# Blaming the victim



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

I know that there are not just black and white aspects to victims. The victim could have possibly provoked the abuser some how, but the abuser still has a choice, even if she/he has been hit, or abused. 

Just curious: Why is it so easy for some people to say "She let him hit her, because she stayed with him even though she knew better" How in any way is it her fault? 
I've been having this argument with this friend of mine, and I can't seem to help her understand my side. How would you approach someone like this who continues to blame any woman alive who doesn't leave a situation like this?


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

People like to blame the victim so they can think "It will never happen to me."

If you separate yourself from the victim, you can ensure your own illusion of safety persists.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

I don't think that things are really that black and white, when it comes to abuse. There are things that keeps people, men or women, from getting away of an abusive relationship. It can be fear, shame, lack of confidence and strength ad self-esteem... There are also some cases in which separation can affect more things, specially for those who are more dependent on their partners in terms of financial and living.

In the end, it's up to the victim to leave the abuser, but then in many cases, simply saying that the victim is at fault does not seem right.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

They don't know what it's like to be a victim and how these things happen really. They see it clear cut, someones abusing you, you just leave. But I'd say for hardcore abusers they usually isolate the person form family and friends and the most dangerous time for that person is when they try to leave, that's usually when most abuse victims are murdered.
I don't see fault in the victim any where other than they need help.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Well this issue surely isnt that black or white. There are way too many circumstances that could influence why a person makes a decision that they make. 

How about: Some of them can leave, have every opportunity to leave, but don't so it is their fault. While others, due to circumstance cannot thus they are not responsible?

Why can't both exist? 


Personally I'm not really one to feel sorry for people in abusive relationships(mind you I'm speaking from a first world american perspective). Why? Because I believe in choice. Where there is a will there is a way. They are way too many organizations designed to help women in situations like this for a person to stick it out. You can only try and save a person so many times before you give up. 

If someone abuses you, shame on them. But if you refuse offers to get you out of the situation and choose to go back for more abuse then shame on you. I've seen women literally come clawing back to someone who abused them because in their mind it was better to be with this person than to not be. Maybe we can chalk it up to self esteem, but at the end of the day, thats their responsibly too. 

And before anyone pulls the "you don't know what its like to be on the inside" card, stop your ass right there. I speak from experiences of seeing as a child _from_ the inside.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

AriesLilith said:


> I don't think that things are really that black and white, when it comes to abuse. There are things that keeps people, men or women, from getting away of an abusive relationship. It can be fear, shame, lack of confidence and strength ad self-esteem... There are also some cases in which separation can affect more things, specially for those who are more dependent on their partners in terms of financial and living.
> 
> In the end, it's up to the victim to leave the abuser, but then in many cases, simply saying that the victim is at fault does not seem right.


I agree. There is never any excuse for someone to abuse another human being. 

yes, sometimes the victim has power that is not being exercised that could help them escape the abusive situation, so they need to be empowered somehow to recognize the situation as abuse and find other ways to fulfill their own needs, and sometimes their needs might be distorted in some ways; but it is still not an excuse for them to be abused. They are not doing the abusing.


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## Echoe (Apr 23, 2012)

I feel like society can put too much focus on the victim and what they should do or should have done, potentially giving them a detrimental sense of accountability for what's happened. My campus has been combatting this; they've been putting up posters focusing on would-be abusive people and what they should and shouldn't do ("no means no"; "if she's ____, then you shouldn't ___," etc.)


ETA: I was mostly talking about victim blaming in general, not just in the context of relationships.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

chip said:


> I know that there are not just black and white aspects to victims. The victim could have possibly provoked the abuser some how, but the abuser still has a choice, even if she/he has been hit, or abused.
> 
> Just curious: Why is it so easy for some people to say "She let him hit her, because she stayed with him even though she knew better" How in any way is it her fault?
> I've been having this argument with this friend of mine, and I can't seem to help her understand my side. How would you approach someone like this who continues to blame any woman alive who doesn't leave a situation like this?


I think many people just don't understand how complicated the situation really is. It's easy to sit back and make assumptions about what's going on. There's usually many factors at play and they vary from situation to situation.

Often abuse doesn't start until after a major life change like the loss/gain of a job, marriage, or the birth of a child. Sometimes there may be genuine feelings of love for that person because situations often have good moments. Sometimes there's denial of how bad it is. Sometimes there's fear of safety or the safety of family/friends/pets. Financial worries, fear of stalking, fear of murder, lack of outside supports, lack of education or job experience, mental health issues, long time exposure to abuse (as through childhood), low self esteem, if the abuser has access to weapons, if the abuser has friends/family helping or contributing to the abuse, if the abuser has connections to law enforcement, if there's a lack of belief the abuse is taking place, if they've called police before and found little support, if they're embarrassed, and so on. There are all just some of the reasons a person might not be able to leave immediately.

Often times people plan for months or even years before they're ready to leave. If the abuser has basic knowledge of how to use google, it's very easy to find spyware, cell phone spyware, gsp tacking for cars - it's relatively simple to use this kind of stuff with no one knowing.

Often times when people leave they can only go so far. Many people can't afford to leave their province or state, and many have little money and no where to go except a temporary shelter. If kids are involved, the abuser could easily follow the child home after school to find out where the new home is. Often abusers use crazy-making tactics - getting a key made and leaving the door unlocked; moving furniture or items in the house; leaving strange items in or around the home - things that you know are happening, but are not enough to prove the abuser is doing it. It's not easy to quit a job that may be your only source of support (if the abused has a job), pull the kids out of school (if kids are involved), cut off contact from family and friends (if they have supports), and move to a new place. It takes resources, time, and support - and many people don't have these things.

Protection Orders can be a help, but they're really only a piece of paper. If someone wants to kill you, a Protection Order won't stop them. If you live in a smaller city or town, it's not going to be that hard to find someone. If someone wants to kidnap or injure your child to hurt you, it's not impossible that they could do it. 

Even when people have options, if they have low self esteem or have endured years of abuse, they may believe the messages they're being told - that no one would believe them, that they're worthless, that no one else would ever want them, that they deserve what's happening to them. This goes especially for people who witnessed or experienced childhood abuse, which many people in adult abusive relationships have.

When someone is thinking about or preparing to leave they have to be extremely careful and they have to take all of the above into account before they act. It's not as simple as walking out the door or filing charges. Often charges don't stick or sentences are extremely short. Protection Orders are not easy to get and again, are just a piece of paper. Their belongings may be searched every night and they may have to hide documents or phone numbers. They may not be able to take phone calls at home. They might know they're being followed. 

There situations are all extremely complicated. There is rarely a simple solution to get out of an abusive situation.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

I wouldn't blame a victim, I would just call them sick, just like I would call the aggressor sick.

They are both sick.


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## Pirate (Jan 2, 2013)

Everybody involved is to blame. Everybody is accountable for their actions, and the victims actions, or lack of, if they contributed to the development or continuation of the abusive relationship, do indeed place SOME of the blame with them. NOt all, not most, but some.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Mister Wolf said:


> I wouldn't blame a victim, I would just call them sick, just like I would call the aggressor sick.
> 
> They are both sick.


Define sick. I was with a man who strangled me and I called the police, but I stayed with him through it because I was in love. People are not sick, they just have human emotions that can be easily taken advantage of depending on circumstances, and as @sleepyhead mentioned, it's not always that simple to leave.


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## heaveninawildflower (Feb 5, 2012)

Ignorance blames the victim. 

One thing that can help is awareness...

Power and Control - Why women stay in abusive relationships -McHenry CountyTurning Point

National Coalition Against Domestic Violence


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## Pirate (Jan 2, 2013)

Ignorance only sees one side of an issue. Why, is ultimitely irrelivant. As they say; "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

No party is entirely innocent. Thats why its an abusive relationship, not a mugging or a kidnapping. I'm not blaming the victims for anything other than their part.

This is something that I have dealt with. Its not as if I'm looking in and critisizing something I've never experienced.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

chip said:


> How would you approach someone like this who continues to blame any woman alive who doesn't leave a situation like this?


This is honestly the most insightful video on the subject that I've come across, regarding why women go back to abusive men. 

The dude has a degree in psychology, is a trained counselor and is a self protection instructor.


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

There's invariably a "cycle of control" in IPV (intimate partner violence) cases. The best analogy to it I have is what faces people upon release from a very long stretch in prison. The abusee is often in a position where they have no access to funds because those are controlled by their abuser. Also, they often have had their familial and social support networks systematically obliterated. In that environment it's not easy to get up and leave. Where do you even leave to? Many IPV shelters needs abusees to have access to welfare benefits or proficiency in language etc. So a lot of IPV victims fall through the cracks. 

For those who have seen "The Shawshank Redemption", Brooks says he thinks of ways to violate his parole to go back to prison. Those who are institutionalised (and an abusive partnership is an institution), often do not know what to do when thrust out of the institution, which is often all they've ever known their entire adult life. IPV is very nuanced, variegated and will always have very specific facts. It's never as easy as "x is at fault, do y and you'll be hunky dory"...


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## TWN (Feb 16, 2012)

No such thing as provoking abuse; unless the "victim" is physically harming the "abuser".

You are responsible for your actions.


My mother taught me alot about abuse as a small child (she worked with battered women or a time in her career,and wanted me to be educated), and how it starts; and the one thing she always made clear was "no on will ever have a right to hit you if you have not hit them".

Abuse is wrong.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

chip said:


> Define sick. I was with a man who strangled me and I called the police, but I stayed with him through it because I was in love. People are not sick, they just have human emotions that can be easily taken advantage of depending on circumstances, and as @_sleepyhead_ mentioned, it's not always that simple to leave.


Sick was a harsh word, and you're first post didn't mention this was that personal for you. Staying and enabling something, is not without blame. It is like a car- that when sees someone pull out in front of them, chooses not to hit the brakes, or a car- when someones rides to close, decides to slam on the brakes.

We know that lashing out hurts others, and we know that repressing emotions instead of lashing out, numbs feelings and leaves people dead inside. Good people, that are dead inside, is just as bad... haven't you heard that quote that says "when good people do nothing, that is when evil gains a foothold?"

Both parties need to learn to properly express their emotions, at the minimum, through sublimation, which is to say, culturally appropriate things, like art.

Neither are appropriate. 

If you didn't know any better, then it would be different.

I realize this is an emotional topic. I realize it's hard to accept responsibility, to any degree, and I realize it feels like we are letting down ourselves, as well as bigger things like who knows, our gender, our parents, our friends if we admit anything at all.

But life is more than that. Life is about failing and standing up again. It sounds like a really difficult situation, and, hopefully both people learn their lesson.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

I think many times abuse builds up over time, so the abused person does not realize how bad things have gotten. Looking in from the outside, you see a picture of what is today, not was yesterday, so it is very easy to say this is horrible, why are you still sticking around? At first the abuser is awesome, the abused person often falls in love with that person. 

Over time maybe they "accidentally" hit or commit a small abuse because they were drunk, very angry, or any number of excuses. This is forgiven. As more time goes along, the cycle gets shorter and shorter, and the abuse grows, the "accidents" become more frequent and more abusive. 

The abused person stays because they love this person, and since they have forgiven them in the past, it is easier to forgive them again the next time. Since they see this behavior on a more and more frequent basis, it becomes normal to them. If the abused person does not have a great group of friends and family to tell them this is bad, this can go on for an extended period of time before it gets so bad that someone from the outside or the abused person finally realizes that it is time to get out.

So, is the abused person at fault? Yes and no. Yes everyone should respect themselves enough to say this is bad and I need to get out, but many of these people are so depressed that they think this relationship is better than nothing, no one else would want me. But if no one else tells them that they are worth anything, they will continue in this pattern until something major enough happens to break the cycle.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

chip said:


> because she stayed with him even though she knew better" How in any way is it her fault?


Sorry I won't quote or publish here any sources but I've done my homework, you can find lots of research about this.

But besides books and studies I have personal experience, not only first hand but also friends working in the field of laws, justice dept and psychology. The sad truth is there are complex situations where the "victim" tells only one version of the story, another problems is the recursive reality of some people always telling others who to hate: who is good and who is evil. I'm being careful with my words, this is a fact related to manipulation and still choosing my words gets me into trouble.

Another sad problem is (regarding my friends, as witnesses) well, the many, soo many cases where women in my country complain about the husbands only to visit them later of asking them for a come back. Worst than that are the interventions or therapy where many of those same cases jump right onto the "his fault, he did this and that to me". So yes I'm talking about gender but not as "every woman is like this" no! I'm talking about your question, experience and proof related to those people who are of the same gender. Very difficult for some to understand how I'm addressing this.

There are plenty of books and the reality is pretty sad. Lucky me my sources include women so they tell me themselves "_I hate XX because she complained, said he did this and that but still she looks for him_". Sure it happens o men too, but that's another story.

Many circles of abuse include loving the abuser, also some modern discussions talk about the victim being the hunter: choosing their own abuser. I will close my post with my personal experiences... some of them include women insisting on changing the already not compatible or troubled partner. And one of the examples include one EXGF who said I was violent, evil etc... but still she pursued me for 3.5 years (stalking) saying she loved me and wanting to have my children... Sure she was asked "if he is too evil why do you try to comeback with him?" she finally got pregnant and now is somebody else problem.


If you were patient enough to reach this point: seriously *I don't understand it*. I've been discussing similar matters with a dear female friend, she has very high education, higher than me in many aspects. We discussed our romantic past (relationships) and sure I have sad and humiliating stories, she told me hers. 

We both suffered
We both received diff and similar kinds of abuse (doesn't take a bullet to call it abuse)
We both had terrible fights
We both had comebacks
We both suffered broken promises
We both gave second chances

The difference is I left after trying and those troubled relationships lasted very little after so much problems. In her case she was there for quite long. So she didn't like it when I pointed out how long she was there even with all the abuses she recently talked about... mine was a diff story, I didn't stay there. *Some people walk away from problems, some had a diff education and stay there*.


Just my opinion. SADLY this is fertile ground for many haters that will try to turn this into a gender based discussion (aka men are evil).



Oh, and I know two females (one of them my EXGF) who were told by A FEW (NOT ONE) therapist to NOT COME BACK because they didn't show interest on changing.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

Mister Wolf said:


> Sick was a harsh word, and you're first post didn't mention this was that personal for you. Staying and enabling something, is not without blame. It is like a car- that when sees someone pull out in front of them, chooses not to hit the brakes, or a car- when someones rides to close, decides to slam on the brakes.


Except in this case there's a personal relationship, there could be kids involved, and there could be many other factors than there are with a random car. 



> We know that lashing out hurts others, and we know that repressing emotions instead of lashing out, numbs feelings and leaves people dead inside. Good people, that are dead inside, is just as bad... haven't you heard that quote that says "when good people do nothing, that is when evil gains a foothold?"
> 
> Both parties need to learn to properly express their emotions, at the minimum, through sublimation, which is to say, culturally appropriate things, like art.
> 
> Neither are appropriate.


It appears you're comparing the act of withholding emotions in an abusive relationship to the act of abuse in an abusive relationship. The problem is they aren't comparable. 

Often times expressing emotions in an abusive relationship is what leads to more abuse. In many physical violent relationships there is never a correct answer, no matter what you say. An abuser could ask the same question every day and you could give a different answer every time and still get the exact same reaction. 

Abusers can change - I truly believe that and I've seen it happen. But it takes many meany years and a lot of hard work looking at your own behaviours. It's rare that people in abusive relationships actually wish to take those steps because most don't want to look at how their behaviour is inappropriate. It seems easier to put the blame on others and stay angry with them.



> If you didn't know any better, then it would be different.


How do you determine if someone "knows better"? How do you know what their life experiences are? How do you know what the abuser has said or done? 



> I realize this is an emotional topic. I realize it's hard to accept responsibility, to any degree, and I realize it feels like we are letting down ourselves, as well as bigger things like who knows, our gender, our parents, our friends if we admit anything at all.
> 
> But life is more than that. Life is about failing and standing up again. It sounds like a really difficult situation, and, hopefully both people learn their lesson.


I just don't think there's any way that you can say the person being abused is someone responsible for the actions of an abuser. Sometimes staying in position of enabler is the only sure-way you have to know you won't be killed - this still does not ever make it the responsibility of the abused to stop the abuse.

In all likeliness, they will eventually have to be the ones to stop it or be killed - but I have no right to tell someone else when the right or safest time to make that move might be.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

chip said:


> That's because when I tell people about it, I get spit on or told I'm a liar. I was manipulated many times with suicide from him. He has mental problems and he is a product of incest. I don't know if that is why he has mental problems but I have read that people who are inbred, do have a tendency to experience emotional and mental troubles. He was taking anti depressants and adhd medication and he turned into a different person at that point but it's still his fault. He said he blacked out but I don't believe that ,because five minutes later, he was confessing to the police officers that he choked me and wanted to die. His story changed after we broke up and he started dating someone else. I'm sure later down the road he might finally admit to it. He's an unhealthy Enfj and he feels guilt like stabbing knives so I hope for his and his gf's sake, he does admit to it like a man.


Forgiveness is hard. Good night


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Mister Wolf said:


> Forgiveness is hard. Good night


I think forgiveness is stupid. You should select who you forgive. I can't forgive Hitler. I sure as hell can't forgive my abuser.


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## Ramysa (Mar 22, 2012)

Well, theoretically, by not leaving the relationship she's practically "teaching" him that he has nothing to lose and that his behavior is part of a routine , therefore soon to become normality. My opinion is that , in a relationship, as u grow to know eachother u "set rules" .. like.. stuff u's never put up with or.. what u like/dislike etc. And when things don't go as you would want them to , then yeah, u need to go. The thing is that some persons are having different reasons to stay. I had a friend with a child that I was trying to convince to leave the bastard she was with , but she wouldn't bcz she had a child (not his) and he was proving for them . Her reason was " i could never provide so much for my child, on my own" but she never tooked in count the psychological torment that she was punting that kid through when seeing her mother getting beat up. Anyway, no matter what the reasons are is true that no one has the right to treat somebody like that. Your friend is right in a way, the victim is to blame.* Not* abt being abused, but abt not leaving. The blame of abusing is of course in the hands of the abuser. Dunno if i make much sense (i do in my head  ) , I'm pretty tired ... Sorry... :d


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Ramysa said:


> Well, theoretically, by not leaving the relationship she's practically "teaching" him that he has nothing to lose and that his behavior is part of a routine , therefore soon to become normality. My opinion is that , in a relationship, as u grow to know eachother u "set rules" .. like.. stuff u's never put up with or.. what u like/dislike etc. And when things don't go as you would want them to , then yeah, u need to go. The thing is that some persons are having different reasons to stay. I had a friend with a child that I was trying to convince to leave the bastard she was with , but she wouldn't bcz she had a child (not his) and he was proving for them . Her reason was " i could never provide so much for my child, on my own" but she never tooked in count the psychological torment that she was punting that kid through when seeing her mother getting beat up. Anyway, no matter what the reasons are is true that no one has the right to treat somebody like that. Your friend is right in a way, the victim is to blame.* Not* abt being abused, but abt not leaving. The blame of abusing is of course in the hands of the abuser. Dunno if i make much sense (i do in my head  ) , I'm pretty tired ... Sorry... :d



The victim is not at fault for not leaving if she is staying under the circumstances. We should not be blamed for not being equipped in life, and that victim should not be considered weak, either. I'm not weak for loving someone who abused me and I'm not at fault because I cannot help how I feel. And going to an abuse shelter was not easy for me. To finally admit that I need to go and never ever being homeless in my entire life. It was very difficult. Women should be praised for taking the first step of wanting out, not blamed for not leaving. That is the last thing they need. Then they'll feel even more like a failure, and feel like they will never be strong enough go to on their own. People who go through that are in a very fragile state of mind. You should treat them like a flower. They already get enough blame from their abuser. It's time to accept that human beings fail in life.


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## Ramysa (Mar 22, 2012)

chip said:


> The victim is not at fault for not leaving if she is staying under the circumstances. We should not be blamed for not being equipped in life, and that victim should not be considered weak, either. I'm not weak for loving someone who abused me and I'm not at fault because I cannot help how I feel. And going to an abuse shelter was not easy for me. To finally admit that I need to go and never ever being homeless in my entire life. It was very difficult. Women should be praised for taking the first step of wanting out, not blamed for not leaving. That is the last thing they need. Then they'll feel even more like a failure, and feel like they will never be strong enough go to on their own. People who go through that are in a very fragile state of mind. You should treat them like a flower. They already get enough blame from their abuser. It's time to accept that human beings fail in life.


oooohh.. I think u got me wrong. I understand your position but I think that it's all a matter of choice. Women/Men that are abused in a relationships should find the power to stand up and leave. U cannot accept the situation. I know there is a lot of manipulation in situations like that and not only, but one should never indulge . At least that's my opinion. By the way, my friend was making it just fine on her own, she didn't needed him but she liked the comfort . Also, she is a very good looking, kind woman, she could've found better . 

Ps. Yeah, I gotta admit it takes a lotta gots to leave , especially in the conditions u describe . It's even harder to start over , but all that makes u strong and the experience u gain helps u choose better in the future  . Good for u!


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Ramysa said:


> oooohh.. I think u got me wrong. I understand your position but I think that it's all a matter of choice. Women/Men that are abused in a relationships should find the power to stand up and leave. U cannot accept the situation. I know there is a lot of manipulation in situations like that and not only, but one should never indulge . At least that's my opinion. By the way, my friend was making it just fine on her own, she didn't needed him but she liked the comfort . Also, she is a very good looking, kind woman, she could've found better .


I don't consider it indulging. It's not like eating candy or having sex. You make a commitment with a person or you are psychologically controlled. It's not that simple as just wanting to be with the person for comfort.


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## Ramysa (Mar 22, 2012)

chip said:


> I don't consider it indulging. It's not like eating candy or having sex. You make a commitment with a person or you are psychologically controlled. It's not that simple as just wanting to be with the person for comfort.


 It might be true, I have no experience in the matter, I'm just saying my opinion from a theoretical point of view  . I'm not trying to upset u or anything


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Ramysa said:


> It might be true, I have no experience in the matter, I'm just saying my opinion from a theoretical point of view  . I'm not trying to upset u or anything


I'm a bit sensitive from someone calling me weak earlier tonight. All of these abusive thoughts flooded my head and I felt a bit helpless like it was happening all over again. Maybe you understand why I am so sensitive atm?


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

As a victim of a long-term abusive relationship, I think that we need to at some point blame the victim as well as the abuser. Not chastise them, but make them aware that they are responsible for their own well-being and they have failed in some way to take that responsibility. I made a conscious choice to be with someone who was abusing me, and I needed to realize that it was the wrong choice. Otherwise I might have gotten right back into it, either with him or another person. I didn't value myself enough to avoid the situation, and that was a problem with me, not him. His problems are none of my concern.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

devoid said:


> As a victim of a long-term abusive relationship, I think that we need to at some point blame the victim as well as the abuser. Not chastise them, but make them aware that they are responsible for their own well-being and they have failed in some way to take that responsibility. I made a conscious choice to be with someone who was abusing me, and I needed to realize that it was the wrong choice. Otherwise I might have gotten right back into it, either with him or another person. I didn't value myself enough to avoid the situation, and that was a problem with me, not him. His problems are none of my concern.


Hey, humans fail, it's a part of life but I don't think we deserve to be blamed for it. We deserve to be told that it was wrong, but that isn't blaming us, that is blaming our decisions that we can change. We can't change who we are, though.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

chip said:


> Hey, humans fail, it's a part of life but I don't think we deserve to be blamed for it. We deserve to be told that it was wrong, but that isn't blaming us, that is blaming our decisions that we can change. We can't change who we are, though.


How is blaming your decisions not blaming you? Are you saying that you have no control over the decisions you make? In that case, neither does your abuser.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

devoid said:


> How is blaming your decisions not blaming you? Are you saying that you have no control over the decisions you make? In that case, neither does your abuser.


Under certain circumstances, it's too hard to leave. You don't point the finger anyway, you teach. Teaching is not blaming.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

chip said:


> Under certain circumstances, it's too hard to leave. You don't point the finger anyway, you teach. Teaching is not blaming.


It sounds like you're not interested in learning.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

devoid said:


> It sounds like you're not interested in learning.


Teaching and blaming are two different things. I've learned from advocates, and group therapies about what you should do in an abusive relationship and how to protect yourself after. I've been through it all, and everyone learns differently anyway so you can learn your way all you want. I am different. I do not deserve to be blamed for what I've done, especially since they are mistakes in my past. I'd rather not be taught by someone who agrees with victim blaming, sorry.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

chip said:


> Teaching and blaming are two different things. I've learned from advocates, and group therapies about what you should do in an abusive relationship and how to protect yourself after. I've been through it all, and everyone learns differently anyway so you can learn your way all you want. I am different. I do not deserve to be blamed for what I've done, especially since they are mistakes in my past. I'd rather not be taught by someone who agrees with victim blaming, sorry.


You do not deserve to be faulted for being abused. But you should know that you did the wrong thing by keeping yourself in that situation. How else can you make the right choice the next time you're in trouble? When two people participate in a relationship, no matter the nature, it is both parties' responsibility to take care of their own well-being. I don't care what your therapists say. You can't go on in life expecting that everything bad that happens to you is 100% the other person's fault. Take control of your life.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

devoid said:


> You do not deserve to be faulted for being abused. But you should know that you did the wrong thing by keeping yourself in that situation. How else can you make the right choice the next time you're in trouble? When two people participate in a relationship, no matter the nature, it is both parties' responsibility to take care of their own well-being. I don't care what your therapists say. You can't go on in life expecting that everything bad that happens to you is 100% the other person's fault. Take control of your life.


Who are you to tell me to take control of my life? Do you even know what struggles I have had to face? And further more, if you want to debate with me, go to the debate thread and stop picking my posts apart. Did I ever say everything that happens to me is someone else's fault? I said that my ex strangling me was his fault, and I know that being with him was wrong, no shit. But I also don't deserve to be blamed for it, or told "Take control of your life" Have some empathy and compassion.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

@devoid 
Your user name suits you because you are devoid of having any empathy for victims. Of course you don't agree with my therapists. What kind of therapy blames anyone for their traumatic life experiences? Good god, maybe you could get some perspective.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

"
Why women stay in abusive relationships is the wrong question. The questions we should be asking are: Why do men terrorize their partners? Why does the community allow battering to continue? How can we be helpful to women in the process of leaving? A common mistake in understanding domestic violence is to scrutinize the survivor and avoid looking at the perpetrator. People believe that if battered women REALLY wanted to leave they could just get up and go. Many people overlook the environmental barriers that prevent women from leaving and too often focus on psychological "characteristics" of women instead. Although men’s violence is the crucial question, many people wonder why women stay – and advocates of battered women have made the following suggestions. 
Some battered women are held prisoner in their own homes. Assailants use psychological terrorism and abuse to break down the victims' will to resist and bring them under control. A worthwhile model is the "Stockholm Syndrome", which describes how those who are taken hostage begin to identify with, become attached to, and take the side of their captors as survival reactions to life-threatening situations. Batterers employ knowledge gained in an intimate relationship to attack the woman's spirit, her sense of self worth and thus her ability to resist. Sexual abuse and domination are particularly degrading to the spirit and weaken the capacity to resist. Torture and murder of pets - particularly those special to the woman - is also not unusual. ​
Some battered women stay because they believe that therapy will help their batterers stop being violent. Having the assailant enter counseling bolsters the woman's hope about the relationship: if he can be cured, she reasons (and her reasoning is supported by the therapist who is doing the counseling, who she sees as the expert), then the violence will end and their relationship can resume. All women want the violence to end; many do not want the relationship to end. 
Some battered women are forced to stay because they can't afford justice. Getting a personal protection or restraining order may require getting a lawyer -- which usually requires money. Legal aid offices may not necessarily handle divorce, and many do not have the resources to handle divorce and custody cases when domestic violence is involved. Major cuts to legal services have hindered the limited options for legal redress. The assailant may have told her that he will use his income to hire a more skilled attorney who will take her children.
Battered women sometimes stay for their children, so their abusive partner will not get custody. Some survivors reason that they will sacrifice themselves so their children can have a father, good schools, a safe neighborhood or have financial security. 
Some battered women stay because there is no place for them to go. Shelters do not exist everywhere or are full. Their funding is in constant danger, vulnerable to attacks from groups believing they are "destroying the family" or are "anti-male." Women face discrimination in the rental market and landlords are often reluctant to rent to formerly battered women, believing that their assailant will show up and cause property damage or physical harm. The assailant often deliberately sabotages his partner's credit rating (or prevents her from establishing one at all). 
Some battered women stay because they are not given accurate information about battering. They are told by professionals, family, friends and the batterer that alcohol or drugs causes battering. They are told that they are codependent or enable his behavior – if they would change, then their assailants would. Women then endlessly attempt to modify their behavior only to watch the violence worsen and find themselves blamed for not trying hard enough.
Some battered women stay because they believe what most people in our society think about battered women: they imagine or exaggerate the violence; they provoke or are to blame for the violence; they all come from poor, uneducated, or minority backgrounds; their partner just has a problem controlling his anger or stress or; unemployment problems have caused the battering. If the woman goes for help to family, friends or professionals who believe these myths, they will suggest ideas that will not work and make it harder for her to escape.
Some battered women stay because their assailants deliberately and systematically isolate them from support. People who are in trouble need the aid of family, friends, co workers and professionals to weather the crisis and make the best decisions for themselves. Many assailants are extremely jealous and possessive; they constantly accuse their partners of affairs, demand that their partner speak to no one, and accuse them of infidelity every time they do so. Assailants force their partner to account for every minute of their time. One assailant marked the tires of his girlfriend's car to monitor her use of it. Another nailed the windows shut and put a lock on the outside of the door. Many take car keys, disable cars, and unplug or break telephones. Assailants methodically drive friends and family away. 
Some battered women stay because they believe in love and they still love their partners. This is hard for people who have not been battered to understand. However, many people have been in difficult relationships (or jobs) they that knew they should leave, but couldn't, or needed time to be able to depart. Love is glorified in our culture. Popular songs and movies reinforce the idea that love is the most important thing in life and people (especially women) should do anything for it. Women may love their partners, and at the same time hate their violent and abusive actions. Battered women need to be reminded that she does not have to stop loving her assailant in order to leave. Some women may be troubled about making it on their own and being lonely. Leaving a batterer may mean enduring feelings of grief and loss from abandoning a circle of friends, family, a neighborhood and a community. 
Some battered women stay because they believe what their assailant is telling them: 
· "You're crazy and stupid. No one will believe you." Or, "You're the one that's sick. You need help. You're hysterical." 
· "I know the judge; he won't put me in jail." Or, "The police will never arrest me." 
· "If you leave, I'll get custody because you'll have abandoned me and the kids." 
· "If you leave, I'll find you and kill you. I'll kill your family, your kids, and your pets. You'll never escape me." 
Assailants deliberately supply their partners with false information about the civil or criminal justice system. At the same time, assailants often play on their partners concern for their well being through threats of suicide or exaggerating the devastating effects of prison. (In fact, convictions are rare, and usually for misdemeanors that carry a sentence of counseling). Assailants may tell their partners that shelters are lesbian recruiting stations, staffed by lesbians, and a place where she will be attacked by lesbians or become one. 
Some battered women stay because they are addicted and their addiction prevents them from taking action. Their assailant encourages or coerces them into using alcohol or drugs, and/or sabotages recovery by preventing her from going to meetings. Some women consume alcohol or other drugs to numb the psychic, emotional or physical pain caused by the violence. Doctors may prescribe tranquilizers for a battered woman's "nerves". Few women know or are told that minor tranquilizers can be seriously and quickly addictive. It makes the woman less able to act on her own behalf and it gives the assailant a handy tool for discrediting and blaming her. 
Some battered women are trapped in battering relationships because of sexism. Barbara Hart states: "The most likely predictor of whether a battered woman will permanently separate from her abuser is whether she has the economic resources to survive without him." Women do not have economic resources equal to or approaching men. Nearly one half of all female headed households with children live in poverty, as compared with only 8% of male headed households. The majority of African American and Latina female headed households live at or below the poverty level. Many battered women cannot find a job and assailants can damage her employment record by harassing her at work causing excessive lateness and absenteeism. 
Further, many battered women do leave. Almost all battered women try to leave at some point. For battered women who leave, the violence may just be beginning. Batterers escalate their violence when a woman tries to leave or show signs of independence. They may try to coerce her into reconciliation or retaliate for the battered women's perceived rejection or abandonment of the batterer. Men who believe they "own" their female partners view her departure as an ultimate betrayal which justifies retaliation. Because leaving may be dangerous does not mean that battered women should stay. Cohabiting with the batterer is highly dangerous both as violence usually increases in frequency and severity over time, and as a batterer may engage in preemptive strikes, fearing abandonment or anticipating separation. Although leaving may pose additional hazards, at least in the short run, the research data and the experience of advocates for battered women demonstrate that ultimately a battered woman can best achieve safety and freedom apart from the batterer. Leaving will require strategic planning and legal intervention to avert separation violence and to safeguard survivors and their children. "​


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## Falling Leaves (Aug 18, 2011)

@_chip_.

I believe that's game, set and match.

One thing to add to the part about finding love - abusers will often completely trash the victims self-esteem, all whilst using the line "I'm the only one who can love you". Inevitably, this makes the abused feel as though the only place they can find the love they so desperately crave is with the abuser. It sets up a Hobson's choice: Live a life of being unwanted, or a life of being wanted whilst the shit is being kicked out of you.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Falling Leaves said:


> @_chip_.
> 
> I believe that's game, set and match.
> 
> One thing to add to the part about finding love - abusers will often completely trash the victims self-esteem, all whilst using the line "I'm the only one who can love you". Inevitably, this makes the abused feel as though the only place they can find the love they so desperately crave is with the abuser. It sets up a Hobson's choice: Live a life of being unwanted, or a life of being wanted whilst the shit is being kicked out of you.


I agree. There are so many reasons why women stay, and even men. Men seem to stay with abusive women because of society. Society doesn't take the men very seriously, they think "Oh you let a girl beat you up" Basically. I hate that. My ex held a knife to his wrist and started making cutting motions. That left me traumatized so after he went to jail, I asked for rent money, asked for him to stay with me, to help us both get past it and get help and I felt like he left me high and dry, with three animals to feed with a poor paying job. I felt alone, scared, my family lived 5 states away from me. I had no one but him. I should not be blamed for the mistakes I made. I was taught, however, what to do if it ever happens again. I also did the right thing by calling the police on him. After that, I had two jobs, lived in a shelter, saved up 700 dollars and moved across the country to a shelter, to be closer to my now fiance. Sorry for being so personal but people who tell me to get control of my life are wrong. If I had no control, I would still be with my ex or I would be dead! 

People need to take their black and white glasses off.


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## Falling Leaves (Aug 18, 2011)

chip said:


> People need to take their black and white glasses off.


Abso-fucking-lutely. 

I am not going to sit here and try and make out that the responsibility to get out of the relationship falls on anybody else but the victim, male _or_ female. The truth of the matter is that they are the only ones who can do it; I for one hope to never have a friend in such a position because, other than establishing that I will be there for them _no matter what_, there is absolutely nothing I can say or do. 

Having said that however, the situation is never as easy as packing your things, walking out and booking yourself into a fancy hotel until you 'sort your life out'. There is a whole melting pot of potential factors, none of which can ever be singled out and used for every battered person out there - to attempt to do so would demonstrate a complete lack of understanding and empathy. 

People shouldn't confuse putting *responsibility* on the victim with _*blame*_. They are two entirely different entities. 

Furthermore, I believe our 'well why doesn't (s)he just leave?' mentality is damaging. Firstly, it draws attention from the person who really is to blame, i.e. the abuser, and in a way even excuses his/her actions (albeit unintentionally). Secondly, there is absolutely nothing you can say to the victim which they haven't already told themselves on some level - for someone whose self esteem has been trashed, do you think blaming them for what happened really helps the situation? Abusers _already_ blame their actions entirely on the victim; by saying 'herpy deerrrp derrr, if you don't like it, leave' what point are you trying to make exactly?

/soapbox.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Falling Leaves said:


> Abso-fucking-lutely.
> 
> I am not going to sit here and try and make out that the responsibility to get out of the relationship falls on anybody else but the victim, male _or_ female. The truth of the matter is that they are the only ones who can do it; I for one hope to never have a friend in such a position because, other than establishing that I will be there for them _no matter what_, there is absolutely nothing I can say or do.
> 
> ...


My fiance's dad called me sexist because he said "Women are stupid who don't leave" I said, there are reasons why. I told him "Because men brain wash women" That was one example and he used it against me and said "That is the most sexist thing you've ever said to me" He's an abuser, though so ofc he's going to do that. Figures. Next time anyone tells me it's my fault or blames me I am going to say "Do you really think blaming someone who was choked is a good idea? Don't you think I've already told myself this? You are being highly inappropriate and now I am going to ignore your stupidity." Not directed at anyone on here, though, but irl.


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## heaveninawildflower (Feb 5, 2012)

Awareness and understanding helps....Ignorance and apathy hurts.

What Friends Should Know About Domestic Violence | The People's Law Library

Why women blame other women for being victims of domestic violence | Jacksonville


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## Eos_Machai (Feb 3, 2013)

I would recommend this excellent cartoon strip about the mechanisms of domestic abuse.


*I Think About Whitney / Top Shelf 2.0*


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Eos_Machai said:


> I would recommend this excellent cartoon strip about the mechanisms of domestic abuse.
> 
> 
> *I Think About Whitney / Top Shelf 2.0*


That was so retarded yet refreshing. I only say retarded because she got back with him later lols


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## Ramysa (Mar 22, 2012)

chip said:


> I'm a bit sensitive from someone calling me weak earlier tonight. All of these abusive thoughts flooded my head and I felt a bit helpless like it was happening all over again. Maybe you understand why I am so sensitive atm?



Of course I do.  No worries


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## Rakshasa (May 26, 2012)

Blame is a strange word. I will write my view then decide if 'blame' is appropriate.

People can make choices. People can choose to avoid certain circumstances. So whenever a person willfully enters a circumstance where they should know that there is a significant amount of risk, they are responsible for themselves. If a person is forced into such a situation they bear no responsibility.

Not blame, then. Respect. I respect their decision, even if I think it's stupid.

Of course there is never an excuse for abusing someone. The abuser is still an abhorrent creature, one that should be avoided.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

chip said:


> How would you approach someone like this who continues to blame any woman alive who doesn't leave a situation like this?


...but if you're in an abusive situation and you don't leave, then that IS your fault for staying in a hostile environment.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Rakshasa said:


> People can make choices. People can choose to avoid certain circumstances. So whenever a person willfully enters a circumstance where they should know that there is a significant amount of risk, they are responsible for themselves. If a person is forced into such a situation they bear no responsibility.
> 
> Not blame, then. Respect. I respect their decision, even if I think it's stupid.
> 
> Of course there is never an excuse for abusing someone. The abuser is still an abhorrent creature, one that should be avoided.


Contribute is a better word than blame, when it come to victims of abuse who return IMO. 

I think the problem is the 'folk' understanding that our culture has about how we make decisions. Social psychology, cognitive psychology, evolutionary psychology, comparative psychology etc shows us that many variables influence our decision other than our will.

'Folk psychology' says that every poor decision is a failure of personal will, or voluntary stupidity. Like @*Shinji Mimura* seems to believe.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

As some already said already, abusive relationships are not really that simple. Sometimes, it was a great relationship in which love developed strongly before abuse starts. Then when it happens, it starts to hurt the one who is abused, yet it's not as simple as "hey you hit me, so let's just end this relationship and special bond and throw everything away!". It was never easy to just abandon everything that was there and what could have been, even thought red signs of danger starts to appear.

Also, there are issues in the abused one that might not be fully conscious, making him/her attracting abuser types even if he/she doesn't want to. One of the more frequent patterns I guess, is that the abused one lacks of self-esteem, and when he/she meets the abuser, the abuser at first makes him/her feels really special, giving the kind of attention that can't be gotten anywhere else (the abused one can lack of luck in meeting people who truly cares for him/her), which makes the abused one feels less lonely and cannot give it up, even thought later he/she suffers from the abuse.
Can we really blame the abused one for the lack of self-esteem? It's not really their fault that they feel that way, but it certainly makes it harder to break free from this cycle.

So sure, in the end, it's up to the abused ones to break free so that they are also responsible for letting it continue. But then it's really not that simple.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

chip said:


> I know that there are not just black and white aspects to victims. The victim could have possibly provoked the abuser some how, but the abuser still has a choice, even if she/he has been hit, or abused.
> 
> Just curious: Why is it so easy for some people to say "She let him hit her, because she stayed with him even though she knew better" How in any way is it her fault?
> I've been having this argument with this friend of mine, and I can't seem to help her understand my side. How would you approach someone like this who continues to blame any woman alive who doesn't leave a situation like this?


I would stop being friends with a victim-blamer, without further discussion. It's a dealbreaker. Such a person clearly has no idea what it is actually like to be in such a situation, and there is some part of me that wants her to experience it just so she will know the exact mental and emotional state that makes a person feel trapped. 

Leaving can be more dangerous than staying. People get killed that way, quite commonly, and even if there weren't such a fear, there is almost always some other kind of attachment involved that comes from being systematically brainwashed by the abuser, being isolated, and having one's self-esteem shattered. At the end of the process, the victim is completely dependent on the abuser and cannot easily flee because the abuser has intentionally caused the victim to feel incompetent and has taken away all of the victim's means of support. Usually, it happens so gradually that the victim doesn't notice until s/he is already trapped. It might start with things that are questionable, but not quite abusive. The abuser might shout during a fight, or call the victim a name, and then apologize and promise it will never happen again. The next time, the abuser might throw something or punch a wall. This is an implied threat of physical violence, but it might not cross the line that makes the victim feel that it is abusive or that leaving is justified. 

The first time the abuser uses actual violence, the victim has already established a pattern of acceptance, and has likely already become so emotionally invested in the relationship that the first instinct is to fix the problem, and treat the abuser like someone who is troubled and needs help. The abuser might seem vulnerable to the victim, and the victim will feel like the right thing to do is to try to get the abuser through whatever past trauma has made him/her so unstable, or whatever present issues are making him/her behave in this unusual way. But it won't work, and the victim will keep trying, feeling like it is a personal failure every time the abuser attacks. The victim tells herself/himself that s/he can handle it, because s/he is being a good person.

Then, the abuser gets increasingly controlling. The victim loses all of the friends and family s/he relied on for emotional support. S/he is alienated gradually, maybe without consciously noticing. Maybe the abuser doesn't like the victim's friends and is more likely to hurt the victim after the victim has had contact with them, or maybe the abuser behaves rudely toward the friends and family so they will be driven away. However it happens, the victim is alone, and the abuser ends up being the victim's only source of human connection. Once that happens, the abuser might criticize the victim for saying certain things, buying certain things, wearing certain things, having certain hobbies, and in order to avoid the abuser's wrath, the victim gives up her/his identity and everything that makes her/him feel powerful, skilled or independent. After this has gone on for a while, the victim feels like s/he is stupid, isn't good at anything, and isn't worth anything.

It is hard to leave your only source of connection when you have been subtly coerced into giving up everything that makes you feel confident and self-sufficient. 

If there are children involved, the situation is even more complicated, because leaving the abuser often means that the children will be given over to the abuser for unsupervised visitation, where the abuser can threaten them and use them to hurt the victim. The abuser will often use the court system to cause further suffering to the victim.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Shinji Mimura said:


> ...but if you're in an abusive situation and you don't leave, then that IS your fault for staying in a hostile environment.


Yes, I do agree with you but there is no need to blame me or anyone for it. Not saying you are. It does not help at all and it shouldn't even be focused on. What should be focused on is what the abuser does.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

devoid said:


> You do not deserve to be faulted for being abused. But you should know that you did the wrong thing by keeping yourself in that situation. How else can you make the right choice the next time you're in trouble? When two people participate in a relationship, no matter the nature, it is both parties' responsibility to take care of their own well-being. I don't care what your therapists say. You can't go on in life expecting that everything bad that happens to you is 100% the other person's fault. Take control of your life.


Wow. The non-empathy fully revealed.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Just make sure that you realize that you have some measure of control over the situation. What can you control? YOUR thoughts. YOUR actions. YOUR feelings. Remember that no matter what you choose to do, the other party may continue the abusive behavior. 

The other person may need you badly. You could be in fact just the missing part of their life. But, if you are their emotional liver, doing processing for them, their own learning process is impaired. That's pretty much co-dependent behavior. In general, not the best of situations.

You seem like a very empathetic, helper type. Get in touch with and wrestle your own tendency to feel worthless unless you are helping. As long as you can choose, act, and feel from a place that is authentic and not from a sense of worthlessness, your choices and the consequences of those choices have a better chance of being healthy. You are a worthy and powerful person and you deserve a healthy relationship. Your value is NOT based on what you provide to your partner. It is inherent. 

It sounds like your partner is not able to refrain from some angry controlling behavior, especially verbally. In a lot of my past relationships with abusive women I have had to realize that they needed to work through something before they could approach ANY relationship in a healthy way. It has indeed cost me some otherwise promising relationships but I do not regret ending any of them. The cycle of abuse was continuous and I was only enabling it until I ended it. In every case I recommended single and couples counseling to help the other party work through their issues. And in every case that offer was refused or handled with false enthusiasm. I think your situation would benefit from counselling as well. For both parties singly and as a couple.

Regardless, GL


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

fguewriter said:


> Wow. The non-empathy fully revealed.


I was under the impression that this post was meant to generate a discussion about the purpose of blame, not become an aggressive pity party for the OP about her abuse. People who only want confirmation of their rightness should go pay a therapist, not post on a public forum.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

devoid said:


> I was under the impression that this post was meant to generate a discussion about the purpose of blame, not become an aggressive pity party for the OP about her abuse. People who only want confirmation of their rightness should go pay a therapist, not post on a public forum.


Well, I have a paypal account, if anyone wants to pay me. 

(But I'm just a back-alley therapist, so use me at your own risk.)


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm not sure if I'd feel better if I ever need a therapist, paying the therapy might deppress me lol (why are the sessions so expensive ).


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

It's complicated.

Show her some Youtube videos about how Narcissists work (a lot, if not most abusers are narcissists). They're charming, loving, kind, generous and gregarious at first and then their mask slowly slips. They are master manipulators who learn from a very young age how to play people. They have little to no empathy, are strategic, cold, calculating and play on your vulnerabilities.

The victims don't leave because they're undergoing psychological torture. I think this part is extremely difficult for people to understand though unless they've been through it themselves.

They are literally master manipulators and deceivers.


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## EllieBear (Nov 8, 2012)

If you blame the victim you are able to avoid the idea that if might happen to you, or that people actually have to take responsibility for their actions.

The easiest one to use as an example is rape:

It's much easier to say that the victim was wearing the wrong outfit, that s/he was "asking" for it, or that s/he was in the wrong place or too drunk.

I'm a lesbian, so I find women attractive; however I've never had any wish or will to rape. No matter what she's wearing, how drunk she is, or her sexual past. It's never crossed my mind. It's a crime of violence and it's unforgivable - I don't understand the psychology behind it.

It's easier to blame the victim rather than acknowledge that actually it could easily happen to us. We could get involved in an abusive relationship and not leave. We could be walking home from the library in the evening and be raped. But instead we find fault in anything the victim did "They didn't know that their partner was abusive... how stupid, it must be obvious", or "If my boyfriend hit me I wouldn't stay with him, it's her own fault he hit her again", or maybe even "she shouldn't be out at night".

After all, it's much harder to stop people from being abusive, or rapists than it is to find a "battle buddy", and not go out at night. Also, the majority of rapes are committed by men, we do live in a society that doesn't like to find fault in the behaviour of men.

(I understand that domestic abuse rates are rising in the "women as the abuser" category), so this one could be turned around to the idea that men are the aggressive ones and should not be hurt by "passives" (women) and this idea as women as the aggressor is something we don't find very palatable.

So instead of looking at them and trying to tackle them we simply brush them under the carpet, blame the wrong people and stick our heads in the sand.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

EllieBear said:


> If you blame the victim you are able to avoid the idea that if might happen to you, or that people actually have to take responsibility for their actions.
> 
> The easiest one to use as an example is rape:
> 
> ...


Pretty much what you have said right here: It's an act of violence against women, that serves a few typical purposes. You know, either control/power (where the aggressor enjoys the feeling of being in charge), or anger (where the perpetrator is mad at women and enjoys punishing them), or the sadist (who gets off sexually, directly, on acting out his twisted fantasies that involve being in control over others' lives). Law enforcement has standardized profiles on the different categories, to help them investigate potential perpetrators.

Women are not at fault for being raped; there are just some things we can do to protect ourselves and be less of a target (as much as a man is not at fault for being mugged, but there are things he can do that will make muggers less likely to attack him). Face it, the world sucks sometimes, and we have to look after ourselves.

It was interesting reading two separate accounts of rape by the author Alice Sebold -- the one most people are aware of is the rape of the girl in "The Lovely Bones," vs the one that Sebold herself actually lived through, described in detail in her book "Lucky." There is not much detail in the one she wrote later for TLB, but the one she experienced herself earlier in life is very detailed in her description. From the wikipedia page for her:



> Sebold has stated that her reason for writing the book was to bring more awareness to rape. "One of the reasons why I wrote it is because tons of people have had similar stories, not exactly the same but similar, and I want the word 'rape' to be used easily in conversation. My desire would be that somehow my writing would take a little bit of the taboo or the weirdness of using that word away. No one work is going to accomplish the years of work that need to be done, but it can help."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_(memoir)

Talking about it openly rather than in hushed tones (the latter of which is a form of stigma dumped on the victim) is one way to ensure it is dealt with, aggressors are prosecuted, and people learn it is not acceptable.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

sleepyhead said:


> I don't think that's the same as having a conscious desire to abused though - I think there are people who have an underlying desire to be punished but aren't conscious of it, and I think there are a lot of people who are drawn to abusive persons for some of the reasons you mentioned, but I don't think that means they desire to be abused. Most often, I think they don't realize how often they punish themselves or that there's another way to be in a relationship. Many people stuck in this pattern can state they want to the abuse to end or they want to be out of the relationship (or they want the person to change) but they don't usually realize how a part of them thinks they deserve the abuse they're getting.


Goethe said a hard truth that, except in rare and wonderful cases, I've found to be subtly true: one is either hammer or anvil.


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## Tulkas (Feb 2, 2013)

fguewriter said:


> Goethe said a hard truth that, except in rare and wonderful cases, I've found to be subtly true: one is either hammer or anvil.


Has life been that bad? 

Because that's, at best, a half-truth.

And what work is that from? If it's from fiction (especially Faust) it doesn't necessarily follow that Goethe supported it.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

Tulkas said:


> Has life been that bad? - Because that's, at best, a half-truth. And what work is that from? If it's from fiction (especially Faust) it doesn't necessarily follow that Goethe supported it.


I don't think it's bad, because it's a truth. And it's a subtle one. But the rare and wonderful cases make the difference. I've known the reality of joy with people. 

> The full Johann Wolfgang Goethe quote is from "Gesellige Lieder, Ein Anderes" and is "You must either conquer and rule or serve and lose, suffer or triumph, be the anvil or the hammer" ("Du mußt steigen oder sinken/Du mußt herrschen und gewinnen,/Oder dienen und verlieren,/Leiden oder triumphieren,/Amboß oder Hammer sein.") - Hammer Into Anvil (1967) - Trivia - IMDb


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## Tulkas (Feb 2, 2013)

Fguewriter, is the work in German only or is there an English translation?

P.S.-If this "Truth" is so subtle, perhaps it's counter-productive to quote it without context.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

Tulkas said:


> Fguewriter, is the work in German only or is there an English translation? - P.S.-If this "Truth" is so subtle, perhaps it's counter-productive to quote it without context.


I trust it has been translated somewhere but I'm not familiar with such. You're getting too hung up on the auctorial intent.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm disturbed by some of the replies here, but I guess not everyone can counsel the abused.  As another poster said, victim-blaming is an easy way to let yourself know that "It won't happen to me, if I don't do this!" I also feel like victim-blamers are also insecure of their own trauma, and project it onto others. It's like a woman that blames herself for being raped, so she blames other women for enduring the same thing.

I would say to redirect your friend to some online websites or books that explain why abused people stay. In crisis, it's human nature to freeze to survive. Many abused people say they shut down or go numb when experiencing this. One can say "I would kick someone's ass if they did that to me!" Oh yeah? If you haven't actually been in such a situation and done so, you can't say what you would or wouldn't do.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

loving2011 said:


> It's like a woman that blames herself for being raped, so she blames other women for enduring the same thing.


I feel quite certain that is so in some cases here.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

fguewriter said:


> I feel quite certain that is so in some cases here.



There was someone on here (who I won't respectfully name) that said it's a woman's fault for just lying there and not saying anything. But, this poster later revealed that they had been in the same situation.

Another poster also blamed child sexual abuse victims, but then he revealed in another thread that he also was a child abuse survivor. 

One's words can really betray them.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

loving2011 said:


> There was someone on here (who I won't respectfully name) that said it's a woman's fault for just lying there and not saying anything. But, this poster later revealed that they had been in the same situation. - Another poster also blamed child sexual abuse victims, but then he revealed in another thread that he also was a child abuse survivor. - One's words can really betray them.


Full disclosure: I was sexually abused too. The only wrinkle is that it was by a non-adult boy. I was 12 and he was about 14 - quite the alpha male of the group who packed around him. They hated and disbelieved me for exploding one day and telling all to everyone at the top of my voice.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

fguewriter said:


> Full disclosure: I was sexually abused too. The only wrinkle is that it was by a non-adult boy. I was 12 and he was about 14 - quite the alpha male of the group who packed around him. They hated and disbelieved me for exploding one day and telling all to everyone at the top of my voice.



Hugs. Sorry to hear that.  Hope you're okay now.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

loving2011 said:


> Hugs. Sorry to hear that.  Hope you're okay now.


Thank you very much. *hugs returned!* Yes, for the most part. It was bad news, and a truly terrible introduction to sexuality. But it also confronted me with the issue, and made me dig down into myself and either become more fully myself - or break. In the end, I made it a liberating horror. (This is not in any way to excuse or sugarcoat. He was an abusive bastard and nothing excuses it.) I wrote the whole experience out in a blog that got turned into a book in 2009 - I remembered and relived each incident as it happened - and this helped liberate me, further, these many years later.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

fguewriter said:


> Trolls are all the same. They _pretend_ to make serious, indeed hard-edged arguments, and then if you wait a few iterations out comes the rage, projection, and spittle. Thank you for your full and final concession. Again: nice icon.  Social psychologist. : )


You start off by nagging me for an explanation as to how you're sexist, I not only give you one, but then serve you your lunch in regards to my avatar and how there's nothing sexist about it, and instead of being a grown up and offering either a concession or a disagreement as to how my points are invalid, you completely and wholly disregard everything I said, and then respond with a "Nanny nanny boo boo, you're still a dookie head."

There was never any rage. If anything, the only person "projecting" is you and your incessant whining that I wouldn't disclose how you were sexist, which only confirms that you're nothing more than a troll since you got what you wanted, then dickishly pretended that it didn't matter.

If you want a debate, you've got one. But if you just want to be a cunty troll, then you're looking at the wrong person.

No wonder you were sexually abused; your Republican sense of "I know you are but what am I" immature bullshit finally became too much for somebody and they took right action.

Unless you want to defend what we now know to be true, that you're not only a sexist but a meaningless troll who is far too old to be on an Internet forum, and offer up a counter-argument, stop being such a negative asshole. Failure to do so is going to result in some reported posts. There is a reason why trolling is a bannable offense; because people like me aren't "raging", rather, people like you are flame-baiting.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Lol, wow, you truly are the biggest sack of shit known to man.


What was that about posts being reported? Said threat is universally renowned as the ultimate confession of online fail.

> Too old

PerC has an _age limit_. Who knew?

> Failure to do so is going to result in some reported posts.

Feel free. I'll stack up your obscenity and hysteria against my polite mockery and refusal to engage in someone who screams accusations. Remember, bub: you claimed the following: "You probably beat [your wife]."

You seriously think I would ever consider someone who claimed it was likely I was a wife-beater to be worthy of argument? 

Incidentally, you're heteronormative: presupposing my marital partner is female! I could be married to a man and now sexually interested in women. Please, open your mind. : (


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

fguewriter said:


> You seriously think I would ever consider someone who claimed it was likely I was a wife-beater to be worthy of argument?


Well not any more now that I know that the only one reason you asked for my explanation of how you're a sexist pig was to just be a troll.

Which is fine: your lack of counter-argument is evidence of a concession, which I will happily take as both a concession that you are a sexist and concession that all of my points are correct.

For future reference, don't ask people, repeatedly, for information you so clearly don't give a fuck about.

Oh, right, you're a troll and I'm wasting my breath. Oops.

I'd argue against your laughable use of the fake word "heteronormative", but I know that breaking that down would only fall on deaf ears and open itself up to more finger-in-the-ears ignorance and trolling from you.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> .


You said: "You probably beat [your wife]."


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## TWN (Feb 16, 2012)

chip said:


> You need to educate yourself more, then. Do not focus on the victim so much, focus on the acts her abuser made. Legal advocates, therapists, everyone I've spoken with told me you do not blame. You are allowed to be mad, but you don't have to be mean, or place blame. The woman is already going through enough shit, do you really think she deserves to be blamed by some person who isn't in the situation? She needs understanding. Blaming is cruel and immature.



I get so tired of Chip playing up the victim; obviously she does this in her own life.

Just because you allow yourself ot be a victim, and let men make you uncomfortable doesn't mean you should get off the hook.

I personally think that some women use the victim role to accentuate their femininity; they use it to remain weak in order to look more delicate compared to men.

This is where shit goes wrong, and where societies opinions about beauty and feminine standards come into play.

People stay in abusive relationships because they are insecure; the only person responsible for your security as a person, is YOU; So in that way, I can and will blame the victim.


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## Dark NiTe (Mar 5, 2012)

I agree about insecurity. When you have a one track, tunnel vision approach to things, you're bound to persist through abuse to get it. However, that doesn't make it righteous at all. It seems like the typical Conservative patriarchal situation; keep wife in check psychologically, make sure her only skill is being a wife/mother at home, and have your way with her. Unfortunately, that does come down to a choice, though. When I went to a community college for a couple years, the first thing I noticed about the student body in my classes was that there were many unhappily married women who married at a young age for money and other shallow things, and were on their way to acquiring an acceptable job, and were ACTIVELY seeking a new man. So there is a choice if you feel trapped, unless your partner is a bonafide psycho who would actually go through with threats.


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## fguewriter (Dec 24, 2012)

benr3600 said:


> It seems like the typical Conservative patriarchal situation; keep wife in check psychologically, make sure her only skill is being a wife/mother at home, and have your way with her.


The theory of honor culture patriarchy makes sense: genetic certainty in the face of limited resources. Thank goodness our culture of abundance is undercutting that. Now for it to spread and make some inroads in places where "honor" still means oppression.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

TWN said:


> I get so tired of Chip playing up the victim; obviously she does this in her own life.
> 
> Just because you allow yourself ot be a victim, and let men make you uncomfortable doesn't mean you should get off the hook.
> 
> ...


Damn... It's too bad I don't know you.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

TWN said:


> I get so tired of Chip playing up the victim; obviously she does this in her own life.
> 
> Just because you allow yourself ot be a victim, and let men make you uncomfortable doesn't mean you should get off the hook.
> 
> ...


I'm tired of people using phrases like "play the victim" as a way to attack someone who has already been hurt. It takes the blame away from where it belongs, which is on the person committing the aggressive act against that person.

There is no "allowing" oneself to be a victim. Again, this is a way to side with the aggressor, and it comes up pretty often whenever anyone has been mistreated, perhaps as a way for those who lack empathy to feel empowered. After all, if the victim "let it happen," then it couldn't possibly happen to them, since they would never be so weak.

I am offended by the sexist notion that women like to become victims as a way to seem more feminine to men. It happens to women in positions of power who have no interest in seeming delicate. It happens to lesbians who don't care what men think. Domestic violence can affect anyone. It even happens to men, who have no interest in seeming feminine. 

People who stay in abusive relationships don't fit into a single mold. Some are confident. Some are strong. It doesn't matter. People have a responsibility not to hurt each other. The aggressor is the only one who should ever be blamed for an aggressive act.


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