# Let's discuss your experiences that DON'T match up with the Enneagram



## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Any violation, especially from stereotypes made by some high-profile author. Even experiences you feel the Enneagram _should_ address, but doesn't. Don't worry about wasting my time; I currently have the time to read all of this. Feel free to PM me if you're uncomfortable or don't want your type challenged. I won't go there unless you ask me to.

If you're curious about what I consider each type to be, or what the connections between them is like, feel free to do a search for all the threads I've written in this forum. I won't get into a debate with you unless you ask me to, but if you _are_ looking for an argument, you may be disappointed by the many aspects of the theory I won't defend. I'm just collecting information to inform what I write about the Enneagram.

Detailed stories would be much appreciated, even ones you've seen play out for others you know.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I don't seem to fit any of the types. I can find superficial traits I relate to, but none of the motivations and overall patterns really fit. I used to be a lot more 5-like when I was younger...a lot more like everything, really. But now I am nothing. I'm not really striving for anything, or to be a certain way, or to do anything. I don't feel like I have an identity anymore...if I ever even had one in the first place. 

I think I could be a 5, but trying to be intellectual just feels forced and exhausting. I don't want to be incompetent, but I don't really care that much about being competent either. I think I could be a 4--my parents seem to think I'm one, but I don't try to be unique. And I may be more authentic than most, but I don't idealize it in the way 4's seem to. I think I could be a 6, but I can never seem to find enough I relate to. And then I think maybe I'm a 9, but after reading Naranjo, I think my connection to 9 seems the most superficial of all.

So right now I don't seem to be any type. Any enneagram-related motivations I have are fleeting, and ultimately I return to this state of being nothing, empty, identity-less. I wonder if I will always be this way...

I wonder if I will feel differently about my identity soon afterward and regret posting this.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

Personally, although I can relate to the 9s Holy Idea of love, I don't particularly relate to their need to "merge" with other people--maybe because I've got inferior Fe in MBTI? In many other respects, though, I do think I'm a 9--unsure of the wing but on my better days a 1. The problem I had with tying down my type is that I relate to a number of different types--I don't think I really know my own identity or value system fully, so I try to look outwardly for them--another thing that could be connected to inferior Fe, I guess. I don't think everyone will relate to their type completely, but like anything it can be a good jumping off place for understanding oneself better.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

A few things. These are really more pointed questions rather than me going into my personal experiences, no need to answer them the way they are set out but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

If the enneagram is about neurosis, why does it do a poor job at explaining average health levels? The only author I know of that has incorporated health levels was R/H whose works im naturally skeptical about, he goes into health levels but he relates those to his inaccurate descriptions so consider these sources unreliable. 

Is there anything to suggest that connection points exist in relation to our other fixes? And what do you think when the enneagram becomes multi-directional due to 6 possible directions per tritype. Do you think its more beneficial or more confusing?


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## Ryosuke93 (Feb 29, 2012)

A lot of the talk about going in arrows towards the direction of health and the direction of stress, sometimes seem to be the opposite for me as a four. I sometimes find myself being a very critical, bossy, controlling 1 (towards others, but especially myself) when unhealthy, when very stressed.

This might be further exacerbated because I am an enfj, though. A judger by nature...however, not as strongly judging as some other enfjs might be. Certain tests show my extraversion and judging functions are at the borderline and I think it is due to being a four.

Anyways, I find that when I move towards a 1, I am less happier, I feel more restricted. Even before learning about enneagram, I think my 1-ish nature even led me to having an eating disorder when I was a teen because of how critical I became towards myself. However, when I feel healthy, I sometimes think that I am acting like a healthy 2... nurturing, giving, kind to others, and it helps fuel my compassionate side.

I also think that even though I am a 4 wing, that there really is a 3 wing in me as well, just not so pronounced. I feel the effects of 3 in me, especially when I was younger. I had more drive, was more openly competitive. I feel like I have lost that spark as I got older as my more contemplative, observer 5 side came into play. However, I am now wondering if it is possible to draw strength from my 3 wing again...to build up that wing in order to pursue what I want. I haven't read much about it in any enneagram stuff, but I was wondering if it is possible to grow as a person by also building up the other wing?

Then I read some random page on the internet that talked about how there is a hidden path of growth in the enneagram which involves shifting each type to the number 9 spot in order to follow a triangular (or clockwise) pattern of growth. It says a 9 really grows by moving towards a healthy 3, then to a healthy 6. It's a odd teaching, but I found it intriguing. It says that this is the reason why many 4's cannot move to a healthy 1 so easily, because that would be growing in a counter-clockwise fashion, which the author thinks isn't likely for any of the types. So if 4 is moved to the 9 position, then that means I will move towards 7, then finally to a 1, in a clock-wise fashion. They said this is how 4's can be helped to move out of a depressive episode, to start taking on the traits of a healthy 7. To look forward to new experiences, to appreciate what is in the moment, to become resilient by embracing the cheerful moments of life. I find it is true for me. I find that my past pain is able to dissipate much faster when I am able to replace it with more positive experiences...rather than trying to be a 1, who only further fuels the pain by saying "well, this is what you deserve because you made that mistake."

Although, I did take a test that said I had 7 in my tri-type, but now I wonder if it really is just this "hidden path" that is at work. Plus, I watched a video that says some 7's experience moving to a 4 position where they become more touched by their own and others emotions. This can be explained by moving the 7 to the 9 position, on the top of the enneagram and then watching the arrows move to 1, then to a 4.

Anyways, I hope that wasn't confusing...but this is where I feel like I want more information about the enneagram, in terms of how we can grow using it and how the lines that connects us REALLY play in our lives.


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## Bluity (Nov 12, 2012)

I feel like I integrate to both Seven and Eight. When in the company of others, I can be assertive, challenging, decisive, and have no problems taking charge. But when I'm by myself or with trusted others, I can be playful, goofy, generous, and fun-loving. When I disintegrate I don't see many Seven traits, I just become more and more Fiveish, only the introversion and over-thinking gets amped up to eleven.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

This is a great thread, and when I am less preoccupied, I'll come back with more thoughts. Violations, if I can term it that way, would be the horribly inadequate coverage Type 6 receives under the RH 'school'. Another violation, and this is a most serious violation, is the Fauvres' phototyping garbage. Every time I read their baloney, my brain dies a little. 


As for something the Enneagram doesn't really address about my own patterns is that I seem to integrate/ grow towards 2, though I am a 3w4. Upon growth, I become more magnanimous, warmer, open-hearted and tolerant. I don't have 2 in my tritype, assuming an 8 fix over a 1w2 fix, but I have a connection to healthy 2 and unhealthy 9. The connection I have with 6 overlaps with 1 and 8 (justice, equality, the ability to counter-'authority' when it gets in my way, fairness---as in getting my fair share) and with SP. I am Sp first, with a vivid history of war, discrimination and deprivation. 

As for _challenging_ type , I like that shit. Feel free to bring up any questions/concerns about my typing. It's all good. You're totally allowed to call me an ISFP 6w7-9w1-2w1 So/Sp. I will not cry 'foul' and scream to the pits of hell about being 'accused' of 'mistyping'. :laughing:


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## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

I dont relate to the type 8 who is for lack of a better term a mindless brute, I'm quiet strategic. I also don't relate to constantly being angry and trying to attack others, sure I feel anger at others and I experience a lot of 8 traits, but there are some I don't relate to at all like being a sociopath.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Silveresque said:


> So right now I don't seem to be any type. Any enneagram-related motivations I have are fleeting, and ultimately I return to this state of being nothing, empty, identity-less. I wonder if I will always be this way...
> 
> I wonder if I will feel differently about my identity soon afterward and regret posting this.


Does it bother you that you seem empty and identity-less? I'm wondering if maybe you're mostly at peace, but just find it a bit odd that none of the types resonate with you.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

If anything the more I learn and understand about myself and the type system, the more I realize how stereotype I am. So opposite experiences, much?


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

mushr00m said:


> A few things. These are really more pointed questions rather than me going into my personal experiences, no need to answer them the way they are set out but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
> 
> If the enneagram is about neurosis, why does it do a poor job at explaining average health levels? The only author I know of that has incorporated health levels was R/H whose works im naturally skeptical about, he goes into health levels but he relates those to his inaccurate descriptions so consider these sources unreliable.


My thoughts...

The more I read about the Enneagram, the more I think R&H have done a _decent_ (though not great) job with showing how a person may deteriorate down the levels. The whole 9 levels thing feels a bit cookie-cutter though; I would think 3 general levels would make more sense. Here's the darkness, here's the light, and here's about average.

It also seems to me that the pathological/neurotic part of a person remains relatively the same as they get healthier, just that it's more controlled and is a smaller part of how they generally act. And I echo the idea here that your type won't ever fully explain or chart your problems, with the caveat that it gets clearer and clearer what your problem is as you get unhealthier and unhealthier. It's like that saying that the path to hell seems wide, but gets narrower and narrower as you descend, but the path to God begins narrow but becomes as wide as God himself. The better you get, the harder it is to know which way is better.

Maybe we should be incorporating from sources that do explain neurosis of average levels of health? I wonder what, outside the Enneagram of course, has looked at this.



mushr00m said:


> Is there anything to suggest that connection points exist in relation to our other fixes? And what do you think when the enneagram becomes multi-directional due to 6 possible directions per tritype. Do you think its more beneficial or more confusing?


I would be far more interested in how people's three fixations interact with one another than how they operate on their own. If I've got three fixations within me, and they're all doing their own thing, yet I consider myself to be one unified person, I feel like there's a bit of a discrepancy there. Maybe I'm actually three people at once? Three entities all either cooperating or competing depending on how neurotic I am?

I think we'd need a clearer picture of the gestalt before we can attribute this movement to that fixation and so forth. What's it look like for a 692 to integrate? Does it look different than a 693? Can we see that two 692s reliably integrate in a way distinct from a 693? I'm guessing the path is fuzzy enough that the distinction breaks down beyond the core type.

The more I read about connection points, the more I find them to be subtle and complicated, so I would think it's more confusing. Would be very interested if I heard someone claim that watching their integration on a minor fixation helped them in some way.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

IluvHSJ said:


> Anyways, I hope that wasn't confusing...but this is where I feel like I want more information about the enneagram, in terms of how we can grow using it and how the lines that connects us REALLY play in our lives.


Well, imo the 9-3-6 triangle I feel like is the crowning pattern of deterioration and integration. Like, regardless of what type you are, you can learn from that pattern. The psychological deadness at 9 (acedia) deprives the individual of a basis from which to act (loss of inner guidance), leading to fear; fear compels us to act from a false sense of self (attachment to self-image), causing vanity; vanity leads us to repress our true nature (fabricated boundaries of the self), leading us back to the psychological deadness of acedia, and on it goes.

In the other direction there is a willful decision to see yourself as you really are, have the courage to be yourself, and... hmm, I don't really know. It sounds like it should be that when you have the courage to be yourself you would gradually have less trouble with knowing how to act, but I'm really not sure where the solution to the loss of inner guidance really comes from. In my own experience I find it just requires holding onto the pain in my experience just enough that I don't forget what I'm about, but I highly doubt 4s need someone telling them to hold onto their pain.

There's a bit of nuance to the theories about the inner lines of change, and now it seems even R&H is onboard with the inner lines being about stress/security more than going up or down in health, but even that doesn't explain why you'd become more 1ish under stress.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Great topic. I look forward to more people participating.

I'll respond from type 5. I've already mentioned this avarice/greed label in another thread. It's really more about holding back or hoarding (not accumulation as avarice and greed seem to imply). I think Tom Condon redefines it that way as well.

The big one though is the desire for privacy. Although there's often a pulling back to process things or observe or not be overwhelmed, I hear people describe their desire for privacy as a movement to 5. Any type can have a desire for privacy or alone time. It's not the sole domain of type 5.

Another one is this thing about type 5 not feeling. I originally identified most with type 4 because my feelings were so intense when I was younger (INFP as well which later shifted to INTP). It's not that type 5 doesn't feel. I think it's more that they can more easilty detach from and analyze feelings than other types. But there can still be great feelings (especially for the sx subtype I think). It's just that the feelings are often not shared. I've found people seemed put off when I did share them or they would use them against me (felt kind of like the 8 description of not wanting to expose vulnerability sometimes).


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## Kelvin (May 30, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> I don't seem to fit any of the types. I can find superficial traits I relate to, but none of the motivations and overall patterns really fit. I used to be a lot more 5-like when I was younger...a lot more like everything, really. But now I am nothing. I'm not really striving for anything, or to be a certain way, or to do anything. I don't feel like I have an identity anymore...if I ever even had one in the first place.
> 
> I think I could be a 5, but trying to be intellectual just feels forced and exhausting. I don't want to be incompetent, but I don't really care that much about being competent either. I think I could be a 4--my parents seem to think I'm one, but I don't try to be unique. And I may be more authentic than most, but I don't idealize it in the way 4's seem to. I think I could be a 6, but I can never seem to find enough I relate to. *And then I think maybe I'm a 9, but after reading Naranjo, I think my connection to 9 seems the most superficial of all.*
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me asking, what specific parts of the connection you have with 9 do you feel are superficial? 



Ellis Bell said:


> Personally, although I can relate to the 9s Holy Idea of love, I don't particularly relate to their need to "merge" with other people--maybe because I've got inferior Fe in MBTI? In many other respects, though, I do think I'm a 9--unsure of the wing but on my better days a 1. *The problem I had with tying down my type is that I relate to a number of different types--I don't think I really know my own identity or value system fully, so I try to look outwardly for them--another thing that could be connected to inferior Fe, I guess. I don't think everyone will relate to their type completely, but like anything it can be a good jumping off place for understanding oneself better.*


This is exactly how I felt when I was still mistyped at 5. The problem was that I do not have a good understand of my own value system until much later. I did not have a good understanding of my own identity, and for the most part, I still feel like identity is something that's flexible and largely syncretic. I looked outwardly for values that I wanted to embody within my own psyche and took a very eclectic approach towards life - to which I have associated with a poorly developed Fi. I saw parts of myself in each of the different type. The connection was strangely off though, as if it was "partly me" but not "really me".

I did not particularly felt like I had to "merge" with other people per se, not on an emotional or personal level. But in hindsight, I did feel like the act of looking outwardly for value system was my attempt to "merge". Perhaps on a more philosophical level? 

My question for you would be (if you don't mind answering): 
How do you think the "merging" tendencies of 9 manifests? In what ways and to what extent would you say the interaction of MBTI functions modifies and colour the experience of this merging tendency?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Dying Acedia said:


> Does it bother you that you seem empty and identity-less? I'm wondering if maybe you're mostly at peace, but just find it a bit odd that none of the types resonate with you.


Not all the time, I'm used to it. It only bothers me when I start overthinking things and dwelling on it too much. I'm not exactly bothered because I feel I have no identity, but because I don't understand why I'm like this. 



Kelvatoré said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what specific parts of the connection you have with 9 do you feel are superficial?


I'm like a 9 because I'm gentle and easy to get along with, as well as empty and apathetic. However, I'm not like this for the same reasons as type 9. I highly doubt I've fallen asleep to myself for the sake of being in harmony with others and my environment. I'm not afraid of conflict. I actually find I enjoy conflict. I like the drama and intensity, and I also like constructing a logical argument. I don't go around starting conflicts, and I don't usually enter conflicts I feel are pointless, but I'm not exactly conflict-averse either. And I certainly have no problem saying 'no' to people. I have no problem asserting my boundaries in general.

Furthermore, Naranjo has said the ordinariness of the 9 comes from "the giving up of the concern to excel and shine". But I want those things, and it's shown in my actions. I've been described as a highly motivated self-starter who excels at whatever I'm passionate about. And that's been true throughout most of my life. For a while, I'd forgotten about that part of me.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Boss said:


> This is a great thread, and when I am less preoccupied, I'll come back with more thoughts. Violations, if I can term it that way, would be the horribly inadequate coverage Type 6 receives under the RH 'school'.


Forgot to point this out. This is a really good point. You've already seen this, but speaking to people generally...

For anyone who wants to know what the 6 is really like, I'd encourage them to read the description by ocean-moonshine. Most 6s I've heard from think its really good. Here it is: http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/73144-enneagram-type-6-proper-description.html

Also, if you aren't familiar with the Prussian 6, I've done a write-up of the 6's variegated manifestations here: http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-forum-loyalist/139796-core-6-why-cp6-p6-prussian-6-all-6-a.html



> As for something the Enneagram doesn't really address about my own patterns is that I seem to integrate/ grow towards 2, though I am a 3w4. Upon growth, I become more magnanimous, warmer, open-hearted and tolerant. I don't have 2 in my tritype, assuming an 8 fix over a 1w2 fix, but I have a connection to healthy 2 and unhealthy 9. The connection I have with 6 overlaps with 1 and 8 (justice, equality, the ability to counter-'authority' when it gets in my way, fairness---as in getting my fair share) and with SP. I am Sp first, with a vivid history of war, discrimination and deprivation.


If you haven't read about R&H's new viewpoint about the lines being more about stress and security, I'd encourage you to read our thread for it here: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/144223-arrows-levels.html

That said, this is part of a larger general trend I've been seeing. I'd encourage everyone to put integration along the lines to the wayside if it doesn't seem to fit, as it's easily the most contested thing I've seen lately.


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## Choice (May 19, 2012)

7 disintegration levels of R&H describe Hyperactive, hysterical meltdowns of a very outgoing nature in the later stages that sound (like more stimulation and therefore) way more fun than my mere tendency to become increasingly withdrawn and sullen. Perhaps it's just the exaggerated description?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@Dying Acedia

I'll check that out. Thanks a ton. And yes, here's another word of appreciation for the great discussions you start here. Please keep it up.


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## Angeni (Jun 1, 2012)

My experience isn't necessarily due to a flaw in the theory, but more a general frustration with Type 6. People are always arguing that just because you have an anxiety disorder it doesn't mean you're a six. And that can be true, but I find that it's very difficult to separate what's happening just because of the disorder and what's happening because of your basic nature. I always end up a confused mess after going in circles trying to separate the two. Then sometimes I wonder if GAD is part of my basic nature. It definitely seems more likely to be than social anxiety, which is often a learned behavior, because it has a strong(er) genetic component.

I typically think of myself as calm, able to talk other people down out of their anxieties, but maybe this is just a way that I've adapted to deal with my stress. So maybe I'm a 9? But reading detailed descriptions I can identify more with 6. So then I think the whole pursuit of trying to separate the two (and even questioning if it's possible) is a waste of time.

That turned more into a personal evaluation than I meant for it to, but my main point is the difficulties that face people with a disorder of almost any kind.


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## frenchie (Jul 7, 2011)

I enjoy conflict and taking calculated risks. 

I also am far from humble bordering on the edge of arrogant. Most 9s (and some 9w1s) frustrate me because I see a lot of my own faults that I had to over come in them. Passivity, feeling weak, and feeling like I am being controlled by my environment makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Seeing that in other people annoys me to no end. 
@Angeni, I agree with you. I thought I was a 6 for a long time but I ended up realizing that I am just a horribly disintegrated 9. The w8 explains my penchant for aggression. At one point in time though, I really did _think_ like an 8. I wish that attitude was fostered in me at a young age.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Angeni said:


> My experience isn't necessarily due to a flaw in the theory, but more a general frustration with Type 6. People are always arguing that just because you have an anxiety disorder it doesn't mean you're a six. And that can be true, but I find that it's very difficult to separate what's happening just because of the disorder and what's happening because of your basic nature. I always end up a confused mess after going in circles trying to separate the two. Then sometimes I wonder if GAD is part of my basic nature. It definitely seems more likely to be than social anxiety, which is often a learned behavior, because it has a strong(er) genetic component.


I've often had to wonder how people intend to really draw the line for this. I don't know enough about GAD to talk about it, but I can say that "the seesaw of certainty vs doubt" is probably the best way I've heard to boil down all that the 6 is.

Part of the tendency that annoys me in, well all typology really, is the trend to consider smaller and smaller chunks of people. I think the Enneagram does a pretty good job overall of avoiding that, for instance when you have a moment and realize that "lust" or acedia or whatever passion you have permeates nearly your entire reality, though the initial phase of parsing out what that is (as necessary as it might be) sometimes seems to become the perpetual theme.

Which is all part of a larger theme of people who gravitate towards the abstract to become increasingly abstract (and not returning to the concrete they sought to explain), but I digress.




frenchie said:


> I enjoy conflict and taking calculated risks.
> 
> I also am far from humble bordering on the edge of arrogant. Most 9s (and some 9w1s) frustrate me because I see a lot of my own faults that I had to over come in them. Passivity, feeling weak, and feeling like I am being controlled by my environment makes me feel very uncomfortable.
> 
> Seeing that in other people annoys me to no end.


Yeah, there's a lot of stereotypes that annoy me about the 9, but _especially_ about conflict-avoidance. I've tried to do it justice here: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...e-9-not-conflict-avoidance-but-indolence.html

It's still something people don't get though. Probably because there just aren't any Type 9 authors to correct these misconceptions.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

@Dying Acedia I'm having a similar problem to @Silveresque in that none of the types seem to fit. I can find plenty of things about myself that point strongly to one type or another, but each one has some central aspect I don't relate to; not just stereotypes, but motivations, fears and defence mechanisms. I was going to write a long post analysing all the reasons why I think I can't be each of the types I relate most strongly to, but I think I've got all I can out of the enneagram and I don't see the point anymore in agonising over which number I am; I've learned many things about my fears and insecurities, and that's more important than having a number. Instead, I want to ask about a broader issue: how do we know that the enneagram applies to everyone? How would we find that out? If after years of study someone doesn't know their type, an enneagram theorist might say that person isn't self-aware enough, or doesn't want to admit to being the type they are... but couldn't it be that there isn't a type that fits them? If any time someone doesn't seem to fit into the system the enneagram teachers say it's because they aren't self-aware enough or they're in denial, then the enneagram is a theory that can never be wrong; there isn't a mechanism for checking it against reality. I still think the enneagram contains deep truths about human nature, but I'm having serious doubts about how well it works as a typology. If the types are tendencies that exist within all of us (and I think they are) then I think it's quite possible to convince yourself you are a particular type by tuning into the part of your mind that actually is that type. Maybe I just have a particularly vivid imagination, but I feel like I can tune into types like that. If I imagine myself as a 1 I can feel myself tense up. If I tell myself I'm a 6 I start to feel a bit nervous and insecure. If I imagine being a 4 I feel like I gain a kind of emotional depth. If I imagine myself as a 5 I seem to become more detached and intellectual. All of those are strong elements in my personality. These days I see the nine points of the enneagram as tendencies that exist within human nature, rather than nine distinct personality types; the idea that the personality becomes "fixated" at one point and remains there for life doesn't seem to work in reality.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Octavarium said:


> Instead, I want to ask about a broader issue: how do we know that the enneagram applies to everyone?


I have been wondering that too. Are 9 types really enough to sum up everyone's motivations? At least they added two sins so we didn't have just 7 to choose from, I suppose. 

(Still, I do find the Enneagram pretty interesting.)


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Octavarium said:


> I was going to write a long post analysing all the reasons why I think I can't be each of the types I relate most strongly to, but I think I've got all I can out of the enneagram and I don't see the point anymore in agonising over which number I am; I've learned many things about my fears and insecurities, and that's more important than having a number. Instead, I want to ask about a broader issue: how do we know that the enneagram applies to everyone? How would we find that out? If after years of study someone doesn't know their type, an enneagram theorist might say that person isn't self-aware enough, or doesn't want to admit to being the type they are... but couldn't it be that there isn't a type that fits them?


About three years ago, I started a long bout of self-exploration on a personality forum. I had been familiar before that with MBTI, but it was then that I began my study of the Enneagram (and Socionics too). I did a lot of study of the theory, but also a lot of study of myself, through self-observation. Yet after a year of studying and agonizing over my types, I finally saw I had reached an impasse. I had done all I could to make use of the theories, but I felt my understanding of myself went far beyond them. So in May of 2011, I put up in my user title "Graduated from Typology: May 2011" and never posted on that forum again.

I would encourage you to step away from the Enneagram and write your own personality profile, an individual elaboration, complete with all the various things you've learned from your studies. The Enneagram originated with Gurdjieff, and it should be noted that Gurdjieff never connected a set of personalities to it. From his perspective, what we are looking at are chief features which, once known, empower people to really start to take control of and master their entire self. So far, it seems nearly everyone's chief feature is generally encompassed by one of nine types. But if yours isn't written down in the books, perhaps it's best you seek it elsewhere. What is the value of working with a theory that doesn't give any insight into yourself? 

You're asking a question that would require quite the explanation, as it's about the creation of models that aim to explain an exorbitant amount of human nature. You give me a person's life story, and I'll show you where it fits on the map. You tell me we need a new category, and I'll listen to your explanations for as to why. Could it be that someone doesn't fit any type? It's possible, I guess. But though you've asked me to answer your questions, you've given me nothing to work with.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Dying Acedia said:


> About three years ago, I started a long bout of self-exploration on a personality forum. I had been familiar before that with MBTI, but it was then that I began my study of the Enneagram (and Socionics too). I did a lot of study of the theory, but also a lot of study of myself, through self-observation. Yet after a year of studying and agonizing over my types, I finally saw I had reached an impasse. I had done all I could to make use of the theories, but I felt my understanding of myself went far beyond them. So in May of 2011, I put up in my user title "Graduated from Typology: May 2011" and never posted on that forum again.
> 
> I would encourage you to step away from the Enneagram and write your own personality profile, an individual elaboration, complete with all the various things you've learned from your studies. The Enneagram originated with Gurdjieff, and it should be noted that Gurdjieff never connected a set of personalities to it. From his perspective, what we are looking at are chief features which, once known, empower people to really start to take control of and master their entire self. So far, it seems nearly everyone's chief feature is generally encompassed by one of nine types. But if yours isn't written down in the books, perhaps it's best you seek it elsewhere. What is the value of working with a theory that doesn't give any insight into yourself?
> 
> You're asking a question that would require quite the explanation, as it's about the creation of models that aim to explain an exorbitant amount of human nature. You give me a person's life story, and I'll show you where it fits on the map. You tell me we need a new category, and I'll listen to your explanations for as to why. Could it be that someone doesn't fit any type? It's possible, I guess. But though you've asked me to answer your questions, you've given me nothing to work with.


Why those nine chief features, and why does a personality have to be built around only one of them? The enneagram has many things to say that are accurate for me, from several different types. I've gained insight from working with it, I have plenty of traits that are associated with the types, but the enneagram feels like a black hole I keep getting sucked into rather than a helpful tool. I don't think it's doing me much good forcing myself into one of the nine boxes, so at the moment I'm just exploring the various personality theories that are out there, taking the interesting/useful bits and leaving the rest, and if I don't fit exactly into a typology, well it's more important that I'm learning and growing than that I have a label.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Octavarium said:


> Why those nine chief features, and why does a personality have to be built around only one of them? The enneagram has many things to say that are accurate for me, from several different types. I've gained insight from working with it, I have plenty of traits that are associated with the types, but the enneagram feels like a black hole I keep getting sucked into rather than a helpful tool. I don't think it's doing me much good forcing myself into one of the nine boxes, so at the moment I'm just exploring the various personality theories that are out there, taking the interesting/useful bits and leaving the rest, and if I don't fit exactly into a typology, well it's more important that I'm learning and growing than that I have a label.


Everyone has all 9 types to varying degrees, so yes, you can learn and grow looking at any of the types. The type you call yourself is just your dominant type, the one that affects you the most. And it's easy to see the types as "boxes", but that's not really what they are. Don't view type as something to conform to. Don't expect any of it to be true about you. The enneagram is not meant to tell you who you are, you're supposed to find that out yourself, and if who you are fits one of the types, then great. If not, then that's okay too. Either way, you'll learn a lot about yourself, and that's what's important. 

I've been guilty of getting sucked into the enneagram as well, and I sometimes wonder what I would be like if I never learned about the enneagram. Sometimes I wonder if I would be more myself without it. But then I remember that it's the enneagram that lead me to introspect deeply and analyze my motivations, and I've gained a lot of self-awareness because of it. Going typeless seems to be helping me as well, because it helps to eliminate expectations and makes it easier to examine myself from other perspectives.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Awesome thread.. Here are a few things that don't really fit in with core 4:

*1.* I'm not outwardly dramatic. Deep down, I'm extremely emotional and tragic, but I will never show it. I definitely want someone to see a glimpse of it, but that's just it, really. More and I'll feel exposed, and self-conscious. I'll want to push them away.

*2. *I'm not _always _self-conscious. I love speaking up in class lectures, starting debates, having a presence.. I don't necessarily fit into the wallflower stereotype, it just depends on the setting. You will find me go from being the most outspoken person in a comfortable setting for me, to the loner in a party.

*3.* I don't feel like I integrate into 1? If that pattern is there, I don't see it. I really don't understand anyway how 4 can go into 1 when healthy anyway, because the only traits I relate to in type 1 are the ones associated with lower levels of health: being critical of yourself and others, being overly idealistic, high expectations (granted, all of those are 4ish as well). 

*4.* Despite being a frustration type, I'm not ALWAYS dissatisfied with my reality. I can be very happy and content as well on a daily basis. Certain situations will trigger envy and melancholy in me, but I don't walk around constantly bemoaning the state of my existence.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Octavarium said:


> Why those nine chief features, and why does a personality have to be built around only one of them? The enneagram has many things to say that are accurate for me, from several different types. I've gained insight from working with it, I have plenty of traits that are associated with the types, but the enneagram feels like a black hole I keep getting sucked into rather than a helpful tool. I don't think it's doing me much good forcing myself into one of the nine boxes, so at the moment I'm just exploring the various personality theories that are out there, taking the interesting/useful bits and leaving the rest, and if I don't fit exactly into a typology, well it's more important that I'm learning and growing than that I have a label.


Yeah, that's the feeling I'm getting from you, which is why I'm serious when I say you'd probably best be served looking elsewhere. But to answer your question, Ichazo came up with the Enneagram of Personality, five years after Gurdjieff died. His way of viewing it, though he said we all have three fixations, was more like how you're talking about it (wikipedia has him saying "we have to awaken all the nine positions"). But beyond what's already become mainstream, Ichazo's view is hard to find: he's really secretive about his work. Guess people who ran with it after that just thought it was a good idea.

Personally, I've only really returned to taking the Enneagram seriously because I've come to view my own type as an Omega type. Whereas every type has the 9's psychological deadness (acedia) in the background, their own fixation in the foreground, I see every other type's problem in the background. For me, it just so happens that the more I write about the Enneagram, the more obvious it is that I can relate most strongly to 9, while every other type is a bit of a stretch. Moreover, any attempts to truly embody any other type frustrates me, because their dynamic is unrelated to my core. No reason to act like a Perfectionist if you don't really care about perfection.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, lets see... I've considered type 4 for myself, and I am an artist (I draw, to be more specific), but I've never thought about my art as necessarily being self-expressive. I like to draw fanart, which I _guess _could be called self-expressive in a way since I draw my obsessions, but you know.  If I feel sad I don't want to draw anything to express my sadness, I just lose motivation to do art.

I'm also not that fascinated by death. I mean, Death from Discworld is adorable, but I've never felt the slightest bit suicidal that I can remember. I've even been in a near-death experience and I was pretty determined _not _to die. I like living even if feels pointless and uncomfortable at times.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Octavarium said:


> I was going to write a long post analysing all the reasons why I think I can't be each of the types I relate most strongly to, but I think I've got all I can out of the enneagram and I don't see the point anymore in agonising over which number I am; I've learned many things about my fears and insecurities, and that's more important than having a number.


That's a shame because I think there are two stages to the Enneagram. The first is discovering your primary type and seeing how the negatives of that type keep you stuck. The second is finding some freedom from your primary type so you can begin exploring the positives to be found in all nine types. Sounds like you'd be better of just skipping that first stage and go right to the second one (over time you may hit upon something that keeps you stuck and work on the first stage if you need to).



Octavarium said:


> Instead, I want to ask about a broader issue: how do we know that the enneagram applies to everyone? How would we find that out? If after years of study someone doesn't know their type, an enneagram theorist might say that person isn't self-aware enough, or doesn't want to admit to being the type they are... but couldn't it be that there isn't a type that fits them?


I think there are two problems: 1) we're really not a single type, it's just that our primary type tends to dominate our lives and get in the way and 2) there are gaps in the enneagram types (look at all the variants that get thrown in the mix to explain why people of the same type are different - wings, inner line movements, levels of development, tritype, subtype, stacking, etc.). 
The most noticeable gaps are in types 3, 6, and 9. There's too much variance in those types. Why is it that type 6 specifically has the phobic and counter-phobic types? Or why is there an intellectual variant of type 9? I remember hearing David Burke in an audio interview where he stated that he only believes types 3, 6, and 9 have wings because they have so much more variance than the other types (he's literally conducted hundreds of type panel interviews in Australia and he types himself as a 6). Hurley and Dobson wrote a book some time ago where she (Kathleen Hurley) proposed that, unlike the other types, there are two variations of 3, 6, and 9 (she types herself as a 3). I think anyone that best fits the 3, 6, or 9 may just have a hard time typing themselves because different authors place emphasis on a particular variation (you won't identify with the type if you're a different variation of the type) or intermix the variations as if they're a single type (there will be a lot of characteristics you won't identify with because the author is in essence bunching more than one type into the same description). One way to sort out the variants within the current Enneagram system is to simply see the two wings of the 3, 6, and 9 as essentially different types (9w8, 9w1, 3w2, 3w4, 6w5, 6w7). So for instance, instead of wondering if you're a type 9, you'd wonder if you're a 9w8 (merging 9) or 9w1 (intellectual 9).


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Dying Acedia said:


> But to answer your question, Ichazo came up with the Enneagram of Personality, five years after Gurdjieff died. His way of viewing it, though he said we all have three fixations, was more like how you're talking about it (wikipedia has him saying "we have to awaken all the nine positions"). But beyond what's already become mainstream, Ichazo's view is hard to find: he's really secretive about his work. Guess people who ran with it after that just thought it was a good idea.


That lends some support to a theory I've been pondering: that maybe it would be more useful, and more true to the reality of human nature, to use trifix/tritype rather than insisting that everyone must have one core type. I'm not saying there needs to be a tenth category to account for me; I just see no reason to think that every person's central issues can be explained by one core type. From my observations of people trying to type themselves on the forum, I think it's entirely possible that some people are equal parts two or three types (or if not exactly equal parts, they have significant enough traits from their secondary types that their issues and temperament would be better explained by a theory of multiple fixations). It makes me wonder: if Ichazo said we all have three fixations, who decided that it was core/dominant type that's important? I'm actually not keen on the word "fixation"; I'm using it here because it's the word most people are familiar with, and saying that people have more than one "personality type" makes no sense. So I think the enneagram community needs to come up with a new word to describe what the nine points actually are, and then to critically examine the claim that we are all primarily one of those points. So that's why I'm not worrying too much about which type I am; I might come back to finding my type someday, but at the moment the prospect of not having a type label feels incredibly liberating. I've spent too much time trying to force myself into a type and then feeling dishonest when I notice that there are major contradictions between my personality and the type I say I am. I guess I've been overly focused on having the correct label at the expense of truly examining my issues, regardless of whether they belong to a type; in other words, as I've analysed myself, I've spent too much time thinking "what number does this belong to?" instead of thinking "How can I work on this weakness/use this strength to my advantage?" So I'm sticking around on PerC, I'm still exploring typology, but I'm trying not to get too worked up about having a label that fits me perfectly; as I've already said, just taking what's useful and leaving the rest.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Octavarium said:


> That lends some support to a theory I've been pondering: that maybe it would be more useful, and more true to the reality of human nature, to use trifix/tritype rather than insisting that everyone must have one core type. I'm not saying there needs to be a tenth category to account for me; I just see no reason to think that every person's central issues can be explained by one core type. From my observations of people trying to type themselves on the forum, I think it's entirely possible that some people are equal parts two or three types (or if not exactly equal parts, they have significant enough traits from their secondary types that their issues and temperament would be better explained by a theory of multiple fixations). It makes me wonder: if Ichazo said we all have three fixations, who decided that it was core/dominant type that's important?



Like with a lot of these systems, probably a person who found himself to be that way. 



> I'm actually not keen on the word "fixation"; I'm using it here because it's the word most people are familiar with, and saying that people have more than one "personality type" makes no sense. So I think the enneagram community needs to come up with a new word to describe what the nine points actually are, and then to critically examine the claim that we are all primarily one of those points. So that's why I'm not worrying too much about which type I am; I might come back to finding my type someday, but at the moment the prospect of not having a type label feels incredibly liberating. I've spent too much time trying to force myself into a type and then feeling dishonest when I notice that there are major contradictions between my personality and the type I say I am. I guess I've been overly focused on having the correct label at the expense of truly examining my issues, regardless of whether they belong to a type; in other words, as I've analysed myself, I've spent too much time thinking "what number does this belong to?" instead of thinking "How can I work on this weakness/use this strength to my advantage?" So I'm sticking around on PerC, I'm still exploring typology, but I'm trying not to get too worked up about having a label that fits me perfectly; as I've already said, just taking what's useful and leaving the rest.


Well, many people are going to posit some system based on what they see in themselves and a limited population, rather than one that tries to encompass everyone's psychological pattern, because encompassing everyone is difficult to do. So I guess the best thing you can do is get what you can from it.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

This is a great thread topic.

I am a core 8. It was pretty obvious from day one in some ways, but it took me a really long time to figure out my type, and I mistyped twice. Here's some of the reasons why:

- I have only been in a handful of physical fights, none of which I have initiated.
- I'm not a con artist, and never was.
- I don't feel the need to control other people, though I certainly would not let them control me, and never have let anyone control me, practically since I was a toddler =p
- I don't "bulldoze" but rather state what I'm intending to do, and do it, and don't let anyone stand in my way. I feel no need to bulldoze unless there's no other choice.
- I don't flaunt my power and strength, at least consciously... unless wearing leather jackets and having a rockstarish clothing style (or any clothing style I damn well please, for that matter) counts as flaunting.
- When I feel rejected by a love interest, I gain power by withdrawing, not by telling him what to do, yelling at him, and dominating through cruelty. Errrm, usually. (*hides*)
- I'm not a bully whatsoever, though I've been told I "can be scary" in some contexts (I swear, this is unintentional.)
- I own up to my mistakes, I take responsibility for my action, and I'm willing to apologize - if I mean it and I actually intend to change. I won't do empty apologies, though.
- I'm respectful, or even kind to people until they give me a reason not to be.

I don't even know which source to mention because I think we've all seen 8s being described in ways that are incongruent with this. Of course, some sources emphasize certain behaviors more than others.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Octavarium said:


> It makes me wonder: if Ichazo said we all have three fixations, who decided that it was core/dominant type that's important?


To be fair, what I've read suggests that Ichazo still saw two of the fixations as "co-fixations," meaning that there was still one that was strongest. However, I've seen people on the EI boards talk as if Ichazo brought up bad cases where people oscillate between all three fixations. Actually, yeah, I remember a few key phrases and was able to pull it up after a quick google search: The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - Trifix ?.

Search 'god help us' for the key point within the thread. You might be able to find something more interesting bouncing off from there. I haven't explored the idea more because my other fixations feel subordinate to my gut one. And also, come to think of it, if you're exploring Ichazo, you should know that he considered each instinct to be attached to one triad (gut-preservation, heart-relation, head-adaptation). Instincts were understood a bit differently in Ichazo's system.

Here's a source for that: Unveiling the Enneagram - the enneagram ...info from the underground (note that there are 4 pages about Ichazo's stuff; more interesting stuff is around pages 2-3). If you're hanging around the Enneagram and decide to explore this issue deeper, I'd love to hear it if you end up finding anything more (or can make better sense of Ichazo's ideas).


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

This is not about me but my brother who I know very well and have observed closely. I'm quite sure of his typing. He has by himself verified it (only based on short descriptions though). I type him 8w7 with the fixations of 3 and 6. He looks sadly sp-last but he has been unhealthy for ages, it might affect. He cannot be so-last, he finds so-related issues too essential. I assume he is ESTJ, Te and Si are rather obvious as is F-inferior. I wanted to write about him here because I don't see that much 8 issues here and at least I feel I don't know 8s well enough but would like to learn more. If you get the impression I'm wrong about his type, just let me know.


My brother is one of the people that just cannot be ignored, even if he wanted to be unnoticed. He's got way too much energy around and in him. Not that his movements necessarily were fast or something like that, no. He's just very intense and charismatic, he _steals_ the attention. At his best, he is very protective for others, a positive and strong character which I appreciate greatly. He got furious when he heard our much younger little brother had been teased by some other kids and went to see them to stop the teasing. I'm sure he managed to intimidate them deeply. Needless to say, the teasing stopped right away. And I know that at least once he has saved someone's (who he didn't even know) life keeping the suicide attempt just an attempt by holding on, not letting this person to jump and convincing it was not the solution. My brother is also very intelligent and was good at school. One might assume great things happening to him. The universum is still waiting for that to happen.

Today, he is a young adult with no education, job, place of his own, relationship or even very good physical health. And he can really be a huge jerk no-one can tolerate around. It's very sad to watch. I don't even expect that to change very soon, he takes little responsibility over his own life. As over-confident as he is about his abilities, he seems to get nothing done to fix the situation. I have no idea what he is waiting for. At his worst, he keeps his phone, his heart and every door and window closed and refuses to see anybody or do anything except perhaps eat which he loves more than is healthy.

Okay, this was supposed to be more than a sad story... What sometimes looks controversial related to his Enneagram type is his anxiety, paranoid and suspicious character. The man clearly seems core 8, I find it hard to see how he wouldn't be 8. But he also has had huge anxiety issues and insecurity. Sure, medical and psychiatric conditions are different thing from Enneagram but sometimes they look like motivations, sometimes it's hard to tell. My brother can be very suspicious about other people assuming they are all after him or laughing at him. He has panick attacks which make going to work difficult for him, he does not trust himself enough to conquer those fears. And what amazes me the most is that when we were young, _I_ was the daredevil of the family. I loved speed and heights and things like that and I didn't mean to but still I was highly unaware of many dangers and would do many things my brother just couldn't or didn't even dare to try (and we are pretty much the same age). In addition, he makes fun of his own weaknesses, he can even make a show of them! It's really... weird. The only way I understand it is that he wants to show he is above his weaknesses and makes attempts to use his weaknesses against him futile. 

Well, there's something... IMO, some aspects about my brother seem a bit controversial and does not totally match up with his Enneagram typing and it bothers me, I have to admit.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

> I've been guilty of getting sucked into the enneagram as well, and I sometimes wonder what I would be like if I never learned about the enneagram. Sometimes I wonder if I would be more myself without it. But then I remember that it's the enneagram that lead me to introspect deeply and analyze my motivations, and I've gained a lot of self-awareness because of it. Going typeless seems to be helping me as well, because it helps to eliminate expectations and makes it easier to examine myself from other perspectives.


I actually think that's a really good way to figure out what your type really is. Since my highest scores have always been 5,4,6,9 and 7, I decided to imagine that I was each one of those types and subsequently was able to rule them out all but the correct one.

This wasn't easy by any means but it ultimately led to my focusing my attention on _*observing*_ myself as opposed to *analyzing* myself. You can make yourself insane with the enneagram or any other typology system by doing that! Ironically, I found out that once I stopped trying to drive myself crazy by compulsively and pointless investigating myself and just "relaxed"; I began to notice not only the unhealthy behaviour specific to my type but I really started to become aware of how my type's particular way of paying attention, basic fear, drive, desire, vice and virtue actually completely dictated the way I live my life. It was extremely sobering and awe inspiring, to say the least.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I keep coming back to the same conclusion that nothing fits in terms of motivations. None of the types are right. I'd quit and accept that I'm probably not any of the enneagram types, but I'm too stubborn, and I couldn't stop analyzing if I tried. :frustrating:


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@*Silveresque*
Lol, I'm sorry. I'm pretty confused about it too, and it's a bit frustrating. >_< But I figure, even if I never find my enneatype, the enneagram is a fun thing.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Now that I've figured out my type...

I'm a 9 but I can be very prone to anxiety and get stressed out easily. I sometimes have a hard time relaxing, partly because I get relaxation-induced anxiety after a bit. So much for the stereotype of 9's being calm/chill/relaxed. And don't even get me started on "cognitive laziness" and lack of self-awareness. Those stereotypes really need to go away.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> Now that I've figured out my type...
> 
> I'm a 9 but I can be very prone to anxiety and get stressed out easily. I sometimes have a hard time relaxing, partly because I get relaxation-induced anxiety after a bit. So much for the stereotype of 9's being calm/chill/relaxed. And don't even get me started on "cognitive laziness" and lack of self-awareness. Those stereotypes really need to go away.


As well as Fives being emotionless robots.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> As well as Fives being emotionless robots.


I have an on/off switch. It's located by my nasal passages, you just have to reach a finger up to find it.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Flatliner said:


> I have an on/off switch. It's located by my nasal passages, you just have to reach a finger up to find it.


I've been told mine's directly up my ass. Except the on switch is very hard to get sometimes.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Flatliner said:


> I have an on/off switch. It's located by my nasal passages, you just have to reach a finger up to find it.





ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> I've been told mine's directly up my ass. Except the on switch is very hard to get sometimes.


Mine is between my legs.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Maybe said:


> Mine is between my legs.


Reminds me of Chii from Chobits. (Her power-switch is WHERE?)


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Mine is between my legs.


That's poor design, why would they ever put it in such a strange, conventionally inaccessible place.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Flatliner said:


> That's poor design, why would they ever put it in such a strange, conventionally inaccessible place.


Is your nasal passages such an accessible place?


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> Is your nasal passages such an accessible place?


Much more so, anyone could reach it if they got over their culturally-instilled psychological problems.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Interesting that they're all installed in cavities. Natural selection at work.


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