# EII or IEE?



## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

I've come to the conclusion that I'm likely either an EII or an IEE. So my question is really, what are the differences between these two types? How would the differing order of cognitive functions manifest both internally and externally?


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

Reinin dichotomies - Wikisocion Lots of differences here

Model A can be a little subtle when deciding between two types like that, but also very helpful.
Ethical Intuitive Introtim - Wikisocion
Intuitive Ethical Extratim - Wikisocion

You mentioned hating Ti in another thread. I dunno where I saw it. That could be a sign of Ti PoLR -> IEE.

Edit: Come to think of it, you identify as an INTJ right? That could be an example of Te HA. Might make IEE more likely as well.
The function order is muuuuch different from MBTI. It's really hard to explain how EII vs IEE differ internally and externally without writing pages. 
It's much more complex than this, but (by strength only)
IEE: Ne, Fe, Fi, Ni, Te, Se, Si, Ti
EII: Fi, Ni, Ne, Fe, Si, Ti, Te, Se

By valuing ---> devaluing (Less sure of this breakdown than previous one)
IEE: Ne, Si, Fi, Te, Fe, Ni, Se ,Ti
EII: Fi, Te, Ne, Si, Ni, Fe, Ti, Se


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

I've used Reinin dichotomies before to successfully tell Mirror types apart -- e.g. EII is constructivist, IEE is emotivist; EII is positivist, IEE is negativist; EII is strategic, IEE is tactical, etc.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

After comparing the dichotomies between the two and then looking at the difference between temperaments I think it's safe to say I'm probably an EII. I don't know if this is unusual for an INTJ.. but my Enneagram is 9w1 so that probably has something to do with it.

I'm interested about the functions in order of valued to devalued and strength to weakness.. although I have to admit I don't really get it. Is it something to do with the shadow functions?


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

When I take the test though I get INFj-Ne.. what's the difference between that and IEE? Aren't they just the same?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> When I take the test though I get INFj-Ne.. what's the difference between that and IEE? Aren't they just the same?


EII-Ne has strengthened Ne and Te but still lead with Fi. Will you take the 80 questionnaire? Mostly interested in your answers on Fe, Se, Ne and Ni.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Entropic said:


> EII-Ne has strengthened Ne and Te but still lead with Fi. Will you take the 80 questionnaire? Mostly interested in your answers on Fe, Se, Ne and Ni.


Sure. What's the link?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Sure. What's the link?


It's stickied.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Phew! These took a while to answer. Hope this is enough info.

Block I http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/0/01/Symbol_l.gif



*General to specific, specific to general – what does it mean?* General to specific is a few important details of an overall picture to many embellished details of a narrow line of reasoning. And visa versa.
*What does "logical" mean? What is your understanding? Do you think that it correlates with the common view?* Logical to me is efficiency. Doing things the best way. Things being structured well.. arguments being structured well and making sense. I don't know if it correlates with the common view. Maybe.
*How do you explain fractions on the dial of the clock?* I don't get this question.. What do you mean by 'fractions'? (Could be American/British terminology difference here.)
*What is a rule? What rules do you have to follow?* A rule is a guideline that helps a task be carried out to its full potential. I have internal rules that help me to function.. I also try to follow rules in the world to get places.
*What is hierarchy? Do you need to follow it? Why or why not?* Hierarchy is people organized in a structured way according to their rank. I think it's a useful guide to work ones way up higher in the chain, if so desired.
*What do you think of instructions? Do you use them? Could you write an instruction manual? If so, what type of instruction manual would you most likely write?* Instructions are helpful but usually I only tend to look at them after I realize I can't figure out the problem myself. I could probably write an instruction manual. I could write anything that needs clear outlined stages.. doesn't matter what it is.
*Please explain: "Freedom is in complying with the laws, but not in ignoring the laws"? Do you agree with the statement? Why?* My explanation of that quote is that if you break the law you go to prison, so you have less freedom, whilst if you comply with them then you have more freedom. I mostly agree with it.. but it depends what others consider 'freedom'. To someone else killing someone might be freedom, and they might not feel like their freedom was lost from being caught because they got to do the thing that they felt most would make them 'free'.
*Tell us how about consistent you are? *I would say I'm consistent.. although I'm not sure it looks that way on the outside.
*What is a "standard"? Why do people need it?* A standard is a baseline of excellence that one aims for. It's needed because otherwise society would probably not function properly.
*You need to put your home library in order. How do you feel about this activity? How will you approach this task?* I would probably put it off a while but once I got round to doing it I would probably enjoy it. I don't know how I would approach the task.. it depends what's actually disorganized about it.




Block II http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/1/12/Symbol_p.gif



*What is work in your opinion? Why do people go to work? Are there any parameters where you can distinguish whether you can do this work or not?* Work is something that gains liveable money. People go to work for survival. A person's own experiences, interests and potential distinguishes whether they can do a particular type of work or not.
*Is there any correlation between quality and quantity? Tell us if or how the price depends on quality?* More quantity usually equals lesser quality because of the way the produce is produced en masse. Higher quality is usually more expensive.
*How do people determine the quality of work? How do you determine such quality? How well you can determine the quality of any purchase, do you pay any attention to it?* The quality of work commonly seems to be determined by the wage that is paid. I determine quality of work by what I personally enjoy. I can determine the quality of any purchase by looking at it closely or by taking any details about it into account.
*How do you feel if you didn't finish some work? Does it ever happen? What are the reasons?* If I don't finish some work it's because I got bored with it. It rarely happens though.
*What is "interesting work" for you? Please explain in detail.* Interesting work is anything that is in my own personal interests or anything that challenges me in any way.
*You go to the store and see something you're interested in buying; there is a price tag on it. What parameters are you going to use to understand if it's overpriced, underpriced, or priced correctly?* I'd compare it to prices of the same product in other stores.. if I hadn't paid much attention to the product before then I would google it.
*When you work and someone tells you: "You don't do it right." What is your reaction?* Unless they had valid reason to say that then I would ignore them.
*There is a professional right next to you. You always see that you can't perform the way they do. Your feelings, thoughts and actions?* "Practice makes perfect". I would be inspired by them.
*When you have to ask someone else to help you with the task, how do you feel?* I'd wonder if it's something small and stupid but it wouldn't matter too much. Getting it right is what's important.
*You need to build a pyramid exactly like in Egypt. Your thoughts, feelings and actions?* How the heck do I do that? Lol. Well.. I'd research everything involved and then hire people to carry out certain tasks and probably just oversee everything as it's being built.




Block III http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/a/aa/Symbol_s.gif



*What is beauty? Do you change your opinion about beauty? Does your understanding correlate with the generally accepted notion?* *What goes beyond the generally accepted notion?* Beauty is anything that makes me feel good. I don't know what the generally accepted notion is..
*Please describe your understanding of a beautifully dressed person. What is the core of beauty? How do you explain what is beautiful to a person who has never heard about beauty before?* A beautifully dressed person is someone who dresses in a way that complements their body shape and colours. I don't know what the core of beauty is.. and well, I'd just say beauty is something that makes you feel good, since that's my understanding of it.
*Is there a template of understanding what beautiful means for everyone to use? Is there such a term as "classical beauty"? If so, what is it?* A template of understanding? No.. how could there be? Beauty is different to everyone. Classical beauty is just a particular type of beauty which some enjoy and others don't.
*What is comfort? What is coziness? How do you create your comfort and coziness? How do others evaluate your skill in doing so? Do you agree with them?* Comfort is something that makes me feel good too.. lol. Cosiness is the same. I don't really create comfort and coziness.. it's just something I feel sometimes.
*How do you pick your own clothes? Do you follow fashion? Why? Do you know how to select clothes for different types of figures?* I pick something that suits me and is easy to wear. I don't follow fashion, I don't understand the point of doing so. I would probably not be too great at selecting clothes for different types of figures.
*How do you cook? Do you follow recipes? What do others think of your skill?* I might vaguely follow an outline or make it up as I go along, depending on the level of difficulty. I don't know about my skill, I don't actually cook that often.
*Are you good at color patterns and mixing them and matching?* I think so, yes.
*If someone is telling you what is beautiful and what is not, what goes with what color and what is not, do you agree with this person?* Maybe. I'd likely just see it as their own opinion.
*Tell us how you'd design any room, house or an office. Do you do it yourself or trust someone else to do it? Why?* I'd do it myself. I'd enjoy trying to get things to match. I wouldn't trust anyone else to do it, although I might ask for help.
*How do you know if a person has bad taste? Could you give us an example? Do you always trust your own taste or do you seek opinions from others?* A person has a bad taste when there's a lot of clashing going on. For example if they wore a gold shirt with grey trousers with pink undertones in their skin. I trust my own taste for myself. Although saying that, I usually ask others what they think for confirmation on whether it does work or not. Mostly I get it right but not always and so I'm always grateful for good feedback.




Block IV http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/c/c8/Symbol_f.gif



*Can you line up human resources and make them do things? What methods do you use? Can you press people? If so, how does it happen?* I don't get what is meant by 'lining up human resources'. I don't know if I can press people. I probably have the potential but it's something I rarely do because it's not needed. If it is though then I can do it.
*What is incursion? How do you deal with this? Can you repulse? How easy can you do it?* I have no idea what incursion is..
*What does "my people" and "strangers" mean? When do "my people" become "strangers" and why?* Uhh.. I don't know. Everyone is pretty much a stranger to me. I don't consider any persons 'mine'.
*Are there strategies of attack? Can you use them? When is it justified?* I don't attack. I go around back when no one's looking to get what I want, lol.
*Do you think it's ok to occupy someone else's territory? In what situations?* Only if it's absolutely necessary. Like war or something.
*What are the methods of volitional force? When is it most effective and in what situations?* I don't know..
*How do you protect yourself and your interests? *Build walls around myself.
*Describe your behavior in the situations of opposition and if you have to use some force?* I would either brush it off or stand up and say something depending on level of importance.
*Do others think of you as a strong person? Do you think you are a strong person?* Yes and yes. But it's more internally than externally.
*How do you understand if a person is strong? Are there any signs of a strong person? What is the core of any force? Why do people listen to one person, but not the other?* Strength is high self-confidence, self-worth, self-esteem, ect. Also endurance. I don't know what the core of any force is. People listen to one person over another because the person that is listened to exudes all these qualities assertively.




Block V http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/a/a3/Symbol_r.gif



*What is boorishness? Does your understanding of it correlate with the generally accepted notion? How would you explain what boorishness mean to a 10 year old child? How would you explain the same to an adult who does not behave ethically?* I don't know what 'boorishness' is..
*How would you improve the moral of the society?* Get them to improve their internal lives.
*Can you justify somebody's bad behavior by thinking that he/she wasn't taught how to do so?* Yes. I can always find a justification for bad behaviour.
*Give us your understanding of love. Can you love and punish at the same time?* I can't explain love without mentioning my spiritual beliefs. So to me love is everything that exists. I don't believe in punishment though.
*Have you heard about the Southern hospitality? Everything is for the guest. There is also a German hospitality – the master of the house is always right. What method is the right one? Try to evaluate without the weight of any cultural aspects, traditions, nations etc. *Why does there have to be a 'right' method? Diversity is good.
*What is sympathy? When do you need to express it? When is it advised not to? *Sympathy is understanding of a persons emotional state. It's good to express it when someone is discussing their emotions. It's best not to express it when it would for some reason have a negative reaction on the person.
*Are there any norms of behavior in the society? Do you follow them? Do people always have to follow them? Why?* I guess there are? They're implicit and I don't really get them. I try to follow them but I do a bad job I think. I'd think most people follow them, but I don't think they 'have' to be followed or even that they should be followed.
*How do you know what attitude among people is right or wrong? *It depends what's right or wrong to them.
*What does moral mean? What is immoral? Does your understanding correlate with the others? How can you evaluate the correctness of your own understanding?* Moral means valuing life. Immoral is the opposite and not valuing life. I don't know if my understanding correlates with others. I don't really need to evaluate the correctness of my own understanding. To me it's right.
*Somebody is giving you a negative attitude – what is your reaction? Could you show your own negative attitude toward someone else? If so, how? Could you give a person the silent treatment? How easily do you forgive people?* My attitude/reaction is to stay calm. Yes I could show a negative attitude to someone else. I would show my disdain for something.. complain about it or something. I've given many people the silent treatment, lol, although these days I'm working on not doing it so much. I forgive people very easily.




Block VI http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/2/20/Symbol_e.gif



*"Whole world does not cost one tear of child" – how do you understand this phrase? Do you agree with this opinion?* I don't get it.
*Is it acceptable to express emotions? Give examples of inappropriate expression of emotions.* Yes it is. Inappropriate times would be when it's not beneficial to the environment.
*Can you use negative emotions? In what situations?* Yes. When I want to gain something out of them, lol.
*How do you express negative emotions? What does it look like? What do others think about it?* Depends what negative emotions they are. When I'm feeling depressed I withdraw. When I'm angry I make it known. I don't know what others think about it.
*Shallow emotions – what does it mean? Are there any other emotions?* Shallow emotions are emotions you don't feel deeply, I guess? Are there any other emotions.. yes?
*What are right or wrong emotions? *This question is stupid. There are no right or wrong emotions.
*Can you change the emotional state of yourself? Of others? To what side – positive or negative?* I don't care to change my own emotional state. Or that of others. Emotions should just be as they are.
*What does it mean to "pour out your emotions"? How does it happen?* When you let them out instead of keeping them inside. It happens either when you consciously let it happen or when you don't and you blow up accidentally.
*Does your internal emotional state correlate with what you show externally?* I don't know.. I think sometimes yes and sometimes no.
*Do you track what mood you are in throughout the day? Do you notice the mood of others?* I always track my own moods. I notice the moods of others if they are close to me.




Block VII http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/9/9a/Symbol_t.gif



*Do you like surprises?* No.
*How people change? How do you feel about those changes? Can others see the changes?* People change because they grow. I'm neutral about those changes. I don't know if others can see others changes.
*Is it true that whatever happens is only for the best?* Yes.
*What do you think of horoscopes, fortune telling etc.? Do you believe in luck, lucky fortuity?* Horoscopes are unproven, fortune telling is usually a scam. I don't believe in luck. I believe in reason.
*Can you forecast events? Is it even real? *Sometimes. Is what even real?
*What is time? How do you feel time? Can you "kill" time? How?* Time is a measured passing of change. It doesn't make me feel anything. Time doesn't really exist in the first place so it can't be killed.
*Is it easy for you to wait for some important event? What if you don’t know when it is supposed to happen?* Yes it's easy. It doesn't matter if I don't know when it's supposed to happen.
*Do you need help creating forecasts and determining how something will end? Do you trust those forecasts?* I don't need help. I trust my own forecasts.
*Are you normally late? How do you react if someone is late? *"A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to", lol. I'm always on time. I find it disrespectful if someone is late.
*Imagine the situation where you agreed to meet with someone. Your feelings and actions: a) 20 minutes before the meeting starts, b) 5 minutes before the meeting starts, c) it is time for the meeting to start, but the person is not here, d) 20 minutes after the meeting start time and the person is not here, e) more time and the person is still not here… *20 minutes before I wouldn't feel anything. 5 minutes before and I'd start preparing myself for anything. At the time the meeting starts I would wonder where they are and why there aren't at the meeting. I'd probably have left by 20 minutes after.




Block VIII http://www.wikisocion.org/en/images/5/5a/Symbol_i.gif



*Is there a meaning of life? In what? Is it the same for everybody?* The meaning of life is to create meaning. What that is for everyone else though may differ.
*What should be done so people can be happy?* People should do what they want to do.
*In the situations with a lot of potential and volatility will you trust your own guts, logically calculating everything or will you ask people you trust what should be done?* I always trust my gut first and foremost, but I calculate and ask others for support as well.
*When you meet a stranger, what can you say about them right away? How do you know what this person is all about? Does it take long to understand someone's talents?* I can understand the way their mind works. I can get a feel for what they're all about. I guess I 'just know'. No it doesn't take me long to understand someone's talents.
*Remember an interesting person and call out 5-6 qualities you think are interesting in them. What makes an interesting person? Are you an interesting person? Why? What if someone calls you "boring" and "not interesting"?* An interesting person is someone who thinks things in depth, who looks at things in novel ways, who doesn't follow the norm, who is always looking to better themselves, and who is imaginative. I think I'm an interesting person because I never run out of things to be interested by. If someone called me boring I wouldn't care. I'm interesting to me.
*What opinions, from people who know you, seem: a) fair; b) not fair; c) hurtful; d) strange.* I don't know. I don't care.
*Do you fantasize? What kind of fantasies do you have?* I don't fantasize. I see it as being unrealistic and a waste of time.
*What qualities should a person have to be successful and why?* Drive and motivation. Failure is always a given so the ability to keep going and not give up is important.
*What qualities can stop a person from being successful and why?* Lack of belief in oneself.
*What is more important in life – to be a good person or be a successful one? Why? Is a good person always successful? If not, then why?* To be successful, because success to me is not just external but internal as well. So if someone is both externally and internally successful then they can be a good person too. But a good person may not always be successful either internally or externally.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

ScarlettHayden said:


> I'm interested about the functions in order of valued to devalued and strength to weakness.. although I have to admit I don't really get it. Is it something to do with the shadow functions?


Socionics functions are NOT ranked according to strength, but rather they are assigned different roles that they play within the psyche of the person. One way to confirm your type is to carefully study functional roles and then decide which information elements is playing which role for you.



ScarlettHayden said:


> When I take the test though I get INFj-Ne.. what's the difference between that and IEE? Aren't they just the same?


INFj-Ne has Fi in leading function position and Ne as creative function.
IEE has Ne in leading function position and Fi as creative function.
This makes a world of a difference :happy:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Schweeeeks @Word Dispenser what do you get from this? I get nothing. Too short.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Entropic said:


> @_Schweeeeks_ @_Word Dispenser_ what do you get from this? I get nothing. Too short.


Based on the 80, as sparse as it may appear, I'd say LSE is my best determination at this point in time. roud:

At the very least, I would conjecture _not _EII.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

LSE? 

From the description it sounds like they're always on the go. That's hardly me. I take things at a slow and steady pace.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> LSE?
> 
> From the description it sounds like they're always on the go. That's hardly me. I take things at a slow and steady pace.


Key word is 'from the description'.

Dealio is, description doesn't mean as much as cognition-- Meaning that you could be a lazy, slow-going person, and still an LSE.

Fact of the matter is, IEE description in sociotype fits me better than LII, technically. :blushed: But, I don't have an Fi bone in my body. Except maybe that fluke one that broke off when that computer processor fell on my foot.

Still, I could definitely be wrong. If Entropic doesn't have enough, then I probably shouldn't have enough either. I just guess.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Hmm.. it would be good if I could understand the cognitive functions myself but there's so much I don't know where to begin, lol. Seems way more complicated than MBTI. The IEE description does seem to suit me best but alas descriptions are often known to be wrong so it's not a reliable indicator.

So I'm curious about the functions of LSE in order to strength to weakness and also in order of valuing to devaluing. What would they be?

I'll be interested to see what Entropic thinks then.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

ScarlettHayden said:


> So I'm curious about the functions of LSE in order to strength to weakness and also in order of valuing to devaluing. What would they be?


I may have misspoke earlier. In my head, I see them in order of strength -> weakness and valuing -> devaluing as a shortcut.
The actual framework is much more complicated. It's not really like MBTI where one is clearly above the other, so on and so forth.

If the function is the IS, the location in Model A is more the PLACE and HOW it might manifest.
Socionics Model A Try this to get a better understanding of Model A itself. Then you can click on individual sociotypes to learn more.

Anyway to me LSE
Strong -> Weak:
Te, Se, Si, Ti, Ne, Fe, Fi, Ni
Valued -> Devalued:
Te, Fi, Si, Ne, Se, Ti, Fe, Ni


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Okay I don't have time to study all this but the thing that stood out most to me from the diagrams on the link were the 'strong and valued', 'weak and unvalued', 'weak and valued', and 'strong and unvalued' bits.

So I need to figure out which of my functions fall into where, right? Problem is I'm confused because the functions are different to MBTI and I have no idea what they mean. And I don't have time to study them.

Can anyone give me a brief listing of how all the functions manifest so I can place them into some sort of order? Thanks.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Just quickly came across this site: Socionics :: Information Elements and ordered them best I could. I was unsure about some of them but I'm pretty sure Se and Fi are my weak unvalued functions. I have no idea what they are or how they work. The others I understood better. Surprisingly though that would put me in the gamma quadra as either ILI or LIE.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Wait.. did I get that right? Is Se and Fi unvalued or valued in ILI/LIE's?


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Wait.. did I get that right? Is Se and Fi unvalued or valued in ILI/LIE's?


They're weak but valued by ILI/LIE. Those types don't value Si, Fe, Ne and Ti.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Also it seems that out of the two LIE's are more spontaneous? Whilst LSE's plan every little detail?


I wouldn't say LIEs are more spontaneous, it's just that LSEs got Ne HA and Ni porl, making them more paranoid over the future, and they are also farsighted while LIEs are carefree. But LIEs are structured in many ways, desiring order and stability, so I don't feel inclined to say they are spontaneous either.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Good example of LIE vs LSE can be found in the TV series Scrubs if you've seen it. Dr. Cox is the LIE and Dr. Kelso LSE. Can't think of any potential ILI in it, but Carla would be a good example of an SLI.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm definitely carefree. Not paranoid over the future at all. Maybe that's because I can already 'see' how things will turn out, in relation to how things already are. That's an Ni thing right? 

Also I want to ask a question about 'motion'. Which IM is responsible for motion (I think there was one but I can't remember which)? Because I've noticed I love watching things in motion or just being in motion myself. For example, I love being in moving vehicles like on the motorway or in the air or right now I'm watching a tennis match and the back and forth of the ball really has me entranced. It's something about me 'becoming' the motion itself. Does that have an IM? Ni maybe?

I haven't seen scrubs but thanks for the recommendation. I'll give it a watch and see the differences between the two.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Also I want to ask a question about 'motion'. Which IM is responsible for motion (I think there was one but I can't remember which)? Because I've noticed I love watching things in motion or just being in motion myself. For example, I love being in moving vehicles like on the motorway or in the air or right now I'm watching a tennis match and the back and forth of the ball really has me entranced. It's something about me 'becoming' the motion itself. Does that have an IM? Ni maybe?


Sensation. Seems Se.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Entropic said:


> Sensation. Seems Se.


Hmm. I thought Se in Socionics was about control of the external environment though, and in MBTI about external sensation? Or is it just a case of overlap here?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Hmm. I thought Se in Socionics was about control of the external environment though, and in MBTI about external sensation? Or is it just a case of overlap here?


Se is still about experiencing the sense environment in an objective way.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> I wouldn't say LIEs are more spontaneous, it's just that LSEs got Ne HA and Ni porl, making them more paranoid over the future


Not really. In general, types that have 1D Ni tend to really trust themselves and believe that if they can take effective control of things, they will turn out okay. So they're proactive and fairly short-term focused, and usually very self-confident. Getting paranoid about the future is more of an ISxx trend, generally.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

Aleksei said:


> Not really. In general, types that have 1D Ni tend to really trust themselves and believe that if they can take effective control of things, they will turn out okay. So they're proactive and fairly short-term focused, and usually very self-confident. Getting paranoid about the future is more of an ISxx trend, generally.


This explanation fits my ex well (no other Ni PoLR description has). Same with a few LSEs I know.

@_ScarlettHayden_ : Not ignoring you! I really don't understand Ni PoLR, like how to spot it, what it looks like, how to separate it in healthy vs unhealthy individuals.
Hopefully other forum members will share their insights too.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...PoLR-How-does-it-manifest-in-ESFjs-and-ESTjs?
http://forum.socionix.com/topic/1285-estjinfj-and-the-ni-polr/
More ideas


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

@Schweeeeks, the likelihood of finding quality information about anything in those two forums is slim to almost none. >_>


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Aleksei said:


> Not really. In general, types that have 1D Ni tend to really trust themselves and believe that if they can take effective control of things, they will turn out okay. So they're proactive and fairly short-term focused, and usually very self-confident. Getting paranoid about the future is more of an ISxx trend, generally.


But don't they do that because they are not good and don't like making predictions about the future, in the first place? With my LSE dad, for instance, I notice that he tends to worry about every little thing that could happen often caring about the unlikeliest of events and I can't do much to convince him otherwise =/.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> But don't they do that because they are not good and don't like making predictions about the future, in the first place?


Yeah, but that's not the same as being paranoid about the future. Paranoia implies pessimism, which comes from basically imagining the worst that could happen. LSEs are disinclined to try to forecast the future or speculate about things, and simply believe that if they work hard enough things will come through for them.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> But don't they do that because they are not good and don't like making predictions about the future, in the first place? With my LSE dad, for instance, I notice that he tends to worry about every little thing that could happen often caring about the unlikeliest of events and I can't do much to convince him otherwise =/.


Paranoia is present at a subtle level for all type of "Aristocratic" quadra because their -Ni (Beta) and -Ne (Delta) spots _negative potential_ - potential that something might be destroyed or ruined, that they will set back, that there might be unforeseen delays and obstacles. That's why your dad is worrying so much, because his -Ne hidden agenda is envisioning spectres of failures for him.

This is very different from "Democratic" quadra that value +Ni (Gamma) and +Ne (Alpha) where to the contrary spotting positive, advantageous, beneficial potential is a prized quality in oneself and others. 

The SEE for example will scatter his energies without the ILI directing his actions into some productive and beneficial course. The SLI isn't able to do this, the SLI knows what he should be doing for himself, but he isn't going to subtly nudge the SEE towards potentially beneficial ventures like the ILI. He'll quietly work to himself and look for people who can see the nearing of potentially negative events and people that could undermine his work or even be hazardous to his life.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

cyamitide said:


> Paranoia is present at a subtle level for all type of "Aristocratic" quadra because their -Ni (Beta) and -Ne (Delta) spots _negative potential_ - potential that something might be destroyed or ruined, that they will set back, that there might be unforeseen delays and obstacles. That's why your dad is worrying so much, because his -Ne hidden agenda is envisioning spectres of failures for him.
> 
> This is very different from "Democratic" quadra that value +Ni (Gamma) and +Ne (Alpha) where to the contrary spotting positive, advantageous, beneficial potential is a prized quality in oneself and others.
> 
> The SEE for example will scatter his energies without the ILI directing his actions into some productive and beneficial course. The SLI isn't able to do this, the SLI knows what he should be doing for himself, but he isn't going to subtly nudge the SEE towards potentially beneficial ventures like the ILI. He'll quietly work to himself and look for people who can see the nearing of potentially negative events and people that could undermine his work or even be hazardous to his life.


How does that work with Carefree vs Farsighted? Would it be more of an exaggerated effect with Farsighted + (-Ni, -Ne) and then Carefree + (+Ni, +Ne) on the other side of the spectrum?


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

cyamitide said:


> Paranoia is present at a subtle level for all type of "Aristocratic" quadra because their -Ni (Beta) and -Ne (Delta) spots _negative potential_ - potential that something might be destroyed or ruined, that they will set back, that there might be unforeseen delays and obstacles. That's why your dad is worrying so much, because his -Ne hidden agenda is envisioning spectres of failures for him.
> 
> This is very different from "Democratic" quadra that value +Ni (Gamma) and +Ne (Alpha) where to the contrary spotting positive, advantageous, beneficial potential is a prized quality in oneself and others.
> 
> The SEE for example will scatter his energies without the ILI directing his actions into some productive and beneficial course. The SLI isn't able to do this, the SLI knows what he should be doing for himself, but he isn't going to subtly nudge the SEE towards potentially beneficial ventures like the ILI. He'll quietly work to himself and look for people who can see the nearing of potentially negative events and people that could undermine his work or even be hazardous to his life.


This is pretty much demonstrably false with ILIs, for starters. An ILI's focus is typically negative and predicated on pointing out inefficiencies and errors in logic in the goings-on around them, which allows them to live a rational life (Ni +Ti). In general, IxIs lack initiative because they're fatalistic about the way events will unfold and consider trying to change anything not worth their effort.

The main difference between ILIs and SLIs is that ILIs are actually willing to step in and criticize what they consider an "incorrect" path, whereas SLIs consider that not worth the effort and simply step out of your way (Se-ignoring).


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Aleksei said:


> This is pretty much demonstrably false with ILIs, for starters. An ILI's focus is typically negative and predicated on pointing out inefficiencies and errors in logic in the goings-on around them, which allows them to live a rational life (Ni +Ti). In general, IxIs lack initiative because they're fatalistic about the way events will unfold and consider trying to change anything not worth their effort.
> 
> The main difference between ILIs and SLIs is that ILIs are actually willing to step in and criticize what they consider an "incorrect" path, whereas SLIs consider that not worth the effort and simply step out of your way (Se-ignoring).


You're mixing up different information elements. ILI's criticize because they value -Te, while what I was talking about is their +Ni. These are two different aspects of the same type. No type is only all negative or all positive. Each type has some information elements with a minus some and some with a plus. 

If you have interacted with ILIs, you'll notice that they criticize not for the sake of criticizing and being negative, but as means of directing the person towards considering something more constructive and beneficial (+Se/+Ni). This is because Gamma is the quadra of "reconstructors". -Te/-Fi is needed for them to "get going", to see the faults and flaws of the past, but then they notice positive prospects and potential and quickly move themselves towards it. Such is the interplay of -Te/-Fi and +Ni/+Se.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

What you're describing is moreso related to cognitive style. You can see the same type of interaction in SEIs, EIEs, and LSEs -- a kind of guiding criticism, directing the person to a course of action. This is, for instance, part of what LSEs do for EIIs -- the EII overextends himself and the LSE steps in and helps makes the EII's life easier. 

At any rate if you're going with Model B the leading function of ILI is +Ni-Ne, so there is very much a focus on negative potential. The focus of ILIs is in avoiding avenues that are dead ends, which drives their characteristic fatalism.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

This discussion is quite inane, especially discussing the ILI where there are so many present on this forum who can speak for themselves and how they actually see things which is far more valuable than having people theorize _about _who we are. A few pointers: 

1. Pointless to say "this is paranoia and this is not paranoia" without first defining what paranoia is and what it means. If @Pancreatic Pandora thinks his dad is paranoid in this way, it's overly dismissive and stupid as fuck to say "they are not paranoid" just because they don't fit your idea of what paranoid really is. Like really, who the fuck are you to devalue the experience of someone else of their parent whom you've never fucking met, I should add? 

2. You can chalk up the critical attitude of the ILI to many causes and if you are going to be extremely reductionist about it, you should be looking at the negativist dichotomy since it explains why this is a prevalent feature in the other types who share the ILI's supervision ring. With that said, as an ILI myself I feel that @cyamitide hits it right on spot. It is our -Te that makes us see what doesn't work or won't work, but it is to seek to experience what actually does work. As above, so below. Similarly, for alpha, it would be -Fe and for beta -Se and delta -Ne. See a pattern?

3. And of course the IxI is fatalistic when Se is of 1D and they can only see what is actually of meaningful potential of where things can go in the present based on what _they currently experience_. That in itself does not necessarily denote that what the IxI truly seeks and in this case the ILI due to +Se, is *positive experience*. All it says is that our ability to grasp anything Se beyond the present moment is just really fucking suck. Well, duh.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Uhh.. Just to bring this topic back a bit.. 


Schweeeeks said:


> This explanation fits my ex well (no other Ni PoLR description has). Same with a few LSEs I know.
> 
> @_ScarlettHayden_ : Not ignoring you! I really don't understand Ni PoLR, like how to spot it, what it looks like, how to separate it in healthy vs unhealthy individuals.
> Hopefully other forum members will share their insights too.
> ...


I'm actually starting to think I use a lot of Se. Maybe it's my mobilising function which is really developed or I'm thinking it could even be in the creative function. I haven't read all the link yet but it said something about Ne POLR's unwilling to break things down and Ni POLR's sucking at centralising. For me my realism is based more on the former than the latter. I'm good at breaking things down but I prefer not to so much because it takes away from the present moment. Again this is a learned habit though because I used to have the very much Ni 'everywhere but here' mentality. Either way though, I doubt I'm Ni POLR.

Also, when it comes to democratic vs aristocratic, I prefer to see people who *they* are, rather than what a group of people they belong to says they are.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Entropic said:


> due to +Se, is *positive experience*.


Would this apply to all Se+ types because this is exactly what I seek for too. Except I'm not critical about it. Although as someone else wrote above I like to direct people towards something beneficial and constructive through vision of their own positive potential or perhaps just the potential of the situation, which from what I've read I assume is still an Se/Ni thing?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Would this apply to all Se+ types because this is exactly what I seek for too. Except I'm not critical about it. Although as someone else wrote above I like to direct people towards something beneficial and constructive through vision of their own positive potential or perhaps just the potential of the situation, which from what I've read I assume is still an Se/Ni thing?


If that's how you experience things, yes.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

Entropic said:


> If @Pancreatic Pandora thinks his dad is paranoid in this way, it's overly dismissive and stupid as fuck to say "they are not paranoid" just because they don't fit your idea of what paranoid really is. Like really, who the fuck are you to devalue the experience of someone else of their parent whom you've never fucking met, I should add?


Because I have no idea whether he has actually typed his dad correctly. I will assume he knows his dad better than I do, since I don't know his dad at all, but I tend to assume that when somebody says something inconsistent about X type the most likely explanation (until otherwise proven) is they've got it wrong. I haven't been disappointed very often on that front, thus far.

So some likely explanations are that he's got his dad's type wrong, he's misinterpreted something, or he's misphrased something. Just because he says his dad's LSE don't make it so, particularly when he follows it up with an explanation that is inconsistent with how 1D Ni manifests, and how Ni PoLR is described for LSE (which is consistent with everything else about LSE). I would thus be inclined to believe that Pandora's experience is legit, but his dad is just SLI or LSI rather than LSE.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Aleksei said:


> Because I have no idea whether he has actually typed his dad correctly. I will assume he knows his dad better than I do, since I don't know his dad at all, but I tend to assume that when somebody says something inconsistent about X type the most likely explanation (until otherwise proven) is they've got it wrong. I haven't been disappointed very often on that front, thus far.


It has nothing to do with whether his dad is correctly typed but whether he thinks it's a fair assessment to say that his dad, regardless of the type he is, is paranoid. You essentially objected to how the word paranoid was used in this context and dismissed Pancreatic Pandora on the basis that his dad is not an LSE because he does not fit your criteria of what it means to be paranoid which is frankly not very sound methodology.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

Wait what? I agree with PP's idea that his dad's paranoid, that's the problem. LSEs are defined as having a simplistic conception of the world where hard work pays off, and are disinclined to forecast unforeseen problems, something perfect consistent with having 1D, non-receptive Ni. Thus I would expect LSEs to be not particularly fearful about the future in the way PP described.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Aleksei said:


> Wait what? I agree with PP's idea that his dad's paranoid, that's the problem. LSEs are defined as having a simplistic conception of the world where hard work pays off, and are disinclined to forecast unforeseen problems, something perfect consistent with having 1D, non-receptive Ni. Thus I would expect LSEs to be not particularly fearful about the future in the way PP described.


Hence you claim he cannot be paranoid. You specifically wrote this:



> Yeah, but that's not the same as being paranoid about the future. Paranoia implies pessimism, which comes from basically imagining the worst that could happen.


You are claiming that PP's definition of paranoia isn't accurate or applicable when understanding the behavior of his dad, and since his dad doesn't fit your definition of paranoia he is not an LSE. Paranoia can appear in a lot of ways. I've seen it in my ESE grandmother who gets extremely anxious when she needs to plan ahead in advance and cannot stand how I know how to wait and when to do things at the right time or how much time a specific action takes. She will for example prepare for getting ready to the taxi 40 min before it'll arrive and be ready and wait for it 30 min ahead in time because she's not comfortable nor capable of telling when she actually needs to prepare. When I refuse to leave that early she gets extremely anxious about it because I know we need to leave at most 10 min before the time that was decided, and I know how much time it'll take me to get ready to go outside. She doesn't and never trusts my predictions on these things.

I wouldn't consider my grandmother paranoid though, not in this sense, as much as she's paranoid about say, my well-being where she worries that I might get shot down when walking home in the evening from my job. -_-

@cyamitide would you say the above is exemplary of -Si btw?


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Entropic said:


> If that's how you experience things, yes.


Thanks. Actually it's a good description of how I experience things.

I want to know what this example would be in terms of information elements and functions:

Usually when it comes to deciding things I want or like in social situations (for recreational reasons) I don't mind letting others choose because I usually have no idea what I would prefer and really I don't mind trying new things. But something I have noticed with my dad (who I am pretty sure IS an LSE) is that I find it very irritating when he tries to make my decisions for me based on what he thinks is 'best for me'. For example, he tries to choose my food because he thinks it's healthier and he tries organise my exercise activities based on what will keep me fittest.. He's always subliminally trying to persuade me into 'looking after myself better' despite the fact I feel I do a fine enough job on my own. I don't need his input.. It's like he doesn't realize there are different ways of going about things and in response I've become quite pushy with him in return. I've started trying to force my own way of doing things onto him as a sort of 'tough I'm doing it this way whether you like it or not' attitude. 

Don't mean to sound like I'm ranting or anything here.. I mean he is my dad after all. But I was just wondering which IM my irritation comes from in regards to his apparent creative Si?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Thanks. Actually it's a good description of how I experience things.
> 
> I want to know what this example would be in terms of information elements and functions:
> 
> ...


The most logical conclusion is your Si vs his Si. He is pushing you into Si activities he values, but one may wonder why you don't find it more of a sore spot so to speak. It seems you feel competent enough at deciding these things on your own which doesn't quite fit my notion of how the PoLR works being 1D. I think 1D Si would feel more uncomfortable being pressured this way when it is the PoLR of an xIE because they wouldn't be able to tell whether what is being suggested for them is truly meaningful or not. They may feel more resistant and not push back like you do because it would be taken more personally.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

@Aleksei I think this might just be an issue of what constitutes paranoia, like @Entropic said, and _from my perspective_, he does act paranoid. Which doesn't mean another person couldn't see him acting the same way and not call it paranoid. I find -Ne explains his sort of behaviour. The fact that his Ne is only 2D probably explains why many of the possibilities he comes up with are unlikely. He looks for negative potential and because of 2D that potential is sometimes far-fetched or doesn't adapt to the current situation.

You said:


> Yeah, but that's not the same as being paranoid about the future. Paranoia implies pessimism, which comes from basically imagining the worst that could happen. LSEs are disinclined to try to forecast the future or speculate about things, and simply believe that if they work hard enough things will come through for them.


And that is the case with my LSE dad, he sees things that could go wrong in the form of -Ne. He is not predicting the development of situations, it's more Ne-like.

And I'm pretty confident on my dad's LSE typing. Actually, what Entropic said about time perception regarding his ESE grandma fits my dad too =/.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Entropic said:


> The most logical conclusion is your Si vs his Si. He is pushing you into Si activities he values, but one may wonder why you don't find it more of a sore spot so to speak. It seems you feel competent enough at deciding these things on your own which doesn't quite fit my notion of how the PoLR works being 1D. I think 1D Si would feel more uncomfortable being pressured this way when it is the PoLR of an xIE because they wouldn't be able to tell whether what is being suggested for them is truly meaningful or not. They may feel more resistant and not push back like you do because it would be taken more personally.


Logically it makes sense. But I just read your thing about your grandma and I have the same approach to time as you. I always remember the quote from Dumbledore (which actually I think I wrote on my questionnaire) "a wizard is never late nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to", and for me I can predict exactly how much time I need to get ready and turn up on time perfectly on the dot.. And my Si-leading mother is always worrying that I'm going to be late for an appointment or something but I never am. I have a good sense of time. So.. I am just quite confused right now between which irrational functions I actually value more.

Unless I'm not really Te leading, could that explain it?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> Logically it makes sense. But I just read your thing about your grandma and I have the same approach to time as you. I always remember the quote from Dumbledore (which actually I think I wrote on my questionnaire) "a wizard is never late nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to", and for me I can predict exactly how much time I need to get ready and turn up on time perfectly on the dot.. And my Si-leading mother is always worrying that I'm going to be late for an appointment or something but I never am. I have a good sense of time. So.. I am just quite confused right now between which irrational functions I actually value more.
> 
> Unless I'm not really Te leading, could that explain it?


Yes. Stereotypically all Ni ego types would have a good sense of time, but IxI would be the best at it, obviously.


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