive. But that voice isn't strong enough to actually affect my behavior, so it chatters in the back of my mind reminding me of all the things I'm not doing and all the things I could've achieved if only I'd worked harder or if I weren't so self-conscious. 
===



> - Why do you feel the need to cover up your failures to that extent?


When I say I 'don't do work', I mean I have a freelance job funded by grants, and I may go literally months without thinking about anything work-related, while getting paid anyway. Failing to cover up the extent of my procrastination would jeopardize my income and my reputation. [*Edit:* That's true, but what really scares me is disappointing people, especially my boyfriend, whose work-ethic I admire so much, and disappointing myself, because I know I can do better] Though among trusted colleagues I can admit it, and there's a kind of admiration for how 'balanced' my life is, which I cultivate. The expectation is that people in my field are cut-throat, and I get some social mileage out of looking relaxed--but I'm not relaxed. The procrastination is compulsive and I struggle with it (though not very hard).



> - Why do you hate conflict, competition, work and self-assertion?


Work I hate because it means I'm not doing what I want to do. Everything else...I feel more comfortable submitting. I genuinely feel my needs aren't as important, and I see dependence on anything external, such as prizes or getting your needs met through assertion, as weak. The strong person accepts what they have and demands nothing; weak people are aggressive and lack self-control. I feel threatened by them because they represent the inhuman, the barbaric. That's a little grandiose, but it's what I believe. 



> - Why are you passive?


See above. I may just be rationalizing my passivity, though. Conflict and self assertion make me feel like I'm mistreating others for the sake of some frivolous desire of mine. The fact that I was exposed to Buddhism and Stoicism very early in life may have affected this. I saw my parents (7 and 8) being slaves to material things and blind to the hurt they inflicted on other people (usually in the name of protecting me--they threw their money around to make sure I got special treatment everywhere and bragged about their 'golden child' and laughed when I objected that this hurt the other kids' feelings), and I didn't want to be like that. [EDIT: that sounded so spoiled. My parents were and are awesome, and always supported me no matter what bizarre thing I was into. I'm terrified of acting spoiled.]



> - What would make you happy?


I idealize the state of "flow." I'd just like to *really* enjoy and love what I have, in the moment, instead of pretending to be satisfied and beating myself up because I'm too scared to let myself love anything I might lose. I idealize total self-sufficiency but I know that happiness is in the present and in love.
===


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## giraffegator (Dec 28, 2014)

@Bathilda , if you are a three, since you are an INFP as well, I imagine you would look quite different from the stereotypical three because you value different things and you are approaching the core needs from a different cognitive standpoint.
Just a thought.


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## EndsOfTheEarth (Mar 14, 2015)

Okay, here goes. I've identified as a type 5 more often than not, briefly a 4 before going back to 5. But a lot of the things I think that suggest I'm a 5 have more to do with being sp/sx, which I do strongly identify with and doubt I am any other instinctual variant. Here's the reason's why I suspect I may not be a 5, but I'm open to being a 5 if that's what I truly am. 

- I love to research oh by golly yes. I will research a topic until I've lost interest in it entirely. But I have a sneaking suspicion that my researching has more to do with obsession than it does with a need to know how the world works. Let me explain. It's not always true that I research like the dickens before I take any action. I don't always feel like I need encyclopaedic knowledge of a topic before I can get on and do something. Frequently I jump into new projects with an alarming lack of research, I will skim over the subject to get the gist then dive right in and only go back to researching again if I get stuck. BUT.....if I'm really interested or passionate about something then my researching takes on a life of it's own. But the purpose isn't necessarily to find out information, it's more of an immersion in a topic that I feel passionate about because the act of immersion is just soothing and invigorating to me. Often this researching isn't about picking up nuances of a subject, it's just bathing in pictures, someone else's project without a lot of regard to details. I'm not often picking it apart, I'm just swimming in it, admiring it. 

- I live in a self made fortress of detachment. But I don't live a life of emotional detachment. I detach from other people but I am rarely detached from my inner feelings which tend to run torrid even at the best of times. My constant daydreaming has more to do with how I feel about things than anything else and I love to just go over a scenario in my head for the feelings it gives me. Whenever I end up in a heap it's depression caused by detachment either from my self or another person that has put me there. And I'm rarely shocked how self-pitying emo I can be for very long periods of time. 

- Authenticity is a core value of mine. Well okay that could be a core value of anyone really, who doesn't want to be true to themselves? But the search for self, for authenticity is a constant theme in my life. I would never say take a job for money alone, it has to express me on some level. Part of the reason I've been unable to leave my current job has been...1. Fear of instability since every other aspect of my life is unstable at the moment. 2. Not wanting to let go of the specialness this job carries with it. Even though I'm pretty sure the specialness I ascribe to it probably only exists in my head. I just can't seem to settle for an ordinary, boring office job like everyone else. My life has to be filled with more colour and interest than that. 

So I don't know, I'm becoming less certain in my idea that I'm a core 5. and then there's this. 
*
Self Preservation Five - ** (Castle):*The most avoidant Fives. Shy, socially awkward, create private space because of inability to confront, don't want to show non-social side; economy equals independence. Feelings of scarcity underlie pride in doing with very little. Abstinence frees from personal entanglements required by getting more.​*At best* shy, thoughtful, intellectual, observer/theorizers who offer strategic models
*At worst* avoidant, socially awkward, rebellious, cruel, misanthropic, disdainful of ordinary mortals

​*Self Preservation Four - **(Dauntless):*More self-sacrificing, almost a suicidal edge (life on the edge brings meaning to an otherwise mundane life). More self-contained than other Fours; denial of envy and fear of dependency lead to counter-dependency, autonomy. Instead of demanding from the outside world, they demand from themselves, don't play the victim. More a noble martyr. Can wreck what they get in order to stay on the edge.
*At best* systemically focused, advocate of risk/change, tenacious, self-demanding
*At worst* self-sacrificing, too autonomous, self-critical/unsure​
Being honest now, I actually sound a lot more like the four than the five, especially when I take in the At Worst statements. Fear of dependency is actually something I had an epiphany about this morning. I fear losing my independance and I strongly identify with the 'wrecking things' in order to throw life into chaos. That's been a huge pattern in my life, I'm always good in a crisis, not so much at regular life.

And...._Oh dear God, now this is just embarrassing. _:blushed:

Most types have an idealized self-image. The one that plagues the Self-Preservation Four is immortality. No matter what chances I take, I won't get hurt. I'm invulnerable. But if I do die, then you will miss me terribly, probably erect a monument and I will live on in the hearts and minds of millions. Shakespeare, a Four, told the lady of his affections that his poetry would confer immortality on her. But Self-Preservation Fours confer it on themselves. There must be a way around death.

Depression is one way of anticipating death. If I rehearse death through feeling dead, then I will be able to handle it when it really happens. If I can go to the depths and deaths of depression and recover, I'll get the hang of it so when I die... And during the process, at least I'm involved in something important, something of a life-and-death issue. And if I'm involved in this important struggle, I certainly am not just numbly going through life. After all, Thoreau was right, _"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation."
_
And now that I've found this, I have to give it serious consideration. It seems to be a biography of a sorts.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...-description-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


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## Copper North (Mar 18, 2015)

I've tested repeatedly as a 9-2-5, but there are the odd days where I act out more 2-ish, and once in a while, 5-ish as a primary.

I had thought it would be set in stone, but my moods and outlook will often send the compass back into a new direction from time to time.


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Copper North said:


> I've tested repeatedly as a 9-2-5, but there are the odd days where I act out more 2-ish, and once in a while, 5-ish as a primary.
> 
> I had thought it would be set in stone, but my moods and outlook will often send the compass back into a new direction from time to time.


I have similar reservations. My 3-fix and 9-fix both feel way too strong to not be core. It's like I'm primarily 7 35% of the time, primarily 3 33% of the time, and primarily 9 32% of the time, and I don't think it's because of any flawed understanding of myself or the theory. I also strongly identify with 6, but I'm pretty sure it's my wing and 3 and 9 both have a line to 6.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

InSolitude said:


> advocate of risk/change


This one's in my experience a good way to tell the difference. Fives seem very risk averse, in everything. Ask a five to design some hardware and he'll pick the safest, 40-year old components to do it with. Reasoning being that if it's been around for that long, it's safe to use for another X years. He's still running Windows XP or 95 on his PC as well, and probably doesn't have a smartphone yet. Fours are much more likely to try new things and take risks, or encourage it in others.

Another is when they're alone. Four tends to wish for company, while Five is usually grateful for the lack of interruptions.

Do you recognize yourself in these? I may have slightly exaggerated so don't take things too literally


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## EndsOfTheEarth (Mar 14, 2015)

aurly said:


> This one's in my experience a good way to tell the difference. Fives seem very risk averse, in everything. Ask a five to design some hardware and he'll pick the safest, 40-year old components to do it with. Reasoning being that if it's been around for that long, it's safe to use for another X years. He's still running Windows XP or 95 on his PC as well, and probably doesn't have a smartphone yet. Fours are much more likely to try new things and take risks, or encourage it in others.
> 
> Another is when they're alone. Four tends to wish for company, while Five is usually grateful for the lack of interruptions.
> 
> Do you recognize yourself in these? I may have slightly exaggerated so don't take things too literally


Not literally I think. I don't wish for company, I prefer solitude. But I am a risk taker in that I periodically throw away a long standing career to try something new, often doing so with little preparation ahead of time. It's rare that I will secure a new job before leaving one behind. I've often moved to cities I've never even visited and didn't even secure accomodation there before I turned up to start a new life. 

I don't cling to careers and security of pay packets in the manner most people do and eskew long term commitments like loans, contracts and permanent relationships. I easily jump between industries seeing no barrier to entry even if I have no direct experience in the kind of work I seek. Somehow I always get a foot in the door and am able to leverage what I've got to advantage. 

I do use old technology but it's not hopelessly so. My iPhone is only 1 iteration behind and that's because I'm a miser and I always buy slightly off the leading edge because it's significantly cheaper to purchase once it's no longer the hot new thing.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

InSolitude said:


> if I'm really interested or passionate about something then my researching takes on a life of it's own. But the purpose isn't necessarily to find out information, it's more of an immersion in a topic that I feel passionate about because the act of immersion is just soothing and invigorating to me.
> 
> I love to research oh by golly yes. I will research a topic until I've lost interest in it entirely.
> 
> ...


Have you considered 7w8? I know the stereotypical type 7 description is of someone who's gregarious, fun-loving, and the life of the party but type 7 can be introverted too (especially social-last). Type 7 also has a connection to type 4 that's not apparent on the symbol. There can be a strong individualism with type 7 as well. 

I'm not saying you are a type 7. I'm just putting that out there as a consideration.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> Have you considered 7w8? I know the stereotypical type 7 description is of someone who's gregarious, fun-loving, and the life of the party but type 7 can be introverted too (especially social-last). Type 7 also has a connection to type 4 that's not apparent on the symbol. There can be a strong individualism with type 7 as well.
> 
> I'm not saying you are a type 7. I'm just putting that out there as a consideration.


I don't know how this connection works, but I do know that 4 and 7 have a lot in common and 7s do frequently mistype as 4s (I haven't seen the other way around but I'm sure that happens too). I agree it's worth taking a serious look at this type, @InSolitude .


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

aurly said:


> I don't know how this connection works, but I do know that 4 and 7 have a lot in common


They're both self-referencing looking for self-fulfillment. It's just that they primarily use different centers to do so - type 7 with the thinking center (seeks what interests them mentally) and type 4 with the feeling center (seeks what they resonate with emotionally).


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## EndsOfTheEarth (Mar 14, 2015)

--


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

@aurly--thanks for the thread!

My trouble is that I relate to all three styles in different circumstances. Of course I need to feel like someone acknowledges my emotions or my grievances when I'm upset...but I'm definitely the stonewaller. The more upset I am, the colder I get. In an argument with my boyfriend recently, he was explaining his side and all I could say was, "Ok. Mmhmm. Ok," with a blank look. He said he just wanted a reaction from me. I might be crying, but my voice will be flat, and I want to solve the problem. I always thought that was competence--and I *definitely* have more issues with competence than anything else--but maybe it's a kind of reactivity. My 3w4 ex complained constantly because I fought "like a robot," and I got called robotic a lot as a kid. In professional or academic situations I take criticism well and I handle arguments very calmly with an eye toward solving the problem.

The flip side of this is that, because my signs of anger are so subtle, I overreact to very slight changes in tone or body language from others, because that tone, for me, would indicate intense fury. This causes serious problems in places like New York, where the tone is very direct. 

I definitely relate to the 'reactive withdrawing' that @sassafrassthelioness quoted. If I'm upset, I get very terse and short. If the other person notices and asks me what's wrong, they "win." If I think anyone is mad at _me_, I will be extremely reactive--curling up into a ball, crying, saying *absolutely anything* to deflect the anger. If my boyfriend is upset about something at work and he's being short with me, he has to tell me not to "freak out," because I cannot function, I can't think about anything other than why he's upset and whether it's at me and how I will have to_ fix my entire personality_ to ensure this never happens again. So in that sense, reactive--but also competence, since the idea is that I caused the problem, and I need to understand what their problem is so that I can fix it. It's not about mirroring.

On the other hand, for work problems or things that require action, I'll be positive. If someone nags me about doing something, I'll say, "Oh, that's not a problem, I can register my car next week," even if I don't intend to. 
@mariahj A lot to think about in these posts. My first instinct is that Katniss is way too practical for us to be the same type. She's all about establishing objectives and acting. If I were in that situation, I'd be wondering about the moral implications of killing someone under duress, what my life really meant, whether there was any nobility or beauty in dying for this cause, etc. The blasé way she just accepts things is crazy to me. I withdraw into literal fantasy worlds and do the someday-novelist thing, but I spend most of the time planning the novel and researching publishers and agents instead of actually writing (I'm also considering 3). I also plan for how to avoid being unemployed, how to live off the land if I can't get a job, how I'll deal with my parents' deaths, how I'll prevent cancer and alzheimers, how at risk I am for postpartum depression if I ever have kids...and I thought I should at least consider Six, since those are kind of sixish things to worry about.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

sassafrassthelioness said:


> From that reactive types thread:
> 
> "For Type Four, Russ offers the example of a young girl who, during a disagreement with her parents, dramatically storms out of the room and crawls beneath her bed to hide. Unlike a Five child, the young Four girl not genuinely want to be left alone. She stormed out of the room to see if her parents cared enough about her to chase after her. She was testing them. That’s what it means to be “reactive” in an enneagrammatic sense."
> 
> ...



Huh. Maybe I am a 4-fixer. That would give me double-reactivity in my tritype and based on this kind of description, I'm reactive as heck. I do that kind of testing stuff all the time and only barely even realize it. :/


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## mariahj (May 10, 2015)

Bathilda said:


> My first instinct is that Katniss is way too practical for us to be the same type. She's all about establishing objectives and acting. If I were in that situation, I'd be wondering about the moral implications of killing someone under duress, what my life really meant, whether there was any nobility or beauty in dying for this cause, etc. The blasé way she just accepts things is crazy to me. I withdraw into literal fantasy worlds and do the someday-novelist thing, but I spend most of the time planning the novel and researching publishers and agents instead of actually writing (I'm also considering 3). I also plan for how to avoid being unemployed, how to live off the land if I can't get a job, how I'll deal with my parents' deaths, how I'll prevent cancer and alzheimers, how at risk I am for postpartum depression if I ever have kids...and I thought I should at least consider Six, since those are kind of sixish things to worry about.


i wouldn't necessarily say those are fundamentally Sixish worries. i know a Five whose parents died and left him a considerable inheritance, so he microplanned the rest of his life (down to using his knowledge to avoid needing electricity, sewer, doctors, etc.) so he can live off that money and just sit at the local cybercafe answering people's questions. he's got an important social niche there; they call him Encyclopedia. it's pretty hilariously awesome.

everything you described with the stonewalling is like textbook 5 or at least competency triad. you might be onto something interesting with considering 3. what else makes you think that? & out of curiosity, what originally lead you to believe you have a 4 wing?


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

aurly said:


> This one's in my experience a good way to tell the difference. Fives seem very risk averse, in everything. Ask a five to design some hardware and he'll pick the safest, 40-year old components to do it with. Reasoning being that if it's been around for that long, it's safe to use for another X years. He's still running Windows XP or 95 on his PC as well, and probably doesn't have a smartphone yet. Fours are much more likely to try new things and take risks, or encourage it in others.
> 
> Another is when they're alone. Four tends to wish for company, while Five is usually grateful for the lack of interruptions.
> 
> Do you recognize yourself in these? I may have slightly exaggerated so don't take things too literally


How did you tell those people who were risk averse were 5s and not some other type? How do you know the reason you are implicitly attributing to their choices is correct? Is it possible they have different cognitive types from myself? I'm an Ni type, while I was thinking if this is 5, it would really only pertain to an Si dominant, which would explain why their mental domains are different, and it wouldn't necessarily be because these are safer choices, but because they're the ones the 5 is personally stuck to via their experience - they understand best how they work.

I'm a 5 and I'm not like this at all with a lot of material things. I was somewhat slow to update to a smartphone because I liked my flip phone (I used to love that I could import chiptunes for ringtones on that thing, and when I finally upgraded to a Samsung Captivate Glide I couldn't!), but when it comes to computers I want newer hardware and software that can run the things I'm interested in. I understand how these things work in general and can learn to navigate new ones because I've ingrained the foundational concepts and systems, therefore I have no problems updating to newer systems and software. 

I also have no problem swapping out kitchenware, or most nontechnical material things. I wasn't the type to have lucky pencils in school.

You could argue I've been like that about concepts, though. When I'm first learning about something, my perspective will warp until I feel like I completely get it. That constitutes a mentally sturdy understanding, which is unlikely to change until something seriously flips it, and will just continue to get more in depth and/or continually applied to the new situations I encounter.

I'm also more retentive of my data, since a lot of that is my intellectual property. But that doesn't really come with an aversion to using password-protected cloud servers run by vendors with best practices.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Flatlander said:


> How did you tell those people who were risk averse were 5s and not some other type?


By watching one disintegrate badly >_< 
Some I'm less than 101% sure of. I've seen various literature mention this trait... 5s tend to think strategically, and play things safe. 4s can sometimes be impulsive, turn the brain off and just go. (not all the time, don't worry )

Thanks for your input!


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

mariahj said:


> i wouldn't necessarily say those are fundamentally Sixish worries. i know a Five whose parents died and left him a considerable inheritance, so he microplanned the rest of his life (down to using his knowledge to avoid needing electricity, sewer, doctors, etc.) so he can live off that money and just sit at the local cybercafe answering people's questions. he's got an important social niche there; they call him Encyclopedia. it's pretty hilariously awesome.
> 
> everything you described with the stonewalling is like textbook 5 or at least competency triad. you might be onto something interesting with considering 3. what else makes you think that? & out of curiosity, what originally lead you to believe you have a 4 wing?


Your friend is my hero. Mad props.

When I first came across triads, I knew I had to be competency; so many of my problems come from knowing what I'm supposed to do and fearing what happens when I fail, causing me to not do it. I'm considering 3 because of the intense focus on how I present myself to others--though I'm still awkward, but so are lots if 3s I know. It's not an exaggeration to say the core conflict in my personality is between a superego that demands certain things, and a complete aversion to hard work, causing me to spend huge amounts of effort covering up (I.e, lying) the fact that I didn't do whatever I was supposed to do, or that I didn't do it right. I work out ways to do the least work and still come out looking good. Style over substance gets you far. I relate to the deceit and I the image focus of 3, I just don't value external achievements and I don't work hard. I value leisure (9), security so I don't have to worry (6), and independence from a world that sucks up resources (5...though I really like humans a lot more than the 5s I know).

I picked 5w4 because descriptions put 5w6 as the robotic variant of 5 focused on the external world, the researcher with no imagination. I value beauty above all else, I'm pathologically introspective, creativity is the trait I value most in myself, I've got a nasty case of envy, and I relate a lot to social 4 shame. 6 was all about working hard and being honest. It's true I don't value authenticity, but I don't really value loyalty either....dang, I sound like a terrible person. I'm actually very responsible and loving, just not especially self-disciplined.


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## mariahj (May 10, 2015)

@Bathilda i do _not_ think you're a 3, but you've got an interesting connection to it and i don't think it's just a trifix. personally i kinda get 9 from you. maybe like a very intelligent/intellectual so/sp 9w1/3/5 or 6 with particularly tumultuous patterns of integration?

how far have you gone into 5/9 disambiguation literature?

the only thing that doesn't suggest 9 is that you're pathologically introspective. what does that look like? is it primarily a problem-solving process (like how you said if someone doesn't respond well to something you did, you want to reinvent your whole personality)? do you enjoy it or is it uncomfortable?

what do you do when you're avoiding work?

whatever type you sound like, you don't sound like a terrible person. lol. you sound human.

are there any other underlying things you're dealing with that might skew the behaviors of your type? (for example, serious depression would explain why a 3 might have an aversion to hard work...)


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

@mariahj

Thanks. Like, seriously, thank you for all the thought you put into these questions. 3 was a longshot, so it's good to get some confirmation! 

I'm pretty sure I've read everything available online on 5/9. If we go with Naranjo's descriptions, I'm unquestionably a Five, because of the way he actually highlights emotional sensitivity in the Five and its effects on relationships, and because he explicitly says the Nine is an extrovert (in the sense of outward-focused) falling asleep to inner experience. I don't do that; my inner experience is pretty much *all* I think about. I enjoy introspection--I'd even call it an addiction. It's what I do instead of working (though my boyfriend very helpfully pointed out that I do get paid to think...I just have to write it down, and I shouldn't be so hard on myself for thinking).

The problem with 5/9 is that Five descriptions emphasize how Fives act when they're alone, and what they think about *things.* Some of them do draw out the Five's problems with anxiety and insecurity, and even envy (I think the one on Typewatch does this well), but usually it's just KNOWLEDGE ALL TEH TIME. Nine descriptions emphasize how Nines act in relationships, how they let others walk over them, and either flat-out call them stupid or say something about using imagination to "escape their inner development". I'm a Five when alone and a Nine with other people. So I identify as Five...but I see a lot of myself in Nine, too. I don't really see myself at all in Six, but those descriptions actually describe anxiety and insecurity in a way that others don't, as though only 6s can be insecure. No question I *look* like a Nine or a very, very phobic sp6. 

As for external circumstances, since I got to grad school I haven't been the smartest kid in the room. A lot of my procrastination has to do with being able to tell myself, "I didn't fail. I just didn't try as hard as everyone else. If I'd tried harder, I would've been the best, but I have better things to do than spend ten hours preparing for a seminar." As long as that book isn't written yet, it's the Best Book Ever, and I can feel secure in my delusions of genius I'm also terrified of not getting a job this year. But I've heard Nines express similar things! And I might just be rationalizing my lack of energy. 

Thinking about taking a break from analyzing endlessly and trying to work on planning, action--all the things both Fives and Nines need to work on (and Sixes. Could still be a Six).


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Bathilda said:


> @_mariahj_
> 
> Thanks. Like, seriously, thank you for all the thought you put into these questions. 3 was a longshot, so it's good to get some confirmation!
> 
> ...


The real distinction between these two is not to be found in the type of action they take, because they can seem to take the same type of action in general (i.e. withdrawing from people) and really be doing it toward wildly different ends.

The five, as a mind type based around avarice, tends to be focused around mental content, especially as a way to come to terms with the world. The nine, as a gut type based around sloth, tends to be focused around its efforts and energy themselves - the way I see it their focus provides them a way to navigate their existence in the world without having to actually have as much presence. The nine's real disconnect is with heart, which effectively means the nine will tend to lack in areas where it would need to put its personal effort into things, while the five's disconnect with gut will mean that while the five may put all the effort in the world into maintaining what's up in its brain, it will not tend to take the step to reach out with that into the world.

If school itself doesn't contribute to the mental content the five values, by the way, that's not where the mental effort will go. For me the question then becomes why school even came up in your thought process if it isn't something you cared about, but that is a finer detail.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Bathilda said:


> I'm pretty sure I've read everything available online on 5/9. If we go with Naranjo's descriptions, I'm unquestionably a Five, because of the way he actually highlights emotional sensitivity in the Five and its effects on relationships, and because he explicitly says the Nine is an extrovert (in the sense of outward-focused) falling asleep to inner experience. I don't do that; my inner experience is pretty much *all* I think about. I enjoy introspection--I'd even call it an addiction. It's what I do instead of working (though my boyfriend very helpfully pointed out that I do get paid to think...I just have to write it down, and I shouldn't be so hard on myself for thinking).


What Naranjo means by "loss of interiority" and "aversion to psychological exploration" isn't exactly the same as extraversion or even a lack of introspection. It's something much more subtle and hard to put into words. 

I spend nearly all my time introspecting and desire to know all there is to know about me. So of course I couldn't relate at all to a lack of inwardness or to self-forgetting at first. The thing is, Nines can have a tendency to introspect on the "shell" and not the real self. It's not something they do on purpose, more that they don't realize the shell isn't the self, that there are more feelings there that are hidden from consciousness. What happens is that Nines to some degree habitually neglect to feel their inner struggles and desires, so these fall away into the unconscious.

The result of this is a sort of complacency, a premature contentedness. Not as in actual happiness but believing one doesn't desire anything else beyond what one has. The Nine might look inward but find no desire, because that desire had already slipped away into the unconscious out of neglect to be deeply present.


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

Flatlander said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does this distinction look like when the areas the Nine values are mental? The Nines over on the board here seem to put immense personal effort into, say, learning or making up imaginary worlds, which Fives also do. How is it possible to distinguish a Five's mental effort from a Nine's lack thereof? What's the standard there? This becomes more complicated if the Five might be in the lower levels, scattered like Seven. Or are you saying that a Nine will put in effort inversely proportional to the amount that his or her passions are engaged, from the heart center?

School came up because I do value it, or at least I value the academic lifestyle that school allows me to preserve. I tell myself that I have better things to do, that I value "work-life balance"--but that's an image I hold up to protect myself if I fail. I feel exhausted having my competence on the line every time I open my mouth, constantly having to ask name-dropping, brilliant-sounding questions about other peoples' work in public, when I'd prefer to be left alone to work on my own things. Academia I value; its the I'm-smarter-than-you game I can't stand, and it's easier to look at the workaholics with disdain than it is to actually become a workaholic. But if I don't win that game, I'm at the mercy of a 9-to-5 job, and I don't have enough endurance for that world. That may not be relevant for typing, but perhaps?
@Recede I got "extrovert" from this Naranjo passage in this thread, but I agree the term is confusing:


* *






> V/IX: It is possible to confuse these characters, for, in spite of the contrast between the hypersensitive introvert and the “undersensitive” extrovert, in both we may speak of resignation and self-forgetting. The difference is that between a resignation away from people (isolation) and a resignation with participation (contactfulness) which implies the contrast between a non-generous and an abnegated characteristic, respectively. Most characteristic, however, is the contrast between generosity of E IX and the limited availability, cooperation and support volunteered by E V.








> The result of this is a sort of complacency, a premature contentedness. Not as in actual happiness but believing one doesn't desire anything else beyond what one has. The Nine might look inward but find no desire, because that desire had already slipped away into the unconscious out of neglect to be deeply present.


Thank you for this. What about desires you know you have, but they seem like too much trouble, or you can't get over a sense of pointlessness or cynicism about actually pursuing them? This seems to fit exactly with what Flatlander is saying about lack of personal effort vs. fear of outwardness...but I've heard many Nines say they do have desires, they just don't feel like it's worth it to go after them. This is something I relate to. As soon as anything requires action in the world, it suddenly seems like too much trouble and I can think of a thousand reasons why I'm better off not doing it, or not putting my ideas out there.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

@Bathilda

I don't have a lot of time right now to explain everything I'm thinking, but suffice to say nines have minds too. The "effort" thing is referring to putting it in where it would most be needed to make a step forward in the nine's world and be something - so it depends most on what the nine is already at peace with in their life and what they are not. 

Bah I'll come back to this later.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Bathilda said:


> This seems to fit exactly with what Flatlander is saying about lack of personal effort vs. fear of outwardness...but I've heard many Nines say they do have desires, they just don't feel like it's worth it to go after them.


Hm, I can try to do this to some degree, or at least something similar, as most things seems so unattainable/beyond my reach. Like a sour grapes kind of thing. Of course, it's not very genuine.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Bathilda said:


> What does this distinction look like when the areas the Nine values are mental? The Nines over on the board here seem to put immense personal effort into, say, learning or making up imaginary worlds, which Fives also do. How is it possible to distinguish a Five's mental effort from a Nine's lack thereof? What's the standard there? This becomes more complicated if the Five might be in the lower levels, scattered like Seven. Or are you saying that a Nine will put in effort inversely proportional to the amount that his or her passions are engaged, from the heart center?


At average levels, there may be no noticeable difference and many Nines will identify with being people who think a lot, much like Fives. But at severely unhealthy levels, there's an immense difference. Unhealthy Nines start to become internally vacant, dissociated empty shells, while unhealthy Fives remain intensely identified with the mind to the point of developing weird perceptions, paranoia, and eventually psychosis. 



> @_Recede_ I got "extrovert" from this Naranjo passage in this thread, but I agree the term is confusing:





> V/IX: It is possible to confuse these characters, for, in spite of the contrast between the hypersensitive introvert and the “undersensitive” extrovert, in both we may speak of resignation and self-forgetting. The difference is that between a resignation away from people (isolation) and a resignation with participation (contactfulness) which implies the contrast between a non-generous and an abnegated characteristic, respectively. Most characteristic, however, is the contrast between generosity of E IX and the limited availability, cooperation and support volunteered by E V.


Well, we know many Nines are introverted, so I find it rather odd that Naranjo made that statement. I also disagree with the participation part. It's as if Naranjo described only one type of Nine rather than the whole spectrum, which is why I think it's best to mainly pay attention to the parts where he describes the passions. For the record, I'm as solitary and isolated as can be. 



> Thank you for this. What about desires you know you have, but they seem like too much trouble, or you can't get over a sense of pointlessness or cynicism about actually pursuing them? This seems to fit exactly with what Flatlander is saying about lack of personal effort vs. fear of outwardness...but I've heard many Nines say they do have desires, they just don't feel like it's worth it to go after them. This is something I relate to. As soon as anything requires action in the world, it suddenly seems like too much trouble and I can think of a thousand reasons why I'm better off not doing it, or not putting my ideas out there.


A lot of people describe a conscious process of feeling that things aren't worth the effort. And although it can overlap, I wouldn't necessarily consider that Sloth in all cases, because in order for something to be an enneagram passion it would probably have to be an automatic, unconscious process which is a deeply ingrained part of the ego structure and not merely a temporary feeling or conscious focus.

Everyone occasionally feels that something is pointless. Or many things, even. I'm thinking if this kind of cynicism is the only evidence of Sloth, it may not be enough. Because there's more to it than that, it's more specific. Sloth is a process that has the potential to ultimately lead to _vacancy_, whereas cynicism and lack of motivation may never get one there. 

Sometimes Sloth can take the form of cynicism and finding things pointless. But most of the time one isn't even aware of anything being wrong. Cynicism in the Nine would more likely be a temporary phase in which the frustration is eventually forgotten. More often, the Nine might just be going about their life, with the desire for something more never coming to mind. Do you see what I mean? Sloth generally isn't a conscious devaluing of action, it's a loss of interiority, as Naranjo put it: "a loss of the sense of being to the point of not even knowing the difference."


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Recede said:


> A lot of people describe a conscious process of feeling that things aren't worth the effort. And although it can overlap, I wouldn't necessarily consider that Sloth in all cases, because in order for something to be an enneagram passion it would probably have to be an automatic, unconscious process which is a deeply ingrained part of the ego structure and not merely a temporary feeling or conscious focus.
> 
> Everyone occasionally feels that something is pointless. Or many things, even. I'm thinking if this kind of cynicism is the only evidence of Sloth, it may not be enough. Because there's more to it than that, it's more specific. Sloth is a process that has the potential to ultimately lead to _vacancy_, whereas cynicism and lack of motivation may never get one there.
> 
> Sometimes Sloth can take the form of cynicism and finding things pointless. But most of the time one isn't even aware of anything being wrong. Cynicism in the Nine would more likely be a temporary phase in which the frustration is eventually forgotten. More often, the Nine might just be going about their life, with the desire for something more never coming to mind. Do you see what I mean? Sloth generally isn't a conscious devaluing of action, it's a loss of interiority, as Naranjo put it: "a loss of the sense of being to the point of not even knowing the difference."


This whole post is great, but one thing piqued my interest: what is "vacancy" supposed to be like? What is it, I guess? It never seems clear in literature just _what_ this "loss of interiority" Nine's are supposed to experience is. It's not necessarily physical laziness, it's not a feeling of pointlessness or meaninglessness, it's not lack of introspection...is it lack of desire? Dissociation from it? Not acknowledging needs? I can never quite tell.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Currently typing as a 5w6. If I'm not a 3w4, I think the two most likely alternative types for me are 5w6 and 6w5. I'm leaning towards the former.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

I feel like I'm too ambitious and assertive to be a 9w8


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Fern said:


> I feel like I'm too ambitious and assertive to be a 9w8


I wonder if you're a 2?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> This whole post is great, but one thing piqued my interest: what is "vacancy" supposed to be like? What is it, I guess? It never seems clear in literature just _what_ this "loss of interiority" Nine's are supposed to experience is. It's not necessarily physical laziness, it's not a feeling of pointlessness or meaninglessness, it's not lack of introspection...is it lack of desire? Dissociation from it? Not acknowledging needs? I can never quite tell.


I can't speak for all Nines as everyone experiences the type a bit differently, but for me it is a lack of desires. I also remember Dying Acedia when he was active in the past describing it this way as well. 

I think this quote from Naranjo is relevant: _"Ennea-type IX is not only one who has not learned to love himself or herself as a consequence of love deprivation, but also one who forgets his love frustration through a sort of psychological pachydermism, an over-simplification, a psychological amputation that makes him the least sensitive and the most stoic of characters." _

There are three parts to this quote: 1) love deprivation, 2) forgetting frustration, and 3) stoic character. These are essentially the origin, process, and consequence of Sloth. I think it's also important to see Sloth as an internal process and not a personality portrait, because Nines are not inherently stoic or unfeeling but rather their habit of self-forgetting dampens their inner life so they feel less than they otherwise would. It's relative to the same person, not necessarily to people in general. Sloth also varies in degree across the lifetime of the Nine. Healthy Nines will be less Slothful and unhealthy Nines will be more Slothful. 

That's why I can't really give you an all-encompassing portrait description of what it is like it have the passion of Sloth, and "vacancy". It varies both between individuals and within individuals across time. But I can try to describe what I experience.

I spend quite a lot of time introspecting, looking for what it is that defines my existence, what truly matters to me and what I really want in life. What it all comes down to every time is one word: 'Nothingness'. On the surface I might "want" something, but I don't _truly _desire anything at all. I also experience myself to be empty--what is left when absolutely nothing is desired, when nothing in the world is of any real interest? I am Nothingness, and so is the world. Nothing exists. I call this the Void. 

Most of the time the Void is unconscious, but occasionally it comes to the foreground. The closer the Void comes, the more the world shrinks. Sometimes the Void is painful, but it can also be peaceful. There's a tranquility about it, like looking out at the vast emptiness of the sea.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

@ScientiaOmnisEst

An example of very severe "vacancy": 



> "Often observed as simply staring off into space, depersonalized schizoids seem dreamy and distant, as if they were contemplating some peaceful vision that draws them more and more away from the everyday existence of the mundane world. Like all schizoids, they are extremely inattentive and disengaged from the affairs of life. More than most, however, depersonalized schizoids have deteriorated into obliviousness. Although they appear preoccupied internally with something substantive, they are in fact preoccupied with nothing at all. Rather, their detachment takes a peculiar, schizotypal-like form: These schizoids feel like disembodied observers viewing themselves from the outside, detached not only from the real world but also from their own thoughts and feelings, from their imagination and fantasies, and from their own corporeal bodies, as well. Focused neither internally nor externally, they possess an ethereal attitude and only a residual physical presence. Whereas the basic schizoid pattern is best described as cognitively vacant, depersonalized schizoids seem cognitively absent." - Personality Disorders in Modern Life, Theodore Millon


Very unhealthy Nines are described as "vacant", "fragmenting into subpersonalities", "empty shells", "catatonic", "a dream without a dreamer", "blank and depersonalized", "as if in amnesia" (R&H). They retreat from both the self and reality. To be vacant is to be empty, devoid of a self. 

This is what Sloth does. If we were to take Sloth and skip ahead to the last chapter, to the most extreme form, this is what would happen. If the end result of this process is to be devoid of a self, then the process itself is the erasing of the self, "self-forgetting".


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Maybe I'm just a unique kind of type 5...


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## TTIOTBSAL (May 26, 2014)

Distortions said:


> @_Dana Scully_
> What made you chose your current avatar
> 
> I don't know what would be the "best" way to find your heart fix, but basically the heart triad is about creating a presence, about "being somebody", value... so your heart fix will likely have an effect on how you chose to present yourself, and how you experience yourself in relation to other people.
> ...



I assume if you asked it must be relevant. I made it because I find it sarcastic/funny, it's a bit satirical with the "I'm fine", carricaturing a trait of the character who can act larger than life but it's not necessarily what she is. It looks funny but shows more of the truth this way, to me. 

Mm hard to tell. I don't like to deceive, but I probably do, not to deceive others, but not to let them know me, I don't want anyone too close. That wouldn't be a 4 then. I prefer to appear strong and in control than show my true self to everybody. I don't very much like to lie or cheat, so I'd rather show nothing at all, the least possible. Not very expansive by nature, so it works just fine.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

mimesis said:


> That is also related to (permeable) boundaries, but sounds more like type 4s introjection than type 9s confluence.
> 
> You can read an explanation here
> the only thing unchanged is Change : Gestalt processes explained - Introjection, Projection, Confluence and Retroflection.


Took a look at the link - yeah, I definitely introject. A lot. And project, somewhat, though I at least keep that a little more private.



> I haven't myself settled on any type for you yet. I usually prefer to just give info in response to what someone writes. I know my limitations in judging how pervasive something is, and I leave that assessment up to others. *In a way it's more interesting for me when for instance you think you are a nine and say something typically 4ish, than when you say something typically 9ish, which could be directed with an intention, or confirmation bias. *
> 
> Also it doesn't matter that much for me what type it would be, because it's about you after all, as a person and real life and not a type of personality or theory.


Maybe I'm just messed up in the head. :tongue:

Both my "Nineish" and "Fourish" traits are real - or they better be - I guess I'm not sure which is the real, base personality and which is a bunch of recently acquired mental nonsense developed in reaction to life events. I know my imagey side has existed for a while; I also know I've always been rather passive and self-contained, habitually going along when I felt like I had no choice. 

So, I'm sticking with Nine unless there ends up being some kind of significant evidence otherwise.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Question: How does 9 manifest as a fix?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Tsk, sometimes I can feel so 3ish in a way, though it does seem like a pretty absurd typing for me overall... I guess it's the lines of integration or disintegration at work or something.


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## PoloniumCyanide (Aug 17, 2015)

Do 24 year old 1s have highly visceral inner world of dancing jellybabies and dark humour to entertain them when they're idle or do I have to be a 4, 5 or 9 for that?


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

I like kittens, morbid humor and am most likely a One. Is that enough?


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## PoloniumCyanide (Aug 17, 2015)

Brains said:


> I like kittens, morbid humor and am most likely a One. Is that enough?


Erm...I don't know, I'm conscious of moving into Barnum territory, I'm aware that I moved it there. I feel like someone who's trying to be Descartes in this enneagram thing but is actually a Rebecca Black tribute act.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Lately I've been wondering if I'm not a 7w6 instead of 6w7. I relate a lot to the furstration triad, but also to the attachment one. I don't fit the idea of 7 in my head and compared to 7s, I feel like a tamer version of them, but in terms of main themes of my life, they seem to be more in line with 7 than with 6. I do look for answers. A lot. But it's more because I want to be appeased and stop being so restless. It seems like I'm always trying to run away of my mind because there's a lot going on down there. It's still very 6, but also very 7. Like a 7 flavored 6 or a 6 flavored 7. I need to sober up. I seem sober enough, but in a place where I feel at home and comfortable in my own skin I regress to a time where I was a very demanding kid that wanted to be stimulated at all times and felt guilty about it, taking too much from life or being too much for others and I tried to repress it. There's fear and doubt as well. If I wasn't such a pussy, I'd be more adventurous and experience life more, something I long for. I'm no stranger to envy, I envy others' lifestyles, experiences ammased, even personality. I feel boring, I care way too much about being interesting. Sometimes I do weird stuff just to be an oddball and when I'm pigeonholed into a caricature of me that serves me as a gateway for social interaction and entertainment and people talking about me, I tend to embody that character and reinforce the idea. It seems fun to me. I don't put me in that position just to be accepted. I do it to play along. And it still feels like a part of me, I still feel very genuine doing it. It's like all of that is part of me and I'm just exploring that side of me. When I said that, I didn't feel wrong saying it, but now that I re-read it, I feel kinda ashamed I'm denigrating me for a stupid reason. Just for the stimuli.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

Well I keep going back and forth between 5w6 and 9w1. I lean most towards 5w6 at the moment but there is no doubt I have some strong 9 tendencies. Several times, I have had people tell me I mistyped myself and I'm more of a 9 than 5. 

What makes me doubt 5 is that I don't get into heavy intellectual debates. They are too conflict ridden for one thing. I am a bit more sociable than a typical 5 might be but I definitely need my own space and alone time. Moreso than most people. I like to feel like I fit in somewhere, like I have some 'niche.' Maybe that's social instinct though. I also tend to care more what other people think than would be typical for a 5 I guess. People think I'm rather passive, which I resent being called. 

So those are some reasons why I often have doubts about being type 5. 

Also, have some doubts on stacking. I know I'm SX last but am I SP first or SO first? Tests seem to suggest SP first but like I said I care alot what others think and I do like being part of social groups provided that I agree with their mission and purpose and I don't have to over conform. 

Also some doubts on the heart fix of my tritype as well.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm not sure about my head fix. I need a lot of freedom but is it 7 or 5? I hoard free time because if I didn't have it I'd probably be extremely unhappy. But I don't necessarily need to fill that time with activities, and when I do I tend to put all my time into one or two things rather than doing a little of everything. For some reason I always feel like there's never enough free time, even when I have a lot of it. Sometimes I hoard "empty time" doing hardly anything but introspection, as if I could get more time by spending less. I'd probably do more if I had more desires though, Sloth makes them slip away.


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

Recede said:


> I need a lot of freedom but is it 7 or 5?


Autonomy? That's very much a 9 thing.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

aurly said:


> Autonomy? That's very much a 9 thing.


True but there doesn't seem to be anything else there that could be the focus of my head fix. Most likely it comes from both 9 and my head fix.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

OMG nothing is making sense!!!

I can relate to some 9 things so strongly, like the all or nothing thing, soooooo me. I don't give a fuck about that chocolate unless I can eat the whole thing, I won't date you just because unless I'm _really_ into you, I won't be friends with just anyone, it all must be complete and perfect and just how I always wanted it to be. I'd rather die of boredom and everything else than go into something where I don't see potential for getting _everything_. What's the point?
Some things still aren't making sense though
@Animal @Spirit Animal

Edit: I always saw that as very non 9-ish, because I usually see 9s floating somewhere around the middle till they find that one thing, they have underlying all or nothing, in a way, but others see them as generally moderate. I rarely see 9s in the true extremes, I was always annoyed with my best friend for that reason, not nice or mean, doesn't agree but also doesn't disagree, doesn't care or not care, says she wants X but accepts she won't get it to the point of wanting being nothing more than a daydream even in her mind, etc. There's rigidity underneath it all and some kind of all or nothing but it's more like "what I really want vs just enough to survive" and not "all or nothing" (difference being she doesn't want what most would consider "all" in the first place and would much rather not risk anything she already has, so where's the "nothing"?)
Am I making sense?
Although I'm automatically looking at it more in terms of goals, _wanting_ all or nothing, for example wanting the whole chocolate or no chocolate and actually it's meant as wanting to enjoy _the_ chocolate (and when healthier going to the store to get it) vs just mindlessly eating some chocolate. That seems more 9-like.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Living dead

I have to get the "All or Nothing" thing into better words. I'm stewing on it, but I have other more pressing matters irl at the moment, so I can't... quite explain it yet. So I will wait a little longer until I can find the words.

Sorry, sometimes my thoughts get stuck in Ne-Fi land and my Te goes on vacation.

As for your type, I'd vote 3w4 Sx. I can't really explain why  I've always had the feeling you were a 3, since you first asked me to type you, and I did see some 9 stuff in your OP on your typing thread, and I definitely think you're 9 fixed, but since then I have learned more about type 9 and so I have gone back to my original "gut feeling" that you are not a core 9, but a core 3. It's so hard to explain. But for what it's worth, @Draconic (formerly Spirit Animal) had the same feeling, before we even met each other.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

@*Living dead*

Yeah, I'd say sx 3w4, even though I only have a surface impression of you. But it's the sort of thing that just jumps out at you, you know? Energy typing, guilty lol. xD

9 fixed 3's will be able to recognize plenty of 9 in themselves, with their natural connection to 9 and then on top of that a 9 fix. Of course, when a 9 has a 3 fix, they'll recognize a lot of that in themselves too. But 9 core seems off for you. I guess, reading between the lines, I think you have a different focus.

And if subtypes would help; sexual 3 is the most 9ish 3, and social 9 is the most 3ish 9. And I think you actually might be social last..


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Thank you, both of you!

I actually have a bit of an issue with instincts when it comes to 3, the subtypes are confusing me and I'm not sure whether I should ignore them and go by what instincts feel right or take them into account. Because I relate to social 3 a lot, definitely more than sp 3 but I do think I'm generally social last.
@Animal, I personally understand what you meant by all or nothing, now that I think about it, but at first it seems confusing because it's hard to connect that wording with a person who is a 9 even though it makes sense. There's just different kinds of all or nothing, I'd even say every type has their own kind. For example today I was talking about something here(I mean the forum) and said something about liking to make already bad situations even more awful then they are, which can be seen as all or nothing, but it's not what I'd associate with 9(unless you mean subtly make them worse because "why bother" but that's not what I meant)
But I do get what you mean.


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

Living dead said:


> Thank you, both of you!
> 
> I actually have a bit of an issue with instincts when it comes to 3, the subtypes are confusing me and I'm not sure whether I should ignore them and go by what instincts feel right or take them into account. Because I relate to social 3 a lot, definitely more than sp 3 but I do think I'm generally social last.
> @Animal, I personally understand what you meant by all or nothing, now that I think about it, but at first it seems confusing because it's hard to connect that wording with a person who is a 9 even though it makes sense. There's just different kinds of all or nothing, I'd even say every type has their own kind. For example today I was talking about something here(I mean the forum) and said something about liking to make already bad situations even more awful then they are, which can be seen as all or nothing, but it's not what I'd associate with 9(unless you mean subtly make them worse because "why bother" but that's not what I meant)
> But I do get what you mean.


I agree with you on the precariously described type 3 instincts. They seem kind of accurate but not really, like somebody who wasn't a three figured they'd write what it might be like to be a three from their point of view. It captures a little of what it's like (assuming mine is correct) but not really the essence of it. Perhaps this is something people of other types feel too. Certainly, the core type feels comfortable but adding the instincts muddies the waters.

One thing I do not see is my integration line to 6. The 9 disintegration, I've experienced. Maybe I've tended to be an average 3 and just never seen the growth line.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I agree with you on the precariously described type 3 instincts. They seem kind of accurate but not really, like somebody who wasn't a three figured they'd write what it might be like to be a three from their point of view. It captures a little of what it's like (assuming mine is correct) but not really the essence of it. Perhaps this is something people of other types feel too. Certainly, the core type feels comfortable but adding the instincts muddies the waters.
> 
> One thing I do not see is my integration line to 6. The 9 disintegration, I've experienced. Maybe I've tended to be an average 3 and just never seen the growth line.


All of the subtypes are definitely described in a shallow way so it doesn't bother me much.
My problem is that I don't see why subtype descriptions would be correct, even superficially.
Why would a sx 3 be 9-ish(as in sweet, gentle, conflict avoidant, etc.)? What makes 3+sx act that way? Why wouldn't a 3 have a different idea of what's desirable?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> One thing I do not see is my integration line to 6. The 9 disintegration, I've experienced. Maybe I've tended to be an average 3 and just never seen the growth line.


I still don't quite get how integration to 6 is supposed to work myself. Like 6 disintegration to 3 I can make sense of, but 3>6 is apparently supposed to be something like the 3... becoming more cooperative and shit. Ugh, I dunno, there's probably something more meaningful to it than that (I hope).


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