# Can't determine what archetype I am; ESTP or INTJ?



## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

I've recently been introduced to the world of MBTI and am having a very distressing time trying to figure out what type I am. I've found that I can't really rely on any online test, considering I am usually aware of what questions belong to which cognitive function and therefore have a tendency to manipulate the results. Not that I have a desire to belong to any particular type, its just my awareness leads me to question whether or not my answers are actually genuine. It seems to me the two archetypes I relate to the most are ESTP and INTJ. Yes, I understand this seems very odd, as the two archetypes are practically complete opposites. However, allow me to introduce my theory of why I relate to both. 

Honestly, I believe myself to be an INTJ. I read the thread "The Form of the Inferior" for INTJs, and I strongly relate to what happens to INTJs when they are "In the Grip". Even before looking more into INTJs, I felt a strong connection to the archetype. Also, INTJs tertiary function, Introverted Feeling, as the "relief" function just seems right to me. Considering all of this, I believe myself to be a very special INTJ. By special, I mean broken. I speculate that when an INTJ loses all motivation, loses sight of the possibilities, loses their internal values, no longer feels the need, the drive to organize their plans, what eventually results is the INTJ turning to the world. Introverted Intuition is switched with Extraverted Sensing, Extraverted Thinking becomes Introverted Thinking, and Introverted Feeling becomes Extraverted Feeling. In other words, an ESTP. The broken INTJ, one who has begun to doubt himself and lose all hope, feels the need to tune in with the world, to make observations and analyze them, to remain self assured. Perhaps this may only specifically apply to me, but I think there may very well be others such as myself. 

In fact, what finally made me believe that I may very well be an INTJ and not an ESTP is a particularly bizarre experience I had. As I was lying awake, rummaging through my thoughts, thinking about what Extraverted Sensing is and whether or not I'm an ESTP, as tests had shown, I suddenly experienced a funny sensation. It was as if a switch had been flipped on in my mind. In fact, the sensation felt very similar to when the prescription drugs Adderall and Vyvanse suddenly take effect on my mind. When the switch was flipped on, I suddenly experienced a massive rush of energy. I was "in tune" with my surroundings. I literally felt as if I could do anything. 1000 pushups? You got it. Vault over my neighbors fences in quick succession? Sure. Unfortunately, considering I was trying to get to sleep, I resisted these sudden impulses to do physical activities. After about five to ten minutes, the energy subsided. What the hell had happened? I honestly have no idea, but if I were to speculate, I'd suppose this was a prime example of Introverted Intuition at work. Call me crazy, but I honestly believe this.

All of this aside however, I need someone to provide me with a questionnaire, or something of the sort, in order to help me truly determine what archetype I am. All feedback will be greatly appreciated as well and I thank anyone in advance.


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## marckos (May 6, 2011)

Error 404 questionnary not found. Need questionnary in order to proceed *BEEP BOOP PEEB*:ninja:


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

I apologize if I've misinterpreted what you said, however, yes, I realize I am indeed trying to process this in a backwards manner. Logically, it makes more sense to provide a questionnaire before providing an analysis. Not the other way around.


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## marckos (May 6, 2011)

Im leading toward ISTP, thats the mix of an ESTP and INTJ. have you read the descrition about Ti?


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Yes, I have looked into Introverted Thinking. Although I believe it is a function that I think I am particularly adept in, I don't believe it is a function that comes naturally to me. There are many aspects of the ISTP type as a whole that I don't relate with. However, allow me to provide a questionnaire taken from anonymousL's thread.

*1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?
(ESTP/ISTP)
*I have a special interest in theory
I'm not a big fan of mechanical stuff
I've always been somewhat a loner
Naturally athletic, however, when I was younger, I often got bored of playing sports whilst in the middle of playing
As a child, I was pretty sensitive and timid
Before the seventh grade, I approached everything in a very J like manner, constantly working until end result, never playing, only working until I was done
I often had a tendency to organize my surroundings (i.e. organizing my clothes by color, size, brand, etc, ordering my school work by subject, grades received, etc)
My Enneagram trifix is 5w6, 3w2, and XwX (Out of the multiple times I've taken the test, I've consistently yielded 5w6 and 3w2, however, my final trifix has been inconsistent, with 8w7 and 1w2 being common results.

*2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?*
This is an incredibly hard question. For the longest time, I've felt myself to be a shell of a man, broken, somewhat lost in this world. At the age of eleven or twelve, I denounced the existence of god. At the age of twelve or thirteen, I became a nihilist. I'm not exactly sure why I feel the need to divulge this information however I do think it is completely relevant. I suppose what I yearn for in life is to seek and understand the world around me, recognizing the universal truths of the world. Consequentially, I also seek to experience as much as I can, to observe and take in as much information as possible, and apply it to the world to see if it all fits. Knowledge is power but experience is what ultimately causes me to believe whether or not the knowledge I gain is true or not. As to the why? Not quite sure. I suppose it has to do with this inner feeling I have that the world isn't exactly as it seems. In fact, when I was younger, I often had this strange sensation, bordering on phenomenon, where I felt completely detached to the world. I often pondered my existence, finding it incredibly strange. Do I really exist? In retrospect, perhaps this is why I was drawn to physical activities, acting freely on my impulses. I needed to confirm that I was indeed alive, that I really do exist in this world. Or perhaps I was simply trying to get my mind off things by participating in external activities. Either is reasonable to me.

*3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.
*Hmm this is also a rather hard question for me to answer. It has been quite a long time where I've actually felt at my finest. I suppose I was at my finest prior to the seventh grade, before I denounced the existence of god and became a nihilist. I feel this way because prior to this time, I had a natural drive to succeed, to do the best I could, to be a perfectionist. I often went to great lengths in my work, although most of it simply came naturally to me. Ambition was at the core of my character, however at some point, I ceased to care anymore. Nothing mattered to me. The whole world could burn in hell. I lost sight of my future, lost all hope, and naturally this was particularly devastating to me. In fact, I still hold scars to this day because of this.

*4) What makes you feel inferior?
*When I have trouble verbally articulating my thoughts and fail to reach a level of understanding with an individual, which normally results in them thinking I'm some kind of moron. Also, being wrong about something, especially about a particular subject that I have special interest in. Another thing is when people don't take me seriously, disregarding my logic.

*5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)
*I suppose first and foremost, I weigh out the pros and cons. Secondly, I refer to my own personal principles and determine whether or not my decision is right or wrong based on how I feel about it accordingly. People don't generally come to my mind when making decisions.

*6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?
*Normally my emphasis lies in the end product. I don't really care what is done in order to accomplish the task, so long as I feel the project achieves the goal I desire. Preferably, yes, I'd like to have control of the outcome however if the outcome is out of my hands and I still deem the outcome to be a success, it doesn't bother me. Although I'm sure I would nitpick specific details, finding ways to improve the outcome, in the end, whatever works I say.
*
7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it? 
*A time I had a lot of fun was actually when I was under the influence of the prescription drug Vyvanse. My ability to process information became very sharp, which I think, allowed me to create a particular theory about ADHD/Bipolar disorder, to which I showed my high school psychology teacher. Although there was definitely some disagreement, my psychology teacher went on to agree with much of what I said, something I found very surprising, for he was a fairly close minded person. Despite his agreement, I went on to post this theory on psychcentral.com, where I met considerable backlash from its members. In the end, I was able to surmise that although my logic in the theory was superb, the theory held no empirical evidence to back it up, as well as the fact that the entire theory was too general and based on a false premise. Also, in a series of emails I exchanged with my psychology teacher, the subjects being whether or not the universe is subjective and objective, if god exists, and how to determine what right and wrong is, I managed to logically provide what my view on the world was. A subjective world. Unfortunately, my psychology teacher managed to thwart me, stating that the world is actually objective. Despite me feeling that my logic was sound, I could not disregard my psychology teacher's words and ultimately came to accept much of what he said.

*8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)
*Naturally, I tend to theorize. However, if I fail to grasp the underlying principles of a concept, I generally require a hands on approach.

*9) How organized do you think of yourself as?*
At the moment, I am a fairly disorganized person, frequently losing things. However, as I have previously stated, I used to be very organized, often being anal about it. Considering I've been burnt out for such a long time, I ceased to care about organizing things, although at times, I do like to organize my personal possessions. For the most part though, I'm simply too lazy to do it anymore.

*10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?
*I try to understand the principles behind new ideas first, then I solidify my judgments by looking for information that supports it.

*11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?
*Definitely that I follow what I believe in and being myself. I think that harmony must first be achieved within one self before extending it to others.
*
12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?
*It depends on what I am talking about. If I am simply conversing with a friend about non-intellectual things, I generally tend to speak before thinking, just saying whatever comes to mind. However, if I am speaking about things that actually require me to think in order to articulate precisely what I am thinking, I will think before speaking. Preferably, I enjoy one-on-one conversations however group discussions can be invigorating to me, so long as everyone is on the same page. In a group discussion however, I generally remain on the sidelines, not as the center of attention, normally chiming in when I feel I have something cool, funny, or important to say.

*13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speak more than words?
*Again, depends on the situation. I usually find it much more exciting to jump right into action. Almost to the point of liberation. Yet a lot of the time, I like to know where I am jumping before leaping. Actions speak louder then words because actions yield an immediate result and I believe reveals more about a person then whatever words they speak. Yet, sometimes, words can achieve much more than what actions can, often being subtle, and unbeknownst to others. In other words, actions speak for themselves while words require some deciphering in order to truly understand the impact they hold.

*14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?
*Fortunately we are currently living in the year of 2012 where DVR exists. I would probably just end up giving in to my friends and record the show, watching it later. If this wasn't possible though, I'd probably much rather watch the show then have a night out with my friends. Although, I don't see why both can't be achieved hehe.

*15) How do you act when you're stressed out?
*I usually tend to pent up my emotions and try to figure out exactly what is making me angry. I try to logically explain away my anger. Normally, I end up becoming very hostile towards people, especially those I perceive to be the cause of my anger, often lashing out at them with strong emotional outbursts. I start to get angry with anyone and everything within my general vicinity. I criticize everything about my surroundings. One time at my mother's house, during one of these stressed out phases, I verbally assaulted her about how the pillows in the house were getting old and disgusting. Also, another example, as I was trying to be prescribed with Vyvanse by my psychiatrist, my mother went on to tell him that I had smoked spice within the last month. At the time, I was supposed to be clean of all drugs. On that day, where I was supposed to be prescribed with Vyvanse, my mother had "betrayed" me by telling him the truth. I ended up having to wait another month. I FLIPPED. When we got in the car, I suddenly raged at my mother, asking her why she had told the psychiatrist what she did. My mother would not provide me with what I deemed to be a feasible answer. I then repeatedly screamed at my mother "ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!", repeatably, at the top of my lungs. This was perhaps the most emotionally distressing point in my life. I've never lost my composure more than I did on that day.

*16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?
*When people are overly concerned with their image and what other people think of them. 
When people try to appear as if they know what they're talking about but in reality they have no idea what they're saying.
When people try to express genuine concern for another even though they really don't care.
When people are too stubborn to listen to reason or won't even look at the facts.
When people bully and belittle others for no particular reason other then the fact that they take pleasure in their discomfort.
When people try to read between the lines of what I'm saying, mincing my words, even though I normally say exactly what I mean
When people betray what they believe in
When people accuse me of things I didn't do
Hypocrisy

*17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?
*The meaning of life, metaphysics, philosophy, personal opinions and values, real life experiences, other interests I hold

*18) What kind of things do you pay the least attention to in your life?
*Tough question but I think I pay the least attention to other people's feelings as well as my own at times. These are both areas in my life that I frequently neglect on a daily basis.

*19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? What would your friends never say about your personality?
*My friends are very skeptical of me. They often don't take much of what I say seriously, although I admit I think they have sufficient reason to do so at times. Sometimes, they think I'm really smart, although more often then not, they think I am a moron. Most of this opinion stems however, not from believing I hold a real lack of intelligence, but rather a tendency to enact on ideas that are unorthodox. Also, I frequently give in to certain impulses that are completely random at times. What can I say, I'm a curious guy. Most of my friends are Js. Unfortunately for me, I live very much like a P at the moment. I frequently clash with my F friends, who call me a fool, but I get along very well with my T friends, who often appreciate my ability to logically figure out problems. I must admit all of this is totally based on what I think my friends think. I honestly don't really know if they really think this way of me.

*20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing?
*The first thing that comes to my mind is to travel. Out of the country.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

It's tough to say for sure, but I see some inferior Fe here.


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

Have you considered ENTP at any point? A dominant intuitive but with Ti aux. They are a bit similiar to ESTP but are intuitives. Also the more "introverted" extroverts. To me you seem Quite Ti.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Vanishing Point said:


> Have you considered ENTP at any point? A dominant intuitive but with Ti aux. They are a bit similiar to ESTP but are intuitives. Also the more "introverted" extroverts. To me you seem Quite Ti.


Hahahahaha! YES! Actually, when I initially took the MBTI, I scored as an ENTP. I don't know though, it just didn't seem to fit. Looking over things now, I think I really am an ENTP. Wow, I feel like such an idiot now. All of these walls of text just to come full circle. Now that I think about it, much of the Jness that I had when I was younger mainly stemmed from my mother's influence on me, who I believe to be an INFJ or ISFJ. I believe my father to be an ENFP or ESFP. 

I don't know though, sometimes I question whether or not I actually have even a remotely developed Fe. Just earlier today, I was recalling a time when my friend's three year old little brother assaulted a three year old girl whom the boy's grandmother was babysitting. The boy flailed his arms at the girl, repeatably striking the sides of the girl's body. Now, I understand that this is completely heartless, but for whatever reason, I busted out laughing as I recalled this situation. I also have a pretty dark sense of humor, sometimes bordering sadism. In the movie Pulp Fiction, a character in the movie, Marvin, unexpectedly gets his head blown off by another character, Vincent Vega. This was completely on accident, as Marvin and Vincent are both friends. The first time I witnessed this, I almost cried, dying of laughter. Another thing that adds to my sadism is my delight in the movie Hostel. Hostel is a mediocre movie at best however it holds a rather special place in my heart. The main character is a backpacker in Europe who is captured by a secret organization of people, who kidnap people from hostels in order for them to be subjected to torture by paying individuals. These individuals pay the organization a substantial amount of money in order to freely torture said people. Now, the reason why I love this movie so much is because the main character manages to escape his capturers. Along the way, he manages to kill every last one of the people who set him up. He runs over two women who were involved in the setup as well as slicing the throat of the man who originally led him to the hostel in the first place. To me, I'm not only attracted to the fact that he exacted revenge on his enemies, but also the brutality in which he killed them. Er...perhaps I should stop typing hehe. I don't mean to offend anyone. Although if I have, that's your problem :laughing:.


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

No need to feel silly. It's good to explore the other more likely possibilities too.  I tested as INFJ initially but explored the other possible types, INFP and INTJ. 
For what it's worth to me you have a very ENTPish vibe.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Vanishing Point said:


> No need to feel silly. It's good to explore the other more likely possibilities too.  I tested as INFJ initially but explored the other possible types, INFP and INTJ.
> For what it's worth to me you have a very ENTPish vibe.


Ha! I appreciate the comment, I shall take it as a compliment roud:. Funny, it took an INFJ to figure out who I really am. I hear we get along together very well aha. Ya'll are truly awesome.

You know what. I've come to the realization that much of what I said is kind of contradictory. My answers to question sixteen (What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?) are actually a lot of characteristics I used to hold. Some, I probably still hold actually.

Anyways, I know the purpose of this thread (finding out what my personality type is) has already been achieved, I was wondering if anyone can clarify the differences between Ne vs Ni, Te vs Ti, and Fe vs Fi are. How do we know which we are using? More importantly, how do they work specifically in the ENTP and INTJ archetypes?


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

Function Attitude
is a good place to start.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

Though, I would be wary of using the word archetype to describe type... an archetype being merely a symbol or representation...


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

kasthu said:


> Though, I would be wary of using the word archetype to describe type... an archetype being merely a symbol or representation...


If such is the case, then I gladly will continue using the word archetype. I am not my type. Type is merely an ideal representation of who I am. The MBTI is a TOOL, used to provide insight into one's self as well as others. My type is a symbol of who I am. Nothing more, nothing less. Although it is startlingly accurate, I refuse to use my type as my identity in this world. With this said, I've finally come to the conclusion that I'm actually an INTP. Dominant Introverted Thinking with Inferior Extraverted Feeling. You, Kasthu, said that you see some inferior Extraverted Feeling. Vanishing Point said that I seem quite Introverted Thinking. It makes sense that INTP would apply to me. I haven't totally ruled out INTJ but it doesn't seem too likely. According to what I've read, Carl Jung himself could not determine whether or not he was an INTP or INTJ. Similarly, I find myself in the same position. How would an INTX look like out of curiosity?

On a side note, does anyone else find it strange that ENTP's are called Visionaries while INTJ's are called Scientists? Not that I doubt the logic behind it, nor the validity, it makes sense, but its still kind of odd. By way of definition, Introverted Intuition IS the vision, to which INTJ's turn to the world to seek empirical evidence to prove themselves right or wrong. Extraverted Intuition tunes into the world, taking in information, comes up with possibilities, which is then analyzed by the individual. The individual then uses themself to see if they are right or wrong. To me, this seems a little backwards. I suppose this has a lot to do with how the MBTI works, determing type by how one extraverts with the world. Since Introverted types have a dominant Introverted function, their auxiliary function is how they "extravert". Yet according to Carl Jung himself, Introverts interact with the world no differently than Extraverts. In retrospect, I guess it does make sense for ENTP's to be Visionaries while INTJ's are Scientists. Scientists come up with ideas and put them to the test. Using the scientific method as a model. "Visionaries" use the information they take in, come up with something, analyze all aspects of it, then show it to the world. Ulitmate confirmation for the ENTP is achieved through other people. For the INTJ, ultimate confirmation is achieved through themselves. I don't know, this also seems to amuse me, its a tad bit ironic. 

Sometimes I feel the MBTI is too linear. Development is a step by step process, in one continuous line. But in my opinion, it should be more circular. Instead of Ti--->Ne--->Si--->Fe it should be:
EDIT: When I was typing this, I ordered it into a circle, but when I went to post it, it came out as this. Point is, its a circle, starting from Ti, ending with Fi. Forming a circle.
Ti Fi
Ne Se
INTP
Si Ni
Fe Te

Ideally, in order to complete the circle, one continous line should be drawn from the left, starting with Ti, ultimately connecting itself to Fi. In this way, the individual is "well-rounded". However, the circle does not need to be completed in this fashion. Picture the line deviating itself, jumping from one function to another, from Ti to Ni, Ni to Si, etc. This represents all the situations that we may encounter in our lives. An INTP can't always use Ti then Ne in every life experience. Sometimes we may use Ti and Fe or perhaps even Ni and Te. Although it is most likely true that we shall usually revert back to using Ti and Ne, for it is our natural mode of living, we can't always be this way. Some situations require the use of other functions, despite the fact that we may not have a very well developed use of those functions. This is where the strengths and weaknesses of each type shine. When we encounter whatever we may experience. Also, this is when the differences between individuals within the same type stand out. Its all dependent on the context. Perhaps it is better to imagine a circle already in place, with the inside of the circle being white. There are multiple black lines drawn from one function to another, representing our experiences. As life goes on, each line overlaps each other, creating a "pizza". This "pizza" is then further shaded in with gray. How shaded those portions of the circle are, as well as the intensity of the shading, is determined by how often we have been placed in situations requiring the use of those certain functions. Ultimately, if we become truly "well rounded" out, the circle will be entirely black. To be perfectly proportionate. The Vitruvian Man.

Man, I've seriously gone on some kind of cerebral mind trip. Pardon me if none of this seems to make sense, but I'd like to believe it does. I firmly believe in this theory. But whatever, who cares what I believe in. I'll leave it up to you guys to find the answers.

Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Fun paradox.

What is/ the meaning/ of life?
Life/ what is/ the meaning?
What/ is/ the?
Is

Just felt like throwing that out there hahaha. Don't confuse the rest of my post with a troll, I'm being 100% serious.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Vanishing Point said:


> Function Attitude
> is a good place to start.


Holy fucking shit...I just read the definition of Ni provided by that link and...I feel as if my last post is the epitome of Ni. Does anyone else think this? Excuse me as I go find a corner to cry in, my mind feels like its going to explode.


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> Holy fucking shit...I just read the definition of Ni provided by that link and...I feel as if my last post is the epitome of Ni. Does anyone else think this? Excuse me as I go find a corner to cry in, my mind feels like its going to explode.


Or Ne with Ti.  I'd still kind of point you toward going to have a look around the ENTP forum to see if you can relate to the other posters just in case. Sorry if I'm being vague. I get a huge ENTP vibe from you. The exuberant excitement from coming up with an idea and then the Ti fireworks start going off with gusto. Lol. It's a style thing that's making me think ENTP. I still see Ti very much so. If you have yourself on video you can also try visual typing. The best effort on that I've found is on the Jungian Physiognomy site. I tried it and I actually look like an INFJ. Lol. I didn't know there was such a thing but there you go...
It's not science and people often disagree but I find there's a pattern to the behavior...
Here's *INTJ
*



*INTP
*



*ENTP
*



Ryan is an ENTP.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Unfortunately I am operating on my father's extremely slow computer and therefore would rather not watch those videos haha. However, I can quite confidently say that I am definitely an INTJ.

It all came back to me. The reason why I "thought" I was an ESTP is because ESTP is what I'd like to be seen as. This stems from my days back in middle school, where I was extremely sarcastic, critical, and nasty to people. Over time, I realized that most kids called me an asshole. This became a problem to me. So in my mind, I thought to myself "What can I do about this? How can I get people to stop thinking I'm an asshole...AHA!" To become the opposite of who I am. The ESTP. Be outgoing, stop being so sarcastic, say exactly what you mean, go with the flow. In fact, I've been living my life very much like an ESTP for quite some time. But it's time to revert back to my INTJ self. My solution to this is to join the Marines. 

Also, I was quite manipulative of people back in the day. Frequently, more often than not, I got what I wanted. One time, while I was conversing with my ISTJ friend's girlfriend, via AIM, I noticed that she was lying about a lot of stuff. There was no reason to believe that she was lying about these things but I had a "feeling". So, what I'd do was, I'd ask her a bunch of questions. Each question would then be "rewired". After awhile, I logically trapped her by tricking her into responding in ways that would contradict herself. I would then explain to her exactly how she contradicted herself. Nasty business.

Another thing I'm definitely intuitive. Not in the Ne sense either. But In the Ni sense. See what I did there? (See what I did there?) Ni is In spelled backwards. The opposite way in which it's spelled. Sense is the opposite of intuition. Ni is to "sense within". Perhaps not a good example haha, but I definitely believe myself to be INTJ.

All in all, the reason why I had such difficulty believing I'm an INTJ is because unfortunately, due to my environment and the people whom I surround myself with, as well as my mentality, I've become a bastardization of who I truly am.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

Not to derail the thread, but I thought the INTJ vid was fascinating--I rarely watch one of those all the way through, but I was fascinated by how Ne and Ni interacted between the two guys (the ENFP lost me in several places, which confirms that I'm not an Ne person). It's interesting how, both from the video and the OP's posts, how some INTJs seem to want to reinvent the wheel--only to realize that the wheel has, in fact, been reinvented over and over! (and if you could catch the mistake the INTJ in the video made about his classification system, bonus points).


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

MY GOD! The video on the INTJ was perhaps one of the most interesting videos I've ever seen. Even though the video was only roughly thirty minutes long, it took me about an hour or longer to watch. The reason being I had to pause the video and ponder on a lot of the things the ENFP was saying. What the ENFP was saying about the NT temperament being somewhat of a circuit immediately made me think of the children's game Telephone. More often then not, the words of the originator gets twisted into something completely different. It's hit or miss however. 

Now, people can question the validity of this statement, but when the ENFP first talked about the whole wave concept, using the bobble and pond metaphor, I immediately thought to myself "That's fucking stupid. A better metaphor would be to use the concept of radio waves. If "collective conciousness" is the whole point of what you're talking about, radio waves make more sense. The reason being because the _key_ to the idea of collective conciousness is_ communication. _That everyone is apart of one whole, communicating with each other in order to achieve a level of higher understanding. Each person is emitting radio waves which then bounce off each other." This isn't _exactly_ what I thought, but it was essentially what I was thinking. Funnily enough, the ENFP went on to talk about the exact same concept, more or less. My mind was blown. I had to pause the video and think, in the manner I always do, heavily pacing back and forth in my room.

Yes, although I'm not sure if I would of caught the mistake if it wasn't for the fact you made me aware of it, I did indeed catch it immediately. Between 19:02 and 19:49 of the video. The INTJ's classification system was flawed. The Observers and the Analyzers. In both categories he included ISTP. Also, he classified INTP as an observer where as INTJ is an analyzer. Now I confess I don't know enough about all of the MBTI archetypes to really make any accurate comments, however, it seems to me the flaw lies within the concepts of "Observer" and "Analyzer". As well as what the ENFP was saying about how the "circuit" starts from the INTP, then leads to the ENTP and INTJ, ending with the ENTJ. Due to the fact that the INTP is the "originator" of the idea, the man or woman who comes up with the question, it would make sense that the INTP would be the observer. Yet, INTP's are perhaps the most analytical out of any of the types. There's a flaw here. Also, the INTJ is listed as an analyzer, yet it probably makes more sense for them to be an observer, since they have an internal abstract database of knowledge which is then proven by external empirical evidence. To observe the world in terms of what they think per se. External validation versus Internal validation. Strange, I feel as if what I was saying about the ENTP and INTJ in one of my previous posts seems to highlight and exacerbate this. To me, I feel as if it should be more in this order: INTJ, ENTP, INTP, and ENTJ although the ENFP's order in the video also makes sense. Maybe the problem lies in the attempt at universalizing the theory. 

It all lies in the concepts of "Observer" versus "Analyzer". To analyze and observe. Or to observe and analyze. I pose the question, in regards to the "Observer" and the "Analyzer". Are they not one and the same? What they talk about is perhaps one of the largest debates that exist within this world. What came first...THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?! See what I'm saying?! _Origination. 
_Edit: 
What is/ the meaning/ of life?
Life/ what is/ the meaning?
What/ is/ the?
Is

Apply that to the chicken and the egg...maybe the answer is...it simply IS!
For there is no other way!


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

For what it's worth, though, I still get an Ne-Ti vibe from you...


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

kasthu said:


> For what it's worth, though, I still get an Ne-Ti vibe from you...


No, I still feel like I'm an INTJ. The vibe you're perceiving is simply the way that I type (Tee-hee). All of this may seem like I got an idea and analyzed it, but truthfully, none of that shit actually happened in my head. It all just came to me. I don't know if you guys notice, in fact, I didn't even notice, but, the way that I type is very structured and ordered. None of this analysis actually happened in my mind. It didn't come to me until I actually sat down and typed it all out. Step by step, by way of which I "envisioned" it. Or rather, step by step, in which I "think" I envisioned it. I'm so thorough because half the time I have no idea what the fuck just went on in my mind. I just know that I have to get it out there. By taking action, by doing it, by typing it all out. To get to the core, you must first take some steps. To go through the crust, the mantle, the outer core, and finally the inner core. Which is why I type the way that I do. Like a fuse on a bomb...burn, burn, burn...BAM! There's your Ne - Ti vibe for you.

I posted a thread in the INTP forum titled INTP's and the USMC. You can check it out if you _really _want to try to type me. Think it's a little more revealing.


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm getting a strong Ti vibe from you from the way you write. 

The INTJ archetype can be easy to relate to for a lot of people, and if you've taken an online personality test chances are pretty good that you've gotten that result, that doesn't necessarily mean you are one. Go to the INTJ forum and see how they communicate, it's a very different style.

This site: ENFP Wiki has a pretty detailed explanation of the functions. Read up on the different ones and see what you think!


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Everyone is speaking of how very Ti I am yet nobody is giving me any straight answers here. It's starting to piss me off. So, because of the way I write, that makes me Ti? Stupid thinking. Sure, perhaps I am very Ti, but I'm not going to accept that I'm Ti because of the way I write. Why can't anybody actually speak of the content of my writing. That's real testimony right there. Real evidence. The content, not the way in which it's written. 

I have other reasons why I believe I'm INTJ. What I believe to be the results of Ni. Actually, these are probably stupid but whatever. Here's a series of anecdotes:

Not too long ago, I had a dream. In the dream, I remember standing on a balcony looking down into a crowd of people. Within the crowd of people, there was a girl, whom I used to sit with at lunch in highschool. Now in real life, this girl meant nothing to me. Often, I called her dim witted and annoying. She was very pretty however (Cuban with a nice ass, oh yeah!). For whatever reason, even though I didn't talk to her much and insulted her every once in awhile, she still did things such as wanting to walk around with me and hold my hand in public. She showed affection, although maybe not truly genuine, it was still affection. Something I admit I didn't know how to handle. Anyways, I remember in the dream, as I was looking down at her, having a strong feeling of connection. On an emotional level. I remember her looking back up at me as I was looking down on her. We didn't really acknowledge each other than staring but...there was still a connection. It was so strange. The rest of the details of the dream escape me but when I woke up...the first thing that happened was a song started playing in my head. The name of that song is "Lucky Ass Bitch" by Mac Miller. It didn't hit me at first but I realized what the meaning of the dream was. I need a girl. I confess I've never had an emotional attachment with anyone, especially females. Sure, call this nothing, but I don't know...it makes sense to me. You know what, in retrospect, there was probably more to the dream. The balcony, the fact I was looking down on her, the choice of the girl...it's all really strange in my opinion. Some serious symbolic shit going on here. Actually, if memory serves me right, at some point I was actually to be found within the crowd, embracing this girl...think of everything symbolically here. It makes sense to me but I'm not sure how to translate it.

When I was younger, I was playing a game called _Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask _on the Nintendo 64. There was a part of the game where I had to solve a puzzle. I couldn't figure out the puzzle. It was very late at night. So I decided to go to sleep. While I was sleeping, I had a dream. Actually, I think it's more accurate to call it a vision. In the vision, I "saw" the solution to the puzzle. When I woke up, I tried out exactly what had happened in my vision. Sure enough, the solution worked and the puzzle was solved. Coincidence? I think not.

Another example, one time, at my ISTJ friend's house, he wanted two friends and I to leave his room so he can access his stash of money. I then went on to say to him "Everyone knows your stash is right behind that picture of the wolf in the corner of your room" going on to point at it. I had no reason to believe this but I was pretty confident it really was there. He then looked at me, walked over to the picture of the wolf, pulled it off the shelf, pulled out a bike peg that was behind it, and sure enough, the money was there.

At the same ISTJ friend's house, he got a check from work. I knew that he had only been working for about a week or so, so I knew the amount of the money was pretty low. Anyways, before he even opened it, I guessed the amount of money he had received. He looked at me in denial, saying "No, no, it can't be that low. There's no way." He opens it. Sure enough, I guessed the amount down to the last cent. What the fuck are the odds of that.

I was conversing with one of my friends, whom I actually believe to be INTJ, about things we wouldn't eat. For whatever reason, we both thought of the exact same thing...a tampon! What the fuck! Who the hell thinks of a tampon. What are the odds of both of us thinking of the exact same thing. Actually, this INTJ friend of mine often quotes about how we think alike. Which is true in my opinion. We even made a joke about it, calling it our "inner link". We're just naturally synced to each other.

At a party, there was a man who I was conversing with. He told me about the concept of how he thinks the modern U.S. government should be a monarchy and not a democracy. Immediately after he told me this, without even thinking about it, I knew what the core of his argument was. The fact that in the modern day world, a monarchy "would probably work" because everyone would have to abide to the rules of the monarch. However, since the monarch is the center of power in the government, they cannot abuse their power as they have in the past. The reason being because if they did, the people of the United States would overthrow the monarch. By centralizing the source of power (putting a monarch in place) the monarch would _have _to concede to the demands of the people. The problem and advantage of the modern day democracy stems in it's distribution of power. Which was a necessity due to the abuse of other systems of government in the past. But nowadays, a democracy doesn't seem to be as necessary. Not my personal belief but I knew what this man was saying and it really does make sense. This man didn't really get into much detail beyond what I said to him, only smiling and saying "Exactly." I believe this man to also be an INTJ.

I'm sure there's more things I can think of but for now that shall suffice. I strongly believe that this is Ni. In fact, most of the time when I "think", I don't even think it's real thinking. I almost never think in actual words. It's just like this...unconcious process going on my head. It all just comes to me. Maybe not visually but not really what most people would probably call logical either. Unless I'm analyzing a situation but I don't always do that. Another thing I'd like to add is, when I was younger, I think people described me as hyperactive. Not sure if they meant this physically but I assume it was. I was always up to something. Both literally and figuratively. Either actually doing something or devising something. Some type of antics. 

Oh, by the way, I don't really like those descriptions provided by that link. Although they are accurate, I hate how each description is written as if they are operating as someone's dominant cognitive function. I mean yeah, I guess it makes sense for them to be written in that way but it seems...off. I don't know. Whatever. You know, like, Ti for an ESTP is probably a lot different than Ti for an INTP. Or Te in ENTJ's is probably different than ISTJ's Te. Meh, I talk too much. Enough of this haha.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

I think the problem I'm having here is that I'm trying to look under the hood of the proverbial car, so to speak, while you're still looking at the what. I think anyone can make a bunch of statements and say that's Ni, but the way you break things down still speaks of Ti and this is my puerile Ni digging in its heels for stubbornness, because damnit, I could be right, haha!). Of course, I could be totally wrong... it's all up to you, I can't put myself in your shoes.


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

@*TheLaughingMan*Well you are obviously the one who is best equipped in determining your cognitive process. I haven't really analyzed or differentiated what the exact difference between INTJ and ENTP writing is. I guess I would describe INTJ writing as more economic, concise, more informing of the conclusion and less descriptive of the process, dry-ish, at times slightly sardonic. The ENTP writing is more like a landslide, which starts with a few observations and kind of gains momentum and flow and becomes more and more intense and shooting this way and that with an idea that sparks another and another. Kind of like throwing a match into a box of firecrackers.This is just my impression, so take it with that in mind.Both being N-dominant with aux T there are things in common with the two types, though it may not be instantly apparent. 

In any case if you still want more useful links this is my favorite profile page:
Personality Junkie | ENTP
Personality Junkie | INTJ
The INFJ version of these childhood portraits is frighteningly accurate:
http://personalitycafe.com/entp-articles/14767-development-entp-children.html
http://personalitycafe.com/intj-articles/14613-development-intj-children.html


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Vanishing Point said:


> @*TheLaughingMan*Well you are obviously the one who is best equipped in determining your cognitive process. I haven't really analyzed or differentiated what the exact difference between INTJ and ENTP writing is. I guess I would describe INTJ writing as more economic, concise, more informing of the conclusion and less descriptive of the process, dry-ish, at times slightly sardonic. The ENTP writing is more like a landslide, which starts with a few observations and kind of gains momentum and flow and becomes more and more intense and shooting this way and that with an idea that sparks another and another. Kind of like throwing a match into a box of firecrackers.This is just my impression, so take it with that in mind.Both being N-dominant with aux T there are things in common with the two types, though it may not be instantly apparent.
> 
> In any case if you still want more useful links this is my favorite profile page:
> Personality Junkie | ENTP
> ...


This information is excellent and by far the most helpful. Your metaphor for the writing of the ENTP is good. Allow me to tweak it however. In terms of the ENTP, not so much the writing. The ENTP is a person outside of the box. With a match and a set of firecrackers. Who then lights each firecracker individually, throwing them into the box. Sometimes, they light more than one firecracker. Over time, the box is destroyed (of course, ENTP's lose themselves quite frequently). Then, the ENTP finds another box. Only this time instead of a square box, the box is a triangle. Then the process is repeated. Yet again. Maybe instead, they'll use dynamite. Hey, the bigger the better right? As for the INTJ, the INTJ IS the box. Or rather a man in the box (Or a box within the man?). With a complex system of "firecrackers" just waiting to be set off. All they need is the match. The match does not exist in the box...yet the box still gets blown to smithereens...time for another box. Will it happen again?

You know, I thought long and hard about this, planning out all the things I wanted to say in my head. Here's perhaps the best example I could come up with to explain the flaws of our thinking. One day, I was speaking to my ISTP friend. I was explaining to him how logistics is perhaps the most important thing in the military. My reasoning to him was, "What is a soldier without guns and ammunition. More importantly, what is a soldier without food and water. A soldier is still a human being before they are anything." Pause. Question (?). Which cognitive function did I just use? Introverted Thinking to break down the components of what makes a soldier? Or Introverted Intuition to go beyond the perceived meaning of "soldier" in order to cut to the heart of what a "soldier" really is. _A human being_. Ah. What a particularly vexing question. Most of you will probably think I'm simply rationalizing some bullshit but I go on to predict that none of you will be able to refute the logic behind my statement (HA.HA.HA.) For a soldier to be a soldier, they need guns and ammunition. But they also need food and water. Because when it comes down to things, they are not just a soldier, they are a human being. There are first a human being before they are a soldier. They were born into the world as a human being. Then the world turned them into a soldier. Again. A soldier needs guns and ammunition to be a soldier. A human being needs food and water to be a human being (at least if they want to live). A human being can be a soldier. But a soldier IS a human being. So tell me, the CHICKEN or the EGG?! The QUESTION without an ANSWER! Oho. Questions, questions. Something I feel people don't ask enough of (*cough*SJ's*cough*). Truth of the matter is, questions don't directly lead to answers. Instead, they lead to more questions. Question, question, question, ANSWER! Question, answer, question, answer, question, answer. Which one? Perhaps both? You know what I think the secret behind the chicken and the egg is? The answers already exist. They lie out there. For the world can only work in _one _way. The universe exists as it does because that's the only way it _CAN_ exist. All that needs to be done...is for someone to ask the question. The bobble in the pond. That goes onto have a ripple effect. And so, the wheel of time goes on. Reinvented time and time again yet remained essentially the same. Untouched and indifferent to the pleas of the mortal man. Laughing at us.

COLLECTIVE CONCIOUSNESS MOTHERFUCKERS!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(Who am I laughing at. You, I, or the world. The answer: ALL.)
Signed, TheLaughingMan.


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> This information is excellent and by far the most helpful. Your metaphor for the writing of the ENTP is good. Allow me to tweak it however. In terms of the ENTP, not so much the writing. The ENTP is a person outside of the box. With a match and a set of firecrackers. Who then lights each firecracker individually, throwing them into the box. Sometimes, they light more than one firecracker. Over time, the box is destroyed (of course, ENTP's lose themselves quite frequently). Then, the ENTP finds another box. Only this time instead of a square box, the box is a triangle. Then the process is repeated. Yet again. Maybe instead, they'll use dynamite. Hey, the bigger the better right? As for the INTJ, the INTJ IS the box. Or rather a man in the box (Or a box within the man?). With a complex system of "firecrackers" just waiting to be set off. All they need is the match. The match does not exist in the box...yet the box still gets blown to smithereens...time for another box. Will it happen again?
> 
> You know, I thought long and hard about this, planning out all the things I wanted to say in my head. Here's perhaps the best example I could come up with to explain the flaws of our thinking. One day, I was speaking to my ISTP friend. I was explaining to him how logistics is perhaps the most important thing in the military. My reasoning to him was, "What is a soldier without guns and ammunition. More importantly, what is a soldier without food and water. A soldier is still a human being before they are anything." Pause. Question (?). Which cognitive function did I just use? Introverted Thinking to break down the components of what makes a soldier? Or Introverted Intuition to go beyond the perceived meaning of "soldier" in order to cut to the heart of what a "soldier" really is. _A human being_. Ah. What a particularly vexing question. Most of you will probably think I'm simply rationalizing some bullshit but I go on to predict that none of you will be able to refute the logic behind my statement (HA.HA.HA.) For a soldier to be a soldier, they need guns and ammunition. But they also need food and water. Because when it comes down to things, they are not just a soldier, they are a human being. There are first a human being before they are a soldier. They were born into the world as a human being. Then the world turned them into a soldier. Again. A soldier needs guns and ammunition to be a soldier. A human being needs food and water to be a human being (at least if they want to live). A human being can be a soldier. But a soldier IS a human being. So tell me, the CHICKEN or the EGG?! The QUESTION without an ANSWER! Oho. Questions, questions. Something I feel people don't ask enough of (*cough*SJ's*cough*). Truth of the matter is, questions don't directly lead to answers. Instead, they lead to more questions. Question, question, question, ANSWER!. Question, answer, question, answer, question, answer. Which one? Perhaps both? You know what I think the secret behind the chicken and the egg is? The answers already exist. They lie out there. For the world can only work in _one _way. The universe exists as it does because that's the only way it _CAN_ exist. All that needs to be done...is for someone to ask the question. The bobble in the pond. That goes onto have a ripple effect. And so, the wheel of time goes on. Reinvented time and time again yet remained essentially the same. Untouched and indifferent to the pleas of the mortal man. Laughing at us.
> 
> ...




No more coffee for you, sir.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Vanishing Point said:


> No more coffee for you, sir.


Ha, I don't need coffee. I'm already hyperactive. Haven't you noticed? :ninja:


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## Colonel (Aug 8, 2012)

The video with the INTJ is interesting, he (the INTJ) doesn't seem very intelligent, but maybe the wine was just having a bit of an effect on him.

Anyway, the topic of this thread. The difficulty is the position you're currently in. You yourself mentioned that you're a "bastardization" of what an INTJ is supposed to be. While I think that could be a bit of an overstatement, it simply emphasizes the effect of discovering your type. For a lot of NTs, INTs especially, figuring out one's type can be sort of like a feeling of coming home, of comfortable familiarity. It doesn't even matter if you're right about your type, you're probably still going to experience this type of euphoria in some amount. This, as I said a moment ago, is simply going to be emphasized by the seeming warping of yourself. It's sort of like seeing light on the horizon after a long dark night. I know this due to person experience (to a lesser extent) and others I know who have been typed.

What does this have to do with it? It makes you excited. The thing about INTJs is that we're rarely excited enough to show it externally. I mean, really rare. And it's even rarer to be publicly visible. NTPs, on the other hand, ENTPs especially, often act more enthusiastic.

Whatever the reason, your excitement is spilling over into your writing in a very apparent way. It certainly isn't a bad thing, it just isn't classical INTJ. Food for thought.

P.S. You said you were always up to something when you were younger. What kinds of things? (this could indicate a lot)


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

@Colonel Yes, thank you for clarifying. Identifying the difficulty of my current position. The reason why I say I'm a bastardization of who I truly am is because I definitely feel that I belong to the NT temperament. However, I currently never plan for anything or ever think or look to the future by any means. I take every day as it comes, completely within the moment. But I was not always like this. Not at all by any means. The excitement and enthusiasm you guys see in my writing isn't, well, real I guess. I'm not actually getting excited and enthusiastic as I type out all that I do. Although I guess I am excited and enthusiastic about trying to figure out what my personality type is. Mainly because it's growing incredibly perplexing to me and every time I want to self identify with one type, I end up finding contradictory evidence, both within my memory and in the way I lead my life. In my actual life, I do often get pretty excited and enthusiastic but as I've said, I think it's more of a byproduct of the life I've lead over the past seven years. I changed completely as a person ever since the 7th grade, something that has been very vexing to my INFJ mother. 

Actually, when I say I was always up to something when I was younger, that's just an exaggeration. Really, I led a pretty normal childhood, mainly just doing things like playing video games, playing outside, reading, etc. I'd get bored pretty easily with a lot of things if there wasn't enough physical or mental stimulation in my environment. I recall playing a lot of mind games like stepping on all the cracks on a sidewalk, clacking my teeth everytime the car passed every other house (something of the sort, not exactly), and counting all the square panels of a ceiling, to name a few. 

One thing though that deviates from the normal childhood is that I showed a few signs of psychotic behavior. My neighbor and I would catch lizards a lot. Sometimes, I would throw them into the spinning blades of an air conditioning unit on the outside of the house. Other times I would try to drown them or even just outright kill them with a stick. This didn't happen that frequently mind you but I still wanted to throw that out there. Once, when I was probably between the ages of six and eight, I stumbled upon a nest of baby birds. Instead of taking in the nest of baby birds to show my parents, something that normal kids would do, I instead took a stick and struck them a few times. Not to death, but I still did it (something I absolutely hate about myself, nowadays I wouldn't harm a fly, I love animals). Also, there was something about cats that I guess I didn't like. With two of my neighbors cats, and one of their dogs as well, I vividly recall kicking the shit out them (LITERALLY, one time I made a cat shit its self) when I was in a room alone with them. Gah, these memories scare the shit out of me (sorry for anyone who feels disturbed aha, I know I would if I read this shit). I don't think I got any real pleasure out of hurting these animals, not on a twisted, sadistic level, I think it simply had more to do with the fact that I wanted to dominate them. What I really took pleasure in is knowing I could get away with doing it all. Which actually brings me back to what I think I meant as in "always up to something". Like, I'd always be trying to secretly get away with doing stuff. Coming up with these "ultra, secretive, master" plans. The plan would've succeeded if I got away with something and no one found out what I did. Pretty imaginative.

In the links provided by Vanishing Point, titled "The Development of ENTP Children" and "The Development of INTJ Children", although there are parts of the ENTP I relate with, overall, I relate much, much more to the INTJ. In fact it doesn't even remain a question to me anymore whether or not I'm Extraverted or Introverted. Definitely Introverted. Although the fact that my mind is hyperactive probably skews things a bit. Now my only debate is whether I'm INTJ or INTP. I'm going to email these "Development of Children" threads for the INTJ and INTP to my mother and have her determine which type I am.


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## Joseph (Jun 20, 2012)

You definitely seem like an XNXP to me. Not sure what judging function you work with, but I can feel the Ne in your posts.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Joseph said:


> You definitely seem like an XNXP to me. Not sure what judging function you work with, but I can feel the Ne in your posts.


If such is the case, INTP is most likely. Whether or not I'm a T or an F is not a question. I bet the reason you may question if I am a T or an F is because of a few things I say, such as in my last post, where I apologized for my recollection of my psychotic childhood behaviors. Truthfully, I wouldn't actually be disturbed if someone else said the same thing, it's very rare for me to be offended or disturbed at all. I don't give two shits if you're offended, that's your problem, not mine. Besides, if I were truly an F, would I be so open about it? Doubt it. Not to mention the psychotic behaviors themself would suggest I'm not an F, although of course they're not normal behavior and thus it's illogical to correlate them with whether or not I'm a T or an F anyways.

Also, whether or not I'm an E or an I is not a question either. I've never had many friends, frequently considered as being quiet and unexpressive when I was younger (well more so the former than the latter). Even now, I'm still very shy, normally waiting for people to come to me, and even then being pretty slow to open up. Not that I'm private, I'm very open actually, only for the most part I don't care enough to express my views, having to further deal with more unwanted socializing about things that don't interest me. Also, I recall in my early days of highschool, trying to be more talkative and outgoing. Almost everyday, I'd come home feeling completely drained. Not only that, I'd also feel like a total hypocrite. I would often laugh at people's attempts to be funny, even though for the most part I usually thought what people said were incredibly stupid and annoying. Yet, over time I suppose it's become somewhat apart of my personality now. Ha, in my high school psychology teacher's class, everyone was instructed to pick a few words that described them. I'm pretty sure everyone had to share the one word that people thought described them the most. The one word I chose to use was...amused. Something that highly surprised him. Even now, I'm not quite sure why I chose to use that word. Yet, I still think it highly fits my personality. I laugh at just about everything, finding amusement in a lot of things. 

Something my INTJ friend once said to me was "God dammit Kenny, I do that so often with you. Someone will make a joke, and you'll laugh. Then, moments later, it dawns on me that you're laughing at them, not with them." Highly accurate in my opinion. Which is incredibly strange now that I think about it...when I was younger I often had a problem with wondering if people were actually laughing at my jokes or at me. Something which has caused a lot of anxiety in my life. I'd make a joke, say it, people would laugh. Normally I thought I was some fucking clever, ingenious bastard until it would hit me the possibilty that they could be laughing at me instead. Normally, this would result in a careful review of everything that was said prior to and after the joke. A lot of the time, I'd still be unsure and would have to resort to some either direct or indirect methods of evaluating myself. With questions posed towards people.

Looks like this is becoming pointless. INTP is highly likely. 

So that's how I've become TheLaughingMan. HAHAHA.


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## Joseph (Jun 20, 2012)

Nah dude, we aren't authorities on what type you are. If you feel like your function order is Ni-Te-Fi-Se, roll with INTJ. I don't always like taking explanations or reasoning from others, it feels dogmatic and steers us away from the inherent truth within each of our hearts. 

(You write such long winded speeches that I would guess ENXP now, though).


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Whenever I take the prescription drugs Adderall or Vyvanse (psychostimulants), I experience an amazing calm once they start to take effect. Normally, when I try to verbally articulate my thoughts, I don't usually complete my sentences fluidly, doing a lot of stopping and starting. However, when I'm on Adderall or Vyvanse, everything in my mind becomes very clear. Where I'd usually have trouble articulating my thoughts, I can say what I wish with no trouble at all. Speaking with a fluidity and command of the English language that I could never hope to achieve normally. Now, whether I have ADD/ADHD, I truly can't say. I've never really experienced too many problems associated with children who are ADD/ADHD, at least not to the same degree. I'd actually say my focus can be pretty intense. 

I've always had a problem sleeping. Normally, I just can't get my mind to go to rest. I usually want to just think as a result. When I try to let my mind shut down, I become extremely hyper-aware of my bodily processes, such as my heart beat and my breathing. With my breathing, it no longer becomes an unconcious process. I actually have to think about breathing. It's really fucking annoying, so I just think some more. A lot of the time I try to focus my mind on mindless things, such as repetitive portions of songs, things that happened throughout my day, etc. It's a pretty vicious cycle. It normally takes me anywhere between thirty minutes to several hours to get to sleep. So what I'm saying is (this just came to me) is maybe there lies a problem with my unconcious and concious mind. The more and more things that make way into my concious, the more and more things I'd like to think about. I don't think of these ideas, they just pop into my head. Like I'm feeding myself information or something. It's really bizarre. Kind of makes me want to go back to thinking I'm INTJ, only extremely hyperactive. But who the hell knows, the mystery ensues.

Explanations and reasoning from others is precisely what I want. That's why I made this thread. I'll accept anyone's attempt to try to explain why they think I'm whatever type. As long as their logical and make sense to me. The fact that I write such long winded speeches is not a reasonable enough explanation to me to make me think I'm ENTP. I need confirmation on this, it's driving me bat shit. I'm also quite curious as to why you think I may be F. Is there really such apparent emotion in my writing? Funny, because I experience no emotion while I type, in fact, it's very accurate to say that I'm very out of tune with my emotions. Sometimes I feel them, but it's like they're coming from some far off place. Perhaps a result of burying them so frequently.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

You know what. I think I finally understand. My MBTI type is...ENFP! One quite fucked up one I might add. You know what my theory that I wrote to my psychology teacher was about? REPRESSED EMOTIONS. One night, when I was wired on Vyvanse, I thought out this logical explanation as to why I think people are ADD/ADHD/Bipolar. The whole theory was based on repressed emotions. Yet, it would seem that really, it was just me. All along. I've been repressing my emotions for so long, it's like I don't even have them anymore. When they do leak out though, it's pretty intense. Anytime I actually get emotional, they're to the extreme. Probably why I continue to bury them to this day. I almost never get truly emotional. At least I don't actually feel them. It's like I'm hollowed out. But it's weird...there's still so much contradictory evidence that would suggest that I'm not ENFP. My mother said I was always quiet when I was younger, never really "there", always in "La-La land". Which I agree to an extent. Yet, ENFP still rings a bell to me.


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## Longhair (Feb 17, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> You know what. I think I finally understand. My MBTI type is...ENFP! One quite fucked up one I might add. You know what my theory that I wrote to my psychology teacher was about? REPRESSED EMOTIONS. One night, when I was wired on Vyvanse, I thought out this logical explanation as to why I think people are ADD/ADHD/Bipolar. The whole theory was based on repressed emotions. Yet, it would seem that really, it was just me. All along. I've been repressing my emotions for so long, it's like I don't even have them anymore. When they do leak out though, it's pretty intense. Anytime I actually get emotional, they're to the extreme. Probably why I continue to bury them to this day. I almost never get truly emotional. At least I don't actually feel them. It's like I'm hollowed out. But it's weird...there's still so much contradictory evidence that would suggest that I'm not ENFP. My mother said I was always quiet when I was younger, never really "there", always in "La-La land". Which I agree to an extent. Yet, ENFP still rings a bell to me.


This sounds like lower-order feeling. Some INTP descriptions state how the inferior Fe users use of feeling is 'all-or-nothing', much like you described. And I, personally as an IxTP; a Ti dom, rarely have a strong sense of how I feel about things. Much as if I didn't have any real sense of self or personal value based opinion. That said, you do seem more like an Ne dom than a Ti dom to me.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> Yes, I have looked into Introverted Thinking. Although I believe it is a function that I think I am particularly adept in, I don't believe it is a function that comes naturally to me. There are many aspects of the ISTP type as a whole that I don't relate with. However, allow me to provide a questionnaire taken from anonymousL's thread.
> 
> *1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?
> (ESTP/ISTP)
> ...




What happened to make you denounce the existence of god and become a nihilist? 



> I suppose what I yearn for in life is to seek and understand the world around me, recognizing the universal truths of the world.


How do you determine if/that something is a universal truth?



> Consequentially, I also seek to experience as much as I can, to observe and take in as much information as possible, and apply it to the world to see if it all fits. Knowledge is power but experience is what ultimately causes me to believe whether or not the knowledge I gain is true or not. As to the why? Not quite sure.


If 'why' alone as a question does not work, then perhaps the following will be easier:

What about experience allows you to understand whether your knowledge is true or not? How do you process your experience?



> I suppose it has to do with this inner feeling I have that the world isn't exactly as it seems. In fact, when I was younger, I often had this strange sensation, bordering on phenomenon, where I felt completely detached to the world. I often pondered my existence, finding it incredibly strange. Do I really exist? In retrospect, perhaps this is why I was drawn to physical activities, acting freely on my impulses. I needed to confirm that I was indeed alive, that I really do exist in this world. Or perhaps I was simply trying to get my mind off things by participating in external activities. Either is reasonable to me.


Why were you drawn to confirm that you existed? 

*



3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.

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*


> Hmm this is also a rather hard question for me to answer. It has been quite a long time where I've actually felt at my finest. I suppose I was at my finest prior to the seventh grade, before I denounced the existence of god and became a nihilist. I feel this way because prior to this time, I had a natural drive to succeed, to do the best I could, to be a perfectionist. I often went to great lengths in my work, although most of it simply came naturally to me. Ambition was at the core of my character, however at some point, I ceased to care anymore. Nothing mattered to me. The whole world could burn in hell. I lost sight of my future, lost all hope, and naturally this was particularly devastating to me. In fact, I still hold scars to this day because of this.


So, I have to ask again. It seems worthy of exploration, this idea that losing your faith caused you to become less than your finest - it changed your entire internal experience. Why/how did it do this? Why did losing your faith matter to you?

*



4) What makes you feel inferior?

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*


> When I have trouble verbally articulating my thoughts and fail to reach a level of understanding with an individual, which normally results in them thinking I'm some kind of moron. Also, being wrong about something, especially about a particular subject that I have special interest in. Another thing is when people don't take me seriously, disregarding my logic.


Suggestive of inferior Thinking, actually. At this point I think cognitive introversion is likely for you, and it looks like Fi/Te.

*



5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)

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*


> I suppose first and foremost, I weigh out the pros and cons. Secondly, I refer to my own personal principles and determine whether or not my decision is right or wrong based on how I feel about it accordingly. People don't generally come to my mind when making decisions.


Looks very much an Fi/Te style approach.

*



6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?

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*


> Normally my emphasis lies in the end product. I don't really care what is done in order to accomplish the task, so long as I feel the project achieves the goal I desire. Preferably, yes, I'd like to have control of the outcome however if the outcome is out of my hands and I still deem the outcome to be a success, it doesn't bother me. Although I'm sure I would nitpick specific details, finding ways to improve the outcome, in the end, whatever works I say.


How do you determine what goal you desire?
*



7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?

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*


> A time I had a lot of fun was actually when I was under the influence of the prescription drug Vyvanse. My ability to process information became very sharp, which I think, allowed me to create a particular theory about ADHD/Bipolar disorder, to which I showed my high school psychology teacher. Although there was definitely some disagreement, my psychology teacher went on to agree with much of what I said, something I found very surprising, for he was a fairly close minded person. Despite his agreement, I went on to post this theory on psychcentral.com, where I met considerable backlash from its members. In the end, I was able to surmise that although my logic in the theory was superb, the theory held no empirical evidence to back it up, as well as the fact that the entire theory was too general and based on a false premise. Also, in a series of emails I exchanged with my psychology teacher, the subjects being whether or not the universe is subjective and objective, if god exists, and how to determine what right and wrong is, I managed to logically provide what my view on the world was. A subjective world. Unfortunately, my psychology teacher managed to thwart me, stating that the world is actually objective. Despite me feeling that my logic was sound, I could not disregard my psychology teacher's words and ultimately came to accept much of what he said.


Overall it sounds like experiences with inferior Thinking, yet again. You even found a subjective world to be logical - perhaps more evidence for an introverted type - but your teacher pushed you toward the conclusion that the world is objective..likely, with thinking. I'd be interested to see the exchange, as it would bring a lot to bear about how you think.

*



8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)

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*


> Naturally, I tend to theorize. However, if I fail to grasp the underlying principles of a concept, I generally require a hands on approach.


For the answer to be meaningful, I'd have to have some background about how you theorize, what kind of principles you grasp, and what a 'hands-on approach' does for you. Tempted to say dominant judging, with auxiliary perception, because of the order of preference.

*



9) How organized do you think of yourself as?

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*


> At the moment, I am a fairly disorganized person, frequently losing things. However, as I have previously stated, I used to be very organized, often being anal about it. Considering I've been burnt out for such a long time, I ceased to care about organizing things, although at times, I do like to organize my personal possessions. For the most part though, I'm simply too lazy to do it anymore.


Not necessarily meaningful either. But what would be interesting to find out is - how do you organize? What takes precedence? What is your system?

*



10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?

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*


> I try to understand the principles behind new ideas first, then I solidify my judgments by looking for information that supports it.


Again, I'd have to know how you're doing it, though it vaguely suggests judging -> perception.

*



11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?

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*


> Definitely that I follow what I believe in and being myself. I think that harmony must first be achieved within one self before extending it to others.


Strong Fi, by the looks of things.
*



12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?

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*


> It depends on what I am talking about. If I am simply conversing with a friend about non-intellectual things, I generally tend to speak before thinking, just saying whatever comes to mind.


What are non-intellectual things? Can you provide examples?



> However, if I am speaking about things that actually require me to think in order to articulate precisely what I am thinking, I will think before speaking. Preferably, I enjoy one-on-one conversations however group discussions can be invigorating to me, so long as everyone is on the same page. In a group discussion however, I generally remain on the sidelines, not as the center of attention, normally chiming in when I feel I have something cool, funny, or important to say.


I just see a lot of categories here.. ways for you to classify your actions. You change in different situations. 

What makes it important to you that everyone be on the same page in a group discussion?

*



13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speak more than words?

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*


> Again, depends on the situation. I usually find it much more exciting to jump right into action. Almost to the point of liberation. Yet a lot of the time, I like to know where I am jumping before leaping.


So which do you do more?



> Actions speak louder then words because actions yield an immediate result and I believe reveals more about a person then whatever words they speak. Yet, sometimes, words can achieve much more than what actions can, often being subtle, and unbeknownst to others. In other words, actions speak for themselves while words require some deciphering in order to truly understand the impact they hold.


How do you judge the immediate result of an action, to figure out a person?

The reinterpretation looks like an attempt to make your thought process objective, and it seems Te-style.

*



14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?

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*


> Fortunately we are currently living in the year of 2012 where DVR exists. I would probably just end up giving in to my friends and record the show, watching it later. If this wasn't possible though, I'd probably much rather watch the show then have a night out with my friends. Although, I don't see why both can't be achieved hehe.
> 
> *15) How do you act when you're stressed out?
> *I usually tend to pent up my emotions and try to figure out exactly what is making me angry. I try to logically explain away my anger. Normally, I end up becoming very hostile towards people, especially those I perceive to be the cause of my anger, often lashing out at them with strong emotional outbursts. I start to get angry with anyone and everything within my general vicinity.


Hang on here.. I think you are rationalizing your feelings. More evidence for that "F > T" theory of mine, especially if you're still acting your emotions out after you've reasoned them out.



> I criticize everything about my surroundings. One time at my mother's house, during one of these stressed out phases, I verbally assaulted her about how the pillows in the house were getting old and disgusting. Also, another example, as I was trying to be prescribed with Vyvanse by my psychiatrist, my mother went on to tell him that I had smoked spice within the last month. At the time, I was supposed to be clean of all drugs. On that day, where I was supposed to be prescribed with Vyvanse, my mother had "betrayed" me by telling him the truth. I ended up having to wait another month. I FLIPPED. When we got in the car, I suddenly raged at my mother, asking her why she had told the psychiatrist what she did. My mother would not provide me with what I deemed to be a feasible answer. I then repeatedly screamed at my mother "ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!", repeatably, at the top of my lungs. This was perhaps the most emotionally distressing point in my life. I've never lost my composure more than I did on that day.


Some kind of extraverted inferior seems likely. If you're 'criticizing everything about your surroundings', it tells me it's probably Judging.

What kind of answer from your mother, in that moment, would you have deemed 'feasible'?

*



16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?

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*


> When people are overly concerned with their image and what other people think of them.
> When people try to appear as if they know what they're talking about but in reality they have no idea what they're saying.
> When people try to express genuine concern for another even though they really don't care.
> When people are too stubborn to listen to reason or won't even look at the facts.
> ...


It's still suggestive of Fi/Te.

My question about every one of these is, of course, why. The reasoning is important.

*



17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?

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*


> The meaning of life, metaphysics, philosophy, personal opinions and values, real life experiences, other interests I hold


Fi suggestive, yet again. I'd hypothesize secondary intuition, Ne/Si seems apparent to me from other questions so far.

*



18) What kind of things do you pay the least attention to in your life?

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*


> Tough question but I think I pay the least attention to other people's feelings as well as my own at times. These are both areas in my life that I frequently neglect on a daily basis.


What about your own feelings don't you pay attention to? How does this manifest?

*



19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? What would your friends never say about your personality?

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*


> My friends are very skeptical of me. They often don't take much of what I say seriously, although I admit I think they have sufficient reason to do so at times. Sometimes, they think I'm really smart, although more often then not, they think I am a moron. Most of this opinion stems however, not from believing I hold a real lack of intelligence, but rather a tendency to enact on ideas that are unorthodox. Also, I frequently give in to certain impulses that are completely random at times. What can I say, I'm a curious guy. Most of my friends are Js. Unfortunately for me, I live very much like a P at the moment. I frequently clash with my F friends, who call me a fool, but I get along very well with my T friends, who often appreciate my ability to logically figure out problems. I must admit all of this is totally based on what I think my friends think. I honestly don't really know if they really think this way of me.


Do you categorize your friends like this, habitually? ..And if so, why?

*



20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing?

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*


> The first thing that comes to my mind is to travel. Out of the country.


Okay, so I guess my answer became apparent over the course of the thread. At the moment, I would consider INFP over INTJ for your type, based on what I've seen - a lot of evidence for Fi/Te, some possible for Ne/Si, not much for Ni/Se that I have noticed, and I think dominant subjectivity may fit your mentality fairly..could be wrong on that point, but preliminarily.

I'm interested in the answers to my questions, though, if you care to indulge me. It's your reasoning that will make your type clear, not mine.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

@Probably Not, I thank you for providing me with questions. I'll be glad to answer them, however, at the moment I think it is far more pressing to inform everyone of an incredibly dark and disturbing realization I've made. It would seem that I have a fair amount of psychological disorders. Specifically, dissiociative disorders. Emotional Detachment seems to be one of them (The harming, torturing, and killing of animals in my childhood). Avoidant Personality Disorder also seems to be one (something I figured out months previously, actually). I'm not sure about these last two however. Borderline Personality Disorder could be a possibility although I can't say. Most interesting to me is Dissociative Personality Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder). This could be a very real possibility. You see, although I cannot say which MBTI archetype I was born into this world with, my mother is a very controlling and dominating individual. No, she is not evil, no I was never sexually abused, no I was never physically abused (although I did get belted every once in awhile). However, what I can quite honestly say I was emotionally abused, although the severity of the abuse isn't what most people would call significant. Only problem is, I frequently repressed my emotions so often, I speculate that in order to handle this, I may very well have created several identities. I remember in my childhood, often trying to assume the identities (acting like them, dressing like them, but not presenting myself as them to others) of Anime characters. 

Seemingly unrelated, but I'd like to include two stories. One is of a time when I was hanging out with my ENTJ friend. We had picked up a stripper that he had met at a party the previous weekend. Prior to picking her up, I drank a fair amount of beer in a fairly short amount of time (maybe seven beers in an hour and half to two, myself being roughly 5'10, 150 pounds). Needless to say, I was quite intoxicated. The last memory I had was of my ENTJ friend, I, and the stripper being in his hot tub. I woke up the next morning in the guest bedroom. I asked my ENTJ friend what had happened. He told me that I had smacked the stripper's ass as she got into the hot tub. I have absolutely no recollection of this. Later, I talked to the stripper, who told me that all I did was sit there and stare at her after she said "WHAT THE FUCK?!". Although I do not have memory of slapping her ass, I do recall being in the hot tub, after I had apparently slapped her ass, and her saying "if you do that to my friend she'd kill you" (the stripper's friend was supposed to come with her, but she ended up going home instead). On the surface, this may just seem to be me being extremely intoxicated, but I think there's more to this. I think I lost control of myself. Someone completely different took control, as evidenced by me slapping her ass (something I wouldn't do even if I was really drunk) and the fact that all I did was stare at her. Not even responding. That's not normal, even for drunk behavior. 

Another story is of a time when I was under the influence of Molly (MDMA). I was conversing with my ENTJ friend, whose probably one of my best friend's, who told me of a sixteen year old kid he had a discrepancy with. He said he was going to kick this kid's ass. I had nothing against this kid, in fact, I actually greeted him quite warmly when I met him, remembering him from elementary school. A few minutes after greeting this kid, I was told by my ENTJ friend that "that was the kid whose ass I want to kick". I had no reason to be hostile towards him, other than the fact that my ENTJ friend had a problem with him. Later, I found this kid at the stairs of the house we were in and I went on to strike up a conversation with him. I was pretty friendly towards him. However, the kid went on to tell me that I looked EXTREMELY hostile. Something which is strange (remember I was under the influence of MDMA...it's practically impossible to be hostile towards anyone on this drug). I go on to speculate that although conciously, I really was being friendly towards him, unconciously, I wanted to kick this kid's ass because of the issue my ENTJ friend had with him. My face betrayed me. Most likely I really was hostile towards him, although not conciously aware of it. 

Of course, the fact I was under the influence of drugs (alcohol and MDMA) probably changes the validity of the logic behind my statements, I think they still hold value. Perhaps by answering your questions I can further clarify some things.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Damn, I wish I had a video camera, I think it'd be SO much easier to answer all these questions and provide details about myself. Anyways, I'm too lazy to answer these questions at the moment, but here's the e-mails I sent to my psychology teacher. I guess the subject matter was different, my memory had failed me, but here they are:
Mr. Anonymous, how do we determine what is right or wrong? WELL,MORALITY (MORAL RIGHT) IS BASED ON LIFE, LIBERTY AND PROPERTY. VIOLATE ANY OF THOSE THINGS AND YOU ARE WRONG. WRONG AND RIGHT IS ALSO BASED ON FACTS AND HISTORY AND SCIENCE ETC…I'm not asking merely to deconstruct but rather just to know whether or not there is an actual psychological answer to this question. YES…THERE IS DIFINITIVE RIGHTS AND WRONGS…2 APPLES PLUS 2 APPLES EQUALS 4 APPLES…FOREVER IT IS CORRECT.
Of course, I don't expect there to be a definitive answer, WELL THERE IS AND YOU JUST GOT IT
since the topic is widely debated anyhow and that numerous answers exist.

This is quite the mental machete Mr. Anonymous, however, I only wish it weren't so dull. Allow me to whet it.

Perhaps there are definitive rights and wrongs, perhaps 2+2=4, but the one thing that remains true is that, they only remain true so far as it is made known to a select individual or group. NO WHO ELSE ALIENS…EVEN TO THEM PHYSICS IS PHYSICS 
Standing nude on a beach may be considered immoral to one individual however to another it may not. MORALITY = PROPERTY RIGHTS AND ONES PROPERTY RIGHTS ONLY EXTENDS AS FAR AS ANOTHERS . HERE THE LAW COMES IN AND REFEREES THE DISPUTE
The idea that standing nude on a beach is immoral must first be made aware to an individual or group before it is actually considered immoral. Simple cause and effect. Of course, this is mere common sense, since obviously an idea must first be conceived before judgment can be placed upon it.NO THE MORAL JUDGEMENT IS PRE-EXISTING IN NATURAL LAW
However, I pose the example because in my opinion, morality is "relational"* before it is objective and then subjective according to the beliefs, values, and judgments of an individual. SORRY THIS IS JUST JUSTIFYING BY DECONSTRUCTING …DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE YOU AND YOU MIND TTRADSCENDS NATURAL LAW???
The thing about objective morality is that, although it clearly states that "propositions are made true by objective features of the world, independent of subjective opinion"*, it fails to recognize the fact that the propositions in question had to have arisen as a result of human thought and rationalization, regardless of how independent the propositions were before they were brought to question.AGAIN NATURAL LAW
A person can remain ignorant throughout the majority of his or her life and find that everything is subjective to his or her own thoughts. Subjective morality exists IT MAY EXIST BUT IT IS NOT MORALITY IT IS A PERSONS MORAL RELITIVITY
simply because we still remain ignorant of our surroundings. "2+2=4 is objective because the relations are logically defined, and are not discovered as empirical principles."* 2 apples plus 2 apples equals 4 apples may remain forever correct however the very idea of 2+2=4 still had to be conceptualized before proven correct. NOT CONCEPTUALIZED, REALIZED…IT ALREADY EXISTED IN NATURAL LAW
When this is applied to morality, we can say that the _subjective_ nature of morality gave rise to anything _objective_ at all. AGAIN NO WAY JOSE
For instance, many ancient rituals of sacrifice have existed throughout history, where some civilizations sacrificed many lives in order to produce a desirable effect, such as the rise of the sun. IT DID NOT MAKE IT MORAL
Today, we find such acts morally repugnant because of the scientific knowledge we now have stating that such irrational behavior could not possibly be justified. However, back in ancient times, because we had to satisfy a need(the rise of the sun) and the means for such a result were unknown, we resorted to drastic measures. IT DID NOT MAKE IT MORAL OR RIGHT OR JUST…IT WAS JUST THE BEHAVIOR OF HUMANS WHO DON’T DETERMINE MORALITY
Do not misunderstand me; I am not saying that the means were justified because they were ignorant, however, I am saying that because of their ignorance, their actions were morally _subjective_ to the beliefs of their time, regardless of what may be _objectively_ known now. 
Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you think however I do not think morality is completely objective. I agree that there are definitive rights and wrongs in the world however, not all of morality can be objectively viewed. YES IT CAN, IF IT CANT IT IS NOT MORALITY…WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE HOPING FOR SO YOU CAN SAY THERE IS NO MORALITY AND THUS ANYTHING GOES…AGAIN MORAL RELITIVITY IS WHAT YOU ARE SPEAKING OF…DANGEROUS SELF RIGHTOUS STUFF…
THERE IS A WAY OF THE UNIVERSE, THAT WAY IS MORAL, COUNTERING IT IS NOT, OR IS THE RESULT OF MEN WHO BELIEVE THEY ARE BIGGER THAN THE UNIVERSE…IT NEVER WORKS OUT WELL WHEN THIS HAPPENS….
Forgive me if I may seem confusing since in all honesty I don't feel as if I conveyed my thoughts properly as well as the fact that they seem somewhat contradictory as I look over them now. However, I will leave you to judge and respond accordingly.
*Words either taken from another website verbatim or used as a result of reading them OK CITATION = GOOD MAN



You're right. I now understand that morality, which _can_ besubjected to the thoughts of an individual, is objective. I allowed myself to be confused with morality and moral judgment, which _is_ subjective. Simply because humans are capable of judging the world around them, with or without knowledge, does not necessarily mean that the nature of the world, which is dictated by natural law, is subjective on its own. However, considering that, simply put, because we are human, and not one with the universe, and that we exist on our own as a part of the universe, we are forced to subject the universe to our minds. Again, it is only common sense. We are human. We are not the universe. In truth, I was merely confused as to the meaning of morality and moral judgment. You asked if I honestly believed that we are capable of transcending beyond natural law. Although I believed in this before your response, the point that I was trying to make was misconstrued due to my confusion of definition. What I believed in was the fact that, because humans are indeed, not only physically and mentally incapable of transcending beyond the laws of nature, we are forced to make moral judgments which are subjective because we are human and at the mercy of our own inability to truly "know". What I mean by "know" is that, although reality may be objective, it is not possible to really prove it because we are all at the mercy of causality. So in light of these "realizations", I'd still like to pose the original question, how do we determine what is right and wrong? How do we know what is right and wrong? What is right and wrong? What is natural law? If natural law is so and so, than how do humans know when they have violated that law? 

You know, I always find it funny when people ask "How the hell can humans be so damn evil? All I want is to live a happy life, with my wife, children, and friends, but someone out there just has to come along and shit on my parade. It happens every day. Somewhere, a baby is being cradled in the arms of a loving mother. Somewhere else, a baby is being trampled to death under the iron shod boots of some zealous nut. I just don't get it." Excuse me if I sound cynical and unsympathetic, but I really want to slap people like this in the face. Not because they want to live a happy life but because they don't know why humans are capable of evil. In my opinion the reason is simple. It is merely because we _can_. Occam's Razor.

This shit is pretty meh, mainly because this was just the brunt of what was talked about, everything else was in person. But yeah there you go. Oh, and I'd like to add that MPD for me is unlikely. I do definitely have emotional detachment and avoidant personality disorder (maybe not anymore though, definitely existed when I was younger). Maybe other things too but yeah, that's it for now.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

INTJ, 100%, without a doubt in my mind. Yes, I know I've changed my type many a time throughout this thread. However, I'd like to note how I always come back to INTJ and I've been sticking with it. The reason is because I AM an INTJ. This whole time my Ni has been unconciously leading me, providing me with all the necessary steps I needed to take to arrive to this conclusion. So here's the reason why I'm INTJ. Let's go back to my dream. This was Ni speaking to me. I think I've figured out exactly what the dream meant.

*THE BALCONY TO THE MANSION: This is a symbolic representation of myself. I stand on the balcony of the mansion, observing the crowd (a party I think) searching, scanning, until I spot the girl. I have a connection with the girl. Though I have a connection, I do not smile, wave, or interact any further with the girl. You see, in real life, I LOOKED DOWN ON THE GIRL (hence the balcony). I would insult her, call her stupid, yet she would still show me signs of affection, such as "pretending" to be my girlfriend, holding my hand, showing affection (although like I said before, not sure if she was really being affectionate towards me).
THE CROWD: This is a symbolic representation of my life. As I stand on the balcony of the mansion (me observing my life) I'm searching for something. It takes me awhile to find it. That something is the girl. 
THE GIRL: MY EMOTIONS! As I stand on the balcony of my mansion (ME), observing the crowd, searching, I finally spot the girl. In real life, I've often withdrawn back into myself instead of actually dealing with my emotions (I think I went back into the mansion after I spotted the girl; REPRESSION OF EMOTIONS). Later on in the dream, I go down into the crowd of people, the "party", and finally embrace the girl. I got back in touch with my emotions. So you see, this entire time, I've been searching for my emotions. I've been looking down on them for the longest time. Distancing myself. I stay within the comfort of my own mansion, yet, I have to join the crowd in order to reach my emotions.

When I woke up, the song "Lucky Ass Bitch" by Mac Miller started playing. Actually, I'm starting to think that whatever song I wake up to in the morning is Ni speaking to me (this happens a lot actually, not the whole dreaming anyways, but the fact that a song usually starts playing when I wake up in the morning.) This was Ni's way of saying "Dude, you're fucked up. You need to get back in touch with your emotions man." Lucky Ass Bitch was a pretty recent song I started listening to around the time the dream happened so Ni probably just used that song to give me a hint, especially since it's pretty straightforward. Although I'm still confused as to how I get back in touch with my emotions. I speculate that the answer is by becoming emotionally attached to a female (something I've never been able to do). Probably because psychologically I've always been scared of girls. Most likely due to my Mother's emotional abuse I experienced as a child. Actually, I think the dream was kind of like my own version of The Great Gatsby (The party scene...well I don't know, maybe not, but whatever, aha!)

I've been looking more into people's experiences with Ni and I strongly relate. In fact, when I was younger, I often had strong feelings of De Ja Vu. It was like, I'd learn something new, then the next day, whatever I learned WOULD SHOW UP AGAIN. Like, I'd learn some new idea or piece of information, then the next day in school, we'd start talking about it. My god how incredibly bizarre this was, I would often tell people of this, and they'd think I was a moron. So yeah, definitely think I'm 100% INTJ. (INFJ may also be a possibility, but I don't think so, I was raised as a child by two feelers, I think that just kind of aided me)

Laughing is a symbol of happiness to me. Nowadays, I hardly ever genuinely laugh (that is, where it actually just comes out). Most of the time I have to think if something is funny and then laugh about it if I think it is. It's rare for me to just laugh, without putting any thought into it. I'm The Laughing Man bitches!*


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## At0m05 (Jun 14, 2012)

dude your all over the place on this.. Why dont you try not manipulating the results (answer truthfully)? intj and estp's are COMPLETELY different. - i mean, even if you do know what the questions are going for (introverted or extraverted, for ex.) then how is it not that much easier to get accurate results?


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