# Competition



## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

Aridela said:


> I don't care about competing with people.
> 
> I'd rather we all got along, or at least try not to hinder each other's chances in life.


... that much is true. We must differentiate between competition as malice, competition as survival, competition as progress, competition as amusement, competition as gratification of a frail ego. Slaughtering the innocent/weak is no victory. It's quite pathetic, actually.

Competition is neither good or bad, but a person is still ethically responsible for his expressions of competition.



> I find overly competitive people childish and tiresome. I've no interest in being number one, although I'd like for my art/ ideas to be noticed and accepted. At the same time I would probably find it weird and troublesome if I were overly accepted or in the epicenter of fame, so being number one or in the top ten even would do more damage than good.


... competition as egotistical gratification is annoying to watch and a petty emotion to feel. I don't deny doing it in the past, I think everyone has. Tell you the truth, gloating feels quite filthy. Yes, being number one will harm your art if you choose the wrong niche. Pursuing mass appeal makes your work trite, unless your authentic views happen to align with the status quo. Pushing for deliberate obscurity is equally inauthentic, unless your views happen to align with the fringes. Depends on what you want and what's important, really. 

Truth is, I got distracted by Animal's questions and my trolly/confrontation disposition. What I wanted to say is that competition is like medicine. Prescribed in the correct doses and for the correct things and at the correct times, it's wonderful. Otherwise, poison.

EDIT: LOL, come to think about it, I overdosed before. I can laugh about it now and hope people didn't get hurt by it too much.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> Good, bad, neutral?


Good in a capitalist system (avoids monopolies and promotes lower prices and better products when there are multiple companies competing for business)
Good in games (can make the game more interesting, give it a direction or goal, hopefully can create a limited scope environment where it doesn't get out of hand)
Questionable most everywhere else



Animal said:


> Exhilarating or painful?


Mostly annoying - let me choose if I want to play that game, don't try to impose it on me for whatever reason you need or desire it.



Animal said:


> What does it mean to you?


From wikipedia:
Competition in biology and sociology, is a contest between two or more organisms, animals, individuals, groups, etc., for territory, a niche, for a location of resources, for resources and goods, for mates, for prestige, for recognition, for awards, for group or social status, or for leadership. Competition is the opposite of cooperation.



Animal said:


> How does it work for you?


It sidetracks my focus and energy by looking at how or what the competition is doing instead of focusing on what might be more important and productive.



Animal said:


> How do you respond when others try to compete with you?


If it's a game that I want to play then it could be fun and interesting. 
If it's going to consume or distract me from my focus and energy then I just ignore it and go about my business.



Animal said:


> Is that flattering or offensive?


Depends on the motivations behind it and the nature of the person or group.



Animal said:


> How do you feel about competitive individuals, or the competitiveness (or lack thereof) in yourself?


I wonder what's driving their competitveness and whether they'd be better off pursuing a different means of satisfying that drive. If I can, I'll steer it toward something more cooperative or just try to stay out of their impact zone so I'm not adversely affected.

Personally, I look to see what the competitive urge is telling me - what is it that it's after. Then I look at whether it's worth the time and what's the best means of pursing it if it is (it will likely be another means besides a competitive one).


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## Spiren (May 12, 2016)

Animal said:


> Good, bad, neutral?


Neutral.



Animal said:


> Exhilarating or painful?


Amused, mostly.



Animal said:


> What does it mean to you?


Competition usually implies there actually being... competition on strengths. In that case, I'd summarise by saying someone who is on your level.



Animal said:


> How does it work for you? How do you respond when others try to compete with you? Is that flattering or offensive?


If it is on my level, it can motivate me and that's good for me - actualising my goals rather than remaining in analysis paralysis mode. I like seeing people succeed, it makes achievement clearly probable for everyone and that's essentially a great thing for everyone. 

If they're really no competition but trying to do what I do and making it a point to be in my face about it, I find that annoying.

If they're seeing me as motivation, well I don't care, just do it. I don't wish to talk about it unless there is some prior link between us, I'd rather see the results.



Animal said:


> How do you feel about competitive individuals, or the competitiveness (or lack thereof) in yourself?


I don't have a real opinion on them if it doesn't concern me. People who are competitive come in varying degrees but if there is real striving to improve in something that is meaningful to them, that's admirable. We use all sorts of ranging external measures and some of the motivations around them are less palatable to me; such as power over people, envy, etc.


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## bramble (Feb 4, 2016)

I have to mention, I sound so cold when I write and I don't know how to fix that :frustrating:

Competition, It’s draining, frustrating, gives me a headache. I don’t get motivation from competing with others, I do things on my own without looking for rivals. When I’m in a situation where I’m supposed to try and win I don’t put much effort in. I went indoor bowling recently for the first time, with friends and some acquaintances I wasn’t interested in. I knew I was going to be bad since I’d never done it before, and with these people watching me I couldn’t energize myself to put effort in because I don’t want them to see me care.

I don’t like being around people who are actively competing, or avid supporters, like of sports. My mother is one of those people who talks to the TV, and gets angry at the players and ref. That atmosphere is uncomfortable to me so I leave. I also don’t like sports because someone has to lose, and I don’t like to see people lose by a lot, even more if the winning team always wins. It feels unfair, even though I know that’s the point of competitive sports.

I actually used to play sports as kid. I enjoyed being on a team, was aggressive and energetic. I wasn’t a sore loser though, and I don’t like people who are. I see it as upsetting for the group/team when someone ruins the fun by being angry in a situation that doesn’t actually matter. 

Game shows can be fun to watch, the ones that involve q&a and not physical strength. I don’t watch them often though because I’m overwhelmed by the tense atmosphere. 

I used to be friends with someone who’d make most things into a competition (except against me because there is no point), even when no one else cared, she’d want to be first. It did motivate her to do schoolwork, so if that way worked for her, fine. It was irritating and embarrassing to be with her when she was drawing attention to herself, or trying to compete with people who really didn’t care. I think she’s and Sx 6.

I do want to succeed and be better than people, it’s just something I would do in the long term and from a distance. Being competitive conflicts with being supportive and kind to others, so ‘winning’ is something I’d keep to myself. And this is in future tense because I haven’t achieved anything..............


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## Scarlet Eyes (May 15, 2015)

My inner Aries is awakening. 



Animal said:


> Good, bad, neutral? Exhilarating or painful?


Awesome. I enjoy competition, getting caught in the rush. The possibility of besting someone and bringing them to their knees is invigorating by itself. 



Animal said:


> What does it mean to you? How does it work for you? How do you respond when others try to compete with you? Is that flattering or offensive?


*incoming anime reference*

After some musing, competition is like...the tennis match between Light Yagami & L in Death Note. The in-the-moment reactions, the slight mental readjustment of your skills, all done with the ultimate goal of winning. It's even better when the opponent's a worthy one. 





















It's kind of what I want at the moment. Someone who will keep me on my toes, who will both challenge and entertain me. The cat and mouse aspect of competition is part of the reason why I like it so much. 


Geez, no wonder some of my friends jokingly call me a sociopath. :ninja: 


I sort of have that right now, in fact. All this week, this girl and I have been playfully roasting each other online. The connection was almost instantaneous. (OT: I'm 90% sure she's an ExTJ. The Te is titanium strong in this one.) In the rare moments when I outwardly engage in playful competition, the other side's almost hooked. It's one of the best ways I make an entrance on the scene. Guess that's when remnants of my best, ideal self shines through. 


All right, back to the questions. It's rare when someone wants to compete with me. When it comes to certain areas of my life, people are usually like, "Yeah, there's no way we're challenging her. She'll kick our ass anyway." It's pretty flattering. But then I get put on this pedestal, where I feel like I _have_ to live up to expectations of being the best at my craft. If I don't, I feel like a huge failure. I tend to be the hardest on myself when it happens.




Animal said:


> How do you feel about competitive individuals, or the competitiveness (or lack thereof) in yourself?


It depends on the person, and my energy level for competing at the moment. This may sound pretentious and hypocritical, but I don't like people who are obviously competitive. Or people who just compete for shallow reasons. Just...unnecessary muscle-flexing and dick-jousting. It's tacky in my eyes. I prefer competition with style. 


I'm more of a subtle competitor myself, always probing for the weaknesses of my opponents. Or holding mental battles for the throne. Admittedly, envy's one of my main motivators for competing; if I see someone who's better at my "talents," I'll work harder to see if I can beat them. 


For me, that's the best part of competing - improving myself, and becoming closer to who I want to be.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

I have a lot of negative associations with competition, probably entirely because I grew up with six siblings. (I'm the sixth of seven, so I get all of the disadvantages of being the youngest, but none of the perks of being the *baby* of the family.) So, growing up, if there was something I didn't _super_ care about, I tended to step out. Actual example - my family goes hard for bacon, and I didn't really care, but I declared I didn't like bacon, just to step out of the competition for bacon. My (nearest) older sibling was _such_ a sore winner growing up that it really turned me off on ever wanting to win _just_ for the sake of winning/rubbing it in other people's faces. It felt shallow to me, like she needed to _prove_ she was worth something, outwardly, to other people, by winning some game that didn't actually matter. 

Despite the weird looks I get irl when I say so, I do not see myself as a "competitive person", and have a lot of ego typed up in that self (and sometimes public) image. My friends recently discovered Settlers of Catan, and we've been playing it a bunch. I think I've lost twice? And I'm very openly saying, "Oh yeah, I'm just having fun, I don't care who wins" and I'm acting that way too, always trading even if it's not beneficial, off on the side just doing my own thing. And I keep on winning. (It's really pissing my most competitive friend off. Oops?) I recently bought a different game where the whole premise is that we're all on the same team, and we're trying to beat the game, not each other. We played it twice. The first time, we won, so everyone said they liked it. The second time, we lost, and everyone else realized that yes, we win together, but we also lose together, and they'd rather have a shot at being the only one winning (maybe so at least one person feels good?). We didn't play it again after that. (Which is sad, bc I spent $50 and it's a super complicated game that takes a good forty minutes to explain in full.)

Beyond that, I can be very critical if I do not believe I/my team played our best. I used to play soccer, and after games, I would get very heated in my criticisms for all our downfalls - every missed position, every bad communication, every accident that really cost us. But it was about the quality of the gameplay, not the result. If we lost - even miserably - but played _well_, I was happy. 

I do not see myself as "competing" in certain arenas, even when I "win". I excel in these certain areas, so again, it's all about the quality of my effort, not the result, to me. Like cir, I care about improving myself, "beating" myself. I don't see the point in "beating" other people. 

Of course, sometimes people take that as humblebragging or whatever, or hear, "Yeah, I don't like X competition" and take it to mean, "Oh, she must really suck at X" and it's just like, "No? I don't? I just hate standardized tests? I know for a fact I'm in a higher percentile than you because I'm the literal top?" (I excel at standardized tests, like AP exams and SATs and things like that, so that tends to be what people attack me for the most, in regards to competitive things.)

If people are coming into "competition" with me, and they've got a good attitude, and their souls aren't on the line, and they're not trying to personally destroy me, then it's all cool, as far as I'm concerned. If those conditions aren't met, I will either: a) step out of the competition altogether (see bacon), b) swat them down, or maybe c) destroy them (esp if I'm in a bad mood and I already don't like them and it feels like they're attacking my _self_, not just my *status*).


for any/all who think they're being so clever when they think-respond, "haha, an 8 who's not competitive? what is this magic?":
:dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: 
we are not amused.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

periwinklepromise said:


> for any/all who think they're being so clever when they think-respond, "haha, an 8 who's not competitive? what is this magic?":
> :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry: :dry:
> we are not amused.


Lol people can fuck off with that. Everyone is different.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

i think i fell out of enjoying competition while young. it always seemed like a way for people to assert themselves over another, and when taking into account that that one slim spectrum a person may have won or lost within, the entire thing seems kind of petty or immature. 
(this isn't a judgement i place onto other people--our perspectives are different--this is just how it comes across to me; it breeds hierarchy that does not tie into the base foundations of something in such a way that fuels the potential out of said foundation) 


i don't feel a need to compete with other people, and when i feel or see others trying to compete with me, the feeling it elicits can range quite a bit. if they seem innocent in their efforts to compete--as in: they are just trying to kill time/enjoy the moment and exert themselves, it can actually be a little on the cute side, or at least something more warm; if they're trying to enforce some sort of subjective worth-based exercise, i'd rather bow out and just not be involved entirely (as a fail-safe of my own i've come to realize, because it stops me from descending to a place where i want to crush them for the sake of crushing them). 

in reality, what i see as true competition is competing with your own environment; with the factors that you see that would otherwise hinder you (and these are rarely other people--even in times where it appears to be an actual person who's in my way, it's only because i have not seen how they are dependent or in some way tied to these other factors within my sphere, which are more easily moved or pushed into place than the person themselves would be). 
i like adverse circumstances (or circumstances that have become "adverse" based on the normal functional state of said circumstance). in other words: something harder than normal, something that causes you to dig in and fight... honestly, this can be taken in ways that i don't mean. for instance, something being very tedious and mind-numbing isn't my idea of "adverse" as it is unnecessary and boring, but in situations where there is a glimmer of hope to win and all it takes is your own "ingenuity", quick-thinking, and the presence needed to take what you need when you need (or, to stop others from taking what you need to reach that 'glimmer')--that's what i like doing. 
that's what brings me alive, so to speak.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

@periwinklepromise 

lol, i usually read about one or two responses and then make my own (not the best way to "contribute"--if that's your thing --but still my normal habit). 
this usually equates to me making posts that may not add a whole a lot, but i have to say, scanning in reverse (another habit of mine), and then reading your own post... i see similarity or two. 

glad to see that other people are obviously on the path to enlightenment...


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Competition can be inspiring and push me to the next level. It can also ruin friendships and self-esteem. But I have to say, my best accomplishment - recording my album through my whisper- happened because I needed to compete with my ex who was a musician, and was "more me than me." I needed to show him who's boss and also inspire him to get his shit together. Of course, much of the competition was internal, me imagining it. Yet, when I handed him the album, he did cry and shake, and say he was proud of me, but that he wished he had done it. The next day he texted me how much he loved the songs and the lyrics (which were mostly about him, so that was his way of letting me know he got the message hahhaha). It did inspire him to start getting his shit together musically, and I felt great about that.  But I felt even better about him admitting I beat him.

But before taking on my own music, feeling "less than" him caused me to bring rejection on myself. I couldn't be myself around him; always felt I wasn't enough. I guess I needed to prove to myself that I was by reclaiming my identity.


Day to day competitions that don't involve huge life changes and relationship dynamics, are almost fully good, at least for me. I can handle losing as long as it pushes me to the next level. I try to win, and that fire turns me on. One-upping people in small ways is exciting and being one-upped back only forces me to do better. I see no problem with it on that level.

But major competitions - on the soul level - and comparisons, etc - can ruin friendships, relationships and self-esteem. Envy is the root of all evil. :bored: I've had friends try to compete with me just to prove they could, try to steal my guy or bullshit like that. It does not turn out well for them, and I come out on top, because I don't fall for assholes who would want idiots like that. :kitteh: All it does is expose their true colors. I would never do something like that. To me, it's a huge turn-off if a guy is with a friend of mine. I have yet to see a man as attractive after a friend has liked him or been with him. I need to be number 1. So my friends' exes are yuck. Might as well be relatives or old people.

But if I'm after someone and other people like him, o boy, I'll be the first to admit I get a major rush out of winning. I realize I could pretend to be modest and end that statement with "I'm not proud of it.." but honestly, part of me is. All is fair in love and war.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Scarlet Eyes said:


> ....


I relate to this whole post. Completely. Guess I'm a sociopath too. roud:




> It depends on the person, and my energy level for competing at the moment. This may sound pretentious and hypocritical, but I don't like people who are obviously competitive. Or people who just compete for shallow reasons. Just...unnecessary muscle-flexing and dick-jousting. It's tacky in my eyes. I prefer competition with style.


This is what I was getting at in my post too. People who do it "just to bring you down" or in some tacky manner disgust me. It's weak.. get an identity of your own, people. If they get in my way, I bring them down easily, but otherwise I prefer having nothing to do with those people.

Competition with style is the best. My six friend, our entire friendship was one big competition, all through highschool, college and onward. These days, we send each other our art and books and still try to one-up each other, though we're more supportive than before, which honestly - while it's nice - it takes some of the fire away. I love competitive fire with people I respect, but where there's a dark element, a little bit of hate and revenge there. I'd like to say it's all about being the better artist, or being pushed to be my best self, and that is a large part of it, but it really turns me on to twist the knife in someone who actually has a chance to beat me..and then for him or her to twist the knife in return. It's a turn on when the dynamic is unspoken. I don't mean a sexual turn-on .. this is a dynamic I've had in platonic friendships. In a real relationship, I'd prefer we didn't compete and it was us as a pair vs. the world, but my husband is the second person I've been with where it's like that. Several of my relationships stemmed from crushes that started with competitions - like being obsessed with a better musician, a more expressive person, jealous of someone's innocence, etc.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

@Donovan

Not so sure I'm all that "enlightened" but thanks roud:

regarding "this isn't a judgment I place onto other people": I read that and thought about how (I feel) I did a similar thing in my post because technically - _technically_ - I judged only my sister, not the people who may share certain traits with her. I suppose in all honesty, I judge these other super competitive people, but I also don't, like, I do try to understand. 

...Unless I already don't like them, then I just judge.


@Animal

Something I've seen come up in a couple of your posts is the whole "more me than me" thing, and I'm always just a little bit pleased, because when that happened to me in high school and I was finally able to articulate it - "it's like she's more me than me" "she's living my life and she's doing it _better_ than me", my audience just looked at me completely blankly. They just didn't get it.

I guess it ties back to competition, because it's not like after this realization I went out and took back all the "things" she had that I used to have - the awesome best friend, the guy I didn't really like but was a good trophy, etc - I just reassessed what really was Me (not just having certain friends, it turns out) and went after _that_ instead. (Because, well, it's not like I could've stowed these people in bags until they decided to like me again.) 

But also, let's be honest, if they could see me now?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

periwinklepromise said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> Something I've seen come up in a couple of your posts is the whole "more me than me" thing, and I'm always just a little bit pleased, because when that happened to me in high school and I was finally able to articulate it - "it's like she's more me than me" "she's living my life and she's doing it _better_ than me", my audience just looked at me completely blankly. They just didn't get it.
> 
> ...


Haha yes! I know what you mean. For me, the trophies or things that people take away are never men or friends - it's always something to do with my identity, that they are living out better than I am.


I lost my voice to illness, as everyone probably knows. I was a professional singer and songwriter before that. I was 16 when I lost it. Had a career already.

At 18 or so, I became obsessed with a guy who struck me as everything I lost - innocent, a musician, a heart of gold, hope, beauty, etc. We became close. Things got fucked up, mostly because he was evasive and I was crazy. (Trauma.) Then a few years later, he moved across the country. I saw his myspace - some woman following his music. I clicked on her page and saw she was an amazing musician. Her voice sounded a lot like mine used to. She produced, wrote and recorded everything herself, and played several instruments. She was gorgeous. My heart dropped to my stomach. I knew he would fall for her. And a few days later, they changed their status to "in a relationship."

That week, I read Kafkas "letter to my father" and loved it. Then, in a matter of 4 days in which I barely slept or ate, I spat out about 400 pages . It was a letter to the guy I had a crush on.

I did bring up "us" and what had gone wrong (we never even kissed, but this obsession went deep, and we were close). But, the main thrust of the writing was about my voice, and HER. How she was everything I could have been. And he would have loved me if I had been. Etc. But really, the bulk of it was not about wanting him, or hating her. In fact, I admired her, couldn't bring myself to hate her; such a good person and it was very apparent. I was never that good, even before illness. Of course shes a clear 9w8 and they can look all sweet .... but no, this woman had suffered and overcome . (I did my research, lol.) She was nothing but beautiful and respectable; someone I wished I could hate, but as a fellow trauma survivor, I could not.


The book was mostly about me. What I lost. Who I was. Who I needed to become. It was not about envying them, although that was what inspired it. It was not about hating them, though I got out some anger.


I finished it, and never dared to read it again. But I could not forget the content. It tore me up to write it; also freed me.


After another week, I stopped thinking about him. I'd been obsessing over him for years, but I cannot bring myself to obsess over people who are in relationships at all, let alone wonderful ones. I thought of him as "hers" ... and I thought of her as an inspiration, a reminder that it COULD BE DONE. When I met her, I adored her, and she was really nice to me. It actually surprised me that I was not focused on him at all, and was more focused on her, more connected to her, and rooting for them when she opened up to me about some problems in their relationship.

I do have empathy. I don't like to tear down good people. I didn't feel a need to "win him back." What I did need, was my own voice. She really encouraged that. What pushed me over the edge was the other guy who was a musician..but this is a long story with a lot of overlap.


I still check her songs. They broke up years ago. I still have a mini-competition in my head sometimes, though our sound is very different; I'm more HARD and 8-fix 4ish and she's more.. you know.. 9ish. She has a 4 fix, but still, the sound is just more mellow. The sentiment is more loving. Mine is envious and hateful. Etc. And I like it that way.

And she is proud of me and loves my songs and still encourages me even though she's famous in her area. She takes the time to check on what I'm up to musically and tell me I'm amazing and raw and whatever else. Such a great person really.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

I hate losing. 

but I don't have to win. 

Years ago I snowmobiled with about 5 guys. We'd climb avalanche chutes on hills. We'd cheat, we'd do our best. I was the best mechanic and most creative, but one guy was skinnier and spent a bit of money, another guy was way more athletic and coordinated, another guy was horribly not athletic and spent a LOT of money. competition was close, it was all friendly, we talked about the dangers of the hill we were climbing, and I trusted them with my life. Literally.

One day we pounded a hill for 3 hours. FINALLY, we packed a trail up to where I could grind out teh top - I cheated a bit, I lucked out in the draw of who went when, and I did a hero move which worked surprising everyone.

I got back to the bottom, and said "well, I kicked all your asses" and everyone instantly laughed and took it in the fun and honor it was intended. 

As I get older I compete less and less. I just don't care about making someone else lose.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

@Animal

Will reply, but for now, I have to go to work.

Will say... 4s do it better


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

periwinklepromise said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> Will reply, but for now, I have to go to work.
> 
> Will say... 4s do it better


Nah. 4s have too many complicated layers of feelings and identity. 8s are more straight forward and in reality. I love 8s. Gut types in general ... so candid, real. I'm not saying they can't be fucked up too; anyone could - but I just love the candor and how they can express the same emotion as me, but in such a human, even carnal, simple way. It's beautiful, really. It keeps me real.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

Animal said:


> Nah. 4s have too many complicated layers of feelings and identity. 8s are more straight forward and in reality. I love 8s. Gut types in general ... so candid, real. I'm not saying they can't be fucked up too; anyone could - but I just love the candor and how they can express the same emotion as me, but in such a human, even carnal, simple way. It's beautiful, really. It keeps me real.


Oh, the "it" here doesn't refer to life in general, just this kind of close-cutting, image/identity competition. I think 4s (and maybe all heart types?) "do it better"_ because_ they're so wrapped up in image and identity. Like, this is their *game*. 8s are a bit too straightforward, perhaps? I'm not sure how many 8s I know would want to dedicate the time to something like this. (I'm currently considering a 4-fix for myself, but idk)

For the long post: Yeah, I was afraid my examples would make it sound like I only cared about the "trappings" of her position or w/e. For me, it's not the thing. It's what the thing *represents*. (This is often a problem in interpersonal fights; I read _way_ way too far into stuff.) So it's not just that I was envious of her relationships (though I definitely was) (not the boy so much, didn't care about him, no matter how much friends wanted me to). What really got to me was, well, what that kind of thing *meant*. When I finally realized what my problem with her was, my line of thought was 100%, "But _I'm the one_ who's supposed to do X, but _I'm the one_ who's supposed to be Y and Z, _I'm the one_ who's always-" (you get the picture). My solution therefore was to find other ways of proving that I still did X, still had that Y and Z stuff going on. I had to prove I was still me, even if I had to do it without that stuff. So this particular story is more "living my life and doing it better than me" more than it is "more me than me", but the two can overlap.

I guess that could be understood as competitive, but I mean, it's not like anyone knew that that's what I was doing. I'm not sure _what_ they thought I was doing. But I had lost my mojo, and I needed to get it back. 

And I did!


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Although I don't like to admit it and attempt to hide it I'm more manipulative in competitive settings than I come across, and more driven in that direction than I put off. It's not in a grandiose, exaggerated, or overcompensating kind of way, just, if I feel triggered that something I've said or done is subpar I will feel instantly and extremely motivated to do something about it. As a SO dominant I'm also well aware of which types of competitive people suffer setbacks because of the way they went about "winning," so I try to compete in as amicable way as possible given the usual truth that winning but looking like a total asshole in the meanwhile offsets what you get by winning. 

A good chunk of my competitive drive is embedded in trying to be more competent than other people, usually by doing more, doing more effectively, knowing more, knowing better, knowing at the needed time, and being sure that what I think was scrutinized better than hasty conclusions from other people. Oddly enough, I have this warped 1/2-ish mindset that idealizes being absolutely necessary to a group of people, and that being depended upon plays into having the social leverage and freedom to do and say without filter. To some extent, if I pick up on something in particular that furthers this agenda in another person's perception, I'll play on it if having a good relationship with that person makes a difference (which is something I quite frequently ask myself). Basically, I like being an authority. I'm very competitive over qualified social standing and not just looking that way but actually having the ability to pull the works to prove I wasn't a bullshitter and can back up what I say. This approach is hard, because honestly it takes a lot of work, and pressure on self to hold to that. I'd rather lose now and improve to permanently win tomorrow than win something today I didn't actually deserve, and can't sustain tomorrow with my own hands at the wheel. 

The times I am _least _competitive are those when I am unable to contain my temper, and rant circularly over the same people and situations I have a bone to pick with. As relieving as they feel, pitchfork tirades rarely do anyone any good because the intensity of the anger prevents clear thinking and flexibility in making decisions that actually result in long term benefit.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

periwinklepromise said:


> @*Donovan*
> 
> Not so sure I'm all that "enlightened" but thanks roud:
> 
> ...


for me there's no "judgement" (_yet_) because it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. or i should say that my central focus immediately excludes them, and because of this it can't be an emotional or value judgement in any conscious way (again, when i'm in my mode so to speak). 
i can see something and think that from my own perspective it is in fact "petty", but at the same time realize that i'm viewing that within the frame of past experience between myself and another--from there, i'll usually give the benefit of the doubt that they are coming at it from a different angle, or that those involved on the other conflicting side to said (here-and-now) imaginary party may be acting from previous circumstances (in other words: they are only trying to compete because of "hurt feelings" over an incident of the past, or, that the person they are attempting to compete with is a total douchebag and is in need of being "brought down"... so, a lack of information makes it so that i at least attempt to forgo judging people entering into the same acts i may find myself and another within. i see very often, from personal experience, how easily things can be skewed or swayed, how people can play whatever cards will allow them to win, how perspective battles and truth loses, and because of this, i don't immediately assume that those involved are completely innocent--"what opinion can can i have as to others?"= the gist of my earlier comment). 

(response to Animal) 
but yeah: if they're cunts (sorry to all those five letters will offend), then no--they are cunts. period. we can be cool and function together because it's a necessity, but other than that "you"/they, pretty much don't exist to me; wasted time (and they usually will not even understand it, but explaining things doesn't help either, as it's always seen as an attempt to "apologize", and people tend to see that as tantamount to saying "i was wrong"... lol, not an intelligence-thing either, just a weakness of ego).


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

side-note, while i'm on this line of thought, as it does tie in:


(kind of a repeat but in a way stray a bit from my earlier posts)
i largely don't care what the people around me think. if we are close, and i've been shown that we _can_ be close, i will care and try to make sure we are on the same page as far as each of one another's actions are concerned. other than that, i really don't care if people like me or are impressed with me unless it's needed for a reason that lies outside of an actual relationship. 
this means that yes, while we may maintain a relationship of sorts, it's based off of performance. so, our feelings towards one another do not matter--what matters is completing something (even the go-between of completing a task doesn't matter, just the result the task itself). 

so, i think this plays into, or is connected to, the "i compete with my surroundings"-bit. sometimes i "accidentally" set myself up a way that others view as "high-ranking" within a sphere--but it's not a conscious act. i'm just realizing what needs to be done and then i go about doing what is needed. if i falter a bit, there will always be someone or more than one that has something to say about it, but i just try and ignore them, as all of actions previous had nothing to do with them, and my "correcting of the situation" has nothing to do with them. 

so, i don't care to measure myself against another person. it may sometimes be nice to see where i stand, but it also seems like that kind of thinking is the fastest way to enter into a race that is about "measuring up", as opposed to _owning_ something with your person. 


again, i'm human, and because of this i do like some recognition if i'm honest. i do like to seeing how i'm one of the relied upon people--but in the end, it's being "me" that i can count on that matters, as it's me that i'll be counting on. and because of this, it doesn't matter how well someone else does, because their ability is not dependent upon my own, nor is mine dependent upon their's.


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## Scarlet Eyes (May 15, 2015)

Animal said:


> I relate to this whole post. Completely. Guess I'm a sociopath too. roud:


Confession: Secretly I take that as a compliment, especially since some of my favorite characters are classified as that. :tongue:




Animal said:


> This is what I was getting at in my post too. People who do it "just to bring you down" or in some tacky manner disgust me. It's weak.. get an identity of your own, people. If they get in my way, I bring them down easily, but otherwise I prefer having nothing to do with those people.
> 
> Competition with style is the best. My six friend, our entire friendship was one big competition, all through highschool, college and onward. These days, we send each other our art and books and still try to one-up each other, though we're more supportive than before, which honestly - while it's nice - it takes some of the fire away. I love competitive fire with people I respect, but where there's a dark element, a little bit of hate and revenge there. I'd like to say it's all about being the better artist, or being pushed to be my best self, and that is a large part of it, but it really turns me on to twist the knife in someone who actually has a chance to beat me..and then for him or her to twist the knife in return. It's a turn on when the dynamic is unspoken. I don't mean a sexual turn-on .. this is a dynamic I've had in platonic friendships. In a real relationship, I'd prefer we didn't compete and it was us as a pair vs. the world, but my husband is the second person I've been with where it's like that. Several of my relationships stemmed from crushes that started with competitions - like being obsessed with a better musician, a more expressive person, jealous of someone's innocence, etc.


I agree, in the rare occasions when people want to do that with me, I mostly ignore them. If that makes me look like a wuss, I don't care. They aren't worth my time and energy anyway.

Hm, I wish I had a rival like that: someone who I'd playfully challenge, yet we still support each other and are focused on making each other better in our talents. Though I agree, it does take away the darker emotions that make it so addictive in the first place. It's amazing when I compete with someone who's greater than me, then metaphorically knock them down a few notches. Not in a diabolical way, just so they harbor a certain respect for me. (BTW, ESTJ friend said I was like a drug. Lol :kitteh

But a lot of the competitions I had were almost entirely in my mind. Usually these were with friends who exceeded me in my strengths I cherish, like my drawing. Or even when they openly proclaim their passion for another character who I adored. But I could never tell them that I was jealous because well, it's embarrassing. I'd never want them to see me as bitter and petty in any way. Although, it does show in my later interactions with them. 

Yeah, that's pretty much my ideal relationship. Just the two of us together against the world. The very thought of it is potent. :blushed:

And I will get to that Fine Distinctions thread very soon. Been fighting off a lingering stomachache the past few days. :frustrating:


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

My stance on this has changed over the years as I've adjusted how I define and understand certain emotions and concepts.

I used to insist I was not at all competitive, to the bewilderment of my friends, who could very plainly see how personally I take competition. It's because I equated "competitive" with a traditional type of perfectionism, which is not me. But I've come to see that I have my very own type of perfectionism, and a furiously competitive streak.

I feel like "losing" is a reflection on my worth overall. Like, if I lose at a new video game, I can't just see it as "Well, I'm still learning". Instead, I take it as a statement on my overall competence, judgment, and how quickly I am capable of learning something new. But if I win, I feel a sick kind of glee that is truly rooted in pain and insecurity - Surely I just got lucky, surely I just fooled everyone, and should quit while I'm ahead. The insecurity never sleeps.

Unofficial competition is even worse. If I take pride in something but am overlooked or misunderstood because someone else is better at that thing -- I'll be so upset. I don't have to be objectively the most skilled, but I want to be acknowledged or understood by people important to me. It's especially bad when there's something that is "my" area, but someone takes it over. Like being the go-to art person at work, until someone new comes in and becomes that person instead. Awful.

Worst of all is competition with regards to romantic interests - which is always unofficial as I am very careful not to let on to how pathetic I am. Usually (my current partner is pretty aware). Like even though I am in a very special and meaningful relationship with someone I've more or less wanted back for ten years (ummm not like, actively, but they were like ~~the one who kinda got away~~~), someone who is wild about me, someone I feel more compatible with than anyone else I've been with -- I still feel in competition with all the ~better~ people they will meet in the future. Doesn't matter if he admires quality X in me, I know he will eventually meet someone who has quality X^2. I also feel in competition with his past, his exes, even though I know none of them pose a threat. Yes, I'd like to feel like I "won" -- but when will that happen? What will it take? When will enough be enough? Seems like nothing will ever convince me.

So bottom line is: I hate competition because I take it too personally, but I'm always aware of it in some form of another, and it doesn't even matter when I "win" because it's never enough and only reinforces my need for affirmation of sorts. Envy is endless torment.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

*Good, bad, neutral?*
Generally bad

*Exhilarating or painful? *
Annoying 

*What does it mean to you? How does it work for you?*
It seems juvenile and beneath me. I want to voluntarily lose to show myself "above it". I won't try. 

*How do you respond when others try to compete with you?*
I often will be oblivious to it at first. Since I often identify with stuff I appreciate, beauty or whatever in others doesnt threaten me. The fact that I can see and appreciate it makes me feel good about myself. :tongue:
If I catch on, then I let them "win" out of a kind of contemptuous pity. I figure if they really need it, then let them have it. I feel "above" needing it. I realize this is my way of "winning".

*Is that flattering or offensive?
*It can be kind of flattering because I figure I must be _something_ if they see me as a threat :laughing:
Ultimately it is mostly annoying.... I resist being drawn into it, and when it has happened, I feel foolish.

*How do you feel about competitive individuals, or the competitiveness (or lack thereof) in yourself?*
Pathetic, insecure, petty, childish. I have prided myself on a lack of it, although my resentment at how mundane people are more valued or how my sister was the better-liked child growing up, etc, probably reveals some competative spirit I am in denial about. 

I don't like to be drawn into competition because it feels pathetic and insecure and I don't want to feel nor appear pathetic or insecure. "Losing" feels less pathetic to me when coupled with not caring. I tend to associate not caring with winning and caring with losing too....as in, the more I care, the more likely I will lose and the less I care the more likely I will win (because the lack of desperation makes me more appealing and clear-headed). This sort of makes me angry, like I can't care, and I also can feel shame about caring. 

So yeah, it is a defense for me to dismiss competition. My most conscious feeling is an ideal that people should all get what they need, and that we should all be valued as individuals, not that we should have to compete with some winning and some losing.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Quernus said:


> I still feel in competition with all the ~better~ people they will meet in the future. Doesn't matter if he admires quality X in me, I know he will eventually meet someone who has quality X^2. I also feel in competition with his past, his exes, even though I know none of them pose a threat. Yes, I'd like to feel like I "won" -- but when will that happen? What will it take? When will enough be enough? Seems like nothing will ever convince me.



Oh wait....GUILTY. Okay, this clarifies my own feeling.... I feel "competition" with non-existent stuff. Basically, I compare myself to fantasy ideals for myself, and I fall short, or I imagine other people/things that are better, but which usually are not a part of my actual reality or not confirmed to be. My competition is sort of with imagined possibilties or even imagined people. 

I also tend to make comparisons with distant people who are better in some way (more talented artists or better looking - whatever) to guage where I am at, and then I inevitably feel bad. I tend to not notice how I am superior or better, and if I do, then I feel ashamed of even thinking that way. I have had rather vain, angry rants in my head where I assure myself I am more X than some idiot who is giving me grief, but I feel ridiculous about it later. Like I said, my most conscious feeling is an ideal of everyone being valued and given opportunity to meet their needs and personal potential. It is almost like I feel less worthy or fear not having as much potential as some people though. Yeah, "not worthy" may be a feeling I have even if I "win", like maybe I am a fraud or something.

I wrote a crappy song-like poem about this when I was in college. 

* *





Yes I am jealous
because she is such a swan
and you are such a dear, and how you fawn
you're brimming over with praise
oh, she's everything I'm not


If there was something better
- and there always is -
well why shouldn't you admire it?


If there is someone better
- as there undoubtedly is -
well why shouldn't you desire her?


I don't venture into the present world
because I'm scared of being crucified
I don't advertise my heart to anyone;
It's never valued as high as it's priced


Can you tell?
Can you tell?
Can you tell?
I'm just some pathetic fool
and my head is swollen with panic
My thoughts are running as a rule
and causing imagined damage


Can you tell?
I am so jealous
Because I am such a fraud
and you are slowly catching on
and she is slowly catching up
oh, she has everything you want...


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> Oh wait....GUILTY. Okay, this clarifies my own feeling.... I feel "competition" with non-existent stuff. Basically, I compare myself to fantasy ideals for myself, and I fall short, or I imagine other people/things that are better, but which usually are not a part of my actual reality or not confirmed to be. My competition is sort of with imagined possibilties or even imagined people.


YEEEEEEEPPPPPPP



> I also tend to make comparisons with distant people who are better in some way (more talented artists or better looking - whatever) to guage where I am at, and then I inevitably feel bad. I tend to not notice how I am superior or better, and if I do, then I feel ashamed of even thinking that way. I have had rather vain, angry rants in my head where I assure myself I am more X than some idiot who is giving me grief, but I feel ridiculous about it later. Like I said, my most conscious feeling is an ideal of everyone being valued and given opportunity to meet their needs and personal potential. It is almost like I feel less worthy or fear not having as much potential as some people though. Yeah, "not worthy" may be a feeling I have even if I "win", like maybe I am a fraud or something.


Yes. This makes so much sense, I relate. Even the "not distant" things I feel competitive about... it's because of some distant ideal I'm comparing myself to, what my loss symbolizes, not the actual loss itself. I hate myself for proving once again that I am not my ideal self, certain that I have been exposed as unlovable and irredeemable... meanwhile, everyone else has moved on and is not even thinking twice about the ordeal.


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## Liminal (Jul 18, 2016)

Ripped to sheds on the inside when competition enters the scene for the most part. Much of the time I don't know how to react because I'm usually wanting to enjoy the game without worrying about needing to win. It is strange to me that I do better and have more chance of winning if I'm not in a competitive situation.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

periwinklepromise said:


> Something I've seen come up in a couple of your posts is *the whole "more me than me" thing, *and I'm always just a little bit pleased, because when that happened to me in high school and I was finally able to articulate it - "*it's like she's more me than me" "she's living my life and she's doing it better than me"*, my audience just looked at me completely blankly. They just didn't get it.


Hm, okay, I can relate to this also. I suspect it is part of why I like being a distinct individual and dislike being compared to other people. Being compared to someone else's looks as a compliment can make me feel like I am just seeing a better looking version of myself. Having my personality, style, etc, compared to someone else makes me feel "replaceable", and even if that person seems, er, lesser, it awakens the idea that there are lots of other "me's" out there, and that inevitably some will be better, aka, "the better version of me". It is as if my ideal self is lurking around the corner, but it's not me, it's someone else (sort of how some 6s fear some unidentifiable boogeyman jumping out that they can't quite pinpoint). When not living up to your ideal, there is at least a comfort of "it is not realistic anyway". 

So, if you are not quite like anyone else, well then, they cannot be a "better version of you". If I lose, I don't really lose, because it is comparing apples to an orange (oooh - look at that!). It is not about winning so much as "doing it my way".

Most of these "the person I should have been" people are imagined though. Sometimes I see people with a similar drawing style and I grumble that I didnt manage to make a living at it, because I deemed my cartoons too crappy, yet there they are...making money at it. I had a cousin who was studying and travelling abroad while in college, something I had wanted to do and didnt get to, and I felt like she was living the life I should have had. I have a sense of having sacrificed myself for something nobler than me, but which is not really gratifying to me. 

I don't often know these people though....as noted, they are very "distant". On an intellectual level, I know if I got to know them, that the grass would not be greener. 

I have also crafted a somewhat enviable image. People in my life who are not close may imagine I have no problems, have had no struggles, and that I am very charmed. I have a paranoia that they seek to uncover what is bad about me, ready to tear me down, all to make themselves feel better. I am keenly aware people may admire you but not _like_ you, and that sometimes being admirable makes you unlikable because it threatens people. I feel angry that maybe I have to tone myself down. Again, there is that feeling of having sacrificed "myself" in order to be "good".


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

OrangeAppled said:


> Hm, okay, I can relate to this also. I suspect it is part of why I like being a distinct individual and dislike being compared to other people. Being compared to someone else's looks as a compliment can make me feel like I am just seeing a better looking version of myself. Having my personality, style, etc, compared to someone else makes me feel "replaceable", and even if that person seems, er, lesser, it awakens the idea that there are lots of other "me's" out there, and that inevitably some will be better, aka, "the better version of me".


Yes to this. Feeling replaceable is the _worst_. I want to be the kind of person you can't replace, and I like to imagine I _am_ that kind of person, but well. People manage to get along without me just fine.

I'm not sure how related this is, but I'm reminded of it, and it does seem to tie in around this competition of image thing (and Animal doesn't normally care about my going on weird tangents on her threads?). But I get a similar feeling/have a similar reaction online. (On tumblr especially, since that's the only social site I'm on) there's the whole "about me", "same", "tag urself", "wow i so completely relate this is so me" concept/culture, and to me, when I see it happening, it feels so shallow, but I judge it *most especially* when it's something *I* relate to strongly, when it's something that resonates with me personally. I react like, "No, _I'm_ the one who feels this way, all these other 80,000 people who interacted with this post are lying/exaggerating." 

I guess it might be this kind of thing you mention in your post, like maybe I'm threatened that somebody out there is (secretly?) a "better version of me." Certain text posts touch on essential aspects of my personality/self-image, and I hate the idea that somebody else could ever _possibly_ think of them as just as essential to _their_ personality. 

but they probably do. gross. this sucks.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Animal said:


> Good, bad, neutral? Exhilarating or painful? What does it mean to you? How does it work for you? How do you respond when others try to compete with you? Is that flattering or offensive? How do you feel about competitive individuals, or the competitiveness (or lack thereof) in yourself?
> 
> Please discuss.


Not worth it, specially if self-worth is tied to it. Ultimately I want to be happy because I like me, not because others do. The latter just feels empty.


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## Lone Adventurer (Jul 2, 2016)

With myself? Yes.

With others? No, thanks.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

> Good, bad, neutral? Exhilarating or painful? What does it mean to you? How does it work for you? How do you respond when others try to compete with you? Is that flattering or offensive? How do you feel about competitive individuals, or the competitiveness (or lack thereof) in yourself?
> 
> Please discuss.


It would depend on said ''competition,'' type(s). 

----> Sport(s) / Athleticism / Emotional + mind games or comparison ''competitions,'' [manipulative] psychological + ''dick / boob,'' measuring competitions... _Count me out_... --> *Bad, neutral*.


----> Games-types [e.g., brain-games / puzzles / digital / strategy-knowledgeable] competitions .. (?) _Count me in _... :cooler: -->* Good.*


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Animal said:


> At 18 or so, I became obsessed with a guy who struck me as everything I lost - innocent, a musician, a heart of gold, hope, beauty, etc. We became close. Things got fucked up, mostly because he was evasive and I was crazy. (Trauma.) Then a few years later, he moved across the country. I saw his myspace - some woman following his music. I clicked on her page and saw she was an amazing musician. Her voice sounded a lot like mine used to. She produced, wrote and recorded everything herself, and played several instruments. She was gorgeous. My heart dropped to my stomach. I knew he would fall for her. And a few days later, they changed their status to "in a relationship."
> 
> That week, I read Kafkas "letter to my father" and loved it. Then, in a matter of 4 days in which I barely slept or ate, I spat out about 400 pages . It was a letter to the guy I had a crush on.
> 
> I did bring up "us" and what had gone wrong (we never even kissed, but this obsession went deep, and we were close). But, the main thrust of the writing was about my voice, and HER. How she was everything I could have been. And he would have loved me if I had been. Etc. But really, the bulk of it was not about wanting him, or hating her. In fact, I admired her, couldn't bring myself to hate her; such a good person and it was very apparent. I was never that good, even before illness. Of course shes a clear 9w8 and they can look all sweet .... but no, this woman had suffered and overcome . (I did my research, lol.) She was nothing but beautiful and respectable; someone I wished I could hate, but as a fellow trauma survivor, I could not.


I have had a similar envy play out way too many times in my life, and every single time I avoid it. But I decided to face it this time, because really, I don't want to hate myself. What I have realized is that we just have some people who reach to us and make us feel safe on a very deep level, and we don't find people like that very often. So I may or may not be that for someone, as much as I would like to be. Then I get angry at myself saying that love is not a game, and if I want someone to trust me that much how could I be coming from a place of envy? That would be awful and I wouldn't trust myself. I still struggle with it but hopefully it gets much better.

For example, recently a 7 I really, really liked hurt me badly. He completely dismissed my feelings and said he doesn't "need to know them" but then how could he assume I would be okay with being (what was essentially heading towards) fwb with him? He doesn't even seem to care about me! He said he wanted to "keep things light" but he had wounded me so deeply. I cannot bear to be physically close to someone who I cannot be emotionally close to as well. It doesn't feel right. I remember seeing his picture on fb with another girl and he looked like he was in love. Really, I had never seen him that way with anyone else. It reminded me of what I had recently where he said he wanted to be with someone who was "happy, honest," etc. and I felt like I was falling short. I am not going to go into detail here but I resented him for making me feel worthless. Literally everything I was, was not good enough to him. I need to "love people more," "relax with the emotional intensity" and just like...I was so angry. In that moment I believed I don't exist to him, that he would rather I was someone else. What did he find attractive about me in the first place then?! I don't know...I am never going to know since I scared him away :/

But what it did bring me closer to is valuing in myself what others may not necessarily appreciate. 














formerly Azalea.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> Pathetic, insecure, petty, childish.* I have prided myself on a lack of it,* although my resentment at how mundane people are more valued or how my sister was the better-liked child growing up, etc, *probably reveals some competative spirit* I am in denial about.
> 
> I don't like to be drawn into competition because it feels pathetic and insecure and I don't want to feel nor appear pathetic or insecure. "Losing" feels less pathetic to me when coupled with not caring. I tend to associate not caring with winning and caring with losing too....as in, the more I care, the more likely I will lose and the less I care the more likely I will win (because the lack of desperation makes me more appealing and clear-headed). This sort of makes me angry, like I can't care, and I also can feel shame about caring.
> 
> So yeah, it is a defense for me to dismiss competition. My most conscious feeling is an ideal that people should all get what they need, and that we should all be valued as individuals, not that we should have to compete with some winning and some losing.


Completely agree with your last paragraph here. Yeah the more I have been trying to become conscious of envy, the more aware I become of my "competitiveness" even though I thought I didn't have it.


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