# [ADVICE] Declining a Kid’s Birthday Party or When They Use Children to Get to You



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

*TLDR: How to decline a sensitive child's birthday invitation without saying, "I don't want to go." or "I don't like your toxic father."*

There's a little girl in my neighborhood who I've been unofficially tutoring for about a year now. She comes to my apartment maybe once or twice a week for homework help. Sometimes she brings her little brother and we play arts and crafts together. So I know these kids well and like them both. They see me as an older sister.

Problem is, I don't like their father. I used to spend time with the whole family and go over there at least once or twice a week before I noticed:


The dad can't take no for an answer, even on the smallest of choices such as food, drink, and invites
He has asked me multiple times for the days and hours that I work
He orders the mom around, even when she's got her hands full with something else
He laughs at how the mom became depressed after giving birth. She looks so embarrassed and humiliated
He puts down the daughter, telling her how slow and stupid she is.
He calls the daughter chubby and fat. This isn't abnormal for their culture.

Ever since the kids' last birthdays, I have not gone back in their house. I limit my contact with both mom and dad, but continue to hang out with the kids. This has mostly worked out well. Except for once when the dad came home early and saw me heading to the laundry and decided that he also needed to do laundry that day. There he told me, "It's a miracle to see you."

It's time for the girl's birthday next month and I don't want to go. We live in such a close community that everyone sees everything. It's clear when I'm home and when I'm not, so I'm not confident that I can lie about this. The girl actually asked me would I be joining her birthday dinner a little over a month ago--a whole 3 months early! She was kind of like desperately asking and whiney and slightly in a panic and worried and clingy. I couldn't understand it. Maybe she knows I don't want to go. 

How can I handle this responsibly?


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

So here's what you do. Invite someone over to stay at your house. Let people know you've done so so they know you're not alone in attending this party. Go, for her. Fuck her dad, and if it's awkward or not. She's the one that needs support not you, or her father. Show up with a gift, show support, then duck out if you need to. Make it clear from the start you couldn't stay long, but wanted to anyway.


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## MsMojiMoe (Apr 7, 2021)

you could just suck it up, and go for her ( depends what your limits are…this the easiest way) ….but I wouldn’t be friendly to him at all, I avoid him even if he spoke to me….even a hello just ignore and walk by…or say I only came to support her on her bday If he tries to speak to you, dont smile at him at all, if he does start mistreating ppl….say well that’s my cue, sorry dear, I must go, I hope you have a very happy bday…i wouldn’t pretend …but this would feel more about responding to him and not her bday. …but maybe it will be one of his good day…

if it was me…
I would just be upfront….like just tell her the truth without being too specific….it’s life that we don’t always get along with ppl….( teaching moment by just being real ) I just sit down with her and say without naming her father, just said there is a reason I don’t go to your house anymore and it has nothing to do with you, sometimes ppl don’t get along and it best to keep some distance…but I tell you what, we can have our own celebration….and around her b-day, give her your gift maybe with a cupcake (if allowed), gets fun strings stuff confetti and just spend a little time celebrating her bday together,….. since you still spend time with them already…and just do it that way. Kids understand a lot…way more than adults give them credit for…i wouldn’t care about his feelings or anyone who aids that behaviors and I would throw back at them if they dare speak against me…treat ppl better, ..I can’t aid that kind behavior, it’s saying It’s ok, I don’t care about culture when someone is hurting another, nor their gods, nor jobs…only care how we treat each other and aiding/ignoring bad behavior is giving a free pass and making it easier and easier for them to act that way, …i get we have to let ppl be themselves and raised their own family, but doesn’t mean you have to aid by pretending everything is cool, when it’s a blatant lie…Can’t change their family, but you can be truthful and hold true to your principles/beliefs/feelings and not give in to his way…you’re not saving the kid by giving in, either…teaching her behaviors have consequences without actually teaches with word but by action...by being real. ….but that’s what I would do. And I have lived among different cultures.…I do believe in respect but ends when i See harm….


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Oh this is easy. 

Be busy, BUT get her a thoughtful present to show HER you put consideration into her. Yeah definitely keep that boundary. That story was pretty cringe. You do not deserve to be subjected to that.


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## Quatz3 (3 mo ago)

I didn’t read OP. (Sorry bout that, rushed response on a mobile device yikes)


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

Is your employment situation such that you could claim to have one or more WFH meetings to attend?

Dude sounds like the average Latin American cad. Yikes.


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

Sounds like the daughter really likes you and wants your presence at the party. Maybe in some way you help to buffer the tension she feels re: her mother and father? Regardless - I would generally limit my time at their house during the year (and continue to invite her to mine), but might make an exception once a year for their birthday parties. In this situation I might go and really limit any conversation with the father, but just be cordial for the sake of the party. 

It's sad to hear how the father is with his wife and children, though. How old is the girl? Do you ever talk with her about her father's comments towards her? Hopefully it's not affecting her self esteem.


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

OrchidSugar said:


> *TLDR: How to decline a sensitive child's birthday invitation without saying, "I don't want to go." or "I don't like your toxic father."*
> 
> There's a little girl in my neighborhood who I've been unofficially tutoring for about a year now. She comes to my apartment maybe once or twice a week for homework help. Sometimes she brings her little brother and we play arts and crafts together. So I know these kids well and like them both. They see me as an older sister.
> 
> ...


Sad. I've been in similar. The girl might sense your stability.

Best course of action would probably be to let them understand in advance you'll attend but only for a very short while. Bring her a gift. Talk to her specifically and directly. Then leave after a short while. 

As for the wife, maybe casually suggest/present the topic of joining some sort of club or community group (this will serve as an outlet/counter for her crazy husband). Not good when someone is stuck like that with a crazy spouse/parent. They need a healthy community to interact with, otherwise they are at high risk of becoming mentally scarred.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

*UPDATE: I will start responding to your advice soon. Thank you. But just wanted to also mention how little regard the man has for my time*. As I was typing this yesterday, ironically, he called my phone. It was on do not disturb. The girl left me a message needing help with homework wanted to come over immediately. But it was not the day that she usually comes over. And we are into a routine now where she calls an hour or so beforehand to ask my permission to come over.

For some reason the dad was home early yesterday. When i didn’t answer the call from his number, they called me 7 minutes later on the mom’s number. When I didn’t answer this, he brought the girl to my front porch and I could hear the engine of his truck. Clearly he was going somewhere and needed a babysitter. He could not take no for an answer and it didn’t even occur to him that he should make plans in advance and take my time into consideration.

I don’t like him teaching his children these behaviors, that whenever they get the notion I should drop whatever I’m doing and accommodate them. I did not go to the door and only returned their call a few hours later to say I wasn’t available that evening and could help another day.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

OrchidSugar said:


> *UPDATE: I will start responding to your advice soon. Thank you. But just wanted to also mention how little regard the man has for my time*. As I was typing this yesterday, ironically, he called my phone. It was on do not disturb. The girl left me a message needing help with homework wanted to come over immediately. But it was not the day that she usually comes over. And we are into a routine now where she calls an hour or so beforehand to ask my permission to come over.
> 
> For some reason the dad was home early yesterday. When i didn’t answer the call from his number, they called me 7 minutes later on the mom’s number. When I didn’t answer this, he brought the girl to my front porch and I could hear the engine of his truck. Clearly he was going somewhere and needed a babysitter. He could not take no for an answer and it didn’t even occur to him that he should make plans in advance and take my time into consideration.
> 
> I don’t like him teaching his children these behaviors, that whenever they get the notion I should drop whatever I’m doing and accommodate them. I did not go to the door and only returned their call a few hours later to say I wasn’t available that evening and could help another day.


That seems very extra...
Why is the man so fixated on you? Or is he like this with everyone?


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Ms. Aligned said:


> So here's what you do. Invite someone over to stay at your house. Let people know you've done so so they know you're not alone in attending this party. Go, for her. Fuck her dad, and if it's awkward or not. She's the one that needs support not you, or her father. Show up with a gift, show support, then duck out if you need to. Make it clear from the start you couldn't stay long, but wanted to anyway.


That's a good idea. To bring a guest. I could try to bring a friend, but that person would need to speak the language. Not yet sure who I can ask. 



MsMojiMoe said:


> you could just suck it up, and go for her ( depends what your limits are…this the easiest way) ….but I wouldn’t be friendly to him at all, I avoid him even if he spoke to me….even a hello just ignore and walk by…or say I only came to support her on her bday If he tries to speak to you, dont smile at him at all, if he does start mistreating ppl….say well that’s my cue, sorry dear, I must go, I hope you have a very happy bday…i wouldn’t pretend …but this would feel more about responding to him and not her bday. …but maybe it will be one of his good day…





Zeri said:


> Sounds like the daughter really likes you and wants your presence at the party. Maybe in some way you help to buffer the tension she feels re: her mother and father? Regardless - I would generally limit my time at their house during the year (and continue to invite her to mine), but might make an exception once a year for their birthday parties. In this situation I might go and really limit any conversation with the father, but just be cordial for the sake of the party.


It's more intimate than a party. It's more like a dinner with cake. The last time it was me, the kids and parents, and one aunt and uncle. It will be mostly hard to avoid him around a dinner table.



MsMojiMoe said:


> if it was me…
> I would just be upfront….like just tell her the truth without being too specific….it’s life that we don’t always get along with ppl….( teaching moment by just being real ) I just sit down with her and say without naming her father, just said there is a reason I don’t go to your house anymore and it has nothing to do with you, sometimes ppl don’t get along and it best to keep some distance…but I tell you what, we can have our own celebration….and around her b-day, give her your gift maybe with a cupcake (if allowed), gets fun strings stuff confetti and just spend a little time celebrating her bday together,….. since you still spend time with them already…and just do it that way. Kids understand a lot…way more than adults give them credit for…i wouldn’t care about his feelings or anyone who aids that behaviors and I would throw back at them if they dare speak against me…treat ppl better, ..I can’t aid that kind behavior, it’s saying It’s ok, I don’t care about culture when someone is hurting another, nor their gods, nor jobs…only care how we treat each other and aiding/ignoring bad behavior is giving a free pass and making it easier and easier for them to act that way, …i get we have to let ppl be themselves and raised their own family, but doesn’t mean you have to aid by pretending everything is cool, when it’s a blatant lie…Can’t change their family, but you can be truthful and hold true to your principles/beliefs/feelings and not give in to his way…you’re not saving the kid by giving in, either…teaching her behaviors have consequences without actually teaches with word but by action...by being real. ….but that’s what I would do. And I have lived among different cultures.…I do believe in respect but ends when i See harm….


I hesitate to disparage a child's parent. And I know what you're saying, kind of talk around the issue. But everything I say to her always gets back to her family. No matter how insignificant. If I said this openly, or even in a round about way, I'm sure it would be grounds for both parents to stop letting the kids visit. I also try not to encourage his behavior, but I think I may not have held proper boundaries in the beginning. When I heard him call her stupid, I said that she is doing well in her studies and improving everyday. Due to the language barrier, I'm sure way more things were going over my head. And I didn't "check" him the way I should have.



0.M.I.A.0 said:


> Oh this is easy.
> 
> Be busy, BUT get her a thoughtful present to show HER you put consideration into her. Yeah definitely keep that boundary. That story was pretty cringe. You do not deserve to be subjected to that.





Necrofantasia said:


> Is your employment situation such that you could claim to have one or more WFH meetings to attend?
> 
> Dude sounds like the average Latin American cad. Yikes.


I'm leaning very heavily to just being busy. I could say it was a work-related thing, but a meeting wouldn't be very believable because the dinner will probably take place as late as 8pm. I might still tell the lie. Unfortunately, I cannot tell the girl this too soon, because she will tell her family and he will more than likely change the day of the birthday dinner to "accommodate" my schedule. Ugh. 



Zeri said:


> It's sad to hear how the father is with his wife and children, though. How old is the girl? Do you ever talk with her about her father's comments towards her? Hopefully it's not affecting her self esteem.


The girl is 10. I think she might have tried to open up to me about her father early on when we first met, but I invalidated her, thinking she was just a little girl annoyed at her dad for disciplining her. I think it does affect her self-esteem, as your parents' voice becomes your negative self-talk. It has made tutoring her really difficult this year, because when she doesn't know how to do something she will whine, "I just can't do that. It's hard. I'm too stupid for that. Can you just tell me?" I tell her that she's not stupid, and that she can improve anything with practice. I do not give children the answers, I try to teach them how to solve through the problem. I ask, why do you think you are dumb? She says, mostly my dad tells me that all the time when I do something silly. I say, I don't think you are dumb. I have seen you improve. How many times has your dad helped you with language arts and reading? And how many times have I helped you? She says, well my dad doesn't speak English soooo...

So she has some inherent self-worth issues, and I'm really worried how she tries to go the easy route and cheat her way through things. She can't read a word by sounding out, just sees the first two letters and tries to guess what it says. She tries to memorize words and names instead of using phonics. Instead of reading the story and checking comprehension, she goes straight to the multiple choice questions and tries to fill in the vocab words using guessing and process of elimination. Yet she can't pronounce any of the vocab words and doesn't know what they mean. Three weeks ago I found out that the girl does not know how to tie her own shoes. She's 10! I looked down and saw that she was wearing athletic sneaker type shoes with no laces, just stretchy fabric. I was floored.



SgtPepper said:


> Sad. I've been in similar. The girl might sense your stability.
> 
> Best course of action would probably be to let them understand in advance you'll attend but only for a very short while. Bring her a gift. Talk to her specifically and directly. Then leave after a short while.
> 
> As for the wife, maybe casually suggest/present the topic of joining some sort of club or community group (this will serve as an outlet/counter for her crazy husband). Not good when someone is stuck like that with a crazy spouse/parent. They need a healthy community to interact with, otherwise they are at high risk of becoming mentally scarred.


To be honest, I'm not sure I know how to be a good role model to these kids. And they have some behaviors they are picking up from their father that I'm not sure if I'm catching them and disciplining them correctly and consistently. It's very hard to model good behavior when I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Once I found out what was happening, I tried showing support for the wife. I went to her house the next day and invited her to come with me on a walking trail. I did not ask directly about the husband, but I think she knew that I knew. She said to me half joking, "The girl says when she gets older she will get a job and buy a house and everyone is invited to live in it except her father." The mother is a stay at home mom. Also doesn't speak English. Doesn't work. Has a car that she never ever drives. It sits in the parking lot untouched. But I do think that she has friends. Lots of the folks who live in my neighborhood speak her language and she meets parents of other students. 

As I was saying in an earlier response, everything I say to the kids gets back to the family. I mentioned to them how I was going to a free yoga class offered in the neighborhood. The boy kept hinting that his mom would like yoga. "My mom says she would like to go to yoga with you." "She can come," I said. But I never invited her directly, since she never asked directly. Just using the children to send little messages my way. The same thing happened when I bought a new printer. The next time he came over the boy said, "My mom would love it if you could teach her how to print things." 

Basically, I would have been more neighborly and friendly with the mom, but I don't want to keep getting further enmeshed with this family. I already see the kids like once or twice a week. I know it sounds bad, but I'm just being honest. I don't want everyone to start seeing me, my house, or my resources as a safehaven or a refuge. And I can't have my alone time encroached on too much, I start going feral. 



Necrofantasia said:


> That seems very extra...
> Why is the man so fixated on you? Or is he like this with everyone?


The verbal put downs and the ordering the mom around, he does that with everyone. But some things are unique to me, like him constantly asking my schedule, his truck lurking near where I catch the bus for work, and him popping up at the laundry as if waiting there to see me. My only guess is that I smile too much and act too innocent. That and I spend a ridiculous amount of time alone, so I must just look like an easy target.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

After having to explain to others everything I've witnessed / experienced with this family, I think it's clear that I am not well, lol. Maybe I should have just cold turkey dropped everyone in this family, including the kids. Now I'm all enmeshed. Worrying about things that normal healthy people wouldn't give a second thought to. I feel kind of dumb af and I could definitely benefit from some therapy to figure out why do I feel a sense of responsibility for this kid's grades and mental health when I can barely manage my own life. Ugh!


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

OrchidSugar said:


> That's a good idea. To bring a guest. I could try to bring a friend, but that person would need to speak the language. Not yet sure who I can ask.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm 99% sure that counts as stalker behaviour 
That's majorly scary. Do you live alone? Please be safe.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Necrofantasia said:


> I'm 99% sure that counts as stalker behaviour
> That's majorly scary. Do you live alone? Please be safe.


Luckily everyone sees everything where I live. Everyone knows everything. There is a big family living next door to me. They also tried to adopt me at one point. I also have family members of my own. I'm just an extreme introvert. I think he was mostly trying to put himself in a position to offer me a ride to work in the beginning. But these days I don't worry about it because I have a different work arrangement and don't talk to him at all.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> *TLDR: How to decline a sensitive child's birthday invitation without saying, "I don't want to go." or "I don't like your toxic father."*
> 
> There's a little girl in my neighborhood who I've been unofficially tutoring for about a year now. She comes to my apartment maybe once or twice a week for homework help. Sometimes she brings her little brother and we play arts and crafts together. So I know these kids well and like them both. They see me as an older sister.
> 
> ...


You can't only see the kids without the parents, it's a package deal until kid turns 18. Also if the daughter really is fat then what are you going to tell her that fat = good? In Asia fat shamming is a common method to ensure your kids are fit and healthy hence why Asians living in Asia are rarely fat.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> You can't only see the kids without the parents, it's a package deal until kid turns 18. Also if the daughter really is fat then what are you going to tell her that fat = good? In Asia fat shamming is a common method to ensure your kids are fit and healthy hence why Asians living in Asia are rarely fat.


I appreciate your perspective, but this is America. The girl is chubby, but the Dad himself is very fat and objectively unattractive. The girl is signed up for an after school running program, and plays outside with neighborhood friends the old school way. The dad doesn’t exercise, and drinks like a fish.

I’m also told that the girl has some mild health issue. Language barrier complicates things, but I think it involves not properly digesting flour or something. Maybe like a gluten intolerance? Or insulin resistance? I don’t know well. But there are many foods she simply won’t eat. Last year he bought her a cake for her birthday, she refused to eat it saying she doesn’t like cake. Any time I have offered her candy or little sweets she gives it to her brother.

Personally I don’t like shame and guilt to motivate children out of their weaknesses, but I can see how it would be effective and efficient in the short term. Kids raised this way can fall into two traps: either believing they are inherently worthless and incapable of defying their own nature to improve themselves or they use the shame as a motivator for overwork, and some commit suicide when they fail to live up to their parents’ ideals. This is especially true in East Asia.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> The girl is chubby, but the Dad himself is very fat and objectively unattractive. The girl is signed up for an after school running program, and plays outside with neighborhood friends the old school way. The dad doesn’t exercise, and drinks like a fish.


I don't think it matters whether the dad is a 1000kg obese health disease or 70kg pro athlete coz say that the dad was a drug addict and he tells his daughter not to do drugs coz it's the right thing to do, would you even bother mentioning that the dad is a drug addict himself and therefore shouldn't tell his daughter to better? A long time ago, I used to be defensive, when people critiqued me on what I did or my behavior, my first thought was well what about you? Can you do better? or who are you to tell me? Emotionally it makes sense but logically theres no point, if its true it's true whether the person who told you follows that advice or not.



OrchidSugar said:


> Personally I don’t like shame and guilt to motivate children out of their weaknesses, but I can see how it would be effective and efficient in the short term. Kids raised this way can fall into two traps: either believing they are inherently worthless and incapable of defying their own nature to improve themselves or they use the shame as a motivator for overwork, and some commit suicide when they fail to live up to their parents’ ideals. This is especially true in East Asia.


As someone who grew up with Asian parents I can tell you that I believe that I'm inherently worthless so I fall into 1 of your traps but how is this false? In Asia the general populace IS inherently worthless. The CCP sees their citizens as numbers on a piece of paper and don't give 2 fks about what happens to them and should you defy the govt, you disappear. Secondly, competition is fierce and expectation are high (due to the fierce competition) so it's a never ending loop. You are judged based on your abilities and value you bring to your family and society. If you do poorly or a failure, you are worthless so theres no logical fallacy in saying that you are inherently worthless since you need to prove your worth and value.

But I don't see this as good or bad, it's simply how the world works, you can either expect the world to change for you or you can adapt and change to your environment. Those who are unable to adapt and change to their environment will end up dead either by the environment or suicide, this just proves you weren't cut out for this world, the weak die and the strong survive. Whats wrong with people who can't cope or deal with reality deciding to leave it? I think that if you're over sensitive towards your kids, baby them too much and let them grow up to become snowflakes, they're going to be essentially useless and in turn also worthless.

I think that everyone is inherently worthless or at least seen as a liability until you prove your value in the world, until then, strife, work hard, educate and be better. When I as a kid I knew I was a liability, I provided no value to my family nor society, all I did was take and I never gave back, as I got older and learnt enough skills to be useful, got a job and started to give back, I started adding value and once I paid back all my debts I changed from a liability to an asset, I've proved my worth and value.

So my point is, so what if I believe I was a liability or inherently worthless? That essentially gives you a goal and motivation to pay back your debts to your parents and society (tax payers) instead of being a drifter with no aim in life, not knowing wtf to do with their life and being a liability all the time. I've seen too many spoiled kids these days, either living on their parents money or tax payers money, self worth and esteem higher than Donald Trump, has no idea they're even a liability, bored out of their minds coz they're not doing anything productive, many are constantly drinking or on drugs, probably depressed as hell, I bet this all stemmed from their parents being too "politically correct" and being supportive of anything they can think of, kids are fking stupid, they make retarded decisions, you gotta guide them onto the right path.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

ENTJudgement said:


> You can't only see the kids without the parents, it's a package deal until kid turns 18. Also if the daughter really is fat then what are you going to tell her that fat = good? In Asia fat shamming is a common method to ensure your kids are fit and healthy hence why Asians living in Asia are rarely fat.












LMFAO


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Necrofantasia said:


> View attachment 910239
> 
> 
> LMFAO


If you can't see how this "You can't only see the kids without the parents, it's a package deal until kid turns 18" doesn't relate to the point of "*TLDR: How to decline a sensitive child's birthday invitation without saying, "I don't want to go." or "I don't like your toxic father." *Then you may need to get off w/e drugs you're on mate. Like which part do you not get, the part that essentially states you can't go see other people's kids without their parents permission or the kid needs to be over 18 to be able to decide shit themselves?


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> After having to explain to others everything I've witnessed / experienced with this family, I think it's clear that I am not well, lol. Maybe I should have just cold turkey dropped everyone in this family, including the kids. Now I'm all enmeshed. Worrying about things that normal healthy people wouldn't give a second thought to. I feel kind of dumb af and I could definitely benefit from some therapy to figure out why do I feel a sense of responsibility for this kid's grades and mental health when I can barely manage my own life. Ugh!


Just INFP things? But in all seriousness I think this is a specialized case that can only be solved by determining the kid's MBTI type. Ok I'll shut up now.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

ENTJudgement said:


> If you can't see how this "You can't only see the kids without the parents, it's a package deal until kid turns 18" doesn't relate to the point of "*TLDR: How to decline a sensitive child's birthday invitation without saying, "I don't want to go." or "I don't like your toxic father." *Then you may need to get off w/e drugs you're on mate. Like which part do you not get, the part that essentially states you can't go see other people's kids without their parents permission or the kid needs to be over 18 to be able to decide shit themselves?


OP [outlines abusive parental practices]
You: But is she actually fat? In Asia it's actually normal to fatshame so kids grow healthy.

Of all the things to focus on ... XD


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Necrofantasia said:


> OP [outlines abusive parental practices]
> You: But is she actually fat? In Asia it's actually normal to fatshame so kids grow healthy.
> 
> Of all the things to focus on ... XD


But I've already answered OP's leading questions and now talking about other stuff...


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## Zeri (Jan 23, 2018)

OrchidSugar said:


> After having to explain to others everything I've witnessed / experienced with this family, I think it's clear that I am not well, lol. Maybe I should have just cold turkey dropped everyone in this family, including the kids. Now I'm all enmeshed. Worrying about things that normal healthy people wouldn't give a second thought to. I feel kind of dumb af and I could definitely benefit from some therapy to figure out why do I feel a sense of responsibility for this kid's grades and mental health when I can barely manage my own life. Ugh!


It's a really tricky situation :-/. It's sad that the girl already has low self-esteem ( I guess it's inevitable considering her father's comments :-( ) and I think it's great that you've tried to encourage and motivate her, and help her to see her worth. But it's sad too...because your job really is tutoring, but due to the family's dysfunctions you have to function almost like a counsellor in some respects. I guess tutoring sometimes isn't cut and dry...where you can just focus on studies and ignore other related issues (like self esteem, which could be affecting her academic achievement anyway..), but yeah..it's clearly an enmeshed situation and probably a lot more than what you signed up for in the beginning. I don't know what to say, because it's clear the children value you a lot, but due to the father it makes things difficult.

Maybe keeping a relationship with the children but finding ways to draw up clear boundaries with the father could help things, so that you don't become further enmeshed. (Maybe that means not going to the dinner...I don't know. It sounds like you feel very uncomfortable about it., for obvious reasons)

Do you think it's something you could raise with them. as to what your boundaries going forward would be, in terms of supporting the daughter vs. becoming further sucked into the family unit?


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

ENTJudgement said:


> You can't only see the kids without the parents, it's a package deal until kid turns 18. Also if the daughter really is fat then what are you going to tell her that fat = good? In Asia fat shamming is a common method to ensure your kids are fit and healthy hence why Asians living in Asia are rarely fat.


Ah we’re unsure if the family is Asian , true it’s not uncommon for Asian from Asia to fat shame or thin shame( the latter even more) . Just bc it’s common within one culture to do so - it doesn’t make it right or acceptable.Eating disorder is on a rise - even in Asia ( always been around in Japan - after the 90s China , Taiwan , Singapore etc ) . Bringing culture in doesn’t help with this topic . It’s wrong in every direction you look at regardless of race or time frame . 

Back to Op 

The dad makes you uncomfortable due to clash value and it seems as if the family takes you for granted ( I remembered you’ve mentioning this child before in another post ). Would you want someone to come to your birthday party if they don’t feel like it and are hesitant to ? Perhaps saying no isn’t too bad . You can even exit yourself out saying “ I have something else to do .” I might’ve responded too late though but I hope all is well . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> I don't think it matters whether the dad is a 1000kg obese health disease or 70kg pro athlete coz say that the dad was a drug addict and he tells his daughter not to do drugs coz it's the right thing to do, would you even bother mentioning that the dad is a drug addict himself and therefore shouldn't tell his daughter to better? A long time ago, I used to be defensive, when people critiqued me on what I did or my behavior, my first thought was well what about you? Can you do better? or who are you to tell me? *Emotionally it makes sense but logically theres no point, if its true it's true whether the person who told you follows that advice or not.*


"Don't do drugs because x,y,x" is advice. 
"You're fat" is not.



ENTJudgement said:


> As someone who grew up with Asian parents I can tell you that I believe that I'm inherently worthless so I fall into 1 of your traps but how is this false? In Asia the general populace IS inherently worthless. The CCP sees their citizens as numbers on a piece of paper and don't give 2 fks about what happens to them and should you defy the govt, you disappear. Secondly, competition is fierce and expectation are high (due to the fierce competition) so it's a never ending loop. You are judged based on your abilities and value you bring to your family and society. If you do poorly or a failure, you are worthless so theres no logical fallacy in saying that you are inherently worthless since you need to prove your worth and value.
> 
> But I don't see this as good or bad, it's simply how the world works, you can either expect the world to change for you or you can adapt and change to your environment. Those who are unable to adapt and change to their environment will end up dead either by the environment or suicide, this just proves you weren't cut out for this world, the weak die and the strong survive. Whats wrong with people who can't cope or deal with reality deciding to leave it? I think that if you're over sensitive towards your kids, baby them too much and let them grow up to become snowflakes, they're going to be essentially useless and in turn also worthless.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story. I understand better now how you came to be ENTJ. 

There are some things that I agree with you on:
1. People need to work hard to prove their value. (I would argue to their community rather than to the world, but...semantics). 
2. Parents have to guide their kids onto the right path. 

I'm not disagreeing with your objectives, I'm disagreeing with your methods. You believe that the world is the way it is, and that people need to adopt winning strategies for better results. I believe that people are the way they are, and people need to adopt winning strategies for better results.

You fail to understand that the same method of childrearing that motivated you to be the best version of yourself could actually bring out the worst version of someone else. This is the whole concept of a buyer's persona. Anyone who works in sales, negotiation, managing, counseling, teaching, etc. realizes that people are not a monolith. To get the best results, you need to tailor your approach to that individual. Such is the case with children. The way you were raised might not be the best way to raise your kid. If feeling like a worthless piece of shit is what gets you out of bed everyday, then congrats on your success. But this particular kid does not seem to use shame as a motivator for work.

The only other thing I will say is that, like someone else pointed out, it seems like you needlessly focused on the most insignificant aspect of what I had to say. I've already admitted that the fat-shaming was cultural. She is an active kid and doesn't seem to have a complex about her weight for now.


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> That's a good idea. To bring a guest. I could try to bring a friend, but that person would need to speak the language. Not yet sure who I can ask.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually the friend idea was the fact that what creeped me out most in your post is they know you live alone (I think), and the husband's always wanting to know your work schedule and stuff. Set off my Italian bells and whistles. It's kind of weird he wants to know that much about your daily habits. I'd go to the party but leave the friend at my house so it's not unattended. That's just where my mind goes. We've had acquaintances take advantage of the fact everyone was going to be at a wedding at the same time, to go steal from their houses. 

I would be upfront with them that some of their questions make you uncomfortable, and let them know you value your time and privacy. While you're more than happy to help, you would prefer if they ask in advance so you can accommodate them if it's convenient for you. 

Show up to the birthday, even for a little because it's not the daughter's fault. Or let her know you can't make it that day, but invite her over for a cupcake and a gift or something to make it special anyway. As much as you don't want to, you're going to have to make it slightly uncomfortable before it gets better, by setting boundaries that work for you. Make it absolutely certain though, it has nothing to do with the kid.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

intranst said:


> Just INFP things? But in all seriousness I think this is a specialized case that can only be solved by determining the kid's MBTI type. Ok I'll shut up now.


Just typical INFP shit...lol
I thought the girl was ESFP, but now I'm kind of thinking she might be ENFP? One of the two. I'm strongly leaning ENFP.



Zeri said:


> It's a really tricky situation :-/. It's sad that the girl already has low self-esteem ( I guess it's inevitable considering her father's comments :-( ) and I think it's great that you've tried to encourage and motivate her, and help her to see her worth. But it's sad too...because your job really is tutoring, but due to the family's dysfunctions you have to function almost like a counsellor in some respects. I guess tutoring sometimes isn't cut and dry...where you can just focus on studies and ignore other related issues (like self esteem, which could be affecting her academic achievement anyway..), but yeah..it's clearly an enmeshed situation and probably a lot more than what you signed up for in the beginning. I don't know what to say, because it's clear the children value you a lot, but due to the father it makes things difficult.
> 
> Maybe keeping a relationship with the children but finding ways to draw up clear boundaries with the father could help things, so that you don't become further enmeshed. (Maybe that means not going to the dinner...I don't know. It sounds like you feel very uncomfortable about it., for obvious reasons)
> 
> Do you think it's something you could raise with them. as to what your boundaries going forward would be, in terms of supporting the daughter vs. becoming further sucked into the family unit?





ai.tran.75 said:


> The dad makes you uncomfortable due to clash value and it seems as if the family takes you for granted ( I remembered you’ve mentioning this child before in another post ). Would you want someone to come to your birthday party if they don’t feel like it and are hesitant to ? Perhaps saying no isn’t too bad . You can even exit yourself out saying “ I have something else to do .” I might’ve responded too late though but I hope all is well .


I don't think it would make sense to have a discussion with the parents about it directly, because you can usually only problem-solve and negotiate with people who actually respect your boundaries or your stance. Dad has shown that he doesn't care much about anyone's boundaries, so all I can do is protect myself from his antics. Mom is nice, but a classic enabler, can't really be trusted to defend anyone.

As for the situation of the party, it's funny you should ask me to put myself in the girl's shoes. I recall a time when I was having a graduation party when I was younger. The two sides of my family were beefing with one another. The majority from one side called and told me that they would not be attending due to issues with the adults I lived with. But they would support me with a gift. I was very disappointed and there were very few people in attendance at my party. This left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the ones who didn't come, because I thought they should suck it up and play nice. Now that I'm old enough to be in a similar situation myself, I don't wanna go! The difference is that they were a big group who decided not to come, and they could have just stayed amongst each other. But it's just me. Well that's how I'm rationalizing it. I just still don't wanna go! 



ai.tran.75 said:


> Ah we’re unsure if the family is Asian , true it’s not uncommon for Asian from Asia to fat shame or thin shame( the latter even more) . Just bc it’s common within one culture to do so - it doesn’t make it right or acceptable.Eating disorder is on a rise - even in Asia ( always been around in Japan - after the 90s China , Taiwan , Singapore etc ) . Bringing culture in doesn’t help with this topic . It’s wrong in every direction you look at regardless of race or time frame .


They're not Asian. Parents are Mexican, kids are first generation Mexican-American. My Spanish is such that I can express my own basic thoughts and opinions, but fast talking and slang goes over my head.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> You can't only see the kids without the parents, it's a package deal until kid turns 18. Also if the daughter really is fat then what are you going to tell her that fat = good? In Asia fat shamming is a common method to ensure your kids are fit and healthy hence why Asians living in Asia are rarely fat.


Also, shaming is only part of the reason why Asians stay fit and healthy. You can consider both nature and nurture. Diet plays a huge factor. Typical East Asian body type has a hard time picking up fat and muscle unless they give it concentrated effort. Most have ectomorph or mesomorph body types. They can eat white rice three times a day and still never gain significant weight. You compare that to cultures of primarily mesomorphs and endomorph body types with greater insulin resistance. They're going to struggle to burn off starch before it gets converted, and will pick up fat easily without realizing it.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> "Don't do drugs because x,y,x" is advice.
> "You're fat" is not.


I think it's implied that saying "you're fat" just means you're too fat, go lose some weight.



OrchidSugar said:


> Thank you for sharing your story. I understand better now how you came to be ENTJ.


I worry I'm a bit too lazy to be considered ENTJ TBH but I have no way to tell coz inferior Fi constantly makes me compare myself to only the best and thus I could just be a underachieving ENTJ, especially compared to Elon for example.



OrchidSugar said:


> The only other thing I will say is that, like someone else pointed out, it seems like you needlessly focused on the most insignificant aspect of what I had to say. I've already admitted that the fat-shaming was cultural. She is an active kid and doesn't seem to have a complex about her weight for now.


I mean I've already answered your opening question so went off on different topics coz expected a reply from you on your perspective, your perspective is pretty much what I assumed you'd say but better put together and polite than what I predicated. As you say, I see the world as what it is and people should adopt winning strategies for better results where you believe people are the way they are but we could improve upon that. I'd say that the world includes the people within it so what I said encompasses people but it's obvious as you pointed out everyone is different and may react differently to different strategies.

Skipping ahead, I would say that having a grandiose sense of self worth, think too highly of one self, expecting everyone to be equals when we clearly aren't, oblivious to your place in the hierarchy, having a sense of entitlement is a trend thats more and more common with the youth of later generations. So what I said may have been quite bias against the snowflakes of later generations although I still think that the best way to toughen up a snowflake is to melt it so it becomes as adaptable as water.

I always fight fire with fire but what wins me over each and every time is cooling me down with water which is why I'm quite wary of water, if someone is too nice and seemingly kind, I tend to be skeptical and test the waters to check how genuine that behavior is. People think I'm a dick or an asshole when I'm testing the waters but I rather have that perception than to drown.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> I think it's implied that saying "you're fat" just means you're too fat, go lose some weight.
> 
> 
> I worry I'm a bit too lazy to be considered ENTJ TBH but I have no way to tell coz inferior Fi constantly makes me compare myself to only the best and thus I could just be a underachieving ENTJ, especially compared to Elon for example.
> ...


I don’t like when y’all ENTJs do that little testing bit. It’s hurtful. By doubting people’s sincerity and poking and prodding at them you bring out their demon. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy with y’all. You try to trigger and then you get the response you were looking for and are pleased with your confirmation bias. This is due to y’all’s Fe demon. The reason why y’all look like sadists and assholes in personal relationships. But I guess you already know this and consider it a winning strategy. I just never understand. I ended relationships with three ENTJs in my life this way. Too bad! I really like y’all otherwise. But my nervous system can’t take it.

The funny thing is, when I think of the differences in the generations, I conceptualize the boomers as ExTJ and the millennials as XNFP. The generation of snowflakes you mention were raised by the so called resilient boomers. So how they get blamed for their own upbringing is beyond me. Put it like this, the boomers were so starved of kindness from their own silent generation parents and had to stifle their feelings to such a degree that they vowed to try a little tenderness with their own children. Boomers got shamed and lacked praise too. Started working to overcompensate for low self worth, creating a false persona.

The millennials were so shattered by their parents’ and bosses’ obsession with material wealth and status at the expense of their own personal satisfaction and morality, that they started advocating for top-down structural changes to society, including higher wages, work from home, diversity and inclusion, etc. Millennial hypocrisy is advocating diversity and community, while being very intolerant of differing opinions and beliefs.

All generations have narcissistic traits swinging from one extreme to the other.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

I would personally let a couple “tests” fly with ENTJs when they do whatever screening it is but I wouldn’t stand for it after we already established a trusting relationship.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Underachieving compared to Elon lol


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## SouDesuNyan (Sep 8, 2015)

I would avoid the family just to avoid the annoying father. The daughter is not your responsibility. I wouldn't have let the friendship get that close to begin with, but I'm a man, which in the US is considered creepy to be friend with a child that's not related.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

SouDesuNyan said:


> I would avoid the family just to avoid the annoying father. The daughter is not your responsibility. I wouldn't have let the friendship get that close to begin with, but I'm a man, which in the US is considered creepy to be friend with a child that's not related.


Yeah I should have kept it surface level with the kids, but I honestly had no clue the dad was like that. I didn’t interact with him much before that. Only talked to the mom about permission.


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## bibbidi-bobbidi-boo (3 mo ago)

OrchidSugar said:


> *TLDR: How to decline a sensitive child's birthday invitation without saying, "I don't want to go." or "I don't like your toxic father."*
> 
> There's a little girl in my neighborhood who I've been unofficially tutoring for about a year now. She comes to my apartment maybe once or twice a week for homework help. Sometimes she brings her little brother and we play arts and crafts together. So I know these kids well and like them both. They see me as an older sister.
> 
> ...


Tell them you have Covid a day before. Put wet toilet paper up your nostrils, so you will sound like you're down with the flu.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

OrchidSugar said:


> They're not Asian. Parents are Mexican, kids are first generation Mexican-American. My Spanish is such that I can express my own basic thoughts and opinions, but fast talking and slang goes over my head.


lmao I called it.

I don't think you're going to get anywhere constructive getting tangled up with them, and I definitely don't trust the dude's intentions in engaging you are wholesome.
I'd say bail. If anything it will hopefully make the kid ask herself some very key questions about her dad's behaviour. I know a dude exactly like him and he constantly hits on my 70 y o mom in front of his wife. Wife just takes it in stride and doesn't stop it at all no matter how inappropriate he gets. Fucking. Run.
Get out of town or visit family and tell kiddo's family they got COVID and you gotta take care of them.
Seriously there is no good outcome in staying involved.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

intranst said:


> Underachieving compared to Elon lol


Inferior Fi joke  Basically I can never be good enough coz I'm comparing to outrageous people to begin with


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> I don’t like when y’all ENTJs do that little testing bit. It’s hurtful. By doubting people’s sincerity and poking and prodding at them you bring out their demon. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy with y’all. You try to trigger and then you get the response you were looking for and are pleased with your confirmation bias. This is due to y’all’s Fe demon. The reason why y’all look like sadists and assholes in personal relationships. But I guess you already know this and consider it a winning strategy. I just never understand. I ended relationships with three ENTJs in my life this way. Too bad! I really like y’all otherwise. But my nervous system can’t take it.


I couldn't agree more but I just have such a strong propulsion to do it and when I suspected wrong and you proved through the tests that you were that genuine trust worthy person I was looking for, I'll feel all warm and fuzzy inside and start simping pretty hard to make up for being an ass, that feeling of finally having found someone worthy, guilt/need to make up for testing you before and wanting to keep you in my life is one of the few ways I can get an emotional high. It's like the more I've wronged you in the past and the more you've shown that you were a genuinely great person the more of a emotional high I get when I hit the realization moment that I've got a lot to make up for but you're the real deal that withstood the test of time. I understand this pushes away 99.9% of people and destructive af but IDK how I could see it any other way. Blind trust and faith are just non existent in my repertoire. Is that demon Fe to blame? Care to elaborate on what demon Fe does? I can't really tell myself coz to me it feels kinda normal lol



OrchidSugar said:


> The funny thing is, when I think of the differences in the generations, I conceptualize the boomers as ExTJ and the millennials as XNFP. The generation of snowflakes you mention were raised by the so called resilient boomers. So how they get blamed for their own upbringing is beyond me. Put it like this, the boomers were so starved of kindness from their own silent generation parents and had to stifle their feelings to such a degree that they vowed to try a little tenderness with their own children. Boomers got shamed and lacked praise too. Started working to overcompensate for low self worth, creating a false persona.
> 
> The millennials were so shattered by their parents’ and bosses’ obsession with material wealth and status at the expense of their own personal satisfaction and morality, that they started advocating for top-down structural changes to society, including higher wages, work from home, diversity and inclusion, etc. Millennial hypocrisy is advocating diversity and community, while being very intolerant of differing opinions and beliefs.
> 
> All generations have narcissistic traits swinging from one extreme to the other.


I always thought that with ExTJ parents, I became a ExTJ myself, aren't ExTJ parents tough on their kids? So why would they grow up to become XNFPs?


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> I couldn't agree more but I just have such a strong propulsion to do it and when I suspected wrong and you proved through the tests that you were that genuine trust worthy person I was looking for, I'll feel all warm and fuzzy inside and start simping pretty hard to make up for being an ass, that feeling of finally having found someone worthy, guilt/need to make up for testing you before and wanting to keep you in my life is one of the few ways I can get an emotional high. It's like the more I've wronged you in the past and the more you've shown that you were a genuinely great person the more of a emotional high I get when I hit the realization moment that I've got a lot to make up for but you're the real deal that withstood the test of time. I understand this pushes away 99.9% of people and destructive af but IDK how I could see it any other way. Blind trust and faith are just non existent in my repertoire. Is that demon Fe to blame? Care to elaborate on what demon Fe does? I can't really tell myself coz to me it feels kinda normal lol


Yall scare me to death. I am so glad you’re saying this because nobody listens to a thing I say when I try to warn them about this 😭😭😭.

Fe demon causes you to not give af about the feelings of others. Se child gives a cold, blunt delivery then laughs and plays while twisting the knife.
[/QUOTE]




ENTJudgement said:


> I always thought that with ExTJ parents, I became a ExTJ myself, aren't ExTJ parents tough on their kids? So why would they grow up to become XNFPs?


A lot of reasons. I’m talking possibilities. You’re very hard on your kids and only respect their achievements, criticizing them and hurting their feelings when they fail. They develop a kind hero persona that cares about and values their own feelings (in the form of Fi hero or Fi parent.) Because you are their parent, they still care about your opinion, but your overly authoritarian Te is too much sometimes. Te moves to the aspirational position, or the child position but they need to make a concentrated effort to improve it in their lives.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

@ENTJudgement oh yeah and you’re right. Demon Fe makes you suspicious of the emotional displays of others. And paranoid that they’re trying to manipulate you


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

intranst said:


> Enneagram is kinda hard to pin down, I still don’t know for sure what my tritype is but yeah definitely primarily 4w5 sp/sx. I’m also not 100% sold on it’s validity, but “social blind” makes a lot of sense for me and is more fitting to 4w5 than 4w3. Sx cuz I want the closest relationships possible and Sp cuz I want the individuals to be actualized enough so the close relationship is authentic for each person (very INFP lol). Despite my preference for Sp though my outside world can get pretty messy, but then the Sp comes out when my ESFJ mom organizes my shit when I specifically told her not to.


Yeah that does make sense! I think that might be me as well. Minus the ESFJ mom. Unless we’re talking turning into one under stress lol


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> Yeah that does make sense! I think that might be me as well. Minus the ESFJ mom. Unless we’re talking turning into one under stress lol


LOL, can’t say I have ever felt like an ESFJ.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> I think the best thing is to team up in business ENTJxINFP. That way the two can sharpen one another.


I'll be honest, when I learnt about cognitive functions etc... I jumped straight into the ones that I thought were useful like Ti, Te, Se, Ni, Ne, Fe. Si is somewhat useful I guess but Fi was the one that stuck out like a sore thumb to me, how is this function useful in say a work environment? So when I saw that INFP is a Fi Dom, Ne secondary, I was thinking, you intake/gather data from the external world via Ne then you filter/make judgements using Fi to come to a conclusion but isn't Fi just your subjective thought/feeling/opinion? 

Ti looks for empirical logical truth, it can't be disputed once proven so it's overpowered af. 
Te users are great to get everyone onboard with a simple, efficient, logical process that works, out side of that, it's kinda mediocre.
Ni if you're good can make accurate predictions, it can intuitively narrow down the plethora of possibilities down to the most prevalent one that gives you the highest chance of success, also OP.
Ne is good for intuitively coming up with ideas/possibilities but needs a good narrowing function to pick the right ones, otherwise, useless by itself coz you'll just get option paralysis.
Se is great if you're stuck outdoors, if you have a stereotypical war with foot soldiers etc... you'd definitely need a shit load of Se dom soldiers to get around, survive and kill the enemy.
Si is questionable, if t he person has a lot of experience in a given field, it's seemingly OP but how that person got there doesn't seem like it was due to Si.
Fe keeps group harmony and can easily be used to win people over, obviously OP coz strength in numbers.
Fi, I have a hard time understanding why Fi is good, isn't it just your introverted feelings? Like how are you going to prove anything, find logical truths, be objective, find empirical truths with this? Doesn't Fi just make u feel strongly about something? But feeling strongly about something don't make it right to others?


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

I'm not sure about strictly business per se, but ENTJ and INFP are theoretically the best for coordinating in my opinion, which is what should be looked at when determining compatibility. It's all about efficient communication for both parties. They both think in terms of "here's what needs to get done, now how do we do it" whereas other types might get too tripped up on details and lose sight of the end or try to implement their preferred way of doing things instead of being open to adaptation with the other person. Fi being a function that determine's one's values will be placing a lot of emphasis on the fulfillment of said goal and INFPs specifically play out a lot of scenarios instinctively in their head to find the best course of action for longterm fulfillment for themselves and others based on each individual's value system. This way of thinking can potentially shed years of wasted time off an ENTJ's back by exploring the space in their mind that questions why they are doing the things they are doing, while the help the ENTJ provides the INFP is fairly self-explanatory in that the ENTJ's forward way of thinking is a huge asset where the INFP gets easily frustrated with the backwards thinking of other types because the INFP wants to progress but is naturally prone to backwards thinking themselves.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> I'll be honest, when I learnt about cognitive functions etc... I jumped straight into the ones that I thought were useful like Ti, Te, Se, Ni, Ne, Fe. Si is somewhat useful I guess but Fi was the one that stuck out like a sore thumb to me, how is this function useful in say a work environment? So when I saw that INFP is a Fi Dom, Ne secondary, I was thinking, you intake/gather data from the external world via Ne then you filter/make judgements using Fi to come to a conclusion but isn't Fi just your subjective thought/feeling/opinion?
> 
> Ti looks for empirical logical truth, it can't be disputed once proven so it's overpowered af.
> Te users are great to get everyone onboard with a simple, efficient, logical process that works, out side of that, it's kinda mediocre.
> ...


Reason why you don’t value Fi is because you only play to win (at all costs). So you’re thinking about how to get the most amount of people on board as quickly as possible to fulfill your goals. Fi concerns itself with the “at all costs part.” Whether your methods are morally sound. It doesn’t care about what everyone else is saying and doing. Doesn’t even care about what’s efficient. It stands in “opposition” to Te. To make sure your policies and methods don’t go too far. Y’all cannot see when you go too far.

Now we already talked about how you have to use both Te and Ti at work. But with the Ti, you have to put good data in to get accurate data out. Ti thrives on observation and sometimes it takes time to develop a clearer picture. Y’all Te doms are all about taking action now, and can formulate a plan that quickly mobilizes people, but you don’t know when going too far. And the only way to convince you of it is to make you feel something with your own Fi. When other people emote (like INFP sticking up for the minority) you don’t care because you don’t value Fe.

You think INFP is overreacting when sometimes you can be under reacting. As making you feel something (or influencing your morality) with your inferior Fi is the only way to get you to refine your methods, you are very protective of your own feelings, because you don’t want to be manipulated lol.

Same way INFP doesn’t want to be manipulated by authority figures and conventional rules. So they get all skeptical and have to do research in demon mode. Just as an example, institutions raced to find solutions to COVID and drew up vaccine mandate policies in an effort to contribute to a zero COVID, 100% vaccination, win at all cost ideal. Following guidance from CDC, NHS, and main stream media. Where was the Ti data suggesting that COVID could be eradicated in a global society? Where was the Ti data guaranteeing that vaccines could stop transmission and reinfection? Yet every major news station and politician was making these claims circa Spring 2021.

Punishments for refusing to vaccinate ranged from Canadian government seizing funds from people’s personal bank accounts to US companies firing employees to Australian police beating people in the streets. All on the Fe basis that these people were not doing their part to stop the transmission. And the Te basis of “I’m just following orders.” This week Pfizer admitted to not having even tested for vaccine transmission efficacy. Absolutely shameful and sickening. We will see more news like this coming out as Fi and Ti users continue to tell the truth. 

Remember Fi is not just feelings, it’s morality and right vs wrong. Te is not just logical decision making, it’s authority and rules. ENTJ helps INFPs moral judgments be better rooted in logic and “greater good.” INFP helps strengthen ENTJs processes and decision making to avoid their Fe demon going too far.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> Reason why you don’t value Fi is because you only play to win (at all costs). So you’re thinking about how to get the most amount of people on board as quickly as possible to fulfill your goals. Fi concerns itself with the “at all costs part.” Whether your methods are morally sound. It doesn’t care about what everyone else is saying and doing. Doesn’t even care about what’s efficient. It stands in “opposition” to Te. To make sure your policies and methods don’t go too far. Y’all cannot see when you go too far.
> 
> Now we already talked about how you have to use both Te and Ti at work. But with the Ti, you have to put good data in to get accurate data out. Ti thrives on observation and sometimes it takes time to develop a clearer picture. Y’all Te doms are all about taking action now, and can formulate a plan that quickly mobilizes people, but you don’t know when going too far. And the only way to convince you of it is to make you feel something with your own Fi. When other people emote (like INFP sticking up for the minority) you don’t care because you don’t value Fe.
> 
> ...


What you said kinda illustrates the insider joke I've got with my INTJ friends, we're always skeptical of authorities and suspect they're manipulating us into their B.S but as soon as we're given the power, we'd do the exact same thing lol. 

"Fuck All authorities, they're all wrong except for when I'm the authority".

Heres the thing though, I'm pretty hard on myself so how are you going to make me feel something with my own Fi if I've already gone through it, came out ontop and now expect everyone else to be able to do the same? I.E If I was able to achieve X then why can't you mentality, putting me into his shoes isn't going to help.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

intranst said:


> I'm not sure about strictly business per se, but ENTJ and INFP are theoretically the best for coordinating in my opinion, which is what should be looked at when determining compatibility. It's all about efficient communication for both parties. They both think in terms of "here's what needs to get done, now how do we do it" whereas other types might get too tripped up on details and lose sight of the end or try to implement their preferred way of doing things instead of being open to adaptation with the other person. Fi being a function that determine's one's values will be placing a lot of emphasis on the fulfillment of said goal and INFPs specifically play out a lot of scenarios instinctively in their head to find the best course of action for longterm fulfillment for themselves and others based on each individual's value system. This way of thinking can potentially shed years of wasted time off an ENTJ's back by exploring the space in their mind that questions why they are doing the things they are doing, while the help the ENTJ provides the INFP is fairly self-explanatory in that the ENTJ's forward way of thinking is a huge asset where the INFP gets easily frustrated with the backwards thinking of other types because the INFP wants to progress but is naturally prone to backwards thinking themselves.


Wow! Are we prone to backwards thinking? That sounds horrible lol. I agree on the saving ENTJ from wasted time. And INFP does care a lot about forward thinking and what things will happen down the line.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> Wow! Are we prone to backwards thinking? That sounds horrible lol. I agree on the saving ENTJ from wasted time. And INFP does care a lot about forward thinking and what things will happen down the line.


Eh maybe not prone to it so much as just having a hard time progressing but still wanting to progress if you relate to that.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> What you said kinda illustrates the insider joke I've got with my INTJ friends, we're always skeptical of authorities and suspect they're manipulating us into their B.S but as soon as we're given the power, we'd do the exact same thing lol.
> 
> "Fuck All authorities, they're all wrong except for when I'm the authority".
> 
> Heres the thing though, I'm pretty hard on myself so how are you going to make me feel something with my own Fi if I've already gone through it, came out ontop and now expect everyone else to be able to do the same? I.E If I was able to achieve X then why can't you mentality, putting me into his shoes isn't going to help.


Yeah, y’all dream of making it to the top so you can be the one setting the rules. And you can’t make ENTJ do anything. You can try to influence. As I said, they only value their own sense of morality. Hence why I told intranst to be very wary of y’all. This is a goddamn power struggle relationship, but he likes it lol.

You can make INFP do things, but they will hate you and the relationship will break down. Unless of course you invite INFP to the board room where the power plays happen... They don’t want the power, but they really don’t want enslavement.



intranst said:


> Eh maybe not prone to it so much as just having a hard time progressing but still wanting to progress if you relate to that.


Yes, story of my life. You’re right.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Haha I don’t know if I’d like an actual power struggle, but I do like debate and competition, and teasing would just be fun for me cuz I don’t actually care about winning, not that I wouldn’t at least try. I mean, they can try to debate me 

ESTJ is the one that’s actually a power struggle because they micromanage, eek.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

A thought just came to me about Fi in relation to Te. Te alone is mutually beneficial/non-beneficial, and without the influence of Fi, it can only but viewed as dead neutral. Since Te and Fi are connected, however, there's no ignoring the influence of Fi. This can be expressed as giving more of their assets to others or giving less, depending on the individual. Say for example there is an exchange of goods between two people, Fi will ultimately be effecting the mutuality of the exchange since Fi can be like, "If I kill this person, than I get to keep both." Likewise, Fi can be like, "You know what, I don't want/need this, you can just take it."


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## islandlight (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi, sorry I'm late. Re the girl's party:

Sounds like you really don't want to go and probably shouldn't go. You don't have to explain. Just something like, "No, sorry, I can't." Give her a gift or card if appropriate.

If you worry about them knowing you're home during the dinner, maybe you could go out for a while? Or just don't worry about it. Someone said to say you have things to do. That's a good suggestion. It's nobody's business what those "things" are. If pressed, you can say, "I'm not going to discuss that."

You're tutoring the girl and being kind to her within the circumstances. I think that's all you can do.

Don't tell the father your schedule. Deflect with "Why?" or "I don't know," etc. You're entitled to privacy. Good luck.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

intranst said:


> A thought just came to me about Fi in relation to Te. Te alone is mutually beneficial/non-beneficial, and without the influence of Fi, it can only but viewed as dead neutral. Since Te and Fi are connected, however, there's no ignoring the influence of Fi. This can be expressed as giving more of their assets to others or giving less, depending on the individual. Say for example there is an exchange of goods between two people, Fi will ultimately be effecting the mutuality of the exchange since Fi can be like, "If I kill this person, than I get to keep both." Likewise, Fi can be like, "You know what, I don't want/need this, you can just take it."


Yeah I think Fi provides nuance and Te favors one size fits most.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

islandlight said:


> Hi, sorry I'm late. Re the girl's party:
> 
> Sounds like you really don't want to go and probably shouldn't go. You don't have to explain. Just something like, "No, sorry, I can't." Give her a gift or card if appropriate.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. The more I talk about this family the more I remember. Luckily I’m starting to care less, which is actually a good thing. It will allow me to tell them I’m not going to the dinner and I will be right at home watching Netflix. I will get the girl a gift and maybe a little cupcake for the next time I will see her.


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