# Getting Rejected--How do you feel when it happens to you?



## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

I recently had a rather heated discussion with someone regarding whether or not someone who is being rejected by a member of, well, was going to say the opposite sex, however, I suppose it's more appropriate to say someone you wish to date. As a professor whom some women do not find completely hideous, and one who welcomes his students (Male/Female/Other) to come and spend time in my office even just to sit around and talk if they like, I've faced the unfortunate necessity of turning some women down who've never before been turned down. A few of them have even been women with whom I had extensive contact beforehand and even had taken classes with them before I was "qualified" to teach them. Nevertheless, they were all my students when they asked me, and so I had to turn them down, as it's university policy (though professors are allowed to teach their spouses and children).

What brought up the argument was I insisted when I turned these women down, I did the right thing by letting them down gently as I could using the situation as a teaching opportunity, explaining the reasons any romantic relationship while they were my student would be indecorous, then building them back up (e.g. "Were I not your teacher and we'd met ABC as XYZ, you'd have to beat me off with a stick" or something similar). Even when doing my best, there were still some (usually the ones I knew had likely never been turned down before) who turned deep red from embarrassment, some even cried. None of them ever came to my office "just to chat" with the groups of us in there again, at least not while they were still my student. It was my contention in this discussion that when rejecting someone who has made such a proposal, if one is abrupt, one causes even _more_ pain. I know whenever I've been turned down, it certainly hurts! They contended under no circumstances could someone be hurt by this rejection (even compared college students and grad students to children). If it _*didn't*_ hurt, if there were no pain in getting rejected, men would simply go around asking every woman everywhere, every minute to go have sex until they were successful, and no woman anywhere would hesitate to ask a man out. As neither of those is the case, it seemed blatantly obvious to me I was not the only one who felt hurt when rejected--it seemed to me all but psychopaths, sociopaths and INTxs would be hurt. Am I really the only person who gets hurt when rejected? Am I really that big of an exception?

Well, it turned out the person with whom I was having this discussion also taught _some_ classes, ones where grades were not given out, and some classes where they were paid by their students (that is, their students were a direct means of income). As their picture displayed a person who was not at all ugly (IMO of course), I knew there had to be the occasional person hitting on them, so I asked them how _they_ handled things. They told me, effectually, rejecting students was easy for them. That they, in effect, didn't believe rejecting someone hurts them at all (at the same time claiming they'd never been turned down), and went even further to say *I* was arrogant for believing the women I'd rejected were hurt. Obviously, as a guy with a Ph.D. in Behaviorlal Analysis, along with having a Masters in Psych. (non-clinical), I felt I was qualified to tell when someone right in front me, in a conversation with me, was hurt. For those I rejected whose eyes welled up with tears or who had tears running down their face during the rejection, I'd say it all but the most interpersonally moronic (read: INTx), could figure out these women were both hurt and embarrassed. 

The person with whom I was having this discussion even contended when a child would hit on them (innocent crushes, puppy love), one should crush them. I honestly was stunned. This was a person claiming to be an ENFP. An ENFP being completely harsh to a child who "likes them"/is crushing on them? An ENFP being so callous towards the emotions of others? Thinking people who are being rejected aren't hurt? It didn't, not any of it, make any sense, at least to me--but then I am an ENFJ. Though I'm far from a doormat, I still always do my best to at the very least be considerate.
So, I thought I'd simply ask everyone else:

If you've been rejected by someone, were you hurt?

Do you think teachers should be harsh in their rejection of any students who make it known they find them attractive?

Should adults be harsh with children who have innocent crushes on them when those children make the crushes known?

Or should adults and especially teachers be, if at all possible (ideally of course), understanding and considerate of the child's or the student's feelings? (Yes, the answers seem obvious to me, but again, I'm an ENFJ, and not everyone thinks like me... just trying to get an idea how much the same/differently I think from others.

Should they do their best to find a way to not hurt the feelings of the "rejectee" (assuming, of course, you believe getting rejected by someone hurts--I know it's hurt me in the past and would even say in some cases it downright scarred me)?

Guessing by both the body language of some of the students I rejected, the tears welling up in their eyes, or pouring down their faces, along with using the empathy of the ENFJ, the rejection hurt them, even when doing my best to cushion the blow. What do your experiences tell you? I should note my students are, on the average, anywhere from 17-40 y.o. in Bachelors level courses, generally 21 to 50 in Masters level courses, and though I've limited experienced teaching Doctoral level courses, the students in those 2 classes ranged from (and I'm guessing--if you need me to refer back to the course records, I will) ~25 to 60. 

Another small (okay, reasonably long) addendum (please forgive my loquaciousness), I do not believe it's wrong for teachers to "date" people who *were* their students when both are consenting adults, and the vast majority of the contact between the two parties occurred outside of the classroom (that is, the emotions which developed were not based mainly on the teacher/student relationship), nor do I believe it's wrong for a teacher to become close personal friends with his students, romantically or otherwise if there is no grade being assigned, and no favor is shown by the teacher towards the respective student during class (e.g. a Sensei teaching his Karate-Ka while in the dojo and doing so without bias, or, perhaps, a dance instructor in his studio). To be 100% clear, I do not, nor have I ever dated or slept with any of my college students, despite the temptation, but nor do I think what happens between two consenting adults _after_ the two will no longer be in a teacher-student relationship is any of my business. Which side of the fence does everyone else sit on? In addition, if you think your temperament sub-type has an effect upon your opinion, by all means, let me know what that is and why. Thank you everyone.

P.S. again I apologize for the length, but I wanted to make sure the details were fully laid out.


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## TheBly (Dec 11, 2010)

Forgive me for only reading like, half of that...

But for me, rejection only hurts because the said person then has to assume that:

a) I am not good enough
b) They are better than me
c) I was wrong in thinking it would work

And it's hard to have these three things rambling in your head and to NOT feel bad.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

TL;DR

It depends upon how invested I am in the person. 
If it was a passing fancy I tried flirting with and they didn't respond with interest, so what? I don't have time to "crack the code" of some people. I don't care how shy they are or how much they truly dislike my face.
If there was a lot of time invested, I can just say I wouldn't be happy.


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

Hm..
The amount of pain or discomfort rejection would cause me is directly proportional to the amount of time and energy invested.

I can't say that I've ever been rejected. And when I have been sort of 'iamnotsured' it has always turned into a thing later, cause I am one stubborn little fucker.

If it's a fleeting fling of sorts, I wouldn't care one bit.

I always try to let people down easy, probably because I am known for being overly blunt and bold most of the time, and I think it takes balls to approach a bastard like moi. I have things I say, because I am not very good at considerate improv.


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## Noble4 (Feb 1, 2011)

Kr3m1in said:


> I can't say that I've ever been rejected. And when I have been sort of 'iamnotsured' it has always turned into a thing later, cause I am one stubborn little fucker.


Kr3m1in is a g^a^ngster. Straight up. 

I would be like.......yea fine w/e if I got rejected but like @Fizz said, it really depends on the person. Overall, it wouldn't bother me I mean, for a bit maybe........and then after that I would be like "time to move along".


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

Noble4 said:


> Kr3m1in is a g^a^ngster. Straight up.


Gay up.
But other than that, that's pretty much the concensus.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Rejected, me? Hahahaha. Actually, I have been dumped once, by a guy I didn't really like that much, who just wanted a quick lay. But I took it pretty well and moved on. Other than that, I've been rejected by a guy who turned out to be taken (who eventually took up my offer later) which was just embarrassing.

Perhaps the most prominent memory of rejection was the 8th grade dance... -sigh- I was nuts about this guy, like stalking his house and writing poetry, and he asked me to the dance only to get distracted by some girl from his class who he ran off with 10 minutes into the dance. I think I handled it pretty well at the time, but afterward I was so confused by what had happened that I continued stalking him for the rest of the year and had this uber embarrassing angst fest over this guy.

Summary: I handle rejection pretty well, but the emotions that occasionally stem from this not so much. I think confusion would be a better word for it than pain. It hurts me more to realize that I have to split it off (because I hate giving up on people) than it does for people to reject me. I'm usually on the socially dominant end of a relationship, which leaves me with flocks of emotional boys and men whining at me when I make that decision to end it. I don't think they realize that what I really feel when I break up with someone is usually anger and frustration at their failures which caused me to end it, and frustration in general with the wasted effort.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

TheBly said:


> Forgive me for only reading like, half of that...
> 
> But for me, rejection only hurts because the said person then has to assume that:
> 
> ...


You're completely forgiven. The last paragraph was pretty much me apologizing for the length of the post. I just wanted to be certain to be clear, give all the circumstances.

And obviously you're right regarding the reasons you feel bad (hurt="feel badly" in my book). Has anyone ever let you down gently enough or in a way that it didn't hurt? I can think of times, rare though they may be, a woman took the time to give me feedback and tell me why I was being turned down. It made all the difference in the world.

And again, sorry for the length.:wink: I just can't help my wordy ENFJ style :laughing:


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## The13thGuest (May 3, 2011)

I have never asked anyone out and been rejected.

However, I have been rejected 3 times mid relationship. 

One didn't really reject me, he just said it was awkward that we were dating and we should just stop (we are close friends), then went on to say he has a preference to other men anyways.

The other one happened because of my own stupidity. I was extremely angry at myself and the man who rejected me, I let the hatred fester and bubble up inside me until I had a melt down about 3 months after the rejection.

The third rejection I don't even want to talk about. I think I am taking it quite well, though I still find myself thinking of the rejector and the rejection. Occasionally I get frustrated over it and take it out on other people. But hey, they can deal with me or walk away, so I feel no guilt for taking it out on others.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

hziegel said:


> Rejected, me? Hahahaha. Actually, I have been dumped once, by a guy I didn't really like that much, who just wanted a quick lay. But I took it pretty well and moved on. Other than that, I've been rejected by a guy who turned out to be taken (who eventually took up my offer later) which was just embarrassing.


Now, had either of the two guys taken the time to, as I tried to put it, reject you gently while building you up, would it have been less, uh, confusing? Embarrassing? I mean, most of the students I've had to say no to took it very well, but I go out of my way to let them know it's because they're my students. When some were no longer students of mine, they came back into the group and though nothing ever came out of them, it seemed to me to be the best possible ending. I think if I'd been abrupt and harsh, I'd have lost them as dedicated students.



hziegel said:


> Perhaps the most prominent memory of rejection was the 8th grade dance... -sigh- I was nuts about this guy, like stalking his house and writing poetry, and he asked me to the dance only to get distracted by some girl from his class who he ran off with 10 minutes into the dance. I think I handled it pretty well at the time, but afterward I was so confused by what had happened that I continued stalking him for the rest of the year and had this uber embarrassing angst fest over this guy.


Nah! I wouldn't be embarrassed about having an angst fest in 8th grade. I think we all had them at some point in 6th-9th grade somewhere. I certainly did. I had a huge crush on the girl who sat in front of me in math in 7th and 8th grade. After 8th grade her family moved to FL while I was stuck in NY. Epilogue: 25 years after we'd last seen each other, we got back in touch due to classmates.com.



hziegel said:


> Summary: I handle rejection pretty well, but the emotions that occasionally stem from this not so much. I think confusion would be a better word for it than pain. It hurts me more to realize that I have to split it off (because I hate giving up on people) than it does for people to reject me. I'm usually on the socially dominant end of a relationship, which leaves me with flocks of emotional boys and men whining at me when I make that decision to end it. I don't think they realize that what I really feel when I break up with someone is usually anger and frustration at their failures which caused me to end it, and frustration in general with the wasted effort.


Well, heck, I think it hurts everyone in the world more at the end of a relationship, but that doesn't mean getting rejected in the beginning feels good, does it?nor does it mean getting rejected is a neutral feeling. When I'm rejected out of hand I usually end up hurting for the first 10-20 minutes afterwards, but a lot of it does have to do with just how the person doing the rejecting words things.

FWIW ENFPs and ENFJs handle the end of relationships very differently in my experience. If an ENFJ leaves the lines of communication open, then they still want something and will end up doing things which could be called stalking today (like, driving by someone's house whenever you're in the area--something I think most social/socially adept people have done to someone at some point in their life, INTJs aside, but then, I *did* say it only happened to socially adept people.:wink:


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Never been rejected. Just dumped. It sucked, but more because he was an asshole about it. More through not being clear than through being harsh...
I don't like rejecting people myself, but I favour firm over nice, since trying to be nice bit me in the ass too many times, by people who think "No, but that doesn't mean you're a horrible person" (in essence) means "I'll totally change my mind if you stalk me." I find it more important to draw a clear boundary (particularly if it were student/teacher) than coddle someone's feelings - sometimes it is not possible to do both, though generally speaking I prefer to be as nice as I can be, whilst still being _clear_.

If I were a teacher rejecting a student though...I kind of think they should know better then to go after a prof. I'm not saying I'd be _mean_, but I definitely wouldn't go on about how hot/nice/lovely they were and that maybe if we weren't in this professional relationship we'd get it on etc. because to me I find that a little much and not entirely professional. At least_ I _would be uncomfortable with it - in any situation, but doubly so in a professional one. Probably I'd just say "I could lose my job" and if they don't respect that, they're a jerk.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Kr3m1in said:


> Hm..
> The amount of pain or discomfort rejection would cause me is directly proportional to the amount of time and energy invested.


I thought I described the situation pretty well, but as quickly as possible, these are women who've spent 3 or 4 days a week in my office with me and another 10 to 15 people just talking (since I teach Human Behavior, that's generally the topic of discussion). I usually know when "an offer" is coming up because the woman will start spending 5 days a week in my office, then trying to stay later than anyone else. That being the case, I think it's fair to say the women in question believe they have a lot of time invested, especially the women who knew me when we were students together, before I was a Prof.. 



Kr3m1in said:


> I can't say that I've ever been rejected. And when I have been sort of 'iamnotsured' it has always turned into a thing later, cause I am one stubborn little fucker.


Most of the women in question I can pretty well guess had never been rejected either. Now, after they're no longer my students, and there's no longer a teacher/student relationship, I welcome the chance to get to know one another outside the classroom environment. I don't see anything wrong with it. The person with whom I was speaking found this reprehensible, but C'est la vie.



Kr3m1in said:


> I always try to let people down easy, probably because I am known for being overly blunt and bold most of the time, and I think it takes balls to approach a bastard like moi. I have things I say, because I am not very good at considerate improv.


And I find that beyond commendable. I can't (or don't even want to try to) understand the thought process of people who believe being harsh and abrupt to a child who has an innocent crush is the right way to handle things (thinking that child won't be hurt). Words do come easily to me, so I don't rehearse anything (esp. since it seems every situation is different anyway), but like you I do my best to let them down gently, and still try to build them back up as much as possible.


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

@Chief you explained your situation pretty well, but I am not in it, so it's hard to gauge the amount of time and energy invested and furthermore, the kind of time and energy that is being invested. There are people I enjoy being around, there are people I can be around for 8 hours at a time, but I don't necessarily want to make them mine.

So when I talk about rejection, I can only tell you about moi and related experiences, due to the fact that it is all I know.

It isn't that words don't come easy to me. I am a linguist, I am good with language and speeches and precision and such, but it's hard for me to be as soft as necessary without knowing in advance what I am going to say. I have a pretty non-feely interaction style, especially when I am not romantically interested in a given person, and therefore feel the need to consciously insert considerate expressions, so as not to make people that have put themselves out there feel as though I am axing them out.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

lirulin said:


> Never been rejected. Just dumped. It sucked, but more because he was an asshole about it. More through not being clear than through being harsh...
> I don't like rejecting people myself, but I favour firm over nice, since trying to be nice bit me in the ass too many times, by people who think "No, but that doesn't mean you're a horrible person" (in essence) means "I'll totally change my mind if you stalk me." I find it more important to draw a clear boundary (particularly if it were student/teacher) than coddle someone's feelings - sometimes it is not possible to do both, though generally speaking I prefer to be as nice as I can be, whilst still being _clear_.


Obviously. Girls don't start tearing up when you're going on and on about how beautiful they are, and if you did, and then told them to go to hell, you'd be even a bigger ass. In addition, you yourself said you've never been turned down, so more than likely you really don't know what it feels like to be turned down. I do (though it's been awhile, but that's because I just stopped asking, not because of some incredible success rate). Putting yourself out there takes guts, and I reward those guts by not being harsh and abrupt. 



lirulin said:


> If I were a teacher rejecting a student though...I kind of think they should know better then to go after a prof.


I think there's a lot of difference between a Prof. that teaches Math or Science, even History compared to one who teaches Behavioral Analysis and one particularly popular class on relationships. In any case, I think you'd be surprised how many girls think they can get a better grade by, well, you get the idea. Those are very easy for me to turn down. It's the ones who are 25-40 who are attractive and have spent, geez... I dunno, 100? Hours in my office talking about whatever with everyone who tend to get the crushes (and the guys who come spend time in the office almost always end up with a GF out of it). It's certainly not because I'm some dashingly tall, dark, and handsome guy (I'm none of the three :laughing. In any case, before I started teaching, my INTJ friend told me "no, women never come and do that stuff... that only happens in the movies." I believed him, believed much as you did.... you think they'd know better. Well, most of them do, but not all, and there are really different problems when you're dealing with someone who seeks out your classes over and over again (UGH!)



lirulin said:


> I'm not saying I'd be _mean_, but I definitely wouldn't go on about how hot/nice/lovely they were and that maybe if we weren't in this professional relationship we'd get it on etc. because to me I find that a little much and not entirely professional. At least_ I _would be uncomfortable with it - in any situation, but doubly so in a professional one. Probably I'd just say "I could lose my job" and if they don't respect that, they're a jerk.


I play "the long game" romantically, so the bulk of my relationships start off with friendships or getting to know someone outside of a dating relationship and then falling into one. I don't know many people my age who've had as many LTRs as I have. I didn't really want to go into specifics, but I generally talk about the propriety of age (when applicable), that I'm marriage minded, looking to have kids right away, etc... That's usually enough to scare off the younger ones. The older ones, the ones taking Ph.D. and Masters courses I teach, well, those are the ones I really *would* like to get to know once the student-teacher relationship is over. If I don't want to, I still do my best to let them down gently and do my best to pick them back up, but I'm an ENFJ. I will always try to make people feel as comfortable as possible in any situation, and I'm always "the teacher" in some aspect of any relationship..


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## Konan (Apr 20, 2011)

Very horrible...


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## Katya00 (Apr 25, 2011)

I haven't really had much experience with being rejected. Most of the time if I am "rejected" it is because I come on too strong and they are intimidated, and come around later. I honestly can't think of any situation where this did not happen. It's hurtful or even annoying at first (especially since they just come back around later, sometimes when I'm already with someone else) but I tend to stay in contact and stay friends with them. I'm not the type to hold a grudge...plus I suspect I may suffer from a normal amount of shame. 

However, I have also never asked a professor out. I know the rules behind that and it's considered unprofessional. If I really liked someone I'd wait until I was no longer his student, but that has yet to happen. Maybe I should just ask one out to see what happens...it will be like an experiment


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Failure is always an option, in about anything you do.

You'd be stupid to not consider the downside when approaching about anything.

For me personally, it'd likely be a direct smack down, being all nice and gentle sends false hope / signs that may be misinterpreted.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Chief said:


> Obviously. Girls don't start tearing up when you're going on and on about how beautiful they are, and if you did, and then told them to go to hell, you'd be even a bigger ass.


Well yeah. Even if you do that afterwards, it can give people the wrong idea. 'No, I don't hate you' can give people the wrong idea. Some people are very good at selective attention.



Chief said:


> In addition, you yourself said you've never been turned down, so more than likely you really don't know what it feels like to be turned down. I do (though it's been awhile, but that's because I just stopped asking, not because of some incredible success rate). Putting yourself out there takes guts, and I reward those guts by not being harsh and abrupt.


Well sure I haven't experienced it, but I can imagine from descriptions and similar situations I did deal with to get some idea. I do know it sucks. I might well be scared of it if I were prone enough to crushes to get in a position to ask them: mainly I haven't been rejected because I'm lazy and don't notice prospects until they are shoved in my face so am rarely the initiator - but partly because I'm not _stupid_ enough to ask someone who legally, morally, professionally,_ has_ to say no. I respect taking a risk in the normal course of social interaction stuff; I don't respect foolishness. Even then, I would not be trying to be harsh in turning them down - abrupt maybe.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

I think with relationships, I know what I want most of the time. So if I want someone and I get rejected, I know that there are other fish in the sea. What really trips me up is rejection in things I think of as more important in my life - job interviews, potential friendships, colleges, etc. Those ones really hit home for me. I know that love is everywhere, and finding love is just a matter of keeping yourself open to it. However, finding a job right now takes a bit more effort than keeping myself open. xP It's more a matter of personal insecurities.

I guess it really matters where you derive your insecurities from. I'm paranoid about people in general, but I'm more insecure about the physical world and how I'm a part of that. So love... I don't think I've ever felt very insecure about it.


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

@hziegel I don't know if love is quite so easy. A job is generally a set of skills and things you know that is explicitly outlined, love is a lot more tricky than that. You can be open all you want , but there is so much that ends up going into it, that being open alone will never be good enough. Maybe for a fling, but not love.

Most of the fish in the sea kind of don't seem to cut it either. Especially when you got one on your hook and you're like 'damn, what is this thing?'


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

hziegel said:


> It does fascinate me that this sounds so much like a porno fantasy in which the school girl is *so horny* she just can't wait. xD But after hanging around the student lounge enough, I'm pretty sure this happens all the time.


As I think I said, my INXJ friend for over 20 years and math prof. told me "it never happens." Heck, I was just about stunned into silence (very rare for me) the first time it happened to me. It does happen all the time, however, but has nothing to do with "school girl"s being "*so horny*). The very hardest people for me to turn down are the attractive women more my age who are working on Ph.D's themselves. One would be really stretching the definition of "school girl" were you to add these women into that definition. You know, thinking back on things, even when I was getting my BACHELORS! (and that was very nearly 30 years ago), I remember having a crush on one chick who kept shooting me down, though we continued to be friends. Eventually we caught her (quite accidentally) in her dorm room with one of her professors. It turned out, after we all talked about it, she just wasn't interested in college age kids. She was FAR more interested in dating one of her professors, so that's who she went after. Obviously she's not the only female who thought/thinks this way.


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## Katya00 (Apr 25, 2011)

@Chief 

Ah I didn't realize you were an ENFJ. I had assumed you were an ENTP like myself...we are know for being flirty haha. I actually tend to adore ENFJ males and it seems like it is mutual. They are the few people in the world I can be my complete caustic sarcastic self with, and they just eat it up. They love it, the feisty side of me. They don't seem to get their feelings hurt either. Plus they have this intense confidence and don't really give up if they are interested. Plus I'm not a follower...maybe they like that? It is intriguing? Who knows. All I know is that romantically that was the best "clicking" I'd ever had. 

ENFJ females and I...uh that's another story. I haven't known many so perhaps it isn't fair to generalize, but the one I know best despises me. And she married my brother. Lucky me!


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

@TheSeer91 Whereas I can absolutely relate to how hurtful it can be to get rejected, and being stood up *is*, for all intents and purposes, no different from them rejecting you flat out. It's the simple nastiest way for one person to reject another. I haven't gone somewhere expecting a woman to be somewhere because I always confirm before I go anywhere (and I never meet anyone anywhere. Either I'll pick them up, they can pick me up. If she's insistent on meeting away from her home, I will push and shove to find out why. If there is no good reason, you can take it as her saying "I won't be there"). It's horrible someone did this to you. 

Do NOT, however, let this one person's actions prevent you from the immense satisfaction which can come from finding a mate. You might want to think about learning to play "the long game," that is, unless you're one of those guys who want to stick their junk in any and every woman's trunk. Try just starting off being friends with a woman, and under no circumstances allow them to jump to sex until you're certain this is someone with whom you would consider having a family (not saying you should know you want to marry her that moment, but at least be certain there's significant potential). Our society tends to make both a)women think every man is out for sex with every woman at all times and b)men think other men who are NOT out for sex with every woman at all times are somehow defective (as opposed to intelligent, honourable, not wanting to get someone pregnant, not enjoying sex with a condom, preferring only to have sex when it means something, being more interested in who a woman is as a person than who she is as a "lay"). I wish you the best in the future my friend.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

ACK! Look what you made me do Katya!! How DAST you!?!:wink:



Katya00 said:


> @Chief
> 
> Ah I didn't realize you were an ENFJ. I had assumed you were an ENTP like myself...we are know for being flirty haha.


Well, ENFJ with very strong T tendencies (more just than merciful, more cool-headed than warm-hearted, more unbiased than compassionate, though in truth I'm VERY compassionate. It's just being "unbiased" is more important to me than compassion, and often being unbiased overrides compassion, especially when dealing with murderers, rapists, and the like... being compassionate or merciful doesn't mean, IMO, being that way only when it's easy. It means always being that way. IMO, if one is merciful or compassionate with murderers and rapists, one is being merciLESS to and LACKING compassion for the victim and/or the victim's family. Anyway, that whole line of questioning which determines F or T is what makes me have such strong T tendencies. There is no letter for being fair AND compassionate. Oh well).

Anyway, I don't think of it as being "flirty" (though I do enjoy flirting). I think of it as being friendly and having fun!!




Katya00 said:


> I actually tend to adore ENFJ males and it seems like it is mutual. They are the few people in the world I can be my complete caustic sarcastic self with, and they just eat it up. They love it, the feisty side of me.


I've been really close to a few ENFPs recently, but have never known a female ENTP, other than a student here or there. Much like the ENFJ, ENTPs seem to be even more rare creatures than is usually stated. I think it's simply the Idealist (NF) with a J anywhere is a rare creature. So too are Utilitarians (NT) with a P anywhere. Hopefully you see the logic of what I'm driving at there. I have no idea how true it is, but it makes sense to me.

RE: Sarcasm, I believe when you encounter ENxxs you're encountering the part of the population which thrives upon sarcasm. It's FUNNY to us. ENFJs will eat it up and not get hurt because, as Keirsey says, our empathy allows us to, in effect, feel exactly what you're feeling, so we have a leg up on others when it comes to sarcasm. We know even before the person says something whether they mean it as a sardonicism, or mean something to be sarcastic just to have fun. 



Katya00 said:


> They don't seem to get their feelings hurt either. Plus they have this intense confidence and don't really give up if they are interested. Plus I'm not a follower...maybe they like that? It is intriguing? Who knows. All I know is that romantically that was the best "clicking" I'd ever had.


I can assure you our feelings do get hurt, even very hurt when there's inherent disharmony between the people in any given room, and nobody will let us do anything about it to disarm the hostile emotions. Perhaps it's our inherent "extraordinary" tolerance of others which makes it hard to hurt our feelings. Another possibility is we just don't let you know if we're hurt. Instead we'll try to lead things towards a solution, and will do so in a very non-threatening way. Also, when people don't give us a chance to fix things, to repair a relationship, we hurt more than anything. We are, after all, driven by conclusions/schedules, having things settled! If someone won't let us repair a relationship, we may be hurt, in fact, so much so we'd rather cut ties and be done with it than spend even another day speaking with that person. As you are, at least partially, driven by logic, you are probably willing to give the ENFJ the chance he needs to make things better in his mind.

I DO find it interesting you've found such a connection with ENFJ males (as probably evidenced by the diatribe above L0L). Have you noticed there are a ton of NON-ENFJ males who really resent ENFJ males for our confidence and for the ease with which we connect with others? I'd be very interested in hearing why you didn't get along with the female ENFJ and wonder if it has anything to do with why male NON-ENFJs tend to either love them or hate them. Ya know, and I absolutely do NOT mean this in a conceited fashion, but, as the Prof. who taught me all about the Jungian/Socratic/Aristotelian archetypes and sub types put it, "ENFJs are 'the shit' in relationships. They're what everyone is looking for." As I'm a not a pure ENFJ, lots of me wishes I were more so.



Katya00 said:


> ENFJ females and I...uh that's another story. I haven't known many so perhaps it isn't fair to generalize, but the one I know best despises me. And she married my brother. Lucky me!


DOH!!! Ouch! I'm so sorry. It was a female ENFJ who taught me all about relationships and what I'm allowed to expect and taught me to definitely never, ever settle for less. To put kind of an exclamation mark on this entire thread, we only met because she was taking the same martial art I'd been studying for 10 years at that point. I was in process of getting my 2nd degree black and she was a student of mine for one class, after which we talked and other people who witnessed it said the air had become so electric there were damn near sparks in the air between the two of us. She then paid for a "private lesson" from me (it's NOT like it sounds... err... at least it wasn't intended to be!!! If anything, she gave ME private lessons as she was 27, and I 24, ROFLMAO!). Anyway, we tried like heck NOT to date, NOT to take it any further, but after awhile it was hopeless. She'd made me promise not to take things outside of friendship, but then she ended up literally inching her body closer and closer until it was next to mine and there was a wall on my other side. I had nowhere to go, so I laid on my side (very uncomfortable, but I'd given her my word). She said "you look uncomfortable." I looked at her and kind of laughed and said something like "uh, yeah, you're taking up most of the bed and if I lay down, our bodies will be touching."
"So?" she said
"Well, if our bodies start touching that much, I simply cannot promise you I won't start cuddling with you."
She laughed as she exclaimed "what do you think I've been trying to get you to do!!??!!"
Meanwhile I'm thinking, it would have been a lot easier if she'd just told me it was okay to cuddle. I'd been wanting to cuddle with her since the first day I met her (note: not "have sex." Cuddle!)
She all but forced me into kissing her too--another promise she made me break. UGH! I'm so powerless when it comes to women like her.

I'm absolutely sorry if this was TMI. It was very funny to me.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

jbking said:


> I'd be more likely to want to suggest that the student or child have someone to go and discuss the rejection as a better strategy than trying to discuss the person that has hurt them. There may be venting or questions but the idea here is to be asking an ally rather than someone that you may feel just stabbed you in the back.
> 
> A key from my view is to not be fake. If one is being overly nice or insincere then that may cause more problems than anything else. all sappy which I can be though I tend to hide that side of myself.


My whole point is, if one takes the proper approach, the person being rejected will not feel like they've been stabbed in the back. I've had experiences both with children who've gotten crushes on me, through to younger teenagers (none of the aforementioned were students), on up. With the child, I take it as a teaching opportunity and explain why the age difference makes it impossible, and how they will be a real "heart-breaker" when they're old enough, and tell them how amazing I think they are, how it took guts for them to tell me of their crush, but then explain to them why a child/adult relationship is both illegal and not in any conceivable form "a good idea." I give them a hug, a kiss on the forehead, then of course tell their parents what just happened. I don't know if there's any way you can save that child from hurting, but taking any approach other than one of understanding and kindness is plainly wrong, IMO. INTJs, in general (and I'm yet to meet the exception), are generally pretty inept socially, so I can understand why doing such a thing would be difficult for you--why YOU wouldn't ever choose to take the approach I did, anymore than I would choose to study physics (or math, or anything which didn't involve human to human interaction) over Human Behavior.

I can see why YOU would think being "overly nice" would cause problems. It's not in you to believe one person should spend significant time taking care of another. INTJs, in general, have the opinion "everyone should just take care of themselves." That is pretty much the polar opposite of how ENFJs think.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

Chief said:


> (1) If you've been rejected by someone, were you hurt?
> 
> (2) Do you think teachers should be harsh in their rejection of any students who make it known they find them attractive?
> 
> ...


 (1) Sometimes I choose to feel some hurt about it, yes. Other times, I was take-it-or-leave-it, not attached to an outcome, and it was easier.

(2) You can argue either way on this. I think sometimes if you don't inject some firmness, the person who hopes to date you will cling to hope or to fantasy, and in an academic environment, this could lead to behavior that others could misinterpret. That doesn't help either party. My preference is to reject softly and gently at first, and get progressively more direct and firm.

(3) I don't believe in shoulds. I think it helps to make it clear that the person has no chance with you but I prefer to be kind about it. Whether I'm kind for the full duration of the interaction depends on whether they take the hint and accept the no initially.

[My problem is rather that I don't like to flat-out ignore people, which is pretty standard behavior to communicate a rejection. I have trouble not acknowledging people in my universe and have to make a conscious effort to handle things that way, rather than through a genuine verbalization.]

(4) I believe in considerate communication, but again, some people will latch onto any perceived sign that something is a possibility. It's not necessarily skillful to knowingly allow for that.

(5) Again, it all depends on whether you grok the chance that the "rejectee" will not accept a kind, considerate rejection. If they see their desired outcome as possible, they may continue working towards it, or may neglect to notice all the variety of awesome potential dates in front of them. 

Which is kinder: 
a) to reject a person with a lot of gentleness - and have them miss out on college dating because they continue pining for you, holding themselves aside emotionally to pursue something with you once they are no longer your student, or
b) to reject a person with firmness, perhaps causing some emotional pain, but the approach also supports them in moving on and experiencing the wonders of college dating sooner?

(6) My experiences tell me that I don't like to trigger pain in other people, but sometimes a direct answer is better in the long run. I do my best to be nice about it, but I also try to think about what is going to be the most skillful choice. Sometimes it is more skillful to be firm, knowing it will lead to some pain, and knowing that this pain will also help that person shift perspective or redirect their focus to a more suitable goal.

ETA: I also think men rejecting women can be easier than women rejecting men, maybe. Women are more likely to pick up on the cues, to accept the gentle approach. I don't know if you were talking with a female on this issue, but I can see how a female would argue for more boldness. 

The female brain is - generally - more socially plugged in for communication than the male brain, so it's easier to get a female to accept a gentle rejection than it is to get a male to accept a gentle rejection. So it seems to me, speaking generally as I said (aka generalization police don't need to jump at me to offer exceptions and stuff :wink.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Katya00 said:


> I haven't really had much experience with being rejected. Most of the time if I am "rejected" it is because I come on too strong and they are intimidated, and come around later. I honestly can't think of any situation where this did not happen. It's hurtful or even annoying at first (especially since they just come back around later, sometimes when I'm already with someone else) but I tend to stay in contact and stay friends with them. I'm not the type to hold a grudge...plus I suspect I may suffer from a normal amount of shame.


Ahhh... the luxury of being a woman (in the "never been rejected" sense).:laughing:
Heck, you ask an ENFJ out, he'll appreciate your strength. There isn't a woman on earth who I find intimidating (either that, or the Ruskies and Muslims have hidden her away somewhere so they can clone her, thus be certain of intimidating ALL men in the US). 

It would make sense you staying in touch because you're a P. Js want there to be an answer... NOW!! :laughing: Staying friends is, as I put it, playing the long game. It's been my main approach over the last 15 years or so. :happy: If a man really did say no because he was intimidated, it's the perfect approach. For me, unless I see a possible future with a woman, I won't pursue a friendship, at least outside of the classroom. I didn't quite get the whole "shame" thing.



Katya00 said:


> However, I have also never asked a professor out. I know the rules behind that and it's considered unprofessional. If I really liked someone I'd wait until I was no longer his student, but that has yet to happen. Maybe I should just ask one out to see what happens...it will be like an experiment


 I would LOVE to hear the results of that experiment!!! Do it! Do it! Do it! Heck, if I could fly you out here, would you try that experiment on some of the profs who frown upon my discussion group? It would be worth it just to watch them stammer and not know what to do, esp. considering you'd probably be the first female to show any interest in them in decades! :laughing:


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

(1) I've been hurt lots of times,and tended to internalize it and put the blame squarely on myself.But i now realise that it's not the end of the world when someone rejects me,i just move on to the next available option,till i find success.

(2)Teachers have a duty of care to not mislead their students or behave in a manner that is innapropriate to that teacher/student relationship.If a teacher has to be harsh in his/her rejection then so be it.When it comes to dating former students,well there is no obligation of duty of care or ethical responsibility so if both parties are consenting then i don't see any reason why they shouldn't date each other.

(3) I think when it comes to children you need to make your stance very clear,and also need to be as kind as possible.Children can get over rejection very easily,but are also hurt very easily.One needs to be tactful but firm.

(4)You do need to be considerate of their feelings,but you also need to let them know that it isn't appropriate to form such relationships.

(5)You can do your best not to hurt their feelings,but it's going to hurt no matter how tactful and gentle you are.

(6)People are going to be hurt no matter how you try to let them down gently.They may try not to show it,but it will still sting for a while,or they may never get over it.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

TheSeer91 said:


> I've never had a girlfriend or approached a woman for a date but one girl in my last year of high school asked me out and we actually set up a date, she never turned up and we never spoke again, but i've gone from being completely oblivious to relationships to actively making sure attraction does not build so that I don't get disappointed.


 That is your choice but I caution you that you will probably miss out on a lot of the beautiful moments in life, to not allow yourself to feel attraction at all.

I think in your particular circumstance this girl just got scared. Which means she liked you, take it personally but take it as a positive thing, eh?

Attraction can be scary. But the return-on-investment is something I consider absolutely worth the risk. Emotional pain fades with time, and with action to remind yourself that you're not doomed to be alone (like continuing to connect with people in an attraction sort of context). Emotional pain fades, but I would personally feel such a deep regret and visceral curiosity for what I might be missing out on by not opening up to anything in the first place.


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## Katya00 (Apr 25, 2011)

Chief said:


> Ahhh... the luxury of being a woman (in the "never been rejected" sense).:laughing:
> Heck, you ask an ENFJ out, he'll appreciate your strength. There isn't a woman on earth who I find intimidating (either that, or the Ruskies and Muslims have hidden her away somewhere so they can clone her, thus be certain of intimidating ALL men in the US).
> 
> It would make sense you staying in touch because you're a P. Js want there to be an answer... NOW!! :laughing: Staying friends is, as I put it, playing the long game. It's been my main approach over the last 15 years or so. :happy: If a man really did say no because he was intimidated, it's the perfect approach. For me, unless I see a possible future with a woman, I won't pursue a friendship, at least outside of the classroom. I didn't quite get the whole "shame" thing.
> ...


haha you make me laugh. 
I don't actually stay friends to "stay in the game", though it does serve that purpose beautifully. I do it because these guys are really special and interesting to me. I'm also friends with a fair amount of my exes, and we don't hook up again. Maybe it's my extroverted nature? Honestly, NTs in general like to have an "answer". We want to know 'yes' 'no' 'maybe'---"MAYBE? what the the heck does maybe mean?" lol I've become way more patient as I've aged. 

I'm dating an ENFP right now. For him, 'maybe' means 'yes'. Who knows why he can't just say yes. And he is one of the ones who initially rejected me for being too "forward". It intimidated him. We remained friends. I dated other people in the meantime, and he became interested in about 4 months...I was with someone else. It was a case of "sorry man, you had your chance." When I became single again we hooked up. And now we're in a relationship  

The shame thing? I just don't get embarrassed very easily. Liking someone and them not being interested is a no big deal for me. At first it stings, sure, but I get over it quickly. So in that way, I am not ashamed to remain in touch with men who reject me. 

I dated an ENFJ briefly last summer. At first I kinda thought he was a dbag. I hate "lines" and I hate it when men can't just be straight forward with me. He would stare at me when he thought I wasn't looking and then say what I consider "lines" in my general direction to try and make me laugh. I thought he was like a typical meat head guy, smarter than average sure, but I was like "really? trying to get into my pants with that line? REALLY?". Anyway he did get into my pants haha--but I made the first move. And it only happened because we had a conversation one night where he actually stripped away the bullshit and acted like a normal person. We talked about our divorces (yup, divorced here) and his children. His divorce really effed him up...which is probably typical for an NF. He told me he just couldn't let himself go again, to fall for someone. I don't do flings however. I only end up in bed with people I truly care about. 

I wanted to try and make it work but he wasn't interested in something long distance. I tried for awhile and then let it go. We are extremely close friends now. I know he has strong feelings for me. It's obvious. But he won't let himself fall in this situation and that's okay. I am unbelievably grateful he fell out of the sky and into my life. He is the only person I ever felt truly "right" with, we get along so well it's dumb. But eh, whatever happens happens. Maybe someday...? Maybe I'll marry the ENFP I'm with now. I just don't have those answers  

And you thought you gave TMI


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Before I reply, thank you for your considered reply.



sparkles said:


> (1) Sometimes I choose to feel some hurt about it, yes. Other times, I was take-it-or-leave-it, not attached to an outcome, and it was easier.


Even way back when, when I would ask some woman I met in, say, some restaurant for her number, if she rejected me, it still stung. As someone put very succinctly, there must be 1 of 3 assumptions made by someone who rejects you out of hand. Anytime anyone thinks any of those three things about me, well, it stings. I'm not saying it hurts like mad and I'm a sobbing mess. I'm just saying, inside, it stings. Yes, it's easiER, when I have little or no attachment, very much so, but unless you're a sociopath, INTJ, or narcissist (I know, they're synonymous :wink, being rejected hurts, even if it's only for a few seconds.



sparkles said:


> (2) You can argue either way on this. I think sometimes if you don't inject some firmness, the person who hopes to date you will cling to hope or to fantasy, and in an academic environment, this could lead to behavior that others could misinterpret. That doesn't help either party. My preference is to reject softly and gently at first, and get progressively more direct and firm.


I don't really even bring "reject" into the equation. Instead, I explain how I'm not someone they'd really want to date, how I'm too old, how I really want to get married and have kids right away, self-deprecate until they're no longer interested. This works the vast majority of the time. There are, however, those who want the very same things... want to get married, want kids right away, et.al. In cases like those, I explain how inappropriate it is were I to date them or even be (and I'm phrasing it this way for those with sensitive ears--it's NOT how I, or most of the other men I know refer to it) Friends w/Benefits, and that the school has a policy which I follow and support. I also tell them I don't date anyone with whom I'm not friends first, and tell them if they're still interested when they're no longer a student, I'd be more than happy to strike up a friendship (and I mean it). That takes care of a very large percentage of the remainder. IIRC, only one girl kept pushing (at least only one that didn't straight up offer sex for a better grade), and I still believe I was nice about it. Yes, she cried, but I never raised my voice. I told her, in no uncertain terms, I was not going to lose my job. Eventually she went away. Seriously, for the vast majority of them, I don't even need to reject them. They'll pull themselves out of the race if you self-deprecate enough and explain why such things won't work. Hell, I've been thanked afterwards by some of these women for taking the approach I did. Again, for me, it's seeing an opportunity to teach, and as a teacher (both in temperament, [Keirsey's ENFJ: The Teacher] and profession), using that opportunity to help someone grow--to bring the best out of them.



sparkles said:


> (3) I don't believe in shoulds. I think it helps to make it clear that the person has no chance with you but I prefer to be kind about it. Whether I'm kind for the full duration of the interaction depends on whether they take the hint and accept the no initially.
> 
> [My problem is rather that I don't like to flat-out ignore people, which is pretty standard behavior to communicate a rejection. I have trouble not acknowledging people in my universe and have to make a conscious effort to handle things that way, rather than through a genuine verbalization.]


It's not a "problem" to prefer to acknowledge people. It's called having a shred of humanity. And again, why even reject them if you can convince *them* they don't really want to be with _you_? Why choose to make them think they have no chance with you when you can convince them they don't want to be with you in the first place? Only when one is incapable of doing that, IMO, should one ever resort to rejection. Teaching, for me, is about helping my students learn to think for themselves, and learn to love themselves. There's such a big difference between teaching the humanities and teaching physical sciences or business.



sparkles said:


> (4) I believe in considerate communication, but again, some people will latch onto any perceived sign that something is a possibility. It's not necessarily skillful to knowingly allow for that.


It is when you believe there IS a possibility of something in the future, when they're no longer your student. However, I only knowingly allow that thought to continue when it will continue in my mind as well. When it's a 30 year old attractive woman, as a guy who wants kids, I'd be doing myself a disservice if I drove her away for good. Don't get me wrong, however. It doesn't mean I date them while they're my student.



sparkles said:


> Which is kinder:
> a) to reject a person with a lot of gentleness - and have them miss out on college dating because they continue pining for you, holding themselves aside emotionally to pursue something with you once they are no longer your student, or
> b) to reject a person with firmness, perhaps causing some emotional pain, but the approach also supports them in moving on and experiencing the wonders of college dating sooner?


There are too many variables, and I do not agree those are the only two options.



sparkles said:


> (6) My experiences tell me that I don't like to trigger pain in other people, but sometimes a direct answer is better in the long run.


If by direct you mean honest, I agree. If by direct you mean abrupt, I disagree, but will agree to disagree.


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## wonderfert (Aug 17, 2010)

Self-reflective, intensely introverted, and rather self-destructive.


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## jbking (Jun 4, 2010)

I believe there is always the chance of an anomaly that goes against the conventional thinking.



Chief said:


> I can see why YOU would think being "overly nice" would cause problems. It's not in you to believe one person should spend significant time taking care of another. INTJs, in general, have the opinion "everyone should just take care of themselves." That is pretty much the polar opposite of how ENFJs think.


The incongruity is the problem if one is overly nice. Similarly, there are various words and phrases that someone could use that will generally cause most professionals to suddenly pay close attention and be on guard. For example, if someone is having "violent thoughts" or happens to say one of the more harsh swear words such as the one that rhymes with bunt, those can tend to raise an eyebrow or two.


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## TheBly (Dec 11, 2010)

Chief said:


> You're completely forgiven. The last paragraph was pretty much me apologizing for the length of the post. I just wanted to be certain to be clear, give all the circumstances.
> 
> And obviously you're right regarding the reasons you feel bad (hurt="feel badly" in my book). Has anyone ever let you down gently enough or in a way that it didn't hurt? I can think of times, rare though they may be, a woman took the time to give me feedback and tell me why I was being turned down. It made all the difference in the world.
> 
> And again, sorry for the length.:wink: I just can't help my wordy ENFJ style :laughing:


In my mind, girls don't like explaining themselves. Especially when it comes to rejecting people. Girls in particular don't like saying no. That's sort of our gender roles. The man has to ask the girl, the girl has to accept or reject, and the male has to either engage in a new relationship or be hurt.

The guy has way more on the line, but it's still not fun having to determine someone's happiness by a simple "yes" or "no". 

And a lot of times a girls reasoning is simple, and so it's more hurtful. I mean, if a girl explained that she rejected me because she was in a bad place in her life or that she couldn't handle a relationship, cool. I don't feel so bad. But sometimes it's as simple as they're attracted to someone else, or they don't like your personality, or they don't find you physically attractive. And that hurts.

***

The best way to go about it is like a business. Don't be afraid to ask a girl out, and if she says no, don't be personally offended and move quickly to the next one. And when someone says yes, THEN become emotionally involved.

But getting a crush on someone, becoming attached, and liking someone from a far, and then asking them out puts a lot of pressure on it, and so the rejection hurts that much worse. And there will always be more rejections than acceptions.

The former method is usually taken by those in college and older, while the latter is a high school and younger trend. At least that's what I've noticed.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Ozziechick1966 said:


> (1) I've been hurt lots of times,and tended to internalize it and put the blame squarely on myself.But i now realise that it's not the end of the world when someone rejects me,i just move on to the next available option,till i find success.


When someone rejects you, it's rarely "your fault." However, even now as a middle-aged adult, when a woman rejects me I tend to think "her loss." Even in thinking that way, however, it hurts. You say it yourself under #6. I think it's naive of someone to think they can reject someone and believe they can do so without hurting someone. The key, IMO, is to never reject at all if you can get away with it. I'm uncertain in which post of mine it was, but I do say elsewhere I've been able to self-deprecate sufficiently, placing the blame squarely on myself when approached by a woman in whom I have absolutely zero interest, or one I must necessarily put off due to impropriety. Those in whom I do have interest, but may not date (or anything else outside of striking up a platonic friendship), again, I try to make it well known it's not a rejection of them, but rather a rejection of the timing. In cases like this, I'll normally invite them to join everyone else in my office. In any case, the above is what I mean when I say I reject them in the nicest possible fashion, or "let them down gently while building them up."




Ozziechick1966 said:


> (2)Teachers have a duty of care to not mislead their students or behave in a manner that is innapropriate to that teacher/student relationship.If a teacher has to be harsh in his/her rejection then so be it.When it comes to dating former students,well there is no obligation of duty of care or ethical responsibility so if both parties are consenting then i don't see any reason why they shouldn't date each other.


So, would you say with my Karate student, the one with whom I had the most magnificent relationship in my entire life, I was "inappropriate?" I believe if a teacher has to be harsh in their rejection, then they are lacking in the ability to be a good teacher. A poor teacher will find the need to be harsh because they've not come up with a way of achieving the same ends without being that way, *or* they just don't care how their student feels. When it comes to my younger Bachelors students, I guard them as though they were my own children (quite literally), especially since so many of them are away from their parents, away from any adult who truly gives a damn what happens to them. They all, every one, have my cell number so should they ever find themselves drunk and without another way to get home, or in need of an adults help (to bail them out of something minor, or to accompany them to the police if something horrible happens to them). Date rape is at an all time high amongst college students. Either that, or a higher % of women are reporting it than ever before. I hope, with all my heart, it's the latter, but believe, with all my brain, it's the former. A teacher who would find necessity in being so harsh with their students wouldn't have a relationship with them where that student would feel comfortable coming to them should something horrible happen. That, IMO, is an example of a poor teacher.



Ozziechick1966 said:


> (3) I think when it comes to children you need to make your stance very clear,and also need to be as kind as possible.Children can get over rejection very easily,but are also hurt very easily.One needs to be tactful but firm.


If by firm you mean "be certain" the child knows it's inappropriate, fine. If, by firm, you mean abrupt or harsh, I would disagree. I know somewhere earlier I described what I do in such instances. I tend to believe it's the best approach, but also recognize not everyone has both the desire and wits to handle the things the way I do, but I don't think that excuses anyone who is dismissive of a child's emotions when they're crushing on an adult. To that child, the puppy love is every bit as real to them as our far more developed potential relationships are to us.



Ozziechick1966 said:


> (4)You do need to be considerate of their feelings,but you also need to let them know that it isn't appropriate to form such relationships.


If you're talking about the "children" part, again, I stand by my actions, which not only let them know it's inappropriate, but also lets them know why. Again, that's drawing from my own experiences from when I was an adolescent and had vastly different experiences when being rejected by a woman out-of-hand, in an abrupt, harsh fashion, and being rejected by a girl who was nice enough to explain to me why. When talking about the student/teacher relationship, I don't feel the least bit of guilt re: dating my MMA students now, nor did I ever feel any guilt about dating my Karate students when I had my own dojo. Of course, I think I've been more than clear re: my college students. 



Ozziechick1966 said:


> (5)You can do your best not to hurt their feelings,but it's going to hurt no matter how tactful and gentle you are.


Sure, but the degree of pain, I would argue, is directly proportional to the way in which one turns down another. I really believe when I've convinced the woman it's not a good idea through self-deprecation the pain they feel, if any, is at worst short term. If the aforementioned no longer show up to my office to talk with everyone, chances are pretty good the only reason they were showing up in the first place was to hope they could develop something. I should probably note, as I do teach several different classes on behavior, one of them being an undergrad class on relationships (romance in the cyber-age to be more specific), I do make it known to my classes that I'm single (well, divorced), thus my opinions and observations come directly from that standpoint. I believe the opinions of those who are single differ from those who are married (or have a life partner) as radically as those of people who have a child/children to look after do from those who are childless. 



Ozziechick1966 said:


> (6)People are going to be hurt no matter how you try to let them down gently.They may try not to show it,but it will still sting for a while,or they may never get over it.


But again, the degree and duration of pain are directly proportional, IMO, to how harshly and abruptly one lets another down. The socially inept, IMO, fail to see this and seem incapable of caring how they reject another, most likely because they see it as an imposition instead of the teaching opportunity it is.


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## Empecinado (May 4, 2010)

Rejection is enviable in circumstances, especially in the future if you do not deal with the rejection appropriately. 

Quite often people will attempt to reject you as a result of their own insecurities hoping that you will react in a certain way. Don't let it get to you. 

I tend to not idealise a person before I have properly met them but of course I do the occasional stalking. 

There are plenty of equally compatible people in the world, especially if you look at the statistics. There's almost 7 billion people (discounting children and old people).


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

Rejection sucks, didn't even give it a chance. Seems superficial to me.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

@Chief i am in no way inferring that you shouldn't show concern and care for your students.I am talking about sexual relationships,and i would say that if your karate student was a consenting adult the situation would be somewhat different than if it were a teacher/student relationship at school.You still have a duty of care to your students to act in a responsible and ethical manner however.My comments were my views and i'm not saying that you are wrong in the way you have handled the situation.I really haven't been in the position to be the rejector,but have been the rejectee numerous times, and often have been given no explanation as to why i am being rejected/dumped.


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## bigtex1989 (Feb 7, 2011)

I've been rejected plenty. It's hard not to be when you talk to a lot of pretty girls . I'm usually not phased by it. It turns into more of a "well thank you for the conversation! It stayed my boredom for a moment and I appreciate that." In relationships, I have been dumped quite a bit. The first time I was ever dumped, I was absolutely devastated. I couldn't function for a few days because all these questions were swirling through my head. I actually became a sexist for a few months because I thought "How could a woman do that to me? She is disgusting...all women must be!" (She led me on, used me for my body, and when I told her about my feelings later on she dropped me like a hot potato.) It got a lot easier after that. I was actually proud of the last girl that dumped me. I was really glad to see her grow as a person enough to be comfortable with her independence and dump me. She was also pretty meek so to confront me like that was a huge step for her. (I was not domineering in the least, she just hated confrontation THAT much.) I now view rejection as a statement that there was no compatibility rather than one being better than the other. If there is no initial attraction, it would be much harder to build a relationship. It's a pretty whatever thing now.

I don't think ANYONE should be purposefully harsh in rejection at first. If the person doesn't understand the rejection, then it would be time to kick it up a notch. Harshness right off the bat seems a bit cruel. Kind of like kicking a person when they are down.

Adults shouldn't be harsh either. When I was about 4, I asked my mom to marry me because I loved her so much. Apparently this is normal for little boys. She kindly said (I don't remember this, she has told this story about 1000 times), "I'm sorry, but I'm married to your father. One day you'll find another woman you love enough to marry!" I then said, "OK MOM! " and walked off and didn't care.

I don't think "understanding and considerate" are the correct words in my opinion, but I'd rather not argue semantics and trivial changes. I think it is more important to be understanding and considerate of children's feelings than a those of a college student though. This does not mean, however, that I condone harshness. I just think you can be more blunt and logical with a college student.

I don't think you should necessarily AVOID hurting the other person's feelings, but you shouldn't try to by any means. Convey your message clearly and with no room for interpretation in the nicest way possible. You should never replace clarity with tact in these situations though. Clarity is imperative I believe.

My experiences with rejection are that feelings will be hurt no matter what is said. End of story. That doesn't give permission to not even try, just realize that is the outcome. It's a losing battle. The initial reaction is that you are not good enough for someone else for whatever reason. This is rarely the case, but it is the first reaction. The next is embarrassment because you brought up feelings that were not mutual. Both of these are felt immediately and at nearly the same time. Time heals all things though. I wouldn't be too overly worried about your students. I would be a little wary about trying to console them by saying "Oh if only we met ABC when XYZ" or whatever. By placing conditions for her desired result, she might come back when those conditions are met. This might be favorable or unfavorable to you, I don't really know lol. 

As far as teacher/student dating, as long as the student is no longer in the class, and never has another class with that teacher, I see no problem. There are no longer excessive perks to the relationship (very little room for favoritism, although research could apply, and no more grades). If it doesn't interfere with other students trying to succeed with that professor (through research positions or the like) then it's pretty whatever to me.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)




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## Intricate Mystic (Apr 3, 2010)

To the OP, I'm amazed that someone with a master's in psych and a PhD in Behavioral Analysis would even need to ask the question, "If you've been rejected by someone, were you hurt?". Any person who has experienced life to any extent should know the answer to that question. Also, the fact that another faculty member you talked to thought that women only hit on their professors in the movies should tell you that your experience is not the same as that of other faculty members. This should lead you to ask the question,"Why does this happen to me but not necessarily other professors"? I think you aren't drawing proper boundaries in your interactions with students. It is quite possible to let students know you are interested in only professional interactions with them and nothing else by the way you conduct yourself. The fact that so many women are expressing romantic interest in you suggests to me that you are doing something to encourage this. A lot of professors do not encourage their students to hang out in their office. If you don't want this problem, stop having so many interactions with students in your office- do it in the classroom before and after class and by email. Office interactions should be for professional discussions about class/course issues and questions. Set the proper boundaries and you will not have these problems.


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## FXGZ (May 19, 2011)

Usually alright if I get a rejection when I am asking him out or something.

Very emotional if I had him yet he still decided to reject me.


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## soul215 (Apr 26, 2011)

Rejection makes me chase even more. Ill turn that rejection into an approval. It happens many times before... then I get bored and move on - s i g h -


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## Jwing24 (Aug 2, 2010)

It really sucks initially but is probably for the best. Sometimes you haven't realized yet they aren't right for you. I have never rejected anyone. I have been rejected then agreed that it would never work though.


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## Romascu (Apr 27, 2011)

Didn't read it, but basically i'm desentized to the negative effects of it. 

The beneficial thing i get from rejection is hate and anger.

You see, i need hatred to function right.

Sometimes i ask out girls just for the rejection when i feel i am too jaded even to feel hate.

Not enough hate lately.

Hate and anger used to keep me going and were adequate for my way of life and my personality, can't be happy living like the average joe.


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## etherealuntouaswithin (Dec 7, 2010)

Depends on who it was, but generally i move on quickly.


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## Epimer (Mar 21, 2011)

Like shit.



True.



I get over it, but I feel pretty useless for a bit first.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

There's a difference between pain and injury. There's also a difference between pain and cruelty. Why do you think that it's preferable or even possible to live a life free from pain?

Pain is in fact healthy to experience, and it's essential to establish boundaries. For example, I've found that "soft" breakups with girlfriends only led to confusion which, if allowed to last, would lead to increased pain if they remained invested.

What's more cruel and injurious, rejecting these students' advances (not the students themselves, but their advances) who are learning social and professional boundaries, protocols and consequences, and showing them how to do so in a civil and professional manner, or failing to do this and allowing them to proceed into the minefield that would be either a taboo romantic relationship with a current professor or the ongoing but false impression that one is possible or even happening? Both options involve pain, but only the latter involves injury. 

Certainly, don't be obnoxious or humiliate your students, but the rejection needs to be direct and matter of fact, which I suspect you're essentially doing, albeit wracked by guilt which I think is misplaced.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

soul215 said:


> Rejection makes me chase even more. Ill turn that rejection into an approval. It happens many times before... then I get bored and move on - s i g h -


drama!

I just move on to the next one. It can't really get to you if you don't take it personally. Invest more of your head and less of your heart when you go after people and it usually turns out the way it does whenever you try to accomplish anything else in your life. Well anything that isn't majorly important to your life.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I have very intense crushes, always on one special person, to the point where nobody else appeals to me at all. I put all of my hopes in one basket, so when I am rejected, it is utterly devastating. It feels like my whole world is falling apart, since at any given time, the one thing I secretly want more than anything else is to be loved back by the one I love. Sometimes it is so powerful that I would rather have body parts chopped off than have to face rejection. Sometimes it takes years to get over it, if I get over it at all. I think you are right to handle the situation as gently as possible.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

redmanINTP said:


> There's a difference between pain and injury. There's also a difference between pain and cruelty. Why do you think that it's preferable or even possible to live a life free from pain?
> 
> Pain is in fact healthy to experience, and it's essential to establish boundaries. For example, I've found that "soft" breakups with girlfriends only led to confusion which, if allowed to last, would lead to increased pain if they remained invested.
> 
> ...


Actually, if you read my other responses, you'll come across the one where I describe in a fair amount of detail what my actual "reject the student" procedure is, and the best thing is, for the most part, I'm able to get them to drop the idea themselves without ever having to reject them. I talk to them about whether it would be a good idea, and why or why not. I ask the questions and let them answer their own questions which effectively convinces the bulk of them any relationship between a college prof and a present student is a bad idea. The ones where I AM wracked with guilt are the ones where I can't talk them out of it, and I have to get serious and tell them, straight up, I like my job, and it really doesn't matter how cool I think they are (and of course tell them right then "I DO think you're cool... I really DO!!!"), or how good looking (ditto the previous parantheses only with "good looking" instead of "cool") they are, I am not going to lose my job over sex. It's just SO! not worth it. That's when I've had people cry. I also invite them to my office free-for-all chats during office hours (though a lot of the offers come from chicks who start off going to those small gatherings).

The point was mainly I believe one should be as kind as possible when turning someone down, and do it in the most direct but compassionate way possible. I think stepping on people and treating them like garbage and being harsh when you turn someone down, no matter the situation is for the INTxs of the world. Most of the rest of us understand others have feelings and their feelings count too.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

I have trouble with romantic rejection..especially when it is clearly due to the fact that she thinks I am not attractive.
In the case of the OP, I would be disappointed but would react better since I could tell myself it is for "professional reasons". 
It is such a sting to the ego. I know it's a problem I need to fix.

I know this is going to sound awful but I have made a woman who rejected me cry before because I got obnoxious.
I will point out every flaw I have seen in her and "explain logically" why I agree that we wouldn't be compatible. 
I seem calm on the outside while I am fuming on the inside. 
I know it is awful but that has been my way of dealing with pain in the past..next time something like that happens, I hope I can (at the very least) keep my mouth shut.

Even though, I know that I "win" if I act like I don't care about her rejection of me.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Chief said:


> *The point was mainly I believe one should be as kind as possible when turning someone down, and do it in the most direct but compassionate way possible. *I think stepping on people and treating them like garbage and being harsh when you turn someone down, no matter the situation is for the INTxs of the world. Most of the rest of us understand others have feelings and their feelings count too.


I completely agree with the bolded sentence and in fact said as much. Frankly, it's so obvious that to any decent person it's a truism so I don't see how much insight this adds. 

As for the INTX's comment, I fail to see any personality type that has a monopoly on empathy, or how INTX's have a monopoly on sadism. Was this the whole point, to try indicate that INTX's would be rude? If so, that's absurd. 

As we all know from MBTI theory, while there are aspects of INT's that can certainly lend themselves to coldness, especially in tense social situations, mature INT's will soften that and may do an excellent job of it. Meanwhile, there are plenty of emotional F's that I can see completely biffing a "break-up" or other type of emotional situation, such as the often theatrical ESFP for example. 

Anyway, I guess I'm not sure what you were trying to get at with the thread now, though the scenario you were describing certainly is an interesting - and difficult - real life problem with your students.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Sorry I did not read the entire thread, but if the concern is to reject someone kindly, being frank and straightforward helps.

Rejection would hurt more if the person feels strung along.

Making it clear to the person and saying, "I do not see you and I together. I would rather us be friends" and not keep them as friends seems fair. By doing so, there is no leading a person on.

Or keep the conversations short. I know. I hate feeling cold, but if someone strung me along, I would hate that. Other times, being nice to someone may also make them think that it's about playing hard to get. An honest discussion at hand is nice.

Plus, use your professional stance to let the other person know too, especially as a professor, there are always laws and ethics regarding being in position of power that can easily be brought up, and hopefully the student crushes will understand. Be firm.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)




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## McFly (Aug 5, 2009)

Chief said:


> I recently had a rather heated discussion with someone regarding whether or not someone who is being rejected by a member of, well, was going to say the opposite sex, however, I suppose it's more appropriate to say someone you wish to date. As a professor whom some women do not find completely hideous, and one who welcomes his students (Male/Female/Other) to come and spend time in my office even just to sit around and talk if they like, I've faced the unfortunate necessity of turning some women down who've never before been turned down. A few of them have even been women with whom I had extensive contact beforehand and even had taken classes with them before I was "qualified" to teach them. Nevertheless, they were all my students when they asked me, and so I had to turn them down, as it's university policy (though professors are allowed to teach their spouses and children).
> 
> What brought up the argument was I insisted when I turned these women down, I did the right thing by letting them down gently as I could using the situation as a teaching opportunity, explaining the reasons any romantic relationship while they were my student would be indecorous, then building them back up (e.g. "Were I not your teacher and we'd met ABC as XYZ, you'd have to beat me off with a stick" or something similar). Even when doing my best, there were still some (usually the ones I knew had likely never been turned down before) who turned deep red from embarrassment, some even cried. None of them ever came to my office "just to chat" with the groups of us in there again, at least not while they were still my student. It was my contention in this discussion that when rejecting someone who has made such a proposal, if one is abrupt, one causes even _more_ pain. I know whenever I've been turned down, it certainly hurts! They contended under no circumstances could someone be hurt by this rejection (even compared college students and grad students to children). If it _*didn't*_ hurt, if there were no pain in getting rejected, men would simply go around asking every woman everywhere, every minute to go have sex until they were successful, and no woman anywhere would hesitate to ask a man out. As neither of those is the case, it seemed blatantly obvious to me I was not the only one who felt hurt when rejected--it seemed to me all but psychopaths, sociopaths and INTxs would be hurt. Am I really the only person who gets hurt when rejected? Am I really that big of an exception?
> 
> ...


Irony: the word loquaciousness made your post more loquacious


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Move on. My self-esteem/self-worth is not contingent on validation from anyone else.


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## waterviolet (Apr 28, 2010)

But rejection and the act of being "hurt" would really only hurt if these women had an emotional attachment to the person doing the rejecting. I suppose what I'm most curious about would be finding answers to the exact intent each of these women approaching you. Just because one may have cried does not mean she was hurt by the rejection - she could simply be embarassed by her own action - depending upon her intent of course.


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## DustyDrill (May 20, 2011)

I don't really make a move, I just let them come to me while I do my own thing. So I don't really get rejected. I've been played once, and I just laughed in her face and broke all contact. No biggy.

The only time rejection hurts me is when I love the person. I tend to go into passive-aggressive over-analyze mode.


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## kudi (Sep 27, 2011)

> it seemed to me all but psychopaths, sociopaths and INTxs would be hurt


Rejection gets easier to handle as you get more experienced. The first ones hurt since its new and you already have high expectations of the future. Now, if I ask someone I am mentally prepared for the possibility of rejection. I don't think that is unique to me, everyone has their own method protecting themselves emotional. 

I think saying INTxs are not hurt from rejection is unfair. It still hurts, If you said we recovered more quickly I could believe that. INTxs may not be able to express emotions as well as other types, but that doesn't mean its not there.


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## daydr3am (Oct 20, 2010)

The more emotionally invested I am in a person, the more hurt I feel by rejection. I have casually asked out several men from an online dating site and the majority of them do not respond. I interpret this as rejection, and while I am disappointed, it doesn't hurt me since I don't know them and don't have any sort of relationship with them.

I agree with you that teachers should never date students and that they should be let down gently. Some people get fanciful and some are more sensitive than others, so it's just best to be considerate to everyone.


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## DustyDrill (May 20, 2011)

kudi said:


> Rejection gets easier to handle as you get more experienced. The first ones hurt since its new and you already have high expectations of the future. Now, if I ask someone I am mentally prepared for the possibility of rejection. I don't think that is unique to me, everyone has their own method protecting themselves emotional.
> 
> I think saying INTxs are not hurt from rejection is unfair. It still hurts, If you said we recovered more quickly I could believe that. INTxs may not be able to express emotions as well as other types, but that doesn't mean its not there.


I think introverted thinkers just seem like it's easy for them. You'll never see the empty hole in an IxTx's soul from a heart break, because they'll never reveal it. It festers longer, but not as intensely. However, generally, we aren't phased by meaningless rejection.

I think heart break will be easier for me the next time it happens, as I know how I react and can take steps to speed up the process. Gotta love learning from experience.


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## Mercer (Nov 6, 2009)

There is no rejection, only feedback.


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## Dashing (Sep 19, 2011)

Rejection is for people who try!


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## ACR (Jan 17, 2011)

Chief said:


> As neither of those is the case, it seemed blatantly obvious to me I was not the only one who felt hurt when rejected--it seemed to me all but psychopaths, sociopaths and INTxs would be hurt.
> 
> For those I rejected whose eyes welled up with tears or who had tears running down their face during the rejection, I'd say it all but the most interpersonally moronic (read: INTx), could figure out these women were both hurt and embarrassed.


:O The bringing up of INTxs... it is too damning don't you think? I find it a rather unhealthy generalisation.


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## ACR (Jan 17, 2011)

DustyDrill said:


> I think introverted thinkers just seem like it's easy for them. You'll never see the empty hole in an IxTx's soul from a heart break, because they'll never reveal it. It festers longer, but not as intensely. However, generally, we aren't phased by meaningless rejection.
> 
> I think heart break will be easier for me the next time it happens, as I know how I react and can take steps to speed up the process. Gotta love learning from experience.


There you go! Haha.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

Also










And add a side of this:


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

TheBly said:


> Forgive me for only reading like, half of that...
> 
> But for me, rejection only hurts because the said person then has to assume that:
> 
> ...


And that's why god invented sin, giving me the power to pay women to have sexy time, and bye bye thoughts.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Mercer said:


> There is no rejection, only feedback.


 Except when there is no response what-so-ever.


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## Mercer (Nov 6, 2009)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> Except when there is no response what-so-ever.


still feedback


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Mercer said:


> still feedback


then it's useless feedback with no constructive thoughts in mind.


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## Mercer (Nov 6, 2009)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> then it's useless feedback with no constructive thoughts in mind.


yes it is.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

ACR said:


> :O The bringing up of INTxs... it is too damning don't you think? I find it a rather unhealthy generalisation.


Now, yes... it's FAR too generalized a statement, and there are some INTJs I've met who would also easily have been able to figure out the women were both hurt and embarrassed. When I wrote it I hadn't met really ANY INTxs who had the slightest degree of interpersonal intellect, and even now, the ones who've become my friends don't ascribe to be amongst the most astute interpersonally. It is, perhaps, their greatest flaw as a temp., similar to an ENFJs frequent inability to exclude someone, even when it's the healthiest and smartest thing to do (e.g. when someone who has taken and ENFJ for granted so many times and hurt them so frequently as to be blatantly obvious they're going to do it again, the ENFJ STILL has a problem cutting such people out of their lives. It took me almost 35 years before I was able to do it without feeling insanely guilty).

Perhaps better put would have been "all but psychopaths, sociopaths, and *unhealthy* INTxs would be hurt" and I certainly apologize to those INTxs who ARE healthy enough to realize other people's emotions do matter.


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

Rejection always goes down easier when you have an internal "Debbie Downer" soundtrack


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## Matthew Hartmann (Oct 6, 2011)

I tend to react very badly. I know I shouldn't let it hurt me as much as it does but I'm the type who will cut somebody out of his life if it hurts too much to be around you. *Sigh* Always happens when I let a girl get too close to me and I reveal my inner-self. (I'm an ENFJ).

A lot of bad experiences have made it hard for me to trust girls past the line of friendship. I'm trying to get past it but it's hard when I've been screwed over so many times.


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## kemmicals (Nov 14, 2010)

i've never been technically rejected, but i'm terrified of it, mostly because of the embarrassment i know i'd feel. It feels like I'd either pitied by them if they're nice, or laughed at by them for my attempts if they're not - both of which are belittling and humiliating for me. 

I try to avoid it as much as possible if i'm rejecting someone, by acting as normal as possible after or being friendlier but not in a pitying way - although i know if i overdo this it just seems like i'm leading them on again and i don't want that either..


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

I used to be rejected when I was in high school and everyone thought I was ugly. Now beautiful swan laugh at them! 

I'm not afraid of rejection...I'm more afraid of what happens if I reject someone and they're not mentally stable enough to take it, which is why I don't bother asking...and that trust thing, too.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Look at it this way, have any of you ever been in sales? The way you treat people is as if they are a commodity that gives you gains when told yes and no losses when told no. Treating others that you hit on the same way makes you oblivious to ulterior motives and never questions a persons response when given even if it's a yes or an ignoring no. Do not expect, just do.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Huh. I'd like someone to say it briefly and clearly, maybe not even directly, then brush it off so we can say it never happened. The longer you make me talk about, the more you ackowledge you are aware of it as much as I am, the more humiliated I feel. I suppose it doesn't make sense, but sympathy would only hurt me in this instance. Maybe it takes away the option for sour grapes, I don't know.

Non-romantic example-- once in a track meet my coach mis-timed my splits so he cut off like 25 seconds which would have put me way in front of my peers and won me state, basically, also gotten me a free ride to college (how we didn't realize right away baffles me). we were all like WTF HOW and everyone was so excited for me, it was kind of bewildering, because I was like, "I didn't do anything different... what?" Anyways, I ended up finding out at home later that day through the grape-vine I had been mis-timed. That would have been enough. I was kind of "that sucks" but at least y'know, it was announced, I wasn't humiliated or anything. Mistakes are made, whatever. But the next day my coach mid-talk with the team was like, "I'd like to talk to you outside," And I said, "I already know, don't worry about it." he shook his head and kept motioning for me to come outside and started explaining in detail how he'd messed up, how embarrassed he was, how very sorry he was. And I said, "ok, it's fine," smile smile let me go please and then he took out the paper with the splits and his stop watch and walked me step. through. step. of my fall from glory.

Thanks, coach, I feel so much better now that I know _you feel bad_ when it's not even about you.

But, this doesn't all apply to you. Point is, it would have been much better if my coach had been more tactful and let me keep my pride and dignity as opposed to _rubbing something hurtful in_ _someone's face in a context they can't even get mad at you._
Not to say my coach was a bad guy or anything, he felt VERY contrite, he's a real decent guy, I liked him... but his clearing of his own personal guilt was really for his own benefit, and when you think about it, why was I the one who had to be the person to receive it? It only hurt my pride. Also, then I had to sit there and be like, "oh... it's ok..." What do you expect these girls to say, "OH y'know dude, you're totally right! No sour grapes, in another life then, but hey, let's still be friends, now that I've put myself out there!"

In other words, people know rejection is rejection, no matter how much you explain it or try to "build them up"- you are still in the rejection position and by using that place as a platform, you are humiliating them on something they'd rather just run out of the room from.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

I think it depends on the context of the situation. I often do not understand why others associate "crushes" or slight emotional attachment as a bad thing. To me, as long as you know your role, and why they see you as such, then this is fine. If someone push that boundary, then I would either indirectly hint, in order to let them down gently, or if they are brash individuals, then I would mimic them and turn them down directly. As an adult, you do get a sense of responsibility to look after those who are younger than you as not to bully them, but it does not mean that you would and should sleep with them or anything of that kind of nature, cos where is your own moral structure if you do that ? You will probably break that kind of mould and conviction within yourself, and then maybe one day you will resent your own self because of that. It is a low blow to a person's integrity, and dignity. 

I think for young girls, it is so much more embarrassing really. You do need to be more careful and take care of not being too direct, blunt, or harsh in such a way that it affects their own ego or self development too. Nor should they indeed use you as a major flirt object. Or maybe they will do, but you got to maintain the upper hand in a way. Cos how does that make you as a person if you went past that stage ? I genuinely think that it does do something to your own psyche as well. I now know that.

I guess giving people dignity and not to embarrass them in such situation means to turn away a blind eye and hope that they catch on what they are doing and move on.


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