# Why “I’m an introvert” is starting to sound really…



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I was pretty shocked at the prejudice here against extroverts when I first joined PerC a few years ago… but it’s just gone deeper that direction (here on PerC and likely elsewhere) and there is a disconnect from reality with this that I want to address. It’s like people are living in an illusion of what it means or feels like to be introverted versus extroverted.

1. Extroverts are often not as “out there” or “different” as introverts often think they are…especially since every function has a degree of expression and is modified by other functions— meaning a lot of introverts are mis-typing themselves and others in the current climate and others are creating walls and educating others based on inaccurate information.

2. According to “official” MBTI there are more introverts than extroverts by just 1%. Introverts need to take this into consideration if/when they are blaming all the world’s problems on extroverts. Different societies have different values as part of culture. Some societies prefer introversion and suppress extroversion (Have you seen what that suppression looks like in some countries? It’s not pretty…) Some societies prefer extroversion and suppress (or it’s opposite) introversion, yes.

3. Introversion should not be an excuse.

4. Extroversion is not associated with all the bad traits. Really. Work on this one if you’re not so sure.

4. Introverts cannot claim the following: 1 being nicer 2. Being more thoughtful 3. Being more intellectual 4. Being smarter. 5. Being less shallow 6. Making less life mistakes or creating less problems for others. 7. Having more abundance of imagination or feelings or logic or whatever your preferences tell you is dope.

5. Also if an introverted individual tends to think of extroverts as all being like that one person who they really dislike, all extroverts are not that person. An ESTP can be as different from an ESFJ as you can get. An ESTP and an ISTP are going to be more alike than different.

6. Word count is not an accurate way to type people. 

In short, if you notice you have typed yourself as an introvert and have been de-humanizing extroverts, please stop and refresh, you are working with inaccurate data. If you still aren’t sure, keep working on adjusting so that your views gain more balance and less prejudice.

Hopefully this helps, we will see what you guys think.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I was pretty shocked at the prejudice here against extroverts when I first joined PerC a few years ago… but it’s just gone deeper that direction (here on PerC and likely elsewhere) and there is a disconnect from reality with this that I want to address.. It’s like people are living in a type of illusion of what it means or feels like to be introverted versus extroverted.
> 
> 1. Extroverts are often not as “out there” or “different” as introverts often think they are…especially since every function has a degree of expression and is modified by other functions— meaning a lot of introverts are mis-typing themselves and others in the current climate and others are creating walls and educating others based on inaccurate information.
> 
> ...


Roger that dear. 

Hurtful Misconceptions Across the Introvert-Extrovert Divide: Reasons why introverts and extroverts get testy with each other sometimes.

My last post saw lots of action and stirred up lots of discussion, which, of course, delights me. I'm always thrilled to have people engage in discussion here.

I’m sad, though, to see genuine animosity between introverts and extroverts. It crops up from time to time on this blog, and it's a bummer.

Some people are just cranky or misanthropic, I get that. Some introverts are fed up with being told to change, with struggling to get their say, with being called party poopers or wet blankets or whatever. You can’t blame them, can you? And extroverts take exception to the hostility leveled at them by some introverts. Can’t blame them either.


In today’s post, I would like to address (in sweeping generalizations) some of the misconceptions that cause friction between introverts and extroverts. After all, neither personality type is “better” or “right.” We are yin and yang, peanut butter and jelly, fife and drum, sunset and dawn, thought and action. The world could not function without both types so we needn’t squabble. There’s enough of everything to go around.


This time, let's start with seven misconceptions introverts might have about extroverts.


*Extroverts are all noise, no substance.* No, no, no, and no. I hear this a lot from angry introverts on my blog and categorically reject it. Extroverts don't lack substance because they make a lot of noise any more than introverts lack anything to say because they are quiet. This is style, not substance. *Why this hurts:* It’s just plain insulting.
*Extroverts are not as creative as introverts.* This is a tenacious myth that I also reject. Creativity happens in an introverted space, inside our brains. And while introverts may spend more time in that space, extroverts have access to it as well. Besides, sometimes the stimulation of interaction can help a nebulous idea develop and grow. That’s creativity in an extroverted space. *Why this hurts:* It implies introvert superiority.
*Extroverts are afraid to spend time alone.* Maybe some, but that has nothing to do with extroversion. Even extroverts require solitude sometimes to decompress. It just takes them longer to get there than it does introverts. *Why this hurts:* It’s the flip side of the assumption that introverts are afraid of people. We all have varying needs for solitude vs. socializing.
*Extroverts don’t listen.* Extroverts might not be the hard-core listeners that introverts are, but that doesn’t mean they have their hands over their ears. I am sometimes surprised by what my extroverted friends pick up on that I think they couldn’t possibly have heard over the din that is their life (to my introvert ears). *Why this hurts:* You underestimate your extroverted friends if you think there’s no point in talking to them because they won’t listen.
*Extroverts are needy.* If you mean extroverts need a lot of interaction, then they are needy. But if introverts need a lot of solitude, does that also make them needy? *Why this hurts:* It takes a harmless and healthy desire and turns it into something negative.
*Extroverts want to change introverts.* Some do, yes. And that’s annoying. But they don’t all feel that way. They just want to understand and make sure the introverts in their life are happy. *Why this hurts:* This misconception causes introverts to approach relationships with extroverts from a position of defensiveness, and no good can come of that.
*Extroverts are bullies:* Extroverts, by their nature, might get right up in your face to get a point across. And they tend to state their case in no uncertain terms. But that doesn’t mean they have malevolent motives. And remember that you can only be bullied if you let yourself be bullied. *Why this hurts:* Bullies are mean. Extroverts aren’t mean. Well, some might be, but that has nothing to do with extroversion.

Now then, here are some misconceptions that get introverts all het up.


*Introverts need “help” in social situations.* Not necessarily. Introverts manage social situations in our own way, in our own time. We might, for example, want to survey the scene to figure out where we fit in rather than plunging right in. Given time and space to do it our way, introverts are perfectly capable in social situations. *Why this hurts:* It can be patronizing, and might cause you to try and force introverts to behave in ways that make them uncomfortable.
*Introverts hate parties.* Some do, many don’t. Again, we just party our own way. I love people watching and like finding a quiet spot to watch the scene and talk to anyone who drifts my way. This is my kind of partying. Sometimes I mingle, but that's usually at parties where I know a lot of people, which are my favorite kind. *Why this hurts:* I, for one, hate being told what I do and don’t like. Also, if I don’t want to attend a party, I don’t go. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t invite me. I would be hurt to hear that a friend gave a party and left me out, even if it was with good intentions.
*Introverts would be extroverts if we could.* Maybe some. But most of us are fine with our introverted ways. *Why this hurts:* It assumes that extroversion is preferable. Besides, many of us can behave like extroverts when we want to.
*Introverts don’t have fun.* Not true. We just don’t have fun the same way extroverts do. Our fun tends to be low-key and doesn’t necessarily involve a lot of people—or any other people at all. *Why this hurts:* How would you like being called a party pooper?
*Introverts need to be drawn into conversation.* Again, not necessarily. What we do sometimes need is for everyone else to slow down a little so we have some airspace to enter the conversation. We’re not good at jumping into conversations. *Why this hurts:* It assumes that we need help expressing ourselves. We don’t, we just prefer not to talk unless we have something to say and the time to say it.
*Introverts are not team players.* Teams need all kinds of people to function well. Introverts might get steamrolled in a group setting, but give us the opportunity to make a contribution without having to fight to be heard and you’ll find that we can be integral cogs in the machine. *Why this hurts:* It can be damaging to a career to be perceived this way.
*Introverts are not leadership material.* Actually, research finds that introverts can be quite good at leading teams of extroverts because we don’t compete with the team. Introverts have a quiet confidence and can lead without bluster and bombast given the chance. *Why this hurts:* Another misconception that can be a career killer.

So, can we all just get along please, and respect and appreciate our differences? The world spins a lot more smoothly when we do.









Hurtful Misconceptions Across the Introvert-Extrovert Divide


Reasons why introverts and extroverts get testy with each other sometimes.




www.psychologytoday.com













Introvert vs. Extrovert: A Common Misconception of Personality Types • Sage Recovery & Wellness


Like most categories, our society dichotomizes certain concepts so we are better able to understand and “place” people/things into general ideas that “fit” with our concepts. The idea of introverted individuals versus extroverted individuals is one example. Often society categorizes an...



www.sagerecoveryaustin.com













7 Myths About Introverts and Extroverts That Need to Go


Introverts hate socializing, extroverts are happier, and apparently we can't get along? Think again.




www.healthline.com













7 Persistent Myths about Introverts & Extroverts


Myths and misunderstandings about both introverts and extroverts abound. Introverts don’t like people. Extro




psychcentral.com













The 10 Most Common Myths About Introverts and Extroverts


If you’ve spent very much time in the personality community there’s a good chance that you’ve heard a handful of inaccurate “facts” about introversion or extroversion. Some misconceptions are relatively harmless. Other misconceptions have become so pronounced that we formulate ideas about people...



www.psychologyjunkie.com


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

> 6. Making less life mistakes or creating less problems for others


Thinking about this one. Of the entire list, this one is most likely to be false. Extroverts tend do simply do more things than introverts. Perhaps that also means they will make more life mistakes and cause more problems for others. Probably also fix more things?


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## sugarbait (7 mo ago)

I feel like many "introverts" in the typology community are just unhealthy enneagram 4s that use "I'm introverted" as a substitute for "I'm elite", because nobody would ever say the later.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

secondpassing said:


> Thinking about this one. Of the entire list, this one is most likely to be false. Extroverts tend do simply do more things than introverts. Perhaps that also means they will make more life mistakes and cause more problems for others. Probably also fix more things?


The ideas I hear from many introverts that prompted this sentence have to do with believing extroverts (especially ExxPs is how I hear it)… are more impulsive and “crazy” than introverts. However I (and he would absolutely agree) am much less impulsive than my INFP husband or my INFP sister by a long shot for both. However, my INTP daughter is not more impulsive than me. This leads me to observe that this is all individually based, not based on extroversion or introversion or on P or J. 

I fix more than my INFPs or INTPs and I do less damage. However, I know some very productive introverts. My ISTJ brother does a ton of good in my opinion. I see our doctors here, both extroverts and introverts and they all have their strengths and only one ExTJ doctor does more than everybody in this county, he has 3 jobs— I think just because he can and knows he is needed. 

Let’s take it to the world’s arena. Hitler (introvert) Stalin (extrovert). Benjamin Franklin (extrovert) Gandhi (introvert), Martin Luther King (extrovert), Mother Theresa (introvert.. we think?). Well, and then there are people like Madam Curie who changed the world in their quiet way and even thinking about her self-sacrifice makes me cry. I don’t know really if she was an introvert or extrovert, just that she made a huge difference. The fact that it would matter to some people if she were an introvert or extrovert is the kind of thing that is driving this thread for me. There really seems to be a de-humanization going on and I personally see introverted and Extroverted as being the smallest difference to try to hurtle over out of the preferences for humans. Past the first 30 seconds of interaction, we aren’t very different, if that makes any sense. If INFPs can’t see that they are not very different from an ENFP, for instance, then I would have to proclaim any “typing” as unhealthy. And yet I guess it can be a big 30 second hurtle for some? 

I conclude that from my current observations how much you get done is individual, but It also feels “right” or “comforting” to me to see it as individual, so I may have a bias and can keep an eye out.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

I get annoyed with people who say I can't be a 5w6 and an ENTP.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> The ideas I hear from many introverts that prompted this sentence have to do with believing extroverts (especially ExxPs is how I hear it)… are more impulsive and “crazy” than introverts. However I (and he would absolutely agree) am much less impulsive than my INFP husband or my INFP sister by a long shot for both. However, my INTP daughter is not more impulsive than me. This leads me to observe that this is all individually based, not based on extroversion or introversion or on P or J.
> 
> I fix more than my INFPs or INTPs and I do less damage. However, I know some very productive introverts. My ISTJ brother does a ton of good in my opinion. I see our doctors here, both extroverts and introverts and they all have their strengths and only one ExTJ doctor does more than everybody in this county, he has 3 jobs— I think just because he can and knows he is needed.
> 
> ...


Llyralen, you're what I call a mature and well-developed individual. XD If Extroverts everywhere were to live up to your level of impulse control, maybe this sort of prejudice would just disappear.

The immediate examples in my life have shown extroverts, especially ExxPs, are significantly more prone to impulsivity. My ENTP father and ESFP sister do many things on a whim. Some of them are good, but they are both prone to overspending on flowers as gifts for others. They'll easily spend some multiple of ten dollars as a gift if they see it and want to give a gift. Compare this to my INFJ sister. She will shop around multiple stores to get a good deal. My ISTJ mother will evaluate the price of flowers in her mind and probably end up getting a potted plant because they last longer. And I... I will sit at home thinking up the best possible and meaningful gift, see its unfeasibility, and end up probably not giving any gift at all. I'm generally very bad at giving gifts.

Both my extroverted sister and father are naturally poor at managing money, but at the same time, they are the most likely to use it than I am. Which is the better strategy? There's good and bad in each of them.

Maybe I should have used the word "try" instead of "do" to make my point more clear. I think Ne and Se lead those ExxPs to explore more of their options, and to explore, one really needs to take risks. Some risks pay off, some don't. Introverts probably spend more time deliberating on what option to pick. It doesn't mean they pick better, but the more you think the less time you have to do.

Do I see INFPs and ENFPs as very different? I think there's a lot of similarities, which is why I really liked your thread, but I also can't ignore the differences. I see a lot of INFPs have the thought, "I shouldn't be a burden to others." It's definitely more common for that thought to control INFPs than it is to control ENFPs. It does lead to some good outcomes. I think INFPs are a lot less likely to take advantage of public goods. It leads to bad outcomes. They generally find it harder to make friends. In this way, we're different, but difference shouldn't automatically lead to prejudice.

I certainly don't think extroverts are any less valuable to society than introverts are, and the blame they get is also a generalization which I think is unfair to assign to them, but are we different? Yeah, of course. Are we similar? Yeah, of course.

(Sorry, I have nothing to say about those world leaders. I haven't looked into their typings.)


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> The ideas I hear from many introverts that prompted this sentence have to do with believing extroverts (especially ExxPs is how I hear it)… are more impulsive and “crazy” than introverts. However I (and he would absolutely agree) am much less impulsive than my INFP husband or my INFP sister by a long shot for both. However, my INTP daughter is not more impulsive than me. This leads me to observe that this is all individually based, not based on extroversion or introversion or on P or J.
> 
> I fix more than my INFPs or INTPs and I do less damage. However, I know some very productive introverts. My ISTJ brother does a ton of good in my opinion. I see our doctors here, both extroverts and introverts and they all have their strengths and only one ExTJ doctor does more than everybody in this county, he has 3 jobs— I think just because he can and knows he is needed.
> 
> ...


I have to admit as a younger ENTP, I was a lot more aloof, reckless, boisterous, and generally a grade A asshole, so I think when we're younger, we can very much live up to the stereotypes about us. I come from a long line of "late bloomers." I suspect in my case, tertiary Fe doesn't really start to make a difference until we've lived a while (I say 30s) and we start to really understand the impact of our words and actions on others. My maturity was delayed by a good 5-10 years due to childhood trauma. Military service definitely helped catch me up some. To say I've lived a "colorful life" is an understatement.


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## dandelion breeze (8 mo ago)

Wow I did not know this was a thing. I think those specific introverts who have claimed things like "extroverts are the reason for all the world's problems" have very skewed viewpoints and ideation in general, I would think that is just a loud few people, while the silent overwhelming majority goes about their day not making assumptions like that. I don't tend to pay much attention to loud people with skewed beliefs and assumptions but that's just me.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Llyralen said:


> 4. Introverts cannot claim the following: 1 being nicer 2. Being more thoughtful 3. Being more intellectual 4. Being smarter. 5. Being less shallow 6. Making less life mistakes or creating less problems for others. 7. Having more abundance of imagination or feelings or logic or whatever your preferences tell you is dope.


I definitely claim the opposite of these things (for myself at least). 

Can't help but think this is similar to the prejudice against SJ. Seems that people who say these types of things probably don't have many positive relationships in their life, and everyone they dislike gets labelled a certain type of opposing personality.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

I love extroverts, I can put them between myself and other people. They get their energy and I bring the focus away from me.

It's like classes in an RPG. A party made of only one type tends to be boring and inefficient.


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## Tsubaki (Apr 14, 2015)

I've already read a lot of points in this thread that I wholeheartedly agree with, but I would like to add another observation and put it up for discussion:

One reason why extroverts are often more harshly judged might be because in most situations, "doing something that is inappropriate or harmful" will be percieved as worse by other people than "failing to do something that would have been necessary or appropriate", even if the negative outcome is the same.

For example: A friend of a young, socially unaware extrovert, tells the extrovert about a problem they have. The extrovert wants to help and cheer them up, but ends up talking over the other person, making them feel misunderstood. If the same happens to a socially unaware introvert, they might not really give any input which makes them seem like they don't care at all and also makes the other person feel misunderstood.

The result is the same, both the introvert and the extrovert hurt someone by failing to react appropriately to the situation. Still, I feel like people would be quick to say that the extrovert "did something wrong" while the introvert "just didn't do anything" (or even that the other person is wrong for putting the emotional load on the introvert)


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

Extroverts have the physical world dominated, can't we have the virtual one smh


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes, it's awful isn't it. It's all fun in joke and gest but when people actually are serious.... Righto bro.


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## lykanized (7 mo ago)

There's a strange pride some have in flaunting how little they like the company of others that coincides with this trend

Personally, even though I'm 'introverted', I love people who are more gregarious and ingratiating and who are willing to put themselves out there in vulnerability to either be liked or disliked, loved or hated. It's admirable

I suspect there's a jealousy going on there and compensation from those who aren't able to be that vulnerable

There's also a demeaning attitude toward people who want to make others feel good as if they're weaker. So if you have no desire to extend yourself to others or please them, you're stronger in some way. It's bizarre and nonsensical. People who put themselves out there are being vulnerable and you can only do that if you have inner strength

Pretty much no MBTI stereotypes have real significance anyway. There's all these polarizing notions and it is dehumanizing as you say

I can't imagine it's anything but compensation for insecurity. I guess that's ok. Some people need a place to vent, but it's important to circulate thoughts with care


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

If I have a resentment towards extraverts, it is most likely rooted in my memories of grade school. Extraverts were the "cool" ones, the jocks and the preppies, who went to all the parties and got all the dates. And in turn, the introverted geeks got ridiculed and bullied by the same cool classmates. As an adult though, life has changed, and it's rather foolish to hang to those old grudges.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Well extraverts are _generally_ regarded by society as more "normal" and "healthy", while introverts are _generally_ the ones people think need to change. So is it any wonder introverts feel some animosity? Just saying.


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Well extraverts are _generally_ regarded by society as more "normal" and "healthy", while introverts are _generally_ the ones people think need to change. So is it any wonder introverts feel some animosity? Just saying.


Just wanted to say something similar. I am a little older than most of you and when I was young there was none to little attention for introvert versus extrovert. Since it has been 'discovered' a lot of people now 'finally' have an excuse why they don't like extrovert activities. Or being a couch potato or something.

But then again: I fully agree with TS, let's give eachother some space and credit. We were all thrown out here 'as is'.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Well extraverts are _generally_ regarded by society as more "normal" and "healthy", while introverts are _generally_ the ones people think need to change. So is it any wonder introverts feel some animosity? Just saying.


Yeah, fuck all those grown ups that wanted me to play and make friends when I didn't feel like it because it would make me more "normal". Extraverts _are/were_ the "normal".


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Now that I think of it, much of my identity crisis in junior high was because I was an introvert in an extravert's world. Extraverts are receiving a little animosity on PerC. Naturally it'll happen that way. I don't wanna promote it, but I also don't particularly care. Sorry.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> If I have a resentment towards extraverts, it is most likely rooted in my memories of grade school. Extraverts were the "cool" ones, the jocks and the preppies, who went to all the parties and got all the dates. And in turn, the introverted geeks got ridiculed and bullied by the same cool classmates. As an adult though, life has changed, and it's rather foolish to hang to those old grudges.


The most likely reality was that half of those “cool kids” were likely introverts and half of the geeks were likely extroverts…


As someone who was “the geek” myself… those lines aren’t drawn at introvert and extrovert.

Also… there is probably nothing anyone hates more than a socially awkward extrovert. Social awkwardness is actually not the same as introversion or extroversion.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Well extraverts are _generally_ regarded by society as more "normal" and "healthy", while introverts are _generally_ the ones people think need to change. So is it any wonder introverts feel some animosity? Just saying.


Which society? Many societies prefer introversion.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Now that I think of it, much of my identity crisis in junior high was because I was an introvert in an extravert's world. Extraverts are receiving a little animosity on PerC. Naturally it'll happen that way. I don't wanna promote it, but I also don't particularly care. Sorry.


I’m not feeling animosity so much as, I’m feeling prejudice. Think of people who were nice to you in junior high… were they extroverts or introverts or a mix? I’m an extrovert and junior high was rough… really rough. Extroverts are not immune to difficulties in social life or bullying or anything else that is difficult… of course not, right?


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

I am an introvert and I was cool.


Still am, actually


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Llyralen said:


> Which society? Many societies prefer introversion.


The society for which I was expected and pressured to be more of an extravert. 

But I no longer go to school or have to work, so I don't care as much as I did, and I also don't need more friends nowadays, so I can mostly stick to the ones I have.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Necrofantasia said:


> I love extroverts, I can put them between myself and other people. They get their energy and I bring the focus away from me.
> 
> It's like classes in an RPG. A party made of only one type tends to be boring and inefficient.


So you're a support character (healer or buffer) and the extroverts are your tanks?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> The most likely reality was that half of those “cool kids” were likely introverts and half of the geeks were likely extroverts…
> 
> Can you see that maybe?
> 
> ...


Yep, I was the sore thumb that kept getting knocked down for not understanding (or following) the social dynamics. The more I tried to "fit in" the sillier I looked until I realized I didn't have to fit in and I just started being myself. That's when I really started making friends.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> The society for which I was expected and pressured to be more of an extravert.
> 
> But I no longer go to school or have to work, so I don't care as much as I did, and I also don't need more friends nowadays, so I can mostly stick to the ones I have.


I explain it thusly. Our society has a denotative and connotative meaning of the words introvert and extrovert. Denotative is the more formal and rigid meaning. Connotative is the more broadly assumed meaning. 

The denotative is more in line with MBTI: where we get our energy, inwards or outwards? The connotative is the meaning where, if you're introverted, you're seen as a socially awkward, shy hermit, and extroversion is somehow seen as being the more advantageous state of being.

It is up to all of us to fight back against the inaccurate assumption of the connotative meaning and demonstrate that both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. Both are equally healthy and useful approaches to understanding and interacting with the world around us.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Nannerl said:


> Extroverts have the physical world dominated, can't we have the virtual one smh


I don't think it works that way. Despite my being an extrovert, much of what I do, say, and work with pertains to topics that tend to be more theoretical (and therefore virtual).


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> The society for which I was expected and pressured to be more of an extravert.
> 
> But I no longer go to school or have to work, so I don't care as much as I did, and I also don't need more friends nowadays, so I can mostly stick to the ones I have.


I would like to understand better what your experience feels like. I dont want to put more pressure on just you, though, so dont feel like you have to respond. My next statements just talk about my thoughts on pressure in general as I want to discuss that, but again, I am not trying to single you out, so only feel like responding to this is you’re moved to. 

I know what it feels like to feel pressure as I’ve had social anxiety off and on… but do I know what this is like for every introvert? No. But I think there’s this misconception that extroverts don’t feel social pressures at all when we are lumped into a group. Thinking about individual extroverts, it becomes clear that pressure isn’t something extroverted individuals are immune to. You can get rejected by family or friends and carry the baggage from that and be an extrovert.

Getting back to society, though, Is presenting and putting yourself and what you’ve created out there to be judged by others just something that is part of the pressures of being human and living with each other? 


Would the pressure be different for introverts in a society that prefers introverts?? Would they not have any social gatherings or would they not ask kids to present reports to the class? Actually that would be a question for the introverts here from Japan, Sweden, Norway, Finland, etc…did they feel pressured to get out of their comfort zone and do they blame extroverts for that? It would be an incorrect assumption that all extroverts don’t feel pressure when it’s time to public speak, or to go to a big social gathering. Extroverts can have fears with these things. We are individuals. Not to put extra pressure on you, though. Thanks for participating and letting your voice be heard.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I guess I’d have to ask you and more introverts more questions on what this pressure feels like. Is social anxiety just introversion? I don’t think so. I think extroverts and introverts can have social anxiety.
> 
> We all have to put some thing out into the universe that is going to get judged by others and that’s not always easy.
> 
> ...


Seeing as you and I belong to two of the more "ambiverted" extroverted types, so maybe we have a slightly different perspective?


----------



## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I guess I’d have to ask you and more introverts more questions on what this pressure feels like. Is social anxiety just introversion? I don’t think so. I think extroverts and introverts can have social anxiety.
> 
> We all have to put some thing out into the universe that is going to get judged by others and that’s not always easy.
> 
> ...


yeah didn’t you know, us extroverts never feel any pressure, have 100% confidence at all times and our lives are perfect. We don’t need to worry about job interviews at all cuz we are extroverted so everything is handed to us on a plate like everything else in our perfect lives.


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> yeah didn’t you know, us extroverts never feel any pressure, have 100% confidence at all times and our lives are perfect. We don’t need to worry about job interviews at all cuz we are extroverted so everything is handed to us on a plate like everything else in our perfect lives.


Lol do you think us introverts would like to trade places with an extrovert? We know your life is not perfect 😂


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

1to9 said:


> Lol do you think us introverts would like to trade places with an extrovert? We know your life is not perfect 😂


I have no idea to be honest.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

1to9 said:


> Lol do you think us introverts would like to trade places with an extrovert? We know your life is not perfect 😂


I hope not. I'm of the POV that everyone has something to contribute just as they are. There's nothing wrong with learning and growing and becoming better at things, but to expect a fundamental aspect of one's personal preferences MUST change in order for that person to better integrate into society is far beyond the scope of necessary change. To borrow a guru from my youth: 

"I like you just the way you are." - Mr. Rogers


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I don't think it works that way. Despite my being an extrovert, much of what I do, say, and work with pertains to topics that tend to be more theoretical (and therefore virtual).
> 
> View attachment 906100


So, basically, you're an extrovert who gets pushed by more extroverted extroverts. ish. 

it joke


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## lww23 (Mar 7, 2021)

Is there an agreed-upon definition of introversion and extraversion here? I assume that, as typology enthusiasts, we don't just consider the E/I difference to be based solely on sociality, right?

That personality scale is very interesting! As a person who consistently gets >90% I on various Big Five tests, I guess I'm an extreme introvert somewhere at the left end of the spectrum. Not sure about my type at this point, but I think it'll be a miracle to have an E type as my true type. Still, as I see it, many tests tend to measure E/I based on sociality, e.g., generosity, gregariousness, physical activeness, etc. They have missed the point, in my view. These are manifestations of extraversion, not extraversion itself on a psychological level. 

My take? The tests (those I've taken) are not quite accurate and need to be reexamined. 

The world tends to favor extraverts, imo. Their willingness to engage with reality is rewarded with more opportunities, more social networks, and even more positive conditions for success. Extraverts tend to be better at making things happen and making themselves known, while introverts tend to be better at going into more depth and making more self-discoveries. Both types are indispensable to human civilization, these two temperaments complement each other. 

Perhaps on both sides, the E and I can be further divided into many subtypes, so that they are no longer primarily about sociality. This again is about psychometrics. I think psychologists should do a better job of investigating E/I and find out more about the sub-types. 

Who are extraverts and who are introverts, after all?

As I study personality types, I find that the E/I misconception tends to be even more widespread than previously expected. People still tend to automatically assume a quiet person is an introvert. Being quiet or not, shy or not, anxious or not, etc. are not the key factors of the E/I difference.

An introvert is a person whose primary drive is constantly internal, an extravert, external, whatever that is. We engage in far more extraverting than introverting, on a daily basis. For example, going online, reading a book, posting on social media, etc. - any activity that requires interaction with the objective reality can be said as extraverting. The difference lies in the degree of extraversion. If attending a large party is an activity of high E, then reading an article online is of low E, but it is still extraverted because you are interacting with the outside world, even though passively and by yourself.

What activities are introverting, then? You interact with your inner world, like, meditation, thinking, talking to yourself, dreaming, etc. 

A cognitive extravert may be less sociable but they are still E. Why? Because their preferred focus is not the self but the outside world. The rise of the Internet and social media have enabled many Es to embrace the outside reality without even going outside. Contrary to the popular belief, which tends to associate introversion with high Internet use, nowadays, many E types are also active online - virtual extraversion and digital extraversion are still E, not I. And, these are extraverted activities conducted by the conscious mind. Perhaps ES types might still strongly favor physical activities outdoors and social events to gain sensory enjoyment, but they are just one sub-type of extraverts. 

Conclusion? - tests are not so accurate. We need a further understanding of E/I. Perhaps after more closely examining your own personality, you will find that you are an E mistyped as an I, or vice versa.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

lww23 said:


> Is there an agreed-upon definition of introversion and extraversion here? I assume that, as typology enthusiasts, we don't just consider the E/I difference to be based solely on sociality, right?
> 
> That personality scale is very interesting! As a person who consistently gets >90% I on various Big Five tests, I guess I'm an extreme introvert somewhere at the left end of the spectrum. Not sure about my type at this point, but I think it'll be a miracle to have an E type as my true type. Still, as I see it, many tests tend to measure E/I based on sociality, e.g., generosity, gregariousness, physical activeness, etc. They have missed the point, in my view. These are manifestations of extraversion, not extraversion itself on a psychological level.
> 
> ...


Yes, I brought up the distinction between the connotative and the denotative meaning of extroverted and introverted. The connotative meaning goes into how it is defined in a more broad social sense, whereas the denotative meaning falls closer to the dictionary definition. Connotatively is where we get this image of the introvert being a severely shy loner who has no friends and hardly ever comes out of their room, whereas the extrovert is this socially aware "life of the party" who's "go getter" and everyone knows and loves them. 

When we talk about MBTI, we're actually talking about cognitive function preferences as much as anything else. Being introverted means your dominant cognitive function preference is introverted. Being extroverted means your dominant cognitive function preference is extroverted. If you take a look either myself or @Llyralen's dominant function, we're both Ne dom. Extroverted iNtuition is taking in external stimuli/data and seeing abstract patterns in it, but a lot of it is intangible and theoretical in nature. How we process that data is vastly different, but it is still the "filter" upon which we examine the world, so there's a lot of internalizing going on, despite us being extroverts. A lot of ENTPs and ENFPs are considered either "Ambiverted" or "The most Introverted of the Extroverts" because we don't always need to be around people and interact. We do a lot of individual analysis and then go out into the larger world to test it with others. We can be charming and interact with others, but we're far from the most aggressive social beings you're going to run into (unless you back us into a corner and force us to take a stand). 

I see the I/E question as a spectrum. Some types are far more introverted than others. Some are far more extroverted than others. There's a great deal of "wiggle room" in between. This is why I like this particular chart so much (and why I've posted it multiple times in this thread): 









Do you think this gives us a broader basis for discussion here? Does it treat any one or any group of types unfairly, or do you suppose it's straightforward and objective enough for us to continue?


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I get annoyed with people who say I can't be a 5w6 and an ENTP.


I can see why. 

I get annoyed specifically with enny and type speculation at times too. But then I also just think of the platform representation is sorta one dimensional. To a large degree I expose a lot more insecurity and arrogance on here than I ever do IRL as far as free therapy goes. Which is definitely an aspect of me yeah. 

I had someone insist I was type 3. And more people type me as 8. I KNOW why. I totally get why they suggested it. Because on here I really would come off that way. Especially when bitching about work so much . But I have even had my kids answer enny tests as they know me best in motivations just to still always result in 7w6 which alotta people say is mythical and not likely for top enny. I totally know I have 8 & 3 in my tri yes. But I am positive my main one is definitely hands down 7w6. My daughter who obviously knows me extremely well who is also informed on enneagram laughed that someone insisted I was type 3. Again I told her I know why because I am a workaholic and I reference people alot here. But key thing missing in my motivations, I am not a workaholic or into socialization with the emphasis on status. I am far more insecure and scaredy and get anxiety like a 6 and lost at sea like a damn 7


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen Perhaps this speaks to my own prejudices and preconceptions, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around a "socially awkward extravert." I know that social anxiety can afflict extraverts too, but once again my imagination is failing me. Can you give me an example from literature, tv or film?


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

CountZero said:


> Perhaps this speaks to my own prejudices and preconceptions, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around a "socially awkward extravert." I know that social anxiety can afflict extraverts too, but once again my imagination is failing me. Can you give me an example from literature, tv or film?


I know you directed the topic at her. 

I just wanted to say when I read this I chuckled. It made me think of my INFP daughter. Like something she would say to me. 

Anytime I try to suggest to her I am introverted, or socially awkward she busts out laughing. She constantly has told me I do not have social anxiety. I try to tell her continually I consider myself an awkward fuck, and that I too get nervous and feel awkward. Her response over and over again is to tell me that if that is awkward she wished to be awkward to. To her at least according to her, I am 'smooth'. I was looking at her mind blown, lol. I was like how the hell can you girls joke I am the 'the hot mess express', and a goofball, or forward/foot in mouth syndrome... Yet then think I would not have social awkwardness. I think it is just because she sees me blurt or act out she may assume I am not ever socially awkward. I am not sure. I can think of plenty of times I feel overwhelmed but I just sorta push on. I have a knack for saying uncomfortable things I later blush over or play back in my head.


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Damn, those extroverts... I hate them from the bottom of my soul, I'd like to see them disintegrated in flames.

Once these very loud individuals made me play soccer with them when I was little, they were about 5 years older than me and I ended up as goalkeeper, surely if I had been a striker I would have been the new Messi, plus they had the audacity to call me turtle, you know... because they hide.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

0.M.I.A.0 said:


> I know you directed the topic at her.
> 
> I just wanted to say when I read this I chuckled. It made me think of my INFP daughter. Like something she would say to me.
> 
> Anytime I try to suggest to her I am introverted, or socially awkward she busts out laughing. She constantly has told me I do not have social anxiety. I try to tell her continually I consider myself an awkward fuck, and that I too get nervous and feel awkward. Her response over and over again is to tell me that if that is awkward she wished to be awkward to. To her at least according to her, I am 'smooth'. I was looking at her mind blown, lol. I was like how the hell can you girls joke I am the 'the hot mess express', and a goofball, or forward/foot in mouth syndrome... Yet then think I would not have social awkwardness. I think it is just because she sees me blurt or act out she may assume I am not ever socially awkward. I am not sure. I can think of plenty of times I feel overwhelmed but I just sorta push on. I have a knack for saying uncomfortable things I later blush over or play back in my head.


LOL it may simply be a matter of perspective. Looking at @tanstaafl28's chart, us INFPs are at the far end of introversion. Practically everyone looks like an extravert to us.

More seriously, it is not unusual for me to score in the 99th percentile on whatever introversion scale I'm being tested on. But to flip that on its head a bit, I also score in 90+ percentile for amiability (or is it agreeability?) as well. That means I get along great with my co-workers and relatives, but I rarely seek out opportunities to be social. I can also be persuasive; I have managed to talk my way out of some dangerous situations. But being around people is just exhausting. Constantly having to pay attention, sifting through all the simultaneous conversations, thinking of the right thing to say and suppressing the urge to blurt out something ill-considered requires a hell of a lot of effort.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

CountZero said:


> LOL it may simply be a matter of perspective. Looking at @tanstaafl28's chart, us INFPs are at the far end of introversion. Practically everyone looks like an extravert to us.
> 
> More seriously, it is not unusual for me to score in the 99th percentile on whatever introversion scale I'm being tested on. But to flip that on its head a bit, I also score in 90+ percentile for amiability (or is it agreeability?) as well. That means I get along great with my co-workers and relatives, but I rarely seek out opportunities to be social. I can also be persuasive; I have managed to talk my way out of some dangerous situations. But being around people is just exhausting. Constantly having to pay attention, sifting through all the simultaneous conversations, thinking of the right thing to say and suppressing the urge to blurt out something ill-considered requires a hell of a lot of effort.


Whatever it's worth, I've always found your input to be sound and well reasoned. How are you with smaller groups, say maximum 6?


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@tanstaafl28 There's something about a group that's bigger than 4 or so that's really difficult to deal with. I think the largest obstacle I have is dealing with multiple simultaneous conversations. It's really, really hard for me to 'filter out' and ignore other conversations around me, and it's really wearing trying to track two or three different topics at once. Mind you that's also trying to track the subtler nuances and social cues that go along with said conversation, not just the obvious spoken words, though that's hard enough on it's own. It's also more stressful around strangers; are they (for example) a gun enthusiast who will be horribly offended if I mention gun control?


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## sugarbait (7 mo ago)

At least in my country people are mostly introverts. A great majority of people I've met have been either ISTP or ISTJ. These two types are so extremely dominant in Chile that sometimes it feels like there are no other types around. Most of my experience in this life has consisted of people telling me to shut up, to be quiet,to have a less expressive face(not even kidding, people getting mad at me for emoting too much is an incredibly regular occurrence) and to move less(I have the habit of walking around aimlessly). I still don't hate introverts because I think I'd be an idiot if I did. Be more like me, I'm cool and based and gigachad.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@sugarbait Hey gigachad, can you hook me up with a hot Chilean babe? LOL...

More seriously, is that the kind of stereotype you find yourself having to deal with?


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## sugarbait (7 mo ago)

CountZero said:


> @sugarbait Hey gigachad, can you hook me up with a hot Chilean babe? LOL...
> 
> More seriously, is that the kind of stereotype you find yourself having to deal with?


Yup! It's tiring, but I'd rather work on myself and think of my own needs. Letting the people that do me wrong live in my head rent free is not gonna get me anywhere.
And I don't even mean "get me anywhere" in the "grind and get money" way, but in the "become happy" way. 
By doing things that I like, like eating nice food or listening to my favorite music, I end up feeling good. By thinking about people that I dislike and recalling bad memories, I end up feeling bad. And It's not worth it.


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## PeachieKeene (11 mo ago)

Nannerl said:


> Extroverts have the physical world dominated, can't we have the virtual one smh


It’s not a competition it’s immature and catty


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## PeachieKeene (11 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Yeah, fuck all those grown ups that wanted me to play and make friends when I didn't feel like it because it would make me more "normal". Extraverts _are/were_ the "normal".


I’m sorry but this is a childish mentality. Instead of stopping the cycle by not ostracizing extraverts you continue to do the same thing that they did to you but you feel it’s cathartic somehow.


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## TranscendingEnlightenment (7 mo ago)

I'm an introvert. I have a hard time liking people. It doesn't matter whether they are extroverts or introverts. I'd literally hate fame causing idiots screaming at me while stupidly feeling entitled to autographs or making my life be in danger. This is why I prefer having a low profile life where not many people know me anywhere.

It's not that I'm shy. It's that I prefer thinking rather than talking. Also, I don't like small talk.

I'd rather be a lone loser than fake.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Llyralen said:


> I would like to understand better what your experience feels like. I dont want to put more pressure on just you, though, so dont feel like you have to respond. My next statements just talk about my thoughts on pressure in general as I want to discuss that, but again, I am not trying to single you out, so only feel like responding to this is you’re moved to.
> 
> I know what it feels like to feel pressure as I’ve had social anxiety off and on… but do I know what this is like for every introvert? No. But I think there’s this misconception that extroverts don’t feel social pressures at all when we are lumped into a group. Thinking about individual extroverts, it becomes clear that pressure isn’t something extroverted individuals are immune to. You can get rejected by family or friends and carry the baggage from that and be an extrovert.
> 
> ...


I find it awful how much extravert prejudice is around. But I was like it when I was a bit younger, finally understanding why I didn't fit in and stuff. I think it's more younger people or people who are just in touch with their identity and want to blame others for their problems. Extraverts are an easy target.

I'm not saying nobody has problems dealing with extravert and introvert problems, but all problems and blame might get lumped on extraverts. A blanket target.

I'm sorry you've experienced prejudice on this website. It's also usually people who are new to MBTI and don't understand all the functions and everything.

It's ridiculous someone could actually think extraverts don't have problems. That's just absurd. Hope you'll be alright.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

PeachieKeene said:


> I’m sorry but this is a childish mentality. Instead of stopping the cycle by not ostracizing extraverts you continue to do the same thing that they did to you but you feel it’s cathartic somehow.


How am I really ostracizing extraverts? I was more ostracizing society's attitude toward the extravert/introvert divide. I bet a lot of extraverts don't even play a part in that. You seemed to squeeze out from that that I simply said "I hate extraverts!", but there's more nuance to it than that. Its simply the case that extraverts and extraversion have been more preferred in my society in my experience. That doesn't mean its every extravert's fault. Duh.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Gotta love being called out for someone else's own stupid interpretation of something I said.


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

PeachieKeene said:


> It’s not a competition it’s immature and catty


It was a joke since introverts don't really dominate the virtual world either... at least not on Tik Tok and apps alike, but yeah, I get it.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Nannerl said:


> It was a joke since introverts don't really dominate the virtual world either... at least not on Tik Tok and apps alike, but yeah, I get it.


If you want to dominate it, then go and dominate it. What would an introvert dominated social platform look like anyway. Would it be full of non-existant posts, due to the people posting being stuck in their inner world?

"Power must be taken, it is never given" - Beyonce Knowles


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> If you want to dominate it, then go and dominate it. What would an introvert dominated social platform look like anyway. Would it be full of non-existant posts, due to the people posting being stuck in their inner world?
> 
> "Power must be taken, it is never given" - Beyonce Knowles


Maybe the way some have found is discriminating extroverts.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Nannerl said:


> Maybe the way some have found is discriminating extroverts.


You make it sound like a battle its not. Before I knew the difference between introversion and extroversion, I thought that a lot of people I now know to be introverted were anti-scoial. Once I found out about introverts needing private time to recharge more often, it sort of clicked.

Now I am not the representitive of all Extroverts. But I can't be the only one, who did not know this stuff. After living a life of not experiencing something, its kind of hard to understand. 

However, I guess the thing is, introverts are forced to extrovert in day to day life to some extent. Probably nowhere near as much now working from home is a thing and the widespread of social media letting people socialise not in person. But there is no reason for extroverts to be forced to introvert in life that I can think. I honestly can't think of a way that would happen to be honest.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> I honestly can't think of a way that would happen to be honest.


I can rather easily, actually. Enforced isolation usually happens in a career context. Think of an extrovert forced to work on night shift by themself or as a forest ranger by economic necessity.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

CountZero said:


> I can rather easily, actually. Enforced isolation usually happens in a career context. Think of an extrovert forced to work on night shift by themself or as a forest ranger by economic necessity.


Fair point, kind of been there but had a shift partner. Although he loved it (he was very heavily introverted), I hated the nights and working weekends. Especially if systems were not crashing. If everything went smoothly, I would just watch the clock, counting down the hours of my life wasting away, never to be claimed back or used productively. But long story short, I left that place. That wasn't the key reason, but one of many.


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## lww23 (Mar 7, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Yes, I brought up the distinction between the connotative and the denotative meaning of extroverted and introverted. The connotative meaning goes into how it is defined in a more broad social sense, whereas the denotative meaning falls closer to the dictionary definition. Connotatively is where we get this image of the introvert being a severely shy loner who has no friends and hardly ever comes out of their room, whereas the extrovert is this socially aware "life of the party" who's "go getter" and everyone knows and loves them.
> 
> When we talk about MBTI, we're actually talking about cognitive function preferences as much as anything else. Being introverted means your dominant cognitive function preference is introverted. Being extroverted means your dominant cognitive function preference is extroverted. If you take a look either myself or @Llyralen's dominant function, we're both Ne dom. Extroverted iNtuition is taking in external stimuli/data and seeing abstract patterns in it, but a lot of it is intangible and theoretical in nature. How we process that data is vastly different, but it is still the "filter" upon which we examine the world, so there's a lot of internalizing going on, despite us being extroverts. A lot of ENTPs and ENFPs are considered either "Ambiverted" or "The most Introverted of the Extroverts" because we don't always need to be around people and interact. We do a lot of individual analysis and then go out into the larger world to test it with others. We can be charming and interact with others, but we're far from the most aggressive social beings you're going to run into (unless you back us into a corner and force us to take a stand).
> 
> ...


----------------------
Yes, I agree. In terms of types, the E/I is determined by the dominant function, but those are preferences. People can be much more flexible than their types may suggest. 

I think that the scale provides us a general understanding of which type is located in the E/I dichotomy, in the most general sense. A spectrum, rather than a dichotomy, is a good idea. It's quite straightforward and objective enough  

In theory, Ne doms are, in general, ambiverts. This can be explained not only by Ne's preference for possibilities in the external world rather than anything concrete and tangible but also, by the relative lack of active sensing functions. As I understand it, to the Ne dom, Se is the 4th shadow function that can be seen as completely detached from the person and rarely used. Because Se is the concrete sensory reality and Ne almost completely blocks Se, some Ne doms can display a general indifference to the outside reality or external objects. It is such an indifference that sometimes makes the Ne dom look like an introvert. 

Also, Si, subjective sensation, is unconscious in the Jungian model, and constantly suppressed by dom Ne as well. So, an Ne dom can also display a lack of attention to or a general indifference toward subjective and internal sensations. This means that, in terms of functions, the Ne dom can be said as the most distant/ resistant toward sensation. Individuals, of course, can show various preferences, but in general, Ne doms can be mistaken for introverts whereas they are actually cognitive extraverts.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

It’s amusingly ironic considering Jung presented extroversion as a pure and noble attitude. And even further, communities like this have an introverted intuitive bias, which according to Daddio, are nothing but nutjobs and defects.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

lww23 said:


> ----------------------
> Yes, I agree. In terms of types, the E/I is determined by the dominant function, but those are preferences. People can be much more flexible than their types may suggest.
> 
> I think that the scale provides us a general understanding of which type is located in the E/I dichotomy, in the most general sense. A spectrum, rather than a dichotomy, is a good idea. It's quite straightforward and objective enough
> ...


I often remind people that cognitive functions are preferences. It is my belief that we discover the ones that work best for us when we are very young and are trying to make sense of the world around us with limited resources. As we grow and develop, our preferences do as well. We are able to incorporate other cognitive functions into our skillset, but the ones that belong to our core type will always remain our "go to" because experience has taught us they give us the best results. As for how we become an introvert or an extrovert, I think that opens up the whole "nature vs. nurture" can of worms. There are factors that include genetics, caregivers, environment, and experience.

For example, I would have been the "poster boy" for ADHD as a child. I was wild, I was loud, I was out of control, I had no notion of social norms of any kind. As a result of this, my social development lagged behind my peer group. At best I got shunned, at worst I got bullied. I had no choice but to learn how to be alone even though, looking back, there were times I was dreadfully lonely. Books became my friends, and as a result, my reading comprehension was in the 98th percentile by the time I was in the 7th grade (my math hovered around 28 percentile). My verbal linguistic intelligence is still my strongest trait, and helped me mightily in the Navy and in earning my BS and MS later on in life. Eventually, I did catch up socially and I learned the "polite rules" of being around other people without saying cringeworthy things. I learned how to bite my tongue and not feel a need to blurt out everything I knew about something. I started letting other people tell me what they knew instead. I asked them questions (even if I already had a pretty good grasp of the topic) and found I could create a better interaction with others by allowing conversations to flow naturally instead of attempting to constantly dominate them. Again, I am not saying this is the reason I'm more ambiverted than anything else, but I would suspect it is a key influence.

I get into modes where I'm doing deep dives on something that takes me down a rabbit hole and I'll eventually come up for air and realize I need to test out my latest concept or hypothesis on others to see how it actually stacks up. Bouncing my ideas off others helps me refine my notions; it is also a great way to separate the wheat from the chaff. My Ne is very broad based and "big picture" as one might expect.









Are You Born an Introvert, or Do You Become One?


Do people “learn” to be introverts as they grow up, or are we introverts from birth? In other words, what makes you an introvert — your genes, your upbringing, or some mix of both?




introvertdear.com













Your DNA determines whether you're an introvert or an extrovert — here's how to tell which one you are


You were born this way.




www.businessinsider.com













Two sides, one story: Is introversion genetic or environmental?


What makes you an introvert—your genes or your upbringing?



www.rubiconline.com













Why Introverts and Extroverts Are Different: The Science


Wonder why introverts and extroverts are such opposites? Here is a scientific breakdown of key differences in the ways each personality's brain is wired.




quietrev.com







https://gizmodo.com/the-science-behind-extroversion-and-introversion-1282059791


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Infinitus said:


> It’s amusingly ironic considering Jung presented extroversion as a pure and noble attitude. And even further, communities like this have an introverted intuitive bias, which according to Daddio, are nothing but nutjobs and defects.


Is this the same man who said Te-doms can be tyrants in the eyes of their children? Or that Ne-doms squander their lives?
... he loved none of us. If he presented something as noble, it was in the eyes of society, not his, because he would proceed to list all the ways in which we are wack. May we find solace in that.


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## Infinitus (Jul 12, 2019)

DOGSOUP said:


> Is this the same man who said Te-doms can be tyrants in the eyes of their children? Or that Ne-doms squander their lives?
> ... he loved none of us. If he presented something as noble, it was in the eyes of society, not his, because he would proceed to list all the ways in which we are wack. May we find solace in that.


Thanks for the inspiration. 🙏


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Llyralen said:


> Would the pressure be different for introverts in a society that prefers introverts?? Would they not have any social gatherings or would they not ask kids to present reports to the class? Actually that would be a question for the introverts here from Japan, Sweden, Norway, Finland, etc…did they feel pressured to get out of their comfort zone and do they blame extroverts for that?


I don't think I ever felt much pressure in _that_ sense. In fact at times I felt I was "too" lively/temperamental for my culture in some ways, though I definitely mellowed out by now. When it comes to being pressured, while it did have something to do with social expectations that I wasn't comfortable with, it wasn't about being sociable as such, more like being expected to act a certain way (random example but I still hate wearing dresses because I was told as a kid that I must sit in a certain way while wearing one loool - now there's obviously a practical side that realization but the part of it that is type related is that I could not associate myself with the (arche)types that wore such dresses, yes, felt like a clown).

But I will say that a lot of people understand the need for peace and quiet - I think that's what a lot of introverts like - myself not so much but I do like having my own space. Living alone is common even though it's not always practical imo.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

DOGSOUP said:


> I don't think I ever felt much pressure in _that_ sense. In fact at times I felt I was "too" lively/temperamental for my culture in some ways, though I definitely mellowed out by now. When it comes to being pressured, while it did have something to do with social expectations that I wasn't comfortable with, it wasn't about being sociable as such, more like being expected to act a certain way (random example but I still hate wearing dresses because I was told as a kid that I must sit in a certain way while wearing one loool - now there's obviously a practical side that realization but the part of it that is type related is that I could not associate myself with the (arche)types that wore such dresses, yes, felt like a clown).
> 
> But I will say that a lot of people understand the need for peace and quiet - I think that's what a lot of introverts like - myself not so much but I do like having my own space. Living alone is common even though it's not always practical imo.


I read somewhere that our introversion or extroversion is not a fixed point, but exists on a continuum, sort of like a thermostat. We have a "sweet spot" where we feel most comfortable, but we also have a range between two set points that we can operate without too much difficulty. People around us who think that introversion is some sort of ailment (it isn't) trying to pull them out of their shell when they aren't in the mood are trying to mess with their thermostat, and a lot of the time, the reaction is going to be unpleasant, therefore, the impression this gives people is that introverts are grumpy hermits who shun social situations because they don't like people. It's bullshit, but I suppose that's part of the reason why people seem to think introverts always get the short end of the stick when mostly, they're quite happy doing their own thing.


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> You make it sound like a battle its not.


I mean, I was simply replying to this:


recycled_lube_oil said:


> If you want to dominate it, then go and dominate it.


Indeed, it is not a battle, but in some scenarios, specially during social exchanges, there is a style of power imbalance, perhaps - Naturally, the one who speaks is the one who is heard. But, as I stated, it was a joke. Prejudice from both sides is nonsense.


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## PeachieKeene (11 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Gotta love being called out for someone else's own stupid interpretation of something I said.


How are you getting defensive for my interpretation of what you posted? If you wanted blind adoration that wasn’t going to happen, but yes it’s “stupid” only on the basis that I disagree with your baseless bloviated rant


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

PeachieKeene said:


> How are you getting defensive for my interpretation of what you posted? If you wanted blind adoration that wasn’t going to happen, but yes it’s “stupid” only on the basis that I disagree with your baseless bloviated rant


*WHIPCRACK*


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## Zosio (Mar 17, 2015)

All you adorable personality newbs arguing about Extroversion vs Introversion 


* *




When the real battle is between Sensors and iNuitives. Don't get distracted!


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

PeachieKeene said:


> How are you getting defensive for my interpretation of what you posted? If you wanted blind adoration that wasn’t going to happen, but yes it’s “stupid” only on the basis that I disagree with your baseless bloviated rant


Whatever. I'm done. I didn't even bother thinking about what you just said because these sort of dick measuring contests aren't worth the energy. I already explained that I wasn't ostracizing extraverts as you said. That's all there is.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

Zosio said:


> When the real battle is between Sensors and iNuitives. Don't get distracted!


I'll get distracted if I... hey is that a squirrel?





P.S. Telling someone with ADHD to not get distracted is like telling a duck to not quack.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

tanstaafl28 said:


> *WHIPCRACK*


Not sure what this means tbh.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I'm not some angry maladjusted 18 year old that despises extraverts because I expressed in a single soundbite that I was wrongly pushed into being more social as a kid and didn't like it. Wtf?


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I'm not some angry maladjusted 18 year old that despises extraverts because I expressed in a single soundbite that I was wrongly pushed into being more social as a kid and didn't like it. Wtf?


Introverts pushes introverts to explore/experience as well in fact it’s hard for me to imagine any Perceiving dom and to a certain extent Fe dom forcing anyone to explore /socialize against their own will for no reason . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

ai.tran.75 said:


> it’s hard for me to imagine any Perceiving dom and to a certain extent Fe dom forcing anyone to explore /socialize against their own will for no reason
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly! Its not all about extraverts and introverts, which is why I was never saying I blame or despise extraverts as a group for my childhood experiences. I mean a number of those teachers, other adults, and kids that pressured me probably weren't even extraverts, but they were just going along with the prevalent societal attitudes and biases, which is just what human nature tends to do.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Introverts pushes introverts to explore/experience as well in fact it’s hard for me to imagine any Perceiving dom and to a certain extent Fe dom forcing anyone to explore /socialize against their own will for no reason .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I barely ever fixate on this whole introvert/extravert thing anyways. Anyone who looks back at my posting history (its public) will see that. But I just happened to read this thread, so I chimed in about my own experiences, which are after all relevant to this thread, and are my real experiences.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I barely ever fixate on this whole introvert/extravert thing anyways. Anyone who looks back at my posting history (its public) will see that. But I just happened to read this thread, so I chimed in about my own experiences, which are after all relevant to this thread, and are my real experiences.


In defense of OP- there has been an extreme bias towards extroversion , to the point that it makes some extrovert afraid to be friendly or start conversation with strangers bc they’ll get shut down upon. My 4 years old son got scolded for jumping up and down excitedly when he saw his classmate in real life and I have people ( strangers ) lecturing him and telling me “ I bet he’s a handful.” He’s actually extremely well behaved - just he doesn’t stop talking . 

Within the East Asian community- extroversion is looked down upon , family and friends will blatantly state aloud that they are embarrassed by someone for being friendly ( why are you saying hi to a stranger ) . There’s a quote saying fools are loud - those who are quiet listens ( something along that line .) 

I think societal pressure shouldn’t be link towards introversion/extroversion but lately since introversion have bc a trend - extroverts have been getting tons of hates and wrong assumptions are thrown upon them . More so on PerC . 

I’m ambivert and for my case - I do have the best of both world ( as in I’m lucky ) , I’m never bored and I don’t have social anxiety 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

ai.tran.75 said:


> In defense of OP- there has been an extreme bias towards extroversion , to the point that it makes some extrovert afraid to be friendly or start conversation with strangers bc they’ll get shut down upon. My 4 years old son got scolded for jumping up and down excitedly when he saw his classmate in real life and I have people ( strangers ) lecturing him and telling me “ I bet he’s a handful.” He’s actually extremely well behaved - just he doesn’t stop talking .
> 
> Within the East Asian community- extroversion is looked down upon , family and friends will blatantly state aloud that they are embarrassed by someone for being friendly ( why are you saying hi to a stranger ) . There’s a quote saying fools are loud - those who are quiet listens ( something along that line .)
> 
> ...


You don't have to defend OP. I get it. I was simply saying things from _my_ vantage point. Extraverts have problems like anyone else, yes. Just like white people or straight people have problems. But that doesn't mean it isn't still easier in general for those 3 groups, at least in _my_ society. As far as what goes on in PerC, it still is just a miniscule subset of people in the world, and Idk, kinda doesn't really mean much in the scheme of things, at least imo.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Llyralen said:


> Ive watched videos of two different Ne dom men who both lived in Sweden. They both seemed very quiet and nervous to use their Ne in discussion with the Ne interviewer. They both said that their families sought out medication for them and tried to get them diagnosed with ADD or ADHA because of their talkativeness. They said they were constantly being told to be quiet, to not get excited or enthused, and were regarded as a bit crazy. Yeah, dominant culture suppresses minority no matter which majority it is. Likely Introverted and extroverted people are both born there equally, but introversion is favored.


So, it should be evident why having a clear definition is important in a discussion where traits or behaviors are being collected under a label to make judgements about it. I’m confused because while you acknowledge that issue, and indeed say you are confronting it, it is disregarded in comments like these.

Why is “talkativeness” or “enthusiasm” exclusive to extraverted types, for example? Apparently others are labeling the same behaviors as having attention problems, and these others must be introverts? Because introverts would look unfavorably on talkativeness?

It becomes senseless when you can assign any trait to a group just based on a personal feeling about it. Taking it both ways doesn’t support the inital goal that the validity of these biases should be questioned.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Squirt said:


> So, it should be evident why having a clear definition is important in a discussion where traits or behaviors are being collected under a label to make judgements about it. I’m confused because while you acknowledge that issue, and indeed say you are confronting it, it is disregarded in comments like these.
> 
> Why is “talkativeness” or “enthusiasm” exclusive to extraverted types, for example? Apparently others are labeling the same behaviors as having attention problems, and these others must be introverts? Because introverts would look unfavorably on talkativeness?
> 
> It becomes senseless when you can assign any trait to a group just based on a personal feeling about it. Taking it both ways doesn’t support the inital goal that the validity of these biases should be questioned.


True enough.
If you’d like to do the work on definitions, it would be a welcome addition. I think I explained my approach… to use my analogy again, I don’t feel like “explaining what a Sikh is” would tackle what needs to be tackled, but I guess with no context at all, at it’s Ti core it would leave everything up in the air without definitions. I’m not dismissing you…its just not my way and I find my way to be equally valid. I can see you probably don’t, though. Lol. Fair enough. Go for it if you’d like.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen Funny you mention Robin Williams. I never considered him 'socially awkward' and always thought of him to be more of the 'social butterfly' stereotype with his enthusiasm and off-the-wall humor. 

Speaking of 'social butterflies', that's what my mind automatically goes to when the word extrovert comes up. I do know that there's a 'cognitive extroversion' that regards the outside world, and has little to do with socialization. And I think that stereotype is how many introverts perceive most extroverts.

Thanks for the video. Isolation and alienation seem to be the driving forces behind the depression I've dealt with in the past. I have found that being around people, despite the risk of rejection and the huge effort of trying to process all that incoming information, is very helpful for staving off melancholia. That said, I find that work provides _most_ of the socialization I need to keep on an even keel.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Llyralen said:


> True enough.
> If you’d like to do the work on definitions, it would be a welcome addition. I think I explained my approach… to use my analogy again, I don’t feel like “explaining what a Sikh is” would tackle what needs to be tackled, but I guess with no context at all, at it’s Ti core it would leave everything up in the air without definitions. I’m not dismissing you…its just not my way and I find my way to be equally valid. I can see you probably don’t, though. Lol. Fair enough. Go for it if you’d like.


There is no need to provide an exhaustive definition to work from when it’s already established. If terms are misunderstood/misused or the meaning continuously shifted to avoid validation or relevance, then there is no leg to stand on (for a decent tackle), imo.

Seems like you’re trying to fight fire with fire.

But whatevs. Blaze on.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> @Llyralen Funny you mention Robin Williams. I never considered him 'socially awkward' and always thought of him to be more of the 'social butterfly' stereotype with his enthusiasm and off-the-wall humor.
> 
> Speaking of 'social butterflies', that's what my mind automatically goes to when the word extrovert comes up. I do know that there's a 'cognitive extroversion' that regards the outside world, and has little to do with socialization. And I think that stereotype is how many introverts perceive most extroverts.
> 
> Thanks for the video. Isolation and alienation seem to be the driving forces behind the depression I've dealt with in the past. I have found that being around people, despite the risk of rejection and the huge effort of trying to process all that incoming information, is very helpful for staving off melancholia. That said, I find that work provides _most_ of the socialization I need to keep on an even keel.


What Robin Williams did and what extroverts do is not different from what you do in the last paragraph, you just limit how much you do of it. Not that I can know exactly how someone feels, but… well, we’ve got mirror neurons… I’d say Robin Williams didn’t feel any different from anything you’ve ever felt. He felt deep isolation and alienation. He never really made me laugh in his stand-up. He was hurting too badly for me to not just want to hold him through his routines and tell him he wasn’t alone and that somebody understood.. I couldn’t really watch him without me getting upset. The silliness was a millimeter thick and the pain, isolation and alienation was miles deep. I’ve spoken to other people who couldn’t laugh either because they saw too much pain. I could appreciate his humor and talent, but the isolation was intense.

I’m not sure what social butterfly means emotionally to you, but emotionally it doesn’t feel different than what you are doing in that last paragraph. If you meet new people it feels the same as that, just more often.


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## lww23 (Mar 7, 2021)

Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts!  



tanstaafl28 said:


> As for how we become an introvert or an extrovert, I think that opens up the whole "nature vs. nurture" can of worms. There are factors that include genetics, caregivers, environment, and experience.


I agree completely. Reminds me of something from my childhood. My parents told me that I was a typical extroverted kid until age 4~5. For some reason, I turned toward introversion and became notably quiet and silent. I don't remember that but as far as I can recall, there was no trauma or anything extraordinary that happened during that time. Could be just my nature, could be the differentiation of functions according to Jung, or something else. 



tanstaafl28 said:


> my social development lagged behind my peer group. At best I got shunned, at worst I got bullied. I had no choice but to learn how to be alone even though, looking back, there were times I was dreadfully lonely.


I had a quite lonely childhood with several close friends only. No siblings, no kindergarten, and little knowledge about the outside world until pre-school. I still remember how shocked I was to see so many kids of similar age for the first time. It was like Alice in Wonderland. After the shock, there was fear, anxiety, and withdrawal. My social development severely lacked behind my peers and because of that, I have to spend the rest of my life catching up. Had selective mutism that lasted from around 6 till 15. Also, social anxiety. Many teachers thought I had a communication impairment so they tended to treat me as an eccentric and 'special' student. I guess that the deepest impression people would generally have about me is - quiet, eccentric, and detached, like a shadow, and can be easily neglected. 

I think the main reason in my case is nurture, and also anxiety. These can not only undermine social functions but also, cognition as well. From a young age, I've learned to detach myself from the external world and play the role of an observer. The indifference to reality mainly concerns my surroundings, as I seem to lack the part of human nature that desires social connections. At the same time, I have been curious, and curiosity somehow helps me maintain an abstract connection with the world, mainly through the Internet. 



tanstaafl28 said:


> I started letting other people tell me what they knew instead. I asked them questions (even if I already had a pretty good grasp of the topic) and found I could create a better interaction with others by allowing conversations to flow naturally instead of attempting to constantly dominate them.


I'm still catching up on social skills. I can understand people to some extent, their motives, purposes, feelings, etc. But to connect with people is totally different. 'People' never seem to take priority in my personality development, and I've always focused on things, not people, which leads me to believe that I'm a T type, not F. 

Asking questions is a good idea to keep conversations going. I find that most people do not really care about others but they like to talk about themselves. In social settings, out of politeness, sometimes I don't end a conversation abruptly but instead, allow them to tell me more about themselves. This has been helpful in developing my social skills.

If Jung is right, then I must be either an E or an I at birth, and the E/I attitude cannot be changed by nurture. Also, he mentions that if an E lives as an I, or vice versa, it will lead to neurosis. I guess my anxiety is because of that. It's quite possible. Cognitively, I'm at least E/I balanced, perhaps leaning toward E. Thinking is like healing. The more thinking I do, the less anxious I become, so things are getting better.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Here I am an introvert and I don’t know what to say—what’s allowed.
Stereotypes/ing seems to always get in the way.
How far does it go? How far is acceptable?


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## Lilly93 (Jan 3, 2020)

I'm an introvert. I'm the person who prefers to stay in on a Friday night and read a book rather than going out clubbing. And for the most part, I'm okay with that. I like my alone time, and I'm pretty content with it.
But lately, "I'm an introvert" has started to sound like an excuse. Like I'm using it as a way to avoid social situations or new experiences. And that's not fair to myself – or to the people around me. Just because I'm not the most outgoing person doesn't mean I should miss out on things that could be really great.
So from now on, I'm going to start saying yes more often. I'm going to push myself out of my comfort zone, and I'm going to try new things. Who knows – maybe I'll even surprise myself. And if not, at least I'll know that I tried.
What do you think? Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Do you think there's anything wrong with being an introvert?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Lilly93 said:


> I'm going to push myself out of my comfort zone, and I'm going to try new things. Who knows – maybe I'll even surprise myself. And if not, at least I'll know that I tried.
> What do you think? Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Do you think there's anything wrong with being an introvert?


What a friendly and darling post! I am totally cheering you on! I watched an INFP on a Korean MBTI reality show challenge herself in this way and she amazed everybody! I’m still in awe of her. She didn’t mean to, but she won everyone’s heat. She performed a song using just her hands as a musical instrument, she fixed something nobody else fixed, she went into a room full of only extroverts— she went in crying she was so scared— and this all ended up being hugely rewarding for her and everyone. I remember my husband made a similar goal when he decided to try to date me. I’m so glad he did.

I’m an Ne dom. This we know for sure, I’m an ENFP. On the official MBTI I tested only 1% extrovert, meaning the description doesn’t match me very well. I don’t like parties. If I go , I go out of a sense of duty— of people expecting me there and maybe the possibility that I can bond with someone who feels kind of different like me and maybe I can help them and vice versa. I usually have a difficult time, but I do it. I try to bond with one or two people, and come home wondering what’s wrong with me. Even just today, I was trying to take the Destress-Rx for MBTI types on this page (below). Apart from groups I will get excited to meet new people and find out if there is a connection and find out what they know about and are experts on and if they are nice. I like most people as individuals but I like talking with them one on one. I have 1-3 close friendships. I get sometimes very nervous with group activities and meetings, etc. but I feel a lot of confidence in one on one talks. So of course none of what I told you fits the descriptions. Ne doesn’t have to have people, either for it to be Ne (although people we bond with is wanted) we just have to have ideas… just like an Se dom can be doing an extroverted activity by surfing on their own, and I can by reading or writing— so reading is a lot of my Ne time. I’m constantly reaching for new ideas, whether it be from people or from reading, but then getting to brain-storm with other Ne heavy people (my close friends) is also wonderful. Again, this really doesn’t fit the extroverted descriptions.

I do not feel like anything is wrong with introverts… except my complaint here that sometimes they don’t like extroverts or might think there is a big divide between extrovert and introvert, when I don’t think there is. Also my INTP daughter says she has a hard time thinking while I am singing (I like singing all the time), so we have figured that out as best we can. I can imagine it might be hard for her to think in Ti while I’m singing, so that all makes sense. Otherwise, nothing wrong at all. I very much appreciate you asking everyone. Hopefully you’ll get more replies. 





__





De-Stress Rx – De-Stress-RX







de-stressrx.com


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen I tried to find some old standup by Robin Williams on Youtube to see if I could see any of the alienation and isolation that you perceived in him. And I could see some awkwardness, some desire to be liked. But it obviously didn't strike me in the same way as it did you.

The comedian I have trouble watching is George Carlin, also commonly typed as an ENFP. He is very funny, and offers some incisive social commentary, but the bitterness, cynicism and sadness is just oozing off of him. He's much harder for me to watch than Robin...


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> @Llyralen I tried to find some old standup by Robin Williams on Youtube to see if I could see any of the alienation and isolation that you perceived in him. And I could see some awkwardness, some desire to be liked. But it obviously didn't strike me in the same way as it did you.
> 
> The comedian I have trouble watching is George Carlin, also commonly typed as an ENFP. He is very funny, and offers some incisive social commentary, but the bitterness, cynicism and sadness is just oozing off of him. He's much harder for me to watch than Robin...


George Carlin is much more likely an ENTP, I don’t see feeler in him at all and I don’t know why people would think he has Fi. He is one of my INFP husband’s top favorites, but he is too harsh/angry for me to take except in short doses myself. I can’t even say this is from different sensitivity levels, my husband and I both test as “highly sensitive people”. I think it has to do with my husband growing up with George Carlin, it was his dad’s favorite and his dad loves making fun of “stupid” people. My husband had to learn after high school that anger and criticism werent widely accepted ways to interact with people— I’m saying this at the same time as I can tell you my husband is a sweetheart, he just grew up with a dad pretty much only interested in interacting by discussing anger and “stupid people”. I just mean that liking a certain comedian or not might not have everything to do with type. 

I could see it plainly and maybe some others could and others not, Robin’s pain was always really intense to me. It kind of makes my throat constrict to think about his pain. RIP Robin.


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## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

Dalien said:


> Here I am an introvert and I don’t know what to say—what’s allowed.
> Stereotypes/ing seems to always get in the way.
> How far does it go? How far is acceptable?


Where do definitions end and stereotypes begin? Maybe definitions and arbitrary dichotomies are the problem to begin with, especially ones created with racist, sexist, ableist intent and retrofited for the American corporate workplace. No matter one's views, we all should have _some_ distrust towards such''tools'', before we start distrusting ourselves and others.

If going through an identity crisis, questioning your own behavior and how it fits to said ''tool'' and wondering if you are a stereotype or a real individual, are the by products of a ''tool'' that is defacto made up of boxes, the logical solution would be to reject the ''tool'', not try to imagine what you'd like it to be and try to convince everyone else to follow you. Maybe question why you thought you needed it so much to begin with.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> George Carlin is much more likely an ENTP, I don’t see feeler in him at all and I don’t know why people would think he has Fi. He is one of my INFP husband’s top favorites, but he is too harsh/angry for me to take except in short doses myself. I can’t even say this is from different sensitivity levels, my husband and I both test as “highly sensitive people”. I think it has to do with my husband growing up with George Carlin, it was his dad’s favorite and his dad loves making fun of “stupid” people. My husband had to learn after high school that anger and criticism werent widely accepted ways to interact with people— I’m saying this at the same time as I can tell you my husband is a sweetheart, he just grew up with a dad pretty much only interested in interacting by discussing anger and “stupid people”. I just mean that liking a certain comedian or not might not have everything to do with type.
> 
> I could see it plainly and maybe some others could and others not, Robin’s pain was always really intense to me. It kind of makes my throat constrict to think about his pain. RIP Robin.


I was basing my typing of Carlin off a couple of celebrity typing websites. Some of the comments seem to indicate that Carlin was actually rather kind and amiable in person, rather than the bitter cynic of his stage persona. But I agree he had a rigorously logical mind, and was not bound by tradition or propriety. While I also test as "HSP", I don't appear to be as empathetic/empathic as some, though I can see Carlin's bitterness and anguish. Or perhaps I just have higher threshold for emotional pain. It could also be that I know a bit about his first wife's struggles, and how they embittered Carlin towards the end of his life.

My grandfather sounds like he was much like your father-in-law. He was not a man to "suffer fools" and was in fact quite intelligent. But he could be abrasive, even cruel, though fortunately I was rarely a target.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

mangodelic psycho said:


> Maybe question why you thought you needed it so much to begin with.


You got this out of my post—fascinating.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Dalien said:


> You got this out of my post—fascinating.


Hi Dalien.  I remember you as a poet extraordinaire. 
Do you have any questions for me about my post? Maybe others have them too.


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## PeachieKeene (11 mo ago)

Llyralen said:


> Hi Dalien.  I remember you as a poet extraordinaire.
> Do you have any questions for me about my post? Maybe others have them too.


OTT but are you a typologist by chance?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

PeachieKeene said:


> OTT but are you a typologist by chance?


Not officially. I have been studying MBTI since I was 25, though. I’m 46 now. So that’s 21 years. 

P.S. Sorry, were you asking @Dalien ?


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## 8080 (Oct 6, 2020)

Llyralen said:


> I don’t see feeler in him at all and I don’t know why people would think he has Fi.







“People have *values*, these *things, * these *amorphous things* they call *values*, that they bring to to the to the seat in the theater when they sit down …”


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

I think it’s more fair to say that Extreme Extroverts are looked down upon by society - I run a play base preschool/family child practice. My extremely extroverted students are often the one that gets picked on, by their peers and their peers parents .
Ive had parents emailing me , asking me to separate their more introverted child from this loud kid bc she/he exhausts them (what they didn't know was that it was their children would seek out this extrovert to play with and it was also their child who started teasing him hence their child got in trouble with me).
This happens every year- parents and students would gang up on the louder/impulsive child . Imagine a life where everyone you know finds you annoying, would you like that? Even on here- most extroverts gets offended the moment they hear the word “loud ,annoying and exhausting to be around. “ I’m unsure how those terms are meant to be positive.

Most of my close friends and family members are introverts - they blatantly state that loud people are embarrassing to be around .My son gets criticized for being too friendly or too excitable all the time, sometimes I even make the mistake of doing that. Our entire family are calm within temperament, so my happy and excitable son have learned how to adapt , so that people could take him more seriously.I think it’s okay to want to have your alone time , it is okay to ask a person to go away because you need time to yourself - but when you look down on another group to bring your self esteem up - it bc offensive regardless of being an introvert/extrovert etc etc
With all that said - I’m an extrovert(ambivert to be more precise ). I find that I do have it easier than most people, and can handle life situations better due to my extroverted traits.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

8080 said:


> “People have *values*, these *things, * these *amorphous things* they call *values*, that they bring to to the to the seat in the theater when they sit down …”


Hi. I’m not quite sure what points you believe/see. It could be several things. Here are some possibilities:
1. You think George Carlin is an ENFP instead of an ENTP like I postulated? And you think the quote above shows it?
2. You’re making a point about everyone having values even if they don’t have high Fi (I would agree on that.)
3. Some other point I’m not aware of and haven’t added to this possibility list.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

ai.tran.75 said:


> I think it’s okay to want to have your alone time , it is okay to ask a person to go away because you need time to yourself - but when you look down on another group to bring your self esteem up - it bc offensive regardless of being an introvert/extrovert etc etc


Exactly! I love this quote. It’s okay to want to be alone, but not to look down at someone for wanting to socialize/be closer.


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## PeachieKeene (11 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Umm...Yeah. Way to feel better about arguing with me.


I don't feel better shrug. My temperament didn't change unless if you're hoping for an apology LOL


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## PeachieKeene (11 mo ago)

Llyralen said:


> Not officially. I have been studying MBTI since I was 25, though. I’m 46 now. So that’s 21 years.
> 
> P.S. Sorry, were you asking @Dalien ?


I was asking you! And that's still a long time to study mbti!


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## iblameyou (Oct 1, 2016)

I have a large circle of friends ranging from most introvert to most extrovert, and by all means, I enjoy everyone's company when I'm with them. When I was younger and was unhealthy (emotionally immature and emotional volatile) I despise a lot of extrovert folks except for ENFPs lol. They're generally more low-key, welcoming (due to the Feeler function), and isn't obnoxious as other extroverts. I was a bit more introvert back then so I didn't like "loud" people. My perspective on all of this changed when I grew up and start working on myself.

I recently cut off a long-time ESTP friend (for personal reasons) but she was more rambunctious and sometimes obnoxious if I'm honest about her personality. I liked her and was sometimes annoyed, but never hated her by any means. I thought she was a pretty cool gal. I still don't mesh well with esfps as much, but there are a few that I am friends with and one of them being a good long-time friend of mine (10+ years).I get along with most folks.

Okay, I'll be honest...Though...there is a part of me that I still have preference with who I socialize with because some folks do have a lot of energy. If you are a very extrovert individual my first impression of you will be caution (e.g., stay away, limit contact) but I can be open-minded and get to know you overtime. I make myself stay open-minded as long as no core values clash (why I am no longer friend with the estp friend).


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Llyralen said:


> Hi Dalien.  I remember you as a poet extraordinaire.
> Do you have any questions for me about my post? Maybe others have them too.


Well hello, and thank you.
I don’t really have a question, per se. I’m just the kind of person who abhors heavy collective stereotypes of any kind, from one end to the other. In your OP it states an experience and is actually fine. Some of your list can go to the opposite side to counter it rather easily. I get why you were all inclusive on one side of the spectrum. I’ve been on PerC for a long time and have seen these introvert/extrovert threads so many times from one side to the other and somewhere in between. You’re purpose I do believe was to bring into light an imbalance that you felt was there. Some responses were in the negative, so to speak, for extroversion according to introverted peoples experience of extroverted people. And, the thing I saw was they were an experience that wasn’t actually including the heavy stereotypes. It gets rather complicated with experience, one-sided stereotypes, and battles over introversion/extroversion. I’m not saying that within the thread in its entirety that you chose a side, but I am saying the OP its self did. Before anyone jumps down me to defend you, I absolutely understand that you wanted to air the stereotyping to get an understanding (not just you, everyone) going that this way of thinking gets no one anywhere. My self personally would have gone the route of stating both sides to come to an understanding that these heavy stereotypes are just ridiculous, but then again I probably would not have gotten as many responses. I do believe people like at least a bit of controversy in order to talk—gives a bit of a spark.

And, please understand these are my thoughts and in no way do I condemn this thread. It’s been a rather interesting one and even the posts that were reactive to others were nothing like some of the ones I have seen in the past. I‘m trying to show in this post that it is a two sided affair that creates these heavy stereotypes. I’ve been calling them “heavy stereotypes “ because they create a one-sidedness, which is what I abhor. We all utilize stereotypes to try and understand what is going on, but divisiveness doesn’t get a lot of people anywhere but their own side. Divisiveness has run rampant nowadays.

I don’t have problems with introverts and extroverts. I do sometimes have moments in interaction where I just don’t feel like interacting at all. Some will try to pull me out and some will let me be, and it doesn’t matter if they are extroverts or introverts. I‘m perfectly fine watching people interact and sometimes I do join in and on occasion even take the floor. I guess one could say I’m moody. People are more than introverted and extroverted stereotypes, so much more.

People please don’t take this post as if I were beating any one up.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Dalien said:


> Well hello, and thank you.
> I don’t really have a question, per se. I’m just the kind of person who abhors heavy collective stereotypes of any kind, from one end to the other. In your OP it states an experience and is actually fine. Some of your list can go to the opposite side to counter it rather easily. I get why you were all inclusive on one side of the spectrum. I’ve been on PerC for a long time and have seen these introvert/extrovert threads so many times from one side to the other and somewhere in between. You’re purpose I do believe was to bring into light an imbalance that you felt was there. Some responses were in the negative, so to speak, for extroversion according to introverted peoples experience of extroverted people. And, the thing I saw was they were an experience that wasn’t actually including the heavy stereotypes. It gets rather complicated with experience, one-sided stereotypes, and battles over introversion/extroversion. I’m not saying that within the thread in its entirety that you chose a side, but I am saying the OP its self did. Before anyone jumps down me to defend you, I absolutely understand that you wanted to air the stereotyping to get an understanding (not just you, everyone) going that this way of thinking gets no one anywhere. My self personally would have gone the route of stating both sides to come to an understanding that these heavy stereotypes are just ridiculous, but then again I probably would not have gotten as many responses. I do believe people like at least a bit of controversy in order to talk—gives a bit of a spark.
> 
> And, please understand these are my thoughts and in no way do I condemn this thread. It’s been a rather interesting one and even the posts that were reactive to others were nothing like some of the ones I have seen in the past. I‘m trying to show in this post that it is a two sided affair that creates these heavy stereotypes. I’ve been calling them “heavy stereotypes “ because they create a one-sidedness, which is what I abhor. We all utilize stereotypes to try and understand what is going on, but divisiveness doesn’t get a lot of people anywhere but their own side. Divisiveness has run rampant nowadays.
> ...


You’re not beating anyone up. Not at all. Thank you for your balanced response.

My main concern is the “otherness” that introverts sometimes have expressed (sometimes with hostility) towards who they think are extroverts. I think it’s the “idea of extroverts” for them but at the same time it’s often not kind to individual extroverts who have to hear it. And it’s not in keeping with reality, as I said.

I’m not interested in examining the stereotypes and developing a crystal-clear “reality” of introverts and extroverts— actually that’s one of the problems in my opinion. I think people are muddy and not seeing people as muddy and as having more in common than less in common is part of the problem. The “otherness” is the problem to me. Yes, we have differences, but this one— a shift of energy— doesn’t have to be the hardest one to have compassion or understanding for. I think every person has to do both introverted activities and Extroverted activities, I think there is les difference between extroversion and introversion emotionally than — it seems like— only introverts cannot imagine.

I think we extroverts think we are largely the same as introverts emotionally and as humans we don’t feel this otherness that introverts seems to feel towards extroverts. I think extroverts (because we see our introverted moments) do not think of ourselves as very different from introverts. Now this might be just me and other ENFPs who I am close to. I think half the people in my life would probably type me an introvert and half would type me an extrovert and I am on that fence socially and I don’t think there is much difference… but HERE. I think later I will list some of the things I have heard said about extroverts here OR (just as bad) what I’ve heard said about the superiority of introversion. It is offensive and dehumanizing. And just plain not correct, too. I find that introverts do not try to put themselves into the place of extroverts and do not think that the emotions or individuality is the same— I’m sure this can only be prejudice.

So my attempt here is not to define either extroversion or introversion and make them seem more separate, but to show (as I think is real) we aren’t that different and can have compassion and understanding for each other.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

My analogy for what prejudice between extroverts and introverts feels like: 

The way I see it is maybe like two people who both like to swim but one spends more time swimming than the other and the one who doesn’t spend as much time swimming looks down on the other for swimming more than them and maybe even blames the water crisis on them. Emotionally, that is where this discussion is at for me. I don’t know why the person who swims less can’t apply what goes on with themselves to someone who swims more. Because the person who swims more does know what it is like to be on land and doesn’t see themselves emotionally as two very different kind of humans

That is where I am coming from.

To extend the analogy to myself, I maybe swam 15 more minutes than my friend, I get out of the water and they say “I don’t know how you can stand being wet like that! Wet people look like such idiots! I was dry because I have so much more inside myself without the water. I don’t need water like you do.”

At this point I might say “You’re made of water too.”

“Yeah, but I’m not IN it like you are all of the time!”

“I’m not in it all of the time.”

“I bet because of your impulsiveness that you soaked up half of the water in the ocean! And spread tons of disease to all the rest of the wet people in there! And then that affects dry people!” 

“What? You think I wouldn’t care about others because I am wet?”

“Dry people are so much more thoughtful than wet people. I really only get along with dry people. Dry people think so much deeper than wet people.”

“Okay. I will get dry in a bit and we can step away from all the wet people if you’d like and then maybe we can talk.”

15 minutes later the “dry” person says, 
“Good. You are now away from water and like your real self. Don’t you just hate wet people?”

“I am wet sometimes. A lot actually. I was just barely. All of those people you’re looking at in the pool, sometimes they are dry. Some are dryer more often than you are, even.”

“Yeah, but it’s so much better to be dry like we are, don’t you think?”

“Not really. I like being wet sometimes. You’ve seen me wet. I’m still me. I’ve seen you wet.”

“Yeah but when I get wet I don’t get SO wet that I’m sopping and dripping all over everything like wet people do.”

“Actually, I’ve seen you dripping before… it’s not such a terrible thing. It’s okay.” 

“Yeah I could drip then because no wet people were around trying to push me into the water. Aren’t you glad we can be dry here together?”

“Actually I tried to get you to jump in the water a few times because I thought you might like it. I learned. I am going to get wet again later. Don’t you have something you need to get wet for later? I don’t think wet is a bad thing. I don’t think dry is bad either. Dry or wet isn’t important to me, It’s not the reason we’re friends.”

“Yeah, but I am forced to get wet later. I will hate getting wet later with all the wet people because I only like being dry. If I didn’t know you could act like a dry person I would never hang with you.”


That is what it feels like when I hear the superiority oozing out. I feel like a lot of us extroverts just put up with this kind of talk, but I’d like to combat the effects of I can a bit. Prejudice limits my friendships. I will try to make a list later of things I’ve heard. The superiority, the distain, the “otherness” —it’s from deciding people are so different in categories… the label…and deciding you’re better than that other label…but I just don’t think E and I can’t understand each other, unless they decide they can’t. It’s probably true for all of the functions, except that everyone has an introvertion and extroversion in their first two functions… I don’t know why extroverts seem to know they are also sometimes introverts. I just don’t see it as being a big divide, but instead the smallest divide of anything Jungian.

Of course there are introverts who are not prejudiced. There are also those who know they are prejudiced who are willing to work on it. I think since we all have prejudices in some ways, the “working on it” attitude for us all is totally acceptable. It’s if we drop that and let prejudice take over that is a problem…. Can I post an experiment that happened on Oprah Winfrey’s show of all places? The thing is… we can all become prejudiced pretty quickly.


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## AnneINTJ (11 mo ago)

The MBTI may classify us as either Introvert or Extravert, but if we think of an analogy of a spectrum with red on one end and blue on the other, and keep in mind that we all are somewhere on that spectrum, not just on one end or the other....most people would be some shade of purple. I tested at 70% introverted, so that also means 30% extraverted. Same for thinking and feeling, or sensing and intuition, or perceiving and judging. Since almost no one is squarely at one end or the other, it makes no sense to think someone who tested as "opposite" is totally different. What if someone was 49% extravert and 51% introvert? Their 4-letter code would start with "I" just like mine does. I cannot see by what logic one (or many) would think any one personality type is better, or more or less shallow/bookish/shy/outgoing/whatever word is chosen as a descriptor. People sometimes perceive others as different and therefore "less than", and that is inaccurate and rude. I had hoped these tests would help educate and dispel these old-fashioned notions that some types are better than others. I've noticed the "us vs. them" mentality on youtube as well, and never did understand why. I know only one supposed extravert that really is a loudmouth jerk, and I think his problem is a lack of respect for others, not his MBTI type. I wish we could all get along better. Hope everyone has a fun holiday weekend!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

AnneINTJ said:


> The MBTI may classify us as either Introvert or Extravert, but if we think of an analogy of a spectrum with red on one end and blue on the other, and keep in mind that we all are somewhere on that spectrum, not just on one end or the other....most people would be some shade of purple. I tested at 70% introverted, so that also means 30% extraverted. Same for thinking and feeling, or sensing and intuition, or perceiving and judging. Since almost no one is squarely at one end or the other, it makes no sense to think someone who tested as "opposite" is totally different. What if someone was 49% extravert and 51% introvert? Their 4-letter code would start with "I" just like mine does. I cannot see by what logic one (or many) would think any one personality type is better, or more or less shallow/bookish/shy/outgoing/whatever word is chosen as a descriptor. People sometimes perceive others as different and therefore "less than", and that is inaccurate and rude. I had hoped these tests would help educate and dispel these old-fashioned notions that some types are better than others. I've noticed the "us vs. them" mentality on youtube as well, and never did understand why. I know only one supposed extravert that really is a loudmouth jerk, and I think his problem is a lack of respect for others, not his MBTI type. I wish we could all get along better. Hope everyone has a fun holiday weekend!


 I'm the person who tests 51% extrovert. I totally stand by what you said here. I think MBTI has tried to be so careful to say all types are equally important and all have strengths and weaknesses. Here we are hoping to keep those sentiments of equality and appreciation going! Cheers to you!


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Since the promotion of Susan Cain's - _The Power of Introversion_, it does appear that introverts have definitely been idolised to the point of expense of the extrovert. I'm not saying Cain's message directly attacked extroverts but the culture of introversion(remember the word cult exists in the word - culture) seemed to simultaeneously see the decline of popularity of extroversion or rather the downgrading of it. It's like one had to be promoted by pushing the other one down. Mind you, there is a real lack of harmonious dialectical positioning occuring in our society/s. It also seems to run in tandem with the development of internet culture over the past couple of decades where being socially insular is actively popularised as 'just being real' in some circles. Even myself who regularly needs time to battery recharge, I do see issues with this trend insofar as it is immobilising and delaying the social skills of many people. The act of sitting in social settings engaging in unsociable behavior e.g couples spending dates together glued to their smart phones and not able to see the forest from the trees(quite literally) has got to have a few things to answer for.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

mushr00m said:


> The act of sitting in social settings engaging in unsociable behavior e.g couples spending dates together glued to their smart phones and not able to see the forest from the trees(quite literally) has got to have a few things to answer for.


My social circle generally consists of people who DON'T do that. If someone does that, they never really hear from me again, gives them plenty of time to stare at their phone without being disturbed by myself and others. 

As far as potential dates go, sure there are a lot fewer women who can go a date without looking at their phone. But its about quality not quantity. 
=


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## AnneINTJ (11 mo ago)

I think an in-person phone date is a contradiction-in-terms, just like George Carlin's "jumbo shrimp" or "honest politician". Mainly because they are together, yet communicating instead with other people on their phones and not getting to know one another. Are they addicted to their phones, or are they too afraid to get to know this new person? And from a safety point of view, I see people crossing the street while staring at their phones....people honk and they don't even look. Good way to get killed. I don't turn on the data on my phone, so while it's possible to google the weather or what some new word means, I get my info and then turn the data back off. The "unused" data is always used up by the constant phone updates from Google Play!


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

I haven't read the entirety of the thread, so I apologize if I'm simply repeating an idea that's already been expressed. I think the 'prejudice' of some American introverts can be largely attributed to the strong preference of American society and culture towards extroverts. If you're not out on Saturday night hanging out at the bar watching the game or hitting on the opposite sex, there's got to be something wrong with you. And it is this presumption of 'defectiveness' in the good ol' US of A makes some introverts very defensive. Unfortunately, it sometimes results in introverts having a chip on their shoulders when dealing with extroverts, or even ambiverts.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> I haven't read the entirety of the thread, so I apologize if I'm simply repeating an idea that's already been expressed. I think the 'prejudice' of some American introverts can be largely attributed to the strong preference of American society and culture towards extroverts. If you're not out on Saturday night hanging out at the bar watching the game or hitting on the opposite sex, there's got to be something wrong with you. And it is this presumption of 'defectiveness' in the good ol' US of A makes some introverts very defensive. Unfortunately, it sometimes results in introverts having a chip on their shoulders when dealing with extroverts, or even ambiverts.


True that American culture favors extroversion…although there are some cultures that I think favor extroversion even more strongly. I’ve got to point out that what you are describing specifically here isn’t necessarily extroversion or introversion. Watching the game= not extroversion or introversion. Hitting on the opposite sex…extroverts aren’t more likely to be heterosexuals and don’t introverts also want love? In my job I meet lots of alcoholic introverts.. but there are plenty of Extroverted people who drink, so drinking isn’t Extroverted or introverted… bars or parties aren’t the only places to meet people and half the people at parties or bars are going to be introverts…so there is a slant to all this pressure to BE a certain way that does not have to do with a value for extroversion but has to do with maybe other values. I’m a girl and have never had strong pressure to go to a bar, hit on anyone or watch a game. I’ve never been in a bar. I have rarely watched games with my ISTP dad and I don’t hit on anyone. However, I will probably never be president or even move up easily in my job. My profession. because it’s largely women gets paid probably half what we are worth for our schooling. I don’t know, I’m rambling now… 

I usually think of America as valuing ESTJ preferences— I mainly think of business, looking at time management and punctuality, value for money. America’s love for punishment (we have far more people in jail than any other country) the value for traditions and religion and organizations. (People in the USA go to church more than any country but Ireland). These are things I’m not sure Americans realize are really different about us.. especially all the people in jail which is way way out of proportion compared to other countries, but…. What I’m saying is that a lot of American values are just American values and introverts and extroverts are both conditioned to not realize how insanely overgrown our prisons are. In India (which I think is maybe also ESTJ) which also prefers extroversion, then the pressures to BE what they want you to be looks different. There’s all the social classes to deal with. I dont think you can say that only extroverts would support social classes— not at all. Values that aretaught and instilled into extroverts are also taught and instilled into introverts at the same time.
I
And then there are countries that prefer introversion and I dont think they are free of pressure. At least not for most people. Sweden, for example or Japan— the pressure to conform exactly seems higher than it is in America, because America is by far the most individualist country— also an American value despite the ESTJ values, Hollywood is dominated by ENFPs supposedly, so there is that individualistic spirit from wherever it comes from. 

But anyway, this doesn’t help you deal. In the true meaning of extroverts and introverts, extroverts do want to hear what is “going on” with someone and that’s all we need, usually, although they might think being reserved or quiet means that you aren’t comfortable, because for extroverts if we get quiet, something is usually wrong— but it’s not like adult extroverts have only lived for a day— we talk to introverts every day of our lives. A few words to us individually usually makes it so we can help support you in your needs for autonomy. There are as many jerky introverts as extroverts. There are as many kind introverts as extroverts. An extroverts way of trying to loosen someone up so that an extrovert can figure out and know how to treat you might be unpleasant, but is usually well-meant. We want to make sure you get a chance to participate, but that’s all it is. With a lack of information the imagination can run wild, so that’s something to know and to strategize on for introverts.. but it’s not like extroverts don’t know how to work with all of this. I mean, my husband talks much more than I do when we are together. We know people talk more when they are comfortable. I don’t know I just have never heard extroverts talk bad about introverts. There might be a “Are you there?” “What’s going on with you?” That might be annoying as hell to you guys, but it’s usually well-meant. It’s not like I get along with either extroverts or introverts better. It depends on the person. I do need to hear from my introverts and want to know how they are… but my whole family is introverted. The idea that extroverts are on one side and introverts on the other just does not happen ever as far as I’ve ever known. There are too many of all of us. Extroverts do not hang with just extroverts— like never! My husband just said his IT group is half extroverts. There just is never a real division.

Okay let’s look at Stranger Things or something. The nerds this Season? Extroverts would be Eddy also Dustin also seems fairly Extroverted and so does Robin (and NFP-ish). Vecna is an introvert. Papa is an introvert. Billy is an extrovert (super scary, too…wow is he ever scary), that new jock guy whose girlfriend got killed, he’s an extrovert but not more of an extrovert than Eddy who is pretty extreme. The Stranger Things ratio of “good” extroverts and “good” introverts seems about normal to me. 

Karate Kid? Daniel seems ambiverted, he would have to take a test…. The blonde villain is an introvert, straight up.

Anyway, half the people down at the bars are probably introverts is what I’m saying. Since I’m ambiverted it probably looks 49-51% too ok me— which it is. I guess if I was on the extreme introverted side then maybe everyone would look Extroverted? My auto-correct keeps capitalizing introvert or extrovert randomly. Lol. Anyway… I think I might have a hard time in cultures with even more pressure to conform, personally. I think each person’s family can also really pressure because each family has certain values too. In America a strong introverted culture at this point of time in some states are cowboys. They are expected to be strong silent types, emphasis on silent. I don’t know,,, trying to help. Labels and society are tough but there are usually ways in which no one fits and there is more division and tribalism due to social media then there really needs to be, but I don’t mean to say that the pressure on you isn’t tough. It sounds like it has been? I’d be interested to hear more about it.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen The bar example was simply me regurgitating an extroverted stereotype; perhaps I should've been more careful in my selection. In the America I grew up in, there was a strong expectation of social participation. If you did not want to participate in social activities, many considered you 'anti-social' in the most pejorative sense of the word. Likewise, if you didn't particularly care for hobnobbing with your neighbors and schoolmates, this could be seen as aloof, snobbish, or even an indication of hostility. There is also the danger of being typecast as the 'lone wolf', a deranged loner one step away from violence.

This American prejudice is also apparent in the workplace, where eager participation in workplace events and activities is expected and rewarded. Non-participation can be seen as anti-social and risks the introvert not being viewed as a "team player", The result can be lost opportunities, denial of raises or, in extreme cases, even dismissal. There is a strong expectation of glad-handing and mingling, and those who do not risk being viewed as freaks, losers and outsiders.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> @Llyralen The bar example was simply me regurgitating an extroverted stereotype; perhaps I should've been more careful in my selection. In the America I grew up in, there was a strong expectation of social participation. If you did not want to participate in social activities, many considered you 'anti-social' in the most pejorative sense of the word. Likewise, if you didn't particularly care for hobnobbing with your neighbors and schoolmates, this could be seen as aloof, snobbish, or even an indication of hostility. There is also the danger of being typecast as the 'lone wolf', a deranged loner one step away from violence.
> 
> This American prejudice is also apparent in the workplace, where eager participation in workplace events and activities is expected and rewarded. Non-participation can be seen as anti-social and risks the introvert not being viewed as a "team player", The result can be lost opportunities, denial of raises or, in extreme cases, even dismissal. There is a strong expectation of glad-handing and mingling, and those who do not risk being viewed as freaks, losers and outsiders.


Well, let’s explore this.
What is healthy socialization for an introvert do you think?
And if we looked at societies that prefer introversion as a value, what level of participation do they expect?

Some of what you were saying earlier is the masculine (maybe toxic masculinity) and patriarchy in America that harms both men and (for sure) women… and does not have to do with introversion or extroversion. Societies that prefer introversion might still have toxic masculinity (look at the cowboys in the USA, actually). What you’re saying here, though, I think we should explore.

We’ve been watching “Alone” at my house and I’m not so sure that any of us thrive completely alone. Even some shared body heat would be helpful, shared work more so. And I wonder what representatives of inovwrted societies would say about certain levels of the line between healthy introversion and unhealthy and yes, what might be termed as anti-social. I’d like any introverts to weigh in on this, but I’d especially like to hear from those from introvertion-preferring societies. Don’t they have meetings at work? Aren’t school presentations a thing for every kid everywhere? 

What pressures are from just the pressures to survive together and to each contribute to society? What might be extra pressures that aren’t necessary that do have to do with extroversion and introversion? 

There is an unhealthy level of extroversion, just to put my questions in context. It’s called mania. There are mental diseases loosely associated with either extroversion or introversion, but I’m really just talking about normal pressures to regular healthy people. What does it take to be self-sufficient, what does it takes to contribute to society. Aren’t there extroverted and introverted activities that we all have to do? And I have said it before, but I don’t believe introverts contribute less. Honestly, I don’t even think introverts are less social than extroverts…just social in terms they feel comfortable in. But let’s explore these ideas.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen I'm not sure there is a gold standard for 'healthy introversion.' Tolerance for solitude among people, even introverts, can vary widely. As an extreme example, would you consider a monk or priest who has taken a vow of solitude for 5 years, and come out of the experience seemingly happy and well-adjusted, to be an unhealthy introvert? That said, it is well known that too much isolation can lead to depression and other woes. 

When you speak of mania, are you referring to manic depression, aka bipolar depression? I'm not sure this is actually an outcome of excessive extroversion, though persons in the grip of a manic episode can be very outgoing, and exhibit a profound level of charisma. And my admittedly incomplete understanding of the condition is that it is a neurological malfunction, rather than an expression of excessive extroversion.

As ironic as it may sound coming from an introvert, I do think there is an unhealthy emphasis on self-sufficiency and independence in American culture. As humans, we are a social species that cannot survive in the wild alone. We need others for support, both material and emotional. Despite that knowledge, I personally find socializing to be best avoided. For the most part, socializing for me has been an experience in mockery, an inability to conform, inauthenticity, and sensory overload.


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## Deezzee (Nov 25, 2011)

CountZero said:


> As ironic as it may sound coming from an introvert, I do think there is an unhealthy emphasis on self-sufficiency and independence in American culture. As humans, we are a social species that cannot survive in the wild alone. We need others for support, both material and emotional. Despite that knowledge, I personally find socializing to be best avoided. For the most part, socializing for me has been an experience in mockery, an inability to conform, inauthenticity, and sensory overload.


I agree. There are some parts, due to terminology/wording used, might be misleading or overlapping. The meaning of social, in terms of being talkative at gatherings, is different from pro-social/anti-social, actions that benefit or harm people.

For example, there are some introverts who might prefer a more collaborative & cooperative culture where peers work towards a shared common goal. Interactions can be more calm & low-key. This is pro-social in the sense of beneficial behaviours, but not social in the sense of talking excessively and engaging in high energy large group activities.

On the other hand, there are some extroverts who might prefer a more competitive & hyper-individualist culture where people look out for their own interests only. Thus, while such people might gather in large groups to meet people & network, they are not social in the sense of taking care of others.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Deezzee While I mostly agree, I have found that there are some (mostly extroverts in my experience) who perceive a lack of socializing as completely antisocial in the worst sense. If you're not participating, these people consider you to have nefarious intents, or unbalanced and deranged. It's a strange perspective, but some people seem to genuinely believe that simply opting out is a declaration of open hostility.


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## Deezzee (Nov 25, 2011)

CountZero said:


> @Deezzee While I mostly agree, I have found that there are some (mostly extroverts in my experience) who perceive a lack of socializing as completely antisocial in the worst sense. If you're not participating, these people consider you to have nefarious intents, or unbalanced and deranged. It's a strange perspective, but some people seem to genuinely believe that simply opting out is a declaration of open hostility.


I do find those people's perspective strange, because to me hostility usually is targeted at a person specifically, involves some premeditation & intention to cause harm. If someone's personality & conversation style is too different, it just means that I find them unrelatable, it doesn't mean ill will. 

How is not socialising hostile, if nobody is being endangered? What are the unwritten rules and rationale for having to adhere strictly to their social conventions? Why can't there be alternative "socialising arrangements" to accommodate different people?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> @Deezzee While I mostly agree, I have found that there are some (mostly extroverts in my experience) who perceive a lack of socializing as completely antisocial in the worst sense. If you're not participating, these people consider you to have nefarious intents, or unbalanced and deranged. It's a strange perspective, but some people seem to genuinely believe that simply opting out is a declaration of open hostility.



I think we’d want to really look at what level of “opting out” we are talking about with all of its complexities. We would want to describe what actually is healthy for the individual and what is healthy for the group affected by this individual, because we are affected by each other like it or not. “Opting out” might be hostile if the person is taking and not contributing and if that worries or over-burdens others. It’s like these questions go to a primitive place for me—the basics of how humans survive and adapt and thrive. My brain is framing this in a tribal or survival context. I think of lion prides and I watched the Jane Goodall documentary that showed a once peaceful group of gorillas gang-killing other gorillas when 2-3 gorillas split off from the bigger group. Kind of the understanding that if you’re not contributing with us, you’re taking resources from us, and the gorillas were bitter about it. It happened after a matriarch whose personality was holding the group together, died. I bet it was hard on her knowing she was the only link keeping this split from happening. 

I also think a lot about my nephews and nieces who have struggled with a sense of contribution. Yes, it’s pressure, but if the responsibility is shirked it causes serious damage to both the individual and the family. One wants to be diagnosed with autism to live off the state (this individual has many other things going on, but autism has never been one of them and since people with autism accomplish 30% more than other workers in some tech fields, I don’t see this as a barrier to contribute either— I have an autistic daughter whose attitude is great—but we would have to look at the individual. This individual would be having to “fight” to be “disabled.” I think this person is building a cage around themselves made of blame for others, they want their cage. They want to be brought food and shout angry things from their cage… that’s a metaphor but yeah. I can contrast this to the people with serious disabilities who I used to work with. They delighted in contributing. They wanted to be all they could possibly be. I also think of people in small northern towns in Greenland who have the highest rate of suicide in the world. Their way of life was forcibly taken and they have been “living off the state” ever since. Their source of pride and contribution and meaning was taken away. When people feel purpose then they thrive. It gives meaning to life. Introverts and extroverts and every person living need to feel purpose in order to thrive and purpose usually always comes from a sense of contribution. I do not think introversion should be a reason to “opt out” of anything, personally. I don’t see it happening either. I see that all through time introverts have given their 51% contribution as 51% of the population in every country that there is.

A further note, some of the top comedians in the USA are introverts. They chose to speak in front of masses of people every night. A lot of our presidents have been introverts. Introverts in general can adapt to do anything they want to. If not… I think the problem to contribute is probably not introversion, not introversion alone anyway.

We would have to know more, in other words, about what we are talking about with “opting out” and really analyze it. Probably for each of us.. So now I’m looking at ways or areas I might be “opting out” and who that might traumatize, because we do each affect others. We depend on each other in multiple ways and we communicate what we can give and we shouldn’t take the ones who give more and worry more about others for granted, either. We only live so long and those who care worry a lot about what will happen to those who contribute less when they aren’t there for them and even if that is the only immediate trauma going on, it’s trauma enough. Okay, end of ramble.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen You're right, "opting out" needs clarifying. Personally, I'm referring to opting out of group activities that are mostly recreational in nature, NOT endeavors necessary for group survival. In my personal instance, I have a job (despite having some mild disabilities) and contribute to society in that respect. When I "opt out" it is usually in reference to social gatherings. For example, not long ago I was invited to participate in a social activity that I find pretty boring. Despite not having anything else on my "busy" social calendar, I passed on it knowing 1) I wouldn't enjoy it, 2) I could conceivably impair the enjoyment of others and 3) I just didn't want the stress of being in a social situation that I really couldn't enjoy from any angle.

It's that sort of "opting out" I'm referring to, not being a drain on society and/or "the group" when I can contribute in some fashion. Some people consider this lack of interest in participation to be an affront, and it usually takes me off guard when I encounter it.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> @Llyralen You're right, "opting out" needs clarifying. Personally, I'm referring to opting out of group activities that are mostly recreational in nature, NOT endeavors necessary for group survival. In my personal instance, I have a job (despite having some mild disabilities) and contribute to society in that respect. When I "opt out" it is usually in reference to social gatherings. For example, not long ago I was invited to participate in a social activity that I find pretty boring. Despite not having anything else on my "busy" social calendar, I passed on it knowing 1) I wouldn't enjoy it, 2) I could conceivably impair the enjoyment of others and 3) I just didn't want the stress of being in a social situation that I really couldn't enjoy from any angle.
> 
> It's that sort of "opting out" I'm referring to, not being a drain on society and/or "the group" when I can contribute in some fashion. Some people consider this lack of interest in participation to be an affront, and it usually takes me off guard when I encounter it.


Thanks for clarifying. That’s important.

I’m probably the worst person to ask or explain on this one. I think participating was easier before I got married, but I’ve always had some degree of social anxiety. We opt out of a lot of social activities— my husband more so. . I know it has consequences. I know it’s a message but does it mean more than I realize even? I’m not sure.

I bet I don’t even understand the tip of the iceberg of what “opting out” looks like to others. I get that at least one person, likely several people, have been breaking their back to give the group a good time, so I know my husband and I send a message of “Your care doesn’t matter” or doesn’t land. “Don’t care about us.” Maybe? Do they think we are snooty? I wouldn’t think so… but? It is kk d of snooty. We don’t like you guys enough” even if they’ve made efforts? I have to think back to before I was married because my husband doesn’t like interaction to the point that pretty much every message is “don’t count on me.”

I think invitations are kind. Everyone wants the invitation, right? But with our track record, it really shows how nice people are that we still get them. He really doesn’t like feeling responsible or having ties to do anything for anyone, he likes his alone time too much, and he doesn’t want anyone dropping over. He is definitely sending a message to most people.. I don’t know how conscious that is. He would not see himself this way maybe? because I think he feels if someone he knows well has a problem, then he is there… but that’s just it—when he is getting to know most new people he does not see them as having any potential to be someone he knows well. It is so rare for him to make a new friend or be keen to meet with the husbands of mine. For a while I could only make friends with women who were single, honestly. So it’s probably a loud message of “Pretend I’m not here.”Any hopes for interactions on other’s sides are dashed. Future fun ideas are dropped. People don’t know if you’re uncomfortable with them or want to be “brought out”. The message is this tight boundary around you.. This probably affects other people more than we realize.

I don’t think this level of “stay away” is very common— but there are all sorts of reasons why someone would draw their lines tight and I guess why people outside of them would have a hard time dealing with it. I obviously want to understand all this better myself. But I don’t think it is totally“Nothing to do with them” or I think that might be untrue because that’s definitely the attitude we lead with in our family and I see where we are at with others due to it. I would love to understand “the other side” of this better. Maybe someone will share. End of ramble.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen My apologies, I didn’t realize at first how much this issue was impacting you personally. Clearly I am not the same as your husband, but I can explain why I ‘draw tight boundaries’ as you put it.

For me others have historically been a source of pain, rather than any sort of comfort or joy. And like most humans, I prefer to avoid pain. Hence, I avoid people (for the most part.) This is obviously a simplistic breakdown, but I think it stands up well. 

In my case at least, it’s not really about physical pain, but someone who’s been through violence might have a similar attitude. For myself, being around others was mostly about rejection, mockery, derision, etc. Some of this was ‘my fault’, in the sense of having a bad attitude or maladaptive behaviors, though even much of that could be pinned on a troubled home life.

Solitude on the other hand was a refuge, a time away from the constant verbal assaults and demands of others. It represented safety, and conditions under which I could actually relax instead of constantly being on my guard. So alone time was a comparative paradise, one in which I could find some measure of peace, pursue whatever interests intrigued me, and just chill out. That’s not to say that it couldn’t be lonely; it certainly could be. But in my case at least, the pain of being around others was much greater than being alone.

None of that is to say that your husband (at least I assume that is who you’re talking about) has had similar experience(s), or adapted in the same that I have. But maybe that can explain the behavior of at least some introverts.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

People are mainly slow to warm - open or difficult, these are temperament that we’re born with , society can either help enhance or diminish a person based on the negative /positive re-enforcement that they received . 

The problem with the introversion or extroversion cult is that it isolate people more so than help .

Being more open - easygoing - friendly and enjoy traveling or trying something new are positive extroverted behaviors - what’s wrong with striving towards that ?


Being independent, introspective and thinking before one talk are considered introverted traits - I believe it’s common sense that most people think of these trait as positives . 

Problem is - personality website or mbti make it seems one way more than the other . It’s only on perC where I have other people assuming that I’m loud and hyperactive ( due to my mbti type - irl I’m nowhere near loud or hyper ) or that I need to be around people at all time ( yes I enjoy people and socializing, I love it in fact - but I still gain more energy when I’m alone introspecting) . 


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Just to throw in my two cents that have been said before, I agree with you Llyralen that there is undue snobbishness among Introverts towards Extroverts. You made some good points. 

I do think a lot of that comes as a reaction against pressure to be extroverted, or criticisms and lack of understanding for their introvertedness: a defensive 'I have good points too!' or a 'oh yeah, well you've got faults too!' sort of thing. I was certainly emotionally damaged as a child by people who implied I was worthless and broken because I wasn't more outgoing, I'm sure resentment grew strong for a lot of introverts before they became aware of personality typing and finally heard validation of their slow-to-speak, hang-back-and-observe, wait-to-be-approached tendencies. I'm not saying it's right to make others feel just as bad as they made you feel, but I understand that it can feel like justice for some. 

And of course the most extreme examples on either side are going to make a big impression while the majority of inbetween people aren't as reckless or as snobby as the sort of 'banner bearers' for their type.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Aelthwyn said:


> Just to throw in my two cents that have been said before, I agree with you Llyralen that there is undue snobbishness among Introverts towards Extroverts. You made some good points.
> 
> I do think a lot of that comes as a reaction against pressure to be extroverted, or criticisms and lack of understanding for their introvertedness: a defensive 'I have good points too!' or a 'oh yeah, well you've got faults too!' sort of thing. I was certainly emotionally damaged as a child by people who implied I was worthless and broken because I wasn't more outgoing, I'm sure resentment grew strong for a lot of introverts before they became aware of personality typing and finally heard validation of their slow-to-speak, hang-back-and-observe, wait-to-be-approached tendencies. I'm not saying it's right to make others feel just as bad as they made you feel, but I understand that it can feel like justice for some.
> 
> And of course the most extreme examples on either side are going to make a big impression while the majority of inbetween people aren't as reckless or as snobby as the sort of 'banner bearers' for their type.


Your stance here is very moderate and understandable. It assumes that the attitude of introverts towards extroverts is an understandable reaction to pressuring events and is a measured response. I think you are assuming that most introverts have a measured moderate stance, but I am no longer sure that the majority of introverts have moderate or well-rounded opinion on extroverts. I think this thread was a long time in coming for me…but it has also exposed more than I thought.

This thread is pointing out that there seems to be a trend towards a belief in the superiority of introverts that seems like something I need to discuss. Could this trend get out of hand? Yeah.. beliefs in superiority after people are labeled are usually fast to spread and can get really bad. Am I seeing it get out of hand now? I don’t know. I don't like what I’m seeing anyway.

I think this morning that I’m not going to have a measured, proportionate response myself, (but please know this is for a wider point and not aimed at you specifically. Your post was great @Aelthwyn .)

I mentioned to a guy on another forum that I had written this thread. He was blaming extroverts for most of the world’s problems, and was saying that extroverts are basically vampires wearing out all of the introverts for nothing. I said “I just wrote a thread on a trend I’m seeing about elitism.” He started spitting statistics to me on how much more intelligent introverts are. I said his statistics weren’t really disproving my point about the trend I’d written about where introverts decide they are superior to extroverts. He spouted more statistics back to justify the superiority. He loved the word elitism that I used. He then kept saying all introverts were elitist naturally because…(add statistic about IQ test here). I kept saying back “I didn’t say all introverts were elitists naturally, I think superiority has to be taught…here is the pattern of how it is taught…here is what it can lead to…” But I think he wanted “Elitist Introverts” to be justified in their elitism. He really hates extroverts though, blames us for every problem he’s ever had and that the world has. 

My point? I would have never written this thread if I wasn’t experiencing a disproportionate amount of prejudice towards those labeled extroverts from those labeled introverts. I would not have written it if I felt there was fairness in response — honestly I keep evaluating the fairness part of this thread almost daily with my husband. Is it fair for Introverts to blame Extroverts for…xxx? Is a “chip on the shoulder” for life a fair response to a random someone asking you to play soccer when you don’t want to? Is there fairness in feeling damaged from needing to present in front of a class? And do we have to present only in countries where extroversion is preferred? Are these pressures really from extroverts? Or is pressure from the demands of life itself? I am still exploring this.

The thing is, I don’t know any Extroverts who would say that they dislike introverts. None. “Are you there?” Is the first reaction from extroverts to introverts. “Can you be more ‘there’”? The second reaction. “If I loosen you up and you trust me will you be more there?” Is a third reaction. Lol. I know that’s annoying, but it’s not hate and I don’t think it’s superiority…I don’t think? I remember the MBTI practitioner who came and spoke to my managerial class when I first learned about MBTI. She said that Introverts disliked Extroverts a lot more than the reverse, that the Extroverts just wondered “Are you there?” She was an introvert and explained her own feelings about how invasive extroverts come across to her. It seemed funny to me at the time—hardly something that would affect me, I thought, since most of my friends were Introverts. I can’t speak for all extroverts on this earth, but I can speak for every extrovert I have met. We like introverts.

The real difference seems to be about dopamine. We extroverts don’t get enough dopamine easily. We want more for our enthusiasm levels. We need to do more to get “the fix”. And introverts are sensitive to dopamine so a little goes a long way. That’s it. That’s all this difference is. I can also get dopamine from discovering new concepts— but honestly not as much—it’s even better if I observe my patterns and make them myself and explore them. It’s even better if it’s with a friend who I love with me to discuss and explore too.

I guess extroverts do want more from introverts that you guys don’t want to give or can’t give, or don’t know to give, maybe? Or think is unnecessary to give. But we do get it from you too…how can it be denied that my introverts usually end up talking more than I do…? How can it be denied that we are usually friends with each other? That we work with each other every day? That the quality of the interactions does not run along lines of E and I? 

My main point is, it’s not like the extroverts don’t like what introverts have got…just want more (and I can’t deny this either… I do want more interaction than my husband and I want more intensity and more new) and so I guess that can make introverts feel inadequate? And extroverts demanding? But is it fair to then have prejudice to the point of thinking you’re superior? All of these are things we all have to figure out in our relationships because it’s not like extroverts always bond easily and get what we need from other extroverts. That’s not how it works. It’s just not! We bond with people from all sorts of things, our differences and similarities. It is not like all the extroverts are out at a party and all the introverts are home… it’s just not. In my immediate family I am maybe the only extrovert. There is a lot for me to do because I have the energy… but there’s a lot more I want from everything and from from my introverts because I want the energy… so this is not going away. There is no extrovert in this world who isn’t working on relationships with introverts. None. Introverts are 51% of the population.

I want to explore more what introverts experience in thinking extroverts think they are broken…and I am exploring this. But of course extroverts experience pressure to shut the F up and of course we experience lots of pressure to be and not be how we are and turn the tap on or off and yes… we are all told by our parents to be different. If you put scape-goat children on one side of the room and golden children on the other, I’m pretty sure that golden children will be introverts as often as extroverts. The golden child in my parent’s family (for sure and by far) is the INFP. She knows this. She would probably say she had pressure to be different. I had plenty of pressure to be different. Was it about being extroverted? Sometimes…maybe always? I mean I could see it that way if I decided to. It’s not like people aren’t trying to curb you growing up. I keep seeing online people saying “Why don’t extroverts get told to be quiet? And calm down!” We do! We do! Especially in childhood. Introverts learn to talk more, extroverts learn to talk less. Is it disproportionate? Do introverts still talk less? Do extroverts still talk more? Not all of them, no… I’m not going to go into the stereotypes at this point. We’ve covered it. Do we all get messages to be different growing up? Yes! 

I haven’t shown some of the really dreadful hateful statements I’ve seen online from introverts towards extroverts. I’m likely not going to post these, because it would just hurt everyone, in my opinion. But all anyone needs to do is search Google for how Introverts feel about Extroverts and read what comes up on quora (yuk!) or other social media sites. I don’t think most introverted people feel as much hate or as much blame as some of the people who made those statements (although I’ve heard some crazy statements on PerC for sure too) but what I do experience (and yes, this is subjective— it is me) is a regular amount of “you don’t really feel— deeply, you don’t really think—deeply, you can’t be intelligent—really. I hate extroverts. I only barely tolerate extroverts, so I am not interested in you as a person.” There is also the “I am so much more intelligent…I have it all in my own mind and need nothing…I have so much imagination because I am an introvert….” ”There’s the “Extroverts are a drain on humanity and vampires and basically all problems were created by extroverts, (especially Covid) and extrovert energy needs are a drain on ‘smart’ society.” And yes, this is in response to the label of E on here and in my life, because as I’ve said, my friends who identify as introverts and even sometimes my INFP husband talk poorly about extroverts TO ME.

There is enough of a trend online that many people who know that they are extroverts and are online have told me “I would be an extrovert according to Jung, getting energy from outside of myself. Mostly I get my extroversion fix from reading information and not from other people, so I call myself an introvert.” Here is another “People won’t really discuss things with you if you’re online and an extrovert, so I just say I don’t have a type and it’s much easier. It’s a hall pass.” “I just say I’m an introvert and then I can socialize.” I also have pointed out to certain people that they are obvious Ne doms (occasionally Se dom, I’m not as good at pointing it out so I volunteer to do it less) but the person will not explore it, and it becomes obvious as I discuss with them that it is because they believe extroverts cannot be intelligent measured kind people. This must be taught! They are an extrovert and believe this, but see themselves as intelligent, therefore they can’t be an extrovert.

If many introverts listening to this are mostly like my husband they would say “I don’t need anymore friends anyway. I don’t need those two cents anyway. I didn’t need that outside information anyway.” So? Am I worthless? Am I not doing enough for humanity? I think I do.. I am…and my observations are valuable. I am going to speak up about being made to feel less human and less valuable. I am.

Ah man…I need a dopamine fix somewhere this morning…someone interact with me quick! Dopamine crack whores are what extroverts are…no way to function for them without it…(I’m kidding…) and I’m sure extroverts don’t use energy to help anyone?

And what the hell is this with introverts assuming extroverts don’t read books? I just saw about 5 assumptions online from different psychologists who like to write about introversion when I did my “What introverts feel about extroverts” search. One said that an extrovert might think an afternoon of reading a book was crushing! What an assumption! Reading is life! In my opinion reading is an extroverted (new information) and introverted (Ti and Fi) task.

Anyway, the de-humanization is the worst part. People assuming extroverts don’t feel deeply— for me that’s such a deep slap…that I’m not supposed to feel—deeply.

Note: This is going to be an un-even read, I went back and added lots of my own experiences as I re-read what I first wrote. At first it was more textbook— anyone could read it and respond and now it’s a bit of a mess, but I don’t feel like changing it—vulnerability is more beautiful to me any day, personally. So maybe it will work for someone.)


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Llyralen said:


> And what the hell is this with introverts assuming extroverts don’t read books? I just saw a lot of assumptions there this morning…












Well you know all of us extrovert have no brains and don’t like books  ( my room ) 


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## odinthor (Mar 22, 2017)

Llyralen said:


> [...]
> “Are you there? Can you be more ‘there’”? If I loosen you up and you trust me will you be more there?” Is the main extroverted reaction towards introverts… not that I can speak for all of us.
> [...]


I haven't read the postings and so on that you're referring to; but they appear to be extreme and not at all what I would agree with, so I understand your upset and lament what occasioned it. But I do take exception to what I've quoted from your message. "Are you there? Can you be more 'there'?" To an introvert, this is very overbearing and disrespectful. Surely you can see how much of a put-down it is to the introvert. Of _course _the introvert is "there," and has no obligation to "be more 'there'" simply to please the extrovert. If we mirror-imaged that statement to produce its equivalent as coming from an introvert to an extrovert, just how much would you like, "Aren't you too 'here'? Could you be less 'here'?" You take us as you find us; you don't get to send us back to the kitchen saying, "More mustard please."


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

odinthor said:


> I haven't read the postings and so on that you're referring to; but they appear to be extreme and not at all what I would agree with, so I understand your upset and lament what occasioned it. But I do take exception to what I've quoted from your message. "Are you there? Can you be more 'there'?" To an introvert, this is very overbearing and disrespectful. Surely you can see how much of a put-down it is to the introvert. Of _course _the introvert is "there," and has no obligation to "be more 'there'" simply to please the extrovert. If we mirror-imaged that statement to produce its equivalent as coming from an introvert to an extrovert, just how much would you like, "Aren't you too 'here'? Could you be less 'here'?" You take us as you find us; you don't get to send us back to the kitchen saying, "More mustard please."


i think “Could you be less here.” Is actually exactly the message that extroverts get. That’s brilliant, actually. Thank you for that. Fortunately or unfortunately the chemicals in an extrovert’s frontal cortex makes us push through anyway, usually. However, I’m hearing this message and have heard this message always. Thank you! 

I get it. “Are you there?” It is invasive. It is demanding. It is also understandable, given dopamine needs and a lack of information, each person is understandable. Each reaction is understandable in what you wrote. Usually over time people grow, learn from experience, and know when to give space if you have self-awareness. Over time many introverts know when they need to communicate more. We learn to be more rounded out. This would be when things are at their best and healthiest. But “Are you there?” isn’t abusive, I don’t think. It’s not hateful, I don’t think. Could it turn that direction? Anything could and has to be watched.

When someone isn’t talking to you and you need or want to interact with them, what is your reaction?


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## odinthor (Mar 22, 2017)

Llyralen said:


> i think “Could you be less here.” Is actually exactly the message that extroverts are currently getting. That’s kind of brilliant, actually.
> 
> I get it. It is invasive. It is demanding. It is also understandable when you think about it. Given dopamine needs and a lack of information, each person is understandable. Usually over time people know when to give space if you have self-awareness. Over time many introverts know when they need to communicate. We learn to be more rounded out. This would be when things are at their best and healthiest. But “Are you there?” isn’t abusive, I don’t think. It’s not hateful, I don’t think. Could it turn that direction? Anything could and has to be watched.


It is saying, "You as you are don't really seem to be there, in my estimation." What could be more degrading? It also implies that the person not only isn't living up to your standards, but _should _live up to your standards. To my way of thinking, that's abusive through being overbearing.



Llyralen said:


> When someone isn’t talking to you and you need or want to interact with them, what is your reaction?


"Good riddance."

Then I review the situation and if necessary find someone else who _naturally _fits better into the scenario. It's not for me to _mandate_ that someone else change, most particularly not simply for my personal benefit.

If the truth be known, "need or want to interact with them" is usually a mirage, just a crutch to lean on when one could have accomplished whatever it is through one's own efforts.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Well you know all of us extrovert have no brains and don’t like books  ( my room )
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m saving this spot to add mine later. So beautiful!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

odinthor said:


> It is saying, "You as you are don't really seem to be there, in my estimation." What could be more degrading? It also implies that the person not only isn't living up to your standards, but _should _live up to your standards. To my way of thinking, that's abusive through being overbearing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understood you. I understand and feel your points.
I’ve experienced the “Could you be less here?” And I think that crystallizes what I have experienced my whole life— well done. I also understand that that point is meant as an equivalent. I’m not sure that this whole thread shows that there is always an equivalent in society going on, as the world turns.
Also, I heard what you want.
And I understand that if I want to interact with someone it is a mirage and a crutch, got it.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

”Hello, is there anybody in there?”
When someone has said that to me—it has happened.
I just give a blank look, wait a few beats and…
Say, “Nope.”
Wait for their reaction.
Smile slightly—more my eyes than mouth.
Sorry but I find it very amusing.

Now to catch up on the posts that I’ve not read yet.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> i think “Could you be less here.” Is actually exactly the message that extroverts get. That’s brilliant, actually. Thank you for that. Fortunately or unfortunately the chemicals in an extrovert’s frontal cortex makes us push through anyway, usually. However, I’m hearing this message and have heard this message always. Thank you!
> 
> I get it. “Are you there?” It is invasive. It is demanding. It is also understandable, given dopamine needs and a lack of information, each person is understandable. Each reaction is understandable in what you wrote. Usually over time people grow, learn from experience, and know when to give space if you have self-awareness. Over time many introverts know when they need to communicate more. We learn to be more rounded out. This would be when things are at their best and healthiest. But “Are you there?” isn’t abusive, I don’t think. It’s not hateful, I don’t think. Could it turn that direction? Anything could and has to be watched.
> 
> When someone isn’t talking to you and you need or want to interact with them, what is your reaction?


I agree. I don't think it's abusive or degrading. It's just a query, and introverts can choose to accept their call. 

Think of all the times the extrovert gets denied. I'm sure they get really disappointed. I can hear it in their voice. I'm disappointed. I wish I had more to give, I probably do, honestly, I just don't believe it. I wish I could rise up and say, "Here I am! I'm right here!"

It's hard balancing what I want to do and what they want me to do, because if I could they would be so much happier.

I know I'm hard to get time with to interact with, but I know of people even harder to get to. I'm sure these friends of mine have to deal with, well... whatever they're dealing with, but I wish we could talk more.


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## Tripwire_Desire (Jul 8, 2017)

The first thing that popped into my head when I saw this thread.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

secondpassing said:


> I agree. I don't think it's abusive or degrading. It's just a query, and introverts can choose to accept their call.
> 
> Think of all the times the extrovert gets denied. I'm sure they get really disappointed. I can hear it in their voice. I'm disappointed. I wish I had more to give, I probably do, honestly, I just don't believe it. I wish I could rise up and say, "Here I am! I'm right here!"
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. @secondpassing I’m actually crying now so… thank you. I know I’m not supposed to ask for more, but I can’t help it. Anyway, thank you. Dang it I want to shut up but I want to talk too… it means a lot to have someone try to understand (and succeed, btw, thank you). I try hard to understood too and hopefully we make the world a better place that way.


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Llyralen said:


> I understood you. I understand and feel your points.
> I’ve experienced the “Could you be less here?” And I think that crystallizes what I have experienced my whole life— well done. I also understand that that point is meant as an equivalent. I’m not sure that this whole thread shows that there is always an equivalent in society going on, as the world turns.
> Also, I heard what you want.
> And I understand that if I want to interact with someone it is a mirage and a crutch, got it.


I think that all these people without identity, who need a certain tribal mentality, all those who say negative things about extroverts, are fools... if they are young they can be easily forgiven, but if they are adults, how much they are lacking?

You might think that technology produces this, introverts can spend long hours out of touch with reality, but I still remember when the internet didn't exist, I was forced to do that.

Enfp is my favorite type lol.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

The kindness and understanding and strength showing up from you guys in this thread has definitely warmed my heart. I didn’t know how bad researching all of this had affected me until I started crying. I really want to understand and validate people— not that I succeed 100% but I feel like I try 110% and want to go out of my way because understanding helps! and not getting that back anywhere.. we’ll it was hurting me even more than I nnew. This thread is not meant to be about me though… but THANK YOU!

Next I think I will add some of the things I’ve learned on neuroscience for the two types. Hopefully for even more understanding and healthy validation. Really… thanks. I hope all this has a purpose and will be at sometime helpful for everyone who has participated with good will here. (Good will= a much underestimated ingredient in people, I think)


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## Deezzee (Nov 25, 2011)

While there are snobbish comments about superiority complexes between introversion & extroversion made by certain people online as mentioned earlier, there are IRL situations where people who are more introverted who act in good faith by trying to approach people, yet don't get accepted by other people who happen to be extroverts.

A friend shared with me that they have been called weird and felt excluded during workplace interactions by people who are loud & outgoing. Those people engage in gossiping & insider jokes, and are unwilling to accommodate people who are outside of their clique. The socialising aspect in the workplace has been very stressful, with the ostracising & mean treatment towards an introvert.

How would you deal with such a situation?


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

I want to mention another possible factor here, the old green-eyed monster, jealousy. And I mean that in regards to the elitist introvert I hear @Llyralen talking about. From the point of view of the (American) introvert, extroverts have at all. A huge circle of friends, parties, easy integration at work and school, popularity, etc. I know in large part this is a stereotype, but from the point of view of a lonely, marginalized introvert it may well seem true. And that can breed jealousy, and elitism as a kind of backlash against the extrovert's apparently easy time navigating life and it's social demands.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Deezzee said:


> While there are snobbish comments about superiority complexes between introversion & extroversion made by certain people online as mentioned earlier, there are IRL situations where people who are more introverted who act in good faith by trying to approach people, yet don't get accepted by other people who happen to be extroverts.
> 
> A friend shared with me that they have been called weird and felt excluded during workplace interactions by people who are loud & outgoing. Those people engage in gossiping & insider jokes, and are unwilling to accommodate people who are outside of their clique. The socialising aspect in the workplace has been very stressful, with the ostracising & mean treatment towards an introvert.
> 
> How would you deal with such a situation?


I think your friend should go to HR. The environment sounds toxic. And I feel for them as I have been been ostracized and called weird (many times) before. It’s horrible. Really horrible.

I strongly dislike gossiping, personally— that’s not an extroverted trait. Introverts also gossip. People who are very kind go out of their way to let a newcomer into inside jokes and I always notice if someone doesn’t do that or does do that— it shows a lot about them. The last few people I noticed doing that— one is an extrovert, one is an introvert (as casually typed by me). Letting people into “the know” is an extra level of effort in kindness and inclusion— a big thing to notice and give points for. 

I would think other new people would be getting ostracized as well, probably both introverts and extroverts. This group likes how they are and are oblivious. But are they all extroverts or introverts is a “We don’t know”. Most people are kind of ambiverted and can seem extroverted or introverted depending on what task they are doing. I don’t know— because I’m not there—introverts are usually a part of cliques at work. If you look around and think, 51% of these people around me are introverts, then you know kindness and understanding is not about introversion. It takes a lot to go against a group as insecure and toxic as this. 

Your friend could really use someone good at putting themselves into their shoes, right now, but I think they should go to HR. That’s what HR are for and if HR don’t help then it’s going to come down to finding a new job. These aren’t good working conditions. I very much feel the pain of this.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> I want to mention another possible factor here, the old green-eyed monster, jealousy. And I mean that in regards to the elitist introvert I hear @Llyralen talking about. From the point of view of the (American) introvert, extroverts have at all. A huge circle of friends, parties, easy integration at work and school, popularity, etc. I know in large part this is a stereotype, but from the point of view of a lonely, marginalized introvert it may well seem true. And that can breed jealousy, and elitism as a kind of backlash against the extrovert's apparently easy time navigating life and it's social demands.


My husband brought this point up too. (Sorry I keep mentioning him). I really appreciate the thinking about it. I really appreciate this thought. Feeling superior might feel better than feeling inferior. Lol. On the other hand, I really don’t know how to take it. I don’t think being extroverted protects me from problems or makes them easier. I think it just makes me able to ram my head against the walls of life harder and more repeatedly is kind of what I think…the prize seems more worth it and imperative to extroverts…but less bruises? No! 

We could say, for instance, trying to find a friend and being okay with being rejected 20 times after hard effort with people who I found and admire, I won’t stop looking! Never! How could I stop? Maybe an introvert might stop trying after a few. Just the prize is too important and I won’t be happy without or really able to do what I need to do (duties) well without. Do I want to say function? If I’m not getting enough happiness from my interactions then I don’t function…? Not at the level I’m supposed to… kind of…just being honest with myself on that. 

I feel like I have a fairly good handle on what extroversion makes easier but also what it makes harder—but I think the things it makes harder might be hard for introverts either to see as bad or to conceive maybe? I think when I talk about it, it tends to go past my husband’s ears. I think it has to do with the dopamine stuff. Underline the dopamine stuff! I did a lot of reading and talking and reflecting on all of this this last week and the dopamine is a huge part of all of this. I realized it was a bigger part of my marriage and how I work versus how my husband works and can imagine me working than I ever gave it credit for. I tend to think of myself as 1% extrovert like my test said— but 1% makes a big difference in energy. (Interestingly, I read something that said ambiverts, because we adapt to every situation never really quit and can burn out the most.)

Basically extroverts are on a high of dopamine compared to introverts and we need that high and would deflate without, and the high seems worth the pain, energy and effort. But we also have the energy to get that, so it works. New tasks. Supposedly the dopamine comes from “new tasks” or interaction with people. Or for Ne, I have to add, seeing new concepts. 

I think I will get to a spot where I can find the right way to present what’s hard only for extroverts. Hmm… but I wonder if there is also a problem with a generational gap when I talk about difficulties and what should be tolerated in general by society. My age group— and this was much more true in the older groups—usually think of the hammer of life being inevitable and normal, something to push back against if you want to survive. My parents got married late so my grandparents were raising kids during the Great Depression. Hardiness and resilience and frugality were values and life being hard was expected. “At least we weren’t starving—yet” was the idea. This was reality. Starvation was a real threat and only hard work could push back against it, so I think sometimes difficult has a lot to do with perspective. Getting thrashed by your dad until you had welts was the norm— luckily that has changed! But challenging yourself to do hard things and hard work because you have to or else we won’t get through the winter…has also changed. Even in my 80’s childhood this outlook has changed a lot. So I wonder at my ability to talk about “difficulties” from several perspectives and I will see. If I can get my husband to understand how it works for me (and he is a very insightful, sympathetic person in general) then I will see if I can post it here. 

In the mean time, I will post on some other things I’ve read that helped me understand more.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I feel like I have a fairly good handle on what extroversion makes easier but also what it makes harder—but I think the things it makes harder might be hard for introverts either to see as bad or to conceive maybe?


Feel free to share your insights. Despite being rather introverted, I'm usually pretty good at putting myself in other people's shoes. Good ol' Fi I suppose...


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## dirt. (4 mo ago)

CountZero said:


> If I have a resentment towards extraverts, it is most likely rooted in my memories of grade school. Extraverts were the "cool" ones, the jocks and the preppies, who went to all the parties and got all the dates. And in turn, the introverted geeks got ridiculed and bullied by the same cool classmates. As an adult though, life has changed, and it's rather foolish to hang to those old grudges.


Sorry if this was already addressed, I did not read the entire thread. That said...
While you may be trying to put the feelings about it behind you, which is great, I think the outlook itself is fallacious. There's a tendency to automatically associate extroversion with social success, but the two are not one in the same. The popular people may be mostly or entirely extroverts, but that certainly doesn't mean in reverse that most or all extroverts are popular.
I grew up always around nerdy people, awkward, quiet, unsociable, not well liked, didn't get out much. I was one of them, to be sure. But if you get a whole group of those people in one place, a group that feels secure in eachother away from social ridicule, there were always the ones who would suddenly become the life of the anime convention, the class clowns of the D&D campaign, the community organizers of Star Trek binge watching nights. Those people were not introverts. They were failed extroverts.
(Somewhat unrelated, but likewise there are socially successful introverts who can easily be charismatic but prefer a lot of alone time.) And there were many more in between as well, people who didn't fail socially but weren't the biggest attention-grabbers, the sociable people who had their little group of friends and were content with that.
I think when socially unsuccessful people get bullied by a small handful of socially successful people, there's a temptation to blame those people's cruelty on their social nature itself, because it's the weapon by which they can harm the socially unsuccessful. But not only to conflate social success with extroversion, but to then make those few people's transgressions the responsibility of all socially inclined people, is a very broad prejudice that disregards the countless extroverts that never did anything to you. Maybe even the low-key extroverts who were your friends.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

dirt. said:


> Sorry if this was already addressed, I did not read the entire thread. That said...
> While you may be trying to put the feelings about it behind you, which is great, I think the outlook itself is fallacious. There's a tendency to automatically associate extroversion with social success, but the two are not one in the same. The popular people may be mostly or entirely extroverts, but that certainly doesn't mean in reverse that most or all extroverts are popular.
> I grew up always around nerdy people, awkward, quiet, unsociable, not well liked, didn't get out much. I was one of them, to be sure. But if you get a whole group of those people in one place, a group that feels secure in eachother away from social ridicule, there were always the ones who would suddenly become the life of the anime convention, the class clowns of the D&D campaign, the community organizers of Star Trek binge watching nights. Those people were not introverts. They were failed extroverts.
> (Somewhat unrelated, but likewise there are socially successful introverts who can easily be charismatic but prefer a lot of alone time.) And there were many more in between as well, people who didn't fail socially but weren't the biggest attention-grabbers, the sociable people who had their little group of friends and were content with that.
> I think when socially unsuccessful people get bullied by a small handful of socially successful people, there's a temptation to blame those people's cruelty on their social nature itself, because it's the weapon by which they can harm the socially unsuccessful. But not only to conflate social success with extroversion, but to then make those few people's transgressions the responsibility of all socially inclined people, is a very broad prejudice that disregards the countless extroverts that never did anything to you. Maybe even the low-key extroverts who were your friends.


I think an adult way of being well-liked or getting along in general is probably more of a bell-curve of extroverted and introverted that centers on ambiversion— where people have adapted. Adults and “well-liked” seems very different than middle-school “popularity” which to me seemed to have more to do with fame, a kid’s-type hierarchy and power-dynamics. Nobody really liked the snooty mean popular kids… or so it seemed to me. 

I really want this second half of your post quotes on a wall somewhere— it’s fantastic and I appreciate the heck out of it! 

I think many people have glued the idea of “sociable” with things that are completely separate traits like gossip and ill-will or carelessness and cruelty that don’t go together. But I’m not even sure how much “sociable” and extroversion can be glued together, really. For instance, I have a question today about lonliness being experienced much more by extroverts than introverts.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> Feel free to share your insights. Despite being rather introverted, I'm usually pretty good at putting myself in other people's shoes. Good ol' Fi I suppose...


Yeah, I will try.
This might sound really bad, and ironic given this thread…but I’m skeptical about introverts being able to put themselves into my extroverted shoes in a few areas. My INFP husband can’t, actually— of course that’s just him, but after many years on here asking questions and me working hard to understand why he can’t understand these things about me, I will now lay out the things that are foreign about me to my introverts and I am almost bracing for a gut-punch afterwards from you all: 

1. The level of excitement and meaning and joy that I want to feel in life on a daily basis and that is normal for me. Sustained joy, passion, ecstasy, energy, vitality. When I have looked into this over the years because of how much I have tried to live in his shoes, I find that there is no compassion or understanding of what it feels like to me when my usual levels of passion, excitement, enthusiasm and happiness fall. I want it back if it has fallen. I will try to do whatever I personally can to get it back— I have to. It’s not usual for me to not feel a higher more ecstatic jubilance for a sustained and dependable majority of my day. Without it, I can’t be me. Without it, I can’t do all of the things I have committed to do. If I say I’m not getting my level of energy, passion, joy from life— at the sustained level I’m used to feeling it— then this is a crisis indeed. It should be a crisis to everyone close to me in my opinion, as I cannot function in my committed roles without this dependable level of energy. However, since how this vitality created is largely a mystery to the introverts I am with, they are likely to just say “Oh. Oh. Well maybe you need to talk to a therapist or something.” And it isn’t seen as the immediate threat that it actually is for me. Nor do they see a role for them that might help me. Not just help me, but help me help them too, so that I’ve got more to give. There are a lot of systems that ride on my energy and are at threat. So for me, I know that it’s my relationships and doing new things that are the generator of my energy. I need excitement, I need to interact and explore everything emotionally going on inside me with my partner and closest friends. I need meaning to create meaning. I need new things that I’m excited about to look foreword to and to happen and to be surprised. I’m very much a sx sub-type and I need those interactions. More than I admit to. More than I realized when I started this thread. I mean… I give back. No way am I asking even for more than a crust of what I haven’t created myself to give to others. But that higher sustained level of energy passion involvement and joy isn’t well understood by my beloved introverts. I think joy and delight are disrupters of the usual introvert’s homeostasis and they are my norm and it’s not a little deal… it’s a big deal. If lower levels are going to be the norm, just cutting back on commitments helps, but make hay I really want back is the level of joy and meaning and passion I’m used to. I hope that makes some sense. It’s been interesting for me to watch some extroverts lately married to introverts like me and see what they do to pull in excitement and life in many ways— like bringing in foster kids, starting a band. There are things to do, but where I am sx subtype, I really need my husband’s involvement in my happiness. I realize this might be a lot to ask. My therapist says I’m asking for little. I don’t know. I know they say about 7s that when we need more we act like spoiled brats. I don’t know. Now I’m too exhausted to edit this out. Lol. 

2. Loneliness on a deeper level— at least in me, this ENFP. I don’t know if it can be comprehended from the introvert’s viewpoint. 

I’m being honest about what I see are my raw honest needs that are not comprehensible (maybe not even seen as “real” at the present time) for my introverts.

But I do know I’m very needed, though, and that helps.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

@Llyralen In a way, I can relate to issue 1. I mostly hated school, but one part I did enjoy was discussing, or more accurately, playing with new ideas in class discussion. This could get me very excited (in contrast with the typical dullness of rote memorization), especially when there were other individuals also interested in exploring these ideas. Such an experience could give me a buzz and stream of ideas for several hours after the discussion was closed, though I'd usually need a breather after my brain finally cooled down. This isn't exactly what you're talking about (exploring emotions and relationships) but it is one of the few ways that I can actually _gain_ energy from being around others.

I'm doing a bit of reading between the lines here, but it seems like you feel your husband is holding you back in this regard. My first instinct would be to say you do you, and let hubby stay at home. But then you say...


Llyralen said:


> There are things to do, but where I am sx subtype, I really need my husband’s involvement in my happiness.


Subtypes are one area of the Enneagram theory that I have not explored, but that doesn't mean I can't grasp that you want your husband involved in these, hmm, passion projects? Or is it more ongoing activities than finitely bounded projects?

In any event, is it possible to involve your husband in a limited way that he can actually enjoy? Not so much that he feels sucked dry, but actively and willingly contributing in a way that makes you both happy? I'm not totally sure what the nature of your projects or activities are, but some adjustments might need to made on your side. Are there shared areas of interest or passion? Likewise, he needs to be willing to make some compromises to ensure your continued happiness and the well-being of the relationship. At the same time, resentment can be a real bear and it's important that it not rear it's ugly head. That's why a common interest or passion might be the best bet. 

You might want to explore with him other things he might be interested in, that also interest you - or stir your considerable passion. Has he ever wanted to try painting or playing an instrument? Wanted to start a business? Join Habitat for Humanity? Etc.

And one final question to ponder...how aware is your husband that his involvement is crucial to your own happiness? If you haven't communicated this to him, it's best done ASAP so he knows just how much his absence pains you.

I'm mostly free associating here, but hopefully something useful can be taken from my ramblings. And I'm sorry if I've misunderstood any aspects of the situation...


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## Crowbo (Jul 9, 2017)

Agreed. And I think the vitriol against sensors in the MBTI community in general and the N/S divide is even worse. It's arguably the worst thing about the typology community and has been for years.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

CountZero said:


> @Llyralen In a way, I can relate to issue 1. I mostly hated school, but one part I did enjoy was discussing, or more accurately, playing with new ideas in class discussion. This could get me very excited (in contrast with the typical dullness of rote memorization), especially when there were other individuals also interested in exploring these ideas. Such an experience could give me a buzz and stream of ideas for several hours after the discussion was closed, though I'd usually need a breather after my brain finally cooled down. This isn't exactly what you're talking about (exploring emotions and relationships) but it is one of the few ways that I can actually _gain_ energy from being around others.
> 
> I'm doing a bit of reading between the lines here, but it seems like you feel your husband is holding you back in this regard. My first instinct would be to say you do you, and let hubby stay at home. But then you say...
> 
> ...


I’m very communicative and resourceful. When an ENFP says they have tried everything for 19 years… it should be a bit humbling. I have no way to communicate to other types how many things ENFPs try before saying “I’ve tried everything.” But my last talk with him about this he acknowledged that he hasn’t been very “present”— the acknowledgement is worth quite a bit, He said he’s not feeling very interested in anything since March when his semi-estranged mom died and since getting turned down for a job opportunity. Yeah, it’s not been fun for him but oh my gosh… he is playing his video games non-stop. So even though I am saying what I need and gave him ideas of things we could do that would help me… it’s not happening. He really is letting himself get absorbed in the game. It’s not the first time I’ve talked about it. I think I have talked to him each weekend about it. He has a hard time believing that I really actually need anything, I think. He’s the “self-preservation” subtype. I think it’s hard for him to understand.

You bring up the right thing to understand #1. This is what it is like. He does also get energy boosts from our talks, but then he needs to go back to his “norm”. I have lots of things I’m involved in with others and hobbies I work on (I’m in an 8 person musical group) and I work at least 55-65 hours a week with my 2 jobs…and I have 1 close and amazing friend and a few others here. I try to be very close with my kids who are 17 year old twins. I want to be with my family most evenings. I want them to be close and have good memories of their family forever. With my husband it is really important to me to generate the kinds of love feelings that I want and need to be able to want to do anything. I want to spend time with my husband so that I can get that fix. It’s so important to me to feel all those amazing feelings of feeling in love— sustained over time. As SX subtype feeling in love, feeling intimacy (it can be with friendships, platonic, too — just intimacy) is the meaning of life. But if I don’t feel that special intimacy that our conversations make with my husband it’s like I don’t feel enough positivity about the meaning of my life and nothing else seems important. I just want to spend all of my time on us until I feel what I need to feel to make everything I put my energy into make sense, but he really isn’t present enough for me right now to get that. I have made so many decisions that put him first— and without those feelings it feels like what the heck am I working so hard for?

It is actually a lot like the energy that you got from discussion in class— it’s exactly that, except for imagine greater highs from it and the breather comes a lot later and you want a lot more of it. When he is present then all this makes sense… but he is operating underneath the radar of what he usually does and all through the years I work to try to lift us back where we need…to where I need… but I wish he could connect the dots that everything about me fails or I would make different decisions if these feelings are not going to be available to me here. I communicate— but he knows I love him too much to leave. The one thing that would help is if he can have some understanding of what I need, but it doesn’t matter how much I talk about it. I have to keep reminding him that this life where he is on the computer all the time while I am trying to have more family togetherness and that family togetherness is crucial to how I view the meaning of my life…this is not going working for me. I need him to step up. I will talk about it yet again. I keep hoping he will take one of my suggestions and get some tickets to something… but it’s always me that is getting tickets and always has been. I have to at least get his buy-in that he will go with us when I spend money on them. I think I need to tell him again how much a surprise of an experience would mean to me. We will see.

Now this freaking thread really is about me. We passed the point of general information a while back. Lol. Ahh well, maybe it will help someone married to an ENFP somewhere.


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