# Broke guys shouldn’t pursue girls



## salt (Jun 22, 2015)

if you cant get a first date, or if the first date fails because she perceives you as too poor, shes not a gold-digger. 
most girls are NOT gold-digger, youre just TOO poor man.
i hate those “social experiment” videos where the guy arrives in a fucking sad bicycle, the girl declines. when hes in a lambo, the girl accepts. well its because you were TOO poor, you can just arrive in a normal car/scooter, if she declines then ONLY then is she a gold-digger.
if youre attractive, your income/allowance/family is just normal, average earning, she will accept you.
you do NOT have to be rich, just dont be TOO poor.
cuz being your girlfriend is just miserable for her, and if you care about her, you should either work harder, or please break up with her early on.
cuz i know girlfriends out there who just broke up with their boyfriend or whatever and theyre miserable, so they accept any dick to fade out the sad.
and in the far future, ya could be so in love but you marry each other, and babies come. unless shes a strong independent woman who can be the breadmaker for your family, if shes just average income earning and youre broke af, do you want your children to live in poverty? i know i dont, id rather not have a baby in the first place. my kids should at least live a normal life, not a brokeass life. bye


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

Agreed, while i do not pursue relationship I would never even try to do so if i was broke, that would mean i have nothing to bring to the table. As for gold digging pranks on yt - I saw some and they are so visibly scripted it hurts, girls are turning around to see this lambo in such artificial way that is very unlikely to happen in RL


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## marybluesky (Apr 23, 2012)

People have different expectations.
Personally, I don't care about a guy's car/income as I'm a fan of public transportation & prefer down town hangouts of students and artists with fairly low prices (though I've finished the school four years ago). I'm also willing to go Dutch. It should have something with my independent upbringing: my own family isn't rich, I've never though of being materially pampered by my SO, financial dependency is scary in my eyes, I don't like to have children. All that while I come from and live in a traditional society that puts much importance on gender roles.
On the other hand, I'm not willing to play the traditional female role: being unconditionally nurturing and affectionate, discreet about sexuality, submissive, etc.


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## Zeta 97 (Sep 29, 2018)

Honestly money shouldn't matter that much. As long as the guy is bettering himself and is adleast trying to get a stable job or has a stable job that is enough. It's obviously a different story if the guy is super lazy and just wants to leech of his girlfriend then I agree yes don't burden a person with that. But money isn't everything and not everyone is so superficial. In my opinion people place too much emphasis on money and material possessions these days and not enough on human connections etc.Tho I have to say I do agree with the bit u have there about kids, if people know they can't give their kids the best possible life they they should hold off on having kids for awhile.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

salt said:


> if you cant get a first date, or if the first date fails because she perceives you as too poor, shes not a gold-digger.
> most girls are NOT gold-digger, youre just TOO poor man.
> i hate those “social experiment” videos where the guy arrives in a fucking sad bicycle, the girl declines. when hes in a lambo, the girl accepts. well its because you were TOO poor, you can just arrive in a normal car/scooter, if she declines then ONLY then is she a gold-digger.
> if youre attractive, your income/allowance/family is just normal, average earning, she will accept you.
> ...


Dutch or die, my friendo. If he can handle himself there's no need to be salty.

I wouldn't mind being sole breadwinner if he's okay housekeeping. Coming to the relationship with the notion that you're entitled to use the guy financially for your pet project (kids) does make you a gold digger by the way. 

If it's a joint project it only matters that both parties get the job done with equivalent contributions. 
Different arrangements can still get the job done.

Also I would pass up on kids if the relationship makes up for it in other ways. Not every relationship is suited for it.

It's kinda narrow minded to suggest men should abide by your standards and that women have your priorities.


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## Disguy (Sep 30, 2018)

I had to laugh out loud with this one. Let the poor guy pursue what he wants, and if he's accepted than he knows she'll stick by him through thick and thin, then one day when they work together into pursuing a more comfortable future at least he knows she loves him more than that 50 cents he makes each day. That's true love. Watch "coming to America"


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

The way it matters is that it changes his perception of himself.

Women with pure motives want to be honestly loved to feel fulfilled romantically.

Men with pure motives want to be respected to feel fulfilled romantically. 

But, he can't accept respect he doesn't feel he earned, when he can't respect himself.

The result with a super poor guy is he's going to punish the lady for whatever he feels his own shortcomings are, because he can only see what's wrong with her that she isn't noticing what's wrong with him.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Age is a factor. I don't expect guys around my age (still in school) to have any money. Homemade sandwiches amid a litter of library books on a park(ed) picnic blanket works (trust fund babies with their parent's cash to burn don't impress me). Fast forward a decade though... I'll have _very_ different expectations. 

It's not really about money in a way. It's about work ethic, resourcefulness, mental fortitude, responsibility and just generally having your shit together (things I personally value). Those qualities are attractive to me, not the cash that flows from it -- I need to be able to respect him as a person. I also can't help have a negative visceral reaction to the thought of being the sole income earner or being with a lazy person (yuck!).

That said, I'd rather he does what's right for him overall than go after max income (better to be in a fulfilling career that suits his strengths, not a workaholic etc). That self-valuing is attractive. So there is a balance there. Also, in the game of economics, opportunitie$ differ, so if I got a lucky break and (future) husband never did, that would be okay (no resentment).

Basically I just want to be with my true match, we both do our best in all areas of life and support one another as people (not as ATM machines). The money side will work itself out from there (both in terms of happening but also falling into the minor role overall it should play). Financial dependence doesn't scare me (as others mentioned) but my natural inclination is to help/do all I can too (I <3 teamwork 

I think women who intend on being a SAHM with children have every right to evaluate for earning potential in a partner (not that you can't work from home in some capacity these days, time allowing). I find people who deny the fundamental importance of money just as silly as those who place too much importance on it (hold it above all else). By not having enough you move money from being in a minor role to a major role (on your mind, source of frustration, issues etc). A beautiful relationship shouldn't be marred by such ugliness.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

salt said:


> i hate those “social experiment” videos where the guy arrives in a fucking sad bicycle, the girl declines. when hes in a lambo, the girl accepts.


You obviously haven't live enough yet, and obviously you can't even do-provide what you expect from guys. It's not related directly to the topic because to your surprise, I'm not far from "agreeing", I will explain myself below, but I say what I say for perspective because I remember your post history (I have a veeeery good memory) and really, you have issues, specially anger, there is always a rant and almost never an answer even if people ask you direct questions, you my friend have issues and life will not provide you flowers until you learn to grow them yourself.



marybluesky said:


> Personally, I don't care about a guy's car/income as I'm a fan of public transportation & prefer down town hangouts of students and artists with fairly low prices (though I've finished the school four years ago). I'm also willing to go Dutch. It should have something with my independent upbringing: my own family isn't rich....


Nice post, sounds like someone really independent and with life background (alive). I have a car, also have a bike, and I always walk when I can and sometimes do things on purpose to extend the walks, I'm a walker, walking and running = good health. 

At around 25 years old I just couldn't stand women who refuse to walk or use public transportation so it became an automatic filter. Many women (at least in my area) don't understand why walking if you have a car and you are not cheap (not about money). *I just prefer women with their feet on the ground*  to me it's not about money, gold diggers, etc, it's about common sense, health, being realistic and this also brings compatible ideas (like your post that I happen to like quite a bit).




Disguy said:


> I had to laugh out loud with this one. Let the poor guy pursue what he wants, and if he's accepted than he knows she'll stick by him through thick and thin, then one day when they work together into pursuing a more comfortable future at least he knows she loves him more than that 50 cents he makes each day. That's true love. Watch "coming to America"


That's very well said. Couples should start at some point right? there is a post around here (very old) how many women expectations fit ancient tales of being nothing and expecting a prince or king with a castle. BTW... Yes I make clear I agree with you, nice wording.


Yet, while I don't agree with the original poster because she has a story... *I do see a point*. The title says "*broke guys shouldn't pursue girls*" that's quite valid, just as valid as:

- bitter women/men shouldn't pursue relationships
- broke people shouldn't expect happiness coming from another person
- boring people shouldn't pursue or expect smart people
- liars shouldn't pursue people telling the truth
- people refusing to have their feet on the ground shouldn't pursue relationships with people who do have their feet on the ground


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

"Broke guys shouldn't pursue girls" reminded me of advice from a very old friend (and yes, older than us). He asked younger guys on the team (doesn't matter) *why are you after that girl? to feed her with you mommy's money?* I honestly thought he had a point at that stage of my life (many years ago), people (PEOPLE) pursuing relationships if they can't feed themselves, pay the rent, pay their expenses, PAY THEIR DEBT or quite related: unsure of their fertility but talking about children.

I believe there is a valid point there. There was a thread on X forum regarding broke guys and what they do to pursue women even if they are broke. Well, it's all a lie, a terrible lie. My opinion on that forum was: if you can't afford dinner for 1, you can't afford dinner for 2, and that doesn't mean you have to pay "her" dinner. But overall if you can't afford a relationship: don't seek one.

The opinions were abundant on "you have the right to do whatever you want even if what you say is not true to get it", I disagree. In that regard those liars get what they deserve, and the women who believe their lies about money also get what they deserve. *Relationships are expensive, specially the free bits*.

BTW, by personal experience, a lot of men and women who walk... or ride a bike, fuck! they have it all figured out, own a house, own a car, etc but they just don't make it public because... because.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Idk salt, riding that bike is good for their legs and the environment your kids may live in in the future. Are you thinking about all the factors? If they are poor, they likely value something above money that conflicts with their ability to make money. That said, money is important but it's not super important. It can always be made with a bit of work, work that the bicyclist can do a lot better than the investment broker. 

Let's see I've walked over 100 miles in the last few days, carrying 25 pounds or so the whole time. I saved how much energy and pollution in this process? A lot. The problem is US, because the majority will just drive too much and not make the uncomfortable changes for the sake of something bigger. Why cook when you have money? Why work harder when you have money? Why care about the issues of the world when you have money? Idk seems like the poor person is doing a lot of things right and getting no credit for it because they don't use their cooking skills to make money, or their charm to market, or their work ethic to damage the world. 

That's just me though. And it's not like I'm not looking for a job either. I just want a job I can feel like is actually beneficial to the world. It's tough to find or even get started on my own because money is only interested in making more money, not interested in making powerful changes. 

To me that's the same as well, it's the same as eating just to have energy to buy and cook and eat more food. Which is gluttony, and the former is avarice. Deadly sins. 

They call me slothful because I make no money, when they are the slothful ones by driving in their cars, sitting at desks, and polluting the world. Yeah I'm the lazy one having to walk everywhere right? 

Some days I sleep all day because I am sore all day and I need a break from the walking and the noise of cars and need to be surrounded by things that actually are good for this world, like... myself. Trees. Rainfall. Etc. Things that aren't even a part of the economy. There are holes in everybody, I like to fill mine with natural good things instead of pollution and power and greed, etc. 

The world is addicted and not even enjoying the world. I'm waiting on the world to change... but it hasn't. Because if no one took the buses or drove the cars, it would impact their lives on every level financially, socially, and practically. Yet the cars are the problem, not just because of pollution but because of how they impact us. They enable us to be even less active. Which is good, but should not be relied on. Everyone needs to come off these addictions that are hurting us individually and collectively and make changes for the sake of the future. 

Money isn't the right change lol. Because money just means you waste your time and energy on making the money, which likely means your job itself isn't changing the world. Why does volunteer work have to be unpaid? See I can't find a job that is helpful in an effective way for the sake of something better. So I am invisible. Not a part of the flawed system. And it's mostly going to stay that way.


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## marybluesky (Apr 23, 2012)

Dare said:


> *I find people who deny the fundamental importance of money just as silly as those who place too much importance on it (hold it above all else)*. By not having enough you move money from being in a minor role to a major role (on your mind, source of frustration, issues etc). *A beautiful relationship shouldn't be marred by such ugliness.*


 It depends on the type of relationship people want. If a couple doesn't plan to have children and anyone is able to pay for him/herself, I can't see why not caring about making more money is silly. Even if it's mediocre in others' eyes.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

marybluesky said:


> It depends on the type of relationship people want. If a couple doesn't plan to have children and *anyone is able to pay for him/herself*, I can't see why not caring about making *more money* is silly. Even if it's mediocre in others' eyes.


I never said anything about "more money", although I did refer to "enough" (which is relative). I'm sure you agree people should earn enough to pay for their most basic bills... Anyone who is paying for themselves obviously cares about money (to some extent) -- I wasn't referring to a particular standard of living or to independent types when I spoke about those who deny the importance of money. 

I was referring to head-in-the-clouds idealists who (conveniently) have other people pay for them while they spout their 'money doesn't matter la la la' denial (I had an entitled fairy friend like this). It's the worst combination bc they don't do for themselves (or even help/participate) but nor are they grateful for what others do for them (bc money has no value to her -- she thought someone/a stranger with a second home should let her stay there for free, forever). Not surprisingly, since she refused to change, we dropped her from our friend group. 

I dislike people like that just as much as I dislike people who value nothing but money. You are clearly neither extreme.


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)




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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Dare said:


> Anyone who is paying for themselves *obviously cares about money *(to some extent) -- I wasn't referring to a particular standard of living or to independent types when I spoke about those who deny the importance of money.


I'm extracting that word from your post and I'm not referring here to your post or your opinion, just that word: care, in fact "_care(ing) about money_". I'm not English native and while I understand it and there are direct translations, language and words can be seen differently (from another culture, translation, etc) there are good documentaries about this.

My point is... there are very good threads on the INTJ world about money. Interesting enough, many intjs don't care about money, many intjs do have money, some have lots of it, and some only care about the things you can buy (the toys) but no real caring. This is very interesting. This thread reminded me of very good ones on other forums about people caring so much for the money, discussing with INTJS who... meh... wtf, it's just money. Sometimes people care a lot about the things they don't have. It's funny, there are threads on the intj world about intelligence/skills and money like "_so if you can do this and that, why don't you make more money?, why aren't you wealthy_?" and some answers are long, some are boring, most mostly go around lennon song: I'm just sitting here watching the wheels... it's funny.

I remember dates where the other person was so interested and concerned about WHY I don't spend the money as she would... all of them are lost in the past, I quickly lost interest on them. But I'm just (as said before) referring to caring about money. Due to your post history I know you don't mean caring or not caring as if it's not important. I'm just saying. A lot of people just know it's useful printed paper.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

changos said:


> I remember dates where the other person was so interested and concerned about WHY I don't spend the money as she would... all of them are lost in the past


Just want to share a real life story. I had this GF, long term relationship. _Her father is wealthy_ (separated from his 1st wife). He kept contact, he is a hard worker but while he has a big, amazing truck, he has lots of exactly the same pants and shirts and dress the same every day except Sundays.

One day they walked in front of a store selling expensive jackets, she told him how great he would look with that, he show no interest. She insisted, he kept quiet. Then he asked her "why don't you buy one for you?" she replied "Wish I could but I don't have the money, but you do, buy one for you".

He said later:
I have the money to buy a whole set of those but I don't want to, I don't need to and I don't care. Then why YOU, having no money to even afford ONE..., pretend to tell me what to do with my money?????

Everyone can do whatever they want with their money, but don't allow to get you confused with the thread, this is just a classic discussion of angry woman regarding men who don't do as they say or expect. The end, you are welcome.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

changos said:


> Just want to share a real life story. I had this GF, long term relationship. _Her father is wealthy_ (separated from his 1st wife). He kept contact, he is a hard worker but while he has a big, amazing truck, he has lots of exactly the same pants and shirts and dress the same every day except Sundays.
> 
> One day they walked in front of a store selling expensive jackets, she told him how great he would look with that, he show no interest. She insisted, he kept quiet. Then he asked her "why don't you buy one for you?" she replied "Wish I could but I don't have the money, but you do, buy one for you".
> 
> ...


That's to me equivalent of someone going to the gym every day and getting buff but never actually using that strength to... live. What's the point of the strength? To feel comfortable? Security? Why not use that strength to either help the weak or do incredible things like run a marathon, fight people, etc. Strength is not valued though because of technology being stronger than we are. Stronger, faster, more efficient. Why try? Why not just let it be done by the more qualified instead of doing strong person things? 

Patience is good. Calculation is good. But honestly that money should be spent, it shouldn't stay in your pocket unless you need it there. She suggested better clothes because his wardrobe is basic, which is a perfect idea. Would it be different if he got it for Christmas? Why? Because it's not his money? He's afraid of spending.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

*Ugly Girls Shouldn't Pursue Guys*
[HR][/HR]
if you cant get a first date, or if the first date fails because he perceives you as too ugly, hes not shallow. 
most guys are NOT shallow, youre just TOO ugly.
i hate those “social experiment” videos where the girl arrives looking ugly, the guy declines. when shes prettied up, the guy accepts. well its because you were TOO ugly, you can just arrive in normal clothes/health, if he declines then ONLY then is he a shallow.
if youre attractive, your income/allowance/family is just normal, average earning, he will accept you.
you do NOT have to be a 10/10 model, just dont be TOO ugly.
cuz being your boyfriend is just miserable for him, and if you care about him, you should either work harder, or please break up with him early on.
cuz i know guy friends out there who just broke up with their girlfriend or whatever and theyre miserable, so they accept any pussy to fade out the sad.
and in the far future, ya could be so in love but you marry each other, and babies come. unless hes a strong independent man who can be the breadmaker for your family, if hes just average income earning and youre broke af, do you want your children to live in poverty or to be ugly? i know i dont, id rather not have a baby in the first place. my kids should at least live a normal life, not a brokeass or ugly life. bye


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Assuming he is broke - but still attractive 
_
What he does:_

1.) Muscle building/fitness
2.) Regularly provide coitus and oral sex
3.) Own car/transport to reach me
4.) Goddess worship - keep oil up to date in my car
5.) Add intellectual/emotional stimulus or value to my life
_
What I do:_

1.) Continue to accummulate wealth/increase resources
2.) Maintain physical attractivenesss/feminine grooming
3.) Be supportive


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## ponpiri (Apr 30, 2017)

Broke men can do whatever the hell they want, just know they ain't doing it with _me_.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

ponpiri said:


> Broke men can do whatever the hell they want, just know they ain't doing it with _me_.


It's always funny reading something like this because being broke is often temporary. Reminds me of that c lo green song "fuck you" after he got rich.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Catwalk said:


> Assuming he is broke - but still attractive
> _
> What he does:_
> 
> ...


You're so Te...


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Stelliferous said:


> That's to me equivalent of someone going to the gym every day and getting buff but never actually using that strength to... live. What's the point of the strength? To feel comfortable? Security? Why not use that strength to either help the weak or do incredible things like run a marathon, fight people, etc. Strength is not valued though because of technology being stronger than we are. Stronger, faster, more efficient. Why try? Why not just let it be done by the more qualified instead of doing strong person things?


Can't say I disagree, what you describe is valid, makes sense, totally logical. Yet I see a lot of options and possibilities that also make sense (or in fact, other situations where things don't make any sense just like in money).

A lot of people build muscle and do zero work with them, not even taking the trash out. So buff but don't even help moving heavy stuff, they actually get buff only to look certain way (or to compensate something). I've been into sports most my life and I lost count the amount of people who go to the gym but refuse to walk, lift something heavy, etc, not to mention the amount of people who aren't really strong despite their muscle (countless stories about it). Same as using the strength to help weak people or run a marathon, that fits the "why don't you do what I want with what you have" and makes no sense, just like many women complaining why men don't do what they want with their money. It's also like working and having other people telling you what to do with your money, that's one part I see as valid on that story (about her dad), he works hard, she doesn't, why should she have more right to tell him what to do? she doesn't have that right. Perhaps he has that money because he refuses to spend it that way.

But yes, there is space to talk about waste, and absurd investments of time, energy and money. My uncle is a terrible case of a man who made money (using other people's money) because he worked in banks, he is totally ruined, with debts, and due to what I think is a psychological problem, any money he can get his hands on... he invest it on land, land on terrible places. Years go by (5, 10, 20, 30) and he still eats shit, terrible finances but lots of land. When he is cold or hungry he can't do shit about it, nobody is interested on his terrible investments, enough said: he fits the mental issue of those people keeping lots of useless things around.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

changos said:


> Can't say I disagree, what you describe is valid, makes sense, totally logical. Yet I see a lot of options and possibilities that also make sense (or in fact, other situations where things don't make any sense just like in money).
> 
> A lot of people build muscle and do zero work with them, not even taking the trash out. So buff but don't even help moving heavy stuff, they actually get buff only to look certain way (or to compensate something). I've been into sports most my life and I lost count the amount of people who go to the gym but refuse to walk, lift something heavy, etc, not to mention the amount of people who aren't really strong despite their muscle (countless stories about it). Same as using the strength to help weak people or run a marathon, that fits the "why don't you do what I want with what you have" and makes no sense, just like many women complaining why men don't do what they want with their money. It's also like working and having other people telling you what to do with your money, that's one part I see as valid on that story (about her dad), he works hard, she doesn't, why should she have more right to tell him what to do? she doesn't have that right. Perhaps he has that money because he refuses to spend it that way.
> 
> But yes, there is space to talk about waste, and absurd investments of time, energy and money. My uncle is a terrible case of a man who made money (using other people's money) because he worked in banks, he is totally ruined, with debts, and due to what I think is a psychological problem, any money he can get his hands on... he invest it on land, land on terrible places. Years go by (5, 10, 20, 30) and he still eats shit, terrible finances but lots of land. When he is cold or hungry he can't do shit about it, nobody is interested on his terrible investments, enough said: he fits the mental issue of those people keeping lots of useless things around.


Yeah but I mean the female not having money... at a certain point it's like why not listen to what she has to say because she might be in a position where she sees how to spend money because she thinks about it more than thinks about making it, you know? And also because it would be an act of love to spend money on something for her... Imagine again if it was muscle strength and she had such little muscle to like... do shit. Isn't it an act of love to do things for her or at least with her? And wouldn't she be thinking all day about doing things because she's not doing them and wants to? 

Idk it seems to me like he is not seeing from her perspective more than she is not seeing from his. Which is common when it comes to money, as people tend to hide behind it and few know the street smarts necessary to bond without money.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Where's my pop corn when I need it... people trying to sell themselves as a luxury product because they're useless... how priceless! All that contest to be the one that demands the most, really some funny shit if you ask me. Most of humanity is broke ugly and stupid. I can only laugh at you all setting unrealistic standards and die childless. Really, your dna won't be missed.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Let's prevent all the men who are broke, with under average dicks muscles and height, to breed. Also those who cheat and don't like your mommy. And those who are bad kissers. And too possessive. And too egoistic. And... oh I can't wait to see what happens next. :smug:


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

salt said:


> if you cant get a first date, or if the first date fails because she perceives you as too poor, shes not a gold-digger.
> most girls are NOT gold-digger, youre just TOO poor man.
> i hate those “social experiment” videos where the guy arrives in a fucking sad bicycle, the girl declines. when hes in a lambo, the girl accepts. well its because you were TOO poor, you can just arrive in a normal car/scooter, if she declines then ONLY then is she a gold-digger.
> if youre attractive, your income/allowance/family is just normal, average earning, she will accept you.
> ...


Yea... When you do meet a guy with money, please make sure to tell him how happy you are he isn't soooo poor that you'd decline him. Speaking as someone with stable income and a side business that just recently got major clientele, that is the sort of thing I would want to know. Nothing speaks to men's romantic sensibilities and outlook on long term relationship prospects as a woman who would be there in sickness and in health and as long as you are not too poor.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Stelliferous said:


> Yeah but I mean the female not having money... at a certain point it's like why not listen to what she has to say because she might be in a position where she sees how to spend money because she thinks about it more than thinks about making it, you know? And also because it would be an act of love to spend money on something for her... Imagine again if it was muscle strength and she had such little muscle to like... do shit. Isn't it an act of love to do things for her or at least with her? And wouldn't she be thinking all day about doing things because she's not doing them and wants to?


Totally makes sense to me, but let's remember the context here: there is no relationship, we are talking about a guy pursuing a girl, there is no relationship at all, and the context also involves the poster always posting threads in the same mood: complaining and ranting because dudes don't do as she wants or needs.

I think people in general should understand nobody owes nothing to nobody, and nobody SHOULD take their most valuable resources (whatever they are) for a total stranger or someone who is not even on a relationship. This is a classic in my region: women expecting men to show all their cards, that's very common and many men fall for that, but not experienced ones. 



Stelliferous said:


> Idk it seems to me like he is not seeing from her perspective more than she is not seeing from his. Which is common when it comes to money, as people tend to hide behind it and few know the street smarts necessary to bond without money.


Absolutely, I can see both situations, what you describe and where she is coming from (totally diff scenarios), what you describe is totally ok, but she isn't, very diff things.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Where's my pop corn when I need it... people trying to sell themselves as a luxury product because they're useless... how priceless! All that contest to be the one that demands the most, really some funny shit if you ask me. Most of humanity is broke ugly and stupid. I can only laugh at you all setting unrealistic standards and die childless. Really, your dna won't be missed.


This whole issue is very common in my region, to the point men build relationship based on debt, they pay for it and then complain about gold diggers. It's not fun to complain about something you feed. I can only read again and again (like an echo) that bit of humanity being mostly broke, ugly and stupid, so true.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

IMO people should look at their values in life and in a relationship.

It's fine if your values include money--if you want to have a nice house and a nice life etc. where you vacation and shit, then yes--date someone who will also work with your lifestyle.

If you want to be a poet who's poor, or date someone like that, then do.

Those social experiments on youtube though--they are pretty silly. Most of them are probably totally inaccurate or they don't really give much towards any real conclusion.

If you're watching stuff that's supposed to 'catch' women being gold diggers then it's probably a shitty media to consume.



But really, women want all kinds of things, just as men do. It's not wrong to want three children, a mansion, and vacations twice a year. Not everyone wants that though. It's also not wrong to want to be childless and devote your life to something else, like developing a strain of striped turnips. It's okay to have different interests.

Edit:

Personally, there is no way I would be able to support another person right now--I'm still trying to figure out how to support my own parent. So no--I don't have time to date, really, right now, and especially do not have time and energy to support another person financially. I would love to be with someone who supported my interests though--who could be there to make it safer to go out in isolated places, and was interested in similar things. It's been ages since I've been mushroom collecting or rockhounding. But probably best when I am more on top of my life and can join in groups or somehow meet someone with similar interests in which the relationship is mutually beneficial.

Idk--bottom line is those social experiments on youtube can be entertaining, but they are not places to draw universal conclusions about humanity.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Stelliferous said:


> You're so Te...


Well. I am not sure if that is a compliment or not. _What would "Fe" say?_


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Where's my pop corn when I need it... people trying to sell themselves as a luxury product because they're useless... how priceless! All that contest to be the one that demands the most, really some funny shit if you ask me. Most of humanity is broke ugly and stupid. I can only laugh at you all setting unrealistic standards and die childless. Really, your dna won't be missed.


Lol yeah people sell themselves everywhere, it's almost like it's subconscious to. So much advertising, it's like why did I turn off the television for this? It's the same thing!

But eh, I like to be me. Not really selling myself unless I have to. It's a kick in the pants. 

Guess that's why it's all connected to money huh? The resume, the interview, the loyalty, it's all just like you're dating except you do it for money. Like points in a mating game. 

But I mean, really? Why is that the only option? You attach the dating system with the money system and how do you date outside the money system? Unless you... somehow... treat the money system differently. Treat the money system unlike how you treat that dating system. 

Or just fall into the trap of believing money is success and more dateworthy. Which I guess is the option most people choose. But a part of them i hope would make better judgments of people.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

changos said:


> This whole issue is very common in my region, to the point men build relationship based on debt, they pay for it and then complain about gold diggers. It's not fun to complain about something you feed. I can only read again and again (like an echo) that bit of humanity being mostly broke, ugly and stupid, so true.


That's my sister to a T. I know we were talking about men, but lesbians can be golddiggers too, and my sister's ex was definitely one, while my sister kept feeding it with expansive gifts that neither of them could afford. She "borrowed" from me, from our mother and from friends, and now had to downgrade to a smaller place with roommates and is working her ass off to pay back the debt (to the bank, I personally don't expect to ever see that money).


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Catwalk said:


> Well. I am not sure if that is a compliment or not. _What would "Fe" say?_


Probably be more dramatic about it. Instead of "fair" like how you split what we do, Fe would create a sense of togetherness, fair or not. If it's too fair or too unfair, there would be desire to switch, just to create a togetherness by means of having similar experiences.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Does this include guys that doesn't brag or show off their wealth? The 'stealth wealth'-group.
There's reasons to not show your wealth:
- avoid theft
- avoid scammers
- avoid golddiggers
- avoid meaningless spending
- secure family and friends from everything above
- avoid attention from kidnappers


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## ponpiri (Apr 30, 2017)

Stelliferous said:


> It's always funny reading something like this because *being broke is often temporary.* Reminds me of that c lo green song "fuck you" after he got rich.


No, it isn't. You also have to remember that being broke usually comes with a broke mindset and poor money management skills that's been learned from their parents/environment. [And especially for my community, becoming rich is rare and staying wealthy even rarer.]

Btw, I don't encourage anyone to date a person based on potential. I could potentially look like Naomi Campbell if I lost weight and restructured my face, but you wouldn't see a dude dating a woman because she could potentially be prettier some day.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

I was wealthy once. My ex and I lived in a big house with servants and drivers. I used to give her 30% of my pay check as pocket money to do whatever she wanted. I even paid for her college tuition and gas on top of that  

She emotionally cheated on me :laughing:

I got bored of her and started talking to other chicks. :laughing:

We divorced despite having no money problems at all. We even loved each other to an extent when we divorced. But we realized that we weren't compatible at all. 

Set your own bar for how much money is important in a relationship or if it even is or isn't. 

My wife and I are 90/10 (her earning more) with regards to our current financial division. About 70/30 (me doing more) with regards to home division of labor. I am the decider because I'm more proactive. She's the more dependable one because she's committed. We have no shortage of love and respect between us. She respects me and it shows. I respect her. We care about money but we have no conflict between us because I've experienced life when I was filthy rich and she's experienced life when she was nearly homeless. We've both built a home full of laughter and shared activities with a lot of intimacy. 

Anyways, point is. Money only matters as much as you want it to matter. There is no general rule. You won't have a shortage of money if you plan your finances right. We live and eat well. All bills are paid at the end of the month and we have enough left over to enjoy life.


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## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Dare

"Not surprisingly, since she refused to change, we dropped her from our friend group". 

So. If someone has less depth. Or less information. Or less expertise. Or any deficiency at all, he should be just dissed cause he didn't fit the framework of similar sufficiency? You're after copy-paste, much, aren't you.

You are perfect yourself? What if you found yourself in the middle of say 10 billionaires, would you politely exclude yourself from that group justifying that you´re just a lesser person? Hideous. Or you'd use E3 tactics and fake it till you make it?

Nice logics. Expandable to nothing. Mature? What are you a reflection of, a teenager?

Just. Just try again. Ill lend you a hand.

Fine, no financial abilities. Idiot in making money, some pride issues too. What is she strong at? Is she capable of something, is that commercial somehow, what are the passions, can she promote her ideas on say youtube and promote even the toilet paper she uses to make it work for her. Is she secretly a great writer. Does she know music notes. Can she wash dishes. Is she thrilled about dog agility training or reading magazines critically. Can she be a referee for a hockey match, or does she eat healthily. What is she great at, w/o it being capitalized on yet. How can she be supported, no, not mouth fed, not given fish to the table, but taught how to do the entire fishing process it self. Why weren't she taught to do FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT TRADING? Why there was no SOCIAL support? Why ditch social capital for any deficiencies at all if the commitment was made?

Ill tell why. Bc its easier that way.

Its too damn hard to develop and lead through a lift up than express value via humiliation process and .. I know you agree with me type of PASSIVE AGRESSIVE behavior not at all typical to intj, but VERY typical to XSTP´s. Mayne I should change my label here from intj to xstp. As Im WAYYYY to depersonalized to use intj labels. Its too cool. They are so posh. Abuse, destroy, humiliate and ditch. What a operational strategy to live by. Those are my 10 commandments. Loving em. It is said the the bullied will so easily become the bully. What a waste of experience. What a waste of intentions. And what a massive waste of Tier 1 GENES!!! Fucken hell.

Its so easy to forget where we came from when all is sufficiently good. So. So easy, isn't it.

But times will change. USD will melt. And that girl over there that you excluded may know by chance how to make axes by some grandparent tradition she was forced to take in and there shell be, lying next to a pile of cozy fireplace wood chops with her new friends and guess twice if she's going to let them invite you over.

You guys.. We.. our generation is insanely uninsigthfull and with a total lack of perspective. Just like a n deperson towards an s is ought to be.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

pwowq said:


> Does this include guys that doesn't brag or show off their wealth? The 'stealth wealth'-group.
> There's reasons to not show your wealth:
> - avoid theft
> - avoid scammers
> ...


Just to feed off this post and say more on the subject. 

There's another group of wealthy people who live normal/average lives because they're genuinely humble. You would never know how much money they have because they've recognized that their level of happiness is not dependent on how much money they make and how much they are able to consume. 

This is interesting that I've noticed after coming here. The American "dream" is to not have wealth, but rather to _expose_ your wealth and display your status - not actually have wealth or status .. It's literally designed to make you jealous, or make others jealous of you. But the reality is that these messages are fed into your brains from a young age where every ad tells you that the more you consume, the more others will envy you. 

There is a reason why millennials are the consistent target of corporate media backlash and it's because Millennials have rejected en masse the corporate brainwashing of the "American Dream" and are financially smart. They're letting ridiculous industries that shouldn't exist (like cable, fabric softeners etc) die because they're good with their money. 

Personally, I question the very idea of status associated with wealth and I always have. Having had money and lived the rich boy's lifestyle for much of my youth and then again in my twenties, I know through experience that it's not that much better than my poor friends who lived in ghettos and slums. We had similar issues at home. We had arguing parents the same. We had parents who fought. Siblings who treated us poorly. We had the same social issues in school and then in college. We fell in love the same. And we had our hearts broken the same. I got mugged and robbed the same (or probably more) than my poor friends. The wealth differential between myself and my friends mattered little in the grand scheme of things. 

In fact, there are even studies done that have consistently proven that a person's level of happiness increases with wealth only up until a certain amount and then there's diminishing returns. You get to a point and then that's it. For some individuals, they can't get any "happier" and no matter how much more they earn and spend on goods, they can't go beyond and it actually starts impacting them negatively. 

Those people who are wealthy and refuse to spend everything (or most of everything) they earn have to find other ways to be/remain happy. Wealth is only one factor. It's not the factor. 

There is a reason why the mega rich and the mega poor seem to have similar issues at times. The poor want to be rich because they think that their happiness will come with wealth and the rich realize that the richer they get, it stops having an impact on their level of happiness.


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## piece in quite (Aug 10, 2015)

get money get pussy


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

Can you provide what you expect from a partner? If not, all I hear is:
"I have nothing to offer, but I demand to be taken care of like a child"


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

ponpiri said:


> No, it isn't. You also have to remember that being broke usually comes with a broke mindset and poor money management skills that's been learned from their parents/environment. [And especially for my community, becoming rich is rare and staying wealthy even rarer.]
> 
> Btw, I don't encourage anyone to date a person based on potential. I could potentially look like Naomi Campbell if I lost weight and restructured my face, but you wouldn't see a dude dating a woman because she could potentially be prettier some day.


And most potential is beauty fades right? Well if you ignore potential and only focus on immediate then you will be disappointed in the future when your standards of yesterday no longer are met.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

ponpiri said:


> No, it isn't. You also have to remember that *being broke usually comes with a broke mindset *and poor money management skills that's been learned from their parents/environment.


True and not true, the key here is "*usually*", well said. A lot of people would be wealthy if it wasn't for their family (parents, brothers, sisters) and some because of their wives because they mean expenses. We also have to remember health, a lot of people with money are empty hands now due to health expenses or health emergencies.

You can have something as a relative with a terrible illness at the edge of dying, and you can also have a "healthy" relative with depression, fuck, depression can be expensive, really expensive.



Jawz said:


> There's another group of wealthy people who live normal/average lives because they're genuinely humble. You would never know how much money they have because they've recognized that their level of happiness is not dependent on how much money they make and how much they are able to consume.


True. I'm surprised nobody has mention "_misery_" and empty hearts. Some people have cars and boats but they sleep in their beds, while others having those cars would sleep inside of them instead of the bed. As said before some people don't care about money (having it or not), caring or not doesn't mean not paying attention or not using it wisely, it's just not the center of their life.

I remember a long time friend of mine, he earns decent money, has properties, works in the graphic design industry and has every single model of the Apple Macintosh, he just buys the next one for work and keeps the older ones as a collector (hidden in his room). He prefers walking, using public transportation and running (we are mountain buddies). And I also remember a woman he was pursuing, she rejected him for not having money, so funny. He just keeps a lot of things to himself and doesn't share info beyond what's needed.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Cars VS bikes and walking.

Having a GF is expensive, not to mention what happens if she doesn't live near you. In my region men usually become free taxis, I hate it, this produces a lot of expenses, so... sometimes the woman can ask "why are you so poor?" and the guy could answer "well because of you!!!". 

Anyway just wanted to share a real life story, a guy who got this relationship, she lived at less than 10 blocks from his house, he said was very, very happy with the relationship. The problem? (going out far away aside...) he decided to stop using his car to visit her at her house and use his bike instead until she complained, why? neighbors and relatives made jokes about him being poor. The guy didn't share more details but he looked specially hurt by his own story.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

praise the mods said:


> get money get pussy


Yep, just not the pussy that's worthwhile investing in and keeping around.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

changos said:


> Cars VS bikes and walking.
> 
> Having a GF is expensive, not to mention what happens if she doesn't live near you. In my region men usually become free taxis, I hate it, this produces a lot of expenses, so... sometimes the woman can ask "why are you so poor?" and the guy could answer "well because of you!!!".
> 
> Anyway just wanted to share a real life story, a guy who got this relationship, she lived at less than 10 blocks from his house, he said was very, very happy with the relationship. The problem? (going out far away aside...) he decided to stop using his car to visit her at her house and use his bike instead until she complained, why? neighbors and relatives made jokes about him being poor. The guy didn't share more details but he looked specially hurt by his own story.


My ex and her family used to make fun of my perfect new car because I preferred a hatchback. The thing is I liked the hatchback because it was convenient for city driving. It never hurt me because I always saw their materialism as beneath me. But eventually it became a part of a whole Gambit of reasons why I said fuck off to the who!e family.

Dude, I was with a woman who BROKE a diamond ring and instead of getting it fixed demanded that I buy her a new one :laughing: I used to laugh in her face at first because I thought she was joking. Crazily enough... She wasn't and I used to give her too much credit.


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## ponpiri (Apr 30, 2017)

Stelliferous said:


> And most potential is beauty fades right? Well if you ignore potential and only focus on immediate then you will be disappointed in the future when your standards of yesterday no longer are met.


True. There's a trope about a guy going through a midlife crisis via having an affair with a younger-looking version of his wife/long-time gf to answer your posit.


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## ponpiri (Apr 30, 2017)

Rebelgoatalliance said:


> Can you provide what you expect from a partner? If not, all I hear is:
> "I have nothing to offer, but I demand to be taken care of like a child"


Don't be a burden. If you disturb my peace and bring more aggravation than your presence is 'worth,' then there is no point to the relationship.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

I find @salt always does this, drops a thread where she generalizes about a whole group of people based on an experience with one person, then just ditches. Seems kinda trolly tbh.


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

ponpiri said:


> Don't be a burden. If you disturb my peace and bring more aggravation than your presence is 'worth,' then there is no point to the relationship.


Agreed.


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## Ultio (Nov 22, 2016)

It goes both ways!


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## NeonMidget (Aug 7, 2017)

As long as the person who is "_pursuing_" intends to not stay broke (they are trying to get ahead in life but right now they are broke) then there is no problem. We all struggle at some point in life... if they are a great person and you want a future with them then someone being broke in that relationship shouldn't matter. :hugs:


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Wot if my penis is a beautiful shape doe?


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

NeonMidget said:


> As long as the person who is "_pursuing_" intends to not stay broke (they are trying to get ahead in life but right now they are broke) then there is no problem. We all struggle at some point in life... if they are a great person and you want a future with them then someone being broke in that relationship shouldn't matter. :hugs:


Well said


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

@changos I much agree what you say, but public transport will only work if you live in big city, otherwise lacking a car is a problem.


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## _Ionic (Jul 8, 2016)

People will say money doesn't matter much but it does.

The fact of the matter is, women want a man that will be able to provide her the life she wants (and himself to an extent). The act of providing comes in different forms, the main two categories being able to provide financial stability and emotional stability (having a sense of support in your relationship, feeling valued and wanted by your significant other, being a good source of advice etc). 

If a woman rejects you because you maybe "too poor", then it's simply because she doesn't see a future with you that will grant both of you guys financial stability. As hard as that is to comprehend, it's reality. Of course there are exceptions to this notion, but in general that's how it is (At least in the U.S from what I seen). 

* On a side note the example you provided is a very poor example in my opinion. Because you can still be poor and present yourself to be in a much higher class than you already are. I would assume that in the example you provided, the man who was "poor" presented himself to be very unkempt, unapproachable and not hygienic. If you come off as being well kept, hygienic and somewhat approachable, then most people won't perceive you as poor without actually finding out themselves. In summary, I think it's a matter of presentation here than actually being poor.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Elwinz said:


> @*changos* I much agree what you say, but public transport will only work if you live in big city, otherwise lacking a car is a problem.


True.




_Ionic said:


> People will say money doesn't matter much but it does.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, women want a man that will be able to provide her the life she wants (and himself to an extent). The act of providing comes in different forms, the main two categories being able to provide financial stability and emotional stability (having a sense of support in your relationship, feeling valued and wanted by your significant other, being a good source of advice etc).
> 
> ...


You are right, but that's the problem I'm seeing lately.

I want a woman with big boobs, result=discussion, polemic
Long term result = boobs are useful, people say focusing on them is bad but they are needed.

I mean, it's logic being applied yes but it's not a good logic. We all need resources for any kind of relationship, but that doesn't mean you have to prove anything to anyone and then this person will have to approve and then there you go. That's what I believe is the discussion here.

Example: cooking is good, useful, so what if I ask you out? I NEED first hand proves that you can cook so what we are going to do now is go to your house so you can cook me something (same applied to a car, going out doesn't mean the woman is entitled to all my resources, now, and I'm not forced to reveal all my cards). What happens here is women like the OP expect everything to be handed right away so she can judge and pick. Well, if we are going to play that way, let the man ask, evaluate and pick too.

I honestly agree with your words, but this is more about appropriation. Most guys as they get older don't even talk about resources, and if asked (evasion is not an option) you have the right to change the subject or leave (we, men).


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## _Ionic (Jul 8, 2016)

changos said:


> True.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think physical attractions (such as boobs in this case) fall under emotional stability (in my example). 

I do agree with comment though. Although the OP is right to some extent with what I agree with, I do disagree with some her statements. I think she fails to realize here that the situation relies on how you approach and present yourself to somebody, and whether or not the person approaching her has goals and plans in the future that is willing to bring to bring them financial stability (as another user posted on here earlier). 

Of course, whether or not she declines them or accepts them is up to her discretion, but simply implying that being poor is the only reason why guys can't get a date, well that's just generalization and failing to explore the different circumstances as to why a women might say no.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Elwinz said:


> @*changos* I much agree what you say, but public transport will only work if you live in big city, otherwise lacking a car is a problem.


True! things can be tricky, I grew up walking, without a car and just using public transportation. Then I got a car. While going to work I enjoyed riding a bus because I could read books and chat with people I know. Then I enjoyed my car a little bit more but it had a lot to do with locations, it was far more comfortable in many ways using the bus (to me). But my words are not to talk about me, I wanted to give some perspective: while dating I found several women thinking bus = poor, and I actually got literal statements of "_I will NEVER ride a bus again in my life_" and that's too bad, life has its challenges and we don't know what comes ahead, being flexible means adaptable and rigid people are more likely to do bad things to keep their lifestyle. 

I guess what I'm trying to explain is in terms of people, it's not just about being practical, convenient, etc, we learn while growing up some of those things mean something different to diff people (like classes, poverty, elite life, etc). Example: the poster is not saying a single word about the person, the human being, just about resources, so I can't just focus my logic on that.

Yes I totally understand what you say, I agree 100%, and buses can be a nightmare specially during rainy season.





_Ionic said:


> I think physical attractions (such as boobs in this case) fall under emotional stability (in my example).
> 
> I do agree with comment though. Although the OP is right to some extent with what I agree with, I do disagree with some her statements. I think she fails to realize here that the situation relies on how you approach and present yourself to somebody, and whether or not the person approaching her has goals and plans in the future that is willing to bring to bring them financial stability (as another user posted on here earlier).
> 
> Of course, whether or not she declines them or accepts them is up to her discretion, but simply implying that being poor is the only reason why guys can't get a date, well that's just generalization and failing to explore the different circumstances as to why a women might say no.


Nice, you saw the intention and logic of the example. And totally agree with your views here. It kind of reminded me of the film "Friends with money", quite related (specially the end).

BTW, my sister worked at this advertising agency, there was this woman (Lily) who was very pretty, average person just like most of us, then a guy approached her and asked her out, _*she did and had a good time*_ ( <-- that's something we don't see the OP talking about, just resources, and BTW, resources are not just given to you because you are on a relationship, we just don't gain privileges, it's totally ok someone with money dating someone with no money and yet not giving any access to the resources! you date the person not the resources, if you get married things get tricky from there). 

Anyway the guy and his family were garbage collectors, she didn't like that  and had issues with the concept. Why? the guy had good resources but sometimes he drove the garbage collector trucks and wore the uniform so he looked poor, in fact he was "the garbage guy" at the eyes of many. She did talked openly about this issues (being worried).

They got married, she was very happy, such a nice smile. To me that's something, he was the owner of a portion of the business and had no issues (or shame) covering other people on the job. NIce.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

_Ionic said:


> I think physical attractions (such as boobs in this case) fall under emotional stability (in my example).


Her tits make the relationship emotionally stable? 









Wut?


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Vunar said:


> How would the list look like in situation where a) both of you make roughly the same and b) he is the one making money and you're broke. What would you expect from him and provide yourself in those scenarios or would it stay the same since those are not relevant to anyone's income?


Unless an apocolypse happen(s); B is a highly unlikely scenario. Not my personality at all. I am very driven to provide. I will always have my own money, resources, shelter, etc. I would not date unless I did. I may ponder suicide if I were broke with a guy providing for me. I would feel severely incompetent without this form of materalism and coming to the table with 0 or even significantly less. I honestly do not know how some people do it. The list would simply reverse. House husbands/housewives without kids should be kept busy.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Honestly, this thread is so gross to me.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Just don't get lost on one supposed obvious possibility. At this point in my life I've seen (and experienced myself) more than enough cases where, a man just won't do what the woman expects and then he is...

- called pussy, cheap, broke, bum with no future
- having mommy issues
- fear of commitment
- being a sociopath
- being a jerk
- refusing to be an adult

And also cases where the terrible defects are turned into virtues:

- he fears me because I'm strong
- he can't handle my beauty and brains
- I'm too much for him
- he's just too blind to see my true value
- I'm just too fun and slick and he can't handle me

All it takes is knowing both persons involved and having the guy straight answer, sometimes the refusal comes from things as simple as "_meh, she is boring, why would I go out/travel/bring my car/give money/spend, etc_" or "*I'm just not that into her*". Sometimes all it takes (in general) is a bit of memory and see all the stories from X person are the same: nobody wants to bet on them. In short: everybody leaves.

I take the previous at heart even applied to myself to avoid me from believing reasons that are not real.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

ponpiri said:


> You can make bank off your hobbies. Plenty of people become rich just from acting stupid and being "relatable," so if you have a hobby that others may be interested in and can communicate well, you should be good to go. Jump on instagram, youtube or Etsy and make that money.


Well you are correct there. I guess I just doubt my own abilities.
If you believe I could do it though then I appreciate that a lot, thank you~.


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## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

It doesn't cost anything to hang out. When I met the girl I've been with for 15 years, I was flat broke.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

salt said:


> if you cant get a first date, or if the first date fails because she perceives you as too poor, shes not a gold-digger.
> most girls are NOT gold-digger, youre just TOO poor man.
> i hate those “social experiment” videos where the guy arrives in a fucking sad bicycle, the girl declines. when hes in a lambo, the girl accepts. well its because you were TOO poor, you can just arrive in a normal car/scooter, if she declines then ONLY then is she a gold-digger.
> if youre attractive, your income/allowance/family is just normal, average earning, she will accept you.
> ...


"i dont fuck with what i cant handle in my mind" k, whats new at eleven tho. Like what would be wrong with the guy being a stay at home dad if hes like, amazing at it, while you'd be the breadwinner ?

Because you know, what you're saying right now is just denial on how gold digger is used. You're just there running around with how men should behave, like society expects you to. Congrats I guess


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

To each their own, I think. I don't see anything wrong with broke guys pursuing girls. If a woman doesn't want a broke partner, she shouldn't agree to date a broke person. Anyway, these things can change over the course of life. My husband and I have flip-flopped on who has and makes more money a few times so far. I imagine we'll be doing so again at some point.



Sygma said:


> Like what would be wrong with the guy being a stay at home dad if hes like, amazing at it, while you'd be the breadwinner ?


Honestly I would love that arrangement, personally.


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## Lakigigar (Jan 4, 2016)

Lol, what a sick girl is OP. I would never ever want to see her in my life... I'd rather date a broke girl than a girl like OP. I even rather date a guy instead of OP, even i'm not gay, but at least gays would be nicer.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

changos said:


> Just don't get lost on one supposed obvious possibility. At this point in my life I've seen (and experienced myself) more than enough cases where, a man just won't do what the woman expects and then he is...


All of what you've listed is true but only for specific women and maybe traditionally socially conservative women raised in traditional homes. 

A lot of these generalizations don't apply for most liberal minded men and women anymore. Even on PerC a lot of women are already in financially better positions than their SO's, boyfriends and husbands. Then there are a lot of other girls that have directly contradicted these stereotypes ITT. 

That said, the vast majority of men who stay at home do so as a result of disability. In 2012, only 22% of the stay at home men stated that they stay at home because of school/retired/other (35% as a result of disability). 

I'm assuming that "Other" is the one where a man just stays at home for "no real reason" and if we split that stat between the three it's like 7% of all men who stay at home which is a pretty low number even amongst those who stay at home. 

The vast majority of Men don't like to stay at home and not earn. The thing is that we as a society tend to talk about the minority more than the majority because minorities stand out more and therefore they're harder to understand. 

By and large, if the number of stay at home men that don't have a genuine reason for staying at home is only around 7% then the chances are that the vast majority of women will likely never even meet such a guy. Women who choose to live life with a man with a disability (like me for example) tend to make the decision ahead of time therefore they are not likely to have a problem with their disabled partner. 

Point is that both the male and female gold-digger or person that doesn't have earning potential is a very small number.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

angelfish said:


> To each their own, I think. I don't see anything wrong with broke guys pursuing girls. If a woman doesn't want a broke partner, she shouldn't agree to date a broke person. Anyway, these things can change over the course of life. My husband and I have flip-flopped on who has and makes more money a few times so far. I imagine we'll be doing so again at some point.


There are some posters that I just happen to enjoy their wording and the way they explain things, you are one of those. Like you I also don't think it's wrong being "broke" and pursuing a girl/woman. Might sound contradicting regarding what I posted a while ago that I don't agree on men dating with their mom's money, or trying to have something they can't afford, or worse, they can't afford themselves) but it's not contradicting. *In a lot of ways is not the situation but the method*:

Is not just being broke, is about wanting money without working
Not so much about being broke and wanting a relationship, but being broke and lying to get the girl

Just as wrong as expecting other people to have money, cars, etc if you don't have it (arguable)
Just as wrong as focusing on the money but never on why they don't have it
I've seen more cases where people also don't care on HOW they got that money...

Yes things can change over the course of life. Nice.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Jawz said:


> All of what you've listed is true but only for specific women and maybe traditionally socially conservative women raised in traditional homes.
> 
> A lot of these generalizations don't apply for most liberal minded men and women anymore. Even on PerC a lot of women are already in financially better positions than their SO's, boyfriends and husbands. Then there are a lot of other girls that have directly contradicted these stereotypes ITT.


Nice. Sorry I got lost on your references. Yes I agree on what you wrote, just on that bit above I'm confused. I wasn't talking specifically on that post about financial situations, but instead: about the usual reactions of people when you don't do what they want and what I explained was not exactly money related, "_example: you don't pursue me, then you are gay_". I've been about to open a thread about that, how to be single without issues. But that's all, I pretty much agree with what you wrote.




Jawz said:


> A lot of these generalizations don't apply for most liberal minded men and women anymore. *Even on PerC a lot of women are already in financially better positions than their SO's, boyfriends and husbands.* Then there are a lot of other girls that have directly contradicted these stereotypes ITT.


That's... a complex topic. I've seen stats, reports, etc of women having better academic levels and also quickly going up on salaries recently, many earning more money, yes, that's a growing trend. But the details are very important (and deceiving). I live in latin america and most of what will say here is about where I LIVE, so it's not a world reality and I know it. Yet such reports on better salaries and "financial positions" are also happening here. Let me explain:

Where I live yes, we are seeing more women climbing positions and having better salaries than in the past and compared to their husbands, men in general. This is depicted on reports, research, stats, etc. But do they have a better financial position? sadly I can say "no". I've seen personally how salaries don't mean cash or money availability. It would take me a long time to describe my basis but we can't come to conclusions about people when it comes to their salaries, car, apartment and clothing, when most of they have no money on their hands or live in debt. It's like people in the US, they move a lot of money but compared to "poverty" or people living on other countries, such people don't have accumulated those large amounts of debt. USA culture lives on debt.

Things get more complex from there. I dated women who mostly earned less than me (due to the industry I worked on), then dated a few who earned more (and one earning triple) but going into details, they didn't have the cash and availability to invest, this comes when you talk about buying a house. That's what I was aiming here. Yes to everything but in my region the people who buy the houses are mostly men, many at the cost of great sacrifices. And culturally women are left behind not just due to their debts, but also because culturally they expect men to do it. Culturally (here) men buy the houses, and legally (if they split) women take it. It's sad, it's tied to culture.

A week ago I was talking to 2 ex coworkers (women, older than me) and I was asked why I didn't marry ABCD... and I proceeded to explain cultural differences, lifestyle, etc. Things got tricky there, but when I explained that _most _women in our country (region), regardless of how much they earn are in debt, they got it right away and there was no discussion. I have to add, it's not just women/men, most people in my country get married based on debt and stay in debt for years. So "*financial situation*" is a complex topic.

YET... what you said on financial situation is amazing, and very, VERY related to the whole topic I want to share this: While traveling I got to know many diff people of the world around the world. Some men and women get in HUGE debts to pay for their travels, some travel the way they can afford it. But over the years I also got to know people who looked poor, traveled "poor" and OMG they have money, like they have fucking money!!!!

The op being a guy (instead), would have rejected those women. And oh man they had money. I got the chance to find out they had lots of money as the relationship grew over time. European women? honestly have been my biggest surprise and I have several stories about this. One in particular looked poor, traveled poor (German amazingly beautiful woman) and after going out several times she told me she was bored and had a lot of money, she was wealthy. Honestly... I didn't fucking care. She left and a few months later came back to my country and bought a house by the lake (bought...) The story goes on, she has lots of money but enjoys a simple life just like other people I got to know.

Sorry for the long post but it's interesting how stats and reports can collide with everyday life. Stats can be true, but when it comes to details they can't be inaccurate.


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)

Sygma said:


> Like what would be wrong with the guy being a stay at home dad if hes like, amazing at it, while you'd be the breadwinner ?


I don't know how dating life is, but I tend to think that after a relationship develops based on mutual "x, y, z" the couple decides together who will be the stay at home parent - if it gets to that stage. Maybe I'm completely retarded, but normally - I'd think - people don't go around dating telling potential partners that their 'goal' in the relationship is to be a stay at home wife/husband/child caregiver... And if you're(anyone) a person the OP is 'advising', the whole point is that if _that is_ your mentality: don't be so naive, if you get rejected. Best to wake the f up.



> Because you know, what you're saying right now is just denial on how gold digger is used. You're just there running around with how men should behave, like society expects you to. Congrats I guess


Congratulations for thinking like how _the now_ society tells you. Being broke is okay, as long as you have love to share! Don't better yourself, don't better your life. Don't increase your standard of living. Don't plan for your future. Anyone that desires you to want you to improve your own life for your own sake _first_, so that you can share _after_ is only a gold digger!

If you have a loved one, or know someone who has had a loved one go through something like... terminal illness... tell me: what good are 'love', 'care', 'you' the being, without also the means of making their life more comfortable? Can you cure illness without the finances to support treatment? Is the plan to just wing it when the time comes? You'll just 'figure' it out as long as you have love: it will see you through it? Maybe it's just better to let fate decide, not try to fight it, but just be present and give care with soothing words/actions? 



Lakigigar said:


> Lol, what a sick girl is OP. I would never ever want to see her in my life... I'd rather date a broke girl than a girl like OP. I even rather date a guy instead of OP, even i'm not gay, but at least gays would be nicer.


It must be my poor reading comprehension, but care to point out what is 'sick' about what's been written in the OP?


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Would that be okay to say if the genders were the other way around? That it's ok for guys to turn down girls because they don't look like they have any money? Or was it not even considered a possibility because only men are expected to earn an income?


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## thealchemist (May 19, 2012)

salt said:


> if you cant get a first date, or if the first date fails because she perceives you as too poor, shes not a gold-digger.
> most girls are NOT gold-digger, youre just TOO poor man.
> i hate those “social experiment” videos where the guy arrives in a fucking sad bicycle, the girl declines. when hes in a lambo, the girl accepts. well its because you were TOO poor, you can just arrive in a normal car/scooter, if she declines then ONLY then is she a gold-digger.
> if youre attractive, your income/allowance/family is just normal, average earning, she will accept you.
> ...



To the original post:

-What is "broke"? If I make 100K per year and I'm barely scraping by would I be considered broke? Or no?
-What is "enough" money to you?
-Do you have to equally be making the same amount of money or is this just an expectation you're holding for men and not yourself?


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> I don't know how dating life is, but I tend to think that after a relationship develops based on mutual "x, y, z" the couple decides together who will be the stay at home parent - if it gets to that stage. Maybe I'm completely retarded, but normally - I'd think - people don't go around dating telling potential partners that their 'goal' in the relationship is to be a stay at home wife/husband/child caregiver... And if you're(anyone) a person the OP is 'advising', the whole point is that if _that is_ your mentality: don't be so naive, if you get rejected. Best to wake the f up.


It's called honesty. If X person has all the capacities and very willing to actually care for a children from start to bottom, to the point of staying at home for that ... yeah you just have to inform your partner to begin with. Its called values. You share them from the get go yeah otherwise good luck building anything





> Congratulations for thinking like how _the now_ society tells you. Being broke is okay, as long as you have love to share! Don't better yourself, don't better your life. Don't increase your standard of living. Don't plan for your future. Anyone that desires you to want you to improve your own life for your own sake _first_, so that you can share _after_ is only a gold digger!
> 
> If you have a loved one, or know someone who has had a loved one go through something like... terminal illness... tell me: what good are 'love', 'care', 'you' the being, without also the means of making their life more comfortable? Can you cure illness without the finances to support treatment? Is the plan to just wing it when the time comes? You'll just 'figure' it out as long as you have love: it will see you through it? Maybe it's just better to let fate decide, not try to fight it, but just be present and give care with soothing words/actions?


Death is a natural process. We're not all meant to have the means to overcome stuff and if somebody would rather go in peace than fighting in pain for maybe seeing the light, that's also something to respect

Honestly can't understand the point you're making. Are nuns / spiritual people deemed worthless or something now ?

You can make whats necessary to survive and live with minimal amount of superfluous extras. Just the bit of comfort needed to go on, while being satisfied with other means of happiness. If you need to put an ever increasing number on everything just to feel good that's on you


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## Lakigigar (Jan 4, 2016)

BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> It must be my poor reading comprehension, but care to point out what is 'sick' about what's been written in the OP?


She basically says that people like me should have no girlfriend... or should never experience love, because people like me don't have money... It's a very materialistic oriented girl that only cares about money, and will never experience what love is, because all she care about is a nice car, swimming pool and money. She's inclined to say that basically people can "buy" her with money, and that broke guys like me should kill themselves.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Wisteria said:


> Would that be okay to say if the genders were the other way around? That it's ok for guys to turn down girls because they don't look like they have any money? Or was it not even considered a possibility because only men are expected to earn an income?


It is like that though. I actually think (women) are more lenient on dating broke men than the other way around. How many well-established defense attorney's will go shopping for a broke woman, average in looks, no job, living in a box., etc.? Not many. I wonder why this "financial" stuff is a female thing. It isn't. Just a people thing.

A woman would throw all of that away (&) date a busted dude from Sears if he gives her a good thrill (aka has a good personality). This is what makes "Nice Guys" angry, also. Why is that awesome woman dating THAT guy and not me? She deserves so much better. I have a Ph.D., in astrophysics and no personality. Lul.

The female-specimens family criticize badly, also "_Why didn't you date Larry, the guy making 500k - not the trailor trash guy that makes you feel like shit?_" You see this a lot, actually. She just gets bullied, harassed, and tormented out of dating the broke guy. Let's not start on the familial shame that comes with it. Friend(s) are terrible about it, too.

I remember I dated a guy that was not all that - struggling financially, in between jobs, etc., I was critized all the time for "wasting time on him". I couldn't even talk about the dude without them ripping him apart. A disaster.


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## ShashaCruz (Jul 20, 2018)

i will not date a poor or lazy guy at all. i not after a millionaire but must be reasonably financially good for a chance with me. i want someone that can support me and his babies from me decently not extravagantly. everyone knows stay away if poor or lazy because will reject on the spot.


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## Sandstread (Jun 4, 2017)

@Catwalk

It is like that though. I actually think (women) are more lenient on dating broke men than the other way around. How many well-established defense attorney's will go shopping for a broke woman, average in looks, no job, living in a box., etc.? Not many. I wonder why this "financial" stuff is a female thing. It isn't. Just a people thing.

Correct. Poverty means _mainly_, Im unimpressed, try harder. Yet still, the inclination is there, money for sex with the lower level men being the providers. High status men can literally just go out there and hit it hard anytime at all. Basically with whom ever they chose. Its so weird in a way, its harder to not make it than to make it happen.

A woman would throw all of that away (&) date a busted dude from Sears if he gives her a good thrill (aka has a good personality). This is what makes "Nice Guys" angry, also. Why is that awesome woman dating THAT guy and not me? She deserves so much better. I have a Ph.D., in astrophysics and no personality. Lul.

Right. But the problem is that some of those nice guys, when we start to take off layers, can be massively expressive as well. Not all, but the ones w/o inhibitions. And even fewer have all of it. And its so bad, they will literally turn emotional connections into professional discussion just to get a break from the casual route leading right to bed.

The female-specimens family criticize badly, also "Why didn't you date Larry, the guy making 500k - not the trailor trash guy that makes you feel like shit?" You see this a lot, actually. She just gets bullied, harassed, and tormented out of dating the broke guy. Let's not start on the familial shame that comes with it. Friend(s) are terrible about it, too.

Thats cause the nice guys, who invested all their lives practically to get laid properly get furious that they failed. Ive seen lots of that too. The can't understand that the guys who do get easily laid are either a.) psychopaths or b.) alphas. The rest are literally really licking their own toes. And thats a real pity. The Sigmas and the Lamdas love that, but the alphas Im encountering daily are not. The feel sad for the loosing part of the men, all alphas.

Also. Thats bc in the upper middle class value is VERY social status related, edu, income class, professional role and so on. Lower Upper class is POSSESSION and LOOKS only related, an extremely shallow class, new money made over night or inherited over 2,3,4 gens only. And. Upper Upper is spirituality, info, and health only related.

I remember I dated a guy that was not all that - struggling financially, in between jobs, etc., I was critized all the time for "wasting time on him". I couldn't even talk about the dude without them ripping him apart. A disaster.

Indeed that happens. But thats literally just middle plus. At lower upper thats WAY worse, as its killing included. At upper upper the deal changes a lots as money per se is no longer a issue. At U.U. its add value based. If you failed to add value, you're done and over with in no time at all. And value at U.U. usually means discoveries or expeditional 1st hand contact with what ever part of the global reality. Like if a journalist came from xyz place and shared a cool story about his documentary film production process, U.U. would listen and possibly invite him over again. But if on the 2nd time there wouldn't be something as thrilling as that in his character, he wouldn't see the 3rd invitation. So basically what U.U. is all about is learning new.

Sorry for the nice guys dilemma. Lots of women encounter that IRL.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Catwalk said:


> It is like that though. I actually think (women) are more lenient on dating broke men than the other way around. How many well-established defense attorney's will go shopping for a broke woman, average in looks, no job, living in a box., etc.? Not many. I wonder why this "financial" stuff is a female thing. It isn't. Just a people thing.
> 
> A woman would throw all of that away (&) date a busted dude from Sears if he gives her a good thrill (aka has a good personality). This is what makes "Nice Guys" angry, also. Why is that awesome woman dating THAT guy and not me? She deserves so much better. I have a Ph.D., in astrophysics and no personality. Lul.
> 
> ...


Some families (like my exes) will criticize men who are making more than other men his age (as I was) as well if there is some sort of a personality clash or if they're just biased against you for no reason at all. My earning was about 40-50% higher than other 27 year olds and I was working my ass off to make sure that money was never an issue and it wasn't. It still didn't matter in the end. It was something else. 

I think that they disliked my lack of submissiveness and refusal to bend over for their every whim - but I never quite figured out why I was disliked by them in particular. None of the issues were openly discussed, but they would constantly come up with negative things to say about me to my ex which eventually played a role in tearing us apart as well.



Sandstread said:


> Indeed that happens. But thats literally just middle plus. At lower upper thats WAY worse, as its killing included. At upper upper the deal changes a lots as money per se is no longer a issue. At U.U. its add value based. If you failed to add value, you're done and over with in no time at all. And value at U.U. usually means discoveries or expeditional 1st hand contact with what ever part of the global reality. Like if a journalist came from xyz place and shared a cool story about his documentary film production process, U.U. would listen and possibly invite him over again. But if on the 2nd time there wouldn't be something as thrilling as that in his character, he wouldn't see the 3rd invitation. So basically what U.U. is all about is learning new.
> 
> Sorry for the nice guys dilemma. Lots of women encounter that IRL.


At upper/upper (which was the wealth dynamic of my last relationship) money can still be a problem because for some people no amount of money is enough. The problems of materialism can happen at any income level. But I think they are rarer the richer people get. 

But there is no universal truth that can be applied or generalization that can be made because it all still boils down to individuals and their own personalities.


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## Roslyn (Aug 2, 2018)

flamesabers said:


> I was going to pose the reverse question as "unattractive girls shouldn't pursue guys."
> 
> I'm fine with women having any kind of dating standards so long as they don't hypocritically demonize men for having their own dating standards. If it's okay to judge a man by the size of his wallet, it should also be okay to judge a woman by her level of attractiveness. If it's shallow for a guy to reject a girl because he thinks she's too ugly, it should also be shallow for a girl to reject a guy because his income is too low.
> 
> ...


Doesn't everyone have something that we're somewhat shallow for having as a preference. I hadn't really been aware of my own until recently reading an article about blond men, it hit I really don't find blond guys attractive. That's just a non-starter. Money hasn't been such an issue for me. I went on a couple of dates with an older guy who ran a small non-profit. He had lots of solutions for not having much money and was very thrifty. I found language barriers got to be a problem for me and we both had time commitment problems. Lack of owning a car in a city isn't meaningful. 

I do have some expectations. Guys around my age, coming out of college, my financial expectations are low. However, older men, if they're broke, there needs to be a reason. Have they been backpacking the world? Did they have an addiction that they're coming out of? Mental health issues? These aren't necessarily going to be reasons to say no, but I need full disclosure. I want to know what situation I'm walking into. If they just spent 5-10 in prison for a serious crime and that's why they're broke, I'll admit, I'm not sure I'd want to get involved there. My parents definitely wouldn't want me involved. I don't think it's unfair to have at least some reservations about a man or woman who has had time to build their life and should be comfortably self-supporting but aren't. 

Also, I think it's a mistake that so many men aren't worried about a woman who is old enough to be financially stable. For their own sake, they should see this as a red flag.


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

Roslyn said:


> Also, I think it's a mistake that so many men aren't worried about a woman who is old enough to be financially stable. For their own sake, they should see this as a red flag.


Yeah. Be very cautious of people who can't pull their own weight.


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## Forest Nymph (Aug 25, 2018)

Uh...ok. 

I can kind of understand where you are coming from, because I really hate the sort of guy who is looking for a "sugar momma" or who wants a woman to support him. There are dating apps for that so they can target truly successful or wealthy women who genuinely want this type of scenario, but all too often these creeps just go after some average lady like a teacher or blue collar worker and try to bleed her dry because they're literally emotionally 9. There is a really low-level sort of borderline sociopath or narcissist who forms parasitic relationships with women, often intentionally targeting women who are "soft hearted" or who have low self esteem and try to make them feel sorry for him, that kind of garbage. I feel that way when I see men intentionally try to harass women when they're panhandling, like they think they're more likely to get a dollar from a nice lady. 

ON THE OTHER HAND, there are plenty of women who will date someone who rides a bicycle (cars are actually a sign of excess or fossil fuel waste in some social groups, bikes have become more and more popular combined with public transportation in the U.S. in a way more resembling mainland Europe or far-East Asia) ...I would. I don't have a problem with bikes. I don't necessarily expect every date I have to buy me things, though its nice. I actually was involved with a couple of men in L.A. were very successful, millionaires who could just give me money to spend or even pay my rent for me, and it didn't make them better people nor did it make them more likely to settle into a committed relationship. If anything it seemed like they used money as a barrier to having to form any kind of real emotional intimacy, like oh there's a problem, throw money at it. It's fun for a while, but ultimately I couldn't see myself being content with that scenario in a marriage or life-long partnership (though I acknowledge some women seek this out intentionally it seems like a majestic farce to me).


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Tropes said:


> Hmm I can see their side in these - or at least sympathetic to it. It's worth keeping in mind that the terminology is not a natural phenomena, it's an invention that tries to frame human emotional connections but kind of misses the mark. Dating someone while having sex with another or dating multiple people when you haven't committed to any of them isn't technically cheating -it isn't a breach of contract - but there's a layer of motivation that comes into question, because there's absolutely nobody telling their kids "Out of the 5 women I was dating at the time your mother had the best smile". When we agree to date someone the subtext is "ok, let's try this out at it and see if there's potential here", it requires a genuine attempt at forming an emotional bond, so if they are left feeling that they've made an attempt and were temporarily focused on you while you didn't reciprocate the same focus, I can understand how that would feel like a betrayal. It's kind of like the difference between someone who takes a free sample because they are considering buying the product vs someone running between free sample stands so that they won't have too.


Someone teaching about sex and STD's explained something we had a hard time understanding: "_it's easy, it's clear, it's simple, the problem is most people approach sex and STD's with shame and guilt as if it was evil, bad, shameful_". I don't mean to tie sex and STD's here as if dating = sex and STD's, I'm just sharing the full quote. What I do mean is... if we put effort on it, we will see how many, way many people approach the dating and relationships realm with prohibitions and guilt, it's a game of guilt. And it can start with someone stating "she is not pleased with ABCDE..."

Money or no money, sex or no sex, nobody owes nobody anything, that's the simplest truth. Anything else we might feel is pure cultural influence. You are right about the building the bonds, that's true. 

*This is quite important to consider: *A lot of people in diff countries approach relationships this way, as if you owe those women something, as if you are forced to paint smiles on their faces. As if that sexist lie about pussy making the rules was true and then submitting. Then you have men fighting to become the ultimate alphas (whatever that means) And having poor dumb women choosing among them, that's like building the best product just to give it away for free and loosing self value. Besides, it just reflects what most of us will learn later: we are not good at bargaining and negotiating when it comes to select your life partner. We must learn it means we have to seek the best options not just a lack of sense competition and submission.

Both men and women caught up on what the thread describes shows they are bad at bargaining, specially in their benefit.


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## flamesabers (Nov 20, 2012)

Roslyn said:


> Doesn't everyone have something that we're somewhat shallow for having as a preference. I hadn't really been aware of my own until recently reading an article about blond men, it hit I really don't find blond guys attractive. That's just a non-starter. Money hasn't been such an issue for me. I went on a couple of dates with an older guy who ran a small non-profit. He had lots of solutions for not having much money and was very thrifty. I found language barriers got to be a problem for me and we both had time commitment problems. Lack of owning a car in a city isn't meaningful.
> 
> I do have some expectations. Guys around my age, coming out of college, my financial expectations are low. However, older men, if they're broke, there needs to be a reason. Have they been backpacking the world? Did they have an addiction that they're coming out of? Mental health issues? These aren't necessarily going to be reasons to say no, but I need full disclosure. I want to know what situation I'm walking into. If they just spent 5-10 in prison for a serious crime and that's why they're broke, I'll admit, I'm not sure I'd want to get involved there. My parents definitely wouldn't want me involved. I don't think it's unfair to have at least some reservations about a man or woman who has had time to build their life and should be comfortably self-supporting but aren't.
> 
> Also, I think it's a mistake that so many men aren't worried about a woman who is old enough to be financially stable. For their own sake, they should see this as a red flag.


I think there is good reason to hold certain dating standards. My only beef with this issue is men being demonized for having standards while women get a free pass for the same kind of behavior. So long as neither sex is being held to a double standard, I'm not going to complain about a person's dating standards. Either we all can freely be shallow or none of us should be. :wink:

If it's acceptable for a woman to say she won't date short guys, don't be outraged when a man says he won't date women who are flat-chested. If it's fine for a woman to say she won't date guys who are broke, don't get riled up when men say they won't date women who are single mothers.


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## Roslyn (Aug 2, 2018)

flamesabers said:


> I think there is good reason to hold certain dating standards. My only beef with this issue is men being demonized for having standards while women get a free pass for the same kind of behavior. So long as neither sex is being held to a double standard, I'm not going to complain about a person's dating standards. Either we all can freely be shallow or none of us should be. :wink:
> 
> If it's acceptable for a woman to say she won't date short guys, don't be outraged when a man says he won't date women who are flat-chested. If it's fine for a woman to say she won't date guys who are broke, don't get riled up when men say they won't date women who are single mothers.


Is it a large part of the population that has a double standard? For your example, I don't see a lot of single women who demand men be willing to date them, but won't date short men. And vice versa. How do we know if they're the same people? It could be that there are certain men and women blind to their own standards that freak out when they perceive they are being excluded unfairly (according to themselves.) I've seen short men and broke men get really very vocal about how shallow women are for not being willing to date them. Just like I've seen flat chested women and single mothers bitch about what is essentially the same thing. People not attracted to them. 

I think whiny people are loud and annoying and make their concerns out to be much larger among the general population than they really are.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

flamesabers said:


> My only beef with this issue is men being demonized for having standards while women get a *free pass for the same kind of behavior*.


I don't know what to say about the whole thing but I can say a lot about the free passes. A lot of men allow it, a lot of men enable this. Example:

There is this automobile-forum in my region, it's quite a huge community and everybody is like dying to keep their cars clean and neat. On a thread about "_being a man_", I was the one making fun out of them why? because in most cases they ALLOW women to treat their cars like shit, slam the doors, move the mirrors for make up reasons, get the car filled with garbage (food), scraps, etc. That was very funny. Those can tell another guy "get the fuck out of my car" for half that.

Besides depending on your culture it could be easy to witness a situation where a guy says something stupid and everyone says it out loud "fuck off idiot" and almost nobody will say the same to a woman in the same situation. The result is we might grow more realistic while they can grow on a separate reality. And I'm not even saying a thing on the differences when the woman is "hot".

As for dating standards we are all allowed to that, just as preferences, after all dating is personal and unique.



flamesabers said:


> If it's acceptable for a woman to say she won't date short guys, don't be outraged when a man says he won't date women who are flat-chested. If it's fine for a woman to say she won't date guys who are broke, don't get riled up when men say they won't date women who are single mothers.


I also don't know what to say about that exactly, but I can tell you one problem is power. Many people react to what you mention from the power side, as if they are broke that's ok but if a woman rejects them for being broke, damn... that's like their motivator to better themselves, fuck... what a sick motivation.

I've seen situations (and had close friends telling me this as a success story) where they go to X place for dinner and the guy taking the order acts as if they can't pay. What the... F... suddenly SOME react in anger and order expensive food because "they have power and money" WTF, so I can get you to spend more money mistreating you? that's what I mean about people reacting on the power line. So much for manning up and being alpha males.


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## flamesabers (Nov 20, 2012)

Roslyn said:


> Is it a large part of the population that has a double standard? For your example, I don't see a lot of single women who demand men be willing to date them, but won't date short men. And vice versa. How do we know if they're the same people? It could be that there are certain men and women blind to their own standards that freak out when they perceive they are being excluded unfairly (according to themselves.) I've seen short men and broke men get really very vocal about how shallow women are for not being willing to date them. Just like I've seen flat chested women and single mothers bitch about what is essentially the same thing. People not attracted to them.
> 
> I think whiny people are loud and annoying and make their concerns out to be much larger among the general population than they really are.


I'm not sure what percentage of the population has this double standard. I bring it up to remind the OP and any other person who thinks like her that dating standards are a two-way street. Don't cry foul when you find out that you don't meet the dating standards of some men.


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## Roslyn (Aug 2, 2018)

flamesabers said:


> I'm not sure what percentage of the population has this double standard. I bring it up to remind the OP and any other person who thinks like her that dating standards are a two-way street. Don't cry foul when you find out that you don't meet the dating standards of some men.


Unfortunately, the OP and people like her, are judgmental and closed minded. They aren't going to hear it. My life is more pleasant doing my best to ignore them.


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## ponpiri (Apr 30, 2017)

flamesabers said:


> I'm not sure what percentage of the population has this double standard. I bring it up to remind the OP and any other person who thinks like her that dating standards are a two-way street. Don't cry foul when you find out that you don't meet the dating standards of some men.


Why assume that OP [i don't know her] or any other woman would? 

I find it odd that anyone even cares. They're not invested in what OP, you or I think, so why be bothered that so-and-so doesn't want to date a broke man or so-and-so doesn't mind? If you're not going to date them, why is it anyone's business?

Anyway, your comment reminds me of an incident with a guy that approached me on OKC account years ago. We started talking and within 3 messages, he asked me what I do. I told him my profession and that I was in between jobs. He withdrew and said he was very successful and wasn't interested in broke chicks. I said OK and that was it.

Rejection really isn't a big deal and shouldn't be taken personally, but there are so many folks - especially these nice guys and good girls - that hold on to the anger as if they were entitled to that person's time and affection simply because they found them attractive and told them so. LOL

It's childish to be upset with a person because you didn't fit their standards. Move on and be happy with someone that wants you.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> snip


To me it just shows that you have zero idea about what being a full time parent is. Like, motherfuckers around thinking its relaxing but there's a reason that most of people call it a full time job. 

Do you even know how stuff is ran down in holiday camps ? you know these 9am - 01am jobs, everyday with maybe 1 day off if you're lucky ?

As a full time parent there is _no day off_. _You're basically taking all the responsability_ in raising someone that ultimately is your kid, and that ultimately basically is involving all your time. It's a much greater sacrifice than you'd think. 

"bUt ShE's A bRoKe StAy At HoMe GeTtInG aLl ThE mOnEy FrOm HeR HuSbAnD"

I'm not advocating anything here, hell I'd even work two jobs if it meant that my girl would forever stay at home to raise my kid if she wanted to do so.

Of course at some point there'd be some existential void directly related to your value and whatnot since you're out of the workforce or whatever the hell you wanna call it. But its insane to me that you're looking down on these individuals, lmao.

You really have no idea. 


This thread deserves to burn just like 70% of Salt's bait shit any time she's disappointed or thinking she's entitled to whatever value she's tying to people's egos. I'm pretty sure that she doesn't have a lot of unique skills making her someone to own, let alone rent. Like actual relevant day to day life skills


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

You know what's really ridiculous with such discussions? you know, where _some_ women pretend to push guys on "new relationship standards" and guys painfully want to satisfy them? and also those who say pussy makes rules? etc etc?

*Socially: you have options. That's it*.

It's pure snake oil sales, a lot of people forget they have a choice on personal preferences and personal standards. If those don't bring results right away is not an automatic answer on "they are wrong" (given the case IF they are healthy standards). I was discussing something similar over the weekend with a dear friend (woman) and we laughed at this shocking truth: in numbers, most likely where you live there are more women than men. In numbers (nothing personal) most places regardless of new salaries, etc most women can't afford a house (most men will), and last time I checked, valuable minorities are worth fighting for, not the other way around. This is something that can upset women at certain age, and can surprise most men at certain age: I mean at X point it's women who pursue you.




ponpiri said:


> Anyway, your comment reminds me of an incident with a guy that approached me on OKC account years ago. We started talking and within 3 messages, he asked me what I do. I told him my profession and that I was in between jobs. He withdrew and said he was very successful and wasn't interested in broke chicks. I said OK and that was it.
> 
> *Rejection really isn't a big deal and shouldn't be taken personally*, but there are so many folks - especially these nice guys and good girls - that hold on to the anger as if they were entitled to that person's time and affection simply because they found them attractive and told them so. LOL
> 
> It's childish to be upset with a person *because you didn't fit their standards*. Move on and be happy with someone that wants you.


I have to point out two diff things here. I agree on rejection shouldn't have to be such a big deal, it happens all the time, most people are rejected on restaurants but they are allowed to get in just because they are going to pay but in general a lot of people reject others, worst: due to any amount of superficial dumb things. Yes people apply entitlement A LOT, with and without a reason (you just have to read several of the OP threads to realize how much entitlement and rants are present).

Fitting their standards? we have to be aware many people are not even rejecting "you" but the conclusion they made about you, shit, a lot of people don't even know you to say they are rejecting you. A lot of those are just having a disagreement with themselves or speaking out loud about their own frustrations. Communication in psychology-real-life-situations is not as easy as "I say I like you because you are honest and hard working = meaning exactly that", in real life many people say those words but what they mean is "I found a fool that will provide for me". Life and relationships is also about reading between the lines and hidden messages (sometimes people are not aware 100% of what they are doing).


And the other thing is... kind of *contradicting *on the lines of "*rejection shouldn't be taken personally*". In my region people are more blunt towards men, so you can be told you are an idiot over X period of years, this can be false, and... it can be true. You have the power to change. The problem is most women (and it seems this happens most places) take rejection on denial-basis, so if someone rejects them "it's their fault" WTF. Then if you paid attention long enough you find close female friends who are jerks unable to understand the rejection happens in their world based on personal reasons, because that's really who they are.

Over the years while I grow older I find more cases of close friends (females) still unable to accept their wrongs on relationships, now ugly, old, more boring than before still approaching rejection as I mentioned a while ago: men fear me, I'm too independent, etc fuck it... they are as blind as they want to be. That's the problem when people go too far on thinking rejection it's not personal.


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)

Sygma said:


> To me it just shows that you have zero idea about what being a full time parent is. Like, motherfuckers around thinking its relaxing but there's a reason that most of people call it a full time job.


First, good for you that you're able to consistently fail to takeaway the actual points of a discussion; at least you got that going for you.

Second, wrong. I never imply that parenting is easy. I did however imply that being a stay at home partner in order to do chores for the other isn't something that should be celebrated, because the ability to do those things responsibly is part of being a fucking adult.

But it's awesome that you're at least consistent since your first post here - trying to win hearts of strawmen. gOlDiGginGnUnS LoLOL.



> Do you even know how stuff is ran down in holiday camps ? you know these 9am - 01am jobs, everyday with maybe 1 day off if you're lucky ?


Um... what? Who gives a fuck? What does this have to with YOU calling out the TS for having a gold digger mentality, yet failing to show how/where; even after I've directly asked you to _too_ - in the last post quoted?

I mean if you're going to make strawmen, maybe make them actually relatable so it at least doesn't look like you're just blathering about...

Like this:

Question(s) for all goodie two shoe, _respectable_ humans who 'judge' all these inferior superficial, gold digging monstrosities:


If a family of 3 has an annual income above the poverty line at let's say 10k/year, and you had the means to raise that to 25k/year at no cost to you or anyone, would you?


If a single person has an annual income of below the poverty line at let's say 5k/year, and you had the means to raise that to 25k/year at no cost to you or anyone, would you?
Well, since I'm psychic, I already know that since _y'all_ such 'great' human being(s)(I mean claim to be), you'd say yes to each of those. Why _not_ help people live easier lives right?

Do you see where I'm going with this and how it relates? No, of course you probably wouldn't with that terrible ability at drawing conclusions based off what's being written... ready? Here:

Ask either the family or the single person who accepts the income raise to a minimum entry level if they believe themselves to be gold diggers for doing so. Do you know what the answer to that is? Would _you_ call _them_ gold diggers? Do you know what this means by our own answer/reasoning?

Wanting $15-20k +/- "insert random number" worth of "things" doesn't fucking mean shit when it comes to 'gold digger(s)'. A gold digger is person(s) with 'gold digger' mentality.

Nothing in the OP suggests that they OR their 'friends' are 'gold diggers'.

Honestly. Stop with this other nonsense, because it's slightly pitiful, reading as if in a barn by yourself rolling around in bales of hay.



> As a full time parent there is _no day off_. _You're basically taking all the responsability_ in raising someone that ultimately is your kid, and that ultimately basically is involving all your time. It's a much greater sacrifice than you'd think.
> 
> "bUt ShE's A bRoKe StAy At HoMe GeTtInG aLl ThE mOnEy FrOm HeR HuSbAnD"
> 
> ...


Um... good for you? Lol.

Show me where I've legitimately 'looked down' on anyone.

Stating 'facts' of hypothetical situations; that some people are too poor to take care of themselves or others, and probably shouldn't be a) dating and/or b) complaining and attacking the rejector(s) because of _their own_ circumstances, has nothing to do with how I personally treat/think/feel about 'poor'/disabled/under privileged/over worked/people, parents, students, etc...

But what can I expect from yee full of fallacy, when called out for bullshit...



> You really have no idea.


Lol, if only you knew instead of assuming more silliness.

Btw love that you're able to write to me all this nonsense on the internet, but... why aren't you in third world countries dating the literal dirt poor? I mean, heck they're human beings deserving even more than the rest of us in these first world nations. _OH!_ but I guess _you're_ a gold digger because you're on your mobile. On your internet. With your HVAC. With your running water, electricity, fridge, books, paper and pencil... I guess asking you to read into this message and _"誠 - Look beyond your eyes"_ would be _too_ much trouble bordering hemorrhaging.

And to reiterate, two people meeting initially for dating, generally aren't planning their lives, kids, deciding who's staying at home and who's doing the supporting. Keep blowing smoke up the stay at home strawman when it's also - as or more - stressful and mentally challenging for a sole bread winner. *Rolls around*



> This thread deserves to burn just like 70% of Salt's bait shit any time she's disappointed or thinking she's entitled to whatever value she's tying to people's egos. I'm pretty sure that she doesn't have a lot of unique skills making her someone to own, let alone rent. Like actual relevant day to day life skills


Of course, on the attack again for no reason because you're bad at comprehension, proving points or debating them; which is sooo obvious when you try to make a point in last post yet... as pointed out, that same point already stated in the OP.

Not to mention, if you notice the OP, even talks about not wanting to get involved in case a kid arrives and the parents aren't able to keep the child out of poverty. Meanwhile, here you are going on and on about how hard it is to be a parent, but you can't agree with the OP with not wanting to bring a child into the world as a couple facing - possible - financial poverty? Like, where are your eyes? Or heart. Bravo.

Yep... TS indeed has _unique_ 'skills', while your logic so full of... wisdum.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> ..


dude you can also move on you know, I don't care any longer. you got different values and whatnot, thats fine


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## Westy365 (Jun 21, 2012)

I get what's being said here, but many high school and/or college students don't have much money (if any). By using this logic, they wouldn't be able to date. 

While I don't think one should spend their parents' money to pay for a date, I don't think all dates should cost money. It's true that options vary depending on where one is, but there are always free things one can do for a date. Simply going on a picnic, walking through the park, or strolling through an art gallery can all be good dates. It depends on the person. 

The real issue is ambition. If a guy is broke because he's lazy and won't get a job, then that's when there's a big problem. Poor money management is also a turn off (i.e. he spends all his money on gambling, cigarettes, etc).

If he's working on his degree and money is tight, then it should generally be understandable if he can't afford much. I just think it's a bit oversimplified to say that all broke guys shouldn't pursue girls.

More important than money is time. All dates cost time. If a guy doesn't have time to set aside for dates and/or a relationship, then he shouldn't bother with them, unless he's going to make time. 

Just a little food for thought.


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

All I'll say is, _you don't need money to have fun_. roud:

...

And if we're ascribing to this silly standard, then it goes both ways. 'Broke girls' shouldn't enter into relationships either. The idea that a guy has to pay for everything and the girl just smiles and bats an eye is outdated, at best. It takes two to tangle, and that includes finances.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

ponpiri said:


> Why assume that OP [i don't know her] or any other woman would?
> 
> I find it odd that anyone even cares. They're not invested in what OP, you or I think, so why be bothered that so-and-so doesn't want to date a broke man or so-and-so doesn't mind? If you're not going to date them, why is it anyone's business?


I think the phrasing is how the thread got so heated: The OP didn't just say she didn't want to date broke guys, she didn't even just try to rationalize why it was ok that she didn't want to date broke guys (though that was included and I wouldn't be surprised if being judged for that was the cause for the initial venting), she didn't even just say that girls shouldn't accept broke guys. While all of that was included/implied, she turned the last one around and declared that broke guys shouldn't pursue girls.

Now the motivation might still just be the part that you've said - her not being interested in broke guys - and possibly feeling frustrated at the judgement she receives for that and expressing that frustration in a snarky way. But the implication of the snark is that it's the responsibility of all the men who don't meet her financial standards to preemptively reject themselves out of the dating pool in the name of all women. @Denture did it well by reversing it to physically attractive girls - the difference between someone saying he'll only date girls that are pretty vs saying that all girls who don't meet his beauty standards should not try dating & nun their way out the genepool. 

There are ways to have a productive conversation about women with financial expectations of men. It's not an easy topic, it speaks to some deeply seeded gendered fears, on the male part I wouldn't be surprised if "she only likes me for my income" was a fear when income was measured in cuts of mammoth meat (or really before we were **** sapiens - whenever our ancestors have evolved to hide ovulation), and likewise with female fears - it really shouldn't be that surprising that our instincts still have the lessons of the countless women who have died mid pregnancy or held dying infants during horrible winters because they've gambled on men who couldn't provide - we are all here because of the women who successfully avoided that.


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## Potatooesunshinerays (Dec 26, 2017)

salt said:


> if you cant get a first date, or if the first date fails because she perceives you as too poor, shes not a gold-digger.
> most girls are NOT gold-digger, youre just TOO poor man.
> i hate those “social experiment” videos where the guy arrives in a fucking sad bicycle, the girl declines. when hes in a lambo, the girl accepts. well its because you were TOO poor, you can just arrive in a normal car/scooter, if she declines then ONLY then is she a gold-digger.
> if youre attractive, your income/allowance/family is just normal, average earning, she will accept you.
> ...


Behold the truth. If you want a quality woman, or any woman at all, then have some resources for fucks sake.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Potatooesunshinerays said:


> Behold the truth. If you want a quality woman, or any woman at all, then have some resources for fucks sake.


My resource is under my belly, for fuck sake, literally. 

Anyway, thanks for being honest. OP and you. I give more appreciation to women who are true in their intention and motivation. You know what you want and you don't expect compromises. More power to you, girl.

Now, do you want us male to be honest too? Because my experiences told me, women wouldn't really like my honesty.

_Sent sans PC_


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## Potatooesunshinerays (Dec 26, 2017)

contradictionary said:


> My resource is under my belly, for fuck sake, literally.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for being honest. OP and you. I give more appreciation to women who are true in their intention and motivation. You know what you want and you don't expect compromises. More power to you, girl.
> 
> ...


Nah is fine. It depends on what you've said honestly.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Potatooesunshinerays said:


> Behold the truth. If you want a quality woman, or any woman at all, then have some resources for fucks sake.


True. Funny enough many guys in the middle of the date say "mm I'm short in money" and that solves many things regarding boring dates and explanations, boring dates go away by themselves. It's just not about quality woman, it's about reality checks. 

Just as one song around... _if you are so clever... why do you sleep alone tonight?_ ohhhh not so clever then. The problem is denial, women fall into that more than men in this regard, and many get old still believing their own made up stories of great self value (while nobody buys)


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## WhatIsYourConfirmationBias (May 10, 2018)

Well it appears I no longer give two fucks if I'm posting in the appropriate thread or not...So I'm posting this song here, because why the fuck not? Enjoy.


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## angrymobfunrun (Aug 28, 2018)

For me, it would matter more *why* he was broke. Hard times happen.


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## Tijaax (Dec 14, 2017)

In the end, despite exceptions, the inertia remains the same, we act like barbarians and move for the interest of security and self-social preservation.

Romantic love is a delusion on a survival mindset.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

This is the oldest trick many women try to play on guys: they want to be the ones saying what's good and what's bad, if you are good or if you are bad, it doesn't matter how you live! she will decide about you if that's good or bad, is the power of reject.... no... *is the power of disapproval*. There are books about this where many men prove to suffer whenever they see a women looking at them with disapproval. Twisted weak minds in my opinion. It's not an universal power, it's a supposed power.




angrymobfunrun said:


> For me, it would matter more *why* he was broke. Hard times happen.


True. Besides broke can mean diff things to diff people, I might be broke but able to pay things my date can't... and in cash... (yes I'm serious). Who decides if the guy is broke? perhaps he refuses to pay free meals and free fun for strangers, and above all *who says they are dating?* ha ha ha there is a saying in my country "you can't kiss a girl nowadays because then she starts telling people you are on a relationship".

I posted before how many women react badly to men refusing to do as they say, in result: you are gay, poor, broke, stupid, fear of commitment, etc when "I just don't like you too much... stranger, and no we are not on a relationship". I had situations where the woman felt offended because I introduced her to others as a friend... a friend.... wtf I don't even know many things about them friend was being polite.



Tijaax said:


> In the end, despite exceptions, the inertia remains the same, we act like barbarians and move for the interest of security and self-social preservation.
> 
> Romantic love is a delusion on a survival mindset.


That's quite true in many cases.


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