# If Ni = vision, then why is ENTP (Ne dom) often called the Visionary?



## Santa Gloss (Feb 23, 2015)

On one hand, they're just words. But on the other hand, words are all we have to communicate with to describe a concept. So I'd like to understand this better. Does anyone know?


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## Owtoo (Aug 20, 2015)

From what I understand, I think both Ni and Ne can be "visionary"! The way these functions approach this is different though. I think I remember someone once saying (and I bought it) that it's almost like Ne _creates_ the vision and Ni _fine tunes_ it.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Ni is tunnel vision once the Ni has decided on which vision to focus on so if Ni made the wrong choice, people will think hes stupid, stubborn and tunnel visioned. 

Ne is broad scope vision that cannot focus or hone in on the correct information thats required so people see Ne as scatterbrained and indecisive.


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## Santa Gloss (Feb 23, 2015)

ENTJudgement said:


> Ni is tunnel vision once the Ni has decided on which vision to focus on so if Ni made the wrong choice, people will think hes stupid, stubborn and tunnel visioned.
> 
> Ne is broad scope vision that cannot focus or hone in on the correct information that's required so people see Ne as scatterbrained and indecisive.


I'll go along with that for a moment. If Ni = tunnel vision according to the above quote, then what function is in play when a Ne person drops the distractions, develops their long-term vision and focuses on it? Or, is MBTI theory saying that it is genuinely impossible for that to happen?


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## sprinkle (Feb 10, 2017)

A visionary sees possibilities (many pictures) of the future, which is Ne.

A vision is a picture of one destination, which is Ni.


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## Santa Gloss (Feb 23, 2015)

sprinkle said:


> A visionary sees possibilities (many pictures) of the future, which is Ne.
> 
> A vision is a picture of one destination, which is Ni.


I'm not opposed to your definitions. But based on this, should I conclude that Ni people are not visionaries because they see only one picture?

I'm not intentionally trying to be difficult. I think there's massive messiness in MBTI's definitions, word choice and theories. I wish there was a cleanup committee.


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## VagrantFarce (Jul 31, 2015)

Santa Gloss said:


> I'm not opposed to your definitions. But based on this, should I conclude that Ni people are not visionaries because they see only one picture?


I wouldn't say that precludes someone from being visionary. The intent with Ni is to coalesce thought into a singularity, one that then provides a trajectory to follow. That can sometimes lead to extraordinarily prescient or forward-thinking acts.

But it can make someone very close-minded.  That's the interesting paradox with those types that prefer Ni - the combination of a rather immense inner imagination, with a very "decided" & seemingly-unimaginative style of communication.


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## Owtoo (Aug 20, 2015)

Santa Gloss said:


> I'll go along with that for a moment. If Ni = tunnel vision according to the above quote, then what function is in play when a Ne person drops the distractions, develops their long-term vision and focuses on it? Or, is MBTI theory saying that it is genuinely impossible for that to happen?


I would like to think that MBTI theory never says "this is genuinely impossible". It's just giving a type of theoretical framework. I would say that an Ne user who is developing their long-term vision and focusing on it, can achieve a lot, but it might be notable that a single result of their idea(s) will still have a lot of different flavours to it, if that makes sense. Take a musician for example. A musician that happens to be an Ne user might come up with very versatile work (or a very versatile specific _piece_ of work), pulling from a lot of different places and influences, but at the same time you sort of know that it's them as you're listening. I would imagine they might also be pretty prolific.

I would imagine an Ni musician is more deliberate in their creation. They are probably more internally discerning about what works, what doesn't work, what goes with their idea, what doesn't go with their idea. They want to cut the crap, basically.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

They are able to come up with multiple possibilities (visions) at once, while Ni concentrates on one possible outcome and stays with it.
Also, Ne is broad in perspective, working with multiple viewpoints at once so it's something that others can see. Ni is totally subjective.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Because type nicknames are stupid. 

A lot of people already have a hard time embracing the MBTI because they feel it boxes people in, so when you add superficial titles to it, it just makes matters worse.


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## sprinkle (Feb 10, 2017)

@Santa Gloss

INFJ and INTJ can both be visionaries. BUT, even though they see possibilities, they may or may not do anything about it. An INFJ, for example, may see possibilities of things go wrong and avoid certain situation so that they can reach their destination faster. An INTJ may see potentials of a faster route and use plan B instead of plan A. 

ENTP and ENFPs are more likely to run many possibilities and experiments at the same time. At the end something will become fruitful. But, we really don't know what the outcome may be. The possibilities are endless.

I think we don't call INFJs and INTJs visionaries, not because they cannot see other possibilities. It's because there are better words to describe them.


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## DoIHavetohaveaUserName (Nov 25, 2015)

The term Visionary is the combined effect of all the 4 functions in ENTP (not just Ne).


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## umop 3pisdn (Apr 4, 2014)

Ni is considered more visionary because visionaries are generally seen to be in an _intimate_ relationship with what they intend to bring about. That is, they and their 'vision' are essentially the same thing, or at least they have an extremely vivid dialectical relationship, vision might even become the way they actualize their self-identity.

Ne isn't like this at all. That is to say that extroverted intuition, like all of the extroverted functions, actually tries to exclude _self_ from the equation. It sees possibilities, but 'self' is never found in relation to them. That's really all the difference means.

So it's not a statement about someone's strength of creativity or whatever. A visionary isn't necessarily more creative than a non-visionary. What marks it is more that visionaries both breathe life into their visions, and have life breathed into them by their visions. You'll never really hear Ne types talking about intuition like that, seeing intuition in that way is generally the province of Ni-Se types because it's the trait of introverted intuition to view and interpret intuition through the lens of _self_.

Obviously the word is polysemous, but one of the best way of explaining the queer sort of motivation that is sometimes associated with 'visionaries' is that self is bound up in what they see. It's why abandoning vision can feel like self-mutilation.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

I get the impression Jung would have termed the Ne dom as Visionary and the Ni dom as the Crank.

It's about the direction of the function. 

With Ne this is projected outwards into the world. The Ne dom sees where objects of the world have come from/are going. They see possibility and potential, and with this how to transform objects around them. It's this transformation that leads to one calling them the '_visionary_'. The guy who yearns for something new, inspires people to follow his idea, yet then seemingly abandons it in chase of another adventurous idea or possibility to discover. It's through developing their rational functions that allow them to form some personal integrity/consistency to stick to an idea and reap the fruits of their labor.

The Ni dom projects their intuition inwards. They too see possibility and potential however this is about their inner objects not the external world. They are more interested in how inner images arise, change and develop. Seeing where they have come from/where they are going. They are content in it's own aesthetic appeal. Other's aren't privy to their inner world, so aren't seeing their vision and thus have no reason to see the Ni dom as '_visionary_.' If one were to be privy what the may be faced with is something incomprehensible and makes no sense. It's only when the rational functions have been sufficiently develop will the Ni dom begin to apply their inner visions to the world.


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## Max (Aug 14, 2014)

Ne is the *visionary*.

Ni is the *final vision*.

Does that make sense to you?


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## princessJAY (May 25, 2011)

Santa Gloss said:


> I'll go along with that for a moment. If Ni = tunnel vision according to the above quote, then what function is in play when a Ne person drops the distractions, develops their long-term vision and focuses on it? Or, is MBTI theory saying that it is genuinely impossible for that to happen?


Ne as a cognitive function will _never_ stop seeing multiple possibilities in everything, being scattered and random and without focus. That is precise what it is meant to do, what it is good at, and what it wants to do.

For Ne-dom (or -aux to a lesser extent), developing long-term vision and focusing requires the rest of their function stack. Ti/Fi to bring internal consistency, direction of movement, and ways of doing things. Te/Fe to manifest results. Si to help with sticking through the ups and downs of interest vs. boredom. 

Until their other functions develop, young Ne-doms can be ridiculously scattered and random. They try my patience and tire _me_ out  And yet I'm pretty random and scattered myself, and can easily exhaust an Si-dom/aux. It's all a matter of degree.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Well, I've also seen INFJs referred to as "seers" as INTJs as "wizards" haha. And I think I've seen intuitive types of all kinds described as visionary or wanting to fulfill their visions... so I'd say Ni as an archetype (or stereotype) brings to mind a more esoteric/enigmatic type of visionary, while Ne is more of a "real-world" (for lack of a better term) visionary.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Here's a table of type nicknames which, for some reason doesn't even include the Visionary name for ENTP, but has visionary & prophet for both Ni dom types (and "Envisioner Mentor" for ENFJ) lol. So yeah, mixed messages I guess.

Descriptive Names & Mottoes of the 16 types


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## Monroe (May 13, 2016)

ENTP (also ENFP) have the amazing ability to change with new input rather than fight for the older vision. I think that counts for being a visionary in that the problem and equation do change now and again and you have to adapt to it while retaining that Intuitive far-reaching effect.


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