# Non-dualized types



## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

What does each type look like when non-dualized, as opposed to dualized? Do you think there are significant differences, if so, what are they? (Or perhaps you think the whole thing is a load of poppycock. )

For example, I get the impression that non-dualized ILIs are a bit more...disconnected and apathetic, less engaging. Perhaps what I'm observing is completely unrelated to this but I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone else had any other related experiences/observations/views.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Well I assume that non-dualised types will be heavy on their ego block, whilst dualised types.. I don't know, do you mean this in terms of being dualised by another person? Because I'm pretty much self-dualised which makes me more balanced. But I put the work in. Someone being with their dual doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically dualised, especially if their ego rejects their dual and doesn't want to deal with or handle it. In that case you're gonna get someone pretty messed up.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Well I assume that non-dualised types will be heavy on their ego block, whilst dualised types.. I don't know, do you mean this in terms of being dualised by another person? Because I'm pretty much self-dualised which makes me more balanced. But I put the work in. Someone being with their dual doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically dualised, especially if their ego rejects their dual and doesn't want to deal with or handle it. In that case you're gonna get someone pretty messed up.


Yes, I was wondering how being heavy on the ego-block manifests in different types. I like concrete examples as it helps me understand these dynamics. I've found that I struggle to type ILIs that are less dualised, if that makes sense. 

I just meant dualised v non-dualised in general; I wasn't asking whether or not you can/cannot self-dualize or whether being with your dual automatically lead to dualisation. Those are seperate, but also interesting questions.
Hmm. I can't make up my mind whether I prefer spelling the word with either S or Z. :laughing:


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> Yes, I was wondering how being heavy on the ego-block manifests in different types. I like concrete examples as it helps me understand these dynamics. I've found that I struggle to type ILIs that are less dualised, if that makes sense.


Is it ILI's specifically you want to understand? Well, if you want a concrete example- an ILI isn't gonna care about what anyone else thinks. They're gonna be completely in their heads. The real world would give them dread- underdeveloped Se gives a fear that things will be boring and lifeless. There's not really any pleasure to be found in anything tangible. The world is overwhelming and they may retreat to hermit mode. They'd be disconnected and maybe eccentric because their theories won't have enough solid data backing them up. They can theorise the information they need to work with in order to make their actual theory.. none of it's real. So they'd probably be prone to bizarre ways to thinking and behaving- schizotypal and schizoid personality disorders wouldn't be too far off the mark. Somehow an ILI could continue to survive like this though, despite any pressures on them from the external world. Though to be honest, 'survive' would probably be more like "I live in a hole but I can't see any of it because all I see is what's inside my head". They might be prone to blending or overlapping reality with fantasy, for example, that tea cup sitting on the table top isn't actually a tea cup, but it's some other made up thing from another planet.. they may actually 'see' that rather than the thing that's actually in front of them.

Of course this would probably be in case of a really unhealthy ILI, but it should give you an idea.



> I just meant dualised v non-dualised in general; I wasn't asking whether or not you can/cannot self-dualize or whether being with your dual automatically lead to dualisation. Those are seperate, but also interesting questions.


I think these questions go beyond the scope of this topic, but I'd be inclined to say that you both can and can't self-dualise.


> Hmm. I can't make up my mind whether I prefer spelling the word with either S or Z. :laughing:


Auto-correct tells me I'm wrong to spell it with an S but fuck it, I say what's right


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Is it ILI's specifically you want to understand? Well, if you want a concrete example- an ILI isn't gonna care about what anyone else thinks. They're gonna be completely in their heads. The real world would give them dread- underdeveloped Se gives a fear that things will be boring and lifeless. There's not really any pleasure to be found in anything tangible. The world is overwhelming and they may retreat to hermit mode. They'd be disconnected and maybe eccentric because their theories won't have enough solid data backing them up. They can theorise the information they need to work with in order to make their actual theory.. none of it's real. So they'd probably be prone to bizarre ways to thinking and behaving- schizotypal and schizoid personality disorders wouldn't be too far off the mark. Somehow an ILI could continue to survive like this though, despite any pressures on them from the external world. Though to be honest, 'survive' would probably be more like "I live in a hole but I can't see any of it because all I see is what's inside my head". They might be prone to blending or overlapping reality with fantasy, for example, that tea cup sitting on the table top isn't actually a tea cup, but it's some other made up thing from another planet.. they may actually 'see' that rather than the thing that's actually in front of them.
> 
> Of course this would probably be in case of a really unhealthy ILI, but it should give you an idea.


Ok....but that also sounds like an unhealthy Enneagram 5 too, doesn't it? How do you tell the difference? 

Also, how the fuck does an ILI end up like that? I mean, my bf was never really exposed to much Se and grew-up in a Delta/Alpha heavy family yet I would say he was fairly dualized when we first met. Tbh, sometimes he almost seems LIE-ish when I compare him to other ILIs, but he's not, he's definitely an Ni-dominant. 

Anyway...

I was interested in hearing about what all types look like when non-dualized. Like LIE, for instance...


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> Ok....but that also sounds like an unhealthy Enneagram 5 too, doesn't it? How do you tell the difference?


Yeah, you're right. But.. I'm not really sure how it would manifest in other E-types, since Ni is pretty analytical and removed from reality. I'd think LII's could look a little like this too.. 




> Also, how the fuck does an ILI end up like that? I mean, my bf was never really exposed to much Se and grew-up in a Delta/Alpha heavy family yet I would say he was fairly dualized when we first met. Tbh, sometimes he almost seems LIE-ish when I compare him to other ILIs, but he's not, he's definitely an Ni-dominant.


Not really sure. I mean, how does anyone end up like themselves? Mixture of nature and nurture.

Maybe he's self-dualising too? Just a theory, but not every type is born or grows up unhealthy. He sounds more naturally balanced.



> I was interested in hearing about what all types look like when non-dualized. Like LIE, for instance...


I wouldn't really be able to tell you what non-dualised LIE's look like. The ILI one was a real life example I've observed. I guess as an LIE I'd become all Te and be obsessed with re-organising the external environment. Maybe obsessed with power and control.. maybe narcissistic too. Might be prone to making everything conform to a box. That's what I can think of anyway.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Maybe he's self-dualising too? Just a theory, but not every type is born or grows up unhealthy. He sounds more naturally balanced.


Born unhealthy? That kinda sucks...

I wouldn't say he was naturally balanced. He has done _a lot _of work on himself, even before he met me. I'm not sure how it relates to self-dualising though; he just came to a point where he realized he needed to work on and develop emotional intelligence. 



> I wouldn't really be able to tell you what non-dualised LIE's look like. The ILI one was a real life example I've observed. I guess as an LIE I'd become all Te and be obsessed with re-organising the external environment. Maybe obsessed with power and control.. maybe narcissistic too. Might be prone to making everything conform to a box. That's what I can think of anyway.


Hmm. Could the same not apply to an LSE?

I noticed that sometimes all I can see in a person is the dominant function. Like, there are those who clearly seem to be ILIs (NiTe types), but then there are those that seem to be all Ni and not a lot else. It's almost like their Je-function has not been developed, they could be either Te/Fe. I'm not sure this is "unhealthy" or the result of them not being dualised. They are just...different.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> Born unhealthy? That kinda sucks...


Well, it'd be a mixture of nature and nurture too.



> I wouldn't say he was naturally balanced. He has done _a lot _of work on himself, even before he met me. I'm not sure how it relates to self-dualising though; he just came to a point where he realized he needed to work on and develop emotional intelligence.


So, that's developing his Fi then. So he had to partially dualise himself to do that.



> Hmm. Could the same not apply to an LSE?
> 
> I noticed that sometimes all I can see in a person is the dominant function. Like, there are those who clearly seem to be ILIs (NiTe types), but then there are those that seem to be all Ni and not a lot else. It's almost like their Je-function has not been developed, they could be either Te/Fe. I'm not sure this is "unhealthy" or the result of them not being dualised. They are just...different.


I think they are probably different subtypes. Not everyone is going to be the same.

I know an ILI who appears heavy Ni-dom. His Te rarely shows itself, but it's definitely there, supporting his Ni. He's also an extremely healthy ILI- probably the healthiest I know.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ScarlettHayden said:


> So, that's developing his Fi then. So he had to partially dualise himself to do that.


I'm not sure Fi =emotional intelligence. I just figured it was a subjective rational processing filter. I know some pretty emotionally immature Fi-doms...

I'm not really sure how I, as an SEE, would "self-dualise". I mean, Ni is pretty insane and I definitely do need help with it at times.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> I'm not sure Fi =emotional intelligence. I just figured it was a subjective rational processing filter. I know some pretty emotionally immature Fi-doms...


True. I think lacking emotional intelligence just comes from being unbalanced and unintegrated in general, not just in the feeling functions.



> I'm not really sure how I, as an SEE, would "self-dualise". I mean, Ni is pretty insane and I definitely do need help with it at times.


How do you go about using it at the moment?


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ScarlettHayden said:


> How do you go about using it at the moment?


I don't "use" it...it's just..._there_. 

Ni brings depth. I'm not sure how much of this is related to be being a core 7 and needing to become more grounded and less "superficial". I have a better awareness of the flow of events and and the fluidity of life....if that makes sense. It gives experience meaning. 

The thought of a non-dualised SEE is kind of terrifying, tbh.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> I don't "use" it...it's just..._there_.
> 
> Ni brings depth. I'm not sure how much of this is related to be being a core 7 and needing to become more grounded and less "superficial". I have a better awareness of the flow of events and and the fluidity of life....if that makes sense. It gives experience meaning.
> 
> The thought of a non-dualised SEE is kind of terrifying, tbh.


Ni isn't really a grounded function. As we saw in the case of the unhealthy Ni, it can be extremely detached, due to it's perceiving nature. The grounded functions are going to be your extraverted rationals, like Te, Fe, ect. Ti is going to be more grounded than Ni, but not as grounded as Te.

Still, I'm aware of what you're saying. That having an undeveloped suggestive function is a cause of being unbalanced and not being fully in tune with things. 

So, you stated that you have a better awareness of the flow of events and the fluidity of life. Ni is a dynamic introverted function that sees imperceptible patterns between things. It can see how everything is related and connected. And as you said, it finds meaning for everything that it experiences. So, if you wanted to develop it more, I'd say try to find the underlying meaning to the things that you see. Try to observe things a little more and see how events might unfold, rather than being so in them.

It doesn't have to be anything huge or drastic. Me having a well developed Ni in my ego block, I can more or less foresee how the rest of my life is going to play out, and then some. But you'd want to start with something easier. Perhaps when you're watching a movie or something (easier to try it like this first), take a step back maybe half an hour through and 'imagine' how events would most likely play out. Don't try to analyse it, you have to imagine it.. finish the movie in your head, based on the information you have already seen. So you step outside the picture instead of being fully immersed in it, and track and predict the events, rather than becoming involved in them. Don't worry if you don't get your predictions right. Things are always changing. A thing about strong Ni types is that when new information comes in they automatically adjust their image of the future to reflect that new information. So their vision is always adjusting itself. If you want to become more advanced at Ni then you can try doing this throughout the movie too. But at first it's likely going to be easier to just make one prediction and stick with that.

Also, the more you can see how things connect through past, present, future, the more you will be able to find meaning in things. You can see that what will happen in future is a result of what has already taken place in the past. The meaning of the present and future is found in how everything unfolded to get you to the point you're at now, and will be at in the future.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Ni isn't really a grounded function. As we saw in the case of the unhealthy Ni, it can be extremely detached, due to it's perceiving nature. The grounded functions are going to be your extraverted rationals, like Te, Fe, ect. Ti is going to be more grounded than Ni, but not as grounded as Te.


I think when I say "grounded" it's more me trying to describe my experiences of it. Like, it makes me feel more internally grounded, if that makes sense. When something suddenly has meaning....it just makes everything feel more complete. It's very comforting, even.



> So, you stated that you have a better awareness of the flow of events and the fluidity of life. Ni is a dynamic introverted function that sees imperceptible patterns between things. It can see how everything is related and connected. And as you said, it finds meaning for everything that it experiences. So, if you wanted to develop it more, I'd say try to find the underlying meaning to the things that you see. Try to observe things a little more and see how events might unfold, rather than being so in them.


I think I do this already. Sometimes I'm not always aware of it though. It's also very hard for me to express such things...which is frustrating at times. 



> It doesn't have to be anything huge or drastic. Me having a well developed Ni in my ego block, I can more or less foresee how the rest of my life is going to play out, and then some. But you'd want to start with something easier. Perhaps when you're watching a movie or something (easier to try it like this first), take a step back maybe half an hour through and 'imagine' how events would most likely play out. Don't try to analyse it, you have to imagine it.. finish the movie in your head, based on the information you have already seen. So you step outside the picture instead of being fully immersed in it, and track and predict the events, rather than becoming involved in them. Don't worry if you don't get your predictions right. Things are always changing. A thing about strong Ni types is that when new information comes in they automatically adjust their image of the future to reflect that new information. So their vision is always adjusting itself. If you want to become more advanced at Ni then you can try doing this throughout the movie too. But at first it's likely going to be easier to just make one prediction and stick with that


How can you foresee how your life with enfold? Surely there are too many variables to take into account. Nature is random and doesn't give a fuck. At least, that's how I see it...

As you can see I struggle with the concept of this let alone even attempting to do so. 

Does it not sometimes feel a little unfulfilling...just...observing and "seeing" where the paths may/may not lead? Don't you want to actually _experience _stuff as well? 

I have such a blind-spot when it comes to understanding these things. This is why I rely on my bf to help me to do so. It's not completely foreign to me though; when he helps me understand it's more like he is helping me articulate some random abstract process that I'm already aware of but struggle to put it into words.



> Also, the more you can see how things connect through past, present, future, the more you will be able to find meaning in things. You can see that what will happen in future is a result of what has already taken place in the past. The meaning of the present and future is found in how everything unfolded to get you to the point you're at now, and will be at in the future.


I agree with this. This is how I perceive things, dualised or non-dualised.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> How can you foresee how your life with enfold? Surely there are too many variables to take into account. Nature is random and doesn't give a fuck. At least, that's how I see it...
> 
> As you can see I struggle with the concept of this let alone even attempting to do so.


Yeah, there are a lot of a variables, but I'm able to see most of them and make a general picture in my mind from that. Just like you're able to see all the details in something physical. I sometimes wonder "how do people do that".. because my Se is not in my ego block. I can't see physical things that clearly. But I can with intangible things. So that's the way you have to imagine it. I guess you could say, it's like being partially blind. You're blind to all the variables, I'm blind to all the details.

So I can say with surety, nature definitely isn't random  Sure, nature might not give a fuck, because pattern-analysis is an impersonal thing. Just like your Se is impersonal with its detail-spotting. But the inferior functions tend to be warped a little and we can tend to personalise them to understand them better.



> Does it not sometimes feel a little unfulfilling...just...observing and "seeing" where the paths may/may not lead? Don't you want to actually _experience _stuff as well?


It is unfulfilling for me. I couldn't be in my head all the time like that. It'd drive me crazy. My Se has me jumping out to experience things every so often (I'd say about half the time). For an Ni-dom though, I don't know. They may feel it fulfilling, even if they were balanced or self-dualised. I mean, if I were to consider whether Te is the most fulfilling for me or Fi (even being self-dualised), I would definitely say Te more than anything makes me feel fulfilled. It's the way my psyche works.

So for you, you'd likely always be happiest using Se. Developing Ni would just give your Se some expansiveness... allow it to be more grounded like you said, and better able to see the bigger picture. It will help Se feel more fulfilled, I think that's what I'm trying to say. Just like since developing my Fi my Te has felt much more fulfilled. So it supports the leading function when its developed, rather than takes energy away from it and corrupting the leading function like when it's undeveloped.



> I have such a blind-spot when it comes to understanding these things. This is why I rely on my bf to help me to do so. It's not completely foreign to me though; when he helps me understand it's more like he is helping me articulate some random abstract process that I'm already aware of but struggle to put it into words.


I've found that even as an Ni creative Ni is generally a really hard thing to express. Which I why I avoid expressing it. Everything it contains goes through my Te for interpretation and expression. Sometimes I can be caught off guard, like the other day I was in a situation where a friend asked me a question and I was plunged into my Ni-Fi.. I became speechless and didn't know how to express what I wanted to express. Like, I understood it internally, but trying to explain was really hard. I had to take a step back and compose myself and then loop it all back through my Te. I don't know if it's the same in Ni doms or whether they can express their abstractions fine whenever they want to, but in yours and my case, the leading extraverted function is like an interface with the world with which we can express the rest of our psyche through.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of a variables, but I'm able to see most of them and make a general picture in my mind from that. Just like you're able to see all the details in something physical. I sometimes wonder "how do people do that".. because my Se is not in my ego block._* I can't see physical things that clearly. But I can with intangible things. So that's the way you have to imagine it*_. I guess you could say, it's like being partially blind. You're blind to all the variables, I'm blind to all the details.
> 
> So I can say with surety, nature definitely isn't random  Sure, nature might not give a fuck, because pattern-analysis is an impersonal thing. Just like your Se is impersonal with its detail-spotting. But the inferior functions tend to be warped a little and we can tend to personalise them to understand them better.


The bit in bold blows my mind a little...wish I could experience that for a day. The only thing tangible I can relate it to is tripping on LSD or something. 

Hmm...you know, I'm pretty terrible with details, tbh. I'm just very _to the point._ I find SiNe and NeSi types to be more detailed-focused than me. Or at least, that's how I perceive it. That kind of cognition hurts my head a little. 



> It is unfulfilling for me. I couldn't be in my head all the time like that. It'd drive me crazy. My Se has me jumping out to experience things every so often (I'd say about half the time). For an Ni-dom though, I don't know. They may feel it fulfilling, even if they were balanced or self-dualised. I mean, if I were to consider whether Te is the most fulfilling for me or Fi (even being self-dualised), I would definitely say Te more than anything makes me feel fulfilled. It's the way my psyche works.
> 
> So for you, you'd likely always be happiest using Se. Developing Ni would just give your Se some expansiveness... allow it to be more grounded like you said, and better able to see the bigger picture. It will help Se feel more fulfilled, I think that's what I'm trying to say. Just like since developing my Fi my Te has felt much more fulfilled. So it supports the leading function when its developed, rather than takes energy away from it and corrupting the leading function like when it's undeveloped.


Se seems to energize Ni-doms. It works better in person than online/via text...I've found. 

Yes, I agree with this. Ni does bring me a sense of fulfillment.



> I've found that even as an Ni creative Ni is generally a really hard thing to express. Which I why I avoid expressing it. Everything it contains goes through my Te for interpretation and expression. Sometimes I can be caught off guard, like the other day I was in a situation where a friend asked me a question and I was plunged into my Ni-Fi.. I became speechless and didn't know how to express what I wanted to express. Like, I understood it internally, but trying to explain was really hard. I had to take a step back and compose myself and then loop it all back through my Te. I don't know if it's the same in Ni doms or whether they can express their abstractions fine whenever they want to, but in yours and my case, the leading extraverted function is like an interface with the world with which we can express the rest of our psyche through.


I think my bf relies a lot on Te to express Ni. He uses maths a lot to try and explain things to me. He's an engineer and often he uses that language to communicate what he sees.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Kintsugi said:


> I think my bf relies a lot on Te to express Ni. He uses maths a lot to try and explain things to me. He's an engineer and often he uses that language to communicate what he sees.


Interesting, I do something like that but with chemistry or biology as I know those sciences better. Reminds me of when I used a reaction diagram for trolling purposes lol


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Blue Flare said:


> Interesting, I do something like that but with chemistry or biology as I know those sciences better. Reminds me of when I used a reaction diagram for trolling purposes lol


My bf often helps me solve personal and emotional problems with his knowledge of engineering. I guess I'm just another "system" for him to modify/fix. XD


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

An ILI who only uses the ego block will be narcissistic, detached and not seeing other people as being any different from dead objects.



Kintsugi said:


> My bf often helps me solve personal and emotional problems with his knowledge of engineering. I guess I'm just another "system" for him to modify/fix. XD


This, but a lot worse. Will also see his body as a burden or just ignoe it.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Bash said:


> This, but a lot worse. Will also see his body as a burden or just ignoe it.


I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with my bf seeing me as a system. In fact, it turns me on. :kitteh:


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Blue Flare said:


> Reminds me of when I used a reaction diagram for trolling purposes lol


I've gotta admit, I posted that one on Facebook and all my friends found it hilarious. If we're talking about the same one, I was involved in its creation, too :3 (at least 5%)


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Kintsugi said:


> I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with my bf seeing me as a system. In fact, it turns me on. :kitteh:


Worse as in "more of".


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Is it ILI's specifically you want to understand? Well, if you want a concrete example- an ILI isn't gonna care about what anyone else thinks.


Stereotype behavior. I fail to see what this has anything to do with ILI. 



> They're gonna be completely in their heads.


What does it mean "to be in one's head"? Another stereotype. 



> The real world would give them dread- underdeveloped Se gives a fear that things will be boring and lifeless.


And this is a shitty understanding of what Se is, tbh.



> There's not really any pleasure to be found in anything tangible.


Again, shitty understanding. It's not about pleasure. 



> The world is overwhelming and they may retreat to hermit mode.


Yeah, sounds like a sp 5 or 9, not an ILI. 



> They'd be disconnected and maybe eccentric because their theories won't have enough solid data backing them up.


Stereotype behavior not at all associated with and connected to Ni and Te and Fi and Se. 



> They can theorise the information they need to work with in order to make their actual theory.. none of it's real.


Sounds more alpha NT than gamma NT to me. Gamma NTs are much more concerned about theoretical application and that theory actually _works_.



> So they'd probably be prone to bizarre ways to thinking and behaving- schizotypal and schizoid personality disorders wouldn't be too far off the mark.


WTF? 



> Somehow an ILI could continue to survive like this though, despite any pressures on them from the external world. Though to be honest, 'survive' would probably be more like "I live in a hole but I can't see any of it because all I see is what's inside my head". They might be prone to blending or overlapping reality with fantasy, for example, that tea cup sitting on the table top isn't actually a tea cup, but it's some other made up thing from another planet..


lol, this isn't Ni. This is just reality-removal. 



> they may actually 'see' that rather than the thing that's actually in front of them.


This is the only thing you've actually touched on that captures what sensation vis-a-vis intuition is about. 



> Of course this would probably be in case of a really unhealthy ILI, but it should give you an idea.


"Unhealthy" is an understatement.



Bash said:


> An ILI who only uses the ego block will be narcissistic, detached and not seeing other people as being any different from dead objects.


WTF x2. Can you people gtfo if all you is coming in here and making broad stereotypal remarks about what an ILI is and isn't without even capturing the actual psychological reality of the ILI cognition lol.


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> WTF x2. Can you people gtfo if all you is coming in here and making broad stereotypal remarks about what an ILI is and isn't without even capturing the actual psychological reality of the ILI cognition lol.


Fair enough. What are they like?


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Amaterasu said:


> I've gotta admit, I posted that one on Facebook and all my friends found it hilarious. If we're talking about the same one, I was involved in its creation, too :3 (at least 5%)


Yeah, I'm talking about the one that had the soluble in BS and soluble in Ni parameters and all the salts that we created lol


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Blue Flare said:


> Yeah, I'm talking about the one that had the soluble in BS and soluble in Ni parameters and all the salts that we created lol


Never forget the great InTT salt.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Amaterasu said:


> Never forget the great InTT salt.


Yep, it was the salt that was the most soluble in BS lmao.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bash said:


> Fair enough. What are they like?


Not "what are they *like*" but "how do they *think*".


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

ILI not dualized, huh?

I think that would be me. But I don't know how much of my behaviour can be explained by my ILI typing so I wouldn't think to parade myself around as an example. I can give some insight into my thought processes and maybe that will be enough.

I tire easily in very emotive environments, more so if they are positive than negative. I can't seem to judge whether or not someone's friendliness is real or not, so I tend to reject it. It's not that I think they are doing it out of malice, but I don't find any comfort in shallow relations. In a crowd, I'm likely to be on the sidelines, either observing the goings on with detachment or thinking about something else entirely, likely my stories. When someone disturbs me during one of these moments I can become irritated, it often seems jarring coming back to myself. Having to form sentences, and pay attention to my tone and the other person... making sure I don't make them into an enemy on accident. I don't like feeling pressured to "join the fun" especially. If someone comes next to me to sit and relax, I find it easier to transition into speech. I can become verbose by the simple fact that they will actually listen. This is more noticeable when I have known them longer. With new people who want me to express an emotion I'm not feeling, I become clipped. Mostly saying nothing if I can help it.

I think dualization would even out those rough edges of my personality. Though I can't be sure.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Elyasis said:


> ILI not dualized, huh?
> 
> I think that would be me. But I don't know how much of my behaviour can be explained by my ILI typing so I wouldn't think to parade myself around as an example. I can give some insight into my thought processes and maybe that will be enough.
> 
> ...


I relate to all the bolded, and for me it's a side-effect of my social introversion, so I dunno how much of it is exclusively for undualized ILIs because I happen to be a dualized SEE. 

However, it's possible that this stuff for me is caused out of social introversion, whereas for _you_, the cause may be different, of course ^^


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Not "what are they *like*" but "how do they *think*".


Alright. If you prefer that question. How does un-dualized ILI think?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bash said:


> Alright. If you prefer that question. How does un-dualized ILI think?


A non-dualized ILI would be less adept prone towards utilizing Se, which would mean, especially in a socionics sense, a lack of cognitive focus on how to manipulate the external world through force e.g. how to move, how to push, where to pull, how to impress but it also extends to the sensory environment in general meaning awareness of physical surroundings, paying attention to detail and physical experience.


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> A non-dualized ILI would be less adept prone towards utilizing Se, which would mean, especially in a socionics sense, a lack of cognitive focus on how to manipulate the external world through force e.g. how to move, how to push, where to pull, how to impress but it also extends to the sensory environment in general meaning awareness of physical surroundings, paying attention to detail and physical experience.


This is a better desciption than mine. How would it manifest, behaviorwise?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bash said:


> This is a better desciption than mine. How would it manifest, behaviorwise?


I don't like to really describe behaviors in the first place, but it may for example show up as poor conflict-management, poor attention to sensory detail e.g. how to dress, noticing stains, spots, unappreciation of physical pleasure e.g. food, comfort, difficult time knowing how to mobilize oneself and/or people, act on the moment etc.


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> I don't like to really describe behaviors in the first place, but it may for example show up as poor conflict-management, poor attention to sensory detail e.g. how to dress, noticing stains, spots, unappreciation of physical pleasure e.g. food, comfort, difficult time knowing how to mobilize oneself and/or people, act on the moment etc.


I realize that behavior is a lot more difficult to predict and less static then cognition. Thank you.


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> I don't like to really describe behaviors in the first place, but it may for example show up as poor conflict-management, poor attention to sensory detail e.g. how to dress, noticing stains, spots, unappreciation of physical pleasure e.g. food, comfort, difficult time knowing how to mobilize oneself and/or people, act on the moment etc.


+
Since ILI and LIE have the same functions in their ego-block, what would the difference be, in this case? Lack of Fi vs lack of Se?


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

This place is like an ILI brothel.

Where all the other types be at?


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

I believe I'm an undualized EII? But I'm not sure, possibly IEE.

I have a tendency to lose track of my goals, and in fact not even truly understand them. I have this motivation to realize my potential but little idea as to what my clear endpoint is. I'm confused about what my capacities and limitations are, I don't really feel equipped to attack anything from a practical standpoint. I do things meticulously and slowly and probably waste a lot of energy on details of little importance because I'm not clear on what priority means. I'm always unsure of whether or not I'm making progress in my work, and how quickly and effectively I'm doing so.

I'd really appreciate someone in my life to advise me very concretely in these regards. My boyfriend's Te is helpful to an extent but he's not a very concrete guy (ILI) ^^ Hopefully I will make a Delta ST friend somewhere down the line but I haven't met one who is open to my side of the duality yet.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bash said:


> +
> Since ILI and LIE have the same functions in their ego-block, what would the difference be, in this case? Lack of Fi vs lack of Se?


Not lack of, but maturity of, but I'd argue the biggest difference is rationality versus irrationality.


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Not lack of, but maturity of, but I'd argue the biggest difference is rationality versus irrationality.


How would immaturity in a LIE manifest?


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Bash said:


> How would immaturity in a LIE manifest?


Are we equating non-dualization with immaturity now?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bash said:


> How would immaturity in a LIE manifest?


Not maturity or immaturity of the person, but maturity of sophistication of the elements.


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Not maturity or immaturity of the person, but maturity of sophistication of the elements.


What you described with the un-dualed ILI sounded like bad Se. How would the same situation be for LIE?


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

Merry blues said:


> Are we equating non-dualization with immaturity now?


Semantics are not important. What I was asking for a similar desciption as the problems the ILI would experience, but with the LIE.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Merry blues said:


> Are we equating non-dualization with immaturity now?


I'm not convinced all of this stuff is even related to dualization, tbh. Types come in different flavors. I asked the question because I was wandering, what, if any, relation there was...


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Kintsugi said:


> I'm not convinced all of this stuff is even related to dualization, tbh. Types come in different flavors. I asked the question because I was wandering what it meant myself...


Having never experienced duality I don't know how much of it is true but I can imagine how closely interacting with a 4D version of your DS could help improve it. Since 1D functions can only rely on experience, it broadens the range of that experience through simple exposure, so I do think there's a difference between dualized and non-dualized types, regardless of their flavor.

It's kinda beautiful that by developing a base we unconsciously respond to what compliments it, like we're looking to be whole again. It was a good question ^^


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Merry blues said:


> Having never experienced duality I don't know how much of it is true but I can imagine how closely interacting with a 4D version of your DS could help improve it. Since 1D functions can only rely on experience, it broadens the range of that experience through simple exposure, so I do think there's a difference between dualized and non-dualized types, regardless of their flavor.
> 
> It's kinda beautiful that by developing a base we unconsciously respond to what compliments it, like we're looking to be whole again. It was a good question ^^


I think there is a difference too...I'm just not sure how to recognize it; especially when other factors confuse me further such as the influence of Enneagram, instinctual stacking, and sub-types (if you buy into that stuff, that is), etc. I guess the key is learning to recognize the pattern in cognition not behavior. I just haven't quite worked out how this differs when it comes to dualized/non-dualized people of the same type.

I'm in a relationship with my dual and it is pretty awesome. ^_^


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