# Women are such bitches!



## Eska (Aug 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> I was talking about /r/theredpill


No.

What is a "redpiller" then? Why do I come off as as "redpiller"? Does it have to do with the current topic?



strayfire said:


> Think about the position and voice that having a picture like that influences how that statement is interpretted.
> 
> These are people who are far more fit than the average person. Yes, it's advice, but it's unwelcome advice from someone clearly superior (and most people don't like that).
> 
> ...


Of course there are multiple ways of interpreting it, I pointed out how I personally interpreted it and how it can be interpreted.

The inspiration depends on how an individual relates to the actual message being transmitted.


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## OberonHuxley (Jun 2, 2013)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> I don't know about everyone else, but we all know what you want bae. :ninja:



Oh...La....La.....you know me so well.

I would chose either b or c because I know men are bitches too.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

strayfire said:


> At least in certain branches academic feminism there has been a push to revalue feminine qualities positively.
> 
> For example, ecofeminism revolves around the idea that masculine atittudes to nature such as man's "dominion over nature" to be part of the problem in contemporary environmental politics. Rather they suggest adopting feminine attitudes like reciprocity, nurturing and cooperation into the treatment of nature; to nuture nature so to speak.
> 
> ...


I like and agree with your post except for the parts I made small and clarified in red. I wanted to click the Thank button, but couldn't bring myself to Thank something that said being thin was always a good goal for everyone, or that society's beauty ideals had size-ism as an upside rather than as one of the main parts that needs to be challenged fiercely. 



devoid said:


> I don't find it not normal. I find it not moral.
> 
> You can do anything you like. It's a free country. But I'm also free to call you a misogynistic asshole. This is a moral debate, not a "what is possible to do in the realm of everything?" debate.


This is probably my favorite post in the whole thread so far. 



devoid said:


> A person's body is their only true home. It is where their soul resides, and it is the reflection of their personal identity. It is the first thing people see, and often the part of you they notice the most. 90% of what we perceive when we talk to someone comes from their body language. In many religions, therefore, the body is considered sacred - a temple in the self.
> 
> When you take a body and assess its value in any way, that assessment of value is going to be projected onto the person's psyche. Because we see our body as a part of ourselves. Therefore if my body is devalued, I feel devalued. When you compare the value of one body to the value of another body, you are essentially comparing the worth of two people based on physical appearance. Even though that is (hopefully) not what you intended to communicate, it is the psychological response to such a statement. Every human being will have this psychological response, because it is natural to have.
> 
> ...


Even though I do not view my body as part of the self, I think you stated your position very well. Another nice post.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

OberonHuxley said:


> Oh...La....La.....you know me so well.
> 
> I would chose either b or c because I know men are bitches too.


:ninja:


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## Mr.Blayz (Nov 20, 2012)

devoid said:


> @_Mr.Blayz_
> I'm sorry you had such a shit experience. *hugs* I know exactly what you mean about women having double standards. It's the reason I didn't associate myself with the Feminism movement for a long time - because I want to make it clear to people that I'm not one of those women who just loves to hate on men. I do think that both sides have been victimized by gender discrimination. And I know what you mean about divorce and custody, and people judging men for defending themselves. These are all issues which are equally important to fix, and I sincerely hope they get more public attention.


sadly thats not going to happen because most people won't fricken listen, the difference now is that this is a thread and its just there where as if i try to talk to a feminist they cut me off, call me a sexist, and disregard me as a stupid male chauvinist pig. Nobody gives a fuck about the struggles guys go through and if there was a group that advocated the disadvantages of being a guy it would disregarded the same way, but thank you for listening that doesnt happen often


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Mr.Blayz said:


> sadly thats not going to happen because most people won't fricken listen, the difference now is that this is a thread and its just there where as if i try to talk to a feminist they cut me off, call me a sexist, and disregard me as a stupid male chauvinist pig. Nobody gives a fuck about the struggles guys go through and if there was a group that advocated the disadvantages of being a guy it would disregarded the same way, but thank you for listening that doesnt happen often


There is a Men's Rights group, but it unfortunately has a very bad reputation, because as you can imagine a lot of very chauvinistic guys became members. It was originally for the purpose of breaking down the male gender stereotype - how we expect men to "be a man" and be tough, take all the responsibility upon themselves, be the primary bread winner, etc. even in our modern society. But what it dissolved into was a lot of men blaming women for a lack of jobs, trying to "emasculate" men, and the disruption of the traditional family unit. So it became less about social change and more about a return to conservative values.

I think that if you look hard enough, you will find people out there who think like you do. It's hard. I once took a class on gender, and the professor asked, "Who do you think is repressed more in society, men or women?" I was the only one who said men. My classmates gasped and asked, "How could you say that?" I said, "Women can wear pants in public, but men still can't wear dresses."

I think in some ways the Feminism movement does help to combat that. A lot of the Feminists I know are supportive of helping break the male stereotypes as well. But it's hard to notice them when we have such a vocal group of people who are eager to blame men for everything.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Cinnamon83 said:


> I would say I agree with this sentiment in regards to if its being directed at radical extremes of either direction of radical MRAs or radical Feminists. But where I call into question the sentiment is when its proposed then any hypothetical issue on a moderate level is suggested to just be a figment of the imagination as if it does not exist like ENTP unicorns or something. I really do not lean towards the radical extremes. I happen to be a fence sitter that crawls back and forth. And that is why I say that I think both genders do have problems that are not figments of imaginations. Radicals just tend not to solve anything when they embody the crap out of hostility and bitterness. I get the sentiment that if everyone resolved their issue there would be no issue. But there still would be policy issues for both genders and thats where the battles come into play the part where fruit loops identify and embody based on personal hostilities is just distracting.





devoid said:


> I have solid self-esteem. I'm a het cis white woman who's surrounded by male attention and often treated with respect. I'm career-oriented and happy with the direction my life is going.
> 
> What I'm failing to "cope with" is the fact that large numbers of people still think it's okay to degrade women, and that it's taken this eerie socially acceptable note of blame games.


As it was a wishful-thinking statement, you should not expect it to hold under pressure. The reality of course is that people will always have issues and that will affect the playing field.

My point (or argument, if you would like to call it one - or even just "opinion") was that a lot of gender problems stem from peoples' psychological problems (e.g. self-esteem, social status, etc.). For example, the textbook guy who complains about girls friendzoning him but is also horrible at communicating sexual interest and generally doesn't know how to form relationships without doing a (likely one-sided) circus act of "winning someone over" to be his friend. Or the textbook girl who complains about how all of the "good guys" are married, but she has nothing going for her other than going to bars, getting drunk, and generally being horrible at standing up for herself or considering that maybe she's looking in the wrong place for a mate. What do these caricatures have in common? Neither is willing to consider that they are the common denominator in their relationship failures. So instead, they blame the most obvious common factor they can find outside of themselves; the other gender.

I think you both have the right mindset and it's one that I probably agree with 100%, but you are also taking what I said to a place that it never needed to go. My point isn't so much that "if everyone resolved their issue there would be no issue," as that just sounds like magical fairy talk. My point is more specific - that a lot of the obsession over gender roles and so on (that includes things like degradation and perhaps even violence... though violence is a somewhat more complex topic) directly stems from things self-esteem issues (at their core).

You are welcome to disagree with that point and tell me where you think it stems from, but this isn't about waving a magic wand and saying "problems of the world...disappear!" I am talking about real problems, despite approaching it in a wishful way.

I'm not a shadow. Please read carefully before you jump at the dark.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

snail said:


> I like and agree with your post except for the parts I made small and clarified in red. I wanted to click the Thank button, but couldn't bring myself to Thank something that said being thin was always a good goal for everyone, or that society's beauty ideals had size-ism as an upside rather than as one of the main parts that needs to be challenged fiercely.


Thanks @snail for bringing this to my attention. Where I have used thin, I should have probably used "a healthy weight". Being thin shouldn't be a goal, being healthy should be. Being thin has its own dilemias and health problems associated with it just as being overweight does. The real in-between ideal doesn't exist in culture and likely should be defined by health science than anything else.

Size-ism theoratically has its upsides - to promote thinner people. Theoratically. In practice, fat shaming for women (and to a lesser extent - thin shaming for men) creates immense body image issues as highlighted by @devoid , so I'm not sure tough love is the best way to solve this problem.


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## Mr.Blayz (Nov 20, 2012)

devoid said:


> There is a Men's Rights group, but it unfortunately has a very bad reputation, because as you can imagine a lot of very chauvinistic guys became members. It was originally for the purpose of breaking down the male gender stereotype - how we expect men to "be a man" and be tough, take all the responsibility upon themselves, be the primary bread winner, etc. even in our modern society. But what it dissolved into was a lot of men blaming women for a lack of jobs, trying to "emasculate" men, and the disruption of the traditional family unit. So it became less about social change and more about a return to conservative values.
> 
> I think that if you look hard enough, you will find people out there who think like you do. It's hard. I once took a class on gender, and the professor asked, "Who do you think is repressed more in society, men or women?" I was the only one who said men. My classmates gasped and asked, "How could you say that?" I said, "Women can wear pants in public, but men still can't wear dresses."
> 
> I think in some ways the Feminism movement does help to combat that. A lot of the Feminists I know are supportive of helping break the male stereotypes as well. But it's hard to notice them when we have such a vocal group of people who are eager to blame men for everything.


i think my biggest concern is not women and men, or blacks and whites, homos vs heteros etc. My biggest problem is people are always trying to one up rather than everyone just be good to each other for example (fat girls shaming skinny girls) if people just had in their minds to just be fair and understood why the golden rule is important than the world would then be progressing toward something better


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

LostFavor said:


> As it was a wishful-thinking statement, you should not expect it to hold under pressure. The reality of course is that people will always have issues and that will affect the playing field.
> 
> My point (or argument, if you would like to call it one - or even just "opinion") was that a lot of gender problems stem from peoples' psychological problems (e.g. self-esteem, social status, etc.). For example, the textbook guy who complains about girls friendzoning him but is also horrible at communicating sexual interest and generally doesn't know how to form relationships without doing a (likely one-sided) circus act of "winning someone over" to be his friend. Or the textbook girl who complains about how all of the "good guys" are married, but she has nothing going for her other than going to bars, getting drunk, and generally being horrible at standing up for herself or considering that maybe she's looking in the wrong place for a mate. What do these caricatures have in common? Neither is willing to consider that they are the common denominator in their relationship failures. So instead, they blame the most obvious common factor they can find outside of themselves; the other gender.
> 
> ...


It would be difficult to argue that society does not at least contribute to one's construction of themself. 

Thus changing society is just as pertient as changing oneself. 

It's a factor to be mindful of. But you are right, personal responsibility to a certain extent should be an acknowledged as reason, but there is a clear impact of society.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Mr.Blayz said:


> i think my biggest concern is not women and men, or blacks and whites, homos vs heteros etc. My biggest problem is people are always trying to one up rather than everyone just be good to each other for example (fat girls shaming skinny girls) if people just had in their minds to just be fair and understood why the golden rule is important than the world would then be progressing toward something better


Well as a general rule, the most outspoken are the least qualified to talk.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Mr.Blayz said:


> i think my biggest concern is not women and men, or blacks and whites, homos vs heteros etc. My biggest problem is people are always trying to one up rather than everyone just be good to each other for example (fat girls shaming skinny girls) if people just had in their minds to just be fair and understood why the golden rule is important than the world would then be progressing toward something better


It's a part of human nature that can be very depressing if you look too deeply into it. But the best thing we can do is stay optimistic. I'm not trying to fight human nature. There will always be conflict, inequality, haters and shamers. What I'm trying to change is the larger mentality which prevents society as a whole from progressing. Plenty of negative things can be said about the Feminism movement and the individuals who call themselves Feminists. But look at what they've accomplished!!! Women can vote!! Men are no longer expected to be the sole provider of income in a household! It's been a huge boon for the economy and has helped empower billions of women around the world.

I think we should look at social change in that regard. You can't fix everything, but you sure as hell can move mountains and make the world a better place.


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## StarFollowed (May 5, 2014)

strayfire said:


> Thanks @snail Being thin shouldn't be a goal, being healthy should be.


What is so terrible about wanting to be thin? If you take baby steps and lose weight healthily, why shouldn't thinness be a part of the goal? 



> Being thin has its own dilemias and health problems associated with it just as being overweight does. The real in-between ideal doesn't exist in culture and likely should be defined by health science than anything else.


 Being thin only is a problem when the person is skinny-fat. (high body fat percentage at a very low weight.) it's not as common as you think. Typically, people who have been thin do not have this problem - people who lose weight too rapidly/loss of muscle mass/unhealthily do since they tend to keep more visceral fat. 



> Size-ism theoratically has its upsides - to promote thinner people. Theoratically. In practice, fat shaming for women (and to a lesser extent - thin shaming for men) creates immense body image issues as highlighted by @devoid , so I'm not sure tough love is the best way to solve this problem.


Alright, let me state something here.

In other countries, if someone is fat, they won't talk about how it creates body image issues when being "fat-shamed." They recognize it's a problem and instead of complaining about body image issues they *do*something about it. Not everyone is meant to be "stick thin", but someone who has clearly let themselves go needs to take immediate action. It's not okay to be fat. Food is the only thing you can completely control (unless you have a binge eating disorder) and by understanding healthy measures to get to a good weight (thin is under 24 on the BMI. in other words, healthy). That extra fat is not healthy, despite having a healthy diet, running marathons, etc. It'll cause so many problems in the long run. For woman, when your body fat percentage is at 27%, you need to take action to lose a few pounds.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

strayfire said:


> It would be difficult to argue that society does not at least contribute to one's construction of themself.
> 
> Thus changing society is just as pertient as changing oneself.
> 
> It's a factor to be mindful of. But you are right, personal responsibility to a certain extent should be an acknowledged as reason, but there is a clear impact of society.


Yes and no. This is a bad time for me to be getting deep into the psychological examinations, as it's very late here, but the best way I can think to put it is:

Yes, society contributes to how people view themselves, but I also think that someone who is raised well in the home will be able to handle most societies without encountering significant psychological issues. 

You could then say "society affects how people are raised in the home" and although I would agree, I would also say it's more of an indirect affect. I actually think the extent to which "society" affects people is largely insignificant compared to the effect that their parents and closest friends have on them during their development as a person. The most obvious example for me is using myself; I am a lot like my mother, good and bad. 

The identifiable effects that media and society have had on me, by comparison, largely look like surface symptoms triggered by deeper problems - not unlike a cup handle that breaks off because it wasn't well-manufactured in the first place. Some people would look at the cup and say that the pressure on the handle was what caused it to break. And although that's technically true, if the manufacturing had instead been stronger, then the pressure may not have broken the handle at all. Does that make sense?

I do think personal responsibility is important, but I don't quite see the issue as a deficiency of responsibility, so much as a consequence of how people grow up. That is, in the same way that I wouldn't assume a drug addict is addicted to drugs simply because he/she is failing to utilize self control. Personal responsibility is nonetheless important, of course, but if the person lacks it, then they need a way to get ahold of it - they can't necessarily create it out of thin air.

I'm not saying you think this necessarily, but sometimes we as human beings tend to think that if we have access to X ability or capability, then everybody else has it too. I believe there's a name for this, though it escapes me right now. It might be one end of the Dunning-Kruger Effect that I'm thinking of. Point in that regard is: Being deficient in certain psychological or emotional areas may be a thing that we need to consider, in the same way that one is less experienced at fixing mechanical things or more adept at playing sports. I mean, we can tabulate psychological disorders already, but I'm thinking more along the lines of the people who are struggling little enough to be under the radar of disorder while still being significantly affected by what they lack.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Tangled In Flowers said:


> What is so terrible about wanting to be thin? If you take baby steps and lose weight healthily, why shouldn't thinness be a part of the goal?
> 
> Being thin only is a problem when the person is skinny-fat. (high body fat percentage at a very low weight.) it's not as common as you think. Typically, people who have been thin do not have this problem - people who lose weight too rapidly/loss of muscle mass/unhealthily do since they tend to keep more visceral fat.
> 
> ...


I feel like you and @strayfire are *almost* agreeing with each other, but your phrasing is so dramatically different that it sounds like you're disagreeing.

For someone who is naturally fat (not obese, but heavy), being thin can be very unhealthy. And for someone who is naturally thin, being fat can be very unhealthy. The US is somewhat unique in that we have a serious obesity problem, coupled with a serious anorexia problem.

The issue is that people who are insecure will tend to be insecure no matter what they look like. So when we throw around insults aimed toward fat people, they will be heard by the insecure fat people AND by thin people who view themselves as fat. And when we throw around insults aimed toward thin people, they will be heard by the insecure thin people and people who are self-conscious about their boobs/ass. Promoting insecurity is never a good thing. It will not lead to self improvement, and often creates just the opposite. Fat shaming can lead thin people to becoming anorexic, and thin shaming can lead obese people to things like breast enhancement surgery and even force feeding (yes, this is a thing, especially in the south).

The reason that fat shaming is more widely talked about is because of a recent change in media perception. Up until the 1940s, thin women were considered boyish and socially unfavorable. There was a lot of thin shaming in the US, and all the magazines were covered in pictures of buxom women with huge breasts. Then came Twiggy, and the rise of supermodels - fashion models who had thin, boyish figures. Now the media is so obsessed with thin women, and at the same time our eating habits as a culture have gotten worse. So we portray ideal women as thin while the majority of women are fat - creating an enormous level of insecurity.

This is why @strayfire was commenting on the importance of staying healthy, not just thin. Because when you make the goal of anything physical appearance, it leads people to do really stupid and unhealthy things - such as plastic surgery, stomach stapling, bulimia, dangerous diet pills, etc. A friend of mine (whose BMI is probably about 25) recently tried to "diet" by eating nothing but lettuce for two weeks. It's not cool.

So while your intentions seem reasonable (fight the obesity problem by discouraging obesity), I think your tactics are a bit misguided. The best thing you can do for someone with an obesity problem is to encourage them to be healthy, not to shame them for being fat.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

@devoid

Not to mention how outdated BMI is.

To BMI or not to BMI? - Health & Wellbeing


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

strayfire said:


> @devoid
> 
> Not to mention how outdated BMI is.
> 
> To BMI or not to BMI? - Health & Wellbeing


According to my BMI test I am in danger of death by anorexia, lol. My high school gym teacher was so freaked out when I took the test. So he followed me at lunch every day for a week. Much to his surprise, every day I used to bring a massive lunch for myself, then eat all of my friends' leftovers as well. The last day of that week was Halloween, so I brought my usual lunch plus a huge bag full of candy. After standing in the corner watching me for a while, he finally walked over and said, "Wha-wh- You umm shouldn't eat so much candy!" I responded with, "But I already ate two sandwiches, an apple, celery sticks and cheese crackers." He shut up and left me alone.

I grew up in Richmond, Virginia, which generally has some very traditional values still. All my life I heard "You're too scrawny" and "You have no boobs" and "Someone needs to feed you!" I was pretty unpopular with the boys and in general. When I moved up north at age 21 everyone kept telling me how attractive I am, and it was a little weird. But I still get rejected constantly by men who think I'm too small. I just don't worry about it. I'm 5'6" and 100lbs, and when people say I'm unhealthy I just ignore them now. My doctor knows I'm healthy.


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

devoid said:


> According to my BMI test I am in danger of death by anorexia, lol. My high school gym teacher was so freaked out when I took the test. So he followed me at lunch every day for a week. Much to his surprise, every day I used to bring a massive lunch for myself, then eat all of my friends' leftovers as well. The last day of that week was Halloween, so I brought my usual lunch plus a huge bag full of candy. After standing in the corner watching me for a while, he finally walked over and said, "Wha-wh- You umm shouldn't eat so much candy!" I responded with, "But I already ate two sandwiches, an apple, celery sticks and cheese crackers." He shut up and left me alone.
> 
> I grew up in Richmond, Virginia, which generally has some very traditional values still. All my life I heard "You're too scrawny" and "You have no boobs" and "Someone needs to feed you!" I was pretty unpopular with the boys and in general. When I moved up north at age 21 everyone kept telling me how attractive I am, and it was a little weird. But I still get rejected constantly by men who think I'm too small. I just don't worry about it. I'm 5'6" and 100lbs, and when people say I'm unhealthy I just ignore them now. My doctor knows I'm healthy.


Well blame the media and blame people for not thinking about things themselves.
Thanks to what people have shown and told me I have a very negative body image, but apparently some people think I don't even look that bad? It's hella confusing if you ask me


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## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

Perpendicular tothe World said:


> It's sad that these things require a serious discussion in 2014. Why can't we just treat each other like human fucking beings, instead of constantly overplaying gender roles.


I agree, but it seems people love projecting all of those generalisations that they have collected, rather than truly connecting and communicating with those around them. 

They'd rather play games rather than actually communicating their needs and intentions outright (that seems to be the root of many of the stories mentioned in this thread).



LostFavor said:


> What do these caricatures have in common?


I think I've got it, let me know if I'm wrong: They're both myths, that are endlessly discussed on the internet despite their lack of resemblance to real people with real experiences and real needs.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Mr.Blayz said:


> A girl came into my apartment with some other girl that didnt live here while I was trying to sleep and I told her to get out, she insisted that since im not the only one who lived there i couldnt tell her to leave, i started getting more assertive about it because it was 2 am and i had an important audition the next morning, and she threatened to kick my ass. I proceeded to inform her that there's a reason why guys don't hit girls but if she hit me I'm not going to let her just kick my ass because she was a big girl and i couldnt just hold her arms and then she told a bunch of guys and they all threatened to kick my ass if i touched her so i had to just let her scream and yell and blast music beside my bed while I was trying to sleep. If i would have let her kick my ass and didn't fight back, there wouldn't be a group of girls to come over and defend me, because nobody gives a shit, i would have just been embarrassed for a long time after and she would have still gotten what she wanted.


My brother got beat up by a woman because he wouldn't hit her back and then got lavished with female attention for it. He thought that women taking turns to hug him, squashing his face into their breasts, asking if he was ok and saying how sweet he was, was well worth the beating. 
I don't agree with women hitting men any more than I agree with men hitting women. 
My point is don't be so sure that nobody else would care simply because you're male.


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## MisterD (Feb 24, 2010)

At this rate, looking at a woman will be regarded as rape. 

The fact that this is even a debatable topic just shows how much the world has changed over the years.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

MisterD said:


> At this rate, looking at a woman will be regarded as rape.
> 
> The fact that this is even a debatable topic just shows how much the world has changed over the years.


How terrible that the world should change.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

MisterD said:


> At this rate, looking at a woman will be regarded as rape.
> 
> The fact that this is even a debatable topic just shows how much the world has changed over the years.



Nothing is regarded as rape, except rape. 
Sexual penetration without consent. Now this includes anal and oral penetration, whereas it used to be only vaginal penetration. 
Now it includes marital rape and rape where the victim is threatened with or in fear of potential physical harm. 
Whereas before, to be rape it had to have included significant force and physical harm. 

None of these situations are anything less than penetration without consent. 

What rate are you referring to?
Are any of these new additions unreasonable, in your opinion?


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Snow Leopard said:


> I think I've got it, let me know if I'm wrong: They're both myths, that are endlessly discussed on the internet despite their lack of resemblance to real people with real experiences and real needs.


You'd be amazed how well they resemble a number of real people out there. Some of us have seen the examples at work, firsthand.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@devoid
I agree. there is nothing wrong with wanting your partner to look presentable....if you're willing to look presentable yourself. imo, the problem is not so much "there is too much pressure on women to look attractive", but rather "there is not enough pressure on men to look attractive" (of course, I'm incredibly biased, because more boyz looking super sexy would benefit me greatly lol)


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @devoid
> I agree. there is nothing wrong with wanting your partner to look presentable....if you're willing to look presentable yourself. imo, the problem is not so much "there is too much pressure on women to look attractive", but rather "there is not enough pressure on men to look attractive" (of course, I'm incredibly biased, because more boyz looking super sexy would benefit me greatly lol)


there's plenty of pressure on guys to look attractive


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Morfinyon said:


> there's plenty of pressure on guys to look attractive


*guys who are into anime*: yes
*gay boyz*: yes
*everyone else*: no


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *guys who are into anime*: yes
> *gay boyz*: yes
> *everyone else*: no


id have to disagree


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## OberonHuxley (Jun 2, 2013)

It's absolutely hysterical to me that all these threads are the same. Someone starts the thread with good points and then it evolves into, "everything you can do I can do better!."

It's almost like looking into a hall of a mirrors and seeing a reflection of an object. At first, each reflection seems so different, but after a while you start to realize it's just the same object in different mirrors.

It's making me laugh so hard I can barely contain myself.

For the record...I am a person who has acquired more sympathy and compassion for women. I agree....one unique thing about this thread is that it was brought up that woman have to shave their bodies and go through intense rituals to look good. I've always felt bad for them and I always told myself I would never hold my s.o. to that unfortunately the most girls like to go for the guys with the shaved bodies and tans so they only shoot themselves in the foot. How do I know? Well when I get a tan and shave my head and get buff I get girls...when I don't....I get girls but far fewer and for reasons even more superficial.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Morfinyon said:


> id have to disagree


just swing by any college campus and see all the guys in sweats vs the dolled up females. sorry mate, but I gotta go with the feminists on this one


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> just swing by any college campus and see all the guys in sweats vs the dolled up females. sorry mate, but I gotta go with the feminists on this one


I'm going to university right now and its more the other way around to be honest  
well not quite, its about equal


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## OberonHuxley (Jun 2, 2013)

Morfinyon said:


> I'm going to university right now and its more the other way around to be honest
> well not quite, its about equal


Yeah...that's a bad example...when I was at the UNI girls and boys grouched out equally...

But in general, after the age of 25....I really feel bad for women. They have to go through the ringer. The ones who don't get married are constantly bombarded by the fact that they might not be able to have kids if they don't have them before a certain age....when you get older it's harder to hustle...and they have to do all this maintenance to keep up with the younger women that men always try to nab...

So after 25 I definitely feel a lot of sympathy for women so I understand....b


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

OberonHuxley said:


> Yeah...that's a bad example...when I was at the UNI girls and boys grouched out equally...
> 
> But in general, after the age of 25....I really feel bad for women. They have to go through the ringer. The ones who don't get married are constantly bombarded by the fact that they might not be able to have kids if they don't have them before a certain age....when you get older it's harder to hustle...and they have to do all this maintenance to keep up with the younger women that men always try to nab...
> 
> So after 25 I definitely feel a lot of sympathy for women so I understand....b


I'm 21 and I constantly get bombared lel. "At this rate you are never going to have a family", "you should explore your love life more", "aren't you lonely?", "in a few years no woman will want you anymore", "in 10 years you'll be even uglier and noone will want you"


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## OberonHuxley (Jun 2, 2013)

Morfinyon said:


> I'm 21 and I constantly get bombared lel. "At this rate you are never going to have a family", "you should explore your love life more", "aren't you lonely?", "in a few years no woman will want you anymore", "in 10 years you'll be even uglier and noone will want you"


I feel you...if you read the sexual confessions forum I go into some details about my love life. I've been pressured to go out all my life. I actually didn't lose my virginity until I was 19 but my gawd....once I lost it...well...when it rains it pours..

The point is...I go through periods of solitutde. Like I'll go a year without getting laid and hten in one week I'll get laid four times. It just depends. I always have a goal I'm working on so part of it is me on the d/l...underground you know?

The point is though...for women...there life isn't like how mine is...I'm 29 and I'm going to be thinking about going out to a club and pulling tail until I'm like 35 meanwhile a woman has all these pressures thrust on her by family and pressure to tie the knot with some baffoon they don't really like anyways.

Meanwhile...I'm going to be playing video games and hustling.


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

OberonHuxley said:


> I feel you...if you read the sexual confessions forum I go into some details about my love life. I've been pressured to go out all my life. I actually didn't lose my virginity until I was 19 but my gawd....once I lost it...well...when it rains it pours..
> 
> The point is...I go through periods of solitutde. Like I'll go a year without getting laid and hten in one week I'll get laid four times. It just depends. I always have a goal I'm working on so part of it is me on the d/l...underground you know?
> 
> ...


idk I mean, I dont know that my girls/women. My girlfriend doesnt want a family and wants to be a genetics scientist. My best friend just wants a decent job and pursue her hobbies and read all the books. I think a lot of the pressure is self-induced and a lot of it is induced by society.
I'd guess that the situation is somewhat different in Germany though


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## OberonHuxley (Jun 2, 2013)

Morfinyon said:


> idk I mean, I dont know that my girls/women. My girlfriend doesnt want a family and wants to be a genetics scientist. My best friend just wants a decent job and pursue her hobbies and read all the books. I think a lot of the pressure is self-induced and a lot of it is induced by society.
> I'd guess that the situation is somewhat different in Germany though



Oh...word...Germany is like a utopia compared to the shit hole which is my city.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

LostFavor said:


> Yes and no. This is a bad time for me to be getting deep into the psychological examinations, as it's very late here, but the best way I can think to put it is:
> 
> Yes, society contributes to how people view themselves, but I also think that someone who is raised well in the home will be able to handle most societies without encountering significant psychological issues.
> 
> ...


Why are you placing society and family into two separate categories? The family unit is the basic building block of modern human society.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Why are you placing society and family into two separate categories? The family unit is the basic building block of modern human society.


Because when people use the word "society," it's often followed by references to media, pop culture, etc.

My intention is to isolate cause and effect, not be 100% true to existing definitions of words. If you can give an example of how using the two words as one is helpful to discussion, then I'd be happy to consider it.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

LostFavor said:


> Because when people use the word "society," it's often followed by references to media, pop culture, etc.
> 
> My intention is to isolate cause and effect, not be 100% true to existing definitions of words. If you can give an example of how using the two words as one is helpful to discussion, then I'd be happy to consider it.


Thats because people have a poor understanding of what "society" is. Also, that kind of thinking is very detrimental.

Its helpful in this very discussion. When we say "society" needs to change in order to achieve gender equality, the family unit is a significant part of that. The largest part of our personalities are formed in the years we live with our parents. I don't understand why you separated the two.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Thats because people have a poor understanding of what "society" is. Also, that kind of thinking is very detrimental.
> 
> Its helpful in this very discussion. When we say "society" needs to change in order to achieve gender equality, the family unit is a significant part of that. The largest part of our personalities are formed in the years we live with our parents. I don't understand why you separated the two.


I just said why I separated the two...


> Because when people use the word "society," it's often followed by references to media, pop culture, etc.


i.e. a larger scope than the "family unit" and the "family unit" is often ignored in that same scope.

Please nitpick words elsewhere. I don't have much more patience for this insisting upon the "correctness" of words. I work with what's most likely to be clear to the people I'm talking to.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> What witch hunt? You're hilariously blowing your top for no reason other than I called you out on basically making no sense whatsoever. It doesn't even matter what your intentions are when your argument basically amounts to nothing. Sorry that I hurt your feelings. Do better next time.


You've got some much hypocrisy going on here it's astounding. You claim I'm making no sense whatsoever while accusing me of thinking feminism is irrelevant because of something about the use of the words "society" and "family." Your argument amounts to nitpicking words and then jumping from point A to point Illuminati. I am honestly embarrassed for you at this point. I'm not sure whether you genuinely don't see how out of left field this entire "rebuttal" of yours was, or if you're just trying to save face at this point.

I would wish you well, but honestly, you would probably just tell me that the word "well" doesn't mean what I think it means and I want to murder babies.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

SimplisticFortitude said:


> But there is also room for love too!


Of course.  I like to think there's always room for love. It's just not something people speak of as much in public because it doesn't offend people as often (except in debates of homosexuality, interracial marriage, etc.)


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Well then I should start loving everyone in this thread to the point that they get offended. Then we can perpetuate the topic of love via their ire.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

SimplisticFortitude said:


> Well then I should start loving everyone in this thread to the point that they get offended. Then we can perpetuate the topic of love via their ire.


Hahaha I can't explain why but that post made me happy. I think I do that quite often - love people until it offends them. It's one of my goals in life, to love every person for who they are, no matter their flaws. Serial killers and nuns alike.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Then I guess you will be the first one I love to death.
Then @TheProphetLaLa because obvious reasons.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

LostFavor said:


> You've got some much hypocrisy going on here it's astounding. You claim I'm making no sense whatsoever while accusing me of thinking feminism is irrelevant because of something about the use of the words "society" and "family." Your argument amounts to nitpicking words and then jumping from point A to point Illuminati. I am honestly embarrassed for you at this point. I'm not sure whether you genuinely don't see how out of left field this entire "rebuttal" of yours was, or if you're just trying to save face at this point.
> 
> I would wish you well, but honestly, you would probably just tell me that the word "well" doesn't mean what I think it means and I want to murder babies.


I guess you're so busy being embarrassed for other people you have no time to be embarrassed for yourself. Maybe thats why your thought process is so lacking...You've latched on to the feminism comment I made and are holding onto it for dear life because you have no confidence in your actual posts. Stop being so god damn sensitive, its pathetic. Words don't mean whatever you want them to mean by sprinkling some magic fairy dust on them. They have definitions and if you use them in the wrong way the whole argument falls through, because they are the very base of your perspective. The only thing I'm accusing you of is making a shitty point. Which still stands. So cry me a fucking river, build a fucking bridge, and get the fuck over it.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> I guess you're so busy being embarrassed for other people you have no time to be embarrassed for yourself. Maybe thats why your thought process is so lacking...You've latched on to the feminism comment I made and are holding onto it for dear life because you have no confidence in your actual posts. Stop being so god damn sensitive, its pathetic. Words don't mean whatever you want them to mean by sprinkling some magic fairy dust on them. They have definitions and if you use them in the wrong way the whole argument falls through, because they are the very base of your perspective. The only thing I'm accusing you of is making a shitty point. Which still stands. So cry me a fucking river, build a fucking bridge, and get the fuck over it.


Okay, that's enough. Please try to calm down and step away from this thread now. I have a feeling he's not going to, and this could carry on all night until both of you get banned. So do us a favor and go cool off.
@LostFavor That goes for you too.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> I guess you're so busy being embarrassed for other people you have no time to be embarrassed for yourself. Maybe thats why your thought process is so lacking...You've latched on to the feminism comment I made and are holding onto it for dear life because you have no confidence in your actual posts. Stop being so god damn sensitive, its pathetic. Words don't mean whatever you want them to mean by sprinkling some magic fairy dust on them. They have definitions and if you use them in the wrong way the whole argument falls through, because they are the very base of your perspective. The only thing I'm accusing you of is making a shitty point. Which still stands. So cry me a fucking river, build a fucking bridge, and get the fuck over it.


Who's blowing their top now? I already explained what I meant with my words multiple times. I "latched onto" the feminism comment because it seemed to be the motivating factor behind your criticisms and an insanely wrong one at that. 

I'm not sure what other purpose you have, other than policing dictionary definitions. The very person I responded to seemed to have no trouble understanding me, so I would say I was successful in my use of language. 

The core problem with your "refutation" of my argument is that in light of my explaining what I meant, it's a meaningless semantic rebuttal. If I speak a word in French and you say I'm wrong because you think I'm speaking English, I'm not still wrong after I explain to you what I meant with my words.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

LostFavor said:


> Who's blowing their top now? I already explained what I meant with my words multiple times. I "latched onto" the feminism comment because it seemed to be the motivating factor behind your criticisms and an insanely wrong one at that.
> 
> I'm not sure what other purpose you have, other than policing dictionary definitions. The very person I responded to seemed to have no trouble understanding me, so I would say I was successful in my use of language.
> 
> The core problem with your "refutation" of my argument is that in light of my explaining what I meant, it's a meaningless semantic rebuttal. If I speak a word in French and you say I'm wrong because you think I'm speaking English, I'm not still wrong after I explain to you what I meant with my words.


Basically, your argument is very circular and empty, so I felt compelled to point it out. Either way, now that you're aware of your mistake, it doesn't really matter anymore. And don't get upset when you're heated and other people start throwing the heat back your way. Thats all.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Basically, your argument is very circular and empty, so I felt compelled to point it out. Either way, now that you're aware of your mistake, it doesn't really matter anymore. And don't get upset when you're heated and other people start throwing the heat back your way. Thats all.


It wasn't circular and empty though lol. That's the thing. It mattered because we disagreed (and apparently still disagree) on that fundamental point.

As for emotion, I will get frustrated in the face of stubborn contradiction if I like. And I'm content with reaping any consequences of our little off-topic display here. C'est la vie.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

LostFavor said:


> It wasn't circular and empty though lol. That's the thing. It mattered because we disagreed (and apparently still disagree) on that fundamental point.
> 
> As for emotion, I will get frustrated in the face of stubborn contradiction if I like. And I'm content with reaping any consequences of our little off-topic display here. C'est la vie.


Babe you came into this thread looking for a fight, don't lie to yourself. I just gave you the fight you wanted. You're welcome.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Babe you came into this thread looking for a fight, don't lie to yourself. I just gave you the fight you wanted. You're welcome.


If you weren't trolling before, I'm pretty sure you are now.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

the title of the thread is I"M GONNA BASH MEN AND TROLL.


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> the title of the thread is I"M GONNA BASH MEN AND TROLL.


The title is there to catch attention, but she raises solid arguments.
If you'd like to argue against her I suggest you bring solid arguments of your own instead of devaluing the entire post based on the title.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Tangled In Flowers said:


> devoid said:
> 
> 
> > Tangled In Flowers said:
> ...



* *


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## Pork (Mar 17, 2021)

Five songs by women that I like from 1961-1980:


Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String (1967)
Gloria Gaynor - I Will Survive (1978)
Tina Turner - Sometimes When We Touch (1979)
Petula Clark - Downtown (1964)
Dolly Parton - Busy Signal (1966)


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

devoid said:


> I noticed a trend recently where there are an awful lot of men asking, "Why won't women *_ more?" along with, "Why do women complain when men __*?" For instance, a recent thread that brought up neck beards.
> 
> "Why do women hate men with neckbeards?" Well, think of it this way: Women are expected to shave our legs and armpits constantly, or else we are accused of being disgusting by the vast majority of the male population. So the real question should be: Why is it a horrible affront to nature when women expect men to shave something as well?
> 
> ...


It depends on what kind of relationship you have, not all relationships are the same. Ideally, both partners should but an equal amount of effort into their relationships. But sometimes the woman does more, other times the man does more. I don't think this has anything to do with the era we live in, that may the be the case today in the 21st century as well as in 1800s, it has to do with the relationship itself and the people in the relationship.

Personally, I'm not aware of this "women have to put the effort in the relationship" stereotype, if anything, I saw the opposite stereotype "the man has to work to get the woman and be the provider as well as make sure she feels great, while the woman just has to be beautiful and be there".

The equivalent of if a man isn't getting laid "all those girls were bitches" is if a woman can't find a decent man "all men are shameless jerks". While the "she doesn't accept me for who I am!" can work both ways.

Why should we be ashamed of this? Don't get me wrong, I don't think people should be made fun of for their bodies and those comments were clearly disrespectful and uncalled for. But at the same time, I don't think we should hide the fact that men/women find women/men who are more physically attractive as more desireable. Having other qualities matters, clearly. But hiding behind a "looks don't matter" sign seems just as superficial as "only looks matter" only in the opposite extreme. Are we going to deny something that is universally accepted and acted upon because it makes the human race feel superficial? romantic love itself is a selfish feeling, we don't get into relationships out of love for the poor or desire to make the world a better place, we get into a relationships because we like that person and feel good with them, it's about us. It may be politically incorrect, but it's better to act on accurate information than lie ourselves about the nature of reality to feel better about ourselves. I'm not saying I like it this way, I just observe it this way and I cannot deny what I observe, don't hate the player hate the game.

It's great that you brought this about the men as well. What would happen? in my view, the same thing as with women. Maybe without the disrespectful comments because women are generally more delicate than men, but deep down in their mind the women would compare the men and think of one of them more physically attractive than the other.

There are 2 types of "nice guys", the genuinely nice guys, and the not genuinely nice guys who think of themselves as nice guys.

Let's start with the former: I believe it's important to have authenticity, honesty, kindness, sensitivity, artistic tendencies, etc. It can make you more attractive. It's important to smile and laugh because your attitude can infect the other person. And make them feel the same way as well. When someone has a good vibe, it makes you want to have a good vibe as well. Of course, you cannot hove someone with force, if you see that you are trying to be high and smile and laugh and create good vices around you but the other person is resistant, drop it, and adjust it to a more moderate one.

It's important to speak nicely to people, to be respectful, to be a good person in general. With guys, you can smack talk each other and they'll understand, with women the connection has to be more emotional, they are still human, try to put yourself in their place. Be a man with high character, look at them for what they are. Be gentle, delicate.

Be nice to everybody, to be a good human being, a good person. Be respectful and appropiate with people. Without arrogance. Caring and empathetic, show interest specific for her and to make her feel seen, and so on.

Character is the most important. People judge each other's character, this includes women when a man is approaching them. Yes, he has to be attractive, but he also has to be of good character. A good character is appreciated.

It's also important what you attract with: money, hot looks, nice behavior. What you attract with can determine the rest of your relationship.

While the not genuinely nice guy only do this because of a relationship and not because it's the right thing to do. And also, if he doesn't get what he wants he becomes bitter and resentful because of this. Going for "all women are X". On the opposite side of the spectrum, women that go for bad men who treat others poorly, will end up with bad men who treat them poorly, it's like playing with a tiger and expecting him not to turn on you. They both suffer because of their mistakes, I'm not feeling judgmental towards nice guys who are bitter and resentful because their niceness wasn't rewarded with a a relationship or women who like bad men who treat others poorly and end up with bad men who treat them poorly, if anything, I feel sorry for them that they don't know any better, it's not their fault.

To put an end to acquaintance rape we need to teach women that it's okay to say no. You can say no. It's your relationship, your preference, you cannot be judged for your preferneces (actually, you can that's the problem, but you should think that your personal relationship is your business and yours alone, nobody has the right to tell you "who you are supposed" to date). As for men, we should teach them that being a good person is not enough to get women swarm over you.

You have an interesting perspective about what Disney taught us that being a good person will guarantee that that girl wants to be with you. This is toxic. But I think women actually have it worse here: Snow White, Cinderella. If anything only the Beauty and the Beast show a woman that has anything more going on for her than her looks and a man with a bit more personality than prince charming from generic Disney story.

The grass ain't greener on the other side either, while you are frustrated that the woman always has to put the effort in a relationship, this guy is frustrated about the opposite, lack of emotional support from women:








NO WOMAN WANTS TO GIVE MEN EMOTIONAL SUPPORT. IS THERE...


I think it is time for this thread to stop.. it is clearly outlived its original purpose. but we haven't even had out first ban yet




www.personalitycafe.com




Which brings me full cyrcle back to my original point: It depends on what kind of relationship you have, not all relationships are the same. Ideally, both partners should but an equal amount of effort into their relationships. But sometimes the woman does more, other times the man does more. I don't think this has anything to do with the era we live in, that may the be the case today in the 21st century as well as in 1800s, it has to do with the relationship itself and the people in the relationship.


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