# Are NFJs "harder" than NFPs?



## Aiwass

Maybe my perception is distorted, but I think NFPs are softer compared to NFJs. A while ago, an INFP poster told me he thinks he is too "blunt" for INFJs. Lol no. Every single INFP I've met IRL is more of a pacifist and less stubborn than I am. Maybe I'm getting this type completely wrong but I can't see how an INFP could possibly be too "blunt" for me.

There's no comparison between ENFJs and ENFPs as well. I think ENFJs can be tough and pushy AF compared to ENFPs, mainly due to Fe lead and terc Se.


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## PathSeeker

Why can't they be blunt?


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## Aiwass

PathSeeker said:


> Why can't they be blunt?


I'm not saying they _can't_. I just don't see it as typical INFP behavior from what I've gathered. In fact, I see INFP as one of the softest types (they are high up there with ISFJ).

I can only imagine an INFP being a blunt hardass if someone crosses their Fi boundaries.


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## PathSeeker

Aiwass said:


> I'm not saying they _can't_. I just don't see it as typical INFP behavior from what I've gathered. In fact, I see INFP as one of the softest types (they are high up there with ISFJ).
> 
> I can only imagine an INFP being a blunt hardass if someone crosses their Fi boundaries.


Then why didn't you believe that INFP poster?


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## Aiwass

PathSeeker said:


> Then why didn't you believe that INFP poster?


Why are INTPs' questions so annoying?


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## PathSeeker

Aiwass said:


> Why are INTPs' questions so annoying?


We have a knack for detecting logical inconsistency.

(Edit: and other than that, it's mostly warped perception due to assumptions, conscious or otherwise, based on one's type.)


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## Aiwass

PathSeeker said:


> We have a knack for detecting logical inconsistency.


First off, I didn't say he can't be "blunt". I said I can't envision an INFP being _too blunt for me_.
Does it make sense now?


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## PathSeeker

Aiwass said:


> First off, I didn't say he can't be "blunt". I said I can't envision an INFP being _too blunt for me_.
> Does it make sense now?


I didn't say the INFP was right. I think different people have different reception of "bluntness". So it would make little sense to categorize one type as unable to handle bluntness coming from another type. You must not generalize your reception of bluntness to others with a "Lol no."

It probably depends on the situation. I have seen INFPs be blunt compared to others.

(I have decided to include this in an edit instead of responding later - there is no contradiction between "not believing INFP" and "not believing INFJ". They both have their own perceptions based on their interactions. And I would declare both statements, when generalized, incorrect.)


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## attic

I have been accused of bluntness many times, more often when I was younger though, I am a bit better at thinking before I speak now. But I think it might be different kinds of blunt. I can easily put my foot in my mouth when it comes to social faux pas. I also have quite often made comments that I thought were either just neutral observations (show I care enough about the company to pay attention), or even compliments, when not thinking twice, because they were so in my mind (say I might have said a woman looked a bit like a male celebrity -everyone thought I was rude and she was hurt -but I didn't mean it as offense, she just had a few facialfeatures in common with him, and it was a pretty man, and I think slightly masculine women are often pretty, so to me it was a compliment if anything, or neutral observation, and it didn't occur to me before I spoke that it could be taken as "you look manly, which is bad, and like that celebrity that one might not want to be associated with" ) . I usually understand those kinds of things given a little time to contemplate (so less when writing), but it is not in my backbone to consider what the general opinion about something is, and I often speak while I think, talking being part of the thoughtprocess.

And then there is where values are crossed of course, and not being able to allow oneself to stay quiet or agree, sometimes even a tendency to disagree for the sake of it when people begin to nod and agree with each other to build a cozy groupfeel. I can sometimes when not thinking be blunt and vocal about dislikes too, which people can take offense to when they like that thing. Sometimes I understand that it can be taken to heart (some likes and dislikes are showing identity, mirror who you are, like music for example), sometimes not (like about what the best kind of bread is or something, where I see no point in agreeing)

INFJs bluntness I have come across is more like... barging in and telling you "ok, this is how it is/how things work, let me explain to you: ..." , in that kind of situation infps might be less blunt, more roundabout and state things subjectively, or show rather than tell.


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## NewBeginning

Aiwass said:


> Maybe my perception is distorted, but I think NFPs are softer compared to NFJs. A while ago, an INFP poster told me he thinks he is too "blunt" for INFJs. Lol no. Every single INFP I've met IRL is more of a pacifist and less stubborn than I am. Maybe I'm getting this type completely wrong but I can't see how an INFP could possibly be too "blunt" for me.
> 
> There's no comparison between ENFJs and ENFPs as well. I think ENFJs can be tough and pushy AF compared to ENFPs, mainly due to Fe lead and terc Se.



Yes. INFJs are extremely complicated and difficult people in my opinion. Every INFJ I have ever known has been charismatic and cute to me (INFP) in the beginning of our friendship, and slightly making fun of me and calling me "confused" toward the end. ENFPs and ENFJs have done this to me as well. Other INFPs I have known are nothing like myself, only perhaps behaviorally in terms of the laws of physics, but still in different ways. I've felt that INFJs are physically lighter and lither but definitely more idealistic to a victimization fault and maybe even feel they've lived a tougher life or something (even if that's not true, that's the aura they tend to give off sometimes). INFJs are tougher and more go-getting in the creative sense. After all, it is the Beta quadra...which I hate to do, but INFJs have excluded me from groups. One had a wedding and never actually made a point to have me there, despite meeting her husband through a date I met online.


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## SummerBreasts

Aiwass said:


> Maybe my perception is distorted, but I think NFPs are softer compared to NFJs. A while ago, an INFP poster told me he thinks he is too "blunt" for INFJs. Lol no. Every single INFP I've met IRL is more of a pacifist and less stubborn than I am. Maybe I'm getting this type completely wrong but I can't see how an INFP could possibly be too "blunt" for me.
> 
> There's no comparison between ENFJs and ENFPs as well. I think ENFJs can be tough and pushy AF compared to ENFPs, mainly due to Fe lead and terc Se.


I find the exact opposite. INFJ's are naturally pinging for validation cookies. They're much less likely to do things that are disagreeable because then they don't get those sweet sweet cookies. INFJs are obligated to others, so they aren't going to do whatever they feel like unless it's ok with everyone else.

INFPs, on the other hand, couldn't care less about validation. They do whatever they want, whenever they want. As a result, their actions will often run up against others boundaries and cause tension. INFPs are obligated to themselves, so they're going to do what feels right for THEM, regardless of what anyone else thinks.


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## dulcinea

Maybe it has to do with the Jungian definition of judging vs perceiving.
When Jung describes the two, it seems like, in this sense, they mean, basically, deciding vs taking in information for deciding.
People with a perceiving preference tend to put more priority on information getting than making the decision, whereas people with a judging preference like to decide on something and be done with it. It has actually been one of the few sources of contention/conflict between myself and my INTP. He often procrastination the decision making process, because he wants to take in more information, first, and I see where there are times when you don't have enough time to take in all the information you need, and need to just make a choice, so it's actually rather difficult for me not to be a bit pushy with him in some scenarios.


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## attic

SummerBreasts said:


> I find the exact opposite. INFJ's are naturally pinging for validation cookies. They're much less likely to do things that are disagreeable because then they don't get those sweet sweet cookies. INFJs are obligated to others, so they aren't going to do whatever they feel like unless it's ok with everyone else.
> 
> INFPs, on the other hand, couldn't care less about validation. They do whatever they want, whenever they want. As a result, their actions will often run up against others boundaries and cause tension. INFPs are obligated to themselves, so they're going to do what feels right for THEM, regardless of what anyone else thinks.


Agreed, but I would also add that "what feels right for THEM", can be not to hurt people's feelings (for example by being blunt), so that ought to factor in and differ quite a bit from infp to infp, how important they think that is compared to what their bluntness acheives.

edit: oh, and remembered a second aspect to it is that one can reign in the bluntness by plain tactics. I for example hold my tongue about animal rights/veganism quite often nowadays, compared to when I was a teen. Because I have come to the conclusion I often find it is not contra-effective (not always though), and I generally value that things change more than getting to express what I feel about it.

So what I mean is that I agree there is less incentive to reign oneself in because of validation, but it doesn't mean one just speak one's mind all the time, there are other reasons to hold one's tongue.


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## SummerBreasts

attic said:


> Agreed, but I would also add that "what feels right for THEM", can be not to hurt people's feelings (for example by being blunt), so that ought to factor in and differ quite a bit from infp to infp, how important they think that is compared to what their bluntness acheives.
> 
> edit: oh, and remembered a second aspect to it is that one can reign in the bluntness by plain tactics. I for example hold my tongue about animal rights/veganism quite often nowadays, compared to when I was a teen. Because I have come to the conclusion I often find it is not contra-effective (not always though), and I generally value that things change more than getting to express what I feel about it.
> 
> So what I mean is that I agree there is less incentive to reign oneself in because of validation, but it doesn't mean one just speak one's mind all the time, there are other reasons to hold one's tongue.


Absolutely. Completely agree.


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## Aiwass

SummerBreasts said:


> I find the exact opposite. INFJ's are naturally pinging for validation cookies. They're much less likely to do things that are disagreeable because then they don't get those sweet sweet cookies. INFJs are obligated to others, so they aren't going to do whatever they feel like unless it's ok with everyone else.
> 
> INFPs, on the other hand, couldn't care less about validation. They do whatever they want, whenever they want. As a result, their actions will often run up against others boundaries and cause tension. INFPs are obligated to themselves, so they're going to do what feels right for THEM, regardless of what anyone else thinks.


I strongly disagree. NFJs can be notoriously pushy when it comes to their visions (Ni) and convictions - when taken to extremes, unfortunately, this tendency can create someone like Hitler (lol). This happens because what the Fe user sees as harmony is not always perceived by others as harmonious.

INFP's aren't obliged to anybody else, but on the other hand, they don't have much of an agenda to influence others like NFJs do, either. They are very respectful of other points of view (Ne) and different ways to express one's individuality.

Edit: Of course, this doesn't mean every NFJ is a forceful pushy Hitler-like personality, but I've definitely seen that happening. I've never seen the same force of expression and will to influence other people and groups in INFPs.


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## Aiwass

NewBeginning said:


> Yes. INFJs are extremely complicated and difficult people in my opinion. Every INFJ I have ever known has been charismatic and cute to me (INFP) in the beginning of our friendship, and slightly making fun of me and calling me "confused" toward the end. ENFPs and ENFJs have done this to me as well. Other INFPs I have known are nothing like myself, only perhaps behaviorally in terms of the laws of physics, but still in different ways. I've felt that INFJs are physically lighter and lither but definitely more idealistic to a victimization fault and maybe even feel they've lived a tougher life or something (even if that's not true, that's the aura they tend to give off sometimes). INFJs are tougher and more go-getting in the creative sense. After all, it is the Beta quadra...which I hate to do, but INFJs have excluded me from groups. One had a wedding and never actually made a point to have me there, despite meeting her husband through a date I met online.


Yes, you get my point. Few people understand Socionics around here, but you seem to do. The Beta quadra. Of all quadras, it is the most expressive quadra and perhaps the most sensitive to conflict. INFPs are in the Delta quadra, or the most chill quadra. 

And I'm sorry these particular INFJs have been mean to you. They sound like jerks (and yeah, INFJs can be jerks) 🤷‍♀️


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## Aiwass

attic said:


> I have been accused of bluntness many times, more often when I was younger though, I am a bit better at thinking before I speak now. But I think it might be different kinds of blunt. I can easily put my foot in my mouth when it comes to social faux pas. I also have quite often made comments that I thought were either just neutral observations (show I care enough about the company to pay attention), or even compliments, when not thinking twice, because they were so in my mind (say I might have said a woman looked a bit like a male celebrity -everyone thought I was rude and she was hurt -but I didn't mean it as offense, she just had a few facialfeatures in common with him, and it was a pretty man, and I think slightly masculine women are often pretty, so to me it was a compliment if anything, or neutral observation, and it didn't occur to me before I spoke that it could be taken as "you look manly, which is bad, and like that celebrity that one might not want to be associated with" ) . I usually understand those kinds of things given a little time to contemplate (so less when writing), but it is not in my backbone to consider what the general opinion about something is, and I often speak while I think, talking being part of the thoughtprocess.
> 
> And then there is where values are crossed of course, and not being able to allow oneself to stay quiet or agree, sometimes even a tendency to disagree for the sake of it when people begin to nod and agree with each other to build a cozy groupfeel. I can sometimes when not thinking be blunt and vocal about dislikes too, which people can take offense to when they like that thing. Sometimes I understand that it can be taken to heart (some likes and dislikes are showing identity, mirror who you are, like music for example), sometimes not (like about what the best kind of bread is or something, where I see no point in agreeing)
> 
> INFJs bluntness I have come across is more like... barging in and telling you "ok, this is how it is/how things work, let me explain to you: ..." , in that kind of situation infps might be less blunt, more roundabout and state things subjectively, or show rather than tell.


When you described your experiences (especially the first part about being oblivious that certain types of factual statements could be offensive to other people), it immediately came to my head that some of these situations are more due to E5 than due to INFP. The INFP 9s I know for example are slightly different.

You make a fair point about disagreeing for the sake of avoiding "groupthink"/"groupfeel". I admit I've seen INFPs doing that, even the most pacifist ones. I'm just not sure I would call this behavior bluntness.


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## witty

Aiwass said:


> Why are INTPs' questions so annoying?


🤣

I understand both of you, and you're both right. INTP is only slightly out of context regarding what INFJ is asking.

From an INTJ, INFP can be generally more sensitive than INFJ. And a certain INFP can be wired to step on the toe of an INFJ and vice versa. But not as much as an ESTP (or an INTP) would step on an INFJs toe 😆 

Conclusion, a certain INFP can be TOO blunt for an INFJ (unintentionally, and based on perspectives, as INTP SAID) but that's generally unlikely as they're both intuitive feelers (as OP said). INFP has more regard for feelings and are less likely to appear blunt to INFJ. Especially if the INFJ has been exposed to thinkers that are clueless in the feelings game. 

A cold 💙 for the intuitive feelers. ✌


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## SummerBreasts

Aiwass said:


> I strongly disagree. NFJs can be notoriously pushy when it comes to their visions (Ni) and convictions - when taken to extremes, unfortunately, this tendency can create someone like Hitler (lol). This happens because what the Fe user sees as harmony is not always perceived by others as harmonious.
> 
> INFP's aren't obliged to anybody else, but on the other hand, they don't have much of an agenda to influence others like NFJs do, either. They are very respectful of other points of view (Ne) and different ways to express one's individuality.
> 
> Edit: Of course, this doesn't mean every NFJ is a forceful pushy Hitler-like personality, but I've definitely seen that happening. I've never seen the same force of expression and will to influence other people and groups in INFPs.


They have an Ni vision, but that strong moral conviction comes from F, not Ni.
In particular, it's the Fi's that will push their moral convictions harder because they're taking them way more seriously than Fe. 

I've never heard a Dom Fe say "if you can't understand the importance of this moral, then we can't be friends". But I've heard MANY Fi Doms say things like that. And sometimes even worse.


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## IDontThinkSo

MBTI J and P measure symptoms of intro and extraversion. MBTI E and I doesn't measure shit. Introverts hence Js are habit reinforcers so they are all invasive and pushy. But bluntness can be achieved in may ways, depends on who's getting hurt by it and why.


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## Aiwass

SummerBreasts said:


> They have an Ni vision, but that strong moral conviction comes from F, not Ni.
> In particular, it's the Fi's that will push their moral convictions harder because they're taking them way more seriously than Fe.
> 
> I've never heard a Dom Fe say "if you can't understand the importance of this moral, then we can't be friends". But I've heard MANY Fi Doms say things like that. And sometimes even worse.


Fi won't push their moral convictions harder. Why? Fi is introverted. Fi is an isolated island. How can an introverted function manifest itself this way on the environment? Fi is experienced internally. It is not really manifested outside of the person who is experiencing the function this way.

I think ISFPs are harder and tougher than INFPs because Se is their auxiliary function, not Ne. Ne comes across as goofy and light. Se is concrete and direct.

Fe comes across as harder than Fi because it is extroverted. It will push others. Fe is like the "law of the land", and tries to control the entire outer environment.


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## Aiwass

IDontThinkSo said:


> MBTI J and P measure symptoms of intro and extraversion. MBTI E and I doesn't measure shit. Introverts hence Js are habit reinforcers so they are all invasive and pushy. But bluntness can be achieved in may ways, depends on who's getting hurt by it and why.


I dunno where or why you came up with this theory, but it doesn't make any sense. Out of all the Jungian dichotomies, introversion and extroversion are the most validated by modern Psychology and they have nothing to do with reinforcing habits. Introversion/extroversion already have their own definitions that are completely distinct from what you are describing.


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## witty

Aiwass said:


> I dunno where or why you came up with this theory, but it doesn't make any sense. Out of all the Jungian dichotomies, introversion and extroversion are the most validated by modern Psychology and they have nothing to do with reinforcing habits. Introversion/extroversion already have their own definitions that are completely distinct from what you are describing.


you’re right. I was too lazy to answer him/her.


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## IDontThinkSo

Aiwass said:


> introversion/extroversion already have their own definitions that are completely distinct from what you are describing.


except that i'm the one who actually develops on how jung trully described introversion and extraversion and explained countless times why and how here by endlessly quoting him to dumb things down as much as possible and point out where and why he was contradicting his own definitions. Now feel free to be the first one to find any contradiction in my arguments if you can figure out where they are, I won't waste my time rewriting it all anymore. Have fun


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## witty

IDontThinkSo said:


> except that i'm the one who actually develops on how jung trully described introversion and extraversion and explained countless times why and how here by endlessly quoting him to dumb things down as much as possible and point out where and why he was contradicting his own definitions. Now feel free to be the first one to find any contradiction in my arguments if you can figure out where they are, I won't waste my time rewriting it all anymore. Have fun


mbti is based on jung, don’t forget there are some differences.


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## witty

IDontThinkSo said:


> MBTI J and P measure symptoms of intro and extraversion. MBTI E and I doesn't measure shit. Introverts hence Js are habit reinforcers so they are all invasive and pushy. But bluntness can be achieved in may ways, depends on who's getting hurt by it and why.


I’m a J and I’m trying so hard to me more pushy. Just doesn’t work for me, what am I doing wrong? I know an infj and an enfj Though, that very pushy, unintentionally. And also intjs That are so not pushy. I also met an enfp that was incredibly pushy. These are people I really got to know. Not just observing from a distance.

There’s much more to this than saying J are all invasive. That’s absolutely untrue, from extensive experience of mine. And can be easily proven to be untrue, by conducting a poll or something.

J and P sometimes differs between jung and MBTI. There’s that too.


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## NewBeginning

Aiwass said:


> Yes, you get my point. Few people understand Socionics around here, but you seem to do. The Beta quadra. Of all quadras, it is the most expressive quadra and perhaps the most sensitive to conflict. INFPs are in the Delta quadra, or the most chill quadra.
> 
> And I'm sorry these particular INFJs have been mean to you. They sound like jerks (and yeah, INFJs can be jerks) 🤷‍♀️


Yes. Most people into MBTI disregard Socionics entirely due to its European roots and just simply find it easier to reject, even though it has more mathematically accurate theory related to the laws of physics in it! 

There are certain aspects of Socionics that I don't understand, such as the shapes and the reasoning associated with it, and it has to do with my INFP stubbornness that comes into play (I never really enjoyed English GRAMMAR RULES and I still don't think I know what a preposition is for example) but I loved Vocabulary and Writing and I am actually a great editor. 

As far as the quadras go, Beta quadra doesn't find Deltas interesting. INFJs and I have always had a severe romantic chemistry in the beginning of the relationship which faces lighting-speed burnout, and falls apart after only a few weeks of daydreaming its idyllic chemistry into forever, until a day comes and it becomes nothing at all, because simply, another Beta or Delta enters the picture and all sorts of jealousy occurs where one person ends up not really either understanding what the conversations are about or just feeling left out and bored...

INFJs like to drink alcohol, I've found, and smoke a ton of cigarettes for the fashiony feel rather than the addiction.


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## IDontThinkSo

@witty The problem I have with your testimony, is that so called Js (introverts) are building their beliefs in confirmation bias since it's all about thought reinforcement so I can't take what you say for granted. Introversion is the cherry picking root of perversion. Introverted feelers are so logically deficient that they can call themselves entp because they don't like having tested as isfj and somehow convince themselves that the opposite of that is what they must be instead. I have given up on trying to argue with anyone but extraverted intuitives, whom I test by other means than the opinion they have of themselves.


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## witty

IDontThinkSo said:


> @witty The problem I have with your testimony, is that so called Js (introverts) are building their beliefs in confirmation bias since it's all about thought reinforcement so I can't take what you say for granted. Introversion is the cherry picking root of perversion. Introverted feelers are so logically deficient that they can call themselves entp because they don't like having tested as isfj and somehow convince themselves that the opposite of that is what they must be instead. I have given up on trying to argue with anyone but extraverted intuitives, whom I test by other means than the opinion they have of themselves.


Well I was willing to admit to my ignorance as I didn’t follow the topic enough to give a better reply. But curiously, I see that you’re the one with the bias. You’re generalizing so much I encourage you to forget about personality types and go study personality psychology. Some theories like Self determination theory and personality system integration, etc. Your understanding of the human personality is misguided. Hit me up in private so we get to know each other and share ideas. I may be gravely misunderstanding you. But your generalization makes me digress. You’re so objectively wrong and it’s so easily prove-able that I don’t think it’ll be possible. So I’m not gonna try. Just informing you that you’re over simplifying the human personality. Maybe you’re speaking from a perspective frame I’m not aware of right now. I know we’re talking about MBTI, and Socionics too (which I admittedly don’t know a lot about, I haven’t read the original work.) But your understanding of introversion, whose definition MBTI shares with Big Five, but with different uses, is wrong. Again, maybe you’re talking from a framework I’m not aware of, in which case I take the blame and apologize. But if that’s not the case, the only next logical explanation is that we’re both from a different parallel universe. And things are different from where we come from.

We’re not agreeing on the definition of introvert.
We’re not agreeing on the definition of J and P.
We’re not agreeing on the definition of logic.
We’re not agreeing on the definition of Introverted feelers.

Why do you bracket introvert after Js? Is that a sinthatical error or am I missing something?

Do you mean introvert that are feelers like IXFX?

Im rereading your message over and over but I’m so lost.

what’s going on here? 😅

I’m INTJ, I’m objective as it gets. I can expose my own ass with logic or let someone do so, even when it hurts.

You’re not better off having a logical conversation with ENFP (extraverted intuition) than with me, introverted intuition. And a J. Unless we’re also not in the same page what Extroverted intuition is and how it has nothing to do with logic, it’s a sensing function, it’s for information gathering.
Logic is done with thinking.
And it should be independently provable, nothing to do with belief.
I studied mathematics, there were INFPs. Doing well despite what you claim.

Why don’t you test me by the means you use to test extraverted intuitives?
I’ll respond only with proofs independent of my opinion. You get to vet the proof yourself.

don’t argue, provide proof that someone else can confirm and I’ll do the same and an introverted J.

I’m actually so confused I don’t know what to say but this is fun that’s why I’m keeping up. There’s something special for me to learn here.


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## witty

IDontThinkSo said:


> @witty The problem I have with your testimony, is that so called Js (introverts) are building their beliefs in confirmation bias since it's all about thought reinforcement so I can't take what you say for granted. Introversion is the cherry picking root of perversion. Introverted feelers are so logically deficient that they can call themselves entp because they don't like having tested as isfj and somehow convince themselves that the opposite of that is what they must be instead. I have given up on trying to argue with anyone but extraverted intuitives, whom I test by other means than the opinion they have of themselves.


Besides I don’t know what logic and what you’re saying now has to do with being pushy and invasive. I could have my belief build on confirmation bias. But being invasive and pushy means I try to impose my belief on you. Which most intjs will not do. And a healthy infj would rather absorb your belief than impose theirs on you.

So yeah. I feel like we’re not talking about the same thing. My bad, as I have mentioned, I haven’t read your possible previous messages so my apologies if I’m misunderstanding you due to lack of info.

But the problem I have with you is your cringy generalization.


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## IDontThinkSo

Introverts can't notice how pushy they are since they have very little awareness of their impact on their environment, which they underestimate especially the negative, since this cherry picking or confirmation bias generally mutes into a self serving bias to protect one's _ego_, unless the introvert is already convinced to be the worst person in the world.


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## IDontThinkSo

Being an introvert means to manipulate the datas that don't match the prognosis. The range of invasiveness solely depends on the range of the prognosis. An introvert living alone in a cave and having a system belief that only works in this cave doesn't make it less invasive, the absence of side effect is only incidental.


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## Aiwass

IDontThinkSo said:


> Being an introvert means to manipulate the datas that don't match the prognosis. The range of invasiveness solely depends on the range of the prognosis. An introvert living alone in a cave and having a system belief that only works in this cave doesn't make it less invasive, the absence of side effect is only incidental.


Jesus Christ dude, what do you think it is you're doing here? Being open to new ideas? lol
You are defending your own POV very stubbornly, all the while claiming people who aren't like you ("bad introverts") are the stubborn and close-minded ones. Can't you see how ironic and how much of a paradox this is?


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## witty

Aiwass said:


> Jesus Christ dude, what do you think it is you're doing here? Being open to new ideas? lol
> You are defending your own POV very stubbornly, all the while claiming people who aren't like you ("bad introverts") are the stubborn and close-minded ones. Can't you see how ironic and how much of a paradox this is?


Forget him his a troll 😆
I knew before I followed through though 😄

don’t you see how many inconsistencies are in his arguments? He talks about random things like, unrelated 😂

also, I’m wondering if he’s taking his pills today. Not to sound offensive to anyone but the curiosity got to me.


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## Aiwass

witty said:


> Forget him his a troll 😆
> I knew before follow through though 😄
> 
> don’t you see how many inconsistencies are in his arguments? He talks about random things like, unrelated 😂
> 
> also, I’m wondering if he’s taking his pills today. Not to sound offensive to anyone but the curiosity got to me.


I've seen people on this forum claiming things similar to "I am an extroverted intuitive who is open minded. Being open minded is good. You are an introverted intuitive who is close minded. Close minded is bad". Because this is totally what an "open minded" person would say, right? 

Sooo open minded and cognitivelly superior.


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## witty

Aiwass said:


> I've seen people on this forum claiming things similar to "I am an extroverted intuitive who is open minded. Being open minded is good. You are an introverted intuitive who is close minded. Close minded is bad". Because this is totally what an "open minded" person would say, right?
> 
> Sooo open minded and cognitivelly superior.


yeah 😂

It’s crazy 😅

Open minded means not discarding something different from what you do as bad. You don’t have to accept or integrate it, but let the other person, who it works for, have it. Maybe there’s something you can learn.

Sometimes it’s good to be open minded, sometimes it’s good to be close minded.
Sometimes an open minded person has to act close minded and vice versa, despite the possible discomfort, because it’d lead to a better outcome.

Even if I have a way that works for me, I’d help other people find ways that works for them. Instead of teaching them my way because it works for me. My way might not work for them.

Tolerance is not only key, but it’s vital. What you do is valuable simply because someone else does something different. So your value depends on diversity.

But then, this is an unmoderated public forum. So people can deliberately lie, say what they understand, even if wrong, etc. I just wish not too many people get misguided.

I really hope this guy is a troll and he doesn’t really believe what he explained, for the sake of others that haven’t learnt enough about MBTI to know how wrong he is.His username confirms he’s a troll though, like his gonna argue with you regardless of what you say. And you can’t agree with him even if you want to because hell just keep raining random pointless unrelated arguments 😅


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## SummerBreasts

Aiwass said:


> Fi won't push their moral convictions harder. Why? Fi is introverted. Fi is an isolated island. How can an introverted function manifest itself this way on the environment? Fi is experienced internally. It is not really manifested outside of the person who is experiencing the function this way.
> 
> I think ISFPs are harder and tougher than INFPs because Se is their auxiliary function, not Ne. Ne comes across as goofy and light. Se is concrete and direct.
> 
> Fe comes across as harder than Fi because it is extroverted. It will push others. Fe is like the "law of the land", and tries to control the entire outer environment.


Sure. Fe is obligated to others, so it will want to influence them more. But I think we are talking past each other a bit.

Yes Fi is an island, it is the source of its own morality. Although Fi sometimes takes in external information to change or update it's morality, updating is done purely on a "what feels right to me" basis. It doesn't care if its morals "feel" right to anyone else. But here's the thing, Fi users don't like when others step all over their boundaries.

Again, yes Fi is an island, but it doesn't handle criticism very well. When someone disagrees with it's morality, it will feel like a personal attack. You have to remember that the introverted functions are heavily tied to identity and ego. When an individuals identity and ego are under attack, what do they do? They go on the defense. The thing is, Fi morals are felt so deeply and so strongly that anyone stepping on them is a HUGE violation, and so Fi will sometimes act out in spectacular violence. Ergo, suicide bombers. 

The same is NOT true for Fe. Athough Fe will sometimes push back against the tribe because it is "obligated" to them, its morality is not as deeply felt as Fi. Further, unlike Fi, Fe is constantly taking cues and input from the tribe to check whether they have "consent" to have a particular value system. This is part of their seeking validation cookies. In this way, Fe very much depends on the tribe to tell it what is right and what is wrong. If someone disagrees with Fe, it is much less likely than Fi to feel outrage because the source of its morality is external. Fe's values are not attached to the ego.

So again, you're right. Fi is an island. But Fi is much more likely to act out in rage and fury because its morality is attached to the ego.


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## bmuddy120

Aiwass said:


> Maybe my perception is distorted, but I think NFPs are softer compared to NFJs. A while ago, an INFP poster told me he thinks he is too "blunt" for INFJs. Lol no. Every single INFP I've met IRL is more of a pacifist and less stubborn than I am. Maybe I'm getting this type completely wrong but I can't see how an INFP could possibly be too "blunt" for me.
> 
> There's no comparison between ENFJs and ENFPs as well. I think ENFJs can be tough and pushy AF compared to ENFPs, mainly due to Fe lead and terc Se.


Well NFPs have Te, so idk...Gohan is tougher as an INFP especially as SSJ2 than Deku INFJ. I love both characters btw.


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## Red Panda

witty said:


> Forget him his a troll 😆
> I knew before I followed through though 😄
> 
> don’t you see how many inconsistencies are in his arguments? He talks about random things like, unrelated 😂
> 
> also, I’m wondering if he’s taking his pills today. Not to sound offensive to anyone but the curiosity got to me.


He's right actually it's all in Jung's descriptions and come from those. Introversion is a defensive drive against the world with the need to control it, extraversion the opposite. Research hasn't used Jung's descriptions at all, they rely more on latter interpretations that mostly just use the same terminology and focus on sociability, not adaptability.


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## IDontThinkSo

Aiwass said:


> Jesus Christ dude, what do you think it is you're doing here? Being open to new ideas? lol
> You are defending your own POV very stubbornly, all the while claiming people who aren't like you ("bad introverts") are the stubborn and close-minded ones. Can't you see how ironic and how much of a paradox this is?


You seriously believe your ideas are new to me ? What else are you parroting but what I read ad nauseam for over a decade on the internet ? It's how a certainy is built that matters. There is no point being open to a belief I already refuted until I or someone finds a counterargument, the difference with introverts is how I won't wait for others to figure out my own inconsistencies and fix them no matter how butthurt I might be. That's why by the time you figure one out I already corrected myself 100 more times. It is not out of my stubborness that people can't find a counterargument but their own. My own is not about protecting my fallacies but standing against yours.


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## lecomte

The difference between Perception and Judgement is the same between low Conscientiousness and high Conscientiousness in the Big Five. Big Five "type" are strongly correlated to MBTI type according to personality database and with statistics law of large number make things obective and rights.

Since users of MBTI do not recognize spectrums, MBTI types are archetypal. So in general, an INFJ, as an archetype, would be seen very conscientious and an INFP very low. Conscientiousness is associated with bluntedness, industriousness and organization. You have to be very persistent to be Conscientious.
INFJ does not function the same way as an INFP. The way I see it, INFJ tend to see objectivity in words use by other and apply them as an universal rule and apply finalism to materiality. That's Ni-Fe.
On the contrary, I think, INFP tests experimentally what the others says to them, that's Ne-Si and if it appears its not true to them, they fill it or not in their Fi.

But, there is a but! The nature of INFP shadow the ESTJ is also pretty stubborn. Since Te is the four of the stack, we can be deadly stubborn, if you dig. At least I can be aha


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## Eren Jaegerbomb

Oh yeah, they certainly are, so I heard.... 









Aerrrr, in all seriousness um, I think so.

More rigid.


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## Electra

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Oh yeah, they certainly are, so I heard....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aerrrr, in all seriousness um, I think so.
> 
> More rigid.


🤭


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## MsMojiMoe

As an infp, idk enough about other types to compare. More interested in how my own mind works.

As for myself, I can say that im usually much more tactful than blunt. Well, with respectful ppl, I am. I want solutions. But sometimes yelling and being blunt is the only way some ppl get it, being nice doesn’t work in most cases and ppl. Actually that’s not true, it’s not the case with ppl who have human values.

If someone that I don’t like which is a lot of ppl, ( and I’m not under the the delusion that most ppl are good), I have no problem being blunt ( but they have do something I won’t be mean for any other reason like I having a bad day and accidentally blew up that would never happen) I have no issue with telling others I don’t like them, etc. 

And I don’t HIDE behind sarcasm, either. Straight truth is good enough. Hate ppl who play mind games.

Once I got fired for a flower shop bc this one customer would come in and buy a woman flowers for but he was cheating on his wife ( I know bc he told me, it’s amazing what ppl tell you, I guess he thought he was being cool.) I hate cheaters and the first time he came in I sold him some flowers to give to his mistress, and this actually bother me for days....I hate being push into things I’m against...so, the 2nd time he came in, I refused, and the manager got involved and of course I’m the worker, I mean slave, so I have to help this person be a liar or a cheater and overall scum of earth the way his treats his love ones...Now, bc I’m work in this shop I must become part of this chain but I broke my part in that chain, lots yelling and unkind things were being said right there on the store floor room, in the end I got fire ( I would have quit anyways), bc I won’t be part of the chain. I have no desire to be part of such disgrace of human character and to force ppl in schemes and I’m not suppose to care....im Not a robot, I will not go with the flow of Society if society is going to protect and force ppl into this disgusting behaviors. And I’m very blunt about it when it crosses my path.

i have no regrets.

so, who is more blunt....
does it really matter

what matters more is the intent of why you are being blunt

unless this is some contest....than if that is the case....sure your type can be more blunt. You can have that title. I don’t really want it esp. if there is no real meaning behind it  And in all fairness like I say in the beginning I do and usually i am tactful than blunt....I’m all about integrity. That’s the title I want.


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## WraithOfNightmare

With regards to NFJs being “harder”, in a way they can be “hard” from my perspective because sometimes we can have disagreements over me holding a particular line of thought that stems from my personal beliefs versus their inclination towards broader principles and what they see as “universal”. Typical Fi vs Fe. They also find me a little hard to pin down at times because of Ni vs Ne and the J vs P means I don’t tend to plan as well as they do and often lose stuff, don’t know what I’m doing.

However a healthy NFJ generally tends to appreciate my perspective a lot and they’re impressed by my ability to remember things (Si) and my relatively quick wit / drop of a hat sense of humor. They also see in me an ability to be independent and act based on what’s right without feeling guilt over whether I’m catering to the “greater” view, something that I feel is a bit more of a struggle for them.

Their ability to empathize and have a much easier time seeing different perspectives than I do, with a broader and more expressive range of feelings yet retaining a strong sense of doing what’s right and having the ability to talk about deep stuff is what makes them so complementary and so awesome to me.

Now SFJs on the other hand I feel as though they share an F with me but that’s about it. They generally don’t have the depth of NFJs despite sharing the F and J, and being SJs I feel as though while both us NFs and SFJs can be genuinely kind and helpful people, the description on Truity sums it up very well: That our core motives for doing so can be quite different.

For them they’ll go through many gestures and seem as though they’re there for you, but they’re not there WITH you and what they do is more out of principle / nature. From my experiences with SFJs they seem a lot more helpful on the surface but they lack that deeper level of understanding and ability to sympathize. Not saying NFs always do it well, I know for a fact that my tolerance threshold gets lower and lower with repeated offenses / if the other person I feel has violated one or several of my values, but it seems to me as though they’re less willing to get to the bottom of an issue if it’s not something their Si-Fe can understand.

They have a much more disengaged / disinterested quality to them despite being the caretakers in many people’s view. You try to express your concern for the greater state of affairs and they’ll shoot you down or be unable to see where you’re coming from. Not NFJs, who make me feel cared for in the small stuff while having their mind on the bigger questions as well.

For NFs on the other hand it’s usually out of a deeper sense of conviction and attachment and wanting to do our part, no matter how small it may be, to address the grievances we see.


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## Andy 8184

I've had an infj friend (confirmed, I had already suspected her type but I made her take the test anyway and she strongly agreed with the results) for years and she was less blunt than me tbh. She was more a of a "fuck people" type in private, but she was always polite in social situations and she didn't really care about different opinions. She tried being nice when criticizing people and could be a bit of a pushover but she was pretty firm and cold in her decisions when she felt someone had crossed the line (like when she decided to cut me out of her life, lol). But she's the only infj I know, so she doesn't represent everyone (I'm sure Hitler was quite different). 

On the other hand, I can't stay quiet even when I should. I've found myself in shouting matches with complete strangers before I even realize what I'm doing and even when I'm not angry I'm completely tactless (not deliberately though). I've seen people in this thread saying that infp's do not want to impose their moral values. If that's true then I'm definitely mistyped. If you know that something's right and you don't want to "impose" it then you're not a very good person. 

And it's not only me. I know a lot of people that appear to be fi doms. Half of them are very sweet, nice and accepting with a general type 9 aura. The other half are literal hell to deal with and I want nothing to do with them. 

INFJ's have more chances to succeed in life and actually do something useful tbh.


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## swedish_entx

I would like to re-open this thread as I was not satisfied with the answers. 

Thanks


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## taixfai

To be blunt, I find xNFJs kind of strange for feelers because, hmm, while they're passionate and easy to rattle, it's like they don't think about other people's feelings much. They don't seem entuned or concerned with how other people feel, meanwhile, they act free to accuse you of being that way. At least in the case of INFJ >_>


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## taixfai

swedish_entx said:


> I would like to re-open this thread as I was not satisfied with the answers.
> 
> Thanks


I'm curious, you say you're not satisfied with the answers here but what are your questions? What are you looking for?


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## WraithOfNightmare

I gotta say I notice this with less self-aware Fe users in general, NFJs and other types that use Fe. It’s like they’re more outwardly emotional and expressive in caring about people but once you get past a certain point with them you realize they don’t feel as strongly as they make it out to be. Less well-balanced ones I feel also tend to stick to a “script” of sorts for interacting with people and that frustrates me, an Fi-dom, to no end.

As soon as I go off-script they’re dumbfounded and don’t know how to respond. I notice this more with Fe-tertiary and Fe-inferior but sometimes Fe-dom / Fe-aux can be a bit like that too.


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## FreeKekistan

lecomte said:


> The difference between Perception and Judgement is the same between low Conscientiousness and high Conscientiousness in the Big Five. Big Five "type" are strongly correlated to MBTI type according to personality database and with statistics law of large number make things obective and rights.
> 
> Since users of MBTI do not recognize spectrums, MBTI types are archetypal. So in general, an INFJ, as an archetype, would be seen very conscientious and an INFP very low. Conscientiousness is associated with bluntedness, industriousness and organization. You have to be very persistent to be Conscientious.
> INFJ does not function the same way as an INFP. The way I see it, INFJ tend to see objectivity in words use by other and apply them as an universal rule and apply finalism to materiality. That's Ni-Fe.
> On the contrary, I think, INFP tests experimentally what the others says to them, that's Ne-Si and if it appears its not true to them, they fill it or not in their Fi.
> 
> But, there is a but! The nature of INFP shadow the ESTJ is also pretty stubborn. Since Te is the four of the stack, we can be deadly stubborn, if you dig. At least I can be aha


Such an excellent explanation, I never looked at the big five next to MBTI. The big five is very scientific. MBTI I look at more... esoteric. I know MBTI is not sci-fi, it's just that is somewhat loose, that people can easily lie and get weird results. But with the big five you get precise results. And unlike MBTI, it is used scientifically and is recognized as legit by most psychologists and sociologists.
I'm INFJ, but let's not focus on that, I'm interested in the J part. Definitely I need structure, plans, organization, follow through. I feel miserable if things are not solved or closed. I can't sleep, can't focus on anything except the task at hand.

I need to look a bit more into the big five. I did dabble with it in the past, got some results, was a mild conservative (as in, I scored somewhat high on all the values), I'm curious how much that is still there, it's been a few years. Big thanks for bringing the big five to my attention.

INFJs being "hard" (giggity) is probably and impression something gets by looking at a J following through. To follow through you need determination and direction. I can see how some answer a J would give would look rigid because it is very focused and doesn't allow for bending, because any bend is a distraction, which can get you lost in nonsense semantics, thus wasting your time with ideas that are not relevant to the task at hand.


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## thisisme

infj doesn't feel soft and squishy to me. they feel like they want to make sure you are acting appropriately to others, being kind when you "should be" etc.
(i should say, i don't know a lot of infjs anymore tho and might be unnecessarily biassed)


infp feels soft and sweet to me and nice even when others don't expect it...sweet on their own without prodding and generally just super compassionate and loving.

also infps can be super blunt. for fun or for shock value because being inappropriate makes them happy. etc

being blunt isn't the antithesis to being soft tho imo


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## ButIHaveNoFear

thisisme said:


> also infps can be super blunt. for fun or for shock value because *being inappropriate makes them happy*. etc


😂 Being inappropriate makes me pretty happy!


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## mia-me

Considering function theory, Ne's a softer function than Ni since its focused on possibilities and Ni is focused on probabililties. Also, the tert plays a relief to the dominant function, role. If you consider logical assessment to be hard, then an INFJ's Ti tert analytics can come across as harder than an INFP's Si tert.


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## lecomte

ButIHaveNoFear said:


> 😂 Being inappropriate makes me pretty happy!


I feel naked lol. I felt that on a spiritual level


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