# Don't Be A Nice Guy! (Message for men in hetero dating)



## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

AyaSullivan said:


> @_strangestdude_ We must have a mind link or something.


You're gonna have to elaborate my sweet Aya. :happy:


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> You're gonna have to elaborate my sweet Aya. :happy:


I always thought about this many times and came to the conclusion that this is the only solution. Sorry for not elaborating much, I'm tired.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Haha, well I am all for gender equality. I just don't believe men and women are the same. For instance, cocky behavior, or being self-depreciative is just not accepted or expected under women like it is under men.


Cocky behavior and self depreciation is neither feminine or masculine. It is human behavior, its not a gender issue.


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## dvnj22 (Apr 24, 2013)

Reminds me of the IT crowd, "women only like bastards"! It's a good thing I beat women, and tell them get back in the kitchen!


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## Don Draper (Apr 16, 2013)

Man, so many threads on Nice Guys lately lol. 

Good post though, I think there is definitely a middle ground between being a nice person and being a complete asshole. Like you said, just being a decent guy.

However, I don't agree with the notion that alpha = asshole. They may come off that way to some people because they are on their own path in life (may appear selfish) and aren't influenced by the opinions of others. But the truly alpha dudes I've known in my life are genuinely concerned for the well-being of the important people in their life, just not in a supplicating, approval-seeking type of way like the Nice Guy.



strangestdude said:


> An alternative to selflessness - promoted by feminist and white knight culture - and selfishness - promoted by female attraction to assholes - *is focusing on exchange and sharing*... Being a decent guy.




Well put. I look at this as sharing positive emotions and good times.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Don Draper said:


> However, I don't agree with the notion that alpha = asshole. They may come off that way to some people because they are on their own path in life (may appear selfish) and aren't influenced by the opinions of others. But the truly alpha dudes I've known in my life are genuinely concerned for the well-being of the important people in their life, just not in a supplicating, approval-seeking type of way like the Nice Guy.


I actually agree, I should have made a better distinction in the OP. My bad.

There are Alphas who are kind and warm hearted, and there are alphas who are Machiavellian assholes. I too have been around alphas who though weren't 'sensitive' but they were warm, pleasant people to be around.


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## Don Draper (Apr 16, 2013)

Definitely. No question there are alpha guys who are assholes, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. A lot of times guys who are assholes do it seeking a reaction. They know if they take women on an emotional rollercoaster it will be more attractive than supplicating to them. Also, the bad boy stereotype is sexy, and can be pulled off easily if a guy can learn to control his thin-slice through body language and fashion.

One thing that I've found interesting, is why some women are attracted to assholes. It's a problem that is cultivated from the culture we live in that is obsessed with physical beauty. First, the asshole is going to give women a wide-range of emotions. Second, the asshole is going to verify a beautiful woman's perception of reality.

What do I mean by this?

All the time growing up beautiful women are told...you're so pretty, you're so great... and here, have all of this free stuff and do whatever you want. But yet, she can't find a decent guy (because there are a lot more assholes or nice guys)...so she comes to the conclusion that there must be something wrong with her. Then the asshole comes in and tells her, maybe not directly, that there IS something wrong with her. _Finally! Someone who understands me and doesn't put me a on a pedestal with unrealistic expectations!_

This is just a generalization of course. A lot of times when you see a beautiful woman with a real asshole, this is what's going on.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Don Draper said:


> All the time growing up beautiful women are told...you're so pretty, you're so great... and here, have all of this free stuff and do whatever you want. But yet, she can't find a decent guy (because there are a lot more assholes or nice guys)...so she comes to the conclusion that there must be something wrong with her. Then the asshole comes in and tells her, maybe not directly, that there IS something wrong with her. _Finally! Someone who understands me and doesn't put me a on a pedestal with unrealistic expectations!_


Original hypothesis. I haven't heard that one before.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

mushr00m said:


> Cocky behavior and self depreciation is neither feminine or masculine. It is human behavior, its not a gender issue.


I don't say the behavior is masculine or feminine per se, in the sense that women can also behave cocky. But how it is accepted or valued under men or women is different. And there's loads of research that for instance point out that on average men tend to overestimate themselves and women tend to underestimate themselves, or similar findings. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just different. It may have it's roots in evolution, then contained and conditioned through cultural tradition, but not necessarily something that will always be that way.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

Meh..known this for a while, really. Women are emotional creatures, they like the emotional roller-coaster assholes make them go through..though they will never, ever admit it. The trick to nice guys is the middle way..be nice, but be pretty intolerant of their bullshit.


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## cricket (Jan 10, 2011)

Refrain from rant, refrain from rant........ :frustrating:

I wish the guy with the mic had asked all the guys he interviewed if they were in relationships. I think all of it is generalizing. Personally, many of those guys who answered "asshole" I found to be quite unattractive. 

Phew, I made it!


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

Emerald Legend said:


> Meh..known this for a while, really. Women are emotional creatures, they like the emotional roller-coaster assholes make them go through..though they will never, ever admit it.


On a Typology website you're going to pull out "women are emotional creatures" bullshit?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

mushr00m said:


> Cocky behavior and self depreciation is neither feminine or masculine. It is human behavior, its not a gender issue.


Btw, actually I meant self-depreciating not so much in the sense of having and expressing a negative self-image, but as in being modest, intended to level out with the other and actually to prevent the other person to feel bad about oneself. For instance:



> The first explanation presented by the authors is what they call the Power Dead-Even Rule. There are three essential elements to a woman's happiness, the authors write: relationships, power and self-esteem. In order for a relationship to be strong, power and self-esteem must be equally balanced. If one woman gains more power or self-esteem, the relationship with the other woman is damaged.
> 
> _The Invisible Rule_
> Although invisible, the authors insist that most women live by this unspoken rule. For example, women will often take steps to balance the power and self-esteem with a friend and colleague whenever an imbalance threatens. Imagine, for example, that Sandra compliments a colleague, Martha, for her great new suit. "This old thing?" Martha might say. "I got it on sale." By complimenting her colleague on the new suit, Sandra increased Martha's power and self-esteem. Martha immediately brought the power and self-esteem back into balance by denigrating her suit.
> ...


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

What do you define as feminist? I'm curious because most women I know who identify as such are attracted to and seeking this "decent" man. I realize it's a term with a somewhat subjective meaning though.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

cricket said:


> Refrain from rant, refrain from rant........


Why would you want to hold something like that in?

Surely it's tearing you up inside?

Why don't women let men know what's on their mind?

You make me sad...

:sad:


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

Sonny said:


> On a Typology website you're going to pull out "women are emotional creatures" bullshit?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Veggie said:


> What do you define as feminist?


There are 2 types of feminists...

Hyper-sensitive misandrists, and egalitarian women's rights activists.






:happy:



> I'm curious because most women I know who identify as such are attracted to and seeking this "decent" man.


I'm skeptical.


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## cricket (Jan 10, 2011)

(regarding what was going to be an angry rant)
In short--
Be whoever you really are, because women choose men based on how they view themselves. I'm not talking about fantasy, but reality. I mean, _why_ would a self-respecting woman subject herself to being treated like dirt by an asshole? I have single friends who wish they had a "nice guy," some who have settled down with "nice guys" and are very happy, and some who have settled down with assholes and wish they hadn't (or) hope/think that he will turn into a nice guy. I've never understood it. Both me and my guy are "nice people" but occasionally we are assholes to each other. That's life. I guess that categorizes us as "decent"?
In conclusion, I think after the 500th "Nice Guys Finish Last(?)" thread, it could be safe to say that *in many, many cases*, men will be what they want to gain, and women will take what they think they deserve. If you are failing in the dating world, I don't believe it's because you are nice or because you practice chivalry or whatever. Part of it could be it's not the right girl for you.
I did like part of the first video where the guy asked of the men, "Where are your standards?" In general though, that guy seemed a little aggressive; not my cuppa tea. I think my boyfriend would probably agree with most of everything you have said though. WhatcanIsay.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Emerald Legend said:


> Meh..known this for a while, really. Women are emotional creatures, they like the emotional roller-coaster assholes make them go through..though they will never, ever admit it. The trick to nice guys is the middle way..be nice, but be pretty intolerant of their bullshit.



 O, come on guys! She fell for an asshole just as much (or as little) as Mr Nice Guy fell for a bitch. That's how he called her *after* she rejected him, like she would *ultimately* conclude her (Bad) BF was an asshole. 

But Mr Nice Guy didn't fall for her because she was a bitch. There are lots of nice single women available for romance, why did he choose to invest so much in this 'platonic' friendship? Because she was a challenge to him. He hoped he could get her once it was clear to her how good he really was, prepared to do everything for her.

But he wasn't a challenge for her. Mr Bad Boy was. He was emotionally unavailable, and may not have treated her well, but she hoped he would commit to her, once it would be clear to him how good she really was, prepared to do everything for him. 

Never did I have so many girls fall in love with me in the 2 or 3 years after breaking up a romantic relationship, that had lasted 2 years, which was a huge delusion for me. I needed to know what went wrong, since it wasn't a lack of passion. Until I had figured that out, and found out what love was, I felt I wasn't ready for romance and commit myself exclusively. I was honest and clear about that upfront. Nevertheless, it seemed to work like an aphrodisiac for her, make her want more.







(As it appeared to be bound having to break her heart sooner or later, at some point I stopped meeting any women at all, for over a year. After that I felt I was ready and had a successful long term relation). 

Anyway, my point being...I don't think it has much to do with being an asshole, but more with how our brain reward system works. When we accomplished something easily, it feels less valuable and gratifying than when it was difficult to achieve and it was 'hard-to-get'. If it doesn't challenge, and we can take it for granted, we may easily feel bored, or even become negligent. This is something any relationship has to deal with, not just at the time of courtship. We don't always desire what we value, but value what we desire and easily undervalue what we take for granted. Until of course, we lost it. If we desire something we don't have, and it's hard to get, it may fuel our passion (also feed anger, frustration, envy), sometimes making it seem more important than everything we are blessed with. Whether you want to 'gain' something more valuable, or think you 'deserve' better.



> The thing with dopamine, though, is that it's a little...temperamental.
> If you overindulge in the reward in question, for instance, less dopamine might be released when you obtain it: it's as if the body has subconsciously learnt that the prize is a dead certainty, and there’s no need for biochemical meddling to promote reward-seeking behavior.
> Bad Boys, Bad Brains | Psychology Today
> 
> The Allure of the Bad Boy | Psychology Today


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

We could always theorize the problems originate from a majority of uneducated on both sides doing stupid shit and trying to figure out what went wrong. Then, because a majority do stupid shit, we have what appears to be lots of problems. When in fact, if you simply refrain from doing stupid shit, you may turn out all right. Long story short, if you are capable of even closely ball-parking your own self-worth, are not psychotic or sociopathic, and have a somewhat decent sense of style and hygiene, you will be fine.


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## Villainous (Dec 31, 2012)

Be A nice guy, not THE NICE GUY


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Emerald Legend said:


> Meh..known this for a while, really. Women are emotional creatures, they like the emotional roller-coaster assholes make them go through..though they will never, ever admit it. The trick to nice guys is the middle way..be nice, but be pretty intolerant of their bullshit.


Cuz all women are the same.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

chimeric said:


> Cuz all women are the same.


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

@Emerald Legend I'm not upset. You're just wrong. :happy:


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

Yeah... Okay. Maybe try figuring out what YOU believe, rather than simply trying to change who you are according to what worked for someone else.


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## Archetype (Mar 17, 2011)

Emerald Legend said:


> Meh..known this for a while, really. Women are emotional creatures, they like the emotional roller-coaster assholes make them go through..though they will never, ever admit it. The trick to nice guys is the middle way..be nice, but be pretty intolerant of their bullshit.


Women are emotional, at least once a month  JK
Anyway, thing that nice guys lack is how to stand up for themself and the typical nice guys usually have the insecurity. Bad boys don't have this insecurity, they don't need women recognition, which indicate of emotional independence. If you want to selflessly help a girl you like or do "nice guy" stuff, just do because you want to do it, don't do it for for recognition.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

chimeric said:


> @_Emerald Legend_ I'm not upset. You're just wrong. :happy:


I could be. I don't go out much.


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## CrystallineSheep (Jul 8, 2012)

Guys who scream, "No women like me because I am the nice guy" just seem to me like they can't accept that may be a woman doesn't want to date them, regardless of how they act. I always find that some immature men like to always blame the woman for being picky, having expectations etc. etc. for any failed romantic interaction. Not to say all men do this but it is common. A stable woman is going to go for a man who she thinks is compatible for her and if it happens not to be you then you just have to brush yourself off. Don't make excuses for it. It only harms yourself. I don't see any evidence of the asshole guy getting all the stable relationships. Yes, it may seem all the 'hot babes' and the 'asshole guys' are getting together and swimming in each others confidence and boosting self-esteems but life is more complex than that. The whole nice guy complex just seem like "I am too holy for the shallow women of the world who need a man to boss them around, woe me". As a woman (or young girl, whatever) I find the nice gentleman to be attractive and a redeeming quality in a partner. It be crazy to want the opposite. Yes, it may seem that some women might find a protective guy alluring than so be it but I don't even see that connecting towards the asshole guy syndrome. Some women might like a rebel guy and even then I don't see how equals asshole guy. No self-respecting woman wants to be with a man who is going to be an asshole to her. End of the story. Women do not think of themselves that low. And I think it is demeaning for a man to think a woman would ever want that.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Yeah... Okay. Maybe try figuring out what YOU believe, rather than simply trying to change who you are according to what worked for someone else.


Who is that aimed at?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

IndustrialClef said:


> Guys who scream, "No women like me because I am the nice guy" just seem to me like they can't accept that may be a woman doesn't want to date them, regardless of how they act.


Not true IME.

When I was a 'nice guy' to women (unconsciously), not once was a woman interested in me. And I when I was part decent guy, part asshole (again unconsciously) I found relationships, and had women proposition themselves (women I was friends with who were in long term relationships propositioned me when I was married). 



> I always find that some immature men like to always blame the woman for being picky, having expectations etc. etc. for any failed romantic interaction. Not to say all men do this but it is common. A stable woman is going to go for a man who she thinks is compatible for her and if it happens not to be you then you just have to brush yourself off. Don't make excuses for it.


That's easy to say when you don't have the cultural norm where you are expected to be the initiator in courtship.


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## Carmine Ermine (Mar 11, 2012)

Some facts to consider:-
* As many people will say, "most men are niceguys [negative connotation]". Let's say at least 60-70% of men are "niceguys", as a conservative estimate.
* According to Desmond Morris, 98% of people have a strong pair-bonding relationship in their lives. Most of those are therefore "niceguys".
* Oft-touted statistic: "10% of men don't have the father they think they have" - therefore, 90% of people do have the correct father. Most of these fathers are "niceguys".

Therefore, being a "niceguy" is good enough; there's a >90% chance you'll be fine just being a "niceguy", despite what the media and people say. If you want to get rid of that last 10% you can work at it, there's plenty of literature.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

I get the idea and I agree. *
Just Be a guy*. 
Don't be evil and don't be "_nice_", 
just be a guy, a normal person.


Tigers and bears in general are TIGERS AND BEARS, not "nice tigers" or "nice bears". Watch an animal in the wild, they are not bothering other animals, just minding their own business (eating, hunting it's another matter). They are walking around not being evil and NOT being nice, they just are. Be like that, just be a guy. That line of "be a nice guy" usually implies being a tiger that will be ehmmm not a tiger!!!!. We men get this easily with time, many women will get the advice of removing the "nice" as being evil but that's wrong. Many women will understand this when they raise male sons who become healthy adults.

Being nice or not nice depends on the context. Be flexible. I could say a lot more but been "there" many times, it's not needed, I understand the thread and I agree with it. A man with own direction gets a better life.


It's just difficult to discuss this openly, been there many times and usually threads go in diff directions (not intended by the OP) It's funny how many get the "just be a guy" as something dangerous, "hey just don't be an a...hole" ha ha, as if being a guy meant that, being a guy is like being a tiger, it's something neutral, a lot of things depend on you and how you approach the guy (or tiger).


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## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

changos said:


> *
> Just Be a guy*.
> Don't be evil and don't be "_nice_",
> just be a guy, a normal person.
> ...


Eloquently stated and effective in summarising the only things that truly need stating; much better who really needs descriptors or 'default gender settings' anyway when humans are complex enough without spending their lifespan trying to fit into neat boxes not intended for us all (just makes me think of how men are taught and encouraged to 'take charge and lead others confidently' from a young age, yet in reality most will never be politicians, top level managers, VPs or even world leaders but are still capable of governing their own lives).


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> Not true IME.
> 
> When I was a 'nice guy' to women (unconsciously), not once was a woman interested in me. And I when I was part decent guy, part asshole (again unconsciously) I found relationships, and had women proposition themselves (women I was friends with who were in long term relationships propositioned me when I was married).
> 
> ...



Sir, are you aware of 'cat and string' theory of attraction? 











By being a nice guy, you probably gave her everything and _beyond*, *_now you're not really a challenge to her. From what I understand women like to be chased, be it in conventional or unconventional ways. When there is no chase, there are only flying butterflies leaving her stomach..and you'll hear her protest " I don't feel the butterflies in my stomach anymore...", and oh boy, sometimes _the lady (or ladies) doth protest too much, methinks_, especially after you went beyond to make her happy. 

Overly nice guy being controlled by Mr. Dick = lonely death
Nice guy, but firm on principles/ not slave to Mr. Dick = winner!
Assholes = father of multiple children, but now being taken care of Mr. Overly nice guy. No worries...

But what do I know? Apparently not all women are the same. But all nice guys are, and they follow the same trend of being wiped off by Darwinian windshield. That should say a lot about women, shouldn't it?


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## Dolorous Haze (Jun 2, 2012)

Yeah! Those damn women ALL JUST WANT ASSHOLES. I try to be a "_nice guy" _to them, but they're still not attracted to me! If I take my time to be "nice", then I deserve her. That's my reward, right?! How dare they be with people whom they find attractive rather than me! I'm sure those guys she likes are assholes. Yeah, that's why she likes them. It's not because she's attracted to them, it's because they aren't as nice as I am.

There is another girl who I think might like me, but I'm waaay out of her league, obviously. So instead of dating someone who is attracted me, I'll continue to whinge about how girls hate people who treat them well. Sweeping generalisations are AWESOME!


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Dolorous Haze said:


> I didn't bother to read the OP


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## bombsaway (Nov 29, 2011)

@strangestdude
I'm not going to read through 6 pages of this thread to find out if someone has mentioned this already (they haven't on the first or last page anyway) but why are you bashing feminism? I agree with the concept of not being a 'nice' guy because usually 'nice' guys aren't nice and usually have issues, ime. However, I'd say that view, for me at least, stems from feminism. I dated a 'nice' guy a little while ago and he fulfilled what you call the white knight image but he too it to ridiculous extremes (i.e. he once took me to a cafe that I hadn't heard of before so I presumed he was leading the way there when he was actually following me and was so passive he didn't tell me we were walking in the wrong direction for about five minutes. -.-). The point here being that feminism has made me want to be treated equally. Not as something to be won. Not as something that you have to pussy foot around and be 'nice' to because I'm 'better' or more fragile and likely to break down if you confront me. I'm a person, just like you. Don't be nice. Don't be a dick. Just talk to me like an equal.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I'm going to say don't be envious of other people and then have an open pity party,because people will know the person is bitter. No one wants to date others that are bitter about their situation. Feel grateful of who you are and where you are in life, and people will connect with your positive thinking. Even though men are reared to play the conquest game,no one is really going to care if you don't have a large number of conquests in terms of lady friends with benefits, at the end of your life. Take a few breaths, and learn patience. Patience and positive thinking. All good things come to those who wait.

Also, no one is going to date a person who looks at them as a piece of meat. I really didn't care for it when the person I was dating just wanted to use me as an ATM machine. It's helpful to keep these ideas in mind, how are you coming across to the other person.


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## Dolorous Haze (Jun 2, 2012)

strangestdude said:


>


I did read the OP and I thought it was a pile of......nonsense. I wanted to say something else, but I will refrain.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

bombsaway said:


> I'm not going to read through 6 pages of this thread to find out if someone has mentioned this already (they haven't on the first or last page anyway) but why are you bashing feminism?


You might as well ask why a shark swims or why a bird flies, its just his nature.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Enough of this shit. IMO it's too far gone to be salvaged. Strangestdude would you consider making a new one?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Yeah this thread is a gonna get blocked soon...



Dolorous Haze said:


> Calling someone a 'bitch' and other derogatory words isn't funny. It isn't "British humour".


In all honesty... British people I've known would have seen the joke. The set up was pretty obvious. And they would have noticed the avatar and sig, and would have realized that sometimes I'm just fucking around.

Dry withering humor is a British specialty IME. 



> You called me a bitch while brushing off any arguments I had, which I did not appreciate. I do see how you might have thought it was a funny joke, but I warned you that some people might not see the funny side of things, and since you've been reported, I was right.


Yeah... 

Maybe I better save my humor for other forums. 

There are some people here who I like and want to keep in contact with.

Shame you guys are unable to recognize that someone with an avatar and sig about someone who is a nihilistic satirist, isn't always serious.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Nitou said:


> Enough of this shit. IMO it's too far gone to be salvaged.


I know, my poor thread!



> Strangestdude would you consider making a new one?


At least you appreciate them sugar :crying:

Peeps are hyper sensitive here... I don't know anymore... The hammer could drop any time... :sad:


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

bombsaway said:


> The being treated like a professional was also aimed at people whose main comment on her work is her attractiveness. Also, just because she was leaving the conference doesn't mean she was open for being chatted up. She was still there as a professional even if she was leaving. She didn't want fanboys chatting her up.


Maybe you should get together with your group and give us a list of when it's acceptable to be attracted to a woman?

But let me ask you this: do the same rules apply to men? If she'd talked to him that night would it have been an insult to his "professionalism?"

Honestly, I would never invite a girl to my place unless there was strong enough sexual tension to facilitate it but whether or not she's wearing her business suite or not is completely irrelevant. 

What angers me about the whole issue is the double standard. I would never embarrass/humiliate someone I had turned down for sex by going onto a public forum and talking about how much it offended me that someone such as her "dared" to proposition me because I generally treat people with common decency.

Instead, she got so caught up in her subjective emotions that she never bothered to try to see things from a different perspective, or even attempt at a spark of empathy, which points to her being the worst kind of dogmatic ideologue, turning some guy's fumbling attempt at approaching a woman (which can sometimes be a nervous event) into a speaking platform.

That the victim in this case is a man is irrelevant to me. If some guy started bragging about how he'd turned down a girl and how he felt "icky" that someone he was so unattracted to dared to insinuate something, I'd consider that man a complete and utter piece of shit and I'm very frustrated at this thread because I feel like if the genders were switched here, you'd have something very different to say, which is exactly the kind of closed-minded sexism and subjective problems that have been used to reinforce the patriarchal/racist culture.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> Shame you guys are unable to recognize that someone with an avatar and sig about someone who is a nihilistic satirist, isn't always serious.


Heh, it's funny you say that, because part of the point of the character is that he's a genuinely shitty person underneath the satirical pretensions, largely because of his nihilism. Huge misogynist as well. Hmm.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Edited, misunderstood at first.


Btmanagan said:


> Maybe you should get together with your group and give us a list of when it's acceptable to be attracted to a woman?


Where in the world did you get that? She said she was upset because some people's main comments on her and her role in the community related to her being attractive rather than her work. If you don't understand why a woman who's trying to participate in an intellectual community would be annoyed that most of the reaction to her contributions to that community are along the lines of "cool, she's hot" then I don't know what to tell you...


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Shahada said:


> Heh, it's funny you say that, because part of the point of the character is that he's a genuinely shitty person underneath the satirical pretensions, largely because of his nihilism. Huge misogynist as well. Hmm.


Yes, I'm just like the comedian shahada.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> Yes, I'm just like the comedian shahada.


No not really, you've just hugely misunderstood the character and the book itself it seems. Reminds me of people who watched Fight Club and started their own homegrown fight clubs and thought Tyler Durden was an admirable character.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Btmanagan said:


> What angers me about the whole issue is the double standard. I would never embarrass/humiliate someone I had turned down for sex by going onto a public forum and talking about how much it offended me that someone such as her "dared" to proposition me.


Yeah that strange guy who she'd never met before and never identified by name or description must have had his life ruined by the devastating libel of "Skepchick." A whole miniature orchestra is being assembled as we speak to play a mournful dirge for his reputation.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Shahada said:


> No not really, you've just hugely misunderstood the character and the book itself it seems. Reminds me of people who watched Fight Club and started their own homegrown fight clubs and thought Tyler Durden was an admirable character.


Never read it.

Never claimed to.

Watched the movie.

You're running away with your own perception.

You're reading too much into my avatar and sig.

You're being Shahada.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> You're reading too much into my avatar and sig.


You're the one who constantly points to it as a justification for your behavior bro.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Shahada said:


> You're the one who constantly points to it as a justification for your behavior bro.


Justification?

You're running away with your own perception...

Bro.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

OK.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Shahada said:


> Edited, misunderstood at first.Where in the world did you get that? She said she was upset because some people's main comments on her and her role in the community related to her being attractive rather than her work. If you don't understand why a woman who's trying to participate in an intellectual community would be annoyed that most of the reaction to her contributions to that community are along the lines of "cool, she's hot" then I don't know what to tell you...


The dude was trying to get laid. Period. End of story. 

If she was down to get under the sheets with this guy, she wouldn't have been concerned about the professional implications. What this strikes me as is a justification to get on a public forum and go "Hur durr, he guys, isn't it funny that this guy I am not attracted to had the nerve to try to engage sexually with me? What an idiot."

It's malicious and subjectively driven.

I mean if what she was trying to say is "if you're attracted to me, get me roses" or something, then I'm behind that, but if what she was saying was "ew, he's gross", then I am not.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Shahada said:


> "cool, she's hot" ...


Cool IS hot. She did kind of inspire some of those "I'm not into women but..." thoughts for me. I've been getting those thoughts more lately. Hmm. And complimenting one of the bosses at work: "You look fantastic! You're beautiful! You look like you're trying to get a promotion!" She is on the way up. She makes a ponytail and glasses look smoking hot and professional at the same time. I can't help but check out her butt. It's good to just be when there is no hint of sexual defensiveness. That makes it fun to flirt around with gay men too. good thing I'm not a guy and especially not a black guy. 

It's still not cool to proposition a woman for sex on an elevator at 4 am.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Btmanagan said:


> The dude was trying to get laid. Period. End of story.


So that makes what he did not creepy or inappropriate? I don't understand what point you're trying to make with this.


Btmanagan said:


> What this strikes me as is a justification to get on a public forum and go "Hur durr, he guys, isn't it funny that this guy I am not attracted to had the nerve to try to engage sexually with me? What an idiot."


It wasn't that he approached her, its that he approached her in an inappropriate way in an inappropriate venue. And again, she didn't call out this person by name, she didn't describe what he looked like, or anything, just recounted an anecdote that made her uncomfortable and explained to people, particularly guys, why such behavior made her feel uncomfortable. It sounds like you're not actually paying attention to what was said and are instead attacking a strawman. Obviously it would be narcissistic and lame to go "wow this loser tried to talk to me lol what an ugly retard" like you're implying happened, but it was nothing like that at all.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Shahada said:


> So that makes what he did not creepy or inappropriate? I don't understand what point you're trying to make with this. It wasn't that he approached her, its that he approached her in an inappropriate way in an inappropriate venue. And again, she didn't call out this person by name, she didn't describe what he looked like, or anything, just recounted an anecdote that made her uncomfortable and explained to people, particularly guys, why such behavior made her feel uncomfortable. It sounds like you're not actually paying attention to what was said and are instead attacking a strawman. Obviously it would be narcissistic and lame to go "wow this loser tried to talk to me lol what an ugly retard" like you're implying happened, but it was nothing like that at all.


If this guy was 10/10 soul-mate material she wouldn't have talked about why it wasn't okay to happen, she'd be psyched.

You'd be psyched.

I'd be psyched.

We all scream for ice cream. 

That's the problem here. And I am attacking a strawman because I have very little actual knowledge about what went down. I'm talking out my ass. But I suspect there is a kernel of truth in what I'm saying here. 

In the end, we weren't in that elevator. The dude in there could have been a serial rapist.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Nitou said:


> It's still not cool to proposition a woman for sex on an elevator at 4 am.


I disagree.

The way I see the situation...

Dude liked her looks, saw her later on in an elevator and took the discreet opportunity to proposition her.

There was nothing intrinsically wrong with what he did.

If she showed clear non-verbal communication that she didn't even want to talk to him - to proposition her was idiotic and creepy.

If they had a a quick conversation with a warm rapport, and he made a 'hail mary' proposition before one of them left the elevator - c'mon!

But it's funny how this issue can still spark vehement debates.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Shahada said:


> You're the one who constantly points to it as a justification for your behavior bro.





strangestdude said:


> Justification?
> 
> You're running away with your own perception...
> 
> Bro.


I pictured this:


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Btmanagan said:


> If this guy was 10/10 soul-mate material she wouldn't have talked about why it wasn't okay to happen, she'd be psyched.


But he wasn't, and chances are 10/10 soulmate material wouldn't approach you as a total stranger in an elevator and proposition you for sex while you're going about your business. That's generally something that is thought of as weird and creepy by most people.


Btmanagan said:


> In the end, we weren't in that elevator. The dude in there could have been a serial rapist.


Well yeah, that's the whole point: She didn't know who this guy was or anything, and he's propositioning her for sex (or, excuse me, a cup of coffee, in his hotel room, at 4am) in a hotel elevator. That's why its creepy and inappropriate. And then she goes online and says "hey guys, FYI, doing this kind of thing is creepy and inappropriate even if you don't realize it, it will make a lot of women uncomfortable." Then a bunch of dudes got mad that a woman could have the nerve to have a reaction to being propositioned for sex that wasn't wide-eyed gratitude.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> I disagree.


Just want to say I welcome you and anyone else who doesn't think this is creepy or inappropriate to hang out in hotel elevators in the middle of the night and proposition women. I'm sure you will be proven right that this is totally normal behavior and you will not be treated as creepy weirdos by most of the women you encounter.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Shahada said:


> Just want to say I welcome you and anyone else who doesn't think this is creepy or inappropriate to hang out in hotel elevators in the middle of the night and proposition women. I'm sure you will be proven right that this is totally normal behavior and you will not be treated as creepy weirdos by most of the women you encounter.


Stop being silly.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

You're right, expecting anyone advancing that argument without irony to go outside is a bit much.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> Christ...
> 
> Have you ever been clubbing?


It's just common sense. Some people feel claustrophobic in an elevator. It's already a circumstance of being trapped physically. Even if you are a so called cold caller, it just doesn't display any notion of the position of the other. 

For him it was probably the safest place, feeling it would be without anyone seeing him being rejected. So it's not only unthoughtful and inconsiderate, but it strikes me as cowardly also. It doesn't sound very charming either, indeed a bit desperate like 'can't blame me for trying!' 

Always fun after a night clubbing to hear my female friends tell about the cold-callers that night. Like someone approaching a friend opening the conversation with the question, pointing at me dancing (after, hi, enjoying yourself?) 'Is that your boyfriend?' Duh....:dry: Happens quite often actually. (and she would lie saying I am) I guess cold callers have no time to waste, since they're doing the numbers, so they like to get down to it...so to speak.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

mimesis said:


> For him it was probably the safest place, feeling it would be without anyone seeing him being rejected. So it's not only unthoughtful and inconsiderate, but it strikes me as cowardly also. It doesn't sound very charming either, indeed a bit desperate like 'can't blame me for trying!'


Perhaps he wanted to be discreet ie. away from colleagues, cameras, etc. 

I don't know why people automatically assume negative motivations on the man's part.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> Sigh... You people have no sense of humor.
> 
> That's one of the things that baffles me with people on PerC.


----------



## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> I disagree.
> 
> The way I see the situation...
> 
> ...


She said "Don't do that. It makes me uncomfortable." She speaks for many women. She's giving men helpful advice on how to relate to women. And you guys don't like it! 

Okay then. We're free here (sort of), right? Women are free to turn into Jabba the Hut's sister and men should not be turned off and complain about it. Men are free to be drunken elevator creepers and women should not be turned off and complain about it. Yep.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> Perhaps he wanted to be discreet ie. away from colleagues, cameras, etc.
> 
> I don't know why people automatically assume negative motivations on the man's part.


I don't know why you are making it a blame game again. Or 'intentions were good' and stuff. What matters is if the intentions are also received that way, because she is the one who decides in this case. And he puts her in a position where she may feel trapped, and worry about what happens if she says no. If you don't understand that, well good luck to you. 

Suppose you would be in that elevator, and some muscled guy a head taller than you, looks at you with a seducing look and proposes to you to come and look at his collection of anal probes in his hotel room...


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Suppose you would be in that elevator, and some muscled guy a head taller than you, looks at you with a seducing look and proposes to you to come and look at his collection of anal probes in his hotel room...


I'm pansexual. I would take him up on that offer if I was attracted to him.

Feeling threatened or not would depend on my mood, and his non-verbal communication. I wouldn't think he's done anything intrinsically wrong.

I like this balanced view from 10:00 from this woman...


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> I'm pansexual. I would take him up on that offer if I was attracted to him.
> 
> Feeling threatened or not would depend on my mood, and his non-verbal communication. I wouldn't think he's done anything intrinsically wrong.
> 
> I like this balanced view from 10:00 from this woman...


So what if you didn't find him attractive, or wasn't sure if you could trust him?

Comment on the video, I don't see the balanced view there. Your point seems to be 'he can't help that she feels unsafe'. 

Again you make it intrinsic and a personal attribution (even call it 'mood') and don't see the situational attribution /interplay /dynamic. I wouldn't say moods change really when in an elevator, not as strong for everyone. But the same thing in a different context can have a different response. We have an expression, which is translated, 'a cat who feels trapped may make strange moves', meaning _when someone is in danger or under pressure, you'll never know what he/she might do, they might act strangely or dangerously_.

That woman in her example was afraid at night alone. It would already be different at daytime. That's why I said, I wouldn't make my move in an elevator, even more so when you don't know eachother at all, and I wouldn't even make a move unless again, I had picked up implicit signals. Now of course there may also be personal factors, like neuroticism, (availability) bias, (racial) prejudice, etc. But there's nothing, or not really much you can do about the other person, you can only look at what you can do different yourself. 

You don't have to agree with me, but I'm not the one starting one thread after another about courtiship. I don't have an issue with it, although I have made stupid mistakes in the past. I don't claim to know the Truth, but I do know what has worked for me, and I spend time here to share that, giving my opinion, and it's up to you or anyone to judge whether you can bring it to your own advantage. If you disagree, and don't think it's in any way useful, that's fine with me.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

mimesis said:


> You don't have to agree with me, but I'm not the one starting one thread after another about courtiship.


Right... And that was relevant to what we were discussion because...?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> Right... And that was relevant to what we were discussion because...?


It appears to me you are unsatisfied with how things go, and are looking how to improve this. But it seems you keep sticked your guns of blaming and shaming, rather than taking control and learn about human interaction. 



> Unfortunately feminist and chivalrous culture has converged to a point where many dudes in hetero dating feel they have to 'put women first'. They become nice guys - neglecting their own needs and desires, which often contributes to a build up of resentment towards self and others.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

mimesis said:


> It appears to me you are unsatisfied with how things go, and are looking how to improve this. But it seems you keep sticked your guns of blaming and shaming, rather than taking control and learn about human interaction.


OK. Thanks for the character analysis.

Pretty accurate too.

I'll have to think about that.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> OK. Thanks for the character analysis.
> 
> Pretty accurate too.
> 
> I'll have to think about that.


I wouldn't say character. At least not in terms of good/bad, but perception and (behavioral) strategy (which is different from intention). Fwiw I don't blame you, and I don't think you should blame yourself either.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

mimesis said:


> I wouldn't say character. At least not in terms of good/bad, but perception and (behavioral) strategy (which is different from intention). Fwiw I don't blame you, and I don't think you should blame yourself either.


:ninja:


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Well, nice and timid is different than nice and bold.

I bet it takes a shit load of balls to be nice, and be willing to reach out to people, or stand up for values.

Sharing and exchange though.. hmm that sort of sounds like pragmatism. "Be the norm" Am I wrong in how I'm interpreting it? I mean nice guys are just as rare as assholes are, I mean not that rare, but the norm is more of an exchange and sharing culture I think. What ya say?


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Anyone who does not understand why being propositioned by a stranger in a confined space in the middle of the night is unnerving should consider themselves lucky, as they probably do not have scads of experiences of being harassed by aggressive, angry strangers to reflect back on.

Secondly, if you're taking dating advice from someone who can't fathom why an approach like that is discomforting, perhaps you should look for dating advice elsewhere.



Cetanu said:


> /endthread


Would that it'd have been so.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chimeric said:


> Anyone who does not understand why being propositioned by a stranger in a confined space in the middle of the night is unnerving should consider themselves lucky, as they probably do not have scads of experiences of being harassed by aggressive, angry strangers to reflect back on.


I've been propositioned by a stranger in the middle of the night. I think she was a prostitute. She said "Want some company?". To be fair I was in Kings Cross at the time. I shook my head and walked away. I'm curious as to what would've happened if I said yes. I probably would have AIDS and minus $200.

Also, I challenge the idea that women are vulnerable to aggressive or angry strangers who've just been rejected. I am of the belief that anyone can release the fury and tell someone to/make someone fuck off.


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> Also, I challenge the idea that women are vulnerable to aggressive or angry strangers who've just been rejected. I am of the belief that anyone can release the fury and tell someone to/make someone fuck off.


Not if you're alone in a confined space and are physically weaker.

Even if you _are_ comfortable telling them to fuck off, it still wasn't particularly cool of them to approach you in that manner. Mentioning that fact online is not the ultimate injustice.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chimeric said:


> Not if you're alone in a confined space and are physically weaker.


It's a confidence issue more than it is a strength issue.

Just because you can't win a straight up fist fight, doesn't mean you can't fight dirty. Stab nuts and shins with stilettos, jab the eyes and throat with your nails/fingers.

Muscle is only strong against a weaker muscle... Muscle can't beat intelligence and smarter moves.

Source: Did Wing Chun for 6 years, know tiny women who've beaten the shit out of large men/thieves/assailants using minimal effort.


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> It's a confidence issue more than it is a strength issue.
> 
> Just because you can't win a straight up fist fight, doesn't mean you can't fight dirty. Stab nuts and shins with stilettos, jab the eyes and throat with your nails/fingers.
> 
> ...


Still doesn't change the fact that it's an inherently impractical/creepy (depending on your perspective) way to proposition someone.

I'd be shocked if a single PerC woman responded and said she would feel totally comfortable being propositioned by a stranger in a confined space in the middle of the night.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chimeric said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that it's an inherently impractical/creepy (depending on your perspective) way to proposition someone.
> 
> I'd be shocked if a single PerC woman responded and said she would feel totally comfortable being propositioned by a stranger in a confined space in the middle of the night.


Duh, but I never argued against that


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> Duh, but I never argued against that


Glad you find it obvious. Several posters here haven't.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chimeric said:


> Glad you find it obvious. Several posters here haven't.


I put it down to lack of empathy. It's a learned thing. Most men would think "But I'm normal? I'm not a creep? Why don't they want to talk to me?" which, you have to admit, is saddening that it has to be that way (well, to me it is) but from the female perspective, if it is night time and you are in a small area, unless nothing bad has ever existed to you in your entire life, you would have survival instincts to get away from that situation.

Many men do their absolute best to avoid being creepy in any way possible. Again, I find it sad. But that's the world we live in.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Now peeps talking about being confident and fighting off a stranger who might try to violate your boundaries again up after propositioning you inappropriately eww. 

Attention Gentlemen! This is NOT the the kind of train of thought you want a woman to have about you! Guys, don't do that!

Lol and Duh...


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Nitou said:


> Now peeps talking about being confident and fighting off a stranger who might try to violate your boundaries again up after propositioning you inappropriately eww.
> 
> Attention Gentlemen! This is NOT the the kind of train of thought you want a woman to have about you! Guys, don't do that!
> 
> Lol and Duh...


There's a difference between potential harassment/violence and ACTUAL harassment/violence.

For instance, I wouldn't poke someones eyes out because they SEEM like they are about to hit on you. That's a bit extreme.


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## ilphithra (Jun 22, 2010)

Cetanu said:


> There's a difference between potential harassment/violence and ACTUAL harassment/violence.
> 
> For instance, I wouldn't poke someones eyes out because they SEEM like they are about to hit on you. That's a bit extreme.


Indeed... but if you don't scram after I tell you to scram more than once, you're in for being a soprano for a while...


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Cetanu said:


> There's a difference between potential harassment/violence and ACTUAL harassment/violence.
> 
> For instance, I wouldn't poke someones eyes out because they SEEM like they are about to hit on you. That's a bit extreme.


Yes and my point is if your behavior causes women to think about taking a class in self-defense then you're doing it wrong!


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Nitou said:


> Yes and my point is if your behavior causes women to think about taking a class in self-defense then you're doing it wrong!


Wouldn't you want to be able to defend yourself if the circumstance ever arose?



ilphithra said:


> Indeed... but if you don't scram after I tell you to scram more than once, you're in for being a soprano for a while...


Yeah, if someone didn't leave me alone after I asked them nicely to, I would then be prepared to maim them.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Cetanu said:


> Wouldn't you want to be able to defend yourself if the circumstance ever arose?


This is the second time you have apparently misunderstood what I was trying to say. Never mind.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Nitou said:


> This is the second time you have apparently misunderstood what I was trying to say. Never mind.


What you were saying didn't occur to me at first, because my behavior doesn't make anyone think they need self-defense classes.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

chimeric said:


> Anyone who does not understand why being propositioned by a stranger in a confined space in the middle of the night is unnerving should consider themselves lucky, as they probably do not have scads of experiences of being harassed by aggressive, angry strangers to reflect back on.


Had plenty of racist abuse from strangers throughout my life. Earliest memory is of my mother and myself being approached by a rapid angry skin head, who shouted racist abuse in my mothers face.

This "You've never faced discrimination, harassment or prejudice if you don't agree with me" angle feminists like to play can be irritating.



> Secondly, if you're taking dating advice from someone who can't fathom why an approach like that is discomforting, perhaps you should look for dating advice elsewhere.


Ad hominem.

I can understand why she would feel uncomfortable. But I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with what he did, taking into consideration the circumstances.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> I've been propositioned by a stranger in the middle of the night. I think she was a prostitute. She said "Want some company?". To be fair I was in Kings Cross at the time. I shook my head and walked away. I'm curious as to what would've happened if I said yes. I probably would have AIDS and minus $200.


lol I had the same experience in victoria.

"Do you want some business?"

(Keeping my hands firmly in my pockets and using my peripheral vision to look around.)

"No thank you." :ninja:


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> Many men do their absolute best to avoid being creepy in any way possible. Again, I find it sad. But that's the world we live in.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Master Wolf said:


> nice guys are just as rare as assholes are, I mean not that rare, but the norm is more of an exchange and sharing culture I think. What ya say?


I see what you are saying.

There are a lot of nice guys out there getting fucked over, or becoming bitter and thinking they have to become assholes. I'm just presenting a middle ground concept.

I read regular stories (I like to lurk on combat sport and weight lifting forums) of dudes being nice guys getting fucked over hardcore (often money and cheating stories), and then becoming assholes - and advising others to do the same.


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## AmieLynn (May 17, 2013)

If you want a one night stand...sure....being a jerk may work. But let me tell you something, as soon as that is over, don't expect them to stick around..unless they are needy. If you want a long term girlfriend/wife....you better drop the jerk thing and be a nice guy because ultimately, that's what girls want in the long run.


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## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

These categorizations are making me sick...this is too much work. Fuck it, I'll just go find a hooker.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

remMUS said:


> These categorizations are making me sick...this is too much work. Fuck it, I'll just go find a hooker.












Why beg for pssey when you can pay for it! 8D

If that was the only thing i'd want...then my right hand and porn site is cheaper / less of a problem.

Is sex really why people date? Makes no sense to me.


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

But I like nice guys! I am attached to one now!


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

AmieLynn said:


> If you want a one night stand...sure....being a jerk may work. But let me tell you something, as soon as that is over, don't expect them to stick around..unless they are needy. If you want a long term girlfriend/wife....you better drop the jerk thing and be a nice guy because ultimately, that's what girls want in the long run.


You didn't read the OP


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## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

FreeBeer said:


> Why beg for pssey when you can pay for it! 8D
> 
> If that was the only thing i'd want...then my right hand and porn site is cheaper / less of a problem.
> 
> Is sex really why people date? Makes no sense to me.


LOL thanks. In relation to your question about sex...what's the difference between a friendship and a relationship? Like it's the physical affection component (not necessarily outright boning). I mean, you can always have super rad conversations with your bros...heck, you won't even be judged for your looks while doing it.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

remMUS said:


> LOL thanks. In relation to your question about sex...what's the difference between a friendship and a relationship? Like it's the physical affection component (not necessarily outright boning). I mean, you can always have super rad conversations with your bros...heck, you won't even be judged for your looks while doing it.


Yes but I don't share my life as fully with the bros as I do with someone I'd consider my girlfriend. Maybe its just me but there is this merging mental component that a intimate relationship needs to have or its just friends with benefits, which is also awesome, but if its only sex, economics, marriage and reproduction...then why did I get married or date this woman in the first place? Who is she to me? Nobody... What does she want from me?That imo is boring and unsatisfying, hell it is a trap.

I'd rather get with my best friend who is a woman or with a woman that I can share my life with on a different level from the usual friends, then date someone for sex. Sex is fun with the right person imo and utterly boring/meaningless with a random woman who happens to be hot for example.

I'm not some kind of pussy starved animal who wants sex. I'm a fucking man with fucking needs!  real needs damn it! I prefer my partner in crime thx, me and her against the world looking out for each-other.


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## AmieLynn (May 17, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> You didn't read the OP


I didn't bother....people just need to be themselves and stop trying to be something in order to "impress" women. If she doesn't like you for who you are...do you really want her?


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## AmieLynn (May 17, 2013)

I mainly went off on a rant because I have seen many guys say "be a jerk" to get girls. I know that's not what the OP said but...still is a sore spot with me and kinda went off...more talking to the people of that mindset than the OP.


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## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

FreeBeer said:


> Yes but I don't share my life as fully with the bros as I do with someone I'd consider my girlfriend. Maybe its just me but there is this merging mental component that a intimate relationship needs to have or its just friends with benefits, which is also awesome, but if its only sex, economics, marriage and reproduction...then why did I get married or date this woman in the first place? Who is she to me? Nobody... What does she want from me?That imo is boring and unsatisfying, hell it is a trap.
> 
> I'd rather get with my best friend who is a woman or with a woman that I can share my life with on a different level from the usual friends, then date someone for sex. Sex is fun with the right person imo and utterly boring/meaningless with a random woman who happens to be hot for example.
> 
> I'm not some kind of pussy starved animal who wants sex. I'm a fucking man with fucking needs!  real needs damn it! I prefer my partner in crime thx, me and her against the world looking out for each-other.


I know where you are coming from, but all roads lead to pussy. It's just an indirect and more natural way of getting there. Hey, don't look down on others man (we are all animals when you think about it and people with sex addictions have deeper underlying problems)...there's a reason sexuality and intimacy go hand-in-hand.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

/ thread.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

AmieLynn said:


> If you want a one night stand...sure....being a jerk may work. But let me tell you something, as soon as that is over, don't expect them to stick around..unless they are needy. If you want a long term girlfriend/wife....you better drop the jerk thing and be a nice guy because ultimately, that's what girls want in the long run.


I know some guys interpret this as...

When women have been used, and fucked over by jerks - after ignoring, mistreating and friendzoning nice guys - they'll look for nice guys to lay out the red carpet for them in their late 20's and 30's.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Funny how we need to do stupid things in order to gain the confidence to stop needing to do stupid things, haha.


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## AmieLynn (May 17, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I know some guys interpret this as...
> 
> When women have been used, and fucked over by jerks - after ignoring, mistreating and friendzoning nice guys - they'll look for nice guys to lay out the red carpet for them in their late 20's and 30's.



It is indeed quite a shame that women keep running after jerks. But they get what's coming to them.

And they learn. Just unfortunate.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

remMUS said:


> I know where you are coming from, but all roads lead to pussy. It's just an indirect and more natural way of getting there. Hey, don't look down on others man (we are all animals when you think about it and people with sex addictions have deeper underlying problems)...there's a reason sexuality and intimacy go hand-in-hand.


I'm pretty sure pussy is not the main thing i'm interested in, its the other person. I do not have a very high or even a high sex drive, there are a lot of other things I enjoy more then "pussy". This stuff can not be generalized. Every person will have his or her unique perspective on the matter. Some want pussy/dick, some want money some want safety, some want adventure and so on.


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## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

FreeBeer said:


> I'm pretty sure pussy is not the main thing i'm interested in, its the other person. I do not have a very high or even a high sex drive, there are a lot of other things I enjoy more then "pussy". This stuff can not be generalized. Every person will have his or her unique perspective on the matter. Some want pussy/dick, some want money some want safety, some want adventure and so on.


I agree, but it has to be part of the package. It's not hard to have platonic relationships with girls. I mean, you can have all those things that you desire with a girl minus the physical affection if you are very good friends with them.


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## dagnytaggart (Jun 6, 2010)

Doesn't keeping score get exhausting?


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

I could spend time trying not to be a nice guy.

Or I could spend time building my natural self until its awesome.

Which one you think a girl will want?

A poser idiot, or an awesome natural?

This advice is a bandaid solution.


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## RetroVortex (Aug 14, 2012)

I don't need to go around trying to impress alot of women.
Just one will do me. The right one! XD
(I mean if you got the right one, then you don't need any more right? ;D)


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## Clon3Haz3 (Jun 7, 2013)

Depends on how far you are willing to take it with the good guy & bad guy thing. To much anything isn't good for you or other people.

I know a lot of sweet nice guys that lost their man card's along with their balls and i know a lot of bad guy's " assholes " are just assholes.

Been their done that. If you want to have a different women every night well nether are going to work unless you're a master at one or the other lol. Seriously women don't know what they want, and thats a fact, look at mel gibson's movie " what women want". 

Best advise i can give someone else is, know where you draw the line, be a man say fucking No.


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## The Shaktus (Apr 19, 2010)

IMO, being nice to women can be seen as being underhanded by some.

When I first got to college, I was pretty nice to folks in general. Some girls thought I was hitting on them (when I wasn't) and two girls thought I was trying to get into their pants from the jump.

As it was explained to me, being nice to a girl is seen as a passive-aggressive attempt to get a date. The "asshole/alpha male type can be seen as someone doesnt have that pretense about themselves. What you see is what you get; they are direct, are fiercely independent, and they normally give girls that "emotional high" you don't get from a nice guy. They may take you to the beach one day, show a girl the time of their lives and not not call them for a month. 

And while someone doing nice things for that reason isn't entitled to a date from that person they're doting on, most guys from the age of 5 are told by all of the women in their lives that 'if you want a girl, you have to be nice to them.' They don't know another way to go about it.

But arguing all of this is a moot point, IMO. If you want to attract girls, simply do you. Make your money, become successful (in w/e you define that to be), become well-traveled without the thought of "how will this get me the ladies?"

When you do you and stop worrying, people will gravitate towards you.

And all the 'being nice for its own sake' will have to be cut down. Do it enough, and people will start taking advantage of it.

I'm out.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

The Shaktus said:


> But arguing all of this is a moot point, IMO. If you want to attract girls, simply do you. Make your money, become successful (in w/e you define that to be), become well-traveled without the thought of "how will this get me the ladies?"
> 
> When you do you and stop worrying, people will gravitate towards you.
> 
> ...


It's more easily said than done, really. People don't admire intelligence any more.


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## xty (Jun 1, 2013)

The Shaktus said:


> But arguing all of this is a moot point, IMO. If you want to attract girls, simply do you. Make your money, become successful (in w/e you define that to be), become well-traveled without the thought of "how will this get me the ladies?"
> 
> When you do you and stop worrying, people will gravitate towards you.


Couldn't agree more. And not just for guys....for us girls too. I used to get sick of my parents telling me, "Just be yourself!".....but now that I'm an adult and fully cognizant of how hard many people try to be something they're not, I realize what good advice this was.


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

It's not about being nice or an asshole.

Just stand up for yourself, have respect for yourself and don't be a push-over.

Don't take their shit.

If they treat me right, then I'll be a nice guy.


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## LoveAshley (Mar 31, 2013)

Here's the thing, for me...I like a guy that can find a balance. 

I've been around guys who were too nice, agreeable, and clingy....it did not end well.
I've also been around guys who are too sure of themselves, cocky, dominant/domineering, and always in people's face about not taking their shit...it also did not end well. 

Guys seem to take the nice guys finish last line way too seriously and think that if you treat a lady like shit, it's somehow going to magically make her chase your approval...not so, unless she's mentally unstable, which in that case she's your future psycho ex you will be telling your future wife about.

Don't be desperate.
Don't be an ass.

If you follow that you should be fine.


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