# Female in Tech: Male perspective required



## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

jbking said:


> We can dream would be my answer to some of this. There are companies like Gartner that can provide some research material on some technologies that can be used to determine which products will be used within a company though there is something to be said for the workers being prepared to pick up some technologies on their own or with minimal training. I can remember almost a handful of years ago, we were putting in a new Content Management System(CMS) and got 2 days of training on the new software that while it did demystify some of the components, we still spent 2 years getting the first phase of the project done so there was a new site, new templates in the system and everything worked well enough that we could shut down the old CMS. We did get some help from a Systems Integrator that joined our development team for a while to help with knowledge transfer though it was quite a wild ride that I wonder how well did the business stakeholders understand what we developers discovered in trying to build that site from various components.


This was how my first job was. I also realised, but I did not take it to heart at that time as realistic reflection of the industry. My PM at that time in late 90s did not even know how to use CC for emails. But yet, when I was at uni, most students knew how to download a lot of the freewares to do various things to ease the speed of their own homework. 



> Companies can provide some training though often there will be a big expectation on tech teams learning the technology on their own as I've had to learn classic ASP and ASP.Net on my own which has had its share of ups and downs. There is the challenge of how much does one let employees play with new tools and how much is directly to deliver value to the business? It's an interesting Catch-22 at times since developers can be expected to stay on top of all the new stuff but also work with some of the really old stuff.


I came to realise this a lot too. There is a high expectation, and I often used to reverse-engineer certain modules and dissect it to find the issues. Only to realise that actually, nobody in the team gives a darn and they do not care to know either. I did not know this at the time.... A part of me also feels I wonder if this is sustainable for an NF. Hence my original question really. Am I in the wrong area. 



> From my view, ITIL is a nice framework for getting some common sense of how some processes should work. It doesn't really go into specific details of exactly how you log things or diagnose a problem, that is left to the organization to interpret and implement as they see fit. Thus, ITIL is rather vague on some points and takes years for a company to fully implement and have mature processes that people understand and use.


Yeh but if that is the case, how many companies will truly implement this to the tee, and then to also keep above the business too, and growth and flex according to their respective industry? I used to also get quite disappointed when IT projects are put on hold, but now I realised that is more or less a reality.


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## jbking (Jun 4, 2010)

Bago said:


> There is a high expectation, and I often used to reverse-engineer certain modules and dissect it to find the issues. Only to realise that actually, nobody in the team gives a darn and they do not care to know either. I did not know this at the time.... A part of me also feels I wonder if this is sustainable for an NF. Hence my original question really. Am I in the wrong area.


I've been a developer for 15 years though when I started I thought I was an INTJ. As for sustainable, given the changes in tools and how things work, I suspect other things will change faster. Though I do like Agile methodologies where there is a bit more of a focus on people. What makes this work well for me is to pick up the tips and tricks of solving things and seeing the look when something is delivered. To see the eye-popping effect that can happen when I finish an enhancement or application for someone to get something done so that they can be way more productive, is the fulfillment I seek.



Bago said:


> Yeh but if that is the case, how many companies will truly implement this to the tee, and then to also keep above the business too, and growth and flex according to their respective industry? I used to also get quite disappointed when IT projects are put on hold, but now I realised that is more or less a reality.


On hold is better than a Death March. There are blogs about IT project failure rates being so high though part of this is just that there are so many unknowns that to guess the right budget, time and manpower is nearly a Herculean feat from my view. Thus, there is the question of how do we define success and how flexible are companies when it comes time to change course.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

@_jbking_ - Really appreciate that link. I still feel guilty on some of the projects that went wrong you know.... I also started the bad thing of blaming others too as I walk into new jobs where there are data integrity issues. I shouldn't, I know. There is an element of anxiety that is left behind... It's very true about not able to let go of projects, and work. Never really thought about the team and how it affects the team... 

If you are not an INTJ, then are you at least INXx ??


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

I really appreciate all of the inputs so far. I now realised that maybe it is not because of the gender within the industry as it is the expectation and amount of work required... But yes, all of you are right in the sense that, as an employee, one should only deliver what is asked, right? If trained etc etc.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

jbking said:


> We can dream would be my answer to some of this. There are companies like Gartner that can provide some research material on some technologies that can be used to determine which products will be used within a company though there is something to be said for the workers being prepared to pick up some technologies on their own or with minimal training.


Good ole Gartner. We had them come in to do a costing analysis and we found our IT department is like 5-10% staffed by industry standards. Basically a system like our SAN should have 5-7 full time people. We have it where it's 1/4 of a guy's job. That's pretty much every system we have. Sometimes the expectations are completely unreal within organizations. Basically the whole organization is in a death march right now.


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## la_revolucion (May 16, 2013)

I work in elections IT with a private vendor fulfilling government contracts. My company is technically a start-up, but we are beginning to emerge from that title. Out of everyone I am the youngest (23) and one of only three females. I am also the only female directly involved with the tech side. I work very closely with our dev team. 

I feel my age is much worse than my gender at the moment. However, I think perhaps being a female opens you up for being picked on more? (By males and females alike) All it takes is shaking someone's hand confidently (while dressed in hand tailored business suits and etc) for people to start going on and on about how young I am. I have heard every young person joke on the planet, and it can be very annoying sometimes. 

Do young men get this crap as much as women?? 

"Hey, I didn't know 12-year-olds could set up my election!" Well guess what, you are an ignorant baboon from a backwards county in bumblefuck, USA with a website that looks like a 1997 GeoCities webpage. And your data is AWFUL too. I should be asking YOU how you even get an election running at all! :laughing:

And shoot! Just realized this was about the male perspective... Well, I jacked this thread. Oops! :tongue:


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

la_revolucion said:


> I feel my age is much worse than my gender at the moment.


That's why I was happy I could grow a goatee at 16. Most people thought I was way older and wasn't some "young punk."


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## jbking (Jun 4, 2010)

Bago said:


> If you are not an INTJ, then are you at least INXx ??


INFJ is what I suspect I am as I do have a drive to improve myself and care about others. Still an Ni-dom as I do have a model of the world that compartmentalizes things pretty well. Thus, my function difference is a swap of Te/Fi to Fe/Ti in the middle which makes some sense to me as I do have my emotional moments and can be a big softy, which at times can make working in IT interesting.



Bago said:


> all of you are right in the sense that, as an employee, one should only deliver what is asked, right?


No, we are supposed to be mind readers and deliver precisely what they didn't know they needed and couldn't tell us. I've had more than a few times where I would deliver what was asked only to be told, "What!?! I didn't mean like *that*!" which kind of irks me as I tend to be "say what you mean and mean what you say" type of person as I can read into things too far at times that I can get me in trouble.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

jbking said:


> INFJ is what I suspect I am as I do have a drive to improve myself and care about others. Still an Ni-dom as I do have a model of the world that compartmentalizes things pretty well. Thus, my function difference is a swap of Te/Fi to Fe/Ti in the middle which makes some sense to me as I do have my emotional moments and can be a big softy, which at times can make working in IT interesting.
> 
> No, we are supposed to be mind readers and deliver precisely what they didn't know they needed and couldn't tell us. I've had more than a few times where I would deliver what was asked only to be told, "What!?! I didn't mean like *that*!" which kind of irks me as I tend to be "say what you mean and mean what you say" type of person as I can read into things too far at times that I can get me in trouble.


Really really interesting... 
Originally for me, I had this silly saviour Fi direction which drove me into IT. Cos I saw the theorectical aspect from uni and saw how it can be applied. No way did this prepare me for the real world situation and this was an absolute shock. It only became more fun after a few years in and then I realised what I learnt at uni WAS useful ! My Ne went on a field day. This was also another shock too. When I troubleshoot with Ne, seeing the data, and then listening to users, I can normally pinpoint with estimation the surrounded areas of issues, and clean it up asap ? 

I don't know if this has been a wrong way to do things or not. Cos my "big picture" P really helps a lot of the time... Really really helps. But, I was never certain on how this is perceived etc. 

That is indeed interesting.... But, how can they expect us to know, and you are right. Now I realised that I had, or I let my P side down. Meaning, I try to do extra and perfect it too. I used to say that people should indeed "say what you mean and mean what you say", but a lot of people now actually say this about IT "IF you do not KNOW, then we can HIRE somebody else !" Crapstick. That is just blackmail. I have also had someone who doesn't know the technologies as managers and then they side with the clients side, and then blamed us as well ?.... It was just crazy. Their expectation is quite sky high ? ... 

Yes, I read way too much into things as well and I have been told that I take things too personally, but others obviously doesn't realise how much IT does, and how much in a way that we shield problems. In a way, I am still in that "blind leading the blind" situation whereby, exactly, how much is too much ? 

In a way, those days are gone, and every bit of IT usage and the time spent is more monitored and scruntinised more strictly... Yes, ITIL. Yes....


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Bago said:


> In a way, those days are gone, and every bit of IT usage and the time spent is more monitored and scruntinised more strictly...


It's a resource like any other company resource. They need to monitor it to make sure it's being utilized properly and either deal with people misusing it (since they are consuming a finite resource that others could be using) or to plan for additional capacity if legitimate usage of the resource is pushing capacity.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

No, you are right. Cos what I have done int he past, is to utilise and maximise the time and the objective to achieve. Not everybody is willing to put down a certain kind of length and money to something. But then again, sometimes the solution is indeed a bit of an overkill, but then that relies on how accurate somebody put the spec in the first place, and see it grow. Even now, I can see that people do not match the growth of IT, alongside growth of businesses as well. I was really lucky to see and work alongside one Dutch Director, and I saw from first hand which part of the system was not implemented, and solution decisions were too quick and dirty that it was not scalable etc. But then again, who would know how businesses will grow etc ? How can you predict ? ...


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Bago said:


> I saw from first hand which part of the system was not implemented, and solution decisions were too quick and dirty that it was not scalable etc. But then again, who would know how businesses will grow etc ? How can you predict ? ...


That's essentially what is going on where I work. There is really no foresight and everything is done by flying by the seat of your pants. I am actually reading ITIL for Dummies right now to get some structure with things. We have separation between the project and operations side of the house. I am on the operations side of the house the they love to use the buzzword "operationalize" to signify the handoff process. The problem is there isn't a process. Operationalize can easily be substituted for dump. We're dumping this project on the operations team because we think it's ready for production.

The problem is we're insanely short staffed (as I said Gartner has pegged us at 5-10% staffed by industry standards) and they're constantly trying to push things through as fast as possible. Basically their lack of foresight, as well as their rushing, leads to shoddy solutions that blow up in our face on the operations side. Their crap projects are now our problems to deal with since we have to keep them running and fix them. Right now I'm trying to better define the process of "operationalizing" (aka handing off) their projects.

In regards to growth of services, it's hard define it from the start of a project. This is another area we don't do anything with where I work and I'm trying to define. We basically wait until we run out of space and get alerts and then react to it. Realistically, you need to constantly monitor and run statistics and then evaluate growth based on that. You should have an initial baseline to define capacity based upon testing but that baseline will get outdated. You best bet is having good monitoring and getting accurate statistics that you can use to grow over time.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

PowerShell said:


> That's essentially what is going on where I work. There is really no foresight and everything is done by flying by the seat of your pants. I am actually reading ITIL for Dummies right now to get some structure with things. We have separation between the project and operations side of the house. I am on the operations side of the house the they love to use the buzzword "operationalize" to signify the handoff process. The problem is there isn't a process. Operationalize can easily be substituted for dump. We're dumping this project on the operations team because we think it's ready for production.
> 
> The problem is we're insanely short staffed (as I said Gartner has pegged us at 5-10% staffed by industry standards) and they're constantly trying to push things through as fast as possible. Basically their lack of foresight, as well as their rushing, leads to shoddy solutions that blow up in our face on the operations side. Their crap projects are now our problems to deal with since we have to keep them running and fix them. Right now I'm trying to better define the process of "operationalizing" (aka handing off) their projects.
> 
> In regards to growth of services, it's hard define it from the start of a project. This is another area we don't do anything with where I work and I'm trying to define. We basically wait until we run out of space and get alerts and then react to it. Realistically, you need to constantly monitor and run statistics and then evaluate growth based on that. You should have an initial baseline to define capacity based upon testing but that baseline will get outdated. You best bet is having good monitoring and getting accurate statistics that you can use to grow over time.


Ok, this sounds like my classic nightmare of the past too. Fire-fighting. 
Surely, it sounded like that they need or want some kind of planning too ? i.e. if in 2 years, at this rate of growth, then this size of capacity? If by this size, then this possibility? etc etc ?? Isn't there like a whitepaper from IBM or other for this kind of thing ?? 

I would definitely ask for the specs and any documentations and considerations from the project and get you guys a definitive copy of those things too for keep sake, in case the baseline moved. Cos what I never used to realise is where things moved to.. and why. I have moved around a lot in different jobs and I have seen a more rounded view, but then I realised that nobody really communicates and let others keep up to date and be included in the considerations ?

I would make them sign a contract now, even if it is to save and consider your baseline when go-live happens...


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Bago said:


> Ok, this sounds like my classic nightmare of the past too. Fire-fighting.
> Surely, it sounded like that they need or want some kind of planning too ? i.e. if in 2 years, at this rate of growth, then this size of capacity? If by this size, then this possibility? etc etc ?? Isn't there like a whitepaper from IBM or other for this kind of thing ??


There are whole books written on capacity management. Basically you need to look at all resources consumed and measure how they are currently being consumed and also track the amount they are being consumed over time so you can establish a trend. You then use that trend to appropriately decide how much additional capacity you will need in a given amount of time.



> I would definitely ask for the specs and any documentations and considerations from the project and get you guys a definitive copy of those things too for keep sake, in case the baseline moved. Cos what I never used to realise is where things moved to.. and why. I have moved around a lot in different jobs and I have seen a more rounded view, but then I realised that nobody really communicates and let others keep up to date and be included in the considerations ?


That's the problem. None of that is being done now. They are literally dumping stuff down with no documentation. My boss is fighting the battle but the problem is it's us vs them and the project side is way bigger and since we have done a decent job scrambling and taking care of things, it isolate the project side from their crappy work and ultimately becomes out of sight and out of mind for them.



> I would make them sign a contract now, even if it is to save and consider your baseline when go-live happens...


That's easier said than done. The contracts are really SLA's and those need to be defined. The problem right now is the go-live is just dumped on us. All of a sudden they go, "Well this is in production now. Support it." It's pretty pathetic and we are a very dysfunctional organization right now. People are jumping ship left and right. I have personally applied for other jobs myself. I guess right now I'm trying to gain as much insight as I can before I move on. Also since I don't really care anymore and am kind of burnt out from the BS, I speak my mind. I will tell people that their implementation is a pile of shit and to fix this, this, and that.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

PowerShell said:


> ...
> That's the problem. None of that is being done now. They are literally dumping stuff down with no documentation. My boss is fighting the battle but the problem is it's us vs them and the project side is way bigger and since we have done a decent job scrambling and taking care of things, it isolate the project side from their crappy work and ultimately becomes out of sight and out of mind for them...


Are you an INTx type ? To me, yes, there is a big area which requires monitoring etc. I would play this one more strategically in the sense that, obtain the "must achieve goals". Then leave behind the small bits of fixes. Cos they have to be more a case of "sustaining". 

I mean, if you do not have time to put things the right way, then one should indeed work with approximation and actually define and refine, and let future change requests to deal with the rest of them. So, even if you cannot actually push back now on the actual bugs, then sure, let them go live, but if it reaches your stage in the production area, then surely it will be a high level SLA of cat 1, right ? Cos it is a fundamental part of the core function. Sure, then let them see their bad workmanships. Cos what else can you do ? If system does A, but system in reality when live does B. I would go by that simple rule. In a way, your frequency of your tickets is supposedly help them refine it further and go through 2nd or 3rd cycle etc. 

To me, I more often than not, do not care for the SLAs, if I am frank. From my own experiences, I go by this simple rule I built in my head over time. I use the business' direction:

Cat 1 - Impact business and cost business x amount of money in terms of customer's orders or COGs (cost of goods sold)
Cat 2 - Does not impact cogs, but impacts internal dept, and many users therefore affect productivities
Cat 3 - Does not impact cogs, and does not impact more than 1 user, ad hoc sporadic issues
Cat 4 - regular routine maintenance, data related, not system. 



> That's easier said than done. The contracts are really SLA's and those need to be defined. The problem right now is the go-live is just dumped on us. All of a sudden they go, "Well this is in production now. Support it." It's pretty pathetic and we are a very dysfunctional organization right now. People are jumping ship left and right. I have personally applied for other jobs myself. I guess right now I'm trying to gain as much insight as I can before I move on. Also since I don't really care anymore and am kind of burnt out from the BS, I speak my mind. I will tell people that their implementation is a pile of shit and to fix this, this, and that.


I'm really sorry to hear that... 
I've been in those BU before too... Yes, push back on the bugs. I do not know if sometimes my NF side will take the bull by the horn, but if you push back, and if the phenomena of fixing bugs is starting, and if other managers also get focused, then people at least can mitigate the risk by solving what they know. It really is motivating to know if others also stay around as well. I was always the one who stays a sinking ship... ironically. Much more detrimental than I like it to be.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Bago said:


> Are you an INTx type ? To me, yes, there is a big area which requires monitoring etc. I would play this one more strategically in the sense that, obtain the "must achieve goals". Then leave behind the small bits of fixes. Cos they have to be more a case of "sustaining".


No I'm an ENTP. I've just had enough stuff blow up in my face and can pick up trends.


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## countrygirl90 (Oct 11, 2012)

Whatever department or field of technology a woman may be, she would be always judged as incompetent compared to man at first but once you prove your metal and skill in your field ,I don't think anyone would think less of what you truly deserve to be .
And in IT field more and more women are emerging as a top position employee compared to men ,which proves that women indeed are equally competent and respect worthy to men in this field of technology.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

countrygirl90 said:


> Whatever department or field of technology a woman may be, she would be always judged as incompetent compared to man at first but once you prove your metal and skill in your field ,I don't think anyone would think less of what you truly deserve to be .
> And in IT field more and more women are emerging as a top position employee compared to men ,which proves that women indeed are equally competent and respect worthy to men in this field of technology.


I also work in the IT field, and I have never felt inferior to my fellow male coworkers. They pretty much treated me as equally efficient, even if I'm a woman and am immigrant. During interviews I have also felt no difference for being a woman, I wag equally evaluated of my skills and appreciated for my knowledge. The only thing that I might have felt is probably a bit of difficulty when it comes to male bonding, specially coz I'm shy, but even so everyone has been friendly.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

countrygirl90 said:


> Whatever department or field of technology a woman may be, she would be always judged as incompetent compared to man at first but once you prove your metal and skill in your field ,I don't think anyone would think less of what you truly deserve to be .
> And in IT field more and more women are emerging as a top position employee compared to men ,which proves that women indeed are equally competent and respect worthy to men in this field of technology.


The only time a woman is going to be treated differently is if she becomes overly emotional or more emotional for a situation than what a guy would. A lot of people in IT have a strong preference of thinking of feeling so any time any big emotions come into play, it's more of, "wtf."


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## countrygirl90 (Oct 11, 2012)

AriesLilith said:


> I also work in the IT field, and I have never felt inferior to my fellow male coworkers. They pretty much treated me as equally efficient, even if I'm a woman and am immigrant. During interviews I have also felt no difference for being a woman, I wag equally evaluated of my skills and appreciated for my knowledge. The only thing that I might have felt is probably a bit of difficulty when it comes to male bonding, specially coz I'm shy, but even so everyone has been friendly.


One thing I know about working in technical field is, don't differentiate yourself based on your gender with your colleagues , I myself never felt as if I'm a woman so they won't socialize with me ,instead I always try to be open and friendly with other gender .Be confident about yourself ,no need to feel shy ,life is all about coming out of your comfort zone .People will bond with you not because you are male or female but because you are a good at what you do and are a awesome ,smart and friendly person ,gender doesn't matters there.



PowerShell said:


> The only time a woman is going to be treated differently is if she becomes overly emotional or more emotional for a situation than what a guy would. A lot of people in IT have a strong preference of thinking of feeling so any time any big emotions come into play, it's more of, "wtf."


Yeah ,my brother who too works in IT field told me about his manager who is a woman and although being at such a good position she easily gets intimidated by employees who are at position less then hers ,what baffles me most is that she has the power to discipline them, but still she would whine about how helpless she is and then start something about her family problems ,really that's totally unprofessional thing to do,no matter what goes on in your personal life don't let it affect your professional life and vice-versa .


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