# Wait a sec, WHAT is Fi?



## s2theizay (Nov 12, 2014)

So I was just looking over some results from a functional stacking test and I noticed this wording for Fi: "your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings / ideals / sentiment." 

What does this mean? Are these thoughts and ideas sacred because they are _yours_? Or are they more trustworthy because they are immune to negative outside influences?

This was confusing to me (I only scored 35% on Fi btw) because the questions on most tests often ask if you spend time thinking about right and wrong, good and bad, blah blah blah; but is that truly an indicator of Fi? I think about these things frequently but it is always in a general, global way that is pretty impersonal. The way I feel about something isn't particularly important to me.

I'd like to get some other perspectives because I sometimes run into issues with strong Fi users that I just don't comprehend. We never really clash, but their thought process can seem foreign and I don't always have the knowledge to bridge gaps in our communication.


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

You should explain Ti to me.
I am just speaking as a S type. Maybe NFs are different on this.



s2theizay said:


> Fi: "your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings / ideals / sentiment."


These words are rather abstract to me, but I sort of get it because I use Fi. It's probably harder for you to get if you don't use Fi.



> What does this mean? Are these thoughts and ideas sacred because they are yours? Or are they more trustworthy because they are immune to negative outside influences?


They are "sacred" or important to _you_ because they are yours. I am not sure if I get your second question, but we are certainly not immune to negative outside influences.



> if you spend time thinking about right and wrong, good and bad, blah blah blah; but is that truly an indicator of Fi?


I do think about right and wrong, good and bad quite a lot, but _most_ of them are somehow related back to the self. It can be self-evaluation, introspection: Am I good or bad, did I do the right thing or the wrong thing? How do I feel about what just happened in front of me? You access these things as an individual. Every time you make a value judgement on things, your brain kind of "remember" it, like a tiny code written on it, maybe subconsciously. Then you build up a personal value system over time. But I don't know, because I don't always feel this way when I react to things, but the feelings feel rather natural and raw to me. 

Another thing is Fi would try to act in accordance to his/her personal value. If failed, he/she feels bad/guilty/shame.



> I think about these things frequently but it is always in a general, global way that is pretty impersonal. The way I feel about something isn't particularly important to me.


That's a difference, it's always, if not all the time, personal for Fi-types (FPs). Fi-users tend to care less about things that are impersonal, that are unimportant to them, or even don't care, and they are less incline to think about world-justice type of good and bad in a general and global way. Oh, maybe they do, but there are always something personal, or personal interpretation. Or they may appear much more interested if they can relate to the issue in a personal way/ through personal experience.

I imagine a Ti-dom would think about good and bad and all that in an intellectual way. FPs would be a "introverted-feeling type" of thinking--not really sure what that means though.

Not that FPs don't or can't make intellectual analysis, but the decisions have to do with whether or not they have personal interest in doing so, whether or not they personally value the issue. I also feel like, Fi-types prefer to get something personally meaningful out of analysis about whatever if they happen to do the thinking. That's why they tend to be less interested in analyzing for the sake of analyzing.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Consider Fi as a process that dips into a database full of personal values, to ascertain whether something is right or wrong, authentic or not. Even though Fi is considered a rational function by Jung, it's not logic oriented.

For some reason, INTPs often confuse Si-Fe for Fi.


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## Slagasauras (Jun 26, 2013)

"I know that this way of life is bad and this one is good. Don't try to argue with me on it, I've reached my conclusion, thank you! Let me take some time to figure out this life altering decision. I don't want to hurt your feelings, please, I was just being honest. I know this person is bad, and this person is good. What? I just -know-. Don't ask why, that's so stupid. How can that not piss you off?" 
Just some stuff that came to mind!


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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

Fi directs the attention inwards towards one's own emotions, and like Ti, it's about precision, clarity and nuance: _How do I feel? Why do I feel that way? Why did that action cause those feelings to well up inside me?_ It's like taking a scalpel to your own emotions and emotionally-laden values.

Fi is also about being genuine and authentic. For Fi-users, being true to one's own values, emotions and sense of self is critically important. I have trouble going along with something, even to preserve harmony, if it means not being myself. It just feels wrong.

*EDIT:* Existentialism and existentialist crises love Fi, or possibly the other way around. Some stereotypical Fi-related questions: _Who am I deep down? What is my purpose? What is my life path?_


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Take everything presented below, and then add the process of introversion to it then that'll give you the idea of what Fi is:

Bold= key points
Underline= key terms



> *Feeling is primarily a process that takes place between the ego (q.v.) and a given content, a process, moreover, that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection (“like”or “dislike”).* The process can also appear isolated, as it were, in the form of a “mood,”regardless if r the momentary contents of consciousness or momentary sensations.





> *Feeling, therefore, is an entirely subjective process, which may be in every respect independent of external stimuli, though it allies itself with every sensation*. 48 Even an “indifferent”sensation possesses a feeling-tone, namely that of indifference, which again expresses some sort of valuation. *Hence feeling is a kind of judgment, differing from intellectual judgment in that its aim is not to establish conceptual relations but to set up a subjective criterion of acceptance or rejection*. Valuation by feeling extends to every content of consciousness, of whatever kind it may be. When the intensity of feeling increases, it turns into an affect (q.v.), i.e., a feeling-state accompanied by marked physical innervations. Feeling is distinguished from affect by the fact that it produces no perceptible physical innervations, i.e., neither more nor less than an ordinary thinking process.





> The conscious psyche is an apparatus for adaptation and orientation, and consists of a number of different psychic functions. Among these we can distinguish four basic ones: sensation, thinking, feeling, intuition. Under sensation I include all perceptions by means of the sense organs; by thinking I mean the function of intellectual cognition and the forming of logical conclusions; *feeling is a function of subjective valuation*; intuition I take as perception by way of the unconscious, or perception of unconscious contents.





> For complete orientation all four functions should contribute equally: thinking should facilitate cognition and judgment, *feeling should tell us how and to what extent a thing is important or unimportant for us*, sensation should convey concrete reality to us through seeing, hearing, tasting, etc., and intuition should enable us to divine the hidden possibilities in the background, since these too belong to the complete picture of a given situation.





> Thus there are many people who restrict themselves to the simple perception of concrete reality, without thinking about it or taking feeling values into account. They bother just as little about the possibilities hidden in a situation. I describe such people as sensation types. Others are exclusively oriented by what they think, and simply cannot adapt to a situation which they are unable to understand intellectually. I call such people thinking types. *Others, again, are guided in everything entirely by feeling. They merely ask themselves whether a thing is pleasant or unpleasant, and orient themselves by their feeling impressions. These are the feeling types.* Finally, the intuitives concern themselves neither with ideas nor with feeling reactions, nor yet with the reality of things, but surrender themselves wholly to the lure of possibilities, and abandon every situation in which no further possibilities can be scented.





> Sensation establishes what is actually present, thinking enables us to recognize its meaning, *feeling tells us its value*, and intuition points to possibilities as to whence it came and whither it is going in a given situation.


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## s2theizay (Nov 12, 2014)

Duo said:


> For some reason, INTPs often confuse Si-Fe for Fi.


Or, those rare occasions when Ti and Fe actually back each other up instead of opposing each other. Then we're like, 'hey, I just did something that _felt_ right. SEE?!? I haz Fi.":kitteh:


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## s2theizay (Nov 12, 2014)

uncertain said:


> You should explain Ti to me.
> I am just speaking as a S type. Maybe NFs are different on this.
> 
> These words are rather abstract to me, but I sort of get it because I use Fi. It's probably harder for you to get if you don't use Fi.
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to type all this out! This, along with the other posts really help clear things up for me.

As far as that second question goes, I just meant that your values were less likely to be "corrupted" by someone else's. You wouldn't readily accept what someone else says is right because you already know, or at least have an idea of what is right to you. It sort of sounds like how I don't allow others to guide my thought process. I'm not open to input from others until I've thought about a matter thoroughly and understand it. Then I'll listen for other viewpoints that may possibly refine what I now know. And even that doesn't mean I'll incorporate this into my personal understanding of something. (Do tell me if I'm waaaayy off.)


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## AshtangiBear (Dec 27, 2014)

As an ENTJ, Fi is the most evil thing to ever happen to mankind. It is my inferior function and when it hits, it hits hard in negative way.


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## Slagasauras (Jun 26, 2013)

I find it humorous that people are freaking out over Fi. I'm finally developing Te and love it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tiredsighs (Aug 31, 2011)

Shimmerleaf said:


> Fi directs the attention inwards towards one's own emotions, and like Ti, it's about precision, clarity and nuance: *How do I feel? Why do I feel that way? Why did that action cause those feelings to well up inside me? It's like taking a scalpel to your own emotions and emotionally-laden values.*
> 
> Fi is also about being genuine and authentic. For Fi-users, being true to one's own values, emotions and sense of self is critically important.* I have trouble going along with something, even to preserve harmony, if it means not being myself. It just feels wrong.*





Slagathor said:


> "*I know that this way of life is bad and this one is good. Don't try to argue with me on it, I've reached my conclusion, thank you!* Let me take some time to figure out this life altering decision. *I don't want to hurt your feelings, please, I was just being honest.* I know this person is bad, and this person is good. What? I just -know-. Don't ask why, that's so stupid. *How can that not piss you off?*"
> Just some stuff that came to mind!


The bold is ESPECIALLY how I experience Fi.


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## Verity3 (Nov 15, 2014)

s2theizay said:


> As far as that second question goes, I just meant that your values were less likely to be "corrupted" by someone else's. You wouldn't readily accept what someone else says is right because you already know, or at least have an idea of what is right to you. It sort of sounds like how I don't allow others to guide my thought process. I'm not open to input from others until I've thought about a matter thoroughly and understand it. Then I'll listen for other viewpoints that may possibly refine what I now know. And even that doesn't mean I'll incorporate this into my personal understanding of something. (Do tell me if I'm waaaayy off.)


That's it exactly! (At least, that's how I experience it.) Less likely to be influenced, yes. Immune to corruption, nope nope nope.


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## AdroElectro (Oct 28, 2014)

s2theizay said:


> So I was just looking over some results from a functional stacking test and I noticed this wording for Fi: "your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings / ideals / sentiment."
> 
> What does this mean? Are these thoughts and ideas sacred because they are _yours_? Or are they more trustworthy because they are immune to negative outside influences?
> 
> ...


I like Michael Pierce's description of Feeling as a rational function. It is a function that makes value judgements. A is good, B is bad, therefore we should do A. Extraverted feeling sees value judgements externally, as objects outside of oneself. Which is pretty much how you explained it - you see them in a general, global way that is pretty impersonal.

Introverted feeling then is the complete opposite. It is focused and individualistic, and extremely personal. I decide what I think is good, and what I think is bad. It is something I spend a lot of time thinking about it, and it is completely subjective. This is where being authentic/being true to oneself/following your heart comes into play. If I decide that A is good, and B is bad, I will do A. I don't care if the rest of the world believes that A is bad and B is good, and that they think I should do B. For me to do B wouldn't make any sense. Just like if you make up your mind that something is illogical, you would be extremely averse to doing it just because the rest of the world tells you that it is logical.

To put it in a metaphorical term, I see introverted feeling as an inner city of value judgements that is constantly growing. As time goes on and I take in new information, new buildings are constantly being added. And sometimes older buildings become outdated and will need to be renovated, or even completely demolished.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Slagathor said:


> "I know that this way of life is bad and this one is good. Don't try to argue with me on it, I've reached my conclusion, thank you! Let me take some time to figure out this life altering decision. I don't want to hurt your feelings, please, I was just being honest. I know this person is bad, and this person is good. What? I just -know-. Don't ask why, that's so stupid. How can that not piss you off?"
> Just some stuff that came to mind!


This sounds an awful lot like the Fi descriptions from Funky MBTI in Fiction.


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## Slagasauras (Jun 26, 2013)

Ninjaws said:


> This sounds an awful lot like the Fi descriptions from Funky MBTI in Fiction.


Haha, glad you spotted it (and someone reads them too), I couldn't think of how to describe it easily, so I tried paraphrasing from the Fi page of what I remembered O:.


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

s2theizay said:


> It sort of sounds like how I don't allow others to guide my thought process. I'm not open to input from others until I've thought about a matter thoroughly and understand it. Then I'll listen for other viewpoints that may possibly refine what I now know. And even that doesn't mean I'll incorporate this into my personal understanding of something. (Do tell me if I'm waaaayy off.)


Yeah that's a lot like how I deal with my value.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Shimmerleaf said:


> Fi directs the attention inwards towards one's own emotions, and like Ti, it's about precision, clarity and nuance: _How do I feel? Why do I feel that way? Why did that action cause those feelings to well up inside me?_ It's like taking a scalpel to your own emotions and emotionally-laden values.
> 
> Fi is also about being genuine and authentic. For Fi-users, being true to one's own values, emotions and sense of self is critically important. I have trouble going along with something, even to preserve harmony, if it means not being myself. It just feels wrong.
> 
> *EDIT:* Existentialism and existentialist crises love Fi, or possibly the other way around. Some stereotypical Fi-related questions: _Who am I deep down? What is my purpose? What is my life path?_


Apparently I'm an Fi user...




Slagathor said:


> "I know that this way of life is bad and this one is good. Don't try to argue with me on it, I've reached my conclusion, thank you! Let me take some time to figure out this life altering decision. I don't want to hurt your feelings, please, I was just being honest. I know this person is bad, and this person is good. What? I just -know-. Don't ask why, that's so stupid. How can that not piss you off?"
> Just some stuff that came to mind!


...or not. And yes, it does sound a lot like Funky MBTI Fiction.


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## Slagasauras (Jun 26, 2013)

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> Apparently I'm an Fi user...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Walloping Wai-zacks Batman! You changed to ISFJ? Wow, must be tricky to type!

It does, yes, because like I said earlier, I couldn't figure out how to describe it easily besides: "acting on how I feel and deciding what's best based on how I feel" so I just listed some stuff from their Fi page O:.


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## Glory (Sep 28, 2013)

If you believe you have a 'better developed' use of a function you simply don't know *what* you're talking and you're psychologically (or spiritually, if you prefer) imbalanced. At some point you need to quit using crutches to stabilise your psyche and grow up.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Slagathor said:


> Walloping Wai-zacks Batman! You changed to ISFJ? Wow, must be tricky to type!


Yes. Yes I am. That or very confused and good at convincing others in my confusion.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Imo Fi users don't get enough credit while Fe users generally gets credit for simply agreeing with the rest. 

Want an example?

Fi = Batman, Batman = scapegoat for Gotham city, he does what he thinks is right, whether people of Gotham deems him as a vigilante criminal or not, he doesn't care. Throw shit at his face, he still saves you, why? Coz he is not influenced by your opinions.

Fe = The average female, often indecisive as the amount of opinions differ, so does she. But generally agreeable and likable coz doesn't go against the majority and values harmony, doesn't like conflict.


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Inferior Fi is like a little demon on your shoulder constantly telling you that people don't like you


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## s2theizay (Nov 12, 2014)

ENTJudgement said:


> Imo *Fi users don't get enough credit* while Fe users generally gets credit for simply agreeing with the rest.


I agree with this. I've always associated Fi with being noble and empathetic. Naturally, this isn't always the case just as Ti isn't always correct. Still, if the person isn't nuts or immature they probably won't display those negative qualities often.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

s2theizay said:


> So I was just looking over some results from a functional stacking test and I noticed this wording for Fi: "your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings / ideals / sentiment."
> 
> What does this mean? Are these thoughts and ideas sacred because they are _yours_? Or are they more trustworthy because they are immune to negative outside influences?
> 
> ...


From this you sound very far from Fi.

Fi trusts its own opinions about values and morals above everyone else's. It's not objective. It's an introverted function.

Fe would approach a question of values from an external perspective--what does my society value, what does my religion value, what does my workplace value, what do my friends value, what do my parents value, blah blah blah.


You can think of Ti and Fi as similar attitudes and Fe and Te as similar attitudes.

Je is focused on the outcome or result. Ji is focused on the process that leads to said result--care less about how it affects people and more about it making sense internally.

You can see how they would conflict with one another.


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## s2theizay (Nov 12, 2014)

emberfly said:


> From this you sound very far from Fi.
> 
> Fi trusts its own opinions about values and morals above everyone else's. It's not objective. It's an introverted function.
> 
> Fe would approach a question of values from an external perspective--what does my society value, what does my religion value, what does my workplace value, what do my friends value, what do my parents value, blah blah blah.


Oh, definitely not! I just didn't realize how little I understood it. This thread helps take my measly 35% score down to zero.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Peter said:


> Value based, yes. Very much so. But not so people oriented. Not at all.
> 
> Fi is focused inward, so it's all about relating to internal values. I believe this is right and that is wrong, regardless of what society believes. (so totally not people oriented.)


I mean people oriented as opposed to goal oriented. Feeling being focused on the human element and people related aspects of decision making. Empathy, sympathy, compassion, consideration, well being, appropriateness and how people will be affected.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Don't mean to sound rude, but I think sometimes being an Fi-dom gives people an excuse to be irrational


That's likely due to projection. Dominant Feeling is usually rational, inferior Feeling is often irrational.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Grandeur said:


> Inferior Fi is like a little demon on your shoulder constantly telling you that people don't like you


awwh hugs*


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Fi can't be swayed directly.
Since Fi is linked to what is deemed as likeable and not likeable, 
*Fi is aligned with some inner image of "goodness".
*
Whatever this goodness is, Fi if it has the influence will align everything else up to it.
This is why ISFPs struggle with expressing it, cause the realm of manifestation has to happen in Se or Te.
INFPs can use Ne and Te. Ne being intuitive and big picture their vision of goodness can be projected into a far off
idealized future. ISFPs don't have that ability and need to find ways to manifest their vision of good in
some "loving" action in the here and now.
ISFPs can as everyone else get addicted to pain. When you associations are as screwed up as that
what usually is concidered bad becomes good. Fe can only achieve this result in cultures gone wrong.
It is not to be strived for of course to warp your perception of good and bad in this way.
When it happens with Fe it is symptomatic of a mass psychosis. With Fi it is only the individual who has lost their way.
Fi is an island onto itself emotionally. It is ready to stand alone against the world if the world aligns against what is percived as good. Fe tries to find likeminded, Fi soldiers on alone determined to find a way to preserve the inner image of goodness. The darker the world outside seems the more resolved Fi becomes to shelther what is percieved as the light.
Dom Fi is in the absurd position that they see the inner light clearly, and see the outside world pretty clearly, yet trough their inferior thinking lack any clear way to apply the light to the outside world. It is a constant frustration of knowing what is right, but not being able to make what is right actually work.

There is so much that can be said for Fi, but I think this will do for now.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

heartofpompeii said:


> This. Man, I go through this at work all the time. My boss is an ESFJ and she's very conservative whereas I'm very liberal. And she always tries to make me feel bad about my convictions? I rarely ever bring them up but when she forces me to talk about them she always tries to change my mind about them. Like dude you aren't gonna change my mind...I feel crappy that I'm pissing you off because I'd really like to keep this job and you're a decent human being, but I'm not gonna "blend" just to try and please you.
> 
> If I care about someone enough I'll sometimes feel bad that I'm causing them distress {depending on the topic of conversation} but that will never make me change my mind on certain subjects.


Ugh yes replace "your boss" with "my mother" and I have the exact same thing! I know we disagree on a lot of things, but I value our relationship and so would rather just not discuss those problematic topics. But she CANNOT LET IT GO. It's worst around election time - she'll use any kind of news story or ad or comment as a launching pad to jump into hours of preaching, because apparently she just can't handle the fact that her children don't share her political values (i.e. we are objectively wrong). My ISFP father is closer to her, politically speaking, but even he gets annoyed because he knows how useless it all is. Funny thing is, when you tell her to stop preaching, she has no idea that she's even doing it, and will tell you point blank that she's not, she's "just saying".... 



Peter said:


> Value based, yes. Very much so. But not so people oriented. Not at all.
> 
> Fi is focused inward, so it's all about relating to internal values. I believe this is right and that is wrong, regardless of what society believes. (so totally not people oriented.)


Might depend on where it sits in the stacking? I don't especially like society, or even that many people when it comes down to it, but I am definitely people-oriented all the same. Like, when my Ti-user partner and I talk about where we want to live in the future. My main criteria are culture-based - what are the people like? can I adopt their customs? do I feel comfortable around them? Whereas his are centred around what he wants to get out of a place: weather, cost of living, possibility to do his hobbies. He doesn't care at all about the culture, and he cares about the people only as far as each individual impacts him personally. Conversely, I'll put up with shit weather and a higher cost of living if I'm surrounded by good people and a culture I like.


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

Grandeur said:


> Inferior Fi is like a little demon on your shoulder constantly telling you that people don't like you


Dominant Fi is like a lake of lava in your chest whose temperature is ever changing but never low.

It just doesn't go away.

By the way, I find your avatar very agreeable. :happy:


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## Acadia (Mar 20, 2014)

ElliCat said:


> Ugh yes replace "your boss" with "my mother" and I have the exact same thing! I know we disagree on a lot of things, but I value our relationship and so would rather just not discuss those problematic topics. But she CANNOT LET IT GO. It's worst around election time - she'll use any kind of news story or ad or comment as a launching pad to jump into hours of preaching, because apparently she just can't handle the fact that her children don't share her political values (i.e. we are objectively wrong). My ISFP father is closer to her, politically speaking, but even he gets annoyed because he knows how useless it all is. Funny thing is, when you tell her to stop preaching, she has no idea that she's even doing it, and will tell you point blank that she's not, she's "just saying"....


It sounds like my boss and your mom would be besties. My boss pulls that too. and oh my god it seems like every single conversation ends up in criticism of my politics like I get that sometimes she's just kidding but it makes me so tired, haha. My boss also ties her religion into the political debate which just makes everything way worse. I don't know how to handle it, and it seems like everything I say manages to offend her in some way or another. It's exhausting.


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## Acadia (Mar 20, 2014)

//messed up my post oops//


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

heartofpompeii said:


> It sounds like my boss and your mom would be besties. My boss pulls that too. and oh my god it seems like every single conversation ends up in criticism of my politics like I get that sometimes she's just kidding but it makes me so tired, haha. My boss also ties her religion into the political debate which just makes everything way worse. I don't know how to handle it, and it seems like everything I say manages to offend her in some way or another. It's exhausting.


I don't even express my opinions anymore. Only if it's someone really close to me and even then it's rare. People just brushed it off, so I stopped giving a damn.

OT: Don't see my profile pic. You'll get emotional.


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Luke the Turner said:


> By the way, I find your avatar very agreeable. :happy:


I agree with that assessment


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

nichya said:


> awwh hugs*


Thanks! It's funny because I know how irrational it is... _"That colleague didn't say hi to me? Why don't they like me?" _ 
I think it's compounded by being a type 3, and tends to be much worse when I'm feeling stressed


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Neverontime said:


> I mean people oriented as opposed to goal oriented. Feeling being focused on the human element and people related aspects of decision making. Empathy, sympathy, compassion, consideration, well being, appropriateness and how people will be affected.


You´re interested in what people are like, interested in the human element, etc. That whole list of empathy, sympathy,,.... to how people will be affected,... that's all value based.... I.E. Fi. But you´re not interested in the people themselves. (which is what I understand when using the term people oriented.) Fe is people oriented. People high on Fe really need people, physically, around them. Even INFJ's need people,.. Just not in such large quantities as ENFJ's for example.

INFP's just need people to bounce of their ideas and to gain new ideas from. INFP's care about the wellbeing of people in general. But throw all your problems at an INFP and they'll take cover. It's just way too much for them. Or if they can relate, they'll use it for their own benefit (i.e. feed their Fi - Ne Loop.)


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

ElliCat said:


> Might depend on where it sits in the stacking? I don't especially like society, or even that many people when it comes down to it, but I am definitely people-oriented all the same. Like, when my Ti-user partner and I talk about where we want to live in the future. My main criteria are culture-based - what are the people like? can I adopt their customs? do I feel comfortable around them? Whereas his are centred around what he wants to get out of a place: weather, cost of living, possibility to do his hobbies. He doesn't care at all about the culture, and he cares about the people only as far as each individual impacts him personally. Conversely, I'll put up with shit weather and a higher cost of living if I'm surrounded by good people and a culture I like.


Culture basically is set of values. And it's all about checking if their views and norms fit yours. In fact everything you wrote in that post is about how everythng effects you.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Grandeur said:


> Thanks! It's funny because I know how irrational it is... _"That colleague didn't say hi to me? Why don't they like me?" _
> I think it's compounded by being a type 3, and tends to be much worse when I'm feeling stressed


" I think lots of negative thoughts, put myself down, and feel that others dislike and reject me. My self-esteem about my abilities gets lower and lower.” Note the illogical progression of his thoughts. “I think I’m pretty confident about my abilities as a trainer,” said an ENTJ. “But when I’ve worked very hard preparing for a training session and am especially tired out, I am plagued with the thought that the trainees don’t like me, that they like my colleagues better, especially if the colleague I’m teaching with is a Feeling type." Socionics - the16types.info - MBTI: Form of the Inferior Function 

Thanks to @AshtangiBear I have been reading this, it defines me to a T, or Te I must say. I am stunned how accurate the word -competence / incompetence - comes up. It is so _uncharacteristic of me_ but I -do- blame people for not being competent when I am hurt -_-' and I don't have much tolerance for obviously bound to fail ideas and how people run in circles chasing their own tail and I need to put an end to it because I just think their idea lacks potential.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

AshtangiBear said:


> Yes, I do. As I said, it is really only used by myself for negative reasons. No idea how to handle Fi.
> 
> It is my inferior function, and like many ExTJs we hate it.
> 
> Socionics - the16types.info - MBTI: Form of the Inferior Function


Interesting though, I think my inferior Te has been to my advantage in many cases but personal ones, obviously it sucks when I lash out at people. I think it tells about how ridiculous the society is, maybe they just want a Te show, whether good or bad v.V


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

@nichya

That's great, can relate to it so well - especially being hypersensitive to inner states during times of stress. I can think of a number of examples where I've become paranoid over the smallest cues, which builds up and broods over in my mind. I'm quite good at keeping it together while burning up inside, torturing myself. Often when this hypersensitivity happens something will eventually happen, or a flash of logical reason will occur to disprove all my negative thoughts - _the colleague i'm perceiving animosity from will come over and invite me out for lunch, explaining that they're really stressed about something else at work_. The paranoia then rushes away in an instant, and I realise how irrational and egocentric I was being.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

@Grandeur

Indeed I -try- to not lash out at people and always find myself resisting the temptation and trying to see things objectively but when it happens, it is after a period of this so it is literally a volcano erupting, although luckily this is something that happens quite rare. Still makes sense to just not be driven by it and try to stay objective/rational (ha!). It just takes a lot to push me there but I don't back off. To be honest, I don't think I ever lashed out to a person out of no reason, they were even pretty delayed but I want to leave things with grace, then I just hate it when I lash out and point every little thing wrong with peoples' lives and their lack of morality. It is just not making things better and makes me look like a crazy person when I am in right. Though, some people years later admit that I had a point. It is like counselling in crash mode. I misuse my empathy and everything just connects in my mind and makes me super angry and feel used or being treated unfair etc etc.


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## AshtangiBear (Dec 27, 2014)

Grandeur said:


> @nichya
> 
> That's great, can relate to it so well - especially being hypersensitive to inner states during times of stress. I can think of a number of examples where I've become paranoid over the smallest cues, which builds up and broods over in my mind. I'm quite good at keeping it together while burning up inside, torturing myself. Often when this hypersensitivity happens something will eventually happen, or a flash of logical reason will occur to disprove all my negative thoughts - _the colleague i'm perceiving animosity from will come over and invite me out for lunch, explaining that they're really stressed about something else at work_. The paranoia then rushes away in an instant, and I realise how irrational and egocentric I was being.


I get amazed how when stressed my inferior Fi takes over and can last a week or so, and in a snap I get out of it by one single thought.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

Peter said:


> Culture basically is set of values. And it's all about checking if their views and norms fit yours. In fact everything you wrote in that post is about how everythng effects you.


True, but what happens to values when there are no people around to enforce them? How can people affect me when there is no one around? I still define that as being people-oriented. Obviously it's not in the same way as Fe, but I see it as different approaches to the same thing rather than as something totally different.


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## Acadia (Mar 20, 2014)

Luke the Turner said:


> I don't even express my opinions anymore. Only if it's someone really close to me and even then it's rare. People just brushed it off, so I stopped giving a damn.
> 
> OT: Don't see my profile pic. You'll get emotional.


in those situations I try not to but she just...knows how to get me to talk.

I adore your profile pic! it's gorgeous. Arya's a great character, and I really relate to her. I have a Nymeria in my life, I'm a foilist, and I focused on wolf ecology in undergrad, moving on to work with them in a professional setting last summer. it was incredible.


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## Reluctanine (May 11, 2014)

@hornet



> Fi is an island onto itself emotionally. It is ready to stand alone against the world if the world aligns against what is percived as good. Fe tries to find likeminded, Fi soldiers on alone determined to find a way to preserve the inner image of goodness. The darker the world outside seems the more resolved Fi becomes to shelther what is percieved as the light.
> Dom Fi is in the absurd position that they see the inner light clearly, and see the outside world pretty clearly, yet trough their inferior thinking lack any clear way to apply the light to the outside world. It is a constant frustration of knowing what is right, but not being able to make what is right actually work.
> 
> There is so much that can be said for Fi, but I think this will do for now.


Wow, spot on!!! Is there a "clear way to apply the light to the outside world" that you know of for INFPs to use? As in, I would like to know your thoughts on resolving this frustration.


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

heartofpompeii said:


> I adore your profile pic! it's gorgeous. Arya's a great character, and I really relate to her. I have a Nymeria in my life, I'm a foilist, and I focused on wolf ecology in undergrad, moving on to work with them in a professional setting last summer. it was incredible.


Yes it is =)

I love Arya too. And I relate a lot to Bran. INFP brother and ISFP sister ftw.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Reluctanine said:


> @_hornet_
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, spot on!!! Is there a "clear way to apply the light to the outside world" that you know of for INFPs to use? As in, I would like to know your thoughts on resolving this frustration.


A clear way? Well I wish.

Your path starts here in the forest of nowhere.










Your only way trough is to constuct your path from scratch.
What is needed only yourself know, you are bringing a part of your subjectivity into the world.
Expect firm resistance from the objective plane as it resist this alien force as it makes it's entry.
The object neither likes nor cares for your subjective sentiments.
In the end you will have to figure out a compromise with Te, 
only Te has a firm enough grasp of the objective plane to make the essence of the light real.
Ne can be helpful, but is after all just a perciving function. It observes, but don't interact directly.


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## Acadia (Mar 20, 2014)

Luke the Turner said:


> Yes it is =)
> 
> I love Arya too. And I relate a lot to Bran. INFP brother and ISFP sister ftw.


heck yeah. =] Bran's one of my favorites for sure.


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## Reluctanine (May 11, 2014)

@hornet



> Your only way trough is to constuct your path from scratch.
> What is needed only yourself know, you are bringing a part of your subjectivity into the world.
> Expect firm resistance from the objective plane as it resist this alien force as it makes it's entry.
> The object neither likes nor cares for your subjective sentiments.
> ...


Hm, if that's the case, my subjective mouth will just have to eat the objective object up instead of making an entry. :laughing:

Basically, less words, more action, I think.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Reluctanine said:


> @_hornet_
> Hm, if that's the case, my subjective mouth will just have to eat the objective object up instead of making an entry. :laughing:
> 
> Basically, less words, more action, I think.


If that is the trail you choose to blaze then more power to you!


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## Blue Soul (Mar 14, 2015)

Fi users would make some room for their own values in their thought process, while Fe users would instead incorporate others' values in their thinking. The outcome of their action might be the same, but the way there is different.

For example, you are put in a situation where you must decide whether to tell the truth or not to a friend whose emotions will be hurt by this truth. The Fi user looks to his own value: "it's not always good to tell the truth just because it's true", and therefore spares the friend's emotions. The Fe user looks to the friend's values: "criticism is scary and should be avoided", and therefore also arrives at the conclusion to spare the friend's emotions over telling the hurtful truth.

Hope this helps.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

Reluctanine said:


> Basically, less words, more action, I think.


That is how I approach a lot of things, actually. Apologies, for one. It's so easy to say sorry without meaning it, or to wear the meaning out by saying it too much (I'm guilty of the latter, damn you female socialisation!!). Not so easy to actually change your ways, or to make amends. I see the latter as proof that someone genuinely is sorry... even if they slip up from time to time, the effort is what counts. Living out your inner feelings. I suspect it's the same for other Fi-doms. It's often easier to do things for others than to put words to your feelings.

Downside is that other people might not notice me doing it, especially if I fail a couple of times. So in trying to demonstrate sincerity, they still perceive insincerity. Just can't win, lol.


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## Reluctanine (May 11, 2014)

@ElliCat

OH GOSH YES!!! It's very difficult for me to say what I feel in real life. Life just moves so fast! There's barely time to react. So, I do things instead and sometimes people just miss it. I don't feel comfortable pointing out I've done something until someone starts getting snappy at me for not doing it. Then when I point out what I've done, they're like... oh. 

If I call attention to things I've done, it feels like I'm asking people to show gratitude to me or something and that's not how I feel inside. I do things because I want to. Just let me do them and don't assume I haven't done anything. And you're right, it's such a results-driven world, there's this mentality that if you've failed you might as well not have done anything at all. Which is not how actual progress is made.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

Reluctanine said:


> If I call attention to things I've done, it feels like I'm asking people to show gratitude to me or something and that's not how I feel inside. I do things because I want to.


Oh man this has gotten me into so much trouble. When it's me putting myself out for other people, I don't make a big deal out of it because a) I've chosen to do it and b) I don't want them to feel guilty. BUT of course they assume then that I've done it because I truly enjoy doing it, and don't respect me when I say enough's enough, or believe that I would ever put myself out for anyone else. I've started to think that maybe I should start letting people know in order to avoid this, but it still feels kind of obnoxious. At least I hate it when other people make a big deal out of how "selfless" they're being for my sake... I'd rather them just not bother if it's such an effort for them.

And on the other side, I've been misled by the assumption that if I'm this way, others might be too. I took one ex-friend's insistence that she really wanted to do this favour for me at face value, because I thought, why would she insist if she didn't really want to do it? Only to find out further down the track that she stores up every single one of these favours and then calculates how much you owe her based on these. If only I had've known her personality type then, I wouldn't've made that mistake!!


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## raminan (Jun 20, 2014)

After reading this I realized I use Fe more than Fi. Maybe I'm an ENFJ after all. I suspect I always got INFP because I already knew the tests and was just trying to be consistent.

edit: I also feel way better knowing I'm an xNFJ. Somehow INFP doesn't feel right.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> That's likely due to projection. Dominant Feeling is usually rational, inferior Feeling is often irrational.


I don't understand. What do you mean?


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I don't understand. What do you mean?


We project inferior function negative traits onto others. We all view occurrences through our own subjective lens, which twists the reality of our perceptions to varying extents. Either by emphasising or minimising certain aspects or jumping to conclusions about another's actions when our bias limits our ability to truly understand it. Often our behaviour matches the very same behaviour we note in others, we just don't consciously register ourselves acting that way. You see Fi as irrational because your own Fi is irrational, being in an undifferentiated state. Therefore you conclude that it must be irrational in others.


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## AdroElectro (Oct 28, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> We project inferior function negative traits onto others. We all view occurrences through our own subjective lens, which twists the reality of our perceptions to varying extents. Either by emphasising or minimising certain aspects or jumping to conclusions about another's actions when our bias limits our ability to truly understand it. Often our behaviour matches the very same behaviour we note in others, we just don't consciously register ourselves acting that way. You see Fi as irrational because your own Fi is irrational, being in an undifferentiated state. Therefore you conclude that it must be irrational in others.


I think that's an interesting theory, but I'm going to have to disagree. I have observed Fi-doms to be extremely irrational at times as well, and I'm Fi aux.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

AdroElectro said:


> I think that's an interesting theory, but I'm going to have to disagree. I have observed Fi-doms to be extremely irrational at times as well, and I'm Fi aux.


Well in my experience Fi aux is very - very - different than Fi dom but I think what she meant was indeed. The roles differ so you think that it manifests the same way as it does for doms which is not the ultimate truth.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

AdroElectro said:


> I think that's an interesting theory, but I'm going to have to disagree. I have observed Fi-doms to be extremely irrational at times as well, and I'm Fi aux.


Everyone is irrational at times. 

Fi, Fe, Ti and Te in the dominant position are all equally rational functions. Their judgements are in keeping with laws of reason. The further they are away from the dominant position, the more irrational, personal and emotional their judgements become. Fi doms are no more irrational than any other type, so to continually associate irrationality with Fi doms indicates a high likelihood of projection.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> We project inferior function negative traits onto others. We all view occurrences through our own subjective lens, which twists the reality of our perceptions to varying extents. Either by emphasising or minimising certain aspects or jumping to conclusions about another's actions when our bias limits our ability to truly understand it. Often our behaviour matches the very same behaviour we note in others, we just don't consciously register ourselves acting that way. You see Fi as irrational because your own Fi is irrational, being in an undifferentiated state. Therefore you conclude that it must be irrational in others.


Forgive me if I'm being dumb, but I still don't understand what you're meaning. I was simply observing the irrationality of IxFPs because my INFP friend makes some really (what I would class as) "stupid" decisions which have no rational basis. I don't see how rationality can be subjective.


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## Blue Soul (Mar 14, 2015)

raminan said:


> After reading this I realized I use Fe more than Fi. Maybe I'm an ENFJ after all. I suspect I always got INFP because I already knew the tests and was just trying to be consistent.


Just the fact that you're trying to please a perceived expectation that might not be your own could be a tell towards E, but doesn't have to be. Follow your initial gut feeling.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Forgive me if I'm being dumb, but I still don't understand what you're meaning. I was simply observing the irrationality of IxFPs because my INFP friend makes some really (what I would class as) "stupid" decisions which have no rational basis. I don't see how rationality can be subjective.


Probably inferior Te. Working within the realm of Fi (so being aware of their own emotions and values, making judgements according to those) they will be perfectly rational. Going outside of that into Te territory is where we start to look less so. I know I've copped a bit of flack for some seemingly irrational decisions I've made, but what can I say, I'm a slave to my Fi. Doesn't mean I don't know what's logical... just means that my feelings trump cold hard logic.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Forgive me if I'm being dumb, but I still don't understand what you're meaning. I was simply observing the irrationality of IxFPs because my INFP friend makes some really (what I would class as) "stupid" decisions which have no rational basis. I don't see how rationality can be subjective.


If you're basing your judgement off the actions of one infp, then it could simply be that your friend is irrational. In that case, your statement about being an Fi-dom giving people the excuse to be irrational, would also be quite irrational, in itself.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> If you're basing your judgement off the actions of one infp, then it could simply be that your friend is irrational. In that case, your statement about being an Fi-dom giving people the excuse to be irrational, would also be quite irrational, in itself.


I'm hypothesizing that Fi (or inferior Te) may be the cause. But then I can't criticize because it could well be that Fi-doms are inherently irrational. That's what I don't get about Fi - how it makes decisions. Also, statements like "I don't care about logic" or "I don't care if it's not rational" really strike me. I mean, why would someone _knowingly_ do something that's irrational? How can they do something that's harmful to them? It doesn't surprise me that IxFPs are sometimes stereotyped as emos - they harm themselves for no reason! I made a thread on this and all the responses I got was "It's about how I feel rather than what's rational". I don't get how that's related. The misconception, I believe, comes from people equating rationality to neutrality (or lack of subjectivity) when infact, how something affects your mood/feelings is factored into the rational process. If someone decides to do something because it makes them "feel better" then clearly the benefits of "feeling better" must outweigh the (opportunity) cost(s) of the alternatives. So when my friend does something that conflicts with his objective and cannot justify it, I'm puzzled. A lot of these decisions which are irrational relate to time-inconsistency and an extremely high positive time preference, so in that sense it may not be irrational. But abnormal discounting of the future (i.e. "YOLO" attitude) is not something I can relate to.


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## raminan (Jun 20, 2014)

Blue Soul said:


> Just the fact that you're trying to please a perceived expectation that might not be your own could be a tell towards E, but doesn't have to be. Follow your initial gut feeling.


ENFJ does sound like me though. I always go for the majority, opinion-wise. Except, I'm not sure I'm an E.


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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

Fi and Te check each other. So a person who hasn't yet nourished their Te will be more likely to make decisions centered on personal values and ideals with less regard for logistics. Likewise someone who hasn't nurtured their Fi will be less in tune with their feelings and may be harsh and demanding. I think it's important to remember that imbalance manifests in irrationality of various kinds.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I'm hypothesizing that Fi (or inferior Te) may be the cause. But then I can't criticize because it could well be that Fi-doms are inherently irrational. That's what I don't get about Fi - how it makes decisions. Also, statements like "I don't care about logic" or "I don't care if it's not rational" really strike me. I mean, why would someone _knowingly_ do something that's irrational? How can they do something that's harmful to them? It doesn't surprise me that IxFPs are sometimes stereotyped as emos - they harm themselves for no reason! I made a thread on this and all the responses I got was "It's about how I feel rather than what's rational". I don't get how that's related. The misconception, I believe, comes from people equating rationality to neutrality (or lack of subjectivity) when infact, how something affects your mood/feelings is factored into the rational process. If someone decides to do something because it makes them "feel better" then clearly the benefits of "feeling better" must outweigh the (opportunity) cost(s) of the alternatives. So when my friend does something that conflicts with his objective and cannot justify it, I'm puzzled. A lot of these decisions which are irrational relate to time-inconsistency and an extremely high positive time preference, so in that sense it may not be irrational. But abnormal discounting of the future (i.e. "YOLO" attitude) is not something I can relate to.


I skimmed through the thread you mentioned and it seems there was a variety of responses, not all of them were "I don't care about logic", etc. 

As long as you dismiss an alternative perspective as simply being stupid or irrational, you will inevitably find it difficult to understand. What you see as correct and true is not the one and only truth, it's just one version of 'truth', viewed within one limited perspective.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> I skimmed through the thread you mentioned and it seems there was a variety of responses, not all of them were "I don't care about logic", etc.
> 
> As long as you dismiss an alternative perspective as simply being stupid or irrational, you will inevitably find it difficult to understand. What you see as correct and true is not the one and only truth, it's just one version of 'truth', viewed within one limited perspective.


Here's what I don't get: why would someone trust their "feeling" (i.e. deceive themselves of reality) when they could make a sure decision using the facts? That's really were Fi breaks down as a decision-making function. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I can kinda imagine that some people do things because it "feels" right (even though it's clearly wrong) but I don't get why they would do that _consistently_. I mean, why is _feeling_ right (with a probability that it's wrong) so important? It's when my friend will do something even though I've told him why that's a bad decision yet will still do it anyway despite having no valid reason to, then ends up regretting it for the exact reasons I said. Or even worse, _denies_ that it was the wrong decision (even though it's clearly put him in a worse off situation). That's what I mean. The spectacularly volatile nature of Fi puzzles me.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Here's what I don't get: why would someone trust their "feeling" (i.e. deceive themselves of reality) when they could make a sure decision using the facts? That's really were Fi breaks down as a decision-making function. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I can kinda imagine that some people do things because it "feels" right (even though it's clearly wrong) but I don't get why they would do that _consistently_. I mean, why is _feeling_ right (with a probability that it's wrong) so important? It's when my friend will do something even though I've told him why that's a bad decision yet will still do it anyway despite having no valid reason to, then ends up regretting it for the exact reasons I said. Or even worse, _denies_ that it was the wrong decision (even though it's clearly put him in a worse off situation). That's what I mean. The spectacularly volatile nature of Fi puzzles me.


why would someone trust their introverted intuition? It is also a subjective function because it is inwards. Please remember that we are objective logic users, unlike the INFJs whose truth and logic is subjective and they can't even see that because that is how introverted functions work. Why would I trust statistics when I am guided by my -own- feelings? What is the point in following the crowd if the crowd -makes- the logic? We are not talking about pure science here. Why is rationale is so important? It is just the system and the system can be wrong. what is more natural than -feeling- right that comes from within? You should also remember that we use objective logic with matters that are not very personal to us, so why does it bother you if we make our personal choices with our feelings? Also again please note that INFPs are totally aware of what is real and what is dreamland, we just prefer to stay in the latter so it is not a -can't- Since when feeling is deceiving yourself of reality? facepalm* What -is- reality for you? I think being an INTJ you should be able to have a better grasp of Fi.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

nichya said:


> why would someone trust their introverted intuition? It is also a subjective function because it is inwards. Please remember that we are objective logic users, unlike the INFJs whose truth and logic is subjective and they can't even see that because that is how introverted functions work. Why would I trust statistics when I am guided by my -own- feelings? What is the point in following the crowd if the crowd -makes- the logic? We are not talking about pure science here. Why is rationale is so important? It is just the system and the system can be wrong. what is more natural than -feeling- right that comes from within? You should also remember that we use objective logic with matters that are not very personal to us, so why does it bother you if we make our personal choices with our feelings? Also again please note that INFPs are totally aware of what is real and what is dreamland, we just prefer to stay in the latter so it is not a -can't- Since when feeling is deceiving yourself of reality? facepalm* What -is- reality for you? I think being an INTJ you should be able to have a better grasp of Fi.




I can only go off my observation. All of my friend's problems stem from inability to act on sound advice (Fi-Si) - I.e. "I didn't come up with it so it doesn't feel right". INFPs are HUGE suckers for framing. As I said, feelings are factored in to the rational decision. But they don't add up even still. Like, I ask my friend "why didn't you do this instead?" Or why don't you do this and I try to cover every angle, ask if I'm missing something yet despite everything in my reasoning making perfect sense the decision (outcome) is still not the rational one. And the cause can never be pinned down. That's where I'm stuck. It's nothing to do with "logic". Just plain irrationality. I don't understand it. And I really wish I could understand the thought process, otherwise it leads me to conclude that Fi-doms are just stupid (which obviously isn't the case).


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

It almost seems as if Fi imposes unnecessary constraints on a decision which then becomes irrational because it doesn't"feel right" even though there is no reason why that is the case.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Maybe we just see the Te and Fe thinking their lives as a chess game, less personal, more playing along with the system and we think they -are- the suckers. Unnecessary constraints for you, this is crazy lol. Are you perfectly happy with your life? Well maybe you should learn to let live your friends. they might seem as if they have all these problems stemming from not acting on -your- advice but maybe that is not what they truly wish either. Why can't you be more like ENTJs? They sure seem to be more efficient and more logical than to take their Ni as guidance, well good luck.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

I only try to help my friend. I am happy, yes. I don't have regrets because I make rational choices. That's why I'm interested. I don't mean to insult Fi-doms, I just can't understand how they make decisions which are blatantly self-harming. And no, extraverted judging didn't mean lack of preferences and/or opinions. It just means rational decisions


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Okay this is going in a weird direction anyway, please read the Jungian definitions of the functions. My friend is a sucker because he doesn't listen to me apparently can't make the best assumption on a type.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Compromising your Fi is also self-harming, your measures are what the system defines while we have personal measures.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

nichya said:


> Compromising your Fi is also self-harming, your measures are what the system defines while we have personal measures.



Like I said, Te has nothing to do with lack of preference or opinion. I'm not talking about favourite colours here. I'm taking about DECISIONS! This I where the functions thing gets messy. It seems to imply that Fi-doms make bad decisions and Te-doms are robots.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Ok I think I overlooked a key part there. You said "personal measures". How can that be? To be rational, an objective needs to be defined, and the individual must do their best to achieve it. So in that sense it's impossible for anyone (especially Fi-doms, with their more "personal" objectives) to be irrational. So clearly there's always a "hidden agenda". For example, when I ask my friend for justification of a decision compared to an alternative, and after going through why the alternative is better for his criteria, the final answer ends up being "I don't know". That's where I'm like, does Fi limit rationality?


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## Reluctanine (May 11, 2014)

Fi-Te always works in concerto. The difference between Te-Fi and Fi-Te is that Te-Fi is more objective and goal-focused, with the understanding that efficiency whilst doing the right thing is the best and correct way and indirectly leads to people feeling good. Fi-Te is more people focused, taking into account the feelings of people around them, planting themselves in the shoes of the other person and extrapolating how they would feel if someone did this to them. With the rational being that treating people how they would like to be treated indirectly leads to a more efficient way of achieving goals and objectives because humans are after all social creatures.

The problem comes in when Fi-doms are not exposed to enough people and situations to understand more points-of-views more fully and the emotional impact their actions cause. Decisions become illogical because we are drawing from an incomplete experience of humanity’s emotional and thinking range.

It’s very hard to explain why we do the things we do face-to-face, especially under a direct enquiry that might lead to conflict, because, we do still have Te and avoid conflict which leads to time wastage when dealing with people, also known as sparing people's feelings. We want to be efficient though this is subconsciously felt. Instead of a direct line of question, it would probably be a lot better to say, “Well, if I were in your shoes, I would do this, this, and this, because of that and that and that. This leads to you or other people feeling…” This feeds into our Ne and Si and breaks the cycle of seemingly irrational decisions to the outside world, which make perfect rational sense to us.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Fi, like Ti, is an introverted judging function, that is based in feelings, which means this:

When faced with a perplexing situation or problem or decision, the first instinct of an IXFP will usually be to look inward for a solution. This is something pretty much all introverts do, but an IXFP will, particularly want to draw a definite conclusion or make a decision. That's where the "judging" comes in. Fi doms may not be decisive externally, but can be very decisive internally, and will want to determine something conclusive in their minds. This conclusion will usually be drawn by evaluating whatever information the Fi dom takes in based on their feelings. The word "feelings" in the Jungian sense, is often misunderstood as emotion, but it's really more values, valuations, and ethics. It could be if a person believe an action was "right", or if they believe a piece of music is "good", if a dress is pretty, if a person is worthy.

I'm not sure if this is true of those on here, I try really hard not to generalize. We're all unique individuals, but I find a lot of XXFPs that I've known seem to struggle with the issue, sometimes, of feeling worthy. They often rate themselves and,sometimes others on the scale of highly worthy to worthless, based on how they've been treated by others throughout their lives. I'm thinking this is an aspect of making value judgments on people in their minds. Value seems to be as important as _values_. I've never met an XXFP that didn't surround themselves with something or someone or someones that were of value to _them._ It's like the INFP thread I had stumbled upon. It had a poll of would the INFP would want to be with a person who loved them or the person they loved, more? and, interestingly, a slight majority voted that they would want to be with the person they loved more than the person who loved them. To me, it resonated the idea that they trusted their own judgment on value than those of others....

But I think that's also an integral part of being an introvert in general. @s2theizay, I imagine, as a Ti dom, you trust your logic and opinions more than those of people in general, often. As an Ni dom, I often trust my intuition over that of others, or over the general consensus.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Of course, the above being said, I am sadly aware that I'll never _truly_ understand Fi, because I'm analyzing it as I explain it. You can't freaking analyze feelings!! Not with logic at least. It's a different logic. It makes me sad to think of it. I absolutely love interacting with my FP friends. They resonate with something from the inside that's so organic. Maybe it's a sort of fascination with the "other" that I'm afflicted with.


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## Zeta Neprok (Jul 27, 2010)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> For example, when I ask my friend for justification of a decision compared to an alternative, and after going through why the alternative is better for his criteria, the final answer ends up being "I don't know". That's where I'm like, does Fi limit rationality?


Sorry, I just had to share an idea I have as to why you're friend is so baffling to you. 

The thing about Fi reasoning is that it's very hard to explain with words as to why we may or may not be doing something. I would imagine your friend likely does know why they did the thing they did (whatever that thing is), but trying to communicate with words is probably difficult. This is especially true if you catch them off guard. Sometimes it takes me a lot of time to reflect on something for it to even make sense to me, so it's very easy that I get caught off guard. So he's likely going to say "I don't know" or "it just felt right" because that may be the best explanation he could give at the time. So I don't think that Fi limits rationality, it's just very difficult to explain the reasoning for a decision. But if I was to guess, I would say that your friend has a deeper reason for his decision even if it seems irrational to you.

I can easily see why this would be baffling or even frustrating to most people. Who knows, maybe you'll understand in time?


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Yes, I frequently get "It's hard to explain" or "I'm bad at explaining stuff". But why? How is it that Fi decisions are hard to explain? Clearly there's a reason why they do something and if they know it, why can't they explain it?


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Yes, I frequently get "It's hard to explain" or "I'm bad at explaining stuff". But why? How is it that Fi decisions are hard to explain? Clearly there's a reason why they do something and if they know it, why can't they explain it?


Even Jung says he can not fully understand Fi and that is because we just can't explain it, the same way you wouldn't be able to explain your Ni in a clear logical way.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Here's what I don't get: why would someone trust their "feeling" (i.e. deceive themselves of reality) when they could make a sure decision using the facts? That's really were Fi breaks down as a decision-making function. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I can kinda imagine that some people do things because it "feels" right (even though it's clearly wrong) but I don't get why they would do that _consistently_. I mean, why is _feeling_ right (with a probability that it's wrong) so important? It's when my friend will do something even though I've told him why that's a bad decision yet will still do it anyway despite having no valid reason to, then ends up regretting it for the exact reasons I said. Or even worse, _denies_ that it was the wrong decision (even though it's clearly put him in a worse off situation). That's what I mean. The spectacularly volatile nature of Fi puzzles me.


Since I don't know your friend, I can't comment on his reasoning or lack of. Personally, I can't say that I'm often accused of being irrational. Most of the time I'm able to explain my decisions in a way that can be understood by those around me. Not always immediately, but at some point. In addition, my judgements tend to be fairly reliable and often prove to be correct. So people who know me have a certain amount of respect for my pov and don't tend to dismiss my reasoning as irrational or stupid. 
On the other hand, I'm aware of times which I may appear irrational to others and at those times, I'm selective with the information I divulge. Anyway, my point being I find it difficult to relate to the description of your friend. 

Feeling types seem to be aware of feelings at a much more subtle level than thinking types. We all know that feelings overthrow logic. Whenever feelings reach a certain level of intensity, they are going to take over, no matter how logical a person usually is. So I'm pretty sure you can understand that dynamic, since at some point you are bound to have become completely irrational as a result of intense feelings. 
For dominant feeling types particularly, they're aware of feelings almost all the time. Long before the feelings become intense enough to be reactive, volatile and completely impossible to control. 
In contrast, by the time Thinking types become aware of their feelings, they're probably well on their way to being reactive. Since their F function is mostly unconscious, it drags up all the other unconscious crap with it, including all the socially unacceptable traits they've suppressed while growing and developing. That's why, when they are forced to utilise their feeling function, they can easily act like completely unreasonable, self-absorbed, tantrum throwing, spoilt babies. 
With all the intense emotions mixed in, it's highly selfish and personal. 
F types are taking feeling into account long before it gets to that stage, so feelings aren't usually overthrowing logic to the same unreasonable extent. 

Fi is always aiming towards ideals. Not goals, efficiency, productivity, etc. Ultimately the ideals are what matters and if the goals conflict with the ideals, then ideals will be prioritised. If they could easily prioritise goals instead, then they would be another type. While their decisions might be clearly wrong for working towards a goal, they are right for working towards an ideal. 

They don't always have a definite idea of the ideals they're aiming towards, but they know when they're on track or when they're veering off track. On track brings feelings of peace or even elation. Off track brings feelings that are uncomfortable and unsettling. It's important that something feels right because otherwise the uncomfortable and unsettling feelings they experience when they veer off track will increase in intensity. Trying to ignore feelings that seriously conflict with ideals, can lead to disturbing feelings overtaking their thought processes, making getting on with tasks and life in general increasingly difficult. If they can't correct their decision and fix the problem, their feelings can overwhelm them for a long time. 

That's my best attempt at an explanation, so I hope it was somewhat useful.


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## Reluctanine (May 11, 2014)

What are ideals?

For a Fi-dom, an ideal is what we perceive as the best way for us to be. What the ideal actually is differs from each person, but the ideal is the best, the perfect, the dream.

When you take this ideal, and imagine that everyone acts the same way as well, an idealised society takes form in service of that dream and thus, the most efficient society that serves that ideal takes form. By contrast, if everyone has their own different versions of that ideal, more rifts occur and society becomes less efficient when we measure it by the ideal.

That’s why our Te is subconscious.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

@Neverontime Thanks for the clarification. I do wonder why my friend is always so calm and rarely gets angry or emotionally expressive. I think you summed it up perfectly with this paragraph:

"_Fi is always aiming towards ideals. Not goals, efficiency, productivity, etc. Ultimately the ideals are what matters and if the goals conflict with the ideals, then ideals will be prioritised. If they could easily prioritise goals instead, then they would be another type. While their decisions might be clearly wrong for working towards a goal, they are right for working towards an ideal._"

That's what I've been trying to say this whole time. They don't care about REALITY. They don't care if what they do will achieve the desired outcome. They do it because they _want_ that to be the case, even if it blatantly _isn't_. That's my confusion: why focus so much on an ideal when you can take the decisions to actually make it happen? Why pretend to live in "lala land" when it's obvious that a certain action will most definitely not lead to the ideal outcome? It's almost as if there is a fundamental disconnect in an INFP's mind between cause and effect. I'm a bit stumped by this notion of "ideal".


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

define desired outcome 



nO_d3N1AL said:


> @Neverontime Thanks for the clarification. I do wonder why my friend is always so calm and rarely gets angry or emotionally expressive. I think you summed it up perfectly with this paragraph:
> 
> "_Fi is always aiming towards ideals. Not goals, efficiency, productivity, etc. Ultimately the ideals are what matters and if the goals conflict with the ideals, then ideals will be prioritised. If they could easily prioritise goals instead, then they would be another type. While their decisions might be clearly wrong for working towards a goal, they are right for working towards an ideal._"
> 
> That's what I've been trying to say this whole time. They don't care about REALITY. They don't care if what they do will achieve the desired outcome. They do it because they _want_ that to be the case, even if it blatantly _isn't_. That's my confusion: why focus so much on an ideal when you can take the decisions to actually make it happen? Why pretend to live in "lala land" when it's obvious that a certain action will most definitely not lead to the ideal outcome? It's almost as if there is a fundamental disconnect in an INFP's mind between cause and effect. I'm a bit stumped by this notion of "ideal".


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

nichya said:


> define desired outcome


So my friend would have all these (long-term) goals but when it comes to actually doing something towards them he may not take it so seriously. Or might want to do lots of things which he clearly hasn't got the time to do yet doesn't prioritize them in order of "importance" or value; - even though he would gain greater utility from some more than others. That's kinda what I'm meaning. When asked why he doesn't prioritize (given the temporal constraint), he says "because I want to do all of them and I'll do whichever I feel like doing" or something like that.

The ideal is to do a lot of things that he hasn't got the time for, but despite this he may actually spend a lot of his time doing things that aren't on his "to do" list - he'd simply "add them on" to the list even though he doesn't really care. That's what I'm meaning - someone that has clearly defined objectives but does not take appropriate action to fulfill those objectives.


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

Duo said:


> Consider Fi as a process that dips into a database full of personal values, to ascertain whether something is right or wrong, authentic or not. Even though Fi is considered a rational function by Jung, it's not logic oriented.
> 
> For some reason, INTPs often confuse Si-Fe for Fi.


Because Fe is seen as shared communal values. INTPs often don't feel bound by such values, and therefore appear more Fi like. But we aren't really bound by our own values either.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> @Neverontime Thanks for the clarification. I do wonder why my friend is always so calm and rarely gets angry or emotionally expressive. I think you summed it up perfectly with this paragraph:
> 
> "_Fi is always aiming towards ideals. Not goals, efficiency, productivity, etc. Ultimately the ideals are what matters and if the goals conflict with the ideals, then ideals will be prioritised. If they could easily prioritise goals instead, then they would be another type. While their decisions might be clearly wrong for working towards a goal, they are right for working towards an ideal._"
> 
> That's what I've been trying to say this whole time. They don't care about REALITY. They don't care if what they do will achieve the desired outcome. They do it because they _want_ that to be the case, even if it blatantly _isn't_. That's my confusion: why focus so much on an ideal when you can take the decisions to actually make it happen? Why pretend to live in "lala land" when it's obvious that a certain action will most definitely not lead to the ideal outcome? It's almost as if there is a fundamental disconnect in an INFP's mind between cause and effect. I'm a bit stumped by this notion of "ideal".


'Ideal outcome', like 'reality' is a matter of perspective. Their reasons are the same as your reasons, because their ego is driven by it's own aims and justifications and it's own interpretations of reality. Convincing them to give up their reality is almost as impossible as convincing you to give up yours.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> 'Ideal outcome', like 'reality' is a matter of perspective. Their reasons are the same as your reasons, because their ego is driven by it's own aims and justifications and it's own interpretations of reality. Convincing them to give up their reality is almost as impossible as convincing you to give up yours.


I don't understand. Reality is not subjective


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I don't understand. Reality is not subjective


I disagree.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> I disagree.


Depends on what you're meaning by reality. I was meaning more in the sense of cause and effect, rather than perception. If misinterpretation of reality is the cause of Fi's irrationality, then this would imply that IxFPs are delusional


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Depends on what you're meaning by reality. I was meaning more in the sense of cause and effect, rather than perception. If misinterpretation of reality is the cause of Fi's irrationality, then this would imply that IxFPs are delusional


Lol, no. 
You will figure it out eventually


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> Lol, no.
> You will figure it out eventually


You've given up, haven't you 

Not sure if I'm missing something extremely obvious, or if I'm just annoying, or both, or maybe because you're INFP your Fi cannot analyse itself and explain it xD

On a serious note, I can vaguely imagine Fi being like a first response to something - instantly knowing whether it's right or not. Given that it's hard to explain, I presume there is little (if any) thought gone into the judgement/decision. But then when someone comes along and lays down the facts and observable "reality" of the situation, one would surely ask themselves "They make a good point - why did I do that?". My view is that Fi reacts and makes an internal judgement based on - what seems to outsiders as - absolutely nothing tangible. It then is never thought through any further with any objectivity.

The problem is that Fi (at least in my friend) does not lead to welfare-improving decisions (as defined by his own goals) so given its low success rate, I don't get how it works. Either the objectives of Fi-doms are made up literally on-the-spot or they give very little weight to their long-term ambitions.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> You've given up, haven't you
> 
> Not sure if I'm missing something extremely obvious, or if I'm just annoying, or both, or maybe because you're INFP your Fi cannot analyse itself and explain it xD


Almost :happy:




> On a serious note, I can vaguely imagine Fi being like a first response to something - instantly knowing whether it's right or not. Given that it's hard to explain, I presume there is little (if any) thought gone into the judgement/decision. But then when someone comes along and lays down the facts and observable "reality" of the situation, one would surely ask themselves "They make a good point - why did I do that?". My view is that Fi reacts and makes an internal judgement based on - what seems to outsiders as - absolutely nothing tangible. It then is never thought through any further with any objectivity.


That happens at times, but that's not Fi, that would be feeling-intuition. Fi judgements are thought through, feeling-intuition simply presents itself with varying degrees of certainty. I will say that whenever my level of certainty is high at those times, I've been consistently accurate and not regretted my decision later. I actually love it when that happens, because it removes the doubt which I find usually hinders my action and progress. 

Fi compares and contrasts, weighing up many factors of the whole situation. My biggest problem is usually considering too many aspects or points of view, rather than not considering things enough. 

When another person comes and lays down the observable facts of the situation and I disagree with their conclusion, it's mostly because I think that they haven't taken into consideration all the factors influencing the situation. They seem to miss what I see as important aspects.




> The problem is that Fi (at least in my friend) does not lead to welfare-improving decisions (as defined by his own goals) so given its low success rate, I don't get how it works. Either the objectives of Fi-doms are made up literally on-the-spot or they give very little weight to their long-term ambitions.


Could you be more specific about your friends behaviour by giving an example? 
I suspect that I may understand what's happening, but I want to be sure before I present any more possibilities, otherwise the discussion will likely become confusing.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> Could you be more specific about your friends behaviour by giving an example?
> I suspect that I may understand what's happening, but I want to be sure before I present any more possibilities, otherwise the discussion will likely become confusing.


Just general management of time and money. He's not good at it, despite me suggesting solutions and trying to help but seems to ignore me or wants to change the conversation. Is it an Fi thing to brush problems under the carpet, or is it that Fi-doms _want_ to have problems? Because if the solutions are there, why not take them? It seems as if Fi creates problems for itself because it refuses to actually solve them with reasoning. That's what frustrates me - how can Fi doms claim to be happy or say "it feels right" when they're making themselves worse off? I would like to know how much of his irrationality can be attributed to Fi and how much is personal. Is it that INFPs are naturally stubborn and ignore the voice of reason because of their "feelings"? If so, then how can INFPs ever be successful?


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Just general management of time and money. He's not good at it, despite me suggesting solutions and trying to help but seems to ignore me or wants to change the conversation. Is it an Fi thing to brush problems under the carpet, or is it that Fi-doms _want_ to have problems? Because if the solutions are there, why not take them? It seems as if Fi creates problems for itself because it refuses to actually solve them with reasoning. That's what frustrates me - how can Fi doms claim to be happy or say "it feels right" when they're making themselves worse off? I would like to know how much of his irrationality can be attributed to Fi and how much is personal. Is it that INFPs are naturally stubborn and ignore the voice of reason because of their "feelings"? If so, then how can INFPs ever be successful?


:laughing:

Yeah, your suggestions can't help him. 

You wouldn't believe the amount of attempts I've had at improving my own time management and general organisation skills. I've sought advice from different people, read books, researched online, tried various techniques and methods. It was actually that research that led me to mbti (which is why I chose this username). After running out of methods to try, I realised that there must be something about me that made applying these particular skills significantly more difficult for me than it is for most people. I knew it wasn't due to lack of knowledge or lack of effort, yet I still somehow found it a constant losing battle.

My brain isn't 'wired' for it. I can't access the information I need until the pressure's on. If I try to organise everything ahead of time, I totally miss really important details. I write things down on lists and then lose them or completely forget to check them. I could go on and on about the many ways by which I never fail to be utterly unorganised. 
I've tried a lot to improve myself in this. In spite of the difficulties which I inevitably experience every step of the way, I have pushed myself several times and stuck with it, hoping that eventually somethings going to click and it's going to become easier so that I don't need to push myself every single moment. Instead , I always came to a point where I didn't even want to get out of bed in a morning. Everything lost meaning and importance and I just felt empty and mentally drained. 

Whatever other people gain from being organised and efficient, I don't benefit from the same. I do better if I accept that about myself and try working with my nature rather than against it. The problem is society works against my nature anyway, since apparently the world doesn't bend to suit my preferences  
Soo, I've not given up on trying to overcome these problems, but for now I'm pretty much stuck in a seemingly no-win situation. 

If you get frustrated by your friend, imagine how frustrated he is with himself. Then you can hopefully understand why he avoids discussing it. He likely already knows that whatever you suggest isn't going to help. 

So to answer your questions, it's not because they want problems or because they want to sweep them under the carpet. Your solutions aren't their solutions and most of them are probably equally confused as to why.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

ferroequinologist said:


> But that leads me to something you seem to have.... ah... missed, that I said. Your attempts to prod him to do more may actually be backfiring--creating a certain dread and paralysis that entirely shuts him down. When I was a teen, especially my last year in high school, my mom especially, would attempt to pressure me into making decisions and doing things. The more she pressed, the more I resisted. However, if I were allowed to do things on my own--I loved walking in our woods, or riding my BMX, doing tricks--I could work through the many points of confusion, and work out my own solution--but the more others interfered, the worse it would get. I know that everybody thinks that everybody else needs advice, and that we owe it to them, and that we can "help" others by telling them what to do or how to do it, but at least for Ji types, my experience has been the opposite.


Oh yes, I know that feeling of paralysis. Often I actually know what I want to do and how to get there, but the thought of having to deal with all the questions and well-meaning criticisms and the way-off-the-mark advice..... yeah no thanks. Still don't know why people can't just mind their own business, but apparently it's essential that we all give our two cents, regardless of whether we actually know what we're talking about. And there really seems to be something about Fi-doms (or at least INFP's) that give off this naive air, so people think they're doing us a favour by "guiding us", when in reality we're (usually) pretty good at taking care of ourselves. And if we slip up from time to time, well, it's just part of the fun right?



> What we _do_ need to do, though, is engage our auxiliary function. In the case of your INFP friend--if he is--he needs to engage his Ne. However, if he is an ISFP, then Ne would be the worst thing for him. He would need to engage his Se.


Likewise, if he's an INFP, Se is not good. Might have to run a few experiments to figure out which one he is. XD 

Sometimes daydreaming is enough for me, but usually if I need a proper pick-me-up, I need something new. Anything from a new book/TV series, to learning a new skill, to ordering a new drink in a cafe, to going for a walk in a new place (depending on the level of social interaction or exercise needed). Exercise in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, but I either need to find it enjoyable - something like dance will bring out my creativity and the emotions that Fi likes to hold in - or tolerate it enough that I can zone out and, well, daydream. 

@ferroequinologist I hope this answers your question on how to engage Ne! I can relate to what your wife likes to do too. I agree that chess is too rigid, with too many rules to memorise - maybe if I was interested in it as a hobby it would be fine, but when I want to relax this is the last thing I want.



> Of course, a young, and immature IFP can wallow in their problems, etc. But honestly, get them out of their heads, and things will start to square.


Especially if they're a 4, omg. -_- But again, the answer is actually to let them be. I'm having a similar dilemma with an INFP friend (who's probably also a 4)... how to respect her boundaries but also give her a small push when she needs it. It's tricky even when you're the same type. What I'm doing now is 1. to ask what she wants me to do/how she wants me to react, and 2. try to create some new experiences with her rather than directly combat those difficult issues. Don't know how it's going but she doesn't hate me yet, so I think that's a plus?


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

ElliCat said:


> Oh yes, I know that feeling of paralysis. Often I actually know what I want to do and how to get there, but the thought of having to deal with all the questions and well-meaning criticisms and the way-off-the-mark advice..... yeah no thanks. Still don't know why people can't just mind their own business, but apparently it's essential that we all give our two cents, regardless of whether we actually know what we're talking about. *And there really seems to be something about Fi-doms (or at least INFP's) that give off this naive air, so people think they're doing us a favour by "guiding us"*, when in reality we're (usually) pretty good at taking care of ourselves. And if we slip up from time to time, well, it's just part of the fun right?


I think ISFPs give off that same air. I know I've had to deal with it my whole life, and there has been some discussion on the ISFP board about this. People seem to think we don't know what we are doing, when we do... I guess it's that Fi-ness. ;-)





> _ferroequinologist_ I hope this answers your question on how to engage Ne! I can relate to what your wife likes to do too. I agree that chess is too rigid, with too many rules to memorise - maybe if I was interested in it as a hobby it would be fine, but when I want to relax this is the last thing I want.


Yes, that did answer my questions. Thanks. 




> Especially if they're a 4, omg. -_- But again, the answer is actually to let them be. I'm having a similar dilemma with an INFP friend (who's probably also a 4)... how to respect her boundaries but also give her a small push when she needs it. It's tricky even when you're the same type. What I'm doing now is 1. to ask what she wants me to do/how she wants me to react, and 2. try to create some new experiences with her rather than directly combat those difficult issues. Don't know how it's going but she doesn't hate me yet, so I think that's a plus?


I have a younger ISFP friend guy. He married late in life, and I met him before he married. It was tough--he'd even ask for advice, and while I knew how much he was like me, it was awkward even trying to give him advice. Actually, I always hate giving advice. I don't think of it as advice in my mind. I consider it just offering my perspective--even if it sometimes sounds firm--that's just my weak thinking function, I'm guessing. Anyway, I don't like giving advice. And I don't care if someone listens to me or not. Sometimes it hurts to see people ignore what I said, only to see them crash, but for the most part, I'm almost happier if they don't listen. ;-) I do like to say what I would do, or how I see things, and sometimes I'll even offer straight-up advice, but with lots of caveats. I don't like giving advice. Did I say that? ;-)


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## mirrorghost (Sep 18, 2012)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> @_ferroequinologist_ Yes, I realised that Fi resists trying to be helped or people that want to make them do things in a way that's not their own. I totally get why someone would want independence and to figure things out for themselves - even if it's less efficient, more error-prone and more ambiguous. It's just that I can't bear to see my friend (or anyone I care about for that matter) be upset or not achieve their goals when, in my mind, the solution is obvious. I guess everyone has their own approach and way of doing things and it's best not to change that, but to let that mature and develop. It's just that with Fi, there's not much that can be done by an outsider. And thank you for explaining why Fi seems to discount the future so heavily. I would've thought ISFPs wouldn't be as present-minded as INFPs because they have tertiary Ni whereas INFPs have tertiary Si. Indeed, my friend is very habitual - even habits which he wants to change (or rather, _should_ change) and some really minor things. For example, he's known me for many years yet he still forgets that I don't have milk in my tea. Whereas I rarely, if ever, forget things like that. For me, I only need to hear or learn once and I remember forever. Sticking to the same example, if I were to make a tea for someone that I'd only just met and then never spoke to them again for many years I'd still remember how they like it. It's quite amazing how me and my friend differ in the details we recall. Walking down a street, I am oblivious to everything (inferior Se). Someone could get stabbed right in front of me and I wouldn't notice. Yet if I show my friend a picture of someone for a second or two he'll be able to tell what earrings they're wearing even if it's a low quality pic; whereas even if I were to stare at that picture for hours and were asked to remember as much as possible, I couldn't even tell you 10% of the details in it! Anyway, went off on a tangent there. Probably nothing to with Fi


i am an INFP and my partner is an ISFP. your friend sounds more like an ISFP to me, but i think i speak for both of us when i say in general, we will resist advice unless we specifically ask you. my mom is an INTJ and often gives unwanted advice, and i just nod and say "ok", all the while knowing it's going in one ear and out the other. my mom is very intelligent and knowledgeable and i appreciate that, but she isn't knowledgeable in every single area of life, though she seems to think she is. i trust her in the areas i know she is knowledgeable, but everything else i take with a grain of salt. like when she gives relationship advice, it tends to be all wrong for me, and also she hasn't been in a relationship in years and is from a different generation, wants different things out of life than i, etc.

not sure about ISFPs, but i think their Ni can trip them up at times and make them fear change, whereas with INFPs, our Ne imagines so many possibilities, it can be difficult to know which one to choose. it may take some exploring before getting to the answer that "feels right" and coincides with our Fi values. i am not saying all IxFPs are like that, just that i think these are the things that can cause us to hold back/not get things done as quickly.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

ferroequinologist said:


> I think ISFPs give off that same air. I know I've had to deal with it my whole life, and there has been some discussion on the ISFP board about this. People seem to think we don't know what we are doing, when we do... I guess it's that Fi-ness. ;-)


I never, ever understood it until I met a certain friend - I thought she was ISFP at first but have come to realise she's actually INFP - and while I recognise that she's intelligent and sensible, she gives off such fragile vibes that all I want to do is sweep her up in my arms and protect her from the big bad world. Thank goodness I know better than that! But watching her is teaching me a lot about how the world probably sees me. 



> I don't think of it as advice in my mind. I consider it just offering my perspective--even if it sometimes sounds firm--that's just my weak thinking function, I'm guessing. Anyway, I don't like giving advice. And I don't care if someone listens to me or not. Sometimes it hurts to see people ignore what I said, only to see them crash, but for the most part, I'm almost happier if they don't listen. ;-) I do like to say what I would do, or how I see things, and sometimes I'll even offer straight-up advice, but with lots of caveats. I don't like giving advice. Did I say that? ;-)


I love giving advice, as long as both parties understand that I'm just tossing ideas around and offering my (very limited) perspective. I don't like it when people think I'm being more serious than I actually am, or if they want me to actually tell them what to do... that's way too much responsibility! And I drive myself crazy with the amount of times I start a sentence with "maybe" or "I believe" or "possibly" or "just my opinion, but...."! I keep telling myself I should cut back on it but I can't help but think of the possibility that I might be wrong, or that I might have misunderstood/misremembered something, or that something that seems to be common doesn't take into account the exceptions that _must_ exist...



mirrorghost said:


> my mom is an INTJ and often gives unwanted advice, and i just nod and say "ok", all the while knowing it's going in one ear and out the other. my mom is very intelligent and knowledgeable and i appreciate that, but she isn't knowledgeable in every single area of life, though she seems to think she is. i trust her in the areas i know she is knowledgeable, but everything else i take with a grain of salt. like when she gives relationship advice, it tends to be all wrong for me, and also she hasn't been in a relationship in years and is from a different generation, wants different things out of life than i, etc.


I was thinking about this when I was walking home before (yup that's me, post first and think later). A lot of the Je-types that I know are exactly like that: they're very certain in their knowledge and they think that they read people very well. And a lot of the time they're right. But they also have a terrible habit of misreading me and other Ji-doms (maybe also Ji-aux?). So that might also help to answer @nO_d3N1AL's question about why his IxFP friend has such a kneejerk reaction to him giving advice, and seems to be so stuck on "nobody understands me" - chances are he's had a lot of people very confidently tell him what's best for him, while completely misunderstanding him. We really do become wary after a while, unfortunately.



> *not sure about ISFPs, but i think their Ni can trip them up at times and make them fear change*, whereas with INFPs, our Ne imagines so many possibilities, it can be difficult to know which one to choose. it may take some exploring before getting to the answer that "feels right" and coincides with our Fi values. i am not saying all IxFPs are like that, just that i think these are the things that can cause us to hold back/not get things done as quickly.


My father's an ISFP and he is much less comfortable with change than me. He's said he never liked it much when he was younger, but that as he's gotten older he's learned to accept it as an inevitable part of life. I also wondered if it had anything to do with growing up in a very traditional, socially and politically conservative environment, but maybe it's just normal for younger ones?


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

ElliCat said:


> I love giving advice, as long as both parties understand that I'm just tossing ideas around and offering my (very limited) perspective. I don't like it when people think I'm being more serious than I actually am, or if they want me to actually tell them what to do... that's way too much responsibility! And I drive myself crazy with the amount of times I start a sentence with "maybe" or "I believe" or "possibly" or "just my opinion, but...."! I keep telling myself I should cut back on it but I can't help but think of the possibility that I might be wrong, or that I might have misunderstood/misremembered something, or that something that seems to be common doesn't take into account the exceptions that _must_ exist...


But see, that's not really giving "advice" like others give. You're doing what I do--offering your perspective. ;-)



I was thinking about this when I was walking home before (yup that's me, post first and think later). A lot of the Je-types that I know are exactly like that: they're very certain in their knowledge and they think that they read people very well. And a lot of the time they're right. But they also have a terrible habit of misreading me and other Ji-doms (maybe also Ji-aux?). So that might also help to answer @_nO_d3N1AL_'s question about why his IxFP friend has such a kneejerk reaction to him giving advice, and seems to be so stuck on "nobody understands me" - chances are he's had a lot of people very confidently tell him what's best for him, while completely misunderstanding him. We really do become wary after a while, unfortunately.

_



*not sure about ISFPs, but i think their Ni can trip them up at times and make them fear change*, whereas with INFPs, our Ne imagines so many possibilities, it can be difficult to know which one to choose. it may take some exploring before getting to the answer that "feels right" and coincides with our Fi values. i am not saying all IxFPs are like that, just that i think these are the things that can cause us to hold back/not get things done as quickly.

Click to expand...

_


> My father's an ISFP and he is much less comfortable with change than me. He's said he never liked it much when he was younger, but that as he's gotten older he's learned to accept it as an inevitable part of life. I also wondered if it had anything to do with growing up in a very traditional, socially and politically conservative environment, but maybe it's just normal for younger ones?


It's not so much "change" that I fear. It's the unknown of many potential outcomes, and trying to work through them to find the most likely. That open-endedness and the confusion. Change? I can handle. In fact, to be honest, I need variety. I need to shake things up on occasion. And there are some changes I don't fear, and welcome, including some that scare others. On the other hand, especially as I grow older, I am getting more--well... lazy... For instance, I hate flying now, especially with family. It's such a headache, and we have to do it so much. yuck. I hate the idea of moving. We've gathered too much junk through the years. I've also sort of settled on a wardrobe, and tend to buy the same clothes from Land's End catalog every year or so. I do mix up patterns and colors, though. ;-) But I'm a khaki, and polo shirt and button-up w/ button-down collars/Oxford shirt kind of guy--with my loafers. I used to wear Sperry Top siders almost exclusively, but switched to pennys, and mostly wear those now--and the most boring sneakers I can find when I must. But other things--food--I always order something different when eating out, even fast food--it's always a different burger or wrap or whatever is being offered. I can't stand a schedule, and most habits are _anethema_ to me. Not, mind you, that I don't try, but after a few months, it begins to become slowly more and more unendurable, and I have to shake things up. I've never been able to exercise regularly, because it's just so boring. So, I guess it depends on what it is, as to whether I can bear change or not. But honestly, I fear that the one thing my wife struggles with me the most is my changeableness. She's not the most reliable re: schedules, etc. either, so she sort of needs me, and I try--oh, how I try! But it never works... poor lady... Oh, and I'm one of those conservative people too, and grew up in a rather conservative environment, too... I bet if you looked closely, you'd see that the sorts of changes he doesn't like are those scary ones where we can't foresee the future, and other changes he's perfectly fine with. 

As to whether it's Ni or our POLR Ne, though. I don't know which. I call it just weak intuition, as I think it's a bit of both. For instance, if I am given time to let a problem percolate in the back of my mind, I can generally work through the unknowns and come out the other end with a solution--but I have to let it do it itself, without thinking about it. It's weird, but I learned this trick decades ago. Sleep on it is the best thing to do, and sometimes, it may take weeks, rather than hours.


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## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

nichya said:


> This leads to five roles:
> 
> 1. Novice
> non-situational recollection, decomposed recognition, analytical decision, monitoring awareness
> ...


I like that list. I think you say that Fi users kind of skip steps 1 thru 3 and go straight to the intuitive decision making process right away, even if they are not qualified to do so. We definitely -know- something even if we have no idea what's going on lol


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

RK LK said:


> I like that list. I think you say that Fi users kind of skip steps 1 thru 3 and go straight to the intuitive decision making process right away, even if they are not qualified to do so. We definitely -know- something even if we have no idea what's going on lol


Nuuu ) lol

Here:
. Expert
transcends reliance on rules, guidelines, and maxims
_"intuitive grasp of situations based on deep, tacit understanding"_
_has "vision of what is possible"_
uses "analytical approaches" in new situations or in case of problems

We usually have a deep, tacit understanding of ourselves which may lead to intuitive grasp of situations, which only shows up after mastering a skill in this example. You gain familiarity and comfort. It is not that we skip analytic reasoning but we just -know- and are experts of -self desires, dreams, what is good for us etc etc - that we don't go on a reasoning process that is explained step by step. We just -know-

makes sense?

Also in this model, the more expertise you have on a skill, the less mental load is on your brain while doing a task that requires that skill. It is now somewhat an autopilot. You don't even spend much energy as much as a learner or even a proficient as you handle the task intuitively.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

ferroequinologist said:


> But see, that's not really giving "advice" like others give. You're doing what I do--offering your perspective. ;-)


Yup, sorry, that would be me playing with the meaning of "advice" to suit my own perspective. >_> 




> Oh, and I'm one of those conservative people too, and grew up in a rather conservative environment, too... I bet if you looked closely, you'd see that the sorts of changes he doesn't like are *those scary ones where we can't foresee the future*, and other changes he's perfectly fine with.


I used his wording (it was from a bit of a shallow conversation so no time to flesh it out), but as soon as I read that I realised that those are _exactly_ the sorts of changes he doesn't like. If he's pretty sure of the outcome he's happy to change things around, and compared to my Si-heavy mother he's pretty wild, haha.  But I become more excited by thrusting myself into a situation where I'm not 100% certain of the outcome, and I think he's a bit confused by how I can be so comfortable with that.


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## mirrorghost (Sep 18, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> It's not so much "change" that I fear. It's the unknown of many potential outcomes, and trying to work through them to find the most likely. That open-endedness and the confusion. Change? I can handle. In fact, to be honest, I need variety. I need to shake things up on occasion.


my partner tends to fear the big changes, that's what i was speaking of, sorry if i wasn't clear enough  i was really not implying that ALL ISFPs are like that at all.  but he said he didn't fear change as much when he was younger! which makes sense, i notice there are areas in life where i feel i get more "security based" as i get older. i guess i see it as, a big change will be stressful but can improve things in the long run, which is seeing the big picture more, as i tend to do, and not focus on the details as much.



> As to whether it's Ni or our POLR Ne, though. I don't know which. I call it just weak intuition, as I think it's a bit of both. For instance, if I am given time to let a problem percolate in the back of my mind, I can generally work through the unknowns and come out the other end with a solution--but I have to let it do it itself, without thinking about it. It's weird, but I learned this trick decades ago. Sleep on it is the best thing to do, and sometimes, it may take weeks, rather than hours.


yeah that percolating thing sounds very Ni, so that makes sense! i guess maybe it could be a Ne vs. Ni preference more than anything.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Now that I have a better understanding of what Fi is, I'd like to clarify with some examples.

Any time there is an ideal way you'd like things but can't really explain why, would that be Fi? I have plenty of little "OCD ideals" on how I like things arranged or how things should be which are entirely subjective and idealistic. For example, insisting that at no point, any device with volume control is ever maxxed (e.g. speakers, phone etc.), wanting the icons on my taskbar or desktop to be arranged in a certain way otherwise it bothers me, refusing to play a video game unless I am confident I will play it to as close to 100% as possible (because I care about completion rate) - that sort of thing.

And what about feeling annoyed if something I like doesn't get the attention it deserves? I find this one interesting because my Fi-dom friend wants things he likes to be as unpopular as possible because he wants exclusivity - to feel like it was made for him and gets really annoyed when something he likes goes mainstream or he hears about other people enjoying it too (weird, right?!). Yet I'm the exact opposite - if I think something is good, I want it to get the credit I feel it deserves, otherwise it feels unjust and "wrong".


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## Verity3 (Nov 15, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Now that I have a better understanding of what Fi is, I'd like to clarify with some examples.
> 
> Any time there is an ideal way you'd like things but can't really explain why, would that be Fi? I have plenty of little "OCD ideals" on how I like things arranged or how things should be which are entirely subjective and idealistic. For example, insisting that at no point, any device with volume control is ever maxxed (e.g. speakers, phone etc.), wanting the icons on my taskbar or desktop to be arranged in a certain way otherwise it bothers me, refusing to play a video game unless I am confident I will play it to as close to 100% as possible (because I care about completion rate) - that sort of thing.
> 
> And what about feeling annoyed if something I like doesn't get the attention it deserves? I find this one interesting because my Fi-dom friend wants things he likes to be as unpopular as possible because he wants exclusivity - to feel like it was made for him and gets really annoyed when something he likes goes mainstream or he hears about other people enjoying it too (weird, right?!). Yet I'm the exact opposite - if I think something is good, I want it to get the credit I feel it deserves, otherwise it feels unjust and "wrong".


I don't know. I enjoy things like music whether it's popular or not. When I was younger I used to relish exclusivity more, but these days I want what's good to get recognition, like you said. What annoys me is when an artist's going mainstream changes the music to the same boring tripe that was already available. Especially when they feel the need to trash-talk their previous work which made them great. (*cough, cough* Charli XCX *COUGH*) That's not something I consider growth, but rather a loss. But if an artist can actually create something new and it strikes a chord with the masses, that's win-win!


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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Now that I have a better understanding of what Fi is, I'd like to clarify with some examples.
> 
> Any time there is an ideal way you'd like things but can't really explain why, would that be Fi? I have plenty of little "OCD ideals" on how I like things arranged or how things should be which are entirely subjective and idealistic. For example, insisting that at no point, any device with volume control is ever maxxed (e.g. speakers, phone etc.), wanting the icons on my taskbar or desktop to be arranged in a certain way otherwise it bothers me, refusing to play a video game unless I am confident I will play it to as close to 100% as possible (because I care about completion rate) - that sort of thing.
> 
> And what about feeling annoyed if something I like doesn't get the attention it deserves? I find this one interesting because my Fi-dom friend wants things he likes to be as unpopular as possible because he wants exclusivity - to feel like it was made for him and gets really annoyed when something he likes goes mainstream or he hears about other people enjoying it too (weird, right?!). Yet I'm the exact opposite - if I think something is good, I want it to get the credit I feel it deserves, otherwise it feels unjust and "wrong".


Every function can express itself so differently, man.... I like unknown music too, but only listening to that and hating when it goes popular seems just self absorbed and hipster like... Is he mature? I was like that in my 16, 17s...


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