# ISTJ's and Porn



## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Quick question.. @_wiarumas_ and @_Sovereign_, would you care if your Wife/girlfriend viewed porn in private? I agree with most of what you're both saying, but I was just wondering if you'd feel the same way if it was the other way around.


Absolutely not. I don't care if my woman uses a 12" dildo in private. The only thing I care about are unavoidable, tangible consequences. For example, if the husband's constant porn use and method of masturbation left him chronically unable to achieve arousal to satisfy his wife, that's a problem. Likewise, if the wife's constant use of a 12" dildo leaves her unable to enjoy regular sex, that's a problem. 

However, so long as none of those consequences occur, WHO FLIPPIN' CARES? "I don't like it, it makes me feel bad" doesn't sit well at all in Te-land.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

wiarumas said:


> I find this and this whole thread to be pretty sexist as it completely downplays the nature behind why nearly all men look at porn and assumes that we think and have the same sex behaviors as women. We don't. It's easy to say as a woman, just don't look at porn or any women for the rest of your life or lose your family, but that's crazy talk to a man. Or a recipe for a serial killer or something.
> 
> Porn is not a need. The sex drive is the need. Porn quells the need. We cant help it and neither can 1 woman unless she was having sex with him multiple times a day and somehow I doubt the OP is that frisky. Men are not monogamous by nature but by mind and heart for lack of better words. Porn is an aid to prevent men from pursuing other options - cheating, spousal rape, strip clubs, prostitutes, etc. Its quick and simple; it's private self maintenance to remain sane. Also, I'm pretty sure there was research done to show that men get turned on by visuals (women were not), so it's no wonder that his imagination isn't enough... And there is a 15 billion dollar industry in the US alone supporting that men rely on visuals.
> 
> ...


So then men "need" porn, or they will go insane, and women just aren't as sexual? Yet the -thread- is whats sexist, right? lol!

Those links to cave drawings - I'm aware, and there is zero evidence that its anything more than art. The human body was once revered as something meaningful - now its like sexual fast-food for people to commodify in a cheap manner. Its not seen as spiritual, or meaningful.

While porn doesn't increase the likelihood a man will rape - it doesn't decrease the likelihood either. (Sorry but I have read a lot on this topic). Now what I have found is that it can shape a man's idea of what a woman should look like, and it can certainly turn him off the real thing. If you'd bothered to have read my links or any study on this, you could see that for yourself. 

Now, I will add that I'm not further derailing this thread with a debate on whether or not porn is ok. In the OPs opinion its not and I am here to support her and show her that shes not alone in this. IT IS acceptable to say its not ok. 

Whats right is not always popular, and whats popular is not always right - it is not compelling to me that 'nearly all men' use it. There are plenty of things that people do that are harmful to themselves. Its just that this one, they'll fight to the death over because their dopamine reward systems and orgasms are so tied into it that they don't even care about the studies that show how it negatively affects a relationship.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Sovereign said:


> And the flip side says "waah, I don't like that thing you're doing by yourself when I'm not around, so stop." Proving health is not the burden. The burden is proving it's not. I'm sure it does affect self esteem. Why? Because people are insecure. That's the real issue, not the porn, IMO. Address the insecurity and porn is a non-issue. Any problems with porn come from insecurity and need for control. You don't have a substantial problem with porn because you think an authority figure or a book told you to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I can agree that we are not going to agree. I'd like to see as many studies backing up how its healthy for a marriage, as how many back up that its UNhealthy for a marriage, ultimately. I really would.


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Yeah, I can agree that we are not going to agree. I'd like to see as many studies backing up how its healthy for a marriage, as how many back up that its UNhealthy for a marriage, ultimately. I really would.


And I would like to see you think for yourself instead of relying on outside sources that may or may not be completely full of BS. WHY is it unhealthy? No one can seem to answer that seemingly-simple question (except me, of course).

Edit: If you really want to have a source war, we can do that. But I'm assuming you don't. It'll just end up with both of us posting a bunch of crap, then arguing about why our sources are more legitimate than those posted by the other. Predictable...


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Quick question.. @wiarumas and @Sovereign, would you care if your Wife/girlfriend viewed porn in private? I agree with most of what you're both saying, but I was just wondering if you'd feel the same way if it was the other way around.


Yes, I would care. Because its in private and I'm not invited! We could turn it into a couple thing - but I digress, my wife says all male porn actors are ugly so it's a no go. 

No seriously, I already said its a trivial thing. I don't even understand how it could bother me? Our relationship is fine and I have nothing to worry about. Like another poster said, this may be hinting at another relationship issue and this is just how the insecurity manifests (like if its gay porn - she has a right to be mad then and it makes sense why it's upsetting and divorce worthy).


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Yeah, I can agree that we are not going to agree. I'd like to see as many studies backing up how its healthy for a marriage, as how many back up that its UNhealthy for a marriage, ultimately. I really would.


I don't have a study, but history and statistics showing that 9/10 men view porn. If those studies were true, there would be almost no successful relationships on the face of the planet.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

wiarumas said:


> I don't have a study, but history and statistics showing that 9/10 men view porn. If those studies were true, there would be almost no successful relationships on the face of the planet.


Try measuring how much of a happy, healthy, and deep romantic connection most "relationships" are.. and how about divorce rate statistics. Google porn + divorce rate. Here is but one example: Vicki Larson: Does Porn Watching Lead to Divorce?

How about the vast number of sexless marriages? (And though a lot of research blames actual porn addiction, its not always quite addiction for just a preference for it over sex.) http://www.relationshiptalk.net/my-...t-he-wont-have-sex-with-me-8630024/Page3.html Not good enough - google porn and sexless marriage. There are mounds of this stuff. 

Now, should women be forced to just accept it and adapt to it because its common? They're being cheated out of something better when a man is picking it over sex.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Is there any evidence that men in general think of pornstars when they're having sex? This seems to me to be wildly unrealistic -- or perhaps I have always thought my sexual partners were attractive enough not to have to think about watching people have sex while im having sex? 

This whole topic completely baffles me. Men use porn to jack off when they aren't getting any. It's a substitute. I don't know of anyone who would prefer porn to actual sex and I find the idea completely unrealistic.

As I said in another thread, disregarding all the other pleasures of sexual activity, _at the most base level_, your palm does not at all feel like a vagina.



Promethea said:


> How about the vast number of sexless marriages? (And though a lot of research blames actual porn addiction, its not always quite addiction for just a preference for it over sex.) http://www.relationshiptalk.net/my-...t-he-wont-have-sex-with-me-8630024/Page3.html Not good enough - google porn and sexless marriage. There are mounds of this stuff.


 One would have thought porn is a result of sexless marriages, not the cause.


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Try measuring how much of a happy, healthy, and deep romantic connection most "relationships" are.. and how about divorce rate statistics. Google porn + divorce rate. Here is but one example: Vicki Larson: Does Porn Watching Lead to Divorce?
> 
> How about the vast number of sexless marriages? (And though a lot of research blames actual porn addiction, its not always quite addiction for just a preference for it over sex.) http://www.relationshiptalk.net/my-...t-he-wont-have-sex-with-me-8630024/Page3.html Not good enough - google porn and sexless marriage. There are mounds of this stuff.
> 
> Now, should women be forced to just accept it and adapt to it because its common? They're being cheated out of something better when a man is picking it over sex.


And that applies to this situation how? How does any of this matter at all if the only consequence is the OP feeling bad? If that's what kills the marriage, porn is not the issue. Period. If there are porn-related TANGIBLE (I repeat, TANGIBLE) consequences, then the porn issue needs to be addressed. Seeing none so far....[obvious dangling conclusion is obvious]


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Promethea said:


> So then men "need" porn, or they will go insane, and women just aren't as sexual? Yet the -thread- is whats sexist, right? lol!
> 
> Those links to cave drawings - I'm aware, and there is zero evidence that its anything more than art. The human body was once revered as something meaningful - now its like sexual fast-food for people to commodify in a cheap manner. Its not seen as spiritual, or meaningful.
> 
> ...


I never said they need porn. I said its an aid, an outlet for sexual frustration.

I never said they'll go insane. I made a sarcastic comment in jest. I said they need to do something with that sexual energy. If he isn't getting it from his wife, then what? It doesn't just disappear. 

And yes, women and men have different sex drives. Equality means in rights, it doesn't mean we are the same biologically. It's not sexist to say we are different. It's sexist to refuse to acknowledge the differences and treat them with equal respect.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Is there any evidence that men in general think of pornstars when they're having sex? This seems to me to be wildly unrealistic -- or perhaps I have always thought my sexual partners were attractive enough not to have to think about watching people have sex while im having sex?
> 
> This whole topic completely baffles me. Men use porn to jack off when they aren't getting any. It's a substitute. I don't know of anyone who would prefer porn to actual sex and I find the idea completely unrealistic.
> 
> ...


In the instances where someone is denying someone sex repeatedly for a long enough amount of time - I don't have any arguments about looking to someone else. 

However, in my research, there are young, attractive women even, who are constantly trying to initiate sex, being turned down, then finding a partners porn stash/catching them using it a lot. In one of those links I provided there are examples. I read this a lot on the internet - how men start to use it and prefer it over the real thing. 

Porn Not Warm | Psychology Today

Men's Porn Use Linked to Unhappy Relationships | Women & Self-Esteem | LiveScience

Men Finding Fewer Women

anyway i don't wanna keep posting a ton of links. no ones going to read a million of them.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Anyway, my ideas have caused lots of derails with a debate at this point between me and men who don't want to have someone tell them porn can be harmful, and that was not my intention. I wanted to show OP that shes not alone in thinking its not a good thing, and that she has every right to ask her husband to give it up. I'm not going to continue to derail, so if you want to argue about it further, pm.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Is there any evidence that men in general think of pornstars when they're having sex? This seems to me to be wildly unrealistic -- or perhaps I have always thought my sexual partners were attractive enough not to have to think about watching people have sex while im having sex?
> 
> This whole topic completely baffles me. Men use porn to jack off when they aren't getting any. It's a substitute. I don't know of anyone who would prefer porn to actual sex and I find the idea completely unrealistic.
> 
> ...


While I agree with most of what you said, it can actually turn into a real problem through desensitization when a person rehardwires their brain to want porn instead of sex. It can happen. 

As to the OP, yes, it is dreadful that your partner broke a promise (if he actually did, we still don't really know for 100% certainty). But, a lot of men just want to get off sometimes and porn does help. I know that if I use it instead of my imagination I'm more satisfied, personally speaking. 

Also, I've read a few stories on here that said it's healthier to masturbate when you just want to get off rather than have sex with your partner. They said that eventually their partners just started to feel used and expendable. 

*quick disclaimer, I'm not in a relationship nor have I ever been in one and I do not have a problem with porn*

Rather than say that your husband can't access porn, why not compromise? I think it was actually @Promethea that said this in a different thread a good while ago, but, why not make a porno of yourselves for private use? Then it's not him getting off to another person but him getting off to the both of you. It would take a lot of trust but, the way I see it, you already have his baby inside of you so....

Compromise ftw?

That's my advice anyways.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

I dont know if the OP has been run off by the bickering or not, but I'd just like to say this to her:


This is your life. Regardless of what the people here have to say, you don't owe them anything. I think that you need to make the decision that is best for you since you are the person who will have to live with the consequences in the end. First and foremost, I think you need to make 100% sure he is still apart of the porn website or else all of this will have been for naught. Then I think you need to weight the pros and cons of each path and pick on and take it. If you can stick it out, then do so. If not then walk. But at the end of the day you do not have to justify your choices/feelings/beliefs to anyone here. Were just anonymous people on a forum.


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

When you explain to your partner what your dealbreakers are and why and an agreement is made that said dealbreakers will be avoided, and then one person continues to indulge in them (in a secretive manner no less), you have every right to be upset and want to end the relationship. It's a matter of respecting your partner and their wishes at the onset of a relationship and deciding what you can and cannot accept. This is why it's important to build a relationship on a foundation of respect and by going against what has been deemed acceptable is showing a lack of respect. Whether or not someone finds something "trivial" or not is irrelevant - it matters to your partner and therefore it's important, and if it's not something you're willing to compromise on, then you should find someone else who will.

OP, you've explained your concerns to him and why. Men are not some all-encompassing mass that have a hive-minded attitude towards sex and relationships and some are more than capable of looking beyond stereotypes and social constructs when it comes to dealing with their wants and needs.


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Try measuring how much of a happy, healthy, and deep romantic connection most "relationships" are.. and how about divorce rate statistics. Google porn + divorce rate. Here is but one example: Vicki Larson: Does Porn Watching Lead to Divorce?
> 
> How about the vast number of sexless marriages? (And though a lot of research blames actual porn addiction, its not always quite addiction for just a preference for it over sex.) http://www.relationshiptalk.net/my-...t-he-wont-have-sex-with-me-8630024/Page3.html Not good enough - google porn and sexless marriage. There are mounds of this stuff.
> 
> Now, should women be forced to just accept it and adapt to it because its common? They're being cheated out of something better when a man is picking it over sex.


Correlation not causation! Nearly all men look at porn so any statistic with men will correlate back to porn. 

All the men who died of cancer looked at porn. Call the presses!

I bet if you did a study on men in happy relationships (which I could tell you the results of being a married man with dozens of friends who are happily married), that they too, look at porn.


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

Promethea said:


> However, in my research, there are young, attractive women even, who are constantly trying to initiate sex, being turned down, then finding a partners porn stash/catching them using it a lot. In one of those links I provided there are examples. I read this a lot on the internet - how men start to use it and prefer it over the real thing.


That's like saying there are alcoholics so no one should drink. 

If it's causing the problem in a relationship, of course it should be addressed. But OP said nothing about an infrequent or unsatisfying sex life.


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Also, I guarantee that any sexless marriage has a guy looking at porn. It doesn't mean it's the cause of the sexless marriage, but he sure as hell is going to look at porn or worse if he isnt getting any.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Tula13 said:


> That's like saying there are alcoholics so no one should drink.
> 
> If it's causing the problem in a relationship, of course it should be addressed. But OP said nothing about an infrequent or unsatisfying sex life.


While porn and alcohol are both potentially addictive - that is the only thing they have in common. Alcohol isn't mentally cheating on your partner.


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## UnderGroundKingz (Sep 3, 2012)

lv1987 said:


> I really need some advice on how I should approach what I found on my boyfriend's iPod. I'm 5 months pregnant with our son and we had been looking at nursery ideas using his iPod a few days ago. We never closed out the page so this morning I went to go look at them, but accidentally hit mail instead of internet. Up popped this open email from a porn website of which he is apparently a member. I checked iPod and he hadn't looked at anything using that device, but did clear out the history on his Kindle Fire last night which now makes me suspicious. I've talked to him before about how I don't like it when he looks at porn and how it makes me not want to have sex with him because all I can think about is who he is imagining is in bed with him and I'm completely turned off.


Let's be honest here. You probably didn't "accidentally hit" anything. Chances are you went snooping, looking for something to get mad about. You're here looking for people to tell you have the moral right-of-way so you can feel justified in becoming more controlling. That whole thing with the Kindle is just going to make you more paranoid.

To the last part of this paragraph, that's a normal worry, and I'd consider it valid. If you believe that porn is hurtful to your relationship (a shockingly large amount of people here do not agree with this belief) you need to address the matter and be willing to negotiate. Ultimatums lead to resentment. (I'm making the assumption that you don't want him to resent you; however you may not care.) I'm not saying to let him go around watching porn, I'm saying once you find out why he is looking at porn, be willing to do something about the problem.

The problem doesn't have to be "OmG h3 i5 @dd1ct3d 2 pr0n." like some people here would have you believe. It could be that he wants to have sex more often than he does. You mentioned you're pregnant and sometimes pregnant women have reduced sex drives so while you are feeling satisfied with the amount of sex you're having he may not. Also, he may not feel comfortable having sex while you are pregnant, for a variety of reasons, and finds a release through porn. Now he may be addicted to porn, but Occam's Razor would state to first choose a option that doesn't involve making so many rash assumptions.



lv1987 said:


> Basically I can't stay with him if he keeps looking at porn because I know that throughout the years I'll probably find more and more and my anger and resentment will just build till I finally can't stand him anymore and one of us leaves. If I wasn't pregnant I would just leave already, but I feel that I'm obligated to stay and try to work things out for our baby. But I also feel that it would be unfair to stay if this keeps happening because then our child will have to go through breakup. As an ISFJ I have a really hard time being confrontational. I just need some advice on how I should approach this without making my ISTJ boyfriend feel like I'm threatening him but also put it in a way where he understands where I'm coming from.


Regardless of what happens, if you two don't end up together the child is going to have a hard time. So if you truly think that leaving is an acceptable option here you should do it. However, if you two do split there is always going to be a possibility that the child will find out the real reason why you left his dad. At first you may be able to get away with telling him "He did things I found irreconcilable" but kids only get smarter with time, and it won't be long before he is asking why his father did those things, or what exactly it was that his father did. Also, if he ever does figure out the reason for the split, there is a chance that either you or your baby daddy (or the two of you) are in for a butt load of resentment. (Once again, I am making the assumption that you don't want your son resenting you, or his father. However, once again you may not care.)

Finally, don't use your personality type as a way to cop out of something you find difficult. It has to be one of the stupidest applications of MBTI I have seen yet.

So my recommended course of action is: You should say what you found. Apologize for snooping through his things. Then try to figure out why he does it, and fix that problem.


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

Promethea said:


> While porn and alcohol are both potentially addictive - that is the only thing they have in common. Alcohol isn't mentally cheating on you partner.


Thought-policing your partner is never a good idea.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Promethea said:


> no one can point to one reason porn is healthy other than "I'm selfish and my cock likes it. Whaaaa don't take it away!"
> 
> .


This is exactly the kind of reasoning I was posting about above.

It's not about men & porn in general, it's about this couple. Their obligations to eachother and what they consider worth deciding-- autonomy, following the others needs-- what they are willing to compromise-- are the issue, and it plays out in all kinds of relationships, romantic or not, over issues other than porn. 

If the wife doesn't want her spouse watching porn, she has the choice to enforce that by leaving/make it an issue, or compromise. If the husband doesnt' want to stop just cause hsi wife wants him to, it's his choice to stay his ground or compromise. They aren't really that different from eachother. The opinion on porn is subjective. In order to stay around, the other may have to make a choice they wouldn't do otherwise, allowing the viewing of porn or accept not viewing porn due to wife's demands. Whether or not we think that's fair isn't the point, it's just individual choices. I was just suggesting that the girlfriend re-think if it's worth it to her to leave just cause of porn because from a lot of perspectives, it's not that bad.

I'm kind of confused by how you say "but men sneak around", "men act like it's a need"-- why is this about men and woman as supposed to someone who just likes porn and someone who doesn't want their spouse to view it? 

Once again, lots of women view porn & lots of men don't. the issue is about compromise or not being willing to, which is a decision that will have to be decided by the individual.

Obviously porn is not a "need" to men, that's obvious, and if men were going around saying it, that's silly, the point is that just cause it's not a need doesn't mean someone views it as negatively as say their spouse does & is willing to take the same views on every issue their spouse does.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Tula13 said:


> Thought-policing your partner is never a good idea.


Most people can agree that a such thing as an emotional affair exists, and though they might not act on it physically, it would still hurt. Now it only exists in the mind, yet even "normal" average people could agree it sucks. 

A desire to kill your friend could exist only in the mind, even though you might be too scared to act on it -- now as that person's friend, wouldn't you probably want out of the friendship as a result of just that thought? 

I read a post by one of the men who was deliberately picking porn over his wife, and his reasoning was this: "They're just younger and hotter than her." I don't think many women would be comfortable with that thought, and they should be made aware of the fact that they can no longer hold his attention sexually so they can find someone who is going to be in a more fulfilling relationship with them. Now his -story- could be "I'm just not in the mood/tired/low sex-drive." Is it thought policing to find out that a partner who says hes just not into sex, is using porn regularly, and call him out on it?

Thoughts matter. Emotions matter. Its not simply actions that matter. Someone can go through all the right motions and feel very little of what they claim to - and people do this in relationships a lot, imprisoning the oblivious partner in a false reality. An example of an even worse scenario - a partner who is gay and using you as a cover (happened to my high school friend's sister).

Heh, "thought policing?"


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

Promethea said:


> Most people can agree that a such thing as an emotional affair exists, and though they might not act on it physically, it would still hurt. Now it only exists in the mind, yet even "normal" average people could agree it sucks.
> 
> A desire to kill your friend could exist only in the mind, even though you might be too scared to act on it -- now as that person's friend, wouldn't you probably want out of the friendship as a result of just that thought?
> 
> ...


You're right that picking porn over sex with a spouse hurts the spouse. But finding another person attractive? Imagining having sex with someone else? That's natural and normal and hurts no one.


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## MBTI Enthusiast (Jan 29, 2011)

Tula13 said:


> Imagining having sex with someone else? That's natural and normal and hurts no one.


Wow, that must be the most incredulous thing I've read so far in this thread. I believe in emotional and mental affairs, even if you apparently don't (or just don't care? Not sure, I'm at a loss for words...)


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

MBTI Enthusiast said:


> Wow, that must be the most incredulous thing I've read so far in this thread. I believe in emotional and mental affairs, even if you apparently don't (or just don't care? Not sure, I'm at a loss for words...)


An affair takes two people. People have control and autonomy over their mind to think about what they want in the privacy of their own brain. Thinking about stealing something and actually stealing something are two completely different things. And finding someone else attractive and cheating on your wife are two completely different things.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

For me, porn is not cheating, except in cases like what the OP where there is a clear understanding that it is not okay. I feel like porn is so prevalent that it should be stated outright if it is okay or not. As far as the people I dated, none of them have cared that I watched porn, and some of them watched porn themselves and I knew someone that thought it was cute when I said it would be "cool" if we could watch a certain type of porn together and reenact some of it (I did not date her, although we were emotionally close). As far as dating, I was honest what I masturbated too, but I would do it when my partner was not around and/or busy ... otherwise I let my partner know how much I wanted her (even if we did not have sex, I craved that intimacy). To me, sex or not, the intimacy is important. To me, cheating is not about the sex, it is about the intimacy (and betrayal of trust). So sex, phone sex, and cyber sex are all cheating to me. But I know that my partner is probably going to see other people as being physically attractive and that is okay, she can even think they look better than me, just as long as she is attracted to me more than anyone else, including "imaginary" people (I am demanding ), and loves me for me, I am okay with that ... And if she wants to watch porn that has "hot" guys and people doing thinks that I am uncomfortable doing (that she likes), then that is okay with me. .. Yes, you have less "freedoms" in a relationship, but I want someone I can trust, be intimate with, and be a lifelong companion ... and I don't want there to be too many rules/"control" on them ... That is my take anyway.

That being said, if someone promises something to me and I thought it was very reasonable and it is important to me ... I would feel betrayed and I would want to talk to my partner about it and find out why then betrayed me and then decide on what to do. ... I think communication is important.




Tula13 said:


> Thought-policing your partner is never a good idea.


I agree with this, although I would add that beliefs and feelings matter. ... What I perceive my (imaginary) partner to believe and feel about me matters to me. ... Thoughts, to an extent are kind of uncontrollable (many just pop into my conscious, but I choose which ones to keep thinking about) and I would like to think my thoughts are the one place I can be free. I would like to have freedom to think and to wonder without consequence.

And, although I'm "free" to believe and feel however I want, I accept that that does and should affect other people that are very, very close to me and vise-versa (If I love someone and they feel hurt, then I will hurt ... If I love someone and they are "legitimately" furious, I mean I think it is understandable why they are mad at me, with me, then I will hurt)


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Most people can agree that a such thing as an emotional affair exists, and though they might not act on it physically, it would still hurt. Now it only exists in the mind, yet even "normal" average people could agree it sucks.
> 
> A desire to kill your friend could exist only in the mind, even though you might be too scared to act on it -- now as that person's friend, wouldn't you probably want out of the friendship as a result of just that thought?
> 
> ...


Well again there is a huge disconnect. When men view porn, there is zero emotional involvement. It's simply a device to get off. Take away the porn, then there are the Victoria secret magazines in the mail, a beautiful woman in the park, a milf from a children's show. At what point will the paranoia of straying thoughts be controlled to allow the spouse be secure in the relationship?

The example about the man choosing porn is stupid. No reasonable man would prefer his hand over the real deal no matter what images were flashing in front of his face. It's no comparison. Their relationship has bigger issues than porn. It's a scapegoat. There is a reason I married my wife and I never forget it. It would have to be some REALLY good porn to tear me away from that love. (Sarcasm if you didn't catch it - no porn is that good)

Your ideas are your own and look good on paper, but how are they in practice? Are you married? What does your spouse/partner think of the no looking at other women under no circumstance rule?

We already got @Enfpleasantly and my opinion from healthy, successful marriages and sex lives that there are no trust/security issues associated with porn, but I'd be curious to hear more. I'm also curious if porn is the final catalyst sparking underlying relationship issues or if porn is the cause. To me, these men saying porn stars are better than their wives are already in crappy relationships. Yanno, that false reality that you mentioned. If they aren't happy, they aren't happy. Taking away porn isn't the solution because their relationship sucked to begin with.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Sexlessness in a marriage is a symptom of a much deeper issue. Some men choose porn over their Wives, and some women refuse sex with their Husbands to masturbate alone. The problem lies with the couple...He doesn't love her anymore if he would rather masturbate than be with her, and She doesn't love him anymore if she would rather masturbate than be with him. I've referenced this site before, and I'll do it again...go ask these thousands of people what they think the problem is: 

I Live In a Sexless Marriage | Group with Personal Stories, Forums and Chat


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

I just want to say that this is definitely a personal preference issue. There is no right or wrong answer, only the answer that works best for the couple. If OP has always made it known that she wasn't ok with porn, then he should honor that. If he is unhappy and felt that warranted a break in their "code", then he should speak up. They need to talk, they both need to listen, and they both need to decide what to do. Best of luck to you OP.


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## sorry_neither (Mar 21, 2012)

Promethea said:


> Anyway, my ideas have caused lots of derails with a debate at this point between me and *men* who don't want to have someone tell them porn can be harmful, and that was not my intention.


Uh, I saw at _least_ two women in this thread disagreeing with you...

The whole framing of the pornography issue as "men vs women," on both sides, is ridiculous. Lots of women watch porn (google "James Deen" some time).

I don't even want to touch the whole "fantasizing about other people is the same as having an affair." Christ. Smothering, much?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

sorry_neither said:


> Uh, I saw at _least_ two women in this thread disagreeing with you...
> 
> The whole framing of the pornography issue as "men vs women," on both sides, is ridiculous. Lots of women watch porn (google "James Deen" some time).
> 
> I don't even want to touch the whole "fantasizing about other people is the same as having an affair." Christ. Smothering, much?


My actual debates before I posted this were as I described, and you don't get a free shot at insulting me and calling me smothering. Now if you have anything further to henpeck me with - PM it (like I -said-). This thread wasn't supposed to be a debate thread.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

wiarumas said:


> Well again there is a huge disconnect. When men view porn, there is zero emotional involvement. It's simply a device to get off. Take away the porn, then there are the Victoria secret magazines in the mail, a beautiful woman in the park, a milf from a children's show. At what point will the paranoia of straying thoughts be controlled to allow the spouse be secure in the relationship?
> 
> The example about the man choosing porn is stupid. No reasonable man would prefer his hand over the real deal no matter what images were flashing in front of his face. It's no comparison. Their relationship has bigger issues than porn. It's a scapegoat. There is a reason I married my wife and I never forget it. It would have to be some REALLY good porn to tear me away from that love. (Sarcasm if you didn't catch it - no porn is that good)
> 
> ...


Since you clearly won't abide by my request to not further derail - whatever: A person can fuck someone with zero emotional involvement too and thats considered cheating. Whats the big difference between the fantasy of it, and just skin touching skin.

Skin? We shake peoples hands daily. No big deal..


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I do think that porn (esp. excessive porn use) can be harmful to a relationship. OP, I would agree with previous suggestions that you share relevant literature with your husband and calmly discuss his prior commitment and promise. Tell him how his choices hurt you, affect your self-esteem or whatever negative effects you've had to deal with. Be specific. 

I am not a fan of snooping at all, and I sense some trust issues on your end. How much of it has to do with his porn viewing (from what you've said so far, I am going to assume he watches porn on and off and isn't a porn addict because that's a whole another can of worms) and how much has to do with pre-existing insecurities on your end is something only you can know. 

As for breaking up over porn (again, assuming no addiction is involved), that sounds like a bit much as you have a child on the way. Yes, your husband should have done his best to keep his promise. But, you can't jeopardize your child's relationship with its father over something that can be resolved through calm, rational discussion or even counseling. Breaking it off with him over this sounds incredibly impractical, in your situation, and controlling to me, assuming he is, otherwise a good partner. Also, not to be presumptuous, though I would certainly advise you against using the unborn child as a point of leverage in this discussion. I've seen it happen in comparable scenarios a few times; it doesn't end well. Try to be calm and honest; avoid ultimatums. I am sure, with both parties being equally invested in the relationship, a solution can be found.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Lol. I watched porn today, but I kept thinking about my partner. Yup, he is just that good that thoughts of him protrude. True story.

If he ever put limits on me or what I watched, that would definitely destroy things between us. I'd definitely run in the other direction. But the fact that I'm allowed to be a free agent and figure out _for myself_ what turns me on and what doesn't, makes him even hotter to me.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> Lol. I watched porn today, but I kept thinking about my partner. Yup, he is just that good that thoughts of him protrude. True story.
> 
> If he ever put limits on me or what I watched, that would definitely destroy things between us. I'd definitely run in the other direction. But the fact that I'm allowed to be a free agent and figure out _for myself_ what turns me on and what doesn't, makes him even hotter to me.


What the fuck did this post add to the discussion other than to inflate your ego? Surely bragging about watching porn, how great your lover is, and how amazing your relationship is does nothing for this woman or her situation. 


But typing this had nothing to do with her correct? It was all about you. Oh silly ass me. I guess we all can't be as awesome as you. :dry:


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> Lol. I watched porn today, but I kept thinking about my partner. Yup, he is just that good that thoughts of him protrude. True story.
> 
> If he ever put limits on me or what I watched, that would definitely destroy things between us. I'd definitely run in the other direction. But the fact that I'm allowed to be a free agent and figure out _for myself_ what turns me on and what doesn't, makes him even hotter to me.


Exactly the same for me.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Chipps said:


> What the fuck did this post add to the discussion other than to inflate your ego? Surely bragging about watching porn, how great your lover is, and how amazing your relationship is does nothing for this woman or her situation.
> 
> 
> But typing this had nothing to do with her correct? It was all about you. Oh silly ass me. I guess we all can't be as awesome as you. :dry:


is this sarcasm?


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> is this sarcasm?


No. Its not. It seems as though you may have seen the benefit of this post and I have not. Did it offer advice to the OP? Does it sympathize with her situation? Does it introduce a point that everyone else hadn't before considered? The answer to all of these questions is no. So like I said, what was the point other than to brag? 

She basically said: "Look at me, I can do it. I'm awesome. I watched porn today and it was great! My lover is amazing. Nan nan na boo boo." 

That was it. So, if you saw the point, outline it for me. But from what Ive seen from pink, she has a habit of using threads like this one and the one about the woman who gained a whole 12 pounds as her platforms to brag about her awesome life and how great she is while offering nothing to the OP but a "get like me" when the people who post the threads probably already feel like shit. 

So I stand by what I said. What was the point, other than to brag?


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Chipps said:


> That was it. So, if you saw the point, outline it for me.


Pinkrasputin is in a relationship where trust & respecting the person's personal autonomy fosters MORE sexual arousal for their partner. In this case, ceasing to attempt to control your partner & police their personal activities is sexier & more effective than attempting to block all other sexual resoucres, cause fact of it is we are going to have those kinds of thoughts anyways. It also points out that when viewing porn, Pinkrasputin is transferring those feelings she views of sexual pleasure to her partner. Pinkrapsutin didn't say her relationship is inherently good or their sex is so great, she made these statements in reference to the personal freedom she feels in her relationship to view porn if she wishes & how that makes her respect her mate, which is very relevant.

This points out several things to me, in example form, that I think would be useful perspectives to the OP:
-A relationship is stronger with trust & freedom
-Porn is not necessarily a betrayal or cheating
-The act of trusting your partner & respecting they make their own choices can make them even sexier & you sexier to them
-the act of trying to control your partners sexual outlets (or other activities) may destroy your relationship
-relationships are therefore based more on mutual respect as opposed to imposing limitations & values on one another

and it also addresses the argument going on the thread by other by implying:
-not only men watch porn
-porn is not necessarily cheating
-it is not always detrimental to a relationship or personal self-esteem/sexual ability


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

I don't think thinking about having sex with someone is considered cheating. No one can control their thoughts all the time. Porn isn't cheating, either. 

There has been a lot of spurious logic flung about this thread and links to articles from less than reputable sources. Just because something is posted on the Internet doesn't make it true, especially blogs, as the goal is to get more hits. Writing an article with a popular opinion on a hot button topic is a sure way to do that. I respect that there are probably more articles out there from better sources, though. I would need to read them to decide if I agreed and that their argument is logical and valid.

i think the basic issues for the OP are trust and insecurity (maybe a tad of controlling behavior thrown in). Porn didn't cause them.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Siren_

Yeah, porn isn't cheating to me either lol. Porn only becomes a problem, in my life, when porn addiction is involved. These are my 'values'. My partner watches porn sometimes; though, when I am around he doesn't watch it at all or we watch it together when we do. OP's values are quite different from my own. One of the key points here is that he consented to the condition of not viewing porn, and he is now going back on that 'promise' or so OP thinks based on the email she chanced upon. This is also concerning. I see trust issues, insecurity and some controlling behaviours. The "controlling" part is from the lens of a person who doesn't care as much for occasional porn viewing. For a person who finds porn viewing absolutely intolerable and has made it clear, in fact made the relationship conditional on this, it's obviously a big deal (big enough to warrant the end of the relationship). In her circumstances, with the kid on the way, she has a responsibility to trying to make it work for the child's sake. This is her So's responsibility as well. It's why I say that as long as both parties are interested in making this work, it's quite doable. Marriages go through far worse shit than this. 

To break it off over alleged porn watching (based off an email), when you're expecting a child together and assuming the guy is a decent partner otherwise, strikes me as incredibly absurd and impractical. So, I encourage OP to try and work this out instead of contemplating ending things. Her understandable resentment notwithstanding, given the terms were made clear to him early on, the child deserves better, and this couple can surely resolve this with effort and commitment. Based on the info. shared, the situation is nowhere as hopeless as OP seems to have made it out to be.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> Pinkrasputin is in a relationship where trust & respecting the person's personal autonomy fosters MORE sexual arousal for their partner. In this case, ceasing to attempt to control your partner & police their personal activities is sexier & more effective than attempting to block all other sexual resoucres, cause fact of it is we are going to have those kinds of thoughts anyways. It also points out that when viewing porn, Pinkrasputin is transferring those feelings she views of sexual pleasure to her partner. Pinkrapsutin didn't say her relationship is inherently good or their sex is so great, she made these statements in reference to the personal freedom she feels in her relationship to view porn if she wishes & how that makes her respect her mate, which is very relevant.
> 
> This points out several things to me, in example form, that I think would be useful perspectives to the OP:
> -A relationship is stronger with trust & freedom
> ...


Bullshit. You're acting like this person is pinkrasputin. Shes not. Her beliefs, feelings, interactions with her marriage are different but that was obvious just by reading the OP. So if that was obvious just by reading the OP what how does a "be like me" post benefit her? Like I said, it doesn't. It was a brag post. Plain and simple. It wasn't the first time she's done it and I'm sure it won't be the last.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Chipps said:


> Bullshit. You're acting like this person is pinkrasputin. Shes not. Her beliefs, feelings, interactions with her marriage are different but that was obvious just by reading the OP. So if that was obvious just by reading the OP what how does a "be like me" post benefit her? Like I said, it doesn't. It was a brag post. Plain and simple. It wasn't the first time she's done it and I'm sure it won't be the last.


You're the one who's inferring a "be like me" attitude. All she did was post an example from her life. Seems like it just upsets you that it's a positive one.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> You're the one who's inferring a "be like me" attitude. All she did was post an example from her life. Seems like it just upsets you that it's a positive one.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

lv1987 said:


> I really need some advice on how I should approach what I found on my boyfriend's iPod. I'm 5 months pregnant with our son and we had been looking at nursery ideas using his iPod a few days ago. We never closed out the page so this morning I went to go look at them, but accidentally hit mail instead of internet. Up popped this open email from a porn website of which he is apparently a member. I checked iPod and he hadn't looked at anything using that device, but did clear out the history on his Kindle Fire last night which now makes me suspicious. I've talked to him before about how I don't like it when he looks at porn and how it makes me not want to have sex with him because all I can think about is who he is imagining is in bed with him and I'm completely turned off.
> 
> Basically I can't stay with him if he keeps looking at porn because I know that throughout the years I'll probably find more and more and my anger and resentment will just build till I finally can't stand him anymore and one of us leaves. If I wasn't pregnant I would just leave already, but I feel that I'm obligated to stay and try to work things out for our baby. But I also feel that it would be unfair to stay if this keeps happening because then our child will have to go through breakup. As an ISFJ I have a really hard time being confrontational. I just need some advice on how I should approach this without making my ISTJ boyfriend feel like I'm threatening him but also put it in a way where he understands where I'm coming from.


I wish I knew what to say about this one. Every couple has to work this stuff out themselves. 

When my wife of 13 years, and I first got together, we established our guidelines about what we would accept and what we wouldn't. I also took her to the sex shop and let her pick out some toys. I knew there would be times where I might not be able to take care of her needs, and I wanted her to be satisfied. She knows I look at porn. I don't do it because I am in any way dissatisfied with her. We both have individual needs, then we have needs we fulfill together. Where I am into the visual, she's into the words. I look at porn, she reads her erotic fiction (I even buy her some occasionally). We have an active sex life as well. 

I cannot convince you of anything. It's not my right. You have to find a way to work this out together. He may have needs you can't always meet. You have the same right as well. Draw your lines, but make sure you are not drawing them so narrow that you suffocate him. You may not have to dump him, he might leave of his own accord. 

Did I mention my wife is an ISTJ?


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

Lots of these posts including the OP need to be collected into a video entitled "Shit SJ's Say".

But anyway, there's a lot of naivety going on here on both sides of the issue.

Porn can be addicting and can distract from the relationship. So can video games, sports, model trains, Internet forums, motorcycles, and so forth. All are distractions and can develop into unhealthy fixations. If your partner is consistently choosing something that doesn't or can't involve you, that should be the prime message. That's what matters more than the content of the fixation. He looks at porn: So what? Does he spend enough time with you? Are you still having sex? Does he come when he's with you?

You might be hurt that he "broke his promise", but promising not to look at porn for most guys in our porn-drenched world is like promising not to fart. It might feel good to hear those words, and they might really be meant when they are said, but it's unrealistic and a form of emotional entrapment. 

People think about others besides their partner when they are having sex. Get over it. After the first few times we get bored with each other, and the mind wanders. This applies to women as much as men. This will happen with porn in his life or without. You don't want to know what goes through his mind when he's having sex with you, no matter who he is. Allow him that privacy. Trust me on this one.

That being said, porn is not harmless. I blame porn and excessive masturbation for the general weakening of masculinity in the civilized world. There are plenty of anecdotes I've collected from therapists, sex workers, and my own partners that point up the problem: Guys are living on a dopamine binge now, and the real thing can't possibly live up to graven images plus a kung-fu grip. So what's happening now is that there are 22-year-old guys who can't finish up with girls the ordinary way, but need to jerk themselves off--if they can stay hard that long. They are way too young to be suffering that sort of problem. The plus side of this phenomenon is that as porn has become more entrenched, rape has become less and less common. So I guess we need to choose as a society if we want our men to be impotent wankers or brazen rapists. Nothing is simple.




Promethea said:


> What did men do before porn? Have their balls fall off from chronic blueballs? It is possible to masturbate without porn and if porn is making his wife feel betrayed, its a no-brainer - give it up. If you "can't?" Well thats a problem.


There was never a time before porn. Do you mean Internet porn? Dearie: There's a birch forest outside of Flagstaff where many of the trees are carved with porn images dating back to the mid-1800's. The Venus of Willendorf was likely created as pornography. Greek vases. Graffiti in Pompeii. Monkeys trained to use cherry juice as currency quickly learn to use it to "buy" the chance to see pictures of other monkeys mating. Porn is co-eternal with our primate brains. Get over it.



Promethea said:


> While porn and alcohol are both potentially addictive - that is the only thing they have in common. Alcohol isn't mentally cheating on your partner.


Having suffered through an alcoholic marriage, I call bullshit on this. She preferred the comfort of the bottle. There was nothing she wouldn't share with it. They're still together, even though I keep her the hell away from me.


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## mrssummersmith (Dec 6, 2012)

its really not easy to just stop looking at porn. =/


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## Doden (Dec 4, 2012)

Promethea said:


> While porn and alcohol are both potentially addictive - that is the only thing they have in common. Alcohol isn't mentally cheating on your partner


You have lost all credibility to form an intellectually responsible argument. My best friend's father would beat his wife and would rather drink than come home. He fought to keep drinking, you cannot say that he will never think about alcohol ever again, she has to worry that if he ever comes home late if he's out with some woman or spending electricity money on liquor. Any outside stimulus that you put yourself to can become mentally addictive. The facts are there, the argument that you aren't seeing from the others arguing with you is that an extremely small amount of people get addicted.

Yes, we know, there are men that can't stop looking at porn and would rather masturbate than satisfy their wives. There are also men that have wives that will not have sex with their spouses for whatever reason. I didn't have sex with my ex for 8 months, never watched porn either. I wasn't cheating on her either, because my priorities were work, school, making sure I spent some quality with my dying friend, and of course my SO.


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## Hruberen (Jan 2, 2012)

Why I watch porn even in a relationship:

1. I'm horny and need a release
2. It is unfeasible to get sex from my partner because logistics, she's not in the mood, etc.
3. I can't get myself off without getting sore with out porn.
4. I don't want to get sore so I watch porn to get that more efficient release, and also porn gives me a third person view of sex that I would never be able to experience in reality.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Hruberen said:


> Why I watch porn even in a relationship:
> 
> 1. I'm horny and need a release
> 2. It is unfeasible to get sex from my partner because logistics, she's not in the mood, etc.
> ...


I read this and then your signature, so I have to ask....did you pass the September no fap challenge?


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

lv1987 said:


> I really need some advice on how I should approach what I found on my boyfriend's iPod. I'm 5 months pregnant with our son and we had been looking at nursery ideas using his iPod a few days ago. We never closed out the page so this morning I went to go look at them, but accidentally hit mail instead of internet. Up popped this open email from a porn website of which he is apparently a member. I checked iPod and he hadn't looked at anything using that device, but did clear out the history on his Kindle Fire last night which now makes me suspicious. I've talked to him before about how I don't like it when he looks at porn and how it makes me not want to have sex with him because all I can think about is who he is imagining is in bed with him and I'm completely turned off.
> 
> Basically I can't stay with him if he keeps looking at porn because I know that throughout the years I'll probably find more and more and my anger and resentment will just build till I finally can't stand him anymore and one of us leaves. If I wasn't pregnant I would just leave already, but I feel that I'm obligated to stay and try to work things out for our baby. But I also feel that it would be unfair to stay if this keeps happening because then our child will have to go through breakup. As an ISFJ I have a really hard time being confrontational. I just need some advice on how I should approach this without making my ISTJ boyfriend feel like I'm threatening him but also put it in a way where he understands where I'm coming from.


I'm sorry for your pain - you are really in a tough situation.

Yes, you are right to be concerned and to require accountability from your partner. Real transparency is key if this relationship is to work. That and counseling. Individual and couple counseling. 

If a man promises that he will stop looking at porn, but then goes back and views it again, there are real emotional problems that he needs to deal with, as he is not being honest with himself (lacking in personal integrity) which means that he cannot be honest with you.

It is very likely that the two of you have not delved into this issue as deeply as you will have to, if you are to ultimately put this behind you, but it is a very complex issue. And it is not just porn related (as @SlowPoke68 referenced), but can make itself known through various behaviors - most not sexual at all. 

Your real issue is likely fear of intimacy. Chances are that both of you are struggling in this area and that it manifests itself in different ways. For most porn users, they are addicted to the chemical high that masturbation provides - not porn. Assuming addiction, it's pretty easy to tell if you are addicted to porn as opposed to masturbation: Masturbation addicts stop viewing porn once climax is achieved, while porn addicts view porn just for the sake of the porn.

There are several problems related to the use of porn and it gets worse as time and use develops. You need to educate yourself about what is going on in your bf's brain when he is using porn and masturbation as an escape.

One last thing, ignore those that are claiming that you are being controlling or that you shouldn't give ultimatums. In relationships, these things are called boundaries and prevent you from being hurt. We all have them - even so called open relationships have deal breakers. You and your bf are certainly correct to have boundaries of your own.

HTH


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Doden said:


> You have lost all credibility to form an intellectually responsible argument.


Well feel free to stop addressing me with these insults.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

SlowPoke68 said:


> Lots of these posts including the OP need to be collected into a video entitled "Shit SJ's Say".
> 
> But anyway, there's a lot of naivety going on here on both sides of the issue.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of the points you made - but I still don't think that other addictions are as hurtful in a relationship as the one that invalidates a female partner's femininity. If he has a woman, why does he ignore her to get off to others? This will never ever make sense to me. Why bother being in a committed relationship - is it really just about torturing yourself by not acting on all these other horny urges? I get into a relationship because I fall in love, and I know I want that person and no one else. If other people are consistently sexually interesting, why even give the illusion that one only wants their partner? I guess everyone should just be in open relationships? Oh, but they aren't - and why? Because of natural jealousy, and being cheated on hurts most people. 

The naked images that you and others have spoken of have never been proven to be primitive fap material. The human body was used in art, you know. 



> So I guess we need to choose as a society if we want our men to be impotent wankers or brazen rapists.


Oh, so those are our choices? Somehow I don't think its that simple.



> People think about others besides their partner when they are having sex.


Many would disagree with this. I'm the nosy person who actually asks people instead of assuming that everyone is like me.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I agree with some of the points you made - but I still don't think that other addictions are as hurtful as the one that invalidates a female partner's femininity. If he has a woman, why does he ignore her to get off to others? This will never ever make sense to me.


Because there's only one of her, and she likely has one breast larger than the other, and some inconvenient moles, and stubble sometimes in the wrong places, and she goes on the rag once a month, and she has a headache or is ignoring him or is too sleepy, or she won't do anal or a facial, or he loves her dearly but without the lust he feels for others that he'd never choose as mates for longer than 15 minutes. There are too many potential reasons to list. And these are going to be indulged whether with visual aids or without. Masturbation exists because man's reach exceeds his grasp, and pornography is there to help.



Promethea said:


> The naked images that you and others have spoken of have never been proven to be primitive fap material. The human body was used in art, you know.


You don't say? If you can come down from the ivory tower now and then, you should read some scholarly works on the history of pornography. Sex drive is so central to what we are as creatures that we automatically want to see it in any images we create. You also seem to have overlooked historical references of artists creating things specifically for them to masturbate to. And I'm talking legit people like Picasso. The line between art and porn is exceedingly thin.




Promethea said:


> Oh, so those are our choices? Somehow I don't think its that simple.


I certainly hope not, but maledom has been trending towards a brotherhood of pimply wankers for the last 15 years or so, since broadband Internet became common. It will get even worse with the influx of mobile Internet devices.




Promethea said:


> Many would disagree with this. I'm the nosy person who actually asks people instead of assuming that everyone is like me.


That's true, you're presumptuous in your own way, and not just in terms of insistently violating someone's privacy to be reassured with lies.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

SlowPoke68 said:


> Because there's only one of her, and she likely has one breast larger than the other, and some inconvenient moles, and stubble sometimes in the wrong places, and she goes on the rag once a month, and she has a headache or is ignoring him or is too sleepy, or she won't do anal or a facial, or he loves her dearly but without the lust he feels for others that he'd never choose as mates for longer than 15 minutes. There are too many potential reasons to list. And these are going to be indulged whether with visual aids or without. Masturbation exists because man's reach exceeds his grasp, and pornography is there to help.


How very romantic. Your significant other must feel special.



> You don't say? If you can come down from the ivory tower now and then, you should read some scholarly works on the history of pornography. Sex drive is so central to what we are as creatures that we automatically want to see it in any images we create. You also seem to have overlooked historical references of artists creating things specifically for them to masturbate to. And I'm talking legit people like Picasso. The line between art and porn is exceedingly thin.


I guess the 18th century cum they scraped off the tree was the smoking gun in this case.



> I certainly hope not, but maledom has been trending towards a brotherhood of pimply wankers for the last 15 years or so, since broadband Internet became common. It will get even worse with the influx of mobile Internet devices.


Hm.



> That's true, you're presumptuous in your own way, and not just in terms of insistently violating someone's privacy to be reassured with lies.


Casually asking friends about their habits in relationships probably doesn't yield me any nervous lies. You're assuming that its only people who I date, that I ask? Human sexuality intrigues me. And from the anecdotes that I have collected overtime, not everyone fits the mold you claim - it just ain't that simple. : P


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

Promethea said:


> How very romantic. Your significant other must feel special.


My significant other is an evolutionary biologist. That's where I get a good deal of my material. 

Guys are going to jerk off, and if they see a twist in the trunk of a tree that happens to look like a vagina, it's probably going to set them off. And that's pornography of a sort. Hey, carve it a little and it looks even more like one. Hmm. I'll be in the forest for a while, dear!




Promethea said:


> I guess the 18th century cum they scraped off the tree was the smoking gun in this case.


No, just clear-minded rationality set free from Dr. John Kellogg-era shame and hand wringing. You ought to try it sometime.





Promethea said:


> Casually asking friends about their habits in relationships probably doesn't yield me any nervous lies. You're assuming that its only people who I date, that I ask? Human sexuality intrigues me. And from the anecdotes that I have collected overtime, not everyone fits the mold you claim - it just ain't that simple. : P


They are going to tell you what they want you to hear, because it's really none of your business.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

SlowPoke68 said:


> My significant other is an evolutionary biologist. That's where I get a good deal of my material.
> 
> Guys are going to jerk off, and if they see a twist in the trunk of a tree that happens to look like a vagina, it's probably going to set them off. And that's pornography of a sort. Hey, carve it a little and it looks even more like one. Hmm. I'll be in the forest for a while, dear!
> 
> ...


Evolutionary biology makes the mistake of assuming that every current human behaviour is rooted in biology, and it does not take socialization into consideration as an alternative explanation for certain behaviours. See my signature.

What you call clear-minded rationality is merely your observation that many men are superficial and dissatisfied with one woman, or real women.

Shame and hand-wringing? Its likely that you assume that I am a christian, or that I had a religious background or something. You make a lot of assumptions - about men, about humanity, about me. Taking time to address each one is exhausting because in the end, you are merely going to believe what you want: that all men are like you. My point is that not all men can agree on your rules of masculinity. And then you say that those who have told me that they aren't excessively horny for variety, exceedingly superficial, and dissatisfied are merely lying. Somehow I don't think you have the right to make the claim that you know all men in existence, and that if a man ever tells me hes not like you, then hes lying. 

And no, I did not have a religious upbringing, and I feel no shame in my sexuality. I had hippy parents who thought basically anything goes sexually, in their relationship. 

Now I could share my own personal experience but you would just blame it on me being _a woman_, or a _feeler_, or whatever you can come up with to further invalidate my experience, to claim that all experiences are like your own. 

I will just leave it at this: you are not the spokesperson for all of humanity, or even all men.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I will just leave it at this: you are not the spokesperson for all of humanity, or even all men.


I think I can agree that neither are you. 

My only claim to extra veracity are years of wisdom and open inquiry, and the clarity that comes from rising above the vestiges of moralistic umbrage you've demonstrated--regardless of where it came from.


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

I don't know - I think he did a pretty bang up job of summarizing what I attempted to say, but more eloquently. While not all men are that way, from my experiences as a male, having male friends all my life who openly talk about subjects like this, being in a fraternity in a single house with over 100 inhabitants, as a young adult who lived with single males, and as a married man with married friends, its pretty much true generally speaking.

And one interesting, somewhat side story. My wife's friends were over talking about children. The one had a kindergarten aged boy that she overheard him and his friends saying the legs of the one girl in his class makes their PP hard. They all couldn't believe at how young men start thinking about women sexually. Even more surprised to hear that some boys start masterbating before they finish elementary school.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

SlowPoke68 said:


> I think I can agree that neither are you.
> 
> My only claim to extra veracity are years of wisdom and open inquiry, and the clarity that comes from rising above the vestiges of moralistic umbrage you've demonstrated--regardless of where it came from.


Its not my "morals" that have allowed me to observe that not all men are biologically programmed to think photoshopped pictures are hotter than the girlfriend's "unsightly moles" for example. 

Morals have nothing to do with demisexuality either, for example. Its not always merely morals that drive a person to be capable of being satisfied with one person, or a real person. 

And I am skeptical of evo bio not because of morals, but because for too many people, the reality of what they experience doesn't match the 'scientific' theory. 

Human beings -are- more than animalistic instinct. They have a massive range of emotions, emotional depth, creativity, passion, rationality - and these things cannot be divided out of their biology with a scalpel pointing to where one begins and the other ends. Those things influence our experiences - in some more than others obviously. Explain demisexuals for example, people who aren't even sexually attracted to someone until theres a connection between them. Is it shame/morals making those people repress I suppose, these assumed constant superficial sexual attractions that you believe people experience constantly? I have seen no evidence that they have made a choice. 

And I wasn't going to bother, but now you have used "morals" to denigrate me, rather than playing the woman, or feeler card - and no, I am not going to allow my experience to be falsely labeled as merely one of morality. At no point in my life have I made a conscious decision to not find men like brad pitt attractive. It just never happened for me - and the experience of many other people who I have discussed attraction with at length deviate from what you have described.



wiarumas said:


> I don't know - I think he did a pretty bang up job of summarizing what I attempted to say, but more eloquently. While not all men are that way, from my experiences as a male, having male friends all my life who openly talk about subjects like this, being in a fraternity in a single house with over 100 inhabitants, as a young adult who lived with single males, and as a married man with married friends, its pretty much true generally speaking.
> 
> And one interesting, somewhat side story. My wife's friends were over talking about children. The one had a kindergarten aged boy that she overheard him and his friends saying the legs of the one girl in his class makes their PP hard. They all couldn't believe at how young men start thinking about women sexually. Even more surprised to hear that some boys start masterbating before they finish elementary school.


I have had men tell me that they go along with what their guy friends say often so they won't be taunted with accusations of being homosexual, or just be less accepted as one of the bros. Now in a group, they can whittle down their preferences, agree on whats hot or not for example, and those who may not agree will likely go along with whats being said anyway. 

Do boys masturbate? Uh yeah, sure.. but internet porn is shaping their preferences and overwhelming their dopamine reward system.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Its not my "morals" that have allowed me to observe that not all men are biologically programmed to think photoshopped pictures are hotter than the girlfriend's "unsightly moles" for example.
> 
> Morals have nothing to do with demisexuality either, for example. Its not always merely morals that drive a person to be capable of being satisfied with one person, or a real person.
> 
> ...


I haven't even begun to denigrate you. That insecurity you feel is just the ivory tower being shaken a bit.

To the rest of your response I'll only say this "Nahh . . . but that's the way to bet." 

And I'll let you have the last word . . . .


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

@lv1987

I'm sorry for the derails in your thread. Initially I wanted to support your position on not accepting porn, but I should have predicted that I would be dogpiled by people who support porn - per usual. Its widely accepted and rarely will you find a voice in the crowd that agrees with you. 

Anyway, its my fault that it got derailed because I couldn't resist debating. If you want me to clean the thread up, or if you want to start a new one - I will refrain from posting in it. If you want to PM me to talk about the issue, you are more than welcome. : )


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

SlowPoke68 said:


> I haven't even begun to denigrate you. That insecurity you feel is just the ivory tower being shaken a bit.


Don't flatter yourself dear. I have been outspoken about this issue for many years and I have had much more educated men attempt to smack me down so the mean lady won't talk about taking their pornoz away. ; P 

But, I suppose I could have misinterpreted you attitude toward me, fair enough.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

Before you approach him, try to calm yourself. Try to put it in perspective so he doesn't feel like you're attacking him. Nobody is perfect after all and there could be a misunderstanding going on here. Try to give him the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes with things like this, you just have to bite the bullet and spit it out in a very direct way. Direct does not always = hateful. May help to write out what you're going to say first to sort of monitor yourself from being mean (since you seem to be worried about that). Make sure you cover all bases when you communicate this to him. He might not understand right away. Give him time. Be considerate, understanding and patient. As of now, you are a team. Don't give up on your team mate. Good luck.


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## Robert Girghescu (May 22, 2012)

lv1987 said:


> I really need some advice on how I should approach what I found on my boyfriend's iPod. I'm 5 months pregnant with our son and we had been looking at nursery ideas using his iPod a few days ago. We never closed out the page so this morning I went to go look at them, but accidentally hit mail instead of internet. Up popped this open email from a porn website of which he is apparently a member. I checked iPod and he hadn't looked at anything using that device, but did clear out the history on his Kindle Fire last night which now makes me suspicious. I've talked to him before about how I don't like it when he looks at porn and how it makes me not want to have sex with him because all I can think about is who he is imagining is in bed with him and I'm completely turned off.
> 
> Basically I can't stay with him if he keeps looking at porn because I know that throughout the years I'll probably find more and more and my anger and resentment will just build till I finally can't stand him anymore and one of us leaves. If I wasn't pregnant I would just leave already, but I feel that I'm obligated to stay and try to work things out for our baby. But I also feel that it would be unfair to stay if this keeps happening because then our child will have to go through breakup. As an ISFJ I have a really hard time being confrontational. I just need some advice on how I should approach this without making my ISTJ boyfriend feel like I'm threatening him but also put it in a way where he understands where I'm coming from.


I may not be the oldest or the most wise when it comes to relation matters...but do you think that a man if it gets married or have children then he will never look on a porn site....society is based up on sexism nowdays...we live in the age where sex sells anything...if he is that type of addict that's another problem..but if occasionally he watches porn...it means for the most of the time that novelty lacks in your bedroom...


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> There was never a time before porn. Do you mean Internet porn?


Constant acces to a limetless variety of internet porn is completely different to other situations.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

626Stitch said:


> Constant acces to a limetless variety of internet porn is completely different to other situations.


Exactly. It ties into the Coolidge Effect.


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## Hruberen (Jan 2, 2012)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I read this and then your signature, so I have to ask....did you pass the September no fap challenge?


No I did not, I was in a non sexual relationship for the first half of that month, then she broke up with me.


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