# Am I an ISFJ or INFJ?



## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

marblecloud95 said:


> Woah, detecting high levels of hyperactivity, you on meds?


I think she's just excited that she's figuring this stuff out.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

marblecloud95 said:


> Woah, detecting high levels of hyperactivity, you on meds?


I have an excitement for learning and, really, I'm not being hyperactive. I like to discuss but I don't like to come off as being mundane. If you knew me at all, you'd know it's usually fairly difficult to get me truly hyperactive.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> Food honestly depends on the person. I can see your sister being especially sensitive because of Si, but that's a bit of a far cry and really isn't that important either way. I will say that trying new experiences vs. her keeping the same diet is a difference between your Se and her Si. Se seeks out new experiences, Si stabilizes experience.


I've also been excited about moving houses. My sister dreaded it, said she hated having to adapt to a new home. As I've gotten older, this has diminished a touch. Probably because, ya know, now that I'm an adult I actually have to deal with the nasty realities/details of moving that I didn't have to when I was little.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I can't tell you definitively if you're an INFJ or not, but at the very least, it's pretty clear to me that you prefer intuition and feeling (most likely in that order), and I have no reason to doubt your introversion. As for the last letter, I've pretty much decided that it is irrelevant. It's not in Jung's original typology and it seems to me that it's really only there because Myers' mom had noticed it before Myers actually created the MBTI system. It seems a lot more behaviorist and subject to environment than Jung's theories were, and modern MBTI technicians don't do a great job actually explaining what the letter is supposed to represent.


Ah, you're discussing Judging and Perceiving, yes? I've always just heard those two described in looser, sometimes stereotypical terms. "Perceivers are hippies, Judgers are uptight scrunches." _Blah blah blah..._

By the way, do you have any book recommendations? I have one, this one and it helped understand the functions a bit more clearly. Not sure how reliable some of its "testing" strategies are. But it did help me determine that I was Extroverted Feeling and _most likely_ an Intuitive, but that wasn't for sure obviously.




KalimofDaybreak said:


> Yep, that's a fairly classic sensation/intuition conflict. My mother is an ISFJ; I've had similar talks very often.


Could my conflict between Ni and Si possibly be because I had so many Si-doms in my life? I probably talk about experiences and past memories more than the average INFJ because that's what my family talked about, so I had to blend in with them. I also had a close friend for a long time that loved talking about her family experiences, she was likely an ESFJ. I wanted to "blend in" with her as well so I would talk about my past experiences to entertain her further, though this wasn't always my favorite topic. I enjoyed listening to hers more than I did telling my own. Same with my family.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Another thing I relate to. xNFJs have a (somewhat annoying) tendency to try and "fix" people. It's a combination of Ni and F I think--we see how their behaviors will ultimately impact them in negative ways, so we try to fix that before it happens. It can make us lose sight of what's right in front of us, which is generally why xSFJs are a lot better at being empathetic. They don't perceive those things, they just focus on fixing the problem right now.


Yeah. xSFJ's are probably better at accepting people for who they are than xNFJ's are. I'll admit, I've been called out on trying to change people's behaviors both to meet my ideals for them and for what I think would be best for them. I know when I do it too.
I have a horrible curse of being way too idealistic with relationships. I have that "dreamy" way of interpreting how people should be and get a reality check when they're not what I was expecting. I'll likely be forever single because of this until I can learn to get out of my head some.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Ah, you're discussing Judging and Perceiving, yes? I've always just heard those two described in looser, sometimes stereotypical terms. "Perceivers are hippies, Judgers are uptight scrunches." _Blah blah blah..._


Yeah, it gets really annoying. Especially since my code is technically INFJ but I almost always score as INFP because my dominant function _is_ perception. But yeah, this is why people think that MBTI is just a zodiac; it gets oversimplified and after that it's meaningless.



SheWolf said:


> By the way, do you have any book recommendations? I have one, this one and it helped understand the functions a bit more clearly. Not sure how reliable some of its "testing" strategies are. But it did help me determine that I was Extroverted Feeling and _most likely_ an Intuitive, but that wasn't for sure obviously.


_Psychological Types_ by C. G. Jung (duh). At most bookstores, it's going to cost you about $20, but half.com usually has it for a good deal. I got mine for $7 (w/ shipping and handling).

_Personality Type: An Owner's Manual_ by Lenore Thomson. This one is a bit controversial and her model for the functions is a bit strange, but the approach she takes to talking about the functions is enlightening and she has some really good stuff in there about type and just being a good person based off your type.

_Gift Differing: Understanding Personality Type_ by Isabel Myers. I myself have (shamefully) not read this one yet, but it's rather essential if you are going to do any reading about MBTI.

There are other writers, too; Marie von Franz, J.H. van der Hoop come to mind (these two immediately followed Jung: von Franz was his protege and van der Hoop was a patient of Jung's if I am not mistaken). These two are also on my reading list. 

I've not read the book you linked to, but I will tell you one thing about Nardi. While I appreciate his work and I think it's rather groundbreaking, his view of the functions is that they are just that: function, conscious processes of the mind. He can be insightful, but in the end he is an empiricist and is interested in data he can collect. The Jungian idea of the functions, that they are mindsets or perspectives, not an actual process, conflicts with this, since there is no real way to empirically quantify them. Nardi can be helpful, but don't take his word as gospel.



SheWolf said:


> Could my conflict between Ni and Si possibly be because I had so many Si-doms in my life? I probably talk about experiences and past memories more than the average INFJ because that's what my family talked about, so I had to blend in with them. I also had a close friend for a long time that loved talking about her family experiences, she was likely an ESFJ. I wanted to "blend in" with her as well so I would talk about my past experiences to entertain her further, though this wasn't always my favorite topic. I enjoyed listening to hers more than I did telling my own. Same with my family.


Any extended contact with a person of any type is going to shape you (especially if you're an Fe-user ). So yes, I would say most likely. Talking about the past isn't necessarily Si in of itself, but being focused on that instead of the future would be a little more up that alley. (*cough* back in my day *cough*) When I was younger, I was a lot more focused on the past than I am now, partially for life circumstances and partially for the amount of S influence I had (literally, my entire mother's side is sensing except for myself, a cousin, and an uncle).



SheWolf said:


> Yeah. xSFJ's are probably better at accepting people for who they are than xNFJ's are. I'll admit, I've been called out on trying to change people's behaviors both to meet my ideals for them and for what I think would be best for them. I know when I do it too. I have a horrible curse of being way too idealistic with relationships. I have that "dreamy" way of interpreting how people should be and get a reality check when they're not what I was expecting. I'll likely be forever single because of this until I can learn to get out of my head some.


I know the feeling of being too idealistic. And yes, it's the getting out of the head that's trick with that. Another reason there should be an INxJ support group.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Give me an example of the kind of abstract concepts you like to talk about. Tell me the core truth of something.

ETA: I mean... check out this interview / this post.

David Bowie. Ni-dom. I thought lower Ni, until I watched more interviews.

The interview quoted in that ... is blah until about 6 minutes in, and then the Ni comes out in full force. Psychopomp is right -- Bowie has been waiting the entire interview to discuss SOMETHING like that. Something pure abstracting and remote and purely conceptual - the internet. The alien invading our lives. The symbol of rebellion and potential. Look how abstracting his language becomes. Look how the interviewer is clearly not understanding a word of it, is totally lost, and tries to bring him back to tangibles. Bowie is having none of it. That's Ni. Pure Ni.

Being creative is not Ni.
Daydreaming is not Ni.
Not being sentimental is not Ni.
Being intelligent is not Ni.

Ni is obscure, unattached, weird, symbolic, and impossible to relate. Ni art is Bowie and his Ziggy character. His music videos from the 1970's/80's where the audience thought, "Dude, what the hell does that even MEAN?"

There is a super low bar for "intuition" on PerC. You can cross it by not being a stick in the mud. But real INFJs are Bowie. And Yoko Ono. And people who are so utterly devoted to subjective impressionism that you catch them in a conversation and it turns into ... that.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Give me an example of the kind of abstract concepts you like to talk about. Tell me the core truth of something.
> 
> ETA: I mean... check out this interview / this post.
> 
> ...


I cannot watch the videos as something really funky is going on with my browser's plug in that makes some videos suddenly crash. But yes, perhaps you are correct. But now I'm left with more frustration. I think some abstractions confused me and I'm getting pissed with the lack of examples of what REAL cognitive functions look like in people and how it presents itself. When reading on perceiving functions it seems the only ones that make sense to me is Se. The rest? No idea. Fe and Fi make sense. Te and Ti was a touch harder for me to grasp at first. But I understand now.

If I don't get this MBTI crap put to rest for myself I'm going to scream.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

I think Bowie is ENFJ and Yoko Ono is something else. Ive heard INTP. Just because someone is weird and you can't relate doesn't mean theyre Ni dom.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

SheWolf said:


> I'm getting pissed with the lack of examples of what REAL cognitive functions look like in people and how it presents itself. When reading on perceiving functions it seems the only ones that make sense to me is Se. The rest? No idea. Fe and Fi make sense. Te and Ti was a touch harder for me to grasp at first. But I understand now.


But that's still looking at external behaviors to type, rather than how your brain processes information. Anyone can act like anything at any time for any reason -- it doesn't mean they are this or that type. 

The introverted functions are harder to grasp because they are specific to the person using them -- they are all impressionistic and abstract. So no one can describe Ni or Si to you, because they are both abstract and tied to individual perception. I use Si, but my Si is NOTHING LIKE the Si in my ISFJ friend. Yet, we both still use it. Reality is subverted through our Si, to create sensory impressions rather than Ni symbolic / conceptual impressions.

Actually, that's a good way to frame it: Si is sensory abstraction and impression, Ni is conceptual abstraction. 

Doesn't help, does it? I'm sorry, I'm abstracting myself at the moment. 

The fact that not once in the initial questionnaire you willingly led the conversation into abstraction leads me to think you're not high Ni. But if you wanted to show me some intuitive concept that excites you, I'm willing to keep talking.

Your daydreaming and enjoyment of thinking about what COULD BE instead of what IS struck me as very Ne. Not necessarily higher Ne, but Ne in general. That's the linchpin of Ne: not seeing what something is, but how it could be more idealized. ISFJs are not beyond this -- it is highly common in them. 



karmachameleon said:


> I think Bowie is ENFJ and Yoko Ono is something else. Ive heard INTP. Just because someone is weird and you can't relate doesn't mean theyre Ni dom.


You are right, that does not make them Ni.

However, their interviews and body of art all have that detachment / wildly concept-driven impressionism to them, which is indeed Ni... and much more common in Ni-doms than in Ni anywhere else in the placement stack. (Lana Del Rey uses Ni as well, but as an ISFP it's less important to her than Se-aesthetics in her work.)


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

@angelcat what about Edward Norton?
Bowie maybe.
Im still not sold on Yoko Ono


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

karmachameleon said:


> @angelcat what about Edward Norton?
> Bowie maybe.
> Im still not sold on Yoko Ono


Norton does strike me as a Ni-dom. I'm not sure he's Fe, though... might be Te in there. He is certainly insistent on carrying out his vision to its absolute conclusion. James Cameron is another high Ni user, though he might be ENTJ. The fact that he patted Kate Winslet on the back after nearly drowning on TITANIC and then told her to get back to work speaks to high Te... maybe higher than aux. By in large, I've found the NFJs are more stylistically weird than the NTJs. It's the Ni/Ti ruminating.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> The fact that not once in the initial questionnaire you willingly led the conversation into abstraction leads me to think you're not high Ni. But if you wanted to show me some intuitive concept that excites you, I'm willing to keep talking.
> 
> Your daydreaming and enjoyment of thinking about what COULD BE instead of what IS struck me as very Ne. Not necessarily higher Ne, but Ne in general. That's the linchpin of Ne: not seeing what something is, but how it could be more idealized. ISFJs are not beyond this -- it is highly common in them.


I guess you're somewhat right on the extent I'm interested in what could be. But I'm quite immersed in it. For example, my extreme interest in Witchcraft and Paganism and what "could be" diverted me from the Christian beliefs that were shoved down my throat as a child. I had a tendency to question _everything_ I was taught when learning about it. I never once fully agreed with my family's views on things but I would agree with them outwardly to keep the peace and I thought it was stupid to argue about it anyway.

Another "Intuitive" (I quote because it's likely stereotypical) is things along those lines, afterlife, aliens, etc. I often catch some people off guard because I want to talk about those strange things and I've noted that it makes people uncomfortable. I sense this quickly and much to my dismay, stop discussing it. But then people get offended when I "zone out" when you start talking about what your boyfriend said to you last night. I don't give two shits about your relationships. My sister says I can be rude in that manner, but I'm sorry. I JUST DON'T CARE.

Also, I'm always wondering if I'm actually Feeling dom/aux sometimes. I'm not affectionate with my family. My ISFJ sister is always saying things like "I love you," and constantly checking in with people's well-being and ugh... wanting to smother them with physical affection. I am uncomfortable with outward affection. I even wrinkle my nose when I see people kiss in movies or worse... in public. Yuck. When I was little I sometimes got chastised for accidentally saying things that hurt other's feelings. I do have a tendency to be a bit blunt with some people despite HATING conflict. Which is what made me assume I'm a Feeler. In my Enneagram post I was told I show strong 9 qualities because of my conflict-aversion but yet, when I'm upset, I create it. I hate crying in front of others. I view it as "weak" and I like to give off a tough exterior, but yet I sometimes find it impossible to hold it in. My emotions are so confusing to me, really. I feel things deeply and sometimes things I see in movies, songs, etc. can affect me but when it comes to sympathizing with others? Nah. Like one time my friend started talking about how her dog got put to sleep and started getting emotional with me I didn't feel anything. I did the whole Fe "Oh, I'm sorry..." type of thing but I didn't feel anything. Actually, I started worrying about if I'm some sort of heartless monster because my sister proceeded after she left to tell me how I should've done more. I even got an "Ashley, how can you be so heartless?" comment which struck me deep actually. I'm not heartless. At all. I'm not good at expressing my love for my family or friends, but you have no idea how much they mean to me.

I'd also like to note, it may be hard to type me honestly. I have anxiety (especially social) and depression. I was on medication for a long time to help control my emotional outbursts due to it. That can cloud typing as it causes my behavior to be erratic and not what's normal for me. I can't tell you a time when I didn't have it, either, because it's been something that has stuck with me.

I have another MBTI post here, as I posted a second one because last time I didn't get a decent answer. Might help. I swear to the Goddess, I will not stop until I put this to rest. :dry:


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> The fact that not once in the initial questionnaire you willingly led the conversation into abstraction leads me to think you're not high Ni. But if you wanted to show me some intuitive concept that excites you, I'm willing to keep talking.


Also, be patient with my Enneagram post if you so choose to read it. I have to make fun of myself some so I don't become too embarrassed, but I knew the only way I could get typed properly is if I was 100% honest and let it all hang out. I would never let a real-life soul outside of strangers on PerC see that damn thing.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

If we cant explain Ni then everyones view on it is going to be different lol.
The only thing we can go from is what Jung said i guess.
I went from the description on sociotype of IEI and it was all spot on except the poetry part


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

I want to put this here, because it's about Si:



Psychopomp said:


> It is essential to consider that Si is never rational thought, but PERCEPTION of what is. MBTI changed Si into something about tradition and the past, but Jung meant Si to mean Abstraction of Sensation. Namely, that in the perception of all sensory input, the Si would warp it all heavily through their psyche into something unrecognizable from objective reality, in order to fit into their subjective private world.
> 
> Just as Feeling is bound to disturb Thinking, objective Intuition is bound to disturb this subjective private world by injecting wild possibility into it. The Si, then, is bound to struggle to handle or to positively interpret possibility, and to see it as a monstrous thing sent to disturb that private world.
> 
> ...


And this:



Psychopomp said:


> I cannot grasp why MBTI changed Si into [memory or past reflection or tradition]. As has been said, Si is subjective - and I'll add abstract and inevitably eccentric.
> 
> It would be, in and of itself, disinterested in tradition. It is associated with tradition, perhaps, because unlike Pe and specifically Ne, it is uninterested in CHANGE.
> 
> ...


Si is not what most people think it is, nor what most people attribute it to.

And again, I offer you a way to start abstracting, I invite you to show me Intuitive -- and you don't. 

I'm thinking... sensor. 

Do you start abstracting / conceptually-driven conversations or do others pull you into them? 

When and if you do so, what are these conceptually driven conversations about?

You talk about loving abstract things, but what IS abstraction to you?



SheWolf said:


> I guess you're somewhat right on the extent I'm interested in what could be. But I'm quite immersed in it. For example, my extreme interest in Witchcraft and Paganism and what "could be" diverted me from the Christian beliefs that were shoved down my throat as a child. I had a tendency to question _everything_ I was taught when learning about it. I never once fully agreed with my family's views on things but I would agree with them outwardly to keep the peace and I thought it was stupid to argue about it anyway.


Sounds like me as a child. And as an adult. Doesn't necessarily indicate type. 

Outward agreement to keep the peace might be Fe. Or it might not.



> Another "Intuitive" (I quote because it's likely stereotypical) is things along those lines, afterlife, aliens, etc. I often catch some people off guard because I want to talk about those strange things and I've noted that it makes people uncomfortable. *I sense this quickly and much to my dismay, stop discussing it*. But then people get offended when I "zone out" when you start talking about what your boyfriend said to you last night. I don't give two shits about your relationships. My sister says I can be rude in that manner, but I'm sorry. I JUST DON'T CARE.


The afterlife and aliens are not... specifically... abstract concepts. 

How art is subversive and its grayness obscures it and not complete until you are absorbed into it, as Bowie would say, is an abstract stream of thought. 

Bolded is Fe. Fi doesn't really care that much if other people aren't interested when it gets excited about talking about its interests. (Cue me not listening to FP friend going on for hours about stuff she loves and I don't, and her literally not noticing that I'm zoned out.)



> Also, I'm always wondering if I'm actually Feeling dom/aux sometimes. I'm not affectionate with my family. My ISFJ sister is always saying things like "I love you," and constantly checking in with people's well-being and ugh... wanting to smother them with physical affection.


She's a Heart Enneagram. 2 maybe. I know an ISFJ just like her. I also know some cold, withdrawn, do not touch me ISFJs.



> I am uncomfortable with outward affection. I even wrinkle my nose when I see people kiss in movies or worse... in public. Yuck.


Not type related. Not feelings related. 



> When I was little I sometimes got chastised for accidentally saying things that hurt other's feelings. I do have a tendency to be a bit blunt with some people despite HATING conflict.


Don't we all. I was a notoriously frank child. Still 99% positive I'm Fe though.

Also, two of the most blunt people I have ever known in my life were Fe-doms. ESFJs. Fe doesn't automatically = I care, or I'm nice, or I'm polite.



> Which is what made me assume I'm a Feeler. In my Enneagram post I was told I show strong 9 qualities because of my conflict-aversion but yet, when I'm upset, I create it. I hate crying in front of others. I view it as "weak" and I like to give off a tough exterior, but yet I sometimes find it impossible to hold it in. My emotions are so confusing to me, really. I feel things deeply and sometimes things I see in movies, songs, etc. can affect me but when it comes to sympathizing with others? Nah. Like one time my friend started talking about how her dog got put to sleep and started getting emotional with me I didn't feel anything. I did the whole Fe "Oh, I'm sorry..." type of thing but I didn't feel anything. Actually, I started worrying about if I'm some sort of heartless monster because my sister proceeded after she left to tell me how I should've done more. I even got an "Ashley, how can you be so heartless?" comment which struck me deep actually. I'm not heartless. At all. I'm not good at expressing my love for my family or friends, but you have no idea how much they mean to me.


Thomas Cromwell in WOLF HALL is most likely an Enneagram 9 INTJ. You can be a 9 and be a feeler, or you can be a 9 and be a thinker. Enneagram doesn't indicate Feeler or Thinker in MBTI. 

Again, I relate. I tap in much easier to entertainment than real people, although I do admit that when a friend told he she had to put her dog to sleep, I cried. Because it was sad. I imagined how she felt. I know what it's like to lose a pet. But knowing how to comfort her with more than just hand-patting and I'm sorry? That is not my area of expertise, I'm afraid. 

That last line encompasses me in a nutshell. 

(For the record, I type as ISFJ... but a few friends are convinced I'm INTP. =P)



> I'd also like to note, it may be hard to type me honestly. I have anxiety (especially social) and depression. I was on medication for a long time to help control my emotional outbursts due to it. That can cloud typing as it causes my behavior to be erratic and not what's normal for me. I can't tell you a time when I didn't have it, either, because it's been something that has stuck with me.


My brother is a high functioning autistic with anxiety disorder on the side. It confuses his type, but he is INTP. Abstract reasoning, frustration at being unable to articulate his thoughts/ideas/feelings in tangible ways, and notorious for rabbit-trailing / going off topic. 



> I have another MBTI post here, as I posted a second one because last time I didn't get a decent answer. Might help. I swear to the Goddess, I will not stop until I put this to rest. :dry:


I'm inclined to say Sensor, overall. ISFX. There were a few times I got a sense of Se from you, but I don't know.

I'm going to tag @Psychopomp and ask him to read the first post. He may or may not answer, but he's probably the most knowledgeable typist on the forum and is pretty good at assessing individual functions at a glance.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Type me too while youre at it
type me thread (my first post is useless)
enneagram thread


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

@angelcat you probably hate this thread huh? http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/754346-how-did-you-know-you-were-infj-4.html


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

karmachameleon said:


> Type me too while youre at it
> type me thread (my first post is useless)
> enneagram thread


Quick read through first impression: ISFJ with a little bit of Ne.

Again, where's the Ni in anything you say?


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

angelcat said:


> Norton does strike me as a Ni-dom. I'm not sure he's Fe, though... might be Te in there. He is certainly insistent on carrying out his vision to its absolute conclusion. James Cameron is another high Ni user, though he might be ENTJ. The fact that he patted Kate Winslet on the back after nearly drowning on TITANIC and then told her to get back to work speaks to high Te... maybe higher than aux. By in large, I've found the NFJs are more stylistically weird than the NTJs. It's the Ni/Ti ruminating.


A good example of an Ni-dom director is Darren Aronofsky. The end of "The Fountain" is pure Ni.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Quick read through first impression: ISFJ with a little bit of Ne.
> 
> Again, where's the Ni in anything you say?


Idk. In my head? I dont know what Ni is and you said that we can't explain it so how would you know what it is and how would anyone know except Ni users? But i want to be SEI so thanks


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Even Ni users would probably be unaware of it because it's hard to grasp and it comes natural to them.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

mistakenforstranger said:


> A good example of an Ni-dom director is Darren Aronofsky. The end of "The Fountain" is pure Ni.


YES.

That entire movie is so Ni. (Who was I discussing that with lately?? Was it you? LOL)

The entire Hannibal series is Ni -- Ni characters, Ni conversations, Ni/Se aesthetics throughout. Loved their conversations about well tailored person suits. I laughed when one reviewer said it was basically snotty intellectualism / had no substance -- it did, but they didn't understand the weight and gravity of the conversations. 



karmachameleon said:


> Idk. In my head? I dont know what Ni is and you said that we can't explain it so how would you know what it is and how would anyone know except Ni users? But i want to be SEI so thanks


I know what it is. I know it when I see it. I'm just not sure how to translate years of research / exploration of what Ni is and what it does into written words. 

You strike me as low level TiNe -- wanting to bounce ideas about your type off other people and get their input on it. I think the suggestions of INTP for you are a bit ridiculous considering your prioritize relationship dynamics (romance!!) over impartial systems.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

angelcat said:


> YES.
> 
> That entire movie is so Ni. (Who was I discussing that with lately?? Was it you? LOL)
> 
> ...


Whenever im around my boyfriend who is entp i feel like he brings the Ne out of me so that makes sense. And yeah I used to think i was a thinker for a while since i don't really fit in with the girls i know, and im terribly bad at making deep( not superficial) connections with friends (and i consider myself smarter than most of them, i know that being a thinker doesnt equal being smart but that's how i thought atm )
And if im isfj that makes us duals aw


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## Tsubaki (Apr 14, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Funky MBTI in Fiction, I ADORE that blog. It's what finally helped me understand cognitive functions.


Sorry but most of the things on that blog just make me cringe XD (most of the typings that I've read are very wrong)
I don't find the description really accurate. It doesn't describe the functions but rather just different mindsets that don't have anything to do with MBTI -> you can prove me wrong if you want, I'm open for discussions


> The thing about my memory is this: *I can remember impressions and imagery and feeling a well but not specifics.* Example, when I brought my dog home. I love my dog dearly and I remember how she reacted when she first got home. I remember a vision of being in my brother's truck sitting in the back with my dad driving and my brother in the passenger seat and it was sunny when we traveled to pick her up. But that's about it. I remember when I laid eyes on her for the first time, how I cried because we bonded so instantly. But for the life of me, I don't remember what year it was or what day or anything. I know it was in August because I have a memory of asking my father when we did. My dad was an ISFJ, his memory was impeccable. But I can't tell you more than that.
> What's even worse? I don't even remember what day it was that my father passed. I know it was around the 20th of July?* I have no concept of time.* I think it's only been three years since he passed. My mom and sister however know exactly how long it has been and what day it was. I can't remember dates to save my life and I can literally do things like forget where I set my keys. I swear I had them in my hand just five minutes ago.....
> 
> Lol!


These two statements really scream Si to me. You always have to remember that an INFJ also has this inferior Se-thing going on. They'll still have a very selective attention span and their Se isn't really developed but it's one of the valued functions and that's what counts. Se is actually really good at remembering sensory details. When I went on a seaside stroll in Malta with an ISFP-friend, he started to talk about how interesting it is that there are little stickers with christian symbols everywhere on lamp posts and cars. Up to that point, I hadn't seen a single one.

As a person who values Si on the other hand, I have no idea about the stickers anymore, a veeeery faint idea about the order in which we visited places but mostly the impressions that I had. I remember that we were in the old capital and there was a stand where a guy sold sweets. It was a really hot day and I was kind of hungry but the atmosphere was still very pleasant. It's really hard to describe Si-experiences. I basically understand it as "the feeling that you get when you think about an event in the past". That's an impression. And Si creates those.

Ni also takes in information and processes it but the results are different. You also get some kind of "impression" but it's not of a concrete thing but about the future. Basically, if we compare Ne and Ni, Ne takes in all the possibilities as raw data and explores each of them with a judging function. Ni takes in only the impression of these present possibilities and you get a feeling about which possibility will really be relevant.

Another thing for the time-thingy: I've heard an interesting thing about that. "Ni has a timeline. It can go chronologically from the big bang, to the dinosaurs, to the modern age, to the future, just in a person's head. Ne can zoom out. It goes from the room, to the planet, to the solar system with all its moving parts, to the galaxy, just in the person's head"

Now a bit more for the concrete typing:


> Now, I'm NOT one to take off without any sort of planning (which tells me I'm not IxFP like I used to think I was.)


I'm an ENTP, plan many things that I do and hate being unprepared. Percievers aren't always running into the unknown with open arms.

Number 3 could maaaybe be a bit Ni-ish but not really.

Eeeeeh, I don't know. Some parts really seem Ni-ish, some seem Si-ish, but I see no clear evidence for any of the types. 

Another thing is that ISFJs can quite often be not really introverted at all. They tend to like people and don't have much trouble in social interaction while some INFJs are extremely hesitant to even talk to other people.

ISFJs also really love to use their Ne. so they can easily come off as INxPs. They are also easy to spont when they are in the grip of their inferior functions since they see a lot of dangers and bad things around them and get very pessimistic about the future.


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

@karmachameleon

Interesting. Nothing you said in your typing thread seemed like Si, as far as I remember. Has something changed?


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Si is not what most people think it is, nor what most people attribute it to.
> 
> And again, I offer you a way to start abstracting, I invite you to show me Intuitive -- and you don't.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you're probably right. Last night, I had a friend, I'm uncertain of his type, started RANDOMLY talking to me in what I deem as abstractions. _"Are you a flowing, changing being or one who encourages self suffering by resisting with a set of patterns and restricted beliefs?"_ Then he sputtered some stuff along the lines of Buddhism. I understood him, but it was irritating to me. That goes deeper though, as he proceeded to tell me about how I was living my life all wrong because I haven't converted to Veganism yet and I started to get pissed which has nothing to do with much. But yeah, that would likely indicate Sensing as I have zero tolerance for nonsense sometimes.

But, I can lead conversations about those strange things that I aforementioned, but as you stated, they're not exactly specifically abstract concepts.

As far as what abstractions mean to me, isn't abstraction itself subjective? Can one truly say what's an abstract concept and what's not? Because that's what abstraction is, something entirely unknown, unseen, and therefore can change form depending on the eyes that see it and the mouth that speaks it. In a very basic definition, abstraction is what cannot be seen. Someone may deem, say, the subject of dragons as an abstract, whereas someone might say gravity is abstract because it can't be seen. Another might be, "Why are humans so drawn to create something, only to see it destroyed when it becomes useless?" The answer to this is unclear, open for debate, and has no real answer. _It is unseen and non-tangible._. That, my friend, is an abstraction in my opinion. My sister thinks I'm abstract because I think deeply about things like the afterlife, but you think that this is not an abstract concept. Once again, I repeat, _abstract is just that and it will change depending on the person._
It's almost funny, really, how the definition of abstract _is_ abstract. Can even lean on being a paradox. Heheheh...



angelcat said:


> Bolded is Fe. Fi doesn't really care that much if other people aren't interested when it gets excited about talking about its interests. (Cue me not listening to FP friend going on for hours about stuff she loves and I don't, and her literally not noticing that I'm zoned out.)


See, now, I used to be really bad at this. I once recall trying to get a friend to be as into my new video game as I was. But she was not having it. I saw she wasn't interested. But I didn't give a shit _until_ she ratted me out to my sister who made me quit and do what she wanted which angered me beyond all measure. I would get told I needed to do what my friend wanted when they were over, but ugh, I didn't want to. I'm somewhat better about this now obviously, because I don't want to be a rude person, but it still irritates me. I can see when a person is zoning out to me but I don't quit because it disinterests _them_, but rather because they've offended me. And I probably won't be hanging out with that person again     Bye Felicia.




angelcat said:


> She's a Heart Enneagram. 2 maybe. I know an ISFJ just like her. I also know some cold, withdrawn, do not touch me ISFJs.


That's more me. It depends. I may want a hug, or I may stab you if you touch me when I'm upset. Depends on my mood flux    



angelcat said:


> Thomas Cromwell in WOLF HALL is most likely an Enneagram 9 INTJ. You can be a 9 and be a feeler, or you can be a 9 and be a thinker. Enneagram doesn't indicate Feeler or Thinker in MBTI.
> 
> Again, I relate. I tap in much easier to entertainment than real people, although I do admit that when a friend told he she had to put her dog to sleep, I cried. Because it was sad. I imagined how she felt. I know what it's like to lose a pet. But knowing how to comfort her with more than just hand-patting and I'm sorry? That is not my area of expertise, I'm afraid.
> 
> ...


My best friend's father actually just passed away and I've lost my father very unexpectedly too. But I didn't cry with her. She called me on the phone, on the verge of tears (she's a very hardened person, but this did her in obviously)
I mostly just listened to her, and I briefly mentioned that I know what it was like to lose a father. Especially since both of us were very close to our dads, I almost suspect that's why she came to me. She knew I'd understand. But, I didn't want to be selfish or pretend like I knew exactly what she was feeling, because I don't. Her dad died of cancer, mine of sudden heart attack. He died in a hospital right before her eyes, I found mine dead on the floor in my home. While close, our relationships with our fathers were still different. I cried with my family when my dad died, because they all were going through the same thing as me and had the same perception/relationship with him as I did. My friend? No. I also didn't know her father very well and I felt it would be selfish of me to cry over him.
While on the subject of my dad, the funeral was hell for me for this reason: people coddling me and those who barely knew my dad crying when they looked at me. I knew I shouldn't have been like that, but it felt fake. Now, when my dad's coworkers cried I cried with them because they actually DID know my dad well. When they talked about him I would cry, because yup, they spot-on described my father.
I can strongly relate to Fi in the sense that if I haven't been through something, it's hard for me to relate. I'm more sympathetic to those who have lost pets now, because I had to see three put down in the last couple of years.

Also, this is totally unrelated to MBTI most likely, or it could be a key, I hate kids. Why? I can't relate to them and have no experience with them because I was basically an only child (siblings are 20+ years older than me) I was also very mature for my age. I wasn't like most kids. Animals, though? Love them. This bewilders my sister, who literally can't grasp how I can't be sensitive to them (or anyone for that fact.)



angelcat said:


> I'm inclined to say Sensor, overall. ISFX. There were a few times I got a sense of Se from you, but I don't know.


If you don't mind my asking, in what ways specifically did you see Se _(Hehehe.. "see Se")_

Also, I do appreciate you taking the time to deal with my exhaustible nature and helping me. I'm persistent persistent.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Apple Pine said:


> @karmachameleon
> 
> Interesting. Nothing you said in your typing thread seemed like Si, as far as I remember. Has something changed?


I dont know. I dont know what Si is and I don't know what Ni is. Because of that i tend to trust outsiders opinions too much (not kitty tho because she doesnt seem like she knows her shit) and now im confused. lol


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

where is jesus when u need him


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Again, where's the Ni in anything you say?


I can 100% relate to you, Angel, in the fact I grow tired of seeing all these people say they're INFJ and they're not. THAT'S why I'm here. I refuse to be one of those people AND I don't want to be living a lie in anyway.

But I won't take guesswork either. I want proof of my type with no bullshit. I am really about fed up with it in general because I have gotten to where I don't know what's stereotype and what's actually typical of a function. I can't even trust some books on the subject. I'll read some source and have one person say it's credible and the next say it's full of shit. Gah....

Like Ni being super mystical in the sense that it can reveal to you the meaning of life or looking at someone and seeing where their future will be in 20 years. Or Si holding onto everything it's taught and accepts it stupidly. Makes me want to rip my hair out sometimes.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> where is jesus when u need him


*WHEEZES*

That was funny. XD THIS POST NEEDS JESUS.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

SheWolf said:


> Yeah, you're probably right. Last night, I had a friend, I'm uncertain of his type, started RANDOMLY talking to me in what I deem as abstractions. _"Are you a flowing, changing being or one who encourages self suffering by resisting with a set of patterns and restricted beliefs?"_ Then he sputtered some stuff along the lines of Buddhism. I understood him, but it was irritating to me. That goes deeper though, as he proceeded to tell me about how I was living my life all wrong because I haven't converted to Veganism yet and I started to get pissed which has nothing to do with much. But yeah, that would likely indicate Sensing as I have zero tolerance for nonsense sometimes.
> 
> But, I can lead conversations about those strange things that I aforementioned, but as you stated, they're not exactly specifically abstract concepts.
> 
> ...


Abstract to me is something intangible -- a concept. Transformation, for example. Transcendence of self into the holistic unity of the universe in order to aspire to a higher plain. Etc.

Like... have you ever seen Hannibal or Game of Thrones?

Hannibal's conversations with his female therapist are completely Ni -- about person suits, and concepts, rarely about facts. Stuff like "You wear a very well tailored person suit," and "You and I speak to one another from behind the veil." That, to me, is Ni-abstraction. 

Like: 

Bedelia: What have you done, Hannibal?
Hannibal: I've taken off my person suit.
Bedelia: You let them see you.
Hannibal: I let them see enough.

"You cannot function as an agent of friendship for a man who is disconnected from the concept ...as a man who is disconnected from the concept."

"I've had to draw a conclusion based on what I glimpsed through the stitching of the person suit that you wear. And the conclusion I've drawn is that you are dangerous."

Game of Thrones has several Ni's in it -- Melisandre is one, Littlefinger is another, Lord Varys is a third. They too engage in these Ni-concept debates -- talking about the nuances of power, the shifting of the proverbial wind. It's almost never sensory, or personal, or tangible, but they're dealing in high concepts. 

Like:
Melisandre: [to Gendry] Death is coming for everyone and everything. The darkness will swallow the dawn. 

“Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night.” 



"Death by fire is the purest death." 
―Melisandre[src]

"Look to your sins Lord Renly, the night is dark and full of terrors." 
―Melisandre to Renly Baratheon[src]

Oh, and my personal favorite Ni-conversation:

Petyr Baelish: "Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over until we forget that it's a lie." 

Varys: "But what do we have left once we abandon the lie? Chaos, a gaping pit, waiting to swallow us all." 

Petyr Baelish: "Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb; they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is." 



> See, now, I used to be really bad at this. I once recall trying to get a friend to be as into my new video game as I was. But she was not having it. I saw she wasn't interested. But I didn't give a shit _until_ she ratted me out to my sister who made me quit and do what she wanted which angered me beyond all measure. I would get told I needed to do what my friend wanted when they were over, but ugh, I didn't want to. I'm somewhat better about this now obviously, because I don't want to be a rude person, but it still irritates me. I can see when a person is zoning out to me but I don't quit because it disinterests _them_, but rather because they've offended me. And I probably won't be hanging out with that person again     Bye Felicia.
> 
> That's more me. It depends. I may want a hug, or I may stab you if you touch me when I'm upset. Depends on my mood flux
> 
> ...


Is TeFi off the table?

This sounds Fi, but not necessarily high Fi. More like lower Fi.



> Also, this is totally unrelated to MBTI most likely, or it could be a key, I hate kids. Why? I can't relate to them and have no experience with them because I was basically an only child (siblings are 20+ years older than me) I was also very mature for my age. I wasn't like most kids. Animals, though? Love them. This bewilders my sister, who literally can't grasp how I can't be sensitive to them (or anyone for that fact.)


ISTJ?



> If you don't mind my asking, in what ways specifically did you see Se _(Hehehe.. "see Se")_
> 
> Also, I do appreciate you taking the time to deal with my exhaustible nature and helping me. I'm persistent persistent.


Vague impressions, which are gone now. Too many secondary conversations happening while I procrastinate about working. 



karmachameleon said:


> I dont know. I dont know what Si is and I don't know what Ni is. Because of that i tend to trust outsiders opinions too much (not kitty tho because she doesnt seem like she knows her shit) and now im confused. lol


Confusion is normal. Just calm down and give it time. Learn as you go.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Confusion is normal. Just calm down and give it time. Learn as you go.


I just want to know my type 100% NOW and be over with it. I'm more of a result person than a process person.
I relate to the IEI descriptions. Idk what else to go from.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Tsubaki said:


> Another thing is that ISFJs can quite often be not really introverted at all. They tend to like people and don't have much trouble in social interaction while some INFJs are extremely hesitant to even talk to other people.


Nope. This is something that I think can be chalked up to the individual. My sister is definitely an ISFJ, but she doesn't give a rat's patootie about hanging out with friends and having fun like I do. I've heard the opposite about INFJ's, they can be masked as an extrovert. This seems like minutia that shouldn't account for type.



Tsubaki said:


> I'm an ENTP, plan many things that I do and hate being unprepared. Percievers aren't always running into the unknown with open arms.


Apparently J and P weren't even in Jung's original typology, so....


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

@angelcat apparerently i got IEI from this blind reinin dichotomies (i have no idea what that is) quiz too: http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/747081-reinin-dichotomies-blind-description-test-6.html#post24856658

ill just post it here


> IEI, with:
> 
> CAREFREE (rather than Farsighted) = Found in normative ENxx's as well, so indicative of a possible "CONTACT" pole of the Contact/Ignoring dichotomy of the DCNH subtype system.
> STRATEGIC (rather than Tactical) = Found in normative xNxj's as well, so indicative of a possible "TERMINATING" pole of the Initiating/Terminating dichotomy of the DCNH subtype system.
> ...


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

karmachameleon said:


> I just want to know my type 100% NOW and be over with it. I'm more of a result person than a process person.
> I relate to the IEI descriptions. Idk what else to go from.


IEI = MBTI INFJ, correct?

Ni-doms are... what I posted earlier. If you can't communicate on that level and do not think in that manner of conceptual abstraction, you are not a Ni-dom.

Anyone can relate to any description. Hell, I relate to the IEI and EII descriptions too, but I'm no INF anything. (I'm a highly creative artist type, which correlates with most Ni descriptions.)

In my experience, Ni-doms are the most ruthlessly pushing types there are in terms of aggressive fronting of ideas. Also, they will spend YEARS pondering things. For as long as I have known him, my INTJ still brings up the same conversations over and over... it's because he literally cannot and will not stop thinking about it until he reaches an absolute truth on the topic -- which comes from no external source, but his own perceptions. 

I, being Ne meanwhile, gave that topic a decent brush-over, reached a conclusion, and moved on to the next exciting idea.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Game of Thrones has several Ni's in it -- Melisandre is one, Littlefinger is another, Lord Varys is a third. They too engage in these Ni-concept debates -- talking about the nuances of power, the shifting of the proverbial wind. It's almost never sensory, or personal, or tangible, but they're dealing in high concepts.


I have a tendency to speak in metaphors sometimes. Not to the extent the Ni-doms in Game of Thrones do though. I once held an entire conversation with my friend about how, _"I am like rose. I seem inviting and vibrant, but when you go to pluck me, my thorns will cut you and you'll never want to touch me again. Then, I will have to live with the fact that my thorns have your blood stained on them."_

I do this so very often. I took note of how last night even I explained to a friend that I was like _"A bird with clipped wings. I look to the sky where I belong, but I cannot take off. But here on Earth, I am awkward, as my feet were not meant to tread ground but rather skip about it. How long before I am swallowed by a cat because I cannot fly away?"_



angelcat said:


> ISTJ?


Ugh. Maybe. I resent most of the Te-users as I've had many bad interactions with them over the internet of course. They view me as irrational. Especially INTJ's. God they piss me off sometimes. But ya know, I could be one very special ISTJ.



angelcat said:


> Vague impressions, which are gone now. Too many secondary conversations happening while I procrastinate about working.


Bahahaha. Yeah, this thread took a nosedive to the darkest bowels of MBTI hell in 0-100 real quick :') SORRY!


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Game of Thrones has several Ni's in it -- Melisandre is one, Littlefinger is another, Lord Varys is a third. They too engage in these Ni-concept debates -- talking about the nuances of power, the shifting of the proverbial wind. It's almost never sensory, or personal, or tangible, but they're dealing in high concepts.


I have a tendency to speak in metaphors sometimes. Not to the extent the Ni-doms in Game of Thrones do though. I once held an entire conversation with my friend about how, _"I am like rose. I seem inviting and vibrant, but when you go to pluck me, my thorns will cut you and you'll never want to touch me again. Then, I will have to live with the fact that my thorns have your blood stained on them."_

I do this so very often. I took note of how last night even I explained to a friend that I was like _"A bird with clipped wings. I look to the sky where I belong, but I cannot take off. But here on Earth, I am awkward, as my feet were not meant to tread ground but rather skip about it. How long before I am swallowed by a cat because I cannot fly away?"_



angelcat said:


> ISTJ?


Ugh. Maybe. I resent most of the Te-users as I've had many bad interactions with them over the internet of course. They view me as irrational. Especially INTJ's. God they piss me off sometimes. But ya know, I could be one very special ISTJ.



angelcat said:


> Vague impressions, which are gone now. Too many secondary conversations happening while I procrastinate about working.


Bahahaha. Yeah, this thread took a nosedive to the darkest bowels of MBTI hell in 0-100 real quick :') SORRY!


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

angelcat said:


> IEI = MBTI INFJ, correct?


In terms of functions, yeah pretty much




angelcat said:


> In my experience, Ni-doms are the most ruthlessly pushing types there are in terms of aggressive fronting of ideas. Also, they will spend YEARS pondering things. For as long as I have known him, my INTJ still brings up the same conversations over and over... it's because he literally cannot and will not stop thinking about it until he reaches an absolute truth on the topic -- which comes from no external source, but his own perceptions.


hahaha thats EXACTLY what i do and I annoy the shit out of family members when I do that. And it annoys me when theyre like "can we please talk about something else".
I get OBSESSED with ideas, like this one about my type, ive been thinking about it for over a year constantly, and never being satisfied with what i came up with(or others), except for maybe like a day. But then the next day im like "but wait, what about this thing? nah that cant be my type." 
I can talk about the same subject for months.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Woah. Sorry. No idea why that posted twice????


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

What i just said may be a little contradictory to the "result type person" but i i want to find the truth and be sure of it because i think 1 year is a bit too much to contemplate about something like this, and im driving the people around me a little insane, + i could be doing other, more useful stuff but i dont because im too caught up in this topic.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

karmachameleon said:


> hahaha thats EXACTLY what i do and I annoy the shit out of family members when I do that. And it annoys me when theyre like "can we please talk about something else".
> I get OBSESSED with ideas, like this one about my type, ive been thinking about it for over a year constantly, and never being satisfied with what i came up with(or others), except for maybe like a day. But then the next day im like "but wait, what about this thing? nah that cant be my type."
> I can talk about the same subject for months.


So do Si-doms. 

But Ni is searching for something Si is not. Si merely enjoys whatever it is; Ni is taking in an insane amount of conceptualized information and slowly filtering through it to find one conclusion that will forever define their life.

I guess what I'm beating around the bush to say is -- you have not ruthlessly shaken me down for my suggestions and ideas the way I'm accustomed to interrogations by Ni's.


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## Tsubaki (Apr 14, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Nope. This is something that I think can be chalked up to the individual. My sister is definitely an ISFJ, but she doesn't give a rat's patootie about hanging out with friends and having fun like I do. I've heard the opposite about INFJ's, they can be masked as an extrovert. This seems like minutia that shouldn't account for type.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently J and P weren't even in Jung's original typology, so....


What makes you so sure that your sister is an ISFJ?
Also, it's often good to take a step back from the situation and look at it from a very blunt and obvious perspective. Of course, there could be for example an ESTP who loves to stay at home and draw fantasy creatures all day long but the natural instincts of an ESTP usually don't suggest that. And I have no idea why some people claim that Ni-doms can look extroverted. Ni is basically the most introverted function that one could imagine.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

angelcat said:


> So do Si-doms.
> 
> But Ni is searching for something Si is not. Si merely enjoys whatever it is; Ni is taking in an insane amount of conceptualized information and slowly filtering through it to find one conclusion that will forever define their life.
> 
> I guess what I'm beating around the bush to say is -- you have not ruthlessly shaken me down for my suggestions and ideas the way I'm accustomed to interrogations by Ni's.


So now you changed your mind all of a sudden. hah. Anyways i have yet to find someone who will talk about stuff forever like i do. Except one INTJ i met through an mbti group. And i know si doms.

And idk rly what the last part meant, im not that great at english


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

@Apple Pine help


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

karmachameleon said:


> I dont know. I dont know what Si is and I don't know what Ni is. Because of that i tend to trust outsiders opinions too much (not kitty tho because she doesnt seem like she knows her shit) and now im confused. lol


Yea, these 2 are tricky ones.

How do you feel about Ti or Se?



karmachameleon said:


> So now you changed your mind all of a sudden. hah. Anyways i have yet to find someone who will talk about stuff forever like i do. Except one INTJ i met through an mbti group. And i know si doms.
> 
> And idk rly what the last part meant, im not that great at english


She did because nothing in your thread really strikes as strong Si or Ni(especially Si, no Si at all), so vague opinion on which you prefer. lol

edit: nvm, I should have read all the posts.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> I guess what I'm beating around the bush to say is -- you have not ruthlessly shaken me down for my suggestions and ideas the way I'm accustomed to interrogations by Ni's.


Perhaps my ever-so irritating "friend" is a Ni user. All I ever get from him is how I'm living my life wrong and my ideas are dumb. :')
If we start talking about any sort of philosophy, we will be at each other's throats. Unfortunately, that's all he wants to talk about sometimes. It's not that I don't understand him or even think what he's saying is interesting, but it becomes a problem when you start pushing that ideal on me. Last night we fought and he was lucky he wasn't in front of m face, I would have slapped him silly. I should control my anger...

Nah.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm more interested in the theory / concept of it / thinking about the functions than I am great at seeing them in people, particularly online through conversation. I'm open to being wrong. Ne sees multiple possibilities and interpretations, so when I intrude on a thread like this I'm more interested in correcting information that is too stereotypical and/or narrow / has nothing to do with the function it is attributed to, and more inclined to offer suggestions and/or examples of functions and try to let people draw their own conclusions than I am to flat out tell you -- "You're this type."

If you're expecting that from me, it won't happen. Mine is a more hands-off theoretical approach. To know your type, you have to get a sense of the functions and their interactions and get a sense of how your brain processes information / how you first interact with the world. Is it through people-dynamics? Sensory information? Conceptual possibilities? External organization? Etc.

I'm like Yoda.

Share information, he does.
Tell you anything directly, he does not.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Apple Pine said:


> Yea, these 2 are tricky ones.
> 
> How do you feel about Ti or Se?
> 
> ...


I think i use Ti and what i think Se is is "being in the moment, using your 5 senses blabla" and thats something everyone does so i dont rly understand it. Im definietly not an Se dom because i miss details and tend to be in my own head a lot. I do relate to the descriptions of inferior se (though idk how legit that is) like being sensitive to sounds and being depressed when stuff is "ugly". when im around people and there is loud noise especially sudden, which i expect, i get anxious.
I like doing sensory stuff though like partying and being in the middle of exciting stuff, riding fast vehicles, playing instruments especially drums. One thing ill never understand is ASMR


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> I'm more interested in the theory / concept of it / thinking about the functions than I am great at seeing them in people, particularly online through conversation. I'm open to being wrong. Ne sees multiple possibilities and interpretations, so when I intrude on a thread like this I'm more interested in correcting information that is too stereotypical and/or narrow / has nothing to do with the function it is attributed to, and more inclined to offer suggestions and/or examples of functions and try to let people draw their own conclusions than I am to flat out tell you -- "You're this type."
> 
> If you're expecting that from me, it won't happen. Mine is a more hands-off theoretical approach. To know your type, you have to get a sense of the functions and their interactions and get a sense of how your brain processes information / how you first interact with the world. Is it through people-dynamics? Sensory information? Conceptual possibilities? External organization? Etc.
> 
> ...



Which sucks. Because, unfortunately that is sort of what I am wanting.
How does one even go about typing themselves???? I know it's no easy endeavor, but I know I'm looking at all the wrong things. How do you even know what your cognitive processes are anyway? They're in your head.


This is how I am currently feeling right now: 






:')


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Oh about Ti: I read this:


> Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point.


which i relate to but it makes me frustrated when i cant find the right words to express what im thinking in my head , and thats why i could never do poetry.


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

karmachameleon said:


> I think i use Ti and what i think Se is is "being in the moment, using your 5 senses blabla" and thats something everyone does so i dont rly understand it. Im definietly not an Se dom because i miss details and tend to be in my own head a lot. I do relate to the descriptions of inferior se (though idk how legit that is) like being sensitive to sounds and being depressed when stuff is "ugly". when im around people and there is loud noise especially sudden, which i expect, i get anxious.
> I like doing sensory stuff though like partying and being in the middle of exciting stuff, riding fast vehicles, playing instruments especially drums. One thing ill never understand is ASMR


Alright. You are definitely Ti user, as you are on Fe/Ti, but do you feel you could be Ti dom, or you think you are rarely systematic, logical? When you try to explain something, do you tend to talk in impressions, and struggle when it comes to explaining them? INFJs tend to often contradict themselves, ISTPs are more to the point, and are more consistent while arguing. 

How would you answer these questions? :

How do you explain fractions on the dial of the clock?
What is a rule? What rules do you have to follow?


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

SheWolf said:


> Which sucks. Because, unfortunately that is sort of what I am wanting.
> How does one even go about typing themselves???? I know it's no easy endeavor, but I know I'm looking at all the wrong things. How do you even know what your cognitive processes are anyway? They're in your head.


I know. I'm sorry. I just... don't want to be _wrong_. 

I actually HIGHLY advise looking at the extroverted functions for guidance, because they are not impressionistic or individualistic or subjective it's easier to spot them in yourself and others. If you can understand those, you'll have an automatic type axis in terms of cognition and you'll be on your way. 

I typed as INXJ until I understood what Ne actually is -- ever-expanding, seeing opposing arguments as equal in validity, disinterest in something once there is no further potential to expand upon it, the free discussion and trade of ideas and concepts, more skimming the surface of intuition than plumbing the depths, etc, and then eventually came to comprehend Si. But knowing what Ne is, I recognized it in myself -- much as I recognized Fe.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> I know. I'm sorry. I just... don't want to be _wrong_.
> 
> I actually HIGHLY advise looking at the extroverted functions for guidance, because they are not impressionistic or individualistic or subjective it's easier to spot them in yourself and others. If you can understand those, you'll have an automatic type axis in terms of cognition and you'll be on your way.
> 
> I typed as INXJ until I understood what Ne actually is -- ever-expanding, seeing opposing arguments as equal in validity, disinterest in something once there is no further potential to expand upon it, the free discussion and trade of ideas and concepts, more skimming the surface of intuition than plumbing the depths, etc, and then eventually came to comprehend Si. But knowing what Ne is, I recognized it in myself -- much as I recognized Fe.


Ugh. Well, I'm half tempted to give up. I just don't know. It's giving me a headache.

But I can't just forget about this. I want to know, but have no real means of determining it. I'm willing to do just about anything at this point. I have zero ability to let things I'm interested in just "be."

I saw you mentioned about how people actively engage in their environment on first instinct? Hm. I don't know how to recognize functions. They sound perfectly fine on paper, but in real life? Nah brah, it ain't that simple!

Acting in a crisis, for example, I bolted. I mean RAN. When I was a girl and ran away when the boy had a seizure, it was because I didn't want to see it. I couldn't handle it emotionally, I don't think? When I heard my mom dial 911, I ran again because I can't handle dealing with that emotion. I'm trying to think deeper about the questions in my last MBTI post to determine my _motivations_ behind doing the things that I do. Isn't that a key thing, too?


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

SheWolf said:


> Ugh. Well, I'm half tempted to give up. I just don't know. It's giving me a headache.
> 
> But I can't just forget about this. I want to know, but have no real means of determining it. I'm willing to do just about anything at this point. I have zero ability to let things I'm interested in just "be."
> 
> ...


Yes, motivation is crucial. 

Running away -- like, LITERALLY running away -- from situations that trigger your emotions is HIGHLY suggestive of Fi. Fi has to go away, and separate itself from its environment, in order to process what it is feeling. 

Like... in the last Star Wars movie, when Rey had to run into the woods and get away from the intensity of what she just saw in her Force vision, in order to deal with her emotions and find herself -- that's Fi. 

Fe and Ti would be more engaged in feeling in the present.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Yes, motivation is crucial.
> 
> Running away -- like, LITERALLY running away -- from situations that trigger your emotions is HIGHLY suggestive of Fi. Fi has to go away, and separate itself from its environment, in order to process what it is feeling.
> 
> ...


Oh my gods, thank you, thank you, thank you! I related to Rey *so* much in that moment. I remember thinking "Yeah... That's what I would do too. :/"

I LITERALLY RAN AWAY. LITERALLY. When that boy had a seizure I BOLTED outside and quivered on my porch. 

When my mom called 911 with my dad, I _literally_ sprinted as fast out the door as my legs could take me to the edge of my yard since it was in the country. In fact, the only person that got me inside was a neighbor I'd never met before who was compassionate enough to see me in a fix coax me inside. I was a mess when she asked me what happened, to which I replied, _"I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW! MY DAD WAS ON THE FLOOR, HE HAS A BAD A HEART AND I JUST LEFT MY MOM IN THERE."_ with tears POURING down my face and shaking like a freezing chihuahua.

When my mom had her stroke I dashed into my room and slammed the door, leaving my sister (who handled the situation VERY well and stayed right beside my mom while calmly talking to the operator on the phone. This surprised me, because my sister always said she doesn't do well in a crisis.)


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

This might be suggestive of Fi-dom.

Are there other ways you relate to Rey?

Do you find that you are something of a jack of all trades -- able to pick up different things fairly quickly?

Or do you tend more to try out different things and maybe struggle a little at first but become better with practice?


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

This thread strikes me by the intense, almost helpless reliance on the appearance of things in order to comprehend anything about type. 

"X does this" 
"I do that sometimes!"
"Y doesn't do this"
"Oh, I never do that"


But, where in any of this is even the beginnings of a comprehension of what is actually being discussed? 

Are you an Ni? "I talk in metaphors a lot". To me, this is absurd. I don't mean stupid, because it isn't stupid... it is just surreal. It is like you've videotaped yourself and are watching it together with a book of star signs in hand, trying to match up this or that behavior to this or that paragraph in your zodiac personality descriptor. 

But what is it for? What does it MEAN? 
@angelcat tries to start a conversation about what Ni -IS- and it falls dead... DEAD... dead on arrival. IMMEDIATELY the response is "well, I'll cherry pick one of your examples and related it to something I do". It is circling around the issue, touching it only glancingly and indirectly, because it cannot be directly engaged.

...and then, that tried and true obstacle in our minds against Sensors. "My sister is an ISFJ, and I don't do X and Y that she does so I can't be that." First, this utterly and perfectly avoids and sidesteps the question of what any of this actually -IS-, as if that whole aspect lives in a blind spot that no one knows is even there. So that anything in that blind spot fades out of memory, as insignificant and incidental... when in fact it is the whole of the matter. 

This is not remotely how an INFJ thinks. Explaining this to an INFJ is actually a pretty intense experience. They are crazy abstract, but not just abstract Thinkers. Abstract PERCEIVERS. This is why it is so weird. When they comprehend things, it is holistically and irrationally. They don't know, then they KNOW... in the most subjective and off-kilter way. So, I, stammeringly, attempt to explain Ni and they stare at me impassively... because the vision of it... the holistic perception of it as real truth doesn't happen, due to the failure of my explanations. So, they just silently resist. Maybe we can kick in Ti and discuss it abstractly, which helps me get to it. 

Then, somehow, suddenly, they stare off somewhere and say, "I get it" ... and the funniest thing happens... they didn't get what I was saying. They saw something for themselves, totally irrespective of me, and now KNOW it. I've become beneath them, my understanding and perception apart from theirs. They needn't sync up. They shouldn't sync up. Theirs is a subjective perception of it, in a void, in the abstract, as a holistic happening in their mind. 

When you run into actual Ni types on this forum, it is obvious because it isn't their logical understanding of it that is subjective... but they perceive it, like an object in a void, in their own peculiar and obstinate way... which is deep and insightful for sure, but again, not a rational thing at all. 

===

You are all, first of all, not operating even in that arena. Not in that same realm whatsoever. I mean, did it just glance off of everyone that this whole conversation hadn't the least resemblance whatsoever to what @angelcat was saying about David Bowie? But became a discussion of entirely sensory things, like watching that videotape or comparing to others. 

This, though, is abstract in its own way, I would argue. That is, entirely Sensory, but approaching those Sensory things in an impressionistic and detached way. Imagining people we know not objectively, but through a subjective or preset (not the object itself but what I have overlaid upon it) lens.... seeing oneself not objectively, but trying to render oneself into some archetype/stereotype in an ever-complex way.


The implications of this are clear... but it is futile because you can't and won't approach this in the way that is necessary. The conversation will fall back to that same sensory approach. The essence of the thing will not be engaged as it needs to be. It will all revert to sensory cues and comparisons. That obstacle of "I am not like that person whom I have so associated with my conception of a type that I cannot dislodge them and readjust".


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> This might be suggestive of Fi-dom.
> 
> Are there other ways you relate to Rey?
> 
> ...



Jack of all trades. When I was young, if something didn't come to me easily (especially physical things), I was done with them. Didn't want to do it. I would beat myself up and say "I'll never be good at this!" after like, ten minutes of doing it and my sister would say "Well, you have to practice!"
Ew. Practice. BOORRRIINNNGGGG.

Take martial arts for example. I hardly ever practiced outside of class time and somehow, I managed to pass all my tests.
EVEN MORE INTRIGUING IS THIS: I was born with VERY short Achilles tendons. Meaning, I walk up on my toes at all times and cannot put my heel on the ground. But I still kept up with everyone in my rank, sometimes even being ahead of them.

Ways I relate to Rey....? Oh, I've been waiting for this moment!

When Finn kept grabbing Rey's hand and she shouted at him, "Stop that!" or whatever along those lines, my sister leaned over and said _"That's so you."_
Hell yes it would be me. I would've laid into him even more than Rey. I can take care of myself, asshole. 

Also, how she saved BB-8. Reminded me of when I saw my sister's pitbull/lab mix start to tear into a defenseless baby bird. I charged at him, shoved him off, and smacked him in the nose. 

*NOTE:* Now, this sounds bad, but Vader (Yes, that was his name XD Don't tell Kylo Ren!) was a TOUGH dog. He just _sneezed_ at me smacking his nose. Trust me, I only hurt his feelings. Seriously. He ignored me for like a week after that. 

When a boy kept teasing me when I was little, I shoved him. Boys were scared of me when I was little because I would kick their asses. Which brings me to another situation...
I was at the pool with my friend and I saw him being picked on by two boys (they were hitting him with pool toys) and I went over and splashed the SHIT out of them. I also got a hold of a pool toy and smacked one of them upside the head.    NO ONE hits my friends with pool toys without mercy, 'cept me. 

I also remember playing football with my guy friend and his other friend. Well, I beat them to the point where the other friend said "Uh, why don't you take my helmet and YOU play on the football team?"

I guess I'm a bit... aggressive sometimes. LOL.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> This might be suggestive of Fi-dom.
> 
> Are there other ways you relate to Rey?
> 
> ...


Also, how Rey INHALED her food made me laugh too. I inhale my food like a vacuum. That's irrelevant, but worth mentioning just because. XD


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Psychopomp said:


> This thread strikes me by the intense, almost helpless reliance on the appearance of things in order to comprehend anything about type.
> 
> "X does this"
> "I do that sometimes!"
> ...


Soooooo you could've just said we were Sensors. No need to be snide... :/


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

SheWolf said:


> Soooooo you could've just said we were Sensors. No need to be snide... :/


Sorry, I wrote that kind of in a 'mood' for unrelated reasons and pretty much fretted over it and kinda regretted it all day... but, I figured I ultimately said what I meant to say, so I decided to just leave it - realizing it wasn't the most heartwarming and kind post I've ever made. If you'd be gracious enough to put that post through the 'who peed in your Cheerios' filter and... hopefully it is useful.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Psychopomp said:


> If you'd be gracious enough to put that post through the 'who peed in your Cheerios' filter and... hopefully it is useful.


Just for that comment, you will receive some of my forgiveness. 

I'm already coming to the inevitable truth that I'm a Sensor pretty harshly. All I ever hear over the Internet is how Sensors are stupid, lack depth, etc. soooo.... yeah, that comment made my night kinda crappy.

So I see the world in relation to what's directly in front of me? Whatever. I get complimented on my intelligence and depth pretty often, so I'll do my best to ignore further assumptions of me based on a ridiculous four-letter theorized psychology.

Sometimes I hate MBTI. People have turned it into some sort of psychological racism.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

SheWolf said:


> Jack of all trades. When I was young, if something didn't come to me easily (especially physical things), I was done with them. Didn't want to do it. I would beat myself up and say "I'll never be good at this!" after like, ten minutes of doing it and my sister would say "Well, you have to practice!" Ew. Practice. BOORRRIINNNGGGG.


Erm. You misunderstand me.

Jack of all Trades -- Se types -- can pick up things quickly. Like Rey, suddenly figuring out how to fly even though she's never done it before and only just knows about how ships WORK from being a scavenger. Or picking up a lightsaber she has never used before and actually managing NOT to die in 2.0 seconds. (You'll notice how long Ne/Si Finn lasted despite his Stormtrooper training -- 43 seconds. 43 SECONDS. And Kylo Ren was PLAYING with him for half that. For fun.) Rey is Se. Give her anything, she'll objectively orient to it and make it work, because she's immersed in her sensory environment through Se. 



> Take martial arts for example. I hardly ever practiced outside of class time and somehow, I managed to pass all my tests.
> EVEN MORE INTRIGUING IS THIS: I was born with VERY short Achilles tendons. Meaning, I walk up on my toes at all times and cannot put my heel on the ground. But I still kept up with everyone in my rank, sometimes even being ahead of them.


Not really relevant to Se unless you can do that with most physical things. 



> Ways I relate to Rey....? Oh, I've been waiting for this moment!
> 
> When Finn kept grabbing Rey's hand and she shouted at him, "Stop that!" or whatever along those lines, my sister leaned over and said _"That's so you."_
> Hell yes it would be me. I would've laid into him even more than Rey. I can take care of myself, asshole.
> ...


All ... well, subjective sensory impressions based in your immediate and longer-term past. Si. ISXJ. 



Psychopomp said:


> Sorry, I wrote that kind of in a 'mood' for unrelated reasons and pretty much fretted over it and kinda regretted it all day... but, I figured I ultimately said what I meant to say, so I decided to just leave it - realizing it wasn't the most heartwarming and kind post I've ever made. If you'd be gracious enough to put that post through the 'who peed in your Cheerios' filter and... hopefully it is useful.


Yeah, I thought -- wow, someone made him angry today. But I thanked it anyway because you did make some good points.

(Now I'm going to rant, because this has been pissing me off for a long time. It is directed at none of you, just venting at large against stereotypes, biases, prejudices, and other typing BS that permeates PerC.)

Of particular interest to me (and later, frustration in some of the secondary arguments) was the total lack of Ni-engaging by ANYONE in this thread, yet the insistence by some that Ni was still present and in a high position... even though NO ONE took the Ni-bait. At all. Should not there be some ACTUAL EVIDENCE of Ni before we go slapping NJ typings on people -- friends, celebrities, and so forth? Like, actual tangible evidence of high Ni?

I believe so. 

This entire thing really does blow the lid off that damn typing bias against sensors, because you can have *a clear and lack of anything pertaining to Ni* in 6 pages of conversation, or an entire celebrity's YouTube Interviews (available for all to see) and STILL have third parties insisting the OP and/or other people asking to be typed... are Ni-doms/auxes. 

What the actual hell?



SheWolf said:


> Just for that comment, you will receive some of my forgiveness.
> 
> I'm already coming to the inevitable truth that I'm a Sensor pretty harshly. All I ever hear over the Internet is how Sensors are stupid, lack depth, etc. soooo.... yeah, that comment made my night kinda crappy.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I really am. It annoys and angers me that sensors have to go through this. I see so many creative, talented people get typed as sensors and ... almost have a meltdown, because it's such an "undesirable" thing propagated through inaccurate profiles. You cannot look at sensors as the profiles -- you have to look at Sensor as You.

Creative. Talented. Intelligent. Interesting. The stereotypes are inaccurate, because you violate them. By being a sensor, you make sensors awesome, because you know first hand that the sensor profiles / descriptions / hatred within the typing community ... are a bunch of crap.

(And then, if you're anything like me, you'll say -- screw the sensor stereotypes, I'm not like that and I'm going to break as many of the stereotypes as I possibly can to PROVE IT TO THE ENTIRE WORLD THAT SENSORS ROCK.)

Erm. Yes. Sorry, Fe got away from me there.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

SheWolf said:


> Just for that comment, you will receive some of my forgiveness.
> 
> I'm already coming to the inevitable truth that I'm a Sensor pretty harshly. I all I ever hear over the Internet is how Sensors are stupid, lack depth, etc. soooo.... yeah, that comment made my night kinda crappy.
> 
> ...


Oh, its a mess. Really, though, what it comes down to is that MBTI is one system and cognitive functions / Jung is another. They both mean different things.

You can be an MBTI INFJ, and take that for what it is worth... but also be a Jungian Si, and take that for what it is worth. It just so happens that I think that the latter is worth more.

I type JK Rowling an ISFJ. Frankly, I think she is a perfect example. Because, to me, Si is about perceiving reality through the filter of one's own psyche.. which overlays reality with fantastical interpretations. But, those interpretations are primarily sensory in nature, which we might call mythology. It isn't symbolism (though everyone is capable of symbolism) but a sensory version of it. Pure symbolism doesn't work for the sensory mind, so it is replaced with fantastical but tangible things. This is abstraction, but still sensory. Harry Potter is an act of creating a private mythological world, and that appeals on many levels, but is a profoundly sensory exercise. Utterly sensory. 

Si types would then be very imaginative... in fact, despite on the surface stating that Si must be 'realistic', even MBTI under the surface would have to admit that it isn't. The worst stereotypes of Si are of that person who watches soap operas all day, or reads romance novels, or who immerses themselves into the promises of religion, or who watches FOX news and shakes their fist at some fantastical private re-rendering of the actual world, or can't see their children for what they are but as failed examples of some archetype - dressing up their kids in princess costumes and forgetting there is a tangible human in there. These are the nightmarish visions of Si that anyone would recognize... and they all speak to fantasy, to a private world. Underpinning this would be Ne, which creates a sense of credulity and wonder... an openness to ideas, and the ability to change objects in the mind into their imagined potentials - for good and for evil. 

If you think about it, it would be Si that would most attract people to personality typing. Taking real, unique people living real lives, and abstracting them into archetypes... seeing all the ways they connect and fail to connect... and with Ti in the mix, SFJs are mad for typing. It is Se types that can't get into it. 

What is funny is that a lot of this is all caused by not seeing people as they are, but through filters. We don't see what is really there. 

What MBTI thinks as S types are mainly what Jung would call 'normal' people, who he would say have no type at all. MBTI ties all abstraction into N and so all true Si types will be typed N. But that's that system. You can embrace it or reject it.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Erm. You misunderstand me.
> 
> Jack of all Trades -- Se types -- can pick up things quickly. Like Rey, suddenly figuring out how to fly even though she's never done it before and only just knows about how ships WORK from being a scavenger. Or picking up a lightsaber she has never used before and actually managing NOT to die in 2.0 seconds. (You'll notice how long Ne/Si Finn lasted despite his Stormtrooper training -- 43 seconds. 43 SECONDS. And Kylo Ren was PLAYING with him for half that. For fun.) Rey is Se. Give her anything, she'll objectively orient to it and make it work, because she's immersed in her sensory environment through Se.


Can't answer you there. This truthfully sounds like something someone other than myself can answer.



angelcat said:


> All ... well, subjective sensory impressions based in your immediate and longer-term past. Si. ISXJ.


Ah... well damn. Truthfully I don't think I have Fe. I could be ISTJ.

Makes me think... _Katniss Everdeen._

I have not seen the movies, but in the book, she literally RAN OFF in an emotional FIT when she discovered she was going to have to go back in the Arena for a second time. Since ISTJ has Introverted Feeling, it could explain why I take off in the way I do during a crisis (as you mentioned running away from emotional situations is a sign of Fi) I mean it's bad. I can't handle a crisis. In those moments I ran away, I only thought about how I couldn't handle this. I didn't think about how my running away was going to affect my mom until I already did it and I felt AWFUL but... I still couldn't go back in there. The only reason the stranger got me to go in there was because I didn't want to throw a fit in front of a stranger.

But somehow, I don't see any Te in me? I don't know.



angelcat said:


> I'm sorry. I really am. It annoys and angers me that sensors have to go through this. I see so many creative, talented people get typed as sensors and ... almost have a meltdown, because it's such an "undesirable" thing propagated through inaccurate profiles. You cannot look at sensors as the profiles -- you have to look at Sensor as You.


I won't lie, I've shed a couple tears at people saying I am a Sensor through this. Scrolling through my Facebook feed, I see so many people in the MBTI groups talk about how "boring" and "irritating" Sensors are. It always bothered me, even when I thought I was an Intuitive myself. In fact, I probably won't be telling people my type on the internet. I just don't have the energy and I shouldn't have to prove myself to anyone who doesn't, and never will, know me. 

I'd like to see their faces when they see me, a girl with a pink wig, tie-dyed shirt with a kitten on it, and skinny jeans say she's an ISTJ  (if I am one, that is.)


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Erm. You misunderstand me.
> 
> Jack of all Trades -- Se types -- can pick up things quickly. Like Rey, suddenly figuring out how to fly even though she's never done it before and only just knows about how ships WORK from being a scavenger. Or picking up a lightsaber she has never used before and actually managing NOT to die in 2.0 seconds. (You'll notice how long Ne/Si Finn lasted despite his Stormtrooper training -- 43 seconds. 43 SECONDS. And Kylo Ren was PLAYING with him for half that. For fun.) Rey is Se. Give her anything, she'll objectively orient to it and make it work, because she's immersed in her sensory environment through Se.


Also, Rey, or any fictional character, may not be the best example of Se because I seriously doubt any human being is capable of totally picking up something and magically learning it out of nowhere. Of course Rey had to be able to fight Kylo, who had been training for many years, and survive! She's the hero of a movie! Of course she had to figure out how to fly the Falcon! Just seems a slight bit of an unrealistic sort of perception of Se to me???


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Psychopomp said:


> I type JK Rowling an ISFJ. Frankly, I think she is a perfect example. Because, to me, Si is about perceiving reality through the filter of one's own psyche.. which overlays reality with fantastical interpretations. But, those interpretations are primarily sensory in nature, which we might call mythology. It isn't symbolism (though everyone is capable of symbolism) but a sensory version of it. Pure symbolism doesn't work for the sensory mind, so it is replaced with fantastical but tangible things. This is abstraction, but still sensory. Harry Potter is an act of creating a private mythological world, and that appeals on many levels, but is a profoundly sensory exercise. Utterly sensory.


I tentatively agree with you on that -- tentatively because you are going to get fought ON EVERY LEVEL by mentioning it anywhere -- there will be people insist no sensor is that creative or imaginative, there will be people who insist that her immaculate planning of the universe from ground up / story boarding is Ni... there will be people who insist she must be Ne/Si to create that much creative detail... there will be people who shout that she self-identifies / types as INFJ and how dare you question how much she knows herself. 

Basically, in other words, you're up against a shitstorm of anti-sensor bias.

Though I am not always sure about Fe for her. She's pretty... cold / emotionally reserved in her interviews. 



> Underpinning this would be Ne, which creates a sense of credulity and wonder... an openness to ideas, and the ability to change objects in the mind into their imagined potentials - for good and for evil.


That's what I love about Ne.



> If you think about it, it would be Si that would most attract people to personality typing. Taking real, unique people living real lives, and abstracting them into archetypes... seeing all the ways they connect and fail to connect... and with Ti in the mix, SFJs are mad for typing. It is Se types that can't get into it.


And yet everyone into typing who presumes to know everything knows SFJs who have zero interest and are boring, so by your and their very being here discussing it, you/they must be intuitives! Go figure. 



> What is funny is that a lot of this is all caused by not seeing people as they are, but through filters. We don't see what is really there.


"Most people do not see the world as it is; they see it as they are." - Anna and the King

Best. Quote. Ever. So true. So profoundly true.



SheWolf said:


> Ah... well damn. Truthfully I don't think I have Fe. I could be ISTJ.
> 
> Makes me think... _Katniss Everdeen._
> 
> ...


Yeah. You didn't really abstract with me much at all, so I'm not sure you use Ti either.

You might have more Te than you think. You're pretty direct / straightforward / commanding, even in your reflections on your past self and your actions. Objectivity comes into play with Te.



> I won't lie, I've shed a couple tears at people saying I am a Sensor through this. Scrolling through my Facebook feed, I see so many people in the MBTI groups talk about how "boring" and "irritating" Sensors are. It always bothered me, even when I thought I was an Intuitive myself. In fact, I probably won't be telling people my type on the internet. I just don't have the energy and I shouldn't have to prove myself to anyone who doesn't, and never will, know me.
> 
> I'd like to see their faces when they see me, a girl with a pink wig, tie-dyed shirt with a kitten on it, and skinny jeans say she's an ISTJ  (if I am one, that is.)


=(

I went through that too. In fact, I am so profoundly un-like all the sensor stereotypes that my N friends have that most of them refuse to think of me as one and insist I must be mistyped. No, the truth is just that their perceptions of sensors, and their experience with people they think are sensors, are inaccurate when applied to me -- because like everyone else, I am an individual. (Ha, ha, chew on that awhile.)



SheWolf said:


> Also, Rey, or any fictional character, may not be the best example of Se because I seriously doubt any human being is capable of totally picking up something and magically learning it out of nowhere. Of course Rey had to be able to fight Kylo, who had been training for many years, and survive! She's the hero of a movie! Of course she had to figure out how to fly the Falcon! Just seems a slight bit of an unrealistic sort of perception of Se to me???


Mm. I have an ESFP sister and had an ESFP best friend for a number of years. Their sensory adaptability is not so removed from possibility as you might think.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Yeah. You didn't really abstract with me much at all, so I'm not sure you use Ti either.
> 
> You might have more Te than you think. You're pretty direct / straightforward / commanding, even in your reflections on your past self and your actions. Objectivity comes into play with Te.


Or.... ya know, I could just be a bitch. :')

Ha, but in all seriousness _(hmm....)_ I am sometimes told I give off an "Ice Queen" impression. (*cough* Elsa *Cough*)

Actually, how others perceive you can be important. A friend of mine told me he was scared to even approach me, because I gave off a "confident" and almost "authoritative" vibe. I balked at him. Me? I'm seriously the goofiest person you'll ever meet when I'm with my friends. At the Halloween party I went to, I was dancing with my friends and friends of friends, obnoxiously singing the words to The Banana Boat Song. I just had to, after all, Beetlejuice is one of my favorite movies. :')
In fact, I can go so far as to genuinely say I'm a fun-loving person. When you talk to me on a personal level, I crack jokes and don't take anything seriously. So, once again, if I truly am ISTJ, there's another stereotype washed down the drain.



angelcat said:


> Mm. I have an ESFP sister and had an ESFP best friend for a number of years. Their sensory adaptability is not so removed from possibility as you might think.


Actually, now that you mention it, it isn't so impossible as I do think.
My grandmother taught herself how to play guitar, and play it damn good, with no instruction.
My aunt taught herself to crochet various things herself and without a pattern.
My great grandfather taught himself difficult mathematics with just some textbooks and he dropped out of school in the third grade.

... then there's me. Good at nothing except being able to give you some in-depth knowledge about my favorite fictional characters. Yeah, I probably shouldn't view myself like this, everyone's good at something, but I don't think I've found (or noticed) mine yet.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Apple Pine said:


> Alright. You are definitely Ti user, as you are on Fe/Ti, but do you feel you could be Ti dom, or you think you are rarely systematic, logical? When you try to explain something, do you tend to talk in impressions, and struggle when it comes to explaining them? INFJs tend to often contradict themselves, ISTPs are more to the point, and are more consistent while arguing.
> 
> How would you answer these questions? :
> 
> ...


Yeah i struggle to explain things and when I do im all over the place.
Especially in person.

Um im not sure what yiu mean by the fractions thing.
A rule is something made up for a system to work, but it can also be unecessary rules that are just made to benefit the person in charge. You dont have to follow any rule but I think every person should follow rules that make sense
This was short but I really have to run to school


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

angelcat said:


> YES.
> 
> That entire movie is so Ni. (Who was I discussing that with lately?? Was it you? LOL)


Indeed, it's a very Ni movie. One's receptivity to "The Fountain" should be the litmus test for Ni-doms. It might have been me. I didn't talk about the actual movie, though, but I posted this recently in another thread:



mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, von Trier I can definitely see as one. He fits the artistic "crank" that @_Psychopomp_ is referring to. Some other directors I'd include as INFJs are David Lynch, Terrence Malick, and Darren Aronofsky. Their work is usually deemed obscure and pretentious by the mainstream media, and are the complete opposite of what most people want from the movies, namely the ESTP fueled action movies like "Fast and the Furious" or "Transformers." "Fast and the Furious" won the favorite movie for People's Choice Awards recently, for instance.





angelcat said:


> The entire Hannibal series is Ni -- Ni characters, Ni conversations, Ni/Se aesthetics throughout. Loved their conversations about well tailored person suits. I laughed when one reviewer said it was basically snotty intellectualism / had no substance -- it did, but they didn't understand the weight and gravity of the conversations.


I've only seen the first few episodes, but yes, Will Graham is one of the clearest representations of an INFJ I've seen, but a very unhealthy one. He's like a cautionary tale to the Ni-doms who don't engage in their extraverted functions, becoming completely detached from Se. Others in this category include Natalie Portman's character from Aronofsky's Black Swan and Edward Norton's character in David Fincher's Fight Club, who both, interestingly enough, have an ESTP shadow character. Seriously, are there any "normal" INFJ characters?


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Be interested to know, for the two people searching for their type in this thread, which one of these two thinking processes you identify with:

Deduction and Induction

I won't say which goes with Ti or Te until I hear your responses. 



mistakenforstranger said:


> Seriously, are there any "normal" INFJ characters?


Yeah: Olivia Dunham from FRINGE.

She's... awesome. She really is. One of the best INFJs in fiction -- so much so that I probably over-use her in my examples of INFJs.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Be interested to know, for the two people searching for their type in this thread, which one of these two thinking processes you identify with:
> 
> Deduction and Induction
> 
> I won't say which goes with Ti or Te until I hear your responses.


Uh, I don't know really. I'm gonna go with Deductive. I'm not much for open-ended things. In fact I hate them. I want things concluded.




angelcat said:


> Yeah: Olivia Dunham from FRINGE.
> 
> She's... awesome. She really is. One of the best INFJs in fiction -- so much so that I probably over-use her in my examples of INFJs.


I do kind of grow tired of INFJ examples being like Gandalf or something. Or how all INFJ's are always these "pure" heroes.

Oswald Cobblepot/Penguin from Gotham. He's one twisted MF'er. And yup, he's an INFJ. Probably not totally normal though, his Ni makes him come off as very creepy to others because it's of course abstractions that catch people off guard.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

@angelcat, I was wondering if this description of Si is accurate for you. It's very basic, but it touches on the core features (at least for me with Ni): Introverted Sensing (Si)


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

I'm gonna go with INFJ, until I see more evidence for something else. Look at your own experiences with people, and then group it up or match it up to the descriptions, does it match? Do you have those traits? Get a pen and paper. Write it out. 

Don't get lost in self report. Also, there is the incidence, that many people who have been looking on PerC can actually relate heavily to two different types, there is actually nothing wrong with that. The limitations of the 16 types are arbitrary, only so far as they should help oneself. 

I would say INFJ, because you sound a lot like INFJs who speak online here, and it comes a bit from how we express ourselves in our written language. It's related to what we tend to prefer or are inclined to see in the same subjective experience. Si users are more true to the traditional, sensory aspects of an experience, and that tends to show in their communications, plights of interest and what they would prefer to do in one moment, rather than another. while Ni dominant users are much less inclined toward the immediate and the concrete versions of events, they see abstractions, tend to speak their love for abstraction, and project those abstractions onto the world that surrounds them. "It wasn't just a very cool story about zombies, it is a story of the struggle of humankind in a deteriorating world.'

there is also, the argument of utility, I think Si users would more prefer to focus on things which can be proven to be useful or not useful, while Ni users are much less inclined toward that focus.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

angelcat said:


> Be interested to know, for the two people searching for their type in this thread, which one of these two thinking processes you identify with:
> 
> Deduction and Induction
> 
> ...


I think I use both? But im going to need examples


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

I watched a video about it and dont everyone use both in different occasions? How does this have anything yo do with if you use Ti or Te more. Anyways the inductive way see med more fun to me but id use both depending on the situation and what I know..


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

karmachameleon said:


> Yeah i struggle to explain things and when I do im all over the place.
> Especially in person.


No Te.



> Um im not sure what yiu mean by the fractions thing.
> A rule is something made up for a system to work, but it can also be unecessary rules that are just made to benefit the person in charge. You dont have to follow any rule but I think every person should follow rules that make sense
> This was short but I really have to run to school


No high Ti. Lower Ti, yes.



SheWolf said:


> Uh, I don't know really. I'm gonna go with Deductive. I'm not much for open-ended things. In fact I hate them. I want things concluded.


J type. But it's interesting you chose the Ti answer of inventing logic and then looking for evidence to back it up.



mistakenforstranger said:


> @angelcat, I was wondering if this description of Si is accurate for you. It's very basic, but it touches on the core features (at least for me with Ni): Introverted Sensing (Si)


Yes.



AverOblivious said:


> I'm gonna go with INFJ, until I see more evidence for something else. Look at your own experiences with people, and then group it up or match it up to the descriptions, does it match? Do you have those traits? Get a pen and paper. Write it out.
> 
> Don't get lost in self report. Also, there is the incidence, that many people who have been looking on PerC can actually relate heavily to two different types, there is actually nothing wrong with that. The limitations of the 16 types are arbitrary, only so far as they should help oneself.
> 
> ...


So she shows zero Ni anywhere in this thread and refuses to abstract given the chance to elaborate on abstractions... and you still come up with Ni-dom? 



karmachameleon said:


> I think I use both? But im going to need examples


You're ISFJ.



karmachameleon said:


> I watched a video about it and dont everyone use both in different occasions? How does this have anything yo do with if you use Ti or Te more. Anyways the inductive way see med more fun to me but id use both depending on the situation and what I know..


In general, I suppose once in awhile we use our less-preferred Ti or Te function, but in daily life the majority of the time we use only one.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

@angelcat pretty sure im IEI aka roughly INFJ in mbti. The only other type someone could convince me about rn is ISTP


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

karmachameleon said:


> @angelcat pretty sure im IEI aka roughly INFJ in mbti. The only other type someone could convince me about rn is ISTP


Then how about showing me some high abstracting of your own vocation / merit / instigation and not asking for specific examples to work off of?


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> J type. But it's interesting you chose the Ti answer of inventing logic and then looking for evidence to back it up.


Alright, let's try this, it may or may not be relevant, but surely you can get SOMETHING out of it.

My computing essentials class. My instructor DROVE. ME. NUTS. He would never give a straight answer to anything. His lectures were directionless, would deviate from whatever we were learning that day because he even admitted that he gets excited about his knowledge and just explodes with things he wants to say. 

My sister said I was exaggerating when I bitched about him, so one day I told her I was going to copy everything he put on the board into my notes. She took one look at them and said _"What drugs is this guy on....?"_

Now, I know that he was likely an INTP. There was so much Ne in his "lectures." He even admitted that he often doesn't go by a lesson plan. THIS MADE ME WANT TO RIP MY HAIR OUT. You could not ask this guy a question and expect a straight answer. He got really frustrated with me because I never understood what he was saying. EVER. He played favorites with those who had prior knowledge and even those who never listened to a word he said and did their own thing, likely other Intuitives. He was more of a facilitator than a teacher, which is not what I needed for this class. Me? Well the only way I was able to get through that class was to follow the pre-printed instructions (which were NOT developed by him, take note) carefully, at my OWN accord, and follow the tutorials on the site we were supposed to visit to practice. This was actually only the HTML portion of the class.

There was an older woman who clung to me like glue, because I was the only one who could help her. Many days I came to the lab early to help her because she couldn't get help from Dave (the instructor) and still didn't understand the written instructions. So, while I was not able to articulate how to do them, I would SHOW her, or tell her exactly what to do as she did it. And if she didn't understand something, I was more than willing to back up and explain further. "Well, that's not what Dave told me..." she would say to me and I told her not to listen to Dave, go by the written instructions or come to me and we would work together on it, since our minds worked in the same manner. Dave would go away from the instructions often and A LOT of the time it ended up not working and now the entire class's project is screwed up. Then he would get overwhelmed because he obviously couldn't fix nearly 20 people's projects.

When I would ask this guy for help, I'd get an _"Uhm...."_ and then he would just go in and start fixing it himself WITHOUT TELLING ME OR BOTHERING TO SHOW ME WHAT HE DID. I got SO pissed off at that. I didn't learn a damn thing in that class because of him. Well, maybe some basic things I retained, the things I took the time to understand ON MY OWN. He valued people "figuring out things for themselves," which I couldn't stand. I am step-by-step, no bullshit type when I learn those things. I ended up getting a couple other people come to ME in that clas when they needed help, not Dave, and they walked away with a correctly done project. 
I was actually the only one who did something creative when we did the photo editing portion of the class. I learned how to color splash and other little things by following online instructions. In other words, you give me the instructions on how to do something, it'll get done, flawlessly. 

I learned to knit and crochet in a day just from watching video tutorials. I even knitted my brother a scarf and made my mom a granny square for Christmas. Now, with knitting/crocheting, I needed a visual, written instructions confused me and I found them to be full of BS that did things more complicated than they needed to be. 

I can put a double bridle, martingale, leg wraps, and saddle on a horse in no time flat. At the horse riding camps I attended, I always won when played "quick tacking" and also grooming. My horses were practically sparkling clean when we did grooming challenges. They'd ask me how I was able to do it not only quick, but so nicely every time, to which I reply, _"Lots of practice and sweat."_
I had a riding instructor that WOULD NOT let me ride until my horse was tacked perfectly and every speck of dirt was removed. It was annoying to me at the time, but now I'm extremely thankful for it.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

angelcat said:


> J type. But it's interesting you chose the Ti answer of inventing logic and then looking for evidence to back it up.


In fact, is this a good way to explain Si vs. Se, kind of like Ne vs Ni?

Si: Slower to learn, takes practice, but then hands-on things are executed perfectly.

Se: Learn quickly, gets hands-on things done, but can be done recklessly or "sloppy."


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