# Why are so few women pursuing IT degrees/careers?



## dulcinea

I'm just wondering about this. I've read several articles that have indicated such. It's one of my goals to get my A+ certification next year, and I've been thinking about this. 


Why are there so few qualified female applicants for IT jobs? Is it because most women simply don't take much of an interest in computers beyond social networking, mom blogging, finding coupons, watching videos, and playing bejeweled twist? Or are there more women who are interested in it but don't pursue it because they're intimidated by entering an industry that's still pretty male dominated?

If it's the first reason then that's fine. People should pursue what they're interested in, and not be coerced to be interested in something just because there's a shortage of potential employees of that particular demographic, but if it's the latter, that's a shame. The idea of computer programming was pretty much invented by a woman, Ada Lovelace, and Also a female programmer (Dr. Grace Hopper) led a team in creating the programming language COBOL, so if it is the latter, than there a lot of would be qualified employees that would be an asset to the industry, but sell themselves short.


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## Gossip Goat

I'm thinking about it but I don't think I would like it very much... truthfully I'd like to do something creative / artistic but not in the traditional artist way or more behavior driven...

Maybe if they found something about IT they were interested in they would go for it but sadly they either don't know how or have never been exposed to it.


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## Melancholia

dulcinea said:


> I'm just wondering about this. I've read several articles that have indicated such. It's one of my goals to get my A+ certification next year, and I've been thinking about this.
> 
> 
> Why are there so few qualified female applicants for IT jobs? Is it because most women simply don't take much of an interest in computers beyond social networking, mom blogging, finding coupons, watching videos, and playing bejeweled twist? Or are there more women who are interested in it but don't pursue it because they're intimidated by entering an industry that's still pretty male dominated?
> 
> If it's the first reason then that's fine. People should pursue what they're interested in, and not be coerced to be interested in something just because there's a shortage of potential employees of that particular demographic, but if it's the latter, that's a shame. The idea of computer programming was pretty much invented by a woman, Ada Lovelace, and Also a female programmer (Dr. Grace Hopper) led a team in creating the programming language COBOL, so if it is the latter, than there a lot of would be qualified employees that would be an asset to the industry, but sell themselves short.


I would probably say that it is mostly the first reason. I would put it in the same frame as being a car mechanic. There is a lady who works within the IT Department at my place of employ, but I would say she is very much the exception. I must admit that I work as a technician of sorts, and even I would say that I am in line with that first group of hypothetical women, and I'm a guy. Being an I.T Tech is a bit stale, and it generally feels like a case of I wasn't intelligent enough to study computer science. I just unscrew things... It's not exactly a career that instils excitement. Although everyone is interested in different things, and some people like tinkering with things. I think it will remain a male dominated environment, simply because the work isn't that personable, and women are more likely to want a connection with people.

Its worth saying that Ada Lovelace was wholly, scientifically minded, and probably wouldn't have found being the girl with the screwdriver popping out bits of ram that stimulating either.


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## Razare

It's kind of the same reason women don't work on cars usually, or don't fix household appliances when they go awry... or do plumbing.

IT is largely a fix-it sort of field.

The high-level stuff can be more advanced, sure, but it still has a lot of fix-it to it.


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## dulcinea

Makes sense. I find, as an INFJ, I have that Fe desire interest in the humanities, but I also have that Ti love to analyze, troubleshoot, solve problems. It's really hard for me to pick one over the other, because I like connecting with and helping people, but being involved in something that directly involves being around a lot of people drains me fast. On the other hand, I can sit at a computer screen doing different kinds of exercises for hours. I have a certain level of that focus to me. I find mechanics as well as math fascinating. I also have a knack with machines. I think my dream job would be to design and create functional, art. Perhaps beautifully designed smart appliances. That would be, like the best of both worlds for me (my artsy side and my techie side)


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## Melancholia

dulcinea said:


> Makes sense. I find, as an INFJ, I have that Fe desire interest in the humanities, but I also have that Ti love to analyze, troubleshoot, solve problems. It's really hard for me to pick one over the other, because I like connecting with and helping people, but being involved in something that directly involves being around a lot of people drains me fast. On the other hand, I can sit at a computer screen doing different kinds of exercises for hours. I have a certain level of that focus to me. I find mechanics as well as math fascinating. I also have a knack with machines. I think my dream job would be to design and create functional, art. Perhaps beautifully designed smart appliances. That would be, like the best of both worlds for me (my artsy side and my techie side)


I would say that if you want to create something, then don't go for IT at all. IT is more like an administrator who deals specifically in computer nomenclature. It's all about systems and processes on how computer systems work within organisations. It sounds to me that you'd be better suited to engineering or perhaps computer science, if your maths is up to snuff. 

IT will suck the artistic creativity out of you. They are advanced computer operators, not designers or creators of anything.


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## HAL

I'd say it's a mix of male-dominance and cultural enforcement.

What I mean is, some women probably don't give a shit about the gender balance. Yet some of those same women will never go into IT anyway because they're conditioned to be totally uninterested in it.

A bit like there are fewer male nurses and not many male primary school teachers. It's not really anyone's fault. It just _is_.

Also there may be genetic factors. The most obvious example here is the utter minority of women working in manual labour. The male physique is much better designed for it, simple as that. Plus I'd be willing to suggest the male psychology evolved to much more greatly enjoy doing such things. I do think there will be biological differences between female and male brains. So that may also be a reason for gender imbalance in many areas. And, to be perfectly honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. 50/50 mixes in every sector would be quite frightful, in my opinion. Like we're all mindless clone cyborg creatures or something.

So yeah, it all just _is_.


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## stiletto

One of the major factors, I believe, is because as little girls, they had to fight against social grain to develop their logical side. Girls are encouraged/praised to engage in language, the arts, social studies etc. We see boys typically encouraged/praised when they do well in math, science and physical education.

This really isn't news. It isn't because women are not interested in these pursuits, they were simply "groomed" in a different starting direction. 

What we need is teachers to angle children in all directions, moreso, to press girls and boys into "atypical" subjects to counteract the imbalance in childhood (for the next generation) before society and the education system can start balancing out (exposing kids to all subjects equally).


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## aendern

Melancholia said:


> women are more likely to want a connection with people.


This seems true to me as well. Perhaps it is culturally instilled in women to like social interaction, or perhaps it is biological, but whatever the reason--they do seem to gravitate toward it.

Whereas men don't seem to as much.

Also, women are in higher demand for jobs that involve working with people -- like cash register jobs, receptionists, bartenders, etc. People don't want to speak to men. They want to speak to women.


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## Uralian Hamster

Melancholia said:


> I would say that if you want to create something, then don't go for IT at all. IT is more like an administrator who deals specifically in computer nomenclature. It's all about systems and processes on how computer systems work within organisations. It sounds to me that you'd be better suited to engineering or perhaps computer science, if your maths is up to snuff.
> 
> IT will suck the artistic creativity out of you. They are advanced computer operators, not designers or creators of anything.


Good advice, though the math used in comp sci isn't that difficult.


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## Coburn

From what I've observed, most women just arent interested in IT.

For the women who are, I've never heard one say they were intimidated by the heavy male presence. Most are already pretty aware of that from the get go and tend to consider it more fact of life than something specifically negative. Same thing for women in jobs like naval aviator and Air Force pilots.


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## dulcinea

emberfly said:


> Also, women are in higher demand for jobs that involve working with people -- like cash register jobs, receptionists, bartenders, etc. People don't want to speak to men. They want to speak to women.


The problem with these jobs, though, is that they don't make a lot of money, usually.


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## Shaolu

bollocks said:


> Good advice, though the math used in comp sci isn't that difficult.


Depends on how you define it and how far you go. In some ways CS is the science of Math itself. In one conventional sense, Computer Science is to Programming what Physics is to Engineering. In some college programs, "Computer Science" is really used interchangeably with Computer Programming or even just advanced Computer Literacy or something, but this is far from the extent of what CS really can be and what it historically meant.

Computer science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## dulcinea

Melancholia said:


> I would say that if you want to create something, then don't go for IT at all. IT is more like an administrator who deals specifically in computer nomenclature. It's all about systems and processes on how computer systems work within organisations. It sounds to me that you'd be better suited to engineering or perhaps computer science, if your maths is up to snuff.
> 
> IT will suck the artistic creativity out of you. They are advanced computer operators, not designers or creators of anything.


Hmmm, yeah that is a point. I think I would prefer to work on the software/website end. So far, I like learning to program even though I wanna pull every single hair out of my head sometimes, especially when it's error after error. It's like, when I finally get it, and the code runs smoothly, that feeling of satisfaction of "I'M A BOSS!" is totally worth it to me. I'm also creating some plans, and started coding a website; I'm planning up the layout of a couple of other websites. I have a good knowledge of Adobe software which allows me to create the content to add to it, and I know a bit about how to arrange it via CSS. I'm also juuust learning PHP. 

I'm still kinda thinking of getting the A+ as a stepping stone, because push comes to shove, I'll accept a techie job, even if it's just to get my foot in the door toward software/website design; I'd also like to be Oracle certified. I've heard mixed things about Java, but I think most smartphone, and smart--just about everything is written in Java, so I think it'd be cool to know.


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## dulcinea

Shaolu said:


> Depends on how you define it and how far you go. In some ways CS is the science of Math itself. In one conventional sense, Computer Science is to Programming what Physics is to Engineering. In some college programs, "Computer Science" is really used interchangeably with Computer Programming or even just advanced Computer Literacy or something, but this is far from the extent of what CS really can be and what it historically meant.
> 
> Computer science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


But isn't it mostly college level algebra? I don't have a problem with algebra if that's the case; I've been reading Godel Escher Bach to help me get a deeper understanding of mathematical concepts; if I don't know about the form of math that the book is talking about, I usually look it up in Wolfram Math.


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## Shaolu

dulcinea said:


> But isn't it mostly college level algebra? I don't have a problem with algebra if that's the case; I've been reading Godel Escher Bach to help me get a deeper understanding of mathematical concepts; if I don't know about the form of math that the book is talking about, I usually look it up in Wolfram Math.


Somewhat depends on the institution in question. There are still colleges and universities, however, that require a bit more than just college level Algebra.

school - Should certain math classes be required for a Computer Science degree? - Programmers Stack Exchange


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## Solrac026

Gossip Goat said:


> I'm thinking about it but I don't think I would like it very much... truthfully I'd like to do something creative / artistic but not in the traditional artist way or more behavior driven...
> 
> Maybe if they found something about IT they were interested in they would go for it but sadly they either don't know how or have never been exposed to it.


Programming highly requires creative skills. You have to be able to think outside the box to design solutions that are elegant and effective. Although code doesn't appear creative or artistic on the surface, speak with any developer and they will tell you otherwise.


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## dulcinea

So, I think what I've inadvertantly picked up from this thread is what I think I really want to do is be a web developer.


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## Melancholia

Solrac026 said:


> Programming highly requires creative skills. You have to be able to think outside the box to design solutions that are elegant and effective. Although code doesn't appear creative or artistic on the surface, speak with any developer and they will tell you otherwise.


Every artist can be creative, but not every creative person is an artist. I still don't buy this idea that programming is an artform. It's only considered so by those in the industry, possibly to satisfy their egos. You may disagree, but that's just my experience whilst being around these types of people. Creativity in a logical sense, then yes of course and some programmers may also have artistic talents. But programming on it's own is not an art. It just seems like a way for people to prove that 'I'm just as good and important as the graphics people!', and they are but for a different part of the whole product. 

The idea of art has a mass cultural identity with philosophical principles. People can believe that it is created by people who see the world differently, it's romantic, enlightened, etc. People want in on this level of depth. 

Speak with any developer and they will tell you otherwise? Of course they will. They're driving their own agenda train. Although art has had many definitely definitions over the centuries. Maybe one day it will be recognised as an art. I don't believe it should, but I guess time will decide whether that will be the eventual conclusion.

Sorry to derail the thread. As for level of maths, then I think it is important to not confuse software development with computer science. One is a subset of the other. Computer science will contain all that, along side any abstract principles and theoretical concepts about computation which is, in my opinion, quite high level in terms of mathematical thought.


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## Uralian Hamster

Shaolu said:


> Depends on how you define it and how far you go. In some ways CS is the science of Math itself. In one conventional sense, Computer Science is to Programming what Physics is to Engineering. In some college programs, "Computer Science" is really used interchangeably with Computer Programming or even just advanced Computer Literacy or something, but this is far from the extent of what CS really can be and what it historically meant.
> 
> Computer science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Yes, it does depend on how far the student wants to go. Math is a subject that steers people away from certain careers because they had negative experiences with it, so by saying that someone needs to be good at math to succeed in computer science is almost like robbing those people of the opportunity to at least see for themselves whether or not they are good at it.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution

Why not?

I don't see why women always have to justify their choice in careers?


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## LibertyPrime

dulcinea said:


> I'm just wondering about this. I've read several articles that have indicated such. It's one of my goals to get my A+ certification next year, and I've been thinking about this.
> 
> 
> Why are there so few qualified female applicants for IT jobs? Is it because most women simply don't take much of an interest in computers beyond social networking, mom blogging, finding coupons, watching videos, and playing bejeweled twist? Or are there more women who are interested in it but don't pursue it because they're intimidated by entering an industry that's still pretty male dominated?
> 
> If it's the first reason then that's fine. People should pursue what they're interested in, and not be coerced to be interested in something just because there's a shortage of potential employees of that particular demographic, but if it's the latter, that's a shame. The idea of computer programming was pretty much invented by a woman, Ada Lovelace, and Also a female programmer (Dr. Grace Hopper) led a team in creating the programming language COBOL, so if it is the latter, than there a lot of would be qualified employees that would be an asset to the industry, but sell themselves short.


I work with a woman who is a computer science major, who also studied architecture and computer aided design. Me and this old bearded dude are the sysadmins ..the 3 of us hold together a 84 ppl strong factory's IT & design department...(yeah the 3 of us are the IT & design department...)

From the 3 of us she is more knowledgeable about software, less about hardware thou. From what I can tell she really digs IT work. She knows stuff like: Fortran

Today I'm getting her the most bad-ass design rig the boss allowed me to build *_* its gonna be rad. >.> can't wait to see the old man cut his fingers off on the lazer welding machine heheh...Xd damn Chinese OS.


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## HellCat

dulcinea said:


> I'm just wondering about this. I've read several articles that have indicated such. It's one of my goals to get my A+ certification next year, and I've been thinking about this.
> 
> 
> Why are there so few qualified female applicants for IT jobs? Is it because most women simply don't take much of an interest in computers beyond social networking, mom blogging, finding coupons, watching videos, and playing bejeweled twist? Or are there more women who are interested in it but don't pursue it because they're intimidated by entering an industry that's still pretty male dominated?
> 
> If it's the first reason then that's fine. People should pursue what they're interested in, and not be coerced to be interested in something just because there's a shortage of potential employees of that particular demographic, but if it's the latter, that's a shame. The idea of computer programming was pretty much invented by a woman, Ada Lovelace, and Also a female programmer (Dr. Grace Hopper) led a team in creating the programming language COBOL, so if it is the latter, than there a lot of would be qualified employees that would be an asset to the industry, but sell themselves short.



I am working on A+ right for fun, Security+ and Network + after a lifetime of working on pc's and even having a family business in them. 

Good for you, pursuing your passion. You are quite knowledgeable as well. 

Do you code?


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## Shaolu

bollocks said:


> Yes, it does depend on how far the student wants to go. Math is a subject that steers people away from certain careers because they had negative experiences with it, so by saying that someone needs to be good at math to succeed in computer science is almost like robbing those people of the opportunity to at least see for themselves whether or not they are good at it.


When you say "good at it" you talk about it like it's some kind of craft or trade. My point is that Computer Science as it was historically defined effectively _is_ Math. It's just one particular branch concerned with computation--and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "Computers" either. That's why some University programs are starting to call this "Computing Science" to try to clear up the confusion.


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## Solrac026

Melancholia said:


> Every artist can be creative, but not every creative person is an artist. I still don't buy this idea that programming is an artform. *It's only considered so by those in the industry, possibly to satisfy their egos.* You may disagree, but that's just my experience whilst being around these types of people. Creativity in a logical sense, then yes of course and some programmers may also have artistic talents. But programming on it's own is not an art.* It just seems like a way for people to prove that 'I'm just as good and important as the graphics people!'*, and they are but for a different part of the whole product.


LOL, good trolling.


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## esteban.vargas.9231

The media has brainwashed us to believe in stereotypes.

If I tell you "give me the names of the first 3 leaders in tech that come up to your mind", you'll say something like "Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg". This guys for sure deserve to have the "top of mind" and the population in the tech industry for sure looks way more male than female. However with so much news, movies, tv series, etc. showing in its majority male actors, they're making the problem even worse. 

I have a theory as to what might be the root of the problem:

The internet emereged during the cold-war (1969) and back then (and even today) military armies look way more male than female. If soldiers were the first to use the internet, then that's the root of the still existing cognitive-bias towards the tech/IT industry.

Now, the question is, why are men seem as more apt for the military? That's the real root of the problem.


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## Cheveyo

esteban.vargas.9231 said:


> Now, the question is, why are men seem as more apt for the military? That's the real root of the problem.




Because they are? Men are capable of being physically stronger than women. That's just the way our bodies are built.
In order to get more women into the military, they've had to lower the requirements for them. And many of them STILL failed to meet those requirements so they had to be lowered further.


It's not about being sexist. It's just the way the human body is built.


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## Melancholia

Solrac026 said:


> LOL, good trolling.


This is only my opinion, that has been formed from working with these types of people for a number of years in the past. It was merely describing my observation, and that is exactly what these people where. But I will agree with my statement that the only people who believe it is an art are those who espouse to that profession. But, I get that art is seen more as someone's personal interpretation rather than a definitive all-encompassing definition. Trolling was not my intention.


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## Pinion

More for those who do go into the field.

I love technology except when I have to be the first to try new things and I'm not even getting paid. It's better than working with people, and even the people are friendlier and more interesting than they are elsewhere. I hated pretty much everyone in high school, and then suddenly I loved everyone because they were a bunch of goofy, nerdy guys who'd talk my ear off about things I actually cared about. It was like my family exploded into hundreds of complete strangers.

The only creative thing I could see myself making money from is writing, and I'm worried that's what would suck the life out of me. Having to think about audience and deadlines from the perspective of someone who's trying to appeal to enough people to put food on the table.


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## DemonAbyss10

You can throw engineering into the mix as well. There are far too few even interested IMO, and more should be. Dunno if it was said in regards to the IT field or no, but a big part of the lack in both is because of Preconceptions that they are fields for nerdy men only, as well as how society tends to bring up boys as opposed to girls. The boys get the lego sets, erector sets and such while women get barbie dolls and easybake ovens. 

Want to fix the imbalance? Start exposing kids to concepts (or just toys with a slant towards such), regardless of gender.


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## dulcinea

LeoCat said:


> I am working on A+ right for fun, Security+ and Network + after a lifetime of working on pc's and even having a family business in them.
> 
> Good for you, pursuing your passion. You are quite knowledgeable as well.
> 
> Do you code?


Good for you too  I do some coding. I know a bit of HTML, and CSS, and I'm learning javascript now. I started learning python, but, considering my interests, I think I want to focus on front end development for websites, because it allows for more creativity. I'm also thinking of learning Ruby on Rails. I downloaded the software for it, but I wanna focus on front end first before learning any back end development. I think I want to focus on bidding on blogs.


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## zynthaxx

DemonAbyss10 said:


> Want to fix the imbalance? Start exposing kids to concepts (or just toys with a slant towards such), regardless of gender.


This can't be stated enough times.


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## Forget

It really saddens me that there are only few. As I even know many females who are at least interested in those fields. Imo everyone, regardless of their gender, should have a fair chance in pursuing those fields.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst

DemonAbyss10 said:


> Want to fix the imbalance? Start exposing kids to concepts (or just toys with a slant towards such), regardless of gender.


I've wondered before how much this may actually play into the lack of female interest in tech subjects: the kinds of things we give kids to play with. I've seen some arguments that, when presented with both options in a neutral environment, little boys will naturally gravitate towards things like blocks and little girls toward dolls and the like. I'm skeptical of it myself, if only for the assumption of what constitutes "boys' toys" and "girls' toys". Nature vs. nurture. I myself believe academic interest is a combination of both, and it is possible for one to override the other.

Are you familiar with Clarke's Law*? I actually suspect this may play some part of why girls seem so disinterested in tech, and it connects to your point about toys.



*Yes, I realize TV Tropes is hardly a repository of scholarly nomenclature and associated concepts. But the article does describe a phenomenon that is still very much alive today.


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## rambleonrose

For me personally, both my parents are musicians but my dads primary job for money is IT, as a kid I watched him lose his job and be unemployed and severely depressed for a couple years. Not once, have I gotten the impression that he enjoys his job or would stay if he had any other option. So, IT never really crossed my mind as something I would be happy pursuing, though I honestly never gave it much thought (at least in terms of myself pursuing an IT career) until now.


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## semeface

but ada lovelace is the first computer scientist. grace hopper found bug and compiler. so weird. maybe because female tend to be illogical


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## The Joker

Due to biological differences.

When I was doing computer course, had a friend who was planning software very well, knew everything. She had no creativity as some men had, but it was good in the details. 


She wanted to go into this exact area, but dropped out because he felt too "exotic" for her. She chose to enter into a more feminine area, and look that was more "masculine" woman I met. "


CAN NOT FIGHT WITH THE BIOLOGY.


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## AFO_Rabbit

I think women are naturally turned off being as a programmer, software engineer, etc. because being in an environment where you sit on your ass nearly all day, coding and staring at the computer screen, coding/decompile complex code lines is not attractive and plus there is always running into syntax errors and having the patience to fix that; I think a guy is more suited for that kind of job. Plus you are in solitude, rarely talk with coworkers (from what I seen). Also, from the hiring managers and IT directors (a guy usually), they tend to hire more men than women in their IT teams; because there are very few women who is exceptionally good in this.

example: the whole IT department at H&M/Forever 21 corporate is all guys, no women at all; but all other departments, marketing, QA, IT support (different from the actual IT dep who works on the actual coding of websites/server mechanics) who responds to calls of retail interface computers not functioning, etc. are more women and some men


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## Veggie

dulcinea said:


> Is it because most women simply don't take much of an interest in computers beyond social networking, mom blogging, finding coupons, watching videos, and playing bejeweled twist?


...



dulcinea said:


> People should pursue what they're interested in, and not be coerced to be interested in something


Honestly, there's a little hypocrisy there. The first bit is kinda judgmental too. Whatever though, lol.

I get that we're gunning for equality, but I don't get giving the patriarchy more power than it actually possesses. Maybe women aren't in these fields, yes, simply because they don't want to be? (Not due to ignorance or intimidation either). Gender equality still includes a more stereotypical femininity (regardless of sexuality) within it's scope, which does tend to be oriented more towards the community.

I recruited for IT for three and a half years. I had to know enough about it to be able to speak to and interview these guys (and women) and decode their resumes. It was honestly the most excruciatingly mind numbing thing I've ever done, lol. (Well, it was up there). I'm sure there are people who enjoy techie work - my dad is a Systems Architect and he prefers the hands on stuff to a lot of the project management he's gotten roped into - but it's not for everyone. 

I also found that while the starting salary is generally higher (and steadier from there) than in a lot of fields, it plateaus more quickly as well - while the professions that require a bit more interface and schmoozing can keep going up monetarily with the right connections and creative license. There was also a lot of on call work which worked as a conflict to some (especially new) mothers. I've talked to plenty of individuals who prefer the lifestyle to other options and don't mind that, but if you find the work boring and are more money and/or people oriented it doesn't make as much sense to get into.

Another thing I noticed within the HR department is that gender related issues were often more of a problem in these sorts of offices than other places (likely viewed as more stereotypically chauvinist) I've worked, ironically. Perhaps it's because everyone was attempting to turn blinders to certain social aspects, although generally what we would try to promote was recognition and acceptance of differences. I also encountered more ageism, sexism and overall prejudices within the hiring process, so I agree that there is a problem, but often times this was perpetuated by actual experience and trial and error. It's like the culture was having a difficult time figuring itself out.

I do believe it's partially cultural on a larger level though, yes, but I think it goes beyond male/female. For instance, it was difficult to find American citizens for a lot of positions I'd recruit for. The pool is largely inundated by Indian men on visa's or with green cards in my area. No different than pharmaceutical sales reps generally being comprised of a certain demographic of people, etc. I think there's more...currency to these trends, honestly, that it's less some archaic structure that needs overcoming. If anything, what appears to be becoming more set is the turning up of the nose towards blue collar trade professions, despite pay often being close to even, and hours possibly being more flexible. I call a conspiracy by overpriced universities attempting to rob us


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## Veggie

And arguing with myself because I'm bored...



Veggie said:


> Gender equality still includes a more stereotypical femininity (regardless of sexuality) within it's scope, which does tend to be oriented more towards the community.


I wonder if this is due more to pregnancy and child rearing than programming (but then, wouldn't that be it's own programming since men can't get pregnant?) Maternal instinct, perhaps? There are plenty of dudes who are community minded as well in a stereotypical sense - your coaches, ministers, polo wearing golf fanatics, lol - so it's not like it's gender exclusive. It does seem as if service is increasingly looked down upon (as religion faces more and more dissolution?), however. Maybe some people don't see themselves as above it though.



Veggie said:


> I also found that while the starting salary is generally higher (and steadier from there) than in a lot of fields, it plateaus more quickly as well - while the professions that require a bit more interface and schmoozing can keep going up monetarily with the right connections and creative license.


I've seen techies climb the ladder too, but often it seems there's more required in doing so. Continuing education (less in the form of credits, but more so degrees), endless certification requirements (I've noticed this trend, and quality control necessities, increasing significantly recently - money grubbing corruption on behalf of those capitalizing, lol), clearances, etc - the pay can be good but it comes at a price. For many it seemed to be more about the security (though I watched those who were especially skilled in negotiation get ahead a little more creatively - but then they were often less concerned with that security). 

There can be prestige in entrepreneurship and risk taking too though. I think it all ultimately comes down to lifestyle. The family unit isn't as easily defined as it used to be, so it pisses me off when I see feminism associated with trying to "prove" something in a man's world. I think it's a step backwards, not forwards, to be honest. Work smarter, not harder. Do what's best for you, so long as you're comfortable with it - especially if you're single. I did know some good entrepreneurs within the IT world. They did a lot of side jobs, or found a niche skill and charged quite a bit an hour for it. The only problem was that these were rare to the point of them having to take work wherever it was needed and an opportunity being offered. One man would travel the world on contracts. That left him pretty much having to support a wife and family, since she couldn't find a stable career (unless she got really creative or was content to wait tables or something that you can pretty much do universally - is she losing at life? Or is she supporting someone she loves and achieving the dream of travel most of us possess? Is he bringing home the bacon or are they a team? Would it be "progressive" if the tables were turned? What if she hates IT?)

So, hmm, my point? Maybe the assumption shouldn't be that women haven't taken thoughts like this into account, or that they're ill informed, selling themselves short, or oppressed. People have their reasons for things.



Veggie said:


> There was also a lot of on call work which worked as a conflict to some (especially new) mothers.


I also saw a lot of women jump ship once they had children too due to this kinda stuff - to technical writing, management, etc. Women are still often saddled with a lot of parental duties, some of them by necessity (if they choose to breast feed, for instance. Don't get me started on the trials and tribulations I witnessed when it came to this and breast pumping in the work place - more relevant feminist issues as far as I'm concerned...regarding the right to be feminine in patriarchal society, rather than promoting androgyny...if that's the aim than just conform to the pre-existing culture or make individual waves free of permission or potentially support - the good old fashioned ways imo, lol).


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## Impavida

PowerShell said:


> Would you agree every opportunity is available to you as it is to a man?


With the exception of a few military jobs, yes, childless women have all the same opportunities as men.

However, women with children have to choose between family and career in a way that men and childless women typically do not. I'm not sure I would say that limits their opportunities so much as they are just faced with different challenges/choices.


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## Madam

I have to agree with people in the first page, who were writing that women are simply discouraged from the beginning to pursue certain fields. Physics is for boys, girls suck at math, girls are caring and love all other people, women's logic, blah. Now that I look back to my last year of high school - we had a lot of career talk. I don't remember girls ever being encouraged to join STEM uni programs. Boys - yes. They were offered to check out this physics program and consider that IT course and what not. Girls no. There were a few really good ones though, but all of them are now studying law, art, nursing, and becoming teachers, whereas even the quite hopeless guys were pushed to join STEM. Needless to say that I've seen quite a few drop out, others are buying their papers, and yet others barely hang in there. 

Why we need more women in stem? Perhaps you'd want to have a good female professional instead of a bunch of guys who got in the uni just because some uni's desperately need to fill up their classes.


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## Draki

I'm studying computer science, and I really like it. I was in a class full of women before and found it terrible. But yeah I'm an INTP.. not the typical girl  
I really like that the boys sometimes "forget" that I'm a girl. 
So if you're a T girl and feel misunderstood/bored/whatever with girls as friends, go into a technical field


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## jinhong91

I get the impression that those people who are complaining that a certain field/industry is lacking a certain gender want equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

They want 50/50 in gender representation rather than equal chances regardless of gender. DO they actually need to have equal amount of people from both sides?

If I were to open my company, I would hire people who can do the job, gender be damned.


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## astriom

Actually, if you look at the way girls are traditionally brought up in our society, there are some very compelling reasons for women not to enter into male dominated careers. Specifically, when you address careers that are highly technical like IT or engineering, men are viewed as being talented while women are viewed as being hard working or industrious. Neither of those perspectives are inherently bad, but the implication is that women are not talented while men are and that women have to work harder to achieve the same results as men.

Another problem with this issue is the way society still addresses women's roles in the workplace. We still have this strange notion that certain professions are for men and others are for women. Many times, when people talk about a teacher, they will assume it's a woman, or a flight attendant or a nurse, or a secretary etc.. Movies, TV, commercials, and advertisements, have a strong influence on culture and society and tend to reinforce and perpetuate these norms, which encourage girls to be interested in feminine things and not masculine things.

Yet another problem, and one I have personally seen as a former member of the IT profession, is how women are treated within the profession. All of the women I had the opportunity to work with were bright and talented in their own right, but had to prove that they knew what they were doing every single time they did something because no one would take them seriously. I can't tell you how many times I was asked to double check their work, just because I'm a man as if that makes me more credible somehow.

I could go on and on and on about the reasons there aren't very many women in certain professions, but it all boils down to just a few reasons. Women are socially conditioned starting at a very young age to not be interested in male dominated professions. Men are socially conditioned starting at a very young age to not be interested in female dominated professions. And if one or the other violates this cultural norm, it's customary to ensure the person violating the norm knows that they are violating it. There are a lot of girls who show an interest in male dominated careers at an early age, but are later dissuaded by cultural norms and societal pressures. This very topic is something currently being researched by a lot of sociologists across the US right now.


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## Sara Torailles

Relevant XKCD:


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## Chichi01134

Well, as many may have already mentioned, this deep division is due to gender roles still having a strong presence in our society. We are used to the female secretary bringing us delitious cofee and answering our calls in foreign languages, rather than having an informatic division of women ready to fix whatever computer seems to have a problem in any way. It is thought that girls develop more on the sentimental/creative side and guys more on the rational/logical/mathematic stance. 

Obviously, this is all the big sponsorised bull**** they give us, because it seems the easiest way to place a set of given rules and simple stereotypes people can work after. 

In my opinion, if girls weren't so conditioned to begin with, they would also love to take an interest in things like computer science and quantum mechanics. I personally, could be flagged as tomboysh for all of the hobbys I have. I'm a girl but nonetheless, am fascinated by science, informatics, mechanics of any type, and bio-genetics. I also enjoy practising sports like Parkour and Badminton, whenever I get the chance to. Pretty much anything complex can fascinate me, and I must say... I even admit the fact that I watch hentai or NSFW manga whenever I feel my animalistic needs. All girls do at some point, as well as guys. Girls just tend to hide it or have a decreased sexual impulse due to having inner and not outter sexual organs (thus more difficult to stimulate). That's all. 

The media made up all the lot of other things we are used to see. People choose to be lobotomized by these things because they are not truly conscious that it could be different. That people like me or some of my friends could exsist. We humans try to make life as simple as possible to try and live well, but the truth is complicated beyond our own minds, sometimes.


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## narawithherthought

I am INFP and now I am grad student who is studying in Informatics field. I used to be an oracle developer a year but now I am more interested with data mining, web and mobile programming. The reason why I can survive in this T's world maybe because I am a dreamer. I always think about how to make things better, or how to make something is according to what I expected. However, I am on struggle to finish something that I started. And I should have good mood or a lot of motivation to build something.

When I was in undergraduate college, a half of my class were women. But, the reason why they entered this field because they were forced by their family or because IT field has good future and you won't be an unemployment. And when they graduated, most of them hate coding. They only have basic skill of programming and don't interest to be a programmer. Now, they work in bank as teller, administration office, teacher (computer teacher), or good housewife. If I'm not wrong, there were 20 or more women in my class, and only 2 (me and my best friend) who loves build something with programming. She is ISTJ.

And, regarding to this topic, why so few women pursuing this degree maybe because they find it really a troublesome. They want to make something that we can see by eyes, touch by hands, smell by nose (food), Another reason maybe because most of women are ESFJ.


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## nuut

IT seems boring as hell.


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## PowerShell

nuut said:


> IT seems boring as hell.


It can definitely be. Also stupid people can make you very mad.


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## Modal Soul

cos fuck that:///


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## tanstaafl28

1. There's no money in it, even for men.
2. Women aren't encouraged to follow that profession. 
3. There's no money in it, even for men.


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## PowerShell

tanstaafl28 said:


> 1. There's no money in it, even for men.
> 2. Women aren't encouraged to follow that profession.
> 3. There's no money in it, even for men.


What do you mean there's no money in IT? IT is probably one of the best paying careers out there.


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## coredev

The women I've worked with in IT are some of the best ones I've worked with. They were programmers and I learned a lot from them


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## coredev

tanstaafl28 said:


> 1. There's no money in it, even for men.
> 2. Women aren't encouraged to follow that profession.
> 3. There's no money in it, even for men.


Software is where the money is at.

The women I've worked with in IT are some of the best ones I've worked with. They were programmers and I learned a lot from them


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## Zero11

stiletto said:


> One of the major factors, I believe, is because as little girls, they had to fight against social grain to develop their logical side. Girls are encouraged/praised to engage in language, the arts, social studies etc. We see boys typically encouraged/praised when they do well in math, science and physical education.
> 
> This really isn't news. It isn't because women are not interested in these pursuits, they were simply "groomed" in a different starting direction.
> 
> What we need is teachers to angle children in all directions, moreso, to press girls and boys into "atypical" subjects to counteract the imbalance in childhood (for the next generation) before society and the education system can start balancing out (exposing kids to all subjects equally).


I am not able to change who I am neither are "little girls" your Explaination fails in every aspect.


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## summer210

i think it will change in the future ..i have a feeling...


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## stiletto

Zero11 said:


> I am not able to change who I am neither are "little girls" your Explaination fails in every aspect.


You may want to search my posts up in this thread. It would be pointless for me to repost my response.


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## tanstaafl28

coredev said:


> Software is where the money is at.
> 
> The women I've worked with in IT are some of the best ones I've worked with. They were programmers and I learned a lot from them


I too have known women who were extraordinary programmers. I'm certainly not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, IT is just not a very popular field. Ever since the "dot.com bubble" burst in the early '00s, many businesses have skimped on IT wherever possible, outsourcing to third-parties is rampant. I was hopping IT contracts and working 32 hour weeks because companies wanted to dodge paying out benefits to people they only needed when something breaks, viruses, or for batch upgrades. Now a lot of these companies are paying through the nose for all the massive security gaps their lack of funding has created. 

Programming isn't super hot right now either, but that tends to come and goes in waves.


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## tanstaafl28

PowerShell said:


> What do you mean there's no money in IT? IT is probably one of the best paying careers out there.


Where? Network security, maybe. That's a pretty specialized field.


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