# What the head center really is about



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I personally find that this is the most poorly represented center of intelligence, mostly because a lot of people tend to talk about or attribute things to the head center that simply aren't true, e.g.

- Ability to reason/express oneself intelligently
- Ability to deal with abstract information
- Ability to think critically
- Interest in theory
- Having intellectual pursuits
- Being interested in debate/to logically argue
- Being anxious/suffer from anxiety
- Ability to formulate (independent) ideas
- Feeling out of touch with one's body/being bodily unaware 
- Poor attention to physical detail

None of these things are qualities that are unique or specific to the head center and in fact, they entirely miss out on what the head center is about. A lot of authors are quite vague about the centers of intelligence in general and may give some generic pointers e.g. Chestnut's description:



> The “head” center or “intellectual” center (Points 5, 6, and 7) regulates the thinking function: the experience and expression of thoughts, beliefs, and other cognitive activity. While essential for dispassionate analysis and reasoning, this form of intelligence can paralyze you if you get caught up in overanalyzing a situation.


From this, we could reasonably conclude that the above list that I wrote that is far from being exhaustive, could all be true for the head center, and what Chestnut wrote isn't per se wrong either; however, it needs to be placed within its proper context.

Above all else, the centers of intelligence can be seen as broad life strategies of how to tackle or solve personal problems, big and small. Head types approach life from the perspective of solving problems with their minds, and they do that because they do not trust their bodies and their own capability to act in the world. All of the head types share an inherent bias that they are not quite strong enough to manage and deal with the world on its own terms, so they must first take a step back and analyze with how to move forward before they actually move forward. 

This sentiment is especially true when reading descriptions about type 5 and 6, that both share a sense of physical frailty and a disposition towards inner weakness, though when it comes to type 5, it is more a sense of inner fatigue, and with 6, a sense of instability. 7s are not devoid of this and very much struggle with the same, but their cognitive mechanism is based on an idea of not seeking to experience or making this inner sense of weakness known to themselves so they must constantly be on the move in order to have their minds preoccupied (this is a bit gut-like and self-forgetting the way gut types are self-forgetting, which makes sense seeing how 7 is on the border of the gut center).

Another important theme for the head center is the theme of _existential_ anxiety, which is different from the general anxiety anyone can feel (and yes, unless you're a sociopath, everyone can and have felt anxiety at least once in one's life). For head types, anxiety is more of a constant backdrop, a feeling that is somehow quite always there even when they do not experience any consciously felt anxiety or are in an anxiety-inducing situation. Another way of calling this existential anxiety is more akin to a sense of constant dread, that life is somehow suddenly gonna take a drastic turn and you now find yourself without the resources and competency/capabilities you need to get by. Head types are therefore very preoccupied with finding ways to overcome this sense of deficiency within themselves and their surroundings and can thusly also be seen as strategic because they, more so than other types, think ahead before they jump by staking out what to do before they actually do it. Head types concern themselves a lot with preparation and planning. 

The problem, as is alluded to in Chestnut's very brief description, is that it can often tend to end up in over-analyzing where thinking replaces doing. It becomes easier to imagine what reality is, could or ought to be like as opposed to actually acting in reality itself. What if you stumble on your feet as you jump? Do you really know how deep the pit is? Is there a way to cushion yourself as you land? Once down there, how do you know you can get back up on your feet? What if you get stuck? 

In such a way, head types are also extremely imaginary and can be too caught up in their own imaginations and personal ruminations about reality as opposed to simply experiencing reality as it really is. 6s, as a typical example, can often paint dramatic situations about how things can go wrong in any given situation, even for such things that may seem very mundane and simple for other people e.g. crossing the street. What if a car comes rushing down the main street as I cross and it hits me? What if the traffic light suddenly switches from green to red and every car starts driving? What if I can't cross it in time and cars start driving as I am still crossing?

And so on and so forth. 

This active thinking (of potentially negative scenarios) can create such paralyzing fear that head types become completely unable to act which makes sense, because when you are constantly thinking about fearful situations that are dangerous/bother you in some way, you keep spinning this into grander and grander proportions until it becomes so big and scary that you rather not do anything at all because at least you know that you are safe here and now but you don't know if you will be safe once you move from where you are. From there, head types also undermine their own ability to act in the world because they trust their minds more when it comes to solving problems than they trust their gut (=bodies/ability to take action in the moment). 

This is really how simple "head energy" is. Do people try to solve life problems by thinking about how to approach the problem the best, so they rather look where they jump before they jump rather than just jumping and then begin to hesitate because they see how wide the chasm really is? (Yes, this is a figurative speech and should not be taken literally or meant to mean that I mean that every head type is like this all the time and non-head types are never like this.) If this is their _preferred _strategy when dealing with life, they are a head type.


----------



## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

I agree! I came to the same conclusion that head types were about the strategy and the way that the individual solves problems as well. Funny enough, I found that the main lines in palmistry (head, heart, life line) are very similar to the characteristics of the ones in the Enneagram.

Life line (gut): Vitality, gregariousness, libido, openness to others, physical energy
Head line: Logic/intuition, strategy, mental concentration, purposefulness/scatteredness
Heart line: Insecurity, idealistic/realistic in relationships, passion, relationships


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Quang said:


> I agree! I came to the same conclusion that head types were about the strategy and the way that the individual solves problems as well. Funny enough, I found that the main lines in palmistry (head, heart, life line) are very similar to the characteristics of the ones in the Enneagram.
> 
> Life line (gut): Vitality, gregariousness, libido, openness to others, physical energy
> Head line: Logic/intuition, strategy, mental concentration, purposefulness/scatteredness
> Heart line: Insecurity, idealistic/realistic in relationships, passion, relationships


Glad to hear that you agree! 

Yes, I've noticed that some people for example make the assumption that someone else is a head type because they wrote a post similar to the OP and it's eloquently written with an intelligent point to make or add to discussion and it seems "intellectual" so therefore it's headish, but it entirely misses out on why it was written in the first place. 

I find that all the centers of intelligence come with their own strategies (though I suppose head types are the most actively strategizing), where:

Gut: Doing/taking decisive action and to face problems heads on. It's like that Shia LeBouf meme "just do it" lol, I think that's a very gut message, though I guess more on the 8ish side. 
Head: Strategizing, thinking about how to best overcome the problem, mapping and planning in order to find out the best and most safe method. 
Heart: No idea, I literally cannot grasp what strategy this center is about but I think it's about emotional connection, that when you're seen and present a certain image of yourself that others like more it means that you are more beneficial to yourself and others? 

LOL, heart types are free to suggest something there because I cannot even begin to fathom what the heart triad is about.


----------



## Immolate (Mar 8, 2015)

Entropic said:


> This active thinking (of potentially negative scenarios) can create such paralyzing fear that head types become completely unable to act which makes sense, because when you are constantly thinking about fearful situations that are dangerous/bother you in some way, you keep spinning this into grander and grander proportions until it becomes so big and scary that you rather not do anything at all because at least you know that you are safe here and now but you don't know if you will be safe once you move from where you are. From there, head types also *undermine their own ability to act in the world because they trust their minds more when it comes to solving problems than they trust their gut (=bodies/ability to take action in the moment)*.
> 
> This is really how simple "head energy" is. Do people try to solve life problems by thinking about how to approach the problem the best, so *they rather look where they jump before they jump rather than just jumping and then begin to hesitate because they see how wide the chasm really is*? (Yes, this is a figurative speech and should not be taken literally or meant to mean that I mean that every head type is like this all the time and non-head types are never like this.) If this is their _preferred _strategy when dealing with life, they are a head type.


This encapsulates my struggle all to well.

I appreciate your post. It's given me a few things to consider.


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Can a person appear to have switched centers when disintegrating for a long time? The way you describe the head center sounds exactly like me, although I've been exhausted for years and have had to compensate with planning and vigilance. I'm wondering if it's simply due to the specific experience of exhaustion/burnout or if it's related to disintegrating to a head type. Maybe other types would use different strategies to adapt in the same situation.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Recede said:


> Can a person appear to have switched centers when disintegrating for a long time? The way you describe the head center sounds exactly like me, although I've been exhausted for years and have had to compensate with planning and vigilance. I'm wondering if it's simply due to the specific experience of exhaustion/burnout or if it's related to disintegrating to a head type. Maybe other types would use different strategies to adapt in the same situation.


Yes, disintegration can affect it but it is not the primary means that is ultimately the most natural for you, so underneath it you'll find that there is a deeper motivation that supports your core type. Mario Sikora goes into this in more detail in one of his videos. I'll link it later.

To put it this way; why do you think this sounds exactly like you? Could the identification simply be a desire to disindentify with your core because it's more comfortable to identify with someone else (just pointing out a pattern with you being unable to really want to identify with something or you end up identifying with specific traits)?


----------



## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

As far as theory added to theory goes, this was a pleasant and thoughtful read. I'm curious to know what impacts you most about what you've described here. How has this furthered you on your journey, and furthermore, what are you hoping to get out of sharing your thoughts you described here?


----------



## Gilly (Apr 22, 2012)

@*Entropic* I agree with pretty much all you've said but yeah. I'm not certain frailty or constant dread is necessarily the correct blanket terminology. 

I've never felt physically frail, even when near death. I've not a sense of constant dread, so much as constant awareness. 
I realize we are not all the same, and in this, our functions (mbti/socionics) may play a role in the differences in how our enneagram types manifest. 

I do most heartedly agree that we look (or avoid looking - Hi 7s) before acting (or hiding). 
I think the common descriptions used for the head, is mostly general and the head type you have in your enneagram is how you think and the issues you may face. But any person will be facing them depending which they have, because we all have ways of thinking, yet we aren't all ruled by those things the way main head types are. 

What you describe is indeed, the main attributes of a 'head type' (5,6,7). 
Now to get it published


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Gilly how else would you describe it?

@Ace Face it's mostly a matter of unfairness and injustice. That's something that gets more easily on my nerves than most things. It's also a personal quest for vindication for those I think have wronged the innocent in the past and will keep wronging the innocent in the future by spreading such misinformed opinions. It's about setting things straight and make it just and fair again. 

I'll pm you the rest because that's private.


----------



## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Entropic said:


> @*Ace Face* it's mostly a matter of unfairness and injustice. That's something that gets more easily on my nerves than most things. It's also a personal quest for vindication for those I think have wronged the innocent in the past and will keep wronging the innocent in the future by spreading such misinformed opinions. It's about setting things straight and make it just and fair again.
> 
> I'll pm you the rest because that's private.


That's so beautiful. I love how genuinely well-intentioned you are, and I love that you concern yourself greatly with fairness and justice. I am looking forward to reading the more detailed version of this, for sure <3


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Recede said:


> Can a person appear to have switched centers when disintegrating for a long time? .


Absolutely. I am core 8, but absolutely look like a 5 in some contexts. Some people only see me as a 5 as that is the part of life they knew me in.


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Heart: No idea, I literally cannot grasp what strategy this center is about but I think it's about emotional connection,


Sent with a smile.............

some examples from another 8's POV

trying to help others by sharing your Truth, in hopes it helps. 
the smile when something you have written has impacted another in a good way
the feeling of good when Helping someone grow
that empathy shit

the feeling of being loved by someone who KNOWS you.


----------



## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> that empathy shit


LOL I cracked up!!

Ik it was a serious post but that was just so hilarious a phrasing


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

The whole idea of Enneagram and typology emphasizes conceptualizing over doing. Everybody here is trying to figure this thing out with their minds because they can't do it in real life. About the only guy on here doing something with it is TreeBob. What subject has more paralysis by analysis? Other people are out living, we are modelling living people.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Sent with a smile.............
> 
> some examples from another 8's POV
> 
> ...



Nobody knows you or anybody else. If they did, they couldn't love you. Love requires ignorance. I actually think misunderstanding is a prerequisite to love. Like with pets and humans. Pets don't love you despite not understanding you, they love you because of it. Shit, now I am sounding like a 2.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

This does encapsulate how I view head types. I didn't know many people thought otherwise.

About 7s tho, I was thinking more of the theme of ennui. Boredom. Boredom creates anxiety. Inactivity creates anxiety. Stagnation. But this is true for many people and not just 7 or head types.


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Nobody knows you or anybody else. If they did, they couldn't love you. Love requires ignorance. I actually think misunderstanding is a prerequisite to love. Like with pets and humans. Pets don't love you despite not understanding you, they love you because of it. Shit, now I am sounding like a 2.


What if you knew someone in great depth, and you knew all the bad secrets, and knew the horrible things they have done, and you loved them so very much for that? For a 5, I would think that would be scary.

For an 8, someone knowing me in depth, knowing all my secrets, someone deep into my soul, someone I loved deeply, told me I am soulless, unfeeling creature incapable of ever loving. I thought that was pretty bad, but I survived.

Later someone got to know me, who loves me still, and that is pretty good. 

As an 8, I can turn up the rage, and my body can't be "hurt." I learned at a young age my mind can't be hurt through words or thoughts. I made walls to turn the feelings. It has taken a long time to let people through the walls to my heart, and some who have arrived there have not hurt me. 
Those that did hurt my heart I survived.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes. I relate to that. Being exposed. You have to expose yourself to let people love you. 

I have read that 5 is the hardest type to get close to. I think it is in one of the stickies here too. 

I do think words hurt tho. Often I would rather take a punch in the face than hear to slicing words from certain people. Words have causal power. They have effect. 

CS Lewis really communicated my fears about this. Selfish people are hard to love because so little love comes out of them. 

I remember the ending of Wizard of Oz when the wizard tells the Tin Man that he is lucky he does not have a heart. Hearts will only be practical till they can be made unbreakable. 

“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.” 
― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Yes. I relate to that. Being exposed. You have to expose yourself to let people love you.
> 
> I do think words hurt tho. Often I would rather take a punch in the face than hear to slicing words from certain people. Words have causal power. They have effect.
> 
> ...


We all come from different places. I'm an 8, you a 5. For me, my blind spots and fears are different than your's. My dad is a brilliant 5, very gifted with words, and from a young age he trained me to be invulnerable to words by using his words on me. Using words to destroy and tear down is easy for me. I'm fucking really good at it. As an 8, I look at how things can change others. My guess is you look at how words could be used to get into you. Different fears.....

It is much harder to use words to connect, to grow, to build. That is more of interest to me of late. 

Teenagers are selfish. They must be to learn the lessons of separation and growth. I can love someone who is trying, who is making effort, who is being selfish in order to take care of themselves to become a bigger, better person and grow out of the situation they are in. 

Narcissists who are content I have no time for. Addicts I cannot fix, and they do not want my love. Selfish people want nothing of importance from me. 
I watched a speech on youtube by the Dali Lama about this subject. He suggests connection, and compassion for everyone. Love everyone, but if someone is hurting you, or being selfish, it is perfectly fine to remove yourself from their presence. I'm not that peaceful, and for me, as an 8, I will clear people from my presence by my actions and words. 

there are discussions about integration/disintegration and whether they are really directional, or even valid. For me, 5 is easy and comfortable. 
2 was invisible until I was ready to grow that way. 

I'm in the midst of change. A few weeks ago you and I went at it, and neither learned much except both perfected our asshole skills. This time, we are listening to each other. For me, this is a shift from "who has the power", to "can we form a connection." 
Power is MUCH easier for me. But connection has more meaning.

smiles.....


----------



## Brunissen (May 20, 2016)

@ Entropic Thank you for your insight, it gives me food for thought. I'm a bit surprised by the part about physical frailty, yet it can be true. In my childhood, I was rather intrepid and audacious, but I progressively lost confidence in my body. I don't know why. 

You're right about existential anxiety. I've always lived with a deep yet vague insecurity, as if I was constantly in danger. I wonder if an unconsciously perceived frailty could have lead me to think it's my responsability to scan everything, in order to not being overwhelmed by the outside. I mean that I may have anticipated rejection from people because of my fear, and it has built in my mind the conviction that I need to prepare myself to loneliness. That may be the reason why I am so reluctant to rely on others. It's not only a matter of trust, it's that I don't want to get used to something I can lose. Do you think it's typical of head center?


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Recede






@drmiller100 Yes, but how does that lead to a specific life strategy? I don't get it.

@Brunissen several authors mention this and it makes sense because head types distrust in their physical ability to affect the world in a way that suits their wills.


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic, 

Why did you write the OP of this thread? I suggest you wrote it for several reasons. One is when you write something in your own words, it helps you understand it, clearly something a 5 would do.

You also commented you don't want to lead others astray. 
>>> I think have wronged the innocent in the past and will keep wronging the innocent in the future by spreading such misinformed opinions.

the past is the past. But looking forward, you have a DESIRE to not wrong the innocent. you want to HELP them. You do it in your own way, using truth, and research, and logic, and knowledge. 

You are reaching out to others to help them, and that will increase in the future. You want to help others for 8 reasons, but some of those 8 reasons look somewhat like 2 reasons.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Brunissen said:


> @ Entropic Thank you for your insight, it gives me food for thought. I'm a bit surprised by the part about physical frailty, yet it can be true. In my childhood, I was rather intrepid and audacious, but I progressively lost confidence in my body. I don't know why.
> 
> You're right about existential anxiety. I've always lived with a deep yet vague insecurity, as if I was constantly in danger. I wonder if an unconsciously perceived frailty could have lead me to think it's my responsability to scan everything, in order to not being overwhelmed by the outside. I mean that I may have anticipated rejection from people because of my fear, and it has built in my mind the conviction that I need to prepare myself to loneliness. That may be the reason why I am so reluctant to rely on others. It's not only a matter of trust, it's that I don't want to get used to something I can lose. Do you think it's typical of head center?



The _Second Law of Thermodynamics_ states that as a system endures through time, it gradually dissipates energy and loses it. So everything runs down, even the universe. The Sun is burning out. This long-standing staple of Newtonian physics is being radically challenged, but like the Flat Earth theory, it makes common sense. *Fives choose this law as a metaphor for their life.* They tend to see their amount of energy (money, time, affection) as fixed. So it has to be hoarded. 

. The Five, with his fixed resources, finds it difficult to give time or money or love because the fear is that people won't give back, they will just take and take. All Enneagram styles have a worldview of deprivation and this is the form the Five has to deal with. This is a world of scarcity. Capitalism is a Five system. The law of supply and demand presupposes an economy of scarcity.

And of course, scarcity (and abundance) as a world-view brings about what it fears. Scarcity is a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you are stingy, the universe, including the people in it, are stingy right back. Which the Five knew all along they would be...


http://www.enneagramcentral.com/Enneagram/HoardingFives.htm


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

FearAndTrembling said:


> T
> 
> And of course, scarcity (and abundance) as a world-view brings about what it fears. Scarcity is a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you are stingy, the universe, including the people in it, are stingy right back. Which the Five knew all along they would be...


sooooo, random thought. is scarcity/abundance related to center? I live in a world of abundance. do all 8's? All gut types?

do all head types live in scarcity? I'd think hearts mostly live in abundance?


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> sooooo, random thought. is scarcity/abundance related to center? I live in a world of abundance. do all 8's? All gut types?
> 
> do all head types live in scarcity? I'd think hearts mostly live in abundance?



5's horde. Time too. CS Lewis talked about people who think every second of the day belongs to them. That is me. There is only one clock in the universe, it is mine, and you are on it. If you are using my time you better have money or violence on me. lol.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> sooooo, random thought. is scarcity/abundance related to center? I live in a world of abundance. do all 8's? All gut types?
> 
> do all head types live in scarcity? I'd think hearts mostly live in abundance?


Scarcity/abundance is related to the rejection triad. 5s, 8s and 2s all operate on a notion of scarcity in some way.


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Yes, disintegration can affect it but it is not the primary means that is ultimately the most natural for you, so underneath it you'll find that there is a deeper motivation that supports your core type. Mario Sikora goes into this in more detail in one of his videos. I'll link it later.
> 
> To put it this way; why do you think this sounds exactly like you? Could the identification simply be a desire to disindentify with your core because it's more comfortable to identify with someone else (just pointing out a pattern with you being unable to really want to identify with something or you end up identifying with specific traits)?


I think I used to be more typical Nine-like in the sense that I hardly worried about anything and just took things as they came. I basically did tasks when I felt like it, didn't stress much, and somehow everything worked out. I more easily tuned out the negatives, as a lot of things that could be stressful just never fully entered my awareness. 

For the last five years, I've been completely different. I don't simply assume things will work out anymore. I dwell on problems, imagine worst-case scenarios, and try to do whatever I can to solve issues. While I focus on problem-solving, my focus also goes toward guarding my freedom and energy. I have to plan around my energy, because I don't have enough of it. I avoid draining activities and try to spread out tasks so there's never too much to do at once. I experience a lot of dread, even when there's no reason to. It feels like I'm ungrounded, or subtly disoriented. 

This is in no way a desire to disidentify with my core. I don't like being in this mode at all. I wish I could go back to how I used to be, but so far I haven't been able to.


----------



## Gilly (Apr 22, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Nobody knows you or anybody else. If they did, they couldn't love you. Love requires ignorance. I actually think misunderstanding is a prerequisite to love. Like with pets and humans. Pets don't love you despite not understanding you, they love you because of it. Shit, now I am sounding like a 2.


Real love is all about knowing exactly how fucked up someone is and just getting it and being ok with it.
I feel kinda bad if the only people you can pretend to love are the ones you know nothing about.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Gilly said:


> Real love is all about knowing exactly how fucked up someone is and just getting it and being ok with it.
> I feel kinda bad if the only people you can pretend to love are the ones you know nothing about.



That sounds more like tolerance to me than love.

And as somebody said, "Those who love do not need a philosophy of love."

They just are love. They don't put it outside themselves and examine it as something distinct from them.

Like pets.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I mean it is like somebody with a cross around their neck. No matter what they do, they can show they believe in love just by that. Doesn't matter their actions. They need an ideology of love because they lack it in every other place outside that symbol.


----------



## Gilly (Apr 22, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> That sounds more like tolerance to me than love.
> 
> And as somebody said, "Those who love do not need a philosophy of love."
> 
> ...


I think this is more a reflection of yourself than it is anyone else.
I'm not even sure what you're referring to any more. You meet a person, or are raised near people. you learn who they are. The good and bad things they do, the way they act, how they think and how they feel, you learn the darkest and most light parts of who they are, and you want to be near them and there for them. 

You will help them or you will give them space, whatever it is they need. And they do those same things with you.
Everyone supporting and helping and caring for each other. Not needing to check your back because they are behind you looking the other way.

Isn't that love? Care and attention for others needs and knowing there is someone doing just as much for you?


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Gilly said:


> I think this is more a reflection of yourself than it is anyone else.
> I'm not even sure what you're referring to any more. You meet a person, or are raised near people. you learn who they are. The good and bad things they do, the way they act, how they think and how they feel, you learn the darkest and most light parts of who they are, and you want to be near them and there for them.
> 
> You will help them or you will give them space, whatever it is they need. And they do those same things with you.
> ...


No. It sounds like a business arrangement. Which may be a reflection of you. 

It sounds like a ritual. Going through the motions. A functionality.


----------



## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> No. It sounds like a business arrangement. Which may be a reflection of you.
> 
> It sounds like a ritual. Going through the motions. A functionality.


I don't understand why you have to deride someone's notion of love that they expressed in a heartfelt way. That's just mean, regardless of whether you understand their concept of it or not.

Personally, I believe love comes in all forms, whether it is the fleeting, blinding passion for a summer lover or the dedicated, long-lasting commitment towards a life partner. Or anything in between. That positive feeling of appreciation, happiness, warmth, and stability here and now in the moment.

That said, I believe that when it comes to a long-lasting, deep, and soulful sort of love... one is not blind. That sort of love arises from having your eyes open to all the flaws and imperfections of a person, all their demons, all their hitches. Seeing they have so much further to go, but WILLINGLY accepting that and undertaking the journey with them. It's a very grounding and connective experience. The truth is nobody is perfect or amazing. The truth ALSO is people are beautiful and capable of being loved with their flaws and fucked up sides. When that feeling exists and when two (or more) people are willing to support and nurture each other just as they are, while also encouraging them to grow positively... that is the deepest form of love. In my opinion. It can be romantic, familial, platonic, or whatever. That's also my interpretation of what she said.

It's true that not every form of the emotion of "love" turns out this way. Some forms, as I said, are blinding, intense, and fleeting. Some forms are sweet and pass away into the shadows of your mind. None of them are less "true" than the others. And yet, the form of love that is most grounded in reality feels the most satisfying and rewarding. Imo.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Night Huntress said:


> I don't understand why you have to deride someone's notion of love that they expressed in a heartfelt way. That's just mean, regardless of whether you understand their concept of it or not.
> 
> Personally, I believe love comes in all forms, whether it is the fleeting, blinding passion for a summer lover or the dedicated, long-lasting commitment towards a life partner. Or anything in between. That positive feeling of appreciation, happiness, warmth, and stability here and now in the moment.
> 
> ...



They derided my notion of love. 

You seem to know a lot about what "the truth" is. None of that is "the truth". lol.

Love is a lie. It is made for fools and it makes one wise to break the rules.


----------



## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> They derided my notion of love.
> 
> You seem to know a lot about what "the truth" is. None of that is "the truth". lol.
> 
> Love is a lie. It is made for fools and it makes one wise to break the rules.


I can see that this won't go anywhere. I disagree with you. But you do you.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> They derided my notion of love.
> 
> You seem to know a lot about what "the truth" is. None of that is "the truth". lol.
> 
> Love is a lie. It is made for fools and it makes one wise to break the rules.


Honestly, you sound more scared of connecting and being burned when you are rejected than speaking about love in any actual sense of the word. Your words suggest a fear of love, which is very different from suggesting that the love you decry that others speak of doesn't exist. Do however note that when you deny love, you deny yourself love, too, so ultimately the only one causing you to be alone is you, not other people, because you reject their love for not being real even in the moment when its the realest thing you could ever receive.








> [I. Losing The Sunsets]
> 
> Cold was the air that the evening wind brought
> Silent and so quiet were the woods
> ...


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Honestly, you sound more scared of connecting and being burned when you are rejected than speaking about love in any actual sense of the word. Your words suggest a fear of love, which is very different from suggesting that the love you decry that others speak of doesn't exist. Do however note that when you deny love, you deny yourself love, too, so ultimately the only one causing you to be alone is you, not other people, because you reject their love for not being real even in the moment when its the realest thing you could ever receive.


Well, love is a mechanism of control. It is a major reason Christianity is so successful. When somebody loves you, you owe them something. As somebody said, if you judge by the results what one calls love should be called hate. 

"If we judge love by the majority of its results, it resembles hatred more than friendship."

You're drunk, man.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Well, love is a mechanism of control. It is a major reason Christianity is so successful. When somebody loves you, you owe them something. As somebody said, if you judge by the results what one calls love should be called hate.
> 
> "If we judge love by the majority of its results, it resembles hatred more than friendship."
> 
> You're drunk, man.


That's not unconditional love and it's again a compensatory technique because one is afraid of rejection.


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

fascinating thread. 
the 8's are openly and honestly talking of wondering what the heart center is really all about. 
the 6's are sharing their ideas, and seem to be making sense to each other.
the 5 is kind of off in left field by himself. Almost like he does not have a good connection to a heart center, or has his own interpretation and is trying to rationalize it all.
So, checking enneagram 5, they have strong connections to 7 and 8. nothing obvious pointed to the heart center. and 5's are somewhat famous for being a bit disconnected from love. 

I will freely admit I have issues of control, and I'll agree with Entropic. When you learn to love without strings, people can't use that love to control you.


----------



## Gilly (Apr 22, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Well, love is a mechanism of control. It is a major reason Christianity is so successful. When somebody loves you, you owe them something. As somebody said, if you judge by the results what one calls love should be called hate.
> 
> "If we judge love by the majority of its results, it resembles hatred more than friendship."
> 
> You're drunk, man.


Real love is selfless and requires no payment. There is no debt. 
When you do something to see someone be happy, it's a payment all by itself. In fact, anyone thinking they need to return something to pay off that action belittles the love. It turnes it into a transaction instead of what it is, which is something freely given. 

Strings prevent real love from ever developing because there was no real love there except the "love" the person 'giving' has for themselves.


----------

