# Are ENTP's the 'dumb' NTs?



## Coppertony

I've seen a few NT circle jerks about which type is the 'smartest' / 'most intelligent', "most intellectual', etc... and I'll usually see the INTPs and INTJs going at it, with a few suggestions for ENTJ. Conspicuously, little to no suggestions of ENTP. Why's that?


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## elixare

ENTPs have the greatest social skill out of all the NTs and therefore are more likely to get laid and therefore have less need to puff up their intelligence to compensate the lack of getting laid 

JUST KIDDING!!!

but it's kind of true tho....


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## nujabes

Yes, we are the dumbest.

Also, does anyone know about pen island? I was told it was a fun internet community


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## LawyersAdvocate

Wait, I don't understand the question.


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## MegaTuxRacer

Guys, who is the most smartest NTs?


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## blit

Meh, they're arguing over a stereotype. An ENTP can be "smarter" than other type. No reason to feel butt hurt.


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## nujabes

Muck Fe said:


> Meh, they're arguing over a stereotype. An ENTP can be "smarter" than other type. No reason to feel butt hurt.


wait... so am i dumb?

also wat is 'butt hurrt'


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## DarwinsBastard

Muck Fe said:


> Meh, they're arguing over a stereotype. An ENTP can be "smarter" than other type. No reason to feel butt hurt.



I feel so much better now, you have brightened my day. Nay, my week.


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## blit

gingertonic said:


> wait... so am i dumb?
> 
> also wat is 'butt hurrt'


You sure can be dumb. You just need to try hard, but not too hard. You might hurt yourself.


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## Flatlander

bcuz ENTP irrationals.


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## nujabes

Muck Fe said:


> You sure can be dumb. You just need to try hard, but not too hard. You might hurt yourself.


so like on a scale of 3 to 8... where should i fall?


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## Figure

For crying out loud, don't answer your own question with threads like these


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## blit

gingertonic said:


> so like on a scale of 3 to 8... where should i fall?



60%




You're failing.


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## blit

DarwinsBastard said:


> I feel so much better now, you have brightened my day. Nay, my week.


Your post brighten my screen.


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## MegaTuxRacer

Muck Fe said:


> 60%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're failing.


No, it's 6 inches.


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## nujabes

Muck Fe said:


> 60%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're failing.




i'm not very good at this...


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## bales33

This intp says the idea that you can even know which type is smarter for sure is a fallacy, but you're free to think what you wish... Regardless, I'm sure there is at least one person of every type that can make anyone of us look like an idiot..at least in regards to certain subjective things. 

You see intelligence in general is subjective. I mean if you were to take your intelligence in regards to survival skills and compare it to that of someone who has spent 20 years living in the wood's, do you think you would be the smart one? Then what would happen if you both compared your knowledge in regards to physics? (let's assume the guy in question wasn't a physicist before he become one of the forest people)


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## Kairos

bales33 said:


> This intp says the question is a fallacy, but your free to think what you wish... Regardless, I'm sure there is at least one person of every type that can make anyone of us look like an idiot at least in regards to certain subjective things.
> 
> You see intelligence in general is subjective. I mean if you were to compare your intelligence in regards to survival skills, do you think you would beat the guy who's spent 20 years living in the woods but lacks a knowledge of physics? Then what would happen if you both compared your knowledge in regards to psysics?


This. Don't judge a fish for its ability to climb a tree.


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## MegaTuxRacer

bales33 said:


> This intp says the question is a fallacy, but your free to think what you wish





bales33 said:


> your





bales33 said:


> your





bales33 said:


> your


_This INTP, eh?_


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## MegaTuxRacer

Kairos said:


> This. Don't judge a fish for its ability to climb a tree.


I thought it was "don't judge a book by its GDP".


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## bales33

Kairos said:


> This. Don't judge a fish for its ability to climb a tree.


I agree.... but to any who read his quote of my post, remember I hadn't had time to edit it yet.


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## Dark Romantic

Of course not.


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## nujabes

MegaTuxRacer said:


> I thought it was "don't judge a book by its GDP".


GDP is a fair measurement of cultural ability.


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## Kairos

MegaTuxRacer said:


> _This INTP, eh?_


Even if he made a mistake and it is funny to poke at. Have you forgotten that not everyone has English as his/her first language? And that writing correctly does not reflect how intelligent you can be, but merely your culture and upbringing? If you were to look at my posts you would have a blast.


Crap. I see I am taking the other side of the issue for sheer pleasure of arguing. Fuck all, we are the smartest! raaaaaawr!


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## bales33

MegaTuxRacer said:


> _This INTP, eh?_



Yea... "your". I stated my opinion and then stated that they were free to think what they wish in order to imply that I wasn't trying to give them an absolute truth. Maybe I messed up the order and/or the way it should be said but I don't think it matters that much. If you got what I said then the small details aren't important and if you didn't get what I said then the post it's self wasn't important.


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## bales33

Kairos said:


> Even if he made a mistake and it is funny to poke at. Have you forgotten that not everyone has English as his/her first language? And that writing correctly does not reflect how intelligent you can be, but merely your culture and upbringing? If you were to look at my posts you would have a blast.
> 
> 
> Crap. I see I am taking the other side of the issue for sheer pleasure of arguing. Fuck all, we are the smartest! raaaaaawr!


English is my first language, I just prefer not get caught up on insignificant details. I couldn't care less what he wastes his time on or if he find's fun in poking at my mistakes. But thanks for sticking up for me, that's always cool.


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## MegaTuxRacer

Kairos said:


> Even if he made a mistake and it is funny to poke at. Have you forgotten that not everyone has English as his/her first language? And that writing correctly does not reflect how intelligent you can be, but merely your culture and upbringing? If you were to look at my posts you would have a blast.
> 
> 
> Crap. I see I am taking the other side of the issue for sheer pleasure of arguing. Fuck all, we are the smartest! raaaaaawr!


Yes arguing is fun. One time I argued with a brick wall.


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## nujabes

bales33 said:


> *find's*


trolololololololololol


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## MegaTuxRacer

bales33 said:


> Yea... "your". I stated my opinion and then stated that they were free to think what they wish in order to imply that I wasn't trying to give them an absolute truth. Maybe I messed up the order and/or the way it should be said but I don't think it matters that much. If you got what I said then the small details aren't important and if you didn't get what I said then the post it's self wasn't important.


It totally changed the meaning of what you were saying.


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## nujabes

bales33 said:


> I could honestly care less what he wastes his time on or if he find's fun in poking at my mistakes


So care less!


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## Powder monkey

Of course, all extroverts are stupid. If you were a smart introvert you would be aware of this.



Sheesh.


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## bales33

MegaTuxRacer said:


> It totally changed the meaning of what you were saying.


No, it changed what you perceive the meaning to be... the meaning of what I was saying stays the same to me regardless of how it's said. I'll admit I worded it wrong, but to say it changed the true meaning behind what I said isn't true. But I appreciate the significance my mistake has on you.


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## bales33

gingertonic said:


> So care less!


I meant couldn't. That one I deserve even more then the first.


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## MegaTuxRacer

bales33 said:


> No, it changed what you perceive the meaning to be... the meaning of what I was saying stays the same to me regardless of how it's said. I'll admit I worded it wrong, but to say it changed the true meaning behind what I said isn't true. But I appreciate the significance my mistake has on you.


What is the true meaning of anything if not for our proclivities as humans to derive different interpretations of ambiguos data?


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## bales33

MegaTuxRacer said:


> What is the true meaning of anything if not for our proclivities as humans to derive different interpretations of ambiguos data?


The true meaning of anything can and will vary from person to person, but unlike many people, I don't care for the interpretation of others... that's why I regularly find myself misunderstood. But it doesn't change my interpretation of the statement nor does it change much of anything else. 

Maybe I would do better to state thing's the correct way, but whats the point? If its merely so other's can understand my train of thought then I'll pass. If its so other's will value my intelligence then once again I'll pass.... I figured everyone could get the point of my post, but that might just be a mistake on my part.


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## nujabes

bales33 said:


> The true meaning of anything can and will very from person to person, but unlike many people, I don't care for the interpretation of others... that's why I regularly find myself misunderstood. But it doesn't change my interpretation of the statement nor does it change much of anything else.
> 
> Maybe I would do better to state thing's the correct way, but whats the point? If its merely so other's can understand my train of thought then I'll pass. If its so other's will value my intelligence then once again I'll pass.... I figured everyone could get the point of my post, but that might just be a mistake on my part.


yea who gives a shit about grammatical rules? their just annoying and really dont give me any help


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## bales33

gingertonic said:


> yea who gives a shit about grammatical rules? their just annoying and really dont give me any help


If you expect me to get upset you'd do best to take your games somewhere else. But if all you want is a chance to be sarcastic then remain has you are.


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## Coppertony

I walk away for like an hour and just knew this was going to happen . . . 

God ENTPs this is why I love us .


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## MegaTuxRacer

gingertonic said:


> yea who gives a shit about grammatical rules? their just annoying and really dont give me any help


Don't forget grandma tickle rules!


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## bellisaurius

Coppertony said:


> I've seen a few NT circle jerks about which type is the 'smartest' / 'most intelligent', "most intellectual', etc... and I'll usually see the INTPs and INTJs going at it, with a few suggestions for ENTJ. Conspicuously, little to no suggestions of ENTP. Why's that?


Heh. Because INTPs and INTJs have even bigger egos than ENTPs since they have more downtime to enlarge them....


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## theorycraft

Uh I don't understand this thread everyone here is above average intelligence. If my dick is 8 inches (my irl size) and your dick is 8.02 (you wish) inches then yes your dick is technically bigger but who cares. ENTPs surpass INTP/INTJ in social interaction and likeability by far its not even fucking close. Look at the bigger picture its much better to be well rounded and well look at the chart all the mid types are ENxx. If you are looking at IQ only then no doubt INTP/INTJ. But if you look at IQ and EQ combined then its ENTP and ENTJ. No fucking point in trying to smarter when you already are up at the top .05% start balancing other parts of your personality. Start stacking that GIRTH cause after 7.5" nobody is impressed by length anymore. ENTPs got GIRTH.


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## Razor

theorycraft said:


> Uh I don't understand this thread everyone here is above average intelligence. If my dick is 8 inches (my irl size) and your dick is 8.02 (you wish) inches then yes your dick is technically bigger but who cares. ENTPs surpass INTP/INTJ in social interaction and likeability by far its not even fucking close. Look at the bigger picture its much better to be well rounded and well look at the chart all the mid types are ENxx. If you are looking at IQ only then no doubt INTP/INTJ. But if you look at IQ and EQ combined then its ENTP and ENTJ. No fucking point in trying to smarter when you already are up at the top .05% start balancing other parts of your personality. Start stacking that GIRTH cause after 7.5" nobody is impressed by length anymore. ENTPs got GIRTH.


ENTPs would be considered showers, not growers; they're smaller, but they flaunt themselves.


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## DiamondDays

theorycraft said:


> Uh I don't understand this thread everyone here is above average intelligence. If my dick is 8 inches (my irl size) and your dick is 8.02 (you wish) inches then yes your dick is technically bigger but who cares. ENTPs surpass INTP/INTJ in social interaction and likeability by far its not even fucking close. Look at the bigger picture its much better to be well rounded and well look at the chart all the mid types are ENxx. If you are looking at IQ only then no doubt INTP/INTJ. But if you look at IQ and EQ combined then its ENTP and ENTJ. No fucking point in trying to smarter when you already are up at the top .05% start balancing other parts of your personality. Start stacking that GIRTH cause after 7.5" nobody is impressed by length anymore. ENTPs got GIRTH.


You go on believing that if that makes you happy.


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## Belrose

Nope.

They're just leading everyone on.


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## MegaTuxRacer

theorycraft said:


> Uh I don't understand this thread everyone here is above average intelligence. If my dick is 8 inches (my irl size) and your dick is 8.02 (you wish) inches then yes your dick is technically bigger but who cares. ENTPs surpass INTP/INTJ in social interaction and likeability by far its not even fucking close. Look at the bigger picture its much better to be well rounded and well look at the chart all the mid types are ENxx. If you are looking at IQ only then no doubt INTP/INTJ. But if you look at IQ and EQ combined then its ENTP and ENTJ. No fucking point in trying to smarter when you already are up at the top .05% start balancing other parts of your personality. Start stacking that GIRTH cause after 7.5" nobody is impressed by length anymore. ENTPs got GIRTH.


So you're saying that you have a big dick?


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## theorycraft

nah im asian


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## Sonny

It's like video game characters, there is a finite number of points given to each player at the beginning of the game, ENTPs spent big on charisma and adventurousness for the doors it could open, INTs focused on raw skills to get ahead on their own, compared side by side the INT smells like a geekier geek and therefore presents an image of being more intellectual.

Also, many ENTPs are E7s, many INTs are E5s, one has the image of outgoing class clown, the other of intellectual observer. It's an image thang.

Getting laid is cool.


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## DiamondDays

The notion that extroverts would be less intelligent than introverts is simply ridiculous.


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## Extraverted Delusion

Thats of course if it is logic alone that governs intelligence.

We probably run more circles around logic simply out of inconsistency and an absolute disdain for structure, linearity, and rules. Even with proper use of Ti, Ne tends to leaps highways of thought into new topics. That being said, you're hardly going to get an ENTP that is confident enough with any answer they give you because we are a little too open with the possibility of multiple truths. We're deathly bored of specifics and one-two-three step instruction.

Layering information and applying it accordingly is not necessarily the forte of an Ne-dom, but if lateral thinking and out-of-the-box problem solving weights an IQ test heavier than routine application of logic, then you folks would be singing a different tune. And some of those questions really do.


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## SuburbanLurker

DiamondDays said:


> The notion that extroverts would be less intelligent than introverts is simply ridiculous.


Why is it ridiculous? It's been shown in studies. Just like N's are more likely to be above average in intelligence, so are introverts.


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## Entr0py

Sonny said:


> It's like video game characters, there is a finite number of points given to each player at the beginning of the game.


Wow dude, I don't know about other ENTPs, but if you believe life is like a video game than you are pretty damn dumb. There is definitely, using your analogy, a finite number of points, but don't delude yourself my friend, in believing that finite number is same for every person. 

For example, I am considered a genius by almost every person that knows me, I am also pretty damn good looking. I am generally a very likable person and I have no problems finding girls.

If you think everybody was so lucky as I am to get that many ''points'' you are seriously deluding yourself.


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## DiamondDays

SuburbanLurker said:


> Why is it ridiculous? It's been shown in studies. Just like N's are more likely to be above average in intelligence, so are introverts.


Well, i guess my statement was i little bit too colored by my own situation and didn't take facts into consideration. I was grumpy. It's just that most I's i interact with are so unassertive ( compared to me ) that they come across as not as smart. Then again, i am a fucking genius. :tongue:


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## Flatlander

DiamondDays said:


> Then again, i am a fucking genius. :tongue:


I hear women like that sort.


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## DiamondDays

Flatlander said:


> I hear women like that sort.


Oh, they love it. They just can't wait to whatever brilliant shit i come up whit. roud:


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## Extraverted Delusion

Entr0py said:


> Wow dude, I don't know about other ENTPs, but if you believe life is like a video game than you are pretty damn dumb. There is definitely, using your analogy, a finite number of points, but don't delude yourself my friend, in believing that finite number is same for every person.
> 
> For example, I am considered a genius by almost every person that knows me, I am also pretty damn good looking. I am generally a very likable person and I have no problems finding girls.
> 
> If you think everybody was so lucky as I am to get that many ''points'' you are seriously deluding yourself.


You know, that post was really getting interesting until the "I" shat all over your credibility.

iGenius, iDamnGoodLooking, iLikable, iPointsGetter.

Come on, leave the branding to the Ne. :tongue:


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## Sonny

Entr0py said:


> Wow dude, I don't know about other ENTPs, but if you believe life is like a video game than you are pretty damn dumb. There is definitely, using your analogy, a finite number of points, but don't delude yourself my friend, in believing that finite number is same for every person.
> 
> For example, I am considered a genius by almost every person that knows me, I am also pretty damn good looking. I am generally a very likable person and I have no problems finding girls.
> 
> If you think everybody was so lucky as I am to get that many ''points'' you are seriously deluding yourself.


I shouldn't have to explain that I was being facetious to a self-described genius :dry:


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## Entr0py

Sonny said:


> I shouldn't have to explain that I was being facetious to a self-described genius :dry:


What's facetious? Eh, whatever, having a 3some in an hour. Later guys.



Extraverted Delusion said:


> You know, that post was really getting interesting until the "I" shat all over your credibility.
> 
> iGenius, iDamnGoodLooking, iLikable, iPointsGetter.
> 
> Come on, leave the branding to the Ne. :tongue:


Umm? Sorry for not being politically correct? 
You know, fake modesty is disgusting. I am far away from a narcissist, but I recognize my strengths the same way I recognize my weaknesses. 

Whom would you rather that I had used in my example rather than me? You would probably liked more if I told about people that got less points rather than about people like me that got a lot?
Crippled guys and girls with an IQ of a domestic animal? Yeah, I guess than my credibility would be a lot better, don't you think?

Credibility derived from a persons humbleness? Get that Christianity away from me please.

P.S. On topic: I don't think ENTPs are 'dumb' NTs, every ENTP I've met was very intelligent.


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## Ngg

The perceived greater intelligence of Introverts is only due to the fact that they are more likely to engage in solitary, intellectual activities and less likely to be sidetracked by their extroversion - it is not a reflection of thinking 'capacity'. Also the other study pointed to ENFP and ENTP's as amongst the most gifted individuals. 
I just find the Introversion argument kinda weak in the case of NTs since by their very nature all NTs tend be less extroverted and more analytical (ENTP and ENTJ's included). ENTx are just more likely to apply the product of their thinking to the outside world.


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## War pigs

INTPs are absolutely the most intelligent type due to their lead Ti
ENTPs are much more clever, cunning, innovative, debators, quick... INTPs have much higher IQ, better with details, work with the most complicated theories... 
different stories
INTJs are also less "intelligent" than INTPs, they are kickass planners, mastermind type of thing
ENTJs are better leaders
it has nothing to do with IQ


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## DiamondDays

SychthIce said:


> INTPs are absolutely the most intelligent type due to their lead Ti
> ENTPs are much more clever, cunning, innovative, debators, quick... INTPs have much higher IQ, better with details, work with the most complicated theories...
> different stories
> INTJs are also less "intelligent" than INTPs, they are kickass planners, mastermind type of thing
> ENTJs are better leaders
> it has nothing to do with IQ


I was going to make a snide remark about generalisation, but then i remembered that that's what this whole forum is all about.


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## War pigs

DiamondDays said:


> I was going to make a snide remark about generalisation, but then i remembered that that's what this whole forum is all about.


Exactly, I should have mentioned "typically" thought


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## Razor

SychthIce said:


> INTPs are absolutely the most intelligent type due to their lead Ti
> ENTPs are much more clever, cunning, innovative, debators, quick... INTPs have much higher IQ, better with details, work with the most complicated theories...
> different stories
> INTJs are also less "intelligent" than INTPs, they are kickass planners, mastermind type of thing
> ENTJs are better leaders
> it has nothing to do with IQ



A smattering of commonly used keywords from MBTI descriptions, that's that strong Ne at work.

Almost as insightful as one of Google's automatic site indexing robots, well done!


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## DiamondDays

SychthIce said:


> Exactly, I should have mentioned "typically" thought


I don't think you got what i was i saying, at all.


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## Emerson

gingertonic said:


> Yes, we are the dumbest.
> 
> Also, does anyone know about pen island? I was told it was a fun internet community


Pen Island? That place sound fu- Oh wait! You funny funny guy...


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## Extraverted Delusion

Razor said:


> A smattering of commonly used keywords from MBTI descriptions, that's that strong Ne at work.
> 
> Almost as insightful as one of Google's automatic site indexing robots, well done!


LMAO, I love INTJs that say things like this.

You remind me of my INTJ character in my video:


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## Razor

Extraverted Delusion said:


> LMAO, I love INTJs that say things like this.
> 
> You remind me of my INTJ character in my video:



Interesting interpretation.


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## KateMarie999

ENTPs make me feel stupid. I know 3 of them and they're some of the most intelligent people I know. I do know one INTJ and I'm related to an INTP and they're both very smart but ENTPs intimidate me. I have to use my vast knowledge of emotional intelligence to impress them.


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## Magnificent Bastard

Define "dumb."


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## Bricolage

INTJ > INTP > ENTJ > ENTP. That's nonnegotiable. :crazy: But seriously. :dry:

The ranking is ordinal so please nix the hate mail. They could all be close...but they're not. roud:


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## Empty

The responses from each NT type is so fucking hilarious, because they've been stereotypically true. 

INTPs - Exhaustive, ridiculous TL;DR dissertations.

INTJs - Taking your answer far too seriously. Even if you're not, you come off that way.

ENTP - Lol wut? 

ENTJ - Too busy plotting world domination to give a shit about this thread, thus explaining the lack of their... presence.


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## Enfpleasantly

This thread is funny  ENTP's, you are wittyfulltastic.


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## PlacentaCake

Intelligence is becase myers briggs.


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## MegaTuxRacer

christicake said:


> View attachment 48356
> Intelligence is becase myers briggs.


Yup. *goes back to coloring Thomas the Tank Engine*


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## A Little Bit of Cheeze

No, they're the fun ones.


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## chaoticbrain

I think in some ways entp's and entj's are going to be less likely to be what's typically thought of as "intelligent". However meh I don't think we're "dumb". We're all intellgient in our own ways.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro

l can see why that's the rap they get.

l'm sure there are others here who have swung somewhere between ENTP and INTP or an I/E type in general and have experienced both sides of it.

l would say l definitely felt smartest and was taken more seriously by some people when l was in my more introverted phases. 

l was gathering a SHIT ton of information about my interests and had a better vocabulary that came from reading so much. People who are eve JUST quiet are sometimes assumed to be smarter too, l don't make the rules lol. 

At my most extroverted l loved my friends and all the experiences l was having but was definitely not focusing on my own interests as much or honing any skills. 

People didn't think l was dumb but socializing was my major concern, you can start losing knowledge pretty quickly and when you do you fall behind.

That all comes back o the central question about intelligence in this thread and everywhere else, l personally do think that those who take the time to develop their own skills and knowledge base are going to be seen as more intelligent and of course gain more skills in some areas in the process. 

More often than not, those are the introverted types. But it boils down to choice, not ability(outside of actual, raw cognitive ability, lol). 

l see both types starting out with about the same amount of ability and using it in different ways.


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## Bricolage

Each of the four NT types has intellectual strengths and weaknesses. For example, an INTJ might not be as skilled at interpreting meaning as an ENTP and an ENTJ certainly is more canny at making business decisions than the INTP. The INTP maybe makes the best philosophers because they ask the best questions. An ENTP is maybe the most ingenious but they can't stick with things long enough to have the INTJ impact. It seems like NTJs have the most pragmatic smarts - maybe the NTP have more of this Nietzschean dionysian thing going on. I guess it depends on what you're looking for. An INTP can think very deeply about a few ideas and an ENTP can generate many ideas on many topics. The names for the types are in many ways appropriate. An ENTJ is oftentimes known as the executive type because they collect and assort information extremely quickly and make good decisions based on that data. And, come on, INTPs spend enough time in their own heads to justify the thinker label. I guess I'm saying the intellectual nuances go beyond this binary of smart or not smart - each of the four NT types are going to be skilled or unskilled at certain tasks. I wouldn't readily put an INTP into an ENTJ slot or an INTJ into an ENTP job.


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## chaoticbrain

I've also experienced going back and forth between entp and intp. In fact I have no clue which one I am.


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## Flatlander

chaoticbrain said:


> I've also experienced going back and forth between entp and intp. In fact I have no clue which one I am.


Are you convinced you're one or the other? You could start with considering whether you are a Jungian introvert or extravert, then move on to determining which function (thinking, feeling, intuition, sensation) characterizes your worldview first and foremost: add the two and you have a dominant function, and the rest of the type is pretty much based on it.


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## Donkey D Kong

ENTPs are just the best at playing dumb.


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## MegaTuxRacer

Endless Sorcerer said:


> ENTPs are just the best at playing dumb.


Shhhhhhhh!


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## Aßbiscuits

Whatever the case I can confidently say they are the funniest, from what I've observed in my own life and on here.


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## SlowPoke68

We're not dumb. We tend to be disorganized and lazy, I noticed. 

Every team I've been on either had or desperately needed an ENTP member. We're the ones who say "why not?" and come up with solutions based on remote possibilities. Those sorts of talents are likely not uncovered by typical intelligence tests, and might not be quantifiable at all. Do they still count as intelligence? I would say so.

But then it gets annoying when we unconsciously transpose digits in phone numbers, stop doing some critical task as soon as it gets boring, go off with some mindfuck when clear, sequential thinking is required, get into ego fights with others, or start huffing our own farts. All of those things act against any impression of superior intellect.

And in regards to the graphs posted from the study: Coming from a family of teachers and social workers, I can tell you that the main indication of "gifted" in most school programs is social awkwardness and monomania rather than general intelligence. Let's see a graph showing "success in adult life" against the 16 types, and then we'll talk.


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## Bricolage

These notions of mediocre, genius, dumb, or intellectual seem related to society's take on intelligence. Since the scientific method, empiricism, and practical application (Te) is valued by most developed societies over philosophical and inductive analysis (Ti), the imprimatur is more likely to be bestowed upon INTJ (Te) than ENTP (Ti) types, all things being equal (i.e., provided Ti can't be exploited vis-a-vis Einstein-like genius). Also, there's always the possibility of juxtaposing a doltish INTJ with an extremely clever ENTP or something. Extrapolation becomes a problem when sample sizes are too massive, especially when the group categorizations are nonspecific, or too small, in which case you're plain fucked. :crazy:


----------



## Helios

And let the pissing contest/troll fest continue!


----------



## PyrLove

SlowPoke68 said:


> And in regards to the graphs posted from the study: Coming from a family of teachers and social workers, I can tell you that the main indication of "gifted" in most school programs is social awkwardness and monomania rather than general intelligence. Let's see a graph showing "success in adult life" against the 16 types, and then we'll talk.


My daughter's high school AP chemistry class is a prime example. The teacher gets so frustrated at them because he'll tell them that they _can_ work the problems in groups then he leaves the room. When he comes back they're all working individually. He huffs then starts assigning them to groups. They'll stare at the their new partners for a few moments then go right back to working individually. As she says, what does he expect from a bunch of nerds?


----------



## Bricolage

SlowPoke68 said:


> We're not dumb. We tend to be disorganized and lazy, I noticed.
> 
> Every team I've been on either had or desperately needed an ENTP member. We're the ones who say "why not?" and come up with solutions based on remote possibilities. Those sorts of talents are likely not uncovered by typical intelligence tests, and might not be quantifiable at all. Do they still count as intelligence? I would say so.
> 
> But then it gets annoying when we unconsciously transpose digits in phone numbers, stop doing some critical task as soon as it gets boring, go off with some mindfuck when clear, sequential thinking is required, get into ego fights with others, or start huffing our own farts. All of those things act against any impression of superior intellect.
> 
> And in regards to the graphs posted from the study: Coming from a family of teachers and social workers, I can tell you that the main indication of "gifted" in most school programs is social awkwardness and monomania rather than general intelligence. Let's see a graph showing *"success in adult life"* against the 16 types, *and then we'll talk.*


Define success and then I'll talk. :laughing:


----------



## SlowPoke68

unctuousbutler said:


> Define success and then I'll talk. :laughing:


My point, more or less.


----------



## Bricolage

SlowPoke68 said:


> My point, more or less.


That's all right. The republicans can't correctly define it either. roud:

Do you feel the term "success" is liable for misinterpretation when loosely defined?

Perhaps ENTPs are the daft NT type.


----------



## SlowPoke68

unctuousbutler said:


> That's all right. The republicans can't correctly define it either. roud:
> 
> Do you feel the term "success" is liable for misinterpretation when loosely defined?
> 
> Perhaps ENTPs are the daft NT type.


Though I don't think "success" can be objectively defined, I've known a lot of "gifted" and "intelligent" people who were/are lonely and miserable, some of whom have killed themselves. I'm fairly confident they aren't successful by most measures.

Feel free to disagree!


----------



## Bricolage

SlowPoke68 said:


> Though I don't think "success" can be objectively defined, I've known a lot of "gifted" and "intelligent" people who were/are lonely and miserable, some of whom have killed themselves. I'm fairly confident they aren't successful by most measures.
> 
> Feel free to disagree!


I happen to agree that success repels objective characterization. Well, that post presented something to disagree with - the other one was five ambiguous words. At any rate, I simply wanted some stab at your take on success, since you posited that success could be tracked with a graph. :tongue:


----------



## Kuthtuk

Coppertony said:


> I've seen a few NT circle jerks about which type is the 'smartest' / 'most intelligent', "most intellectual', etc... and I'll usually see the INTPs and INTJs going at it, with a few suggestions for ENTJ. Conspicuously, little to no suggestions of ENTP. Why's that?


Typical INTP Thread = "Experimental Word-Shifting Paradox Theory."
Typical INTJ Thread = "Don't you hate when people get surprised when your plans work?"
Typical ENTJ Thread = "Listen to me brag about something I succeeded in doing flawlessly"
Typica ENTP Thread = "Is there a correlation between breast size and MTBI?"

That's why.


----------



## SlowPoke68

Kuthtuk said:


> Typical INTP Thread = "Experimental Word-Shifting Paradox Theory."
> Typical INTJ Thread = "Don't you hate when people get surprised when your plans work?"
> Typical ENTJ Thread = "Listen to me brag about something I succeeded in doing flawlessly"
> Typica ENTP Thread = "Is there a correlation between breast size and MTBI?"
> 
> That's why.


And yeah, which one works better in picking up grad students in bars? See, that's the real issue here. . . .


----------



## Zdorobot

Kuthtuk said:


> Typical INTP Thread = "Experimental Word-Shifting Paradox Theory."
> Typical INTJ Thread = "Don't you hate when people get surprised when your plans work?"
> Typical ENTJ Thread = "Listen to me brag about something I succeeded in doing flawlessly"
> Typica ENTP Thread = "Is there a correlation between breast size and MTBI?"
> 
> That's why.


As an ENTP, the only word I recognized in all those sentences was "breast."


----------



## Flatlander

Zdorobot said:


> As an ENTP, the only word I recognized in all those sentences was "breast."


That's one way to stay abreast of the topic.


----------



## Zerosum

Was planning on refuting this by inserting a number of my favourite witticisms.. Was going to point out the classics on my desk in front of me that I am reading... The fact that I am learning the cello and Korean both of which I am doing quite well.. But then... Just out of the corner of my eye.. I see my obnoxious bright orange and blue "Partyboy hat" I won in thailand participating in a drinking contest... Then reminded of doing a nudie run through a crowded bar... Followed by riding a bike home early in the morning (clothed ) and not paying attention as i ride up the back of a car! 

You know what... I blame Alcohol for all!!


----------



## PyrLove

Zerosum said:


> Was planning on refuting this by inserting a number of my favourite witticisms.. Was going to point out the classics on my desk in front of me that I am reading... The fact that I am learning the cello and Korean both of which I am doing quite well.. But then... Just out of the corner of my eye.. I see my obnoxious bright orange and blue "Partyboy hat" I won in thailand participating in a drinking contest... Then reminded of doing a nudie run through a crowded bar... Followed by riding a bike home early in the morning (clothed ) and not paying attention as i ride up the back of a car!
> 
> You know what... I blame Alcohol for all!!


And this is why I like ENTPs. You guys have the brains I can relate to and still manage to _live_. :kitteh:


----------



## Playful Proxy

Kuthtuk said:


> Typical INTP Thread = "Experimental Word-Shifting Paradox Theory."
> Typical INTJ Thread = "Don't you hate when people get surprised when your plans work?"
> Typical ENTJ Thread = "Listen to me brag about something I succeeded in doing flawlessly"
> Typica ENTP Thread = "Is there a correlation between breast size and MTBI?"
> 
> That's why.


I think a small part of me will continue to laugh in my subconscious for a couple of decades because of that post...


----------



## Bricolage

Yeah I suppose the case could be made that ENTPs are the thick second cousins at family reunions. :laughing:


----------



## Empecinado

A few years ago I was constantly badgered by an INTJ to take a particular IQ test, eventually I lied and said I had a ridiculously low score and he believed me.


----------



## Flatlander

Empecinado said:


> A few years ago I was constantly badgered by an INTJ to take a particular IQ test, eventually I lied and said I had a ridiculously low score and he believed me.



LOL.

Surprised he didn't unravel your lie.


----------



## missushoney

Zerosum said:


> Was planning on refuting this by inserting a number of my favourite witticisms.. Was going to point out the classics on my desk in front of me that I am reading... The fact that I am learning the cello and Korean both of which I am doing quite well.. But then... Just out of the corner of my eye.. I see my obnoxious bright orange and blue "Partyboy hat" I won in thailand participating in a drinking contest... Then reminded of doing a nudie run through a crowded bar... Followed by riding a bike home early in the morning (clothed ) and not paying attention as i ride up the back of a car!
> 
> You know what... I blame Alcohol for all!!


You're learning Korean? Want to practice with me? ^_^ I'm getting rusty these days.


----------



## Zerosum

missushoney said:


> You're learning Korean? Want to practice with me? ^_^ I'm getting rusty these days.


lol I have only really just started.. My gf is Korean so I am kind of learning it for her benefit.. But always fun to learn it with other people . So you used to be fluent? Where did you originally learn it?


----------



## missushoney

Zerosum said:


> lol I have only really just started.. My gf is Korean so I am kind of learning it for her benefit.. But always fun to learn it with other people . So you used to be fluent? Where did you originally learn it?


Aw. That's sweet. I have to know it for my job and I have a test coming up to see if I've retained it. I was never fluent but was pretty advanced. Now I'm at sorta intermediate. -_-'


----------



## Le Beau Coeur

No, they are not.


----------



## Extraverted Delusion

Le Beau Coeur said:


> No, they are not.


____
x
____
y
____
z
____

Read between the lines.


----------



## Zerosum

missushoney said:


> Aw. That's sweet. I have to know it for my job and I have a test coming up to see if I've retained it. I was never fluent but was pretty advanced. Now I'm at sorta intermediate. -_-'


Really? What do you do? Does the business have Korean partners or is it a market thing? 

Its bloody hard to learn, but I like the Hengel because its kind of similar to the alphabet! I was starting to learn through a podcast, but was told that it contained far too many words you never use (for instance a word for great thanks). Still incredibly interesting though and great fun when you learn a new word.


----------



## Anna Moss

Well, on two out of three type/I.Q. studies I know of, ENTPs were ranked the #1 type. So I'd say you're probably not dumb. :tongue:


----------



## chimeric

It's that Ne, man. It doesn't like to take itself too seriously.


----------



## Bricolage

Anna Moss said:


> Well, on two out of three type/I.Q. studies I know of, ENTPs were ranked the #1 type. So I'd say you're probably not dumb. :tongue:


The issue concerns being the dumbest among the four NT types...not the dumbest among all sixteen types. From the studies I've seen, INTJs lead the way in terms of IQ among all types. I clearly understand that ENTPs are not objectively dumb but that's not the question.


----------



## Anna Moss

> The issue concerns being the dumbest among the four NT types...not the dumbest among all sixteen types. From the studies I've seen, INTJs lead the way in terms of IQ among all types. I clearly understand that ENTPs are not objectively dumb but that's not the question.


It depends on what studies you look at. /shrug There's quite a wide variation in where types fall in the ranking. In addition, the format of the I.Q. test itself introduces type-based confounding effects that allow certain types to outperform other types regardless of true intelligence level. Further, different types are better at different subsections of I.Q. tests.


----------



## Bricolage

Anna Moss said:


> It depends on what studies you look at. /shrug There's quite a wide variation in where types fall in the ranking. In addition, the format of the I.Q. test itself introduces type-based confounding effects that allow certain types to outperform other types regardless of true intelligence level. Further, different types are better at different subsections of I.Q. tests.


It doesn't at all depend. The previous post asserted that ENTPs aren't dumb, and utilized IQ tests as evidence bolstering that point. I said that s/he was missing the point...I feel you could be too.


----------



## Anna Moss

> It doesn't at all depend. The previous post asserted that ENTPs aren't dumb, and utilized IQ tests as evidence bolstering that point. I said that s/he was missing the point...I feel you could be too.


Sure it depends.  You can, or rather will, get ten different results if you sample ten different populations. Then there's the matter of the particular IQ test you use. I don't think that it's at all certain ENTPs are the least intelligent Rational type. Yeah, there are studies that show INTJs are the most intelligent type. But I've also seen studies showing that INTPs, ENFPs, and ENTPs are the most intelligent type. 
My point is mainly that it's not at all a foregone conclusion that ENTPs are the dumbest of the Rationals. I think people confuse "most fun-loving" with "dumbest."


----------



## Bricolage

Anna Moss said:


> Sure it depends.  You can, or rather will, get ten different results if you sample ten different populations. Then there's the matter of the particular IQ test you use. I don't think that it's at all certain ENTPs are the least intelligent Rational type. Yeah, there are studies that show INTJs are the most intelligent type. But I've also seen studies showing that INTPs, ENFPs, and ENTPs are the most intelligent type.
> My point is mainly that it's not at all a foregone conclusion that ENTPs are the dumbest of the Rationals. I think people confuse "most fun-loving" with "dumbest."


It really doesn't matter at all because the test thing is an ancillary component to the argument. I'm still convinced you're missing the point entirely but I'm starting not to care about disabusing you anymore. :tongue:


----------



## Anna Moss

> It really doesn't matter at all because the test thing is an ancillary component to the argument. I'm still convinced you're missing the point entirely but I'm starting not to care about disabusing you anymore. :tongue:


Well, you said _"The issue concerns being the dumbest among the four NT types..."_ Surely the studies I brought up and the difficulty in their interpretation must raise some doubts about the validity of this statement? And that would mean that my arguments _are _pertinent to the question of proving or disproving the point. (Frankly I don't know if I care either. But INTPs are the third most argumentative type, so...)


----------



## Bricolage

Anna Moss said:


> Well, you said _"The issue concerns being the dumbest among the four NT types..."_ Surely the studies I brought up and the difficulty in their interpretation must raise some doubts about the validity of this statement? And that would mean that my arguments _are _pertinent to the question of proving or disproving the point. (Frankly I don't know if I care either. But INTPs are the third most argumentative type, so...)


Doubts? Hardly. I was merely reframing the discussion.


----------



## Anna Moss

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.


----------



## missushoney

Zerosum said:


> Really? What do you do? Does the business have Korean partners or is it a market thing?
> 
> Its bloody hard to learn, but I like the Hengel because its kind of similar to the alphabet! I was starting to learn through a podcast, but was told that it contained far too many words you never use (for instance a word for great thanks). Still incredibly interesting though and great fun when you learn a new word.


haha. No it's not a business. I'm a linguist as a job. To me memorizing words and figuring out how to use the language is alright but when you get down to all of the grammar patterns, you end up being able to understand what people are saying but it's hard to know when to use which ending at which time so that you sound fluent. If you have the money I would order the Sogang University textbooks. They are really fun and colorful and come with CDs. I learned pretty well from them before and they focus on speaking the language like the locals.


----------



## Zerosum

missushoney said:


> haha. No it's not a business. I'm a linguist as a job. To me memorizing words and figuring out how to use the language is alright but when you get down to all of the grammar patterns, you end up being able to understand what people are saying but it's hard to know when to use which ending at which time so that you sound fluent. If you have the money I would order the Sogang University textbooks. They are really fun and colorful and come with CDs. I learned pretty well from them before and they focus on speaking the language like the locals.


Ahhh right! That sounds like a rather fascinating job and kind of makes a lot of sense why you would routinely get tested.. Can you speak any other languages?

Thanks for the advice, Ill look them up because definitely need something a little better than the podcast.


----------



## missushoney

I used to know Spanish from high school and college but I'm not too good at it anymore. My job has only taught me Korean so far. Yeah, I think having a structured course is best. You feel like you're just memorizing and doing the same thing over but in different ways at first, but you start to see how much you really know and have retained as time goes on. My problem is trying to maintain it. There aren't a lot of places to advance really. I'd be better going to an elementary Korean school or something. haha.


----------



## RaidenPrime

Oh, we are the smartest *innocent halo*...We just act silly and seem stupid to get people to get along with us. Being an intimidating smarty-pants gets one nowhere when it comes to being emotionally intelligent.


----------



## xxsnowflakexx

ENTPs easily misunderstood others by views of the community.


----------



## EllieBear

Maybe a bit of jealously at the fact ENTP's have social skills?


----------



## Bricolage

xxsnowflakexx said:


> ENTPs easily misunderstood others by views of the community.


Yeah, I hate those fuckers! :crazy:


----------



## tanstaafl28

I don't know about anyone else, but I want to hear what others think. Hard to do that if I act like I'm smarter than everyone.


----------



## MegaTuxRacer

tanstaafl28 said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I want to hear what others think. Hard to do that if I act like I'm smarter than everyone.


Having to act smart while being a dumbass seems to be the onus of most. Oh, the hubris of the dumb.


----------



## jdbullet23

Oh yeah, I think it's 'cause we get laid.

We have the most charm, the best social skills, the most ease in the spot light, and we're the funniest ... these qualities aren't associated with intelligence in standards these days, unfortunately. Just as smartness and brainpower isn't associated with attractiveness. But shit, we have the most charisma and swag, plus a hell of a lot of brainpower, and we're clever enough to put it all into an attractive, funny, charming package.


----------



## Bricolage

jdbullet23 said:


> Oh yeah, I think it's 'cause we get laid.
> 
> We have the most charm, the best social skills, the most ease in the spot light, and we're the funniest ... these qualities aren't associated with intelligence in standards these days, unfortunately. Just as smartness and brainpower isn't associated with attractiveness. But shit, we have the most charisma and swag, plus a hell of a lot of brainpower, *and we're clever enough to put it all into an attractive, funny, charming package.*


Modest too. :tongue:


----------



## myjazz

Dumb or not I always had crush's on ENTP's


----------



## JoanCrawford

Coppertony said:


> I've seen a few NT circle jerks about which type is the 'smartest' / 'most intelligent', "most intellectual', etc... and I'll usually see the INTPs and INTJs going at it, with a few suggestions for ENTJ. Conspicuously, little to no suggestions of ENTP. Why's that?


Perhaps your intellect on the outer world is fantastic, but your Extrovertedness may give you a lack of understanding for internalized concepts.


jdbullet23 said:


> Oh yeah, I think it's 'cause we get laid.
> 
> We have the most charm, the best social skills, the most ease in the spot light, and we're the funniest ... these qualities aren't associated with intelligence in standards these days, unfortunately. Just as smartness and brainpower isn't associated with attractiveness. But shit, we have the most charisma and swag, plus a hell of a lot of brainpower, and we're clever enough to put it all into an attractive, funny, charming package.


My oh my, someone thinks the world of themselves! XD


----------



## downsowf

jdbullet23 said:


> Oh yeah, I think it's 'cause we get laid.
> 
> We have the most charm, the best social skills, the most ease in the spot light, and we're the funniest ... these qualities aren't associated with intelligence in standards these days, unfortunately. Just as smartness and brainpower isn't associated with attractiveness. But shit, we have the most charisma and swag, plus a hell of a lot of brainpower, and we're clever enough to put it all into an attractive, funny, charming package.


Yeah…I'm pretty amazing. 



> Modest too. :tongue:


I'm the most modest person I know. Just an incredible person all around.


----------



## Buffy

gingertonic said:


> also wat is 'butt hurrt'


Oh, I think you know.


----------



## Bricolage

downsowf said:


> Yeah…I'm pretty amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the most modest person I know. Just an incredible person all around.


You're undoubtedly a legend in your own mind. :laughing:


----------



## jdbullet23

Ah, but what is an ENTP if not a legend? Even if it is in our own minds. We're still awesome in one way or another.


----------



## downsowf

jdbullet23 said:


> Ah, but what is an ENTP if not a legend? Even if it is in our own minds. We're still awesome in one way or another.


Most people just can't understand what it's like being on top of the mountain….ALL THE TIME


----------



## Bricolage

jdbullet23 said:


> Ah, but what is an ENTP if not a legend? Even if it is in our own minds. We're still awesome in one way or another.


Preaching to the choir. roud:


----------



## MegaTuxRacer

myjazz said:


> Dumb or not I always had crush's on ENTP's


Why would you crush such awesome people?


----------



## myjazz

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Why would you crush such awesome people?


Cause such awesomeness has to be controlled and kept to myself, so I chose to crush them with a bear hug so the awesomeness won't go away


----------



## GoldenApple

The ENTP is the least pretentious of the NTs. We are confident enough in our skin to make complete idiots of ourselves without worrying what others think.


----------



## RedDeath9

I want ENTP swag. It's one of my life goals.


----------



## DMack

It's cuz we're soo much smarter. Ne first rocks the world. They spend days, weeks, even years trying to figure something out and we Ne it in 30 seconds. Just because we don't write down the steps on how we got there dosn't mean we're not smarter than you.


----------



## Scelerat

INTJ the DC said:


> A lot of scores on tests are based on your correct prediction of what would be on the test. It's pretty hard to remember chapters of books so sometimes you study the wrong stuff while someone might have studied less but studied all the right material. Tests don't really reflect much other then your ability to regurgitate information and your ability to predict what would be tested.


A guy I met in a bar summed it up correctly, "My professor said that he couldn't give me a top mark because I didn't write "2+2 = 4" even though I clearly demonstrated that I would be able to write "2+2 = 4".


----------



## egodeath

Yeah, ENTP's are definitely the dumb NT's. All they do is have a lot of fun their whole life. You know, enjoying themselves and having lots of sex. Women sure do love them ENTP folk. They're so funny, confident, and socially aware that they don't even have to try to attract women. I always wondered what sex feels like, I may go pick up some books at the library about it. Bunch of unintelligent, neanderthal-esque, knuckle dragging, slightly less intelligent than a bonobo, stickin' a bamboo stick in a log to fish out ants for food, foul sub-humans they are if you ask me!


----------



## LostTheMarbles

I score well on the IQ tests and are pretty smart but I often undermine my intelligence by choosing to say the stupidest things I can just to see if I can get a laugh especially when I'm bored or the people round me can't keep up.


----------



## OrdinarinessIsAFWTD

IQ this, intelligence that. Leaning on that crutch causes onetrickponyness. The pressing issue is "Who is most likely to use their smarts to good effect?" 

On the subject of making doofuses out of ourselves, failure to immediately grasp why _that's a good thing..._ = loss of intuition points


----------



## Forever Jung

GoldenApple said:


> If Jesus Christ has been disproven, I missed the memo.
> 
> Perhaps Christians tend to become deists in debates because the typical argument goes against the idea of a Creator in the first place.


*”*If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.
If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in  ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time. - Bertram Russell


----------



## MissBlossom

There are no dumb NTs!


----------



## Deja Vu

Myrddin said:


> Hypothesis of two guys during their studies :
> 
> Guy 1 : Study all day, very focused, do 5 hours/day homework. Get a 95% final grade rate.
> Guy 2 : Do not care too much of teachers speach, do not even buy books, never do any homework. Get a 90% final grade rate.
> 
> Who is the smartest or the dumbest ?
> 
> IMO : None. It depends of what your definition of "beeing smart".





INTJ the DC said:


> What I've found is people bullshit about how much they study a lot.
> "Oh yeah I didn't even study and I got a 90%"
> Usually it's just a way to emphasize their intelligence despite any results to show for it.
> 
> This guy used to act like he never studied and then I'd always see him sweating trying to cram info into his head in a little room in the corner of the library before the test.
> 
> A lot of scores on tests are based on your correct prediction of what would be on the test. It's pretty hard to remember chapters of books so sometimes you study the wrong stuff while someone might have studied less but studied all the right material. Tests don't really reflect much other then your ability to regurgitate information and your ability to predict what would be tested.


somebody missed the point.


----------



## NT the DC

Deja Vu said:


> somebody missed the point.


Why do you assume a point was missed? 
Simply adding to the conversation, like you are now.


----------



## Deja Vu

id say simply dividing.


----------



## Old Intern

tanstaafl28 said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I want to hear what others think. Hard to do that if I act like I'm smarter than everyone.


Exactly, we don't all try to "flash" everyone with the "size" of our intelligence, but experience has shown us that people follow us. If I don't want to hear someone sucking up, might be a good idea to just let them talk.



Razor said:


> ENTPs would be considered showers, not growers; they're smaller, but they flaunt themselves.


However, when we do choose to make a point, we take into account that the right approach works better than a "big brain".


----------



## tanstaafl28

Old Intern said:


> Exactly, we don't all try to "flash" everyone with the "size" of our intelligence, but experience has shown us that people follow us. If I don't want to hear someone sucking up, might be a good idea to just let them talk.
> 
> However, when we do choose to make a point, we take into account that the right approach works better than a "big brain".


Perhaps part of what energizes us about others is discovering what passions drive them. I suspect that our interest in others plays a role in why others often see us as enthusiastic, charming, and somewhat overbearing. 

Enthusiasm can often be something of a "double-edged sword." For some, it's a welcome inspiration, for others, it's a source of indifference, or annoyance.

I could see how an ENTP, without conscious understanding of their talents, might be misunderstood. In my youth, I did sometimes brim with too much of a desire to share my knowledge. I mistakenly though it was the only gift I had to share. I so desperately wanted to find my niche in life that I allowed myself to be perceived as a "know-it-all." I had no idea that I had the potential to be more than just merely a source of knowledge, but of _inspiration_ as well. That is a far greater gift than I could have ever imagined.


----------



## lboogy85

ENFPs and ENTPs are more likely to be gifted than any other type so no ENTPs aren't the dumbest.


----------



## toffee

lboogy85 said:


> ENFPs and ENTPs are more likely to be gifted than any other type so no ENTPs aren't the dumbest.


As happy as that would make me do you have evidence to support that claim?


----------



## lboogy85

toffee said:


> As happy as that would make me do you have evidence to support that claim?


I don't know where the link is anymore. I got it from a chart on Facebook. I have seen that NPs seem to be the most gifted types however. I've read it goes ENFP, INTP then ENTP, or ENTP, INTP and ENFP. So perhaps I wasn't all the way right but you guys are still up there. A Synthesis of Research on Psychological Types of Gifted Adolescents « SENG


----------



## The Wanderering ______

I don't know about dumb. I think ENTP's are more likely to act "dumb" to get a reaction out of people. In all honesty though if I can get what I want by fighting an army of giant killer ants or by acting like a court jester to my super strict parents, I think I'll play the fool. Its more of playing the clown to get results, and SHIIIIIIIIIIT does it work. The only problem is people may like you but feel that they don't really know you. Which gets to be a big problem in intimate relations. I've learned to turn it down without deleting it especially since my parents are strict. I have to very much Coerce them into giving me what I want. 

I think this explains why many ENTPs are 7s and 3s.


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## Elistra

Coppertony said:


> I've seen a few NT circle jerks about which type is the 'smartest' / 'most intelligent', "most intellectual', etc... and I'll usually see the INTPs and INTJs going at it, with a few suggestions for ENTJ. Conspicuously, little to no suggestions of ENTP. Why's that?


I've never known a dumb ENTP. Not saying they don't exist somewhere, but I've never met one.

I have a hunch that this is what's happening on those threads...

*INTP -* I'm an introvert and don't feel like going out, so I'll surf the internet. ... HEY! Ok, I'm tired of the INTJs flaunting their J-selves in front of me and snarking about how disorganized I am! EINSTEIN was an INTP, and I'm not taking this anymore! It's WAR!

*INTJ -* I just got into a blazing row with my friend/mate and they're not talking to me, so I'll pick on some INTPs instead! <commence critical ranting>

*ENTP -* <too busy trolling elsewhere, playing pranks on people, or building an Apocalypse Weapon to participate>

*ENTJ - *<too busy drawing up organizational charts, putting the finishing touches on a 10 year plan, or writing a check to the ENTP for the aforementioned Apocalypse Weapon to participate>

:wink:


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## Jetsune Lobos

Deja Vu said:


> id say simply dividing.


Bro you don't know _what _the fuck you're trying to step to. I suggest you go take a nap and cool off before I make you take one.


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## azdahak

I'm an academic surrounded by smart and educated NTs. Here's my perspective. 

i would say xNTJs can and do accomplish more with less smarts, because they're simply better organized and not as distractable. They're great at nerding through technical details, and this is what most science is...dotting i's and crossing t's. 

the xNTPs are usually messes incapable of completing projects in a timely way because of perfectionism/procrastination. They get easily out-published by xNTJs by a high rate. However, they're usually the ones who have brilliant insights into new research and able to understand things quickly. So they often seem to accomplish less even though they have "more" smarts. Genius level xNTP get to bypass a lot of the bullshit, because their ideas are so powerful or wideranging. But those are 1:1000000.


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## Pete The Lich

feels appropriate 28 pages in


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## Pogona Vitticeps

Based on studies with the five factor model openness is the most important factor in IQ, if you are going to base things on IQ alone:ScienceDirect.com - Personality and Individual Differences - The five factor model of personality and intelligence: A twin study on the relationship between the two constructs
Mbti have correlations to the five factor model: Global 5/Big 5 to Jung/MBTI/Kiersey correlations
Personally I see intelligence as something contextual and IQ is biased in good test takers favor so you can miss some good talents because of that, not to mention it makes thinking just work one way while several different ways could be a smart thing. To use an anecdotal example, I suck at practical/social problems but I have no problems learning about theories and certain facts. But my ASD/HFA/Aspergers syndrome might have had an impact on that.


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## The Exception

I don't think ENTPs are any dumber than other NTs. They could look dumber because they would be the most prone to do things impulsively without thinking of the consequences.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro

The pattern l see with some ENTPs is starting out more like the "typical" NT's early in life. Whether they be good students, or not, there is more of an interest in learning and seeking information and often some major dorkiness.

That never disappeared for me, but it's not as obvious to other people as it might have been years ago. We might be more likely to get sidetracked for various reasons, some people might say it's because we're the dumb NT's in the first place.

l will say, as an adult l've had ''typical'' NT friends who didn't think l was like them at first. Which is fine with me, what l think is amusing is that they don't realize that l already know that.

l can very easily tell when nerds don't think l'm smart as they are, if it offended me l'd tell them to fuck off, but instead l usually choose to make friends with them and pretend to be surprised later when they "confess" their initial thoughts to me

One fun social experiment is to tone down your optimism and see how the same bullshit you'd be spewing any other time is taken more seriously by types who appeal to the widespread and widely annoying depression-IQ theory of intelligence.

The differences in IQ are also there, though it's better to compare the IQs of 2 ENTPs to get an accurate read of intelligence that an ENTP and INTJ IMO. 

Regardless, we often become ingrained with the maistream to an extent that we have "less than intelligent" interests ad may reflect a lot of the people we spend time with, l see ENTPs who could easily appear to be dumb and it's not uncommon.


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## Elistra

It might partially be the bias that many NTs (especially younger ones) seem to have towards emotional people in general, and expressions of the extroverted Feeling function in particular?


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## The Wanderering ______

ENTPs are the most SPish NT. Because of that I don't think its so much that ENTPs are dumb such that more or less they are more action-oriented or more attuned to the environment than the other NTs. I mean think about it ENTPs are dominant extroverted perceivers so it would make sense that most of their attention is on the outside world.


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## azdahak

The Wanderering ______ said:


> ENTPs are the most SPish NT. Because of that I don't think its so much that ENTPs are dumb such that more or less they are more action-oriented or more attuned to the environment than the other NTs. I mean think about it ENTPs are dominant extroverted perceivers so it would make sense that most of their attention is on the outside world.



I understand what you're saying, but I don't really agree with it., mainly because out judging function is Ti.

I don't think ENTPs are any more attuned to the environment than say INTPs -- I don't know how many times I've missed an exit while driving, or forgot something was on the stove, etc.. because I was lost in some Ne/Ti think-orgy.

We just use the environment and other people to spin-up our Ne intuition, but it doesn't mean we're paying attention to it. We get lost in the thoughts that the environment induces in us, because after all we're inward Ti thinkers. We're just as much the absent-minded professor as INTPs. I would also argue we're not very action oriented, because we tend to re-act instead of act. 
ENTP -- Procrastination specialist:bored:


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## The Wanderering ______

azdahak said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I don't really agree with it., mainly because out judging function is Ti.
> 
> I don't think ENTPs are any more attuned to the environment than say INTPs -- I don't know how many times I've missed an exit while driving, or forgot something was on the stove, etc.. because I was lost in some Ne/Ti think-orgy.
> 
> We just use the environment and other people to spin-up our Ne intuition, but it doesn't mean we're paying attention to it. We get lost in the thoughts that the environment induces in us, because after all we're inward Ti thinkers. We're just as much the absent-minded professor as INTPs. I would also argue we're not very action oriented, because we tend to re-act instead of act.
> ENTP -- Procrastination specialist:bored:


Wait what. I''m pretty action-oriented. Hell, i"m better in a hands-on role than a observer role. Sometimes I just need to jump over the shyness in order to go from observer to hands-on. Anywho, what makes you think ENTPs don't act instead of react. I mean considering that Ne is a perception function and its extroverted, I could see ENTPs acting instead of reacting all the time. Personally I don't have any problem acting first like talking to a girl who intrigues me, but for the most part that is just learned behaviour from the fact that has been engraved in my memory that states that "If I don't make the first move she will never be mine". 

Anyway I don't understand what you mean by get lost in thought because we have Ti. We have Ti second not first. ESTPs also have Ti second and do not get lost in thought. ISTPs have Ti first and sometimes really do not get lost in thought. I mean Ti is analysis which could get you lost in thought, but Ti for ENTPs is nowhere near as deep as it is for INTPs. 

Also I too have forgotten things that are going on in the environment. Its not so much that I'm stuck in thought, so much as I have something more exciting on my mind or I'm so into the moment that I don't pay attention to what it was I was doing.


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## azdahak

The Wanderering ______ said:


> Wait what. I''m pretty action-oriented. Hell, i"m better in a hands-on role than a observer role. Sometimes I just need to jump over the shyness in order to go from observer to hands-on. Anywho, what makes you think ENTPs don't act instead of react. I mean considering that Ne is a perception function and its extroverted, I could see ENTPs acting instead of reacting all the time. Personally I don't have any problem acting first like talking to a girl who intrigues me, but for the most part that is just learned behaviour from the fact that has been engraved in my memory that states that "If I don't make the first move she will never be mine".
> 
> Anyway I don't understand what you mean by get lost in thought because we have Ti. We have Ti second not first. ESTPs also have Ti second and do not get lost in thought. ISTPs have Ti first and sometimes really do not get lost in thought. I mean Ti is analysis which could get you lost in thought, but Ti for ENTPs is nowhere near as deep as it is for INTPs.
> 
> Also I too have forgotten things that are going on in the environment. Its not so much that I'm stuck in thought, so much as I have something more exciting on my mind or I'm so into the moment that I don't pay attention to what it was I was doing.


To me, it sounds like you're describing my ESTP friend. He never thinks out loud...he'll just suddenly announce what he's going to do (or just do it). I think Se/Ti is more action oriented because its a concrete thinking process and therefore much faster. Ne/Ti dwells on probabilities and abstractions and it requires for mental energy. 

What makes you think Ti is nowhere near as strong for ENTP as INTP. To me it's about function order, not strength. 

As an xNTP for an idea:

An ENTP will say "I got an idea, gimme a day" and come back in a day with it all worked out.
An INTP will say "Let me get back to you" disappear for a day and come back with a worked out idea. 

And ESTP will say "I'm on it" and then go fuck your secretary in the broom closet.


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## The Wanderering ______

azdahak said:


> To me, it sounds like you're describing my ESTP friend. He never thinks out loud...he'll just suddenly announce what he's going to do (or just do it). I think Se/Ti is more action oriented because its a concrete thinking process and therefore much faster. Ne/Ti dwells on probabilities and abstractions and it requires for mental energy.
> 
> What makes you think Ti is nowhere near as strong for ENTP as INTP. To me it's about function order, not strength.
> 
> As an xNTP for an idea:
> 
> An ENTP will say "I got an idea, gimme a day" and come back in a day with it all worked out.
> An INTP will say "Let me get back to you" disappear for a day and come back with a worked out idea.
> 
> And ESTP will say "I'm on it" and then go fuck your secretary in the broom closet.


Wait so you think I'm an ESTP. WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK THAT!!!! I couldn't be an ESTP if I wanted to. Too unco-ordinated, too nerdy, and too withdrawn. I'll stick with my ENTPness thank you. I could be an ISTP thought COMPLETE AND TOTAL BADASSNESSSSS.

Honestly though, do I really sound like your ESTP friend :blushed: I don't think I'm as cool as people think I am. I just have a witty sort of humor and don't take anything really seriously. Plus I like talking about myself ALOT if you haven't noticed. 

But I don't know I think out loud a lot. And like I said I can be the observer or the Expediter. So I feel NTP ish


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## azdahak

The Wanderering ______ said:


> Wait so you think I'm an ESTP. WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK THAT!!!! I couldn't be an ESTP if I wanted to. Too unco-ordinated, too nerdy, and too withdrawn. I'll stick with my ENTPness thank you. I could be an ISTP thought COMPLETE AND TOTAL BADASSNESSSSS.
> 
> Honestly though, do I really sound like your ESTP friend :blushed: I don't think I'm as cool as people think I am. I just have a witty sort of humor and don't take anything really seriously. Plus I like talking about myself ALOT if you haven't noticed.
> 
> But I don't know I think out loud a lot. And like I said I can be the observer or the Expediter. So I feel NTP ish


Yes. Get off our forums. :shocked:


But seriously, I can't tell what you are. That's for you to decide. As I said, I have an ESTP friend so I will compare. We share a lot of characteristics…we can both be zany and off the wall, spontaneous and witty. We both have very objective perspectives and are fairly perceptive about other people's states of being. We both think emotional responses are childish and irrational. 

But his antics are sensor antics. He's the guy making the zany face in the picture, saying something blatantly offensive to a woman to get her all false-angry and sexually interested, or switching your Vitamin Water with his urine.

If he gets interested in something (like how to get a certain item in a video game), he'll spend a lot of time to research it and figure out the best way to get it, and he usually comes up with good ideas. 

But, it pretty much stops at that level.


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## The Wanderering ______

azdahak said:


> Yes. Get off our forums. :shocked:
> 
> 
> But seriously, I can't tell what you are. That's for you to decide. As I said, I have an ESTP friend so I will compare. We share a lot of characteristics…we can both be zany and off the wall, spontaneous and witty. We both have very objective perspectives and are fairly perceptive about other people's states of being. We both think emotional responses are childish and irrational.
> 
> But his antics are sensor antics. He's the guy making the zany face in the picture, saying something blatantly offensive to a woman to get her all false-angry and sexually interested, or switching your Vitamin Water with his urine.
> 
> If he gets interested in something (like how to get a certain item in a video game), he'll spend a lot of time to research it and figure out the best way to get it, and he usually comes up with good ideas.
> 
> But, it pretty much stops at that level.


okay so what about you?


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## azdahak

My antics and eccentricities are usually intellectual.

So I'll troll people here or on Facebook by toying with the words or meaning of their posts.
(my ESTP doesn't do that -- he just posts pictures of himself doing jello-shots off some girl's ass at a bar)

I'll spend an hour (or more) standing on a street corner having an intellectual debate with a stranger over religion (or whatever). I've done that many, many times. 

I'll rearrange the letters on a sign board to make it spell out something bizarre, or offensive, or best…ironic.

I mercilessly tease my niece in front of her siblings without getting her angry. Then, when her brother tells me how funny I am, I do the same thing to him.

I'll spend an hour or two researching some topic that got casually mentioned in a conversation, because I can't stand not knowing about it.


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## Fern

Who are the mean NF's?


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## paperbrain

No. I think ENTP's are quite intelligent and extremely curious. The drawback I see is they are messy and they like to live messy lives or at least that's been my experience. They will do anything to put their little experiments out there no matter what the carnage whether it is professional or personal. They are not as methodical as INTJ's or INTP's or as ruthlessly driven to control everybody else like ENTJ's. The world is their laboratory and they'll leave crap and utter destruction out everywhere as long as it allows their experiments to be put into action. At least that's been my experience with them.


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## azdahak

paperbrain said:


> No. I think ENTP's are quite intelligent and extremely curious. The drawback I see is they are messy and they like to live messy lives or at least that's been my experience. They will do anything to put their little experiments out there no matter what the carnage whether it is professional or personal. They are not as methodical as INTJ's or INTP's or as ruthlessly driven to control everybody else like ENTJ's. The world is their laboratory and they'll leave crap and utter destruction out everywhere as long as it allows their experiments to be put into action. At least that's been my experience with them.


utter destruction takes too much effort....


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## azdahak

Fern said:


> Who are the mean NF's?


all of them....if you piss them off.


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## Fern

azdahak said:


> all of them....if you piss them off.


*shuders* True 'dat.

So, are you insinuating that *all *NT's can become irrational under the proper set of circumstances?


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## azdahak

Fern said:


> *shuders* True 'dat.
> 
> .So, are you insinuating that *all *NT's can become irrational under the proper set of circumstances?


Er...i don't think i was insinuating anything, but

sure...look at the INTJ stubborn logic temper tantrum, or the ENTP "I know I'm shooting myself in the foot....but" justifications for not getting shit done. No one is immune to being an idiot at times.


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## Fern

azdahak said:


> Er...i don't think i was insinuating anything, but
> 
> sure...look at the INTJ stubborn logic temper tantrum, or the ENTP "I know I'm shooting myself in the foot....but" justifications for not getting shit done. No one is immune to being an idiot at times.


I didn't mean to seem accusatory. And I think you're right. Our quirks come with our individual defense mechanisms, immature as they might be.

We're _*all *_idiots


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## Bricolage

I would not characterize most NTs that I have come across as dumb. Beyond that, it seems like dick measuring.


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## ModernVisage

I would slap every one for endorsing a thread that carries synthetic validity... but the inconvenience of doing so would make me late for work.


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## SPtheGhost

childofprodigy said:


> ENTPs have the greatest social skill out of all the NTs and therefore are more likely to get laid and therefore have less need to puff up their intelligence to compensate the lack of getting laid
> 
> JUST KIDDING!!!
> 
> but it's kind of true tho....


id argue that entjs have the better social skills


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## Bricolage

yous b the judg of weather i'm dum. brb lol.


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## Archetype

This thread is hilarious LOL


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