# Are there any more rational MBTI communities? A critique.



## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

If you want to find more "rational" communities, it is your own responsibility to go about finding them. If this place does not suit your idea of what an MBTI community should be, then find one that does, or better yet, create one. I don't understand what the problem is here...I don't know about others, but I don't consider it my responsibility to pander to your views on what constitutes rationality...


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## MonogamyIsNice (Mar 21, 2012)

remMUS said:


> If you want to find more "rational" communities, it is your own responsibility to go about finding them. If this place does not suit your idea of what an MBTI community should be, then find one that does, or better yet, create one. I don't understand what the problem is here...I don't know about others, but I don't consider it my responsibility to pander to your views on what constitutes rationality...


I'm not sure where you've gotten this pretense that I might think it's your "responsibility" to respond to this thread, let alone for you to pander to my views? You seem to have lost yourself in your words to such a degree that you've found it okay to insinuate that I shouldn't have spoken at all. I suppose it isn't your responsibility to be remotely decent toward me, or to live up to the most basic perpetuation of the golden rule, either. But it would certainly be nice if you would.

While you act like you're in a position to dictate to me what my responsibility is, and what I am not allowed to do - I would note that this is merely your personal opinion, and that the moderation present on this forum, as well as many other people who have replied seem quite fine with the existence of this thread, and its *multiple purposes* - all of which I am welcome to have enacted, despite what you may think.

Your hasty reaction and inconsideration have left you simply mistaken as to what I have even said, although it's plain as day. My OP does not speak specifically of "this place", as you seem to think it does. And I simply never insinuated that the way that this place, or any other portion of the greater MBTI community shouldn't be as it is. I spoke toward the end of the development of a sub-community, without being disrespectful or in any way seeking to exert an influence over what anyone is doing as it is.

And, if you disagree with these claims that I have made - I ask that you perform the simple task of quoting anything from the original post that proves otherwise. Short of this, it is noted that you've merely asserted some falsehoods as to what I've said - a straw man. I will not be engaging in the illusory argument you've setup for yourself.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

Azure_Sky said:


> If you are looking to learn more about the subject, there are plenty of books and information online on Myers-Briggs. These kind of communities are helpful if you want to learn about others through the questions they ask, how they respond to things, and what they share about themselves. It's interesting to find out what people have and do not have in common on sites like these. Then again, everyone has their own reasons for visiting MBTI communities. Even if people ask questions that may not seem to have correlation, people have the right to express their curiosity and to have fun.


Very well put.

One really can learn a lot from that. Even if those threads seem annoying or worthless.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

@_MonogamyIsLame_
I've been thinking about this some more.
I think what you are overlooking is this: silly kids and "rational communities" are two sides of the same coin when it comes to the internet. I.e. let's imagine a world without internet: unless you are very priviliged (very well educated and have access to resources _and_ time to study) you'd be stuck in your village/town/neighbourhood on your own and wouldn't be able to meet any intellectual people, or not as many as you might wish to. So you'd be stuck in your village with idiots and no access to intellectuals. With the internet, at least you have access to intellectuals, but everybody else is on the internet as well, so you come across even more idiots.*

*Personally, I don't think people who post weird questions are idiots because how are they supposed to learn without asking questions. I'm just using flowery language


Anyway, here's some a suggestions (I know it sounds like a bossy INTJ thing, but it's only an idea):
You could start collecting a list of silly misconceptions about the MBTI, write them up and also write up scientific arguments (with citations if possible!!!!) to disprove them. Then ask the mods to put your article as a sticky at the top of each type forum.

You could think of some essay questions (they don't even need to be very advanced) and start a thread where people post their essay and critique each others work. (There are such threads already, but maybe you'd like to start an essay thread where people have to use quotes and a bibliography, like at uni?)

Or, you could start a thread here people collect their questions about inconsistencies/ outstanding issues in the various models, collect all the questions and email them to the authors of the books.... 

Or you could write an even simpler intor to MBTI than the ones already available on here to teach the kiddies the basics. 

Who knows, people might be interested in working together with you on that. _I _might be interested in it myself.

Now, what are your ideas?


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## Staffan (Nov 15, 2011)

While I would enjoy a subforum with a more rational and scientific profile, it should be noted that the MBTI itself is not that rational or scientific. That's why most scientific researchers in personality psychology avoid it. None of those who developed it are, as you claim, "esteemed scientists in their field". 

So a forum like that would have to be very skeptical of the MBTI and also discuss other models like the Big Five, the Alternative Five, Cloningers model, and others. Sadly, there isn't much discussion about such things on the internet. I guess that might reflect the dominance of social psychology in Academia, but also the fact that dimensional models - which all the research support - tell the majority that they are average. It's easier to sell people on typology which tells everyone that they are special.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

@MonogamyIsLame 

I don't have any particular problem with your contention that there are many lowbrow threads on this forum, however, rather than waste time splitting semantic hairs on this thread, why not set the example by creating more highbrow threads that meet your standards? 
Have at.


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## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

MonogamyIsLame said:


> I'm not sure where you've gotten this pretense that I might think it's your "responsibility" to respond to this thread, let alone for you to pander to my views? You seem to have lost yourself in your words to such a degree that you've found it okay to insinuate that I shouldn't have spoken at all. I suppose it isn't your responsibility to be remotely decent toward me, or to live up to the most basic perpetuation of the golden rule, either. But it would certainly be nice if you would.
> 
> While you act like you're in a position to dictate to me what my responsibility is, and what I am not allowed to do - I would note that this is merely your personal opinion, and that the moderation present on this forum, as well as many other people who have replied seem quite fine with the existence of this thread, and its *multiple purposes* - all of which I am welcome to have enacted, despite what you may think.
> 
> ...


I haven't insinuated anything at all. It is you losing yourself in the sea of words. I'm just suggesting a more rational solution to the more general problem you're describing. I never implied anything about impinging your ability to speak your mind. I could not care any less whether you post or not; if that is how perceived it, then that is entirely your prerogative, but I did not intend that. I saw something and I responded to it. I don't understand where you arrived at the notion.

I didn't dictate anyone's responsibility. Again your perception is not for me to control. I just proposed a more viable solution.

I've merely asserted falsehoods? Where specifically did I assert any falsehoods? It's ok if you're hurt. *hugs* feel better. God that felt irrational . Thanks for the wikipedia link. I didn't know that at all. Your straw man argument is itself a straw man. I'm simply proposing a solution based on what I read and responding to it based on how I perceived your argument as I fear our view on "rationality" may not be identical. I'm just tossing out an idea. It's not illusory at all. It goes back to the very foundation of this whole argument and your premise of what constitutes rational. I'm just questioning the foundation for your presumption of what is rational and irrational, which may not be as universal as you believe. My suggestion is that you'd be better served if you did something more constructive than posting about it as that would likely generate the results that you're seeking with this sort of thing.

You won't be engaging in the "illusory" argument and yet you've responded to my post. Which is it? Make up your mind and then get back to me, ok?


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## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

MonogamyIsLame said:


> Where-as other profiling systems like the enneagram and socionics have a marked limitation here (akin to astrology, which is founded instead on superstition and sheer possibility), the MBTI is a legitimate science and system of profiling which is forged on our current understandings of psychology. The degrees to which it is empirically backed have steadily been coming into view, where-as there isn't even a beginning point in sight for such progress among these other systems, which clearly do not share any of the characteristics of what can actually be considered a science, or psychology.


Just for you since you like referencing wikipedia so much (go down to the 'Validity' section): Myers-Briggs Type Indicator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You may also want to reconsider your representation of socionics (go down to 'Development and Criticisms'): Socionics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

I'm completely fine with you trying to create a community that engenders the creation of a meeting place for like-minded individuals. It's admirable, which is why I suggested that it might be more suitable to create such a location. However, I will ask you to be more thorough before making such sweeping statements in the future. It doesn't seem like a very "rational" thing to do.


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## Raichu (Aug 24, 2012)

I don't think that just because some people are confused about Myers-Briggs means that the community isn't "rational." Even when people post stuff like "Do all xxxx's like cats?!" at least you know they want to learn. They're not off watching Spongebob or something, you know? Not that I'm trying to insult Spongebob, I love Spongebob. I'm just saying that even the stupid threads on PerC are usually at least trying to be smart or to learn, and there's something to be said for that. So what we do is focus on the positive, help each other out, and don't be such krabby patties. Like whoever up there said, I'm too lazy to look, but they said to fight it by making more intelligent posts, which I think is a good plan.


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## Dashing (Sep 19, 2011)

Bullshitters usually get called out. Nothing more you can do. Wouldn't hurt losing the horoscopes though.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Dashing said:


> Bullshitters usually get called out. Nothing more you can do. Wouldn't hurt losing the horoscopes though.


Bullshitters are not used to getting called out. They haven't considered that possibility exists.


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## Dashing (Sep 19, 2011)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Bullshitters are not used to getting called out. They haven't considered that possibility exists.


Bullshit.


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## killemdeader (Dec 22, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Bullshitters are not used to getting called out. They haven't considered that possibility exists.


*sigh*


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Dashing said:


> Bullshit.


I'm calling you out. :tongue:


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

@_MonogamyIsLame_

I see what you mean in the OP and yes it is a bit disconcerting to see that the depth of the threads are very shallow indeed.
But still they are generated by the people of that type, mistypes or people seeking out their idealized vision of that type.
The problem is actually a luxury problem of the mind, once you have gotten a firm understanding of the system,
then all the threads of confused people get annoying, then when you decend even deeper the threads of the
somewhat informed too become annoying. For every plunge deeper you will find less and less value in the less deep perspectives.
If you want to raise the bar then you need to be willing to "educate the masses". A major task no doubt.

Still it isn't the forums fault as climbing the tree of understanding isn't optional, helicopter rides to the top don't excist.
So you can't really expect a community of people who caters to everyone beginner and advanced to tighten the rules
of admitance because the more knowledgable users don't relate to the less knowledgable people.
If you impose arbitraty limits like only VIP members get to post in a certain forum you exclude all the people who have former knowledge. And people who have played "the post above me" can still enter.

Short of starting your own forum... you would need some well regulated sub-forum.
Sound too much stress for me as I generally manage to thread trough the meaningless and often find gems in what others
define as filth. Cause after all these people have the psychology that we are trying to understand.

Mostly this comes down to energy and if you feel that the energy payoff is great enough to pester some moderator
to create some new sub-forum or start your own site then by all means be my guest.

I would just create my own threads with detailed disclaimers about what the topic was about and asking for mod assistance if
anyone started to do ignorant trolling. Now this is probably not acceptable for you hence the making of this thread.
But if there was a need for this sub-forum it would probably be here, so there is just not enough popular demand.
A shit out of luck issue, basically.
Why don't you design a website/blog that you can link at to this site with all the trappings of what you describe.
Then you can block any ip from "ignorant" people and have informed discussions with whomever of like mind who chose
to join you there.


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## DlusionAl (Apr 9, 2011)

@_MonogamyIsLame_

Ok so I have a couple questions then because there are a few things that dont make sense to me

You talk about how you would rather see more rational or logical posts in the MBTI community but I want to stop you right there because thats the first part that doesnt make sense to be. Anyways Im sure you have probably come across someone saying this to you before but Im going to go ahead and humor myself. First of all the MBTI isnt really that rational to begin with. To attempt to categorize the complexity of the human mind and interactions into 16 personality types and treat it as some sort of scientific fact is borderline insane. There have been numerous surveys done on how about 50% of the population that takes the test test differently every time. Thats half, not the small percentage of people with mental disorders, half. Heres one article on it if you are curious. http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/develop/mbti.pdf 
So for about half this test is about as accurate as rolling dice. And each test you take can be different, the whole thing is fairly unregulated for something so logical. 
And no Im not just reading one article on it and suddenly deciding that its all fact. Its fun to take the test and find out what type you are, its also fun to talk with other people who have similar personalities or ask people for advice and so on. But thats it, its all good fun. It can be helpful and such sometimes but its better to treat it as fun. You seem to be stuck on the idea that the MBTI is a true science when its not at all, it has too many flaws and is way too vague to be considered so. So in the end calling some peoples questions illogical about the MBTI doesnt make sense which is why its hard for me to answer the rest of your post.


I also cant help but think you arent really looking for logical people but rather people just like you. Im not saying you are illogical or anything like that but its just the way it comes off. You say "the rational minds that share your thought" which implies that other thoughts are irrational. You cant be that surprised when some people may take offence to it. Adding a disclaimer saying you dont mean any offence or not meaning to cause a negative atmosphere doesnt mean you can say whatever you want and expect people not to be annoyed. Anyways regardless if you are or arent you find communities like that on the internet. Kill any hopes immediately or be constantly disappointed. 

Oh and on a side note, if you are trolling then you are pretty awesome at that.


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## dinitrophenol (Dec 29, 2012)

MonogamyIsLame said:


> Let me be clear from the outset that it is not my intent to create a negative atmosphere here. I'll be referencing what is plainly observable, without personal judgement or an air of entitlement from which I might ask people to stop what they're doing.
> 
> All of the online MBTI communities I am familiar with are inundated with posts which I personally consider to be quite off-topic, and otherwise repelling to the rational mind. A few examples of this, for the sake of further identifying what I am speaking of, and what it is that detracts from my desired use and development of the MBTI community would include:
> 
> ...


tl;dr


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## MonogamyIsNice (Mar 21, 2012)

Well, it has been a long time since I authored the OP.. and I just went googling today to see if anything like what I'm interested in has emerged, yet, and the closest result I found was my own thread. Maybe I should make my own community. But I don't have the tiiiime!

Things have definitely only gotten worse, though. Much worse.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)




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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

If people wanted, they could find all the answers online about anything if they researched enough. So then MBTI forums would be pointless. How many times has someone asked the exact same question someone else has asked in another thread? Many times I bet. But let's face it: this is a problem all forums have, and the searching for particular posts is often so bad in most forums (especially this one in my experience) and requires you to put in a code to prove you're human etc. it's just a lot of hassle. I used to just use search engines if I wanted the answer to something rather than ask on a forum. But the main point in a forum isn't that YOU can ask the questions - as I said, many others may have asked the same things before. Forums create a community where people can come together and have discussions and interact with other people. Saying that there shouldn't be threads about stuff that's "off topic" is like saying that going to a book club and talking about movies is "off topic" and shouldn't be allowed. Forums are not some exclusive club - they're a place where people can meet - much like a pub but more civilised and without the need to arrange a specific date and time or be there in person. Anyone can join and engage in conversation with other people. Another way is to think of it as being like an exchange of text messages, but with other members. There's not a regulating body which has to dictate what's allowed and what isn't. There are plenty of "rational" and "on topic" and serious discussions available, and often they're pinned posts in the relevant sections. I understand that some people take MBTI too far but they generally aren't looking to write a scientific paper on their findings of whether "XXXXs like cats". They just want to have a casual/friendly chat with members of that type. If every post was "intelligent" or led us to some higher truth about MBTI, then the whole theory would undergo constant development. I know I'm taking your point to the extremes, but you need to understand that a forum is a public place. I personally think PerC is amongst the best forums I've come across in terms of the way it's organized and the community. People are intelligent, friendly and open to talking about almost anything without judging you. I very rarely see spam or trolling or hate - although I'm fairly new here.


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