# Hillary or Bernie?



## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Hillary or Bernie?


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## katemess (Oct 21, 2015)

Neither. 

But can I just take this opportunity to mention how gross the slogan "Feel the Bern" is? Foul.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

katemess said:


> Neither.
> 
> But can I just take this opportunity to mention how gross the slogan "Feel the Bern" is? Foul.


I guess if you take it literally...


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

I voted for Sanders in your poll but my candidate is Fiorina.


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## INTJake (Oct 1, 2015)

Neither!

However, I want Hillary to win the primaries against Bernie, this way the Bernie fans won't vote and whoever's the GOP candidate will beat hillary. I honestly think Trump/Cruz would beat Hillary but Bernie would beat either of them.


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## Caraxor (Apr 21, 2015)

Vikinq said:


> Neither!
> 
> However, I want Hillary to win the primaries against Bernie, this way the Bernie fans won't vote and whoever's the GOP candidate will beat hillary. I honestly think Trump/Cruz would beat Hillary but Bernie would beat either of them.


Not trump... please no trump


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Vikinq said:


> Neither!
> 
> However, I want Hillary to win the primaries against Bernie, this way the Bernie fans won't vote and whoever's the GOP candidate will beat hillary. I honestly think Trump/Cruz would beat Hillary but Bernie would beat either of them.


I think either Bernie or Hillary could beat Trump or Cruz.

My dad is a registered Republican and he hates Trump and Cruz...


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## Wednesday Mermaid (May 30, 2015)

Bernie 100%


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## Hei (Jul 8, 2014)

Definitely Bernie


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## KC (May 5, 2011)

If I was American, I would like everyone to feel the Bern...


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

KC said:


> If I was American, I would like everyone to feel the Bern...


Feel free to vote in this poll.


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

nburns said:


> I think either Bernie or Hillary could beat Trump or Cruz.
> 
> My dad is a registered Republican and he hates Trump and Cruz...


Have you seen the polls?

//neither.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Trec93 said:


> Have you seen the polls?
> 
> //neither.


I put in a "neither" option for completeness, but, if you pick neither, your vote doesn't really count. =P


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)




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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

_Bernie. 
_
I am ashamed to share Hillary's cognitive function(s). (◕︿◕✿)

(◕︿◕✿)

(◕︿◕✿)

(◕︿◕✿) ​


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## Turlowe (Aug 4, 2014)

Bernie, absolutely and without reservation.


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## Despotic Nepotist (Mar 1, 2014)

Bernie definitely.


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## Persephone Soul (Mar 27, 2015)

Eww, NEITHER.


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## Consistently Inconsistent (Feb 22, 2011)

NOTA, although at this point I would say the same thing about the Republican candidates...


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## fair phantom (Mar 5, 2015)

bernieeee


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## Flaming Bassoon (Feb 15, 2013)

Bernie, but I'll settle for Hills later on if I must.


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## Solrac026 (Mar 6, 2012)

nburns said:


> I guess if you take it literally...


Guess you can say, someone "Felt the Bern".


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Flaming Bassoon said:


> Bernie, but I'll settle for Hills later on if I must.


Tru that.


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## kittenklyn (Nov 2, 2015)

Hillary is so inconsistent, id never vote for her. 

Sanders is great, except I don't like his views on abortion, however if still vote for him. 

Trump is insane xD
But if I'm being totally honest...........I VOTE VERMIN SUPREME FOR 2016!!!!!


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## stargazing grasshopper (Oct 25, 2013)

Tomorrow mornings news headline * Bernie Sanders Drops A House On Hillary Clinton!

*


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

Bernie

But Hilary is not that bad. People exaggerate.


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## piscesfish (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm with Hillary 100%, but I'd support Bernie if he were the nominee. (I also really liked OMalley and definitely would have voted for him if he had a chance. I hope he gets more experience and runs again next cycle now that he's gotten his name out) 

At the end of the day, I think Hillary has more foreign policy experience and a more realistic plan for how she will meet her goals. I don't find her cold-- she's a Ni/Te user trying to get her message across; we PerCers should at least understand that haha. She's maybe a little awkward with trying to appeal to younger people but no more than any other grandma would be. 

Still, as long as a Democrat wins the general election, I'll be happy.


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## neuromaencer (Feb 11, 2016)

I burn for the bern.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

piscesfish said:


> At the end of the day, I think Hillary has more foreign policy experience and a more realistic plan for how she will meet her goals. I don't find her cold-- she's a Ni/Te user trying to get her message across; we PerCers should at least understand that haha. She's maybe a little awkward with trying to appeal to younger people but no more than any other grandma would be.


I think she was always kind of awkward. I don't think it has to do with being a grandma.



> Still, as long as a Democrat wins the general election, I'll be happy.


I'll be more than happy. I'll be ecstatic. I had just assumed that a Republican would win in 2016, since the last time we had two Democrats in a row was JFK-Johnson and the last time we had a Democrat for more than 8 consecutive years was FDR-Truman. (In both cases, well before I was born.)


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## leftover crack (May 12, 2013)

I'd vote trump.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

It's interesting how, as more people vote, the percentages don't really change. Bernie has been right around 70% since the poll started.


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## SicIndigo (Feb 2, 2016)

Feel the Bern!


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## Misaki (Feb 1, 2015)

Not American, but rooting for Bernie Sanders all the way!


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## NoWonder (Feb 18, 2016)

I'm not American either but though I root for Bernie's ideas, I'm doubtful of his election and its consequences.

I'm currently studying the US Presidential Race and Bernie's program seems unachievable. (Notice me if I'm wrong please) 

In my opinion, even though he was elected, he would have to fight Congress to pass all his socialist laws. I'm not sure he will succeed. If he do convince the Congress, the US will face an unprecedented turnaround. Will it be great? I can't say. In France, when the first socialist was in power, sure the working and living conditions have met net improvement but as time goes by, I can see the reforms fallouts. (Taxing riches => they move abroad => no employment, good living conditions => many lazy people take advantage of the system => make the hard-working people feel frustrated that they have to pay the taxes for the wrong one => they won't work anymore => lazy population , good working conditions => no need for hardworking => no progress/creation )
If he doesn't succeed , well, at best, American understand, in the worst case, I assume they will swing to the Republicans. 

Then again, it's my opinion and my analysis. Only the future can prove me right or wrong, but it's a good debate.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

NoWonder said:


> I'm not American either but though I root for Bernie's ideas, I'm doubtful of his election and its consequences.
> 
> I'm currently studying the US Presidential Race and Bernie's program seems unachievable. (Notice me if I'm wrong please)


True, but presidential candidates always promise more than they can realistically get through Congress.



> In my opinion, even though he was elected, he would have to fight Congress to pass all his socialist laws. I'm not sure he will succeed. If he do convince the Congress, the US will face an unprecedented turnaround. Will it be great? I can't say. In France, when the first socialist was in power, sure the working and living conditions have met net improvement but as time goes by, I can see the reforms fallouts. (Taxing riches => they move abroad => no employment, good living conditions => many lazy people take advantage of the system => make the hard-working people feel frustrated that they have to pay the taxes for the wrong one => they won't work anymore => lazy population , good working conditions => no need for hardworking => no progress/creation )
> If he doesn't succeed , well, at best, American understand, in the worst case, I assume they will swing to the Republicans.
> 
> Then again, it's my opinion and my analysis. Only the future can prove me right or wrong, but it's a good debate.


Germany is a lot more socialist than the US, but it has a strong economy, no?


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## NoWonder (Feb 18, 2016)

nburns said:


> Germany is a lot more socialist than the US, but it has a strong economy, no?


I have never studied Germany's political system, so that's an interesting fact. I'm gonna study this question. Thank you for this example!


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## The Dude (May 20, 2010)

Bernie...


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## ENTPness (Apr 18, 2015)

If a Republican becomes President, it will be 100% Bernie Sanders' fault. Either because he gets the nod and fails miserably (just like the GOP wants him to - Karl Rove is literally funding pro-Bernie/anti-Hillary ads). Or if Hillary gets the nod and all the "anti-establishment" naive young people he riled up refuse to vote for her. Because he split a party that he's not even a member of in two. Way to go Bernie. You're the best thing that's ever happened to the GOP. The advantages we would have had if we had all rallied behind a single candidate while the GOP Primaries were a public clown show would have been invaluable. Now that's all out the window thanks to a 75 year old hippie who dangles the promise of free shit (but no plan as to how this will be paid for or passed) in front of fucking Millennials. I hope you all enjoy the Trump presidency.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

ENTPness said:


> If a Republican becomes President, it will be 100% Bernie Sanders' fault. Either because he gets the nod and fails miserably (just like the GOP wants him to - Karl Rove is literally funding pro-Bernie/anti-Hillary ads). Or if Hillary gets the nod and all the "anti-establishment" naive young people he riled up refuse to vote for her. Because he split a party that he's not even a member of in two. Way to go Bernie. You're the best thing that's ever happened to the GOP. The advantages we would have had if we had all rallied behind a single candidate while the GOP Primaries were a public clown show would have been invaluable. Now that's all out the window thanks to a 75 year old hippie who dangles the promise of free shit (but no plan as to how this will be paid for or passed) in front of fucking Millennials. I hope you all enjoy the Trump presidency.


Actually, I feel that way about Trump, only moreso. Go Trump!!! He has ~30% of the Republican vote, and I hope he keeps that 30%, which will be more like 15% in the general election.


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## ENTPness (Apr 18, 2015)

nburns said:


> Actually, I feel that way about Trump, only moreso. Go Trump!!! He has ~30% of the Republican vote, and I hope he keeps that 30%, which will be more like 15% in the general election.


Honestly, they have a ton in common. Both are outsiders who are totally crashing their parties which they are not welcomed to at all by party leaders. Both are vilifying the "establishment" to get people riled up to support them. Both are seen as the "honest" candidates who speak their minds. Both are radicals who are playing off two different crowds equally motivated by frustration and anger at the status quo. And both of them are of absolutely zero substance and cannot articulate how they plan to make any of their outrageous, impossible ideas a reality. I just think Trump would be more likely to win a general election after the GOP smear campaign brutalized Bernie's socialism.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

ENTPness said:


> Honestly, they have a ton in common. Both are outsiders who are totally crashing their parties which they are not welcomed to at all by party leaders.


Trump is an outsider with no government experience. Sanders OTOH has been in Congress since 1991 and, before that, he was mayor of Burlington from 1981-1989. Sanders has over 30 years' experience in elected office.











> Both are vilifying the "establishment" to get people riled up to support them. Both are seen as the "honest" candidates who speak their minds. Both are radicals who are playing off two different crowds equally motivated by frustration and anger at the status quo. And both of them are of absolutely zero substance and cannot articulate how they plan to make any of their outrageous, impossible ideas a reality. I just think Trump would be more likely to win a general election after the GOP smear campaign brutalized Bernie's socialism.


I would have thought "socialism" would be a bigger issue, especially after the ugliness of the opposition to Obamacare, but the success of the Sanders campaign so far disproves that.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

NoWonder said:


> I'm not American either but though I root for Bernie's ideas, I'm doubtful of his election and its consequences.
> 
> I'm currently studying the US Presidential Race and Bernie's program seems unachievable. (Notice me if I'm wrong please)
> 
> ...


This is a big country. Rich people moving is less likely to happen because there's a huge national identity here. They'd remain here and bitch about making america great again


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Kerik_S said:


> This is a big country. Rich people moving is less likely to happen because there's a huge national identity here. They'd remain here *and bitch about making america great again*


So, IOW, nothing would change?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

nburns said:


> So, IOW, nothing would change?


People in America like to bitch


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## NoWonder (Feb 18, 2016)

That's interesting. Can you explain more what "to bitch" means to you?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

NoWonder said:


> That's interesting. Can you explain more what "to bitch" means to you?


Complain repeatedly without offering solutions or insight as to how the situation can be precluded from being repeated again.

And, no, saying "Electing so and so will 'make America great again'" is not offering any solution or insight-- it's just offering partisan rhetoric.


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## NoWonder (Feb 18, 2016)

So in your opinion, in America, the richest will just complain but pay the taxes nevertheless? 

I haven't taken account the cultural differences between French people and American, but I assume that every wealthy person is unwilling to pay such a high rate! (something like 90% for the richest?)


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Vote for the liar who can accomplish things at least.


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## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)




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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

60-9.

Had to laugh at that. Wouldn't have expected such a giant disparity.


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## inverity (Feb 16, 2016)

I find interesting that so many people on the internet want Bernie as president, but he's not doing as well as Hillary.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

inverity said:


> I find interesting that so many people on the internet want Bernie as president, but he's not doing as well as Hillary.


This is a very youthful demographic on here...


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

inverity said:


> I find interesting that so many people on the internet want Bernie as president, but he's not doing as well as Hillary.


Communists are obnoxious, Bernie supporters are very obnoxious and loud who have too much time on their hands.


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

inverity said:


> I find interesting that so many people on the internet want Bernie as president, but he's not doing as well as Hillary.


Age difference. Most of the democrats my age that I know are for Bernie, most of the older democrats I know are for Hillary. A good chunk of the republicans I know also plan to vote for Hillary because they don't like any of the republicans running.
Hillary in many ways is probably the safest option, so I'm sure a lot of people want her as president for that reason. She's not as radical as Sanders, not as terrifyingly evangelical as Cruz, is stronger than Rubio, and doesn't have the creepy alt-right backing that Trump has.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Rebelgoatalliance said:


> Age difference. Most of the democrats my age that I know are for Bernie, most of the older democrats I know are for Hillary. *A good chunk of the republicans I know also plan to vote for Hillary because they don't like any of the republicans running.*


That's kinda what I'm counting on...



> Hillary in many ways is probably the safest option, so I'm sure a lot of people want her as president for that reason. She's not as radical as Sanders, not as terrifyingly evangelical as Cruz, is stronger than Rubio, and doesn't have the creepy alt-right backing that Trump has.


She's boring, but she'll do... it's not really up to me, anyway, since I'm in California and, by the time we vote, it'll already be decided.


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## NoWonder (Feb 18, 2016)

nburns said:


> She's boring, but she'll do... it's not really up to me, anyway, since I'm in California and, by the time we vote, it'll already be decided.


That caught my interest! As I've said, we studied the U.S election in my English class. Can you tell me why the votes in California don't count? (Maybe I haven't understood what you have said)


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

NoWonder said:


> That caught my interest! As I've said, we studied the U.S election in my English class. Can you tell me why the votes in California don't count? (Maybe I haven't understood what you have said)


It's just a fact, because different states have their primaries on different dates and California votes on the last day. So, the odds are slim that California's results will change the winner.


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## NoWonder (Feb 18, 2016)

nburns said:


> It's just a fact, because different states have their primaries on different dates and California votes on the last day. So, the odds are slim that California's results will change the winner.


Thank you for you answer. But don't you (by You, I mean American citizens) have to wait for the results of every primary and then establish the majority to find the winner? 

The primary results for the Democrats are so tight that California votes might be the decisive, don't you think? (Also, I learnt that California used to vote for the Democrats, thus I think it's for their best interest to elect the one who will represent them.)


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

NoWonder said:


> Thank you for you answer. But don't you (by You, I mean American citizens) have to wait for the results of every primary and then establish the majority to find the winner?
> 
> The primary results for the Democrats are so tight that California votes might be the decisive, don't you think? (Also, I learnt that California used to vote for the Democrats, thus I think it's for their best interest to elect the one who will represent them.)


California could end up making a difference. It's possible. I think in past elections there has usually been a clear victor before the last day.


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## Liminis (Feb 24, 2016)

I voted Bernie, though Neither could also fit me. I'll probably be voting for Jill Stein or Gloria La Riva in the general. Anything that can help build a substantive socialist left party, or (much less likely) pull the Democrats even significantly left enough to be akin to a European social democratic party, is a good thing. I wouldn't recommend doing that if you live in a state that's in play (e.g. not California) though, a Republican President would be seen as a defeat for Obama's policies and would pull the Democrats right of even the small gains we've seen under him.

In the primary, I firmly support Sanders. I say this as someone who recognizes and accepts Noam Chomsky's critique of him, that without building a left-wing movement in the legislature he'll be all alone and thus will have to compromise. I do think most of his supporters, if he's elected, will be disillusioned. The failure to build a coherent progressive legislative base first might harm the left and be presented as "a failure of socialism" when if anything it's a failure of reformist soc-dem policies. I also think the election of the first female President is actually an important symbol, breaking a major cultural barrier; "first Jewish President" is nowhere near as important a hurdle. "First socialist President" might be considering the history of the Red Scare but that's a matter of ideological choice rather than birth, and in the classical sense he's a social democrat rather than a socialist regardless.

Why do I support him then? I do not believe Clinton will take a firm stance as President against the TPP, which she helped negotiate and turned "against" at the last minute. Despite recognizing that by necessity he'll have to be a center-left reformer in office, I do at least trust him to be a consistent center-left reformer. He's opposed it from day one and I expect a serious fight with him in office, where I expect a meagerly "modified" version of the deal with Clinton. Considering the job losses and elevation of corporate personhood to corporate nationhood for the purposes of Pacific trade, that alone is enough to secure my support.

Likewise, on foreign policy, I have some complaints about Bernie. They're minor and mostly related to his desire to bring Saudi Arabia in on the anti-Daesh coalition in a substantive way, something that would give the most repressive state on the planet even more regional clout. The problem is, every other candidate in the two major parties has said things to the same effect. He's shown the best judgment there. Clinton, meanwhile, wanted to go into Syria against Assad; she was outflanked to the left in the administration by even Joe Biden, no progressive champion. Entry into Syria would have involved us in a Vietnam/Iraq-like quagmire and led to yet more instability.

Finally, he's made a constitutional amendment to ban corporate finance of campaigns and an end to Taft-Hartley which hamstrings union organizing major issues. Both are seriously important to me, because they make gains for the genuine left more possible by leveling the playing field of mobilizing resources (human and material) for political gain. With the small-scale and mostly toothless McCain-Feingold destroyed by Citizens United and the labor movement in America effectively crushed since the late 40s, it seems to me the late-capitalist trajectory towards Wall Street oligarchy is speeding up like crazy. I don't think Hillary will do anything serious to challenge it, considering her own tremendous Wall Street backing. The only other candidate with as much backing from them is Marco Rubio, under current campaign finance stats.

The only candidate arguably as solid on those three questions is Donald Trump. And on that: I'll agree he's relatively trustable in his desire to block TPP, but that's only for the job losses; any renegotiated form probably would include the corporate nationhood provisions under him. He refers to it as a "bad deal," negotiated by the "weak" Obama rather than from a position of strength. He has no opposition to it in principle if America came out better in it. He's the best Republican on foreign policy, but still opposes the Iran deal which is a humongous block against what would potentially be a cataclysmic conflict between the US and Iran. Plus the biggest bulwark against Daesh we've established thus far. And his response to campaign finance is "I'm a billionaire, I can't be bought," when it's not just an issue of one President. As usual, his stance there lacks anything in the way of substance. Plus his movement is this middle-class right-wing populist thing with nativist tendencies and a cult of personality around a strong, authoritarian figure; it legitimately looks incipiently fascist. All of that combined means I'd probably even support Clinton against him, and he doesn't really bug me as much as (theocratic Reaganism-on-steroids slash-and-burn-the-gubbermint) Cruz or ("lawlz shooting down Russian planes is like any other country right? WWIII is fine") Rubio.


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