# ESTP vs INTJ what is the most narcissistic?



## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

any skilled psychologists in mbti person when you ask who is the most narcissistic of all types?, many times you answer "is INTJ" or "is estp", so it is if you ask what is the most psychopath, opinions usually are divided into estp and intj, some say INTJ is narcissistic, while estp is psychopath.

in my opinion, INTJ is narcissistic because always sure of his decisions and is independent (I,N and J characteristics) while estp is sociopath that is impulsive and easily bored (E,S,and P characteristics), despite the difference of these types, often the two share these disorders, and for you what is the most narcissistic or psycopath of the two?


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## The Nameless Composer (Sep 20, 2014)

INTJs do give off a 'know it all' vibe. Not so familiar with ESTPs to say.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

The Nameless Composer said:


> INTJs do give off a 'know it all' vibe. Not so familiar with ESTPs to say.


I do not think that narcissism has something to do with "who knows more?" Furthermore, most estp avoid verbal debates because are "bored"


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

I think NJs in general (yes, even xNFJs) are the most inclined to have that colloquial "god complex" kind of narcissism. But statistically, I don't know how much of a correlation you would actually find. I might be a little cocky, but I can promise you that I'm not a sociopath.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

Rebelgoatalliance said:


> I think NJs in general (yes, even xNFJs) are the most inclined to have that colloquial "god complex" kind of narcissism. But statistically, I don't know how much of a correlation you would actually find. I might be a little cocky, but I can promise you that I'm not a sociopath.


I'm not saying that all estp are narcissist and only spoke of trends of personality disorders


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

What's INTP, schizotypy? So special you probably haven't even heard of the disorder they are associated with.


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## Amelia (Aug 23, 2015)

Definitely INTJ


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## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

ENTPs are more "narcissistic" than ESTPs, no?


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> What's INTP, schizotypy? So special you probably haven't even heard of the disorder they are associated with.


I think you're missing the principal theme of post.



Amelia said:


> Definitely INTJ


I would agree with you if you mean the narcissistic, but do not think an intj be impulsive as a sociopath



Karla said:


> ENTPs are more "narcissistic" than ESTPs, no?


ENTPs are sometimes very condescending while narcissists are confident in their thoughts.


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## Monty (Jul 12, 2011)

I thought entjs were most cocky


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

hannibal said:


> in my opinion, INTJ is narcissistic because always sure of his decisions and is independent


Wow. Just wow. Being self-confident and independent is narcissistic? Umm... do you even know what narcissism is? 

Psychological definition of narcissism: "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type."

Being confident in one's abilities is a very good thing as long as one does not overestimate oneself, which generally speaking mature INTJs do not do. At all. We are one of if not the most introspective type, and we are very hard on ourselves. We never quite measure up to our ideals, and we are very aware of our strengths and weaknesses. Just because someone knows they are good at something does not make them a narcissist, it makes them normal and healthy. If others perceive this as being a "know-it-all vibe," they are gravely mistaken, and that is their problem. I do not speak with authority on topics I know little about, and I enjoy being proven wrong. It just so happens that I research everything I care about so much that it is difficult to prove me wrong, but when I meet my match (usually an INTP), it is ehilirating. And when someone knows something I don't, it is an opportunity for me to learn something new. 

And independence is a very good thing. We don't hate people, we just prefer to take care of ourselves. Again, this is healthy--adults should take care of themselves. I'm not sure why someone would argue otherwise. We are introverted, but are (generally) more than happy to engage in social activities with interesting people.

As for admiration... just Google "INTJ compliments" and you'll find a ton of stuff about how much we hate being complimented. It personally makes me very uncomfortable, and I do not like being the center of attention at all. The only validation I need is my own. My self-worth is not contingent upon what others think of me. Again, this is _healthy_.

Also, contrary to popular belief, we are not robots. Many typologists actually believe the INTJ to be one of the types that feels the most deeply. Just because we don't put our emotions on display or use them to make decisions does not mean they are not there. The same goes for empathy. Gratuitous display of emotion is what's narcissistic--someone who lays all of their problems out in the open for all to see and then demands sympathy. No thanks.

There is so much wrong with this thread....


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## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

hannibal said:


> ENTPs are sometimes very condescending while narcissists are confident in their thoughts.


Wouldn't having confidence in one's thoughts _complement_ the possibility of that person speaking condescendingly?


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

Monty said:


> I thought entjs were most cocky


Not sure cocky is the word I would use. They definitely have the reputation of being arrogant though. Some certainly are, but in my experience a lot of them have usually just been very decisive and take-charge. Meeker people might call that arrogance.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

hannibal said:


> any skilled psychologists in mbti person when you ask who is the most narcissistic of all types?, many times you answer "is INTJ" or "is estp", so it is if you ask what is the most psychopath, opinions usually are divided into estp and intj, some say INTJ is narcissistic, while estp is psychopath.
> 
> in my opinion, INTJ is narcissistic because always sure of his decisions and is independent (I,N and J characteristics) while estp is sociopath that is impulsive and easily bored (E,S,and P characteristics), despite the difference of these types, often the two share these disorders, and for you what is the most narcissistic or psycopath of the two?


I would say ESTP. people who have been typed as ENTP, and people who score high on psychopathy scales, tend to type ENTP. That only goes to say secondary Ti, may have some correlation with psychopathy. In which case, ESTP, is much more likely than INTJ imo.

Also, INTJs seem very contemplative while narcissists are not so much (poor or lack of impulse control), even if the person is an INTJ, it is unlikely that they would type as INTJ using the MBTI tool, and would fall in the ENTP category, and of course may transition between that and ESTP.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

nautilus_5 said:


> Wow. Just wow. Being self-confident and independent is narcissistic? Umm... do you even know what narcissism is?


I think you are thinking about what he wrote too deeply.

Being over-confident can be assigned to narcissists. 

I don't think the OP generally wanted to say that INTJs are psychopaths (that's definitely not true). 

However, research has shown that psychopaths generally type high on the ENTP scaling (whether or not they are truly that type), and therefore, also have Big Five correlates of that ENTP scaling. 

However, this also assumes that their true type is hidden, (whether ENTJ, INTJ, ESFJ, INFP etc) and for some reason, being the "ENTP" is the "public face" that psychopaths (or antisocial/narcissistic personality - the subdiagnoses of psychopathy) give the world.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

AverOblivious said:


> I think you are thinking about what he wrote too deeply.
> 
> Being over-confident can be assigned to narcissists.
> 
> ...


Yes, but he has repeatedly said "self-confident" not "over-confident." Huge distinction there. He's made a number of generalized negative comments about INTJs throughout this thread. 

It's also important to note that it is usually not recommended to type people with serious mental disorders/disabilities, especially Antisocial Personality Disorder. Individuals with these issues are so unstable that they can act like any type at any time, and many lack any sort of cohesive personality.


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## UnicornRainbowLove (May 8, 2014)

From what I understand from the Big Five, the best indicator of narcissism is extroversion followed by agreeableness. Agreeableness one should think of as how compulsive towards helping others you are. It relates to many of the same phenomena that govern Feeling-Thinking, but without truly being the same thing. 
Mostly narcissism is seen (and measured) by looking at how much a person craves admiration, so it isn't surprising that extroversion would be what statistics deem the best indicator of narcissism.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

nautilus_5 said:


> Yes, but he has repeatedly said "self-confident" not "over-confident." Huge distinction there. He's made a number of generalized negative comments about INTJs throughout this thread.
> 
> It's also important to note that it is usually not recommended to type people with serious mental disorders/disabilities, especially Antisocial Personality Disorder.* Individuals with these issues are so unstable that they can act like any type at any time, and many lack any sort of cohesive personality*.


I agree with you on the self-confidence not being over-confidence. These two terms are completely different, and the OP needs to clarify next time he writes a thread. 

The bolded is incorrect. There is a difference between a mental illness and a personality disorder. Persons with personality disorders generally know what they are doing and cannot be considered mentally ill per se, and therefore are not 'unstable'. They also generally have a very firm grasp of their identity, and that is actually a characteristic of the disorder. I can link you the phenotypic differences article which states something along these lines - they even may use their own appearance (a fixed image), to define their own identity in a community. Therefore, if they are using a fixed image of themselves to define their identity, their identity will also be fixed (and possible _excessively_ so - in which case, this offshoot symptom will seem "mentally unstable", although it is not). 

Please be aware, these are not mentally ill people. For these reasons, you may even know some people suffering from psychopathy who are 'just great guys' with a 'terrific personality'. Mainly because the nature of the disorder allows for them to mold a clear cut fixed identity for themselves, something that others can rely on. 

So variance in personality is the last place you need to look, if you are trying to identify NPD or ASPD. Rather, a lack of impulse control which leads to a protruding, excessive or aggressive sense of identity (i.e. 'it's like they we had done something terrible to offend them) at a perceived slight (i.e. i threw a remote control at him, it wouldn't hurt anyone though)

Basically, instability (i.e. acting like different types all at the same time) is more a cornerstone of mental illness, not personality disorders. You will see this in Schizophrenia or Multiple personality disorder, either are considerable breakdowns of thoughts, feelings and behavior processes. In this case, it will be hard to type using MBTI.

However, in my view, as ENTP is a correlation with psychopathy traits, this, in my view, shows that psychopaths are identifying themselves as ENTPs, rather than actually being ENTPs. ENTP seems like a 'perfect type' of person that a NPD sufferer would want to be like: For these reasons (stepping inside the mind of the NPD typing himself/herself) -

Extroverted = perfect communication skills 
iNtuition = Perfect understanding of anything in our world 
Thinking = Perfect ability to tackle any problem in sight 
Perceiving = Perfect ability to tackle any problem that comes my way

Jungian Functions will give a completely different story for their true personality, if applied correctly using evidence-based reasoning.


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## Groovy (Jan 4, 2015)

Tbh, every narcissist I've met has been ESxJ.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

AverOblivious said:


> I agree with you on the self-confidence not being over-confidence. These two terms are completely different, and the OP needs to clarify next time he writes a thread.
> 
> The bolded is incorrect. There is a difference between a mental illness and a personality disorder. Persons with personality disorders generally know what they are doing and cannot be considered mentally ill per se, and therefore are not 'unstable'. They also generally have a very firm grasp of their identity, and that is actually a characteristic of the disorder. I can link you the phenotypic differences article which states something along these lines - they even may use their own appearance (a fixed image), to define their own identity in a community. Therefore, if they are using a fixed image of themselves to define their identity, their identity will also be fixed (and possible _excessively_ so - in which case, this offshoot symptom will seem "mentally unstable", although it is not).
> 
> ...


I was not speaking of all personality disorders, simply Antisocial Personality Disorder and other severe mental illnesses such as psychosis. And people with personality disorders are mentally ill--they are classified as a mental illness, are listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and are considered a mental and behavioral disorder by the American Psychiatric Association. But most of them do have cohesive personalities--except those with Antisocial Personality Disorder. They create multiple versions of themselves to compensate for lack of emotion/empathy in order to appear normal. Studies have shown that people with this disorder are very difficult if not impossible to type, and will receive back to back polar opposite results on the MBTI.


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## Serpent (Aug 6, 2015)

Narcissism starts with the letter N. Therefore, I conclude that INxJs and ENxPs are the most narcissistic types. Although, the abundance of S's confuses me.

Yesterday, I had an encounter with a very narcissistic individual who seemed to be interested in art. I met him as he was drawing a waterfall while listening to classical music. Perhaps ISFP is the narcissistic type?


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

hannibal said:


> who said that narcissists are impulsive and not contemplative ???


Oh, I'm saying that they are contemplative as an opposite to a lack of or poor impulse control. For example, smashing a bar window on impulse that someone else does not like you. This feature is common in pretty much all personality disorders - they all have some sort of derivative of poor impulse control.

IMO, none of the types generally have these preferences. Especially not INTJs. 

I think people get confused and think that INTJs are the real psychopaths or NPD sufferers, when their personality may just seem like they are NPD sufferers or Psychopaths. In other words, wearing the psychopathic-like 'mask' is much less psychopathic, than wearing an ENTP mask, and _keeping your true psychopathy hidden on the inside._ This is because presenting yourself as psychopathic, allows others to realize that psychopathy is present - psychological manipulation of the psychopath would require that others do not know that the psychopathy is present. 

Basically, a man with a mask, which aims to cover something sinister on the inside, is much more distressing for others, than a man with a terrifying mask, who is filled with kindness on the inside. INTJs fit more into the latter category, they tend to present the more sinister exterior - moreso than the ESTP personality or ENTP personality, two types who are known for their extroverted roles in advertising or promotional activities, lawyer-ing, etc which would denote they are more capable of wearing a 'wonderous' mask with a a more sinister inside world. 

As such Ni-dominants make connections seemingly out of the unconscious and have difficulty stringing them together so closely as Ne-dominants. This can also be seen in some ESTP types (but to a lesser degree), due to their inferior Ni, and most ISTP types, due to their tertiary Ni. 

Ne-types have much easier time stringing ideas, abstractions, etc together in clear view for others to see. This is a difference between the ESTJ (Ne user) and the ENTJ (Ni user). ENTJ acts more on the unconscious and their ideas may get a bit more obscure, while the ESTJ works directly on patterns and is more inclined to have a clearer and more linked or available thought process. 

Both Te users, both inclined toward outward objectivity and picking apart logical inconsistencies, however, one is more clearer or more readily communicative of their knowledge, than the other in their approach.

The one that is more readily communicative of thoughts, is more likely to foster a psychopathy 'mask', which would be what allows them to appear normal and mask the sinister acts or thoughts that are inside them.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

So basically, I would say that people who type as ESTPs are much more likely to be psychopaths than INTJs. 

People who types as ENTPs, are much more likely to be psychopaths than any other of the 16 types.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

hannibal said:


> seriously??, I think you're somebody who see any intelligent person and says is automatically INTJ.


Aren't you a hypocrite for criticizing me for supposed stereotyping, while stereotyping yourself.


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## Lunaena (Nov 16, 2013)

Some ESTPs I have observed has seemed one of the nicest people ever, but I don't know how real that mask was.

An observation I made in the children film "Hotel Transylvania", was that one of the main characters there, a human named Jonathan, was most likely an ESTP, and he was also one of the nicest, kindest and honest people there, while the INTJ father, Dracula, was not narcissistic, but he was rather unwilling to accept help from anyone and was very proud of his castle and daughter (Mavis, an ENFP).

In my eyes, the game between INTJ Dracula and ESTP Jonathan, vampire versus human, was quite interesting to see happen in front of me.

Another person in real life, a real living being, an ESTP male I met in the summer, whom I hung out with, seemed very manipulative when he wanted to, but generally wearing a mask of being nice, outgoing and crazy.

I honestly don't see ESTP or INTJ as narcissistic as types at all, but it is interesting to see people of these types and who they are versus who they show themselves to others.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

Not from movies. Not a big Hollywood fan. Some are, some are not. Many are meticulous planners--look at serial killers. The distinction seems to be in the criminal subtypes--sociopaths are impulsive, psychopaths can go either way.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

hannibal said:


> seriously??, I think you're somebody who see any intelligent person and says is automatically INTJ.


No. This description fits every INTJ I know, including myself. Stop stereotyping. And look up "grammar" please.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

nautilus_5 said:


> No. This description fits every INTJ I know, including myself.


all intjs are smart,but not all smarts are intj :wink:


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

hannibal said:


> all intjs are smart,but not all smarts are intj :wink:


I was talking about the "soft on the inside" thing. And unfortunately, I know at least one incredibly stupid INTJ. He may be mistyped though.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

hannibal said:


> any skilled psychologists in mbti person when you ask who is the most narcissistic of all types?, many times you answer "is INTJ" or "is estp", so it is if you ask what is the most psychopath, opinions usually are divided into estp and intj, some say INTJ is narcissistic, while estp is psychopath.
> 
> in my opinion, INTJ is narcissistic because always sure of his decisions and is independent (I,N and J characteristics) while estp is sociopath that is impulsive and easily bored (E,S,and P characteristics), despite the difference of these types, often the two share these disorders, and for you what is the most narcissistic or psycopath of the two?


This is a debate which has no answer. Because Narcissism and Sociopathy and whatever else may not even exist. INTJ and ESTP are even less likely to exist.


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## ENTPness (Apr 18, 2015)

hannibal said:


> all intjs are smart


lolno. They all _think _ they are though, that's for damn sure.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

AverOblivious said:


> So basically, I would say that people who type as ESTPs are much more likely to be psychopaths than INTJs.
> 
> People who types as ENTPs, are much more likely to be psychopaths than any other of the 16 types.


extroverted sensing usually more impulsive and want to take action, while extraverted intuition more likes theoretical things, so I think it tends to be estp more sociopathic than enxp


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Aren't you a hypocrite for criticizing me for supposed stereotyping, while stereotyping yourself.


I was not the one who think that stereotype, I know many people that thought someone is intj only their interests, when they clearly are other type (most INTP), also, in what moment I'm stereotyping myself ??


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

hannibal said:


> extroverted sensing usually more impulsive and want to take action, while extraverted intuition more likes theoretical things, so I think it tends to be estp more sociopathic than enxp


impulsiveness is not at the core of the illness, it is more a residual symptom that is observable across many different personality disorders (even avoidant), alongside some mental illnesses such as ADHD.

also, the analysis that Ne likes 'theoretical things' isn't enough to describe the function of Ne. It is more about a preference for making patterns/possibilities and having an outward focus in doing so. While, the outward focus in Se, is more related to sensual experiences or factual/historical data collected alongside an objective perception. 

Of course, the Se focus on facts is not privy to the true psychopath on the outside, and their personality even if ESTP, will come across as more ENTP, because they will be finding more 'possibilities' in the outward world, to lie through. Deception is more at the core of NPD, and psychopathy in general. (i.e. lying to self and lying to others) 

This is as far as stereotypes go for me other than that, i don't think going this deeply into the 'function of Ne' is necessary. As the deeper you go, the more convoluted the description gets.

It's better to stick with 'people who type as ENTP' or 'people who type as ESTP', as this approach is more direct and more evidence-based. Likewise, it is hard to stereotype based on what results people generally get from time to time on an MBTI test, even if the MBTI results are unreliable and change over time; it's better than nothing.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

......


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

hannibal said:


> any skilled psychologists in mbti person when you ask who is the most narcissistic of all types?, many times you answer "is INTJ" or "is estp", so it is if you ask what is the most psychopath, opinions usually are divided into estp and intj, some say INTJ is narcissistic, while estp is psychopath.
> INTJ is narcissistic because always sure of his decisions and is independent (I,N and J characteristics) while estp is sociopath that is impulsive and easily bored (E,S,and P characteristics), despite the difference of these types, often the two share these disorders, and for you what is the most narcissistic or psycopath of the two?


Asks the person with a fucked up profile picture....

And screen name...Maybe, I will start a thread on who might be a psycho serial killer...


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

nautilus_5 said:


> Wow. Just wow. Being self-confident and independent is narcissistic? Umm... do you even know what narcissism is?
> 
> Psychological definition of narcissism: "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type."
> 
> ...


I second that...


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

hannibal said:


> an INTJ is more open and cooperative while intj shown apathetic in many situations, like he does not care about your community, so I think intj more narcissistic than entj


You would...


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

URLteenth said:


> This is a debate which has no answer. Because Narcissism and Sociopathy and whatever else may not even exist. INTJ and ESTP are even less likely to exist.


?


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## Robopop (Jun 15, 2010)

hannibal said:


> any skilled psychologists in mbti person when you ask who is the most narcissistic of all types?, many times you answer "is INTJ" or "is estp", so it is if you ask what is the most psychopath, opinions usually are divided into estp and intj, some say INTJ is narcissistic, while estp is psychopath.
> 
> in my opinion, INTJ is narcissistic because always sure of his decisions and is independent (I,N and J characteristics) while estp is sociopath that is impulsive and easily bored (E,S,and P characteristics), despite the difference of these types, often the two share these disorders, and for you what is the most narcissistic or psycopath of the two?


Depends on if you mean NPD(Narcissistic Personality Disorder), one of the key features of NDP is a excessive need of external admiration and INTJ is probably the type least likely to value external praise and social admiration. INTJs generally do want some level of power and influence but more of a pulling the strings behind the curtain kind of thing.

ESTPs, ENTPs, ESFJs and ENFJs probably fall the most at risk for NPD because of the combination of Extroverted Feeling(which requires the most social validation) and Extroverted Perception.

You are right with psychopathy and ESTP though, it's not that the majority of ESTPs are psychopathic but the ones who have very weak Ti run the risk of having no stable inner conscience and being very impulsive and reckless.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

nautilus_5 said:


> Ah, yet another F-type proving himself incapable of understanding that people unlike him are not somehow fundamentally flawed. Isn't typism banned on this site?


You seem to be very interested in this topic, even though many say the topic is silly.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

hannibal said:


> You seem to be very interested in this topic, even though many say the topic is silly.


See my latest post. You have made blanket, offensive, and untrue statements about my type.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

nautilus_5 said:


> See my latest post. You have made blanket, offensive, and untrue statements about my type.


"typism" is a good word for those people who discriminate against others for their personality type, like saying infp are hippies and teddy bears, or say that entj are evil overlords, probably i am "typist" ,and if I offended, sorry


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

hannibal said:


> "typism" is a good word for those people who discriminate against others for their personality type, like saying infp are hippies and teddy bears, or say that entj are evil overlords, probably i am "typist" ,and if I offended, sorry


This is exactly what you have done, as multiple posters have indicated in this thread.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

nautilus_5 said:


> This is exactly what you have done, as multiple posters have indicated in this thread.


God, you hurt my ego, but I can not forgive everyone,besides, and everything you've said on this topic, could do a bible


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

hannibal said:


> God, you hurt my ego, but I can not forgive everyone,besides, and everything you've said on this topic, could do a bible


I have no idea what any of this means. You seem to lack a basic understanding of language; it's like I'm trying to read ancient Greek, it's so incoherent. Please write in a way that others will understand your sentences.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

nautilus_5 said:


> I have no idea what any of this means. You seem to lack a basic understanding of language, it's like I'm trying to read ancient Greek, it's so incoherent.


This topic has come to call "stupid debate between Nautilus and Hannibal" and I originally speak Russian, for that reason I write like a Neanderthal


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

hannibal said:


> This topic has come to call "stupid debate between Nautilus and Hannibal" and I originally speak Russian, for that reason I write like a Neanderthal


You are clearly capable of coherence as I understand this post. I did not understand your previous one as it was utterly incoherent and if you wish a reply you should explain.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

hannibal said:


> if the thread is so silly, so why have so many answers?, I also bored me this topic. this seems more a battle of opinions that a thread"


LOL and 
i disagree with anyone that says this thread is dumb . this was a cool thread


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

nautilus_5 said:


> I have no idea what any of this means. You seem to lack a basic understanding of language; it's like I'm trying to read ancient Greek, it's so incoherent. Please write in a way that others will understand your sentences.


I know you are mad, but this is making a personal attack and it's against forum policy.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

AverOblivious said:


> I know you are mad, but this is making a personal attack and it's against forum policy.


I am not mad, and I was not making a personal attack. I wanted him to explain what he was trying to say so that I could properly respond. And this entire thread is against forum policy.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

nautilus_5 said:


> And this entire thread is against forum policy.


and there's another.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

AverOblivious said:


> and there's another.


See "typism" in forum rules.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

nautilus_5 said:


> See "typism" in forum rules.


I think those are old rules. Basically, what the 'Forum Rules' which is listed right at the bottom states, is that anything made which is vulgar, etc can be accused of being against forum rules. 
Likewise, Rules are not Policy (or Laws), the real _*rules* *you must follow*_ are in the 'Terms of Use' at the bottom of the PerC website. 

It doesn't say anything about 'Typism' there, but it does say a lot about what you stated, which can be considered 'libelous' or 'defamatory', as it decreases the reputation of a person in the eyes of others or the right minded members of the community. (we learn this in Torts Law)



> Use the Web Site to post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, profane or indecent information of any kind


Typism? No. No one attacked any ENTP and called them a psychopath - it's just a friendly discussion about Personality Disorder correlates and hypothetical situations. It's only a "typist" attack or any other attack, if you want it to be one. Again, even if it was, making a personal attack which can be considered libelous, is against Forum Policy/Law. 

Put simply, just not following rules, makes you a rebel or rogue, going against Forum Policy can get you banned (along with your email, ID, etc).


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

AverOblivious said:


> I think those are old rules. Basically, what the 'Forum Rules' which is listed right at the bottom states, is that anything made which is vulgar, etc can be accused of being against forum rules.
> Likewise, Rules are not Policy (or Laws), the real _*rules* *you must follow*_ are in the 'Terms of Use' at the bottom of the PerC website.
> 
> It doesn't say anything about 'Typism' there, but it does say a lot about what you stated, which can be considered 'libelous' or 'defamatory', as it decreases the reputation of a person in the eyes of others or the right minded members of the community. (we learn this in Torts Law)
> ...


Excerpt on typism from current forum rules:

11. No Discriminatory Remarks
Discriminatory remarks are unacceptable. This includes racism, sexism, offensive remarks about (or against) religion* or gender identity, physical attributes (size, height, etc.), and homophobic remarks. We also prohibit typism: We will not tolerate broad generalizations and/or individual attacks that are meant to degrade by personality type. (Joking is acceptable; but if a member asks that a particular line of joking stop and it persists anyway, staff will take corrective action.)

Definition typism (adj. n.): 

1. A pejorative where a person is denied a service or opportunity based on their personality type. 
2. A form of discrimination and an attempt to explain, validate and excuse their negative behavior. 
3. *Assigning negative or insulting stereotypes based on typology with little to no verification.*

And I was not being libelous--I was stating the fact that the guy was being very unclear. If bringing attention to that lowered his reputation, well someone was going to bring it up sooner or later, so he did it to himself. How does he expect to operate on a forum if he writes in a way that no one can understand him? Simple facts.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

nautilus_5 said:


> Excerpt on typism from current forum rules:
> 
> 11. No Discriminatory Remarks
> Discriminatory remarks are unacceptable. This includes racism, sexism, offensive remarks about (or against) religion* or gender identity, physical attributes (size, height, etc.), and homophobic remarks. We also prohibit typism: We will not tolerate broad generalizations and/or individual attacks that are meant to degrade by personality type. (Joking is acceptable; but if a member asks that a particular line of joking stop and it persists anyway, staff will take corrective action.)
> ...


again, these are just rules, not laws/policy. they can't be grounds to exclude another user from a thread, but a personal attack can be according to policy. That's the reason for my heads up to you. 

your counterargument against it being libelous isn't strong, hypotheticals don't defeat the purpose of the policy. (i.e. 'Someone could have done it sooner or later'). Also, the focus of the counterargument itself, should be less on his actions and more on your actions, as there is no reason for people with English as a Second Language, to be excluded from any thread, whether it be moral or legal. 

This, I imagine, is going to go in circles, so this is my last reply to you on this topic. Mainly because, this is going into Legal arguments/topics, I don't like debating on law topics with people on PerC, I do enough of that in law school with other law students, law professors and lawyers.


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## hannibal (Feb 11, 2015)

nautilus_5 said:


> Excerpt on typism from current forum rules:
> 
> 11. No Discriminatory Remarks
> Discriminatory remarks are unacceptable. This includes racism, sexism, offensive remarks about (or against) religion* or gender identity, physical attributes (size, height, etc.), and homophobic remarks. We also prohibit typism: We will not tolerate broad generalizations and/or individual attacks that are meant to degrade by personality type. (Joking is acceptable; but if a member asks that a particular line of joking stop and it persists anyway, staff will take corrective action.)
> ...


did I miss something???,whatever nautilus,if you do not like the topic, you better not comment in this thread, This will prevent major problems.Again, sorry if I offended you,but if the thread is stupid, then it should you not take too seriously,We're not talking about abortion


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

AverOblivious said:


> again, these are just rules, not laws/policy. they can't be grounds to exclude another user from a thread, but a personal attack can be according to policy. That's the reason for my heads up to you.
> 
> your counterargument against it being libelous isn't strong, hypotheticals don't defeat the purpose of the policy. (i.e. 'Someone could have done it sooner or later'). Also, the focus of the counterargument itself, should be less on his actions and more on your actions, as there is no reason for people with English as a Second Language, to be excluded from any thread, whether it be moral or legal.
> 
> This, I imagine, is going to go in circles, so this is my last reply to you on this topic. Mainly because, this is going into Legal arguments/topics, I don't like debating on law topics with people on PerC, I do enough of that in law school with other law students, law professors and lawyers.


Libel: "a published *false statement* that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation."

My statement was not false, and was not intended to excluded him from anything, only to make him restate what he was trying to say more clearly. If it came across as anything else, I apologize, but by no definition was it libel. This will be my last post as well as this is getting quite ridiculous. 

For reference, here is a thread on this very topic which is light-hearted and inoffensive, unlike hannibal's posts:
http://personalitycafe.com/intj-forum-scientists/639898-intj-traits-like-those-psychopaths.html


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## ENTPness (Apr 18, 2015)

First of all, for such a "rational" type, you would think INTJs would be able to understand the difference between saying that there is a correlation between narcissism and INTJ, and saying that all INTJs are narcissists or even that all narcissists are INTJ. Not even close to the same thing.

Second of all, the entire concept of "typism" I think is frankly stupid. Because let's be real here, all typology could be construed as "typism." The entire point of it pretty much is to squeeze people into boxes made of crude stereotypes. Obviously every claim made about the abstract concept "INTJ" is not going to accurately describe every single individual who identifies as an "INTJ," and so taking personal offense about it is pretty ridiculous. Especially for a group of people who tend to claim they have no feelings.


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## nautilus_5 (Sep 9, 2015)

ENTPness said:


> First of all, for such a "rational" type, you would think INTJs would be able to understand the difference between saying that there is a correlation between narcissism and INTJ, and saying that all INTJs are narcissists or even that all narcissists are INTJ. Not even close to the same thing.
> 
> Second of all, the entire concept of "typism" I think is frankly stupid. Because let's be real here, all typology could be construed as "typism." The entire point of it pretty much is to squeeze people into boxes made of crude stereotypes. Obviously every claim made about the abstract concept "INTJ" is not going to accurately describe every single individual who identifies as an "INTJ," and so taking personal offense about it is pretty ridiculous. Especially for a group of people who tend to claim they have no feelings.


1. Look at the thread I linked to in my previous post. Note the difference between that OP and hannibal. Hannibal, multiple times, makes blanket, across-the-board statements about INTJs and ESTPs. The other OP does not. I now realize this may be due to a language barrier, but the point still stands.

2. Fair point, I'm rather wary of typism as well--I was simply making a point because a random person started attacking me for "violating forum rules" and typism is against the rules. Also, there's a difference between labeling something as offensive and taking personal offense to it, which I have not. I simply voiced my opposition to the thread (as did others) and hannibal and the aforementioned random person started going after me for some reason, so I replied, and here we are. 

So much for that being my last post; oh well, I can never shy away from a debate.


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