# Stereotypes or Core Features You Don't Relate to With Your Core Type



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Do you know your core type with *almost certainty *but don't fit some of its key features? Do share! It might be helpful for someone who isn't sure of theirs. I've broken it down:


1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?

2. How sure are you?

3. List some *stereotypes* you don't relate to.

4. List some *core features* (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.

5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)


*Keep suggestions on other peoples' types to a minimum here*. Feel free to PM people if you think they aren't the type they suggest.


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## old_bean (Jun 5, 2012)

1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)? ISFJ

2. How sure are you? 100% sure. I always, always, always score ISFJ and have since I was like 12.  

3. List some *stereotypes you don't relate to: "Doesn't like theory/higher education" - actually, I wish I could live at school. I love deep intellectual discussions. I am currently completing a masters in theology and before that I studied art history and cultural studies.

4. List some core features (from reliable sources) you don't relate to: ISFJs have a hard time not secretly judging those who don't fit their personal values (deviant folks). I'm not sure how much I can relate to this. 

5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)

Even though I love theory, I have realized that I actually become quite frustrated when I am unable to ground theories in my personal experiences or the concrete world. So there's a limit to how theoretical I can be. Also, I know I'm an S because I'm very observant (but have a harder time knowing things intuitively), I'm gullible (take people at face value), I love taking care of the details and DOING what needs to be done to execute an idea, and I love to home-make (i.e. make living spaces feel warm and welcoming). 


*


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Psst, @old_bean, we're in the Enneagram forum


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## old_bean (Jun 5, 2012)

Lol, yeah, I JUST realized that now. Woops!!


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

*1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?*
6w7 sp/sx

*2. How sure are you?*
90% sure.

*3. List some stereotypes you don't relate to.*
I think it might be quicker to list the stereotypes I _do _relate to -_-

*4. List some core features (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.*
- Fear is not the worst thing ever. I don't avoid or "fear" my anxiety.
- I don't really care enough about most things to be super vigilant or to always question them.
- The concepts of "trust," "loyalty," and "betrayal" don't cross my mind unless someone else mentions it.
- I am not sociable, optimistic, or peppy. (w7)
- I think the more graphic sp/sx descriptions are gross and uncalled for.

*5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)*
Eh. Due to the type in question being 6, it's more like "I know I embody the motivations of type 6" than it is "I totally fit authors' ideas of what 6 is."


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?
sx/sp 5w6

2. How sure are you?
99.99% (always have to leave some possibility for error no matter how small)

3. List some *stereotypes* you don't relate to.
Don't have feelings - This article describes it better than I can.

4. List some *core features* (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.
From Riso:


 *Basic Fear:* Being useless, helpless, or incapable 
 *Basic Desire:* To be capable and competent 

5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)
It's more about *being prepared* before jumping in. Habit is to extensively *research and analyze mentally*, put pieces together until they create a logical whole (big picture containing the pieces) - *delay jumping into action* because there *always seems to be more to analyze* or that's missing before the *big picture* is complete. Often don't trust other people's process for doing this so would rather analyze the raw data myself.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

*1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?*7w8 Sp/Sx

​*2. How sure are you?*95%​
*3. List some **stereotypes you don't relate to*



[*=1]Not keeping commitments (this does happen, but I also tend to stay in commitments much longer than I should)
[*=1]Scattered interests (I am scattered _within _my interests, not scattered with topics of interest)
[*=1]Avoidance of pain (I'm aware of my own pain and dark side, but not the full extent. Physical pain doesn't really bug me either)
[*=1]Optimist (I tend to look at the negatives and get caught in thickets of negative perception despite _hoping for better_)
[*=1]Intellectual (I only sound intellectual. Truly smart people are aware of what's in front of them, and I'm not always great at that/would rather synthesize something new.)
[*=1]Wild (I have no issues with a shakeup or doing something bold, but not if it's going to lead to being arrested or calling the fire department. Make it loud and clear, but make it measured too)
[*=1]Idealistic (this is true, but I don't always look like an idealist on the outside)
[*=1]Not Serious (people think I have a stick up my ass and take things like work, personal life etc way too seriously)
[*=1]Party animal (I'll beat you in a whiskey drinking contest to the point you're gurgling alcoholic vomit in your sleep - WHEN I party, but that is very rare. I would rather sit around on the computer on a Friday).
[*=1]Argumentative (only if you're impeding on my space, or I'm bored)
[*=1]Materialistic (would be more likely to try and go without)

*4. List some **core features (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.
*



[*=1]Honestly, I relate to all of the critical features of my core type. It's the stereotypes I believe to be badly misaligned.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

*1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?*
5w4 sx/sp

*2. How sure are you?*
Extremely sure.

*3. List some stereotypes you don't relate to.*
Bookish, nerdish, emotional robot, researcher, scientist, knowledge-hoarder, master of a specific trade. 

*4. List some core features (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.*
What core features?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

*1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?*

7 Sp/Sx

* 2. How sure are you?*

Over 90%

* 3. List some stereotypes you don't relate to.*

~ I am fairly *conscientious*. Not in a "right/wrong", "good/bad" universal sense, but moreso a personal "healthy/unhealthy", "worthwhile/waste", "meaningful/meaningless", "advantageous/unhelpful". I find the "should"s in my head, as annoying as they are, actually help me accomplish what's important to me.

~ I consider myself *responsible*. I tend to follow through on things I actually (not hypothetically) say I'll do.

~ I am *never bored*. My mind is endless entertainment. One of my favourite things to do is be alone in a comfortable room for hours. The only times I've been "bored" is when I've been trapped in a situation with unpleasant people that I couldn't for whatever reason escape.

~ I do not avoid my pain. Rather, I usually don't realize it's there.

~ I am not "socially confident". I actually have *social anxiety* and have been shy my whole life. The thing is I actively go against my fears because it's "worthwhile".

~ I am definitely not in any way a "people person". That applies more to 2, 6, 9, and maybe 3 anyway. I'm an idea person.

* 4. List some core features (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.*

(Most of these are probably from R&H, but others not).

~ Meaningless entertainment bothers me. I need to either be learning, intellectually stimulated, emotionally moved, or otherwise productive in some sense. That _could _be playing video games stoned, so long as any of the previous criteria have been met. Internally, I know when it's "too much" of something, and I can reasonably self-adjust.

~ I'm not all that spontaneous. I definitely act before I think sometimes, but usually my mind sits in the future and envisions how to make things happen. I usually refuse activities when not given enough prior notice.

~ I considered myself a true *introvert* for many years. Now I can see I have qualities of both sides, but still identify with introversion more strongly.

* 5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)*

~ Reading descriptions that were NOT some of the popular ones online made me better understand this type. When I first learned about enneagram, I immediately discounted 7 because it almost seemed opposite to me. I related most to 5 and 8.

~ Reading any Sp 7 description out there can send shivers down my spine. Definitely sealed my type when I was uncertain. The Sp 7 sounds quite different than what most people picture when they think 7. Reading Naranjo also confirmed this for me.

~ The enneagram was able to point out to me some flaws I was barely aware of, and others which I didn't even consider could negatively impact me/others. No other type has done this for me to this extent.

~ I can make a list of things I do relate to. It would include undying optimism, narcissism, self-absorption, aggressive positivity, excitement, extreme love of variety, fear of commitment, fear of living anywhere long-term, extreme fear of/aversion to taking care of others, thirst for freedom, thirst for collecting experience, fear of deprivation, fear of physical barriers, and so on.


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## Father of Dragons (May 7, 2012)

*1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?*

9w8, sx/so

*2. How sure are you?*

90%

*3. List some stereotypes you don't relate to.*

Being a door-mat. I don't let people walk all over me. I am quick to police my boundaries when people try to cross or ignore them.

Being unambitious; I am more ambitious than most of the people I know and I seem to have a much clearer picture of what it is I want to achieve than they do.

*4. List some core features (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.*

Resignation/apathy. I am very indifferent about little things in life that I am not overly concerned about. So, in ever day life I come off as very chill. But, when it comes to things which are important to me I am demanding and quite picky. If things don't work out the way I had planned I will figure out where I went wrong and try, try again. 

Gluttony. Naranjo in particular seems to equate enneagram point nine with being endomorphic and/or obese, and suggests that SP-nines exist in a state of "I eat, therefore I am." I am sp-last so that might have something to do with it, but I can't see any of that in myself. 

*5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)*

I relate intensely with the idea of Holy Love, and I can see that it is something which troubles me day in, day out. Looking back on my life so far, I can clearly identify when I took very round-about paths in attempting to secure the affection of people, in order to fill the sort of emptiness that I experience. Such experiences fit Almaas' concept of 'localized love' to the letter. It's scary how much his writing in particular describes me. 

The concept of 'fusion' as described by Naranjo for sx-9 is very accurate in describing my experiences as well.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

First of all, it's important to distinguish stereotypes from core features. They are two very different things. You may not relate to stereotypes and still be that type, but if you don't relate to the core features of a type, you're definitely not that type. 

So, for example, optimism being a key trait of 7s (hell just about their primary defense strategy in conjunction with rationalization) means that there is no such thing as a speshul snowflake pessimistic 7 who dwells on negativity habitually. Being a flighty extroverted party animal is NOT the core feature (think Naranjo's defense mechanisms and trait structures when contemplating core features) of Type 7.

Key features or Core features are patently not the same as "stereotypes". So, I hope people will be mindful of that difference in their responses, so we can actually have a productive discussion on this. 





Spades said:


> Do you know your core type with *almost certainty *but don't fit some of its key features? Do share! It might be helpful for someone who isn't sure of theirs. I've broken it down:
> 
> 
> 1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?


3w4 sp/sx

OR

7w8 sp/sx



> 2. How sure are you?


I am certain I am one of those types. Both are close enough for me, and I have a very complex history. I am no hurry to 'settle' on a type. 



> 3. List some *stereotypes* you don't relate to.


*Type 3:*

- superficial, shallow, overly concerned with people's opinions
- inauthentic, competitive with inconsequential shit
- concerned with social prestige 
- a sycophant or something close to it, super upbeat and inclusive (3w2s); dry as fuck, super reserved or whatever for 3w4
- shrewd/cunning; i am very strategic and ambitious, but i am not shrewd/scheming. when that game is played, i can usually win it by brute force alone
- i may be quite the silver tongued devil, but i am also extremely direct and straightforward, often saying things people lack the gumption to say. it takes no effort or skill on my end. it's always been easy for me to speak my mind.
- have little interest in social issues (i know quite a few 3s myself who are quite philanthropic and so on)


*Type 7:*

-superficial, flighty, scattered (i am very focused, persistent when I want to be even if it means overcoming my life-long trouble with discipline that people [except those close to me] are mostly unaware of given the scale of my achievements)
-easily bored; i am not easily bored because my mind provides an endless source of entertainment. i can make something out of nothing and keep my ass entertained very easily.
-'happy go lucky'; i tend to be truly optimistic (as opposed to someone conflating ingratiating behaviour with optimism), but i am not 'perky' or whatever. i have a morbid, zany sense of humour, and i can laugh at absolutely anything. i have laughed my way through a lot of tragedy and pain, though i also have a serious and focused side.
-not as competitive as 3. there are some very competitive world class athletes and scientists etc who are 7s. and they didn't get there by lacking any competitive drive. 
-non-committal; i like my escape routes, but when i commit to something, i don't back out as long as it's worth my time and long term goals
-somewhat like 3s (or if i am a 3), i have a versatile personality and can adjust it in relation to what i want



> 4. List some *core features* (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.


* Type 3:*

- polyphasic thinking (palmer)
- difficulty slowing down, a compulsive desire to continue working/staying productive (i have the opposite problem of being indisciplined and feeling entitled to more and better with less effort, though i've overcome tremendous odds which required a lot of work, so i hadn't looked deeper and assumed merely being hardworking meant 7 wasn't it at all)
-fear of losing worth; my fear of failure (that showed up after i failed in a way that totally ruined me) seems to have more to do with loss of options, autonomy, means to indulgence and freedom than loss of worth

* Type 7:*

- _Narcissists suffer few conflicts. Their past has supplied them perhaps too well with high_
_expectations and encouragements. As a result they are inclined to trust others and to feel_
_confidence that matters will work out well for them. (Naranjo) (not exactly core feature, but the influence shows in core features descriptions)

_My past has been tumultuous, full of the kind of violence and death and losses their break people's backs. My past hasn't supplied me with encouragements because it was oh so fun, though I always viewed myself as destined for greatness even as a child XD. I was also seen as some kind of genius, thanks to my near eidetic memory. :laughing: And, I totally bought into the hype rofl. Anyway, I am inclined to trust people until proven otherwise and inclined to feel confidence that things will work out for me despite my past, not because of it. If type is in-born as I consider it to be, it doesn't matter what kind of past you've had in relation to core features. You'd relate to them anyway.

My life has involved struggle, battles and triumph. This is stereotypically more 3 or 8 than 7, and I still have the tendency to minimize pain and to downplay grief or painful emotions (besides of course drowning them out with pleasure, indulgence, activities, plans and so on), even finding humour in it. 

What I quoted above is not listed as a main feature/trait/defense structure, but you will find echoes of this in the description of the type as happy go lucky etc. 

- I haven't found anything else yet that I don't relate to with regards to the core features of type 7. I just had paid very little attention to this type owing to half-baked stereotypes.


> 5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)


If you don't relate to core features of a type, you're not that type. The only other option is that you're misunderstanding said type or haven't yet uncovered your core cognitive distortions. Either way, you need to reflect more, and if you still don't relate to core features of a type, you're off-base for sure.

Because I have uncovered an important point or more where I seem to stray from the core feature of a type (3), I have thought more about it recently.


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## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

You're a 3 Boss.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Vanguard said:


> You're a 3 Boss.


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## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


>


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Vanguard said:


> ​


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?

1w9 sx/sp

2. How sure are you?

From all the info that I've read and analyzing my motivations in retrospective, I think I'm rather sure that it's my core type. I'm more detached, lazy and apathetic than 1w2, and I only rely on my inner code and inner standards, and I'm not people oriented nor resort to guilt tripping tactics, so that helped me to discern which was my wing.

3. List some *stereotypes* you don't relate to.

Being religious, being like an annoying teacher, focusing on irrelevant details, following all the rules even if they don't make any sense to me. In general I don't relate to all stereotypes that were written taking into account SJ types. In fact thanks to the dumb stereotypes I couldn't find out my core, until I decided to read something that had less BS.

4. List some *core features* (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.

I've read Naranjo's description and I didn't find anything that seemed off for me. I only read a bit of R&H, but meh, I know that the description is bad so I prefer to take into account sources that aren't biased in favour to some types.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> First of all, it's important to distinguish stereotypes from core features. They are two very different things. You may not relate to stereotypes and still be that type, but if you don't relate to the core features of a type, you're definitely not that type.
> 
> So, for example, optimism being a key trait of 7s (hell just about their primary defense strategy in conjunction with rationalization) means that there is no such thing as a speshul snowflake pessimistic 7 who dwells on negativity habitually. Being a flighty extroverted party animal is NOT the core feature (think Naranjo's defense mechanisms and trait structures when contemplating core features) of Type 7.
> 
> Key features or Core features are patently not the same as "stereotypes". So, I hope people will be mindful of that difference in their responses, so we can actually have a productive discussion on this.


My wording leaves room for interpretation of what "core features" are and aren't. For the most part, this will depend on the sources you read. But, I see type as more of a best-fit than a be-all end-all must-fit-all-core-features measure. There are several reasons why one might not fit some core features, while still relating to more than any other type. You give some examples yourself  Other examples include mental illness, which can alter the focus of the psyche immensely, but is it really altering the core type? Does a depressed 7 become a 4? Does a 9 with GAD become a 6? Does a 2 with agoraphobia become a 5? Of course not. *I'm not including personality disorders here because they are thought to be life-long, in which case they may be related to core type as Naranjo suggests.*


To add to my own post, because you reminded me of this:

~ I definitely do not have a blind faith in people. I actually have a severe lack of trust in people. At its worst, this is an elitist superiority. At its best, this is simply "if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself". I try to rely on people as little as possible so they can rely on me as little as possible. Intimacy is terrifying.

~ I may deny my current pain, but looking back at my past, it's *very easy* to identify all the pain and hardship I've survived. It's very clear to me and I use my past to evaluate my present situations. Sometimes, I *do* feel hopeless and like I was broken beyond repair! But I tend to bounce back quickly. Rationalization is a beautiful thing.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Spades said:


> My wording leaves room for interpretation of what "core features" are and aren't.


What they aren't is identical to stereotypes and something that can be conflated with the same. That's why that distinction is key.



> For the most part, this will depend on the sources you read. But, I see type as more of a best-fit than a be-all end-all must-fit-all-core-features measure.


I interpret core features of a type, as opposed to frivolous details expanding on the same, to be more or less uniform across authors. To be a certain type, a person will match the core cognitive distortions of a type, and I don't see type as 'be-all end all must fit all stereotypes and every single line in a description'. But, to be accurate, it has to be in line with the core motivations, fears, defense mechanisms and trait structures of a type. Whether you read Naranjo (critically) or Maitri, Palmer, Daniels and others (exclude the Fauvres' and the part where RH descriptions get superficial as fuck), the core features will line up. 



> There are several reasons why one might not fit some core features, while still relating to more than any other type. You give some examples yourself


There is no reason why a person may not fit the cognitive distortions of a type. Mental illness may make them hard to pinpoint or see in oneself. If you will notice what I said, I pointed out that the reason I have reconsidered 3 is because I don't relate to said core features that I hadn't earlier realized were an integral part of the fixation. I am not going to sit back and glaze over this and say..."oh well, I can cherry pick X or Y and still be a 3". The only reason why I may still end up being a 3 would be uncovering something that shows a gap in my self-understanding or understanding of the type.

But, if upon further examination, I continue to not relate to the core features of the type, it would mean it was a mistype. It's pretty commonsensical.


> Other examples include mental illness, which can alter the focus of the psyche immensely, but is it really altering the core type? Does a depressed 7 become a 4? Does a 9 with GAD become a 6? Does a 2 with agoraphobia become a 5? Of course not.


Oh, hell, I know. 

You won't come across a more vocal opponent of conflating type with pathology than I have been.I have written a shit ton of posts rubbishing the view that personality disorders or mental illness provide any clue into type or that they should be ever used as typing tools. There is absolutely no causal relationship between the two, and I have said the same a gazillion times and then some. I mean, it's fuckin obvious that personality disorders and phobias don't change a person's type.

I also have a history of dealing with PTSD, depression and more. So, I am particularly mindful of this. I have always made it a point to distinguish type from psychopathology. I knew a 3 who typed at 6 because of a cocktail of anxiety disorders, and I discussed her type with her until she could strip away the pathological influences and see her defense mechanisms etc. for what they were. 


> *
> 
> I'm not including personality disorders here because they are thought to be life-long, in which case they may be related to core type as Naranjo suggests.*


Clearly, nor am I. I don't find personality disorders to be related to type. Naranjo's explanation for that view has been along the lines of "I observed 80 people with Narcisstic Personality Disorder and most of them seemed like 3s". Lolwut? 


That's garbage. His attempt to legitimize the Enneagram in the eyes of the scientific community by equating neurosis with loss of Being and making loose correlations between type and Personality Disorders (echoed in the works of RH's health levels) does not mean that the two are related. Anyone can have NPD or OCD or Schizoid personality. I know a type 1 with diagnosed and multiple times confirmed NPD. It's my mother. There are plenty of examples out there of people whose types don't align with their personality disorders. Passing resemblance between type and PD does not imply one causes the other, as you'd know. Besides, multiple Personality Disorders are correlated with multiple types in Enneagram literature. I, personally, don't see a point to it. A psychospiritual system like the Enneagram is not a diagnostic tool. Period. Neurosis is not characterological as Naranjo suggests. And, CN is really dated in relation to research on clinical neuroses and various psychotherapy related theories and treatment options. 


> To add to my own post, because you reminded me of this:
> 
> ~ I definitely do not have a blind faith in people. I actually have a severe lack of trust in people. At its worst, this is an elitist superiority. At its best, this is simply "if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself". I try to rely on people as little as possible so they can rely on me as little as possible. Intimacy is terrifying.


Type 7 isn't about 'blind faith' in people. Type 7 trust is about not anticipating harm or abandonement in advance, which is more a reactive deal. If you anticipate the same and don't trust for that reason, then you need to think more about your typing.

Trust is multi-faceted. There are competency types and competence focused positive outlookers who don't trust others to do as good a job as they can. 3s don't trust anyone's competence more than they trust their own. But, they don't have the mistrust of a 6 or 8. They don't anticipate negativity like 6s, nor do 7s, for example.

I trust myself to be the most competent, but I don't concern myself with hidden meanings, clues and so on, nor do I assume mistrust. Being terrified of intimacy has nothing to do with Type. 7s dislike being tied down, so it's not unusual for a 7 to not want others to rely on them. I, for one, dislike people who try to drag me down or become dependent on me. I help people on my own terms.




> ~ I may deny my current pain, but looking back at my past, it's *very easy* to identify all the pain and hardship I've survived. It's very clear to me and I use my past to evaluate my present situations. Sometimes, I *do* feel hopeless and like I was broken beyond repair! But I tend to bounce back quickly. Rationalization is a beautiful thing.


Again, being a 7 has nothing to do with never feeling hopeless. 7s suffer clinical depressions. 7s experience ruin. They fall hard. They survive addictions, abusive relationships. They're not immune to identifying with their pain. There are 7s who identify with their overcoming and view life with remarkable equanimity. This is why I laugh off the happy go lucky bullshit, because it elevates stereotypes over human concerns. I am a poet, and I have been into theatre. It's processed pain. Agony that flows like wine, landslides and blood. Plenty of 7 artists explored dark and melancholic themes. Look at Dali's Spanish Civil War painting. Read some of Neruda's poems. When he writes of war, he writes in a cynical pained angry tone. This is human. 7s aren't above responding to hardship with grief and more. 

None of what you said contradicts that type, not to someone who knows what it's about anyway.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

I think we disagree on the core idea that one should fit all of a type's core features (I wasn't talking about stereotypes). I mean yes of course there will be distortions in understanding types and understanding self, but I'm of the opinion that it's simply a best-fit and it applies more to some than others. I'm more interested in how different qualities of *different types* (whether it be cognitive distortions, defense mechanisms, or what have you) apply to me, and apply to others. Looking at the enneagram as a whole, with influences from every core, some more than others, has been much more helpful to me than looking at myself as a single individual type interacting with other individual types.

I guess that's why I found tritypes so appealing at first.

Here's an aside question for you: How does one use Type to sort through past traumas/experiences/illness? I find it almost irrelevant in my case, requiring a different technique altogether, divorced from typology. I don't disagree that Naranjo overemphasizes the connection between pathology and typology. I said I just don't want to touch that as it'd be opening a whole other can of worms ;P

Edit: @Cosmic Orgasm (See below for better explanation of what I was trying to say above):

Addendum: It's possible that everyone must a) Fit all the core features of their type *and*, b) Not fit all the core features of any other type. What I'm saying is that this seems unlikely to me, but perhaps the system is set up that it's foolproof and every person in the world meets both these criteria. Even if true, the distortion of past trauma/experience/illness *and* distorted understanding of the enneagram *and* distorted understanding of the self, would make this a practical nightmare anyway. Hence the more practical best-fit approach I propose.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Spades said:


> I think we disagree on the core idea that one should fit all of a type's core features (I wasn't talking about stereotypes). I mean yes of course there will be distortions in understanding types and understanding self, but I'm of the opinion that it's simply a best-fit and it applies more to some than others. I'm more interested in how different qualities of *different types* (whether it be cognitive distortions, defense mechanisms, or what have you) apply to me, and apply to others. Looking at the enneagram as a whole, with influences from every core, some more than others, has been much more helpful to me than looking at myself as a single individual type interacting with other individual types.


See, the disagreement exists but may be less pronounced than we think. I don't disagree with your assertion it's simply a best-fit and applies more to some than others. I said on the tritype thread, that we are connected with all the 9 types through the 4 kinds of triads, wings, lines of dis/in (though I am more of a Palmer/Daniel security points person). So, relating with one core type doesn't mean you won't still have traits in common with other types. But, the core features of a type will still be there and shouldn't contradict if you're correctly typed. 

I am also interested in how one relates to other types. There have been some good threads on the subject like how do you relate to the other 8 types where I really contemplated my connection with all the 9 fixations. I found that a very useful exercise. Also, some authors attribute more than one defense mechanism to individual types. Besides, we use defense mechanisms of types other than our core type. 

I have talked at length about my agreement with Almaas's approach of awakening or, in my case, at least understanding the 9 fixations. It gives me a more wholesome understanding, and I have always talked about learning from the growth strategies of all 9 types. There's much to be learnt from the struggles of various types. 



> I guess that's why I found tritypes so appealing at first.


I empathize with their initial appeal. I still find them fun to dabble in lol.



> Here's an aside question for you: How does one use Type to sort through past traumas/experiences/illness? I find it almost irrelevant in my case, requiring a different technique altogether, divorced from typology. I don't disagree that Naranjo overemphasizes the connection between pathology and typology. I said I just don't want to touch that as it'd be opening a whole other can of worms ;P


Again, as I said to you on another thread, I have found CBT, ACT, Zen, mindfulness practices, meditation and other forms of therapy, short term medications, effective (and far more relevant) in overcoming or sorting through past trauma/illness and more. I don't think Type is all that relevant, since I don't find the Enneagram appropriate for dealing with something as complex as these issues. If some general growth strategies help, sure, use them. 

So, I don't consider type or the Enneagram, by itself, instrumental in recovering from PDs, past trauma and so on. I've never used it that way. =) For some, if it helps, it may become a part of their psychospiritual arsenal, but it surely wouldn't be the primary means of overcoming what you mentioned.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Spades said:


> My wording leaves room for interpretation of what "core features" are and aren't.


I understand this, which is part why I felt it rather pointless to even try because where do I even begin with that? Avarice, holy omniscience, detachment, something else? I could write very deeply about anyone one of them, but all of them in a neat summary? Nay. And the fact I do relate to all the issues is what makes me very sure I am a 5, specifically because my understanding of them is _deep_.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> *
> Type 1:-*
> 
> Core features - demanding high internal standards (a moral perfectionism, if you will), self-righteous displacement of anger towards what appears to be legitimate targets, defense mechanism of reaction formation, compulsive focus on error and correction, the harshest superego (self-criticism), the attentional pattern of comparing self to others and sensitivity to criticism, esp when deemed unfair, strong emphasis on self-restraint, a solid belief in the rightness and superiority of their ethics/morals (even the most open minded egalitarian Ones are convinced of the superiority and rightness of their ethical position lol)
> ...


Lol with those stereotypes, I haven't cleaned my apartment in ages and my idea of order is more like systematic chaos. I'm not methodical as well, as I'm rather unorganized when I have to study or write reports for my classes, to the point that I finish that on the last minute. I agree with the part about finding neatness and order to be a waste of time, and I would add of energy as well. I also don't care about social norms, as they're illogical and pointless.

About the core aspects, I admit that I can get butthurt when someone criticizes my work without giving a solid argument, and the offense is even worse if I think that the work of that critic is crap compared with my own texts.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Oh, I just told you a few pages back that my mother is a 1w2 with NPD (I don't remember the variant), clinically diagnosed and multiple times confirmed.  I know a 7 with OCPD. And, I know a 3 with Avoidant Personality Disorder. I know this because she's a first cousin. I doubt she openly mentions it.


They could all be related to disintegration lines. 

1 > 4 Compensatory Narcissist personality with negativistic features.
3 > 9 Phobic Avoidant personality with dependent features
7 > 1 Puritanical Obsessive Compulsive personality with paranoid features *

* Reminds me of the discussion we had earlier about counter-gluttonous 7s, like the friend of mine who turned from a substance abusing partyhead into a compulsive health and fitness junkie. Or @Swordsman of Mana as a religious zealot.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

mimesis said:


> They could all be related to disintegration lines.
> 
> 1 > 4 Compensatory Narcissist personality with negativistic features.
> 3 > 9 Phobic Avoidant personality with dependent features
> ...


That's quite the stretch.
:laughing: LOFL

Fun theory, though. I am pretty sure there are plenty of people with PDs whose PDs align neither with their type nor their dis. lines. Btw, my mother is a phallic narcissist. I asked her earlier.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

some of these might be stereotypes, but since they get associated with the type i'll include them:

--protecting the weak, or the underdog, downtrodden, disadvantaged. nope, not my thing. 
--aggressive and angry *all the time*. this is largely a stereotype. i am angry and aggressive, and when i am angry and aggressive i'm really angry and aggressive, but most of the time i'm just relaxed and at ease. it's ironic that people who know me describe me as calm and peaceful; whereas a lot of the people who don't know me go by angry and aggressive. the angry and aggressive behavior gets all the limelight, because it's more memorable. and people who don't know me remember me by that. 
--vengeance, revenge. this is a stereotype. i read a good description where it was finally pointed out that type 8 ''revenge'' is not the usual strategic overreaction to something done to them, a la you hit me i'll burn your car down, or the like. it's more along the lines of evening the score in the large perspective in life; it's a more subtle thing, taking on the world and getting what you're out for. not a retaliation to anything specific done to you. it might have been Naranjo's text that pointed out this difference and i agree with that. i could never relate to the whole revenge aspect that gets thrown around ad infinitum. if i don't get the chance to react immediately, most of the time my anger has already subsided by the time to start pursuing any meaningful revenge. additionally it is very difficult for me to see myself as hurt by anything, and that directly counteracts the whole need for any vengeance at all. 
--oblivious to their own vulnerabilities and feelings. type 8 denies their weakness on the outside. i wouldn't show weakness to anyone i haven't connected with on a deep enough level. i need a certain level of established intimacy and trust with a person in order to be comfortable enough to open up, and even then i rarely open up completely. however i am very much in touch with my feelings and i don't deny my vulnerabilities to myself (except in rare cases). i have no problem with it either. it's all human nature. but don't mistake what you see on the outside as also applying to what's on the inside.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

My comments in red.


Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Sure. I'll give you two examples.
> *
> Type 1:-*
> 
> Core features - demanding high internal standards (a moral perfectionism, if you will - I don't find it necessarily has to do with morals but more with appropriate behavior), self-righteous displacement of anger towards what appears to be legitimate targets - anger, or more specifically criticism, is first and foremost directed at the self, defense mechanism of reaction formation - generalization open for interpretation, compulsive focus on error and correction - this seems core, the harshest superego (self-criticism) - in comparison to the other types, probably, the attentional pattern of comparing self to others and sensitivity to criticism - this is true of other types as well - the competitive type 3 and the envy of type 4 for example, esp when deemed unfair, strong emphasis on self-restraint, a solid belief in the rightness and superiority of their ethics/morals (even the most open minded egalitarian Ones are convinced of the superiority and rightness of their ethical position lol) - again, I wouldn't emphasize ethics as much as simply correctness - individuals of other types can be ethical, even type 7 or 8


Looks like what you refer to as core features and what I think of as core to a type is different. Here's how I would layer it from the core outward.

Core
Generalizations or Generalized Features (what you call core features)
Stereotypes



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I can't recall any author who significantly strays from this or at all.


Seems like core features for you is what the consensus of authors agree upon. Nothing wrong with that, just different from my interpretation. I don't find the core by reading authors but by listening to the types describe their internal experience and reality (which often doesn't fit the authors' descriptions exactly - unless possibly when that author happens to be that type).


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_enneathusiast_

I don't disagree with any of your additions. I would say morality (for some it takes religious connotations, so it's not very inclusive, though Naranjo seems to use the term moral perfectionism or maybe it was intentional goodness [concern with morals or good values]) or integrity/ correctness, the latter seems better worded. I wrote what came to my mind, off the top of my head, in no particular order. I am quite aware that anger (resentment) and self-criticism are first directed to the self. Thanks for noting something crucial I didn't adequately touch. 

And, obviously, some core features reflect general human tendencies (3s and even 7s are sensitive to criticism, so are most people, but for Ones it ties in with the superego being overwhelmed by self-criticism and hence finding external criticism even more taxing esp. if unfair, hence self-criticism and sensitivity to criticism are mentioned together). And, I wasn't implying that only Ones can be ethical.. Of course not. 

I'll address your interpretation next time. It's late here. You seem to be coming from the Narrative Tradition, there.

So, I'd love for you to illuminate what would be the "Core" of Type 1 in your interpretation.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> @_enneathusiast_
> So, I'd love for you to illuminate what would be the "Core" of Type 1 in your interpretation.


People who identify as type 1 and are familiar with the concept often refer to the "inner critic" - a constant monitoring for whether what they are doing is correct and appropriate. If someone doesn't have that core process at work then I'd say they're likely not type 1. Generalizations and stereotypes to me are simply possibilities that may arise from that inner process.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I wrote a long post including a list of 4 Stereotypes I don't relate to, so I will copy that here. 


* *





*Claims about 4s that I don’t relate to:*
*
I don’t seek a rescuer.*
_I am my own worst enemy and my own greatest hero. Hopelessly independent and responsible for my own actions. In a relationship I seek an equal; a mirror._

* *




A physicist once said to me, “I want to wake up next to someone and talk physics.” I, too, want to wake up next to someone inside our shared inner world. Intimacy is more than just talking about ideas. The deepest, truest bond is thought-children: influencing each other creatively. Being the phoenix who flies through his mind-palace; spotting castles shaped like his palace on my home planet. My projects can be mine and his can be his, but ideally, our ideas and dialogue would fuel each other and have a presence in each other’s imagination. Shared influence, shared inspiration. This is building a life or a home together. I don’t care about possessions. Creativity *is* my home. Dreams are my home.


*
My emotions are not crippling and I am not addicted to them.*
_I am rational and responsible, passionate about my passions, calm and in control in a crisis. I thrive on lust, rage, pain or anything real, but I don’t need constant “extreme emotional states.” _

* *




I take emotions as they come, delve into them alone and express them in my work. I have ample passion to fuel my creativity, but I rarely feel crippled by emotion. The exception is when I’m becoming vulnerable to a man. This is crippling. I don’t fall in love or fly in love. I _burn_. And I can’t control the power of my feelings. I am allergic to letting anyone control me, so I wall off from him and become outwardly timid but inwardly explosive. Once I get past that phase, and either get over him or learn to trust him, then I even out to my usual passionate but rational self.


*
I don’t edit myself to get validation or acceptance*.
_I’m human and I love to be appreciated as much as anyone. But I’d rather be rejected for what I am than loved for what I’m not. And what I am is up to me, only me. _

* *




I am a tigress; a cat who swims and fights on hind legs, hunts on my own terms. I am self-expressive, self-absorbed, even conceited. Take it or leave it. Most people don’t exist to me. I am respectful by default, regardless how others behave, because that’s who I am. I may not like you but I’ll be humane, and if you cross me, I will - with all due respect - train you not to do it again. I am flattered and pumped by adversaries, and love to argue, but it’s nearly impossible to hurt my feelings unless I let you. I don’t edit who I am for anybody - though I keep to myself when I’m vulnerable. I am usually single, and not for lack of options. Unless someone really pulls me, I prefer having freedom to focus on my personal passions. I don’t need a rescuer or a boyfriend to validate my self-worth, fill some lack or provide emotional fuel. Never did. Sex, adventures, flirting and cuddling are an indulgence but not a necessity, and they are dangerous and potentially lead to pain and turmoil. He better be worth it.


*
I don’t want to be someone else and would not switch lives with anyone if given the chance.*
_Mirroring is not wishing I were someone else. It is a way to get control by taking on the aspects I want for myself. At its most base it is a demented expression of a bond, a way to get love. Understanding someone so well that I can see the world through his eyes. This is my power, my control, my vampiric surrender. _

* *




I’m not perfect. I’m well aware. But I’m me, and I would not want to be anyone else. Show me a person who is perfect and I’ll be bored. Show me a person who is more than me at everything I am and better at everything I do, and I’ll explore their essence, learn their ways, and do it better. I might admire certain traits, and I might be incensed that someone crushes me at this or that, but would I give up the entirety of what I am to be that person? Nope.. haven’t encountered that person yet. Can’t imagine it. Even my fictional characters are beautifully and horridly flawed, just as I am. People ask me why I don’t do happy endings? My work is a mirror. Life is adversity; the strong face it head on and the weak get crushed.


*
I’m rarely depressed and I don’t feel sorry for myself.*
_I delve into my darkness, no matter how painful; express it in my work, process it, face it head-on, conquer it. I cherish this process and consider myself lucky to have the strength for it. I see myself as someone who has been to hell and back, and beats the odds senseless. _

* *




I can get quite hung up and emotional, even about things that happened years ago - though even at my worst, I cycle through various emotions, and I would hardly qualify as ‘depressed.’ I confess I can be extremely self-deprecating and implore myself for past mistakes I can no longer fix. This inspires me to dig deeper into myself to look my weakness in the eye, face it head on, and weed out the root of the problem to avoid a repeat or at least, if I can’t change it, to be self-aware.


*
I don’t think there is “something wrong with me.”*
_Not wrong, different. Everyone else is lost and I, alone, am found._

* *




I am apt to feel I was born in the wrong era on the wrong planet. Nobody speaks my language. If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound? [Yes, it does.] All



* *




the more reason to hold out for a partner who 'hears me' as I 'hear him.'
I have two states of mind on this topic. These are both quotes from poems I wrote in my teens.

1. "Everyone else is lost and I, alone, am found."
2. "Alone, we are All Øne."








I posted it in my blog - so if anyone wants to see the rest of the post.. 

http://personalitycafe.com/blogs/animal/what-4s-core-15257/


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> *Brainiac Narcissist with Power to Control World in Secret*: 5w4














:kitteh:


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

(I know this thread is a couple of weeks old, but I've been meaning to comment on it for a while and didn't have the time when it was active, but I think it's a good discussion and worth bringing back.)



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> If you don't relate to core features of a type, you're not that type. The only other option is that you're misunderstanding said type or haven't yet uncovered your core cognitive distortions. Either way, you need to reflect more, and if you still don't relate to core features of a type, you're off-base for sure.


Ok, so let me get this straight. What you're saying, if I'm understanding you correctly, is that everyone in the world is going to relate to all of the core features of at least one type. Anyone who thinks there isn't a type for which they relate to all the core features is either 1) misunderstanding the typology, or 2) lacking in self-awareness. 3) There simply isn't a core type that exactly fits them, is not an option. If that's what you think, you are making a very big claim, which you can't possibly prove, and if you're going to state that everyone has a type, and all of the core features of that type, with no exceptions, you're going to have to support that claim.

I agree with what @Spades said about best fit type. I think it's much more realistic to see Enneagram typing as being about finding the category that fits you best, even if it turns out there are one or two "core features" you don't relate to, rather than going round and round in circles trying to figure out which list of "core features" is an exact match. The issue with the latter method is that you're probably going to end up assigning quite a few people a type that doesn't have any core features that don't fit them, but also doesn't have any traits/motivations/whatever that they relate all that strongly to, beyond an "everybody does it" sort of level.

Any purpose for which you could use the Enneagram (personal growth, learning about psychology, improving your understanding of/relationships with the people around you,) would be better served by finding a "best fit type" that, in some sense, gets at the kind of person you are, rather than insisting on everyone having a type where there are no core features that don't fit.

I'm not really saying anything I haven't said before, but I haven't found a satisfactory answer to this, and you're not the only person who insists that everyone must have all the core features of their type, so I think it's worth bringing up again.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

For my own benefit, what are these "core features" for each type?
Depending on what they are defined to be, maybe it _is_ obvious that a person can't be that type without said core feature. 
I'm just unfamiliar with the terminology.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Arf!
1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)?

7w? Sx/So

2. How sure are you?
Pretty fucking sure

3. List some *stereotypes* you don't relate to.
. Being an entertainer
. Being Materialstic
. Being Happy all the fucking time
. Always fleeing from emotions(I supress them but they do come up)
. Being generally positive
4. List some *core features* (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.
. Escapism; I can be and usually am very responsible for myself
. Narcissism; I can be arrogant and in my own natural state I usually don't give a shit about anyone, but I do give back to the people I love, and sometimes just random people because I feel like it

5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)
Core motivations: The desire to experience life passionately(or to be stimulated), Defensive Mechanisms: Distractions, My bigget one was what a read from a source explaining that 7s can think very highly of themselves like a 3, but they don't feel the need to prove it like a 3. Especially 7w8s they can think of themselves as incredibly powerful or super-human as an escape from reality just to keep themselves from feeling bad about things.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

gravity always wins said:


> (I know this thread is a couple of weeks old, but I've been meaning to comment on it for a while and didn't have the time when it was active, but I think it's a good discussion and worth bringing back.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're beating a dead horse. I am uninterested in the resurrection of a dead discussion, asking for the repetition of shit I've addressed already. Surely, if you'd read my extended discussions with Spades and others, you'd get your answer.


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## stargazing grasshopper (Oct 25, 2013)

Stereotypes or Core Features You Don't Relate to With Your Core Type

1. What is your core type (with wing and instinct)? 
1w9 (so,sp,sx)

2. How sure are you? 
75%+ sure but I was initially typed INTJ 1w2. I've never been professionally typed & there exists the chance of error when being typed by psyche student & self typed

3. List some *stereotypes* you don't relate to. 
Forcing moral beliefs upon others, I'm rarely idealistic, the only time honored traditions that I wish to preserve are justice, liberty, Bill of Rights protection from tyrannical government & the american family.


4. List some *core features* (from reliable sources) you don't relate to.
I'm not overly self critical, I don't expect perfection of myself or others because people are human & likely to err. 
I'm kind of a neat & organized individual but I'm not OC

5. If you don't relate to core features, what makes you sure of your type? (Optional)
My type usually fits myself but I'm more than the basic descriptions. I identify more with the description "rational realist" than with "uptight Idealist".


*Keep suggestions on other peoples' types to a minimum here*. Feel free to PM people if you think they aren't the type they suggest. 
None.​


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> You're beating a dead horse. I am uninterested in the resurrection of a dead discussion, asking for the repetition of shit I've addressed already. Surely, if you'd read my extended discussions with Spades and others, you'd get your answer.


My post was actually about something you hadn't addressed in that discussion. You talked about how people might relate to types other than their core, and how type descriptions may be biased towards certain cultures/MBTI types/ETC. I was addressing the claim that if you don't relate to all the core features/cognitive distortions of a type, you're not that type. However, if you are no longer interested in this topic, I won't bother you about it again.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

gravity always wins said:


> My post was actually about something you hadn't addressed in that discussion. You talked about how people might relate to types other than their core, and how type descriptions may be biased towards certain cultures/MBTI types/ETC. I was addressing the claim that if you don't relate to all the core features/cognitive distortions of a type, you're not that type. However, if you are no longer interested in this topic, I won't bother you about it again.


I did address it. Good to see you, btw! Just saw your sig. I am usually more willing to elaborate on or re-explain stuff for people I have interacted with, at length, on the forum.  Surely, I don't owe anyone a summary of shit multiple times re-hashed on a thread. 

I did talk about the commonalities in core features ( a couple of core points repeatedly show up in nearly all my readings [and I have read a shit ton], and more than one defense mechanism is attributed to a type) across authors. I also talked about the differences between core features and sweeping generalizations etc, how contradicting the core feature of a type is a red flag and so on.
It's no 'big claim'. It reflects the dominant paradigm in enneagram scholarship, and I offered plenty of reasoning for the same, so your whole 'big claim..unsupported crap' was pretty damn overblown. I even addressed the best-fit point. 

Re- read all my posts on the thread, and you should find your answer because it's in there, if you still haven't. 

And yes, I have long moved on from this discussion.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> It's no 'big claim'. It reflects the dominant paradigm in enneagram scholarship, and I offered plenty of reasoning for the same, so your whole 'big claim..unsupported crap' was pretty damn overblown. I even addressed the best-fit point.


It's still a big claim, even if that's what every single Enneagram author says. It just makes it a claim that most people in the enneagram community are repeating, rather than being one that only you are making. My point was not about what the Enneagram authors say or whether your views are consistent with generally accepted theory; it was about how well the theory applies to real people.

Anyway, I think we're just going to end up talking past each other, and if you're not really interested anymore, there's probably not much point in continuing this discussion.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

gravity always wins said:


> It's still a big claim, even if that's what every single Enneagram author says. It just makes it a claim that most people in the enneagram community are repeating, rather than being one that only you are making. My point was not about what the Enneagram authors say or whether your views are consistent with generally accepted theory; it was about how well the theory applies to real people.
> 
> Anyway, I think we're just going to end up talking past each other, and if you're not really interested anymore, there's probably not much point in continuing this discussion.


My point wasn't "i am right because authors say so" or "this is some shining radical claim on my end". I explained why I found it convincing, personally. And, I don't see any issues with the theory applying to real people. Of course, it fits some more neatly than it does others. I fall in the latter camp, myself. When it doesn't, it has to do with gaps in self-understanding, theoretical understanding, a very complex life history (trauma etc.), psychopathology and so on. I even talked about my own example.

So, there are instincts, connection with harmonic triads etc.,wings, dis/integration lines, security points, life history and absence or presence of psychopathology. All of this combines to give a very comprehensive picture in ways that applies to 'real people' regardless of difficulties 
encountered, within the Enneagram framework anyway, which is by no means flawless. I am also all for people learning from the growth strategies of all 9 types, and if you can narrow it down to 2 or whatever types, and find both useful to your personal growth, more power to you! I don't think it's necessary to go fuckin nuts trying to zone in on a type in haste, even if I am currently convinced that, within the Enneagram framework again, people have a core type that exists at birth, with health levels being affected by life experiences. 

All of this Enneagram stuffz is not indispensable to personal growth, as I've said earlier as well. So, learn what you can, challenge what doesn't convince you, take what helps, discard the rest. 

And yes, I don't quite see much of a point in furthering this discussion either. That will likely be my last word to you on this lol.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't relate to the mania present in a lot of 7 descriptions. I'm one of the most chill mofos you will ever meet


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