# How do perceiving functions "hear" Music?



## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

And by hear, do you replay it back in your mind with a slight lag? Do you anticipate familiar music with a sort of 1/2-sec prescience in mind? Do you kinesthetically harmonize with the rhythms? Does the music act as launch pads or trigger points for other thoughts and / or experiences? Lastly, how does an aesthete appreciate the good stuff?

Thoughts!


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

I don't think perceiving functions affect this...


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Kito said:


> I don't think perceiving functions affect this...


Explain


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> Explain


I just don't think perceiving functions affect how you hear music. Maybe what you think of or what part of it you pay attention to, but not the basics of hearing.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Kito said:


> I just don't think perceiving functions affect how you hear music. Maybe what you think of or what part of it you pay attention to, but not the basics of hearing.


I'm not referring to the physical mechanisms of hearing but to the processes of how sound gets translated into music in the mental sphere.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> I'm not referring to the physical mechanisms of hearing but to the processes of how sound gets translated into music in the mental sphere.


I don't think functions would affect that either. They determine how we process information but not quite that. The main discrepancy I can think of is that sensors generally seem more focused on how music sounds, rather than what it means. The opposite being true for intuitives. There's variation in that of course, but still.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Kito said:


> I don't think functions would affect that either. They determine how we process information but not quite that. The main discrepancy I can think of is that sensors generally seem more focused on how music sounds, rather than what it means. The opposite being true for intuitives. There's variation in that of course, but still.


The leap from sound to music is one of transformation from unit to content so it is held in the realms of the perceiving functions. This is neither a conceptualization nor opinion of various types of music but rather how it came to be from mere sound waves. That is, I'm not concerned with "sensors vs intuitives" broad strokes (they've been done to death), but rather specific information pathways of these perceiving functions in the domain of sound (since vision/images have been readily elaborated as attested in other threads), their psychosomatic effects (music therapy related), and other perceptual consequences in mental life.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

Kito said:


> I don't think functions would affect that either. They determine how we process information but not quite that. The main discrepancy I can think of is that sensors generally seem more focused on how music sounds, rather than what it means. The opposite being true for intuitives. There's variation in that of course, but still.


Processing music is processing information?


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

Kito said:


> I don't think perceiving functions affect this...


I don't know about that, exactly. I mean, we're all hearing the same thing but our perceptions of that music will be different, right? Kind of like doing the picture game but with music. The way we experience it might just have some correlation (however small) to type or functions. 

@_nonnaci_, when I replay music in my head, I replay it as it was. I relive the entire experience. I have a great memory for music anyways. I'm definitely very good at anticipating music. I do kinesthetically harmonize with rhythms and I also will hear songs I've never heard before and harmonize with my voice to the music. Music definitely acts as a "launch pad" and "trigger point" for me. It can even be a good place to put thoughts and feelings. The music will trigger feelings within me and I will be effected by that in a major way. 

I'm really sensitive to music, say in films or as background music in stores. Music can make or break an entire experience for me. If a film has a bad soundtrack, I might find myself disliking the film simply because the music in it triggers "bad" emotions or I simply do not like it. (Probably you can tell I'm a definite Fi-Si user, lol). I know a lot of stores play super upbeat pop music that is really synthesized, but to me it sounds "canned" and "fake" most of the time. It also really wears me down. I've left stores not because what they sell is bad but because of the music in the background -- I just want to get out. I feel claustrophobic. If the music is "good", though, I'll actually stay longer than I normally would. Haha. ^_^ 

The aesthete should find appreciating something come easily. If the music is good, they won't have to force themselves to appreciate it.  Of course the question might be, "How can you tell whether or not it's 'good'?" 

What would be interesting to me to figure out is how, say, a dominant Se-user would experience music in comparison to, say, a Ne-user. Or any of the functions in comparison to each other. Just like you can see in that really cool Cognitive Function Picture Game we've got going on. 

I don't know if that what you wanted to hear, OP, but you can of course ask me questions. I love talking about music. Lol.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> And by hear, do you replay it back in your mind with a slight lag?


I remember phrasing, distinctive ques, layering and I am very sensitive to the sounds I hear. I know when something is present and something isn't for instance. I know when the producer changes key or when they are adding different sounds, techniques and shifting to other sub-genres. I will obviously remember melody and lyrics, but I will also connect a sound to something I remember or I've heard before.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Julia Bell said:


> I don't know if that what you wanted to hear, OP, but you can of course ask me questions. I love talking about music. Lol.


Yes, this is sort of the analysis that I'm looking for 



> when I replay music in my head, I replay it as it was. I relive the entire experience. I have a great memory for music anyways. I'm definitely very good at anticipating music. I do kinesthetically harmonize with rhythms and I also will hear songs I've never heard before and harmonize with my voice to the music. Music definitely acts as a "launch pad" and "trigger point" for me. It can even be a good place to put thoughts and feelings. The music will trigger feelings within me and I will be effected by that in a major way.


For replaying music, do you find yourself improvising ontop the harmonics? If I'm tuned into the track irrespective of whether I've heard it or not before, I can often overlay it with a sort of accompaniment just be being in tune with the rhythms. When this process is dumbed down and I'm listening to a familiar song, I will play it back with a sort of echo in the back of my mind/throat (micro-movement but without actual sound). At face value, this sort of harmonization of body to music would seem Se but it really depends on what is the focal point; A focus on syncing up with the music v.s. the attention to the echo being played back. The improv case may be more Se oriented as it's taking an active orientation towards responding to stimuli.

Also, what sort of Ne tangents do you go on with music?



> I'm really sensitive to music, say in films or as background music in stores. Music can make or break an entire experience for me. If a film has a bad soundtrack, I might find myself disliking the film simply because the music in it triggers "bad" emotions or I simply do not like it. (Probably you can tell I'm a definite Fi-Si user, lol). I know a lot of stores play super upbeat pop music that is really synthesized, but to me it sounds "canned" and "fake" most of the time. It also really wears me down. I've left stores not because what they sell is bad but because of the music in the background -- I just want to get out. I feel claustrophobic. If the music is "good", though, I'll actually stay longer than I normally would. Haha. ^_^


I'm also sensitive to music although I never form an active opinion over it. The distinctions I make are generally with regards to harmony vs disharmony as if I can see myself interface with it. The other pole is with regards to emotional _affects_ which happen with "spiritual" type stuff (e.g. choral) or when they are linked to visual contents (like a movie). These cues are literal triggers to my inferior Fe. 

On a related topic, there was a TED talk on using music to direct attention to products (placement) which yielded greater sales. Julian Treasure: The 4 ways sound affects us | Video on TED.com



> The aesthete should find appreciating something come easily. If the music is good, they won't have to force themselves to appreciate it.  Of course the question might be, "How can you tell whether or not it's 'good'?"


Yep, when those art/music critics refer to "refined taste", what do they really mean I wonder?



> What would be interesting to me to figure out is how, say, a dominant Se-user would experience music in comparison to, say, a Ne-user. Or any of the functions in comparison to each other. Just like you can see in that really cool Cognitive Function Picture Game we've got going on.


Ha, would be awesome if we could poll the internet or perc on how they interpret music (hmm, youtube videos). But to tie any of this to cog function would be difficult as low-level stuff for processing are so habitual and most people are focused on their visual attention rather than auditory (there was some lopsided statistic on the bandwidth of visual vs auditory information). 

In any case, I'm looking for more ways of delineating sound to music processing with respect to the perceiving functions. All suggests are welcome!


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Arrow said:


> I remember phrasing, distinctive ques, layering and I am very sensitive to the sounds I hear. I know when something is present and something isn't for instance. I know when the producer changes key or when they are adding different sounds, techniques and shifting to other sub-genres. I will obviously remember melody and lyrics, but I will also connect a sound to something I remember or I've heard before.


What of the converse. That is, how well can you tune out sounds that don't constitute as music or do not fit into any of the filter banks. e.g. sudden sounds annoy me to death as I get a knee jerk reaction that metaphorically pulls me out of the innerworld (aux Se?). 

Would you say that aux Ne in your case manifests in seeing the structure of music in real-time?


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> What of the converse. That is, how well can you tune out sounds that don't constitute as music or do not fit into any of the filter banks. e.g. sudden sounds annoy me to death as I get a knee jerk reaction that metaphorically pulls me out of the innerworld (aux Se?).


It depends on if I know where it's coming from. For instance if I am constantly hearing sounds and I don't know what is causing it, I will look for it to find the source. But if I am aware of what is happening or what might cause the sound of something happening in my immediate sphere then I have no issue with it and I can ignore it. 



> Would you say that aux Ne in your case manifests in seeing the structure of music in real-time?


More like it makes me further define what I am hearing when I listen to certain sounds. So if I am hearing dance music I can follow what genre I am listening to, but then if a DJ switches it up and splices different sounds I can immediately pick up a change of key or a building prominence of other genres like house, trance, dubstep or other ranging influences and pick up on what is being heard underneath the bit. Sometimes for fun I will listen to contemporary music and try and find what elements are in each songs I hear and pick it apart just to see what underlying trends are happening within music.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I consider myself very perceiving and also not a music person.

But, when I hear music it has an uncanny way of making me move to it. When i am walking in a supermarket, I will start aligning my strides with the music. I used to be very embarrassed of this, but have stopped being so, as I'm sure most people don't notice. I also love to dance.

Sound can bother me a lot. I've found that I cannot concentrate in a room where there is too much sound because it becomes distracting. 

I also am very bothered by sirens--they make me feel panicked and anxious.

I do like some environments based mostly on the sound--like I have a favorite place to go where there is only the sound of silence, wind through the grass, and the occasional meadowlark. This is a very peaceful place and I enjoy it very deeply.

I also get very peaceful when I hear crickets or toads/frogs--but I learned as a child that these creatures are alarm systems with silence, so it might not be experiential. 

I also think that Se and Ne would influence how sound is perceived--and I have a good capacity for Se.


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## RoSoDude (Apr 3, 2012)

I have a lot to say on the subject, but this well-written type description from INTP.org says it all for me. How we INTPs interact with music:



> Another area of interest common to INTPs, where Si has a strong influence, is *Music*. INTPs are usually fascinated by music and may have deep and wide-ranging tastes. Indeed, each of their three main functions (Ti, Ne, Si) plays a role in the enjoyment of music, and indeed music is a key interest for bringing out the feeling shadow of the INTP. Si itself brings a fascination for mood and atmosphere in music as well as for a strong sense of personal nostalgia. INTPs are therefore often keen on melancolic minor-key music in which an introspective and/or esoteric mood is conveyed. Equally, INTPs enjoy hearing music that they heard and enjoyed when younger (provided they can still appreciate it now) and yearn for the sense of nostalgia that it yields. INTPs are also drawn to complexly structured music, thanks to their Ti core. An appreciation of modern classical music, as well as perhaps contemporary jazz, is therefore common with them. Such music types are usually too complex to be understood after a single hearing, which hence provides excellent material for analysis, exciting the INTP no end. Once the basic developmental structure of the music has been assessed, Ne provides the impetus to derive a general meaning of the piece. What does the composer wish to convey, for example? Why was that particular development chosen? Indeed, the Ne is usually hard at work during listening sessions, trying to grasp the meanings behind the often fascinating combinations of sound-world evocations, structural developments and nostalgic impressions.
> 
> When the Ti core dominates the choice of music to listen to, the need for intellectual stimulation derived from complex structures and sounds will override concerns for cultured harmony. Hence, INTPs are often drawn to *dissonance*. Indeed, they may even thoroughly strive for dissonant sound worlds. When in such moods, consonant harmonies, especially of the three-chord-melody variety, are dismissed as boring and uninspired. If an INTP is forced to listen to simple harmonic music for a while, he usually can't wait to feel the relief provided by a few minutes of pure dissonance. The ideal music for the Ti core might be typically a modern symphony, with a complex, but analysable structure, with a rich and varied sound world, predominantly dissonant but with sections of melodic motifs to provide solidity. Examples of modern classical composers who particularly speak to the Ti core might be Simpson, Arnold, Holmboe, Maxwell-Davies and Shostakovich.
> 
> ...


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## saffron (Jan 30, 2011)

There is no lag in my mind when listening. If anything it's more of an anticipatory feeling of what's coming with many songs. I like the ones that deliver the unexpected the most as long as it works for me. Unless there is something especially beautiful or exiting musically or lyrically that moves me even though it's just an artful arrangement of predicatable elements. I don't know, it's more of a feeling overall, not something easily explained or defined.

I have noticed that I can love a song that has depressing lyrics, but major chords, or the reverse. But while I might be moved by a lyrically depressing song in the minor chords, I won't listen to it. It's too overwhelmingly sad to me. 

I also love to sing and move/dance to music I like and kind of do that without thinking about it. I'm always moving something if I like the song.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

For me, I love how the sounds feel in music (Si, probably). 

I hate music with sudden *JUMPS TO GET CHEAP SCARES *Or stuff that sounds uninteresting or just painful (For me, Sound >>>>>>>>> Lyrics). There's a certain noise that I really loathe in pop music. I call it the "shiiiinnnnkkk shinnnnnk shinnkkkkk" and a prime example of it is 






So, yeah, sound is king. I love a lot of instrumental music for this reason, and video game music is one of my top favorite genres for the amount of variety, emotional impact, and just general musical beauty.






Showing you the above music and why I liked it, I would point first to that high "twililink" of the violin at around 0.43. I tend to describe music with onomatopoeia or visceral words. There's an almost physical reaction I have to sounds.


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## ibage (May 5, 2012)

Julia Bell said:


> What would be interesting to me to figure out is how, say, a dominant Se-user would experience music in comparison to, say, a Ne-user. Or any of the functions in comparison to each other. Just like you can see in that really cool Cognitive Function Picture Game we've got going on.


I think there's something here I can offer. I'm not an Ne user but I can offer and Ni user's experience to an Se user's. I have a few different pair of higher end headphones and they all sound different. The pair I use most is a very natural, open sounding pair. I have another pair I use when I'm cooking or cleaning around the house with a very upfront, more, "in your face" sound to them. The "stereotypical" descriptions compare one to sitting in the middle of a concert hall and the other is up on stage with the band. 

That said, my brother is an ESFP. I've offered to lend him a pair from time to time and every time, he chooses the more aggressive sounding of the two as oppose the other which he told me was too slow for his liking. 

I don't know if this helps much but I thought it might be an interesting point to throw out there


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## thunder (Jun 15, 2011)

nonnaci said:


> And by hear, do you replay it back in your mind with a slight lag? Do you anticipate familiar music with a sort of 1/2-sec prescience in mind? Do you kinesthetically harmonize with the rhythms? Does the music act as launch pads or trigger points for other thoughts and / or experiences? Lastly, how does an aesthete appreciate the good stuff?
> 
> Thoughts!


When I first hear music, I don't really play it back with a lag but I just listen and decide whether or not it is something I like. When I am listening to a piece I've heard before, I anticipate and listen for the familiar parts. When I know the entire piece, I anticipate and mentally hear the lead-up between the immediate moment's sound and what it will become. If I am singing along to a piece, I am most nearly always ahead unless I try to stay with it. Sometimes I'll echo the lyrics as an "overlaying effect", but if I'm just singing with it, I'm ahead.

Music has the potential to make me move physically: snapping, hand waving/fake conducting of beats, head bopping, dance shuffle, air instrumemt, etc. 

Perhaps Se/Ne will help indicate how you experience music in a moment, but Si/Ni would help indicate how you remember music? Just an idea.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

thunder said:


> Perhaps Se/Ne will help indicate how you experience music in a moment, but Si/Ni would help indicate how you remember music? Just an idea.


Yes, this last point is what I'm getting at although there's all these various shades depending on where the function is on the stack or how differentiated it is. In any case, perhaps if I question what each function aspires to do with music, the answer will become clear.

Ne: What gets abstracted? (for aux Ne, various structures perhaps because Si is not as repressed, no conclusions on dom Ne tho)
Si: What is relived? (for dom Si, visceral reactions)

Se: What gets directed? (for aux Se, various physical movements to sync with it)
Ni: What is extracted? (from my own experience, symbols like "ascension", "tit-for-tat/strokes commonly in duets", "coming full circle of sorts/attainment of closure")


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

nonnaci said:


> And by hear, do you replay it back in your mind with a slight lag? Do you anticipate familiar music with a sort of 1/2-sec prescience in mind? Do you kinesthetically harmonize with the rhythms? Does the music act as launch pads or trigger points for other thoughts and / or experiences? Lastly, how does an aesthete appreciate the good stuff?
> 
> Thoughts!


I'm trying to answer this question without sounding like a total music student snob. Bear with me. 

I can anticipate the direction of music for the most part. Music isn't much more than glorified patterns so it can be predictable. 

One doesn't harmonize with rhythms, but with the melody. There isn't a pop song I can't harmonize to and I think it's because I have an innate desire to interact with music.

This is my experience with writing music: my Ni identifies with the skeletons of music. Scales, progressions, theory are the structures I have naturally acquired via Se, listening for details, slight changes, memorizing specific sounds. My Se wants to take the bare essentials from my Ni, and elaborate on it. 
I've noticed in my lyrics, I tend to use heavy metaphors that involve the actual senses, even if they are indirect and are nothing more than symbolism.

I have no idea if any of that made sense.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

corgiflatmate said:


> I'm trying to answer this question without sounding like a total music student snob. Bear with me.
> 
> I can anticipate the direction of music for the most part. Music isn't much more than glorified patterns so it can be predictable.
> 
> One doesn't harmonize with rhythms, but with the melody. There isn't a pop song I can't harmonize to and I think it's because I have an innate desire to interact with music.


What of the individual instruments in say a classical work. Most conductors for example can separate the parts of individual instruments and sections from the rest of the orchestra. Now granted they have more spatial cues to work with but when I listen to a classical work (baroque upto late romantic era), I can harmonize to both accompaniments and fugues with a slight amount of conscious focus. *damn you fugues


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

nonnaci said:


> What of the individual instruments in say a classical work. Most conductors for example can separate the parts of individual instruments and sections from the rest of the orchestra. Now granted they have more spatial cues to work with but when I listen to a classical work (baroque upto late romantic era), I can harmonize to both accompaniments and fugues with a slight amount of conscious focus. *damn you fugues


When I pick it apart, I typically listen for the woodwinds, which would be more of the Classical era on. In the Baroque era, I listen for the harpsichord. With fugues I tend to follow the second voice because I'm a contralto. Fugues are just a whole 'nother animal.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

corgiflatmate said:


> When I pick it apart, I typically listen for the woodwinds, which would be more of the Classical era on. In the Baroque era, I listen for the harpsichord. With fugues I tend to follow the second voice because I'm a contralto. Fugues are just a whole 'nother animal.


Perhaps one of the most famous ones:





I'd agree that Ni does extract patterns from the music but its hard to nail down what these patterns actually are unless you have some sort of framework to reference them (e.g. music training/theory). Personally, my take on improv is sort of just knowing what would sound good if I layer my stuff ontop of whats being played. I do wonder tho what the function ordering of most guitarists and jazz improv musicians are.


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

I really think this is an interesting idea because I do think that different functions affect how you deal with music. I have a friend (ENFP?? Maybe that means nothing) who likes to create scenarios in her head. I like to create dance moves in my head (if I can't dance in the moment). Or I envision a single image (or look at a random photo) that represents that song. My favorite kind of music is one that 'swirls around the inside of my body, trying to transform me into that music' ....I hope that made sense. 

My least favorite song is one that makes me feel nothing... like I am listening to air. =/ ...You can't dance to air.

Edit:: I never got past preschool dancing... so anytime I create a dance sequence in my mind it's pure imagination.


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## NingenExp (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I love playing with the sounds in my head, moving them from one side of the brain to another in diferent angles, sometimes fast, sometimes slow. I love flowing with the sounds. Sometimes I catch details in the sounds that maybe are not really there or that no one else noticed before. Changes in pitch mainly. I think I perceive music in a very literal way. At the same time I could be imaging how a sound could continue, but I often do not get it right. Sometimes I feel I could make a song better, because of that. I don't really pay a lot of attention to lyrics.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm not knowledgeable on music at all, so I can only talk about how I hear it in general. I tend to like only music that invokes a feeling, usually it's as much about the lyrics as the music. Sometimes, I like how a song sounds when I first hear it until I get the opportunity to listen more closely and I realise I'd misheard the lyrics. If I can't relate in some way to the actual lyrics, often I no longer like how it sounds. I don't pay particular attention to different tones, notes, sounds, etc. either. Music that doesn't have lyrics and doesn't relate to any past experience doesn't hold my interest. 

I don't know if that's very helpful to the op.


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## Eiderdrown (May 9, 2011)

When I'm listening to music I feel like there's a physical space around my head which each instrument archetype goes. For example, I can focus my attention to a little bit behind my eyes to get a firm hold on the vocals (that's where the human voice is)...and doing this, It becomes the "main instrument" of the song where the rest of the instruments are more 'backing it up' into lesser consciousness. I listen to music seriously for about an hour a day; and this is how I do it... I'll listen to the song from bass with focus (back of the head) then start the track again; rhythm guitar as focus.. then repeat with backing vocals in focus etc.

As far as hearing the music.. (it's kind of silly to be saying this)...well for me, the rhythm which a guitar may play (the staggering of time between notes) very easily translates to rhythm much like a drummer produces or like how _exactly _rainfalls on a roof if you focus on it. Every instrument has to have (and is only) a dimension of frequency and a dimension of duration. I guess it's comes very easy for me to erase the dimension of frequency from all of the instruments at once..and to hear music in rhythm--like ticks of time. Or maybe if you made all of the instruments of the same sound -a raindrop striking a roof-...the music would sound like a rainstorm to the untrained ear.

For this reason, music with well done syncopation hits me real hard...which is why I'd prefer to listen to a trio jazz band than an average pop song. I can listen to the jazz song with 4 or 5 different experiences but it's more difficult to hold focus on a 1-2-3-4 repeating beat drum track and a guitar (and other sounds;.. I don't know what) which are drowned out by over domineering vocals. Maybe the vocal track has excellent lines- they're usually pretty good- I guess I need more stimulation than that for the music to be worth listening to.


(..my perceiving pair is Ni-Se by the way)


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> Yes, this is sort of the analysis that I'm looking for
> 
> For replaying music, do you find yourself improvising ontop the harmonics? If I'm tuned into the track irrespective of whether I've heard it or not before, I can often overlay it with a sort of accompaniment just be being in tune with the rhythms. When this process is dumbed down and I'm listening to a familiar song, I will play it back with a sort of echo in the back of my mind/throat (micro-movement but without actual sound). At face value, this sort of harmonization of body to music would seem Se but it really depends on what is the focal point; A focus on syncing up with the music v.s. the attention to the echo being played back. The improv case may be more Se oriented as it's taking an active orientation towards responding to stimuli.
> 
> Also, what sort of Ne tangents do you go on with music?


Well, I don't think I do entirely what you do. I also don't know if I go on any "Ne-tangents". The funny thing is when it comes to music, my brain does something entirely different than it normally does. Usually when I think, I really do kind of have the stereotypical "Christmas tree" brain where I'm just all over the place, wild ideas and thoughts racing and connecting and broadening and everything. But when it comes to music, my thoughts become suddenly more focused for once. I think music is one of the only things that allows me to experience "flow". I feel like every bit of myself is perfectly "in tune" (lol) to the music. I feel in sync. 

I'm actually very kinesthetic (it is my learning style) as well as auditory, so I've heard people tell me that when I sing or listen to music, my whole body gets into it. When I sing I apparently do something with my arm (although apparently it doesn't look weird -- it's just entirely unintentional). I will sometimes, if it feels right, tap my foot to the beat. I can anticipate every little bit of the music. I'm not concentrating on what comes next, but I do feel the rise and fall, you could say, of the overall sound. Even though I am not the leader, I feel as though I am the conductor in that moment. 

A lot of this probably has more to do with music being my area of "expertise" you could say. For other Ne-doms, the experience might be entirely different. I do know that I think I focus on a different thing than a Se-user does. I look at a song as a whole and feel it as a whole. I view it as an art piece where you cannot stand close to it but you must stand back to get the impression of it. 



> I'm also sensitive to music although I never form an active opinion over it. The distinctions I make are generally with regards to harmony vs disharmony as if I can see myself interface with it. The other pole is with regards to emotional _affects_ which happen with "spiritual" type stuff (e.g. choral) or when they are linked to visual contents (like a movie). These cues are literal triggers to my inferior Fe.


Haha, I actually usually can tell pretty quickly whether or not I like whatever music is playing. Usually within the first couple of seconds. Sometimes my reaction is: meh. Mainstream, nothing spectacular. Sometimes it is: that is disgusting. Sometimes it is: Ooohh I can tell this is gonna be good. It doesn't matter what genre it is or whether not it has vocals. 



> On a related topic, there was a TED talk on using music to direct attention to products (placement) which yielded greater sales. Julian Treasure: The 4 ways sound affects us | Video on TED.com


That was really cool to watch! Yeah, stores really need to stop playing loud awful music. I can never walk into Abercrombie simply because 

1) I cannot breathe (lol) 

and

2) They don't just play regular awful pop music, they play even worse disgusting synthesized canned stuff, "processed" music, at exceedingly high volume. 

I seriously will not go into that shop. Even if the clothing was to be called the best quality, I'd walk away. 



> Yep, when those art/music critics refer to "refined taste", what do they really mean I wonder?


I think that all depends on the person. Some people look at the structure of the music and if it has amazing structure, they'll call it "good". For me I simply listen and decide whether or not I like it. Usually it depends on a couple of variables. For one, if any instrument is out of tune or doesn't sound "pleasant to the ear", that greatly takes away from the overall sound. And if there are vocals, I do like listening for a voice that has "character" and if they are using their voice in an artistic way (and I do like for their voice to be able to carry a tune). Of course, if I am listening to a choir I listen for good blending and pitch. 

Arrangement means a lot. The composition and arrangement of a piece of music (and after that, the carrying out of it) is everything. It doesn't have to have perfect structure. But it does have to have good sound. The instruments and music should "blend" and create an art piece. And of course, we will not all agree as humans which art piece is the best or the most beautiful. A lot of the depends on how you experience it and your own personal taste. 

As humans we all do agree that certain sounds are "bad" and other sounds are "good". So we know that a song where somebody is singing off key with an out of tune guitar is bad. 

One thing to look at is where the composer derived their style from. Style greatly fuels and shapes arrangement and composition. If a person's style comes entirely from the genre they are in, then that composer is doing it wrong. Each composer must bring his or her own style and unique perspective to the table. Otherwise you get something that sounds "meh" and "mainstream" even though the music may sound "tolerable" and "pleasant". That doesn't mean a composer has to come up with a new genre or anything. It is just like art, where the artist is trying to bring to light for people a new idea or perspective or twist on something, even though it might be on a subject or drawn in a similar style, but it still evokes a new _something. _Or gives them something to think about. 

The composer has an essence or feeling or something in mind -- a vision -- when they create their piece. It is their job to get that across to other people without having to explain before or after what that essence is. Of course, that doesn't mean the listeners are going to understand everything, but they will if the composer is successful get a sort of feeling, a small piece of what the composer intended. They feel a small bit of what the composer felt. 

Someone who has good taste in music will be able to draw a line between "mainstream" stuff (which I define as people who really don't bring anything new to the table and derive their style entirely from the genre they are in) and "real" stuff. Of course, everybody will have their own tastes in this music. You know, some people prefer impressionistic art and some people prefer really striking realistic styles. Some people like Picaso more than Vermeer. In the same way peoples' taste in music will differ. 

For example, I think heavy metal can actually be "good". I simply do not prefer it. I like more acoustic sounds. 



> Ha, would be awesome if we could poll the internet or perc on how they interpret music (hmm, youtube videos). But to tie any of this to cog function would be difficult as low-level stuff for processing are so habitual and most people are focused on their visual attention rather than auditory (there was some lopsided statistic on the bandwidth of visual vs auditory information).
> 
> In any case, I'm looking for more ways of delineating sound to music processing with respect to the perceiving functions. All suggests are welcome!


You'd just have to find videos where there was very little visual stuff to focus on... or simply tell people to keep that music playing in a different tab and not even look at the video at all? XD Well, in any case, this is fascinating. ^_^ Great thread.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

@*Julia Bell*

Great response btw and sorry for the late reply.

I do have a theory in the works regarding the role of music and its ability to connect with the unconscious self; in the process, the inferior function is also activated but not in a negative auto-rejection-by-dom-function way. This came from your observations that you often "felt" music but the term in the contexts that you've placed it in is more of a visceral reaction like the other Si users. The other observation came from the distinction you made regarding the normal "Christmas tree" brain pattering (Nardi's context) when "thinking" compared to the focused attention you have with music that puts you into the "flow" state. 

So to expound on this last point some more, how long can you maintain the "flow" state when you're involved with music? Generally, the flow state is reached when a sort of immersion with an activity prompts a really strong positive feedback loop. If one were to associate this with cog function theory, it'll look like an activity that dangles a carrot right out of reach in front of all the developed functions and so would compel one to chase it. It is clear that you physically respond to music but from knowledge of how the inferior function works, it has both the all-or-nothing effect while also being the key to a sense of wholeness. This relates to the existence of certain activities that hit all the functions in a way that wouldn't oppose their use... a "transcendent" (jungian) activity of sorts and perhaps music is that very thing for you.


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## RoSoDude (Apr 3, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> @*Julia Bell*
> 
> Great response btw and sorry for the late reply.
> 
> ...


I definitely buy this. Music has always been the only thing that can bring out Fe in me in a healthy way, and often I find it seems to be filtered through Si rather than my stronger functions. Granted, a lot of music appeals to my Ti and Ne, but generally the way I listen to music is more about the emotion I feel present in it (I'm most attracted to darkness and melancholy) and how my experience of the music changes over time (Si). A good example for me is Tool; at its core, the music is really about the sound and the emotion it brings out, but once I'm drawn in, I start to piece together all of the rhythmic and harmonic complexity of the music with my stronger functions and the meanings of the lyrics appeal to both my Ti and my Fe. It's really quite an experience for me.


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

I think Ni would search for hidden meanings in the music; also multiples interpretations of it.


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## Saoirse1969 (Aug 10, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> Yes, this is sort of the analysis that I'm looking for
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man I'm so amped by this subject you've brought up!! Music has always been so much a part of my life & my family's life that I'm shocked when I hear someone say, they're not that familiar with music or didn't get into music until way later in life, or.... (this one's a doozy) Only really know of a song or 2... literally. 

Ok, now back to your questions...I hope this sort of covers it all but for me I experience music in colors, scents, atmospherically. For example: When I hear certain songs from childhood, I remember the color of our old house, the food smells, the way I felt, good or bad I'm transported back to that time (Sentimentality) I also like powerful music that I can almost taste and feel in my chest (like an auditory earthquake) Strings & drums are a natural draw for me.

When I like certain songs, styles, ect it's for different reasons such as: It brings to my mind a favorite season (Autumn), my favorite color (Periwinkle), or reminds me of being in love (Woo!)... I actually see colors with all songs unless I hate the music then it's like a brillo pad on my back! Ugggg.

I have so many thoughts coming to my brain on this subject that it's jamming the "machine" and I'm starting to become less than lucid in my delivery. My apologies. :blushed:


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

This is a scarily technical thread so I don't know if this helps. I am sensitive to the rhythm of the piece first, followed by melodies and harmonies and lastly the lyrics. I will listen to all sorts of crappy lyrics because I hardly hear them if the rhythm is syncopated well, the melodies and harmonies are dynamic and the song keeps surprising me. Ballads are the worst, I never listen to them.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> @*Julia Bell*
> 
> Great response btw and sorry for the late reply.
> 
> ...


No problem and thank you.  

I think I can see that sort of connection. I do believe music (at least definitely in my case) connects my conscious self to the unconscious. I see that in all sorts of art forms, actually, which is part of why I think art so important. I quite honestly don't know how long I can maintain that flow state. I've got nothing to prove such a thing. However, if I were to guess, I would say there are times throughout an entire song (say if it's a song I've figured out by ear that I love or a song I have composed or quite simply a song I put everything into) or at least close to the entire song that I feel I maintain that "flow" state. 

I do think that music is that "transcendent" thing for me. ^_^


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## zethry (Nov 15, 2011)

I anticipate music, especially familiar music, but even with new pieces my brain tries to figure out what note will be next sometimes. Like, I'll sort of sing along with songs I don't know, if that makes sense. And music definitely triggers thoughts and emotions. And it sparks my imagination. Like I "see" the music in my head--not like synesthetes do, but in my imaginatinon I see what the music looks like. Like if it sounds like waves, I see the ocean. And Vaughn Williams's Lark Ascending relly does sound like a bird flying and gliding on the air, so that's what I see--though, of course, the title no doubt helped me to get to that conclusion.

Of course, I thought everyone did this... On the other hand my cousin has synesthesia and she thought everyone percieved the world like she did, so I guess we all assume (at least sometimes) that people percieve what we do to some degree.

And I'm not sure I understand what is meant by kinesthetically harmonize, so an explanation would be nice. :3


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

zethry said:


> And I'm not sure I understand what is meant by kinesthetically harmonize, so an explanation would be nice. :3


You move to the beat or rhythm. Also, there's a case of semi-auditory readers that slightly move parts of their throat to intonate the sounds as if to hum them (imperceptibly). That is, if I recall a piece of music (mentally play it back as if I'm hearing it), I will do this throat thing to sync with the recalled object. Conversely, if I don't do this throat thing, then I find it harder to mentally recall + replicate the work. The two actions are inextricably linked together through Kinesthetic learning in my own case. Whether this can be tied to either Se or Si I do not know.


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## zethry (Nov 15, 2011)

nonnaci said:


> You move to the beat or rhythm. Also, there's a case of semi-auditory readers that slightly move parts of their throat to intonate the sounds as if to hum them (imperceptibly). That is, if I recall a piece of music (mentally play it back as if I'm hearing it), I will do this throat thing to sync with the recalled object. Conversely, if I don't do this throat thing, then I find it harder to mentally recall + replicate the work. The two actions are inextricably linked together through Kinesthetic learning in my own case. Whether this can be tied to either Se or Si I do not know.


Not sure if I do this...  Hmm...Well, at least I'm pretty sure that I don't do the subvocalizing thing with my throat...or at least, I've never noticed that I do it if I do. :3
Thanks for the explanation!


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

When I listen to music I am neutral towards, I obviously don't process it at all.

When I listen to music I like/love, I take in every nuance of the sound fully and relish every part. The smallest part of interesting background music or the voice twist in a few seconds can endear me to a song.

I like to know the meanings of songs I listen to, and often listen to happy songs when I am excited, sad songs when I'm feeling unhappy, and fast-paced songs when I feel energetic. 

When I replay songs in my head, I replay the bits I like again and again, and often like singing them to myself.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> When I listen to music I am neutral towards, I obviously don't process it at all.
> 
> When I listen to music I like/love, I take in every nuance of the sound fully and relish every part. The smallest part of interesting background music or the voice twist in a few seconds can endear me to a song.


What do you do when you listen to music you hate?


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