# OCD and cognitive functions?



## Chell (Dec 25, 2009)

Basically I want to know in which ways OCD would affect cognitive functions.

I recall that in the topic where... some guy claims to have developed his shadow functions or whatever... @_JungyesMBTIno_ pointed out that would mean an ego-dystonic disorder such as OCD.
I'm interested in knowing how my own OCD affected my personality (because it did "reverse" my personality in some ways... maybe I should post about it in another topic.) so I tried to find out how that would work...

And honestly, right now I have no idea where that came from. I did my (google) research, but the first results were scientific articles that failed to determine in which ways OCD would affect cognitive development.
I can't find much on the subject based in Jungian analysis either. All I know is from, well, cases and classes. IIRC according to Freud on the "Rat Man" at the core of OCD there was a conflict between intense love and hate for the parental figure or whatever, and one of those had to be repressed, and would produce the symptoms. Anyway, do you think this can be thought of in terms of shadow functions? Yay or nay...?


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## Sinthemoon (Jan 9, 2013)

Chell said:


> Basically I want to know in which ways OCD would affect cognitive functions.
> 
> I recall that in the topic where... some guy claims to have developed his shadow functions or whatever... @_JungyesMBTIno_ pointed out that would mean an ego-dystonic disorder such as OCD.
> I'm interested in knowing how my own OCD affected my personality (because it did "reverse" my personality in some ways... maybe I should post about it in another topic.) so I tried to find out how that would work...
> ...


That's a _very_ good question. One reason it might not help to see it that way is that OCD usually needs medication, so it might be better left in the realm of psychiatry than psychology (as opposed to personality disorders, for example). There is also good evidence of the genetic background. Now, could it be that what predisposes to OCD also determines what functions a given person will be most likely to develop? This sounds like a sound hypothesis, and I'd look that way. Interestingly, as an INFP, your dominant function is Fi, which means that your inferior function is Te. Te is about controlling the environment and the conditions for something to happen. If you feel like you have to do it because of your illness, it makes sense that you would reject it growing up. Another factor is that Ne, which can be quite allarmist if you feel bad about yourself and should expect consequences, as it predicts what will happen around you.

Basically, OCD is about controlling the environment in maladaptive ways to avoid predictions which are not likely. We don't need to think about your shadow functions to see how OCD could affect an INFP and cause a lot of suffering.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Okay, here's what I meant by that. First off, obsessive compulsive disorder is one of the only mental disorders identified by the DSM, among other sources, as an ego dystonic disorder (this means that basically, this disorder causes suffering over things that the person doesn't want to care about - they suffer over stuff that they would never want to accept the consequences of being true - they obsess over repetitive thoughts that they do not actually care about (so, it tends to seem to come out of nowhere) to avoid it's consequences - unlike anorexia nervosa, which is it commonly contrasted against due to the latter being an ego syntonic disorder, it is not the result of a desire to actually have the disorder for the sake of being thin, or what have you - they really don't want the things they obsess over, so they might compulsively try to counteract them from taking on some kind of reality (e.g. obsessive counting to prevent superstitions from coming true, obsessive intrusive thoughts about how much you hate the thing you love (you try to think of every way the ego dystonic thought is not true, like why you actually love something, even though your mind won't stop obsessively causing you to fear that you hate it on some level), such hideous things as that). Your type has nothing to do with mental illnesses (I suppose it might potentially mess around with functions, but that wouldn't mean anything other than your dealing with your mind a lot), although Jung did seem to see a correlation between the "attitude" and neurosis (e.g. too much abnormal extraversion and introversion - not functions though). What I meant by that was basically that the unconscious functions are unconscious because they are ego dystonic - that's just another way of saying that they're kept out of consciousness with those other things that get repressed because they are counter-productive to you - that doesn't mean there's a link between functions and OCD, but that accessing the ego dystonic functions to make them conscious would be the equivalent of going into that negative side of consciousness, which would bring ego dystonic content to the surface that might be unsettling to you (but OCD is a disorder because, unlike most ego dystonic content, it impair one in everyday life and can in the most severe cases, destroy one's sense of mental well-being - if you've never had it, you'll never understand it - it's more severe than say, the ego dystonic hunch you might've had about someone potentially stabbing you in the back based on real world evidence) - I don't think the unconscious functions would be negative in a disordered way, because they back up the conscious ones, but they start to basically bring mild negativity into the picture of consciousness - this would be like remembering something you didn't want to remember at the wrong time, and then, it might make you feel more insecure than you were before for reasons only you would know). Associating disorders with type is totally the wrong idea though. Any type would suffer greatly from this - saying this would only be bad for INFPs is absurd. Your functions have nothing to do with it, because any two people with it might have totally different functions, and you can't directly point to predictable determinants in the environment as to how this disorder comes on in people - it's probably a genetic tendency or perhaps Freud's view has something to do with it's onset. It might deal with too much exposure to the the unconscious mind, perhaps (Freudian ideas might explain some of this). There are many theories about why it might exist.


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## Chell (Dec 25, 2009)

@Sinthemoon:

Thank you! (and I really mean it.) And yes, I agree. I'm sorry, I was thinking about it from my own perspective, a case that went without any medicine or professional care. 
And yes, that's what I was thinking as well. Scientifically, there's sufficient evidence to justify that there's at least one kind of OCD determined by biological factors. However biological and social aspects are interwined, so even if we assume that biological factors are the cause, they would produce effects that could be evaluated through methods such as psychoanalysis.
Is it the most adequate approach? Probably not. Psychoanalytic therapy doesn't seem to be successful in treating OCD, and Freud himself, even though he ventured into it - albeit a case of OCD developed later in life, true - and claimed to be successful in treating it, also called it a mad disease, something out of the real... I mean, he didn't understand it himself. And considering how "subjective" psychoanalysis is, I doubt it would be the most efficient approach.  But it's food for thought.
Also, I should have mentioned that now I'm pretty sure I'm not INFP but unhealthy INTJ instead... and I really should explain it all in another topic.
(inb4 some pissed off NTJ unleashes all of their rage because a "weak INFP" is in fact a "cold-blooded, bright, wonderful INTJ" and "of course they must be delusional because I'm a special snowflake and INFPs like to entertain the thought of being special snowflakes". And I'd ask myself why I have a hard time dealing with people...)


@JungyesMBTIno:

Okay, first off, I'm a psychology student who developed severe OCD at age 6, be sure that you don't need to tell me what OCD or any ego dystonic disorder is and that I'm not basing this off some wikipedia reading (like you seem to be doing).
Second, remember when someone said you should review your posts on my topic concerning the nature of Ni, because nobody wants to follow your whole train of thought as marvelous as it is? Yeah, you really should.
Sorry, I don't like to offend people because I'm well-educated; But I'm finally seeing that I really shouldn't have thrown away a talent as valuable as my sharp tongue, because sometimes people deserve it.
Aside from that, I'm not sure whether you're implying that I implied OCD has anything to do with "INFP" - I didn't; I said I was curious in regards to _myself_ and I don't think that in any way. But if anything, I do think that there might be a relation between INT(?)J and OCD, based on the nature of Ni, topics on INTJ forums, friends, etc. etc.
What I get from your explanation is that you yourself didn't really base it on anything, just like I didn't and that's why I was asking instead of affirming anything, but we seem to be thinking in the same direction.
It occurred to me that a person with OCD might, for one reason or another, have failed to develop the normal repression system (sorry, I don't know the appropriate expression in English), thus leading them to be permanently in touch with their shadow in some way, leading to symptoms in the form of obsessions aka intrusive thoughts leading to doubt, etc., and compulsions to calm them down. After all, it is known that severe OCD may "immobilize" a person. Naturally, because they simply cannot decide - both alternatives are equally intense, thus the love/hate metaphor, etc. And naturally many end up developing depression - unable to decide, do nothing, think nothing, become depressed.

I forgot why I went there and I'm hungry.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Woa, what? I was just deomnstrating how the only overlap, conceptually speaking, between OCD and type would be that they (the 4 unconscious functions) are in the realm of the ego dystonic. That's really it. I never in that original post intended to mean anything more than that (last thing we need is people believing that a personality hueristic has anything to do with the cause of their DSM mental illnesses). I addressed the INFP thing more at @Sinthemoon, not you. I've done plenty of research on the topic before, so that was the accumulation of the knowledge I have of it. If you want to know more about OCD, just Google it - this isn't a mental illness forum, so I'm not wasting my time posting links to sites on the disorder (that's why I sounded overly pedantic - because if anyone reading this thread is interested, they sure as hell are not getting links from me - they're here to read my understanding of it). Nothing about Jung would do with the causation of it. It might just manifest as a response to function-attitudes or what have you (I am NO EXPERT on what Jung was talking about about neurosis in Ch. 10 - you would have to research more of his works to figure that out - I'm not even sure experts have any idea, really). No one is permanently in touch with their shadow - in fact, no one ever can fully know their shadow - ego dystonic thoughts would certainly reflect the shadow though (the shadow is a fancy way of saying the stuff that you don't know about yourself (positive, negative, or neutral), such as with OCD, why you're obsessing about something that you never cared at all about before and you still don't like the thoughts, but can't stop having them anyway). It's unlikely abnormal repression would have to do with it, because obsessive compulsive thoughts come out of nowhere - they're not related to anything the person ever tried to repress (it's more likely, like what I've heard Jung say about schizophrenia, that they would be related to unconscious content) - also, it's often said that the doubt starts before the obsessions, not the other way around (the obsessions deal with irrational doubts) - I've heard it well put once on another forum that often, people with this problem are like chronic doubters gone pathological.


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## Chell (Dec 25, 2009)

@_JungyesMBTIno_:

ITT: assuming, but you didn't have to go out of your way to conceptualize something that was already given. Honestly I got your "_if you've never had it, you'll never understand it_" after that full-blown explanation as your way of saying "I don't believe what you're saying". Sorry if I jumped to any conclusions but that pissed me off deeply.

Now, on the actual subject, thanks for the input really.  I understand you're no expert in mental illnesses and I don't expect it either, I was just wondering if you had more information on the matter, because as I pointed out, I did my Google research and failed to find much. It's a subject that interests me on an academic level so I'll probably just do a library research on it anyway, I just wanted to know what other people think if anything at all.
I can really see what you mean, and yes we don't need people believing that, although I'm also leaning towards @_Sinthemoon_ in the matter of personality types and disorders... I do believe that the development of certain disorders may be related to personality types or cognitive functions or biological structure or what have you to some degree, while others may be entirely unrelated (say, those that are characterized by a particular set of visible symptoms that can be explained in many ways, as opposed to those characterized by particular cognitive effects, because why not...)
Hmm. Thanks for clarifying on how the shadow "works", I really don't know anything about that. Also, I didn't mean repression as in the defense mechanism, but rather the quality of the ego. As far as I remember, the ego itself has a mechanism that causes supression of the shadow, is that right? That's why I said I don't know the name of the mechanism in English.
Also, technically, the doubts/intrusive thoughts/mental processes are called obsessions, and the behaviors following them (to promote relief etc) are called compulsions. Chronic doubters gone pathological... that's interesting, but brings up the question of what defines the pathological... But I won't go there. 

But anyway, thanks really.  And sorry about jumping down on your throat.


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## Sinthemoon (Jan 9, 2013)

@JungyesMBTIno

I think we're all on the same page here. As @Chell mentionned, I tried to post about how the disease could be experienced from a specific point of view, INFP's. I hope I made myself clear enough that the answer as to how to react to the disease was not in pop psychology, but psychiatry.

Although it's important to specify that my posts here have don't represent professional but personal opinion, I happen to be an expert in mental illness in training, and I must say that the ego-dystonic aspect of OCD in DSM-IV, while peculiar, is to consider loosely; in fact, it's mainly there to exclude delusions. Patients' introspection on the fact that obsessions and compulsions are not causally linked can vary a lot.


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## Beauty for Ashes (Feb 6, 2013)

I am really interested in this topic because I have OCD as well and have been struggling to discover my type. I have a LOT in common with both INFPs and INFJs but the functions I use do not perfectly fit either group. After reading this, I'm wondering if my functions developed differently due to my obsessions/compulsions (but mostly just obsessions).


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## Chell (Dec 25, 2009)

sicaelliott said:


> I am really interested in this topic because I have OCD as well and have been struggling to discover my type. I have a LOT in common with both INFPs and INFJs but the functions I use do not perfectly fit either group. After reading this, I'm wondering if my functions developed differently due to my obsessions/compulsions (but mostly just obsessions).


Hi!  I read your topic in the INFP forums, actually! (...come to think of it, why do all the 'mistypes' and confused people end up on the INFP forums? That's just because INFPs are the nicest bunch, isn't it? That's pretty unfair.) Anyway, cognitive functions aside, I'd say that undoubtedly a disorder would play a role on that. Have you had it for some time? 
In any case, I hear it's common for someone's functions to not fit perfectly a group. Which makes sense, because that would mean a 'perfect', by-the-book development, and I doubt many people are in such a privileged position (in which they are never made to doubt themselves, forced to occupy a role etc.)


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Chell said:


> Basically I want to know in which ways OCD would affect cognitive functions.
> 
> I recall that in the topic where... some guy claims to have developed his shadow functions or whatever... @_JungyesMBTIno_ pointed out that would mean an ego-dystonic disorder such as OCD.
> I'm interested in knowing how my own OCD affected my personality (because it did "reverse" my personality in some ways... maybe I should post about it in another topic.) so I tried to find out how that would work...
> ...


Didn't Jung associate obsessions and compulsions with the inferior function manifestations of Ti doms? Psychasthenia? 
Is that what you're asking?


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## bobdaduck (Apr 24, 2010)

There was some theory on dom-tert loops which I'm not sure I believe in or know about but I remember it mentioning cognitive disorders there. It used the example of an Ni-Ti loop creating schizophrenia as Ti builds up complex systems and then Ni tears them down as being too narrow. Or something like that. If there was something to do with cognitive function order, then I can see how it might cause mental illness. Of course there's no solid theories or evidence or anything like that out there at all. Perhaps improper use of functions/over/underdeveloped functions could lead to such things?


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## Beauty for Ashes (Feb 6, 2013)

bobdaduck said:


> There was some theory on dom-tert loops which I'm not sure I believe in or know about but I remember it mentioning cognitive disorders there. It used the example of an Ni-Ti loop creating schizophrenia as Ti builds up complex systems and then Ni tears them down as being too narrow. Or something like that. If there was something to do with cognitive function order, then I can see how it might cause mental illness. Of course there's no solid theories or evidence or anything like that out there at all. Perhaps improper use of functions/over/underdeveloped functions could lead to such things?


I was actually having a conversation with another member about the Dom/tert loop as applied to an INFP ... and it is TOTALLY how my OCD functions. It made me more certain that I am an INFP but just use other functions to cope with my barely-there Ne... Seriously, all my problems are related to a Fi-Si loop. It's pretty crazy. The fact that I use Ni more than Ne really contributes to it, too, I think.


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## bobdaduck (Apr 24, 2010)

sicaelliott said:


> I was actually having a conversation with another member about the Dom/tert loop as applied to an INFP ... and it is TOTALLY how my OCD functions. It made me more certain that I am an INFP but just use other functions to cope with my barely-there Ne... Seriously, all my problems are related to a Fi-Si loop. It's pretty crazy. The fact that I use Ni more than Ne really contributes to it, too, I think.


You do not "Use" cognitive functions, all cognitive functions are active at the same time.

Also Dom-tert loops is VERY much still a theory, and is generally frowned/disdained/spit upon/ridiculed among most MBTI circles, and I personally don't know how much I'm willing to credit it. I'm mostly just saying that I can see in my mind how improper use of ones cognitive functions could result in certain disorders. Past that, its all just making stuff up and hoping it works.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

sicaelliott said:


> I was actually having a conversation with another member about the Dom/tert loop as applied to an INFP ... and it is TOTALLY how my OCD functions. It made me more certain that I am an INFP but just use other functions to cope with my barely-there Ne... Seriously, all my problems are related to a Fi-Si loop. It's pretty crazy. The fact that I use Ni more than Ne really contributes to it, too, I think.


I don't think too much weight should be put on the dom tert loop theory, which opposes the original theory anyway. I'm really not sure how that even came about because it would need a new theory to support it.


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## Chell (Dec 25, 2009)

@Neverontime - sorry I didn't reply before, but yes; I didn't know Jung had written about that, thanks for pointing that out to me!  I can see what you mean but I'd think that is the opposite of OCD? Because the introverted thinking bases its conclusions on empirical evidence, it's unlikely that it would reach wild conclusions leading to OCD-like behaviors (which are very much irrational - although that doesn't necessarily mean _ego-dystonic_, from what I got from other posts.)
If anything, I'd think this introverted thinking he puts is more likely to develop OCPD-like behavior - in which the obsessive/compulsive behavior feels justified to the person, but often not to others, and they actively indulge in it.
Then again, Jung's descriptions of introverted thinking often confound me, so I'm afraid this could be very wrong.

@Neverontime and @bobdaduck, this is totally diverging from the topic, but may I ask for references on the criticism of dom-tert loops? Or just some insight on why it would contradict MBTI really? It makes sense to me but I can't find much discussion on the contrary.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Chell said:


> @Neverontime - sorry I didn't reply before, but yes; I didn't know Jung had written about that, thanks for pointing that out to me!  I can see what you mean but I'd think that is the opposite of OCD? Because the introverted thinking bases its conclusions on empirical evidence, it's unlikely that it would reach wild conclusions leading to OCD-like behaviors (which are very much irrational - although that doesn't necessarily mean _ego-dystonic_, from what I got from other posts.)
> If anything, I'd think this introverted thinking he puts is more likely to develop OCPD-like behavior - in which the obsessive/compulsive behavior feels justified to the person, but often not to others, and they actively indulge in it.
> Then again, Jung's descriptions of introverted thinking often confound me, so I'm afraid this could be very wrong.


Ti doms in a neurotic state would be operating on their inferior Fe. I don't know much about ocd, I only remembered that Jung said that in the Ti doms description. 



> @Neverontime and @bobdaduck, this is totally diverging from the topic, but may I ask for references on the criticism of dom-tert loops? Or just some insight on why it would contradict MBTI really? It makes sense to me but I can't find much discussion on the contrary.


The original theory is based on consciousness and the unconscious. The dominant function representing consciousness alongside the partly conscious auxiliary. The tertiary and inferior representing the unconscious. The unconscious 'personality' has its own energy and in a healthy person there's a constant influx of unconscious contents into consciousness. This is what creates the balance. 
When the dominant function is relied on too much and the unconscious functions are completely suppressed, the psyche becomes unbalanced. The energy from the unconscious builds up until it forces its way into consciousness, as opposition to consciousness rather than compensation for it. This is what Jung believed led to neurosis. 

A dom-tert loop would be a conscious-unconscious loop which would be balanced, according to the original theory.


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## Chell (Dec 25, 2009)

Neverontime said:


> Ti doms in a neurotic state would be operating on their inferior Fe. I don't know much about ocd, I only remembered that Jung said that in the Ti doms description.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see! 
Well, for a summary, OCPD is basically (what is recognized as) OCD, except usually milder and the person is in agreement with it - as in, believes it is purposeful - as opposed to OCD (OCD people think of their symptoms as "crazy" and don't understand why they do what they do).
Oh... yes. I see what you mean but if I said I "get" it I'd be lying... Come to think of it, I've never done much reading into the relation between unconscious and conscious and cognitive functions. I mean, this isn't related to the J/P I/E axis in any way, so I may have to go deeper before I can say I understand. But thanks really!


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Chell said:


> I see!
> Well, for a summary, OCPD is basically (what is recognized as) OCD, except usually milder and the person is in agreement with it - as in, believes it is purposeful - as opposed to OCD (OCD people think of their symptoms as "crazy" and don't understand why they do what they do).
> Oh... yes. I see what you mean but if I said I "get" it I'd be lying... Come to think of it, I've never done much reading into the relation between unconscious and conscious and cognitive functions. I mean, this isn't related to the J/P I/E axis in any way, so I may have to go deeper before I can say I understand. But thanks really!


I forgot to mention, originally the tertiary function was the opposite attitude to the dominant because if consciousness was introverted then the unconscious was extraverted. It was changed much later by someone other than Jung or Myers, I don't yet know why.


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## Naama (Dec 5, 2010)

My best friend happens to also be INFP with ocd(original diagnosis was schizophrenic ocd, but i really dont think the schizophrenia part is very true, however it came with a a stronger twist of psychosis than ocd generally does).

Basically he has fears of bad things happening to people if he doesent do some routine or repeat action that he was doing while the thought occurred. I am pretty positive that it is because his mom suffers from MS and has been in wheel chair since my friend was very small. Because my friend always knew that his mom was ill, but lived in a la-la-land like good INFP kid does and failed to process the situation properly, instead repressing Te and Si more than normally, his ocd came out the way it did(twisted perception of what is colored by unconscious biases and basically Te giving in to this perception, instead of analyzing it objectively).

Luckily he has strong meds to keep him in pretty good shape nowadays, but they do hinder his thinking and concentration quite a bit.

OCD is correlated to ITJ types mostly, but it does happen with other types. I think because classic cases of OCD correlate to Te so much, inferior Te might develop ocd with more the way my friend did, instead of things like obsessive cleaning or hand washing, but dunno.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Well, there are TONS of possible manifestations of OCD - it can deal with absolutely anything, probably in the realm of any function (like sensation for the obvious sensation compulsions, or thinking, for intrusive thoughts, or feeling, based on conflicts of desire that come out of nowhere, or probably a wild and varied mix of functions). This wouldn't change the face of the disorder at all, regardless.


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