# Serious, cautious ExxP?!



## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?

I'm too serious compared to the other ExxPs I've seen here. I do joke around and not take things seriously when I probably should, BUT overall I think I spend more time thinking of "dark" things than other EPs. I'm not as carefree, I'm more obsessive, but engaging the outside world is fun/interesting/energizing, etc. I just seem to be plagued by some things EPs appear free of. I can usually solve things and move on; things that would put a serious dent in my friends, don't really get to me or phase me. Except for one big problem that I've had for about 3 years now... I can't seem to solve it and it's causing a "cloud of darkness" hanging over me all the damn time. I think that cloud makes me appear more serious, and less like an EP.

It also makes me appear more F-like, because the problem has started to cause emotional problems now...

I'm also relatively cautious for an EP. Perhaps it's my sp-first stacking.

2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?

I want to solve my cloud of darkness so I can progress to other things. Other than that I have difficulty narrowing it down to one main thing I want out of life. But I think I want to improve the world, make large-scale contributions to a field of interest, at a system level. I wouldn't say I want to help people, it's not what motivates me, but of course if my contributions *do* help people that's great.

3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.

Working on things I enjoy. What other people would consider work, I consider play, IF I enjoy what I'm doing. Working on an interesting project, especially if I'm collaborating with others that are not stupid and will consider my suggestions instead of continuing to do stupid things when I have a better alternative.

4) What makes you feel inferior?

When people think I'm uncreative, non-curious, or stupid. A good example is with university courses I don't find interesting. I'm so disengaged and my professors/TAs think I'm stupid because I don't participate, hand in assignments on time, etc. and non-curious because I seldom think about the course content. Of course I'm not going to think about it if I don't find it interesting, but the professors think that I'm not curious. They don't realize that I am VERY curious about things I find interesting. Their misconception actually bothers me a little. I'm in 4th year so my classes are so small everyone knows me by name.

5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)

What contributes best to my future or the world's future, i.e. what leads me towards my goals the best. Or what allows me to keep multiple possible futures open for myself. But I know that closing doors is sometimes necessary and I will do that if I need to. I can be very decisive if I know what is best for me, and sometimes, I know.

6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?

Emphasis on the process rather than the outcome. Ideally I would just do what's interesting and leave the rest, but in university I care somewhat about my grades... so I'll do unpleasant work for the sake of grades. So if a high grade is the outcome, I want to have control. If it's a personal project, then I just want to enjoy and be interested in the process of it.

7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?

In general, I like intellectually stimulating conversation that is really engaging. My memory is really bad!

8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)

Theorize. I don't learn through action and I don't see experience as a good teacher. I trust my perceptions and ideas; I don't need to experience something to know it.

As I said, my memory sucks, so I pretty much can't memorize things. Which is why memorization-based courses are so difficult for me.

9) How organized do you to think of yourself as?

I'm ok. I know where things are (usually) and there aren't any rodents living in my apartment so it can't be too bad.

10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?

Former, by far.

11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?

I don't seek harmony, but if I accidentally find it, it's thanks to the latter.

12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?

I speak before thinking and blurt out half-formed thoughts or things I shouldn't say. I'm ok with both one-on-one and group. I get louder and less focused in groups, so one-on-one can be better to clarify my thoughts.

13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speaks more than words?

I look before leaping. I think words can speak as loudly as actions.

14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?

My friends are really annoying and I would still consider watching the show later to go out with them. Tough call.

15) How do you act when you're stressed out?

I start caring what other people think of me way more than usual, I believe bad things will never change, I become afraid to move forward (when normally forward is the only way I think), I get flooded with bad memories from the past (that I could never recall consciously), I say horrible things on purpose to inflict maximal damage on other people

16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?

When they place too much emphasis on the practical, without enough unrestrained thought. People who won't even entertain thoughts that don't have practical ends, people who refuse to speculate, people who only deal with known facts, people who are afraid of the unknown, people who dislike the new just because it's new, people who reject new ideas without any consideration just because the ideas are new

17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?

Politics, philosophy, psychology (not only MBTI lol), technology, cats

18) What kind of things do pay the least attention to in your life

Cleanliness of my environment, the time, physical state

19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? ? What would your friends never say about your personality ?

They always say I'm "unpredictable", but these are SJs so I don't know what unpredictable means to them. I think they are looking at each action by itself and not seeing the overall pattern behind them. They perceive me as studious, and in a way I'm always reading/writing/talking about things I find interesting, even if those things are not related to university studies.

They would never say I'm boring, needy, clingy, warm, strict, or uptight.

20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing? 

Take a walk with people I like, see some new places/stores/restaurants/etc., watch movies, work on projects I like


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## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

You must have considered ENTP, doesn't it ring a bell?


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## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

I was gonna say ENTP as well.

Also SP's are stereotypically the carefree ones, not all EP's.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> 11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?
> 
> I don't seek harmony, but if I accidentally find it, it's thanks to the latter.
> 
> What contributes best to my future or the world's future, i.e. what leads me towards my goals the best. Or what allows me to keep multiple possible futures open for myself. But I know that closing doors is sometimes necessary and I will do that if I need to. I can be very decisive if I know what is best for me, and sometimes, I know.


Sounds like Fi, but not robust Fi. It seems more like you have an awareness of what is important to you or what you value relative to the needs of everyone else. A lot of people who come on here looking to be typed that have a Fe preference are often really ostentatious with it. They spend a lot of time talking about the opinions of others, or the things in their upbringing that shaped them as if they were out of their control. You seem somewhat self-directed.

I think you are an ENFP who leans really heavily on Ne and Te (maybe too heavily). I think the reason you have a hard time identifying yourself based on the normal ENFP archetypes is because they are based heavily around Ne+Fi in their descriptions, but I get the sense that your value system isn't as robust as is often thought for someone with Fi in the auxiliary, (Si is clearly your inferior for both ENTP and ENFP) so you lean heavily on your extraverted functions. This isn't uncommon for extraverts (but somewhat uncharacteristic of ENFP). 

ENTP would be mean you had a preference for Fe in the tertiary, that's really the biggest noticeable difference. ENTP is much more aware of the influences of the value systems around him (though sometimes not as elegant with the use of Fe as someone who has it higher in their function order). But a Ne+Te ENFP would probably look a lot like an ENTP in person.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

@_LiquidLight_ 

Thanks. I was just thinking I might be Ne/Fi. I don't see Te at all, so if I am an ENFP (which is very possible) I'd have to be a regular one with Ne/Fi and much weaker Te. I'm 21, so I shouldn't have much tertiary development either way.

I'm also quite introverted, behaviourally speaking. So a dominant-tertiary loop seems unlikely.

But you are on to something. I don't have a value system, I've never really had one... my "morals" if you can call them that can be summed up by the phrase: "As long as you harm no one, do as you please." and maybe the golden rule though there are flaws to that. (And then I could get into a debate with myself over what "harm" actually means...)

I lack awareness of what is important to me, but I do know what I want. For example I know that I don't want my leg cut off, so I'll make decisions that help me avoid that fate. ETA: Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, I know what I _don't _want. But often a certainty that one does not want a certain consequence is enough to make a solid decision.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

babblingbrook said:


> You must have considered ENTP, doesn't it ring a bell?


 It does. I have considered all the types, though.


themartyparade said:


> I was gonna say ENTP as well. Also SP's are stereotypically the carefree ones, not all EP's.


 I guess. Though I was told last time that I was not an EP because I seemed too... contained? I don't know. Anyway, thanks.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

I think you are pretty clearly Ne/Fi if this is your philosophy:



> "As long as you harm no one, do as you please."


This is almost antithetical to Fe.

The thing about the loops and you obviously know your stuff is that its really not Ne+Te so much as Ne/(weakFi) alternating with Already Weak Tertiary Te/Even weaker (barely registering) Si. It looks like Ne+Te but is probably more complex than that and probably occurs over a long period of time. Here's an interesting quote:



> If Fi is, for some reason, poorly developed, NeTe may create an unpredictable and volatile personality torn between desire for admiration of his creative expressions and a need to uphold and enforce objective order on the world around him. One of the best examples of "NeTe loop" that I can think of is Steve Carrell's character on the American version of The Office--deathly desirous of the approval and adulation of his employees (Ne), he snaps abruptly into Te mode and begins barking orders and criticisms whenever his attempts to reach out for personal connections (Fi) are rejected. As a defense mechanism against feelings of being personally attacked, Te takes the opportunity to remind everyone of his objectively enforceable authority ("The Boss") in order to make others feel as belittled as he does by what he sees as their deliberate and inhumane rejection of the value of his personal identity. Later, Ne reminds him that he's not going to get anyone to like him with that sort of behavior, and Fi feels bad for upsetting people--it knows all too well what that feels like--but he's not getting the kind of validation that an ENFP thrives on, so his Fi is forced to hide behind an angry, exaggerated Te mask.
> 
> The NeFe loop ENTP exudes tremendous false confidence, but in reality has very few internal principles by which to check the opinions and perceptions of others against his own value system. He does lip service to a philosophy of integrity of independent thought, but in reality is a slave to the perceptions and expectations of others. He appears confident because he recognizes that confidence tends to favorably color the perceptions of others--or at the very least, provoke some sort of reaction, which will provide some form of feedback. This desire for novel reactions often combines with weak Fe's rudimentary awareness of what sorts of approaches will upset or offend people: the drive to experiment with people's reactions is there, but it lacks the nuance to grasp the real implications of what it's doing. The result is the classic ENTP question: "Why does everyone get upset so easily?" In reality, this is only partially true: often, it is the ENTP's own Fe mistakes that result in her interpersonal difficulties.


Which sounds more plausible to you?


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

LiquidLight said:


> I think you are pretty clearly Ne/Fi if this is your philosophy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know a number of (S)FJs who use that same quote as justification for same-sex marriage, polyamory, body modification and stuff like that. These SFJs are personally very much against these things but they use that phrase to support it for other people. And obviously they are all higher Fe users.

Anyway, I think tertiary Fe is a different animal to auxiliary or dominant Fe (FJ Fe) because Fe judgment in TPs is superceded by Ti judgment. I'd need a very good _reason_ to conclude that I could stop two (or however many) consenting adults, of any gender, from enjoying themselves. Whether that's Ti or Fi, I don't know. I'm not even sure it can be matched to a function. I have seen several types voice this philosophy, though it seems especially popular among Ps (even TPs, who have Fe) and young SJs (both T and F).



> The thing about the loops and you obviously know your stuff is that its really *not Ne+Te so much as Ne/(weakFi) alternating with Already Weak Tertiary Te/Even weaker (barely registering) Si. It looks like Ne+Te* but is probably more complex than that and probably occurs over a long period of time. Here's an interesting quote:


It _doesn't_ look like NeTe, that's exactly my point. As I said, I can't see the Te at all. Perhaps it's just Ne off the rails, mostly on its own apart from other functions. 

I'll respond to your quotes in a second; first, I want to talk about my "hollow" phases without having read the quotes. My hollow phases are relatively infrequent, but they are the times I look inside and find nothing. When I've been drawn too far out, probably become too scattered with too many new ideas I'm pursuing. I find myself becoming disturbingly impressionable by other people. I start to believe what they say about me with very little analysis of my own*; I internalize their opinions without thinking, "is this actually true?" Usually I get out of the phases because I realize what's going on, re-introvert myself temporarily to sift through information and come to conclusions for myself (as to avoid letting other people's conclusions about me supplant my own judgment).

*Instant messaging my ESFJ friend right now: he says he's like this _all the time_! I'm not like that very much, only if I get into a hollow phase.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Well ESFJ would be like that if they felt there was some conflict between their Fe judgment and Si internal perception. In both cases, yours and your friends what is happening is a weak auxiliary (as we've basically alluded to). What you describe would be consistent with extraverts with a dominant perception function but a weak subjective auxiliary judgment function. This is the essence of why the loop theory would exist in the first place. (I'm not convinced you're looping but just hanging out in dom/tert land too much). 

In order to maintain balanced cognition we need to exercise both perception and have a mechanism for giving those perceptions value judgments. What you describe is basically an inability to provide subjective judgment (Fi or Ti) to outside influences. Let's say you are ENTP and your Ti, for whatever reason, isn't doing its job as the filter or valve between Ne and Fe, then you would be overrun by external influences, leaving only inferior Si as the only measurement of individual subjectivity. The only functioning subjective evaluation of what was 'you' versus what was the world is left to a very weak inferior function that we're not comfortable with anyway. Talk about a stressor. What you describe is a cognition where in your 'hollow space' your own subjective value judgments (Fi or Ti) are curiously absent or not as robust as one might expect (I don't think the aux can be completely absent). By the way you sound clearly ENTP from your last post.



> I find myself becoming disturbingly impressionable by other people. I start to believe what they say about me with very little analysis of my own*; I internalize their opinions without thinking, "is this actually true?"


This sounds like you are saying Ne+Fe overload, and Ti isn't doing its job effectively to balance these unmitigated outside influences.

When this happens to introverts the opposite occurs. Introverts with a weak aux, become overly subjective and create a complex where they begin not to trust anything outside of their own mental faculties. They become nearly incapable of reasoning that their conclusions might not be empirically accurate, because their extraverted functions are in some way causing or contributing to stress. So they begin to lean on their more comfortable introverted functions, which of course makes the problem worse (creating the loop) because its precisely that objective external data that keeps the mind from becoming too entrenched it its own constructs.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm picking up on an ESTP/ISTP vibe here. I don't see a strong Ne/Ni, nothing Dom for sure. I'm sensing a lot of Se/Si, also Fe, not Fi.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> I'm picking up on an ESTP/ISTP vibe here. I don't see a strong Ne/Ni, nothing Dom for sure. I'm sensing a lot of Se/Si, also Fe, not Fi.


This is a good point. I know you know your functions really well, and I assume you wouldn't erroneously categorize yourself for Ne. But Se can look a lot like Ne (really they do very similar things as information gathering functions, its just Ne expands to possibility where Se is constantly ascertaining 'what is.'

I however don't see any signs of inferior-Ni with you (or Ni at all). And problems with memorization, especially of visual stimuli probably would seemingly come from an inferior subjective sensing function not a dominant one.


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## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

LiquidLight said:


> This sounds like you are saying Ne+Fe overload, and Ti isn't doing its job effectively to balance these unmitigated outside influences.
> 
> When this happens to introverts the opposite occurs. Introverts with a weak aux, become overly subjective and create a complex where they begin not to trust anything outside of their own mental faculties. They become nearly incapable of reasoning that their conclusions might not be empirically accurate, because their extraverted functions are in some way causing or contributing to stress. So they begin to lean on their more comfortable introverted functions, which of course makes the problem worse (creating the loop) because its precisely that objective external data that keeps the mind from becoming too entrenched it its own constructs.


 I second this, I also believe you use Ne, Ti and Fe.

" I think they are looking at each action by itself and not seeing the overall pattern behind them. They perceive me as studious, and in a way I'm always reading/writing/talking about things I find interesting, even if those things are not related to university studies."
Suggests Ne. XNXP

"I think I want to improve the world, make large-scale contributions to a field of interest, at a system level. I wouldn't say I want to help people, it's not what motivates me, but of course if my contributions *do* help people that's great."
Suggests Ne Ti Fe, XNTP

"What contributes best to my future or the world's future, i.e. what leads me towards my goals the best. Or what allows me to keep multiple possible futures open for myself. But I know that closing doors is sometimes necessary and I will do that if I need to."
Suggests Ne

"My memory is really bad!"
Suggests inferior Si

"You try to understand the principles behind the ideas"
Suggests Ne, perhaps in comination with Ti

"My friends are really annoying"
I don't see an NF saying this.

"When they place too much emphasis on the practical, without enough unrestrained thought. People who won't even entertain thoughts that don't have practical ends, people who refuse to speculate, people who only deal with known facts, people who are afraid of the unknown, people who dislike the new just because it's new, people who reject new ideas without any consideration just because the ideas are new"
Suggests high use of Ne

"Theorize. I don't learn through action and I don't see experience as a good teacher. I trust my perceptions and ideas; I don't need to experience something to know it."
Ne over Se.

you enjoy talking about "Politics, philosophy, psychology (not only MBTI lol), technology, cats"
cats?
Anyway, these things suggest XNTP for me, especially since you put politics in there.

ENTP


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

LiquidLight said:


> Well ESFJ would be like that if they felt there was some conflict between their Fe judgment and Si internal perception. In both cases, yours and your friends what is happening is a weak auxiliary (as we've basically alluded to). What you describe would be consistent with extraverts with a dominant perception function but a weak subjective auxiliary judgment function. This is the essence of why the loop theory would exist in the first place. (I'm not convinced you're looping but just hanging out in dom/tert land too much).


This is likely. It's interesting too that this seems to happen with typology forums. I take in others' input about my type, put it through my own analysis, and then accept it if it fits. In the past I have just taken in other people's typings without my own analysis, which I think corresponds to dom/tert land.



> In order to maintain balanced cognition we need to exercise both perception and have a mechanism for giving those perceptions value judgments. What you describe is basically an inability to provide subjective judgment (Fi or Ti) to outside influences. Let's say you are ENTP and your Ti, for whatever reason, isn't doing its job as the filter or valve between Ne and Fe, then you would be overrun by external influences, leaving only inferior Si as the only measurement of individual subjectivity. The only functioning subjective evaluation of what was 'you' versus what was the world is left to a very weak inferior function that we're not comfortable with anyway. Talk about a stressor. What you describe is a cognition where in your 'hollow space' your own subjective value judgments (Fi or Ti) are curiously absent or not as robust as one might expect (I don't think the aux can be completely absent). By the way you sound clearly ENTP from your last post.


This is pretty much what I figured was going on. No filter. Great analysis!

But in general I tend to mirror other people whether I think about it or not. That happens even when Ti judgment is not absent...



> This sounds like you are saying Ne+Fe overload, and Ti isn't doing its job effectively to balance these unmitigated outside influences.


Yeah. It could also be Se+Fe couldn't it? I do think my middle functions are Ti/Fe though.

I guess there is no point responding to those quotes now lol...



MuChApArAdOx said:


> I'm picking up on an ESTP/ISTP vibe here. I don't see a strong Ne/Ni, nothing Dom for sure. I'm sensing a lot of Se/Si, also Fe, not Fi.





LiquidLight said:


> This is a good point. I know you know your functions really well, and I assume you wouldn't erroneously categorize yourself for Ne. But Se can look a lot like Ne (really they do very similar things as information gathering functions, its just Ne expands to possibility where Se is constantly ascertaining 'what is.'
> 
> I however don't see any signs of inferior-Ni with you (or Ni at all). And problems with memorization, especially of visual stimuli probably would seemingly come from an inferior subjective sensing function not a dominant one.


 Interesting. As I was making this thread I was actually doubting N/S more than T/F. So if either of you (or anyone else) see signs of strong Se I would like to know where you see that. I don't think I have much Si, except in that negative way usually attributed to the inferior and 5-8 shadow functions. I do not have conscious control of Si. So I could be Si inferior (as has been said already) or Se dom.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

babblingbrook said:


> I second this, I also believe you use Ne, Ti and Fe.
> 
> " I think they are looking at each action by itself and not seeing the overall pattern behind them. They perceive me as studious, and in a way I'm always reading/writing/talking about things I find interesting, even if those things are not related to university studies."
> Suggests Ne. XNXP
> ...


I agree with most of your points... not all of them (e.g. the bad memory one). And yes, cats, I like them. lol.

I would think some subset of all types like to discuss politics. haha


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

I am quite introverted for an ENFP, and I my Te is pretty well-developed. I'm more likely to be cool than emotional when I'm uncomfortable in a situation. But I'm an ENFP, nevertheless. And I like politics and cats haha.



> They would never say I'm boring, needy, clingy, warm, strict, or uptight.


The lack of warmth suggests ENTP. They're fun and enthusiastic, but I wouldn't call them warm


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

I see only ENTP in your description. Also, are you sure about your enneagram being 7? I really don't see that at all in you.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

@Wilson , in your ( intro )....i actually saw things in there that i related with, mostly the darker side. I'm not your typical ENFP, as i do have a darker side also. Many of the ENFP here are sunny side up most times. That can describe me at times, although it doesn't make up everything about who i am as an ENFP. I have quite an intense personality, and very serious compared with other ENFP here. I relate very well with cautious too. People who know me IRL would say i'm dark, serious, cautious and private. I'm very happy with life as long as people don't try to push me around, manipulate, or control me. I can get quite sour if any or all of those apply.

I don't know what your type is really. Maybe you could start by narrowing it down . Spend time reading the cognitive functions. For me i thought it came together easier that way. Although i've always tested ENFP, it wasn't until i confirmed how i actually function that gave me a firm answer. XXXX are just letters. They don't mean much unless you can recognize the order of the functions and how you apply them to reality. Good luck in your search.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> Interesting. As I was making this thread I was actually doubting N/S more than T/F. So if either of you (or anyone else) see signs of strong Se I would like to know where you see that. I don't think I have much Si, except in that negative way usually attributed to the inferior and 5-8 shadow functions. I do not have conscious control of Si. So I could be Si inferior (as has been said already) or Se dom.


Well you don't come off as that "grab life by the horns" and experience everything you can ESTP stereotype. I don't see all the vivid detail recall that would be characteristic of a Se-dom. Remember a Se-dom exists in the world of the visceral and physical, so the central conflict (of a Se-dom with weak Ti) is probably what might appear to be recklessness or status seeking. I would surmise ESTP would be inclined to war between their hero persona of being someone exciting against the value judgments of those in his social circle. An ESTP faced with a dilemma here (if the Fe value judgments conflicted with something Se wanted to experience) would probably retreat back into their hero persona (Se) as a way of sorting it out, by either becoming physically expressive, impracticality (especially with weak Ti), playing games of "anything you can do I can do better", etc. It helps to explain why looping ESTP's often come across as bullies (if Ti was working as it should, it should be able to balance Se+Fe moral dilemmas against what is logical).

So I still think you are ENTP.


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## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

Wilson said:


> I agree with most of your points... not all of them (e.g. the bad memory one). And yes, cats, I like them. lol.
> 
> I would think some subset of all types like to discuss politics. haha


 I'm not fully sure if bad memory is related to inferior Si per se, but I think it must have some correlation. And I like cats too.

It's just the pattern you put up there that made me think XNTP. I'm not saying discussing politics is type related.

There are some famous ENTP philosophers like Michel Foucault, Jacques Lacan and Slavoj Zizek (although I think he might be more of a type 6w5 or maybe even a type 8w7 sx/so) whom I find very interesting. There are lots of videos of Zizek on youtube.


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

I also agree that you sound more ENTP... and just to toss it out there, some say that Ti/Fe can imitate Te, and Fe/Ti can imitate Fi:



SyndiCat said:


> *Irrational Function Imitation:*
> - Fi works as individual values, but, along with Te, create common values. They create the essence of Fe; the illusion of Fe. In other words, Fi and Te together becomes a common understanding (Fe) to the representative.
> 
> - Fe works as common values, but, along with Ti, create individual values. They create the essence of Fi; the illusion of Fi. In other words, Fe and Ti together becomes an individual understanding (Fi) to the representative.
> ...


So that might be something to consider as well. Good luck! =]


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

TreeBob said:


> I see only ENTP in your description. Also, are you sure about your enneagram being 7? I really don't see that at all in you.


I relate more to 7 than any other enneagram type, and for that matter any MBTI type. haha. But if you see another type then by all means, please comment.

I seem more 3-ish the more Fe-heavy I get, and more 7-ish the more I am myself. So if @LiquidLight is right that I spend too much time in dom-tert land (and I think he is) I might seem more 3-ish.

Anyway, thanks for your input. I guess since you are an ESTP you'd be able to recognize one of your own. 



MuChApArAdOx said:


> @_Wilson_ , in your ( intro )....i actually saw things in there that i related with, mostly the darker side. I'm not your typical ENFP, as i do have a darker side also. Many of the ENFP here are sunny side up most times. That can describe me at times, although it doesn't make up everything about who i am as an ENFP. I have quite an intense personality, and very serious compared with other ENFP here. I relate very well with cautious too. People who know me IRL would say i'm dark, serious, cautious and private. I'm very happy with life as long as people don't try to push me around, manipulate, or control me. I can get quite sour if any or all of those apply.
> 
> I don't know what your type is really. Maybe you could start by narrowing it down . Spend time reading the cognitive functions. For me i thought it came together easier that way. Although i've always tested ENFP, it wasn't until i confirmed how i actually function that gave me a firm answer. XXXX are just letters. They don't mean much unless you can recognize the order of the functions and how you apply them to reality. Good luck in your search.


Now that you mention it, people would say I'm private too. I think that's because I can't easily share my thoughts with most people. Sometimes I don't have words, I have to try a few times to get the words to match my thoughts precisely enough. Writing is easier thanks to the whole backspace thing.  When I'm talking to people, depending on how they think, they may get a totally different meaning to what I meant. I hate being unclear.

I've been reading about the functions since May 2010. I tested as INTJ initially (on some online test) and after I read about the functions I quickly related to Ne and not Ni, so I changed my type to INTP. The first time I read an Ne description, I thought everyone was like that, but then I realized that many of my friends did not show evidence of that thought pattern. A few months later I realized I might be Ne-dom. That was all before I joined this forum though. I would agree that the letters have limited meaning on their own; they are just short hand for the functions after all.

Thanks.



LiquidLight said:


> Well you don't come off as that "grab life by the horns" and experience everything you can ESTP stereotype. I don't see all the vivid detail recall that would be characteristic of a Se-dom. Remember a Se-dom exists in the world of the visceral and physical, so the central conflict (of a Se-dom with weak Ti) is probably what might appear to be recklessness or status seeking. I would surmise ESTP would be inclined to war between their hero persona of being someone exciting against the value judgments of those in his social circle. An ESTP faced with a dilemma here (if the Fe value judgments conflicted with something Se wanted to experience) would probably retreat back into their hero persona (Se) as a way of sorting it out, by either becoming physically expressive, impracticality (especially with weak Ti), playing games of "anything you can do I can do better", etc. It helps to explain why looping ESTP's often come across as bullies (if Ti was working as it should, it should be able to balance Se+Fe moral dilemmas against what is logical).
> 
> So I still think you are ENTP.


Interesting, you make a good case. I'm not interested in being exciting for its own sake, and I can't relate to your description of the Se+Fe loop conflict. So maybe I'm Ne-dom after all.

I'm going to read up on how I might develop Ti, that will be of benefit either way.


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## Agent Blackout (Mar 1, 2012)

Based on what you wrote, I was thinking ENxP. More info would make for better accuracy.

Also, if you're sure about your enneagram tritype, 8's seem to have a connection to Te. You could consider that possibility. 

Reading up on cognitive functions in Jung's work "Psychological Types" would probably help. It should be noted that Jung only considered dominant functions and not aux. functions, so only 8 descriptions would be found. 

Important  *verbatim* excerpts could be found here:
Te - Jung 
Ti - Jung
Fe - Jung
Fi - Jung
Se - Jung
Si - Jung
Ne - Jung
Ni - Jung


Jungian Functions at-a-glance: Chart of Function Descriptions

Hope this helps!


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks. I've read the descriptions in Psychological Types at Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10. I do relate _somewhat_ to the extraverted intuitive type, but I've never related particularly well to any of them. I relate better to (for example) the pages in the Lenore Thomson exegesis wiki (which I realize aren't Lenore's actual descriptions, but others' expansions/interpretations of them. I don't have her book but I plan to get it). Thanks to the various function posts on this forum, I am very sure I'm Ti-Fe. Maybe Ne-dominant, but I might be a self-deluded ESP instead. My dominant function is invisible, so how can I be sure it's not Se? I wore the ENTP label for a long time but honestly, a lot of things just seem off with that type. ENFP seems even more off. ISTP/INTP has inferior Fe, so that's no good. ESTP? Maybe. I don't relate to Se much and I don't have that SP "presence" but whatever...it might fit.


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## Agent Blackout (Mar 1, 2012)

ketchup said:


> Thanks. I've read the descriptions in Psychological Types at Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10. I do relate _somewhat_ to the extraverted intuitive type, but I've never related particularly well to any of them. I relate better to (for example) the pages in the Lenore Thomson exegesis wiki (which I realize aren't Lenore's actual descriptions, but others' expansions/interpretations of them. I don't have her book but I plan to get it). Thanks to the various function posts on this forum, I am very sure I'm Ti-Fe. Maybe Ne-dominant, but I might be a self-deluded ESP instead. My dominant function is invisible, so how can I be sure it's not Se? I wore the ENTP label for a long time but honestly, a lot of things just seem off with that type. ENFP seems even more off. ISTP/INTP has inferior Fe, so that's no good. ESTP? Maybe. I don't relate to Se much and I don't have that SP "presence" but whatever...it might fit.


Dude, thanks for the link! Way better than mine! Loool

Additionally, there are threads in the Cognitive Functions sections entitled "You know you're using *insert function* when..."
Personal experiences and descriptions/applications might prove useful.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Agent Blackout said:


> Dude, thanks for the link! Way better than mine! Loool
> 
> Additionally, there are threads in the Cognitive Functions sections entitled "You know you're using *insert function* when..."
> Personal experiences and descriptions/applications might prove useful.


Ha, that's my go-to link! I have it bookmarked. lol

I've read those threads, but they seem rather inaccurate, and there is a lot of bleed over. Like I think a while ago in the Ti thread there were some ISTPs saying it was blending with Ne and they couldn't relate to it. Because most of the TPs posting in there were NTPs and it's hard to separate the dom from the aux I guess.


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## Agent Blackout (Mar 1, 2012)

@_ketchup_ actually, yeah... I remember that, lol

Meh. I tried here... lol


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

ENTP. You're so focused on a million possibilities, it's not even funny (e.g. maybe I'm this type, no, now maybe I'm this type, etc. highly unrelated types you seem to think you are - if you had a strong S preference, you would probably be paying close attention to the factual differences between them, which you clearly aren't, I'm sorry to say). You don't strike me as an F type either...I'm not getting much in the way of evaluation.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> ENTP. You're so focused on a million possibilities, it's not even funny (e.g. maybe I'm this type, no, now maybe I'm this type, etc. highly unrelated types you seem to think you are - if you had a strong S preference, you would probably be paying close attention to the factual differences between them, which you clearly aren't, I'm sorry to say). You don't strike me as an F type either...I'm not getting much in the way of evaluation.


Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

You know what's funny, I become less factual as I get more stressed. Finding my type doesn't cause me significant stress, but it's one of the few things I get neurotic about, because I can't really rely on my own judgement due to possibly deceiving myself, being biased and wanting to be some types and not others, etc. My default is to rely on my own judgement, but in this matter, I have to consider others' input to such a great degree. Do you think it might actually point to inferior N if more stress makes me _less_ factual?


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> You know what's funny, I become less factual as I get more stressed.


This would probably be a sign of you resisting an inferior S function. I can relate. When I'm stressed, focusing on the sensory gets too overwhelming.


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## Jabberbroccoli (Mar 19, 2011)

You, my dear squishy red condiment- are an EntP.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

My dominant function is invisible. lol. I really can't see any Ne at all, I used to think I could relate to descriptions of it but if I'm being honest, I can't, really. Can one really be Ne-dominant without relating to Ne?! I don't relate to Se either, though.

On the whole inferior Si thing, I wrote some stuff about it but I didn't post it... I am not sure if what I am attributing to inferior Si is actually related to it at all.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

*quote from another thread*



ketchup said:


> "Just knowing" depends on sufficient understanding of the function theory, and personally I thought I was influenced by confirmation bias and such.
> 
> I can't choose to turn Ne off, it's just always there. When I get tired, my thoughts get even more weird than usual, rather than slowing down. I sometimes come up with things I wouldn't have generated when less tired. I think really quickly and it seems like I can't keep up with my own thoughts, though that seems to make no sense. Most of the time it's not like I'm really even "thinking" with Ne...
> 
> ...


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

> 1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?
> 
> I'm too serious compared to the other ExxPs I've seen here. I do joke around and not take things seriously when I probably should, BUT overall I think I spend more time thinking of "dark" things than other EPs. I'm not as carefree, I'm more obsessive, but engaging the outside world is fun/interesting/energizing, etc. I just seem to be plagued by some things EPs appear free of. I can usually solve things and move on; things that would put a serious dent in my friends, don't really get to me or phase me. *Except for one big problem that I've had for about 3 years now... I can't seem to solve it and it's causing a "cloud of darkness" hanging over me all the damn time. I think that cloud makes me appear more serious, and less like an EP.
> 
> ...


^ I wrote that in my original post (the first post of this thread) and reading it again 4 years later is chilling. I have since resolved the issue, as I hoped I would, and I was exactly right about the "cloud" hanging over me and making me serious, obsessive, and not as carefree. When I was finally able to fix the issue, I felt like I had come back from the dead. Everything else I said in the OP and in this thread still rings true, however. My personality in general hasn't changed.

I also graduated from college (university) and got a job, so I've been working. My job hasn't required massive personality suppression or anything, but it does focus on rote, repetitive, detailed tasks at times (which I don't like, and suck at). Work as opposed to college has changed some of my specific answers to those questions, but the general idea/concept is still the same.

Also great news, I seriously worked on my Ti development after the earlier discussion in this thread. I no longer have the "hollow phases" I described. I believe I haven't been in dom-tert land for years! So pointing out to me that I was in dom-tert land was incredibly helpful.

***

As for type, I still don't know what I am. I am pretty sure Ti/Fe are my middle functions one way or another, which leaves

Pe Ti Fe Pi "E?TP"
or
Pi Fe Ti Pe "I?FJ"

just because they seem to "work together" well enough and I don't have nearly enough Fe rejection for it to be my inferior. I have no Ti rejection at all, though, so that would suggest it's not my tertiary either.

I know I'm a P-dom as well, but that's already entailed by the above.

Of the above types, I think SiFe "ISFJ" is not likely because I don't have inferior Ne...just, no.

I think SeTi "ESTP" or NeTi "ENTP" is most likely, but I still don't know whether I'm Se or Ne dominant!

BTW I'm putting the MBTI types in "quotes" like that because I think they're just stand-ins for the Jungian function attitude orders, not really "types" apart from that.

Still looking for feedback. Thanks.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

So I just realized that I can count on one hand all the PHYSICAL things that I have created or fixed in my life using my own two hands. I have very little sensory engagement with the world, for lack of a better way to put it. I have a hard time with hobbies that are physical or requiring of coordination. I've never had an interest in these pursuits, and as a result, am uncoordinated (never practiced, so why should it be otherwise?). (ETA: I have fixed like computer things and spreadsheets/documents and stuff... I mean like physical things.)




ketchup said:


> Yeah I honestly thought Emilie was an ENFP for years. After that asylum interview I was blinded by the Ne, which even as an ESFJ she obviously does possess in spades.
> 
> Like you, I would draw out the sketch, and very quickly drop it like a hot potato in favor of the next idea. Obviously, this isn't a great way to live, haha, but it's basically how I've lived my entire life to date. Each idea gets dropped as soon as the Next Exciting Thing comes along.
> 
> On the other hand, obviously some Ne doms are able to follow through and finish things. And I've finished things too... Things have to get done after all, and it's good to develop the auxiliary function...but probably not something so physical/sensory as the angel wings. (Although I should add that I'm not 100% sure I'm an Ne type)


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Is it possible to have a weak dominant? Like a weak aux or tert, except with the dominant? Does that make sense? Because I could have a weak dominant. I don't know.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

ketchup said:


> When they place too much emphasis on the practical, without enough unrestrained thought. People who won't even entertain thoughts that don't have practical ends, people who refuse to speculate, people who only deal with known facts, people who are afraid of the unknown, people who dislike the new just because it's new, people who reject new ideas without any consideration just because the ideas are new


So why exactly are you considering ESTP?

Se users are the ones who typically "won't even entertain thoughts that don't have practical ends" and you outlined right here how you don't like them.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

^^ Well, it's not that I don't like _them_, it's that that particular behavior annoys me. And I've known JiSe types (Ti or Fi doms) who are perfectly willing to have hours-long theoretical discussions. I don't know if maybe Se doms might be different.

_ETA:_ My brother is actually TiSe, and he has no particular issue entertaining ideas that don't have a practical application. Admittedly he's far more practical-minded than I am.


TBH with you, I've completely lost sight of facts about (a) typology/type theories and (b) myself. If I really stop and look at the "evidence" that I have, I have much more evidence for Ne dominance than Se dominance. If I stop and consider what I already know about the cognitive functions, I have hard time seeing myself as an Se dom. But, I don't look at the evidence for long, before I start speculating about how I could be another type. (And that possibility is more interesting to me than reality -- there you go.) If I stop and actually think about my type, comparing what I know about myself to what I know about type theory, NeTi seems much more likely than SeTi.

In other words, the way I'm approaching this endeavor of typing myself is itself indicative of Ne dominance!


I just rediscovered this gem from JungyesMBTIno and I'm doubled over laughing at myself.



JungyesMBTIno said:


> ENTP: Like INFPs, ENTPs tend to mistype a ton like no other, but somehow, I suspect that it's just them getting enthusiastic about experimentation or if their aux Ti is rather repressed, they tend to loose sight of objectivity rather easily and get carried away with their "Ne-Fe" impressions of the types or want to "transcend the system" (I've seen this more than once, LOL). I've seen them mistype as some really far-fetched, dissimilar types to their own, as well as similar ones, the most common being the following: INTPs (if they get too fixated on the I/E axis and internet claims about Ne doms being "introverted extroverts" or whatever), INTJs, if ENTP stereotypes bother them too much (stereotypes should have little to no bearing on objectively determining one's type anyhow), ENFPs, if they know little about cognitive functions and mistake unexpectedly strong tert. Fe usage for aux. Fi (I've seen countless XNTPs claim to use "Fi" if they consider themselves rebellious against social norms, which isn't true at all, actually - it's just them uniting by using Fe to rebel against social norms or whatever negative stereotypes they cast against Fe), ESTPs, if they don't understand Ne and Se differences, INFPs for some reason that I can't grasp at all, any high N type basically, etc.



Aaaand after all that? I'm still not sure.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

*I don't know WTF I am doing*

lol this is ridiculous. I'm considering a type that has dominant Ne (ENTP), one that has inferior Ne (ISFJ), and one that has 8th function Ne (ESTP). A type that has dominant Se (ESTP), another that has inferior Se (INFJ), and another that has 8th function Se (ENTP). Same for Ni (INFJ/ESTP/ISFJ) and Si (ISFJ/ENTP/INFJ). I'm all over the place, despite having read Jung, Lenore, Berens, and some others. I can't help but laugh at myself. I don't know WTF I am doing any more haha. I might also be in a dom-tert loop and/or have a repressed auxiliary. I KNOW that it doesn't make sense to be simultaneously considering all of these types, but I can make them all make sense...so why not keep them all in play?


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## Adena (May 14, 2014)

ketchup said:


> lol this is ridiculous. I'm considering a type that has dominant Ne (ENTP), one that has inferior Ne (ISFJ), and one that has 8th function Ne (ESTP). A type that has dominant Se (ESTP), another that has inferior Se (INFJ), and another that has 8th function Se (ENTP). Same for Ni (INFJ/ESTP/ISFJ) and Si (ISFJ/ENTP/INFJ). I'm all over the place, despite having read Jung, Lenore, Berens, and some others. I can't help but laugh at myself. I don't know WTF I am doing any more haha. I might also be in a dom-tert loop and/or have a repressed auxiliary. I KNOW that it doesn't make sense to be simultaneously considering all of these types, but I can make them all make sense...so why not keep them all in play?


I think you're just a perceiving dominant (either Se, Si, Ni or Ne), and it might've caused you confusion. Honestly, the perceiving functions are the hardest, especially Ni/Si (it took me a while to differentiate between the two, and when I finally did it became clear I was an SJ). 

Before I will analyze your first questionnaire (it is probably the least biased), let me just say that there's a theory saying that dominant function comes to us naturally and we don't notice it because it's so natural, while we are quite aware of our aux function. Which one do you relate more- Ti, Fi, Te, or Fe?

Now we'll begin:



> I want to solve my cloud of darkness so I can progress to other things. Other than that I have difficulty narrowing it down to one main thing I want out of life. But I think I want to improve the world, make large-scale contributions to a field of interest, at a system level. I wouldn't say I want to help people, it's not what motivates me, but of course if my contributions *do* help people that's great.


I think that's Ne/Fi. Your words seem very Ne- "cloud of darkness" and stuff. You have trouble narrowing things down seems Ne>Ni. I'd say lower Te, "I want to finish solving my own issues (Fi) before moving into something else (i.e doing more stuff and getting things done, Te).



> Working on things I enjoy. What other people would consider work, I consider play, IF I enjoy what I'm doing. Working on an interesting project, especially if I'm collaborating with others that are not stupid and will consider my suggestions instead of continuing to do stupid things when I have a better alternative.


Fi and Te, not sure in what order. Thing YOU enjoy (Fi). Also Ne- if there's a better alternative, let's go for it!



> When people think I'm uncreative, non-curious, or stupid. A good example is with university courses I don't find interesting. I'm so disengaged and my professors/TAs think I'm stupid because I don't participate, hand in assignments on time, etc. and non-curious because I seldom think about the course content. Of course I'm not going to think about it if I don't find it interesting, but the professors think that I'm not curious. They don't realize that I am VERY curious about things I find interesting. Their misconception actually bothers me a little. I'm in 4th year so my classes are so small everyone knows me by name.


Maybe Fi? "This doesn't interest me, I'm not going to take part."



> What contributes best to my future or the world's future, i.e. what leads me towards my goals the best. Or what allows me to keep multiple possible futures open for myself. But I know that closing doors is sometimes necessary and I will do that if I need to. I can be very decisive if I know what is best for me, and sometimes, I know.


I almost said Ni, but I think that's actually Te. Decisive and goal oriented. Ne for wanting to keep multiple futures open.



> Emphasis on the process rather than the outcome. Ideally I would just do what's interesting and leave the rest, but in university I care somewhat about my grades... so I'll do unpleasant work for the sake of grades. So if a high grade is the outcome, I want to have control. If it's a personal project, then I just want to enjoy and be interested in the process of it.


Maybe just a college student? xD



> In general, I like intellectually stimulating conversation that is really engaging. My memory is really bad!


Either. I'm an SJ and I like stimulating conversation and at times my memory is really bad as well.



> Theorize. I don't learn through action and I don't see experience as a good teacher. I trust my perceptions and ideas; I don't need to experience something to know it.


Probably intuition?



> Former, by far.


That is, looking for information that supports the new idea? As in, wanting proof? As in Te?



> I don't seek harmony, but if I accidentally find it, it's thanks to the latter.


By being yourself? Yep, you're a Fi and Te user.



> I speak before thinking and blurt out half-formed thoughts or things I shouldn't say. I'm ok with both one-on-one and group. I get louder and less focused in groups, so one-on-one can be better to clarify my thoughts.


Extrovert.



> I start caring what other people think of me way more than usual, I believe bad things will never change, I become afraid to move forward (when normally forward is the only way I think), I get flooded with bad memories from the past (that I could never recall consciously), I say horrible things on purpose to inflict maximal damage on other people


That sounds like lower Si and maybe a misuse of Fe.



> When they place too much emphasis on the practical, without enough unrestrained thought. People who won't even entertain thoughts that don't have practical ends, people who refuse to speculate, people who only deal with known facts, people who are afraid of the unknown, people who dislike the new just because it's new, people who reject new ideas without any consideration just because the ideas are new


I'm not sure if that's you being biased and really hating on the SJ stereotype in order to get an N result, or honest and in that case I wonder why did you consider anything but a high Ne user.



> They always say I'm "unpredictable", but these are SJs so I don't know what unpredictable means to them. I think they are looking at each action by itself and not seeing the overall pattern behind them. They perceive me as studious, and in a way I'm always reading/writing/talking about things I find interesting, even if those things are not related to university studies.
> 
> They would never say I'm boring, needy, clingy, warm, strict, or uptight.


You're probably just curious, any type can be that.

As for the "would never say" segment, I'd say you're not a high Je user (needy, clingy, warm = Fe, boring, strict, uptight = Te, according to stereotypes).

To conclude, I'd say ENFP and that makes sense considering they are often considered to be the most introverted extroverted type. Fi is very private on its own, and Ne needs introspection because it's basically an exploding supernova of ideas that's working all the time.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

No, I'm not an Fi-Te user, that was already established earlier in the thread. I appreciate your feedback though. I do think I'm going in circles in large part because I'm perceiving dominant, lol. ETA: I relate far more to Ti-Fe, as I said in my video I don't relate to Fi-Te at all actually, and yeah I absolutely think I am Perceiving dominant (likely Pe). Also, TBH, that first post is very biased and I already knew a lot about type when I wrote it. Also also, I was quite depressed at that time, a lot of the emotional content wouldn't be there now, and I have a metric fuckton more Fe now, lol. I'm 25 and there is no doubt I've seen substantial Fe development in the last 3-4 years - just in the age range one would expect from a tertiary.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

myst91 said:


> OK!


http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temp...05-lenore-thomsons-extraverted-intuition.html
^^ I was referring to parts of that one. I'm about to do a closer read of the whole thing, so we'll see if I still relate to it after that, haha.
EDIT: On second reading, large parts of that description are too behavioral and/or overstated (overblown - too positive). But yeah, more or less, it still fits. Funny enough the parts that fit best are about the unrealized potential and other things that are almost exactly what Jung said in Chapter X of Psychological Types!



> Well. For one, do the other people all keep improving shit just for the novelty?


........no. lol. Honestly, they don't, my coworkers do not compulsively improve things, especially not at the pace that I do... the constant improvement just doesn't happen with other people. It's actually kind of hard for me to process that they don't think of potential improvements all the time...and that's part of the difficulty...



> So you don't relate to Fe-dom.
> 
> OK then that leaves ENxP.
> 
> How do you relate to Fe over Fi in particular and Ti over Te?


Oh, I have no doubt that I'm Ti-Fe or Fe-Ti, actually that might be the only thing I can claim 100%. I cannot relate at all to Fi or Te, but can relate a lot to both Ti and Fe. My Ti is more positive, Fe is more negative, so I'm likely Ti > Fe but I'd be open to the IFJs where they're the middle functions...but I've ruled out both IFJ types for other reasons (don't relate to inferior Ne as discussed, and also cannot see any Ni in myself at all, so I'm unlikely to be an NJ)...which leaves only the four TPs, and I ruled out inferior Fe, which leaves only the two ETPs...and we ruled out inferior Ni and dominant Se...so....(ha, look, judgment!).



> Actually yes I can consider both ENFx types by default as I take all 8 functions into account when typing. The other 4 are *not* nonexistent. ENxx means high Ne either way. But I said your Ne seems rather consciously used so it's more ENxP than anything else.


Ok, my bad then. That's certainly different.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

ketchup said:


> http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temp...05-lenore-thomsons-extraverted-intuition.html
> ^^ I was referring to parts of that one. I'm about to do a closer read of the whole thing, so we'll see if I still relate to it after that, haha.
> EDIT: On second reading, large parts of that description are too behavioral and/or overstated (overblown - too positive). But yeah, more or less, it still fits. Funny enough the parts that fit best are about the unrealized potential and other things that are almost exactly what Jung said in Chapter X of Psychological Types!


That sounds relevant enough then.

I mean if you relate to the core of the function as Jung described it that does sound fine. 

I do have a bit of a problem with lenore thomson's stuff though due to her assumption that a function can either be right brained or left brained. I believe she was utterly wrong with that assumption.




> ........no. lol. Honestly, they don't, my coworkers do not compulsively improve things, especially not at the pace that I do... the constant improvement just doesn't happen with other people. It's actually kind of hard for me to process that they don't think of potential improvements all the time...and that's part of the difficulty...


Lol I'm the opposite, it's hard for me to understand that some people are like you. I just see what's in front of me :shrug




> Oh, I have no doubt that I'm Ti-Fe or Fe-Ti, actually that might be the only thing I can claim 100%. I cannot relate at all to Fi or Te, but can relate a lot to both Ti and Fe.


Yes but how do you relate to Ti/Fe? Be a bit more specific.




> My Ti is more positive, Fe is more negative, so I'm likely Ti > Fe but I'd be open to the IFJs where they're the middle functions...but I've ruled out both IFJ types for other reasons (don't relate to inferior Ne as discussed, and also cannot see any Ni in myself at all, so I'm unlikely to be an NJ)...which leaves only the four TPs, and I ruled out inferior Fe, which leaves only the two ETPs...and we ruled out inferior Ni and dominant Se...so....(ha, look, judgment!).


Right so ENTP!


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## penny lane (Nov 21, 2011)

ENTP is probably the right typing. I have read that dom Ne will question their type more.You might not the fully aware how much you use Ne that's common with the dom function we use it naturally .I don't think it's always big ideas it's multiple ideas and what is possible no matter how out there it might seem. Patterns and connections.You also relate to inferior Si.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

myst91 said:


> That sounds relevant enough then.
> 
> I mean if you relate to the core of the function as Jung described it that does sound fine.
> 
> I do have a bit of a problem with lenore thomson's stuff though due to her assumption that a function can either be right brained or left brained. I believe she was utterly wrong with that assumption.


Yes I do relate to the core of the function.... Sometimes I think I can relate to anything, but then I read for example the Ni or Se types and I'm like "???" - it's like they're describing an entirely foreign universe!

EDIT: By "relate to anything" I mean that I can interpret anything any way, really. I've joked that I can convince myself I'm a cow; so why couldn't I convince myself I'm an ENTP or any other type when I'm actually a totally different type? What if I have ADHD-PI and that's affecting my self-typing? What if I don't have ADHD-PI and I'm actually an Ne-dom which is mimicking ADHD-PI? What if I have a sensory issue, i.e. something physically wrong with my senses or sense perceptions, that is making me relatively unaware of the environment and disinclined to action? (Admittedly this would not explain the presence of Ne/inferior Si and lack of Se/inferior Ni.) What if I have a memory problem that is leading me to view higher Si as lower Si? Not totally sure how that would work but it could be? The other thing I've noticed is that I'm quite sleep deprived (I'm usually not but for like the last month or so) and I think this is kind of withering my auxiliary and tertiary functions because they take more energy than the dominant, so I try to avoid "using" them while sleep deprived? And I just read something about the orientation of the auxiliary being the same as the dominant according to Jung? I don't have Te! And all this is without even getting into my own possible biases. I'd like to think I've eradicated them by this point in my type journey, but that would be like saying I have no assumptions and I've questioned all of them, which is a work in progress, not completed (and perhaps never completed). Anyway, oops, I kind of wandered off there...What I meant is that I can interpret a description of any function so "metaphorically", as a metaphor for something so distant from what is described, or else I can distill it down to such a general "core", that I can relate to it even if it doesn't literally apply to me. I can so drastically interpret facts/statements/reality as something very different...and I never know which interpretations the author intended...(I really struggled with multiple choice questions for this reason lol)

I don't know where that assumption comes from, maybe Nardi's brain stuff? I do think that Pe and Ji are "holistic" which she attributes to right-brained. That said, I think Dario Nardi found a Christmas tree pattern associated with Ne, which means it's all over the brain, not just the right hemisphere.




> Lol I'm the opposite, it's hard for me to understand that some people are like you. I just see what's in front of me :shrug


Well it takes all kinds 




> Yes but how do you relate to Ti/Fe? Be a bit more specific.


Then it would probably help if your question were more specific 

Ok, well, not working off any particular Ti description and just going off my overall understanding of Ti...

I see Ti as seeking complete understanding...ultimately trying to find one universal/absolute truth, the unifying 'theory of everything' and constantly working towards that. Whereas I see Te as more of a 'proximal' truth for practical use, e.g. various techniques/drugs used in medicine (no doubt it's useful, I just don't see it as seeking fundamentals the way that Ti does).

I've learned to argue (as in logical argument, not screaming match) by reference to studies, cases, and other external "objective" facts for school, work, things like that. But my lifelong preference has been to argue from "first principles", for lack of a better term... Try to derive something from nearly nothing, if I can. When building my own arguments and miniature theories/systems (not about personality type), they may or may not have any connection to objective reality, and they certainly don't have practical use - it's all about internal consistency and drilling deep/dissecting it and developing a theory that is fundamentally sound. Basically a castle in the sky so to speak - has structural integrity but not necessarily any foundation. Practicality/usefulness has never really been a prime concern for me. It's at best an afterthought. When evaluating new information I'm focused almost exclusively on if it makes sense to me, with little focus on external facts as above.

I have a framework of interlinking concepts - concepts that I originated for myself (even if other people also originated the same concept, I originated it separately)... and I guess I kind of 'process' new information that I take in into this framework.

As for Fe (almost forgot about Fe haha) it's more or less what I told you in your thread. I can post more but I don't want to go on and on.




> Right so ENTP!


For now, yeah.


---



penny lane said:


> ENTP is probably the right typing. I have read that dom Ne will question their type more.You might not the fully aware how much you use Ne that's common with the dom function we use it naturally .I don't think it's always big ideas it's multiple ideas and what is possible no matter how out there it might seem. Patterns and connections.You also relate to inferior Si.


Thanks. I've heard that about dominant Ne too, I think Ne can basically find 'loopholes' as to why I'm a different type, which is basically what's been happening. But I think many of the users on here keep questioning their types, and they're not all Ne-dominants  But yeah, the dominant function blindness issue is a common one. That's why some people type based on the inferior, I guess.

Can't believe you read through all/most of this thread. I really owe you one. If you have a type-me thread and are still undecided, let me know, I'm glad to help.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

ketchup said:


> Yes I do relate to the core of the function.... Sometimes I think I can relate to anything, but then I read for example the Ni or Se types and I'm like "???" - it's like they're describing an entirely foreign universe!


OK. Ne dominance for you is not a question at all. 100% sure on it.




> EDIT: By "relate to anything" I mean that I can interpret anything any way, really. I've joked that I can convince myself I'm a cow; so why couldn't I convince myself I'm an ENTP or any other type when I'm actually a totally different type? What if I have ADHD-PI and that's affecting my self-typing? What if I don't have ADHD-PI and I'm actually an Ne-dom which is mimicking ADHD-PI? What if I have a sensory issue, i.e. something physically wrong with my senses or sense perceptions, that is making me relatively unaware of the environment and disinclined to action? (Admittedly this would not explain the presence of Ne/inferior Si and lack of Se/inferior Ni.) What if I have a memory problem that is leading me to view higher Si as lower Si? Not totally sure how that would work but it could be?


Eh most of these possibilities are unlikely. Overall though, if you try to check things against the ENTP typing in future, you'll see anyway how well the concept fits. This is my approach, anyway  Instead of throwing around whatif's 




> The other thing I've noticed is that I'm quite sleep deprived (I'm usually not but for like the last month or so) and I think this is kind of withering my auxiliary and tertiary functions because they take more energy than the dominant, so I try to avoid "using" them while sleep deprived? And I just read something about the orientation of the auxiliary being the same as the dominant according to Jung?


I think there is two strong auxiliaries actually yeah - this is my own view of things though -, of the same function with both the I and E attitudes or orientations, and the auxiliary that has the same orientation as the dominant has to remain as an unconscious support for it. The one that has the opposite orientation can be conscious, it seems, creating an ambivert essentially. The tertiary has the same orientation as the dominant and again it can go together with the dominant function while being slightly subconscious. You can view it as a kind of auxiliary too.

Anyway what matters the most is the dominant-inferior function dynamics. The auxiliaries can be a bit differently structured between different individuals. Say someone is an ENTP with strong Fe and another person is an ENTP too with strong Ti instead. Both are Ne-doms with Si-inf where T is also better differentiated than F overall and that's the only two things that matter for type. I don't know but it may be possible that someone's just a Ne-dom with no clear difference between T and F auxiliaries in terms of differentiation.




> I don't have Te! And all this is without even getting into my own possible biases. I'd like to think I've eradicated them by this point in my type journey, but that would be like saying I have no assumptions and I've questioned all of them, which is a work in progress, not completed (and perhaps never completed).


Never  As to the part in parentheses.




> Anyway, oops, I kind of wandered off there...What I meant is that I can interpret a description of any function so "metaphorically", as a metaphor for something so distant from what is described, or else I can distill it down to such a general "core", that I can relate to it even if it doesn't literally apply to me. I can so drastically interpret facts/statements/reality as something very different...and I never know which interpretations the author intended...(I really struggled with multiple choice questions for this reason lol)


Yes I can see that. Now it is your own decision whether you want to stick with the original theory or go off on tangents.




> I don't know where that assumption comes from, maybe Nardi's brain stuff? I do think that Pe and Ji are "holistic" which she attributes to right-brained. That said, I think Dario Nardi found a Christmas tree pattern associated with Ne, which means it's all over the brain, not just the right hemisphere.


No idea, I don't think it's from Nardi though as his studies do not support the idea of that hemisphere based theory whatsoever. Btw according to Nardi's research, Se is also "all over" and Ni as well. And T functions are in both hemispheres. And probably the F ones too, I don't remember.

But yeah, I noticed that Lenore Thomson was wrong when I noticed that my own Ti has both a holistic right brained component and a left brained detail oriented component.




> Well it takes all kinds


What do you mean?




> Then it would probably help if your question were more specific


I don't see how to make it more specific  But you answered alright already so no worries




> Ok, well, not working off any particular Ti description and just going off my overall understanding of Ti...


Yeah most of that's Ti alright. The way you describe it, you are also going to have to be ILE in socionics  ILE-Ne subtype probably.




> I have a framework of interlinking concepts - concepts that I originated for myself (even if other people also originated the same concept, I originated it separately)... and I guess I kind of 'process' new information that I take in into this framework.


This one may have a bit of Ne in it but yeah I see what you mean here. I also have frameworks and my own concepts.




> As for Fe (almost forgot about Fe haha) it's more or less what I told you in your thread. I can post more but I don't want to go on and on.


Say a bit more though please




> > Right so ENTP!
> 
> 
> For now, yeah.


Damnit, you. If you are not Ne-dom then you might as well ditch the whole theory at this point :crazy:


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

myst91 said:


> OK. Ne dominance for you is not a question at all. 100% sure on it.


You may be, but I'm far from sure. Ne-dominance doesn't make any sense to me. I can see Ne in myself, in glimpses, but not enough to be dominant.

EDIT: So yeah, I've basically checked out of typing myself for the time being. There is no way in hell I'm Ne-dominant, I've just managed to fool myself (and apparently about 20 other people in the course of this thread) into thinking I am. And yet, all the other types (other than ENTP) have been ruled out too for solid reasons, per the judgment applied a few posts ago. I don't know WTF is going on, I am so confused. I've either grossly misunderstood the theory (likely) or it's all BS (unlikely - I think it has some nuggets of truth, anyway) but regardless, at this point, I'm happy to keep conversing with anyone who posts, but don't feel obligated to post. Because I really don't know what's left to gain from this thread, for me or for anyone else.




> Eh most of these possibilities are unlikely. Overall though, if you try to check things against the ENTP typing in future, you'll see anyway how well the concept fits. This is my approach, anyway  Instead of throwing around whatif's


They're not that unlikely. I've considered ADHD-PI for years, and I've been suspecting I have sensory issues due to my reactions to loud noises (like fireworks - I jump out of my skin).




> I think there is two strong auxiliaries actually yeah - this is my own view of things though -, of the same function with both the I and E attitudes or orientations, and the auxiliary that has the same orientation as the dominant has to remain as an unconscious support for it. The one that has the opposite orientation can be conscious, it seems, creating an ambivert essentially. The tertiary has the same orientation as the dominant and again it can go together with the dominant function while being slightly subconscious. You can view it as a kind of auxiliary too.
> 
> Anyway what matters the most is the dominant-inferior function dynamics. The auxiliaries can be a bit differently structured between different individuals. Say someone is an ENTP with strong Fe and another person is an ENTP too with strong Ti instead. Both are Ne-doms with Si-inf where T is also better differentiated than F overall and that's the only two things that matter for type. I don't know but it may be possible that someone's just a Ne-dom with no clear difference between T and F auxiliaries in terms of differentiation.


Interesting...I haven't read enough to know about any of this. But yes, I agree on the dominant/inferior dynamics being the most significant. 




> Never  As to the part in parentheses.


Yes I think that's part of Ti too actually, always questioning assumptions, especially assumptions I'm not even aware I've made. Never complete, I agree.




> Yes I can see that. Now it is your own decision whether you want to stick with the original theory or go off on tangents.


Which of the 100 ways to interpret it is the correct interpretation? The exact issue is that I can interpret the same sentence 100 ways, and have no idea which the author intended. That's not a "decision".




> No idea, I don't think it's from Nardi though as his studies do not support the idea of that hemisphere based theory whatsoever. Btw according to Nardi's research, Se is also "all over" and Ni as well. And T functions are in both hemispheres. And probably the F ones too, I don't remember.
> 
> But yeah, I noticed that Lenore Thomson was wrong when I noticed that my own Ti has both a holistic right brained component and a left brained detail oriented component.


Yeah I gotta do some more research on Nardi, I do remember the T and F being all over actually. So yeah, looks like Lenore just went "holistic = right brain" or something. Ti in particular is definitely a mix.




> What do you mean?


Oh I just meant that it takes all kinds/'types' of people to make the world go around.




> Yeah most of that's Ti alright. The way you describe it, you are also going to have to be ILE in socionics  ILE-Ne subtype probably.


Hmmm ok, I don't know anything about socionics. I can't even figure out Jung/functions lol.




> This one may have a bit of Ne in it but yeah I see what you mean here. I also have frameworks and my own concepts.


I can see why "interlinked" sounds like Ne but I think this really is Ti, after all how can a function seek the ultimate truth as Ti does, the unifying 'theory of everything', if it doesn't interlink everything?




> Say a bit more though please


Ok, well, I'm going to have a harder time with Fe...

At the time I wrote the OP of this thread (4 years ago), I had no real understanding of what "harmony" meant. I didn't seek harmony, at least not knowingly. But these days, I actually seek harmony sometimes and want to harmonize over shared values. Even when I have substantial theoretical and philosophical disagreements with other people/organizations, even when their positions lack any kind of logical argumentation, theoretical framework, or internal consistency... I am willing to overlook it and work alongside them to further causes that we both support, i.e. to further values that we share.

This is basically why I now get along much, much better with my xxFJ (likely Fe-dom) mother than I did when I was younger. I harmonize with her over our shared values, I smooth things out deliberately, despite her near-complete lack of logical argumentation or any kind of logical framework whatsoever.

Admittedly, I do still thrive off some amount of conflict and antagonism. I'm definitely fine with conflict in a way that most FJs I know are not; I don't usually need to smooth things over.

I think I still have some negative Fe, too. It's not like an inferior, but as I think I mentioned, I turn the Fe around and use it to emotionally wound people sometimes, and I do it semi-consciously (sometimes I don't catch myself until after I've already started doing it). And this tends to happen more under stress, when I'm just 'normal' I don't tend to do this.



> Damnit, you. If you are not Ne-dom then you might as well ditch the whole theory at this point :crazy:


I'm on the verge of that, actually. The more I read the less I understand, everything seems inconsistent with everything else, everything is open to so many interpretations that I can't determine what the author intended, etc etc etc. So many problems. Add in confirmation bias and I'm not sure I can type myself at all.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

ketchup said:


> You may be, but I'm far from sure. Ne-dominance doesn't make any sense to me. I can see Ne in myself, in glimpses, but not enough to be dominant.


Now what happened, what's the reasoning for this?




> They're not that unlikely. I've considered ADHD-PI for years, and I've been suspecting I have sensory issues due to my reactions to loud noises (like fireworks - I jump out of my skin).


I didn't say *all* of them were unlikely to be true. However, people with high Ne often have ADHD and the sensory issues may come with the territory of high Ne and ADHD and all that. Also the reverse is true, ADHD people often have high Ne, as far as I know.




> Which of the 100 ways to interpret it is the correct interpretation? The exact issue is that I can interpret the same sentence 100 ways, and have no idea which the author intended. That's not a "decision".


Ah.. time to introduce a bit of Ti then.




> I can see why "interlinked" sounds like Ne but I think this really is Ti, after all how can a function seek the ultimate truth as Ti does, the unifying 'theory of everything', if it doesn't interlink everything?


Yes that was the Ne-ish part. Ti isn't simply about interlinking but about logically making sense of things and thus seeing/creating actually logical links.




> Ok, well, I'm going to have a harder time with Fe...


OK that was a fine description and it makes sense. 




> Even when I have substantial theoretical and philosophical disagreements with other people/organizations, even when their positions lack any kind of logical argumentation, theoretical framework, or internal consistency... I am willing to overlook it and work alongside them to further causes that we both support, i.e. to further values that we share.


Well for some goal it can be worth it to me too to do that while ignoring the illogical shit 




> This is basically why I now get along much, much better with my xxFJ (likely Fe-dom) mother than I did when I was younger. I harmonize with her over our shared values, I smooth things out deliberately, despite her near-complete lack of logical argumentation or any kind of logical framework whatsoever.


Cool. What I do with Fe-doms is a much more passive kind of Fe. I don't often take initiative in smoothing things out like that and when I do it's done with me leaning on Ti much more than any Fe directly. The latter case (utilizing the Fe directly) is extremely rare. You do sound like tertiary Fe alright.




> Admittedly, I do still thrive off some amount of conflict and antagonism. I'm definitely fine with conflict in a way that most FJs I know are not; I don't usually need to smooth things over.


Yeah, I know what you mean 




> I think I still have some negative Fe, too. It's not like an inferior, but as I think I mentioned, I turn the Fe around and use it to emotionally wound people sometimes, and I do it semi-consciously (sometimes I don't catch myself until after I've already started doing it). And this tends to happen more under stress, when I'm just 'normal' I don't tend to do this.


Right, that doesn't sound like inferior Fe either. Again this seems like a more active and direct utilization of Fe.




> I'm on the verge of that, actually. The more I read the less I understand, everything seems inconsistent with everything else, everything is open to so many interpretations that I can't determine what the author intended, etc etc etc. So many problems. Add in confirmation bias and I'm not sure I can type myself at all.


Well that happens when you read up on even the most idiotic ideas by random MBTI fans who have no idea what they are talking about. I simply ignore the bullshit. Yes I understand your problem is far more reaching than that as you have a problem even with the information straight from the horse's mouth. I again can only recommend pulling out the Judgment (Ti) and make sense of Jung that way but I wonder if that's also useless to you as your Ti could get overly flexible, too easily changing explanations (if I go by socionics here). :shocked: Then the last thing I can recommend is, go with ENTP, observe things in you and your life and people according to this typing, don't immediately judge it all, wait a while and then see if it makes sense overall afterwards.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

myst91 said:


> Now what happened, what's the reasoning for this?


I was reading some threads where Ne-doms posted ideas they came up with. I can conclusively say that I don't come up with ideas like that all the time. Of course I come up with ideas that are not possible within the constraints of reality, and do so on a regular basis (multiple times a day, not constantly), but my ideas are much less "out there" and not as farfetched. They are more realistic. They are realistic enough that I could actually do them.

I was also reading a thread with music by Ne-doms. I noticed that their lyrics are usually less structured and more chaotic than anything I would write (I do write songs so I have some reference point, though of course I don't have anything approaching a professional skill level). I was reading this post discussing Amanda Palmer (the link is to my response). I don't see that song as particularly "random" or "disconnected", not really "chaotic" either but I can't find a better word ... but nevertheless, I wouldn't write lyrics that chaotic.

So anyway, I'm pretty much convinced I'm not Ne, but I'm also quite sure I'm not Se, which is confusing. I'm Ti > Fe, Ti aux and Fe tert (that seems right, right?) which leaves the two ExTP types. But neither fits. Even if I could make Se-dom make sense, inferior Ni doesn't fit. Inferior Si fits, but Ne-dom doesn't fit.

I also question dominant Se because I have NO confidence in the entire physical realm tbh. I'm so unphysical, it's like I'm not even there. I have no presence. I am extremely uncoordinated lol. Really lacking in fine motor skills, hand-eye coordination, graceful/coordinated bodily movements, etc. I don't like working with my hands. Not sure any of this is Se and not just SP stereotypes though. (I know this is also associated with introversion, but I'm quite sure I'm a cognitive extravert.)




> I didn't say *all* of them were unlikely to be true. However, people with high Ne often have ADHD and the sensory issues may come with the territory of high Ne and ADHD and all that. Also the reverse is true, ADHD people often have high Ne, as far as I know.


That might be, but what I said might also be the case. As for my reactions to loud noises, I know a lot of people who have the same issues, and they're all different types.




> Yes that was the Ne-ish part. Ti isn't simply about interlinking but about logically making sense of things and thus seeing/creating actually logical links.


Yes that's what I meant. To me Ne makes high level, vaguer links, like "this is analogous to this which is in turn analogous to this which is in turn analogous to this..." (although I don't actively think that, it's wordless) while Ti derives the links.




> Cool. What I do with Fe-doms is a much more passive kind of Fe. I don't often take initiative in smoothing things out like that and when I do it's done with me leaning on Ti much more than any Fe directly. The latter case (utilizing the Fe directly) is extremely rare. You do sound like tertiary Fe alright.
> 
> Right, that doesn't sound like inferior Fe either. Again this seems like a more active and direct utilization of Fe.


Yes I do actively smooth things out, albeit clumsily. Although if I don't intend on further interactions with the person, I won't bother. Fe-ing excessively is draining for me, like being on my toes all the time. I've had success turning the Fe up to 11 for the first few minutes of a conversation with someone I'm meeting for the first time, but I can't keep that level of intense Fe up for more than a few minutes. It's like I have an inner ExFJ persona I can channel for a few minutes and then it's gone lol.




> Well that happens when you read up on even the most idiotic ideas by random MBTI fans who have no idea what they are talking about. I simply ignore the bullshit. Yes I understand your problem is far more reaching than that as you have a problem even with the information straight from the horse's mouth. I again can only recommend pulling out the Judgment (Ti) and make sense of Jung that way but I wonder if that's also useless to you as your Ti could get overly flexible, too easily changing explanations (if I go by socionics here). :shocked: Then the last thing I can recommend is, go with ENTP, observe things in you and your life and people according to this typing, don't immediately judge it all, wait a while and then see if it makes sense overall afterwards.


Yeah...that's kinda what happens... My Ti is too flexible, it can rationalize anything I throw at it, I can deftly rearrange entire schemas and systems on the fly to fit any new piece of information...well, not in all cases, I do have some principles that seem to hold fast, but in the case of personality type I can change everything I thought I "knew" to fit anything else without much effort.

Anyway, I have been working off the ENTP assumption for the last few weeks, and it just doesn't ring true. I'm not Ne dominant.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

@_Julia Bell_ 

I decided to move this to my own type-me thread (which you apparently found - thanks for the thanks, haha  ) ... I just don't want to clog up a thread about Si with my rambling.



Julia Bell said:


> I looked up some of David's songs. I've no clue what type he is. But his music, especially his lyrics, are so hard and raw and just full of. I don't know. But I wonder if it's more Fi, what you're seeing? As for Regina Spektor, ha. I never quite know what her songs mean, except maybe generally. They seem to mean something deep to her.


Yes, he's raw and has a lot of rage, lol, and it just might not be your kind of music anyway, I don't know. I do see Fi in him but also what I thought was Ne.

Regina strikes me as more like Tori Amos in that way - I mostly only get the 'gist' of their songs. I actually prefer that, though; I don't like lyrics that spell it out too much. (Even my own lyrics aren't about specific events etc, they are only about the 'gist' of things (several things) or an overarching concept.)



> Yeah, same. I do it, especially when I'm just... thinking about stuff, I guess. I like to just wonder about things and why they are the way they are. (That's just human.) Ugh, there's no way to describe this. Okay, warning: crazy train of thoughts below. (...)


Ok, so I'm going to try and keep this short . I think in a similar way to you, and even think about similar topics (theology and philosophy in general are major interests), but I tend to be more technical than you seem to be going by this post ... I'm more dissecting, exacting, and often critical (not necessarily negatively). I am less of an idealist. I am a rather critical person, not of other people or their ideas, but my own - everything I dream up I try to shoot down asap. If it survives the shootdown, then I might have something. I'm also kind of preoccupied with money, even though my parents always had enough growing up, and I've been lucky to have decent jobs... but an idea that won't bring me more money is immediately discarded. I think that's one of my primary judgment criteria, actually.

As an example of my critical tendency, upon hearing that Amanda Palmer song, I thought "So what if we give them all ukuleles? People will just beat each other to death with those instead. Or strangle each other with the strings. Fashion a knife out of them and slit their wrists." I find it hard to see her what-if world as different from the current one - in my mind, they're equivalent, because ukulele = gun.



> (...) Wandering, wondering, questioning, learning, curiosity - they're all such human things. It all feels like waking up in the morning. New things. You don't know what's in store. But you get out of bed. It's hopeful. You do it because you hope to see something beautiful. To stumble upon something worthwhile. You hope for good. If that wasn't there, we wouldn't get out of our beds in the morning and the sunrise would be empty.


I do agree with this though, more or less - that's why I subconsciously like sunrises and I think I'm subconsciously depressed by sunsets? I'm not really sure... but a sunrise indicates all the potential of a new day, all the things that I could learn/explore/do with that day. (OMG I didn't even see the last sentence where you mentioned the sunrise until after I wrote this!!) I often can't help but see the best in situations and in people, even though almost immediately pick it apart and destroy it.



> Do you really not relate to Fi?


Not at all tbh. And worse yet, the only functions I relate to are Ti and Fe. (The links go to my own descriptions of them in this thread, which you might have already seen, idk.) I don't relate to any perceiving functions at all. lol! It's confusing. I'm obviously perceiving the world, and I'm pretty sure I don't lead with a judging function (I'm perceiving dominant and I still have no clue)!


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## penny lane (Nov 21, 2011)

It can be good to take a step back there is a kind of overload of information and the functions start blurring together or your not sure of the actual meaning. I'm going through it too. I was starting to feel I must have Fe but I'm drawn back some by some of the descriptions of Fi. It's more that I can't rule out Ti and I know it can't be Fi and Ti. I think there is value to the functions but I don't understand some of the more heated debates some get into.Different people will see things differently and it's not life and death.I find it's good to exchange opinions and information.I like to understand how we process information but you can feel overwhelmed by it.

As for Ne I have to look that one over again too. To me it's a function that can look like other functions or at leastI can confuse them.

Se/Si? I honestly feel I see things as they are (Se)and something else might shade or alter my view one of the subjective functions comes in.I can't rule out Si but I still have a hard time seeing as my dominate function. I might do some more lurking on the specific typing threads. I did spend quite a bit of time on ISFP and feel very comfortable there. Maybe I'm overthinking things and should see how the other types come across without trying so hard to type myself.Might get better idea from that before trying to understand the functions again.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

@_penny lane_ 

Yes, that does sound like you could use a step back and a kind of "breather" where you just casually try on different types, so to speak, and see what sticks. ISFP could make sense for you, if you relate to dominant Fi and are Se > Si. Sometimes it's just about the "vibe" of the type too, I get that. My knowledge still isn't very good so I have difficulty following the debates people have.

This might be one I/E difference - as a cognitive extravert, I can take in information all day long and am energized by it, so I don't feel overloaded. The main problem (as is clear to see in this very thread lol) is that I don't stop to judge the information, to actually process it, to integrate it into the framework of everything else I know (about type and in general), so I don't seem to get anything out of it.

I'll read Jung's Extraverted Intuitive type in Chapter X of Psychological Types and I'm like "YEah!!! That's totally me!!!!" and then the next day I'm like "WTF??? Why did I relate to that? That's so not me." and it goes back and forth.

Here is basically my problem:

-I'm a Ti/Fe type. The only thing of which I'm totally sure tbh
-Neither Ti nor Fe is my dominant/inferior in either order (and anyway I do not lead with a judging function lol I perceive too much and judge little, I wish I had more judgment)
-So that leaves the ETPs and the IFJs
-Pretty sure of Ti > Fe though (see negative/tertiary Fe commentary earlier in thread)
-So that leaves the ETPs
-I don't have dominant Ne or dominant Se
-I don't have inferior Ni. I might have inferior Si, if it were possible to have inferior Si without dominant Ne
-?????? confused.

I've derived a contradiction, there. So clearly one of my assumptions and/or my understanding of the theory and/or the theory itself is incorrect.


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## penny lane (Nov 21, 2011)

ketchup said:


> @_penny lane_
> 
> Yes, that does sound like you could use a step back and a kind of "breather" where you just casually try on different types, so to speak, and see what sticks. ISFP could make sense for you, if you relate to dominant Fi and are Se > Si. Sometimes it's just about the "vibe" of the type too, I get that. My knowledge still isn't very good so I have difficulty following the debates people have.
> 
> ...



One thing I do that could be Ni is filter out information that doesn't seem necessary (but sometimes it turns out it is!) I'm also not sure I'm good a brainstorming that seems to be a very Ne thing.

Fi -I can relate to that,judging things by how I feel .Thinking with your feelings is one phrase I have read about Fi doms.That makes sense. 

Yes it doesn't help when you can relate to the inferior function but the dominate one doesn't fit.The conventional wisdom is you can narrow it down by find the dominate or inferior function but it doesn't always work that way.You could relate to tertiary Si for example but don't see how you could be Aux Ne. If you find any of the types here that you relate to more than the others that might help .Getting a feel for how they talk and how their minds work how the react you may see yourself in one of them. 

I'm going to continue to try and understand the functions but not worry about the typing part so much.

Talking about Regina Spektor. I have not listened to her that much I would have to listen to her more but I found it easier to listen to Enya .I don't know if that is due to type or just being more familiar with her music. 
Amanda Palmer in her own way makes sense but that isn't to say my mind works quite like that!

I'm confused too but we're not alone on that that's a good thing about this board a lot of us are looking for a better understanding.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

penny lane said:


> It can be good to take a step back there is a kind of overload of information and the functions start blurring together or your not sure of the actual meaning. I'm going through it too. I was starting to feel I must have Fe but I'm drawn back some by some of the descriptions of Fi.


You sound very Fi/Te, INFP or ISFP works. Just my 2 cents 

One more note, you also sound quite down to earth in a way so I would seriously consider that ISFP option for you.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

ketchup said:


> I was reading some threads where Ne-doms posted ideas they came up with. I can conclusively say that I don't come up with ideas like that all the time. Of course I come up with ideas that are not possible within the constraints of reality, and do so on a regular basis (multiple times a day, not constantly), but my ideas are much less "out there" and not as farfetched. They are more realistic. They are realistic enough that I could actually do them.


You are contradicting what we've discussed before - that you don't know very well what possibility is realistic. Now you sound like you believe you actually know that very well.




> I was also reading a thread with music by Ne-doms. I noticed that their lyrics are usually less structured and more chaotic than anything I would write (I do write songs so I have some reference point, though of course I don't have anything approaching a professional skill level). I was reading this post discussing Amanda Palmer (the link is to my response). I don't see that song as particularly "random" or "disconnected", not really "chaotic" either but I can't find a better word ... but nevertheless, I wouldn't write lyrics that chaotic.


Interesting. Yet you think you're a perceiver dominant?




> I also question dominant Se because I have NO confidence in the entire physical realm tbh. I'm so unphysical, it's like I'm not even there. I have no presence. I am extremely uncoordinated lol. Really lacking in fine motor skills, hand-eye coordination, graceful/coordinated bodily movements, etc. I don't like working with my hands. Not sure any of this is Se and not just SP stereotypes though. (I know this is also associated with introversion, but I'm quite sure I'm a cognitive extravert.)


Low S, yes. But I'm set on ENxx for you so no surprise here.




> That might be, but what I said might also be the case. As for my reactions to loud noises, I know a lot of people who have the same issues, and they're all different types.


Well the idea was that the ADHD stuff seems to be so strongly correlated with high Ne (whether actually preferred or not) that it doesn't actually really go against you being N > S.

As for the loud noises stuff, that tidbit on its own doesn't really give a type. Just saying that it's consistent with N > S.




> Yes that's what I meant. To me Ne makes high level, vaguer links, like "this is analogous to this which is in turn analogous to this which is in turn analogous to this..." (although I don't actively think that, it's wordless) while Ti derives the links.


Hmm, vague? I didn't think Ne to a Ne dom is that vague though certainly seems very vague to me personally. Interesting that your POV is this.




> Yes I do actively smooth things out, albeit clumsily. Although if I don't intend on further interactions with the person, I won't bother. Fe-ing excessively is draining for me, like being on my toes all the time. I've had success turning the Fe up to 11 for the first few minutes of a conversation with someone I'm meeting for the first time, but I can't keep that level of intense Fe up for more than a few minutes. It's like I have an inner ExFJ persona I can channel for a few minutes and then it's gone lol.


What do you do after it's gone? Why is it gone?




> Yeah...that's kinda what happens... My Ti is too flexible, it can rationalize anything I throw at it, I can deftly rearrange entire schemas and systems on the fly to fit any new piece of information...well, not in all cases, I do have some principles that seem to hold fast, but in the case of personality type I can change everything I thought I "knew" to fit anything else without much effort.


Well that sounds rather chaotic to me  The systems I build are much more rigid. I can't change the whole thing in one go. 




> Anyway, I have been working off the ENTP assumption for the last few weeks, and it just doesn't ring true. I'm not Ne dominant.


Alright then the only suggestion I have left for you is ENFJ. That, or Ne-dom.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

ketchup said:


> This might be one I/E difference - as a cognitive extravert, I can take in information all day long and am energized by it, so I don't feel overloaded. The main problem (as is clear to see in this very thread lol) is that I don't stop to judge the information, to actually process it, to integrate it into the framework of everything else I know (about type and in general), so I don't seem to get anything out of it.


Yeah so how hard would it be to stop more often to judge it with Ti? 




> I'll read Jung's Extraverted Intuitive type in Chapter X of Psychological Types and I'm like "YEah!!! That's totally me!!!!" and then the next day I'm like "WTF??? Why did I relate to that? That's so not me." and it goes back and forth.


Lol, interesting.




> Here is basically my problem:
> 
> -I'm a Ti/Fe type. The only thing of which I'm totally sure tbh


Good to have one sure point 

I agree, btw. Definitely some high reliance on Ti here in some way.




> I've derived a contradiction, there. So clearly one of my assumptions and/or my understanding of the theory and/or the theory itself is incorrect.


Well.. ok, considering my conclusions so far, if you really don't relate to dominant Ne as per Jung's stuff, how about Fe?


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

myst91 said:


> You are contradicting what we've discussed before - that you don't know very well what possibility is realistic. Now you sound like you believe you actually know that very well.


I'm only saying that compared to their ideas, my ideas are more realistic. I don't daydream about space exploration and teleportation all day long.

I mean, my ideas aren't realistic in that they can't all be implemented in this reality. I have ideas at work and stuff, but most of them cannot be implemented due to the limits of our systems, software, and the computers themselves... and it's analogous in other areas of life... so they are not realistic in the current reality (but they are realistic in a future/hypothetical scenario).



> Interesting. Yet you think you're a perceiver dominant?


Yes. I judge the f*ck out of my lyrics, like I process them for weeks, months, years before I consider them "done" - so a lot of judgment goes into them, that's why they're not chaotic.



> Low S, yes. But I'm set on ENxx for you so no surprise here.


OK.



> Well the idea was that the ADHD stuff seems to be so strongly correlated with high Ne (whether actually preferred or not) that it doesn't actually really go against you being N > S.
> 
> As for the loud noises stuff, that tidbit on its own doesn't really give a type. Just saying that it's consistent with N > S.


When I made my original comment on the ADHD-PI stuff I was thinking that I could be a non-Ne type with ADHD-PI that was _mimicking _Ne dominance.



> > Yes that's what I meant. To me Ne makes high level, vaguer links, like "this is analogous to this which is in turn analogous to this which is in turn analogous to this..." (although I don't actively think that, it's wordless) while Ti derives the links.
> 
> 
> Hmm, vague? I didn't think Ne to a Ne dom is that vague though certainly seems very vague to me personally. Interesting that your POV is this.


It's vague compared to Ti, which is precise and exacting, that's what I was trying to say. But I could be talking about some other function entirely if I'm not actually Ne dominant.



> What do you do after it's gone? Why is it gone?


I keep interacting normally, with a 'normal' (for me) amount of Fe. I've seen ExFJs at their best and their Fe is so natural and smooth. In the situation I was discussing earlier, turning the Fe up to 11, it feels forced and overdone. As for why it's gone, I can't keep up that level of Fe beyond a few minutes.



> Well that sounds rather chaotic to me  The systems I build are much more rigid. I can't change the whole thing in one go.


Well like I said I can't always change my systems in one go, it depends on how rigid they are. I can be very rigid at times (the best examples of this are overly personal so I'm not going to get into them). But in the case of type I'm not.



> Alright then the only suggestion I have left for you is ENFJ. That, or Ne-dom.


Dominant Fe and inferior Ti aren't going to work. Dominant Fe is even more wrong dominant Ne. If it's between ENTP and ENFJ I'd have to go with ENTP. But I don't think that's correct either.




myst91 said:


> Yeah so how hard would it be to stop more often to judge it with Ti?


It would be hard lol. I know I need to do that but everything is so interesting that I have to read it all, I can't stop! I think I'm an information junkie.



> > I'll read Jung's Extraverted Intuitive type in Chapter X of Psychological Types and I'm like "YEah!!! That's totally me!!!!" and then the next day I'm like "WTF??? Why did I relate to that? That's so not me." and it goes back and forth.
> 
> 
> Lol, interesting.


And maddening. I think the root of the problem is that I lack self-awareness.



> Good to have one sure point
> 
> I agree, btw. Definitely some high reliance on Ti here in some way.


Well that's good.



> Well.. ok, considering my conclusions so far, if you really don't relate to dominant Ne as per Jung's stuff, how about Fe?


As above... I can't relate to dominant Fe at all, at least I can relate to dominant Ne in some ways and at some times. I do have some Fe as we discussed but nothing dominant.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

ketchup said:


> I'm only saying that compared to their ideas, my ideas are more realistic. I don't daydream about space exploration and teleportation all day long.
> 
> I mean, my ideas aren't realistic in that they can't all be implemented in this reality. I have ideas at work and stuff, but most of them cannot be implemented due to the limits of our systems, software, and the computers themselves... and it's analogous in other areas of life... so they are not realistic in the current reality (but they are realistic in a future/hypothetical scenario).


OK.




> Yes. I judge the f*ck out of my lyrics, like I process them for weeks, months, years before I consider them "done" - so a lot of judgment goes into them, that's why they're not chaotic.


Ti judgment or Fe judgment?




> When I made my original comment on the ADHD-PI stuff I was thinking that I could be a non-Ne type with ADHD-PI that was _mimicking _Ne dominance.


Sure just not likely to get too far from high Ne.




> I keep interacting normally, with a 'normal' (for me) amount of Fe. I've seen ExFJs at their best and their Fe is so natural and smooth. In the situation I was discussing earlier, turning the Fe up to 11, it feels forced and overdone. As for why it's gone, I can't keep up that level of Fe beyond a few minutes.


Was it turned up in your video too ? 




> Well like I said I can't always change my systems in one go, it depends on how rigid they are. I can be very rigid at times (the best examples of this are overly personal so I'm not going to get into them). But in the case of type I'm not.


How are Ti systems personal?




> Dominant Fe and inferior Ti aren't going to work. Dominant Fe is even more wrong dominant Ne. If it's between ENTP and ENFJ I'd have to go with ENTP. But I don't think that's correct either.


Well I've given you all I could, you're one of those, I don't see anything else based on the data so far.




> And maddening. I think the root of the problem is that I lack self-awareness.


Yeah, but don't give up =)


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

myst91 said:


> Ti judgment or Fe judgment?


I was referring to Ti. They don't sound like normal songs, I'm not really sure how to put this but they come across overly technical, like a song written by a calculator if calculators could write songs. lol. I think chaos would be better actually.



> Was it turned up in your video too ?


 Not to 11 but I was definitely being more animated than I usually am in a prolonged interaction. If the video were longer you'd probably have seen it wear off though. Did you really see THAT much Fe in my video? I was surprised at how animated I came across. I tend to think I'm expressionless and kind of 'cold' but I was actually quite animated on camera.



> How are Ti systems personal?


The systems aren't personal, but the best examples are personal in that they could easily be identifying if I posted about them on a public forum.



> Well I've given you all I could, you're one of those, I don't see anything else based on the data so far.
> 
> Yeah, but don't give up =)


Well thanks I appreciate it.

Do you still think ENTP is the most likely type for me?


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## yentipeee (Jun 19, 2013)

ketchup said:


> ...
> Do you still think ENTP is the most likely type for me?


No.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

yentipeee said:


> No.


lol good. Me neither. I'd rather be basically any other type. Got a better suggestion?


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