# Te employs the system, Fe enforces the paradigm.



## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Both are a slave to their system, but those called the healthiest have the best relationship with their masters. Only through unity with the system can it be properly employed.

For Te, it is more refreshing to use games as an example. Games have their own unique systems. Te is a scouting agent. Te looks for the strongest candidates to employ in the system that is there. Using the greatest sources of raw talent there, Te wins by brute force. It does not judge the system, only uses it. This is glaringly apparent in the way Te utilizes logic.

For Fe, the system is sacred. Fe looks at human interaction. But human interaction has different systems in different cultures. Take Salem for example. The existence of witches were the glaring disruption to the observed system of the culture. For harmony, the witches had to be destroyed, and in exemplary style, to discourage more disruption.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Wrong. Neither one of them possess systems and certainly they would not be slaves but the slave drivers.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I had a thought about the genesis of Fe. The Upanishads. This comes from a word meaning, "to sit next to, or around." Fi came first. Fi was troubled. Looking for answers. Lost in this world. It walks to the sage. It sits at his feet. And that was when Fe was first given to humanity. From the wise man. Fi has questions. Fe has answers. Fe was created, by Fi's cry for help.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I had a thought about the genesis of Fe. The Upanishads. This comes from a word meaning, "to sit next to, or around." Fi came first. Fi was troubled. Looking for answers. Lost in this world. It walks to the sage. It sits at his feet. And that was when Fe was first given to humanity. From the wise man. Fi has questions. Fe has answers. Fe was created, by Fi's cry for help.


Are you familiar with Master/Slave Morality?


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## owlboy (Oct 28, 2010)

Fe thinks in terms of social hierarchy [ie your worth as a person is determined by how your actions objectively impact the social climate around you] but that doesn't make it slavish or conformist or anything of that sort at all.

While Fi sees authenticity as being rooted in one's committment to their personal values, Fe sees authenticity in one's comittment to their social role. ''Mother'', ''father'', ''teacher'', ''President'' etc are all social roles that come with inherent obligations, but so is ''bomb-throwing anarchist freedom fighter''. An Fe type has equal agency in choosing any of these roles.

Perhaps there should be a sticky post on common misconceptions so we don't have to have the same conversations over and over.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

People in Salem were apparently tripping balls.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I had a thought about the genesis of Fe. The Upanishads. This comes from a word meaning, "to sit next to, or around." Fi came first. Fi was troubled. Looking for answers. Lost in this world. It walks to the sage. It sits at his feet. And that was when Fe was first given to humanity. From the wise man. Fi has questions. Fe has answers. Fe was created, by Fi's cry for help.


No, it's more like Fi genuinely feels out themselves, then feels out the world, honing in on what is humanely congruent to themselves, and hopefully later evolving to identifying philosophically these themes in all of humanity, through understanding the self in others, including animals or other living things sometimes, not only humans. 

Fe then takes what Fi found out, puts a dress and a hat on it, and forms social order around it. We are the sages, you're just the person planning the party.

Seriously it's my deep and not so secret belief that Jesus learned from far east teachers between 13-30, which is why he disappeared in the Bible. Jesus was an xNFJ, and he simply evangelized and brought to the people a new order, from ideas he picked up from Ji types who sat around contemplating Taoist or Buddhist principles, using his Ni to synthesize it with Judaism.


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## owlboy (Oct 28, 2010)

Thalassa said:


> No, it's more like Fi genuinely feels out themselves, then feels out the world, honing in on what is humanely congruent to themselves, and hopefully later evolving to identifying philosophically these themes in all of humanity, through understanding the self in others, including animals or other living things sometimes, not only humans.
> 
> Fe then takes what Fi found out, puts a dress and a hat on it, and forms social order around it. We are the sages, you're just the person planning the party.


Ah, Fi's. Ya'll can't talk about Fe without insinuating it's shallow and inauthentic. <3



> Seriously it's my deep and not so secret belief that Jesus learned from far east teachers between 13-30, which is why he disappeared in the Bible. Jesus was an xNFJ, and he simply evangelized and brought to the people a new order, from ideas he picked up from Ji types who sat around contemplating Taoist or Buddhist principles, using his Ni to synthesize it with Judaism.


You might be interested in this. It hypothesizes that Jesus was an ENFP.


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## owlboy (Oct 28, 2010)

As another example of Fe, here's a quote from BBC's Sherlock. 

''People like Magnussen should be killed. That's why there are people like me.''

Explanation under the tags.


* *





Mary Morstan is not what you would call an enforcer of the paradigm. She's a rogue assassin who shot her own husband's best friend and is in a fair amount of trouble with some scary people.

But this is an entirely Fe perspective [Mary is an ESTP, I think]. She has carved out a social niche for herself and defined herself as ''the assassin'', someone who's job it is to take out the truly evil trash like Magnussen, for the sake of the greater good. 

Her social worth / self worth comes more from her _committment to the role_ than her committment to performing it without tarnishing her own soul [Fi]. Lying, cheating, stealing, shooting your husband's bff, etc are not exactly _acceptable_ actions to take, but are _understandable_ in the pursuit of _being authentic to her role_.

If her committment to that role means she has to wreak havoc and murder someone like Magnussen [who IS an enforcer of the paradigm, a truly evil one, who has the power / privilege to perform any role he wants but chooses to bring nothing of worth to society] for the greater good of the world, so be it. 

[And all of this is her choice. She's not an assassin because the social climate around her has deemed assassins morally good and she's a sheeplike conformist following orders. She's an assassin because she sees a social role that needs to be filled and she's willing to fill it and play the part in pursuit of greater social harmony.]





THAT'S how Fe works. Nothing to do with slaves and slave drivers or party hats or ''the paradigm'' or whatever. It's perfectly capable of opposing ''the paradigm'' [and violently so] if ''the paradigm'' is cancerous.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Thalassa said:


> No, it's more like Fi genuinely feels out themselves, then feels out the world, honing in on what is humanely congruent to themselves, and hopefully later evolving to identifying philosophically these themes in all of humanity, through understanding the self in others, including animals or other living things sometimes, not only humans.
> 
> Fe then takes what Fi found out, puts a dress and a hat on it, and forms social order around it. We are the sages, you're just the person planning the party.
> 
> Seriously it's my deep and not so secret belief that Jesus learned from far east teachers between 13-30, which is why he disappeared in the Bible. Jesus was an xNFJ, and he simply evangelized and brought to the people a new order, from ideas he picked up from Ji types who sat around contemplating Taoist or Buddhist principles, using his Ni to synthesize it with Judaism.


 Did guys like Plato and Aristotle steal from the East too?

Do you really think Eastern philosophy is judging ? It is perceiving to the max. It is the west that is so rational. Cannot reconcile opposites. It was the Eastern guys who were using Ni, and Jesus clumsily did whatever he did, and made a mess out of everything. It is the western world, who starts with the "I". Exactly. Feel yourself out first. Descartes. Kant. Jesus. Compare them to Taoists. They believe the self is an illusion. The west believes it is everything. 

For the love of perception:

"Wu-wei is spontaneous action. - Spontaneous action - of which Nature (Tao) was the grand practitioner. This action of Nature was real action. The second was action taken with design, premeditated, and directed to chosen ends. This, however attractive it might seem, was a forcing of Nature and therefore unreal.

Wu-wei is creative intuition. - The principle of wu-wei is entirely an action of creative intuition, which opens the well-springs WITHIN man. While the action of assertion, man's common tendency, is preconceptual and rational, it cannot penetrate the hidden recesses of creativity. The action of assertion is viewed from the externals of intellection, while the action of non-assertion is activated by the inner light. The former action is limited and finite, the latter free and limitless.

Perception is the way of truth.- Not conviction, not method, but perception is the way of truth. It is a state of effortless awareness, pliable awareness, choiceless awareness.

The perceiving mind understands truth. - There is no condemnation, no demand for a pattern of action in understanding. You are merely observing-just look at it and watch it. The perceiving mind is living, moving, full of energy, and only such a mind can understand what truth is. To see a thing uncoloured by one's own personal preferences and desires is to see it in its own pristine Simplicity.

Choiceless awareness is total comprehension. - Choiceless awareness: non-duality and reconciliation = TOTAL understanding. The choiceless awareness of a single and undivided mind.

Perception is awareness without choice. - There is an awareness without choice, without any demand, an awareness in which there is no anxiety; and in that state of mind there is perception. It is the perception alone that will resolve all our problems."


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

WT_Neptune said:


> Both are a slave to their system, but those called the healthiest have the best relationship with their masters. Only through unity with the system can it be properly employed.
> 
> For Te, it is more refreshing to use games as an example. Games have their own unique systems. Te is a scouting agent. Te looks for the strongest candidates to employ in the system that is there. Using the greatest sources of raw talent there, Te wins by brute force. It does not judge the system, only uses it. This is glaringly apparent in the way Te utilizes logic.
> 
> For Fe, the system is sacred. Fe looks at human interaction. But human interaction has different systems in different cultures. Take Salem for example. The existence of witches were the glaring disruption to the observed system of the culture. For harmony, the witches had to be destroyed, and in exemplary style, to discourage more disruption.


you are talking about Te and Fe as dom function.

an ESFJ will definitely stamp out the witches in order to preserve the peace

its very easy for Fe dom and aux users to do good in the name of evil xD because they feel like they are serving humanity and benefiting it. i am sure back in the days, some of the best witch hunters were SFJs


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

johnson.han.3 said:


> you are talking about Te and Fe as dom function.
> 
> an ESFJ will definitely stamp out the witches in order to preserve the peace
> 
> its very easy for Fe dom and aux users to do good in the name of evil xD because they feel like they are serving humanity and benefiting it. i am sure back in the days, some of the best witch hunters were SFJs


Not necessarily. My mother is an ESFJ, and would make me apologize to the witches if I talked shit to them. 

When I think of an ESFJ, I think of Sookie Stackhouse. She is too accepting, but she is always the same. She is always upholding Fe. Like one time when a bunch of vampires came upon those witches, and were gonna kill them. Sookie said they were good guys, and not to hurt them. Sookie is an idiot, but she is a consistent idiot. I would be trying to get those witches killed, or pushing an agenda. You can't trust me in that situation. You can always trust Sookie in that situation though. She is always true to group values.


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## owlboy (Oct 28, 2010)

johnson.han.3 said:


> an ESFJ will definitely stamp out the witches in order to preserve the peace


Fe is not mindless groupthink.

An ESFJ is just as capable as sticking up for the oppressed as they are of doing the oppressing. Whether burning witches or saving them is more or less of a disruption to the social fabric depends on your point of view, and an Fe is entirely capable of considering both and aligning with a less popular one if they want to.

I'm sick to death of this idea that high Fe types just glom onto the most popular view that everyone else is espousing and unthinkingly carry out what is expected of them.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Not necessarily. My mother is an ESFJ, and would make me apologize to the witches if I talked shit to them.
> 
> When I think of an ESFJ, I think of Sookie Stackhouse. She is too accepting, but she is always the same. She is always upholding Fe. Like one time when a bunch of vampires came upon those witches, and were gonna kill them. Sookie said they were good guys, and not to hurt them. Sookie is an idiot, but she is a consistent idiot. I would be trying to get those witches killed, or pushing an agenda. You can't trust me in that situation. You can always trust Sookie in that situation though. She is always true to group values.


no, she will make you apologize to witches now, because nowadays its not socially acceptable to hate on witches. back in the day where witches are public enemy number 1, its very different. for them, they see it as protecting the group from harm. our society have shifted, and became more enlightened, therefor ESFJ also became enlightened.

for ISFJ, it depends really on what they hold dear in their Si, so they also can be excellent witch hunters too. ISFJ will not comform the same way ESFJ does, but if they think witch burning is correct, then they will do it in the name of righteousness. I suddenly have the urge for a nice pitch fork xD.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

owlboy said:


> Fe is not mindless groupthink.
> 
> An ESFJ is just as capable as sticking up for the oppressed as they are of doing the oppressing. Whether burning witches or saving them is more or less of a disruption to the social fabric depends on your point of view, and an Fe is entirely capable of considering both and aligning with a less popular one if they want to.
> 
> I'm sick to death of this idea that high Fe types just glom onto the most popular view that everyone else is espousing and unthinkingly carry out what is expected of them.


Fe is more about keeping the group, safe, and harmonious, rather than group think. I emphasize the word *right*, because thats what SFJs do. they do what they think is right.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

johnson.han.3 said:


> no, she will make you apologize to witches now, because nowadays its not socially acceptable to hate on witches. back in the day where witches are public enemy number 1, its very different. for them, they see it as protecting the group from harm. our society have shifted, and became more enlightened, therefor ESFJ also became enlightened.
> 
> for ISFJ, it depends really on what they hold dear in their Si, so they also can be excellent witch hunters too. ISFJ will not comform the same way ESFJ does, but if they think witch burning is correct, then they will do it in the name of righteousness. I suddenly have the urge for a nice pitch fork xD.


Fe and Te are objective. They see things blindly. Like lady justice. If the world said the world was flat, would Te go along with it? Te and Fe go against group opinion all the time. They often see themselves as purists, and try to convince the group they are going about things the wrong way, and try to correct it. Fe and Te are about correction. All they need is one fact on their side, and that is all that matters. It is not consensus.


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## Bash (Nov 19, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Fe and Te are objective. They see things blindly. Like lady justice. If the world said the world was flat, would Te go along with it? Te and Fe go against group opinion all the time. They often see themselves as purists, and try to convince the group they are going about things the wrong way, and try to correct it. Fe and Te are about correction. All they need is one fact on their side, and that is all that matters. It is not consensus.


In that case, I would for the sake of practicality agree on it.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Fe and Te are objective. They see things blindly. Like lady justice. If the world said the world was flat, would Te go along with it? Te and Fe go against group opinion all the time. They often see themselves as purists, and try to convince the group they are going about things the wrong way, and try to correct it. Fe and Te are about correction. All they need is one fact on their side, and that is all that matters. It is not consensus.


its not so much Fe going along with the group, its more on the level of protecting the group. if they view witches as a threat to their group, then they will go after them. if ESFJ feel that they are in charge of a group of people who fear clowns, ESFJ will definitely kick clowns to the curb in order to keep their group happy. people see this and think you ESFJ is just doing what other people want, but the truth is, ESFJ are making a logical decision that they think will protect the group.

ESFJ as a whole are not mindless people. they have very powerful influence over other people, and usually make great leaders as well.


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

johnson.han.3 said:


> Fe is more about keeping the group, safe, and harmonious, rather than group think. I emphasize the word *right*, because thats what SFJs do. they do what they think is right.


But what if the Fe was a witch? 

Also, despite popular belief, Fe is not simply "social value" as in what society thinks is right. The 'e' part of Fe doesn't care if the object is society, your parents, your bff, or even a stranger. Perhaps SFJs are more likely to adhere to a social value, but not all Fe types necessarily will. My ENFJ girlfriend doesn't care about a lot of social norms. She can appear very "thinker-ish" with her bluntness and other behaviours. She is definitely a Fe-dom though because everything she does is based on group harmony. However, having grown up around thinkers her whole life, her behaviour seems less sensitive to the feelings of others, because that is the social norm that she grew up in.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

johnson.han.3 said:


> its not so much Fe going along with the group, its more on the level of protecting the group. if they view witches as a threat to their group, then they will go after them. if ESFJ feel that they are in charge of a group of people who fear clowns, ESFJ will definitely kick clowns to the curb in order to keep their group happy. people see this and think you ESFJ is just doing what other people want, but the truth is, ESFJ are making a logical decision that they think will protect the group.


Take the Civil Rights Movement in the United States. Both Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X are using Fe, they are protecting their group, but with totally different ideologies. With the same goal, for the same people. You said that Fe only goes along with what is socially acceptable. How do you explain guys like MLK then? Were the institutions in the US he was fighting, using Fe? Who was protecting the institutions of segregation? It was socially acceptable. 

Fe is actually more diplomatic and conciliatory. It is willing to make peace and reach out to the enemy.


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