# Enneagram: Typing, Tri-Theory, and Stereotypes.



## Scruffy

The Enneagram on PerC, is only now gaining some popularity. Yet, most people have a very small grasp of the theory (hell man, look at the type me threads). People are typing based mostly on descriptions, and even worse, *people are using tests as grounds for a type*.

_"I'm a unique snowflake, my process walks circles around your banana."_

- The mis-typings here are far stretching in terms of people, yet they stay to the same types: 4, 5, & 8. As a loose model of type-density per population:* types 8, 5, & 4 are the rarest Enneagram types*. If you are going around as one of these, I would heavily recommend re-assessing your type. To go around as a mis-type (no matter how cool you think it is) will inhibit yourself (in the eyes of the Enneagram). To focus on the unnatural in your personality, you will cause more anxiety. 

- Types relating to the 3-6-9 group, generally make up* just over half* of the population. In second place, we have the 6-2-1 groupings. Most people, by far, will fit into these types. You are probably one of them (but I'm a snowflake!). No.

- The Enneagram deals with your motivations, actions are only secondary to motivations. No enneagram type will "lower" yourself, it's a fantastic starting point to truly look at yourself.

*Common Stereotypes*: 

(I will give them some forgiveness for the mis-types, as good information of the Enneagram is lacking terribly. Most of the crap you see on it, is a mass of boolshit.)

Type 3: People see them as valley-girls, athletes, "superstars". A superficial, unintelligent mess of 1upmanship. It's far more complicated than that, don't limit your thought.

Type 4: Probably the most annoying mis-type I see, if you are into Art, Have Feelings, and have problems with people, you get thrown into the 4 boat (it makes me go "fuu"). 4's are an incredibly intense type, and incredibly vain. They romanticize the type, because it's what we do, they are "tragic". People use the type as a crutch for their problems, but you're limping on the wrong leg.

Type 5: Another grand mis-type, if you're intelligent and cannot shower, you are a 5. If you have a thought, or are considered somewhat logical, 5. Again, wrong stereotypes. Never assume because you are an INT/F that you are a 5, or a 4. 5's are a heavily detached type, and they have a strong power desire (oh wow, who wants power!?).

Type 6: Ugh, the type most people are, but nobody wants to be. They are so mis-represented by descriptions. They are seen as anxiety-ridden, sad sacks, who cannot function properly. 6's are a truly powerful Enneagram type, their thought covers all bases, and they keep people well. Being a 6 is a good thing, do not for a second, think that they are a weak one.

Type 7: People see em' as spastic, fun-loving, carnal embracing, caffine machines. They have a branching thought, (Think Ne), it's quick and expansive. They are the Jack-Of-All-Trades, the crutch of the 7 is escapism, they run inside their heads when something gets to be too much.

And, Type 8: Another gross exaggeration of a type, people assume if you "take no crap" "make descions" that they are an 8. Most of the behaviors associated to be "8"s are actually 6ish, and 3ish in nature. An 8 is a rough type, afraid of vulnerability, so they push. It's a lonely type, and you are probably a 6.

Final line on typing and stereotypes: (You are probably a 6, 2, 3, or 9, it's not a bad thing.)


*Tri-Type Theory*:

Its a theory that takes a type from all 3 centers (Image, Head, and Gut/Presence) and put's them together to draw a clearer picture of a person. (it's still a personality theory, it's not you in a box).

Take ONE, of each.

Image types: 2, 3, and 4.
Head types: 5, 6, and 7.
Gut/Presence types: 8, 9, and 1.

You still have a core type, and it's your strongest, but how you deal with certain things can be associated with your tri points.*Remember, you cannot have a tri-fix point in the same group as your others. A [4]-[3]-6, [5]-[6]-8, [8]-[9]-2 are not possible in tri theory.* <- I put brackets over the repeaters.

Reminder: A shared wing with type is possible. I see a lot of people wondering, if 4w5, and 5w4 are possible points in a tri type. They are totally possible, along with 7w8, with 8w7. (also 1w2, and 2w1). In a sense, they would show one as a little more consistent. 

(Be wary, a 4w5 with a 5w4 fix, is a very, very, weird and uncommon type. You are probably not one)


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## nikkii

I love your P.O.V


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## IheartFootball10

im an 8. soo just how rare are they? being a female 8 is rough. and it is lonley type, maybe for the pure fact i equate vulnerability with weakness. and god forbid i show any sign of weakness to anyone and lose conrtol. therefore making it hard for almost anyone (espeically romantically) to knock down the walls and let them in. its easier to push someone away. which ive realized i do when a relationship tends to get more serious. the older i get the more ive recognized and been aware of these things and ive begun working on them. though, there are days it feels like a never ending battle.


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## Scruffy

Pretty damn rare.

Best I've seen for rarity of types:


> 6-9-2-1-3-7-8-5-4


 (most common to least)


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## Vaka

The ones for types 4 and 5 made me laugh. Thank you :crazy:


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## agokcen

Scruffy said:


> Best I've seen for rarity of types: (most common to least)
> 
> 6-9-2-1-3-7-8-5-4


Where'd you get this list?

Seems about right, but...hmmm. Somehow I feel like Sevens are more common than Threes. I think I've been hanging around the ENTP forum too much....


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## Aßbiscuits

I be a lonely bitch. I don't even have a wing. I'm like Nemo.


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## Nobleheart

Scruffy said:


> *Tri-Type Theory*:
> 
> Its a theory that takes a type from all 3 centers (Image, Head, and Gut/Presence) and put's them together to draw a clearer picture of a person. (it's still a personality theory, it's not you in a box).
> 
> Take ONE, of each.
> 
> Image types: 2, 3, and 4.
> Head types: 5, 6, and 7.
> Gut/Presence types: 8, 9, and 1.
> 
> You still have a core type, and it's your strongest, but how you deal with certain things can be associated with your tri points.*Remember, you cannot have a tri-fix point in the same group as your others. A [4]-[3]-6, [5]-[6]-8, [8]-[9]-2 are not possible in tri theory.* <- I put brackets over the repeaters.


This contradicts the Enneagram model for type 4 and type 5. According to the model 4's connect to 2 and 1, while 5's connect to 7 and 8. The model implies that 4's have a double dose of Heart (Image) and 5's have a double dose of Head, and this seems to be more correct from what I've read about the types than not.

View attachment 1180


I appreciate this theory as a very logical approach to individual typing meant to include at least one element of each group (Head, Gut, Heart). But, if the base theory can include 2 types within the same group (as seen for 4's and 5's), then why can't that also be true if we allow for individual unique triads - especially if there is a full step between types (for example, 8 and 1, 7 and 5, 2 and 4)?

It seems highly possible that some people sincerely prefer two of their groups over the other. This would explain a lot of 'imbalance' in people. If individuals are not bound to one of each group then I'm an 8w9, 2w1, 4w5. The only leaning toward the Head group I have is my 5 wing. I lean heavily on the Gut and Heart groups, while the Head group is clearly my weakest source of motivation. However, this is pretty consistent with type 8's 'typical' ties to 2 and 5, as well as 2's ties to 8 and 4, so it's not too far outside of the box.

View attachment 1181


To be concise, I like the more open and individual approach to this, but I think it is a mistake to assume that everyone has a leaning into all three groups because some of us need to be aware of our lack of motivation in a group if we are 'unbalanced'. Ennegram is about self awareness, and to try to force one's self into an artificial mold would be counter to that cause.


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## Scruffy

Tri-Type theory leads to your dealings with each center (what attitude you take for each center), all are circled around your core type. It is not a mix of types.

Head deals with anxiety, and fear.

Gut deals with anger.

Image/Heart deals with shame.

To dismiss a center disconnects you from some pretty basic emotions, you have no concept of anxiety or fear? You are not "tied" to the head group by a wing. A wing is nothing more than a focus of the type.

Using a blender on the Enneagram only makes for a shitty milkshake.


Self-awareness: oh how I want to be an unboxed fairy. Enneagram is a system, not a warm hug. The specifications can be improved, or changed; but not destroyed.

(I'm an 8w8 8w8 8w8)


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## Nobleheart

Scruffy said:


> To dismiss a center disconnects you from some pretty basic emotions, you have no concept of anxiety or fear?


Honestly, I think you're taking the Enneagram into a simplification that it can't really fit into when you presume that Enneagram types are a source of basic emotions, or that any of these types can fit neatly into a box. 

Enneagram types are nothing more than the logical manifestation of basic motivations. If someone's basic motivation is for success, they will adapt mechanisms to support this motivation, often the same mechanisms, good, bad, or indifferent... and therefore become a Type 3. If you don't understand that Enneagram is based on inherent motivations, you need to go back to basics. How a person adapts to those motivations is what creates the possibility of a wing or not. Most people will adapt in a similar fashion - the balanced type. Some people will develop more toward one of the other wing directions in adapting to their primary motivation. 

Enneagram type is based on an individual's primary motivation, be it a desire for success, power, love, rightness, fun, loyalty, etc. The only way that additional influences can be taken into account is if we consider secondary and tertiary motivations. These motivations needn't fit neatly into a logical model, as motivations are often illogical. Ennegram is nothing more than a model of motivations and how people typically adapt to their motivations. Motivations are frequently instilled in us at an early age by external factors and filtered by our perspectives (aka cognitive preferences), which means that our motivations can very easily step outside the box of 'one from each set'.

To assume that Enneagram can be used to explain personality in an encompassing cognitive model would be like assuming that MBTI could explain someone's motivations. Enneagram can't be used to cover the scope of the mind. It isn't designed for that any more than Jungian Archetypes can tell you what a person wants most in life. That's why these two systems work so well together. They cover different aspects of personality - perspective and motivation.


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## agokcen

Nobleheart said:


> Honestly, I think you're taking the Enneagram into a simplification that it can't really fit into when you presume that Enneagram types are a source of basic emotions, or that any of these types can fit neatly into a box.
> 
> Enneagram types are nothing more than the logical manifestation of basic motivations. If someone's basic motivation is for success, they will adapt mechanisms to support this motivation, often the same mechanisms, good, bad, or indifferent... and therefore become a Type 3. If you don't understand that Enneagram is based on inherent motivations, you need to go back to basics. How a person adapts to those motivations is what creates the possibility of a wing or not. Most people will adapt in a similar fashion - the balanced type. Some people will develop more toward one of the other wing directions in adapting to their primary motivation.
> 
> Enneagram type is based on an individual's primary motivation, be it a desire for success, power, love, rightness, fun, loyalty, etc. The only way that additional influences can be taken into account is if we consider secondary and tertiary motivations. These motivations needn't fit neatly into a logical model, as motivations are often illogical. Ennegram is nothing more than a model of motivations and how people typically adapt to their motivations. Motivations are frequently instilled in us at an early age by external factors and filtered by our perspectives (aka cognitive preferences), which means that our motivations can very easily step outside the box of 'one from each set'.
> 
> To assume that Enneagram can be used to explain personality in an encompassing cognitive model would be like assuming that MBTI could explain someone's motivations. Enneagram can't be used to cover the scope of the mind. It isn't designed for that any more than Jungian Archetypes can tell you what a person wants most in life. That's why these two systems work so well together. They cover different aspects of personality - perspective and motivation.


Just know that he's not making this up. The tritype theory is pretty generally accepted in the Enneagram community. Yes, we still all have our main type that "defines" us and tells of our _core_ motivation, but we aren't one-dimensional. The Enneagram considers three dimensions of our character and motivation -- image, thinking, and instinctual matters -- and represents it with one type from each triad to describe us in each respective dimension. Naturally, for example, my Eight and Five fixes don't make me the same as people who are primary Eights and Fives. It just makes me a flavor of Three, and that's the point. People are going to have different levels of balance among the types, but that's to be expected -- it doesn't invalidate the idea that we have a type to describe each of our three supposed dimensions.

If it helps, don't think of this as the traditional Enneagram; think of it as something new and, in my opinion, better. It's still based on the simple idea of type, but it expands and explains so much more. It's not about having multiple types and motivations, but being able to describe multiple dimensions of oneself -- and understand which of these dimensions is most prominent and core-driven from person to person.

Of course no system can ever truly explain a person -- and cognitive functioning as well as motivations can manifest in different ways. That's a given. The tritype theory of the Enneagram is just a way of expanding on what most people feel is an inadequate theory (and I tend to agree -- in its simplest form, I think the Enneagram is pretty much crap), so you can take it or leave it. Clearly it's no science -- no personality theory can claim that.


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## Scruffy

> Honestly, I think you're taking the Enneagram into a simplification that it can't really fit into when you presume that Enneagram types are a source of basic emotions, or that any of these types can fit neatly into a box.


I think you have a loose grip on the Enneagram, and you're counter-phobic is showing. 

The centers unify three types, each of those three types relate to a main emotion of the center. Again with the blender, you're seeking a liquid mess I can feed to an infant.



> Enneagram types are nothing more than the logical manifestation of basic motivations. If someone's basic motivation is for success, they will adapt mechanisms to support this motivation, often the same mechanisms, good, bad, or indifferent... and therefore become a Type 3. If you don't understand that Enneagram is based on inherent motivations, you need to go back to basics. How a person adapts to those motivations is what creates the possibility of a wing or not. Most people will adapt in a similar fashion - the balanced type. Some people will develop more toward one of the other wing directions in adapting to their primary motivation.


Other than a very basic description of the Enneagram, this paragraph is nothing more than word vomit and pretty frills.




> Enneagram type is based on an individual's primary motivation, be it a desire for success, power, love, rightness, fun, loyalty, etc. The only way that additional influences can be taken into account is if we consider secondary and tertiary motivations. These motivations needn't fit neatly into a logical model, as motivations are often illogical. Ennegram is nothing more than a model of motivations and how people typically adapt to their motivations. Motivations are frequently instilled in us at an early age by external factors and filtered by our perspectives (aka cognitive preferences), which means that our motivations can very easily step outside the box of 'one from each set'.


Again, Tri-Theory is not a mix of motivations, I would recommend reading. You sound like a substitute teacher, having to teach the class with nothing more than scholastic readings. Understanding a system is a bit more than knowing how it -basically- works.



> To assume that Enneagram can be used to explain personality in an encompassing cognitive model would be like assuming that MBTI could explain someone's motivations. Enneagram can't be used to cover the scope of the mind. It isn't designed for that any more than Jungian Archetypes can tell you what a person wants most in life. That's why these two systems work so well together. They cover different aspects of personality - perspective and motivation.


Passive aggression is a killer, I'll make sure to watch out for people (the ones that assume in the manner you state).

Rather than to attack one with a sense of direction, all I saw from you was word-vomit. I'll admit the bullshit is a bit rough to sift through (it's like Taco Bell or something), relevance is key.


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## Nobleheart

agokcen said:


> I tend to agree -- in its simplest form, I think the Enneagram is pretty much crap, so you can take it or leave it. Clearly it's no science -- no personality theory can claim that.


I agree.

From what I can tell about Enneagram, it is a highly speculative system based almost entirely on escalating conjecture. It began as conjecture from George Ivanovich Gurdjieff's Fourth Way teachings, and has since had the conjecture of countless others added to it. There are a lot of contradictions within Enneagram theories and descriptions. Everyone seems to have their own take on it. I've also seen many tweaks and tinkerings with the Enneagram system to attempt to make it a valid system. This tri-type approach seems to be another attempt to make Enneagram apply to the entirety of a person, though it does build upon the basic intentions of the Fourth Way methodology. 

However, it steps away from the root of the Enneagram - which is inherent motivations. While every human being would to some degree have all of the motivations implied in the Enneagram, I think it is terribly assumptive to presume that each of the Fourth Way divisions (Head, Body, Heart) has a greater affect on personality than our inherent motivations - in the order in which they motivate us.

According to the logic of this system (and the results below), I would be an 8w9 Body, 2w1 *or* possibly a 4w5 (even though they're both almost tied) Heart, and lastly a 7w8 (even though my 8 is clearly stronger than my 7... unless we want to presume that my 7 has a 6 wing, even though 6 is one of my lowest scores...) Head. 

View attachment 1184


This is where the tri-type theory really falls apart for me. It doesn't take into account the strength of preferences, which in turn downplays personality mechanisms that are important to the individual while elevating sensibilities that are somewhat minor to the individual.

According to the scores above, my Body score is 112, my Heart score is 101, and my Head score is 91. Again, it is pretty clear that any motivations stemming from the Head types are not especially important to my psychological mechanisms. I'm not presuming I don't have any of them at all, but to assume that they have much of an affect on my personality seems to be ignoring the obvious. Tri-type theory is inherently designed to overlook important factors. If you're going to look past the most preferred Enneagram type, you need to look at everything, not just a few of the highlights, especially when they're forced samples.


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## agokcen

Methinks you're placing too much value on testing. Most tests are pretty much worthless and are only vague guides to send you on your way to finding your type. Finding your true type ought to be primarily based upon personal research and reflection...NOT internet test results.


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## Promethea

Nobleheart said:


> I agree.
> 
> From what I can tell about Enneagram, it is a highly speculative system based almost entirely on escalating conjecture. It began as conjecture from George Ivanovich Gurdjieff's Fourth Way teachings, and has since had the conjecture of countless others added to it. There are a lot of contradictions within Enneagram theories and descriptions. Everyone seems to have their own take on it. I've also seen many tweaks and tinkerings with the Enneagram system to attempt to make it a valid system. This tri-type approach seems to be another attempt to make Enneagram apply to the entirety of a person, though it does build upon the basic intentions of the Fourth Way methodology.
> 
> However, it steps away from the root of the Enneagram - which is inherent motivations. While every human being would to some degree have all of the motivations implied in the Enneagram, I think it is terribly assumptive to presume that each of the Fourth Way divisions (Head, Body, Heart) has a greater affect on personality than our inherent motivations - in the order in which they motivate us.
> 
> According to the logic of this system (and the results below), I would be an 8w9 Body, 2w1 *or* possibly a 4w5 (even though they're both almost tied) Heart, and lastly a 7w8 (even though my 8 is clearly stronger than my 7... unless we want to presume that my 7 has a 6 wing, even though 6 is one of my lowest scores...) Head.
> 
> View attachment 1184
> 
> 
> This is where the tri-type theory really falls apart for me. It doesn't take into account the strength of preferences, which in turn downplays personality mechanisms that are important to the individual while elevating sensibilities that are somewhat minor to the individual.
> 
> According to the scores above, my Body score is 112, my Heart score is 101, and my Head score is 91. Again, it is pretty clear that any motivations stemming from the Head types are not especially important to my psychological mechanisms. I'm not presuming I don't have any of them at all, but to assume that they have much of an affect on my personality seems to be ignoring the obvious. Tri-type theory is inherently designed to overlook important factors. If you're going to look past the most preferred Enneagram type, you need to look at everything, not just a few of the highlights, especially when they're forced samples.


One problem here is that you are depending on some random test, and going by the percentages it gives you, as a way to measure, and prove _something larger than a bad test_, is inaccurate. If this test had twice the amount of questions, you would see these percentages change quite a bit, as there would be more to go by. So, thats not an accurate way to measure this. Next.

Also, even with the tritype, there is still a core type. The tritype just broadens your type a bit to account for things that the core type might not. Its a more accurate fingerprint. Me for example, my core type is a head type. I still have inner-workings that are motivated by heart, and gut - they just aren't as predominant, but they are certainly there, and rear their head at times. They also give a slightly different flavor to my head type than another person might have with a heart fix, and gut fix different from my own. Most fives seem to have a nine gut fix.. they are passive on top of their five shyness, making them overall seem not nearly as aggressive and assured as I come off as, being that my gut fix is eight.

And I do see where you are coming from, attacking the 'logic of the system' - been there, done that. Maybe there is nothing to any 'pseudo-science' or typology at all - but if you are actually going to buy into the system enough to walk around wearing one of its labels, why not at least make sure its an accurate label? Enneagram -is- a system, with specific rules and specific descriptions for each type. If you are such a unique snowflake that enneagram can't explain what you are, and if the system is so illogical and wrong, then why wear one of its labels at all?


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## Nobleheart

I suppose I did the typical 8 approach of seeming to attack what I don't understand in an attempt to test it and learn from the results. Sorry. It's just my manner. I appreciate the help and explanations.



agokcen said:


> Methinks you're placing too much value on testing. Most tests are pretty much worthless and are only vague guides to send you on your way to finding your type. Finding your true type ought to be primarily based upon personal research and reflection...NOT internet test results.





Promethea said:


> One problem here is that you are depending on some random test, and going by the percentages it gives you, as a way to measure, and prove _something larger than a bad test_, is inaccurate. If this test had twice the amount of questions, you would see these percentages change quite a bit, as there would be more to go by. So, thats not an accurate way to measure this. Next.


/nod

I understand the issues with self assessment tests, as well as the craftsmanship of random tests made by people who are unlikely to be experts. I agree that one test is only going to point you in the right direction to start doing your research.

I posted those results because they're extremely typical of the results I've gotten from various Enneagram tests I've taken over the years. There are five Enneagram tests out there that I've taken once every few months, when I allow myself time to forget what I answered the time before. 

Three of them (the one above, similarminds, and that Enneagram focused site with two tests) provide results that are 8 - 4 - 2 often with 1 a tie with 2. 
One of them (the other test from the Enneagram focused site) provides results that are 2 - 8 - 1 - 4.
The last one (a very long test on an Enneagram enthusiast's blog) provides results that are 4 - 2 - 9.

I'm posting my results because I'm trying to see how I would fit into the Tri-type theory so I can better understand it. I do best with personal examples from which I then branch out. However, my scores are clearly not fitting into the Tri-type system as it is described. Therefore either the system is bunk or I need someone to show me how I would fit into it otherwise. I was kinda hoping for the latter.



Promethea said:


> Also, even with the tritype, there is still a core type. The tritype just broadens your type a bit to account for things that the core type might not. Its a more accurate fingerprint. Me for example, my core type is a head type. I still have inner-workings that are motivated by heart, and gut - they just aren't as predominant, but they are certainly there, and rear their head at times. They also give a slightly different flavor to my head type than another person might have with a heart fix, and gut fix different from my own. Most fives seem to have a nine gut fix.. they are passive on top of their five shyness, making them overall seem not nearly as aggressive and assured as I come off as, being that my gut fix is eight.
> 
> And I do see where you are coming from, attacking the 'logic of the system' - been there, done that. Maybe there is nothing to any 'pseudo-science' or typology at all - but if you are actually going to buy into the system enough to walk around wearing one of its labels, why not at least make sure its an accurate label? Enneagram -is- a system, with specific rules and specific descriptions for each type. If you are such a unique snowflake that enneagram can't explain what you are, and if the system is so illogical and wrong, then why wear one of its labels at all?


I'm not an Enneagram expert, but I'm somewhat well read on the basics. I'm trying to understand this tri-type approach and how it differs from the standard model where each type acts like other types during growth and stress. If I am to understand this system correctly... it overlaps on top of everything else about Enneagram, so it would look like this...? 

My Body fix would be 8w9. 
My 8 side seems like a 2 when healthy and 5 when stressed.

My Heart fix would be either some manner of 4 or 2, probably 4w3. 
My 4 side seems like a 1 when healthy and a 2 when stressed.

My Head fix would then be something like 6 or 5, probably a 6w5.
My 6 side seems like a 9 when healthy and a 3 when stressed.

When I am in a mode where Body is in charge I'm most like the 8w9. When my Heart takes over I'm like the 4w3. When my Head is in charge I am more motivated by the 6w5? Also, this implies that while I don't have 2 in my set, my Body and Heart fixes go to 2 when respectively healthy or stressed, so I'm going to seem a lot like a 2 when either of them are in dominance - which is more often than not because I'm primarily Body and Heart oriented. When my Head is healthy it seems like 9, which also supports my Body's 9 wing. When my Body is unhealthy, I seem 5 like which supports my Head 5 wing. When my head is stressed, I seem a bit 3 like which supports my Heart's 3 wing. 

Therefore, some people radiate into seeming like certain types (manifesting certain type isms) through fix echoes?

The fix that is most commonly in charge is my core type? Or is core type independent of these? For instance, my Body is most often in control, that makes me an 8w9... or is my Body fix something entirely separate from my core type, and my Body fix could be something like a 1w2? (If the latter is the case, please explain how that works, thanks)


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## Scruffy

> I suppose I did the typical 8 approach of seeming to attack what I don't understand in an attempt to test it and learn from the results. Sorry. It's just my manner. I appreciate the help and explanations.


That's 6ish behavior, really, I see no 8. In the "arguments" you get into over Perc you've used the excuse "I'm an 8 sorry guys, it's what we do". 

Now while your touting your "people are too complex to type" deal, this is contradictory behavior. A mental cop-out to avoid the real. You look like you have to prove your 8ness everywhere you go, as it is not a natural preference.



> The fix that is most commonly in charge is my core type? Or is core type independent of these? For instance, my Body is most often in control, that makes me an 8w9... or is my Body fix something entirely separate from my core type, and my Body fix could be something like a 1w2? (If the latter is the case, please explain how that works, thanks)


In Tri-Theory, core type is still core type. It's the First type in the XwX-XwX-XwX format, they are ordered by relevance (strength in each). 

It's not about a type "taking control", core is still the rock. It's your attitude towards each of the centers (how you approach: image, gut, and head). 

My Tri (3w4-5w6-8w7), shows that the 3w4 is my core type, it is also in the image center which makes it my image fix. My 5w6 head fix shows more than my 8w7 gut fix (hence the ordering).

Wings don't express another type (a 3w4 is not like a 3 and 4 combined), it's the focus of your main type. A 3 with a 4 wing, will look for the "fame, success, yadda yadda" through the realm of a 4. They like to be admired from afar, (as opposed to the more personable approach of a 3w2), "you can look, but don't touch".


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## Nobleheart

Scruffy said:


> That's 6ish behavior, really, I see no 8. In the "arguments" you get into over Perc you've used the excuse "I'm an 8 sorry guys, it's what we do".
> 
> Now while your touting your "people are too complex to type" deal, this is contradictory behavior. A mental cop-out to avoid the real. You look like you have to prove your 8ness everywhere you go, as it is not a natural preference.


Your opinion on my type is irrelevant.



Scruffy said:


> In Tri-Theory, core type is still core type. It's the First type in the XwX-XwX-XwX format, they are ordered by relevance (strength in each).
> 
> It's not about a type "taking control", core is still the rock. It's your attitude towards each of the centers (how you approach: image, gut, and head).
> 
> My Tri (3w4-5w6-8w7), shows that the 3w4 is my core type, it is also in the image center which makes it my image fix. My 5w6 head fix shows more than my 8w7 gut fix (hence the ordering).


Thanks for explaining this.


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## agokcen

Nobleheart said:


> Your opinion on my type is irrelevant.


There's no need to be rude. He may not know you well enough to judge your type for sure, but he does understand the Enneagram a good deal better than you do, and he was simply stating how your posting behavior appears in terms of relating back to type.


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## Nobleheart

agokcen said:


> There's no need to be rude. He may not know you well enough to judge your type for sure, but he does understand the Enneagram a good deal better than you do, and he was simply stating how your posting behavior appears in terms of relating back to type.


That wasn't rude. It was just a fact, not intended to be antagonistic. I was simply stating my lack of interest on the subject.


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## aestrivex

whenever i see things like the "4w5-5w4 is a really weird type, you are not one" i more or less think "bullshit."

it has been the way of things for a long time, both in the enneagram and in the various schools of thought in socionics, that battletyping has largely seemed to me to predominate over sanity, and usually in ways a la typewatch that make no sense (literally, the people at typewatch universally decided i was 1w9-fixed after initially thinking i was 9w8-fixed because someone commented "have you ever seen a 9w8-fixed 5? ridiculous")

i have always believed that people are the types they are and damn the consequences, which has led a lot of people to accuse me precisely of overtyping people in the socionics community as betas, and if people were paying attention to my enneagram typings they would probably accuse me of overtyping slow nines and perhaps fives -- but damn them because i think the people i typed as those things are those types, and who cares about anything else.


i won't pretend to fully understand the model assumptions behind why 4w5-5w4 is unlikely or impossible -- for one thing i have come to stop even using a system of wings in which 5w4 and 4w5 even exist, although i respect that people that say they do exist (which happens to include everyone in the world except for me to my knowledge who pays the slightest bit of attention to tritypes) are merely using a model with a different set of assumptions, which is all well and good. personally i have some difficulty interpreting the kind of conclusion that 4w5-5w4 is unlikely principally because it seems like there is some magical assumption against it; whereas we have fundamentally this character with strongly introspective traits that we would think of as 5w4 or 4w5, but we can't figure out a way to quite attribute everything to this character; indeed despite the fact that for all the world they look heavily introspective we use piddling little disclaimers like "well we're really seeing the 5's wing at 4, but the 4 must have a wing at 3" or some interpretive nonsense that tells us nothing about what this character actually *looks like.* actually, this is true of almost all popular interpretations of tritypes which seem for the most part to be surface characteristics; the fauvres' archetypes (and incidentally they have no problem typing tons of people as sx, 4, 5, 8, 458, 459, 478, and what have you -- i used to think they were just sort of naive for just accepting and not challenging people's self-typings and i still think they do a bit but now i moreso think they just don't really care that much about the random riffraff on the internet) constitute the only exception to this that i have seen, and it is their system of archetypes i use almost exclusively in thinking about tritypes.

i have no problems from my view of tritypes typing people as 4w5-5w4, except for the minor detail that i dont think this wing combination exists (and maybe also the minor, related, detail that i haven't figured out if i think wings make any sense applied to tritypes).


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## Promethea

The idea that fours are so rare, and that you can't have something like '5w4 4w5' in your tritype isn't common enneagram theory -at all-. If you read the books, sites, and look at the fauvre's research (Enneagram Tests, Instinctual Subtypes, Tritype, and Enneagram Type Reports! and they have a fb profile) you will see that theres nothing to back that up. A few people have taken some ennegram theories from a small private forum run by a person _with his -own- ideas on enneagram_ (some of which are pretty wacko), and have sang them as gospel on this forum. I realize that not many of you know me very well, or understand enneagram theory very well, but on that forum I was told that I am an enfp for example, and a so first variant stacking with a 1 gut fix - all of which are blatantly incorrect, which is obvious to anyone who knows me. And then I was told by this band of lunatics that what they decide can't possibly be wrong. When someone shoots off an enneagram theory, *ask for the source of their information.* Some of it is not enneagram theory, but personal theory from personal observations which of course include the observers own personal biases. 

I have noticed another problem in trusting other people to type you. Say they get a few things right that you didn't put together yourself, well then many people are prone to believing the rest of what they say, as if they are an authority on you, or on enneagram (and many times they are not). So be critical of the information you are receiving. If it doesn't seem completely right to you then don't assume that it all has to be.

Also look at why someone may be trying to 'correct' your typing of yourself. Whats it to them, basically. Is it a helpful friend who knows you well and wants to see you healthy, or are they perhaps in it for ego. I have had a few admit that for them, having someone roll over and accept their diagnosis is quite a little boost. At that point, it becomes a game of tug-o-war, where you're trying to reclaim what you know of yourself, while someone else is trying to take that away. And sometimes their investment in your type gets a little creepy.. like, reading your things off the forums and sending it to their cohorts to read, and sharing personal things with a group. (I personally had this very thing happen and the IP addresses are logged to prove it - plus some personal messages that someone sent me, after acquiring them by ethically questionable means, but indeed I saw this go down, like it was some kind of game to haze and pigeonhole me on that forum that I mentioned at the beginning of this message. If anyone wants more information on that, PM me).

Anyway, my advice is this: understand the types thoroughly and take a good hard honest look at yourself, how you -_usually_- are.. -and- in some cases, how you usually were before you went through a lot of self-development (I think this really complicates it for some people because they grow and develop a lot, then they don't seem as entranced in their core as someone who is less developed would. Again, I speak from personal experience here.)

Another thing is to just forget the negative stereotypes associated with type. I can think of several common stereotypes that I can't identify with, that I see even those who claim to be very well versed in enneagram, accept as just a part of that type. You aren't going to identify with all of those, or even all of any profile on your type. I often see people say, 'well I don't agree with these coupla lines, so I can't be that type' -- the thing is, you won't identify with all of it but you will in time see which one you identify with -most-.


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## Zibb

Well, I figured it out. Yes, it's definitely possible. I can clearly distinguish all three points.


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## slyspy

Can anyone tell me how they know whether to put the heart fix before the gut fix or the gut fix before the heart. I'm a 5w4 with a 4w5 heart fix and a 8w9 gut fix. I also don't really understand what people are saying about there not being a 5w4 with a 4w5....*confused as hell*. I don't relate to the 6 very much and the 3 at all (it is always my lowest score along with 2). Are they at odds? Also I am confused about whether or not my gut fix is 8w9 or 9w8. Can anyone tell me the differences in detail?


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## Promethea

@slyspy
The placement of the types in your tritype is a very complicated and scientific process. I will explain: Basically the ones that are strongest in you are placed first. : P

After figuring out your fix from each triad, then figure out which one is more of a priority or which one is more obvious in you. For example, I put my image fix last because I think my gut fix is a lot stronger in me, but I am mostly a head type, and it shows the most. The hardest part is figuring out which is strongest in you for some people.

Also, some enneagram theorists don't put much stock into tritypes as meaning anything much, others do. Some individuals just decide they strongly identify with their core, and not the other types much, and decide they don't need a tri. 

There is another way of dealing with tritypes here:
http://socionics.ws/forums/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=1136


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## timeless

One weird thing that I heard about tri-types (which isn't true) is that you always go counter-clockwise from your first type when it comes to ordering.


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## Coburn

Very interesting.

I remember someone once saying that everyone's an 8 online because they can hide behind the mask of anonymity.


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## LibertyPrime

I constantly test as 4w5 sp/sx, people are thoroughly convinced that I'm a 6w7 (while I can barely identify with that type) and I think I'm 9w1 either sp/sx or sx/sp....but mostly I identify with type 4 behavior and tendency wise, with type 9's motivation of conflict avoidance, yet I sometimes create conflict myself...which then makes me want to explode.

I really hate it when people are conviced that I am so and so, because:

1. They never met me and don't know me.
2. I find it difficult to comprehend how they can have such a vast knowledge about the enneagram, mind boggling.
3. They get pushy and aggressive in their need for me to accept what they tell me, which leads me to believe its just the ego thing.


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## Harley

Anarchy said:


> I constantly test as 4w5 sp/sx, people are thoroughly convinced that I'm a 6w7 (while I can barely identify with that type) and I think I'm 9w1 either sp/sx or sx/sp....but mostly I identify with type 4 behavior and tendency wise, with type 9's motivation of conflict avoidance, yet I sometimes create conflict myself...which then makes me want to explode.


This is one of the biggest problems I have with the enneagram. It assumes that if you have childhood x you will develop basic desire and fear y which will lead to enneagram type z with all of its associated behaviours and actions. This is a very strict and linear way of thinking that places way too much emphasis on nurture and not enough on nature in my opinion. For instance if you take two individuals who are predisposed to favour opposing sets of personality traits and put them in the same childhood environment and raise them the exact same way there is absolutely no guarantee that these two individuals will grow up to have to same basic fears and desires, motivations, and behaviours because their opposing predisposed personality traits will lead them to react and perceive the world in very different ways. A lot of who we were is already in place once we are born, and while environment certainly does play a significant role in how we develop in terms of cognition, learning and acquiring skills in terms of personality environment if influential only in so far as it encourages or discourages an individual's predisposed character traits. Also, I take issue with the fact that you're only supposed to have one basic fear/desire which align with each other, it would make more sense if everyone had three basic desires and fears one from each triad.

Using myself as an example I have the basic fear of an 8 but the basic desire of a 4. To any enneagram purist this makes absolutely no sense but to me it fits in perfectly with my motivations in life for the following reasons; deep down I don't want to be told what to do or have my life dictated for me in any way, shape or form from personal matters, to financial, to educational, to artistic etc. Even when I'm feeling indecisive I just need people to leave me the fuck alone so I can think things through and come up with a plan. My basic four desire plays into this because I know that if I'm true to myself and own up all of my insecurities and weaknesses people will find no reason to prey on my insecurities and use them against me to control me because I'm at peace with them. Also, if I live my life out with passion and authenticity with little regards to what other people think, people will pick up on that and leave me alone because they see that I live my own life, my own way and nothing they can say or do will affect my life course. 

Only those who don't know themselves risk being controlled and harmed. People who live with passion and honesty to themselves are invulnerable to any sort of control or manipulation.


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## screamofconscious

Harley said:


> This is one of the biggest problems I have with the enneagram. It assumes that if you have childhood x you will develop basic desire and fear y which will lead to enneagram type z with all of its associated behaviours and actions.


Riso and Hudson have theorized that type is a combination of nature and nurture. To my knowledge, they were also the first to assert suppositions pertaining to the types of childhood that each type has. What you're missing is that a self-description of ones childhood is going to be heavily colored by the distortions on reality that each type projects.


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## marzipan01

@Scruffy, just an idea I'd like to share with you on this topic. 

While I'm certain your list is fairly accurate in terms of describing the general population, take a look in the ESTP, ESFP, and ESFJ sections of the forum. ESFJs are considered to be the personality type with the highest percentage of women and yet, we see very few ESFJs. The few who make it here make a short appearance and fly away. Similarly, on any given night I can't walk down a city street without bumping into a thicket of ESxPs hanging out around the bars. And yet their sections are relatively vacant. 

This forum is a place were I would imagine many inuitive types, ISTJs, and types 4 and 5 ennea-types would aggregate--both of which are fascinated by the esoteric and a method to understanding themselves (4) and others (5). Thus, the group of people you are studying is going to be a little different than the ordinary population.


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## marzipan01

Scruffy said:


> Type 5: Another grand mis-type, if you're intelligent and* cannot shower*, you are a 5...


Hey, man, I shower, okay.


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## luemb

It just hit me why enneagram is rearranged the way it is. 

Each of the centers has a left, middle and right enneagram type. 

These types follow the same pattern all the way around, so 2, 5 and 8 are similar, 3, 6 and 9 are also similar, as is 4, 7 and 1. 

I will draw up a chart tomorrow with a full explanation. 

This explains why we have wings as well.


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## luemb

Alrighty, I got it drawn up. It looks pretty simple. 

I'm starting to have doubts that this is right. I think I need to combine it with more info. 









My thoughts were that some aspect of type, as one moves around the circle, repeats in an "abc" pattern, to explain why the wings cause such differences in personality, and how one can have wings from other centers without getting two of the same thing. 

So, perhaps I was just hoping something is there, and maybe it's really not. On the other hand, perhaps that is why the enneagram is ordered the way it is. 

So, from each group, there will be three different "kinds" of types. One notices that the outer world is a source of fear, one notices the inner world is a source of fear, and one denies fear. (The 6 description doesn't always state that the person denies fear, but, at the core, I think it is true. A lot of 6's would say "no I'm not afraid.") Here's the link I used for ideas.


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## LibertyPrime

Got a bit of trouble, maybe someone will be able to shed some light on it.

According to tritype theory I have an 8 as my gut fix because as a 6 I fear submitting and being controlled. I get highly volatile when the attempt is made and rebel, get confrontational. I allow very few people (and constantly test even these) to tell me what to do. Even with them I tend to backtalk sometimes.

Now I have been confused about 4 and 6 for a long time and score very high on 4, I can see a lot of it in me...but I wonder if a 648 would be more reactive and more counter phobic then I am. Honestly I fail to see how I am counter phobic since I am anxious and insecure on the inside. I am diagnosed with *Avoidant Personality Disorder*. More often then not I am so damn scared of doing certain things that I'd rather avoid it then face it (*this is usually just social stuff, I won't run from physical danger or actual danger...I mainly run from my own negative anticipatory thoughts*). Which speaks more for phobic...thou I do tend to deny it and get volatile-defensive..idk.

Maybe it is 628? Thou I don't have a need to help people. Sure I like to help but I prefer it if people can handle their own shit and won't depend too much on me. *I run from needy people like they have the plague.* I love to help if it fixes the problem, if the problem persists or people get needy whiny...I'm just going to fade away -.- I can't take that sort of thing.

*How I solved the ordering:*

Basically I did a lot of introspection and observed my behavior to determine what I do more often and where I spend most of my energy. This proved to be my head, I think a lot, analysis paralysis is very common thing for me, so 6 or sure, then I feel, I have INFP preferences so this made a lot of sense. The last thing I usually do is act, so gut comes last. Coincidence or not, it is exactly the counter clockwise ordering. Head-->Heart--->Gut.


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## screamofconscious

Rim said:


> Got a bit of trouble, maybe someone will be able to shed some light on it.
> 
> According to tritype theory I have an 8 as my gut fix because as a 6 I fear submitting and being controlled. I get highly volatile when the attempt is made and rebel, get confrontational. I allow very few people (and constantly test even these) to tell me what to do. Even with them I tend to backtalk sometimes.


Naranjo referred to this fear as a fear of surrendering through love. I relate to this on the level of basic trust. Being able to relax enough to stop scanning for danger in others is one of the biggest challenges I've faced. Their attempts at control can easily cause me to dig in my heels. I'm still working on unraveling the mechanism in that one but am at least partway there since there are times where I will notice more covert attempts at control and not get upset by it. I just really wanted to say that I'm no 8 fixer nor can I imagine that I'd ever be mistaken for one but I can still relate to what you're saying there.


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## marzipan01

Rim said:


> Got a bit of trouble, maybe someone will be able to shed some light on it.
> 
> According to tritype theory I have an 8 as my gut fix because as a 6 I fear submitting and being controlled. I get highly volatile when the attempt is made and rebel, get confrontational. I allow very few people (and constantly test even these) to tell me what to do. Even with them I tend to backtalk sometimes.
> 
> Now I have been confused about 4 and 6 for a long time and score very high on 4, I can see a lot of it in me...but I wonder if a 648 would be more reactive and more counter phobic then I am. Honestly I fail to see how I am counter phobic since I am anxious and insecure on the inside. I am diagnosed with *Avoidant Personality Disorder*. More often then not I am so damn scared of doing certain things that I'd rather avoid it then face it (*this is usually just social stuff, I won't run from physical danger or actual danger...I mainly run from my own negative anticipatory thoughts*). Which speaks more for phobic...thou I do tend to deny it and get volatile-defensive..idk.
> 
> Maybe it is 628? Thou I don't have a need to help people. Sure I like to help but I prefer it if people can handle their own shit and won't depend too much on me. *I run from needy people like they have the plague.* I love to help if it fixes the problem, if the problem persists or people get needy whiny...I'm just going to fade away -.- I can't take that sort of thing.
> 
> *How I solved the ordering:*
> 
> Basically I did a lot of introspection and observed my behavior to determine what I do more often and where I spend most of my energy. This proved to be my head, I think a lot, analysis paralysis is very common thing for me, so 6 or sure, then I feel, I have INFP preferences so this made a lot of sense. The last thing I usually do is act, so gut comes last. Coincidence or not, it is exactly the counter clockwise ordering. Head-->Heart--->Gut.


1. Fear of submitting to others is a fundamental fear of all 6's even the 629--(the most "passive" tri-type). Have you ever heard of passive resistance? There are many ways people refuse to submit.
2. Good, now you've got head-heart-gut, out of the way.  
3. I think being withdrawn is an indication of 6w5. 
4. Your heart type might be difficult to assess--I know it was for me--because as a 6, I doubt my emotions as in: Do I really want to do that? Will that really make me happy? I think it requires your 6 to calm down for a few moments and just listen to your heart speak. What would actually make you happy--ideally? 
When your 6 is quiet just listen to your heart: 
Does your heart rush to be a self-sacrificing hero, devoting your life to the service of others? (type 2)
Or does your heart burst with hope and start setting goals lusting to achieve them? (type 3)
Or does your heart burn with longing, deep despair, melancholy, joy, envy, for all the beautiful and wonderful pieces you are missing? (Type 4)

As far as instinct in concerned, I think Timeless wrote an excellent article on the types and the parts of the Freudian psyche that each motive stems from--in case you want to search it. 

For me, I landed on 8w9 because 6w7 3w4 8w9 all just finally clicked together.
6-1's are afraid of being angry/losing their temper/being wrong/being bad. 6-9's are afraid of conflict (of course 9's can fight but they don't like it--a 9w8 is more likely to but still doesn't want to). 6-8's are afraid of humiliation. 
1's are more meticulous and detail oriented. I'm big picture but I'm by no means passive and actually I enjoy a good fight. 

Oh, and I read that 639 is the most common tri-type and considered to, therefore, be the healthiest. 
I know for me, I have tended to be quite pushy in the past and everyone said I was going to burn out. Eventually I did but only because I kept on failing and coming up second best and I realized I wasn't capable of doing everything I put my mind to (the biggest fears of the 6-3). And it was humiliating...lol. This all tells me that I can't really be the healthiest tri-type as everyone else kept telling me to be normal and take a lighter load. Okay, so I learned my tritype by assessing the point in my life when all my biggest fears became realities. Perhaps that would be good for you, too?


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## LibertyPrime

marzipan01 said:


> 1. Fear of submitting to others is a fundamental fear of all 6's even the 629--(the most "passive" tri-type). Have you ever heard of passive resistance? There are many ways people refuse to submit.
> 2. Good, now you've got head-heart-gut, out of the way.
> 3. I think being withdrawn is an indication of 6w5.
> 4. Your heart type might be difficult to assess--I know it was for me--because as a 6, I doubt my emotions as in: Do I really want to do that? Will that really make me happy? I think it requires your 6 to calm down for a few moments and just listen to your heart speak. What would actually make you happy--ideally?
> When your 6 is quiet just listen to your heart:
> Does your heart rush to be a self-sacrificing hero, devoting your life to the service of others? (type 2)
> Or does your heart burst with hope and start setting goals lusting to achieve them? (type 3)
> Or does your heart burn with longing, deep despair, melancholy, joy, envy, for all the beautiful and wonderful pieces you are missing? (Type 4)
> 
> As far as instinct in concerned, I think Timeless wrote an excellent article on the types and the parts of the Freudian psyche that each motive stems from--in case you want to search it.
> 
> For me, I landed on 8w9 because 6w7 3w4 8w9 all just finally clicked together.
> 6-1's are afraid of being angry/losing their temper/being wrong/being bad. 6-9's are afraid of conflict (of course 9's can fight but they don't like it--a 9w8 is more likely to but still doesn't want to). 6-8's are afraid of humiliation.
> 1's are more meticulous and detail oriented. I'm big picture but I'm by no means passive and actually I enjoy a good fight.
> 
> Oh, and I read that 639 is the most common tri-type and considered to, therefore, be the healthiest.
> I know for me, I have tended to be quite pushy in the past and everyone said I was going to burn out. Eventually I did but only because I kept on failing and coming up second best and I realized I wasn't capable of doing everything I put my mind to (the biggest fears of the 6-3). And it was humiliating...lol. This all tells me that I can't really be the healthiest tri-type as everyone else kept telling me to be normal and take a lighter load. Okay, so I learned my tritype by assessing the point in my life when all my biggest fears became realities. Perhaps that would be good for you, too?


I'm a bit different from the usual 6w5 even thou I can see parts of it in myself. 6w7 is just a better fit, I'm not all that withdrawn. Sometimes I can seem ENFP-ish and people have made that observation many times.

Judging by this all 3 gut fears are me, but I'm more afraid of humiliation then anything else. I hate being "wrong" because that will lead to the unbearable feeling of shame..where I feel foolish and humiliated...so even if I am wrong I will be aware of it and will fight against looking stupid or weak. I really need to learn to accept that I can be wrong and just give in when I am in stead of arguing. I also hate conflict but surprisingly I start conflict myself with my devil's advocacy and if I know that I am right...conflict avoidance flies out the window. 1 or 8 for gut is quite possible, since I do not manifest anger like a 1..thinking more along the lines of 8. Which is surprising because I score higher on 9 then 1 or 8.

From the heart triad...I don't know, I score very high on 4 and can see myself fully in the description minus the need for uniqueness. I don't like falseness and can detect it a mile away, but I guess that is just the 6 Fi. Serving others...well I would rather die  haha, honestly if the individual deserves it the he/she has my loyalty and I will be there when I am needed. I chose who to serve because it can be dangerous and I am in no way a servant! ^^;. As I said overly needy people who can not live without my help make me run for the hills and I avoid them like the pest. I actually broke up with someone over this because I couldn't handle her whiny needy nature anymore. Setting goals and 3, yes i love setting goals and getting organized to accomplish something... have a difficult time following through thou. I am not that competitive thou and don't care if it is second or first...why compete with someone else when you can make something unique, walk a path not traveled before and become accomplished like that?

So 3 or 4 is more likely here. While my core type is sure and I can relate to both wings extensively...the tritype itself feels like walking on unstable ground.

EDIT: nvm ^^ I figured it out 6w7 4w5 9w8 sp/sx slightly more counter phobic then phobic, not on the level of a 648 sx pure counterphobic. The more I read 649 the more it seems like that one is spot on compared to all the others.


----------



## marzipan01

Rim said:


> I'm a bit different from the usual 6w5 even thou I can see parts of it in myself. 6w7 is just a better fit, I'm not all that withdrawn. Sometimes I can seem ENFP-ish and people have made that observation many times.
> 
> Judging by this all 3 gut fears are me, but I'm more afraid of humiliation then anything else. I hate being "wrong" because that will lead to the unbearable feeling of shame..where I feel foolish and humiliated...so even if I am wrong I will be aware of it and will fight against looking stupid or weak. I really need to learn to accept that I can be wrong and just give in when I am in stead of arguing. I also hate conflict but surprisingly I start conflict myself with my devil's advocacy and if I know that I am right...conflict avoidance flies out the window. 1 or 8 for gut is quite possible, since I do not manifest anger like a 1..thinking more along the lines of 8. Which is surprising because I score higher on 9 then 1 or 8.
> 
> From the heart triad...I don't know, I score very high on 4 and can see myself fully in the description minus the need for uniqueness. I don't like falseness and can detect it a mile away, but I guess that is just the 6 Fi. Serving others...well I would rather die  haha, honestly if the individual deserves it the he/she has my loyalty and I will be there when I am needed. I chose who to serve because it can be dangerous and I am in no way a servant! ^^;. As I said overly needy people who can not live without my help make me run for the hills and I avoid them like the pest. I actually broke up with someone over this because I couldn't handle her whiny needy nature anymore. Setting goals and 3, yes i love setting goals and getting organized to accomplish something... have a difficult time following through thou. I am not that competitive thou and don't care if it is second or first...why compete with someone else when you can make something unique, walk a path not traveled before and become accomplished like that?
> 
> So 3 or 4 is more likely here. While my core type is sure and I can relate to both wings extensively...the tritype itself feels like walking on unstable ground.
> 
> EDIT: nvm ^^ I figured it out 6w7 4w5 9w8 sp/sx slightly more counter phobic then phobic, not on the level of a 648 sx pure counterphobic. The more I read 649 the more it seems like that one is spot on compared to all the others.


You sound so much like me except I don't hate conflict. 
Maybe I'm a 6w7 4w5 8w9 but I told my best friend I thought I was the debater and he said it was spot on.
I agree I don't like falseness or deceit but I find it very easy to schmooze when I turn it on. It's not fake it's charm and I genuinely like people so it's not difficult to compliment people and figure out what they're into. As an INFP, I'm sure it's easier to resonate with the 4 and 9 motives as introverts tend to be more withdrawn but the 6w7 would pull you out and make you primarily an ambivert.
I'm 6w7 sx core which may be where I get the connection to 3. Ah!


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## Nobleheart

Mooncutter said:


> *Like previous poster pointed out,* stubbornness IS a nine trait. From your description, I think you are a 9w8. The reason you can act so eight:ish is because that side was triggered so much in your childhood. So it developed well.


This is possible. I would rather be a 9. I admire them a lot more than the 8's I know. While I can respect the 8's, I really don't like the conflict they seem to thrive on. I don't thrive on it. The only problem I have with this is that I know 9's, and I don't feel that I have that dreamy affability that they seem to have. I'm too focused and aggressive... which I don't like about myself just like I don't like it in the 8's I know.



Mooncutter said:


> *A question: *
> a) You hate conflict but you don't fall short IN TAKING the conflict, am I right?


I don't understand this question. 

I don't like conflict, and I don't like it when I start it, but unfortunately I do it a lot, and I have a lot of difficulty backing down once I start it. I generally try to avoid conflict, but if it's going to happen, I will stand up for myself with whatever it takes to 'win' the conflict. Then later I'll feel bad about it.



Mooncutter said:


> b) You also, in a way, suffer while the conflict happens?


Yes. This is why I'm so prone to getting pissed off and fighting back when conflict arises. I fight fire with fire, as it were.


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## madhatter

Nobleheart said:


> This is possible. I would rather be a 9. I admire them a lot more than the 8's I know. While I can respect the 8's, I really don't like the conflict they seem to thrive on. I don't thrive on it. The only problem I have with this is that I know 9's, and I don't feel that I have that dreamy affability that they seem to have. I'm too focused and aggressive... which I don't like about myself just like I don't like it in the 8's I know.


I'm a 9w8, and I'm not dreamy or particularly affable. I am also focused and more aggressive than some other 9s. 



> I don't like conflict, and I don't like it when I start it, but unfortunately I do it a lot, and I have a lot of difficulty backing down once I start it. I generally try to avoid conflict, but if it's going to happen, I will stand up for myself with whatever it takes to 'win' the conflict. Then later I'll feel bad about it.


This sounds very 9-like to me.



> Yes. This is why I'm so prone to getting pissed off and fighting back when conflict arises. I fight fire with fire, as it were.


I'm more like this too. What I had to look for when deciding whether I was 8w9 or 9w8 is what is the motivation behind it. @timeless gave me some good advice about this, which I will now share with you: 


> 8w9 and 9w8 are pretty similar types. To me, the difference is that the 8w9 starts out in an aggressive position to maintain peace while the 9w8 starts out in a peaceful position and is aggressive when necessary. It's about where you start. If you come into a situation with a peaceful outlook and then get aggressive when it's shaken up, then that's more 9w8.


----------



## LibertyPrime

madhatter said:


> I'm a 9w8, and I'm not dreamy or particularly affable. I am also focused and more aggressive than some other 9s.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds very 9-like to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more like this too. What I had to look for when deciding whether I was 8w9 or 9w8 is what is the motivation behind it. @timeless gave me some good advice about this, which I will now share with you:


This is why I decided on 9w8 as my gut fix. The way I do things in conflict is very similar. It is like a bear, don't go poking it in the bear den, once it wakes up...it is more then you can handle . Thought I was 468, but 469 just fits better overall, but for some reason once conflict starts going I do exactly like you guys describe with 9w8. 9w8 just doesn't repress anger like 9w1 does.


----------



## Nobleheart

Rim said:


> 9w8 just doesn't repress anger like 9w1 does.


I find this fascinating. Am I to understand this correctly...

9w1 is "I need harmony, and because I am a good person I will repress my anger" ?
9w8 is "I need harmony, and because I am a strong person I will make it happen" ?


----------



## LibertyPrime

Nobleheart said:


> I find this fascinating. Am I to understand this correctly...
> 
> 9w1 is "I need harmony, and because I am a good person I will repress my anger" ?
> 9w8 is "I need harmony, and because I am a strong person I will make it happen" ?


Umm, how should I know? I'm a 6. I'd rather not make a statement I can't be sure about.


----------



## Jewl

I took the quiz and got 5w4 as my core type, which, although "cool", is not me.  I mean, it fits me to an extent. Learning, constantly playing with new ideas, studying things for the heck of it (mainly psychology and sociology) is very me. However, I do that because I enjoy people. So not type 5, I don't think. It said my second type was 9w1, which I thought fit me a lot better. I think I am a type 9. Or perhaps.. what's that other people-pleasing one? Eh, I don't know. I think my second type could be a type 5. Not my core.


----------



## DouglasMl

In that case, how would a 6w5, 1w9, 2w1 enneagram tri-type be stereotyped?


----------



## perfectcircle

This makes me wonder if I'm really a 3 not a 4, but I've spent the past seven years thinking I was a four and the past year writing in the four forum like I knew my shit so now I really, really hope I am a four or else I'm gonna be that person that everyone is like, "Weren't you a FOUR yesterday, make up your mind, flip flopper!"

That said, I am 96% sure I am a four.


----------



## marzipan01

DouglasMl said:


> In that case, how would a 6w5, 1w9, 2w1 enneagram tri-type be stereotyped?


612: 
"Trust me, this hurts me more than it hurts you but it's for your own good."


----------



## DouglasMl

marzipan01 said:


> 612:
> "Trust me, this hurts me more than it hurts you but it's for your own good."


Or, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."
(Ask a silly question....)


----------



## perfectcircle

rant to this effect:
It irritates me to no end when people type other people. If someone thinks they can divine someone from such superficial qualities, then their understanding of ennegarm is simplistic and based off stereotypes instead of the reality of the types. Ennegram types are often mis-typed based on an understanding of exterior manifestations and a simplistic understanding of the types. We all have different personas for dealing in the social arena, ennegaram measures your motivations behind what people see-- in order to type someone's ennegram, I truly believe you must be in a position to know them inimately over an extended period of time.
Like get off it, what are you trying to prove? This is a tool for inter-personal understanding, you'll never get anywhere if you keep reducing complexities down to more rigid understandings that alienates people from their essence, it totally defeats the purpose.


----------



## Dashing

In my defense, I consciously never checked rarity of any type before assessing myself. If it's true that it is weird to be a 5, well that kind of makes sense.


----------



## sleepyhead

listentothemountains said:


> Alrighty, I got it drawn up. It looks pretty simple.
> 
> I'm starting to have doubts that this is right. I think I need to combine it with more info.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> Each of the centers has a left, middle and right enneagram type.
> 
> These types follow the same pattern all the way around, so 2, 5 and 8 are similar, 3, 6 and 9 are also similar, as is 4, 7 and 1.


Have you read up about the other triads? There are 4 specifically that Riso and Hudson go into a fair bit of detail about in _The Wisdom of the Enneagram _and different types fall into different triads. The types you describe above all fall into the Object Relations Triad.

@Gokcen posted them in brief on page 4 of this thread and I think they might be along the lines of what you're trying to work out here.



> Center Triads
> Heart | Feeling | Image | Shame | Identity: Two, Three, Four
> Head | Thinking | Thought | Fear | Perspective/Understanding: Five, Six, Seven
> Gut | Instinctive/Doing | Handling of Stress | Anger | Control: Eight, Nine, One
> 
> Hornevian Triads
> Assertive | Practical | Move Against: Three, Seven, Eight
> Compliant | Fixed | Move Away: One, Two, Six
> Passive/Withdrawn | Flowing/Changing | Move Toward: Four, Five, Nine
> 
> Harmonic (Interaction Style) Triads
> Positive Outlook | Optimistic | Deny Problems: Two, Seven, Nine
> Competency | Neutral/Ambivalent | Intellectualize Problems: One, Three, Five
> Reactive | Pessimistic | Dwell on Problems: Four, Six, Eight
> 
> Object Relations Triads
> Power-Seeking | Rejection | Manipulate-Master-Dominate: Two, Five, Eight
> Approval-Seeking | Attachment/Relating | Recognize-Clarify-Unify: Three, Six, Nine
> Ideal-Seeking | Frustration | Repress-Sulk-Avoid: One, Four, Seven


----------



## LibertyPrime

\o/ wohoo I finally am getting to the bottom of this whole thing!

6w7 4w5-1w2 So/Sx <--100% sure now...it only took me about a year. Can't say I was thrilled to be a 6 or having a 1 and a 4 in my tritype (still aren't, but its okay). Interestingly enough I hated the very idea of being either type in my tritype and fought tooth and nail against being described as SO first...which I obviously am thou. *sigh*

If anyone has any questions about E6 or being social variant, I'd be happy to answer.

On a side note I decided to dump the MBTI and go with JCF, according to which I use the following functions (haven't figured out the order yet): Fi, Te, Ne, Si.


----------



## JungyesMBTIno

The ultimate 7 stereotypes have to be Pollyanna or most Robin Williams characters out there, ROFL.


----------



## aconite

JungyesMBTIno said:


> The ultimate 7 stereotypes have to be Pollyanna or most Robin Williams characters out there, ROFL.


Which is kind of ironic, since Pollyanna (as well as many characters played by Robin Williams) was a selfless and helpful person AFAIR (it's been a while since I read the books, though), and 7s tend to be really self-centered


----------



## JungyesMBTIno

Yeah, but they were high F types (although likely Fi types), so this might've colored this. I mean, really, most people are going to try to hide the fact that they are self-centered (and I'm pretty sure being a 7 doesn't necessarily entail self-centeredness as in major naricissism - there are many ways to look at the word "self-centered").


----------



## aconite

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I mean, really, most people are going to try to hide the fact that they are self-centered (and I'm pretty sure being a 7 doesn't necessarily entail self-centeredness as in major naricissism - there are many ways to look at the word "self-centered").


Oh, I didn't use "self-centered" as an euphemism for narcissism; and it's not a defining trait for 7 either. However, being concerned mostly with one's wishes and thoughts, especially at unhealthy levels, is a 7-ish thing (just look at most threads in the 7 forum: the posts tend to begin with I think/I want/I like etc.). Which is, IMO, not a very bad thing, since in our world there are too many unhappy people who repress their desires. Of course, there's a matter of tritypes, wings, instinctual stackings and the like: social 7w6 with 2 heart and 9 gut would probably be much less self-centered than a self-pres 7w8 with 4 heart and 8 gut, for example.


----------



## ununpentium

LOL I just realized that if you look at the enneagram start at 1 and follow the line .... 142,857... multiply that by 7 .... you get 999,999

then the 369 are left out..so why not draw a triangle?? XD


----------



## Hola.Ola.Ting.Ting

I am seeing too much, my eyes need to shut down for a bit...
could someone take over....

what does this mean:

7w6, 9w1, 3w2.


----------



## PlushWitch

Hola.Ola.Ting.Ting said:


> I am seeing too much, my eyes need to shut down for a bit...
> could someone take over....
> 
> what does this mean:
> 
> 7w6, 9w1, 3w2.


It means "clown".

haha... uhm...that was one of the stereotypes, I guess. :laughing:


----------



## DomNapoleon

People think that 4-5-8 are dark creepy creatures... THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE! We are not just dark, we are incredible intense ...


----------



## TaylorS

OrangeAppled said:


> In fairness to people here, there are an awful lot of INXX types who are not the most "common" IRl either. These kinds of theories can draw people who are a bit odd, people looking to understand why they stick out like a sore thumb in the world.
> 
> I do agree that some are likely mistyped also, but then I also think there are more Sensors around here than what types listed under avatars would have you believe. Those who stick out like a sore thumb (or feel they do) may identify with a type they are not because of the idea it is unusual or misunderstood.
> 
> Another thing about enneagram is that the profiles describe what a person with certain emotional motivations often looks like, because that's the image they seek to project, the ego they have formed to deal with their original wounding. So if a person identifies as a certain type by relating to the profile, it may be that IS their ego, because that's how they want to be & be seen. I do think it is important to put test results aside and check out some books, read some indepth profiles, one which delve into emotional motivations and how these motivations play out at the different stages of "healthiness".
> 
> Type 6 IS terribly represented in many profiles also, and the heavy association with SJs adds another stigma to it for many who have an anti SJ bias.
> 
> I've posted this blog before (not mine), regarding why there are so many enneagram 4s online....makes some good points about how such a type is romanticized in a way because of a shift in modern values, yet in reality it's not so pretty to be a 4.


I tend to see 4, especially 4w3, as the "look at me, look at me, I'm so special and unique" type. I've read elsewhere that being a 4 is associated with having been a spirited child with detached, ambivalent parents. the child learns to exaggerate their emotions in order to get their parents attention.

Despite how the type is romanticized by artistic types who delude themselves that they are a 4, 4s can be really nasty and have tendencies towards attention-seeking behavior. Unhealthy 4s will do harmful, destructive things to get attention.


----------



## TaylorS

Apparently I'm the most passive tri-type, 6-2-9. This really makes sense. When I am pissed off at those with power over me I tend not to express it openly. I either repress it or transmute it into mood-lightening clownish humor as a defense mechanism.


----------



## OrangeAppled

TaylorS said:


> I tend to see 4, especially 4w3, as the "look at me, look at me, I'm so special and unique" type. I've read elsewhere that being a 4 is associated with having been a spirited child with detached, ambivalent parents. the child learns to exaggerate their emotions in order to get their parents attention.
> 
> Despite how the type is romanticized by artistic types who delude themselves that they are a 4, 4s can be really nasty and have tendencies towards attention-seeking behavior. Unhealthy 4s will do harmful, destructive things to get attention.


I think that aspect is very exaggerated in some people's perceptions. Descriptions focus on it even less than people imagine. I think it leads to confusion with other types, such as the 7w6, often confused with 4w3s. 4s are also withdrawn and feel a lot of shame, which doesn't really jive with attention seeking. The reason they're associated with art is because they may seek an indirect outlet for expression, including their individuality, which can look like attention seeking.


----------



## heaveninawildflower

TaylorS said:


> I tend to see 4, especially 4w3, as the "look at me, look at me, I'm so special and unique" type. I've read elsewhere that being a 4 is associated with having been a spirited child with detached, ambivalent parents. the child learns to exaggerate their emotions in order to get their parents attention.
> 
> Despite how the type is romanticized by artistic types who delude themselves that they are a 4, 4s can be really nasty and have tendencies towards attention-seeking behavior. Unhealthy 4s will do harmful, destructive things to get attention.


 You say 4s can be really nasty...maybe you should take a good hard look at what you just wrote. And BTY, are you speaking from experience or assumptions?


----------



## perfectcircle

Promethea said:


> The idea that fours are so rare, and that you can't have something like '5w4 4w5' in your tritype isn't common enneagram theory -at all-. If you read the books, sites, and look at the fauvre's research (Enneagram Tests, Instinctual Subtypes, Tritype, and Enneagram Type Reports! and they have a fb profile) you will see that theres nothing to back that up. A few people have taken some ennegram theories from a small private forum run by a person _with his -own- ideas on enneagram_ (some of which are pretty wacko), and have sang them as gospel on this forum. I realize that not many of you know me very well, or understand enneagram theory very well, but on that forum I was told that I am an enfp for example, and a so first variant stacking with a 1 gut fix - all of which are blatantly incorrect, which is obvious to anyone who knows me. And then I was told by this band of lunatics that what they decide can't possibly be wrong. When someone shoots off an enneagram theory, *ask for the source of their information.* Some of it is not enneagram theory, but personal theory from personal observations which of course include the observers own personal biases.
> 
> I have noticed another problem in trusting other people to type you. Say they get a few things right that you didn't put together yourself, well then many people are prone to believing the rest of what they say, as if they are an authority on you, or on enneagram (and many times they are not). So be critical of the information you are receiving. If it doesn't seem completely right to you then don't assume that it all has to be.
> 
> Also look at why someone may be trying to 'correct' your typing of yourself. Whats it to them, basically. Is it a helpful friend who knows you well and wants to see you healthy, or are they perhaps in it for ego. I have had a few admit that for them, having someone roll over and accept their diagnosis is quite a little boost. At that point, it becomes a game of tug-o-war, where you're trying to reclaim what you know of yourself, while someone else is trying to take that away. And sometimes their investment in your type gets a little creepy.. like, reading your things off the forums and sending it to their cohorts to read, and sharing personal things with a group. (I personally had this very thing happen and the IP addresses are logged to prove it - plus some personal messages that someone sent me, after acquiring them by ethically questionable means, but indeed I saw this go down, like it was some kind of game to haze and pigeonhole me on that forum that I mentioned at the beginning of this message. If anyone wants more information on that, PM me).
> 
> Anyway, my advice is this: understand the types thoroughly and take a good hard honest look at yourself, how you -_usually_- are.. -and- in some cases, how you usually were before you went through a lot of self-development (I think this really complicates it for some people because they grow and develop a lot, then they don't seem as entranced in their core as someone who is less developed would. Again, I speak from personal experience here.)
> 
> Another thing is to just forget the negative stereotypes associated with type. I can think of several common stereotypes that I can't identify with, that I see even those who claim to be very well versed in enneagram, accept as just a part of that type. You aren't going to identify with all of those, or even all of any profile on your type. I often see people say, 'well I don't agree with these coupla lines, so I can't be that type' -- the thing is, you won't identify with all of it but you will in time see which one you identify with -most-.


I would be willing to put out there the idea that fours, fives, and eights are super rare are ideas that they themself try to perpetuate beause it appeals to their sense of self? Especially fours. But fours fives and eights all tend to feel "alone" or in some way "seperate" than others... it wouldn't make sense to them to believe there is tons of other people just like them about. 
Just a theory ;D


----------



## RainSage

Nobleheart said:


> I don't like conflict, and I don't like it when I start it, but unfortunately I do it a lot, and I have a lot of difficulty backing down once I start it. I generally try to avoid conflict, but if it's going to happen, I will stand up for myself with whatever it takes to 'win' the conflict. Then later I'll feel bad about it.
> 
> Yes. This is why I'm so prone to getting pissed off and fighting back when conflict arises. I fight fire with fire, as it were.


I've been reading through these posts (in this thread) and I keep getting more and more focused on yours. The more I read the descriptions you tell of yourself, the more I think, "damn, this guy is just like my husband!" It's so weird to read through. Actually, I correct this, you describe yourself as I know my husband to be but, in online forums he comes off as the most placid, honest, respectable, intelligent LEADER with the uppermost regard for [____], that is, unless in a debate. In debate he is ruthless and arrogant.

At any rate, I noticed that you settled on the type 8. I'm cringing using the word settled because that would trigger my husband. The point is, I'm thinking he is actually a type 6 and I was wondering why you chose the 8 for yourself.

EDIT ---> "placid, honest, respectable, intelligent LEADER with the uppermost regard for [____]" I am not saying you come off badly, I am just trying to negotiate the discription for what he shows to other people. He has an unshakable confidence that seeths out of him and it is false, I believe. He even lies to himself but, I could be in error thinking he is a 6. God ... Wish I could say it all better :/


----------



## INTJellectual

Scruffy said:


> (Be wary, a 4w5 with a 5w4 fix, is a very, very, weird and uncommon type. You are probably not one)


So, I'm probably not my enneagram type because I have 4w5 5w4 combination? I'm still learning about this stuff. I have had always different results whenever I test enneagram. I haven't found my true EnneaType yet.


----------



## Tater Tot

the first couple of pages in this thread were a hot mess


----------



## Mooserapids

I hate to tell you this but you did hold up self honesty - I believe I am a true 5w4. I am not bragging and can't say I am grateful for Gods little gift. You say it is very uncommon and wierd. Well my life has been uncommon and pretty wierd. I did the Myers Briggs about 20 years ago. I don't remember the type but I do recall that the counsellor said my type was quite uncommon. You say all these people are mid-typing but how does one type correctly? Are some of the versions of the test not valid (garbage)? If so where can a trustworthy version be found? Thanks for your post


----------



## tanstaafl28

JungyesMBTIno said:


> The ultimate 7 stereotypes have to be Pollyanna or most Robin Williams characters out there, ROFL.


Pollyanna is the ultimate embodiment of a 2/1 or a 1/2. She is good and helpful and self-sacrificing. No WAY she's a 7.


----------



## tanstaafl28

Pollyanna is a 1w2 or a 2w1, maybe she's thinking of Shirly Temple's characters, who would more likely be a 7.


----------



## JungyesMBTIno

In retrospect, you might be right (although she seemed 7-ish in the Disney movie at times).


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Scruffy said:


> The Enneagram on PerC, is only now gaining some popularity. Yet, most people have a very small grasp of the theory (hell man, look at the type me threads). People are typing based mostly on descriptions, and even worse, *people are using tests as grounds for a type*.
> 
> _"I'm a unique snowflake, my process walks circles around your banana."_
> 
> - The mis-typings here are far stretching in terms of people, yet they stay to the same types: 4, 5, & 8. As a loose model of type-density per population:* types 8, 5, & 4 are the rarest Enneagram types*. If you are going around as one of these, I would heavily recommend re-assessing your type. To go around as a mis-type (no matter how cool you think it is) will inhibit yourself (in the eyes of the Enneagram). To focus on the unnatural in your personality, you will cause more anxiety.
> 
> - Types relating to the 3-6-9 group, generally make up* just over half* of the population. In second place, we have the 6-2-1 groupings. Most people, by far, will fit into these types. You are probably one of them (but I'm a snowflake!). No.
> 
> - The Enneagram deals with your motivations, actions are only secondary to motivations. No enneagram type will "lower" yourself, it's a fantastic starting point to truly look at yourself.
> 
> *Common Stereotypes*:
> 
> (I will give them some forgiveness for the mis-types, as good information of the Enneagram is lacking terribly. Most of the crap you see on it, is a mass of boolshit.)
> 
> Type 3: People see them as valley-girls, athletes, "superstars". A superficial, unintelligent mess of 1upmanship. It's far more complicated than that, don't limit your thought.
> 
> Type 4: Probably the most annoying mis-type I see, if you are into Art, Have Feelings, and have problems with people, you get thrown into the 4 boat (it makes me go "fuu"). 4's are an incredibly intense type, and incredibly vain. They romanticize the type, because it's what we do, they are "tragic". People use the type as a crutch for their problems, but you're limping on the wrong leg.
> 
> Type 5: Another grand mis-type, if you're intelligent and cannot shower, you are a 5. If you have a thought, or are considered somewhat logical, 5. Again, wrong stereotypes. Never assume because you are an INT/F that you are a 5, or a 4. 5's are a heavily detached type, and they have a strong power desire (oh wow, who wants power!?).
> 
> Type 6: Ugh, the type most people are, but nobody wants to be. They are so mis-represented by descriptions. They are seen as anxiety-ridden, sad sacks, who cannot function properly. 6's are a truly powerful Enneagram type, their thought covers all bases, and they keep people well. Being a 6 is a good thing, do not for a second, think that they are a weak one.
> 
> Type 7: People see em' as spastic, fun-loving, carnal embracing, caffine machines. They have a branching thought, (Think Ne), it's quick and expansive. They are the Jack-Of-All-Trades, the crutch of the 7 is escapism, they run inside their heads when something gets to be too much.
> 
> And, Type 8: Another gross exaggeration of a type, people assume if you "take no crap" "make descions" that they are an 8. Most of the behaviors associated to be "8"s are actually 6ish, and 3ish in nature. An 8 is a rough type, afraid of vulnerability, so they push. It's a lonely type, and you are probably a 6.
> 
> Final line on typing and stereotypes: (You are probably a 6, 2, 3, or 9, it's not a bad thing.)
> 
> 
> *Tri-Type Theory*:
> 
> Its a theory that takes a type from all 3 centers (Image, Head, and Gut/Presence) and put's them together to draw a clearer picture of a person. (it's still a personality theory, it's not you in a box).
> 
> Take ONE, of each.
> 
> Image types: 2, 3, and 4.
> Head types: 5, 6, and 7.
> Gut/Presence types: 8, 9, and 1.
> 
> You still have a core type, and it's your strongest, but how you deal with certain things can be associated with your tri points.*Remember, you cannot have a tri-fix point in the same group as your others. A [4]-[3]-6, [5]-[6]-8, [8]-[9]-2 are not possible in tri theory.* <- I put brackets over the repeaters.
> 
> Reminder: A shared wing with type is possible. I see a lot of people wondering, if 4w5, and 5w4 are possible points in a tri type. They are totally possible, along with 7w8, with 8w7. (also 1w2, and 2w1). In a sense, they would show one as a little more consistent.
> 
> (Be wary, a 4w5 with a 5w4 fix, is a very, very, weird and uncommon type. You are probably not one)


Bump.

Love this as much today as the first time i read it. Come back @Scruffy, or not. I think you would faint if you saw all the BS around these parts ;0)


----------



## Sina

adverseaffects said:


> I would be willing to put out there the idea that fours, fives, and eights are super rare are ideas that they themself try to perpetuate beause it appeals to their sense of self? Especially fours. But fours fives and eights all tend to feel "alone" or in some way "seperate" than others... it wouldn't make sense to them to believe there is tons of other people just like them about.
> Just a theory ;D


The rare types and common types bullshit hasn't and can't be backed up. I don't buy the 4/5/8 is rare nonsense. I never have. Nor am I in favour of assuming that anyone who types as a 4/5/8 is a 6, by default. *If anything, I have countered that knee-jerk reaction myself for a long time now.* Despite some exaggerated 'claims' from a few, I have typed 4 self-typed 4s as 6s (3 of whom now type as 6s) in about 6+ months and two self typed 8s as 6s, with neither currently typing as 8. And, I have typed several self-typed 6s as 7s, 1s, 3s and, yes even a 4 (I am quite sure this self-typed 6 is a 4w3, and I have communicated as such directly). Why do I mention this? Because when looking at your own type or someone else's, it's important to set aside bias and not make ridiculous assumptions based on unprovable and unproven statistics fabricated by some private forum or whatever other place. 

As @_Promethea_ noted, I have seen a few people from a certain private forum crash the 4 forum for example and tell them that many of them were mistyped (without their having solicited opinions, of course). I have also read silly oversimplifications like "8 is an inert type and 6s are reactive." Well, fuck, are 8s a fuckin noble gas? Jokes apart, 8, 6 and 4 are all reactive types that express reactivity in different ways and also have strong overlaps in places. I (and some others) have been making this point for a very long time now. 


I have also seen a lot of regurgitation of personal observations mixed with some bizarre projections presented as "theory". Having studied the Enneagram (classical Enneagram mind you not forum sub-culture 'Enneagram') for a while, I can tell you that some of this stuff is atheoretical nonsense. Whether a type is common or 'rare' is completely irrelevant to typing oneself or others. 


Here's a post I made on a thread, which is relevant to some of the points that have been raised here. It sums up my assessment of mistyping causes etc., based on a mix of mostly theory and some personal observations that I have attempted to keep as unbiased as possible. I want people to STOP with the nonsense about every self-typed 4/5/8 being a sniveling wannabe. It's about time. Yes, it's possible that they're a 6/3/7/1. But, it's unnecessary and disrespectful to jump to the assumption that anyone who types as these so-called 'rare' types is looking for a power/knowledge or uniqueness 'fix'. 




Boss said:


> Great thread topic.
> 
> 
> 1. I don't believe 4,5, 8 are rare types as much as they're widely misunderstood because of all the stereotypes and half-baked info. circulating around forums.
> 
> *
> Type 4:*_
> 
> If most people were to seriously understand what the type is all about, they'd likely not want to be a 4. There is, definitely, the crowd that thinks 4 is all about being an elitist lil shit who wallows in their misery and is the quintessential tortured artist. I am sure this "image" appeals to certain people, especially teens. I will accept that plenty of people, younger people especially, Type as 4s for this reason._
> *
> But, I don't think that everyone who mistypes as a 4 is trying to be 'cool'.* It's presumptuous to assume that every mistyped 4 is a superficial, ignorant wannabe. It's pretty easy to tell the "seeking to be part of the cool tortured 4 group" from the following:
> 
> *a)* People who genuinely have strong 4ish elements in their personality, and they're mistyping because peeling off layers of behavioural patterns, thoughts, feelings, attachment to how we perceive reality and ourselves, to get to the core is not a cakewalk. These people, usually, are mature, older and more open to a serious discussion. They are in it for learning, not flaunting a cool label. So, placing all mistyped 4s in the wannabe category is definitely silly.
> 
> *b) *People who do not have much in common with 4s, but misunderstand the type due to lack of significant research, availability of good material and introspection. These people usually respond well when helpful material is shared and sound reasoning is presented. Many of them are 6s, and even RH who have conducted plenty of research in their field, have concluded that 6s notoriously mistype as 4s and 8s. As for why, I'll answer if you ask. I don't want to lengthen the post, unnecessarily on this point. *It's notable, however, that not every mistyped 4 is automatically a 6. Some are 7s, even 5s (I've seen 5w4s with a strong wing, mistype as 4w5),some are 9s and so on.
> *
> *Type 5:*
> 
> _Again, 5 fills the isolated, iconoclastic genius cliche that appeals to the nerdy crowd lol , teens in the sciences (no joke) and again, others who genuinely have strong 5 elements in their personality. A lot of people don't realize that 5s drive for knowledge is a coping mechanism. It's a pathologically detached type that feels incapable of being a part of the outside world and engaging actively in it (it drains their "life force" so to speak, which is why 5s withdraw to the safety of their minds to keep from being intruded upon, to avoid being overwhelmed). There is a darker side to each of these types that a lot of people are ignorant about._ That said, it's presumptuous to assume that everyone who mistypes as a 5 is a wannabe.
> 
> *a)* There are people who associate their intellectualism, their love of knowledge with 5s and type themselves based on this. When a lot of people find out the motivation behind 5s drive for knowledge, they're able to see that they don't in fact use knowledge as a coping mechanism against an intrusive, overwhelming external environment, and they don't use knowledge as a means of overcoming feelings of incapability.
> 
> ----I know 3w4s who mistyped as 5s because of their field of work. For example, a cousin is a neurologist who typed as a 5 for a while (when I introduced him to the Enneagram). He has a cold, icy, extremely professional demeanour, and he has a strong drive for acquiring more and more knowledge. When I suggested 3 and he looked deeper into his motivations, he realized that he was seeking knowledge in order to validate worth (wasn't an easy realization for him), achieve success and be seen as successful (in his field, as in most fields, that requires high levels of competence and knowledge).
> 
> ----*Competency triaders can mistype as each other, without being sniveling wannabes*. Also, some 6w5s, especially those in the sciences or those that are researchers in any field, can mistype as 5s. But, the inner motivations don't match. Many of them, upon encountering good material and doing some introspection, will see that they're not 5s. It's not at all uncommon to see a Type 1 physicist mistype as a core 5. Intellectual 9s often mistype as 5s.
> 
> *Type 8:*
> _
> Phew! It's true that there are people, again usually younger people, who are attracted to the badass image of 8s. Many people, simultaneously, crap on people for mistyping as 8s because of these stereotypes, while barfing these stereotypes themselves. 8s are romanticized and glorified on forums like it's nobody's business._
> 
> * But, again, not everyone who mistypes as an 8 does it for a cool label. And not everyone who mistypes as an 8 feels "afraid" and is looking for a cool label to feel better. *It may be a true for some, but it is NOT true for a lot of mistyped 8s. *The statement also indirectly alludes to the possibility that everyone who mistypes as an 8, is by default, a cp6 trying to cover up their insecurity or whatever (because of course only 6s have insecurities). *
> 
> The thing is 8s also have insecurities and fears, because they're..human? Yeah. Now, for some specifics:
> 
> *a)* _*Other Id types and cp6s have a lot in common, at least behaviourally, with core 8s*_. The inner motivations and fears do not, however, match. A lot of mistyped people, who are mature and level-headed, when presented with good info. will recognize that they don't share the 8s core motivations.
> 
> There are those who will cling to 8 for dear life in face of contradictory information and sound reasoning (as opposed to the crap about giving off the wrong vibe etc. etc.). It's usually these people who are most resistant to suggestions of mistyping. cp6s with 8 fixes are usually very difficult to reason with, because they genuinely, have a lot in common with 8s, behaviorally. They can show the 8s counter-authoritarian streak, be lustful and aggressive (Esp. sx first), be confident and dominant. Over time, if they keep an open mind, they realize they're 6s. They also realize that doesn't make them less "powerful" than 8s. Though, as I said, cp6s aren't more likely than the 2 id types to mistype as 8s.
> 
> *b)* As I was saying, all mistyped 8s are neither 6s nor insecure lil wannabes who seek to validate their shaky badass-ness with a cool label. I have also seen male 2s mistype as 8s, as well as integrating assertive 5s--some of whom were older and mature, and least concerned with tacking on a label. It's not uncommon for confrontational, dominant and driven 1w2s to mistype as 8s, until they understand the type better.


----------



## kaleidoscope

@_Boss_

I can't thank your post enough. *This *is why I have grown to dislike this specific sticky intensely. 

"4, 5 and 8 are VERY rare types. You probably are not one."


----------



## Ellis Bell

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Boss_
> 
> I can't thank your post enough. *This *is why I have grown to dislike this specific sticky intensely.
> 
> "4, 5 and 8 are VERY rare types. You probably are not one."



Haha, I think we all probably lose perspective on here because to some extent we all have 5/4/8-ish qualities.


----------



## kaleidoscope

kasthu said:


> Haha, I think we all probably lose perspective on here because to some extent we all have 5/4/8-ish qualities.


Yeah I think so. IMO, it's because people are *most *likely to mistype as 4s, 5s or 8s that there's this overall impression of not many belonging to these types.


----------



## Sina

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Boss_
> 
> I can't thank your post enough. *This *is why I have grown to dislike this specific sticky intensely.
> 
> "4, 5 and 8 are VERY rare types. You probably are not one."


Yeah. It sets off to convey that stereotypes and misinformation cloud perceptions about Types which results in mistyping. This is a lucid observation. Then, it falls in the unproven "loose" statistics trap and all the flawed inferences that can be drawn based on these. 

__________________________________________________________


I am going to talk about my own experiences with this whole self-typed 8 is a 6 deal :laughing:. @_Promethea_ has dealt with her share of crap for the _offense_ of typing as a 'rare' type, as she has mentioned earlier, on another forum. 

Long back when I joined and was very new to the Enneagram, I decided to create a thread aimed at figuring out how the other fixes in a tritype were arranged (as in what order). I typed as an 8-3-5 back then.Since I was still new and didn't mind an open-minded discussion, I proceeded to tell this 'typer' my thoughts on my typing. I am going to emphasize that my problem was not (and never has been) that I was being typed a 6 (that would be ridiculous, ignorant and typist), because I had nothing against the type. My problem was *"how"* I was being typed. 

To cut a long story short, these are some of the *problematic attitudes *I observed in her interaction with me :-

1. After asking me pointed questions about my childhood and history of abuse after I touched on this (which I answered), I was told that I was saying what I was saying to come across as an 8. 

2. When I grew impatient with the personal assumptions being made (and more that I'll touch on below), I was told that I wanted to slither out of the conversation because I had "*failed to prove*" that I was an 8. I didn't set out to prove anything, though I typed as 8 (and was confident it was my type), and was open to reassessing it with the provision of logical, theoretical insights, which were conspicuous by their absence. Furthermore, not one Enneagram source was linked to me. And yes, my self-reporting remained consistent throughout.

I did not enter the discussion to be pathologized or told (indirectly) that I was lying/embellishing to come across as an 8 because I felt "Weak" inside and needed a cool new label to feel better about myself. 


3. I was repeatedly told that I was a 6 because I was seeking "validation". By that logic, everyone who starts a typing related thread is a 6 in need of validation. Logic fail? Yes. Despite my limited knowledge, I could tell there were several loopholes in the comments (they didn't seem commonsensical at all in places, _*and research and reading I undertook in my own time proved them wrong on nearly all counts*_) That they were being conveyed in a petty, personal and disrespectful way, without any provocation on my end, was another issue. Finally, negative stereotypes were pushed around, and other baseless remarks were pulled out of her ass. _*

This poking/prodding to see what falls out style of typing is definitely unacceptable, and one that I haven't observed here on Perc in a very long time. *_
Anyway, the thread was only 5.5 pages long, because I decided after a point that it was going nowhere. But what happened afterwords was interesting. A couple of people started following me around and rudely intercepted discussions to tell me I was a 6 lol. I had fun encounters on good ol' perc chat, where I was told that I was a phoney and needed to '*drop my act'.* Why? Because I typed as 8 (coming from people who were not 8s but had mistyped as 8s themselves in the past). LOL! 

Petty bullshit, insecurity and hypocrisy are oh so adorable, I tell ya. I was contacted by someone from this lovely lil private forum. And this person told me that they "knew all about me" and made some intrusive and odd remarks that didn't make sense. Why? Because I once typed as 8. It's like a whole bunch of people got severely butthurt and lost their shit because I typed as 8? 

_*
There's more to the saga. It gets more interesting from then on as harassment and breach of confidentiality enter the picture *Curious? just send me a PM*.*_


*Conclusion:* And, so, Boss decides to (with 2 other co-creators) create a goddamned questionnaire to bring structure (rationality etc.) to the typing process. And, believe it or not, things are a lot better now than they were 2 years ago. I have done what I could to change the sub-culture from one where people were being typed by vibes (and harassed over 'vibes' and 'energy') to one where people quote Naranjo, Palmer and Maitri and are, usually reluctant to pull out total baloney out their ass, because they know that they will be corrected promptly by someone or the other who knows what they're talking about. I am glad I had something to do with these changes.

Countless people make threads about what Enneagram books to read, and just as many ask me this in private. I have done my best to dispel common E-myths as well as negative stereotyping of all 3 superego types. The majority of people don't mistype because they're fools in search of cool labels. *They mistype, in large part, because of a lack of credible information. *

As I said, I know what Type harassment looks like very intimately. I have experienced it myself, though at a smaller scale than some others I know very closely (one was cyberbullied and harassed for an extended period of time). What I can tell you is that parading information aimed at telling people they're mistyped because they're looking to "fix" 1. their weakness 2. their insecurities etc. etc. is presumptuous and ludicrous.


----------



## Tater Tot

Boss I just love you so much ;-;


----------



## Cassieopeia

Nobleheart said:


> Exactly. Showing that they are easily affected by things would reveal weakness that could be exploited or leveraged. While 8s are compelled by impulse, their drive to be in control quickly teaches them how to choose their battles to ensure moving from a position of strength whenever possible. There is no point in fighting a losing battle, and the drive of an 8 is to win / be in control.
> 
> 8s have an assertiveness that moves in their own direction until something gets in the way, at which point they react assertively.
> 
> 
> 
> Somehow I missed this earlier.
> 
> Yes, I agree.
> 
> I had similar issues with initially learning Enneagram. I had originally tested pretty clearly as an 8 on a few online tests, but the initial description sounded not much like me at all. I read a few other descriptions that sounded more like me... 2 because I care about people, 1 because I'm an idealist, 9 because I prefer to be in a harmonious environment with people getting along, even 4 because I'm a creative type.
> 
> However, when I read deeper into the motivations they were all *way* off.
> 
> The 2's passive aggressive motivations were nothing like me. I don't care if people return my favors. The most I'm looking for is some mild appreciation for it. If people don't appreciate it, I'll just cut them off from my favors without thinking twice - and certainly without trying some stunt to guilt trip them into feeling the way I want them to about me. No skin off my nose.
> 
> The 1's self loathing for failing to meet their own standards, and the inner frustration just isn't me at all either. I strive to be a good person, but the rest of the mechanisms that come with being a 1 are just not there for me. I *really* don't care about the 'rules' if they're even hinting at getting in the way of what needs to be done. Most of my childhood was spent being in trouble for refusing to follow 'rules' that made no sense and benefited no one.
> 
> 9 was actually a really close description for me until I read about their reactions. 9s shut down in the face of disharmony, and give in to maintain harmony. I have the opposite reaction. I've been described by more than a few people as "the most stubborn person I've ever met" - really unlikely for a 9. While I love harmony, if something is destroying it, I'll get really irate and up in the face of whatever is causing it. This is entirely self defeating, but if there isn't going to be any harmony, then I'm going to be the biggest strongest person in the fight so we can get back to it. I have 9ish inclinations and sensibilities but don't have 9 mechanisms (which I later found out to be caused by my 9 wing).
> 
> While the 4s traits about being artistic and creative were accurate - as I'm an artist by trade... the envy thing completely lost me on the 4s. I don't even understand envy, to be honest. It makes no sense to me. The closest I ever got to envy was being inspired by something someone did or had, in a "Cool! I'm going to figure out how to do that" or "Neat! I'm going to make/get one of those" way. I don't envy but I do admire, and am likely to be inspired to 'up my game' if I see someone outperforming me. No surprises that I have a strong competitive streak, but again it's not envy. I don't care what someone else has, and very much want people to have and be the best that they can. I compete with myself just as much as my peers, always trying to one up myself.
> 
> So, once this pattern became clear, I went back to 8 and found out that their motivation is to avoid being controlled or weak, and all the mechanisms stem from there. Spot on. The typical description of how 8s act don't apply to me very well, but the description of their motivations and why they do what they do is exactly me. No exceptions. I'm pretty sure the discrepancies stem from my being an ENFJ (possibly INFJ) which manifest those motivations in different priorities than other MBTI types more typically associated with type 8. Dr. Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and a few other similar historical figures have been associated with INFJ and type 8 - and these people pretty radically defy the typical type 8 description despite fitting the motivation set to a T.
> 
> End result, yes, I agree that the introduction to Enneagram should be changed to focus on the motivations of each type since these are the essence of those types, then followed by descriptions of how people of those types might manifest those motivations.
> 
> 
> So to re-rail back to the original topic...
> 
> If my 8w9 side is my base motivation, I'd need some help to decide upon my head and heart motivations. My initial instinct would be to assume that my head is 6w5 or 5w6 and my heart fix is 4w3, but I could see others applying as well... Is there any way to do this other than just assume? I'd think that the base type could cause a pretty strong filter.


Your part about 9 sounded just like the description of a 9w8. That's my second type. I value peace highly, but the 8 in me drives me to fight for it. 9w1s are much more laid-back. 9w8's are stubborn and will be confrontational to get peace the way they see fit.


----------



## Scruffy

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Bump.
> 
> Love this as much today as the first time i read it. Come back @Scruffy, or not. I think you would faint if you saw all the BS around these parts ;0)


To be honest, I've given up on the Enneagram community here, I represent some sort of crusty old miser who rarely supplies useful insight. There's a new generation of Enneagrammers here that regard me as such. I'm apathetic towards mistyping here, as I've lost interest in preaching to an empy room. Users like Boss generally backhandedly attack my posts (indirectly and discretly of course) and my theoretical approach to the Enneagram. Which in turn, close discussion via hivemind between us. I simply do not care anymore to speak about the Enneagram here, I just focus it internally now.


----------



## Sina

Scruffy said:


> To be honest, I've given up on the Enneagram community here, I represent some sort of crusty old miser who rarely supplies useful insight. There's a new generation of Enneagrammers here that regard me as such. I'm apathetic towards mistyping here, as I've lost interest in preaching to an empy room. Users like Boss generally backhandedly attack my posts (indirectly and discretly of course) and my theoretical approach to the Enneagram. Which in turn, close discussion via hivemind between us. I simply do not care anymore to speak about the Enneagram here, I just focus it internally now.


I just noticed that you _mentioned_ me. I don't know how much of what I have to say will be taken in the right spirit, but here it is-

We have different approaches to the Enneagram, that much is obvious. I disagree with you on some points, and I disagree with a certain approach to mistyping that I have seen you and others take in the past. But, I don't and have never considered you an old miser that has nothing of value to add to Enneagram conversations. From what I have seen and understood, you had put in your time and effort into educating the forum about the Enneagram back when it was very new and perhaps not even considered very credible by members. 

Fwiw, it's not personal. My criticisms have not been disrespectfully and personally directed. Just earlier in the thread, I had acknowledged that your OP made a lucid observation. It's a difference in opinion and approach. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I will say that I'd still appreciate reading your insights around these parts. It's possible that these different approaches we take to the system are reconcilable, or at least, may converge at an interesting point or another. Whether you discuss the E here or not, it's entirely up to you. All I can say is that, disagreements notwithstanding, I am not keen on deriding your thoughts just because they come from a different "school".


----------



## mushr00m

Scruffy said:


> To be honest, I've given up on the Enneagram community here, I represent some sort of crusty old miser who rarely supplies useful insight. There's a new generation of Enneagrammers here that regard me as such. I'm apathetic towards mistyping here, as I've lost interest in preaching to an empy room. Users like Boss generally backhandedly attack my posts (indirectly and discretly of course) and my theoretical approach to the Enneagram. Which in turn, close discussion via hivemind between us. I simply do not care anymore to speak about the Enneagram here, I just focus it internally now.


Scruffy, you are so, so wrong. Where have you been? I mean I have hardly seen you round these quarters for quite a long time, a lot has happened here, a lot of developments have been made and well im quite insulted that you have made such a flippant comment that isn't even true on a general basis. There arn't as many mistypes as there were about a year ago, its a big difference. @Boss and others have put in a lot of time and effort into improving the questionnaire which hasn't been an easy job, yes there's been drama but its been something that we in the community have learnt from and built something more constructive and positive as a result. I mean, its not like you have been forgotten about or whatever, you are still a valued member of the forum but only if you want to be.


----------



## voicetrocity

mushr00m said:


> There arn't as many mistypes as there were about a year ago, its a big difference. @_Boss_ and others have put in a lot of time and effort into improving the questionnaire which hasn't been an easy job, yes there's been drama but its been something that we in the community have learnt from and built something more constructive and positive as a result.


I wanted to quote this because I feel it's so true, and deserves to be promoted as such. I've noticed the decline in drama (not that it lasted that long in the first place). But, I know there have been people who have worked really hard to try and make the enneagram section a better and more welcoming place for everyone. And I think their efforts should be commended.

I just wanted to say I've noticed the difference as well.


----------



## Sina

voicetrocity said:


> I wanted to quote this because I feel it's so true, and deserves to be promoted as such. I've noticed the decline in drama (not that it lasted that long in the first place). But, I know there have been people who have worked really hard to try and make the enneagram section a better and more welcoming place for everyone. And I think their efforts should be commended.
> 
> I just wanted to say I've noticed the difference as well.


One major reason the 'drama' has died down was because I made it a point to emphasize that ALL typer/typee differences or whatever should remain between the parties involved and staff, not turned into a forum wide circus as some had done. It's counter-productive and cheapens the pertinent issue of type harassment. 

Another major reason the drama has died down is because trolls like DJ have been banned. Much of the drama revolved around people, who were actually stirring shit, violating forum rules, insulting and goading others, and had people call them out on their trolling nonsense, not chasing him and others like him around in a 'witch hunt'. Though, irresponsibly victimizing people who troll and harass others, of course, makes for a gut-wrenching sob story. *eye roll* Admin. action was taken against them, and now that the shit starters are gone, obviously people are focusing on worthwhile discussion on the 8 forum. The general atmosphere of the E-forum changed ever since the first questionnaire was created by 3 of us forum members, and a couple of other people put time and effort into really discussing theory, dispelling myths and negative stereotyping, and drawing emphasis away from vibes and 'energy' reading. People from a certain forum don't frequent these parts (esp. the 4 forum, where they called many people mistypes) much, which has also contributed to a decline in drama. 

Another member and I had been in talks with the admin privately, for a while (long before the whole thing was blown out of proportion and turned into a public farce, with people taking potshots at some non-abusive individuals and making exaggerated claims), about the type harassment deal, instead of turning it into theatrics and gossip. Among other sincere efforts, it's lead to some very important changes in the forum rules as far as type harassment goes. So yeah, things are a lot better here than they were back when I joined.


----------



## Tater Tot

this thread is so exciting. :crazy:


----------



## dfoster

Don't want to stir the pot any further but I have been wanting to respond to this thread properly.

Here's my take: what was previously considered status quo has been rejected by a more sophisticated audience. 

It's basic psychology. This goes for any culture and society. In the beginning, when things are chaotic and knowledge is scarce, people are willing to listen to any "authority" without scrutiny and criticism. They're willing to put up with a little abuse to get any bit of "wisdom" because they need it. They know it could be inaccurate but having some security is better than having no security. The authority adopts the posture of "*I'm wise, elite and exalted. I provide discernment for you peasants*."

But the *misconception *here is that the people are the type that will put up with *abusive treatment*. The abuse includes intellectual abuse where the authority forces people to accept its point of view without any reasoning and simply dismisses theirs. When in reality, they only put up with it to get something from the source. When they become more informed and wiser, they phase out the old authority. It's the same way a provisional government is voted out after the chaotic period is over. 


The old authority taken aback because it did not see reality for what it was:


Scruffy said:


> To be honest, I've given up on the Enneagram community here, I represent some sort of crusty old miser who rarely supplies useful insight. There's a new generation of Enneagrammers here that regard me as such. I'm *apathetic *towards mistyping here, as I've lost interest in *preaching to an empy room*. Users like Boss generally backhandedly attack my posts (indirectly and discretly of course) and my theoretical approach to the Enneagram. Which in turn, close discussion via hivemind between us. I simply do not care anymore to speak about the Enneagram here, I just focus it internally now.


It seems one can dish it out but *cannot take it* 



Scruffy said:


> The Enneagram on PerC, is only now gaining some popularity. Yet, *most people have a very small grasp of the theory* (hell man, look at the type me threads). People are typing based mostly on descriptions, and even worse, people are using tests as grounds for a type.
> 
> _"I'm a *unique snowflake*, my process walks circles around your banana."_


Check out the condescension and the mocking tone in the above excerpt. It reminds people where they stand in their lowly place  Btw, "the theory" has never been identified and expanded on, it is what it is because the wise man says so 




> - The mis-typings here are far stretching in terms of people, yet they stay to the same types: 4, 5, & 8. As a loose model of type-density per population:* types 8, 5, & 4 are the rarest Enneagram types*. If you are going around as one of these, I would heavily recommend re-assessing your type. To go around as a mis-type (no matter how cool you think it is) will inhibit yourself (in the eyes of the Enneagram). To focus on the unnatural in your personality, you will cause more anxiety.


Where is the source for "*types 8, 5, & 4 are the rarest Enneagram types*"? What study? who conducted it? in which manner? what was the size of the sample? None of this was even bothered to be mentioned. It's an intellectual insult and a profound lack of respect for the audience. It's like a dad talking to his children.





> - Types relating to the 3-6-9 group, generally make up* just over half* of the population. In second place, we have the 6-2-1 groupings. Most people, by far, will fit into these types. You are probably one of them* (but I'm a snowflake!). No.*


Again, the same statistic pulled out of the sky (or where the sun doesn't shine.) Check out the tone in the last statement: reminding in you in no uncertain terms that "*you are nothing!*"  




> *Common Stereotypes*:
> 
> (I will give them some *forgiveness *for the mis-types, as good information of the Enneagram is lacking terribly. Most of the crap you see on it, is a *mass of boolshit*.)


Wow, "forgiveness" for our sins, the leader is not only wise but merciful. Who the hell is in the position of forgiving people on an Internet forum? I cannot fathom how this tone was not even challenged. This is why the perception that we are the type that puts up with this abuse.




> Type 4: Probably the most *annoying *mis-type I see, if you are into Art, Have Feelings, and have problems with people, you get thrown into the 4 boat (it makes me go "fuu"). 4's are an incredibly intense type, and incredibly vain. They romanticize the type, because it's what we do, they are "tragic". People use the type as a crutch for their problems, but you're limping on the wrong leg.
> ...
> 
> Type 6: *Ugh*, the type most people are, but nobody wants to be.


The exalted is annoyed, we are in trouble now 




> . Being a 6 is a good thing, *do not for a second, think* that they are a weak one.


That looks like a commandment from his highness. Don't you dare think a certain way 




> And, Type 8: Another gross exaggeration of a type, people assume if you "take no crap" "make descions" that they are an 8. Most of the behaviors associated to be "8"s are actually 6ish, and 3ish in nature. An 8 is a rough type, afraid of vulnerability, so they push. It's a lonely type, and *you are probably a 6.
> *
> Final line on typing and stereotypes: (*You are probably a 6, 2, 3, or 9,* it's not a bad thing.)


Who dare go against this final ruling?  We are what we are because he says so. He gives us our identity. He doesn't need to mention authors, studies, books, sources. Hell, he doesn't even need to meet you or talk to you, he already *knows *you. His *omniscience* is undeniable. He is the ultimate source He is The Source 





Scruffy said:


> I think you have a *loose grip* on the Enneagram, and *you're counter-phobic is showing.
> *
> The centers unify three types, each of those three types relate to a main emotion of the center. Again with the blender, you're seeking a liquid mess I can feed to an infant.
> 
> 
> Other than a very basic description of the Enneagram, this paragraph is nothing more than *word vomit and pretty frills.*
> 
> ...
> , all I saw from you was *word-vomit*. I'll admit the *bullshit *is a bit rough to sift through (it's like *Taco Bell* or something), relevance is key.


Respect for who he's talking to? treating him as equal? I think not. The poor guy is being *analyzed* in the middle of a debate because he dares disputing His Most Exalted, his counter phobic is showing  Again, this is not an exchange by two parties on equal terms. One has the power to impose on the other in this domain. 


But in the end the truth will always prevail, as darkness will always yield to light. 

I'd say we're in the beginning of something better


----------



## Sina

LOL, I realize I had never taken the time to read the OP in sufficient depth. :laughing:


----------



## Tater Tot




----------



## dfoster

Boss said:


> LOL, I realize I had never taken the time to read the OP in sufficient depth. :laughing:


I'm sure you have been forgiven by His Graciousness. Time to repent


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## RepairmanMan Man

Alright, guys. I am likewise not trying to stir the pot any further, nor am I trying to take sides. I am approaching middle age and have been through one life-and-death crisis too many (irl) to want to involve myself extensively in forum politics. But I'd like to put my two cents in here, nonetheless.

Basically, what you say in the quotes here, dfoster, is something that has bothered me since I got here. I was not ill-educated about the enneagram even when I arrived, but I did find the tone condescending on the following grounds:



dfoster said:


> Where is the source for "*types 8, 5, & 4 are the rarest Enneagram types*"? What study? who conducted it? in which manner? what was the size of the sample? None of this was even bothered to be mentioned. It's an intellectual insult and a profound lack of respect for the audience. It's like a dad talking to his children.
> 
> Again, the same statistic pulled out of the sky (or where the sun doesn't shine.) Check out the tone in the last statement: reminding in you in no uncertain terms that "*you are nothing!*"
> 
> Wow, "forgiveness" for our sins, the leader is not only wise but merciful. Who the hell is in the position of forgiving people on an Internet forum? I cannot fathom how this tone was not even challenged. This is why the perception that we are the type that puts up with this abuse.


I didn't say anything about it--from other forums I've been on, I am aware that many people out there know more about it than I do. I kind of came here in the name of self-discovery and self-exploration; reading the OP was probably more harmful than helpful. I understand it was likely written in response to immature folks who use these forums to play games (I've been around for just long enough to have witnessed a few of those) and that this forum has come a long was since then. 

So @Scruffy, I understand it was intended as a positive contribution and probably needed to be said at that time--but it had unintended consequences. After reading this post as a newbie, I felt embarrassed for even thinking I was a 4 or 5 (and yes, there are a multitude of reasons for that not related to me desiring to be "cool" or a "speshul snowflake". I frankly don't understand how 4 or 5 could ever be construed as "cool" in modern western society, but I felt embarrassed, even ashamed, at my mistype). Many of us are not denying issues or "focusing on the unnatural" when we mistype--it's an honest assessment of ourselves based on the limited information most of us have at our disposal. Some idiots use the types to create drama, yes, and I've seen it...but most of us are here for honest discussion and inner work.

And I've seen the ethos in the OP take root in the minds of others as well--people casually mention that 6s are the "most common type" which I've never seen any evidence of. People joke about "snowflakes" if someone has a different perspective than others of the type. I've seen--and even made--lots of jokes about "sixes in denial". After realizing that I am a 6 myself, I now find that a bit stinging. I legitmately have issues that center around 4 and 5. This is the only place on the internet or elsewhere that I've encountered these sentiments; I've seen them starting to percolate other forums as well.

I don't find the OP _abusive_, but I do find that these sentiments have become pervasive and might be doing more harm than good. I'm sure you're basing the information on research, and in response to immature people, but there's been a certain amount of drama around these ideas. I can't lie about that.

I definitely don't think of you as some crusty old miser with useless insights, Scruffy, but I feel my time to chime in here was long overdue. The OP and sentiments like it really have shaped the culture, and not always in ways I personally am comfortable with. I think you should know that, because I strongly sense I am not the only one.


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## dfoster

you're much nicer than I am. The guy needs an attitude adjustment no matter what the OP was intended to be. Treat people with respect and you'll be treated likewise.


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## kaleidoscope

@dfoster

I wish I could thank you post a billion times. That was beyond epic.


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## RepairmanMan Man

dfoster said:


> you're much nicer than I am. The guy needs an attitude adjustment no matter what the OP was intended to be. Treat people with respect and you'll be treated likewise.


Yeah, I read more of the thread after the OP. I think you're right.

But see, with me, if I point shit out, I get called "passive aggressive", "insecure", and/or "counterphobic". Needless to say, I'm also hiding behind my computer screen. I confess my 6-pussiness.

PS. I also only post after everyone else has. I need my "support" you know.


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## Sina

@_dfoster_

The post actually fades in comparison with some of the bullshit that I have seen around here and faced personally, for 'daring' to type myself as an 8 when I was new to the Enneagram deal. I have had my privacy violated, and faced other extremely disrespectful shit, all because I typed as an 8 once, and people disagreed. That I didn't troll anyone's ass or fuck with people, that I was just on a sincere personal journey was inconsequential. Back then, it was purely inconsequential. Proving I was a wannabe, a phoney, even a liar embellishing details of abuse to come across as a 'tough' 8 was more important.

I don't share this (and have only recently opened up with my own history of typing related disrespect and harassment) to stir drama, but to honestly communicate that I understand why certain attitudes are problematic, not only in theory, but because I have dealt with their impact personally. 

The sentiments expressed there (though, the basic premise that misinformation leads to mistyping is something I agree with), which I actually saw in action all over the forum 2 years back, was a major chunk of the reason I decided to come up with an actual questionnaire for typing, instead of telling people they were shitty wannabes looking to fix their 'insecurities' the second someone typed as a so-called 'rare' type, and put in my time to dispel negative stereotyping of superego types and the other two primary types. There's a limit to what people should tolerate, and I just can't sit around and take bullshit for long. I have an irresistible urge to act. Perhaps, my "counter-phobic" is showing as well:laughing:.

Instead of making things personal (if people, including OP, are expecting me to tag them 'directly' each time I criticize a certain 'school' of the Enneagram, that's not going to happen because it's a pointless waste of my time), I decided to work on influencing the culture around these parts. A lot of very positive changes have come out of the effort some people have put into this, so as you said, we're on to something better. 

It's interesting how my reaction to stuff in the OP is somewhat nonchalant in comparison to yours, because in a lot of ways, 2 years later, I have become somewhat desensitized to this stuff, and again, I hadn't really read it in depth/read through the thread. But, I will tell you that, be it irl or a forum, change is inevitable. As people become more informed, they will turn around and reject unfounded preconceived notions that cause more problems than they solve. 

@_holyrockthrower_,
You needn't explain your participation here by saying you aren't doing it for forum drama. No one that has recently posted here, is taking the step to address things, to 'cause' drama. When something needs to be said, fuck potential for drama, it needs to be said. Is my potential 1 fix showing yet? :laughing: 

I don't even see this as beating a dead horse, because as I see it, it's not personal. It's about the underlying perceptions and attitudes. It's an issue that has come up on the forums, and it'll keep coming up, if people don't address it honestly and objectively. My own stance on 'rare types' has been articulated earlier, so I won't repeat it. Rest assured, I, and I am sure others, are not going to assume you're trying to create drama, but that you're honestly speaking up, despite the potential for drama..drama that no one in their right mind cares to get involved with.

And, damn that Cassandra Complex woman!  If a 6 is pointing out a problem, it's got to be a mix of paranoia, passive aggression and insecurity! :dry:


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## Entropic

Scruffy said:


> Pretty damn rare.
> 
> Best I've seen for rarity of types: (most common to least)


What do you base that on? Is it on this site or something else?

I'm a 548 tritype. Rarity ftw? That speaks so much to my 4, FUCK YES. 

No but really, it's a very complicated type to be. You have no idea lol. You're constantly pulled into opposite directions and while my feeling of sense is stable, the way I appear can drastically change from one moment to another where I'm first cold and calculating, then next a drama queen or doing a combination of them and exploding with anger. I have the 8 need to see things as extremes. Things usually are or they are not. I have the 5's need for knowledge and the 4's need to be authentic. 

You do the math how that works out in practice.


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## Inguz

@dfoster I don't think that your interpretation is fully valid. In today's climate after @Boss have had her go on the jargon we have here the post is indeed out of place. But think about before that, the post is made in a way to use brute force to make people think, not be accepted as fact straight up and down. @Scruffy himself is a 3 (I assume you/he were this at the time of writing this thread as well?), so what do you think his ulterior motive has been? Now I can't go in to detail, because I disagree with parts of what @Scruffy writes, including how he applied the epithet rare to people at all. What is a rare individual? And in general, 4s are attracted to typology as they see themselves as flawed.

Now the point here isn't to argue facts back or fourth, it's just to say that while it's irrelevant today we would be very disrespectful in assuming that it was ill-intended like you suggest, @dfoster . You are supposed to feel something when reading that, because it will make you think about it, and he obviously succeeded in making You think about it.


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## RepairmanMan Man

@Boss thanks. 

I'm never quite sure when I state an opinion on divisive issues whether or not it's going to unnecessarily embroil me in an online debate I don't actually care that much about. I have no desire for that; I do not wish to play politics on PerC; I dislike "taking sides"; I do not value drama interjected into intelligent and compelling discussion. Based on various arguments I have seen in my time here, people are quick to take offense and sling mud at real or perceived back-biting, and--this is directed at whosoever reads this post--that's not my intent on this website. Hence my disclaimer.

You are right, Boss, about the "Cassandra Complex". For some reason, it's always 6s who get ulterior motives pegged to normal interactions. Speaking up? That's counterphobia. Tell someone off? Aggression masking insecurity. On another message forum, when I mentioned I could be quite domineering, in was directly implied that I was being "defensive"--rather than "the ability to command" being an inherent part of my nature, linked more to my big ideas and quick mind than any "reaction" to so-called threats. No one would call my sister a "dramatic four" or my step-sister an "arbitrary one" if I mentioned how controlling they both can be. I get tired of it.

And, in my experience, the OP gives me the same feeling, albeit over different issues. Sometimes, people really _are_ what they say they are, and sometimes we're not too proud about the parts of ourselves that resemble 4, 5, and 8. 

And moreover, I can tell you, it's not that pleasant to be crammed into the "common" category, especially when it's done in a condescending manner. It actually "cheapens" the types in question, in my mind, besides there being no clear evidence to that end.


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## Tater Tot

rofl but in all seriousness, I was put off by Scruffy's post at first too, but I think he was just being blunt. I'd love to see his response to your post though, @_dfoster_ :laughing: It seems like when this post was made there was so much confusion and he was trying to alleviate it a little bit, hence the aggression... even if the facts weren't completely accurate :tongue:

...don't yell at me lol :blushed: fsr I felt like I throw out there my interpretation of it


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