# I'm so over the MBTI



## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

OrangeSoda said:


> Does anyone else ever feel this way? I'm like so over figuring out if I'm a Fe Fi Fo Fum Te Ti Ti Ho Ho. Looking at myself and others threw somebody elses lens. Sure I obviously agree that there are some benefits to it. There comes a point when it becomes unhealthy though. I already over think myself and others. I don't need a system like MBTI to enable me any further. I'm breakin' out of the system man. Who's coming with me? Does anyone else just get tired of thinking about themselves that way? Do you ever think that it could become unhealthy?
> 
> I just don't want to think of myself as an INFP, INFJ, ISFP, ENTJ 4w5 or whatever anymore. I just want to be me.


It's funny, Jung didn't really intend to come up with this 'system' that we know as MBTI. 



> *Jung did not develop his model of psychological types for this purpose. Rather than label people as this or that type, he sought simply to explain the differences between the ways we function and interact with our surroundings in order to promote a better understanding of human psychology in general, and one’s own way of seeing the world in particular.
> 
> To my mind, Jung’s model is most helpful when it is used not as a way to classify oneself or others, but rather in the way he originally thought of it, as a psychological compass. So, in any problematic situation, I ask myself four questions:
> 1) What are the facts? (sensation)
> ...


http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...k-guide-understanding-jungian-psychology.html

I've come to see the types in MBTI as 'close' or 'best' fits. That's pretty much it, nothing more nothing less. ^^

OS: If you ever do want to get back into finding your type, my offer to help you out pretty much never expires. 



kaleidoscope said:


> The MBTI might be helpful in the sense that it tells me how I perceive the world around me, but beyond that it doesn't go very deep. I adore how dark and ugly the Enneagram is.


The enneagram uses motivations, drives and fears etc and does a way better job at explaining behavior, which is something the cognitive functions weren't meant to do in the first place. But yeah, enneagram is awesome. ^^


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## amethyst_butterfly (Mar 14, 2011)

I have felt like this lately but I still have not felt the need to retire because there are still a lot of things to explore. I spent an entire year learning the general descriptions of all the personality types, then I decided to learn about the ennegram, then I realized that I do not know much about the MBTI yet such as the cognitive functions so I decided to learn those and now I came back to the ennegram because there are still things I need to figure out. The MBTI theory is very vast so is not something you learn in a couple of months. 

Sometimes I get bored of all this and is common for me to feel passionate about certain hobby then getting bored with it and finding something else to entertain myself. I think that is healthy to leave some hobbies to “rest” like for example I like to make jewelry but sometimes it can get boring and tedious and I stop making jewelry for months. All the sudden I see an interesting piece in a magazine that inspires me and I come back to my hobby. 

A thing that bothers me about MBTI is that you believe in this theory so much that you think that because INFPs are not T dominant they are not capable of solving problems with ease like “T” users do and you end up feeling that you are less intelligent than other types when this is not true. All INFPs are capable of being intelligent, solving problems and be successful in life. A MBTI type or ennegram number does not make you dumber or smarter than other people. If I were an “illogical” person I would not be where I am today. When I compare myself to people I know I am not doing bad at the age of 25 and is because I have a strong drive to succeed and it has always been like this before knowing all this theories.



I think that is why is not good to take those cognitive functions too seriously. When I think about them I feel like a computer with a bunch of processes running in the background and I try to open and close the ones I need and don't need. I am an human being, not a robot! 



People are too complex and unique to be able to fit perfectly in these types. Just be yourself and don't be afraid to be who you want to be.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

My feelings about this is that one needs not stop being oneself just because one is this or that type. It was never the reasoning behind the MBTI that people are 16 types of clones of each other. As long as you use the tool properly, there isn't anything wrong with it. I am my own kind of INFP, and I am happy with that. The MBTI has never cause me any grief-indeed, it was the source of much happiness in my life, as soon as I understand myself and others better, and wholly embrace who I am. A beautiful jorney of self-discovery-that's all the MBTI is. It's not about limiting yourself, but about _freedom to be ourselves._

However, if it doesn't suit you anymore, or in fact, makes you unhappy, t all, but we must noI am not going to judge you on that. I don't think it's bad at all, but we must not share the same views. May you be happy as you keep reaching for your dreams-my only advice is to love who you are, whether it can be encapsuluted by "INFPness" or not.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

You can use a screwdriver to kill yourself-it doesn't mean that screwdrivers must be harmful. That said, I wish everybody that is over the MBTI a beautiful and rich life journey. And of course, there are other personality tools to explore (however, never feel limited by them, for I don't believe that to be their true purpose.)


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> I adore how dark and ugly the Enneagram is.


Were it not because it can be useful to understand the people that really believe in it, I would dismiss it for the very same reasons. Furthermore, the point of the Enneagram isn't to "accept your darkness" but to actually _overcome it._

If somebody is selfish, I surely hope he /she becomes selfless in time, and not accept his "selfishness as who he/she really is". My intention is not to oppose the Enneagram, though, but to make sure it is used as a positive tool, rather than to reinforce/justify bad character/habits. I really mean no argument, and am actually offering a compassionate approach to those engulfed by the shadows of their "darker" selves.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

IcarusDreams said:


> Were it not because it can be useful to understand the people that really believe in it, I would dismiss it for the very same reasons. Furthermore, the point of the Enneagram isn't to "accept your darkness" but to actually _overcome it._
> 
> If somebody is selfish, I surely hope he /she becomes selfless in time, and not accept his "selfishness as who he/she really is". My intention is not to oppose the Enneagram, though, but to make sure it is used as a positive tool, rather than to reinforce/justify bad character/habits. I really mean no argument, and am actually offering a compassionate approach to those engulfed by the shadows of their "darker" selves.


I'm pretty sure you would dismiss anything negative Icarus, and it is in my opinion that it's equally as unhealthy as embracing your dark side. You chose to completely disregard any negative characteristic in yourself and others. The moment someone says anything less than completely positive, you jump in to counter. How is that healthy? The truth is, we ARE flawed and all of us have a dark side. Denying it would be to deny our nature, plain and simple. 

All personality tests you take stroke your ego when you get the result. I'm not surprised you like the MBTI more, the descriptions really baby you. The Enneagram is a psychospiritual tool that has a completely different purpose. The theory is based on the idea that as you grow up and your ego develops, you're more and more detached from the Holy Ideas, which are the positive way in which you view the world. *The purpose of studying the Enneagram is to actually get back in touch with those Holy Ideas. *For 4s for example, their fixation (negative way of viewing the world) is envy, their Holy Idea is equanimity. 

Just because I'm saying that I appreciate the dark side of the Enneagram doesn't mean that I'm using it as an excuse to remain the way I am. Every personality theory has as objective to improve oneself. I'm simply happy to find one that shows me my flaws, rather than shows me my qualities. I feel it's more constructive and helpful than one who tells me that I am a beautiful person who would make a wonderful partner, mother, friend (really?)


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

I also liberated myself from the mbti and from the typical "US Culture". Cos I felt like I lost myself. I see many association to be this, or that, and truly forget my own roots and how I saw the world to be. As much as I wanted to be an original person, and feel and see the world at large, I knew that I was searching for something, but this displacement is so not good for me. Instead of embracing psychology and science, I rather go back to something so much more basic and spiritual, which is what I want. People are a product of their own environments, and we have an intuition that makes us see as we want to see. It's a funny old world.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

Just because someone appreciates their good qualities, does not mean they are disregarding their bads. Isn't that how, focusing on how crappy life is.. the early stages of falling into depression?

Being a type 2, I can tell you what my flaws are.. and that is being taken advantage of and worrying so much about how others portray me. And every day by focusing on me and breaking free of how others view me and doing things out of my own kindness, I feel more liberated. I admire and feel like I'm working more towards being an "individualistic type 4" as canned as that sounds.. and focusing on the opposite would keep me in a state of sadness and hopelessness.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> I'm pretty sure you would dismiss anything negative Icarus, and it is in my opinion that it's equally as unhealthy as embracing your dark side. You chose to completely disregard any negative characteristic in yourself and others. The moment someone says anything less than completely positive, you jump in to counter. How is that healthy? The truth is, we ARE flawed and all of us have a dark side. Denying it would be to deny our nature, plain and simple.
> 
> All personality tests you take stroke your ego when you get the result. I'm not surprised you like the MBTI more, the descriptions really baby you. The Enneagram is a psychospiritual tool that has a completely different purpose. The theory is based on the idea that as you grow up and your ego develops, you're more and more detached from the Holy Ideas, which are the positive way in which you view the world. *The purpose of studying the Enneagram is to actually get back in touch with those Holy Ideas. *For 4s for example, their fixation (negative way of viewing the world) is envy, their Holy Idea is equanimity.
> 
> Just because I'm saying that I appreciate the dark side of the Enneagram doesn't mean that I'm using it as an excuse to remain the way I am. Every personality theory has as objective to improve oneself. I'm simply happy to find one that shows me my flaws, rather than shows me my qualities. I feel it's more constructive and helpful than one who tells me that I am a beautiful person who would make a wonderful partner, mother, friend (really?)


-The MBTI and Enneagram needs not be put in an either you are for it or against it position. While I prefer the MBTI's origins and motivations, it could happily coexist with the Enneagram and other different personality studies (like the "new" personality one, where people are labeled "dramatic, "sensitive", "aggressive", etc.)

-I do not disregard our capacity to be at our lowest, nor that we can all be capable of being at our darkest-I merely downplay it to the point that I make it irrelevant, vs all the other wonderful things to be discovered about us. I find it insulting to loving 2s if they are told that they "must be" selfish in their actions. Regardless, healthy 2s are not selfish anyway, and shouldn't we all strive to be "healthy?" 

-How is it healthy to let people see themselves as naturally flawed? I would say it's less healthy to focus in our "real problems" rather than with our potential to be happy and above them (I.E. we need not let our "darkness" darken our paths, however you define your own darkness.)

-It's not about my ego, for I praise all types of people all the time, whether they are 4s or INFPs, or any other types. Perhaps I like when people say nice, constructive things about me than judge me without knowing me, as may happen on ocassion with the Enneagram? Similarly, I like to make people feel better about themselves, because I know it feels good, and I want them to feel good/"healed", not to tell them how "dark" they can be. Of course we could all be criminals. Do we really want that, though?

-I feel this is important to note you made, so I'll quote it again here. for perhaps it is one of the main reasons you love the Enneagram, and I have always been ambivalent about it:

"The Enneagram is a psychospiritual tool that has a completely different purpose. The theory is based on the idea that as you grow up and your ego develops, you're more and more detached from the Holy Ideas, which are the positive way in which you view the world. *The purpose of studying the Enneagram is to actually get back in touch with those Holy Ideas. *For 4s for example, their fixation (negative way of viewing the world) is envy, their Holy Idea is equanimity."

The above is one of the reasons why the Enneagram has always been questioned by me. I like it when used as a self-discovery tool, and a positive one at that. I don't seek any spiritual enlightening (at least, not with personality type theories), but to know myself and others better. I feel it can be laden with too much obscure, quasi-mystical language, which is not my style (some people love that of course, and they are not wrong in the least for it.) The "Continuum" has little value to me (I was reading the book, so I am familiar with the other terms you used above as well, as with the Holy Idea, etc.) I was almost going to buy the book yesterday (I might some time), but its "spiritual" roots are usually a turn-off for me (evidently not for you, which is fine.)

In summary, the purpose of the Enneagram is not a spiritual one _for me in specific_, regardless it's original, intended spiritual purpose-I use it to discover myself and others, not to pry into their spiritual sides.

-Lastly, in the misidentification chapters in the cited book (Understanding the Enneagram), the author clearly expressed that some people do not appear to be their type because they do not seem to represent their "bad sides". Simply stated, some types may not relate to their dark side if they are very healthy. I hate saying "I am healthy", for who can say that one cannot learn anymore and stop getting "better" all the time? That said, I simply cannot relate to Envy, and I refuse that my defacto world view must be a negative one just because I am a 4. I shall not let anyone tell me I am naturally flawed, pure and simple. "You suck as a human being, so better do something about that!" is not in me; however "can you envision all the beautiful things you will be able to do if you just focus in your amazing potential?" IS my style.

And lastly:

"I'm simply happy to find one that shows me my flaws, rather than shows me my qualities. I feel it's more constructive and helpful than one who tells me that I am a beautiful person who would make a wonderful partner, mother, friend (really?)"

REALLY.  Your "flaws" pale in comparison to the beaty and potential that lies within you. I wouldn't dare myself to call you flawed, whatever your areas of growth that need to be developed. We all have those. But I am firmly convinced that you would make a wonderful partner, mother, friend, and human being-I have no need to reinforce the negative, which many others will "happily" do for you throughout your life. 

(Ironically-although perhaps not that much, since I am supposed to be a 4-I do not think that the world is a "happy place" where everybody is perfect, but since I dislike unhappiness, I strive to see the beautiful side of life, and to appreciate the wonderful in me and others.)


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

^ Well said and completely broken down to basics


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@IcarusDreams



> -How is it healthy to let people see themselves as naturally flawed? I would say it's less healthy to focus in our "real problems" rather than with our potential to be happy and above that (I.E. we need not let our "darkness" darken our paths, however you define your own darkness.)


It's less healthy to focus on our real problems? "Ignorance is bliss" might apply to you Icarus, but it certainly doesn't for me. Self awareness is key, and knowledge is power. I do believe that once you know yourself enough to be able to recognize your flaws and shortcomings, you'll be able to use them to your advantage. Without acknowledging them first, how would you know how to get better in the first place? IMO, being familiar with ALL the sides of your personality, good or bad, ugly or beautiful, makes one a stronger person, better equipped to deal with the world. 



> -It's not about my ego, for I praise all types of people all the time, whether they are 4s or INFPs, or any other types. Perhaps I like when people say nice, constructive things about me than judge me without knowing me, as may happen on ocassion with the Enneagram? Similarly, I like to make people feel better about themselves, because I know it feels good, and I want them to feel good/"healed", not to tell them how "dark" they can be. Of course we could all be criminals. Do we really want that, though?


I never mentioned that you were doing this for your ego, so I don't know why you felt the need to mention that. I'm not denying the potential of praise to a person's self esteem nor am I attacking it, I'm merely defending personality theories who do not follow this procedure. The Enneagram is a mix of psychodynamic theory and spirituality. If you do not appreciate it, why insist on using it as a tool to type yourself? Why say you're an "envy-less Four?" Twisting the theory to fit your ideals is not the way to go about it, I'm sorry. In order to embrace your qualities, one must embrace the less flattering parts of themselves as well. As a Four, I recognize my darker side, which makes my positive side seem all the more beautiful. Denial is not the way, and it weakens an individual because they are refusing to accept a significant part of themselves. 

It takes a LOT for a person to be healthy. I'm not doubting your healthiness because I don't know you, but I would hesitate before affirming it. If you are indeed a healthy 4 then at some point in your life, you *were *an average to unhealthy 4 and so you *did *experience the envy. However, you seem to deny it altogether ("I cannot relate to Envy"). 

Again, I am not calling anyone flawed nor is the Enneagram. It simply works on the principle that awareness of the ugliness of one's personality ought to shake up an individual enough to propel them into growth. This is obviously not your philosophy, you prefer to ignore this aspect. I respect it, but I honestly don't believe the Enneagram is for you.


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## Sily (Oct 24, 2008)

@_IcarusDreams_

Sir,
Just keep doing what you are doing. You are one of a kind and I love the view of life that you bring. It is greatly needed, in this world and forum.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

Ms. @_kaleidoscope_,

I still like the Enneagram for the potential good it offers, and because it helps me understand better other points of views out there. You seem to love it, and I understand you better if I know the tool that you love. (I also feel the Enneagram could be "more useful" if simplified and made less "spiritual", but that simply is just a personal point of view.) For instance, your focus on liking the negative aspects of the Enneagram are rather "4ish" for me, and helps me understand better where you are coming from. 

I feel more like what they say a 4 is, and perhaps because I had a rather happy (although simple) childhood, despite my old crippling shyness, may account for not having the need to envy others. I did, however, feel the frequently alluded "void" and "need to be rescued" that many 4s are supposed to have, but dealt with it (and continually do). I no longer accept that I need to be rescued, but that I need to see/appreciate things differently in order to live happily as myself. I have disliked envy since childhood, and even though no doubt I have been envious at some point (everybody must have been), it surely doesn't drive me.

Have you thought that the Enneagram may be imperfect and it is for that reason that an envy-less 4 may not make sense for you? Must the theory be flawless for you to find it useful? Is the MBTI even flawless? I doubt it. I am not saying that you should question the usefulness of the Enneagram, but of course be open to the possibility that it may not be able to encompass every possibility out there (in fact, the book in one part reads "more research needs to be done".)

And lastly, I do not understand why is it so many people claim I ignore people's problems-I merely emphasize solutions, and a positive approach so that we can all reach our dreams. If you are not prepared for a test, you must study first. I don't claim that we are all "naturally prepared" to take the test. But I do believe we can ALL pass the test with the proper self-discovery. Hope that makes it clear about the "ignorance is bliss", frequent accusation I see made against myself.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@_IcarusDreams_

If you read Maitri, she mentions that all the vices experienced by each type are present in everyone. We all experience envy, gluttony, pride, lust, etc. It's just that every type has a propensity or a tendency towards a certain vice more than others. That said, you seem incapable of accepting the concept of every type being driven by a negative impulse, much less your own type. This is why I pointed out your "ignorance is bliss" philosophy.

I do think the Enneagram is imperfect, but I never saw you questioning the MBTI so much, perhaps because it's a lot more flattering and positive  Anyway, this clearly isn't leading up to anything so I'm going to step out of this conversation. 

PS: Your attitude reminds me of this theory that I read about earlier. Sixes can be phobic and counter-phobic, but it has been proposed that X and counter-X is present in every type. This reminds me a lot of you:



> Four: Self-sufficiency
> The passion of Fours is envy. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of contentment. At that time, Fours want to appear self-sufficient. They claim to be satisfied with who they are and what they have. What others have that they lack is hence useless, devoid of interest and they are happy to do without.


From this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/95085-x-counter-x.html


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

IcarusDreams said:


> And lastly, I do not understand why is it so many people claim I ignore people's problems-I merely emphasize solutions, and a positive approach so that we can all reach our dreams. If you are not prepared for a test, you must study first. I don't claim that we are all "naturally prepared" to take the test. But I do believe we can ALL pass the test with the proper self-discovery. Hope that makes it clear about the "ignorance is bliss", frequent accusation I see made against myself.


Here's why people claim you ignore problems:



IcarusDreams said:


> -I do not disregard our capacity to be at our lowest, nor that we can all be capable of being at our darkest-I merely downplay it to the point that I make it irrelevant, vs all the other wonderful things to be discovered about us. I find it insulting to loving 2s if they are told that they "must be" selfish in their actions. Regardless, healthy 2s are not selfish anyway, and shouldn't we all strive to be "healthy?"
> 
> -How is it healthy to let people see themselves as naturally flawed? I would say it's less healthy to focus in our "real problems" rather than with our potential to be happy and above them (I.E. we need not let our "darkness" darken our paths, however you define your own darkness.)


Downplaying = ignoring. A different form of ignoring, but ignoring nonetheless.

I honestly admire your positive attitude and approach to things, but I cannot agree with some of the things you say; I think it's in how we approach things, the way we go about them. Like downplaying our darker parts in order to let our beautiful parts shine. I do agree that our darker parts can overshadow the beauty within us, but I think it's through accepting and loving our darker parts that we can diminish their shadow. If we downplay them, we deny them, we choose to not see them, which I think is a way of twisting the truth about us. A truth that will catch up with us at some point. "Ignorance is bliss" was a tad harsh comment to my taste, but it does touch upon this issue.

""Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it." // Terry Pratchet

We are flawed, because we are human. We have a bright side and a dark side. Though I can agree with some of what you're saying, if put slightly differently. Focusing on our issues to accept them (and where possible, solve them) is good, but focus too much and one will indeed lose sight of the brighter parts. 

I just don't agree with downplaying. Other than that, your positive attitude to emphasize potential can be very much needed and appreciated in certain situations. 

And I still think that side of yours to see potential in others and wanting to let it shine is very much a One thing. Sorry, can't get it out of my head. xD Perhaps you have it as a gut fix or as a wing (2w1 or 9w1). Who knows (but you). 



> The above is one of the reasons why the Enneagram has always been questioned by me. I like it when used as a self-discovery tool, and a positive one at that. I don't seek any spiritual enlightening (at least, not with personality type theories), but to know myself and others better. I feel it can be laden with too much obscure, quasi-mystical language, which is not my style (some people love that of course, and they are not wrong in the least for it.) The "Continuum" has little value to me (I was reading the book, so I am familiar with the other terms you used above as well, as with the Holy Idea, etc.) I was almost going to buy the book yesterday (I might some time), but its "spiritual" roots are usually a turn-off for me (evidently not for you, which is fine.)
> 
> In summary, the purpose of the Enneagram is not a spiritual one _for me in specific_, regardless it's original, intended spiritual purpose-I use it to discover myself and others, not to pry into their spiritual sides.


I don't know how it is for the whole of Enneagram, but I think the spirituality of it all is more a mental thing. It's not really mystic to me. Terms like "Holy Word" and "Vice" and whatnot are just symbolical, metaphorical. Growing as a person? Whether one calls it mental or spiritual or psychological, it is growth in the end. I think we share the same intention to use Enneagram as a 'device' for self discovery. Although I would have to say that wielding it as a tool has its 'limits': the best result is to use it as it is intended. Hammers are intended to drive nails into objects etc, like scissors are meant to make cuts. Of course we can use scissors like hammers but it's not going to give you results like you would have had using a hammer. ^^

That said, I think the full potential of using the Enneagram is to see, understand and accept our darker sides, not downplay them. Yes it can still be used as a self discovery tool, but it's got potential to be more than that.

For similar reasons I have become somewhat discontent with MBTI. I've quoted Sharp before in this thread, on how Jung intended to use his theories to better understand our cognitive processes, not to box ourselves into one of the 16 types that MBTI has come up with. What happens is, because of the MBTI, people try to 'analyze' their behavior first ("INFP really fits me!") and narrow down their cognitive functioning that way. While in reality, it is the other way around: through understanding our cognitive processing and preferences, we can understand our behavior, while noting that even in this way, cognition doesn't equal behavior 100% - which is what people assume when discussing cognition. I am guilty of that, tbh, because it's so easy talk about MBTI things like the majority does (damn Fe lol) so it's easy to forget how it was really intended.



> (Ironically-although perhaps not that much, since I am supposed to be a 4-I do not think that the world is a "happy place" where everybody is perfect, but since I dislike unhappiness, I strive to see the beautiful side of life, and to appreciate the wonderful in me and others.)


I seriously love this attitude, but I cannot comply with shutting (squinting is closer to downplaying, I guess) our eyes to the darker side of life. C'est tout. ^^


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## HeyGirl (Nov 25, 2010)

@kaleidoscope since I'm a four myself, I would be interested to know where the difference between being in the state of the four's counterpassion and a healthy four is (assuming that a healthy four would be happy most of the time)?


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

Four: Self-sufficiency
The passion of Fours is envy. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of contentment. At that time, *Fours want to appear self-sufficient. (**Why can't they be? Just because they MUST be envious? This is why I don't let theories "cage me.") **They claim to be satisfied with who they are and what they have. (What, they just can't be happy and satisfied with themselves just because they are 4s? ) What others have that they lack is hence useless, devoid of interest and they are happy to do without.** (Well said. )

*According to the above, 4s cannot be genuinely content to _really_ be a 4-you have no idea how much I oppose that kind of thinking, and I don't think healthy 4s must really be envious anyway. It is funny, because I do agree that this "contentment virtue" is what will make most INFPs and 4s happy (I don't make a caricature of it, though-it can be genuine happiness with self). But the theory above holds it as a virtual impossibility. Why even try to be content if you "naturally" can't? That's all I am against for. 

Take care, it's not personal at all.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

eyenexepee said:


> Here's why people claim you ignore problems:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear friend,

While reading an Enneagram book last night, I cried while reading the type 4 questionnaire, because it mentioned that suicide may have been considered by me as a way out of life's difficulties. It was on 2010. That wasn't very good of me to think like that. I totally oppose any and all things that will make somebody hurt themselves, belittle themselves, or claim that they are not good enough to be happy in this world. Thus, I will oppose any system that inherently claims that "we suck" to push for "growth". We may all suck in many ways, but we may all grow and become better. I will only use the Enneagram as far as it involves personal growth in a positive way. I refuse to see myself and others as misbegotten and faulty. Some people are selfish, others are arrogant, others are envious, but you know what? All humans can be too, regardless type. Is it right to be proud of being selfish/envious/etc.? What's the value of finding faults within? Not everybody grows by being told they suck-some give up, and kill themselves-is that really what you would like to happen (you can blame them, but a life is a life)?

I will make sure that people don't have to go through the pain I've gone to, or at least try to minimize it in my idealistic, healer fashion. I refuse to be part of the destroyers. Telling others how bad "they really are" will not always produce the effects you desire for them. Perhaps some people need to be told upfront "your bad character sucks". But in people who are mostly wonderful, why try to dig for faults, especially with sensitive individuals? What's the value of making feel people bad/hopeless about themselves?

(It is annoying especially with "true 4s" who are often more sensitive about how they are being perceived. If a 4 is told that he/she is "supposed" to see life negatively, how can he/she be a positive, self-loving human being? I don't even think the Enneagram really stands for that-I certainly won't use it to that effect, anyway.)

See why I dislike the negativity of the Enneagram? I don't want people to suffer as I did. Nobody's perfect, but nobody should be told that they innately "suck at life" in some way-not if I really care for them as individuals.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

I like ice cream.. but if I had a choice between ice cream or a steak, I'd downplay ice cream and this does not mean I am ignoring it

Oh and also, yea.. darkness will always be around, but it's the light that pierces through the darkness.. kinda like how a lighthouse shines it's light so boats can find their way and not crash.

I am not claiming to be a lighthouse btw.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

I am sorry if my replies seem very emotional, because they are. It's not as if I didn't know pain. To be honest, I love you people, and don't want you to suffer by believing damned lies about yourself. No personality type or theory can emcompass the wonderful human being you can be, despite our difficulties. Do not believe you are flawed, for you deserve much better.

Love and tears,

IcarusDreams


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## HeyGirl (Nov 25, 2010)

@eyenexepee 
"And I still think that side of yours to see potential in others and wanting to let it shine is very much a One thing."

Hm the One that I have encountered so far mostly wanted me to live up to HER ideals. She didn't want to see or hear (!) about whats really going on (my world-view, potentionals, problems), instead she was very quick to judge (sadly mostly on the negative side) according to her own standards. So being rigid/ harsh was a sign of love because she wanted "the best for me" (aka. living up to her standards, which is kind of ignorant and selfish).

Sometimes I think that this particular person enjoyed to judge because it would make her feel more perfect about herself and that she is the one who is "right" (which was very existential to her). Lots of judgements were about things she had problems with too (she was usually doing alot worse at these, that's why she needed to project them onto others).
It was hurtful.
Okay, obviously a bad experience  and solely based on this one "One", and it's not really about you either, it just popped in my mind when i read your sentence.


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## HeyGirl (Nov 25, 2010)

@IcarusDreams Maybe you're confusing beating yourself and others up about flaws (which is obviously not good) with having an objective and respectful look at your negative sides as well (personally for me it's mostly about acceptance and even love towards myself as a whole and once you give your flaws permission to exist they are just "there" and occur once in a while, which is okay). 

I would lie if I said that criticism never hurt me, but in the end it has always been tremendously valuable (especially the respectful kind, which is mostly the one used by people who genuinely want to help you seeing things you may not see on your own).


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## nakkinaama (Jun 20, 2012)

Omg i love you so much now because of this post! Just so awesome


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

I was reading this today and it resonate with me a lot... 

Work Consciously – Productivity, Mindfulness and Spirituality » Blog Archive » Too Smart To Be Happy: How We Get Attached To Negativity


*"2. Making An Identity Out Of Our Negativity. "
*
Anyone should "just be". At what point in people's lives do they forget who they are, but let science dictate them. Social science, that is. I used to say this all the time, and then I stopped. "Words are cheap". Actions speak louder than words alone. We can say a lot of things to convince ourselves of x y or z, but at the end of the day, if in doing so, it still does not make us happy then something is amiss, and we have ourselves to answer to. Is not saying something which absolutely is the truthful word from your heart count, and even if you said it, is it SUCH a bad thing that the other person MUST react badly and harshly in return ?


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

Honestly, I find no positive aspect about "finding out" that you "must" see life negatively as a true 4, Ms. Heygirl. It is the reason why I don't even believe it's a truthful statement. I would accept it as a tendency to look inwardly and find shame within, or the general feeling of a void inside, but not as a rule. We are bigger than the Enneagram in this respect. I feel bad for all 4s that believe they must be see life negatively because they are 4s. A damned lie that is, and not a healthy way to live (I am convinced it will generally and eventually bring 4s to tragedy.)


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## Loveternity (Aug 3, 2011)

@IcarusDreams, try to accept that 4s are infatuated with their own tragedy and sadness. To them, any feeling, positive or negative, needs to be fully felt, it's a matter of being genuine and staying true to oneself. I understand your stance against negativity, believe me. As a 2, I was also initially confused by how this behavior can be healthy.

I'm asking you to accept that what might be (un)healthy for you doesn't have to be (un)healthy for someone else.

Edit: Minor clarification.


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## nakkinaama (Jun 20, 2012)

Holy shit. For moths now this thing has been an obsession to me. I just shoveled myself into the box and never thought of it as a hobby, and I took it seriously. I thought that that was who I am, and I will never be anything else. I started feeling bad, because I would always think and compare myself and my behaviour to the type I was supposed to be. But now I dont even know what type I am. So, now its the time for the true self-discovery! Goodbye, old and boring life, and welcome better-quality life with limitless possibilities or whatever the heck Im bantering about in my mind! 

And also, the MBTI is not about your abilities, it is the outlines for your personality. It doesnt describe you to a T, believe it or not.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

ICarusdream dear, I think you should realise when you do displace your own emotions too and make association to things that you think "is" and when it is not. Maybe because you have this ability to absorb emotions and is an artist, as I know you are a musician before. But bear in mind that others, do not necessarily see negative or down or bad side of emotions as THAT bad. Life goes in peaks and troughs. But if you keep on being too sympathetic to them, then you yourself are also letting yourself be dragged into the bad emotions and forget to live your own life too. Misery loves company and all that. 

With regards to people being depressed. Well, sorry but,... because there is a whole big industry of psycho-therapy, pills, depression counselling.... how is anyone has any chance of just living their own lives and getting on with things, and not even dare saying very negative emotions and being vulnerable and sharing their joys and sadness in life?? To me that is not even natural to be always so upbeat. Cos heck, we are human too. If one can indeed be joyous, then share it, but if you cannot for whatever reason, then don't force yourself to be so. It is okay to take a breather and people should not be alienated or to be judged against it in later days etc...


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

IcarusDreams said:


> See why I dislike the negativity of the Enneagram? I don't want people to suffer as I did. Nobody's perfect, but nobody should be told that they innately "suck at life" in some way-not if I really care for them as individuals.


I see what you're saying. I don't really know what to say about your contemplation on life during 2010, for no words can match the sadness that emanates from it... I can only say I'm happy you're still here man, and I know many others will agree with me. You are a good person and if you should ever leave the forum, I would consider it a loss. Many have gained something great through your opinions and perspectives and I'm sure nobody will disagree with me on that either 

We all go through our rough times and some have it rougher than others. We need not a system that pushes us deeper down, but we could use the help of systems that explain and describe our rough times through explaining and describing our motivations and fears, our coping and escaping mechanisms and what other things you can think of, in order to get through and grow more into the beautiful people we are. That is what the Enneagram can do for people, that's how I think it's supposed to be used in the first place.

I think I understand now why you are so motivated to see and emphasize the good about and in people (and still, I admire your gusto with which you pursue that). You're right, nobody deserves to feel pain and sadness to the point of making her/him suicidal. Nobody should have to go through such a phase. I too wish that nobody has to deal with negativity. Like you, I am pained when I see others go through pain. It is not logical, not just, to put others through pain on purpose.

For the record, I don't consider you a bad person for having had suicidal thoughts. I wish you didn't have to experience it all, but I don't consider someone good or bad for having such thoughts.

However, I still believe that we have these two sides to us. Whether you want to call it light and dark, good and bad, flawed or perfect, faulty or proper, is a moot point really. Accepting that we have these two sides is not moot. I am fairly certain that a holistic approach (acknowledging and accepting both 'light' and 'dark') is the only way to go about things in the end. There is no value in finding faults for the sake of finding faults, but it is through understanding and accepting our 'dark' side that we can achieve holistic growth. That is not pushing, that is accepting the inevitable, the undeniable. That we are flawed. And that it's totally okay to have flaws. Growth is not only cultivating our potential and our beautiful side, but also in accepting our humanity, our being human.

The foundation of MBTI has a similar thing: the inferior function. INFJ's can't help being sensitive to Se and have Se-like eruptions (flaws), INFP's have Te. It's inevitably and undeniably there. It's kind of ugly, dark, creepy. But it's there. So we can choose not to see that, we can choose to ignore it or downplay it, but it's there. If I would choose to only cultivate my Ni, or if you would only cultivate your Fi, we would take a one-dimensional approach that in the end isn't complete. And it will catch up to us.

I'm not sure if I seem to make an argument out of things, I don't mean to argue really for it is such a delicate topic... But we agree to having different ways then?

Happy to have you here on the forums, my friend. ^^


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

HeyGirl said:


> @_eyenexepee_
> "And I still think that side of yours to see potential in others and wanting to let it shine is very much a One thing."
> 
> Hm the One that I have encountered so far mostly wanted me to live up to HER ideals. She didn't want to see or hear (!) about whats really going on (my world-view, potentionals, problems), instead she was very quick to judge (sadly mostly on the negative side) according to her own standards. So being rigid/ harsh was a sign of love because she wanted "the best for me" (aka. living up to her standards, which is kind of ignorant and selfish).
> ...


xD

I hope I've passed that station of having people grow like I think they should. I hope and I think I have it in me to see people's potential like it is (not the way I want to see it). I hope I have passed that station, but as a One, this is my potential 'dark' side, that I (inadvertently) expect people to live up to standards that are (possibly) not theirs but mine. Congratulations in perceiving it. I acknowledge that is a pitfall for me. ^^;

I am sorry for what your friend did to you. I hope you've been able to get over it. Ones can be assholes, lol. ^^;


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

Overflow said:


> @IcarusDreams, try to accept that 4s are infatuated with their own tragedy and sadness. To them, any feeling, positive or negative, needs to be fully felt, it's a matter of being genuine and staying true to oneself. I understand your stance against negativity, believe me. As a 2, I was also initially confused by how this behavior can be healthy.
> 
> I'm asking you to accept that what might be (un)healthy for you doesn't have to be (un)healthy for someone else.
> 
> Edit: Minor clarification.


Feelings are beautiful, whether happy or sad. The things is I "am" a 4. I am not misunderstanding 4s, but encouraging them to view life as THEMSELVES, and not as we are "supposed" to see it, whether as 4s, INFPs, etc. I enjoy tragedy as well (am listening to a sad song right now because I love the way it makes me feel) but refuse to live in perpetual misery-I was meant to appreciate the beautiful side of life as well as its most tragic one.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

IcarusDreams said:


> I am sorry if my replies seem very emotional, because they are. It's not as if I didn't know pain. To be honest, I love you people, and don't want you to suffer by believing damned lies about yourself. No personality type or theory can emcompass the wonderful human being you can be, despite our difficulties. Do not believe you are flawed, for you deserve much better.
> 
> Love and tears,
> 
> IcarusDreams


Heh, I feel some tears welling up as well. I'm touched by your love for people and their beauty yet at the same time I cannot ignore seeing us for who we are, the good, the bad, the happy, the sad. It's tearing me up a bit...

We are flawed, but in acknowledging that and our better parts, we can become better on the whole. We can reach for what we deserve. We can make it happen. You are far on this road of improvement, Icarus. I know you are.

Aye aye,
Eye


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## IdealEuphoria (Sep 2, 2011)

OrangeSoda said:


> Does anyone else ever feel this way? I'm like so over figuring out if I'm a Fe Fi Fo Fum Te Ti Ti Ho Ho. Looking at myself and others threw somebody elses lens. Sure I obviously agree that there are some benefits to it. There comes a point when it becomes unhealthy though. I already over think myself and others. I don't need a system like MBTI to enable me any further. I'm breakin' out of the system man. Who's coming with me? Does anyone else just get tired of thinking about themselves that way? Do you ever think that it could become unhealthy?
> 
> I just don't want to think of myself as an INFP, INFJ, ISFP, ENTJ 4w5 or whatever anymore. I just want to be me.



This thread made me think. Sometimes I wonder if I would like to get back to my ignorant and 'innocent' state, the person I was before I knew about MBTI.

But I just realized that I've been typing people my whole life. Before, I was classifying and labeling people all the time with words like boring, shallow, scientific, intelligent, un-intelligent, non-philosophical, practical, impossible-to-speak-to, artistic, feminine, masculine, narrow-minded etc. The way I used these labels were far more limiting than the MBTI-types. For me, the types are not just a tool to define myself, they are a tool to understand that all people are not like me. Their way of viewing the world may be fundamentally different from my way of viewing the world. Before, I even thought that the reason I was different was that I was philosophically superior to others. This is embarassing in retrospect. 

For me, the MBTI offers labels that are broad enough to let people be themselves and be exactly who they are and who they want to be. Still the labels are specific enough to help me accept that there are some personality traits (such as introversion and sensitivity) that probably will follow me throughout my life, and that's ok.

I do agree that overthinking the system may become unhealthy though. I'm glad you wrote this post, because I don't want to go so deep into theory that it limits me. 

This post just describes my personal views, they may not apply to anyone else than me.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

To me, understanding yourself and the labels and others, means that you can then take control of your own life and change it around and BE you. I did not realised this but I have hidden myself for so many years, and was indeed an ESTJ to protect myself to such an extent that my friends and associate said that I am pretty analytical ? But, I now remember that, I used knowledge to overcome my fears, and to be accepted, and to prove to myself that I am capable. Other people could see me for what I became but I could not acknowledge what I have become... I think the "validation" business has become too much, and now to balance myself, these days I have the absolute confidence to be an airhead, and I am okay with that too.  I am in touch with my "shiva feminine" and ditching the "angry feminist" labels.....


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

HeyGirl said:


> @kaleidoscope since I'm a four myself, I would be interested to know where the difference between being in the state of the four's counterpassion and a healthy four is (assuming that a healthy four would be happy most of the time)?


The counterpassion state is a fixation, just like envy. It's tainted by your ego, and does not mean that you're healthy. Your question is somehow along the lines of asking what's the difference between a counter-phobic Six and a healthy Six. Completely different things. Counterpassion is an illusion, a sort of defense mechanism 4s use in order to trick themselves into believing that they don't need anything and they're self-sufficient. It works the complete opposite way of envy, that's all.

I hope that helped


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

IcarusDreams said:


> Why can't they be? Just because they MUST be envious? This is why I don't let theories "cage me." What, they just can't be happy and satisfied with themselves just because they are 4s?


You completely misunderstood counterpassion. Allow me to explain:



> People are expressing their counterpassion if they are:
> 1. Living in their passion;
> 2. Not conscious of their passion and denying it openly;
> 3. Behaving in a manner contrary to the attitude which would be induced by their passion;
> 4. Attaching a positive value to these behaviors. They may confuse counterpassion and integration, especially if they know the Enneagram and assume these behaviors resemble the virtue aspect of their type.


I believe you're doing all four of these. You're living in your passion (if you consider yourself to be a Four, you must be - that's how the theory works), not conscious of it and full on denying it ('I am an envy-less Four'), behaving in a manner contrary to what you believe is envious, and attaching positive value to it ("embracing your positive side"). Moreover, you definitely call it being healthy and assume it's just you integrating. 

Counter-passion is *NOT* healthiness. It's being in denial, plain and simple.

EDIT: @_HeyGirl_, this will help explain more the difference between counter-passion and healthiness.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

HeyGirl said:


> @IcarusDreams Maybe you're confusing beating yourself and others up about flaws (which is obviously not good) with having an objective and respectful look at your negative sides as well (personally for me it's mostly about acceptance and even love towards myself as a whole and once you give your flaws permission to exist they are just "there" and occur once in a while, which is okay).
> 
> I would lie if I said that criticism never hurt me, but in the end it has always been tremendously valuable (especially the respectful kind, which is mostly the one used by people who genuinely want to help you seeing things you may not see on your own).


THANK YOU! 

Seriously, thank you. This sums up my entire point.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

IcarusDreams said:


> Dear friend,
> 
> While reading an Enneagram book last night, I cried while reading the type 4 questionnaire, because it mentioned that suicide may have been considered by me as a way out of life's difficulties. It was on 2010. That wasn't very good of me to think like that. I totally oppose any and all things that will make somebody hurt themselves, belittle themselves, or claim that they are not good enough to be happy in this world. Thus, I will oppose any system that inherently claims that "we suck" to push for "growth". We may all suck in many ways, but we may all grow and become better. I will only use the Enneagram as far as it involves personal growth in a positive way. I refuse to see myself and others as misbegotten and faulty. Some people are selfish, others are arrogant, others are envious, but you know what? All humans can be too, regardless type. Is it right to be proud of being selfish/envious/etc.? What's the value of finding faults within? Not everybody grows by being told they suck-some give up, and kill themselves-is that really what you would like to happen (you can blame them, but a life is a life)?
> 
> ...


Let me start by saying that I wish happiness and bliss for all, and that includes you. I consider myself a happy person, and like you I would like to be of any help to guide other people to bliss. For that reason I was off course very interested in what you bring to the table. I might learn a thing or two. 

It seems that your happiness is different from mine. I have a bad and annoying habit to cut through the rhetoric and listen to what is unspoken. And so I noticed a couple of things. Mind you, these are merely observations, no judgements and I am just another mortal, so take this as one of the many reflections of your presence and behavior, which nevertheless can be important, as it's important to check if all those beautiful virtues are also received as intended. 

One thing I noticed is that while you seem to wish to evoce a message of positivity and you love to display your virtues, -which is fine- it's often a mystery for me though what you mean, as so often you need the negative, or the 'evil' to define the positive or to position yourself on the positive virtuous 'heroic' side. 

For instance, you can define positivity positively and negatively. Positively would be something like: I choose to be positive, because I belief this provides me more opportunities than when I am negative. Or negatively: I choose to be positive, because I don't want to be a whiner that complains about everything.

So, authentic is 'not betraying yourself'. True love is 'not betraying/using others and dump them for another a week later'. Being true is not compromising your views. You are afraid you won't be able to be succesful while being true. You seem to believe that to be succesful one needs to compromise authenticity, be fake and betray oneself or others. 

_"As for authenticity, I just feel that people that are genuine sometimes get criticized for not being fake to "be successful", which I hate. That's why I said this affects my jobperformance/job search, because I refuse to "do what it takes" to "succeed" if it violates my integrity and authenticity."_

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/104267-my-answers-post2637466.html#post2637466

So while you like to claim to have a positive approach, and argue therefore dismiss a critical attitude towards the self-discovery tools you have chosen, or towards personality-types, or self-critical self-discovery tools like Enneagram-theory, you don't seem to be aware of your own negative attitude. You even called standing up for INFPs to be one of your life's 'crusades'. Yet you deny (cognitive) 'hostility' in your reply to criticism of Refugee's therapist. 

"Many people *hate* the MBTI, but some have *never gave it a legitimate chance* (many *"professionals,"* for instance), and it's often marred by *biased proponents* who *misuse *the tools. Your therapist is indeed *knowledgeable, but she doesn't know everything*-that's *her own perspective, limited by her innate dislike of the MBTI*. _Which is fine, right?_ _She can believe whichever way she likes. _Of course, there's much more to people than 4 letters! However, if you use the MBTI/Keirsey types as they were intended to, I can hardly see any con to it (much of the *"damage"* it can* "cause"* is due to *misuse*, not because it's a "totally off" theory.)"

Apparently it's ok to downplay the expertise of someone's therapist, (who Refugee clearly had in high regard), who was critical towards MBTI and how Refugee seemed to interpret it. In case anyone wonders how much info you needed to 'justify' such a harsh judgement:

http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/103427-other-types-feel-things-deeper-than-infp.html

And actually you do the same when you implicitely suggest more than once, that one needs to be fake and compromise one's authenticity in order to have succes. 

I personally have a different idea why other people are more succesful than me. They are probably better than me. Better skilled, more social intelligent, work harder, are smarter, etc. Because they don't spend so much time on a forum like this. I don't _envy _them, I am happy for them. I wish them a happy journey in life, as you often like to say to the posters here. Off course there are people who compromise to be succesful. But most succesful people I know work their butts off to be succesful. 

Don't get me wrong @_IcarusDreams_ . I feel sorry for the bad episodes in your life and I can only wish you good luck and succes. I think you made a step forward by reframing the look on yourself and on life. I don't think you are a bad person. But reframing can also block yourself to move forward. I don't think you are very open minded and that worries me, because that seems vital to me for any personal growth. I see a lot of negativity and hostility. And I don't think you seem to be aware of what the implications are of your own words, for people who think or do different than you, who you need (dare I say 'use') as a crutch to define your virtues and for your display of heroism.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> You completely misunderstood counterpassion. Allow me to explain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK so according to the Enneagram, life sucks for the Enneagram 4s and they cannot possibly be happy. I care for you, so that's why I tell you it's a LIE. I rather stand up for YOURSELF than your beloved theory, dear lady.

I doubt that people like Don Riso really want you to feel that you cannot be happy as Enneagram 4. It's saddening to even think that you've considered yourself as flawed.  I shall say no more on this matter, for I know you are not, and it really saddens my heart.

And do not ask me to stop saying "I am a 4" just because you cannot identify with the way I see things. In that way, the MBTI offers a cleaner slate, and doesn't pretend that people must be the same among individuals. I am not you, you are not me. I maybe four, but I went through some things in my life that forbid me to accept a life of misery as my defacto world view. You are an individual first and foremost, then 4, INFP, etc.

You see all of this as hostility, yet I am the one that is saddened the most by all of this, quite honestly. In the end, I care more about you than your theory. I do not think you'll be happy if you don't transcend the negative aspects of the Enneagram. I hope and WANT you to be happy, but if you think yourself as innately unhappy in life... what can you do to be happy?

Hate me if you will, but I won't stand for anybody telling you that you cannot attain ultimate happiness and peace with yourself. You deserve much better than being told you are defective. You are not, you are lovely. I am sorry but you ARE lovely. Take much care, kind individualist.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)




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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

Woah... I think there needs to be a timeout. 

You know what I sense.. I definitely sense that there could be an "all against icarusdream's" points. But I think this thread just highlights how different we all are. I mean, even without stating the obvious. There does not always need reassurances, even though at certain times when executed perfectly it is like a breathe of fresh air... That just means a strong emotional connection and sympathy or mutual understanding is needed in order for such a connection to exist. 

Sometimes to care and share experiences is indeed good, cos it does feel like a sort of group therapy, but in truth, isn't real friendships forged this way? To keep morale up, and together and to move forward together too. With a tool like a forum, there is often missing connections sometime. It is not necessarily a 2 way conversation. That is where it falls down... It can be an anchor but it cannot be everything though. 

Sometimes I am also weary of the things I say here, especially to younger people and it gives them less hope cos what they see is what they think the world is, and if I was brought up with sch an environment, ten it is soul destroying too. When I was young, a lot of people had been supportive of me cos they know the protocols.... of how to be responsible with one's social actions.


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## CoakJoints (Feb 2, 2012)

OrangeSoda said:


> Does anyone else ever feel this way? I'm like so over figuring out if I'm a Fe Fi Fo Fum Te Ti Ti Ho Ho. Looking at myself and others threw somebody elses lens. Sure I obviously agree that there are some benefits to it. There comes a point when it becomes unhealthy though. I already over think myself and others. I don't need a system like MBTI to enable me any further. I'm breakin' out of the system man. Who's coming with me? Does anyone else just get tired of thinking about themselves that way? Do you ever think that it could become unhealthy?
> 
> I just don't want to think of myself as an INFP, INFJ, ISFP, ENTJ 4w5 or whatever anymore. I just want to be me.


Just because you believe in the validity of MBTI doesn't mean you have to pigeon hole yourself into it.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@kaychivers 

I have nothing against you or Icarus. It's Icarus' close-mindedness that fueled my frustration, nothing more, nothing less. I'm well aware people have opposing opinions to mine and it doesn't bother me. You may agree with Icarus (and you expressed it and I didn't attack you for it), but you can't say he was open minded. No one agrees with you, lol. 

I also didn't attack you for showing your support to Icarus previously. It's only when you twisted the whole thing into a us vs. them situation, using words like 'mob mentality' and 'they're just jealous' that you prompted my aggressive reply. There is NO us. Disagreeing is not attacking/hating.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

IcarusDreams said:


> Feelings are beautiful, whether happy or sad. The things is I "am" a 4. I am not misunderstanding 4s, but encouraging them to view life as THEMSELVES, and not as we are "supposed" to see it, whether as 4s, INFPs, etc. I enjoy tragedy as well (am listening to a sad song right now because I love the way it makes me feel) but refuse to live in perpetual misery-I was meant to appreciate the beautiful side of life as well as its most tragic one.


I might be alone and no one might agree with me, but this quote is enough to show me he really does understand sorrow and joy. So I dont understand how you can say he is close minded and denying his negative feelings.

And I never did say anything about being jealous but that seems like a touchy issue for you. Being envious and jealous is 2 different things. To me, to envy others is seeing what others have and being happy for them and wanting to strive towards it.. where as being jealous is like I cant have this and instead, hating them for it.

Also, like I said earlier it just seemed like you were attacking him in your statements and that is totally different than stating a view point and that is where I got the whole you vs me thing from, also with your followers, gave me the vibe of your with us or against us feel.

And I am not discrediting people who are giving good advice and outlooks.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@kaychivers 

I don't have any followers. The thought is RIDCULOUS and plain childish. Just because they happen to be my friends and agree with me doesn't mean we're all 'against' Icarus. Let's not be paranoid. If you read well, eyenexepee actually ended up understanding Icarus' point, mimesis as well.

Anyway, further derailing this thread is totally useless. We agree to disagree, that's all.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

Lol.. I'm paranoid and childish. I'm over it. You're right.

@_Icarus_dream I'm sorry man, it wasn't supposed to be this way. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

kaychivers said:


> So I dont understand how you can say he is close minded and denying his negative feelings.


It's here:



IcarusDreams said:


> -I do not disregard our capacity to be at our lowest, nor that we can all be capable of being at our darkest-*I merely downplay it to the point that I make it irrelevant*, vs all the other wonderful things to be discovered about us. I find it insulting to loving 2s if they are told that they "must be" selfish in their actions. Regardless, healthy 2s are not selfish anyway, and shouldn't we all strive to be "healthy?"


There's a lot of denial going on about accepting ourselves as flawed. I see it all over the INFP subforums, well actually pretty much every subforum I've laid my eyes on, that people choose to believe only those lovely parts and ignore the tougher stuff. Now there is a lie lol. Selective perception.

It's all up to you, but I cannot deceive myself like that. My crappy sides are not irrelevant as I have to deal with them daily, and those I am in contact with have to deal with me, so I have responsibility to take care of myself. If I choose to downplay my weaknesses, I will never fully understand nor accept myself. It is a twist of truth and this truth will eventually catch up with me if I would ignore, reject, deny or downplay it, and I believe it will catch up with you if you do.

On the other hand, I see how it can empower people to bring out the bright side of life. That's fine, that's absolutely fine. As I said, I admire Icarus' relentless pursuit of happiness by emphasizing the bright side etc. But I'm absolutely far from being fine with how he goes about it.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> I like ice cream.. but if I had a choice between ice cream or a steak, I'd downplay ice cream and this does not mean I am ignoring it
> 
> Oh and also, yea.. darkness will always be around, but it's the light that pierces through the darkness.. kinda like how a lighthouse shines it's light so boats can find their way and not crash.
> 
> I am not claiming to be a lighthouse btw.


Because you downplay something does not mean you're ignoring it. It's coming to terms with it and because of that, it doesn't effect you as greatly as it does anymore.

I used to be worried about what people thought of me, and I still do at times. But, after coming to terms with that and fully understanding that I shouldn't let other people run my life. I am gradually becoming okay with it.

You're also not crediting everything else he has said in that post :T


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

kaychivers said:


> Because you downplay something does not mean you're ignoring it. It's coming to terms with it and because of that, it doesn't effect you as greatly as it does anymore.


You got it wrong. Downplaying something in order to make it irrelevant is a form of ignoring. Coming to terms with something is coming to accept something *for what it is* - not reducing it.

You used to be worried of what people thought of you and you've interpreted it as people running your life, while in reality, you are responsible for how you live your life. You worry? Stop worrying. Those people don't run your life, your worries do. I'm happy for you that you've taken matters in your own hands though.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

I guess I dont really like ice cream then -_-

EDIT: You just totally re edited your post. But thank you..

I talk to this guy who comes into my work all the time and we talk about religion and I'm always up to listening to him, but when he starts telling me that if I am not a believer of Jehovah, I am going to hell.. and at that point I just kinda stop listening. So it isn't just about my worries and the reality of it is, people do influence you and try to run your life through their views and I feel like this is what is happening here.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> Because you downplay something does not mean you're ignoring it. It's coming to terms with it and because of that, it doesn't effect you as greatly as it does anymore.


Oh come on. Downplaying flaws means lessening their importance to the point where you do not acknowledge them anymore. Icarus said himself that flaws are "irrelevant" to him. How is that helpful in terms of growth?



> You're also not crediting everything else he has said in that post :T


You're not crediting everything he said either.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> Lol yea seriously because you seem so defensive about it.. Okay since you seem to be taking such offense to this and how you go about saying things, to me when reading it totally comes off as an attack coupled with your meme. I can appreciate intellectual discussions and I know when it's happening and I guess maybe it is more directed towards you in that your either with me or against me, because you seem to be failing to see his point of view and expecting him to succumb to yours.. and I agree people were giving insights even if they were from opposite view points because that is something we can all appreciate and gain knowledge from.
> 
> Anyway.. I dont want to fight with you. All I really wanted to express was that I dont want Icaras to feel down for what he believes is right.. and obviously that was also taken the wrong way.


Can you explain 'taken the wrong way?'


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

Coming to terms, leads to not worrying about it, leads to downplaying.. which I think is the point he was trying to get across. He's not worried bout his flaws anymore, at the same time knowing what they are.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Can you explain 'taken the wrong way?'


In my original post, I just wanted to let him know that he is not alone in what he believes is right and shouldnt feel down about it.. because I could sense he was feeling sad about it. I could be wrong. But, then.. it turned into this big thing. And I dont want to be apart of it anymore.


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## HeyGirl (Nov 25, 2010)

@IcarusDreams By what I was saying I wasn't talking about a negative life-view at all (I was merely talking about flaws).
I think that humans need some sort of validation but not too much either because it may make them feel defective/ flawed in the first place (so you may actually validate them more by not having to validate them ). 

In my eyes flaws are nothing bad nor could they EVER change anything about your worth as a human being.
You could be as "flawed" and untalented at as many things as you like and still be awesome, whole and worthy a 100% of the time!

Maybe we see that differently and hearing about your story gives me some understandment of why you feel that way about flaws.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> In my original post, I just wanted to let him know that he is not alone in what he believes is right and shouldnt feel down about it.. because I could sense he was feeling sad about it. I could be wrong. But, then.. it turned into this big thing. And I dont want to be apart of it anymore.


But where is the enemy, the evil?

Actually it's just what this thread is about. 

I think that MBTI is (just) a theory, based on Jungs cognitive functions. The personality types are based on how information is perceived and processed. The descriptions are based on statistics and common denominator. It's not WHO we are, as a part of our identity, but just an explanation how our type tends to operate. We can use this theory to try and improve things, for instance communication with other types. There are certain 'typical' strengths and weaknesses that can occur as a result of this set of functions, respectively when it operates in a good way or in a bad way. 

Icarus beliefs INFP is who we are. MBTI is for him what helped him 'grow and appreciate yourself, others, and your world' And it seems it's so much become part of his identity, his self-concept, his understanding of the world, and self-worth, that any criticism to the theory, the INFP personality type, is met with hostility, downplayed as misunderstood or biased or demonized as heretics, haters, misusers, whatever, and encountered as one of his crusades in life, standing up for his defenseless INFP brothers and sisters.


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## CobaltBlueNote (May 15, 2012)

I'm so not over MBTI. I want it, I need it, I can't live without it, where can I get more of it? Gimme more MBTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!! :crazy:


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

No ones the enemy. I understand what the theories of MBTI and ennegrams are lol. What is being discussed here is how Icarus and I can see the good in others and ourselves and because we believe in this.. there's something wrong and we have to defend our views.. I wonder why that is.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

If I had flaws, I would totally accept them. I wouldn't just pretend that they weren't there :dry:


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

I def have flaws. I have a weird sense of humor and I dont care if I am the only one laughing  which kinda makes it irrelevant, but that means I'm in denial right?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> I never twisted your words, so please don't twist mine. And trust when I say I am in complete agreeance with you guys in that we all have flaws. But the difference is that because we can see the positive side of something, we are suddenly in denial? Lol.


Unlike Icarus I don't enjoy so much repeating myself. And I think I already answered that question. Also, you are the one who used rhetoric like 'mob', 'defend our views' etc. so I may put words in your mouth. Even when I seriously doubt you would agree with it.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

IcarusDreams said:


> I just took one of those Enneagram tests again, and I tested type 4 again, for what's it's worth. Please read the description below:
> 
> *Type Four
> The Individualist
> ...


What you have bolded can apply to anybody.
Being a Four isn't all about being creative, sensitive or "being inspired". 
This is why many people frequently mistype as Four.
Don't put all of your eggs in one basket when you're taking tests and reading descriptions online.
Tests are not very accurate. Most people that are naturally creative and inspired test as a Four. 
In fact, it's quite easy to test as a Four in general. It does not mean that you are one.
Finding your enneagram type involves introspection and allowing yourself to see some of the darkest parts of yourself. Tests and little descriptions online cannot do that for you.
Also, I do not know why you are derailing a thread, going to such great lengths to try to prove that you are a Four.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Unlike Icarus I don't enjoy so much repeating myself. And I think I already answered that question. Also, you are the one who used rhetoric like 'mob', 'defend our views' etc. so I may put words in your mouth. Even when I seriously doubt you would agree with it.


Right.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

moved post to Icarus' answers Enneagram.


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## bigtalljay (May 18, 2011)

I'm not over MBTI.

I'll readily admit that it's not perfect, and would maintain that no system we can devise will ever capture a complete understanding of our nature. But, despite this, I do find MBTI to be very useful in helping me understand things about me and others, as a starting point and a rigid guideline, not as some authority over who I am and how I am supposed to work. MBTI and other personality theories are, at best, rough conceptualizations of basic types.

But these conceptualizations are useful, if not for helping and understanding yourself and others, just for the pleasure of exploring and understanding ideas in system. I do find it at least interesting on an intellectual level, apart from any real application. It is a joy to think about these basic types and how they interact, love, and misunderstand each other. It's comforting to identify with these types, and especially, with other _real people_ who have similar ways of operating. It's been a delight to be on PerC, hearing from others who have similar or even markedly different points of view or modes of behavior, because it challenges me to understand others and to present myself in ways that can be understood by others.

If you've ever read Isabel's book, _Gifts Differing_, you can definitely detect an emphasis on strengths of types rather than weaknesses. Her words are for the most part warm, encouraging, and inspiring. Since she developed MBTI, it might follow that MBTI type descriptions tend to be somewhat flowery and "strengthy," which isn't good or bad, it's just the chosen emphasis.

In contrast, if you've ever read Lenore Thomson's _Personality Type_, the emphasis tends to be more balanced. I'm a little more than halfway through the book, getting deep into some type descriptions (based on dominant function), and I'm finding that she doesn't hold back on potential weaknesses of types. I think it goes to show that while we might be familiar with MBTI where it praises types for their strengths, there is equal potential to use the theory to point out weaknesses and potential pitfalls (which, according to the theory can often have their root in our undeveloped and unconscious functions). Lenore spends a good amount of time explaining how the Inferior and Tertiary functions can be trouble makers for us, and how we may need to make conscious efforts to use our secondary function when we are "stuck."

I found the ongoing discussion between @IcarusDreams and @kaleidoscope about "flaws" interesting. I'm not prepared to take sides (nor am I interested in taking them) on the issue since I know next to nothing about enneagram. But I know that both MBTI and enneagram (or any system) are going to give you a picture of both your strengths and your weaknesses, and personally, I find it valuable to consider both, for what they are worth. I may be more inclined place emphasis on my strengths (a stick-to-your-guns mentality) because I believe that to be my best investment. However, I feel that being unaware of or ignoring (I don't feel this is what Icarus was really suggesting) your weaknesses may not be a good approach. It's useful to me to know that sometimes my Inferior function is going to rear its ugly, neglected, unconscious, infantile head, and I'm going to be a complete asshole to someone I care about. Recognizing when this occurs can help me see it coming and consciously employ a better function (Lenore tends to very much recommend reaching for the Secondary to solve problems).

MBTI is still very useful and interesting to me. Someday I will probably dig into enneagram to see what it's all about. Anyone have a good book recommendation for that?


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

paper lilies said:


> What you have bolded can apply to anybody.
> Being a Four isn't all about being creative, sensitive or "being inspired".
> This is why many people frequently mistype as Four.
> Don't put all of your eggs in one basket when you're taking tests and reading descriptions online.
> ...


QFT. Thank you very much 

'Finding your enneagram type involves introspection and allowing yourself to see some of the darkest parts of yourself'

He's not very open to that, you see (hence the debate). He's an 'envy-less' Four. 

Even in his typing thread, I and others have suggested other types. He said something along the lines of 'I can see why you'd think I'm a 2/9 but really I'm a 4'. So, I'm baffled really.


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## snowbell (Apr 2, 2012)

bigtalljay said:


> MBTI is still very useful and interesting to me. Someday I will probably dig into enneagram to see what it's all about. Anyone have a good book recommendation for that?


 I am no expert but I keep seeing Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson's "The Wisdom of the Enneagram: The Complete Guide to Psychological and Spiritual Growth for the Nine Personality Types" being mentioned.


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## caraez (Mar 31, 2010)

MBTI came along at a time in my life when I felt misunderstood and lonely. I had started to grow bitter about society around me, hating who I now know are largely ES types and wondering what was wrong with me.

MBTI helped me understand how other people work. I knew people had different opinions and such, but I never came close to comprehending how people see the world in completely different ways - until MBTI. It helped me embrace who I am and understand how other people think, which was a major step in becoming a far more balanced, happier person. Understanding that other people think differently helped me get along with people more and understand society better. It doesn't necessarily fix the system, but understanding it helps me function in it a lot better within it. Plus it improved my manipulative tendencies. 

I still use it to understand other people a bit better, though I realize that the types are indefinite and such. But I do try to spread understanding of different ways of thinking - though I don't use MBTI to explain it. I just try to explain to the feeler judging the thinker his thought process a little bit so those around me can be more understanding and cooperative as well.

I believe that is the most valuable lesson of MBTI - understanding and tolerating how people think differently. Understanding how other people make decisions is the most important part of getting along, possibly. This is probably what we should all attempt to spread, rather than the complications of cognitive functions, types, etc.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

Dear Mr. @_bigtalljay_,

Thanks for not taking sides, and not being interested in perpetuating worthless arguments. I don't want you to be on my side, but on the side that will make you happy, as well as help you understand yourself and others better. You really understood the real meaning behind my words, and took no offense to them-and rightly so, for they were never meant to offend. Ms. Kaleidoscope is thinking that I deny the existence of personal areas of growth in our lives, which is far from what I stand for-the flaws thing is a touchy subject, however, because I don't like people to be told that they _cannot_ _possibly _be happy due to type and flaws. When all is said and done, I honestly believe we all in here agree that nevertheless, we should strive for personal growth, whetehr it is by focusing on what's "wrong" with you, or by cultivating and appreciating the beautiful in you you may be failing to see.

I disagree with Mr. eyeenexpee in that he thinks MBTI may make people feel "too good" about themselves, and stop realizing areas of personal growth they should work with, for reasons I have already stated (when you know what's good about you, it's easier to work with what needs work, rather than trying to fix "everything" that may not need fixing after all.) I often see many negative "I feel so bad as an INFP" threads than positive ones (including the infamous "what pisses me off about INFPs.") However, I don't honestly think he really disagrees with the ending I aim to achieve-beautiful, self-development. In my case, a "hey, you really suck" approach wouldn't have worked at all. I would be like "I already knew that-why tell it to me again?!" As I said before, I felt little reason to live during a short stretch during 2010. I was lucky I wasn't into the Enneagram-imagine if I read that "I was meant for sadness" back then? Do I need that kind of reinforcement that my life theoretically "sucked" back then? I needed to understand what was wonderful in me, and not be reminded that I had the tendency to see sadness/melancholy in everything (which I do, but have learned to cope with.) I believe we can all work to be better, but I don't think that it means that we cannot be content with all our current achievements as well. I don't even think Mr. Eye disagrees with that either.

I won't explain why, but I will make a short list of lies/misconceptions/assumptions about myself in this thread

-I deny flaws/ignorance is bliss (if you just read what I really typed, you wouldn't think that way.)
-I dislike the Enneagram. I only dislike feeling hopeless when overthinking your "dark side."
-I "want" to be a 4, so I "force it". Last year I thought for a few hours I was a 9, but then came back to 4w5. The last few weeks I've been studying it again, and it all seems to point me being a 4-even after answering this site's questionnaire, as well as another helpful one in one of Don Riso's books (which was not a multiple choice option style one.) I am a 4, but I may not display "envy", because I may not be envious (perhaps I was when I was a kid, but I simply don't remember and don't think that to be the case.) It's sad that such a thing should be offensive, for it only involves my life, and should not be taken as a personal attack, much less "close-mindedness" simply because I don't agree with it. If somebody's preaching a nine-headed hydra god to be the savior of mankind (no offense to the enneagram, I just thought about nine heads, and wasn't thinking about the 9 types), you cannot say I am close-minded for not converting to the hydra's faith. Nor would I care if you are a member of that religion. It's your life-live happily. If I am an "envy-less 4" why should you care? What's so annoying or offensive about it? Be happy for me instead, that I have found my own path towards my happiness. I will always be happy for you finding your own way as well, and you can bet I am being honest.
-"We are all INFPs, and that's that." That was a misperception. I always say, incessantly, if not everyday, that we are individuals, first and foremost, THEN INFP, Enneagram 4, 6, 9, etc. I defend those who are misunderstood as INFPs, and have never stated that INFPs are weaklings, nor need my defense. However, if I do see or sense typism, I will defend INFPs, as I would do any INTJ when they are labeled as necessarily "cold". Thereason it seems I am so INFP-biased is twofold-I understand life as an INFP, know how it feels like to be misunderstood, and it's the most abudant type in here. I also love words of reaffirmation, so you will continually read those from me, love it or hate it. However, I firmly believe that INFPs are not just 4 letters, and are well above being caged by stereotypes (including those of the Enneagram, for better or worse.) In that regards, I do feel similar to Ms OrangeSoda ("I just want to be me!") but I still do find the MBTI quite useful, as well as many other personality tools out there.

Before I am the recipient of any more hostility, let it be known that I was going to leave the forum tonight, because I honestly felt persecuted/disliked, and didn't want to be a burden to any of you for freely expressing the way I feel about things that are very important to me. I logged out after my previous post, cried a little, and took a nap, because I was mentally hugging many people whom I love in these forums, and telling them "thanks for all the beautiful times! You are such an amazing person! Keep dreaming higher!" I was saying goodbye to many of you in my mind, which brings tears to my eyes, even right now. However, it is not fair to either me or my friends that I leave this forum just because a few of you misunderstand me, my words, or my true intentions. I don't care if we disagree, that's fine right? I don't like these arguments, as they really weigh heavily in my soul, especially when I am being accused of things I am not (close-minded did hurt me a lot, because you won't meet a friend of mine that would agree with that at ALL.) I may be stubborn, but whem I am, it is mostly for the "better good", rather than trying to prove myself or my statements. I don't care if you agree, but please don't be offended anytime I express these things, because it's not as if I am going to stop beleiveing in them (the right for everybody to be themselves-the right for everybody to be happy.) I mean no hate, no argument, no semantics battles-I see little value in that. All I want for you all is that you are ultimately happy, in your own, custom way. Forgive me for not leaving, but I just don't think it was the proper course of action, especially becasue rarely I do have trouble with people in this beautiful forum (you old members know that), and this need not be a such an horrible precedent.


May you all be happy as you keep flying on the wings of your own dream. It may seem as if I want to oppose you for its own sake, but I really love you. Take much care-from my heart.


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## amethyst_butterfly (Mar 14, 2011)

I have read a couple of Ennegram books but I am still in the process of self-exploration. The Ennegram is quite complex and is not easy for everybody to figure out their type (and tri-type) right away. Each number share a couple of traits with other numbers so that is why some look alike. I see a lot of Type 4 characteristics in myself but I also identify with Type 6 and Type 5. There is also a little of Type 1 in me but I am not that much of a perfectionist in my everyday life. It could be that the wings of my types are very strong (4w5 for example). 

According to these statistics from 9types.com one of the best books and guides to help you figure out your type is : Essential Enneagram . I bough it for my e-reader last week and I have read the first pages and it is quite good but I have to read this book when I feel relaxed because I have been too tired lately. In the beginning it gives you 9 paragraphs in random order that describe each type and you have to pick the three paragraphs that you identify the most then it gives you a description of each type and it helps you verify and confirm your core type. It contrast the differences between types that look very similar. It also gives you advice on how to improve as a person according to your ennegram. It's a short book of 78 pages but it seems that it has good content. I hope it helps me confirm my type.

What's the Best Enneagram Test?

Amazon.com: Essential Enneagram: The Definitive Personality Test and Self-Discovery Guide -- Revised & Updated (9780061713163): David Daniels, Virginia Price: Books



There are also other books such as The Ennegram Made Easy, is a nice book for beginners but is too simplistic. It has a test too which consists of a list of characteristics and you have to check the ones that apply to you and then you compare the results. 

I also have read two books from Helen Palmer which are nice too but not for everyone. Some people have complained saying that these books have made them hate themselves because it focuses too much on the negative traits rather than the positives but these books have a lot of detailed information that goes deep on each type. According to Palmer each type had somewhat of a disfunctional childhood that made them become their Ennegram type. Her books are quite long "The Ennegram" has 309 pages and "The Ennegram in Love and Work" has 315 pages. Perhaps you may find your type with these.

There are plenty of E-gram books out there that are in my list of "books to read". Russo's books are highly recommended as well. There are so many things that I have to learn. 


I like this community http://www.goodreads.com/ because it gives you great book suggestions and reviews including MB and E-gram books. 





snowbell said:


> I am no expert but I keep seeing Don Richard Russo and Russ Hudson's "The Wisdom of the Enneagram: The Complete Guide to Psychological and Spiritual Growth for the Nine Personality Types" being mentioned.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@amethyst_butterfly

I suggest Character and Neurosis by Naranjo, as well as Maitri's Enneagram books if you want a nice read


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

IcarusDreams said:


> Mr. eyenexepee and everybody else,
> 
> I already knew the things that were supposed to be "wrong" with me. I was an expert at finding faults within-I need nobody else to deepen the wound. With the MBTI/Keirsey temperaments, I discovered it was perfectly OK to be me, which was VERY liberating (all that Rim stated above, I gree with.) I wasn't wrong-I was just different. And it's ok for all types to be different, even within themselves. Even 4s, although many believe they are not to live above misery, unfortunately. I grew not because I realized "the evil within", but because I was ignoring the beauty of my person, and my right to be myself, whether that is traditional, different, etc.
> 
> ...


I checked @kaleidoscope 's posts in different threads, including type-descriptions on-line, and even did a Google search, but I couldn't find anywhere stated that 4s* cannot be happy*, and I don't believe anyone ever said that someone would be *'all wrong'* according to either MBTI or Enneagram theory. 

Kalei just said that 4s have a '*negative way of viewing the world*', and the envy she refers to doesn't apply to all 4s. When she or others referred to *denial*, they didn't mean _ignoring life's problems_, but in this case not wanting to hear about typical flaws that according to this theory, someone needs to overcome or elaborate on, on his path to become healthy. 

Or in other words: in the process of *healing *oneself. 

But you want to be a healer *nòw*. You also assert that others ( @eyenexepee and everybody else ) seem to hold the belief to find happiness by '_dwelling _on their flaws'. Really? What made you think so? 

So I wonder if you can explain why these words seem to have been distorted -seemingly much to your advantage- in your reply to arguments that were made. 

Perhaps you are a bad listener? Or maybe selective memory...? 

Point is, @IcarusDreams ,it's all written and online, so you can check when you're not sure at any given time. You may check now, if you don't believe me. So, despite this pretty accurate collective on-line memory that is available, there seem to have been made some 'concessions' to reality and the integrity of the information along the way. The references you use in your arguments are not 'authentic', so to speak. 

Aside from finding an explanation for so much gone lost in translation, as a consequence this also renders your argument to become rather ill-founded.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

IcarusDreams said:


> I disagree with Mr. eyeenexpee in that he thinks MBTI may make people feel "too good" about themselves, and stop realizing areas of personal growth they should work with, for reasons I have already stated (when you know what's good about you, it's easier to work with what needs work, rather than trying to fix "everything" that may not need fixing after all.)


Wow really. -.- 

Don't twist my words like you twist almost each and everything that you come upon to suit your views and cause. If anything, *you* are perpetuating this stupid discussion - have you not seen me say I took a step back? I summarized and brought it back to where we started from. I keep trying to respect your views and mine while explaining what is different. I literally quoted you to just show you what you write - for real. You perpetuate this discussion by replying each and every time, each and every single time someone says something that doesn't fit your alley or doesn't go down your road. Notice how you wrote "Again" and "Again" and "Again".

Are you blind to this? You keep saying "If only people read my posts, then they would think/believe that..." - this is arrogant, and you know why? Because you believe so hard that you write so well and that you are so 'pure and true' that people must see the 'truth' as you see it. You don't write that well, and though I believe your pursuit of happiness for everyone on itself is pure and true, you yourself do not always take this road. Or you wouldn't be twisting my words now, would you?

I keep saying it: take a holistic approach. Take both the good and the bad. Don't make both sides into what they are not and what they cannot be, whether it is downplaying or being too optimistic. People are finite. People are human.

Remember that Icarus' feathers of his wings were held together by wax and that flying too close to the sun screwed him over. The mark of the immature man is that he wants to nobly die for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one.

I've been really patient thus far but you're pushing it now. Don't twist my words again.

Also you spelled my name wrong.

If you want to leave the forum, I'll consider it a loss, like I said before. But don't expect me to have your back if you twist my words.


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## Le Beau Coeur (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes! I know how you feel and I totally agree, thank you for this great post.


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## bigtalljay (May 18, 2011)

IcarusDreams said:


> Before I am the recipient of any more hostility, let it be known that I was going to leave the forum tonight, because I honestly felt persecuted/disliked, and didn't want to be a burden to any of you for freely expressing the way I feel about things that are very important to me.


I'd rather not have anyone leave as I appreciate having several different points of view that help refine my own. I value a lot of things you have to say as well as those who may have a different perspective. There are a lot of good and knowledgeable people here, and very seldom would I consider anyone a "burden," even if I disagree. Personally speaking. I'm glad you decided not to leave as I do value the encouraging angle you seem to take.

For what it's worth...


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

IcarusDreams said:


> -I "want" to be a 4, so I "force it". Last year I thought for a few hours I was a 9, but then came back to 4w5. The last few weeks I've been studying it again, and it all seems to point me being a 4-even after answering this site's questionnaire, as well as another helpful one in one of Don Riso's books (which was not a multiple choice option style one.) I am a 4, but I may not display "envy", because I may not be envious (perhaps I was when I was a kid, but I simply don't remember and don't think that to be the case.) It's sad that such a thing should be offensive, for it only involves my life, and should not be taken as a personal attack, much less "close-mindedness" simply because I don't agree with it. If somebody's preaching a nine-headed hydra god to be the savior of mankind (no offense to the enneagram, I just thought about nine heads, and wasn't thinking about the 9 types), you cannot say I am close-minded for not converting to the hydra's faith. Nor would I care if you are a member of that religion. It's your life-live happily. If I am an "envy-less 4" why should you care? What's so annoying or offensive about it? Be happy for me instead, that I have found my own path towards my happiness. I will always be happy for you finding your own way as well, and you can bet I am being honest.


What's annoying about it is that you are insisting on using a theory and applying it to yourself when you supposedly don't even fit the criteria. What's also annoying about it, is that you insist on criticizing the theory and rejecting it just because you have transcended it, according to you. What's even MORE annoying about it, is that you are twisting my words and NOT LETTING IT GO.

Like @mimesis said, I never once stated that Fours are supposed to be unhappy, or that you must be miserable to be a Four. I'm pretty happy and I'm a Four. Actually, the only thing that makes you a 4 are both the basic fear and the basic motivation: losing identity/meaning, and finding your identity respectively. Not just for the hell of it by the way, but for very specific Four reasons that I have posted about incessantly before only to have you ignore them.

That said, your depressive episode that you keep talking about is NOT indicative of being a 4. It's indicative of depression, no more and no less. In fact, mood and personality disorders are one of the recurrent reasons for mistypes. If you're depressed or borderline, you are NOT a 4. If you're schizoid, you are not a five. Your perception of the world, your motivations are all distorted. So just because you happened to feel worthless and unhappy because of your depression, leading you to wallow in misery for some time, does *not* mean you're a 4. 

That's all. Yet again you have derailed the thread for your own crusade promotion, and frankly it's becoming ridiculous.


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## Belovodia (Sep 12, 2011)

eyenexepee said:


> Everybody Senses, iNtuits, Thinks and Feels. How you use Fi is what makes it useful. Fi on its own is kinda useless. See what I'm saying? ^^


I can see how Fi might be viewed as a useless function on it's own, and I'm not expert on
functions, but I don't know how I could have dealt with all the complexities and subtleties
of raising kids without it.

Perhaps it's different for males, or perhaps we simply do not understand introverted
feeling properly.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

Belovodia said:


> I'm no expert on the cognitive functions, but I doubt Fi is useless on its own.
> 
> I raised by kids mostly by using Fi and I think it was fantastic for dealing with all the nuances and
> complexities required in raising children. And they seem to respond well to it.
> ...


If you were an individual functioning on only Fi, you wouldn't function (because you would only be capable of judging with Fi). That's how I mean it. ^^ 

I do not for one second doubt you mainly use Fi, as much as I do not doubt you also use Ne, Si and Te as well.

Also I meant to say that Fi is as useful as you make it, and I'm sure you have found your ways.  I hope @_DarwinsBastard_ will find his ways too.

In discussions and analysis of behavior, we find easy ways to single out a function, while in reality, the functions do not work alone.


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## Vicissitude (Jun 3, 2012)

I need to re-explain myself on my thoughts when it comes to this thread. What I wrote was stream of conscious word vomit.  That's what I get for posting when I'm too tired to write and in a sleep deprived state. I do care about MBTI in the sense that it can help me learn more about myself and I see it as one of many tools for self discovery. If I didn't care about self discovery I probably wouldn't be on this forum. 

What I don't understand is people becoming obsessed with MBTI and stressing themselves out. Instead of being a tool for growth it becomes a way for some people to pigeon hole themselves. I just don't know why people do that.

When it comes to the INFJ thing, I only wonder if I'm that type because I get premonitions, hunches, insight and answers that come to me out of nowhere. I usually see the INFJ described that way not the INFP.

My opinion on the dispute that's going on is that I can everyone's point. I enjoy IcarusDream's post and admire his optimism but he sometimes seem to refuse to acknowledge or downplay the dark side so to speak. Acknowledging your negative qualities is important and you shouldn't downplay it, that can come back to haunt you and it can prevent self growth. I would know.

I hope my post make more sense now.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

Vicissitude said:


> What I don't understand is people becoming obsessed with MBTI and stressing themselves out. Instead of being a tool for growth it becomes a way for some people to pigeon hole themselves. I just don't know why people do that.
> 
> When it comes to the INFJ thing, I only wonder if I'm that type because I get premonitions, hunches, insight and answers that come to me out of nowhere. I usually see the INFJ described that way not the INFP.


Your post made sense and I think your previous one did as well.

I have thought of using the saying "pigeon holing" as well but it's not entirely accurate. Well perhaps it depends on where you're coming from. I see pigeon holing as dividing into boxes, and yes people do that but I think the underlying motive, more often than I wish, is that people look for something to blame outside themselves. "I'm an INFP thus I am messy and deeply emotional." Or: "I'm an INxJ thus I'm anal and precise." Through such, they create something that is outside themselves and they can blame it or 'prove' that they have no control over it. "I can't help being an ENFJ". Or they want to distance themselves from certain associations: "I cannot be a dominant or auxiliary S-user, because..." Etc etc.

The descriptions of the Ni 'mystery' often ends up in those magical words like premonitions, hunches, insight and answers. Not saying that you're guilty of that, I'm saying many descriptions idealize or glorify Ni. In reality it's just one of the two forms of iNtuition. Turned outwards (Ne) it is great at perceiving patterns, the bigger picture, new ideas and what not; turned inwards (Ni) it is pretty much the same thing but colored by an internal referencing frame (of which people say that it is built up by Se). That's why they say Ne is rather divergent and Ni is convergent. Ne is more about possibilities and Ni is more about probabilities. 

Perhaps you're an INFJ, I don't know. If you'd like to find out, one of the things you could try is figuring out your inferior, if you haven't yet. Fi-dom is accompanied by Te-inf ([INFP] Recognizing the Inferior Function in IFPs), Ni-dom is accompanied by Se-inf (http://personalitycafe.com/infj-art...ress-brings-out-infjs-hidden-personality.html).


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

eyenexepee said:


> Wow really. -.-
> 
> Don't twist my words like you twist almost each and everything that you come upon to suit your views and cause. If anything, *you* are perpetuating this stupid discussion - have you not seen me say I took a step back? I summarized and brought it back to where we started from. I keep trying to respect your views and mine while explaining what is different. I literally quoted you to just show you what you write - for real. You perpetuate this discussion by replying each and every time, each and every single time someone says something that doesn't fit your alley or doesn't go down your road. Notice how you wrote "Again" and "Again" and "Again".
> 
> ...



Dear Sir,

The discussion is indeed stupid, but I was never accusing you of anything.

Also, while I did repeat a lot of the same things over and over, wasn't out of pride, but because I was misunderstood, and to be honest, it hasn't stopped. I have tried to make it clear, and some still don't get what I really stand for. I am the one who feels as his words are being twisted to fit their criteria of "how things work." It's fine, why don't people let me believe "all the foolishness" I want rather than to find fault with it, even to the point of changing the original intent and meaning of my words? For me, it's important to be understood, because I don't write with double meanings, or to troll, but just to express something really important to me. If I say people/INFPs are lovely, I don't want it to be totally distorted for it to mean that people have nothing to work with/develop in their lives-I am not denying anything, I am moving on to the next personal development step.

I never meant to mispell your name, and I don't want to be offenssive at all, but if I did, it was totally unintentional, but because it's long and hard to remember (for me at least, please forgive me). I have to think a lot when writing your name. I thought Mr. Eye was a better alternative? Why would I mispell your name just to annoy you, and why should it be that offensive? Really, do you believe I have something against you, especially if you read my last post about you? You took it personally (twisting your words) but that was far from what I was doing. You did say something to the effect that you were responsible for people in your life, and therefore needed to see "flaws" in yourself to be aware of them and live happily/responsibly with them (something which I stand for), and that the MBTI often emphasizes the positive, which can make you "ignore" these flaws. I never said you were anti-MBTI, or even insulted you-you did me no harm, and I don't even attack those who attack me in general, but try to make them realize what I am really saying.

Simply put, this is a thread of misunderstandings, because we cannot relate to certain values of each other, and we are assuming too much about each other's points of views. Ms. Kaleidoscope gets offended because the Enneagram is very important to her, and thinks it a travesty for me to type myself as a 4 when it doesn't fit her value/belief system about the Enneagram. And I have never been hostile to her, but it seems I may have misunderstood a very important principle to her-that 4s see things negatively, which I translate to "4s can't be happy, if they are not able to see beneath their darkness." I did ask her to clarify her position, and she said "just stop" as if I was maliciously trolling her. Her fixation principle about the virtue of contentment is the one thing I couldn't agree on, and I hope she just lets me disagree with it rather than labeling me as close-minded-without really knowing me in real life. At that moment, I realized it was a wasted effort, because nothing will convince her or many of you of what I am saying, nor I think it's clearly understood-if I want to make it clear, and repeat it over and over and over and over, it is because I feel misunderstood, and I feel as if many in here are twisting my words all the time as well, so I do feel attacked, quite frankly. Even if we misunderstand each other, can't we do so in peace? Why the hostility; do you really think I want to argue this stuff? Since the right to ourselves and our happiness it's part of my "credo", it stands to reason that I will ask questions whenever I see those rights threatened. It's not personal, nor is it business-it's about values.

I feel sad I made you angry, because I did not mean to. It boggles my mind that you would think that I have something personal against you-why would I? Same goes with Ms. Kaleidoscope and the others. What's the point of arguments and trying to prove yourself right? I don't want to be "right", but at least, I want my statements to be clear, that's all. At least you realize how I feel after all the (perceived) attacks on this thread-it's horrible, especially when it's most unwarranted and you hate debate yourself.

I doubt I will be "better understood" about this statement, but since I usually stand up for others when they are being attacked, and I was backing down from defending myself, I had to step in and do it for myself as well. I know you were not attacking me, though-and believe me, attacking you or your statements was far from my mind. 

Ultimately, what I think about you or you think about me isn't nearly as important as how we feel about ourselves. I just wish to be "hated" for the things I really believe in, rather than by things people believe I believe in. I hate it when somebody is a "villain" because his/her words have been twisted, and people start forming opinions about them based on bias or conjecture. You can hate me all of you want, but I never really hated you, nor were my words ever meant to be destructive/disruptive in any way, much less for their own sake. I have a good impression on most people in here, and we shouldn't let that die on foolish arguments over personality theories, quite honestly.


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## 3053 (Oct 14, 2009)

I feel so strongly about the OP yet I just don't have much to say. 

We're all too beautiful for the whole MBTI system, way too beautiful to be boxed off. Humans come in an infinitive number of varieties, which is significantly significantly more than sixteen.


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## snowbell (Apr 2, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> If you were an individual functioning on only Fi, you wouldn't function (because you would only be capable of judging with Fi). That's how I mean it. ^^
> 
> I do not for one second doubt you mainly use Fi, as much as I do not doubt you also use Ne, Si and Te as well.
> 
> ...


That's correct - that's why the dominant function has to be balanced out an always on an axis with its polar opposite . For example Se and Ni - Se being the perception of things immediately present, and Ni being the perception of possibilities in the future and what could happen (to grossly simplify it). @LiquidLight likened the dominant/inferior correlation to seeing a seesaw, but only being able to see one of the people who's sitting on one end. 

Even MBTI allows for this by making the dominant be supported by the auxiliary, which while different (ie not polar opposite) is still differently directed to the dominant, and works at balancing the person in the other direction, for example in an ISxJ it's Si - Fe, Si being the counterpoint to Ne, and Fe being the counterpoint to Ti, and both together giving the person a means of judging and perceiving. 

To surmise I agree with @eyenexepee - I don't see how the functions are useless, and they give you a means of understanding and navigating the world. They can be useful but it will of course take time - a LOT of time...


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Neverontime said:


> :shocked: I'm not boring! I'm misunderstood.
> 
> @_mimesis_ write me a list and I'll choose some good ones for myself, take a few off your hands :wink:


That's awesome Never....Let me see...Well, I got dissipated escapists, or swaggering if you like. Or you can have impulsive and infantile, that probably fares well with your game addiction, don't you think? I also got patronizing, or megalomania if that's more your style. Or you say I'm going hardcore, feeling omnipotent...then I could give you anal-compulsive, to balance things out a bit. And off course flamboyant exaggerations, a classic. Always does well, you can combine that with practically everything. Oh and substance abuse is included when you take 3 or more...

=)


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

I guess I can identify with the OP, but maybe on a slightly different note.

I've realized that the MBTI is broken in the fact that everybody perceives the functions differently. I mean, one person can perceive my issue as being Introverted AND Extraverted whatever and can provide what seems like logical backup explanation. There is so much bias associated with it as well... I'm sick of Sensors = bad and Intuitives = good, Feelers = illogical messes and Thinkers = emotionless jerks.... ESFJs being annoying as heck, or ISTJ being logical tightwads (by the way, please realize that I do not agree with this stuff... but examples of what I see almost every day). There is so much dynamic to every person and we still use all 8 functions to some degree! Without our differences, we couldn't accomplish what we've been able to in our lifetimes... in the lifetime of the world. I mean, I realized yesterday if the whole world was like me... we'd likely still be in caveman days! People need to see the beauty in differences; just because somebody is different and we don't understand how they think doesn't make them bad at all.

Anyways, my $.02


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## Vicissitude (Jun 3, 2012)

Thank you for those links. Based on what I read I would be an INFJ since I relate to Se more than Te. I especially relate to what the INFJ is like in a grip. I have to do some reading on this type now.



> I have thought of using the saying "pigeon holing" as well but it's not entirely accurate. Well perhaps it depends on where you're coming from. I see pigeon holing as dividing into boxes, and yes people do that but I think the underlying motive, more often than I wish, is that people look for something to blame outside themselves. *"I'm an INFP thus I am messy and deeply emotional." Or: "I'm an INxJ thus I'm anal and precise." Through such, they create something that is outside themselves and they can blame it or 'prove' that they have no control over it. "I can't help being an ENFJ". Or they want to distance themselves from certain associations: "I cannot be a dominant or auxiliary S-user, because..." Etc etc.*


I think I might be coming from the same point of view as you. When I say pigeon holing I see it as people placing themselves inside a small restrictive box. The part in bold in is what I had in mind when I thought of people pigeon holing themselves. Stereotype might be a better way to describe what I mean.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

mimesis said:


> That's awesome Never....Let me see...Well, I got dissipated escapists, or swaggering if you like. Or you can have impulsive and infantile, that probably fares well with your game addiction, don't you think? I also got patronizing, or megalomania if that's more your style. Or you say I'm going hardcore, feeling omnipotent...then I could give you anal-compulsive, to balance things out a bit. And off course flamboyant exaggerations, a classic. Always does well, you can combine that with practically everything. Oh and substance abuse is included when you take 3 or more...
> 
> =)


No, I wanted a list of flaws. Not a list of fun things to do.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

This entire thread is INFPs. I love it.

In any case, I agree. I gave up on MBTI before I even got too into it. That's why I'm "Unknown Personality." I just enjoy talking to people here sometimes.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

I will answer you this last time because I am announcing that I'm going to stop talking with you in this thread. We keep going circles and I've grown tired of it. To do so unannounced is not my style, so here are my last words.



IcarusDreams said:


> The discussion is indeed stupid, but I was never accusing you of anything.


So... How does this:



eyenexepee said:


> So I guess I could take this moment and take a step back. All in all, the MBTI and Enneagram are limited because they can only go so far. Nonetheless we can take something useful from it. Definitely the parts in both MBTI and Enneagram that aren't about rainbows, roses, colorful ponies and whatnot. We can take the negative parts in the explanations and descriptions to inspect our own behavior and learn how to deal with them (/downplay if you must). They are _not_ there to limit us in our happiness nor are they there to intentionally beat us down, but *to help us find the truth* about ourselves, no matter how ugly or beautiful.
> 
> We are not infinite; it is because we can know our boundaries that we can find our freedom.


Turn into:



IcarusDreams said:


> I disagree with Mr. eyeenexpee *in that he thinks MBTI may make people feel "too good" about themselves, and stop realizing areas of personal growth* *they should work with*, for reasons I have already stated (when you know what's good about you, it's easier to work with what needs work, rather than trying to fix "everything" that may not need fixing after all.)


If there is any accusation going on in here, it is me accusing you of twisting my words, given the evidence above. Accuse me if you will, say you abhor accusing so much, feign innocence, excuse yourself for not intending something which you do regardless etc - I don't care: from now on I'm ignoring your posts in this thread as I intend to stop this conversation between us, for the sake of this thread.

You see, we can do this over and over, this dance of you replying to my reply and me replying to what you reply, but we're not helping anyone with this. I spend too much time and energy doing this lame dance with you, time I could invest in helping people out with understanding MBTI and whatnot. I imagine you too could use your time and energy for better things.

Perhaps we'll talk again in a different thread. Let's agree to disagree. For now, 'have a nice journey'.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Neverontime said:


> No, I wanted a list of flaws. Not a list of fun things to do.


...at the expense of others, off course.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

WolfStar said:


> This entire thread is INFPs. I love it.
> 
> In any case, I agree. I gave up on MBTI before I even got too into it. That's why I'm "Unknown Personality." I just enjoy talking to people here sometimes.


It was moved from infp subforum. Don't know why. Well I can understand why, but the OP retired. Would be kinda ironic if this ends up as a 'sticky'. But maybe she was the first one ever to start a thread on this topic.


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## HeyGirl (Nov 25, 2010)

IcarusDreams said:


> It is releveant, due to the following-you claim that if I am a "real 4", I must be unhealthy because I am in "denial mode", with a caricature of the virtue of contentment. That only screams "4s can't be happy-they can _think _they are happy, but either they are deluded or not really 4s."


I've always interpreted that there are two types of "happy" fours: The healthy ones and the unhealthy ones (counterpassion).



By the way I have no clue why following is being brought up again and again: (dwelling/ focussing on your flaws, negative life-view, no possibility to be happy because you're flawed etc.). None of us ever talked about that?? Actually quite the opposite :/
We shouldn't read what we wish to read just to make our own points shine more brightly. Maybe it wasn't done on purpose, but it's still annoying.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

mimesis said:


> It was moved from infp subforum. Don't know why. Well I can understand why, but the OP retired. Would be kinda ironic if this ends up as a 'sticky'. But maybe she was the first one ever to start a thread on this topic.


Oh. Well that explains it. I doubt she's the first to say she's moving on from MBTI, haha.


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## Marac (Mar 26, 2012)

I somewhat agree.

People emphasize the validity of MBTI too much on these forums. 

Nope, just because you are an intuitive doesn't make you clever.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

eyenexepee said:


> There's a lot of denial going on about accepting ourselves as flawed. I see it all over the INFP subforums, well actually pretty much every subforum I've laid my eyes on, that people choose to believe only those lovely parts and ignore the tougher stuff. Now there is a lie lol. Selective perception.
> 
> It's all up to you, but I cannot deceive myself like that. My crappy sides are not irrelevant as I have to deal with them daily, and those I am in contact with have to deal with me, so I have responsibility to take care of myself. If I choose to downplay my weaknesses, I will never fully understand nor accept myself. It is a twist of truth and this truth will eventually catch up with me if I would ignore, reject, deny or downplay it, and I believe it will catch up with you if you do.


This is where I got from that you seemed to think that the MBTI might make people feel to happy about themselves, that they are unable to see areas of their lives they could improve. It was NOT meant as an insult, nor an attack, and I thought you believed the above. I wasn't meaning to twist your words, but I thought that was your position (I disagreed with it because I see focus on the negative on many INFP forums, not delusional, we-are-so-happy talk as you've found-IME, people usually emphasize their weaknesses and problems.) I actually don't see anything wrong with it, so I don't see why you feel as if I hated you/was attacking you on purpose. I followed that immediately with praise about you and what you really aim to do. All in all, I was not referring to you negatively, and you made it look like a conflict, me against you, evilly and purposefully twisting your words. To what purpose, though? If disenchantment with the positive aspects of the MBTI led you to appreciate the Enneagram better, why should I find fault with that, even if I would disagree?

Since my words have been twisted beyond repair as well, I understand your feelings, but at least do know that I bear you no ill-will, no matter what you think the facts behind my motivations are.

Please don't reply, especially if it angers you further. Take much care and have an inspiring and productive day.


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## DarwinsBastard (Apr 27, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> If you were an individual functioning on only Fi, you wouldn't function (because you would only be capable of judging with Fi). That's how I mean it. ^^
> 
> I do not for one second doubt you mainly use Fi, as much as I do not doubt you also use Ne, Si and Te as well.
> 
> ...


maybe some day.

I mean, maybe I'm in denial, I just love the feeling of not caring what people think when I'm in Te mode. The part I hate is coming out of it, where I get to feel (overly) bad about simply voicing an opinion. Other people aren't apologetic for holding (often stupid and unfounded) opinions (I know, that probably sounds arrogant), and neither should I feel the need to be, that is how I experience my Fi, as a hair-triggered empathy reflex that causes me to back down in situations when I should be holding my ground and explaining my stance. I don't begrudge it for allowing me to identify with others, but allowing it to rule my behaviour just makes me a spineless jackass, volley my opinion out, hide behind a wall and say sorry before someone has a chance to rebut.


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

HeyGirl said:


> I've always interpreted that there are two types of "happy" fours: The healthy ones and the unhealthy ones (counterpassion).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, at least your explained it, Ms. Heygirl-the reason it was being brought back time and time again is because I thought some people think that 4s can't be happy "by nature". You just explained it better, and I need say no more then-4s can be happy, or _think_ they are happy, perhaps by something akin to escapism/denial? Which I would clearly oppose. But as you said, they CAN be really happy as well, which was what I thought was being put in question (I did ask for an answer earlier, and nobody provided it.)

Take care, this is not a conflict worth getting yourself upset about. I sincerely doubt we really disagree, at least not in principle.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

mimesis said:


> ...at the expense of others, off course.


Never at the expense of others. :wink:


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## IcarusDreams (Apr 23, 2011)

DarwinsBastard said:


> maybe some day.
> 
> I mean, maybe I'm in denial, I just love the feeling of not caring what people think when I'm in Te mode. The part I hate is coming out of it, where I get to feel (overly) bad about simply voicing an opinion. Other people aren't apologetic for holding (often stupid and unfounded) opinions (I know, that probably sounds arrogant), and neither should I feel the need to be, that is how I experience my Fi, as a hair-triggered empathy reflex that causes me to back down in situations when I should be holding my ground and explaining my stance. I don't begrudge it for allowing me to identify with others, but allowing it to rule my behaviour just makes me a spineless jackass, volley my opinion out, hide behind a wall and say sorry before someone has a chance to rebut.


Dear Sir,

I identify with that a lot, as I used to (and still do to some extent) refuse to defend my opinion, just for the sakes of avoiding to hurt feelings/empathy, etc. In truth, sometimes it's not worth it to voice/defend our opinion if our audience is close-minded, or if you see no point in discussing it further. Like discussing politics with a close-minded party member (I hate politics myself, so this is just an example.) So in a way, it is a virtue and can in many ocassions save you from needless conflict. However, there are times in which you must hold your ground, and stand up for what you believe in, which I am SURE you are more than able to do. You don't seem "weak" to me at all. I doubt you will change too much and start offending people left and right. But it's nice to stand up for your opinion, especially if it's very valuable to you, or even helpful for others to listen to.

I used to be SO afraid of hurting others by expressing how I really felt about things. I think it will change over time for you as well, Mr. Darwinbastard. Remember, it is OK, and you have the right to believe as you do as much as every other person in this world does. At the worst of cases, people won't share our opinion, but if you were nice about it, and they were still hurt/offended, it's really not on your ballpark, and not your fault/doing.


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## Extraverted Delusion (Oct 23, 2011)

Its helpful in the sense that it can draw a clearer picture for you when you meet someone.

"There's something about that person that draws me closer" can be simplified in Jungian/MBTI terms. I think it takes a little spice out of life though, but consider personalities malleable and not static and you're *sanely* using a system merely for reference.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Honestly, I've been over the MBTI for years (I get sweaty even venturing into the behavioral side of this stuff - it's disgustingly superficial and as Annie Paul Murphy's "Cult of Personality" book put it best, this stuff has no respect for individuals or individuality within type, so it goes from psychological to behavioral (well, actually abuses the concept of behavior), neither of which is compatible - every good psychologist knows this). I loathe the focus on behavior in it (as well as the stereotypes, which do a horrible job of reassuring people that they're just meant to conjure impressions to give credence to the theory, rather than pose as some kind of authoritative truth on what is "the most-so-and-so type" - yeah, like their really is a "true INTP" or "true INFP," etc. archetype that epitomizes the type that exists), which is very deceiving since,

A. Type is very subtle and transcends behavior (after all, it's more about reasoning and not all that much about PERSONALITY as we know it (as in, it really shouldn't have much of an impact on the adjectives we use to label people with other than adjectives that basically allude directly to the JCFs) - frankly, the enneagram is the much better system in this department (so, I get the idea from Jung and such that most of what we actually call "personality" is "persona" - after all, you can have two people of the same type who can't relate to each other much at all, while two people of very different types are BFFs and complement each other perfectly - for instance, my twin is an INTP and most of her friends have been Fe types - heh, so much for the "inferior function" getting in the way) - I'm pretty sure Jung originated it as "psychological types" rather than "personality types" for a reason.

B. You can't just label something as "true" until you know the basis of what you're looking for, which has to be theoretically derived - the MBTI pretty much just labels people with little regard for why much of what they say is "true" other than because they say so, which is abusive psychology if I've ever seen it.

C. The focus on "abilities" in this stuff makes me wretch - the only place I really see much correlation between type and noteworthy ability would be the dominant function - the rest is probably just at the mercy of the individual - I've seen people whose tertiary functions outdo those with those certain dominant functions, etc. The closest the functions even get to being "real" in my eyes would be basically as a measure of psychological inclinations, which are largely the result of the dom/inferior functions, rather than much of anything about the auxiliaries. I have yet to see anyone who "sucks" with the tertiary function! I've seen people who suck on an aux. and tert. level, and people who are great on both levels.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

OrangeSoda said:


> Does anyone else ever feel this way? I'm like so over figuring out if I'm a Fe Fi Fo Fum Te Ti Ti Ho Ho. Looking at myself and others threw somebody elses lens. Sure I obviously agree that there are some benefits to it. There comes a point when it becomes unhealthy though. I already over think myself and others. I don't need a system like MBTI to enable me any further. I'm breakin' out of the system man. Who's coming with me? Does anyone else just get tired of thinking about themselves that way? Do you ever think that it could become unhealthy?
> 
> I just don't want to think of myself as an INFP, INFJ, ISFP, ENTJ 4w5 or whatever anymore. I just want to be me.


I understand what you mean and I'm glad you have been able to finally find your identity without needing to conform to systems.
Goodbye.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

I saw this quote online and thought of this thread.  



> If the truth speaks directly to your heart, listen closely and embrace the experience. There is no need to push your ideas or beliefs on others... Everyone is at a different phase along their journey, and equally deserve respect for their point of view.
> 
> If opportunities present themselves when curiosity and willingness to listen unfold. Simply utilize these windows, and speak from your heart, with no attachments or associated ownership of your projected concepts...
> ~Benjamin Green​


I also wanted to say that, it is odd to view it this way, but, many members here use the mbti and wears it as a badge. If we step away and see it for what it is...."it's a label".... if we do not apply these words to people, then we are just people. Going about our everyday life. Cos we are just it. If someone smiles at me, I may smile at them. I won't judge and predefine information or make assumptions about them. I can ask them questions about themselves.... I should not use a single word that they say to then bring up a whole scenario or story about the person. Cos that story, and that memory belongs in history of another encounter. Each person has a unique past. We should listen to each other, rather than to give things with labels all the time... Because, what exactly does knowing these labels achieve in the grand scheme of things ?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

IcarusDreams said:


> This is where I got from that you seemed to think that the MBTI might make people feel to happy about themselves, that they are unable to see areas of their lives they could improve. It was NOT meant as an insult, nor an attack, and I thought you believed the above. I wasn't meaning to twist your words, but I thought that was your position (I disagreed with it because I see focus on the negative on many INFP forums, not delusional, we-are-so-happy talk as you've found-IME, people usually emphasize their weaknesses and problems.) I actually don't see anything wrong with it, so I don't see why you feel as if I hated you/was attacking you on purpose. I followed that immediately with praise about you and what you really aim to do. All in all, I was not referring to you negatively, and you made it look like a conflict, me against you, evilly and purposefully twisting your words. To what purpose, though? If disenchantment with the positive aspects of the MBTI led you to appreciate the Enneagram better, why should I find fault with that, even if I would disagree?
> 
> Since my words have been twisted beyond repair as well, I understand your feelings, but at least do know that I bear you no ill-will, no matter what you think the facts behind my motivations are.
> 
> Please don't reply, especially if it angers you further. Take much care and have an inspiring and productive day.


Icarus, how can you come to that conclusion? Where does he even suggest people on the forum are happy? You make that up just now, just like that for no reason. So how is it possible that you think that?

Perhaps because that is your belief, 'MBTI makes happy', and so you think that is (for you likely/preferably) what he perceives on the subforum. (pls don't reply to this, as this is merely to suggest where things can get lost in translation). 

So assuming he sees happy people on the subforum, you assume he means with 'denial' that "MBTI may make people feel "too good" about themselves, and stop realizing areas of personal growth they should work with" In other words, that he beliefs MBTI is causing this denial or fail to focus on areas of growth. So notice the underlying firm belief that MBTI makes happy or make people feel good about themselves. 

The reality is, Icarus, that MBTI theory doesn't deny possible flaws or typical potential problem areas. 

*"Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFPs are due to their dominant Feeling function overshadowing the rest of their personality. When the dominant function of Introverted Feeling overshadows everything else, the INFP can't use Extraverted iNtuition to take in information in a truly objective fashion."*

What @eyenexepee I think was trying to say, is that the folks on the subforum are cherrypicking. For instance, only seek affirmation of positive things without being critical whether this actually applies to them. Maybe even projecting these on themselves, like 'I am an idealist' or 'I am a healer', without reflecting on the interpersonal mechanisms as a result of the cognitive preferences. Or even try to live up to or conform to stereotypes and beliefs. 

And I think you also appear to be merely receptive for the positive evaluation, and even resistant to critical thinking. You seem to prefer just to belief that all your problems in life were because you were different than most, and that people didn't understand you or why you are supposedly not able to be like them or adapt to the world outside which you see very negatively. You don't want to know about what makes INFP potentially difficult persons to deal with and what may cause INFP to fail to achieve their goals in life, or disconnect from the world and socially withdraw. 

But we don't need to debate this. After all you hate debating, don't you? It's your own responsibility and if you choose to dismiss this, than that is the way it is. I don't want to assert myself as your saviour, I am just giving you my honest opinion, with only good intentions, even when I don't exclude at all the possibility, that you or other people might think I don't care about your well being, or would like to see you leave this forum. The truth is not so important, what is important is what works. And if you think it ain't broke, by all means, don't fix it.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> B. You can't just label something as "true" until you know the basis of what you're looking for, which has to be theoretically derived - the MBTI pretty much just labels people with little regard for why much of what they say is "true" other than because they say so, which is abusive psychology if I've ever seen it.


This I experience pretty much as the "hang-up" moment. I've noticed that as soon as I start talking about letting go of behavior and getting into cognition, a lot of people just hang up the phone. The line goes dead. And they'll not reply to me but will to others who talk their language, which is 'behavior-only'. That makes me quite sad really. :S



mimesis said:


> Icarus, how can you come to that conclusion? Where does he even suggest people on the forum are happy? You make that up just now, just like that for no reason. So how is it possible that you think that?
> [...]
> The truth is not so important, what is important is what works. And if you think it ain't broke, by all means, don't fix it.


Thanks mime, that hit the bullseye. I have no interest anymore in defending my words from becoming twisted in this thread and I don't expect others to do that for me, but I really appreciate it that you've put this out there.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

Bago said:


> I saw this quote online and thought of this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome quote. I don't think it's cool when people try to push views on other people.. especially if something else is already working for them and they're happy with it. It comes off like.. "I don't like how you're going about it and instead, you have to listen to me because I know what's right." Lol. -_-


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

@_JungyesMBTIno_ 

Put it best in my opinion.

Ive always loved ennegram more anyhow, despite my lack of knowledge in that area, but when I discovered 6w7 So/Sx ive never once doubted it or seen any reason to. It....just....makes....sense.

MBTI? Meh fuck it. Im not even sure on it as a guideline anymore. It seems inaccurate at best, dangerous at worst.

One thing I always made sure of when I came into this theory was: Whatever my type happens to appear to be, im still going to be myself. Unfortunately ive seen no proof that such a mentality can coexist with the MBTI.

I think that most people who are really into MBTI are that way because they either dont take it apart and question it, which I cannot NOT do, or they just enjoy neat little packages, which I also cant do.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Well, my issue isn't so much even the "boxes," which I've been over for a long time, but into the Jungian realm, the attempts to use this stuff as some sort of "predictor" of a person's psychology, which amounts to mind-reading in my eyes. Once again, the only place where I can find small validity in this approach would be with reference to the dominant function, which is what the person's psyche revolves around. Standards beyond the dominant get messy in terms of "so-called" function hierarchies, which I'm slowly, but surely beginning to lose my belief in beyond dom/inferior.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> Awesome quote. I don't think it's cool when people try to push views on other people.. especially if something else is already working for them and they're happy with it. It comes off like.. "I don't like how you're going about it and instead, you have to listen to me because I know what's right." Lol. -_-


or 'I know what's cool and I think passive aggressive is more peaceful'. lol.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

kaychivers said:


> Awesome quote. I don't think it's cool when people try to push views on other people.. especially if something else is already working for them and they're happy with it. It comes off like.. "I don't like how you're going about it and instead, you have to listen to me because I know what's right." Lol. -_-


That is the whole point. I thought it was caring and sharing but then you don't see it that way. IMHO, from my view, there is no emotional connection... so yes, there is no infp universal membership, to imply to deduce is also patronising, judging, minimising...


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

mimesis said:


> or 'I know what's cool and I think passive aggressive is more peaceful'. lol.


That's your opinion and I could see why you would think that


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Well, my issue isn't so much even the "boxes," which I've been over for a long time, but into the Jungian realm, the attempts to use this stuff as some sort of "predictor" of a person's psychology, which amounts to mind-reading in my eyes. Once again, the only place where I can find small validity in this approach would be with reference to the dominant function, which is what the person's psyche revolves around. Standards beyond the dominant get messy in terms of "so-called" function hierarchies, which I'm slowly, but surely beginning to lose my belief in beyond dom/inferior.


Meh I just dont like the theories full stop, Jung or otherwise.

Ive realised I hate theorising like this, it annoys me. This stuff always annoyed me, it never helped, I wanted answers and just found more questions.

I think people enjoy believing it because it helps them project, but that's all it is a belief, that's not enough for me.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> That's your opinion and I could see why you would think that


I was putting your words into perspective. 
That's all. 

I wasn't even judging so how can that be an opinion? 
You were by the way.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm 100% DONE with the MBTI aux/tertiary notion - DONE with it - I never thought I'd see the day I'd say it, but I really thought over this recently, and it no longer makes any sense to me against Jung's principles of functions between the dominant/inferior (I'm sorry, but Myers and co. are really starting to embarrass the heck out of me in their reasoning). This would mean, first off, that a person has a 100% conflicting personality if one aux. function was subordinate to the other and would make the inferior function even more one-sided and dangerously powerful if there wasn't EQUAL forces of balance acting to tie the dom/inferior in place as well as keep them apart all at once. After all, the point of the dom/inferior is that they are both connected but must disconnect to a great extent for the dominant to be dominant, so it makes no sense that a person should have another set of conflicting mental perspectives in between all of this - this would be the equivalent of having multiple personalities and no dominant function, let alone, cause the inferior function to destroy a person, since they'd have so-called higher "priorities" to deal with before this - after all, I can't even imagine what psychological reason there would be for someone to even care about the balance between the aux/tert - both functions support each other through and through, since the dominant has control over them both - they both better be stable as heck if the dominant, let alone, the inferior, are allowed to succeed and live up to their ego-syntonic potential - a person would be screwed if this was the case with the tert. being subordinate to the aux. It makes no sense at all, other than in an outward behavioral system like MBTI. I said it - MBTI is WRONG! Kill me now, people!


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Here's Jung's main principle of type in a nutshell: yin/yang (dom/inferior) and stability in between (auxiliaries). Just thinking over my life's experiences, I know not one person who values their aux. function over their tert. function.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I was putting your words into perspective.
> That's all.
> 
> I wasn't even judging so how can that be an opinion?
> You were by the way.


Lol. Thankfully I can read between the lines and you clearly were. I was just stating what I thought and that had nothing to do with you, but apparently it does :T


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

kaychivers said:


> Lol. Thankfully I can read between the lines and you clearly were. I was just stating what I thought and that had nothing to do with you, but apparently it does :T


lol my remark was just putting your remark into perspective. 
For now it seems like you think you know better than me, what I meant to say, and that would be kind of ironic.

But please explain, if it's so clearly. What is so clearly.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

20 pages? Seems like it's my job to add the /thread take in a single sentence:

MBTI doesn't define who or what you are, but merely how you function, or process information for that matter (roughly at best on top).

If you attribute anything more to it than there is, it isn't the system's fault but yours.

Meh, two sentences. :mellow:


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## Radiant Flux (May 7, 2010)

I find I'm more myself when I'm not thinking about it or using PerC. Living life without labels easier, less stressful. It's horrible to find out that that person watching over your shoulder to make sure you aren't "acting out of type" is yourself. I stay for the community, but I would really prefer to stop thinking about MBTI until I've come to terms with who I really am without using it as a tool.


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## kaychivers (May 7, 2012)

mimesis said:


> lol my remark was just putting your remark into perspective.
> For now it seems like you think you know better than me, what I meant to say, and that would be kind of ironic.
> 
> But please explain, if it's so clearly. What is so clearly.


You know what I find ironic? Lol mehh.. nvm. I'm sure you already know.


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