# ISTJ or INTJ?



## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

I've been lurking here a while, but this is my first post.

I've taken various tests several times and I get ISTJ or INTJ with equal frequency. So I'm wondering if I can get some help.

A little about me: 28, female, work in scientific research, specifically as a copyeditor. My attention to detail led me into that career path, but in all honesty, I only care about the small details _if it's something I care about_; then I start to trainspot. Otherwise, I can let housework go for weeks at a time because to me that kind of thing isn't important. My surroundings don't mean that much to me. People have observed to me that when they pass me on the street, it's like I'm lost in my own little world. I spend a lot of time analyzing stuff, over and over, until I've mastered or understood the concept fully. I plan and re-plan things out endlessly, thinking of ways that things could go. However, once I get an idea, it becomes stuck in my head and will. Not. Let. Go. I follow the rules most of the time (when I see a reason for them), I'm never late, I like routine and schedules, and I respect the authority of (smart, competent) people (for example, my boss is a pedantic buffoon, but I don't say that out loud). 

I describe myself as strong-willed and independent. I have been described as intense, smart, and sarcastic--but difficult to get to know because I don't talk a lot. I find it hard to make superficial chit chat with people. I mean, what are you supposed to say to them if you had no interest in them in the first place? I get the feeling I have this giant invisible "f off" sign on my forehead that keeps people at arm's distance. A coworker once said to another coworker about me: "I get the feeling she doesn't like me." (my thought: it's not you, it's me; stop being so insensitive). I don't make friends easily, nor do people confide in me. Even my family have a hard time understanding me; I can go for weeks on end not communicating with people frequently. I am not religious and hate politics. I am skeptical and don't trust people easily. I can't stand people who are false; I can see right through that quite easily.

I love to read and read about 150 books a year. I have an online catalogue of my books that I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive about organizing and checking. I love the study of history and do crossword puzzles when I get time.

I typed strongly as I and T (hate spending too much time with large groups of people; need to have a lot of down time to recuperate. Often have trouble relating to people emotionally; sometimes have difficulty identifying my own emotions or showing them). Moderately strong J.

Relationships are tough for me; I've only been in one significant relationship, back in college. Reason for the breakup was (from his point of view) that I have trouble communicating (he had similar problems, IMO). Even now, when I'm attracted to someone, I basically ignore them. I don't know how to interact with them. I have recently tried to do online dating, but I find all the people on there incredibly superficial or looking for someone superficial.

About 4 years ago I was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, though I don't think it has anything to do with MBTI type.

Any thoughts? I guess this is a lot to say for a first post. Thanks!


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## TwistMeSweetly (May 19, 2012)

I would say ISTJ truthfully, but that's my own belief. Your love for solid facts (such as history) leads me to believe your an S over a N.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

kasthu said:


> I've been lurking here a while, but this is my first post.
> 
> I've taken various tests several times and I get ISTJ or INTJ with equal frequency. So I'm wondering if I can get some help.
> 
> A little about me: 28, female, work in scientific research, specifically as a copyeditor. My attention to detail led me into that career path, but in all honesty, I only care about the small details _if it's something I care about_; then I start to trainspot. Otherwise, I can let housework go for weeks at a time because to me that kind of thing isn't important. My surroundings don't mean that much to me. People have observed to me that when they pass me on the street, it's like I'm lost in my own little world. I spend a lot of time analyzing stuff, over and over, until I've mastered or understood the concept fully. I plan and re-plan things out endlessly, thinking of ways that things could go. However, once I get an idea, it becomes stuck in my head and will. Not. Let. Go.


Lost in the world inside your head is very iNtuitive. 



> I follow the rules most of the time (when I see a reason for them), I'm never late, I like routine and schedules, and I respect the authority of (smart, competent) people (for example, my boss is a pedantic buffoon, but I don't say that out loud).


All of this is xxTJ. 



> I describe myself as strong-willed and independent. I have been described as intense, smart, and sarcastic--but difficult to get to know because I don't talk a lot. I find it hard to make superficial chit chat with people. I mean, what are you supposed to say to them if you had no interest in them in the first place? I get the feeling I have this giant invisible "f off" sign on my forehead that keeps people at arm's distance. A coworker once said to another coworker about me: "I get the feeling she doesn't like me." (my thought: it's not you, it's me; stop being so insensitive). I don't make friends easily, nor do people confide in me. Even my family have a hard time understanding me; I can go for weeks on end not communicating with people frequently. I am not religious and hate politics. I am skeptical and don't trust people easily. I can't stand people who are false; I can see right through that quite easily.
> 
> I love to read and read about 150 books a year. I have an online catalogue of my books that I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive about organizing and checking. I love the study of history and do crossword puzzles when I get time.
> 
> ...


History, crossword puzzles, and lots of books sounds ISTJ. 
But ISTJs tend to be really good at small talk. Ridiculously, curiously good at it. Sensors, generally have that knack. 

I'm going with INTJ. You say you think about all the possible ways things could turn out. Planning is a TJ thing. ISTJs learn by physically doing something so if you're not interested in what's happening externally (the sensory details) that speaks intuition. Also, the way you say that most people on online dating sites are superficial feels iNtuitive insight, as well. 

As far as details are concerned, all the INTJs I know are incredibly aware of all the details in their house. If you move one dime from the coffee table to the book shelf they'll notice. Not all of them but a lot of the INTJ friends I have are like that. That's more Se details (i.e. the red folder is on the coffee table). Also, they're insanely organized and kind of hyper nuts about it more so than with ISTJs who are more laid back. 

ISTJs have tough times making friends, too. But I always wonder why that is because they seem much better at relating to people. iNtuitives can often have that dilemma of feeling weird. ISTJs are, from my observations, really easy to approach. That Si (an emotional perception as it contains the physical memory of both pain and pleasure) makes them warm and approachable despite the coldness of the IxTJ.

INTJs, on the other hand, are very rarely approached by people. I personally enjoy approaching them but they do seem rather cold and aloof which others might find intimidating which it sounds like you've observed to be other people's initial reactions to you. I find that cold distance more approachable in some regards but I'm an ENTP so I understand it--being that I can be rather unaware of the existence of people around me, too.


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## Inure Penumbra (May 13, 2012)

INTJ.

-lengthening message-


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## TwistMeSweetly (May 19, 2012)

I just looked back over this, and realized you may also be an INTJ using a process of elimination way to figure it out.  ISTJ would work too.


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## chwoey (Mar 29, 2012)

I see ISTJ in this... My father is INTJ and my ex-boyfriend was ISTJ, I see more of you in my boyfriend than my father... But its just my experience, I'm no expert.


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## Artycat27 (Jan 27, 2010)

intjjjjjj.


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## Praesepe (Dec 4, 2011)

I would firmly say ISTJ. The "lost in your own world" bit could be attributed to your Asperger's diagnosis (not being aware of others). This does not automatically make you intuitive. You display the hallmarks traits of an ISTJ, with or without the Asperger's diagnosis. You depend on knowing what is expected of you as demonstrated by some of the comments in your post and you respect competence displayed in authority figures:



> I spend a lot of time analyzing stuff, over and over, until I've mastered or understood the concept fully. I plan and re-plan things out endlessly, thinking of ways that things could go. However, once I get an idea, it becomes stuck in my head and will. Not. Let. Go. I follow the rules most of the time (when I see a reason for them), *I'm never late, I like routine and schedules*, and *I respect the authority* of (smart, competent) people (for example, my boss is a pedantic buffoon, but I don't say that out loud).


From Personality Junkie:



> ISTJs quickly develop habits and routines. In this sense, they are opposite of ENPs, who are consciously opposed to doing the same thing twice. Their penchant for routines also speaks to ISTJs’ reliance on the left side of the brain, which prefers redundancy and predictably over novelty and spontaneity. Because they are creatures of routine, ISTJs like to know what to expect; they want to know the plan.


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## Praesepe (Dec 4, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> But ISTJs tend to be really good at small talk. Ridiculously, curiously good at it. (No) Sensors, generally have that knack.


Please refrain from stereotypical statements that are generally unfounded and baseless. Sensors good at small talk? The need to communicate is rooted in the cognitive functions. You cannot take a bit of information that is meant to help with the very elementary basics of typing and make a blanket statement. If what you say is true (it isn't) and all sensors generally have a good command over the small talk arena, then it is apparent that you did not consider how the OP's Asperger's affects her ability(comfort) to carry on a conversation at sustained length _period_. INTJs don't mind talking if it's about concepts and generally "larger" (for lack of a better word) topics. In a typical ISTJ's functional stack, the need to constantly communicate is not very high. Accomplishing whatever task set before them is what's most important. This characteristic could contribute to misunderstandings, especially in a work environment: 



> I get the feeling I have this giant invisible "f off" sign on my forehead that keeps people at arm's distance. A coworker once said to another coworker about me: "*I get the feeling she doesn't like me." (my thought: it's not you, it's me; stop being so insensitive)*.





marzipan01 said:


> Also, the way you say that most people on online dating sites are superficial feels iNtuitive insight, as well.


It doesn't require much depth to see that. Her making that observation speaks nothing of her insight.



marzipan01 said:


> As far as details are concerned, all the INTJs I know are incredibly aware of all the details in their house *(I sure ain't)*. If you move one dime from the coffee table to the book shelf they'll notice. Not all of them but a lot of the INTJ friends I have are like that. That's more Se details (i.e. the red folder is on the coffee table). Also, they're insanely organized and kind of hyper nuts about it more so than with ISTJs who are more laid back.*(????)*


Please tell me..._where_ you are getting this information from?



marzipan01 said:


> ISTJs have tough times making friends, too. But I always wonder why that is because they seem much better at relating to people. iNtuitives can often have that dilemma of feeling weird. ISTJs are, from my observations, really easy to approach. That Si (an emotional perception as it contains the physical memory of both pain and pleasure) makes them warm and approachable despite the coldness of the IxTJ.


No the warmth that you talk about with Si, would be conveyed by extroverted feeling (Fe). ISTJs don't exude warmth and that's quite okay.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Brel said:


> Please refrain from stereotypical statements that are generally unfounded and baseless. Sensors good at small talk? The need to communicate is rooted in the cognitive functions. You cannot take a bit of information that is meant to help with the very elementary basics of typing and make a blanket statement. If what you say is true (it isn't) and all sensors generally have a good command over the small talk arena, then it is apparent that you did not consider how the OP's Asperger's affects her ability(comfort) to carry on a conversation at sustained length _period_. INTJs don't mind talking if it's about concepts and generally "larger" (for lack of a better word) topics.


1. I have some pretty strong hunches about the relationship between Asperger's, Schizophrenia, Schizotypal personality, AD(H)D and the iNtuitive functions that are based on scientific research that seems to link this with genetics and dopamine. 
2. Talking about big picture concepts =/= not small talk. 
If you are an iNtuitive (big picture/possibilities) type, you are not likely to enjoy small talk for long periods of time. That is the definition of iNtuitive type. If you are a sensor you probably enjoy talking about details, the here and now, etc. (i.e. small talk) which is the definition of a sensor in the first place.

The only exception to this that I have ever encountered are the ISFPs who, for some reason, are the only sensors who seem to be able to talk at length about the esoteric and profound. 



> In a typical ISTJ's functional stack, the need to constantly communicate is not very high. Accomplishing whatever task set before them is what's most important. This characteristic could contribute to misunderstandings, especially in a work environment:
> 
> It doesn't require much depth to see that. Her making that observation speaks nothing of her insight
> 
> Please tell me..._where_ you are getting this information from?


My personal observations of these types in real people is that ISTJs are more friendly/willing to talk about what is happening in the room. This makes them, in a sense, "warmer" and "friendlier" by that I mean they are easier to go up and talk to by most people's standards and that's just a fact of the matter. Most of the ISTJ and ESTJ guys I've ever met are great at cracking jokes. ISTJ women have been kind of quirky and their eyes light up when they can discuss details about who is wearing what or what they're working on (i.e. small talk). 

As far as the detail oriented situation with INTJs (which as I said not all of them are like that), I have observed that among a few of my INTJ friends an almost "Monk" (as in the show Monk) like gift at details if you understand what I'm saying. While the ISTJs I know are also very organized, they are not as obsessive as these few Monk-like INTJ friends of mine who, btw, happen to be also very ambitious long-term thinkers (future oriented Ni planning as is characteristic of INTJ). 

Whereas, on the other hand ISTJs I have known, while they have long term goals and work toward them, and draw up lots of plans, schedules and lists, follow the protocol, write out instructions and while they follow the list, they sort of exist in the moment and appear to be less high strung. The energy of my ISTJ friends is just more relaxed in a sense as compared to my INTJ friends who seem to be keeping track of all these plans inside their heads.



> No the warmth that you talk about with Si, would be conveyed by extroverted feeling (Fe). ISTJs don't exude warmth and that's quite okay.


ISTJs appear to me more emotionally expressive than INTJs. Neither are emotionally expressive but ISTJs are actually more expressive. You can see it in their eyes. ISTJs tear up more easily--react more suddenly to a single word that touches a nerve or react very positively to a topic or sentence that touches a key interest. Closest thing I've seen to that was when an INTJ friend of mine was very very very very very drunk, on the phone with me, and talking about a time when he did cry--that one time so long ago. Otherwise, I've never seen an INTJ with so much as a hint of a tear. When they're excited or they like something there appears to be a somber enthusiasm. You know they like what you're talking about or possibly you because they continue to speak to you not because of any inflection in their voice. 

Supposedly, feelers are the only ones who exude warmth par definition. But I'm far too terrified of most feelers in real life to have enough experience to say much about them other than general musings on why they may have freaked me out most recently. Among the thinkers, ESTJs and ISTJs are among the warmest in my experience (I correlate them with enneagram types with 621). They are the most aware of social norms and etiquette-abiding, typically seen to be upstanding citizens, ethical, and dutiful. That's not just what I've observed, that's also according to most descriptions of these types. 

At any rate, it is possible that the OP is an ISTJ with Asperger's Syndrome with strong Ne possibly lending a hand to the more intuitive aspects of her personality which I am picking up on. 

For the record, I've noticed that a lot of people on this forum (and possibly in real life) seem to mistake Ne statements as stereotypes. In actuality, I cannot help but make "stereotypes" which are trends based on my experience (i.e. Si ---> Ne).


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## Praesepe (Dec 4, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> 1. I have some pretty strong hunches about the relationship between Asperger's, Schizophrenia, Schizotypal personality, AD(H)D and the iNtuitive functions that are based on scientific research that seems to link this with genetics and dopamine.


Hunches don't' necessarily constitute as strong evidence. I know that Schizotypal personality does correlate very closely with the INTP psychological type, but again typifying theses disorders with the iNtuitive functions is unsound and any claim suggestive to the stance should be proceeded with caution. In fact I would like some studies or at least an article to help verify or support that claim. 

As far as I know, Asperger's syndrome is an autism spectrum disorder that characteristics include difficulties with social interaction, inability/slowness to pick up non-verbal codifiers, facial expressions, exhibit empathy and typified by social and physical awkwardness (apparently more than is generally allowed). Certain traits, from the lay prospective, in Asperger's syndrome correlates with OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder), the "compulsive" need to engage in repetitive acts and strict adherence to narrow interests. The strictness in regard to interests is the most revelatory aspect of Asperger's Syndrome and I believe relevant to the subject of the OP's type. Within the ISTJ profile, the need to engage in heavily routinized activities, the fastidious attention to detail, the preservation of past methods coupled with the uneasiness toward change correlate links closely with Asperger's syndrome. I remember the intense discussion on Dr. Sheldon Cooper's type in TBBT thread, and the subject around whether or not he displayed the typical traits of an individual afflicted with AS came up. I argued that he was a dominant intuitive because of his lack of physical coordination, limited emotional intelligence and awkwardness, the same reasoning that you are approaching the issue with, basically. Sheldon fit the stereotypical nature of an INTJ, orderly, aloof and confident in his own knowledge. But there were marked differences like his nearly compulsive need to follow certain rituals, to complete his activities by a specific time, and his knowledge was encyclopedic in nature i.e. he had little to no interest in expanding his knowledge on a particular subject for the sake of it, something that introverted iNtuition is more or less characterized by. 

From Wikipedia:


> Individuals with AS may collect volumes of detailed information on a relatively narrow topic such as weather data or star names, without necessarily having a genuine understanding of the broader topic


His primary method for storing knowledge was through Si and the same dominant perceiving function that I suspect the OP to have.

From Cognitive Processes:


> Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





marzipan01 said:


> 2. Talking about big picture concepts =/= not small talk.



I know that. The OP stated the she had syndrome that hinders her ability to forge a relationship with anyone, small talk or not. In the grand scheme of things, her ability to effectively carry on chit-chat says very little about her being intuitive or INTJ for that matter.




marzipan01 said:


> My personal observations of these types in real people is that ISTJs are more friendly/willing to talk about what is happening in the room. This makes them, in a sense, "warmer" and "friendlier" by that I mean they are easier to go up and talk to by most people's standards and that's just a fact of the matter. Most of the ISTJ and ESTJ guys I've ever met are great at cracking jokes. ISTJ women have been kind of quirky and their eyes light up when they can discuss details about who is wearing what or what they're working on (i.e. small talk).


I have no problem with you referencing your past observations to support your claim, but your references seem at best, vague, biased and non-informative. Again the OP has the marked traits of an ISTJ right down to the emotional distance, her AS notwithstanding. ISTJ have tertiary Fi, *similar* to INTJs. An already subjective function, Fi tertiary present in ISTJs and INTJs result in their standoffish nature.




marzipan01 said:


> As far as the detail oriented situation with INTJs (which as I said not all of them are like that), I have observed that among a few of my INTJ friends an almost "Monk" (as in the show Monk) like gift at details if you understand what I'm saying. While the ISTJs I know are also very organized, they are not as obsessive as these few Monk-like INTJ friends of mine who, btw, happen to be also very ambitious long-term thinkers (future oriented Ni planning as is characteristic of INTJ).
> 
> Whereas, on the other hand ISTJs I have known, while they have long term goals and work toward them, and draw up lots of plans, schedules and lists, follow the protocol, write out instructions and while they follow the list, they sort of exist in the moment and appear to be less high strung. The energy of my ISTJ friends is just more relaxed in a sense as compared to my INTJ friends who seem to be keeping track of all these plans inside their heads.


For an INTJ to be that detail and external surroundings oriented as you claim to see in your (unproven) typed INTJs friends would mean two things. One, they are not INTJs or two, they are under a considerable amount of stress. According to my research inferior Se manifests, when under stress, in addictive behaviors, or the Monk-like crippling attention to detail in pursuit of perfection to an (unattainable) ideal. But this has to be placed in context, what situations did you witness your INTJ friends that caused them to be so stressed that their inferior Se manifests in ways that are diametrically opposed to their dominant function? Either they are wrongly mistyped/observed as INTJ or the are under constant stress _all _the time.

ISTJs are much more inflexible with their plans, schedules and deadlines than INTJs because of their dominant function, Si. Si manifest in ways that could be called rigid, mainly because of the function is past-oriented and rather hold fast to the tried and true rather than betting on high-flung theory. 



marzipan01 said:


> ISTJs appear to me more emotionally expressive than INTJs. *Neither are emotionally expressive but ISTJs are actually more expressive*.


You just contradicted yourself. The only sociable edge an ISTJ might have is their ability to adhere to traditional social norms. But INTJs do possess the intuition to make up for their puerile Fi. ISTJs may come off as jerky and not even be aware of it. Both types have tertiary Fi and are emotionally speaking, in the same boat.



marzipan01 said:


> Among the thinkers, ESTJs and ISTJs are among the warmest in my experience. They are *the most aware of social norms and etiquette-abiding, typically seen to be upstanding citizens, ethical, and dutiful.* That's not just what I've observed, that's also according to most descriptions of these types.


Right, but that doesn't constitute as "warmth". The characteristics bolded can be characterized in one word: professional. Has nothing to do with being able to connect with anybody on a social level, in my opinion. That's going along to get along. 



marzipan01 said:


> At any rate, it is possible that the OP is an ISTJ with Asperger's Syndrome with strong Ne possibly lending a hand to the more intuitive aspects of her personality which I am picking up on.


No...I think the obliviousness in social matters could be attributed more or less to the OP's AS, but in general ISTJs, if their Fi is not fully developed could encounter the same problems. Enneagram type could be used to identify the more nuanced behavioral patterns that the MBTI can't sometimes. The OP's social isolation and love of history/trivia knowledge could be connected to type 5, more specifically 5w6.


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## Wakachi (May 24, 2012)

> A little about me: 28, female, work in scientific research, specifically as a copyeditor


Feels ISTJ-ish to start this way because you can log these into a database, and the way you wright seems to strike me as something you can observe up close from the outside.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Brel said:


> For an INTJ to be that detail and external surroundings oriented as you claim to see in your (unproven) typed INTJs friends would mean two things. One, they are not INTJs or two, they are under a considerable amount of stress. According to my research inferior Se manifests, when under stress, in addictive behaviors, or the Monk-like crippling attention to detail in pursuit of perfection to an (unattainable) ideal. But this has to be placed in context, what situations did you witness your INTJ friends that caused them to be so stressed that their inferior Se manifests in ways that are diametrically opposed to their dominant function? Either they are wrongly mistyped/observed as INTJ or the are under constant stress _all _the time.


The INTJ I'm thinking of in particular is, I believe, an INTJ 541. Extremely detail oriented but also very concerned with meaning and big picture. Most detail oriented in the home, particularly when wasted. lol. And being wasted is a kind of stress that brings out inferior functions. And yes, he is wasted most of the time. 



> ISTJs are much more inflexible with their plans, schedules and deadlines than INTJs because of their dominant function, Si. Si manifest in ways that could be called rigid, mainly because of the function is past-oriented and rather hold fast to the tried and true rather than betting on high-flung theory.
> 
> You just contradicted yourself. The only sociable edge an ISTJ might have is their ability to adhere to traditional social norms. But INTJs do possess the intuition to make up for their puerile Fi. ISTJs may come off as jerky and not even be aware of it. Both types have tertiary Fi and are emotionally speaking, in the same boat.
> 
> Right, but that doesn't constitute as "warmth". The characteristics bolded can be characterized in one word: professional. Has nothing to do with being able to connect with anybody on a social level, in my opinion. That's going along to get along.


As I just said while they may not be warm by technical standards of the definition (that title being reserved for feelers), that going along to get along does create a kind of what I would characterize as warmth. 



> No...I think the obliviousness in social matters could be attributed more or less to the OP's AS, but in general ISTJs, if their Fi is not fully developed could encounter the same problems. Enneagram type could be used to identify the more nuanced behavioral patterns that the MBTI can't sometimes. The OP's social isolation and love of history/trivia knowledge could be connected to type 5, more specifically 5w6.


Yes, you bring up some good points and I'm glad you've taken the time to clarify your position as I found it quite interesting.


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## Le9acyMuse (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm also thinking ISTJ. It would be easier to tell through a video.


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## Praesepe (Dec 4, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> The INTJ I'm thinking of in particular is, I believe, an INTJ 541. Extremely detail oriented but also very concerned with meaning and big picture. Most detail oriented in the home, particularly when wasted. lol. And being wasted is a kind of stress that brings out inferior functions. And yes, he is WASTED most of the time.


WOW...needs to get a grapple on his Se then.


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