# .



## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

shameless said:


> Yeah I would like person qualified please
> 
> I look at how their hair looks. I do not mean the face part. But like their actual hairs health.


What you should do is find the person with the best hair, and ask who in the salon does theirs.


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## 98403942 (Feb 10, 2021)

Ms. Aligned said:


> Not really a fair comparison. It would be more like if most of the people you've seen using axes were psycho murders, is it still mandatory they carry one for you to like them? No.
> 
> But, fair enough. Also, there is a very big bias here that you're not addressing. For example, again as a hairstylist, I'd laugh when someone would walk through the door and look around to pick the most attractive person and request them, thinking they were somehow better because they looked the part. I'd laugh my ass off and think to myself, "That bitch is stright out of beauty school, and I just finished doing that 15 min before you walked through the door." 🤣


Not a comparison, it was a metaphor. I'm not expecting anything to be mandatory for anyone. Where the heck did you get that idea? Live and let live, who would care enough to demand mandatory shit out of anyone? 

You can laugh all you want, your criteria for a quality friend/partner/whatever are yours alone, and to think they are somehow better than mine, that's immature as hell. You do you and I do me.


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

MH17 said:


> Not a comparison, it was a metaphor. I'm not expecting anything to be mandatory for anyone. Where the heck did you get that idea? Live and let live, who would care enough to demand mandatory shit out of anyone?
> 
> You can laugh all you want, your criteria for a quality friend/partner/whatever are yours alone, and to think they are somehow better than mine, that's immature as hell. You do you and I do me.


Aight


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## JennyJukes (Jun 29, 2012)

Ms. Aligned said:


> Wow, ye, that would have been a major deal breaker to me. Lol! Like how do you even have a conversation?


I just noticed he never came to brush his teeth with me at night. Then I noticed he didnt actually have a toothbrush in the bathroom and I did do a search around thinking he must keep it well hidden because theres no way an adult doesnt have a toothbrush. Then I started being like "hey, I'm going to brush my teeth _hint hint_". Eventually one day I blurted out "do you have a toothbrush?!" And he said "of course I do!". It was embarrassing. After that he would make sure his toothbrush was in the bathroom where I could see it. He started to slip and I'd say "please brush your teeth before coming to bed, its disrespectful to me" and he'd throw a tantrum and say he was going to he just wanted to relax first. He brushed his teeth before going to work and wore nice suits but when it came to hygiene for his girlfriend? Nah.

It makes me cringe to think about it but this is what happens when parents dont discipline their children. Mommy did all his laundry and cooking for him and he expected me to take over her role whilst also working full time. I was young and dumb but I'm grateful I got out when I did (it started getting violent) because I've watched women in my family be stuck in those kinda relationships all their life.

After we broke up he stalked me for years and made up lies about me. I saw him joking to his friends about how vanilla I was in the bed, because not wanting to be choked by a fat smelly arsehole is obviously the bigger problem here. Yeah 5 years is a lot to put up with this bullshit and I'm sure most people here will say they wouldnt put up with it for 5 mins but it's not as simple as that. I moved across the country to live with him and escape an abusive household and then I had nowhere to flee to. Hence, I became homeless.

So no, ugly people are not necessarily nice people. They are not a safe bet. They will not treat you nicely because they see how lucky they are to have you and want to keep you. Just because I tried to make up for my perceived worthlessness by being nice, doesnt mean other people think that way. Some get bitter and hateful and take it out on people they're jealous of or think are weak. Keep your standards high and you'll never get into my position.

Alls well that ends well. Thanks to my experience I have a good job in a field that I do well in because I have lived experience. It helped me pay my debt, buy my own house and never depend on anyone ever again. After stealing all my friends and stalking and harassing me for years, I simply told them all he didnt own a toothbrush. They made fun of him and he vanished and none of us have heard from him in 2 years. Karma. I'm sure hes browsing redpill forums as we speak though 👌


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

JennyJukes said:


> I just noticed he never came to brush his teeth with me at night. Then I noticed he didnt actually have a toothbrush in the bathroom and I did do a search around thinking he must keep it well hidden because theres no way an adult doesnt have a toothbrush. Then I started being like "hey, I'm going to brush my teeth _hint hint_". Eventually one day I blurted out "do you have a toothbrush?!" And he said "of course I do!". It was embarrassing. After that he would make sure his toothbrush was in the bathroom where I could see it. He started to slip and I'd say "please brush your teeth before coming to bed, its disrespectful to me" and he'd throw a tantrum and say he was going to he just wanted to relax first. He brushed his teeth before going to work and wore nice suits but when it came to hygiene for his girlfriend? Nah.
> 
> It makes me cringe to think about it but this is what happens when parents dont discipline their children. Mommy did all his laundry and cooking for him and he expected me to take over her role whilst also working full time. I was young and dumb but I'm grateful I got out when I did (it started getting violent) because I've watched women in my family be stuck in those kinda relationships all their life.
> 
> ...


You sound extremely resilient. Good for you, dude!

Yeah, you can be unattractive physically, but physically and emotionally/mentally/personality unattractive is just a troll. Also, needs to be reminded to brush *and* wants a mommy. _icky chill_


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

Jenny damnit, now I feel guilty for not at least getting up and showering because I'm sick today. This is going to be like a new mantra for me. "Don't be Jenny's ex, groom yourself."

_rolls off of bed and crawls to the bathroom_


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## JennyJukes (Jun 29, 2012)

Ms. Aligned said:


> Jenny damnit, now I feel guilty for not at least getting up and showering because I'm sick today. This is going to be like a new mantra for me. "Don't be Jenny's ex, groom yourself."
> 
> _rolls off of bed and crawls to the bathroom_


Me every time my neighbours fire alarm goes off and I imagine being rescued by hot firefighters in last night's pyjamas with greasy hair. Biggest motivator to keep clean 👌


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

MH17 said:


> Somebody criticize me for making this thread. Go ahead, I fucking quadruple dare you.


But it’s like this is your underlying desire. You keep mentioning it. That’s probably why people keep accusing you of taking things personally. It seems...personal. You say you see yourself as a power ranger, here to liberate the masses of their ignorance, but the way this discussion is framed it’s like you really want and invite opposition. It doesn’t have the tone of just passing along information.

Since truth is so important to you then you need to be honest with yourself about why this particular topic stirs up your passions so much. Maybe you got victimized too much. Morality-shamed. Made to feel like a bad person for having preferences, and that didn’t sit well with you. Maybe I don’t know anything.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Ms. Aligned said:


> But, fair enough. Also, there is a very big bias here that you're not addressing. For example, again as a hairstylist, I'd laugh when someone would walk through the door and look around to pick the most attractive person and request them, thinking they were somehow better because they looked the part. I'd laugh my ass off and think to myself, "That bitch is stright out of beauty school, and I just finished doing that 15 min before you walked through the door." 🤣


Why do the best hairstylist always have a simple hairstyle with like a basic ass ponytail? The best nail techs don’t even wear false nails. They have plain, short fingernails with no polish or buffing. And the most creative fashion designers are wearing all black every single day lol

*just seems like it


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## 98403942 (Feb 10, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> But it’s like this is your underlying desire. You keep mentioning it. That’s probably why people keep accusing you of taking things personally. It seems...personal. You say you see yourself as a power ranger, here to liberate the masses of their ignorance, but the way this discussion is framed it’s like you really want and invite opposition. It doesn’t have the tone of just passing along information.
> 
> Since truth is so important to you then you need to be honest with yourself about why this particular topic stirs up your passions so much. Maybe you got victimized too much. Morality-shamed. Made to feel like a bad person for having preferences, and that didn’t sit well with you. Maybe I don’t know anything.


None of this happened to me, but I am mentally capable of translating somebody else's harrowing experience and realize that it's very, very bad. Combine that with the fact that it can be easily prevented if correct information is not suppressed, and you get the passion. Just a few posts back JennyJukes said she wasted five years on somebody because of this lack of awareness and transparency. Like she also said, I couldn't deal wasting 5 minutes. Took five years off of her life's enjoyment. And then there was the homeless hiatus it hurled her into. I guess the fact that Im not a christian and I can't dispassionately see others burning in hell made me flare up with such passion.


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> Why do the best hairstylist always have a simple hairstyle with like a basic ass ponytail? The best nail techs don’t even wear false nails. They have plain, short fingernails with no polish or buffing. And the most creative fashion designers are wearing all black every single day lol
> 
> *just seems like it


They're too busy working, and it's the last thing you want to think about in your off time. 🤣


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

A person’s attractiveness is subjective, and can be based on many factors, although some features have been found to be universally desirable. However, for me, sometimes it changes based on how I view their character and my experience with the person.

I’ve met people I considered unattractive on first sight, but as I got to know them and like them, I also saw their physical features as more pleasing. The opposite has also happened, where someone who I thought was very attractive became less so when their behavior was appalling to me.

The conclusion I’ve drawn from this is a person’s looks cannot be a standard when forming relationships, but the fact that my perception adapts based on my desire to be around them shows there is some psychological link between beauty and likability.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

MH17 said:


> None of this happened to me, but I am mentally capable of translating somebody else's harrowing experience and realize that it's very, very bad. Combine that with the fact that it can be easily prevented if correct information is not suppressed, and you get the passion. Just a few posts back JennyJukes said she wasted five years on somebody because of this lack of awareness and transparency. Like she also said, I couldn't deal wasting 5 minutes. Took five years off of her life's enjoyment. And then there was the homeless hiatus it hurled her into. I guess the fact that Im not a christian and I can't dispassionately see others burning in hell made me flare up with such passion.


This is the second time you and I have talked about your desire to watch things burn in a cleanse it with fire kind of way. Maybe it’s pure altruism. But I doubt it. I don’t know if you’re a walking, talking, secular prophet looking out for your fellow brethren. But whatever the case is, you got no chill whatsoever.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

Wait, why does it matter for who you're friends with tho? Lol


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## laluna (2 mo ago)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Wait, why does it matter for who you're friends with tho? Lol


i wondered that too. It doesn't to him. The title just wasn't super clear. 👾


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

This is (kind of) looks related (because there are no looks) and brining your "value" to others: 

The best feeling recently for me was to connect via zoom on a meeting, no make up/hair (sometimes without camera, sometimes on), 100% guys in meeting, they only care about what I speak and want to impress me how they already knew this. 😂 At first I was bothered, like, just do it without bragging/commenting who knows what better, but now I think this is positive and good for collaboration.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

We're not equating looks with hygiene and health are we?


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

MH17 said:


> Feel free to bullshit how you're all about the personality, character and you're completely unaffected by how a person looks, nothing, nada, zed, and I'm a horrible, shallow person that ought to be ostracized and singled out as a bad example, a nuisance to your 'spiritual values', right here.


If you really focus on looks that much, it would be significantly easier for you (assuming you are already not able to do it naturally) to "learn" how to see people based on their inner values, and other inner characteristics, including "vibes", energy, and recently I think even our "karma points" are observable.


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## JennyJukes (Jun 29, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> We're not equating looks with hygiene and health are we?


Why not? Hygiene tends to affect the way you look. I know there's plenty good looking people who don't take care of their hygiene and still look great because they were born with it or can afford expensive cover ups, but typically if you lack hygiene your looks will too.

If I've had a WFH day where it's been so stressful I haven't even got changed, I can look at myself in the mirror and feel disgusting. If I shower, brush my hair, and wear something decent, I feel 100x more attractive based on cleanliness. No make-up or short skirts required.

Someone clean and dressed well >>>>>> Someone genetically attractive with nice clothes but lacking in hygiene or having a bad personality


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

laluna said:


> i wondered that too. It doesn't to him. The title just wasn't super clear. 👾





Ms. Aligned said:


> As far as friends go. What? Who cares if they're attractive?





MH17 said:


> I do. Have I not specifically said that?


...


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Squirt said:


> What about people who lack hygiene in their living spaces? Does that influence their looks, too? Like is a guy standing next to a plate of moldy pizza as attractive as one standing next to freshly washed linens?


@intranst I’m so glad you laughed. That was supposed to be funny, lol.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

laluna said:


> I don't understand people that don't want to work though. Working is fun for me.


Are you talking about working a job too, or just working to attract a mate?


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

to be friends tho?


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## laluna (2 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Are you talking about working a job too, or just working to attract a mate?


General work, working a job, working on myself on many levels, helping people outside of work and I have two side projects so yep generally working is fun. 😊


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

MH17 said:


> Cowardly sticking to ignorance and convenient denial of reality is inferior to facing facts and pursuing knowledge. My understanding of 'holier than thou' is when it's unfound. This isn't unfound. It's the foundest premise I've seen.
> 
> Denying something fundamental is stupid, very, very fucking stupid indeed, so there, I've said it before and I just said it again. If I wanted a fight I would go into the political section and start praising one side and shitting on the other. Idgaf about a fight. I want to help whoever can read to collide them with something I have found to be true, because I don't see anybody else doing anything constructive. Just a circle-jerk of 'we are innately amazing and anybody who dares to disagree can go to hell', ads and misinformation to the same effect. I prefer to live in the real world and I am doing what I would appreciate something somebody did for me in the past: tell me what the reality is instead of bamboozling me with sweet lies for whatever reasons. And I have accomplished exactly that. What people do with it, idc. You do what you can.


The problem is you only believe what you see. And just because you can’t see anyone else doing anything constructive about the issue doesn’t make it true. You do not know everyone in the world and you have not consumed every bit of information out there. Stop with this please. It is your own delusion of self-importance that causes you to think that you are the only one bringing truth to the people lol. Quit it! As you see, many people agree with you already.

And as for you not wanting a fight, look, if you say you’re not then you’re not. But you know you are using fighting words. And you keep challenging—nay—double dog daring people. So that’s why it looks like that is exactly what you want. Again, we are against convenient denials of reality, right? If your aim is to educate, then educate. Post some articles, share some research studies, do some character analyses for those of us learners who like some good story-driven content. Switch it up dude. The people who already agree with you haven’t changed. The people who don’t agree wouldn’t care to learn anything from all of your angry antics. 

My understanding of holier than thou is when they use theatrics and smug condescension to maintain their sense of moral superiority.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

If I find a person repulsive then no, I don’t want to be around them.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

laluna said:


> General work, working a job, working on myself on many levels, helping people outside of work and I have two side projects so yep generally working is fun. 😊


I can't relate with wanting to work a job. I've NEVER enjoyed it, and it just added too much stress to my life. I can't think of employment I'd actually enjoy......well at least any employment that is actually realistically available to me.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I can't relate with wanting to work a job. I've NEVER enjoyed it, and it just added too much stress to my life. I can't think of employment I'd actually enjoy......well at least any employment that is actually realistically available to me.


I’m with you. Baby that’s why they call it work. So “fun” they gotta pay me and threaten me with social shaming to do it lol.


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## laluna (2 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I can't relate with wanting to work a job. I've NEVER enjoyed it, and it just added too much stress to my life. I can't think of employment I'd actually enjoy......well at least any employment that is actually realistically available to me.


Sounds like a lack of positive perspective. Most basic jobs require a skill set that a job you WOULD want to work requires. Why not practice your way to the career you actually want?

I never understand why work is so demonized. What do you spend your time doing? And if you must do something to live why make it worse by maintaining a negative perspective toward it? Makes no sense to me.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

laluna said:


> Sounds like a lack of positive perspective. Most basic jobs require a skill set that a job you WOULD want to work requires. Why not practice your way to the career you actually want?
> 
> I never understand why work is so demonized. What do you spend your time doing? And if you must do something to live why make it worse by maintaining a negative perspective toward it? Makes no sense to me.


Ok, but what about for INFPs?


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

laluna said:


> Sounds like a lack of positive perspective. Most basic jobs require a skill set that a job you WOULD want to work requires. Why not practice your way to the career you actually want?
> 
> I never understand why work is so demonized. What do you spend your time doing? And if you must do something to live why make it worse by maintaining a negative perspective toward it? Makes no sense to me.


I don't work any more. I collect disability. My mental "issues" just make it so that I can't help getting stressed and overwhelmed more easily than most people, so work isn't fun. Its nothing I can help, regardless of what people wanna believe about the "control" I have.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

intranst said:


> Ok, but what about for INFPs?


Intranst with the hard hitting questions 🤣


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> Intranst with the hard hitting questions 🤣


Haha, I’m sure every INFP could live their entire life just immersed in hobbies.


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## laluna (2 mo ago)

intranst said:


> Ok, but what about for INFPs?


I'm not sure. I'm not even sure what type I am.

You have introverted feeling so it'd be hard to change your mind about something and you have extroverted intuition so probably some type of writing, maybe journalism? It requires daily work. I suggest tricking yourself by employing a Pavlov dog's type of reward system that makes the work seem inherent to your character therefore no one would be able to convince you out of it, right?


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## leftover crack (May 12, 2013)

I've seen a thread like this one a bajillion times before on this forum. The conclusion is always personal preference, and the purpose more often than not: attention seeking.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

laluna said:


> Sounds like a lack of positive perspective. Most basic jobs require a skill set that a job you WOULD want to work requires. Why not practice your way to the career you actually want?
> 
> I never understand why work is so demonized. What do you spend your time doing? And if you must do something to live why make it worse by maintaining a negative perspective toward it? Makes no sense to me.


Ya see, I am not who you were responding to. I was going to respond to you with don't you have things outside the office or where ever you work that you enjoy doing.

Then I reread what you had put and changed my answer completely. At the end of the day, I am not a billionaire, so yes work is a necessity for me, living on the streets and begging for money, strikes me as the worst of the options I currently have, so I will stick with working.

And career wise, well that is interesting. I have gone from living for the weekend to studying for my second degree so I can further my career. Honestly, I would say I am happier now than when I was unsatisfied with work, but out every single Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Granted I may have swung too hard in the study/career direction at the minute but its the final year of my part time degree, so this time next year, its over. I will need to strike a balance though. But I never want to reach the point again, where I hate those 40 odd hours a week working.


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## Unerotic (Jan 23, 2021)

Yeah. I chose the cutest cat when buying one from the market. If we look closer at the face, it has dead skin and bacteria. I never rub the floor to make it spotless, I might just take a shit, and sometimes I find corn in it. I once looked at the shit chart to see what it says about my health. Mummified people definetly look interesting, I can make up a story about them and be amused.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

leftover crack said:


> and the purpose more often than not: attention seeking.


Or maybe he's just an 8w7 looking to butt heads. teehee


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

laluna said:


> I'm not sure. I'm not even sure what type I am.
> 
> You have introverted feeling so it'd be hard to change your mind about something and you have extroverted intuition so probably some type of writing, maybe journalism? It requires daily work. I suggest tricking yourself by employing a Pavlov dog's type of reward system that makes the work seem inherent to your character therefore no one would be able to convince you out of it, right?


I know a lot of INFPs are into writing. I like the interaction of ideas like here on the forum but writing itself gets kinda tedious for me personally. Throw me on stage with Jordan Peterson for a debate, now that sounds more interesting.

Edit: Ok, maybe not JP. Someone without an agenda lol


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

intranst said:


> Haha, I’m sure every INFP could live their entire life just immersed in hobbies.


Yep. That’s flow state right there. But as soon as you have to do it to survive it no fun no more 🥺


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## maximum danger (4 mo ago)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Or maybe he's just an 8w7 looking to spar. teehee


You think an 8w9 wouldn't?


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

maximum danger said:


> You think an 8w9 wouldn't?


I didn't say that. But 8w9's are still generally a little more peaceful than 8w7's.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

8w9 tends toward passive-aggressiveness though, not my cup of tea.


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## maximum danger (4 mo ago)

intranst said:


> 8w9 tends toward passive-aggressiveness though, not my cup of tea.


That seems like bullshit. I've found most people got no idea what the wings mean for 8. w7 is an "even more" 8, and w9 is a "less of an 8", which doesn't make sense to me.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

intranst said:


> 8w9 tends toward passive-aggressiveness though, not my cup of tea.


Yesss......The little antagonistic nuances in what they say and do. I witnessed that enough and was dealt that too from my brother.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

MH17 said:


> *FIVE YEARS.*
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody criticize me for making this thread. Go ahead, I fucking quadruple dare you.


Since you dared:



MH17 said:


> None of this happened to me, but I am mentally capable of translating somebody else's harrowing experience and realize that it's very, very bad. Combine that with the fact that it can be easily prevented if correct information is not suppressed, and you get the passion. Just a few posts back JennyJukes said she wasted five years on somebody because of this lack of awareness and transparency. Like she also said, I couldn't deal wasting 5 minutes. Took five years off of her life's enjoyment. And then there was the homeless hiatus it hurled her into. I guess the fact that Im not a christian and I can't dispassionately see others burning in hell made me flare up with such passion.


I hope no one really believes @JennyJukes (or anyone) stayed in a bad relationship solely because she "tried not to be shallow about attractiveness", where bestowing the sage advice that "looks are extremely important" would suddenly open her eyes and relieve her of the dysfunction. Now that's some real bullshit.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

maximum danger said:


> That seems like bullshit. I've found most people got no idea what the wings mean for 8. w7 is an "even more" 8, and w9 is a "less of an 8", which doesn't make sense to me.


An 8w7 is more 7, and an 8w9 is more 9. 7's aren't as peaceful as 9's generally.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

Ok.
And.....?
What are we supposed to do with this info?


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

maximum danger said:


> That seems like bullshit. I've found most people got no idea what the wings mean for 8. w7 is an "even more" 8, and w9 is a "less of an 8", which doesn't make sense to me.


Enneagram is already teetering on being bullshit as it is, but the 8w9 being more passive-aggressive than 8w7 specifically is something I took note of. 8w7 just comes across as more authentic in their expression to me.


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## maximum danger (4 mo ago)

intranst said:


> Enneagram is already teetering on being bullshit as it is, but the 8w9 being more passive-aggressive than 8w7 specifically is something I took note of. 8w7 just comes across as more authentic in their expression to me.


Fair enough. I'd say your description of wings doesn't help.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Necrofantasia said:


> Ok.
> And.....?
> You overestimate the amount of shit given about this.


I'm guessing @MH17 gave this movie a 0 star review, lol.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

Squirt said:


> I'm guessing @MH17 gave this movie a 0 star review, lol.


NGL the thread title gave me DiCaprio vibes.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

maximum danger said:


> That seems like bullshit. I've found most people got no idea what the wings mean for 8. w7 is an "even more" 8, and w9 is a "less of an 8", which doesn't make sense to me.


My view on ENTJs 8w7 vs 8w9:



Antiparticle said:


> There are more differences than just wings (A vs T), but just wing differences: boundary setters (8w9) vs aggressors/boundary pushers (8w7). So you would clearly know what are the boundaries for 8w7, and not for 8w9 - they are agreeable until you push the wrong button.
> 
> Volcano-like anger (builds silently until the eruption) of the 8w9.
> 
> ...


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## TranscendingEnlightenment (7 mo ago)

> FEEL free to bullshit how you're all about the personality, character and you're completely unaffected by how a person looks, nothing, nada, zed, and I'm a horrible, shallow person that ought to be ostracized and singled out as a bad example, a nuisance to your 'spiritual values', right here.





> I FEEL like there is this gigantic bullshit stigma about appreciation for one's physical appearance.





> I'm just LASHING OUT against people's bullshit pretty much.





> This "isn't" me bitching about something that affects me directly.





> I am the power RAGER.





> Is this some kind of half-baked attempt at passive-aggressive name-calling?





> Somebody criticize me for making this thread. Go ahead, I fucking quadruple dare you.





> I am mentally capable of translating somebody else's harrowing experience and realize that it's very, very bad.





> I don't walk around advertising myself as a chill dispenser


😂🍿


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

MH17 said:


> Feel free to bullshit how you're all about the personality, character and you're completely unaffected by how a person looks, nothing, nada, zed, and I'm a horrible, shallow person that ought to be ostracized and singled out as a bad example, a nuisance to your 'spiritual values', right here.


People like to exaggerate. Are personality and character ultimately more important than looks? Of course. But how are you going to go from not knowing someone exists to knowing them well enough to appreciate them for who they are neath beneath the surface? You're not going to go and talk to a random woman under the assumption that she's attractive beneath the surface. She could be the funniest, most intelligent and most caring woman on the planet, but you wouldn't know that yet, would you(unless you're a creepy stalker or something)? You're going to approach her because her body is hypnotic, or her smile is infectious, or her eyes are alluring. You're not even going to give an ugly ting the chance to show you how awesome her personality is. And while it could indeed be your loss, you're not going to take that gamble, because it's stupid. Because if you're going to gamble anyway, which you have to, you might as well gamble smart and take that gamble with someone that's pleasing on your senses.

Minnie Ripperton and her husband put it best when they wrote that classic. "Lovin you, is easy cause you're beautiful".

However, there are some exceptions to this. In school/college/university and some work places, you'll often find yourself having to work with people and they can grow on you. And then there are also the great equalisers in life, aka persistence and resilience.

But none of the above exceptions are as good as simply working on one's appearance. Which is why sugar coating shit like this is really bad for ugly people. It gives them a reason to procrastinate and be lazy about their appearance. And more often than not, simply changing diet and adopting good skincare routines can elevate someone's appearance from a 3 to a 6 in as little 1 to 2 years. Throw in some fashion sense and a better understanding of what scents work for them, and they can go to a 7 or even an 8.

That's not to say that personality and character don't matter. On the contrary. Even if appearance is the reason people will come and sit at your table, it's usually what you have going on in the inside that gets them to stay.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Antiparticle said:


> My view on ENTJs 8w7 vs 8w9:


Good stuff, I would conclude that neither is better than the other on the extreme end of things.


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## SouDesuNyan (Sep 8, 2015)

I think it's fine that people have different preferences when seeking friendship or romantic relationships. It's also fine for some people to think that that's superficial and try to start an argument with you. It's also fine for people who don't care about other people's preference, like me.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

I wouldn't date someone I wasn't attracted to (now). Younger me learned that lesson. 

*However*, that doesn't inherently equate to conventually attractive... I say this because I forced myself to try to be attracted to someone because i was _supposed to be. _i was told that my boyfriend was super hot and stuff, but _I wasn't personally attracted to him. _I tried to force that because he was very nice and really liked me and I could see _WHY he should be attractive.... but _it never came. I called it off at the three month mark because that wasn't fair to him. 

That guy is supposedly the hottest I'll probably ever be able to get and i didn't think so at all.... which I think goes to show people are attracted to what they're attracted to.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

intranst said:


> Good stuff, I would conclude that neither is better than the other on the extreme end of things.


I think I would deal easier with 8w7 because for me it’s worse to have the suspension (8w9); better get the anger out and we are done/problem solved.

My understanding is that 1 and 8 combination is not famous for the harmony in relationships, although at work it usually works.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

ENFPathetic said:


> But none of the above exceptions are as good as simply working on one's appearance. Which is why sugar coating shit like this is really bad for ugly people. It gives them a reason to procrastinate and be lazy about their appearance. And more often than not, simply changing diet and adopting good skincare routines can elevate someone's appearance from a 3 to a 6 in as little 1 to 2 years. Throw in some fashion sense and a better understanding of what scents work for them, and they can go to a 7 or even an 8.


There are billion-dollar beauty industries built around this claim. I don't think it is sugar-coating to question how healthy it really is to focus so much on appearances, and more importantly, to question who it is that you are serving by doing so.


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## TranscendingEnlightenment (7 mo ago)




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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

I like this idea of discussing how looks influence in general but if we narrow down to monogamous relationships and your threshold for someone’s looks goes sky high because of that, that sounds like a problem to me. Have sex with whoever you want, but if you choose to commit to one person I imagine you’re in it for more than just looks, otherwise why commit?


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

intranst said:


> Good stuff, I would conclude that neither is better than the other on the extreme end of things.


Not sure what are the relations of 4s and 8s, but could be similar to 1-8. If you are interested in romantic relationship I would advise us both no (for both wings) 😸 especially EXTJ.

edit: My 2000th post, yay 🙃🎉


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Antiparticle said:


> Not sure what are the relations of 4s and 8s, but could be similar to 1-8. If you are interested in romantic relationship I would advise us both no (for both wings) 😸 especially EXTJ.
> 
> edit: My 2000th post, yay 🙃🎉


Haha I appreciate the advice but I’ve concluded that ENTJs and INFPs are the most compatible with each other, enneagram isn’t solid enough for me to implement into that yet though.


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## maximum danger (4 mo ago)

Antiparticle said:


> Not sure what are the relations of 4s and 8s, but could be similar to 1-8. If you are interested in romantic relationship I would advise us both no (for both wings) 😸 especially EXTJ.
> 
> edit: My 2000th post, yay 🙃🎉


I know an INFJ who's insanely similar to you. Same contradictory nature. She also uses all those fkin cat emojis, too.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

maximum danger said:


> I know an INFJ who's insanely similar to you. Same contradictory nature. She also uses all those fkin cat emojis, too.


 I took the cat emojis from best ENTP friend. What contradictory nature?


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## maximum danger (4 mo ago)

Antiparticle said:


> I took the cat emojis from best ENTP friend. What contradictory nature?


The kind that's hard to explain in words. And she did too, funnily enough.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

maximum danger said:


> The kind that's hard to explain in words. And she did too, funnily enough.


We both took the cat emojis from our best ENTP friend?


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## maximum danger (4 mo ago)

Antiparticle said:


> We both took the cat emojis from our best ENTP friend?


Yes, but he used it ironically and she started to as well, and then it became unironic for her overtime.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Squirt said:


> There are billion-dollar beauty industries built around this claim. I don't think it is sugar-coating to question how healthy it really is to focus so much on appearances, and more importantly, to question who it is that you are serving by doing so.


If we're comparing extremes, being obsessed with appearance is worse than being neglectful of it. However neither is healthy, and suggesting that appearance does not matter is definitely sugar coating the reality and far from helpful.

But you bring up a good point. There are lot of powerful and influential players that will try to take advantage of your ignorance and offer you some magic weight loss potion or have you believe that the brand is more important than the actual clothes. This is almost inescapable. You'd have to get rid of your TV and smart phone to escape only some of the constant pushing towards mindless consumerism in every facet of one's life. There is no helping that. You will have to take the risk you're going to get shafted a few times before you figure out what you're doing. Or you could be smart and ask your GP for guidance and take a friend who has good taste with you when you're going clothes shopping. There are many inexpensive ways to approach it. You're bound to find something that works for you rather than against you.

For example. If you have a sweet tooth and spend 20 pounds a week on cakes and haribos. Spend that 20 pounds on your favourite fruits. You still get to satisfy your sweet tooth and you can't overdose on them because you'll quickly get full whereas with the processed shit, you're more likely to feel sick from all the sugar long before you get full. Budget is unchanged. Satisfaction is comparable if not outright better and it's way kinder to your waistline. That's a win/win/win.

The people who start spending way more money on food and clothing are the people who try to swap one extreme for another and usually those same people are the ones who don't commit. Don't alter how much you spend. Alter what you spend it on. There are so many really good videos on youtube that help with ideas on eating clean on super low budgets.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Squirt said:


> I'm guessing @MH17 gave this movie a 0 star review, lol.


Perfection.



intranst said:


> Haha I appreciate the advice but I’ve concluded that ENTJs and INFPs are the most compatible with each other, enneagram isn’t solid enough for me to implement into that yet though.


You are a dog with a bone sir. You have been a sight to behold INFP.


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## laluna (2 mo ago)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> Ya see, I am not who you were responding to. I was going to respond to you with don't you have things outside the office or where ever you work that you enjoy doing.
> 
> Then I reread what you had put and changed my answer completely. At the end of the day, I am not a billionaire, so yes work is a necessity for me, living on the streets and begging for money, strikes me as the worst of the options I currently have, so I will stick with working.
> 
> And career wise, well that is interesting. I have gone from living for the weekend to studying for my second degree so I can further my career. Honestly, I would say I am happier now than when I was unsatisfied with work, but out every single Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Granted I may have swung too hard in the study/career direction at the minute but its the final year of my part time degree, so this time next year, its over. I will need to strike a balance though. But I never want to reach the point again, where I hate those 40 odd hours a week working.


Exactly! It's difficult and tiring but feels so much better than having no plan and working toward someone else's dream.

Good work!


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

ENFPathetic said:


> If we're comparing extremes, being obsessed with appearance is worse than being neglectful of it. However neither is healthy, and *suggesting that appearance does not matter* is definitely sugar coating the reality and far from helpful.


I'm not sure who makes that claim literally. I hear it sometimes in the context of trying to cheer someone up who believes they can't have a good relationship (and apparently for MH17 even a friendship) because they don't meet some beauty standard.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Squirt said:


> I'm guessing @MH17 gave this movie a 0 star review, lol.


Ok. Let's look at the facts.

He only hit on ugly women. Fair. So he had a very good chance, because of looks.










Also, it's funny how most women fantasy romance movies are about average women being able to secure a Chad (50 Shades of Grey), while most men fantasy romance movies are about ugly men being able to secure a hot woman because of their soul. It's like it's everything about looks at the end of the day.

Almost like this:




It's a nice fantasy world. "We are all able to score up because of our souls".

To be noted key word 'score up'. And words like 'out of your league' and such.


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

She's not ugly.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

Let’s conclude: everyone looks good with a lot of money, so, everything is about money.


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## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

Antiparticle said:


> Let’s conclude: everyone looks good with a lot of money, so, everything is about money.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Squirt said:


> I'm not sure who makes that claim literally. I hear it sometimes in the context of trying to cheer someone up who believes they can't have a good relationship (and apparently for MH17 even a friendship) because they don't meet some beauty standard.


That is the usual context.

I'm down with challenging the one size fits all beauty standard pushed by magazines. A standard that purposefully excludes more women than it includes. But I'm not down with "cheering" up a friend by pretending that looks don't matter.

If your friend is not actually ugly, but feels ugly because she reads too many magazines, then lying to her and pretending that looks don't matter is not helpful. Telling her she's not ugly and that these magazines are only helpful for women who have a naturally petite frame similar to the models showing off the outfits. For someone with a larger frame, a size 0 figure would look shit. Like she's starving. You see it with a lot of runway models. They're figure does not complement their natural frame and they look like they're about to die.

The friendship thing is wild to me, and OP might even be joking, but I've noticed a pattern where being attractive = better treatment in general from everyone, including people who don't have a romantic interest. I might have that bias as well and I just don't notice it. It doesn't make sense in the way that wanting your romantic partner to be attractive makes sense. After all, you don't have to wake up next to your friend or look at their naked body, so why should it matter how attractive they are? Yet I'm confident that if you carried out a study where you had an attractive person and an unattractive person with the same temperament and attitude interact with regular people throughout the day, you would find that the more attractive person generally got treated better.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

intranst said:


> Haha I appreciate the advice but I’ve concluded that ENTJs and INFPs are the most compatible with each other, enneagram isn’t solid enough for me to implement into that yet though.


Pretty high


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Antiparticle said:


> Pretty high
> 
> View attachment 911645


Honestly surprised to see it, but it’ll all make sense to you guys once my book is finished (jokes).


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

ENFPathetic said:


> That is the usual context.
> 
> I'm down with challenging the one size fits all beauty standard pushed by magazines. A standard that purposefully excludes more women than it includes. But I'm not down with "cheering" up a friend by pretending that looks don't matter.
> 
> ...


I think the last paragraph can be explained that people simply like looking at and being around beautiful people. This is especially important for romantic relationships, but doesn't exclude platonic or friendship relationships. Ever heard about a guy being cast out from a group of friends in highschool because he was too ugly? I have. In all fairness, those guys were assholes, but the fact remains that the assholes excluded the ugly one not the good looking one.

This may be my own bias at play, but as someone who was born genetically good looking, then got bad looking due to becoming overweight, then becoming good looking again and ever more due to hitting the gym and getting ripped; I feel that I have a much better understanding of both sides of the spectrum than most people.

Yes, people treat you very different based on your looks. A lot. Clients prefer a good looking partner, salesman or spokesperson. Whether it's a good looking male or female doesn't matter. Sure, ood looking males do better with female clients and vice-versa (for obvious reasons). But even male clients would prefer a good looking man over a regular man as their spokesperson. Looks can carry you in life. Having looks is really a privilege. In fact, I would even go as far as saying that the more good-looking you are the more of an asshole you can afford to be.

Ever seen those typical American high school movies? or stuff like that in real life? How comes the jerks are always good looking people? Because if it was an ugly looking people being a jerk everybody would ostracize him and reject him. He would have no girls, no friends, no social life. But since they are the jacks, the hot good looking guys who are also ripped and also in the school's football class (popularity), they can afford being an assholes and people would still accept them for it, because popularity and good looks, because they have other qualities that compensate them being an asshole.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

ENFPathetic said:


> That is the usual context.
> 
> I'm down with challenging the one size fits all beauty standard pushed by magazines. A standard that purposefully excludes more women than it includes. But I'm not down with "cheering" up a friend by pretending that looks don't matter.
> 
> If your friend is not actually ugly, but feels ugly because she reads too many magazines, then lying to her and pretending that looks don't matter is not helpful. Telling her she's not ugly and that these magazines are only helpful for women who have a naturally petite frame similar to the models showing off the outfits. For someone with a larger frame, a size 0 figure would look shit. Like she's starving. You see it with a lot of runway models. They're figure does not complement their natural frame and they look like they're about to die.


I wouldn’t read so much into the gesture.



ENFPathetic said:


> The friendship thing is wild to me, and OP might even be joking, but I've noticed a pattern where being attractive = better treatment in general from everyone, including people who don't have a romantic interest. I might have that bias as well and I just don't notice it. It doesn't make sense in the way that wanting your romantic partner to be attractive makes sense. After all, you don't have to wake up next to your friend or look at their naked body, so why should it matter how attractive they are? Yet I'm confident that if you carried out a study where you had an attractive person and an unattractive person with the same temperament and attitude interact with regular people throughout the day, you would find that the more attractive person generally got treated better.


Whether someone is treated favorably or unfavorably for looking attractive can be a mixed bag.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Dezir said:


> This may be my own bias at play, but as someone who was born genetically good looking, then got bad looking due to becoming overweight, then becoming good looking again and ever more due to hitting the gym and getting ripped; I feel that I have a much better understanding of both sides of the spectrum than most people.


Same here, I have been on both sides of the spectrum. There is a massive difference, it affects everything in life, not just relationships. It is what it is however, once we know this, its up to us what choices we make with this data about how the world operates.



> Ever seen those typical American high school movies? or stuff like that in real life? How comes the jerks are always good looking people? Because if it was an ugly looking people being a jerk everybody would ostracize him and reject him. He would have no girls, no friends, no social life. But since they are the jacks, the hot good looking guys who are also ripped and also in the school's football class (popularity), they can afford being an assholes and people would still accept them for it, because popularity and good looks, because they have other qualities that compensate them being an asshole.


I do wish people would stop seeing these movies as being some guide to life however. At the end of the day, they are entertainment. They are not reality. I know this is not what you are on about, but I have heard (especially online) people comment on these films and what these films "say" they should be doing. No, its just a film. Does that mean if these people start watching "The Silence of the lambs", they are going to see it as a guide on how to eat people?

Anyway, I am stepping away from this conversation now. People tend to get too invested in these chats and get offended too easily by what people say.

I will lurk and watch with amusement however. Its been amusing so far.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

I personally don't give a shit what people look like. I met most of my friends online, and nothing changed when I later learned what they looked like because it doesn't matter to them. Doesn't mean I have to see something wrong with others finding appearance important. People are different, no shit?

If you have to argue that most people who say they don't care about appearances are self-delusional or lying for clout to feel like it's okay to care about appearances, maybe you've internalized the idea that it's shallow to care about appearances more than you'd like to admit. Someone who realizes that's bullshit wouldn't see a need to double down with accusing others of being self-delusional.


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## 98403942 (Feb 10, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> I personally don't give a shit what people look like. I met most of my friends online, and nothing changed when I later learned what they looked like because it doesn't matter to them. Doesn't mean I have to see something wrong with others finding appearance important. People are different, no shit?
> 
> If you have to argue that most people who say they don't care about appearances are self-delusional or lying for clout to feel like it's okay to care about appearances, maybe you've internalized the idea that it's shallow to care about appearances more than you'd like to admit. Someone who realizes that's bullshit wouldn't see a need to double down with accusing others of being self-delusional.


I am now beginning to understand it seems like too puzzling a concept that one can actually care deeply about a phenomenon that does not touch one personally. You can't fight the ego. I keep being accused of this time, and time again. 'Im sorry it happened to you, Im sorry you got hurt like that'. I can keep talking all day and all life and there is a barrier here that is preventing understanding. Oh well. You do what you can.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

MH17 said:


> I am now beginning to understand it seems like too puzzling a concept that one can actually care deeply about a phenomenon that does not touch one personally. You can't fight the ego. I keep being accused of this time, and time again. 'Im sorry it happened to you, Im sorry you got hurt like that'. I can keep talking all day and all life and there is a barrier here that is preventing understanding. Oh well. You do what you can.


Just because nobody has said it to you directly before, doesn't mean it doesn't also affect you. That's how culture works. Unless you're saying you don't actually care about looks in relationships?


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## 98403942 (Feb 10, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> Just because nobody has said it to you directly before, doesn't mean it doesn't also affect you. That's how culture works. Unless you're saying you don't actually care about looks in relationships?


I'm a better judge of what affects me, I think.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

MH17 said:


> I'm a better judge of what affects me, I think.


You'd think, but you aren't acting like it. I'm going to be taking the leap of logic here, and assuming it affects you more than you let on.



> Looks are extremely important to *me* and without them there is no talk of even friendship, let alone romantic relationship.





> Feel free to bullshit how you're all about the personality, character and you're completely unaffected by how a person looks, nothing, nada, zed, and *I'm* a horrible, shallow person that ought to be ostracized and singled out as a bad example, a nuisance to your 'spiritual values', right here.





> I am now beginning to understand it seems like too puzzling a concept that one can actually care deeply about a phenomenon that *does not touch one personally*. You can't fight the ego. I keep being accused of this time, and time again. 'Im sorry it happened to you, Im sorry you got hurt like that'.


Which is it? You started off this thread using very personalizing language, and when people started reacting to it, you turned tail and ran off to "it doesn't affect me personally, what are you talking about, ignore all the personalizing language I've been using since the very first post of this thread".


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Now the real question is..... would I have used that video if it had been someone who looked repulsive (no ****).


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## 98403942 (Feb 10, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> You'd think, but you aren't acting like it. I'm going to be taking the leap of logic here, and assuming it affects you more than you let on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Omfg go pick a stupid fight with somebody else. And take your stupid 200 sized font with you.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

MH17 said:


> Omfg go pick a stupid fight with somebody else. And take your stupid 200 sized font with you.


You consider anyone disagreeing with you picking a fight. And your only defense is insults.


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## 98403942 (Feb 10, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> You consider anyone disagreeing with you picking a fight. And your only defense is insults.


You are pulling points out of your ass. Which is asinine. You want to disagree? Quote what I say you disagree with, and then present your disagreeing agreement. I'm not going to address you disagreeing with things you imagined I said. I make my statements clear and unambiguous. If you can't do the same, don't waste my time.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

JennyJukes said:


> I mean, I'm with you.
> 
> I gave an obese virgin who didn't own a toothbrush a chance because I didn't want to be "shallow" and _he_ treated _me _like I was disgusting and ugly because I, an adult woman, sometimes had hairy legs and didn't look like a pornstar. Yeah, never again.


Isn't your reasoning for giving him a chance abit stupid though? It's like you're saying you're beneath me but I'm gonna offer u some charity to try prove to myself that I'm not shallow only to prove that u were coz u saw him as this obese virgin who didn't own a toothbrush, someone who truly gaves no fks about appearances wouldn't even mention any of that.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

MH17 said:


> You are pulling points out of your ass. Which is asinine.


Yep! Congratulations on noticing.



MH17 said:


> I make my statements clear and unambiguous.


I definitely disagree with this, for one. No. You've been communicating extremely unclearly, and saying people are stupid for not understanding you.



MH17 said:


> Feel free to bullshit how you're all about the personality, character and you're completely unaffected by how a person looks, nothing, nada, zed, and I'm a horrible, shallow person that ought to be ostracized and singled out as a bad example, a nuisance to your 'spiritual values', right here.


This statement is ambiguous. I could easily read this as meaning that you think it's bullshit when people say they're completely unaffected by how a person looks at all (in which case: it isn't - I know for a fact I have 0 care from it) or that you think it's bullshit that people say that _and_ you're a horrible person for caring, in which case I don't even disagree with you.

And you say "_and I'm a horrible, shallow person_ [...] _and singled out as a bad example_". You sure seem to act like someone who expects people to say these things to you, with you referring specifically to expecting people to attack you for your beliefs. Is it any wonder that people thought it was something that affects you personally, when you refer to yourself so heavily in your first fucking post?



MH17 said:


> I feel like there is this gigantic bullshit stigma about appreciation for one's physical appearance. Mostly because we live in a society of entitled, lazy brats who want to reap the benefits but don't want to do the work, or they don't understand there is work to be done because they've been brainwashed by ads that of course sing sweet songs to them that all say 'youre worth it'.
> 
> EEeeeeeeer. Nope. You ain't worth shit, unless somebody actually wants what you're bringing to the table. One of those legitimate offerings is one's physical appearance. I am very allergic to bullshit so this is me kind of breaking out in this post.


What do you think is bullshit, and how does it connect to your point about "entitled, lazy brats"? It sounds like you're implying now that you think it's bullshit that people think their appearance shouldn't have to matter, in which case: I disagree with you, because the _whole reason_ idc if others find appearance important is because I don't think people should be shamed for things they can't control. And people can only really control so much of their appearance in the first place.



MH17 said:


> This isn't me bitching about something that affects me directly. It doesn't. I'd rather sling my brains out than deal with morons submerged in denial.
> 
> I know there are people out there who are in denial so I am trying to do my little part and collide them with their denial by impersonating it, naming it, wrapping it in a literal, addressable form.


Again, you communicate very ambigiously. You won't go out and say "everyone who thinks they don't care about appearances is in denial", just mildly imply it and get mad at people when they make assumptions. I've seen very few concrete points in these first four posts of yours, and certainly none that I could point to as a thesis. If you want me to actually concrete and unambigiously disagree, make a concrete and unambigious statement.



MH17 said:


> This is the 2nd post I made recently and the 2nd assumption that's been made that this is something I am dealing with personally.


Hint for future dealings with the general public: If you talk about something like it affects you in your opening post, people will respond to you like it affects you. Simple cause and effect.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Alright I think I've had enough experience with this "debate" to summ this up to;

1. Those who gets sexual arousal from someone's physical appearance will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's "personality" which includes intelligence, humor, confidence, aura, outlook on life or w/e else.
2. Those who does NOT get sexual arousal from someone's physical appearances, will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's physical appearances.
3. I believe that the MAJORITY of people, thats any figure higher than 50.00000000000000000001% of the population or consensus are in the boat of gets sexual arousal from someone's physical appearance.
4. I believe that there ARE SOME people in the MINORITY who does NOT get sexual arousal from someone's physical appearances but rather from someone's "personality" which includes intelligence, humor, confidence, aura, outlook on life or w/e else.

And thus, the 2 sides will NEVER reach an agreement and will NEVER see eye to eye so agree to disagree.

For those that get sexual arousal from people's physical appearance but have additional standards such as someone's "personality" which includes intelligence, humor, confidence, aura, outlook on life or w/e else are simply more picky and wants the laundry list of shit before they're willing to settle with someone sexually, it does not remove you from caring about people's physical appearances by piling on abunch of other shit so stop pretending.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

ENTJudgement said:


> Isn't your reasoning for giving him a chance abit stupid though? It's like you're saying you're beneath me but I'm gonna offer u some charity to try prove to myself that I'm not shallow only to prove that u were coz u saw him as this obese virgin who didn't own a toothbrush, someone who truly gaves no fks about appearances wouldn't even mention any of that.


I would say Obese people that do not brush their teeth goes beyond shallowness.

"Hmmm you don't give a fuck about yourself, but I'm sure you will give a fuck about me".


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Dezir said:


> Also, it's funny how most women fantasy romance movies are about average women being able to secure a Chad (50 Shades of Grey), while most men fantasy romance movies are about ugly men being able to secure a hot woman because of their soul. It's like it's everything about looks at the end of the day.


I would say there is a good mix of themes/motifs in romcoms. It's also common for two conventionally attractive people to be paired together and end up together despite the circumstances. Those circumstances usually being a discrepancy in wealth, work ethic, or an imbalance of masculine/feminine traits. Or something else.

For example:
Very wealthy man finally finds a woman who doesn't just do whatever he says and acts subservient. Woman of lesser socioeconomic means sees beyond his wealth and status, capturing his heart- Pretty Woman, You've Got Mail, Coming to America, Crazy Rich Asians

Very career driven, workaholic woman with a go-getter attitude meets the man who makes her want to be less domineering, and more of a kept woman - How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days, Every Hallmark movie ever, Cameron Diaz in the Holiday

Alpha male humbles a raging feminist - 10 Things I Hate About You, The Ugly Truth

So I would say these things are playing out too. Very interesting to see what kinds of fantasies we can concoct.


ENTJudgement said:


> Alright I think I've had enough experience with this "debate" to summ this up to;
> 
> 1. Those who gets sexual arousal from someone's physical appearance will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's "personality" which includes intelligence, humor, confidence, aura, outlook on life or w/e else.
> 2. Those who does NOT get sexual arousal from someone's physical appearances, will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's physical appearances.
> ...


Did you just use the word aura? I’ve seen enough here and I am very pleased lol


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

ENFPathetic said:


> Are personality and character ultimately more important than looks? Of course. But how are you going to go from not knowing someone exists to knowing them well enough to appreciate them for who they are neath beneath the surface? You're not going to go and talk to a random woman under the assumption that she's attractive beneath the surface. She could be the funniest, most intelligent and most caring woman on the planet, but you wouldn't know that yet, would you(unless you're a creepy stalker or something)? You're going to approach her because her body is hypnotic, or her smile is infectious, or her eyes are alluring. You're not even going to give an ugly ting the chance to show you how awesome her personality is. And while it could indeed be your loss, you're not going to take that gamble, because it's stupid. Because if you're going to gamble anyway, which you have to, you might as well gamble smart and take that gamble with someone that's pleasing on your senses.
> 
> Minnie Ripperton and her husband put it best when they wrote that classic. "Lovin you, is easy cause you're beautiful".


Most people would write something like this and to that I reply with simply;

Your wife is decent with a decent personality, you're satisfied with her but when you married her, she was a 8-10/10 then she started not caring about her appearance, became overweight (not enough to be detrimental to her health, just fat enough to look like she belongs in the overweight category). Then she started aging rapidly, like at 30 she looks like shes 50 and her skin looks dry and dreadful af like tree bark but it's not an illness by any means, she just over tanned with accelerated aging genetics. She also decided to not shave, keeping her body "natural" and changed her hairstyle to resemble a teenage boy, she also dyed it green.

Now to you she went from a 8/10/10 to a 2/10, would you stick with her, love her the same and still be sexually aroused by her? If yes then appearances probably don't matter much to you, if you're suddenly feeling unattracted to her and having second thoughts then physical appearances MATTER to you, don't pretend that it doesn't.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

I don’t really use standards to select friends. Those are just confabulated after-thoughts.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> For example:
> Very wealthy man finally finds a woman who doesn't just do whatever he says and acts subservient. Woman of lesser socioeconomic means sees beyond his wealth and status, capturing his heart- Pretty Woman.


IDK, Julia Roberts had to be paid like 5k for her to even stay with Richard Gear for the weekend so thats questionable af but yeah I get what you're tryna say, just nitpicking coz instigating kekw.



OrchidSugar said:


> Did you just use the word aura? I’ve seen enough here and I am very pleased lol


DW, I got u INFP frenz  ez common language. learnt by looking at people's expressions then using my Ni to illustrate this "aura" around them to better communicate with INFP frenz :3.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Antiparticle said:


> One idea:
> 
> 1) Start dating
> 2) As relationship progresses get fat on purpose
> ...


I've proposed to test my partner, talking about essentially the same thing and some people said they would be outraged and despise their partners if they were tested.


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## JennyJukes (Jun 29, 2012)

Antiparticle said:


> One idea:
> 
> 1) Start dating
> 2) As relationship progresses get fat on purpose
> ...


Well, any tips? Been trying to gain weight all my life. Looking at the women in my family my only option is to wait until menopause apparently..


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

ENTJudgement said:


> Although I understand why people love asking this question and I can probably give you generalized answers which probably applies to the majority so 50%+ of the male population, it goes without saying that the only person whose opinion should matter in this case is the guy you're interested in.
> 
> But if you want a anecdotal generalized answer from my opinion then;
> 
> ...


These pictures look super fake to me. Like human robots.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

JennyJukes said:


> Well, any tips? Been trying to gain weight all my life. Looking at the women in my family my only option is to wait until menopause apparently..


😂 

You can try other things too, experiment with hair? 👩🏻‍🎤🧑🏻‍🎤👨‍🎤


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

ENTJudgement said:


> Outliers and minorities aside, I believe I've already had this convo with Orchard, essentially IF women value men for their ability to provide utility, provisions and safety then men would generally value women for their beauty/looks and femininity/softness/nurture/more agreeable personality. Both sides dislike why they're liked and both sides ask "what if I lost my beauty? You should still love me the same" or "What if I lost my job and became a bum with 0 ambition, became weak af and won't protect you in any situation? You should still love me the same".
> 
> I think you need to understand, for the average man to love you to the point where physical appearances does not matter at all is not equal to you loving him regardless of his appearances, coz a lot of the time, women value the utility a man provides such as provision, safety etc... so for this equation to even be equal, you'd need to say yes to a man that is; "What if I lost my job and became a bum with 0 ambition, became weak af and won't protect you in any situation? You should still love me the same".


Would you also prefer women to have little ambition for herself, to just act like a bum and look nice for a man?

I don’t see an equivalency with valuing someone’s ambition/motivation in life and valuing their appearance unless the above it true. Which, I hope it isn’t.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Squirt said:


> Would you also prefer women to have little ambition for herself, to just act like a bum and look nice for a man?
> 
> I don’t see an equivalency with valuing someone’s ambition/motivation in life and valuing their appearance unless the above it true. Which, I hope it isn’t.


What I said previously also applies here;
_1. Those who gets sexual arousal from someone's physical appearance will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's "personality" which includes intelligence, humor, confidence, aura, outlook on life or w/e else.
2. Those who does NOT get sexual arousal from someone's physical appearances, will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's physical appearances.
3. I believe that the MAJORITY of people, thats any figure higher than 50.00000000000000000001% of the population or consensus are in the boat of gets sexual arousal from someone's physical appearance.
4. I believe that there ARE SOME people in the MINORITY who does NOT get sexual arousal from someone's physical appearances but rather from someone's "personality" which includes intelligence, humor, confidence, aura, outlook on life or w/e else.

And thus, the 2 sides will NEVER reach an agreement and will NEVER see eye to eye so agree to disagree._ 

Essentially YOU value ambition in a partner so you can't understand why someone else don't value it that much which is what I gathered from your comment here;
"I don’t see an equivalency with valuing someone’s ambition/motivation in life and valuing their appearance"
This is a trap that a lot of people fall in, it's pointless to assume someone else has the same values or value things the same as you do coz people value different things differently. I much rather just replace everything with letters like X, Y, Z and look at it like a math equation, that way, everything is balanced, more fair and less bias.

To answer your question, a lot of men don't care or need their wife to be highly ambitious coz they're already providing or expected to, if I'm earning more than enough for the both of us, why is it so paramount that you be ambitious? I can also understand why you value ambition, coz you look for that trait in your s.o, you probably value confidence highly as well but you're not a man so you can't expect men to have similar weightings to you.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

ENTJudgement said:


> To answer your question, a lot of men don't care or need their wife to be highly ambitious coz they're already providing or expected to, if I'm earning more than enough for the both of us, why is it so paramount that you be ambitious?


Some reasons why women should care:
1) Partner gets sick, loses ability to work (or dies), they have their own salary/career
2) Ambition is more than salary, it’s for personal creativity and self-development 
3) Social life: you meet 99% similar people in your life through work, mentally it’s healthier to go to work every day 
4) Having personal finances is important, deciding how to spend (or invest) money by yourself

Why men don’t care - maybe they have lower standards than women


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

ENTJudgement said:


> What I said previously also applies here;
> _1. Those who gets sexual arousal from someone's physical appearance will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's "personality" which includes intelligence, humor, confidence, aura, outlook on life or w/e else.
> 2. Those who does NOT get sexual arousal from someone's physical appearances, will not relate, cannot relate and will never relate to those who get SEXUAL arousal from someone's physical appearances.
> 3. I believe that the MAJORITY of people, thats any figure higher than 50.00000000000000000001% of the population or consensus are in the boat of gets sexual arousal from someone's physical appearance.
> ...


I’d say for me it is a bit of both. Ambitions with my partner need to align because I’d like to grow as a person with them, but that doesn’t exclude physical attraction. I don’t have a strict set of characteristics I find attractive (but I know some women do).
I can tell you that I was able to take care of living expenses while my husband went back to college, and that took a big weight off his shoulders. Relationships can work a lot of different ways and evolve over time, and having some flexibility in our “roles” is a big advantage, imo.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Antiparticle said:


> These pictures look super fake to me. Like human robots.


Photoshop


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

DOGSOUP said:


> Photoshop


Or maybe a couple of beers.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Antiparticle said:


> Some reasons why women should care:
> 1) Partner gets sick, loses ability to work (or dies), they have their own salary/career
> 2) Ambition is more than salary, it’s for personal creativity and self-development
> 3) Social life: you meet 99% similar people in your life through work, mentally it’s healthier to go to work every day
> ...


First of all I want to point out that having low ambition does not equate to not having ANY job, it just equates to she can have a job she doesn't focus and dedicate her life to, she can also choose to be a housewife if she wishes.

Downsides to highly ambitious people;

1. I value family and quality time with my partner and IF she values me as a provider and wants me to be ambitious while simultaneously wanting to be ambitious herself then the 2 of us will just be busy all the time, both focused on career/work, noone really taking proper care of the family, household etc... So quite a big trade off in which case I'd still rather not have the both of us highly ambitious and having no time for each other, both focused on our careers. In a perfect world where shes highly ambitious and nothing else suffers then sure, I'd take that over little ambition albeit, it rarely matches reality. If you flip the script and ask whether I'll be fine being a house husband, more than happy to if shes already earning more enough for the both of us and thinks the same way I do, this implies she doesn't value ambition in a man that much and values a house husband.

2. The whole notion that you have to become successful in your career and climb the ladder for personal or self development is ironic, the more I climb, the more successful I become, the less human I am and the more psychopathic I become, the corp world does not value nice guys, it's cut throat and you often end up needing to fk others over to progress, if you don't, you'll be the one fked over so others can progress. Why is someone with lower ambitions incapable of self development? Do you need to be good at your career to grow as a human? Fk no, the main point of careers in this day and age is to profit, without profits, businesses can't run or operate, you're basically just succumbing to a money making machine.

3. The notion that you need to be ambitious in your career to have a social life is also a misguided assumption, just coz you meet a lot of people at work does not mean they make good friends that you form deep/close bonds with, a lot of the time they're just acquaintances. I'd say MOST relationships from work are shallow coz the working environment is often not set up for you to make close friends with deep connections but rather, be professional with your colleagues and acquaintances and be productive. I know plenty of housewives who are more social than me, I don't think being a housewife means you're cut off from society, I think you being an introverted hermit and not being social is what causes it. You could be talking to people at the store, your Pilates class, whatever hobbies you're doing, taking the dog for a walk/run at the park, doing w/e less ambitious job or volunteer work, getting involved in your kid's school, theres countless interactions to be social.

4. Yeah I can see how 50/50 split finances would be a benefit, hard to argue when we're just going to buy what we want with our own money right? But if we're married we can't really keep our finances split coz in a divorce, I/U lose half anyway. I'll give you this one though coz I see it as a win, for me anyway lol.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

ENTJudgement said:


> First of all I want to point out that having low ambition does not equate to not having ANY job, it just equates to she can have a job she doesn't focus and dedicate her life to, she can also choose to be a housewife if she wishes.
> 
> Downsides to highly ambitious people;
> 
> ...


So then it’s best to have 2 similar partners in terms of ambition so no-one has to lose their soul in the corporate world. In case of 2 normal jobs both can have hobbies and other activities for socializing. 

Do you want to have more ambitious career because you prefer to have a superior role, i.e. making more decisions in private life?


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Antiparticle said:


> So then it’s best to have 2 similar partners in terms of ambition so no-one has to lose their soul in the corporate world. In case of 2 normal jobs both can have hobbies and other activities for socializing.


Yeah this could work but the woman in this instance can't be attracted to a man's ability to provide provision, stability, financial security etc... Coz shes half of the equation, without her ability to equally provide, it all falls to shit. I have no qualms with this dynamic, I just think the amount of women that like this set up and pick it as their ideal go to is in the minority.



Antiparticle said:


> Do you want to have more ambitious career because you prefer to have a superior role, i.e. making more decisions in private life?


No, I do not prefer a more ambitious career, I'm actually happy with being a house husband to a beautiful high earning wife whom treats me well, the only reason I'm a corp is coz I got noone to depend on financially, I'm smart enough so I expect to be compensated for my talents and why wouldn't I want higher compensation if I'm capable of achieving it? Since I need the financial compensation to look after myself anyway? Oh and I like nice things with expensive hobbies.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

ENTJudgement said:


> Yeah this could work but the woman in this instance can't be attracted to a man's ability to provide provision, stability, financial security etc... Coz shes half of the equation, without her ability to equally provide, it all falls to shit. I have no qualms with this dynamic, I just think the amount of women that like this set up and pick it as their ideal go to is in the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I do not prefer a more ambitious career, I'm actually happy with being a house husband to a beautiful high earning wife whom treats me well, the only reason I'm a corp is coz I got noone to depend on financially, I'm smart enough so I expect to be compensated for my talents and why wouldn't I want higher compensation if I'm capable of achieving it? Since I need the financial compensation to look after myself anyway? Oh and I like nice things with expensive hobbies.


My ideal would be complementary skills and a shared vision of what life to build together. Being a housewife could also be a solid ambition for some women, too. I agree two people who have strong, solitary career ambitions towards climbing a corporate ladder and being high-earners might run into trouble. Heck, even when one person in a partnership is doing that it can be difficult.

I do get the difference you describe, though, between being strongly affected by appearance compared to personality, and how that can affect the criteria someone has when searching for a partner.


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## TranscendingEnlightenment (7 mo ago)

_Clicks the unfollow button and tries to avoid a subject about superficial looks from now on. Also, aware this thread's title has changed recently._


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

ENTJudgement said:


> Yeah this could work but the woman in this instance can't be attracted to a man's ability to provide provision, stability, financial security etc... Coz shes half of the equation, without her ability to equally provide, it all falls to shit. I have no qualms with this dynamic, I just think the amount of women that like this set up and pick it as their ideal go to is in the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I do not prefer a more ambitious career, I'm actually happy with being a house husband to a beautiful high earning wife whom treats me well, the only reason I'm a corp is coz I got noone to depend on financially, I'm smart enough so I expect to be compensated for my talents and why wouldn't I want higher compensation if I'm capable of achieving it? Since I need the financial compensation to look after myself anyway? Oh and I like nice things with expensive hobbies.


All my relationships were “twins” in some way. Art/beauty related twins, then work partners, then soul-twins. And one collateral person*, I developed partial feelings, without relationship, we are intellectual twins (somewhat). I like this idea of equality / collaboration in life, so I think I am searching for my lost twin (I am only child so this is just a concept).

*married with a child so I decided to skip this one completely, however the twin feeling is definitely there (ENTJ mbti)


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

JennyJukes said:


> Now I'm curious what physical traits you guys find attractive and which you dont find attractive? 🤔


My contribution (personality is also interesting in this example)


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Antiparticle said:


> My contribution (personality is also interesting in this example)
> 
> View attachment 911715
> 
> View attachment 911716


When they turn evil for you, that’s when you know it’s real.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Pin on Taylor Lautner


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

Oh man, this scene tho. The music always cracks me up.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I think its subjective. There is one person on PerC that thinks a lot, and they insist that morality is objective. But for the life of me I don't get what they're saying, so it remains kinda irrelevant to me.


It’s not subjective in that way. It’s subjective in a way we all have inner moral values and know what is good and wrong towards others.

It’s complicated to say it’s objective by standard logical arguments, each of us would have to know everything about everything and everyone, entire history of thoughts. So we don’t say “moral is objective” but we say “we all can feel what is right and wrong”.

Feeling is the closest to knowing what is right and wrong.

Even Einstein’s theory of relativity has something that’s called invariants (absolutes, constants). Theory of relativity is not about “everything is relative” but also about “what is not relative?” / “what is invariant (the same for all observers)”?


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Antiparticle said:


> It’s not subjective in that way. It’s subjective in a way we all have inner moral values and know what is good and wrong towards others.
> 
> It’s complicated to say it’s objective by standard logical arguments, each of us would have to know everything about everything and everyone, entire history of thoughts. So we don’t say “moral is objective” but we say “we all can feel what is right and wrong”.
> 
> ...


"Morality" is still subject to personal interpretation.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> "Morality" is still subject to personal interpretation.


Everything is subject to personal interpretation. Including reality:






Solipsism - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





In the same we don’t question will the Sun go out every day (or not).


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Antiparticle said:


> Everything is subject to personal interpretation. Including reality:


I disagree. Reality is the same no matter how anyone interprets it. Morality however is different because its a mental construct coming out of the minds of beings that have evolved on this planet to have morality.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I disagree. Reality is the same no matter how anyone interprets it. Morality however is different because its a mental construct coming out of the minds of beings that have evolved on this planet to have morality.


What is the defintion of reality then, and how can you prove it's the same for you and me? And everyone else.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Antiparticle said:


> What is the defintion of reality then, and how can you prove it's the same for you and me? And everyone else.


I believe reality was there already before humans or any earthlings existed. Reality is the same no matter what, but the definition of it however according to _us_, not actual reality itself, isn't completely knowable because we have these faulty minds that only _interpret_ reality.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I believe reality was there already before humans or any earthlings existed. Reality is the same no matter what, but the definition of it however according to _us_, not actual reality itself, isn't completely knowable because we have these faulty minds that only _interpret_ reality.


I also believe that about reality. I belive the same about morality; which means morality also needs the “belief” factor or “feeling” factor of what’s right or wrong.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Antiparticle said:


> I also believe that about reality. I belive the same about morality; which means morality also needs the “belief” factor or “feeling” factor of what’s right or wrong.


I think morality doesn't exist without us to give it life. So another words, before us I don't think there was morality, unless of course maybe on another planet with other intelligent life.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> I think morality doesn't exist without us to give it life. So another words, before us I don't think there was morality, unless of course maybe on another planet with other intelligent life.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

mimesis said:


>


Yeah, other animals can have morality too via evolution, but what about before _they_ existed? There was no morality imo. That's why I said to @Antiparticle "before _us_ " and not "before humans". I purposely left it more vague taking into account that other animals probably have morality too.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> Yeah, other animals can have morality too via evolution, but what about before _they_ existed? There was no morality imo. That's why I said to @Antiparticle "before _us_ " and not "before humans". I purposely left it more vague taking into account that other animals probably have morality too.











BERT has a Moral Compass: Improvements of ethical and moral values of machines


12/11/19 - Allowing machines to choose whether to kill humans would be devastating for world peace and security. But how do we equip machines...




deepai.org


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## Shodan (Nov 17, 2016)

Shodan said:


> This is now officially among the most disastrous threads I've ever seen


...but it got better and now it's relevant to my interests once again


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

I was thinking about this thread when I heard about an Australian marathon runner, Turia Pitt, who during a run was caught in a brushfire and ended up with severe and life-threatening burns. She persevered through it, and even though she is disfigured, she is running marathons again. It makes me wonder if men would find her unattractive because of the burns, or if her qualities as a person could shine through that. It is heartening to see her fiancé did not leave her because of the burns and took care of her through the recovery. She might not have done so well without that support.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Antiparticle said:


> BERT has a Moral Compass: Improvements of ethical and moral values of machines
> 
> 
> 12/11/19 - Allowing machines to choose whether to kill humans would be devastating for world peace and security. But how do we equip machines...
> ...


And then there was Church of A.I.


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## Antiparticle (Jan 8, 2013)

Proof that any thread can become better over time. Especially when the title is so focused.

I suggest we close it for archive (@Dalien) and open more specialized/focused threads.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

Squirt said:


> And then there was Church of A.I.







Can’t find the clip I want but this kinda works


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

This thread is so derailed it’s not even funny.
Yet, there are some interesting discussions happening.
Also, a simple reminder: please do not make personal attacks.
The OP and even the title were deleted by the OP creator.
I‘m closing with hope that other threads can be created for the interesting pieces.


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