# ENTP or ENFP?



## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

I will back off for now because I think I said enough already (the rest is up to you) and I really don't want to get into Ti-Te and Fi-Fe hypothetics, it's too wishy-washy for me to think about at that point. 

However I am curious what jetser would say about me. I also consider myself an nontypical, female xNTP.
@jetser, am I xNFP too in your eyes or not really? If yes - why? If not - what is the difference between me and goober?

I would probably say "I love to make people laugh but I'm oddly bad at it.", especially when I was younger (my sense of humor got more socially appropriate now, I used to unintentionally offend people all the time when I were younger, now it only happens with some people).

I totally identify with "My style is to ask questions in conversation and offer quirky observations or personal details about myself when it seems 'socially appropriate'". Although I actually prefer to answer questions than ask them - I love it when people ask me something and I can explain it to them based on my observations. 
And I like talking about myself too, especially about my experiences. And am still not very good at recognizing when it's socially appropriate to share what I see or think - but people usually let me go because I fix any mistakes using a Duchenne smile I learned at high school age.

And my answer for the bat wings question would be:
I imagine a person far away jumping out of a plane between clouds, wearing my clothes and having the wings - 3rd person view. I wouldn't really want to jump out by myself though - I would be pretty scared of the free fall, the wind on my face, the heights and the possibility of me squashed against ground or hitting trees like there is no tomorrow. Ough. I don't want to die yet and I don't want to feel the pain if I survive, thank you very much. I am not one of the 10 year old kids that watched too much Batman and decided to jump out of their house window (although I did try to fly using an umbrella or a shopping bag in the role of parachute by jumping off my balcony when I was their age, repeatably. It was actually fun).
However I believe it would be possible to make usable "bat wings". Just make a black, bat shaped wingsuit and you got it. I am not into extremal sports but it would be pretty easy to accomplish if you wanted to, were brave enough and had enough money and connections.



> But ENTPs - usually - are way more abstract and weird and are not really able to channel their feelings appropriately - Fi is their weak function overall: https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/commen..._by_functions/ "The individual does not normally pay attention to the nuances of interpersonal relationships" - but you seem aware of your feelings and don't come off as weird, more like playful and friendly.


I agree with that though. I actually did have alexithymia diagnosed ("a subclinical inability to identify and describe emotions in the self") although it got better after some therapy at age 25.



> Would you say something in front of an audience about yourself that you don't mean seriously just to get the conversation going?
> But nobody will ever know that you didn't mean it. No "I was just kidding"s or nothing. You said it, everybody moved on..etc.


I could do it as an actress, by getting into the role - sure, why not? And if someone asked me to pretend to be someone else (for example a guy asked me to pretend I am his daughter so I can get into his social group - I am keeping the lie on for almost a year already) or to make something up. And when I am actually making something up to give my arguments more sense. Come to think of it... I often forget to say "Lets assume I..." or add "Hypothetically speaking" when I do it.

But somehow the question gets me anxious and makes me want to answer "I couldn't do it because I hate laying about myself, especially when the lie stays forever". What if someone asks me about it at some point of time? 
Well... I guess it actually does happen a lot. People often tell me I said something I have no memory of saying or what was not something I mean. 

So to sum it up - I don't lie about myself or my own beliefs intentionally just to get conversation going, I am actually a painfully honest person. But my beliefs change all the time, I play devils advocate and I get in a role so easily the situations where I said something I don't actually mean but people took it as true and leave with that impression of me happen a lot, without me even realizing.

So yes and no, I guess? I don't do it intentionally but I do it a lot, without even realizing till someone points it out.



> Since you went there, you should know that there are four times as much female ENFPs than ENTPs. https://www.careerplanner.com/MB2/Ty...es-Females.cfm
> 9.7% for ENFPs and 2.4% for ENTPs.
> So if you are an Ne-dom and a female the chances are that you're ENFP.
> So I have to find a reason for you to NOT be an ENFP.


Makes just as much sense as the fact most people with Asperger are males. Just because girls are better at social skills due to early life forced socialisation doesn't mean there is actually less T/AS women. It just mean they fit in better and get misstyped/missdiagnosed. It's called slipping under the radar.

That kind of reasoning (So I have to find a reason for you to NOT be an ENFP) is like saying God exists because you can't prove he doesn't exist because most people believe God exists. That's not how it works.



> Your argument seems more like the Fi-Te kind. "I know what I am and I'm trying to get external proof for that".


I do it too. Because I start my topics after careful analysis and I am pretty sure what type I am and I try to test that conclusion against other people arguments. 



> You know, a Ti type probably would have criticized and scrutinized the source I gave (where it's from? who wrote it?) before claiming anything from it.


"Where it's from? who wrote it?" is actually very Te. I might criticize the website though - I find it's function explanations quite different to what I know them as. There is much similarities but enough differences to get me cunfused, like they are using a totally different function sets - that's why I don't like Socionics. Ne (or any other function) in Socionics is not Ne in MBTI. They can't be translated this way. ENTP is not exactly ENTp. It's not so simple. To get your type in Socionics you need to carefully study the functions are realize what the function means in Socionics and what it means in MBTI because they are not the same. If Ne in MBTI is 2 then Ne in Socionics is 1,7. Similar but by getting them into an equation you will get a different result. It might be similar enough to not make much difference but you can also end up in totally different type. You need to fully understand 2 different systems in order to type yourself in both MBTI and Socionics, remembering the differences in their functions. That's why I don't get into Socionics - I am yet to master MBTI and Socionics study only make a mess in my head. Once I feel MBTI functions are like 2nd nature to me I will study Socionics, but not yet. It will only mess my understanding if I try to learn them simultaneously.

It's like studying similar yet different languages - it's easy to make a mistake. For example Polish and Czech are pretty similar and you can understand what the other is speaking about if you know one by heart. But there are traps. For example the word "odchody". In Czech it means departures. In Polish... poop. :smug:


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## psychologic (Oct 16, 2014)

jetser said:


> I already told you, it's fine by me if you are an ENTP by choice, my opinion is that you're not.
> 
> And yes, this whole paragraph sounded Fi to me, not Ti.
> Especially the areas I marked in bold.
> ...


I could choose to type as whatever I want and I could convince people too, doesn’t mean it’s the right one. Call an egg a chicken, but it’s still an egg. That’s the issue here. The last bolded statement to my understanding is the opposite of Fi, which wishes to have its individuality honored and distinguished as well as live and let live. But you are solidified in your opinion now so I will take that into account. And anyway, isn’t that all this is? Sharing of opinions and clashing of perspectives? In a personality system which already has its flaws, we can only get so far into accuracy.


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## psychologic (Oct 16, 2014)

Shanti said:


> What made you think that you were ENFP before? And what has changed now that you no longer think you're ENFP?


I think it might’ve been a front to cope with trauma and an STJ-driven home environment. Ti exploration was discouraged, even though I asked “why?” to everything. I frequently challenged my parents and researched topics for myself on the down low. I also engaged in a lot of online debate beginning in middle school. I lived a double life. Well, it’s less stressful to keep the peace rather than frequently create conflict, so as a result my Fe is higher. It also accelerated Fi development because I sought means through which to escape my reality, interpreted as my “Fi likes/dislikes”, when actually I would criticize everything in my brain (Kpop, cheesy comic books, etc.) and also found fun in mentally poking fun of things. I think a Ne-Fe loop is probable here. 

But the front could still be a sign of core ENFP. I mean I ran around screaming “I love cheese” in second grade and wrote a story about dog resurrection. But had I grown up in an environment where my Ti was encouraged, I have no doubts that I would have a more typically ENTP presentation. So that’s where the confusion lays. I could pick ENFP and think it doesn’t represent me most accurately, or pick ENTP and feel others don’t think it represents me accurately.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Kiriae said:


> I will back off for now because I think I said enough already (the rest is up to you) and I really don't want to get into Ti-Te and Fi-Fe hypothetics, it's too wishy-washy for me to think about at that point.
> 
> However I am curious what jetser would say about me. I also consider myself an nontypical, female xNTP.
> @jetser, am I xNFP too in your eyes or not really? If yes - why? If not - what is the difference between me and goober?
> ...


No, your answers are Ti-Ne in my opinion.
The difference I see between you and goober is that I don't see you taking it personally everything I say.
And you're cool with your own logic (Ti.) I don't see you reaching for a new piece of information every time like goober does.




> "Where it's from? who wrote it?" is actually very Te.


Could be Te but the point is someone with higher T would have questioned that piece of evidence instead of claiming that it is her. Especially Ti.
Te is okay with whatever works in his case.




> If Ne in MBTI is 2 then Ne in Socionics is 1,7. Similar but by getting them into an equation you will get a different result. It might be similar enough to not make much difference but you can also end up in totally different type.


You see, you analyze. You actually analyze the situation and are using logic.
This is Ti. I don't see her doing that.

@goober

"Call an egg a chicken, but it’s still an egg. That’s the issue here. The last bolded statement to my understanding is the opposite of Fi, which wishes to have its individuality honored and distinguished as well as live and let live."

No, Fi is making personal judgments about a situation. Whatever the judgment is, if you made a personal one it is F.
Since you established that you are Ne-dom and I can see that in your posts, your only option is to be an ENFP.
And this was a Ti deduction for your information.


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## psychologic (Oct 16, 2014)

@jetser What’s with the type change? 
Do you trust the MBTI as a logically accurate system of personality categorization? Or is it a system which you have spent much time on learning all the rules and, despite it having inherent flaws, using what you’ve learned, you categorize people in the manner which most closely aligns with the established rules outlined by Jung, trustworthy sources which cater to your subjective interpretation of logic, etc.?


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

@jetser 
Thanks. It made me go through goobers messages again. I still can't decide whatever she is Fi-Te to Ti-Fe but your arguments are valid - she does use a lot of Fi argumentation and a lot of Ti-Fe I see in her might be my confirmation bias. 

For example:



> > I guess it could be possible. But in that case you will never be able to identify as one of 16 types or even one of 64 types (including possible loops/grips). Allowing such situation would make about 4 thousand possible personality types. And much more if we add the use of some other out of stack functions. Personality theory is meant to simplify and generalize, not to describe as accurately as possible. Therefore it has it's rules. One of the rules is "Everyone prefers only one of Thinking, Feeling, Sensing and Intuitive functions", the other is "Everyone uses 2 extrovertic and 2 introvertic functions".
> 
> 
> Thank you for this clarification. Perhaps that's where my disagreement lays. I have issues with the generalizations because I find them to be inaccurate, especially on an individual basis. But that certainly makes it difficult to succumb to one general type, as I am oddly laser-focused on finding the most accurate classifications through which to describe myself.


It's actually a classic example of Fi: being against generalizations on an individual basis. 
Being "oddly laser-focused on finding the most accurate classifications through which to describe myself" is very Fi too but I can't say I wouldn't say the same about myself - I am also obsessed about finding a type that describes me as accurately as possible. 

@goober 
We are getting nowhere right now so can you tell us how you were as a kid? 
It might be easier to type you without tertiary interfering.

Well, you are actually saying you were like an ENFP since you were a kid till recently, and then you started to present yourself as ENTP. People often experience a personality change at age 18-35, related to tertiary function development. In ENFP case it would be Te, therefore it wouldn't be surprising they you started to look like a thinker all of sudden.

The older someone is the more difficult it gets to accurately type them because their functions grow up. By the age of 60 even the inferior function is used skillfully, creating a balanced personality as long as nothing really bad happened in the persons development.


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## erickalexander (Jul 16, 2018)

Man I hope you’re an ENTP, we need more people to take over the world with our charm and Ne.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Kiriae said:


> @jetser
> Thanks. It made me go through goobers messages again. I still can't decide whatever she is Fi-Te to Ti-Fe but your arguments are valid - she does use a lot of Fi argumentation and a lot of Ti-Fe I see in her might be my confirmation bias.
> 
> For example:


Yep.
The big difference between ENTPs and ENFP is that ENTPs argue about totally unrelated impersonal stuff.
You can find them arguing about space traveling, colonization, ships and planes, world war stuff, movies, stuff like that - but from a totally detached, impersonal view.
ENFPs will argue about things that they personally relate to.
It does't matter for an ENTP if he agrees with someone personally or not, because he doesn't care how he personally feels about anything. All that matters to an ENTP whether it's possible or not, and if yes, how he can achieve that.

The bat wings question was for that. An ENTP would fall into a high level discussion how it's possible and what to make of it.
An ENFP - the idealist he/she is - will consider that "anything is possible" and will immediately see herself doing it while coming up with ideas about how he/she will do it.
That settled for me honestly.


ENTP: goes deep into an idea, dissect it, put it together etc.
ENFP: ideas, ideas, ideas each after each and it never ends..


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## psychologic (Oct 16, 2014)

jetser said:


> Yep.
> The big difference between ENTPs and ENFP is that ENTPs argue about totally unrelated impersonal stuff.
> You can find them arguing about space traveling, colonization, ships and planes, world war stuff, movies, stuff like that - but from a totally detached, impersonal view.
> ENFPs will argue about things that they personally relate to.
> ...


You’re completely going off of stereotypes. If we were in a thread about colonization, I'd be having that discussion.

“Doesn’t matter for an ENTP if he agrees with someone personally or not”. So you think ENTPs don’t have a lick of Fe? Having mutual personal agreement on something leads to social unity and harmony. That is Fe’s domain, not Fi’s. Fi stops at “personal agreement” because they like how it feels. 

ENTPs are just as much idealists as ENFP because idealism comes from N. ENTPs are more logical with how they interpret them. Also, need I mention that @Kiriae did not do what you’re saying NTP types would do when presented with the Batman scenario? Aside from a few differences, we had the same kind of response. So your example isn’t working.


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

goober said:


> “Doesn’t matter for an ENTP if he agrees with someone personally or not”. So you think ENTPs don’t have a lick of Fe? Having mutual personal agreement on something leads to social unity and harmony. That is Fe’s domain, not Fi’s. Fi stops at “personal agreement” because they like how it feels.


Not really. I can still be friends or have fun time with someone with a totally different world view, it's not going to bother me at all - in fact it will be interesting. Harmony isn't about sharing the same opinion - it's about respecting/accepting others even if you have nothing in common except for being in the same group. 

I have very few enemies because I rarely clash with anyone and when I do it's only because apparently I don't "respect" their social standing (some people get angry with me because I "question their authority" or don't take their "life experiences" for granted - that's pretty much the only case I make enemies - and I will be friends with them again as soon as they stop their high and mighty, "I'm offended" behaviour and realize I am not an enemy but a mere bratty kid). 
I am friendly and understanding with anyone - kids and adults, poor and wealthy, stupid and inteligent, girly girls and macho boys, **** and hetero, atheists and religion fanatics, pro and against abortion, goody two shoes and repeatable law breakers... I am very laid back when it comes with people opinions because my opinion about most issues is neutral - I see arguments on both sides and I don't care enough to make a decision. I am a chameleon.

Although I will step up and won't stop till I fix the situation when I see someone being bullied/treated unfair/miserable. Even if it is a mere cat - yesterday I freaked out because my flatmate's cat was getting an injection, she said "They are not even giving you the injection and you are more terrified than the cat is" and I answered "There is no difference". Actually it was worse BECAUSE it was a cat which doesn't understand why they are "bullying" it and which would move and break the needle any moment, getting even more pain. Eventually the cat didn't get the injection because I explained to them it's impossible (the cat was moving too much, damn cat) and the stress and possible wound are not worth the injection benefits.

It just pushes my buttons and if I can't solve it I will be traumatized for like a half of hour. 



> ENTPs are just as much idealists as ENFP because idealism comes from N. ENTPs are more logical with how they interpret them. Also, need I mention that @Kiriae did not do what you’re saying NTP types would do when presented with the Batman scenario? Aside from a few differences, we had the same kind of response. So your example isn’t working.


Agree - the bat example was a bad one. I pretty much responded the same way as goober did so it didn't prove anything.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

goober said:


> You’re completely going off of stereotypes.


Okay. You're ENTP. You asked I answered. I would be blind to not notice that you've already made up your mind when opening this thread.
If you're not interested in this stuff, why you keep asking? Just put the label on and move on.



> So you think ENTPs don’t have a lick of Fe? Having mutual personal agreement on something leads to social unity and harmony. That is Fe’s domain, not Fi’s.


Tertiary Fe is about big broad sentiments which are observable and obvious, not personal agreements.
An ENTP is happy when everyone is on the same page and they're having a good time. It doesn't matter what's going on a personal level.
An ENTP won't probably even register if he's in a disagreement with someone until it becomes obvious. Like they're shouting at each other.
So an ENTP probably _wants_ personal agreements but he's the worst one to actually go through with them.



> ENTPs are just as much idealists as ENFP because idealism comes from N.


N is not idealism, it only becomes idealism when it's coupled with F.
Ne is about possibilities. Which are equally observable for both ENFP and ENTP but their answer to them is different.
ENTP is looking at the application. How can I use it? How can make this a _thing_? How can I communicate it to the people?
ENFP is looking at the personal relation. What is my angle on this idea? How can I use this to better people's lives? How can I live with this idea, and what is gonna cost me?
This is not generalization, this is Ti vs Fi. Fe vs Te.



> ENTPs are more logical with how they interpret them.


Yes, that's the point.
So when I ask them about something silly (like flying with bat wings), they probably realize it is silly and don't take it too seriously.
If you think that ENTPs are ready to do whatever comes to their mind then you're probably full of generalizations yourself.



> Aside from a few differences, we had the same kind of response.


You've both showed Ne (comparing things, imagining, taking things a step farther etc..) but Kiriae's answered went deep into those comparisons and came up with a result on her own.
Your answers showed a lot of idealism which were not grounded, not analysed and they didn't go very deep into the idea, more like they induced other ideas and jumped around a lot like Te does.
You also showed a need for an external value system (which was even morally based) while ENTPs usually don't need external systems and introduce their own to the world through Fe.


If you still don't get it look for Steve Jobs presentations and how he channels his ideas through Fe but each one of them has their own logical background and he doesn't finish until it's all explained and fit into a (bigger) logical frame.
And then look how Michio Kaku explains the universe by jumping from idea to idea without the subtle explanation but with a lot of enjoyment and cheeriness which inspires people.

ENTP:







ENFP:


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## Guajiro (Nov 16, 2017)

You might want to ear this to understand the polarities of the functions. It's a Podcast from Personality Hacker. The man is an ENFP and the women is an ENTP. I really find their observations useful

https://soundcloud.com/personalityhacker/polarities-in-the-cognitive-functions-phq-podcast


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## psychologic (Oct 16, 2014)

jetser said:


> Okay. You're ENTP. You asked I answered. I would be blind to not notice that you've already made up your mind when opening this thread.
> If you're not interested in this stuff, why you keep asking? Just put the label on and move on.


See? I pushed you and now you're saying something different. But I'm not sure if you're saying that because you actually agree, or if you are conceding for the sake of good relations. That's probably why I keep asking. Also, I'm more drawn to people who disagree with me. Pushing them for answers usually leads to more insight and impartiality than talking about how much I agree with a person. 



> Tertiary Fe is about big broad sentiments which are observable and obvious, not personal agreements.
> An ENTP is happy when everyone is on the same page and they're having a good time. It doesn't matter what's going on a personal level.
> An ENTP won't probably even register if he's in a disagreement with someone until it becomes obvious. Like they're shouting at each other.
> So an ENTP probably _wants_ personal agreements but he's the worst one to actually go through with them.


By contrast, an ENFP is happy when each person in a group is discussing what makes them unique (often with polite laughter)? 



> N is not idealism, it only becomes idealism when it's coupled with F.
> Ne is about possibilities. Which are equally observable for both ENFP and ENTP but their answer to them is different.
> ENTP is looking at the application. How can I use it? How can make this a _thing_? How can I communicate it to the people?
> ENFP is looking at the personal relation. What is my angle on this idea? *How can I use this to better people's lives?* How can I live with this idea, and what is gonna cost me?
> This is not generalization, this is Ti vs Fi. Fe vs Te.


Not an official source by any means, but here's a thread of NTPs talking about their idealism.

In reference to ENTP looking for application, "How can I make this a thing"... did I not show my theorizing by noting I looked into the mechanics of flight and possible materials that might make it possible? And to the bolded, I think that's Fe. Fi would say "I want the world to reflect my inner morals", right? 



> Yes, that's the point.
> So when I ask them about something silly (like flying with bat wings), they probably realize it is silly and don't take it too seriously.
> If you think that ENTPs are ready to do whatever comes to their mind then you're probably full of generalizations yourself.
> 
> ...


How is this Fi? 



> If you still don't get it look for Steve Jobs presentations and how he channels his ideas through Fe but each one of them has their own logical background and he doesn't finish until it's all explained and fit into a (bigger) logical frame.
> And then look how Michio Kaku explains the universe by jumping from idea to idea without the subtle explanation but with a lot of enjoyment and cheeriness which inspires people.
> 
> ENTP:
> ...


Thanks for these examples. I found the biggest difference to be the effect they're looking to have on the crowd. Steve was looking to impress -- get a real reaction out of the crowd, as well as keep them entertained. Michio is looking more to explain, relay information simply. Do you have an example of an ENTP explaining a topic like the Michio video? That would be a better comparison as I can see how an ENTP's explanation may be more linear and thus easier to absorb.


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## psychologic (Oct 16, 2014)

Kiriae said:


> Not really. I can still be friends or have fun time with someone with a totally different world view, it's not going to bother me at all - in fact it will be interesting. Harmony isn't about sharing the same opinion - it's about respecting/accepting others even if you have nothing in common except for being in the same group.
> 
> I have very few enemies because I rarely clash with anyone and when I do it's only because apparently I don't "respect" their social standing (some people get angry with me because I "question their authority" or don't take their "life experiences" for granted - that's pretty much the only case I make enemies - and I will be friends with them again as soon as they stop their high and mighty, "I'm offended" behaviour and realize I am not an enemy but a mere bratty kid).
> I am friendly and understanding with anyone - kids and adults, poor and wealthy, stupid and inteligent, girly girls and macho boys, **** and hetero, atheists and religion fanatics, pro and against abortion, goody two shoes and repeatable law breakers... I am very laid back when it comes with people opinions because my opinion about most issues is neutral - I see arguments on both sides and I don't care enough to make a decision. I am a chameleon.


I'm in the same position, I find it easy to understand anyone's point of view and get along with them. I'm a social chameleon. Accidentally offending people can make things awkward if I'm too aware that I've made a social blunder. Like, cussing in front of a super conservative mom or something. But sometimes I don't realize until some Fe-heavy person points out the mistake a little while later. And, I may have recognition that something might be offensive to someone, but not at that person's expense. 



> Although I will step up and won't stop till I fix the situation when I see someone being bullied/treated unfair/miserable. Even if it is a mere cat - yesterday I freaked out because my flatmate's cat was getting an injection, she said "They are not even giving you the injection and you are more terrified than the cat is" and I answered "There is no difference". Actually it was worse BECAUSE it was a cat which doesn't understand why they are "bullying" it and which would move and break the needle any moment, getting even more pain. Eventually the cat didn't get the injection because I explained to them it's impossible (the cat was moving too much, damn cat) and the stress and possible wound are not worth the injection benefits.
> 
> It just pushes my buttons and if I can't solve it I will be traumatized for like a half of hour.


That's totally understandable, the thought of a needle breaking is frightening. Nice that you convinced them otherwise. I feel a similar weirdness when dogs or cats need to get their temperatures checked rectally... like you are sticking something up its butt without consent, they have no idea why that's happening. It's reasonable to think they'll forget about it within minutes, but animals can also suffer with PTSD, so... 

But, I'll tell you a little about my childhood. I moved to a new city in 4th grade. This clingy girl from my old school moved to the new one with me that same year. We kind of became friends out of desperation and convenience. I became possessive of her when she started to make a new friend because I feared I'd be alone. So we adopted her into the group. Problem solved. In middle school I became somewhat of the leader. 

I used to be very apathetic about hurting people. I've been on-and-off klepto since elementary school. I stole a paid subscription to a virtual pet website from my sister's friend when I was in 4th grade. No one suspected that I'd done it, they thought she'd gotten anonymously hacked. I swear I almost got caught, but I'm kind of good at lying. These aren't the kind of things people would know about me, because I am good at crafting a generally normal public appearance. I want to fit in with society, to a healthy extent, and most of the things I deduce about people I keep to myself unless someone else is interested to hear it. I think I am very perceptive of people now... I just didn't used to be. 

I had a friend in middle school. I liked her enough, but she got made fun of a lot for being fat. My other friend told me the fat friend was talking shit about me (I didn't care), and so the friend began ostracizing her. I was so uninterested in my social life that I just let her slip away. Which sucks, because I think I preferred her company, but she appears to be doing really well in life now. I still think of apologizing and reconnecting. But that may be an example of how my Fe began to evolve, because I began to notice ways that I lose connections with others. So this caused me to be insecure about it happening in the future. 

To be honest, I'm still confused about Fi and Ti. Too many whataboutisms floating in my brain. My morality is quite flexible, but things I've deduced about society (through what I think is Ti) is not so much, because if they are in my established logical system, they're there because they've passed intense scrutiny. I studied Christianity, as well as debated with online folk about it, for years before I finally decided to abandon ship. And I'm not bothered in debates when religious people get huffy, because I look past the emotional reaction and keep it logical. In middle school I would get a bit pompous in online debates because I was so focused on being _right_ that I didn't think about how I was burning bridges for no reason. Now I'd rather find common ground or calmly point out errors in others' logical reasoning, and if they are offended by that, then so be it. 



> Agree - the bat example was a bad one. I pretty much responded the same way as goober did so it didn't prove anything.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

goober said:


> By contrast, an ENFP is happy when each person in a group is discussing what makes them unique (often with polite laughter)?


These are stereotypes but yes. An ENFP is probably keeping close contacts with one or two people instead of paying attention to the overall atmosphere of the group.
Meanwhile an ENTP probably tells jokes or tries to elevate the group's atmosphere any other way.



> How is this Fi?


It's not Fi it's Te. Te is common values shared by most people.
Like the metric system. Or Einstein's General relativity.
These are shared values. The thing that makes them Te and not Fe is they are impersonal. They are rigid and are true to anybody regardless of who they are.
ENTP - usually - don't like these rules. They want to knock down these rules. (The Joker?)
They want to set up and implement their own rules. Like Steve Jobs did it with Apple.
ENFP doesn't have a problem with established rules, unless they cut into their personal beliefs. (Fi)
I think it was a typical ENFP sentence: _"No idea is sacred unless it can be agreed on by the vast majority: an objective value. The Golden Rule is an example of that, a moral which has been replicated through many periods of time and cultures and is quite hard to deny."_



> Thanks for these examples. I found the biggest difference to be the effect they're looking to have on the crowd. Steve was looking to impress -- get a real reaction out of the crowd, as well as keep them entertained. Michio is looking more to explain, relay information simply.


roud:



> Do you have an example of an ENTP explaining a topic like the Michio video? That would be a better comparison as I can see how an ENTP's explanation may be more linear and thus easier to absorb.


Yeah, I would have linked him sooner, but I'm not actually sure he's an ENTP but there's no denying that he's using Ti-Fe so maybe it will do.


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

goober said:


> But, I'll tell you a little about my childhood. I moved to a new city in 4th grade. This clingy girl from my old school moved to the new one with me that same year. We kind of became friends out of desperation and convenience. I became possessive of her when she started to make a new friend because I feared I'd be alone. So we adopted her into the group. Problem solved. In middle school I became somewhat of the leader.


About my situation: I also moved to a new city in 4th grade and I wanted to make friends but I was failing badly. There was quite a few people I could make friends with (girls living next to me, a smart boy) but for some reason they didn't want to be my friends. 

I was probably too open. I was always like that - kids in playground were often afraid of me because I could just come to them and ask "Hi, I am Kate, want to play together?" while they were hiding behind their moms. The moms were amazed by my behaviour and telling the kids to play with me. But it rarely ever happened. 

I was bullied at school because of that - I was socially naive and an open book. If I liked something I was all excited, if I was upset I was crying and throwing a tantrum. People considered it fun to pick on me. And I would easily forget and act like it didn't happen the next day, especially if they said "I'm sorry". I was getting pocket money so a few people were friends with me because I would borrow them money/toys too, never asking for return.
I switched friends a lot - every 2 years on average the person I was sitting with was changing to someone else either because they bullied me enough or because I found someone more entertaining. Sometimes it was happening very fast - one day I decided I am going to sit next to Ann all of sudden so I sat there and when the Paul (Ann's friend) came I told her I am sitting here today. Then a conflict was staring because of course Paul didn't want to sit with Mary (my deskmate) but Ann. Usually I was being forced out back to my place of course. :laughing: 

Outside of school I had a few different groups of friends. I wanted them to get along with each other and never understood why they don't want to play together although I liked playing with all of them. I tried to make them get along but they hated each other for some reason.
I was never a leader though. My high school best friend ENFJ was, I was her sidekick. High school was the time when I finally learned to read people, fight when bullied and not fall into traps pretending to be nice just to make fun of me.



> I used to be very apathetic about hurting people. I've been on-and-off klepto since elementary school. I stole a paid subscription to a virtual pet website from my sister's friend when I was in 4th grade. No one suspected that I'd done it, they thought she'd gotten anonymously hacked. I swear I almost got caught, but I'm kind of good at lying. These aren't the kind of things people would know about me, because I am good at crafting a generally normal public appearance. I want to fit in with society, to a healthy extent, and most of the things I deduce about people I keep to myself unless someone else is interested to hear it. I think I am very perceptive of people now... I just didn't used to be.


I would never be able to do that. Stealing from someone means they will feel hurt and I never wanted people to be hurt.

The only thing I ever stole were pocket money from my parents. I don't ever consider it a theft. They would give me the money if I asked but I couldn't ask them because they were not home and I wouldn't exactly predict I will want to go to a swimming pool that day or get money for food - so I had to search the house instead. I would tell them where the money went of they asked but they rarely did - they probably were not even aware because those were small amounts. 
It isn't something I would hide from people - I was doing what was needed. 

I would also never lie. I learned to use white lies in middle school but before that I would just say what's on my mind. I valued the truth too much. If anyone asked me anything they were getting the truth, no matter how much trouble it would get me or other people in. Another reason I was hated by my classmates. I would always blurt out our secrets, unless they clearly told me "it's a secret so don't tell anyone".

As much as bullied I was I never considered getting it back on my bullies. I would tell on them to the teachers or parents so they would help me solve the situation but the idea of bullying them back was foreign to me. The only defence method I ever learned(which happened in last class of middle school) was "ignore if it's nothing serious and fight if it gets dangerous".



> I had a friend in middle school. I liked her enough, but she got made fun of a lot for being fat. My other friend told me the fat friend was talking shit about me (I didn't care), and so the friend began ostracizing her. I was so uninterested in my social life that I just let her slip away. Which sucks, because I think I preferred her company, but she appears to be doing really well in life now. I still think of apologizing and reconnecting. But that may be an example of how my Fe began to evolve, because I began to notice ways that I lose connections with others. So this caused me to be insecure about it happening in the future.


I was often friends with social misfits (being one myself I found it easier to make friends with them than with the preps) and I would listen to people ostracizing them. The more people were bulling them the more I wanted to prove them wrong and I wouldn't believe rumors till I saw them with my own eyes, and even then I would forgive as long as I was able to rationalize their choice. For example I forgiven a friendly classmate for taking my pants in front of the whole class because I learned he would be bullied instead if he didn't do it - he was a nerd and had to be careful not to get on the wrong side of class, where I already was. I understood psychology of masses well enough already.



> To be honest, I'm still confused about Fi and Ti. Too many whataboutisms floating in my brain. My morality is quite flexible, but things I've deduced about society (through what I think is Ti) is not so much, because if they are in my established logical system, they're there because they've passed intense scrutiny. I studied Christianity, as well as debated with online folk about it, for years before I finally decided to abandon ship. And I'm not bothered in debates when religious people get huffy, because I look past the emotional reaction and keep it logical. In middle school I would get a bit pompous in online debates because I was so focused on being _right_ that I didn't think about how I was burning bridges for no reason. Now I'd rather find common ground or calmly point out errors in others' logical reasoning, and if they are offended by that, then so be it.


I dropped the Christianity early on, around 6th grade. I saw through the facade - people would tell they believe in God, go to Church every Sunday and think badly of you if you didn't but they would bully anyone they felt didn't deserve to be threated nice, manipulate people and do whatever they could to skip school and homework. Seriously - how is it even possible for people to break all the points of being a "good person" and still go to heaven, just because they go to Church and believe? So I decided either God is in fact a devil and the Church is all backwards or all the fake believers go to hell. I didn't like any of the possibilities so I decided God probably just doesn't exist. To save myself too - I was told I am a bad person all the time and that I will go to hell by not going to Church and not respecting parents so I needed to break away or believe I am doomed by my questioning nature.

I didn't even take the confirmation sacrament, despite observing all of my classmates working on it for a few months and getting asked "Why aren't you going?" and told "You will have trouble getting married in the future if you don't take it.". The truth was I didn't believe in religion anymore at that point so even if I did take the sacrament it wouldn't be valid anyway because confirmation sacrament is meant to be done by a mature person that is making a concious choice of belonging in the religion, it's similar to baptism, but concious. Taking it would make a me a lier to myself and to the God if God exists. I decided I will deal with it if I change my mind later on (and I still don't believe). As for marriage - I am not planning to get married and if I ever decide to I can either take just the law marriage or if my partner insists to I can get Christian church as a non-believer - they only thing I have to promise is I wont interfere with raising kids according to Christian rules and I see it no worse than fairly tales or Santa Claus. Believing there is a God that watches your steps and helps you if you are a good person can be beneficial.

During middle school I also went through a period of believing myself as an incarnated demon, to explain why I differ so much from the believers, why they hate me so much and why I find it so difficult to fit in. I grew up from that eventually but it was fun and helped me a big deal. Lots of the self confidence I have now results in what I learned back then because it was a huge time of social experiments for me. I let myself go and started fighting back and standing up to myself because I had an excuse "I could easily kill them if I didn't decide I don't want to hurt people so they should be happy fighting back is all I do". I had a huge case of 8th grader syndrome, although I would tell people about my delusions because I knew they wouldn't believe me or would send me to a mental hospital if I went and started speaking about being a demon in public, lol. I knew I am probably just a delusional human anyway - but I prefered to keep my delusions because they were beneficial to my mental health and my life overall. I was never bullied again after 9th grade.


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## Shanti (Jul 18, 2018)

@goober, can you provide arguments why you are NOT ENTP?
Also, why are any other types out of consideration? I feel quite strong Fe from your childhood/teens description.
@Kiriae, very interesting childhood story. I can relate to some parts. But it seems you always was able to stand for yourself (I couldn't). Interesting part about demon thing. I wonder if it wouldn't be more Fi+Ne thing though? I had my own fantasies as well as a kid/teen (I thought I was from another planet). From your description you strike me as an extrovert.
Though when I read your posts, I always picture male for some reason. I have to constantly remind myself that you are female. Even though I don't like stereotypes of male/female.


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## psychologic (Oct 16, 2014)

jetser said:


> These are stereotypes but yes. An ENFP is probably keeping close contacts with one or two people instead of paying attention to the overall atmosphere of the group.
> Meanwhile an ENTP probably tells jokes or tries to elevate the group's atmosphere any other way.


It depends on if I know the people in the group well enough or not. If I don't know anyone, I mingle politely and pick out people I would seem to get along with easily, like what Kiriae does. If I know one person, I'll slowly branch from my friend to interact with others, or just spend time with the friend. If I know mostly everyone, I make jokes, mess around, say stuff to keep the atmosphere light-hearted. 



> It's not Fi it's Te. Te is common values shared by most people.
> Like the metric system. Or Einstein's General relativity.
> These are shared values. The thing that makes them Te and not Fe is they are impersonal. They are rigid and are true to anybody regardless of who they are.
> ENTP - usually - don't like these rules. They want to knock down these rules. (The Joker?)
> ...


Shared values are established by organized religions, social customs/norms, etc. Your examples relate to Te which are externally accepted rules of logical progress, like educational systems, the health care system, laws, food production, etc. 

I could see how the objective morality seems like Te because it implies that people _must_ follow these morals through forced action, which is Te. It's worthy to note that the categorical imperative, which is basically the upgraded Golden Rule, was devised by an INTP. And if you read about the imperative, it actually seems like a combination between Te and Fe. It covers Fe because it establishes a social rule which benefits all others in the group/society.

When I say "agreed on by the vast majority", I'm referring to the importance of consensus. If a law is passed and nearly half of people disagree with it, that's a bomb that will lead to more conflict and pent-up anger before exploding. So laying down objective social rules which unite people in a manner which they are happy and feel connected with one another, prevents conflict. Learning about alternative perspectives is enlightening. But even better is figuring out how to synthesize two opinions to promote cooperation with another. 



> roud:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I would have linked him sooner, but I'm not actually sure he's an ENTP but there's no denying that he's using Ti-Fe so maybe it will do.


What I notice about Neil deGrasse Tyson (who I've seen most often typed as ENFJ) is he has noticeable confidence in his acquired knowledge. He and Jobs give off the impression of knowing their subjects inside and out and not being afraid to show it. They're smooth. No awkward stutters, naturally captivating delivery. This could be a major difference between Ti and Fi. If Ti is smooth, Fi is fuzzy. Michio was a fun fuzzball. But his demeanor/presentation might be different if he presents live in front of an audience like in Jobs' video. And the format/aesthetic of Michio's video may conjure more connotations of Feeling over Thinking.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

goober said:


> It depends on if I know the people in the group well enough or not. If I don't know anyone, I mingle politely and pick out people I would seem to get along with easily, like what Kiriae does. If I know one person, I'll slowly branch from my friend to interact with others, or just spend time with the friend. If I know mostly everyone, I make jokes, mess around, say stuff to keep the atmosphere light-hearted.
> 
> Shared values are established by organized religions, social customs/norms, etc. Your examples relate to Te which are externally accepted rules of logical progress, like educational systems, the health care system, laws, food production, etc.
> 
> ...


You may be an ENTP after all. I'm on the fence right now.



> What I notice about Neil deGrasse Tyson (who I've seen most often typed as ENFJ) is he has noticeable confidence in his acquired knowledge. He and Jobs give off the impression of knowing their subjects inside and out and not being afraid to show it. They're smooth. No awkward stutters, naturally captivating delivery. This could be a major difference between Ti and Fi. If Ti is smooth, Fi is fuzzy. Michio was a fun fuzzball. But his demeanor/presentation might be different if he presents live in front of an audience like in Jobs' video. And the format/aesthetic of Michio's video may conjure more connotations of Feeling over Thinking.


After watching this video I'm pretty sure he's ENTP (at least not ENFJ) but I wasn't sure before.

To be honest I don't watch many Michio because I don't like how he just lays it out there instead of capturing the logic behind the phenomena.


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## Charus (May 31, 2017)

Sorry for intefereing in this thread, but I'm also confused If whether I'm an ENTP or ENFP.

I try to research it myself, but It's so hard to figure out if I'm using Fi - Te or Ti - Fe. Thats why I need confirmation from others of which type I'm am, I prefer it when other people confirm which type I'm am, because they tend to have more knowledge than me, where I barely know things about MBTI types.

I didnt want to create yet another thread of typing me because I already made like hundreds of them, and I'm sure people would get annoyied seeing another thread of mine asking people to type me. 

Also the reason why I post here is just to not create another duplicate "ENTP or ENFP" thread.

Ahem. So, anyway...

I was watching TheFearRaiser's "MOST AWKWARD CRUSHES! #2 | Animated True Stories (Raiserverse)" video. It's a video basicaly people telling their crush stories, and that I look at it, the tellers tell that how they are stupid and awkward in front of their crush, while I myself see It's that their crushes are the ones that are stupid and awkward. In this video it basicaly shows how their crushes make some stupid and awkward reactions (TL;DR: Going full retard) after realising or that the "Storyteller" confess that they have an crush on them. Like instead of going like complete retard, why can't you just politely refuse and be done? It's not that hard for goodness sake. Seriously those "Crushes" have really great punchable faces.

Not that I had those situations in my own life, but I can imagine myself being thrown into one, hence it pisses me off.

Now another typical of my ranting, It's my own father... UUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH how annoying he can be.

I dont know about you, but always comes as sort of rude, which is kinda annoying sometimes. Everytime I ask him why is he is yelling at me, he he comes with the typical response "I'm not yelling at you, It's just how I talk."

I know I already told this in my previous threads but... He always have this annoying tendency to talk out-loudly to himself, I his whispering is annoying as hell, and every time I tell him to stop that (Basicaly shut up) he lashes out on me on a rude way. Also, he is very stubborn and keeps blaming things on me, which is also piss the hell out of me.

Many people said that I take things to seriously, and well yeah, I'm more of an serious person.

And for lastly, ENTP's known for their offensive and gross humor. I'm not keen for this kind of humor, You should realise this by reading my signature. I tend to respect what other people like or prefer, and making humor/jokes out of their hobbies and their preferences is just rude, and It's hilarious how they always throw the "Grow a thinker skin" argument every time someone dares to oppose their oh so almighty greatest sense of humor. Also, I dislike Rude people in general.


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