# Integration/disintegration



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I think this part is extremely poorly portrayed and explained in the enneagram literature but needs to be discussed because it's such a vital aspect of the theory. Integration and disintegration are often described as appearing as or behaving like the type that your type connects to i.e. for type 6, a disintegrated 6 is someone who acts or looks like a 3 and an integrated 6 is a 6 who looks like or acts like a 9 and you see discussion revolving around this as well e.g. "If I should behave like my integration point I will integrate" or "a disintegrated type X looks like type Z". That's not how the lines of connection work and I think this is a gross over-simplification of how the types actually work and is probably a big reason why many people initially mistype even after they start delving deeper into the theory e.g. reading up on the motivations like the holy ideas, especially as the type that represents their disintegration point. The reason for this is because at average to low levels of health, every type is going to manifest the logic of the type it disintegrates towards within themselves as a coping mechanism in order to deal with their actual type issue.

As an example, let's look at type 6 again:

Average to unhealthy 6s do not suddenly look like 3s, but they _think_ that the mechanics of type 3 is going to help them gain security in life. They become overly focused on their image and how others see them and they think that in order to feel secure in life they need to be successful similar to how type 3 seeks to be successful. They feel a need that they must be more social, more popular, performing better at work and in school, they must be the bread winner and the number one so there's a sense of always feeling a need to be more adept at whatever they do and they keep comparing themselves to how they fare against the performance of others and always feeling like they are falling short which in turn creates a perpetual cycle of always needing to be better than they already are because good enough is never enough. 

This is actual disintegration, the coping logic we fall back on that is reflected in the type we connect to in order to deal with our type's core issue. The same can easily be applied when it comes to integration so again, if taking type 6 as an example:

When the type 6 is able to adequately apply the "easy comes, easy goes" logic of type 9 and just care less about the world in general in the same way the type 9 is detached from it, it allows them to stop doubting and worrying about never being good enough in order to survive. They can relax and get more in touch with the actual flow of life, realizing that they already possess sufficient life strategies in order to deal with life as it is. 

While I think most people have a decent grasp of the integration point, I think disintegration is inadequately understood, perhaps because people are more likely to see their point of integration than disintegration within themselves. It's therefore not enough to identify the type structure unless one can also identify as to what that structure is dealing with.


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Enneagram History and Origins: The Traditional Enneagram


> Gurdjieff taught the symbol primarily through a series of sacred dances or movements, designed to give the participant a direct, felt sense of the meaning of symbol and the processes it represents. What Gurdjieff clearly did _not_ teach was a system of types associated with the symbol.


 This means that everyone has access to all of the types, and there's even a dance to teach you how to do it.

You also have the strengths AND weaknesses of the types in your disintegration AND integration path (source: personal experience, but also mentioned in Janet Levine's Enneagram Intelligences book). An eight who has worked her way up to two will eventually have to deal with two problems to some degree. Those same problems that would cause a normal two to disintegrate into eight. Yeah, an eight has to work that path as well.

An eight who has disintegrated is using five'ish processes to cope. The process to move back to eight means working out the problems fives have with integration. Eights will also suffer from five's temptations.

Your health levels don't magically teleport you to a different type, and you don't just add/lose the strengths/weaknesses of another type. They're cumulative, because duh, that's how you integrate. You are still your base type(s), but integration means you can use strategies/processes of other types more easily. Disintegration means it's harder.


----------



## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

I agree. I think it's really easy to confuse that in order to integrate we simply copy the behaviors of the integrated type as enneagram newcomers, when skimming through the descriptions.

The issue with accurate typing is we have to find a way to get around the ego structures so that it doesn't direct us towards the behaviors or ideal-image, but rather how we objectively see ourselves to be. E.g. there tends to be an self-identification with level 2 when most people are in the average level 5; same applies for arrows of integration & disintegration.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

So I guess the big question is, HOW do you actually go about integrating? What actions do you actually take? Do you take any actions at all, or is it just a natural process that happens as you become more aware of yourself and your personality structure? Maybe the more you "catch yourself in the act", the more you naturally start acting out your integration point.

While integration is clearly not JUST copying behaviors of the integration point, I think copying behaviors can actually be a good tool. Our personalities play out in a cognitive/behavioral loop. We think it, we do it, we think it again, we do it again. But if you force yourself to ACT differently, that can sometimes cause you to think differently, which again causes you to act differently... And that's a major part of breaking out of your personality structure. As a nine, it's really helpful to me to know how threes act, because it means that if I force myself to act like a three, I can break out of that closed loop. 

BUT, as I become more self aware, I also just start naturally acting like a three, without trying, which seems more like REAL integration. And what this means is not that I've become a three, but that I've become balanced. Because I'm acting the opposite of how I used to act.


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

charlie.elliot said:


> So I guess the big question is, HOW do you actually go about integrating? What actions do you actually take? Do you take any actions at all, or is it just a natural process that happens as you become more aware of yourself and your personality structure? Maybe the more you "catch yourself in the act", the more you naturally start acting out your integration point.


 A little from column A, a little from column B, a little of this and that, and some factors beyond your control. Sometimes trauma occurs in an unexpected time, and overcoming that accelerates growth. Not that you should go out of your way to put yourself in a position to do so, but because those situations place a heavy burden on your normal defensive strategies so you have to move to somewhere else to compensate.


> While integration is clearly not JUST copying behaviors of the integration point, I think copying behaviors can actually be a good tool. Our personalities play out in a cognitive/behavioral loop. We think it, we do it, we think it again, we do it again. But if you force yourself to ACT differently, that can sometimes cause you to think differently, which again causes you to act differently... And that's a major part of breaking out of your personality structure. As a nine, it's really helpful to me to know how threes act, because it means that if I force myself to act like a three, I can break out of that closed loop.


 I agree! Though mimicking behaviors of another type won't lead you to real integration, I still think it could be useful. But maybe that's type three logic? 


> BUT, as I become more self aware, I also just start naturally acting like a three, without trying, which seems more like REAL integration. And what this means is not that I've become a three, but that I've become balanced. Because I'm acting the opposite of how I used to act.


 Balanced! Sounds like something someone whose type is in a triangle point would say!


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cir said:


> Enneagram History and Origins: The Traditional Enneagram
> This means that everyone has access to all of the types, and there's even a dance to teach you how to do it.
> 
> You also have the strengths AND weaknesses of the types in your disintegration AND integration path (source: personal experience, but also mentioned in Janet Levine's Enneagram Intelligences book). An eight who has worked her way up to two will eventually have to deal with two problems to some degree. Those same problems that would cause a normal two to disintegrate into eight. Yeah, an eight has to work that path as well.
> ...


Yes, but if we are talking about disintegration and integration, I think the meaning is quite clear on what is being suggested in that they represent two specific points and that our type is stuck between these points. I never once implied for example, that one becomes issue-free once one moves to one's higher point being integration, but one is able to let go of the ego delusion of how to cope with one's core type motivation. I think the argument is more whether one can actually change type throughout one's life and if one is a firm believer of type being inborn, I would have to say the answer to that is no. 

Not entirely sure we actually think of integration and disintegration the same way here though. I do think the pattern of the enneagram is clear, however, in that the types do move in a specific way as opposed to another way in order to achieve the higher self. This also goes back to how I think the original symbol is inaccurate in portraying this because it actually breaks the mathematical symmetry which was originally created by changing type 5 to move to 7 and 8 as opposed to 8 and 2, and similarly for type 4. The underlying logic behind this I am unsure of, but I have to say that speaking to individuals of various types and observing the system myself, I think this is highly incorrect though that's perhaps somewhat for another thread. 



charlie.elliot said:


> So I guess the big question is, HOW do you actually go about integrating? What actions do you actually take? Do you take any actions at all, or is it just a natural process that happens as you become more aware of yourself and your personality structure? Maybe the more you "catch yourself in the act", the more you naturally start acting out your integration point.


I think the real problem is the phrasing of this question in that you seem to imply that it necessitates action. For some types like 6 that are very conscious about needing to act, I think the coping strategy of acting may very easily backfire. There is no cookie cutter way here and sometimes our health is not just a result of our own inner workings but also something that is affected by our environment. Leaving an unhealthy environment may therefore have very profound effects on its own. For some people more active mindfulness may be useful, for others not so much. Depends on the type, the issues and its structure of how it tries to cope with things. 



> While integration is clearly not JUST copying behaviors of the integration point, I think copying behaviors can actually be a good tool. Our personalities play out in a cognitive/behavioral loop. We think it, we do it, we think it again, we do it again. But if you force yourself to ACT differently, that can sometimes cause you to think differently, which again causes you to act differently... And that's a major part of breaking out of your personality structure. As a nine, it's really helpful to me to know how threes act, because it means that if I force myself to act like a three, I can break out of that closed loop.
> 
> BUT, as I become more self aware, I also just start naturally acting like a three, without trying, which seems more like REAL integration. And what this means is not that I've become a three, but that I've become balanced. Because I'm acting the opposite of how I used to act.


For me anyway, self-awareness is integral because the first step of improving a problem is to actually be aware of that there _is_ a problem. Without that awareness we can try all we want but it won't do a thing since we don't even know wtf we are supposed to do.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

@Entropic, yes thats a fantastic point, that sometimes the environment causes us to integrate/disintegrate and it's beyond our control. Thats something I keep forgetting- I have that tendency to think I control everything I think. Especially since starting to explore spirituality, I tend to think that I can use Jedi mind tricks or something to completely control my thought process and my feelings, but clearly that's not true. I should try to think about which envirnoments cause me to naturally integrate or disintegrate.

Also I suppose I am naturally biased towards thinking that integration should involve action, since thats the virtue of my type: ACTION  But I could see how integration for other types might be some other process. 
And, finally, yes, AWARENESS is the one thing you absolutely cannot do without. You could know absolutely nothing about the enneagram and still "integrate" so to speak, with a diligent practice of awareness. If you're trying to integrate and dont have a handle on what mindful awareness means, you need to figure it out haha.


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Yes, but if we are talking about disintegration and integration, I think the meaning is quite clear on what is being suggested in that they represent two specific points and that our type is stuck between these points. I never once implied for example, that one becomes issue-free once one moves to one's higher point being integration, but one is able to let go of the ego delusion of how to cope with one's core type motivation. I think the argument is more whether one can actually change type throughout one's life and if one is a firm believer of type being inborn, I would have to say the answer to that is no.


 I don't disagree with what you are saying at all. I'm clarifying what I think are common misconceptions, because there are people who think otherwise, and therefore, "integration is impossible, because no one is ever free of any troubles, etc."

I just think that when you're given points, the idea is to figure out how to move between them and figure out when to use which routes. For example, I understand the 7-9 movement better than I understand the 5-2 movement, and I don't think they're too entirely different. I don't think you change types as much as you are more flexible and adaptable and can use strategies that weren't open to you before, which you solve by integration. Which, for most people, can be achieved by just growing up.


> Not entirely sure we actually think of integration and disintegration the same way here though. I do think the pattern of the enneagram is clear, however, in that the types do move in a specific way as opposed to another way in order to achieve the higher self. This also goes back to how I think the original symbol is inaccurate in portraying this because it actually breaks the mathematical symmetry which was originally created by changing type 5 to move to 7 and 8 as opposed to 8 and 2, and similarly for type 4. The underlying logic behind this I am unsure of, but I have to say that speaking to individuals of various types and observing the system myself, I think this is highly incorrect though that's perhaps somewhat for another thread.


 I don't think there's a singular pattern of the enneagram; there are many, many, many patterns, and they all ultimately lead to the same place. This is one of the things experiencing the Holy Plan showed me. As long as you are moving, more things come up, and most of them, to me, support the same conclusion, and gives the Holy Truth more of that heavy converging feeling.

For example, type nine's basic fear are all synonyms for disintegration, their basic desire are all synonyms for integration, and they, more than any other type, can tap into the qualities of all of the other types. We're supposed to eventually figure out what processes all of the other types represent because that makes us whole, because we were born with the capacities of all nine types within us.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cir said:


> IWe're supposed to eventually figure out what processes all of the other types represent because that makes us whole, because we were born with the capacities of all nine types within us.


Yes, but whereas for you this seems to be a random movement, to me the movement is well-structured. I don't for example think a 2 can suddenly move to 9 but 2 must first deal with the entire rejection triad before it can move to next triad.


----------



## Hespera (Jun 3, 2011)

Riso & Hudson point out that while types move toward disintegration during stress, there can also be unhealthy tendencies when the types go to their security point (the average version of their integration type). 

I also like Sandra Maitri's take on what she calls the heart point (basically the integration point but slightly different, as described here).


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

sarahmariev said:


> Riso & Hudson point out that while types move toward disintegration during stress, there can also be unhealthy tendencies when the types go to their security point (the average version of their integration type).
> 
> I also like Sandra Maitri's take on what she calls the heart point (basically the integration point but slightly different, as described here).


Where is the "heart point" described in that link you provided? I don't find it. Also, how do R&H see disintegration in particular? Not just the whole type X becomes Y under stress, but do they mention anything at all how the disintegration type actually permeates in the average to unhealthy psyche in that type?

The bottomline being, I can identify my disintegration during stress just fine, but I don't feel this aides much in actually overcoming your type issues which is a much more permeating kind of mentality.


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Yes, but whereas for you this seems to be a random movement, to me the movement is well-structured. I don't for example think a 2 can suddenly move to 9 but 2 must first deal with the entire rejection triad before it can move to next triad.


 I don't think it's random. I think movement around the circumference of the circle is also a valid path towards integration. I think a two can move to nine if they can work out how the type one process bleeds into both.

But that doesn't mean you can't get a "head start" by trying to see how other people utilize those other processes that are foreign to me. For me, I am much more likely to cognitively understand the model (from seven) before I can emotionally mirror it.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cir said:


> I don't think it's random. I think movement around the circumference of the circle is also a valid path towards integration. I think a two can move to nine if they can work out how the type one process bleeds into both.
> 
> But that doesn't mean you can't get a "head start" by trying to see how other people utilize those other processes that are foreign to me. For me, I am much more likely to cognitively understand the model (from seven) before I can emotionally mirror it.


We differ in that regard in that I don't think a 2 can move to 1 and then go to 9 from there. As I wrote, I think it would have to solve the rejection triad issues first in that a 2 would first have to go to 5, then back to 8, and from there move to 9.


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Entropic said:


> We differ in that regard in that I don't think a 2 can move to 1 and then go to 9 from there. As I wrote, I think *it would have* to solve the rejection triad issues first in that *a 2 would first have to go to 5, then back to 8, and from there move to 9.*


 I don't believe that the enneagram has only one movement that people must follow in order to integrate. The enneagram is supposed to be a dynamic system, meaning that there are multiple ways to approach the subject of integration. People switching wings are moving around the circumference. The paths across the circle are from "disintegration/integration". Your wings absolutely do the "integration/disintegration" movements as well. Granted, while moving along the circumference, I think it's harder the further you move away your base type, but I don't think it's impossible, especially if those connections are supported by the integration/disintegration lines as well.

People don't fully develop a process and then move on; they get hints and fragments of something, and over time, those experiences accumulate/integrate into a better understanding of a type/process. These kinds of movements will naturally happen even if people don't know about the enneagram.

A two can shift to the one wing, and using any experience they've learned from 2<->8, it is possible to get a better understanding of nine. And/or a two can shift to the three wing, and then figure out how to move 9<->3. And/or become good friends with a nine. While they aren't "fully" grasping the essence of nine, genuinely trying to, accepting feedback, and then revising behavior accordingly means they are probably on the right path. People with 9w1 and two in their tritype will probably be able to figure out a better movement that works for them.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Where is the "heart point" described in that link you provided? I don't find it. Also, how do R&H see disintegration in particular? Not just the whole type X becomes Y under stress, but do they mention anything at all how the disintegration type actually permeates in the average to unhealthy psyche in that type?
> 
> The bottomline being, I can identify my disintegration during stress just fine, but I don't feel this aides much in actually overcoming your type issues which is a much more permeating kind of mentality.


The disintegration point is actually good for you. Its something that comes into play when we are sliding down the levels of health, and actually works as a brake. It keeps us from sliding down further. So we start to act like that type, but its better than acting like an even lower level of our own type. The disintegration point is like a fever; its a sign that you're unhealthy, but its not the problem itself. Its actually trying to help you. 

Your disintegration point is actually also your ultimate level of integration. Im not exactly sure why, but thats what I was taught (in the Riso-Hudson school of thought.) 
Im not sure about how the d. point manifests in average levels-- I guess it would be helpful to you, though, even if you were in the average range. Bottom line is, BOTH your disin. point and your intg. point are helpful to you.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cir said:


> I don't believe that the enneagram has only one movement that people must follow in order to integrate. The enneagram is supposed to be a dynamic system, meaning that there are multiple ways to approach the subject of integration. People switching wings are moving around the circumference. The paths across the circle are from "disintegration/integration". Your wings absolutely do the "integration/disintegration" movements as well. Granted, while moving along the circumference, I think it's harder the further you move away your base type, but I don't think it's impossible, especially if those connections are supported by the integration/disintegration lines as well.


Well, some people think wings integrate/disintegrate, some people don't, some people don't even support the idea of wings. I don't have a personal opinion on it as I have yet to figure out and understand how the wings work for me. 



> People don't fully develop a process and then move on; they get hints and fragments of something, and over time, those experiences accumulate/integrate into a better understanding of a type/process. These kinds of movements will naturally happen even if people don't know about the enneagram.


Obviously, because the enneagram isn't the only explicit system on being able to explain human growth. 



> A two can shift to the one wing, and using any experience they've learned from 2<->8, it is possible to get a better understanding of nine. And/or a two can shift to the three wing, and then figure out how to move 9<->3. And/or become good friends with a nine. While they aren't "fully" grasping the essence of nine, genuinely trying to, accepting feedback, and then revising behavior accordingly means they are probably on the right path. People with 9w1 and two in their tritype will probably be able to figure out a better movement that works for them.


Again, we differ. I don't have a strong opinion on that the wings aid connections in such a way, so it's whatever to me. I'm supposedly 9 wing, or in the very least, I know I got 7 and 9 as wings and while it helped me to realize I was an 8 to begin to fully grasp 9 that was a pure enigma to me in the past, I do not at all understand type 6 for example, even though that 6 has a connection to 9. Same for 3. So our experiences differ in that regard.



charlie.elliot said:


> The disintegration point is actually good for you. Its something that comes into play when we are sliding down the levels of health, and actually works as a brake. It keeps us from sliding down further. *So we start to act like that type, but its better than acting like an even lower level of our own type.*


Eh, this seems very messy and confusing to me. What's the difference? Isn't disintegration an indication of sliding down the lower levels of _your _type?



> The disintegration point is like a fever; its a sign that you're unhealthy, but its not the problem itself. Its actually trying to help you.


How? Disintegration becomes a coping mechanism to deal with your core fear. How is that healthy? It creates a perpetual cycle of unhealth because it tries to satisfy a need that cannot be satisfied with the method that is being used. 



> Your disintegration point is actually also your ultimate level of integration. Im not exactly sure why, but thats what I was taught (in the Riso-Hudson school of thought.)
> Im not sure about how the d. point manifests in average levels-- I guess it would be helpful to you, though, even if you were in the average range. Bottom line is, BOTH your disin. point and your intg. point are helpful to you.


Sure, both play a role in growth but they reflect two very different realities of your core type.


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Well, some people think wings integrate/disintegrate, some people don't, some people don't even support the idea of wings. I don't have a personal opinion on it as I have yet to figure out and understand how the wings work for me.


 The people who don't think wings integrate/disintegrate would be wrong, and/or they have poor control over their wing. I *know* they do. There is a huge difference between going to five from eight, and going to five from seven. To think that they don't means failing to use a resource that is easily at their disposal, and that's their loss.


> Again, we differ. I don't have a strong opinion on that the wings aid connections in such a way, so it's whatever to me.


 Sure they do. The enneagram is a system to show that human behavior is not random. There are many properties that are inherent in a system based around circles/circuits/closed loops with nodes and connections that I have absolutely no reason to doubt that it couldn't be applicable here (sevens are synthesizers, so there's no convincing me that it can't). Systems engineering works even when you're dealing purely with people, a feedback loop being the most obvious application that almost everyone uses.


> I'm supposedly 9 wing, or in the very least, I know I got 7 and 9 as wings and while it helped me to realize I was an 8 to begin to fully grasp 9 that was a pure enigma to me in the past, I do not at all understand type 6 for example, even though that 6 has a connection to 9. Same for 3. So our experiences differ in that regard.


 Well, we have the rest of our lives to fill in the details to those connections. I believe that my eight/seven control has improved the more I understand how other types operate and how those processes are reflected within me.


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

charlie.elliot said:


> Your disintegration point is actually also your ultimate level of integration. Im not exactly sure why, but thats what I was taught (in the Riso-Hudson school of thought.)


 Because when you keep integrating, you will eventually make a full loop. Your starting point is your base type, and your ending point is your disintegration point. Integration requires you to be working in an inclusive manner, probably utilizing the strengths of the types you're passing through.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cir said:


> The people who don't think wings integrate/disintegrate would be wrong, and/or they have poor control over their wing. I *know* they do.


That you know that based on your own anecdotal experience doesn't mean much though. 



> There is a huge difference between going to five from eight, and going to five from seven. To think that they don't means failing to use a resource that is easily at their disposal, and that's their loss.


I don't even believe in that 5 and 7 are connected so it's whatever to me. 



> Sure they do. The enneagram is a system to show that human behavior is not random. There are many properties that are inherent in a system based around circles/circuits/closed loops with nodes and connections that I have absolutely no reason to doubt that it couldn't be applicable here (sevens are synthesizers, so there's no convincing me that it can't). Systems engineering works even when you're dealing purely with people, a feedback loop being the most obvious application that almost everyone uses.
> Well, we have the rest of our lives to fill in the details to those connections. I believe that my eight/seven control has improved the more I understand how other types operate and how those processes are reflected within me.


What does it mean to control a type?


----------



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Entropic said:


> That you know that based on your own anecdotal experience doesn't mean much though.


 People selectively ignore Riso/Hudson, who stated that this is possible. 


Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery said:


> As you know from the Guidelines, each personality type has a Direction of Integration and a Direction of Disintegration, as indicated on the Enneagram on the following page. Each type's wing also has a Direction of Integration and Disintegration. The wing's directions follow the same patterns we have already seen. For example, in a Nine with a One-wing, the Direction of Integration for the One-wing is to Seven, and its Direction of Disintegration is to Four. Likewise for all the wings of the subtypes.


My experience says this is possible. It only takes one evidence of something being possible to disprove a "you cannot do" statement. If people refuse to believe that it's possible, then that's their loss. People have figured out how to do it, and just because those other people haven't, doesn't mean they get to assert, as if it's a fact, that it's impossible. Holy Truth should be ringing.

The enneagram is supposed to help people _overcome_ their limitations, and saying that your wings can't move, while neglecting the people who can be split close to 50/50 between base type and a wing seems ridiculous to me. To me, it seems pretty clear that on the circumference on the circle, my position is somewhere close to halfway between eight and seven.


> I don't even believe in that 5 and 7 are connected so it's whatever to me.


 I do know that there's a large part of me that is a nerdy little soul child who wants to hide from the world, and I have a slightly bigger portion of needy clingy soul child.


> What does it mean to control a type?


 My eight/seven processes are ones that I spend the fewest amount of energy/resources to utilize. The more I try to understand/use 5/1/9/2, the more energy/practice it takes. I think there is some energy/other intangibles loss/delayed when trying to convert between modes.


----------

