# the idea of tradition.



## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Tradition can go to whence it came from and never come back. I don't see value in repeating the same gestures over and over for the sake of it or because it feels nice or whatever. Same reason it irks me out when my ESE grandma decides it's family album time. Let me go kill myself with a spoon. That'd be more enjoyable than looking at 3-year-old me. What purpose does that serve more than to you? I don't even remember fuck even from the past few years so why should I care about something that occurred to me when I was 3 just because _you_ think it's fucking funny? Go to hell and die.


Ah, yes, family album time. Even better taking the pictures. "Everyone stand next to each other! We need to take another picture! Smile - no, you're not smiling enough! Another one!"

I do have a question though - I've noticed you've brought your grandmother up before and that you had to live with her for a while... how much do you think that has colored your opinion of Fe? Did you find other Fe types in your family acting similarly? I'm trying to compare to my SEI or ESE grandmother and she does the family album thing etc. but she isn't controlling/overbearing, which is where I think problems would stem from (as in, she is not happy you are not smiling and smiling but she doesn’t get angry and demanding and oh woe is me about it).



theof said:


> I think I could quite enjoy traditions that I had been part in creating, that felt meaningful and made some sort of sense. I don't think I have either a special inclination or repulsion towards them but I do take issue with enforced outside traditions for no reason other than "that is what people in our culture do so we should too". I fought a war with my sister over this during our teens. For some reason she decided that how we did christmas was wrong and we had to do what "everyone else" does, eat the "correct" foods, watch the "correct" shows on tv, listen to the "right" kind of music, use the "correct" colours etc. So I fought against all that, not because I felt very strongly about it all, although I did think what we were doing was fine and saw no point in changing it, but because I thought it was wrong of her to care so much about fitting into some sort of cultural idea that was completely artificial and meaningless to us since it was never our family tradition to begin with.


That sounds incredibly annoying. I hope that was just a teen phase, because that kind of "must do what everyone else does because its correct" sounds like trouble.



Nonsense said:


> (On the other hand I was pretty excited over NaNoWriMo last month. Which I guess is a kind of tradition, since I've done it more than once!)


Hey, good point. I guess it sort of is... but it is based on individual's desire to participate, instead of a broader expectation or group activity, which is how I usually view tradition and how most people in this thread view it, it seems.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

zinnia said:


> Hey, good point. I guess it sort of is... but it is based on individual's desire to participate, instead of a broader expectation or group activity, which is how I usually view tradition and how most people in this thread view it, it seems.


True, I just figured it was kind of relevant, because if I'm gonna be honest about how I feel about tradition, I can very much enjoy it when it's something I like do to. Compared to Ephemereality for example, who doesn't seem to find value in it at all.

And I thought it was kind of funny when I realized that I get more excited over NNWM these days than I get over Christmas. :tongue:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

zinnia said:


> Ah, yes, family album time. Even better taking the pictures. "Everyone stand next to each other! We need to take another picture! Smile - no, you're not smiling enough! Another one!"
> 
> I do have a question though - I've noticed you've brought your grandmother up before and that you had to live with her for a while... how much do you think that has colored your opinion of Fe? Did you find other Fe types in your family acting similarly? I'm trying to compare to my SEI or ESE grandmother and she does the family album thing etc. but she isn't controlling/overbearing, which is where I think problems would stem from (as in, she is not happy you are not smiling and smiling but she doesn’t get angry and demanding and oh woe is me about it).


Yes, she colors my impression of Fe a lot, especially unhealthy FeSi with type 2 logic because that's what she is in typology and it does define our interpersonal relationship quite heavily so. Not even my LII dad who is a 9 can stand being around her, so that says a lot that cognitively they are duals but in terms of how she operates not even he can stomach her manners.

With that said, I find that it doesn't matter in the end because Fe is Fe. I began watching this anime Steins;Gate just earlier and I noted very quickly that both of the two main protagonists in the show are Fe types. I would type them SEI and ILE respectively, and they both annoy me. I even find it quite unfortunate in this regard because the premise is great and I like the idea of paranoia going on and the concept of time travel. In a sense stereotypically Ni-esque both when it the paranoia and the time travel concept itself and the warping of time, but I cannot stand the show when it contains so many Fe types and they are the main characters to boot. If I had not known typology, I would just have labelled them super-annoying characters that are such big turn offs I can't even watch the show, but now I know why I feel like that. I can even retrace characters that annoyed me way before I got into typology in shows I used to watch such as Bleach. I for example had and still have a strong hatred towards the character Orihime. Why? In retrospect I realize she's an ESFJ so that's probably the only reason I actually need to know why though I hated her way before I knew what an ESFJ was. 

It's just that way Fe is. I can seem to manage it a bit better in beta types but just barely. I was watching the final episode of Hellsing Ultimate just prior and I am fairly sure the Major is an EIE-Ni for example but he is actually someone I can deal with because his Fe is of more ideological character and not as openly expressive as it is in Seras, another Fe ego type, who too, annoys me. She's likely alpha. Even someone like Sephiroth is someone I can manage (another likely EIE-Ni) much better because again, the Fe exists on such a more subdued level. I do find it really odd, but that's the way it seems to be. No wonder these characters often get mistyped as thinkers since they don't seem to be as obviously emotionally expressive. 

I am not quite sure what creates this difference when Fe is blocked with Si and Ni respectively, and why SiFe is more expressive in a sense than NiFe is, but the former seems to annoy me almost no matter who the person is indiscriminately so. I was for example helping a friend type the main protagonist in the Digimon series (don't ask lol), and even though I only saw one scene of that series with that character in it, I was already overwhelmingly annoyed by the behavior of that character and when I looked at the character's type, it became pretty clear very quickly that the person in question was an ESE. 

I am all for giving people a chance and all that and I would never ever use typology to judge people prematurely as I don't think one should use typology for such purposes e.g. only dating people you think are your dual, but it really is a repeatedable pattern that is very difficult to look away from. It seems as if 99% of the time if someone annoys me to no end, they are very likely an alpha SF. 

It could perhaps be that having to live with my grandmother and being so exposed to her in this unhealthy way made me extremely sensitive to this, moreso than you might find to be the general attitude when it comes to the superego, but I honestly don't think I am personally biased anymore than I seem to just be cognitively biased in general and that is not something I am necessarily interested to "work" on as it would mean letting go of ego and honestly, even from a psychological POV, that would result in likely unhealthy behavior more than it would lead to health.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Blissful Melancholy said:


> I had to imagine this for a while. You definitely didn't choose an easy way to go out.


You've never come across this before?


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Yes, she colors my impression of Fe a lot, especially unhealthy FeSi with type 2 logic because that's what she is in typology and it does define our interpersonal relationship quite heavily so. Not even my LII dad who is a 9 can stand being around her, so that says a lot that cognitively they are duals but in terms of how she operates not even he can stomach her manners.


Yeah... Well, I admit, Type 2 just scares me overall. My mother (who I still think is ESI) has a strong 2 tendency and the whole "I did nice things, now I deserve nice things" - hate it. I would rather she just stop doing these so-called "nice things" if it is held against me later.



> It's just that way Fe is. I can seem to manage it a bit better in beta types but just barely. I was watching the final episode of Hellsing Ultimate just prior and I am fairly sure the Major is an EIE-Ni for example but he is actually someone I can deal with because his Fe is of more ideological character and not as openly expressive as it is in Seras, another Fe ego type, who too, annoys me. She's likely alpha. Even someone like Sephiroth is someone I can manage (another likely EIE-Ni) much better because again, the Fe exists on such a more subdued level. I do find it really odd, but that's the way it seems to be. No wonder these characters often get mistyped as thinkers since they don't seem to be as obviously emotionally expressive.


Damn, I wish I were familiar with some of these characters. The only one I know is Sephiroth; Ni-Fe makes sense. He was quite emotionally expressive, but it was largely negative emotion, like dark dramatic stuff... I guess some people would assume he is some kind of thinking type just because of that.



> I am all for giving people a chance and all that and I would never ever use typology to judge people prematurely as I don't think one should use typology for such purposes e.g. only dating people you think are your dual, but it really is a repeatedable pattern that is very difficult to look away from. It seems as if 99% of the time if someone annoys me to no end, they are very likely an alpha SF.
> 
> It could perhaps be that having to live with my grandmother and being so exposed to her in this unhealthy way made me extremely sensitive to this, moreso than you might find to be the general attitude when it comes to the superego, but I honestly don't think I am personally biased anymore than I seem to just be cognitively biased in general and that is not something I am necessarily interested to "work" on as it would mean letting go of ego and honestly, even from a psychological POV, that would result in likely unhealthy behavior more than it would lead to health.


Nah, I mean, you like what you like and you don't what you don't - you can't change that, even if it was due to early environmental influence (or not). I do tend to react badly to people making broad assumptions before getting to know individuals (judging people prematurely as you mentioned) but if you're aware of it and avoid it until proven, it is what it is. It would be weird to ask someone to change or pretend otherwise.



Nonsense said:


> True, I just figured it was kind of relevant, because if I'm gonna be honest about how I feel about tradition, I can very much enjoy it when it's something I like do to. Compared to Ephemereality for example, who doesn't seem to find value in it at all.
> 
> And I thought it was kind of funny when I realized that I get more excited over NNWM these days than I get over Christmas. :tongue:


Oh, I think anyone can enjoy tradition depending on the activity (I did enjoy our summer vacations) - but for me, it's about valuing the activity as it is now, not the fact that it is tradition in and of itself. Does that make sense?

I get excited more about Christmas time off than Christmas itself now. Being an adult is so terrible LOL. blah blah complain about life here


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

zinnia said:


> Yeah... Well, I admit, Type 2 just scares me overall. My mother (who I still think is ESI) has a strong 2 tendency and the whole "I did nice things, now I deserve nice things" - hate it. I would rather she just stop doing these so-called "nice things" if it is held against me later.


Yeah. Imagine that now with Fe and the guilt tripping Fe can instill. She constantly makes dad feel bad about me because apparently according to her, he's not thinking of me enough, doing enough etc. So yeah, even Ti types can get upset with enough unhealthy Fe exposure. She guilt trips him so easily and that's how I know he's a super-id Fe type because I'm immune to that shit. She can't guilt trip me because I don't value that kind of external bonding, but she tries other tactics instead. She has for example suggested (and this is no joke) that I should get rid of my cats so I can move closer to her. WTF? Clearly she has deeper issues that are not in themselves related to type 2 and Fe, but they sure contribute. 



> Damn, I wish I were familiar with some of these characters. The only one I know is Sephiroth; Ni-Fe makes sense. He was quite emotionally expressive, but it was largely negative emotion, like dark dramatic stuff... I guess some people would assume he is some kind of thinking type just because of that.







This is a spoiler but it's a great example of how the Major is like a character. Seras is in there too as the female blonde in police outfit. Also what is up with EIEs and their inability to shut up over all these excessive little details about their grand ideological masterplans? Aizen from Bleach is exactly the same way:






Anyway, I think you can figure out who is who here. Seras right away is just... like that. I have no word for it except that it annoys me to no end. That sentimental emotional expression. 



> Nah, I mean, you like what you like and you don't what you don't - you can't change that, even if it was due to early environmental influence (or not). I do tend to react badly to people making broad assumptions before getting to know individuals (judging people prematurely as you mentioned) but if you're aware of it and avoid it until proven, it is what it is. It would be weird to ask someone to change or pretend otherwise.


I know. I suppose it was just a premature reaction against being judged over my already sucky PoLR lol. There's that aspect to it too where we are afraid of being judged over our poor use of superego.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

zinnia said:


> I get excited more about Christmas time off than Christmas itself now. Being an adult is so terrible LOL. blah blah complain about life here


It is. Why can't I just undo growing up, lol. And you do make sense. 

Hmm, I wonder how much the characters we like/dislike says about us. There's a topic about that in the MBTI subforum, though, and I do think it depends on a lot of factors. I remember not caring for Orihime much, but that was more because I found her boring then because of any expressiveness. I like some more crazy ESE characters, but might not have liked them much of I grew up with a crazy ESE. =P


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

zinnia said:


> My mother (who I still think is ESI) has a strong 2 tendency and the whole "I did nice things, now I deserve nice things" - hate it. I would rather she just stop doing these so-called "nice things" if it is held against me later.


You took the words out of my mouth. I've had this thought (and expressed it to no avail to my parents and other people) several times. I pretty much tell people something along the lines of: ''I didn't ask for anything and therefore didn't expect anything at all from you. If you insist on doing me a favor when I do not need it, do not expect anything in return. Just like I never expect anything in return when doing a favor to you or someone else.'' 

Usually they think it's harsh but those types of expectations are just too annoying and seems like such a fake way of viewing things.



ephemereality said:


> You've never come across this before?


 Nope. So it's a common expression? That's funny. I like it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Blissful Melancholy said:


> Nope. So it's a common expression? That's funny. I like it.


I wouldn't say it's common, but it persists in some circles, yes.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Yeah. Imagine that now with Fe and the guilt tripping Fe can instill. She constantly makes dad feel bad about me because apparently according to her, he's not thinking of me enough, doing enough etc. So yeah, even Ti types can get upset with enough unhealthy Fe exposure. She guilt trips him so easily and that's how I know he's a super-id Fe type because I'm immune to that shit. She can't guilt trip me because I don't value that kind of external bonding, but she tries other tactics instead. She has for example suggested (and this is no joke) that I should get rid of my cats so I can move closer to her. WTF? Clearly she has deeper issues that are not in themselves related to type 2 and Fe, but they sure contribute.


I'm usually resistant to guilt-tripping but it annoys the crap out of me too when people try to pull that... though I've noticed when I am in a rare bad mood, I used to pull something similar and I hate that I did. Question: in your experience, how does Type 2 guilt-tripping differ from that due to Fe?

One of my grandmothers - not the ESE/SEI, this one I have yet to be able to type properly - has suggested I drop out of school and go to school where she lives so we can be next to each other. I didn't know what to say and just laughed and laughed... then she said she was serious.

Thanks for the videos, btw. I am still trying to find one of that Seras character to see exactly what you mean but yeah... Major and Aizen remind me big time of Sephiroth. They're all from the same mold.



> I know. I suppose it was just a premature reaction against being judged over my already sucky PoLR lol. There's that aspect to it too where we are afraid of being judged over our poor use of superego.


Yeah, I was worried it might be taken as criticism but that wasn't how I meant it. It was mentioned in another thread somewhere (by Figure, I believe; I apologize in advance if my paraphrase isn't entirely correct) that the polr isn't something you actively think about or notice, its just something one feels uncomfortable with when it is presented. I later mentioned about how maybe exposure plays a role. I view it like allergies: you're fine when the allergen isn't around but badness happens when you are in contact with it. There's also the idea of sensitization: the first time you are exposed, you may not even have a reaction or it may be delayed; but each time thereafter, you become more and more sensitive. Long story short: I asked to see what your views on this "sensitization" are P:



Nonsense said:


> Hmm, I wonder how much the characters we like/dislike says about us. There's a topic about that in the MBTI subforum, though, and I do think it depends on a lot of factors. I remember not caring for Orihime much, but that was more because I found her boring then because of any expressiveness. I like some more crazy ESE characters, but might not have liked them much of I grew up with a crazy ESE. =P


I think it can say a lot especially if you can narrow down why. After watching the videos above, I realize I got annoyed by the Ni+Fe idealist characters and I think - if my imaginings are correct - I would be less annoyed by Si+Fe characters, as at least I find them amusing, where the former I do not.

And now I feel like I should watch some of these to compare my opinions to others... maybe over break~



Blissful Melancholy said:


> You took the words out of my mouth. I've had this thought (and expressed it to no avail to my parents and other people) several times. I pretty much tell people something along the lines of: ''I didn't ask for anything and therefore didn't expect anything at all from you. If you insist on doing me a favor when I do not need it, do not expect anything in return. Just like I never expect anything in return when doing a favor to you or someone else.''
> 
> Usually they think it's harsh but those types of expectations are just too annoying and seems like such a fake way of viewing things.


Those are essentially my views, as well. I have a need to be independent so I can avoid that at all costs - I've had enough of borrowing money from my grandmother, for example, and then she starts going on and on about how I never talk to her, how she's done so much for me... Seriously, don't help then, because you're not doing it because you actually care about me, you're doing it to "get what you're owed." I'd rather pay interest on an outside loan than have that debt. (I paid her back a month later and she was clearly disappointed she couldn't hold it over me anymore.)



> Nope. So it's a common expression? That's funny. I like it.


Do not underestimate flatware. I cut myself with a spoon once lol. Maybe that is more a reflection on me than the spoon...


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

zinnia said:


> I think it can say a lot especially if you can narrow down why. After watching the videos above, I realize I got annoyed by the Ni+Fe idealist characters and I think - if my imaginings are correct - I would be less annoyed by Si+Fe characters, as at least I find them amusing, where the former I do not.


Heh, yeah. Like usual it depends about the why. I just think the character types I like can vary a bit. And then I can be annoyed at characters that are similar to me too. Uhm... well, I can't think of any characters I relate to right now, but someone compared me to Hinata from Naruto once, and admittedly I haven't watched a lot of Naruto, but... well, there's a character I find annoying. She just seems so shy and cutesy, her attitude makes me want to... *glances at spoon*


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

It depends on the tradition, really. I usually enjoy being with the few people worth caring about and having the opportunity to get things and be drunk. You don't need traditions for that, however.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I hate the holidays. 

Anyway, people who are against something just because it is traditional, are just as bad as people who think something is good because it is traditional. There is a lot of blind anti-authoritarianism associated with youth, that is skeptical and rebellious against tradition. I went through the phase myself.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

zinnia said:


> I'm usually resistant to guilt-tripping but it annoys the crap out of me too when people try to pull that... though I've noticed when I am in a rare bad mood, I used to pull something similar and I hate that I did. Question: in your experience, how does Type 2 guilt-tripping differ from that due to Fe?


I haven't come across Fi dominant type 2 guilt tripping so I can't comment. My SEE friend is likely 2-fixed, but her 2 is very strongly connected to 8 so she tends to be more rampant on telling me "go tell them to fuck yourselves" LOL, rather than trying to instill some sense of guilt or whatever. 

The way Fe with type 2 works is kind of very insidious. It is still type 2 in the sense that they project their needs onto others which doesn't change, but this need is expressed through Fe so it's not that I should think of them, no, I should think of everyone else because they were so kind as to suggest I not forget. Grandma has a knack to always remind people in her environment when others have birthdays (is that an Si thing caring about such dates?) for example, and that's what she does to dad too, I figure, though obviously she never says these things when I'm around. Hence insidious. She can for example ask him if he's called me recently and if he hasn't, well then poor him, because then he's doing a bad job being a dad even though I'm 26 soon and dad's close to 60. She doesn't get that we're grown-ups who can manage our own affairs. In this Fe sense (also likely coupled with the social instinct in enneagram), she thinks he has to run the family business. Yes, fairly sure she's 3 wing. Her ideal job was/is apparently when she is in some social situation where she has to take care of everything and everyone. What's funny about her because she's a type 2 is that she's also the most stereotype ESE/ESFJ/whathaveyou in every system there is. She's like the textbook example of her type. 



> One of my grandmothers - not the ESE/SEI, this one I have yet to be able to type properly - has suggested I drop out of school and go to school where she lives so we can be next to each other. I didn't know what to say and just laughed and laughed... then she said she was serious.


Yeah, that's grandma. That sounds more like Fe if it's motivated by the idea of you and her sharing an external connection based on say, family ties. 



> Thanks for the videos, btw. I am still trying to find one of that Seras character to see exactly what you mean but yeah... Major and Aizen remind me big time of Sephiroth. They're all from the same mold.


Let's see if I can find a different example with a different character but exactly the same behavior:





This annoys me to no end and I am fairly sure that Naruto is an ESE. Just please stfu and mourn silently like a grown-up person. Naruto (and Sakura) were the reasons why I dropped the show. I cannot deal with watching main characters like these. 



> Yeah, I was worried it might be taken as criticism but that wasn't how I meant it. It was mentioned in another thread somewhere (by Figure, I believe; I apologize in advance if my paraphrase isn't entirely correct) that the polr isn't something you actively think about or notice, its just something one feels uncomfortable with when it is presented. I later mentioned about how maybe exposure plays a role. I view it like allergies: you're fine when the allergen isn't around but badness happens when you are in contact with it. There's also the idea of sensitization: the first time you are exposed, you may not even have a reaction or it may be delayed; but each time thereafter, you become more and more sensitive. Long story short: I asked to see what your views on this "sensitization" are P:


Yeah, and that may be true I think for most people who are likely not as exposed to Fe or have been as exposed to Fe. I would say that I am likely quite over-reactive or over-sensitive to it. It's enough for me to notice Fe in another person for me to be completely turned off by any future interaction. It's enough that I have Fe types such as my grandmother in my family for me to actively think about how much I dislike Fe, though of course previously I would just think how much that particular behavior I now recognize as Fe annoys me.

It's the same thing if I notice it when I watch something on TV or whatever. As soon as I notice Fe I just can't stand it anymore. Having gamma friends, we often end up discussing things we don't like (or like), so naturally Fe crops up often as a common point of discussion, though we tend to commonly hate on all the cognitive functions we don't share i.e. NeTiFeSi. I think that kind of discussion is common if you share typology as a hobby. It's enough for my SEE friend to say something like, "there was this annoying Fe type at school" and you end up discussing it. 

So I think there are two different ways of understanding it, honestly. Cognitively, it is not an active awareness. Clearly, it is of opposite nature but something one tries to never consciously think of or approach. But to think of it in terms of theory is something I do often both in making value judgements about Fe as an IM/function/whatever but also just theory in general as in how it operates.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> Heh, yeah. Like usual it depends about the why. I just think the character types I like can vary a bit. And then I can be annoyed at characters that are similar to me too. Uhm... well, I can't think of any characters I relate to right now, but someone compared me to Hinata from Naruto once, and admittedly I haven't watched a lot of Naruto, but... well, there's a character I find annoying. She just seems so shy and cutesy, her attitude makes me want to... *glances at spoon*


Oh noes! If I ever watch Naruto I need to make sure I don't have any spoons in my immediate vicinity LOL.

Hmm... I can't think of any fictional characters like me at the moment, or even any I relate to. I guess it could be because fictional characters are written with very obvious flaws/attention-grabbers, that just hit you over the head time and time again, but they just seem unreal. I really liked Daenerys from ASOIAF in the books, but in the shows she is just blown out of proportion, for example. Now there is no character other than ass-kicking dragon lady.



FearAndTrembling said:


> Anyway, people who are against something just because it is traditional, are just as bad as people who think something is good because it is traditional. There is a lot of blind anti-authoritarianism associated with youth, that is skeptical and rebellious against tradition. I went through the phase myself.


I guess it's the phase of teenagers not wanting to "conform" (referring only to their parents' expectations) and "find themselves" but then conforming to something else.

But it isn't always as simple as tradition=bad. I don't mind decorating my house or giving gifts for the holidays... but when I am actually criticized for not participating or manipulated into doing so without good reason other than "tradition!!", it gets frustrating. It's taking away a degree of personal preference and freedom and I don't see the sense in it.



ephemereality said:


> I haven't come across Fi dominant type 2 guilt tripping so I can't comment. My SEE friend is likely 2-fixed, but her 2 is very strongly connected to 8 so she tends to be more rampant on telling me "go tell them to fuck yourselves" LOL, rather than trying to instill some sense of guilt or whatever.


LOL. I think that's a better way of handling it, honestly. Let go of the anger bit and be done with it.

I'm trying to think of how my mom does it. Her mother (who I am leaning more SEI than ESE) tends to always be offering something to someone, always wanting to please, it's similar to my ESE sister-in-law... it isn't quite like that. It's much more personal/smaller-scale, perhaps? Like she really cares for someone, sends them something on their birthday, and then gets really hurt when they forget her birthday. Like "don't I/doesn't our relationship mean anything to you?"



> Grandma has a knack to always remind people in her environment when others have birthdays (is that an Si thing caring about such dates?) for example, and that's what she does to dad too, I figure, though obviously she never says these things when I'm around. Hence insidious.


Hmm, I don't know. I don't get excited over birthdays, but I know others around me do, and if they are close friends, I try to remember and say happy birthday because it might brighten their day. I admit when someone says happy birthday to me, I think, oh hey wow they noticed and they cared enough about me to say it, how nice.



> Yes, fairly sure she's 3 wing. Her ideal job was/is apparently when she is in some social situation where she has to take care of everything and everyone.


Gross. My SEI grandma is a little like that but not quite as dominant about it (she offers to solve the problems behind the scenes, always hates not feeling needed); definitely applies to ESE sister-in-law (who I think is 3w2 as opposed to 2w3).



> Yeah, that's grandma. That sounds more like Fe if it's motivated by the idea of you and her sharing an external connection based on say, family ties.


What's strange about my grandma who said this is that my father says she was never like this when she was younger. She was very independent and domineering, was into the whole feminist movement back when her husband was totally against it... it seems guilt-tripping is a new thing for her. Maybe it's just an age thing. I think she is beta rather than alpha, though. I can't see the Si in her at all while it's so obvious with my other grandmother.

About the video... I think I understand why someone would get so upset over some things and so I tend to view crying as acceptable behavior to some extent but the whole just randomly blaming others and losing all control is just... whiny. I've seen worse examples of that though and I have reacted worse to those, to me this doesn't seem so bad in comparison. Now I'm trying to remember a case of this... Final Fantasy X was mentioned on another thread. Have you happened to play it? There were times I liked the main character but then he would go on these melodramatic tirades; there was also a lot of "how could you let her?! blah blah" which to me was undermining personal choice/throwing away the other character's perspective completely. Pretty sure I would have slapped him. I was also like... wait, am I supposed to cry now? I hear sad music...


* *




Shit hits the fan at around 1:22. 










> Yeah, and that may be true I think for most people who are likely not as exposed to Fe or have been as exposed to Fe. I would say that I am likely quite over-reactive or over-sensitive to it. It's enough for me to notice Fe in another person for me to be completely turned off by any future interaction. It's enough that I have Fe types such as my grandmother in my family for me to actively think about how much I dislike Fe, though of course previously I would just think how much that particular behavior I now recognize as Fe annoys me.


Long before I learned about typology, I was making observations about personalities and why I could not stand some people or ways of decision-making. When I first began studying it, it was like being validated. I remember reading about Fe types and Fe itself and getting absolutely disgusted with it all. This was back in high school, where it was all about in-group, out-group. Now I just don't really care since it's a non-issue. It's now limited to my grandmother pulling light guilt-tripping on me and I might get annoyed since I feel she could really get to know me as a person but doesn't really care to. Instead, she compares me to what she thinks I should be or... I really don't know how to explain it - she just refuses to see me as I am and accept it.



> It's the same thing if I notice it when I watch something on TV or whatever. As soon as I notice Fe I just can't stand it anymore. Having gamma friends, we often end up discussing things we don't like (or like), so naturally Fe crops up often as a common point of discussion, though we tend to commonly hate on all the cognitive functions we don't share i.e. NeTiFeSi. I think that kind of discussion is common if you share typology as a hobby. It's enough for my SEE friend to say something like, "there was this annoying Fe type at school" and you end up discussing it.


Ha, that would be fun having friends to talk about this with. I only have one friend who is interested, and we only talk online. We do say things like that though - this LSE guy did this and EIE guy did that, blah blah, this girl is so annoying because whatever...


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

zinnia said:


> Oh noes! If I ever watch Naruto I need to make sure I don't have any spoons in my immediate vicinity LOL.


LOL. Although I don't know if you'd have the same reaction as I did. And I only read/watched a little, because I didn't care for the main trio much, and it's such a drag to follow a series if I can't enjoy the MCs at all. 



> Hmm... I can't think of any fictional characters like me at the moment, or even any I relate to. I guess it could be because fictional characters are written with very obvious flaws/attention-grabbers, that just hit you over the head time and time again, but they just seem unreal. I really liked Daenerys from ASOIAF in the books, but in the shows she is just blown out of proportion, for example. Now there is no character other than ass-kicking dragon lady.


It's true, fictional characters are often rather exaggerated and simplified/generic, though some are better than others. I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately, but I can't think of many characters I would point to and say I really identify with them. Of course, while watching a show or reading a book etc, I often relate to the main character to some degree, since the story puts you in their shoes. And I can sympathize with their emotions since some things are pretty universal I guess. Beyond that, however, I can't think of any characters I relate to afterwards. Part of it could be lack of experience. I can imagine what it's like, but I haven't actually experienced the same things character X is going through, even in a metaphorical way.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

zinnia said:


> Oh noes! If I ever watch Naruto I need to make sure I don't have any spoons in my immediate vicinity LOL.


LOL. I know an even better example:






It's more the way she always expresses herself, talks in this particular manner that's just oh so annoying that is similar to both Seras and Naruto. 






Starts around 49 seconds.



> Hmm... I can't think of any fictional characters like me at the moment, or even any I relate to. I guess it could be because fictional characters are written with very obvious flaws/attention-grabbers, that just hit you over the head time and time again, but they just seem unreal. I really liked Daenerys from ASOIAF in the books, but in the shows she is just blown out of proportion, for example. Now there is no character other than ass-kicking dragon lady.


Yes, a lot of characters are written meant to fit certain archetypes, though I find it curious that a lot of these archetypes actually correlate to type archetypes too e.g. the master villain is surprisingly often an EIE. Daenerys is someone I'd type as Fi base by the way. So while of course the archetypes tend to take certain type traits and exaggerate them heavily, I also find that these traits are the traits that actually are a part of the core of the type in a sense. 

The only really tricky issue with fictional characters is that they can sometimes change type over the course of time. Rarely drastically so, but usually enough for them to move from one type to another. 



> LOL. I think that's a better way of handling it, honestly. Let go of the anger bit and be done with it.
> 
> I'm trying to think of how my mom does it. Her mother (who I am leaning more SEI than ESE) tends to always be offering something to someone, always wanting to please, it's similar to my ESE sister-in-law... it isn't quite like that. It's much more personal/smaller-scale, perhaps? Like she really cares for someone, sends them something on their birthday, and then gets really hurt when they forget her birthday. Like "don't I/doesn't our relationship mean anything to you?"


Oh, funny. I just uploaded a clip today of that person I think is an SEI in Steins;Gate lol:






She has a similar kind of moany or how to call it way of talking/being like Naruto, Seras and Orihime, but I would definitely say it's more subdued but then not sufficiently for me to think I can actually deal with this at a rational level. The logical solution was to quit watching. 



> Hmm, I don't know. I don't get excited over birthdays, but I know others around me do, and if they are close friends, I try to remember and say happy birthday because it might brighten their day. I admit when someone says happy birthday to me, I think, oh hey wow they noticed and they cared enough about me to say it, how nice.


I try but I usually forget. I just don't place much personal value on it and I mostly try to remember because I'm expected to. I only rare care about the birthdays when it comes to my close friends. I read that birthdays may for example be an expression of delta aristocracy though I have no clue how that works out. 



> Gross. My SEI grandma is a little like that but not quite as dominant about it (she offers to solve the problems behind the scenes, always hates not feeling needed); definitely applies to ESE sister-in-law (who I think is 3w2 as opposed to 2w3).


Makes sense being Si-base. They will be more concerned about their own comfort first in a sense. 



> What's strange about my grandma who said this is that my father says she was never like this when she was younger. She was very independent and domineering, was into the whole feminist movement back when her husband was totally against it... it seems guilt-tripping is a new thing for her. Maybe it's just an age thing. I think she is beta rather than alpha, though. I can't see the Si in her at all while it's so obvious with my other grandmother.


Could be, with a health thing. I definitely think there's a range in how we can express a type depending on age, health etc. 



> About the video... I think I understand why someone would get so upset over some things and so I tend to view crying as acceptable behavior to some extent but the whole just randomly blaming others and losing all control is just... whiny. I've seen worse examples of that though and I have reacted worse to those, to me this doesn't seem so bad in comparison. Now I'm trying to remember a case of this... Final Fantasy X was mentioned on another thread. Have you happened to play it? There were times I liked the main character but then he would go on these melodramatic tirades; there was also a lot of "how could you let her?! blah blah" which to me was undermining personal choice/throwing away the other character's perspective completely. Pretty sure I would have slapped him. I was also like... wait, am I supposed to cry now? I hear sad music...


I can definitely be sympathetic about being upset, but I just don't get this level of upset, this need to make everyone feel like you do. I find that this behavior is something that permeate Fe types because they are concerned about others' feelings so they will project and inject feelings this way as to manipulate the atmosphere. My grandmother may for example ask me if I feel lonely when she calls, and the reason why she does that is because she's the only feeling lonely. It's like she cannot accept her own feelings unless someone else is already feeling them. I find this very odd though it is definitely characteristic of Fe. Similarly, Fe types seem to also take upon the feelings of others so if someone else is angry, they are angry because someone else is angry and then they justify and say something like, but think about X person and how they suffer (so I suffer because of them). I just don't get it.


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah. That's kind of like the same level as I linked before too. That Fe fest lol. 



> Long before I learned about typology, I was making observations about personalities and why I could not stand some people or ways of decision-making. When I first began studying it, it was like being validated. I remember reading about Fe types and Fe itself and getting absolutely disgusted with it all. This was back in high school, where it was all about in-group, out-group. Now I just don't really care since it's a non-issue. It's now limited to my grandmother pulling light guilt-tripping on me and I might get annoyed since I feel she could really get to know me as a person but doesn't really care to. Instead, she compares me to what she thinks I should be or... I really don't know how to explain it - she just refuses to see me as I am and accept it.


Yeah. My grandmother still doesn't get I think the stuff she sends me is fugly. Last time she sent me some pair of babyblue socks with lace on them. WTF? And the odd thing is that she knows I am not very appreciative of it, yet she keeps doing it. 



> Ha, that would be fun having friends to talk about this with. I only have one friend who is interested, and we only talk online. We do say things like that though - this LSE guy did this and EIE guy did that, blah blah, this girl is so annoying because whatever...


Well, it's group of Skype friends. None of my IRL knows about the MBTI/socionics mostly because I don't think anyone would honestly care about it.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

The "tradition" of Thanksgiving (which was last week) here in the U.S. is ... stuff your face with food and hang out with people and be happy. And, while I like food and company, I got the crazy idea in my head (made a bet with my roommate I was going to eat only an apple for my "feast") to do the exact opposite of what people do (just for kicks and the challenge > ). So for the two days of "feasting" I lived/worked/worked-out etc. on no food and about half a liter of water total. That's what I think of tradition. ;D

... Oh, and then I had to lie and reassure my mother over phone that I was eating heartily and in great quantity (since I'm away at university). Boy, she'd pop a blood vessel or something if she found out about this. :laughing: My mother is all about tradition and photographs and memories and stuff like that XD.

... I also don't keep memorabilia or souvenirs or photographs ... everything in my room is useful, or garbage.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't seem to care about tradition. Its not like I oppose it or hate it, it just doesen't register with me as something important. Its more like background stuff I don't care about as long as its not in my way.

I have never been attracted to maintaining traditions either.

Best fit type IEE. I'm fairly sure I'm IEE lol (which says a lot cus I'm never sure about anything. it fits dichotomy-wise 98%, functionally too.).


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

FreeBeer said:


> I don't seem to care about tradition. Its not like I oppose it or hate it, it just doesen't register with me as something important. Its more like background stuff I don't care about as long as its not in my way.
> 
> I have never been attracted to maintaining traditions either.
> 
> Best fit type IEE. I'm fairly sure I'm IEE lol (which says a lot).


Yea, tradition isn't a "thing" that I really acknowledge for it's own sake. If it's in line with what I want to do then I do it. If it's not then I do whatever I was doing. Except maybe showing common courtesy, if you call that tradition.


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