# ESFP or ISFP?



## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

*Continued from the "am-i-introvert-extrovert-ambivert" Thread*



penchant said:


> The question was directed at adelissa, and I'm generally just trying to make it as open-ended as possible... Really probing for any kind of reaction with regards to Si. And, yeah, it includes those things too, if that is how you would like to describe it.
> 
> But you wouldn't be very strong on Si, would you?


Sorry it was just a question I've been wondering for a while now, if fact though I do have very high use of Si at least according to the functions test I did and redid. It's my 4th highest one and it confused me for a while as to why that was. Plus I do recognize that I do have quite a bit of use of it.



penchant said:


> What makes me a bit unsure about it all is your saying you use Ti "quite a lot". High usage of a tertiary is certainly possible, but if you use it more than your auxiliary, then I would think there would be some history explaining why as well. What I'm saying is, under "normal" circumstances, the auxiliary would be stronger than the tertiary, but that experiences in life that have encouraged the tertiary or discouraged the auxiliary can change that. Do you use your Ti more when feeling more introverted?


Yay even more useful info for me lol. I assume that would also be true of Dominant and Auxiliary as well? I definitely feel that experiences have affected my Auxilliary (Fi) and made it higher than my Dom (Se), I have more than enough reason for that to have happened. This is seriously really enlightening, if you'd like I can take this to another thread or PM? I tried to find out about the effects of trauma and depression or other mental illness/physical issues that you aren't born with and it's quite difficult and apparently there isn't very much on it so I had to jump on this one. The reason I am so adamant about this is I am positive 99.9999% sure Se was first to develop and Fi would be next while I feel Te at the moment and frankly I desperately need Ni to start working and having to wait till I'm about 50 doesn't thrill me lol.

P.S. I don't know if you remember, but I'm the one you asked about the 23 questions for figuring out people's types.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

This is a link to the video I was talking about:




It may be helpful to others to know that there isn't much out there and this lady seems to know what she's talking about and in her channel has loads of videos on MBTI. I'm sure people have stumbled on it already but there it is anyway :happy:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

I think I'll start with some background here. My reason for thinking that your Si would not be among your preferred functions was simple that Si is not one of the primary functions for an ESFP. You could still very much have Si as number four in a function test, or really even number 2 for that matter, as the function tests are not very precise, and your Se will probably spill over to your Si, from what I have seen from others, and myself.

What is more important that the result of a single function in the function test is the overall image. Do you have the results around somewhere?

My second point was basically that function order is not the same thing as usage, ability or competence. And add to that then that all function need some sort of supportive environment to develop naturally, and you would see examples of people that have a very weak auxiliary, or a very weak tertiary even by the age it should have had time to develop. I'm not sure the same would apply to the dominant, and the inferior seems to be very weak for most people anyway. What caught my attention in this was reading some threads here on type development and also on dominant-tertiary loops. I think they are both in the cognitive functions section, but I might have them bookmarked if you want me look them up for you. Or you might have already read them...

What I was trying to get at in the other thread was that less than ideal situations in life might inhibit the healthy development of a function. So just to make it clear we are on the same page: Are you thinking of your dominant being hindered in it's development, or are you trying to find a reason for your auxiliary to feel more natural to you than your dominant? Or, I guess it could be both... And as always, your age matters...


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

penchant said:


> I think I'll start with some background here. My reason for thinking that your Si would not be among your preferred functions was simple that Si is not one of the primary functions for an ESFP. You could still very much have Si as number four in a function test, or really even number 2 for that matter, as the function tests are not very precise, and your Se will probably spill over to your Si, from what I have seen from others, and myself.


How does that happen or manifest? The problem I'm having is determining which SFP I am, I don't relate much to the ISFP but I do to the ESFP descriptions but that isn't the best way to know, at least I get that much. lol I think part of the problem is that I am at a transition point in my life (again) and I'm just starting to get to know what I want and who I am.



penchant said:


> What is more important that the result of a single function in the function test is the overall image. Do you have the results around somewhere?


When I tried to take my time this is what I got, the first 4 are in exactly the same order but the percentages differ.

extraverted Sensing (Se) ***************************************** (41.2)
excellent use
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************************** (34.9)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) **************** (16.9)
limited use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ****************** (18.5)
limited use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ********************* (21.3)
limited use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ************ (12.6)
unused
extraverted Feeling (Fe) *************************************** (39.1)
excellent use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ******************************************************* (55.5)
excellent use



penchant said:


> My second point was basically that function order is not the same thing as usage, ability or competence. And add to that then that all function need some sort of supportive environment to develop naturally, and you would see examples of people that have a very weak auxiliary, or a very weak tertiary even by the age it should have had time to develop. I'm not sure the same would apply to the dominant, and the inferior seems to be very weak for most people anyway. What caught my attention in this was reading some threads here on type development and also on dominant-tertiary loops. I think they are both in the cognitive functions section, but I might have them bookmarked if you want me look them up for you. Or you might have already read them...


This is exactly what I was wondering. I feel that mine wasn't likely supportive at all. I've had depression most of my life even in childhood and my dreams, needs or wishes weren't considered during that time at all, in fact I would say even they were crushed or discouraged and what and who I was not good enough apparently so I tried to fit into this mould which may have exacerbated my depression. I've also had some experiences I think that would have made Fi kick in quite strongly. I heard about loops, but I don't really understand them. I'll look for them as soon as I'm done with this reply.



penchant said:


> What I was trying to get at in the other thread was that less than ideal situations in life might inhibit the healthy development of a function. So just to make it clear we are on the same page: Are you thinking of your dominant being hindered in it's development, or are you trying to find a reason for your auxiliary to feel more natural to you than your dominant? Or, I guess it could be both... And as always, your age matters...


I am sure it was as most of my personality were hindered in development or even after. I'm in my 30s so it's been a long time to figure out all this stuff but depression is a big part of it. It does feel like Se is my natural dominant. The reason I feel Fi is auxiliary is because I feel it's faulty especially when judging people and I'm often wrong and feel stupid because of it or bad because I gave a quick negative judgement. I don't feel I can trust anything that comes from within really, intuition included.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Revy2Hand said:


> This is a link to the video I was talking about:
> YouTube - Myers Briggs (VQ #3): Mental Illness and the MBTI
> It may be helpful to others to know that there isn't much out there and this lady seems to know what she's talking about and in her channel has loads of videos on MBTI. I'm sure people have stumbled on it already but there it is anyway :happy:


I've seen her videos before, and like them... And I think what she is talking about here seems right to me too. I especially like how she points out that the MBTI can really only measure your self-awareness of your traits. And it's too bad there isn't more research or theory on type and disorder, but I think I can see some reasons why... Mainly because it is very difficult to determine which is which, but also because there probably is no one-to-one correlation between the end result and the input of type and disorder, and then of course because we are all individuals. I think that I would try as far as possible to understand personality completely within MBTI and Jung without any added models if possible. It might not be more correct, but it should make the theories more consistent and testable.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

I was imagining that under any kind of stress whether physical or psychological, it would throw you into shadow mode.

Ok I'm having trouble finding the loops thread. *sigh* Sorry.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

They say that you take on your shadow type, I don't though. I feel more ESTJ.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

I am sure I go INTP or INTJ when under stress. The reason I pick INTP over INTJ is because I don't think I am able to operate in J mode.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Revy2Hand said:


> How does that happen or manifest? The problem I'm having is determining which SFP I am, I don't relate much to the ISFP but I do to the ESFP descriptions but that isn't the best way to know, at least I get that much. lol I think part of the problem is that I am at a transition point in my life (again) and I'm just starting to get to know what I want and who I am.


Well, I understand it simply as the test questions not being very precise and so they might put a result as Si when it is really Se. I don't have any more advanced theory, just that that is what seems to be happening.

And I do think descriptions are better than tests, at least if you read more than just one or two. The tests don't really help you more after you have taken the first two or possibly three, but reading up on more descriptions seem to me to give new insights most of the times. Personally I prefer spending equal time reading type descriptions and function descriptions.



> When I tried to take my time this is what I got, the first 4 are in exactly the same order but the percentages differ.
> 
> extraverted Sensing (Se) ***************************************** (41.2)
> excellent use
> ...


Lol that Fi is literally off the charts... :crazy: And I see how it fits your thinking. Fi+Se in some form. And the high Fe and Si are most likely just side effects of the test in my opinion.



> This is exactly what I was wondering. I feel that mine wasn't likely supportive at all. I've had depression most of my life even in childhood and my dreams, needs or wishes weren't considered during that time at all, in fact I would say even they were crushed or discouraged and what and who I was not good enough apparently so I tried to fit into this mould which may have exacerbated my depression. I've also had some experiences I think that would have made Fi kick in quite strongly. I heard about loops, but I don't really understand them. I'll look for them as soon as I'm done with this reply.
> 
> I am sure it was as most of my personality were hindered in development or even after. I'm in my 30s so it's been a long time to figure out all this stuff but depression is a big part of it. It does feel like Se is my natural dominant. The reason I feel Fi is auxiliary is because I feel it's faulty especially when judging people and I'm often wrong and feel stupid because of it or bad because I gave a quick negative judgement. I don't feel I can trust anything that comes from within really, intuition included.


As I understand it depression would make you lean more on you introverted functions, Fi in your case, and possibly Ni, but I'm more comfortable with that model for introverts. For an introvert, withdrawing from threatening situations and using less of their extraverted auxiliary, would lead to an unnatural dependence on the dominant and tertiary, possible to the point where you could call it a loop. For extraverts the loops is in the extraverted functions, and I'm not sure how that works if it is the extraverted function that has been suppressed. Some quick googling pointed to this post (Strength of Functions: Dominant and Auxiliary) and more generally the entire thread, which seems interesting, though I haven't skimmed it all...

To go back to your question about ISFP or ESFP: it would seem logical to me that you are now developing a stronger use of your tertiary, which for ISFP is Ni and for ESFP is Te. Seeing that you relate to your Te developing and don't see much Ni in yourself, points clearly towards ESFP.

Did you find anything interesting on the loops?


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Revy2Hand said:


> I was imagining that under any kind of stress whether physical or psychological, it would throw you into shadow mode.
> 
> Ok I'm having trouble finding the loops thread. *sigh* Sorry.


Sorry for pointing you in the wrong direction. It was among the articles: http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

No I found some mentions and they said what you did basically that it's only the intraverted ones together and the extraverted ones together never a mix.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

firedell said:


> They say that you take on your shadow type, I don't though. I feel more ESTJ.


I'm not so sure about the shadow type thing either, but I have to admit I haven't read much about it.

Going from ESFP (SeFiTeNi) to ESTJ (TeSiNeFi) seems a bit odd though. Are you sure you are not just staying ESFP but ignoring your Fi and going all out on Se+Te?



Revy2Hand said:


> I am sure I go INTP or INTJ when under stress. The reason I pick INTP over INTJ is because I don't think I am able to operate in J mode.


(Assuming ESFP) ESFP (SeFiTeNi) to INTP (TiNeSiFe) also seems quite jumbled up. INTJ (NiTeFiSe) makes a lot more sense to me. I would reconsider that as your "stress" type if I were you...


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Revy2Hand said:


> No I found some mentions and they said what you did basically that it's only the intraverted ones together and the extraverted ones together never a mix.


And this: Strength of Functions: Dominant and Auxiliary ?
And don't bother reading past the first page, the rest is just mindless trolling.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

lol ok. 

I figured it would be INTJ (or ENTJ if I am indeed ISFP), I just don't know enough about the negative sides of different personalities to have made a solid judgement on that one. I just got done the first link on the loops, very interesting and I know I'll have to read that all a few more times to understand it, so now on to the next link.



penchant said:


> Lol that Fi is literally off the charts... :crazy: And I see how it fits your thinking. Fi+Se in some form. And the high Fe and Si are most likely just side effects of the test in my opinion.


I know, I compared the number to others and I think only one person had a higher function than my Fi. What would that signify then and why can't I trust it because it's all too often wrong?


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Well, no hurry... I need to go to sleep now anyway... So I'll catch up with whatever you have written when I come back!


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

Ahh good timing I gotta get to work shortly. I forgot time differences. I'm rally getting a lot of useful info though and I'll mull it over till I see you next. Have a good sleep :happy:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

So I used the time to read throught the full thread again to sift for more information. Some things came to mind...

1. Would you mind taking the function test again, just to compare with the previous result?

2. Is there any reason that you would not want to be an ISFP, besides not believing you are one? Is there any particular reason for you wanting be an ESFP?

3. What you say about finding using Se before Ni more "logical" seems natural to an ESFP. For some reason though this doesn't show on your function test. Are you sure that you are taking the test really answering what would seem more "logical" to you, or more based what you normally do?

4. When looking at http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html which were the disorders that you could relate to more than the others? Totally disregard the type associations for this exercise!

5. Considering your SAD I understand that it might be more difficult for you to relate to Se and Te in a social context. How would you describe your use of Se and Te when working on something on your own, or when having new experiences?

My thinking so far is that being a Se-dom with suppressed Se and suppressed Te could give the impression of dominant Fi and strong dependence on just one function in some situations. I don't know what that would look like, but maybe you could find more information on strong Fi-doms. Just a guess from my side is that relying heavily on just one function could in some circumstances look similar to a younger person who haven't had the chance to develop further functions.

As for stress, I can see how overloading Fi could result in simply denying that function and trying to rely on T instead. Both depression and anxiety are afaik avoidance strategies (but now I'm mixing in Freud here and I really should be reading more Jung before jumping to conclusions). I'm not sure then if that would lead you to use more introverted functions, but I would guess so. If so then what would shut down is primarily Se, and then Te, which you might not have had much chance to develop. You also say that your mother would describe you as Se-dominant during your childhood. It also seems from your description that your Se shows itself when you feel comfortable around other people.

Well, that my round of random thoughts for this time... :happy:


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

penchant said:


> So I used the time to read throught the full thread again to sift for more information. Some things came to mind...
> 
> 
> 1. Would you mind taking the function test again, just to compare with the previous result?


Sure. I've done it 3 times already and the numbers move around quite a bit so I'm wondering if I'm interpreting things right at all.




penchant said:


> 2. Is there any reason that you would not want to be an ISFP, besides not believing you are one? Is there any particular reason for you wanting be an ESFP?


No I just can't relate to the descriptions of which I have read many and now I'm thinking I have made a crucial mistake about the details regarding Dom, Aux, Tert, Inf. As far as wanting to be ESFP, I couldn't believe it actually for the longest time until I did some introspection and since I'm in the middle of figuring myself out and my needs and dreams that I wasn't who I thought I was, that I was forced into a mould from about 5-6 years old when I started school. It was a rather authoritarian school where there teachers loved to dish out humiliating corporal or not punishments for the smallest things like speaking out about anything. I learned quickly to keep my mouth shut and that is what they reinforced I think. For all the times I wasn't under stress or (I call it oppressed) I seem to fit the ESFP description almost perfectly. Another problem with figuring out stuff like that is since I've had physical issues and numerous really bad experiences I've withdrawn quite a bit and became afraid to pursue what I wish I could. Sorry that was long but I think it might be useful.




penchant said:


> 3. What you say about finding using Se before Ni more "logical" seems natural to an ESFP. For some reason though this doesn't show on your function test. Are you sure that you are taking the test really answering what would seem more "logical" to you, or more based what you normally do?


You mean Fi? Ok so maybe I was right then? I answer based on what I do as honestly as I can, and with difficulty at some of the questions especially some of the language (which from what I read is normal if we don't use said function) those that I could say both or neither. The ones I have most difficulty understanding are usually T or N related by the looks of it. 

I've been thinking about this since yesterday and I think I have figured out something. I was assuming (I may be right I don't know) that at any give time you start off with the Dom then judge from there with Aux. And if that fails you try Tert. and if that fails Inv. Another thing I figured out what that I really think I made an error in when the cognitive process kicks in. I had such a hard time imagining how an introverted function can perceive things as the first step, well I still do since many people are intraverts so there's something there I think I got messed up or don't understand properly.

I remember reading about how everyone take in data from the outside and that the functions what happens after, so I started to wonder how taking in data from the environment and switching to Se would actually manifest or work. I can see it with Ni, Te, or Fi though for some reason so that tells me I've missed something.




penchant said:


> 4. When looking at http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html which were the disorders that you could relate to more than the others? Totally disregard the type associations for this exercise!


Believe it or not because of my experiences I used to wonder if I had developed AvPD. I can see it's not possible since they are an extreme version of social anxiety which I have a very mild form of. I didn't relate to the OCD one really, though I wish I could for other reasons lol. Under major stress I definitely had Paranoid PD type issues but at least most of the time I was being illogical. It was a really bad time for me, that's all I can really say.




penchant said:


> 5. Considering your SAD I understand that it might be more difficult for you to relate to Se and Te in a social context. How would you describe your use of Se and Te when working on something on your own, or when having new experiences?


Now we get to another issue I have lol. I don't think I can for either but I'll try. Se I notice details that I'm pretty sure no one else pays any attention to like on tv I'll be watching a sport and notice what people in the crowd are wearing, their signs, , their expressions, etc. And those stupid tickers drive me nuts when the scroll! Don't know if that has anything to do with it but I thought I'd add that lol. My eyes go right to it so I have to physically block it. Really annoying. Another one I can think of is I'm constantly recognizing people from other shows and know what show it was, what was happening, what they played, etc. Not all the time but it does happen a lot, same thing goes for voices when I'm not watching I'm able to know who it is often. I use Se deliberately when I go for my walks early in the morning as a mindfulness exercise and I make sure I'm not judging anything by their names or anything, and it's quite exhilarating when the weather's just right. I'm in love with Se lol. I regularly use it when I'm eating or drinking something I absolutely love and it's also incredible when tweaked just right. Same with the other senses, in fact I have this weird thing where my eyes water if for example I'm looking at someone I find extremely attractive for the first time especially or when excited watching sports and I see an amazing move. My ears are super sensitive too and I can feel something physically weird happening when I'm listening to something I really love, not all the time but it does enough for me to have noticed. I'm wondering if this is where the term "eargasm" came from. Another thing I'm reminded of is if there's tension in the room I can physically feel quite tense myself and it's quite overwhelming, even if it's between someone else I don't know at all. I think I've covered both areas you wanted, hopefully. :happy:

Te, well I'm still not sure on this one but I think I may have got something. Recently out of nowhere it seems like I got way less sensitive emotion-wise and I'm really really difficult to get going even though I definitely can, I used to have such problems just being around sad people for instance, because they'd also affect me. It's like the yawning thing kind of, where one person does and everyone else who sees it does after. For the past few years I've been caring much much more about logic, I'm sure that has nothing to do with it but the timing seems right for something like Te to kick in. I can no longer believe in god for example because I find it completely illogical, though I used to find it logical that there was right before that. But all that never meant anything to me. I honestly don't know what I can give on that one though since I'm not even sure how it works because it's especially complicated for me to get that one and Ni, and the other N and T.




penchant said:


> My thinking so far is that being a Se-dom with suppressed Se and suppressed Te could give the impression of dominant Fi and strong dependence on just one function in some situations. I don't know what that would look like, but maybe you could find more information on strong Fi-doms. Just a guess from my side is that relying heavily on just one function could in some circumstances look similar to a younger person who haven't had the chance to develop further functions.


Ahh so that might be why the almost double the "excellent use" scores on the test? That's very interesting I hope to find more about that then. I definitely feel like I'm arrested in development and my doc says I am since I'm quite teenish/young adultish, yet I have no idea what being my age or any age means so it makes it kind of difficult. Especially when what no one believes my age when I tell them.




penchant said:


> As for stress, I can see how overloading Fi could result in simply denying that function and trying to rely on T instead. Both depression and anxiety are afaik avoidance strategies (but now I'm mixing in Freud here and I really should be reading more Jung before jumping to conclusions). I'm not sure then if that would lead you to use more introverted functions, but I would guess so. If so then what would shut down is primarily Se, and then Te, which you might not have had much chance to develop. You also say that your mother would describe you as Se-dominant during your childhood. It also seems from your description that your Se shows itself when you feel comfortable around other people.


Ok because that would create a Se-Te loop? If she knew what Se was she might, I know I haven't thought of any evidence of Fi kicking in until massively stressed at school and a really bad personal experience I got caught in the middle of. That would have been around 12 years old I had that one and I can't think of any time before that but my memory might not be reliable or I just haven't thought of anything yet. I still think I'm missing info on Se since you could see that and I can't. lol




penchant said:


> Well, that my round of random thoughts for this time... :happy:


Thank you so much. I really appreciate your taking time to help, it seems I'm gathering all the data I need to make a decision on I or ESFP. I'm gonna do the test now and post results when done.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

Alright I took my sweet time on this one and I even saved my questions/answers if useful let me know. I certainly have comments on some questions though. I couldn't believe what I saw when I entered the answers:

extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************************************** (42)
excellent use
introverted Sensing (Si) ****************************** (30.2)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************ (24.8)
average use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) *************** (15.2)
unused
extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************** (20.9)
limited use
introverted Thinking (Ti) **************** (16.5)
limited use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********************************** (34.5)
good use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ******************************************************* (55.3)
excellent use

Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: ESFP

Lead (Dominant) Process
Extraverted Sensing (Se): Immersing in the present context. Responding naturally to everything tangible you detect through your senses. Checking with what your gut instincts say. Testing limits and take risks for big rewards.

Support (Auxilliary) Process
Introverted Feeling (Fi): Staying true to who you really are. Paying close attention to your personal identity, values and beliefs. Checking with your conscience. Choosing behavior congruent with what is important to you.

If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ISFP, or ENFP

If these results are different from what you know of yourself, you might consider why your developmental pattern does not align with your expectation. You might also consider exploring this result as a possible better fit.

The Four Temperaments
Corresponding best-fit temperaments based on your profile: Improviser; secondly Catalyst; then Stabilizer; and lastly, Theorist.
==============
Since Fi was still higher how come it didn't come out ISFP?

And I didn't enter my type at all at the end I'm wondering if that's what I did wrong?


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Revy2Hand said:


> Alright I took my sweet time on this one and I even saved my questions/answers if useful let me know. I certainly have comments on some questions though. I couldn't believe what I saw when I entered the answers:
> 
> extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************************************** (42)
> excellent use
> ...


Seems Ne came forward out of nothing, compared to previous results... :happy:

'll be reading and commenting the rest now... :happy:


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