# 593 - The Thinker Archetype?



## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

What's your experience with this tritype? How would/does it play out in real time? Spanks. :kitteh:


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

I found this but I'm not totally satisfied with it. Need more sources...preferably forum sources. ;}



> *5-9-3: these Fives are naturally diplomatic, peaceful and somewhat charismatic. They care about harmony and balance and are a bit anxious of people’s rejection and disapproval. Very sentient and tactful, they know how to reach their objectives without causing much fuss around them – they go with the flow and adapt to people and situations in a facile manner. They’re the type of people that others don’t see coming, skillfully speculating opportunities to their advantage while keeping a low profile.
> typical subtypes: self-preserving, social, 5w6
> similar tritypes: 5-3-9, 9-5-3
> flavours: tactful, well-mannered, collected and adaptable
> *


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## DarwinsBastard (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi, I may be able to help.

It would help to have some specific questions, otherwise you're probably just going to get a rambling mess, but I'll answer a little.


I'm going to assume by "play out in real time" you're looking for a sort of day-to-day picture of life in a 5-9-3's shoes?



First, a few key words would probably be observation, inertia, and anxiety. The withdrawn nature of the 5 and 9 types means I struggle to actively engage in life in most cases, which creates a lot of problems. 

The core 5 is obviously the most important thing to relate here, I can see you're typed as a 5w4 but due to me having a quite phobic 6 wing to exacerbate the already problematic anxiety of the 5, odds are good we have some different experiences. Suffice it to say, the phobic 6 wing and dominant sp instinct bring with it a rather poor relationship with the outside world.


the impact of the other types is I suppose what you are really after here, so I'm just going to address that.

One of the most obvious things about any type 9 is the characteristic inertia, the aloofness, the unwillingness to assert and the tendency to minimize chaos in the environment and these qualities are all present to some extent. Type 5s already typically have issues being assertive and inhabiting their body fully (the reason for the line to 8) and the 9 disconnect from the physical self only compounds that problem. 5s and 9s approach needs in similar ways, with 5s minimizing their needs and 9s denying theirs even exist. This creates huge problems when it comes to engaging with the world, as a 593 exists in a state of being too disconnected with their own desires. The presence of the 9 seems to make the 5s nature to withdraw and prepare worse, we seem less likely to feel competent enough to engage with the world than other 5s. There is an especially profound feeling of experiencing life from the outside, always observing, never acting.


3 brings with it a chameleon like nature, but also a tendency for perfectionism and even occasional elitism.

when it comes to sociability in general, I feel that short description rings true

"*Very sentient and tactful, they know how to reach their objectives without causing much fuss around them – they go with the flow and adapt to people and situations in a facile manner." 



**anyways, this probably hasn't answered everything but feel free to ask about some specifics
*


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

DarwinsBastard said:


> Hi, I may be able to help.
> 
> It would help to have some specific questions, otherwise you're probably just going to get a rambling mess, but I'll answer a little.
> 
> ...


Yeah the elitism thing vis-a-vis the three fix definitely shines through occasionally, especially since I'm a social five. It's kind of a dynamic tritype, though. The five and nine mull over the stew and the three tactfully presents it to the public. I definitely have some perfectionism per work assignments, too. I wonder if an 8w on the 9 could balance things out? Also, I have some reservations about seeing any type as static. Like when you talk about nines, you mean nines shackled to their egos. Liberated nines are more life-embracing and self-actualized. Anyway, thanks for the input! Edit: On the plus side, both 5 and 3 are competency-based types.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

@DarwinsBastard Couldn't the 9 and 3 together hint at integration for nine?


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## DarwinsBastard (Apr 27, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Yeah the elitism thing vis-a-vis the three fix definitely shines through occasionally, especially since I'm a social five. It's kind of a dynamic tritype, though. The five and nine mull over the stew and the three tactfully presents it to the public. I definitely have some perfectionism per work assignments, too. I wonder if an 8w on the 9 could balance things out? Also, I have some reservations about seeing any type as static. Like when you talk about nines, you mean nines shackled to their egos. Liberated nines are more life-embracing and self-actualized. Anyway, thanks for the input! Edit: On the plus side, both 5 and 3 are competency-based types.



Yes, social fives tend to have a much more personable and engaging "teacher" disposition, sharing knowledge readily, some can perceive that behaviour in a negative light, even if no ill intent exists. Fives (and threes, and especially threes with a four wing) do tend to try to fill their (probably very small) social circle with people they see as interesting or intelligent, and that too can be perceived as elitism. Unfortunately for myself the self preservation five tends to stray more towards the hermit archetype. haha

I've often wondered what a flipping of my wings would mean, particularly with the 9. The 8 wing would bring a bit more willingness to assert, whereas the 1 wing tends to stray more to the stereotypical 9 passiveness. 

As for the static part, no type is static (hopefully) over time, I spoke only from personal experience in that regard. Both the five and nine integrate to very assertive types (I hear what you are saying about the three fix and nine integration and that possibility has crossed my mind) and there is a lot of potential for growth on my part, others like yourself may have not been quite so self-defeating, but the five and nine can create quite a formidable id-block. I think that shift from withdrawn to assertive is rightly described as dynamic, sometimes we might surprise ourselves. One of the really interesting things about our tritype is the heavy presence of the adaptive triad, meaning we're somewhat harder to nail down in general (it wasn't until reading Naranjo that I was actually satisfied I was a five for instance). I think of all the dominant five tritypes ours has the least rigidly defined character, which is what lends us that ability to navigate life without "causing a fuss" but also can leave us something of a mystery even to ourselves.




Now that we're on this topic though, I would like to hear your personal experiences.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

@_DarwinsBastard_ really nailed it in most aspects; although I'm a 9 core, based on his experience and mine there are similar patterns that emerge in this tritype. I am a 9w1 3w2 5w6 sp/so, with a bit of integration towards 3. I get a sense of extreme detachment from other people (9 and 5 working together, plus the sp instinct as well). I’m content to be a part of the background, but people don’t really notice me (although a part of me, the 3, wants to be noticed on some level. It’s just the 9 and 5 in me that reject that part of me). I consider myself easy going, too, at the expense of being assertive; I’ll often say “yes” to something before really thinking about what I’m being asked to do. I also consider myself goal-oriented, but quietly so; I don’t create a lot of fanfare out of it. 

There’s also this sense that I’m observing others and mentally commenting on their behavior, but I never fully get out of that state of mental inertia to fully interact with them. I am sometimes very aloof, but I can also be warm, smiling, and witty—I flip flop a lot, which confuses the heck out of people who don’t know me well. I definitely give people that "hard to read" vibe. I definitely have a poor relationship with the outside world, even physically, and I get anxious about my performance in the social arena--especially with sx last, there's this sense that I don't engage enough with any aspect of my life really deeply and thoroughly. 5 and 3 are both competence types, so there’s a bit of anxiety for me about that; and when I don’t do as well as I expected in all areas of life, I beat myself up for it (strong 1 wing). Yet I don't want other people criticizing my ideas; in fact, if I get criticized I totally shut down.

With 3 in the tritype, yeah, there’s a bit of concern with image, literally so; I’m very careful with my physical appearance in relation to how other people will see me.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

DarwinsBastard said:


> Yes, social fives tend to have a much more personable and engaging "teacher" disposition, sharing knowledge readily, some can perceive that behaviour in a negative light, even if no ill intent exists. Fives (and threes, and especially threes with a four wing) do tend to try to fill their (probably very small) social circle with people they see as interesting or intelligent, and that too can be perceived as elitism. Unfortunately for myself the self preservation five tends to stray more towards the hermit archetype. haha


Different strokes. I prefer to talk with intelligent people. If that's elitist, I don't care. :tongue:



> I've often wondered what a flipping of my wings would mean, particularly with the 9. The 8 wing would bring a bit more willingness to assert, whereas the 1 wing tends to stray more to the stereotypical 9 passiveness.


Yeah, 9w1 have a smoldering indignation thing going on underneath. 



> As for the static part, no type is static (hopefully) over time, I spoke only from personal experience in that regard. Both the five and nine integrate to very assertive types (I hear what you are saying about the three fix and nine integration and that possibility has crossed my mind) and there is a lot of potential for growth on my part, others like yourself may have not been quite so self-defeating, but the five and nine can create quite a formidable id-block. I think that shift from withdrawn to assertive is rightly described as dynamic, sometimes we might surprise ourselves. One of the really interesting things about our tritype is the heavy presence of the adaptive triad, meaning we're somewhat harder to nail down in general (it wasn't until reading Naranjo that I was actually satisfied I was a five for instance). I think of all the dominant five tritypes ours has the least rigidly defined character, which is what lends us that ability to navigate life without "causing a fuss" but also can leave us something of a mystery even to ourselves.


The assertive types are "id" and the withdrawn types are "ego." All nine types have ego and superego components, so I'm not keen on that whole paradigm. But yeah, the types do have that horizontal dimension vis-a-vis the levels of health. 



> Now that we're on this topic though, I would like to hear your personal experiences.


I would say I'm somewhat braggy about my accomplishments and goals (3 fix). For instance, I plan on going on Jeopardy! in the next five years and I want to enter some golf tournaments. 

The social instinctual variant thing probably feeds into that tendency; and I love to expound metaphysical and political theories to any willing parties. 

The nine comes in like this: over dinner yesterday, a disagreement broke out. I immediately shuffled to nine peacemaker mode. Then, I went back to social five mode: my base state. 

I also prefer really peaceful (9) and dispassionate (5) areas (reading, writing, debate, etc.) in which I can make a buck and perhaps a name for myself (3); I get all three from the copywriting I do.

Fat, dumb and happy. :laughing:


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

@DarwinsBastard I just knew four didn't really apply to me as a heart fix. I'm not that attached to being "unique" and I don't have a boatload of narcissistic wounding like that. In other words, there's no story or fantasy about my self-image a la four; oh, and melancholy only applies to me in a limited way. And I'm definitely not a two, so that leaves three, which appears to fit. If you're wondering why 5w4 then? well, I have even less six than four. I can definitely see vanity being one of the vices in my tritype. I guess there's some perfectionism and workaholism having 3 in my tritype as well.


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## DarwinsBastard (Apr 27, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> Different strokes. I prefer to talk with intelligent people. If that's elitist, I don't care. :tongue:


haha

I do the same, I think the instinctual variant just colours it more

Social 5s would probably be more willing to engage anyone, but in the process, if the person has trouble following along, they may become irritated, so you like to have company that will be receptive and competent

Self preservation 5s tend to have a much more terse quality in this area I think, we're so protective of our resources we may be the type to simply become annoyed with them because we feel they are wasting our time



> Yeah 9w1 have a smoldering indignation thing going on underneath.


That's exactly it, yes



> The assertive types are "id" and the withdrawn types are "ego." All nine types have ego and superego components, so I'm not keen on that whole paradigm. But yeah, the types do have that horizontal dimension vis-a-vis the levels of health.


Actually that is a fair point, one of the reasons I enjoyed Naranjo's work was the mention of the five's particularly strong superego, whereas other authors have divided the types a bit too definitively into the "freudian enneagram" and it seems a bit artificial. For the sake of describing particular imbalances in type however, the five and nine struggle to embrace their own needs, or id impulses and the term was used in that context rather than a black and white categorization.



> I would say I'm somewhat braggy about my accomplishments and goals (3 fix). For instance, I plan on going on Jeopardy! in the next five years and I want to enter some golf tournaments.


As a (formerly) religious jeopardy watcher, lapsed golfer and trivia collector, best of luck.




> The social instinctual variant thing probably feeds into that tendency; and I love to expound metaphysical and political theories to any willing parties.


Yes that would make sense, I generally tend to observe, though I do have my moments of getting swept up in explanation.



> The nine comes in like this: over dinner yesterday, a disagreement broke out. I immediately shuffled to nine peacemaker mode. Then, I went back to social five mode: my base state.


Sounds about right, I find social tension incredibly distracting, my impulse is to resolve issues quickly.



> I also prefer really peaceful (9) and dispassionate (5) areas (reading, writing, debate, etc.) in which I can make a buck and perhaps a name for myself (3); I get all three from the copywriting I do.


I am slowly pursuing a career in science, as I have at least some natural inclination towards it. It satisfies my need to continuously learn (5), it's a peaceful line of work (9), and if I'm good enough at it maybe some day even a way to make a worthwhile contribution to the field(3) I don't keep my hopes high in that regard, but contributing at all will be satisfying.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

DarwinsBastard said:


> haha
> 
> I do the same, I think the instinctual variant just colours it more
> 
> Social 5s would probably be more willing to engage anyone, but in the process, if the person has trouble following along, they may become irritated, so you like to have company that will be receptive and competent


That's _exactly_ how I am. I will give anyone a shot, but if you can't cut it...

I talked to some townie leaving on a train. He killed his best friend accidentally. We talked for five hours. Riveting stuff. He wasn't exactly Harvard material but we had a great time. 



> Self preservation 5s tend to have a much more terse quality in this area I think, we're so protective of our resources we may be the type to simply become annoyed with them because we feel they are wasting our time


Supposedly the self-pres version of basically every type is more introverted. 

I don't even want to apply that to type five. :kitteh:



> Actually that is a fair point, one of the reasons I enjoyed Naranjo's work was the mention of the five's particularly strong superego, whereas other authors have divided the types a bit too definitively into the "freudian enneagram" and it seems a bit artificial. For the sake of describing particular imbalances in type however, the five and nine struggle to embrace their own needs, or id impulses and the term was used in that context rather than a black and white categorization.


Yeah, Freud, although a genius, was undoubtedly a perv and somewhat off his rocker. 



> As a (formerly) religious jeopardy watcher, lapsed golfer and trivia collector, best of luck.


Thanks. I know I could get on Jeopardy! but I have doubts about winning, especially over 2+ days. 

I also used to be a scratch golfer...I haven't played in 10 months so who knows now...



> Yes that would make sense, I generally tend to observe, though I do have my moments of getting swept up in explanation.


Sometimes I can be too much the professor and people are like, dude, I don't care about socialism that much. Or I wince at, and sometimes correct, poor grammar. 



> Sounds about right, I find social tension incredibly distracting, my impulse is to resolve issues quickly.


Yeah, I have Fe too so it's like I can taste it in the air. 



> I am slowly pursuing a career in science, as I have at least some natural inclination towards it. It satisfies my need to continuously learn (5), it's a peaceful line of work (9), and if I'm good enough at it maybe some day even a way to make a worthwhile contribution to the field(3) I don't keep my hopes high in that regard, but contributing at all will be satisfying.


I really weigh the peacefulness of everything I do. If something is fun and _stressful_, sorry, but I can't do it. :crazy:

Just yesterday I got a little envious of a high school janitor. I was like, that job sounds really chill and easy (9 stuff). I mostly just want enough cash and resources to keep to my studies (five stuff).


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## DarwinsBastard (Apr 27, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> I really weigh the peacefulness of everything I do. If something is fun and _stressful_, sorry, but I can't do it. :crazy:
> 
> Just yesterday I got a little envious of a high school janitor. I was like, that job sounds really chill and easy (9 stuff). I mostly just want enough cash and resources to keep to my studies (five stuff).


hahaha

My current job isn't very stimulating 

I drive one of these:










but it lets me have time alone, and the job is incredibly relaxed once you become competent enough

I can load up on podcasts about any topic imaginable and listen to that. I can bring books with me to read during down time: for example; I spent a fair chunk of my shift the other day reading Riso and Hudson's _Personality Types,_ (wouldn't recommend it), and it pays well enough that I can save money for my future studies and some travel I'd like to do.

Not ideal, but it works, for now.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

DarwinsBastard said:


> hahaha
> 
> My current job isn't very stimulating
> 
> ...


There's no shame in it. What sucked about Personality Types though? I actually liked Wisdom of the Enneagram. Have you read that one?


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## DarwinsBastard (Apr 27, 2012)

unctuousbutler said:


> There's no shame in it. What sucked about Personality Types though? I actually liked Wisdom of the Enneagram. Have you read that one?


I haven't read Wisdom of the Enneagram no, perhaps I will try that next. 

The descriptions of the types themselves are fairly standard, but they aren't really worth the read (enneagraminstitute.com's descriptions are all essentially condensed versions from the book). The only parts not actually accessible at that website are brief discussions of theory, (actually the freudian enneagram stuff we mentioned the other day is one of them). The section on theory contain a lot of ad-hoc explanations and didn't really do much for my understanding. The section comparing Jungian typology to the enneagram was almost condescending in tone, which wouldn't have bothered me as much had their analysis actually stood up under scrutiny.

(type correlations for example)

1- Te
2- Fe
3- no correlation
4- Ni 
5- Ti
6- Fi 
7- Se
8- Ne
9- Si


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

DarwinsBastard said:


> I haven't read Wisdom of the Enneagram no, perhaps I will try that next.
> 
> The descriptions of the types themselves are fairly standard, but they aren't really worth the read (enneagraminstitute.com's descriptions are all essentially condensed versions from the book). The only parts not actually accessible at that website are brief discussions of theory, (actually the freudian enneagram stuff we mentioned the other day is one of them). The section on theory contain a lot of ad-hoc explanations and didn't really do much for my understanding. The section comparing Jungian typology to the enneagram was almost condescending in tone, which wouldn't have bothered me as much had their analysis actually stood up under scrutiny.
> 
> ...


Honestly, with a little research and imagination, the chart enclosed in the link is all you need. It's deceptively simple. 

Enneagram of Personality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, Wisdom of the Enneagram actually goes into wings for each type, instinctual variants, personal type testimonials and typical behaviors. I would call it intermediate material - beyond a primer but not quite at maybe Naranjo's depth.

Technically, there's nothing in there you can't find online but it's worth $5 on Amazon. I enjoyed the book's general spiritual commentary more than enneagram-specific stuff. It's all entwined, though. :kitteh:


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