# How do you distinguish between Ti and Fi



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

bearotter said:


> @_fourtines_, yes the thing about internal consistency but founded on a load of BS bothers me too. I tend to avoid that, mainly by making basically rabid use of 3 perceiving functions (Si, Ni, Ne), so I don't limit my Ti's premises to a load of crap.
> 
> It results in my getting along great with feelers. I understand them even from a Ti perspective, because perceiving functions can help a lot in mediating different reasoning styles.


Well that's what I like to point out about Ti, because Ti-ers often complain about Fi-ers subjective passion for their ethics, or the way we can internalize things to relate to ourselves, it's not that I don't appreciate Ti, but I am keenly aware of when Ti goes wrong because it's an opposing function to my preference.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@fourtines: yes I can't really identify with Ti-ers who do that. Personally, I see all the functions having their respective places.


----------



## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> I relate VERY strongly to both Ti and Fi. I am everything Ti is, yet I'm also extremely soft and empathetic. I protect people's feelings and would never deliberately do anything to hurt them. The only way I can tell that I'm an INTP and not an INFP is through the inferior function. I don't relate AT ALL to inferior Te, but inferior Fe fits me perfectly.
> 
> So I wouldn't rely on statements like "Fi is more empathetic" to distinguish whether you use Ti or Fi. Yes, Fi is more empathetic, but the Fe of a Ti user can make one just as empathetic. Ti-Fe and Fi-Te can look identical in a lot of situations, but where they split off I think is under stress.
> 
> ...


Fi is sympathetic. Fe is empathetic. 
Fi *can* only be empathetic when two parties have similar experiences. That way the Fi user can relate to the other and make a connection. But depending on their values, a Fi user can be just as empathetic if their values clash - similar experience or not - as a die hard autistic NT to throw in a stereotype here. Fe doesn't need to have those similar experiences.

Or am I preaching bollocks?


----------



## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> Fi *can* only be empathetic when two parties have similar experiences. That way the Fi user can relate to the other and make a connection. Fe doesn't need to have those similar experiences.


Does anything happen to the Fe users when they empathize?
I can't really imagine how you can empathize without having similar experience to relate to first


----------



## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

uncertain said:


> Does anything happen to the Fe users when they empathize?
> I can't really imagine how you can empathize without having similar experience to relate to first


I think it has everything to do with the values why an ENFP can clash with an ENFJ for example. An ENFP looks for similarities (see previous post) or is just..ahem..a bit goofy to establish a human connection.
*An ENFJ for example is supposed to feel what is going on with a person and reaches out to that particular emotion the other person is displaying/feeling: Fe<--->empathy*. If an ENFJ has great intuition, they can be good at reading people.
ENFP's rely on other filters to read people.


----------



## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

uncertain said:


> Does anything happen to the Fe users when they empathize?
> I can't really imagine how you can empathize without having similar experience to relate to first


You mean like getting caught up in an Empathy cycle


----------



## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

myjazz said:


> You mean like getting caught up in an Empathy cycle


I guess?


----------



## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> I think it has everything to do with the values why an ENFP can clash with an ENFJ for example. An ENFP looks for similarities (see previous post) or is just..ahem..a bit goofy to establish a human connection.
> *An ENFJ for example is supposed to feel what is going on with a person and reaches out to that particular emotion the other person is displaying/feeling: Fe<--->empathy*. If an ENFJ has great intuition, they can be good at reading people.
> ENFP's rely on other filters to read people.


But still, even if you get to know another person's situation, but if you haven't gone through similar things that make you feel the similar way, how can you...

idk. If someone tells me things and I understand what's going on but I myself have not gone through the same thing I can kind of empathize (or sympathize?) If I have similar experience then I can empathize much better without feeling uncomfortable or uncertain. But regardless of experience I can be affected by another person's story and feel sorry for them without necessarily knowing why I feel that way, which is kind of weird.


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

All in Twilight said:


> Fi is sympathetic. Fe is empathetic.
> Fi *can* only be empathetic when two parties have similar experiences. That way the Fi user can relate to the other and make a connection. But depending on their values, a Fi user can be just as empathetic if their values clash - similar experience or not - as a die hard autistic NT to throw in a stereotype here. Fe doesn't need to have those similar experiences.
> 
> Or am I preaching bollocks?


This is the clearest distinction I've found between sympathy and empathy: (source: What is the Difference Between Sympathy and Empathy?)



> Sympathy: What I am feeling as a result of something another person has experienced. The experience influences my response. I would have a judgment about the experience itself.
> 
> Empathy: What I reflect to another about their own emotions about their own experience. Here it is about their emotions not the actual experience. Here there is no connection to the experience on its own, but to the emotions of the other as they have the experience.


The difference makes sense, in theory. But do people really only use one or the other? How could a person care about someone's feelings but not be affected by or have feelings about the tragedy that person went through? How could someone be deeply affected emotionally by another person's tragic experience, yet not imagine what the person must have felt going through that? I suppose they _could_...but it just seems weird to me. Each of them alone without the other seems imbalanced...shallow even...only feeling half of the story.


----------



## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

Are Fi and Fe actually opposite to each other and incompatible within oneself?
I mean if you have a strong Fi then you will have a weak Fe, or vice versa.


----------



## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

uncertain said:


> But still, even if you get to know another person's situation, but if you haven't gone through similar things that make you feel the similar way, how can you...
> 
> idk. If someone tells me things and I understand what's going on but I myself have not gone through the same thing I can kind of empathize (or sympathize?) If I have similar experience then I can empathize much better without feeling uncomfortable or uncertain. But regardless of experience I can be affected by another person's story and feel sorry for them without necessarily knowing why I feel that way, which is kind of weird.


I would suggest that we bring in a Fe-dom anyway. But..

I remember that my ex was talking about herself and she started to cry. Now, I started crying with her but not because I felt what she was feeling but because it affected me. I cared for her and I wanted to hug her and tell her that she shouldn't be afraid. (I am Fi) 
I think a Fe-dom absorbs the emotions of the "victim". They also sense danger. They just know/feel when a person is up to no good.


----------



## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Someone on PerC posted that Ti and Fe make something that looks like Fi. And that Fi and Te make something that looks like Fe. I thought that concept seemed interesting.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@uncertain:

To examine an analogous situation, are Ti users weak in Te? Well, the thing is Te is unnatural for me. I probably use mostly Ti, even to complete traditionally Te tasks, and Te reasoning is highly subconscious and "uncontrolled" for me. It's one interpretation I think of how shadow function use might manifest.

That said, some are more balanced.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

meltedsorbet said:


> Someone on PerC posted that Ti and Fe make something that looks like Fi. And that Fi and Te make something that looks like Fe. I thought that concept seemed interesting.


That was probably me :wink:


----------



## Ocean91 (Dec 6, 2012)

Maybe a practical example I experienced at school and which helped me understand what’s the difference between Fi and Ti could help you too.

Once, during one of the first English lessons of the scholastic year, a student who was repeating the year and was the worst in English refused to have an oral exam because, obviously, she didn't study but didn't want a bad mark, and proposed desperately: "Well, if someone would want to replace me?..." Then the teacher replied, sarcastically and theatrically extending arms: "Why? Is there someone who wants to?".

Now:
- If you are a strong *Ti* user, you may think: "Absolutely not, she hasn't studied, so a bad mark is exactly what she deserves. If she wants to get out of school, she has to learn to study more first..." (that was what my INTP classmate/best-friend thought)
- If you are a strong *Te* user you may think the same of Ti, but if you studied enough you could think that replacing her and getting a good mark could make you more popular among both your classmates and teacher, and so you could be elected as "class representative" or something similar to gain better marks and so on, I don't know how...
- If you are a strong *Fe* user, you may think: "Poor thing, she isn't very keen on this subject, I should help her!", you feel sorry and then maybe you are happy to go replacing the classmate, although you haven't studied, thinking that whatever mark you get you will have the gratitude of the unlucky girl and the admiration of every classmate, and that’s enough for you
- If you are a strong *Fi* user (like me), you are a little bit sorry for the student even though she deserves it, but as you hear the cynical tone of voice of the teacher, your brain cry aloud "WHY NOT?” because you think that only because the majority of students in similar situations would stay in their place, this doesn’t mean nobody could feel like helping someone else. So your hand lift up automatically, wanting to prove that the basic assumption of the teacher is wrong, and ignoring completely the shocked looks of you classmates and your teacher who know how shy you are.

Notice that Ti is thinking it’s taking its stand on a “value”, while Fi is thinking it’s taking its stand on a “logic”. I always acted thinking I was using “impersonal logic” (Ti), but actually I always acted using a “personal logic” (Fi), that is a line of reasoning – usually based on values -very few people would have in mind in that situation, but still, once you explain it, very few people would call it “illogical” (my INTP friend thought it was logical, at any rate).

I hope it can help!


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Ocean91 said:


> Maybe a practical example I experienced at school and which helped me understand what’s the difference between Fi and Ti could help you too.
> 
> Once, during one of the first English lessons of the scholastic year, a student who was repeating the year and was the worst in English refused to have an oral exam because, obviously, she didn't study but didn't want a bad mark, and proposed desperately: "Well, if someone would want to replace me?..." Then the teacher replied, sarcastically and theatrically extending arms: "Why? Is there someone who wants to?".
> 
> ...


Seems a bit like generally being a bit of a rebel on the Fi thing 
Tho I have noticed that a lot of Fi doms do like to rebel.

I'd say that this is accurate. Could you post this in a new thread? So that it will be more visible for other people wondering about it.


----------



## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Honestly tho, comparing Ti and Fi is inaccurate. It's almost like comparing the differences of a physicist and a neuroscientists, they are both scientists so they should be easy to compare, right? It's not impossible, but you can basically be both a physicist and neuroscientist.
> 
> Fi is always bound with Te. You can't have Fi without Te.
> Ti is always bound with Fe. You can't have Ti without Fe.
> ...


Lol, I'm not so sure I can explain it clearly at all 



All in Twilight said:


> I think it has everything to do with the values why an ENFP can clash with an ENFJ for example.* An ENFP looks for similarities* (see previous post) or is just..ahem..a bit goofy to establish a human connection.


The bolded sentence is correct although in a different context, Fi looks for similarities in values. 

Fe values are derived from education, whatever value judgements Fe is taught are acceptable are the determining factors for their judgements. This is because they look outwards for the correct answers. They accept each value in the context it's presented. 

Fi looks for similarities across all values, the determining factors aren't within the context that they're presented by education. 
It emphasises the similarities that align with the innate images from within themselves. So it categorises value and importance by a different set of criteria than Fe does. 

I see it like this, if everyone was Fi, all looking within and having different values dictating what behaviour is acceptable according to each individual situation, then it would be a chaotic society. If everyone was Fe, then they would all believe that the external values were the correct ones and then values wouldn't ever change or ever be altered to suit individual situations. 

So there needs to be a concensus to keep some sort of established order within a society and because Fe looks externally they all arrive at similar conclusions and this makes up the consensus. There also needs to be those who don't look outwards and instead adapt values to circumstances that a consensus can't accommodate for and also to begin the process of making changes in value judgements. 
By opposing each other, each attitude balances out society's values.


----------



## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Neverontime said:


> The bolded sentence is correct although in a different context, Fi looks for similarities in values.
> 
> Fe values are derived from education, whatever value judgements Fe is taught are acceptable are the determining factors for their judgements. This is because they look outwards for the correct answers. They accept each value in the context it's presented.
> 
> ...


Following on from my previous post and back on topic, the same principle applies regarding Ti and Te. Te's judgements are derived from education, the external facts are perceived as correct and true within each context. Ti's judgements are determined by similarities in a similar way to Fi's values. Since as we know, external facts can turn out to be incorrect. So there needs to be those who aren't oriented by the objective facts in order to move ideas forward and to uncover previous mistakes. 

When it comes to T and F, we have F looking out for the people (or even animals) and T looking out for the 'things'. If everyone were F then it would be a reasonably harmonious society and the people would be well cared for but we wouldn't have achieved or discovered much that has come about as a result of various levels of suffering. It's difficult to achieve many things when you're concerned about everybody's feelings because you can't please everyone. So there needs to be Thinkers who aren't focused on people therefore won't consider the impact of their actions on people's feelings, but instead only focus on the achieving results. 

So, I can see how the overall balance has been achieved by the different attitudes and perspectives all opposing each other and fighting there own corner.


----------



## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

uncertain said:


> But still, even if you get to know another person's situation, but if you haven't gone through similar things that make you feel the similar way, how can you...
> 
> idk. If someone tells me things and I understand what's going on but I myself have not gone through the same thing I can kind of empathize (or sympathize?) If I have similar experience then I can empathize much better without feeling uncomfortable or uncertain. But regardless of experience I can be affected by another person's story and feel sorry for them without necessarily knowing why I feel that way, which is kind of weird.


With a strong Fe you feel the other persons emotions or how they feel, even if they don't even realize it sometimes.
For instance there was an INFP I once knew who had a strong well balanced Fi. She had strong emotions about her and I noticed this right away. This was very peculiar to me in the way she did so for instance we started a semi-philosophical discussion. And when she dug down and got what she wanted to bring forth she would have a really strong emotional connection to her ideas and thoughts. At first I was caught of guard in the way she did so and the intensity of it. In a way it is just like what Jung say's about Fi that the thoughts are felt. As if they was combined together and her feelings was connected to her beliefs, ideas, or thoughts. I am unsure if she really comprehend just how much of an emotional response she had, She even lite up when she spoke about it. Like I said at first I was really caught off guard by it in the way it happened. As time went by she would do the same thing on many occasions, I would catch myself trying to see if I can trigger it just to make sure. This was also before I got into cognitive functions but from her I can really understand how Fi users can be with such a thing as Jung mentioned and several Fi users talk about. It is different with Fi dom and Fi users though. Usually non Dom Fi users would have the emotional or feelings aspect more buried down inside. 

Back to Fe, almost like Fi users can be with their emotions an strong Fe user can do the same but from other people a lot of times. 
So in the instance of Empathy it doesn't matter if we experienced the same thing or not. The Fe latch's onto the emotional side of the other person and slightly feel their pain with them. And be able to Empathize with them and through Fe and T consult them. With INFJ's we have Ni dom and Fe second in this our Ni also can and will latch on. Which is what allows an INFJ that extra push that makes people go what the hell


----------



## Roark (Dec 23, 2012)

Just adding a couple more points I've found to help me understand Fi and Ti...

Fi is very similar to how Ti understands logic, except with feelings.

Fi is constantly forming a moral web and system to understand what they truly believe is right/good.

Just because the Fi user has Fi, it does not mean they will 100% do what they believe is morally correct. It's just that they understand what they believe is right or moral. 

Similarly, Ti wants everything to make sense logically, but that does not mean they always act in a 100% logical manner. They just have their own observations of what they believe to be correct.


----------

