# Lana del Rey Enneagram Type



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Let's discuss Lana del Rey's Enneagram type! I have seen mixed opinions on her type and I am curious what the general consensus on her type is. I haven't included instincts on the poll but obviously we can discuss this as well as her tritype, and parenthetically MBTI type.

As usual, I hope this thread will be both an interesting ground for discussing the artist and the types in question.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

I don't know, for some reason I just get Sp 6 vibes from her, though I'm starting to become more convinced of 2


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Philathea said:


> I don't know, for some reason I just get Sp 6 vibes from her, though I'm starting to become more convinced of 2


I've actually seen someone else argue 6 for her! I can see bits of it here and there; definitely think it's her fix at least)


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I could see sp/sx 6w7 but I can't see 6, if that makes sense.
7w6 is another possible option.


But I still think 2w3.


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## Scarlet Eyes (May 15, 2015)

I still see SP/SX 2w3. 

But if for some reason she isn't that type, I can see 6w7. She definitely has a strong 6 fix though.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

2w3-6w7-9w8 Sp/Sx

That's my impression... I'm pretty convinced of the first two fixes and the core being 2w3, and I'm pretty convinced of sp/sx, 9w8 is more of a guess.

All of her songs are very love-needy. And there's this blatant focus on awareness that she will age; it's more about self preservation (literally) and losing her youth or beauty and thus being unlovable. She also has that Sp2ish need to be taken care of by someone.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

One thing I thought of to point to her being 2w3 rather than 4w3, but I'm not sure, would be the line in one song "Tell me you own me"

That seems more like a line likely to come from a Two (or Six, can't think of any other type) than a Four...or? Most Fours I know seem to have a really strong aversion to anything suggesting such a...possibility

edit: as would a lot of Twos and Sixes, obviously, I"m just trying to think in terms of overall likelihood

Though I guess it could point to disintegration or...y'know, just a line

This song feels quite Two as well.





_
My baby lives in shades of blue
Blue eyes and jazz and attitude
He lives in California too
He drives a Chevy Malibu

*And when he calls
He calls for me and not for you*
He lives for love, he loves his drugs
He loves his baby too

*But I can't fix him, can't make him better
And I can't do nothing about this strange weather

But you are unfixable
I can't break through your world*
'Cause you live in shades of cool
Your heart is unbreakable

My baby lives in shades of cool
Cool heart, and hands and aptitude
He lives for love, for women, too
I'm one of many, one is blue

And when he calls
He calls for me and not for you
He prays for love, he prays for peace
And maybe someone new

But I can't help him, can't make him better
And I can't do nothing about his strange weather

'Cause you are unfixable
I can't break through your world
'Cause you live in shades of cool
Your heart is unbreakable

(You're hot, hot, weather in the summer
High, high, neglectful lover
Hot, hot, weather in the summer
High, a bird flew over
You're crumbling, sadly
I'm sorry
You're gone with me)

You are unfixable
I can't break through your world
'Cause you live in shades of cool
Your heart is unbreakable_

But Four?










(I don't know, I'm now kinda doubting her type)


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

Lana del Rey's music is all about sadness, tragic beauty, pain of life, being lost, being broken, poetry of sadness/being messed up etc.
That seems about as 4 as you can get. Yes she has a lot of themes of dependency, daddy issues but those are more done in an unhealthy type 4 way than a 2 way. Four's focus a lot on relationships too and the way she does this is like a 4 not like a 2. and also 4's disintegrate to 2. I could say more about why I think she's a 4 but I mean everything points to 4 so there is too much to say and pretty much any example would be an example of 4. The true essence of Lana's music and her in interviews is all very much type 4. Just because someone sings about relationships and wanting love doesn't make them a type 2. You have to look at the way she singing about those themes and the real essence of what she's about.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

pippylongstocking said:


> Lana del Rey's music is all about sadness, tragic beauty, pain of life, being lost, being broken, poetry of sadness/being messed up etc.
> That seems about as 4 as you can get. Yes she has a lot of themes of dependency, daddy issues but those are more done in an unhealthy type 4 way than a 2 way. Four's focus a lot on relationships too and the way she does this is like a 4 not like a 2. and also 4's disintegrate to 2. I could say more about why I think she's a 4 but I mean everything points to 4 so there is too much to say and pretty much any example would be an example of 4. The true essence of Lana's music and her in interviews is all very much type 4. Just because someone sings about relationships and wanting love doesn't make them a type 2. You have to look at the way she singing about those themes and the real essence of what she's about.


...can you elaborate, though? I'm not expert at just seeing essences)

For me, everything does not point to 4, and I don't see why the way she is singing about these things is particularly 4. Can you explain it (with an example?)

(I am starting to feel genuinely confused about her type so I would genuinely like to hear this; I am not just trying to prove my point :tongue


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> ...can you elaborate, though? I'm not expert at just seeing essences)
> 
> For me, everything does not point to 4, and I don't see why the way she is singing about these things is particularly 4. Can you explain it (with an example?)
> 
> (I am starting to feel genuinely confused about her type so I would genuinely like to hear this; I am not just trying to prove my point :tongue


But do you see this? "Lana del Rey's music is all about sadness, tragic beauty, pain of life, being lost, being broken, poetry of sadness/being messed up etc."
Because anything I site as an example is basically going to saying that again with some more details or points thrown in. But that is my main or most obvious point of why she is a 4. The way she is singing about relationships is basically within those themes listed above which are all very much 4 type themes/characteristics. I can try and give a specific example though and expand/elaborate a bit as well...


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

pippylongstocking said:


> But do you see this? "Lana del Rey's music is all about sadness, tragic beauty, pain of life, being lost, being broken, poetry of sadness/being messed up etc."
> Because anything I site as an example is basically going to saying that again with some more details or points thrown in. But that is my main or most obvious point of why she is a 4. The way she is singing about relationships is basically within those themes listed above which are all very much 4 type themes/characteristics. I can try and give a specific example though and expand/elaborate a bit as well...


Well...I know what you mean I think, but I don't know that I see it as either her _principle_ theme or as exclusively Four (though definitely Four-influenced)...I'm sure I can think of artists who sing more about these things (if I could think of any artists)

_Ride_ is probably the most obvious example of the 'broken, beauty in pain' thing...such an annoying monologue, I hate when artists feel compelled to do it (Taylor Swift did it too!)

I'm going to put in blue things that seem Four and red things that seem Two; I think this song could be interpreted both ways :/
Also feels a bit Seven btw
Freedom things blue just because it's supposedly Two's passion

_I was in the winter of my life, and the men I met along the road were my only summer.
At night I fell asleep with visions of myself, dancing and laughing and crying with them.
Three years down the line of being on an endless world tour, and my memories of them were the only things that sustained me, and my only real happy times.
I was a singer - not a very popular one,
I once had dreams of becoming a beautiful poet, but upon an unfortunate series of events saw those dreams dashed and divided like a million stars in the night sky that I wished on over and over again, sparkling and broken.
But I didn't really mind because I knew that it takes getting everything you ever wanted, and then losing it to know what true freedom is.
When the people I used to know found out what I had been doing, how I'd been living, they asked me why - but there's no use in talking to people who have home.
They have no idea what it's like to seek safety in other people - for home to be wherever you lay your head.
I was always an unusual girl.
My mother told me I had a chameleon soul, no moral compass pointing due north, no fixed personality; just an inner indecisiveness that was as wide and as wavering as the ocean... *Ok this part intrigues me; I wonder if Fours would really describe themselves as chameleons, surely they have a stronger sense of inner identity - but that also seems Four; I also don't relate to it at all so idk*
And if I said I didn't plan for it to turn out this way I'd be lying...
Because I was born to be the other woman.
Who belonged to no one, who belonged to everyone.
Who had nothing, who wanted everything, with a fire for every experience and an obsession for freedom that terrified me to the point that I couldn't even talk about it, and pushed me to a nomadic point of madness that both dazzled and dizzied me.

I've been out on that open road
You can be my full time daddy,
White and gold
Singing blues has been getting old
You can be my full time baby,
Hot or cold

Don't break me down
I've been travelin' too long
I've been trying too hard
With one pretty song

I hear the birds on the summer breeze,
I drive fast, I am alone in midnight
Been tryin' hard not to get into trouble,
But I, I've got a war in my mind
So, I just ride, just ride,
I just ride, just ride

Dying young and I'm playing hard
That's the way my father made his life an art
Drink all day and we talk 'til dark
That's the way the road dogs do it – ride 'til dark.

Don't leave me now
Don't say good bye
Don't turn around
Leave me high and dry

I hear the birds on the summer breeze,
I drive fast, I am alone in midnight
Been tryin' hard not to get into trouble,
But I, I've got a war in my mind
I just ride, just ride,
I just ride, just ride

I'm tired of feeling like I'm fucking crazy
I'm tired of driving 'til I see stars in my eyes for some reason, idk
It's all I've got to keep myself sane, baby
So I just ride, I just ride

I hear the birds on the summer breeze,
I drive fast, I am alone in midnight
Been tryin' hard not to get into trouble,
But I, I've got a war in my mind
I just ride, just ride,
I just ride, I just ride

[Music video spoken ending:]
Every night I used to pray that I'd find my people, and finally I did on the open road.
We had nothing to lose, nothing to gain, nothing we desired anymore, except to make our lives into a work of art.
Live fast. Die young. Be wild. And have fun.
I believe in the country America used to be.
I believe in the person I want to become.
I believe in the freedom of the open road.
And my motto is the same as ever:
"I believe in the kindness of strangers. And when I'm at war with myself I ride, I just ride."
Who are you?
Are you in touch with all of your darkest fantasies?
Have you created a life for yourself where you can experience them?
I have. I am fucking crazy.
But I am free.
_

So idk what to do with that

But I mean...most of her songs are really more...


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Why isn't she sx-first? Every single song is about her relationship with a particular person.

Overall, I'm seeing 4.

*"I have a personal ambition to live my life honestly and honor the true love that I've had and also the people I've had around me."

"I used to wonder if it was God's plan that I should be alone for so much of my life. But I found peace. I found happiness within people and the world."

"I have taken my music to labels for years, and everyone just thought it was creepy. They thought the images with the music were weird and verging on psychotic."

"I knew I wanted to do something creative. I didn't think I'd have the luxury of doing something like that, because I didn't know anyone who had pursued anything they really adored, but I had dreams for singing or writing."

"When you’re an introvert like me and you’ve been lonely for a while, and then you find someone who understands you, you become really attached to them. It’s a real release." 

*And look at how these two quotes relate to Riso-Hudson's 4 Overview description:

*"I once had a dreams of becoming a beautiful poet, but upon an unfortunate series of events some of those dreams dashed and divided like a million stars in the night sky that I wished on over and over again, sparkling and broken."*

*"When I was young I felt really overwhelmed and confused by the desire not to end up in an office, doing something I didn't believe in."

*


> Fours may not know who they are, but they certainly believe they know who they are not. While these idiosyncrasies can be fairly harmless in and of themselves, as Fours increasingly depend on them to figure out who they are, they begin to paint themselves into a corner. *In the interest of maintain a narrowly defined self-image, Fours may refuse to engage in many basic activities necessary to live their lives. (“Poets don’t work in an office.”)*


*"If you are born an artist, you have no choice but to fight to stay an artist."

"I write my own songs. I made my own videos. I pick my producers. Nothing goes out without my permission. It's all authentic."*

And her lyrics: 

*We had nothing to lose, nothing to gain, nothing we desired anymore
Except to make our lives into a work of art*

Riso-Hudson in his recording on Type 4:



> "Above all, 4s want their life to be a work of art. They want to achieve something beautiful despite the loneliness, suffering, and despair that's so often felt, at least that's their hope and their fantasy."


And in The Wisdom of the Enneagram:



> "Once liberated from their Basic Fear, Fours become a work of art and no longer need art as a substitute for the beauty that they find in abundance in themselves."


Echoing Blanche Dubois, another 4w3, from Tennesse Williams' Streetcar Named Desire. I see 7-fix in this song.

*And my motto is the same as ever - 
I believe in the kindness of strangers.
And when I'm at war with myself - I ride. I just ride.*






And look at instincts:

Sexual Fours: Infatuation (Ichazo's "Competition") 
Sexual Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in their intimate relationships. They are perhaps the most emotionally intense type of the Enneagram, which is both their gift and their potential downfall. They possess both a capacity and a desire for profound intimacy, and they derive tremendous insight into human nature through the ups and downs of their romantic lives. *They have a sultry, sullen quality that can be attractive and mysterious, or at times, off-putting to others. Sexual Fours pour their energy and attention into the object of their affection, often becoming infatuated or even obsessed, sometimes after only one meeting.* Sexual chemistry triggers their powerful imaginations, leading them to create enormous expectations of potential partners. Sexual Fours tend to be drawn to people who possess qualities and talents that they believe they lack. They want to complete themselves by associating or merging with the valued other. But this almost never works, so they may also end up envying and resenting their romantic partner for unintentionally reminding them of what they feel they are missing. In any case, Sexual Fours go through tremendous shifts of feeling about their loved ones—everything from idolization to unbridled hatred. *Generally speaking, this type is aware of these feelings, including the dark ones, and finds ways to express them, sometimes in self-destructive ways.*

And Lana's lyrics:


> *Who are you?
> Are you in touch with all of your darkest fantasies?
> Have you created a life for yourself where you can experience them?*
> I have. I am fucking crazy.
> But I am free.


OR

Self-Preservation Two: Entitlement (Ichazo's "Me First")
Twos typically deal with their own self-preservation needs by first taking care of others' self-preservation needs. They feel that they will win others' love by providing them with nurturing and caretaking. They derive a great deal of satisfaction from feelings of service to others or to causes. They are able to anticipate people's needs and then try to fulfill them. ("You poor thing, you look hungry.") Of course, after taking care of others for a while, Self-Pres Twos begin to expect that others will reciprocate and take care of their needs. But because they are Twos, they feel that they cannot ask directly for what they need. They must drop hints and continue to take care of the other person with the hope that he or she will eventually respond with care for the Two. Over time, this gives Self-Pres Twos a feeling of entitlement. ("After all I've done for them, I deserve this treat.") The problem is that Self Pres Twos feel ashamed of having physical needs. Thus, when others fail to reciprocate in the way that Twos hope, they may privately overindulge in self-preservation "goodies"—comfort foods, sweets, drink, and prescription medicines are frequent choices. They keep hidden stashes of their favorite indulgences as a way of compensating for feelings of loneliness and rejection. Unfortunately, the rewards that Self Pres Twos give themselves often endanger their health and well being, which ironically, undermines their ability to help others.

Sexual Two: Craving Intimacy (Ichazo's "Aggression")
Sexual Twos feel that they will feel loved by attaining complete, profound intimacy with someone. Thus they are driven to be as close to their loved ones as possible. They attempt to win a place with people by focusing intensely on the other's needs, hopes, and interests. They enjoy the process of learning about potential partners and make it their business to become acquainted with the other's world. It is as if the Sexual Two was seeking to get "in synch" with the other in as many different ways as possible. Similarly, the Sexual Two will enjoy finding out what the other likes, whether it is a favorite food, cologne, style of music, or favorite place for vacationing. Needless to say, Sexual Twos will then do their best to provide these things for their intimates. Moreover, most people love to be the center of attention, and Sexual Twos know this, lavishing the other with attention, affection, and praise. In this sense, they are seductive-getting others interested in spending time with them by making the other their object of adoration. Sexual Twos also like to touch and be touched by the people they are drawn to, often initiating physical contact in a relationship—even in a friendship. When less balanced, Sexual Twos can become obsessed with a lover and can have great difficulty letting go of a relationship.

Yes, I can see the argument for 2, but if she's any 2, it's sx-2, which doesn't seem to be the consensus for her instincts.

And comparing 2 vs 4 (Riso-Hudson):


> Twos and Fours can be confused primarily because they are both Feeling types, and because they both put great emphasis on the ups and downs of their personal relationships. Even with these similarities, however, these two types are seldom mistaken for each other. When they are, it is usually because they are defining the types too narrowly. For instance, some Twos might mistype themselves as Fours if they have been through a depression or have recently been through the end of an important relationship. They may learn that Fours are a depressive type and deduce that since they have been depressed that they are probably Fours. In fact, all nine types can be depressed: feeling sad or alienated in itself is not an indication of being any particular type. Twos may also hear that Fours are romantic, and seeing themselves as romantic mistype themselves. Female Fours who have been reared in traditional or strongly religious environments may identify themselves as Twos, but this is a danger for woman of all types. Some Fours may also have been under stress for a while may similarly recognize many Two-ish behaviors.
> 
> Their differences are not difficult to recognize, however. Twos tend to move toward others and engage them, sometimes excessively. Fours tend to withdraw from others, while hoping that others will seek them out. *Twos look for people to rescue, Fours look for someone to rescue them. Twos are very aware of others’ feelings, but tend to be unaware of their own motivations and needs. Fours are highly attuned to their own emotional states, but can fail to recognize their impact on others, and so forth.*


From Off to the Races:



> Because I'm crazy baby, I need you to come here and save me
> I'm your little scarlet, starlet, singin' in the garden
> Kiss me on my open mouth
> Ready for you


Compare to actual 2w3 Mariah Carey's "You Need Me":



> Wait a minute
> Before you walk away
> Let me finish
> I've got a lot to say
> ...


Lana's "I need you to come here and save me" (4) vs Mariah's "Baby, remember you need me" (2).

Or, this song from Mariah - "Any Time You Need A Friend." Again, very Type 2:



> If you're lonely
> And need a friend
> And troubles seem like
> They never end
> ...


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

@mistakenforstranger for instincts, there's all this






(title says it all)






* *





You said I was the most exotic flower
Holding me tight in our final hour

I don't know how you convince them and get them, but
I don't know what you do, it's unbelievable
And I don't know how you get over, get over
Someone as dangerous, tainted and flawed as you

One for the money, and two for the show
I love you honey, I'm ready, I'm ready to go
How did you get that way? I don't know
You're screwed up and brilliant,
Look like a million dollar man,
So why is my heart broke?

You got the world but baby at what price?
Something so strange, hard to define

It isn't that hard boy to like you or love you
I'd follow you down down down,
You're unbelievable
If you're going crazy just grab me and take me
I'd follow you down down down, anywhere anywhere

One for the money, two for the show
I love you honey, I'm ready, I'm ready to go
How did you get that way? I don't know
You're screwed up and brilliant,
Look like a million dollar man,
So why is my heart broke?

One for the money, two for the show
I love you honey, I'm ready, I'm ready to go
How did you get that way? I don't know
You're screwed up and brilliant,
Look like a million dollar man,
So why is my heart broke?

I don't know,
You're screwed up and brilliant,
Look like a million dollar man,
So why is my heart broke?




She reminds me most of Odette de Crécy from Remembrance of Things Past. A sp 2

(btw I think Proust's a Four who writes a lot of Two women...Odette and Albertine were both sp 2 (maybe 6) and the Duchess of Guermantes social or sexual 2)

Well, I couldn't find a quote but I did find a comic book version lol










I'll respond/look at the rest of the post in a bit; descriptions are so time-consuming to read))


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Disintegration to Two I see more like:

(Sinead O'Connor idk about, Four seems likely, I saw Five and Four looking online, but this song was written by Prince so it works)








> It's been seven hours and fifteen days
> Since u took your love away
> I go out every night and sleep all day
> Since u took your love away
> ...









> I am longing for your poison
> Like a cancer for its prey
> Shot an arrow, in your harbor
> Where you waited in the rain
> ...


_______________________________

Both songs imo are more...raw I guess, than anything Lana sings, and they also have a Twoish thing, lyrics could literally be read in a Two way but it _feels_ like disintegration, it feels like something's wrong, with Lana similar things feel like status quo.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Niha said:


> 4 is more so "who am I and how can I be the better version of myself (image) so that he can love me?" when disintegrating to two, imo. Two would be more focused on what the other person needs, and I don't see that focus here. She is glamorizing parts of herself that she believes will be rejected, so she present those in a more likable/lovable way. Focus is very much on the self.


I'm not sure I understand the distinction here. I mean, what is the difference between a Four glamorizing the parts of themselves that they think will be rejected, so that she'll be loved, and a Two making themselves lovable? Neither of those seem really focused on the self.

edit: I mean they do in the sense of self-improvement but, I don't know
How can any image type avoid...working on their image?


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Niha said:


> Just for the sake of argument:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see it as 4 envy (A life that you want) with 3-wing influence (role models, perhaps?), and an arrow to 1 (Find out what they did and do it). You might find this article interesting, which actually questions Lana as Fi-dom now, huh? I do find a lot of her website and its points questionable, though. It's written by an INFJ.

INFJ or INFP? a closer look


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Niha said:


> I did not mean it as self-improvement. If you remember what I shared in FT, you will know where I am coming from. She doesn't seem selfless enough to be a 2. "I am bad" is the prominent, overwhelming thought in her head. Bad as in flawed, unworthy of life, love, etc...
> 
> Two is making herself lovable by being what others need her to be; 4 is making herself lovable by being herself but only showing the parts in a way that will elicit love.


(I think you edited that comment before I got to it)

Yeah, I'm not sure about Lana anymore, but I would disagree that type 2 is so 'selfless' as all that, in that way I mean...no one can be always just reflected light, people are not mirrors...

...though I guess this is an area where I feel my understanding of the types to be really low, especially when trying to put myself in there; I'm sure I'm not a 4, but...I have no ability to take myself out of an equation))

I can see your argument for so 4 in that a lot of her music is identity based but only with a group in mind, but...something feels wrong, I think 2 feels better, or...


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Niha said:


> Just from personal experience because it's hard to put into words:
> 
> I have lied to myself into believing I really cared about someone, when that wasn't true. The fear of abandonment was too big for me, with certain people, and I think my tritype plays into this - I would agree with their assessment of who I was even though it was killing me inside, because it wasn't true. The fact that they didn't see me was killing me. But to deal with the fear I would often present those parts of me in a (hopefully) nicer image. But all of that honestly perpetuated the cycle of rejection, and self-rejection, again and again...And I would lash out again feeling that they didn't love me for me.
> _4s believe their flawed image makes them worthy of life, of love. _And that's actually what I believed too.
> ...


(This is making my brain hurt, extremely confusing topic for me)

I don't know if this is what I see from Lana but I'm also not fully understanding this concept so...)

I mean, I don't see her addressing this concept, I think...


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

It would help if there was a better comparison point than Taylor Swift :frustrating:

It's partly hard because they kinda have to be singer-songwriters for it to work


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

another vote for 2w3 Sp/Sx


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I think others have considered this guy to be a 2 

I guess I agree though I would rather he be a 9

Definitely not doing me any favors Lana-wise))






edit: He has better songs/music videos))






"I love you like before"

Even going as far as to make the Johnny Depp facial expression


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Niha said:


> Lana reminds me of Electra Heart (not Marina, but _Electra Heart_) - albeit more gentle (I believe Marina has 8 in her tritype).


I agree!

I think the difference is that Electra (not sure about Marina) is a 3(w4) while Lana is a 2(w3)

I mean, Electra always sounds fake, the general concept seems to be void of nothing + image, whereas Lana's concept seems to be more void of loneliness with image and STUFF flowing into it

That sounds weird, idk how to put it

Btw I see Melanie Martinez as a 4 and I think that's more, idk, image core thing spilling into a void

Like, comparison


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> It would help if there was a better comparison point than Taylor Swift :frustrating:
> 
> It's partly hard because they kinda have to be singer-songwriters for it to work


She's a very good example of the type. And Taylor Swift does have her melancholy songs, but it isn't the entire focus of the album. Lana's so dreary all the time. Have not listened to her newest album yet.











*So this is me swallowing my pride*,
Standing in front of you saying, "I'm sorry for that night,"
And I go back to December all the time.
It turns out freedom ain't nothing but missing you.
Wishing I'd realized what I had when you were mine.



> Passion: Pride
> Pride is the caused by the loss of the virtue of humility. But pride is said to be the root of all evil and underlies all of the Capital Sins, so to distinguish it further, we can also call this vainglory. *Vainglory is a pride in one’s own goodness, taking a special satisfaction in one’s own virtue, seeing oneself only as a loving, well-intentioned person. The passion is not the tendency to be generous and kind, but the compulsion to call attention to one’s generosity and kindness. *This is “goodness” that calls attention to itself so that they will be admired for being selfless, praised for being humble, rewarded for being self-sacrificial, repaid for being generous, and so forth.
> 
> *Another more subtle element to pride is the inability to admit that we are hurting, the unwillingness to acknowledge our own suffering and neediness.* This part in each of us says “You’ve got problems, not me! I’m okay and I’m here to help you.” *But in fact, all of us, and particularly Twos, are terrified that we will break down and people will see how sad and lonely we are much of the time. Not only does pride prevent us from allowing people to see that we are in pain, it also prevents us from letting people see that we need anything, or that we are really trying to get something from others.* Pride can also be seen as a fundamental denial of the loss of contact with Essence—particularly the loss of contact with qualities of real love.


Really, I can't reconcile Lana with this fundamental aspect of 2, but I can with Taylor. Is Lana afraid of showing her pain, her loneliness, her "goodness"? Not at all, actually.



> His bonnie on the side, bonnie on the side,
> Makes me so sad, girl.
> His money on the side, money on the side,
> Makes me so sad, girl.
> ...


And here's 4s passion:



> Passion: Envy
> Envy results from the loss of contact with the virtue of Equanimity, and leads to the feeling that something is missing in us. We are not sure what it is, but other people seem to be happier, better off than us. Rather than investigate the source of our unease, in the throes of envy, we focus on comparing ourselves with others, believing that they possess qualities that we do not have, that others have had better childhoods, parents, or luck than us. Other people are somehow more alive and more whole. Other people seem to be having more productive lives and careers and wonderful marriages, but envy leads us to believe that these things are not possible for us. (“No one understands my suffering.”) *In short, envy sees in others qualities that we would like to have for our own self-completion, but perpetuates the sense of inner lack without dealing with the root problem.* *The problem is that Fours identify with their woundedness, with their sense of inner deficiency, and then make a lifestyle out of their suffering.* In fact, Fours are perceiving something true: the ego is false, based on suffering, and ultimately deficient. But rather than stay with this direct awareness in a way that would transform them, Fours get caught up in emotional reactions and beliefs about this deficiency, and construct their identity out of it. Thus, the ego self is sustained by identifying with the feeling of inner lack, and by making up stories about its origin. *Envy also alienates us from others and from life. It causes us to feel like outsiders who never belong anywhere, while imagining that others do and disliking them for it. *The result is a constant emotional storminess and reactivity which obscures our ability to perceive our true identity or value, or that of anything else.


*I was always an unusual girl. My mother told me I had a chameleon soul, no moral compass pointing due north, no fixed personality; just an inner indecisiveness that was as wide and as wavering as the ocean...

And if I said I didn't plan for it to turn out this way I'd be lying...

Because I was born to be the other woman.
Who belonged to no one, who belonged to everyone.*

I think she fits the 4 sx/sp subtype best, at least as she portrays herself in her music.



> This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface.
> 
> This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.
> 
> When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I just can't see her as a 4, even though I'm trying to see how it might work.
Like, the self focus/selfishness thing, it just makes me consider 4 for myself and I know I can't be a 4, I just know it's not my focus.
And I don't even find her self focused, in 4 sense at least, it's all other focused in a way that's not 4. I do get where you who think she's a 4 are coming from but I disagree.
I think she's just a different kind of 2w3 that you don't see as often, she's not as obvious as Taylor Swift or those song examples you posted @mistakenforstranger , but to me it still feels like it's similar on some level, she seems more similar to that than to those songs @Phoenix Virtue posted as 4 to 2. It's all "I'm crazy and needy" but it's charming, inviting, those Mariah lyrics would make me escape, Lana's would make me need her even though she shows herself as the needy one. I guess that's the sp.


Also, I don't think _Electra Heart_ is a 3w4, more 2w3/3w2, but Marina is a sp 3w4 (or I'd say possibly a 6 but no one agrees  ), so it all looks a bit strange and different than actual Electra Heart would look, I don't like Marina's portrayal of Electra. 
But agree @Niha they have some similarities, I can relate to the mix of both)


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Even if Lana is a 4 she's definitely not a sexual 4


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

--


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

All 4s in their own way...



Phoenix Virtue said:


> Like, comparison


4w3 so/sp, playing the part of a 3; Also, an xNFJ

"Electra Heart is the antithesis of everything that I stand for. And the point of introducing her and building a whole concept around her is that she stands for the corrupt side of American ideology, and basically that’s the corruption of yourself. My worst fear – that’s anyone’s worst fear – is losing myself and becoming a vacuous person. And that happens a lot when you’re very ambitious."



Phoenix Virtue said:


>


4w3 sx/sp



Phoenix Virtue said:


>


4w3 so/sx (So-instinct, and why the suffering image is more on the surface)


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Amaranthine said:


> Also, I don't think _Electra Heart_ is a 3w4, more 2w3/3w2, but Marina is a sp 3w4 (or I'd say possibly a 6 but no one agrees  ), so it all looks a bit strange and different than actual Electra Heart would look, I don't like Marina's portrayal of Electra.
> But agree @Niha they have some similarities, I can relate to the mix of both)


I said I can see her as 6 :sad: I'm just undecided

The bit on Primadonna Girl where she does "I know I have a big ego;* I really don't know why it's such a big deal though*" sounds _so_ incredibly 6))

But Electra Heart seems 3w4>3w2 and definitely >2w3 to me; _Teen Idle_ for instance...



Niha said:


> I was actually thinking ways in which Lana might personify Electra Heart; will post more later
> 
> Yes I do think Marina might be 3w4, but she mentions in an interview that songs help her say things _she wouldn't in real life.
> _So I see her as exploring her inner 4 lol in Electra Heart, and the overall look is very 3 and 4; I think we can all agree that marina isn't a 2.


I don't see Electra Heart as all _that_ 4 though; just sorta wingy 4)

I mean...way less emotive, and funny 3ish emotions, I mean muted or rather...existentialist?...with the twist of 4 that kinda...fails to come through all the way)

idk)


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Disagree but you knew that)



mistakenforstranger said:


> My worst fear – that’s anyone’s worst fear – is losing myself and becoming a vacuous person.


Do 4s really fear this though? (Genuine question). I know like..I don't, I know I won'[t lose myself, I am myself...

Seems like something 3s would fear because the self is somewhat elusive to 3s, but for 4s it's always there, how can they fear losing it?


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Disagree but you knew that)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Exactly_ what I was thinking when I read that, I don't think that's a 4 fear at all (I certainly can't relate to it). I feel like the attachment triad has more fears related to 'losing' themselves in general, maybe because they so strongly feel the influence of others (even if they rebel against/reject this influence). Like for example I hear 6 artists often talking about how much they AREN'T a sell-out, because they are so attuned to how much they could or how much others do. And I think 4s can't detach themselves from their work, or from anything they do, that's just impossible. So talking about how authentic they are isn't necessary.. it's just a _given_.

I can relate to fearing like I'm not truly acting like myself, but.. actually becoming an empty person and not 'me' at all just feels bizarre.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@*Philathea* @*Phoenix Virtue 
*@Amaranthine

I can't see Lana as a 4 at all, and overall I agree with all your arguments. I also feel like I have a very strong sense of self; it's the one thing I could NEVER lose.

That said when I was traumatized and lost everything, including my capacity to feel, my voice, my sense of purpose, my humanity and dignity.. I kept writing in my diary "loss of sense of self." But I also feel, in many ways, like once I was stripped of purpose, humanity and dignity.. my "self" was at its absolute STRONGEST because it was unobstructed by excess bullshit that comes with being human. I was nothing more than an animal, stripped of anything that made me human... at best my art was a symbol of my losses and my lost humanity. That is why I call myself Animal here.. because in a way, the loss of "sense of self" stripped me down to nothing but SELF which is more real than my purpose, my passion, my feelings.... I found my animalism, my carnal raw SELF.

A bit of an abstract thought but just wanted to comment.  I don't see this kind of complex around self in Lana... or a stronghold on self. I see her blatantly wanting what others have, like in the quote @*Niha* shared which she said isn't 4ish (I agree, it isn't). 4s won't want to take on someone else's life; even when traumatized, I personally just wanted to relearn how to embody MY OWN.

Here are some 4s singing about love.

Sx 4w3






Sx 4w5






Social 4w5







Sp 4w5







The hate! The hate! Self-hate, hate of the other, screaming about one's flaws? It's always there. Love/hate/love. _Where is the hate in Lana????
_
"When I'm no longer young and beautiful.."
said no 4 ever. 4s feel ugly and flawed inherently.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Animal said:


> "When I'm no longer young and beautiful.."
> said no 4 ever. 4s feel ugly and flawed inherently.


I think the most telling part is her next lines are "_I *know* you will, I *know* you will.._"

I can relate to feeling that over time a guy will become disillusioned with me.. and losing my beauty is one of those things I think about (though I hardly feel pretty at all). But.. "I know you will"???? No way. Never. More like I know you won't.. I know you wont.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

--


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Philathea said:


> I think the most telling part is her next lines are "_I *know* you will, I *know* you will.._"
> 
> I can relate to feeling that over time a guy will become disillusioned with me.. and losing my beauty is one of those things I think about (though I hardly feel pretty at all). But.. "I know you will"???? No way. Never. More like I know you won't.. I know you wont.


Yeah.. I know exactly what you mean. @Sun Daeva is 10 years younger than me and he's heard this speech more times than either of us can count. "You may think I'm pretty now {you're crazy, but I believe you actually think that} ... but what about when I'm 50 and youre 40, and all these beautiful 30 year old women are after you??! " I don't know how or why he takes the time to reassure me ad nauseum, but it means the world to me.


"I know you will" is straight up positive outlook.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

Animal said:


> @*Philathea* @*Phoenix Virtue
> *@Amaranthine
> 
> I can't see Lana as a 4 at all, and overall I agree with all your arguments. I also feel like I have a very strong sense of self; it's the one thing I could NEVER lose.
> ...


Why does a 4 have to show hate? I don't know where exactly you got that idea from? Four's want to be their authentic selves and show that image. What if that image doesn't include displays of hate? Why not just a dignified sadness in it's place to fit a style or individual type 4 person? She is an ISFP btw so I think that might have something to do why you don't see her as a 4 here? 

Singing/caring about being young and beautiful is not a sign that someone isn't a 4. If that's the case then I am not a 4 (I mean I might not be but I don't think it would be for that reason). And I don't feel ugly inherently. Flawed, yes. Plus Lana consistently shows that she thinks she is inherently flawed in a 4 way. Singing about being young and beautiful in the way that she does does show anything to the contrary. Also the whole song is poetic, philosophical and sad anyway. But it's more about recognising that she is young and beautiful but that it shouldn't really matter 'when I've got noting left but my aching heart' but it's hopeful yet very melancholic at the same time almost like she is singing sadly about what would be ideal. The whole thing seems done in a pretty 4 way to me. I really don't get your point here.

And 4's are often inspired by others lives. The whole envy thing? I think 4's can be inspired to relate to certain people and use them as inspiration in order to figure out to be their authentic selves. The 4 would be more likely to see certain aspects of themselves in others and use those people as their inspirations to build their own identity/authentic self plus idealising someone else's life in the same way to figure out how they want their own life to be. And yeah isn't what is mean by the envy thing and obsessed with finding one's own identity/authentic self.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

--


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Niha said:


> @*Animal*
> I think showing the love/hate thing is specifically sx 4.
> 
> I am pretty certain that would be influenced by instincts. I know I feel that way, but I am not always directly in touch with it. I don't think an sp-first would express themselves that way either; but that doesn't mean they don't feel it.
> ...


Alanis Morisette is an Sp/So 4 by my estimation and that anger is pretty obvious in her lyrics. Same with Marilyn Manson, who is So/Sp


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

--


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

pippylongstocking said:


> Why does a 4 have to show hate? I don't know where exactly you got that idea from? Four's want to be their authentic selves and show that image. What if that image doesn't include displays of hate? Why not just a dignified sadness in it's place to fit a style or individual type 4 person? She is an ISFP btw so I think that might have something to do why you don't see her as a 4 here?
> 
> Singing/caring about being young and beautiful is not a sign that someone isn't a 4. If that's the case then I am not a 4 (I mean I might not be but I don't think it would be for that reason). And I don't feel ugly inherently. Flawed, yes. Plus Lana consistently shows that she thinks she is inherently flawed in a 4 way. Singing about being young and beautiful in the way that she does does show anything to the contrary. Also the whole song is poetic, philosophical and sad anyway. But it's more about recognising that she is young and beautiful but that it shouldn't really matter 'when I've got noting left but my aching heart' but it's hopeful yet very melancholic at the same time almost like she is singing sadly about what would be ideal. The whole thing seems done in a pretty 4 way to me. I really don't get your point here.
> 
> And 4's are often inspired by others lives. The whole envy thing? I think 4's can be inspired to relate to certain people and use them as inspiration in order to figure out to be their authentic selves. The 4 would be more likely to see certain aspects of themselves in others and use those people as their inspirations to build their own identity/authentic self plus idealising someone else's life in the same way to figure out how they want their own life to be. And yeah isn't what is mean by the envy thing and obsessed with finding one's own identity/authentic self.


4s identify with their flawed self-image. That is a huge component of what makes a 4 a 4.

4s may have a spectrum of inferiority/superiority, and they may be arrogant and elitist, but they will also be aware of their flawed self-image, and that's what will be at the forefront.

Sure, maybe the "beautiful" thing was a bit nitpicky. But PRIDE in her beauty and attractiveness and power is something that runs through all of her songs as a theme. 

As a 4 I find this much more relatable:








Most people who know me irl would call me sweet. I may be a bit more of a porcupine on forum than I seem in real life. I'm not saying I walk around angry and hateful. Neither did Prince, MJ, Manson, Alanis, etc. In interviews all of them laugh, smile, exhibit joy, can talk about their good qualities. So can I.

But when it comes to lyrics and self-expression, I'm going to be expressing my flawed self image. So would any of them. That's part of their self-image, the image they portray. It's a flawed view of reality, like every type - and part of a 4's flawed view of reality is a distorted view that their perceived "flawed self" is the "real self" and there's a gap between that and the ideal self. 4s feel their flawed self is AUTHENTIC and they want to be SEEN as authentic so they will put those flaws out for the world, even if they also like many things about themselves. So if there's no flawed self-image at the forefront and no gap between that and the ideal self that they can never be, then there's no _envy_. Envy for 4s is about_ longing_ to embody the ideal self. It's not about wanting this trait or that trait that someone else has. It's about wanting to _be themselves_. And be seen for who they are.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@pippylongstocking

4s also have a line to 1. Which is "wrath." Their _soul-child_ is 1. Wrath. Anger.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

This woman oozes *Pride*.

"I wanna be that fantasy that you got on your mind."
_



Chin up darling_ ~pride~




































She makes sultry her game.

***
***

Her colors too... *Soft blue*, *soft pink*, *soft yellow*. Soft, light, positive, summer,... 2, 2, 2, 2,... 269.

Oh, and in case we forgot: *Pride

*


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

--


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Niha said:


> [/COLOR]I am seeing an attempt to cover up the, proximally, shame invoked because mental illness is stigmatized. I see an attempt to beautify the terrifyingly ugly, flawed part of her self.




I feel that you are projecting things onto Lana - which btw is not a judgement, art is there for people to relate to it in their own way - everyone does it. You have the right to interpret music as you see fit, however it is most meaningful to you.

But when it comes to her type...

I don't see signs of mental illness outside of 'I'm tired of feeling like I'm fucking crazy' which does not necessarily imply mental illness, everyone feels 'crazy' in some way or another at some point. Besides, mental illness isn't type-specific, coping mechanisms aren't type-specific...(some are, but the general concept of them)

Besides, Two _is_ about spinning shame, it's part of the shame triad and part of the positive outlook triad, perfect combination for trying to turn shame into something better (or distracting oneself)



> Will you still love me when I am no longer young and beautiful <- will you still love me _when the essence of me_ is the only thing remaining. Will you see me for me and love me nonetheless?


I think this is essentially a human concern. 

For the record, I always thought it was funny that she said 'when i'm not longer young and beautiful', sounds so presumptuous)) I mean, she is young and beautiful so it's quite reasonable, but, you know...

But I think 2 is the one most likely to be constantly asking, "Do you love me? Will you love me if X happens? How much do you love me? Are you going to stop loving me?" Of course every type, and heart types especially probably, care, but it's the obsession of 2, so it makes sense it comes through a lot in the music.



> Ultimately, shame is a part of her being. She isn't just ashamed because she has certain characteristics; she is ashamed in an existential way.




As with all image types. Just like head type fear is existential fear, gut type anger is existential anger.


> The bolded is specially true for someone who feels like they do not even exist, because their image is crumbling - here "love" is a validation of her existence.


This is true of Two.



> But by "validation" and "love" I mean it in a 4 sense lol, not 2.


...ok...



> Since all approach that concept very subjectively.
> This is a PM I sent to a friend in regards to Lana:
> 
> I see what scared me away last time (referring to the thread I started for Lana). Imo, Lana is talking about mental illness...look at how the attachment/anxiety issues cut through her. She is so ashamed she can unconsciously suppresses expression of emotions to a painful extent. She has stage fright. She has serious attachment issues. The "daddy's girl" persona they keep talking about - have they considered that it might be unconscious survival mechanism for her?


Thanks for sharing this)
But...what does it have to do with Four? Why would not Two not have being 'daddy's girl' (gosh that phrase sounds creepy considering how she usually uses that word) as unconscious survival mechanism? Isn't that more in the Two alley than Four...cleaving to someone else as an existential crutch? I get that it's Four too (mostly because of line to Two) but what does this mean? How do you see Two? Just images slapped together for the lolz?



> And more importantly mental illness is stigmatized, heavily <-- And there you have your source of shame.


ok...


> Of course I was perplexed when they compared this to what Taylor talks about because they were far from the same thing. And I felt scared because by extension it reminded me of my own voice not being heard when I repeatedly told people it really does hurt that much.Invalidation...is the worst fear I have ever felt except for fear of death.


I'm sorry about that but...lol is comparing Lana del Rey to Taylor Swift really so invalidating?)) I mean, Taylor Swift probably has her shit together more than...most people really at this point, dating world's most eligible bachelor)) So it is different) They do both seem to have a pattern of clinging to people in somewhat self-destructive ways (I think it is heightened for Lana because she is sp-first, different MBTI, different life experiences, different image)...Taylor lives her life like a professional and Lana like an amateur, but that doesn't mean they're different core types))



> Also, I don't want to diagnose anyone but I see very BPD like things apparent in her personality, and that to me points more to 4 than 2 (not that it has to, but I feel like 4 makes more sense).


I think Naranjo associated 2s with Histrionic Personality Disorder:



> HPD lies in the dramatic cluster of personality disorders.[3] People with HPD have a high need for attention, make loud and inappropriate appearances, exaggerate their behaviors and emotions, and crave stimulation.[3] They may exhibit sexually provocative behavior, express strong emotions with an impressionistic style, and can be easily influenced by others. Associated features include egocentrism, self-indulgence, continuous longing for appreciation, and persistent manipulative behavior to achieve their own needs.


Which seems closer to Lana's general 'thing', though not completely of course, Off to the Races probably being the best example, sounding almost manic


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

Animal said:


> 4s identify with their flawed self-image. That is a huge component of what makes a 4 a 4.
> 
> 4s may have a spectrum of inferiority/superiority, and they may be arrogant and elitist, but they will also be aware of their flawed self-image, and that's what will be at the forefront.


I think Lana does show this.



> Sure, maybe the "beautiful" thing was a bit nitpicky. But PRIDE in her beauty and attractiveness and power is something that runs through all of her songs as a theme.


I'd say it's more awareness. It definitely doesn't come across as pride in a 2 way. I don't see it as pride per se at all actually. Talking about and exploring those themes does not equal pride. It's more about awareness and also using that to add to her themes of identity and poetic sadness/beauty in life.



> As a 4 I find this much more relatable:


You may find that personally relatable but I think many fours wouldn't and would find Lana's music more relatable. Maybe it has something to do with instincts or maybe it's more to with personal preference which is not necessarily directly related to type or perhaps it's more just the different manifestations of a type within different people. I don't relate to that Marilyn Manson song but that wouldn't make me think that he's not a 4...



> Most people who know me irl would call me sweet. I may be a bit more of a porcupine on forum than I seem in real life. I'm not saying I walk around angry and hateful. Neither did Prince, MJ, Manson, Alanis, etc. In interviews all of them laugh, smile, exhibit joy, can talk about their good qualities. So can I.
> 
> But when it comes to lyrics and self-expression, I'm going to be expressing my flawed self image. So would any of them. That's part of their self-image, the image they portray. It's a flawed view of reality, like every type - and part of a 4's flawed view of reality is a distorted view that their perceived "flawed self" is the "real self" and there's a gap between that and the ideal self. 4s feel their flawed self is AUTHENTIC and they want to be SEEN as authentic so they will put those flaws out for the world, even if they also like many things about themselves. So if there's no flawed self-image at the forefront and no gap between that and the ideal self that they can never be, then there's no _envy_. Envy for 4s is about_ longing_ to embody the ideal self. It's not about wanting this trait or that trait that someone else has. It's about wanting to _be themselves_. And be seen for who they are.


I know what you mean about the flawed self and as I've said in previous posts I think Lana does show her flawed self in her music. That is her main theme. Maybe you don't see it as flawed enough or flawed in the same way as the artists you relate to more? Also, fours want to be and show their _authentic_ which would usually or often consist of a mix of showing their flaws and their ideal self (which is still themselves) anyway. It's not all about being flawed, certainly. I you seem to be ignoring the 4's desire to express who they are and that it includes their ideal self as that is part of who they too. Your definition of how you think a 4 is seems to be too narrow. It may be right for you personally but I think you be having too narrow conception of 4's in general... But I agree that is one aspect which a 4 is more likely to show than another image type and that is one of the main reasons I think Lana is a 4 as she does show this. I know that fours want to be themselves. They want to be the ideal version of themselves as well. Anyway my point was that they often see themselves in other people so they often that as inspiration to be their true selves.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Niha said:


> Are you sure all 4s are going to be that overtly angry? Wouldn't instincts play a role, the tritype?


No, to be fair I do think that varies from 4 to 4. Just the element of line-to-1 anger should be there_ somewhere_.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

Sun Daeva said:


> This woman oozes *Pride*.
> 
> "I wanna be that fantasy that you got on your mind."
> _
> ...



So if someone likes pastel colours and sometimes likes to pose with their chin up it means that they ooze pride and are not a 4? What on earth. Or were you saying something else. Also, first you implied that having her chin up means she oozes pride. Then you start talking about the colours she wears and mention pride again? or where you talking about you think the last photo shows pride. Ok. How is that a typing analysis? 

Yes, she is quite sultry. Like i'd expect a lot of 4's to be.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

pippylongstocking said:


> I'd say it's more awareness. It definitely doesn't come across as pride in a 2 way. I don't see it as pride per se at all actually. Talking about and exploring those themes does not equal pride. It's more about awareness and also using that to add to her themes of identity and poetic sadness/beauty in life.


Well all types will experience loneliness, sadness, hurt and pain.. don't you think? So anyone who writes songs about their feelings is a 4? That is what I'm getting from this but you can let me know if it's off.

2s are very in touch with feelings about being lonely, being unloved, etc. They are still heart types  and actually more known to express their feelings aloud than 4s. 4s withdraw; 2s express. Day to day, anyway. But everyone expresses feelings in their art, regardless of type. That's what art is about..sharing the troubles of the soul. And 4s are not the only people who experience pain, loneliness , darkness, etc.




> You may find that personally relatable but I think many fours wouldn't and would find Lana's music more relatable. Maybe it has something to do with instincts or maybe it's more to with personal preference which is not necessarily directly related to type or perhaps it's more just the different manifestations of a type within different people. I don't relate to that Marilyn Manson song but that wouldn't make me think that he's not a 4...


That's not how i type people. There are plenty of people - even a few on this forum that I don't relate to at all and I would still type them at 4. I relate to Trent Reznor and type him at 5. And so forth.

It's not about that. It's about whether or not those people exhibit themes that are central to 4. I'm not quite THAT self-absorbed to type someone just because I do or don't relate to very human themes they explore in their songs.  But I don't blame you for bringing that up - it's a valid point because a lot of people actually do type that way. I don't , though.  So I agree with you completely on principle here, that relating to someone doesn't make them type X.




> Anyway my point was that they often see themselves in other people so they often that as inspiration to be their true selves.


I have been inspired by people before. I've heard Marilyn Manson talk about how he's inspired by Bowie or others. That is definitely valid. But. It's more that 4s admire this person for who they are. 4s are pretty specific about what they consider part of "themselves." There is, however, the mechanism of introjection, in which a 4 takes on some of the other person's identity, kind of mirrors them out of envy... _if I can't have your love, I can be you so that I have you inside me, and I don't need you..._

Still don't see this in Lana though.


----------



## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

pippylongstocking said:


> So if someone likes pastel colours and sometimes likes to pose with their chin up it means that they ooze pride and are not a 4? What on earth. Or were you saying something else. Also, first you implied that having her chin up means she oozes pride. Then you start talking about the colours she wears and mention pride again? or where you talking about you think the last photo shows pride. Ok. How is that a typing analysis?


Show me I'm wrong. Tell me about the 4 with that taste, with that pride. Do you know of any to compare Lana with?



> Yes, she is quite sultry. Like i'd expect a lot of 4's to be.


Read my post again. I said she makes it her game. Power triad. Quite the difference there.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Niha said:


> I disagree. I may not be afraid of losing myself _forever_. But I feel the push-pull of 469 between wanting to be something to get consensus and security vs. wanting to be yourself. It's so strong it often manifests in a single day. At first I m anxious so I go along with what might make the other person like me, then within hours or a day at most, I resent what I felt I did in desperation and rebel against the idea that I need to be a certain way.


Hm. I am a 469 myself, as well as a Social-first, but I don't relate to this much. I do want people to like me and I sometimes even sacrifice comfort to do so, but I never really do anything I wouldn't normally do.. nothing that makes me feel less like 'myself'.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

Sun Daeva said:


> Show me I'm wrong. Tell me about the 4 with that taste, with that pride. Do you know of any to compare Lana with?


So you are seriously suggesting that someone who wears pastel colours is not a four for that reason? And you want me to find you examples of other fours who wear pastel colours or pose with their chin up to prove you wrong? Seriously? I'm sure you could do that yourself. She is a 4w3 also but that's not even relevant here.



> Read my post again. I said she makes it her game. Power triad. Quite the difference there.


I know you did. She is sultry. That is how she is naturally. She is also projecting an image the whole time. But in a 4 way. The image is her.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

2- The embracing power-seeker fits so well, I do think she has strong 6 in her tritype too.

Definitely not a 4. I think maybe you are referring to the disintegration of a 4 but nope, that is not the case either.

Of course, I am talking about her crafted image, I don't know what lies underneath since the whole broken Hollywood doll image is quite manufactured (though she pulls it so well).


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Philathea said:


> Hm. I am a 469 myself, as well as a Social-first, but I don't relate to this much. I do want people to like me and I sometimes even sacrifice comfort to do so, but I never really do anything I wouldn't normally do.. nothing that makes me feel less like 'myself'.


Exactly. The one thing 4s excel at is "being themselves." (At least based on their own definition of self.) What they suck at.. is whatever else they're apparently "supposed to be doing, feeling, saying" etc. if it doesn't line up with who they feel they are.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

--


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

pippylongstocking said:


> I don't take it personally. Although, I don't see where that assumption is coming from exactly? You could say that about anyone if you didn't agree with their typing. Is it because I am also a type 4 that you think I see Lana as one?
> 
> Animal used a point about how she relates more to a Marilyn Manson song to prove that Lana is not a four. That was the sole basis of that point. I responded saying so and she responded saying she doesn't in fact type that way. So fair enough we have to take her word for it. I'm being sarcastic by the way I believe her if she says that.
> 
> I mentioned myself as an example but it really could have been anyone as I just wanted to use an example to prove that not all all 4's act a certain way etc. But I didn't actually compare myself to Lana or talk about relating to Lana anyway.


I was being generic about the question "Why do people insist on finding hidden themes that are obscure and beneath 20 layers of other stuff.. and ignoring the blatant, obvious themes that are right in front of their eyes?"

It is usually either by relating to the person and the kinship or that they are thinking of many ways a person could act. And yes they could but while typing it is important to focus on their signature traits rather than getting lost in all details and more importantly it is important to see the motivation. Sure, everyone acts like one type or the other at some point but I am interested in what is signature of them? What is differentiating them. Then the enneagram actually becomes so very obvious. And I do see a lot of people here trying to type themselves and they go like "well I do this and I do that too, I do act like a 4 and I do sometimes act 8 ish too or I am so much like this singer who is typed 4 etc etc" Their typing is often difficult to others because the information they present is biased, they can not see what is so fundamentally different to each type or they have kinship or role models they relate to. Honestly, it would be easier to me if they just talked about a random bunch of stuff and themselves, their childhood, their fears etc.

Anyways, I was being generic, we all use examples of how we relate to someone or some type as well but it is important to not get lost in details and see the whole picture. I wasn't really targeting you, I have only read the parts after I have joined tbh


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Distortions

Example of how the loss of "holy origin" is apparent in Marilyn Manson:






Again it's abstract and obscure and I am obviously "reading into this," so take it with a grain of salt haha. But, he's singing about, "We're the nobodies, wanna be somebody.." like he wants to get back to a place where he belongs... but the holy origin / connectivity is very much present from the "social" perspective, because he says "we" are the nobodies. He has found a society of nobodies - LIKE HIMSELF - people who match his origin. But he wants to be part of something greater, still.

I realize again that this is abstract but silly things like that , underlying thematic points, do strike me at times, even if I can't prove it in some fool-proof way.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

nichya said:


> viva la Te preference?


Yes my Te must be so annoying. My Te is a porcupine. :frustrating:


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

nichya said:


> I was being generic about the question "Why do people insist on finding hidden themes that are obscure and beneath 20 layers of other stuff.. and ignoring the blatant, obvious themes that are right in front of their eyes?"
> 
> It is usually either by relating to the person and the kinship or that they are thinking of many ways a person could act. And yes they could but while typing it is important to focus on their signature traits rather than getting lost in all details and more importantly it is important to see the motivation. Sure, everyone acts like one type or the other at some point but I am interested in what is signature of them? What is differentiating them. Then the enneagram actually becomes so very obvious. And I do see a lot of people here trying to type themselves and they go like "well I do this and I do that too, I do act like a 4 and I do sometimes act 8 ish too or I am so much like this singer who is typed 4 etc etc" Their typing is often difficult to others because the information they present is biased, they can not see what is so fundamentally different to each type or they have kinship or role models they relate to. Honestly, it would be easier to me if they just talked about a random bunch of stuff and themselves, their childhood, their fears etc.
> 
> Anyways, I was being generic, we all use examples of how we relate to someone or some type as well but it is important to not get lost in details and see the whole picture. I wasn't really targeting you, I have only read the parts after I have joined tbh


Oh ok. Well, I seemed to be in part about me starting from what you were responding to. And then I thought you mentioning me saying don't take it personal was saying that you were talking about others as well or something. But ok I get that you meant it more generally. Anyway, as I've said I agree that we need to look for what is the signature them when typing someone. We just disagree on what that is with Lana. 

And yes I know that people can relate themselves or not relate themselves to a character/person when typing and that can cloud their judgement. That is one of the many reasons someone might mistype somebody. "Why do people insist on finding hidden themes that are obscure and beneath 20 layers of other stuff.. and ignoring the blatant, obvious themes that are right in front of their eyes?" There's no denying that typing someone can be complex. But in this thread there is a disagreement on whether the obvious themes that are right in front of someones eyes are of one type or another. I think the obvious themes of the whole picture are type 4 but others disagree. But okay I believe you it wasn't personal obviously and you were suggesting a general reason why someone might mistype someone. There's no reason it would be personal anyway as I said I just thought what you were replying had something to do with me in part but anyway.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Animal said:


> A bit of an abstract thought but just wanted to comment.  I don't see this kind of complex around self in Lana... or a stronghold on self. I see her blatantly wanting what others have, like in the quote @*Niha* shared which she said isn't 4ish (I agree, it isn't). 4s won't want to take on someone else's life; even when traumatized, I personally just wanted to relearn how to embody MY OWN.


Blatantly wanting what others have...isn't that the definition of envy?

Webster's:


> *envy*
> 
> noun en·vy \ˈen-vē\
> *Simple Definition of envy*
> ...





Animal said:


> 4s won't want to take on someone else's life; even when traumatized, I personally just wanted to relearn how to embody MY OWN.


Naranjo says:

*"We may envision type IV psychology precisely from the point of view of an impoverishment of being or selfhood that envy seeks to “fill up” and which is, in turn, perpetuated through self-denigration, though the search for being through love and through the emulation of others. (“I am like Einstein, therefore I exist”).* *The type IV psyche functions as if it had concluded early in life “I am loved therefore I am not worthless” and now pursues worthiness through the love that was once missing (love me so I know I am all right)*, *and through a process of self-refining distortion—through the pursuit of something different and presumably better and nobler than what he or she is."*




Animal said:


> "When I'm no longer young and beautiful.."
> said no 4 ever. 4s feel ugly and flawed inherently.





Philathea said:


> I think the most telling part is her next lines are "_I *know* you will, I *know* you will.._"
> 
> I can relate to feeling that over time a guy will become disillusioned with me.. and losing my beauty is one of those things I think about (though I hardly feel pretty at all). But.. "I know you will"???? No way. Never. More like I know you won't.. I know you wont.


It must be said that this song was written for The Great Gatsby movie, so you have to take that into account too, and how appropriate its message is to the ongoing scene and the story being told.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> It must be said that this song was written for The Great Gatsby movie, so you have to take that into account too, and how appropriate its message is to the ongoing scene and the story being told.


Good point haha, I had forgotten to look at the intents behind the songs.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Sun Daeva said:


> This woman oozes *Pride*.
> 
> "I wanna be that fantasy that you got on your mind."
> _
> ...



Morrissey...SO MUCH PRIDE! And look at the way he holds his chin. Must be a 2! :shocked:






























SO SEDUCTIVE!












Sun Daeva said:


> She makes sultry her game.
> 
> ***
> ***
> ...


Sexual Fours: Infatuation (Ichazo's "Competition") 

Sexual Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in their intimate relationships. They are perhaps the most emotionally intense type of the Enneagram, which is both their gift and their potential downfall. They possess both a capacity and a desire for profound intimacy, and they derive tremendous insight into human nature through the ups and downs of their romantic lives. *They have a sultry, sullen quality that can be attractive and mysterious, or at times, off-putting to others.* Sexual Fours pour their energy and attention into the object of their affection, often becoming infatuated or even obsessed, sometimes after only one meeting. Sexual chemistry triggers their powerful imaginations, leading them to create enormous expectations of potential partners. Sexual Fours tend to be drawn to people who possess qualities and talents that they believe they lack. They want to complete themselves by associating or merging with the valued other. But this almost never works, so they may also end up envying and resenting their romantic partner for unintentionally reminding them of what they feel they are missing. In any case, Sexual Fours go through tremendous shifts of feeling about their loved ones—everything from idolization to unbridled hatred. Generally speaking, this type is aware of these feelings, including the dark ones, and finds ways to express them, sometimes in self-destructive ways.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Blatantly wanting what others have...isn't that the definition of envy?
> 
> Webster's:
> 
> ...


Naranjo's definition is the exact same one I used in my post here, on page 6:



Animal said:


> I have been inspired by people before. I've heard Marilyn Manson talk about how he's inspired by Bowie or others. That is definitely valid. But. It's more that 4s admire this person for who they are. 4s are pretty specific about what they consider part of "themselves." There is, however, the mechanism of introjection, in which a 4 takes on some of the other person's identity, kind of mirrors them out of envy... _if I can't have your love, I can be you so that I have you inside me, and I don't need you..._
> 
> Still don't see this in Lana though.


This is 4 envy. Introjection.

It's not the blatant envy of wanting what others have. Introjection has a different undertone, but my explanation matches Naranjo's.



> It must be said that this song was written for The Great Gatsby movie, so you have to take that into account too, and how appropriate its message is to the ongoing scene and the story being told.


Fair enough, but how is that theme and positive-outlook "I know you love me" sentiment different from her other songs?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Morrissey...SO MUCH PRIDE! And look at the way he holds his chin. Must be a 2! :shocked:
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


Not seeing the pride here. He is making ridiculous ugly faces and funny faces and sad expressions. How could you possibly compare these photos to the seductiveness of Lana? I hope you were joking.



> Sexual Fours: Infatuation (Ichazo's "Competition")
> 
> Sexual Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in their intimate relationships. They are perhaps the most emotionally intense type of the Enneagram, which is both their gift and their potential downfall. They possess both a capacity and a desire for profound intimacy, and they derive tremendous insight into human nature through the ups and downs of their romantic lives. They have a sultry, sullen quality that can be attractive and mysterious, or at times, off-putting to others. Sexual Fours pour their energy and attention into the object of their affection, often becoming infatuated or even obsessed, sometimes after only one meeting. *Sexual chemistry triggers their powerful imaginations, leading them to create enormous expectations of potential partners. Sexual Fours tend to be drawn to people who possess qualities and talents that they believe they lack. They want to complete themselves by associating or merging with the valued other. But this almost never works, so they may also end up envying and resenting their romantic partner for unintentionally reminding them of what they feel they are missing. In any case, Sexual Fours go through tremendous shifts of feeling about their loved ones—everything from idolization to unbridled hatred. Generally speaking, this type is aware of these feelings, including the dark ones, and finds ways to express them, sometimes in self-destructive ways.*


You conveniently forgot to put in bold the part of Sx 4 that is completely missing from her songs.


And this is just hilarious in this context of what the "Lana is NOT A 4" people were arguing. Some posters wrote "Where's the hate in Lana?" while others wrote "Why does it HAVE to be there for her to be a 4?" 

There you have it. This is actually very convenient for me because you posted a definition of Sx4 in order to underline two words, and completely forgot that the meat of the definition is _exactly in line with what I've been saying_ the whole time about why Lana is not a 4, and why the hate and envy (wanting to fuck him, love him, destroy him, BE him) is missing from her songs. Yet that was not important to some people, and they had other definitions of how 4 should be... so it is very convenient for me that you posted this. Thank you.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Morrissey...SO MUCH PRIDE! And look at the way he holds his chin. Must be a 2! :shocked:
> 
> * *
> 
> ...


Thanks for proving my point.

You fail to see what _genuine pride_ looks like (Lana), versus the _elitism and mockery_ of Morrissey that is showing here. Lana does not show the *E4 elitism*, Morrissey does not show the *E2 pride*.

Lana del Rey: Pride
Morrissey: Elitism



Ridicule doesn't flatter you, nor does it make you look smarter, nor does it show any willingness for open debate.



> Sexual Fours: Infatuation (Ichazo's "Competition")
> 
> Sexual Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in their intimate relationships. They are perhaps the most emotionally intense type of the Enneagram, which is both their gift and their potential downfall. They possess both a capacity and a desire for profound intimacy, and they derive tremendous insight into human nature through the ups and downs of their romantic lives. *They have a sultry, sullen quality that can be attractive and mysterious, or at times, off-putting to others.* Sexual Fours pour their energy and attention into the object of their affection, often becoming infatuated or even obsessed, sometimes after only one meeting. Sexual chemistry triggers their powerful imaginations, leading them to create enormous expectations of potential partners. Sexual Fours tend to be drawn to people who possess qualities and talents that they believe they lack. They want to complete themselves by associating or merging with the valued other. But this almost never works, so they may also end up envying and resenting their romantic partner for unintentionally reminding them of what they feel they are missing. In any case, Sexual Fours go through tremendous shifts of feeling about their loved ones—everything from idolization to unbridled hatred. Generally speaking, this type is aware of these feelings, including the dark ones, and finds ways to express them, sometimes in self-destructive ways.


Are you being dense on purpose or what? How many times do I have to repeat that she *uses it as a play* in her style? It's *central *to her theme.
Are you seriously going to tell me you just _happened_ to have missed that in my repeated emphasis on that point?

Show me where I said that 4's can't be sultry. Go on, I'll wait.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I feel that you are projecting things onto Lana - which btw is not a judgement, art is there for people to relate to it in their own way - everyone does it. You have the right to interpret music as you see fit, however it is most meaningful to you.


Yes, but it is assumed it's asked how _I _saw her as a 4, and I answered that. 



> But when it comes to her type...
> 
> I don't see signs of mental illness outside of 'I'm tired of feeling like I'm fucking crazy' which does not necessarily imply mental illness, everyone feels 'crazy' in some way or another at some point. Besides, mental illness isn't type-specific, coping mechanisms aren't type-specific...(some are, but the general concept of them)
> 
> Besides, Two _is_ about spinning shame, it's part of the shame triad and part of the positive outlook triad, perfect combination for trying to turn shame into something better (or distracting oneself)


She is _extremely _unhealthy, and if you do not see that, you do not see her for her, imo. 
And I have had situations before where people don't seem to see the other person as what I see them - not saying I am necessarily correct here because I don't know how much of the image isn't coming from her - but I was right in those cases. I guess it's because I am Fi-dom, and can easily see beneath the surface of _certain people._

I used those lyrics because I couldn't find a better way to communicate that. I see that throughout her songs. I think even her May Jailer songs...she has a very big insecurity surrounding how she feels towards relationships/love. And honestly, calling it "insecurity" is undermining it. As I have pointed out before, _it spills through_ in her persona. 





> I think this is essentially a human concern.


Just wanted to point this out for some of the points you have made: All of this is in _context _to my bigger post. So yes, you can call it human, but words fail me at this point, and you _know _we approach these concepts subjectively.



> For the record, I always thought it was funny that she said 'when i'm not longer young and beautiful', sounds so presumptuous)) I mean, she is young and beautiful so it's quite reasonable, but, you know...
> 
> But I think 2 is the one most likely to be constantly asking, "Do you love me? Will you love me if X happens? How much do you love me? Are you going to stop loving me?" Of course every type, and heart types especially probably, care, but it's the obsession of 2, so it makes sense it comes through a lot in the music.


Fair enough. I have never made music, so I don't know exactly how much about that I would talk about. Although if I have a crush, I am obsessed with that concept all the time. 




> As with all image types. Just like head type fear is existential fear, gut type anger is existential anger.
> 
> 
> This is true of Two.


I don't remember what quote this was in response to, so I will say the same things I pointed out before: It has to be taken in the context. 




> Thanks for sharing this)
> But...what does it have to do with Four? Why would not Two not have being 'daddy's girl' (gosh that phrase sounds creepy considering how she usually uses that word) as unconscious survival mechanism? Isn't that more in the Two alley than Four...cleaving to someone else as an existential crutch? I get that it's Four too (mostly because of line to Two) but what does this mean? *How do you see Two? Just images slapped together for the lolz*?


My question is why can't FOURS have this issue? Just because other fours on here aren't necessarily like that? In fact Social fours description includes "seduction through suffering/making themselves vulnerable" so I can easily include that under the social 4 description. 

Before you accuse me of *typism*, please keep in mind I have known a two for my entire life.







> ok...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry about that but...lol is comparing Lana del Rey to Taylor Swift really so invalidating?)) I mean, Taylor Swift probably has her shit together more than...most people really at this point, dating world's most eligible bachelor)) So it is different) They do both seem to have a pattern of clinging to people in somewhat self-destructive ways (I think it is heightened for Lana because she is sp-first, different MBTI, different life experiences, different image)...Taylor lives her life like a professional and Lana like an amateur, but that doesn't mean they're different core types))


I have answered this already, so I am not going to repeat myself here, but let me point something out about invalidation...

Yes, it's invalidating when you don't see the person for who they are.
When people laugh at it.
Imo, if you understood it, you wouldn't be laughing. I am not talking about Lana here, just the concept. Trauma isn't something to make light of either. It is scary and traumatic to have people tell you you are just a lie...I mean...I really don't...I have put everything I can out here and you still "laugh out loud" at it. That makes me feel pretty unsafe. I don't think you completely understand it. I took the risk to look at and answer this in spite of the fact I don't really have to, in spite of the fact that I knew I would be faced with ridicule...which is also what I mean by invalidation. 





> I think Naranjo associated 2s with Histrionic Personality Disorder:
> 
> 
> 
> Which seems closer to Lana's general 'thing', though not completely of course, Off to the Races probably being the best example, sounding almost manic


I am wary of connecting illnesses to enneagram, but I feel like there has to be some connect since the core fears are so different for each type. I do believe I read BPD as being connected to 4, somewhere.




> People with this disorder are often quite_flirtatious_ or _seductive_, and like to dress in a manner that draws attention to them.
> They can be flamboyant and theatrical, exhibiting an* exaggerated degree of emotional expression.*
> *Yet* *simultaneously*, *their emotional expression is vague, shallow, and lacking in detail.* This gives them the appearance of being disingenuous and insincere.
> Moreover, the drama and exaggerated emotional expression often _embarrasses_ _friends_ and_acquaintances_ as they may embrace even casual acquaintances with excessive ardor, or may sob uncontrollably over some minor sentimentality.


I would say she doesn't out of the ordinary. Does it get attention? Absolutely. But in a histrionic way? I don't think so. I don't see exaggeration of emotions whatsoever, in fact she is almost always holding back because shame impedes it. Again, no dramatic emotions. Is she "flirtatious and seductive"? Yes, but this could easily be the BPD. Keep in mind they are under the same cluster, so characteristics can easily overlap.




> People with Borderline Personality Disorder tend to see the world in *polarized*, *over-simplified,**all-or-nothing terms.
> *
> They apply their harsh either/or *judgments* to*others* and to *themselves* and their *perceptions of themselves and others may quickly vacillate back and forth between "all good" and "all bad."*
> This tendency leads to an *unstable sense of self*, so that persons with this disorder tend to have a hard time being consistent.
> They can frequently change careers, relationships, life goals, or residences. Quite often these radical changes occur without any warning or advance preparation.


Yes, I can sense the first one in her lyrics. Fear first of all, does that - so even if you don't have the disorder you can still relate to the feeling of seeing things in "black and white." The fear is apparent in how much she wants to find herself in another person, someone to love her unconditionally - maybe a parent? So tying your entire existence/self-worth to potentially one person will definitely lead to you seeing things in "all-or-nothing."
Yeah she does idealize people she "loves" and I am sure the flip-side of that would be devaluation. I am too lazy to look up lyrics rn.
Her unstable sense of self is _so _apparent. How can it be stable when you are trying to find yourself in another person and ignore who you really are?
I don't know about the last one, since I haven't looked into her history. 
-------------------------------

This is all I am going to say. Last night I didn't respond because I skimmed and saw "invalidation"and "lol" and it made my heart race fast/ feel slightly light-headed. I am really not going to go into how exactly invalidation feels to me because it will trigger things again and I am scared people will make fun of it, which feels cruel. So I don't think I am going to be responding to your (or anyone else questioning/ not understanding invalidation) posts anymore; this is as much as I can take.


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Animal said:


> Naranjo's definition is the exact same one I used in my post here, on page 6:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Envy is different from introjection, as introjection is a response, the 4's defense mechanism, to envy. So, yes, it does start with the blatant emotion of envy in wanting what others have, and knowing how you'll never have it. And you already know this, too. And what you say about 4s below that "4s won't want to take on someone else's life," as if it's absolute and universal, does not match the idea of 4s "emulating others" that Naranjo puts forward. And you can be picky and say, "take on some of the other person's identity," as you say above, is different from "take on someone else's life," but I feel the sentiment is the same, and places one inside the realm of Type 4. I see it as arguing semantics, if that's your rebuttal. All I'm saying is that what's true for you isn't true for others (as you follow up with your own individual experience and how it differs), and also doesn't line up with the conceptual understanding in the post I was responding to, as seen below.



Animal said:


> A bit of an abstract thought but just wanted to comment.  I don't see this kind of complex around self in Lana... or a stronghold on self. *I see her blatantly wanting what others have, like in the quote @Niha shared which she said isn't 4ish (I agree, it isn't). 4s won't want to take on someone else's life; even when traumatized, I personally just wanted to relearn how to embody MY OWN.*





Animal said:


> Fair enough, but how is that theme and positive-outlook "I know you love me" sentiment different from her other songs?


How is "We were born to die" positive outlook again? How are any of her songs "positive outlook"!?

Dark Paradise


> And there's no remedy
> For memory
> Your face is like a melody,
> It won't leave my head
> ...


Loss of Holy Origin:

Gods and Monsters



> You got that medicine I need
> Fame, Liquor, Love give it to me slowly
> Put your hands on my waist, do it softly
> *Me and God, we don't get along so now I sing*


And re: post on Marilyn Manson and loss of Holy Origin, and not belonging:



Animal said:


> Again it's abstract and obscure and I am obviously "reading into this," so take it with a grain of salt haha. But, he's singing about, "We're the nobodies, wanna be somebody.." like he wants to get back to a place where he belongs... but the holy origin / connectivity is very much present from the "social" perspective, because he says "we" are the nobodies. He has found a society of nobodies - LIKE HIMSELF - people who match his origin. But he wants to be part of something greater, still.


Ride 


> *When the people I used to know found out what I had been doing, how I'd been living, they asked me why - but there's no use in talking to people who have home.*
> They have no idea what it's like to seek safety in other people - for home to be wherever you lay your head.
> I was always an unusual girl.
> My mother told me I had a chameleon soul, no moral compass pointing due north, no fixed personality; just an inner indecisiveness that was as wide and as wavering as the ocean...
> ...


And later in the song:



> *Every night I used to pray that I'd find my people, and finally I did on the open road.*
> We had nothing to lose, nothing to gain, nothing we desired anymore, except to make our lives into a work of art.


That isn't different in any way from what you are saying about Manson and how he applies to 4s.

Or, how about the song Phoenix Virute posted? If that isn't identifying with one's flawed self-image...



> I was born bad
> But then I met you
> You made me nice for a while
> But my dark side's true.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

mistakenforstranger said:


> And you can be picky and say, "take on some of the other person's identity," as you say above, is different from "take on someone else's life," but I feel the sentiment is the same, and places one inside the realm of Type 4.


Now I am _taking _this out of context (so not really arguing the overall point you're making), but I think the sentiment can be different, as "taking on someone's identity" is clearly more shame-based, while taking on their life isn't necessarily about shame. So I think that can be a good distinction to make.


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Sun Daeva said:


> Thanks for proving my point.
> 
> You fail to see what _genuine pride_ looks like (Lana), versus the _elitism and mockery_ of Morrissey that is showing here. Lana does not show the *E4 elitism*, Morrissey does not show the *E2 pride*.
> 
> ...


From my view, she isn't showing pride, but I'm not even going to argue with you on this point, because you can see whatever you want to see, and have it conveniently fit your view. And that's the point I was making. Morrissey is showing pride in those pictures, and you can argue it's elitism all you want, but you see elitism, I see pride. Standing next to a "Penis is mightier than the sword" poster? It's ironic, too, as are some of Lana's pictures, you know? Who's to say you're right and I'm wrong, or vice-versa? It also doesn't help that pride is the opposite of shame, so if a 4 does show pride, it can be viewed as a counter-response to shame. 

I love how you kept these pictures out of your stack of Lana to make your point of her being a 2:



















Same photo-shoot you used, but you can see her ring says, "BAD." Huh, flawed self-image?











This is 2 Pride, from an actual 2w3:





































Blowing a kiss to the camera...How 2 of her.












Sun Daeva said:


> Ridicule doesn't flatter you, nor does it make you look smarter, nor does it show any willingness for open debate.


Neither does arrogance and condescension in your case. So spare me the lecture.



Sun Daeva said:


> Are you being dense on purpose or what? How many times do I have to repeat that she *uses it as a play* in her style? It's *central *to her theme.
> Are you seriously going to tell me you just _happened_ to have missed that in my repeated emphasis on that point?
> 
> Show me where I said that 4's can't be sultry. Go on, I'll wait.


So what if you think it's her "game". Is that even how she views herself? 

"Seeing myself on the screen makes me cringe. I understand that I am that way - pouty."


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Distortions said:


> Now I am _taking _this out of context (so not really arguing the overall point you're making), but I think the sentiment can be different, as "taking on someone's identity" is clearly more shame-based, while taking on their life isn't necessarily about shame. So I think that can be a good distinction to make.


It's the "taking on" that's similar in both cases. The process. And in introjection, it's rather a taking in, but those are @Animal's words not mine, which she does clear up in her post in the explanation. It's in response to Lana's quote about "role models," and the idea that 4s would only want to be themselves rather than wanting the life of someone else, which I believe is the definition of envy. I think the quote has a 3-wing influence, and 4w5s are going to be more "true to themselves no matter what", which may be why certain 4s here don't agree with it, or see themselves in it.

"Find someone who has a life that you want and figure out how they got it. Read books, pick your role models wisely. Find out what they did and do it."



> 4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.


Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions


----------



## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> From my view, she isn't showing pride, but I'm not even going to argue with you on this point, because you can see whatever you want to see, and have it conveniently fit your view. And that's the point I was making. Morrissey is showing pride in those pictures, and you can argue it's elitism all you want, but you see elitism, I see pride. Standing next to a "Penis is mightier than the sword" poster? It's ironic, too, as are some of Lana's pictures, you know? Who's to say you're right and I'm wrong, or vice-versa?


Yes, we're both stubborn in what we see. Fancy that.

Elitism is an indirect form of pride, it's what Morrissey does. It's typical for E4 line's to E2.
E2 on the other hand will show pride in a more pure way.



> It also doesn't help that pride is the opposite of shame, so if a 4 does show pride, it can be viewed as a counter-response to shame.


Pride is always a counter response to shame. But if it doesn't line up with the envy and the identification of their flawed self-image, well.. then they aren't a 4 are they?



> I love how you kept these pictures out of your stack of Lana to make your point of her being a 2:
> 
> * *
> 
> ...


Lana's general trend does not involve elitism, it does involve pride.

You can look at however many pictures you like:

https://www.google.com/search?q=mor...ved=0ahUKEwjDrMnAxNDNAhXMMyYKHW_8B8UQ_AUICSgC

https://www.google.com/search?q=lan...ved=0ahUKEwi9waa_xNDNAhWBTyYKHUfpAncQ_AUIBygC



> Neither does arrogance and condescension in your case. So spare me the lecture.


Do you think I would have answered that way if you would've actually shown respect first? Something to think about.



> So what if you think it's her "game". Is that even how she views herself?
> 
> "Seeing myself on the screen makes me cringe. I understand that I am that way - pouty."


Easy: it's how she presents herself. Listen to her songs. Look at her choice of style.


----------



## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

I don't know what to think of the photos; photos can be posed for. If she is trying hard to go for a certain image, she could do that.

In videos she appears self-conscious and somewhat awkward (life performances for example).


----------



## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I love how you kept these pictures out of your stack of Lana to make your point of her being a 2:
> 
> * *
> 
> ...


Oh noes, Selena Gomez must be a 4!!

























(She actually looks like Lana in the pic above..)

Point being, you have to look at their general trend. You have to stop focusing on this trait or that trait, detach and *absorb the trend*. See what the images are telling you.

*Feel* the emotion that Lana is projecting.

I can't believe I have to tell an INFJ 4 this..


----------



## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

@Sun Daeva

Selena doesn't look like a 4 in those pics lol


----------



## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Niha said:


> @*Sun Daeva*
> 
> Selena doesn't look like a 4 in those pics lol


Neither does Lana in the pictures @*mistakenforstranger *posted.



mistakenforstranger said:


> I love how you kept these pictures out of your stack of Lana to make your point of her being a 2:


This sure isn't E4, if that's what you're getting at. It's warm, inviting. She loves, and she stings. Classic 2.

And given her general style, this seems more like a forced attempt to look more vulnerable, with her bleeding heart on the surface. Her warmth is what makes it look.. off.



>


Great picture to showcase Pride. Chin up, powerful look.



> Same photo-shoot you used, but you can see her ring says, "BAD." Huh, flawed self-image?


Huge heart-shaped sunglasses. Large golden jewelry. Light pink dress. Overall feel: summer.

No. This is not the "flawed self-image." This is "I'm a bad girl"-image. Seduction.




Is Madonna a E4 too?


----------



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Niha said:


> @*Sun Daeva*
> 
> No she is holding back, it's not inviting, it's closed off. I can feel her withdrawing.


Self-preservation instinct.



> I do see pride, but I saw that _first_.


Some people argue that instinct is most central and the type is a strategy to deal with the needs of that instinct. I haven't delved into this theory deeply, but interesting thought nonetheless...

...but yeah, any Sp type will have a 'holding back' quality. That is not necessarily how I would define a type 4. Though I do appreciate that you're paying attention to vibes  I get peeved when people completely discount that.



> By the way, can you share a few pictures of fours being _proud_, so that I have something to compare to.


----------



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

You and me both, Mr. Manson. :exterminate:


----------



## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

E4 pride:










lol!


----------



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Phoenix Virtue
Your posts made me purr.

I also find it offensive that people think any "deep" person who expresses genuine emotions is a 4. It's not only offensive to all of my deep, intelligent friends, family members, etc, but also to me, because it belittles the issues I actually struggle with. Let me tell you - I have met some shallow as fuck 4s. One who I still wish I kicked in the face before she became a physical trainer. :laughing:


Equating emotional depth with 4 is just about as _shallow_ as equating intelligence with 5. It misses the whole point of enneagram.


A 4 can be fixated on her identity ad nauseum and still be a shallow jerk. And a 2 can be fixated on being loved and on others, and still explore a tremendous depth of emotion. In fact, my 8w9 friend is one of the most emotionally deep people I've met. He's downright philosophical about the mind, emotions etc, although his instinct is always to take action, and he has to work hard to stay "emotionally awake" and overcome 8 denial. He has 8 "issues," but if you talked to him about emotions, you'd see depth.

Again I agree with you that it's offensive to think anyone who is deep and emotional is a 4... I'm even offended by it and I am a 4. What is the point of enneagram really, then? Why not just use the usual words.. "That person is deep." "That person is smart." Why have the type structures at all? I'll never understand.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Animal said:


> @Phoenix Virtue
> Your posts made me purr.


:kitteh:


> I also find it offensive that people think any "deep" person who expresses genuine emotions is a 4. It's not only offensive to all of my deep, intelligent friends, family members, etc, but also to me, because it belittles the issues I actually struggle with. Let me tell you - I have met some shallow as fuck 4s. One who I still wish I kicked in the face before she became a physical trainer. :laughing:
> 
> 
> Equating emotional depth with 4 is just about as _shallow_ as equating intelligence with 5. It misses the whole point of enneagram.
> ...


_Exactly._ Perfect way of putting that)


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

@Animal, you forgot one :wink::


----------



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@*mistakenforstranger*

xD I laughed irl (I mean that in a good way! Not a sarcastic or mean way, I swear!)



I do agree strongly with the first point especially. I have nothing against religion personally, but I do think it takes *wisdom* as in - experience - not just *knowledge* and *faith* to acquire a "felt" understanding of life and love and loss and God- however one conceptualizes God, even atheists might see "God" in music or in love.


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Amaranthine said:


> I see sp/sx and 2w3, so there's both in a way.


Why sp-2? If she's any 2, it's sx-2. The femme fatale archetype. Every single song is about her relationships. I would say sx/sp.

She's far more like the sx-2, but I still think she's a 4.



> Self-Preservation Two: Entitlement (Ichazo's "Me First")
> Twos typically deal with their own self-preservation needs by first taking care of others' self-preservation needs. They feel that they will win others' love by providing them with nurturing and caretaking. They derive a great deal of satisfaction from feelings of service to others or to causes. They are able to anticipate people's needs and then try to fulfill them. ("You poor thing, you look hungry.") Of course, after taking care of others for a while, Self-Pres Twos begin to expect that others will reciprocate and take care of their needs. But because they are Twos, they feel that they cannot ask directly for what they need. They must drop hints and continue to take care of the other person with the hope that he or she will eventually respond with care for the Two. Over time, this gives Self-Pres Twos a feeling of entitlement. ("After all I've done for them, I deserve this treat.") The problem is that Self Pres Twos feel ashamed of having physical needs. Thus, when others fail to reciprocate in the way that Twos hope, they may privately overindulge in self-preservation "goodies"—comfort foods, sweets, drink, and prescription medicines are frequent choices. They keep hidden stashes of their favorite indulgences as a way of compensating for feelings of loneliness and rejection. Unfortunately, the rewards that Self Pres Twos give themselves often endanger their health and well being, which ironically, undermines their ability to help others.





> Sexual Two: Craving Intimacy (Ichazo's "Aggression")
> Sexual Twos feel that they will feel loved by attaining complete, profound intimacy with someone. Thus they are driven to be as close to their loved ones as possible. They attempt to win a place with people by focusing intensely on the other's needs, hopes, and interests. They enjoy the process of learning about potential partners and make it their business to become acquainted with the other's world. It is as if the Sexual Two was seeking to get "in synch" with the other in as many different ways as possible. Similarly, the Sexual Two will enjoy finding out what the other likes, whether it is a favorite food, cologne, style of music, or favorite place for vacationing. Needless to say, Sexual Twos will then do their best to provide these things for their intimates. Moreover, most people love to be the center of attention, and Sexual Twos know this, lavishing the other with attention, affection, and praise. In this sense, they are seductive-getting others interested in spending time with them by making the other their object of adoration. Sexual Twos also like to touch and be touched by the people they are drawn to, often initiating physical contact in a relationship—even in a friendship. When less balanced, Sexual Twos can become obsessed with a lover and can have great difficulty letting go of a relationship.





Amaranthine said:


> Talking about concepts surrounding type and what they actually mean helps more
> @*mistakenforstranger* do you really think a ring that says "bad" is a sign of flawed self image?
> I had "Moderately Nefarious" as my username, don't think it oozed 4-ness
> The kind of identification with 'bad' she shows I associate with 2, 3, maybe something like 6 or 7, possibly undertones of other things,not sure, I have different feelings about it in different moments, but just not core 4.
> Not saying there's nothing 4-ish about her and her image, just doesn't seem like it's the core of who she is.


It's a weak image, but it's there nonetheless, and also throughout her songs, "I was born bad." Key word: Born, relating to origin. Or, "Tar black soul." This is not how 2s view themselves. 



> Passion: Pride
> Pride is the caused by the loss of the virtue of humility. But pride is said to be the root of all evil and underlies all of the Capital Sins, so to distinguish it further, we can also call this vainglory. *Vainglory is a pride in one’s own goodness, taking a special satisfaction in one’s own virtue, seeing oneself only as a loving, well-intentioned person*. *The passion is not the tendency to be generous and kind, but the compulsion to call attention to one’s generosity and kindness. This is “goodness” that calls attention to itself so that they will be admired for being selfless, praised for being humble, rewarded for being self-sacrificial, repaid for being generous, and so forth.*


Do you view Lana as any of those things?



> *Another more subtle element to pride is the inability to admit that we are hurting, the unwillingness to acknowledge our own suffering and neediness.* *This part in each of us says “You’ve got problems, not me! I’m okay and I’m here to help you.” But in fact, all of us, and particularly Twos, are terrified that we will break down and people will see how sad and lonely we are much of the time. Not only does pride prevent us from allowing people to see that we are in pain, it also prevents us from letting people see that we need anything, or that we are really trying to get something from others.* Pride can also be seen as a fundamental denial of the loss of contact with Essence—particularly the loss of contact with qualities of real love.


Yes, that's because 2's defense mechanism is repression, so they don't want to be seen as "needy," even though they are. Lana parades her suffering and neediness in every song, wanting someone to "save" her from her misery. The other person completes her, makes life feel more alive. 2s do things for other people in the hope that others will give them love in return, but they don't really call attention to it, unless it goes unappreciated or they feel unloved by their response. They have their "bad side" too, but it isn't in their ego to view themselves as bad. Unlovable, but not "bad" in terms of one's identity. That's 4. You'll never find Taylor, Selena, or Mariah say, "I was born bad." 

Compare to sx-4s:



> *These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody's love, they can be very direct about asking for what they need, or can become “extraordinary”- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior- in an effort to attract it. In line with their natural intensity (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally, like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time.* However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.


See this song by Shakira (sx-2) for the "bad" side of 2, but it doesn't scratch the surface of their manipulative, controlling, or possessive behavior. That whole verse I bolded is very 2. And notice how she says she behaves "bad," but that's different from viewing "bad" as an intrinsic part of oneself.

She-Wolf

* *














> S-O-S she is in disguise
> S-O-S she is in disguise
> There's a she wolf in disguise,
> Coming out, coming out, coming out
> ...


A few more sx-4 descriptions:



> Their envy can easily become professional envy. The professional envy is rooted in a desire for revenge (because I know they don't really respect me) and is rooted in a positive characteristic of the Four, an appreciation of quality. *Whereas the Three plays to the crowd in a democratic way, the relational or intimate Four labors to gain the respect of their peers. And not only their peers, but those other professionals who really know quality when they see it.* Threes play for the crowd, intimate Fours play for the other musicians, especially the visitors from the symphony.


*"Feeling like you're respected among the people who do the same thing you do is incredible and necessary."*




> Fours with this theme tend to be highly competitive in close relationships but also more generally. With a mate they are prone to jealousy.* Want to be the most important person in mate's life. Could be jealous of a partner's past relationships, maybe want to be the only person the partner has ever loved. Related to the dependent side of 2.* More broadly can be consumed by professional envy. Long to best others in their work. Can jealously measure their contributions. Petty about keeping score. Want recognition for their uniqueness. Take away from successes of others when threatened.



*Love you more
Than those bitches before
Say you'll remember, oh baby, say you'll remember, oh baby ooh
I will love you 'til the end of time*



> *In any case, Sexual Fours go through tremendous shifts of feeling about their loved ones—everything from idolization to unbridled hatred.* Generally speaking, this type is aware of these feelings, including the dark ones, and finds ways to express them, sometimes in self-destructive ways.


*I say, "You the bestest."

Kiss me hard before you go
Summertime sadness
I just wanted you to know
That, baby, you're the best*

Not a very strong point, but this lyric is curiously similar to Morrissey's lyric from The Smiths' "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out":

Lana -

*I'm feelin' electric tonight
Cruising down the coast goin' 'bout 99
Got my bad baby by my heavenly side
I know if I go, I'll die happy tonight*

Smiths -

*And if a double-decker bus
Crashes into us
To die by your side
Is such a heavenly way to die*



Amaranthine said:


> Not only smiling Disney and Disney-like pop stars are 2s (that's honestly offensive :laughing: ), and not everyone dark or unique or depressed is a 4.


That's your assumption of me, but 2s are part of the Positive Triad. I hope with the inclusion of Shakira, you see that I don't hold that view. She isn't Disney-friendly, but neither is Mariah. And for the record, I don't find Lana all that "dark" or "deep," but I do see 4 themes, and those qualities you attribute to 4 are not why I would type anyone as a 4.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I still have a 7w8 suspicion for Shakira...I would like to see that debated, but have not enough knowledge bank of her character to do so myself)

Does anyone know any sure-fire sx 2s? I'm curious because there seems to be a lot of sp 2 examples, and so 2 is its own beast, but I can't think of any sx 2s. So I don't feel like I have a whole spectrum of 2ishness which is what makes me think Lana _could_ be sx-first even though I feel she's sp-first

And obviously, I'm curious because of my own typing, I'm not sure what sx 2 is supposed to look like compared to sp 2, realistically, assuming I'm so-last.

edit: More about me because it's my thread and I'm really tired but somehow not tired enough to sleep 
@mistakenforstranger 

Personally I think I can relate to the concept of being 'born bad' - obviously I might be another type, I think the only real other option is 6, which would probably relate anyways - but my personal image of myself is someone who tries _really_ hard to be good despite being naturally worse than others, which I take some pride in. Not in the glamorous way that Lana has it going on but just like - my childhood, I remember just trying to always hide what a terrible person I was and trying to be good. There's a line in a Coldplay song "When I was a young boy I tried to listen, and I want to feel like that..." which I always think about, I think a lot of my self-image _is_ being a person who's naturally worse/darker than others. 

For instance this is really stupid but my friend and I had/have actually a long-running story based on Harry Potter, and our characters are obviously based on ourselves and this friend and I mostly talk to each other in terms of these characters so it's not really like a one-off thing, though obviously there's an element of silliness. Probably as stereotypically as possible, my character - who must be a Two, even if I'm not - was born in Azkaban, the daughter of Voldemort, and then went on to live a very 2ish life...

I was really amused when I found the scene where she discovered her parentage, however it is quite in line with my reactions... (obviously I wrote this when I was like 12, but it still says something about my self-image at that time) 


* *





Clara opened the letter. It read:

_Darling Clara,
I hope you are doing well in Hogwarts - Ravenclaw I hear? That's the perfect house for you. Is McGonagall pushing your nose to the grindstone? She always did in my day. I expect you're doing well - a credit to your name.
About your name. You go by Winter, and believe it is truly Lestrange. However, it is not. It is Riddle. Your stepfather is Rodulphus, but your true father is the Dark Lord.
Sincerely,
Bellatrix Lestrange_

Clara gasped. Could it be true? 
It could. And it was. Clara knew it.
Chapter
"Well, crap!" said Clara out loud.
Allina looked at her. "Stubbed my toe," she said.
Clara Riddle. Clara Riddle. Clara Riddle. She wrote it on a piece of parchment. Clara Riddle.
Actually she sort-of liked that. She sort-of liked being related to Lord Voldemort. His daughter. His heir.
Clairdemort.
Claramort.
She had great blood in her veins. Not good blood, but great. So romantic.
No, she liked this better. Voldemort's daughter.
No, she didn't. She wanted Allina's family.
But that was so ordinary. She didn't want to be ordinary. 
"Merry Christmas!" she squealed. "Let's go down to the feast!"




edit: I just want to emphasize that 12-year old me thought the obvious reaction would be to start making portmanteau names :laughing: that kills me

And yes I'm aware that middle school fanfiction is no way to type or say anything about type - actually on the contrary it might be the best way to get an honest look at someone (me) because self-awareness was low and image-crafting was high, but still...))

Anyways obviously my character had only nominal worries about this dark background; I had her literally be conceived through dark magic/a curse which was supposed to explain the darkness in [my actual] personality

I thought this would be less long-winded and irrelevant for some reason. But yes that's my personal take on that. Actually, kinda funny, of me and my 4 friend it was always agreed that I was the 'dark' sister/friend, I always took the dark side, not just in this story but a couple others. It was/is a theme of ours. Seeming very consistent with our personalities. And I'm sure she's a Four.

Anyways, obviously need to sleep, let me stop typing)) Goodnight)


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I still have a 7w8 suspicion for Shakira...I would like to see that debated, but have not enough knowledge bank of her character to do so myself)


Based on her lyrics, I would say 2w3, but in interviews, she might be 3, or that's the so-instinct of 2 ("Ambition"). Taylor Swift is another 2w3 so-instinct confused for 3, for the same reason. Not completely convinced of Shakira's type, but those lyrics I posted are representative of 2, which is the point.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> Does anyone know any sure-fire sx 2s? I'm curious because there seems to be a lot of sp 2 examples, and so 2 is its own beast, but I can't think of any sx 2s. So I don't feel like I have a whole spectrum of 2ishness which is what makes me think Lana _could_ be sx-first even though I feel she's sp-first
> 
> And obviously, I'm curious because of my own typing, I'm not sure what sx 2 is supposed to look like compared to sp 2, realistically, assuming I'm so-last.


Here's a long list. They're probably not all right, though.

Stackemup Enneagram

2w3



> 2w3 so/sp Wendy Williams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6YSVo-OP0M
> 2w3 so/sp Niecy Nash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1q6qVx7T9o
> 2w3 so/sp Baje Fletcher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0capzFh7E
> 2w3 so/sp Susan Powter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvvl-35E-tE
> ...





Phoenix Virtue said:


> edit: More about me because it's my thread and I'm really tired but somehow not tired enough to sleep
> @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> Personally I think I can relate to the concept of being 'born bad' - obviously I might be another type, I think the only real other option is 6, which would probably relate anyways - but my personal image of myself is someone who tries _really_ hard to be good despite being naturally worse than others, which I take some pride in. Not in the glamorous way that Lana has it going on but just like - my childhood, I remember just trying to always hide what a terrible person I was and trying to be good. There's a line in a Coldplay song "When I was a young boy I tried to listen, and I want to feel like that..." which I always think about, I think a lot of my self-image _is_ being a person who's naturally worse/darker than others.
> ...


Not really seeing 2 in your story, and actually a lot more 4. These lines especially, from the "romanticizing" one's defects/identity, to the envy of another (Allina), to the desire to not be "ordinary." That's more along the lines of 4. 



> She had great blood in her veins. Not good blood, but great. So romantic.
> No, she liked this better. Voldemort's daughter.
> No, she didn't. She wanted Allina's family.
> But that was so ordinary. She didn't want to be ordinary.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Based on her lyrics, I would say 2w3, but in interviews, she might be 3, or that's the so-instinct of 2 ("Ambition"). Taylor Swift is another 2w3 so-instinct confused for 3, for the same reason. Not completely convinced of Shakira's type, but those lyrics I posted are representative of 2, which is the point.
> 
> Here's a long list. They're probably not all right, though.
> 
> ...


Thanks) Never heard of most of these people)



> Not really seeing 2 in your story, and actually a lot more 4. These lines especially, from the "romanticizing" one's defects/identity, to the envy of another (Allina), to the desire to not be "ordinary." That's more along the lines of 4.


Yeah...I know what you mean) Maybe line to 4)

But I think the overall reaction was 2 because...finding out you're the daughter of Voldemort...

9: Wait, I'm related to the person who did all these terrible things?
6: What does this mean for me? Will I be safe if people find out? What will Voldemort do?
1: Oh my God the corruption has reached me, I must fight this
4: This makes so much sense, I knew something was wrong with me
2: OMG I'm a dark princess!!! :words:

And my character's reaction was...a little dip into 4 but mostly 2) "His daughter. His heir". My main concern was like..."So what's my name gonna sound like?"

And I think I was using "She didn't want to be ordinary" in the "Because I'm a thousand tiers higher than everyone else" sense rather than then Four sense. 










Character went on to embrace that image, ended up in a political marriage to who became an evil dictator and lived for years deluded that her husband secretly/actually loved her, defending that side, and behaving very 2ishly generally

I thought of it because my friend and I recently assigned the 'kinda outta luck' (I was born bad) to my character a bit jokingly)) but this is a huge digression, I guess my point was just about accepting a dark image, etc., being possible for 2s especially if there's some thing that makes it good (dark aristocracy! dark sexiness!) 

But yeah I need to not use myself as an example and especially not middle-school-avatar-me as an example)))


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Do you know who was probably a 2? Lydia in this Death Comes to Pemberley









(Sorry, tried to make gifs but they are bad)









(Explaining why someone is in love with her)










The actress has some head-ish energy though


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> But I think the overall reaction was 2 because...finding out you're the daughter of Voldemort...
> 
> 9: Wait, I'm related to the person who did all these terrible things?
> 6: What does this mean for me? Will I be safe if people find out? What will Voldemort do?
> ...


Wow.. just when I thought your posts couldn't possibly be more brilliant.

Seriously. This.



> 4: This makes so much sense, I knew something was wrong with me
> 2: OMG I'm a dark princess!!! :words:


I'm gonna end up linking people to your posts instead of mine when they ask about 2 and 4 from now on. :laughing:


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> And I think I was using "She didn't want to be ordinary" in the "Because I'm a thousand tiers higher than everyone else" sense rather than then Four sense.
> 
> I thought of it because my friend and I recently assigned the 'kinda outta luck' (I was born bad) to my character a bit jokingly)) but this is a huge digression, I guess my point was just about accepting a dark image, etc., being possible for 2s especially if there's some thing that makes it good (dark aristocracy! dark sexiness!)


This can all be Type 4, too. 4s can have an elitist attitude ("thousand tiers higher than everyone else") to overcompensate their feelings of deficiency.



> Thus, Fours can manage to feel superior to others while also secretly harboring some degree of longing and envy. A feeling of being a member of the"true aristocracy" alternates with deep feelings of shame, and fears of somehow being deeply flawed or defective.


I'm not questioning your type, but I don't think it's always helpful to reference yourself, and use it to compare to another person's experience (i.e. I have a dark side, therefore all 2s do, which means Lana can also be a 2), in terms of typing a person.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

mistakenforstranger said:


> This can all be Type 4, too. 4s can have an elitist attitude ("thousand tiers higher than everyone else") to overcompensate their feelings of deficiency.


Yes, but I don't think just saying 'I don't want to be ordinary' is much of a sign of Four - especially from a middle-schooler! - idk if there's a single type that would not at some point think 'I don't want to be ordinary'.

Especially when it's _this_ kind of 'don't want to be ordinary'...






(for the record I think this character is 3w2)



> I'm not questioning your type, but I don't think it's always helpful to reference yourself, and use it to compare to another person's experience (i.e. I have a dark side, therefore all 2s do, which means Lana can also be a 2), in terms of typing a person.


For the record, feel free to question my type! I hope that the little question mark in my signature implies 'type open to question' though it kinda looks like it's just to the instincts or is just me wondering or something

But I agree that it's not _really_ helpful to reference oneself (as I said)' it's somewhat hard for me to think objectively about types, especially when I'm tired, which I was, so...yeah, I apologize)

Though, to nitpick, my logic wasn't 'I have a dark side, therefore all 2s do' it was 'I acknowledge/embrace my dark side, therefore 2s can, and might do in a similar way, which means Lana can also be a 2, because she does it in a similar way' though I agree it wasn't a great argument)

But tbh I wasn't thinking that much about Lana, more just 'what 2s are and aren't'

Anyways, not ignoring the thing about Four being elitist too...that makes sense to me, the 'true aristocracy' concept; I'd like to hear more about it though, don't know enough about Four o know exactly what it means and how it really differs from 2 pride.

This song for instance has something that to me sounds like 'true aristocracy' though it doesn't sound 4ish to me...maybe a little 4ish, not sure (maybe 9 but that's probably stereotypical)
"We are the lucky ones
We shine like a thousand suns
When all of the colors run together"

* *














Which reminds me of the LDR lyric:

* *














"We celebrate our twisted fate; we're the broken ones!"

So I don't know. Four is a slightly confusing type for me))

edit: somewhat nitpicky thing, but I want to clarify that I'm not arguing that I can't see Lana del Rey fitting Four, I just don't think Four _is her type._ I'm not arguing that Fours would never say the things she says or that some things about her aren't Fourish - actually I can see her fitting Six in the same way - but I think she _is_ a Two, doesn't just fit Two. I mean that's taken for granted when arguing anyone's type but just sorta to clarify terms.

I don't really know enough about Four to know what does and doesn't fit Four, either. I mean hopefully I understand parts but it's like...similar to guessing if my brother will like a certain song or not, I might have an idea yes or no but he's already admitted to liking/disliking a song or for some reason I encounter a song that has his name written all over it, I can only speculate.

Probably true for all the non-2 types though, and then with 2 the problem is distinguishing 'just me' from 'general type-related thing'
__________________________
@Animal thank you :blushed: I don't know how to respond; I feel like a fashion designer complimented my outfit)

__________________________
@Views from Kanto not trying to seem like someone who counts up thanks and obsessively compares them; personally I thank completely according to my mood and usually don't notice, but why did you thank Animal's post complimenting my post and not my post? :laughing: I'm just curious/amused; I feel like I noticed this happen before)) What is your thanking philosophy?


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

@Phoenix Virtue

Thought I did, must have had a brain fart and forgot to scroll up. I don't have a thanking philosophy other than if I like/agree with a post.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Yes, but I don't think just saying 'I don't want to be ordinary' is much of a sign of Four - especially from a middle-schooler! - idk if there's a single type that would not at some point think 'I don't want to be ordinary'.
> 
> Especially when it's _this_ kind of 'don't want to be ordinary'...


Haha, yeah, in regards to being in middle-school, so I agree, it has to be more of a preoccupation for it to be related to one's type. Again, not meaning it to be indicative of your own type, but your character's motivations in that particular scene you wrote can be viewed as 4-ish, also. And with Lana, I see that theme of "defective"-ness over and over again in her songs, assuming we take her to be the same person expressed in her songs. I mean to say it's there in a way that you don't really see in any Type 2 artists' music. 

Even with the list of 2w3s I provided, can you see her fitting in there? Selena and Mariah were both listed, and I believe Taylor's on the 3's list.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> (for the record I think this character is 3w2)


I have not seen Game of Thrones. Am I the only one?



Phoenix Virtue said:


> For the record, feel free to question my type! I hope that the little question mark in my signature implies 'type open to question' though it kinda looks like it's just to the instincts or is just me wondering or something
> 
> But I agree that it's not _really_ helpful to reference oneself (as I said)' it's somewhat hard for me to think objectively about types, especially when I'm tired, which I was, so...yeah, I apologize)
> 
> ...


Ok, gotcha.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> Anyways, not ignoring the thing about Four being elitist too...that makes sense to me, the 'true aristocracy' concept; I'd like to hear more about it though, don't know enough about Four o know exactly what it means and how it really differs from 2 pride.


It manifests as more of snobbishness in terms of taste, aesthetic qualities, a disdain for the common people and their simple, happy pleasures. Think Niles in Frasier. And a more unhealthy one would be like Dostoevsky's Underground Man ("Notes from Underground") or Harry Haller in Hesse's "Steppenwolf."

Notes from Underground

"And why are you so firmly, so triumphantly, convinced that only the normal and the positive--in other words, only what is conducive to welfare--is for the advantage of man? Is not reason in error as regards advantage? Does not man, perhaps, love something besides well-being? Perhaps he is just as fond of suffering? Perhaps suffering is just as great a benefit to him as well-being? Man is sometimes extraordinarily, passionately, in love with suffering, and that is a fact."

Steppenwolf

"For what I always hated and detested and cursed above all things was this contentment, this healthiness and comfort, this carefully preserved optimism of the middle classes, this fat and prosperous brood of mediocrity."

"I cannot understand what pleasures and joys they are that drive people to the overcrowded railways and hotels, into the packed cafés with the suffocating and oppressive music, to the Bars and variety entertainments, to World Exhibitions, to the Corsos. I cannot understand nor share these joys, though they are within my reach, for which thousands of others strive. On the other hand, what happens to me in my rare hours of joy, what for me is bliss and life and ecstasy and exaltation, the world in general seeks at most in imagination; in life it finds it absurd. And in fact, if the world is right, if this music of the cafés, these mass enjoyments and these Americanised men who are pleased with so little are right, then I am wrong, I am crazy. I am in truth the Steppenwolf that I often call myself; that beast astray who finds neither home nor joy nor nourishment in a world that is strange and incomprehensible to him."



Phoenix Virtue said:


> This song for instance has something that to me sounds like 'true aristocracy' though it doesn't sound 4ish to me...maybe a little 4ish, not sure (maybe 9 but that's probably stereotypical)
> "We are the lucky ones
> We shine like a thousand suns
> When all of the colors run together"
> ...


I'm really not sure about the first song, but Lana's seems 4 to me. That's a reoccurring image in 4s, that we see ourselves as "broken". 

It wouldn't surprise me if Hayley was a 4 (4w3 so/sx, 4-6-9 tri-type is a tentative typing I have for her):


* *














> I am outside
> And I've been waiting for the sun
> With my wide eyes
> I've seen worlds that don't belong
> ...


Or, this from Leonard Cohen:



> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Views from Kanto said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Phoenix Virtue</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> 
> Thought I did, must have had a brain fart and forgot to scroll up. I don't have a thanking philosophy other than if I like/agree with a post.


Good, you're clear)



mistakenforstranger said:


> Haha, yeah, in regards to being in middle-school, so I agree, it has to be more of a preoccupation for it to be related to one's type. Again, not meaning it to be indicative of your own type, but your character's motivations in that particular scene you wrote can be viewed as 4-ish, also. And with Lana, I see that theme of "defective"-ness over and over again in her songs, assuming we take her to be the same person expressed in her songs. I mean to say it's there in a way that you don't really see in any Type 2 artists' music.
> 
> Even with the list of 2w3s I provided, can you see her fitting in there? Selena and Mariah were both listed, and I believe Taylor's on the 3's list.


I don't really see the theme of defectiveness _so much_ in her music. With the list...well, I know what you mean, I just take issue with the idea that 2s are all Selena Gomezes) Nothing against Selena of course, just...
I mean, there might be some mixing of...Selena probably (I?)SFJ, Taylor ESFJ, Mariah, don't know about her but probably xSFJ from what I've seen online) Since Lana's an ISFP I'd expect there to be difference, plus different background/style/etc

I mentioned this singer as a probable 2, I think she seems similar to Lana in a way, like here
edit: the girl, not the super 6-looking guy)





_
"Why do you keep silence? Why aren't you listening to me?
You're not telling me, that you can't breathe without me
I got tired of waiting until the the short horns
Replaced the sad words

Maybe you'll realize, that you made a mistake
Once again on your face I'll see a smile
Well, but answer me, I'm falling to pieces in the silence
Indeed I cannot live without you
(I'm dying, do you hear me?)

[...]

And maybe it's best for you to forget everything
And for me to open my heart and free my soul
Or maybe it's best for you to tell about everything
Indeed I won't sleep, until I know...
...for your gentle voice, I am now ready for everything again...


_

I mean, it reminds me perhaps of this:








> I have not seen Game of Thrones. Am I the only one?


I was, but then I watched it, so I think yes)
Recommend it though)
But I was just using that clip for "Do you want to be a queen?" "No. I want to be _the_ queen".



> It manifests as more of snobbishness in terms of taste, aesthetic qualities, a disdain for the common people and their simple, happy pleasures. Think Niles in Frasier. And a more unhealthy one would be like Dostoevsky's Underground Man ("Notes from Underground") or Harry Haller in Hesse's "Steppenwolf."
> 
> Notes from Underground
> 
> ...


This makes sense! Thanks)


> I'm really not sure about the first song, but Lana's seems 4 to me. That's a reoccurring image in 4s, that we see ourselves as "broken".
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if Hayley was a 4 (4w3 so/sx, 4-6-9 tri-type is a tentative typing I have for her)


Looked up in interview out of curiosity...I'm thinking 9 maybe? don't know enough about her though)


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I don't really see the theme of defectiveness _so much_ in her music. With the list...well, I know what you mean, I just take issue with the idea that 2s are all Selena Gomezes) Nothing against Selena of course, just...I mean, there might be some mixing of...Selena probably (I?)SFJ, Taylor ESFJ, Mariah, don't know about her but probably xSFJ from what I've seen online) Since Lana's an ISFP I'd expect there to be difference, plus different background/style/etc


I still see the themes of "defectiveness" in Lana, but I know what you mean by saying all 2s wouldn't be like Selena Gomez. I didn't mean it in that way, only to use as a comparison to Lana's themes in her songs.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> I mentioned this singer as a probable 2, I think she seems similar to Lana in a way, like here
> edit: the girl, not the super 6-looking guy)
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I can see that as 2.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> I mean, it reminds me perhaps of this:


See, this song is different to me, though. It's more like the song you posted by Sinead O'Connor, "Nothing Compares 2 U," and Lana even says, "No one compares to you." I don't see it as Positive Triad, "You soul is haunting me / but I wish I was dead," or "Every time I close my eyes / it's like a dark paradise," or "There's no remedy for memory." It's about the other person completing her, and now it's gone, which of course, wouldn't be expressed "positively," but it's a theme throughout all of her songs. And the way Sinead (or Prince) says this is similar to Lana's lyrics:

Sinead -

I went to the doctor and guess what he told me
Guess what he told me
He said, "Girl, you better try to have fun no matter what you do."
But he's a fool

Lana -

All my friends tell me I should move on
I'm lying in the ocean singing your song
Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ahhh
That's how you sang it



Phoenix Virtue said:


> I was, but then I watched it, so I think yes)
> Recommend it though)
> But I was just using that clip for "Do you want to be a queen?" "No. I want to be _the_ queen".


Haha, I probably am the only one. It never really interested me. Yes, I saw what you mean, and without knowing anything else about this character, that scene felt 3-ish, perhaps 8, too.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> This makes sense! Thanks)


Glad it helped!



Phoenix Virtue said:


> Looked up in interview out of curiosity...I'm thinking 9 maybe? don't know enough about her though)


:laughing: I didn't realize the singer of the first song's name was Hayley, too! I meant Hayley Williams from Paramore in the song I posted is a 4w3 so/sx. The song you posted from this Hayley did seem 9.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

said no 4 ever.

Well I dived in the music video share duel. Does she even write her own songs? I don't think individual songs are good for typing, nor specific lyrics but the general aura or quotes are probably telling.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

@mistakenforstranger haha that makes more sense :laughing: I agree Hayley Williams seems like a 4))

More later, but in conjunction with @nichya's post I'd add this:






Which seems interesting especially considering the earlier color conversation)


> _
> I paint my nails black,
> I dye my hair a darker shade of brown
> 'Cause you like your women Spanish, dark, strong and proud
> ...


It's 'I see a black door and I want it painted red, stop painting your doors black please'

edit: And I mean it has that 'all for you' theme, like in Shades of Cool "But I can't fix him, can't make him better, and I can't do nothing about his strange weather"

Though the most 2ish line in that is 'And when he calls, he calls for me, and not for you...'


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Though the most 2ish line in that is 'And when he calls, he calls for me, and not for you...'


haha, yea, I thought of that too, and thought some would interpret as envy of a 4 (it is NOT!!) but classically of a 2, reminded me of this:


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

nichya said:


> Well I dived in the music video share duel. Does she even write her own songs? I don't think individual songs are good for typing, nor specific lyrics but the general aura or quotes are probably telling.


I would agree that typing by songs isn't the best method, so here's some quotes I had posted earlier:

"I have a personal ambition to live my life honestly and honor the true love that I've had and also the people I've had around me."

"I used to wonder if it was God's plan that I should be alone for so much of my life. But I found peace. I found happiness within people and the world."

"I have taken my music to labels for years, and everyone just thought it was creepy. They thought the images with the music were weird and verging on psychotic."

"I knew I wanted to do something creative. I didn't think I'd have the luxury of doing something like that, because I didn't know anyone who had pursued anything they really adored, but I had dreams for singing or writing."

"When you’re an introvert like me and you’ve been lonely for a while, and then you find someone who understands you, you become really attached to them. It’s a real release." 

"When I was young I felt really overwhelmed and confused by the desire not to end up in an office, doing something I didn't believe in."

"If you are born an artist, you have no choice but to fight to stay an artist."

"I write my own songs. I made my own videos. I pick my producers. Nothing goes out without my permission. It's all authentic."


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

mistakenforstranger said:


> "I write my own songs. I made my own videos. I pick my producers. Nothing goes out without my permission. It's all authentic."


wow, I am impressed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Songs_written_by_Lana_Del_Rey


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

I think her answer from 3:30 - 4:15 on why she's chosen to be Lana vs Lizzie is telling.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I think her answer from 3:30 - 4:15 on why she's chosen to be Lana vs Lizzie is telling.


Telling in what way? It is just her being in control of her own name. She is assertive and controls what she is playing. Of course I would think a name should speak to just anyone and feel right too.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> edit: somewhat nitpicky thing, but I want to clarify that I'm not arguing that I can't see Lana del Rey fitting Four, I just don't think Four _is her type._ I'm not arguing that Fours would never say the things she says or that some things about her aren't Fourish - actually I can see her fitting Six in the same way - but I think she _is_ a Two, doesn't just fit Two. I mean that's taken for granted when arguing anyone's type but just sorta to clarify terms.


Actually I'm curious, how do you see her fitting 6?

@*Animal*
Also I'm wondering if you have other examples you think expresses a Holy Idea >_>


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

nichya said:


> Telling in what way? It is just her being in control of her own name. She is assertive and controls what she is playing. Of course I would think a name should speak to just anyone and feel right too.


I see it more as she wants a glamorous, romanticized image symbolized by Lana rather than to be the plain, boring Lizzie. A feeling of Lizzie is not me, even though, Lizzie is, in truth, her. It reminds me of this passage from Riso-Hudson on 4s: 



> They want to let others know about who they believe they really are, but fear that they will be humiliated or laughed at. This is not an entirely unreasonable fear, because Fours probably have developed a persona which has little connection with their own background or experience (like the person from a small, Midwestern town who affects a British accent to feel more refined and sophisticated).


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I see it more as she wants a glamorous, romanticized image symbolized by Lana rather than to be the plain, boring Lizzie. A feeling of Lizzie is not me, even though, Lizzie is, in truth, her. It reminds me of this passage from Riso-Hudson on 4s:


Yes agreed on Riso-Hudson, even including the persona but I think that would be overreading because it would mean most of the music industry is enneagram 4, and although that sounds probable I am still estimating a less dominant majority  Besides, she did use Lizzie, she failed, she got bigger contacts and had to start over with a new image, so I doubt her sincerity on that. The whole Lana del Rey image is manufactured, even if she owns it well.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

and then there is this: "Never fear the negativity of others, for their darkness is easily conquered by your light." —Lana Del Rey which is quite in line with her demeanour


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

*Clarification*

It's Azalea.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> But @Niha *I don't mean to imply that you're the only one bringing personal things into it; in case it wasn't clear, I got kinda offended by how I felt your image of Two was, and I'd be lying if I said like 50% of my typing of Lana was based on 'I relate therefore...'*
> 
> And in my mind I have some superior argument because I can connect this argument to this one thing that I thought that I also connect to Two but that's a bit silly. So yes, it's quite subjective.


I think "Don't project!" and "Don't generalize!" are much too over-emphasized. We all do that and it has its own merits and it's own limitations. 
To be completely honest, I never meant it as a comparison between 4s and 2s, and I kept getting the impression that you and @Amaranthine thought that. And so I kept trying to separate the two, but I was in a very scary place at the time so not very good at thinking. But now I think I can put it more clearly. So allow me...

[This has nothing to do with the topic on hand, just made me think of this when you mentioned comparing yourself (general)] Also, I do believe we all pride ourselves on specific qualities we have, but I don't really care for outside validation (not talking about emotional validation) of who I am, as much as I want it to come from within. If I lived in a society where 4s were most valued, or most shunned either way I wouldn't care. I am still me...and after a long time I have realized that I can't just make me into things people want me to be, but that doesn't mean I don't have a lot to offer.



> I was purely referring to your claim that you can see what other people can see.
> Maybe you can, maybe you can't. I don't know. But it feels like trying to bolster your credentials rather than make a better argument. Like pointing at your degree instead of participating in an argument. Except there's not proof it's a valid degree.


I am not the only one though. I am not talking about Lana but I feel like *we all relate* in an uncanny way to some people. It wasn't a bolstering of credentials, just clarifying where I was coming from. It's really difficult to put Fi-led (saying "Fi-led" because I do wonder if Fi-users do this more, and I don't really know and don't want to say something inaccurate) discovery into words.



> I haven't even fucking talked about invalidation, *wanted nothing to do with the subject,* you're the one who keeps bringing it up, and insisting on projecting it into this argument about a celebrity's typing. I get that it was painful for you, very sorry, but it's not something that's relevant to this conversation, *you're trying to use it as a strange trump card, maybe because you know your argument has nothing to stand on.* If you want to talk about your experience with it that's fine, not on-topic but I don't really care, this is supposed to be a fun forum, not everything has to be on topic, but no, I don't care about invalidation in the context of typing Lana del Rey as Two or Four, because that's not relevant. I don't scream 'omg you're invalidating this person' if someone disagrees. I assume they just disagree.


I think it will help to clarify:

I made the thread on Lana del Rey to argue for her as a 4, because I recently saw another saying she wasn't. Then when the posts poured in, at first I didn't realize that it was triggering me because it was a memory from the past that clawed it's way in (which is why I may have come across as heavy-handed or condescending or even dismissive of you - and I wouldn't blame you for disliking that - but it was because I was frantically trying to protect myself.). In any case, I made it pretty clear why it felt invalidating. Now: I closed the thread because I realized I couldn't argue if I couldn't think, and also you didn't seem to care about *triggering/invalidating* me, because you dismissed it entirely. Now I see it's because you thought I was conflating it with LDR or "trying to use it as a trump card." I had no such intention. This is all I needed: A validation from you that hurting/triggering/putting my life on the line isn't something you are *okay with.* I understand that when someone uses "trigger" and doesn't clarify what they mean, it can be confusing to see where exactly they are coming from. In the past people have thought it okay to fuck me over, so I don't assume that people are going to be decent to me (not a statement on your character, just pointing out where I am coming from here). If the intention is pure - to not do harm - I am not going to question if someone is trying to hurt me or not. But you didn't clarify that, and you often replied to me in a mocking tone repeatedly, which is why I thought you didn't care. Again, I am not conflating that with LDR. It was merely a trigger and triggers can be uncoupled to be made less dangerous, I know that for a fact. I just did not trust your intentions for the reasons stated above. 



> To be honest, I don't know you outside of arguments about Lana del Rey. I'm sure if I got to know you better I would come to care for your feelings but at this point, I don't see how I could.* I was not intending to cause you pain*.


Thank you for that. Seeing that is what gave me the courage to write this in the first place. 



> I assume you're talking about my post on the manipulation thread?
> Not the same thing as what's going on.
> It's manipulative to be 'sensitive' in a way that you expect that the whole world will shut down and cater to your needs, viewing a celebrity in a way that validates your own self-image or whatever. That is what I was objecting to. Not your 'sensitivity'.


As for me being "manipulative" I can see how it came across that way. But hopefully I have clarified it and its no longer seen as "manipulative." And as for your post on the Manipulation thread, yes that is what I was referring to, which is why I assumed malicious intent (sorry about that).



> *Sorry, have I been dishonest? *
> Really though, you obviously do not want me to be honest, anyhow. If I had been being completely honest from the beginning of this discussion you would probably have been a lot more upset (somehow!), the conversation (which I've mostly enjoyed!) would not have gone anywhere, and I'd probably have gotten infracted...


Yes, by dishonest I mean the tone you used, which came across as mocking and dismissive. But I see that may have been because you felt pushed into a corner. 

This is what I mean:


> What do our fears have to do with anything?
> How can I stop treating you like shit if you're not engaging with me?
> *Do you think I attempt against all odds to have a productive conversation with shit?
> Maybe I would have had more luck though.*


Sideways insulting someone IS dishonest. I have never talked like that, and don't want anyone talking to me like that because it is disrespectful. But again, as I said, maybe you felt like you had no choice, that is why you talked that way.



Amaranthine said:


> @Niha I considered unsubscribing because this thread is triggering me in many ways, but I'm doing a bit better now so I changed my mind.


I am sorry 
Yeah, one of the reasons I couldn't go on was because I couldn't bear to hurt anyone. 



> I understand you and I never tried to mock you and your issues, I myself was on the verge of suicide yesterday and maybe I always am without even knowing, I definitely don't take mental illness lightly, but none of *that has anything to do with Lana Del Rey.
> I can't lie that I see her as a 4 just so you wouldn't get upset.*


Hopefully I have cleared this up.

[quote = Phoenix Virtue]...with what?[/quote]
When I said "I am sorry if I scared you," I was just being careful because I didn't want to hurt anyone. Recently it happened, and it went against all of my values...which I mean I have written about this somewhere else and so I don't really want to go deeply into it. But I cannot bear to be destroyed or feel that I was responsible for destroying someone else.
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@Amaranthine

I do not intend to harm you, I promise. But this is what happened on the Fairy Tales thread:

you guys were talking about the LDR thread and how I was approaching the issue. One person even commented that I was obsessed with talking about 4s and "faux-love" or something to that effect (I am not sure if I misread that, and I truly do apologize. Plus, this person wasn't trying to harm me which I know for a fact. Just pointing it out because at first it felt scary/insulting to me). And then you mentioned me just a couple of pages later (I did not know this thread existed or that you were talking about my thread on here):

*Just to put it chronologically, this was right after I had closed my thread, and Phoenix hadn't started hers yet:*

*"What upsets you so much about LDR not being a 4 that you had both of the threads closed?" *(Barely paraphrasing, I am pretty certain that is what was said. I don't want to dig deep into the thread to get the quote, because the thread is a very long one)

At first I was just confused and angry at being accused of something I didn't do, wfor hich the mod made clear when she emailed you both saying I didn't have the second one closed. I don't want to be "targeted" simply for making my boundaries known.

And I got the impression that it was somehow something personal to you. And I really didn't mean more than what I said when I said "I feel triggered." It was simply that. Not a comparison of the two types. And I really wasn't the only one who thought that you had brought me in, in an attempt to "rile things up." That you meant to provoke me. And then Phoenix Virtue liked it and said *"now LDR will be a taboo topic to talk on the forum"* clearly *mocking* me. So yes, I had a legitimate basis for not trusting you guys. 

I am going out on a limb here, but this would be my best guess for now: Does it have to do with hating being called manipulative? I can assure you that you are not alone. In fact, I think all of us would be super scared of being called a bad person, because "bad people," in society generally, are often treated as less than human. But it is also incredibly important to hold oneself accountable for one's behavior.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

@Temp thanks for this post, I don't have a lot of time to respond but I"m sorry we got off on the wrong foot. It was especially rude for us to be talking behind your back on another thread; I guess it reminded me and some others of a pattern with some 4s who will argue a typing for a celebrity, and a pattern on this forum of people shutting down topics they dislike. Not really about you, just in a similar pot. It seems the case was different and I am sorry.

Water under the bridge?


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## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm on board with 2w3 sp/sx. (For what it's worth my mother is a 2w1 sp/sx.)

I can actually see the argument for 4 because of the idea of "holy origin"... She is not an empty vessel like a 9 or a 3, she knew what she wanted from day one. She was born in the city, her family moved her upstate shortly thereafter, much of her troubling behavior growing up was a result of longing to return to her place of origin. Eg, in This is What Makes Us Girls she sings of being sixteen, "Sneaking out and looking for a taste of real life," by the end of the song she is shipped off on a train to boarding school for acting out. Also from her Rolling Stone cover story in 2014, on growing up in Lake Placid:

"'It was really, really quiet,' says Del Rey, who has compared the town to _Twin Peaks_. 'I was always waiting to get back to New York City. School was hard. The traditional educational system was not really working for me.'

At 14 or so, Lizzy started drinking and hanging out with older kids. The scenario, she recognizes with a laugh, was not unlike the harrowing movie _Thirteen_. 'In small towns, you sort of grow up fast because there isn't that much to do,' she says. 'So you're out with everybody else who's already graduated, and that's totally normal. But it just didn't sit well with everyone in my family.'"

I also remember reading a short interview with her in RS back in early 2012, like the very first day I got into her... They asked her about her musical taste and she said she loved Fun, Fun, Fun by the Beach Boys, which has the lyric "And she had fun, fun, fun 'til her daddy took the T-Bird away." And I don't think I even need to go into Ride, which solidified her daddy issues with lyrics and imagery to the point that people stopped questioning her phoniness... I mean remember 2012? People left and right were accusing her of being seductive and playing the Lolita role just because she wanted to be whatever you wanted her to be, but it's like, Ride kind of shut them all up. After that I felt like the general mentality was something like, "She's not doing this to get your attention, she's doing this because she's _choosing_ to get your attention." Seduction is her vanilla flavor, basically. She relates to the role of the nurturer because she wants the attention of the protective figure. Isn't that the type 2 fixation in a nutshell?

So... Basically what I'm thinking is that she always knew what she wanted: to go back to New York City (which she did, for college) and plant her roots there and start the New York City-based family life she had always wanted and never had. But she didn't get that, which is at the heart of all the tragedy in her songs. This is a lot of speculation on my part obviously, but for what it's worth this was a very similar theme to my mother's life. Be the nurturer, seduce a protector, experience holy freedom? But... "It takes getting everything you ever wanted and then losing it to know what true freedom is."

Also... This is a bit of a conspiracy theory I suppose, but it resonates with me for personal reasons so I'll throw it out there in case it's true. Basically for those who are suggesting she could be a 4 or a 6 instead, I believe the man she writes most of her songs about is a 6w7 sx/sp with 4 for his heart fix:






And for those who were looking for someone to compare her to besides Taylor Swift, she reminds me a lot of the character Rowena Morgan from Mr. Holland's Opus, who I believe is also a 2w3 singer. She looks a bit like Lana did in the Ride video I think...






She also makes me think of a more subdued version of Lea Michele, sometimes.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Also was this supposed to be a dehumanizing comment? Wth?
"*Do you think I attempt against all odds to have a productive conversation with shit?*_*Maybe I would have had more luck though.*
*" 
*
_
If it was...Well your attempts at gutting me when I was most vulnerable, mocking every single feeling I had, continuously insulting me and then calling me "less than shit"...have been successful. It finally took its toll. That's the reason this whole thing was eating me alive from the inside. That's the reason I got nightmares and felt scared that I would have to go back to that point in my life that I had just left.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

How can you even compare a human being to "shit" and think it's not degrading. Even if it was thoughtlessly thrown sentence that would make alarms go off in my head before I even press enter. And for those of you that liked that post..you support this?!


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

And lol to keep accusing me of "we are not trying to hurt your feelings" you want me to ignore the fact that I find certain behaviors extremely questionable and dangerous? I'm not trying to censor anyone but it's my personal fucking limit that if the person I'm talking to cannot be trusted (maybe they are good person in a bad place or just someone that can't be trusted) then I'm really ducking obviously how that is making me feel. I shouldn't have even done that, because there's no point. Trying to have an "objective" conversation by constantly insulting me? How objective is that?!


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Closed temporarily for review. 

Thanks for your understanding.


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## birdsintrees (Aug 20, 2012)

*Thread warning 

Leave your personal disputes at the door
Stay on topic and do not derail with arguments

Thank you. 

Thread is now reopened.*


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