# INTJ + ADD: The two headed Serpent



## TheMadHatter (Nov 14, 2011)

Hi everyone. Occasional reader, first time poster.

I wanted to know if anyone else had this two headed serpent of a combination. A spontaneous, creative core with an iron master and judge that always tried to beat it into submission. Lately they have reconciled, as I graduated college and got a job as an Art Director at a graphic design firm. ADD gets its creative freedom, INTJ gets its platform for constant improvement and observance.

It wasn't always like that though. I didn't know I had ADD until I was 20, and I went through hell trying to figure out what was wrong with me. Ever since 6th grade the INTJ master voice in my head had been giving me ultimatums: "If you get expelled from school, you must commit suicide". I couldn't concentrate on anything that I didn't care about, and lived very much in my own head. In 12th grade, Steve Jobs' Stanford commencement speech inspired me that I could do anything, yet I couldn't finish a book for class. This did not please INTJ. At the end of 12th grade, the gap between what I dreamed of doing and what I could actually do became so wide that I couldn't take it anymore. I saw a beautiful, intricate, complex, astounding world that I wanted to be a part of, but I felt I could never contribute to. I didn't want to live like that, so I slashed my wrists.

As you can see, I failed at failure. Though the next three days there was silence in my head, eventually the INTJ voice came back and it's first words were like a soft whisper, a friendly, nervous apologetic voice: "It's down the road, not across the street you jackass". Ever since then, the INTJ side has been more forgiving. When I found out that the side that INTJ had been referring to as "lazy, loser, failure" was actually ADD, it's as if INTJ immediately brought it out of the cold like an old friend. "Here's your medication", it said, "Here is the neurological imbalance. Here is the diagnosis. Read this, this, this and this. We finally have an answer". It might have been the beginning of true happiness. Now they are partners in crime. But my god it's been a fucking long journey.

My MO can be summarized in 2 sentences. "Chase what excites you, Extrapolate the Fundamentals". This seems to work very well. I once felt very, very guilty for not having the patience to learn fundamentals, but I'm noticing that I've never really missed out on anything because of it. Rather, I identify what is useful and exciting and reverse engineer the fundamentals from there. An example is in my job, I never learned graphic design, I just got a little too excited in illustrator one day. Now I get paid to do it, and I still don't really know the fundamentals, but I pick them up piece by piece as I go through the next crazy idea.

Here are two examples btw, one is an idea that my ADD side came up with and did in 30 minutes, and one is an idea that my INTJ side meticulously hammered out and perfected for 10 hours. Try and guess which one is which.

Personality Café is slapping me on the wrist for having 0 posts, so I can only post text links:
img696.imageshack.us/img696/7434/screenshot20111110at550.png
img840.imageshack.us/img840/673/neurohypeweb.jpg

The really funny side is that if you criticize the design that my ADD side made, it's totally fine. It's already moved onto the next idea. If you criticize the design I made in INTJ mode, I will fight and gnash and argue until you either see I'm right or give up. The mode I was in during the inception actually influences how I respond to criticism.

Are there any others like me? How do you handle it? What have you decided to do for work? How would you describe your MO?


PS: ADD insisted that I post the song that I was listening to while writing this. INTJ is reminding him of the promise he made to support the artists that he likes and pay for this album.

youtube.com/watch?v=pCB6D61LSCs


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm not doubting anything you are saying. 

...But nothing you said sounds like INTJ. At all.

You seem to have a screaming preference for Ne and Te. You are incredibly achievement oriented but with a kind of unpolished precociousness. The first thing that came to my mind was ESTJ (trying to figure out how to integrate Te and Ne). An INTJ with ADHD would be a very interesting person to meet. 

INTJs are not really detail people so much as they are system builders. Think Darth Vader (archetypal INTJ) from _Star Wars_. He himself is not going to hammer through the details, he's got henchmen to do that, he (presumably because of Ni or _The Force_) is focused on the chess match of the big picture. 

You really honestly sound like an ESTJ trying to figure out how to integrate Ne. You have to understand for ESTJ this is no easy task. The Te mindset is one that is expressly about external objective achievement. It is not uncommon, for example, for an ESTJ to really want to be an artist or musician but be conflicted or downright scared because of the potential for failure. So they opt to be bureaucrats or bankers or whatever more seemingly stable career they're stereotyped with (someone was saying that strippers are often ESTJ because of the perception of a way to achieve stable money and some semblance of job security). So you can imagine then the degree that ESTJ would beat themselves up if they did go after their passion and went through the inevitable failure that we must all go through in order to get good at what we love. That person retreats back into their dominant Te persona and flogs themselves for not being efficient or not thinking things through. 

Integrating Ne for a Te-dom is no easy task. It's similar to the Fe/Se guilt complex. Ne should allow Te to 'think outside the box' if well balanced, but it is something of a war for a while. 

That's just my read of what you wrote.


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## TheMadHatter (Nov 14, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. I just did the Test again, 4th time. I always get INTJ. 

Your Result: INTJ

Your Preferences:
Introversion (I): |||||||||||||||||| 71.88%
Extroversion (E): ||||||| 28.13%

Intuition (N): |||||||||||||| 56.25%
Sensation (S): ||||||||||| 43.75%

Thinking (T): ||||||||||||||||||||||| 93.1%
Feeling (F): || 6.9%

Judging (J): |||||||||||||| 56.76%
Perceiving (P): ||||||||||| 43.24%


As for "an INTJ with ADHD would be a very interesting person to meet", I'm right here. This is what I'm like. From what I understand INTJ's are always finding ways of self improvement, self criticism, have a thirst for knowledge and understanding. The only thing I'm detail oriented in is design, I become absolutely obsessive and down to the pixel. But everything else is far more general ideas, big picture thinking (the "I see a great big world and I want to be part of it"). Sorry if you were confused by that.

If it's any interest, my INTJ puts my ADD to the test, and sees what it can do. I once started my own art gallery, and helped run warehouse raves, just to see if I could do it. Those were my death star. I wanted to know if I could build one. Once I knew I could, my INTJ side began to trust that having ADD is an asset, not a liability.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

You may be an INTJ, just a somewhat atypical one. 

Here is a link about INJs and Ni. It helps to explain what I meant by big picture. Understanding Introverted Intuition (Ni) in INFJs & INTJs | Personality Junkie 

There are just a lot of places in your writing that seem to indicate a preference other than INTJ. Your pervasive insecurity regarding achievement really stands out. Here's the thing, introverts when there is an extraverted function causing insecurity, in your case Te, the person is likely to shut that out and rely on their dominant function (Ni) to lead the way. You seem to do the opposite. You seem to retreat back into Te (to prove if you can do something -- external and measurable -- is the big giveaway here as opposed to proving if my intuitions are correct). 

What makes introverts behave in an introverted way is neglecting their extraverted functions, because its through their extraverted functions that they connect with the outside world. You don't seem to have that problem, your persona seems built around achieving something in the outside world. "If you fail, commit suicide." -- a really imbalanced introvert might conclude something like this under extremes, but most introverts aren't going to be so beholden to external obligation or external validations. They retreat back into their own heads and subjective perspectives and shut any worldly evaluation out. Extraverts have a hard time doing this, as they often do the opposite, insecure of their own subjective perspectives they retreat to the more comfortable world of objective external validation. 

The INTJ type would probably respond by just intuiting or making gut-feeling inspired guesses through their dilemma falling back on wisdom and sagacity to help see their way through. Ni in an INTJ would overpower Te on most days. The quasi-unconscious nature of Ni and the way it links patterns in the back of your mind seemingly from all perspectives makes Ni very confident in its conclusions. Ni-doms know they're right, they can't tell you how they know, but they just know. This is the perspective they would retreat to when stressed, thus the stereotype of INJs as _know-it-alls_ or all knowing (in the case of fictional INTJs like Anton Chigurh in _No Country For Old Men_ or Darth Vader). These characters just seem to have a sixth-sense (Ni) about knowing what action to take, what the next few moves will be and how the situation is likely to turn out in the end. (In _No Country_ Chigurh is so confident of his intuitive abilities that he flips a coin as a game just to 'even the odds.' This kind of thing is indicative of a person with inferior-Se using something physical to counterbalance their overactive intuitions.)


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## Owuguffu (Sep 28, 2011)

Wow. I never knew that there were others like me. 

I was diagnosed with it about two years ago after finally getting fed up with my habits. Honestly, it was a big relief to know that it's not a character flaw. After that, I was set on stamping it out of my system ASAP. What really tipped me off about the possibility back then was the consistent gap between what I know as a fact what I'm capable of and what my actual performance was. 

It's nice to see that you see your ADD as an asset. For the kind of direction you seem to be heading towards in your life, it makes sense. That's not the case with me however. I'm working on my law degree at the moment and that requires attention to detail and promptness. ADD greatly holds me back in this aspect. I don't see any room for compromise in this aspect because I love what I do. It's a lot of work, but very satisfying for me.

On another note, shouldn't this be in the INTJ section?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

TheMadHatter said:


> Thanks for the reply. I just did the Test again, 4th time. I always get INTJ.
> 
> Your Result: INTJ
> 
> ...


Dichotomy tests are nonesense. Also, you scored close on N/S and P/J. I haven't read your whole post though, so I have no doubts you are an INTJ yet.



TheMadHatter said:


> I once started my own art gallery, and helped run warehouse raves, just to see if I could do it.


Nice! I've helped organize those too.

Edit: Okay, read it. Anyone can have ADD, certain types aren't exempt from it. I did find it peculiar that you keep referring to a side of you as "INTJ" as if it were some external force. INTJ is not an archetype, it's simply a description.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> I did find it peculiar that you keep referring to a side of you as "INTJ" as if it were some external force


Right and this strikes me as somewhat odd for an intuitive. I would think the dominant intuitive would side with the mysterious force rather than fight it. Again not typical of intuitive introverts.

I guess just trying to wrap my head around this from my own maybe warped sense of logic. If I'm trying to deduce the simplest scenario from what you wrote, you come across as either (1) a somewhat abnormal INTJ who curiously identifies more with Te than Ni, speaks about things in a Ne paradigm and suffers from a diagnosed developmental disorder or (2) a reasonably normal ESTJ. 

That's where I'm coming from, not trying to doubt you or say you are wrong. You've certainly put a lot of stock into your considerations. It's just like @Spades said those tests are garbage in/garbage out so unless you have a frame of reference to crosscheck those conclusions you might be led down a stray path.

If you have been diagnosed with ADHD then technically speaking you have a disorder and online tests are not designed to evaluate situations like this. The results are going to be skewed, because the test is designed around (what the authors consider to be) normal behavior or normal processing. You would be the exception to the rule and an online test that deals more with conventions is likely going to give you odd results. (Think of it like a color blind person taking a personality test based on how you responded to colors. There's no way that test would be able to deal with this person effectively).


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## TheMadHatter (Nov 14, 2011)

Spades said:


> I did find it peculiar that you keep referring to a side of you as "INTJ" as if it were some external force. INTJ is not an archetype, it's simply a description.


I call that demanding little voice in my head that wants to take over the world "INTJ" in this post just for style purposes. I'm just saying that the voice sounds like an INTJ, and my ADD (my actual functionality) once constantly disappointed that inner voice. I speak of this voice in the sense that Mark Twain refers to the "inner master" in his essay "what is man". Should read it, it's probably one of the greatest things I've ever read: classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-whatisman.htm



LiquidLight said:


> you come across as either a reasonably normal ESTJ.
> 
> If you have been diagnosed with ADHD then technically speaking you have a disorder and online tests are not designed to evaluate situations like this.


Like in the previous posts, I understand that my disorder skews the results, but when I fill out those tests I fill them out as my "inner master / voice". For instance: my perfectionist tendency with design is a side effect of my ADD medication. I am not normally like that. The seperation between personalities is pretty definite, me posting in this forum in the first place is my Extraverted ADD side, which my INTJ inner voice sees and say "OK, you can post this, because I know self knowledge will help us in the long term". In real life I'm very much introverted, quiet, and inside myself. Sometimes I'm extraverted and emotional, but I know that's the ADD talking. I checked out your link for ESTJ but I don't identify with that at all. I extremely identify with the INTJ analogy of the chess player / mastermind. But I have my biases, I like that because I'm very good at chess but never learned to play. My inner voice takes over when I play, and is in full control. He makes the long term strategic decisions, my ADD is the spur of the moment/spontaneous side that the inner voice guides and directs.

Thanks for the replies guys! Already feel at home. This is a step up from 4chan (long, long time /b/tard)

And obligatory: Current song:
youtube.com/watch?v=Z26drCNye5Y


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

TheMadHatter said:


> I call that demanding little voice in my head that wants to take over the world "INTJ" in this post just for style purposes. I'm just saying that the voice sounds like an INTJ, and my ADD (my actual functionality) once constantly disappointed that inner voice.


That's exactly what I mean. The taking over the world thing is a stereotype. It says nothing about Ni-Te. It's what you decided was INTJ based on the glorified view of INTJ's. You actually sound like an Enneagram Type 1. I would recommend looking into the Enneagram as it's a very useful tool and will help you understand your fears/motivations. Also, welcome to PerC! ^_^



TheMadHatter said:


> And obligatory: Current song:
> youtube.com/watch?v=Z26drCNye5Y


The chances of me liking someone else's music is like 3%. Downtempo happens to be one of my favourites.


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## TheMadHatter (Nov 14, 2011)

@Owuguffu

I'm glad there's someone else too! It took me a long time to see my ADD as an asset. I thought I was doomed for life (even sometimes today I think "aw balls why me"). I have mostly older friends, and one of my closest friends is a ~50 year old investment portfolio manager that I get along with extremely well. When he was helping me write essays for college, he said: "think about what is your biggest liability, and then tell them how you made that an asset instead". I thought about it for a long time, and it turns out ADD is actually a huge asset if you can become master over it. Left alone it's like a roaring fire that destroys your life, but tamed and focused it's like a laser that you can switch on and off.

My guess is that you already see the benefits but you're not aware of it. My girlfriend actually wants to study law (she is currently doing her undergrad at brown) and is sometimes really jealous of my ADD. She goes about everything extremely methodically and slowly, and I work at a lightning pace when my hyperfocus kicks in. It takes her 2-3 days to write a paper. I just wait for the last minute, drink some coffee, and hammer out a 10 page paper in an hour and think I completely half assed it. The reply I got back was "thank you for writing such a thoughtful, insightful essay. It was a pleasure to read. The only thing that I can criticize is that you should watch your spelling". I hadn't proof read the essay xD

ADD is a blessing and a curse. Read everything you can about it. Pick up Edward M Hallowell's "Driven to Distraction" and learn to make use of it. Turn the forest fire into a controlled energy source.

If you want to know more, I wrote an extensive guide that can be found in the 4chan archive. Here's a hotlink, I screencapped it for an occasion like this. img683.imageshack.us/img683/3893/addguide.jpg

Good luck my brethren!


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## TheMadHatter (Nov 14, 2011)

Thanks! I'm glad you liked the music. Yeah, I hate everyone else's music too, people call me a hipster and a snob, I just have very specific tastes in music.

The "take over the world" thing was more tongue in cheek. My real idol is steve jobs: pursue relentless excellence, no matter how many people you have to crush in the process. Make great things. Go down in history as a great mind. That's my inner voice. As you can see, I definitely have the Arrogance of an INTJ . But I am not ashamed of it in the least. I want other's to respect me, not like me.

I took the Big Five just now and got OCEAN as a result.
I took the enneagram and got 3w4 "The Professional"
Don't know if that clears anything up.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

TheMadHatter said:


> Thanks! I'm glad you liked the music. Yeah, I hate everyone else's music too, people call me a hipster and a snob, I just have very specific tastes in music.
> 
> The "take over the world" thing was more tongue in cheek. My real idol is steve jobs: pursue relentless excellence, no matter how many people you have to crush in the process. Make great things. Go down in history as a great mind. That's my inner voice. As you can see, I definitely have the Arrogance of an INTJ . But I am not ashamed of it in the least. I want other's to respect me, not like me.
> 
> ...


Interesting! Yes, 3 makes a lot of sense. I think ENTP's are often 3's. I'm a bit confused about your Big Five result, as I thought the letters were S/R, C/L, O/U, E/A, I/N in that order.


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## TheMadHatter (Nov 14, 2011)

Spades said:


> ENTP's are often 3's.
> 
> I thought the letters were S/R, C/L, O/U, E/A, I/N in that order.


Again, I'm extremely introverted. I work from home, I basically never leave my house, and I can barely talk to anyone I don't know.

Yeah the site I went to gave me the result in that order. Interesting coincidence thats it's "ocean".


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

TheMadHatter said:


> Again, I'm extremely introverted. I work from home, I basically never leave my house, and I can barely talk to anyone I don't know.
> 
> Yeah the site I went to gave me the result in that order. Interesting coincidence thats it's "ocean".


What I meant is that that's not a result I recognize. It doesn't follow the letters I gave. If it helps, INTJ's usually score RCOEI or RLOEI. I scored SCOEI (with very slight s).

Edit: Oh, and I'm still not sure of your type. INTJ seems plausible but have you looked into ISTP? Also, sorry if I'm coming off as rude ^_^;


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## TheMadHatter (Nov 14, 2011)

Spades said:


> What I meant is that that's not a result I recognize.



I apologize profusely. The site I went to must have been bad, OCEAN are the 5 criteria (openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism), my result is SCOEI. I don't know why I mixed that up (I had a lot of coffee this morning).

Extroversion 56%
Orderliness 62%
Emotional Stability 50%
Accommodation 26%
Inquisitiveness 88%

Seems we are the same in terms of Big Five. You are extraverted there, but are an introverted in MBTI, I seem to have the same makeup. I am very reserved and nervous but when called upon I spring into action and lead like there's no tomorrow. Kind of similar to my love life, I can't make the first introduction but come up to me and you're in for a wild ride.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

TheMadHatter said:


> Seems we are the same in terms of Big Five. You are extraverted there, but are an introverted in MBTI, I seem to have the same makeup. I am very reserved and nervous but when called upon I spring into action and lead like there's no tomorrow. Kind of similar to my love life, I can't make the first introduction but come up to me and you're in for a wild ride.


Yeah, Big5 and MBTI define Extroversion/Introversion quite differently. Looking at your posts again, especially the most recent one, INTJ seems more likely. Ni is a highly individualized function and I can't say for sure, but I think you do use it. Having ADD must suck for J's =(


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