# Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, therefore...



## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

...at the end of the day, all that really matters is what I think about myself.
or
...at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think about myself.

Which do you agree with more?
Feel free to expand on it if you want.
Would you say that Ti-Fe and Fi-Te users understand/approach this (irritating) idiom differently?


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## zynthaxx (Aug 12, 2009)

Muser said:


> ...at the end of the day, all that really matters is what I think about myself.
> or
> ...at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think about myself.
> 
> ...


What you think of yourself is what motivates much of your actions. Your self-worth and your self-confidence is very closely related to what you think about yourself. Your self-image may be more or less reliant on what other people think of you, but in the end, it is there somewhere as a basis for who you are and what you do. So while I can't really say if it's really _all_ that matters, it does matter a great deal.


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## iemanja (Feb 5, 2012)

ooh fascinating! can't expand on that though, you've pretty much summed up the implications to the phrase 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder.'


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## Saccade (Mar 5, 2012)

I think, therefore I am. What really matters is what you are thinking at the beginning of the day!


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

any one opinion is just as valid and important as another opinion. no one else's opinion is more important than yours. no opinion takes precedence; so you choose the eyes through which you want to view yourself.


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## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

"I choose the eyes through which I view myself."
"Self-image matters a great deal."
That's one way to look at it...but I can't get over the idea that however attractive I think I am means nothing in the objective world. Why bother feeling pretty and hot when others won't be looking at me through my own eyes? And how much credence can I put on my own subjective opinion? Isn't my attractiveness something for _others_ to decide? 

You know what? Perhaps this is just low self-esteem...or inferior Fe gone out of whack.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

Muser said:


> Thanks for the replies, everyone.
> 
> "I choose the eyes through which I view myself."
> "Self-image matters a great deal."
> ...


the world is not objective; they are subjective. if beauty were objective, it would not be in the eye of the beholder, because different eyes find different things attractive. attractiveness is subjective, or else no one would have certain combos of traits known as 'their type' to which they are attracted. some guys like athletic women, some guys like women whose figure is the opposite of athletic but still in shape, some guys like curvy women, some guys like women who are petite, some guys like one physical feature more than another...there are a lot of guys in the world, and they aren't cookie cutters of one another in what they find most attractive. just as i'm sure you've known guys who have been attracted to girls you didn't find particularly attractive, or you've known girls who have been attracted to guys you didn't find good-looking, attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder. 

you behold yourself (in the mirror), don't you? so you are one of the 'beholders' whose eyes determine beauty. there will be those who view you with eyes similar to your own. those who don't, think to yourself, 'well, that is not _everyone_, and my opinion is as valid as theirs.' the more you believe this, the more confident you become, and confidence itself is highly attractive. confidence also makes it easier for your true personality to shine through your face (not hidden by shame or self-rejection), and personality also is attractive. i have known women whose physical appearance i perceived as average _at best_, who don't give it up easily, who have guys chasing them all the time, because - either guys are looking at them through different eyes than mine, or confidence and personality made up for it all. i have been irresistibly physically attracted to men i didn't even find physically attractive (if i viewed them as if in a vacuum, apart from who they were), because their personality and confidence won me over and made up for what was lacking otherwise. there is a _lot more_ to attractiveness than just looks. 

you know, in the end beauty may draw out attention, lust, or initial interest so a guy notices and wants to talk to you, but personality is all that can make someone fall in love with you, and keeps them interested. guys may want to go to bed with a hot girl but they want to _date_ a girl whose personality they like. looks can make someone love your body and want you in that respect, but only personality can make someone love _you_. emotional connection comes through personality, and without that dimension (that is, if it's all physical), relationships fall apart. this isn't a dichotomy - you need _both_ physical and emotional attraction. but confidence and personality increases physical attractiveness, and confidence can have the same effect of turning someone's head to initially notice you as physical beauty can have. 

take care, and believe what you think of yourself - the _positive_ things, that is - when you look in the mirror, and don't let anyone's response to you let you start doubting that...that change in perspective about yourself will make _all the difference in the world_.


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## Finagle (Jun 4, 2011)

Why could we not objectively measure beauty?
Simply take a bunch of photographs from a multitude of different persons, and ask a huge number of random test subjects to choose the traits they think are the most beautiful.
You then compare an object/person to this standard of beauty.
Very simple, really.

In my opinion, it's not really different than lets say, measuring intelligence. But then again, most people know that IQ test aren't worth a damn.. so.... yeah...

Multiple types of intelligence, multiple types of beauty, I guess.

That said...
All that matter to YOU is what you think, regardless of the fact that you are right or wrong about it.


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## AbioticPrime (Sep 1, 2011)

You're definitely onto something -- I think Fi/Te and Fe/Ti will approach it differently.

Also depends on your definition of beauty, though seems to me you're referring to aesthetic beauty.


Certainly Fi would be more concerned with how they personally like their appearance, whereas Fe more concerned with how others might judge their appearance.
Though Fi might be concerned with how others judge their appearance in respect to how others' judgments might make them feel/what image they're trying to uphold of themselves.

I'm not really familiar with Fe but I think they'd be concerned with what others think in relation to how well it makes them fit in/ how well it makes them get along with others.

What do you think?


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## CrabbyPaws (Mar 5, 2012)

In the end of the day, all that really matters is what I think about myself.


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## ParetoCaretheStare (Jan 18, 2012)

There's an idiom in russian, "LOVE IS BLIND, YOU MIGHT FALL IN LOVE WITH A GOAT" (meaning jackass), but the saying is definitely true. I think FPs are the most open to falling in love with random individuals who somehow strike them through things like swagger and human qualities as an individual, although I think people who think more logically, TPs, TJs, etc. would be more prone to expressing what society idealizes beauty to be in the media. After all, logic is a human construct as well.


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## Curiously (Nov 7, 2011)

I'll preface my response by stating that I will likely have ongoing personal battles with my self-image, but I'm somehow seeing myself in a much less harsher light these days...maybe I'm actually starting to love myself more (shrug). 
This is my main point: I've been the recipient of enough men bestowing adoration and affection upon me and part of that was initially based on their finding me attractive, pleasing to their eyeballs. But guess what? Despite that fact and the additional fact that they liked me also for my personality, I still felt _that _wasn't enough. It wasn't enough because I didn't like or love myself enough. In other words, I realized, and still realize, that I need to find myself good enough, and that includes my physicality. I'm 5'2", for example, so I'll never, ever be a statuesque model-type who is 5'10" with long, slender limbs. I can go on and on about what I will never achieve in the looks/physical department, but I'd rather not because I'm no longer keen on dumping on myself. I think I've written way too much, but I'll just reiterate my point: I think it's most beneficial, especially for your peace of mind, if you can start perceiving yourself in a more loving light. Yeah, that sounds corny, but it's the capital 'T' Truth. It honestly starts from within. Anytime you rest most of your self-worth on what others think and negate or undervalue your own self-worth, it will backfire on you 9 times out of 10, I guarantee this. If I'm mistaken, then prove me wrong, but something tells me I'm not in this case - and no, I'm not into being the right one.


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## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

I apologise for not responding earlier. That's why I hate starting threads; I'm expected to follow-up, so I procrastinate.

Again, thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts - all of which were very personal and encouraging (which I didn't expect).
Apart my making myself feel good (until I'm faced with reality again), I still don't see how my own opinion of my appearance should have any weight. I hate "dumping on myself" too but I take solace in believing that I'm being honest with myself. It's not fun, but I guess it's another brand of 'peace of mind'.
What can I say? I'm one depressed individual.

Thanks, all. Lots to mull over and work on.


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

I don't know if it's depression, low self worth, strong Ti or whatever but I can say that my approach to this seems similar to yours @Muser. The way I see it 99.9% of the day I'm not looking in a mirror so my "beauty" can't, and doesn't, affect me. I can go to a casual pub straight from an interview dressed in a suit without the slightest discomfort or could (except for societal expectations) go to an interview dressed casually without it affecting my self image or performance. The expectations nail down your second statement as my personal truth - how you are perceived by others is more important and if you can manipulate that to your advantage you'd may as well as well do it.

When applied to the arena of personal relationships this doesn't work though, as everyone's opinion is different. I see it as a game - I need to find a physical image that's dull enough to not offend anyone without being so dull as to offend those who are "anti-normal" in their appearance. Big, round, black shoes and a chunky ring that wouldn't look out of place on a goth along with designer shades and a gold vintage fountain pen clipped to my shirt pocket as I head to my 9-5 job. Apparently if I want to wear a goatee I shouldn't have cut my hair short :laughing:

At the end of the day we're not in control of our height or body type and I can see no sense in spending thousands on plastic surgery which may make my face look great to the surgeon or a sexuality confused version of myself (I don't find guys attractive so to see myself as such would be weird) but there's no guarantee whoever I want to attract will appreciate it. I'm just as likely to have transformed myself away from their preference. 

You are beautiful, maybe not to me *I have not seen a pic* but to many people so as long as you're clean, don't smell bad and don't wear holy/dirty clothes when you should be "dressed up" you're doing a pretty good job of looking good, and if you have confidence in that it will show through, allegedly. 

You are what you are whether you like it or not so the best way to look at it is to not think about it and just get on with doing whatever you want to do :happy:


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## FuzzyLittleManPeach (Aug 29, 2011)

Muser said:


> ...at the end of the day, all that really matters is what I think about myself.
> or
> ...at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think about myself.
> 
> ...


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... At the end of the day,

If others are the beholders, then it doesn't matter what I think about myself, because I will be perceived as I am. What _really_ matters here is what I do.

If I am the beholder, then it only slightly matters what I think about myself. I can hardly attach subjective value to any of my physical attributes. All that _really_ matters here is that I can alter my mentality to accept myself as I am.


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## candymountain (Nov 26, 2011)

I believe that it only matters what I think and MAYBE how my partner thinks since that is sort of important for him to find me attractive. But others? As in the world and strangers? I don't care. I take the time to feel pretty and dress nice for myself and myself only. It gives me confidence to be able to survive in the world and function efficiently. I honestly feel that it's more attention grabbing when you look ugly rather than pretty. I don't always dress nice don't get me wrong there are plenty of days with loose jeans and shirts and no make up. But the worse I look, the more I feel like people will stare, so just to make that clear. Yes, my beauty beholder is what matters, it's only about feeling good about yourself!


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## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

This whole physical beauty thing _is_ like a game...and sometimes I feel cheap for wanting to play it. If made to choose, I would prefer to underdress than overdress (_quality_-wise, just to clarify).

I'm with @asmit127 and @FuzzyLittleManPeach
Judging myself as beautiful just does not compute with me. _But_ learning to accept myself as I am or to not care about my (lack of) beauty is certainly more doable and makes more sense.



candymountain said:


> I believe that it only matters what I think and MAYBE how my partner thinks since that is sort of important for him to find me attractive. But others? As in the world and strangers? I don't care. *I take the time to feel pretty and dress nice for myself and myself only. It gives me confidence to be able to survive in the world and function efficiently.* I honestly feel that it's more attention grabbing when you look ugly rather than pretty. I don't always dress nice don't get me wrong there are plenty of days with loose jeans and shirts and no make up. But the worse I look, the more I feel like people will stare, so just to make that clear. Yes, my beauty beholder is what matters, it's only about feeling good about yourself!


Hmm...I have a question. When people take the time to feel pretty and dress nice, can it _really_ be just for yourself? Doesn't it still have something to do with putting out an image to _others_ and being accepted/admired/appealing so you won't feel embarrassed or inadequate in some way?


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## candymountain (Nov 26, 2011)

Muser said:


> This whole physical beauty thing _is_ like a game...and sometimes I feel cheap for wanting to play it. If made to choose, I would prefer to underdress than overdress (_quality_-wise, just to clarify).
> 
> I'm with @asmit127 and @FuzzyLittleManPeach
> Judging myself as beautiful just does not compute with me. _But_ learning to accept myself as I am or to not care about my (lack of) beauty is certainly more doable and makes more sense.
> ...


It's about my personal self-confidence and my body image issues. If everyone and everything revolves around external factors then okay I guess we all care to an extent, I mean that is true in some regard. But what I want to make very clear is this, I don't worry about being in the latest trends and sometimes I find them ugly as crap. So if I want to dress average and someone doesn't like it whatever to me, I do, and if I dress crazy because I want to and people think its ugly or clashes or isn't hip enough, then again whatever, at least I like it. So beauty is in MY eyes, and my boyfriends, but not external factors.


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

Muser said:


> This whole physical beauty thing _is_ like a game...and sometimes I feel cheap for wanting to play it. If made to choose, I would prefer to underdress than overdress (_quality_-wise, just to clarify).
> 
> Hmm...I have a question. When people take the time to feel pretty and dress nice, can it _really_ be just for yourself? Doesn't it still have something to do with putting out an image to _others_ and being accepted/admired/appealing so you won't feel embarrassed or inadequate in some way?


I used to think the whole physical beauty thing (I consider dress to be a critical aspect of how we are seen) was a game, and that I wouldn't play it, but eventually, I realized that was a vanity of sorts as well. 

I now think of things like dressing up and affecting my appearance as an additional layer of communication. I generally want to convey a certain casualness and lack of seriousness, so I generally dress that way. If I need to do something more serious, I do that, and if for some reason I want to be annoying or playful I do that too. I want the beholders to notice these things, and I like my view and their view to be congruous, as that results in the best possible situation.


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## Moon_Child (Jan 2, 2012)

Muser said:


> This whole physical beauty thing _is_ like a game...and sometimes I feel cheap for wanting to play it. If made to choose, I would prefer to underdress than overdress (_quality_-wise, just to clarify).
> 
> I'm with @asmit127 and @FuzzyLittleManPeach
> Judging myself as beautiful just does not compute with me. _But_ learning to accept myself as I am or to not care about my (lack of) beauty is certainly more doable and makes more sense.
> ...


Hey there. 

I dress for myself. I feel a sense of empowerment. I enjoy the character design in Final Fantasy, and Sci-Fi is a huge interest of mine. So, I find clothes inspired by those two things... In my clothes I feel 'sexy'/cool.

I will admit that I've relished in the effect my wardrobe has had on some guys before though. 

I think that my wardrobe came about because it made me feel cool. But, then, with time, I realized that the effect of it on guys was nice. So, I do it for myself and the guy attention is a bonus. 

I have a friend that never wanted a 'makeover' because she felt she'd lose herself, would be complying to social norms, and girly things were not feminist. Just awhile back I saw her again after years of not seeing one another and she looks fantastic. She changed herself up somewhat. Bought new clothes, and looks good. She's a kind of lesbian, by the way. So it wasn't dresses she bought or anything like that... It was nice dress shirts and caring more about her physical health; she started working out and lost a lot of weight. I couldn't resist, I got a lil' crush on her haha. She seemed more confident and it boosted her willingness to do better in school.

I think that when it comes to improving your self-image, don't think about it like: I'm doing it for others. Why? They've never done much for me... You're doing it for yourself, firstly. There's something invigorating about renovating oneself. You change the outside and slowly start to feel it inside...

I use to wear baggy clothes... It wasn't until junior year of high school that I decided to renovate myself. I was tired of feeling lazy in baggy clothes all the time. I wanted to feel like the characters in my comic books (as dorky as this sounds), alive and ready to kick ass. So I tried a pair of skinny jeans and oh gawd... I felt so good. Felt like I was walking around naked. And then I tried on skin-tight shirts... And so good. Dear Jesus. Never going back to baggy clothes.

@Muser Hit me up about this sorta stuff. I really don't mind discussing it. I wouldn't mind sharing my styling/clothing tips... Eh, by tips I mean things I think look nice haha; tis quite subjective. I would love to share my favorite clothes and hair trinkets with you.


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

bellisaurius said:


> I now think of things like dressing up and affecting my appearance as an additional layer of communication. I generally want to convey a certain casualness and lack of seriousness, so I generally dress that way. If I need to do something more serious, I do that, and if for some reason I want to be annoying or playful I do that too. I want the beholders to notice these things, and I like my view and their view to be congruous, as that results in the best possible situation.


How is this possible though? Lets say we both see a girl walking down the street wearing baggy clothes and no make-up. It's perfectly plausible that you think she's a modern feminist rebelling against everything, or that she's depressed, while I being a fellow swimmer assume she's heading to the pool. Similarly with someone wearing lots of make-up you could recognise it as a manga inspired look while I assume she hates herself and is trying to hide. Who is right in either case?

I think your "extension of communication" is the same as my "manipulate it to your advantage" but to me it's a hopeless pipe dream because there are no standards to compare to. If putting "me" out there in a physical way was as simple as wearing a pink and green striped shirt I would, whether I liked the shirt or not. Sadly, as with everything, humanity has come too far and overcomplicated the matter.



Moon_Child said:


> I think that when it comes to improving your self-image, don't think about it like: I'm doing it for others. Why? They've never done much for me... You're doing it for yourself, firstly. There's something invigorating about renovating oneself. You change the outside and slowly start to feel it inside...
> 
> I use to wear baggy clothes... It wasn't until junior year of high school that I decided to renovate myself. I was tired of feeling lazy in baggy clothes all the time. I wanted to feel like the characters in my comic books (as dorky as this sounds), alive and ready to kick ass. So I tried a pair of skinny jeans and oh gawd... I felt so good. Felt like I was walking around naked. And then I tried on skin-tight shirts... And so good. Dear Jesus. Never going back to baggy


Haha! The first part is so... wrong. No offense, it's probably an Fi/Ti clash :happy: It's more "I have a physical presence, what's the point?" than being unwilling to make an effort for others. You have noticed the positive influence your appearance has had on guys, have you also noticed the negative? I'm pretty sure your "dorky" image has scared away many, and that's the issue from my side of the fence. 

How long did the "inner change" take to manifest? Sounds like you put on some jeans and were hooked but I've been playing this game for over a year and have noticed nothing :laughing:


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## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

candymountain said:


> It's about my personal self-confidence and my body image issues. If everyone and everything revolves around external factors then okay I guess we all care to an extent, I mean that is true in some regard. But what I want to make very clear is this, I don't worry about being in the latest trends and sometimes I find them ugly as crap. So if I want to dress average and someone doesn't like it whatever to me, I do, and if I dress crazy because I want to and people think its ugly or clashes or isn't hip enough, then again whatever, at least I like it. So beauty is in MY eyes, and my boyfriends, but not external factors.


I find it interesting how, in your previous post, you wrote "...and MAYBE how my partner thinks". I'd probably say that how beautiful I feel would depend _entirely_ on what my partner thinks. Yes, I'm aware how vulnerable that makes me and how potentially dangerous it could get. That's why I've adopted this nonchalant 'Yeah, well, I can't be bothered with stuff like that' attitude to keep safe. (To play the cognitive functions card, I'll it on my inferior Fe and demonic Fi.)



bellisaurius said:


> I used to think the whole physical beauty thing (I consider dress to be a critical aspect of how we are seen) was a game, and that I wouldn't play it, but eventually, *I realized that was a vanity of sorts as well.*


Would you mind elaborating on that? I'm interested to know what you mean there.



Moon_Child said:


> @Muser Hit me up about this sorta stuff. I really don't mind discussing it. I wouldn't mind sharing my styling/clothing tips... Eh, by tips I mean things I think look nice haha; tis quite subjective. I would love to share my favorite clothes and hair trinkets with you.


Wish I had the guts to reinvent myself like you did. Everyone has grown accustomed to me being this way, so any little change will bring about stronger reactions (albeit positive) from friends/family than it should. "Who cares about that?" I can hear you saying. I'm aware that the only real hurdle here is myself.
Thanks for the offer, but I don't think styling/clothing tips are what I need. :wink:
I need a friend - _someone_ - to *push* me into doing this...to give me the motivation...or an excuse.


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## Sybok (Mar 9, 2012)

the problem is the "thinking about _self"... sadly, we have so many experiences, what others think about ourself or things, often we only re-think already "implanted thoughts".
Its hard work, but I learn, that its more than important, what I think about myself: its essential.


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

asmit127 said:


> How is this possible though? Lets say we both see a girl walking down the street wearing baggy clothes and no make-up. It's perfectly plausible that you think she's a modern feminist rebelling against everything, or that she's depressed, while I being a fellow swimmer assume she's heading to the pool. Similarly with someone wearing lots of make-up you could recognise it as a manga inspired look while I assume she hates herself and is trying to hide. Who is right in either case?
> 
> I think your "extension of communication" is the same as my "manipulate it to your advantage" but to me it's a hopeless pipe dream because there are no standards to compare to. If putting "me" out there in a physical way was as simple as wearing a pink and green striped shirt I would, whether I liked the shirt or not. Sadly, as with everything, humanity has come too far and overcomplicated the matter.


You make some good points, asmit.

In practice, no one would be able to tell whether I or you was dressing to manipulate or communicate, because the difference is internal to us, what out motivations are (as a side note, I often argue that any conversation is both an effort to communicate and manipulate, so there may even be less of a difference). I won't argue that it's complicated if one really applies thought to it, but on a simple level one is talking to an intended audience, and much like being taken out of context in speech, it can fail as you point out since there are multiple beholders.

This of course tends to mean that we should be somewhat modest in speech and dress, of we want to avoid being misconstrued (I sin against this as much as the next guy, but I'm happy to take some lumps for that)


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

Muser said:


> Would you mind elaborating on that? I'm interested to know what you mean there.


From ecclesiastes' "vanity of vanities, all is vanity". Although a better translation is more along the lines of "foggy, ephemeral, or impermanent". 

On the deepest level, everything we deal with is fleeting and transitory, and while it's easy to see how our efforts to create beauty are transitory, if you give it a moment, our efforts to avoid creating it are equally transitory. Trying to chase after things that are insubstantial can lead to frustration if we don't recognize it as such. It's OK to pursue these things, we just have to recognize what we're at.

This is why I think not pursuing beauty and appearance is OK, but that it's short sighted since you miss out on interactions that can bring you comfort in life (or at least avoid those that can bring discomfort).


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## Le9acyMuse (Mar 12, 2010)

I think it matters less than it does matter. We don't know anything but what's been trickling down on our shoulders for generations. Free thought is important, but many, or most, people freely choose to go to places that they won't benefit from. What relevance does "handsome" have for a man, woman or other? Mate selection. So, focusing on appearance will startle envy, shame and despair into thriving. Why do that? If all we know is that we're human, then we should stick to what we _really_ know. Beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt. 

"I have a look."
"I have a vision."
"I have a feeling."

Indeed. And each is one of many. And that is as relevant as it gets. Think too hard about it, and beauty will be in the eye of the beholder. Think about it carefully, and there is beauty. Period.


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## Moon_Child (Jan 2, 2012)

asmit127 said:


> How is this possible though? Lets say we both see a girl walking down the street wearing baggy clothes and no make-up. It's perfectly plausible that you think she's a modern feminist rebelling against everything, or that she's depressed, while I being a fellow swimmer assume she's heading to the pool. Similarly with someone wearing lots of make-up you could recognise it as a manga inspired look while I assume she hates herself and is trying to hide. Who is right in either case?
> 
> I think your "extension of communication" is the same as my "manipulate it to your advantage" but to me it's a hopeless pipe dream because there are no standards to compare to. If putting "me" out there in a physical way was as simple as wearing a pink and green striped shirt I would, whether I liked the shirt or not. Sadly, as with everything, humanity has come too far and overcomplicated the matter.
> 
> ...


Well, why you do things is different to everyone. Beauty, fashion, and all these 'petty' things we as human use for self-expression are all quite subjective on their purpose and effect. I don't think MBTI has anything to do with it... 

And yikes. I hope I don't scare men away. I don't think I do actually. My style is subtle yet you can find the elements of my inspirations. I'm not too dorky haha. I would show you what I mean.

@Muser I couldn't get my friend to change, honestly. She did that herself. I think it was going out and experiencing the world... Before, she lived in Moo-Moo Town with me. Then, she went out to the big city and took up film as a major. I don't know, but it set something in her. I feel that your environment and experiences have a lot to do with how you express yourself externally... She's an INTP, if that helps.

'The change,' for me, took more than just a day haha. I was exaggerating. It took... 3 years in total. I experimented with all types of styles in high school... Nope, still looked like a lil' boy... Tried this, ah, too girly, and that and that. 

Anyways, I wouldn't mind trying to motivate you. We should talk if you want.


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

Muser said:


> Wish I had the guts to reinvent myself like you did. Everyone has grown accustomed to me being this way, so any little change will bring about stronger reactions (albeit positive) from friends/family than it should.


I don't know how different it is for a girl given that you can make many more changes, and more drastic ones at that, but the reaction to my changes have been negligable. I cut six inches off my hair and started using gel one day and just one colleague commented on it out of the 40+ I see on a daily basis, and my mum expressed relief. Not a word from my friends... Wearing other than the "uniform" black trousers at work (I've got some beige ones and some grey stripy ones which are practically jeans, with orange contrast stitching) has illicited not a single comment. I think we take this stuff too seriously, most people (in my life at least) are too self involved to notice. Everyone has to buy new clothes once in a while anyway so instead of replacing like for like change it up a bit. In time you'll have reinvented yourself :happy:



bellisaurius said:


> I won't argue that it's complicated if one really applies thought to it, but on a simple level one is talking to an intended audience, and much like being taken out of context in speech, it can fail as you point out since there are multiple beholders.


Exactly. The first girl was actually sick and on the way to the doctor so didn't bother that day and the second was an aspiring actress going to a dressed rehearsal - we were both way off in both cases :wink: Overanalysing things is what I do best, unfortunately.

Where is this intended audience though? You've got past the single stage of your life while I (and the OP) have not. This means that my potential "audience" consists of every female I happen to see around 20-30 years old. That's a big audience of varying levels of maturity and vastly different life experinces. Yet my appearance has to be "one size fits all" attractive, while still reflecting me - it's a big ask.



Moon_Child said:


> yikes. I hope I don't scare men away. I don't think I do actually. My style is subtle yet you can find the elements of my inspirations. I'm not too dorky haha. I would show you what I mean.


Would a guy who is covered in tattoos and piercings with huge stretched earlobes think you look too conformist? If so you've scared him off. It's inevitable (in my mind, which may or may not reflect any aspect of reality) and probably a good thing if you feel how you look reflects you and the guys who react positively are the type of guy you want to attract. Sounds like you're playing the game whether you want to or not, and you're winning - well done!



Moon_Child said:


> 'The change,' for me, took more than just a day haha. I was exaggerating. It took... 3 years in total. I experimented with all types of styles in high school... Nope, still looked like a lil' boy... Tried this, ah, too girly, and that and that.
> 
> Anyways, I wouldn't mind trying to motivate you. We should talk if you want.


Fashion advice from someone who knows nothing about me - strangely that might be exactly what I need. Assuming you fit my "20-30ish female who likes guys" target audience. You're willing to admit to 2/3 so that's a great start :laughing: Not sure I can commit to another two years though, that's practically a life sentence... *questions if this offer was even aimed at me :ninja:*


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## Moon_Child (Jan 2, 2012)

asmit127 said:


> I don't know how different it is for a girl given that you can make many more changes, and more drastic ones at that, but the reaction to my changes have been negligable. I cut six inches off my hair and started using gel one day and just one colleague commented on it out of the 40+ I see on a daily basis, and my mum expressed relief. Not a word from my friends... Wearing other than the "uniform" black trousers at work (I've got some beige ones and some grey stripy ones which are practically jeans, with orange contrast stitching) has illicited not a single comment. I think we take this stuff too seriously, most people (in my life at least) are too self involved to notice. Everyone has to buy new clothes once in a while anyway so instead of replacing like for like change it up a bit. In time you'll have reinvented yourself :happy:
> 
> 
> Exactly. The first girl was actually sick and on the way to the doctor so didn't bother that day and the second was an aspiring actress going to a dressed rehearsal - we were both way off in both cases :wink: Overanalysing things is what I do best, unfortunately.
> ...


Haha you'd be surprised, looks really don't tell everything about a person. I've attracted tattooed men with stretched earlobes  They were the sweetest people, ever. Just yesterday I went to a tattoo parlor and people there took a liking to me. Even though I don't have tattoos and looked all cutsie-like with my polka-dotted shirt with ruffles haha. You're building absolutes where there are none.

Haha I'm always willing to make new friends. I wouldn't mind. I direct my post at you and Muser thus.


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

Moon_Child said:


> Haha you'd be surprised, looks really don't tell everything about a person. I've attracted tattooed men with stretched earlobes  They were the sweetest people, ever. Just yesterday I went to a tattoo parlor and people there took a liking to me. Even though I don't have tattoos and looked all cutsie-like with my polka-dotted shirt with ruffles haha. You're building absolutes where there are none.
> 
> Haha I'm always willing to make new friends. I wouldn't mind. I direct my post at you and Muser thus.


Seems you're trying to get inside my head again, and failing :laughing: I just wish I were better at getting stuff out in a way people can interpret as intended.

I did not mean to generalise, I was just saying that at least one example of such a guy will have been repulsed, not all of them, and I still think it has happened.

I also have no misconceptions regarding the "niceness" of those who choose to appear extreme in the aforementioned way. I may question their sanity (self mutilation and the strange habbit of wearing a long leather coat in the middle of Summer) and I'll question why they're such narcisists (how much time, pain and money have they gone through to look like that?) but I can't help assuming that if you need to put that much effort in to looking "scary" underneath it all is probably a fluffy bunny. Everyone who comments about such people online seem to support this...

As to "looks really don't tell everything about a person" I couldn't agree more. I've said all along without knowing _why_ they actually say very little. The only thing that may be telling is how much effort is involved in achieving the look but even then you have to question whether today is a special occasion/bad day or this is their everyday look? Thus they are meaningless yet are used by everyone all the time to judge people :dry:


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## Moon_Child (Jan 2, 2012)

asmit127 said:


> Seems you're trying to get inside my head again, and failing :laughing: I just wish I were better at getting stuff out in a way people can interpret as intended.
> 
> I did not mean to generalise, I was just saying that at least one example of such a guy will have been repulsed, not all of them, and I still think it has happened.
> 
> ...


I didn't know I was trying not to fail. 

As for getting inside of your mind––If I wanted to get inside of your mind, that is–– I would have tried a wee bit harder than a simple thread  (;


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## bowieownsmysoul (Feb 26, 2012)

Muser said:


> ...at the end of the day, all that really matters is what I think about myself.
> or
> ...at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think about myself.
> 
> ...


 
At first, I agreed with the first statement more. But the more I thought about it, they could be equally true. I think it only doesn't matter what you think about yourself if you don't think about yourself.


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