# Type my sweet, hard-to-type husband :)



## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

Prelude: He is extremely PROUD of the fact that he is hard to type :dry:

1)What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?

He seems to be very balanced in terms of sensing/intuitive and thinking/feeling. We (both him and I together) have tried tests, we have tried comparing various functions, yet nothing seems to really fit. The three most likely types we keep coming back to are INFP (most likely), INTP (next likely), and ENTP (least likely of the three). He also shows strong sensing qualities; however, his ability to use intuition is extremely strong as well. I also see him using both Ne and Se; obviously both of which do not fit into a function order. We could REALLY use some input.

2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?
_
(From here on out, these are his answers)_ 
Acceptance, stability, and making life better in general for myself and others. I want to be comfortable with who I am, and I work best from a stable platform. I do not enjoy chaos or things that are out of control. Helping myself and others gives me reason to do what I do in life; why would I expend energy on work and volunteering if I could not help others? That is what really matters. Stuff and money are transient, when I’m dead, neither will have any lasting impact, what I’ve done to help others may.

3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.

Usually when I’m playing music or doing sound (he is a sound technician for fun). I feel best when I can make the music work and everything comes together in a perfect mix. When I play drums, it occurs when the music works properly as a group and everybody is having fun/performing well.

I also feel finest when I can perform doing things that are out of ordinary. Like at work, when my unusual way of performing makes the system better. 

4) What makes you feel inferior?

When I do something a weird way (instead of the normal way) and it doesn’t work.
Rejection is another thing that makes me feel inferior; I feel as if I’m not good enough.

5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)

I think about people; how my actions will affect them and benefit them. I have a tendency to be a pushover and help people before myself, so how I feel about a situation does not necessarily relate to the decision I will make. Pro and con lists do not help with decisiveness. 

6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?

I do like to have control of the outcome. The emphasis really depends on the project, but I like to do things the right way. I am not overly obsessed with the details, but the purity of the finished project matters. Unnecessary steps should be avoided, and the process should be as efficient as possible. When it comes to projects, I always look for the best way to get it done. The prescribed way of doing things is not always the most efficient, so I look at ways to cut costs, reduce time, increase productivity, etc. I never follow a checklist.

7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it? 

I would probably say my wedding this last summer. Everything went nicely, it was beautiful, it left a mark on people’s hearts. Neither my wife or I worried if things went perfectly, and it helped us relax and enjoy the day to its fullest extent.

8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)

Again, it depends on what. Like with learning a new type of keyboard, it is hands on because that is how keyboards work… you use your hands. But I’m not sitting back and reading about this particular activity. I’m not being overly analytical; I’m just typing and figuring it out. For learning new methods, it’s all about experimentation; what’s logical, what’s worked before, what is going to work this time, and seeing what works. I’m not good with memorization; I like to look at a process as a whole and how everything comes together at once. 

For instance I struggled with learning languages in school; it was all vocabulary memorization. I would have preferred to understand how they put their sentences together, the syntax, the culture. I need to know the rules of how the sentence structure is before the language makes sense. Start with the theoretical approach of how the language works itself, then start teaching the vocabulary.

9) How organized do you to think of yourself as?

Moderately. I don’t enjoy chaos, but I can withstand a bit of a mess. Cleaning is not relaxing nor enjoyable, but I do it because I don’t want to live in a pigsty either. My home is not excessively clean, but it wouldn’t embarrass other people if they were to come over. I always wish it were better to have a specific spot for every tool, every item; I could not maintain that framework, however. I cannot put things back where I found them.

10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?

Probably find the principles behind it and apply it to my framework of knowledge to see if it makes sense. I’m not overly skeptical of information; I tend to take information for as is until I find evidence to prove it false otherwise. That, or if it doesn’t agree with something in my natural framework, whether it be knowledge or moral framework. Then I either have to change what I think or declare it false. With knowledge I have a tendency to be willing to change my thoughts sooner than my moral framework, but I am capable of doing both.

11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?

The first; I always try to make sure others are taken care of and are ok before myself. It doesn’t necessarily have to relate to a group, but I enjoy taking care of problems and solving people’s issues. I recognize it is important to do what I think also, my wife helps keep me in perspective so I don’t get weighed down by fixing everybody else first.

12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?

I think before I speak; if I don’t I always say something stupid! It’s safer to filter. I have a tendency to prefer one-on-one before group. Oddly enough though I’d rather address an auditorium of 1000 people than a group of 10

13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speak more than words?

I like to know where I’m jumping first so I don’t land myself in a sticky situation. For the second, I’m not sure. People can fake either one; I prefer to take the time to get to know somebody and see how they respond. Some people’s actions might mean more, and other people may mean more by their words. It depends on the person.

14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?

I don’t care about the show; if my best friends call I will go and spend time with them. I can always get a copy of the show later, it’ll be waiting for me. 

15) How do you act when you're stressed out?

I have a tendency to control as much as I can around me. Stress occurs when I feel a lack of control over the environment; it doesn’t necessarily have to be my control, though. I take control when there isn’t control, but it doesn’t come naturally to me. In emergency situations I become very calm and deliberate; I hide how I feel until later. But the situation will significantly wipe me out later.

16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?

They are stupid! No, I mean people who I perceive as not wanting to learn or know; those who have no curiosity with the world around them. It doesn’t matter the subject, but I have more respect for those who strive to grow in knowledge, rather than people who are results-only oriented. It could emotional or logical. 

17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?

Anything technical; radio, computers, music… wait, let’s just broaden to anything I’m good at .

18) What kind of things do you pay the least attention to in your life?

Drama; I just ignore it. I don’t see the point in getting upset over things that are outside of my control and I don’t like to cause other people problems. Otherwise I would say politics and sports; neither hold my interest and I don’t understand how people can get so obsessed over them.

19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? ? What would your friends never say about your personality ?

Funny, charming, intelligent, intriguing, weird, responsible, and honest. I don’t think there is anything wrong about those perceptions though I do know I am more emotional than I let on. They would never say I’m loud and like being the center of attention. 

20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing?

Lately it’s less than I used to because I’m busy with work. I would ride my bike, read various sites on the internet, rest/chill out, maybe hang out with friends and family if they are available


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## marckos (May 6, 2011)

INFJ, what do you think?


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

marckos said:


> INFJ, what do you think?


If we looked at strict letters, I see it. But when you look at the functions, I don't. He doesn't strike me as a Dom Ni user nor a Fe user as he is very tolerant of other people and is not dominating unless it is absolutely possible. INFJ was actually my first guess, but he did not agree with the definition much. What parts indicate Ni and Fe? Can you show me specifically stands out?

ETA- He agrees with Fe, not so sure about Ni. We are going to do a little more looking into it.


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## marckos (May 6, 2011)

> I would probably say my wedding this last summer. Everything went nicely, it was beautiful, it left a mark on people’s hearts. Neither my wife or I worried if things went perfectly, and it helped us relax and enjoy the day to its fullest extent.


Fe



> Helping myself and others gives me reason to do what I do in life; why would I expend energy on work and volunteering if I could not help others? That is what really matters. Stuff and money are transient, when I’m dead, neither will have any lasting impact, what I’ve done to help others may.


Si/Ni + Fe.

W


> hen I play drums, it occurs when the music works properly as a group and everybody is having fun/performing well.


More Fe.



> The first; I always try to make sure others are taken care of and are ok before myself. It doesn’t necessarily have to relate to a group, but I enjoy taking care of problems and solving people’s issues. I recognize it is important to do what I think also, my wife helps keep me in perspective so I don’t get weighed down by fixing everybody else first.


Fe.



> I think about people; how my actions will affect them and benefit them. I have a tendency to be a pushover and help people before myself, so how I feel about a situation does not necessarily relate to the decision I will make. Pro and con lists do not help with decisiveness.





> Fe.
> 
> Again, it depends on what. Like with learning a new type of keyboard, it is hands on because that is how keyboards work… you use your hands. But I’m not sitting back and reading about this particular activity. I’m not being overly analytical; I’m just typing and figuring it out. For learning new methods, it’s all about experimentation; what’s logical, what’s worked before, what is going to work this time, and seeing what works. I’m not good with memorization; I like to look at a process as a whole and how everything comes together at once.
> 
> For instance I struggled with learning languages in school; it was all vocabulary memorization. I would have preferred to understand how they put their sentences together, the syntax, the culture. I need to know the rules of how the sentence structure is before the language makes sense. Start with the theoretical approach of how the language works itself, then start teaching the vocabulary.


So much Ti. Not a sensor. could be INTP-ENTP-INFJ-ENFJ.

Is He an Introvert or an Extrovert?


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

I would assume leaning more Introverted, but he just completely confounds me. We listened to the Ni vs Ne on Youtube and he found he agreed with bits and pieces of both. So then I pulled the INFJ vs INFP and he did the same thing (I do two of Ni, two of Ne; do a few off of Se, a few off Si). The only one we can seem to agree with is that he does use Fe over Fi... but then putting him into the INTP/ENTP category seems a bit off too. His father is INTP but is so unhealthy that the Ne is taking him to places that fail, which my husband can easily see and thinks is pointless. And my husband doesn't strike me as having Fe in his third or fourth function.

This is why we wanted help. But it is good to know what you think and what you pulled from the conversation.

I think the problem is he struggles to see where he leans, because most of the functions don't clearly stand out for him. We use all of them, yes... but he seems to be more balanced than the average person if that makes sense.

Well, at least we are more clear on his MBTI versus his Enneagram. THAT is a nightmare... he doesn't really fit in there either.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

Pardon the double post. 

Based on functions and everything he uses it would seem then ENTP fits closest. But the problem is he still strikes me as more of an introvert than extravert- but he could not be INTP because he that doesn't seem to match his very mature sense of emotional intelligence. Sensing would have to be his weakest. Which concludes the Ne, Ti, Fe, Si order most likely. So if we are so alike, why is it that I am better with both Ne and Si compared to him? Argghhhh. 

Would it make any help to say he sees no benefit in personality theory?


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## marckos (May 6, 2011)

Finaille said:


> I
> Well, at least we are more clear on his MBTI versus his Enneagram. THAT is a nightmare... he doesn't really fit in there either.


Is he going to do the Enneagram Test?


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

marckos said:


> Is he going to do the Enneagram Test?


I suspect he is close to mine; probably 2w1 9w1 6w5. I believe I saw a lot of 2, 4, 5, 6, and 9 in his results.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

2) Don't like chaos or things that are out of control? That just jumps at me as Fe Si... but by no means certain. Focus on real things in the real world, and the well-being of the community. I see more focus on procedure here than intuition (not distinct)... it's about what you do really more than what you do symbolically.

3) Approach to music is distinctly F... group-orientation hints Fe. Your way is unusual how?

4) I don't know what you mean by unusual so I can't comment.

5) Holy Fe, batman! However, I've found that 'pushover' Fe is often not dominant. That is just anecdotal, though.

6) Why? What does this prove about you?

7) Fe dom or tert .... still not sure on the Ni or Si question... I really want to see some solid evidence of Ni before committing to it.

8) There does seem to be some reliance on Ni here. "I know I will just figure it out." That faith in ones own introverted intuition denotes a strong position.

9) That level of scatter brain is unusual for any Pi type... but less unusual for Ni types. The high placement of your Fe makes a Pe type seem very unlikely.

10) Applying new ideas to a framework hints Ni. Supported by "not overly skeptical of information..... until I prove it false otherwise" which is distinctly Te and probably in a weak position (but less likely to be inferior). "Natural framework" screams Ni. I want to copy this bit down to show to people as a 'this is what Ni looks like' snippet. I envision Ni in my mind as a big ball inside of the person, meticulously constructed.... information comes in and is fitted to the ball and other parts culled as they fit or do not. Aspects of the ball are then presented informatively as if they were 'simply truth'. Very Ni and it is striking to me that you would so clearly describe it. 

11) Fe group-orientation... with a somewhat 'highfalutin' tone (Ni). Such tendancy towards the speech and action of martyrdom is a hallmark of IxFJ (and to a lesser extent ExFJ).. the only real difference being how abstract the syntax is.

12) Ni will care more if what they say is 'stupid'... but that is pretty anecdotal/stereotypical. I wonder why you'd prefer 1k or 100.

13) Is this INFJ fear of betrayal? Am I reading into this? The carefulness described here is IxFJ and more usually INFJ.

14) Nothing new here.

15) This is literally right out of the textbook for Se inferior: "Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity." I mean, textbook: http://personalitycafe.com/intj-articles/76896-recognizing-inferior-function-intj.html

16) A soft NJ answer... all my NJ friends would answer the same way (as would some of other types I suppose) with varying levels of severity.

17) Nice. Interesting, but certainly not enough to dislodge INFJ at this point.... especially since it's your chosen field and seems oriented around Ni competency. You probably feel, like many NJs, that you could potentially do anything you really set your mind to... with a distinct Ni vibe. I've never met an NJ who didn't feel this way... belief in ones intellectual capacity is so very much a part of the Ni psyche. Could you be a <insert occupation with implied capability standard>? "Yes, I am -capable- of that." NJ through and through.

18) Skip... this seems like most any type might feel this way for one reason or another. 

19) Nothing wrong with being exceptional. NJs want to be exceptional and this desire is often fulfilled.

20) Generic response.

If you aren't an INFJ, I am the Queen of England and you are an ENFJ.... and if you aren't an NFJ, I am Genghis Khan's 27th illegitimate son's oldest brother-in-law.

I wish I could say you were hard to type... but you are no ISFP: the real foxes.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

ISTJ. The healthier and more well-rounded they are, the more their inner INFP (Fi-Ne) comes out. He sounds clearly SJ (his high value of stability), most likely Si-dom (his basic desire to do things the right way), and I hear strong Te in there (his structured way of thinking). Good ISTJs can strongly resemble Fe-types in their concern for others. (My dad is one of those.) He sounds like a thinker with a heart. He highly values knowledge: a strong trait of ISTJ.

The way he responds well in emergencies but finds them exhausting is exactly my dad: could be typical of ISTJ. My dad also loves, _loves _music. I see lots of signs it could be your husband's type. I'd look into it, but look at the functions: the profile descriptions for ISTJ are absolutely awful. Real ISTJ's are much sweeter, much more sensitive, and not as cold or rigid as described. Like most thinkers, they just prefer to approach things rationally and don't wear their hearts on their sleeves. ISTJs especially don't like drama and like things to be calm and peaceful.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I agree with @petitpèlerin 
Wants stability + amateur sound technician = ISTJ, lol
Nah, not really but he made me think quite early that he might be an ISTJ. ("maybe" ISFJ)

Answer to question 4 could be inferior Ne. Ne tries to reach out and gets smacked on the fingers by others so to speak.
The inferior function is the part that is the most personal and sensitive since it isn't a place of confidence, but rather a place of insecurity.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I agree with @petitpèlerin
> Wants stability + amateur sound technician = ISTJ, lol
> Nah, not really but he made me think quite early that he might be an ISTJ. ("maybe" ISFJ)
> 
> ...


He is definitely not ISFJ. He has a cousin who clearly is, he is a little more down to earth then she comes across. Also; his response to question three indicates he prefers doing things in a way that works, not necessarily doing them in the way that he is told to do it. I am Dom Ne myself; I would feel a lot of pride thinking out of the box and shame if I couldn't get it right my way as well. He recognizes people learn differently and he tries to respect that. 

My dad is ISTJ as well and shares much more concern over money and stuff. Also my dad struggles to see things outside of his way, while my husband is a little more flexible and not as volatile. He is able to learn from his mistakes remarkably fast. Would that signal enneagram differences? He just seems unusually rounded out for only being 24. Maybe I could see it in an older ISTJ man, but 24 seems to early to display what he does. Hubby said he would add more comments later.

@Owfin, you're an ISTJ I've seen plenty. Do you think he sounds like a legit ISTJ?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Finaille said:


> He is definitely not ISFJ. He has a cousin who clearly is, he is a little more down to earth then she comes across. Also; his response to question three indicates he prefers doing things in a way that works, not necessarily doing them in the way that he is told to do it. I am Dom Ne myself; I would feel a lot of pride thinking out of the box and shame if I couldn't get it right my way as well. He recognizes people learn differently and he tries to respect that.
> 
> My dad is ISTJ as well and shares much more concern over money and stuff. Also my dad struggles to see things outside of his way, while my husband is a little more flexible and not as volatile. He is able to learn from his mistakes remarkably fast. Would that signal enneagram differences? He just seems unusually rounded out for only being 24. Maybe I could see it in an older ISTJ man, but 24 seems to early to display what he does. Hubby said he would add more comments later.
> 
> @_Owfin_, you're an ISTJ I've seen plenty. Do you think he sounds like a legit ISTJ?


Well, it's not you we are typing, so I'd prefer it if you didn't use that as a fact.
You also work as a blockade between us and his mind. Giving us 3 subjectives when we try and type him (ours, yours and his) not to forget that you take to his defense when you don't need to which also, diminishes the possibility to type him.

He also states


> I also feel finest when I can perform doing things that are out of ordinary. Like at work, when my unusual way of performing makes the system better.


His satisfaction of improving the system is very Te-ish

This is also very much Si + Te


> Probably find the principles behind it and apply it to my framework of knowledge to see if it makes sense. I’m not overly skeptical of information; I tend to take information for as is until I find evidence to prove it false otherwise. That, or if it doesn’t agree with something in my natural framework, whether it be knowledge or moral framework. Then I either have to change what I think or declare it false. With knowledge I have a tendency to be willing to change my thoughts sooner than my moral framework, but I am capable of doing both.


Even tho a lot of what he is saying could be signs of being a Te dom - ESTJ.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Finaille said:


> @_Owfin_, you're an ISTJ I've seen plenty. Do you think he sounds like a legit ISTJ?


No, I don't really see him describing a preference for looking at how he sees something like a Si dominant would. I think he's a Fe dominant, an ESFJ. He focuses on evaluations and more specifically (as in more specifically Fe and not Fi), the values being assigned to things, rather than his own opinions or the perspective of who's looking at it.


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## Jabberbroccoli (Mar 19, 2011)

Definitely a Fe user, but not an extrovert. I thought I saw more Si than Ni, but I may be wrong. IxFJ, I'd guess. Probably not a Te-Dom, seems significantly more Fe oriented.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Well, it's not you we are typing, so I'd prefer it if you didn't use that as a fact.
> You also work as a blockade between us and his mind. Giving us 3 subjectives when we try and type him (ours, yours and his) not to forget that you take to his defense when you don't need to which also, diminishes the possibility to type him.
> 
> He also states
> ...


And this is what I was afraid of. I mean, I see your points (though I can say my husband does not agree). It's turned into a perception thing. As somebody who uses Te (though poorly), he is one who is very internal with his thought process; it is not verbalized, there is no step-by-step manner of thought. While he does enjoy success (who doesn't?) it is all about how it feels right for him. There is no perfect, absolute way of doing things and the outcome always varies based on the input. You pulled out two quotes that indicate Te, while another member saw strong Ti. It is clear he uses Fe a lot, as obviously his desire to help others grow is very apparent; yet you know that an ISTJ nor an ESTJ uses Fe; they use Fi. He doesn't see helping others as a duty, but as a desire. 

Yes, I defend him. But I see him every single day. You do not. If both my husband and myself can look at the same data and feel as if it doesn't fit, then it is doubtful it does. You seem to doubt what I, as is wife, says. I'm not posting information without his knowing so! I wouldn't post 'he disagrees' without him verifying that. He said clearly to me that he sees himself as an NF and that the definitions fit better. The only reason I post is because I have a stronger grasp of functions because MBTI is not his interest. If he feels like a definition works or doesn't, whether it be by function or letter order, I will support him. If you say ISTJ, I am going to compare data from what I know of ISTJs and ESTJs to see if there is a match in behavior. As I know healthy and unhealthy of both types, there is not a match. 

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what you have said and I can see where you are coming from based off the couple examples you gave. But my husband has the right to disagree, which he does. I can see where he is coming from as well. I'm not terribly sure what he is exactly. I know a lot of the confusion likely stems because he desires to be different than everybody else, and he fully understands the concept that he uses all functions to a degree. Anyways, no hard feelings.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Finaille said:


> He also shows strong sensing qualities; however, his ability to use intuition is extremely strong as well.




I greatly distinguish skill from personality. Like I just posted in another thread a few minutes ago, ability to intuit has little to do with personality. I know S types who can intuit very strongly, but true intuitive personality types often strike them as _not their sort_, meaning too fluffy, too head in the clouds, full of ideas without putting them into practice. But when push comes to shove, they'll be excellent at intuiting. Intuiting is just a matter of forming connections. Whether these are drawn between external things (ideas, objects, etc) or to one's own storehouse of impressions, in the sense of extracting a personal picture/meaning determines Ne or Ni respectively. I'm sure you know this mostly, but frankly I think there are too many varying pictures of these things, and I like to clarify what I mean from the start.




> so how I feel about a situation does not necessarily relate to the decision I will make




This _strongly_ speaks against Fi being higher than tertiary in a lot of ways. That said, it does _not_ necessarily speak to Fe-use being prominent. 




> It doesn’t matter the subject, but I have more respect for those who strive to grow in knowledge, rather than people who are results-only oriented.




Very unlikely a Te-dom would make this statement, but it doesn't rule out Te being higher up than tertiary for sure. 

At this point, I am willing to say ISTJ with a fair helping of Fe or ISFJ with a fair helping of Te. 

There are huge indicators that Si is high up there, and there is definitely a little Fi (for instance, things like describing how he really doesn't have much respect for those who don't take in knowledge with some curiosity. That's the sort of statement I will _never, ever, ever_ make.) And how he approaches taking care of people does speak to some Fi. 

He is people-oriented, but that does not mean he is a big Fe-user. Fe is a reasoning skill. It's about reading and understanding and concluding and mentally organizing the environment via feelings, generally involving people. Helping people in itself is more of an Fi-value. Someone like me with Fe reasonably high up there is not even necessarily going to feel strongly about helping them, but the interest in connecting and understanding and engaging are very high. 

I doubt Ni. I'd say IS_J with well-developed intuition _skill_ but not necessarily a defining feature of the personality from first reading.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Finaille said:


> It is clear he uses Fe a lot, as obviously his desire to help others grow is very apparent; yet you know that an ISTJ nor an ESTJ uses Fe; they use Fi. He doesn't see helping others as a duty, but as a desire.




How is it clear he uses Fe a lot? Helping people as a desire has absolutely nothing to do with Fe.

I agree he may not be ISTJ, I'm not for rapid conclusions. But you cannot conclude that he's NOT ISTJ based on behavior, unless you want to use a totally different typing system. 

The only way we'll get closer in this fashion is if you look at how we're responding to things he's said, and clarify with additional information that we don't know to suggest how we could see his personality differently. I was once typed as an IS_J, and I'm not one, but Si runs pretty strongly in me, and so there were actually pretty good arguments made. The only way I got to my type was by bringing in clarifications.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Finaille said:


> While he does enjoy success (who doesn't?) it is all about how it feels right for him.




Yes, but he clearly said he has a tendency to _not_ do what feels right for him in face of his environment (that is, depending on what others around him want)

This doesn't speak much to MBTI function use, so much as perhaps enneagram or something else. 

I have a hard time putting Fi high up there with that sort of statement. I'm not going to conclude what IS high up there based on it, but as you notice, I'm more trying to say what seems very unlikely as a top function.

Your husband has every right to disagree, but if it's based on comparing himself with others, that can lead to heavy mistyping. There are many other things affecting how type manifests. The enneagram is a highly subtle, complex system which describes many things the MBTI system doesn't at all directly get at, and if it can take people years to get at their type with enneagram (and assuming, which it is safe to do, that enneagram does affect behavior) I can't say there's anything safe about concluding based on comparisons.

We'd need specifics on _why_ he thinks those comparisons reflect actual cognitive difference.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

bearotter said:


> Yes, but he clearly said he has a tendency to _not_ do what feels right for him in face of his environment.
> 
> This doesn't speak much to MBTI function use, so much as perhaps enneagram or something else.
> 
> I have a hard time putting Fi high up there with that sort of statement. I'm not going to conclude what IS high up there based on it, but as you notice, I'm more trying to say what seems very unlikely as a top function.[/COLOR]


That's good that you are willing to eliminate what works. As we see from this thread though, we all have completely different perceptions on what he does. 

If you look at the statement about what feels right for him, that was more about him sacrificing his needs for another person. Not wanting to do something is not a deterrent for him; he has a strong tendency to help others before he helps himself (to a level that can grow unhealthy- I help keep him in check!). 

As for Fe as a definition, these are things I see him displaying:



> Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others.
> 
> The "social graces," such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling.
> 
> The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure.


Now I don't think Fe is his dominant necessarily, but I see him doing these things frequently. He has a much better grasp of social graces than I (a Fi user, in which do not always come across as genuine to me). 

So what makes you think Ne is out of the question? And can you explain his use of Si a little better? @Owfin, you stated you don't think he uses dominant Si and I've always viewed my husband as more of a weaker-Se user myself (though on an extremely auditory level- but sound is his art).


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> I can't be of assistance with typing here, there isn't enough information. what i would suggest to you is leave it be for now. Let your husband spend some time on the forums, 6 mts + doing lots of posting. When you're put on the spot filling out surveys it isn't as natural as random postings. This way people will get to know his interest, maybe even see different sides of who he is. Personally i find it easier to type people once they open up to different topics and ideas. I highly doubt you can type a person through text by one or two post, heck most people can't type people they've known for years personally.Give it time, let him become a regular poster, his true and natural colours will be exposed over time. He will probably find a place where he is most comfortable posting also, and likely find a type he understands and relates with more than others.


That I do agree with. I think once people understand where he is coming from and how he thinks based on his posts, we will reach a better answer. Obviously he is not clear based on a test and questionnaire. 

Thanks for your help. See you around the forums!


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

stone100674 said:


> @_Finaille_ I didn't say that I thought he was ISTJ: I said I agreed with the instances where @_pinkrasputin_ saw Si and Te in what was presented.
> I would like the two questions I asked answered before I even consider anything further. *His *answers to those question will help me to determine if I am using my subjective lens or not.
> 
> tentatively I will say this:
> ...


I've heard that that goes quite much for ISJs in general.
My dad loves sound as well and he can notice even the smallest problems with the sound. No one I know has that ability with sound. It is as if he can hear the difference in the smallest things.
Same goes for video. He can start to point out why a movie isn't in HD, even tho it's an HD channel and stuff like that.

I guess that is when Si takes collected information and uses it in the present. He knows how it should be thanks to Si and so he can notice when it's even just a little bit off.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Whoa. What happened here? Why are people arguing with the typee and his wife? First of all, they're the two people who know him best. They've clearly put a lot of time into understanding the functions and seem no less knowledgeable about them than anyone else here. Finaille has been a member here for over two years. Arguing with the person you're trying to help accomplishes nothing, since it's their understanding that needs to develop in order for their type to be discovered. @_Finaille_, you haven't been remotely a pain in the butt. I don't know why some people are talking down to you.

One thing I see happening here in this thread, as well as in others, that appears to be a mistake to me, is trying to break down behaviors into too-specific functions. A really general example would be loving music. One could say that listening to music is an Se experience, and one would be correct, but that doesn't mean that someone who loves to listen to music is necessarily an Se-using type. And not everyone who makes music is an ISFP. There are musicians of nearly all types; probably of every type. Anyway, my point is that when typing someone it's easy to dissect details and make judgments on them, but that doesn't work: what matters is the whole picture of who the person is. The most important signs of type are in things like their deepest desires, their basic way of relating to other people, how they like to work, what they enjoy most and what causes them stress, those things.

Yes, we all use all eight functions. I even use Si and Te. <shudder> MBTI is about which functions one prefers and how they compose a basic type. There is some overlap: As a Ti-dom I actually have some decent use of Fi, and my good Ne-dom friend show some real competence in Se. I don't think analyzing all those overlaps is particularly fruitful. I think Finaille and untyped have been reasonable and clear in ascertaining that he prefers Fe, Ti, and Se. Let's work with that, or else give them some simple, clear evidence why we disagree, so that they can see it as clearly as we (hypothetically) do.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Finaille said:


> That I do agree with. I think once people understand where he is coming from and how he thinks based on his posts, we will reach a better answer. Obviously he is not clear based on a test and questionnaire.
> 
> Thanks for your help. See you around the forums!


It's funny... after reading all this discordant back-and-forthiness ... all I could think was, 'how is the husband reacting to all this?' since his reaction might help determine his type. HA! You are all just rats running blindly in my maze and you don't even know it! 

I'd like to say that giving it time is a good idea... but I've always been the type that when I can't decide something... I just flip a coin, but not to follow it's result but because I find that once I am forced to make a decision and commit to something that I immediately realize what I really wanted all along... and then just go and do that. I guess I mean to say that there is nothing wrong with putting on some skin to see if it fits or not. Best way to know if you like football is to play it. A good way to know if one is an ISTJ is to jump into it and see if it works. I remember 15 years ago when I first learned this, we typed an ISTJ friend of mine a... INTJ? INFJ? I don't remember... but an Ni type for sure... and we just went on an on about it like that was the fact. About three months later we realized she was an ISTJ and, being a naive bunch of Ne kids we decided to 'break the news' to her gently (HAHA!! I know, I know). So we sat her down and told her like it was this big thing... and she said, quite matter of factly (almost condescendingly?) "Oh I know. It was just fun to see how long it would take you guys to figure it out. I take great pleasure in those rare moments that you are just plain wrong." ...and we had a good laugh. Branding her incorrectly turned out to be a great way to type her as she immediately started noticing all the ways she didn't fit. 

Being typed wrong is hardly a crime... if it were I think a lot of people on this forum would find themselves on the wrong side of the law. HA!


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@*petitpèlerin *


@Finaille



> Finaille has been a member here for over two years. Arguing with the person you're trying to help accomplishes nothing, since it's their understanding that needs to develop in order for their type to be discovered. @_Finaille_, you haven't been remotely a pain in the butt. I don't know why some people are talking down to you.


OK, I'm not trying to be hardnosed here, but I want to be equitable. For one thing, in one of the posts of mine @Finaille responded to, she was asking me to justify why I'm right, and why I say her husband prefers what I say he does. _Yet where she was responding__, I had indicated no such claim as to what he seems to prefer_. 

Where she asked me how I could suggest both Te and Fe, look back clearly midway in the thread, and I acknowledge there was a very good case for using Fe better than Te.

I found words were being put in my mouth. The only time I expressed a strong sentiment @Finaille is wrong is when she tried to place everyone squarely in a camp. I _do not belong to a camp_ until I really see enough information to conclude. 

I'm ultimately happy that they conclude whatever type they think fits, but my argumentation begins when someone starts disagreeing with things I never even claim for certain. At the start of the thread, I was thinking ISTJ is possible, and several others saw a case too. But I never stuck fast to that. 

I mean, sometimes I seriously wonder if I make a long post, people assume it's way more argumentative than it is.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Furthermore, I agree with the point that it's not these little details that determine the type. That's _exactly_ what I was getting at. That there could have been Si, Se, Ni, etc in that story, but it's not conclusive. We can only dissect these to help the wife and her husband with some insights on what to make of things. 

What there needs to be more of is dialogue. Frankly, I need to stop hearing either wife or husband ask me to say why I differ from them, because _I don't disagree_. I haven't even concluded yet. That's what was frustrating to me. 

We need help getting to know both parties better, otherwise of course we're blind. That's the whole fun. If we can get to know a new person, because it's often a new journey each time, typing someone, even if the principles remain the same each time. And they aren't helping us if they claim I say things I didn't.

Also, despite the suggestion to work with the Fe, Ti and Se, I mean, really, people are presenting very good cases of seeing some Si and Te pretty strongly, and if those seem less fundamental to the wife and husband, that's fine, but to claim it on a typing thread without justification makes it hard for those typing. 

Heck, maybe the husband feels he's INFP, and he might be, who knows. But nonetheless, if we're all to be any part of the equation of determining the type, we need to be included in the dialogue that leads to leaps in favor of a certain type. Otherwise, we'll just go back and point in a seemingly hardnosed way to evidence (strong) of the other functions present, and what else can we do without more dialogue...


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

bearotter said:


> I found words were being put in my mouth. The only time I expressed a strong sentiment @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=12051" target="_blank">Finaille</a></i></span> is wrong is when she tried to place everyone squarely in a camp. I _do not belong to a camp_ until I really see enough information to conclude.
> 
> I'm ultimately happy that they conclude whatever type they think fits, but my argumentation begins when someone starts disagreeing with things I never even claim for certain. At the start of the thread, I was thinking ISTJ is possible, and several others saw a case too. But I never stuck fast to that.


I apologize; what I was trying to say is that the impression comes across as in people wanting to be 'right' in typing my husband. I don't think they have to belong to a specific camp-per se- people are going to want to see what they want to see. Some will be more correct than others, and I never told you specifically you were wrong. @petitpèlerin did something that was very helpful for me and dissected everything as a whole, then described where the functions may be coming from and why. Now, I may disagree with some points. But I was appreciative that he was thorough and provided follow up. It comes across as more engaging; more bouncing ideas off of one another. Maybe it was your tone @bearotter, that came across as pushy and insistent on wanting to type him as an STJ of some sort. But I am quick to apologize as well; I did not mean to come across as calling you wrong whatsoever and I was not trying to be argumentative. 

We did do more work away from the forum tonight. We came to some better conclusions on to what he is not and looking at inferior functions helped significantly. But I will give my husband the time to develop himself on here and sufficiently determine for himself. Whether I agree or disagree, it's ultimately his call. Whether the people who have helped agree with him, well, that's not my business. 

I did want you all to watch this. This is our wedding documentary. I know it's not everything and a lot of topics are Si-related (as we are delving into past recall), but I just thought a personal perspective would be beneficial.

[video=facebook;10101412956012730]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10101412956012730[/video]

Please let me know if it works ok.


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## untypable (Oct 23, 2012)

Hehe, well after reading much discussion about myself I get the following feelings: 1. y'all don't have enough of a picture of who I am yet to truly help me (because I haven't yet provided all that much information, just one story and a few survey answers). And 2. I'm learning an awful lot in a real hurry because this is NOT one of my areas of expertise. Sohck, here we are . I do feel I left out something ~critcal~ in my description of how I get a lot of enjoyment out of mixing music, and that extremely critical bit came to mind while reading the discussion. In music, whether playing, mixing, or listening, I get emotionally released and freed. I feel when performing or when mixing that I am able to communicate the emotion inside my head (which feels to me to be too complex or strong to put into words) to others around me - which, it's not normal for me to communicate emotion as much otherwise. You can almost always tell what mood I'm in based on what's playing from my music collection. 

Anyway, my wife is posting a video we put together for our wedding which may lend more perspective on who I am. What I'll be interested to see is the discussion that follows because I've seen the video 1000 times and have not yet looked at it critically to observe personality aspects of myself 

Finally, Sorry I am unable to post more frequently, I work on computers all day right now which means that though I may be sitting in front of a computer when I get home, I'm not necessarily ~doing~ anything (its mostly a bad habit..).

PS: as for my rection to some of the debate going on, I suppose my first instict is to say "is it really worth getting worked up over?" and then my next instinct would be to disappear from the forum if it gets too exciting. Not saying I'm going away, just adding this comment


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

@_untypable_ @_Finaille_ 
Thank you for sharing that video, right now I am a little tired so I will watch it tomorrow in full.



untypable said:


> I get emotionally released and freed. I feel when performing or when mixing that I am able to communicate the emotion inside my head


Thank you for this. Sometimes when I put my ear buds in and listen to music that I feel "connected" to and really enjoy, (like the two songs i sited before), I close my eyes and and am overwhelmed by the joy and euphoria that the music brings me. It makes me feel a rush of emotion in a way I can't without it. I can feel a full range of emotions depending on the song I am listening to. It gives me a connection to my emotions that I lack day to day without it. 

I put the spoiler there because I would prefer to hide what I am sharing here and have nobody but untypable and Finaille read it ( and maybe @_pinkrasputin_ ) but I fully realize that won't happen. The spoiler just makes me feel better about pressing submit.

* *




the reason I mention Stevie Ray Vaugn is because of the effect the blues has on me. Sometimes when I open my eyes there are tears streaming down my cheeks. I don't cry. The only reason I admit this is because I think it may help you.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_Finaille_, thank you for hearing me out 

I think I often get mistaken for much pushier than I am, due to my style of posting/discussion, where it's a little hard to tell what it is I'm getting at 

For one thing, by later on in the thread, I was pretty convinced he _does_ favor Fe over Te, and I even think I said that explicitly. But I wanted to keep the dialogue going, I guess.


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## Blazy (Oct 30, 2010)

I know an INTP very similar to what your husband posted. Overall, I gathered INTP with balanced F, and it reminded me a lot of my other INTP friends. They scored high Fi and Ti, but the order becomes more apparent with the result being INTP.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Awesome video! Great story! I enjoyed it.  And it gives lots of helpful information. One thing I liked learning is that one thing you (Finaille) like most about him is his interest in so many things. And of course it was extremely helpful to hear him talk about what attracted him to you, how your friendship and relationship developed, what he values in your relationship, etc.

One thing I was surprised about was how much more T he seems in person/video than has come through in writing. But that also fits with what he shared about how music is the way he expresses himself in a way he normally wouldn't know how to do, which could imply that his F is more hidden, as it is in T types. As a T, I do have very strong feelings, they just don't show much and expressing them does not come easily. "Untypable" gives me the impression of having a thinker's approach to relationships, not to mean that he doesn't feel deeply, but that for him marriage is a major life decision and it was important to him to find the right person using his brain as well as his emotions; and that he didn't do this by force but completely naturally. He seems to be highly competent in Ti. I could see him being a Ti-dom: specifically INTP, since I don't see high Se and I don't think he's an SP. He does seem to have typically-NT interests.

Thanks for posting the video. Great idea. I just wanted to share my response to it.

A few more thoughts:

Two things that I find helpful, which helped me finally type myself correctly are child types (what was he like as a child? children basically just use their top two functions) and inferior functions (there are some great articles you can google and find on this site called "form of the inferior").

Just to give an example, I thought I was an INFJ, because I see myself using Ni and Fe, and I could relate to the INFJs in the forum so well, but then I realized that I didn't use those functions as a child: I had no intuition and no sense of what others were feeling. As a child I was logical, analytical, argumentative (Ti), active, adventurous, and independent (Se). I'm sort of focused on Ni and Fe now because I'm in the process of developing them and becoming more competent in the more intuitive, spiritual, human, relational side of life. They're the functions I value now, hence why I thought at first that they were my dominant ones. Ti and Se are so natural to me I take them for granted.

If untypable were an INTP, the strong Ti would fit right, and the strong intuition (although it would be more Ne than Ni), and the Si that so many people are sure they see would be there in third position, and the Fe would be there. A mature/maturing INTP (or ISTP) is much more sensitive to others than the stereotypes describe, once their Fe begins to develop. The profile descriptions tend to be written as if we each have only two functions, neglecting the effects the third and fourth have on the personality when they begin to develop, so a healthy, well-balanced, and mature individual will be a) quite different than the descriptions, and b) hard to type. I think this is the case with untypable, whatever his type.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

petitpèlerin said:


> Awesome video! Great story! I enjoyed it.  And it gives lots of helpful information. One thing I liked learning is that one thing you (Finaille) like most about him is his interest in so many things. And of course it was extremely helpful to hear him talk about what attracted him to you, how your friendship and relationship developed, what he values in your relationship, etc.
> 
> One thing I was surprised about was how much more T he seems in person/video than has come through in writing. But that also fits with what he shared about how music is the way he expresses himself in a way he normally wouldn't know how to do, which could imply that his F is more hidden, as it is in T types. As a T, I do have very strong feelings, they just don't show much and expressing them does not come easily. "Untypable" gives me the impression of having a thinker's approach to relationships, not to mean that he doesn't feel deeply, but that for him marriage is a major life decision and it was important to him to find the right person using his brain as well as his emotions; and that he didn't do this by force but completely naturally. He seems to be highly competent in Ti. I could see him being a Ti-dom: specifically INTP, since I don't see high Se and I don't think he's an SP. He does seem to have typically-NT interests.
> 
> ...


Glad that you enjoyed the video  I watch it frequently. Mostly because I never want to forgot how it felt when he sang to me, you know? 

(As a side note, I always wonder what I come across as on that video ^^)

As for child types, he was the easygoing, communicative child. He was _not_ argumentative, in fact, he was very easy to deal with and never particularly tried to cause a lot of problems from what I've always been told. He talked early (and has kept talking ever since!). I'm always told a story of how when a child would try to steal a toy from him, instead of getting sad or mad at the other child, he just moved to something else. Not to say he wasn't bright though; he figured his way through a lot of problems himself. Another story I hear frequently is how his younger ISTP brother used to get my husband in a lot of trouble when they were kids. After a while my husband realized since he would get in trouble anyways, he would inflict pain on his brother so he wasn't getting in trouble for 'nothing'. I always thought that was amusing.

Another story I'm frequently told is about his mentor. Even though his mentor died many years ago, he still talks about him fondly and frequently. Apparently he mentor was a key networker; knew everybody and always had a name/reference if somebody needed help. And I guess his mentor had some crazy system for 'organizing' (which I don't understand, but hope to see someday). I'm sure my husband can explain best. My husband says if we ever have children and we have a boy, we would carry on his mentor's name (along with another good friend who lost most of his functions after a swimming accident). 

We looked at the inferior functions, or at least the descriptions based on the book I referenced from Google. He felt as if he did not particularly relate well to the inferior thinking or feeling functions (both extraverted and introverted) and he did not relate to inferior introverted sensing either. He described that at his worst he would have a tendency to shut down; away from his friendly, engaging personality. He isn't one to yell or threaten or go on an emotional rampage.

I know my husband would likely disagree with the INTP persona as we're pretty sure his father is... but I guess we should know better to do comparisons after I mentioned my thoughts about my own dad. But again, I'm sure that with time and more posts on PerC a type should come across as more obvious.


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

I have a few more questions for you @_untypable_ but if @_Finaille_ feels she has the answer that is fine too :happy:: It was said in the video that you had a difficult time deciding how you felt, that there were mixed signals. What was the root of your doubts? Did you waffle about what you felt? or were you afraid that it wasn't reciprocal?

Can you please tell me about your morals and values. What are they? Where do you think they came from?


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

Sorry I answer so much, I just have the tendency to be on :dry:


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

Finaille said:


> Sorry I answer so much, I just have the tendency to be on :dry:


I meant no disrespect at all, and I apologize if my words were taken that way. Your answers are both helpful and informative, and I appreciate your insight.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

stone100674 said:


> I meant no disrespect at all, and I apologize if my words were taken that way. Your answers are both helpful and informative, and I appreciate your insight.


No worries! Just explaining why I always answer and he does not ^^


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## ebullientcorner (Oct 5, 2012)

HI. I loved the video. It was adorable. @*Finaille*, you were beautiful! I think you came across as an ENFP, but I'm not sure if many but an ENFP would know it. I think we can become very er, it's not the right word, but 'shy' when we're talking about our deepest and closest personal emotions. If that makes sense. Congratulations on your marriage, I'm very happy for you! 

It's just one small opinion. It's also a rather meek one, but I also must distinctly vote against the INTP vibe, if only from my intuition. In seeing your interactions and the way your relationship is approached with each other...maybe I'm comparing it too much with my own ENFP/INTP marriage, but it was incredibly dissimilar.

I did get a _very _N / Ni vibe. The intricacies of N's are intrinsic for me, but not S's. Go figure.  
So, in my opinion, I think you can cross any S option off your list and I think you're looking at INXJ. 

INFP, and INTP I am certain he is not. 

When my husband and I started dating, we basically decided we were getting married within 2 weeks, and were married within. Hm. Started on Aug 1 and our wedding was Nov 20. Even his extreme logical process didn't overcome his own propensity for spontaneity. He had an idea for what he wanted before hand though. When we met, we just instantly knew, and neither of us questioned. Well, I did, but I found the only person I wanted to talk to about it was him- that cinched it.

The way you guys seems to process through things and come to conclusions together. Well, again, it's hard for me to put into words right now, but I just want to describe that it is very different from how my husband and I are. My husband is more free form. He's rational and methodical, but it's not with that ...I can't describe it. Maybe you can Finaille? Do you know what I'm saying? How your husband comes to decisions and tries to come to conclusions? I can describe my husband nut not yours, just that it's not like mine, and that it's not INTP. Lol.

Ne is always grabbing ideas and grabbing thoughts and rearranging and making new ideas and throwing them away and never connecting necessarily to any of them, or really caring about them, where Ni builds them carefully -that one idea - carefully, methodically. They bring things in to see if they fit, but it's not in that frenetic way of trying things on and throwing them off. It's like more of a holding them up in front of the mirror. Hahaha. I got that vibe from your husband. I could be wrong. What do you think?


Another thing was that when I started to hear him talk I thought "NT", but then... I really questioned that. There is a really really good chance he is an INFJ as he is an INTJ (especially as he sang in public 


Cheers love.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Finaille said:


> Glad that you enjoyed the video  I watch it frequently. Mostly because I never want to forgot how it felt when he sang to me, you know?
> 
> (As a side note, I always wonder what I come across as on that video ^^)
> 
> ...


I also watched the video, with my wife (lovely, btw... I suddenly wish my wife and I would have done the same... ), and her only input was the suggestion of xNxJ - which I tended to agree with. The first thing that hit me when I watched the video was "Holy crap... is he an INTP!?!" Then again, he seems to be really comfortable in Fe? So, comparisons and stereotypes are probably not going to be of much help. I can tell you on thing, that video did not give me any confidence in ISTJ as the answer... but in the ways it was 'ISTJ' it led me to INFJ more than INTP.

TLDR INFJ vs INTP: 
* *






My INFJ friend is a super duper Trekker and he would make stuff like Transporters, and cool Borg pod things... and they were impeccable. Impeccable is the key here... and INTP doesn't make impeccable things or aesthetic things. INTPs don't care if we do it right, or do it at all... since we are typically more than happy to know that it COULD work and move on. You'll see a lot of unfinished or half-finished projects from the INTP... but the INFJ will get on fewer projects and they will finish them and it will be AWESOME. This is Ne vs Ni. I remember my INFJ friend came as a Borg to a Halloween party and people couldn't get over how amazing (impeccable) he looked. They thought I looked pretty cool as a steam punk time traveler (before it was cool, even!) but I was quick to tell them that while the ideas were mostly mine, the meticulous aesthetic work was mostly my friends. If it were just me making the costume, it would have been very creative and cool but it would have been far from impeccable. I'd have looked like an idiot and, frankly, I would have been okay with that... since how the idea forms in my imagination is mostly all that matters. My INFJ friend is very concerned about the people around him, with a very strong Fe. 

He is, however, very technical. He worked at Staples and he was a god among men. No one knew that place better. He could find anything, tell you anything about any of it, he was fixing things (not slipshod like I'd have done it, but thorough and impeccable), he was just... perfect. It wasn't quite like an ISTJ in that it wasn't about recollection as much as it was about intellect. If he didn't know where something was, he'd make great intuitive leaps about where it might be and was usually right. He took pride in this. I imagine him at Radio Shack and I think people would come from miles around to meet the Guru. I think this is an ISTJ/INTJ thing typically, but my INFJ friend clearly proves its an INFJ thing too. INTPs can be Gurus as well... but they will much more quickly bore of it since they get less of an ego boost out of it. INTPs will also tend to rely on their own ability to work through a problem more than instructions or more sensible procedures or even intuitive leaps. We are more interested in coming up with new processes than perfecting 'correct' processes... which further lends to our lack of impeccability. 

Harmony means EVERYTHING to my friend and he has always felt he was the 'harmonizer'.. whether he wanted to be or not.... but the act of harmonizing wasn't stressful to him in and of itself, even in a difficult situation. For myself, an INTP, no matter how developed my Fe is, the *responsibility* to harmonize the world and people around me is *stressful *and while it matters to me and I want to see harmony in my environment, I will 1) probably suck at fixing it so I may rely on my systems design to fix it... offering helpful models to other people to solve their problems - because this will energize me and offer me a better ego reward. 2) may be a bit negatively emotional about it, as Fe can sometimes overwhelm me. I consider my Fe to be quite developed for an INTP, and I am very loving and all that, but it's always an expenditure - even if the returns are great. My INFJ friend is surrounded by people he helps and harmonizes and he loves it... whereas people see me as a loving person who wants to help... but I kinda gotta work at it and if it doesn't involve analysis and new ideas, it will probably leave me quite drained.




I guess a good question here is.... does using all this Fe drain you @_untypable_ ? Do you see the positive (systemic) results of it and use the energy from that to fuel your Fe? Or... does Fe just come naturally to you and does it intrinsically energize you? Did it come pre-packaged or something that you've had to develop?

After watching that video I'd have shot out INTJ as an idea if not for the Fe. Hrm.


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## Blazy (Oct 30, 2010)

Finaille, do you know his enneagram type? He sounds like an INTP type Nine. Nine's tend to be very diplomatic and value-oriented, and there are plenty of INTPs that are Nine's. Your INTP could be a very mature one, at that.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

untypable said:


> Been thinking a lot about the INTP personality type. I know my dad is the INTP type, completely always in the clouds preferring to learn something new and always theorize vs practically applying their newfound knowledge. He lives almost completely without boundaries (I'm told a common INTP trait). Recently he's been on a real "beat the system" binge, to the point of almost neglecting his family responsibilities. For example he's tried one system after another from all these different "mentors" or "experts" - all promise a quick way to get rich, and while it may be possible for a small percentage, he's never gotten so lucky. On more than one occasion great sums of money have been poured into 'education' for himself and yet things don't improve. It's like a gambler, spinning and spinning the roulette wheel, knowing that one of these times he could get lucky, its become an obsession. His thought process seems to be, "If I just knew this one more thing, or if I just learned more about what I already know, if I had better understanding, then I couold win." He also does tend to love to talk theoretical things with those he knows, even to the point of arguing like he's the only one who could possibly be right because he's got all this education... Obviously at the moment he's displaying rather unhealthy INTP tendencies.
> 
> I've gone after education extensively for subjects that I'm interested in but never to that extreme. Anyway all that to say I ~know~ I inherit INTP and probably ISFJ behaviors from my parents as those are their types. I'm fairly certain that I don't exactly match either of their types as any healthy child probably doesn't. I find getting to know new people or getting into a new group I know I am more approachable than my dad, 'warmer' is the term my wife used. Mom is the detail person, order, space, details, rules by the book, much more organized, opinionated sometimes, generally caring but she does like to have control of a given situation. INTP & ISFJ as you can imagine is a rather... interesting relationship to observe. In living with it since birth I realized an awful lot of communication and coping methods that do ~not~ work.
> 
> Anyway it seems this post has gotten a weeee bit A.D.D. tonight, sorry. Hopefully this offers some more insight .


If you only know one or two people of a type... and your experiences with those people are negative... you mustn't use them as a model of the type. It is bound to create a bias and an availability heuristic. Though you admit that his behavior is unhealthy and may not have a bias... er... I just figured I'd say that anyway.

Also, INTPs do not typically have any desire to turn to 'mentors' or 'experts' AT ALL - our ego pay-off comes from working things out ourselves... we lose that if we have answers handed to us. It's boring. If someone promised me a get rich scheme I'd ask how it worked, since getting rich is boring but learning how things work is interesting... How? Why? How? When? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Until they couldn't answer me anymore. If they were able to answer me, I'd start reworking and streamlining their system to make it work better. I'd then inform them of the inefficiencies and inconsistencies as I've observed them... offer a somewhat improved model (with a hasty but indiscernible visualization on a napkin or something) and immediately lose interest. If they tried to get me involved in it I'd be generally passive and uninterested... the only reason I'd cave is to avoid hurting their feelings (inferior Fe).

One interesting thing is that INTPs are much more focused on the system/algorithm that determined the conclusion rather than the conclusion itself. INTJ (and INFJ) will be much less concerned about defending their process as their conclusion... where INTP and ENTP is happy to abandon the conclusion but will defend the process to the death. It's what we are good at and what matters to us.

Additionally, I am an extremely warm person with everyone I meet and have ever met, ESPECIALLY my children, who I smother with affection. I find most INTPs to be warm, at least after you get past their analytical exterior, which (at least in mature INTPs) is pretty thin.

That isn't to say that your dad isn't an INTP... just that his actions are not typical of our type... though some of his motivations may be.

I still don't think you are an INTP, however. Though I could be wrong.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

arkigos said:


> Also, INTPs do not typically have any desire to turn to 'mentors' or 'experts' AT ALL - our ego pay-off comes from working things out ourselves... we lose that if we have answers handed to us. It's boring. If someone promised me a get rich scheme I'd ask how it worked, since getting rich is boring but learning how things work is interesting... How? Why? How? When? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Until they couldn't answer me anymore. If they were able to answer me, I'd start reworking and streamlining their system to make it work better. I'd then inform them of the inefficiencies and inconsistencies as I've observed them... offer a somewhat improved model (with a hasty but indiscernible visualization on a napkin or something) and immediately lose interest. If they tried to get me involved in it I'd be generally passive and uninterested... the only reason I'd cave is to avoid hurting their feelings (inferior Fe).


About his dad, it's not that he turns to experts or mentors. He finds people who basically have the same viewpoint as he already did, as he has a tendency to think his ideas are the smartest already. He thinks if these so called 'experts' can beat the system, why can't he? He has a lot of starts, but not a lot of finishes. His lack of ability to engage others and tendency to beat down another individual's ideas discouraging if he wants to beat the system. Without the charisma (good OR bad), realistic thinking, and the ability to follow through, he won't win. But the problem is while he just moves to another system, he doesn't realize how his actions hurt others and will not listen to additional reasoning (especially on an emotional level).


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Finaille said:


> About his dad, it's not that he turns to experts or mentors. He finds people who basically have the same viewpoint as he already did, as he has a tendency to think his ideas are the smartest already. He thinks if these so called 'experts' can beat the system, why can't he? He has a lot of starts, but not a lot of finishes. His lack of ability to engage others and tendency to beat down another individual's ideas discouraging if he wants to beat the system. Without the charisma (good OR bad), realistic thinking, and the ability to follow through, he won't win. But the problem is while he just moves to another system, he doesn't realize how his actions hurt others and will not listen to additional reasoning (especially on an emotional level).


Weird. I don't know if I have ever met an INTP like that. That is unfortunate. All that 'beat the system' stuff seems much more xSTP to me. Like I said, INTPs are notoriously uninterested in material gain. Not that he isn't an INTP, but I wonder what motivates this. INTPs don't beat down ideas or often think of ours as particularly superior (it's more our logical process that we defend)... we are like an idea free-for-all fun-zone! 

Does he really care about getting rich? Just how theoretical is he? Would he rather talk about a beat the system scheme or the abstract *minutia* of modern Cosmological models? I've met ONE INTP ever who I think would answer the former. 

Oh well, interesting anyway.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Yeah, right now I just see it too likely that Je is higher than Ji by far, and like it was said before, Pi is prominent too.
There would have to be major information given for me to shift from this angle. 

I also think ENTP is problematic, due to the so-called inferior-Si, maybe, but didn't @Finaille describe how supposedly on a holistic level, he finds his Si pretty weak?


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

arkigos said:


> Weird. I don't know if I have ever met an INTP like that. That is unfortunate. All that 'beat the system' stuff seems much more xSTP to me.


I'm enjoying learning about the inner working of INTPs, here; I know we're a lot alike, as well as different, but I haven't known any personally well enough to really understand the type. If I'm not mistaken, the "beat the system" stuff is actually more xSTJ than xSTP. STPs just aren't that concerned with things that are already in place: we're interested in what we can create and do ourselves, just like you just said you xNTPs are about your ideas. My ISTJ dad, on the other hand . . . <chuckle> . . . He has grocery shopping down to a science. He knows which brand names are part of the same manufacturer, and he cuts coupons for one product in order to get the discount on another. He knows some of their bar code numbers and knows when this will work. He is careful to choose a cashier who he thinks will scan the coupons without paying attention to the products. He loves the new self-checkouts because he can just bypass the cashier component. His favorite thing of all is when some deli item is mistagged (wrong $/lb). He got a good steak this summer for just a few cents. He was so proud. Could it be related to Si-Te? I'm not sure. But it's interesting. My xSFJ brother also loves to "beat the system". I'm sure it's partly something he learned from our dad, but it's something that doesn't remotely interest me. I actually get frustrated with it. I'm not remotely concerned with "the system" and I'm not paranoid that someone's inside it trying to rip me off, and that I can outsmart it. Just let me pay what something is worth, what's fair, and be free of any debts or obligations.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Yeah, beat the "system" when the system is outside you marks to me an obsession with working with parameters outside us in the objective world. Perhaps theorizing on various ways to beat the system for its own sake could involve more Ti, but directly beating the system sounds like it would at least involve a lot of Te drive. 
I guess it could be various sorts of perceiving functions together with Te, not sure myself.



> INTPs don't beat down ideas or often think of ours as particularly superior (it's more our logical process that we defend)... we are like an idea free-for-all fun-zone!




One reason why INFJ and INTP can be good friends, I think. If there's anything an Ni-dominant hates, it's someone restricting/scoffing at their deep inner workings, despite how "out there" they may be. The difference of course being that N is not quite structured.

Although, an INTP who _is_ a bit snarky can be precisely the worst turn-offto INFJ because of the Ti vs Ni conflict. 

Sometimes, I do wonder if INTP fits me myself. Trouble being I use N and T both a lot, and use both Ni and Ne quite prominently to be honest. I think it's safe to say I'm no ISTP if I get lost on the way home on a path I've taken a hundred times, because I barely am aware of my surroundings at any time. 

The trouble for me is defining what "dominant" and "inferior" _really_ mean. I think in a case like this thread, that winds up particularly crucial. 

In some senses, I really do think Ti-dominance makes sense for me, and that Ne is a very good auxiliary. Yet I use Ni a lot. What I'm weak at is Te, really.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Finaille said:


> Ugh my brain hurts from all this switching. The functions are all so different from where we started @[email protected] At this point I don't understand the difference between truth and perception anymore. Am I ENFP? Are the people I've typed in my life the types I see them as?




There's a good chance that if you really know them, and get the system, you typed them right the first time! I don't think you should worry way too much.

As long as you weren't typing people with strong sensing abilities as intuitives _just because_ they also display intuitive ability, or typing thinkers as feelers because they are emotional, etc, you might very well just have gotten it right. Instinct is pretty powerful with these types of things.


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## untypable (Oct 23, 2012)

Hmm, one thing I've often wondered about the entire MBTI system is that it completely ignores the dimension of time and the fact that humans are dynamic, ever-changing critters. Child type may not always be equal to adult type, further young adult type may not be exactly the same as a mature adult's type. Can developing the inferior functions throughout life's twists and turns actually result in one of them becoming dominant enough to change their type? From what little I understand of this, it would seem that as a person learns about themselves and matures they might find their behaviour and thought processes shifting. I'm not saying there would be extreme changes, but wouldn't subtle adjustments be possible? 

Sorry, this is just a question that has been bugging me for a while. 

As far as my dad goes, I am quite sure his tendency is more to theorize about how to beat the system and to learn as much as possible about doing it but on a broad scale. When it comes to practically beating it (for example, the coupon cutting or using various mis-matched coupons), he wouldn't be naturally capable of doing any of that, he's not organized or observant enough of the little details around him.

Some more about myself I suppose. Was thinking this afternoon about one some of my hero movie characters that I wish I could be more like.. now I don't watch much for movies or TV but I found these characters particularly intriguing because I could identify with them slightly. I thought by perhaps comparing the various personality traits of these 3 different characters one might get closer to my type, who knows so here we go: 

1. Jason Bourne of the Bourne series- I am both naturally able and very much enjoy having the capability to become calmer in an emergency situation and keep my head on a swivel, knowing what's around me and even observing things in some detail. I can't stay in this state for too long before I emotionally break down (if the situation affects me directly). Example: My brother rolled a 4-wheeler this summer. Well, more like dropped it on his head, it flipped over him nearly tearing his helmet off. I got the call and immediately gathered my resources for a hospital visit. Backpack, check, computer and power supply check, usb cable for charging phone so I can act as communication center for concerned family members and friends, check. I was at the hospital in no time at all, then assessed the situation, observed that he was not paralysed and was regaining consciousness. After the peak of the event and knowing he was stabilized and likely not going to die, only then did the emotion and anxiousness really hit me.

2. Matt Farrell of Live Free or Die hard: Again for his ability to think on his feet and the geeky tendencies, having capabilities with him (however far-fetched) and his rather dry sense of humor, these items I identified with. 

3. The Phantom of Phantom of the Opera: Now this one is WAY different, but I really identified with his character because while ever trying to gain the love of Christine, he came up short, his intentions may have been good but his methods were awkward at best, murderous at worst. (No I'm not a homicidal maniac who lives in an old theater lol,). The gut-wrenching longing for someone he could not have, and he probably ~knew~ that from the start, but tried anyway combined with the ability to let his dream go because it was in her best interest (in the final scenes) resonated with me in a way that very few characters have. Besides that the song writing and audio production value of this particular flick was stellar *grin* sorry, couldn't help it.

I dunno how much these will help, but trying to provide some more clues.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Some things never change.

How you think is so deep into your mind that it doesn't change.
What you think change, but not how you do it.

My mother for example told me that when I was really young they bought mirrors for my bicycle so I didn't need to turn my head to see (because I almost always fell when I did that). However, when I looked into the mirror I didn't find it sufficient enough of a proof that I turned my head even tho I had mirrors (which then caused me to fall). I still got that issue.

A lot from my childhood speaks of weak Se because I show distrust to what I see and I need to check things first-hand.
Also, just about everything that has to do with Se has been quite painful for me as far as I can remember.
I also showed Fe when I was younger because I'd go out and ride with my bike just because my friends wanted to and I felt like I wanted to satisfy their will to go around with their bike.

I've also always had an awful sense of time.
My mother once got pissed at me because I came like 40 minutes late and I was just a few blocks from home.

Reality has always been my enemy to summarize it :tongue:

Since I was a little kid, I've been bullied, had PTSD, psychologically mistreated by my mother, had constant fights between my parents because they did what they thought was best for us (aka. not leaving each other) which ended up messing us up, I've had to deal with a mother that can't say she loves me without it being followed by a requirement, I've coped with a sister that always wanted to push me down so she could feel good about herself, my mother always stood by my sister in arguments and my dad didn't want to get involved, I've been betrayed by people I've trusted, exploited by some and ofc more things that I don't remember atm.
Ofc. I haven't even had close to the bad experiences of some, but I'm still INFJ after all those things that I've been through.

I don't think people change their MBTI type.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

petitpèlerin said:


> I'm enjoying learning about the inner working of INTPs, here; I know we're a lot alike, as well as different, but I haven't known any personally well enough to really understand the type. If I'm not mistaken, the "beat the system" stuff is actually more xSTJ than xSTP. STPs just aren't that concerned with things that are already in place: we're interested in what we can create and do ourselves, just like you just said you xNTPs are about your ideas. My ISTJ dad, on the other hand . . . <chuckle> . . . He has grocery shopping down to a science. He knows which brand names are part of the same manufacturer, and he cuts coupons for one product in order to get the discount on another. He knows some of their bar code numbers and knows when this will work. He is careful to choose a cashier who he thinks will scan the coupons without paying attention to the products. He loves the new self-checkouts because he can just bypass the cashier component. His favorite thing of all is when some deli item is mistagged (wrong $/lb). He got a good steak this summer for just a few cents. He was so proud. Could it be related to Si-Te? I'm not sure. But it's interesting. My xSFJ brother also loves to "beat the system". I'm sure it's partly something he learned from our dad, but it's something that doesn't remotely interest me. I actually get frustrated with it. I'm not remotely concerned with "the system" and I'm not paranoid that someone's inside it trying to rip me off, and that I can outsmart it. Just let me pay what something is worth, what's fair, and be free of any debts or obligations.


I know an ESTJ who's just like your dad. When he buys something and finds it somewhere else for less, he makes his wife return the first item to the store so he can get the cheaper item. It's interesting how they still work within the system while still gaming it. I have never really understand the point of gaming the system; mostly because there's no real point to doing so. I don't know if your dad's behavior is related more to cognitive functions or Enneagram, or even just his environment, though. My grandmother's an ISTP and she did this kind of coupon-cutting thing, but I think it's just how she was raised in the Depression and WWII, and just kept on doing it even when she didn't need to do it.

But I do like the self checkout lines; sometimes its just easier to do it yourself rather than wait for someone else. I have never understood those people who wait in line for people to wait on them. Inefficient.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

untypable said:


> I dunno how much these will help, but trying to provide some more clues.


Great post. Very helpful indeed. You definitely think outside the box. You're intelligent, practical, and resourceful. You can handle emergencies well (most typical of xNTJ and xSTP; also xSTJ); and not only do you keep your cool but you make a plan of action and you can think through important details, like what you'll need to have with you later in order to do what will need to be done then. (That sounds like Te in action.) You also seem to be someone who doesn't hesitate to act when the time is right. Here's a thought: ENTJ. I keep coming back to INTJ but it just doesn't seem to fit you right. (INTJs just aren't as aware and engaged with the outer world as you are, and they're not as comfortable with people.) Sometimes when that happens it turns out ENTJ. The way you described the movie characters you relate to and why just reminds me strongly of a good ENTJ guy I know. Now I'm reconsidering everything else we've covered here and I think it's a good possibility. Rereading your questionnaire, I think it's a strong possibility. ENTJ: dominant thinking, high Ni intuition, good Se awareness, and some shy Fi that likes to peek its head out sometimes, such as singing to his wife at his wedding.  Have you considered it before?

Edit: Just for kicks and giggles, check out the current poll results for "Types ENTJs would like to date". It appears that we've found a type that can't seem to get enough of ENFPs.  http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/poll-3015-a.html


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

kasthu said:


> I know an ESTJ who's just like your dad. When he buys something and finds it somewhere else for less, he makes his wife return the first item to the store so he can get the cheaper item.


Haha! My dad won't let my (ESTJ) mom go near a grocery store, for the same reason! Anything she buys, he gets "mad" and tells her he could have gotten it at another store cheaper. (He shops at, like, 5 different stores.) She and I stopped in one while on a weekend trip alone last summer and she was downright giddy at the thought of buying some snacks and not having to answer for them!



> I don't know if your dad's behavior is related more to cognitive functions or Enneagram, or even just his environment, though. My grandmother's an ISTP and she did this kind of coupon-cutting thing, but I think it's just how she was raised in the Depression and WWII, and just kept on doing it even when she didn't need to do it.


Could be definitely related to that. My dad lived through the Depression and War, too. But the tendency extends to other things, too, not just economic living.



> But I do like the self checkout lines; sometimes its just easier to do it yourself rather than wait for someone else. I have never understood those people who wait in line for people to wait on them. Inefficient.


Me, too.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Hmm, one thing I've often wondered about the entire MBTI system is that it completely ignores the dimension of time and the fact that humans are dynamic, ever-changing critters. Child type may not always be equal to adult type




This might help: I think it doesn't ignore it so much as, who said you're allowed to type your child?!? I mean, if you can do it, great, but type is ultimately going to make more sense if we have lots of good info to work from. Such info may be more accessible/developed in the case of an adult, although in some children maybe it's great.

It is more likely that a lot of fundamental traits develop over time, new cognitive functions are used. But I'm hard-pressed to see some of them just vanishing from their prominent use once you get really comfortable using them. 

There _can_ be arguments made that someone's type changed, but I assure you, I can grill someone who says that most of the time and show them they're neglecting a lot.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

I like that @petitpèlerin is having you consider Je-dominance. I think it's definitely very possible. The whole of the way, Je has been very, very high up there. There was definitely other stuff, like Ti, Si, etc, but one thing I'm sure of as heck is Je is not a weakness. It's probably aux or dom.

This is a compliment! It means you @_untypable_ are the sort of person I'd want to rely on when I'm fumbling.


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

Okay, I am inclined to believe that Si is driving the bus here, due to this statement by the typee that if feel is being ignored:



untypable said:


> I do feel I left out something ~critcal~ in my description of how I get a lot of enjoyment out of mixing music, and that extremely critical bit came to mind while reading the discussion. In music, whether playing, mixing, or listening, I get emotionally released and freed. I feel when performing or when mixing that I am able to communicate the emotion inside my head (which feels to me to be too complex or strong to put into words) to others around me - which, it's not normal for me to communicate emotion as much otherwise. You can almost always tell what mood I'm in based on what's playing from my music collection


 When mixing he takes in sound and compares to how he knows it should sound, he compares it with similar situations, draws on that experience to decide what is needed to fill out the sound. Moreover he draws energy from it and gains easier access to his emotional core. I have this exact relationship with music. 

I agree that Te is in play for many reasons but the easiest to explain is the contingency planning involved with the "belt-o-plenty".

I also agree that Fi is in play as well. IE-


Finaille said:


> if he doesn't cool it he might land himself in trouble someday. It's as if he forgets that his words may cause harm, even though I know he isn't trying to provoke anybody or cause harm


 Fi is unaware of external responses, and if we are not adding malicious intent we don't really understand why it would be a problem.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Yeah as long as Je is at least aux, I'm not going to be too upset  

Si could be "driving the bus"

Here's a question though -- how much does Si have to _interact_ with Je for it to be the honest dominant? Just having strong Si seems like it wouldn't capture the flavor of the type.

E.g. INFJ's flavor comes from the _blend_​ of Ni + Fe more than Ni and Fe being separately present.

This is a question only, not a challenge at all. I personally struggle with it myself.


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

bearotter said:


> Yeah as long as Je is at least aux, I'm not going to be too upset
> 
> Si could be "driving the bus"
> 
> ...


When he is mixing he uses Si to compare to known "values" and Te to organize and arrange it and truly make sense of it. The same as preforming with a band, but not when just listening to it, there is no Te at all.
Edit: unless hes is critiquing the music he is listening to then there would be some Te: like he would arrange it differently.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

stone100674 said:


> Okay, I am inclined to believe that Si is driving the bus here . . . . When mixing he takes in sound and compares to how he knows it should sound, he compares it with similar situations, draws on that experience to decide what is needed to fill out the sound. Moreover he draws energy from it and gains easier access to his emotional core. I have this exact relationship with music.


I think this is related to present-but-low-Fi in each of you, maybe even more specifically Fi-behind-Te: someone basically rational has difficulty expressing the gooey emotional insides and finds music a medium to do so. In untypable's case, though, well, I didn't hear him say anything about comparing music to how he knows it should sound. That's an another component that you yourself do, but he didn't report that himself. He reported earlier in the thread that he loves to make all the different parts of the music come together and see it work. That sounds more Ni to me, whereas what you do sounds more Si.

I agree with you on the Te-Fi, and great point about Fi's unawareness of external responses.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

petitpèlerin said:


> I think this is related to present-but-low-Fi in each of you, maybe even more specifically Fi-behind-Te: someone basically rational has difficulty expressing the gooey emotional insides and finds music a medium to do so. In untypable's case, though, well, I didn't hear him say anything about comparing music to how he knows it should sound. That's an another component that you yourself do, but he didn't report that himself. He reported earlier in the thread that he loves to make all the different parts of the music come together and see it work. That sounds more Ni to me, whereas what you do sounds more Si.
> 
> I agree with you on the Te-Fi, and great point about Fi's unawareness of external responses.


However, he hasn't expressed inferior Se.
He hasn't agreed any of the times I've talked about inferior Se as far as I'm aware.

Truth is that I don't think he has talked about any form of issues that he has noticed like with Se or Ne or anything like that. So again, maybe it's a judging function that is inferior?


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> However, he hasn't expressed inferior Se.
> He hasn't agreed any of the times I've talked about inferior Se as far as I'm aware.


You're right. He rather reports feeling quite comfortable with Se. If he's ENTJ, as I have a hunch he is, his Se would be tertiary, not inferior.



> Truth is that I don't think he has talked about any form of issues that he has noticed like with Se or Ne or anything like that. So again, maybe it's a judging function that is inferior?


Could be. Or could be Fi.


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

petitpèlerin said:


> I think this is related to present-but-low-Fi in each of you, maybe even more specifically Fi-behind-Te: someone basically rational has difficulty expressing the gooey emotional insides and finds music a medium to do so. In untypable's case, though, well, I didn't hear him say anything about comparing music to how he knows it should sound. That's an another component that you yourself do, but he didn't report that himself. He reported earlier in the thread that he loves to make all the different parts of the music come together and see it work. That sounds more Ni to me, whereas what you do sounds more Si.


Your right he did not say that he did that and it is what I do, what he said is:



untypable said:


> I feel best when I can make the music work and everything comes together in a perfect mix.


 I can understand seeing Ni here but I take perfect mix to a comparison to past sensory experience.

Then there is all the Si reference in the video and the memory he had about the train motor sound and boat starter motor sound comparison. I see this as Si.



untypable said:


> it would buzz and click but most of the time it wouldn't move. Dad said something along the lines of "the brushes are shot or need to be cleaned" and then proceeded to show me what the brushes were and a little bit of how they worked. I didn't gain a complete understanding of the electric motor at that time but I had those simple concepts. Fast-forward 3 months, I was staying at a relative's cabin and their boat wouldn't start. I heard the buzz and click, I saw the motor stutter back and forth but it would not turn over. I also noticed they rotated the prop by hand (eliminating a mechanical jam) so I blurted out something about "the brushes are shot or need to be cleaned." Found out months after that they had taken the boat in to the mechanic and I had hit the nail on the proverbial head


More that in the video he talks about being unsure in the beginning of their courtship he was unsure of how he should feel in terms of friend or girlfriend. He says when he started dating her he still was not aware of he felt about her and did so "kinda because she liked me". This does not sound like Ni to me, but rather inferior Ne. 
JMHO



> I agree with you on the Te-Fi, and great point about Fi's unawareness of external responses.


Well, I live with Fi everyday. I know it very well.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

petitpèlerin said:


> You're right. He rather reports feeling quite comfortable with Se. If he's ENTJ, as I have a hunch he is, his Se would be tertiary, not inferior.
> 
> 
> 
> Could be. Or could be Fi.


True, I got a close ENTJ friend who happens to be the most accommodating person I know.
My ESFP mother thinks he doesn't have any faults >.> lol

It would also explain the sensitivity of his feeling function. (as with any other inferior feeling function)
I just believe that he got a weak feeling function atm and I'll leave it at that until I get more of a response from him.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> True, I got a close ENTJ friend who happens to be the most accommodating person I know.
> My ESFP mother thinks he doesn't have any faults >.> lol


 Healthy ENTJs are extremely well-rounded people. I can't find any real fault with my ENTJ friend, either, except that he tends to be unaware of how people around him are feeling, but I consider that a natural weakness, which we all have, rather than a fault.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

stone100674 said:


> YMore that in the video he talks about being unsure in the beginning of their courtship he was unsure of how he should feel in terms of friend or girlfriend. He says when he started dating her he still was not aware of he felt about her and did so "kinda because she liked me". This does not sound like Ni to me, but rather inferior Ne.
> JMHO


I definitely agree with you about this.
If there's something that I really picked up, then it was that he didn't have much confidence/foresight about how it would go. Most likely meaning that the future was uncertain to him with results he couldn't/wouldn't really guess.
NJs will almost make too much assumptions about what will happen because we always test things in the present (in this case it might be something that tests the other person to see how far they are prepared to go) to see how it correlates with our views on the future. If we get some of our views confirmed we start to pin it down on a most likely future.

For example, I believed an ISTJ girl liked me before because she kinda stalked me and then called me interesting, so I put my hand on her shoulder one of the times that I was talking to her to test her reaction. She withdrew that shoulder a bit which was enough to inform me that she more likely wasn't interested in me.

Still, I'd like it if he could make it more clear how he acts when stressed and how he agrees with the inferior functions.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator, I like what you're saying, and that suggests to me that the Ni isn't a "top" function in him even if he does use it. Yeah, definitely seeing Je as higher than Ni. Not sure about Si really. I feel like Si isn't interacting with too many other things, and seems more stand-alone.
If he does use Ni, it's probably in conjunction with something else.

Kind of how Ne-activities drive me crazy, but when supporting my Ti, it's pretty wildfire. 

Gah. Had something written, and it got erased. Basically, I was going to say I know an ENTJ (OK, he has never talked to me about MBTI, but still) who really really thinks about people a lot. He often will do things for them before he helps himself. But he's so not an Fe-user in the way I am. I will more often hear and feel out what the person wants and offer a solution based on my principles. He'll actually try to make their life better more directly. He may not be as much of a feel-y supporter, but he seems to have type 2 in his enneagram like the husband.

And yes, he does have some pretty good Ni (still talking of my friend), but it's nowhere near as much expressed as in actual Pi types I've encountered, who, like it was said above, are all about relating back to their thoughts and forming those speculations. 
He doesn't give me that vibe.

Nor does he at all give me a Ji-dominant vibe. Just look at my (new!) type, and compare to my thinking style.




> For example, I believed an ISTJ girl liked me before because she kinda stalked me and then called me interesting, so I put my hand on her shoulder one of the times that I was talking to her to test her reaction. She withdrew that shoulder a bit which was enough to inform me that she more likely wasn't interested in me.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Also @Finaille, haha, just a thought -- when you were questioning whether the types that you gave people in your life, as it seemed things were going out the window, I wonder if it was a bit of inferior Si  as in, while the ability to fixate on and vividly focus on past experience isn't your most primary thing (if it is, maybe we need to change your type!!!), in some sense, Si does like that familiarity -- it enjoys being able to really feel the experiences you had an impressions you had to your gut, and is in a way attached to it, but at this level of use I referenced, it's probably tertiary/inferior.


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## untypable (Oct 23, 2012)

bearotter said:


> This might help: I think it doesn't ignore it so much as, who said you're allowed to type your child?!? I mean, if you can do it, great, but type is ultimately going to make more sense if we have lots of good info to work from. Such info may be more accessible/developed in the case of an adult, although in some children maybe it's great.
> 
> It is more likely that a lot of fundamental traits develop over time, new cognitive functions are used. But I'm hard-pressed to see some of them just vanishing from their prominent use once you get really comfortable using them.
> 
> There _can_ be arguments made that someone's type changed, but I assure you, I can grill someone who says that most of the time and show them they're neglecting a lot.[/COLOR]


Heh I just thought I'd bring up the question since it was bugging me , I would agree that once people feel comfortable using a function, especially a primary or aux function they will pretty much never change their use of that process. Anyway thanks for explaining a bit! 



bearotter said:


> I like that @petitpèlerin is having you consider Je-dominance. I think it's definitely very possible. The whole of the way, Je has been very, very high up there. There was definitely other stuff, like Ti, Si, etc, but one thing I'm sure of as heck is Je is not a weakness. It's probably aux or dom.
> 
> This is a compliment! It means you @_untypable_ are the sort of person I'd want to rely on when I'm fumbling.


I am definitely one of those always prepared sort of people, I carry a backpack full of various items pretty much anywhere I go, I've been nicknamed batman for the amount of crap hanging from my belt on a normal day, and I don't mind at all.. A really good day for me would be when the power goes out and I'm faced with a dilemma: which of 3 or 4 flash lights do I deploy first? I like to be predictive and prepared.
Equipment and emergencies aside I do very much enjoy being available for emotional support for my wife or friends when they're having a bad day.

Finally @bearotter, I was just asking @Finaille this morning if its possible she's still not operating in her primary strengths, her primary type. She's had some of her independence and decision making done for her by her protective/domineering father for years. She tells me she was a very independent little snot when she was younger, perty much able to speak her mind whenever. As she matured a bit of tact worked its way into her mannerisms and she's quite a wonderful person to be around. I'm interested to see her gain some of that confidence back over time.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

bearotter said:


> Also @Finaille, haha, just a thought -- when you were questioning whether the types that you gave people in your life, as it seemed things were going out the window, I wonder if it was a bit of inferior Si  as in, while the ability to fixate on and vividly focus on past experience isn't your most primary thing (if it is, maybe we need to change your type!!!), in some sense, Si does like that familiarity -- it enjoys being able to really feel the experiences you had an impressions you had to your gut, and is in a way attached to it, but at this level of use I referenced, it's probably tertiary/inferior.


Actually I was just tired, frustrated, and completely lost by the particular train of thought and how it's been changing so significantly since the start of this thread. But I am starting to see it more as you hash one type or function out until you realize it works or doesn't, then move on to the next one. In a way, I see everything at once. Also, I'm probably measuring objectives that you can't even see (as I'm the one who studies my husband in real life). It's hard to describe everything he does that I measure and why that would make me agree or disagree on a particular comment multiple people agree with.

He's working on a post now, so hopefully whatever he says can add additional insight. I can say after hashing out the general descriptions of the ENTJ and the ESTJ I really disagree with him being dominant Te. He could be auxiliary, maybe, but I always disagree with many of the descriptions. I see him as being an extraordinarily patient, relaxed, Type-B kind of person (even when things go wrong). I know his reasoning relates to 'does acting this way benefit myself or others in the situation?' I honestly don't know any Te-dominant who wouldn't at least show some type of outward impatience or frustration in a situation where something is going wrong. And I'm also trying to go with the descriptions that @stone100674 presented to me as well, they seem legit enough (basically, the definitions do appear to match what I've seen from each type, or at least the types I know).

But yeah. I'm tired and I have not gotten enough sleep. Discuss amongst yourselves and we'll get a chance to hash out your comments later.


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

Finaille said:


> But yeah. I'm tired and I have not gotten enough sleep. Discuss amongst yourselves and we'll get a chance to hash out your comments later.


I can sympathize greatly. I only got about two hours of sleep, and the dream I had was about functional analysis and thumbing through hard copies of descriptions. LOL I don't feel as though I slept at all.

I think the two of you should turn off the 'puters and just have a coffee, tea or maybe a nice hot chocolate with marshmallows. Mmmmm Marshmallows,  put on some nice music or a movie and cuddle up on the couch for the rest of the day. Forget about this and just enjoy each other for a bit.

I will get back to you later, if I can sneak a nap in: or tomorrow if I don't. Okay? Have a wonderful rest of the day.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Finally @_bearotter_, I was just asking @_Finaille_ this morning if its possible she's still not operating in her primary strengths, her primary type.


 @_untypable_

That's interesting. Yeah, I think that does happen from time to time actually. 



> descriptions of the ENTJ and the ESTJ I really disagree with him being dominant Te. He could be auxiliary, maybe, but I always disagree with many of the descriptions. I see him as being an extraordinarily patient, relaxed, Type-B kind of person (even when things go wrong). I know his reasoning relates to 'does acting this way benefit myself or others in the situation?'


It may be that he's not either of those, sure. 

Here's one thing though: I somehow don't see E_TJ being the most common type for a type 2 enneagram, so it could be that he's a unique one. In fact, in a situation of crisis, I'd expect a Te-dom to be practical, prepared, as your husband says he is, and with his type 2 nature, ready to make the people around him taken care of. 

My friend who I *think* is an ENTJ with type 2 at least as a fix, if not the main, he's really, really patient, and the least agitated of very many of my friends. He's peaceful, prepared, great at putting together a plan to help people in a practical way, balanced, and helpful to people, but not as much in a touchy-feely way.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

The stereotypes of Te-doms stink. I know both ENTJs and ESTJs and who, in their personal lives, are sweet, kind, thoughtful, and even easy-going. My mother is a peace-loving, just-wants-everybody-else-to-be-happy ESTJ, who is the only one of her four ESxx sisters who doesn't try to get her way, who doesn't have a "way" to get. She's not "strong-willed" and I (a quiet little introvert?) spent my first 18 years making her crazy: "Why aren't you easy-going like me and your brother?" ("Because I know what I want to do and you won't let me do it and your reason doesn't make sense to me so I will argue with you, then rage. That's why.") So, my point is, sometimes the stereotypes don't work.

My ENTJ friend is also kind, considerate, thoughtful, easy-going, etc. In his mid-20s he quit his well-paying job in Paris (his hometown), moved out into his grandfather's woods and built a little cabin there where he lived with his dog, disillusioned with the rat race, lack of integrity in the media, trying to figure out what's really going on in the world. Then he spent a year studying philosophy and spirituality (with me, last year) and trying to figure out how to live a better life that did good for people instead of just making money and aiming at selfish, empty success. He was all about doing things for other people: visiting the sick old woman who lived alone around the corner, having the other students over for dinner, driving us places when the trains were on strike because he had a car and we foreigners didn't, etc. I've never met a more selfless guy. He spent the year trying to find a way to do good work in the world, work that would make life better for people, rather than work for a business that exists only for profit to simply earn money for himself. Of course he found one: this year he's gone to Russia to do humanitarian work with a non-profit organization, where he can also continue personal studies in philosophy (his mind never stops) and live with other spiritually-minded people. I'm so happy for him.

So, those are two fairly easy-going ExTJs. I know a few more who have been hard to type because they don't fit the stereotypes, either, but I'm fairly sure of their function order. (Really, the stereotypes only seem to fit corporate executives, government leaders, and business administrators. Anyone else is just out of luck: must be another type.  ) I don't know if they all struggle with patience, as you mentioned, but you're right, it is the tendency of dominant-Te. If your husband is really more relaxed even in crises then maybe he is more of a dominant-Pi (IxTJ) than dominant-Je (ExTJ).

If not ENTJ, then I'm back to INTJ. After seeing the video and reading more I do get a strong xxTJ vibe from him. I also lean strongly toward xNTJ. First, because I don't see any strong signs of Si but Ni. Second, because xNTJs generally have high potential to develop themselves personally, learn things very quickly, and master their areas of interest, even from a young age. Third, because I got an NT vibe from the video, much more than SJ. And because he knows Si-doms personally and doesn't feel he is one.

INTJs are another type that are misunderstood, and their potential is not so well recognized. There was a great post somewhere that helped me finally understand what INTJ is really all about. If I can find it I'll post it here.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> with the rat race, lack of integrity in the media, trying to figure out what's really going on in the world. Then he spent a year studying philosophy and spirituality (with me, last year) and trying to figure out how to live a better life that did good for people instead of just making money and aiming at selfish, empty success.




Going to add that my ENTJ friend is also pretty similar here. He gets disillusioned with the fact that a lot of Te-doms are in it for a rat race, but it's really natural to him to just....well, do what Te-doms do, constantly, and it energizes him more than Ni (he hasn't said it in this language, but he has said stuff that implies it, despite not knowing the MBTI system). He isn't in it for prestige/success.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

ENTJ is a really interesting idea. I know an ENTJ who has 0 interest in being an executive or worldly success. She is usually well prepared, tends to do things in her own (but nevertheless 'best') way... is very reliable (three flashlights type) but can be a bit spacey about rote things. In her relationships she is very dedicated and expressive - very accommodating but she is also pretty 'take charge' and helpful. She is also a tad bossy. But, taking her as an example and flipping to INTJ it could make a lot of sense.

xNTJ is a good line of thinking. It would be very interesting.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

I have another friend I think is an ENTJ. She's from a little hick town in the middle of nowhere and she's nothing like her friends. They're having babies at age 20 (nothing wrong with that, just saying) and partying hard like there's nothing else going on in the world, and she has this drive and this talent that apparently comes from nowhere but herself. She worked her butt off waitressing at the town diner through high school and in her early twenties bought a house in foreclosure and fixed it up. She's rented out rooms (I was her first roommate), took in a foster kid, finished her degree, worked some fascinating jobs, gotten into excellent physical condition, and literally traveled the world in the last few years. Other things she's done just because they interest her are get her real estate license and learn about the stock market. ENTJs just don't think like the people around them, or do what they do. They have a broader vision, and they accomplish more in less time. What I might admire most about her is the way she doesn’t judge her friends for living their lives and she still loves to hang out with them. She just does different things than they do. Also, she's an unusually calm person, has a calming effect on others and makes them feel comfortable and confident, and I've never seen any sign of impatience or aggravation in her. (Just thinking things through out loud to see what types are possible here for our untypable victim, I mean, friend.  )


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Just found the INTJ thread I was looking for. The first post is the one that finally showed me what INTJ really is and made me recognize immediately one of my oldest, closest, hardest-to-type friends as one (and to understand him better). There are fundamental functional similarities between INTJ and ENTJ; this of course is more I-specific, but hopefully it can help you determine whether or not he is xNTJ.

http://personalitycafe.com/intj-forum-scientists/99338-advice-young-intjs.html


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

It's always a possibility *shrug* I would likely go with INTJ over ENTJ if it were the case. Still, when I'm hearing the descriptions of the xNTJ type, they sound like they are doing something totally useful with their lives. They are getting out into the world and making something of themselves. He has no desire to continue his education (we both have bachelor's degrees) and- as much as I love him- doesn't seem to have this drive represented in all of the people you have described in your stories. 

I think for him, being prepared is more of a 'skill' learned. While he is able to handle an emergency, he's usually not that much of a go-getter unless asked to help out with something or it's part of one of his hobbies. I still have to remind him to be careful with his money and to check banking account frequently. I frequently poke fun at his bad habit of being late. I frequently tell him that he needs to put importance on himself and not work himself too hard if people need him for something. 

I don't know if this would be of strange importance, but when he was younger he never placed importance on eating. He always thought it was a waste of time o_o. In fact, before we met he weighed no more than 120 at the height of 5'9". Now he's eating more regularly, but that is something I will NEVER understand.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

Oh, and we did arrive at an interesting conclusion last night about one thing.

While we are always able to think and come up with plans together, it's as if I am able to remember everything he forgets and he is able to see the world around him that I manage to ignore. We planned a trip to the grocery store. He made the list, I verified that we actually needed everything on the list, I found coupons to print. I proceeded to walk into the living room and stub my toe hardcore (and that was the THIRD time that DAY I had done that, second time he witnessed it). He doesn't understand how I can't see where I'm going. Yet 10 minutes after we finish coupons, we're walking down the stairs to go to the car and I ask 'Um, did we remember the list and the coupons?' and he has to go back up and get everything. I think we both have a bad habit of getting distracted by other things (I forget objects frequently myself), but I do have a tendency to remember immediately that I'm missing something or something isn't right.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Finaille said:


> While we are always able to think and come up with plans together, it's as if I am able to remember everything he forgets and he is able to see the world around him that I manage to ignore. We planned a trip to the grocery store. He made the list, I verified that we actually needed everything on the list, I found coupons to print. I proceeded to walk into the living room and stub my toe hardcore (and that was the THIRD time that DAY I had done that, second time he witnessed it). He doesn't understand how I can't see where I'm going. Yet 10 minutes after we finish coupons, we're walking down the stairs to go to the car and I ask 'Um, did we remember the list and the coupons?' and he has to go back up and get everything. I think we both have a bad habit of getting distracted by other things (I forget objects frequently myself), but I do have a tendency to remember immediately that I'm missing something or something isn't right.


Neat.  That would fit with xNTJ. They tend to see the whole big picture but miss some actual, physical details. I should say it's also true for xNFJs, at least INFJs. I think it's a high-Ni/low-Se thing.

I have another friend I think is an ENTJ. For a long time I thought she was an ESTP: very focused, gets things done, very competitive. But it baffled me how an Se-dom could never - and I mean never - keep track of her car keys and cell phone. (I lived with her for many years. Every single time she left the house: "Have you seen my keys?" "Upstairs bathroom counter." "Do you know where my phone is?" "Left side of the big couch.") Since I've realized she's probably ENTJ rather ESTP, it makes much more sense.

Also, not caring about food is typical of high-Ni/low-Se. It's true for many of my INFJ, INTJ, and ENTJ friends, especially the I's.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Finaille said:


> It's always a possibility *shrug* I would likely go with INTJ over ENTJ if it were the case. Still, when I'm hearing the descriptions of the xNTJ type, they sound like they are doing something totally useful with their lives. They are getting out into the world and making something of themselves. He has no desire to continue his education (we both have bachelor's degrees) and- as much as I love him- doesn't seem to have this drive represented in all of the people you have described in your stories.
> 
> I think for him, being prepared is more of a 'skill' learned. While he is able to handle an emergency, he's usually not that much of a go-getter unless asked to help out with something or it's part of one of his hobbies. I still have to remind him to be careful with his money and to check banking account frequently. I frequently poke fun at his bad habit of being late. I frequently tell him that he needs to put importance on himself and not work himself too hard if people need him for something.
> 
> I don't know if this would be of strange importance, but when he was younger he never placed importance on eating. He always thought it was a waste of time o_o. In fact, before we met he weighed no more than 120 at the height of 5'9". Now he's eating more regularly, but that is something I will NEVER understand.


I don't know any ENTJs personally that I would describe as anything but 'driven'. That fits them all quite distinctly. However, I know at least two INTJs who are not driven AT ALL. I also know INTJs who are quite driven... and one is more driven than the least driven of my ENTJ acquaintances... but ... well, you get the point.

Your description of the list but forgetting it is pretty typical of xNTJ in my experience... though any NTJ I know would be pretty frustrated with themselves that they'd forgotten it.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

arkigos said:


> I don't know any ENTJs personally that I would describe as anything but 'driven'. That fits them all quite distinctly. However, I know at least two INTJs who are not driven AT ALL. I also know INTJs who are quite driven... and one is more driven than the least driven of my ENTJ acquaintances... but ... well, you get the point.


Yes, my experience with xNTJs is the same. One of my good INTJ friends is very driven, but he's taken on quite an incredible life task and, as an xNTJ, he's determined to do it well, and he does. My best INTJ friend is driven not so much to impact the world but to develop himself and cultivate a good, quiet life. He's developed all kinds of skills and hobbies: all his own home repairs, woodworking, bicycle and auto mechanics, gardening, composting, etc., and that's not counting his intellectual pursuits. He reads constantly. He works as a computer programmer, which is not what he majored in but something he learned on the side. He doesn't really enjoy a lot of socializing, except within certain parameters (for a certain amount of time, and better if it's doing some kind of activity), but he has deliberately and tremendously developed his social skills and his thoughtfulness of others since high school (wow, we've been friends for 20 years). Anything he puts his mind to doing, he does well. He bought his own little house just out of college and will have his mortgage paid off around the time most of our peers take out their first one. He looks ahead and he thinks things through.


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