# Eight Ways to Spot Emotional Manipulation



## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

Eight Ways to Spot Emotional Manipulation

Emotional Manipulation is Also "Covert Aggression." See: "Psychopaths: Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" Here	is a list adapted from an article by Fiona McColl

1) There is no use in trying to be honest with an emotional manipulator. You make a statement and it will be turned around. Example: I am really angry that you forgot my birthday. Response - "It makes me feel sad that you would think I would forget your birthday, I should have told you of the great personal stress I am facing at the moment - but you see I didn’t want to trouble you. You are right I should have put all this pain (don’t be surprised to see real tears at this point) aside and focused on your birthday. Sorry." Even as you are hearing the words you get the creeped out sensation that they really do NOT mean they are sorry at all - but since they’ve said the words you’re pretty much left with nothing more to say. Either that or you suddenly find yourself babysitting their angst!! Under all circumstances if you feel this angle is being played - don’t capitulate! Do not care take - do not accept an apology that feels like bullshit. If it feels like bullshit - it probably is. Rule number one - if dealing with an emotional blackmailer TRUST your gut. TRUST your senses. Once an emotional manipulator finds a successful maneuver - it’s added to their hit list and you’ll be fed a steady diet of this shit.

2) An emotional manipulator is the picture of a willing helper. If you ask them to do something they will almost always agree - that is IF they didn’t volunteer to do it first. Then when you say, "ok thanks" - they make a bunch of heavy sighs, or other non verbal signs that let you know they don’t really want to do whatever said thing happens to be. When you tell them it doesn’t seem like they want to do whatever - they will turn it around and try to make it seem like OF COURSE they wanted to and how unreasonable you are. This is a form of crazy making - which is something emotional manipulators are very good at. Rule number two - If an emotional manipulator said YES - make them accountable for it. Do NOT buy into the sighs and subtleties - if they don’t want to do it - make them tell you it up front - or just put on the walk-man headphones and run a bath and leave them to their theater.

3) Crazy making - saying one thing and later assuring you they did not say it. If you find yourself in a relationship where you figure you should start keeping a log of what’s been said because you are beginning to question your own sanity --You are experiencing emotional manipulation. An emotional manipulator is an expert in turning things around, rationalizing, justifying and explaining things away. They can lie so smoothly that you can sit looking at black and they’ll call it white - and argue so persuasively that you begin to doubt your very senses. Over a period of time this is so insidious and eroding it can literally alter your sense of reality. WARNING: Emotional Manipulation is VERY Dangerous! It is very disconcerting for an emotional manipulator if you begin carrying a pad of paper and a pen and making notations during conversations. Feel free to let them know you just are feeling so "forgetful" these days that you want to record their words for posterity’s sake. The damndest thing about this is that having to do such a thing is a clear example for why you should be seriously thinking about removing yourself from range in the first place. If you’re toting a notebook to safeguard yourself - that ol’ bullshit meter should be flashing steady by now!

4) Guilt. Emotional manipulators are excellent guilt mongers. They can make you feel guilty for speaking up or not speaking up, for being emotional or not being emotional enough, for giving and caring, or for not giving and caring enough. Any thing is fair game and open to guilt with an emotional manipulator. Emotional manipulators seldom express their needs or desires openly - they get what they want through emotional manipulation. Guilt is not the only form of this but it is a potent one. Most of us are pretty conditioned to do whatever is necessary to reduce our feelings of guilt. Another powerful emotion that is used is sympathy. An emotional manipulator is a great victim. They inspire a profound sense of needing to support, care for and nurture. Emotional Manipulators seldom fight their own fights or do their own dirty work. The crazy thing is that when you do it for them (which they will never ask directly for), they may just turn around and say they certainly didn’t want or expect you to do anything! Try to make a point of not fighting other people’s battles, or doing their dirty work for them. A great line is "I have every confidence in your ability to work this out on your own" - check out the response and note the bullshit meter once again.

5) Emotional manipulators fight dirty. They don’t deal with things directly. They will talk around behind your back and eventually put others in the position of telling you what they would not say themselves. They are passive aggressive, meaning they find subtle ways of letting you know they are not happy little campers. They’ll tell you what they think you want to hear and then do a bunch of jerk off shit to undermine it. Example: "Of course I want you to go back to school honey and you know I’ll support you." Then exam night you are sitting at the table and poker buddies show up, the kids are crying the t.v. blasting and the dog needs walking - all the while "Sweetie" is sitting on their ass looking at you blankly. Dare you call them on such behavior you are likely to hear, "well you can’t expect life to just stop because you have an exam can you honey?" Cry, scream or choke ‘em - only the last will have any long-term benefits and it’ll probably wind your butt in jail.

6) If you have a headache an emotional manipulator will have a brain tumor! No matter what your situation is the emotional manipulator has probably been there or is there now - but only ten times worse. It’s hard after a period of time to feel emotionally connected to an emotional manipulator because they have a way of de-railing conversations and putting the spotlight back on themselves. If you call them on this behavior they will likely become deeply wounded or very petulant and call you selfish - or claim that it is you who are always in the spotlight. The thing is that even tho you know this is not the case you are left with the impossible task of proving it. Don’t bother - TRUST your gut and walk away!

7) Emotional manipulators somehow have the ability to impact the emotional climate of those around them. When an emotional manipulator is sad or angry the very room thrums with it - it brings a deep instinctual response to find someway to equalize the emotional climate and the quickest route is by making the emotional manipulator feel better - fixing whatever is broken for them. Stick with this type of loser for too long and you will be so enmeshed and co-dependent you will forget you even have needs - let alone that you have just as much right to have your needs met.

8) Emotional manipulators have no sense of accountability. They take no responsibility for themselves or their behavior - it is always about what everyone else has "done to them". One of the easiest ways to spot an emotional manipulator is that they often attempt to establish intimacy through the early sharing of deeply personal information that is generally of the "hook-you-in-and-make-you-sorry-for-me" variety. Initially you may perceive this type of person as very sensitive, emotionally open and maybe a little vulnerable. Believe me when I say that an emotional manipulator is about as vulnerable as a rabid pit bull, and there will always be a problem or a crisis to overcome.


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## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

try using more paragraphs, reading those chunks of text is giving me a headache


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

I know that this is in sex & relationships, but it really reminds me of my grandmother. Most of my family, actually.


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## BlueCherokee (Jul 12, 2011)

> I know that this is in sex & relationships, but it really reminds me of my grandmother. Most of my family, actually.


I'm sorry


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

Wow. To come across this again. Reading this, reading point 3, that was the very first time I began to suspect that my relationship might not have been what it seemed to be.


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## run.away.unicorn (Jun 27, 2011)

thanks. is alot to read and digest in one go. still, i appreciate your effort. i appreciate and hope ur thought behind this post liberates me n others from the toxicity of an E M


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

one of the best (in terms of what I find informative & useful) threads in this subforum in a long while...


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## Spiny (Jun 21, 2011)

Been through this with someone; it's not an enjoyable experience. Especially when you begin questioning your own integrity. The first post seems pretty spot on with it... if you spot the signs I suggest staying far away, no good will come of trying to help the person (in my own experience).


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

I'll be back for this after dinner. Tonight, I can haz cheezburger.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

Another to add to the list, to bump it up to 9:

If he/she makes you finally *snap* - and you catch a creepy little smile on his/her face. They've gotcha. Now they're the victim and you will always be in the wrong.

*shiver*


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## PrinceinExile (Dec 29, 2010)

#2 seems pretty normal to be, it *can* be used in a manipulative way. But sighing and when they offer to do it instead refusing them, and doing it yourself, seems more like politeness than manipulation. in my mind a sigh is a a lot better than whining like a child and being up _front_ and saying "But I don't want to do the dishes!"

Sometime people just suck it up and express a slightly bit of distaste for an activity without making a scene out of it. Though a manipulator will make a scene either way, if it's just _a sigh or grunt_ that pretty standard. Especially if you know they don't like that activity. Some people are just subtle about these things.


Sometimes a sigh is just a sigh, and not a penis.


8# seems a bit off too, I know plenty of people are just open with people on their first meeting who aren't "emotional manipulators" there just open. Granted I'm sure some are just manipulators, but I think a lot of the people who are very sensitive, emotionally open and maybe a little vulnerable, are just that (and most likely NF's).

The rest are fine, though I think "How to spot a Sociopath" would have been a better title.


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## alphacat (Mar 17, 2011)

First of all, I want to thank you for this great post. Upon reading the list, I noticed that the girl I'm currently with right now hits so many of these points it's uncanny. She's an ENFJ by the way.



Heather White Karnas said:


> 1) There is no use in trying to be honest with an emotional manipulator. You make a statement and it will be turned around. Example: I am really angry that you forgot my birthday. Response - "It makes me feel sad that you would think I would forget your birthday


Me: I really don't like how you completely changed the plan the last minute... I feel screwed over having prepared for this evening for a week.
Her: Well, my friends cancelled on me too, so you're not the only one who got screwed. You make me feel like I'm a bad person.



> 2) An emotional manipulator is the picture of a willing helper. If you ask them to do something they will almost always agree - that is IF they didn’t volunteer to do it first. Then when you say, "ok thanks" - they make a bunch of heavy sighs, or other non verbal signs that let you know they don’t really want to do whatever said thing happens to be.


Me: Since I made dinner, could you do the dishes?
Her: *sigh* why did you have to ask? I was going to do it anyway.

Me (some point during sex): Can I get a BJ?
Her: Why do you have to ask? Can't you let it happen naturally? I actually love pleasuring my partner.

Btw, she has never initiated a BJ during sex if I do not ask.



> 3) Crazy making - saying one thing and later assuring you they did not say it. If you find yourself in a relationship where you figure you should start keeping a log of what’s been said because you are beginning to question your own sanity


She either swears I remembered wrong, or that her tone is different.



> 8) Emotional manipulators have no sense of accountability. They take no responsibility for themselves or their behavior - it is always about what everyone else has "done to them". One of the easiest ways to spot an emotional manipulator is that they often attempt to establish intimacy through the early sharing of deeply personal information that is generally of the "hook-you-in-and-make-you-sorry-for-me" variety. Initially you may perceive this type of person as very sensitive, emotionally open and maybe a little vulnerable. Believe me when I say that an emotional manipulator is about as vulnerable as a rabid pit bull, and there will always be a problem or a crisis to overcome.


She tells me about all these stories about how people in her life abused her and used her. Including how one ex 'made her' eat healthy in order to help her lose weight, and how she had a friend who would only hang out with her when she pays for gas.

This all sounded normal unless one day, I heard her talk to her roommate about how I 'made her' watch CNN... Basically, what happens is, whenever I'm alone, I would on my computer with CNN on tv muted. Whenever she comes over, CNN is always on, and we would change the channel to something else if she wanted to watch tv. Somehow that was me making her watch the news.

Also, she's quite a bit poorer than I am, and she rarely has money to go out and eat. She expressly told me I had to 'feed her' when she's over. Therefore, I almost always buy her dinner when we go out, or when we stay in, I order in for her. When she told me the story about her buying gas for her friend, I couldn't help but wonder why she never noticed the irony.


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## Spiny (Jun 21, 2011)

Yardiff Bey said:


> Another to add to the list, to bump it up to 9:
> 
> If he/she makes you finally *snap* - and you catch a creepy little smile on his/her face. They've gotcha. Now they're the victim and you will always be in the wrong.
> 
> *shiver*


Definitely. That's their whole game. They continually spurt how they're the victim of everything and everyone and they want you to slip up just once so they can hold that over/against you. Fortunately, when my relationship with a person like this came to an end, they had nothing to hold over me, so they couldn't use it in further manipulation or in making me feel guilty. I still felt guilty, but it was over leaving someone behind that needed a lot of help (in regards to these very issues) and over my own views of loyalty and commitment (but I shortly came to the conclusion that I had done everything possible to make things work out, which I had - and then some).



alphacat said:


> First of all, I want to thank you for this great post. Upon reading the list, I noticed that the girl I'm currently with right now hits so many of these points it's uncanny. She's an ENFJ by the way.
> 
> Me: I really don't like how you completely changed the plan the last minute... I feel screwed over having prepared for this evening for a week.
> Her: Well, my friends cancelled on me too, so you're not the only one who got screwed. You make me feel like I'm a bad person.
> ...


Unfortunately, that does sound concerning. I can draw a number of comparisons between what you've posted and what happened in my previous situation with someone like this. The most concerning to me is the part I bolded; I heard endless stories of how awfully she'd been treated and abused on occasions by family, friends and ex-boyfriends alike. I've no doubt that some of them were probably true, but I'm equally sure that a lot were greatly exaggerated and it became clear to me that she was really traumatising herself from these things; it wasn't other people traumatising her. To me, it was like she was living in her own separate reality in her mind at times. I'd suggest from that post you do be cautious of what's going on with your partner.

I might add to the thread also, I did quite a bit of research into narcissistic personality disorder months ago, and it seems synonymous with emotionally abusive behaviour.

EDIT: One more bit, the person I'm referring to was also an ENFJ - I'm thinking that behaviour like this may just be typical of a poorly-adjusted ENFJ.


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## Therapist (Nov 16, 2009)

alphacat said:


> Me (some point during sex): Can I get a BJ?


lol'd. You literally _ask_?


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## alphacat (Mar 17, 2011)

Therapist said:


> lol'd. You literally _ask_?


Ya, not the best moment in my sex life. I go down on her every single time (since that's the only way she can climax), but she just hasn't been reciprocating. So I asked.... Anyway, I realized that when I ask, I sometime get it, when I don't ask, she never does it. So, might as well.

Btw, she did tell me before we ever had sex that 1. she's good at it, and 2. she loves pleasuring people.


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## Therapist (Nov 16, 2009)

alphacat said:


> Ya, not the best moment in my sex life. I go down on her every single time (since that's the only way she can climax), but she just hasn't been reciprocating. So I asked.... Anyway, I realized that when I ask, I sometime get it, when I don't ask, she never does it. So, might as well.


Weird, man. 

Just try putting it in her mouth. If she says no, slap her. Girls like that. (srs)


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## BlueCherokee (Jul 12, 2011)

Regardless of how much all of this behavior is abusive and dysfunctional, I just want to say that some people have a lot of emotional issues that they need to deal with in order to improve their relationships. I think it's important to have compassion for others, even when some may have the habit of being more hypocritical. I'm not saying put up with someone's bullshit if they are sincerely making you miserable, by all means, get that person out of your life if they don't make you happy. However, I don't think it's fair to pretend that we all don't have these habits and dysfunctional behaviors sometimes. .


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

Wow, that sounds like my mom. But I figured out how to fight fire with fire...sort of.


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## PrinceinExile (Dec 29, 2010)

alphacat said:


> She's an ENFJ by the way.


I was actually comparing this to my male ENFJ friend and found similar results, Not bashing on ENFJ's I just I think these might be signs for a very unhealthy ENFJ.

Granted I'm sure *everyone* has some of these traits no matter how noble of a person, regardless of type. I know I have a few of these traits, hell everyone I've ever meet does. When you break them down to the basic behaviors these are some basic human interactions that people use day to day, just some people do it more consciously then other and more often. The people who push the limit on it are the manipulation.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

alphacat said:


> Btw, she did tell me before we ever had sex that 1. she's good at it, and 2. she loves pleasuring people.


I cry foul on this one. If #2 was true she'd BJ without you asking, once she knew that you like it.

When words and actions do not match = lies, and gets my BS meter switched on to see what other BS is there. :-/


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## freeagen (Apr 29, 2011)

I have done some of these things in my life unwittingly and I strive to make sure I don't.
People can be oblivious to their own error sometimes.
Few will admit it.


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## BlueCherokee (Jul 12, 2011)

> I have done some of these things in my life unwittingly and I strive to make sure I don't.
> People can be oblivious to their own error sometimes.
> Few will admit it.


Yep.


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## cricket (Jan 10, 2011)

I don't have a good bullshit meter even still, with him.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

cricket said:


> I don't have a good bullshit meter even still, with him.


That's why these things are here for you to use as tools.


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## Hammerhand (Jul 24, 2010)

Just like my beloved mother ^_^

Edit: sarcasm


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## TheOwl (Nov 3, 2010)

I do the things on the list sometimes...I'll admit it. I try not to.
This guy I'm semi-dating - an ENFP - does it even more than me. Usually I know what he's doing, so it doesn't bother me much. It bothers me when I actually fall for it.

Typical decision making process by us:
Him: "What do you want to eat?"
Me: "I don't really care. Whatever you want."
Him: "But it's _your_ day! You decide."
Me: (I just choose whatever, because I seriously don't care and I know what he's up to). "Okay, let's get ice cream."
Him: "errmmm....nah, let's get Taco Bell."

Why the hell can't he just say he wants Taco Bell in the first place? It's not like I'll think less of him for being assertive when I obviously don't care either way.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Ok Look this thread fucked me up for a while when I started thinking about it like a week ago.

I was guilty of, 1, 2, and 4, ESPECIALLY 1.

None of that other shit though. I've always been honest.

But here is the thing, sometimes people say what they want themselves to really feel

THEY ARENT ALWAYS JUST MANIPULATIVE ASSHOLES

they might instead be "self destructive manipulative"

What this means is that they WANT to feel sorry and are saying sorry but it just seems "off."

Its YOUR job to let them know it didnt feel genuine, and yea, they have issues, and just like anyone, either you can help or you cant.

But lets not label everyone that does number 1 as a bad manipulator

But you havent done that, I just wanted to say, some people really dont want to be that way, and idk, well, sometimes help hurts.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

To the list created by OP .. all I have to say .. "been there, done that" ... Faced it all [and much much more] over 7.5 years .. but faced it with my head held above the water ... 

Yes, I'm emotionally scarred from the experience .. But the healing process has begun

Thanks for the post.


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## Perpetual Iridescence (Apr 13, 2011)

Heather White Karnas said:


> Eight Ways to Spot Emotional Manipulation
> 
> 2) An emotional manipulator is the picture of a willing helper. If you ask them to do something they will almost always agree - that is IF they didn’t volunteer to do it first. Then when you say, "ok thanks" - they make a bunch of heavy sighs, or other non verbal signs that let you know they don’t really want to do whatever said thing happens to be.


I remember I did this only once when I was on a date with my boyfriend and he got a text about having to be at a baseball game because enough scheduled players did not show up. I said I would go, but I acted upset because it interrupted our time together and meant I would have to go home. He asked if I was upset and I told him why, then we decided that i would watch his game and we could get ice cream after. It was a good deal and we had a lot of fun. Does this make me seem like an emotional manipulator or normal because we resolved it?



Heather White Karnas said:


> 4) Guilt. Emotional manipulators are excellent guilt mongers. They can make you feel guilty for speaking up or not speaking up, for being emotional or not being emotional enough, for giving and caring, or for not giving and caring enough.


 I occasionally ask my boyfriend to try to open up to me and express his feelings more. If this makes him feel guilty, does it make me an emotional manipulator?

now I'm confused. Am I at all emotionally manipulative? And if I am, how can i change?


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

yourebffjill said:


> I remember I did this only once when I was on a date with my boyfriend and he got a text about having to be at a baseball game because enough scheduled players did not show up. I said I would go, but I acted upset because it interrupted our time together and meant I would have to go home. He asked if I was upset and I told him why, then we decided that i would watch his game and we could get ice cream after. It was a good deal and we had a lot of fun. Does this make me seem like an emotional manipulator or normal because we resolved it?
> 
> 
> I occasionally ask my boyfriend to try to open up to me and express his feelings more. If this makes him feel guilty, does it make me an emotional manipulator?
> ...


 You are only an emotional manipulator (in an abusive way) if you are doing it to control or weaken the one you are dealing with. Everyone interacts with people using emotions including guilt, regret, and disappointment. Those types of emotions invoke corresponding or responsive emotions in our loved ones.. that doesn't mean that you are manipulating them unless your are being selfish and doing it on purpose to get your own way at the expense of someone else.

Does this answer help you? I hope so.


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## alphacat (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm usually a very calm person, and I enjoy a good debate. However, there's something about the girl I'm with now and the way she argues that makes me really angry. In addition to my previous post, here's an exchange that just happened last night:

Premise is, a guy friend of hers is visiting, she has feelings for him and vise versa, and she wants to spend a week and a half with him to both show him NY and to test the waters. Now, that's an odd situation, but it's for another topic. Before the guy came, she told me I can't see her for the duration. I told her that I don't feel comfortable talking/texting her when she's with another guy and preferred to just not talk until the guy leaves.

3 days into the silence, she texts me, and tells me how much she misses me. I couldn't help myself and I texted back. By the end of the week, I told her talking to her makes me want to see her, and that the week had been unbearable. She said she couldn't see me and the following exchange happened:

Me: Talking to you makes me miss you so much. I want to see you...
Her: Well, then we should stop texting. There's only three days left.
Me: It's too late, the floodgate's been open, it can't be closed.
Her: Yes it can, if we just stop talking you will feel better.
Me: No, I want to see you, that's how I can feel better.
Her: Well, you can't see me, so you can choose one of two things, text me, or not text me.
Me: Ok, I choose to not text you.
Her: So you can what you want, and I just get see be sad and lonely. I see.
Me: What the? What exactly do you want?
Her: Doesn't matter. You can get what you wanted, to not talk to me.

-End call-


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## scarygirl (Aug 12, 2010)

An emotional manipulator is really very troubled at times. We forget that.


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## Heather White Karnas (Mar 23, 2011)

alphacat said:


> I'm usually a very calm person, and I enjoy a good debate. However, there's something about the girl I'm with now and the way she argues that makes me really angry. In addition to my previous post, here's an exchange that just happened last night:
> 
> Premise is, a guy friend of hers is visiting, she has feelings for him and vise versa, and she wants to spend a week and a half with him to both show him NY and to test the waters. Now, that's an odd situation, but it's for another topic. Before the guy came, she told me I can't see her for the duration. I told her that I don't feel comfortable talking/texting her when she's with another guy and preferred to just not talk until the guy leaves.
> 
> ...


definitely emotional manipulation! All around (the back story and the conversation!) Don't be played my friend.


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## Esilenna (Jul 10, 2011)

Sounds like classic psychopath.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

Nearly all, except #6, sound exactly like my mother. #3 was the worst for me. 



> 3) Crazy making - saying one thing and later assuring you they did not say it. If you find yourself in a relationship where you figure you should start keeping a log of what’s been said because you are beginning to question your own sanity --You are experiencing emotional manipulation. An emotional manipulator is an expert in turning things around, rationalizing, justifying and explaining things away. They can lie so smoothly that you can sit looking at black and they’ll call it white - and argue so persuasively that you begin to doubt your very senses. Over a period of time this is so insidious and eroding it can literally alter your sense of reality. WARNING: Emotional Manipulation is VERY Dangerous! It is very disconcerting for an emotional manipulator if you begin carrying a pad of paper and a pen and making notations during conversations. Feel free to let them know you just are feeling so "forgetful" these days that you want to record their words for posterity’s sake. The damndest thing about this is that having to do such a thing is a clear example for why you should be seriously thinking about removing yourself from range in the first place. If you’re toting a notebook to safeguard yourself - that ol’ bullshit meter should be flashing steady by now!


It wasn't until I was probably 20 or 21 when I finally noticed she was doing that, and it was only because we were chatting on facebook and I was able to scroll up and re-read the conversation. I was starting to get a headache and feel utterly defeated, and wanted to clarify if I could... and then realized how much she was twisting the entire conversation. It put a lot of my previous discussions & arguments with her in perspective. 

Thank you for posting this. 



alphacat said:


> 3 days into the silence, she texts me, and tells me how much she misses me. I couldn't help myself and I texted back. By the end of the week, I told her talking to her makes me want to see her, and that the week had been unbearable. She said she couldn't see me and the following exchange happened:
> 
> Me: Talking to you makes me miss you so much. I want to see you...
> Her: Well, then we should stop texting. There's only three days left.
> ...


May I ask why you're still with her?


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## alphacat (Mar 17, 2011)

Chrysantheist said:


> May I ask why you're still with her?


Well, I'm an INTP, and quite frankly, I'm ridiculously shy in terms of girls. I find that I'm somewhat scared of the single world, not wanting to go out and try to pursue a new girl. Therefore, when I'm with a girl, I tend to stick to her even if I know she's got some questionable qualities.

I think the girl I'm currently with is a good person at heart. However, her past has scarred her, and she has put up emotional barriers. Not only that, she has now become very sensitive to jokes, taking most of them as criticism. However, I guess I believe I can help her get out of her shell. It might be a fool's errand, but I do think that she will heal when she's with someone who treats her well.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

alphacat said:


> Well, I'm an INTP, and quite frankly, I'm ridiculously shy in terms of girls. I find that I'm somewhat scared of the single world, not wanting to go out and try to pursue a new girl. Therefore, when I'm with a girl, I tend to stick to her even if I know she's got some questionable qualities.


Yeah... been there, done that. I like to accept people as they are and think that I can just adapt to fit what they need and then we'll be totally happy. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out so well. You may be shy but you're not unloveable. What worries me is the idea that you'll put up with emotional abuse to the point where it damages your self-esteem to the point where you don't believe anyone else _will_ love you. That's not a good place to be.  



alphacat said:


> I think the girl I'm currently with is a good person at heart. However, her past has scarred her, and she has put up emotional barriers. Not only that, she has now become very sensitive to jokes, taking most of them as criticism. However, I guess I believe I can help her get out of her shell. It might be a fool's errand, but I do think that she will heal when she's with someone who treats her well.


And I believe she probably is good at heart. I think most people are... even my mother.  I think you have to be careful though in thinking that _you_ can be the reason/cause of her change. Healing from previous battle wounds is something that she has to do entirely on her own. You can be a support and guide, but unless she wants to change and heal, she won't. And that is a really really hard realization, if/when you get to that point. (I very much hope you do not.)

Good luck. <3


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## blit (Dec 17, 2010)

Spiny said:


> Definitely. That's their whole game. They continually spurt how they're the victim of everything and everyone and they want you to slip up just once so they can hold that over/against you. Fortunately, when my relationship with a person like this came to an end, they had nothing to hold over me, so they couldn't use it in further manipulation or in making me feel guilty. I still felt guilty, but it was over leaving someone behind that needed a lot of help (in regards to these very issues) and over my own views of loyalty and commitment (but I shortly came to the conclusion that I had done everything possible to make things work out, which I had - and then some).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I came to a similar conclusion about NPD and emotional manipulation. My mother definitely emotionally manipulates people who depend on her, but she is "an absolute sweetheart" to everyone else outside our house and who are not dependent on her. Outside she strives for compliments and comes home to brag about them for days in a form of a story. The descriptions 1,2,5,6,8 fit her incredibly well. Especially, #2. Her social life depends on it. I mettled this over in my head for several years, but I'm not confident in quasi-diagnosing people and I never really told anyone. "There's no way that she could be so mean." So many people tell me that she is so nice, and wish she was thier mother. "I'm so lucky." I do recognize now that most other parents don't have emotional problems like her by the way they treat their children. Recently, a friend has become very close to my family, and he commented "How she began to turn on him" as he began to be around us more (a.k.a. become more "dependent" on us). The very thing that happened is with #2 which she hooks others in to her control then threats to take away her super amazing gift. (<- 30 day free* trial). He gave an explanation very similar to the one I formulated. So, I wasn't overly suspicious as I thought. Essentially, it stemmed from her being an unemotionally supportive parent because she wasn't adequately supported emotionally growing up because her parents weren't adequately supported emotionally growing up because they both were severely neglected growing up. Her brother is in bad shape too.


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## alextyrian (May 2, 2011)

*WARNING: WALL OF BITCHING*

My ESFJ mother does this, as does her ISFJ sister who is 45 with the mildest case of cerebral palsy ever, who still lives with my grandmother for pity. My mother also taught it to my 23-year-old INFP sister who now has panic attacks whenever she sees me or has to enter her bedroom because of an argument we had years ago. 

Scenario: I have an argument with my mother where she decides that I can't live in her house anymore because I'm gay. She gives me an hour to pack my things and be out. I go upstairs to start packing, and yell back down to my mother to give me back my laptop (which she confiscated because I was ignoring her while she was trying to emotionally manipulate me) so that I can try to get myself organized, but she refuses, obvi. I start packing for about 15 minutes, get overwhelmed, and yell down the stairs again. Then my sister starts screaming at me from her bed about how I'm an awful person and I don't deserve the laptop. I slam her bedroom door shut because I don't need it, and continue conversing with my mother. Then my sister opens her door and starts banging her fists on my shoulders while screaming and crying. I back up through the hallway, which has some corners from a closet and a half-wall, and she stubs her pinky toe on a corner while physically attacking me. I escape to my bedroom to keep packing, and she starts howling in pain, at which my parents come upstairs and accuse me of assaulting her and breaking her foot. My mother made up the diagnosis that she had a hairline fracture, which I don't even think was true, and then told everyone in her family about it. They went to several doctors, but I don't think she was ever treated or even given painkillers. At one point she told me that one of the doctors said that it was really obviously a case of domestic violence and that she was legally obligated to file a police report, but decided to make an exception to spare her feelings.

So yeah, I'm trying my best not to live there anymore. Unfortunately I was hit by a car while crossing the street which broke my leg, and so I had to live in my parents' living room for 6 months, but that's thankfully over now. Not before my mom told me I should kill myself because I, with my broken leg and my walker, doped-up on narcotics, refused to make an exhausting trip across the house so that my sister wouldn't have to see me, but that's water under the bridge.

So, long story short, I really appreciate this thread.

Edit: An ENFP oboist in one of my woodwind quintets is like this too, actually. I have to put up with her because I'm in the ensemble as a favor to her oboe teacher, whom I respect tremendously, and because we share reed-making space, but she does NOT make it easy. She asks me constantly if she looks fat or if she's ugly or if she's a bad player, and the answer will ALWAYS be upsetting to her. Even if I respond to such a question in a way that's honestly and sincerely complimentary, she accuses me of lying and has an emotional breakdown. If I say she doesn't want me to answer, it's because I think horrible things about her; if I say she shouldn't ask loaded questions like that it's because she's hideous and no one will ever love her; if I call her on her attention-seeking, manipulative behavior she runs from the room crying through the halls of the BUSY performing arts center, telling anyone who tries to comfort her how awful I am. One time I walked into the room while she was crying, and asked if she was okay, and of course the answer was no. Then I asked if it was something I did (because I'm constantly afraid that it's actually my inferior Fe that's the problem), and she said something like "HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW?" and it sent me for a loop. Working with her is absolutely bizarre.


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## Chrysantheist (Jul 1, 2011)

Muck Fe said:


> I came to a similar conclusion about NPD and emotional manipulation. My mother definitely emotionally manipulates people who depend on her, but she is "an absolute sweetheart" to everyone else outside our house and who are not dependent on her. Outside she strives for compliments and comes home to brag about them for days in a form of a story. The descriptions 1,2,5,6,8 fit her incredibly well. Especially, #2. Her social life depends on it. I mettled this over in my head for several years, but I'm not confident in quasi-diagnosing people and I never really told anyone. "There's no way that she could be so mean." So many people tell me that she is so nice, and wish she was thier mother. "I'm so lucky." I do recognize now that most other parents don't have emotional problems like her by the way they treat their children. Recently, a friend has become very close to my family, and he commented "How she began to turn on him" as he began to be around us more (a.k.a. become more "dependent" on us). The very thing that happened is with #2 which she hooks others in to her control then threats to take away her super amazing gift. (<- 30 day free* trial). He gave an explanation very similar to the one I formulated. So, I wasn't overly suspicious as I thought. Essentially, it stemmed from her being an unemotionally supportive parent because she wasn't adequately supported emotionally growing up because her parents weren't adequately supported emotionally growing up because they both were severely neglected growing up. Her brother is in bad shape too.


This sounds very familiar to my family. Thanks for sharing. <3


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

My Mum does each and every one of these. Except for what makes her confusing is her constant announcement of love, or the random presents she'll start showering on my sister and I. One minute, we could be the best children she'd ever wanted, the next she hates us all. Recently, she came to visit and started cleaning my apartment whilst I went to the shops. When I came back, she started screeching and screaming like a deranged banshee; apparently because I was a "selfish little bastard" who had left the house dirty on purpose just to make her clean it. I pointed out I didn't ask her to clean, she said, "it's not clean to my standard, you just can't live to clean people's standards" (no one apart from my Mum has ever complained about the cleanliness levels of my apartment). So apparently, her choice to clean for no reason was my fault, and that she had chosen to do it was also my fault... Thankfully, I gave up trying to understand the woman a long time ago. 

Like the OP pointed out, I'm never honest to my Mum. If she calls me, I lie about my whereabouts, my company etc all the time. She'll try and make me feel guilty for being out if she calls me and I say "I'm out at the moment", she'll start asking where, why etc. Followed by, "when are you going to get home and talk to me? You only have time for your friends". The whole thing makes me laugh sometimes, then I remember that the problem at hand is my Mum, and then I sigh.... lol.


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## Riy (Apr 1, 2010)

This is exactly what my old relationship was like, absolutely mental.


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## thistled bones (Nov 24, 2010)

This is my stepfather in a nutshell.
He's very good at it.
He had me questioning myself and my integrity on a weekly basis---but I soon figured out he was just a manipulative douche.


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## Disfigurine (Jan 1, 2011)

You have no idea how many people in my life or that _were_ in my life fit these descriptions.
I cannot stand emotional manipulation.
Giant *X* out of my life!


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