# Research help. Genetic memory in animals.



## MindSlinger (Jan 18, 2013)

*Research help. Genetic memory in animals. revised...*

Is is science fiction? Or do we know that some animals are born with all of the knowledge of the mother?
Any tips on research keywords would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and, please feel free to tell me anything you already know, or even suspect on the subject. 
And feel free to debate the subject here. I'd love to know what you are thinking.

Alright, what I am ultimately looking for is any kind of scientific evidence I can find that may corroborate Jung's, racial memory. 
The closest thing I can find so far is epigenetics. 
Methylation, has promise. Any thoughts now?


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## KSKatze (Nov 15, 2012)

This is a fairly new and increasingly active area of research that has been suggested, dismissed, suggested, dismissed and now gathering more evidence, both evolutionary and medically. Epigenetic mechanisms have loads of evidence, but evidence is hit and miss for its role in evolution. Try looking up Paul Kammerer- famous for accidentally discovering epigenetics but was dismissed as a fraud and subsequently shot himself. Also Eva Jablonka and Marion Lamb. Key words...methylation yes, histone modifications, chromatin marking.

A lot of successful experiments have been done in a worm called C. elegans. Try lookingup epigenetic inheritance in C. elegans. 

Epigenetics=up and coming!


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## StarDust_Kraut (Feb 5, 2013)

> Try looking up Paul Kammerer- famous for accidentally discovering epigenetics but was dismissed as a fraud and subsequently shot himself.


Poor guy, just born in the wrong time...

I found this, it might also help.  
Posttranslational modifications are powerful tools to reversibly modulate protein function. They allow dynamic control of cellular processes without de novo protein synthesis. Besides phosphorylation, methylation or acetylation, ubiquitin and its relatives are amongst the most frequently used reversible modifications. 
Ubiquitin and SUMO (small ubiquitin related modifier) are small proteins involved in the dynamic regulation of protein function.

I just had to study histone modifications for a exam. Even if it bored me then (just remembering stuff), I think this is a highly interesting subject.

With different histone modifications gene expression can be regulated without changing the DNA sequence itself, just by the structure. This makes stuff like changes in metabolism, or even slowed down aging possible. Histone modifications can also pass on to the next generation (liek if your grandmother did not have enough food, you might get fat faster because your metabolism deals with nutrients more efficiently).

However, I am not really sure how this stuff would work on a thing like memory. I mean, memory is not fully (or even remotely) understood. So, I wont have the arrogance to tell you it isnt possible. 
But remembering stuff as in actual pictures and feelings is as far as I know limited to persons. And every newborn has to develop new structures etc. which is happening by own experiences. Also, everything works via electrical signals. 

Maybe someone has more knowledge about neuroscience here, I am just a biochem/microbiology grunt


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## Wulfyn (May 22, 2010)

This really depends on what you mean by memory.

If you are talking about gene expression and regulation on a new-born driven by the hormonal action of the mother during gestation then there is some evidence to suggest that this can occur. This is not that different from how your own experiences can release hormones that modify your behaviour at a genetic level - in this instance these same hormones are influencing the foetal animal. In this way experiences of the mother does have some informational vector to the child.

If you are talking about memory from a cognitive perspective, as most people would use the term "I remember" then there is no evidence for this. Memory is caused (somehow) by the neuronal plasticity of the brain and the wiring that affects this area does not seem to be controlled by genetics other than in the basic pathways and the rules of how the system reacts to stimuli. Disorders brought about by traumatic memories (PTSD, neurosis, etc.) have no specific recollection in the event. Girls who are given up for adoption by rape victims seem to be no more afraid of rape than the average girl of the same age, despite the undeniable traumatic event that the mother suffered.


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## KineticPresupposition (Feb 23, 2013)

(Excellent) science fiction, in my opinion. Have you heard of "Parasite Eve"? This made me think of that.


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## Nessie (Jan 6, 2012)

MindSlinger said:


> Is is science fiction? Or do we know that some animals are born with all of the knowledge of the mother?
> Any tips on research keywords would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Oh and, please feel free to tell me anything you already know, or even suspect on the subject.
> ...



@MindSlinger, 
in my opinion, I wouldnt mix epigenetics and cognitive genetic memory (here I agree with @_Wulfyn_).

Despite I dont see it 100% sure for all species. Theoretically speaking: for example rats are able to "inherit" via some misterious way tricks other rats learned before them. In certain way (might) interaction of environment and genes, they have got before birth. Dont ask me how rats "genetic memory" does work, I dont know (not enough research in this topic from my part and in general).

Epigenetics is usually understood like interaction of genes with environment: speaking organism, which is already existent.
Thats not quite exact, because methylation and other processes influence genetic expression as well. For example if parents are TT homozygots and sperm of the father is doing worse speaking methylation status (often contributing factor is age of male), kid have got bigger chance of shizophrenia risk.
But this does express *genetic vulnerability *and not cognitive memory.

I do agree with @KSKatze, that epigenetics, methylation etc. tend to be overlooked, but this might is going to change, because of ability of MTHFR mutations interact with other genes. I puted there referal to ENCODE project ( they are putting together *methylation map.)
*I know its not publicly known that much, at least *not under this label*.

When I asked in General psychology forum, who is having experience (patients, genetics, doctors), appeared, that no one, who was reading that. Which I strongly doubt, because genes responsible for methylation are commonly (nearly routinelly) checked in prenatal care in many states. But its not habit to connect them to mentall issuess and chronic illness and ppl quite often dont know, what those tests are good for. Just passively give to doc. sample of saliva. Or they passively get checked level of their homocystein at coronary, without knowing this is connected to methylation as well...

http://personalitycafe.com/general-...enetics-mentall-ilness-chronical-disease.html

P.S.: regarding methylation issues, here "CC wild type". We were speaking about making a baby longer time...Im already checked:wink:


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## Nessie (Jan 6, 2012)

Which version would you like to do research in?
1) Inherited memories:
Traits and memories passed by previous generations, in case, that its possible (cognitive, psychological). Representant of something like this could be for example psychoterapeut Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger who wrote "The ancestor syndrome". She believes memories could be passed to next generations.

2) Epigenetc point of wiew.
Could be represented by something like this:
The conventional view is that DNA carries all our heritable information and that nothing an individual does in their lifetime will be biologically passed to their children. To many scientists, epigenetics amounts to a heresy, calling into question the accepted view of the DNA sequence – a cornerstone on which modern biology sits.
Epigenetics adds a whole new layer to genes beyond the DNA. It proposes a control system of 'switches' that turn genes on or off – and suggests that things people experience, like nutrition and stress, can control these switches and cause heritable effects in humans.
In a remote town in northern Sweden there is evidence for this radical idea. Lying in Överkalix's parish registries of births and deaths and its detailed harvest records is a secret that confounds traditional scientific thinking. Marcus Pembrey, a Professor of Clinical Genetics at the Institute of Child Health in London, in collaboration with Swedish researcher Lars Olov Bygren, has found evidence in these records of an environmental effect being passed down the generations. They have shown that a famine at critical times in the lives of the grandparents can affect the life expectancy of the grandchildren. This is the first evidence that an environmental effect can be inherited in humans.
fulltext: BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon

I rather wouldnt mix point of wiev saying, that effect of famine and similar could physically affect genome of offspring with point of wiev, reminding Moodys research on "past/previous lives".


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## MindSlinger (Jan 18, 2013)

@KSKatze and @Nessie 
Kskatze I'd like to hear what you think about what is below. And Nessie I think the below answers your question too, in explanation of what I am looking for, and why I think the answer lies in both forms of the science. @KineticPresupposition yeah, it is isn't it? I'd like to discover that it is one of those aspects of science fiction that turns out to be reality as well. You_* know*_ it happens! thanx you guys! 


Wulfyn said:


> This really depends on what you mean by memory.
> 
> If you are talking about gene expression and regulation on a new-born driven by the hormonal action of the mother during gestation then there is some evidence to suggest that this can occur. This is not that different from how your own experiences can release hormones that modify your behaviour at a genetic level - in this instance these same hormones are influencing the foetal animal. In this way experiences of the mother does have some informational vector to the child.


Right, that pretty much matches what I have been reading. So, the question then in my mind is: Does this fact lead to a logical path suggesting a way that racial memory could be encoded into the genome? I'm saying, I get the fact that we are talking about two different kinds of memory here. But I am unconvinced that there is not some way that the mind, especially the sub/super conscious could be aware of these memories. 

A metaphor if you will: An owl can detect a mouse while the mouse is still underground, and even under snow. On the surface of things, you might be tempted to observe the owl, watching a mouse hole, and think that the owl is just waiting to see if anything comes out of it. 
But we know that the reality is, that the owl knows the mouse is there, and is not waiting to just, "get lucky." 

If the genes are under the ground, and the sub/super conscious is the owl, the is it possible that the genes are making some sort of, "noise", that the sub/super conscious can pick up on?



Wulfyn said:


> If you are talking about memory from a cognitive perspective, as most people would use the term "I remember" then there is no evidence for this. Memory is caused (somehow) by the neuronal plasticity of the brain and the wiring that affects this area does not seem to be controlled by genetics other than in the basic pathways and the rules of how the system reacts to stimuli. Disorders brought about by traumatic memories (PTSD, neurosis, etc.) have no specific recollection in the event. Girls who are given up for adoption by rape victims seem to be no more afraid of rape than the average girl of the same age, despite the undeniable traumatic event that the mother suffered.


Well the last sentence seems a bit off to me. Pavlov showed that each successive generation of his dogs was easier to train than the last one. I am not sure if he altered his methods of training, but if not, then it suggests that some kind of tendency is passed on, and that tendency has cognitive features. If each successive generation can "learn" faster than the previous one about an event that happened before it's birth, then something is changing in the mind. Also how could science have even figured out that those girls are less afraid of rape? Because they do not necessarily think of rape any more often than any other girl, doesn't mean that if they were presented with a rapist, their fear would not be more acute than in a girl who's mother was not raped. 
Furthermore, very recently (like in the last couple of weeks) I read that some guy had discovered that successive generations of mice, run a maze faster, the first time, when their parents did it before they were born. The control mice did not do as well on their first time. 

So again, even if the second generation of mice are not experiencing a direct cognitive memory of the maze that their parent's traversed, perhaps their minds are genetically altered to include mazes as an instinctual part of the world they were born into. 
If that, or something similar is true, then there ought to exist in the physical make up of their brains, the reasoning ability to intuit, that mazes have been in their racial past. (Of course this is a metaphoric example, as mice probably do not think about their racial past. Change the mice to humans, and apply the same reasoning.) We suspect that a fear of snakes, for instance, has been passed down to us through a similar process, in a combination of living memory, and something more subconscious. These are the questions, that lead me to wanting to look at all sides of the issue. 

I think the work being done with quantum computers these days, is also a possible metaphor to the possibility of racial memory, encoded into the genes. Perhaps a single memory, can be encapsulated as a thousand single bits of information, into a thousand different genes, that each pass their bit into some structure of the brain, where those bits can then be collapsed back into the memory itself.

And perhaps it really is just interesting science fiction. I would like to find out.
Thanx for entertaining the idea with me. I look forward to further responses.


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## Orion (Jan 25, 2011)

MindSlinger said:


> Pavlov showed that each successive generation of his dogs was easier to train than the last one. I am not sure if he altered his methods of training, but if not, then it suggests that some kind of tendency is passed on, and that tendency has cognitive features. If each successive generation can "learn" faster than the previous one about an event that happened before it's birth, then something is changing in the mind.
> Furthermore, very recently (like in the last couple of weeks) I read that some guy had discovered that successive generations of mice, run a maze faster, the first time, when their parents did it before they were born. The control mice did not do as well on their first time.


The chances are high that these generational improvements can be thought of as a gain from selection. I do not know the experimental procedure, but I suspect the best animals were mated. Being selected for are genes that help the animal complete the task, not a memory. 

As @Nessie pointed out, epigenetics is the closest to this that we know of.


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## MindSlinger (Jan 18, 2013)

Orion said:


> The chances are high that these generational improvements can be thought of as a gain from selection. I do not know the experimental procedure, but I suspect the best animals were mated. Being selected for are genes that help the animal complete the task, not a memory.
> 
> As @_Nessie_ pointed out, epigenetics is the closest to this that we know of.


Yeah, I admit that I hadn't thought of that. It makes sense. On the other side of the coin, scientists are beginning to learn some very interesting things about the mind, the memory, and even the possibility of the soul. That last has some far reaching implications. I'm currently involved in another thread about science, in which a link to a story about the soul was given. I'll post it here, when I get to my puter. I'm on my iPad right now, and this is just a PIA.


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

I was going to recommned the experiment with planaria, where one cannabalizing the other seemed to lead to memory transfer. 


The work seems to be currently discredited, however: Memory RNA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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