# How to distinguish between CP6 and type8？



## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> Time to shake up the status quo a bit and hopefully create some discussion around this.
> 
> The core of type 6 is not really about fear. It's about uncertainty. Uncertainty may certainly lead to fear but it doesn't have to.
> 
> ...


What you said sounds ok, but somehow it doesn't really resonate. I think fear definitely is the core feeling of type 6. While fear may arise in response to uncertainty, uncertainty itself is a universal constant for EVERYONE of any type. Different types can deal with it differently. The 5 will bundle themselves up with their knowledge to eliminate and purge their environment of uncertainty. Assertive types may attempt to squash uncertainty and state that things will definitely go the way they say it will. 

However, the defining characteristic of the 6 is that they respond to the uncertainty with fear. Counterphobia itself means to go against and fight fear. If counterphobic 6s simply attempted to eliminate uncertainty, then nearly everyone in the world would be a counterphobic 6, because a lot of us are motivated towards knowing how the future will unfold and moving to ensure we fulfill our desires. 

No, the goal of counterphobia is to prove to yourself that you're not scared of anything or anyone. It arises from an inherent belief that the 6 is not strong and capable enough to survive in the world, and combined with the line to 3, it can manifest as a need to appear competent and successful as a way of showing others that they are fully prepared to deal with the world. The result of this "preparation" can make them look quite similar to 8s, but the difference is that 8s inherently consider themselves as proficient survivalists and know how to get the gears going in this fucked up world. They're not scared of it because they don't have anything to lose -- whatever innocence they had was stripped out of them early. But the 6 is deathly scared of how bad the world is, and in contrast to the 8, they don't believe they can get out of life in one piece. So they make themselves fierce and powerful, but the underlying motivation is to protect themselves. 

Many 6s can use their counterphobia to become healthy and develop a positive, self-affirming and headstrong attitude towards life, converting their bluster into real confidence in themselves, because hey, they've confronted their fears several times and it's really not so bad at all! But when unhealthy, 6s in general are motivated, at their core, by a paralyzing horror of the unfolding of the universe. The unfolding of the universe is uncertain and bumpy, but EVERY type recognizes that and can be motivated to overcome that. The difference is 6s fear that the nature of the universe will hurt and maim them, and want to spin a protective shell around themselves, their loved ones, their beliefs etc. (or have someone else protect them in their stead). Eliminating uncertainty is ONE way of doing this, which is why a lot of 6s are interested in reliable, secure facts and systems -- 6w5s in particular like to investigate and get down to the bottom of things. 

Another difference between cp6s and 8s is that 8s have the issue of "regaining" what they have lost -- virtues such as hope, love, trust, unity, compassion -- and without these they are charred, wounded shells of simmering anger and distrust. 6s don't consider themselves as having lost these things, which is why they feel perpetually vulnerable, because they attempt to protect a soft inner core from the harshness of the world. Compare this to 8s, who feel they have "lost" that soft core, and are afraid of making themselves vulnerable by inviting those emotions in. 

@_Entropic_ @_Kipposhi_ hope I've done justice to 8s and @_Can Wang_, to answer your original question.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Night Huntress said:


> However, the defining characteristic of the 6 is that they respond to the uncertainty with fear.


Do you find yourself responding to uncertainty in other ways besides fear?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> Do you find yourself responding to uncertainty in other ways besides fear?


I can have several emotions in response to uncertainty, such as annoyance, impatience, etc etc, but fear/anxiety is almost always one of them.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

This is turning into pretty much the most intelligent and thoughtful discussion of what it really means to be either of these types I think I've ever seen on the internet... Generally, this topic has been done to death and comes off being really insulting to both types.

Well, Night Huntress, I'll take a moment to respond to a couple of your ideas since they were very good.



Night Huntress said:


> What you said sounds ok, but somehow it doesn't really resonate. I think fear definitely is the core feeling of type 6. While fear may arise in response to uncertainty, uncertainty itself is a universal constant for EVERYONE of any type. Different types can deal with it differently. The 5 will bundle themselves up with their knowledge to eliminate and purge their environment of uncertainty. Assertive types may attempt to squash uncertainty and state that things will definitely go the way they say it will.


Yeah, this part is true. Uncertainty is a given in life, but I think 6s face the issue most directly (the head center does, too, though more generally). I remember living a few months ago...I'd recently come back from living alone in a socially-fragmented third world country, and someone asked me in disbelief, "How did you deal with the uncertainty?"

And to me, it was like...that wasn't even a consideration. It's sort of a blindspot with me. I can worry about _specific_ bad things happening (what if this food makes me throw up?) but it's almost never generalized. Uncertainty doesn't really bother me, or I don't see life through that filter anyway.

I do have the phenomenon of thinking of thinking that things will go the way I want them to. It's not generally done to _squash_ uncertainty, so much as I get this vision of how I want to do things, and I really do think I'll pull it off. This, of course, leads to much frustration, disillusionment, and rage.



> No, the goal of counterphobia is to prove to yourself that you're not scared of anything or anyone. It arises from an inherent belief that the 6 is not strong and capable enough to survive in the world, and combined with the line to 3, it can manifest as a need to appear competent and successful as a way of showing others that they are fully prepared to deal with the world. The result of this "preparation" can make them look quite similar to 8s, but the difference is that 8s inherently consider themselves as proficient survivalists and know how to get the gears going in this fucked up world. They're not scared of it because they don't have anything to lose -- whatever innocence they had was stripped out of them early. But the 6 is deathly scared of how bad the world is, and in contrast to the 8, they don't believe they can get out of life in one piece. So they make themselves fierce and powerful, but the underlying motivation is to protect themselves.


I didn't quite have a life-defining, stripped-of-innocence moment as a youngster. Definitely happened as an adult. Prior to this, I was genuinely curious about the world. I suppose I wasn't overly scared of it because I saw it in terms of potential gain (not in the capitalist sense--in the sense of like, learning and experiences). I definitely had things to lose (which I did), but at the time it seemed worth the risk, and I was sure I was competent enough to handle it if something went wrong (which it did).

Since that time, I've definitely got the "nothing left to lose" mentality, and it doesn't seem very healthy to me.



> Another difference between cp6s and 8s is that 8s have the issue of "regaining" what they have lost -- virtues such as hope, love, trust, unity, compassion -- and without these they are charred, wounded shells of simmering anger and distrust. 6s don't consider themselves as having lost these things, which is why they feel perpetually vulnerable, because they attempt to protect a soft inner core from the harshness of the world. Compare this to 8s, who feel they have "lost" that soft core, and are afraid of making themselves vulnerable by inviting those emotions in.


Very true, but as I alluded to above, I basically had to be rendered into unhealthy levels to really see this dynamic. When I was at a more normal level, I was just sort of cynical about my ability to experience those things. "I don't even know what love is." "I'm not capable of compassion." I remember walking home one night and feeling sorry for this beggar woman...the compassion arose, and I was like, "WHAT IS THIS HORRIBLE FEELING??" Feeling like these feelings have actually been _destroyed_ is, I think, a sign of trauma. (Hope, however, has always been there, and still is. It pulled me through the bad times.)

I'm kind of tired now, but I might put my own ideas here eventually.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

enneathusiast said:


> @_Ace Face_
> 
> There are a few things I've omitted (for sake of not getting too wordy and trying to focus on a single point).
> 
> 1) I believe we are all nine types. Our dominant type is where we get fixated - it becomes our primary emphasis and preoccupation for how we deal with life. Each of us has access to all these things attributed to any given type (to varying degrees for each individual).


I think we can experience a connection with all nine types in some way, shape, or form. I personally would not say that we *are* all nine types, but I can respect the general ideology behind it I suppose. 




> 2) The contrast I was making with uncertainty was between uncertainty and fear (I was trying to keep the focus limited).* The more complete label in regard to type 6 that I use is to describe the underlying preoccupation is certainty through mental reassurance.*


This is what I was chewing on for the better part of the day. I think this might ring true for 6s in some capacity, but even then, reassurance isn't something that only 6s want. 1s may want reassurance that they handled something the right way, 2s may want reassurance that they are loved, 3s my want reassurance that they are valuable and worthy... you see where this is going. Once again, we find ourselves in a predicament that will push us beyond over-simplified trait-typing. Wanting reassurance is a people thing, and everyone wants it for different reasons. 



> So, for me it's not that everyone doesn't focus on uncertainty from time-to-time. It's that type 6 describes an underlying habit of attention that is preoccupied with seeking certainty through mental reassurance.


Reassurance really is a people thing, not a 6 thing. 



> It isn't based simply on fear or cowardice as the traditional Enneagram or Ichazo's ego fixations label it.


I truly admire the attempt to counter the stereotypes and misconceptions surrounding type 6 (they do peeve me) but at the same time, I truly believe your description of uncertainty being a core issue for type 6 is over-simplified. 



> Although the habit of attention may lead to fear, it may also lead to mistrust, suspicion of motivations, desire for consistency, looking to authorities, etc.


Yes, it can, but it does not always. 



> Certainty through mental reassurance is just a better starting point than fear or cowardice (which seems to lead to negative stereotypes and stays on the surface of things).


I can't fully agree or disagree here. I hate the stereotypes, too, believe me. But I don't think uncertainty is necessarily a better starting point.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kipposhi said:


> Very true, but as I alluded to above, I basically had to be rendered into unhealthy levels to really see this dynamic. When I was at a more normal level, I was just sort of cynical about my ability to experience those things. * "I don't even know what love is." "I'm not capable of compassion." I remember walking home one night and feeling sorry for this beggar woman...the compassion arose, and I was like, "WHAT IS THIS HORRIBLE FEELING??" * Feeling like these feelings have actually been _destroyed_ is, I think, a sign of trauma. (Hope, however, has always been there, and still is. It pulled me through the bad times.)


When I was at my absolute unhealthiest in my teenage years, I even denied the experience of compassion and thought of it was absolutely horrid and a lie, too. Compassion, in my world, didn't exist and I didn't allow it to exist, and anyone who spoke of the idea to be kind to those lesser off were just telling nice fabricated lies to make us feel better about ourselves. I intrinsically believed that humans were motivated by selfishness and also denied the existence of altruism. I was also extremely misanthropic and harbored ideas where I thought it'd be better if we had a nuclear war and killed ourselves off, because I could not see any other way to end the bile I thought humanity was. 

I'm still cynical, but I guess I'm not as misanthropic as I were.

You know, this makes me wonder if Zizek is an 8, because he definitely has this cynical outlook I find very relatable:


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Entropic said:


> You look at the motivations, pretty much.


It's (one of) differences between me and him.

Entropic will keep pushing until well until something breaks.
I'll react and strike at the weak spots ONLY.

The very fact lies in the pudding. He is more stubborn than I could ever be-yet another 8 trait. Hell, I can't imagine me being stubborn due to ever shifting reactions. Also, I fear *NOTHING*! To be more exact, I don't fear *ANYTHING*(previous word construction could be interpretted as if I were afraid of nothingness / Void itself).

...whatever :angry::crazy:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Can Wang said:


> Thanks.


6s are generally more high-strung and "bundle of nerves" (either explicitly or under the surface). 8s are....chill. in fact, their sense of calm can be almost creepy to more anxious types. even 8's anger has a sort of apathy to it until you severely piss them off (at which point, their anger usually isn't very "emotional" in the typical sense of the word). 8s typically have an energy more like a predator. there is something "missing", even if they might come off as friendly


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 6s are generally more high-strung and "bundle of nerves" (either explicitly or under the surface). 8s are....chill. in fact, their sense of calm can be almost creepy to more anxious types. even 8's anger has a sort of apathy to it until you severely piss them off (at which point, their anger usually isn't very "emotional" in the typical sense of the word). 8s typically have an energy more like a predator. there is something "missing", even if they might come off as friendly


Hey I've been very good about not playing the pedant card up till now, but seriously man. _Where are you getting some of this stuff_?? What do you mean, "Something's missing"? What does it even mean that anger has apathy to it? Predator? Wut? For real, man, I don't think that's very helpful for the OP, because _I've_ certainly never met anyone like this.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> Hey I've been very good about not playing the pedant card up till now, but seriously man. _Where are you getting some of this stuff_??


- Naranjo
- lots of experience with 8s 



> What do you mean, "Something's missing"?


what's missing is that they just....don't care. 



> What does it even mean that anger has apathy to it?


most people's anger is more emotional. either frustrated, frantic, ashamed, defensive, hurt, etc. 8s and 1s have a more callous anger most of the time. 



> Predator?


that's right, predator. they are coorelated with antisocial personality disorder



> Wut? For real, man, I don't think that's very helpful for the OP, because _I've_ certainly never met anyone like this.


I've met many people like this, and not just 8s. I've known a few 2s, a Social 3, a 7w8, a Sexual 4 and a 5, all of whom I would consider to have predatory personalities.


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> Hey I've been very good about not playing the pedant card up till now, but seriously man. _Where are you getting some of this stuff_?? What do you mean, "Something's missing"? What does it even mean that anger has apathy to it? Predator? Wut? For real, man, I don't think that's very helpful for the OP, because _I've_ certainly never met anyone like this.


I meet other 8s like that all the time.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - Naranjo
> - lots of experience with 8s


I type as 8, and I've read Naranjo. That's not what I perceive in either case.



> what's missing is that they just....don't care.


They strike me as being very passionate and determined, which must surely come from a place of caring. I'd say type 9s, if anything, fit the "something missing...don't care" mold even better. You engage them, and they disengage; lights are on but no one's home.



> most people's anger is more emotional. either frustrated, frantic, ashamed, defensive, hurt, etc. 8s and 1s have a more callous anger most of the time.


I'd say it's arguably purer.



> that's right, predator. they are coorelated with antisocial personality disorder


Predator generally implies large cats, wolves, etc that eat other animals. ASPD implies a problem fitting in with society, and even actively turning against it, aiming to destroy. Speaking from experience, this doesn't always imply devouring other humans, in whatever sense. It's often destructive, but that's not the same.



> I've met many people like this, and not just 8s. I've known a few 2s, a Social 3, a 7w8, a Sexual 4 and a 5, all of whom I would consider to have predatory personalities.


You shouldn't associate "predatory" with 8s, then. It clearly spans the range. Though you certainly seem to meet more interesting people than I do.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Remcy said:


> I meet other 8s like that all the time.


Do you think _you're_ like that?


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> Do you think _you're_ like that?


Yup.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Remcy said:


> Yup.


Please describe your experience here.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> I type as 8, and I've read Naranjo. That's not what I perceive in either case.


respectfully, you've struck me as more of a head type for awhile. you haven't said anything that would definitively make me say "you can't be an 8!", but it's enough to where I'm not inclined to take your personal observations into account as data with regards to 8s




> They strike me as being very passionate and determined, which must surely come from a place of caring. I'd say type 9s, if anything, fit the "something missing...don't care" mold even better. You engage them, and they disengage; lights are on but no one's home.


it's a different kind of passion. an _instinctual_ based passion. some instinctual based passion is good, the problem is that they push this instinctual passion forward to prevent room for any "softer" emotions to arise. 



> Predator generally implies large cats, wolves, etc that eat other animals. ASPD implies a problem fitting in with society, and even actively turning against it, aiming to destroy. Speaking from experience, this doesn't always imply devouring other humans, in whatever sense. It's often destructive, but that's not the same.


you're being overly literal and pedantic. I am talking about having the _demeanor_ and _psychology_ of a predator. sadism, thrill of the hunt, tendency to minimize people as harmless pieces of prey.



> You shouldn't associate "predatory" with 8s, then. It clearly spans the range.


but it's true of 8s more than any of those other types (except for maybe 2s, but they're "emotional predators" rather than predators in the more instinctual sense)



> Though you certainly seem to meet more interesting people than I do.


indeed. I seldom pay attention to anyone who isn't :tongue:


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> Please describe your experience here.


I've only been really angry maybe 2-3 or times in my life. In those cases it's just pure destruction and hate - I have no control of myself and just want to channel that anger into something.

Then there's the "pseudo-anger". If something's going towards the shitters, there's yelling a bit, showing frustration, disappointment etc. It gets people take situation seriously, try and fix things, so rather than an outburst, it's more of an influence method.

And I do agree that 8s are predatory - I do feel like a predator quite often, and am looking for things to pounce on.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Remcy said:


> I've only been really angry maybe 2-3 or times in my life.


lol, isn't this kind of contradictory to what type 8 is about, being you know, the most angry type, and all? And is the most consciously aware of it, and the most consciously indulges in their anger?

Also, I think people get too much hung on sadism and the sadistic aspect of the 8 personality that Naranjo associates the type with. Anyone can experience sadism or be sadistic. It's not type specific or explicit to 8 for the same reason certainty isn't explicit to 6. 

There's a reason other authors do not endorse Naranjo's connections to the DSM-III, which I should add, is really darn outdated by now (the most recent revision is V, and many of the personality disorders that Naranjo uses to in Character & Neurosis are now rewritten or understood in very different terms).


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## Remcy (Dec 19, 2011)

Entropic said:


> lol, isn't this kind of contradictory to what type 8 is about, being you know, the most angry type, and all? And is the most consciously aware of it, and the most consciously indulges in, their anger?


I'm Sp 8w9 - it breaks a lot of 8 stereotypes.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

drmiller100 said:


> A friendly question. when you say you "see" all the possibilites, you don't have to literally SEE (with your eyes) the possibilities. You can "imagine" the possibilities.
> 
> but in your mind's eye, you do "see" them.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm talking "vision" in the sense of "I have a vision", not in the sense of ocular care. Obviously, it's often going to be in my mind's eye rather than my literal eye.

I can't speak for Se-doms, but "seeing truth", to me, has more to do with perceiving _situations as a whole_ than with either processing observations/facts of tangible reality, OR using something concrete to generate multiple potential options. Again, truth to me is less cognitive than all this--it's not usually about possibilities.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> "Truth" is not an objective quality in any way, but something which has multiple facets and can be interpreted and applied in numerous contexts. Claiming otherwise is frankly intellectually dishonest, especially given the situation at hand. Not even these scientific or mathematical truths that you mention are necessarily truths outside of the frameworks which created them.
> 
> This is how _I_ understand truth. Now stop make assumptions about how I think or perceive the world.


Again, a difference between us. Truth to me absolutely can be objective. There is objective truth in my world. That objective truth exists whether I know it or not. I am not the entire universe.

So as I understand your position, you believe truth is relative and subjective to your interpretation. 

A next stage is when you find a special person (soul mate) and together you create a set of truths for the two of you. 

Further yet is when you can become a leader in society leading others, setting trends, working on your own creations. 

Further yet is when you lose track of ONE truth, and realize there are many truth's, all concurrent, all external to you, all conflicting, all valid, all changing, and the hard part is creating a system of systems in which to keep track of understanding of systems. 

Source: Kegan, Maslow, Leahy, et al.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

@_Entropic_ @_drmiller100_

I see where you're both coming from. I think there are both objective and subjective truths. 

Objective truth: Some fire trucks are red. Obviously, we know this to be true. Most people would see no problem with this because it is a true statement.


Subjective truth: Nobody finds me attractive. This is negative self-talk, but people do this sort of thing to themselves all the time. People may honestly BELIEVE this about themselves, even if it's not necessarily objectively true. To them, it's a very real truth. It's also insanely unhealthy, but it is what it is. I could also use a more positive example... i.e. "I can do anything!" I think you get the gist. 

I think there are both subjective and objective truths in people's lives. You don't have to pick one over the other as both of them do exist.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> @_Entropic_ @_drmiller100_
> 
> I see where you're both coming from. I think there are both objective and subjective truths.
> 
> ...


I understand what you mean, but in this particular situation I do think that words in themselves are agnostic or without inherent meaning outside of what we define them to connote, which is what I was trying to express all along. I am not disputing whether the fire truck is red or not, but I am disputing the definition and meaning of red in itself. Change the definition of red, and you change whether the fire truck is red or not, if you understand? That's my problem, here. "Truth", as a word, is meaningless to me, and has multiple connotations in a wide variety of different contexts. There's the 6 idea of what truth is, because that is how they perceive it, and there's the 8 truth, and 1 truth, and 2 truth and the list goes on. It's about the perception of things. Everyone experiences something to be true, but none and all of them are all equally true, and the lesson of holy truth or the knowledge derived from point 8 is to realize this. I therefore find it highly disingenuous to claim that only 8s care for truths and 6s not. Go speak to any 6 and of course one will find that they care a great deal for truth, in a sense way more than 8s do, because they take their truths for granted, whereas 6s, do not.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Entropic said:


> I understand what you mean, but in this particular situation I do think that words in themselves are agnostic or without inherent meaning outside of what we define them to connote, which is what I was trying to express all along. I am not disputing whether the fire truck is red or not, but I am disputing the definition and meaning of red in itself. Change the definition of red, and you change whether the fire truck is red or not, if you understand? That's my problem, here. "Truth", as a word, is meaningless to me, and has multiple connotations in a wide variety of different contexts. There's the 6 idea of what truth is, because that is how they perceive it, and there's the 8 truth, and 1 truth, and 2 truth and the list goes on. It's about the perception of things. Everyone experiences something to be true, but none and all of them are all equally true, and the lesson of holy truth or the knowledge derived from point 8 is to realize this.


I see what you're saying, but I fail to see how what you described isn't the same thing as the example I gave for subjective truth.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> I see what you're saying, but I fail to see how what you described isn't the same thing as the example I gave for subjective truth.


To put it this way: not everyone perceives red the same, or understand what a truck is the same. It may seem self-evident that everyone sees the world the same way you do, but people don't. Some people think that particular color is pink, but others think it's red. Yet they are observing exactly the same color. 

This may veer more into the subject of philosophy, but I do not believe in that humans are innately capable of experiencing reality truly objectively as it is. Our perception is inherently limited. Even attempts at objectifying reality e.g. quantifying colors as simply being a spectra of how light particles are reflected on a surface, do not tell us what the world really is like. All we've done is that we've created a standard to agree upon to how we should interpret it precisely because there are different ways of how to do that.

I do not care for whether drmiller wants to make claims about how he sees reality and that's true, if he thinks there are flying pinks elephants in the sky he'd be my guest; I only care insofar that I think it is extremely incorrect to claim that 8s have status quo on the word and experience of "truth".


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Entropic said:


> To put it this way: not everyone perceives red the same, or understand what a truck is the same. It may seem self-evident that everyone sees the world the same way you do, but people don't. Some people think that particular color is pink, but others think it's red. Yet they are observing exactly the same color.
> 
> This may veer more into the subject of philosophy, but I do not believe in that humans are innately capable of experiencing reality truly objectively as it is. Our perception is inherently limited. Even attempts at objectifying reality e.g. quantifying colors as simply being a spectra of how light particles are reflected on a surface, do not tell us what the world really is like. All we've done is that we've created a standard to agree upon to how we should interpret it precisely because there are different ways of how to do that.
> 
> I do not care for whether drmiller wants to make claims about how he sees reality and that's true, if he thinks there are flying pinks elephants in the sky he'd be my guest; I only care insofar that I think it is extremely incorrect to claim that 8s have status quo on the word and experience of "truth".


You and @drmiller100 don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, and that's fine. That in and of itself displays that people have different ideas of what the truth is. I suppose this is the basis for my confusion concerning the topic. Do you not believe that there are objective truths at all? Do you believe that all truth is subjective? I think your answers to these questions will give me more clarity on where you're at on this subject.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> There is a lot of truth in what you say, but i disagree people will interfere. The VAST majority of people won't stop and help a lady with a broken down car or to change a tire. The vast majority of people won't take time to help a stranger to a shelter. The vast majority of people won't stop for a car wreck to see people are ok. The vast majority of people are not in Search and Rescue as volunteers. I'll agree many 8's won't interfere either. Perhaps the Sp 8 means they worry about their and stay out of that kind of trouble, but they do feel the tug and desire to jump in.
> 
> A 2 might interfere in a stranger's beating, but would do it gently, and with kindness as the first step, and do what they can to defuse the situation. A 2 will ABSOLUTELY devolve to their strong 8 connection if they must. Attack a 2's kids, and see the 8 roar to life.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me hopping in the conversation, I think it's true that a lot of people are "selfish", but not always so much in the sense that they do not care about others so much as when they weigh the options they decide that interfering doesn't seem like the best choice to them. 

Sometimes that can be because of ambiguity of situation (how much is too much with a parent disciplining their child? Is a smack on the hand too much? On the head?) or other times that can be because of the perception that they are already low on resources required, and interfering would drain them of what they have and need. Last night I was leaving late from work when a coworker was having car trouble in the parking lot - admittedly, I was very reluctant to ask if he needed help - I was exhausted! I did ask if he could benefit from my jumper cables, but I left after he said no. I know very little about car engines and there were more knowledgeable coworkers around making sure he had a ride home. I could have stayed and done more, but I had to work early the next morning. Perhaps it was selfish - but if I was exhausted at work the next morning, where would that leave my coworkers? My department? My family? I ended up working almost 10 more hours today, and the coworker with the car trouble made it in as well. Maybe those who lean more towards 9 and 7 also just tend to think that things will work out, or that people will ask for help as needed. 

What I have to say in this regard about 8 versus 6 is that I think we both have a protective streak, but it seems like 8s are more inclined to feel certainty in a situation, to have a more confident grasp of when they want to interfere and that they have the "right" to do so, while I think 6s have a harder time deciding if it appropriate for them to step in, as well as if it is worth the potential risk. In a situation like the one you mentioned with the arguing guys, I think I would have walked by too, not because I don't care but because I don't feel like I would have had a good idea of the best course of action in that situation. I don't think I would have thought of telling a guard to call the cops. I can see my 9w8 brother doing something about it, too, though. I just don't know how he knows what to do sometimes. 

I have heard before that 8s are more protectors and 6s are more defenders; the 8s I have known are swift to level the playing field, to stand up for the underdog and to pick at those with too much power. As a 6 I aspire to be like that as well, but I do not feel like I possess the same effortless-seeming power awareness as 8s in terms of just knowing when is the right time to step in. I tend to only act when I feel a "tipping point" has been reached - typically a blatant hypocrisy that no one else has yet to directly address.



> An 8 is pretty interested in exposing TRUTH. A 6 not so much.


I think we both generally are, but 6s are very ruminating and concerned about repercussions - so I think it takes us longer to decide when the time/place/situation is right to expose. I personally find a lot of satisfaction in exposure, but also a large amount of anxiety in waiting to see the fallout, so that makes it less appealing overall. 8s don't really seem to have that hangup.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> You and @drmiller100 don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, and that's fine. That in and of itself displays that people have different ideas of what the truth is. I suppose this is the basis for my confusion concerning the topic. Do you not believe that there are objective truths at all? Do you believe that all truth is subjective? I think your answers to these questions will give me more clarity on where you're at on this subject.


What would an objective truth, be here? I think the answer to that question depends on how it's defined or understood in the first place. I do not deny objectivity; I'm not a solipisist. I simply deny that we can fully observe this objectivity without understanding it through our own subjective bias, first. The idea of objective truth therefore becomes a bit of a non-sequitur since it hinges on the idea that humans are capable of observing objective reality as objective. I deny that we can. Therefore objective truths become nonsensical in the sense that they are never fully objective, then, but simply things we agree on as a collective to be regarded as true. They become facts, if you will. Is that the same as truth, though? Truth is in opposition of that which is false, and falseness implies a fabrication of reality, but I'd argue that we cannot fabricate something we cannot fully perceive in the first place. Hence, non-sequitur.

Does that answer the question? To clarify, it is not a matter of whether truth is objective or subjective, but whether the concept exists at all.

I should also add that personally, I think "truth" to me is closer to "authenticity", in that I always know I represent my own experiences, my values, my beliefs and stand for them. Then I very well and fully realize others have different ways to interpret my experience, but as long they accept that _my_ interpretation of _myself_ is honest and therefore not fabricated, it is the same as truth, to me.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

angelfish said:


> I
> 
> I have heard before that 8s are more protectors and 6s are more defenders; the 8s I have known are swift to level the playing field, to stand up for the underdog and to pick at those with too much power. As a 6 I aspire to be like that as well, but I do not feel like I possess the same effortless-seeming power awareness as 8s in terms of just knowing when is the right time to step in. I tend to only act when I feel a "tipping point" has been reached - typically a blatant hypocrisy that no one else has yet to directly address.
> 
> I think we both generally are, but 6s are very ruminating and concerned about repercussions - so I think it takes us longer to decide when the time/place/situation is right to expose. I personally find a lot of satisfaction in exposure, but also a large amount of anxiety in waiting to see the fallout, so that makes it less appealing overall. 8s don't really seem to have that hangup.


I really appreciate this post. It is hard for me to articulate the 6 POV very well, and I think you did a much better job than I did. 

I completely agree I don't care much about repercussions when I jump into a fray. It has been costly at times in my life. To me, it seems a 6 is indeed a more defensive persona. 

When done a 6 lives in the head area, and they tend to decide things with their brains. I tend to do just DO stuff and let the pieces land where they will.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> . I think there are both objective and subjective truths.
> 
> O.


I believe in objective and subjective truth. Subjective truth is easy. Objective truth is easy. 

I believe two objective truths can coexists simultaneously and contradict each other. 

Is light a particle or a wave? The answer is yes.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> I really appreciate this post. It is hard for me to articulate the 6 POV very well, and I think you did a much better job than I did.
> 
> I completely agree I don't care much about repercussions when I jump into a fray. It has been costly at times in my life. To me, it seems a 6 is indeed a more defensive persona.
> 
> When done a 6 lives in the head area, and they tend to decide things with their brains. I tend to do just DO stuff and let the pieces land where they will.


Thanks, I'm glad it was clarifying! I really do admire 8s in terms of their ballsiness - I've worked with at least three 8s now and I've tried to pick up strategies from them of how to just be confident and self-assured. I stuck up for myself against someone at work yesterday and I still find myself ruminating and analyzing the situation and if I went too far, what the talk is going to be, and so on - mostly fear for my job security. I tend to be pretty low-key and flexible - sometimes to the point of letting people walk on me before I realize it and snap - so when I get openly angry people really get surprised sometimes. I think 8s are much more consistent in terms of asserting their instinctive boundaries. 

Do you mind me asking how certain situations have been costly to you? From the outside it seems like 8s are rarely perturbed by situational fallout, but I assume from an inside perspective it may be a little different.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

angelfish said:


> Thanks, I'm glad it was clarifying! I really do admire 8s in terms of their ballsiness - I've worked with at least three 8s now and I've tried to pick up strategies from them of how to just be confident and self-assured. I stuck up for myself against someone at work yesterday and I still find myself ruminating and analyzing the situation and if I went too far, what the talk is going to be, and so on - mostly fear for my job security. I tend to be pretty low-key and flexible - sometimes to the point of letting people walk on me before I realize it and snap - so when I get openly angry people really get surprised sometimes. I think 8s are much more consistent in terms of asserting their instinctive boundaries.
> 
> Do you mind me asking how certain situations have been costly to you? From the outside it seems like 8s are rarely perturbed by situational fallout, but I assume from an inside perspective it may be a little different.


I worry and ruminate about things sometimes. Mostly it is when I went rude on or around someone who is pretty nice, and I worry about hurt feelings. I'll go back, and apologize or clarify or listen. 

I was on a phone conf call yesterday with 8 other people. A peer was talking over the top of people to be sure to push his point. I was asked about a specific thing by the big boss, and the peer started talking because he disagreed. I talked over HIM, saying "excuse me, I'm talking, and I'm not done yet, and your turn will be later", and I then kept going. There was a snicker on the line, but when done, i do have a reputation for not being as corporate PC. 
I won't be asked to join mgmt at this company, which is a good thing for me and them.


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## Axe (Aug 1, 2014)

angelfish said:


> Thanks, I'm glad it was clarifying! I really do admire 8s in terms of their ballsiness - I've worked with at least three 8s now and I've tried to pick up strategies from them of how to just be confident and self-assured. *I stuck up for myself against someone* at work yesterday and I still find myself ruminating and analyzing the situation and if I went too far, what the talk is going to be, and so on - mostly fear for my job security. I tend to be pretty low-key and flexible - sometimes to the point of letting people walk on me *before I realize it and snap* - so when I get openly angry people really get surprised sometimes. I think 8s are much more consistent in terms of asserting their instinctive boundaries.
> 
> Do you mind me asking how certain situations have been costly to you? From the outside it seems like 8s are rarely perturbed by situational fallout, but I assume from an inside perspective it may be a little different.


I've had problems with people before who seem to delay their anger too long, and throw all kinds of random crap into arguements, and kind of dump their anger, out of proportion to situations.

Telling people to not get angry doesn't work. Telling people to control their behaviour better when angry doesn't work. Telling people to be aware of what they're trying to communicate and to what end doesn't work.

I wonder if you have any ideas.

Half the time when people think I'm angry they're projecting, and seem to think that I'm angry, when they're angry? But I tend to have reasonable high levels of self-control when angry, and so if I try to map other people to what I'm like when angry it doesn't seem to work.

Like kids that you were talking about in an earlier message and smacking and so forth and knowing when to intefere. I don't think you should have to yell at children, or even raise your voice normally. And if they're not listening to you, then they're probably not going to listen to you if you yell either. I kind of think of "directing" rather than commanding kids... (unless in humour)

But you can't just go around to people yelling at kids and tell them not to tell. You can suggest that they shouldn't need to yell. But a lot of parents just lack basic self-control and discipline, and take it out on kids etc. Along with doing things like saying that they'll get something, then not giving it to them for no good reason, then yelling at the kid when they point this out or such.


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## Axe (Aug 1, 2014)

Kipposhi said:


> I wasn't going to say anything, but since you mention it. I don't think Ne has much to do with the core of "truth". The Ne is more about how I perceive the world--I see all the possibilities, I believe none of them. It's the Ti that gives me the framework of reality, but this is the more in the form of "science"--understanding the nature of reality in logical terms.
> 
> It is very different than my inner experience of truth, or truth as a value, which is far deeper and more passionate than my cognitive preferences. In that sense, the truth is just instantly obvious to me. It might be argued that being Ne-dom gives me some sort of instant grasp of "the big picture", but I think it's something more fundamental than this. ESTJ 8s operate the same way, after all. For that matter, ENTP 6s. "Truth" is part of my emotional core, my values, my orientation toward life, as distinct from my cognitive preferences.


From what I understand the generally understood normal truth is about Ni. And so core Ne types shouldn't care too much about truth - IE an ENTP and ENFP won't care about truth that much, and it's reasonably strong and not that valued. Whereas the types that are more unstable about Ni like ESTJ, ESFJ will be a lot less flexible about truth - ie their truth is quite narrow, and in the ESTJ case will be directed towards hard facts, and in the ESFJ case will be directed towards family/community.

Of course truth is a subjective thing filtered through our own biases, experiences, etc. My truth will be different from your truth. There's no objective truth - and an objective truth would be from someone trying to adopt an objective persona for their subjective truth.


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## Axe (Aug 1, 2014)

I'd like to put in with this truth subject, the 468 tritype is called the truth teller. I think it has something to do with 4s having emotional truth / authenticity. I don't know where the 6/8 place. But I think 6 is about discrepencies and noticing things out of place, and 8s is about honesty.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Ti and Te have different truths. As a Ti user I'm qualified to judge truth, and I'm qualified to declare something truth even if experts and books disagree with me. 

Ti/Te has a much bigger definition of what Truth is than Ne and Ni.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Axe said:


> I've had problems with people before who seem to delay their anger too long, and throw all kinds of random crap into arguements, and kind of dump their anger, out of proportion to situations.
> 
> Telling people to not get angry doesn't work. Telling people to control their behaviour better when angry doesn't work. Telling people to be aware of what they're trying to communicate and to what end doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm not really sure I completely understand what you're asking. Please let me know if I don't sufficiently address it. 

Regarding delayed anger and "anger dump" - the best thing I can think of is to ask the person to just be up front with you when they're frustrated with you, so they don't let it build. And when they do dump, to genuinely seriously consider whether what they're saying is reasonable or not, and to clarify what you think is reasonable is and isn't. I don't think "telling" most people anything is going to yield good results - no one really likes being told what to do, and 6s in particular don't respond well to that at all. 

In terms of a parent yelling unfairly at a child... and how to approach... I think sometimes just interrupting them is enough. Coming over and saying something like, "Hi, is there anything I can do to help you?". They might not like it very much, but it will more than likely stop the onslaught. That's a band-aid solution, though, of course. It doesn't address the longterm. But I'm not sure either how to fix that, short of going into education or public health and trying to teach people how to be better parents.


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## Axe (Aug 1, 2014)

drmiller100 said:


> Ti and Te have different truths. As a Ti user I'm qualified to judge truth, and I'm qualified to declare something truth even if experts and books disagree with me.
> 
> Ti/Te has a much bigger definition of what Truth is than Ne and Ni.


Truth without context is just logical correctness though, and meaningless outside the scope of the sentences constructed of such.


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## Axe (Aug 1, 2014)

angelfish said:


> Sorry, I'm not really sure I completely understand what you're asking. Please let me know if I don't sufficiently address it.
> 
> Regarding delayed anger and "anger dump" - the best thing I can think of is to ask the person to just be up front with you when they're frustrated with you, so they don't let it build. And when they do dump, to genuinely seriously consider whether what they're saying is reasonable or not, and to clarify what you think is reasonable is and isn't. I don't think "telling" most people anything is going to yield good results - no one really likes being told what to do, and 6s in particular don't respond well to that at all.
> 
> In terms of a parent yelling unfairly at a child... and how to approach... I think sometimes just interrupting them is enough. Coming over and saying something like, "Hi, is there anything I can do to help you?". They might not like it very much, but it will more than likely stop the onslaught. That's a band-aid solution, though, of course. It doesn't address the longterm. But I'm not sure either how to fix that, short of going into education or public health and trying to teach people how to be better parents.


Ahh, I'm not thinking about me, but in general. Assertiveness isn't just something you decide one day, and make happen, it's compromised of every action, every step, every nuance.

Not letting things build can be good, but if the core things that lead the anger to surface don't change then the anger can keep surfacing again and again, and expressing such doesn't change the situation.

Coming over and saying something can be seen as undermining their authority. Like they're not capable.

There's probably no good solution, it's just one of those things that bugs me sometimes


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Axe said:


> From what I understand the generally understood normal truth is about Ni. And so core Ne types shouldn't care too much about truth - IE an ENTP and ENFP won't care about truth that much, and it's reasonably strong and not that valued. Whereas the types that are more unstable about Ni like ESTJ, ESFJ will be a lot less flexible about truth - ie their truth is quite narrow, and in the ESTJ case will be directed towards hard facts, and in the ESFJ case will be directed towards family/community


The functions are our cognitive filter--how we take in and categorize information; they are mostly independent of deeper emotional sentiments and values. As to Ni, it wants to find connections and meanings behind the data. This could be interpreted as "truth" as much as Ti wanting to find the universal logical principle behind things, but what I'm talking about is far deeper and not related to any of my functions.


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## .17485 (Jan 12, 2011)

8s are more verbally denigrating and have a sadistic personality style. Compare Donald Trump to any 6 candidate in recent memory. 

The best way to see the difference is to look at real life 8s and 6s in confrontation with each other and see the difference, not just in their behavior but in their actual presence. 

1) Miesha Tate is a 6 and rhonda rousey is an 8:






the difference is clear. rousey wants to rip tate's head off. tate wants to provoke rhonda into ripping her head off. you can tell that rhonda is a tough girl. she's not there to have fun and kid around. she has a tough, mean energy. miesha doesn't seem all that tough. she seems more like a sarcastic 6. 

here's another clip of Rhonda and miesha. rhonda just casually says mean things like calling her brainless. tate on the other hand will just taunt rhonda, but doesn't say anything that hits below the belt. Tate isn't really a bully and Rhonda is. Rhonda has a chip on her shoulder and comes across like she's pissed off. Tate doesn't. 






2) Charlotte is an 8 and michael is a 6.






Charlotte is a mean, snarling, confrontational 8 who is completely insensitive. michael is the more reasonable 6, rising above Charlotte's explosive rages. 

3) hodge is an 8 and pumpkin is a 6:






its the same as with rhonda and tate. hodge is a mean, in your face, attacking 8 and pumpkin is a snarky 6. hodge hits below the belt and gets nasty. pumpkin veers away from saying anything nasty and instead tries to defend herself. hodge always has a chip on her shoulder and comes across like she's pissed off. her energy is more confrontational and she casually engages in the verbal denigration of anybody that happens to get in her way. just the opposite with pumpkin. she will get sarcastic but isn't degrading. hodge will degrade.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Tega1_
I think Ronda is a 3 with an 8 fix. She is very conscious of showcasing her aggression and vengefulness to be dramatic and get camera attention. When she's not putting on her aggressive act there's something pleasing about her. She is able to wear the face she needs in the moment. It's part of who she is, but she knows when to play it up.

She's extraordinarily talented, but she knows how to play up her aggressive image to make the most of it, too.


Donald Trump is an 8w7. He blurts out whatever he thinks and looks ridiculous on camera. Some 8s are conscious of how they look and vain, so I'm not making a blanket statement that 8s can't figure out how to look good, but Ronda is just way too aware of it. Every pose is camera-ready. The tone of her voice. The books she writes about herself. She is selling herself as a product.


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## Rala (Apr 1, 2015)

Animal said:


> @_Tega1_
> I think Ronda is a 3 with an 8 fix. She is very conscious of showcasing her aggression and vengefulness to be dramatic and get camera attention. When she's not putting on her aggressive act there's something pleasing about her. She is able to wear the face she needs in the moment. It's part of who she is, but she knows when to play it up.
> 
> She's extraordinarily talented, but she knows how to play up her aggressive image to make the most of it, too.
> ...


I like this girl a lot for some reason (Ronda). I really don't know much about her, but I remember reading this article that says she's a 4w3 ( Ronda Rousey Personality Type - Enneagram Pop! ). I googled to see if I could find anything about her Enneagram type after watching one interview of her where she said she used to be very self-conscious, hate her body and have a shitty self-esteem as a teenager. That'd explain why I liked her from the very first time I watched, but I'm just being subjective again.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Rala said:


> I like this girl a lot for some reason (Ronda). I really don't know much about her, but I remember reading this article that says she's a 4w3 ( Ronda Rousey Personality Type - Enneagram Pop! ). I googled to see if I could find anything about her Enneagram time after watching one interview of her where she said she used to be very self-conscious, hate her body and have a shitty self-esteem as a teenager. That'd explain why I liked her from the very first time I watched, but I'm just being subjective again.


I relate to her and like her too but I think she's a 3, probably with a 4 wing. P I wish she were a 4. Why can't 4s be that cool?


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## rockinlibrarian (Jul 30, 2014)

Wow, non-9s. You sure can argue. (I don't leave the 9 forum that often). 

I just popped into this thread because my husband is a very 8ish cp6. If you look at surface descriptions and don't know him all that well you'd definitely think he's an 8, but his bravado is definitely more defensive than offensive. He's hypervigilant, scoping out our location for security weaknesses and escape routes, always trying to be PREPARED FOR ANYTHING. I get the feeling 8s don't care so much about being prepared because they don't know why they'd need to be anything other than they are.

I also think how they are when they're relaxed is a good clue. Get an 8 drunk and they're still going to be aggressive, maybe even more so. My 6 husband gets drunk and suddenly this supposed tough guy turns into a sappy I-love-you-guys softy. He lets his guard down, basically. You don't see that with an 8 because with an 8 it isn't a guard, it's a much deeper personality trait.


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## Le9acyMuse (Mar 12, 2010)

Counter-phobic 6s look like who now...? 8s? They really don't. Typically if I have a difficult time interpreting someone's Enneagram fears, it's because I need to go back to my notes. Sometimes 4s and 7s can appear alike because they have a glimmer of haughtiness in common. Watch how they compensate for their senses of inadequacy and telling them apart is simpler.

I can't prove that my brother is a CP 6w5 anymore than anyone can prove that they are what they say they are, but he struggles with knowing himself well, such as his capabilities. It makes him push himself to prove something. He uses respectability to compensate for feeling unclear about himself. If someone thinks that's like a 4, being unclear about oneself is different from feeling defective. I've never confused him for being an 8. There's a defense he throws up when he feels cornered, and his reaction to others threatening his comfort is pretty straightforward; he'll be visibly untrusting, wary and prone to altercation when, not if, he feels justified to do so.

Our dad is an 8 who loves not seeming very bothered about things others might struggle with. He can use this to make you feel like you're overreacting, even if he's being childish. He does this because it's a way of simulating control when he's stricken with the reality that he doesn't have it as together as he'd prefer. Admitting that would be yielding to weakness which would further damage his identity, so he often acts as if he knows himself pretty well. Neither my brother nor I are like this. If I sense a problem, I'm delving within to understand it, and apply it if it can't be repaired. If my brother senses a problem he'll endeavor to affirm he's normal to feel in control.

Overall, any 6 is much too distracted by inner conflict to come off like an 8 to me. The conflict is so impeding that anything that draws their attention away from stabilizing it makes them more nervous. They wouldn't advertently throw themselves into something unnecessary unless something else is wrong.

@_Tega1_ You're dead on with everyone else, but I gotta say Miesha and Pumpkin are 7s for the reasons I mentioned in the last paragraph. They're trying to prove themselves too outwardly. 6s are normally somewhat withdrawn to retain info within themselves to figure themselves out. Like 5s. 7s are the most intense of the heads in using control to hide a sense of inadequacy.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

I think CP6's are aggressive as a reaction to their insecurities- they feel as though they have something to prove. 8's, on the other hand, are more comfortable about who they are and know that they're strong.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

FakeLefty said:


> I think CP6's are aggressive as a reaction to their insecurities- they feel as though they have something to prove. 8's, on the other hand, are more comfortable about who they are and know that they're strong.


I think we have different fears, and behave differently because of that. 

I've met plenty of 6's who are VERY comforrtable with who they are and are very strong.


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