# INFJ with Aspergers



## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

What would an INFJ with Asperger syndrome look like? I know two people who have the disorder (not in person, through an online group), and I think they're both INTP or INTJ but what would an INFJ with high functioning autism or aspergers look like?


----------



## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

Anyone else ;-)

Seems more like you are asking about how empathy, emotional sensitivity, emotional expression and emotional intelligence might manifest themselves, alongside how well social cues or non verbals are understood ?


----------



## QrivaN (Aug 3, 2012)

Take a "regular" INFJ, deplete their Fe, put their Ti on steroids, and throw their Se in a dumpster. Congratulations! You've just given an INFJ Autism!

Ignore the Se part for Aspergers result.


----------



## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

QrivaN said:


> Take a "regular" INFJ, deplete their Fe, put their Ti on steroids, and throw their Se in a dumpster. Congratulations! You've just given an INFJ Autism!
> 
> Ignore the Se part for Aspergers result.


Not cool, Fe and Se may not always be lacking (stereotyping is wrong)...


----------



## QrivaN (Aug 3, 2012)

StElmosDream said:


> Not cool, Fe and Se may not always be lacking (stereotyping is wrong)...


Sorry... That was a bad joke...


----------



## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

QrivaN said:


> Sorry... That was a bad joke...


I forgive your flippancy, however you may wish to reconsider your perception when Fe is more likely to still be present in female ASD's (as the potential social chameleons) possibly requiring more social interventions in males that may be perceived as emotionally inexpressive or unaware (cases differ when so many may either already know social rules and etiquette or learn them by their 20's).


----------



## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

StElmosDream said:


> QrivaN said:
> 
> 
> > Take a "regular" INFJ, deplete their Fe, put their Ti on steroids, and throw their Se in a dumpster. Congratulations! You've just given an INFJ Autism!
> ...



Isn't stereotyping what this entire forum is all about? We're trying to understand people better by "typing" them into specific categories, as opposed to considering each individual person as entirely random.

I don't think this "joke" was too far off base. Fe is a function that is extraordinarily difficult for people with Aspergers. Almost entirely absent, in fact. They are "socially blind" and Fe is all about social skills. INFJs have significant Fe, and so it stands to reason that an INFJ with Aspergers would be like if their Fe was depleted.

Ti is a function that is like a library of facts. It is a very non-confrontational thinking, as opposed to Te. It is a very deep methodical function that describes Aspergers people well. They are very intelligent thinking people and the thinking function seems to be in overdrive for most of them. Couple a strong introverted trait with strong thinking and it can appear that Ti may even be their primary function. An INFJ with Aspergers may seem like their Ti was much higher than 3rd place because their Fe is so suppressed.

I'd like to add another likely descriptor: Si is a function that is _all about_ doing things a very specific and repetitive way. People on the autistic spectrum have extraordinary difficulty with change. This looks just like massive Si because its almost like obsessive tradition that you can't just go changing their life or they will feel like freaking out. Si dominant people thrive on stability, and that is a fair description of anyone on the autistic spectrum as well. So while an INFJ normally would put Si as their _very last_ (8th) function, someone with Aspergers would _appear_ to have massive Si anyway. So consequently, their Se is "in the dumpster", as the typical Aspergers person is not really much of a showoff or thrill seeker or anything really that you think of when you think Se. What's the _most_ opposite personality type to what a typical Aspergers person would describe themselves as? Probably the ESTP and the ESFP. Jocks/Athletes are so far and away opposite of Aspergers people. Same goes for the performers/social clowns. These are all people with blasting Se for everybody to see. That's not how Aspergers people do. I think its fair to say the Se is in the dumpster here.

So truly, I don't consider that post "stereotypical" in the sense of picking on someone, and I don't consider it a joke. I think its an accurate assessment of what an INFJ with Aspergers would look like. After all, this _is_ what the OP was asking, isn't it? Any attempt to answer at all would be "stereotyping".


----------



## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

Recon777 said:


> Isn't stereotyping what this entire forum is all about? We're trying to understand people better by "typing" them into specific categories, as opposed to considering each individual person as entirely random.
> 
> So truly, I don't consider that post "stereotypical" in the sense of picking on someone, and I don't consider it a joke. I think its an accurate assessment of what an INFJ with Aspergers would look like. After all, this _is_ what the OP was asking, isn't it? Any attempt to answer at all would be "stereotyping".


I don't disagree with your cognitive function reasoning (this could be true for some individuals), however would and could are not necessarily the same thing, in the holistic sense of human natures being a spectrum of individual traits and qualities in itself, insofar as autism being the same way that individuals are on a spectrum in terms of thinking-feelings-self awareness-emotional expressiveness preferences even outside MBTI. 

In short Fe driven autistics can and do exist*, being one of these emotionally sensitive [less severe] autistic empathic Fe males myself, as the type that also had to learn Ti-Si ways to fit male gender expectations, learning to relate to the ways males are socialised differently to girls or women as a societal rule of thumb (I learned Fe a different way though as the people pleaser growing up and listener-'therapist' type becoming more acutely aware of peoples needs from observing them).

*(Some might suggest in a minority, however even psychology as early as 2009 has had to reconsider how ASD's may define empathy, deeper thinking, emotions and feelings with the right interventions and school-professionals-socialisation support)


----------



## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

Then you sir, are an exceptional autistic. Definitely not the norm. That's just fine, of course. But the OP was asking a hypothetical question, and as such, generalities and probability do come into play. We typically don't consider the "exceptions" when describing something hypothetical.

Incidentally: _"also had to learn Ti-Si ways to fit male gender expectations"
_I beg to differ about Ti-Si being "male" expectations. Look at your most manly-man stereotypes out there: The ESTP's Se dominance is a great example. Se is a typically "macho" trait, and while plenty of women exhibit this, the typical term for them is "tom_boy_"anyway. As for thinking, consider the "leader" types such as the ENTJ. Stereotypically males are the "leaders" and Te is what makes someone a good leader for sure.


----------



## lilpixieofterror (Oct 24, 2013)

StElmosDream said:


> Not cool, Fe and Se may not always be lacking (stereotyping is wrong)...


I could go with that one. Once you get to know somebody with Aspergers or Altruism. They actually are rather sweet and can be very caring. In some ways, they are better people then many of us can be.


----------



## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

Recon777 said:


> Then you sir, are an exceptional autistic. Definitely not the norm. That's just fine, of course. But the OP was asking a hypothetical question, and as such, generalities and probability do come into play. We typically don't consider the "exceptions" when describing something hypothetical.
> 
> *Well us 'exceptions' are starting to become a norm in higher education, meeting at least a few that were gregarious, people focussed and resistant to working in groups until they understood the social rules and expectations better; mostly known in the computing fields with the odd one or two found in psychology and possibly even in law (socialising groups and societies can prove invaluable for some as a 'catch-up course' to hone and develop skills on a more professional level - many known still prefer the equivalent of an empty room and a schedule to work in isolation).*
> 
> ...


*Seems you may be right. In truth I have never really got on with ESxx 'manly males' after knowing an ESTP(?) friend growing up that had a way of attracting, influencing and collecting friends or acquaintances wherever he went (my alcoholic uncle is exactly the same)... turned out badly when both never stopped being the life and soul of a party (tattoos, alcohol, drugs and weekend police house prison time as a 'mark of pride').*


----------



## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

Aspbergers and autism is brain void of Fe.. I think don't anyone who has a behavioral syndrome can accurately be typed.. In fact I am sure Jung and Myers Briggs both stated that the mind must be healthy and suffering no abnormalities in order to accurately type someone.
Whatever.. The symptoms of aspergers are someone void of Fe .. This excludes INFJ.. 

It's like people forget rule number 1 about INFJs.. That is they are people people not anti social buffoons who lack social graces.

Not saying aspies are buffoons.. Just saying INFJs are NOT.


----------



## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

Well I have a whole lot of experience with a very broken INFJ. I was married to her for fifteen years. She is about as antisocial a person as you can get. Extremely distrusting of others, and highly paranoid. Does not care one bit about how much pain and misery she causes others. She is extremely vindictive, can't take responsibility for her own faults, and always accuses others of things they are not doing... So even if a person is INFJ, if they are sufficiently broken enough, yes they can lose that magical property that makes INFJs nice people.


----------



## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

Recon777 said:


> Well I have a whole lot of experience with a very broken INFJ. I was married to her for fifteen years. She is about as antisocial a person as you can get. Extremely distrusting of others, and highly paranoid. Does not care one bit about how much pain and misery she causes others. She is extremely vindictive, can't take responsibility for her own faults, and always accuses others of things they are not doing... So even if a person is INFJ, if they are sufficiently broken enough, yes they can lose that magical property that makes INFJs nice people.


Thank you for sharing, I can see why you may be unclear about ASD's with INFJ traits (ironically Autistic women may be more common, yet far less likely to get diagnosed as a result of observing assumed emotions, socialising rules and socialising more from earlier ages, potentially becoming social chameleons as per gender expectations)... all the same unhealthy or maladaptive tendencies are still unhealthy.


----------



## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

I think that there is some lack in understanding both Fe and ASD. Fe is not necessarily synonymous with social values. It is more complex than that. Even if it were just that, those values are relative. Not every Fe person shares the same values. It depends on which combination of social dynamics the person feels they are in line with. It could be family, friends, work, general society, etc. I think for a person with ASD that uses Fe, they might learn the values of one, but will struggle to adapt to other dynamics.

My girlfriend is a 'neurotypical' ENFJ and even I (an aspie) have to correct her social appropriateness at times.


----------



## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Good article

http://www.capt.org/research/article/JPT_Vol66_1206.pdf


----------



## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

PaladinX said:


> I think that there is some lack in understanding both Fe and ASD. Fe is not necessarily synonymous with social values. It is more complex than that. Even if it were just that, those values are relative. Not every Fe person shares the same values. It depends on which combination of social dynamics the person feels they are in line with. It could be family, friends, work, general society, etc. I think for a person with ASD that uses Fe, they might learn the values of one, but will struggle to adapt to other dynamics.
> 
> My girlfriend is a 'neurotypical' ENFJ and even I (an aspie) have to correct her social appropriateness at times.


I certainly didn't mean to imply that social _values_ was the subject. Fe has more to do with social _skills_ or ability. The two are mutually independent. An ENFJ is going to most likely have vastly superior social ability than an ISTP Aspie. Its almost without question. However I agree that social values are definitely something entirely different. Values are more academic. They are taught, and learned. Anybody can study and learn social values, but this does not make you more capable of reading another person's body language, or perceiving subtle nuances of an active social scene. In such cases, even a morally corrupt ENFJ is going to have more ability. All this of course, is subject to probability and can have rare exceptions.


----------



## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

Recon777 said:


> I certainly didn't mean to imply that social _values_ was the subject. Fe has more to do with social _skills_ or ability. The two are mutually independent. An ENFJ is going to most likely have vastly superior social ability than an ISTP Aspie. Its almost without question. However I agree that social values are definitely something entirely different. Values are more academic. They are taught, and learned. Anybody can study and learn social values, but this does not make you more capable of reading another person's body language, or perceiving subtle nuances of an active social scene. In such cases, even a morally corrupt ENFJ is going to have more ability. All this of course, is subject to probability and can have rare exceptions.


You know that Feeling _is_ about value, right?

Going back to basics:



Jung said:


> Sensation (i.e. sense perception) tells us that something exists; thinking tells you what it is; *feeling tells you whether it is agreeable or not*; and intuition tells you whence it comes and where it is going."


It is the reasoning that goes behind the skills.



Jung said:


> Feeling in the extraverted attitude is orientated by objective data, i.e. the object is the indispensable determinant of the kind of feeling. It agrees with objective values. If one has always known feeling as a subjective fact, the nature of extraverted feeling will not immediately be understood, since it has freed itself as fully as possible from the subjective factor, and has, instead, become wholly subordinated to the influence of the object. Even where it seems to show a certain independence of the quality of the concrete object, it is none the less under the spell of. traditional or generally valid standards of some sort. I may feel constrained, for instance, to use the predicate 'beautiful' or 'good', not because I find the object 'beautiful' or 'good' from my own subjective feeling, but because it is fitting and politic so to do; and fitting it certainly is, inasmuch as a contrary opinion would disturb the general feeling situation. A feeling-judgment such as this is in no way a simulation or a lie—it is merely an act of accommodation. A picture, for instance, may be termed beautiful, because a picture that is hung in a drawing-room and bearing a well-known signature is generally assumed to be beautiful, or because the predicate 'ugly' might offend the family of the fortunate possessor, or because there is a benevolent intention on the part of the visitor to create a pleasant feeling-atmosphere, to which end everything must be felt as agreeable. Such feelings are governed by the standard of the objective determinants. As such they are genuine, and represent the total visible feeling-function.


Furthermore, social skills are not uniquely a Fe trait. Many or most extraverts possess these skills. Even Introverts can be adept at social skills. This is all regardless if Fe is in their functional stack or not.


----------



## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

I'd sooner argue that Fi is about value than Fe, mostly because Fi seems to be about what YOU believe and feel, where Fe seems to be your ability to tune into what others are feeling. At least that's what I've been getting from reading about it. In such a case, there would be a distinction between social skills and values. A person can be a sociopath and have excellent perception of other people's emotions. Or they can be entirely unable to connect to others, but have excellent values.


----------



## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

Technically, it would be independent of a type and can't its symptoms kind of vary person to person? At least a few people (incl. my grandma) think I have it and I might, though I've also been a bit skeptic of the diagnosis.


----------

