# What exactly is Stephen?



## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

MBTI tests I've taken have come up ESTJ, ISTJ, and ESFJ, but nearly always come up ISTJ. People I've gotten close to who know about typing have either agreed with my type or said they believe I'm ISFJ, ESFJ, INTJ, INFJ, or ENFP. I've also examined INFP, which (like ENFP) uses the same four functions as ISTJ but in a different order. There's something critically wrong with the descriptions I've read for each of these.

For example, INFPs have been described as "searching for meaning," but I have a hard time thinking of myself that way. While I do resonate with the descriptions and definitions of the function Fi, and I'm pretty confident I'm using Fi (though I'm totally open here, show me I'm wrong, please!) I don't think it's something I've always used comfortably, so I doubt it's dominant. I've also had friends tell me I'm nothing like any INFP they've known, and also that I come across very much as a sensor.

I've been going on the understanding that I am ISTJ and 6w7 for a few months. This by itself is something odd, because ISTJs do not tend to be this enneagram type. When I first took an enneagram test in the early 1990s it came up 6w5, which is pretty common for ISTJs, but the description of the 6w7 is much closer to how I feel.

Surprisingly, I've had two women I got close to (one friend, one romance) freak out on me on the sudden "realization" that I'm a two, and not a six. I've reread the descriptions of twos and sixes and I really do feel closer to the 6w7 than the 2w1 or 2w3, but I've been told that's a common mistake. If I am a two, I understand that is thought to more commonly correspond to Fe use than Fi use. Timeless' test was the first enneagram test that pegged me as 6w7, most get me 6w5. If I am a two, I'll accept that. I don't really care what I am, I just want the truth so I can see my challenges clearly and address them properly.

To make this clear, I started in enneagram and have only had any awareness of MBTI for the past _four months_. Much of what I thought I'd learned about it has been discounted, so I'm starting from scratch. I'm 100% open here, and will read anything linked.

Thank you, in advance, to anyone who can offer me help with this.


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## The13thGuest (May 3, 2011)

ISTJ is a very possible type for a 6w7. I am guessing you are an ISTJ.


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## etherealuntouaswithin (Dec 7, 2010)

ISTJ seems to fit very well..though estj may also be a possibility.

fwiw I have an ESTJ friend who is also a 6w7...though his variants are inverted, Sp/So.

If i remember correctly,6w7's can seem like 2's because -some- cultivate bonds in a similar fashion.The motivation however is different.6's seek to cultivate bonds for fear of being without support..2's to validate and complete their sense of self.

you appear to be very much like a 6...you may even be overthinking things regarding your type in a sixish fashion.Perhaps you have a 2 fix in your tritype?


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## viva (Aug 13, 2010)

I definitely, definitely get feeler vibes from you. I'd say ISFJ.

Anywho, here's a lil' teeny blurb about Two vs. Six:


> Twos and Sixes commonly mistype, although it is more common for the Six, especially if female, to mistype as a Two than the reverse. But Sixes suffer from ambivalence, whereas Twos generally know exactly how they feel and what they want. Sixes are far more likely to suffer from self-doubt than is the more self-assured Two.


And a bigger snippet about Two vs. Six you may have already seen...


> * Type Six-Type Two
> 
> This is a fairly common mistype because these two types share a number of key traits. Both are warm and engaging and want to be liked–although, more precisely, Sixes want to have the approval and support of others, whereas Twos want to be loved and to be important to others. Both ingratiate themselves with people, although Sixes do so by being playful and silly, by bantering and teasing those they want to elicit an emotional (protective) response from. Average Twos also ingratiate themselves, but more from an implied position of superiority–they are warm and friendly, although the implication is that they are offering their love and friendship, their approval and advice, rather than that they are seeking it from the other, at least at first.
> In short, the feeling-tone of both types is completely different: Sixes warily invite selected others into their lives, whereas Twos throw out the net of their feelings with more abandon and see whom they can sweep into the fold. Sixes want to create partnerships with others that will support them in their bid to be more independent, but start to feel anxious if the relationship becomes too merged or "mushy." Twos want to be close with others, and the more intimacy and merging they have with their loved ones, the better.
> ...


I'd encourage you to take your enneagram test results with a grain of salt... I always get type 7 on every test, but I'm actually a type 4. The quizzes are a great way to narrow down what your type might be, but the actual type & wing you get will not necessarily be accurate. You should do lots, lots, lots of reading on sixes and twos, in particular their wings and variants. :happy:


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

vivacissimamente said:


> I definitely, definitely get feeler vibes from you. I'd say ISFJ.


This has been the main part of my conflict: ISTJ vs ISFJ, but the functions in ISFJ don't feel right to me. The more I read about Fi vs Fe, the more confident I become that Fi is my function. I haven't had any luck distinguishing Ti from Te in myself, and that is the other piece of that particular puzzle. I'm also not sure I have the handle on Si that I thought I did.



> Anywho, here's a lil' teeny blurb about Two vs. Six:
> And a bigger snippet about Two vs. Six you may have already seen...


Thank you for this. Of all the things I've read, this makes me think "two" the most. The confusion lies in my history. I feel pretty confident and strong in my life right now. I hardly do any worrying at all. However, I have not always been that way. Initiating a lot of change in my life (divorce, leaving school, changing bosses, moving) seems to have resolved most of my anxieties, even though some of these have increased my responsibilities. I actually think that this ambiguity over my type would have been very stressful for me before, whereas now I see it as something to address, but not a big deal. I find it hard to believe that I've become that stable a six in that short an amount of time. Which isn't to say I was always paralyzed by self-doubt before, just that I obsessed a bit in my mind.

On the other hand, the average two's discomfort with asking for and receiving help is dead wrong for me. I'm constantly looking for guidance on things, particularly here on PerC. I do get a charge out of helping others on and off the site, but it's rarely something I actually initiate, and I'm usually surprised when people respond positively. I have done some twoish things. I remember shortly after I started I saw someone in one of the threads who was clearly struggling at home, so I PM'd her to talk about it. I've done that a couple of times. While I think that this does make me feel good about myself, I don't _think_ it matters to me whether I receive anything in return, though I've read that twos face a conflict in this: wanting the return but feeling ashamed of it and denying that desire. I know that getting direct praise for something I've done can make me very uncomfortable. It's hard for me to pin down exactly why I make the connections I do. I don't know that I fear being alone so much as I get bored.



> I'd encourage you to take your enneagram test results with a grain of salt... I always get type 7 on every test, but I'm actually a type 4. The quizzes are a great way to narrow down what your type might be, but the actual type & wing you get will not necessarily be accurate. You should do lots, lots, lots of reading on sixes and twos, in particular their wings and variants.


This is much of the research I've been doing. Of the four (2w1, 2w3, 6w5, 6w7) the 6w7 is clearly, to me, the top one. I've always felt more confident of my 6w7 than my ISTJ. I'm wondering how much sense ISFJ 6w7 makes. Maybe I have a 2 fix.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

What exactly is @Stephen? A JERK!!! LOLOLOLOL. Just kidding :tongue:



You'll always be an ISTJ in my heart.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

@Stephen, i've also gotten a feeler vibe from you. I can't really say either way, i'm not an expert, although i get a warm and fuzzy feeling from your post ;-)....i never related you with ISTJ. Maybe ISFJ ? Of course i don't know, just a wild guess using F instead of T.


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## BearRight (Mar 6, 2010)

Hmmmm... I'm not sure you are an ISTJ at all, because you don't sound like an ISTJ and I get a feeler vibe from you too. I think you have concentrated too much on the enneagram thus far, and therefore I would advise you to ditch the enneagrams for a moment and concentrate on the myers briggs and cognitive functions instead. By the way, I haven't gotten into the enneagram myself, because I question its validity and I believe I'm not the only one.

Are you sure you're an introvert? I would think you could be.
Then you have thought that your dominant function is introverted sensing (Si). I'm not sure about that.
You are not an ISTJ in my opinion and neither an ISFJ, because you're probably an intuitive type.

Then you would be one of these: INTP, INFP, INTJ, INFJ (introverted intuitive types).
You are either an extraverted intuitive type who uses introverted sensing or an introverted intuitive type.
I would guess you're an INxP: either an INTP or an INFP, then you would use extraverted intuition as your second and introverted sensing as your third function.

My guess is that you are an INFP. After reading your blog that is very probable. You should research the introverted feeling function and find out if that is your dominant function. Does extraverted intuition sound familiar to you? After that you should research the extraverted thinking function and find out if that's your fourth function - the weakest function you have. These feeling and thinking functions are opposite functions. Forget the enneagrams at this point!

INFP men are quite different from INFP women, just like ENFP men are quite different from ENFP women. Then there's a lot of variation inside type, we are individuals after all. You probably notice that I use a lot of extraverted thinking in my posts. I'm like Ne+Te, that's what can be seen on the outside, the Fi is hidden and just guides my actions and thoughts quietly, because it's an introverted function. 

Please feel free to ask further help, if you doubt being an INFP. I can help you with the functions.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

BearRight said:


> Hmmmm... I'm not sure you are an ISTJ at all, because you don't sound like an ISTJ and I get a feeler vibe from you too. I think you have concentrated too much on the enneagram thus far, and therefore I would advise you to ditch the enneagrams for a moment and concentrate on the myers briggs and cognitive functions instead. By the way, I haven't gotten into the enneagram myself, because I question its validity and I believe I'm not the only one.


I'm reasonably confident of my enneagram type, but I'm more than happy to set it aside for now. I only mentioned it because it's generally been something I considered a conflict with the idea of me being an ISTJ.



> Are you sure you're an introvert? I would think you could be.


No. I have tested extravert as well. The last time I took the test, it came up ESFJ. I do share some traits with that type.



> Then you have thought that your dominant function is introverted sensing (Si). I'm not sure about that.
> You are not an ISTJ in my opinion and neither an ISFJ, because you're probably an intuitive type.


I've also felt that my understanding of Si does not line up with what I understand of who I am. Why do you think I'm an intuitive type?



> Then you would be one of these: INTP, INFP, INTJ, INFJ (introverted intuitive types).
> You are either an extraverted intuitive type who uses introverted sensing or an introverted intuitive type.
> I would guess you're an INxP: either an INTP or an INFP, then you would use extraverted intuition as your second and introverted sensing as your third function.


I hadn't considered being an INTP. I'll have to look into that type. INFP is one that I have looked into, and I would like to hear more about what makes you think I'm an INFP.



> My guess is that you are an INFP. After reading your blog that is very probable. You should research the introverted feeling function and find out if that is your dominant function. Does extraverted intuition sound familiar to you? After that you should research the extraverted thinking function and find out if that's your fourth function - the weakest function you have. These feeling and thinking functions are opposite functions. Forget the enneagrams at this point!


Fi and Ne I've researched, and I'm confident I'm using them. Well, I'm more confident of Ne than Fi, as I'm having trouble drawing a distinction in myself between Fi and Fe, no matter how much research I do.



> INFP men are quite different from INFP women, just like ENFP men are quite different from ENFP women. Then there's a lot of variation inside type, we are individuals after all. You probably notice that I use a lot of extraverted thinking in my posts. I'm like Ne+Te, that's what can be seen on the outside, the Fi is hidden and just guides my actions and thoughts quietly, because it's an introverted function.


I haven't seen your posts before, and I honestly am not sure I would notice the use of Te or Ti in a post. I don't understand the distinction between those functions, or how to identify them in someone's writing. I've only started reading about these in the past few days.



> Please feel free to ask further help, if you doubt being an INFP. I can help you with the functions.


That seems to be what I'm doing. :laughing:


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## Angelic Gardevoir (Oct 7, 2010)

I get ISFJ vibes from you, but I could be wrong.


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## Jabberbroccoli (Mar 19, 2011)

I agree that 6 is correct, every person on this forum overthinking things, has been a 6. I won't comment on ISTJ/????, because I have some personal bias against them, because of some misguided ISTJs I have had physical interaction with. This causes me to misinterpret the ISTJ type. 

You are a 6, however.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

Jabberbroccoli said:


> I agree that 6 is correct, every person on this forum overthinking things, has been a 6.


Yep, I think I'm solid on six. Thank you.



> I won't comment on ISTJ/????, because I have some personal bias against them, because of some misguided ISTJs I have had physical interaction with. This causes me to misinterpret the ISTJ type.


Ooh, you ought to head over to the ISTJ forum and do some lurking. There are some great minds over there with a lot of insight. It would be a great opportunity to dilute the jerks you've already been subjected to.


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## Jabberbroccoli (Mar 19, 2011)

Good idea... I think I may have a natural gift to piss off ISTJs when I get into critcal thinking debateyness. I completely overstep their system and void the thought pattern when I think. 

I have no S, No J. That's the cognitive pattern.

I clash with most SJs when I get into debates, which I like to do.


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## Scruffy (Aug 17, 2009)

I don't feel like explaining, but I believe your Enneagram to be

6w7-9w1-2w1, you've got some fake 1 going on, or you have a 1w9.. I think the so/sp stacking fits as well.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

@Scruffy , can you please take a wild guess at mine . Even if its just a guess. I keep bouncing back and forth between a few, i can't seem to decide anything firm. You don't have to explain, just give me a number


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

Scruffy said:


> I don't feel like explaining, but I believe your Enneagram to be
> 
> 6w7-9w1-2w1, you've got some fake 1 going on, or you have a 1w9.. I think the so/sp stacking fits as well.


I agree with you. I see plenty of evidence for that 2.


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

I always got an Fe vibe from you. Its as if you care about feelings of people in a different way then a normal Fe user would. Your not really "out to help people" but if the opportunity presents itself you will without hesitation. I always thought you were more Ti then Te too. But I honestly have no idea why. 

I think your an ISFJ.

Its always harder to get the correct type of more mature people. Probably because you use all your functions so well.


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## kittychris07 (Jun 15, 2010)

If you were ESFJ, I guess it would kind of make sense that you relate to using Ne some. They do have Ne as their tertiary function after all. But I won't make a guess, because I am likely to be off. I don't really have a strong feeling or logical reason to back up any guess I would make. 

As teddy pointed out to me in a thread I made about being an ISFJ or an ISTJ, Si+Fe can combine to feel like it is Fi. I guess I'm an Fe user because I certainly care a lot about other people and feel some obligation to take care of their feelings and make sure that they are doing okay, but for the longest time I thought it was Fi because I was very focused on what the reasoning was behind doing an action. If I didn't feel genuine, I wouldn't want to do an action because I was being insincere in my intentions. But maybe this was just was a combination of Si and Fe as well as my Enneagram type (which turned out to be 1 in the end).


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## Vaan (Dec 19, 2010)

Well if you want to know what Stephen is 

Stephen (or Steven in my case) comes from greek/latin "Stephanos" meaning "Crown or "Wreath"


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

Vaan said:


> Well if you want to know what Stephen is
> 
> Stephen (or Steven in my case) comes from greek/latin "Stephanos" meaning "Crown or "Wreath"


Heh. Well, I knew that, but thank you for contributing. :laughing:


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## BearRight (Mar 6, 2010)

Heather White Karnas said:


> This actually describes Chris... hmmmm. To an extent though.. but it sounds a lot like him! For sure.. maybe you and Chris are both mistyped @_Stephen_ .. haha..
> 
> I don't know you well enough to know weather I think you are a thinker or a feeler. Based on what i think the differences are I haven't seen enough evidence to make that choice about you myself.
> 
> ...


You could be right. I think Stephen is either an ISTJ or an ISFJ, we can probably narrow it down to ISxJ. What do you think, Heather White Karnas, can we narrow it down? He doesn't seem to be an ESTJ, and I don't think he is an ESFJ either. ISxJ males can look deceptively similar, I'm sure, and that makes them difficult to type.

A visible difference could be that ISFJs are warm and ISTJs cold. Isn't Stephen quite warm?


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

@BearRight
Possibly ISFJ.. But i gotta go with my gut here that he's an ISTJ.. and it (my gut instincts) have not been wrong about too much (except reading ISTJ's... haha.. paradox!) That doesn't mean I'm wrong at typing them though.. but I could be. 

Also one thing @Stephen said that is resonating with me is this: 
_*"The exception is when time is short or stress is high. The pleasantries go out the window and I start doing as much of the work myself as possible. Delegation takes time and finesse. Doing it all myself is faster and simpler."*_
Classic thinker!!! just sayin.. I'd have more trouble with weather he's an *e* or an *i* than weather or not he's an *f* or a *t*. 

AND HE'S DEFINATELY NOT AN ESTJ.. for the reasons you put here:
_"*But I can tell you outright that you ain't an ESTJ, that's for sure. ESTJs are impersonal, often intimidating and they fail to consider other's feelings constantly. ESTJ is the personality type management roles were invented for!*_"
I was just telling @Stephen this the other night... but in a different way.


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## BearRight (Mar 6, 2010)

Heather White Karnas said:


> @_BearRight_
> Possibly ISFJ.. But i gotta go with my gut here that he's an ISTJ.. and it (my gut instincts) have not been wrong about too much (except reading ISTJ's... haha.. paradox!) That doesn't mean I'm wrong at typing them though.. but I could be.
> 
> Also one thing @_Stephen_ said that is resonating with me is this:
> ...


Yes, he's definately not an ESTJ. That's certain! But if we are so certain about that, why do we suggest he could be an ISTJ? They aren't from different planets, the other is just extraverted.

ISFJ or ISTJ. Let's toss a coin!


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

BearRight said:


> You could be right. I think Stephen is either an ISTJ or an ISFJ, we can probably narrow it down to ISxJ. What do you think, Heather White Karnas, can we narrow it down? He doesn't seem to be an ESTJ, and I don't think he is an ESFJ either. ISxJ males can look deceptively similar, I'm sure, and that makes them difficult to type.
> 
> A visible difference could be that ISFJs are warm and ISTJs cold. Isn't Stephen quite warm?


very warm to us.. but there was a time when I needed him to deal with me with warmth and delicacy and he didn't know how to respond to me so he i don't respond at all.. that seemed cold. Not that I don't understand.. and not that I think he is cold at all... but it seemed that way at the time... *again*.. Chris does this to me often seeming emotionally cold.. but it's just that they don't know how to deal with things they don't understand (other's meanings and respondent emotions to their actions) and so it takes them more introspecting to figure it out than an E/N/F/x. An E/N/F/x would either be perceptive enough to already know and respond accordingly or talk it out immediately so as to deal with it openly if they didn't understand. ANYWHO.. not cold.. but using his thinking to figure it out. 

My ISTJ ex could be very warm and loving.. as long as things were ok. If things were not ok he seemed emotionally cold.. but that was because he was introspecting.. and when things were being discussed his coldness continued because he was using his head to make decisions on how to feel and what actions should be taken... but after things went back to normal his warmth returned... 

@Stephen is in no position of threat by any of us and not truly invested having nothing much to really lose.. so he can feel comfortable around us and his warmth may be more freely expressed here.. even making it seem like he's truly caring for us.. (not saying you don't care Stephen) but it's the ones he truly cares about that he probably stumbles around especially with trying not to seem cold or inconsiderate.. too mentally driven and not emotionally intuitive enough, leading you to think about it a lot before you act.... correct me if I'm wrong @Stephen... this would make you an introverted sensing thinker.. Just sayin'.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

Heather White Karnas said:


> I am an extrovert but I want to hang out with my family in the most relaxing and non energy expensive way that I can after a long hard day at work. I usually I *DO NOT* want to be around friends after a long hard day at work, because it is a little more taxing to be around them than it is to be around my family..... but I hate the thought of being home alone after work no matter how hard it was.... unless I have my kids by myself without help and I know they will be rambunctious that particular evening and I'm too tired to deal with it... then I want to be alone....


This is interesting. I haven't really considered time with my daughter as time spent with others in this way. It's a responsibility, so I simply do it without any consideration of whether I'm in the mood to do it or not. Kind of like going to work, but of course I get to be the boss, and the employee might throw a temper tantrum if I'm not making exactly what she wants for dinner.



> Also I want to be alone if I am working on some project or in the throes of some stupid new obsession.... because I am easily distracted.... and can't wait to get to it during my alone time.


I can be this way, too. Not so much easily distracted, but enthusiastic about getting to something of particular interest.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

kittychris07 said:


> Did you usually seek out the company of friends to de-stress when you were younger, or did you recharge alone? (To account for the fact that people supposedly get more balanced as they mature).


I recharged alone. When I was young, when I had any friends at all, I didn't have many. The ones I had I spent time with one-on-one, and they were stay at home types as well. When I was in high school, this changed a bit. I had a group of friends. We sometimes went out to the movies, but for the most part we were a bunch of nerds at one of our parents' houses playing Dungeons & Dragons in the basement, eating pizza, drinking grape soda, and listening to Iron Maiden.



> By ambivert, I meant that maybe you were pretty evenly balanced in the introvert/extrovert spectrum


I have tested very close to the middle. I'm looking for a type on either side, though, so I can see the functions involved and understand them.



> I guess another introversion/extroversion question would be, do you think to talk, or talk to think? (Do you usually think about what you are saying before you say it, or do you start talking to figure out your views on the answer?).


I usually figure it out as I go along in casual conversation. If it's a more serious conversation, or it's with someone whose feelings I choose to be particularly cautious with, I will consider my words, and will talk a _lot_ less.

@kittychris07, I noticed while quoting you that you're using a special font in your posts called calibri. Unless the member viewing your post has that font installed on their computer (and none of mine, Mac, Windows, or Android, do), they will see your posts in the default font. If you want to use a custom font, I'd recommend a more common one, such as Helvetica, Arial, or Garamond. Better yet, perhaps an unusual color?


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

BearRight said:


> But I can tell you outright that you ain't an ESTJ, that's for sure. ESTJs are impersonal, often intimidating and they fail to consider other's feelings constantly. ESTJ is the personality type management roles were invented for!


On behalf of an ESTJ friend of mine who is none of these things, um, you're wrong. :tongue: She's very personable, unintimidating (despite being very energetic), and she's very compassionate and understanding.



> I just don't see extraverted thinking in your answers at all, and if you were an ISTJ, you would use it more than me. That doesn't seem to be the case.


Please elaborate on how I'm using introverted thinking.



> You're an ISFJ! Do you have a desire to serve others?


Not to serve them. But I do feel a natural tendency to help those who ask, or who appear to need help, when I'm able to.



> Do you have a need to be needed?


No. I would not call it a need. I was in an unhealthy relationship for more than a decade that functioned on my end mainly on the basis of my feeling useful. If it hadn't been codependent, I think it may have been more successful.



> You do not enjoy giving orders?


I don't enjoy it, no. It's kind of a hassle. I'd rather do the work myself than deal with the interpersonal aspect of delegation.



> ISFJs are good in management roles, but they have the Behind-the-Scenes interaction style that you identified more with. But as I have said before, I don't know any ISFJ men, I have nothing to compare with really.


OK. As I said, I do fine in management, when I can bring myself to delegate. And when I'm tasked to, it's my job, so I do it.


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## Konan (Apr 20, 2011)

You're sounding more like an ISFJ to me.


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## kittychris07 (Jun 15, 2010)

Stephen said:


> I recharged alone. When I was young, when I had any friends at all, I didn't have many. The ones I had I spent time with one-on-one, and they were stay at home types as well. When I was in high school, this changed a bit. I had a group of friends. We sometimes went out to the movies, but for the most part we were a bunch of nerds at one of our parents' houses playing Dungeons & Dragons in the basement, eating pizza, drinking grape soda, and listening to Iron Maiden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry about the fonts. The reason I used calibri was that I was typing in Microsoft Word (2007) for some parts of the post. Calibri is the default. I wasn't looking for a special font. 

The first response (about when you were younger) you gave sounded more introverted, and the response about think-to-talk/talk-to-think sounded more extroverted (perhaps). But then again, I'm certainly an introvert, and occasionally I think to talk (only when I am confident on a topic). But then this could go into a J vs P preference rather than E vs. I. 

I guess these questions are not perfect because you can take into account so many angles with personality questions.


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## BearRight (Mar 6, 2010)

> On behalf of an ESTJ friend of mine who is none of these things, um, you're wrong. :tongue: She's very personable, unintimidating (despite being very energetic), and she's very compassionate and understanding.


Ok, you're right to some extent, because many well-developed ESTJs have achieved this, but it's kind of an act in reality. They put in a lot of effort when they want to appear personable and good listeners, they tone their personality down intentionally. ESTJ women are encouraged to appear more "femine", ESTJ men are probably more typical representatives of the type generally. I do know an ESTJ woman and in my opinion she is still quite intimidating when she appears warm, because the way she asks questions is intimidating - everything is okay as long as she doesn't interrogate. Of the 16 personality types, ESTJs along with ENTJs can still be considered impersonal, often intimidating and not in touch with others feelings when compared to the other types. But we are losing track here, there's no point in debating this.



> Please elaborate on how I'm using introverted thinking.


I said that I don't see extraverted thinking in your answers at all. I didn't say anything about introverted thinking, although I have said in another post before that if you don't use extraverted thinking, then you would have to use introverted thinking instead. Asking me to elaborate on how you use introverted thinking isn't the right question to ask. It's evident that you didn't use extraverted thinking here.

I'm saying you're an ISFJ in my opinion.

By the way, this post is extraverted thinking heavy: _Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process._


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

Stephen said:


> I noticed while quoting you that you're using a special font in your posts called calibri. Unless the member viewing your post has that font installed on their computer (and none of mine, Mac, Windows, or Android, do), they will see your posts in the default font. If you want to use a custom font, I'd recommend a more common one, such as Helvetica, Arial, or Garamond. Better yet, perhaps an unusual color?


So observant.. NICE! Good quality to possess.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

BearRight said:


> Ok, you're right to some extent, because many well-developed ESTJs have achieved this, but it's kind of an act in reality. They put in a lot of effort when they want to appear personable and good listeners, they tone their personality down intentionally. ESTJ women are encouraged to appear more "femine", ESTJ men are probably more typical representatives of the type generally. I do know an ESTJ woman and in my opinion she is still quite intimidating when she appears warm, because the way she asks questions is intimidating - everything is okay as long as she doesn't interrogate. Of the 16 personality types, ESTJs along with ENTJs can still be considered impersonal, often intimidating and not in touch with others feelings when compared to the other types. But we are losing track here, there's no point in debating this.


 agreed.. my best friend (girl) is an ESTJ. She is intimidating as well.. but considerate to me.. and loving towards me.. but it's because of who I am to her.. and she does have to tone down the abrasiveness and work to keep it in check.. most describe her as BLUNT/HONEST.. (rude even.) She doesn't mean to be.. she just is. As a male I wouldn't be able to stand her.. lol


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## BearRight (Mar 6, 2010)

Heather White Karnas said:


> agreed.. my best friend (girl) is an ESTJ. She is intimidating as well.. but considerate to me.. and loving towards me.. but it's because of who I am to her.. and she does have to tone down the abrasiveness and work to keep it in check.. most describe her as BLUNT/HONEST.. (rude even.) She doesn't mean to be.. she just is. As a male I wouldn't be able to stand her.. lol


My former roommate was a male ESTJ. Yes, abrasiveness, bluntness, honesty etc. fit the bill, but they do their best to tone it down, thank God for that. Once my roommate invited three of his friends to come by - guess what? They were classmates, yes, but all of them were ESTJs! Imagine four ESTJs sitting at one table? Very, very intimidating!


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## kittychris07 (Jun 15, 2010)

One thing I have to ask: What exactly does it mean to be a feeler or a thinker? I thought that the difference lies in what leads a person to make the decisions: logic or how people will be affected. 

I ask because I am an ISFJ, and yet I can still relate to not necessarily understanding how people feel about issues. Usually I would expect someone to be direct with me and tell me how he or she feels about something, because I do not trust myself to be able to pick up on others feelings. I wouldn’t necessarily know how to respond if a friend was having a problem, though I would try to listen and offer sympathy. I don’t think I offend many people, but occasionally I have been unintentionally offensive (though granted, this is often under stress or when acting in immaturely in situations that are related to morals—being an Enneagram one hasn’t served me well in all occasions. When I was younger I sometimes offended people, but I think that was due to not placing much value on relationships with others). Sometimes I am uncomfortable with expressing my feelings (often because I would fear feeling vulnerable to others and/or I don’t want to dump my problems on someone else to have to deal with), and as a result I haven’t always been the best at expressing my feelings. All of these things I listed about myself have all been discussed in this thread as issues that thinkers are more likely to have. But, I think I’m still a feeler regardless due to the factors that I take into account when making decisions, and because many of the ISFJ aspects describe me. 

At the same time, I think that I am most in the middle on the F/T preference and had a hard type figuring out which one I was. 

Maybe ENFPs are really good at understanding people’s feelings? 

*Heather White Kansas*: I think that you are right about the talk-to-think and think-to-talk question. Now if only I could figure out how to highlight people’s names with yellow to tag them (although this has been explained to me before. )


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

BearRight said:


> My former roommate was a male ESTJ. Yes, abrasiveness, bluntness, honesty etc. fit the bill, but they do their best to tone it down, thank God for that. Once my roommate invited three of his friends to come by - guess what? They were classmates, yes, but all of them were ESTJs! Imagine four ESTJs sitting at one table? Very, very intimidating!


 I could have kept up... but there would have been a brawl.. lol.


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## BearRight (Mar 6, 2010)

Heather White Karnas said:


> I could have kept up... but there would have been a brawl.. lol.


I felt like a black sheep in that company. Four obnoxious, loud and aggressive ESTJs and then one ENFP. Didn't just quite fit in, LOL. Gladiator brawl or something, one versus four, hmmmm...


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

kittychris07 said:


> One thing I have to ask: What exactly does it mean to be a feeler or a thinker? I thought that the difference lies in what leads a person to make the decisions: logic or how people will be affected.
> 
> I ask because I am an ISFJ, and yet I can still relate to not necessarily understanding how people feel about issues. Usually I would expect someone to be direct with me and tell me how he or she feels about something, because I do not trust myself to be able to pick up on others feelings. I wouldn’t necessarily know how to respond if a friend was having a problem, though I would try to listen and offer sympathy. I don’t think I offend many people, but occasionally I have been unintentionally offensive (though granted, this is often under stress or when acting in immaturely in situations that are related to morals—being an Enneagram one hasn’t served me well in all occasions. When I was younger I sometimes offended people, but I think that was due to not placing much value on relationships with others). Sometimes I am uncomfortable with expressing my feelings (often because I would fear feeling vulnerable to others and/or I don’t want to dump my problems on someone else to have to deal with), and as a result I haven’t always been the best at expressing my feelings. All of these things I listed about myself have all been discussed in this thread as issues that thinkers are more likely to have. But, I think I’m still a feeler regardless due to the factors that I take into account when making decisions, and because many of the ISFJ aspects describe me.
> 
> ...


 Knowing how someone feels about something and being pretty sure about it or figuring it out easily is an intuitive action (N vs. S). I don't think that feelers do everything based on how it will affect others.. but more how it makes the feeler him/herself feel to do it. I think both feelers and thinkers take into consideration how their actions might affect others they love. You had one part of it dead on though.. thinkers make decisions using logic instead of emotion.

You are definitely a sensor based on what you have described.. not having much to do with being a feeler. You can be non intuitive about other's feelings and still be very in tuned with feelings of your own or in general when informed about them by your person of interest.

yes enfp's are very good at understanding other's feelings... even if the person of interest doesn't understand their own feelings sometimes.. or doesn't even know they are having those feelings. CURSE it is.. lol. That is our intuition and feeling working together along with other aspects of each function.

Put an @ symbol in front of the name you want to mention and don't use a space between the @ symbol and that person's name.. make sure it is spelled correctly or it will not work... and make sure you capitalize correctly as well.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

BearRight said:


> I felt like a black sheep in that company. Four obnoxious, loud and aggressive ESTJs and then one ENFP. Didn't just quite fit in, LOL.


I am an aggressive enfp when need be. My dad (who's type I'm not sure of) is vveeerrrryyy aggressive.. I think he is an ESFJ.. not sure. He's an ass.. and I learn quickly.. I'm the only one who can deal with him strongly to diffuse him quickly in my family... haha. Comes from being the oldest I think. And my mother is passive.... 

anyways... sorry.. we are off point... back to @Stephen.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

BearRight said:


> I do know an ESTJ woman and in my opinion she is still quite intimidating when she appears warm, because the way she asks questions is intimidating - everything is okay as long as she doesn't interrogate. Of the 16 personality types, ESTJs along with ENTJs can still be considered impersonal, often intimidating and not in touch with others feelings when compared to the other types. But we are losing track here, there's no point in debating this.


Perhaps then it's possible that I find conversation with her as refreshing and comfortable as I do _because_ she's an ESTJ. I feel that I can be myself and speak plainly without hurting her feelings. This is something I'm only realizing now. When I speak to some of my other friends, I hurt their feelings rather easily.

I consciously decided to drop the pleasantries in conversation in this thread a page ago, to see what would happen. Now, I sense (perhaps wrongly) that I've mildly offended kittychris07 by mentioning the font in her post, and yourself by disagreeing with your assessment of ESTJs.



> I said that I don't see extraverted thinking in your answers at all. I didn't say anything about introverted thinking, although I have said in another post before that if you don't use extraverted thinking, then you would have to use introverted thinking instead. Asking me to elaborate on how you use introverted thinking isn't the right question to ask. It's evident that you didn't use extraverted thinking here.


I read what you wrote, then made a logical step forward from it. If I'm ISTJ, I'm using Te. If I'm ISFJ, I'm using Ti. My question was certainly the right question to ask, because it was a question I wished to have answered. It's fine if you haven't been able to detect my use of Ti in my writing, and instead are going on the fact that you can't detect Te, either. The problem becomes that I also can't detect either of these, and it's because I can't tell the difference yet. I was hoping that since you understand these, you might be able to illustrate the difference using my own writing, so I might better understand what I'm doing that points one way rather than the other.



> By the way, this post is extraverted thinking heavy: _Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process._


Did I just do that above, as well?


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

Being a feeler doesn't have much to do with emotional expression, but whether or not you make decisions based on your feelings. Do your reactions stem from an emotional place or a logical place? That distinction will give you some clarity in the F vs. T conundrum.

As for Fe vs. Fi - the the way I understand it is that Fe makes judgments based on group consensus whereas Fi makes judgments based on internal/personal values. Don't quote me on that though. 

My thoughts are that you are an ISTJ that for whatever reason, be it you are well-rounded or are under stress, is accessing tertiary Fi and inferior Ne and utilizing them more than the stereotypical ISTJ might.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

kittychris07 said:


> *Heather White Kansas*: I think that you are right about the talk-to-think and think-to-talk question. Now if only I could figure out how to highlight people’s names with yellow to tag them (although this has been explained to me before. )


When you're writing a reply, click "Go Advanced." Select the text of the person's name that you've typed, and click the little speaker icon in the toolbar to make it a mention (or surround it with MENTION tags by just typing them in). When you click the Post button it will make it a mention if you've spelled the name correctly. Capitalization isn't important, it will fix it for you in the final post.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

sRae said:


> Being a feeler doesn't have much to do with emotional expression, but whether or not you make decisions based on your feelings. Do your reactions stem from an emotional place or a logical place? That distinction will give you some clarity in the F vs. T conundrum.


I think the majority of the time, my decisions and reactions are based in logic. T. When speaking to sensitive people, I will change my reactions to suit them better, saying less, and being more cautious about what I say. F. I think my most natural state, such as when I'm alone, is very regimented and cold. That makes me think T, and logical. I put a lot of energy into my exchanges with more emotional people than myself, and am most relaxed, comfortable and natural when chatting with friends who are not so sensitive. I adapt to what I believe others want from an exchange with me. That makes me think F.



> As for Fe vs. Fi - the the way I understand it is that Fe makes judgement based on group consensus whereas Fi makes judgments based on internal/personal values. Don't quote me on that though.


Just did.

This was how Fe and Fi were explained to me, as well. Perhaps it's easier to see in others than one's self.



> My thoughts are that you are an ISTJ that for whatever reason, be it you are well-rounded or are under stress, is capable of accessing tertiary Fi and inferior Ne and utilize them more than the stereotypical ISTJ might.


I was told that tertiary functions are first available from our teen years, and inferior not more than a decade after. As to development, that's another matter. I think if I am an ISTJ, it is as you say, and my Fi and Ne are strong. People have suggested to me that having a child and long associations with other types can bring such functions out. I'm raising a six year old girl on my own, and I was married to an INFJ for more than a decade. If it is true that need brings such things to the surface, dealing with a small girl and a Ni dominant wife might fit the bill.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

Stephen said:


> I think the majority of the time, my decisions and reactions are based in logic. T. When speaking to sensitive people, I will change my reactions to suit them better, saying less, and being more cautious about what I say. F.


Chris had to work hard to speak to me a way that doesn't seem cold or uncaring too.. especially when he's tired.. and he did... he was very considerate of others... always has been. Very caring too...but the fact that you are considering others' feelings doesn't mean you're a feeler.

If you were interacting with others through _your_ feelings then you would be a feeler.. this is why you have to think about it so much to try not to hurt others' feelings... because you interact on a more intelectual or mental level and not through emotions. I have to (beeing a feeler) try hard not to use my emotions when interacting with Chris or most ST's.. I have to consciously try to not make an emotional connection with them when they make me '_FEEL_' a certain way. it is difficult.. the difficulty makes me a feeler.. if I were a thinker... we would be almost always connecting on an intellectual/mental level, and emotionless connection would be effortless. Almost like coworkers or business partners.. connections and sometimes even deep connections but rarely with emotion involved. And with lovers.. connections mostly deep ones.. and rarely ever connecting on JUST a intellectual level.. emotions are usually involved with love connections... Thinkers can interact with most everyone without emotional attachment to the interaction... Feelers have a harder time interacting without attaching their own emotions to the interaction.

EDIT: Also I know first hand that a thinker can handle relating to/sympathizing with/advising upon a feeler's emotions as long as that emotion is not connected to that particular thinker... When I am having an emotional outpouring Chris can be way more supportive/understanding/empathetic when it isn't about him or because of him.. even good emotions that I have in connection to/with him made him uncomfortable if I shared it with him. He wanted me to have the emotions about/because of him but kinda keep it to myself or at least not discuss it... All of my other emotions with anything else he wanted to be there for me for. Does this sound familiar @Stephen. 

YOU ARE A *T*!!! I knew that with in the first week that I met you because of our first miscommunication.. Do you remember? After that I was sure you were _not_ an *N* and that you _were_ a *T*. The fact that you had no idea how you were making me feel makes you an *S*. You wanted nothing to do with connecting with me emotionally... but you were trying to help me with my emotions and my thinking as well... and that made me have emotions.. but it didn't make you have any.. and we were interacting in the same exact manner, talking about the same things, in the same way.. but I felt it.. and you thought it. I hope this makes sense. 

That is one time when I knew that if I wanted to keep your brains in my corner of the world I *HAD* to not let my emotions lead me (or at least not let them get in the way) when interacting with you... It was different with @sRae. We connected emotionally.. immediately. She is also a feeler.


Stephen said:


> I think my most natural state, such as when I'm alone, is very regimented and cold. That makes me think T, and logical. I put a lot of energy into my exchanges with more emotional people than myself, and am most relaxed, comfortable and natural when chatting with friends who are not so sensitive. I adapt to what I believe others want from an exchange with me. That makes me think F.


I am well adaptable too.. I can turn off my emotional attachment when interacting with people if I want to.. it just takes more effort. Whereas it takes more effort for you to turn yours on.



Stephen said:


> I was told that tertiary functions are first available from our teen years, and inferior not more than a decade after. As to development, that's another matter. I think if I am an ISTJ, it is as you say, and my Fi and Ne are strong. People have suggested to me that having a child and long associations with other types can bring such functions out. I'm raising a six year old girl on my own, and I was married to an INFJ for more than a decade. If it is true that need brings such things to the surface, dealing with a small girl and a Ni dominant wife might fit the bill.


agreed


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

sRae said:


> Being a feeler doesn't have much to do with emotional expression, but whether or not you make decisions based on your feelings. Do your reactions stem from an emotional place or a logical place? That distinction will give you some clarity in the F vs. T conundrum.


agreed. being a feeler isn't the result of our actions.. it is what leads us to that action.../ being a thinker isn't the result presentation that everyone else sees... it is what leads them to the result.




sRae said:


> My thoughts are that you are an ISTJ that for whatever reason, be it you are well-rounded or are under stress, is accessing tertiary Fi and inferior Ne and utilizing them more than the stereotypical ISTJ might.


 I think he is under stress even if unknowingly, and he is also going through some changes and that could very well be forcing some function use that is normally more suppressed. However I can plainly see his ISTJness... as I understand ISTJness to be.


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## kittychris07 (Jun 15, 2010)

@Stephen: Thanks for explaining the highlighting thing to me in so much detail. You are awesome! Sorry if I came across as being offended by the comment you made about the calibri font. I was just trying to explain what I did, since I may use the calibri font in the future. Though apparently I just realized that the font in here is Verdana, so I should be able to change my own font in Word to match the text in the thread. 

@Heather White Karnas: Sorry I mispelled your name earlier. I just noticed the mistake.


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## BearRight (Mar 6, 2010)

sRae said:


> Being a feeler doesn't have much to do with emotional expression, but whether or not you make decisions based on your feelings. Do your reactions stem from an emotional place or a logical place? That distinction will give you some clarity in the F vs. T conundrum.


My extremely smart INTJ friend said that "Humans make all important decisions based on feelings, never based on reason." I think she has a point there.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

BearRight said:


> My extremely smart INTJ friend said that "Humans make all important decisions based on feelings, never based on reason." I think she has a point there.


 not true though.  If it is then I am even more depressed!! So you people must let me know if this is true or if you believe it is...


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

Heather White Karnas said:


> not true though.  If it is then I am even more depressed!! So you people must let me know if this is true or if you believe it is...


I disagree with the notion. Every human is capable of making important decisions from an emotional place, even if that emotion is fear or pride or what have you. But IMO thinkers prefer to utilize logic and reason, or at least what they believe to be logic and reason over emotions when making a decision that could have a lot of impact.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

sRae said:


> I disagree with the notion. Every human is capable of making important decisions from an emotional place, even if that emotion is fear or pride or what have you. But IMO thinkers prefer to utilize logic and reason, or at least what they believe to be logic and reason over emotions when making a decision that could have a lot of impact.


thank God... that means that I have at least had true love once in my life and lost it for good reasons and that my ISTJ wasn't lying about the reasons.. because if everyone made big/important decisions based on emotion then that would have meant that I am the dumbest girl in the world and believe everyone's lies... which would definitely turn me into the most paranoid person EVER.. 

I'll take your answer as fact sRae.. I have to right now. So thank you!


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

Heather White Karnas said:


> thank God... that means that I have at least had true love once in my life and lost it for good reasons and that my ISTJ wasn't lying about the reasons.. because if everyone made big/important decisions based on emotion then that would have meant that I am the dumbest girl in the world and believe everyone's lies... which would definitely turn me into the most paranoid person EVER..
> 
> I'll take your answer as fact sRae.. I have to right now. So thank you!


I don't know it is a fact, but just my feelings on the topic. I mean if everyone made the most important decisions on feeling alone, then there are a lot of cold-hearted and awful people out there who are entirely selfish. Which could also be the case, but I tend to think that isn't true. Don't discount what you've had as far as love, even if you have lost it because it never would have existed if it weren't true.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

sRae said:


> I don't know it is a fact, but just my feelings on the topic. I mean if everyone made the most important decisions on feeling alone, then there are a lot of cold-hearted and awful people out there who are entirely selfish. Which could also be the case, but I tend to think that isn't true. Don't discount what you've had as far as love, even if you have lost it because it never would have existed if it weren't true.


 I'm prone to believe I was used for this reason or that by this person or that if they are capable of leaving the relationship for reasons I don't understand or agree with.. anyways.. sorry.. I feel bad.. don't wanna make this thread about me.. LOL. 

back to @Stephen


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## kittychris07 (Jun 15, 2010)

Maybe the quote about all decisions based on feelings didn't mean quite that all decisions were entirely based on feelings. Even though a thinker may have reasons for making most decision, maybe the INTJ in the quote meant to imply that there will be some feeling that goes into every decision. For example, if someone has decided to make a decision based on the criterion of what is most profitable (and of course logic will be used to determine what is most profitable), the fact that the decision-maker decided to make the decision to use the most profitable method might be based in feeling (or something else subjective?). Maybe he could have chosen another method that was less profitable but that would have helped the decision-maker in some other way. But choosing the most profitably method makes him feel better.

Okay, this message is extremely unclear and poorly written, but I am too lazy to come up with a better example or a better explanation. I hope people will understand the example.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

kittychris07 said:


> Maybe the quote about all decisions based on feelings didn't mean quite that all decisions were entirely based on feelings. Even though a thinker may have reasons for making most decision, maybe the INTJ in the quote meant to imply that there will be some feeling that goes into every decision. For example, if someone has decided to make a decision based on the criterion of what is most profitable (and of course logic will be used to determine what is most profitable), the fact that the decision-maker decided to make the decision to use the most profitable method might be based in feeling (or something else subjective?). Maybe he could have chosen another method that was less profitable but that would have helped the decision-maker in some other way. But choosing the most profitably method makes him feel better.
> 
> Okay, this message is extremely unclear and poorly written, but I am too lazy to come up with a better example or a better explanation. I hope people will understand the example.


 I understood and I agree with this way of putting it completely.. My ISTJ never felt good about making a decision that was logically most probable to not be beneficial... Even if it made his heart hurt to do it.. that's what I chose to believe in him.. and that's what he showed me as well. I am more apt to try things that are less probable to work realistically if it means that my heart doesn't have to break to make that decision. I am also more apt to believe that I can make things work that seem far fetched to most people if I feel very strongly about it or want it bad enough.. 

Maybe this is actually right on point of this thread after all .. I am a feeler.. ohhh.. such a feeler... and this is my perspective.. I am sure that I don't share this perspective with very many thinkers.  Maybe it can help clarify the difference more.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

To everyone who contributed in this thread, thank you. I have now read through the descriptions of all 16 MBTI types in detail using multiple sources and I have determined that I most align to type istj.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

good call.........


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

OK, if anyone thinks they're good at typing on sight, I'll ask that they have a look at the video I posted on here last night for the video challenge. I'm open to thoughts and specific observations on the video, whether it's things I said or mannerisms, expressions, whatever.

Click here to be linked there.

My biggest observation on watching it after filming was, "whoa, it's true... why aren't I smiling?"


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

Stephen said:


> OK, if anyone thinks they're good at typing on sight, I'll ask that they have a look at the video I posted on here last night for the video challenge. I'm open to thoughts and specific observations on the video, whether it's things I said or mannerisms, expressions, whatever.
> 
> Click here to be linked there.
> 
> My biggest observation on watching it after filming was, "whoa, it's true... why aren't I smiling?"


You seemed pretty ISTJ to me, though you were especially wistful when talking about your daughter and how she is free of shame, that was beautiful


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

sRae said:


> You seemed pretty ISTJ to me, though you were especially wistful when talking about your daughter and how she is free of shame, that was beautiful


Thanks... I was shocked at myself when watching it afterward. "Is that fool gonna cry?... oh wait, that's me."


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