# Ni Confirmation or Rejection Wanted



## Lord Fudgingsley

Just remembered, @angelcat has done a lot to try and debunk SJ-stereotypes, and I've seen more than enough hints of typism on the thread. I'd certainly like to hear a perspective from you.


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## Pressed Flowers

Lord Fudgingsley said:


> Just remembered, @angelcat has done a lot to try and debunk SJ-stereotypes, and I've seen more than enough hints of typism on the thread. I'd certainly like to hear a perspective from you.


Angelcat actually typed me as ENFJ in the first place (which was really wonderful, as it made me realize all the Fe traits I do have). I would be interested to see if she has any new opinions on me now, though, since I have new information and I've opened up a bit since my first typing form.

Edit: although I must say that when I read @angelcat 's Tumblr post today on ENFJ vs. ESFJ, I was so surprised by how accurately she captured how I would have responded to that situation (as someone who is typed as an ENFJ). I have similar conversations with my ISFJ room mate all the time. I think a lot about global affairs and "big picture" politics when she just wants to take care of people immediately. I mean, I could not be an ENFJ, but I found it funny how I really _am_ like the hypothetical ENFJ in that post (especially given how you noted that some people might find the characterization extreme, lol. It seemed extremely accurate and realistic to me).

Edit: I also want to apologize for any typism on this thread. I'm trying to avoid that here - and that's part of why I'm questioning it to begin with, because I don't want to be typed as Ni-aux just because of the insane discrimination against SJ types - but I can admit I'm doing a poor job of it and not calling it out. Partially because I'm not sure what is typism and what is... Jung. It's no excuse, but I apologize, and I am more than welcome to some fresh non-typist information about Si. That is what I want from this thread, and what I wanted from my Cognitive Functions forum thread about Si. I'm just sorry I wasn't clearer about that to begin with


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## Pressed Flowers

penny lane said:


> That's very interesting.I cannot imagine not having internal feelings. I have to thank you alittlebear for that very basic way of describing your Fe it was an interesting contrast.
> 
> I also agree with hoopla about the functions. I had ruled out ENFP for so long for myself but it seems to fit me better than some of the others.I'm still looking into it but it feels closer to I think I use Fi for example.
> 
> One way I look at the introverted functions is that it's like your hand print even if there it is similar with others it still has your imprint so don't worry if it doesn't sound like anyone else's Ni or Ti (Si or Fi for that matter)


Thank you for your input  I appreciate you dropping by. I find it really interesting actually that you relate to Fi from m post, because to me I can't imagine that? But it's validating my Fe in a way, so I'm fine with that. May I ask what you're typed as, if you don't mind?

Also yeah, that's a good point about introverted functions. I'm trying to look a bit at extroverted functions now, to help me type. 

Thank you again for dropping by!


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## Pressed Flowers

WhatIsLoveMachine said:


> Let's try to figure out what personality type you would be if you didn't have anxiety anxiety, ptsd, or anything.
> 
> So we have your real personality type ABCD and then a personality type induced by the ailments described above WXYZ.
> 
> Try to identify those letters for what your ailments are inducing you to be and what personality you would be without those ailments.
> 
> An idea out of the blue idea that I just had is that the factors above are making you really emotionally anxious about external affairs (Fe). Probably wrong reading over this again.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, how where you like before all this stress and things happened?


Well, that's kind of the problem. I don't know. That's sort of why it's hard to type me. Sorry to say it like that, but... like, it's really not that easy, I don't consider these things apart of me and like to see myself without them (and that's actually why I started getting involved with this forum again, because is wanted something to see myself other than a traumatized victim.... as pathetic and sad as that is, haha), but the fact is they do influence how I react in a way that I cannot fathom. 

I like to think that, without fine motor problems, I would be a makeup expert and have great outward style. If I wasn't socially anxious growing up, if I wasn't physically disabled in a way that alienated me from my peers growing up, I like to think I would have had the typical Fe childhood where I would have made friends with ease. If I wasn't socially anxious, if I wasn't traumatized, if I wasn't just anxious in general, I like to think I would be out there in clubs, out there in the social life with a ton of friends. If I didn't have a lisp and social anxiety, I like to think I would be a socially competent person who people respect. 

And that is, in many ways, all I want. Of course I want to reach my dreams - I want to help people, and in the long run leave a good mark on humanity - but in the moment all I desire is to be socially competent. 

But I can't say that's how I would be without anxiety and trauma. I don't know what I would be like, lol. I've had GAD symptoms since i started school and honestly can't remember much before that except apparently I was friendly and perceptive about social things, that I was a happy kid and baby. But I can't say how I would be if I didn't have these impairments. I can tell you how I would dream of being, how I just want to be a socially competent, respectable person who is equipped to reach her dreams once I recover from these anxiety disorders, but I don't really know if that counts for much. Maybe it does. I don't know. 

I appreciate your attempt at help, but it's not that easy.


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## Pressed Flowers

Axe said:


> ni confirm


This is all I needed. Thank you. The thread will be closed now. I am indeed an ENFJ. 

*I'm only joking, just to clarify, but I appreciate your response anyway. It made me giggle. Hopefully you were trying to be funny, haha, and I'm not just being a jerk. Regardless, thank you for your input.


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## Darkbloom

@Queen of Mars Yeah,Fi dom no way,but what I meant to say is that I doubt there's Si and Ne too(for INFP),so ESFJ too is definitely out of question for me.
Fi dom doesn't make sense in so many ways

I'd go with ENFJ too 

Btw how can't you mention me??
I'll try @Living dead


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## Pressed Flowers

@Living dead

(we'll see if the notification works) 

Can I ask why you're so sure of my Ni/Se usage? And also can someone sort of explain where they see all my Fe? I mean I feel the Fe in myself, but if I had like an explanation of why I'm Fe and not Fi I feel that would keep me from doubting my Fe-dominance all the time. Like I think I truly am Fe-dom, but then I doubt it so easily sometimes :/ 

(Of course don't feel obliged to explain it to me, I appreciate your thoughts without or without a deep explanation of why you think it.)

Edit: okay it worked! =D


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## Darkbloom

I'm gonna try to explain it later,10:30 am is too early for my Ti to work properly


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## pivot_turn

alittlebear said:


> And also can someone sort of explain where they see all my Fe? I mean I feel the Fe in myself, but if I had like an explanation of why I'm Fe and not Fi I feel that would keep me from doubting my Fe-dominance all the time. Like I think I truly am Fe-dom, but then I doubt it so easily sometimes :/


I'll try to explain how I see your Fe. Though it's sort of difficult to separate things that are more towards the steretype side of functions and things that relate to the basic definitions of them. So extroverted feeling in relation to introverted feeling... Partly I meant to at least say something in my previous reply here, but I ended up focusing more on Ti. That's one thing anyway, Fe and Ti or Fi and Te. I think in where you described your inner world, it sounded much more like Ti than Fi in that you try to find your inner logic of things and not your own feelings and values inside. So the introverted judging function would be Ti. Also when you describe feelings related stuff it seems like it's directed outward much more and to other people. I'm not completely sure about this, but you seem to find connections between people and your values relate to bigger wholes on the outside more than finding your values on the inside and maybe possibly bringing them out sometime... or not. Also a lot of the things that seem enneagram 2 in you also seem like Fe. I feel like I'm better at finding the difference between the introverted functions here than the different F's or saying anything about why or why not Te.  And one more thing that seems Fe is how you say you sort of adapt to social situations; you want to do things that are socially acceptable.

I've also got a feeling of straight on in the moment extroverted sensing more than going to previous experiences for relating things like Si. But it also seems like a straight jump from percieving things to assumptions of them, like making connections to other things and meanings, so N. But I'm not as sure about this N and S thing. It's more like not really seeing Si and you have explained a couple times how you can sort of ignore the outer world and focus more on ideas than sensations (exept for what you have to naturally because of feeling your body and probably the tourettes), if I'm not mixing this up with someone else, but that makes me think stronger N than S in general regardless of which direction the functions have.

I don't know if I helped that much. I feel like I'm being clear in neither my thoughts nor how I'm expressing them here.  Anyway it's interesting to talk about your type as I can in some ways see similarities in us (like I think we both have quite strong F) but also quite big differences. Plus you're always nice and thoughtful, so it's nice too to read your posts.


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## Darkbloom

@alittlebear,my reasoning for Fe/Ti is basically what @pivot_turn said.Of course,it's somewhat stereotypical but I don't think it's possible to make it completely non stereotypical,I think that part of the function gets lost the moment you try to define it,that's why I find it extremely hard to really say "You seem to be using Fe here because..."
Whenever you talk about logic or try to explain something it just feels like you are trying to make sense of things a Ti way so I guess it's just safe to assume those large amounts of F are Fe


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## Pressed Flowers

@pivot_turn and @Living dead 

Thank you both for your answers. They helped me understand a big more why people always (for the most part) seem to say Fe. 

Pivot - thank you so much for your kind words. You also seem like a very nice and thoughtful person, and I would very much like to see your typing progress as well  Maybe I can even help, if I ever get the functions / typing other people down. 

I also agree with mostly all of what you said about Fe and Ti for me. I do have an internal structure to my world as opposed to a moral one or something, and my values definitely relate more universally, and I do look for connections between people (and see connections between people so naturally I don't even have to look for them, really -- it's like, oh, they're best friends, I wonder how long they've known each other because they seem friendly, they're a group of best friends, things like that. 

Also, think you for your thoughts on Se and Si. That sounds about right for me too. Like even with Tourette's and my hypersensitive sensation issues I still really focus on my inner world (as in my thoughts) rather than... I don't know, whatever not being focused on my thoughts and perceptions is? I'm afraid to make an Si stereotype statement again... Maybe I do experience it and I'm just not getting correct information about it, I don't know. Hopefully it can be sorted out. :/

And no, please don't worry about making sense. It made a lot of sense, and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. 

Living dead - that makes enough sense as well. Thank you for your explanation


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## AdInfinitum

My general impression is that Ni overflows in you, it slightly inflicts jealousy. (Joking, I have my own demons to battle with Ne not wanting to let go of me and me holding onto it just as deeply) But to give you a better grasp of Si, my mother is an ESFJ and one of the best examples where I realized my perspectives were so much different was a particular situation where I was studying this image of a corpse taken from Aokigahara forest in Japan( known as the "Suicide Forest") and while my mother made her way around my laptop, she immediately told me to stop with my weirdness. 

When I asked her why is she so scared of it, she told me one thing that made me wonder, she mentioned to me she did not know how to feel about it as she had never dealt with such an overflowing image, the whole idea is that she spent the entire day thinking about what that photo made her feel in terms of sensation and when I asked her about it again she told me it made her feel "uneasy, like when I have a fever", that is when the gates opened, she tried stacking the impression into her Si impressions library all day long and her final conclusion was trying to normalize the idea through fever connections in order not to alarm herself. What truly amazed me was that she insisted all day long about it.

Otherwise she is amazing when dealing with vibes, I can not hide one single crack in my soul from her and she will ask for how long she needs to in order to get an answer from me just because she puts so much energy in dealing with me but I get the feeling that is her general Fe dom when working with Si and without her vigilance I would have lost a gazillion more objects than I did during school to the point of losing my own head which is not an uncommon occurrence. 

Overall you get the idea, the general tendency is building an impression piece by piece in order to understand the outside through a rich inner world of *sensations* and explanations. And I do not blame her for slightly losing herself in that situation, it is not a comfortable subject while I am absorbed into my theories and curiosity to the point where I actually do not see it as repulsive, for her it is a bit harder to overcome it until she has accepted it as "good" or "bad" or "known". I hope it helps a bit.


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## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I just feel like other Fe users don't feel this strongly about understanding the world? Like they care about humanity, but like my ISFJ friend is just concerned with improving education, *she isn't much concerned with the fundamental nature of human beings or the unspoken laws that govern society (in social terms). That's more my speciality, and what consumes me, what drives me to academia and what inspires me to learn more, to understand more*.


Fe/Ni. As I have said before, several times. Thinking globally and in far reaching terms is not something ESFJs do.

Also, the sensor stereotyping on this thread? SIGH.


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## penny lane

alittlebear said:


> Thank you for your input  I appreciate you dropping by. I find it really interesting actually that you relate to Fi from m post, because to me I can't imagine that? But it's validating my Fe in a way, so I'm fine with that. May I ask what you're typed as, if you don't mind?
> 
> Also yeah, that's a good point about introverted functions. I'm trying to look a bit at extroverted functions now, to help me type.
> 
> Thank you again for dropping by!


 A while back I was typed as INFP but some if it felt off so I' looking deeper into the functions. My Si could be inferior and my Fi sounds closer to aux than dom.

Yes it was good compare and contrast for me between Fe and Fi. My emotions are strong so I have looked into how Fe works to see if any of it fit.The thing I don't talk about my feelings easily. I would like too but my communication is more about connections I see that make perfect sense to me but not everyone sees it.

I would have to be a very marginal extrovert but function wise it might be a better fit.

I think you are pretty far along in understanding how your Fe works it helped me your good at expressing it.


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## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> My general impression is that Ni overflows in you, it slightly inflicts jealousy. (Joking, I have my own demons to battle with Ne not wanting to let go of me and me holding onto it just as deeply) But to give you a better grasp of Si, my mother is an ESFJ and one of the best examples where I realized my perspectives were so much different was a particular situation where I was studying this image of a corpse taken from Aokigahara forest in Japan( known as the "Suicide Forest") and while my mother made her way around my laptop, she immediately told me to stop with my weirdness.
> 
> When I asked her why is she so scared of it, she told me one thing that made me wonder, she mentioned to me she did not know how to feel about it as she had never dealt with such an overflowing image, the whole idea is that she spent the entire day thinking about what that photo made her feel in terms of sensation and when I asked her about it again she told me it made her feel "uneasy, like when I have a fever", that is when the gates opened, she tried stacking the impression into her Si impressions library all day long and her final conclusion was trying to normalize the idea through fever connections in order not to alarm herself. What truly amazed me was that she insisted all day long about it.
> 
> Otherwise she is amazing when dealing with vibes, I can not hide one single crack in my soul from her and she will ask for how long she needs to in order to get an answer from me just because she puts so much energy in dealing with me but I get the feeling that is her general Fe dom when working with Si and without her vigilance I would have lost a gazillion more objects than I did during school to the point of losing my own head which is not an uncommon occurrence.
> 
> Overall you get the idea, the general tendency is building an impression piece by piece in order to understand the outside through a rich inner world of *sensations* and explanations. And I do not blame her for slightly losing herself in that situation, it is not a comfortable subject while I am absorbed into my theories and curiosity to the point where I actually do not see it as repulsive, for her it is a bit harder to overcome it until she has accepted it as "good" or "bad" or "known". I hope it helps a bit.


Thank you for your reply, and I apologize (to the three of you, but especially to you, since I've left your reply sitting for two days now) for not getting back sooner. I've been a bit tired and stressed these past few days, and decided to leave this topic alone for a little bit. 

Thank you also for sharing about your mother. I can relate a little with my mom. It's hard for me to understand her because we are very different, but I'm fairly certain she also has tertiary/inferior Ne and she does the same thing where she shirks away from anything unfamiliar to her. What is known, she _knows_... but if it's weird or something she doesn't have personal encounters with, she is very cautious. 

It's interesting you mention the Suicide Forest... I started a short documentary about it a few months back, and it also greatly unsettled me. I couldn't even finish the full thirty minute program. I can't recall how I physically reacted - or how a "fever" would feel like, for that matter - but it just... It just made me so sad. It raised my awareness that terrible sadness affects people in Japan too (which in many ways is idealized in America), and... Just in general, it was heartbreaking. Thinking of all the people who have passed there, all the people who couldn't be helped, all the people who continue to go there, the seemingly endless cycle of tragedy that so few will mourn. It was terrible. Terrible. 

I think I more had to stop watching because the sadness was so riveting... I could accept it that people went to the forest, and... yeah, but knowing the details of how it happened made it too real for me, and I just had to stop. 

I'm a little shaken up just thinking about it again. 

I'm also pretty bad at vibes? I don't know, I can get lost in my own world of ideas and end up ignoring someone when they're upset. Usually I don't - I catch them before we get to that point - but sometimes yes, because I'm just so consumed in my thoughts I forget to accommodate/interrogate them. And for me it's not so much that it's unknown... as it is that it existed and I didn't know about it, and now I have to change the way I see and understand the world to include the fact that... this sadness, this pit of sadness exists in the world. Maybe that's what your mother felt too, but... I don't know. 

Regardless, thank you again for your insights and personal experience. (Also Ne is lovely, especially in INFPs, so I wouldn't be feeling too jealous of my weird Ni thing anyway [granted that I even do have it].)


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## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Fe/Ni. As I have said before, several times. Thinking globally and in far reaching terms is not something ESFJs do.
> 
> Also, the sensor stereotyping on this thread? SIGH.


Thank you for clarifying again. I apologize for needing it constantly reiterated, and for the S stereotypes. I'll try to make sure to (kindly) shut those down if they crop up again.


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## Pressed Flowers

@CupcakesRDaBestBruv , I would be very interested in your opinion of my type once you get the chance. You're one of the more consistent people who says I have an Fi vibe, and I'm curious if you'll keep that thought after looking into my questionnaire and such. (Don't feel rushed though please, or obliged to say Fe because everyone else agrees on that. I'm really curious in your honest opinion.)


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## Pressed Flowers

penny lane said:


> A while back I was typed as INFP but some if it felt off so I' looking deeper into the functions. My Si could be inferior and my Fi sounds closer to aux than dom.
> 
> Yes it was good compare and contrast for me between Fe and Fi. My emotions are strong so I have looked into how Fe works to see if any of it fit.The thing I don't talk about my feelings easily. I would like too but my communication is more about connections I see that make perfect sense to me but not everyone sees it.
> 
> I would have to be a very marginal extrovert but function wise it might be a better fit.
> 
> I think you are pretty far along in understanding how your Fe works it helped me your good at expressing it.


I'm glad it could help you  You probably have seen this already, but just in case... This is the video Emberfly keeps dropping around for Fi/Fe confusion, and for me I really identified with Fe here. If you identify more with Fi, it probably is much more likely that you are an Fi user. 



 I've posted this video here before already, so chances are you've seen it, but is really suggest watching it if you haven't already, or even watching it again if you already have. 

Also, as far as the marginal extrovert thing... I'm a "marginal extrovert" as well, so I understand that fairly well. I think that functions are most important though. If you have dominant Ne, that makes you an MBTI "extrovert". (Besides, you know what they say about Ne-doms being the "most introverted extroverts".)

Also, thank you again for dropping by my thread.


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## penny lane

alittlebear said:


> I'm glad it could help you  You probably have seen this already, but just in case... This is the video Emberfly keeps dropping around for Fi/Fe confusion, and for me I really identified with Fe here. If you identify more with Fi, it probably is much more likely that you are an Fi user.
> 
> 
> 
> I've posted this video here before already, so chances are you've seen it, but is really suggest watching it if you haven't already, or even watching it again if you already have.
> 
> Also, as far as the marginal extrovert thing... I'm a "marginal extrovert" as well, so I understand that fairly well. I think that functions are most important though. If you have dominant Ne, that makes you an MBTI "extrovert". (Besides, you know what they say about Ne-doms being the "most introverted extroverts".)
> 
> Also, thank you again for dropping by my thread.


I have seen it but I did watch it again. While I feel like I am likely Fi there are parts of both I feel like I can relate to making it confusing. Both have some awful sterotypes most of us wouldn't want to think we are capable of. Fe-wishy-washy,manipulative,follows the crowd even if it's wrong and cares too much what others think. Then there is Fi-selfish,inflexible,cold,doesn't cares about what others think I mean that could be carried too far too.Think what might happen when someone cares nothing of what others think?

I do care about others and don't feel like compromise is not a bad word but I decide things by my own sorting it out myself on how I feel about something or someone. That's what makes me feel I'm Fi and I have judged things that way since I was a kid.

The ESFJ vs ENFJ when I read it I could actually relate to both maybe that's high Ne? I would want to help right away but I also thing of how it plays out down the line?What comes next? 

I always did find it interesting that Ne doms are the most introverted of extroverts.Maybe it's because there is a lot going on in an Ne's mind and they are not interesting in being in charge (Te) or relating to everyone (Fe) and not so out there and active(Se) . 

Si (if I'm right about how it works)I for me is both the best and worst memories. I can relate to have a love /hate with traditions My Si is sentimental over practical although I have some of that too.As an example of both I have given away clothes that I wore because it's a reminder of something I would prefer not to remember. I don't mean just a funeral but something I wore during a painful experience(not that it happens that often but it's happened a few times. ) On the better side my favorite event or holiday is Halloween because I only have good memories of of that.Some details I'm good at but it's not like Si dom or aux would be-not like my mother. 



Your thread also interested me as I'm trying to understand Ni better. I'm still in the process of understand the functions but some are easier to understand than others.


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## AdInfinitum

No problem, you answer when your soul tells you to. Any other time is either obligation or hard feelings and self discovery should not be about those aspects.

It is easy to get biased in terms of Si as all stereotypes include comfort and lack of vision towards the new but it is not the case when dealing with the general idea. Types are branching through people and not reversed, this idea further more turns in terms of a slight "scale" when dealing with them. That means that you indeed will find more comfortable SJs but you can also find more comfortable NPs, NJs, SPs, etc., the secret lays in their thought process. If I want *applicable* ideas to solve my issues, I can always turn to an SJ as my solutions are always fairy-like and silly, most of the times I appear as a fool which does not bother me yet my problems still turn unsolved and there is where I need realism. 

SJs still do not see the world as it is but not as a cataclysm of possibilities, everything is imbued with their impressions as a general way of meeting the world. Imagine them handshaking the world through this sliding sheet which will later be used a means of identifying the objective idea, they know what relaxes them, what stresses them and what they should avoid. Living with two of them for 18 years of my life gave me a slight understanding of their thought process, they will still get annoyed whenever I make the same mistake more than twice as a means of "never learning to adapt", nevertheless they remain amazing.


And to give you another grasp, I am sharing my dorm room with two other girls, an ISFP and an ISFJ, and while I am spending my weekends here, the ISFJ prefers to stay in bed, read her cheesy classic love books (which she rereads all the time), only goes out with her boyfriend if she does at all but the thing is, her routine is indisputably fixed so deeply into herself, it is slightly scary and that is an *unhealthy example*, it does not render anything conclusive in a general aspect. Therefore biased opinions can appear at any time if you are not aware of a deep analysis of healthy and unhealthy types, Si in dom/aux positions is wonderful if known how to be balanced guess, I always imagine it would be awesome when writing a book as you would be able to play with impressions so that you hide the main mystery through different chambers. 

And about the Suicide Forest, I will use one Ni-esque piece of advice: change the perspective and you will obtain something completely new. I basically realized how much the human mind and spirit runs into everything (if it can be considered human anymore after considering it as a sole identity and everything following it just a consequence of its growth) , ideals run everywhere, sadness is an idea, is sadness the fungus resulting? Is it still a form of life? What does it represent? And that resulted in an idea for my new prose. Inspiration is everywhere as well. That still did not stop me from falling asleep in the park thinking about it all yesterday as a result of 7 hours of continuous mental rambling. So it all comes with a relapsing price.


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## 68097

NobleRaven said:


> But to give you a better grasp of Si, my mother is an ESFJ and one of the best examples where I realized my perspectives were so much different was a particular situation where I was studying this image of a corpse taken from Aokigahara forest in Japan( known as the "Suicide Forest") and while my mother made her way around my laptop, she immediately told me to stop with my weirdness.
> 
> When I asked her why is she so scared of it...


I've noticed this sort of ... detached fascination with morbid things in my NFP friends. One of them has this unyielding obsession with the Holocaust. It's her life most of the time, yet it doesn't depress her the way focusing so intently on it all the time would upset and depress me. I think it's the Fi/Fe divide ... you Fi users can look at sad things and find the resonance in them, but you don't "invest in the object" the way Fe does. You're interested by it, but separate from it, whereas when I look at something awful, I can't help imagining how that person or animal felt in that moment ... their despair, their sadness, their sorrow. It overwhelms me and drowns me in misery. 

In reality, I can't deal with this kind of thing. It's too ... emotionally devastating. In fiction, though, I am unafraid of it. I can look at a shredded corpse in Hannibal without batting an eyelash, but something real, and awful, like the Holocaust? Can't do it. I think my sensor qualities allows me to separate reality from fantasy, so I am comfortable with awful things in fantasy but not in reality. (Where the two overlap, though, I've noticed I have a hard time pulling back from my revulsion and not projecting it into reality -- like with violent crime dramas. I get so disgusted with awful men that I have a difficult time, when watching too many of them, not to be distrustful and suspicious of all strangers.)


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## AdInfinitum

angelcat said:


> I've noticed this sort of ... detached fascination with morbid things in my NFP friends. One of them has this unyielding obsession with the Holocaust. It's her life most of the time, yet it doesn't depress her the way focusing so intently on it all the time would upset and depress me. I think it's the Fi/Fe divide ... you Fi users can look at sad things and find the resonance in them, but you don't "invest in the object" the way Fe does. You're interested by it, but separate from it, whereas when I look at something awful, I can't help imagining how that person or animal felt in that moment ... their despair, their sadness, their sorrow. It overwhelms me and drowns me in misery.
> 
> In reality, I can't deal with this kind of thing. It's too ... emotionally devastating. In fiction, though, I am unafraid of it. I can look at a shredded corpse in Hannibal without batting an eyelash, but something real, and awful, like the Holocaust? Can't do it. I think my sensor qualities allows me to separate reality from fantasy, so I am comfortable with awful things in fantasy but not in reality. (Where the two overlap, though, I've noticed I have a hard time pulling back from my revulsion and not projecting it into reality -- like with violent crime dramas. I get so disgusted with awful men that I have a difficult time, when watching too many of them, not to be distrustful and suspicious of all strangers.)


I had also taken this into consideration, I am deeply fascinated by these darker aspects of the human condition, I can go through all the morbid details and overwhelming feelings and still come out feeding my Fi with new aspects of moral values overall. I don't emotionally invest as deeply as Fe users and that is one thing I admire them for, they feel basically anything related to humanity as a whole. I can do that too yet somehow I am still coming into the mouldy part and extracting huge interests regarding humanitarian issues. Also combined with my fascination for Søren Kierkegaard, I know the brightest love for truth in personal tendencies comes from darker aspects of humanity.


Do not get me wrong, I still do not come close to the majority of people, mostly due to my anxiety and I know my soul is too tainted to allow myself among them, I am extremely dreamy yet I follow so many of these programs I am still able to see tendencies in people, I do not leave yet I know what happens underneath the iris. Yet, I can find the good side in psychopaths because of their struggle with themselves, also in serial killers, crude leaders, morbid aspects whatsoever but at the end of the day, I realize the road to absolution is overcoming your own self. Mom still changes the channel whenever something similar comes along, I continue watching and draw my own conclusion, independent of the documentary itself. 

Many times I have told myself, almost whispering to myself that I should feel more but I do not after I have translated it, I continue studying nonetheless and making my own suppositions, writing, etc.


----------



## 68097

NobleRaven said:


> I had also took this into consideration, I am deeply fascinated by these darker aspects of the human condition, I can go through all the morbid details and overwhelming feelings and still come out feeding my Fi with new aspects of moral values overall. I don't emotionally invest as deeply as Fe users and that is one thing I admire them for, they feel basically anything related to humanity as a whole. I can do that too yet somehow I am still coming into the mouldy part and extracting huge interests regarding humanitarian issues. Also combined with my fascination for Søren Kierkegaard, I know the brightest love for truth in personal tendencies comes from darker aspects of humanity.
> 
> 
> Do not get me wrong, I still do not come close to the majority of people, mostly due to my anxiety and I know my soul is too tainted to allow myself among them, I am extremely dreamy yet I follow so many of these programs I am still able to see tendencies in people, I do not leave yet I know what happens underneath the iris. Yet, I can find the good side in psychopaths because of their struggle with themselves, also in serial killers, crude leaders, morbid aspects whatsoever but at the end of the day, I realize the road to absolution is overcoming your own self. Mom still changes the channel whenever something similar comes along, I continue watching and draw my own conclusion, independent of the documentary itself.
> 
> Many times I have told myself, almost whispering to myself that I should feel more but I do not after I have translated it, I continue studying nonetheless and making my own suppositions, writing, etc.


Let me just say ... it is a delight to observe a real INFP amid all the online pretenders. You have such a beautiful expression of Fi/Ne in what you say that it makes me smile. 

I'm somewhat envious of Fi's ability to be entirely separate from the object; to remain detached... interested, and perhaps even moved if so inclined, but not to get so lost in something that you abandon self in favor of the emotion of the object. My NFP friend can go up and thank WWII veterans for their service with such quiet gratitude and sincerity, and I would not be able to get the words out without choking up! She simply sees them, and thanks them, and I can't not think of the horrors they must have seen. It's really quite annoying at times. Heh.


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## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> I had also took this into consideration, I am deeply fascinated by these darker aspects of the human condition, I can go through all the morbid details and overwhelming feelings and still come out feeding my Fi with new aspects of moral values overall. I don't emotionally invest as deeply as Fe users and that is one thing I admire them for, they feel basically anything related to humanity as a whole. I can do that too yet somehow I am still coming into the mouldy part and extracting huge interests regarding humanitarian issues. Also combined with my fascination for Søren Kierkegaard, I know the brightest love for truth in personal tendencies comes from darker aspects of humanity.
> 
> 
> Do not get me wrong, I still do not come close to the majority of people, mostly due to my anxiety and I know my soul is too tainted to allow myself among them, I am extremely dreamy yet I follow so many of these programs I am still able to see tendencies in people, I do not leave yet I know what happens underneath the iris. Yet, I can find the good side in psychopaths because of their struggle with themselves, also in serial killers, crude leaders, morbid aspects whatsoever but at the end of the day, I realize the road to absolution is overcoming your own self. Mom still changes the channel whenever something similar comes along, I continue watching and draw my own conclusion, independent of the documentary itself.
> 
> Many times I have told myself, almost whispering to myself that I should feel more but I do not after I have translated it, I continue studying nonetheless and making my own suppositions, writing, etc.





angelcat said:


> I've noticed this sort of ... detached fascination with morbid things in my NFP friends. One of them has this unyielding obsession with the Holocaust. It's her life most of the time, yet it doesn't depress her the way focusing so intently on it all the time would upset and depress me. I think it's the Fi/Fe divide ... you Fi users can look at sad things and find the resonance in them, but you don't "invest in the object" the way Fe does. You're interested by it, but separate from it, whereas when I look at something awful, I can't help imagining how that person or animal felt in that moment ... their despair, their sadness, their sorrow. It overwhelms me and drowns me in misery.
> 
> In reality, I can't deal with this kind of thing. It's too ... emotionally devastating. In fiction, though, I am unafraid of it. I can look at a shredded corpse in Hannibal without batting an eyelash, but something real, and awful, like the Holocaust? Can't do it. I think my sensor qualities allows me to separate reality from fantasy, so I am comfortable with awful things in fantasy but not in reality. (Where the two overlap, though, I've noticed I have a hard time pulling back from my revulsion and not projecting it into reality -- like with violent crime dramas. I get so disgusted with awful men that I have a difficult time, when watching too many of them, not to be distrustful and suspicious of all strangers.)


This is interesting new information because I've always been interested in the Holocaust as well? I don't obsess over it by any means, but I've always wanted to take a class on it. I was going to take one this semester, and everyone was pretty shocked. "Why would you want to take that class? It'll be so depressing." I kind of laughed because it was so interesting to me, I didn't think it would be that much of a problem. Then I opened up one of the nine books we were to read for the semester and could not stop crying... I figured then that maybe the class wouldn't be the best for me personally. 

It's probably still Fe though? To me I was terrified by the Holocaust, and thought it terrible - I openly wept when we had our first class on it in elementary school (but I mean, everyone was probably weeping?), and it was especially sad to me because the teacher presenting it to us was a Jew himself and I didn't want anyone to hurt him (I didn't understand at the time that the Holocaust was over, anti-Semitic violence was no longer frequent; I worried for him when he left at the end of the year to another state. And I only met this man once.) - but for me I was fascinated by the conditions that led up to it. How could society turn on a group of people so quickly like that? How could people hurt people so easily, and see them as inhuman, torture them? How could anyone do that, ever? So I cried a lot while I read Holocaust literature (real life accounts) as a child, and really didn't look it up much beyond what we read in school, and I would just think about these beautiful people sometimes, these beautiful people who were taken by this terrible cruelty... and to me it was sad, it was devastating, it did challenge my view of the world, but I think I wanted to go back to it because I wanted to understand it more, maybe? I wanted to understand society more, and figure out the difference between our society that (to me then - I'm not so sure now for personal reasons) kept them from targeting innocent people, and the society of Nazi Germany that allowed them all to be so casually heartless. 

Sorry for butting in, but I do have an Fi-esque fascination with morbidity as well. 

Also, my ISFJ friend (I'm about to reference her a whole lot in my next post) does that as well, where crime dramas affect her. So does my newer ISFJ friend, who I talked about crime dramas with just last week. One of them had to stop watching them because they were interfering with her perception of reality (according to her parents, whose opinion she valued), and the other one has gone out of her way since childhood - even behind her parents' backs - to watch crime dramas because it just fascinated her so much. But she still references the dramas she's seen as fact, and grows scared sometimes if it reminds her of something she's seen in a crime show. That's something I just couldn't do... I can handle societal cruelty because there's an explanation for it, but when I see cruelty on an individual level it makes me shudder. Yet I wouldn't have a hard time separating _that_ from reality. It's easy for me to understand that it's just a dramatized show. I do have the opposite problem, though. Sometimes I get wrapped up in history and studying people that I slightly forget these people I'm studying, these societies I'm studying... that they were _real_, that people actually did and lived like this. I'm actually hoping to go visit a historical site over break so history can be made solid for me again.


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## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> No problem, you answer when your soul tells you to. Any other time is either obligation or hard feelings and self discovery should not be about those aspects.
> 
> It is easy to get biased in terms of Si as all stereotypes include comfort and lack of vision towards the new but it is not the case when dealing with the general idea. Types are branching through people and not reversed, this idea further more turns in terms of a slight "scale" when dealing with them. That means that you indeed will find more comfortable SJs but you can also find more comfortable NPs, NJs, SPs, etc., the secret lays in their thought process. If I want *applicable* ideas to solve my issues, I can always turn to an SJ as my solutions are always fairy-like and silly, most of the times I appear as a fool which does not bother me yet my problems still turn unsolved and there is where I need realism.
> 
> SJs still do not see the world as it is but not as a cataclysm of possibilities, everything is imbued with their impressions as a general way of meeting the world. Imagine them handshaking the world through this sliding sheet which will later be used a means of identifying the objective idea, they know what relaxes them, what stresses them and what they should avoid. Living with two of them for 18 years of my life gave me a slight understanding of their thought process, they will still get annoyed whenever I make the same mistake more than twice as a means of "never learning to adapt", nevertheless they remain amazing.
> 
> 
> And to give you another grasp, I am sharing my dorm room with two other girls, an ISFP and an ISFJ, and while I am spending my weekends here, the ISFJ prefers to stay in bed, read her cheesy classic love books (which she rereads all the time), only goes out with her boyfriend if she does at all but the thing is, her routine is indisputably fixed so deeply into herself, it is slightly scary and that is an *unhealthy example*, it does not render anything conclusive in a general aspect. Therefore biased opinions can appear at any time if you are not aware of a deep analysis of healthy and unhealthy types, Si in dom/aux positions is wonderful if known how to be balanced guess, I always imagine it would be awesome when writing a book as you would be able to play with impressions so that you hide the main mystery through different chambers.
> 
> And about the Suicide Forest, I will use one Ni-esque piece of advice: change the perspective and you will obtain something completely new. I basically realized how much the human mind and spirit runs into everything (if it can be considered human anymore after considering it as a sole identity and everything following it just a consequence of its growth) , ideals run everywhere, sadness is an idea, is sadness the fungus resulting? Is it still a form of life? What does it represent? And that resulted in an idea for my new prose. Inspiration is everywhere as well. That still did not stop me from falling asleep in the park thinking about it all yesterday as a result of 7 hours of continuous mental rambling. So it all comes with a relapsing price.


Ack, that still upsets me about the forest though? Maybe this is in-Ni of me, but I... can't do that. There's nothing good or productive about that great a pain (to me, right now...), and it's hard for me to... analyze sadness as a whole. I don't think I would consider it life, but it destroyed someone who was living, rooted out all hope for them... And of course I don't blame those who do that, it just makes me... sad. I wish the world wasn't so cruel that it made them feel that way, I wish everyone could be *happy* and not experience anything more than mild and manageable sadness... but that's not how the world is, and I must adopt my perception of the universe to accommodate that fact. 

Thank you for the kind words though, and the attempt to comfort me. I'm not upset about the forest at the moment - I've already tried to come to terms with it - it's just more that I'm starting to wrestle with the darker nature of humanity more and it's been something difficult to accommodate into my worldview. But I'm working on it. 

This is hopefully not too off-topic, but my room mate is an ISFJ too! I've referenced her here already (and everywhere...) so you might have already known her, but she's actually like my best friend. She's socially anxious like me (perhaps a bit more so... given my extroversion, though, I think she just feels anxiety in a different way than I do), but other than that I think she's pretty healthy. She does love to sleep (we both do) and she can procrastinate in a way you wouldn't think an SJ would, but she also has lovely organization skills I could only dream of, and so many office supplies (it's wonderful to share a dorm with someone who has been collecting office supplies since her childhood). She also loves romance novels (I don't know how or why? But she does), and she can watch the same five YouTube videos a billion times and still get the same kick out of them that she originally did. 

To me this is a healthier experience than with my xSTJ (probably ISTJ, I actually looked at angelcat's tertiary functions last night and tert Fi fits her better than tert Ne - her Ne isn't that strong) mother, who uses her routine as a stumbling block. We have to do this at this time and if we don't something bad will happen. We can't step out of order, or it messes up everything. Why did you already put your stuff in the car, you know we always put it by the stairs before taking it down. She uses steps to the point where it hinders her, and does things, like... even though we probably have the nicest house in the neighborhood (at least in terms of cleanliness) and definitely the second nicest house out of our entire, very large family, she stresses out about having everything in place whenever everyone comes over, or having to have _every_ part of the house ah hand always neat, orderly. This is actually a good thing - it's good to be organized, and clean, and it has had a very good impact on my environment growing up - but it's also harmful when it gets to the point where she values cleanliness over familial harmony (which I feel she does a lot) 

But, yeah... Just in general, I get what you mean. There are unhealthy SJs and healthy SJs. We hear about them so much though... Someone should write a few articles about what unhealthy NJs are like, or unhealthy NFs and NTs. Sensors aren't the only ones who can have very negative impacts when they get unhealthy.


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## AdInfinitum

angelcat said:


> Let me just say ... it is a delight to observe a real INFP amid all the online pretenders. You have such a beautiful expression of Fi/Ne in what you say that it makes me smile.
> 
> I'm somewhat envious of Fi's ability to be entirely separate from the object; to remain detached... interested, and perhaps even moved if so inclined, but not to get so lost in something that you abandon self in favor of the emotion of the object. My NFP friend can go up and thank WWII veterans for their service with such quiet gratitude and sincerity, and I would not be able to get the words out without choking up! She simply sees them, and thanks them, and I can't not think of the horrors they must have seen. It's really quite annoying at times. Heh.


It is more of a burden than of a gift to be honest, I never get to the point and core of issues, I continue swimming along them, not avoiding the sharks, I commence into talking about everything and then it backfires by nobody listening in the end or I am told I make literally no sense and put in the "broken and senseless" box. That is why I believe, deeply that every mind is brilliant, it just has not discovered itself in its purest form yet. 


Well, I identify with your friend there but I also see your point of view too, if you can dive into their perspective in such a deep manner that your feelings overflow you, you are left with a burning view of their relentless pain. I see their accomplishment and their pride into themselves, the courage, I know the torture slowly vanishes, yet... it might still be there covered by their love for the world itself. And while I do agree in a sense with Aristotle's theory that the purpose of life is finding happiness, I also believe in changing whatever in the sight of the human's inner eyes, whatever he feels wrong about and reaching absolution. And many other things, so I bet he feels accomplished on a higher level than the pain inflicted into his own soul.


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## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> It is more of a burden than of a gift to be honest, I never get to the point and core of issues, I continue swimming along them, not avoiding the sharks, I commence into talking about everything and then it backfires by nobody listening in the end or I am told I make literally no sense and put in the "broken and senseless" box. That is why I believe, deeply that every mind is brilliant, it just has not discovered itself in its purest form yet.
> 
> 
> Well, I identify with your friend there but I also see your point of view too, if you can dive into their perspective in such a deep manner that your feelings overflow you, you are left with a burning view of their relentless pain. I see their accomplishment and their pride into themselves, the courage, I know the torture slowly vanishes, yet... it might still be there covered by their love for the world itself. And while I do agree in a sense with Aristotle's theory that the purpose of life is finding happiness, I also believe in changing whatever in the sight of the human's inner eyes, whatever he feels wrong about and reaching absolution. And many other things, so I bet he feels accomplished on a higher level than the pain inflicted into his own soul.


I know I'm just a stranger you approached on the Internet... but I don't think anyone could really label you broken and senseless without being extremely ignorant. They could, and I'm sure people do sadly - people dismiss everyone for something - but they're not right at all. Your idea about every kind not reaching it's purest form is beautiful in itself, but it is your idea and I can't inflict my own thoughts on it, but... Nonetheless, it looks to me that you're on the right track to reaching that pure place you want your mind to be. You have some interesting philosophies, and some very deep thoughts, and it's very interesting and thought-provoking. Thank you for sharing them, but also know that, at least to me, you are far from being broken and senseless.


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## AdInfinitum

Well, you know my honest opinion, I still believe your Ni is obvious, in order not to decay away from the subject even more.


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## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> Well, you know my honest opinion, I still believe your Ni is obvious, in order not to decay away from the subject even more.


Aw, it's fine! There have been six pages talking about me anyway, if someone can get something from my topic other than me, that's wonderful. Even if that does involve derailing the thread a little. I really don't mind though.


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## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> Well, you know my honest opinion, I still believe your Ni is obvious, in order not to decay away from the subject even more.


Aw, it's fine! There have been six pages talking about me anyway, if someone can get something from my topic other than me, that's wonderful. Even if that does involve derailing the thread a little. I really don't mind though.


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## Pressed Flowers

Also, welcome, all 9 other PersonalityCafe members currently viewing this topic...


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## Pressed Flowers

penny lane said:


> I have seen it but I did watch it again. While I feel like I am likely Fi there are parts of both I feel like I can relate to making it confusing. Both have some awful sterotypes most of us wouldn't want to think we are capable of. Fe-wishy-washy,manipulative,follows the crowd even if it's wrong and cares too much what others think. Then there is Fi-selfish,inflexible,cold,doesn't cares about what others think I mean that could be carried too far too.Think what might happen when someone cares nothing of what others think?
> 
> I do care about others and don't feel like compromise is not a bad word but I decide things by my own sorting it out myself on how I feel about something or someone. That's what makes me feel I'm Fi and I have judged things that way since I was a kid.
> 
> The ESFJ vs ENFJ when I read it I could actually relate to both maybe that's high Ne? I would want to help right away but I also thing of how it plays out down the line?What comes next?
> 
> I always did find it interesting that Ne doms are the most introverted of extroverts.Maybe it's because there is a lot going on in an Ne's mind and they are not interesting in being in charge (Te) or relating to everyone (Fe) and not so out there and active(Se) .
> 
> Si (if I'm right about how it works)I for me is both the best and worst memories. I can relate to have a love /hate with traditions My Si is sentimental over practical although I have some of that too.As an example of both I have given away clothes that I wore because it's a reminder of something I would prefer not to remember. I don't mean just a funeral but something I wore during a painful experience(not that it happens that often but it's happened a few times. ) On the better side my favorite event or holiday is Halloween because I only have good memories of of that.Some details I'm good at but it's not like Si dom or aux would be-not like my mother.
> 
> 
> 
> Your thread also interested me as I'm trying to understand Ni better. I'm still in the process of understand the functions but some are easier to understand than others.


I can see how the video characterization is so extreme. I also thought the same thing, but not enough to vocalize it at the time. I think it's true at it's essence, though... Of course Fe users are selfish and have their own thoughts about things and Fi users care what others think and want others to be alright, because those are the better and worse parts of human nature and few people are exempt from those things, but I think at essence it's... something to consider. 

That might be Fi. Hmm. You could be right about being more of an ENFP though, if you didn't relate completely to what was said but related lightly. Do you have your own typing thread? I'm losing count of those that do, but just in general, it helps if you're wanting to settle on a type and figure out your functions/function order. 

Thank you for sharing how you experience Si  For me it's just... different. Memories make me sad, always have, so I'm not usually dragged down by them. The only time I've thrown away a shirt for a memory was when it was related to my trauma, which... yeah, that's a thing outside of functions. I can't think about past holidays during this current holiday, though (unless in terms of trauma during that holiday, ugh) - I'm more about how can we make a good time now, how can we make "new memories" (that I of course will be faint to remember, but for other people), how can we make this moment fun and happy. 

It's kind of sad to think about, how memories are so harmful to me, so sad, even the happy ones. I always have to move forward. But... that's just how it is for me, how it always has been 

Thank you again for your thoughts and the sharing of your experiences. Feel free to ask me questions if you think I could help you, whether on this thread or through either messaging system.


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## 68097

(Going back a dozen posts to the conversation about crime dramas...)

For me, I notice that I am much more optimistic and open toward other people when I'm not watching crime dramas, because so much death, destruction, rape, etc., being presented to me as "normal" (every week, in the crime drama) makes me suspicious and distrusting -- and I'm _already_ suspicious and distrusting. I've always been a bit antagonistic toward men, so anything that reinforces the idea that they are cruel, domineering, or bad only reinforces my trust issues negatively. 

I've tried to figure out why I'm okay with a really awful, violent, sick show like "Hannibal" but not okay with watching 16 hours of "Criminal Intent" in a row ... and I think it's ultimately because "Hannibal" is mostly a detached, thinking type of show, more about the psychology than the violence, and mostly centered around ONE evil man. It's so "out there" and fantastical that it doesn't cross over into "real life" for me, so I can keep it separate from the man on the street. If ... that makes any sense.


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## penny lane

alittlebear said:


> I can see how the video characterization is so extreme. I also thought the same thing, but not enough to vocalize it at the time. I think it's true at it's essence, though... Of course Fe users are selfish and have their own thoughts about things and Fi users care what others think and want others to be alright, because those are the better and worse parts of human nature and few people are exempt from those things, but I think at essence it's... something to consider.
> 
> That might be Fi. Hmm. You could be right about being more of an ENFP though, if you didn't relate completely to what was said but related lightly. Do you have your own typing thread? I'm losing count of those that do, but just in general, it helps if you're wanting to settle on a type and figure out your functions/function order.
> 
> Thank you for sharing how you experience Si  For me it's just... different. Memories make me sad, always have, so I'm not usually dragged down by them. The only time I've thrown away a shirt for a memory was when it was related to my trauma, which... yeah, that's a thing outside of functions. I can't think about past holidays during this current holiday, though (unless in terms of trauma during that holiday, ugh) - I'm more about how can we make a good time now, how can we make "new memories" (that I of course will be faint to remember, but for other people), how can we make this moment fun and happy.
> 
> It's kind of sad to think about, how memories are so harmful to me, so sad, even the happy ones. I always have to move forward. But... that's just how it is for me, how it always has been
> 
> Thank you again for your thoughts and the sharing of your experiences. Feel free to ask me questions if you think I could help you, whether on this thread or through either messaging system.


I have been planning on doing my own typing thread but when I think about it 's a point of the day that I'm too tired to do it but I may work on it this weekend.In the mean time I' reading others seeing what I relate to and what I don't.When I do maybe I will get a better idea if I'm totally off base or if I'm at least in the right neighborhood.I understand why so many end up back at square one.

I'm not sure I would be able to handle an in depth study of the Holocaust it was interesting to read how others feel about studying subject matter that heavy and tragic. I can watch certain crime shows with no problem but I know some who I know are Fe and they won't watch anything like that.I can handle Criminal Minds but I feel like it's tame compared to more violent entertainment that I can't deal with so I'm not sure where that leaves me on with the Fi . Maybe when I get around to doing that thread it will be less confusing to me.

I'm enjoying your thread very much.Thanks for your input.


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## AdInfinitum

angelcat said:


> (Going back a dozen posts to the conversation about crime dramas...)
> 
> For me, I notice that I am much more optimistic and open toward other people when I'm not watching crime dramas, because so much death, destruction, rape, etc., being presented to me as "normal" (every week, in the crime drama) makes me suspicious and distrusting -- and I'm _already_ suspicious and distrusting. I've always been a bit antagonistic toward men, so anything that reinforces the idea that they are cruel, domineering, or bad only reinforces my trust issues negatively.
> 
> I've tried to figure out why I'm okay with a really awful, violent, sick show like "Hannibal" but not okay with watching 16 hours of "Criminal Intent" in a row ... and I think it's ultimately because "Hannibal" is mostly a detached, thinking type of show, more about the psychology than the violence, and mostly centered around ONE evil man. It's so "out there" and fantastical that it doesn't cross over into "real life" for me, so I can keep it separate from the man on the street. If ... that makes any sense.


I have this theory that generally speaking, Ni attracts in ways Ne does not even dare to approach and that show is Ni land if you look into it.You are not only dealing with the everlasting classical battle of "good-evil" but also with the understanding of human nature and their connections, you are unconsciously drawn to it for its deeper meaning, Hannibal is still a mystery and at the end of the day he is not meant to be perceived as purely evil. Through every one of his crimes, he uncovers a part of himself and a part of others to himself so I guess that is one explanation. However choosing to suspect everything will still inflict this sense of rejecting the world and the world with its people is still such a curious and wonderful dream land that sometimes I question my own values. Remember people are still good to the core, they just lose themselves to pain mostly. 


And @alittlebear once I also used to think that the world shouldn't contain that maddening pain, yet I realize it's so diverse, it is a question itself, I believe the person transcends anyway, maybe through their authentic pain, maybe we should even reconsider the whole structure of this world, deeply so that everyone can find a deeper meaning, not only work and some aside activities, it is a pain that floats freely through the air, it drives it along but the nature of it is so controversial, you can not say it is not fantastic. The whole world is about discovering and missing puzzle pieces, sometimes I even see pieces which fall on top of eachother but you know, I believe the usual game structure is not accidental, you unlock one level through completing another one and along with the usual cold which still remains and enigma, pure pain is still a huge issue in psychology.


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## 68097

NobleRaven said:


> I have this theory that generally speaking, Ni attracts in ways Ne does not even dare to approach and that show is Ni land if you look into it.You are not only dealing with the everlasting classical battle of "good-evil" but also with the understanding of human nature and their connections, you are unconsciously drawn to it for its deeper meaning, Hannibal is still a mystery and at the end of the day he is not meant to be perceived as purely evil. Through every one of his crimes, he uncovers a part of himself and a part of others to himself so I guess that is one explanation. However choosing to suspect everything will still inflict this sense of rejecting the world and the world with its people is still such a curious and wonderful dream land that sometimes I question my own values. Remember people are still good to the core, they just lose themselves to pain mostly.


“Hannibal” is indeed a very Ni-show… which may be one reason I enjoy it so much, because it’s such a fascinating glimpse into their thought process and worldview; their use of symbolism. Hannibal is able to do what he does only because he reduces people to objects and symbols inside his own mind – he devalues and dehumanizes them, and is therefore able to pull them apart and see them as an object of … art… food… poor taste. So, I have an interesting relationship with it, as a viewer – a repulsion for the crimes and sickening violence, and a fascination for the psychology behind his actions, and his manipulation of other people. Hannibal, and the show itself, is a fantasy of sorts. I have the same peculiar fascination with the book series it’s based on, and the movies too. 

I like intellectual things, that make me think, question, and ask me to step into the realm of abstraction and symbolism, very much. (Bustin’ SJ stereotypes, yo!) But … I become disturbed if this crosses over into reality; I can find Hannibal intriguing but Hitler? Oh, dear… that really happened. How depressing!


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## Pressed Flowers

I haven't watched Hannibal (mostly because it's not on Netflix...), but I can understand why people would like it. I don't think I could watch Dexter - I have a cousin who loves it and wanted me to watch it but I just told him... no... - but with Hannibal it seems so... deep, and, yes, an interesting look into the psychology of a killer. From just watching the trailer I can tell that the entire show would be pretty triggering to me, but had it been three years ago I know I would have loved watching it. 

I do understand where you're coming from, @NobleRaven. I've had my view of the fundamental core "good" nature of people challenged lately - I've realized that some people may just be cruel, and they dehumanize others without a second thought... and that is... terrible, indescribably terrible... but I used to share your view that everyone is good at the core. I actually really like the Harry Potter quote, that _“We've all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the part we choose to act on. That's who we really are.”_ I think that some people do truly choose darkness - choosing to hurt people, to hurt people intentionally... to hurt the world... - while other people - I would argue most people - do want to do good, and don't go out of their way to be unkind and hurtful. Of course I also think that someone can come back from darkness, and can choose light, but... I don't know. I know very few truly dark people who ever realize that any of the terrible things they did were wrong. 

And I also feel a bit bad for inflicting this idea of judging someone by how much they hurt others on people... because to me that is how I live my life, I value helping others and that's what comes most naturally to me, helping others and not inflicting pain on the world. But then again, I think that it's pretty obvious that not hurting others is the right thing to do. I have a hard time comprehending it when some believe otherwise, although I... try to understand them. to some extent. 
@penny lane 
I'm glad my topic is helping you! That's always nice  I completely understand about not always having the time to do a typing thread. It is best to do one when you're comfortable and relaxed (not like this latest one I did here, where I was tryi to quickly fill it out and maybe didn't articulate myself as well as I sometimes do). Maybe I'll be able to help you when your thread comes out (or maybe not because I'm so uncertain about typing others), but regardless I'm confident someone will come along and help you figure yourself out. 

It's just kind of funny how everyone is so sad about crime dramas... to me the worst thing is when my grandfather is watching those mock court things and the people just... embarrass themselves... Of course I feel bad for the situations because there are few definite rights and wrongs in those court shows, but it's just so sad to me because these people are making fools of themselves on public television and everyone can see it. That's what bothers me, more than say a creepy documentary. 

also @NobleRaven you are so Fi and Ne, but in such a good and beautiful way. Just the things you say, it's interesting because through them I can have a glimpse into how Fi and Ne work together (and how I am actually, in no way, Fi or high-up Ne). Like I don't see the world as a puzzle - I see the world as the world, this giant thing I must spend my life trying to comprehend and help - and I don't see or analyze pain... I just see it, find it, and want to fix it, eradicate the sadness of others and the pain in the world. Of course I know I can't, but I still seek to whenever I come across it.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> (Going back a dozen posts to the conversation about crime dramas...)
> 
> For me, I notice that I am much more optimistic and open toward other people when I'm not watching crime dramas, because so much death, destruction, rape, etc., being presented to me as "normal" (every week, in the crime drama) makes me suspicious and distrusting -- and I'm _already_ suspicious and distrusting. I've always been a bit antagonistic toward men, so anything that reinforces the idea that they are cruel, domineering, or bad only reinforces my trust issues negatively.
> 
> I've tried to figure out why I'm okay with a really awful, violent, sick show like "Hannibal" but not okay with watching 16 hours of "Criminal Intent" in a row ... and I think it's ultimately because "Hannibal" is mostly a detached, thinking type of show, more about the psychology than the violence, and mostly centered around ONE evil man. It's so "out there" and fantastical that it doesn't cross over into "real life" for me, so I can keep it separate from the man on the street. If ... that makes any sense.


Nailed it. I can relate lol. 

Similar to you, I love psychology, cults and serial killers. I don't look up to cult leaders, but it's such a fascinating concept. When I'm learning about these topics from a logical, detached, clinical perspective, I'm not angry. Example:






This doesn't upset me, because it's from a logical perspective. They're merely explaining how cults work. They're discussing the inner mechanics and strategies of how cults organize themselves to reach to others and control them. It's useful information, self protection, so you can know how cults work and fight against them. The fact cults exist does anger me, but seeing the knowledge helps me realize what's going on from an objective lens, so I can tap against the feeling and find an objective goal to work towards.

Now, if this was from an emotional perspective, showing how cults affect people through their emotions, I would get so angry. I watched this documentary, Jesus Camp, and if that camp could be classified as a cult is another can of worms I'm not opening today, but I saw all these kids being manipulated and cohered into this system, and I was so upset. I watched them cry, suffer, shake, and be submitted to strange rituals without reasoning or knowledge for why they were doing what they were doing. I wasn't seeing facts or logic, just pure emotion, and it was so draining, yet tantalizing at the same time.

I think tert Ti can help look at things from a more detached, logical perspective, while inferior Ti makes this much more difficult. If I showed my mother that video, she'd just get upset, and I'll bet my entire life on her being an ESFJ.


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## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla I watched the video some time ago, and... it was a bit upsetting to me. I think it was mostly the format that creeped me out... I can handle informational videos, but the way in which this was presented was off-putting to me. I could get through it once, but it wouldn't want to watch it again. (Also yes, Jesus Camp was pretty unsettling as well. It's one thing to see adults go through that, quite another to see real kids.)

Even just watching that new show Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, I got mildly upset at how they were treated by the cult leader. The parts at the end where he was manipulating everyone for comedic purposes... I found that extremely unsettling :/ I could recognize why it was "funny," but at the same time it was so real to me - something people actually do, something that hurts actual people - that I couldn't find it too funny myself.


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## Deadly Decorum

@alittlebear? What in particular about the format was upsetting to you?

Jesus Camp was difficult because while I've never experienced negative church experiences in such an extreme light, I've seen similar things. Yes I know, there are good churches blah blah blah, but I think people like to ignore the negative and focus on the good. We need to focus on both good and bad- black and white and absolute morals are the enemy and destruction of this society. We need all the pieces, the big picture of what's going on, not some biased perspective.

Never watched it, but that rarely bothers me as I know it's a fictional account and not reality. Some emotional things in fiction have pissed me off though, but the only example I can think of is some childhood experience I don't want to discuss. I haven't watched much TV lately.


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## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> @alittlebear? What in particular about the format was upsetting to you?
> 
> Jesus Camp was difficult because while I've never experienced negative church experiences in such an extreme light, I've seen similar things. Yes I know, there are good churches blah blah blah, but I think people like to ignore the negative and focus on the good. We need to focus on both good and bad- black and white and absolute morals are the enemy and destruction of this society. We need all the pieces, the big picture of what's going on, not some biased perspective.
> 
> Never watched it, but that rarely bothers me as I know it's a fictional account and not reality. Some emotional things in fiction have pissed me off though, but the only example I can think of is some childhood experience I don't want to discuss. I haven't watched much TV lately.


I think it's pretty obvious why it was upsetting to me? Maybe not. Just the way they did it, with that music in the background, and the stick people cult figures, the way the filming was poor... It was just creepy. I could stand a movie about a cult, the development of a cult, an actual History Channel - esque documentary, but I have little tolerance for creepy videos like that. 

And yes... I get what you mean about Jesus Camp. I'm Catholic, so things like that - different churches that use... different methods - are especially upsetting to me. Quite a few of my friends are actually in a church like that right now, and it's terrifying to me. I don't think it's cult-like in that it's malicious and going to get them killed (it's more geared towards money honestly, and social dominance/obedience), but just watching a few minutes of that video you linked... They do a lot of those things, unfortunately. It's weird but sad, and ultimately something you can't help them with because they grow so determined that everyone who disagrees with them is "the enemy," and trying to hurt them/a bad person. :/ 

I accidentally watched Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, the entire first season, in two days. It was the perfect uplifting thing I've been looking for, honestly. And things on TV actually bother me significantly if they portray something insensitively, whether it's a negative stereotype of a minority or just the dehumanization of any person (be them villain or otherwise). Media has such a hold on society, and I get upset when I see media that's going to indirectly or directly have very negative consequences for any person.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> I think it's pretty obvious why it was upsetting to me? Maybe not. Just the way they did it, with that music in the background, and the stick people cult figures, the way the filming was poor... It was just creepy. I could stand a movie about a cult, the development of a cult, an actual History Channel - esque documentary, but I have little tolerance for creepy videos like that.
> 
> And yes... I get what you mean about Jesus Camp. I'm Catholic, so things like that - different churches that use... different methods - are especially upsetting to me. Quite a few of my friends are actually in a church like that right now, and it's terrifying to me. I don't think it's cult-like in that it's malicious and going to get them killed (it's more geared towards money honestly, and social dominance/obedience), but just watching a few minutes of that video you linked... They do a lot of those things, unfortunately. It's weird but sad, and ultimately something you can't help them with because they grow so determined that everyone who disagrees with them is "the enemy," and trying to hurt them/a bad person. :/
> 
> I accidentally watched Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, the entire first season, in two days. It was the perfect uplifting thing I've been looking for, honestly. And things on TV actually bother me significantly if they portray something insensitively, whether it's a negative stereotype of a minority or just the dehumanization of any person (be them villain or otherwise). Media has such a hold on society, and I get upset when I see media that's going to indirectly or directly have very negative consequences for any person.


I guess I was looking for the specific, subjective reasons of why those particular things upset you, because all I know is that they upset you, but not why. You don't have to answer that.

No, you can change, if you put your foot down and stand up to what they're doing. You just need to organize a large group of people as one person is rarely listened to, unfortunately.

I used to believe media was purely irresponsible for how people perceive the world, but I've changed my mind. I still believe in the freedom of expression, but with logical explanation. It's like how in vintage cartoon collection sets where the racist material is not removed, but given warnings about the content and why it's not acceptable. People want to remove reality to preventing it fro happening, but that does nothing. 

Though there is the argument of predisposition, which I'd have to investigate further. I know for me, violent video games didn't make me go out and kill people, and places like Japan, full of violent video games, have lower violence rates than the US. So is it really violence and media that leads others to kill in and of itself, or is it a predisposition? Not every person who views a magazine is going to develop an eating disorder, so I believe it's predisposition, but I need more information. The media does have an effect, however, but I think we can find ways to serve others without infringing on freedom of expression in the media.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> I guess I was looking for the specific, subjective reasons of why those particular things upset you, because all I know is that they upset you, but not why. You don't have to answer that.
> 
> No, you can change, if you put your foot down and stand up to what they're doing. You just need to organize a large group of people as one person is rarely listened to, unfortunately.
> 
> I used to believe media was purely irresponsible for how people perceive the world, but I've changed my mind. I still believe in the freedom of expression, but with logical explanation. It's like how in vintage cartoon collection sets where the racist material is not removed, but given warnings about the content and why it's not acceptable. People want to remove reality to preventing it fro happening, but that does nothing.
> 
> Though there is the argument of predisposition, which I'd have to investigate further. I know for me, violent video games didn't make me go out and kill people, and places like Japan, full of violent video games, have lower violence rates than the US. So is it really violence and media that leads others to kill in and of itself, or is it a predisposition? Not every person who views a magazine is going to develop an eating disorder, so I believe it's predisposition, but I need more information. The media does have an effect, however, but I think we can find ways to serve others without infringing on freedom of expression in the media.


For me... I care less about the connection between violence and video games and more about how the media influences the way we perceive people who are different. When there isn't a "normal," sympathetic protagonist representing a person, the members a minority group - a Middle Eastern woman, a poverty-stricken man who struggles with drugs, a person struggling with delusions, a transgender teenager - are negatively impacted. They are dehumanized. And it's sad. 

For instance, I was watching a movie with my dad the other weekend (he wanted to see it and I didn't want to see the other movie so I went) called the Kingsman or something. The only black character, the only disabled character was a villain. Everyone else was white, able-bodied, but the _one_ non-white and disabled character was the antagonist, who was portrayed as both evil and stupid. There's a problem with that. People may not realize it, but these portrayals make them other people who are portrayed negatively in media - in this case, this movie will plant seeds of discomfort and dehumanization for black men and people with lisps. And they aren't even aware of it. The movie had a clearly ableist joke in reference to the villain's lisp and over half the theatre laughed. These things have a very real impact on those who watch them. 

It was really just the formatting that upset me, I think. That and I couldn't determine what would make someone want to start a cult. Just.. Why? Do they enjoy having that control over people? Even though it ruins their lives, steals the spark of their existence? It just doesn't make any, any sense to me. I know people do it, and to me the stuff in the video was pretty obvious - of course that's how you start a cult, it's fairly simple - but why would anyone do that? That's what I wanted to know when I watched the video, I think. 

Right now I'm just trying to help my friends realize they have friends outside the lite cult group. I try to invite them out with me and my friends whenever I can... just to remind them that they don't need that group, that they can survive without it. My friend is wavering on these things currently... one day she'll say "That's ridiculous, I can't believe they think that, I don't know why I still participate" but then the next day she's going to one of their group things and talking about how much she just wants to fit in. It's sad, but... I think she won't get too far into it. We'll see, though. :/


----------



## Dangerose

(This has got to be the most interesting conversation on a 'what's my type' thread I've ever seen)
I'm still trying to work out if I'm Fe or Fi and I wonder how I match up? (Sorry, not trying to steal your thread, @alittlebear...) I'm thinking maybe Fi?

Because I'll occasionally have a brief morbid fascination with, say, serial killers and it doesn't _bother_ me (it terrifies me to walk alone at night then) but while I'm just looking at the actual facts, it's just like, "Wow, it is mind-boggling that someone could actually order their life around recreational killing" or something. Same, with like, the Black Plague or some basic tragedy...it fascinates me but I have to work, to imagine, to concentrate to make it feel relevant. I'm honestly unmoved when I see tragedies on the news. When I was young and the planes crashed into the Twin Towers, I could not understand why everyone was so upset. It was like, "So, lots of people died...but don't lots of people die every day?" And basically that's how I still feel deep down when I find out about things like that.

But if I watch some sort of serial that is getting into the mind of a killer, or read a book like that, I will start to feel almost physically ill. (I even _wrote_ a book from the perspective of a sort of serial killer and it made me feel terrible, I _hated_ getting inside her brain). It feels like it's letting the evil inside me, I just feel really...tainted. Shows like Hannibal or Dexter just freak me out. There are books that have honestly just felt so _evil_ to me that I won't even keep them in my library. But I guess it has to be personalized for me to be affected?

I'm not totally heartless: if someone in the room, or on the television, is crying, I will probably start crying too. Sad books make me really sad. But I hear about the Holocaust, and it just feels like, "So lots of people died, so someone was power-hungry and driven by a mad vision...that happens, that's too bad". And I can be interested in those things without being affected.

So...is that Fi?


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## Dangerose

^The first paragraph is unclear; I definitely think that you are a Fe user, the "I'm thinking Fi" sentence was about myself!


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## Deadly Decorum

@alittlebear Never invite me into a thread. I will go entirely off topic, though it could be useful for you, as your arguments here can give lurkers something to pick at. lol

The connection between violence and video games is important, as it ties down to the overall theme we're discussing. Does the media influence people? Do minorities portrayal influence others, or is that a predisposition to the ignorant, and not humanity as a whole?


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> But if I watch some sort of serial that is getting into the mind of a killer, or read a book like that, I will start to feel almost physically ill. (I even _wrote_ a book from the perspective of a sort of serial killer and it made me feel terrible, I _hated_ getting inside her brain). It feels like it's letting the evil inside me, I just feel really...tainted. Shows like Hannibal or Dexter just freak me out. There are books that have honestly just felt so _evil_ to me that I won't even keep them in my library. But I guess it has to be personalized for me to be affected?
> 
> I'm not totally heartless: if someone in the room, or on the television, is crying, I will probably start crying too. Sad books make me really sad. But I hear about the Holocaust, and it just feels like, "So lots of people died, so someone was power-hungry and driven by a mad vision...that happens, that's too bad". And I can be interested in those things without being affected.
> 
> So...is that Fi?


To me, that sounds more like Fe... investing in the object in front of you, and allowing it to influence your emotions. Fi users are detached from the object and pulling subjective information from it, whereas Fe is simply investing in it. Crying because someone else is crying is not Fi. 

Regarding the Holocaust... I can think about it on platonic terms... but I had to quit watching the WIII documentaries because they interviewed people who had turned their neighbors into the Gestapo and despite knowing exactly what happened to them ... they were still not sorry. That was just unfathomably evil. These people weren't even Nazis. They didn't work for anyone. But they felt such dislike for a neighbor, or the lesbian down the street, that they turned them in and have no remorse. That humanized it. I invested in the object, the people in front of me, in what happened, and ... I was appalled. Sickened. Disgusted. 

Just like when Saddam went to his death and everyone was celebrating. It made me sick. I don't care who he was, or what he did -- you do not celebrate a man's death. 

/ derail of thread


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## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> (This has got to be the most interesting conversation on a 'what's my type' thread I've ever seen)
> I'm still trying to work out if I'm Fe or Fi and I wonder how I match up? (Sorry, not trying to steal your thread, @alittlebear...) I'm thinking maybe Fi?
> 
> Because I'll occasionally have a brief morbid fascination with, say, serial killers and it doesn't _bother_ me (it terrifies me to walk alone at night then) but while I'm just looking at the actual facts, it's just like, "Wow, it is mind-boggling that someone could actually order their life around recreational killing" or something. Same, with like, the Black Plague or some basic tragedy...it fascinates me but I have to work, to imagine, to concentrate to make it feel relevant. I'm honestly unmoved when I see tragedies on the news. When I was young and the planes crashed into the Twin Towers, I could not understand why everyone was so upset. It was like, "So, lots of people died...but don't lots of people die every day?" And basically that's how I still feel deep down when I find out about things like that.
> 
> But if I watch some sort of serial that is getting into the mind of a killer, or read a book like that, I will start to feel almost physically ill. (I even _wrote_ a book from the perspective of a sort of serial killer and it made me feel terrible, I _hated_ getting inside her brain). It feels like it's letting the evil inside me, I just feel really...tainted. Shows like Hannibal or Dexter just freak me out. There are books that have honestly just felt so _evil_ to me that I won't even keep them in my library. But I guess it has to be personalized for me to be affected?
> 
> I'm not totally heartless: if someone in the room, or on the television, is crying, I will probably start crying too. Sad books make me really sad. But I hear about the Holocaust, and it just feels like, "So lots of people died, so someone was power-hungry and driven by a mad vision...that happens, that's too bad". And I can be interested in those things without being affected.
> 
> So...is that Fi?


That's interesting. Things like 9/11 upset me much more than TV shows like Dexter or Hannibal. Dexter is actually sexy to me, LOL


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> (This has got to be the most interesting conversation on a 'what's my type' thread I've ever seen)
> I'm still trying to work out if I'm Fe or Fi and I wonder how I match up? (Sorry, not trying to steal your thread, @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=167082" target="_blank">alittlebear</a></i></span>...) I'm thinking maybe Fi?
> 
> Because I'll occasionally have a brief morbid fascination with, say, serial killers and it doesn't _bother_ me (it terrifies me to walk alone at night then) but while I'm just looking at the actual facts, it's just like, "Wow, it is mind-boggling that someone could actually order their life around recreational killing" or something. Same, with like, the Black Plague or some basic tragedy...it fascinates me but I have to work, to imagine, to concentrate to make it feel relevant. I'm honestly unmoved when I see tragedies on the news. When I was young and the planes crashed into the Twin Towers, I could not understand why everyone was so upset. It was like, "So, lots of people died...but don't lots of people die every day?" And basically that's how I still feel deep down when I find out about things like that.
> 
> But if I watch some sort of serial that is getting into the mind of a killer, or read a book like that, I will start to feel almost physically ill. (I even _wrote_ a book from the perspective of a sort of serial killer and it made me feel terrible, I _hated_ getting inside her brain). It feels like it's letting the evil inside me, I just feel really...tainted. Shows like Hannibal or Dexter just freak me out. There are books that have honestly just felt so _evil_ to me that I won't even keep them in my library. But I guess it has to be personalized for me to be affected?
> 
> I'm not totally heartless: if someone in the room, or on the television, is crying, I will probably start crying too. Sad books make me really sad. But I hear about the Holocaust, and it just feels like, "So lots of people died, so someone was power-hungry and driven by a mad vision...that happens, that's too bad". And I can be interested in those things without being affected.
> 
> So...is that Fi?


Hi Oswin! Don't feel bad. If anything I feel bad, because I have so many replies to my thread and you don't have nearly as many :/ It's funny you mention that you think you're Fi because... you just seem so Fe to me. I was actually going to post that on your thread the other night, but I'm not the best at typing so I don't want to confuse you... It's just that the things you described as being not Fe or Ti to me did seem Fe and Ti. Fe-doms still have morals. Fe-doms can still do what's right. Fe-doms don't always have to be slaves to peer pressure. Fe-doms just have dominant Fe, they don't have to fit every Fe stereotype out there. 

I relate to some of what you've said here, actually. Like... like honestly 9/11 subconsciously affected me a lot when I was a kid (I'm only just realizing this, that 9/11 might have impacted some of my anxiety, at least a little) but it still... Like you said, people die every single day, and to me it feels so... weird that we talk about how people here died, when so many other people die everywhere every single day and we don't make a big deal about that. I think we're scared of 9/11 because it was an attack on American soil, but like... That's so americentric to me. To be terrified by this because it happened here, but then not bat an eye when we hear that people are dying in other countries... to value those who died in 9/11 because they were _innocent Americans_ but not have that same grief for innocent children who die at the hands of those fighting for the US... It's just... I don't know. Of course I feel bad saying this, because it is such a controversial opinion and of course 9/11 was absolutely terrible, and my heart goes out to all who lost their lives and family members there... but to me it's just so sad that we mourn that but we don't mourn all the other terrible things in the world. Of course we would be very sad people if everyone mourned all the bad things in the world, but... I don't know. 

And, well... Granted that I'm Fe, I can see you as Fe as well. Crying when someone on TV cries sounds Fe to me. Realizing that everyone dies every day and not valuing one person's life over another seems Fe to me. But who knows, I might be mistyped too. 

Oh, and I _completely_ relate about the book thing too. I write a lot, and I... I just can't write from the villain, or I struggle to write from the villain. One of my characters is a little ESTP boy who thinks of himself as superior to others, and dehumanizes those around him, and I have a hard enough time with that. I usually avoid writing about the villains, now that I think about it. 

So... yeah. I don't think you're Fi - I can still really see you as ESFJ - but I'm not the best typer and I'm largely basing that judgment on my somewhat non-typed self so I'm not sure how much my judgment counts here. 

Have you watched the video that Emberfly's been posting about Fe vs Fi? I've posted it twice here so I imagine you've seen it, but I'll post it again anyway. Just give me a second to go fetch the link.

Edit: here's the video! It is a bit stereotypical, but I really think it gets to the core of the two functions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> @alittlebear Never invite me into a thread. I will go entirely off topic, though it could be useful for you, as your arguments here can give lurkers something to pick at. lol
> 
> The connection between violence and video games is important, as it ties down to the overall theme we're discussing. Does the media influence people? Do minorities portrayal influence others, or is that a predisposition to the ignorant, and not humanity as a whole?


Aha yeah, I've been hoping someone will look at my incoherent rumblings and use them to prove I'm... something. That's why the Socionics questionnaire was interesting, to some extent, because it took some of my thought processes about a variety of things and came up with a type...

And while it is an interesting connection, a big part of me remembers that Fe or Fi users can think that media does or does not heavily influence society. My dad, a tert Fe user, says media has no impact on society. My room mate, aux Fe user, insists media has everything to do with influencing society. I see it more as a mirror, as a sort of symbiosis - media influences society but media portrayals arise based on societal conditions - they give and take, and each can be blamed for its part. 

Also feel free to stay haha, it seems we could be getting something out of these rumblings somehow or another. And conversation is interesting


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## Deadly Decorum

@alittlebear I never thought about how we focus so much on a particular murder case and ignore others until it was pointed out to me. When I witnessed 9/11, I wanted to do what I can to help prevent things like that from happening, to support the sufferers. I was super inspired by all those people making kits for victims. I just wanted to change and help the whole entire world. Same with Katrina. Instant reaction was to send a backpack of supplies to make an impact and difference on the world. I'd help build houses if I could have, but I was a little 11 yr old girl from Washington. That was out of my hands. 

I think people refer to murders that have a huge impact on the entire world, that strike relevance to people. There are so many murder cases that happen every day that the whole bulk of the news would be about murder if that's what we choose to dwell on. I still think cases need recognition, but it makes sense to me. The Twin Towers has so much relevance to others, and affected so many people and made such a big scene that it would make sense that more people would be involved. It's not as obscure as a man murdering his wife in a small city few people know about. If the murder doesn't strike significance to others, making people spread the word or take a stand, it's not going to reach the news. Not that some murders are more important than others; it's just how I see it.


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## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> I see it more as a mirror, as a sort of symbiosis - media influences society but media portrayals arise based on societal conditions - they give and take, and each can be blamed for its part.


Could be wrong, but I see Fe laced with a bit of Ni here. Mirrors are an analogy for how media influences other people, how media and social rules react or respond to each other.


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## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> To me, that sounds more like Fe... investing in the object in front of you, and allowing it to influence your emotions. Fi users are detached from the object and pulling subjective information from it, whereas Fe is simply investing in it. Crying because someone else is crying is not Fi.
> 
> Regarding the Holocaust... I can think about it on platonic terms... but I had to quit watching the WIII documentaries because they interviewed people who had turned their neighbors into the Gestapo and despite knowing exactly what happened to them ... they were still not sorry. That was just unfathomably evil. These people weren't even Nazis. They didn't work for anyone. But they felt such dislike for a neighbor, or the lesbian down the street, that they turned them in and have no remorse. That humanized it. I invested in the object, the people in front of me, in what happened, and ... I was appalled. Sickened. Disgusted.
> 
> Just like when Saddam went to his death and everyone was celebrating. It made me sick. I don't care who he was, or what he did -- you do not celebrate a man's death.
> 
> / derail of thread


Aha, so I'm not the only one who still sees even the things @Oswin considers Fi as actually Fe. 

I feel the same exact way about Sadam Hussein. I was very small when it happened, so naturally I was even more sensitive to those things than I am now... but it felt so wrong to me. How could they think killing him way okay? Why would they do it like that? Why was the event being shown, being shown on TVs that were airing at family-owned restaurants? Of course these things happen all the time - we learn about the justice served to a criminal on TV very frequently, of course - but when I was little I think this was the first time I actually had a realization of it. I can't bear to see anyone hurt, regardless of if they've hurt others (or even me, for that matter). I want justice in the sense I want them to realize what they've done is wrong, and to stop... but I don't want them to be killed, or even to have their lives ruined for what they've done. I just want them to adopt kindness and live a better life without hurting people :/


----------



## LavenderMoon

alittlebear, if there was a reward for awesome personal threads made that influence everyone else to consider themselves again, you'd have a million of them. Seriously, I relate so much to what you guys are saying and it's confusing the crap out of me (only in the best way, though).

(Also, I have no idea how to do the mention thing. Technology hates me.)


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## Deadly Decorum

@LavenderMoon- @ lavendermoon without the space between the username and @ symbol


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## penny lane

alittlebear said:


> I haven't watched Hannibal (mostly because it's not on Netflix...), but I can understand why people would like it. I don't think I could watch Dexter - I have a cousin who loves it and wanted me to watch it but I just told him... no... - but with Hannibal it seems so... deep, and, yes, an interesting look into the psychology of a killer. From just watching the trailer I can tell that the entire show would be pretty triggering to me, but had it been three years ago I know I would have loved watching it.
> 
> I do understand where you're coming from, @_NobleRaven_. I've had my view of the fundamental core "good" nature of people challenged lately - I've realized that some people may just be cruel, and they dehumanize others without a second thought... and that is... terrible, indescribably terrible... but I used to share your view that everyone is good at the core. I actually really like the Harry Potter quote, that _“We've all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the part we choose to act on. That's who we really are.”_ I think that some people do truly choose darkness - choosing to hurt people, to hurt people intentionally... to hurt the world... - while other people - I would argue most people - do want to do good, and don't go out of their way to be unkind and hurtful. Of course I also think that someone can come back from darkness, and can choose light, but... I don't know. I know very few truly dark people who ever realize that any of the terrible things they did were wrong.
> 
> And I also feel a bit bad for inflicting this idea of judging someone by how much they hurt others on people... because to me that is how I live my life, I value helping others and that's what comes most naturally to me, helping others and not inflicting pain on the world. But then again, I think that it's pretty obvious that not hurting others is the right thing to do. I have a hard time comprehending it when some believe otherwise, although I... try to understand them. to some extent.
> @_penny lane_
> I'm glad my topic is helping you! That's always nice  I completely understand about not always having the time to do a typing thread. It is best to do one when you're comfortable and relaxed (not like this latest one I did here, where I was tryi to quickly fill it out and maybe didn't articulate myself as well as I sometimes do). Maybe I'll be able to help you when your thread comes out (or maybe not because I'm so uncertain about typing others), but regardless I'm confident someone will come along and help you figure yourself out.
> 
> It's just kind of funny how everyone is so sad about crime dramas... to me the worst thing is when my grandfather is watching those mock court things and the people just... embarrass themselves... Of course I feel bad for the situations because there are few definite rights and wrongs in those court shows, but it's just so sad to me because these people are making fools of themselves on public television and everyone can see it. That's what bothers me, more than say a creepy documentary.
> 
> also @_NobleRaven_ you are so Fi and Ne, but in such a good and beautiful way. Just the things you say, it's interesting because through them I can have a glimpse into how Fi and Ne work together (and how I am actually, in no way, Fi or high-up Ne). Like I don't see the world as a puzzle - I see the world as the world, this giant thing I must spend my life trying to comprehend and help - and I don't see or analyze pain... I just see it, find it, and want to fix it, eradicate the sadness of others and the pain in the world. Of course I know I can't, but I still seek to whenever I come across it.


If you mean the Judge Judy type of shows I know what you mean. I think seriously there are people who want to expose themselves like this? But I know people who love this kind off show it's like their guilt (or not so guilty) pleasure. 

What I like about Criminal Minds well there are a few things actually.To start with I like not having to question the agents integrity they are flawed but not so much in question .I also like that the team is it's own family unit. That feeds the idealist in the sentimental side of me the other part of me likes watching them work and how the approach the job. The other part is how they handle the violence I can watch without being too squeamish. 

I don't however have a problem with characters that are more in the grayish area. That happens even to the most heroic characters on Gotham I don't mind that I don't even mind the over the top elements of the show. How they show the violence is what gives me a love/hate feeling for the show. I'm sure this all plays into my type and if I'm off base about my type that's okay I'm looking forward to having some clarity on the subject.


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## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> Aha, so I'm not the only one who still sees even the things @Oswin considers Fi as actually Fe.
> 
> I feel the same exact way about Sadam Hussein. I was very small when it happened, so naturally I was even more sensitive to those things than I am now... but it felt so wrong to me. How could they think killing him way okay? Why would they do it like that? Why was the event being shown, being shown on TVs that were airing at family-owned restaurants? Of course these things happen all the time - we learn about the justice served to a criminal on TV very frequently, of course - but when I was little I think this was the first time I actually had a realization of it. I can't bear to see anyone hurt, regardless of if they've hurt others (or even me, for that matter). I want justice in the sense I want them to realize what they've done is wrong, and to stop... but I don't want them to be killed, or even to have their lives ruined for what they've done. I just want them to adopt kindness and live a better life without hurting people :/


For me it was a hypocrisy issue. Fighting evil with evil. That's why I couldn't comprehend the death penalty. Why get back at someone for murdering or other crimes by murdering? Moral hypocrisy, yeah, that will show em.


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## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> I've noticed this sort of ... detached fascination with morbid things in my NFP friends. One of them has this unyielding obsession with the Holocaust. It's her life most of the time, yet it doesn't depress her the way focusing so intently on it all the time would upset and depress me. I think it's the Fi/Fe divide ... you Fi users can look at sad things and find the resonance in them, but you don't "invest in the object" the way Fe does. You're interested by it, but separate from it, whereas when I look at something awful, I can't help imagining how that person or animal felt in that moment ... their despair, their sadness, their sorrow. It overwhelms me and drowns me in misery.
> 
> In reality, I can't deal with this kind of thing. It's too ... emotionally devastating. In fiction, though, I am unafraid of it. I can look at a shredded corpse in Hannibal without batting an eyelash, but something real, and awful, like the Holocaust? Can't do it. I think my sensor qualities allows me to separate reality from fantasy, so I am comfortable with awful things in fantasy but not in reality. (Where the two overlap, though, I've noticed I have a hard time pulling back from my revulsion and not projecting it into reality -- like with violent crime dramas. I get so disgusted with awful men that I have a difficult time, when watching too many of them, not to be distrustful and suspicious of all strangers.)


I've been rereading this thread, and I have a question.

Your grandmother brings a cute cat in a box. It's intestines are hanging out... the theory is someone lit firecracks up it's butt. There's no evidence, but it seems probable.

So you go to the vet with her, and they say the surgery would be expensive with too many risks, so you have to put it down. Your grandmother is crying, and you feel like you should be crying too, but you can't. You feel heartless because you're not upset, but logically, that cat needed to be put asleep. It was the best thing that could happen. You're at peace with it's death. 

Could you relate to that?


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## 68097

hoopla said:


> I've been rereading this thread, and I have a question.
> 
> Your grandmother brings a cute cat in a box. It's intestines are hanging out... the theory is someone lit firecracks up it's butt. There's no evidence, but it seems probable.
> 
> So you go to the vet with her, and they say the surgery would be expensive with too many risks, so you have to put it down. Your grandmother is crying, and you feel like you should be crying too, but you can't. You feel heartless because you're not upset, but logically, that cat needed to be put asleep. It was the best thing that could happen. You're at peace with it's death.
> 
> Could you relate to that?


Nope. I would be a crying mess and then I would do everything in my power to find the a-holes that did that to the cat and beat the living hell out of them. In fact, I can't even re-read and comprehend what you said, or I'll become emotionally heightened and full of anger / misery / rage that anyone would do that to a poor, innocent animal.


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## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> Nope. I would be a crying mess and then I would do everything in my power to find the a-holes that did that to the cat and beat the living hell out of them. In fact, I can't even re-read and comprehend what you said, or I'll become emotionally heightened and full of anger / misery / rage that anyone would do that to a poor, innocent animal.


lol, I just focused on how horrible I felt for not being more emotional. And then I had to detach because that's who I was, so whatever. I just had that same pit of bad feeling for not showing the same level of pain she showed, and just felt super crap. 

I didn't even think in such terms, it was more like "Wow, so terrible it happened to that cat" but there was nothing i could do. It happened. I was just focusing on that cat, and we could do to help it, and that was the best solution. The cat would be relieved. No fear of an operation gone wrong. No worrying about how we'll pay for the operation. Peaceful, happy cat, and it was the natural course of action. I didn't see a reason to be upset, but felt, "if she feels that way, maaaybe I should?" But I couldn't, like at all.

I just can't seem to relate to a lot of what's been discussed in this thread, so I had to ask. 

Another question, do you get really upset when you see someone sitting all alone amongst a crowd?


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## 68097

Interacting you over the last few weeks, I've had my doubts that you're Fe/Ti, and not Ti/Fe. You seem way more detached and less inclined to self-censor than most ISFJs.



> Another question, do you get really upset when you see someone sitting all alone amongst a crowd?


No. Though I might feel bad if I think they're alone and not enjoying it.


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## Deadly Decorum

@angelcat was wondering if that's an strong Fe thing, so I asked.

For me it's the mere implication that people know how they feel, without asking that bothers me about said sentiment. Like ok they're alone, therefore they must be lonely? I feel the same way you do... I might go talk to them if they're truly upset, but only if I know they are.

I think this thread is pm wrapped up though- alittlebear is ENFJ. But if everyone wants to shift way off topic I don't mind.


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## Pressed Flowers

I'll respond to some of the other replies in a moment but just to address your questions, @hoopla , I basically agree with everything @angelcat has said. I can't say exactly how I would react with the cat - honestly if it's... if it's body was like that, I have a fear of blood, I might not even be at the vet at all - but... I know I wouldn't be not crying. I would be _weeping_. Of course it is best for the poor cat to just... pass, it's the best thing for it, but I would be so miserable that the world has conspired to end its life on this way. I would be very gentle, and spend time with it, but all the while I would weep because just... how terrible for the poor cat. 

It's probably a good thing I gave up on my childhood dream to be a veterinarian. 

I also wouldn't care if someone was sitting alone in a crowd unless they were visibly upset by that condition. Many people love to be alone, and enjoy that solitude. If anything I would be watching them and hoping no one will approach them, cringing when they do. It's so awkward when someone does something like grabs the intimate attention of someone who wants to be alone with their thoughts. 

I also agree with angelcat that you could be INTP or something. You actually sound quite a bit like my INTP friend, now that I think about it. Even when she's upset she still sounds clinical, and she would also not cry about the cat and such. 

I wouldn't feel guilty about these things, though. That's simply how you are. One should not feel guilty for not crying... and if one should, then I've got a lot of extra guilt in my life. I've been to at least ten funerals (I can count ten on my hand, but I'm fairly certain there's a few others I'm not recalling), and it's gotten to the point where I simply do not cry in the face of death. I feel mournful thoughts, I feel sad, somber, it's difficult for me to laugh, my heart goes out to the deceased and they're loved ones... but I no longer cry when my parents call and tell me someone has passed, and sometimes I don't even cry at funerals. We all cry at different things, and I simply don't think that one should feel guilty for what they do and don't cry about. That's just my little spiel though.


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## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> @alittlebear I never thought about how we focus so much on a particular murder case and ignore others until it was pointed out to me. When I witnessed 9/11, I wanted to do what I can to help prevent things like that from happening, to support the sufferers. I was super inspired by all those people making kits for victims. I just wanted to change and help the whole entire world. Same with Katrina. Instant reaction was to send a backpack of supplies to make an impact and difference on the world. I'd help build houses if I could have, but I was a little 11 yr old girl from Washington. That was out of my hands.
> 
> I think people refer to murders that have a huge impact on the entire world, that strike relevance to people. There are so many murder cases that happen every day that the whole bulk of the news would be about murder if that's what we choose to dwell on. I still think cases need recognition, but it makes sense to me. The Twin Towers has so much relevance to others, and affected so many people and made such a big scene that it would make sense that more people would be involved. It's not as obscure as a man murdering his wife in a small city few people know about. If the murder doesn't strike significance to others, making people spread the word or take a stand, it's not going to reach the news. Not that some murders are more important than others; it's just how I see it.


For me it's not that people are murdered every day... so much as it is that there are so many crises around the world where people are also killed, many times in bigger numbers than 9/11. Genocides happening now, wars that negative impact civilians, and just... terrible things. I don't know enough, and of course it might be best that we don't know about those things because then the United States would be pressured into taking a side in a country that has a delicate system that we don't understand, that we can't understand as outsiders... and while it's heartbreaking that these bad things, America can't go in and try to "save the day". We end up hurting more than we help when we do that, and so many of these countries do not want that. 

I used to see America as... a force for good in the world. I believed that we had the power, that we did essentially "rule the world" with our influence, and that we should just use that power for good. Step into countries. Solve international crises. Make the world a better place, even through force. But as I've gotten older (I act like I'm so old and wise, aw) that view has changed. I see how we can't just do that. People don't want our help, and we should not force ourselves on them, especially considering that we don't often help other countries for the purely altruistic reasons I believed we did as a child, and we often don't even help much at all. 

I don't know though. I need to do some research on these things, and figure out what the reality is of American occupation, try to discern the true nature of how America handles such things... but I haven't had the time yet. And I don't know where to begin, what sources I could trust..

Ack, that's babbley! Essentially I just think that it's sad how we get so upset over the deaths of Americans but don't feel the same heartbreak when someone outside our country is dead. (Although in my mind I can understand in a way that it may be for the best if we don't do as much international news reporting / sensational international reporting. I mean... think of the Spanish American War and the news' involvement with it.)

Also, that's just... amazingly sweet about how you wanted to physically help everyone. I feel a pull to help out where I can here - to go clean up a street (that's a thing here), to go volunteer with the homeless, to help with Special Olympics or tutor refugees or even just tutor my fellow students - but very rarely do I see news stories and physically want to go help. I hope everything's okay, but I usually recognize that I don't have the skills to help much. I just hope in my heart that everything gets better, which... admittedly isn't nearly enough, I don't think.


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## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Could be wrong, but I see Fe laced with a bit of Ni here. Mirrors are an analogy for how media influences other people, how media and social rules react or respond to each other.


Yeah, as I toyed that I thought "wow, this looks like a forced attempt at Ni". Honestly I used to have thoughts like that all the time... I do think the trauma hindered my Ni a bit, put me in an a little Fe/Se loop or in the grip or something. It used to be so much fun to think about things, piece together the world and its truths, but now I just avoid thinking because it tends to hurt. I can't even plan/write my story like my heart yearns to. 

I do have little Ni-esque thoughts like that a considerable bit, though. I suppose that counts as Ni- ness


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## Deadly Decorum

@alittlebear

what was terrible for the cat is people were insensitive enough to cause it injustice, but there was nothing I could do about it at the time. It passed, happened, so we had to focus on what we could do for that poor cat at the time. And it didn't suffer; it was at peace, and happy. Death is such a peaceful, tranquil concept, but that's also derailing from the topic because I can't get my train on the right track.

I've thought about INTP.... nah. Can't really relate to them, tbh. But 14 year old me would agree, lol. 

I cry sometimes. Not a robot lol! One particular instance was that runaway love song by mary j blinge, remember that? I knew the lyrics were not my situation, that they were separate, but I had also gone through hard times and began to cry. It really struck a chord with me, and eventually the song was on the radio and I told my mom and her current boyfriend the song made me cry, and they were like "...why wtf" and I couldn't respond. I felt stupid. 

I agree, no one should feel guilty, but it's kind of alienating to not cry and see others cry, as I know what they're expecting, and they usually react to it. I don't know why it really bothers them, as there's different ways to feel or show support. You're comforting though, thank you. Or should I thank Fe?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LavenderMoon said:


> alittlebear, if there was a reward for awesome personal threads made that influence everyone else to consider themselves again, you'd have a million of them. Seriously, I relate so much to what you guys are saying and it's confusing the crap out of me (only in the best way, though).
> 
> (Also, I have no idea how to do the mention thing. Technology hates me.)


Hoopla's reply should help you with that. Essentially you just use the "@" sign and type in the name if the person you wish to notify. It confused me a great deal too. I'm still figuring out how to work all the features on this site.

Aw, I'm sorry to confuse you! Hopefully you get it all sorted out. I'm glad it's helping you... sort of, at least. Maybe you should mention some of these things on your typing thread? Relating to a lot of our Fe things kind of suggests that... well, ISTJ might not be the right type for you. 

The only input I have on your type is that you mentioned (if I remember correctly? I've looked at quite a few typing threads the past few days, so forgive me if I'm wrong) that you related to Hermione from HP, and Hermione is the _archetypical_ STJ. Of course I know ISFJs who relate to her as well, but that is a pretty strong indicator that you could really in fact be more Te than Fe. 

But I don't know for sure. I would mention this on your topic and see what they might say. Good luck finding your true type! And thank you for your kind words about my thread.


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## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> what was terrible for the cat is people were insensitive enough to cause it injustice, but there was nothing I could do about it at the time. It passed, happened, so we had to focus on what we could do for that poor cat at the time. And it didn't suffer; it was at peace, and happy. Death is such a peaceful, tranquil concept, but that's also derailing from the topic because I can't get my train on the right track.
> 
> I've thought about INTP.... nah. Can't really relate to them, tbh. But 14 year old me would agree, lol.
> 
> I cry sometimes. Not a robot lol! One particular instance was that runaway love song by mary j blinge, remember that? I knew the lyrics were not my situation, that they were separate, but I had also gone through hard times and began to cry. It really struck a chord with me, and eventually the song was on the radio and I told my mom and her current boyfriend the song made me cry, and they were like "...why wtf" and I couldn't respond. I felt stupid.
> 
> I agree, no one should feel guilty, but it's kind of alienating to not cry and see others cry, as I know what they're expecting, and they usually react to it. I don't know why it really bothers them, as there's different ways to feel or show support. You're comforting though, thank you. Or should I thank Fe?


I feel the same way about death, in a sense... for me it's more that I have faith (that I developed... because so many people were dying around me as a child) that everyone will be okay when they die, and they're in a better place, so to me... it's like, yes it's sad that they're not here, and we miss them, but they're in a better place and isn't that the best thing?

But... You're still sounding so much like my INTP friend. She's a huge atheist (or maybe more agnostic, I don't know) and she also views death as tranquil, as peaceful. She cries though, sometimes frequently, and she can get upset because she just gets so much sadness and she doesn't know why, but she feels it and cries and it confuses her. 

And yeah, I get you for not knowing how to comfort someone. I feel bad leaving someone along when they cry, but I also recognize that sometimes that's the best thing to do when someone cries. My TJ friend and mother have a harder time understanding this. If I'm ever upset, they think I just need to talk about it with them, and personally feel victimized by my sadness or something until I cheer up... it's so silly to me, because obviously it has nothing to do with them, and if it's something they can't help me with (in these cases mostly it's when I'm crying from trauma, which... like no one can help me with that, really) and I don't wan to talk to them about it... like it's not because I don't appreciate them, it's just that doesn't help... I don't know, that's actually pretty backwards. You would expect the Fi-users to respect my space, and for me to want to talk about it... but with the trauma I think it's mostly that I get anxious/over flooded thoughts, and those are things that talking to TJ users doesn't help with (they just don't understand my feelings at all? or thoughts? or anything?)... and maybe they feel so Fi guilty that they feel the need to help me even though I tell them I don't want help. I don't know :/ 

And thank you for saying I am comforting. That's very kind  my ISTJ / ENFP friend said something similar yesterday, that she wishes she could comfort me like I am able to comfort her... That struck me as odd but very nice, because just knowing I'm able to help people feel better is one of the highest compliments to me. 

As for the Fe thing, should you thank me or my Fe... I have that debate all the time. Yes, such and such celebrity does this really culturally insensitive or selfish thing that really upsets people, but they're also an FP so shouldn't they get a break? I tend to give people a free pass due to their functions... But I don't know, are people still accountable for what they do based on their cognitive functions? Am I accountable for my niceness or is that just the way I was made, so I shouldn't be complimented for it? I know that's not what you were saying precisely, but I still wonder about it.


----------



## penny lane

I don't know if this points more to Fi or Fe but this has to do with one of the school shootings( the boy came from my hometown but it happened in another town.He had experienced bullying and bonded with another boy who had too. He ended up killing several students(at least some had been part of the bullying of the other boy I'm not sure if there were others who had not been involved).I recall at the time when they brought him into court someone told me they thought the boy looked dead that there was nothing in his eyes no show of remorse. I saw if far differently I saw a scared kid.I felt awful for the victims but I felt bad for him too. I don't know if that is Fi (having an opinion not everyone shared and not being influenced ,looking more at the individual) or Fe(feeling the other person's pain or taking it on in some way)

When it comes to comforting others I think it's a mix with me depending on the circumstances or even the person .I do well comforting children for example with others it a hit and a miss.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

penny lane said:


> If you mean the Judge Judy type of shows I know what you mean. I think seriously there are people who want to expose themselves like this? But I know people who love this kind off show it's like their guilt (or not so guilty) pleasure.
> 
> What I like about Criminal Minds well there are a few things actually.To start with I like not having to question the agents integrity they are flawed but not so much in question .I also like that the team is it's own family unit. That feeds the idealist in the sentimental side of me the other part of me likes watching them work and how the approach the job. The other part is how they handle the violence I can watch without being too squeamish.
> 
> I don't however have a problem with characters that are more in the grayish area. That happens even to the most heroic characters on Gotham I don't mind that I don't even mind the over the top elements of the show. How they show the violence is what gives me a love/hate feeling for the show. I'm sure this all plays into my type and if I'm off base about my type that's okay I'm looking forward to having some clarity on the subject.


Yep, those Judge Judy like shows! My grandfather watches a variety of them, so I lose track of their actual titles (he rarely watches Judge Judy, the actual show). I know they bring it on themselves, but... It's still frightful :/ I hope their future employers aren't ever watching. It's the same thing for shows like Dr. Phil... Honestly Dr. Phil just shames people so much in my opinion, like that's not what anyone should do, he feigns sympathy and impartiality but in truth he can be very overbearing in who he thinks is in the RIGHT, and he has no qualms in shaming someone. Ugh, it's so upsetting :/ I can deal with TV shows, made up stuff, but when it's reality it feel uncomfortable. (Although I must say that a lot of times when watching comedies [Parks and Rec, The Middle, Modern Family{, I just feel my heart sink sometimes. The things they do, it's so embarrassing!)

Aww... I've honestly never watched any criminal shows except briefly whenever my aunt wants me to or whatever, but it's good that people can get enjoyment out of them. I just... they're not for me. At all. Especially now that I'm starting to question the morality of the things on there, how the criminals are portrayed in cop shows and how certain people are dehumanized more than others. Sometimes my friends are prejudiced against people because they "saw something like that on a cop show"... No, you're just directly letting media negatively impact you and allowing yourself to dehumanize people, it's not that you have a right to feel that way, it's just you don't realize you've been slightly brainwashed. Ugh. Hopefully not everyone does that though. 

Oh and yeah, I love morally impure characters. I love evil characters. I love villains. Heck, I joke that Tom Riddle was the character I related to the most in the series (charming teachers and students and innocently asking deep questions that get to the heart of things? Relatable). Like I love the Game of Thrones / _A Song of Ice and Fire_ partially _because_ the morality is so fragmented. The characters are real, and flawed in realistic ways (which I can't say as easily for certain other fantasy books). I don't particularly like violence (or sex... I wish they had an edited version of something so my dad and I could watch Game of Thrones without feeling guilty), but I'm getting more adjusted to those things. 

I do hope you figure out your type though.  I think you will though, once you make the topic and all.


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## Pressed Flowers

penny lane said:


> I don't know if this points more to Fi or Fe but this has to do with one of the school shootings( the boy came from my hometown but it happened in another town.He had experienced bullying and bonded with another boy who had too. He ended up killing several students(at least some had been part of the bullying of the other boy I'm not sure if there were others who had not been involved).I recall at the time when they brought him into court someone told me they thought the boy looked dead that there was nothing in his eyes no show of remorse. I saw if far differently I saw a scared kid.I felt awful for the victims but I felt bad for him too. I don't know if that is Fi (having an opinion not everyone shared and not being influenced ,looking more at the individual) or Fe(feeling the other person's pain or taking it on in some way)
> 
> When it comes to comforting others I think it's a mix with me depending on the circumstances or even the person .I do well comforting children for example with others it a hit and a miss.


Oh wow... That's honestly a terrible situation. I can understand what you felt, though. I want to say it's Fe because I do that too... Whenever I watch trials, no matter how he joust the crime, I just want so badly for mercy to come to the offender and for them to just... not have to deal with the death penalty or life in prison or any of that. I feel bad for the family of the victims, and the victims themselves... but still, if people are acknowledging that what was done to them was wrong... That would be more than enough for me, for my abusers to be told they were wrong and made to come face to face with that reality. Just let me give a speech about my feelings and maybe slap them and then I think I would be okay. I know not everyone is as merciful and forgiving (I'm honestly not forgiving of my abusers, because they don't acknowledge what they've done is wrong, but anyway), and I don't shame the victim or the victim's family for feeling vindictive... But. 

But of course this is a very unpopular opinion. Everyone wants revenge! My mom especially (ISTJ) is vindictive, and speaks out loudly about how the people who do bad things need justice done to them. She dehumanizes the guilty party. I can't stand that. I don't care what anyone has done, they're still a person and deserve to be treated like it. And I'm not afraid to tell someone my feelings about that unless I don't know them very well and don't think I can afford a disagreement like that in our relationship.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay, now that we're on a new page... I do want to wrap up and say I'm ENFJ - since everyone here has agreed strongly on Fe-dom, and I think people mostly have said Ni-aux - but I have seen others disagree that I'm more Si, or that we just can't tell yet, and some people outside this thread have suggested that I actually use Fi. I still invite anyone who disagrees with the ENFJ typing to speak up about it. It's so important to me that I find my true type, but I can't do that if people who disagree with my typing stay silent. 

Thank you all for your time though, those who have commented, and for your typing suggestions. You have all helped me so much, and I really appreciate that.


----------



## penny lane

I'm glad this helped you confirm your type and I'm working on the questions so maybe I will have it up in a day or two.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> But... You're still sounding so much like my INTP friend. She's a huge atheist (or maybe more agnostic, I don't know) and she also views death as tranquil, as peaceful. She cries though, sometimes frequently, and she can get upset because she just gets so much sadness and she doesn't know why, but she feels it and cries and it confuses her.


Death used to terrify me as a child. I loved the idea of peace, tranquility, but considered the idea I'd be burning in hell. I also knew if we didn't go to hell we'd be in living a dark existence, but then I wondered if we would be aware of death at all. I wondered if all consciousness would cease to exist. But I mostly thought about Hell due to faith.

I realized as I started to move away from the church that the idea of death was comforting, so I latched onto it when I explored atheism. Atheism began to make sense, and it shifted me away from what I disliked about church. It gave me more confidence. The hypothesis that everything would be dark, and all we could see was a black abyss, was still on my mind but I ignored it in favor of the most logical conclusion. It seems most probable/likely, and it makes it easier for me to consider that possibility. I don't care what others believe tho.

So yeah maybe, but I guess there's some emotional basis behind that decision lol. It just makes me feel happiest, makes life easier, and seems more likely.





alittlebear said:


> My TJ friend and mother have a harder time understanding this. If I'm ever upset, they think I just need to talk about it with them, and personally feel victimized by my sadness or something until I cheer up... it's so silly to me, because obviously it has nothing to do with them, and if it's something they can't help me with (in these cases mostly it's when I'm crying from trauma, which... like no one can help me with that, really) and I don't wan to talk to them about it... like it's not because I don't appreciate them, it's just that doesn't help...


Maybe they felt rejected when you rejected their help? I'd have to be there or ask them since you never really know how someone feels. I do know that people's feelings aren't always hurt by the idea that you're thinking badly about them, but just because it hurt something on the inside. When that happens to me I can't always explain it.



alittlebear said:


> my ISTJ / ENFP friend said something similar yesterday, that she wishes she could comfort me like I am able to comfort her... That struck me as odd but very nice, because just knowing I'm able to help people feel better is one of the highest compliments to me.


Why is that odd?



alittlebear said:


> Yes, such and such celebrity does this really culturally insensitive or selfish thing that really upsets people, but they're also an FP so shouldn't they get a break?


When I was like 14 I would have probably said "who cares if this offends people". I never tried to offend anyone. That's the weird part. I just didn't see anything wrong with offensive content on TV. Then I was considering the sexism, racism, homophobia, and I'd think "should I really be watching this, it's a racist program" and realized I pm went against what I believed and was sacrificing things I enjoyed. Even though they were valid arguments I felt like I betrayed myself. I'm still trying to formulate my thoughts and piece something together that weaves the two concepts and considers both viewpoints, since ew racism, but it goes against freedom of expression. It's so conflicting.


----------



## LavenderMoon

alittlebear said:


> Hoopla's reply should help you with that. Essentially you just use the "@" sign and type in the name if the person you wish to notify. It confused me a great deal too. I'm still figuring out how to work all the features on this site.
> 
> Aw, I'm sorry to confuse you! Hopefully you get it all sorted out. I'm glad it's helping you... sort of, at least. Maybe you should mention some of these things on your typing thread? Relating to a lot of our Fe things kind of suggests that... well, ISTJ might not be the right type for you.
> 
> The only input I have on your type is that you mentioned (if I remember correctly? I've looked at quite a few typing threads the past few days, so forgive me if I'm wrong) that you related to Hermione from HP, and Hermione is the _archetypical_ STJ. Of course I know ISFJs who relate to her as well, but that is a pretty strong indicator that you could really in fact be more Te than Fe.
> 
> But I don't know for sure. I would mention this on your topic and see what they might say. Good luck finding your true type! And thank you for your kind words about my thread.


Thanks! hoopla's reply did help. I'm always so bad at learning how to use new sites! I usually look around for a FAQ or a guide for doing all of these different things, but I rarely find one.

Don't be sorry! It is confusing, but it's better to be confused and searching than ignorant. I think I will write a bit in my typing thread. And that was me, but it wasn't a general statement. It was that I relate to Hermione Granger when I'm the boss of other people or when I'm in charge of a group project, but not at any other time. Being in those situations seems to bring out an assertive side of me that I don't normally possess.

Thank you and you're welcome!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

penny lane said:


> I'm glad this helped you confirm your type and I'm working on the questions so maybe I will have it up in a day or two.


I see your thread there! I'll try to come and offer some of my terrible MBTI insights on you tomorrow if someone hasn't appropriately don't so yet. Thank you again


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Death used to terrify me as a child. I loved the idea of peace, tranquility, but considered the idea I'd be burning in hell. I also knew if we didn't go to hell we'd be in living a dark existence, but then I wondered if we would be aware of death at all. I wondered if all consciousness would cease to exist. But I mostly thought about Hell due to faith.
> 
> I realized as I started to move away from the church that the idea of death was comforting, so I latched onto it when I explored atheism. Atheism began to make sense, and it shifted me away from what I disliked about church. It gave me more confidence. The hypothesis that everything would be dark, and all we could see was a black abyss, was still on my mind but I ignored it in favor of the most logical conclusion. It seems most probable/likely, and it makes it easier for me to consider that possibility. I don't care what others believe tho.
> 
> So yeah maybe, but I guess there's some emotional basis behind that decision lol. It just makes me feel happiest, makes life easier, and seems more likely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they felt rejected when you rejected their help? I'd have to be there or ask them since you never really know how someone feels. I do know that people's feelings aren't always hurt by the idea that you're thinking badly about them, but just because it hurt something on the inside. When that happens to me I can't always explain it.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that odd?
> 
> 
> 
> When I was like 14 I would have probably said "who cares if this offends people". I never tried to offend anyone. That's the weird part. I just didn't see anything wrong with offensive content on TV. Then I was considering the sexism, racism, homophobia, and I'd think "should I really be watching this, it's a racist program" and realized I pm went against what I believed and was sacrificing things I enjoyed. Even though they were valid arguments I felt like I betrayed myself. I'm still trying to formulate my thoughts and piece something together that weaves the two concepts and considers both viewpoints, since ew racism, but it goes against freedom of expression. It's so conflicting.


That's an interesting way to look at death. For me I just can't imagine not being Christian - it only makes sense to me, that there's a God there watching over us, just... there... - but I have quite a few non-Christian friends and they often report the same thing, that not believing in God somehow helped them feel calmer. To each his or her own, I suppose. I still have the unorthodox Christian belief that one will go to heaven if they do good works and help the world more than they hurt it - if they live their lives with love rather than hate - and that one will only go to hell if... gosh if I know - that's rather for God to decide - but the thought of someone being to turned eternally for not accepting a specific belief blows my mind in a rather bad way. 

And yeah, unfortunately they probably see me as rejecting their kindness, and maybe that I'm rejecting them in return. Which of course isn't the case :/ 

For me, like... This makes me really vulnerable, but I cannot bear the thought of someone thinking badly of me. Of course I know they do - of course someone does, and naturally quite a few someones inevitably have a distinct distaste or even a hatred for me - but it still burns me on the inside to think that people look at me or think of me and dislike me. That probably factors into my Fe-dominance and social anxiety, though. 

Ack, and it's odd because I'm so inclined to think that I'm not good at comforting people, that I'm just annoying and a nuisance to others. It delights me when someone tells me otherwise, because, well... All I want to do is help people, you know? Make someone's life a little nicer, if only for a short and genuinely pleasant moment. It makes my day when I learn that I actually accomplish this for someone. 

And ooh, I have an interesting relationship with the concept political correctness and such. I'm naturally a very... liberal-minded person, especially in how I think everyone should be taken care of, socially, emotionally, financially... But during my middle school years I had a certain teacher who ridiculed anyone who believed in these weak ideas that I had, so I sort of turned on myself and convinced myself that protecting people from being offended was just a silly and stupid idea. On the inside of course I didn't believe that, and I would never go out of my way to offend anyone (ever), but my outward and academic philosophy was that people should, well... toughen up, because freedom of speech is important and it can only be maintained if we allow all forms of speech. Now I've more gone back to my old beliefs that while speech shouldn't be restricted, it should still be... kind. I'm honestly still figuring out my political beliefs, though.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LavenderMoon said:


> Thanks! hoopla's reply did help. I'm always so bad at learning how to use new sites! I usually look around for a FAQ or a guide for doing all of these different things, but I rarely find one.
> 
> Don't be sorry! It is confusing, but it's better to be confused and searching than ignorant. I think I will write a bit in my typing thread. And that was me, but it wasn't a general statement. It was that I relate to Hermione Granger when I'm the boss of other people or when I'm in charge of a group project, but not at any other time. Being in those situations seems to bring out an assertive side of me that I don't normally possess.
> 
> Thank you and you're welcome!


Hmm... hmm. That's interesting. It would seem from your relation to Hermione that you would be more of an ISTJ, but, I don't know. That's not what the words you've shared with me on your other topic tell me. I'll post a link to a test on your topic in just a second though, I find it fairly accurate.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Luke the Turner
I'm pretty sure you're vibe-ing me as Ti-dom was a little joke (I think so anyway, haha), but I would still be curious if you have any opinions on my type, if you get the chance to share. We've conversed a little bit before and I've seen you a little around this forum helping people see themselves, and I'm just wondering if you disagree any with me as an ENFJ. 

(I don't know why it's so hard for me to accept myself as an ENFJ when it seems everyone on this topic has agreed on that, but I still just want a little more external validation I guess. It's just so tricky to claim oneself as the type they've always dreamed of being.)


----------



## TheEpicPolymath

Yay!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TheEpicPolymath said:


> Yay!


Yay what? You just can't come onto my thread and give a happy exclamation without providing an explanation for that happy exclamation.


----------



## TheEpicPolymath

alittlebear said:


> Yay what? You just can't come onto my thread and give a happy exclamation without providing an explanation for that happy exclamation.


Calm down. Yay you finally found your type!  Too lazy to talk.


----------



## TheEpicPolymath

Ahh, I got it now! Is the girl in the pic you?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TheEpicPolymath said:


> Calm down. Yay you finally found your type!  Too lazy to talk.


(I was just kidding, sorry. I thought that was evident with the silly way that sentence sounded if one were to say it aloud.)

And thank you! I assumed that's what you were yay-ing about, but one can hardly be quite sure.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TheEpicPolymath said:


> Ahh, I got it now! Is the girl in the pic you?


Nope. I wish, haha, I'm nowhere near that pretty honestly, but she's just Mary from the show Reign. (Or the actress who plays Mary, but... you know.)


----------



## Kurt Wagner

alittlebear said:


> @Luke the Turner
> I'm pretty sure you're vibe-ing me as Ti-dom was a little joke (I think so anyway, haha), but I would still be curious if you have any opinions on my type, if you get the chance to share. We've conversed a little bit before and I've seen you a little around this forum helping people see themselves, and I'm just wondering if you disagree any with me as an ENFJ.
> 
> (I don't know why it's so hard for me to accept myself as an ENFJ when it seems everyone on this topic has agreed on that, but I still just want a little more external validation I guess. It's just so tricky to claim oneself as the type they've always dreamed of being.)


You remembered me. *.*

Watch this and tell me your opinion on it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydHqujanqLs


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Luke the Turner said:


> You remembered me. *.*
> 
> Watch this and tell me your opinion on it.
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydHqujanqLs


Of course! Thank you for dropping by. 

I didn't think I would have so many thoughts on the video, but I actually did. Putting my frustration with the blonde guy aside (I've seen his behavior on another forum and... yeah, his insensitivity and other character traits, the way he deals with other people, that really annoys me... also, as many others here have said, he's pretty subjective and biased), I got a bit out of this video. 

First - I didn't immediately relate to anything in this video. I just... didn't. I don't go out of my way to become my environment, but I also definitely don't... depersonalize my environment to focus on my... inner bodily self. I definitely personalize external things to focus on my inner thoughts - all the time - but I... I would never try to feel my own body internally. I actually go out of my way to not feel my body. I made a topic about that recently, actually. It just creeps me out, period. 

I'm terrible at dodgeball. Or rather, I'm good at dodgeball because I'm an unassuming participant who not many people want to hit because, hey, I'm not really a threat. I developed a strategy in dodgeball when I was younger (my mom is a PE teacher, I don't know, I took PE pretty seriously even as a little kid) to survive dodgeball, and I just stuck with it my entire life. I stay in the back. I gather balls and distribute them to those individuals who are better than me at throwing (or those poor players who obviously want a ball, but grow frustrated when they can't come into contact with one. Of course my Fe has to take care of everyone on the team even if it's a detriment to our silly game. Who knows, that kid who can't find the ball who I give it to might actually get someone out. We can only hope). When the time comes, when I, the unassuming little girl who the opposing team is now regretting not hitting earlier, finally become the last person on the court (it happened quite frequently, believe it or not), I continue to deftly dodge the balls they throw at me until I have gathered all the balls to my side, at which point I very timidly position myself, and make my best strike at the final members of the opposing team. 

I should probably add that I cannot think of one instance where this strategy allowed me to win the game. Maybe once or twice, but I can't recall it. Regardless, it always makes my team and sometimes the opposing team even remark about how adorable I am, and at least my team goes down with a little more honor than they might have. 

I'm not completely restrained to this strategy, though. I love dodgeball, and it would get boring if I did the same exact thing every time. I use that as a guideline, but I mix it up according to my team's needs. If no one else is going to run up and grab the balls before the opposing team does, well gosh, I guess I'll have to go risk momentary pain to go do it. If no one is striking, goodness knows - and everyone knows - that I'm terrible at throwing anything, but I will try my best to serve my team however I'm needed. You have to adapt, and... I mean, I'm not the best dodgeball player, but I always tried to do what I could to fit the situation. 

That said, I'm terrible at video games. My mom is a PE teacher and throughout my childhood I was involved in a variety of team sports, but I _hate_ sports, and always have. I hate exercising. I hate movement. Ugh. I like walking - walking is lovely - but running? Purposefully exhausting myself? It's exhilarating in the moment, and I love the sense of pride afterwards, but in the moment it's torture. It's good torture, in a way, but... I don't know. Honestly I haven't exerted myself in a while. (Partially because I've lost some usage of my legs lately, but... That's another story altogether.)

As for the Si stuff... I hope I don't sound like I'm too not trying to be Si, but I honestly couldn't relate at all? I don't care about inner peace. I could never think of myself as the only person and everything else as unreal.... like, what? I know some people do that, that a lot of people consider that, how maybe they're the only person in the world and nothing is real or whatever.... but that's unthinkable to me. The world exists whether or not I am totally in terms with it, and I do my best to... not get lost in my head or in "peaceful" things, because that'll distract me from coming to terms with the world and doing what I canto improve it. If... that makes sense. 

I find it hilarious that he mentioned ASMR. I have an INFP friend who _loves_ it. She has to listen to ASMR to get to sleep. She showed me a video, and... Oh my gosh, it just freaks me out. Why are you talking like that? Stop. Sigh. Why are you touching that? It creeps me out. Even the thing he did with the glass and his hand freaked me out. Just... I can't identify why it unsettles me so much, but it does. There's nothing relaxing about that for me. I don't get to sleep by calming my body down - that freaks me out way more than it should - but rather by engaging my mind in something (usually just thinking about a certain scene from my story in my head, adding a new twist or something in my head with it). 

Also, that video with the semi trucks also really freaked me out. How is that calming? I mean I knew throughout the video obviously that he would be okay, obviously, but it still freaked me out. I can't imagine being so powerless and vulnerable, and I find nothing appealing about that. 

Maybe I'm actually sounding more Si the more I talk about these things... I don't know. But I definitely was very creeped out by Si in this video. (Don't get me wrong - it sounds kind of lovely for those who use Si - but for me that's... that's just so unsettling.

Edit: oh, but I was confused about the difference between flowing with the environment and being one with the environment. I feel like I do what it takes to adapt to the external world, but I also try to... blend in to the environment? I can feel very uncomfortable when I'm in an environment where I don't belong (whether it's because I'm wearing the wrong clothes, I look weird, or whatever.) I want to match the environment, you know? I feel uncomfortable when I'm in a forest sometimes because everything is so lovely and beautiful, and, as a human, I feel that I don't have a right to belong there. But at the same time... like I do _want_ to blend in and participate in the environment, even though I feel I can't achieve it. Like I want to be like Pocahontas, you know? I want to be able to just "fit in" with my external surroundings, just... fit. I want to duck behind a tree when it's appropriate and then sprint across a field when I must. That sounds fun, exhilarating. 

Sorry, that's just more babbling but it gives you an idea of how I might be an Si user (maybe)

Another edit: okay, so I watched a few minutes/seconds of some ASMR videos (still couldn't do one all the way through) and... It's not _that_ bad. It's not relaxing to me - I watched a video where a girl just kind of played with a giant gummy bear and I was like "okay, but aren't you going to eat it?" - but I mean, the sounds are interesting and such. I could enjoy maybe, like a nature documentary with sounds, something natural... but seeing a human girl in her normal suburban house play with a gummy bear, rubbing her hands all over it.... eeeeep. That's uncomfortable for me. I hate hands, one, I think humans are weird and don't like seeing them doing random things in general (I don't like shirts with people's faces on them, I dislike photographs... I mean I love humans in the real world, but seeing a video of them freaks me out sometimes, especially like in ASMR when the way her body interacts with an object is such a big deal?), but... I don't know. 

Just wanted to add some thoughts about ASMR, because I think I was a little unfair to it before. It makes me very uncomfortable, but it's not so so bad, and I can see in a way why people love it. It's just not for me. Give me a documentary about a deer family instead.

Yet another edit: ok so I just looked at the Se video ********* or whatever his YouTube name is linked, and yeah, I can't say it didn't make me very uncomfortable. (It's a video of a guy ad he's like... using a parachute going down a mountain or something.) the thought is terrifying to me because I don't necessarily enjoy things like that - I mean I enjoy kayaking and hiking and stuff but not necessarily dangerous, high-risk stuff - and also... it's so scary! Sigh. He's brave, I guess? Very brave, honestly, and I kind of wish I could do that only I... can't. It made me feel quite a bit better than the semi truck video because at least he had the tools to be okay - he had a parachute, those things on his feet, you know, I feel like he could find a way to survive if something happened - but still the way he skimmed over the rocky mountain area made me scared. Not too scared because like with the semi truck video he obviously made it out okay, but... Still. 

Alright. That's all my comments, I think. Thank you again for helping me.


----------



## Kurt Wagner

I think ESFJ is pretty neat.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Luke the Turner said:


> I think ESFJ is pretty neat.


As a typing for me?  Of course I'm open to that, but I would like to know where you're seeing it if you are (since I didn't relate to the Si in the video).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also @TheEpicPolymath , can you agree with ENFJ? I've seen you on other typing threads and I know we've seen each other around, I'm just curious if you can see it as well. (I mean I would assume that you do since you didn't object... but. I am just curious.)


----------



## Kurt Wagner

alittlebear said:


> Of course! Thank you for dropping by.
> 
> I didn't think I would have so many thoughts on the video, but I actually did. Putting my frustration with the blonde guy aside (I've seen his behavior on another forum and... yeah, his insensitivity and other character traits, the way he deals with other people, that really annoys me... also, as many others here have said, he's pretty subjective and biased), I got a bit out of this video.


ESTPs have a problem with being unconciously rude. I found some regret immediately what they say, even if they don't like to admit it. I don't know if that's the case, though.

BTW I knew this would be your exact reaction. XD



> First - I didn't immediately relate to anything in this video. I just... didn't. I don't go out of my way to become my environment, but I also definitely don't... depersonalize my environment to focus on my... inner bodily self. I definitely personalize external things to focus on my inner thoughts - all the time - but I... I would never try to feel my own body internally. I actually go out of my way to not feel my body. I made a topic about that recently, actually. It just creeps me out, period.


Yeah, I saw that. Do you think that if you use Si, it might actually make it worse for you?



> I'm terrible at dodgeball. Or rather, I'm good at dodgeball because I'm an unassuming participant who not many people want to hit because, hey, I'm not really a threat. I developed a strategy in dodgeball when I was younger (my mom is a PE teacher, I don't know, I took PE pretty seriously even as a little kid) to survive dodgeball, and I just stuck with it my entire life. I stay in the back. I gather balls and distribute them to those individuals who are better than me at throwing (or those poor players who obviously want a ball, but grow frustrated when they can't come into contact with one. Of course my Fe has to take care of everyone on the team even if it's a detriment to our silly game. Who knows, that kid who can't find the ball who I give it to might actually get someone out. We can only hope). When the time comes, when I, the unassuming little girl who the opposing team is now regretting not hitting earlier, finally become the last person on the court (it happened quite frequently, believe it or not), I continue to deftly dodge the balls they throw at me until I have gathered all the balls to my side, at which point I very timidly position myself, and make my best strike at the final members of the opposing team.
> 
> I should probably add that I cannot think of one instance where this strategy allowed me to win the game. Maybe once or twice, but I can't recall it. Regardless, it always makes my team and sometimes the opposing team even remark about how adorable I am, and at least my team goes down with a little more honor than they might have.
> 
> I'm not completely restrained to this strategy, though. I love dodgeball, and it would get boring if I did the same exact thing every time. I use that as a guideline, but I mix it up according to my team's needs. If no one else is going to run up and grab the balls before the opposing team does, well gosh, I guess I'll have to go risk momentary pain to go do it. If no one is striking, goodness knows - and everyone knows - that I'm terrible at throwing anything, but I will try my best to serve my team however I'm needed. You have to adapt, and... I mean, I'm not the best dodgeball player, but I always tried to do what I could to fit the situation.


My mother is an ESFJ and loved dodgeball too. I think that's how an ESFJ might do it. Sticking to the same strategy is an SJ thing. Not bad in my opinion. Routine can be pleasant.



> That said, I'm terrible at video games. My mom is a PE teacher and throughout my childhood I was involved in a variety of team sports, but I _hate_ sports, and always have. I hate exercising. I hate movement. Ugh. I like walking - walking is lovely - but running? Purposefully exhausting myself? It's exhilarating in the moment, and I love the sense of pride afterwards, but in the moment it's torture. It's good torture, in a way, but... I don't know. Honestly I haven't exerted myself in a while. (Partially because I've lost some usage of my legs lately, but... That's another story altogether.)


I think that's where the inner comfort vs. limit-pushing comes to play. You like walking but not exhausting yourself, not very different from me. Or any Si-user.



> As for the Si stuff... I hope I don't sound like I'm too not trying to be Si, but I honestly couldn't relate at all? I don't care about inner peace. I could never think of myself as the only person and everything else as unreal.... like, what? I know some people do that, that a lot of people consider that, how maybe they're the only person in the world and nothing is real or whatever.... but that's unthinkable to me. The world exists whether or not I am totally in terms with it, and I do my best to... not get lost in my head or in "peaceful" things, because that'll distract me from coming to terms with the world and doing what I canto improve it. If... that makes sense.


I think you took it too literally. Or not too literally. When he said inner peace he meant inner comfort, inner pleasure. When you feel your body like that perfectly working machine. You don't forget about the external world, but you don't feel it the same way that you feel your body. An Se-user feels like they're part of their environment. Tarantino is ESTP. You know how people practically fly when they jump on Kill Bill? It isn't hard to find young ESTPs trying to climb walls like that. They're connected to what's around them the same way you're emotionally connected to who's around you (if that's a good way to put it).



> I find it hilarious that he mentioned ASMR. I have an INFP friend who _loves_ it. She has to listen to ASMR to get to sleep. She showed me a video, and... Oh my gosh, it just freaks me out. Why are you talking like that? Stop. Sigh. Why are you touching that? It creeps me out. Even the thing he did with the glass and his hand freaked me out. Just... I can't identify why it unsettles me so much, but it does. There's nothing relaxing about that for me. I don't get to sleep by calming my body down - that freaks me out way more than it should - but rather by engaging my mind in something (usually just thinking about a certain scene from my story in my head, adding a new twist or something in my head with it).


I don't like those videos either but I can understand why some do. I also think it works better if you just listen to it.



> Also, that video with the semi trucks also really freaked me out. How is that calming? I mean I knew throughout the video obviously that he would be okay, obviously, but it still freaked me out. I can't imagine being so powerless and vulnerable, and I find nothing appealing about that.


I think it's meant to show how much the guy owns his own body. Like a capsule. Steady, calm, and functioning like a clockwork. 



> Edit: oh, but I was confused about the difference between flowing with the environment and being one with the environment. I feel like I do what it takes to adapt to the external world, but I also try to... blend in to the environment? I can feel very uncomfortable
> when I'm in an environment where I don't belong (whether it's because I'm wearing the wrong clothes, I look weird, or whatever.) I want to match the environment, you know? I feel uncomfortable when I'm in a forest sometimes because everything is so lovely and beautiful, and, as a human, I feel that I don't have a right to belong there. But at the same time... like I do _want_ to blend in and participate in the environment, even though I feel I can't achieve it. Like I want to be like Pocahontas, you know? I want to be able to just "fit in" with my external surroundings, just... fit. I want to duck behind a tree when it's appropriate and then sprint across a field when I must. That sounds fun, exhilarating.
> 
> Sorry, that's just more babbling but it gives you an idea of how I might be an Si user (maybe)


It makes sense. If you do use Si, then you are very aware of your body, and how it constrasts with the environment (not belonging in the forest (I think an Se user might feel the life on the forest first of anything else, and nevermind how he fits into it, he is part of it)). 

I don't know if that sounds weird or biased, but I tried to explain the best way I can. I usually can express myself well with the written word but even then it sounds fuzzy to other people, I've found.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

No, it doesn't sound weird. It's refreshing to have someone at least consider Si for me. Just a few things, though... (And I do fear that I'm pushing back against Si, which is why I'm so persistent on evaluating it. I don't want to misidentify myself because of some internal prejudice I might have.)

Towards the top about inner peace... No, I mean that I don't like having inner peace with my body. It's weird to me. I don't like thinking about my body period, so I don't give a care about whether or not I'm "at peace" with it... I don't want my body to feel like a working machine because... ech, I would never think of my body in those terms. It's just this thing that I do crap with. 

Also... Although I sometimes dislike pushing my body (okay most times I dislike pushing my body), I definitely _can_ push my body. I was on the swim team for two years, on the high school varsity team, and... I did really well there. The coaches were amazed at how far I could push my body. I was great at endurance because I could forget myself and just... go, you know? I could sprint the extra few seconds I needed to get to the end of the pool and I could also endure through whenever we did long distance swims (I was my team's best long distance swimmer, although I hated it). I related a bit to what he said about Se, and pushing itself... I mean I don't do it often, but when I'm like racing someone and that adrenaline kicks in and I know that I need to do something to accomplish something... I do it, you know? I need that Fe pull, that social reason to do it (I dragged myself through two miserable years of excelling on the high school swim team to make my very athletic parents proud of me), but I can definitely push myself in the moment. 

Also, yeah. That video with the trucks still made me undeniably uncomfortable. Sorry if I'm sounding stubborn (I am honestly), but there's no way that I could have Si - especially as he described it - as my aux. maybe if I was an INFP or something, or an ENFP, and had lower Si, maybe... But as my second strongest function? At least something here would have to click, and it plainly doesn't. 

I'm so sorry. I'm sounding so stubborn, again, because I am, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. I do think I'm going to have to linger here longer now though, until we figure this out. (Feel free to keep explaining though! I'm not getting it and seeing it in myself how you're describing it now, but like maybe I could. I don't know.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla I just saw you on another thread talking to someone about how you saw them as ESFJ. You recognized how they were balking a bit at the thought of being an Si-aux. Obviously I very openly have that disbelief of being an Si user, but do you think it is the same case with me? You mentioned something about how one thing I said sounded "Ni," but on your first post here you said you didn't have an opinion one Pi function over another for me. Do you agree with what Luke the Turner is saying, or no? I feel like if I am an ESFJ, you could help me accept it more and get past the stereotypical views of an ESFJ. (Honestly that's part of the problem. If I use Si I would feel like I would have to go back to reevaluating whether I use Fi or Fe or what, because I can't be an ESFJ... It's not that ESFJs are bad, it's just that I don't relate to the sensory parts of their description (I relate to the harmony parts I mean, but) and I just... I don't act like that? I act like ESFJs because the Fe but I don't act like ESFJs in their sensory way. Of course that's a silly thing to go off of because the descriptions are biased and sensors aren't portrayed well, but... And I mean it's the same with Socionics, which gives a more unbiased approach to Sensors. I simply can't relate to the perceiving functions and the ESFJ/ESFj description.)


----------



## Kurt Wagner

Why is your username "_a little bear"?

_ @alittlebear Again, I think we're looking too much at the physical explanation of Si. I found the emotional side of it is much more easy to understand, especially because it's such a sentimental function.

I'll clear some points first though


alittlebear said:


> Towards the top about inner peace... No, I mean that I don't like having inner peace with my body. It's weird to me. I don't like thinking about my body period, so I don't give a care about whether or not I'm "at peace" with it... I don't want my body to feel like a working machine because... ech, I would never think of my body in those terms. It's just this thing that I do crap with.


I know that in your case is different. You did say you don't like relaxing, cause it's kinda worse. Just because you use Si it doesn't mean you like to meditate and zen and shit (to semi-quote him), it means that you are more aware of what's going on with it, whether you want it or not. In any case, you _do_ want to feel in harmony with your body. Maybe not relaxed or at peace like a lot of people want to, but I bet you want to stop being so conscious about how uncomfortable it is. I can actually relate to almost everything you said here, especially about the thing I do crap with.



> Also... Although I sometimes dislike pushing my body (okay most times I dislike pushing my body), I definitely _can_ push my body. I was on the swim team for two years, on the high school varsity team, and... I did really well there. The coaches were amazed at how far I could push my body. I was great at endurance because I could forget myself and just... go, you know? I could sprint the extra few seconds I needed to get to the end of the pool and I could also endure through whenever we did long distance swims (I was my team's best long distance swimmer, although I hated it). I related a bit to what he said about Se, and pushing itself... I mean I don't do it often, but when I'm like racing someone and that adrenaline kicks in and I know that I need to do something to accomplish something... I do it, you know? I need that Fe pull, that social reason to do it (I dragged myself through two miserable years of excelling on the high school swim team to make my very athletic parents proud of me), but I can definitely push myself in the moment.


You use Se in any way. Everyone does. Especially when they try, even more if it's an extroverted function (I think). But have you noticed _how often_ you use your past to make your point? I do this every time.

Which takes me to the emotional side of it:

When you use Si you put a brand on everything, with the help of Ne. When you remember that object or person or whatever, you remember the brand as well. If it's a song you heard a long time ago, you'll probably feel the same that you felt the last time you heard it, or the first time you heard.

You'll remember things not by what they were but by how you once felt about them. You'll remember a certain event but also what you thought when that certain event happened, how you felt when that certain event happened, you'll remember the tone of voice that person used with that other person that time, you'll remember how your friend smiled at that certain day a couple of years ago even if you can't even remember her face, you'll remember why you felt like doing things, how you felt when you got that news, you'll remember what you thought when answering that question, you'll remember how you felt when that certain person died, you'll *feel *it _all over again_. 

Hell, I remember how I thought my sister was tall when I was 4. I remember how I felt when my dog died. It's crazy.

That's how I see Si.

Otherwise I might be completely wrong in this.


----------



## Kurt Wagner

alittlebear said:


> I just saw you on another thread talking to someone about how you saw them as ESFJ. You recognized how they were balking a bit at the thought of being an Si-aux. Obviously I very openly have that disbelief of being an Si user, but do you think it is the same case with me? You mentioned something about how one thing I said sounded "Ni," but on your first post here you said you didn't have an opinion one Pi function over another for me. Do you agree with what Luke the Turner is saying, or no? I feel like if I am an ESFJ, you could help me accept it more and get past the stereotypical views of an ESFJ. (Honestly that's part of the problem. If I use Si I would feel like I would have to go back to reevaluating whether I use Fi or Fe or what, because I can't be an ESFJ... It's not that ESFJs are bad, it's just that I don't relate to the sensory parts of their description (I relate to the harmony parts I mean, but) and I just... I don't act like that? I act like ESFJs because the Fe but I don't act like ESFJs in their sensory way. Of course that's a silly thing to go off of because the descriptions are biased and sensors aren't portrayed well, but... And I mean it's the same with Socionics, which gives a more unbiased approach to Sensors. I simply can't relate to the perceiving functions and the ESFJ/ESFj description.)


I think you can relate a lot to the sensory parts of an ESFJ. My mother always talks about the past. Always. The other day we were sitting next to each other, really quiet, and I noticed that my mind was flying high in Ne land, that I did this every time I grew too quiet, so I asked her if she was thinking of the past.

_"How did you know?"_

The past of a high Si-user goes with them through life. Side by side, hand in hand. She was remembering my uncle, something he said 20 years ago.

She always does that, by the way.

EDIT: BTW, I'm such a nasty asshole, when she asked me that I pulled of a Tom Riddle and said with _that_ smirk, _"Intuition"_. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Luke the Turner said:


> Why is your username "_a little bear"?
> 
> _ @alittlebear Again, I think we're looking too much at the physical explanation of Si. I found the emotional side of it is much more easy to understand, especially because it's such a sentimental function.
> 
> I'll clear some points first though
> 
> 
> I know that in your case is different. You did say you don't like relaxing, cause it's kinda worse. Just because you use Si it doesn't mean you like to meditate and zen and shit (to semi-quote him), it means that you are more aware of what's going on with it, whether you want it or not. In any case, you _do_ want to feel in harmony with your body. Maybe not relaxed or at peace like a lot people want to, but I bet you want to stop being so conscious about how uncomfortable it is. I can actually relate to almost everything you said here, especially about the thing I do crap with.
> 
> 
> 
> You use Se in any way. Everyone does. Especially when they try, even more if it's an extroverted function (I think). But have you noticed _how much_ you use your past to make your point? I do this every time.
> 
> Which takes me to the emotional side of it:
> 
> When you use Si you put a brand on everything, with the help of Ne. When you remember that object or person or whatever, you remember the brand as well. If it's a song you heard a long time ago, you'll probably feel the same that you felt the last time you heard it, or the first time you heard.
> 
> You'll remember things not by what they were but by how you once felt about them. You'll remember a certain event but also what you thought when that certain event happened, how you felt when that certain event happened, you'll remember the tone of voice that person used with that other person that time, you'll remember how your friend smiled at that certain day a couple of years ago even if you can't even remember her face, you'll remember why you felt like doing things, how you felt when you got that news, you'll remember what you thought when answering that question, you'll remember how you felt when that certain person died, you'll *feel *it _all over again_.
> 
> Hell, I remember how I thought my sister was tall when I was 4. I remember how I felt when my dog died. It's crazy.
> 
> That's how I see Si.
> 
> Otherwise I might be completely wrong in this.


Thank you for your explanation. I do appreciate it, and I think you are explaining very well how you experience Si. 

But the thing still is... I don't feel it. I can recall, say, when my grandmother died, and I can tell you what we did that day, but I don't feel sad talking about. I don't get a memory recall, I don't recall how I felt (maybe that's just me not being Fi though), I just... I can tell you what happened. And I don't even get "memories" visually, as I've heard it works with Si. I more remember some things about the last - I know we went to the beach when my grandmother died, I know we made sand angels, I remember everyone was there because my cousins drove down to meet us - but I don't have any emotional attachment to that. It happened. It's in the past. I don't feel it anymore. 

In general, that's how I've dealt with memories. It's in the past. And it's actually very painful to think about the past, because it's never going to happen again (not to be super _1984_-ish, but sometimes it doesn't even feel like the past is real somehow? I dunno, it's hard to explain), and it's better to focus on the future. Design a future where happiness will find me. Don't look back. Never look back, whether on happy times or sad times, because it's not going to happen again and nostalgia is just crappy and useless. 

One example is, like, holidays. I read one Si user say that they loved holidays, because they could think about all the things they did before and do them again. Again, I don't do that. What's the use of thinking of times gone and passed? We need to make new happy moments, make life beautiful now and in this moment. I do anything to have a good time with my family on holidays, and don't just do something because it's routine. It's all about that social feeling, not about tradition for me. 

Of course it's different because I literally have PTSD, which, according to my annoying and insensitive Lit teacher who likes to romanticize trauma (ugh), PTSD is being stuck in the past, not being able to move forward, being stuck in one moment. And... let me tell you, I am that. I am traumatized. There are... there are moments where... I can't escape it. I mean... I mean, I mean obviously, I have PTSD, so... (Sorry, this is shaky, but only because.... like it's uncomfortable to even describe because like I'm starting to have a flashback now and... I try to block it out.)

Part of why I don't think I'm Ni though is because I have never gotten locked up in the past though. I've witnessed some prett terrible things growing up. I was bullied constantly throughout my childhood. So many members of my family died since I was three years old. I have witnessed too many familial fights, too much disharmony, too much instability and anger. But it doesn't drag me back. Once it's over with, it's gone, poof. Time for the next moment. Yes, Grandma just died, but now we have to take care of our great aunt and make sure she's okay. Yes, this year sucked, but it's time to look ahead and figure out how I can change my behavior to make it not like last year. I don't get stuck in a rut... except when I am literally traumatized. And I'm pretty sure that even INxJs get trauma... It doesn't discriminate. 

And, on the song thing - I also don't do that. Obviously I do it with certain songs from my childhood - as you say, everyone experiences every function, and that might be where I use Si - but I'm more and mostly inclined to listen to a song and make connections with it. This song reminds me of my character. This song really fits my story. Oh, but it also fits my story this way, if I manipulate it... I know Ne does this too, but the thing is I never get bored of a song. I will go back into it, digging deeper, looking at it differently, and I plug the song into my internal world of connections and ideas. I actually feel extremely exposed when I talk about the internal connections I make to say a song and a story, because while my connections make perfect sense to me, I also understand that to other people they tend to make no sense (and I just feel so... vulnerable, like when I share those things I'm giving a piece of my soul even though... obviously I'm not.)

Do you think I'm not an Fe-dom though? You didn't comment when I mentioned how I can't see myself as having aux Si. 

I have to say I don't have any counter for how I relate things to my past. I honestly just don't know how not to? Honestly. And I haven't seen anyone deemed Ni not relate to their past when they say things. I mean, it's just the way we all talk about things, we have to relate it to our past. If you were to ask me about my future plans in life you would get a different perspective about things, but since you're asking about me and I want you to type me from how I am in real life as opposed to how I visualize myself I want to give you examples from my behavior. I'm pretty sure it would be responsible to do anything different.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Luke the Turner said:


> I think you can relate a lot to the sensory parts of an ESFJ. My mother always talks about the past. Always. The other day we were sitting next to each other, really quiet, and I noticed that my mind was flying high in Ne land, that I did this every time I grew too quiet, so I asked her if she was thinking of the past.
> 
> _"How did you know?"_
> 
> The past of a high Si-user goes with them through life. Side by side, hand in hand. She was remembering my uncle, something he said 20 years ago.
> 
> She always does that, by the way.
> 
> EDIT: BTW, I'm such a nasty asshole, when she asked me that I pulled of a Tom Riddle and said with _that_ smirk, _"Intuition"_. :laughing:


Of course I am (and I don't say this sarcastically) being the stubborn one here, but I do wonder if you're not projecting yourself and your mother on me? It seems a little like you are. 

Because I'm about to tell you again - that's not actually how I am. I don't think about my past... like, ever. Of course I get trauma lol, I get terrible flashbacks and I cry and... do the things that one would expect a traumatized teenage girl to do, think the things one would expect a traumatized little girl to do, but other than that I am always thinking about the future. I need to do this so I can do this so I can do this. When am I going to do this? I'll do it in a second. Honestly in my head I am almost always planning time (time is always, always in my mind - I can't turn off my worries/thoughts about time) and contemplating something... well, deeper? Not deeper as in better or something, but I just have bigger things to think about like the nature of humanity and cruelty and such rather than thinking about the past. 

What I'm saying is that even though you just said that I am like your mother because I think about the past like she does, and it guides you through life, I don't think about the past and the past doesn't guide me through life. My understanding of human nature and this knowledge of the universe around me (which I have plugged into my brain over time, memory free, just knowledge I've pieced together in an intricate web) guides me through life. 

So, yeah... Again, I'm not seeing it. I think you're misunderstanding how my brain works. 

(Thank you still for helping me though. I know I'm sounding frustrated, but honestly I am very appreciative that you're willing to work through this with me on this, even though I am being a stubborn little thing.)


----------



## Kurt Wagner

Now you sound like ENFJ.

EDIT: It was only because you kept mentioning your past to make your points and that that's _very_ common among Si-users. But ENFJs can do that too.

the only communication barrier was created because of those goddamn physical explanations. I think even for us it's hard to get. I knew that if you understood how Si works in your mind, then it would all be clearer.

Now I think you're an Ni user. Go figure.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh, and about my username - I just quickly chose it. I wanted to get a quick typing one day, so I made a pm account with the first thing I could think of, and it was "alittlebear" because my favorite fictional character (possibly of all time) is "a little bear". Honestly it's really silly, and I want to change it to something to do with trees (or something).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh, and just as an additional note, I just realized the thing I said about the past not seeming real is actually a dissociative PTSD symptom. That might not have much to do with my type.


----------



## Darkbloom

Agree with @LavenderMoon completely,both topics and expressiveness are extremely Fe,and looking for the nicest possible room and making video and yourself in it look good seems ENFJ-ish too


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> For what it's worth, you remind me of my best friend who is an ENFJ! He can also be a bit on the quiet side, but he is all about getting out there and helping others. Even without that comparison, I see the Fe. You may feel awkward and anxious at times, but you are very much into community and being a supportive friend, sister, daughter. I especially liked when you talked about the girl scouts. Very calm and kind disposition


Thank you for your confirmation as well! It's good to know I seem like others who use Fe, particularly other ENFJs. Very comforting  

Also, yeah, I don't know why people see Fe-doms as some of the louder extroverts? A lot of times using Fe means knowing when to be quiet and when to be loud, and it imagine quite a few Fe-doms use their quiet-ness and at least feign being "shy" when it is socially appropriate for them to. 

Nevertheless, thank you for your brief analysis and comparison, and also for your kind comments


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LavenderMoon said:


> Not sure how much this means since I'm so new to typing and everything, but you seem exactly like how I imagine an Fe-dom would be. Like angelcat said, you're very expressive when you talk. Plus, the subjects that you talk about are very Fe-being part of a community, wanting to lead others with the aim of helping them (with the Girl Scouts), being involved in groups and wanting to be involved in groups. Yeah, I would never type you as anything but Fe-dom.
> 
> Also, your video was really well done. I would never be able to be as calm and coherent as you were.


Thank you too! That's wonderful to me that I seem like an Fe-dom, I've just been so worried that I didn't at all and you all are really easing my fears. Also, thank you for your comments on my video! I'm glad I didn't seem as awkward as I was somewhat sure I would seem. I'm glad I seemed calm and coherent  Although honestly, I'm sure you could seem the same way! I never thought anyone would ever characterize me that way, I'm sure it would be quite the same if you tried to make a video.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Agree with @LavenderMoon completely,both topics and expressiveness are extremely Fe,and looking for the nicest possible room and making video and yourself in it look good seems ENFJ-ish too


I actually went out of my way to put on the dress and (terribly done, but) makeup and such, I was just in my pajamas reading _Hamlet_ otherwise  But yeah, I can't imagine just doing a halfhearted video on the spot in my pjs or something. Presentation is really important, like even when I did casual videos for school I was very much concerned with making sure my hair was nice, I was wearing an appropriate outfit, etc.


----------



## CupcakesRDaBestBruv

alittlebear said:


> @_CupcakesRDaBestBruv_ , I would be very interested in your opinion of my type once you get the chance. You're one of the more consistent people who says I have an Fi vibe, and I'm curious if you'll keep that thought after looking into my questionnaire and such. (Don't feel rushed though please, or obliged to say Fe because everyone else agrees on that. I'm really curious in your honest opinion.)


Oh no, no, that's not the case at all. It was your avatar of the medieval lady, that was all.
No, I mean, I read your questionnaire post and I can actually identify with a lot of traits of yours when I am in social situations.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

CupcakesRDaBestBruv said:


> Oh no, no, that's not the case at all. It was your avatar of the medieval lady, that was all.
> No, I mean, I read your questionnaire post and I can actually identify with a lot of traits of yours when I am in social situations.


Oh! Alright. Thank you so much for clarifying  I definitely took that little Dom Function thread a little too seriously when I started out here, haha. But it's always good to know that other ENFJs can relate to the things I say.


----------



## WhatIsLoveMachine

Yo, so I defiantly don't think you are an ENFJ.

All the real world ENFJs I know are terrible at working out the intricacies of anything in general. To the point of appearing much less intelligent than they really are at times.

You seem to be constantly relating some theory to a different theory to another theory which is an Ne thing to do and the fact that you compulsively (and I mean that in a nice way since I appreciate immediate responses) respond to everyone and do not put people on hold for long periods of times like three of my XNFJ and two XNTJ friends. Instead you are like my ESFJ sister who always responds thoroughly and immediately.

I think the reason people have been typing you as intuitive is that there is a bias that sensors can't also be as interested in ideas or abstract concepts like MBTI. I mean Ne is a ESFJs 3rd function. 

In fact all personality types run into a problem when they are stuck between their 1st and/or 3rd function and usually can get out by using their 2nd function. I see you you trying to relate theories and possibilities Ne and the best way for you to determine is through actual real life specific examples (Si your 2nd function) by seeing in person ESFJs and ENFJs in he real world.

I feel like an ENFJ would be so general and dippity that it seems like what they are talking about has no actual specific substance but more of a conceptual internal idea that could end up being so devoid of anything that it can be pretty much meaningless. With you it is definitely trying to find the nitty gritty details or specifics Si and relating it to the theory via Ne.

The fact that the conversation I have seen between you and others on this thread doesn't build on itself like with an Ni user and instead keeps seeking out constant possibilities (Ne) to the point of running in circles is defiantly a fault of Ne-Si being int the top 4 functions (with yours truly also being guilty of this).

Although I just had a really rare strong hunch that came out of nowhere for answering this one. Maybe it was my subconscious Ni popping out of nowhere.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

WhatIsLoveMachine said:


> Yo, so I defiantly don't think you are an ENFJ.
> 
> All the real world ENFJs I know are terrible at working out the intricacies of anything in general. To the point of appearing much less intelligent than they really are at times.
> 
> You seem to be constantly relating some theory to a different theory to another theory which is an Ne thing to do and the fact that you compulsively (and I mean that in a nice way since I appreciate immediate responses) respond to everyone and do not put people on hold for long periods of times like three of my XNFJ and two XNTJ friends. Instead you are like my ESFJ sister who always responds thoroughly and immediately.
> 
> I think the reason people have been typing you as intuitive is that there is a bias that sensors can't also be as interested in ideas or abstract concepts like MBTI. I mean Ne is a ESFJs 3rd function.
> 
> In fact all personality types run into a problem when they are stuck between their 1st and/or 3rd function and usually can get out by using their 2nd function. I see you you trying to relate theories and possibilities Ne and the best way for you to determine is through actual real life specific examples (Si your 2nd function) by seeing in person ESFJs and ENFJs in he real world.
> 
> I feel like an ENFJ would be so general and dippity that it seems like what they are talking about has no actual specific substance but more of a conceptual internal idea that could end up being so devoid of anything that it can be pretty much meaningless. With you it is definitely trying to find the nitty gritty details or specifics Si and relating it to the theory via Ne.
> 
> The fact that the conversation I have seen between you and others on this thread doesn't build on itself like with an Ni user and instead keeps seeking out constant possibilities (Ne) to the point of running in circles is defiantly a fault of Ne-Si being int the top 4 functions (with yours truly also being guilty of this).
> 
> Although I just had a really rare strong hunch that came out of nowhere for answering this one. Maybe it was my subconscious Ni popping out of nowhere.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I appreciate your input, but I've actually put away discussion of my type. This is an old thread. It was bumped up recently for a late reply, but, as you can tell from the last few pages, I am pretty settled on ENFJ. 

I understand your concerns, but... I do use Ni. I can see it in myself in a lot of ways, and I'm settled into knowing I use it to the point where I'm not questioning it. A variety of users who I know to be respectable and knowledgable about MBTI have come and confirmed this, several times... as I'm sure you can see from the thread. 

I don't mean to be rude - I do appreciate your time, and thank you for considering me - but, as I don't utilize Ne, I'm not going to run in circles because one person has said I'm definitely not ENFJ. I hope you don't take this as offense, it's just that I'm done considering this at this time, particularly since I am convinced of my own Ni and most users have supported the assertion that I have Ni.


----------



## CupcakesRDaBestBruv

alittlebear said:


> Oh! Alright. Thank you so much for clarifying  I definitely took that little Dom Function thread a little too seriously when I started out here, haha. But it's always good to know that other ENFJs can relate to the things I say.


Oki doki loki!


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## Pressed Flowers

A bit in spite of what I said earlier, I am planning on making another topic when I hit a considerable milestone in posts. I've been around a little bit now, and I'm curious if anyone has noticed things about me that are typical of ENFJ or different from what would expect of an ENFJ. I am especially curious about @hoopla 's opinion of me, as she's been something of a "false Ni claimer buster" lately, but I can wait to hear her thoughts on me if she is too busy at the moment.

More of a muse than anything. I recognize that I will seem somewhat hypocritical when I make my new post, so I wanted to at least have some prior explanation for my contradictory action to come.


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## 68097

*laughs*

You delight me. But you do remind me terribly of myself sometimes. So much indecision as to your correct typing.

Whether that indicates Ne or not, I'm not sure -- but in me, it was Ne. "What if I haven't considered ALL the possibilities?!"


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## Pressed Flowers

Sorry, I'm replying on Tapatalk (technology isn't working for me lately :/) (that's also why it might take me a day to like my responses here - I haven't quite figured out that mechanism on the app yet)

Perhaps it's that. I am a *bit* settled on ENFJ, but I would be willing to listen if a knowledgable user wished to contradict that claim. I've seen threads where a user comes back to this forum to reconsider their type, see if people have new input after knowing them for a while, and I wanted to attempt that. 

I am settled on Fe, if nothing else. It's still hard for me to grasp that I am an Fe-dom - I feel so incompetent socially - but it is very true that I am a "people-pleaser," and that I do classically Fe things (we've already discussed this here already, but just to remind, I value every person equally, I am constantly concerned with people's opinions of me, I define myself in relation to others, I am very aware of social structures, I view myself through the eyes of others...) 

I'm also coming to terms with my extroversion. It's a really rough time for me lately, a sad anniversary this month, and when I'm alone I just find that I am... troubled... but when I am with others that makes it all go away for a little while. I've been seeking the company of others lately in a lightly obsessive way I never recognized in myself previously. 

I'm also okay with the Ni. I don't value all possibilities equally. Everything has to have a meaning for me, and I assign meanings personally. I can be intense because I personally KNOW how things are, I know the truth as I see it, and I often find myself moderating this intensity so I don't come off as being the arrogant, pretentious person I might be on the inside. I also just like to soak up information, and wait for the truth to come to me (for example this is hurting me in my literature class presently... We've read eight great books of literature in a very short period of time, and I know I'm going to have to return to the texts and browse through them again to gain total comprehension... but this isn't what my professor wants unfortunately, he wants us to grasp the texts in their entirety immediately, and have brilliant insights immediately, which... I think I can have brilliant insights, but it takes a whole for me to process and come to them). 

That said, I'm just wondering about Ni-aux because... it is quite a coveted function (and ENFJ as a type is often coveted), and I want to be sure that I give ample chance for it to be disputed. I don't want to be deluded into thinking I'm something I'm not, particularly in the eyes of others. If that makes sense. 


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## Pressed Flowers

Oh, but thank you for your kind words as well  I do appreciate them. 


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## idoh

alittlebear said:


> Oh, but thank you for your kind words as well  I do appreciate them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


here's what helped me decide on introvert/extrovert. everyone can be social and talkative when they are with friends, but it's how you are with strangers that matter. when you meet new people, are you more reserved and restrained or is it easy for you to communicate? if you were dropped off at your cousin's baby shower would you go around and talk to all the guests there without trouble or stick shyly to your family/social circle?

I know an INFJ and he seems really extroverted sometimes, but for some reason I don't think I'd mistake him for an extrovert, he's still serious when you meet him and seems to hold back a little more


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## Pressed Flowers

idoh said:


> here's what helped me decide on introvert/extrovert. everyone can be social and talkative when they are with friends, but it's how you are with strangers that matter. when you meet new people, are you more reserved and restrained or is it easy for you to communicate? if you were dropped off at your cousin's baby shower would you go around and talk to all the guests there without trouble or stick shyly to your family/social circle?
> 
> I know an INFJ and he seems really extroverted sometimes, but for some reason I don't think I'd mistake him for an extrovert, he's still serious when you meet him and seems to hold back a little more


Well, I'm pretty confident I'm not an INFJ, but...

I'm not really reserved at all in conversation. As long as someone wants to talk to me, I will talk to them, and I will talk to them very openly, even (and somewhat especially) if I don't know them. I'm very friendly. 

The only thing is that I am very hesitant to talk when I feel I am not wanted. This, I think, is my Fe paired with my social anxiety. 

At a baby shower, I would be hesitant to even talk to my family because honestly they don't see me as an equal, they see me as a little naive foolish stupid girl and I have a hard time asserting myself as worthy to speak with them. This is why, when at my cousin's baby shower a month ago, I was very quiet. 

But I did speak a lot with, say, my cousin, because I love her and she is something of like a sister to me. I also made some jokes to her... convenient Diane, who I hadn't met before, because he's out of family politics and saw me as a college freshman, not as the daughter of the family stiff. 

I also spoke with my cousin's fiance's mother, and I hadn't met her before. I'm friendly like that. I talk to whoever I can and I always love it, so long as I'm not annoying them terribly. 


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## Pressed Flowers

sorry, Tapatalk messed me up and I don't know how to edit here but I meant "convenient fiancé," not "convenient Diane"


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## Schizoid

ENFJ sounds right  Not sure why, but I've always felt like we have very similar thinking style. Whenever you post something on here, I felt like I can easily understand what you are saying and I relate a lot with your thinking style. Both INFJ and ENFJ share the same functions, so perhaps this explains why I find our thinking style so similar. 

And I don't think INFJ though. The difference between INFJ and ENFJ is how one gains energy. 

As an INFJ there are times when I wonder I could be ENFJ too, because I am very people-oriented and I have this deep need to form connections with people all the time. 

But what makes me realize I am INFJ and not ENFJ though is usually after a tired day at work, I just want to go home and and be left alone and I don't want to socialize with anybody including my close friends. I think ENFJs would seek out their close friends in this situation, I read from somewhere before that ENFJs doesn't like being alone for too long because they will start developing dark thoughts. 


And also as an INFJ if I am feeling stressed, I would start immersing myself a lot in the external world. I would engage in activities such as travelling and sightseeing, writing, listening to music, playing the piano, singing, drawing etc, or I would start going around socialising with people and helping people because helping people with their problems helped me to forget my own troubles. When under stress, I basically start turning into an extrovert and I become much more active in the external world. Sometimes, I also have this tendency to make impulsive decisions when under stress without thinking about the long-term consequences, like there was once when my job really stresses me out and I ended up quitting the job without giving notice.
I think ENFJs would probably handle stress in a different way?


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## Dangerose

I'm not sure if you use Ni or Si: I'm not the best person to judge since my understanding of Ni is pretty much 'not-Si'. I've been watching your posts to see if I can identify ways our cognition is different, since we're both Fe-doms and cement my understanding of the functions)
I remember on another thread you were talking about 'golden ages' and how you don't really like that idea . . . it was interesting because I never would have thought of that as a negative, for me a 'golden age' . . . I don't know, I'm always thinking in terms like that; I love the idea that there was one point of history that had mastery over a certain art or something...obviously not every Si user is going to think like that, but I thought it was an interesting difference.
I was trying to explain something to my INTJ mother yesterday: that one of the reasons I liked Harry Potter was the feeling of continuity, that the Marauders studied under the same tree as Harry, Ron, and Hermione, that it was like all these memories and ghosts were being enshrined in the castle. I really couldn't communicate my point to her, she kept saying like, "Did they even know it was the same tree? It is just a building, it's not remembering anything, everything is different from one generation to another." Again, I could have just explaining myself badly, but I've noticed a trend that Si-users will connect, or at least understand, this sort of thing, whereas Ni-users will not. In Harry Potter, my mother's wanting to talk more about the archetypical hero's journey, the plot, she will literally never let go of the way in the 6th movie they had Dumbledore rescuing Harry when it was supposed to be Harry rescuing Dumbledore, a reversal of roles. Which to me . . . like, it bothers me a little and I get why I'm supposed to care, but naturally I care more about the eternal, unchanging world they inhabit, and the everyday events.

Sorry, I'm really tired, I haven't slept for like two days, I have a feeling my example was supposed to illustrate some point about Si and Ni but I've kinda lost where I was going with it. Anyways, I feel like Si and Ni have about no way of communicating, it makes it tricky. 

How do you perceive your use of Ni?


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## Pressed Flowers

Thank you both for responding! I'm going to have to hold back from replying until I get out if class in four hours. But I will hopefully be able to respond / answer your comments / questions soon, today if not tomorrow (I got two hours of sleep last night, so I may have to rest a little before I can be coherent again. We'll have to see) 


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## Pressed Flowers

Schizoid said:


> ENFJ sounds right  Not sure why, but I've always felt like we have very similar thinking style. Whenever you post something on here, I felt like I can easily understand what you are saying and I relate a lot with your thinking style. Both INFJ and ENFJ share the same functions, so perhaps this explains why I find our thinking style so similar.
> 
> And I don't think INFJ though. The difference between INFJ and ENFJ is how one gains energy.
> 
> As an INFJ there are times when I wonder I could be ENFJ too, because I am very people-oriented and I have this deep need to form connections with people all the time.
> 
> But what makes me realize I am INFJ and not ENFJ though is usually after a tired day at work, I just want to go home and and be left alone and I don't want to socialize with anybody including my close friends. I think ENFJs would seek out their close friends in this situation, I read from somewhere before that ENFJs doesn't like being alone for too long because they will start developing dark thoughts.
> 
> 
> And also as an INFJ if I am feeling stressed, I would start immersing myself a lot in the external world. I would engage in activities such as travelling and sightseeing, writing, listening to music, playing the piano, singing, drawing etc, or I would start going around socialising with people and helping people because helping people with their problems helped me to forget my own troubles. When under stress, I basically start turning into an extrovert and I become much more active in the external world. Sometimes, I also have this tendency to make impulsive decisions when under stress without thinking about the long-term consequences, like there was once when my job really stresses me out and I ended up quitting the job without giving notice.
> I think ENFJs would probably handle stress in a different way?


This is where I may come across as introverted (I won't say INFJ because I still can't buy dominant Ni for myself... but introverted).

I had this thing all through high school where I would go home and crash. All day - ten hours, gosh - I would be around people. And when I'm around people, I'm constantly trying to please them. Even when they aren't even aware of me I try to please them. I spend my time adjusting myself so that I am non-obtrusive to people at the store, people in the classroom, the teacher... I might not even talk, but I am constantly aware of those around me and how they percieve me. And at the end of the day, I always find that I am quite exhausted. I tend to get grouchy, go upstairs, have to listen to music / read / research / do something other than interact face-to-face with people.

Now, it's different in college, particularly now. I want alone time so that I can, say, respond to forums and look through Tumblr without my RL friends feelings ignored... but I like it when I'm with people, I'm finding. 

Okay. So this semester I've started doing "study sessions" with one of my friends before our three-hour long class. I love it. Or... I do love it and I don't love it. I don't love it because I don't think well in a group. I can't figure out a play if you tell me about it, I need to read about it and figure it out through my own methods before we meet up and discuss it. In that way, it's not productive. However, it is productive in that we can share ideas, and... I don't know, it's fun to just be friendly and focused on something. I'm actually considering taking the same class as her next semester, even though my advisor isn't advising it, just so we can do "study groups" like this again.

In a similar way, I have an inability to do homework with another person. I just won't get it. I can _teach_ someone what I know after I know it - this is actually the best way for me to cement my knowledge - but I can't... learn it from someone on the fly (especially not a student, who could be teaching me wrong for all I know). 

Like, so this week I have been working on my research paper (just turned it in -- that's the reason I only got ~ two hours of sleep last night). On Monday night, my friend (who is definitely not a History major, not in the class) and I went up to a study room to get stuff done. I didn't think it would work out, but actually it was great. I got to read, and we were both working on stuff so we only talked to each other when we wanted to share something. Sometimes I would stop and try to explain to her something (on Monday night it was just _how sad _ this historic couple was) and, even though she actually didn't enjoy my doing that very much (though of course she pretended to, as she's a very kind ISFJ) it helped me to just discuss my feelings about what I was reading.

Last night, however, everything was due the next day. I needed to be left alone. While I babbled to her about some of the funnier stuff in my paper, I actually found myself _leaving_ her presence to just go outside and figure out what I was doing.

(That's another thing. I am a very private thinker. At home, I can't stand for someone to even be sleeping in the same room as me if I'm reading / thinking / writing. It disrupts my thoughts, I think because their emotions distract me from my own thoughts and tug at them. It's not as big of a deal at school now because I get my homework done when I'm out of my dorm, but I think that this factored into my frustration last night.)

But I also need to be around people. I can't stand being around people. Lately all I've had is trauma thoughts swirling in my head, but they dissolve whenever I talk to someone. I've almost been seeking out people to talk to, going to see my poor professors more than usual, going out to eat, going online, just trying to communicate with people so my head won't be so... sad, I guess, melancholy. And I guess that's escaping stress through communication? A lot of times though I do it online, that's how I got through high school (listening to music/pacing to get rid of stress, and texting my friends and such when I was at home). 

Basically... when I'm stressed about school, I need to... talk it out, laugh it out, give the appearance of it being okay, be reassured by someone who sees through my confident crap... but then I need to disconnect and focus on me to actually get it done. And just in general, I deal with stress through distraction of I guess physical things (listening to music [although I listen to music only to think about music, it's weird], pacing, etc.) and communication. 

(Sorry this post is all over the place... hopefully it makes sense, maybe I should have waited to sleep but I should keep on my homework and get some of these replies done.) 

Thank you for your response, again, though! Sorry it's so long and jambled, but I appreciate you dropping by and giving your input.


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## Pressed Flowers

Oh, and I'm also not even sure if I would develop "dark thoughts" if I was alone. I'm kind of never alone, because I'm one of those people who has social media with me at almost all times. Even when I was a kid (my mom didn't let me outside much and I couldn't interact with my peers like at all after 2:30 pm on weekdays, so I think this could be a way of expressing extroversion) I got addicted to those silly virtual games. I got really sad if I couldn't go on Club Penguin or something, you know? I mean I guess introverts do that too, get addicted to games and such, but for me I couldn't even get addicted to virtual games, it always had to be a game where I could actively talk to people and communicate.


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## Dangerose

Little Bear, I think what is dominant Fe/inferior Ti; for me it is very similar. I need to be truly alone to think, for me it is really obvious that I have inferior Ti (more than having dominant Fe) because it's such a _process_ to think properly. Can I hear someone opening and shutting the door? Not good enough. Is the car in front of me driving too close? Nope, now I can't think. Not that I can't figure anything out without total solitude, but to 'truly think' I must retire to my metaphorical thinking cave.

I've doubted Dom-Fe in the past because I'll get wearied of people or want to be alone . . . but part of that, I've decided, is really Fe, because I'm worrying so much about the people and trying to navigate these waters, plus I always feel somewhat inadequate in social situations. But I think I really am Fe dominant, even if the function is a little warped I guess. I'll feel, almost panicky or actually panicky, if I don't have a computer or something, I really need to feel like there is an open, potential connection with other people. While Internet communication doesn't feel quite real to me, if I can see little green dots by my friend's names on Facebook, I feel way better than if I can't. Though I'm sure that happens with introverts too. IDK. 

(Sorry if I sound like I'm just talking about myself, my Si is hoping you'll take my experiences and apply them to yourself for comparison.)

I was going to add before that your Fe seems way...nicer and less judgy than mine. I don't know if ENFJs are 'less judgy' than ESFJs, according to stereotypes they are, but I'm pretty specific about what I expect from the world (one of the reasons I thought/still kinda think I might be Fi but...I'm 91% certain it's Fe) and am as interested in implementing morality (not to sound creepy, which that did I know) as making sure everyone feels good. Again, not really sure how the functions would line up with this one, but from what I have seen here your Fe is a little more 'feel-good' and mine more 'tough-love'.


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## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> I'm not sure if you use Ni or Si: I'm not the best person to judge since my understanding of Ni is pretty much 'not-Si'. I've been watching your posts to see if I can identify ways our cognition is different, since we're both Fe-doms and cement my understanding of the functions)
> I remember on another thread you were talking about 'golden ages' and how you don't really like that idea . . . it was interesting because I never would have thought of that as a negative, for me a 'golden age' . . . I don't know, I'm always thinking in terms like that; I love the idea that there was one point of history that had mastery over a certain art or something...obviously not every Si user is going to think like that, but I thought it was an interesting difference.
> I was trying to explain something to my INTJ mother yesterday: that one of the reasons I liked Harry Potter was the feeling of continuity, that the Marauders studied under the same tree as Harry, Ron, and Hermione, that it was like all these memories and ghosts were being enshrined in the castle. I really couldn't communicate my point to her, she kept saying like, "Did they even know it was the same tree? It is just a building, it's not remembering anything, everything is different from one generation to another." Again, I could have just explaining myself badly, but I've noticed a trend that Si-users will connect, or at least understand, this sort of thing, whereas Ni-users will not. In Harry Potter, my mother's wanting to talk more about the archetypical hero's journey, the plot, she will literally never let go of the way in the 6th movie they had Dumbledore rescuing Harry when it was supposed to be Harry rescuing Dumbledore, a reversal of roles. Which to me . . . like, it bothers me a little and I get why I'm supposed to care, but naturally I care more about the eternal, unchanging world they inhabit, and the everyday events.
> 
> Sorry, I'm really tired, I haven't slept for like two days, I have a feeling my example was supposed to illustrate some point about Si and Ni but I've kinda lost where I was going with it. Anyways, I feel like Si and Ni have about no way of communicating, it makes it tricky.
> 
> How do you perceive your use of Ni?


I've been trying to think of how to describe how I think I percieve my use of Ni, but... again, my head isn't really all here right now. (Like, even more than it would usually not be here as an Fe-dom...?)

For me, Ni would describe that... thing in my head, that thing that soaks up everything until it just naturally settles itself into making sense in my head. Ever since I learned about cell communication (microbiology) I have been amazed, because... that's how I see my brain. It's all closed up, absorbing (not neccesarily a nucleus thing but that's what my brain does), figuring it out, sort of a jumbled mess, but when I need to pull something out it's able to all come together and synthesize the idea/concept/information I need. Maybe it doesn't make sense with the nucleus communication model, but... that's how it makes sense to me, that's how I would describe my thought process and such. (I've never heard Ni described like that, but that's what I do.)

And okay, my thoughts aren't working too well right now (I guess I should say that _sometimes_ my brain is able to synthesize it all together. Or rather, soemtimes not. Gahhh.) so I'm going to just jolt down some things that I see as Ni about myself. I understand that these might not be Ni, and I am fully open to correction, but this is what right now I sort of see as my Ni

- I have an excellent track of time. I know how to manipulate time like crazy. My Si mom doesn't get it at all. 

- I don't need to write things down for a schedule, because my brain is always aware of what needs to be done, what I'm going to do next, what I will be doing after that... It's kind of stressful, but that's how it is. Like as soon as I wake up in the morning, my first thought is never "oh wow, what a nice dream," it's always, "oh crap, test in five days."

- A big part of my life is understanding the world and other people. That's why I read. That's why I like to go places I haven't been. That's why I love school. That's (partially) why I'm signed up for a History and English double major. I know everyone does this, or I think everyone kind of does this, but for me it's a real motivator, like I consciously seek these things out

- only... it takes a while for me to figure the world out. Sometimes I'll have to read a Greek tragedy, sleep on it, and listen to five random songs before I suddenly understand (and sort of in a *flash* of comprehension I guess) the concept of fate, and how it relates to our life today as well as to a series of other works in literature. And when I make that realization... it doesn't just go away, in favor of a new lens the next day. When I adopt a viewpoint, I keep it until I discover that one is more true.

- I think I know the truth. About everything. Or rather, I know I don't know the truth, but I also feel like I have a better idea of the truth than a lot of other people (particularly other college students) and I can be very (inwardly, not outwardly) dismissive of people. It's actually really pretentious, and prideful, and I know I should stop, but... it's hard.

And here's some things from @angelcat 's posts on Ni / ENFJs that I remember relating to ...

- I found myself looking this morning at the post comparing ENFPs and ENFJs (obviously not my problem, but I was looking up type comparison stuff and there it was). One example was, an ENFP can go to the store and buy everything but what they were looking for and be okay, while the ENFJ will not stop searching until they find what they're looking for. This is... sort of so me (the ENFJ). It's hard to be this way, admittedly, because it's wasteful to be picky and my mom doesn't understand it, but...
Like a few months ago I was looking to buy a Vera Bradley purse for my backpack. I didn't know what color I wanted it to be, but I knew I wanted a Vera Bradley purse because I had seen how it looked when other people wore one, I wanted to have that style, and I had already done a benefit analysis on it and decided that one would be the best for me. When we went to the store and saw other purses, my mom was all over them (she's _always_ looking for a new purse, honestly..) but I wouldn't even look until we got to a store carrying Vera Bradley (and thankfully enough, I had just gotten money from my aunt with specific instructions to "spend on myself" so I didn't feel too guilty when I bought that ridiculously priced bag). And I was happy, because I had gotten precisely what I wanted. 
Long example, but example of how that's totally me.

- Things have to have a meaning
The post about how Ni hates it when their suffering doesn't have meaning... yeah. Sort of my problem right now. I'm hurting inside, but it's just like, crap, there's no use for it other than to be not useful and it's really annoying, I just try to shake it off.

- I set super specific goals
This was a problem for me (and I have an ISTP friend who felt the same problem) because growing up I always wanted to write a book at least by the time I turned an adult, and... nah. That didn't happen. It's probably for the best - I need to be mature to write a book, and I don't think I am now - but it still broke my heart. Because that's something I'll never get.
A more intense example is... I always wanted to be director of this camp I've been going to since freshman year for Girl Scouts. I kept aiming towards it. But when I applied... I didn't get it. Ugh. It was so stupid, and one of my best friends got director and she didn't even see it as that big of a deal or anything, but for me it was like... that was a part of my future I had foreseen that I didn't have anymore. And it... just sucked. I wanted it so badly to not be that way, but it was, and there was nothing I could do about it :/

- Perhaps most importantly... I remember it was mentioned one time that NFJs could sort of see who you were, like they thought they knew everyone, but they're unable to describe it... That describes me so well. I know it's perhaps a bit pretentious, but I honestly feel like I have an idea of who people are. I can't put it into words except simplistically, "you're swirls, you're a smile, you're a lamb, you're a lamb but on the deep deep inside you have a little bit of alligator in you" (not a likely combination probably but that's sort of how I end up describing people if I just went straight from my image of them) but I just... I feel like I know who they are, even if I just glimpse them for a moment. It sounds really weird to talk about I guess, but it's so natural for me. This is along the lines of what I mentioned when I said I "see people's souls" on the other thread.

- oh, and I get super stressed when my vision isn't coming towards me. I just went through my first year of college, but I'm not seeing how any of this is helping my dreams so I feel like I actually haven't done anything at all. It's tough ;|

I'll respond to the Harry Potter stuff in a minute, I'll post this before I lose it (also it's just a long enough post as it is)


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## Darkbloom

Just confirming Fe dom typing for you 

And Club Penguin XD,I loved it so much, totally forgot about it!


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## 68097

Gurl, you are so Fe/Ni, you need to stop questioning it. You translate people into symbols? (You are a lamb… a swirl… an alligator?) Ni.

Regarding Fe-dom… I can’t relate. But I do have a Fe/Ni friend and you sound a lot like her in terms of being constantly aware of yourself in proximity to everyone else in the room. It exhausts her, but she also feels … off and incomplete if she cannot interact with people.

Me? Introvert. We got six inches of rain this week, which forced me to cancel two days worth of plans with two separate friends, and my only thought was… relief. Why? I’m happiest alone. I like to interact with people, and I particularly like to discuss things with people, but … on my terms. Once in awhile. I’m much happier being in Si/Ti and using my Fe for hours at a time wears me out. 

SJs and having specific visions? LOL, no. 

Here’s what my childhood was like:
I wanna be a princess.
I wanna be a lawyer.
I wanna be a dinosaur expert.
I wanna be a pastor.
Ooh, I wanna be a novelist! 

As an adult:
I wanna be a novelist.
If that doesn’t work, though, I can be … a hoop dance instructor … a receptionist… an interior designer …


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## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Little Bear, I think what is dominant Fe/inferior Ti; for me it is very similar. I need to be truly alone to think, for me it is really obvious that I have inferior Ti (more than having dominant Fe) because it's such a _process_ to think properly. Can I hear someone opening and shutting the door? Not good enough. Is the car in front of me driving too close? Nope, now I can't think. Not that I can't figure anything out without total solitude, but to 'truly think' I must retire to my metaphorical thinking cave.
> 
> I've doubted Dom-Fe in the past because I'll get wearied of people or want to be alone . . . but part of that, I've decided, is really Fe, because I'm worrying so much about the people and trying to navigate these waters, plus I always feel somewhat inadequate in social situations. But I think I really am Fe dominant, even if the function is a little warped I guess. I'll feel, almost panicky or actually panicky, if I don't have a computer or something, I really need to feel like there is an open, potential connection with other people. While Internet communication doesn't feel quite real to me, if I can see little green dots by my friend's names on Facebook, I feel way better than if I can't. Though I'm sure that happens with introverts too. IDK.
> 
> (Sorry if I sound like I'm just talking about myself, my Si is hoping you'll take my experiences and apply them to yourself for comparison.)
> 
> I was going to add before that your Fe seems way...nicer and less judgy than mine. I don't know if ENFJs are 'less judgy' than ESFJs, according to stereotypes they are, but I'm pretty specific about what I expect from the world (one of the reasons I thought/still kinda think I might be Fi but...I'm 91% certain it's Fe) and am as interested in implementing morality (not to sound creepy, which that did I know) as making sure everyone feels good. Again, not really sure how the functions would line up with this one, but from what I have seen here your Fe is a little more 'feel-good' and mine more 'tough-love'.


No, it's totally okay! I like hearing that I'm like other Fe-doms, it helps ease my confusion and all 

And yeah, I think people really underestimate how exhausting Fe can be. They say that ENxPs are the most introverted extroverts, and they probably are, but ExFJs sure need their alone time too. We're always putting on faces for other people, which I guess we enjoy and don't mind but it's just kind of tiring? Also strong Fe can come off as introverted I think, because (or at least with me) we have a knack for knowing when we can talk and when we can't, and when we think we can't talk we tend to... well, not talk.

That's actually something I don't get in general with my Fe though? It's supposed to be a strong judging function, but I'm... really not a judge-y person? (Which is why I was so happy about being a P when I first misunderstood MBTI, I thought that being a P would mean that I wasn't a judge-y person.) I don't do those... typical bad Fe things, you know, like I don't scorn other people and I don't emotionally manipulate and it takes a lot for me to go out of my way to socially isolate you and make you feel terrible about yourself (... okay I've done it before, but...). In general I just feel like I'm the only person in the world who feels like me in a way (not in an Fi way but just, in how I approach the world) because my first thought in everything is - how can I make people comfortable. How can I be kind. How can I make them smile. How can I be the most pleasant and non-obtrusive person possible. I mean, I don't always do that, and I'm definitely not always kind (at all), but I seem to take a genuine and conscious effort to be kind in a way that I don't find as many people IRL doing? (Like my ISFJ room mate honestly does do it, which is amazing that I know someone like that, but we also understand people and things differently.)

I think it might have something to do with my being an Fe-dom 2w1 SO. Basically every center piece of my personality stuff points to me being aware of others and wanting to please them. I think that's why I identify so strongly with "agape love" and stuff, because to me kindness and love for everyone is my most natural mode.

Ack. I mused again. But maybe that got out some stuff about me?

Thank you again for responding Oswin, I appreciate your input


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> - I found myself looking this morning at the post comparing ENFPs and ENFJs (obviously not my problem, but I was looking up type comparison stuff and there it was). One example was, an ENFP can go to the store and buy everything but what they were looking for and be okay, while the ENFJ will not stop searching until they find what they're looking for. This is... sort of so me (the ENFJ). It's hard to be this way, admittedly, because it's wasteful to be picky and my mom doesn't understand it, but...
> Like a few months ago I was looking to buy a Vera Bradley purse for my backpack. I didn't know what color I wanted it to be, but I knew I wanted a Vera Bradley purse because I had seen how it looked when other people wore one, I wanted to have that style, and I had already done a benefit analysis on it and decided that one would be the best for me. When we went to the store and saw other purses, my mom was all over them (she's _always_ looking for a new purse, honestly..) but I wouldn't even look until we got to a store carrying Vera Bradley (and thankfully enough, I had just gotten money from my aunt with specific instructions to "spend on myself" so I didn't feel too guilty when I bought that ridiculously priced bag). And I was happy, because I had gotten precisely what I wanted.


Haha you sound exactly like my ENTJ friend when shopping) No offense, but it makes me want to kill her) A little) She knows exactly what color, what brand, she wants an item. She has it in mind before we go to the store. "I want to buy short teal shorts." She tries them on, but oh dear, they are an inch too long. She stares at the shorts rack, as though expecting the perfect teal shorts to materialize. We try every store in the mall. Could she try on the teal skirt? No, we'll have to go to this other city, they have a store there that she _knows_ sells teal shorts.

Bad explanation but yeah. Me, I've only been known to get caught up in a particular item if for some reason it has some meaning for me or I really want to incorporate something into my image for some reason or . . . I don't know, it'll unlikely that scenario will happen with me.
Anyways, I think you definitely use Ni-Se. It may be a coveted function, but it does exist) There are people who use it) It's not a magic power)) Not everyone who claims it is deluded)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin That's so cute about what you said with Harry Potter! It's hard for me to relate directly there because I'm so far removed from Harry Potter, but... I don't know, I think I really liked the plot and the characters of HP, as well as the literary stuff going on. The world itself kind of freaked me out - I don't like things that don't make sense, and honestly the HP Wizarding world just doesn't seem to fit into ours, I don't understand how it was maintained, I just don't think about it (but also I dislike the idea on a somewhat ethical level because regardless of how DHP1 went wizards _do_ regard themselves as better than Muggles, which... I'm never cool with), but the idea is interesting. Part of me just likes... the cozy feeling of Hogwarts. I can only think about it for a second (I can't like... day dream about fantastic places, which makes it hard for me to get to sleep lots of times) but just for a second, I think of the school community established in Hogwarts, and I go... yeah. I want that someday. I want that feeling that we all belong here, that we're all learning here, that yes there's drama but at the end of the day we've all got each other's backs. Oh, and we're fighting evil. That's probably my favorite thing about Harry Potter (along with, as I mentioned before, storylines and characters and Lily and... Lily) (and sometimes Dumbledore and Luna and Neville). 

Also, I'm still figuring out what judging functions my mom uses but one thing I'm certain of - she's an Si-dom. She's _such_ an Si-dom. And we have a really hard time communicating. She likes to small talk, talk about this, talk about that, give the dogs voices. I'm like, okay mom, okay... but can we get to the point already? She is hopeless with time. She stresses out over it, yet she can never get anywhere on time because she just... doesn't get it? I don't know. I figured out when I was ten (the year my grandfather moved in with us) that if Mom stops downstairs to talk to Papa on the way out the door... we're gonna be late for school, at least by ten minutes. But what is she still doing my 10th grade year, six years after Papa has moved in with us and I have tried to tell her how having a ten minute conversation makes us ten minutes late? Yep -- she's still going down, having a ten minute conversation with him. I mean it's sweet, but I always wished she would learn how to do hug-love you-goodbye type of thing and not make me late for school.

And my mom and I just don't get along with stuff on a personal level, but... that's personal. I guess a lighter example is how we approach teaching. I can teach. I've taught Sunday School. It's the easiest thing for me. She's telling me that it would be wrong of me to get a teaching certificate without a teaching degree for four years because I wouldn't know how to teach and I'm just like... what? I already can teach. I know that she has to be by the book, and if she reads about something in her textbook she will defend it to the death, but... that's really not my style.

Also our way of gathering information. Last year, my teacher got fired. He got fired. Everyone knew he got fired. As soon as he sat on the table and opened his mouth and started talking about regrets I knew he was fired, but it was solidifed with literally everyone openly discussing how he got fired and... oh yeah, him actually crying when he told us he wasn't allowed to come back the following semester. I recounted this story to my mom countless times - he cried, everyone knows he's not coming back, he was fired, I found out how he was fired, here - but she didn't believe me at all until four months later when the secretary at my school told her. Sigh. 


Not that ISxJs are all like that... my mom and I don't exactly get along, which makes me sound a bit more distasteful of her sadly. I always mention my room mate, she's ISFJ and we get along great. We sort of think alike, except I'm a bit way goofier and I do things like turn through random book pages and get really insanely happy (that's how she describes it lol, to me I'm just browzing over books but apparently it looks different to her) and she's... quieter. More hesitant. And sometimes we don't see eye-to-eye, again on things like getting information, filtering through our biases...
But one concrete thing we do differently is enjoy funny/sad/sweet things. (We've discussed this a little already and I don't think it's an exclusively ISFJ thing but) Like she'll be watching a video. It's a video about how a little boy broke his leg at school! Oh no! But now it's getting better, and isn't that just so inspiring?? I hate it, the video makes me feel sympathetic or something but I can't truly feel bad for the kid. He's in America. Obviously he has a family to take care of him. He'll be alright. Kids break their legs. But show me a video about a third world country or something? Or just conflict, or extreme sadness or something? Oh no. That's where my true big heart is at... not at some story about a minor inconvenience for them. Of course I would feel bad for the kid if I knew him personally, and I would go out of my way to be kind to him and all, but that's just not something significant to look up vidoes for... my room mate loves that stuff though.


----------



## Darkbloom

I just wanted to ask whether that shopping thing is really a strong sign of Ni?I had it soooo much when I was little but my dad taught me out of it a bit because I never bought anything since things I wanted rarely actually existed or if they did they were impossible to find


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## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Just confirming Fe dom typing for you
> 
> And Club Penguin XD,I loved it so much, totally forgot about it!


Thank you, Living dead  

Lol and yeah, Club Penguin was great. I liked it a lot better than Neopets especially, because it was so much easier to communicate with people and "live your life" and stuff on CP.


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## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Gurl, you are so Fe/Ni, you need to stop questioning it. You translate people into symbols? (You are a lamb… a swirl… an alligator?) Ni.
> 
> Regarding Fe-dom… I can’t relate. But I do have a Fe/Ni friend and you sound a lot like her in terms of being constantly aware of yourself in proximity to everyone else in the room. It exhausts her, but she also feels … off and incomplete if she cannot interact with people.
> 
> Me? Introvert. We got six inches of rain this week, which forced me to cancel two days worth of plans with two separate friends, and my only thought was… relief. Why? I’m happiest alone. I like to interact with people, and I particularly like to discuss things with people, but … on my terms. Once in awhile. I’m much happier being in Si/Ti and using my Fe for hours at a time wears me out.
> 
> SJs and having specific visions? LOL, no.
> 
> Here’s what my childhood was like:
> I wanna be a princess.
> I wanna be a lawyer.
> I wanna be a dinosaur expert.
> I wanna be a pastor.
> Ooh, I wanna be a novelist!
> 
> As an adult:
> I wanna be a novelist.
> If that doesn’t work, though, I can be … a hoop dance instructor … a receptionist… an interior designer …


I know, I'm probably going to try to shut down soon. You all pretty much answered my questions about my type (again, might I add, since you've all been here before mostly) and I just need to accept it. It does seem like I use Ni, especially when I think about... all the ways I don't use Si, and the little Se things about me.

I want to say my room mate has a specific vision, but... like, she kind of doesn't? But she does. She wants to have a certain rank in government, and right now everything she's doing is actually working towards that. But she also seems happy if life doesn't turn out that way, and sometimes she'll mention like "I would be a History major if my dad would just let me..." or "I used to want to go into Criminal Justice, I wouldn't mind going into Criminal Justice..." Of course, I say things like that too (mostly sarcastically, which she doesn't get) but it takes a long time for me to decide that I am going to swerve in another direction to reach my goal... and when I make that decision, I'm not going to give up suddenly. (My career counselor just doesn't get it. "It doesn't really matter what your major is in this day and age... No one ever ends up staying with the career they choose... You'll figure it out, it's okay if you aren't on the right track when you get out of college!" okay, but that's not the uncertain life I want...)

Hmm, about your introversion points. I also tend to feel relief when I find out that my plans are cancelled (mostly social anxiety, I imagine), but it's quickly followed by a sense of "oh wow, I hope they understand why we cancelled, I'll have to schedule a new time soon!" And I'm okay using... I guess it's my Ni/Ti, but only in between going for walks, talking to friends, all that good stuff.

I've got to admit that I relate a little with your career dreams as a child  But then again, when I was in first grade I decided I would be an author and that's stuck with me. My practical career goals have changed (sort of... I've gone from princess to teacher to doggy to teacher to president to teacher to actress to teacher to professor to... about to be teacher), but in the back of my head it's always the same. Will this help me write my story? And it's not just any story, either... I've got to publish my _heart_ story, and I've got to publish it perfectly, or to me it's like I might as well not publish at all. It's a bit irrational, but... Ni, I guess we know now.

I can't imagine being happy not being an author though. I mean, I'd have to find a way to be happy, and I would be happy, but on the inside I think I would still feel like a part of me and who I was going to be had been lost. (The sadder thing is I know I should get a Creative Writing degree right, if I want to be an author... gah. Good thing is I'm going to see the CRW folks today, so maybe that'll help me see if that's actually a good option or not.)

Oh, and haha, I guess the symbols thing is Ni. My friend gave me this dress, and every time I wear it and she asks me if I like it I excitedly go "I feel like _an Easter egg_!" And she just kind of shakes her head and says, "Only you could ever say that." I'm still finding it hard to believe that people can look at this dress and _not _ think Easter Egg, but... eh.


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## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Haha you sound exactly like my ENTJ friend when shopping) No offense, but it makes me want to kill her) A little) She knows exactly what color, what brand, she wants an item. She has it in mind before we go to the store. "I want to buy short teal shorts." She tries them on, but oh dear, they are an inch too long. She stares at the shorts rack, as though expecting the perfect teal shorts to materialize. We try every store in the mall. Could she try on the teal skirt? No, we'll have to go to this other city, they have a store there that she _knows_ sells teal shorts.
> 
> Bad explanation but yeah. Me, I've only been known to get caught up in a particular item if for some reason it has some meaning for me or I really want to incorporate something into my image for some reason or . . . I don't know, it'll unlikely that scenario will happen with me.
> Anyways, I think you definitely use Ni-Se. It may be a coveted function, but it does exist) There are people who use it) It's not a magic power)) Not everyone who claims it is deluded)


I'm laughing a little, because yeah, that's a lot like me. Even with books, if it's not _just_ the copy of the book I want I'm really put-off. I try to just accept what they have and not make a fuss, but on the inside I go "ugh". This isn't what I envisioned 

Now that I think about it, maybe this is why it's so hard for me to buy new clothes. I always want a certain style, a certain piece of clothing, and I get so annoyed when there's nothing there I like. (Unlike my sister, who walks into any store and suddenly sees at least ten items she absolutely must have right this instant.)

Your way of shopping sounds a lot more practical. Less fussy 

Yeah... I'm starting to see now that I do use Ni, since some things I do are very Ni and a lot of things I do are very not-Si. Thank you again for your input, as well as your patience (and everyone's patience) trying to figure me out again!


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## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> I just wanted to ask whether that shopping thing is really a strong sign of Ni?I had it soooo much when I was little but my dad taught me out of it a bit because I never bought anything since things I wanted rarely actually existed or if they did they were impossible to find


It can be a sign of Ni, yes. I'm kind of the same way, I know it's unattainable to be so singular in what I want so I settle for less (it would be kind of stingy and rude not to?), but I still don't buy a whole lot because I'm very specific in what I want, and I don't often get something if it's not what I thought I wanted. 

But as far as you go, I think you need to convince Hoopla of your type. I'm so fascinated that she thinks you're ESFJ, and I kinda want to know her reasoning behind that.

//watch her pop up and say I'm ESFJ too//


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## 68097

Get a creative writing degree, to be a novelist or writer?

No. Just start writing. Practice. Sell stuff. That’s how it works.

Mind if I derail a bit? Just because of the “Harry Potter” thing? To shed some light on it from a Si-dom perspective?

No? Good.

I merely like it, because it shows intense creativity. Rowling is playing with all these mythologies and infusing them with rich meaning and detail, and creating a world that I have never read before. Oh, I’ve seen bits and pieces of them in Narnia and Middle-earth and Discworld, but she’s doing it so effortlessly that it makes me excited to continue the adventure. 

Something I’ve noticed about Fe-doms in general is that they really love that sense of community and togetherness; and … I care more about powerful plot arcs and dynamics. Drama. Family dynamics. So, for me, the best arc in the entire HP saga is with Snape, Harry, and his parents. History repeating itself, in different ways; reinventing itself. Harry marries a redhead, Ginny… and he gives his kids the childhood James could never give him. I liked that. Full circle.

Plus, the novelty of it. Boarding school is old hat for the Brits, but not so much for us middle class Americans. Novelty! Ghosts in classrooms! Revolving staircases! It made my imagination run wild. It made me envious, as a writer, that I did not think of it first – and then terribly glad that she did, because I got to watch it all unfold, not knowing the ending. (Well, I did know the ending. I knew where she was going, inevitably… Harry’s death for his friends, allowing him to resurrect and defeat Voldemort. Mythology. Symbolism. Religious underpinnings. I figured that out with Lily in Book One, and it made me go: “Why are all the Christians irate over this book series? They’re going to feel stupid when the last book is out and … oh, Harry was a Christ figure? Well, all right then!”)

So, yeah. I’m crazy about Harry Potter, for a variety of ways I can’t entirely explain. But after decades of insipid writing, to run across her books and have such a vivid, rich world to play in, full of such intense imagination and sheer creativity made me yearn to read fiction again. Alas, I haven’t found anything other than Pratchett even remotely as enjoyable as Rowling. But, it begins and ends with Harry Potter. I could care less about her other books. I’m only in it for the fantasy mythology. So, I guess I’m a fan of Potter, but not Rowling… which probably makes me a bad fan. 

Okay, back to whatever we were talking about before. LOL


----------



## pivot_turn

I have to join the conversation again. Not that I really have anything to contribute about types, more a bit of derailing too... sorry. 

Just to add about Harry Potter, I feel like the rich detail and all the fantasy, the imagination in it is some of what fascinates me so much about it. Also how there's so much more to imagine an think about within the world, and yes I've written HP fanfiction... But there are also great characters and storylines and relationships between the characters. There's just so much in it, but really the fantasy world with all it's details must be the main thing. And I do like Rowlings detective stories too. Well there's some of the same detective story quality in HP too. But I'm ashamed to say I still haven't finished A Casual Vacancy. It might be great once I get the whole picture and not just part of it. I don't know what any of this says about type, but just a sidenote adding to the HP discussion. 

Another thing. Maybe I have that shopping thing almost but a bit differently with my Se-Ni instead of Ni-Se. I can sometimes have a specific thought of what I want, like when I wanted an old fashioned looking alarmclock and went around looking for that. But I can also have a sort of somewhat clear vision of what I want, but not that exact, so I go looking for something but cannot exactly explain what at the start at least, but still it won't do with something different from my vision... until I find a perfect piece of clothing or something and push my other vision to somewhere into the future instead. But in general I go for a simpler approach with not so clear plans. On the other hand, every now and then I have this thing where I sort of overdo the research in the shopping. And my mum does this as well, and resently we just noted this that "we overdo this a bit don't we. It could be simpler". What I mean is that I need something and don't have exact requirements before, but I have to go to every store and compare all the items I see before making a decision. Like when buying something expensive, this might be good, but buying something smaller, this seems a bit unnecessary. As an example I was buying an umbrella about half a year ago, and I wanted something a bit better so it wouldn't break the first thing, but should still not be expensive, so I made a thing out of this and looked all over and at the end I started to have a vision of the perfect umbrella as well. Then decided on the one in the store closest to my workplace. 

Sorry, I'm just rambling. XD


----------



## Darkbloom

I started a new thread if someone's interested 
There'll (hopefully) be some new Si and Ni stuff


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I can't imagine being happy not being an author though. I mean, I'd have to find a way to be happy, and I would be happy, but on the inside I think I would still feel like a part of me and who I was going to be had been lost. (The sadder thing is I know I should get a Creative Writing degree right, if I want to be an author... gah. Good thing is I'm going to see the CRW folks today, so maybe that'll help me see if that's actually a good option or not.)


Please don't spend thousands of dollars on a degree that will be of no use to you. What is the purpose of a Creative Writing degree? Maybe some of the courses will help you be a better writer...but I really don't think it will teach you more than you'd learn on your own, writing and writing and writing (and reading). If you had a specific job goal in mind, that might be the way to go but it sounds to me you want to be a novelist and it would be better to spend your time writing, putting your work out there, etc. To be a good writer you'll want to take in as much knowledge and experience as possible (I assume) so getting a degree in something else...that you can use in your writing...is probably better in the long run. Plus, writing isn't a guaranteer for paying the bills, better have something to fall back on. (On a side note, yesterday I passed the $300 mark; I have officially made 300 dollars writing  Which I know is a pathetic sum of money to be proud of, but it's wayyy cooler than the money I make at my real job haha)
Sorry for the unrequested pearls of wisdom, but I think it's so dubious that colleges insist you 'need degrees' for certain professions that definitely don't need degrees.

There's so much I love about Harry Potter though, I could wax rhapsodic on the subject for days (and I probably have). Everything. Everything is perfect. (Except for the weird mention of 'werewolf pups' in the first book which contradicted the later werewolf deal, but I'll let it go). The feeling of pure _magic_ and fellowship is probably the main thing though. It feels like drinking butterbeer)


----------



## 68097

I always wonder why people take writing classes. If you read, you can observe how other people write, and learn from their success and failures. But then, that's my Si talking. I follow their example, try their style on for awhile, then keep what I like and discard the rest in my own writing. But, mostly, I OBSERVE.

As an editor, I am often baffled at the stuff that comes across my desk. I cannot help wondering if the person submitting reads anything, ever, because if they did, they would pick up rudimentary "rules" of writing. I knew one guy, an established "columnist" who had hissy fits if anyone touched or corrected his stuff, but who continually made punctuation errors. Such as: "... blah blah blah". 

I often find among my literary friends that those who say they ought to take writing classes never actually write; they WANT to be a writer, but are not one, because they are not writing. If you are using the need for a writing class as an excuse not to write right now, stop that. Start writing. If you need to polish your work later, so be it. But you will never write a novel if you do not sit down and write.

And yes, have an actual job and write as a hobby. Until you hit the big time, at least.


----------



## Schizoid

alittlebear said:


> This is where I may come across as introverted (I won't say INFJ because I still can't buy dominant Ni for myself... but introverted).
> 
> I had this thing all through high school where I would go home and crash. All day - ten hours, gosh - I would be around people. And when I'm around people, I'm constantly trying to please them. Even when they aren't even aware of me I try to please them. I spend my time adjusting myself so that I am non-obtrusive to people at the store, people in the classroom, the teacher... I might not even talk, but I am constantly aware of those around me and how they percieve me. And at the end of the day, I always find that I am quite exhausted. I tend to get grouchy, go upstairs, have to listen to music / read / research / do something other than interact face-to-face with people.
> 
> Now, it's different in college, particularly now. I want alone time so that I can, say, respond to forums and look through Tumblr without my RL friends feelings ignored... but I like it when I'm with people, I'm finding.
> 
> Okay. So this semester I've started doing "study sessions" with one of my friends before our three-hour long class. I love it. Or... I do love it and I don't love it. I don't love it because I don't think well in a group. I can't figure out a play if you tell me about it, I need to read about it and figure it out through my own methods before we meet up and discuss it. In that way, it's not productive. However, it is productive in that we can share ideas, and... I don't know, it's fun to just be friendly and focused on something. I'm actually considering taking the same class as her next semester, even though my advisor isn't advising it, just so we can do "study groups" like this again.
> 
> In a similar way, I have an inability to do homework with another person. I just won't get it. I can _teach_ someone what I know after I know it - this is actually the best way for me to cement my knowledge - but I can't... learn it from someone on the fly (especially not a student, who could be teaching me wrong for all I know).
> 
> Like, so this week I have been working on my research paper (just turned it in -- that's the reason I only got ~ two hours of sleep last night). On Monday night, my friend (who is definitely not a History major, not in the class) and I went up to a study room to get stuff done. I didn't think it would work out, but actually it was great. I got to read, and we were both working on stuff so we only talked to each other when we wanted to share something. Sometimes I would stop and try to explain to her something (on Monday night it was just _how sad _ this historic couple was) and, even though she actually didn't enjoy my doing that very much (though of course she pretended to, as she's a very kind ISFJ) it helped me to just discuss my feelings about what I was reading.
> 
> Last night, however, everything was due the next day. I needed to be left alone. While I babbled to her about some of the funnier stuff in my paper, I actually found myself _leaving_ her presence to just go outside and figure out what I was doing.
> 
> (That's another thing. I am a very private thinker. At home, I can't stand for someone to even be sleeping in the same room as me if I'm reading / thinking / writing. It disrupts my thoughts, I think because their emotions distract me from my own thoughts and tug at them. It's not as big of a deal at school now because I get my homework done when I'm out of my dorm, but I think that this factored into my frustration last night.)
> 
> But I also need to be around people. I can't stand being around people. Lately all I've had is trauma thoughts swirling in my head, but they dissolve whenever I talk to someone. I've almost been seeking out people to talk to, going to see my poor professors more than usual, going out to eat, going online, just trying to communicate with people so my head won't be so... sad, I guess, melancholy. And I guess that's escaping stress through communication? A lot of times though I do it online, that's how I got through high school (listening to music/pacing to get rid of stress, and texting my friends and such when I was at home).
> 
> Basically... when I'm stressed about school, I need to... talk it out, laugh it out, give the appearance of it being okay, be reassured by someone who sees through my confident crap... but then I need to disconnect and focus on me to actually get it done. And just in general, I deal with stress through distraction of I guess physical things (listening to music [although I listen to music only to think about music, it's weird], pacing, etc.) and communication.
> 
> (Sorry this post is all over the place... hopefully it makes sense, maybe I should have waited to sleep but I should keep on my homework and get some of these replies done.)
> 
> Thank you for your response, again, though! Sorry it's so long and jambled, but I appreciate you dropping by and giving your input.



I just read through this entire post as well as the other posts. I am seeing very clear Fe as well as Ni.
We seemed to share so many similarities with each other, yet at the same time, we have a few differences here and there. Haha 

I'll list out the differences first. The differences is, you use Fe a lot more than me, and you are a lot more extroverted than me. 
In this post for example, you mentioned that in high school you spent ten hours around people.
As I was reading through that part, I was wondering, "How did you managed to do that?? If I have to be around people ten hours a day, I would end up feeling very cranky. Alone time is like oxygen to me, I can't survive without it."
I can fake extroversion around people, but I can only do this for a few hours at a time. After a few hours of faking extroversion, I will end up feeling very cranky and I need to get away from people. And I find it interesting that you mentioned that you are constantly trying to please people, I do the same thing as you too, except that I only do this around my close friends. Whenever there is any conflicts between me and my friends, I start feeling very upset and I start getting insomnia over those conflicts. I will also go all the way out to apologise to them just to make peace with them even if I know it's not my fault. Whenever I see my friends in need of help, I will go all the way out to help them. I have also stayed up until 3am just to accompany a friend of mine because she is feeling down. During my high school days, I always played the "counselor" role among my friends. Whenever they need advice about anything in their life, they would always turn to me for the answers. 
So this is how I act around my close friends, I am a huge people-pleaser, the "counselor", the "wise one". 
Around acquaintances whom I'm not very close to, I won't go all the way out to please them, but I will maintain basic harmony with them by avoiding doing things that will piss them off. For example, I have a colleague at work who gets mad at me because I didn't say hi to her.Actually I didn't say hi to her because I have social anxiety, and I get panic attacks from those type of things. Yeah, but she apparently got upset with me over that incident, so from that day onward, I started pushing myself out of the comfort zone and started saying hi to her every morning. Yeah, so my people-pleasing mode is mainly around my close friends, but around acquaintances, I will just maintain basic harmony with them and avoid doing things that piss them off. 

As for the other things that you mentioned in this post, such as being a private thinker, I can also relate to it. Ti types usually tend to be private thinkers and they tend to think best when they are alone. And the part where you mentioned that you had trauma thoughts swirling in your head but it dissolves whenever you talk to someone, that part actually sounds very ENFJ  Sometimes, I will have those trauma thoughts myself as well, and usually when I am in this mode, I will withdraw from people and start going into introspection mode. 


Yep so I have covered up all the differences. Now let's talk about similarities 

We have quite a few similarities as each other. For example, in your other post, you mentioned that about how you will have a vision of something and it will take a lot to swerve to another direction, I can relate to that. I have a vision of what I wanna do for a career, but my family kept trying to discourage me. They would tell me to "stop dreaming" and that my visions will never become a reality,
but I refused to believe what they said, and I continued persevering. I don't care how many years it takes me to turn my visions into reality, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, I refused to give up on my vision and I will continue persevering until everything becomes a reality. My parents will also try to convince me to switch career routes, like they will tell me to go for fashion design instead, but I refused to go for that route, because that route isn't in my vision. I don't really care for alternatives, I don't really care for back-up plans, I just know that I have a vision, and I want to turn my visions into reality. 


And there is another part where you mentioned that you are good at seeing through people into their soul. I can relate to that. 
I usually have this tendency to see 2 people, or perhaps 3 people in everyone. I am aware that many people have this tendency to put up multiple masks. Most people usually have at least 3 different faces in them. When they are around acquaintances, they would wear Mask No. 1. Then when they are around close friends and their significant other, they would wear Mask No. 2. And when they alone by themselves, this is when they will drop all their masks and start being their true self. 
When I looked at a smiling cheery person for example, I can't help but to think to myself, "Is that person really as cheerful as how they appear on the surface? Or could they be hiding sadness behind their cheerful exterior?"
Let's just say that I rarely take things at face value and I have this tendency to look beneath the masks that people are wearing. 
Whenever I meet people for the first time, I would look into their eyes to figure out what type of person they are. Whenever I glanced into people's eyes, I start seeing their inner world. I noticed that there are some people's eyes who radiate lots of light, they seemed to have an optimistic view toward life, and they seemed to have a loving compassionate nature to them, hence the light in their eyes, then there are those who have a cold hard stare in their eyes, and looking in their eyes actually gave me a shiver down my spine, I can't help but to wonder whether they could be a psychopath or something, and then there are those who have a tired exhausted gaze in them which made me wonder whether they could be suffering from depression or whether they could be facing some personal problems in their life or something. 


And oh yea, I have a video to share with you too, I have this feeling that you will find yourself relating very much to this video too :kitteh:






As an INFJ, this is how I view this world: 
I often find myself thinking about things like the global issues that is going around in this world. I noticed that this world could be quite a dark place at times, there are wars everywhere, there are people fighting, there are people wishing ill upon each other.
One of my Ni visions is to spread love around humanity, I hate how dark this world could be at times, and I'd love to bring some light into humanity. I want to use my existence on earth to contribute something positive toward humanity, I want to make this world a better place for people to live in. I feel that the video described my feelings really well, so I decided to share that video with you.
I think you will relate quite well to that video too, since you are an ENFJ and we share the same functions. :kitteh:


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## Pressed Flowers

Sorry again guys for the delay - I will respond whenever I get off Tapatalk! (Which should be soon) 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## penny lane

I can enjoy outside interaction with people but on my terms. I also need a certain amount of outside " approval" but not that way it is with a Fe dom I'm sure. If I have time way from people I'm doing the happy dance and feel comfortable in my si/ti state of mind.So I totally get that.

I do however know many ESFJ's (not so many ENFJ's) I see how they process things differently from how I do.Some of them are not that extroverted but function wise it fits better. One of them just went through something that I was the sounding board and sympathetic ear for. I swear I could see the process as it happened the very hurt Fe dom(and I'm thinking this has happened before why are you shocked? My si dom).The aux si kicked in the next day they remembered examples of how this had happened before and then the Ne and Ti finally did it's job and they are in a much better place. I feel better because she feels better.


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## Pressed Flowers

Sort of a long quote, so I'll hide it 
* *






angelcat said:


> Get a creative writing degree, to be a novelist or writer?
> 
> No. Just start writing. Practice. Sell stuff. That’s how it works.
> 
> Mind if I derail a bit? Just because of the “Harry Potter” thing? To shed some light on it from a Si-dom perspective?
> 
> No? Good.
> 
> I merely like it, because it shows intense creativity. Rowling is playing with all these mythologies and infusing them with rich meaning and detail, and creating a world that I have never read before. Oh, I’ve seen bits and pieces of them in Narnia and Middle-earth and Discworld, but she’s doing it so effortlessly that it makes me excited to continue the adventure.
> 
> Something I’ve noticed about Fe-doms in general is that they really love that sense of community and togetherness; and … I care more about powerful plot arcs and dynamics. Drama. Family dynamics. So, for me, the best arc in the entire HP saga is with Snape, Harry, and his parents. History repeating itself, in different ways; reinventing itself. Harry marries a redhead, Ginny… and he gives his kids the childhood James could never give him. I liked that. Full circle.
> 
> Plus, the novelty of it. Boarding school is old hat for the Brits, but not so much for us middle class Americans. Novelty! Ghosts in classrooms! Revolving staircases! It made my imagination run wild. It made me envious, as a writer, that I did not think of it first – and then terribly glad that she did, because I got to watch it all unfold, not knowing the ending. (Well, I did know the ending. I knew where she was going, inevitably… Harry’s death for his friends, allowing him to resurrect and defeat Voldemort. Mythology. Symbolism. Religious underpinnings. I figured that out with Lily in Book One, and it made me go: “Why are all the Christians irate over this book series? They’re going to feel stupid when the last book is out and … oh, Harry was a Christ figure? Well, all right then!”)
> 
> So, yeah. I’m crazy about Harry Potter, for a variety of ways I can’t entirely explain. But after decades of insipid writing, to run across her books and have such a vivid, rich world to play in, full of such intense imagination and sheer creativity made me yearn to read fiction again. Alas, I haven’t found anything other than Pratchett even remotely as enjoyable as Rowling. But, it begins and ends with Harry Potter. I could care less about her other books. I’m only in it for the fantasy mythology. So, I guess I’m a fan of Potter, but not Rowling… which probably makes me a bad fan.
> 
> Okay, back to whatever we were talking about before. LOL







First, I want to make it clear that I'm really okay with discussions about whatever here. It helps people figure out how types interact, and sort of sorts out functions and how they're different... plus it's fun. Now that I've gotten my type squared away, feel free to discuss Harry Potter or whatever (if any few people want to). It's not a bother at all to me. 

And yeah... I don't know, I'm going to elaborate more in my response to Oswin, but... I never wanted to get a creative writing degree because I thought of all the people who got creative writing degrees and how they didn't actually get published and how so few people became across and I figured... you have to do something different. That's partially why I'm going for an English degree now, because English is such a versatile degree and I think figuring out about what made past literature great could help me figure out how to produce my own literature. If that's not too pretentious 

In the past though I have agreed that creative writing degrees are stupid, you should just write on your own. Only now I'm recognizing that I'm unable to write on my own, I need help improving my writing because I'm really not as great of a writer as I thought I was when I was 14. But maybe learning to edit and practicing more - when I get my writing juice back - could help me with that. 

I'm honestly not a fan of pure creativity. Weird, since that's all we did when I was in Gifted, let's see who can be the most random and out-of-the-box... I appreciate truth. Sure, that piece of art might be pretty and original, but does it say something about life? About the world? Is it a striking critique of the nastier parts of human nature? That's what I look for. I'm not impressed by... originality, I guess. I mean, I am impressed on a polite level, but I enjoy irony and truth-seeking more than that. 

Which is sort of why I wasn't blown away with Harry Potter, I think. I get that people love it. And I love it too, in my own way. But to me the world is kind of silly and it's well developed, yes, but it seems like a random appendage of our world that isn't meant to represent anything in particular, it's just... a story. Which I'm sort of okay with, but you know I would rather contemplate even Tolkien's world more (regardless it's still an Ne creation) because you can see how theological and philosophical insights into our world influenced his creation of his... well not even his Middle Earth, but his everything, the entire story. There are deeper influences in the plot of HP, but the Wizarding World itself just feels kind of random to me. 

About community and together-ness.... _yes._ This is a bit heartbreaking, but when I was little, after growing up with constant contact with my extended family (on weekends, after school, after Sunday Mass, like all the time I was with them) we had a... crap load of family drama (sort of worse that all of Shakespeare's plays put together, I recently observed recently to my father) and I was sort of suddenly cut off from all my family. I spent a lot of time drawing plans for a giant boat for my family to all stay on, "so no one could leave," as I put it, and I designed rooms for everyone to be happy in (like I had a bunch of smoking rooms on the boat which were comfortable so people could smoke, I had a place for my grandmother's dogs, in my head I picked out different furniture for each family member so they could be happiest, etc.). This was when I was... what, maybe seven, and of course I didn't take it too seriously, but I think it says something that I valued group harmony that much. 

(And it's always funny to me when I think about these things, because I go... how in the world did I ever doubt that I used strong Fe? It's everywhere in my childhood, in my life.) 

And I think that's why I really turned to books as a kid. It wasn't so much that I loved the characters - although I did definitely love the compassionate young girl protagonists that flood children's literature - but rather that I loved how the characters came together. I loved how they cared, how they used teamwork to solve problems, how they became one unit to accomplish something, how they all just... overcame bad situations through their communal love. I craved it in real life as well, but it was nice t go into the Book World and immediately experience that. 

I also enjoyed drama (I'm incredibly guilty of it... I actually think I kept reading the kid's series _Warriors_ because it's all just incredibly dramatic, and I craved the character tension), and sometimes I even valued the tense drama over the fun communal stuff because that was more exciting and stomach turning, but I wasn't about... continuity, unless it was meaningful. Like in _Warriors_, I stopped reading when they went back to the beginning of the series, like way before the first book came out, to the origin story. I just don't care. I want to keep seeing the characters _I_ love, not go back and see that, "Oh, Firestar did this but it's so much more interesting now because Gingerstar did the same thing in the first generation!" Yeah, no. Cycles make me sad actually, because everything's just such a conondrum and it's overwhelming to me. I like originality in that way, when people (or cat characters, I guess) pave their own way and find their own unique way to shine. 

Looking back on Harry Potter, it means nothing to me that Harry married a redhead like his father. For so many reasons, that's not enough for me. One, it feels like a shallow difference. I get it on a symbolic level, but on an actual level... not so much. Lily and Ginny are two completely different people. Harry and his father are _definitely_ two completely different people. I find it happy because in a way Harry was personally able to complete the cycle and get to a happy ending where his parents weren't, and I guess that's what we're supposed to feel, but him falling in love with a redhead like his dad... eh. I'm not there with that. 

I shipped Luna and Harry lightly, but ultimately I wanted him to marry a Muggle girl. This would have been kind of perfect, honestly (says the shipper...), because... well, one, it would have been realistic. We don't usually marry the crushes we have when develop when we're ten, and high school / Hogwarts relationships... in the real world, it's very unlikely that they match up. But say Harry defeated the Dark Lord. Say Harry defeated the Dark Lord, and set the Wizarding World right, but he kept going back to the Muggle World. Because there was nothing wrong with Muggles - part of the war had been destroying the idea that Muggles were inferior! - and he had grown up with them anyway, he knew more about the Muggle world than he did about the Wizarding World. And he fell in love with a woman... and, say, all his children with this Muggle woman were non-magical. Squibs, I guess, but also just... Muggle-ish. They would still have to be honored in the Wizarding World - they would be the children of their Savior! - and I can see Harry still sending them to Wizarding school, and... That would have made it so much better. Like, show true growth. Show that there's nothing inferior about Muggles. Show that the Wizarding World is moving beyond it's magical prejudices. 

I know that's a bit lofty, and very much out of the storyline... but that's how I would have liked Harry's relationships better. 

I'm glad you enjoy Harry Potter though, and I don't want to act as if I hate it and don't think anyone should like it. I can definitely see why people do  but I like it for different reasons, and I grow annoyed with it for reasons I don't find a lot of people finding


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## Pressed Flowers

To jump ahead a little, I'll respond in more detail but the song @Schizoid reminded me of another song I listen to when I'm feeling sad about the world (yes, because of all the terrible things that happen, just because of cruelty in the world and all the terrible things people suffer both nationally and internationally...) 



It's a bit more washy, but... It makes me happy. To think that Disney captured that longing for a better, more kinder world (it can't be too far off base if Disney's wondered about it too, right?) and to get an idea of this beautiful world that the song evokes thought of. 
One of my favorite lines (which I'm considering putting in my signature, but we'll see): _A prayer for something better is the thing we all share_. That's so beautiful to me. I think that, deep down, it is true for all of us (whether we recognize it or not).


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## Pressed Flowers

pivot_turn said:


> I have to join the conversation again. Not that I really have anything to contribute about types, more a bit of derailing too... sorry.
> 
> Just to add about Harry Potter, I feel like the rich detail and all the fantasy, the imagination in it is some of what fascinates me so much about it. Also how there's so much more to imagine an think about within the world, and yes I've written HP fanfiction... But there are also great characters and storylines and relationships between the characters. There's just so much in it, but really the fantasy world with all it's details must be the main thing. And I do like Rowlings detective stories too. Well there's some of the same detective story quality in HP too. But I'm ashamed to say I still haven't finished A Casual Vacancy. It might be great once I get the whole picture and not just part of it. I don't know what any of this says about type, but just a sidenote adding to the HP discussion.
> 
> Another thing. Maybe I have that shopping thing almost but a bit differently with my Se-Ni instead of Ni-Se. I can sometimes have a specific thought of what I want, like when I wanted an old fashioned looking alarmclock and went around looking for that. But I can also have a sort of somewhat clear vision of what I want, but not that exact, so I go looking for something but cannot exactly explain what at the start at least, but still it won't do with something different from my vision... until I find a perfect piece of clothing or something and push my other vision to somewhere into the future instead. But in general I go for a simpler approach with not so clear plans. On the other hand, every now and then I have this thing where I sort of overdo the research in the shopping. And my mum does this as well, and resently we just noted this that "we overdo this a bit don't we. It could be simpler". What I mean is that I need something and don't have exact requirements before, but I have to go to every store and compare all the items I see before making a decision. Like when buying something expensive, this might be good, but buying something smaller, this seems a bit unnecessary. As an example I was buying an umbrella about half a year ago, and I wanted something a bit better so it wouldn't break the first thing, but should still not be expensive, so I made a thing out of this and looked all over and at the end I started to have a vision of the perfect umbrella as well. Then decided on the one in the store closest to my workplace.
> 
> Sorry, I'm just rambling. XD


No problem rambling! You know you're always welcome on my typing threads  

I do like being able to imagine the lives of characters and stuff. I'll admit to that. Maybe not so much in Harry Potter - I'm still not a fan of their world, though I like thinking about like Lily sometimes because her life is a little like mine, and Dumbledore's backstory is... fascinating... - but I didn't find myself imagining fan fiction and such for Harry Potter. Warriors though... _so_ much fan fiction, so many ideas  Warriors has right from the start what was described in one of the earliest reviews as "the cast of a Greek drama). It's incredibly true. But that's what I love about it. The system the little cats live under is so simple, and you can really get a feel for how the hierarchy is, and appreciate the relationships... like oh, at first you think that they love Bluestar because she's like their "queen," but then you understand that, oh, some of them are actually scared of her while others genuinely respect her because she mentored them and they grew up with her, and... gah, I love relationships and stuff in fiction. Like in _Hamlet_ honestly my favorite parts were with his mom, because they had such a complex relationship that's so much deeper than the typical "oh I love you kid" mom son relationships. She thought he was crazy, and she was okay with him stifling himself, and we don't even know we she married his uncle... but in the end she sacrifices herself in an attempt to save him, even after he attacks her and addresses his enmity for her... Gah, I love that stuff. I love relationships (not romantic really, but just relationships in general)

And also I could babble about Warriors all day, haha. I love it like... Like I guess people tend to love Harry Potter, but it's funny for me to imagine people loving Harry Potter like I loved Warriors. Sometimes I feel sad because like I should have just loved Harry Potter like everyone else, it would have been so much easier and socially acceptable, but... nah. For whatever reason, I was more attracted to the political / social / ethical / silly complexities of a series about wild cats instead.

Edit: oh and I'll finish commenting later, but at the moment I have to go and take my sister and cousin to the nail salon. Sigh


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## idoh

alittlebear said:


> Well, I'm pretty confident I'm not an INFJ, but...
> 
> I'm not really reserved at all in conversation. As long as someone wants to talk to me, I will talk to them, and I will talk to them very openly, even (and somewhat especially) if I don't know them. I'm very friendly.
> 
> The only thing is that I am very hesitant to talk when I feel I am not wanted. This, I think, is my Fe paired with my social anxiety.
> 
> At a baby shower, I would be hesitant to even talk to my family because honestly they don't see me as an equal, they see me as a little naive foolish stupid girl and I have a hard time asserting myself as worthy to speak with them. This is why, when at my cousin's baby shower a month ago, I was very quiet.
> 
> But I did speak a lot with, say, my cousin, because I love her and she is something of like a sister to me. I also made some jokes to her... convenient Diane, who I hadn't met before, because he's out of family politics and saw me as a college freshman, not as the daughter of the family stiff.
> 
> I also spoke with my cousin's fiance's mother, and I hadn't met her before. I'm friendly like that. I talk to whoever I can and I always love it, so long as I'm not annoying them terribly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


wow haha i didn't know you actually went to a baby shower! that was just an example :laughing: i'm not sure...! this might be an unpopular opinion but quiet and little naive foolish stupid girl with hard time asserting herself sounds like an INFP, isn't that you keep getting on quizzes? i mean is there any reason why you doubt INFP, if you relate to it well? infps can be really bubbly too, especially if you relate to enneagram 2, i would imagine an enneagram 2 infp will be much more social and active and caring (Fe like) than an infp 4. you could also be calm peaceful and friendly enough to be a type 9, which again would be different from a type 4 and "Fe like"

ok there :th_wink: i don't really know you so i'm not going to convince you anything, i just wondered why you didn't relate to infp


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## Pressed Flowers

Sorry, I'm replying on Tapatalk, but 

Yes, I am fully aware that I meet the INFP stereotypes. The INFP descriptions definitely fit me. But the thing is... I'm not INFP. I might come across as a naive, foolish little girl, but that's because I meet the expectations people have for me and I just naturally fill those roles. I'm also just definitely not Fi. Almost everything about me is Fe, that's clear in like absolutely everything I do. I want people to like me. I am a total people pleaser. I am unhappy when other people are unhappy. I don't even know what personal values are. I change myself to fit everyone, like my neighbor thinks I am this super smart conservative girl and I bring him hope for our generation while my professors are surprised by what an enlightened and progressive girl I am and heck, I don't even know what I am because I just want to be a person who can make others happy. I also define myself by how others see me, and I have a hard time even defining myself outside how others see me. Like I KNOW I am more than a stupid, silly girl, but at the same time if you asked me to describe myself I would say I was a stupid and silly girl because that's how I'm perceived and that's how I see myself. 

I mean, there's countless reasons why I am Fe over Fi. The other day it really came out, I was feeling sick inside and uncomfortable but I couldn't cry until I listened to this song where these military wives are talking to their husbands, like I couldn't relate to their situation in any way but I just felt moved to cry, I found it easier to cry for them than for myself. Same thing when we were watching The Notebook, gosh the characters were annoying and I couldn't relate at all but I realized how sad the situation was and I sobbed. 

Sorry for being a little snappy and curt. It's just I realize that I come across in the stereotypical way INFPs do, but if you look at my functions (and compare me to how actual INFPs act/think/feel/experience life) it's pretty apparent that I am in no way an INFP, or Fi at all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pressed Flowers

Like I am constantly trying to... please people, be what they want. I don't assert myself not because I'm not sure of myself or I don't want to express myself and I want to hold in my feelings, but because I don't feel it's my place to assert myself at times (at any time). 

And the way I care about people is extremely Fe. I genuinely care about... everyone. My mom for example donates money to homeless people because "that could be us at any time," but I'm like??? You don't see someone suffering and just want to help them? I need no personal connection to anyone to care about them, but instead I just... care about everyone. In equal measure. And I can't value anyone above another person, like I use the example of I would have a hard time deciding who to save if I had to save the life of my mother or another women. I don't value people subjectively in that way. 

Also I have a friend who is undoubtedly an Fi dom, and we couldn't be more different. We are both concerned about international issues and want to change the world, we have big dreams, but... For example, we both have mental illnesses, but the way we approach it is different. I feel like a burden for having trauma problems, and even (especially) for my physical disabilities. No, it's not my fault that I can't walk sometimes, but I don't want to trouble people anyway and I keep walking as best I can because I hate the patronizing scorn and annoyance people would feel if they knew that, oh wow, this girl can't walk, now she's going to take 15 minutes out of my night that I otherwise would have had. My friend though, she blames those who see her as annoying for being Bad People, like wow why don't they realize that I can't control my illness, I can't help this why are they judging me it's their fault for judging me I don't care if I annoy them because they're in the wrong! We also disagree on a ton of other things, in how we see the world, like she wants to live and be Authentic and help those who have suffered as she has while expressing herself while me... not like that at all. I want to be a leader, I want to be impactful, I want to be influential, I want to be strong... I want to be a person who can impact change and help people, and I don't even know what Me Being Authentic would look like, so I'm not worried about that at all. I'm more concerned with how I appear to other people, and I want more than anything I think to appear a certain way to others... while INFPs aren't like that. Fi isn't like that. 

I also tested as INFP because of my anxiety problems. We realize this now. I am introverted, but this is because I have social anxiety. I tested as P because I've been taught that I'm an irresponsible person by my SJ mother's standards, I took it too seriously with questions like "Am I ever late?", and as an anxious person part of my coping mechanisms is that I procrastinate to succeed, I hate procrastinating but that's something my therapist says I use to survive, it's just something I have to do given that I have GAD. 

There's also a ton of J things about me. I am constantly aware of what I need to do throughout the day. My head is a giant clock, calendar, schedule. I need a deadline to get something done, and I work really well with deadlines. I almost always meet deadlines (heck, at this moment I am in the anniversary of my trauma, and everyone says I need to take a day off school work an just take care of myself, but even now I keep pushing myself to turn everything in on home). Every day, I have a plan for what I need to do, a plan I always get through. I am also very direct and focused in a way INFPs don't tend to be at first. 


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## idoh

alittlebear said:


> Sorry, I'm replying on Tapatalk, but
> 
> Yes, I am fully aware that I meet the INFP stereotypes. The INFP descriptions definitely fit me. But the thing is... I'm not INFP. I might come across as a naive, foolish little girl, but that's because *I meet the expectations people have for me and I just naturally fill those roles*. I'm also just definitely not Fi. Almost everything about me is Fe, that's clear in like absolutely everything I do. I want people to like me. I am a total people pleaser. I am unhappy when other people are unhappy. I don't even know what personal values are. *I change myself to fit everyone, like my neighbor thinks I am this super smart conservative girl and I bring him hope for our generation while my professors are surprised by what an enlightened and progressive girl I am and heck, I don't even know what I am because I just want to be a person who can make others happy*. *I also define myself by how others see me, and I have a hard time even defining myself outside how others see me*. Like I KNOW I am more than a stupid, silly girl, but at the same time if you asked me to describe myself I would say I was a stupid and silly girl because that's how I'm perceived and that's how I see myself.
> 
> I mean, there's countless reasons why I am Fe over Fi. The other day it really came out, I was feeling sick inside and uncomfortable but I couldn't cry until I listened to this song where these military wives are talking to their husbands, like I couldn't relate to their situation in any way but I just felt moved to cry, I found it easier to cry for them than for myself. Same thing when we were watching The Notebook, gosh the characters were annoying and I couldn't relate at all but I realized how sad the situation was and I sobbed.
> 
> Sorry for being a little snappy and curt. It's just I realize that I come across in the stereotypical way INFPs do, but if you look at my functions (and compare me to how actual INFPs act/think/feel/experience life) it's pretty apparent that I am in no way an INFP, or Fi at all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ohh a lot of that sounds like enneagram 9. you might find this thread interesting http://personalitycafe.com/infp-for...type-9-fe-type-9-can-you-tell-difference.html

but there is not much doubt you are NF, and you said you to Fe more (and J), and are confident you're not INFJ, so i guess you are ENFJ then


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## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Sort of a long quote, so I'll hide it
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is sort of why I wasn't blown away with Harry Potter, I think. I get that people love it. And I love it too, in my own way. But to me the world is kind of silly and it's well developed, yes, but it seems like a random appendage of our world that isn't meant to represent anything in particular, it's just... a story. Which I'm sort of okay with, but you know I would rather contemplate even Tolkien's world more (regardless it's still an Ne creation) because you can see how theological and philosophical insights into our world influenced his creation of his... well not even his Middle Earth, but his everything, the entire story. There are deeper influences in the plot of HP, but the Wizarding World itself just feels kind of random to me.
> 
> About community and together-ness.... _yes._ This is a bit heartbreaking, but when I was little, after growing up with constant contact with my extended family (on weekends, after school, after Sunday Mass, like all the time I was with them) we had a... crap load of family drama (sort of worse that all of Shakespeare's plays put together, I recently observed recently to my father) and I was sort of suddenly cut off from all my family. I spent a lot of time drawing plans for a giant boat for my family to all stay on, "so no one could leave," as I put it, and I designed rooms for everyone to be happy in (like I had a bunch of smoking rooms on the boat which were comfortable so people could smoke, I had a place for my grandmother's dogs, in my head I picked out different furniture for each family member so they could be happiest, etc.). This was when I was... what, maybe seven, and of course I didn't take it too seriously, but I think it says something that I valued group harmony that much.
> 
> (And it's always funny to me when I think about these things, because I go... how in the world did I ever doubt that I used strong Fe? It's everywhere in my childhood, in my life.)
> 
> And I think that's why I really turned to books as a kid. It wasn't so much that I loved the characters - although I did definitely love the compassionate young girl protagonists that flood children's literature - but rather that I loved how the characters came together. I loved how they cared, how they used teamwork to solve problems, how they became one unit to accomplish something, how they all just... overcame bad situations through their communal love. I craved it in real life as well, but it was nice t go into the Book World and immediately experience that.
> 
> I also enjoyed drama (I'm incredibly guilty of it... I actually think I kept reading the kid's series _Warriors_ because it's all just incredibly dramatic, and I craved the character tension), and sometimes I even valued the tense drama over the fun communal stuff because that was more exciting and stomach turning, but I wasn't about... continuity, unless it was meaningful. Like in _Warriors_, I stopped reading when they went back to the beginning of the series, like way before the first book came out, to the origin story. I just don't care. I want to keep seeing the characters _I_ love, not go back and see that, "Oh, Firestar did this but it's so much more interesting now because Gingerstar did the same thing in the first generation!" Yeah, no. Cycles make me sad actually, because everything's just such a conondrum and it's overwhelming to me. I like originality in that way, when people (or cat characters, I guess) pave their own way and find their own unique way to shine.
> 
> Looking back on Harry Potter, it means nothing to me that Harry married a redhead like his father. For so many reasons, that's not enough for me. One, it feels like a shallow difference. I get it on a symbolic level, but on an actual level... not so much. Lily and Ginny are two completely different people. Harry and his father are _definitely_ two completely different people. I find it happy because in a way Harry was personally able to complete the cycle and get to a happy ending where his parents weren't, and I guess that's what we're supposed to feel, but him falling in love with a redhead like his dad... eh. I'm not there with that.
> 
> I shipped Luna and Harry lightly, but ultimately I wanted him to marry a Muggle girl. This would have been kind of perfect, honestly (says the shipper...), because... well, one, it would have been realistic. We don't usually marry the crushes we have when develop when we're ten, and high school / Hogwarts relationships... in the real world, it's very unlikely that they match up. But say Harry defeated the Dark Lord. Say Harry defeated the Dark Lord, and set the Wizarding World right, but he kept going back to the Muggle World. Because there was nothing wrong with Muggles - part of the war had been destroying the idea that Muggles were inferior! - and he had grown up with them anyway, he knew more about the Muggle world than he did about the Wizarding World. And he fell in love with a woman... and, say, all his children with this Muggle woman were non-magical. Squibs, I guess, but also just... Muggle-ish. They would still have to be honored in the Wizarding World - they would be the children of their Savior! - and I can see Harry still sending them to Wizarding school, and... That would have made it so much better. Like, show true growth. Show that there's nothing inferior about Muggles. Show that the Wizarding World is moving beyond it's magical prejudices.
> 
> I know that's a bit lofty, and very much out of the storyline... but that's how I would have liked Harry's relationships better.
> 
> I'm glad you enjoy Harry Potter though, and I don't want to act as if I hate it and don't think anyone should like it. I can definitely see why people do  but I like it for different reasons, and I grow annoyed with it for reasons I don't find a lot of people finding[/spoiler]


First of all, to clarify: I don't want to sound like I'm arguing with you; obviously your perception of something is your perception, and people take out different things from the same things, whole point of the discussion))

I loved the Warriors series! I have the feeling I wouldn't be that impressed if I were to read it now, but I loved the little world. I remember my dad was really against my reading these books because they were 'clannish, dark, and subversive' or something...I'm still not really sure where he got that (well, clannish yes, but subversive?) but he's one of those people who in uncomfortable with fantasy..._and_ cats, so I guess it was just too much 

To me, Harry Potter is very meaningful. Aside from the details, which are delightful and wonderful Like, to me, the way that Snape's love for Lily was the keystone of the whole narrative...gahh. It ties perfectly into the hero's journey, and I think it teaches some good lessons without being preachy. You can analyze it from all sorts of different angles (I won't though) and it'll hold up. A series like Warriors, or Percy Jackson, or Chrestomanci or something, seems just like another kids' series to me. I feel like Harry Potter is like . . . a modern epic; honestly I truly expect people will be analyzing it in literature class two hundred years from now.

Like...if I had children, I would _want_ them to read, digest, re-read Harry Potter. I feel like it would make them a better person. Same with, like, the Chronicles of Prydain (most underrated childrens' series). In the same way that fairytales are good for children.

But actually I might be a little biased; I'm having some difficulty separating Harry Potter and my history with Harry Potter. It was such a big part of my childhood/adolescence. My best friend and I are literally only friends because of Harry Potter. I still have notebooks and notebooks and notebooks filled with our fanfiction (we had our own characters in the universe...tbh we still do haha). Our favorite description of Hogwarts, we literally wrote it on everything, like I'm constantly finding books (not even Harry Potter books) with it written in it: "Hogwarts is a beautiful place, and you don't know until you leave it. It's . . . a place to discover the magical in oneself. A second home to the loved, a first to the abandoned. A place that will hold something different, but always important, for each student. A place that will open the heart." Which I guess is how we felt about Harry Potter)

A few years ago I rediscovered Harry Potter though) I'd been so unhappy and like...shallow, I'd just been worried about my weight and my measurements and all this stupid stuff, and I picked up Harry Potter, and it was such an eye-opener, that the characters weren't valuable for their sexiness or their GPA or anything...that they were good people, and brave . . . I probably could have gotten that from any book series, but I always feel like Harry Potter brought me back into the real world))

I didn't really like Harry and Ginny together; I just wasn't feeling it. I don't know who I would put him with; I guess Ginny was as good a choice as any, but a Muggle girl could've been cool))

About the Ni thing though...you kinda confirmed for me that I don't use Ni) I end up tuning it out when people start talking like this . . . it's like, when people put on Lennon's Imagine I start internally rolling my eyes _sooo_ much. For one thing, I don't feel like things are so bad, and I feel like maybe the bad things are there for a reason. I mean, it's not that I don't care that there are children starving or any of that . . . and I would like to make it better (ok maybe if I actually cared I would have already done something to make it better) But to me it seems much better to make the best of this life than imagining how much better things could be. And if everyone was doing that probably we _would_ have a better world.

Sorry, hard to explain what I mean, but on another subject, when you get a chance you should check out the Quebecoise musical "Notre Dame de Paris" based on Hugo's work. It's so good) I really, really hate the Disney musical. Like oh my gosh why is it ok to have lyrics like "she will be mine or she will burn" or "It's not my fault, it's in God's plan, who made the devil so much stronger than a man" in a children's movie? Love that song, but . . . it seems super off to me. plus the animation is not great. But this musical is beautiful) Unfortunately, it's in French, but there are many versions with subtitles. I'm constantly recommending it to everyone)


----------



## idoh

alittlebear said:


> Like I am constantly trying to... please people, be what they want. I don't assert myself not because I'm not sure of myself or I don't want to express myself and I want to hold in my feelings, but because I don't feel it's my place to assert myself at times (at any time).
> 
> And the way I care about people is extremely Fe. I genuinely care about... everyone. My mom for example donates money to homeless people because "that could be us at any time," but I'm like??? You don't see someone suffering and just want to help them? I need no personal connection to anyone to care about them, but instead I just... care about everyone. In equal measure. And I can't value anyone above another person, like I use the example of I would have a hard time deciding who to save if I had to save the life of my mother or another women. I don't value people subjectively in that way.
> 
> Also I have a friend who is undoubtedly an Fi dom, and we couldn't be more different. We are both concerned about international issues and want to change the world, we have big dreams, but... For example, we both have mental illnesses, but the way we approach it is different. I feel like a burden for having trauma problems, and even (especially) for my physical disabilities. No, it's not my fault that I can't walk sometimes, but I don't want to trouble people anyway and I keep walking as best I can because I hate the patronizing scorn and annoyance people would feel if they knew that, oh wow, this girl can't walk, now she's going to take 15 minutes out of my night that I otherwise would have had. My friend though, she blames those who see her as annoying for being Bad People, like wow why don't they realize that I can't control my illness, I can't help this why are they judging me it's their fault for judging me I don't care if I annoy them because they're in the wrong! We also disagree on a ton of other things, in how we see the world, like she wants to live and be Authentic and help those who have suffered as she has while expressing herself while me... not like that at all. I want to be a leader, I want to be impactful, I want to be influential, I want to be strong... I want to be a person who can impact change and help people, and I don't even know what Me Being Authentic would look like, so I'm not worried about that at all. I'm more concerned with how I appear to other people, and I want more than anything I think to appear a certain way to others... while INFPs aren't like that. Fi isn't like that.
> 
> I also tested as INFP because of my anxiety problems. We realize this now. I am introverted, but this is because I have social anxiety. I tested as P because I've been taught that I'm an irresponsible person by my SJ mother's standards, I took it too seriously with questions like "Am I ever late?", and as an anxious person part of my coping mechanisms is that I procrastinate to succeed, I hate procrastinating but that's something my therapist says I use to survive, it's just something I have to do given that I have GAD.
> 
> There's also a ton of J things about me. I am constantly aware of what I need to do throughout the day. My head is a giant clock, calendar, schedule. I need a deadline to get something done, and I work really well with deadlines. I almost always meet deadlines (heck, at this moment I am in the anniversary of my trauma, and everyone says I need to take a day off school work an just take care of myself, but even now I keep pushing myself to turn everything in on home). Every day, I have a plan for what I need to do, a plan I always get through. I am also very direct and focused in a way INFPs don't tend to be at first.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i just read your questionnaire. tell me this doesn't sound like you
INFP Personality (“The Mediator”) | 16Personalities

here' enfj for comparison
ENFJ Personality (“The Protagonist”) | 16Personalities

it's all right if you are Fe dom, i just think it's kind of pointless to call yourself one type if you fit into another type better.


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## Pressed Flowers

Sorry, I'm jumping around again. I'll answer this one and I have to read a little, then I'll return 
* *






Oswin said:


> First of all, to clarify: I don't want to sound like I'm arguing with you; obviously your perception of something is your perception, and people take out different things from the same things, whole point of the discussion))
> 
> I loved the Warriors series! I have the feeling I wouldn't be that impressed if I were to read it now, but I loved the little world. I remember my dad was really against my reading these books because they were 'clannish, dark, and subversive' or something...I'm still not really sure where he got that (well, clannish yes, but subversive?) but he's one of those people who in uncomfortable with fantasy..._and_ cats, so I guess it was just too much
> 
> To me, Harry Potter is very meaningful. Aside from the details, which are delightful and wonderful Like, to me, the way that Snape's love for Lily was the keystone of the whole narrative...gahh. It ties perfectly into the hero's journey, and I think it teaches some good lessons without being preachy. You can analyze it from all sorts of different angles (I won't though) and it'll hold up. A series like Warriors, or Percy Jackson, or Chrestomanci or something, seems just like another kids' series to me. I feel like Harry Potter is like . . . a modern epic; honestly I truly expect people will be analyzing it in literature class two hundred years from now.
> 
> Like...if I had children, I would _want_ them to read, digest, re-read Harry Potter. I feel like it would make them a better person. Same with, like, the Chronicles of Prydain (most underrated childrens' series). In the same way that fairytales are good for children.
> 
> But actually I might be a little biased; I'm having some difficulty separating Harry Potter and my history with Harry Potter. It was such a big part of my childhood/adolescence. My best friend and I are literally only friends because of Harry Potter. I still have notebooks and notebooks and notebooks filled with our fanfiction (we had our own characters in the universe...tbh we still do haha). Our favorite description of Hogwarts, we literally wrote it on everything, like I'm constantly finding books (not even Harry Potter books) with it written in it: "Hogwarts is a beautiful place, and you don't know until you leave it. It's . . . a place to discover the magical in oneself. A second home to the loved, a first to the abandoned. A place that will hold something different, but always important, for each student. A place that will open the heart." Which I guess is how we felt about Harry Potter)
> 
> A few years ago I rediscovered Harry Potter though) I'd been so unhappy and like...shallow, I'd just been worried about my weight and my measurements and all this stupid stuff, and I picked up Harry Potter, and it was such an eye-opener, that the characters weren't valuable for their sexiness or their GPA or anything...that they were good people, and brave . . . I probably could have gotten that from any book series, but I always feel like Harry Potter brought me back into the real world))
> 
> I didn't really like Harry and Ginny together; I just wasn't feeling it. I don't know who I would put him with; I guess Ginny was as good a choice as any, but a Muggle girl could've been cool))
> 
> About the Ni thing though...you kinda confirmed for me that I don't use Ni) I end up tuning it out when people start talking like this . . . it's like, when people put on Lennon's Imagine I start internally rolling my eyes _sooo_ much. For one thing, I don't feel like things are so bad, and I feel like maybe the bad things are there for a reason. I mean, it's not that I don't care that there are children starving or any of that . . . and I would like to make it better (ok maybe if I actually cared I would have already done something to make it better) But to me it seems much better to make the best of this life than imagining how much better things could be. And if everyone was doing that probably we _would_ have a better world.
> 
> Sorry, hard to explain what I mean, but on another subject, when you get a chance you should check out the Quebecoise musical "Notre Dame de Paris" based on Hugo's work. It's so good) I really, really hate the Disney musical. Like oh my gosh why is it ok to have lyrics like "she will be mine or she will burn" or "It's not my fault, it's in God's plan, who made the devil so much stronger than a man" in a children's movie? Love that song, but . . . it seems super off to me. plus the animation is not great. But this musical is beautiful) Unfortunately, it's in French, but there are many versions with subtitles. I'm constantly recommending it to everyone)





 

I hated HOND as a kid. Or I didn't hate it, but indefinitely didn't enjoy it. The whole thing terrified me. That scene where they almost hung the two guys...? Yeah, no. Looking back on it now though I can see that it's just a gorgeous movie. The themes are incredible, the characters are wonderful, it's just a beautiful piece of... something, and I greatly enjoy it. 

I can see why you don't though. I mean it's not something I would show to a group of third graders, but it's still a great movie to me nonetheless. 

Oh, and don't worry about sharing your opinions! I'm fine with that, really. Sorry if my opinions come across as too loud, I'm fine with people disagreeing but I have strong thoughts about some things. I don't take any offense to different views on different things like this though  

Yeah, my parents and teachers weren't too happy about me reading Warriors. It wasn't so much the darkness in it as it was the... childishness. You're twelve and you're _still_ reading a book about cats? I can see their point, but they didn't realize that it wasn't about cats... it really was a mini piece of literature, with a lot of things that are relevant in literature (in all my literature classes I find myself thinking like "you didn't know that blindness is actually a literary device where the blind character sees reality more clearly than all the sighted characters...? wow, okay...") and a lot of darker themes. It was about cats, but I think that what that really did was free them up to discuss sadder themes. Wow, this kid is struggling with murdering someone because his dad was a serial killer and a cult leader and he thinks he will be the same way if he isn't careful. This guy is literally trying to kill his ex girlfriend AND her kids because he's not over her breaking up with him back in high school. Heck, they even had a mini Holocaust at one point. The Erin's were able to introduce some deep and somewhat scary stuff to kids because it was displayed through cats, which made it not so weird and more understandable. 

I used Harry Potter in my AP essay (and it almost failed me, but anyway...) so I do understand that it has literary significance. I can't deny that. As @angelcat points out, Harry is such a Christ figure, and that's absolutely everywhere, especially in the last installments (the last movie and book absolutely break my heart, ugh). It's more the world I find weird. There's no poetry behind it, no meaningful reason for it to be there, nothing the Wizarding World is meant to represent... it's just there. I don't know. I struggle with that. 

That's very sweet about your experience with Harry Potter  I'm glad you were able to get that from it. That's sort of what Warriors did for me... not completely, but I realized ,ugh later that what attracted me to Warriors was how it dealt with underdog characters. The main characters tended to be outcasts, misfits... You wouldn't expect a disabled cat to be the hero of the entire cat universe, especially when he was treated like crap growing up and constantly told how useless he was. Feathertail and Stonefur were nearly murdered as kids, and shunned by their world, and yet they both went on to save all the Clans, and both of them to significantly help the Tribe. Squirrelpaw and Crowpaw were annoying, pointless apprentices who got under everyone's paws but they still rose above and helped save the Clans too. And of course there's Firestar, who of course was your typical hero but in his world... he was meaningless, he was the worst possible thing any cat could be, and yet, again, he still saved every single Clan a thousand times over. That was an inspiring message to me, that even the most unexpected person could make a difference and prove their worth. Of course most books are like that, but it really hit me with Warriors. 

Eh, I will say I hate Imagine too. It's communism. He's envisioning communism. And communism sucks, it's a pretty idea but it's the most unrealistic thing. Also I hate how he wants to imagine a world without religion when religion is very much what gives my life light and color and meaning. But I mean that's an INFP song, so it makes sense for you and me to be annoyed with it. 

But apart from Lennon's song, I do tend to like those angsty NF songs about how we can make a better world  

I'll try to look at that musical! It looks a little scary to me, but I'll try to look at it if/when I can. I tried reading _Hunchback of Notre Dame_, but it was when I was younger and I couldn't get into it. Now I can read _Crime and Punishment_ in three days so I imagine it'll be easier for me to read, but we'll see this summer. I'm just kind of sad, because I think that Esmeralda (honestly my favorite part of HOND the Disney version) isn't how she is in the Disney movie, and... I don't know. I don't want my heart to be broken like that to realize she isn't supposed to represent what she represents for me :/ 

Also this is similar to what got me into opera on Thursday! Someone posted about La Esmeralda, like this nineteenth century opera based on Hugo's HOND, and I looked it up and it was gorgeous. Maybe your musical will be just as gorgeous  thank you again for recommending it and responding!


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## Pressed Flowers

idoh said:


> i just read your questionnaire. tell me this doesn't sound like you
> INFP Personality (â€œThe Mediatorâ€�) | 16Personalities
> 
> here' enfj for comparison
> ENFJ Personality (â€œThe Protagonistâ€�) | 16Personalities
> 
> it's all right if you are Fe dom, i just think it's kind of pointless to call yourself one type if you fit into another type better.


Oh my goodness. I'm sorry, but I've already addressed that I know I seem like the stereotypical INFP. I have acknowledged countless times that if you read the INFP description it matches me very well. _But I do not use Fi. _ I don't know how I can say that any more clearly. I am expressive. I change my emotions to fit those around me. I don't give a care about authenticity. I don't know who I am, and I don't care who I am - I just want to be apart of a change in the world and truly help people, leave this place a little better than I found it. 

I'm sorry I'm getting short, but you're honestly trying to type me based on stereotypes and descriptions and I really don't appreciate that. I mean, I do appreciate your help, but I don't like your typing methods and I feel like you aren't listening to what I'm saying.

Edit: also it's kind of funny because this is one of those ENFJ descriptions that fits me super well. I can't disagree with any of this, honestly (assuming I don't suck as a person... which I do think I suck as a person because I have social anxiety and I think I'm a person who no one respects or likes, but of I put aside those doubts and try to think about myself objectively honestly I agree with almost all of this)


> People are drawn to strong personalities, and ENFJs radiate authenticity, concern and altruism, unafraid to stand up and speak when they feel something needs to be said. They find it natural and easy to communicate with others, especially in person, and their Intuitive (N) trait helps people with the ENFJ personality type to reach every mind, be it through facts and logic or raw emotion. ENFJs easily see people's motivations and seemingly disconnected events, and are able to bring these ideas together and communicate them as a common goal with an eloquence that is nothing short of mesmerizing.
> 
> The interest ENFJs have in others is genuine, almost to a fault - when they believe in someone, they can become too involved in the other person's problems, place too much trust in them. Luckily, this trust tends to be a self-fulfilling prophesy, as ENFJs' altruism and authenticity inspire those they care about to become better themselves. But if they aren't careful, they can overextend their optimism, sometimes pushing others further than they're ready or willing to go.
> 
> ENFJs are vulnerable to another snare as well: they have a tremendous capacity for reflecting on and analyzing their own feelings, but if they get too caught up in another person's plight, they can develop a sort of emotional hypochondria, seeing other people's problems in themselves, trying to fix something in themselves that isn't wrong. If they get to a point where they are held back by limitations someone else is experiencing, it can hinder ENFJs' ability to see past the dilemma and be of any help at all. When this happens, it's important for ENFJs to pull back and use that self-reflection to distinguish between what they really feel, and what is a separate issue that needs to be looked at from another perspective.


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## Pressed Flowers

Also, I don't really relate to these INFP descriptions much. Apart from that in a way they are stereotypical NF descriptions (wanting to change the world, having an inner vision... nothing specific to INFPs here). Yet I still disagree with some of it


> Unlike their Extraverted cousins though, INFPs will focus their attention on just a few people, a single worthy cause - spread too thinly, they’ll run out of energy, and even become dejected and overwhelmed by all the bad in the world that they can’t fix. This is a sad sight for INFPs’ friends, who will come to depend on their rosy outlook.
> 
> If they are not careful, INFPs can lose themselves in their quest for good and neglect the day-to-day upkeep that life demands. INFPs often drift into deep thought, enjoying contemplating the hypothetical and the philosophical more than any other personality type. Left unchecked, INFPs may start to lose touch, withdrawing into "hermit mode", and it can take a great deal of energy from their friends or partner to bring them back to the real world.
> 
> Luckily, like the flowers in spring, INFP’s affection, creativity, altruism and idealism will always come back, rewarding them and those they love perhaps not with logic and utility, but with a world view that inspires compassion, kindness and beauty wherever they go.


 One thing, I don't lose touch with the world. I am constantly engaged with the world. Even when I'm not engaged with the world, it's because I'm cont employing the world and trying to understand reality better. And when I come back to engaging n the world better, I understand it better because of my musings. I don't just disconnect. And I don't "lose myself in my quest for good," I am not involved in day to day stuff like sweeping every day because that's pointless but I don't have a problem showering every day, eating, sleeping, etc., again I am very judging in that way, I am very responsible even when I seem withdrawn from the world in my contemplation of it. 

And again, I don't invest myself in just a few people. My Fe has me invest myself in everyone. I am kind to everyone, I just try tobe loving to everyone and I value everyone equally because... well, because I'm Fe, and that's what Fe does and Fi doesn't. 

Sorry again for being short, but I'm not INFP. And if I was INFP and actually being Fi, this isn't the way one should go about trying to convince me of it. Tell me how what I'm understanding as Fe is actually Fi. Explain it to me that way. But please don't show me a description and go "this is you isn't it! not ENFJ!" because that's not the type of typology I like to engage in.


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## orbit

You know the other day, I read a Capricorn horoscope/description and I thought, "Wow! This stereotype of Capricorns really fits me!" even though I'm a Sagittarius. (not really)

alittlebear knows she is Fe. With 25 pages and nobody convincing her otherwise, I think she's Fe. Not Fi, like an INFP.


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## idoh

alittlebear said:


> Oh my goodness. I'm sorry, but I've already addressed that I know I seem like the stereotypical INFP. I have acknowledged countless times that if you read the INFP description it matches me very well. _But I do not use Fi. _ I don't know how I can say that any more clearly. I am expressive. I change my emotions to fit those around me. I don't give a care about authenticity. I don't know who I am, and I don't care who I am - I just want to be apart of a change in the world and truly help people, leave this place a little better than I found it.
> 
> I'm sorry I'm getting short, but you're honestly trying to type me based on stereotypes and descriptions and I really don't appreciate that. I mean, I do appreciate your help, but I don't like your typing methods and I feel like you aren't listening to what I'm saying.
> 
> Edit: also it's kind of funny because this is one of those ENFJ descriptions that fits me super well. I can't disagree with any of this, honestly (assuming I don't suck as a person... which I do think I suck as a person because I have social anxiety and I think I'm a person who no one respects or likes, but of I put aside those doubts and try to think about myself objectively honestly I agree with almost all of this)


if caring for other people directly is something you enjoy doing, and putting their needs before your own all the time, then that is definitely more Fe. when i was in english class we had to make a list ranking what was most important to us in order, and i put "my own happiness" on top, and then came "family", and then "money" etc. some of the other girls were shocked because they put "family" at the top and were probably judging me. 
i think you being an NF is obvious, you don't have to look into ESFJ. if you are confident of having Fe, then ENFJ it is. another way to double check that is if you are an FJ you will probably find a lot of conflicts with TP people.


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## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> You know the other day, I read a Capricorn horoscope/description and I thought, "Wow! This stereotype of Capricorns really fits me!" even though I'm a Sagittarius. (not really)
> 
> alittlebear knows she is Fe. With 25 pages and nobody convincing her otherwise, I think she's Fe. Not Fi, like an INFP.


This is my good friend Curi everyone. Apparently she's sold on my being ENFJ.


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## Pressed Flowers

idoh said:


> if caring for other people directly is something you enjoy doing, and putting their needs before your own all the time, then that is definitely more Fe. when i was in english class we had to make a list ranking what was most important to us in order, and i put "my own happiness" on top, and then came "family", and then "money" etc. some of the other girls were shocked because they put "family" at the top and were probably judging me.
> i think you being an NF is obvious, you don't have to look into ESFJ. if you are confident of having Fe, then ENFJ it is. another way to double check that is if you are an FJ you will probably find a lot of conflicts with TP people.


Of course I don't put their needs before mine all the time. Who does? I think that's a kind of funny false idea of Fe that we have. Fe does tend to undervalue its own wants and desires (sometimes because they don't even know what they want), but they do sometimes assert themselves and what they want and have desires. 

But, minus the "put their needs before yours all the time" part... yep, that's me. I _love_ directly caring for others - it is one of the absolutely more fulfilling things for me - and I do tend to undervalue what I want to appease others (and I have a very difficult time actually knowing what I want a lot of the time). 

My INFP friend is quite the same way. I don't think it's bad (I actually think it's quite honest, because I think when it comes down to it we all want to be happy, and good is the person who can be open about that), but for example if I were to make a list like that I would put "God," and then "humanity". In the end I do seek these things and value them I guess to make myself happy, but it's more of "I want God to be happy, I want humanity to be happy," and that's why I value them. 

Thank you for your help though, and I do apologize for being more than a little curt. I wasn't in the most comfortable place when I responded to you, and Fi is something I've considered and dismissed for myself so it's something that would have taken a while to convince me of regardless of it's presentation.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Please don't spend thousands of dollars on a degree that will be of no use to you. What is the purpose of a Creative Writing degree? Maybe some of the courses will help you be a better writer...but I really don't think it will teach you more than you'd learn on your own, writing and writing and writing (and reading). If you had a specific job goal in mind, that might be the way to go but it sounds to me you want to be a novelist and it would be better to spend your time writing, putting your work out there, etc. To be a good writer you'll want to take in as much knowledge and experience as possible (I assume) so getting a degree in something else...that you can use in your writing...is probably better in the long run. Plus, writing isn't a guaranteer for paying the bills, better have something to fall back on. (On a side note, yesterday I passed the $300 mark; I have officially made 300 dollars writing  Which I know is a pathetic sum of money to be proud of, but it's wayyy cooler than the money I make at my real job haha)
> Sorry for the unrequested pearls of wisdom, but I think it's so dubious that colleges insist you 'need degrees' for certain professions that definitely don't need degrees.
> 
> There's so much I love about Harry Potter though, I could wax rhapsodic on the subject for days (and I probably have). Everything. Everything is perfect. (Except for the weird mention of 'werewolf pups' in the first book which contradicted the later werewolf deal, but I'll let it go). The feeling of pure _magic_ and fellowship is probably the main thing though. It feels like drinking butterbeer)


If I did do anything in my degree with writing, I would probably get a minor in Creative Writing with double majors in English and Elementary Education (so I wouldn't be _too_ hopeless in the world of not writing). I always sort of intended to be a teacher and write when I was on summer break / not teaching. There's no way I would go to school to just be a writer... My family wants me to take care of them someday, so even though I would be fine living in a small apartment with very inexpensive things I have to make myself stable so that I can take care of my parents (and, of course, someday adopt). I'm the person who has to remind some of my friends that... as anti-capitalist and Marxist as they may be in their heads, the reality of the world is that we have to make money somehow. My INTJ friend may call me a "capitalist sell-out," but I think you've just got to find a way to survive really. 

The only thing with writing is I'm starting to think classes could really help. I've always been self-trained in my writing, and now I'm realizing that... I want to be more than self-trained, like I actually want to write well and if that means sucking up my pride and taking lessons, that's what I'll do. 

But then again, they do have other means. Forums can actually be very helpful... I intend to join a creative writing forum over the summer, see if I can get help there. It wouldn't be the same as getting a degree, but it could help me get back on my feet though. 

Thank you for your concern though. I do appreciate your care. 

I'm really glad that you love Harry Potter though  Someday I might acquire that. I've had it for certain periods of my life (like the week before the final movie came out...), but mostly it's an easily drained mini obsession I can develop. It makes me happy when I see that it brings happiness to other people though.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I always wonder why people take writing classes. If you read, you can observe how other people write, and learn from their success and failures. But then, that's my Si talking. I follow their example, try their style on for awhile, then keep what I like and discard the rest in my own writing. But, mostly, I OBSERVE.
> 
> As an editor, I am often baffled at the stuff that comes across my desk. I cannot help wondering if the person submitting reads anything, ever, because if they did, they would pick up rudimentary "rules" of writing. I knew one guy, an established "columnist" who had hissy fits if anyone touched or corrected his stuff, but who continually made punctuation errors. Such as: "... blah blah blah".
> 
> I often find among my literary friends that those who say they ought to take writing classes never actually write; they WANT to be a writer, but are not one, because they are not writing. If you are using the need for a writing class as an excuse not to write right now, stop that. Start writing. If you need to polish your work later, so be it. But you will never write a novel if you do not sit down and write.
> 
> And yes, have an actual job and write as a hobby. Until you hit the big time, at least.


This writing class I took this semester forced me to write, to figure out how to write on my own. If anything my Lit classes would be the ones distracting me from writing, as I soaked up timeless literature instead of actually producing my own. 

Also yeah, sorry if I made it seem like I was going to solely get a Creative Writing degree. Even when I was seven and wanted to be a writer I realized that was silly. Thank you both for the advice though (that would have been an important thing for me to be told if I was convinced I could support myself with a Creative Writing degree). 

I've been mostly reading a lot this year (as I've been required to with the classes I've been taking). I hope I've learned a lot. I honestly haven't been able to write much, for, well, trauma-related reasons (every time I try to write it's about my experience even when I don't want it to be and then I feel sort of lost, and... yeah), but I think this class might have helped pull me a little bit out of that rut. So I'm grateful to it for that. But I do agree that I just need to start _writing_. I intend to at least try to write something every day over the summer, but only time and my commitment will tell if that works out. 

As for writing a novel, maybe I'll catch I to an idea and stick with it when I do my writing experience over the summer, but I really intend to try the NANO challenge this November. Hopefully I'll be able to write by then, and have enough experience with writing to produce something not terrible. 

Hank you again for your advice though, both of you. I think I've gotten a book from both of you (I think I downloaded the first book of your series, @Oswin, but I'm not sure) and your advice on these things is invaluable. I will try to keep this in mind.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> If I did do anything in my degree with writing, I would probably get a minor in Creative Writing with double majors in English and Elementary Education (so I wouldn't be _too_ hopeless in the world of not writing). I always sort of intended to be a teacher and write when I was on summer break / not teaching. There's no way I would go to school to just be a writer... My family wants me to take care of them someday, so even though I would be fine living in a small apartment with very inexpensive things I have to make myself stable so that I can take care of my parents (and, of course, someday adopt). I'm the person who has to remind some of my friends that... as anti-capitalist and Marxist as they may be in their heads, the reality of the world is that we have to make money somehow. My INTJ friend may call me a "capitalist sell-out," but I think you've just got to find a way to survive really.
> 
> The only thing with writing is I'm starting to think classes could really help. I've always been self-trained in my writing, and now I'm realizing that... I want to be more than self-trained, like I actually want to write well and if that means sucking up my pride and taking lessons, that's what I'll do.
> 
> But then again, they do have other means. Forums can actually be very helpful... I intend to join a creative writing forum over the summer, see if I can get help there. It wouldn't be the same as getting a degree, but it could help me get back on my feet though.
> 
> Thank you for your concern though. I do appreciate your care.
> 
> I'm really glad that you love Harry Potter though  Someday I might acquire that. I've had it for certain periods of my life (like the week before the final movie came out...), but mostly it's an easily drained mini obsession I can develop. It makes me happy when I see that it brings happiness to other people though.


Ok, sorry if I jumped to conclusions and started advising too much)) just...yeah, I was (needlessly) concerned. 
[BTW btw btw If you did download my book (if there are other installments in the series, that is not it haha...) _thank you_, that's really sweet, but _*don't read it,*_ honestly I'm hoping just stupid people will get it and not realize how bad it is. That is not modesty, it is me cringing every time I refer to it for what I'm doing now...which seems _ so amazing_ as I'm writing it, but a year from now will probably look as bad as everything else does now. . . :frustrating: ]

Good luck with your writing)) You seem like such a kind, interesting person -- I'm sure you have a lot to offer the world in that respect; I'm sure I'd love reading something you'd written)


----------



## Dangerose

Can I just say, this thread has helped me get a better handle on Ni. I think you use Ni very similarly to my ENTJ friend; I'm always really surprised by the . . . metaphors? she'll pull out of the air. "He's a pie, I'm an ostrich"...now that I get that it's sort-of an Ni thing it makes a little more sense. (I would try to copy it, because she always seems so definite, like I'd try to assign a random object to a thing or . . . now I get why that wouldn't have worked) Like, seriously, this helped a lot of pieces come together for me and I feel like I kinda get what Ni-doms and auxs are doing. Now I'm curious about how it manifests in SPs...but I'll just have to wait for a SP to have a big long thread like this I guess)

Anyways, thanks for this, it's been really interesting and illuminating to read)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> Let's just see if I can attempt to answer these questions. Alright.
> 
> - I don't intentionally twist people to see them in a good way... I mean to me if you're being unkind and going out of your way to be unkindly not going to delude myself and go, "Oh, I'll assume the best and think that maybe their dog died or something and that's why they're being so unkind!" No. Not me at all. (I think that's sort of ridiculous honestly, but I know people who do that, who have suggested that, just assuming that someone had a good reason to be unkind. I think that's delusional and irrational.) I just... subconsciously see what I see as people's souls. This also is delusional, but it's a delusion I subscribe to without trying - I'll see a person for two minutes and already I have an idea of who they are, a way to describe them, to touch the truth of their being (I just saw a boy at the bus stop for ten minutes, he was very kind, but I would describe him as an alligator [cant explain it, but there it is], but like... a nice alligator. And sort of like a buffalo or something, even though he was a relatively small and physically un-bufallo-like person. I mean I can't say I know who he is, I don't even know his name, I won't recognize him again when I seek around campus, but I still got an idea of how I would describe him.
> So... Yeah, I think I'm closer to the first option you provided.
> 
> - Definitely more strident and absolute towards an ideal.
> 
> - This one is hard for me. I'll accept a new idea if it makes sense I guess. Like my History professor explained a theory he had about the Black Death, and I went, "Okay. He knows more than me, and the arguments he's making really make sense. I'll accept it personally." Today in class a girl mentioned how Porfiry in _Crime and Punishment_ represented Raskolnikov's conscience, and I could accept that... It makes some sense. But then my professor wanted to compare the essence of Porfiry to Virgil in _The Inferno_? No way. Maybe like as a figure, Porfiry fulfills the same role as Vergil did for Dante, but Porfiry is much crueler and much more human.
> 
> That has actually been getting me in trouble throughout this semester in this class. I am like the only person who openly challenges what the professor says if it doesn't fit my interpretation of the work.
> 
> As for the Fe stuff, alright. I mean honestly like I said I can't see myself being INFJ, and ENFJ still makes a lot of sense to me (but particularly Fe dominance makes a lot of sense to me)


Rather solidifies ENFJ, if you ask me. 

Loved your example of seeing dresses as easter eggs, and being surprised no one else did, haha. Ne wants to share those ideas, with everyone who will accept them. Polling people to gain more. I don't think that's you. You strike me as the type who needs to ruminate on those ideas, especially considering that you don't like changing your singular truth unless that truth is proven false.

What I meant to gauge was if someone just dumps some new idea, that cancels out your own visions, can you accept that, or will you need to ruminate it? Accepting the new ideas in that case sounds more Fe... they're educated, so you judge their opinions are more valid than yours. However you get strict when you just know people are wrong. Ha.

You don't really strike me as the type to just throw something hair brained on the table to see if it sticks. You just have these absolute truths you know are ideal, and it will take you awhile to believe anything else. I'd guess you can get rather scrutinizing and razor sharp at times, yes? It's ok to admit it, haha. 

I like how the symbols of people kinda just come to you... and the wariness of admitting it. As if you don't want to come across as holier than thou, because Fe. Haha. Know those feels (but for different reasons). 

Your reaction towards Imagine is what I'd expect from an ENFJ, btw. It's Ne the song. "Not realistic, guys. It's beautiful but it's not going to work." I can feel that razor sharpening and cutting into our fun, but Fe is trying to keep the peace because you understand the meaning it holds towards people. Personally, I don't care if it's realistic.... and who knows, if we all arm together, maybe we can change the world... utopias are pretty much the embodiment of Ne. You're not a whismical, idealistic dreamer at all. 

Also just look at your reactions with Owsin... you can see the Ne and Ni contrast between the two of you, correct? All her dreamy little worlds... you're not really bonding with her in that regard. You're bonding through Fe. 

Even your questionnaire had some Ni-Se in there. 



> At first, I’m a little excited. As morbid as it is, I yearn secretly for adventure, and getting suck on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere would be quite an adventure for me


Yeah... that's Se girl. Si doesn't work that way. Sounds fun, but I'd be trying to prepare for it in my brain. Ni does the same... but in a different way. Si is just exacting about it's sensory environment. Se is just more expansive, confused by categories, hates labels, because it's soaking up the world, and labels deter from that. Si is filtering it out, and labels help to determine what the world is (especially when paired with Ti, haha). Si narrows sensory data, and Se expands it, whereas Ne expands intuitive abstracts, and Ni narrows them. Ne is more general, Ni absolute. I'm guessing the sensory world to you is expansive. I kinda have an idea of how things are, through my experiences, and if Ne doesn't aide, I'm hella stubborn and can panic if shit isn't how I planned and Ne isn't visiting me to change perspectives and see new opportunities of how things could go.

Also thank you. I'm not even that educated or pro. I just know how to sophisticate my words in order to look like Einstein. Learn as you go.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Can I just say, this thread has helped me get a better handle on Ni. I think you use Ni very similarly to my ENTJ friend; I'm always really surprised by the . . . metaphors? she'll pull out of the air. "He's a pie, I'm an ostrich"...now that I get that it's sort-of an Ni thing it makes a little more sense. (I would try to copy it, because she always seems so definite, like I'd try to assign a random object to a thing or . . . now I get why that wouldn't have worked) Like, seriously, this helped a lot of pieces come together for me and I feel like I kinda get what Ni-doms and auxs are doing. Now I'm curious about how it manifests in SPs...but I'll just have to wait for a SP to have a big long thread like this I guess)
> 
> Anyways, thanks for this, it's been really interesting and illuminating to read)


I'm sure an SP will catch attention soon  

I'm glad you feel this helped though! As a 2 of course I always like to see that I can help others even as I'm being helped, or that something I did helped in some way. So I appreciate that comment  

And yes, my metaphors are so definite! Like if this drink tastes like sunflowers, I'm... going to say that, but I'm also not going to back down from asserting that it tastes like sunflowers, because there's nothing one can do to change that it tastes like sunflowers  

It really does confuse my friends and family, but sometimes they come to delight in it. For example, right before I got severe tourettes I started using the word "frog" casually. I would use it as a replacement cuss word, say "what the frog" and etc. this actually turned out to be very helpful when I did get Tourette's, because unfortunately I do have that semi rare type of Tourette's (I mean I have every rare type of Tourette's honestly lol [except maybe not echolalia] but I have this type too) where I say obscene words. But to me my most obscene words I use are "frog" and "cow," so it's not _as_ offensive when I randomly go "FROG!" 

I mention this because "frog" has come to mean so much to me. I call someone a frog if I love them. I call someone a frog if they're a jerk (well, sometimes I say "bullfrog" or "toad" to describe them, but other times I'll just say "what a frog!") Itconfuses my ISFJ friend, because she still thinks of it as just a cuss word for me, but recently I tried to explain that "frog" sort of is synonymous to me to the fundamental core of humanity... like if you do something human, like smile or laugh or do something silly or something cruel, I guess the thought in my mind is best described as "a big frog in my head". I also use "frogging" to describe like... being, like doing, like being silly or floundering or just... flopping my way through life, I guess. To me "frog" has come to mean natural, humanity... a lot more than it would mean to someone else. 

But even outside that specific example, I'm always comparing people inwardly and making "metaphors" I guess. It has to be stable, but. 

One example of Ni I had today was, I was walking back to my dorm and it was raining and when I stepped under a tree I found that it was not raining as thickly there, even though of course some rain droplets were coming through. I thought of how, later, students would step under this tree and it would be dripping at the same rate and students would complain they were so wet, but to me with the tree rain falling over me I was grateful for it because I understood it was a relief in comparison to the unbridled rain that would pour down on me otherwise. 

Through this, I understood that it was like say when the economy is good, you think been the littlest inconveniences are terrible when really the same thing would be easy during a depression. Like the students who complain when the light leftover rain droplets fall from the tree in times of sunshine. It's an illustration of a principle, really. 

If that's Ni, then I think I definitely have Ni.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Rather solidifies ENFJ, if you ask me.
> 
> Loved your example of seeing dresses as easter eggs, and being surprised no one else did, haha. Ne wants to share those ideas, with everyone who will accept them. Polling people to gain more. I don't think that's you. You strike me as the type who needs to ruminate on those ideas, especially considering that you don't like changing your singular truth unless that truth is proven false.
> 
> What I meant to gauge was if someone just dumps some new idea, that cancels out your own visions, can you accept that, or will you need to ruminate it? Accepting the new ideas in that case sounds more Fe... they're educated, so you judge their opinions are more valid than yours. However you get strict when you just know people are wrong. Ha.
> 
> You don't really strike me as the type to just throw something hair brained on the table to see if it sticks. You just have these absolute truths you know are ideal, and it will take you awhile to believe anything else. I'd guess you can get rather scrutinizing and razor sharp at times, yes? It's ok to admit it, haha.
> 
> I like how the symbols of people kinda just come to you... and the wariness of admitting it. As if you don't want to come across as holier than thou, because Fe. Haha. Know those feels (but for different reasons).
> 
> Your reaction towards Imagine is what I'd expect from an ENFJ, btw. It's Ne the song. "Not realistic, guys. It's beautiful but it's not going to work." I can feel that razor sharpening and cutting into our fun, but Fe is trying to keep the peace because you understand the meaning it holds towards people. Personally, I don't care if it's realistic.... and who knows, if we all arm together, maybe we can change the world... utopias are pretty much the embodiment of Ne. You're not a whismical, idealistic dreamer at all.
> 
> Also just look at your reactions with Owsin... you can see the Ne and Ni contrast between the two of you, correct? All her dreamy little worlds... you're not really bonding with her in that regard. You're bonding through Fe.
> 
> Even your questionnaire had some Ni-Se in there.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah... that's Se girl. Si doesn't work that way. Sounds fun, but I'd be trying to prepare for it in my brain. Ni does the same... but in a different way. Si is just exacting about it's sensory environment. Se is just more expansive, confused by categories, hates labels, because it's soaking up the world, and labels deter from that. Si is filtering it out, and labels help to determine what the world is (especially when paired with Ti, haha). Si narrows sensory data, and Se expands it, whereas Ne expands intuitive abstracts, and Ni narrows them. Ne is more general, Ni absolute. I'm guessing the sensory world to you is expansive. I kinda have an idea of how things are, through my experiences, and if Ne doesn't aide, I'm hella stubborn and can panic if shit isn't how I planned and Ne isn't visiting me to change perspectives and see new opportunities of how things could go.
> 
> Also thank you. I'm not even that educated or pro. I just know how to sophisticate my words in order to look like Einstein. Learn as you go.


Aha, well I guess if I've convinced you of ENFJ again it's pretty solid ;D

And yeah, I'm totally okay if other people don't see stuff as I do. Honestly I in no way expect them to share my views. I mean, they won't... and I'm alright with that. How could they? I'm actually pretty freaked out if/when people understand my metaphors. I'm okay if people understand my feelings and where I'm coming from, but if they try to understand my vision and the core of me I get iffy. I guess Ne might not be as like that. 

Also yes, I definitely ruminate on ideas. I'm not going to suddenly accept a new idea if it doesn't fit my truth. This has gotten me into trouble after Church, my family always liked to sit at the dinner table and go "that was such a thoughtful thing Father So-and-so said today!" and too often I would be annoyed and go "no that's so stupid he isn't living my agape love in that speech, that's irrelevant, that's not what that passage meant anyway, mom he's a 25 year old priest who is immature anyway, he doesn't quite understand his own faith yet sadly" and then of course they would ask "and you do?" and I would sigh and inwardly go, "Well no, but I can see the singular truth of our beliefs while he is too caught up in his own feelings to even attempt that!"

Pretentious, yeah. My Sunday School teachers hated me. But it's just... what I do. 

And _gosh_ no, if someone just drops a new idea - for instance, if they say like "hatred if the one true force in the world" and goes on a rant about that, or if they go on a rant about how God is dead or something, I'll listen for something worthwhile in their spiel but I'm not going to just suddenly adopt their idea. That's absurd. If it's false, it's false, lol. No matter how many people think a false truth is a truth, it's not going to convince me to see their false truth until it truly makes sense to me. 

Absolute truths are definitely my thing. I might make a joke and say a stupid idea, but I can joke about it because I know it's not true. (Unfortunately, a lot of people don't get that  )

I really try not to be holier than thou, yeah. People don't realize it but I'm really actually convinced I'm the worst person in the world and everyone else is beautiful and perfect, but sometimes people don't see that when I go into my harsh musings about the world and people. 

It's funny that you see my reaction to "Imagine" as typical for an ENFJ! That's about exactly how I think about it. It's hilarious because growing up I was strictly anti communist, I realized after reading _The Giver_ at age 11 that communism was unattainable and a nice idea, but stupid. 

But I just give off his happy, peaceful vibe that makes people think I'm a communist for some reason. There was a girl in 10th grade who went "oh, I'll bet you're going to make a video about Marxism for your project, that's totally your vibe!" And I had to surprise her by quickly explaining that, no, I found Karl Marx incredibly stupid in regards to his expectations for humanity and whole communism might be a nice idea, truly it was completely unattainable in the long run and in... everything, really. People don't realize it because I'm so fluffy in my vibe I guess and I just look like a stupid puppy / 14 year old, but really I have some pretty harsh perceptions of reality and life and what will work out and what won't. 

Haha, maybe Oswin and I disagree on an Ne vs Ni level. I think that's sort of what we're coming to realize among ourselves too. It's interesting and good that you can see that difference and appreciate it though  

That's hilarious that my want for stupid adventure is Se! Like I think of this time that we had to evacuate from one of my Girl Scout camps, everyone was upset and crying and of course I comforted the younger girls who were literally freaking out but on the inside I was so calm. It was so exciting, exhilarating. Escaping from this camp in the middle of nowhere in the back of a truck, the rain pouring down our faces, having to navigate our way around the ridiculous flooding that went above our heads if we went down the wrong roads. It was awesome. I didn't tell people how awesome it was until after the fact, but in my head I couldn't stop smiling and laughing. (I might have said something like "This is so exciting!" but then another girl started crying harder and I sort of shut up about all that.) 

I also do narrow down things. I don't like expanding on ideas, to me that's frivolous. I don't know if I expand sensations, but I guess I do? I guess if you think I do and I have Se I probably do. 

Sorry if I'm not making much sense, I'm tired and trying to do this in between homework. But thank you again, Hoopla, so much for your help here.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Thank you enormously for coming by here and providing your opinion. I've seen you peeping around here for a while, but your lack of a comment was making me wonder if our convictions regarding my type were too ridiculous to be helped
> 
> I never even opened a _Redwall_ book. I knew it was sort of like _Warriors_, but I guess I didn't want to have yet another obscure animal fantasy book for my peers to make fun of me for.
> 
> But it sounds very interesting. Maybe even similar to _Warriors_, (maybe) - _Warriors_ was also a story that largely existed without magic, which had a different set of rules than our world, but a decently fair consistency to the world nonetheless.
> 
> In more serious matters... It's actually a little bit interesting/cute/sad/desperate or whatever, because knowing my type has allowed me to look at ENFJ descriptions and go, "That's how I want someone to someday be able to describe me." I want those typical ENFJ traits. I want to be able to be an effectual leader. I want to be able to emotionally support other people. I want to be a guide to others I guess, but not in the aloof way that the INFJ descriptions say INFJs are... I want to be a guide to many people, a approachable person who can be strong but also ultimately helpful, dependable, trustworthy. A person who can he come to knowing she can enact change in someone's life.
> 
> Honestly, as silly as it is, I think that's what I like most about identifying as an ENFJ now. It gives me that healthy version of myself to aim for. I mean of course any type can lead, but an ENFJ is said to have an easier time inspiring, helping, and teaching than an ENFP or an ESFJ would... and those are oddly very important qualities for me to acquire later in life.
> 
> Ah, regarding which kind of NFJ I might be... That is something to consider.
> 
> On one hand, I love people. People are at the forefront of what I do - whether I'm just walking down the hall, I'm always aware of people, smiling at people, avoiding people of they want to be avoided, or even if I'm writing an essay on literature and trying to figure out what the message of this book is for humanity. And honestly, that's why I'm a History/English double major as well - I want to know about humanity. I just love us. And of course, there's a topic in the 2 forum right now about how INFJ 2s just feel so deeply about humanity in a way other types don't... I don't know. It still feels so strong in me. Like everything I do is with other people in mind, and it's impossible for me to do that classically INFJ thing of seeing through facades and being suspicious of others because even now with everything, with my age and my illnesses, I can't help but see everyone as a fundamentally good person, a soul, first.
> 
> But I mean, Ni-dom makes sense in some ways. Mostly when thinking about my childhood. I was very perceptive of social hints even when I was four, and I recall doing things like explaining to my mom that "No mom, I can't sit over there, those kids are more popular than I am and we can't do that" and just in general, I was the friendliest and most attention-needing child. Very Fe.ni don't remember having insights of anything when I was that young, just that I was happy and had a few friends who I absolutely loved. But after I was five, all of that changed. I was the weird kid, the loner kid, and of course I _wanted_ friends, but I went around weird ways to find her. Like at one point I convinced myself that I needed to be weird to get friends (because, you know, the popular kids always had that one weird thing that defined them, whether they were obsessed with running in their spare time or had a ridiculous collection of butterflies at home), and I went about in odd ways distinguishing myself from others. I wore all pink one year. I made sure everyone knew I watched Barney. I was very preoccupied in second grade especially with finding a book series to define me, because I felt that if I could be defined by a single book series like this popular girl in my class was defined by her love for _A Series of Unfortunate Events_ then I could be just as popular as she was.
> 
> You would think an Fe-dom would know better than to employ these unusual ,ethics of friendship, no?
> 
> If I was truly an ISFP, that could be kind of cool. I love ISFPs.
> 
> But I don't think I'm Fi, again. I might have thought I was the anti Fe for a series of years, but now that I truly understand the differences better I am convinced I use Fe, for the reasons exhibited and explained here.
> 
> Thank you again for your input. It is greatly appreciated.


Haha, no problem. I'd been thinking about making a reply, but couldn't find the right moment.

I never got around to reading Warriors, even though the idea sounds great. I might try to pick it up sometime.

Back on topic, I think that's the thing that caused me to initially doubt ENFJ even when a lot of evidence points towards it. I'm not sure if it's an E2 want to appear as an ENFJ would (or should?) look, because Fe dominant holds an idea of being 'more selfless' or 'more about others' than Fe aux.

I'm wondering if Ni-Se has something to do with strong considerations on humanity. I have strong feelings about them myself, although a lot less positive (turning into severely critical - probably why I like sci-fi). I think it's good to have a positive view on people and the way you phrased it is probably indicative of Ni-Fe, although I'm still seeing a sort of 'airiness' which comes across as perceiving dominant, rather than judging dominant. I think that having 2 as your E-type would skew things slightly, because the motivation of 2s is to appear useful and considerate to others, which comes across as more typically Fe in MBTI. I know it's poor evidence, but the two ESFJs I've known have been a lot 'harsher' in how they come across (maybe harsher is the wrong word, maybe something more like their energy comes across as very turned-outward and they take up a lot of non-physical space - you couldn't forget they were there, basically).

That's an interested point you bring up about Ni dominance. I've had the same kind of thing since I was young - that awareness of where 'not to be' or a sort of hyper-awareness about where others are (i.e. when walking down the road, I make sure I'm not in the centre of the pavement, because then people wouldn't be able to get around me, or in a supermarket, I'll move my mum out the way of other people - although my motivation may be a little different in that it's partially just because it feels like the right thing to do, but also then they won't have to say 'excuse me' or notice me). The wanting to be popular is probably more E2, as the focus there is being noticed favourably by others, whereas Fe is just an objective judging function based around the general concepts of what is 'right' or 'wrong' (unlike Fi where those come from a very internal place and often disagree with outside ideals).

I think an Fe dominant could make mistakes such as that, but it seems more indicative of Ni trying to see a pattern where there might not be any - if those people are popular, what's the link between them? There's probably no link other than they said/did the right things at the right time, came to school with friends they'd already made, or just had a sort of confidence or air around them that attracted people (usually less developed/self-confident people).

A side-note: you also seem to use Ti every-so-often, although I can't find an example at the moment. Ti being more apparent (and Se seeming almost non-existent) leads me to think Fe-aux, so INFJ. It's a fine line though.

Also, yeah, to be honest I really don't see ISFP, it was more pointing out which type you would be if you used Fi dominantly, which I don't think you do. Plus, your Ni is far too strong.



alittlebear said:


> Now I will say I know some INFJs who love _Harry Potter_. A girl I had take the test who got INFJ and identified strongly with it was the absolute biggest HP fan I've come across, and then there's a MBTI blogger on Tumblr (readingontheroof) who is for-sure an INFJ, who loves thinking of "Marauders headcanons" for fun. It might be more of a generational thing honestly, like maybe Si adults enjoy HP more but for the Gen Z kids it can be for anyone.
> 
> I also think of one girl I know who is an ISFJ who loved HP and LOTR. As well as this girl I know how who is ISxJ and loves those two as well. I guess I can see how it would be appealing to them.
> 
> I don't daydream a lot about Tolkien's world - or any fictional world, honestly, save experimenting with plots for my own characters - but I would say I prefer it to Rowling's world. It makes so much more sense, it's so much more metaphorically, ethically, and philosophically relevant. I've seen _The Silmarillion_ described as "the quintessential ISTJ book," but honestly I just loved it. It made sense of everything in LOTR, secured some of the Catholic analogies that previously I was just probing the truth of. I can't wait to read _Lord of the Rings_ again, now knowing for sure (or for my sure) what the analogies truly are about.
> 
> But, yeah. Regarding _Harry Potter_, it didn't impress me perhaps because it was too familiar. And it was so familiar seemed convenient, like it wouldn't stand on it's own without the contemporary world we live in almost. If that's understandable.
> 
> And yes I am going to practice writing We'll see how this summer goes.


I have to say, I definitely agree with you on both HP and LOTR. While HP was just kind of bland to me (I mean, I loved the ideas in Chamber of Secrets - it was the only book I really enjoyed - but they were still stuck in that school, not exploring outside, not seeing the magical world much), LOTR had a large, complex fantasy world very unlike our own. It gave me something more to visualise as I read. But it wasn't something I really thought much on afterwards. I enjoyed it, but it didn't have the special something which could catch my imagination and halt it from its own wandering to take note.

I'm interested that you write. Could you explain why you enjoy writing and how the process happens for you? (I'm also into writing fiction, to an almost obsessive level, and I can use it as an effective way of trying to get angles on people.)


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Now I will say I know some INFJs who love _Harry Potter_. A girl I had take the test who got INFJ and identified strongly with it was the absolute biggest HP fan I've come across, and then there's a MBTI blogger on Tumblr (readingontheroof) who is for-sure an INFJ, who loves thinking of "Marauders headcanons" for fun. It might be more of a generational thing honestly, like maybe Si adults enjoy HP more but for the Gen Z kids it can be for anyone.
> 
> I also think of one girl I know who is an ISFJ who loved HP and LOTR. As well as this girl I know how who is ISxJ and loves those two as well. I guess I can see how it would be appealing to them.
> 
> I don't daydream a lot about Tolkien's world - or any fictional world, honestly, save experimenting with plots for my own characters - but I would say I prefer it to Rowling's world. It makes so much more sense, it's so much more metaphorically, ethically, and philosophically relevant. I've seen _The Silmarillion_ described as "the quintessential ISTJ book," but honestly I just loved it. It made sense of everything in LOTR, secured some of the Catholic analogies that previously I was just probing the truth of. I can't wait to read _Lord of the Rings_ again, now knowing for sure (or for my sure) what the analogies truly are about.
> 
> But, yeah. Regarding _Harry Potter_, it didn't impress me perhaps because it was too familiar. And it was so familiar seemed convenient, like it wouldn't stand on it's own without the contemporary world we live in almost. If that's understandable.
> 
> And yes I am going to practice writing We'll see how this summer goes.


I love Naria, Hogwarts, and Middle-earth. Though, I do find HP the most enjoyable to read (less dense than Tollers, more fleshed out than Lewis).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> Haha, no problem. I'd been thinking about making a reply, but couldn't find the right moment.
> 
> I never got around to reading Warriors, even though the idea sounds great. I might try to pick it up sometime.
> 
> Back on topic, I think that's the thing that caused me to initially doubt ENFJ even when a lot of evidence points towards it. I'm not sure if it's an E2 want to appear as an ENFJ would (or should?) look, because Fe dominant holds an idea of being 'more selfless' or 'more about others' than Fe aux.
> 
> I'm wondering if Ni-Se has something to do with strong considerations on humanity. I have strong feelings about them myself, although a lot less positive (turning into severely critical - probably why I like sci-fi). I think it's good to have a positive view on people and the way you phrased it is probably indicative of Ni-Fe, although I'm still seeing a sort of 'airiness' which comes across as perceiving dominant, rather than judging dominant. I think that having 2 as your E-type would skew things slightly, because the motivation of 2s is to appear useful and considerate to others, which comes across as more typically Fe in MBTI. I know it's poor evidence, but the two ESFJs I've known have been a lot 'harsher' in how they come across (maybe harsher is the wrong word, maybe something more like their energy comes across as very turned-outward and they take up a lot of non-physical space - you couldn't forget they were there, basically).
> 
> That's an interested point you bring up about Ni dominance. I've had the same kind of thing since I was young - that awareness of where 'not to be' or a sort of hyper-awareness about where others are (i.e. when walking down the road, I make sure I'm not in the centre of the pavement, because then people wouldn't be able to get around me, or in a supermarket, I'll move my mum out the way of other people - although my motivation may be a little different in that it's partially just because it feels like the right thing to do, but also then they won't have to say 'excuse me' or notice me). The wanting to be popular is probably more E2, as the focus there is being noticed favourably by others, whereas Fe is just an objective judging function based around the general concepts of what is 'right' or 'wrong' (unlike Fi where those come from a very internal place and often disagree with outside ideals).
> 
> I think an Fe dominant could make mistakes such as that, but it seems more indicative of Ni trying to see a pattern where there might not be any - if those people are popular, what's the link between them? There's probably no link other than they said/did the right things at the right time, came to school with friends they'd already made, or just had a sort of confidence or air around them that attracted people (usually less developed/self-confident people).
> 
> A side-note: you also seem to use Ti every-so-often, although I can't find an example at the moment. Ti being more apparent (and Se seeming almost non-existent) leads me to think Fe-aux, so INFJ. It's a fine line though.
> 
> Also, yeah, to be honest I really don't see ISFP, it was more pointing out which type you would be if you used Fi dominantly, which I don't think you do. Plus, your Ni is far too strong.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say, I definitely agree with you on both HP and LOTR. While HP was just kind of bland to me (I mean, I loved the ideas in Chamber of Secrets - it was the only book I really enjoyed - but they were still stuck in that school, not exploring outside, not seeing the magical world much), LOTR had a large, complex fantasy world very unlike our own. It gave me something more to visualise as I read. But it wasn't something I really thought much on afterwards. I enjoyed it, but it didn't have the special something which could catch my imagination and halt it from its own wandering to take note.
> 
> I'm interested that you write. Could you explain why you enjoy writing and how the process happens for you? (I'm also into writing fiction, to an almost obsessive level, and I can use it as an effective way of trying to get angles on people.)


Alright, there's a lot here. And I have yet to learn how to quote neatly, so I'm just going to try to go for it all and respond at once. Hopefully it's not too confusing. 

Warriors was cute when I wasn't an adult. You still might like it, I don't know, it's a series I would recommend to children and I know a few adults who cherish it, but unfortunately not many. It has countless cliches, but that's sort of what made it so great. 

Oh, and I find it so funny you say you couldn't find the right moment to reply! I do that as well. Goodness bless the poor people who have to wait for me to find the right time to text them back, to message them back, to respond back. It doesn't make much sense, but I always have to find just the right moment for my voice to be as I would like it to be with them it's weird and my Fi friends especially get frustrated with it, but that's what I do. 

Hmm. I can see how E2 would make a difference, yeah. And we are pretty settled on E2 now - I might think in a 1 way, but I don't look or act like one at all, and I don't exercise Sloth at all like 9s do (not to be arrogant, it's just... not a sin I suffer from. If anything I care too much) 

One thing though, we sort of have excused my softness and my mild nature to other things on my Enneagram topic? One, I'm probably SO/SP, but also because I've got 6 somewhere in my fix (of the phobic sort) as well as GAD which makes me feel very aware of other people, and makes me go out of the way to be "submissive" socially in a way, like I just try to make myself as small as possible. Which, yes, is the opposite of what one would expect from an Fe-dom, but I think a lot of it has to do with the anxiety. 

And one thing I've noticed is that I actually don't make myself very small. For example, I ws thinking today after seeing @Oswin 's topic with the songs how I really related to this one (and I was partially wondering if it showed my Fe or not, eh) 



I felt invisible growing up. I just wanted a friend, someone to notice me, connect with me, to have what the other girls had, but it was so hard for me. (You might have seen me mention this before, I reference it a bit, but I do blame it on external factors... I was the only student who lived miles away from everyone else, so I couldn't play with the other kids after school ever. I also had a few disabilities, in including being unable to walk at times and walking "funny" when I could walk and having a terrible lisp that made me almost incomprehensible in speech, which sadly I do think actually turned some kids off. It wasn't that they were cruel of course, it was just that children are skeptical of what is odd and unfortunately I came across as very odd. I think that's where my social anxiety kicked in, and I started excluding myself because I felt unworthy, turning from the outgoing and friendly, bright little kid I was pre elementary school into just an inquisitive, sensitive girl who did her absolute best not to get into trouble with her teachers. 

However, now I recognize that... Maybe I was invisible growing up, who knows (honestly it's hard for me to access pre trauma memories without cringing, so it is a bit difficult to know in any way what I was like growing up, but I'm definitely not "invisible" now. In my General Education classes I stand above the others (not meaning to, just judging by my perception of the situation) with my loud opinions and lack of fear in expressing them. In the classes where I'm with upper level students, I stand out because I'm freaking adorable. Adorable and annoying, but also endearing, and my professors enjoy teasing me or listening to me (depending on the professor, of course). Some of the students don't like me, but... well, I've made a few friends in my classes, which is nice. 

But, what I'm trying to say - I'm really not invisible. I draw recognition. It's not always good recognition I get, but I think it's pretty difficult to not notice me. Heck, the ChikFilA workers have even memorized me. Every time I order they smile and share looks with each other (I always order a fifty cent cup of water, which is the oddest request, and I'm convinced they talk about me because whoever I ask for this for suddenly smiles when I ask for water and goes "a fifty cent cup?," which they didn't do at the beginning of the semester when I started needing my cup), and I know that in high school the lunch ladies really liked me, and just loved me actually, in some cases. All I did was politely request my food, but I guess that garnering their attention or something. I mean, I'm just not an invisible person, I enjoy the fruits of... my personality, I guess. 

Yes, I _completely_ do that when I walk around, like I'm always subconsciously adjusting myself to the people around me! It makes me a little skittish, but at least I'm not abrasive. (One of my mother's coworkers got a little flustered onetime because we were walking one time and I kept moving myself from side to side for him as to not get in his way, and he couldn't keep track of where I was.) 

Last night I was going to timidly admit that "well, I actually do have an internal compass of what's right and wrong...," but really, I don't. As I've said multiple times, I come across different ways to different people, even about political things. It's to the point where I honestly don't know what I believe, or who I'll vote for, because I one don't think I have a right to an opinion because I know nothing of real relevance to the reality of politics and two because I think, if I vote this way my dad will be disappointed in me, but if I vote this way I will be going against my friends! Good thing I still have a year and a half to figure out that crap. 

I do have a moral compass, but for me it's just "live by love". Basically, don't hurt people. Treat people like people. Don't be a crappy person. And if I see someone being picked on, it doesn't matter to me if society or the people with think that's okay - I'm going to stand up for that person. I'm going to frame it in a kind way that makes sure it doesn't seem I'm judging the person who is being unkind / bullying, but I'm going to stand up for them just the same. (Another reason why I didn't get along with the AP kids at my school, meh.) I don't have, as my mom does, a strong revulsion to certain things like stealing, lying, cheating. Is someone hurt? Will someone be hurt? No? Then what's all the fuss about! I can become a bit of a self a roadbed and self righteous martyr when standing up for someone, but not because like it invades my morals, but just because.... Don't hurt people, you know? I just can't understand it when people hurt others. But that aside. 

Also yeah, the popularity thing could be Ni. Like no one else would think like that, right? Go out of their way to be weird even though like all they want is to be accepted and loved? Yet that's what I did, which I know makes me sort of a contradiction. 

About the Ti... Yeah, that makes me wonder too, a teeny bit. I'm actually pretty good at school, and my professors/teachers have never remarked that I'm too emotional or illogical in my papers or arguments. (I do get in trouble sometimes for using too much pathos, but I've learned to reign that in.) I do relate though to Ti inferiority. When I'm down, I suddenly want to make sense of the entire world, find absolute truths, which is something I don't think I do as much when I'm really healthy. (I mean I haven't been really healthy in a while, if ever honestly, but if I remember correctly I tend to just want to be helpful / productive / positive and learn stuff and understand the world (not obsessively though like... now, say) when I'm healthy. I can't relate like that to Se inferiority. Not that I use a lot of Se, but I don't feel hindered by my Se as I might very well be hindered by my Ti. (If you want to see an example of my poor Ti, you can look at any of my posts in the debate forum. I'm a mess logically, honestly.)

I just loved the fifth HP book. Glorious. I finally got used to the writing, and... the community... I loved all of the bits with The Order of the Pheonix, and the whole Dumbledore's Army thing was like a dream. Also Luna was in it, and I loved Luna when I read it  I also loved the seventh book, of course, for its sheer brilliance, the emotions, the character development, the perfection... That's how you end a series. It was glorious. I hope to accomplish something as magnificent when I write, although of course I know I will never achieve what Rowling did there. Still a nice inspiration, though. 

It took me forever to get into LOTR. Absolutely forever. I had a friend - probably an ESFP - who was obsessed with Lord of the rings, and she tried to get me into it... But it just wasn't my thing. We got into HP together, but it just didn't work out with LOTR. Of course I watched the movies to be polite, and I read her fan fiction, but it just didn't work out besides that. I had no interest. 

Flash forward to last summer. Lord of the Rings - like it's sad but true, sorry - was what helped me through my trauma. It was my coping mechanism. I could read about this world where everything was right, where it was truly a fight against evil, where even though the good guys suffered they always won, where right always conquered wrong, where people always got just rewards. Of course I knew our world wasn't at all like that, but it was so nice to just linger in that logical and ethical world for just a little while. It took me an entire summer to finish the trilogy, but it held a big place in my heart, and really kept me going. 

Apart from that though, I don't really linger in fictional worlds? 

I mean, okay. Like when I was in seventh grade I did that fan girl thing (I went through my fan girl stage properly and quietly in middle school, so I got it out of the way before it was detrimental and embarrassing to my future [i know girls going through their fan girl stage now in college! and sometimes in my head I'm just like "cute"], but it's still shameful to think about my fan girl phase, you know) where I wrote down AUs for the books I liked and made my own OCs for them. What characters I would date, how the characters would see me, all that funny stuff  Honestly it was pretty Fe - I wanted to think of how the characters would perceive me, and was realistic to the point where I wrote that even my favorite characters would see me as annoying while certain characters I hated would love me, just depending on their personalities and an honest thought to how they would seems - but it's something I did (and something I used to justify my Fi-dominance a long time ago, haha) 

And I also would connect books to songs. That's the only way I could enjoy songs, honestly, by connecting them to something else. I never connected them to myself, though... which was so different from everyone else, you know? Everyone around me would love a song because it reminded them of their childhood or whatever, and I would be like "I love this song because it makes me think of such and such from such and such book!" Of course I didn't often say that out loud, because I knew that obsessively relating songs to books was in no way socially acceptable  

And like in that way I guess I daydreamed. To this day, I will spend hours, waste hours, just pacing around connecting songs to literature or my story (I have a topic about this actually lol, I'll try to link it in a second). But I never imagined myself in that world. 

EXCEPT of course when I was a little girl and like we would play The Little Mermaid and I would be Ariel and my newly made parents would jump to participate and role play with me. Or when I was five-seven and I would play this game called Hound and Dog with my Si-dom cousin, and I think I was often preoccupied with these little worlds of mine then. Not to mention the imaginary friends I developed as a result of not having very many actual and real friends. But I think in a wayhabing such a big imagination is jus something children do, and in any case I turned more to books and taking care of my sea monkeys by the time I was nine, and by the time I was eleven / ten I was entering my fan girl phase and no longer needed my delusional imagination as much. 

Oh, and just to add another Ni/Fe thing - we were discussing the book we're reading in class yesterday (_Crime and Punishment_, in case you haven't caught on) and my professor asked us how we "related" to the story. And my spiel that day was that I _didnt_ relate to it. I mean, I don't relate to books anymore? Even when I read Warriors I was frustrated because to me it was me reading the story omnisciently, not me merging with the characters (I mean that's a little delusional? I'm not a fictional character, lol). Sometimes I read literature later and think about myself - I related to Hester Prynne my senior year, because I pretentiously thought I was bearing the weight of my social sins or something and was a social outcast or whatever, and sometimes I would flip back through that beautiful _The Scarlet Letter_ book to feel sympathy for myself - or if, like, it's about trauma (like a lot of war stories really help me cope, because a lot of times they're infused with the author's trauma and the feelings are very relatable to me, the stories help me see that I'm not alone and that yes, even though it seems impossible we can all recover) (it makes me hopeful). but I don't just... like, read a book and think "oh, I relate to what he's feeling! I'm like him in this way, that's why I love him!" Not me. I am more prone to just analyze literature and characters and etc and connect it to my understanding of the world, I don't get much enjoyment usually from seeing myself as the character. 

Ack, that's long. I'll withhold from talking about my writing and stuff, because I'm very excited to talk about that and yet I don't know if it's the right time for me (I want to explain it sort of in the right way, you know? And partially like talking about writing - which for me is a passion - is a privilege, and I want to make the most of it but not be too babbly. You know.) 

Thank you again for your help, and I thank you for reading this long rambling post of mine assuming you've made it this far


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Here's a few examples / a deeper explanation of how I relate songs to books http://personalitycafe.com/book-music-movie-reviews/511898-relating-songs-other-things.html

(Also @Fuzzystorm , I know I haven't replied in a while to that thread, but I will soon! I get distracted from threads easily, sorry, but I would still like to discuss with you in the near future  )


----------



## Cesspool

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, there's a lot here. And I have yet to learn how to quote neatly, so I'm just going to try to go for it all and respond at once. Hopefully it's not too confusing.
> 
> Warriors was cute when I wasn't an adult. You still might like it, I don't know, it's a series I would recommend to children and I know a few adults who cherish it, but unfortunately not many. It has countless cliches, but that's sort of what made it so great.
> 
> Oh, and I find it so funny you say you couldn't find the right moment to reply! I do that as well. Goodness bless the poor people who have to wait for me to find the right time to text them back, to message them back, to respond back. It doesn't make much sense, but I always have to find just the right moment for my voice to be as I would like it to be with them it's weird and my Fi friends especially get frustrated with it, but that's what I do.
> 
> Hmm. I can see how E2 would make a difference, yeah. And we are pretty settled on E2 now - I might think in a 1 way, but I don't look or act like one at all, and I don't exercise Sloth at all like 9s do (not to be arrogant, it's just... not a sin I suffer from. If anything I care too much)
> 
> One thing though, we sort of have excused my softness and my mild nature to other things on my Enneagram topic? One, I'm probably SO/SP, but also because I've got 6 somewhere in my fix (of the phobic sort) as well as GAD which makes me feel very aware of other people, and makes me go out of the way to be "submissive" socially in a way, like I just try to make myself as small as possible. Which, yes, is the opposite of what one would expect from an Fe-dom, but I think a lot of it has to do with the anxiety.
> 
> And one thing I've noticed is that I actually don't make myself very small. For example, I ws thinking today after seeing @Oswin 's topic with the songs how I really related to this one (and I was partially wondering if it showed my Fe or not, eh)
> 
> 
> 
> I felt invisible growing up. I just wanted a friend, someone to notice me, connect with me, to have what the other girls had, but it was so hard for me. (You might have seen me mention this before, I reference it a bit, but I do blame it on external factors... I was the only student who lived miles away from everyone else, so I couldn't play with the other kids after school ever. I also had a few disabilities, in including being unable to walk at times and walking "funny" when I could walk and having a terrible lisp that made me almost incomprehensible in speech, which sadly I do think actually turned some kids off. It wasn't that they were cruel of course, it was just that children are skeptical of what is odd and unfortunately I came across as very odd. I think that's where my social anxiety kicked in, and I started excluding myself because I felt unworthy, turning from the outgoing and friendly, bright little kid I was pre elementary school into just an inquisitive, sensitive girl who did her absolute best not to get into trouble with her teachers.
> 
> However, now I recognize that... Maybe I was invisible growing up, who knows (honestly it's hard for me to access pre trauma memories without cringing, so it is a bit difficult to know in any way what I was like growing up, but I'm definitely not "invisible" now. In my General Education classes I stand above the others (not meaning to, just judging by my perception of the situation) with my loud opinions and lack of fear in expressing them. In the classes where I'm with upper level students, I stand out because I'm freaking adorable. Adorable and annoying, but also endearing, and my professors enjoy teasing me or listening to me (depending on the professor, of course). Some of the students don't like me, but... well, I've made a few friends in my classes, which is nice.
> 
> But, what I'm trying to say - I'm really not invisible. I draw recognition. It's not always good recognition I get, but I think it's pretty difficult to not notice me. Heck, the ChikFilA workers have even memorized me. Every time I order they smile and share looks with each other (I always order a fifty cent cup of water, which is the oddest request, and I'm convinced they talk about me because whoever I ask for this for suddenly smiles when I ask for water and goes "a fifty cent cup?," which they didn't do at the beginning of the semester when I started needing my cup), and I know that in high school the lunch ladies really liked me, and just loved me actually, in some cases. All I did was politely request my food, but I guess that garnering their attention or something. I mean, I'm just not an invisible person, I enjoy the fruits of... my personality, I guess.
> 
> Yes, I _completely_ do that when I walk around, like I'm always subconsciously adjusting myself to the people around me! It makes me a little skittish, but at least I'm not abrasive. (One of my mother's coworkers got a little flustered onetime because we were walking one time and I kept moving myself from side to side for him as to not get in his way, and he couldn't keep track of where I was.)
> 
> Last night I was going to timidly admit that "well, I actually do have an internal compass of what's right and wrong...," but really, I don't. As I've said multiple times, I come across different ways to different people, even about political things. It's to the point where I honestly don't know what I believe, or who I'll vote for, because I one don't think I have a right to an opinion because I know nothing of real relevance to the reality of politics and two because I think, if I vote this way my dad will be disappointed in me, but if I vote this way I will be going against my friends! Good thing I still have a year and a half to figure out that crap.
> 
> I do have a moral compass, but for me it's just "live by love". Basically, don't hurt people. Treat people like people. Don't be a crappy person. And if I see someone being picked on, it doesn't matter to me if society or the people with think that's okay - I'm going to stand up for that person. I'm going to frame it in a kind way that makes sure it doesn't seem I'm judging the person who is being unkind / bullying, but I'm going to stand up for them just the same. (Another reason why I didn't get along with the AP kids at my school, meh.) I don't have, as my mom does, a strong revulsion to certain things like stealing, lying, cheating. Is someone hurt? Will someone be hurt? No? Then what's all the fuss about! I can become a bit of a self a roadbed and self righteous martyr when standing up for someone, but not because like it invades my morals, but just because.... Don't hurt people, you know? I just can't understand it when people hurt others. But that aside.
> 
> Also yeah, the popularity thing could be Ni. Like no one else would think like that, right? Go out of their way to be weird even though like all they want is to be accepted and loved? Yet that's what I did, which I know makes me sort of a contradiction.
> 
> About the Ti... Yeah, that makes me wonder too, a teeny bit. I'm actually pretty good at school, and my professors/teachers have never remarked that I'm too emotional or illogical in my papers or arguments. (I do get in trouble sometimes for using too much pathos, but I've learned to reign that in.) I do relate though to Ti inferiority. When I'm down, I suddenly want to make sense of the entire world, find absolute truths, which is something I don't think I do as much when I'm really healthy. (I mean I haven't been really healthy in a while, if ever honestly, but if I remember correctly I tend to just want to be helpful / productive / positive and learn stuff and understand the world (not obsessively though like... now, say) when I'm healthy. I can't relate like that to Se inferiority. Not that I use a lot of Se, but I don't feel hindered by my Se as I might very well be hindered by my Ti. (If you want to see an example of my poor Ti, you can look at any of my posts in the debate forum. I'm a mess logically, honestly.)
> 
> I just loved the fifth HP book. Glorious. I finally got used to the writing, and... the community... I loved all of the bits with The Order of the Pheonix, and the whole Dumbledore's Army thing was like a dream. Also Luna was in it, and I loved Luna when I read it  I also loved the seventh book, of course, for its sheer brilliance, the emotions, the character development, the perfection... That's how you end a series. It was glorious. I hope to accomplish something as magnificent when I write, although of course I know I will never achieve what Rowling did there. Still a nice inspiration, though.
> 
> It took me forever to get into LOTR. Absolutely forever. I had a friend - probably an ESFP - who was obsessed with Lord of the rings, and she tried to get me into it... But it just wasn't my thing. We got into HP together, but it just didn't work out with LOTR. Of course I watched the movies to be polite, and I read her fan fiction, but it just didn't work out besides that. I had no interest.
> 
> Flash forward to last summer. Lord of the Rings - like it's sad but true, sorry - was what helped me through my trauma. It was my coping mechanism. I could read about this world where everything was right, where it was truly a fight against evil, where even though the good guys suffered they always won, where right always conquered wrong, where people always got just rewards. Of course I knew our world wasn't at all like that, but it was so nice to just linger in that logical and ethical world for just a little while. It took me an entire summer to finish the trilogy, but it held a big place in my heart, and really kept me going.
> 
> Apart from that though, I don't really linger in fictional worlds?
> 
> I mean, okay. Like when I was in seventh grade I did that fan girl thing (I went through my fan girl stage properly and quietly in middle school, so I got it out of the way before it was detrimental and embarrassing to my future [i know girls going through their fan girl stage now in college! and sometimes in my head I'm just like "cute"], but it's still shameful to think about my fan girl phase, you know) where I wrote down AUs for the books I liked and made my own OCs for them. What characters I would date, how the characters would see me, all that funny stuff  Honestly it was pretty Fe - I wanted to think of how the characters would perceive me, and was realistic to the point where I wrote that even my favorite characters would see me as annoying while certain characters I hated would love me, just depending on their personalities and an honest thought to how they would seems - but it's something I did (and something I used to justify my Fi-dominance a long time ago, haha)
> 
> And I also would connect books to songs. That's the only way I could enjoy songs, honestly, by connecting them to something else. I never connected them to myself, though... which was so different from everyone else, you know? Everyone around me would love a song because it reminded them of their childhood or whatever, and I would be like "I love this song because it makes me think of such and such from such and such book!" Of course I didn't often say that out loud, because I knew that obsessively relating songs to books was in no way socially acceptable
> 
> And like in that way I guess I daydreamed. To this day, I will spend hours, waste hours, just pacing around connecting songs to literature or my story (I have a topic about this actually lol, I'll try to link it in a second). But I never imagined myself in that world.
> 
> EXCEPT of course when I was a little girl and like we would play The Little Mermaid and I would be Ariel and my newly made parents would jump to participate and role play with me. Or when I was five-seven and I would play this game called Hound and Dog with my Si-dom cousin, and I think I was often preoccupied with these little worlds of mine then. Not to mention the imaginary friends I developed as a result of not having very many actual and real friends. But I think in a wayhabing such a big imagination is jus something children do, and in any case I turned more to books and taking care of my sea monkeys by the time I was nine, and by the time I was eleven / ten I was entering my fan girl phase and no longer needed my delusional imagination as much.
> 
> Oh, and just to add another Ni/Fe thing - we were discussing the book we're reading in class yesterday (_Crime and Punishment_, in case you haven't caught on) and my professor asked us how we "related" to the story. And my spiel that day was that I _didnt_ relate to it. I mean, I don't relate to books anymore? Even when I read Warriors I was frustrated because to me it was me reading the story omnisciently, not me merging with the characters (I mean that's a little delusional? I'm not a fictional character, lol). Sometimes I read literature later and think about myself - I related to Hester Prynne my senior year, because I pretentiously thought I was bearing the weight of my social sins or something and was a social outcast or whatever, and sometimes I would flip back through that beautiful _The Scarlet Letter_ book to feel sympathy for myself - or if, like, it's about trauma (like a lot of war stories really help me cope, because a lot of times they're infused with the author's trauma and the feelings are very relatable to me, the stories help me see that I'm not alone and that yes, even though it seems impossible we can all recover) (it makes me hopeful). but I don't just... like, read a book and think "oh, I relate to what he's feeling! I'm like him in this way, that's why I love him!" Not me. I am more prone to just analyze literature and characters and etc and connect it to my understanding of the world, I don't get much enjoyment usually from seeing myself as the character.
> 
> Ack, that's long. I'll withhold from talking about my writing and stuff, because I'm very excited to talk about that and yet I don't know if it's the right time for me (I want to explain it sort of in the right way, you know? And partially like talking about writing - which for me is a passion - is a privilege, and I want to make the most of it but not be too babbly. You know.)
> 
> Thank you again for your help, and I thank you for reading this long rambling post of mine assuming you've made it this far


DAMN that's a big wall of text!


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## Pressed Flowers

Cesspool said:


> DAMN that's a big wall of text!


Very observant of you 

Edit: also good of you to quote, haha. I was afraid there would be an unnecessary duplicate of it when I first saw it had been quoted


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## Cesspool

alittlebear said:


> Very observant of you
> 
> Edit: also good of you to quote, haha. I was afraid there would be an unnecessary duplicate of it when I first saw it had been quoted


Are you mocking me?


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## Pressed Flowers

Cesspool said:


> Are you mocking me?


Only the first part, teasingly. Sorry, I can seem rude in my teasing sometimes. I didn't mean any harm ^^


----------



## Cesspool

alittlebear said:


> Only the first part, teasingly. Sorry, I can seem rude in my teasing sometimes. I didn't mean any harm ^^


T'sall good


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## Deadly Decorum

Cesspool said:


> DAMN that's a big wall of text!


Did you read it all?


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## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Did you read it all?


Did _you_ read it all? 

I'm nothing if not needlessly wordy.


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## Pressed Flowers

I took another MBTI test for the first time in a few months, and my result was a little amusing


> ENFJ
> Extravert(1%) iNtuitive(50%) Feeling(75%) Judging(56%)
> You have marginal or no preference of Extraversion over Introversion (1%)
> You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (50%)
> You have distinct preference of Feeling over Thinking (75%)
> You have moderate preference of Judging over Perceiving (56%)


1% extroversion. Wow. 

That said, of course I'm not one to take these tests seriously. I'm just pleased that I'm testing as a Judger, since one of the biggest things for me was the insecurity that I always tested right on the borderline between J and P. (Particularly that I always got INFP on the tests. I guess my understanding of myself has been enhanced since I last took the MBTI assessment in October.) (also, my introversion expressed here on the test probably has a _lot_ to do with my social anxiety anyway)

I'm going to reply to the few responses I haven't gotten around to yet, but I'm also probably going to look at the child descriptions for INJ and EFJ kids and consider which one fits me best soon. Thank you again to eberyone who has helped me on this thread, and hopefully we can secure my extroversion or introversion soon.


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## Pressed Flowers

@laurie17 I'm going to answer your questions about writing, but under the cut so we can avoid a long wall of text again 


* *






> Could you explain why you enjoy writing and how the process happens for you?


In one of my classes this semester, we read _To the Lighthouse_ In _To the Lighthouse_, autobiographical character produces a work of art in order to salvage her memories of that particular moment, to capture her experience of that moment. And it really makes sense, because she's an INFP. Fi/Si. It makes sense that she would create art to capture the moment, to capture the fleeting moment of that memory. 

However, my professor (who also might be INFP) wanted to make the statement that _every_ piece of art was produced in order to capture a moment, in order to preserve a good memory. We went around the room, and girls agreed with him. No idea how they justified it, but they all more or less said, "Yes, that's correct. When I create art, I create art to preserve a certain memory." 

I disagreed with this entirely. I wouldn't count myself an artist, I explained, because I only wrote and I didn't write exceptionally well, but I certainly did not write to secure a memory. I wrote to preserve my vision of the future. To cement my understanding of humanity and human nature. I write to share some hope and lessons about love with the rest of the world, to try to open up the world to others. I write to inspire people. I write in the hope of adding something to the world, preserving a part of me, and to me my story and what composes it somehow composes the entirety of my being... I don't know how - I don't relate to any of the characters save two minor ones - but it does. It's the message I want to leave for humanity. It's the piece of me I want to live on, regardless if my name does or not. 

That's just an opening, I guess, to how I feel about writing. To answer your questions more directly:

*Why do you enjoy writing?* 

Gosh. Why do I enjoy writing. Unfortunately at this time it's a bit hard to remember why I enjoy writing, because it's been almost impossible to write here lately with the trauma (every time I write I end up write about trauma, and as I mentioned, my writing class has helped me push through this, but I can't say it's been enjoyable.) I think part of me used to enjoy writing to create. It was wonderful to be able to look at my work and go, "Wow. I wrote that." In order to share it. In order to model other writers who also did wrote, to think "Maybe someday I can inspire a little girl like this inspired me." (As Fi as that sounds ) 

I also love writing because I love to think about my characters. I love to plan out my stories, to make everything fit in my mind, to make my worlds and plot lines meaningful and to make characters that made me care about them and cry as I wrote their stories. Characters also helped me feel... because like, it's hard for me to feel sorrow for myself, to cry for myself, to relate to myself, to listen to songs and think of something, to have something to muse over. I wrote to... write... to express my view of the world, as I said, to create characters that represented life and who had meaningful journeys that could touch and move people. 

Sorry, I know I'm answering this question weird. Honestly I can't say why I enjoy writing, because I don't know... but I feel so compelled to do it nonetheless. As odd and irrational as that may be. 

It's an interesting question though. I'll have to ponder it some, I suppose, especially when I'm rigorously writing this summer. 

*How does the process happen for you?*

Slowly, suddenly. I'll get a bunch of ideas in a night, refine those, get a basic structure for the plot and such, and then I'll have a dry spell until, say, I'll be reading a literary work and I will realize that, "oh, this is sort of the same theme as in my novel..." and I will see how I can fit a similar idea in my story, I'll refine that a bit, add it to the rest of the story, mesh those ideas naturally in my head until they're harmonious and natural, then continue the process, on and on and on. Along the way I will (ideally; this stopped a bit during trauma) write down my ideas, refine them on paper to capture them (I have a notebook of my story ideas and plans and stuff that I worked on for a year, complete with personality analyses, full names and meanings, and archaeological plans and maps of the setting, along with a ton of other crap), listen to songs to get in the mood, and then continue planning. Sometimes I'll be hit by inspiration and I will write... but it's difficult for me to write consistently. I have to be in the right mindset for each story. I'm not sure what "the right mindset" is, but I know when I have it for each chapter. It's sad - I don't produce much - but I think what I do produce is better than what I could have produced had I rushed. 

And it works some. So far I have over 100 pages single spaced of my story, which isn't a lot, but given that I have a lot planned out I don't think it's too shabby a number. It's further than I've gotten with my other stories. 

This is generally how it goes. 

As for how I acquire my ideas... Sometimes they happen, again, suddenly. I'll be listening to a song, then I'll see it, my idea, and I'll touch it and grasp it and probe this little world I've envisioned and test it to see if it holds, if I could get a worthwhile idea out of it, if I could hold it up and actually write it successfully... and if it passes that test, I develop it. I create the world, I find the themes, I figure out what message I want to share with my story, and I go for it. 

My current story, my big story, it started with... a vision, I guess. I saw a girl walking in a world of gray, metaphorically trapped in a closed room but in reality trapped in a closed world, a world where no one was free and no one knew love or hope or life or humanity, a girl who was beginning to figure out the truths of the world, about true freedom, but who had to do this silently because her own world was so closed by unspoken and non tangible but still very real walls. 

Later, I was sitting on my couch, studying or something in the back room of my household, and I think I got this idea of... What if there was still slavery? What if slavery happened today? Would slaves have TVs? How would people deal with that ethically?

And the ideas must have merged, they came together somehow to explode somewhat like a semi permanent firework into a shower of... this world, this idea that's stuck with me for three and a half years now. It was two nights before Christmas that I got the idea, in 2011... I had these ideas, but that's when it came together, I guess, in a plot. I don't remember exactly what I came up with then, but I made the idea, I got down some basic characters that still carried the essence of that one girl I first envisioned and fit into this world that I had thought of with my first idea. That's when the process began - my fictional world grew, was perfected, was harnessed in my notebook and with the many writings (beyond the official 100 pages) that I did on the side. 

If I didn't elaborate on the first one, I guess I did on the second question, ha. Don't know if that will give you any idea of my cognition, but that's how I work my worlds and write and such. Thank you very much for asking, as it does just make me happy to talk about writing and my writing and stuff.


----------



## 68097

> However, my professor (who also might be INFP) wanted to make the statement that every piece of art was produced in order to capture a moment, in order to preserve a good memory. We went around the room, and girls agreed with him. No idea how they justified it, but they all more or less said, "Yes, that's correct. When I create art, I create art to preserve a certain memory."


I'm shocked that you were the only one to argue with that. That is so ridiculous in the face of literature ... was every fantastical novel written to preserve a great memory or to capture a moment? Ha, ha. No.

You SHOULD continue writing. It sounds as if you have great ideas.

My process begins a tad differently. Something captivates me. A thought. An idea. A question. A story grows out from it, forming in my mind around it, bleeding out into a full fledged narrative. I have a beginning and a crucial moment. I work toward that, and allow Ne to do the rest. I don't have to plan it in advance, and at times my perspective shifts or changes certain characters, but I usually write exactly what I thought I would. My problem is rarely lack of ideas; it is lack of discipline. But, if I decide to discipline myself and sit down and do a chapter a day -- I do it. And I enjoy it, as it unfolds. It's rather like planting a bulb and seeing an entire garden flourish beneath your fingers.


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## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I'm shocked that you were the only one to argue with that. That is so ridiculous in the face of literature ... was every fantastical novel written to preserve a great memory or to capture a moment? Ha, ha. No.
> 
> You SHOULD continue writing. It sounds as if you have great ideas.
> 
> My process begins a tad differently. Something captivates me. A thought. An idea. A question. A story grows out from it, forming in my mind around it, bleeding out into a full fledged narrative. I have a beginning and a crucial moment. I work toward that, and allow Ne to do the rest. I don't have to plan it in advance, and at times my perspective shifts or changes certain characters, but I usually write exactly what I thought I would. My problem is rarely lack of ideas; it is lack of discipline. But, if I decide to discipline myself and sit down and do a chapter a day -- I do it. And I enjoy it, as it unfolds. It's rather like planting a bulb and seeing an entire garden flourish beneath your fingers.


Thank you  That's kind of you to say. 

Yeah... for me it's very different. Your way of doing it sounds beautiful, as well as productive, but I think about doing that and I'm sure I would just make an incoherent mess. I have to have my little world thought out in order to write within it. And for me, the world is the strangest thing... because for me it's like I'm not creating the fictional universe, but in discovering it. And every time I write, I'm trying to make this world that I happened to discover more real to those who enter it when reading. 

I'm not sure what "allow Ne to do the rest," but it does sound lovely  I guess I get the same thing done with my Ni though, more or less. 

I also have this huge dependency on chapter plans. I _love_ to know where I'm going. Heck, I need to know where I'm going. If not it seems like I'll never get there... and admittedly, I haven't gotten there, but at least I can visualize myself writing through he chapters and that's enough for me. 

I also don't write what I thought I would... ever. I can admire you for that. Matching my writing with my vision is so incredibly difficult for me. Same with getting a bunch of ideas... I suppose this would secure Ni, but I absolutely do not get a thousand ideas at once. Metaphorically speaking, it's like those parts in Brave where Merida chases the wisps. I get the first inklet of an idea, then I scurry to the next hint I have towards my idea, on we go until I realize what world I'm imagining and then "explore" it. I have to cling to my wisps, because they don't come to me very frequently. 

It's also good to know I'm not the only one who found my professor's statement slightly off point.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I love Naria, Hogwarts, and Middle-earth. Though, I do find HP the most enjoyable to read (less dense than Tollers, more fleshed out than Lewis).


This is more than a few days late, but to respond to this as well (and catch up on m responses so far, yes?) - 

It's just funny to me, I suppose, or different, because those worlds didn't excite me too much. I've had my phases of getting into LOTR and HP, as I've mentioned, but my imagination doesn't linger there. Narnia I particular I could not stand... I wouldn't mind following the movie series, if I could ever get ahold of them, but I could not bear the writing style. Too whimsical, airy. Like Rowling, but more intolerable. I guess I would feel most safe in Tolkien's world, since it is so well defined and thought out, but then I feel odd because there are different races, and that makes me feel off. I think it's the same for everything, with me... I like it when we're dealing with humanity, just humanity. I don't want little random mice or even nice symbolic lions, and I don't want us to be divided into Dwarf and Hobbit and Elf and Man. And I don't want some of us to be magical, and others not. I think that's why I prefer the Arthurian world, and, in some ways, the _A Song of Ice and Fire_ world. Everyone's a human, and everyone's on equal ground, physically at least. They might not be given a chance, but at their soul they have one. I like that quite a bit.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I judge quickly? But then again, I'm not sure what would count as judging. I judge kindness and unkindness quickly, I suppose. It doesn't take me long to figure out "That person shouldn't be talking to that person like that, that is bullying." But I don't make judgments like, oh that's a bad person, or oh that's what we should be doing... My judgments are all based on the feelings of others, I guess. And I think I make those judgments pretty quickly? Hmm. I might have to do more research on that.
> 
> I agree with you about INFJs not being deeper than any other type. But still, like... I think of Michael Pie.rce's INFJ video, which I think is pretty fair. Even there he was saying how INFJs are constantly looking to make a better future. I think I might have done that when I was little, a little, but now I think my Se is almost more developed. I'm much more willing to accept things as they are now and deal with this current reality, and only think in futuristic terms when I'm studying or in that critical thinking mode. (Plus the random tho'it's that come to me, but I'm certainly not plotting out a better future for humanity every moment like the Piercevideo made me think I FJs do.)
> 
> Interesting about politeness. I agree, but I guess I feel more strongly about it? Like with politeness I'm trying to just get by (9), but I'm also seeking to make sure everyone who I come across is taken care of and not bothered by their interaction with me. I don't know, it's hard to explain why politeness is such a thing with me, but it is.
> 
> But on another hand, I don't understand some basic rules of politeness. I often have to model other people's behavior because I don't pick up on natural social rules very easily. And sometimes I forget things, like I know it's super important for me to put my napkin in my lap when I eat at a fancy restaurant with my dad but I can be very forgetful of this sometimes.
> 
> At first thought I would say I only had one friend at a time, and I relate to having a bubble... But I wonder, how would I know if I have an introverted bubble or if what I think is an introverted bubble is actually just a pure experience of extroversion? I'm not sure, honestly.
> 
> Oh, and continuing on the friend thing, I would say I have one friend at a time but really that's not true. It's hard for me to grow close to someone, to consider them a "best" friend as I think best friends should be, but I have a ton of people I would consider myself friends with. Part of my lack of best friends I think can be attributed to my not being able to see anyone beyond ten minutes at school every day (because I wasn't allowed to contact people outside of school :/) but at college when that rule went away... I have three friends I would consider myself very close to, and that's just from one semester. I have countless people who I am on good terms with and who I would consider myself "friends" with.
> 
> I don't know if I stick things in stories to be weird... Probably what makes my stories so dern boring, ha. I tell a story to tell a story, to go into characters... not to explore weird ideas or what ifs or anything like that. Hmm.
> 
> I'm actually weird about not noticing character development. Heck, that reminds me - I've been thinking a lot throughout my life on how I don't even notice my own character development. When I was 13 I thought I was just as smart as I was at 11, when I was 15 I thought I was just as smart as I was at 13, so on and so on. It's funny because I can easily see my progress if I look at my diary or something, but internally I feel the same. I do kind of judge my own development on how I interact with others differently, how I improve socially... but on the inside, even though it's irrational, I feel very much the same person with the same mind and the same heart and everything as I felt I was when I was like, ten. (Even though of course I'm not.)
> 
> I don't think about it much, but I find it curious that I'm so unaware of my own personal growth.
> 
> I can't comment on writing a first draft, ha. I didn't start finishing stories really until this semester, and writing for my class has been my first experience with writing drafts and such.
> 
> But relationships are so important to me. While I love my characters, what I really are about is how they interact with other characters... this platonic best friend relationship, this sister-brief relationship, this budding middle school relationship between this stubborn ISFJ girl and pig-headed ENTP kid.
> 
> I mean... I guess I think about character development, like when I listen to songs and I'll think about the character growth, how the character experiences that. Like there's a Taylor Swift song from her last last album called The Lucky One and it's incredible how well it fits one of my characters, and even though I don't particularly like that character and she's one of the few non POV characters I have I love thinking about her when I listen to the songs, thinking about all she's gone through and all that.
> 
> But when I write, I really shine in dialogue. I do it so realistically. (That's what my teacher who read it and was enchanted by my story told me, at least.) My dad can't stand it, and he was begging me to add more action, more adventure, more interesting stuff, but my teacher tried to explain to me that that's not my strong point, that dialogue is and I need to stick with that. (I also wrote a brief play, which of course was mostly dialogue, and my drama teacher was really impressed by that as well.)
> 
> I was thinking about love of animals just a few hours ago! Now that I'm home for the summer I'm like spending time 24/7 with the family dogs while my family is away during the day, and I absolutely love them. I've been thinknf how fortunate I am, we are, to have these lovely dogs in the house like we do, to bring life and laughter and humor and fun and warmth to our household. I think there is something wonderful about animals... They really are human, they feel things as we do, but they're like...Balls of humanity, almost. It's hard to explain, but they are more immediate expressions of our good and bad qualities. It's... beautiful, ah. But hard to explain.
> 
> Personally I think I loved animal fantasy because to me it displayed human nature in such a crystallized way. I think I've already said this, sorry, but like in Warriors so many things could be addressed. Divorce, death, betrayal, abuse, tyranny, even big things like the Holocaust. Books with animals can go more deeply into themes because you aren't tiptoeing around subjects to not make them so direct. You don't have to be as politically correct or think about "can children handle this"... It's just how it is, it's animals, you assume it's okay. (And there's some pretty shocking stuff in animal fantasy. Of course Richard Adams did some weird stuff with the rabbits, but David Clement-Davies... Man, those books were geared towards eleven year olds and they had a mom killing her children to save them from pain, and heck in one book there was this villain who I think literally kidnapped a kid, a human kid, and ate his eyes out or something. That stuff is raw. Raw.)
> 
> At least I'm not the only one who has to go back and add details to a story! Might be one of those general things Intuitives tend to stink at.


If you judge first, then consider afterwards, it's more likely that you use a judging function dominantly. There was also the idea that your aux function backs up your dominant function, so an INFJ would have a direction they were keen on following (Ni gut instinct for where they want to go with life etc.) and this would be backed up with Fe. I.e. 'I want to create a better world' backed up with 'this is a 'good' value' etc. Whereas for ENFJs it might be more 'These are good values' backed up by 'I feel I should follow/view them in this way'. The aux function is always secondary to the dominant, although it's a lot easier to tell with judging functions overall, as they're a lot stronger than perceiving.

I don't know, I've heard a lot about ISFPs working for a better world, as well as INFPs, although it's more of a 'what I think is better' than 'what most people might prefer'. 

I think that sounds like very pronounced Fe - trying to create a nice atmosphere with people - although that can be seen in Fe aux types too (they're usually more subtle about it, in my experience). Haha, the napkin thing might simply be forgetting minor details. Etiquette is very complex.

What do you think friends 'should be'? This almost sounds Si-ish in that there's an expectation of something being a particular way. I can relate to not feeling that close to people mostly. I think it's interesting how a few people have seen me as their close friend over the years when I feel like we haven't got to know each other at all.

Dialogue seems like an Fe thing. It took me a while to train myself to write good dialogue and it's still stilted every so often. I think with writing, it's best to initially ignore comments from people, revise the drafts, then get some feedback - but always with a pinch of salt and without losing the integrity of the story. A story written to please a wide variety of people will usually end up confused.

I'm not sure what the slower pace could be indicative of. Maybe lower Ne/Se. I find it interesting you say that, because a lot of my stories really range in tone, from fast-paced and almost thriller-like to slow-paced fantasies etc. I don't know what that's about either (I'm currently openly considering all POVs on my type, so...).

Animals are a lot more genuine than people, in many way, I think. There's less social stuff going on their because their societies aren't like ours and don't go by the same rules. I think that's one reason I love animals so much - they're also much more genuinely loving than lots of people I've met. 

I agree with some kid's books that have animal protagonists are very dark. Robin Jarvis has lizards wearing the skin of mice and, yes, David Clement-Davis had a lot of slightly horrific aspects to his stories. I think it's good, really. It's a bit dull to always have books 'protecting' children from things they could sometimes benefit from learning about i.e. life and death.

Yeah, details are hard. I tried to add some in at one point and my friend asked why there were exactly three lamps in one room and if it was important. I'm getting better with working out the necessary details now...


alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ I think I mentioned these posts to you earlier when we were talkng about how I was as a child. These are some posts I made on my Enneagram thread a few months ago just with some random facts about young me.
> 
> Looking at them I don't see how they would be much help! except you can see some of my Fe and some of my Se, but... Here they are anyway, if anyone is curious for some random facts about Little Me
> * *


Hm, I'm not entirely sure. It seems very Fe to me, so maybe Fe dominant is right then? I mean, there's also a lot of empathy going on here, which can be any type, but is an unusual and wonderful trait (I know so many people with poor empathy, it's really depressing to have to explain why they should go and visit their parents sometimes - and this is with people who love their parents very much but just don't think to go and talk to them really...).


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## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I do want to explore everything, but ultimately, I can weed through it and discard things, unlike higher up Ne’s. I can always tell an NP writer, because they leave all the odd bits in that didn’t need to be there. Sometimes their stories hit little flukes and side trails and then meanders back to the topic. I’m not like that, but always propelling toward a conclusion. I’m a good editor for that reason. I read through things and know what doesn’t have to be there, so I strip it out and tighten the story in the process.


As a person who was in a class about short stories this semester... _Yes. _
Could not stand the "Ne" stories that went down little rabbit holes and never really had a reason to go down any rabbit hole that was consistent throughout the entire thing. I mean it was always fun,nut it also was always like "okay but does this story legit have no meaning" and that really annoyed me tbh


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## Pressed Flowers

@laurie17 sorry again for putting you and @Fuzzystorm off, I've been super busy with my new "job". I'll respond though as soon as I get a spare moment to think for a while without too much grogginess in my mind space. Thank you for continuing to help me with my type, I appreciate your patience and endurance!


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## FearAndTrembling

alittlebear

I saw an interview with Ani DiFranco for the first time yesterday. First time I heard her talk. I always assumed she was a Fi user. She is an ENFJ. I think a good example of one:


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## Pressed Flowers

@FearAndTrembling thank you for the example! I've been only able to see the opening pictures at first, and I was thinking "oh dear, that's not me at all...," but now watching the videos it's cool how I actually can see myself behaving in the way she is. I talk like that (when in interview style, when discussing with someone), my tone is like that, and I think I look like that in conversation as well. 

This is actually kind of affirming. Thank you  (And yes, I would also assume someone associated with PETA would have some Fi going on, ha. But that doesn't seem to be the case with her.) 

A few of you might know this - I know @Living dead has been involved in this conversation - but my Fe has been questioned a little on the Enneagram Mistype thread. I am open to being corrected about my type if my understanding of the feeling functions is off, but for the time being I think I am secure that I am at least an FJ. Please feel free to correct me otherwise, but until I am shown that my understanding of the functions and such is off, here I am, in acceptance of it. 

(I say this because I have been questioning my Fe-ness these past few days while working. There was one girl who seemed obviously an ESFP or ESFJ (I know they're very different but she was just very outgoing, good with people, and I'm not yet good at physically spotting Fe and Fi) and she was so talkative and such a people person that I was doubting my own people skills. But then I remembered - I am socially anxious. Even though I try to repress that within me, and I have been taught by my parents to repress it, it's honestly not something that's going away until I work on it and I do suffer from it. I'm also _very_ good with people once you set me up with that, and I was just as much of a customer service oriented and people friendly person once I'm in a position where I can be. Also, just talking to my parents tonight I remembered how well my voice is always filled with emotion and used to convey emotion and how everything I say is just infused with emotion and warmth, how I'm always trying to be socially appropriate and doing things to appear a certain way. Yes, I may be a socially anxious and somewhat ineffective-seeming Fe user, but cognitively I'm an Fe user nonetheless. 

A bit of a ramble, but that's my assertion on the matter. Feel free to step in and correct me if my assertions are fallible.


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## Darkbloom

@alittlebear,no one seriously questioned your Fe-ness,trust me 

You are surely a Fe user,totally FJ.I did consider introversion though too for reasons some here explored a long time ago but it seems pointless because you could go both ways tbh,but the way you wanna be and talk about yourself makes me thing ENFJ.Better to just go with what feels closer than try to measure whether your Ni was a bit stronger at some points of your life or not and whether your Ti is really inferior.So yeah,I'd go with ENFJ,9w1.I think that makes perfect sense,and I mean it,_perfect_.


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## Pressed Flowers

I never know if I should take it as an insult when people tell me now inferior my Ti is. I know it's not meant as that, though, ha ;D (it's just so funny because having low Ti probably means like that you're illogical or something? And I think from some people they might find that insulting? But I'm like nah, who cares about Ti, I've got Fe galore, what else matters ) 

Thank you for your reassurance, @Living dead. It means a lot.  

I _still_ don't know how ENFJ and 9 go together, but maybe someone will address that in the mistype revelation thread soon.


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## FearAndTrembling

alittlebear said:


> thank you for the example! I've been only able to see the opening pictures at first, and I was thinking "oh dear, that's not me at all...," but now watching the videos it's cool how I actually can see myself behaving in the way she is. I talk like that (when in interview style, when discussing with someone), my tone is like that, and I think I look like that in conversation as well.
> 
> This is actually kind of affirming. Thank you  (And yes, I would also assume someone associated with PETA would have some Fi going on, ha. But that doesn't seem to be the case with her.)
> 
> A few of you might know this - I know has been involved in this conversation - but my Fe has been questioned a little on the Enneagram Mistype thread. I am open to being corrected about my type if my understanding of the feeling functions is off, but for the time being I think I am secure that I am at least an FJ. Please feel free to correct me otherwise, but until I am shown that my understanding of the functions and such is off, here I am, in acceptance of it.
> 
> (I say this because I have been questioning my Fe-ness these past few days while working. There was one girl who seemed obviously an ESFP or ESFJ (I know they're very different but she was just very outgoing, good with people, and I'm not yet good at physically spotting Fe and Fi) and she was so talkative and such a people person that I was doubting my own people skills. But then I remembered - I am socially anxious. Even though I try to repress that within me, and I have been taught by my parents to repress it, it's honestly not something that's going away until I work on it and I do suffer from it. I'm also _very_ good with people once you set me up with that, and I was just as much of a customer service oriented and people friendly person once I'm in a position where I can be. Also, just talking to my parents tonight I remembered how well my voice is always filled with emotion and used to convey emotion and how everything I say is just infused with emotion and warmth, how I'm always trying to be socially appropriate and doing things to appear a certain way. Yes, I may be a socially anxious and somewhat ineffective-seeming Fe user, but cognitively I'm an Fe user nonetheless.
> 
> A bit of a ramble, but that's my assertion on the matter. Feel free to step in and correct me if my assertions are fallible.


I also just noticed that ENFJ is perhaps less sure of themselves than INFJ and ESFJ. Which is perhaps is why they can appear to be like Ne by wandering. Like, I would not have the patience to explore my own type, or any others, to such a degree that you do. I start at the end of things, and work my way back. I have a need for closure. Like DiFranco, just kind of goes with the questions. An INFJ is less measured. They are at a detached, sped up pace of their own. Take DiFranco, make her weirder, colder, more focused, intense, faster, and she is an INFJ. 

Watch this nut for a few minutes. That is an INFJ:


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## FearAndTrembling

Why is mentioning people so difficult? How does it fuckin work? I can't figure it out. 

@%1;

Anyway, you mentioned that you have trouble telling Fe and Fi apart. Somebody made a thread recently asking if INFP deserve the "protector" label over INFJ. I made a post that I believe shows a difference between Fe and Fi:

I think the main difference is that INFJ is more people oriented. Fe is about people. Fi isn't necessarily. It is more about causes. The spirit of things. INFJ, and Fe, see things in the environment that need fixing. They are more nurturing. They attend to people more than causes. That is why they are "protectors" over INFP. INFJ could have no cause themselves whatsoever. Fi is always upholding some personal value. Fe is upholding harmony, which is really a type of order. A functionality. 

And Fe plays a social role. It sees what role is missing in the environment, and becomes it. Fills it. Which could be anything. They can be the bad guy just because they are supposed to be, or because that element is missing. I think Fe-Ti/Ti-Fe are more devil's advocate types than Fi-Te/Te-Fi, because of that. It will take an opposing side, sometimes as a service to people who are not present to do it for themselves. I argue other people's positions for them all the time. Even if I totally agree with the person I am arguing with, because there is an opposing side that isn't being given justice. And I will become that, even if it is being intellectually dishonest in the moment, it is being intellectually honest in the larger picture. Because it is giving justice to a side that isn't present. Fi doesn't think like that. lol


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## Pressed Flowers

@FearAndTrembling I don't know if that's the correct difference between Fe and Fi - it could be, but it's not an interpretation of the difference I've encountered before - but I think I would definitely be Fe in that sense. I am all about people. Like, constantly about people, I don't know how not to be about people. 

Even the other day, when you said I was using Fi. To me it wasn't about... the spirit of a cause, or whatever. I don't think that Fi users necessarily are about the "spirit of the cause" either - perhaps they are, but I can't fathom how one could be that and not care about like... helping people - but for me when I was upset about the treatment of people within psychiatry it was (and is) because I can't fathom how people are abused within that structure. I don't know how it could be about a cause. I think I might be misunderstanding you, because I just don't understand? For me everything is about people being hurt. I dislike a lot of psychiatry because it hurts people. I think certain aspects of the school system need to be revamped because it really, really hurts students (even though for me the school system has been peachy and I have only benefitted significantly from the current school system structure, I recognize that others haven't and to me that alone is reason enough to change it until it best fits the needs of students - and since it's impossible to best fit the needs of students, it should constantly be working towards best meeting the needs of students). I am upset by the wars in the Middle East because I know from reading about the treatment of the civilians there that the way they are treated and regarded takes a very negative toll on them, that it's certainly hurting the population more than helping. And from what I don't understand, they don't _want_ us there... I can't see why we would be forcing ourselves on them and causing radical negative changes in their lives in the name of "helping them" or whatever when really we're just bringing harm. 

Even what you're describing with taking different sides, being the devil's advocate. I try not to be the devils advocate when someone cares deeply and personally about something - I would never rant to a woman who had undergone an abortion about how it's wrong to be prochoice - but I will dawdle back and forth in conversation between my side just to cover all relevant points... and, yes, because I am considerate of the other side as well. I get uncomfortable when my dad asserts gay Conservatives are Superior and Onky Conservatives Are Fair And Can See Both Sides, but I also get very frustrated when I see those Tumblr posts that paint anyone with slightly conservative beliefs as truly Bad People. I don't even know if I have a political stance, but when you forget that people are people... not to mention that these beliefs in the heads of radical supporters of either side could very well influence their interactions with people who side with their personal opposition, and make them treat them with scorn, and to me I am bothered when anyone treats anyone with scorn. 

So, yes. I think I am definitely more an upholder of harmony. I still don't know what personal values or values are in general under the Jungian context, but from what I do know I do not possess personal values. I just don't like people being hurt, regardless who that person is or what that person believes or how despicable they may be or seem. They're a person. Their pain hurts me. That's what I know. 

(Also, to notify you go @ and then immediately out the name of the person you are trying to notify. Like @alittlebear, @FearAndTrembling. It's quite simple, but it can be confusing until you get the hang of it.) (But haven't you used the notify function before? Never noticed that you hadn't.)

Edit: but I do believe I was using Fi on the GoT thread when we discussed Jung the other day because I was mentioning something that was not commonly believed and I made a bit of a scene about it. That's not healthy Fi, but it wasn't my usual socially appropriate self either. I actually felt very embarrassed (as you and everyone could probably tell) because I was swept away in my passion about something that the others obviously didn't agree with. I can get that way about the topic, unfortunately. It's one of the few things I cannot see both sides of. 

But I wanted to clarify that I still did not see it as just, like, "the spirit of a cause." Perhaps FPs experience Fi that way, but I don't think I quite experience my little jolts of Fi that way (to my knowledge). It must still be influenced by my Fe even when it's primarily an Fi thing. Perhaps? Hmm.


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## Pressed Flowers

FearAndTrembling said:


> I also just noticed that ENFJ is perhaps less sure of themselves than INFJ and ESFJ. Which is perhaps is why they can appear to be like Ne by wandering. Like, I would not have the patience to explore my own type, or any others, to such a degree that you do. I start at the end of things, and work my way back. I have a need for closure. Like DiFranco, just kind of goes with the questions. An INFJ is less measured. They are at a detached, sped up pace of their own. Take DiFranco, make her weirder, colder, more focused, intense, faster, and she is an INFJ.
> 
> Watch this nut for a few minutes. That is an INFJ:


Edit: okay. Watching this video. 

I can relate to her intensity and I think the way her passion leaks into her voice. Of course I don't agree with what she's saying, but I can relate with hoe she connects so many things in life to this one thing that she perceives she understands very well, and which she has very complex opinions about. I can be wandering when discussing things I don't have strong opinions about, which I haven't thought deeply about, but if you get me talking about something I have contemplated for a while and I'm not having to be careful to be non offensive to people I can talk very much like this. (I talk like this, with this intensity and seemingly unfounded "knowing" with my ISFJ room mate, and she would sometimes get startled and think I was mad at her, but... No. Really I was just sharing some of my own understanding, not angry or much of anything but just sharing a link into my mind. If that makes sense. I wasn't quite like the girl here, but I think her body language, tone, inflection... That's quite like me when you get me in the right conversation and don't interrupt me.) 

Also @laurie17 sorry for not commenting yet! Your post and @Fuzzystorm's post are both very long, and I'm sorry for not replying yet, but I want to have time to respond. I've been so so so busy and exhausted these past few days, and I haven't been able to think a lot about things. Please know that I will still respond and as soon as possible (today or tomorrow)


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## FearAndTrembling

Yeah, you are definitely using Fe. You are actually doing what I describe, you are seeing the larger picture- how your action affects people all the way down the line. You can see how nearly everything is true, if looked at from the right angle. From the angle of the person who see it as true. Like a Muslim says "Allah gives me strength". That statement is both true and false. 

Unprovable in that there is literally no God in the sky beaming down power to the Muslim, but true in that the idea of Allah empowers the person. It is a psychological truth. A subjective truth. And whether one holds more value over the other is philosophy.

Fairy tales and religion are both true. They reveal truths. There are different kinds of truths. Most people only recognize are only objective truth. Peter Pan is fake. Jesus is real. Both are real. They represent what Jung would call psychological truths, what Kierkegaard would call "subjective truths". They touch on truths that cannot be verified in the outside world, but we still know they are true. They are often the most important truths to us. 

I brought up the case of a rapist. Say there is a bunch of rapes going around the neighborhood. I am not married, so I will use my parents as an example. Child rapes are happening around my parents hood. Cops come to the door, question my mother. My mom says, "My husband would never harm children that way." Now, to her, that is a very deep and important subjective truth. But what does that mean to the cop? Absolutely nothing. He doesn't share such a truth. It isn't an objective truth, it is a subjective one. But still as true to her as the earth going around the sun, and even more important. 

What feeling is, is realizing logic is incomplete. All logic requires some kind of value judgement. 

Feeling is a subjective value judgement, that is hard to intellectualize. It is not emotion, or sensation. It precedes sensation or emotion. The ancients actually didn't even distinguish feeling from sensation. I mean, thinking, and logic can only take one so far. There is a gap, that must be filled by a subjective value judgement, which Jung called feeling. It isn't passive. Jung actually made clear to distinguish the two. Well, actually feeling can be passive. But that isn't the rational feeling Jung does talk about. It requires intellectualization. Like, a girl just pulls feeling out of me. No judgement was made. She just extracted it from me, involuntarily. That is not rational feeling, to Jung. I think the biggest problem is that people confuse that passive feeling, with active feeling. Passive feeling actually is superficial. 

"The nature of a feeling-valuation may be compared with intellectual apperception as an apperception of value. An active and a passive feeling-apperception can be distinguished. The passive feeling-act is characterized by the fact that a content excites or attracts the feeling; it compels a feeling-participation on the part of the subject The active feeling-act, on the contrary, confers value from the subject it is a deliberate evaluation of contents in accordance with feeling and not in accordance with intellectual intention. Hence active feeling is a directed function, an act of will, as for instance loving as opposed to being in love. latter state would be undirected, passive feeling, as, indeed, the ordinary colloquial term suggests, since it describes the former as activity and the latter as a condition. Undirected feeling is feeling-intuition. Thus, in the stricter sense, only the active, directed feeling should be termed rational : the passive is definitely irrational, since it establishes values without voluntary participation, occasionally even against the subject’s intention."


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## Pressed Flowers

@FearAndTrembling The example of the woman and the accusation of her husband as a rapist makes me think...hmm. Of course I would do the same thing as her - express what a good man my husband is (hypothetically, obviously I'm a nerd who has only lightly dated lol) - but on the inside I would _know_ my words wouldn't matter. They don't care! They're going to arrest him because that's what they have to do. My words are useless. But I've got to make a scene to make my husband feel better, know I trust him, and to warm the heart strings of the police to give them an idea that this man is loved, that he is a good person, even if for their jobs they can't treat him as such. 

And, part of me upon reading that would think... How well do I know my husband? Someone can be a good person and lovable and still do terrible things. If you told me one of my family members raped someone, one of my family members who I hold dear and love... If it was true, I wouldn't say it wasn't. 

I once had a friend on another site who was trolling everyone. Everyone. Making new accounts, just being a troll, but an elaborate troll who was hurting people. They accused him of being the troll, and I responses gay he "would never do that, ever". But I was wrong. It was him. I guess I was using stupid subjective feeling. I wasn't mad at my friend though, more just irked with myself for being so false. (I already knew my friend was a troll, but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and hoping he ouldnt be *that* much of a troll.) 

But like, if someone told me one of my friends was talking behind my back... Of course they are. I wouldn't say they weren't. They can love and seem to value me but still express unkind opinions about me. Maybe that's along these same lines as the police and rape accusation situation?

With the case of the Muslim and his devotion, I can easily see the two truths. The two sides. Also, _yes_ about how seeing everything is true. I actually do this pretty unhealthy Fe thing where I will say something to appease someone - "oh yes, that dress looks lovely" - and even if I don't agree with it I twist it in my mind to make it true. And I do that with truth in general, like my mom or someone will go "that's a lie" and she will believe it's a flat out lie, but for me I'm already twisting it to see how it is true to that person, what they meant by it. On the surface that would seem Ne to me - twisting something, looking at different interpretations of it - but for me it is more about finding truth within the slight untruth, indirection to find direction, and I have seen this exact habit I first mentioned of twisting truth as something ENFJs are notorious for.


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## Pressed Flowers

also 
Didn't want to put this on SugarPlum's thread because it's entirely irrelevant to her but 


Living dead said:


> I need some time,but I will vote
> I really hate having too much information XD (is that type related???)


That's funny, Living dead. You seem to enjoy all the superfluous information on my Enneagram thread, and trying to figure out the puzzle of my personality type.


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## Darkbloom

Enneagram makes my head spin less.It makes heart hurt when it comes to finding my personal type but it's in a way more clear than MBTI.MBTI is like a huge million piece puzzle,enneagram is more of a really frustrating riddle with one word solution,at least that's how I see it 

Regarding information @SugarPlum's thread has so much "evidence" for probably all 8 functions lol,but in the end the answer is very clear in her questionnaire.But I can't say "I'm just ignoring everything you guys said in these 70 pages" XD,so I have to make sense of everything.

Are you feeling more certain of 9w1?


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## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Enneagram makes my head spin less.It makes heart hurt when it comes to finding my personal type but it's in a way more clear than MBTI.MBTI is like a huge million piece puzzle,enneagram is more of a really frustrating riddle with one word solution,at least that's how I see it
> 
> Regarding information @SugarPlum's thread has so much "evidence" for probably all 8 functions lol,but in the end the answer is very clear in her questionnaire.But I can't say "I'm just ignoring everything you guys said in these 70 pages" XD,so I have to make sense of everything.
> 
> Are you feeling more certain of 9w1?


Don't bring my Enneagram typing fiasco here, Living dead!

But yeah, 9w1 seems like a nice fit. I've still got to look over some stuff and I would still like to do a video next week to see if ENFJ 9w1 SO makes sense to others when observing me, because it is so uncommon, but from what I've seen 9 actually fits me exceptionally well. As @Swordsman of Mana said, I seem to have 2, but very small and weak 2. (Speaking of which, I have to respond to his question still about why I first was 2... That might take a while of consideration though. Hmm.)


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## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> Don't bring my Enneagram typing fiasco here, Living dead!
> 
> But yeah, 9w1 seems like a nice fit. I've still got to look over some stuff and I would still like to do a video next week to see if ENFJ 9w1 SO makes sense to others when observing me, because it is so uncommon, but from what I've seen 9 actually fits me exceptionally well. As @Swordsman of Mana said, I seem to have 2, but very small and weak 2. (Speaking of which, I have to respond to his question still about why I first was 2... That might take a while of consideration though. Hmm.)


Haha true,but maybe this is when we should try to connect ENFJ and 9w1?

I really think it's a perfect fit,even though I wasn't sure at first.But when I saw both how you relate to 2 and 9 beliefs in the same place it all made sense.
But it also makes sense why you thought 2 in the beginning.Btw your friends,have you reconsidered some of their types?

Sorry for bringing so much enneagram,I have to:laughing:


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## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Here's an Ni dom, if you want an example to compare yourself to:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxz3XtiDVVo


This is another example of an Ni user that has been discussed recently, but I don't relate so much with her. I relate to the intensity and her mode of telling, but like the last at the beginning made me feel uncomfortable because it looked so awkward,Ni mean obviously the crowd didn't mind and still loved her regardless but it seemed so weird, what she was doing with her hands. I would be much more affected by the audience in her shoes, probably waving but in a more open way, just smiling and drinking in their attention. (I can be a "ham" in that way. In one of the new typing thread someone said they weren't an extrovert because they couldn't stand being the center of attention... It's terrible but I love being the center of attention, as long as I'm comfortable with it, ha. Attention can be voice and influenced, both which I chronically crave.)


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## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> This is another example of an Ni user that has been discussed recently, but I don't relate so much with her. I relate to the intensity and her mode of telling, but like the last at the beginning made me feel uncomfortable because it looked so awkward,Ni mean obviously the crowd didn't mind and still loved her regardless but it seemed so weird, what she was doing with her hands. I would be much more affected by the audience in her shoes, probably waving but in a more open way, just smiling and drinking in their attention. (I can be a "ham" in that way. In one of the new typing thread someone said they weren't an extrovert because they couldn't stand being the center of attention... It's terrible but I love being the center of attention, as long as I'm comfortable with it, ha. Attention can be voice and influenced, both which I chronically crave.)


INFJ+9,more "introverted" and peace oriented than you are,definitely


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## owlet

alittlebear said:


> This is another example of an Ni user that has been discussed recently, but I don't relate so much with her. I relate to the intensity and her mode of telling, but like the last at the beginning made me feel uncomfortable because it looked so awkward,Ni mean obviously the crowd didn't mind and still loved her regardless but it seemed so weird, what she was doing with her hands.* I would be much more affected by the audience in her shoes, probably waving but in a more open way, just smiling and drinking in their attention*. (I can be a "ham" in that way. In one of the new typing thread someone said they weren't an extrovert because they couldn't stand being the center of attention... It's terrible but I love being the center of attention, as long as I'm comfortable with it, ha. Attention can be voice and influenced, both which I chronically crave.)


I think the issue here is that you're extremely empathetic (or appear to be), which can make it look like Fe dominance. I recently came across a different descriptor for Fe:


> as a base (1st) function (ESE and EIE) The individual is always in tune to the emotional flow surrounding him, and responds to it spontaneously and directly. He seeks out and creates activities where people are totally engaged in what they are doing. Something's value is directly tied to how much it arouses his or another's passion.
> He is highly proactive about steering the emotional flow in the direction he himself considers ideal to a given situation. He may, for example, try to cheer people with jokes if he sees that they are too gloomy or, conversely, to get people to be serious and concentrated if they are too carefree during a crisis situation. Nevertheless, he believes emotions should be expressed as honestly as possible.
> as a creative (2nd) function (SEI and IEI) The person is sensitive to the emotional atmosphere around him, either from an individual, or a group, or even from inanimate objects such as the landscape, the state of the physical environment he happens to be in, or his own emotional associations with the place or people around him. A positive emotional atmophere is essential for his sense of well being and inner peace, and he either tries to promote it himself by directly influencing it around him, or by simply moving away from the environment or the people causing a negative emotional environment in his view.
> For the SEI, this takes an on-the-spot aspect and is reflected in cracking jokes, trying to make people laugh, or simply moving away from people he perceives as affecting him negatively. For the IEI, this takes a longer-term perspective; so the focus, rather than being on the immediate emotional environment, is on the perceived longer-term emotional state of others towards the individual, and is reflected in trying to be on good terms with those he interacts with or seeking distance or protection from, or "preventively" attacking, those he sees as irremediably hostile emotionally.


(In Socionics, Base is dominant and Creative is auxiliary, so I thought I'd just include those two - the black L-shape is Extraverted Feeling)
From here: Extroverted ethics - Wikisocion

What do you think?

As a footnote: don't feel obligated to reply to my posts! Just respond to whichever bits you feel need responding to - I really don't mind


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Seems Fe to me. Of course there are definitely Fe users who do not give a crap about finding the good in someone, especially if there done harm to a lot of people, but I think that for some of us Fe/Ti makes us want to see the good in people or at least figure out what made them so inclined to do evil.


Yes, that's Fe. Fi/Te tends to be more like: "this person is bad, so I don't give a damn about them anymore, whatever." I hate it at times as it causes me to be a bit bitter towards people, and I dislike being anything but kind to everyone.


----------



## Dangerose

Fi-Te sounds tiring.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Oswin said:


> Fi-Te sounds tiring.


It is. Having a strong sense of who you are combined with the disliking of compromising yourself for others isn't always the best thing.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

That explains it, @TelepathicGoose. Nothing is worse for an Fe-dom than getting on the bad side of those cool FPs. If they decide they don't like you, it's eternal. Burns our souls, especially when we don't know what we did to violate the FP's moral code and always tried to be friendly and accommodating anyway. 

I'm definitely... not that. I couldn't hate a normal person if I tried. The one girl at my school I came very close to hating as a girl who liked to go out of her way to mock my autistic friend, she just sought to maim him as a person and rip him to pieces, and I also had a problem with her domineering friend who would make death threats to teachers and curse and intimidate the other kids to get what she wanted.... Of course both were among the most popular girls in the school... But even then I justified them. I heard a rumor that the girl who made fun of my autistic friend works at a strip club now, and I defended her then. I'd do it again. I'm just too nice. I can gossip like terrible, but if I even see my "enemy" put down I've got to do what I can to bring her up. It is exhausting, but very rewarding for me personally.


----------



## Immolate

Hm? Who said anything about hating a normal person? I've never told someone I hate them, even people who have treated me poorly. Hate is reserved for truly despicable human beings. I'm on my phone, so I'll get back to this in a bit.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Seems Fe to me. Of course there are definitely Fe users who do not give a crap about finding the good in someone, especially if there done harm to a lot of people, but I think that for some of us Fe/Ti makes us want to see the good in people *or at least figure out what made them so inclined to do evil.*


That's only reasonable, accomplished on my side by Te.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Ooh, maybe it has more to do with the thinking function than the feeling function! As in, Te is more likely to look at the external actions and judge them* in a comparably black-and-white way, see 'the facts of the case' *whereas Ti is looking at 'why, how' and it's more open-ended, more of a puzzle, a cog in the machine than a fact?


lol no

I also care about the why and how.

Apologies for the multiple posts.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yes, that's Fe. Fi/Te tends to be more like: "this person is bad, so I don't give a damn about them anymore, whatever." I hate it at times as it causes me to be a bit bitter towards people, and I dislike being anything but kind to everyone.


This depends on how you define "bad" and what you mean by not caring anymore. I may not care on a personal level about someone, but I still care about them as a fellow human being, that is, I wouldn't treat them poorly just because.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Te-Fi/Fi-Te is more "pure". It just is what it is. Fe-Ti/Ti-Fe have a delivery that is more for the audience, and sees both sides of the issue. Like INTP, will often add qualifiers of uncertainty, like "I don't know.." They say that a lot, before and after something. They soften it up a little. They know that there are many ways of looking at the issue.

I watched this documentary recently about these old arcade gamers chasing the Donkey Kong and other records. This guy is the biggest Te dom ever. Just blunt, constructive, objective thinking. An ESTP can be more aggressive, but they have it reeled in more because of Fe. Like compare this guy to Malcolm X. I also think this guy is an ESTJ, not ENTJ. But a Te dom for sure.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> That explains it, @TelepathicGoose. Nothing is worse for an Fe-dom than getting on the bad side of those cool FPs. If they decide they don't like you, it's eternal. Burns our souls, especially when we don't know what we did to violate the FP's moral code and always tried to be friendly and accommodating anyway.
> 
> I'm definitely... not that. I couldn't hate a normal person if I tried. The one girl at my school I came very close to hating as a girl who liked to go out of her way to mock my autistic friend, she just sought to maim him as a person and rip him to pieces, and I also had a problem with her domineering friend who would make death threats to teachers and curse and intimidate the other kids to get what she wanted.... Of course both were among the most popular girls in the school... But even then I justified them. I heard a rumor that the girl who made fun of my autistic friend works at a strip club now, and I defended her then. I'd do it again. I'm just too nice. I can gossip like terrible, but if I even see my "enemy" put down I've got to do what I can to bring her up. It is exhausting, but very rewarding for me personally.


Hate is an extremely strong word, as @shinynotshiny said, I would only hate a horrible, atrocious, monstrous person.

However, reading over the situation you just told, I was practically cringing. I could never forgive those two girls, they're just too mean. I don't care if I it mean of myself for not trying to find good in them, maybe if they were a bit nicer. But to mock an autistic kid? That's just absolutely _horrible. _ I cannot say I hate them, because I don't know them and hate is a horribly strong word, but from this I'd say I strongly dislike them. 

The way @shinynotshiny and I express Fi/Te may differ because I prefer Fi and she prefers Te, although I don't know.

Oh, and don't worry, at least for me (an ENFP) I am not easily offended, because my Ne can see all sides of things and see how you could've made an accident. However, I've read that Fi-doms are very easily offended and tend to stay that way.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Hate is an extremely strong word, as @_shinynotshiny_ said, I would only hate a horrible, atrocious, monstrous person.
> 
> However, reading over the situation you just told, I was practically cringing. I could never forgive those two girls, they're just too mean. I don't care if I it mean of myself for not trying to find good in them, maybe if they were a bit nicer. But to mock an autistic kid? That's just absolutely _horrible. _ I cannot say I hate them, because I don't know them and hate is a horribly strong word, but from this I'd say I strongly dislike them.
> 
> The way @_shinynotshiny_ and I express Fi/Te may differ because *I prefer Fi and she prefers Te*. :/


Age is also a factor 

I agree with you, Goose. I don't see the point in trying to befriend those girls, and that's all it really it is. Befriending, engaging. I don't have to hate them to keep my distance from people like that. Of course, I acknowledge the potential for them to grow as people. I'm not branding them "bad" or "avoid avoid avoid" for life.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Age is also a factor
> 
> I agree with you, Goose. I don't see the point in trying to befriend those girls, and that's all it really it is. Befriending, engaging. I don't have to hate them to keep my distance from people like that. Of course, I acknowledge the potential for them to grow as people. I'm not branding them "bad" or "avoid avoid avoid" for life.


Yes, of course. They may very well change in the future and become wonderful people, who knows. However, from what they are from that point, I wouldn't go near them. 

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that of course I may be more immature in my opinions due to my age. Sadly...


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yes, of course. They may very well change in the future and become wonderful people, who knows. However, from what they are from that point, I wouldn't go near them.
> 
> Oh yes, I forgot to mention that of course I may be more immature in my opinions due to my age. Sadly...


The "change in the future" was more for alittlebear 

And I wasn't calling you immature! I just have... ah... _more years_ of dealing with people :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> lol no
> 
> I also care about the why and how.
> 
> Apologies for the multiple posts.


Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise, just...hm. It feels like a different thing to me; I don't really understand the 'harshness' of the Fi-Te function set; can you sort of explain how you come to conclusions and then deal with them more clearly and specifically? It often seems black-and-white to me, I know there's more shades of grey involved but I think they may be invisible from my Fe standpoint)


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> The "change in the future" was more for alittlebear
> 
> And I wasn't calling you immature! I just have... ah... _more years_ of dealing with people :laughing:


More years for me to look forward to! :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

Also, alittlebear, I feel like your school is like one of those after-school special schools where people meanly call out 'four-eyes' and deal drugs in the hallways? Like, wow, I have never met people that...bizarre.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise, just...hm. It feels like a different thing to me; I don't really understand the 'harshness' of the Fi-Te function set; can you sort of explain how you come to conclusions and then deal with them more clearly and specifically? It often seems black-and-white to me, I know there's more shades of grey involved but I think they may be invisible from my Fe standpoint)


It's interesting you say this, because Fe-doms have been more black-and-white in my personal experience (as in, real life experience). As Goose pointed out, I have auxiliary Te and tertiary Fi. It doesn't make sense to judge someone in such a limited way. People are the product of their upbringing and personal experiences. They're shaped by their inherent nature as well as their environment. People are only born "good" or "bad" in fantasies. There is always more than meets the eye. That point of view is simply reasonable to me.

What do you mean by harshness? I'm not sure what you mean.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> More years for me to look forward to! :dry:


Stay strong :tongue:

Nah, it's not that bad. You'll do fine.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Stay strong :tongue:
> 
> Nah, it's not that bad. You'll do fine.


Hopefully :kitteh:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@TelepathicGoose @shinynotshiny I found something you two would never do that I did 

There was a girl in my school. She was sweet, but didn't like me. She did things that were just atrocious. She would bully my friend (who was not autistic, he was an abrasive Te-dom who was openly sexist, racist, etc... Obviously you can see where the girl was coming from, she's a Tumblr girl, but me this was my best friend [even though he later abandoned me] and I saw the good in him) and make mean remarks about him, and she also made remarks now that I remember about this girl who was autistic (also one of my best friends, she was such a kind girl) and... I mean, I could tell that she was rude and made unkind remarks about me behind my back, but of course you don't have proof for that. 

She was mean. She showed me that. But like I still found all the good in her? I followed her Tumblr account and just tried to humanize her to me, I tried to pull out all the abundant good things in her and recognize that he's she was flawed, but she was still nice. 

My Te-dom friend and my ISFP friend - both who hated her, and told me she was unkind about me previously - thought I was just doing that to mock her and tell them about her... But really I just loved making her human to me, because previously she was just this Popular Girl who was way over my head. We actually became mutuals on Tumblr, and she responds to my personal posts sometimes. She's still a bit of a frog, but she's almost a friend you know? 

I do that. If I find someone cruel, sometimes I go out of my way to figure them out and find a way to like them. It helps me not be too much of a self righteous piece of crap.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin is that the song at the end of the play? I love that song! It gives me some bad memories unfortunately so I haven't listened for a while, but I distinctly remember that I loved the song and found it an excellent representation of love.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin is that the song at the end of the play? I love that song! It gives me some bad memories unfortunately so I haven't listened for a while, but I distinctly remember that I loved the song and found it an excellent representation of love.


It's kinda in the middle)
Sorry about the memories(
Ha, the terrible sequel to Phantom has some sickly-sweet Fe (I think? maybe just F) songs which...I don't know, maybe you'd like them ) my INFP friend did, I just have a low tolerance for that sort of thing tbh)

* *




Sorry, I'm suddenly bothered that the only songs I can think of, that I like, are fairly Fi? Maybe I am Fi?? I usually _hate_ really Fe-ish songs....


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@emberfly I saw you lurking on my topic yesterday. Did you come up with any thoughts on my type that were different from the ENFJ typing most everyone else here has seen?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> It's kinda in the middle)
> Sorry about the memories(
> Ha, the terrible sequel to Phantom has some sickly-sweet Fe (I think? maybe just F) songs which...I don't know, maybe you'd like them ) my INFP friend did, I just have a low tolerance for that sort of thing tbh)
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm suddenly bothered that the only songs I can think of, that I like, are fairly Fi? Maybe I am Fi?? I usually _hate_ really Fe-ish songs....


I want to make a topic about the difference between Fe and Fi songs. I've wondered about it for too long. 

I think that @angelcat said that the Phantom is INTJ, and his songs reek with Fi? They make me very uncomfortable. They're obsessive. Christin(a?)'s songs are gentler, not as... intense to the point where the attraction seems as lustful.


----------



## 68097

Ah, but Poto's songs being lustful are part of their allure.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm going to have to go listen to one of his songs now. Brb.

Edit: Nevermind she's filled with that lust too

Yeah... I can see where people would love the Phantom. I can't put my finger on it, but I can get an idea of why.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Something about Si and Ni I noticed, particularly ENxJ, is that they are more sedated than ESxJ. The Ni doesn't have the intensity of Si there. ESJ have more energy than ENJ. ESJ are more present in the environment. They are more "there". 

Like the difference between and ENTJ and ESTJ trying to control things is quite different to me. The ESTJ, again, is more prominent. He is more present. More active. More alive. ENTJ is less blatant. Like Carl Sagan and Dick Cheney. Those guys are laid back. Compare them to that video game wizard. They are all con men, but ENTJ is a more abstract con. Everybody knows that gamer is a con man, as soon as he opens his mouth. It takes a while to figure out guys like Saga, Cheney and Obama are con men. The Ni makes them more disarming. They are like vampires. 

Se in the 3rd slot, with ENFJ and ENTJ, causes a slow down. One would think that inferior Se would be even slower, but that is where the system reverses itself. For ENFJ and ENTJ, Se is like a cruising gear. Overdrive. For INxJ, it is like first gear that we never use. We don't even know how to drive the thing. It is like our tail. It is cut off, or too short. It doesn't work like normal tails. So we wag it unnaturally and spastically to compensate. So I mean what I said that Obama is too "normal" to be an INFJ. He knows how to use his tail.

I also have this idea that Ni doms, and perhaps Ne doms too, walk fast. Talk fast. They move at a different pace than other people. Because of inferior sensing.


----------



## 68097

I think people love PotO because it's filled with unfulfilled desire, yearning, sadness, and loss. Everyone is on a journey; Christine cannot escape her past ("why won't the past just die?!") but her future is bound up in fear of what might happen as a consequence of disobedience to her "Opera Ghost / Angel of Music" (inferior Ne). Meanwhile, Erik desperately loathes his own face and fearsome features, so he thinks he can seduce someone into loving him by throwing up a veil, a guise, a magical barrier, by plying her with the gift of music, with soul-searching song, by teaching her, training her, thriving off the knowledge that because of him, she is loved, adored, his public face ("I am the mask you wear / You are the mask I wear"). Through others adoring her, he too is loved. (Hmm, maybe he is Fe after all.) It's all about his inability to accept himself; how his self-loathing and utter fixation on his hideous appearance sabotages him from finding true love, where had he been his true self -- mask or not -- he could have won over her heart easily. But no, his heart is as twisted as his face, because he chooses to embrace evil, to want to control rather than to invite. It's just all... deliciously deep and tragic and full of symbolism.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I want to make a topic about the difference between Fe and Fi songs. I've wondered about it for too long.
> 
> I think that @angelcat said that the Phantom is INTJ, and his songs reek with Fi? They make me very uncomfortable. They're obsessive. Christin(a?)'s songs are gentler, not as... intense to the point where the attraction seems as lustful.


Do it)
I . . . yeah, maybe that's why I'm thinking maybe Fi for me? I mean, I would probably use the word 'passionate' for them haha (not that he wasn't obsessive himself but the songs are passionate?) I just...if I'm being honest, I relate way more to the Phantom than Christine (Christine is more of my ideal self), and his songs as well...


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Do it)
> I . . . yeah, maybe that's why I'm thinking maybe Fi for me? I mean, I would probably use the word 'passionate' for them haha (not that he wasn't obsessive himself but the songs are passionate?) I just...if I'm being honest, I relate way more to the Phantom than Christine (Christine is more of my ideal self), and his songs as well...


It's like your last few posts have been asking someone to question your Fe


----------



## Pressed Flowers

FearAndTrembling said:


> Something about Si and Ni I noticed, particularly ENxJ, is that they are more sedated than ESxJ. The Ni doesn't have the intensity of Si there. ESJ have more energy than ENJ. ESJ are more present in the environment. They are more "there".
> 
> Like the difference between and ENTJ and ESTJ trying to control things is quite different to me. The ESTJ, again, is more prominent. He is more present. More active. More alive. ENTJ is less blatant. Like Carl Sagan and Dick Cheney. Those guys are laid back. Compare them to that video game wizard. They are all con men, but ENTJ is a more abstract con. Everybody knows that gamer is a con man, as soon as he opens his mouth. It takes a while to figure out guys like Saga, Cheney and Obama are con men. The Ni makes them more disarming. They are like vampires.
> 
> Se in the 3rd slot, with ENFJ and ENTJ, causes a slow down. One would think that inferior Se would be even slower, but that is where the system reverses itself. For ENFJ and ENTJ, Se is like a cruising gear. Overdrive. For INxJ, it is like first gear that we never use. We don't even know how to drive the thing. It is like our tail. It is cut off, or too short. It doesn't work like normal tails. So we wag it unnaturally and spastically to compensate. So I mean what I said that Obama is too "normal" to be an INFJ. He knows how to use his tail.
> 
> I also have this idea that Ni doms, and perhaps Ne doms too, walk fast. Talk fast. They move at a different pace than other people. Because of inferior sensing.


My first thought is "I'm not sedated". I have been frequently told throughout my life that I am too energetic, too bouncy, too "hyper". 

But perhaps sedation as you use it to describe EN_J could fit me? I feel sort of detached from the world in a way. I was working with an ESFJ girl (I thought she could be ESFP but... No, I think she was definitely using Fe) and she was just so much more in the ball than me. She easily got into the groove of the work we were supposed to be doing. I can't really describe it, but what she did was amazing and I was pretty envious of how she made herself so useful so easily. I wasn't doing that - I was in the background, awkwardly trying to help out but not really doing much to actually help. When we were crowded with customers and got to take orders I was much more in the zone, but I still struggled to fill the orders as smoothly as the others girls were able to. I much preferred my high school concession stand, where I could take orders and chat with customers and just yell for the kids in the back to make the meal for me. 

In general I have a hard time being on the same level as others physically. I mean, I can do physical things - my mom is a Physical Education teacher, and I was a very successful high school swimmer - but just in general I am awkward. I don't know where to stand, I don't know how to stand, I am very self conscious of how I look outwardly because I have a difficult time knowing how I am supposed to look, and figuring out where to stand and such. Should I kneel? Should I sit? Should I lean on my hands? These questions have always bothered me (of course it's partially anxiety, but) 

When I was little, I wasn't as aware of my disconnect. My pictures throughout elementary school and into middle school show a girl who is somewhat oblivious to how she looks physically, who is perhaps lost in her head but regardless unaware of how she's supposed to interact with the world. Now I have reigned it in a lot better, or so I like to think. I am working on my style. I plan to work on hair styles this summer. I am constantly brushing my hair so it doesn't get too messy, and I'm getting better at having the appearance of being engaged in the world and smiling as I need to in my pictures... and when with people in general. 

But it's still there. If you ask me to do a physical task - like selling something at a stand - I flounder a little. I try to be useful with physical things, and of course I always try my best to be helpful, but I always end up just slowing things down and messing something up. I still keep doing it, but I curse myself for not being as apt as the others. 

I also walk very fast, so it's funny you bring that up. My mom commented a lot when I was little and at award ceremonies about how I needed to walk slower, more graciously. Once she told me that when I was 11 I realized I was embarrassing myself and walked slower at award ceremonies, but before then I just sped up without regard to how I should have been walking. Even when I was 13 though my mom would complain about how fast I walked, and to this day I'm a little speedboat when I get alone. I have places to be. No time to be walking around, looking at the scenery. Life's being lived, and time spent walking should be kept at a minimal to maximize time for other things. 

(This is also one reason why I decided on EIE over IEI. The EJ temperament said they walked quite fast because they were judgment dominants and had a plan in mind that they needed to get implemented while the IP description said they were Percieving dominants and took their time more, not as in a rush. I'm always in a rush, ha.) 

That's another thing I get in trouble with at home. I rush through things. My mom will spend two hours in the kitchen, doing her system, making sure everything is right and pearly and beautiful. I will get the job done - I will do everything I am told and I think I do a decent job - but I'm much quicker about it. The kitchen needs to be cleaned, but it shouldn't be worshipped. There are other things that need to be done, and cleaning is probably the least important thing of those things, especially considering that'll one is coming over and our house is already sparkless. My mom cant stand it, she says take your time, do things right, you always rush through things... But to me it's not that. It's using my time wisely. I can clean the kitchen as I should, but I'm not going to waste extra hours on it when I do not have to. 

Same thing with brushing my teeth, as odd as it is. When I had braces, ideally they would have you work on your teeth for ten to fifteen minutes every morning, night, and, ideally, in the adternoon as well. I simply did not have time for that. Brush my teeth for ten minutes, when I know how to get it done in two and I can use that time I would have spent brushing on... you know, something that's actually going to matter long term how much time I spend on it, like studying? I could never be a dentist or a dental hygienist, because while I know we need to care for our teeth I couldn't devote my life to it. I couldn't even devote ten minutes to it. 

Your comment "They don't even know how to drive the thing" made me think of my own troubles driving. While now I can't really drive because my feet don't really work, I've had a hard time driving because it's hard for me to... get connected to it, use it naturally. My (ESTP) dad is able to use the car as an extension of his own body. I love that. I might have that connection with a bicycle, and I'm getting it with the wheelchairs, but it's harder to do with a car. I can't wait to have it though, that connection where I don't even have to think about turning, I just do it. I know that it's possible for me because I've learned to do that with bicycles, but it's just so intimidating nonetheless. 

Ahh. There we go. Hopefully that's some relevant information. I'm not sure if I relate to your description of Ni aux, but the Ni dominant description of being disconnected and not knowing how to move is very relevant to me. That's actually one of the things I find most awkward about me. If only I could move my body the right way, appear the right way! I'm working on getting those skills down, but it's so hard for me. (Honestly I'm so disconnected physically that I was convinced for a few months that I was autistic [when I was much younger], but the one specialist we saw didn't even consider it because I was actually so socially apt and ridiculously empathetic. It's just my body. I have a hard time using my body and being connected to the world as I should be.)


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> Do it)
> I . . . yeah, maybe that's why I'm thinking maybe Fi for me? I mean, I would probably use the word 'passionate' for them haha (not that he wasn't obsessive himself but the songs are passionate?) I just...if I'm being honest, I relate way more to the Phantom than Christine (Christine is more of my ideal self), and his songs as well...


I think that's the SX and line(s) to 4,if you are a 1w2 

I really,really think I'm not Fi yet the songs I love can be very,very passionate.And obsessive.And I love passion and obsession haha
I also related to Phantom a bit.But don't ask much,haven't watched the movie for soooo long.
Btw my grandma(ISFJ) and mother(xNFP) ADORE it,they both have read and watched everything there is to read and watch.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> It's like your last few posts have been asking someone to question your Fe


Hm, where did you get that idea?)
No, I don't know, alittlebear really makes me doubt it) Her Fe seems like pure, perfect textbook Fe and...I think mine is Fe? But it does not look like hers at all) Silly I know, but...ugh)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

While we're on Phantom of the Opera, I realized listening to the songs that I might not like it because it is so... intimate. It focuses on a few characters, and me, I'm okay with that but I prefer large casts. How do they all get along? What's their story? Basically Les Mis. (Rent was a bit too much for me, their ideas were so different from my ideas and the way they went... I liked the themes, but their songs aren't too relatable at all. Also the weird modern references were somewhat too weird for me.) 

I like, love One Day More from Les Mis. It's so glorious. You know the characters already, and to see them come together... Glorious. I love to lip sync it. (I love to lip sync in general honestly. It's my true physical talent. I hate the Lip Sync Battle show, because I know I would be so much better than every single one of them if I got the chance, but it won't get the chance because I'm not famous.  although @FearAndTrembling it's funny because I also struggle with moving my legs when I lip sync, or dance, or anything... I think that's partially the dystonia, I'm naturally a tight-muscled person and don't know the difference, don't know how to be loose because it's kinda impossible for me, but I think I also just need to figure out what to do about my legs. I've got the facial things down, hand movements down, but it's hard for me to flow as I should and handle the test of my body correctly.) 

But... Yes. Body things aside, I think that my love of big casts and interactions between characters shows both my Soc instinct and Fe. 

I will say that I do like, like, The Last Five Years... And it does center on two characters, completely...but I like that more than Phantom because those characters seem so eternal. They're struggling through heartbreak and love and bliss and despair in relationships, which I see as more of a human struggle. I like eternal characters like that, who can represent a human struggle. (Of course Phantom does that as well, but I haven't connected it to the human struggle as directly yet. It's so trapped inside the opera. In my eyes now, at least. That's All I Ask Of You is different, it seems like an eternal expression of true love (any love, I would say, although obviously it's presentation is very romance-geared).


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Hm, where did you get that idea?)
> No, I don't know, alittlebear *really makes me doubt it*) Her Fe seems like pure, perfect textbook Fe and...I think mine is Fe? But it does not look like hers at all) Silly I know, but...ugh)


Yeah, just seems like you keep questioning your Fe 

I think there's a spectrum of Fe and Fi, and alittlebear is on the "whoa that's so Fe" part of the spectrum. (Unless others disagree?)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

It's still so funny to me that you guys see me as textbook Fe. I guess I do fit the classic descriptions of Fe pretty completely, but it's... odd, because I don't do the typically bad Fe things. I do guilt trip people, yes, I do charm people into getting what I want (this only didn't work for me once in high school, and honestly it upset me way more than it should have...), and I do just use my kindness and appeasing nature to wiggle through life... But I don't bully people for being different? I couldn't imagine bullying anyone, ever. I'm also always outside of the classic "cliques," people rarely want me in their group and I'm always on the fringes (which makes me sad, but it's true). 

Of course I from my own cliques with my armies of misfit children (I feel bad saying that -- honestly they aren't all misfits, but I have an easier time making friends with the kids who aren't as connected socially, and sometimes they can grow attached to and somewhat dependent on my presence, especially if they're younger), and when I'm not around a bunch of people who already have their cliques I usually find a way into one unspoken friendship circle or another, but... 

I don't do some classic Fe things like the cliques and the bullying and the fitting in. I'm the opposite of all of that. But I guess it's the cognitive process that counts, right?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I will say that I do like, like, The Last Five Years... And it does center on two characters, completely...but I like that more than Phantom because those characters seem so eternal. They're struggling through heartbreak and love and bliss and despair in relationships, which I see as more of a human struggle. I like eternal characters like that, who can represent a human struggle. (Of course Phantom does that as well, but I haven't connected it to the human struggle as directly yet. It's so trapped inside the opera. In my eyes now, at least. That's All I Ask Of You is different, it seems like an eternal expression of true love (any love, I would say, although obviously it's presentation is very romance-geared).


It's interesting; for me the intimacy of Phantom is part of what makes it so eternal, for me. I mean, I love Les Mis of course but the fact that it's so broad sets it firmly in the year 1832 for me, whereas Phantom feels...enshrined in the Opera House, which couldn't happen with a larger cast, with everyone running here and there) Like, for me, the moment when Christine forgives the Phantom, redeems him, effectively saves him...is this parable of human forgiveness and it shows the love of Christ but in a personal way, it's this _moment_ that I don't find so much in Les Mis (which, again, I adore, and I'm totally with you on the One Day More scene...but I can't adore it half as much as I adore Phantom)
I think maybe @Living dead on to something though, it may just be the sx vs the soc) As well as whatever Enneagram things might come into play)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I think people love PotO because it's filled with unfulfilled desire, yearning, sadness, and loss. Everyone is on a journey; Christine cannot escape her past ("why won't the past just die?!") but her future is bound up in fear of what might happen as a consequence of disobedience to her "Opera Ghost / Angel of Music" (inferior Ne). Meanwhile, Erik desperately loathes his own face and fearsome features, so he thinks he can seduce someone into loving him by throwing up a veil, a guise, a magical barrier, by plying her with the gift of music, with soul-searching song, by teaching her, training her, thriving off the knowledge that because of him, she is loved, adored, his public face ("I am the mask you wear / You are the mask I wear"). Through others adoring her, he too is loved. (Hmm, maybe he is Fe after all.) It's all about his inability to accept himself; how his self-loathing and utter fixation on his hideous appearance sabotages him from finding true love, where had he been his true self -- mask or not -- he could have won over her heart easily. But no, his heart is as twisted as his face, because he chooses to embrace evil, to want to control rather than to invite. It's just all... deliciously deep and tragic and full of symbolism.


I love how you guys love it and find it beautiful  I hope I can appreciate it like that someday, because I do want to be able to appreciate and enjoy it like that... but I'm not there yet? Again I do think it has something to do with my lack of SX and abundance of SO in Enneagram instincts. I'm not one for so much intensity and delving into one character (most the time), I'm more of societal things and larger casts and how they interact socially with the world. 

But I must say that when I listened to the soundtrack this morning, I found it beautiful.  Theresa lot in it I haven't appreciated yet. I'm going to have to listen to it more frequently and figure it out better.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I don't do some classic Fe things like the cliques and the bullying and the fitting in. I'm the opposite of all of that. But I guess it's the cognitive process that counts, right?


You are the nice Regina George of the misfits.Still seems pretty Fe


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin Les Mis, firmly set in the time period? Ah, no! That's not how I see it (which works, since you see deeper into Phantom and I see more eternal with Les Mis). For me... Everything in Les Mis is eternal, and it makes so much sense with faith... and even without? I don't know, I can't even put into words how Les Mis is so... eternal, there, important, metaphorical, astounding. I could list off songs and how they're deeper - Castle on the Cloud is so relevant to child abuse, Who Am I can be about... so much, from identity to accepting responsibility and just indecisiveness, do I even have to explain how eternal and constantly relevant Do You Hear The People Sing Is, On My Own is a ridiculously Fi-teeming song about feelings but it's so eternal in terms of heartbreak and crushes as well as deeper loss, At The End Of The Day seems to be so much about societal oppression and how a society can be thrown down by hard work and being out down, but then how it in turn strikes at a single part of it, not because it is cruel but just because it has to diffuse the pain it feels and it relieves that through throwing it on a poor victim... I could obviously go on - but it's really more encompassing than that. To me Les Mis about love. It's about love, what we do for love, what happens in the absence of love, and the many different forms of love. It also has some _incredible_ biblical symbolism, but thinking about some of our most beloved characters as Christ figures can be a bit controversial so I'll hold off on adding my interpretations there. 

But... Yeah. For me Les Mis is so relevant I think anywhere, in any society, in any human, in humanity in general... I can see where one wouldn't see that, but to me it's pretty plain.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

alittlebear said:


> My first thought is "I'm not sedated". I have been frequently told throughout my life that I am too energetic, too bouncy, too "hyper".
> 
> But perhaps sedation as you use it to describe EN_J could fit me? I feel sort of detached from the world in a way. I was working with an ESFJ girl (I thought she could be ESFP but... No, I think she was definitely using Fe) and she was just so much more in the ball than me. She easily got into the groove of the work we were supposed to be doing. I can't really describe it, but what she did was amazing and I was pretty envious of how she made herself so useful so easily. I wasn't doing that - I was in the background, awkwardly trying to help out but not really doing much to actually help. When we were crowded with customers and got to take orders I was much more in the zone, but I still struggled to fill the orders as smoothly as the others girls were able to. I much preferred my high school concession stand, where I could take orders and chat with customers and just yell for the kids in the back to make the meal for me.
> 
> In general I have a hard time being on the same level as others physically. I mean, I can do physical things - my mom is a Physical Education teacher, and I was a very successful high school swimmer - but just in general I am awkward. I don't know where to stand, I don't know how to stand, I am very self conscious of how I look outwardly because I have a difficult time knowing how I am supposed to look, and figuring out where to stand and such. Should I kneel? Should I sit? Should I lean on my hands? These questions have always bothered me (of course it's partially anxiety, but)
> 
> When I was little, I wasn't as aware of my disconnect. My pictures throughout elementary school and into middle school show a girl who is somewhat oblivious to how she looks physically, who is perhaps lost in her head but regardless unaware of how she's supposed to interact with the world. Now I have reigned it in a lot better, or so I like to think. I am working on my style. I plan to work on hair styles this summer. I am constantly brushing my hair so it doesn't get too messy, and I'm getting better at having the appearance of being engaged in the world and smiling as I need to in my pictures... and when with people in general.
> 
> But it's still there. If you ask me to do a physical task - like selling something at a stand - I flounder a little. I try to be useful with physical things, and of course I always try my best to be helpful, but I always end up just slowing things down and messing something up. I still keep doing it, but I curse myself for not being as apt as the others.
> 
> I also walk very fast, so it's funny you bring that up. My mom commented a lot when I was little and at award ceremonies about how I needed to walk slower, more graciously. Once she told me that when I was 11 I realized I was embarrassing myself and walked slower at award ceremonies, but before then I just sped up without regard to how I should have been walking. Even when I was 13 though my mom would complain about how fast I walked, and to this day I'm a little speedboat when I get alone. I have places to be. No time to be walking around, looking at the scenery. Life's being lived, and time spent walking should be kept at a minimal to maximize time for other things.
> 
> (This is also one reason why I decided on EIE over IEI. The EJ temperament said they walked quite fast because they were judgment dominants and had a plan in mind that they needed to get implemented while the IP description said they were Percieving dominants and took their time more, not as in a rush. I'm always in a rush, ha.)
> 
> That's another thing I get in trouble with at home. I rush through things. My mom will spend two hours in the kitchen, doing her system, making sure everything is right and pearly and beautiful. I will get the job done - I will do everything I am told and I think I do a decent job - but I'm much quicker about it. The kitchen needs to be cleaned, but it shouldn't be worshipped. There are other things that need to be done, and cleaning is probably the least important thing of those things, especially considering that'll one is coming over and our house is already sparkless. My mom cant stand it, she says take your time, do things right, you always rush through things... But to me it's not that. It's using my time wisely. I can clean the kitchen as I should, but I'm not going to waste extra hours on it when I do not have to.
> 
> Same thing with brushing my teeth, as odd as it is. When I had braces, ideally they would have you work on your teeth for ten to fifteen minutes every morning, night, and, ideally, in the adternoon as well. I simply did not have time for that. Brush my teeth for ten minutes, when I know how to get it done in two and I can use that time I would have spent brushing on... you know, something that's actually going to matter long term how much time I spend on it, like studying? I could never be a dentist or a dental hygienist, because while I know we need to care for our teeth I couldn't devote my life to it. I couldn't even devote ten minutes to it.
> 
> Your comment "They don't even know how to drive the thing" made me think of my own troubles driving. While now I can't really drive because my feet don't really work, I've had a hard time driving because it's hard for me to... get connected to it, use it naturally. My (ESTP) dad is able to use the car as an extension of his own body. I love that. I might have that connection with a bicycle, and I'm getting it with the wheelchairs, but it's harder to do with a car. I can't wait to have it though, that connection where I don't even have to think about turning, I just do it. I know that it's possible for me because I've learned to do that with bicycles, but it's just so intimidating nonetheless.
> 
> Ahh. There we go. Hopefully that's some relevant information. I'm not sure if I relate to your description of Ni aux, but the Ni dominant description of being disconnected and not knowing how to move is very relevant to me. That's actually one of the things I find most awkward about me. If only I could move my body the right way, appear the right way! I'm working on getting those skills down, but it's so hard for me. (Honestly I'm so disconnected physically that I was convinced for a few months that I was autistic [when I was much younger], but the one specialist we saw didn't even consider it because I was actually so socially apt and ridiculously empathetic. It's just my body. I have a hard time using my body and being connected to the world as I should be.)


That is why I don't use any system really. I think all of them have value, but mine is a collage with my own twist. 

I despise trivialities. 

It is easier for weirdness to go unnoticed in youth. When you you older, differences stick out more. 

I said to an ENFP on here that nobody walks faster than me. She says she walks faster. lol. My parents always said I was in a "hurry to do nothing". This ENFP made the great point that they never thought that I wasn't moving fast to get somewhere, but to get away from somewhere. Which I think explains it. I move fast to get away from things. Because I am not enjoying, or even comfortable doing what I am doing. Even walking. But it is usually to get away from people. 

I know I have an important extroverted function that is extremely underdeveloped. lol. Te and Se. What is Se? It is reality. It is what is. I have inferior Se. So I have like two toes on reality. I am always on the edge, like I am gonna fall. I don't have solid ground. That is why Ni doms are jumpy. So, I lack Se, or concreteness or attachment to the world. And then I lack Te, which is how you construct or navigate yourself through this world. Or how men are usually supposed to anyway. So I naturally see the world as something distinct from me, and I don't have the tools to affect. 

I think Ni sees the big picture. That is why it is impractical. 

Jung defined abstraction as "the less you notice the difference in things". Like that "global alchemist" nut. She strips away all differences, to find any similarities that match. She disregards the entire haystack for a needle. Ni hates hay. It loves needles. Hay is boring.

Ni is an irrational function. Fe is rational. Ni is abstract and disregards the difference in things. Reason divides. Reason is like quality control, it sorts ideas in one bin or another. One of the short statements that I think best describes Ni is from a Tool song, "I know the pieces fit, because I watched them fall away."

What rationality is to Jung. Accepting a ratio. Putting a slash between two things. good/bad true/false. We create contradiction through reason. Imagine existence is a circle. It is whole. It is unity. It is totality. All encompassing. Man draws a line through it, and says this part is X and this part is Y. X and Y cannot be the same thing. They are opposites. Ni, and the irrational, reconcile opposites into a "higher third". Or into the original whole/one.

Plato:

*It is impossible to conceive of many without one.

**Just as things in a picture, when viewed from a distance, appear to be all in one and the same condition and alike.

*


*But if with your mind's eye you regard the absolute great and these many great things in the same way, will not another great appear beyond, by which all these must appear to be great?*


Oh, and I have a terrible sense of direction. In cars. In buildings. INFJ have this problem in general. There have been many topics on it. That Te and Se. I told you.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I love how you guys love it and find it beautiful  I hope I can appreciate it like that someday, because I do want to be able to appreciate and enjoy it like that... but I'm not there yet? Again I do think it has something to do with my lack of SX and abundance of SO in Enneagram instincts. I'm not one for so much intensity and delving into one character (most the time), I'm more of societal things and larger casts and how they interact socially with the world.
> 
> But I must say that when I listened to the soundtrack this morning, I found it beautiful.  Theresa lot in it I haven't appreciated yet. I'm going to have to listen to it more frequently and figure it out better.


Enjoy)
Honestly though, if something doesn't speak to you it doesn't speak to you) Sometimes you have to be in the right period of life or just the right mood to appreciate something; there have definitely been things I've been very indifferent to one year and absolutely in love with the next)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Enjoy)
> Honestly though, if something doesn't speak to you it doesn't speak to you) Sometimes you have to be in the right period of life or just the right mood to appreciate something; there have definitely been things I've been very indifferent to one year and absolutely in love with the next)


Ah, if only I could just accept that. I'm constantly on a quest to appreciate everything. You know the song Uptown Funk? I could not stand it. I don't know why, it's just so... balloon-y, weird, up in the air. Happy. But I know it's going to be played everywhere, and I can't have a song that I dislike playing everywhere because that will bring me down, and I'll probably make a comment to someone about how annoying it is and they will like it and... No, it's better to just make peace with it now. Especially considering someday it will be a classic on the Oldies station, my kids will see it representing my generation, and how will I explain that "oh sorry kids, I was the one killjoy who couldn't stand this song." 

A but too in the future and preemptive, but... That's my irrational logic behind wanting to like it. (And I do like it now. It's quirky. I dance to it and smile and laugh. It's fun.) 

But I've forced myself to like all sorts of things... largely because I don't quite know what I enjoy. And also it doesn't make for good conversation material if you've got a girl who LOVES Frozen and the best thing you can say about it is "I hate it." No! You've got to figure out why everyone likes it, how you can like it, how to make yourself like it so you can appreciate what this generation wants better and so you can connect better with people who do like it. 

I'm doing that with GOT now, but I don't understand why so many girls look up to Dany when it's pretty clear to me that she's a selfish tyrant, and I don't like selfish tyrants... As I reread the series, I'm trying to look for that spark that makes so many love her. (I mean I know they love her because she's a Strong Independent Woman, a pop feminist icon, but... Can they really forget the fact that she makes so many selfish, thoughtless decisions and just kills people she disagrees with? What does that say about the girls? But I can't judge the girls who like her...? It's a conundrum of sorts.) 

That's actually how I got into Harry Potter. I was tired of not liking HP while everyone and their mother did... So I forced myself to read it. Forced myself to like it. And it worked. I love Harry Potter to this day.  

But I _do_ agree sometimes you read the right book at the right time. Warriors is about the outcast being more than an outcast, and was very relevant to me when I read it. It's funny but war stories, war literature, it does the same thing to me... War stories deal with trauma so... honestly, honestly, and they've helped me get through some stuff. _The Scarlet Letter_ helped me through high school, because I too could relate to being a pariah, but coming back from it and showing strength in my isolation and being some sort of light because of it. (Not that I _was_, but... I felt like it at the time.) _Les Miserables_ did the same thing for me, especially with how Fantine was treated in spite of her obvious innocence. Society isn't fair. That's just the truth. Books helped me come to terms with this. 

That said, I still force myself to like stuff I don't. I have a little counterculture shard in me, but not enough to allow me to out myself at odds with people who like what I *naturally* dislike.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Oswin</a></i></span> Les Mis, firmly set in the time period? Ah, no! That's not how I see it (which works, since you see deeper into Phantom and I see more eternal with Les Mis). For me... Everything in Les Mis is eternal, and it makes so much sense with faith... and even without? I don't know, I can't even put into words how Les Mis is so... eternal, there, important, metaphorical, astounding. I could list off songs and how they're deeper - Castle on the Cloud is so relevant to child abuse, Who Am I can be about... so much, from identity to accepting responsibility and just indecisiveness, do I even have to explain how eternal and constantly relevant Do You Hear The People Sing Is, On My Own is a ridiculously Fi-teeming song about feelings but it's so eternal in terms of heartbreak and crushes as well as deeper loss, At The End Of The Day seems to be so much about societal oppression and how a society can be thrown down by hard work and being out down, but then how it in turn strikes at a single part of it, not because it is cruel but just because it has to diffuse the pain it feels and it relieves that through throwing it on a poor victim... I could obviously go on - but it's really more encompassing than that. To me Les Mis about love. It's about love, what we do for love, what happens in the absence of love, and the many different forms of love. It also has some _incredible_ biblical symbolism, but thinking about some of our most beloved characters as Christ figures can be a bit controversial so I'll hold off on adding my interpretations there.
> 
> But... Yeah. For me Les Mis is so relevant I think anywhere, in any society, in any human, in humanity in general... I can see where one wouldn't see that, but to me it's pretty plain.


No, I agree (somewhat). I think my favorite song from Les Mis might be "Bring Him Home" (and Colm Wilkinson is everything 



 ) not to mention 'Turning'...and of course, they aren't just 'about' 1832 Paris or anything, but to me they are more _examples_ of principles, ideas, love, etc. whereas Phantom is more a _model_ of such things.

Not that I think Phantom is 'better' than Les Mis, just that Phantom speaks to me more profoundly) It's like...Les Mis is taking place in the real world, but Phantom is taking place in more of an idealized, distilled version of reality...in the prison of the mind) Although...it could just be N vs S because while in Les Mis it's about the ideas and social movements and such, I don't know how the air smelled, which like...shouldn't matter but with Phantom I can smell dust and stage (it's a smell) and resin and and stone and . . . all that)) So...hm) I like Les Mis because I can apply it to other things, whereas I like Phantom because I can apply other things to it?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, if only I could just accept that. I'm constantly on a quest to appreciate everything. You know the song Uptown Funk? I could not stand it. I don't know why, it's just so... balloon-y, weird, up in the air. Happy. But I know it's going to be played everywhere, and I can't have a song that I dislike playing everywhere because that will bring me down, and I'll probably make a comment to someone about how annoying it is and they will like it and... No, it's better to just make peace with it now. Especially considering someday it will be a classic on the Oldies station, my kids will see it representing my generation, and how will I explain that "oh sorry kids, I was the one killjoy who couldn't stand this song."
> 
> A but too in the future and preemptive, but... That's my irrational logic behind wanting to like it. (And I do like it now. It's quirky. I dance to it and smile and laugh. It's fun.)
> 
> But I've forced myself to like all sorts of things... largely because I don't quite know what I enjoy. And also it doesn't make for good conversation material if you've got a girl who LOVES Frozen and the best thing you can say about it is "I hate it." No! You've got to figure out why everyone likes it, how you can like it, how to make yourself like it so you can appreciate what this generation wants better and so you can connect better with people who do like it.
> 
> I'm doing that with GOT now, but I don't understand why so many girls look up to Dany when it's pretty clear to me that she's a selfish tyrant, and I don't like selfish tyrants... As I reread the series, I'm trying to look for that spark that makes so many love her. (I mean I know they love her because she's a Strong Independent Woman, a pop feminist icon, but... Can they really forget the fact that she makes so many selfish, thoughtless decisions and just kills people she disagrees with? What does that say about the girls? But I can't judge the girls who like her...? It's a conundrum of sorts.)
> 
> That's actually how I got into Harry Potter. I was tired of not liking HP while everyone and their mother did... So I forced myself to read it. Forced myself to like it. And it worked. I love Harry Potter to this day.
> 
> But I _do_ agree sometimes you read the right book at the right time. Warriors is about the outcast being more than an outcast, and was very relevant to me when I read it. It's funny but war stories, war literature, it does the same thing to me... War stories deal with trauma so... honestly, honestly, and they've helped me get through some stuff. _The Scarlet Letter_ helped me through high school, because I too could relate to being a pariah, but coming back from it and showing strength in my isolation and being some sort of light because of it. (Not that I _was_, but... I felt like it at the time.) _Les Miserables_ did the same thing for me, especially with how Fantine was treated in spite of her obvious innocence. Society isn't fair. That's just the truth. Books helped me come to terms with this.
> 
> That said, I still force myself to like stuff I don't. I have a little counterculture shard in me, but not enough to allow me to out myself at odds with people who like what I *naturally* dislike.


Had to look up that song) I hate it)
Yeah, if you ever are doubting you use Fe and Ni I would come look at this post)
I have this a little bit but it's more like, "Everything has some worth and it's bothering me that I'm missing it in this". I want to be able to appreciate it for its own sake but I can't. I kinda have it with Friends, for instance.


----------



## 68097

I like Les Mis, but it can't touch Phantom with me. Not even close. ALW put me under some kind of spell, and it will never lift. I could come up with a dozen rational reasons of why I love it, covering a bunch of different perspectives and potential outcomes, but the fact is -- I simply love it. I love the music. I love the passion. I love the repressed sexuality, and angst, and bitterness, and that Erik is redeemed through an act of love. It's not just my favorite musical, it's one of my favorite stories. Ever. 

Since realizing Christine is an ISFJ, I also find I can understand her better, but that's beside the point. It's just an epic mythological mix of sentiment and eternal themes that resonates with my soul. 

Funny story: the teaser trailer for the film came out the same weekend I was in NYC on my one and only trip, to see Phantom of the Opera for the first time on stage. So, that was awesome. I got to meet Hugh Panaro at the stage door the night before, then get up the next morning and see the teaser for the film. The film ... ugh, I was so devastated when I heard the soundtrack, I cried. All those rough, untrained, off-key voices butchering my musical ... but it was pretty to look at, and "Point of No Return" was amazing on screen, so we reached a kind of love-hate relationship. Fortunately, the 25th Anniversary edition came out and now I have the perfect version. I still like the movie, but ... professional singers own it every time.

I so wish they'd done Les Mis' anniversary recording like PoTo, and done the full stage production. I might have enjoyed it much more, instead of them just standing at microphones singing. Though, the movie isn't half bad.
@Oswin: maybe if you can't resonate with Fe-dom, you're an aux-Fe instead?

My Fe is kind of ... invisible unless I'm paying attention to it. I circle through Ti much more often -- my instinct is to emotionally react but then logic kicks in and holds the emotion back.


----------



## Immolate

So, kind of off topic, but this song overflows with Fi, yes? Several of her songs, really.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin It would make more sense for you and @angelcat to enjoy Phantom more, in that case? I think that angelcat tried to make a connection on another topic that Ni wants to be grounded in reality to some extent, while Si/Ne doesn't have a problem lifting out of this reality into a new one. Of course I'm sure Phantom helps one better understand reality, but... It's not as obvious to me. With Les Mis, I can easily see how one would use it to better understand the feelings behind a revolution, better understand the pain of society at large, better understand the guilt of a hurt soul. With Phantom... I know it's there, but it seems too specific (even though you think the opposite, yes?) The song The Phantom of the Opera which I listened to today... "In dreams I came"... I don't know, I don't think there are too many relationships that I can think of with that intensity. 

But I do agree with you that Turning is an awesome song. I'm not as much a fan of Bring Him Home - too much religious symbolism for me there, almost, and... I don't know, I just have an aversion to that song? (Hypocritical of me to disagree when I just talked about how I liked to like everything, haha) Turning, though... So many societal things. So much pain. Such truth about how we interact with the world. Ugh. It breaks my heart. 

And @FearAndTrembling, for me walking is perhaps a bit different? When I walk, I like to think I seem to walk with purpose (until someone sees me get turned around because I actually have no idea where I'm going, but I try to do it smoothly.) I always have so where to be, even when I don't have somewhere to be and it's just the weekend. After my finals, I was sort of in a daze. Everything is done? I really don't have anything relevant to do until two hours when I'm being picked up? Usually I always have something to do, and I'm always on my way to do it at a very fast pace. 

I definitely relate to feeling disconnected from the world. It's like the world is there, but I'm here. I'm the one piece that doesn't fit. I admire like every single person in the world just because they fit... They don't seem so ethereal in a bad way, they just flow and know how to make it in society and in our little earthly universe. I struggle with that. I'm getting better with it, but still... I struggle. 

That's part of why I love having a role in society, even if that role is just Happy Person or Helper or even servile positions like the person who gets your food for you. It gives me a place. Something to do. Some way to affect the world. That's hard for me to get naturally, so I do tend to gobble it up when I really get that chance. 

As for seeing the world too big... I think I relate to that too. I was driving with my dad down literally Main Street of our town, like one member of my family does every night twice to get my grandfather, and I was thinking... I'll never feel like this is here, like this is relevant. Small towns are so small. Large cities are too small. I can never think of and appreciate this corner of the world I live in, I'm always thinking of how this part of the world connects to the world at large, how is my high school like other high schools, what is different about us, how do we represent the typical experience... It's hard to explain, but I just thought of this. To me our piece of the world and life is so insignificant, it's hard for me to appreciate it as I should. Of course I do - I feel pride for my town and my county and my school and even my little neighborhoods - but I meer feel apart of it. I don't get involved in politics or even school politics because it's all so temporary. Small. Irrelevant in the long run. (Or rather, I do get involved in politics and school functions and even neighborhood events... But it takes a little pushing from other people, as well as just jumping into it. I have to stop thinking of how nothing I do will matter in the long run and just do it... and step back and be amazed by how much what I do can matter once I just stop being aware of my tiny existence.) 

Oh and yes, I relate to terrible direction  But I also enjoy figuring places out. It's fun when you're thrown in a new environment that you don't know the nuances of, you just have to deal with your ignorance, it can be an adventure, but there's also some great satisfaction in figuring out a place, seeing how those once floating sidewalks connect to each other and seeing a picture of the whole (the whole school, park, town, etc). (And it's nice to be able to give directions to someone when they're lost  )


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin It would make more sense for you and @angelcat to enjoy Phantom more, in that case? I think that angelcat tried to make a connection on another topic that Ni wants to be grounded in reality to some extent, while Si/Ne doesn't have a problem lifting out of this reality into a new one. Of course I'm sure Phantom helps one better understand reality, but... It's not as obvious to me. With Les Mis, I can easily see how one would use it to better understand the feelings behind a revolution, better understand the pain of society at large, better understand the guilt of a hurt soul. With Phantom... I know it's there, but it seems too specific (even though you think the opposite, yes?) The song The Phantom of the Opera which I listened to today... "In dreams I came"... I don't know, I don't think there are too many relationships that I can think of with that intensity.


HAH! You just gave me a lightbulb moment. This is SPECIFICALLY an example of what I meant.

Phantom -- removes us from reality into a more idealized (if frightening) place -- a world of light and shadows, of intense desire, of fantastical things, or murder and redemption and ghost stories. It is exciting because it is heightened reality -- not reality, or at least, not a world we dwell in every day.

Les Miserables -- pulls us into the dirty streets of Paris, into an exploration of the human condition, into a devastating time in history, and swells within us immense emotion. It is reality to the extreme, pulling us back into history and forcing us to look at its trials, tribulations, and devastation upon innocent, idealistic souls.

One is drawing us into the fantastical, the other is grounding us in history. It makes sense to me that SJs would prefer Phantom, because it tickles their Ne, while Les Mis would tug on an NJ's Se. 

Ironically, the villain and probably the main character of Les Mis are STJs, while the lead in PotO is a Ni-dom. Fascination with opposites.

ETA: I've known a lot of PotO fans over the years, and many of them enjoy imagining themselves in Christine's place -- what they would do, how they would react. I think that fiction, for SFJs, is very much escapism and PotO is the ultimate escapism. Leave your boring life behind and escape into the dungeons of a Paris opera house in the Victorian era, where a crazed eccentric who writes beautiful music is lost in his passion for an opera singer!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat I think I'll probably respond more to the two posts you just made, but I've been thinking for a while -- sometime you're going to have to explain to all the folks why you see Jean Valjean as _ISTJ_ as opposed to INFJ. I'm pretty sure quite a few people see him as a prototypical INFJ  (I don't really have an opinion, he's kinda just a good guy no matter what he is. It is funny that so many people see him as Ni, though... Hes very centered. Grounded. Deep, but not in a big way, more deep in a feeling way? I would be willing to hear arguments against INFJ.) 

I'm going to have to tag you on my Fi vs Fe song thread, @shinynotshiny. 

That is a pretty Fi song though! Not caring what anyone thinks. I can't imagine. There's quite a few songs like this... They always make me uncomfortable. I'm more of a Taylor Swift - feeling type of person. "I don't know how my friends can be so mean." "You put up walls and paint them all a shade of grey." "..with that same loud opinion but, nobody's listening, washed up and ranting about the same old bitter things... But all you are is mean..." I can't just reject someone because they're stupid and don't like me. Their dislike of me is going to impact how others see me, and people can be so easily influenced to dislike a person that it doesn't matter how nice I am, if a popular girl shows disdain for me a whole lot of other people will show disdain for me too. All I can hope is that someday other people realize how mean is mean is mean is mean and stop looking up to mean people. Still waiting on that, though. Ah, society. 

It's sweet because Taylor feels that too. My dad says that Taylor is narcissistic because she expects everyone to like her and doesn't understand when they don't. I didn't say anything, but of course I'm the same way. I tremble if anyone gives me a cold eye (which the do too frequently). It's nice to have an artist who sort of feels the same way. (A lough in partially have no sympathy for Taylor. She has countless fans. Everyone is filled with praises for her. Yes, some people hate her, but only out of jealousy, because she's so high they feel they need to bring her down. It's nothing personal anymore. I think she might be realizing that, but it's still silly how she takes every criticism so personally when...well, when you're in the money making world of pop,I don't think you can be sensitive. Ahh. But all that aside.) 

(Oh, but my favorite lyric from her [other than "I can feel my heart, it's beating in my chest," which is a line I find simply hilarious) is "Don't you worry your pretty little mind, people throw rocks at things that shine." It's so incredibly true. I love that she captured it like that.) 

I only know Janelle Monae because one of my Te-dom friends loves her. The Te-dom was convinced she was ENTP... thank goodness she eventually realized that she's actually Te as heck. Her Te/Fi is incredible. I guess that would explain why she likes this artist so much  

And oh, I'm so jealous of you for never having heard Uptown Funk before, @Oswin. The weekend it hits the radio my room mate comes back from her camping trip and says, "I found a new song, _you're going to love it!_ I'll be playing this all the time now." I go out to eat dinner with my family a day later and my sister goes "oh my gosh, I love this new song!" (And I actually didn't act very Fe then, I went "oh my gosh! Why does everyone like this song!" And I forgot how impressionable my sister is, she felt that my disliking the song meant that she had to dislike the song... You have to be careful with these things.) thank goodness now I'm okay with the song to hopefully make up for my easier storm cloudiness regarding it.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I'm going to have to tag you on my Fi vs Fe song thread, @_shinynotshiny_.
> 
> That is a pretty Fi song though! Not caring what anyone thinks. I can't imagine. There's quite a few songs like this... They always make me uncomfortable. I'm more of a Taylor Swift - feeling type of person. "I don't know how my friends can be so mean." "You put up walls and paint them all a shade of grey." "..with that same loud opinion but, nobody's listening, washed up and ranting about the same old bitter things... But all you are is mean..." *I can't just reject someone because they're stupid and don't like me.* Their dislike of me is going to impact how others see me, and people can be so easily influenced to dislike a person that it doesn't matter how nice I am, if a popular girl shows disdain for me a whole lot of other people will show disdain for me too. All I can hope is that someday other people realize how mean is mean is mean is mean and stop looking up to mean people. Still waiting on that, though. Ah, society.


I love Janelle Monae.

Why do these songs make you uncomfortable? The bold statement above: that's not the point of Janelle's song, or Fi songs in general. Janelle specifically addresses social issues in her songs, like race and love. Two of her albums are based on Cindi Mayweather, an android who gains self-awareness and falls in love with a man. She has to hide and live underground to avoid being disassembled for her feelings.











_The golden door of their emotions opens wide
Here they fall into her love and never have to hide_


----------



## FearAndTrembling

alittlebear said:


> While we're on Phantom of the Opera, I realized listening to the songs that I might not like it because it is so... intimate. It focuses on a few characters, and me, I'm okay with that but I prefer large casts. How do they all get along? What's their story? Basically Les Mis. (Rent was a bit too much for me, their ideas were so different from my ideas and the way they went... I liked the themes, but their songs aren't too relatable at all. Also the weird modern references were somewhat too weird for me.)
> 
> I like, love One Day More from Les Mis. It's so glorious. You know the characters already, and to see them come together... Glorious. I love to lip sync it. (I love to lip sync in general honestly. It's my true physical talent. I hate the Lip Sync Battle show, because I know I would be so much better than every single one of them if I got the chance, but it won't get the chance because I'm not famous.  although @_FearAndTrembling_ it's funny because I also struggle with moving my legs when I lip sync, or dance, or anything... I think that's partially the dystonia, I'm naturally a tight-muscled person and don't know the difference, don't know how to be loose because it's kinda impossible for me, but I think I also just need to figure out what to do about my legs. I've got the facial things down, hand movements down, but it's hard for me to flow as I should and handle the test of my body correctly.)
> 
> But... Yes. Body things aside, I think that my love of big casts and interactions between characters shows both my Soc instinct and Fe.
> 
> I will say that I do like, like, The Last Five Years... And it does center on two characters, completely...but I like that more than Phantom because those characters seem so eternal. They're struggling through heartbreak and love and bliss and despair in relationships, which I see as more of a human struggle. I like eternal characters like that, who can represent a human struggle. (Of course Phantom does that as well, but I haven't connected it to the human struggle as directly yet. It's so trapped inside the opera. In my eyes now, at least. That's All I Ask Of You is different, it seems like an eternal expression of true love (any love, I would say, although obviously it's presentation is very romance-geared).


Ni is basically the third eye. So Ni doms use their 3rd eye first. You can see why that is a problem. Plato described the sensory world as the "twilight world of change and decay." That is inferior Se. 

Jung gave real examples of people he thought totally represented a function. Jung never heard of Carl Sagan, but if I wrote that book today, I would use Sagan as an example of an extrovert. Sagan wanted to rub any subjectivity out of the world. The epitome of concrete thinking and empiricism. 

The introvert has a natural fear of the world. That is why he is an introvert and abstracts. Abstractions are a barrier between the introvert and the natural world. The world is big and scary. Then you got a guy like Sagan, coming out and constantly blowing up the size of this beast. Making the universe bigger. Constantly beating the drum of how insignificant humans are. First of all, what the hell kind of philosophy is that? Anyway, so Sagan keeps on scaring the introvert with concretist dogma. Making the thing he most fears, the outside world, bigger and more powerful. To Sagan, all the answers come from without.

So Sagan represents the extrovert, and guys like Jesus and Buddha represent the introvert. Because they are like, no, not only are humans bigger than the world, they are actually too good for it, and bound for a better place. It is smaller than us. That is introversion. Sagan is the anti-buddha. Let us not reflect, let us just progress. Just build. Science. 

 I was listening to some philosophy lectures last night. The guy talked about Frankenstein. That is a metaphor for science. Just blind creation. Without soul. And Dr Frankenstein does it all in the name of science and progress. He leaves it for the poets to decide if it is ethical or not. Dismissively. They stand in the way of progress. The humanities. And the lecturer noted it was the poet who the monster first killed, and it was the poet who was the only one capable of reaching/stop the monster. If science would only listen. And the monster says to Dr Frankenstein, "You are my creator, but I am your master." He is talking about science. Science needs poetry. The lecturer ended with this great quote, which so sums up a man like Sagan:

"The metaphysical philosophy of this last inquirer is certainly no shadowy or unsubstantial one. He fairly lays open our moral structure with his dissecting-knives and real metal probes; and exhibits it to the inspection of mankind, by Leuwenhoek microscopes, and inflation with the anatomical blowpipe. Thought, he is inclined to hold, is still secreted by the brain; but then Poetry and Religion (and it is really worth knowing) are “a product of the smaller intestines!” We have the greatest admiration for this learned doctor: with what scientific stoicism he walks through the land of wonders, unwondering; like a wise man through some huge, gaudy, imposing Vauxhall, whose fire-works, cascades and symphonies, the vulgar may enjoy and believe in."

As Jung said, where there is a will, there is way, is the superstition of modern man. 

*Goethe's Faust aptly says: "Im Anfang wr die Tat [in the beginning was the deed]." "Deeds" were never invented, they were done; thoughts, on the other hand, are a relatively late discovery of man. First he was moved to deeds by unconscious factors; it was only a long time afterward that he began to reflect upon the causes that had moved him; and it took it him a very long time indeed to arrive at the preposterous idea that he must have moved himself . . . his mind being unable to identify any other motivating force than his own. 

"These inner motives [forces from within as well as by stimuli from without] spring from a deep source that is not made by consciousness and is not under its control. In the mythology of earlier times, these forces were called mana, or spirits, demons, and gods. They are as active today as they ever were were. If they conform to our wishes. we call them happy hunches or impulses and pat ourselves on the back for beings smart fellows. If they go against us, then we say that it is just bad luck, or that certain people are against us, or that the cause of our misfortunes must be pathological. The one thing we refuse to admit is that we are dependent upon “powers” that are beyond our control.

It is true, however, that in recent times civilized man has acquired a certain amount of will power, which he can apply where he pleases. He has learned to do his work efficiently without having recourse to chanting and drumming to hypnotize him into the state of doing. He can even dispense with a daily prayer for divine aid. He can carry out what he proposes to do, and he can apparently translate his ideas into action without a hitch, whereas the primitive seems to be hampered at each step by fears, superstitions, and other unseen obstacles to action. The motto “Where there’s a will, there’s a way” is the superstition of modern man.

Yet in order to sustain his creed, contemporary man pays the price in a remarkable lack of introspection. He is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by “powers” that are beyond his control. His gods and demons have not disappeared at all; they have mealy got new names. They keep him on the run with relentlessness, vague apprehensions, psychological complications, an insatiable need for pills, alcohol, tobacco, food—and above all, a large array of neuroses."

A man likes to believe that he is the master of his soul. But as long as he is unable to control his moods and emotions, or to be conscious of the myriad secret ways in which unconscious factors insinuate themselves into his arrangements and decisions, he is certainly not his own master .


* And Tolstoy:

“My belief assumed a form that it commonly assumes among the educated people of our time. This belief was expressed by the word "progress." At the time it seemed to me that this word had meaning. Like any living individual, I was tormented by questions of how to live better. I still had not understood that in answering that one must live according to progress, I was talking just like a person being carried along in a boat by the waves and the wind; without really answering, such a person replies to the only important question-"Where are we to steer?"-by saying, "We are being carried somewhere.”
“I understood, not with my intellect but with my whole being, that no theories of the rationality of existence or of progress could justify such an act; I realized that even if all the people in the world from the day of creation found this to be necessary according to whatever theory, I knew that it was not necessary and that it was wrong. Therefore, my judgments must be based-on what is right and necessary and not on what people say and do; I must judge not according to progress but according to my own heart.” 

Te/Fe is more manager. Ni is more visionary. Sagan is a manager who pretends to be a visionary. Tolstoy is a visionary. 

“In infinite time, in infinite matter, in infinite space, is formed a bubble organism, and that bubble lasts a while and bursts, and that bubble is Me.”


----------



## Immolate

lol oh my goodness


----------



## Immolate

I'm reminded of a passage in Life of Pi where the narrator describes an agnostic on his deathbed:



> ...the agnostic, if he stays true to his reasonable self, if he stays beholden to dry, yeastless factuality, might try to explain the warm light bathing him by saying, “Possibly a f-f-failing oxygenation of the b-b-brain,” and, to the very end, lack imagination and miss the better story.
> 
> ― Yann Martel, Life of Pi


It condemns people of "reason" because they have no imagination, no eye for the creative or romantic. The world is what it is. There is no beauty in it. There is just fact.

And yet Carl Sagan had his own brand of romanticism:



> “We are the local embodiment of a Cosmos grown to self-awareness. We have begun to contemplate our origins: starstuff pondering the stars; organized assemblages of ten billion billion billion atoms considering the evolution of atoms; tracing the long journey by which, here at least, consciousness arose. Our loyalties are to the species and the planet. We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring.”
> 
> ― Carl Sagan, Cosmos


I find this statement interesting and funny:



> “The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.”
> 
> ― Carl Sagan, Cosmos


...because it reads like something you might find in a frou-frou novel about life, but Sagan meant it in a romantic and literal way. In fact, that's the point of some of his writings:



> “Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”
> 
> ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark





> “It is sometimes said that scientists are unromantic, that their passion to figure out robs the world of beauty and mystery. But is it not stirring to understand how the world actually works — that white light is made of colors, that color is the way we perceive the wavelengths of light, that transparent air reflects light, that in so doing it discriminates among the waves, and that the sky is blue for the same reason that the sunset is red? It does no harm to the romance of the sunset to know a little bit about it.”
> 
> ― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


Science and empiricism don't have to be dry and yeastless, they don't have to rob the world of beauty and mystery. While it's true that Carl Sagan looked outward rather than inward, he didn't argue that humans were insignificant because they were small in comparison to the cosmos. He was simply expressing his awe.

Just my take on it, anyway. I've only read a few of his books. I'm no Sagan expert.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Yeah, I saw that Sagan sig. lol. I like to take a shot at him when I can. Particularly in front of one of his fans. I had an Astronomy professor who knew him from Cornell. Said he was arrogant jerk. Which I already assumed anyway. Was glad to hear it confirmed though.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> Yeah, I saw that Sagan sig. lol. I like to take a shot at him when I can. Particularly in front of one of his fans. I had an Astronomy professor who knew him from Cornell. Said he was arrogant jerk. Which I already assumed anyway. Was glad to hear it confirmed though.


Rolling my eyes here.


----------



## Immolate

I think it's safe to assume alittlebear is Fe and people take a shit on Fi as often as they can :kitteh:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I used to talk trash about Fe all the time when I first learned about the functions. What brainwashed trash those Fe losers were. How dare they not follow their hearts! Why the heck were they so darn altruistic all the time? Fake pieces of crap. *

I didn't even realize I was doing it until this friend of mine, who thought she was ENFJ at the time (was actually ESTJ) asked me "What do you have against Fe doms?" 

I guess the tables sure turned on me.

* I don't think I was that harsh to poor Fe users, but I'm told I was too critical of them


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I used to talk trash about Fe all the time when I first learned about the functions. What brainwashed trash those Fe losers were. How dare they not follow their hearts! Why the heck were they so darn altruistic all the time? Fake pieces of crap.
> 
> I didn't even realize I was doing it until this friend of mine, who thought she was ENFJ at the time (was actually ESTJ) asked me "What do you have against Fe doms?"
> 
> I guess the tables sure turned on me.


And what are your thoughts on Fi now?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> And what are your thoughts on Fi now?


I don't understand it, honestly. Which I need to work on getting over. @Arrow helped me some, but still it... doesn't quite make sense to me. I think I admire it, though. I've used the example of the girl in the radical Christian group I used to attend who is an LGBT rights activist... Even though me and my ISFJ friend hated the way the study group was homophobic, we could never challenge someone so openly like that (or rather, I was preparing to argue against the hatred of homophobia whenever they brought it up with these se of evidence I've been preparing and then dramatically walk out, but... I don't think that counts, since I never actually got the chance to do that). As I've always tried to say, Fi isn't selfish anymore than the other introverted functions are selfish, and all functions are necessary to make the world go round. We need Fe users like me, but we also certainly need all the Fi users, dominant and tertiary and auxiliary and inferior. 

And I don't think I'm just trying to be politically correct by saying I love Fi. Some of my favorite characters are ISFP.  Not to mention one of my favorite cousins is ISFP. And her wonderful, bouncy sister is Fi-aux. I can't even list all my best friends who use Fi. It's different from what I do, and I won't pretend that I understand it, but I also think I definitely love it (when it's healthy, of course  )


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I love Janelle Monae.
> 
> Why do these songs make you uncomfortable? The bold statement above: that's not the point of Janelle's song, or Fi songs in general. Janelle specifically addresses social issues in her songs, like race and love. Two of her albums are based on Cindi Mayweather, an android who gains self-awareness and falls in love with a man. She has to hide and live underground to avoid being disassembled for her feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The golden door of their emotions opens wide
> Here they fall into her love and never have to hide_


Honestly I probably never liked her music because while I am friends now with the girl who was Janelle Monae's biggest fan, for a while I wasn't. I associated Janelle Monae with her, and honestly never even listened to one of her songs until today when you posted that one. And it was a nice song, but it just... that's not my approach. Of course I misinterpreted both the song and Fi, and of course that's not what either is about, but that's just immediately what I got from the song (that it was shirking off the opinions of others). 

The beginning of the video was intense. Creative. Not sure what I was supposed to get from it, but it was really cool.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I don't understand it, honestly. Which I need to work on getting over. @_Arrow_ helped me some, but still it... doesn't quite make sense to me. I think I admire it, though. I've used the example of the girl in the radical Christian group I used to attend who is an LGBT rights activist... Even though me and my ISFJ friend hated the way the study group was homophobic, we could never challenge someone so openly like that (or rather, I was preparing to argue against the hatred of homophobia whenever they brought it up with these se of evidence I've been preparing and then dramatically walk out, but... I don't think that counts, since I never actually got the chance to do that). As I've always tried to say, Fi isn't selfish anymore than the other introverted functions are selfish, and all functions are necessary to make the world go round. We need Fe users like me, but we also certainly need all the Fi users, dominant and tertiary and auxiliary and inferior.
> 
> And I don't think I'm just trying to be politically correct by saying I love Fi. Some of my favorite characters are ISFP.  Not to mention one of my favorite cousins is ISFP. And her wonderful, bouncy sister is Fi-aux. I can't even list all my best friends who use Fi. It's different from what I do, and I won't pretend that I understand it, but I also think I definitely love it (when it's healthy, of course  )


I think you need to attract more Fi users (who are confident in their Fi)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I plan to start an Fi thread soon. I have a lot of misunderstandings about Fi. Hopefully I can get it all straightened out. 

I liked the way that Arrow (already notified, won't do it twice in a row) explained Fi. It's interesting to have some inner, guarded goodness inside of a person. I can kind of imagine what that would be like, but not to that extent. For me, it's not that I'm not worthy of a legend, you know... It's that I would never be acknowledged as a legend, so I'm not. It's... different, you know? And again I'm probably misunderstanding Fi here too, but I really do think that Fi is a wonderful function (even if it is one of those functions that I just don't personally have a grasp on).


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Honestly I probably never liked her music because while I am friends now with the girl who was Janelle Monae's biggest fan, for a while I wasn't. I associated Janelle Monae with her, and honestly never even listened to one of her songs until today when you posted that one. And it was a nice song, but it just... that's not my approach. Of course I misinterpreted both the song and Fi, and of course that's not what either is about, but that's just immediately what I got from the song *(that it was shirking off the opinions of others)*.
> 
> The beginning of the video was intense. Creative. Not sure what I was supposed to get from it, but it was really cool.












Haha, I'm teasing, but I think we have to consider the overall context of the video and Monae's personal background. She isn't just singing about herself. She's singing about a group of people and their shared experiences:



> Cindi is an android and I love speaking about the android because they are the new “other.”


Even the beginning of the video tells us what the song represents:



> Together they launched Project Queen, a musical weapons program in the 21st century. Researchers are still deciphering the nature of this program and hunting the various freedom movements that Wondaland disguised as songs, emotion pictures, and works of art.


----------



## owlet

FearAndTrembling said:


> Yeah, I saw that Sagan sig. lol. I like to take a shot at him when I can. Particularly in front of one of his fans. I had an Astronomy professor who knew him from Cornell. Said he was arrogant jerk. Which I already assumed anyway. Was glad to hear it confirmed though.


Several of the great geniuses were arrogant jerks - or at least perceived to be. I don't put much faith in the opinions of people who've met someone only a couple of times. You can't understand someone that fast and are liable to make quick, rash judgements without properly thinking them through.
I don't believe it's fair to second-guess what someone meant by their words and actions unless you really know them.

I mean, I know nothing about Sagan (I first saw his name in shiny's signature), so I have no opinion of him besides he can write very well - and that at least is something to admire.

I also don't particularly agree with the definition of Ni as a third eye function. It's not mystical in the slightest - it's literally noticing patterns and making an intuitive leap to conclude what will probably happen next, or even how something came to happen, while missing actual evidence; 'There's a massive hole in the neighbour's garden.' First, there are the potential causes (all subconscious, and can be weird things like a sink hole), then Ni filters and thinks 'The neighbours probably wanted to make a pond, or something'. What comes out and what others hear is 'The neighbours are making a pond'. (Crummy example, but I'm tired.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Hmm... That sounds deep, and of course... kind, but in a way that's different from kind. I'll have to research the song to know what it means though. I'm clueless without the Internet telling me what direction I should interpret a song. (If you ask me, 65% of Owl City songs are about death DX)


----------



## FearAndTrembling

laurie17 said:


> Several of the great geniuses were arrogant jerks - or at least perceived to be. I don't put much faith in the opinions of people who've met someone only a couple of times. You can't understand someone that fast and are liable to make quick, rash judgements without properly thinking them through.
> I don't believe it's fair to second-guess what someone meant by their words and actions unless you really know them.
> 
> I mean, I know nothing about Sagan (I first saw his name in shiny's signature), so I have no opinion of him besides he can write very well - and that at least is something to admire.
> 
> I also don't particularly agree with the definition of Ni as a third eye function. It's not mystical in the slightest - it's literally noticing patterns and making an intuitive leap to conclude what will probably happen next, or even how something came to happen, while missing actual evidence; 'There's a massive hole in the neighbour's garden.' First, there are the potential causes (all subconscious, and can be weird things like a sink hole), then Ni filters and thinks 'The neighbours probably wanted to make a pond, or something'. What comes out and what others hear is 'The neighbours are making a pond'. (Crummy example, but I'm tired.)


Sagan is a glory hunter, and irrelevant, pop scientist blip in the history of science. He has more Tonight Show appearances than relevant scientific papers. You would think he is a giant of philosophy and science by the standards of our internet age. Him and George Carlin are the patron saints of pseudointellectuals.

You just described how every human being reasons through the world. Ni projects symbols, archetypes.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> Sagan is a glory hunter, and irrelevant, pop scientist blip in the history of science. He has more Tonight Show appearances than relevant scientific papers. You would think he is a giant of philosophy and science by the standards of our internet age. Him and George Carlin are the patron saints of pseudointellectuals.
> 
> You just described how every human being reasons through the world. Ni projects symbols, archetypes.


tl;dr childish ranting


----------



## Pressed Flowers

The slice of 9 in me senses a fundamental disagreement which she is okay with on her thread, but which she will no longer like posts regarding because she is ignorant and knows nothing of Carl Sagan (other than that she just opened a video on YouTube with him talking about religion and it sounded kinda cool, but)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> The slice of 9 in me senses a fundamental disagreement which she is okay with on her thread, but which she will no longer like posts regarding because she is ignorant and knows nothing of Carl Sagan (other than that she just opened a video on YouTube with him talking about religion and it sounded kinda cool, but)


It's not even about Sagan at this point. He outright said he likes shitting on Sagan, especially in front of a fan. How is that not childish behavior?


----------



## owlet

FearAndTrembling said:


> Sagan is a glory hunter, and irrelevant, pop scientist blip in the history of science. He has more Tonight Show appearances than relevant scientific papers. You would think he is a giant of philosophy and science by the standards of our internet age. Him and George Carlin are the patron saints of pseudointellectuals.
> 
> You just described how every human being reasons through the world. Ni projects symbols, archetypes.


It's absolutely fine to state your opinion on him, but it's fairly irrelevant because none of us have actually met him, got to know him and/or extensively studied his mentality and therefore can only judge him by our own interpretations of his actions and words. That's not enough to come to a fixed conclusion, or at least it's not enough for me. It's not like he's done anything terrible anyway. Who cares if he's a blip? Most people are. What even is a pseudointellectual? What's an intellectual for that matter? It seems people attach pseudo to descriptors of people they don't agree with.

It was, as I said, a crummy example (too obvious to really illustrate it properly) but it does illustrate it to an extent, in the way it filters rather than playing with ideas like Ne (Was it a sink hole? Aliens? A giant worm? <- much more Ne). The part about intuitive leaps is just fine and is linked solely to the Ni function. It's not about symbols and archetypes. Not really. That's some mystic stuff people stuck onto the descriptions due to misunderstandings and glorification of a very human cognitive process. It's like saying Ni is about aha moments. Ni can seem like 'mystical' foresight as it's noting connections and predicting based on those.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> It's not even about Sagan at this point. He outright said he likes shitting on Sagan, especially in front of a fan. How is that not childish behavior?


That is a bit abrasive. @FearAndTrembling said that he likes playing devil's advocate though, and I think he probably doesn't realize how insulting this is to you. While the subject is personal to you, he probably doesn't realize that. (If he does realize he's pushing some deep buttons within you and he keeps doing it, that _would_ be either very childish or very inconsiderate, or perhaps both, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt here.) 

Perhaps we should just stop talking about Carl Sagan here, given this information. I hTe to pull this card, but this is my typing thread. I don't mind discussion, but if it's a disagreement where one party perceives that the other party is disrespecting them... That's a type of discussion I would rather not have on a thread of mine.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That is a bit abrasive. @_FearAndTrembling_ said that he likes playing devil's advocate though, and I think he probably doesn't realize how insulting this is to you. While the subject is personal to you, he probably doesn't realize that. (If he does realize he's pushing some deep buttons within you and he keeps doing it, that _would_ be either very childish or very inconsiderate, or perhaps both, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt here.)
> 
> Perhaps we should just stop talking about Carl Sagan here, given this information. I hTe to pull this card, but this is my typing thread. I don't mind discussion, but if it's a disagreement where one party perceives that the other party is disrespecting them... That's a type of discussion I would rather not have on a thread of mine.


Bear, I don't care that much about Sagan. I genuinely do believe he's being childish.

I thought we could have a conversation about different perceptions of beauty and depth, especially in relation to objectivity, but his insightful response was



FearAndTrembling said:


> Yeah, I saw that Sagan sig. lol. I like to take a shot at him when I can. Particularly in front of one of his fans. I had an Astronomy professor who knew him from Cornell. Said he was arrogant jerk. Which I already assumed anyway. Was glad to hear it confirmed though.


lol


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Bear, I don't care that much about Sagan. I genuinely do believe he's being childish.
> 
> I thought we could have a conversation about different perceptions of beauty and depth, especially in relation to objectivity, but his insightful response was
> 
> 
> 
> lol


I can see where that would be childish, but... I don't know. I'm really not that good at dealing with personal disagreements. I can see where he was coming from with his remarks, what he was attempting at, but I can also see where you would perceive his response childish. Given these disagreements, it probably is best that we just don't continue this discussion.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I can see where that would be childish, but... I don't know. I'm really not that good at dealing with personal disagreements. I can see where he was coming from with his remarks, what he was attempting at, but I can also see where you would perceive his response childish. Given these disagreements,* it probably is best that we just don't continue this discussion*.


I agree. I hope he's not tpying up another insightful post as we speak.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

alittlebear said:


> That is a bit abrasive. @_FearAndTrembling_ said that he likes playing devil's advocate though, and I think he probably doesn't realize how insulting this is to you. While the subject is personal to you, he probably doesn't realize that. (If he does realize he's pushing some deep buttons within you and he keeps doing it, that _would_ be either very childish or very inconsiderate, or perhaps both, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt here.)
> 
> Perhaps we should just stop talking about Carl Sagan here, given this information. I hTe to pull this card, but this is my typing thread. I don't mind discussion, but if it's a disagreement where one party perceives that the other party is disrespecting them... That's a type of discussion I would rather not have on a thread of mine.


How many atheists and other smug science hucksters run off at the mouth every chance they get? 

Carl Sagan insulted the beliefs of people 24/7. Nothing is sacred to that robot. He tears down things, I repay the favor. 

And he has no scientific contributions whatsoever. I want that to be clear.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> How many atheists and other smug science hucksters run off at the mouth every chance they get?
> 
> Carl Sagan insulted the beliefs of people 24/7. Nothing is sacred to that robot. He tears down things, I repay the favor.
> 
> And he has no scientific contributions whatsoever. I want that to be clear.


He's also dead, so you can stop with the butthurt. He can no longer insult anyone~


----------



## owlet

Back on topic, I was wondering what everyone's impressions of Ni were? I'm curious to learn about the different interpretations. @alittlebear how do you feel you perceive Ni usage in yourself?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'll be going back and responding to some of the older posts, but, while we're using my thread 
@angelcat Have you seen the trailer for Disney's Tomorrowland? 






Of course none of us have seen it yet, but this seems like the Si/Ne thing you were referring to as well. It sounds like they go to... well, as the trailers say, "a world where anything is possible." I see that and go, "... Okay, but what's the point?" (Of course I'm sure they will wrap it up with a point, but all the same.) 

I mean, we'll have to watch the movie to see what it's really about, the nature of the world there, but from what I've seen the concept seems sort of Ne.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> Back on topic, I was wondering what everyone's impressions of Ni were? I'm curious to learn about the different interpretations. @alittlebear how do you feel you perceive Ni usage in yourself?


It's hard to explain... I could come up with a good response, but now I'm not quite in the "explain connection to Ni" sort of mindset. (Not that I am complaining - I'm just trying to explain, this is going to be a lackluster explanation.) 

Ni for me is... hard to explain. I think I have explained it before as I just take in things in the world, process them subconsciously, and then pull them out whenever I need to. Which is what everyone does, of course, but... With Ni I have this thing in my head that I think of as "my understanding of the world," which isn't so much to me my understanding of the world so much as it is "The World," the truths I see in the world. And everything I take in - principles of math, principles of biology, literature, philosophy, history, academic things, but also the things I observe around me, the principles I see around me (principles as in patterns, fundamental truths, not principles in a moral way) acting out in my environment - I just sort of store in my head, add it to my understanding of the world, and when I'm asked a question or something or have to think about something I just pop out my understanding, combined with the knowledge I've accumulated from elsewhere that I sometimes have a hard time tracing back to one place, because it's combined with all the other truths I know. (This can make it seem like I'm pulling information out of nowhere... which I sort of am, because your own thoughts and truths do not count as a good source. Unfortunately.) 

And... I think that's basically the best explanation I have of my experience of Ni. Generally. 

But it does more things for me, day-to-day. My Ni helps me know right away what I'm going to do. When I was little, this made it hard for me. I was never living in the moment, I was living in anticipation of the moment and already spending too much time trying to make sense of the world I lived in. Now I'm better at connecting with the world and the moment, but when I wake up I still go "Okay, today I've got to do this, this, this, and if I don't do this I've got to push this to tomorrow, which will affect this, and this..." My mom is always telling me I need to get a schedule, a calendar... but she doesn't realize that I literally have a calendar tattooed like directly in my brain. If only I could get rid of it. I also get annoyed when she reminds me of time - "it's 5:00!" - because she doesn't realize that... my whole world is time. I know how to manipulate it to get what I want. I exist in time, time is so... central to my experience of life. I get annoyed when people remind me of time because I'm already concerned enough about it without them telling me how concerned by it I need to be. (Which is partial anxiety, admittedly.) 

And... I mean, there's other things. Me wanting to get to the truth of a text, a concept, a person. Me looking at someone and getting the false and arrogant sense that I know who they are as a person because in my head I do have this indescribable experience of them and an idea of who I perceive them as (sometimes they're colors...But the colors mean different things... It's hard to explain.) me thinking I know what's really going on in a situation even though I have no clue. Eight year old me knowing everything about her family drama and heartbreak even though her mother thought she was clueless because she was careful not to show any discomfort. 

This is an idea of what I think is Ni. Some of it may be Ti. Some may be Fe. Some of this I may be mistaking as Ni and may actually be Si/Ne. I'm not sure, but this is what I think I experience as Ni.
@hoopla I'll tag you in this because you seem pretty convinced of my Ni, you might be interested in my perception of it in relation to myself.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

shinynotshiny said:


> He's also dead, so you can stop with the butthurt. He can no longer insult anyone~


But he can be parroted. 

And one more point. Difference between Te-Fi/Fi-Te and Ti-Fe/Fe-Ti. I swear this works in sports like a charm. Try it sometime. I want to see a Te-Fi user who is a team player, or good coach. They are frontrunners. They are good, until things go bad. Compare Carmelo Anthony to Lebron James. There is not a better example in the world. Fe rises with anger. Fi folds, and tries to appeal to the crowd. It needs vindication. Fe is strong against the crowd. Fi is not. You are trying to save face, but you want out. You don't want to actually be challenged. You want comfort in your beliefs. 

In combat sports it is even more noticeable. Like the great Ti-Fe athlete Jim Brown said, 

'Make sure when anyone tackles you, he remembers how much it hurts.'


----------



## Pressed Flowers

FearAndTrembling said:


> But he can be parroted.
> 
> And one more point. Difference between Te-Fi/Fi-Te and Ti-Fe/Fe-Ti. I swear this works in sports like a charm. Try it sometime. I want to see a Te-Fi user who is a team player, or good coach. They are frontrunners. They are good, until things go bad. Compare Carmelo Anthony to Lebron James. There is not a better example in the world. Fe rises with anger. Fi folds, and tries to appeal to the crowd. It needs vindication. Fe is strong against the crowd. Fi is not. You are trying to save face, but you want out. You don't want to actually be challenged. You want comfort in your beliefs.
> 
> In combat sports it is even more noticeable. Like the great Ti-Fe athlete Jim Brown said,
> 
> 'Make sure when anyone tackles you, he remembers how much it hurts.'


Perhaps I am misinterpreting you - I hope I am misinterpreting you - but it does seem as if you are trying to (somewhat passive aggressively) say that Shinynotshiny is (weakly) looking for reassurance outside herself, "trying to save face," that she is not a good team player because of her disagreement with you... _and_ because she happens to be a strong Te user, which is, dare I say, a little typist (especially when directed at someone). 

This isn't exactly a personal attack, but I do find this a little low. Regardless if it's against the forum rules, this is not the type of regard towards others that I like to have, especially on my typing thread where any of this discussion is quite irrelevant anyway. 

Of course you are welcome to stay here and discuss functions, but I really would like this discussion with Shiny to stop, as it is getting towards personal frustration with the other with both of you, and I do not appreciate it.

Edit: Granted, she did call you childish, and that was also along these same lines of personal offense, but granted these things I do think that the conversation should stop between you two. Obviously it's not a friendly discussion between the two of you, and to be quite honest heated disagreements make me quite uncomfortable.


----------



## Vox

I've only looked through a few of the earliest and the latest pages in this thread, so I don't know _exactly_ where the Fe vs. Fi thing stands now, but I'm just gonna comment on the following:



alittlebear said:


> It's still so funny to me that you guys see me as textbook Fe.


Yep. I vote Fe as well. From the posts I've read from you, I've never had any doubt that you were an FJ. I like to read your posts because your Fe is _so _strong but you also don't...abuse it? That's not the right word, but in my opinion Fe is and has always been concerned with more than just _the group_ - at their best, I think Fe-users work very hard to strike a balance between each individual _and _the group as a whole. I get annoyed when it's written off as a function that works _just _for the group, like we see the group itself as one unit and care less about the actual people within it. I simply don't think that's what Fe _tends_ to do. But, I don't know, maybe I actually am glorifying it too much.



> I guess I do fit the classic descriptions of Fe pretty completely, but it's... odd, because I don't do the typically bad Fe things. I do guilt trip people, yes, I do charm people into getting what I want (this only didn't work for me once in high school, and honestly it upset me way more than it should have...), and I do just use my kindness and appeasing nature to wiggle through life... But I don't bully people for being different? I couldn't imagine bullying anyone, ever. I'm also always outside of the classic "cliques," people rarely want me in their group and I'm always on the fringes (which makes me sad, but it's true).
> 
> [...]
> 
> I don't do some classic Fe things like the cliques and the bullying and the fitting in. I'm the opposite of all of that. But I guess it's the cognitive process that counts, right?


I think those behaviours are more common to more...immature/unhealthy Fe-users. I'm not denying that Fe-users have the capacity to be pretty nasty no matter what stage of development/life the person is at, but I think mature Fe tends not to be hostile toward anyone unless they're perceived as a threat to others and the Fe-user has already tried all of the more civil ways to deal with or mitigate the threat with little result. Or they perceive them as too much of a threat to even risk trying tamer methods and just try to minimize the amount of damage done to their community straight away, viewing the threat as an outsider.

Complementary to that is the idea that perhaps you view all people as part of your "community," so in that sense no one is really markedly different (read: is an outsider) to you. You might be part of smaller, more local "communities" - your social circles and whatnot - but you do recognize this much larger community (call it the community of all (decent) humans) as well. I've heard people say that Fe-users will tend to prioritize the community most immediate to them - which I agree with - but since individuals make up communities and everyone is at least part of this larger community to you, then your default treatment of anyone you interact with (the most "immediate" you can get) is going to be one of respect and acceptance. It's only when they do something that removes themselves from the community in your mind (say, I don't know, killing another person in cold blood) when you'll be hostile towards them.



> I'm doing that with GOT now, but I don't understand why so many girls look up to Dany when it's pretty clear to me that she's a selfish tyrant, and I don't like selfish tyrants... As I reread the series, I'm trying to look for that spark that makes so many love her. (I mean I know they love her because she's a Strong Independent Woman, a pop feminist icon, but... Can they really forget the fact that she makes so many selfish, thoughtless decisions and just kills people she disagrees with? What does that say about the girls? But I can't judge the girls who like her...? It's a conundrum of sorts.)


I'm with you on Dany, but I also sympathize somewhat with the people who love her. I still like her, because even though she's made a lot of mistakes in her rule and has ordered the deaths of several people who really didn't deserve it, she has shown remarkable humility about her mistakes in the past and, I think more than any other character on the show, she is willing to listen to and heed others' advice. I just think she's struggling to deal with her preconceived notions of right and wrong now that she's inside this environment and culture she's completely unused to and in the process is falling back on what she thinks she _needs_ to do to be a successful ruler (rather than focusing on what is morally right/wrong; she seems to be avoiding that conflict in favour of not showing weakness, which I think is understandable given how Viserys treated her and how she thinks the world rests on her shoulders as the last Targaryen). I certainly don't agree with a lot of the decisions she's made so far in the show, but, as Varys said, she has potential as a ruler that is absent in many of the other prominent characters in GoT.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> It's hard to explain... I could come up with a good response, but now I'm not quite in the "explain connection to Ni" sort of mindset. (Not that I am complaining - I'm just trying to explain, this is going to be a lackluster explanation.)
> 
> Ni for me is... hard to explain. I think I have explained it before as I just take in things in the world, process them subconsciously, and then pull them out whenever I need to. Which is what everyone does, of course, but... With Ni I have this thing in my head that I think of as "my understanding of the world," which isn't so much to me my understanding of the world so much as it is "The World," the truths I see in the world. And everything I take in - principles of math, principles of biology, literature, philosophy, history, academic things, but also the things I observe around me, the principles I see around me (principles as in patterns, fundamental truths, not principles in a moral way) acting out in my environment - I just sort of store in my head, add it to my understanding of the world, and when I'm asked a question or something or have to think about something I just pop out my understanding, combined with the knowledge I've accumulated from elsewhere that I sometimes have a hard time tracing back to one place, because it's combined with all the other truths I know. (This can make it seem like I'm pulling information out of nowhere... which I sort of am, because your own thoughts and truths do not count as a good source. Unfortunately.)
> *I really like this description, actually. I think it shows the similarities, yet stark differences, between Ni and Si - while both rely on personal truths to an extent (this is also a bit Ti, so we'll say xSFJs and xNFJs), they process them very differently. The pulling information seemingly from nowhere is probably the subconscious processing of Ni, right?*
> 
> And... I think that's basically the best explanation I have of my experience of Ni. Generally.
> 
> But it does more things for me, day-to-day. My Ni helps me know right away what I'm going to do. When I was little, this made it hard for me. I was never living in the moment, I was living in anticipation of the moment and already spending too much time trying to make sense of the world I lived in. Now I'm better at connecting with the world and the moment, but when I wake up I still go "Okay, today I've got to do this, this, this, and if I don't do this I've got to push this to tomorrow, which will affect this, and this..." My mom is always telling me I need to get a schedule, a calendar... but she doesn't realize that I literally have a calendar tattooed like directly in my brain. If only I could get rid of it. I also get annoyed when she reminds me of time - "it's 5:00!" - because she doesn't realize that... my whole world is time. I know how to manipulate it to get what I want. I exist in time, time is so... central to my experience of life. I get annoyed when people remind me of time because I'm already concerned enough about it without them telling me how concerned by it I need to be. (Which is partial anxiety, admittedly.)
> *I do think this is partially Ni, but also anxiety. I used to work things out in terms of how much needed to be done in one day and wouldn't stop going until it was done, which was anxiety. The being stuck in the future is very much iNtuition though, most likely Ni.*
> 
> And... I mean, there's other things. Me wanting to get to the truth of a text, a concept, a person. Me looking at someone and getting the false and arrogant sense that I know who they are as a person because in my head I do have this indescribable experience of them and an idea of who I perceive them as (sometimes they're colors...But the colors mean different things... It's hard to explain.) me thinking I know what's really going on in a situation even though I have no clue. Eight year old me knowing everything about her family drama and heartbreak even though her mother thought she was clueless because she was careful not to show any discomfort.
> *I think this could show the Ni intuitive leap I mentioned previously, which can be right often, then sometimes be wrong. It likes to filter the information down to one possibility (in this case, about a person) and use that to perceive 'through', if that's the right word. I think the colours association has an actual name, but it's completely slipped my mind. It's a condition where you see/smell/taste colours in association with things.*
> 
> This is an idea of what I think is Ni. Some of it may be Ti. Some may be Fe. Some of this I may be mistaking as Ni and may actually be Si/Ne. I'm not sure, but this is what I think I experience as Ni.
> 
> @_hoopla_ I'll tag you in this because you seem pretty convinced of my Ni, you might be interested in my perception of it in relation to myself.


I do think that's a very good description of Ni. For a little bit, I wondered about Si for you, but this resolves those doubts. I'm not sure how pronounced it is still, but it's definitely dominant or auxiliary (probably more auxiliary, to be honest).


----------



## Max

Is this even a typing thread anymore? Bear, I am not gonna doubt you are more than likely an Fe-Dom. From what I have read of you, you seem to have a good grasp of Ni also. How's your Ti? I know you said you sometimes have a poor grasp of the psychical world, but wouldn't that appear more Se Inferior than Tertiary? Have you ever considered INFJ or do you think your Fe is too strong for that? You are definitely xNFJ, imo.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'll respond to you @Vox once I get my laundry folded, but to make sure I don't keep putting Laurie on the back burner like I have the bad tendency to do 


laurie17 said:


> I do think that's a very good description of Ni. For a little bit, I wondered about Si for you, but this resolves those doubts. I'm not sure how pronounced it is still, but it's definitely dominant or auxiliary (probably more auxiliary, to be honest).


Yes, I saw some doubts addressed in that one long post I still haven't gotten around to responding to. I think I still do some classically Si things. I love country music, sometimes even because it takes me back to my childhood. I like things that I see myself in. Sometimes I can see things as parts of me, as I think @angelcat sometimes describes Si as... I like some books because they seem like a representation of me, and I like outfits that fit who I think I am. 

But I think part of that comes from growing up in an Si-dominated culture / household (I live in the South, and have grown up with aunts who honestly showcase every Si type... not to mention my Si-dominant mother), and the fact that we all use all the functions. I've had to use Si more than I think a lot of NJs do (whenever I have retried to use intuition... It's completely rejected. I'm told to be quiet and mind my own business, stop worrying about "grown-up things" and stay in my place), but I use it very poorly. I suffer from the bad qualities of Intuitives as well - not being connected to my environment, being clumsy, not quite understanding basic things that are obvious to others and not being, as they say, "street smart". And, I mean, I experience Ni as I partially described above.  

I also agree that it's probably auxiliary. I was much more connected to the world growing up, when I sort of zoned out (my aux function probably hit me in the face along with the anxiety) and went towards introversion rather than naturally being introverted. I also don't have a good handle on my Ni. The Fe comes naturally - I can describe it all day, and it's so programmed into how my mind works - but with the Ni, as shown in my description, is a little harder for me to get a grasp on. I do think it's there, but it's not there nearly as strongly as I see so naturally with INxJs. 

Thank you so much for your help here though, @laurie17. You've really helped delve into my type, and you've even stayed around to politely see if I truly was an Ni-aux and not actually an SFJ. That's what I came here for (to this topic), to make sure I have the functions I thought I had. Of course everyone here has helped me find that,but I really especially appreciate your patience, as you've kept here for a while and it must have been especially difficult since I kept neglecting your well thought out responses for much lore than I should have.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh gosh, just realized I'm a Super Member now? That's kind of cool. I guess that's what happens when you post in a forum where you converse with others a lot.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

alittlebear said:


> Perhaps I am misinterpreting you - I hope I am misinterpreting you - but it does seem as if you are trying to (somewhat passive aggressively) say that Shinynotshiny is (weakly) looking for reassurance outside herself, "trying to save face," that she is not a good team player because of her disagreement with you... _and_ because she happens to be a strong Te user, which is, dare I say, a little typist (especially when directed at someone).
> 
> This isn't exactly a personal attack, but I do find this a little low. Regardless if it's against the forum rules, this is not the type of regard towards others that I like to have, especially on my typing thread where any of this discussion is quite irrelevant anyway.
> 
> Of course you are welcome to stay here and discuss functions, but I really would like this discussion with Shiny to stop, as it is getting towards personal frustration with the other with both of you, and I do not appreciate it.
> 
> Edit: Granted, she did call you childish, and that was also along these same lines of personal offense, but granted these things I do think that the conversation should stop between you two. Obviously it's not a friendly discussion between the two of you, and to be quite honest heated disagreements make me quite uncomfortable.


I know I am an idiot. I will stop

I think Fe tries to match the energy of people. But I take it too far, and am totally imbalanced, like I said. lol. I was playing around with her, and I have to match her energy. Actually outdo it. So she hits me with something on the level of 3, I am gonna hit back with a 6 at least.

Which is much different than Fi and Ti judgers. Somebody asked if Ti and Fi users were more likely start arguments, I said no, but they are more likely to prolong them. Ni doms want to finish the fight. They throw harder punches. They are looking for the knockout. Ni doms are the most aggressive people on the internet imo, but that is another subject.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Thank you so much for your help here though, @_laurie17_. You've really helped delve into my type, and you've even stayed around to politely see if I truly was an Ni-aux and not actually an SFJ. That's what I came here for (to this topic), to make sure I have the functions I thought I had. Of course everyone here has helped me find that,but I really especially appreciate your patience, as you've kept here for a while and it must have been especially difficult since I kept neglecting your well thought out responses for much lore than I should have.


Don't worry about it  I found the thread very interesting and was contributing more because I wanted to rather than with the expectation of receiving a response (which I tried to say very ineloquently in an earlier post). I was curious to see how things would progress and hopeful that any knowledge I had collected over the years might be helpful. I'm glad you seem to have come to the conclusion of your type!

ETA: Congrats on becoming a super member!


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> .
> Oswin: maybe if you can't resonate with Fe-dom, you're an aux-Fe instead?
> My Fe is kind of ... invisible unless I'm paying attention to it. I circle through Ti much more often -- my instinct is to emotionally react but then logic kicks in and holds the emotion back.


It's definitely a possibility. I think 'invisible' auxiliary Fe might make more sense than dominate? But I'm not convinced I'm an extrovert, nor that my Ti is stronger than my Ne...I'll have to ponder it.



> Phantom -- removes us from reality into a more idealized (if frightening) place -- a world of light and shadows, of intense desire, of fantastical things, or murder and redemption and ghost stories. It is exciting because it is heightened reality -- not reality, or at least, not a world we dwell in every day.
> 
> Les Miserables -- pulls us into the dirty streets of Paris, into an exploration of the human condition, into a devastating time in history, and swells within us immense emotion. It is reality to the extreme, pulling us back into history and forcing us to look at its trials, tribulations, and devastation upon innocent, idealistic souls.
> 
> One is drawing us into the fantastical, the other is grounding us in history. It makes sense to me that SJs would prefer Phantom, because it tickles their Ne, while Les Mis would tug on an NJ's Se.
> 
> Ironically, the villain and probably the main character of Les Mis are STJs, while the lead in PotO is a Ni-dom. Fascination with opposites.
> 
> ETA: I've known a lot of PotO fans over the years, and many of them enjoy imagining themselves in Christine's place -- what they would do, how they would react. I think that fiction, for SFJs, is very much escapism and PotO is the ultimate escapism. Leave your boring life behind and escape into the dungeons of a Paris opera house in the Victorian era, where a crazed eccentric who writes beautiful music is lost in his passion for an opera singer!


This makes so much sense! (don't have anything to add, just felt that a simple 'thank' was not enough))


----------



## Pressed Flowers

FearAndTrembling said:


> I know I am an idiot. I will stop
> 
> I think Fe tries to match the energy of people. But I take it too far, and am totally imbalanced, like I said. lol. I was playing around with her, and I have to match her energy. Actually outdo it. So she hits me with something on the level of 3, I am gonna hit back with a 6 at least.
> 
> Which is much different than Fi and Ti judgers. Somebody asked if Ti and Fi users were more likely start arguments, I said no, but they are more likely to prolong them. Ni doms want to finish the fight. They throw harder punches. They are looking for the knockout. Ni doms are the most aggressive people on the internet imo, but that is another subject.


Yes, I know you didn't mean to go that far. I do it too - sometimes I say things that are offensive or push too many buttons when really I'm just trying to, as you said, match the conversation... It's a struggle. Sometimes we need to be told that we're going too far. As I said though, I understand that you were not trying to be abrasive (even if you may have come across as such to a few of the participants here). 

Now we can hopefully move on, away from that. There are places for debate, and matching the tones of others, but this is not that place.


----------



## Immolate

I came back to this thread and apparently FearandTrembling took a shot at me? Don't know because I need to catch up, but not surprising.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> But he can be parroted.
> 
> And one more point. Difference between Te-Fi/Fi-Te and Ti-Fe/Fe-Ti. I swear this works in sports like a charm. Try it sometime. I want to see a Te-Fi user who is a team player, or good coach. They are frontrunners. They are good, until things go bad. Compare Carmelo Anthony to Lebron James. There is not a better example in the world. Fe rises with anger. Fi folds, and tries to appeal to the crowd. It needs vindication. Fe is strong against the crowd. Fi is not. You are trying to save face, but you want out. You don't want to actually be challenged. You want comfort in your beliefs.
> 
> In combat sports it is even more noticeable. Like the great Ti-Fe athlete Jim Brown said,
> 
> 'Make sure when anyone tackles you, he remembers how much it hurts.'


I think you need to stop with this foolishness.



FearAndTrembling said:


> I know I am an idiot. I will stop
> 
> I think Fe tries to match the energy of people. But I take it too far, and am totally imbalanced, like I said. lol. I was playing around with her, and I have to match her energy. Actually outdo it. So she hits me with something on the level of 3, I am gonna hit back with a 6 at least.
> 
> Which is much different than Fi and Ti judgers. Somebody asked if Ti and Fi users were more likely start arguments, I said no, but they are more likely to prolong them. Ni doms want to finish the fight. They throw harder punches. They are looking for the knockout. Ni doms are the most aggressive people on the internet imo, but that is another subject.


Confirmation of childish behavior.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

You may find it interesting that my INFJ friend gets color vibes from people. She's told me she sees me as green. She does it with nearly everything, from the night sky, to her favorite compositions, to the souls of people she knows. 

It's partly why I believe synesthesia may be a form of Ni.

Quit feeling arrogant. Every personality type has gifts unique to their cognition. Allow your ability to seep through fluidity reality to gain deep truths to really flourish. Don't let anyone who has interrogated or patronized you for your Ni to hamper your spirit. You're insightful enough to not let pride get to your head.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat I think I'll probably respond more to the two posts you just made, but I've been thinking for a while -- sometime you're going to have to explain to all the folks why you see Jean Valjean as _ISTJ_ as opposed to INFJ. I'm pretty sure quite a few people see him as a prototypical INFJ  (I don't really have an opinion, he's kinda just a good guy no matter what he is. It is funny that so many people see him as Ni, though... Hes very centered. Grounded. Deep, but not in a big way, more deep in a feeling way? I would be willing to hear arguments against INFJ.)


Are we talking about the book? the movie? the musical? which?

Been awhile since I've seen/read it, but I don't see Fe in him. He seems like a planner -- the way he takes over the mill and organizes it into a thriving business, making allowances for all the workers in the event that he must flee into the night. He rarely reveals his own emotions. He doesn't talk about them to anyone. Why would a Fe user abandon his daughter on her wedding day to go off and die alone? You could argue it's Fe worrying about how others will see her because of him, but it sounds more like self-shaming Fi to me. "I am worthless, because I know I am worthless. I am unworthy of you, beautiful Cosette. I will leave! ... without any explanation. Leave me to die alone in my shame." 

So .... Te/Fi. Fairly sure.

INTJ or ISTJ? Well, he's afraid of the future and prepares for different outcomes, so there's potential Ne there. Valjean is terribly careful, due to his past relationship with Javert. He is in no way a risk taker. Is there any inferior Se to be offered up as evidence?



> Tomorrowland... of course none of us have seen it yet, but this seems like the Si/Ne thing you were referring to as well. It sounds like they go to... well, as the trailers say, "a world where anything is possible." I see that and go, "... Okay, but what's the point?" (Of course I'm sure they will wrap it up with a point, but all the same.) I mean, we'll have to watch the movie to see what it's really about, the nature of the world there, but from what I've seen the concept seems sort of Ne.


Yeah, that could be a Si/Ne movie. Not sure. Doesn't interest me, personally.


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> You may find it interesting that my INFJ friend gets color vibes from people. She's told me she sees me as green. She does it with nearly everything, from the night sky, to her favorite compositions, to the souls of people she knows.
> 
> It's partly why I believe synesthesia may be a form of Ni.


Interestingly, my ENTJ friend actually has synesthesia; she sees letters as colors. It's very interesting.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> You may find it interesting that my INFJ friend can get color vibes from people. She's told me she sees me as green. She does it with really everything, from the night sky to the souls of people she knows.
> 
> It's partly why I believe synesthesia may be a form of Ni.


It's just funny because the only person I know who has synesthesia is my sister, who I'm pretty convinced is ESTJ. She just came into my room and did her cheer routine and I was thinking how better connected she is physically than I am. She could still be ENTJ, and using her Se, but she has something I don't have and I think part of that could be her Si. 

Her synesthesia isn't diagnosed - and it doesn't hinder her in any way, so we're not interested in getting her diagnosed - but we have her a screening test and she matched everything on it. She listens to songs and sees colors, she reads and sees colors, and hears names and sees colors. 

But I think that it's... different for her. I met a girl online probably five years ago who had synesthesia, and she said that it gave her color vibes from people, like she saw people as clouds of colors that she saw as their true selves, and she associated different colors with different personality traits. This girl made it clear that she didn't like me, but she told me that she still saw me as yellow and purple or something, that I had a bright aura and was just too ___ optimistic and positive. That's how she saw me. 

But my sister said I was "indigo," not because I was indigo as a person but because my name was indigo. She can do that, with names. But I don't think she does it with personalities like I do (in a not quite synesthetic way). 

And then I have a friend (she's actually posted here, I might be tagging a few of you on her topic soon) who is pretty Ne, and she also sees things in colors. She doesn't think she has synesthesia because she knows a girl who actually has it and she doesn't think she suffers from it, but since we were young she has described stuff in colors. It's really cool. But for her... I still think she's Ne, because she does some classic Ne things and is just Ne in an Ne way. 

I can see your point though, Hoopla. I think the idea of synesthesia is comparable to how I see personalities.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> I'll be going back and responding to some of the older posts, but, while we're using my thread
> @angelcat Have you seen the trailer for Disney's Tomorrowland?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course none of us have seen it yet, but this seems like the Si/Ne thing you were referring to as well. It sounds like they go to... well, as the trailers say, "a world where anything is possible." I see that and go, "... Okay, but what's the point?" (Of course I'm sure they will wrap it up with a point, but all the same.)
> 
> I mean, we'll have to watch the movie to see what it's really about, the nature of the world there, but from what I've seen the concept seems sort of Ne.


Lol you are such an Ni that I giggled.

My eyes lit up at such a concept before you even discussed your thoughts on it. There's the naivety of Ne... so excited at the prospects of a new world, a utopia, that reality is completely scrapped and anything goes. Ne is the promise land. Ni tears that promise land apart, much to Ne's chagrin. 

You don't have to worry about being an Ni. You are. The fact you don't relate to Tori or Obama is irrelevant... I merely cite them as an examples of Ni usage.

Synethesia is not an impairment, interestingly enough. It's described as merely a neurological difference of sensory stimuli, and cited as a spike of creativity. It may not be entirely Ni in origin, but I'd like to think the vast majority are Ni users... as in literally seeing colors or sounds or other alternate sensory realities.

As for me.... I compare myself to colors. They're not really vibes or stimulus per se, more like a representation. If my thoughts feel energetic, structured, systematized and motivated, yet peaceful, I'll label them as green, because I'm aware of what green already represents culturally. It's not synethesia, and certainly not Ni, because I'm not interpreting the sensory stimulus, removing myself from it to visualize mere images describing the incomprehensible, but taking a previous archetype to view my thoughts in a new angle.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Interestingly, my ENTJ friend actually has synesthesia; she sees letters as colors. It's very interesting.


I was a bit manipulative or something when I found out my sister had some synesthesia. We would be hanging around and I would go, "What color is that guy?" or "What color is our neighbor?" or "What color is the gifted teacher?" and she would go "I'm trying to do my homework..." I only did that for like half a day, but still. It wasn't quite kind of me. 

I imagine it must be difficult sometimes, but for my sister it doesn't bother her. She goes "oh, that's me!" when they read about synesthesia in her science class, but apart from that you wouldn't know the difference with her.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Is this even a typing thread anymore? Bear, I am not gonna doubt you are more than likely an Fe-Dom. From what I have read of you, you seem to have a good grasp of Ni also. How's your Ti? I know you said you sometimes have a poor grasp of the psychical world, but wouldn't that appear more Se Inferior than Tertiary? Have you ever considered INFJ or do you think your Fe is too strong for that? You are definitely xNFJ, imo.


Thank you for your response and confirmation.  

I used to say that I had pretty good Ti. I'm a good student, after all. And we want to think we're logical. But after spending some time in the Critical Thinking forum for a few days now, I'm not so sure I'm a Ti sort of person. I struggled. I was accused of using too much emotional appeal, which was weird to me because I felt like I was just... speaking fact, like it's fact that if you do this is hurts someone and to me if you hurt someone, it's logically flawed... The fact is, I was not being rational. I was using a load of manipulative pathos. I just never recognized it so much in myself before. 

I think my Ti is inferior. My Se sucks, but that might have something to do with not being able to walk and missing other milestones in physical development (I've always had a hard time with fine motor skills due to my neurological disabilities, and I had a harder time riding a bicycle when I was younger and playing sports as the other kids because I would have episodes and be unable to participate. I think that some of this is my Intuition, but some of it is very probably more neurological.) 

I do think my Fe is too strong to be INFJ. I can imagine being an ESFJ, but I can't imagine being an INTJ. As @hoopla often more or less says, Fe is my lifeblood. Even when I try to abandon it I'm not really abandoning it. It's ridiculous how much Fe I have in me, honestly.


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> Impartiality in what sense? The issue isn't who is right or wrong or who is being more argumentative/aggressive etc. but the fact this is very off-topic and could result in the thread being shut down, so regardless of anything else, it would be best to move it to PM.


Can threads really be shut down by going off-topic too much? :happy:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Can threads really be shut down by going off-topic too much? :happy:


They can and have been if it breaks down into an argument, like this is becoming (it's no longer a debate, it's just pettiness).


----------



## Tad Cooper

shinynotshiny said:


> The thread started discussing the differences between Fe and Fi because alittlebear was having doubts about her Fe. It only stands to reason we share both sides without personal opinion affecting the way we present each function.


It was the fact you two are being disruptive and petty, so you need to stop so this thread can continue to be awesome.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> They can and have been if it breaks down into an argument, like this is becoming (it's no longer a debate, it's just pettiness).


Oh, right, thanks for clarifying! :laughing:

EDIT: I should probably make a new post, but this one'll do. I think it'd be pertinent to know what Ni is like in other positions, like auxiliary, tertiary, inferior, or primary.


----------



## Immolate

tine said:


> It was the fact you two are being disruptive and petty, so you need to stop so this thread can continue to be awesome.




I'll let it go back to being awesome with its bias.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh, right, thanks for clarifying! :laughing:
> 
> EDIT: I should probably make a new post, but this one'll do. I think it'd be pertinent to know what Ni is like in other positions, like auxiliary, tertiary, inferior, or primary.


Potential starting point.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Potential starting point.


I kind of wanted to get information from the source, aka, Ni users like @alittlebear and @scintillating. No offence to @angelcat or anything, but first hand information is usually better than second hand.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> I kind of wanted to get information from the source, aka, Ni users like @_alittlebear_ and @_scintillating_. No offence to @_angelcat_ or anything, but first hand information is usually better than second hand.


I see your point :tongue:

For what it's worth, as someone who was typed INTJ, do you relate to any of those descriptions of Ni? Also, I believe alittlebear described her use of Ni a few posts ago.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I see your point :tongue:
> 
> For what it's worth, as someone who was typed INTJ, do you relate to any of those descriptions of Ni? Also, I believe alittlebear described her use of Ni a few posts ago.


Well, for what it's worth, I'm still tied between ISFP and INTJ. :dry: But as for relating to Ni descriptions... when I first read that post you linked me to about Ni positioning, back when I thought I was an ENTP, I was really confused, since Ni seemed too mystical and abstract for me to have. But now, it kind of makes sense, as I need a sense of meaning in something for me to be interested or attached to it. It's why I love shows like Evangelion, because the characters are so deep and complex, and the famed mind screw nature of it never got to me, as I could follow it implicitly. What I see Ni as, in myself (possibly), and in people around me, is the ability to turn things over and see new perspectives, it's why I think we seem mystical, because we notice this way before other types.

Quoting @angelcat again, she said that Ni users, from what she'd been told, deconstruct whereas Si builds upon, and that's exactly right, as well as it being bloody annoying because we can potentially deconstruct concepts like marriage and the meaning of life to a point where we don't think it matters. It's a point of argument between my parents and me, they want to get married, whereas I see it as pointless, what does it get you, bragging rights and a memory? But conversely, I can also appreciate symbolism in something a lot more, so there's a plus to it too. This may not be Ni objectively, but it's how I experience it.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, for what it's worth, I'm still tied between ISFP and INTJ. :dry: But as for relating to Ni descriptions... when I first read that post you linked me to about Ni positioning, back when I thought I was an ENTP, I was really confused, since Ni seemed too mystical and abstract for me to have. But now, it kind of makes sense, as I need a sense of meaning in something for me to be interested or attached to it. It's why I love shows like Evangelion, because the characters are so deep and complex, and the famed mind screw nature of it never got to me, as I could follow it implicitly. What I see Ni as, in myself (possibly), and in people around me, is the ability to turn things over and see new perspectives, it's why I think we seem mystical, because we notice this way before other types.
> 
> Quoting @_angelcat_ again, she said that Ni users, from what she'd been told, deconstruct whereas Si builds upon, and that's exactly right, as well as it being bloody annoying because we can potentially deconstruct concepts like marriage and the meaning of life to a point where we don't think it matters. It's a point of argument between my parents and me, they want to get married, whereas I see it as pointless, what does it get you, bragging rights and a memory? But conversely, I can also appreciate symbolism in something a lot more, so there's a plus to it too. This may not be Ni objectively, but it's how I experience it.


I'm tied between ISTJ and INTJ myself. I could never relate to most descriptions of Ni because, as you said, they painted Ni as a very mystical experience or thought process. Seemed completely illogical to me. I think everyone has gut reactions, but not everyone jumps on them and not everyone gets them right. It's starting to make more sense, especially when I stumble on descriptions of the Ni thought process and think to myself, "But that's common sense. Doesn't everyone think this way?" Then again, I can't be certain that everyone describing Ni actually uses Ni as strongly as they believe, or at all.

As far as deconstructing and building up, I know I like picking things apart and getting at the core, and I especially love symbolism, but I hesitate to call what I experience strong Ni. I think one of the potential problems when typing intuitive types is that Ni and Ne, especially Ni, is held in high regard and standards may go up when typing.


----------



## 68097

@Barakiel: in regards to your own ISFP/INTJ debate, I can only tell you what I "see" of Ni in my Ni-dom friends: it is a sense of entirely, continually, being lost in an inner world, detached from reality to the point where everything is reduced to abstract symbolism in a sense.

I know an INTJ who is almost stereotypical (except that he is profoundly religious, which is against type) in this manner, but he becomes obsessed with one concept ... for months at a time. He has been harping on one thing for as long as I have known him; mulling over it, examining it from different angles, intensely becoming lost in it, because to him, it is a thing that should not exist, that ideally is incorrect, that he cannot overcome in order to move on. He is TRAPPED by it. Ne would flit through it and be on to something else, but he's still mulling over it... months and possibly years later. 

Se/Ni is not as much like this. Having known SFPs, their Ni comes up in flits but is not continually strong, nor does it define and preoccupy their every waking moment in the way Ni does for a Ni-dom. Se pulls them away from that internalization, back into the external world, onto seeking the next experience or fount of information to soak up. Also, when dealing with them, as a sensor myself, there are not very many miscommunications between us, since we're on roughly the same wavelength -- sensory-oriented first, THEN the abstracting.

I realize that is, again, all second hand information, but ... maybe it'll be useful. Or not. SFPs tend to get lost in Fi, and cannot detach from it in order to make an objective decision as easily as an NTJ can. An NTJ would say, "This situation doesn't thrill me, but from a rational standpoint, this compromise must be made," whereas an SFP would fundamentally fight against that, and find it much harder to make that decision.

There's a television show called _Grimm_, with two characters who have strong Se/Te. Both extroverts, but it may help anyway. Renard is the NTJ, fully able to put aside his own desires and feelings in order to make a tactical, logical, factually-oriented decision -- which includes staging the fake kidnapping of his child from her mother, in order to protect all of them as individuals and ensure his daughter has a secure and safe future away from those who would abuse her. The mother of the child, Adalind, grasps this on a fundamental level, and knows that Diana would be much better off out of her arms, but as an SFP -- she cannot detach her emotions from the situation and would literally die fighting to keep that baby. 

So, when determining INTJ/ISFP ... can you put aside personal feeling and make a totally rational decision, or would that be extremely difficult for you? (Those with their feeling/thinking functions close together find this much easier than those with their feeling and thinking functions on the ends of the stacks. Fe-auxes can detach more easily than Fe-doms, etc.)


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I know an INTJ who is almost stereotypical (except that he is profoundly religious, which is against type) in this manner, but he becomes obsessed with one concept ... for months at a time. He has been harping on one thing for as long as I have known him; mulling over it, examining it from different angles, intensely becoming lost in it, because to him, it is a thing that should not exist, that ideally is incorrect, that he cannot overcome in order to move on. He is TRAPPED by it. Ne would flit through it and be on to something else, but he's still mulling over it... months and possibly years later.


Would you liken this to an obsessive or addictive personality? (Not in the bad way, of course.)


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm tied between ISTJ and INTJ myself. I could never relate to most descriptions of Ni because, as you said, they painted Ni as a very mystical experience or thought process. Seemed completely illogical to me. I think everyone has gut reactions, but not everyone jumps on them and not everyone gets them right. It's starting to make more sense, especially when I stumble on descriptions of the Ni thought process and think to myself, "But that's common sense. Doesn't everyone think this way?" Then again, I can't be certain that everyone describing Ni actually uses Ni as strongly as they believe, or at all.


Ah yeah, I can empathise, since I have a habit of judging others by my own standards, which is rather cool since my standards are rather low. :wink: One thing that I've found odd is that I love scenes in movies and shows that are completely one camera shot, no cut aways, it's rather odd, but you feel like you're moving with the camera. ISTJ and INTJ can be similar, I find, but an easy way to tell them apart for me is that ISTJs are usually skeptical of the future, INTJs welcome it and plan for it.



shinynotshiny said:


> As far as deconstructing and building up, I know I like picking things apart and getting at the core, and I especially love symbolism, but I hesitate to call what I experience strong Ni. I think one of the potential problems when typing intuitive types is that Ni and Ne, especially Ni, is held in high regard and standards may go up when typing.


I actually hold Ne in high regard, more than Ni. Why? Because Ni users in fiction are rather routine in their planning. Ne users bounce off walls and find all new inventive ways of doing stuff! :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Ah yeah, I can empathise, since I have a habit of judging others by my own standards, which is rather cool since my standards are rather low. :wink: One thing that I've found odd is that I love scenes in movies and shows that are completely one camera shot, no cut aways, it's rather odd, but you feel like you're moving with the camera. ISTJ and INTJ can be similar, I find, but an easy way to tell them apart for me is that ISTJs are usually skeptical of the future, INTJs welcome it and plan for it.


Anxiety makes it difficult to distinguish between the two, in my case, but I'm always hoping for "tomorrow."



Barakiel said:


> I actually hold Ne in high regard, more than Ni. Why? Because Ni users in fiction are rather routine in their planning. Ne users bounce off walls and find all new inventive ways of doing stuff! :laughing:


The bouncy energy is draining, but I agree about the inventiveness :tongue:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Anxiety makes it difficult to distinguish between the two, in my case, but I'm always hoping for "tomorrow."


Typing real people is never easy, I assure you. :wink: Ok, this example might be a bit weird, since both parties are kind of messed up, but me and my mother are Ni and Si, respectively. She wants me to stick with the course I'm doing to get a job, whereas I don't want to do it anymore because I'm not motivated and it isn't interesting enough to stick with. Sure, I'm good at it, and I can fix computers easily, but I don't want to slug through the hundred hours necessary to get a job where I won't necessarily be doing that. Same with part time jobs, I just don't see the point in getting one when you're likely to drop it, why get the manager's hopes up? :dry:



angelcat said:


> The bouncy energy is draining, but I agree about the inventiveness :tongue:


Yeah, it is rather draining, but a real spectacle to witness. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Typing real people is never easy, I assure you. :wink: Ok, this example might be a bit weird, since both parties are kind of messed up, but me and my mother are Ni and Si, respectively. She wants me to stick with the course I'm doing to get a job, whereas I don't want to do it anymore because I'm not motivated and it isn't interesting enough to stick with. Sure, I'm good at it, and I can fix computers easily, but I don't want to slug through the hundred hours necessary to get a job where I won't necessarily be doing that. Same with part time jobs, I just don't see the point in getting one when you're likely to drop it, why get the manager's hopes up? :dry:
> Yeah, it is rather draining, but a real spectacle to witness. :laughing:


It could be laziness on my part or dismissing something that doesn't do anything for me long-term


----------



## Barakiel

Sorry for taking so long, you really do type a lot. :laughing:



angelcat said:


> @Barakiel: in regards to your own ISFP/INTJ debate, I can only tell you what I "see" of Ni in my Ni-dom friends: it is a sense of entirely, continually, being lost in an inner world, detached from reality to the point where everything is reduced to abstract symbolism in a sense.
> 
> I know an INTJ who is almost stereotypical (except that he is profoundly religious, which is against type) in this manner, but he becomes obsessed with one concept ... for months at a time. He has been harping on one thing for as long as I have known him; mulling over it, examining it from different angles, intensely becoming lost in it, because to him, it is a thing that should not exist, that ideally is incorrect, that he cannot overcome in order to move on. He is TRAPPED by it. Ne would flit through it and be on to something else, but he's still mulling over it... months and possibly years later.
> 
> Se/Ni is not as much like this. Having known SFPs, their Ni comes up in flits but is not continually strong, nor does it define and preoccupy their every waking moment in the way Ni does for a Ni-dom. Se pulls them away from that internalization, back into the external world, onto seeking the next experience or fount of information to soak up. Also, when dealing with them, as a sensor myself, there are not very many miscommunications between us, since we're on roughly the same wavelength -- sensory-oriented first, THEN the abstracting.


Huh, so it is Te types that can be against religion, that's interesting, might explain my complete despising of it. I can empathize with the trapping, though, it's kind of how I am now, actually, so lost in my own interpretation of events that I ignore the reality that I'm wasting my life. :tongue: Though I will say that I find it hard to stick to one concept, even in my abstractions, I just find another viewpoint and another truth to meld into my own. As for miscommunications... uh, yeah, there's a lot between me and Si users, either my granddad treating me like a kid, my mother treating my entire schooling life as just a stepping stone to more work, etc etc.



angelcat said:


> I realize that is, again, all second hand information, but ... maybe it'll be useful. Or not. SFPs tend to get lost in Fi, and cannot detach from it in order to make an objective decision as easily as an NTJ can. An NTJ would say, "This situation doesn't thrill me, but from a rational standpoint, this compromise must be made," whereas an SFP would fundamentally fight against that, and find it much harder to make that decision.


Oh no, I didn't mean to sound ungrateful, it's like judging something from a photo of it rather than seeing it for yourself, it's of lower quality. (And here I go back to insulting you again, *LOVELY*. :dry: )



angelcat said:


> There's a television show called _Grimm_, with two characters who have strong Se/Te. Both extroverts, but it may help anyway. Renard is the NTJ, fully able to put aside his own desires and feelings in order to make a tactical, logical, factually-oriented decision -- which includes staging the fake kidnapping of his child from her mother, in order to protect all of them as individuals and ensure his daughter has a secure and safe future away from those who would abuse her. The mother of the child, Adalind, grasps this on a fundamental level, and knows that Diana would be much better off out of her arms, but as an SFP -- she cannot detach her emotions from the situation and would literally die fighting to keep that baby.
> 
> So, when determining INTJ/ISFP ... can you put aside personal feeling and make a totally rational decision, or would that be extremely difficult for you? (Those with their feeling/thinking functions close together find this much easier than those with their feeling and thinking functions on the ends of the stacks. Fe-auxes can detach more easily than Fe-doms, etc.)


Grimm... I wonder, is it a grim show? Possibly set in the post apocalypse? I want $10 for stereotyping, Johnny! :dry:

Joking aside, I have another situation kind of similar to this, a friend of my step-dad's can't have children, so she decided to treat her dogs like humans to compensate (I know, utterly stupid.). What I can't get over, is why didn't she just adopt?! It's a perfectly sensible and rational thing to do, so WHY NOT?! ... Ahem, anyway. 

That's the thing, in some situations, I can, but in others, I really can't, it's quite a conundrum.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> It could be laziness on my part or dismissing something that doesn't do anything for me long-term


I thought Te types weren't lazy?! Or were the stereotypical pages I read wrong?! :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> I thought Te types weren't lazy?! Or were the stereotypical pages I read wrong?! :laughing:


Oh, uh. What is laziness 

I imagine Te-doms would be more proactive.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh, uh. What is laziness
> 
> I imagine Te-doms would be more proactive.


Certainly, yes. :laughing: But you know most sites, us NTJs have to be monarchial, dominating figures of power who are either taking over the world, or dead. :dry:

EDIT: And I've derailed another thread... it's a freaking talent.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Yeaaah, it's why I tend to not criticise people too much! Easier to just let them have their views, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone! Also, how did you settle on INTJ for your type? Also, is Ni similar for you as for laurie17?


Ha, I wish I could have that luxury. :happy: And, please, don't think that I've settled on it, it's pretty much just the most likely. :laughing: But as for Ni... I don't know, some say I have it in spades, some say I use Fi more since I don't ponder the deep nature of my feelings, and a part of me even thinks I'm ENFP, cause why not. :wink: But the main reason I think I'm Ni, is because I deconstruct things to the core, so much so that I'm pretty much unaffected by tragedies in the world, I just know that they won't stop there. Though I'm certainly not the most dutiful, for example, I should be sleeping now since it's 4:40am, but I can't cause I might miss something here, and you guys are so interesting to talk to, as is the topics and tangents we go to. :kitteh:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> DANGER! DANGER!


Oh wow, is that from the old Alice in Wonderland cartoon, back from the 70s? :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Oh wow, is that from the old Alice in Wonderland cartoon, back from the 70s? :laughing:


'Tis. :kitteh:

(though the movie is actually from 1951 )


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> Yeaaah, it's why I tend to not criticise people too much! Easier to just let them have their views, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone! Also, how did you settle on INTJ for your type?* Also, is Ni similar for you as for laurie17?*


Oh no, I didn't mean it was that way for me, but rather that's my understanding on Ni. How do you think it manifests as a tert function for you?


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> 'Tis. :kitteh:
> 
> (though the movie is actually from 1951 )


Huh, looks good for 1951.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Ha, I wish I could have that luxury. :happy: And, please, don't think that I've settled on it, it's pretty much just the most likely. :laughing: But as for Ni... I don't know, some say I have it in spades, some say I use Fi more since I don't ponder the deep nature of my feelings, and a part of me even thinks I'm ENFP, cause why not. :wink: But the main reason I think I'm Ni, is because I deconstruct things to the core, so much so that I'm pretty much unaffected by tragedies in the world, I just know that they won't stop there. Though I'm certainly not the most dutiful, for example, I should be sleeping now since it's 4:40am, but I can't cause I might miss something here, and you guys are so interesting to talk to, as is the topics and tangents we go to. :kitteh:


But what do you mean by deconstructing?
Anyone can deconstruct a societal phenomenon. You just go, "Oh, marriage is dumb because it's just a party to show that two people are going to have sex how primitive omg but primitive also means nothing nothing means anything how boring" and I would probably associate that most with Ti and then with Te as well. But do you 'deconstruct' to find a central meaning? The core of something? I don't think it's Ni unless it's looking for the 'true meaning'...though I could be wrong, Ni is _really_ confusing to me.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Oswin said:


> But what do you mean by deconstructing?
> Anyone can deconstruct a societal phenomenon. You just go, "Oh, marriage is dumb because it's just a party to show that two people are going to have sex how primitive omg but primitive also means nothing nothing means anything how boring" and I would probably associate that most with Ti and then with Te as well. But do you 'deconstruct' to find a central meaning? The core of something? I don't think it's Ni unless it's looking for the 'true meaning'...though I could be wrong, Ni is _really_ confusing to me.


Ti and Ni can be hard to tell apart. INTP and INFJ often get confused. As do ISTP and INFJ. I will focus on ISTP vs INFJ, because they have the same functions:

Ti dissects things. It deconstructs. It isn't abstract in itself. Ti is basically a system. I find Ti doms and Ti aux can be a bit too mechanical for me sometimes.

I think the difference between ISTP and INFJ, Ti-Ni vs Ni-Ti, is that ISTP begins with a system. INFJ ends with a system. INFJ begins with a large synthesis. Making many into one. That is abstraction. And then Ti deconstructs/systemizes the Ni-Fe synthesis.

This why Jung listed Nietzsche as an intuitive dominant. He explains why. Ni puts the "facts" of their psychology first:

*He must surely be reckoned as an intuitive type with an inclination towards the side of introversion. As evidence of the former we have his pre-eminently intuitive, artistic manner of production, of which this very work The Birth of Tragedy is highly characteristic, while his master work Thus Spake Zarathustra is even more so. His aphoristic writings are expressive of his introverted intellectual side. These, in spite of a strong admixture of feeling, exhibit a pronounced critical intellectualism in the manner of the French intellectuals of the eighteenth century. His lack of rational moderation and conciseness argues for the intuitive type in general Under these circumstances it is not surprising that in his initial work he unwittingly sets the facts of his own personal psychology in the foreground. This is all quite in harmony with the intuitive attitude, which characteristically perceives the outer through the medium of the inner, sometimes even at the expense of reality. By means of this attitude he also gained deep insight into the Dionysian qualities of his unconscious, the crude forms of which, so far as we know, reached the surface of consciousness only at the outbreak of his illness, although they had already revealed their presence in various erotic allusions.
*
And Spinoza summed up Ni well too:

_To know is then to love God, and the more we know the more we love God (Propositions 15, 24, Part V). It is this love of God that constitutes for Spinoza the summum bonum, that which makes for human happiness. Because of the essential role of this kind of knowledge in Spinoza’s philosophy a special term is used by Spinoza to characterize it: scientia intuitiva, or “intuitive knowledge.” From an epistemological vantage-point this kind of knowledge is superior to both sense-perception and inference._

*It is complete and systematic, unlike the fragmentary and partial character of sense-experience; it is synthetic and categorical, unlike the discursive and hypothetical nature of inference. Intuitive cognition enables us to perceive the whole of reality in a comprehensive grasp, wherein everything is “clear and distinct.” From this insight we are then able to “descend” to the individual elements of nature and see their mutual relationships in a way that was only dimly, partially, or sequentially perceived heretofore. With intuitive knowledge everything becomes systematically intelligible.*


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> *Intuitive cognition enables us to perceive the whole of reality in a comprehensive grasp, wherein everything is “clear and distinct.” From this insight we are then able to “descend” to the individual elements of nature and see their mutual relationships in a way that was only dimly, partially, or sequentially perceived heretofore.*


I would say this sums up my understanding of it.


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Ha, I wish I could have that luxury. :happy: And, please, don't think that I've settled on it, it's pretty much just the most likely. :laughing: But as for Ni... I don't know, some say I have it in spades, some say I use Fi more since I don't ponder the deep nature of my feelings, and a part of me even thinks I'm ENFP, cause why not. :wink: But the main reason I think I'm Ni, is because I deconstruct things to the core, so much so that I'm pretty much unaffected by tragedies in the world, I just know that they won't stop there. Though I'm certainly not the most dutiful, for example, I should be sleeping now since it's 4:40am, but I can't cause I might miss something here, and you guys are so interesting to talk to, as is the topics and tangents we go to. :kitteh:


Haha, I actually thought while reading your posts that you seemed to use a lot of what appeared to be Ne. Not really because of the lack of going to bed, but because of enjoying so many perspectives (you said that somewhere earlier) while reminded me of Ne users I'd spoken to before (obviously not conclusive). I was actually wondering if you were ENTP, which would explain the deconstructing. Ni is more about filtering down possibilities and making the final leap while lacking evidence, while Ti is more about breaking things down into minute parts in order to better categorise them (fit them into their rightful places on the Ti mental bookshelf) and I found a post here which seemed pretty good for Ti vs Fi.



ferroequinologist said:


> This, and the video in the following post, seem to miss something. I think that Ti and Fi are both very similar processes, but operate in different spheres, but where there is overlap, they may actually be very similar.
> 
> Fi operates in the sphere of what is right or wrong, good or bad, helpful or harmful, and yes, like and dislike (but that is only a minor part of the whole).
> 
> Ti operates in the sphere of correct or incorrect, logical or illogical, useful, not useful, relevant or non-relevant.
> 
> To the Ti type, these things become just as emotionally attaching as the values for Fi. How such emotions are aroused or expressed, of course, differs wildly from the Fi type, but the emotions become as attached to these with Ti values as Fi values to the Fi type.


http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/3074-ti-v-fi-closer-look-17.html

What do you think?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Hi, I'm still looking at page 61 now, but on the subject of adoption... I want to adopt. I'm motivated to make a stable life for myself so I can become a person who can be eligible for adoption. My dad tries to tell me "you can't understand love until you have a child of your own..." I'll understand love every time I work with a child, ever. Or a person really, but especially children. And honestly I can't perceive ever treating a child of my own blood differently than an adopted child who was mine. It just doesn't make sense to me. 

(Not sure why we're discussing adoption, but I saw someone mention adoption and I think parents not feeling attached, and... Yeah, I don't get that. If you don't look at a kid and love them just because they're not your blood... You're shallow. And it's okay to be shallow, until that shallowness hurts someone else. As it would be here. 

I know people, friends, who have suffered under the American foster care system... so I'm very passionate about working to reform it (although I don't know enough hard facts about the system to speak of it's flaws...) I mean, not to get into abortion, but I get so frustrated when people say "Abortion needs to happen so kids don't have to go into foster care homes, because they're awful." I understand that point and find it compassionate towards the child-to-be... but shouldn't we be working to make foster care systems better? For the kids who are alive now, the ones who are currently suffering? Honestly that's why I'm not passionate about abortion issues anymore. There are kids right now in our country who anyone can agree are living and they're going through hell while no one cares for them or works to improve their conditions. I think anyone can get behind foster care reform, regardless of political stance, and I'm really surprised there's nothing going on about it yet :/ 

Ahh. That aside. Still making my way through the pages now ~


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Wow, that's easy for you? It's exhausting as hell if I try to do it, I usually work better in short bursts, with music, and food. Yeah, I'm lazy as hell, deal with it. :wink: If I don't care about a topic, I won't even bother doing anything with it, just figure out the minimum effort needed and automate myself.


Ah! On the topic of writing a lot... I once wrote my friend a 40page handwritten letter. Front and back, full pages. I can babble someone's ears off if they give me that chance.

I'm moved by different emotional things, personally. Sometimes something will hit me hard, other times it won't. I didn't feel anything during any of the romantic scenes from the Titanic - it was so fake, I guess, even though the movie was still great - but when they had that mother singing her children to sleep as the boat sank... my heart died. I sobbed so loud people for rooms around heard me. That's real. That represents what so many mothers go through, not only when they and their children face certain death but when their children face uncertain but atrocious circumstance. They want the best for their babies, but sadly the world doesn't work that way. And they have to hide it from them even though they know it'll all crash down. Just... ugh, burr, it makes me so sad, stuff like that. 

I guess I could go on all day. How I don't think those stories about the kid who broke his leg and was out for a season are sad, or stories about girls who were injured so they had to quit their sport, but I'm a lot more moves by stores of international pain or things felt because of racism or something. It's hard to explain why. I think part of it may be because I know what it's like to have to stop playing a sport or something due to disability, and while it's sad at least people love them and support them still and like... they're still alive...? While with things like racism and the terrible things that happen internationally (sometimes even at the hands of the US), that's more ongoing, that's still happening, that's always painful, and they get so little justice, safety, sympathy. Burr. 

But different things bother me differently when it comes to emotion, ultimately.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I would say this sums up my understanding of it.


Is that agreement I spot


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Ha, I wish I could have that luxury. :happy: And, please, don't think that I've settled on it, it's pretty much just the most likely. :laughing: But as for Ni... I don't know, some say I have it in spades, some say I use Fi more since I don't ponder the deep nature of my feelings, and a part of me even thinks I'm ENFP, cause why not. :wink: But the main reason I think I'm Ni, is because I deconstruct things to the core, so much so that I'm pretty much unaffected by tragedies in the world, I just know that they won't stop there. Though I'm certainly not the most dutiful, for example, I should be sleeping now since it's 4:40am, but I can't cause I might miss something here, and you guys are so interesting to talk to, as is the topics and tangents we go to. :kitteh:


Oh, you could be ENFP, they're pretty fun! Some INTJs have a lot of Fi though! Is it just Fi that makes you doubt it? 



laurie17 said:


> Oh no, I didn't mean it was that way for me, but rather that's my understanding on Ni. How do you think it manifests as a tert function for you?


I'm not entirely sure about Ni, it confuses me. People refer to it as gut instinct and I find I prefer to think about things before acting on just a feeling. Would you say that sounds like tert Ni or have I got the definition wrong?


fair phantom said:


> 'Tis. :kitteh:
> 
> (though the movie is actually from 1951 )


Great film.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@tine Did you find my post about my experience of Ni? I could quote it for you if you would like. 

I'll type up something on Fe, but right now I'm honestly a bit sleepy.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Is that agreement I spot


You should know me better, alittlebear. I don't disagree with someone just to spite them :shocked:

Also, this is how I see Ni, but who knows if I'm on the right track:


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> @_tine_ Did you find my post about my experience of Ni? I could quote it for you if you would like.
> 
> I'll type up something on Fe, but right now I'm honestly a bit sleepy.


That's be great if you don't mind? Thank you, feel free to do it whenever you want to!!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

tine said:


> That's be great if you don't mind? Thank you, feel free to do it whenever you want to!!


You true 9 cores. So kind. 

I'll be right back with it; don't go away!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@tine ah, here it is. A bit messy, but hopefully it will give you some idea. Feel free to ask any questions you might have.


alittlebear said:


> It's hard to explain... I could come up with a good response, but now I'm not quite in the "explain connection to Ni" sort of mindset. (Not that I am complaining - I'm just trying to explain, this is going to be a lackluster explanation.)
> 
> Ni for me is... hard to explain. I think I have explained it before as I just take in things in the world, process them subconsciously, and then pull them out whenever I need to. Which is what everyone does, of course, but... With Ni I have this thing in my head that I think of as "my understanding of the world," which isn't so much to me my understanding of the world so much as it is "The World," the truths I see in the world. And everything I take in - principles of math, principles of biology, literature, philosophy, history, academic things, but also the things I observe around me, the principles I see around me (principles as in patterns, fundamental truths, not principles in a moral way) acting out in my environment - I just sort of store in my head, add it to my understanding of the world, and when I'm asked a question or something or have to think about something I just pop out my understanding, combined with the knowledge I've accumulated from elsewhere that I sometimes have a hard time tracing back to one place, because it's combined with all the other truths I know. (This can make it seem like I'm pulling information out of nowhere... which I sort of am, because your own thoughts and truths do not count as a good source. Unfortunately.)
> 
> And... I think that's basically the best explanation I have of my experience of Ni. Generally.
> 
> But it does more things for me, day-to-day. My Ni helps me know right away what I'm going to do. When I was little, this made it hard for me. I was never living in the moment, I was living in anticipation of the moment and already spending too much time trying to make sense of the world I lived in. Now I'm better at connecting with the world and the moment, but when I wake up I still go "Okay, today I've got to do this, this, this, and if I don't do this I've got to push this to tomorrow, which will affect this, and this..." My mom is always telling me I need to get a schedule, a calendar... but she doesn't realize that I literally have a calendar tattooed like directly in my brain. If only I could get rid of it. I also get annoyed when she reminds me of time - "it's 5:00!" - because she doesn't realize that... my whole world is time. I know how to manipulate it to get what I want. I exist in time, time is so... central to my experience of life. I get annoyed when people remind me of time because I'm already concerned enough about it without them telling me how concerned by it I need to be. (Which is partial anxiety, admittedly.)
> 
> And... I mean, there's other things. Me wanting to get to the truth of a text, a concept, a person. Me looking at someone and getting the false and arrogant sense that I know who they are as a person because in my head I do have this indescribable experience of them and an idea of who I perceive them as (sometimes they're colors...But the colors mean different things... It's hard to explain.) me thinking I know what's really going on in a situation even though I have no clue. Eight year old me knowing everything about her family drama and heartbreak even though her mother thought she was clueless because she was careful not to show any discomfort.
> 
> This is an idea of what I think is Ni. Some of it may be Ti. Some may be Fe. Some of this I may be mistaking as Ni and may actually be Si/Ne. I'm not sure, but this is what I think I experience as Ni.
> 
> @hoopla I'll tag you in this because you seem pretty convinced of my Ni, you might be interested in my perception of it in relation to myself.


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> I'm not entirely sure about Ni, it confuses me. People refer to it as gut instinct and I find I prefer to think about things before acting on just a feeling. Would you say that sounds like tert Ni or have I got the definition wrong?


Hm, no, I'd say that's a dominant introverted function. Ti is very much about, as I said before, breaking things down into little sections in order to better evaluate (based on their own sort of 'bookcase' system where some book types will fit easier than others and some will require a restructuring of the bookcase which, of course, the individual is loath to do as it takes a lot of reshuffling).


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Hi, I'm still looking at page 61 now, but on the subject of adoption... I want to adopt. I'm motivated to make a stable life for myself so I can become a person who can be eligible for adoption. My dad tries to tell me "you can't understand love until you have a child of your own..." I'll understand love every time I work with a child, ever. Or a person really, but especially children. And honestly I can't perceive ever treating a child of my own blood differently than an adopted child who was mine. It just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> (Not sure why we're discussing adoption, but I saw someone mention adoption and I think parents not feeling attached, and... Yeah, I don't get that. If you don't look at a kid and love them just because they're not your blood... You're shallow. And it's okay to be shallow, until that shallowness hurts someone else. As it would be here.
> 
> I know people, friends, who have suffered under the American foster care system... so I'm very passionate about working to reform it (although I don't know enough hard facts about the system to speak of it's flaws...) I mean, not to get into abortion, but I get so frustrated when people say "Abortion needs to happen so kids don't have to go into foster care homes, because they're awful." I understand that point and find it compassionate towards the child-to-be... but shouldn't we be working to make foster care systems better? For the kids who are alive now, the ones who are currently suffering? Honestly that's why I'm not passionate about abortion issues anymore. There are kids right now in our country who anyone can agree are living and they're going through hell while no one cares for them or works to improve their conditions. I think anyone can get behind foster care reform, regardless of political stance, and I'm really surprised there's nothing going on about it yet :/
> 
> Ahh. That aside. Still making my way through the pages now ~


Adoption is a wonderful thing as long as the adopter is prepared for it's particular challenges, as I trust you will be  I love your attitude about children. I don't intend to have children (though I may one day feel called to adopt, at the moment I do not feel called to be a parent and I can't afford to be one), but that doesn't mean I don't care about them. I just feel I am meant to help them in a different way. I feel it is important to work towards the wellbeing of all children. One part of that is reforming the foster care system. I completely agree with you that this issue is of great importance.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> fwiw your Ne does sound quite beautiful  There are clear advantages in it, that kind of pure creativity and... seeing. In some ways I think it could help you perceive reality better, even if others might not see it in that same way. After all, you've been surviving life pretty well with that Ne lens so far, you know?


Aw, thank you. I think you're Fe sounds so kind and wonderful, and with Ni you can be so productive.  
I've realized that I need to be with judgers in my life, because without you guys, I'd never get anything done.

Ne can very useful, and I do perceive reality in creativity. That's basically what Ne is...creation. It's not the clear, as-is way of Se, but it's stable and almost, fun, in a way. I definitely couldn't imagine myself without it. 

It does have some fallacies as well, such as _horrible_ over-idealization, as I said before. Oh, and that doesn't even begin to mention how blatantly unorganized and overly-impulsive I am...sadly.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Aha, that reminds me a bit of the relationship with my mom (ESFJ) and dad (ENTJ).
> 
> For example, one day my parents and I were on this award ceremony vacation for this science-fair thing I one a few years ago. We had a free day, and my father wanted to plan out what were going to do that day. While my father had this very well-thought-out, accurate schedule, my mom was attempting to fit in 4,000 things- somehow thinking that we could do them all in such a short period of time. My father was baffled that she couldn't comprehend how there was no _possible_ way we could do all of that in the amount of time we had, but she seemed to not comprehend his comprehension, per se. We ended up not going barely anywhere at all, since have the time they were arguing over where to go. They still love each other dearly, though. But sometimes they're impossible because their schedules oppose each other so much. Oh, and there's me- sitting in the back of the car staring at the trees and thinking they look like broccoli.
> 
> Ne-Fi-Te-Si is very innate for me, so of course I can't quite see how someone else couldn't understand it, but of course, that's because that is what I use.
> 
> Ne for me is weird. Despite the statistics that say ENFPs make up 6-8% of the population, I've only met one other Ne-dom, and he was an ENTP. Thus, my train of thought is pretty alien to everyone around me.
> 
> Basically, for me, it's as if nothing in the world _actually_ exists. It's only in a growth state. I don't see things as they are, but rather as they could be. Everything could be grown more, changed, altered, nothing is as it could be. Everything looks like something else, everything is only half-complete. Everywhere I go, I see the possibilities of something, and I barely ever just see something for what it is. Basically- "the world is a utopia half-made", is how my mind works. It's actually pretty difficult to explain it, because Ne is what I live and breathe, but I have a very good understanding of the connections of things, patterns, how they relate, and how they can be changed. I have an inner system of millions of ideas, which I mish-mosh together to achieve my goals and whatnot. In order to achieve my goals and come up with ideas, I need external output. Ne needs external things to work. As a result, I want to know everything about everything, and learn as much as I can. Thanks to my Fi, I also have very weird values and opinions, and have an odd and eccentric outlook on the world. Te accounts for the goals I can make, and Si accounts for my inability to reflect on my past.


You mean to say your Ne isn't like burnt popcorn? :shocked:

(Lovely post, Goose)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Discussing time with other people is so frustrating to me. They don't get it. I use the example of how we were always late to school (which gave me a heart attack every time because if you're late so many times to school you get suspension, and gosh, I did not want suspension for my mother not getting out of the house in time...), and like my mom just did not understand how time worked. You have to leave the house thirty minutes early to get to school - fifty minutes early to be sure of traffic - but she would procrastinate and sometimes we would only get out of there twenty minutes before school started. Basically making it impossible for me to get to school on time. We would be doing good, on time... Then my mom would see my grandfather and have to have a fifteen minute chat with him about whatever it was they chatted about. And I was stressing out, not only with my anxiety disorder but also because... well,come on mom, obviously this is wasting time... but she couldn't understand that. How her fifteen minute conversation docked us fifteen minutes in the car. I don't know, it's incomprehensible to me how someone could not get these things, and I'm misrepresenting my mom's understanding here I'm sure... but still, like, she doesn't get time. She'll plan a whole day's worth of stuff and expect us to get it done in two hours but not even look at the clock to see if we're really accomplishing that. Or do anything in a rush. Just. Sigh. It's hard for me to understand it when some people are oblivious to time.
> 
> If it helps, I can't understand Ne, Fi, Te, or Si. So you've got me there where I might have you at Ni.


Descriptions like this confuse me, because I just sit here thinking, "But isn't this common sense...?" I mean, don't most people have this sense of time?


----------



## Dangerose

(I'm so focused on time though, it's not even funny)
So's my ESTJ brother in fact) One of my favorite moments ever was listening to him talk to my father (I'm starting to think ESFP?) about his homework schedule. 

Brother (in the most diplomatic of all tones; 'here's a fun idea I had,' although he's been pushing for this for years): I was thinking we could try that thing where I start my homework at a certain time each day and devote that hour to homework. 
Father (dismissively) : Oh, no, that wouldn't work.

Which, my mother and I were in the other room and we couldn't stop laughing because the _ only reason_ that wouldn't work is that my father would forget about it and drag my brother into doing something else, or else interrupt him at frequent intervals.

My dad's almost definitely a Se-dom, and he has literally no concept of time at all. He does not understand travel time, for instance. The concert's at 7? He'll leave at 7. It's infuriating.

I have noticed that time goes fairly slowly for me. Looking back, I'll think something was weeks ago when it was actually days? I doubt it's cognitive function related necessarily though.

Anyways, I don't think all Si-users are necessarily bad with time? Though maybe it's my Ni-PoLR that makes time an extreme source of stress for me.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> You mean to say your Ne isn't like burnt popcorn? :shocked:
> 
> (Lovely post, Goose)


Thank you, oh great Shiny Queen.

Burnt popcorn? I prefer exploding, tasty popcorn.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Thank you, oh great Shiny Queen.
> 
> Burnt popcorn? I prefer exploding, tasty popcorn.


No burnt kernels? Just fully popped, tasty popcorn? Scandalous!


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> No burnt kernels? Just fully popped, tasty popcorn? Scandalous!


Ooo, scandel...my faavorite.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> (I'm so focused on time though, it's not even funny)
> So's my ESTJ brother in fact) One of my favorite moments ever was listening to him talk to my father (I'm starting to think ESFP?) about his homework schedule.
> 
> Brother (in the most diplomatic of all tones; 'here's a fun idea I had,' although he's been pushing for this for years): I was thinking we could try that thing where I start my homework at a certain time each day and devote that hour to homework.
> Father (dismissively) : Oh, no, that wouldn't work.
> 
> Which, my mother and I were in the other room and we couldn't stop laughing because the _ only reason_ that wouldn't work is that my father would forget about it and drag my brother into doing something else, or else interrupt him at frequent intervals.
> 
> My dad's almost definitely a Se-dom, and he has literally no concept of time at all. He does not understand travel time, for instance. The concert's at 7? He'll leave at 7. It's infuriating.
> 
> I have noticed that time goes fairly slowly for me. Looking back, I'll think something was weeks ago when it was actually days? I doubt it's cognitive function related necessarily though.
> 
> Anyways, I don't think all Si-users are necessarily bad with time? Though maybe it's my Ni-PoLR that makes time an extreme source of stress for me.


I think most people have a sense of time as it relates to their everyday life (ex. making it to an appointment on time), but not many people have a sense of time that... I just had an image of Legolas... "What do your elf eyes see!"

Ah, yeah, I don't think Si users as a whole are bad with time (a lot of ISTJ descriptions describe ISTJs as punctual or managing their time well for efficiency).


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> I think most people have a sense of time as it relates to their everyday life (ex. making it to an appointment on time), but not many people have a sense of time that... I just had an image of Legolas... "What do your elf eyes see!"
> 
> Ah, yeah, I don't think Si users as a whole are bad with time (a lot of ISTJ descriptions describe ISTJs as punctual or managing their time well for efficiency).


It's true; I am no Legolas))


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I think most people have a sense of time as it relates to their everyday life (ex. making it to an appointment on time), but not many people have a sense of time that... I just had an image of Legolas... "What do your elf eyes see!"
> 
> Ah, yeah, I don't think Si users as a whole are bad with time (a lot of ISTJ descriptions describe ISTJs as punctual or managing their time well for efficiency).


The funny thing, is if I don't want to get somewhere urgently, such as school, I'll sabotage myself to make it more interesting, like going half an hour later to force my brain to find new routes. :laughing: But usually, when my family and I go out places, I'm the one sitting in the back of the car laughing while my mother goes full inferior Ne mode with locking the house up. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> The funny thing, is if I don't want to get somewhere urgently, such as school, I'll sabotage myself to make it more interesting, *like going half an hour later* to force my brain to find new routes. :laughing: But usually, when my family and I go out places, I'm the one sitting in the* back of the car laughing* while my mother goes full inferior Ne mode with locking the house up. :wink:


Ah, so you're that kind of person :tongue:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Ah, so you're that kind of person :tongue:


I believe the proper terminology would be either troll or gadfly. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Excellent suggestion.


So wooly. Now I need 50 more posts to get m avatar changed. I could change it now but I want it be celebratory. Gotta go spam in tests threads.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> The funny thing, is if I don't want to get somewhere urgently, such as school, I'll sabotage myself to make it more interesting, like going half an hour later to force my brain to find new routes.


This thing though) I'm the queen of 'accidentally' getting lost and stuff) Life is too short to use transportation efficiently)


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> This thing though) I'm the queen of 'accidentally' getting lost and stuff) Life is too short to use transportation efficiently)


Also too short to miss out on new ways of getting places, like taking one train past the stop you need to get off at, and taking another train in the opposite direction, without waiting for the later train which gets you there much easier. Sure, most times it fails miserably as far as getting there on time goes, but who cares about that, it's more fun! :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Also too short to miss out on new ways of getting places, like taking one train past the stop you need to get off at, and taking another train in the opposite direction, without waiting for the later train which gets you there much easier. Sure, most times it fails miserably as far as getting there on time goes, but who cares about that, it's more fun! :kitteh:


Troll... opposite direction... fun...

Maybe you're ENTP after all!


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Troll... opposite direction... fun...
> 
> Maybe you're ENTP after all!


Haha, quite possible, yes. :laughing: Though, seeing how this is a thread based on Ni, and I'm pretty much a serial derailer of threads already, might wanna move this somewhere else. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Also too short to miss out on new ways of getting places, like taking one train past the stop you need to get off at, and taking another train in the opposite direction, without waiting for the later train which gets you there much easier. Sure, most times it fails miserably as far as getting there on time goes, but who cares about that, it's more fun! :kitteh:


I did not know other people did this))


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I did not know other people did this))


We are a rare species, us train hoppers. *acts all sage but fails miserably*

Can I assume this definitely isn't Ni at work? :tongue:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> We are a rare species, us train hoppers. *acts all sage but fails miserably*
> 
> Can I assume this definitely isn't Ni at work? :tongue:


I think yeah)


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> We are a rare species, us train hoppers. *acts all sage but fails miserably*
> 
> Can I assume this definitely isn't Ni at work? :tongue:


I think yeah)


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I think yeah)


_Brilliant._


----------



## daybreak

Barakiel said:


> I kind of wanted to get information from the source, aka, Ni users like @alittlebear and @scintillating.


I saw this earlier but didn't reply right away and got lazy n forgot lol! To me, Ni has always been a sort of reductionist and deconstructive process. It sees qualities separately and can identify qualities at differing strengths, even telescoping in on some at the expense of others.

Introverted perceiving functions in general read value into things, and in the case of Intuition it looks for similarity or contrast on a sort of intrinsic level - _qualities that exist and through their perception call up likeness to the qualities of other things_. I find Si instead derives qualities primarily thru the (inter)actions of objects, where Ni derives qualities thru isolated examination of one object as compared to previous impressions.

My Ni is auxiliary besides, so I don't perceive things as they are, I perceive things with facets that glitter and link me to other images and sentiments and projections... and being that my Ni is aux to Te dom, I tend to magnify certain facets over others when I want something from them, or when they want something from me. As an ENTJ, I want to "do" things, and the act of doing and completing is what I'm driven towards, and to do that, I want to understand what I'm working with on an essential level. These are the qualities, if I present them like this, then it will present this message, u see?

And so I perceive things as having windows to be enterprised, as having potential use and direction. What can I make of this! What will shine! What can I magnify for the appreciation of others! As an ENTJ, I look at things for their futures, for their use, for the accomplishment of everyone and anyone!

Personally, I've always felt a strong draw to my Ni, while my Te is sort of middling draw yet still the dominating force of my cognition lol! So to separate the two is an interesting play. Basically, I see things as they were or as they can be, never as they are, and I do this because I want to build something of it, something that can be viewed by as many people as are willing, since I'm a people-focused person.

If u r familiar with Hunter x Hunter, here is a glimpse of my Ni superpowering my Te. You may have already read it, but read it again!! O, and ps, what is italicised above (Te making things easy) is the distilled nature of Ni, so if you need a place to start, that's the best I've got to offer!!!!

*EDIT!* And any other Ni users, pls, feel free to comment, I'd be pretty interested in comparing primary sourced notes lol!​


----------



## owlet

FearAndTrembling said:


> Ni is focus. Ne manifests itself to me as the opposite of that. Lack of focus. Ne doms are pure perceivers true and true. I said Ne is like microwave popcorn. It just keeps popping. When you think it has stopped, another goes off. And most pieces are undercooked or burnt. It is a bunch of black popcorn and kernels. lol. It is an explosion of ideas. Very easily distracted, and moved around by the object. Ni takes a singular idea and beats you over the the head with it. Projects it on everything. It has tunnel vision.
> 
> I think types interact with the environment with their first extroverted function. So INFJ and and INTJ are J, because they are extroverted judgers. You don't see Ni, you see Fe or Te. But an INFP or INTP interact with Ne and more willing to go with the environment. They are more flexible in the environment. They don't care as much about order and functionality. INFP and INTP are stubborn on the inside, flexible on the outside. INFJ and INTJ are flexible on the inside and stubborn on the outside. ENXP are just plain flexible.


Thank you for your reply. I still don't really think I agree with your definition of Ne, though. Ni and Ne are both perceiving functions and both have a focus (subjective internal or objective internal), so I can't see Ne as being purely unfocused. Yes, it doesn't filter down like Ni, but as it's usually triggered by environmental factors (something someone says, seeing a slightly unusual thing etc. - I vaguely recall the term 'novelty' was used in relation to Ne) it doesn't need the filtering as much as Ni, which has its triggers coming from within (as far as I can make out, someone correct me if you think that's wrong).

I'm also unsure about the idea of Ne's ideas coming out as 'burnt' a lot of the time. I think Ne users have a lot of very formed concepts (I thought of it as shotgun pellets which hit a number of different targets, but do so effectively, while Ni is like a sniper and hits one target very hard), but they only pursue the ones with potential (I also recall hearing 'potential' used to describe Ne) which is usually judged using their internal subjective judging function Ti or Fi (which do I value more? which is more accurate?).

I agree that you do generally see Fe and Te more than Ti and Fi. I can't remember where I read it, but there was an article on how INxJs appear rigid now and flexible later whereas INxPs appear flexible now and rigid later and that INxPs also came across as warmer externally. However, I don't know about ENxPs being purely flexible. That doesn't sound right to me. I mean, lots of ENxPs will stay open to possibility, but once their minds are made up, then they could be just as rigid as any other type.

Is my understanding correct?


----------



## Barakiel

scintillating said:


> I saw this earlier but didn't reply right away and got lazy n forgot lol! To me, Ni has always been a sort of reductionist and deconstructive process. It sees qualities separately and can identify qualities at differing strengths, even telescoping in on some at the expense of others.
> 
> Introverted perceiving functions in general read value into things, and in the case of Intuition it looks for similarity or contrast on a sort of intrinsic level - _qualities that exist and through their perception call up likeness to the qualities of other things_. I find Si instead derives qualities primarily thru the (inter)actions of objects, where Ni derives qualities thru isolated examination of one object as compared to previous impressions.
> 
> My Ni is auxiliary besides, so I don't perceive things as they are, I perceive things with facets that glitter and link me to other images and sentiments and projections... and being that my Ni is aux to Te dom, I tend to magnify certain facets over others when I want something from them, or when they want something from me. As an ENTJ, I want to "do" things, and the act of doing and completing is what I'm driven towards, and to do that, I want to understand what I'm working with on an essential level. These are the qualities, if I present them like this, then it will present this message, u see?
> 
> And so I perceive things as having windows to be enterprised, as having potential use and direction. What can I make of this! What will shine! What can I magnify for the appreciation of others! As an ENTJ, I look at things for their futures, for their use, for the accomplishment of everyone and anyone!
> 
> Personally, I've always felt a strong draw to my Ni, while my Te is sort of middling draw yet still the dominating force of my cognition lol! So to separate the two is an interesting play. Basically, I see things as they were or as they can be, never as they are, and I do this because I want to build something of it, something that can be viewed by as many people as are willing, since I'm a people-focused person.
> 
> If u r familiar with Hunter x Hunter, here is a glimpse of my Ni superpowering my Te. You may have already read it, but read it again!! O, and ps, what is italicised above (Te making things easy) is the distilled nature of Ni, so if you need a place to start, that's the best I've got to offer!!!!
> 
> *EDIT!* And any other Ni users, pls, feel free to comment, I'd be pretty interested in comparing primary sourced notes lol!​


Huh, I didn't think anyone would respond to that. :laughing:

For me, what stands out as rather intuitive, is my sense of seeing where conversations go, this leads to here, then to here and then there, so you should say this. Makes it rather easy to guide people into conversations which you want to talk about, and probably why I've derailed so many threads. :kitteh:

Still, thanks for the read, @scintillating, maybe this is why we conflict so much on typings. :tongue:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Descriptions like this confuse me, because I just sit here thinking, "But isn't this common sense...?" I mean, don't most people have this sense of time?


Yes, part of it may be me thinking my mom doesn't understand time. When obviously she does, you know? 

But it's... more things. I can get ready in ten minutes. Hair, makeup, everything. I can twist time, it feels like. But my parents don't _get_ that. "You need two hours to get ready." Okay, but I don't. "You need two hours to get ready." Okay, but...

It's miscommunication, though. Trust me, they would say the same about me misunderstanding time - partially because they don't understand my hyper awareness of time. But I do not understand theirs either. 

Or, for me, I touched on this earlier, but I understand sacrifices of time. If I look for my phone for five minutes here, it's going to mean I'm going to have to walk twice as fast between this point and this point if I want to get to class and look nice, (and if I don't care abut looking nice and getting to class today, I can dance a little longer to this song, leave in seven minutes, and make a fool of myself when arriving late... but maybe it'll be okay?) I think a lot of people do that, but I don't think they do it with the hyper awareness that I do. Which is a bit very incorrect - I don't know other's perceptions of time - and definitely influenced by my anxiety - of course I know about time because I'm anxious and always racing time - but I think there's _some_ cognitive differences there as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> The funny thing, is if I don't want to get somewhere urgently, such as school, I'll sabotage myself to make it more interesting, like going half an hour later to force my brain to find new routes. :laughing: But usually, when my family and I go out places, I'm the one sitting in the back of the car laughing while my mother goes full inferior Ne mode with locking the house up. :wink:


Oh my goodness, locks are the worst! I do it a little too with my anxiety - "are you sure you locked the door? Do you remember turning the key?" - but away from home especially... I realize that if I didn't lock my dorm door, it's okay. No one is going to steal anything. The chances of a thief coming by our room during the two hours my dorm door happens to be unlocked are pretty unlikely. 

My mom and my room mate though..? Oh no. My mom is obsessive about doors, but also things like windows. You must have your blinds closed all the way all the time or someone will see you. Okay, mom, but... What's the big deal with someone seeing me in my room? And literally no one ever comes out on the street anyway? No one is going to be watching me get dressed or anything... One because I'm not getting dressed with the window open, I close it then, and two like honestly how many people would be interested in staring at me doing my homework or something through the window? These things don't matter to my mom. It is night. The blinds must be flipped the right away or something Bad WILL happen. (Even though it won't.)

And my sweet room mate. She heard that in another dorm (across campus...) something bad happened, so she started to be more vigilant. Only, being a safe campus like we are, you know what she heard? That a boy accidentally went to the wrong dorm door and opened it, then having to emberassingly close it. She started making sure our door (which was of course already locked...) was closed whenever she got dressed or went to the bathroom or something, "because you never know, a boy could walk in accidentally at any time, and I do not want a boy to see me naked." I didn't even try to explain to her that the chances of that were extremely, ridiculously slim, and that we would handle the situation in the moment if it did arise (it's not like a boy accidentally entering would put us in mortal danger). 

They're both Si-doms. They can do things I can't, but they also do things that I would have no inclination to do.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> So wooly. Now I need 50 more posts to get m avatar changed. I could change it now but I want it be celebratory. Gotta go spam in tests threads.


Fifteen posts left. You can do it. 

I'm not even going to suggest an avatar for you, but know that I am expecting something incredible.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> It's more the fact that INTJs are usually planning 20 odd years in the future, whereas I'm more or less disillusioned and don't see the point in acting in the moment or planning ahead. Of course, that isn't Ne either, I grant you, it's just something that doesn't fit.


I find a lot of descriptions dont hold water with everyone as we're all different strains of one thing. Maybe you could make a typing thread for yourself?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Fifteen posts left. You can do it.
> 
> I'm not even going to suggest an avatar for you, but know that I am expecting something incredible.


U gon be disappointed. It's a an unknown character. Well, well-known and beloved here but not in the West.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> U gon be disappointed. It's a an unknown character. Well, well-known and beloved here but not in the West.


Hmm. I'm curious. I'll wait.


----------



## Greyhart

I can't believe I just wasted 5 hours of my life on quizzes.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I can't believe I just wasted 5 hours of my life on quizzes.


I don't know how they manage to have that affect on people. But thy do. 

I have no storage on my iPad in pictures because I've saved all my playbuzz quiz results DX


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart I give up, who is your avatar

(And congratulations, of course!)


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart I give up, who is your avatar
> 
> (And congratulations, of course!)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs

From my favorite 1971 adaptation. It's one of the my most favorite books/movies/things. Large part of my running gags and idioms come from it. I realized today that some of Gen Z might never seen the movie because TV rarely runs it now and people don't watch TV that much anyway and the book isn't even a part of school program (which is a crime). :sad:


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> The Twelve Chairs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> From my favorite 1971 adaptation. It's one of the my most favorite books/movies/things. Large part of my running gags and idioms come from it. I realized today that some of Gen Z might never seen the movie because TV rarely runs it now and people don't watch TV that much anyway and the book isn't even a part of school program (which is a crime). :sad:


I haven't seen that version, but I love the Mel Brooks one. "I WANT THOSE CHAIRS." LOL


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> I haven't seen that version, but I love the Mel Brooks one. "I WANT THOSE CHAIRS." LOL


I actually didn't know foreign adaptations existed. Nazi Gemrany one tho. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> I actually didn't know foreign adaptations existed. Nazi Gemrany one tho. :laughing:


I didn't even know there was a book... or other adaptations. I only discovered the Brooks version because it has an actor I enjoy in it. But, it's much-loved at our house. Sometimes, if anyone brings up chairs, I'll quote that particular passage and everyone will crack up. One of many films often-quoted at our house.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

laurie17 said:


> Thank you for your reply. I still don't really think I agree with your definition of Ne, though. Ni and Ne are both perceiving functions and both have a focus (subjective internal or objective internal), so I can't see Ne as being purely unfocused. Yes, it doesn't filter down like Ni, but as it's usually triggered by environmental factors (something someone says, seeing a slightly unusual thing etc. - I vaguely recall the term 'novelty' was used in relation to Ne) it doesn't need the filtering as much as Ni, which has its triggers coming from within (as far as I can make out, someone correct me if you think that's wrong).
> 
> I'm also unsure about the idea of Ne's ideas coming out as 'burnt' a lot of the time. I think Ne users have a lot of very formed concepts (I thought of it as shotgun pellets which hit a number of different targets, but do so effectively, while Ni is like a sniper and hits one target very hard), but they only pursue the ones with potential (I also recall hearing 'potential' used to describe Ne) which is usually judged using their internal subjective judging function Ti or Fi (which do I value more? which is more accurate?).
> 
> I agree that you do generally see Fe and Te more than Ti and Fi. I can't remember where I read it, but there was an article on how INxJs appear rigid now and flexible later whereas INxPs appear flexible now and rigid later and that INxPs also came across as warmer externally. However, I don't know about ENxPs being purely flexible. That doesn't sound right to me. I mean, lots of ENxPs will stay open to possibility, but once their minds are made up, then they could be just as rigid as any other type.
> 
> Is my understanding correct?


Of course Ne can have very fleshed out ideas. And ExFP are rigid as fuck. But I was lost in the poetry and symmetry of my system. I didn't want to break the symmetry, it would be a crime. 

This gives us a good analogy though. Ni is symmetry seeking. Ne is symmetry breaking. The earliest time in the universe was so symmetrical. Such precision. It was so ordered. So lawful. So unallowing. So much potential. Such little mess. 

And then symmetries broke. When a symmetry breaks, something that was not previously allowed, is now possible. We needed the universe to lighten up in a sense. Allow more things. And it continued to diversify to make creatures like us. But Ni knows the source is that singularity. Everything can be reduced to that. Ni are unifiers. Ne are diversifiers. 

"The Western approach to reality is mostly through theory, and theory begins by denying reality — to talk about reality, to go around reality, to catch anything that attracts our sense-intellect and abstract it away from reality itself. Thus philosophy begins by saying that the outside world is not a basic fact, that its existence can be doubted and that every proposition in which the reality of the outside world is affirmed is not an evident proposition but one that needs to be divided, dissected and analyzed. It is to stand consciously aside and try to square a circle."

I'll say it again. People are too hung up on theory. They take this stuff too academically. Bang Jung like the Bible. This site is actually the best place to learn about types. Everyday we see people with their types tattooed on them interact. It is a goldmine. But people would rather argue theory, when reality is right in front of them. 

I know Jung's work inside and out. I don't even remember his Ne description, but it is irrelevant to me now. As is every other. Jung also warned about theory. The textbook statistical mean that describes everybody and nobody. 

You want to see Ne? Check out the spam/gossip/venting subforums here. Observe them over a period of time. You will get a feel for Ne that isn't in any description. That place is Ne central. It is a bunch of weird ideas and wordplay. Stretching out ideas. I said Ne sees things like silly putty, it just stretches an idea or situation way it can be stretched. And often sees the ridiculousness in things. That is why it is associated with comedy. I also think it is associated with mimicry. Ne is the mimic function. They are great mimics. 

Ne in Jung and descriptions is theory, Ne in the spam/gossip/venting forum is reality. 

And what they are doing with with all this wordplay and craziness, is breaking symmetries. Somebody will say something, somebody will break it, and then somebody will break that, etc. There is no order or structure. You will find very little Ni in there. Ni doesn't have that patience.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> I didn't even know there was a book... or other adaptations. I only discovered the Brooks version because it has an actor I enjoy in it. But, it's much-loved at our house. Sometimes, if anyone brings up chairs, I'll quote that particular passage and everyone will crack up. One of many films often-quoted at our house.


It's extremely quoted here in general. Not just in my family but in a culture many passages became idioms.

P.S. I'm curious how'd you type Ostap in your movie version? In the book he is hardcore ENTJ imo but other versions vary. The one that is my favorite and on my avatar has to be Se dom.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

was just inspired to go into the Spam forum. My goodness. I had confidence I could trace what was going on, but I failed. 

I feel that to some extent we do the same when we get off-topic (us daring and bold What's my personality type? Forum users), but... not to that extent. They speak another language. One that hopefully they understand, but right now I sure don't. 

It reminds me of the forum we had on the young adult forum I used to go onto. We had an off topic area. Try as I might, I couldn't survive there - I was always too serious. I could get off topic with my friends, but... Not like that. I don't quite know the difference, and I feel I _could_ go spammy if I wanted to and if I knew the people... but even setting foot in the General Chat area here made me feel uncomfortable. I'm not punny enough, and besides, no clue how I would start to assert my presence there at all. No purpose it seems but Fun, and I fail to achieve that as a purpose in general.

*on the Internet. Fun happens in theme parks. Fun happens with people. Fun happens on picnics, when at historical sites, when in class, when laughing, when at a movie... but fun is hard for me when like the ONLY thing is fun


----------



## Greyhart

@laurie17 @FearAndTrembling


> Ne manifests itself to me as the opposite of that. Lack of focus. Ne doms are pure perceivers true and true. I said Ne is like microwave popcorn. It just keeps popping. When you think it has stopped, another goes off. And most pieces are undercooked or burnt. It is a bunch of black popcorn and kernels. lol. It is an explosion of ideas. Very easily distracted, and moved around by the object.


I actually agree with this with all the burnt pop corn metaphors. That's for Ne doms. Other Ne-s put time and effort. I've ideas and theories that I've built over a time and they are more or less presentable but still tend to lack precise details. Day-by-day life on the other hand is all about getting ideas, playing with them and letting them go.



> I'll say it again. People are too hung up on theory. They take this stuff too academically. Bang Jung like the Bible. This site is actually the best place to learn about types. Everyday we see people with their types tattooed on them interact. It is a goldmine. But people would rather argue theory, when reality is right in front of them.


Also true.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> was just inspired to go into the Spam forum. My goodness. I had confidence I could trace what was going on, but I failed.
> 
> I feel that to some extent we do the same when we get off-topic (us daring and bold What's my personality type? Forum users), but... not to that extent. They speak another language. One that hopefully they understand, but right now I sure don't.
> 
> It reminds me of the forum we had on the young adult forum I used to go onto. We had an off topic area. Try as I might, I couldn't survive there - I was always too serious. I could get off topic with my friends, but... Not like that. I don't quite know the difference, and I feel I _could_ go spammy if I wanted to and if I knew the people... but even setting foot in the General Chat area here made me feel uncomfortable. I'm not punny enough, and besides, no clue how I would start to assert my presence there at all. No purpose it seems but Fun, and I fail to achieve that as a purpose in general.
> 
> *on the Internet. Fun happens in theme parks. Fun happens with people. Fun happens on picnics, when at historical sites, when in class, when laughing, when at a movie... but fun is hard for me when like the ONLY thing is fun


I just went there looks like my tumblr dashboard.


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## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I just went there looks like my tumblr dashboard.


Oh my gosh. _Tumblr. _ I don't even use my dashboard anymore. I think I'm following... what... Three thousand blogs, at least? I just keep seeing all these wonderful people with their sweet blogs and I keep adding and adding them? And they're all so nice and kind, I hate unfollowing? So now I just have a bunch of random stuff on my Dash, very little which I find interesting. Honestly I need to abandon this blog and start a new one, but I'm trying to figure out what blog type would be best for me.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I find a lot of descriptions dont hold water with everyone as we're all different strains of one thing. Maybe you could make a typing thread for yourself?


Oh, I have. I think another would be pushing the bounds of what's reasonable and what isn't, y'know? :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh. _Tumblr. _ I don't even use my dashboard anymore. I think I'm following... what... Three thousand blogs, at least? I just keep seeing all these wonderful people with their sweet blogs and I keep adding and adding them? And they're all so nice and kind, I hate unfollowing? So now I just have a bunch of random stuff on my Dash, very little which I find interesting. Honestly I need to abandon this blog and start a new one, but I'm trying to figure out what blog type would be best for me.


I've tumblr OCD. I have to check all updates for the week. What if I miss on something really interesting?! OH NO. So I keep my blog roll short. Well maybe like 40 blogs after over 4 years.


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> P.S. I'm curious how'd you type Ostap in your movie version? In the book he is hardcore ENTJ imo but other versions vary. The one that is my favorite and on my avatar has to be Se dom.


Hmm, I don't know. I haven't seen it in awhile. Have to re-watch and think about it. Heh.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Greyhart said:


> @_laurie17_ @_FearAndTrembling_
> 
> I actually agree with this with all the burnt pop corn metaphors. That's for Ne doms. Other Ne-s put time and effort. I've ideas and theories that I've built over a time and they are more or less presentable but still tend to lack precise details. Day-by-day life on the other hand is all about getting ideas, playing with them and letting them go.
> 
> 
> 
> Also true.


Thank you. 

And I agree with difference in doms. Like Arkigos and many INTP, these guys have extremely thorough and consistent systems. They have intellectualized this stuff to the bone. I have no interest in that. It takes the magic and fun out of it. I don't have any system in my head. It is like a fog. They see it more as science, I see it as art. It is interpretation. It is a poem that continually unfolds. It gives a rhythm to the world. That is what I like about it. Nobody is right. And there are no "facts".


----------



## Greyhart

FearAndTrembling said:


> Thank you.
> 
> And I agree with difference in doms. Like Arkigos and many INTP, these guys have extremely thorough and consistent systems. They have intellectualized this stuff to the bone. I have no interest in that. It takes the magic and fun out of it. I don't have any system in my head. It is like a fog. They see it more as science, I see it as art. It is interpretation. It is a poem that continually unfolds. It gives a rhythm to the world. That is what I like about it. Nobody is right. And there are no "facts".


Your existence tantalizes me. IRL where do I dig for INFJ friend? Libraries and bookstores don't work anymore - everyone is in dark rooms behind their computers.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Greyhart said:


> Your existence tantalizes me. IRL where do I dig for INFJ friend? Libraries and bookstores don't work anymore - everyone is in dark rooms behind their computers.


I was actually at a bar last week when the popcorn metaphor came to me. Cinco De Mayo. I just went out for like 2 drinks. Maybe there an hour. About 5 minutes in, this guy walks up and just starts unloading Ne on me. Subjects I care nothing about. He was acting like it was a two way conversation. It was him just bouncing ideas off of me. And I am actually polite, and use Fe. So I had to take it. The guy totally smothered me. I said I was covered in Ne. I felt like this:










I think that is why Ni and Ne are supposed to be a good match. Because they are both out of touch, but in opposite ways. Ni is so focused and single minded. It needs Ne to loosen it up and show it different perspectives. And Ni helps Ne get a little focus. 

I have an ENTP father who always poked fun at my seriousness. He is quite funny.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> *I think that is why Ni and Ne are supposed to be a good match.* Because they are both out of touch, but in opposite ways. Ni is so focused and single minded. It needs Ne to loosen it up and show it different perspectives. And Ni helps Ne get a little focus.
> 
> I have an ENTP father who always poked fun at my seriousness. He is quite funny.


This strikes fear in my heart.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> This strikes fear in my heart.


It makes me happy. I love Ne folk. Of course, I love Se too... and Ni... and of course Si... but Ne is lovely, I think. Fun to have around, and thought-provoking as well.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> It makes me happy. I love Ne folk. Of course, I love Se too... and Ni... and of course Si... but Ne is lovely, I think. Fun to have around, and thought-provoking as well.


Not if it's the terribly indecisive kind of Ne, where the person refuses to commit to anything or anyone, even their best friend (and I'm talking about a person in their adulthood here).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Not if it's the terribly indecisive kind of Ne, where the person refuses to commit to anything or anyone, even their best friend (and I'm talking about a person in their adulthood here).


That's true, I suppose... I'm trying to think of an Ne-dom I know for sure, and it's hard to find a comparison. There's a boy I'm sure is ENFP - we've been friends since childhood and he is classically ENFP, although of course he thinks he's an INxJ (he put INFJ on his Tumblr and I winced, then he made a post going "oops I messed up I'm actually INTJ in every way" and I just went "ohhh my goodness no darling") - and he's sort of a jerk, but not because his ideas. I mean... Like we would sit in class and I would just... well,the lecture gives you all the information. You just have to absorb it all, and prime your mind to fully understand the material. This kid would listen and do who knows what in his head, then raise his hand and go "OH, so it's like this which is this and this, so basically it's like an elephant eating a whale, but the whale is winning, and that's why Genghis Khan won." And everyone would laugh. And it would stick. And we would all think of an elephant eating a whale when we studied that chapter for exams. 

But on the inside...I went... "What? That doesn't even make sense. An elephant wouldn't eat a whale. And it's pretty straightforward, why do you need such an absurd metaphor to understand it?" I mean I raised my hand and said, "Oh, so it's like football," when we studied trench warfare... but only because that's a completely fitting and somewhat sadly ironic way of looking at trench warfare. It is like football. Land acquisition game. Of course that seemed like it came out of nowhere as well, but it made perfect sense to me, and to this day I can understand both trench warfare and football better because I realized the likeness.

And I mean, I guess the ENFP I know was indecisive. In relationships especially. His Tumblr is filled with Fi, but it's also... well, of course personal, but one day he will say he really loved this relationship and it helped him so much and he will compliment his current boyfriend. The next day he will be making passive aggressive remarks about his boyfriend. And his best friends. And everyone. And one day Holly and Polly will be the bomb dot com for him, the next day they're lying fake freaks who no one likes, gosh they're so manipulative. I figured that was just immaturity but maybe it could be Ne too. 

Same with another ENFP girl I know. With relationships at least. She'll be passive aggressive about how much she hates a person and then call them "DARLING," her "favorite person in the world" the next day. But again, not sure if that's Ne or her just being immature. We share an xNTP friend and the xNTP just can't stand her and her immaturity (even though the ENFP is older than the xNTP, ha).


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That's true, I suppose... I'm trying to think of an Ne-dom I know for sure, and it's hard to find a comparison. There's a boy I'm sure is ENFP - we've been friends since childhood and he is classically ENFP, although of course he thinks he's an INxJ (he put INFJ on his Tumblr and I winced, then he made a post going "oops I messed up I'm actually INTJ in every way" and I just went "ohhh my goodness no darling") - and he's sort of a jerk, but not because his ideas. I mean... Like we would sit in class and I would just... well,the lecture gives you all the information. You just have to absorb it all, and prime your mind to fully understand the material. This kid would listen and do who knows what in his head, then raise his hand and go "OH, so it's like this which is this and this, so basically it's like an elephant eating a whale, but the whale is winning, and that's why Genghis Khan won." And everyone would laugh. And it would stick. And we would all think of an elephant eating a whale when we studied that chapter for exams.
> 
> But on the inside...I went... "What? That doesn't even make sense. An elephant wouldn't eat a whale. And it's pretty straightforward, why do you need such an absurd metaphor to understand it?" I mean I raised my hand and said, "Oh, so it's like football," when we studied trench warfare... but only because that's a completely fitting and somewhat sadly ironic way of looking at trench warfare. It is like football. Land acquisition game. Of course that seemed like it came out of nowhere as well, but it made perfect sense to me, and to this day I can understand both trench warfare and football better because I realized the likeness.


My misfortune was an indecisive ENTP who didn't understand or care about feelings, so :|


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> My misfortune was an indecisive ENTP who didn't understand or care about feelings, so :|


I'm sorry. It's always unfortunate when someone's faults end up badly hurting another person.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I'm sorry. It's always unfortunate when someone's faults end up badly hurting another person.


Oh, I've dealt with worse lol

I usually cut relationships, platonic or otherwise, when I don't see any long-term growth or potential.


----------



## Greyhart

FearAndTrembling said:


> I was actually at a bar last week when the popcorn metaphor came to me. Cinco De Mayo. I just went out for like 2 drinks. Maybe there an hour. About 5 minutes in, this guy walks up and just starts unloading Ne on me. Subjects I care nothing about. He was acting like it was a two way conversation. It was him just bouncing ideas off of me. And I am actually polite, and use Fe. So I had to take it. The guy totally smothered me. I said I was covered in Ne. I felt like this:


Pretty sure this is how all J types feel. :laughing: If I don't hold back with my ISFJ friend under 3 minutes she looks like she wants to hide under the bed or just assume fetal position right there on the floor. ENTJ cousin just kind of zones out 90% of what I say. I'm not totally obvious, I notice things.








With SPs it feels like they sort of take it all in but in the same get rid of/ignore onion layers made out of not really related stuff that make it all fun.

What I took out of that story is that if I come across an INFJ in a natural habitat my ENTP instincts will kick in and I'll automatically gravitate to them. Got it.



shinynotshiny said:


> This strikes fear in my heart.


You just wait for your ENFP manic pixie... person. :laughing:



shinynotshiny said:


> Not if it's the terribly indecisive kind of Ne, where the person refuses to commit to anything or anyone, even their best friend (and I'm talking about a person in their adulthood here).


I'd think it's more off... immature Feeling function? Or maybe bad Si = fear of staying the same. I consider loyalty to be one of my main values. I actually found that I have some values... Well, I'm kind of stuck on deciding what else I value. Except for loyalty.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh, I've dealt with worse lol
> 
> I usually cut relationships, platonic or otherwise, when I don't see any long-term growth or potential.


I just collect them. I'm terrible at keeping up with relationships because I am socially anxious and fear rejection (I can't call them, they'll probably show disgust for me!), but I will treat anyone I ever see with extreme kindness if I knew them. (Unless like I know them from my high school and WE BOTH KNOW WE KNOW EACH OTHER but they are pointedly ignoring me, then I'm like "lol who needs you jerk face" and I go out of my way to pointedly ignore them. I can be like a doggy in this way.) 

(But it also happens all the time, where I'll be at the store or working at the library or whatever and some lady who knows my mom will come up and say "I haven't seen you in forever! How have you been? You've gotten so big!" and I'll go "Yes mama, how are you? It's been so long! Thank you, I hope you're doing well!" even though on the inside I'm going "oh my goodness, who are you? I hope they can't tell I don't remember who they are at all!" It's especially interesting when they're so happy to see me that they bing their husband and kids over to meet me. Or meet me again. And I'm still there, wondering where the heck I know them from!)


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> You just wait for your ENFP manic pixie... person. :laughing:


They're in hiding :th_Jttesur:



Greyhart said:


> I'd think it's more off... immature Feeling function? Or maybe bad Si = fear of staying the same...


No, you're right. This person was like a shell full of ideas.



Greyhart said:


> I consider loyalty to be one of my main values. I actually found that I have some values... Well, I'm kind of stuck on deciding what else I value. Except for loyalty


:laughing:


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I just collect them. I'm terrible at keeping up with relationships because I am socially anxious and fear rejection (I can't call them, they'll probably show disgust for me!), but *I will treat anyone I ever see with extreme kindness if I knew them.* (Unless like I know them from my high school and WE BOTH KNOW WE KNOW EACH OTHER but they are pointedly ignoring me, then I'm like "lol who needs you jerk face" and I go out of my way to pointedly ignore them. I can be like a doggy in this way.)
> 
> (But it also happens all the time, where I'll be at the store or working at the library or whatever and some lady who knows my mom will come up and say "I haven't seen you in forever! How have you been? You've gotten so big!" and I'll go "Yes mama, how are you? It's been so long! Thank you, I hope you're doing well!" even though on the inside I'm going "oh my goodness, who are you? I hope they can't tell I don't remember who they are at all!" It's especially interesting when they're so happy to see me that they bing their husband and kids over to meet me. Or meet me again. And I'm still there, wondering where the heck I know them from!)


I don't go out of my way to hurt people I don't like, y'know 

I understand the anxiety (and, in my case, extreme introversion), which is why the assertive or extroverted types tend to move things along.


----------



## owlet

As this is a very long reply, I'll put my response in bold after each paragraph.


FearAndTrembling said:


> Of course Ne can have very fleshed out ideas. And ExFP are rigid as fuck. But I was lost in the poetry and symmetry of my system. I didn't want to break the symmetry, it would be a crime.
> *I can understand what you mean, it just made it difficult to follow, that's all. I don't think ENxPs are horrendously rigid - that kind of thing does depend on the individual.*
> 
> This gives us a good analogy though. Ni is symmetry seeking. Ne is symmetry breaking. The earliest time in the universe was so symmetrical. Such precision. It was so ordered. So lawful. So unallowing. So much potential. Such little mess.
> *Hm, but wasn't the supposed earliest time in the universe the Big Bang? Or do you mean before that? I don't think humans know enough about it to really assume it was any kind of way. I kind of get where you're going with it, though.*
> 
> And then symmetries broke. When a symmetry breaks, something that was not previously allowed, is now possible. We needed the universe to lighten up in a sense. Allow more things. And it continued to diversify to make creatures like us. But Ni knows the source is that singularity. Everything can be reduced to that. Ni are unifiers. Ne are diversifiers.
> *This is difficult for me to follow. Would you mind explaining this further? With the last part, about Ni as unifiers vs Ne as diversifiers, how would that work with the idea of Ne linking seemingly unrelated ideas together?*
> 
> "The Western approach to reality is mostly through theory, and theory begins by denying reality — to talk about reality, to go around reality, to catch anything that attracts our sense-intellect and abstract it away from reality itself. Thus philosophy begins by saying that the outside world is not a basic fact, that its existence can be doubted and that every proposition in which the reality of the outside world is affirmed is not an evident proposition but one that needs to be divided, dissected and analyzed. It is to stand consciously aside and try to square a circle."
> 
> I'll say it again. People are too hung up on theory. They take this stuff too academically. Bang Jung like the Bible. This site is actually the best place to learn about types. Everyday we see people with their types tattooed on them interact. It is a goldmine. But people would rather argue theory, when reality is right in front of them.
> *I personally think it's best to combine the two - without theory there's no 'objective' (because it's not really that objective) basis for observation but with too much theory it's as you said, people become distanced from how it would manifest in reality. Another issue is that many people mistype themselves due to bias, lack of self-awareness/truth, not really deeply considering it etc., so observing these people with no theoretical filter makes life really difficult. I could end up with a completely skewed and contradictory view of Ne.*
> 
> I know Jung's work inside and out. I don't even remember his Ne description, but it is irrelevant to me now. As is every other. Jung also warned about theory. The textbook statistical mean that describes everybody and nobody.
> 
> You want to see Ne? Check out the spam/gossip/venting subforums here. Observe them over a period of time. You will get a feel for Ne that isn't in any description. That place is Ne central. It is a bunch of weird ideas and wordplay. Stretching out ideas. I said Ne sees things like silly putty, it just stretches an idea or situation way it can be stretched. And often sees the ridiculousness in things. That is why it is associated with comedy. I also think it is associated with mimicry. Ne is the mimic function. They are great mimics.
> *Wouldn't it be better to go on the xNxP boards? I'm sure Se-Ni users also go on the spam boards, so... I can get what you're saying, but people go to those boards to mess around, so it only gives one side of Ne (the sillier side).
> What do you mean by mimic?*
> 
> Ne in Jung and descriptions is theory, Ne in the spam/gossip/venting forum is reality.
> 
> And what they are doing with with all this wordplay and craziness, is breaking symmetries. Somebody will say something, somebody will break it, and then somebody will break that, etc. There is no order or structure. You will find very little Ni in there. Ni doesn't have that patience.


I just asked a few questions for clarification on certain points.



Greyhart said:


> @_laurie17_ @_FearAndTrembling_
> 
> I actually agree with this with all the burnt pop corn metaphors. That's for Ne doms. Other Ne-s put time and effort. I've ideas and theories that I've built over a time and they are more or less presentable but still tend to lack precise details. Day-by-day life on the other hand is all about getting ideas, playing with them and letting them go.
> 
> Also true.


Are they really like burnt popcorn - completely inedible, unpalatable and useless? Don't most ideas have some kind of value, even if it's just enjoyment?


----------



## FearAndTrembling

shinynotshiny said:


> Not if it's the terribly indecisive kind of Ne, where the person refuses to commit to anything or anyone, even their best friend (and I'm talking about a person in their adulthood here).


That is also a problem I sometimes have with Ne, and extroverts in general. They can make you feel unimportant by spreading themselves around so thin. They will talk to anybody about anything. And Ni can be the opposite of that. Obsessive smothering. I want focus and progress as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I can't imagine picking values? I just value love and everything that comes with it. (Which, according to Catholic tradition... is every virtuous quality, honesty, loyalty, courage, all of it wrapped in one, haha). I made a post about my ideal match or something in the ENFJ forum. Lots of things on it, but one was, "He has to be kind and be kind to others, never intentionally harmful to another innocent person." And this person responds, "I agree with this, but not with the kindness part. What? He can be nice around me to others and not be mean, but whatever, he can be mean whenever he's not around me." And (after I thought "is something wrong with me for wanting someone to be genuinely kind...?" I responded that "No. Kindness is the most important thing, actually. I don't want to date someone who does more harm to this world than good." It's amazing to me that anyone could want otherwise. I mean, I'm okay with my friends being unkind - sometimes I'm brought to their friendship because they are so outwardly unkind, and it know they got a little core of goodness that's just buried a little deeper than most - but... I couldn't date an unkind person. I don't want to spend a relationship fixing a jerk. I want a mutual relationship. When he's got a heart that needs several rounds of dusting, a mutual relationship could never happen for me.

That got a bit deep and personal. Basically what I'm trying to say is that kindness is immensely important to me, and I am honestly blown away when I find anyone who doesn't value kindness. (Of course people don't value it outright and identify it as a value, and I understand that, but when they don't act out kindness and have no care about how their actions impact others... That's when my sad, sad awe goes off. I just cannot fathom it.)


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> This kid would listen and do who knows what in his head, then raise his hand and go "OH, so it's like this which is this and this, so basically it's like an elephant eating a whale, but the whale is winning, and that's why Genghis Khan won." And everyone would laugh. And it would stick. And we would all think of an elephant eating a whale when we studied that chapter for exams.


Huh, you just described a biggest clown of our class. I've been trying to dig my school-related memories for NPs. I think he was ENFP too. I fought with that ENFP. He also pulled my literal pigtails. I knew that it was sign of some level of interest back then but DON'T FRAKING TOUCH MY HAIR. Also I think I was a friend with INTP guy in mid school, at least he is the only I remember who could go on Ne torrent like I did but also thought in similar way as I do (as opposed to INFP friend) and the only person I ever knew who also genuinely liked sudoku.

I used to drive my teachers crazy by asking for additional details. Like we are being taught that something is so and so but I need to know "why" behind it. I stopped doing that around mid school after being reprimanded for asking questions on history and teacher ending up calling my parents because "I disturbed the class". Blah. God, I hate school system.



> And I mean, I guess the ENFP I know was indecisive. In relationships especially. His Tumblr is filled with Fi, but it's also... well, of course personal, but one day he will say he really loved this relationship and it helped him so much and he will compliment his current boyfriend. The next day he will be making passive aggressive remarks about his boyfriend. And his best friends. And everyone. And one day Holly and Polly will be the bomb dot com for him, the next day they're lying fake freaks who no one likes, gosh they're so manipulative. I figured that was just immaturity but maybe it could be Ne too.


Yikes. I've read that about FPs and the rapidly changing disposition towards other things but wasn't sure if it could be as extreme.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> That is also a problem I sometimes have with Ne, and extroverts in general. They can make you feel unimportant by spreading themselves around so thin. They will talk to anybody about anything. And Ni can be the opposite of that. Obsessive smothering. *I want focus and progress as well*.


Absolutely. I've always felt too rigid when it comes to this because most people I've known don't share my intense focus. I've tried going the other way in the past despite my better judgment (maybe I'm just reading too much into it and seeing something that isn't there, right?)

Wrong. Always a disaster.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Huh, you just described a biggest clown of our class. I've been trying to dig my school-related memories for NPs. I think he was ENFP too. I fought with that ENFP. He also pulled my literal pigtails. I knew that it was sign of some level of interest back then but DON'T FRAKING TOUCH MY HAIR. Also I think I was a friend with INTP guy in mid school, at least he is the only I remember who could go on Ne torrent like I did but also thought in similar way as I do (as opposed to INFP friend) and the only person I ever knew who also genuinely liked sudoku.
> 
> I used to drive my teachers crazy by asking for additional details. Like we are being taught that something is so and so but I need to know "why" behind it. I stopped doing that around mid school after being reprimanded for asking questions on history and teacher ending up calling my parents because "I disturbed the class". Blah. God, I hate school system.
> 
> 
> Yikes. I've read that about FPs and the rapidly changing disposition towards other things but wasn't sure if it could be as extreme.


Ah. I asked questions during lectures in middle school, but in high school I started just coming after class and stealing my teacher's attention for hours. I started to get it that not everyone cared about the answers to my questions - the class was boring to them, they just wanted to make it through the slideshow - so I stopped asking unless I couldn't stand not to ask or if I saw other kids were confused, and I thought my prompting question would be helpful. After school, though... Tons of questions. I would write my questions down during lecture and just fire them off. (It was lovely, though. I was really able to secure my knowledge when I could approach my teachers and ask them for information one-on-one. And most the time it flattered them. Small symbiotic relationship.)


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I can't imagine picking values? I just value love and everything that comes with it. (Which, according to Catholic tradition... is every virtuous quality, honesty, loyalty, courage, all of it wrapped in one, haha). I made a post about my ideal match or something in the ENFJ forum. Lots of things on it, but one was, "He has to be kind and be kind to others, never intentionally harmful to another innocent person." And this person responds, "I agree with this, but not with the kindness part. What? He can be nice around me to others and not be mean, but whatever, he can be mean whenever he's not around me." And (after I thought "is something wrong with me for wanting someone to be genuinely kind...?" I responded that "No. Kindness is the most important thing, actually. I don't want to date someone who does more harm to this world than good." It's amazing to me that anyone could want otherwise. I mean, I'm okay with my friends being unkind - sometimes I'm brought to their friendship because they are so outwardly unkind, and it know they got a little core of goodness that's just buried a little deeper than most - but... I couldn't date an unkind person. I don't want to spend a relationship fixing a jerk. I want a mutual relationship. When he's got a heart that needs several rounds of dusting, a mutual relationship could never happen for me.


I need a situation to say what I feel about it. Those questionnaires have "value" question in them and each time I read one I get stressed over not being able to clearly point out what I value. I start thinking "Am I that unethical and soulless?". :shocked: So I've being trying to pin-point mine. Managed one.

For kindness. I do not like people that are kind only towards few people and jerks towards others. From my point of view if you are nice to me but an a-hole towards everyone else how can I trust you? Will I end up being on the bad end of your attitude too? Am I being manipulated? Lulled into false sense of security?



alittlebear said:


> Ah. I asked questions during lectures in middle school, but in high school I started just coming after class and stealing my teacher's attention for hours. I started to get it that not everyone cared about the answers to my questions - the class was boring to them, they just wanted to make it through the slideshow - so I stopped asking unless I couldn't stand not to ask or if I saw other kids were confused, and I thought my prompting question would be helpful. After school, though... Tons of questions. I would write my questions down during lecture and just fire them off. (It was lovely, though. I was really able to secure my knowledge when I could approach my teachers and ask them for information one-on-one. And most the time it flattered them. Small symbiotic relationship.)


Sounds great but didn't work like that in school. Teachers always tired and in a hurry. I feel bad for them looking back. Still doesn't change the fact that it sucked.



> (Unless like I know them from my high school and WE BOTH KNOW WE KNOW EACH OTHER but they are pointedly ignoring me, then I'm like "lol who needs you jerk face" and I go out of my way to pointedly ignore them.


That's quintessential Fe attitude. "Oh you don't like me? Well, I don't like you too!". Alternatively "This person likes me for some reason, I think I like them back too?.. dotdot"


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't go out of my way to hurt people I don't like, y'know
> 
> I understand the anxiety (and, in my case, extreme introversion), which is why the assertive or extroverted types tend to move things along.


Oh, yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't treat them with kindness. Maybe I should explain that I treat everyone like a best friend. It's not that I don't know distance... It's that I can't be... how do you say it? Detached, perhaps? Everyone is a lovely person, and even if I don't know them I want to well... It doesn't make sense. But I can't not be friendly with people. Hold open doors, smile, act graciously... I can't stop. (And this usually extends even more so to the friends I haven't seen in years, including the ones I was hoping to cut out of my life.) 

I'm getting better about treating everyone like a friend... since that is a bit socially inappropriate, and people stop talking you seriously. I try to act "cool," collected, not smile at every person I see in the hallways. But it's still hard not to be super warm and smiley towards the college student who takes my ChikFilA order. (And it's kind of nice - the ChikFilA workers all know me, I'm like a legend LOL)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh, yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't treat them with kindness. Maybe I should explain that I treat everyone like a best friend. It's not that I don't know distance... It's that I can't be... how do you say it? Detached, perhaps? Everyone is a lovely person, and even if I don't know them I want to well... It doesn't make sense. But I can't not be friendly with people. Hold open doors, smile, act graciously... I can't stop. (And this usually extends even more so to the friends I haven't seen in years, including the ones I was hoping to cut out of my life.)
> 
> I'm getting better about treating everyone like a friend... since that is a bit socially inappropriate, and people stop talking you seriously. I try to act "cool," collected, not smile at every person I see in the hallways. But it's still hard not to be super warm and smiley towards the college student who takes my ChikFilA order. (And it's kind of nice - the ChikFilA workers all know me, I'm like a legend LOL)


I guess that falls under "politeness" for me


----------



## FearAndTrembling

shinynotshiny said:


> Absolutely. I've always felt too rigid when it comes to this because most people I've known don't share my intense focus. I've tried going the other way in the past despite my better judgment (maybe I'm just reading too much into it and seeing something that isn't there, right?)
> 
> Wrong. Always a disaster.


I think Ni and Ni may even be a worse match though. It is an amazing connection at first. Because you find somebody who values what you do. Focus. Progress. Intensity. I have had hardass INTJ women tell me I am too intense. Ni doms are actually very rare, so to meet one of the opposite sex can be like meeting a soulmate. But it can also be like dating your sister. What are two Ni doms gonna do together? Sit home all day and talk?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart while my school was, as @Oswin sort of figured out and I guess it's true, a bit typical and non typical but dangerous in some ways with the fights and bullies and prejudice and egotism and superiority complexes and the drugs and the cops and the drama... We were also very privileged. Some schools only have two AP classes. Literally, two AP classes. I was taking five AP classes just in my senior year. The honors and regular class teachers usually got pretty irked when you tried to talk to them after class, but my AP teachers understood it was their job to listen to me. If they showed a disinterest in talking to me I usually detached and didn't come back, but my IxFJ teachers just loved to help me figure out the world 

I also have the opposite problem where I don't have my own opinions about people. If you like me, I like you. If you don't like me, I don't like you. (Or I do like you, but I can't like you because you're a jerk who doesn't like me and I have to be somewhat passive aggressive and sweet to you but make you feel guilty for hating me all the same and like at the same time give you cold eyes and make sure you know that I'm not fooled by you like everyone else.) 

I guess I'm kind of a jerk. But only because people don't like me, and as someone who likes everyone I just don't understand it when someone has unfounded negative opinions about someone. (Or anyone, but... I recognize that not everyone seeks to appreciate every person like I do.) If someone decides they're going to give you the cold shoulder just because you're too positive or you talk funny or something... I'm like lol. Passive aggressive game on.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I guess that falls under "politeness" for me


I just think what I do goes beyond politeness? I mean I'm not trying to say I'm better than you, or superior, or anything like that so please don't misinterpret me... But there's something _weird_ I do with other people where I'm too warm and encouraging and kind. It's actually a fault. I see politeness, but I go beyond politeness. It's weird and I feel I should stop it because it makes people get weirded out by me but at the same time I'm not sure if I can / should stop it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think Ni and Ni may even be a worse match though. It is an amazing connection at first. Because you find somebody who values what you do. Focus. Progress. Intensity. I have had hardass INTJ women tell me I am too intense. Ni doms are actually very rare, so to meet one of the opposite sex can be like meeting a soulmate. But it can also be like dating your sister. What are two Ni doms gonna do together? Sit home all day and talk?


I think Ni can be bad, because two Ni users may have different truths... and they'll clash when they have two opposing ideas. Because neither is going to back down, they're just going to see the other as wrong and stupid. 

I think that's what happened with me and one of my professors, at least. I'm sort of convinced he was Si/Ne because he was still forming his ideas and he was so "open to new ideas," but his ideas were outrageous and I would question almost every one. Which he hated (passive aggressively, he tried and succeeded in making the class see me as a Stupid and Rebellious Student when I was just questioning to try to see eye-to-eye with him.) But I mean, I don't want to discount him as Ni if he was Ni... His Ni was just filled with a bunch of stuff my Ni politely saw as a bunch of false clouds.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think Ni and Ni may even be a worse match though. It is an amazing connection at first. Because you find somebody who values what you do. Focus. Progress. Intensity. I have had hardass INTJ women tell me I am too intense. Ni doms are actually very rare, so to meet one of the opposite sex can be like meeting a soulmate. But it can also be like dating your sister. What are two Ni doms gonna do together? Sit home all day and talk?


I know what you mean about that intensity, although I wouldn't liken it to meeting a sibling. I think even Fi and Fi can be a problem. Meeting someone who feels like an extension of who you are is a wonderful feeling, especially if you don't relate to most people, but it isn't a smooth ride.

I've come to realize I need to find people who have depth of feeling but are also easygoing. 

Also:

"What about the future? What do you see?"
"Oh, we'll figure it out when we get there."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

The girls I think who are also Fe-doms rub me the wrong way. Usually because I'm not in their social circles. And they have more friends than I do. And they're more charismatic than me. They're the Fe-doms I dream of being, and they make me feel insecure about myself  Maybe someday I'll get to that level, though. (Minus the clique-yness.)


----------



## Greyhart

@laurie17



> Hm, but wasn't the supposed earliest time in the universe the Big Bang? Or do you mean before that? I don't think humans know enough about it to really assume it was any kind of way. I kind of get where you're going with it, though.


I'd think it was a ball of something. Ball is symmetrical.



> This is difficult for me to follow. Would you mind explaining this further? With the last part, about Ni as unifiers vs Ne as diversifiers, how would that work with the idea of Ne linking seemingly unrelated ideas together?


Going by that metaphor Ni wants to find a source, seeks original ball of something. Ne wants to continue to expand the Universe, see stars explode and galaxies collide.



> I personally think it's best to combine the two - without theory there's no 'objective' (because it's not really that objective) basis for observation but with too much theory it's as you said, people become distanced from how it would manifest in reality. Another issue is that many people mistype themselves due to bias, lack of self-awareness/truth, not really deeply considering it etc., so observing these people with no theoretical filter makes life really difficult. I could end up with a completely skewed and contradictory view of Ne.


That is true also. I however see theory only as a basis for my own system. I don't want to hold to exact interpretations provided by whatever source material it is. I do find theory to be a much needed basis. Also for mistypes, I find it a part of the fun - I myself mistyped myself as INTJ (mostly because of online tests) but after few weeks of reading INTJ forums (especially emberfly's posts) I realized there's not way I am one. So the forums are also "spot the mistype" game.



> Wouldn't it be better to go on the xNxP boards? I'm sure Se-Ni users also go on the spam boards, so... I can get what you're saying, but people go to those boards to mess around, so it only gives one side of Ne (the sillier side).


Why go on spam boars instead of NPs - there are plenty of mistypes on NP forums as well. ENTP aren't that bad on that front but still. As for why spam boards - natural habitat. People try to be more or less on topic in type sections but on spam boards it's all bets are off.



> What do you mean by mimic?


I'm curious for this myself. I'm good with picking an idea or an image and wearing it for awhile, maybe? Not sure if it's Ne or Fe. For comedy irl I tend to pick a "state" to assume - prototyped from bunch of funny people or things I've encountered and meshed together. It's not a really conscious effort, though. Since the state is kind of "removed" from me I laugh over my own jokes a lot. Sometimes more than people I try to entertain. Awkward. Sometimes after watching movie/show or reading some book I get so stuck in the idea of some character that I start kind of role-playing them without actually intending to do that. Again it seems like Fe related to me. Not sure if FPs would be into wearing someone else's identity even for a brief moment.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I also have the opposite problem where I don't have my own opinions about people. If you like me, I like you. If you don't like me, I don't like you. (Or I do like you, but I can't like you because you're a jerk who doesn't like me and I have to be somewhat passive aggressive and sweet to you but make you feel guilty for hating me all the same and like at the same time give you cold eyes and make sure you know that I'm not fooled by you like everyone else.)
> 
> I guess I'm kind of a jerk. But only because people don't like me, and as someone who likes everyone I just don't understand it when someone has unfounded negative opinions about someone. (Or anyone, but... I recognize that not everyone seeks to appreciate every person like I do.) If someone decides they're going to give you the cold shoulder just because you're too positive or you talk funny or something... I'm like lol. Passive aggressive game on.


Same. I will meet you half way but if you don't want to walk your half there's no point to this. Well, I am more people-removed than you are but if someone doesn't like me and I can't pin point the reason (I've done nothing to harm you, why are you being hostile towards me?) it bothers me and I am not sure how to react. Do I try to make them like me? Do I get hostile in return? Do I ask them what did I do to make them dislike me? Won't that make me kind of a doormat? Actually, you know what, screw you too!

... I don't like being hostile towards people, I am comedy-loving hippie deep down but once I get going there's not stopping. The hate train burns bright and will mow my enemies in rows. I tend to go full not-passive-but-aggressive. I will also almost physically unscrew necks of anyone who touches my friends of family.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Same. I will meet you half way but if you don't want to walk your half there's no point to this. Well, I am more people-removed than you are but if someone doesn't like me and I can't pin point the reason (I've done nothing to harm you, why are you being hostile towards me?) it bothers me and I am not sure how to react. Do I try to make them like me? Do I get hostile in return? Do I ask them what did I do to make them dislike me? Won't that make me kind of a doormat? Actually, you know what, screw you too!
> 
> ... I don't like being hostile towards people, I am comedy-loving hippie deep down but once I get going there's not stopping. The hate train burns bright and will mow my enemies in rows. I tend to go full not-passive-but-aggressive. I will also almost physically unscrew necks of anyone who touches my friends of family.


I'm guilty of being cold to people if I think they're too "cool". It's really silly and honestly a social anxiety thing that's gotten me in pits of isolation since I was small... but it was just so natural. If you're popular, I am unworthy of you. Socially, at least. And I'm not going to pretend I'm not under you. So I'm not going to be as open with you. (Unless like... It's situational. If you're the sweet ESFJ girl who loves Disney and is popular, yeah I'm going to open up and chat your head off because you're genuinely sweet and I know we get along. But if you're the ENFP boy I just mentioned or like any FP who is cold... I'm going to be kind, I'm going to hold open the door for you, I'm going to be respectful, but I'm not going to be as playful or goofy or approach you to talk. Because you're better than me. It's kind of sad but I don't know, it's just how I've lived most my life so far.)

I say this because you sound like a cool person I wouldn't be so friendly with, ha. It's not because I wouldn't like you, but because I would perceive you as on another invisible social level than me and I wouldn't want to cause ripples by disobeying that. 

But I completely relate with recoiling at being disliked. I go out of my way to be friendly and kind and non offensive and helpful to everyone, it blows my mind when people decide they Hate me and they're going to lie and look at me with scorn and spread rumors about me. Like, what the heck? Have some kindness in your heart.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Yes. Precisely Greyheart. Ne is an open universe. I have used that metaphor before. 

I was referring to entropy. The beginning of the universe was so ordered. It was in equilibrium. It is so ordered, we don't even understand how anything can be so ordered. I'll quote Roger Penrose:

*V/W = 10^10^123.

This now tells us how precise the Creator's aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123.

This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full, in the ordinary denary notation: it would be `1' followed by 10^123 successive `0 's! Even if we were to write a `0' on each separate proton and on each separate neutron in the entire universe-and we could throw in all the other particles as well for good measure-we should fall far short of writing down the figure needed. The precision needed to set the universe on its course is seen to be in no way inferior to all that extraordinary precision that we have already become accustomed to in the superb dynamical equations (Newton's, Maxwell's, Einstein's) which govern the behaviour of things from moment to moment. But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic?

*















Ni is on left. Ne is on right.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

tine said:


> Do you think thats all to do with Fe or that fact you dont use Ne very much? INTJs are said to usually have a fairly flat voice apparently, but I dont know if this is a Te thing?


I think it's an Fe thing, honestly. I can't really support that... I think it just is. Of courseFi can act - and it loves acting - but I think that showing outward emotions is something Fe does best. 

My drama teacher told us that "actors are the bravest people in the world," because they show their emotions. Not for me lol. When I tried method acting, it was a flop. My type of acting is going over the top. Being the expressive caricature of the emotion that they expect. It's not brave for me. It's natural. It's a way to channel my feelings and entertain people at the same time.

Oh, and you also mentioned presentations, which I didn't see. My presentation skills are fantastic. Especially when I know the audience. Some of my class projects have been legendary. I need some work on it because of my social anxiety, and because I've never been formally trained in presentation, but given that I supposedly have severe anxiety problems... My presentations are off the charts. It's kind of cool honestly.


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> I don't think that's anti Se at all. It also depends by what you class as an experience. Thinking could be an experience (experiencing your inner mentality) and that isn't associated with Se alone as a function, whereas experiencing a situation i.e. running is VERY Se.


I thought it sounded very much like meditation, and any type can do that. You clear your mind of thoughts and just exist. (I had a go at Zazen in Japan and it was very much like this once you got into it.)

I agree experience is almost anything. If we use physical experience, as in existing, that's more about meditation and oneness with your body and mind, whereas if we look at thought, probably philosophy is the closest thing to pure thought experience.


----------



## Greyhart

FearAndTrembling said:


>


She's INFJ? That's the second INFJ with ridiculously out-there wold-view I've seen. :laughing: I wouldn't be able commit to a single vision like that.

That hand-waving. Yeah, I know I do that but when talking to my ENFJ friend this sort of jerky waving is almost a signature. ESFJ mother as Fe dom waves hands too but always more... better flow and more graceful I suppose. It's kind of how I started to realize that my mother is not ENFJ - by the way of contrasting them. I've noticed that when I and my friend both talk there are wild windmills going on.

... I wonder if my face is that animated too. It probably is. Oh, self-consciousness attacks.



tine said:


> I don't think that's anti Se at all. It also depends by what you class as an experience. Thinking could be an experience (experiencing your inner mentality) and that isn't associated with Se alone as a function, whereas experiencing a situation i.e. running is VERY Se.


Hm, I think I interpreted it as you can either be into one thing or another - bypass "real" experiences for ideals or prefer to experience instead of imagining. I can do both but I need to have an idea "overlaying" physical experience I am reaching for.



alittlebear said:


> Part of me just wishes more than anything that we could truly see each other... see our hearts, know our intentions, truly understand and comprehend one another. Know when someone likes us, and when they don't. Know what someone truly wants, and how to provide that for them. I've been of the belief that if we could do this - see each other for who we are, our cores, what we need, what we like, what we think, truly, appreciate it all - we would have no hatred. Only love. Unfortunately it'll never happen. It never could. But I still dream of a world where we could achieve that, and feel frustration over how silly our misunderstandings of one another are


I've recently had an idea of super power where you see into people's minds but in a way different from telepathy. More of literal vision replacing the normal way you perceive the surrounding and others so it would eliminate any visual prejudice one could have and only see others as a visual manifestation of their... souls, perhaps is the word. It wouldn't be really telepathy more of an extreme visual empathy.



> I know the problem though, with people not feeling I like them until I approach them.


Because of past experiences I am now conscious that I will be perceived as pushy and/or annoying if I approach first so I sort of just walk around someone I want to attract trying to look like a human peacock. Not annoying show-off peacock but "I am totally very interesting, please start talking to me" kind. I don't know if that actually works like I want it too.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I think it's an Fe thing, honestly. I can't really support that... I think it just is. Of courseFi can act - and it loves acting - but I think that showing outward emotions is something Fe does best.
> 
> My drama teacher told us that "actors are the bravest people in the world," because they show their emotions. Not for me lol. When I tried method acting, it was a flop. My type of acting is going over the top. Being the expressive caricature of the emotion that they expect. It's not brave for me. It's natural. It's a way to channel my feelings and entertain people at the same time.
> 
> Oh, and you also mentioned presentations, which I didn't see. My presentation skills are fantastic. Especially when I know the audience. Some of my class projects have been legendary. I need some work on it because of my social anxiety, and because I've never been formally trained in presentation, but given that I supposedly have severe anxiety problems... My presentations are off the charts. It's kind of cool honestly.


Presentation is something that is more Fe than any Ne - you reach towards she audience. It's centered around other people, you need to rely your message. I think this is why it might be your strong point. Not mine. I tend to go off into tangents. The "mimicking" thing might be actually not just Ne but Si also - you reach for something you've encountered. Remember person's demeanor>Deliver interpretation/caricature. Curious about how SPs go around this.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> U gon be disappointed. It's a an unknown character. Well, well-known and beloved here but not in the West.


Двенадцать стульев! (12 Chairs, yeah?))


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> Двенадцать стульев! (12 Chairs, yeah?))


Money in the morning, chairs in the evening.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Greyhart said:


> Presentation is something that is more Fe than any Ne - you reach towards she audience. It's centered around other people, you need to rely your message. I think this is why it might be your strong point. Not mine. I tend to go off into tangents. The "mimicking" thing might be actually not just Ne but Si also - you reach for something you've encountered. Remember person's demeanor>Deliver interpretation/caricature. Curious about how SPs go around this.


Yeah, it requires Si too. I can't pay attention to those details.

I also said that NFJ are better at spoken word. NFP are more written word. Like Hitler said that he would adjust to his audience. You can see your audience in real time, and adjust. If you aren't getting the desired effect, you adjust until you do. You see what works. The written word is dead on arrival. Doesn't matter how brilliant it is. They have to be alive to reach people. Fe personalizes things more.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'll never understand it when those people go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, quoting movie lines. I can't remember anything perfectly like that. Not quotes, gosh. I only know one monologue by heart, even, and I've learned quite a few of them. 

That's another thing I can't get into with certain church groups. They love learning Bible verses. When I'm with them I try to learn them too, to be polite, but I'll never understand why they spend more time learning verses than they do understanding the message. Seeing love. Living love. Practicing love. Sowing love. That's what the Bible is truly about. Not learning verses. Of course learning verses helps them, so I never object... but personally, it doesn't do anything for me at all. I learn about my faith through knowing the message, seeing the message, understanding the message... not knowing verses. Honestly it's beyond me why they're so attached to scripture memory.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Money in the morning, chairs in the evening.


Yes, but money first!


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I'll never understand it when those people go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, quoting movie lines. I can't remember anything perfectly like that. Not quotes, gosh. I only know one monologue by heart, even, and I've learned quite a few of them.
> 
> That's another thing I can't get into with certain church groups. They love learning Bible verses. When I'm with them I try to learn them too, to be polite, but I'll never understand why they spend more time learning verses than they do understanding the message. Seeing love. Living love. Practicing love. Sowing love. That's what the Bible is truly about. Not learning verses. Of course learning verses helps them, so I never object... but personally, it doesn't do anything for me at all. I learn about my faith through knowing the message, seeing the message, understanding the message... not knowing verses. Honestly it's beyond me why they're so attached to scripture memory.


I have to admit this is one of my faults, I love to memorize) Not Bible verses so much (I remember them, but I couldn't tell you the chapter and verse or anything; it kinda scares me when people can do that...in a good way though), but movie quotes for instance -- my ESTJ brother too, it alarms my parents that we can both kinda remember everything said and repeat it verbatim.

I like to memorize poetry, too. I know that technically it's not important, but it feels like something people should do? and also...I just like memorizing)


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> I think it's an Fe thing, honestly. I can't really support that... I think it just is. Of courseFi can act - and it loves acting - but I think that showing outward emotions is something Fe does best.
> 
> My drama teacher told us that "actors are the bravest people in the world," because they show their emotions. Not for me lol. When I tried method acting, it was a flop. My type of acting is going over the top. Being the expressive caricature of the emotion that they expect. It's not brave for me. It's natural. It's a way to channel my feelings and entertain people at the same time.
> 
> Oh, and you also mentioned presentations, which I didn't see. My presentation skills are fantastic. Especially when I know the audience. Some of my class projects have been legendary. I need some work on it because of my social anxiety, and because I've never been formally trained in presentation, but given that I supposedly have severe anxiety problems... My presentations are off the charts. It's kind of cool honestly.


Yeah I'd agree it was an Fe thing. I have a friend who's very nervous around people but is good at showing emotion easily. For me I'm really bad at showing my feeling and they come out in a way that confuses everyone. Oddly I can relate to being decent at presentations, Im good at winging things though (I find I cant rehearse something well). I do find I need a fair amount of time to think about it and build up to it though, do you find that?



laurie17 said:


> I thought it sounded very much like meditation, and any type can do that. You clear your mind of thoughts and just exist. (I had a go at Zazen in Japan and it was very much like this once you got into it.)
> 
> I agree experience is almost anything. If we use physical experience, as in existing, that's more about meditation and oneness with your body and mind, whereas if we look at thought, probably philosophy is the closest thing to pure thought experience.


I think it does work in a similar way to meditation as that's 'just being' etc. I dont know about philosophy being a thought existence example though, it's too active.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin I wouldn't consider that a fault! It's just not something I have. As long as someone does know the meaning of the Binle and doesn't just parrot word without knowing what it means and thing the meaning to their heart, I think that having a gift for knowing Scripture is a gift. Just not one I have at all. I can't even remember the love passage from Corinthians, or the Beatitides, even though those sections are like my life verses :/ 

I wish I could know poetry. It's so sweet that you do, that you can remember that. Maybe someday, but now... I just can't. Meanings of poetry, yes, and certain poems, but... to memorize them entirely? That's so difficult for me. I mean, of course I learned my lines for drama, but it was never easy for me even then. 

Poems are actually weird because... I don't like them. I wish they'd just say what they mean. There's too many ways to interpret poetry, and it bugs me. Maybe that's not NF of me, but that's really how I feel about poetry :/ (I am trying to appreciate poetry more, though.)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Poems are actually weird because... I don't like them. *I wish they'd just say what they mean. *There's too many ways to interpret poetry, and it bugs me. Maybe that's not NF of me, but that's really how I feel about poetry :/ (I am trying to appreciate poetry more, though.)


That would make poetry so boring


----------



## FearAndTrembling

alittlebear said:


> I'll never understand it when those people go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, quoting movie lines. I can't remember anything perfectly like that. Not quotes, gosh. I only know one monologue by heart, even, and I've learned quite a few of them.
> 
> That's another thing I can't get into with certain church groups. They love learning Bible verses. When I'm with them I try to learn them too, to be polite, but I'll never understand why they spend more time learning verses than they do understanding the message. Seeing love. Living love. Practicing love. Sowing love. That's what the Bible is truly about. Not learning verses. Of course learning verses helps them, so I never object... but personally, it doesn't do anything for me at all. I learn about my faith through knowing the message, seeing the message, understanding the message... not knowing verses. Honestly it's beyond me why they're so attached to scripture memory.


That is why I like Jung so much. Where most people stop examining something, Jung is just getting started. Like Newton and the greatest minds ever tried to find the philosopher's stone. Alchemy. They treated it as a physical thing. You literally make it with like metals and stuff. Jung knew it wasn't about that. It is a metaphor for a psychological unification. 

The devil is in the details. The real truths of religion are very hard to discover and take the sharpest minds. An idea like "gays are bad", is simple and easily communicable. 

Mohammed said that there are like 7 interpretations for every verse of the Koran. The first is literal, most superficial and least holy. The 7th is known only to Allah. 

I was reading some stuff on Goethe's Faust, which Jung also talked about.

And when there was light, at the beginning it was reason. It was the awakening. It was God that gave man reason, and reason has made man more brutish than any brute. The devil mocks him for it:

The world's small god retains his old stamp yet. And is as queer as on the primal day. He had been better off,hadst Thou not some Faint gleam of heavenly light into him put; Reason he calls it, and doth yet become More brutish through it than the veriest brute.

"His life might be a bit more fun, had you not given him that spark of heaven's sun; he calls it reason and employs it, resolute to be more brutish than is any brute."

What did light do? It was good at first. I was just telling somebody it was ego creation. lol.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> That would make poetry so boring


I _know_. Sigh. (Not at you, but at poetry.) I like the pretty way life is looked at, but (1) I hate all the little deep feeling stuff in poetry? Like life isn't that bad and (2) with poetry and me it's the same thing with art and me, if I know EXACTLY why the author made the poem and what it is supposed to mean I am happy with it and love it but if I don't I hate it because I know I'll interpret the poem wrong and that scares me. Like it could be a pro Confederacy poem or something and I would interpret it as pro Union. My understanding of it would be completely messed up but it would already be wound in my head and it would be hard to undo and... ack. Yeah, I like it better when I know the author's stance and know at least something of what their true intention is.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I _know_. Sigh. (Not at you, but at poetry.) I like the pretty way life is looked at, but (1) I hate all the little deep feeling stuff in poetry? Like life isn't that bad and (2) with poetry and me it's the same thing with art and me, if I know EXACTLY why the author made the poem and what it is supposed to mean I am happy with it and love it but if I don't I hate it because I know I'll interpret the poem wrong and that scares me. Like it could be a pro Confederacy poem or something and I would interpret it as pro Union. My understanding of it would be completely messed up but it would already be wound in my head and it would be hard to undo and... ack. Yeah, I like it better when I know the author's stance and know at least something of what their true intention is.


Sometimes it's worth letting go of the author's intentions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@FearAndTrembling imo love is the easiest concept in the world, and I'm still of the unfounded belief that love is the core of all religion (but of course Christianity is the most true because it does identify love as it's truth). I've been so surprised to find that not as many people see love as the truth of Christianity, and that so many people don't understand what love really means in general. (Not in the romantic way... but in the concept. Love.) In that way, it is hard to communicate. How do I tell someone how love is the truth,the one truth, how the whole Bible is about love, when they only partially see it? That's one of my frustrations in life. When something is so obvious to me but it's so hard to communicate to others.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Sometimes it's worth letting go of the author's intentions.


I read "The Intentional Fallacy". What an utter fallacy about a fallacy. I mean, I guess it's true to some people, but to me intention is everything. Of course that's me being illogical and not getting the point, but... I cannot stray from the author's intention. I can I guess once I _know_ the author's intention - you can apply the lessons of authors from centuries ago to today's problems, if you're careful - but... To not even know the author's intention at all when you start? I can't imagine. 

With literature it's easier for me - probably because I read literature a ton, and I understand it, I see it and the author's worlds stand for me on their own - but with poetry and physical art it's still extremely frightening for me, to think I could so easily misunderstand a poem in it's entirety. They're so short! No, for now I need a guide to poetry.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I read "The Intentional Fallacy". What an utter fallacy about a fallacy. I mean, I guess it's true to some people, but to me intention is everything. Of course that's me being illogical and not getting the point, but... I cannot stray from the author's intention. I can I guess once I _know_ the author's intention - you can apply the lessons of authors from centuries ago to today's problems, if you're careful - but... *To not even know the author's intention at all when you start? I can't imagine*.
> 
> With literature it's easier for me - probably because I read literature a ton, and I understand it, I see it and the author's worlds stand for me on their own - but with poetry and physical art it's still extremely frightening for me, to think I could so easily misunderstand a poem in it's entirety. They're so short! No, for now I need a guide to poetry.


I said letting go. 

Obviously if a poem or story is meant to convey a message that goes against who you are, it will be hard getting attached to the poem and your personal interpretation.


----------



## Greyhart

I've trouble going deep into interpretations of religions because I mostly seem to view it _only_ in a conjunction with the humanity. What I mean is that I _see_ it via the ways it's affecting people, culture and forming of the societies. I can't seem to view it as personal although I do _understand_ it's spirituality and effects it has on individuals it's hard for _me_ feel that way. I used to be a real a-hole towards religious people including my elderly relatives *shudder* but over the years by viewing it as I do (i.e. as a causality of society's growth and change) I came to have a deep respect for practitioners. As I grew I've met religious people (including adorable Muslim ESFP who became a family friend) and via interaction with them I came to understanding of it's value to individuals. And yet for _me_ it's still an impersonal subject to study.

Screw people that use it to justify hatred, though. Those can go to whatever hellish dimension the believe in.



alittlebear said:


> Poems are actually weird because... I don't like them. *I wish they'd just say what they mean.* There's too many ways to interpret poetry, and it bugs me. Maybe that's not NF of me, but that's really how I feel about poetry :/ (I am trying to appreciate poetry more, though.)


:laughing: This is actually weirdly me. I tend to get drowned by the possible interpretations and then find out that author was writing about their dead hamster or something. Not particularly proud of my struggle with poetry but it is what it is.

And with this I remove myself because I should eat and sleep.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I _know_. Sigh. (Not at you, but at poetry.) I like the pretty way life is looked at, but (1) I hate all the little deep feeling stuff in poetry? Like life isn't that bad and (2) with poetry and me it's the same thing with art and me, if I know EXACTLY why the author made the poem and what it is supposed to mean I am happy with it and love it but if I don't I hate it because I know I'll interpret the poem wrong and that scares me. Like it could be a pro Confederacy poem or something and I would interpret it as pro Union. My understanding of it would be completely messed up but it would already be wound in my head and it would be hard to undo and... ack. Yeah, I like it better when I know the author's stance and know at least something of what their true intention is.


Sometimes I'm like...scared to like something, for fear it's about something I don't approve of? but then it's also like, why does that matter, if it means something to me I don't have to worry about what the author intended? But I still do.
Like...Wagner. I love Wagner but unfortunately he's associated with anti-Semitism and the Nazi party so I used to feel a little uncomfortable with it, even though nothing in his work was bothering me. I finally watched a whole documentary where Stephen Fry talked about liking Wagner despite being Jewish and all this stuff, and it finally eased my conscious.

I don't think most poetry is all that touchy-feely? My favorite poem of all time is Tennyson's Ulysses. And my favorite poet is Yeats, who I realize isn't Mr. Pep and Vive but...hm. I don't really bother with any post-WWII poets. They are just trying too hard and it's just too much cynicism and nonsense for me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I said letting go.
> 
> Obviously if a poem or story is meant to convey a message that goes against who you are, it will be hard getting attached to the poem and your personal interpretation.


I just... I don't know. My whole life to some extent is understanding the actual truth of the world. Which is of course stupid, because I'm seeing the truth from my flawed eyes and perception, but... That's what I aim to do. And in discovering that truth, I'm not looking for my personal interpretation, I'm looking for the actual, I guess "universal" truth. And that means looking at it outside myself. 

Obviously I don't do that all the time, but... I think that's largely why the idea of having a personal interpretation of something makes me uncomfortable. It's cool when I'm doing it with a song or something, because songs are silly... but if I find a truth that only works for me, and not for others? I don't know. It's just silly. It's hard to explain what I mean because obviously I do find things that seem like truths just to me and not to others, but... To me, my truths are the real truths. It's stupid and not real, but... It's what I do. And why I have a hard time with poetry and personal interpretation and abstract art, I think.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I said letting go.
> 
> Obviously if a poem or story is meant to convey a message that goes against who you are, it will be hard getting attached to the poem and your personal interpretation.


OK, my problem is that I probably need any personal messages to be conveyed as directly as possible. :laughing: Weirdly enough I've no problem interpreting lyrics. As in I just go with whatever seems the best fit for the tone of melody and vocals. Perhaps it's the presence of later that helps conveying the idea? Or maybe I just shrug it and continue to enjoy music without over-thinking it.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> I _know_. Sigh. (Not at you, but at poetry.) I like the pretty way life is looked at, but (1) I hate all the little deep feeling stuff in poetry? Like life isn't that bad and (2) with poetry and me it's the same thing with art and me, if I know EXACTLY why the author made the poem and what it is supposed to mean I am happy with it and love it but if I don't I hate it because I know I'll interpret the poem wrong and that scares me. Like it could be a pro Confederacy poem or something and I would interpret it as pro Union. My understanding of it would be completely messed up but it would already be wound in my head and it would be hard to undo and... ack. Yeah, I like it better when I know the author's stance and know at least something of what their true intention is.


Have you read any Christina Rossetti poetry? I'm not that into poetry overall, but her poems (and Tennyson's and William Wordsworth's actually) are just really beautiful.

Maude Clare - Christina Rossetti (1830-1894)
The Lady of Shalott (1832) by Alfred, Lord Tennyson : The Poetry Foundation
Wordsworth: "Composed upon Westminster Bridge"

Maybe you'd like the romantics poetry more?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I just... I don't know. My whole life to some extent is understanding the actual truth of the world. Which is of course stupid, because I'm seeing the truth from my flawed eyes and perception, but... That's what I aim to do. And in discovering that truth,* I'm not looking for my personal interpretation, I'm looking for the actual, I guess "universal" truth. And that means looking at it outside myself*.
> 
> Obviously I don't do that all the time, but... I think that's largely why the idea of having a personal interpretation of something makes me uncomfortable. It's cool when I'm doing it with a song or something, because songs are silly... but if I find a truth that only works for me, and not for others? I don't know. It's just silly. It's hard to explain what I mean because obviously I do find things that seem like truths just to me and not to others, but... To me, my truths are the real truths. It's stupid and not real, but... It's what I do. And why I have a hard time with poetry and personal interpretation and abstract art, I think.


Root of our difference.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Root of our difference.


Yeah. From what @Greyhart is saying this might be a little bit of a Ti vs Te/Fi thing (possibly?)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> Have you read any Christina Rossetti poetry? I'm not that into poetry overall, but her poems (and Tennyson's and William Wordsworth's actually) are just really beautiful.
> 
> Maude Clare - Christina Rossetti (1830-1894)
> The Lady of Shalott (1832) by Alfred, Lord Tennyson : The Poetry Foundation
> Wordsworth: "Composed upon Westminster Bridge"
> 
> Maybe you'd like the romantics poetry more?


I'll look into those poets, and that genre, thank you for the suggestion! I'm going to be going to the store for summer reading material, so I will keep this in mind


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Yeah. From what @_Greyhart_ is saying this might be a little bit of a Ti vs Te/Fi thing (possibly?)


I actually wonder if it's a bit of Fe-Ti vs Te-Fi - Fe wants a sort of general consensus on value (interpretative value, I guess?) and Ti wants a personal truth, while Te wants a general consensus on truth and Fi wants a personal value. At least as far as I know. I'm wondering how it works with poetry specifically.


----------



## daybreak

Barakiel said:


> Huh, I didn't think anyone would respond to that. :laughing:
> 
> For me, what stands out as rather intuitive, is my sense of seeing where conversations go, this leads to here, then to here and then there, so you should say this. Makes it rather easy to guide people into conversations which you want to talk about, and probably why I've derailed so many threads. :kitteh:
> 
> Still, thanks for the read, @scintillating, maybe this is why we conflict so much on typings. :tongue:


Well ur not wrong! That right there sounds like Extroverted Intuition - a connecting of dots, a perceiving of trajectory and following up with your judging function! This is why ENTPs are generally quite chatty and argumentative - their Ti implores them to criticise any faults they sniff out - and why ENFPs are so inspiring (or arrogant) - their Fi demands that trajectories follow a path they see as righteous or well.

Any ways, where Ni perceives qualities subjectively and creates something out of their natures, Ne tends towards helping direct, guide, and hop between the more objective qualities of objects. Ne sees what is happening and where it is going! These directions that others can verify. Meanwhile, Ni sees why it's happening and what that means on a distant scale, something that others are left to try adopting or adapting to their own.

If Ne is connecting the dots, Ni is like...colouring in the blanks! Maybe? Does that work for you?? Lmfao!


----------



## FearAndTrembling

laurie17 said:


> I actually wonder if it's a bit of Fe-Ti vs Te-Fi - Fe wants a sort of general consensus on value (interpretative value, I guess?) and Ti wants a personal truth, while Te wants a general consensus on truth and Fi wants a personal value. At least as far as I know. I'm wondering how it works with poetry specifically.


I love the movie SIGNS. I have the idea that in front of every great truth is a brilliant falsehood. You have to go through the falsehood to get to the truth. You have to be true to the falsehood though. The real truth is there, but it can never be held up to an outside light and be decided for you. You have to figure it out yourself. So it isn't objective that way, but I think there is something deeper that even the writers themselves don't know. Guys like Aristotle and Jung understood art better than artists do. 

“God takes away the minds of poets, and uses them as his ministers, as he also uses diviners and holy prophets, in order that we who hear them may know them to be speaking not of themselves who utter these priceless words in a state of unconsciousness, but that God himself is the speaker, and that through them he is conversing with us. "
I decided that it was not wisdom that enabled poets to write their poetry, but a kind of instinct or inspiration, such as you find in seers and prophets who deliver all their sublime messages without knowing in the least what they mean.


-Socrates

I like what Roger Ebert said about SIGNS:

At the end of the film, I had to smile, recognizing how Shyamalan has essentially ditched a payoff. He knows, as we all sense, that payoffs have grown boring. The mechanical resolution of a movie's problems is something we sit through at the end, but it's the setup and the buildup that keep our attention. "Signs" is all buildup. It's still building when it's over.


There is a payoff there though. 

There has to be some universality for art to relate. So it is objective in a sense. It gives a louder voice to something that is dimly lit. 

Movies like Pan's Labyrinth and Wizard of Oz. Which one is true? The dream world, or the "real" world? They are both true. That is the "objective" truth.


----------



## Greyhart

Ugh, now that I've slept I wanted to make sure that that religious comment wasn't taken as meaning to offend. Yes, I am atheist but I am mature enough to realized that when it comes to people my opinion isn't universal and my truths are subjective. Now, if we are talking about non-people related things I am more likely to dig my heels in, yes. I greatly enjoy reading your religious point of view and find it quite insightful for my own outlook.

It's something I think Ti>Fe preference related, to be able to both connect to people but also still keep this removed machine core. I've noticed it in many TPs especially young ones on this forum. I don't think that recognizing a value of individual spiritual truths is something that Fi in any position would struggle and for high Fe users, they have a more natural attunement to people.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Have you read any Christina Rossetti poetry? I'm not that into poetry overall, but her poems (and Tennyson's and William Wordsworth's actually) are just really beautiful.
> 
> Maude Clare - Christina Rossetti (1830-1894)
> The Lady of Shalott (1832) by Alfred, Lord Tennyson : The Poetry Foundation
> Wordsworth: "Composed upon Westminster Bridge"
> 
> Maybe you'd like the romantics poetry more?


The first one bypassed me, the second I've read before it's like a fairy tale to me, remind me of song of this band.





Last one I liked the most, it... painted a picture.


----------



## Greyhart

FearAndTrembling said:


> I love the movie SIGNS. I have the idea that in front of every great truth is a brilliant falsehood. You have to go through the falsehood to get to the truth. You have to be true to the falsehood though. The real truth is there, but it can never be held up to an outside light and be decided for you. You have to figure it out yourself. So it isn't objective that way, but I think there is something deeper that even the writers themselves don't know. Guys like Aristotle and Jung understood art better than artists do.


This is interesting because I can relate to this too. I however believe in causation and that artists themselves are often unaware of a chain of influences stretching behind their art.]



> Movies like Pan's Labyrinth and Wizard of Oz. Which one is true? The dream world, or the "real" world? They are both true. That is the "objective" truth.


I still can't decide on the former one. Is it a fantasy or is it a psychological drama (tragedy even) or both?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I hate alternate reality stuff that doesn't make sense to me, isn't grounded. I can do Star Wars. I can do Marvel stuff. I can do LOTR, I can do Harry Potter, PJO, etc... But not Wizard of Oz and Alice in Wonderland. That's too out of this world for me. There are no boundaries. It's just Weird, and Weird Without Meaning to my young self. Now I'm more okay with it - I liked Tim Burton's Wonderland movie, and I find the Oz adaptations interesting (outside OUAT which is terrible at putting stories together, the dear show), but as a child the cartoons really unsettled me, and to this day they would probably make me very uncomfortable.

Oh course I being this up a lot. But it's my obligatory thing to say when Oz or Wonderland is brought up.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> The first one bypassed me, the second I've read before it's like a fairy tale to me, remind me of song of this band.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last one I liked the most, it... painted a picture.


It's based on Arthurian legend of course; this song was written from the poem: 



 , it's one of my favorite songs of all time))


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> The first one bypassed me, the second I've read before it's like a fairy tale to me, remind me of song of this band.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last one I liked the most, it... painted a picture.


Oh, I've read the Lady of Shallot! I didn't realize. It was on my practice AP exam. To me it was just so... sad to me. Solemn. All poetry is sort of like that for me, though. 

Let me go see if I can locate this one poem. I love it. Brb.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay, here's a poem we went over in class and I _loved_

My Last Duchess by Robert Browning : The Poetry Foundation

It's just like... I relate to this girl. That would be my fault if I was a teenage girl married to an older guy as well - I'm so warm and friendly, I couldn't stop that, I wouldn't recognize he was getting upset by this and he would kill me off. Sort of what happens with my guy friends already except they haven't killed me off yet, thank goodness. 

Only it's interesting because we talked in class about how the girl in the poem could actually also be like... adulterous. There are hints that she actually cheated on her husband, that she was more than just innocent and kind. And that made me feel funky... because like, I really am like that, and I'm pretty genuine with it? But still, it's interesting to think about the poem, ponder the story within it and whether or not the poor girl was entirely innocent. 

(Sorry I just love this poem. I also like Emily Dickinson, but poems like these make me happy. Such a story. Such beautiful language. Eeee.)


----------



## Dangerose

Oh my God though, this song is based on "Up the Airy Mountain", I used to be told this poem like a nursery rhyme or something, and I can't tell you how much it scared me. The Fairies by William Allingham This song is cool)
It's funny, though, the story about Bridget and how they stole her and kept her under the lake, watching till she wake...it was interesting, I read an Alaskan legend about a girl who was taken under the lake by the frog-people; it was very, very similar. Made me think about how fairytales develop in very similar ways all over the world (and Joseph Campbell introduced the book, who was Jungian, so this connects...), tapping into the unconscious mythology.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Okay, here's a poem we went over in class and I _loved_
> 
> My Last Duchess by Robert Browning : The Poetry Foundation
> 
> It's just like... I relate to this girl. That would be my fault if I was a teenage girl married to an older guy as well - I'm so warm and friendly, I couldn't stop that, I wouldn't recognize he was getting upset by this and he would kill me off. Sort of what happens with my guy friends already except they haven't killed me off yet, thank goodness.
> 
> Only it's interesting because we talked in class about how the girl in the poem could actually also be like... adulterous. There are hints that she actually cheated on her husband, that she was more than just innocent and kind. And that made me feel funky... because like, I really am like that, and I'm pretty genuine with it? But still, it's interesting to think about the poem, ponder the story within it and whether or not the poor girl was entirely innocent.
> 
> (Sorry I just love this poem. I also like Emily Dickinson, but poems like these make me happy. Such a story. Such beautiful language. Eeee.)


I always assumed she was adulterous! Never considered otherwise...I'll have to rethink it actually) Still creepy)

Here's one of my favorite poems; I can't explain why I love it so much but it's so...expressive, I started to embroider the whole thing but...I got bored)) Adam's Curse by William Butler Yeats : The Poetry Foundation
I wonder how easy it is to discern MBTI type from poetry? Like, this poem seems awfully...Si perhaps?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I hate alternate reality stuff that doesn't make sense to me, isn't grounded. I can do Star Wars. I can do Marvel stuff. I can do LOTR, I can do Harry Potter, PJO, etc... But not Wizard of Oz and Alice in Wonderland. That's too out of this world for me. There are no boundaries. It's just Weird, and Weird Without Meaning to my young self. Now I'm more okay with it - I liked Tim Burton's Wonderland movie, and I find the Oz adaptations interesting (outside OUAT which is terrible at putting stories together, the dear show), but as a child the cartoons really unsettled me, and to this day they would probably make me very uncomfortable.
> 
> Oh course I being this up a lot. But it's my obligatory thing to say when Oz or Wonderland is brought up.


Hah, i remember you said you hate Roald Dahl's books? I love Fantastic Mr. Fox. xD

For Pan's Labyrinth the unclear ending did not bother me it's is however a very very sad movie. :crying:

For Oz and Alice, since those are my childhood books I roll with "it actually happened because theirs world is a fantasy". As a kid I was indifferent towards Wonderland but I was extremely into Through the Looking-Glass. _Extremely._


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> It's based on Arthurian legend of course; this song was written from the poem:
> 
> 
> 
> , it's one of my favorite songs of all time))


This just 10000 times more awesome.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Oh my God though, this song is based on "Up the Airy Mountain", I used to be told this poem like a nursery rhyme or something, and I can't tell you how much it scared me. The Fairies by William Allingham This song is cool)
> It's funny, though, the story about Bridget and how they stole her and kept her under the lake, watching till she wake...it was interesting, I read an Alaskan legend about a girl who was taken under the lake by the frog-people; it was very, very similar. Made me think about how fairytales develop in very similar ways all over the world (and Joseph Campbell introduced the book, who was Jungian, so this connects...), tapping into the unconscious mythology.


That's a really interesting poem. Thank you for sharing! I'm sorry it used to frighten you, although I can definitely see how it would. 

Interesting note about fairy tales as well. I tried lightly studying the similarities between fairy tales last year in my free time (because I wanted to write a fairy tale based book; it didn't work out), but I never realized that point. Thank you for making it. 

I think I could get into this poetry thing. I like it when the poetry has it's own little world, it's own story? I mean it's good when it's telling about life too, but it's also beautiful when it says something within a little world, a framework, a little story. I like that. Hmm. I'll have to read some more of this stuff when I get the chance.


----------



## Dangerose

@alittlebear, I agree about Alice and Wonderland...I loved the animation but there were no ground rules for what could happen, I tend to hate "Calvinball" fantasy.
The Oz books though...I still treasure them) Princess Langwidere was my profile picture for like two minutes) Actually, Ozma was like my childhood alter-ego (which partly contributed to my username?) Baum is actually very clear about the rules of magic in his books (unfortunately a lot of it involves body parts having a life of their own) and such, and I loved the little maps and such) There were so many delightful details, like the vegetable people and the guy who lived on a mountain where everything was candy, and the Glass Kitten and the sisters who lived on the rainbow) 
Which...sorry, off-topic, I must reign in my Si which is desperately wanting to defend my childhood favorites))


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin I didn't think of it as adulterous because it just describes me, lol. As silly as that is. And I mean... He killed her. He could have easily been paranoid and wanted to kill her for false thoughts of her adultery. Like Othello. Of course he would paint her as this adulterous, terrible woman even when she wasn't. 

But goodness Oswin, you know so much poetry! @laurie17 probably does as well, the way she was talking about it. I think that's wonderful. You two are inspiring me, honestly. I want to be familiar with poetry in this way. It seems even this poetry website we're using now could be a good resource. 

@Greyhart yes yes, I hate Ronald Dahl books! They don't even make sense. They have lessons and those things, but they operate in a world where some things are possible and some things absolutely are not and that's really annoying to me. Frustrating. I need to know limits of a universe, especially when things like magic are so important, like in his books :/ 

I was more into realistic fiction as a kid. And elephants. I really liked non fiction books about elephants. And of course animal fantasy, but that's always been me honestly. I'm going to reread _Watership Down_ soon actually, and buy the soundtrack for that terrible Nick adaptation of Charlotte's Web.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Okay, here's a poem we went over in class and I _loved_
> 
> My Last Duchess by Robert Browning : The Poetry Foundation
> 
> It's just like... *I relate to this girl.* That would be my fault if I was a teenage girl married to an older guy as well - I'm so warm and friendly, I couldn't stop that, *I wouldn't recognize he was getting upset by this and he would kill me off. Sort of what happens with my guy friends already except they haven't killed me off yet, thank goodness. *
> 
> Only it's interesting because we talked in class about how the girl in the poem could actually also be like... adulterous. There are hints that she actually cheated on her husband, that she was more than just innocent and kind. And that made me feel funky... because like, I really am like that, and I'm pretty genuine with it? But still, it's interesting to think about the poem, ponder the story within it and whether or not the poor girl was entirely innocent.
> 
> (Sorry I just love this poem. I also like Emily Dickinson, but poems like these make me happy. Such a story. Such beautiful language. Eeee.)












Have to admit my mind went to adultery first too. 

I don't usually bring it up because I sound pretentious but once I was able to read English well enough I began to _really_ enjoy Shakespeare 90% because of the word flow. He could be telling a story about an ambitious male hamster's love life and it still would be pleasing to my senses.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin I didn't think of it as adulterous because it just describes me, lol. As silly as that is. And I mean... He killed her. He could have easily been paranoid and wanted to kill her for false thoughts of her adultery. Like Othello. Of course he would paint her as this adulterous, terrible woman even when she wasn't.


Yeah, I guess it's open to interpretation. Which kinda makes it creepier :/ I made the classic Fe mistake of believing the silly Duke)

I think Norton's Anthology of Poetry is really the best if you want a nice collection of the most important poems; they have a good selection in my opinion)
I couldn't deal with animal fantasy; it made me too sad! I had that stupid "The Bear" movie and it just killed me every time I watched it (then again, The Red Balloon made me sad...) Though I watched "The Three Lives of Thomasina" (about a cat) like every week. I really really loved books with maps)) Like, maps were just my favorite thing) Especially when they had fun little details and such) Actually, I still secretly love maps) Or is it secret? I have like 3 maps up on my walls. I read mostly L.M. Montgomery, Lloyd Alexander, E. Nesbitt, and L. Frank Baum (and of course Harry Potter)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart I think both @Oswin and I are kind of familiar with Shakespeare by choice, so don't worry about sounding too pretentious. If anything I'm the pretentious one because I use all my too-much knowledge from my Shakespeare class last semester too much now 

I want to be able to talk like Jane Austen wrote. I just love the way she puts together words. I have a hard time reading her stuff because it's just so gorgeous, I get jealous and have to stop. (So I think I might possibly understand how you might feel about Shakespeare's words.)


----------



## Greyhart

> yes yes, I hate Ronald Dahl books! They don't even make sense. They have lessons and those things, but they operate in a world where some things are possible and some things absolutely are not and that's really annoying to me. Frustrating. I need to know limits of a universe, especially when things like magic are so important, like in his books :/














> I was more into realistic fiction as a kid. And elephants. I really liked non fiction books about elephants. And of course animal fantasy, but that's always been me honestly. I'm going to reread _Watership Down_ soon actually, and buy the soundtrack for that terrible Nick adaptation of Charlotte's Web.


Spider book I did have. Cried over it. And owned a tiny spider pet for a year. I think she/he died because of natural causes in the end since I fed "her" well. Now I am arachnophobic. How did this happen. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Have to admit my mind went to adultery first too.
> 
> I don't usually bring it up because I sound pretentious but once I was able to read English well enough I began to _really_ enjoy Shakespeare 90% because of the word flow. He could be telling a story about an ambitious male hamster's love life and it still would be pleasing to my senses.


(Your English is _really_ good if it's your second language; I would never have guessed!)
I can't tell if you're Russian or not) What about Pushkin? I used to have half of Eugene Onegin memorized; sadly, no longer(


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Spider book I did have. Cried over it. And owned a tiny spider pet for a year. I think she/he died because of natural causes in the end since I fed "her" well. Now I am arachnophobic. How did this happen. :dry:


Okay don't give me that face. Tell me this sequence wouldn't be deeply disturbing to a poor Fe using kid. 





Charlotte's Web was my childhood. Before American Girl was my childhood, at least. And Warriors. But Charlotte's Web... I would be willing to bet a hundred dollars or so that I've read the book more times than anyone currently living now. I have four different copies. FOUR OF THEM. I just kept reading it so much that I destroyed every single paperback copy I kept buying. I don't know why I kept reading it but I did? :shrug: It's so gorgeous. 

Also, your English is extremely good.  or maybe I should say "well". I don't know  But honestly we wouldn't know the difference if you hadn't mentioned that it's not your first language.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart I think both @Oswin and I are kind of familiar with Shakespeare by choice, so don't worry about sounding too pretentious. If anything I'm the pretentious one because I use all my too-much knowledge from my Shakespeare class last semester too much now
> 
> I want to be able to talk like Jane Austen wrote. I just love the way she puts together words. I have a hard time reading her stuff because it's just so gorgeous, I get jealous and have to stop. (So I think I might possibly understand how you might feel about Shakespeare's words.)


It is a fact universally acknowledged that Miss Austen's grasp of the English language exceeds the common measure in simplicity, elegance, and wit, so that to imitate her would seem as preposterous as a canary attempting to imitate the sun.

(Not calling you a canary, sorry, just trying to make an interesting sentence.)

I wish she narrated my life though. Usually I pretend that she is.


----------



## fair phantom

Roald Dahl books are rather mean-spirited when you stop and think about them. And everything associated with _Charlie and the Chocolate_ factory was ruined for me when I studied the book in a Children's Lit class and realized how racist/imperialist it was with regard to the oompa loompas. Just look at the original drawing:









That said, I do have a soft spot for _Matilda_.
@alittlebear your problem with _Alice in Wonderland _has my mind turning. I once wrote an essay for a social psychology class about how the inconsistent behavior and lack of social norms in Wonderland made it difficult for Alice to stabilize her identity as a social being. I wonder if part of the reason you are unsettled by the story is because you are an Fe-dom?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin oh, I wouldn't want to _write_ like her! I have my own writing style, and I like it pretty well actually  It's just one of my teachers once said "I wish I could talk like Tom Sawyer writes" and when I opened my Jane Austen book, I knew that's how I felt about her language  
@fair phantom We discussed my dislike of Wonderland (in-depth, haha) on another topic and we traced it back to a combination of my weak Ti (unable to function without defined rules and underlying logical rules of the world), the little bit of Se I have (I want realism?), and probably some of my very irrational anxiety problems. I suppose Alice and social roles could have something to do with it too. She was in a world where there was no one like her. How could she ever fit in? I kept wanting her to wake up and go back to being apart of _her_ world, where she could be a _person_ and stuff. And not be stuck in this chaotic, dangerous, silly and irrational world she was in. (And I guess I felt sort of the same way about the Tim Burton movie as well. I loved the parts before she went into Wonderland, but... After that it was creepy. I suppose I liked the parts with the White Queen, but other than that is was all very uncomfortable.)


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin oh, I wouldn't want to _write_ like her! I have my own writing style, and I like it pretty well actually  It's just one of my teachers once said "I wish I could talk like Tom Sawyer writes" and when I opened my Jane Austen book, I knew that's how I felt about her language


No, I knew what you meant, I just...yeah)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh, and while we're on the topic of children's literature...

I know I've mentioned before that I hate the idea of utopia, and it's hard for me to wrap my head around. Communism makes me laugh. John Lennon makes me laugh. Perfection is impossible, and while it's nice to strive for, it's also something I dislike teasing myself with. 

HOWEVER, 

The book The Giver (my italics function isn't working now but you know what I mean) and the rest of the books in its quartet... They are beauty to me. The series - in the last two books - shows what to me is the closest thing I think we can get to a utopia on earth. 

And it's funny, hilarious, because communism is obviously directly addressed in the first book of the quartet. Perfection is impossible. One can achieve security for a population, and "equality," but in doing this one cuts out love and basic humanity and... That's a problem. Obviously. 

The second book does the opposite. Enter a world that's not too dark... but dark. A world where there is true kindness, but there is also true cruelty. Where you'll be put to death for not being able to walk and literally no one will raise a word in your defense. 

The last two books find a balance. There's a small community where everyone just... loves each other, it seems. Of course they have drama, but at the end of the day they all care for each other, they support each other, they don't fight but instead do what they can to help each other survive and enjoy their lives (arranging dances, educating themselves, etc.) 

It's just so beautiful to me. If I was a daydreamer, I would live in that world. It's perfect. My idea of the closest thing we could get to perfection on earth. 

(A teeny bit random, but I've been meaning to bring it up, and I'm buying the quartet tomorrow so it's on my mind again. My love of this utopia (and one probably by an NFP author) sort of contradicts my past aversion to utopia fiction, but I think it could be a little different because the whole thing with Lowry's utopia I think is that they embrace their human nature rather than shirking away from it. Gahhhh. So gorgeous.)


----------



## Dangerose

(Oh, I can't stand Lowry! Well, not _hate_ but I was...amazingly, both bored and disturbed at the same time) I liked the bit where the apple turned red though)
Did you ever read the City of Ember? I loved the idea of Ember)) I loved the little underground the world, it always made me really want to appreciate the things I had)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> (Oh, I can't stand Lowry! Well, not _hate_ but I was...amazingly, both bored and disturbed at the same time) I liked the bit where the apple turned red though)
> Did you ever read the City of Ember? I loved the idea of Ember)) I loved the little underground the world, it always made me really want to appreciate the things I had)


Oh my goodness, Oswin! Now you've got to explain what you disliked about Lowry's books. (I'm really just curious. I know they're not for everyone, but they're like perfect to me in almost every way [minus having special characters with special destinies and special gifts, but... She really does ammend for this in her last book, I think]. I would love to know what is so off putting about her work to you  

City of Ember...? No, I thought you meant Cassandra Clare's books (which I do not have a high opinion of), but no, I have not read City of Ember! I'll look it up later, but I'm glad that it made you happy in that way. I love books that do that.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Oh, and while we're on the topic of children's literature...
> 
> I know I've mentioned before that I hate the idea of utopia, and it's hard for me to wrap my head around. Communism makes me laugh. John Lennon makes me laugh. Perfection is impossible, and while it's nice to strive for, it's also something I dislike teasing myself with.
> 
> HOWEVER,
> 
> The book The Giver (my italics function isn't working now but you know what I mean) and the rest of the books in its quartet... They are beauty to me. The series - in the last two books - shows what to me is the closest thing I think we can get to a utopia on earth.
> 
> And it's funny, hilarious, because communism is obviously directly addressed in the first book of the quartet. Perfection is impossible. One can achieve security for a population, and "equality," but in doing this one cuts out love and basic humanity and... That's a problem. Obviously.
> 
> The second book does the opposite. Enter a world that's not too dark... but dark. A world where there is true kindness, but there is also true cruelty. Where you'll be put to death for not being able to walk and literally no one will raise a word in your defense.
> 
> The last two books find a balance. There's a small community where everyone just... loves each other, it seems. Of course they have drama, but at the end of the day they all care for each other, they support each other, they don't fight but instead do what they can to help each other survive and enjoy their lives (arranging dances, educating themselves, etc.)
> 
> It's just so beautiful to me. If I was a daydreamer, I would live in that world. It's perfect. My idea of the closest thing we could get to perfection on earth.
> 
> (A teeny bit random, but I've been meaning to bring it up, and I'm buying the quartet tomorrow so it's on my mind again. My love of this utopia (and one probably by an NFP author) sort of contradicts my past aversion to utopia fiction, but I think it could be a little different because the whole thing with Lowry's utopia I think is that they embrace their human nature rather than shirking away from it. Gahhhh. So gorgeous.)


Eloquently put. I love those books too. They are by no means perfect, but I love them for the reasons you said. It envisions the possibilities of the future, looking for a better way, but it is so _human_ (yes, even though some characters have powers). And, as you said, the "utopia" (I don't strictly consider it one) seeks _balance_—between the community and the individual, between law and freedom—and I find that to be a more realistic and noble vision. It isn't all-or-nothing.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Oh my goodness, Oswin! Now you've got to explain what you disliked about Lowry's books. (I'm really just curious. I know they're not for everyone, but they're like perfect to me in almost every way [minus having special characters with special destinies and special gifts, but... She really does ammend for this in her last book, I think]. I would love to know what is so off putting about her work to you
> 
> City of Ember...? No, I thought you meant Cassandra Clare's books (which I do not have a high opinion of), but no, I have not read City of Ember! I'll look it up later, but I'm glad that it made you happy in that way. I love books that do that.


Why are you so against books with special characters with special destinies and gifts?)) It's the crux on which literature revolves) It's what ties it to myth and all that) The hero in some respects has to be the 'chosen one'. (If you think about it, it ties in nicely to Christian mythology as well. Like...we are all 'the chosen one', kinda (also, Jesus?)) And, I mean, I don't think it's making it so that one character is higher than the others...the truth of that system is that every person is the hero, the sage, the servant, we fall into different archetypes in different situations at different points in our lives. Kinda.)

Ugh. Lowry...first of all, I didn't find her writing style appealing, or her worlds engaging. It did not feel real to me, I certainly wasn't transported anywhere. Part of it maybe was that my mother was constantly raving about how good Lowry was, and all the books had the little prize badges on them and all these good reviews so I always felt underwhelmed when I actually read the books. But the characters, I couldn't relate to the characters. They felt off to me, not like human beings at all. (Actually, I felt the same way about Madeleine l'Engle as well). Like...I felt like I knew every nook and cranny of Oz, of Narnia, of Hogwarts, Prydain, etc...and the characters there were my old friends and I could go see them whenever I liked...but Lowry's books felt so distant. I felt more like I was being lectured than anything else? Or like she (?) was trying to impress on me the literary merit? And still...like the tiny boy being put to death, I _hated_ that, not that I couldn't deal with death in books, my favorite book was about a girl who died, just it felt out of place and meaningless in the book. Like, in a book, every life and every death should have _meaning_, right? It should come at the right place. It should signify something. For instance, when Dumbledore dies it signifies that Harry is now ready to stand on his own, without a mentor, and it signifies the end of an era. When Matthew dies, in Anne of Green Gables...well, I couldn't tell you exactly what it was a symbol for, but it felt in place. But killing off an infant, without making it a moment of beauty, without that life having any meaning...it made me uncomfortable and unhappy in a bad way, in the cosmology of Lowry's universe death did not have an intrinsic meaning, so life also did not have a meaning, so it was not a world I wanted to go to, even if it would teach me a lesson about not destroying the family and creating a communistic community, like I at 8 years old or at any time in my life was going to do that anyway.

Does that make sense? I know it's not intellectual but even thinking of that book just makes me somewhat unsettled and vaguely angry)


----------



## Greyhart

Austen is hard to read for me. Her English is very different from modern I am used too. And yeah, I realize I said I like Shakespeare but as I said it's more about flow of words for me than a content.

Going to admit I've never heard of books you mention. As I kid I liked the spider book, Winnie the Pooh (really really really a lot), Through the Looking-Glass, Mary Poppins, Mowgli, Russian version of Oz, 12 chairs (yeah, I've definitely read it before I was 10) and some folklore tales. That's about it. I wasn't into fiction until Harry Potter. That would be around 12 years old. Before that I was all about encyclopedias and study books. I've read medical encyclopedia about human reproduction when I was 6-ish. :laughing: I don't remember ever buying into "birds leaving babies in patches of vegetables" and can't remember how I even got that people are born out of other people but that day was superb because I've finally understood how it's done and that feeling of light bulb basically dictates my entire life... Though the earliest had to be when I was 4 and realized that Santa can't be real and I felt extremely smug about that. And then went to tell my parents. In details. I very vividly remember how dad was almost falling of the couch laughing and mom was like "*gasp* OH, MY GOD" for the entirety of my "lecture". That was also a very important for me because continuing making people laugh and gasp in shock (in non-offensive one, tho) is one of my raison d'etre...s how do you plural this.

Dystopian and apocalyptic scenarios are more fun to read because it's interesting to see just how low the author will sink the humanity. Myself I am a fun of cyberpunk and variety of genres that sprung from it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Hmm. I'm that way to some extent...? I'm respectful of other people's beliefs. But I still acknowledge in my head when they're wrong  Like I will see how wrong they are but I still look at the beliefs and derive from that how the person thinks, what they value, what they don't value. It tells me a few things, you know?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> If this Fe ship goes down, I'm taking all you mistyped Fi folk with me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> *snort* it's a 8th grade school program for us. Kiddie reading, thumbs up. :laughing: Erm, from what I remembered I felt sorry for him in the end too. Maybe if he had someone in his life to... open his eyes I suppose it wouldn't go down that road.
> 
> 
> Incredibly lame way of relating to it or even formulating it like that.


I'm impressed, honestly  

Yeah, my professor was comparing my / his sense of guilt to the guilt of a guy who murdered two people... I mean, it is sort of the same, but the circumstances were _completely_ different to the point where it was incomparable I think. 

And the character was so... ugh. He said he hated his family. He had no regard for them. Or... anyone. I couldn't understand how he was living with himself, with that much hatred. 

I did relate to his Ni/Se cognitive process - I think the first book of the book is a great example of how Ni and Se works, how Ni contemplates and Se acts definitively once it decides to - but apart from that I was like "what the heck" with him. He should have just gotten a job to pay his family, gotten some humility, not killed two ladies


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Hmm. I'm that way to some extent...? I'm respectful of other people's beliefs. But I still acknowledge in my head when they're wrong  Like I will see how wrong they are but I still look at the beliefs and derive from that how the person thinks, what they value, what they don't value. It tells me a few things, you know?


It's like you're looking at a box with straight, defined edges when it's actually wibbly-wobbly.


----------



## Greyhart

OK, I srsly need to start doing things around house so before removing myself. Don't freak out. I relate a bit to every function there is. It's not about relating to _a single example_ of how a function would behave. Also, no offense, but hell your no Ne dom, bro. :tongue: Embrace your overly-projective Fe dominant existence.









P.S. Harry Potter's world I think pretty much stuck in a time. They might be getting some new potions and change a cut of robes a bit but otherwise Ne DOM'S HORROR WORLD COME ALIVE. NOTHING CHANGES. I AM WEARING MY GREAT GRANDMA'S DRAPES.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> It's like you're looking at a box with straight, defined edges when it's actually wibbly-wobbly.


I think I see what you're saying and I think I agree. 

Like my neighbor. He's racist. And sexist. He just is. But to me, I hear things and go... Oh. He values tradition. He values common sense. He values what he knows. And he does think he isn't racist and sexist, he's unaware of the stupid things he does. 

But more than that, I would see him as he identifies himself. As a Conservative. As an American. As a former member of the military. I think I oneself really see people like that, to be honest. I grew up seeing people as a part of their clique. I saw people as part of this school or that school. I tried not to view them differently, I tried to keep in touch with the fact that they were in fact still an individual and a person, but still when I spoke with them I would recognize that we were separated by these different groups we belonged to.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> OK, I srsly need to start doing things around house so before removing myself. Don't freak out. I relate a bit to every function there is. It's not about relating to _a single example_ of how a function would behave. Also, no offense, but hell your no Ne dom, bro. :tongue: Embrace your overly-projective Fe dominant existence.


I don't know what a proper acceptance of an Fe dom would be so I'll just do a <3 

(Also I was gonna say I related to the Ni description a lot too, haha, and none of the Ne. I was gonna say I would be ISFP if not ENFJ


----------



## Pressed Flowers

If this helps support my Fe-dominance, I've been told that I very much appear like Debbie on this show


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay. Okay. Fe questioning crisis averted. Continue with the conversation ~


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Okay. Okay. Fe questioning crisis averted. Continue with the conversation ~


That was fast.



alittlebear said:


> I'm impressed, honestly


Yeah, it's fun how all the pretentious Russian literature is actually kiddie school read here. :crazy:



> Yeah, my professor was comparing my / his sense of guilt to the guilt of a guy who murdered two people... I mean, it is sort of the same, but the circumstances were _completely_ different to the point where it was incomparable I think.
> Generalized. What your prof said. So err like cliched way possible to go for explanation there :\\\\\
> 
> *And the character was so... ugh. He said he hated his family. He had no regard for them. Or... anyone. I couldn't understand how he was living with himself, with that much hatred. *
> 
> I did relate to his Ni/Se cognitive process - I think the first book of the book is a great example of how Ni and Se works, how Ni contemplates and Se acts definitively once it decides to - but apart from that I was like "what the heck" with him. He should have just gotten a job to pay his family, gotten some humility, not killed two ladies


I'd define this feeling as a pity. I feel the same towards Norman Bates.

@FearAndTrembling I just realized that no one ever debated or even talked about philosophy with me. No one O_O

OK, definitely do chores and sleep now. Why dishes don't wash themselves.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Greyhart said:


> (1)Evolution. It's the system of life. It existed. We observed it and gave it a name.
> (2)Both. _The system_ was there we invented the way to interpret it in a way that we could manipulate it. I suppose I see system as an absolute. It is always there we just need to find ways to see it and translate to our language. Or create a new one.
> (3) No, brain. You will not go there. No.
> 
> 
> We could program them to be an ideal image of what human is supposed to be. Compassion, self-sacrifice and all that. The true "life" however starting from even smallest 1 cellar organisms lives by "survive, feed, procreate" principles. Question is would the synthetics need to abide that too to be considered alive and sentient? Sentience is human construct after all. We don't know how other "sentient" species perceive it.
> 
> 
> Expect in Animatrix it shown that after machines separated themselves into a different race/nation they tried to establish peace but were attacked in return. So that that goes into "Kill or Die" instinct that we attribute to living creatures. Question is would we program this instinct into the machines? Skynet on the other hand was programmed for war which is an exclusively (so far) human construct. There yes, she has the human ethics we gave her. Again, it's the question what would we chose to give to them.
> 
> 
> For Matrix, I'd take red pill if I didn't know about "real" world because curiosity but if I knew... Real world of Matrix is drab and dangerous. Would all humans chose to be "freed" into post-apocalyptic Earth instead of comfortable The Sims existence? Nobody voted for Neo.
> 
> Machines used people a batteries but that's irrelevant. Relevant part is _"We are incomplete too, and people can appeal to God, the creator outside the system, to answer"_ yes, if we chose to. Or we can look for an explanation ourselves.
> 
> All of this makes me truly wish we had a view of other sentient beings. Sorry, Ne. :tongue: That sounds more and more disastrous to me, however. We are the same species and we can't agree on perception what would happen if 2 completely different sentience species would to meet.
> 
> 
> That immediately sends me towards need for upkeep and maintenance that would either mean that AI has an access to the outside world or there are other smaller AIs that keep the machinery working. If it's the former truly intelligent AI could use it to increase it's capacity and expand. Shit, I am using same logic as life does - survive, procreate/expand, eliminate competition.
> 
> If it's the later, then where does it end. Who maintains the maintenance machines. WIll the maintenance machines end up upgrading themselves and connecting to the "main" machine?
> 
> 
> If we built it after our image, yes. It will have a curiosity.
> 
> I just looked outside my window where wind is ruffling the leaves on a tree and thought what processing power would be needed to simulate this kind of physics on this scale. Eeey, help. I now think I might be in a computer simulation.


Whose system is it though? Is it nature's system, or ours? 

*What is provided in primary experience is a ‘gross’ and thoroughly subjective relationship to external objects. These objects imprint emotive, psychological, physical, and all sorts of sensory data onto our minds, and with very little, if any at all, reflection upon these objects, we come to have experience in the most basic sense possible. Most of life is conducted in this ‘mode’. It is not until we enter the ‘mode’ of secondary experience that we begin to understand objects of primary experience in a systematic, intelligent, and comprehensive fashion.

*So, an apple falling is "primary experience". As I mentioned earlier, we don't actually learn anything from primary experience. We have to bring it around to what Dewey called "secondary experience", or theory. I can witness the same event a billion times, but not actually understand it, until I abstract the right properties. Until I bring it around to secondary experience. So, as Bruce Lee said, the Western approach to reality is through theory, and theory begins by saying the outside world is not a basic fact. That its existence can be doubted. That every proposition can be abstracted from the senses and infinitely divided. It is to stand aside and square a circle. 

*First of all, abstractions formed about objects of primary experience are essential for the development of knowledge and intelligent understanding, argues Dewey. He in no way aimed to discredit the function and utility of abstractions. What he critiques is, is when philosophers take their developed abstractions about primary objects and regard the abstractions as the ‘antecedent’ causes of those objects.

Meaning, the objects of primary experience exist and possess their ‘nature’ because of the ‘antecedent’ causes. These ‘antecedent’ causes are then ‘deified’, considered as the prime ‘substance’, ‘thing’, or ‘reality’ of the objects, and held as the only possible cause for the existence of the objects.*

*Consider Dewey’s remarks about Darwin: he “began with pigeons, cattle, and plants…”, formed a theory (abstraction), and even though Darwin’s conclusions were “contrary to commonsense” his hypothesis proved fruitful when used in the context of “raw experience”.

Abstractions can serve no other function. They have no use beyond the beneficial understanding they provide us in regards to primary experience. The usefulness of an abstraction is defined by the limits of what it provides us. And so, it is not the process of forming abstractions that Dewey opposes. He simply warns that when we ‘selectively emphasize’, or choose at will what concepts and abstractions to use for reflection upon primary experience, that we remember the fact of the choice. We cannot take the abstraction, and the further abstractions/concepts it provides, as the ‘reality’ underlying the objects at hand. The only ‘antecedent’ entity we can make reference to is primary experience itself.

*Hume and Kant made good arguments that causation is not based on experience either. It isn't empirical. Take two billiards balls on a table. There are two objects on the table. One ball hits another. Hume says there are still only two objects on the table. We invent a third called causation. Which is a mental habit of man. It isn't something "out there", it is an inner psychology, not an outer phenomenon. 

And Kant said that all experience takes place within time and space, but time and space are not given by experience. Nobody perceives time or space. It isn't a stimulus. Yet they precede and order all things. 

It needs a shared life. A common experience. Language, biology, all make being human a subjective experience. What is a feral child? You wouldn't call them human. A human without culture is not even human, or conscious. Biology alone is not even enough.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@FearAndTrembling who wouldn't call a feral child a human? A person who doesn't regard a human as human - especially a child, for goodness' sake - isn't someone I would want to hang out with. 

(No idea what you're arguing here, I'm on my phone now and just scrolling and saw that statement and went.... noooope. A human is a human. For me, biology is enough. Humanity is enough. Life is enough  

I'm still amazed that the world can't do that. See any human as a human. I'm not saying they don't because they don't, but they unarguably should.


----------



## owlet

@alittlebear - Glad you recovered from the Fe/Fi doubt so quickly! I was going to try and make a post on it after I had dinner.



FearAndTrembling said:


> It needs a shared life. A common experience. Language, biology, all make being human a subjective experience. What is a feral child? You wouldn't call them human. A human without culture is not even human, or conscious. Biology alone is not even enough.


Just picking up on this last point: you would call them human, because humans are a species, but you may not call them a person. It depends how personhood is defined, if it's self-awareness or relational positioning, or something else. Different cultures think of personhood, or the self, differently, but a human is a human with or without a recognisable society (and I debate that a feral child would have no culture - everything has a culture, it may just not be directly comparable to yours or mine, there's even such massive disparities between human cultures, it's impossible to really, truly define it in any definite way).


----------



## Sygma

alittlebear said:


> It's just that a lot of girls are reading The Hunger Games and Divergent and Twilight and Harry Potter, and they're wanting to be special, to be chosen, to be these extraordinary things... And that's not how life works. It's an unrealistic expectation of reality to some extent. No one person can start a revolution, not in our time period. We cannot save the world on our own, and we will rarely if ever be out in any position where we can lead like that. What's more relevant to our world is coming to terms with our small place.


I've always thought they were readin these books for an idealisation of how to conciliate fantasy with reality. Fantasy of havin that impossible relationship where the male fight for her soulmate who is not accessible, so they'd belong to a greater mystical state of love where the souls just click and the words don't count.

It quite is the ultimate form of drama and there's nothing more marvelous than idealisin love for what it could be. Katniss and all the rest just do that, they want egality, humanity, love and fairness to rule above all else, they want to live the utopy ... so do the readers.

Its another projection of hope that they all secretely dream of. Its a deeper level of love, of care. And they all want that. What could be more beautiful than a love which is defyin all odds ? 

I take all these stories as an extremely romanticised Romeo & Juliette. It's always the same pattern, and always the same kind of situations. It began with the first underworld I think


----------



## Tad Cooper

Sygma said:


> I've always thought they were readin these books for an idealisation of how to conciliate fantasy with reality. Fantasy of havin that impossible relationship where the male fight for her soulmate who is not accessible, so they'd belong to a greater mystical state of love where the souls just click and the words don't count.
> 
> It quite is the ultimate form of drama and there's nothing more marvelous than idealisin love for what it could be. Katniss and all the rest just do that, they want egality, humanity, love and fairness to rule above all else, they want to live the utopy ... so do the readers.
> 
> Its another projection of hope that they all secretely dream of. Its a deeper level of love, of care. And they all want that. What could be more beautiful than a love which is defyin all odds ?
> 
> I take all these stories as an extremely romanticised Romeo & Juliette. It's always the same pattern, and always the same kind of situations. It began with the first underworld I think


An interpretation my sister told me of HG was that Katniss was suffering PTSD and so everything she saw and thought about was tinged with it. 
I personally think that love through high odds is okay, but prefer the style in which love is something normal. I find that more idyllic, that such feelings can exist without the need for drama etc, that its just something quiet and personal.


----------



## Tad Cooper

FearAndTrembling said:


> It needs a shared life. A common experience. Language, biology, all make being human a subjective experience. What is a feral child? You wouldn't call them human. A human without culture is not even human, or conscious. Biology alone is not even enough.


As a biology student: you're VERY wrong.
As a person: you're VERY wrong.


----------



## Sygma

> An interpretation my sister told me of HG was that Katniss was suffering PTSD


Oh, thats a good view actually since I was just takin in account the symbolic of the story in itself, but yes shellshock is quite the literal explanation regardin her fear to almost everything after the first game.



> I find that more idyllic, that such feelings can exist without the need for drama etc, that its just something quiet and personal.


Yeah its what I meant with the pattern : the need to right the wrong, to end the oppression, to just have a life where things would be balanced and somehow normal despise the current situation ... by almost always chosin the revolution path. The ideal beein projected on the current rejected reality because forces in control no longer give that feeling of safety.

But in HG its very specific since they use that particular emotional leverage to begin with. "its never really safe and you guys should thank us for takin care of what's left of mankind", rather than the two clans playin against each others. It can remind some of real life's historic events (most of the revolutions actually), and of course compassion toward the oppressed that are usually not in a state of beein able to do anything.


Hence that desire to feel entirely safe to access that synchronisation with a true peace of mind and self, rather than everyday's fear. I think it's what every human actually desire in one way or another and depending of our values, of our very own projections we try to get things right, and there's always or almost always that suffering which is creatin something greater. 

Can't really deal with these movies anymore even if the actual form is dark and adult because, they re too predictable and redundant. I'd take stories where choices are all that matter, where the line between good and evil is way blurrier, more akin to a yin and yang vision of things. Where nightmares clash against nightmares to create some light, that is never quite bright


----------



## Pressed Flowers

tine said:


> An interpretation my sister told me of HG was that Katniss was suffering PTSD and so everything she saw and thought about was tinged with it.
> I personally think that love through high odds is okay, but prefer the style in which love is something normal. I find that more idyllic, that such feelings can exist without the need for drama etc, that its just something quiet and personal.


I'm a bit confused by your first point. How is Katniss' trauma relevant? (I think I missed the point you were making, sorry. I can get lost.) 

Also in general @Sygma like... I think for me I read to... learn. And relate, yes, and feel inspired... But I like my stories to be on the ground. True, in a sense, that they are grounded in what could happen in the world. Grounded in that the characters are relatable. I want characters in impossible situations who deal with it. I want characters who are ordinary, but they find a way to shine. I mean, I know that's atypical, to want that from a story... but it's what I want nonetheless. Not to escape to a beautiful world. Not to mesh with a character who is truly powerful and incredible. To see a world like our own through new eyes so I can better understand this universe, to see a character who is destined to live in that rough world and be inspired by how they realistically deal with it.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I'm a bit confused by your first point. How is Katniss' trauma relevant? (I think I missed the point you were making, sorry. I can get lost.)
> 
> Also in general @_Sygma_ like... I think for me I read to... learn. And relate, yes, and feel inspired... But I like my stories to be on the ground. *True, in a sense, that they are grounded in what could happen in the world.* Grounded in that the characters are relatable. I want characters in impossible situations who deal with it. I want characters who are ordinary, but they find a way to shine. I mean, I know that's atypical, to want that from a story... but it's what I want nonetheless. Not to escape to a beautiful world. Not to mesh with a character who is truly powerful and incredible. To see a world like our own through new eyes so I can better understand this universe, to see a character who is destined to live in that rough world and be inspired by how they realistically deal with it.


Does a story really have to be grounded to say something about real-world experiences and struggles?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Does a story really have to be grounded to say something about real-world experiences and struggles?


No... But I'm trying to think of one that isn't. I can't think of one. 

A question on my Shakespeare exam was whether Shakespeare based his stories off the rules of our universe or if he made up his own rules of the universe and human nature. The question confused me. You can't make up your own rules to the universe. Anything you can possibly think of is based off something that already exists, is similar to some real natural concept. (I argue with my dad all the time about the fact that new ideas are impossible and are just an impressive recycling of old ideas.) 

So... I feel that way with most everything. No matte what you make up, it's based on natural principles. Somehow. 

But worlds like Wonderland and Oz make it difficult. The OUAT universe even. Because part of their universe is that it's not meant to make sense, it's not meant to model this world, it wasn't created with logic in mind but rather like anti-logic. 

Of course like I know other people like those worlds I find nonsensical, but they are ridiculous and I have a hard time making sense of them personally.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> In my defense a). I didn't know b). I think everything should be questioned especially when it's something as important and what is means to be a human. There were a different species of humans living among us thousands years go. Not millions. Thousands. So something separated our sentience and made us what we are. This also raises a questions of what other sentient life is like and how would we perceive each other. These topics are extremely often brought up in fiction.


Again, I do not blame you. I know that you did not know. 

To bring this to functions, I think that could be because you're a TP. Your Ti wants to know, wants to define, wants to really know what makes us human. I can't say that's bad; that's just how your mind works, and I think that's okay. But privately I just can't help but see the potentially catastrophic social impact behind anyone framing someone as inhuman, or setting a precedent with it (as with the feral child). So many minorities have been oppressed - fully oppressed, in every way really - because they were seen as inhuman. People of different ethnicities. Women. Disabled people, both with physical and mental disabilities. People of different religions from the dominant one. People of new cultures that those incoming did not understand and saw as "savage". Of course I do not expect someone like you, Greyhart, to use your theoretical rumination to hurt people, but I know that similar thoughts have soiled the lives, freedom, and safety of countless people. 

But... Again, Ti and Fe. You value Ti here in your look into it, I value Fe and perhaps a bit of immature Fi and Si in my feelings here. I see these arguments and think of how, for instance, dehumanizing a feral child could just as easily allow someone to dehumanize with the same logic people of the groups I mentioned above. It's certainly been done before, and I can assure you with great sadness that people are being hurt as we speak because their inhumanity has been justified.


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> I hold this as a case against JK being NP type. There's no way NP type could go without over-bloating their world GoT style.


 uh-oh. i'm in trouble.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Could also start a few pages before this, but after this the debate for Rowling's Si-dominance really begins http://personalitycafe.com/guess-type/78288-jk-rowlings-type-14.html

Also Arkigos says his take on her type in the last few pages

Edit: nah, I'll just quote him 


* *






arkigos said:


> @babblingbrook - Rowling doesn't use metaphor or symbolism with any deftness or skill at all. If that is the basis of typing her an N, then it is no basis at all. She is a crime novelist who also wrote Harry Potter, from which one may glean circumspect or indirect symbolism - most of which will be either invented or strengthened by the reader, especially if the reader is of the sort to search for an emphasize such things.
> 
> I think you will find that Rowling is not half so in touch with or emphasizing of such things as you might imagine.
> 
> I happen to be sitting right now at the computer of an INFJ friend. His life is symbols. His apartment is full of image-based symbolism. It is all profoundly aesthetic. One could see him as the other side of the coin from an SP type - both drawn to aesthetic and engagement, but for him the aesthetic is overwhelmed with this impressionism of something deeper. It abstracts the art, makes it more extreme and makes it feel like truer art, or something more deep. Still, though, it is incomprehensible and outside of language. It is very much 'image'. It is more confounding and subjective than our paltry efforts at 'symbolism'.
> 
> Si is the mythmaker, not Ni. It is Si that abstracts objects into a private world where what is real becomes grotesque and what is imagined (usually with an emphasis on the past) becomes weighty. Harry Potter shows this well. First, the Golden Past... a story that shows the present as a faded remnant of something that ONCE WAS. The whole purpose of the story is an attempt to reclaim that dreamlike past... and is accomplished by making the current generation of reflection of the last.
> 
> I mean, what is really the end of Harry Potter? They grow up, get married, and get jobs... and then stand at the same old train platform as before in this eternal warm perfect mythological stasis. It is screaming Si.
> 
> The only argument left, then, is that Si types are just too banal and humdrum to ever write something like that. Well, you are right, they don't. That is why there is one JK Rowling and not several million. Of course, once we consider it in those terms it becomes a false dichotomy in the mind. We think that because she is unlike most if not all SJs, she must be the other thing... and thus an NJ. Well, I think you'll find that all NJs are also not writers of her ilk. There is not a glut of Rowling-esque writers among the ranks of NJ. So, she is a rarity to all types.
> 
> She is just an excellent writer. She is not anything like what Jung (or I) would see as Ni-dom.
> 
> But, again, MBTI is a completely different system. By the standards of MBTI, she can only be called an INFJ - because INFJ in MBTI is a completely different thing. INFJ there means 1) Introverted, which she by all accounts is. 2) Preferring whimsical and imaginary things to practical reality, which by all accounts she does. 3) More inclined to prefer making judgments based on value or emotion, which I am sure she does. 4) Organized and timely, which she likely also is.
> 
> Nevertheless, she is very likely an Si and not Ni dom. Si being those who steep themselves in mythology and their private world, Ni being those who focus on (often aesthetic) images drawn from some shared unconscious (though the result is profoundly and even incomprehensibly subjective).


----------



## Greyhart

Ugh, yes, the global impact of that thinking. Fortunately majority doesn't think about it in this way. Personally, I wouldn't kill a chicken (I really had a rooster and kept him because I didn't want him to be killed) let alone a human. I think this discussion is important to see how we should _better_ ourselves as a species. And I don't mean become borgs or some dytopian class systems but in contrary, aspire to see what is the essence of the ethical side of being a human. I also believe that your own humanity shows through how you treat others regardless of their status, health, mental state et cetera. And as I said


> If we call murderers, people with severe mental disabilities and those in a vegetable state "human" then a child, who was not subjected to the society and thus grew different, can not be "not human".


For me, even from _purely logical_ side removed from ethics or empathy it does not makes sense. It however questions what the term means to _us_, what we hold as a core of our existence which is ultimately what I am pondering on.

Well, all this and frankly I don't think that feral kid got so feral because of lack of society. Pretty sure lack of care and medical support caused the damage to the brain which means it's a disabled human.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

This reminds me of something that seemed to really bug my ETJ friend. In Biology, you study the... what,seven principles of life? Seven principles of life. One of those principles is that you must have the ability to reproduce. My ETJ friend objected every single time we mentioned this principle. He would say, "My sister's ovaries don't work. Does this mean she's not living?" I used to smile and shake my head internally because he was so incredibly silly, of course the book did not mean that, the book was defining how we know a species itself is alive... but I won't say he doesn't have a point. The definitions we use, of what makes someone living, what makes someone human, what makes someone a person, they can be dangerous when put in the wrong context, when thought about by the wrong person.

I also find this hypocritical of me, but part of me _does_ judge the humanity of someone by how well they treat others. I do refer to it as inhumane if someone abuses another person. To me, "humanity" is something precious and beautiful. It makes us flawed, but it also makes us beautiful in our capacity to feel, love, help, dream. But all of that is shattered for me within a person if they demonstrate that they have no care for human life, any human life. At the end of the day I will bounce back and scold myself, slap my metaphorical face because of course they are human, it's dangerous to consider treating one otherwise, but I won't say I don't question the humanity of people who disregard the unquestionable humanity of others.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Could also start a few pages before this, but after this the debate for Rowling's Si-dominance really begins http://personalitycafe.com/guess-type/78288-jk-rowlings-type-14.html
> 
> Also Arkigos says his take on her type in the last few pages
> 
> Edit: nah, I'll just quote him


Bah, that's precisely what I am talking about! All you need to know is to see interview with her. She is so obviously putting her Si "mythology" into her work like it's not even funny. One could use her as an example of an artist ISFJ to all people who still think Si means mundane.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> This reminds me of something that seemed to really bug my ETJ friend. In Biology, you study the... what,seven principles of life? Seven principles of life. One of those principles is that you must have the ability to reproduce. My ETJ friend objected every single time we mentioned this principle. He would say, *"My sister's ovaries don't work. Does this mean she's not living?"* I used to smile and shake my head internally because he was so incredibly silly, of course the book did not mean that, the book was defining how we know a species itself is alive... but I won't say he doesn't have a point. The definitions we use, of what makes someone living, what makes someone human, what makes someone a person, they can be dangerous when put in the wrong context, when thought about by the wrong person.


Gotta love when the same argument is used against same sex marriage. Das right people. Don't or can't have kids? No _'till death do us apart_ for you.

As for wrong person in wrong context, to be honest I believe that if someone is out for to do bad they will use anything to justify their hate. Like with religion. Is Christianity hateful on itself? No. Do hateful people distort it to feel empowered in their hate? Yes.

The way you Te dom friend interpreted it is funny, though. Exactly how my ENTJ cousin does it. Actually, even my INFP does very literal interpretations of some concepts.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I also find this hypocritical of me, but part of me _does_ judge the humanity of someone by how well they treat others. I do refer to it as inhumane if someone abuses another person. *To me, "humanity" is something precious and beautiful. It makes us flawed, but it also makes us beautiful in our capacity to feel, love, help, dream. But all of that is shattered for me within a person if they demonstrate that they have no care for human life, any human life.* At the end of the day I will bounce back and scold myself, slap my metaphorical face because of course they are human, it's dangerous to consider treating one otherwise, but I won't say I don't question the humanity of people who disregard the unquestionable humanity of others.


I don't think it is hypocritical, personally. But I understand how _you_ wish to treat even the lowest of our species as human. I think it says more about you than them, though. I also greatly admire that capacity. What you refer to as "humanity" is what I meant when talking about how we should discuss being human. There's more to it than just being a meat and bones. Ethical standards like those should be universally accepted truths.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> This reminds me of something that seemed to really bug my ETJ friend. In Biology, you study the... what,seven principles of life? Seven principles of life. One of those principles is that you must have the ability to reproduce. My ETJ friend objected every single time we mentioned this principle. He would say, "My sister's ovaries don't work. Does this mean she's not living?" I used to smile and shake my head internally because he was so incredibly silly, of course the book did not mean that, the book was defining how we know a species itself is alive... but I won't say he doesn't have a point. The definitions we use, of what makes someone living, what makes someone human, what makes someone a person, they can be dangerous when put in the wrong context, when thought about by the wrong person.
> 
> I also find this hypocritical of me, but part of me _does_ judge the humanity of someone by how well they treat others. I do refer to it as inhumane if someone abuses another person. To me, "humanity" is something precious and beautiful. It makes us flawed, but it also makes us beautiful in our capacity to feel, love, help, dream. But all of that is shattered for me within a person if they demonstrate that they have no care for human life, any human life. At the end of the day I will bounce back and scold myself, slap my metaphorical face because of course they are human, it's dangerous to consider treating one otherwise, but I won't say I don't question the humanity of people who disregard the unquestionable humanity of others.


Why are definitions so important? I know I shouldn't talk, but this is kind of a strawman argument I'm using, why are we so eager to be defined by something and define others, rather than just being? As for judging others, I never see the point of that, what, if someone kills a family, are they immediately less human? At the end of the day, our entire world is simply perspectives piled on upon each other, and if I came across a person like that, I would try to talk to them about it, it'd be interesting. For me, humanity is simply this, we are anti-villains, we are selfish and base, intent on maintaining the sheep mentality that we should be herded in whichever direction we want without bothering to critique. *However*, that makes the remarkable exceptions shine beyond measure. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Gotta love when the same argument is used against same sex marriage. Das right people. Don't or can't have kids? No _'till death do us apart_ for you.
> 
> As for wrong person in wrong context, to be honest I believe that if someone is out for to do bad they will use anything to justify their hate. Like with religion. Is Christianity hateful on itself? No. Do hateful people distort it to feel empowered in their hate? Yes.
> 
> The way you Te dom friend interpreted it is funny, though. Exactly how my ENTJ cousin does it. Actually, even my INFP does very literal interpretations of some concepts.


Agreed about how people use concepts - sadly sometimes concepts that I consider _perfect_, like Christianity - to justify their cruelty. I started watching the two Borgia shows on Netflix, but ultimately I had to put it on the back burner. Of course I know that popes in the past have completely disregarded true Christianity - I just got out of a Medieval History class, of course I know that - but watching them do it so openly, use the faith solely to advance sir own interests by outwardly saying "I'm doing what God wants".... Ugh. The people on the show weren't even bad people, but seeing such blatant display of Christian hypocrisy at a large level seemed too relevant to me. 

Also, yep. I was going to list LGBT individuals under my list of oppressed people, but I couldn't think of an argument I had seen where their opponents directly called them inhuman. Obviously homophobic and transphobic people do see them as inhuman, but I've yet to come across an argument that went about regarding them directly as inhuman. (As opposed to all the groups above, which sadly I have read at least one or two articles that directly addressed their inhumanity. Sigh. Silly humans.) 

I ran into my sister's Te-dominance the other night. It was just like that thread in Cognitive Functions forum about definition. I was helping her with her science homework, and trying to define the terms to her in a way she could understand, especially because part of her assignment was to define the terms in her own words. I tried so many things for homeostasis. "Internal balance," "the regulation of internal balance," "the maintenance of an internal balance," "the regulation of internal balance which allows living things to maintain life".. I tried so many things. And I got abstract too, trying to explain balance, what it meant, how the heart tries to balance, how breathing helps us balance, how everything helps us balance... Sweet girl just did not get it. She wanted a concrete definition that made sense to her, and my explanations were not making sense to her. And she would not move on to the other definitions until she had mastered that one.


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Why are definitions so important? I know I shouldn't talk, but this is kind of a strawman argument I'm using, why are we so eager to be defined by something and define others, rather than just being? As for judging others, I never see the point of that, what, *if someone kills a family, are they immediately less human*? At the end of the day, our entire world is simply perspectives piled on upon each other, and if I came across a person like that, I would try to talk to them about it, it'd be interesting. For me, humanity is simply this, we are anti-villains, we are selfish and base, intent on maintaining the sheep mentality that we should be herded in whichever direction we want without bothering to critique. *However*, that makes the remarkable exceptions shine beyond measure. :happy:


Subjectively? Yes. And this is why a definition is important. There's a biology and there's high ideal that I see as what we should aspire too.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Why are definitions so important? I know I shouldn't talk, but this is kind of a strawman argument I'm using, why are we so eager to be defined by something and define others, rather than just being? As for judging others, I never see the point of that, what, if someone kills a family, are they immediately less human? At the end of the day, our entire world is simply perspectives piled on upon each other, and if I came across a person like that, I would try to talk to them about it, it'd be interesting. For me, humanity is simply this, we are anti-villains, we are selfish and base, intent on maintaining the sheep mentality that we should be herded in whichever direction we want without bothering to critique. *However*, that makes the remarkable exceptions shine beyond measure. :happy:


You are speaking like my ETJ friend! He also considers humanity "sheeple". He does not mean the term so kindly, but that is his (more negative, for him) view of humanity as well. 

Are you sure you use Fi/Te? Because I think that we've reached a Ti vs Te difference here. To you, definitions don't matter as much, but to @Greyhart (and to some extent, me, but obviously not as much) definitions are much more important, and necessary to ponder.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> Subjectively? Yes. And this is why a definition is important. There's a biology and there's high ideal that I see as what we should aspire too.


Well, that's your own morality, I can't begrudge you of that. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Agreed about how people use concepts - sadly sometimes concepts that I consider _perfect_, like Christianity - to justify their cruelty. I started watching the two Borgia shows on Netflix, but ultimately I had to put it on the back burner. Of course I know that popes in the past have completely disregarded true Christianity - I just got out of a Medieval History class, of course I know that - but watching them do it so openly, use the faith solely to advance sir own interests by outwardly saying "I'm doing what God wants".... Ugh. The people on the show weren't even bad people, but seeing such blatant display of Christian hypocrisy at a large level seemed too relevant to me.


This is currently happening as well. And not in third world Middle Eastern country. This also works towards many beginning to hate on religion as a whole. I was there too, by the way. As a teen I couldn't bypass negative impact to see importance to the individuals.



> Also, yep. I was going to list LGBT individuals under my list of oppressed people, but I couldn't think of an argument I had seen where their opponents directly called them inhuman. Obviously homophobic and transphobic people do see them as inhuman, but I've yet to come across an argument that went about regarding them directly as inhuman. (As opposed to all the groups above, which sadly I have read at least one or two articles that directly addressed their inhumanity. Sigh. Silly humans.)


Pretty sure "inhuman" was used towards them too but I brought it up just because of the quote of your friend. It reminded me of how the same thinking used in conjecture with defying someone their rights.



> I ran into my sister's Te-dominance the other night. It was just like that thread in Cognitive Functions forum about definition. I was helping her with her science homework, and trying to define the terms to her in a way she could understand, especially because part of her assignment was to define the terms in her own words. I tried so many things for homeostasis. "Internal balance," "the regulation of internal balance," "the maintenance of an internal balance," "the regulation of internal balance which allows living things to maintain life".. I tried so many things. And I got abstract too, trying to explain balance, what it meant, how the heart tries to balance, how breathing helps us balance, how everything helps us balance... Sweet girl just did not get it. She wanted a concrete definition that made sense to her, and my explanations were not making sense to her. And she would not move on to the other definitions until she had mastered that one.


My cousin does it with my theories. I ramble ramble and he just filters out everything, leaves some bones and states it. Like "Why didn't you just say so?". No, you don't understand. You just killed the whole point of it. \(T_T)/


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> You are speaking like my ETJ friend! He also considers humanity "sheeple". He does not mean the term so kindly, but that is his (more negative, for him) view of humanity as well.
> 
> Are you sure you use Fi/Te? Because I think that we've reached a Ti vs Te difference here. To you, definitions don't matter as much, but to @Greyhart (and to some extent, me, but obviously not as much) definitions are much more important, and necessary to ponder.


Heh, sheep mentality was just the best phrase to describe... what was it again, the fear that comes from toppling social statuses. :laughing:

*OH NOES, NOT THIS AGAIN.* Nah, I kid, I kid, I did kind of say it was a strawman, as I don't really have a self identity myself, I just find the perspectives of "crazy" people an interesting experience, what is it like to kill for a cause, to be so blindly devoted to one? Or just snap one day and find your hands stained with blood? It's quite unique. :happy: It's more a case of being fascinated by something you'll never be able to do, rather than admiration.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> You are speaking like my ETJ friend! He also considers humanity "sheeple". He does not mean the term so kindly, but that is his (more negative, for him) view of humanity as well.
> 
> Are you sure you use Fi/Te? Because I think that we've reached a Ti vs Te difference here. To you, definitions don't matter as much, but to @Greyhart (and to some extent, me, but obviously not as much) definitions are much more important, and necessary to ponder.


I think you guys are hung on a "definition" word.  I don't mean it as a _rigid point-by-point list_ but rather as a _mailable finely-tuned idea_. The concept, ideal, theory... I don't have a good word for it. _Meaning._ Yes, _meaning_. _Meaning_ isn't something that can always be summarized by simple words. Look at Jung's work. He is trying to "define" what he sees, to put it into words for others to understand but it doesn't always come out coherent because there are no precisely defined existing terms for that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I don't think it is hypocritical, personally. But I understand how _you_ wish to treat even the lowest of our species as human. I think it says more about you than them, though. I also greatly admire that capacity. What you refer to as "humanity" is what I meant when talking about how we should discuss being human. There's more to it than just being a meat and bones. Ethical standards like those should be universally accepted truths.


For me, it's hypocritical on a few levels. For one, I'm a pretty big advocate of treating those with Anti-Social Personality Disorder - those who society very unkindly and inappropriately refers to as "sociopaths" and "psychopaths" - as completely human, and one of the things about the disorder to my understanding is that they have a hard time employing empathy, and can very much see other people as inhuman and act harmfully on that personal perspective. Yet I will be more inclined to regard those who mistreat people with ASPD and argue that they are inhuman, that they should be locked up or even killed, as those truly lacking humanity. They have the full capacity for empathy (or so they believe), and yet they decide to strip someone of their humanity. And yet that's what I do to them in my own mind? There is some light justification for my decision, but it is light and ultimately hypocritical. 

Also, there comes the question of... what moral boundaries would one have to break to be considered inhuman? How would one deidde what made one inhuman? I don't think any of us can judge that (do though of course we do, I do, society obviously does) fairly. 

It reminds me of _The Scarlet Letter_. Of course she didn't kill anyone, or hurt anyone knowingly really, but society still regarded Hester Prynne (my true fictional hero, bless her nonexistent soul) as inhuman. She had broken the law! The moral code! She doesn't deserve humanity anymore, doesn't deserve our sympathy, doesn't deserve kindness! Her daughter doesn't even deserve those things! I would hate to get caught in that detrimental hypocrisy, where it could get so caught up in my own personally moralistic definitions of what made someone lose their humanity and become inhuman myself in denying their undeniable humanity to them. Of course I wouldn't do it to someone for something like adultery, but even if one were to replace Hester Prynne's opening scenario before the two in her walk of shame with someone who had actively hurt people, who had done so knowingly, who was in essence a Hitler-like figure... I would be wrong to deny them their humanity. They still would feel. They still would hurt. They still would... well, be human. But by my standards of humanity and what separates one as human and inhuman, I would be inclined to cancel out their humanity. Which, for me personally, could be very dangerous. 

I also think... According to my view of humanity, just theoretically, one would lose their humanity when they intruded on the humanity of others. So like someone who... I'll use Javert from _Les Miserables_. I don't know if he regarded anyone's humanity as true, but he certainly saw Jean Valjean as inhuman, and he definitely did his best to make Valjean's life hell as a result. By my definition, I would not regard Javert as human. 

But this is ridiculous. We are not all Javert, but part of being flawed and human means that we are not always kind to others. No one can say they truly act out of complete love (except, in my Christian approach, Jesus). I mean, I've fallen guilty to treating someone as inhuman, or personally regarding them as such. Until a few years ago, I had some subconsciously racist beliefs about what made a society good, and moral standards, that crap. I still might - and probably do - have some problematic beliefs regarding women and other cultures. I used to say some very homophobic things as a child, not knowing that one of my close friends was gay and my very best friend was actually transgender. And I have definitely lost sight of people's humanity countless times, unfortunately, when I see them as annoying and do not give them my full attention, when I laugh at them, when I gossip about them. Not everyone starts out racist, sexist, and homophobic like me, but I do think (from a Christian standpoint) that we are all guilty of forgetting people's humanity. But I wouldn't say we are all inhuman for having these moral problems? To me, that's part of what makes us human. And I don't know what separates me from the person who would abuse someone with ASPD simply because they have the condition. I don't know where the barrier is that would make me go, "Oh, I'm human because I treat people like humans and and you're inhumane because you treat humans like they are not humans." That's false. Most everyone treats people with humanity to some extent (especially those they love), and I definitely don't treat people like people all the time as I should. I mean, there is definitely some identifiable difference between me and people who are okay with abusing / mistreating someone who is by species human, but I'm not sure I even want to find that difference lest I begin to dehumanize them and find myself within that Other-defined category.


----------



## Greyhart

Oh, no. When quoting the "hypocrisy" line I thought about something like rape or murder. Not standards of appropriateness. That's what I meant by lowliest individuals of our species. There's a discussion about death penalty to be had there but that's the one where I already reached my conclusion and passed to the next topic. For the record, although I am not interested in writing up a huge text on why and how, I am against the death penalty.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Oh, no. When quoting the "hypocrisy" line I thought about something like rape or murder. Not standards of appropriateness.


On, okay. Ignore my long ramble then ^^

Oh, and I agree with you about the death penalty. I used to follow a Christian blogger, and she had a lot of beliefs I agreed with... but at one point she said that she wasn't sure what to think from a Christian standpoint on the death penalty. I couldn't understand that at all. I think the Gospel makes it pretty clear that we are not fit to pass judgment on anyone, and I'm pretty sure that taking someone's life into our own hands would count as judgment. Remove someone who keeps intentionally hurting others from society, put them in jail (under humane conditions, which of course is another issue entirely), protect people... But don't kill them. My goodness, don't kill them. 

That's a bit Christian, but even on a human level I cannot fathom the death penalty. It's so terrible. I heard my parents discussing the Boston Bomber's sentencing yesterday and I just had to keep silent.


----------



## Greyhart

I really need to start finishing my line of thoughts before pressing "post". :dry:


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> That's awful.
> 
> I like humans less than animals, for the most part. Animals can't help themselves. People ought to know better.


Yeah, I have a huge soft spot for animals. I once went out in a thunderstorm to grab a kitten hiding in a bush. I can't just walk by without doing anything.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Killing animals... Not exactly on that train of thought, but does anyone here have opinions about hunting? I grew up with my big brother cousin loving to hunt... I was upset by it when I was little, and pointedly read my copy of _Bambi_ underneath the two deer heads in my ex-uncle's house, but eventually I came to terms with it. I was so surprised when my writing class saw hunting as a sign of "evil". Someone in a story shot a bird and they saw this as a mark of his cruelty but I had to explain that that's what hunters _do_... It's funny how so many of them had ethical stances against hunting when they hadn't actually been around hunters. It's easy to be against something you have zero experience with.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Killing animals... Not exactly on that train of thought, but does anyone here have opinions about hunting? I grew up with my big brother cousin loving to hunt... I was upset by it when I was little, and pointedly read my copy of _Bambi_ underneath the two deer heads in my ex-uncle's house, but eventually I came to terms with it. I was so surprised when my writing class saw hunting as a sign of "evil". Someone in a story shot a bird and they saw this as a mark of his cruelty but I had to explain that that's what hunters _do_... It's funny how so many of them had ethical stances against hunting when they hadn't actually been around hunters. It's easy to be against something you have zero experience with.


Don't support it at all unless it has a practical purpose. Like food.


----------



## Greyhart

If you don't need to hunt to eat I don't see how enjoying killing something can be a positive quality.


----------



## IraDove

Lol err hi guys, I feel like I'm randomly invading the conversation at the ~100 pg mark ._. ahaha 
@Greyhart I totally agree with you that he has no Ne, Se is very eminent though, he doesn't overlay reality at all like the way you do, as far as I know.
@Barakiel oh pls. I wish you had Fe but you just don't. At least not as a dominant or auxiliary function anyways  at the most, ill concede that it's possible you have Fi>Te (so an SFP of sorts); however you kinda don't have ANY of the convictions or inner passion of an Fi to back it up imo. You're rather detached from situations you come across or hear about in a moralistic or subjective sense (i.e. most of your posts) and choose to approach those issues from a perspective that focuses more on the logic behind their actions, like whether they executed their actions in a clever or dumb fashion...if that makes sense?  I'd still honestly judge you as a Ti type. Soz not soz.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Killing animals... Not exactly on that train of thought, but does anyone here have opinions about hunting? I grew up with my big brother cousin loving to hunt... I was upset by it when I was little, and pointedly read my copy of _Bambi_ underneath the two deer heads in my ex-uncle's house, but eventually I came to terms with it. I was so surprised when my writing class saw hunting as a sign of "evil". Someone in a story shot a bird and they saw this as a mark of his cruelty but I had to explain that that's what hunters _do_... It's funny how so many of them had ethical stances against hunting when they hadn't actually been around hunters. It's easy to be against something you have zero experience with.


I don't think it's right to prohibit people from hunting for sport, and as a country girl, I understand the need to "thin the herd," but I think it's inhumane and I would never do it. I also take any chance I get to "moralize" about it. ("What did that deer ever do to you?")


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Killing animals... Not exactly on that train of thought, but does anyone here have opinions about hunting? I grew up with my big brother cousin loving to hunt... I was upset by it when I was little, and pointedly read my copy of _Bambi_ underneath the two deer heads in my ex-uncle's house, but eventually I came to terms with it. I was so surprised when my writing class saw hunting as a sign of "evil". Someone in a story shot a bird and they saw this as a mark of his cruelty but I had to explain that that's what hunters _do_... It's funny how so many of them had ethical stances against hunting when they hadn't actually been around hunters. It's easy to be against something you have zero experience with.


I've never hunted myself, but I do have to question it since you can get food other ways. Killing is different to fighting for me, if you want to brawl with a bear, go for it, I might join in. But calling hunting a sport is kind of exaggerating it, since you're not really doing much. :dry:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

An... That's the thing though. All the hunters I know eat what they kill. They pack it up and keep it in the freezer until it runs out (and their prize winning cow replaces it, ha). Of course some people just do it purely for sport, but all the hunters I know are very responsible with their catches. (Although I agree with @angelcat that I could never do it myself. Never in a million years, unless someone was starving. I want to learn how to be good at shooting so I can prove my worth to them or w/e - ex-uncle was surprised at my aim when I shot a can at ten - and I used to daydream a little about going on a hunting expedition with them and proving how "tough" I was... but in reality I could never do it. I would like to experience a hunting trip, but I couldn't kill the poor thing myself.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Back to Hunger Games quickly - (I'm about to leave but I want to respond to this before it gets too buried) 

I dislike Katniss, but I _cannot stand_ Gale. * [SPOILERS FOR MOCKINGJAY PART 2]* He wanted to bomb District 2. District 2, with all those innocent people. I find that unforgivable. I don't think he meant to do what happened to Prim, but he was adamant about taking the lives of everyone in District 2. What an absolute jerk. I haven't read that part for a while now, but I remember really being set off by it. * [Spoiler end] *

As for Peeta. Love him. In the movie he somehow gets annoying, and in the third book he gets on my nerves (for obvious and shallow reasons on my part), but in general I love how kind he is, how he's so liking to help people, how he has such a good heart. Gah. Peeta's awesome. 

In regards to Graceling, @shinynotshiny, I would be interested in how I would take to that feminist perspective as well. I'm trying to open my mind to feminism (really!) but it is a social justice concept I struggle with. (Intersectional feminism is good... white girls complaining about dress code makes me roll my eyes. Sigh. But maybe that's not a light topic we should discuss.) 

Also @angelcat I do have a slight point towards Fe in Katniss, but I'll explain it on the thread.


----------



## 68097

I don't think I could kill something even if I were starving. 

Then again, I'm a wannabe vegan prohibited (for the moment) from being one, due to it making life difficult for everyone around me. I just need to bite the bullet and do it, because I have a feeling the time will NEVER be perfect to start.


----------



## Greyhart

IraDove said:


> Lol err hi guys, I feel like I'm randomly invading the conversation at the ~100 pg mark ._. ahaha
> 
> @Greyhart I totally agree with you that he has no Ne, Se is very eminent though, he doesn't overlay reality at all like the way you do, as far as I know.
> 
> @Barakiel oh pls. I wish you had Fe but you just don't. At least not as a dominant or auxiliary function anyways  at the most, ill concede that it's possible you have Fi>Te (so an SFP of sorts); however you kinda don't have ANY of the convictions or inner passion of an Fi to back it up imo. You're rather detached from situations you come across or hear about in a moralistic or subjective sense (i.e. most of your posts) and choose to approach those issues from a perspective that focuses more on the logic behind their actions, like whether they executed their actions in a clever or dumb fashion...if that makes sense?  I'd still honestly judge you as a Ti type. Soz not soz.


Ah, yes ISTP is possible! For me Ti is _so_ tied with Ne they are like follicly conjoined twins so I have a trouble tearing Ti away to apply to Se.


----------



## Barakiel

IraDove said:


> Lol err hi guys, I feel like I'm randomly invading the conversation at the ~100 pg mark ._. ahaha


Oh plz, you're really not. Plus, people hijack these threads all the bloody time, so you're fine. :laughing:



IraDove said:


> @Barakiel oh pls. I wish you had Fe but you just don't. At least not as a dominant or auxiliary function anyways  at the most, ill concede that it's possible you have Fi>Te (so an SFP of sorts); however you kinda don't have ANY of the convictions or inner passion of an Fi to back it up imo. You're rather detached from situations you come across or hear about in a moralistic or subjective sense (i.e. most of your posts) and choose to approach those issues from a perspective that focuses more on the logic behind their actions, like whether they executed their actions in a clever or dumb fashion...if that makes sense?  I'd still honestly judge you as a Ti type. Soz not soz.


Fair enough, I can see what you mean, but I'll let others see what fruit this discussion brings, since I don't really have a good grasp of the functions, especially when it comes to me, since bias abounds. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I don't think I could kill something even if I were starving.
> 
> Then again, I'm a wannabe vegan prohibited (for the moment) from being one, due to it making life difficult for everyone around me. I just need to bite the bullet and do it, because I have a feeling the time will NEVER be perfect to start.


I'm known in my family for saying at age six, "I'm going to be a vegetarian... right after I eat this hot dog." 

I was actually a vegetarian for four solid years. My cousin - same one that hunted - had to raise his cow for the fair, and... nope. I was not going to eat that lovely animal, that cow who wasn't particularly kind to me but who had the sweetest brown eyes... who I had known, who I had petted, who I had helped change the stall of. I'm actually probably going to be a vegetarian again soon - the vegans at my school gave me a pamphlet and broke my heart - but as a college student with enough health problems at the moment I don't know if being even a vegetarian would be too feasible for me right now. 

I'm starting to open my eyes to animal cruelty in food production though. I've been giving it a blind eye for so long, but now I've got to open them and realize that poor animals endure such crap. My uncle kept his cows very well, and I got sad when they died. The cows that go into most my meat don't even have a life half that nice.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> I don't think I could kill something even if I were starving.
> 
> Then again, I'm a wannabe vegan prohibited (for the moment) from being one, due to it making life difficult for everyone around me. I just need to bite the bullet and do it, because I have a feeling the time will NEVER be perfect to start.


I'd probably go for fishing in a survival situation. With the bow. I've never gone fishing or used a bow but in my mind I have it all planned.

I dislike meat and want any meat I have to eat to be as far removed from meat as I can. Like sausages. Here in sausages I'm pretty sure whatever I am eating it's closer to a toilet paper and a sawdust than a meat. You know what's the best? APPLES. And broccoli. So expensive, though.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I'm known in my family for saying at age six, "I'm going to be a vegetarian... right after I eat this hot dog."
> 
> I was actually a vegetarian for four solid years. My cousin - same one that hunted - had to raise his cow for the fair, and... nope. I was not going to eat that lovely animal, that cow who wasn't particularly kind to me but who had the sweetest brown eyes... who I had known, who I had petted, who I had helped change the stall of. I'm actually probably going to be a vegetarian again soon - the vegans at my school gave me a pamphlet and broke my heart - but as a college student with enough health problems at the moment I don't know if being even a vegetarian would be too feasible for me right now.
> 
> I'm starting to open my eyes to animal cruelty in food production though. I've been giving it a blind eye for so long, but now I've got to open them and realize that poor animals endure such crap. My uncle kept his cows very well, and I got sad when they died. The cows that go into most my meat don't even have a life half that nice.


My family had pets since before I was born. Mother loves animals like crazy. So I grew the same too. I wanted to be a zoologist for the longest time. Or veterinarian later. Anyway my mother's dream is to have a cow. She just loves them so much.

As for vegetarian, I don't know. Since I've moved from my parents I eat anything that could be meaty maybe like once a month at best, and my liver and pancreas seem to be doing better than ever. I do drink milk and eat cheese, though. You could eat eggs also. I don't because allergic =_=


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> My family had pets since before I was born. Mother loves animals like crazy. So I grew the same too. I wanted to be a zoologist for the longest time. Or veterinarian later. Anyway my mother's dream is to have a cow. She just loves them so much.
> 
> As for vegetarian, I don't know. Since I've moved from my parents I eat anything that could be meaty maybe like once a month at best, and my liver and pancreas seem to be doing better than ever. I do drink milk and eat cheese, though. You could eat eggs also. I don't because allergic =_=


Eggs... I like them, but when I was little I was convinced they were aborted baby chicks. I have a slight problem with them now because my grandfather happened to crack one with a developed chick inside and... ick, but in general I like eggs. 

That's another thing though. I don't want my diet to be a burden on my family again. At age 12 I didn't realize how being a vegetarian affected everyone else, but now I see that it did. My grandfather stopped making his lovely beef chop suey and still hasn't continued it, even though I eat meat now. (Gosh, I miss that chop suey.) And whenever I would go to my friends' homes their sweet parents were always so kind and tiptoed around my diet by serving something appropriate for me. I'm not going to do _that_ again. I want animals not to die, but it's not worth discomforting everyone around me. Hopefully being able to pick my own diet will make this endeavor more feasible, when I'm making my own meals and buying my own food. 

But about pets, same. My grandmother actually used to breed dogs. I have three pets now. My whole family has a pet, and we've had a variety of them too (extended family wise)... hermit crabs, turtles, wild turtles, wet turtles, pigs (not for eating, although we had pigs for eating too), chickens (the last one got eaten by a fox, poor thing), squirrels... now we've settled for each having a family dog (or two), but we've had our share of interesting animals as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also, just as a general statement - please, please feel free to have typing discussions here. I think that people can uncover another person's type through discussion, and I hope understanding of the functions can be displayed through conversation here. We are in the typing forum, after all. While of course you still should not offer unsolicited typing thoughts towards someone, if they are interested in hearing opinions of their type please feel free to politely discuss the matter with them. (I may not respond, because really I'm not good at deciding where someone stands type-wise, but please know I am completely okay with and even encourage that discussion, as long as it is not unkind.)


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Eggs... I like them, but when I was little I was convinced they were aborted baby chicks. I have a slight problem with them now because my grandfather happened to crack one with a developed chick inside and... ick, but in general I like eggs.


I like fried eggs taste but I do too think about chicken menstruation >_> Well, and allergy makes it so I get rash on my hands if I eat more than a few a week. So I just don't. 



> That's another thing though. I don't want my diet to be a burden on my family again. At age 12 I didn't realize how being a vegetarian affected everyone else, but now I see that it did. My grandfather stopped making his lovely beef chop suey and still hasn't continued it, even though I eat meat now. (Gosh, I miss that chop suey.) And whenever I would go to my friends' homes their sweet parents were always so kind and tiptoed around my diet by serving something appropriate for me. I'm not going to do _that_ again. I want animals not to die, but it's not worth discomforting everyone around me. Hopefully being able to pick my own diet will make this endeavor more feasible, when I'm making my own meals and buying my own food.


Ah, I was always a supremely picky eater and ate separately from my parents. And at friends' house... I don't know, there's always something non-meaty or non-fishy for me to eat. Potatoes. The are always potatoes.



> But about pets, same. My grandmother actually used to breed dogs. I have three pets now. My whole family has a pet, and we've had a variety of them too (extended family wise)... hermit crabs, turtles, wild turtles, wet turtles, pigs (not for eating, although we had pigs for eating too), chickens (the last one got eaten by a fox, poor thing), squirrels... now we've settled for each having a family dog (or two), but we've had our share of interesting animals as well.


Left my cat, dog and jackdaw are at parent's house.  Didn't see them in a few months. It's probably like years for them. Maybe they don't remember me anymore.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That's another thing though. I don't want my diet to be a burden on my family again. At age 12 I didn't realize how being a vegetarian affected everyone else, but now I see that it did. My grandfather stopped making his lovely beef chop suey and still hasn't continued it, even though I eat meat now. (Gosh, I miss that chop suey.) And whenever I would go to my friends' homes their sweet parents were always so kind and tiptoed around my diet by serving something appropriate for me. I'm not going to do _that_ again. *I want animals not to die, but it's not worth discomforting everyone around me.* *Hopefully being able to pick my own diet will make this endeavor more feasible, when I'm making my own meals and buying my own food. *


Animal death on one side... family discomfort on the other side...



Yeah, I've been vegetarian for eight years and the most practical thing to do is cook for yourself. You don't need someone else sacrificing their chop suey for the family when you can create your meal on the side. You run into complications when you can't buy the foods you want or need, and I agree it makes going out a bit difficult, but you adjust to it. I actually met someone who said they would never date a vegetarian because they liked going out to dinner too much. It's almost become like a litmus test for me (along with other issues I care about). Oh, this person doesn't respect my point of view? Next.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Back to Hunger Games quickly - (I'm about to leave but I want to respond to this before it gets too buried)
> 
> I dislike Katniss, but I _cannot stand_ Gale. * [SPOILERS FOR MOCKINGJAY PART 2]* He wanted to bomb District 2. District 2, with all those innocent people. I find that unforgivable. I don't think he meant to do what happened to Prim, but he was adamant about taking the lives of everyone in District 2. What an absolute jerk. I haven't read that part for a while now, but I remember really being set off by it. * [Spoiler end] *


Fe-dom, ladies and gentlemen.

Though in fairness, my Enneagram 2 ISFJ BFF doesn't like Gale either, for the same reason. Maybe it's the 6 in me, but I can see his reasoning. 



> As for Peeta. Love him. In the movie he somehow gets annoying, and in the third book he gets on my nerves (for obvious and shallow reasons on my part), but in general I love how kind he is, how he's so liking to help people, how he has such a good heart. Gah. Peeta's awesome.


My response, reading it, was: WHAT A SAP.

Again, not my BFF's reaction. She adores Peeta.

(I'm not exactly the sappy/romantic type. It's tragic... according to some. I just laugh and watch "The Godfather" again.)



> I'm trying to open my mind to feminism (really!) but it is a social justice concept I struggle with. (Intersectional feminism is good... white girls complaining about dress code makes me roll my eyes. Sigh. But maybe that's not a light topic we should discuss.)


Why? You afraid it'll derail the thread?


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Also, just as a general statement - please, please feel free to have typing discussions here. I think that people can uncover another person's type through discussion, and I hope understanding of the functions can be displayed through conversation here. We are in the typing forum, after all. While of course you still should not offer unsolicited typing thoughts towards someone, if they are interested in hearing opinions of their type please feel free to politely discuss the matter with them. (I may not respond, because really I'm not good at deciding where someone stands type-wise, but please know I am completely okay with and even encourage that discussion, as long as it is not unkind.)


Heh, I guess having permission from the person whose thread we're derailing goes a long way to making it acceptable. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Animal death on one side... family discomfort on the other side...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've been vegetarian for eight years and the most practical thing to do is cook for yourself. You don't need someone else sacrificing their chop suey for the family when you can create your meal on the side. You run into complications when you can't buy the foods you want or need, and I agree it makes going out a bit difficult, but you adjust to it. I actually met someone who said they would never date a vegetarian because they liked going out to dinner too much. It's almost become like a litmus test for me (along with other issues I care about). Oh, this person doesn't respect my point of view? Next.


In my defense, I was twelve when I started my vegetarian plight. Perhaps I was able to make my own food then, but I never considered it. My mom would have never let me use the stove (or even the microwave), and besides, the kitchen is my grandfather's. 

And if I eat the meat with my friends because I don't want to insult them, I don't think that does too much harm. It's a small piece. I would feel bad, but it's not worth making a scene over. (Not that you would make a scene over it - I'm just explaining my rationale behind choosing not to discomfort people with my vegetarian presence. It's especially hard when you live in the South and you're some sort of rebellious, counterculture spectacle if you decide not to eat the meat your family provides.)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> In my defense, I was twelve when I started my vegetarian plight. Perhaps I was able to make my own food then, but I never considered it. My mom would have never let me use the stove (or even the microwave), and besides, the kitchen is my grandfather's.
> 
> And if I eat the meat with my friends because I don't want to insult them, I don't think that does too much harm. It's a small piece. I would feel bad, but it's not worth making a scene over. (Not that you would make a scene over it - I'm just explaining my rationale behind choosing not to discomfort people with my vegetarian presence.* It's especially hard when you live in the South and you're some sort of rebellious, counterculture spectacle if you decide not to eat the meat your family provides.*)


I won't get into where I live and my culture


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Heh, I guess having permission from the person whose thread we're derailing goes a long way to making it acceptable. :wink:


Oh, sorry. Not that it ever wasn't acceptable to me, I just wanted to clarify that really it's okay, if anyone here does have any reservations about that sort of conversation. I don't want any passive-aggressive and typist remarks about someone being a certain function because they demonstrate this behavior like everyone else who uses that function - and I've gotten to the point where I will just report that crap - but I don't expect that sort of behavior from any of you, and if type discussions could benefit anyone I certainly encourage them and hope that some people get type help of their own through this thread.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Oh, sorry. Not that it ever wasn't acceptable to me, I just wanted to clarify that really it's okay, if anyone here does have any reservations about that sort of conversation. I don't want any passive-aggressive and typist remarks about someone being a certain function because they demonstrate this behavior like everyone else who uses that function - and I've gotten to the point where I will just report that crap - but I don't expect that sort of behavior from any of you, and if type discussions could benefit anyone I certainly encourage them and hope that some people get type help of their own through this thread.


Passive aggressive and typist remarks...? Is it bad I don't know what you mean? 

Maybe we should sticky this thread and call it @alittlebear's camp of salvation or something corny like that. :laughing: Though honestly, I'd rather just watch you guys debate feminism, The Hunger Games' morality and vegan attitudes, it's rather splendid. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

@Oswin




"Justice. Sold!"
I've decided to rewatch 77's movie too. I can't, I'm crying. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

* *




"Bravo, hussar!"


----------



## Greyhart

IDK I got some serious Fe and Ni insights from this thread. And as a result insights into my Ne-Si and Ti>Fe preference.


----------



## Greyhart

@Barakiel u kno that Ne quote you brought up about connecting dots I'd actually attribute to Ti. I'd say Ne is more of dot generator.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> @Barakiel u know that Ne quote you brought up about connecting dots I'd actually attribute to Ti. I'd say Ne is more of dot generator.


Huh, really? Seems I'll need to read up on this a bit more, thanks! :laughing:

For now, I'll stick with ESFP, though. :dry:


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Huh, really? Seems I'll need to read up on this a bit more, thanks! :laughing:
> 
> For now, I'll stick with ESFP, though. :dry:


By that logic Se is like.. dot detector/radar? Actually notices what's there for Ji to connect. IDK Fi prob ably does the same. Connect the dots but in the different way. This metaphor is losing me.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> By that logic Se is like.. dot detector/radar? Actually notices what's there for Ji to connect.


Oh, ok then. And what's Ni, one random dot appearing every so often that's brighter than the rest? :laughing:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Oh, ok then. And what's Ni, one random dot appearing every so often that's brighter than the rest? :laughing:


I think maybe Ni is where you suddenly come upon a dot? Ne is maybe leaping between the dots?


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Oh, ok then. And what's Ni, one random dot appearing every so often that's brighter than the rest? :laughing:


Lol wait... hmm... dominant and aux is probably like... one black hole-like dot that sucks every other dots in...... :|


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I think maybe Ni is where you suddenly come upon a dot? Ne is maybe leaping between the dots?


Ha, I feel sorry for you Ne users, @angelcat and @Greyhart, now. :laughing:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Ha, I feel sorry for you Ne users, @_angelcat_ and @_Greyhart_, now. :laughing:


But then, the Ni user would be wandering with no dots for a lot longer, wouldn't they? :happy:


----------



## 68097

I've heard Ne described as building outward, expanding, enveloping everything in its path to reach the answer, and Ni as teleporting to the answer and then having to work backward to "prove" it.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I've heard Ne described as building outward, expanding, enveloping everything in its path to reach the answer, and Ni as teleporting to the answer and then having to work backward to "prove" it.


Shouldn't Ni work better with Ti, in that case?


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> I've heard Ne described as building outward, expanding, enveloping everything in its path to reach the answer, and Ni as teleporting to the answer and then having to work backward to "prove" it.


So Ne has to hack and slash through the undergrowth to get to the treasure, but has a clear path back to show the others, whereas Ni wakes up next to the treasure, but has to cut back all the undergrowth to be able to return to where it came from?


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> But then, the Ni user would be wandering with no dots for a lot longer, wouldn't they? :happy:


Yeah, but at least you wouldn't get mental whiplash. :kitteh:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, but at least you wouldn't get mental whiplash. :kitteh:


Maybe just anxiety you were going the wrong way to get to the dot? :tongue:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Nah, it's more like "Maybe it's aliens, maybe fairies, or maybe I am a cat who dreams about being a human."


I love that Alien guy. He honestly makes me happy. Reminds me of a more outgoing version of my best friend.


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> Ah... I'm actually not sure how I feel about responsibility. My parents taught me at an early age that I can only be responsible for myself. It doesn't mean I don't try to make everyone comfortable when I am in a group, that I don't take it upon myself to befriend anyone who needs befriending, that I don't feel guilty if someone was socially excluded in my presence and I did nothing to ease the transgression... but still, to me I don't feel that responsible for everyone. A part of me understands that people will be people and feel / do things regardless of how I try to help / engage them.
> 
> And I guess we're like.  But honestly, I think that anyone with any function can be liked. It all depends on how a person fits the social desires of the group, who happens to appeal to what members of the group. It all seems very coincidental, honestly.


 Yeah to be fair, as a kid, I was taught a lot of Fe-inspired values. Then I grew up, and realized that although these values are important, you need to be realistic about things. 

You need to think for yourself, and find out why that person was excluded. If it was for a reason, you need to respect that reasoning but if not, then you need to justify reasoning for them to be included in the group. 

To me, you have to think before you include. You need to think about the kind of person you are befriending. Are they toxic? A bad influence? Do I really want this person in my life? Past experiences have taught me a lot of things. They have taught me to be more careful about people, and their motives. 

YES. Everyone needs support, good friends, encouragement and motivation, but they also need learned lessons, and to know their boundaries. They also need to know what they are doing is illogical/wrong. People need friends, and teachers in their lives to bring out the best in them. 

Well, that's my way of thinking anyway. Yes, people are people and aren't gonna change any time soon, no matter what you do. Humans are too set in their ways to change, like the saying says: "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Yes, that also. The niche of your social group, and appeal means a lot too. In a sense, it's like social media marketing. Certain products appeal to some people, whilst others appeal to different people. It depends on our tastes and what we like, haha.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah to be fair, as a kid, I was taught a lot of Fe-inspired values. Then I grew up, and realized that although these values are important, you need to be realistic about things.
> 
> You need to think for yourself, and find out why that person was excluded. If it was for a reason, you need to respect that reasoning but if not, then you need to justify reasoning for them to be included in the group.
> 
> To me, you have to think before you include. You need to think about the kind of person you are befriending. Are they toxic? A bad influence? Do I really want this person in my life? Past experiences have taught me a lot of things. They have taught me to be more careful about people, and their motives.
> 
> YES. Everyone needs support, good friends, encouragement and motivation, but they also need learned lessons, and to know their boundaries. They also need to know what they are doing is illogical/wrong. People need friends, and teachers in their lives to bring out the best in them.
> 
> Well, that's my way of thinking anyway. Yes, people are people and aren't gonna change any time soon, no matter what you do. Humans are too set in their ways to change, like the saying says: "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."
> 
> Yes, that also. The niche of your social group, and appeal means a lot too. In a sense, it's like social media marketing. Certain products appeal to some people, whilst others appeal to different people. It depends on our tastes and what we like, haha.


Ah. I almost laughed a little sadly about the part with choosing non-toxic people to be friends. I can't fathom doing that. My friends are the "toxic" people sometimes... because they might be toxic, but they need friends too. If I ever get a boyfriend, I'm going to be way different about this - I don't have the energy or the time to deal with a relationship where I'm constantly tending to someone's needs, and I am their One person expected to bring them up - but when it comes to friends... I love helping people out, regardless if they have a bad history of being toxic. Call it a lack of wise Si and too much Fe.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I love that Alien guy. He honestly makes me happy. Reminds me of a more outgoing version of my best friend.


I've watching his thing. I was really torn between








and









You have a very exciting friend... but then somewhere in the back of my mind I remember my BFF giggling and comparing me to the Doc Brown. You know, the time car machine doc. What did she mean. :|



alittlebear said:


> So glad you used that second picture as Ni. I saw it without reading your words and went "wait, I do that..." I guess because I do do that. I think that is a pretty accurate representation.


SUCCESS.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

While I was at lunch with a few family friends, I realized how lonely it can be to be surrounded by functions that aren't yours. It was just a little thing, nothing bad, but it represented the difference. My Si mom and the ESTJ family friend were bragging about how well they learned from their parents to clean up after themselves, to always be neat, to need have a messy house that is responsibility. They would be making their parents proud. Why can't we understand that? Me and my ESTP dad just stayed guiltily quiet and listened to them ramble about how organized and resinous they were. 

I wanted to say, "That doesn't make you a better person. It's just you two being SJs." But I mean... That happens all the time. My dad and I just want to ride around for hours and talk about politics and life and listen to music and experience the world, but my mom wants to just eat her food and go home to rest. I wince when my parents criticize the waitress, but to them the waitress just needs to do their job to the point where they don't feel the need to critique her. Through a certain lens, a lot of petty human conflict can be traced back to functions clashing.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I've watching his thing. I was really torn between
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a very exciting friend... but then somewhere in the back of my mind I remember my BFF giggling and comparing me to the Doc Brown. You know, the time car machine doc. What did she mean. :|
> 
> 
> SUCCESS.


My friend is a lovely academic-geared person. He'll talk to you for fifteen minutes about the evidence for why Hitler actually was unaware of concentration camps (and thus, is innocent of what we accuse him of) or explaining some molecular physics or chem term I don't even know... He's fun like that. But I listen and I learn. It's a nice relationship.


----------



## Adena

I'm not here to say anything meaningful, but MY GOODNESS, 109 PAGES! Is that some kind of a PerC record?? It should be one!


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Ah. I almost laughed a little sadly about the part with choosing non-toxic people to be friends. I can't fathom doing that. My friends are the "toxic" people sometimes... because they might be toxic, but they need friends too. If I ever get a boyfriend, I'm going to be way different about this - I don't have the energy or the time to deal with a relationship where I'm constantly tending to someone's needs, and I am their One person expected to bring them up - but when it comes to friends... I love helping people out, regardless if they have a bad history of being toxic. Call it a lack of wise Si and too much Fe.


Hm, different ways to define toxic. Personally through my life I shed friends pretty easily. The ones that stuck I am practically married to but in a platonic friendship way. Can't say I ever had toxic friend since I likely shed the ones that didn't make me feel good faster than they could toxify me. One the other hand my ESFJ mother finally broke with one of her friends after the years of listening her thinly insult my family, mother's heritage, her art, her looks. So on. Similarly I remember my ISFJ friend telling me about a friend she decided to stop seeing who used her as an "emotional toilet" - just dragged her for a "walk" to complain and whine, and in the end my friend would feel drained and miserable. I believe friendship is a two-way street - if you don't give anything back, go frak yourself. On the other hand you have an entertaining train-wreck friends who always are in some trouble or scheming things. They might be not the kind that you confine to but as long as they aren't actively putting you down they are fun to hang out with. All that drama when it isn't directed and you is entertaining.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gray Romantic said:


> I'm not here to say anything meaningful, but MY GOODNESS, 109 PAGES! Is that some kind of a PerC record?? It should be one!


Ah. I'm sure it's happened before.  Maybe not with the chat aspect attached, but...

We're mostly conversing now, and gleaning some bit about our cognitive differences along the way (so this topic isn't _entirely_ irrelevant). Feel free to join in, though! I was wondering if you would choose to come around.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Have any of you played WolfQuest?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At about 5:33 here, you see the girl starting to track down another wolf. The dots start out think then get thicker. When I played the game seven years ago, you would start with one very, very faint yellow dot and have to look around to find the next one. They would gradually get brighter until you came to the wolf you were looking for.
> 
> In many ways, I _do_ experience my ideas in that way. I can brush against an idea at first, but if have to think about it harder to fully realize it. I suffer from the opposite of Ne users, I think. I seldom get an idea for a story or something. When I do get one, I quickly validate if it's worth pursuing or not, then store what's relevant and trash the rest. I almost wish I could say I'm inspired everywhere, but really inspiration comes to me infrequently and oftentimes I discard a lot of the little sprouts of inspiration that come to me.


Huh, it seems interesting, but I haven't played it, no. I have seen Wolf Children, though, an animated movie by Ghibli, if that's related to it in any way... Probably not. :laughing:

Ah, so that's how Ni works, I can relate with my probable inferior form of it. I suck at creativity, I just pervert and twist known things, even when writing. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

Gray Romantic said:


> I'm not here to say anything meaningful, but MY GOODNESS, 109 PAGES! Is that some kind of a PerC record?? It should be one!


And somehow it's still relatively productive and insightful? Miracles.



alittlebear said:


> My friend is a lovely academic-geared person. He'll talk to you for fifteen minutes about the evidence for why Hitler actually was unaware of concentration camps (and thus, is innocent of what we accuse him of) or explaining some molecular physics or chem term I don't even know... He's fun like that. But I listen and I learn. It's a nice relationship.


I like your friend.


----------



## Adena

alittlebear said:


> Ah. I'm sure it's happened before.  Maybe not with the chat aspect attached, but...
> 
> We're mostly conversing now, and gleaning some bit about our cognitive differences along the way (so this topic isn't _entirely_ irrelevant). Feel free to join in, though! I was wondering if you would choose to come around.


I was going to at the beginning but I wasn't sure what to say and I felt like I can't do much help because my Ni knowledge sucks so I lurked hahaha  Cognitive differences are crazy, funny to see how people process information differently.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Hm, different ways to define toxic. Personally through my life I shed friends pretty easily. The ones that stuck I am practically married to but in a platonic friendship way. Can't say I ever had toxic friend since I likely shed the ones that didn't make me feel good faster than they could toxify me. One the other hand my ESFJ mother finally broke with one of her friends after the years of listening her thinly insult my family, mother's heritage, her art, her looks. So on. Similarly I remember my ISFJ friend telling me about a friend she decided to stop seeing who used her as an "emotional toilet" - just dragged her for a "walk" to complain and whine, and in the end my friend would feel drained and miserable. I believe friendship is a two-way street - if you don't give anything back, go frak yourself. On the other hand you have an entertaining train-wreck friends who always are in some trouble or scheming things. They might be not the kind that you confine to too but as long as they aren't actively putting you down they are fun to hang out with. All that drama when it isn't directed and you is entertaining.


It's honestly so hard for me to understand this two-way street thing. My best friend in high school ditched me as soon as I let some of my distress from having PTSD show. Too much for him. And even though I'm a bit sad and betrayed, I understand; I didn't fit his needs, so he left. I still believe that love is a real thing - true, selfless love - but it is something that's not in abundance here. 

To be honest, I'm surprised when my friends want to do nice things for me, when they act like they enjoy my company and want to hear what I have to say. I'm not used to that. It is a bit of a one-way giving relationship with most my friends... but of course they think they're supporting me, because I'm a little girl who needs their protection and comfort.  I don't. I don't know, I've had toxic relationships before and I still keep in touch with those friends and love them because... they're my friends, I love them... but I haven't made so many of those friends in college so far. I was looking at that as an odd thing, but honestly it probably is just a sign that I'm developing healthier relationships.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> It's honestly so hard for me to understand this two-way street thing. My best friend in high school ditched me as soon as I let some of my distress from having PTSD show. Too much for him. And even though I'm a bit sad and betrayed, I understand; I didn't fit his needs, so he left. I still believe that love is a real thing - true, selfless love - but it is something that's not in abundance here.
> 
> To be honest, I'm surprised when my friends want to do nice things for me, when they act like they enjoy my company and want to hear what I have to say. I'm not used to that. It is a bit of a one-way giving relationship with most my friends... but of course they think they're supporting me, because I'm a little girl who needs their protection and comfort.  I don't. I don't know, I've had toxic relationships before and I still keep in touch with those friends and love them because... they're my friends, I love them... but I haven't made so many of those friends in college so far. I was looking at that as an odd thing, but honestly it probably is just a sign that I'm developing healthier relationships.


The two way street I meant wasn't so much as "take care of me!" but rather both parties getting something out of it. Sure, comfort and empathy can be that but also with the last sort of friends I described (train-wrecking crew) it's fun for me, god knows what for them. Probably somebody listening to their train-wrecking without judging and giving some ideas how to not go into too deep trouble. With my best friend for me it's a lot about someone listening to my full-out Ne-Ti theorycrafting without calling me crazy, for her I'll always listen to her worries and try to come up with the ways of fixing them. Also for many of my friends I suspect the fact that I am a natural clown is a big plus since I love making people laugh and thus can lighten up someone's mood without cramming them with my drama. Since I have almost no personal drama. Maybe complain about parents and no money.

Err, see what I say? Honestly, I really hope your friends give you back _something_. :\ I hate it when nice people are being used like my mother or my friend.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart yes, I think I understand what you mean. And for me, just them liking me is enough for me... I'll be friends with anyone who takes positive interest in me, ha. Having someone who doesn't hate me and who lets me be their friend is enough for me, as sad as that sort of is. 

I think part of it honestly is that I've made friends with a lot of guys. Granted, not all of them have been the most healthy people - a few of them are into drugs, and have other issues going on - but I think in general if you're a girl and you make friends with a lot of guys, it's not going to be the same as being friends with a lot of girls. Not to be sexist, and I'm sure it's not the same for everyone... but now that I have like four girl friends who I'm really close to, I'm definitely seeing the advantages of having friends who will discuss their feelings and all their silly little life things with me. It's really lovely, honestly.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Huh, it seems interesting, but I haven't played it, no. I have seen Wolf Children, though, an animated movie by Ghibli, if that's related to it in any way... Probably not. :laughing:
> 
> Ah, so that's how Ni works, I can relate with my probable inferior form of it. I suck at creativity, I just pervert and twist known things, even when writing. :wink:


Hmm... Twisting known things. Perhaps I do that, but I'm not sure. Hmm. 

Oh gosh. I loved WolfQuest. I think my Fe shows there too. I really liked it once they released the part where you could raise a family... I loved having someone to take care of, even in a virtual reality. I named all my puppies after my favorite book characters. It was wonderful. I didn't play it all the time - it wasn't a social game like I really enjoyed as a kid, like Club Penguin - but I did enjoy it quite a bit.

Oh, and I've actually only seen... one Studio Ghibli movie. Where can I find them? So many people like them, and I want to understand why they like them so much.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart yes, I think I understand what you mean. And for me, just them liking me is enough for me... I'll be friends with anyone who takes positive interest in me, ha. Having someone who doesn't hate me and who lets me be their friend is enough for me, as sad as that sort of is.
> 
> I think part of it honestly is that I've made friends with a lot of guys. Granted, not all of them have been the most healthy people - a few of them are into drugs, and have other issues going on - but I think in general if you're a girl and you make friends with a lot of guys, it's not going to be the same as being friends with a lot of girls. Not to be sexist, and I'm sure it's not the same for everyone... but now that I have like four girl friends who I'm really close to, I'm definitely seeing the advantages of having friends who will discuss their feelings and all their silly little life things with me. It's really lovely, honestly.


... All I can say


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> ... All I can say


You too kind.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Hmm... Twisting known things. Perhaps I do that, but I'm not sure. Hmm.
> 
> Oh gosh. I loved WolfQuest. I think my Fe shows there too. I really liked it once they released the part where you could raise a family... I loved having someone to take care of, even in a virtual reality. I named all my puppies after my favorite book characters. It was wonderful. I didn't play it all the time - it wasn't a social game like I really enjoyed as a kid, like Club Penguin - but I did enjoy it quite a bit.
> 
> Oh, and I've actually only seen... one Studio Ghibli movie. Where can I find them? So many people like them, and I want to understand why they like them so much.


Yeah, I'm really not all that creative, honestly, it's just that I can twist things around, like creating a story specifically to deconstruct a trope that annoys me. :dry:

I'm a big games buff myself, pretty much what I love; RPGs are my genre. :laughing:

They're... interesting. Wolf Children is about the problems of a single mother when she's left with children that are half wolf, half human... and yes, it does involve implied bestiality. Every Ghibli movie has its source of weird, like a talking flame that controls a moving house. I think the most normal one is Grave of the Fireflies, which trades the weirdness for being just depressing. As for where you can find them, I've seen them in some movie rental places, but overall, anime stuff is easier to find online, it's a sad reality for otaku like myself. :wink:


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> Ah. I almost laughed a little sadly about the part with choosing non-toxic people to be friends. I can't fathom doing that. My friends are the "toxic" people sometimes... because they might be toxic, but they need friends too. If I ever get a boyfriend, I'm going to be way different about this - I don't have the energy or the time to deal with a relationship where I'm constantly tending to someone's needs, and I am their One person expected to bring them up - but when it comes to friends... I love helping people out, regardless if they have a bad history of being toxic. Call it a lack of wise Si and too much Fe.


 I admit that I used to try and fit in when I was younger. I used to think the "cool kids" were amazing, and untouchable. Then I realized they had issues of their own, and were masking them up through people and socializing. They never showed a lot past the surface, to be honest. They cared more about image than wellbeing. 

Growing up, I had been fortunate not to meet a lot of toxic people. Yes, I kept to myself a lot and introspected around people and tried to find out their true motives and personality, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot about how people really were, and how many of them were hiding behind personas. A lot of them were lost inside. Superficial as hell.

Some people were mean to me for no reason. I felt a little isolated, and became judgmental of people. I knew not everyone was bad though, but finding genuine people was hard for me in high school. 

I did enjoy being around people, and sucking up the atmosphere and enjoyed their company, but I was outlawed a lot for being the "quirky class clown." I learned people's weaknesses, strengths and what made people tick. But I did become critical and cold during that process, due to those bad experiences.

Now, I'm more mature and have learned how from my experiences on how to handle people better. I am away from the people who were horrible to me, and am a lot more confident and wise when it comes to people in general. I know what to expect usually, about peer pressure, how to be assertive, how to get my point across etc. 

Yes, I don't mind helping people, but I want to know what I am getting myself into first. I like to know how the person is etc. Yes, I am chatty and social, but I am wary of certain people too. 

And yes, a long term relationship is different. You need to be careful who you marry, because marriage "is forever". You really need to know and trust who you are going to marry.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Barakiel that sounds kind of interesting actually. My dad is very opposed to anime (which I've tried to tell him does not make logical sense, he's opposed to it for irrational reasons... He loved comic books growing up, and I'm convinced manga is on the same level quality wise as the comic books of his age) so it would be hard to justify getting it from the library or something, but... Do you know if they have any movies on Netflix from Studio Ghibli? 

I can't do video games. Period. I used my Nontendo 64 when I was little, and it was fun to play with family, but apart from that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@LuchoIsLurking this is really interesting, if you don't mind me saying it... I actually wasn't the kid who fit in to be popular. The popular kids already hated me. I mean, I did try to fit in, but... Unfortunately most my toxic friends are friends I picked up because we were both outside the social vibe and we befriended one another. It's really interesting though to hear your insight into those more popular,min social circles. I always feel jealous of them, won't lie. I know they're sometimes not the best or healthiest people, that they're fake... but everyone loves them, respects them, wants to be them. It's so shallow, but I wanted to be like them even though I understood it was impossible for me.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel that sounds kind of interesting actually. My dad is very opposed to anime (which I've tried to tell him does not make logical sense, he's opposed to it for irrational reasons... He loved comic books growing up, and I'm convinced manga is on the same level quality wise as the comic books of his age) so it would be hard to justify getting it from the library or something, but... Do you know if they have any movies on Netflix from Studio Ghibli?
> 
> I can't do video games. Period. I used my Nontendo 64 when I was little, and it was fun to play with family, but apart from that.


Yeah, my entire family doesn't really consider it valid, aside from my step-dad whose seen Ghost in the Shell, and that's about it. :dry: Manga... ergh, I have this intense dislike of manga because *EVERYONE* keeps rabbiting that shows that I like are inferior to the original source, that being the manga, but I have read the Hellsing manga, and it's pretty cool. Still, I hold a grudge. :dry: Netflix... ha, here's the thing, we Aussies don't have Netflix, but if you want, there are a few sites that you can watch shows on, such as Crunchyroll or Funimation's website. I was lucky enough to get one recently for Australia, but some places still don't have them, which is upsetting. 

Is it because you don't have the hand eye coordination thing? Or do you have some prejudice against them? Not judging, just curious, since games are like how I imagine books are for a bookworm. :happy:


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> @LuchoIsLurking this is really interesting, if you don't mind me saying it... I actually wasn't the kid who fit in to be popular. The popular kids already hated me. I mean, I did try to fit in, but... Unfortunately most my toxic friends are friends I picked up because we were both outside the social vibe and we befriended one another. It's really interesting though to hear your insight into those more popular,min social circles. I always feel jealous of them, won't lie. I know they're sometimes not the best or healthiest people, that they're fake... but everyone loves them, respects them, wants to be them. It's so shallow, but I wanted to be like them even though I understood it was impossible for me.


 Yes, once you learn what makes people tick and the formula behind the popular kids' social circles, you realize that they are not all they seem, and they are easy to emulate. I can make people like me or hate me if I want to. I have developed my interpersonal side a lot. I cn manipulate people. I can tell them what they wanna hear, but only if I need to.

I socialize and adapt to survive a lot of the time, to be fair. I don't always socialize because I want to, I do it because I have to. Socializing fixes things, and getting in with the right people does help also. But I have been fortunate enough to meet some good people alonf the way.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, my entire family doesn't really consider it valid, aside from my step-dad whose seen Ghost in the Shell, and that's about it. :dry: Manga... ergh, I have this intense dislike of manga because *EVERYONE* keeps rabbiting that shows that I like are inferior to the original source, that being the manga, but I have read the Hellsing manga, and it's pretty cool. Still, I hold a grudge. :dry: Netflix... ha, here's the thing, we Aussies don't have Netflix, but if you want, there are a few sites that you can watch shows on, such as Crunchyroll or Funimation's website. I was lucky enough to get one recently for Australia, but some places still don't have them, which is upsetting.
> 
> Is it because you don't have the hand eye coordination thing? Or do you have some prejudice against them? Not judging, just curious, since games are like how I imagine books are for a bookworm. :happy:


Games... hand eye coordination and just a lack of interest. I see nothing wrong with games. Wish I could get into them. But I can't find what's productive about them, and I have this thing where if I don't see the use in something, it really bugs me to engage with it. (Of course I engage in unproductive things, but I justify it to myself. This show will help me connect with people. This book will help me understand this aspect of the world better. Sleeping will help me be a healthier person. And I could do the same for video games, but...) I plainly stink at video games. No hand-eye coordination, which isn't helped by my fine motor skill problems. I always tried to join in with my boy cousins, and trust me I wanted to be able to be good at it, connect with them there... but I couldn't. Eventually I just accepted that. 

Ah, I can see why manga would annoy you then.  I try to watch a few episodes of popular manga so I can just know what's going on with it, and sometimes I get sucked in. (Okay, just one. SNK. So good.) Other than that though, one I see anime as kind of dangerous in how it sucks people in (it's not that dangerous, but as someone who can grow obsessive over things it can be dangerous for me) and, for another things it seems like something I could never get a good handle on, because there's just _so much_ anime. It's weird, how I go about these things. 

And ack... I've tried websites for anime - that's how I watched SNK - but my computers are too virus prone, and my dad doesn't like me using them like that. Gah. But perhaps I'll find some anime to watch on Netflix that I enjoy. 

Sorry you don't have Netflix though. That's kind of sad


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes, once you learn what makes people tick and the formula behind the popular kids' social circles, you realize that they are not all they seem, and they are easy to emulate. I can make people like me or hate me if I want to. I have developed my interpersonal side a lot. I cn manipulate people. I can tell them what they wanna hear, but only if I need to.
> 
> I socialize and adapt to survive a lot of the time, to be fair. I don't always socialize because I want to, I do it because I have to. Socializing fixes things, and getting in with the right people does help also. But I have been fortunate enough to meet some good people alonf the way.


See, it's just ironic. I identify as ENFJ and you identify as ESTJ and yet you're the one with the good interpersonal skills and the experience in higher social circles.  I think my anxiety has held me back a lot... but yeah, ive always been aware that they're not what they seem, that obviously they're miserable, I mean the ones I know put people down all the time for enjoyment and I know in my soul that someone can only gather more pain from hurting others... but it still bugs me when I see everyone openly respecting them. They're fake, but that doesn't stop them from having the social impact they do on people. Including little Fe me.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Games... hand eye coordination and just a lack of interest. I see nothing wrong with games. Wish I could get into them. But I can't find what's productive about them, and I have this thing where if I don't see the use in something, it really bugs me to engage with it. (Of course I engage in unproductive things, but I justify it to myself. This show will help me connect with people. This book will help me understand this aspect of the world better. Sleeping will help me be a healthier person. And I could do the same for video games, but...) I plainly stink at video games. No hand-eye coordination, which isn't helped by my fine motor skill problems. I always tried to join in with my boy cousins, and trust me I wanted to be able to be good at it, connect with them there... but I couldn't. Eventually I just accepted that.
> 
> Ah, I can see why manga would annoy you then.  I try to watch a few episodes of popular manga so I can just know what's going on with it, and sometimes I get sucked in. (Okay, just one. SNK. So good.) Other than that though, one I see anime as kind of dangerous in how it sucks people in (it's not that dangerous, but as someone who can grow obsessive over things it can be dangerous for me) and, for another things it seems like something I could never get a good handle on, because there's just _so much_ anime. It's weird, how I go about these things.
> 
> And ack... I've tried websites for anime - that's how I watched SNK - but my computers are too virus prone, and my dad doesn't like me using them like that. Gah. But perhaps I'll find some anime to watch on Netflix that I enjoy.
> 
> Sorry you don't have Netflix though. That's kind of sad


Eh, fair enough, I can see where you're coming from, I just enjoy different stories, like a cyborg debunking a conspiracy, a soldier in a recall mission while they slowly go insane, or a half demon half angel killing a demon masquerading as a news reporter suspiciously similar to Bill O'Reilly while swearing his ass off. (Yes, really. :laughing: ) I'm not great at games, *OH NO*, you've yet to see me rage out at a fighting game (I suck at them. :dry: ), but I like to delude myself that I'm decent at most games.

Yeah, this is why I don't go on forums about anime anymore, it's all people bitching about minute details that are different to their prized original material; god, *shut it.* But yup, there's a metric ton of good ones, deconstructions like Evangelion, Sci Fi like Ghost in the Shell, or a bunch of immortals killing each other in a time period resembling _The Godfather_. :laughing: It's kind of why I rarely finish a series, there's just so much good stuff out there, I feel like I'm missing out on something!

Oh. *OH*. No, much better than those, the ones you've mentioned are likely illegal streaming, like Megashare. The ones I mentioned are supporting the creators, so they (likely, I've never used them) don't have the viruses and multitude of buggy stuff. So no downside, really, except the slight paywall for better quality and English versions besides subtitles, but hey, the problems of the meek! :laughing:

Haha, I've managed with just renting the series I pay attention to, and occasionally watching them as they're displayed on channels, not really something I'm missing. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Barakiel ah. The thing there is I'm not allowed to purchase anything online, especially not anime.  But I'll try to look into seeing if I can watch a show or two on Netflix this summer. Expand my horizons a little, as they say.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel ah. The thing there is I'm not allowed to purchase anything online, especially not anime.  But I'll try to look into seeing if I can watch a show or two on Netflix this summer. Expand my horizons a little, as they say.


Nope, completely free. Apparently it's just the ad revenue that goes to the developers of the products, and you can get a subscription thing for more content, which presumably goes there as well. :laughing: Of course, I'm saying this even though I haven't been to either of the sites I mentioned, but presumably, considering the Australian variant doesn't, those don't. Also, really, you're not allowed to purchase things online? Wow. :dry:


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> See, it's just ironic. I identify as ENFJ and you identify as ESTJ and yet you're the one with the good interpersonal skills and the experience in higher social circles.  I think my anxiety has held me back a lot... but yeah, ive always been aware that they're not what they seem, that obviously they're miserable, I mean the ones I know put people down all the time for enjoyment and I know in my soul that someone can only gather more pain from hurting others... but it still bugs me when I see everyone openly respecting them. They're fake, but that doesn't stop them from having the social impact they do on people. Including little Fe me.


Yeah, maybe I have developed my own "Fe", using Te and Fi. To be fair, the more you know, the less you fear, because knowledge is power after all. 

You can still see this pattern emulated in the hierarchy e.g the media, politics, influential businessmen. Popularity is a system, meant to manipulate, imo. It is a tool used by the too men to manipulate the masses. 

Yes, it is a pity that people use it for pain rather than progress, but that is the way of the world. It's designed that way.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Nope, completely free. Apparently it's just the ad revenue that goes to the developers of the products, and you can get a subscription thing for more content, which presumably goes there as well. :laughing: Of course, I'm saying this even though I haven't been to either of the sites I mentioned, but presumably, considering the Australian variant doesn't, those don't. Also, really, you're not allowed to purchase things online? Wow. :dry:


Yeah, my parents are super scared about fraud, don't want to get their cards hacked. Which I think is understandable, if a bit paranoid. And alright, I will look into those sites. Thank you for your recommendation ^^


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Yeah, my parents are super scared about fraud, don't want to get their cards hacked. Which I think is understandable, if a bit paranoid. And alright, I will look into those sites. Thank you for your recommendation ^^


Ha... ha... haaaaa... Paypal exists. :dry:

Paranoid? No. Not at all. Also, no worries, it's interesting, cause I've heard a lot about those sites, but never been able to bloody use them since *AMERICA IS DOMINANCE.* :dry:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, maybe I have developed my own "Fe", using Te and Fi. To be fair, the more you know, the less you fear, because knowledge is power after all.
> 
> You can still see this pattern emulated in the hierarchy e.g the media, politics, influential businessmen. Popularity is a system, meant to manipulate, imo. It is a tool used by the too men to manipulate the masses.
> 
> Yes, it is a pity that people use it for pain rather than progress, but that is the way of the world. It's designed that way.


Of course you have a touch of Fe, but especially what you're describing here still seems like it could be Te/Fi. Non Fe people are popular. A lot of non Fe people I know are very, very popular. Again, it just depends on the situation entirely, who rises up and who doesn't. 

And of course... yeah. Humanity is cruel. I hate it, but it's a reality of who we are. All we can do - from my perspective - is work to bring as much kindness as we can into the world, and try to bandage the pain in the world as much as we can. (That's what I intend to do with my entire life, anyway.)


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> Of course you have a touch of Fe, but especially what you're describing here still seems like it could be Te/Fi. Non Fe people are popular. A lot of non Fe people I know are very, very popular. Again, it just depends on the situation entirely, who rises up and who doesn't.
> 
> And of course... yeah. Humanity is cruel. I hate it, but it's a reality of who we are. All we can do - from my perspective - is work to bring as much kindness as we can into the world, and try to bandage the pain in the world as much as we can. (That's what I intend to do with my entire life, anyway.)


Yeah, I know. A lot of famous people and influential people aren't Fe-Doms. It all depends on what functions you use to achieve what purpose/goal. 

Yeah, it always was and always will be. A lot of it is by design. We can try to make a difference, and as much change as we can manage, but in the long run, humanity will keep declining to the point on non function. It is destined to happen.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, I know. A lot of famous people and influential people aren't Fe-Doms. It all depends on what functions you use to achieve what purpose/goal.
> 
> Yeah, it always was and always will be. A lot of it is by design. We can try to make a difference, and as much change as we can manage, but in the long run, humanity will keep declining to the point on non function. It is destined to happen.


Ah, I'm not sure about the last point. Not from an ethical or moral standpoint even, just... I don't think any generation s worst than the next. I think we've got about the same morality as the people in the Middle Ages, in the Greek times, under the first Chinese dynasty. Society stays the same. We all (all societies) fall victim to the same faults as the next, just in different ways that seem new. Things are getting more catastrophic, what with our advanced technology, but I don't think that's a sign of human society worsening as a whole... I mean I think that of course the world will end somehow, and perhaps it will be by human hands and war, but I don't think it will be a sign that we've worsened as a society or anything. It's just... again, something that happens when you put certain elements together (like the bad parts of human nature and highly destructive technology, for example). 

Again, not an ethical difference between us I think... just a different thought process about humanity and society, perhaps? Hmm. 

But I've always been amused. When we say, "Oh, we're such a good society. We don't have racism or sexism anymore!" Which of course isn't true lol, but my psych teacher said exactly that. It doesn't work like that. Society will always naturally bully the poor, the victimized,the others, the outcasts. It's sad but true. We might not have institutional and cultural discrimination on such a large scale, but that doesn't mean our society is any morally superior to another. We're just valuing, somewhat shallowly, but in a good way I think, treating people equally. 

Sorry. Perhaps I'm not making sense? It's one of those things I've thought so deeply about that it's hard for me to untangle and explain it again. Sorry for the sloppy explanation.


----------



## fair phantom

*shows up 15 minutes late with starbucks to defend Ned Stark* :th_Jttesur:

oh...we've all moved on? *sheathes sword*

With toxic friends I think it is important to distinguish between types of toxicity. Pushing away a friend because they become depressed or get PTSD feels wrong to me (unless it starts having a serious negative impact on your own mental and emotional well-being). However, if a friend is being manipulative, dependent, abusive (including emotional and physical abuse), self-absorbed, etc...that is another matter. And the way I see it, it often isn't really _helping_ them to stick it out...it's _enabling_. 

This applies to family members as well.

But that's just how I feel about it (after having been the enabler far too often for far too long).


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Ah, I'm not sure about the last point. Not from an ethical or moral standpoint even, just... I don't think any generation s worst than the next. I think we've got about the same morality as the people in the Middle Ages, in the Greek times, under the first Chinese dynasty. Society stays the same. We all (all societies) fall victim to the same faults as the next, just in different ways that seem new. Things are getting more catastrophic, what with our advanced technology, but I don't think that's a sign of human society worsening as a whole... I mean I think that of course the world will end somehow, and perhaps it will be by human hands and war, but I don't think it will be a sign that we've worsened as a society or anything. It's just... again, something that happens when you put certain elements together (like the bad parts of human nature and highly destructive technology, for example).
> 
> Again, not an ethical difference between us I think... just a different thought process about humanity and society, perhaps? Hmm.
> 
> But I've always been amused. When we say, "Oh, we're such a good society. We don't have racism or sexism anymore!" Which of course isn't true lol, but my psych teacher said exactly that. It doesn't work like that. Society will always naturally bully the poor, the victimized,the others, the outcasts. It's sad but true. We might not have institutional and cultural discrimination on such a large scale, but that doesn't mean our society is any morally superior to another. We're just valuing, somewhat shallowly, but in a good way I think, treating people equally.
> 
> Sorry. Perhaps I'm not making sense? It's one of those things I've thought so deeply about that it's hard for me to untangle and explain it again. Sorry for the sloppy explanation.


I'm in between. i do think morality changes but it isn't always better, just different (but it can be better in some ways). What I agree with is that there are always going to be power imbalances, people abusing their power (often not consciously, but merely by going along with the status quo or thinking things like racism are no longer problems when they are), and people being ground down, excluded, and exploited.

This doesn't mean we can't always work to realize a better world, but...I think that better world is more of a journey than a destination.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Taking apart from the discussion that I'm ESFP/ENTJ, why do you think I'm NTP? :happy:


I just thought you were using a lot of Ti and Ne)
Could be wrong) Probably am, haven't caught up yet)


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I just thought you were using a lot of Ti and Ne)
> Could be wrong) Probably am, haven't caught up yet)


Well, you have time now. :kitteh:


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> Ah, I'm not sure about the last point. Not from an ethical or moral standpoint even, just... I don't think any generation s worst than the next. I think we've got about the same morality as the people in the Middle Ages, in the Greek times, under the first Chinese dynasty. Society stays the same. We all (all societies) fall victim to the same faults as the next, just in different ways that seem new. Things are getting more catastrophic, what with our advanced technology, but I don't think that's a sign of human society worsening as a whole... I mean I think that of course the world will end somehow, and perhaps it will be by human hands and war, but I don't think it will be a sign that we've worsened as a society or anything. It's just... again, something that happens when you put certain elements together (like the bad parts of human nature and highly destructive technology, for example).
> 
> Again, not an ethical difference between us I think... just a different thought process about humanity and society, perhaps? Hmm.
> 
> But I've always been amused. When we say, "Oh, we're such a good society. We don't have racism or sexism anymore!" Which of course isn't true lol, but my psych teacher said exactly that. It doesn't work like that. Society will always naturally bully the poor, the victimized,the others, the outcasts. It's sad but true. We might not have institutional and cultural discrimination on such a large scale, but that doesn't mean our society is any morally superior to another. We're just valuing, somewhat shallowly, but in a good way I think, treating people equally.
> 
> Sorry. Perhaps I'm not making sense? It's one of those things I've thought so deeply about that it's hard for me to untangle and explain it again. Sorry for the sloppy explanation.


 No, I get it. Society has always been bad. You can see this even in Biblical times, over 4000 years ago. Take Lot's times. They were shagging animals and everything. People still do this now, unfortunately. But as each generation progresses, we take on the bad habits of the previous ones, cause we as society know no better.

We are all sheep in that sense. And we are going around in circles. As we adapt, we end up hindering ourselves. The machines we once used to help us end up hindering us, as they are so advanced. According to Project 2045, they want a man and machine alliance by 2045. Can you imagine the implications of that? The chaos it will cause? Artificial intelligence running rampant? 

Someday, we will end up destroying ourselves. But even that in itself is a plan. Part of a masterplan. Yes, systematics screws with your head after a while. In a sense, it's like the real version of the Matrix.


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @Oswin -What part are you "hming" over? Whatever my MBTI, I am positive I am a type 7 or 8. I would bet my house on it.


I was just hmming because you seemed to be hmming, you mentioned being unsure on your thread?

But now I'm so unsure of everything I'm typing. And doing, I guess. I literally wore slippers to work? It's an off day for me..online and irl
Just ignore everything)


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> I was just hmming because you seemed to be hmming, you mentioned being unsure on your thread?
> 
> But now I'm so unsure of everything I'm typing. And doing, I guess. I literally wore slippers to work? It's an off day for me..online and irl
> Just ignore everything)


To be fair, I have no idea if this is Ne/ ADHD or NEHD, but sometimes my thoughts end up like this song:

 https://youtu.be/NZxzLPdPJDs


Mostly, they are like this though:

 https://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs


 https://youtu.be/P1z-bKjXEmc


 https://youtu.be/Gzea9B0Hbu4


 https://youtu.be/PYAeoQxQGg0


Bonus track, sums up my whole MBTI experience in a nutshell:

 https://youtu.be/Mh3Kk5tZSmo


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> To be fair, I have no idea if this is Ne/ ADHD or NEHD, but sometimes my thoughts end up like this song:
> 
> https://youtu.be/NZxzLPdPJDs
> 
> 
> Mostly, they are like this though:
> 
> https://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/P1z-bKjXEmc
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/Gzea9B0Hbu4
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/PYAeoQxQGg0
> 
> 
> Bonus track, sums up my whole MBTI experience in a nutshell:
> 
> https://youtu.be/Mh3Kk5tZSmo


When I click these, it just says "HTTP 404 Not Found" :/


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> When I click these, it just says "HTTP 404 Not Found" :/


It works fine on the Tapatalk app for me.


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> Not sure where to put this thought, but you were talking about metaphors for Ne and Ni before and...Windmills of Your Mind is a super-Ne song, right? When I thought I was ENFJ I thought it depicted Ni because I thought I used Ni and in my mind I mostly used it to justify Ni but it's pure Ne...right?
> 
> Is there a pure this-is-Ni song?
> 
> I think everyone knows this song but it's linked with lyrics in the spoiler:
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Music video irrelevant)
> 
> 
> 
> I am one of like 5 and a half people that don't watch Doctor Who but THAT SONG'S LYRICS IS GREAT. :th_love:
> 
> Tori Amos is painfully INFJ to me but I can't say I know her song that is purely about Ni.


----------



## Tad Cooper

I know this isnt Ni related, but can anyone explain how they use Fe in different positions (dom/aux/ter/inf)?


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> I know this isnt Ni related, but can anyone explain how they use Fe in different positions (dom/aux/ter/inf)?


Tert Fe - understand what's up with people and social situations so I can decide what do with it, how to react to it, and how to manipulate it. E.g. understand that friend is sad so I can try and find out why friend is sad so then I can think of the way I or a friend themselves can fix it. Or understand that mood is really not fitting to what I want to talk about. Or understand that I probably shouldn't open my mouth and say that innuendo joke I just came up with in front of kids and elderly family members.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

tine said:


> I know this isnt Ni related, but can anyone explain how they use Fe in different positions (dom/aux/ter/inf)?


Have you seen @angelcat's blog, FunkyMBTIFiction? She has a lot of good resources like that, resources that I agree with. 

But I never did get around to telling you about my Fe, did I? 

It's just sort of hard to explain because honestly it's so natural to me. That sounds silly, but that's really how it is. 

Fe is...

Fe is having to take your friend to the movies with you because you know you want him to know how much you care about him, but hen also knowing that the movie will be different because he's there. Because you know that you're going to be trying to please him the entire movie subconsciously, laughing when he laughs, smiling when he smiles, and you know you won't be as free as you would be if you just went with your family. But you take your friend anyway, and you are polite to his mom at the door, and you blush and genuinely apologize when she tells you that you should have called last week, and you didn't feel bad for not calling say week but you do now as she tells you your friend was upset by your not calling him. So on the way to the theatre, you are as attentive as ever to him. The whole conversation is light, but it's something you make sure engages the entire car, especially your friend. And, knowing the needs of your friend, you make him list out the food he are today when he says he's not hungry when your mom asks where he wants to eat, and through that both you and your mom know that he's got to eat something. 

And you talk to him in the car while you eat your food and mom saves you a space in the theatre, and you tell him in a tone, "[his name]" quite motherly when he starts talking about some vaguely inappropriate science thing in front of your sister, and you're still sure not to mention last week so he won't remember how you didn't call. 

And in the movies, it's just like that, just like how you thought it would be. You have a hard time enjoying it because you're so busy being non offensive to your friend, too busy smiling and laughing and focusing on him without letting him know you're focusing on him. And after the movie you ask what his favorite part was, and you ask your dad what his favorite part was, and you ask your mom if she liked it, and you ask your dad if he _really_ liked it, and you try to ease the conversation between your friend and your father on the way back to your friend's house. And when you get back, you say goodbye and you get out and hug him three times and you make him promise to tell you when he gets back from college so you can hang out and you say have fun and tell him it'll be great, and then you get back in the car and resume conversation with your dad in an entirely different tone. 

That's a very specific example, but that's one night from a little little while ago where I used my Fe. I guess I could give other examples,

- how I personally did not want to go outside and help with yard work because I was not feeling well, and my legs were not going to work right, and my mom understood this because I explained to her how I was not feeling well and she was mildly still expectant of me to come outside but because she was okay with it I was not planning on going outside until my father came to my door (not knowing I was feeling sick) and said, "You're coming outside to help, right?" And then I pulled on my hard work clothes and went outside to help and quickly gained a pile of leaves bigger than my sisters', and kept working even after I couldn't walk because I wanted to make sure I wasn't seen as lazy, that I was productive, especially since my family has to sacrifice so much for me now with my mobility issues and I'm hoping not to annoy them 

- this is an odd example because it wasn't too socially appropriate, but I ran into the pharmacy three minutes before it closed last night because I _had_ to get this composition book. And I walked briskly past the woman who was about to lock he entrance with a smile, and I quickly, politely asked the lady, "Where are your composition books?" to show her that I meant to make a speedy purchase, and I ignored the advice of my mom, sister, and neighbor regarding which booklet I should get (because in my head I knew what I wanted and it was my money so it really does not matter what they think), but I complimented my sister's choice of pencils when I saw them and tried to talk my thoughts out loud a little so that my mom, sister, and neighbor could get an idea of my thought process and not totally think I was ignoring them and being too picky. (I was ignoring them and being too picky, but I didn't want to be over the top rude.) And Fe was me matching the warm tone of the cashiers and playing up to the amusement they had at our staying in the store two minutes after its usual closing. 

- Fe is me asking my dad, "What is everyone wearing?" when I learn that the next day we're going out to eat with our (other) neighbor and his son who just proposed to his now-fiancé, then me remarking, "Oh, but _of course_ the three of you talked about what you were going to wear" in a slightly sarcastic manner, which my mom gets but which I have to explain to my dad as, "It was a joke." And Fe is me having to show my shirt to my parents before we go to make certain it's alright, and me _still_ wincing when we get there and see that both the son's fiancé and our neighbor's wife are wearing lovely dresses. I self-consciously slide on the formal sweater I brought and sit at the edge of the table so as not to draw attention to myself. 

There should give you some idea of how my Fe works. Honestly I do have other thoughts - I'm honestly dealing with flashbacks through all of these examples, and trying to figure out what I want to do when I get home, and I'm attentively listening to the conversation of everyone around me (not all at the same time, I'm never overwhelmed by too many thoughts, I just have sprouts of thoughts that I choose to pick or not in turn, these thoughts just alternate through my head) - but subconsciously I can see how Fe overlays most everything that I do (even if it does still result in me seeming like an awkward penguin 24/7. I'm trying not to be, and I suppose it is the thought that counts).


----------



## Immolate

*silent scream that sounds something like _but everyone can be nice because they want to!~_*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I hate to go back this far, especially when I didn't respond to so many people, but I was wanting to respond to this yesterday before the other discussion popped. (Hunger Games discussions interest me more than they should as a person who somewhat claims to hate The Hunger Games.)


angelcat said:


> Fe-dom, ladies and gentlemen.
> 
> Though in fairness, my Enneagram 2 ISFJ BFF doesn't like Gale either, for the same reason. Maybe it's the 6 in me, but I can see his reasoning.
> 
> My response, reading it, was: WHAT A SAP.
> 
> Again, not my BFF's reaction. She adores Peeta.
> 
> (I'm not exactly the sappy/romantic type. It's tragic... according to some. I just laugh and watch "The Godfather" again.)
> 
> Why? You afraid it'll derail the thread?


I feel a bit silly for hating him for that. Because I recognize that it is war, he does have to do that... but no. The author knew what she was doing when she characterized him that way, when she made him choose to take that side. He was being a heartless jerk. Ugh. I'll probably read it again in a second. Doesn't even Katniss get a little shocked? 

* MAJOR SPOILERS FOR MOCKINGJAY AGAIN I AM SERIOUS THIS TIME * I was also perturbed by the thing they even considered at the end. Running another Hunger Games to punish the Capitol's children. Unbelievable. They even voted yes on it! I was completely with dear, perfect Annie there. This is not what Finnick would have wanted. This is not what any humane person would have wanted! If I remove my feelings and my own humane thoughts I can see their reasoning, but their decision was influenced by their emotions as well. Their bitterness. And I shuddered at it, shuddered at that entire conversation. 

I am so glad though that they are characterizing Snow's granddaughter in the films. I really love her? Honestly, I do. I mean I think she's literally probably said less than ten lines, but... Just to imagine her, representing true sweetness in the Capitol, oblivious at first to the horrors within it but slowly growing more aware, unable to stand against it but still quietly growing rebellious in her own mind. Gah. I love her. I hope they show her more in the fourth movie, especially since the decision at the end has so much to do with her existence. [The heartless cows. Ugh.] * spoilers end again *

I am comforted that you have a friend who felt the same way. I've yet to meet someone who even knows what I am referring to when I say I hate Gale for his decision in District 2. I guess people got too caught up in "oh! Gale's so hot and protective!" to recognize the horrible thing he was supporting. (Not everyone is this way, of course, but most the teenage Gale fans I come into contact with seem to be, as they don't know what I mean.) 

Your friend sounds sweet  Maybe I am a 2 after all. (Been considering 9.) 

But yes, I love Peeta. I actually didn't like him until my friend (the one who thought and still probably thinks that she is Katniss) told me that "I wasn't like Katniss, but I was just like Peeta." She said it kindly too, perhaps with some envy maybe, if I remember correctly. I was resistant at first, but then I thought about it. I guess she sees me as that person who would resist killing at all costs, who would be great at getting the crowd to love me... and who would be ultimately helpless in spite of my good intentions. In that way, I could see where she was going with the comparison. And I decided I would choose to like Peeta okay. 

Someone wrote a casual analysis on Tumblr about how Peeta is like the helpless here's damsel in distress in the usual sexist films / books. I actually like that comparison. I think it's kind of true? Katniss takes the traditionally masculine hero role and Peeta, while not exactly feminine, does fill the role of the classically helpless hero's love interest. He's good with people. He needs saving. The whole story ends up being about saving him, even though of course he thinks he's the one saving _her_. The last book really seals it for me though, as Mockingjay Part 1 is all about Katniss' determination to rescue him. I felt silly when I read the post for not recognizing more consciously the switch of gender roles in THG. 

(And I haven't watched The Godfather either, but... My dad is showing me "classic" movies. I'm sure we'll get there in time. I think Braveheart's next on our quest.) 

As for discussing feminism, it's one of those topics we could get heated about. I guess it couldn't be too bad since we've discussed the one topic that gets me more riled up than anything, the undeniable and in age humanity of every person, but that's more of a theoretical concept that not as many people feel as strongly about... If we get into feminism I fear we'll get into deeper discussions of more controversial issues. I do want to keep this as friendly as possible, which is difficult to do when discussing hangs that people really get fired up about.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> *silent scream that sounds something like _but everyone can be nice because they want to!~_*


Again, that's really, really not what I meant? Of course everyone can be nice, and I'm sorry if anything I said implied otherwise. I was trying to show how at the forefront of my decisions are making sure that everyone around me is comfortable. That's how my Fe works, and I do it almost involuntarily because it brings me something of mental pain if there is conflict or discomfort. Again, others do it too - my ISxJ mom, ESTP dad, and ExTJ sister were all very kind to my friend, everyone was very pleasant at the lunch with my neighbors, the people at the pharmacy were all very kind as well, everyone was very nice in these examples - but I think that the Fe brings some of us to more intentionally ease the group... since that's what Fe does. Again though, I'm really sorry if it seemed like I was saying that only Fe can be nice. That wasn't my intention in any way. Of course Fi users can do what I did, and I would be interested to hear how they would react in these situations, but I think perhaps our thought process and motivation for doing these things could be different? Since that is... the difference between functions, you know.

I also think it goes back to what @fair phantom said a few pages ago. When healthy, both Fe and Fi can accomplish the same thing and want the same things. (In this case, being, as you said, nice.) I really think this is an example of that as well.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Again, that's really, really not what I meant? Of course everyone can be nice, and I'm sorry if anything I said implied otherwise. I was trying to show how at the forefront of my decisions are making sure that everyone around me is comfortable. That's how my Fe works, and I do it almost involuntarily because it brings me something of mental pain if there is conflict or discomfort. Again, others do it too - my ISxJ mom, ESTP dad, and ExTJ sister were all very kind to my friend, everyone was very pleasant at the lunch with my neighbors, the people at the pharmacy were all very kind as well, everyone was very nice in these examples - but I think that the Fe brings some of us to more intentionally ease the group... since that's what Fe does. Again though, I'm really sorry if it seemed like I was saying that only Fe can be nice. That wasn't my intention in any way. Of course Fi users can do what I did, and I would be interested to hear how they would react in these situations, but I think perhaps our thought process and motivation for doing these things could be different? Since that is... the difference between functions, you know.
> 
> I also think it goes back to what @_fair phantom_ said a few pages ago. When healthy, both Fe and Fi can accomplish the same thing and want the same things. (In this case, being, as you said, nice.) I really think this is an example of that as well.


But that can be true of Fi as well, especially for people they care about. I just don't see human decency as strictly Fe or Fi.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> But that can be true of Fi as well, especially for people they care about. I just don't see human decency as strictly Fe or Fi.


Again, I apologize, but I don't see where you're seeing that I'm trying to say "human decency is strictly Fe or Fi"? I feel bad, but I'm confused where you're getting that I'm implying otherwise.


----------



## Greyhart

@alittlebear wow








Fe dom is a hardcore way to live.









TBH I have a hard time imagining myself living not as Pe dominant.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Again, I apologize, but I don't see where you're seeing that I'm trying to say "human decency is strictly Fe or Fi"? I feel bad, but I'm confused where you're getting that I'm implying otherwise.


You shouldn't feel bad. I'm not offended. Your first example is one that outright confuses me because how else is someone going to act around a friend they care about? How is that Fe?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart being Ne sounds pretty interesting as well. Not sure if I could handle it, at least the way @TelepathicGoose described it. I won't even attempt to paraphrase what she said about being Ne, but it certainly seemed like an interesting and (to me) difficult experience of the world. Exhausting mentally, although I'm sure you and her are both recharged by your way of existing.


----------



## Greyhart

You guys are arguing about an obvious thing. Every type can be nice, can be ass, can be artist, can be scientist. That's not what functions are about. She describes the way her Fe is leading her in her relationships with people. Again, not "What you do" but "Why and how you come to doing it".


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> You guys are arguing about an obvious thing. Every type can be nice, can be ass, can be artist, can be scientist. That's not what functions are about. She describes the way her Fe is leading her in her relationships with people. Again, not "What you do" but "Why and how you come to doing it".


I just don't see the point in calling it Fe.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart being Ne sounds pretty interesting as well. Not sure if I could handle it, at least the way @TelepathicGoose described it. I won't even attempt to paraphrase what she said about being Ne, but it certainly seemed like an interesting and (to me) difficult experience of the world. Exhausting mentally, although I'm sure you and her are both *recharged by your way of existing.*


For others it looks like this











> at least the way @TelepathicGoose described it.


Do you remember where? Always interesting how other Ne dom describe their view of reality.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> You shouldn't feel bad. I'm not offended. Your first example is one that outright confuses me because how else is someone going to act around a friend they care about? How is that Fe?


I thought it was Fe because I went out of my way to make sure he was comfortable, even subconsciously (to him). I imagine that lower Fe (like him and my dad) or lower Fi (like my sister) would have an easier time focusing on the movie rather than on their friend, that they would be able to enter the movie world rather than still in their friend's bubble of what they're feeling to make them comfortable. 

I can see where you would see a lot of the friend stuff as something anyone would do. Hugging, making sure they call, talking in different tones to different people, making sure they did eat and they aren't just being polite. Those are (definitely?) just things that friends do because they care about each other. As well as the thing about protecting your sister from in appropriate content. That's something everyone does, I think you're right about that. 

Perhaps a better example, although it's tinged by my anxiety... The other day I went to the bookstore. And even though my book was right where these kids (teenagers, I guess) were standing, kissing, talking, goofing around, not looking at books, I tried my best to pretend to be looking at the books a little ways down the aisle so I wouldn't intrude on them (even though I really wanted to look for that book). 

I guess that's polite ness? But I know a lot of people who would have glared at them stonily and said, "Excuse me," or even have called the manager to have them stop their ridiculous behavior. Just in general, my whole life seems to be orienting myself around others, trying to be non intrusive, even and especially around strangers. Healthy Fi usage could do that as well, and part of my doing that is my Fe paired with anxiety, but that's one way I think I use my Fe.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> P.S. I didn't think you come off like you were invacomplicatedword her Fe. I thought there was a miscommunication, and I am into fixing things. And also curious how it happened, and what happened, and need to understand what's going on. That's what I saw. :crazy:


People usually assume I'm more angry/frustrated than I am. I do not do Fe well~


----------



## Max

I have a question. Isn't Te basically Fe, only Te focuses more on objects and facts, but Fe focuses on people, and social circles?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_Quang_'s test is great  It keeps giving me a 5 fix, and I'm still not sure if I've got a 9 core of a 2 core, but I think the test is a great tool.


It was pretty accurate for me :O


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> I think it's both 2 and 9,more 9 generally but could be 2?
> My dad is like that too and he has a strong 9 fix at least,he's not exactly "upbeat" but he's always calm and like everything's good,he said so many times he doesn't like to bother people with his problems and negative emotions.
> I'm not sure about 2, it's the weirdest type when it comes to emotions imo.
> Like,I often feel a bit ingenuine deep down,not that I'm faking emotions but more like I'm...creating everything,making everything work the way it should work,like I get to choose what I feel and what everyone else is feeling.
> Not sure how to explain it,but the thing is that I'm emotional and expressive but it isn't what some would call "raw" emotion,I don't really know what I feel beyond what I should feel,what I or others deserve to feel,what I and others don't deserve to feel,etc.
> 
> Sorry,not an enneagram thread (or my thread haha) but you did mention me
> Maybe someone has some ideas


Yeah, to me, like... I know that like by definition I _am_ faking emotions, but to me it's more... I'm not. I don't know. Like I'm just matching the environment? And a part of me is genuinely engaged in the conversation and wanting to be upbeat and of course the fact that I am smiling shows me I am happy even if it doesn't match my thoughts... It's weird. 

Honestly I'm more and more convinced my core is 9. My mom reminded me again last night how her coworker (who loves me) says that one of the amazing things about me is that there can be chaos around me, but I'll still be calm and smiling. That seems like a 9 thing, absorbing the environment but still preserving myself. (Well, what he said was "[alittlebear] can walk through the hall and the kids can be fighting and throwing stuff and nothing will hit her and no one will say anything unkind to her" [which is untrue lol, kids make comments and still throw things and happen to hit me, I just ignore it because what the heck else am I supposed to do] and I guess he could have been saying that the kids like me so much and see me as so kind that they don't want to bother me, but I think he was more expressing that I can seem to be not negatively affected by the chaos around me and remain stable. Sounds like a perception of me as being more 9.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> People usually assume I'm more angry/frustrated than I am. I do not do Fe well~


FearandTrembling mentioned in his post on LD's thread that Ni can appear stony. He asked LD if she often had people asks her if she was okay, that she wasn't upset, and found her too serious. I actually relate to that a bit. I can get very contemplative and go into a very "stony" state. I sort of have to go out of my way to exaggerate my smiles and happy voice to make sure people aren't put off by me, thinking I am being too cold or that I'm upset (especially when I'm just... contemplative, sigh).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I have a question. Isn't Te basically Fe, only Te focuses more on objects and facts, but Fe focuses on people, and social circles?


 @shinynotshiny?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> FearandTrembling mentioned in his post on LD's thread that Ni can appear stony. He asked LD if she often had people asks her if she was okay, that she wasn't upset, and found her too serious. I actually relate to that a bit. I can get very contemplative and go into a very "stony" state. I sort of have to go out of my way to exaggerate my smiles and happy voice to make sure people aren't put off by me, thinking I am being too cold or that I'm upset (especially when I'm just... contemplative, sigh).


I had to develop an emoticon habit. Also, "That was sarcasm" and "This is just my face."

But don't types like INFP and ISTJ also appear stony?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_?


Essentially?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I had to develop an emoticon habit. Also, "That was sarcasm" and "This is just my face."
> 
> But don't types like INFP and ISTJ also appear stony?


I do the same thing, having to say, "That was sarcasm..." and trying to explain that really I'm fine, I'm just thinking. (Although more often I'm trying to explain to my family that my talking differently on the phone than to them does not mean I love them any less. It's just a change in voice inflection that happens when I talk to different people, and I really can't help it.) 

Yes, INFPs and ISTJs definitely appear stony as well, and in a way that so far I don't think I've encountered with the SFJs I know. I think it depends on the different functions - Fi tends to be stony, and Ni can be that way too - and what they do when they're stony, how they react to being stony, etc.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I have a question. Isn't Te basically Fe, only Te focuses more on objects and facts, but Fe focuses on people, and social circles?


Yeah, that's how I am getting into Te. I should be getting into Fi the same way via Ti but brain just doesn't want to go there, it refuses.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> FearandTrembling mentioned in his post on LD's thread that Ni can appear stony. He asked LD if she often had people asks her if she was okay, that she wasn't upset, and found her too serious. I actually relate to that a bit. I can get very contemplative and go into a very "stony" state. I sort of have to go out of my way to exaggerate my smiles and happy voice to make sure people aren't put off by me, thinking I am being too cold or that I'm upset (especially when I'm just... contemplative, sigh).


Haha, because of how my face is normally very emoted around people when I accidentally fall out of reality into Ne-Ti lalaland people instantly go like "What's up? Are you hurting? Angry?". What, no. That's my thinking face. I look like this at home all the time.


----------



## Darkbloom

Tbh I'm sure anyone can be stony,but certain types are less likely ofc,Pi doms in general look the least "here" in my experience,Ti looks inwardly focused but more present,etc. but it can be person just using that function atm,when a Fe dom tries to concentrate on their thoughts they surely aren't using Fe(at least not as you'd expect,they don't look Fe)


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Yeah, that's how I am getting into Te. I should be getting into Fi the same way via Ti but brain just doesn't want to go there, it refuses.


Yeah. I am trying to get into Fe and Ti, and develop it when I need to, so I can come across as ENTP if the situation calls for it >

Ha, but really, you never know when you might be plummeted into a situation that calls for Fe and Ti. I have enough Ne to survive, I think.

SIDE NOTE: I don't get why people think SJs are rigid and uncreative, especially ISTJs. Some of the most creative writers at comic con are SJs.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Tbh I'm sure anyone can be stony,but certain types are less likely ofc,Pi doms in general look the least "here" in my experience,Ti looks inwardly focused but more present,etc. but it can be person just using that function atm,when a Fe dom tries to concentrate on their thoughts they surely aren't using Fe(at least not as you'd expect,they don't look Fe)


I am often wrapped up in my thoughts... but I'm still convinced I'm not INFJ. For reasons I've gone over and over here. I just use my introverted functions more than most extroverts do, given circumstantial reasons, I think.


----------



## owlet

@alittlebear - Sorry to jump back, but I was writing and noticed that I spent a fair while trying to work out exactly what the character is feeling and how to express that as accurately as possible. Do you found yourself doing this too? How do you deal with conveying emotion in your work?


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I am often wrapped up in my thoughts... but I'm still convinced I'm not INFJ. For reasons I've gone over and over here. I just use my introverted functions more than most extroverts do, given circumstantial reasons, I think.


You don't seem stony anyway,from what I've seen at least 
I really think you are mostly wrapped up in your thoughts in inferior Ti way,more than Ni-Ti way


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> Yes... Again, I do have GAD and my experience of Fe is tied very closely to my social anxiety. It's difficult for me to tell them apart,for the reasons I explained in my last post.
> 
> And honestly? I do find it exhausting. Which is not typical for an extrovert, but I think that's my anxiety as well.
> 
> One example of me not finding it exhausting and being a typical extrovert... I just wanted to keep talking, when we dropped my friend off. I didn't withdraw from my dad, I just wanted to keep talking and talking and talking to my dad after my friend left. And I think that's a common thing with me - when you get me talking, I will talk and talk and talk and have a hard time stopping. I actually have difficulty with elevator conversations, because it's hard for me to contain a real conversation within a single minute, and I know it's awkward when the conversation with a stranger randomly has to break off.
> 
> And, along with the thing that they put on the typing websites about ENFJs getting dark thoughts when alone... I do experience it. Lately it's because of flashbacks. Yesterday I went with my mom to drop off my sister's friend after the movie we saw because I knew that when I was in the house alone, I was going to be triggered and want to cry again, and I wanted to prolong that. And... when I did get home, I _did_ just cry a little, until my mom came in and even though I said I didn't want to talk about it she just say here until I talked about it and she listened and honestly that ended up making me feel so much better. And then I was left alone for maybe ten minutes until my dad came upstairs and came to my room and we conversed about his friend, and that light, meaningful conversation was helpful for both of us. Again, these are things that would probably help anyone, especially someone suffering from trauma... but I think there are some Fe uses there, like me feeling better after I express my feelings to someone and my capacity to just chat chat chat chat chat and get really sad when the chat has to be over.
> 
> As for how my Fe interacts with Ni, I will try to respond to that today but at the moment I need to go do some things first.


Im sorry you have GAD, I have it too and am on medication for it, it sucks. It IS interesting to see how it affects people differently though. With you, you said it so it seems like you get anxious with people judging you for being 'wrong' in the situation i.e. wearing the wrong clothes etc. For me it's very different in that I find I get set off by feeling overwhelmed by i.e. having to see people when I want to just stay in and do my own thing, or being overwhelmed by work etc.
Im also sorry you get triggered by things, its interesting you talk to people you trust about it (which is good), whereas if things trigger me I cant even look at people without feeling loads worse. I wonder if thats to do with Fe in different positions? Ive read Fe likes to talk things out, whereas I find it very hard (this had led to many relationship issues as I cant work out how to discuss things so just leave them until they become so uncomfortable I cant cope - I am SO mature....)


----------



## Darkbloom

Btw changing the subject for a moment XD,does anyone really don't like changing the good atmosphere,good relationships,etc.Like,let's say I met someone and we really hit it off but suddenly there's disagreement,I'll pretend to think whatever they want me to just because we got along soooo great,why ruin it,the idea of disagreeing and disappointing them like that is almost physically painful 
Is tha Fe,9,2 or something else?Or Si+Fe?:laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> @alittlebear - Sorry to jump back, but I was writing and noticed that I spent a fair while trying to work out exactly what the character is feeling and how to express that as accurately as possible. Do you found yourself doing this too? How do you deal with conveying emotion in your work?


It's fine! And... not as much, no. It just... flows. I don't have to know what the character is feeling, because given the situation in he writing my mind seems to just understand. 

That said, I do have to do certain things to get in the mood of my writing. For example, and sorry this is a little sad, for my writing class we had to rewrite one of the two stories we had written. I happened to have written one very serious, solemn story, and one very happy, cute, quirky story. My writing instructor told me to pick the one I wanted to do the most, and edit that one, but I knew that the fun story was out of the question. I knew I just could not pull that off, because I was really dragged down my trauma thoughts during that time and I knew that writing a happy story would only make me emotionally sick, and come off as fake. So I did the deeper, more sad story. 

Another thing is, I have to listen to some songs with the same conflict / idea as the chapter / scene I'm working on. Like I have one character who sees everything as happer than it is even though he lives in a very sad world, so I might listen to some Owl City music to get me geared up for the scene and now I would probably listen to some Indie, alternate between the two... not to get my feelings geared up so much, although my hoarding those feelings to spit out later when I write, but rather to create a unique mixture of thoughts and connections in my mind relating to the scene at hand to create the specific mindset I need to pull off the intensity in the chapter I want. 

It's some feelings, but that's more subconscious to me. When I write I'm more trying to work the thoughts and connections in my head so I can direct them towards the writing goal I have at hand.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah. I am trying to get into Fe and Ti, and develop it when I need to, so I can come across as ENTP if the situation calls for it >
> 
> Ha, but really, you never know when you might be plummeted into a situation that calls for Fe and Ti. I have enough Ne to survive, I think.
> 
> SIDE NOTE: I don't get why people think SJs are rigid and uncreative, especially ISTJs. Some of the most creative writers at comic con are SJs.


Because most Internet descriptions suck and then those short Si summaries go like "Traditionalistic and focused on past sensations" and people think Amish grandpas and since function theory is complicated many just leave it there.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Anti-anxiety pills all have effects that slow you down one way or another. Sap the mental energy out. Sure I have lots of it but still feels like I have to fight to keep my energy levels up IN ADDITION to anxiety symptoms which they don't just turn off. Certain pills made it so hard to stay awake and motivated that just after a month I had a terrible depression rebound with suicidal impulses and all that. So personally screw pills... except for lightest ones maybe to help calm down before the bed.


This was true for me, actually. I found I couldn't take anti-anxiety medication or anti-depressants because they just made me feel weird: sluggish, tired, a bit miserable (I was still comparing it to my depression so maybe it was more than a bit) and queasy - and I didn't make the decision to stop them lightly, because I was dealing with GAD, social anxiety and agoraphobia. I'm very sensitive to medication generally though, whereas I know many people who've taken these medications and it's worked really well for them. I think it really depends on the person. You need therapy alongside pills generally though. I just got lucky when my brain chemicals decided to flip back to a more even balance on their own (well, that was for the depression, the anxiety was mostly pushing myself by studying in Japan on my own for a whole year).


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> *But the thing is, it's not exhausting for me? It's just my life. *
> 
> I've tried medication for a lot of things, including medication for Tourette's and dystonia that went into psych medication land and anxiety medication. It doesn't do anything for me except make my symptoms worse and make me just... numb. And I hate that. While I am understanding about medication, and I know that many people benefit from it, for me personally I don't like alien substances in my body and influencing my brain. I'm funny about it, and my psychologist is very understanding about this. I worked through my uncontrollable Tourette's with cognitive therapy, and I am absolutely convinced that I can do the same with my anxiety and trauma.


I felt the same way, then I got better and realized wow, what the hell was I doing with my life.

Of course it all comes down to what works for you.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> But the thing is, it's not exhausting for me? It's just my life.
> 
> I've tried medication for a lot of things, including medication for Tourette's and dystonia that went into psych medication land and anxiety medication. *It doesn't do anything for me except make my symptoms worse and make me just... numb. And I hate that. While I am understanding about medication, and I know that many people benefit from it, for me personally I don't like alien substances in my body and influencing my brain.* I'm funny about it, and my psychologist is very understanding about this. I worked through my uncontrollable Tourette's with cognitive therapy, and I am absolutely convinced that I can do the same with my anxiety and trauma.


Absolutely the same. I am with you. And I don't mean to belittle people that take them and it helps them. Just the good it did didn't outweigh the slowing down of my brain. I just can't take that feeling, I prefer being stressed to that.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Absolutely the same. I am with you. And I don't mean to belittle people that take them and it helps them. Just the good it did didn't outweigh the slowing down of my brain. I just can't take that feeling, I prefer being stressed to that.


It does slow me down, but I prefer being numb over what I was experiencing before:










It's really all a matter of pros and cons and what you're willing to keep or sacrifice.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Personally, I agree with Lady Antebellum that "I'd rather hurt than feel nothing at all." But I completely understand that others might disagree, especially since they may very probably be experiencing things different than I am, by their personal illness or outside circumstance.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Personally, I agree with Lady Antebellum that "I'd rather hurt than feel nothing at all." But I completely understand that others might disagree, especially since they may very probably be experiencing things different than I am, by their personal illness or outside circumstance.


I can relate, although probably in a different way. :tongue: Still, feeling nothing at all get tiring after a while, from experience. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Personally, I agree with Lady Antebellum that "I'd rather hurt than feel nothing at all." But I completely understand that others might disagree, especially since they may very probably be experiencing things different than I am, by their personal illness or outside circumstance.


lol I'd rather be numb than dead. This is me numb and it suits me well. I never understood the masochistic angle.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Personally, I agree with Lady Antebellum that "I'd rather hurt than feel nothing at all." But I completely understand that others might disagree, especially since they may very probably be experiencing things different than I am, by their personal illness or outside circumstance.


That and in addition I think these pill have such ridiculously varied effects on people. Same pill can be OK for one and horrible for other.

I AM curious if this has anything to do with extroversion, though? For me having outside world "cut out" or even having my "consumption of reality" slowed down is worse than being overstimulated.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny to me it's not masochistic... I just want to be able to fully experience life and be me, which for me medication makes me feel like I cannot do. (Which, again, I understand not everyone feels about medication. I am fully in support of people making their own decisions about medication, and if someone is being helped by medication I am very much in support of their using it. For me though it makes me feel... sick, in more ways than one.) 

Perhaps we should stop discussing this now. I think we've discussed medication enough now.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ to me it's not masochistic... I just want to be able to fully experience life and be me, which for me medication makes me feel like I cannot do. (Which, again, I understand not everyone feels about medication. I am fully in support of people making their own decisions about medication, and if someone is being helped by medication I am very much in support of their using it. For me though it makes me feel... sick, in more ways than one.)
> 
> Perhaps we should stop discussing this now. I think we've discussed medication enough now.


It seems we have different ideas of numbing down.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> That and in addition I think these pill have such ridiculously varied effects on people. Same pill can be OK for one and horrible for other.
> 
> I AM curious if this has anything to do with extroversion, though? For me having outside world "cut out" or even having my "consumption of reality" slowed down is worse than being overstimulated.


Oh, that is a different angle I wasn't considering. I know there are introverts who don't like medication and extroverts who do - I know quite a few extroverts who take anxiety and depression medication, actually - but maybe you're onto something. Hm. 

I think it's one of those things that probably cannot be too cognitively traced, but some things may be the same.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Last post I think I'm answering for a little while, sorry for any delays
> 
> Oh, I would not at all say these things make you a bad writer. Everyone struggles with something, even the best writers. We all have weak points. If anything, it's good that you can identify your writing weaknesses, so you can work to improve them to the best of your ability.
> 
> I also struggle with physical positioning in my writing, and that's something I have to plan it ahead of time. In the very first scene of my story story I know that the positioning seems to be very... tense, almost. Detailed. They start out playing a game of chess, so it's very awkward almost, the physical details subtle, and then within a few pages they're outside running and doing drastic physical things... My dad tends to tell me I am too long winded when I do action scenes. I describe them too poetically. He says I miss the feel for the action, the suspense, because my sentences aren't choppy, they're too descriptive and emotional... I'm working on that currently.
> 
> In another chapter, I know the positioning is very static. The scene starts with someone walking to another person's office, but the bulk of it takes place in the office, where essentially they're sitting down, and their physical movements only punctuate the emotion.
> 
> Ive never been told that emotion is hard to tell in my writing. Somehow my sentences and dialogue easily show what the character is feeling. This is probably an Fe vs Fi difference, I agree.
> 
> As for music, I actually usually don't listen to music when writing. Sometimes I might start, and I might do instrumental music, but most the time I don't because I'm afraid the specific and unrelated emotions in the song might inappropriately taint my writing. I mean if it's just a happy scene (which I rarely write, sad haha) I could listen to most Owl City songs on a loop since most his songs are happy with few other emotions on the surface, but if it's a sad scene there are just so many different types of negative emotions that I would be cautious to put songs on loop unless I made a specific playlist for the chapter (which I might do if the words just aren't flowing for me).
> 
> With me, I can usually stay on a topic with a story. I actually enjoy having a direction for writing, so I can meet what I need to with a little bit of creativity. I sometimes go deeper than I should with small stories, and I would struggle with being a young children's writer because of that, but I'm not certain I would go so off as to write a story like the one you described to my mother on Mother's Day... (Although your story does sound interesting, and I'm glad your mother liked it.)


True, it's good you're aware of yours too :happy: and glad to hear you have a family who seems supportive of it! Actually, I'm a member of a writing forum called Absolutewrite if you want a massive collection of writing discussion, tips etc. It's helped me a lot, but can be overwhelming at first.

I found I also had the issue of too-long sentences (which still haunts me today in first drafts of essays), but reading fast-paced books can help i.e. young adult, or novels like those by Dan Simmons (although Song of Kali is upsetting, so I don't recommend reading that one). The emotion is very important in a story though, so it's great you can do that naturally.

With the positioning being too static, I don't think it matters too much so long as the pieces of action you put between dialogue is realistic and described in an interesting way. 

I wonder if it's Se which makes someone more easily influenced by things like music. My friend (an Se user) told me not to talk about her story idea with her, because she was worried it would influence and then ruin it.

I don't know. If you've ever read a Robin Jarivs novel, you'll know you can get away with a lot in children's fiction. Actually The Sight was a very deep story, wasn't it?


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @shinynotshiny to me it's not masochistic... I just want to be able to fully experience life and be me, which for me medication makes me feel like I cannot do. (Which, again, I understand not everyone feels about medication. I am fully in support of people making their own decisions about medication, and if someone is being helped by medication I am very much in support of their using it. For me though it makes me feel... sick, in more ways than one.)
> 
> Perhaps we should stop discussing this now. I think we've discussed medication enough now.


Does make it a bit odd for the few people who aren't, though I still find it interesting how people cope with being reliant on an outside force, never liked that feeling myself. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Does make it a bit odd for the few people who aren't, though I still find it interesting how people cope with being reliant on an outside force, never liked that feeling myself. :wink:












lol no it's not personal. You just made me remember I've just come across people who compare taking a much-needed medication to addiction or even slavery.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> lol no it's not personal. You just made me remember I've just come across people who compare taking a much-needed medication to addiction or even slavery.


Haha, I don't consider it that bad, it's just another knot in the eventual rope that hangs you, to me. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Haha, I don't consider it that bad, it's just another knot in the eventual rope that hangs you, to me. :happy:


Barakiel oh Barakiel


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> lol no it's not personal. You just made me remember I've just come across people who compare taking a much-needed medication to addiction or even slavery.


And the people that go like "Just stop being sad, go outside, ride a bike!". Yey, depression defeated forever, Nobel prize. :dry:



alittlebear said:


> Oh, that is a different angle I wasn't considering. I know there are introverts who don't like medication and extroverts who do - I know quite a few extroverts who take anxiety and depression medication, actually - but maybe you're onto something. Hm.
> 
> I think it's one of those things that probably cannot be too cognitively traced, but some things may be the same.


I'll chalk those anomalies under "Different degree of numbing for different brain chemistries" and hold onto my E vs I theory for longer. :tongue:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Barakiel oh Barakiel


I'm decisively immune to Shakespeare, thank you very much. Always hated that him and his way of writing. :dry:
@Greyhart, yeah, sure, there's a whole world of depressing and dull out there, but better that than being cooped up inside all day, amirite? :dry:


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> And the people that go like "Just stop being sad, go outside, ride a bike!". Yey, depression defeated forever, Nobel prize. :dry:


It all comes down to the misconception that things like depression and anxiety are personality flaws rather than chemical bullshit going on in your brain roud:

Sure, we can argue about situational depression and the like, but come back to me when you've got a compelling argument for all the stuff that persists for years and doesn't respond to therapy.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> True, it's good you're aware of yours too :happy: and glad to hear you have a family who seems supportive of it! Actually, I'm a member of a writing forum called Absolutewrite if you want a massive collection of writing discussion, tips etc. It's helped me a lot, but can be overwhelming at first.
> 
> I found I also had the issue of too-long sentences (which still haunts me today in first drafts of essays), but reading fast-paced books can help i.e. young adult, or novels like those by Dan Simmons (although Song of Kali is upsetting, so I don't recommend reading that one). The emotion is very important in a story though, so it's great you can do that naturally.
> 
> With the positioning being too static, I don't think it matters too much so long as the pieces of action you put between dialogue is realistic and described in an interesting way.
> 
> I wonder if it's Se which makes someone more easily influenced by things like music. My friend (an Se user) told me not to talk about her story idea with her, because she was worried it would influence and then ruin it.
> 
> I don't know. If you've ever read a Robin Jarivs novel, you'll know you can get away with a lot in children's fiction. Actually The Sight was a very deep story, wasn't it?


Ah... I'm not sure if my family is super supportive, actually. My family is a very activity geared family. Why are you writing? You should be with the family. All you do is stay in your room, what are you doing? Writing? What the heck, at least do your homework. You need to be doing chores, all the time, if you're not playing a sport you should be helping around the house 24/7 or at least doing _something_ productive. They do not consider writing and reading productive. Of course I'm exaggerating a little without trying to and they would probably be more considerate and supportive now, but... I didn't write nearly as much as I would have liked in summers past because my parents were always shepherding me off to swim practice and the store and chores and errands. But... I mean, they're not too discouraging, comparatively I guess. 

I might join a writing forum... I was considering it, but I'm not sure yet. For one, I'm terrible at writing, and not really fit to share my writing... Honestly, I stink. But I think that a writing forum could be productive. I'll check yours out.  

Ah, I do that too, read sifferent stories so I can get an idea of how writers write, adopt certain aspects of their skills and styles into my own writing! 

I was actually going to mention how I think my Se influences my writing process. I know they say pacing is an Ne/Te thing, but I have to pace before, after, and during writing. Even essays. Or eat something in between. I guess I need that sensory stimulation to get my intuition working, sensory stimulation to reach those parts of my mind I need to. 

But I'm the same way about almost not wanting to tell people about my story ideas. I've been working on my communism story for... four years now, almost? My dad comes to me the other day with an article and he said "Hey, maybe you could use this for your story." (He can be very supportive in these ways  ) But on the inside, while I was very polite and smiled and nodded and read the article, of course, I was thinking "Dad!! My entire story is already laid out. I can't work this in, it's already all crystallized. Thanks, but no thanks." People can't get a feel for my true vision of the story most the time, and it's hard for me to accept their kindly meant suggestions because... they don't get it. They don't feel it. They don't see it like I do. And while I find their help kind,I'm can't have their misunderstanding of my story ruin my story until I'm producing it and they can really experience my vision as I mean for it to be experienced. 

I haven't heard of Robin Jarivs, I'll have to look him/her as well... But yes, David Clement-Davis is incredible. I need to reread The Sight and Fire Bringer to get a better idea of them again, but they were both incredible, I clearly remember. (I loved Larka and... gosh, not Fell but her friend... The characters I really loved were Elend in Fire Bringer though. Elend is so wonderful. I love strong, altruistic mother figures. Elend is a splendid example of one. I just love her courage, her spirit, her heart... Gah.)


----------



## Immolate

:O

I like "wimpy" men. Now I'm trying to think of some characters.


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> Do you think I'm introverted then?


Sometimes I swear I am an ASTJ. 

Some weeks I am extroverted to kingdom come, and sometimes I hardly do anything for a week. 
I'm weird like that.
Lels.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I do the same thing, having to say, "That was sarcasm..." and trying to explain that really I'm fine, I'm just thinking. (Although more often I'm trying to explain to my family that my talking differently on the phone than to them does not mean I love them any less. It's just a change in voice inflection that happens when I talk to different people, and I really can't help it.)
> 
> Yes, INFPs and ISTJs definitely appear stony as well, and in a way that so far I don't think I've encountered with the SFJs I know. I think it depends on the different functions - Fi tends to be stony, and Ni can be that way too - and what they do when they're stony, how they react to being stony, etc.


sometimes I wonder if I'm not Fi haha. I think maybe I just get confused because I had to adapt to use/show more Fe. I asked my SO if I've ever appeared "stony" or "cold" and he said that I can appear inscrutable, but that there is a softness that makes me approachable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I treat showing emotions as a form of communication (a pretty important one when your mom is Fe-dom), so I made myself show some of my emotions to the point where it has become somewhat automatic. That said, I definitely get reserved when I don't wish to communicate emotions (say I don't feel the person is going to be receptive or kind), or if there is too much going on and I don't know where to direct emotion. Or if I'm contemplating something I can get inward and intense.

I think both Ni and Ti also create stoniness. Before learning about Ni and Ti I would sometimes get insecure when talking to my SO because he would show no visible signs that he was engaged in the conversation. I'd go "oh I'm boring him" or "he thinks I'm an idiot". What I've learned is that he was actually considering what I said quite seriously, that he retreated inward to think it over!


----------



## 68097

Don't get me wrong; I like a lot of Fe-dom male characters. My favorite is Monroe on Grimm. But Peeta just ... sigh. I'm sorry, I don't want to bash him, because I know people love him. I just can't. I was asked my reason, and that's what it is. When *I* feel like I am stronger emotionally than the male lead, I feel disconnected from the story.


----------



## Barakiel

On the topic of The Hunger Games, I didn't like any of the main leads, but Peeta was the one I hated the least, cause he actually seemed to be playing the game that Katniss just plain refused to. Though that's probably just cause I think Haymitch is brilliant. :kitteh: I don't mind wimpy male characters, so long as they grow beyond that characterization, it's part of the reason why I have such a love-hate relationship with most anime protagonist, so bland, yet so much potential beyond that. :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

<---- *both liked and was critical of Katniss, Peeta, and Gale* ^^;;;


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> On the topic of The Hunger Games, I didn't like any of the main leads, but Peeta was the one I hated the least, cause he actually seemed to be playing the game that Katniss just plain refused to. Though that's probably just cause I think Haymitch is brilliant. :kitteh: I don't mind wimpy male characters, so long as they grow beyond that characterization, it's part of the reason why I have such a love-hate relationship with most anime protagonist, so bland, yet so much potential beyond that. :happy:


Help me think of "wimpy" characters.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Help me think of "wimpy" characters.


Shinji Ikari is the first to come to mind. (at least it is something he is often accused of being)


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Shinji Ikari is the first to come to mind. (at least it is something he is often accused of being)


Yup, Shinji Ikari, a brilliant example of wimpy done *right*. Amazing deconstruction of the ace pilot trope, really, so much so that people hate him for being unheroic and cowardly. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Yup, Shinji Ikari, a brilliant example of wimpy done *right*. Amazing deconstruction of the ace pilot trope, really, so much so that people hate him for being unheroic and cowardly. :laughing:


I haven't watched Evangelion :blushed:

"unheroic and cowardly done right" stirred a memory but I can't place it.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I haven't watched Evangelion :blushed:
> 
> "unheroic and cowardly done right" stirred a memory but I can't place it.


Plz watch it, if only for the experience of watching the budget of a show _slowly dwindle down to nothing_. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Don't get me wrong; I like a lot of Fe-dom male characters. My favorite is Monroe on Grimm. But Peeta just ... sigh. I'm sorry, I don't want to bash him, because I know people love him. I just can't. I was asked my reason, and that's what it is. When *I* feel like I am stronger emotionally than the male lead, I feel disconnected from the story.


I think that's understandable. I hate to admit it, but feminine leads who are strong in a masculine way rather than strong in a feminine way (because they know how to love fully, because they are altruistic, because they care compassionate and kind-hearted) definitely rub me the wrong way, even though I know that's an opinion that would certainly rub a lot of people the wrong way.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Help me think of "wimpy" characters.


Luke Skywalker

who I can't stand but I mean 

Oh! Wimpy male character I like: Dimmesdale from the book _The Scarlet Letter_. In the movie he's terrible, but in the book he is so adorable. Kind of a bad person, but such a poor victimized bad person that my heart can't help but go out to him.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I think that's understandable. I hate to admit it, but feminine leads who are strong in a masculine way rather than strong in a feminine way (because they know how to love fully, because they are altruistic, because they care compassionate and kind-hearted) definitely rub me the wrong way, even though I know that's an opinion that would certainly rub a lot of people the wrong way.


Yeah. Don't say that too loud. Feminists will come get you. 

I LOVE strong female characters. Totally. But I also want them to be feminine. Not emotional, necessarily, but ... not men with lady parts either, if that makes any sense. (In fairness, I get annoyed with SUPER EMOTIONAL female characters too. I just ... have a bias in favor of logic. Logic is sexy to me. Maybe because I wish I had way more of it?)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh! And, you know him, @shinynotshiny, Armin from SNK. I adore him. I don't know if he would count as wimpy, but he's definitely not traditionally masculine but still manages to be absolutely awesome.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Luke Skywalker
> 
> who I can't stand but I mean
> 
> Oh! Wimpy male character I like: Dimmesdale from the book _The Scarlet Letter_. In the movie he's terrible, but in the book he is so adorable. Kind of a bad person, but such a poor victimized bad person that my heart can't help but go out to him.


Oh yeah, I actually don't like Luke, cause when I'm watching _The Empire Strikes Back_, I can't help thinking "Man, can you not complain for five seconds?" Then again, Yoda was being deliberately obtuse in some subtle trolling, but still. :wink: Haven't read the _The Scarlet Letter_ or seen it, so I can't judge on that front.

Also, @fair phantom, what do you think of Asuka? The original, not the whole Rebuild thing, since I haven't seen that. I'm tied between loving her arrogance, or hating it. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

I'm only finding AMVs ugh youtube fails me.

I'm older than this blondie now and I want to hug him:










I mean, he can gut you without remorse but he's all soft inside.

Strong and masculine women? Don't get me started:



















^They're friends, don't worry.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Oh! And, you know him, @shinynotshiny, Armin from SNK. I adore him. I don't know if he would count as wimpy, but he's definitely not traditionally masculine but still manages to be absolutely awesome.


I think Armin starts out as wimpy but really grows as a character. Love him.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Oh! And, you know him, @shinynotshiny, Armin from SNK. I adore him. I don't know if he would count as wimpy, but he's definitely not traditionally masculine but still manages to be absolutely awesome.


Armin... urgh. I should like him, but he's just in the background a lot. Now, I *HATE* Eren, and Mikasa's just awesome, but Armin... it's hard to explain, but I just don't have much of an opinion on him.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh! And, you know him, @_shinynotshiny_, Armin from SNK. I adore him. I don't know if he would count as wimpy, but he's definitely not traditionally masculine but still manages to be absolutely awesome.


Yeah, I thought about Armin but I like my characters smart _and _tragic lol

But you're right. Not manly.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm only finding AMVs ugh youtube fails me.
> 
> I'm older than this blondie now and I want to hug him:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, he can gut you without remorse but he's all soft inside.
> 
> Strong and masculine women? Don't get me started:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^They're friends, don't worry.


On the Ghost in the Shell and DA2 clips, *YES*! So many times, yes! :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

wait wait I found it


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Yeah. Don't say that too loud. Feminists will come get you.
> 
> I LOVE strong female characters. Totally. But I also want them to be feminine. Not emotional, necessarily, but ... not men with lady parts either, if that makes any sense. (In fairness, I get annoyed with SUPER EMOTIONAL female characters too. I just ... have a bias in favor of logic. Logic is sexy to me. Maybe because I wish I had way more of it?)


Honestly Mary Stuart (in the first season, I think she goes a bit way off course with her altruism in Season 2) is my ideal heroine. She's strong, she's halfway politically savvy, she defends those who need it, she is not just a wife and refuses to let anyone walk all over her... but she's still so kind, so generous, so caring, so thoughtful, so loving, so strong in her acceptance of her own fragility. I love that. 

Another female character I love is one who no one is familiar with... but she's awesome, and someone that I think any feminist would love. Risa Ward from the _Unwind_ Dystology. She's incredible. She thinks fast, moves fast, is probably an ISTP, will tell you off and kick you if you try to kiss her... but she's still gentle. She works as a nurse. She has wonderful maternal instincts. She is gentle but rough when she needs to be, strong but also with realistic weaknesses. Lovely, really. 

But I can't stand Katniss, Tris, Clarke from The 100, or other characters of that sort... I mean I'm not a Bella fan either, but this Super Strong And Fearless Female Character Who Is Subverting Gender Roles With Her Lack Of Feminine Weakness thing gets on my nerves significantly.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> wait wait I found it


Hard to argue that a character that can shoot a sniper rifle at a mech, *one handed*, *and close range*, isn't badass. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

/mentions SNK/

/suddenly gets five new post quotes/

I actually watched it for Armin. The other characters were cute and interesting, but Armin was truly wonderful.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> But I can't stand Katniss, Tris, Clarke from The 100, or other characters of that sort... I mean I'm not a Bella fan either, but this Super Strong And Fearless Female Character Who Is Subverting Gender Roles With Her Lack Of Feminine Weakness thing gets on my nerves significantly.


OR

Sometimes women just don't care, and I think it's important to stop thinking of strength / fearlessness and other "masculine" traits as masculine, just as we should stop thinking of sensitivity / emotions as feminine, and so on.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Hard to argue that a character that can shoot a sniper rifle at a mech, *one handed*, *and close range*, isn't badass. :laughing:


That scene was glorious.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> OR
> 
> Sometimes women just don't care, and I think it's important to stop thinking of strength / fearlessness and other "masculine" traits as masculine, just as we should stop thinking of sensitivity / emotions as feminine, and so on.


True about that. I was trying to use language that matched, but I did recognize that the qualities I was using were not actually feminine or masculine. 

Regardless, I don't like female characters who forget the value of true love and compassion. Who are too outwardly strong, and reject weakness entirely. Honestly it's because I can't relate to them at all.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Oh yeah, I actually don't like Luke, cause when I'm watching _The Empire Strikes Back_, I can't help thinking "Man, can you not complain for five seconds?" Then again, Yoda was being deliberately obtuse in some subtle trolling, but still. :wink: Haven't read the _The Scarlet Letter_ or seen it, so I can't judge on that front.
> 
> Also, @fair phantom, what do you think of Asuka? The original, not the whole Rebuild thing, since I haven't seen that. I'm tied between loving her arrogance, or hating it. :laughing:


Even though I hate some of her behavior, and would probably get into shouting matches with her if we ever met, _I love Asuka_. My heart breaks for her. Her backstory haunts me. Her arrogance can be entertaining, endearing, infuriating...but ultimately it makes me feel for her because I can see the desperation in it. She needs to believe she is great. She can't stop herself from being aggressively alienating to people she wants a connection with because the thought of being vulnerable again is so intolerable. And _End of Evangelion_ solidified her as one of my favourite characters.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> /mentions SNK/
> 
> /suddenly gets five new post quotes/
> 
> I actually watched it for Armin. The other characters were cute and interesting, but Armin was truly wonderful.


I mainly watched it cause a friend recommended it to me, and I probably would have watched it anyway cause everyone on the net never shuts up about how amazing it is... seriously, this is a major case of hype backlash for me. :dry:

Anyway, to contribute to the masculine women topic, I'd say a good example is Lara Croft from the Tomb Raider reboot.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Even though I hate some of her behavior, and would probably get into shouting matches with her if we ever met, _I love Asuka_. My heart breaks for her. Her backstory haunts me. Her arrogance can be entertaining, endearing, infuriating...but ultimately it makes me feel for her because I can see the desperation in it. She needs to believe she is great. She can't stop herself from being aggressively alienating to people she wants a connection with because the thought of being vulnerable again is so intolerable. And _End of Evangelion_ solidified her as one of my favourite characters.


Heh, fair enough, my favorite character, even though they're all horribly broken, would have to be Misato. But that's a topic for another day. My main beef with Asuka is how she deals with Shinji, which really annoys me, even though her backstory is horribly depressing and kind of removed the unlikable bits of her character due to her being the universe's chew toy along with Shinji. :laughing: I haven't seen _End of Evangelion_ though, mainly cause I actually liked the ending, and didn't find the movie necessary as an alternate. I know, shocking! :dry:


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> True about that. I was trying to use language that matched, but I did recognize that the qualities I was using were not actually feminine or masculine.
> 
> Regardless, I don't like female characters who forget the value of true love and compassion. Who are too outwardly strong, and reject weakness entirely. Honestly it's because I can't relate to them at all.


Masculine, sword & shield warrior who takes a beating for the team. Also has a heart.


----------



## Immolate

wait wait I love this guy:






and he likes the color pink (also hot chocolate with marshmallows):


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Masculine, sword & shield warrior who takes a beating for the team. Also has a heart.


She seems pretty cool.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> She seems pretty cool.


Yeah, she is, although I gravitate more to the snarky characters like Isabella and Snarky!Hawke (yeah, the fanbase calls him that. :kitteh: ). She is a rather good example of the masculine woman, however.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> She seems pretty cool.


Protecting her husband~


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> True about that. I was trying to use language that matched, but I did recognize that the qualities I was using were not actually feminine or masculine.
> 
> Regardless, I don't like female characters who forget the value of true love and compassion.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you don't like when male characters do this either? 

(what follows is a general statement, not directed at alittlebear)

My problem is when female characters are judged more harshly then the men. Especially on things like being compassionate/kind/nice. I love compassionate men.

I think my favourite characters tend to be a mix of what is socially considered "masculine" and "feminine". I think rigid gender norms are bad for people. Not that I judge anyone for what they personally find more appealing. And I admire the honesty that people are displaying in this thread.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Protecting her husband~


That got a big "aww" from me. I'm reminded of Eowyn. What game is this?


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Heh, fair enough, my favorite character, even though they're all horribly broken, would have to be Misato. But that's a topic for another day. My main beef with Asuka is how she deals with Shinji, which really annoys me, even though her backstory is horribly depressing and kind of removed the unlikable bits of her character due to her being the universe's chew toy along with Shinji. :laughing: I haven't seen _End of Evangelion_ though, mainly cause I actually liked the ending, and didn't find the movie necessary as an alternate. I know, shocking! :dry:


Misato is also wonderful! 

OH _END OF EVANGELION_ IS SO GOOD. I highly recommend it


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That got a big "aww" from me. I'm reminded of Eowyn. What game is this?


Dragon Age 2, although it's controversial among fans.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh please, @_alittlebear_, don't feed their egos, soon they'll be as greedy as Kirby. :dry:


:th_jtteglad:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> :th_jtteglad:


Oh my gosh, and I just rematches the music video you linked there too. Knowing it was about social issues, especially race, helped a lot. It should have been obvious, but sometimes I need a guiding hand to land on that stuff. Honestly I'm amazed. That was great. Does it make sense for an FJ to enjoy TJ/FP songs? Because I really liked that one.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh, and I just rematches the music video you linked there too. Knowing it was about social issues, especially race, helped a lot. It should have been obvious, but sometimes I need a guiding hand to land on that stuff. Honestly I'm amazed. That was great. Does it make sense for an FJ to enjoy TJ/FP songs? Because I really liked that one.


Why wouldn't it make sense? :tongue:

(I have my sappy feely moments :th_blush


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@shinynotshiny,

(I was going to say I'm sorry for derailing the thread, but then I realized that this thread has been derailed forever)

I was wondering, are you sure on INTJ?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Why wouldn't it make sense? :tongue:
> 
> (I have my sappy feely moments :th_blush


I don't know, I've always had this idea that it doesn't make sense to like things outside your four functions. Silly maybe, but I feel like it's an unspoken thing that a lot of people here go by? 

Hopefully I'm wrong. I mean, I know I'm wrong. I love Owl City, and I think we all knows he's INFP. And I love several characters who don't share my functions at all, and shows geared away from audiences with my function use. But it's just weird, like I feel as if I should be liking artists and characters especially with my functions more.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Why wouldn't it make sense? :tongue:
> 
> (I have my sappy feely moments :th_blush





TelepathicGoose said:


> @shinynotshiny,
> 
> (I was going to say I'm sorry for derailing the thread, but then I realized that this thread has been derailed forever)
> 
> I was wondering, are you sure on INTJ?


Talking about 'Te' Users feeling 'sappy', even I, as an 'ESTJ' appear to have my sappy moments. Some days I feel like I could float on air. It's weird. I am in touch with my awkward, nerdy effeminate side. I get all weird and giggly and a little emotional. I hate it and try to supress it as much as I can. But the next day, I am back to being hardcore, logical, serious and macho.

What even is this? My feelings are trolling me.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Talking about 'Te' Users feeling 'sappy', even I, as an 'ESTJ' appear to have my sappy moments. Some days I feel like I could float on air. It's weird. I am in touch with my awkward, nerdy effeminate side. I get all weird and giggly and a little emotional. I hate it and try to supress it as much as I can. But the next day, I am back to being hardcore, logical, serious and macho.
> 
> What even is this? My feelings are trolling me.


You can't be perfectly stoic all the time, sometimes your emotions come out.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Talking about 'Te' Users feeling 'sappy', even I, as an 'ESTJ' appear to have my sappy moments. Some days I feel like I could float on air. It's weird. I am in touch with my awkward, nerdy effeminate side. I get all weird and giggly and a little emotional. I hate it and try to supress it as much as I can. But the next day, I am back to being hardcore, logical, serious and macho.
> 
> What even is this? My feelings are trolling me.


You sound like my ETJ friend. He talks all about how much he admires women for their feminine qualities, and how he's always trying to get in touch with his feminine side, how he sees himself as quite feminine even though externally that isn't the case at all. It's really interesting to me how when you hear him talk he likes to channel the gooey parts of him and share them with you so openly sometimes. (But that might be because I was his best friend for a few years and an NFJ... apparently people open up to us really well.)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I don't know,move always had this idea that it doesn't make sense to like things outside your four functions. Silly maybe, but I feel like it's an unspoken thing that a lot of people here go by?
> 
> Hopefully I'm wrong. I mean, I know I'm wrong. I love Owl City, and I think we all knows he's INFP. And I love several characters who don't share my functions at all, and shows geared away from audiences with my function use. But it's just weird, like I feel as if I should be liking artists and characters especially with my functions more.


I think if we only engage with things of our functions we limit our development and wind up in a bubble.

But I don't even know what I am anymore so *shrug*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I think if we only engage with things of our functions we limit our development and wind up in a bubble.
> 
> But I don't even know what I am anymore so *shrug*


Yeah. As I thought that, I realized, "That would be pretty stupid, only staying inside things that matched your own thought process. I'm going to go out of my way even more to engage with media that represents functions different from mine now." 

Aww, what are you doubting? (I probably can't help, but perhaps someone can.)


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> You can't be perfectly stoic all the time, sometimes your emotions come out.


Is it fair enough to compare myself to an action movie actor, someone really serious like Danny Trejo? We all know he acts the macho tough guy, the man with a plan in movies like Machete, but irl he's nice and likes to have a laugh and is actually pretty opne about things from what I see of him.



alittlebear said:


> You sound like my ETJ friend. He talks all about how much he admires women for their feminine qualities, and how he's always trying to get in touch with his feminine side, how he sees himself as quite feminine even though externally that isn't the case at all. It's really interesting to me how when you hear him talk he likes to channel the gooey parts of him and share them with you so openly sometimes. (But that might be because I was his best friend for a few years and an NFJ... apparently people open up to us really well.)


Yes, exactly. I think *THIS* is where Hector came from. My character Hector, is incredibly feminine. He lives inside me. I'm not very open about him, irl. I like Hector to stay in my head, until I find someone (or some people) open enough to share him with. To be fair, I'm not incredibly open, until I warm to you and know I can trust you (or like your character).


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Aww, what are you doubting? (I probably can't help, but perhaps someone can.)


Meh it goes back to the Neil Gaiman thread. I pushed past the feelings for a bit but now the uncertainty is back.

I don't think I'm an INFP anymore, or I don't want to be an INFP, but I don't know what else I can be?

Basically it goes back to this Fi-dom definition:



> The proverb 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and not infrequently their temperament is melancholic. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. Since they submit the control of their lives to their subjectively orientated feeling, their true motives generally remain concealed. Their outward demeanour is harmonious and inconspicuous; they reveal a delightful repose, a sympathetic parallelism, which has no desire to affect others, either to impress, influence, or change them in any way. Should this outer side be somewhat emphasized, a suspicion of neglectfulness and coldness may easily obtrude itself, which not seldom increases to a real indifference for the comfort and well-being of others.


I recoil from this description. I don't think I am this way and if I am I don't want to be. But apparently if I am not this way then I am not an INFP. So what am I?

Sorry it is all very boring and angsty and stupid.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I recoil from this description. I don't think I am this way and if I am I don't want to be. But apparently if I am not this way then I am not an INFP. So what am I?
> 
> Sorry it is all very boring and angsty and stupid.


That's a stupid description of Fi, at least to me, it seems more like Fe. :dry:


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> @_shinynotshiny_,
> 
> (I was going to say I'm sorry for derailing the thread, but then I realized that this thread has been derailed forever)
> 
> I was wondering, are you sure on INTJ?


What's your impression?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> What's your impression?


You do _not_ strike me as an SJ, so I'd go with INTJ. As well as the fact that you seem significantly more Ni/Se than Si/Ne in general.

I've never met an INTJ in person, however, because the only "INTJ" I know is an ISTJ in denial. So, I don't have any Te data in the INTJ field, however.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> You do _not_ strike me as an SJ, so I'd go with INTJ. As well as the fact that you seem significantly more Ni/Se than Si/Ne in general.
> 
> I've never met an INTJ in person, however, because the only "INTJ" I know is an ISTJ in denial. So, I don't have any Te data in the INTJ field, however.


It's between ISTJ and INTJ, and I lean INTJ through process of elimination because I still can't relate to Si, especially as described by ISTJs in the forum.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> It's between ISTJ and INTJ, and I lean INTJ through process of elimination because I still can't relate to Si, especially as described by ISTJs in the forum.


I would agree with that.

However, I want to know- what is your experience with Ni? Why do you think you have Ni and can you use an example for it like @alittlebear can? Tons of functions can be mistaken for Ni, because it's so selective and intricate, so I want to just make sure.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> I would agree with that.
> 
> However, I want to know- what is your experience with Ni? Why do you think you have Ni and can you use an example for it like @alittlebear can? Tons of functions can be mistaken for Ni, because it's so selective and intricate, so I want to just make sure.


To be fair, introverted functions in general can come across as being like each other, because they are so abstract and subjective to the user. We only have a rough guide, as told through experiences and proven through experiments. Extroverted functions are objective on the other hand, thus easier to prove. We have more proof of them because they are based around the real world, and how it functions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> That's a stupid description of Fi, at least to me, it seems more like Fe. :dry:


That's Jung's description of Fi...


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> That's Jung's description of Fi...


Huh, really? Well, shows what I know, I guess.

In my defense, though, Fi users aren't really like that, in my experience, at least.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Why are all of you ridiculously sweet? 

Yes, I'll probably end up just staying in the Personality Forums. I remember first just minimizing that part of the forum on my screen when I got here, and I'll just have to do that again. After all, you guys are so kind and this part of the forum is really very helpful (and usually educational and fun, not controversial and heated). I'll just have to learn how to control my not-getting-involved-in-stupid-stuff abilities. 

Thank you again for all of your kindnesses; you have all cheered me up significantly, and it really means a lot to me.


----------



## Greyhart

Because the bunch you gathered here are really interesting and varied people and we'd go down without because you are the linchpin here.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Please do not drive yourself away just for the love of others' opinions about you. I mean it, show the strength within yourself to stay on top of their opinions, you are strong and independent, no matter your self confidence, it strengthens itself with the musicality of time and as I know, time is on your side. Be unique and independent, write an essay about your thoughts or discover new ways of self expression but do not stray away for the beliefs and values of others (very Fi answer, I am aware but I mean it). If you truly feel it within yourself, I respect that but others should have no value in your clarification of thought and way of feeling/thinking. Show haters that your soul blooms everyday by remaining yourself. (... she tells the Fe dom in all hope she will listen)


----------



## Greyhart

Damn u FPs so nice Dx


----------



## AdInfinitum

Until I beat you with my unfortunate Ne. That is how nice I am.


----------



## Max

NobleRaven said:


> Until I beat you with my unfortunate Ne. That is how nice I am.


Ne is unfortunate? It's my secret weapon :3


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> Please do not drive yourself away just for the love of others' opinions about you. I mean it, show the strength within yourself to stay on top of their opinions, you are strong and independent, no matter your self confidence, it strengthens itself with the musicality of time and as I know, time is on your side. Be unique and independent, write an essay about your thoughts or discover new ways of self expression but do not stray away for the beliefs and values of others (very Fi answer, I am aware but I mean it). If you truly feel it within yourself, I respect that but others should have no value in your clarification of thought and way of feeling/thinking. Show haters that your soul blooms everyday by remaining yourself. (... she tells the Fe dom in all hope she will listen)


You are so wonderfully poetic, and it apologize ahead of time that my words are not going to match your music. 

Thank you for the words. I suppose you're referring to my stances in other topics...? Sorry for being so clueless. I mean, I feel bad discussing it here because that feels like gossip (although I guess I started that last night...) but I mean... I know I'm right. That's mean, but I am. I said it once here, and I really think it's true - ignorance of someone's undeniably humanity is the most false and most dangerous ignorance of all. And that really doesn't make me naive... It's just the truth, one of the most obvious truths of the world. But the thing is, you can't just say that... people don't care. It doesn't make logical sense I guess, even though it is honestly pretty obvious (like gravity, to me at least). Someday I'm going to have to learn how to defend this premise of innate human... humanity (yes it sounds stupid because obviously humans are human and you can't prove that humanity, it just is, even typing it out sounds stupid because it's so obvious... people don't get that though), but at the moment all I have is my ethos and pathos and I've always believed that ethos trumps any logos one might have, but it seems that others do not agree. And until I find my logos arguments for innate humanity, I'm really running in circles here and being quite useless in other parts of the forum (just getting myself upset and annoying others) 

So... yes. That's a bit much and I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to - I'm unsure if you were referring to my drama in other parts of the forum or my thoughts to stay here because I love you guys - but I figured it was probably the former so I responded to that. 

I feel so ridiculous even talking about that though. I've already thought over this humanity thing in my head so many times, and thought over how other people are reacting to it... Of course I'm still right but ultimately I'm going to have to seek out already pounded into the universe philosophical arguments to justify that. That's really my only option, I think, in regards to my participation in other parts of the forum. (Other than maybe the Book Forum. I could get in an argument about Daenerys, but I've been there done that.) 

(So sorry if I'm way off base and this isn't what you meant at all. I'll delete this immediately if that's the case.) 

Thank you so much for your kind words, NobleRaven. They are always, always so beautiful. And, Fe dom or not, I actually do agree with you. I appreciate you reminding me of this, though. It is very helpful to my soul, I think.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Damn u FPs so nice Dx


I know. I would just say "Take care of yourself! Know that you are always welcome here!" with an ambiguous but basic smiley face.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I know. I would just say "Take care of yourself! Know that you are always welcome here!" with an ambiguous but basic smiley face.











Everything is going to be fine.


----------



## Max

@alittlebear - I just wanna hug you right now, you know? You're such a lovely person. Ignore the haters. Ignore those opinions different to your own. You are you, and you have your own opinions. They are still as valid as anyone else's.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Everything is going to be fine.


Yes. Sorry for being so over dramatic and declarative last night. I was going through a kind of sad moment. Thank you group for not getting annoyed to the point of leaving though. I really appreciate your kindnesses and friendship.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @alittlebear - I just wanna hug you right now, you know? You're such a lovely person. Ignore the haters. Ignore those opinions different to your own. You are you, and you have your own opinions. They are still as valid as anyone else's.


Thank you, Lucho.  I will keep that in mind, _and_ accept your virtual hug.


----------



## Greyhart

Guys, I'm sorry I'm tagging the blanket but I'm stressed because IDK if should I post my video questionnaire or am I being really obnoxious about my type at this point? I mean if I am ENTP or ENFP or something else in my video I could use it later as an example? And if I AM ENTP in the video I might stop wondering if I am Fi still?..


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Guys, I'm sorry I'm tagging the blanket but I'm stressed because IDK if should I post my video questionnaire or am I being really obnoxious about my type at this point? I mean if I am ENTP or ENFP or something else in my video I could use it later as an example? And if I AM ENTP in the video I might stop wondering if I am Fi still?..


Just go for it! It's not going to cause any harm :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Guys, I'm sorry I'm tagging the blanket but I'm stressed because IDK if should I post my video questionnaire or am I being really obnoxious about my type at this point? I mean if I am ENTP or ENFP or something else in my video I could use it later as an example? And if I AM ENTP in the video I might stop wondering if I am Fi still?..


Post it only if you feel comfortable! I'm also pretty convinced that you're a perfect ENTP, and a bit confused why you ever doubted it, but I know posting a video and getting type confirmation from that greatly helped me, and I think it could help ease your doubts as well.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Guys, I'm sorry I'm tagging the blanket but I'm stressed because IDK if should I post my video questionnaire or am I being really obnoxious about my type at this point? I mean if I am ENTP or ENFP or something else in my video I could use it later as an example? And if I AM ENTP in the video I might stop wondering if I am Fi still?..


I say you should post it. As you said, it would be a great reference for the future, would be able to get you a better, in depth analysis of your functions, and would also narrow thinhs down for you. I know you might be nervous, but this is tne internet. We would all love to put in our two cents, and help you clear up your type.


----------



## Greyhart

I'm not "shy" about it I just think I've gone through 3 questionnaires at this point and it starts to look like self-obsession. >_>'


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I'm not "shy" about it I just think I've gone through 3 questionnaires at this point and it starts to look like self-obsession. >_>'


Have you seen the length of my topic? Or my list of typing threads on the first post? If anyone has to be worried about bordering on self obsession, it's certainly not you. 

Post your video. I really don't think any of us would mind in the least.


----------



## Greyhart

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...4-video-questionnaire-im-obnoxious-point.html


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> You are so wonderfully poetic, and it apologize ahead of time that my words are not going to match your music.
> 
> Thank you for the words. I suppose you're referring to my stances in other topics...? Sorry for being so clueless. I mean, I feel bad discussing it here because that feels like gossip (although I guess I started that last night...) but I mean... I know I'm right. That's mean, but I am. I said it once here, and I really think it's true - ignorance of someone's undeniably humanity is the most false and most dangerous ignorance of all. And that really doesn't make me naive... It's just the truth, one of the most obvious truths of the world. But the thing is, you can't just say that... people don't care. It doesn't make logical sense I guess, even though it is honestly pretty obvious (like gravity, to me at least). Someday I'm going to have to learn how to defend this premise of innate human... humanity (yes it sounds stupid because obviously humans are human and you can't prove that humanity, it just is, even typing it out sounds stupid because it's so obvious... people don't get that though), but at the moment all I have is my ethos and pathos and I've always believed that ethos trumps any logos one might have, but it seems that others do not agree. And until I find my logos arguments for innate humanity, I'm really running in circles here and being quite useless in other parts of the forum (just getting myself upset and annoying others)
> 
> So... yes. That's a bit much and I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to - I'm unsure if you were referring to my drama in other parts of the forum or my thoughts to stay here because I love you guys - but I figured it was probably the former so I responded to that.
> 
> I feel so ridiculous even talking about that though. I've already thought over this humanity thing in my head so many times, and thought over how other people are reacting to it... Of course I'm still right but ultimately I'm going to have to seek out already pounded into the universe philosophical arguments to justify that. That's really my only option, I think, in regards to my participation in other parts of the forum. (Other than maybe the Book Forum. I could get in an argument about Daenerys, but I've been there done that.)
> 
> (So sorry if I'm way off base and this isn't what you meant at all. I'll delete this immediately if that's the case.)
> 
> Thank you so much for your kind words, NobleRaven. They are always, always so beautiful. And, Fe dom or not, I actually do agree with you. I appreciate you reminding me of this, though. It is very helpful to my soul, I think.


Most people do not straightforwardly grasp depth so easily. Even myself and I am a Ne dom (I discovered it through my inferior Si with the help of westlose) keep doubting my type because at times I see one truth, running around eachother, exploding and collapsing into particles of uniqueness but that thought can not stay within the barriers of my mind, I keep expanding it to the point of an absurd world. I have learnt to be more open minded in terms of this singular connection (quite the irony with Ne, isn't it so?) and I accept it and watch Ni users with delight... because they have such an unique mind. I am more of an idea whore than of a singular idea seeker however I do take great pleasure in the minds of Ni's. They make me feel ... like the truth is running within me. 

No matter your beliefs and the way your heart dies whenever someone inflicts pain into the realms of your mind, do not let yourself conquered, you are not a part of the crowd, no matter how much you love people, you are unique and your mind and understanding is one of a kind so remember that when you want to give up on a focus due to external causes( even if it a mere, kerosen-like, volatile forum), keep it within yourself.

I was referring to your decision of leaving due to the drama inflicted, to be honest, you will never make eyes rise if the back of their irises is not deeply offended, challenge them and even that one dissolute moment when their minds process the information, you know you have obliged change within themselves in terms of mind broadening or mind sharpening. And to be honest, you are one Fe dom I do not feel like I should pull my hair out when reading their posts, for years I have loathed the idea but you are one exception and maybe it is due to your Ni but I feel as if you give too much of yourself out there in order to find acceptance within others. Remember to let them be free for a second, they will come back to you like poplar puffs driven on the wings of wind, they just need to seek within themselves first.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> I'm not "shy" about it I just think I've gone through 3 questionnaires at this point and it starts to look like self-obsession. >_>'


Oh please, I've been through 5 or more, and self obsession is fine. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> Most people do not straightforwardly grasp depth so easily. Even myself and I am a Ne dom (I discovered it through my inferior Si with the help of westlose) keep doubting my type because at times I see one truth, running around eachother, exploding and collapsing into particles of uniqueness but that thought can not stay within the barriers of my mind, I keep expanding it to the point of an absurd world. I have learnt to be more open minded in terms of this singular connection (quite the irony with Ne, isn't it so?) and I accept it and watch Ni users with delight... because they have such an unique mind. I am more of an idea whore than of a singular idea seeker however I do take great pleasure in the minds of Ni's. They make me feel ... like the truth is running within me.
> 
> No matter your beliefs and the way your heart dies whenever someone inflicts pain into the realms of your mind, do not let yourself conquered, you are not a part of the crowd, no matter how much you love people, you are unique and your mind and understanding is one of a kind so remember that when you want to give up on a focus due to external causes( even if it a mere, kerosen-like, volatile forum), keep it within yourself.
> 
> I was referring to your decision of leaving due to the drama inflicted, to be honest, you will never make eyes rise if the back of their irises is not deeply offended, challenge them and even that one dissolute moment when their minds process the information, you know you have obliged change within themselves in terms of mind broadening or mind sharpening. And to be honest, you are one Fe dom I do not feel like I should pull my hair out when reading their posts, for years I have loathed the idea but you are one exception and maybe it is due to your Ni but I feel as if you give too much of yourself out there in order to find acceptance within others. Remember to let them be free for a second, they will come back to you like poplar puffs driven on the wings of wind, they just need to seek within themselves first.


Thank you again for your kind words. You are too sweet in description of Ni and how I fit into it. (And again, so poetic. I don't know hot you balance your ideas, but it seems to me that the most beautiful ones pop out when they need to for you. I know I'm not fully grasping what you are experiencing, but your ideas seem like... a stream, almost. Your words do, at least. Your ideas channel into the, in a very pretty, beautiful, and I hope (because your ideas here are so comforting to me) true way. 

I may be Fe-dom, but I don't give up the ideas I choose very easily. If I know something is something, I stand by it... especially in regards to if something truly hurts people or not. If something hurts people, nothing someone theoretically argues on the alternative will change me from recognizing - this idea is harmful. This idea will hurt people. This idea will bring pain to the world. (And that's actually where I get into most my arguments [although I have gotten into a few petty ones on the sode] - you can be ignorant all you want, but when you have harmful ideas that hurt people, I have no idea how to not step in and go "No. Stop.") 

I do hope you're right about their minds being opened with my words, though. That's why I do it. No, they won't listen, but perhaps the idea of well "not being mean to people" essentially will stick in their heads and someday they'll come back to it and realize that essential secret to happiness in this world. And if they don't get it then, I do like to throw my reminders of recognizing people as human out there so that someone - _someone_ who comes by these threads and sees this discussion of how it is okay to treat some people like they are less than animals and deserving of destruction - will read my words and be knocked to their senses with, "Wow. Of course it's inhumane to think about another human this way" and be more aware of the importance of treating people like equals. I mean, that's a bit daydream-y, to hope I could influence someone like that... but it's honestly what fuels me to go into those forums with their toxic justification of dehumanization and hatred, sadly and stupidly. 

Thank you again for your kind words. Other than this, I think I can acknowledge that I do overshare and definitely need to work on it, that you are indeed a wonderful, calming stream, and just that I appreciate your words in general. You are so kind and insightful, and I can't express how much your words comforted me this morning. Thank you for sharing them with me. (And I know I keep saying thank you but that's because I mean it. Thank you ^^) (and I still can see you as INFP, but ENFP works just as well  )


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> Thank you again for your kind words. You are too sweet in description of Ni and how I fit into it. (And again, so poetic. I don't know hot you balance your ideas, but it seems to me that the most beautiful ones pop out when they need to for you. I know I'm not fully grasping what you are experiencing, but your ideas seem like... a stream, almost. Your words do, at least. Your ideas channel into the, in a very pretty, beautiful, and I hope (because your ideas here are so comforting to me) true way.
> 
> I may be Fe-dom, but I don't give up the ideas I choose very easily. If I know something is something, I stand by it... especially in regards to if something truly hurts people or not. If something hurts people, nothing someone theoretically argues on the alternative will change me from recognizing - this idea is harmful. This idea will hurt people. This idea will bring pain to the world. (And that's actually where I get into most my arguments [although I have gotten into a few petty ones on the sode] - you can be ignorant all you want, but when you have harmful ideas that hurt people, I have no idea how to not step in and go "No. Stop.")
> 
> I do hope you're right about their minds being opened with my words, though. That's why I do it. No, they won't listen, but perhaps the idea of well "not being mean to people" essentially will stick in their heads and someday they'll come back to it and realize that essential secret to happiness in this world. And if they don't get it then, I do like to throw my reminders of recognizing people as human out there so that someone - _someone_ who comes by these threads and sees this discussion of how it is okay to treat some people like they are less than animals and deserving of destruction - will read my words and be knocked to their senses with, "Wow. Of course it's inhumane to think about another human this way" and be more aware of the importance of treating people like equals. I mean, that's a bit daydream-y, to hope I could influence someone like that... but it's honestly what fuels me to go into those forums with their toxic justification of dehumanization and hatred, sadly and stupidly.
> 
> Thank you again for your kind words. Other than this, I think I can acknowledge that I do overshare and definitely need to work on it, that you are indeed a wonderful, calming stream, and just that I appreciate your words in general. You are so kind and insightful, and I can't express how much your words comforted me this morning. Thank you for sharing them with me. (And I know I keep saying thank you but that's because I mean it. Thank you ^^) (and I still can see you as INFP, but ENFP works just as well  )



The truth is, I also hate injustices greatly, especially those on objective matters which did not take into consideration the individual. And I appreciate your stance, as long as you stay true to your feelings, then that is what matters to me. No one should dare to drop you over, neither would they dare to ruin yourself. I am actually amazed that I managed to cheer you up and I hope you will remember this as a whole within yourself. I also thought I was an INFP but the truth is, I do not filter possibilities like an INFP, INFPs remove possibilities which hurt their *deeply* thought value system, I am full of energy and my greatest fear is a specific situation repeating itself(inferior Si), not that my feelings are illogical (like an INFP doubts), I am not as exclusive as INFPs are, I love sharing everything in terms of ideas, I love interacting with the outside world however some people scare me, but that is due to my anxiety and I know my feelings are unique and my soul is always changing with ideas (Fi). I am just as random as I could be but when issues that affect me arise, I tick off. Instantly and my Ne explodes into shady words and sarcastic remarks and I am not afraid of stating it.

So yeah, as I also have tert Te, some facts are indisputable to me. All of those facts pointed to ENFP rather than INFP. 5 sets of questions later with westlose made it clear, I simply knew his Ni would help me out. Told you Ni is a magical ponyland which keeps finding what I can not find so easily.


----------



## Greyhart

> I do hope you're right about their minds being opened with my words, though. That's why I do it. No, they won't listen, but perhaps the idea of well "not being mean to people" essentially will stick in their heads and someday they'll come back to it and realize that essential secret to happiness in this world. *And if they don't get it then, I do like to throw my reminders of recognizing people as human out there so that someone - someone who comes by these threads and sees this discussion of how it is okay to treat some people like they are less than animals and deserving of destruction - will read my words and be knocked to their senses with, "Wow. Of course it's inhumane to think about another human this way" and be more aware of the importance of treating people like equals.* I mean, that's a bit daydream-y, to hope I could influence someone like that... but it's honestly what fuels me to go into those forums with their toxic justification of dehumanization and hatred, sadly and stupidly.


The thing is, it'll be met with an violent rebuke sometimes. Just focus on the fact that someone one day could indeed have it change their mind. As an example 4 years ago I've read a post on tumblr about certain person's experience with depression and anxiety. That _actually_ changed my life because up to that I though that the feeling of hopelessness and emptiness are something that is natural to me and I am destined to live with it until I die. As another example many _posts_ I've read helped me to get away from my "ugh, screw religion" view and begging to respect and admire others spiritual identities.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I swore I would not come back to this thread, but I think I just made a major discovery. Adolf Hitler is an INTJ. lol. It is so clear to me now. 

 I just finished reading Mein Kampf. Hitler has extroverted logic coming out of his ass. Nature. The law of nature. Hitler is objective. He is logical. I used to think of him as more of a figurehead of spiritual leader, but he is a scientist. The detail of extroverted logic. His entire friggin system is based on extroverted logic. On detail. On how a party actually should run logically. How a system should run logically in the real world. It is so boring. It is all system building. He is part of every part. CEO. I honestly feel foolish even thinking he was ever an INFJ. So, Hitler is an INTJ from now on to me. The amount of time spent on why Jews are bad, or aryans are good is so miniscule compared to the extroverted logic of politics. He is like Henry Kissinger too. Whereas guys like Bin Laden don't even care where the world ends up the next day. They are so deeply connected to the idea. I don't think any INFJ can do what Hitler did. That is all extroverted logic. An INFJ does not spend most of the book writing logistics. They don't care about that.

And it's not about trying to dump him on another type. I honestly thought it was cool INFJ had the most bad guys. I have defended Hitler as an INFJ for years.


----------



## Greyhart

FearAndTrembling said:


> I swore I would not come back to this thread, but I think I just made a major discovery. Adolf Hitler is an INTJ. lol. It is so clear to me now.
> 
> I just finished reading Mein Kampf. Hitler has extroverted logic coming out of his ass. Nature. The law of nature. Hitler is objective. He is logical. I used to think of him as more of a figurehead of spiritual leader, but he is a scientist. The detail of extroverted logic. His entire friggin system is based on extroverted logic. On detail. On how a party actually should run logically. How a system should run logically in the real world. It is so boring. It is all system building. He is part of every part. CEO. I honestly feel foolish even thinking he was ever an INFJ. So, Hitler is an INTJ from now on to me. The amount of time spent on why Jews are bad, or aryans are good is so miniscule compared to the extroverted logic of politics. He is like Henry Kissinger too. Whereas guys like Bin Laden don't even care where the world ends up the next day. They are so deeply connected to the idea. I don't think any INFJ can do what Hitler did. That is all extroverted logic. An INFJ does not spend most of the book writing logistics. They don't care about that.
> 
> And it's not about trying to dump him on another type. I honestly thought it was cool INFJ had the most bad guys. I have defended Hitler as an INFJ for years.


You just broke a lot of things on this forum. Hitler = INFJ has been go-to example of evil INFJs for a while.


----------



## AdInfinitum

FearAndTrembling said:


> I swore I would not come back to this thread, but I think I just made a major discovery. Adolf Hitler is an INTJ. lol. It is so clear to me now.
> 
> I just finished reading Mein Kampf. Hitler has extroverted logic coming out of his ass. Nature. The law of nature. Hitler is objective. He is logical. I used to think of him as more of a figurehead of spiritual leader, but he is a scientist. The detail of extroverted logic. His entire friggin system is based on extroverted logic. On detail. On how a party actually should run logically. How a system should run logically in the real world. It is so boring. It is all system building. He is part of every part. CEO. I honestly feel foolish even thinking he was ever an INFJ. So, Hitler is an INTJ from now on to me. The amount of time spent on why Jews are bad, or aryans are good is so miniscule compared to the extroverted logic of politics. He is like Henry Kissinger too. Whereas guys like Bin Laden don't even care where the world ends up the next day. They are so deeply connected to the idea. I don't think any INFJ can do what Hitler did. That is all extroverted logic. An INFJ does not spend most of the book writing logistics. They don't care about that.


But... the other possibilities... *nagnag*

I knew it all along, he was indeed objective and wouldn't an INFJ be a moralist by far and condemn such a behaviour as being immoral and inhumane and hate themselves for pursuing it?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> The thing is, it'll be met with an violent rebuke sometimes. Just focus on the fact that someone one day could indeed have it change their mind. As an example 4 years ago I've read a post on tumblr about certain person's experience with depression and anxiety. That _actually_ changed my life because up to that I though that the feeling of hopelessness and emptiness are something that is natural to me and I am destined to live with it until I die. As another example many _posts_ I've read helped me to get away from my "ugh, screw religion" view and begging to respect and admire others spiritual identities.


Yes... Unfortunately I understand that people will disagree, and that, as happened on the other topic, people will take my words the wrong way and somehow think that I am meaning to offend and personally attack them when really I'm just defending the humanity of all people. 

I actually used to get into a lot of "Internet fights" in my youth. More defending real people, real users, than defending concepts, but... It's given me a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to debating something. I hate it. I do it when I feel it is necessary, but they make me feel sick. I mean I'm okay debating some academic things (and I roll my eyes when someone gets offended because I disagree with their interpretation of a book... disconnect, it's just a story, you can have whatever interpretation you want it honestly does not matter) but like I would have a hard time going into a field that treated humans badly and didn't have people with a humanitarian bent. (Which is actually a big factor in my career choices right now, ugh.) 

I'm glad you were touched by some posts, especially in regards to anxiety and depression. Tumblr can be a good place sometimes.  Also, yes, while I'm not as adamant about defending religion (it's just a topic so many people disagree on? I'm more of an individually spiritual person anyway) I am glad your eyes were opened a bit there as well. That's always wonderful, to me, when someone's mind is opened wider to better see the beauty of something through someone else's eyes.


----------



## Max

Gah. I dunno if I even am an ESTJ anymore. I seriously might be considering ExFJ enneagram 8, or ExTP.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> The truth is, I also hate injustices greatly, especially those on objective matters which did not take into consideration the individual. And I appreciate your stance, as long as you stay true to your feelings, then that is what matters to me. No one should dare to drop you over, neither would they dare to ruin yourself. I am actually amazed that I managed to cheer you up and I hope you will remember this as a whole within yourself. I also thought I was an INFP but the truth is, I do not filter possibilities like an INFP, INFPs remove possibilities which hurt their *deeply* thought value system, I am full of energy and my greatest fear is a specific situation repeating itself(inferior Si), not that my feelings are illogical (like an INFP doubts), I am not as exclusive as INFPs are, I love sharing everything in terms of ideas, I love interacting with the outside world however some people scare me, but that is due to my anxiety and I know my feelings are unique and my soul is always changing with ideas (Fi). I am just as random as I could be but when issues that affect me arise, I tick off. Instantly and my Ne explodes into shady words and sarcastic remarks and I am not afraid of stating it.
> 
> So yeah, as I also have tert Te, some facts are indisputable to me. All of those facts pointed to ENFP rather than INFP. 5 sets of questions later with westlose made it clear, I simply knew his Ni would help me out. Told you Ni is a magical ponyland which keeps finding what I can not find so easily.


You're so sweet, still.  And so different from me. I admire how you say "as long as you're true to your feelings, that's what matters to me," but I can't say I understand it at all. I guess that's an Fi vs Fe difference.  (Sorry, I didn't want to discuss it I guess it's just hard for me to grasp that some people feel like that? As mean as that might sound? It's just a desire that I don't have, and it's kind of interesting to me... If you don't mind me saying that.) 

You sound like you have your functions figured out.  I'm glad. What you're saying makes a lot of sense too. 

And yes, you certainly did cheer me up. I didn't want to make a big deal about it this morning, but honestly each and every one of you did. I came on this morning to those sweet posts here and several kind messages in my inbox, it was all very comforting (especially since I went to bed a stressed mess and was worrying about what I would find when I logged on the next morning) 

But your post was especially kind in some ways because it went... deeper. Said stuff I could grasp onto. I greatly appreciated that. 

Also, don't think too much of Ni as a magic pony land. Ne can find some pretty obvious things too that Ni users would have a much more difficult time grasping.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Gah. I dunno if I even am an ESTJ anymore. I seriously might be considering ExFJ enneagram 8, or ExTP.


I don't know what to say that could be helpful other than that EFJ 8a are exceptionally hard to find. (As in, they might be nonexistent.)


----------



## Greyhart

NobleRaven said:


> But... the other possibilities... *nagnag*
> 
> I knew it all along, he was indeed objective and wouldn't an INFJ be a moralist by far and condemn such a behaviour as being immoral and inhumane and hate themselves for pursuing it?


But this means another evil INTJ stereotype added.


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> I don't know what to say that could be helpful other than that EFJ 8a are exceptionally hard to find. (As in, they might be nonexistent.)


Two words; Don Corleone. 

I don't know if I actually ooze Te, or are just great at collectinh and sourcing information.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I don't know what to say that could be helpful other than that EFJ 8a are exceptionally hard to find. (As in, they might be nonexistent.)


Sometimes I wonder what Enneagram I'd be. Then I remember I've spent 4 years on MBTI and am not done yet. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Two words; Don Corleone.
> 
> I don't know if I actually ooze Te, or are just great at collectinh and sourcing information.


Don't know who that is. And I have an I_TJ I can hook you up with. (For information.) 
@shinynotshiny


----------



## Max

Barakiel said:


> Sometimes I wonder what Enneagram I'd be. Then I remember I've spent 4 years on MBTI and am not done yet. :laughing:


Don't even start me, Brother.


alittlebear said:


> Don't know who that is. And I have an I_TJ I can hook you up with. (For information.)
> @shinynotshiny


You've never watched The Godfather? Wow.
Yes. Shinykins, we summon you.

I don't know if this is overactive Ne, or what. But I am having another crisis.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

NobleRaven said:


> But... the other possibilities... *nagnag*
> 
> I knew it all along, he was indeed objective and wouldn't an INFJ be a moralist by far and condemn such a behaviour as being immoral and inhumane and hate themselves for pursuing it?


I think an INFJ could be that evil, but they have no strategy whatsoever. Hitler is like a scientist/mastermind. What Hitler is doing, is all that logical system building in the external world, which is the biggest weakness an INFJ has. 

I think people also think he is an INFJ because he was so irrational too. But he built Germany up from a defeated nation to a force it took all the major powers of the world to defeat. 

I think people may focus too much on the racism angle. So assume it is Fe. Or that Hitler was just an orator. An inspirer. So an NF. But Hitler always appealed to objective logic, and that is where he usually stayed. It is a soulless scientific view of the world.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Don't even start me, Brother.
> 
> You've never watched The Godfather? Wow.
> Yes. Shinykins, we summon you.
> 
> I don't know if this is overactive Ne, or what. But I am having another crisis.


I'm getting around to watching it


----------



## Barakiel

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Don't even start me, Brother.


We suffer together.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


> But this means another evil INTJ stereotype added.


Please, they always stereotype themselves, they do not mind it. :tongue:


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Developing healthy feeling functions...have fun. Those are the most difficult to get healthy. Damned unethical planet we live in.


Heh. I am gonna end up like... one of those parental figures by the time I am 50 at this rate.

I'm bored. I am gonna make a Danny Trejo type thread. No-one has msde one yet, surprisingly.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I like to be logical too. I am told I am charming, opinionated, funny, think in black and white sometimes, nice. I can get off with things too. I think this is more personality related than function related.
> 
> I mean, healthy-ish Te. Like I want healthy feeling functions.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> They are both logical but like cancel each other out. My ENTJ cousin is like anti-me. "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS IDEA?" "States some obvious logical hole I've missed. Idea is now deceased." ""


Well, that's how me and my ISTJ friend are.

Me: "Hey, what about we do xxxx?"
ISTJ: "No, that is dumb. We should do it like we're told."

Us Ne doms have it so hard. :crying:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


>


I think it's because I think rather than feel? No idea.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


>


I'm done with your sassy Spock gifs.


----------



## Max

I am lazy? Hell, yes.
Am I always resourceful? Hell, no.
Do I plan as I go? Yes.
Am I immature? Yes.
Do I always go by the book? No.
Am I a fact whore? Duh.
Do I like to make lists? Usually.
Do I write evrything down? Not always.
Can I plan stuff in my head? Yes.
Do I think out loud? Sometimes.
Am I critical? Aren't we all? 
Am I heartless? Who knows.
Am I always productive? So-so.
Do I try be logical? Yes.
Do I get shouted at? -.- Duh.
Am I sloppy? Sloppy Joe.
Do I try moderate? Yes.
Am I annoying you?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I am lazy? Hell, yes.
> .
> Am I annoying you?


Nah, you're pretty cool. You gain my approval.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Nah, you're pretty cool. You gain my approval.


Thanks.

I think I am the epitome of a young ESTJ?

Oh, look made up my own quote:

"I am a fact whore. Facts are like sex to me. I lost my factual virginity when I was still a child."-Lucho


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I think I am the epitome of a young ESTJ?
> 
> Oh, look made up my own quote:
> 
> "I am a fact whore. Facts are like sex to me. I lost my factual virginity when I was still a child."-Lucho


Yes, a very interesting one at that.

That quote tho.

I've made plenty of them myself, my favorite being:

"Life is a party that I wasn't invited to."

Depressing, yes?


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yes, a very interesting one at that.
> 
> That quote tho.
> 
> I've made plenty of them myself, my favorite being:
> 
> "Life is a party that I wasn't invited to."
> 
> Depressing, yes?


Yes. Haha. 

"It'a not important, but it's cool." Is one I made up as a kid.

Yes, your quote is very NFP.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes. Haha.
> 
> "It'a not important, but it's cool." Is one I made up as a kid.
> 
> Yes, your quote is very NFP.


Another one of mine is:
"Just because it isn't real doesn't mean it isn't important." One I made when I was rather young.

Oh well, NFP existence forever, yes yes.


----------



## Greyhart

"I am a fact whore. Facts are like sex to me. I lost my factual virginity when I was still a child." -Lucho
Good. You are a deviant. Factual deviant. Wear it with a pride.

"Life is a party that I wasn't invited to."
Here it can go two ways:
"So I'll burn the house."
or
"So I'll make my own party."


----------



## Greyhart

"Just because it isn't real doesn't mean it isn't important."
Agree. I'd add "Doesn't mean it didn't happen in an alternate Universe."


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> "
> I'd add "Doesn't mean it didn't happen in an alternate Universe."


Or possibly an infinite number of alternate multiverses simultaneously occurring at the same exact point in time.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> "I am a fact whore. Facts are like sex to me. I lost my factual virginity when I was still a child." -Lucho
> Good. You are a deviant. Factual deviant. Wear it with a pride.
> 
> "Life is a party that I wasn't invited to."
> Here it can go two ways:
> "So I'll burn the house."
> or
> "So I'll make my own party."


Yes. Haha. Now I need to find someone to impress. Preferrably a sexy Latin person 


TelepathicGoose said:


> Another one of mine is:
> "Just because it isn't real doesn't mean it isn't important." One I made when I was rather young.
> 
> Oh well, NFP existence forever, yes yes.


I like that one too. Whats real to you is as important as what is real to the world sometimes.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I like that one too. Whats real to you is as important as what is real to the world sometimes.


Yay, a person who understands. Wooohooooooo


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yay, a person who understands. Wooohooooooo


I do understand. I'm human underneath all that Te.

And I wasn't joking about making a Danny Trejo thread either:

 http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=553842


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Woah. So I was going to complain that we weren't talking about cognitive functions enough here. But then I realized we _were_ talking about cognitive functions. Just not _my_ cognitive functions.


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> Woah. So I was going to complain that we weren't talking about cognitive functions enough here. But then I realized we _were_ talking about cognitive functions. Just not _my_ cognitive functions.


Yeah lol. Speaking of cognitive functions, I think Si can be as misunderstood and misinterpreted as Ni is a lot of the time. Both are wonderful functions, unique in their own ways, and misunderstood like two starcrossed lovers. Romeo and Juliet is how I seem them in a sense.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

That reminds me, Lucho

And I'll tag @angelcat in this because I wouldn't have pondered this without her insight into her experience of archetypes (and I loved your archetype post today especially) 

I've realized that I don't think I use archetypes much at all. 

I don't struggle from seeing someone as the prototypical this. I know that priests are not always theologically sound, that teachers can hate kids, that family is not always there for each other, that cheerleaders aren't always mean and coaches aren't always bossy and cashiers aren't always very helpful. I'm sure that the archetype thing is more complex than just that, but even then I can't figure out what I have that could be considered an archetype. Even when I read... I remember last year I wanted to do a story about fairy tales, like a typical fairy tale type story meaningfully twisted to prove a point (similar I think to what @Oswin has mentioned with a story about King Arthur she mentioned working on)... but I couldn't do it. What was the typical fairy tale character? I could get the fairy tale atmosphere down, the general plot... but figuring out the fairy tale character archetypes was something I struggled with. 

And while I do relate to Sansa, especially when she loses all authority and control over herself in her last chapter of GOT... I've never been fooled by false ideas about people because they don't meet my expectation. I mean, maybe some time, but generally I take every person as they are. Okay. She's a cheerleader coach, but she's actually sweet. She's a librarian, but she's not quite so nice or friendly or geeky. They are what they are. I generally do that, I think... take reality as it is, if through a little cloud of my perception that I don't think other members of my family suffer from as much.


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, like...
This one time I went to visit the Starnbergsee (it's a lake near Munich, interestingly mentioned in T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland and also the sight of Ludwig II's untimely death) and, because where I lived when I was younger, a 'lake' designates a relatively small body of water, I decided I would just walk around the lake that day (because there are only metro lines on one side of the lake). I walked, say, 5 km and I honestly thought I was like 1/4 of the way around the lake. I walked 5 km more, I was surprised to see I wasn't really much further. 5 km more, same picture, but I still thought it would save time to walk around the lake than to turn back. 5 km more, it was getting nearer to evening and I knew the metro lines/buses would close at 10 or so. But I was _still_ undervaluing the size of the lake, so I thought I would stray off from the path and cut across the forest to get there faster. But then I turned the corner and the scenery looked like this:







And it for some reason looked _exactly_ like how the path in Little Red Riding Hood looks in my imagination, so then I realized, like, I _was_ Little Red Riding Hood, I'd fallen into that archetype and I had to not stray from the path. (And I didn't, which was really lucky because a tiny bit later I came near the road 2 minutes before the last bus to Munich for the night came back). And, hm, feeling like the archetype made me feel like a real person too) Difficult to explain)

______________________________________________________________________________

The other thing in Germany was that I originally went there to be an au pair in this small town. But the lady there fired me after two weeks completely out of the blue so I was completely stranded and out of work in the middle of Bavaria. I was heartbroken and freaking out, until I went to this hotel that really looked like a wooden cottage, near a castle...and it reminded me of Snow White so much (specially since Snow White took place in the same basic place) that I felt like Snow White, and it really calmed me) Not sure if this is exactly an archetype thing, but, I felt comforted when I found out what story this was like? Otherwise it was just me being inadequate for a job and completely stranded in a foreign country.

Weird, sorry) But yeah) Maybe related)


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> The other thing in Germany was that I originally went there to be an au pair in this small town. But the lady there fired me after two weeks completely out of the blue so I was completely stranded and out of work in the middle of Bavaria. I was heartbroken and freaking out, until I went to this hotel that really looked like a wooden cottage, near a castle...and it reminded me of Snow White so much (specially since Snow White took place in the same basic place) that I felt like Snow White, and it really calmed me) Not sure if this is exactly an archetype thing, but, I felt comforted when I found out what story this was like? Otherwise it was just me being inadequate for a job and completely stranded in a foreign country.


This part here reminded me insantly of this song:

http://youtube.com/watch=v?hoyuCg-Exjs


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> This part here reminded me insantly of this song:
> 
> https://youtu.be/hoyuCg-Exjs


Title and artist?
The youtu.be links don't work for me(


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@alittlebear

I was being hyperbolic in that example for poetic affect. I do that a lot. But I think my example is more Fe-Si? When you're hurt, every future encounter will be painful too, so you have to change the execution. It's actually a healthy thing for the reasons @fair phantom mentioned. And the struggles of knowing yourself, ah. You think you know what you are precisely, but what if it's just a distortion? What if you're not even really... alive? What if everything is just an export of that you've seen before and have cemented into your being, and your real self is lost?

Unhappy thoughts.


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> Title and artist?
> The youtu.be links don't work for me(


Go back to my post, click the link and it should work now.

If not, Youtube Kings X- Lost In Germany.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Ok, for instance...one thing I absolutely hate is those books that are supposedly being clever by turning a fairytale on its head. Like...it ruins the whole point. I was so reluctant to see Maleficent because Sleeping Beauty is like..._my_ story and to me it's just perfection and I didn't want to see something that would tear it apart (the movie was ok, but...)
> My King Arthur thing (I'm sorry, I feel really self-obsessed for keeping talking about this, but it's a thing I do with my mind)...what I'm going for is less twisting the story around, but having the characters try on different hats and represent different archetypes. For instance...one archetype I really like to play with is that of the triple goddess -- Maiden, Mother, and Crone. These roles are naturally mutable -- if there are three sisters, at one point each different sister might represent a different form, and each sister can represent all of them. (Which isn't twisting the archetype; that's literally what the archetype is). And . . . hm, I just like having different characters step in and out of the different roles. (Darn it, I really thought I was going somewhere with this). The roles are always in my mind. Mmmm...I'm getting confused as I'm writing. Maybe I'm not using archetypes in my Arthur story and I just thought I did because you said I'd said I was?
> 
> Ok, in real life) I'm kind-of thinking the best example is how I view myself. I want to be [a concept that I call 'a princess' or 'a maiden']. I don't literally want to be a princess, but I want to fulfill this role. And there are some things that I could do that would bar me from being 'a princess'...I tend to be very strict about it, though, like, I'm sitting all weird right now and that makes me 'not-a-princess'. (or maybe this is Fi???)
> I'm fairly sure my friend is an ENTJ, she calls this same concept (I believe) 'a flowerpetal'. It just means, for her, that you have all the qualities that are feminine, flower-like, mm...I'm getting confused again, but I think she uses Ni? But now I'm thinking maybe Si, we have some similar 'archetypes' like this. For instance, we used to have a whole code with numbers. The number 7 meant (well, originally it meant singer Alexander Rybak) but we applied it to all men who exemplified manly virtue. I guess it was an archetype? Or...I don't know.
> 
> No, but I do use archetypes; I know I do. Ok, for instance: fast food. I was always taught it was disgusting, that they spit in the food, all this. So, when I look at fast food restaurants...I see something like the entrance to Mordor, and on the couple of occasions I ate fast food I felt like...unclean. So I was so shocked when my mother had me go with her to Panera! I could not but think of it as fast food. She told me like, it's fairly healthy, I wouldn't count it as fast food, but...all the food tasted 'like fast food to me'. Finally she convinced me to think of it as a boulangerie. It kinda worked. I think. If I could actually separate "Panera" from "fast food" it might actually work, but I can't tbh)
> 
> That sounds overly dramatic I realize, but, I don't know) Maybe more specific questions and I'll be less confused)


No, please do not be afraid to discuss your story! I brought it up in the first place, and is really do love knowing about other people's stories. It's a bit weird of me, but I think the stories we like to tell say a lot about our souls. (Always in a positive way... It's hard to explain.) Also, no - I really think I get what you mean about the archetypes in your King Arthur story. (And I didn't know the maiden, mother, and crone were archetypes... I just knew them from GOT, ha.) 

Your princess thing also seems like an Fe/Si thing, and a very sweet one at that (if I may say). I want @Living dead to see this too, since I need to comment on her topic about what I've noticed about her and what I think are her archetypes... and she also mentioned something like this about being a princess. (In a much different way, but I think it could be an archetype.) 

And oh my goodness, I would say something like call that a "flower petal" too. I do crao like that all the time. Gosh, I did it today... Can't remember when... like, oh okay, when I was in fifth grade I was bullied by these girls (used to think they were all FJs, back when I discovered the functions... now I know they were just girls who wanted to be cool, and didn't realize what they were doing to their more socially vulnerable classmates) and in high school I saw one again, and it hit me - they are hens! They are hens. And to this day, if I see one... I'll probably describe them as a "hen". I can't even explain it, like it's not really a bad thing, but... They're hens. And that's okay, that's their role right now... But I don't want to be a hen, you know? It's hard to explain, but it's like the flower petal thing. (And I've definitely called someone a flower petal before, lol.) 

And it doesn't sound over dramatic, no. Thank you for sharing. I sort of relate,maybe... like in have this idea of what a bar was supposed to be, and I'm always surprised when we're eating somewhere and I realize. Oh. This is a bar. It doesn't match my image, but it's still a bar? I don't have a positive or negative feel for it so much as I have a felt image of what it must be like, which is adjusted when I learn something different (although... when I picture a bar I still do not picture any of the family-type bars I've been to. If that makes sense. It's weird.) 

Thank you for explaining about archetypes though,a has! This is really cool, and I really appreciate it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh also and @Oswin I agree about Maleficient. It was an interesting story of the redeemed villain, her story, a feminist story in some ways... but it wasn't the real story. I don't adjust my idea of Sleeping Beauty to that... because it was hardly based off Sleeping Beauty at all. (Unlike the new Cinderella movie, which I see as slightly different from the original... but mostly the same story, just more vivid.)


----------



## Max

@Oswin @alittlebear- Talking of fairytales and archetypes. Right now, myself and a couple of other people from my drama group are rewriting Snow White and putting our own spin on it. It's fun, and challenges the typical 'Disney Princess' archetypes in a way. I am enjoying (re)writing it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> To bring up Emilie Autumn:
> 
> She exemplifies the phenomenon rather well. I have no interest in fairies, but history (especially victorians, coincidentally) is my favorite thing. Sci Fi is fun too. Many enjoy fantasy novels (if they're not already novelists).
> 
> Ne in an SJ is immature; fertile. Si is disconnected from reality. When your entire life is based upon sensory things that don't currently exist, you get upset when actuality smacks you in the face. You're confused, lost and disoriented. Everything is sick and something is horribly amiss. You're lost in a maze and you can't find the exit. So what do you do? You escape. You build a stable, structured alternate reality that you can use to find comfort, and all of the things you get out of this very world makes life easier to navigate from. Archetypes of these sorts are fantastical, and birth perspectives that helps you navigate the real world.
> 
> Dominate Ne will not do this. It's already developed 10 sparse ideas for a story before finishing the first one. Low order Ne is escapism. It's accessible, well drawn out, and exquisite. When you're an alien outside of your home planet, you dream of where you came from.... that very experience is a comfort you can always gain perspectives you never once considered. These perspectives shield you from the disembodiment that is your life, and you can always dream of your home planet if you need more.
> 
> That is what Emilie is doing. That is what I do. This is Si.


Thank you for this further explanation as well. Be prepared to be quoted by FMF, because I think that's a good description she could easily use


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> (And I didn't know the maiden, mother, and crone were archetypes... I just knew them from GOT, ha.)


I want to read/watch GOT so I will know what people are always talking about))
@LuchoIsLurking I see the resemblance to my situation)))


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> I want to read/watch GOT so I will know what people are always talking about))
> @LuchoIsLurking I see the resemblance to my situation)))


Yeah, I am trying to imagine you walking into the cottage, face lighting up at the resemblance whilst being lost in Germany. Nice scene.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin I'm curious how you would feel about this SNL series 






My ISFJ friend and I spent hours watching these little Disney Princess spin offs. We both got something out of it. Maybe because we're both Disney fans? Not sure, but we laughed so hard.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> I was being hyperbolic in that example for poetic affect. I do that a lot. But I think my example is more Fe-Si? When you're hurt, every future encounter will be painful too, so you have to change the execution. It's actually a healthy thing for the reasons @fair phantom mentioned. And the struggles of knowing yourself, ah. You think you know what you are precisely, but what if it's just a distortion? What if you're not even really... alive? What if everything is just an export of that you've seen before and have cemented into your being, and your real self is lost?
> 
> Unhappy thoughts.


The question you pose reminds me... At one point, one of my professors asked the question "How would you feel if you knew you were about to forget everyone you had ever loved, if your memory was about to be wiped?" And he didn't call on me, but... Well, one, as a traumatized person I know it's terribly pathetic but I would consider it, and to me... Love isn't something that's stored up. It's something that happens. I love everyone I see, and always almost have. I mean I wouldn't fear forgetting everyone I loved because I would just remember them again?

And I sort of feel that way about who I am as a person... because I feel like all I am is "love," almost. All I am is how I help people, how I reach out to others... and I think I am my insights, I am my thoughts, my connections, my understanding of the world... and it would really suck to lose access to that understanding - I would have to write everything important I could think of down ahead of time - but the biggest part of me for me is my kindness, and I think that's just my personality. I imagine it would come back immediately if I forgot my memories... because I'm not kind because I have experiences of being kind and I know it works, I am kind because... I don't know what else to be. I don't know. 

A bit unrelated, but it reminded me of how you mused a little at the end about who you are, if our real self is lost. I think I have some trauma induced thoughts like that, is happy optimistic cheerful me gone... but for me mostly I think I am how I help others and bring them up, and it think that as long as I do that or at least keep pursuing my insights I will be me. If that makes sense? Hmm. 

Oh, but thank you for the clarification on what you meant. That makes more sense, yes ^^


----------



## Max

I dunno if this is a Si thing or I have no life or what, but I like to look at the remixed version of an artist's song(s), and compare them to each other and see which one I like best based on beat, tone and lyrics. And what I feel from the song. (Yeah, sometimes I feel music).

I find the original version is usually better than the newer version 8/10.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Ok, like...
> This one time I went to visit the Starnbergsee (it's a lake near Munich, interestingly mentioned in T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland and also the sight of Ludwig II's untimely death) and, because where I lived when I was younger, a 'lake' designates a relatively small body of water, I decided I would just walk around the lake that day (because there are only metro lines on one side of the lake). I walked, say, 5 km and I honestly thought I was like 1/4 of the way around the lake. I walked 5 km more, I was surprised to see I wasn't really much further. 5 km more, same picture, but I still thought it would save time to walk around the lake than to turn back. 5 km more, it was getting nearer to evening and I knew the metro lines/buses would close at 10 or so. But I was _still_ undervaluing the size of the lake, so I thought I would stray off from the path and cut across the forest to get there faster. But then I turned the corner and the scenery looked like this:
> View attachment 328306
> 
> And it for some reason looked _exactly_ like how the path in Little Red Riding Hood looks in my imagination, so then I realized, like, I _was_ Little Red Riding Hood, I'd fallen into that archetype and I had to not stray from the path. (And I didn't, which was really lucky because a tiny bit later I came near the road 2 minutes before the last bus to Munich for the night came back). And, hm, feeling like the archetype made me feel like a real person too) Difficult to explain)
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> The other thing in Germany was that I originally went there to be an au pair in this small town. But the lady there fired me after two weeks completely out of the blue so I was completely stranded and out of work in the middle of Bavaria. I was heartbroken and freaking out, until I went to this hotel that really looked like a wooden cottage, near a castle...and it reminded me of Snow White so much (specially since Snow White took place in the same basic place) that I felt like Snow White, and it really calmed me) Not sure if this is exactly an archetype thing, but, I felt comforted when I found out what story this was like? Otherwise it was just me being inadequate for a job and completely stranded in a foreign country.
> 
> Weird, sorry) But yeah) Maybe related)


Okay. This is sad of me (not really, just silly) but when I was reading that first paragraph and I saw a fuzzy picture in your post I was _sure_ this was going to be a ghost story. Thank goodness it was not. 

That's really sweet, though  

I can understand the Snow White thing, a little? That makes perfect sense to me. 

Like... I remember, when I was in seventh grade, I was the basketball manager. And when I was in seventh grade, I happened to read that Warriors series religiously. I just read and read and read it. And the coach happened to be someone I was familiar with, which was why I got the job, but she was so cranky and I was always so positive. And it's ridiculous, but sometimes I would read and think about these two characters from Warriors, where one was the older character and the other one was the helper character, and it would see myself as the helper and my coach as the older character (the older teacher character happened to be cranky but wise too, and the helper character was especially helpful). Really this was false - @Fuzzystorm and I have identified that I only share my middle functions with the character I related to then, ha - but it was something I did at the time that made me feel bigger. 

Also, in regards to what you mentioned Oswin about the princess... I relate to that, a little? For me it was, I wanted to be like a servant. It's ridiculous, but I studied so much up on servitude, what it was like for Victorian servants, I read books about slavery, just books about what it was to be the lowest in society but still keep ones' dignity. And I didn't actively think of myself as a servant - of course not, obviously I'm a middle class suburban white girl - but I tried to assume their character qualities. I wanted to be helpful, to be the one to do what the teacher asked, to be trusted with errands, to help the sports games run smoother when our athletic coordinator my mom works for needed me to do something. Maybe this is just a weird E2 thing, it was more subconscious than anything, but it was a bit interested in helping figures and wanted to embody them. (Because... I figured out early on that I will never be a queen. Or a princess. Or anything. But I figured... helper. Yeah, I can do helpful servant type person. If that makes sense.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla you used my Debby Berwick video <3


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> @hoopla you used my Debby Berwick video <3


The epitome of Fe stereotypes.


----------



## Immolate

Where's the thread now?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> The epitome of Fe stereotypes.


Wait until you see the next Mockingjay movie. (If you see it, not sure if you do THG.) I wrote a post on the THG thread about how the character Delly is a basically the most cardboard EFJ in YA. They'll probably flash her out in the movie, but... to be honest I want her to stay exactly as she is so she can continue being so classically Fe.


----------



## Max

@alittlebear @hoopla @shinynotshiny @Oswin @TelepathicGoose -Do you think Te or Ti types tend to overanalyze things/think about things more? I find myself overanaylzing things sometimes, and I wonder if that is Ne and Ti, or Ne and Te or just an ESTJ with (under/over)developed Ne? Or even an xSFJ stuck in an unhealthy Ne-Ti loop (highly unlikely).

Sometimes I overthink the negative (sometimes positive) possibilities of something (depending on the situation and or people in it). Other times I overanaylze things and sometimes I end up pissing myself off through surpression or too many different angles of a situation/possibilities. I end up all over the place. I don't understand it? Sometimes I end up emotional for no reason? Lol.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Where's the thread now?


What are we discussing? A mishmash, I guess.. I asked about Si archetypes, and right now we're discussing that with a little track of fairy tale discussion, some music discussion, and a little bit about assertiveness from the EA thread.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @alittlebear @hoopla @shinynotshiny @Oswin @TelepathicGoose -Do you think Te or Ti types tend to overanalyze things/think about things more? I find myself overanaylzing things sometimes, and I wonder if that is Ne and Ti, or Ne and Te or just an ESTJ with (under/over)developed Ne? Or even an xSFJ stuck in an unhealthy Ne-Ti loop (highly unlikely).
> 
> Sometimes I overthink the negative (sometimes positive) possibilities of something (depending on the situation and or people in it). Other times I overanaylze things and sometimes I end up pissing myself off through surpression or too many different angles of a situation/possibilities. I end up all over the place. I don't understand it? Sometimes I end up emotional for no reason? Lol.


Sounds like low order Ne rather than thinking.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @_alittlebear_ @_hoopla_ @_shinynotshiny_ @_Oswin_ @_TelepathicGoose_ -Do you think Te or Ti types tend to overanalyze things/think about things more? I find myself overanaylzing things sometimes, and I wonder if that is Ne and Ti, or Ne and Te or just an ESTJ with (under/over)developed Ne? Or even an xSFJ stuck in an unhealthy Ne-Ti loop (highly unlikely).
> 
> Sometimes I overthink the negative (sometimes positive) possibilities of something (depending on the situation and or people in it). Other times I overanaylze things and sometimes I end up pissing myself off through surpression or too many different angles of a situation/possibilities. I end up all over the place. I don't understand it? Sometimes I end up emotional for no reason? Lol.


I'm thinking Ne. I overanalyze when I'm an emotional mess.
@alittlebear: thank you for the update 
@hoopla: am I Si dom.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Sounds like low order Ne rather than thinking.


I agree with this.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm thinking Ne. I overanalyze when I'm an emotional mess.
> @alittlebear: thank you for the update
> @hoopla: am I Si dom.


Do you relate to my descriptions of Si?


----------



## Max

hoopla said:


> Sounds like low order Ne rather than thinking.


This is basically my head at night, especially when I am tired and end up overthinking things and having so many thoughts in my head. Infact, this is me right now:












shinynotshiny said:


> I'm thinking Ne. I overanalyze when I'm an emotional mess.
> @alittlebear: thank you for the update
> @hoopla: am I Si dom.


Maybe. Does it sound like a Te-Ne Ne-Ti, Ne-Fi Si-Ti, Si-Fi or Ti-Ne loop? There I go again. Damn. I think a lot at night. Geez


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Do you relate to my descriptions of Si?


No, but I take it it's your Fe shining through.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin I'm curious how you would feel about this SNL series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My ISFJ friend and I spent hours watching these little Disney Princess spin offs. We both got something out of it. Maybe because we're both Disney fans? Not sure, but we laughed so hard.


I feel...confused) Maybe a little amused, but primarily, confusion)


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> This is basically my head at night, especially when I am tired and end up overthinking things and having so many thoughts in my head. Infact, this is me right now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe. Does it sound like a Te-Ne Ne-Ti, Ne-Fi Si-Ti, Si-Fi or Ti-Ne loop? There I go again. Damn. I think a lot at night. Geez


Nitpicky Te and Ne with a splash of inferior Fi???


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Nitpicky Te and Ne with a splash of inferior Fi???


You think?


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You think?


Maybe? :crazy:


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Also, in regards to what you mentioned Oswin about the princess... I relate to that, a little? For me it was, I wanted to be like a servant. It's ridiculous, but I studied so much up on servitude, what it was like for Victorian servants, I read books about slavery, just books about what it was to be the lowest in society but still keep ones' dignity. And I didn't actively think of myself as a servant - of course not, obviously I'm a middle class suburban white girl - but I tried to assume their character qualities. I wanted to be helpful, to be the one to do what the teacher asked, to be trusted with errands, to help the sports games run smoother when our athletic coordinator my mom works for needed me to do something. Maybe this is just a weird E2 thing, it was more subconscious than anything, but it was a bit interested in helping figures and wanted to embody them. (Because... I figured out early on that I will never be a queen. Or a princess. Or anything. But I figured... helper. Yeah, I can do helpful servant type person. If that makes sense.)


Oh, I do this too though. Ugh, when I was really little I would actually pretend to be a really badly-treated servant/slave, which is embarrassing... I don't think I want my 'core' to be a servant (and 'servant' isn't exactly incompatible with 'princess' in my scheme) but yeah, that's a thing I'll do/I've done. I'll pretend I'm a servant especially if I'm doing some job or something. I don't know, it's interesting.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Maybe? :crazy:


Quizas. 

(Refrains from posting a song that reminds me of the word maybe/quizas).


----------



## Dangerose

I agree with the others, low-order Ne


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Quizas.
> 
> (Refrains from posting a song that reminds me of the word maybe/quizas).


posiblemente? a lo mejor? tal vez?

lol you need to add the accent because you confused me :bored:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm also curious about this character, while we're on our fairy tale discussion 




(This was the best clip I could find. Gosh, I didn't realize when I last saw this what a kind of sexual moment that was. Wow.) 

I've been wondering about Giselle since I discovered the functions. I saw one thread argue her as either ESFJ or ENFP. I guess in that way I can see it coming down to if she's more Ariel or Rapunzel... While I think she's quite Fe in some ways, especially 




she reminds me of Ariel more, somehow. 

I found this movie very interesting. The typical Disney princess. Honestly I love Giselle. She's what a Disney princess should be, I think. Dreamy, happy, cheerful, helpful, loving, kind, one to help the world and not hurt it in any way. Of course all Disney Princesses generally are this, but in love how Giselle was made these things so intentionally.

Edit: She also reminds me of Leslie Knope in Parks and Rec, who I think we generally understand to be ESFJ... hmm.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> posiblemente? a lo mejor? tal vez?
> 
> lol you need to add the accent because you confused me :bored:


 https://youtu.be/q8xuBgWo1mU


The English lyrics of this song are also pretty.

Is it weird I can remember things for other people also? And correct them when I need to? And remember their life stories or parts of them? 0.o


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> https://youtu.be/q8xuBgWo1mU
> 
> 
> The English lyrics of this song are also pretty.
> 
> Is it weird I can remember things for other people also? And correct them when I need to? And remember their life stories or parts of them? 0.o


Si?

P.S. I, ah, see why the song reminds you of 'maybe' :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Si?
> 
> P.S. I, ah, see why the song reminds you of 'maybe' :laughing:


I think so, yes. Especially the parts with the music, the connection to music, knowing the tones and those things. I mean, not sure if that's Si exactly, but it certainly seems S to me (I think)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I'm also curious about this character, while we're on our fairy tale discussion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (This was the best clip I could find. Gosh, I didn't realize when I last saw this what a kind of sexual moment that was. Wow.)
> 
> I've been wondering about Giselle since I discovered the functions. I saw one thread argue her as either ESFJ or ENFP. I guess in that way I can see it coming down to if she's more Ariel or Rapunzel... While I think she's quite Fe in some ways, especially
> 
> 
> 
> 
> she reminds me of Ariel more, somehow.
> 
> I found this movie very interesting. The typical Disney princess. Honestly I love Giselle. She's what a Disney princess should be, I think. Dreamy, happy, cheerful, helpful, loving, kind, one to help the world and not hurt it in any way. Of course all Disney Princesses generally are this, but in love how Giselle was made these things so intentionally.
> 
> Edit: She also reminds me of Leslie Knope in Parks and Rec, who I think we generally understand to be ESFJ... hmm.


I'm inclined towards ENFP because she doesn't really take on the emotions of those around her? isn't she sort of oblivious to what others feel? not in a bad way because she is still caring and loving and helpful, but she is able to be so persistently happy that I feel like it is ENFP?

I don't know though. Maybe I'll use this as an excuse to rewatch the movie.


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> Like I actually told Curious Elephant the other day (yesterday) that I could see her as not an ENTP because ENTPs are sort of... hard, and they have like a little bit of drop space between their balloons I guess and their hard side, but their hard side is right there, and it's kind of just... pale, I guess. It's blunt. When you run into it, you run into it. And then I said to my friend that I did _not_ see that in her. She also hard a hard side, but it was much deeper buried, a little darker, and covered by bubbles (almost). She's a lot more sweet for longer extensions of time, but when you hit the hard side of her... you hit it hard, with is increased because you've been floundering so long through her bubbly-ness.
> 
> I don't think this is solid evidence, but I'm actually considering @Curiphant more for ESFP (as an Ni user) because she said something like, "Why wouldn't that make sense? That makes perfect sense." Which I'm not sure if Si users would have understood as clearly? (To her I described what I meant in even vaguer terms).


Funny you say that. I notice that I don't have as good a grasp of th future, theoretical things, analytic symbollism, the unknown and abstract intuition, even though I try do. And I also don't get these "origins of the universe" speculation, philosophical debates. I don't know if this is due to low Ti, Ni or both (which is quite ironic, 'cause I used to get typed as an xSTP all the time, before I vigorously researched the functions).

For me, the tangiable, society's direction, the systems of the world, our roles, the things they keep hidden from us, the end times, world building in my mind, the truth and the big picture in general. Those kind of things fascinate me in many ways, but I can never grasp them fully. 

My life is a coloring book; I have the outlines, but I can't fill in the blanks. I have memories, plans, hopes and fears, but no album. I understand people to an extent, but I will never fully be able to understand the beauty of their tragic minds, no matter how much I get to know them. 

Too many people are unstable and untrusthworthy. I don't distrust them by choice, I distrust them from past experiences and their characters. I am not assertive and closed off by choice. I am that way because of how people treated me in the past. I now know what they're like. I am wary of them. 

Yes, I like to meet new people but I also like to find out what they're like as I get to know them.


----------



## Darkbloom

angelcat said:


> I nitpick reality in things all the time. I've given up on some shows. "Yeah, this doesn't make any sense. And it's going to bug me forever, so I may as well quit over-thinking it."


Why do I NEVER think about things like that? There's no way I'd notice inconsistencies or that something makes no sense, I just watch it as it is and take from it things I like, ignore everything else. Tbh I often watch shows/movies just for characters or one character and pay very little attention to the rest of it. 
Like,I watched most of American Horror Story just for Jessica Lange's character (ok,and Dandy in last season lol) and plot surrounding her but the rest of it bored me and I didn't pay much attention to it.
I can't imagine needing things to make sense,I either like some elements of it enough to keep watching or I don't.


----------



## Darkbloom

@alittlebear,gonna think about that archetype thing soon,I definitely do have it in some way though!


----------



## 68097

Living dead said:


> Why do I NEVER think about things like that? There's no way I'd notice inconsistencies or that something makes no sense, I just watch it as it is and take from it things I like, ignore everything else. Tbh I often watch shows/movies just for characters or one character and pay very little attention to the rest of it. ... I can't imagine needing things to make sense,I either like some elements of it enough to keep watching or I don't.


Fi/Te perhaps?

I MUST HAVE THINGS MAKE SENSE. At 10 years old, I e-mailed an author (he actually answered me, there's a shock) to ask WHY this character, a child, didn't do THIS instead of THAT, because THIS would have solved the problem. He didn't really have an answer other than "He didn't think of it." I thought that was a cop out. If *I* could think of it, the character should have been able to think of it. 

Then again, Ti is a problem solving function. Something wrong? Bugging you? Seems terrible? Fix it. Think about it, try out things, and ... fix it. Get out of it. Change the problem into a solution. So, I charge into the world prepared to challenge it, to find logical loopholes and exploit them. I want there to be NO WAY anyone can look at anything I've written and say, "They could have done this." Yeah, no. Been there, thought about that, wrote it in such a way the solution could not be any other way than what the character wound up choosing. 

Then again, I'm an Enneagram 6. Heightened logic. Inclined to challenge and rip apart every argument. Major problem solver, rather effortlessly. I don't even know how it works, sometimes -- it just does. Give me a problem, whether it's how to do something mechanical or build something, or stuff an object back into padding in a box, and I just ... do it. 

So, yes, I pick holes in logic in everything I watch, if they are there to be found. It can be really annoying to other people, and to me, because ... you can't enjoy stuff if you're going, 'BUT WHY...?'


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> @alittlebear,gonna think about that archetype thing soon,I definitely do have it in some way though!


I remember, I think on the most recent pages of my Enneagram topic, you were saying like... I was a Charlie, not a Gretchen Weiners, and you used the other name of the girl from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory... It felt like an archetype to me, but I might be misunderstanding you.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Fi/Te perhaps?
> 
> I MUST HAVE THINGS MAKE SENSE. At 10 years old, I e-mailed an author (he actually answered me, there's a shock) to ask WHY this character, a child, didn't do THIS instead of THAT, because THIS would have solved the problem. He didn't really have an answer other than "He didn't think of it." I thought that was a cop out. If *I* could think of it, the character should have been able to think of it.
> 
> Then again, Ti is a problem solving function. Something wrong? Bugging you? Seems terrible? Fix it. Think about it, try out things, and ... fix it. Get out of it. Change the problem into a solution. So, I charge into the world prepared to challenge it, to find logical loopholes and exploit them. I want there to be NO WAY anyone can look at anything I've written and say, "They could have done this." Yeah, no. Been there, thought about that, wrote it in such a way the solution could not be any other way than what the character wound up choosing.


But sometimes what a character chooses not to do (even though they _can _and _should_) says a lot about them???



angelcat said:


> Then again, I'm an Enneagram 6. Heightened logic. Inclined to challenge and rip apart every argument. Major problem solver, rather effortlessly. I don't even know how it works, sometimes -- it just does. Give me a problem, whether it's how to do something mechanical or build something, or stuff an object back into padding in a box, and I just ... do it.
> 
> So, yes, I pick holes in logic in everything I watch, if they are there to be found. It can be really annoying to other people, and to me, because ... you can't enjoy stuff if you're going, 'BUT WHY...?'


I wouldn't consider this a strictly Ti thing. Mass Effect 3, Battlestar Galactica, Lost (for example) were disappointments because they ended sloppily and didn't bother to tie everything together. I have to suspend disbelief when it comes to things like sci-fi, but only to a point.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> But sometimes what a character chooses not to do (even though they _can _and _should_) says a lot about them???
> 
> I wouldn't consider this a strictly Ti thing. Mass Effect 3, Battlestar Galactica, Lost (for example) were disappointments because they ended sloppily and didn't bother to tie everything together. I have to suspend disbelief when it comes to things like sci-fi, but only to a point.


On your first point - yes. Like in _Crime and Punishment_. Raskolnikov should have just gotten a job. He didn't have to rob those ladies. It made no sense. But it did make sense to him, and it making sense to him says a lot about his view of the world and what he sees as justified. (Why work a menial job and make a good living when I could just kill this cranky lady and steal some of her money? Gosh, he's so the opposite of Jean Valjean.) 

Some things do bother me. Especially when it's a major plot. Like let's say I was reading a Percy Jackson book and the answer is obvious, they could just do this, but they don't. That would annoy me. 

Or - oh! I distinctly remember this happening when I was maybe nine. My seven year old cousin and I were watching Little Eisteins with my sister, and making fun of it. And then they decided to _wind around_ the hill to get to the top... in a rocket... We couldn't stop laughing! What the heck! I realize now it was probably just an aesthetic choice, but they could have easily just gone straight up. I mean... They're in a rocket. 

Sometimes I can attribute things to just the character being short sighted, but if it's a big thing that the plot hangs on, I get annoyed when it's inherently illogical (by my excellent inferior Ti standards).


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> On your first point - yes. Like in _Crime and Punishment_. Raskolnikov should have just gotten a job. He didn't have to rob those ladies. It made no sense. But it did make sense to him, and it making sense to him says a lot about his view of the world and what he sees as justified. (Why work a menial job and make a good living when I could just kill this cranky lady and steal some of her money? Gosh, he's so the opposite of Jean Valjean.)
> 
> Some things do bother me. Especially when it's a major plot. Like let's say I was reading a Percy Jackson book and *the answer is obvious, they could just do this, but they don't. That would annoy me. *
> 
> Or - oh! I distinctly remember this happening when I was maybe nine. My seven year old cousin and I were watching Little Eisteins with my sister, and making fun of it. And then they decided to _wind around_ the hill to get to the top... in a rocket... We couldn't stop laughing! What the heck! I realize now it was probably just an aesthetic choice, but they could have easily just gone straight up. I mean... They're in a rocket.
> 
> Sometimes I can attribute things to just the character being short sighted, but *if it's a big thing that the plot hangs on, I get annoyed when it's inherently illogical* (by my excellent inferior Ti standards).


I like to imagine most people feel this way unless they're in it for eye candy or thrills


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I just want the _perfect_ remake of fairy tales. I want the one that's... perfect, the right one. I guess that's harder to explain... like all the fairy tale remakes make my head wobbly. You have Cinderella in Once Upon A Time, who is basically like a sad teenage mom who sells her child to the devil. You have Cinderella in Into The Woods, who is... I don't know, "not good, not bad, just nice," (idk I actually like Into The Woods Cinderella). Then you have the new Cinderella in the new Cinderella movie.... and _now_ you're going to have _yet another_ Cinderella in the new Disney Channel Original Movie...
> 
> I actually like the new Cinderella movie. I think that's the closest one to the "truth". I can't really express how well I think that movie fit, how it's just so... good. I mean they say they pleased the feminists with it (I guess because Cinderella tried to run away?), but I think they just did a wonderful job characterizing Cinderella... and... everything. (My one problem was the fairy god mother, but that's negligible.)
> 
> But... Let's say that I ran Disney...
> 
> We would come up with a coherent universe for the Disney Princesses. Which... It is implied, I think, that there is a coherent universe within the Disney World - see all the hints that Rapunzel is cousin to Anna and Elsa - and that Anna and Elsa's parents were Tarzan'sarents - and - there's a lot of theories out there, but they don't all quite fit. They do a little, but it's still sloppy world building to an extent. Mostly because they aren't aiming for world building when they do a Disney movie, but... I would work out the kinks. Maybe not in the animated versions, but in the Live Action versions... Everything would flow. They would all be true to the spirit of the original Disney movie, but _still_ exist in a coherent universe.
> 
> And... That's actually what I expected from Once Upon A Time. The advertisements make it seem like that. But... no. Once Upon A Time is a terrible example of world building. I mean, I think it's because it is such a tricky topic... but they didn't think about it enough. I think they did a shallow jumbling of the fairy tale stories (with new, random characteristics added to the characters... like what the heck? I love Snow White, but why is she a ninja? Pretty sure that's not how the story goes), but they landed far from what I see as the weird "truth" of the stories, I guess.


This is so interesting! In a way I do have my "perfect" fairy tale remakes in my head, but then there are also several other options that seem interesting. I also accept multiple versions of things. Like @Greyhart and @angelcat I _love_ to play around with archetypes and I love works that explore all of their potential: deconstructing them, taking them apart and recombining them, merging them with other stories, subversions. I wrote my undergrad thesis about how Salman Rushdie does this because it interest me so much.

But I find your approach interesting too (I'd love to see this unified Disney princess universe, even if I also like the possibilities that multiple universes afford). My boyfriend is kind of similar I think. Not specifically with fairytales but with archetypes in general. He winds up liking far fewer characters than I do because he gets frustrated when they don't act the "right" way—by which he means they don't act consistently with how he believes that type of character ideally acts (this also applies to villains). I care more that the character is internally consistent. I get frustrated when the writers make the character behave however the plot demands. I want characters to mostly drive the action, rather than the other way around. Similarly I want the fictional world to be consistent with itself.

I really need to see the new _Cinderella_. Currently _Ever After_'s Danielle is my favourite Cinderella. I adore her. I do think to some extent she is closest to my ideal. I always get frustrated that everyone knows the Perrault version of Cinderella when I think the Grimm version is much more compelling. Aschenputtel plays a bigger role in her salvation without becoming action hero (she nurtures the tree that magically assists her), she is clever, and she is resourceful in a way that the Perrault/animated Disney/almost every Cinderella is not. Give me magic trees inhabited by a mother's spirit, not fairy godmothers. And give me a Cinderella that evades capture by escaping into a dovecote. (I know _Into the Woods_' Cinderella is based on the Grimm version, but I think Danielle is closer in spirit and she has that resourcefulness.

That said, there are so many other fascinating "Cinderella" type stories throughout the world that could be adapted into wondrous films. I'd love to see that. Or even a story that addresses the different incarnations of fairytale archetypes throughout the world. I'm fascinated by how the same essential stories occur in many cultures. I love exploring both the similarities and differences between them.


----------



## Darkbloom

angelcat said:


> Fi/Te perhaps?
> 
> I MUST HAVE THINGS MAKE SENSE. At 10 years old, I e-mailed an author (he actually answered me, there's a shock) to ask WHY this character, a child, didn't do THIS instead of THAT, because THIS would have solved the problem. He didn't really have an answer other than "He didn't think of it." I thought that was a cop out. If *I* could think of it, the character should have been able to think of it.
> 
> Then again, Ti is a problem solving function. Something wrong? Bugging you? Seems terrible? Fix it. Think about it, try out things, and ... fix it. Get out of it. Change the problem into a solution. So, I charge into the world prepared to challenge it, to find logical loopholes and exploit them. I want there to be NO WAY anyone can look at anything I've written and say, "They could have done this." Yeah, no. Been there, thought about that, wrote it in such a way the solution could not be any other way than what the character wound up choosing.
> 
> Then again, I'm an Enneagram 6. Heightened logic. Inclined to challenge and rip apart every argument. Major problem solver, rather effortlessly. I don't even know how it works, sometimes -- it just does. Give me a problem, whether it's how to do something mechanical or build something, or stuff an object back into padding in a box, and I just ... do it.
> 
> So, yes, I pick holes in logic in everything I watch, if they are there to be found. It can be really annoying to other people, and to me, because ... you can't enjoy stuff if you're going, 'BUT WHY...?'


I don't think it's Te,my NFP mother definitely cares about things like that,not exactly Ti-ish "MUST MAKE SENSE" but she notices mistakes at least,and that ideas maybe aren't executed quite right,she also often wonders when it comes to some action scenes "Is it possible according to laws of physics?" and I'm like
It's just...I don't know,I do sometimes notice something is off but I can't really come up with a more logical idea so I let it be XD

Being a 6w5 AND tertiary Ti does highten logic XD, that's probably it, different focus maybe.
Actually, just remembered, I tend to be bothered by characters not making sense, like becoming unexplainably different personality or vibe-wise(like,changing style without anyone in the show noticing it) and for example in Pretty Little Liars it annoyed me that actress who plays Alison gained some weight,not because she looks bad(she looks better imo) but because in the past her character made a girl develop an eating disorder,she's ALISON how can her body be anything but perfect? 
Actually that show is probably any T function's nightmare lol,but I still like parts of it(I don't even try to find logic though)
But also,I think that almost anything can be viewed in a way that makes it make sense,and I do that a lot XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom if I get another thanks from you...

Edit: I'm looking for an appropriate gif for this post. Give me a second.

Edit 2:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> On your first point - yes. Like in _Crime and Punishment_. Raskolnikov should have just gotten a job. He didn't have to rob those ladies. It made no sense. But it did make sense to him, and it making sense to him says a lot about his view of the world and what he sees as justified. (Why work a menial job and make a good living when I could just kill this cranky lady and steal some of her money? Gosh, he's so the opposite of Jean Valjean.)
> 
> *Some things do bother me. Especially when it's a major plot.* Like let's say I was reading a Percy Jackson book and *the answer is obvious, they could just do this, but they don't. That would annoy me. *
> 
> Or - oh! I distinctly remember this happening when I was maybe nine. My seven year old cousin and I were watching Little Eisteins with my sister, and making fun of it. And then they decided to _wind around_ the hill to get to the top... in a rocket... We couldn't stop laughing! What the heck! I realize now it was probably just an aesthetic choice, but they could have easily just gone straight up. I mean... They're in a rocket.
> 
> Sometimes I can attribute things to just the character being short sighted, but if it's a big thing that the plot hangs on, I get annoyed when it's inherently illogical (by my excellent inferior Ti standards).


Constant background noise of my life. Enjoying fiction more like "U could've done this or that and save me 50 pages of angst." *exasperated sigh* Out of recent my complains for AoU and characters failing at basic human logic in order to advance plot. Tony, I'm so so _so_ disappointed.



alittlebear said:


> Like I actually told Curious Elephant the other day (yesterday) that I could see her as not an ENTP because ENTPs are sort of... hard, and they have like a little bit of drop space between their balloons I guess and their hard side, but their hard side is right there, and it's kind of just... pale, I guess. It's blunt. When you run into it, you run into it. And then I said to my friend that I did _not_ see that in her. She also hard a hard side, but it was much deeper buried, a little darker, and covered by bubbles (almost). She's a lot more sweet for longer extensions of time, but when you hit the hard side of her... you hit it hard, with is increased because you've been floundering so long through her bubbly-ness.











OK I got most of it except for why is it pale? The hard side?



angelcat said:


> LOL. Comparing yourself to ARCHETYPES of SJs (people I know who are CLEARLY SJs and I AM NOT LIKE THEM, SO I AM NOT ONE)? ... classic high Si move. Classic. I did the same thing. Most Si-doms/auxes do. *Higher Ne, in my experience, not so much. Statement by my ENFP friend: "I don't think any of them will fit me." Me: "You're an ENFP, like Anne Shirley." Her: "AHHH, THAT MAKES SENSE."*


*snort* Yes. Same for my INFP bff. Mother gets me trying to explain my type via Don Quixote socionics archetype.


----------



## Max

We're debating over Te/Ti? And things not making sense? So am I . . .

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=554298


----------



## Greyhart

Ya'll talking about perfect princesses all I wanted as a kid was an actual mad girl scientist. ( Princess mad scientist?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Ya'll talking about perfect princesses all I wanted as a kid was an actual mad girl scientist. ( Princess mad scientist?


Okay but try princess dog woman _president_?

Were you the ENTP on the Disney Princess thread who said you related to Mulan?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Okay but try princess dog woman _president_?


Whaaaaat



> Were you the ENTP on the Disney Princess thread who said you related to Mulan?


Wouldn't say relate that much but she is my favorite, yes. The "pole part". Das my girl.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @fair phantom if I get another thanks from you...
> 
> Edit: I'm looking for an appropriate gif for this post. Give me a second.
> 
> Edit 2:












LOL. I'm sorry. I know I'm a bit thank-happy. I'm like that on tumblr with likes. I guess sometimes I don't know the balance between acknowledging people and being annoying. It is so much easier when non-verbal reaction is possible. Nods. Nods are great.


----------



## Greyhart

Genuinely can't remember any character I related as a kid  As I said earlier I used to write myself in as a side kick character.

So what you means with that metaphor that ENTPs have a hard core that is however doesn't hit too hard and that the "soft bubbles" of Fe surounding it have spaces between them so Ti always glimmers there? And FPs are like bubbles bubbles bubles TITANIUM CORE WITH EDGES OF SOME SHIT?


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> Ya'll talking about perfect princesses all I wanted as a kid was an actual mad girl scientist. ( Princess mad scientist?












not quite mad maybe, but...


----------



## 68097

Sure, a character can make a choice that isn't logical, and it will say a lot about their personality -- but in my stories, the choices characters make will never be choices simply because they were too stupid to think up a better solution than the dumb one they did. Like me, my characters over-think everything and with what strikes them as the most rational choice -- even the feeler personalities. 

You want a frickin' logical nightmare? _Grimm_. I love it, because it's playing with archetypes on a major level (hunters, monsters, fairy tale creatures, fighting your inner nature, tropes, symbolism), but the logic is _total_ bollocks. In the season finale, they publicly arrested their enemy for a murder, put him in a cop car, drove the cop car to a remote warehouse, and let him go, so that the hero could kill him in single combat and avenge the deaths of other characters. 

I could not concentrate on the epic showdown, because all I could think was: how the hell are you going to explain how an arrested suspect that should have been in a holding cell is going to turn up dead 20 miles away? Suspend disbelief, much? Like, the press won't wonder about that? Like, the cops who witnessed the arrest won't wonder about that? 

That's not how reality, and the legal system, works, thanks.


----------



## fair phantom

I don't know that I've ever considered how well I remember voices and faces.  I think I'm average at remembering faces and not good at remembering voices, but I'm not actually sure.

I forget names too. What I remember most about people are general impressions, maybe something interesting or unique about them (an idea they had or story they told), how they made me feel, how I felt about them.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Aye, just got back on the thread but I actually don't like it when people take the 7 intelligences as fact. I think it's a good tool, and a good example of how there are multiple intelligences (especially rivaling the approach that IQ took), but I think it's a little silly to think we've covered all intelligences. I'm not sure what, but that model is missing something. (I don't really want to debate this and don't know why I said it, I don't think the 7 intelligences model is harmful but it just annoys me because I don't think it's quite the truth.)


Yes you're correct. The model is very black and white, and doesn't even account for emotional intelligence, critical thinking, abstract thinking, creativity, and plenty more. I only like it for the idea that its premise is based off of- which is that intelligence is not just being good at solving math problems.


----------



## Max

Am I the only ESTJ who seriously doesn't give a fuck about the gay marriage debate? Whatever. They're milking this whole thing.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Then how the fudgoseph does Fe work then? Haha.


I basically don't think this has anything to do with the memory. OK, but if I *had to* speculate, Fe&Si having Ti would go for impressions of person instead of snapshot picture "He had a pleasant smile." maybe? You know my face is so movable and changeable that I am struck with "I look different today" every morning :\

So bro let me tell you really short how memory works in **** sapiens. Probably this is how memory works in creatures that have it, tbh. 

Long-term memories are formed by bringing something up often enough for it to strengthen in I forgot the part of the brain where long-term memories are stored (cortex?).

So for example you study for exams, you go to exams, you get whatever mark you get and never think of what you’ve learned ever again aka almost everything you’ve studied in a school.

Meanwhile, what people call “random trivia” is something you’ve either learned for fun OR something that bothered you. So you keep going back to it for fun or because it bothers you still.



TelepathicGoose said:


> Yes you're correct. The model is very black and white, and doesn't even account for emotional intelligence, critical thinking, abstract thinking, creativity, and plenty more. I only like it for the idea that its premise is based off of- which is that intelligence is not just being good at solving math problems.


It looks like "the stuff you are into" to me. So in terms the stuff I am into - I am into everything expect for kinetic thing. In my defense I am an asthmatic with eyesight so bad I can't take a shower without glasses.  Disaster for sport things.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Am I the only ESTJ who seriously doesn't give a fuck about the gay marriage debate? Whatever. They're milking this whole thing.


Not happening here for a while but for USA it seems to be an overblown issue, especially when part of the country already legalized it and the Hell hasn't risen. I suspect a lot of people just want it to get over with so the media could move on back to Bieber's escapades.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> It looks like "the stuff you are into" to me. So in terms the stuff I am into - I am into everything expect for kinetic thing. In my defense I am an asthmatic with eyesight so bad I can't take a shower without glasses.  Disaster for sport things.


Yeah, you're right.

It is the same with me. I'm horrible at sports, and I don't really enjoy them. My eyes are horrible as well, so maybe that's why? Or maybe because I have a difficult time acting in the moment, because my sensing function is inferior and whatnot.


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yeah, you're right.
> 
> It is the same with me. I'm horrible at sports, and I don't really enjoy them. My eyes are horrible as well, so maybe that's why? Or maybe because I have a difficult time acting in the moment, because my sensing function is inferior and whatnot.


My glasses distort my view so badly that when I wear my contacts everything just looks WEIRD. Bigger. My hands are huge, my face is huge. AAAAAH. Anyway, in glasses distance and shapes of things becomes distorted to it's harder to judge when the ball is flying into your face.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> My glasses distort my view so badly that when I wear my contacts everything just looks WEIRD. Bigger. My hands are huge, my face is huge. AAAAAH. Anyway, in glasses distance and shapes of things becomes distorted to it's harder to judge when the ball is flying into your face.


Whenever I take my glasses off - even without contacts- everything is _huge._ It's terrifying, I'm so near-sighted that everything is significantly smaller with my glasses on. It feels unnatural when I take them off or wear contacts, like everything is just too big.

Well I do have a habit of missing the ball in sports, but I'm just so damn un-athletic and I have no coordination whatsoever, so that is probably the reasoning for that.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> My glasses distort my view so badly that when I wear my contacts everything just looks WEIRD. Bigger. My hands are huge, my face is huge. AAAAAH. Anyway, in glasses distance and shapes of things becomes distorted to it's harder to judge when the ball is flying into your face.


Yes! My dog is tiny, but when I wear contacts he is huge, so big, so much fluff. 

Things are bigger and closer. However! I bought glasses with large frames, aka the "hipster" type, because they give me more periphery vision and don't distort as much as my smaller glasses.

:th_cool:


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> I basically don't think this has anything to do with the memory. OK, but if I *had to* speculate, Fe&Si having Ti would go for impressions of person instead of snapshot picture "He had a pleasant smile." maybe? You know my face is so movable and changeable that I am struck with "I look different today" every morning :\
> 
> So bro let me tell you really short how memory works in **** sapiens. Probably this is how memory works in creatures that have it, tbh.
> 
> Long-term memories are formed by bringing something up often enough for it to strengthen in I forgot the part of the brain where long-term memories are stored (cortex?).
> 
> So for example you study for exams, you go to exams, you get whatever mark you get and never think of what you’ve learned ever again aka almost everything you’ve studied in a school.
> 
> Meanwhile, what people call “random trivia” is something you’ve either learned for fun OR something that bothered you. So you keep going back to it for fun or because it bothers you still.
> 
> Not happening here for a while but for USA it seems to be an overblown issue, especially when part of the country already legalized it and the Hell hasn't risen. I suspect a lot of people just want it to get over with so the media could move on back to Bieber's escapades.


Yeah, the random trivia part is true. 

So, apparently I am actually a textbook xSTP haha. Apparently I'm not an ESTJ at all... feh lol

True. Here they make a big deal over a cake saying to legalize gay marriage...


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, the random trivia part is true.
> 
> So, apparently I am actually a textbook xSTP haha. Apparently I'm not an ESTJ at all... feh lol
> 
> True. Here they make a big deal over a cake saying to legalize gay marriage...


Pffft, I say. Pffft.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Pffft, I say. Pffft.


I am starting to believe this Auxiliary Fe theory lol. 

Either this, or I have some kinda personality disorder haha. Like some altee ego shit.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I am starting to believe this Auxiliary Fe theory lol.
> 
> Either this, or I have some kinda personality disorder haha. Like some altee ego shit.


:ninja:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> :ninja:


How the hell do we go from me having Te-Si-Ne-Fi to Ti-Se-Fe-Ni in such a short time? Ironic they're both shadow types eh?

Mr. SHADOW.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> How the hell do we go from me having Te-Si-Ne-Fi to Ti-Se-Fe-Ni in such a short time? Ironic they're both shadow types eh?
> 
> Mr. SHADOW.


Well, I joined in October after getting INTJ result and being like well this is kind of me I am an ass. In my case I confused "predicting thing" of Ni with Ne-Ti process (make a lot ideas -> cut off unlikely), Te "knowledge storage" with Si random trivia and low Fi with low Fe because a-holes.



shinynotshiny said:


> Yes! My dog is tiny, but when I wear contacts he is huge, so big, so much fluff.
> 
> Things are bigger and closer. However! *I bought glasses with large frames, aka the "hipster" type, because they give me more periphery vision and don't distort as much as my smaller glasses.*
> 
> :th_cool:


YES. Precisely. My parents used to get me those tiny professor glasses so when I finally got to try on the huge one the field of view was staggering.



TelepathicGoose said:


> Whenever I take my glasses off - even without contacts- everything is _huge._ It's terrifying, I'm so near-sighted that everything is significantly smaller with my glasses on. It feels unnatural when I take them off or wear contacts, like everything is just too big.
> 
> Well I do have a habit of missing the ball in sports, but I'm just so damn un-athletic and I have no coordination whatsoever, so that is probably the reasoning for that.


When I take off my glasses everything is an abstract painting. Those moving shapes with pink on top are people? I hope they are...


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Well, I joined in October after getting INTJ result and being like well this is kind of me I am an ass. In my case I confused "predicting thing" of Ni with Ne-Ti process (make a lot ideas -> cut off unlikely), Te "knowledge storage" with Si random trivia and low Fi with low Fe because a-holes.
> 
> 
> YES. Precisely. My parents used to get me those tiny professor glasses so when I finally got to try on the huge one the field of view was staggering.
> 
> 
> When I take off my glasses everything is an abstract painting. Those moving shapes with pink on top are people? I hope they are...


Hm. . . So that means that I am opposites of @alittlebear if they are correct. But I still am convinced my Si is strong. 

Hm glasses issues? I was supposed to get a new pair of glasses, but I never did. I can see out of these older ones fine. What do I need a new pair for? And my eyesight is so bad, I need reading glasses also or else the words are blurred.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> When I take off my glasses everything is an abstract painting. Those moving shapes with pink on top are people? I hope they are...


Everything without glasses is a blob. Pink blobs are humans, brown blobs are furniture, red blobs are blood. Blob human nation for the win...?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@LuchoIsLurking,

Just wanted to share this with you. I originally thought I was an INFJ, but ended up being an ENFP. I went from Ni-Fe-Ti-Se to Ne-Fi-Te-Si. All of my function attitudes were reversed, but they were in the correct place. So, it's entirely possible- and actually quite common- for this to occur.

May I ask, are you considering ISTP now...?


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> Everything without glasses is a blob. Pink blobs are humans, brown blobs are furniture, red blobs are blood. Blob human nation for the win...?


The "How many fingers you see?" question, tho. "There won't be any if you keep doing that."


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> The "How many fingers you see?" question, tho. "There won't be any if you keep doing that."


Let's get the chainsaw!!!111


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay. So here's my glasses issue. 

I don't care. I don't care if I see every leaf on a tree. It's nice - especially since I love trees - but I can get by without it. Yes, it takes me half a second longer to read than it normally would, but ultimately _I do not care. _ My mom especially hates it, but is don't care for my glasses. I wear them in class both to feel smart and get in my Thinking Zone and to read the board, and I wear them to movies, but other than that I'm like "okay these make me look 45% nerdier than they usually do and the visual help isn't enough to outweigh that." I'm fine with not seeing everything, honestly, as long as I see what I need to see.


----------



## orbit

ae1905 said:


> Then there's the proof of your type. Only an ENFJ can bring ppl together and happily chat for 100+ pages.


Is this a stereotype or legit? Or a joke?


----------



## Max

Curiphant said:


> Is this a stereotype or legit? Or a joke?


It's obviously a legit joke based around stereotypes ;D


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I'm trying not to be stubborn. I apologize ahead of time because I realize I am being stubborn.
> 
> - Again, some of this is my anxiety I think. And I don't believe any of the SJs we've discussed this with sided with me about hating the lack of realism and application to appreciating the real world.
> 
> - yes, it's subjective, but who said Ni isn't subjective? This is one thing I truly do understand as Ni (so I will need correcting here) - seeing and seeking the ONE truth over the many truths. And I am not driven to find my truth... I am driven to find the true, universal truth. (This is probably immature Ti, admittedly, but we have understood it as Ni.) I'm also going to need clarification due to my understanding of Ni as the understanding of the world that I keep (not from my experiences - I'll pull up the quote where I explained how I experienced Ni). Honestly that seems really Ni to me, and that's really what I'm going to need correcting about.
> 
> - I'm not convinced that "specific = Si". It's not just that. I feel time. My life is time. I'm constantly manipulating time in a way that others cannot fathom.
> 
> - I understand that not everyone experiences functions the same way, but I'm still not seeing now my experience of symbolism would in any way resemble the Si archetypes.


Tiny bit stubborn 

Two things that stood out to me, and the first is a curiosity: is Ni intolerant of others' truths? and also, you may have to explain how you manipulate time.


----------



## ae1905

LuchoIsLurking said:


> It's obviously a legit joke based around stereotypes ;D


You're stereotyping my jokes, and that's not legit. But thanks anyway.


----------



## ae1905

Curiphant said:


> Is this a stereotype or legit? Or a joke?


It's my Ni insight so of course it's legit.


----------



## orbit

ae1905 said:


> It's my Ni insight so of course it's legit.


It took me a second to get it. 

How would Si symbolism work on alittlebear? Like she categorizes Shakespeare plays by colors and rooms and flowers (ex. Hamlet is red with a rose but I'm pretty sure she mentioned this somewhere). How could that function as Si?


----------



## ae1905

Curiphant said:


> Is this a stereotype or legit? Or a joke?


A P would've become distracted 80 pages ago and wandered off. An I wouldn't have the stamina to keep interacting with ppl for so long. A T would've turned this into a pissing match 70 pages ago. A S would've decided she had other things to do 60 pages ago. So what type is extroverted, a feeler, an intuitive, and a judger? Simple process of elimination: ENFJ.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Curiphant Stop defending my Ni so much *poke* 

Give me a second. I just went downstairs to eat a childhood favorite food of mine that I haven't consumed in years and have emerged back to the stairs with realization that a new possibility is possible. I'll be listing some random reasons why Si (ISFJ) could actually make a ton of sense for me shortly.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ae1905 said:


> A P would've become distracted 80 pages ago and wandered off. An I wouldn't have the stamina to keep interacting with ppl for so long. A T would've turned this into a pissing match 70 pages ago. So what type is extroverted, a feeler, and a judger? ENFJ.


Wow, that's a little typist 










You can leave. 

(JK JK JK sorry I appreciate your humor honestly <3)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_Curiphant_ Stop defending my Ni so much *poke*
> 
> Give me a second. I just went downstairs to *eat a childhood favorite food of mine that I haven't consumed in years* and have emerged back to the stairs with realization that a new possibility is possible. I'll be listing some random reasons why Si (ISFJ) could actually make a ton of sense for me shortly.


Hmmmmmmm? Hmmm.


----------



## ae1905

Curiphant said:


> It took me a second to get it.
> 
> How would Si symbolism work on alittlebear? Like she categorizes Shakespeare plays by colors and rooms and flowers (ex. Hamlet is red with a rose but I'm pretty sure she mentioned this somewhere). How could that function as Si?


Roses are red,
Hamlet is blue,
alittlebear is ENFJ
That much is true.

Does that answer your question? No? Then you asked the wrong question. Try again.


----------



## Max

So.. if it turns out @alittlebear might be an SJ, @shinynotshiny might be one, and @Oswin and I are ones... can we make this the official SJ meeting place? ;D

If not. Can we make 'em honorary SJs? ;D 
@ae1905 is an Honorary ESFJ now ;D


----------



## orbit

Eating a childhood snack always changes one's life perspective or at least self perspective. But I'm just stating examples that I probably wrongly think happen to coincide with your Ni-Se axis. 
@ae1905, eh.... alittlebear has literally thrown two forum sections into civil war and war against each other before so... Not so sure about the pissing match c:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> So.. if it turns out @alittlebear might be an SJ, @shinynotshiny might be one, and @Oswin and I are ones... can we make this the official SJ meeting place? ;D
> 
> If not. Can we make 'em honorary SJs? ;D
> @ae1905 is an Honorary ESFJ now ;D


Butt-butt...I'm an NP. :crying:

We're sure on ENFP for me...right?

Also I stand by firmly that @alittlebear is an NJ. She has that obvious Ni and has the outlook of the Ni/Se axis...but that's my Fi opinion.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Butt-butt...I'm an NP. :crying:
> 
> We're sure on ENFP for me...right?


Honorary ISTJ


----------



## fair phantom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> So.. if it turns out @alittlebear might be an SJ, @shinynotshiny might be one, and @Oswin and I are ones... can we make this the official SJ meeting place? ;D
> 
> If not. Can we make 'em honorary SJs? ;D
> @ae1905 is an Honorary ESFJ now ;D


Does this mean I have to leave? :sad:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Honorary ISTJ


Oh heeeelll no. I am not going to be an ISTJ, not when the ISTJ I fell in love with broke my wittle heart. :dry:


----------



## Max

fair phantom said:


> Does this mean I have to leave? :sad:


You're an Honorary ESTJ


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> Does this mean I have to leave? :sad:


We can go make a cool NP clan and ditch these guys.

#swag


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Also, I could never do what @angelcat does. She runs so many things. She's involved in so many things. I mean, look even at her signature. She runs a few publications(?), at least two blogs, and I sure other things I'm not aware of. I don't think that's my strength.


I am indeed master of the universe. Thanks for noticing. Curtsy on your way out.

My belief is that @alittlebear is indeed an ENFJ. So much Fe. So much Ni. Seeing a person as a seashell? 

Pfft, that isn't Si. Not remotely. She's the kind of NFJ that makes little ole SFJs like me say, "I love you, but I have no idea what you're talking about." LOL


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> All NFs practice polygamy. Everyone in the past was NF. Everyone in the Ibo culture prior to Imperialism was an NF


Wait...what?


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Wait...what?


You mean you don't support polygamy???????


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I am indeed master of the universe. Thanks for noticing. Curtsy on your way out.
> 
> My belief is that @alittlebear is indeed an ENFJ. So much Fe. So much Ni. Seeing a person as a seashell?
> 
> Pfft, that isn't Si. Not remotely. She's the kind of NFJ that makes little ole SFJs like me say, "I love you, but I have no idea what you're talking about." LOL


Read my latest post and forgive me if I used misconceptions of Si. (I either stereotyped Si or got it right.)


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Silly. You know what I meant.


I do know what you mean.

I fell in love whether I wanted to or not. I'm over him now, but it took me a year and a half...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Hmmmmmmm? Hmmm.


Intentional irony detected.


----------



## orbit

ae1905 said:


> well, I can see how banning groupies can start a war...but I always said ENFJs are friendly dictators, so...just sayin


Yeah I know. I think it's hilarious becuase it was dumb. This was a kid forum. 

Alittlebear would be an interesting dictator. She'd probably call everyone who does something wrong a frog and send them to kindergartner teachers


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> You mean you don't support polygamy???????


I poof to type a post and I come back to this.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Yeah I know. I think it's hilarious becuase it was dumb. This was a kid forum.
> 
> Alittlebear would be an interesting dictator. She'd probably call everyone who does something wrong a frog and send them to kindergartner teachers


Oh my gosh Curiphant you cannot just tell people my war stories


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Now I'm going to apologize if these reasons for seeing Si in me are shallow and false. It's probably the opposite of that, but just in case. (I'll be the first to admit that I'm still learning these functions and totally undeserving of this golden name thingy.)
> 
> - I just used the term "golden name thingy". Not very Ni.
> 
> - I do get the hang of something after a while. I'm an excellent help at my mother's work because I _know what to do_. I'm not such a good help at the soup kitchen or at a new job because I don't know what to do. Practice helps me. (Not with everything - in school, practice hardly helps me at all - but physically it helps me quite a bit.)
> 
> - I need to know my place before I do something. I flounder if I do not know my place. I need a specific job. I need someone to tell me what to do. I don't just make myself helpful naturally, most the time I need to be directed. (Which is part of my awkwardness and uselessness - I want to help, but it is very hard for me.)
> 
> - And I think this is also part of my being physically out of sync. Being physically in sync would be an Se thing, but in have a very hard time with that. (I think I live in the moment and act very quickly like Se, and I do not at all fear the future because I am confident I can handle whatever comes, which isn't really inferior Ne... but I do think my being out of sync could be Se.)
> 
> - I like things that remind me of myself, and that I see myself in. Not completely - I don't feel it totally as I remember @angelcat describing - but I mean I love trees and elephants and green and blue because I see myself in them (to some extent). Same with libraries, children (... kind of), certain books...
> 
> - I love serving others. Which... you've got to admit, is pretty stereotypically ISFJ.
> 
> I had more but I'm blanking. Umm...
> 
> - Oh! Oh gosh. When I was little I HAD to keep all the things I colored. I was obsessive about it, and got very upset if like we couldn't take home the cups we got or the little children's menus we got.
> 
> - I loved to "play pretend" when I was little. All the time. I mentioned earlier on this thread that I still sort of do. Not as much,but for instance I considered thinking about what my favorite book characters would be doing if they were at the beach with me (because I was bored and didn't want to be at the beach). I don't do it now like at all, but when I was little almost my whole world was my imagination. When I was younger, my imaginary friends kept me company. And I often took them with me on car rides and stuff. (Ne.)
> 
> - I like to brag about how I got the lead in the school play because I remembered literally everyone else's lines and they stuck me in at the last moment. I was six.
> 
> - The thought of changing my type makes me scared now. I think it could perhaps be because I fear change.
> 
> - My professor called me in insightful. I'm still offended and think he is wrong - he has absolutely _no idea_ how deeply I understand things, see things, _know things_ - but I mean if I put my pride aside maybe me being non intuitive has so sing to do with it. (It's hard for me to count this though... because most my professors have always told me I am _very_ insightful, and in a way they have never seen before. But this one disagreed and told me straight up.)
> 
> - Just today I was thinking... I want to see my cousin again. I'm seeing him tomorrow... but it want more than that. I want what we can't have. I want to spend the night like we used to, telling stories and laughing and joking and messing around. A scenario which would be ridiculous and not socially appropriate at all now. I should look to the future. But it's hard for me. I just want us back again.
> 
> I have other things, but that's what I can think of for now. I'll probably have to do this for Ni too, because again I do need it cleared up why I'm not Ni, but... The more I think about it, I am pretty ISFJ. Even @Oswin said so when she saw my video.


You still use Ni. Reading this, it still sounds like an Ni user trying to manifest Si for some reason.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

_Sometimes I swear they just chat on my topic because they know I will compulsively thank every post..._


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> You mean you don't support polygamy???????


I do, but I myself would never become one. I prefer relationships where you focus on one significant other because you can dedicate all of your time to that one person. I have no problem if others like polygamy, though. To each his own.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> You still use Ni. Reading this, it still sounds like an Ni user trying to manifest Si for some reason.


I completely missed that post.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> _Sometimes I swear they just chat on my topic because they know I will compulsively thank every post..._


I love your Fe. 

Can I steal it. I want to be a super-nice, organized, Fe dom. ;(

Please.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> All NFs practice polygamy. Everyone in the past was NF. Everyone in the Ibo culture prior to Imperialism was an NF


You can't just throw in _Things Fall Apart_ references like that.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Wait...what?


You "marry" people in wars. As in people not person. Polygamy is the way to go


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> You "marry" people in wars. As in people not person. Polygamy is the way to go


_To each his own._


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> I do, but I myself would never become one. I prefer relationships where you focus on one significant other because you can dedicate all of your time to that one person. I have no problem if others like polygamy, though. To each his own.


It can be quite difficult, yes.

As for what I meant before, I was suggesting you not focus on love for the time being until you're a bit older and have more freedom to develop relationships.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> You can't just throw in _Things Fall Apart_ references like that.


Ah you ban a lot of things


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> I love your Fe.
> 
> Can I steal it. I want to be a super-nice, organized, Fe dom. ;(
> 
> Please.


I'm not organized though???? I'm a terrible J. My actually J room mate wants to kill me (only because of my sloppiness though). I judge others, and I plan my life, and I know what I want in the world, but I struggle to be organized which is why Isabella and Katherine would consider me a P even though I'm clearly an F and don't use Fi  my MBTI-seeking existence has been so difficult for me.


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear I agree with @TelepathicGoose that your post seems like Ni looking hard for Si

Out of curiousity, and sorry because i think you've mentioned this, but what types are your parents?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Forgive me if I can't obsessively thank all of your posts. /doesn't even know if she's being friendly or not/


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> It can be quite difficult, yes.
> 
> As for what I meant before, I was suggesting you not focus on love for the time being until you're a bit older and have more freedom to develop relationships.


I know what you're saying. And I've been attempting to adopt that mentality.

The problem is that I have a huge obsession with romance and I want to fall in love when I'm older, which causes me to be obsessed with it now.

Oh, and by the way. My birthday was today (it's marked wrong on my profile because I was too lazy to click on the correct date.)


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> _To each his own._


Oh no I agree. I was attempting to be humorous 
I think polygamy can be degrading unless both sexes practice but otherwise it's cool.


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> Forgive me if I can't obsessively thank all of your posts. /doesn't even know if she's being friendly or not/


Pity you can't double or triple thank eh? ;D


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Oh no I agree. I was attempting to be humorous
> I think polygamy can be degrading unless both sexes practice but otherwise it's cool.


Very true, very true.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> I know what you're saying. And I've been attempting to adopt that mentality.
> 
> The problem is that I have a huge obsession with romance and I want to fall in love when I'm older, which causes me to be obsessed with it now.
> 
> Oh, and by the way. My birthday was today (it's marked wrong on my profile because I was too lazy to click on the correct date.)


Happy birthday, Goosey~!










also you're still a young goose


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I'm not organized though???? I'm a terrible J. My actually J room mate wants to kill me (only because of my sloppiness though). I judge others, and I plan my life, and I know what I want in the world, but I struggle to be organized which is why Isabella and Katherine would consider me a P even though I'm clearly an F and don't use Fi  my MBTI-seeking existence has been so difficult for me.


You wouldn't be the first disorganized J I've met. My mother is on her stuff at work and she _likes_ to have things organized, but then she does things like tossing the mail anywhere and leaving it unopened for months.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear I agree with @TelepathicGoose that your post seems like Ni looking hard for Si
> 
> Out of curiousity, and sorry because i think you've mentioned this, but what types are your parents?


I actually don't know. I've seen my dad as _the_ ESTP for a while, but he does some stuff that makes me wonder. I think he's certain an Fe (and Ti) user, but sometimes he does stuff that seems like Si to me. (But he is still a classic SP. He loves to just ride around. He lives for experience. He keeps trying to teach me that "life begins outside my comfort zone". He just wants to be happy and support his family. He's happiest when he's on his boat with the rest of us, all having a good time, or out in the pool when we are out there enjoying it with him. So... basically what I associate with Se, although he's very grounded now.) (Even though he was that all in his youth. Archetypical ESP in his youth.) As for my mom, I'm convinced she's ISJ, and considering that she does a lot of what I recognize as Te/Fi and cannot fathom I would say that she's probably ISTJ.


----------



## Max

fair phantom said:


> You wouldn't be the first disorganized J I've met. My mother is on her stuff at work and she _likes_ to have things organized, but then she does things like tossing the mail anywhere and leaving it unopened for months.


Talking of disorganized Js. Under my bed is a refuge center. So damn messy. Lol. Actually... it gives refuge centers a bad name.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> You wouldn't be the first disorganized J I've met. My mother is on her stuff at work and she _likes_ to have things organized, but then she does things like tossing the mail anywhere and leaving it unopened for months.


I may be an ISTJ and my surroundings are currently a mess.


----------



## orbit

Happy birthday ^^

I live in a culture of students who look down on high school romance


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> You "marry" people in wars. As in people not person. Polygamy is the way to go


If only Helen had just married Paris and Menelaus...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Happy birthday ^^
> 
> I live in a culture of students who look down on high school romance


I am apart of a culture of people who are totally all in love with their high school sweethearts but I think your culture sounds agreeable.


----------



## Immolate

Okay, I read your post alittlebear. I have one question...

Sensors can't be insightful????


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@TelepathicGoose Also oh my goodness _happy birthday_, Gosling!! I'm so proud of you for surviving another year in our desolate country.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Okay, I read your post alittlebear. I have one question...
> 
> Sensors can't be insightful????


Don't start me xD


----------



## fair phantom

Happy Birthday @TelepathicGoose !!!


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Don't start me xD





alittlebear said:


> My professor called me in insightful. I'm still offended and think he is wrong - he has absolutely _no idea_ how deeply I understand things, see things, _know things_ - but I mean if I put my pride aside maybe me being non intuitive has so sing to do with it. (It's hard for me to count this though... because most my professors have always told me I am _very_ insightful, and in a way they have never seen before. But this one disagreed and told me straight up.)


What does this imply? Or do I need some sleep?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Okay, I read your post alittlebear. I have one question...
> 
> Sensors can't be insightful????


That's not what I meant, sorry! It did sound like that, yes. I mean I would imagine that an ISFJ would be more likely to rub her M professors the wrong way because she thinks she's saying insightful crap but really she's just regurgitating what they've heard a thousand times before. (I know this not to be true - I read @angelcat's book on symbolism in LOTR and she came up with stuff that blew my mind - but I mean) (yeah I have no defense that was stereotypical and offensive of me. I apologize. I do recognize that Ss are very insightful and anything that says otherwise is stupid... Sorry again for that offense.)


----------



## Psychopomp

alittlebear said:


> - Angelcat and I discussed how she thinks Ne is more likely to want to be in out-of-this-world world and Se and Ni are more likely to want to be grounded, in a world like our own. We also discussed in the Enneagram thread how this could be both lower Ti and Se.


This is something of a misinterpretation of something I do agree with ... that Se/Ni - Ni/Se is about the real world, and the symbols in it... and Si/Ne - Ne/Si is often about a private world and new possibilities from that. But, this is SUPER easy to misinterpret. Let's say this. Ni/Se-Se/Ni is visceral and hyper engaged. I'll cite Yoko Ono here... very visceral, and when mystical it was visceral symbolism. Not like, celtic runes or whatever. It is intensity, and IMAGES... it is almost obscene to me:

fashion â€” MATT SPENCER PHOTOGRAPHY

((I thought I mentioned that this is the website of a close friend of mine who is an INFJ, but I didn't.... but now I have))

...but awesome, obviously. We attribute this intense aesthetic to Se, but it is actually the interaction of Se and Ni, and mainly driven by Ni. For example, one of the only places you will see a disproportionately large number of Ni types on television would be Project Runway. There are sometimes more than one, two or even three Ni-doms or aux on that show in any run. Still a minority, but it is interesting. 



alittlebear said:


> - ... No. I dislike it when the fairy tales are not true to their core. I'm fine with reinterpretations, but I don't like a bunch of false interpretations of the fairy tales that don't get at what I see as the core of the fairy tale (which is difficult, because I see the core as indescribable. I can see it a little but not explain it.)


I've found that Ni types are profoundly disinterested, to the point of blindness and antagonism, with fairy tales or fantasy at all. They don't seem to like it. I have not deeply investigated why. But, don't mistake this for a rational dislike... as you might have... but a fundamental perceptual one. They are nothing to them. Not on the table, not on the radar. You ask Yoko Ono, or Tori Amos, or whomever, about fairy tales she stares blankly at you... like, "why are we talking about nothing?" Same with INTJ. No interest... at least so far as I have observed. 



alittlebear said:


> - The being conscious of time thing is actually something that is said to be an indicator of Ni according to Socionics. (It's actually one of the things about me that made them sure I was an ENFJ.) As for keeping up with appointments, that's actually more of my mom's thing. And I use the example of, my mother has to write down appointments to remember them, but I just have them tattooed in my mind. I don't have to write anything down and she does. We get into arguments about this too frequently. Neither of us understand each other.


Socionics... I have no comment other than a general and ever-growing bewilderment. 



alittlebear said:


> - I don't see how my "symbolism" could be Si mythology (at this time, at least, because I may and probably do have a fundamental misunderstanding of Si and Ni). As I discussed last night, I don't relate to how Angelcat discussed archetypes at all. I do see what I think of as the "souls" of people, but to me... It's different and stable for every person. I'm not going through and seeing this person as... like, a seashell, because this is how seashell people are. I'm seeing this person as a seashell because they _are a seashell_ I just feel (not "feel" but I explained what I meant by "feel" last night) that they are. And nothing can convince me otherwise when I decide they are. This is also something that Angelcat has used to talk about Ni, I think. Seeing the "souls" of people, which are indescribable but which I understand through unexplained and unsourced images.


But, is that a sense impression? A highly subjective association between them and some object... because of shared traits? Or because of just a non-sensical impression? Remember that horoscopes and zodiac and all that are all in the domain of SJs. They LOVE that stuff. You'd think that NJs would too, but they dismiss it and usually replace it with their own, far far far weirder ideas. I don't know if this applies to you at all... but it seems that it is Si/Ne - Si supplying the incomprehensible sense-impression and Ne/Ti expanding it in the meta / systemizing it to make it codified or vaguely coherent. 

I think to convince me of Ni, this seashell thing would have to get 100x weirder and not just chalk-up-able to fantastically-interpreted non-sensical sense-impressions. 



alittlebear said:


> (Sorry if I'm sounding direct. Again, I'm going to need some serious reprogramming if this is not Ni, but right now I do understand it as Ni and I am speaking from that point of view.)


I am also guilty of sitting on this. I never thought you were an Ni. I usually just let these things play out as they do... and I do also sometimes bandwagon, though I stand for it as it helps me incorporate other perspectives. Like I tend to say, I don't mind being wrong - this is a process and a journey. It is absurd to expect to be right at any given time. We see through a glass, darkly... and shouldn't fool ourselves or be hard on ourselves for the obvious facts of the matter. 



alittlebear said:


> Another thing (there are a few things that I would need clarification about with this [for me personally, not that anyone is obliged to explain and I do not want to be needy], but one thing
> @_emberfly_ once explained that he liked SFJs better than NFJs. (Hopefully I don't wrongly paraphrase him here.) He said that SFJs get out there and do things. That they are out in the soup kitchens helping people, out in the streets helping people, just out there in the world making a physical difference with their hands. NFJs, on the other hand, are theoretically figuring out a way to help people. Thinking of how to help people big-picture. Thinking, planning... but not out there DOING it like SFJs.


Well, I'd argue against that... though I have thought and maybe even said the same at one point or another. Again, I think this is something of a misinterpretation. This is probably more accurately made a dichotomy of intro-vs-extra-version. It really doesn't stand to reason that Si would be more engaging or outgoing than Ni. It really doesn't stand at all. 



alittlebear said:


> With that, I certainly related to the NFJs. I love working at soup kitchens, and if love helping people physically... but I often do not. I am too clumsy. I have a hard time synchronizing with others. I want to help, but usually I am just useless and cause more problems than I solve. And I hate being useless, and I hate being annoying, (and my mom never wants to take me to these places because she thinks volunteer work is stupid,) so I just don't go.


Introversion, most likely. This would be a good time to point out how fully you are relying on sensory perspectives to think through this. You are not leaning on Ni, or showing Ni whatsoever. Frankly, you never have. 



alittlebear said:


> On the other hand... I'm always thinking of how I will help people someday. I'm currently on my personally planned track to be a professor, so I can synthesize ideas that people use to bicker about now and get them to see... No. We are arguing but over the most ridiculous things. We need to come together and not be so hindered by our differences. It's such a ridiculous idea, and chances are I won't help people personally... but still, there it is. And I keep after it.


Introversion... too much Ti in the mix, I'd guess. 



alittlebear said:


> Also, I could never do what @_angelcat_ does. She runs so many things. She's involved in so many things. I mean, look even at her signature. She runs a few publications(?), at least two blogs, and I sure other things I'm not aware of. I don't think that's my strength.


 @_angelcat_ is a rare ubermensch who needs to be captured and studied. Not a fair comparison. 




alittlebear said:


> The video is ironic to me, because it reminds me of something I've discussed with @_Curiphant_ quite a bit. We've talked about how our culture is obsessed with happiness, that we go too far out of our way to be "happy". I think I have mixed feelings about it personally. I like being happy in the moment, but I blame my Fe for not letting me be too happy and recognize it. I don't know that I'm happy until I'm smiling and laughing or nodding. I tell my happiness by my physical reactions, just as I know I'm upset when I cry (largely because, lately, when I cry I find that my thoughts are under control and sometimes positive... but tears just fall from my eyes and I go "oh dear").
> 
> If it says anything about my Ne, this video annoyed me some. I thought he was going to talk about happiness and how it's overrated to live in the moment, what we should do instead... but no. I might have missed something, but it sure seemed he was just talking about how he hates living in the moment. And he went over that point. Over, and over again. (It was interesting hearing him harp on it.)


He is basically a walking Ti/Si 'loop'. I eat it up. Novel perspectives, neurotic OCD, and super abstract analysis. Love it.



alittlebear said:


> I can see what you mean about my Ti usage and not quite being an extrovert... to some extent. I still think I embody the pitfalls of inferior Ti, and that I am far too irrational and Fe-driven to have anything but inferior Ti. As for my introversion, I was actually thinking about that yesterday. If I'm an Fe-dom, I'm almost a terrible one. Yesterday I sat at a very social event and tried to just read my book until someone I felt comfortable with came along and I engaged with complete conversation with them. (Until they briefly left... and I got in two more minutes of reading my book.) I've blamed this on my social anxiety (I had GAD, which you probably gleaned from the OP), but it also seems to be something deeper. I think I was an extroverted little kid (an _Fe_ little kid) who just got weighed down by fear of others' opinions of her, but perhaps I (and we) have been misunderstanding these things.


Well, Jung said and I agree that any function that isn't your dominant is inferior.... it is just most ugly at times with the opposite of your dominant for obvious reasons. Trust me, you aren't a good example of inferior Thinking:






This is done by a Te - NTJ, presumably, about an inferior Thinker (ESFJ, presumably). Thinking that is in every way subjugated and enslaved to Feeling and an almost equally crappy (but utilized) Ne. 



alittlebear said:


> Regardless, thank you for your thoughts on my type. I was wondering when you would weigh in. Waiting for Hoopla's reaction, but until then I am satisfied that at least we can know for certain I'm an FJ.


Sure thing. Sorry to.. uh... rerail.... your thread? Ha!


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I am apart of a culture of people who are totally all in love with their high school sweethearts but I think your culture sounds agreeable.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That's not what I meant, sorry! *It did sound like that, yes. I mean I would imagine that an ISFJ would be more likely to rub her M professors the wrong way because she thinks she's saying insightful crap but really she's just regurgitating what they've heard a thousand times before.* (I know this not to be true - I read @_angelcat_'s book on symbolism in LOTR and she came up with stuff that blew my mind - but I mean) (yeah I have no defense that was stereotypical and offensive of me. I apologize. I do recognize that Ss are very insightful and anything that says otherwise is stupid... Sorry again for that offense.)


.....................................................

Accepted.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Oh no I agree. I was attempting to be humorous
> I think polygamy can be degrading unless both sexes practice but otherwise it's cool.


My friend has a polygamous family and I'm so cool with that. If that's what they want, that's what they want. Personally I do agree that it seems like it would be unhealthy to me, but if a family / group (sorry that I'm not using the right terms I don't think) mutually decided on that I think it is manageable and that would be 100% their decision.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


>


Oh dear. What did I say this time?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> @TelepathicGoose Also oh my goodness _happy birthday_, Gosling!! I'm so proud of you for surviving another year in our desolate country.


Aww, thank you. <3 

It has been hard, but worth the struggle.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> Happy Birthday @TelepathicGoose !!!


Thank you! :kitteh:


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Oh dear. What did I say this time?


oh i was just reacting to the whole highschool sweethearts thing. I mean, I know it happens a lot (my sister says a number of her friends in memphis married highschool sweethearts) but it always startles me. I'm just like...how? People change so much in their late teens/early twenties. Or at least I feel they should.

Oh well, as long as they are happy!


----------



## Immolate

arkigos said:


> But, is that a sense impression? A highly subjective association between them and some object... because of shared traits? Or because of just a non-sensical impression? Remember that horoscopes and zodiac and all that are all in the domain of SJs. They LOVE that stuff. You'd think that NJs would too, but they dismiss it and usually replace it with their own, far far far weirder ideas. I don't know if this applies to you at all... but it seems that it is Si/Ne - Si supplying the incomprehensible sense-impression and Ne/Ti expanding it in the meta / systemizing it to make it codified or vaguely coherent.
> 
> I think to convince me of Ni, this seashell thing would have to get 100x weirder and not just chalk-up-able to fantastically-interpreted non-sensical sense-impressions.


This was my impression with the seashell, red, rose, etc.

alittlebear?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@arkigos I'm not sure if I can reply in depth because I'm running short on time but... Just to clarify myself 

(Also, you might want to look at my post on how I relate to Si. It will probably further support what you are seeing.  So far the people who support me as ENFJ disagree and think they are shallow connections, but you will disagree.) 

- I actually don't like fairy tales. We touched on this last night (you weren't here, sorry, but it was discussed). I have a natural aversion to fairy tales. I'm trying to appreciate them more now, because I am determined to appreciate things I don't for the sake of it, but naturally they are weird to me. I can get my quotes explaining this, but no time now. 

- I also don't think my symbolism is a sense impression. I've never related to sense impressions either. That's another thing I will probably require clarification about. 

Other than that, I don't know much what to say. Even though I might not sound like it, I do appreciate your honesty here. Thank you for sharing it, especially since you did politely hold it in for so long. (Also, how _dare_ you rerail my thread )

Edit: oh, except I also agree that @angelcat is wonderful. I don't think she deserves to be studied - let her roam free - but she is certainly wonderful and a rare person (regardless her SFJ 6 status  )


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> oh i was just reacting to the whole highschool sweethearts thing. I mean, I know it happens a lot (my sister says a number of her friends in memphis married highschool sweethearts) but it always startles me. I'm just like...how? People change so much in their late teens/early twenties. Or at least I feel they should.
> 
> Oh well, as long as they are happy!


Basically my entire generation within my mother's family has married their high school sweethearts. It's something that makes me feel quite isolated from them, honestly. (One of many things, unfortunately.)


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Happy birthday, Goosey~!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also you're still a young goose


This is my fate V









(p.s. I'm 16 now)


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> This is my fate V
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(p.s. I'm 16 now)*


Beautiful cake~

Also, yes, 16 is young


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Basically my entire generation within my mother's family has married their high school sweethearts. It's something that makes me feel quite isolated from them, honestly. (One of many things, unfortunately.)


Eek, marrying your high school sweetheart may be dangerous. You may drift apart when you're older.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Beautiful cake~
> 
> Also, yes, 16 is young


It is, yes. But older than 15, thankfully.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Eek, marrying your high school sweetheart may be dangerous. You may drift apart when you're older.


You're preaching to the wrong person. I can't control their actions, unfortunately.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Eek, marrying your high school sweetheart may be dangerous. You may drift apart when you're older.


I am married to the game. Just kidding. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat. But seriously, my Grandma said I ain't a kid person herself. Or even an animal person haha. I think she be right. Imagine me help look after two kids and a dog...


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> You're preaching to the wrong person. I can't control their actions, unfortunately.


Well, there's not much you can do. 

Have you explained this to your parents, though?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, there's not much you can do.
> 
> Have you explained this to your parents, though?


You... It's hard to explain, but that's not how my family works. I am powerless and voiceless. As are my mother and father. My family... it just doesn't work like that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also hey - I apologize that I am maybe missing some posts right not. The chat is going fast tonight, but there's also (for once) some actually relevant stuff going on with my typing process. If you have a post regarding my typing that I have missed please quote it and tag me if you think it is important, but otherwise please just excuse my lack of thanks and irrelevant responses.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> You... It's hard to explain, but that's not how my family works. I am powerless and voiceless. As are my mother and father. My family... it just doesn't work like that.


Fascinating.

My family is the exact opposite. We're all hot-headed extroverts who yell at each other constantly...I would love to have some peace and quiet sometimes...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also fun fact: when I did the worksheet before receiving my first MBTI results, I self typed as ISFJ. Who woulda known.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Fascinating.
> 
> My family is the exact opposite. We're all hot-headed extroverts who yell at each other constantly...I would love to have some peace and quiet sometimes...


Well... We're that too. Constantly squabbling. Constantly. So much drama. So much judgment. Always up in everyone's business. But I am an ineffective FJ and absolutely incapable of making a mark on any of them emotionally. Or being taken seriously by them. I am just a little tiny positive energy person who is only allowed in their presence because we share a family tree.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NGL I haven't looked into many ISFJ descriptions but 


> ISFJs live in a world that is concrete and kind. They are truly warm and kind-hearted, and want to believe the best of people. They value harmony and cooperation, and are likely to be very sensitive to other people's feelings. People value the ISFJ for their consideration and awareness, and their ability to bring out the best in others by their firm desire to believe the best.


I think even ENFJ-defending @Curiphant can agree this describes me pretty accurately. (Maybe not as much as "charismatic cult leader" does to her, but...) This beginning to the ISFJ description especially has always resonated with me. (I ignored it though  )


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Well... We're that too. Constantly squabbling. Constantly. So much drama. So much judgment. Always up in everyone's business. But I am an ineffective FJ and absolutely incapable of making a mark on any of them emotionally. Or being taken seriously by them. I am just a little tiny positive energy person who is only allowed in their presence because we share a family tree.


I'm sorry, that doesn't sound too pleasant.

I'm the only open minded one in my family, I always try to solve our problems. But yet, they never listen to me. Caught up too much in the heat of the moment to consider other options, sadly.

I'm sorry for you, however. I wish I could give you a hug.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@alittlebear

To be fair, all FJs have a similar nature and overall desire.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I actually have been meaning to ask @Oswin about what she (and others - @hoopla and @arkigos have mentioned similar things) means about "sensory descriptions". It's hard for me to understand... She used the term in the EA topic and it reminded me again how confusing that is to me. How is what EA writes a sensory thing?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> I'm sorry, that doesn't sound too pleasant.
> 
> I'm the only open minded one in my family, I always try to solve our problems. But yet, they never listen to me. Caught up too much in the heat of the moment to consider other options, sadly.
> 
> I'm sorry for you, however. I wish I could give you a hug.


No! Please don't feel sorry for me. I love my family, especially my extended family. I don't think they care too much for me, but... That's understandable. I love them regardless, and I love being apart of them. We aren't perfect, but no family is. 

I hope your family is one you fit into better. I'm sorry you have to be the only open-minded one though. That just be hard, especially for an Ne-dom.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> To be fair, all FJs have a similar nature and overall desire.


That is true... but my overarching desire to see the world as a good place - even when my experiences have proved to me that the world is indeed a very bad place - could be Si. It seems like an Si/Ne desire.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> No! Please don't feel sorry for me. I love my family, especially my extended family. I don't think they care too much for me, but... That's understandable. I love them regardless, and I love being apart of them. We aren't perfect, but no family is.
> 
> I hope your family is one you fit into better. I'm sorry you have to be the only open-minded one though. That just be hard, especially for an Ne-dom.


Ah, but I still do. I'm glad that you still love them, however. I couldn't imagine as to why they don't like you, however. You're so kindhearted and insightful.

It is, and at times it is rather frustrating. My father- an ENTJ- was open minded. However, as he got older he began to believe that his Ni musings were the only right way to do things, and at times he is incapable of changing his perceptions of reality. My ESFJ mother just has a bit of trouble understanding things from my point of view. I love them both dearly, however. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't be doing so well in school and life in general as I have been.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

> ISFJs learn best by doing, rather than by reading about something in a book, or applying theory. For this reason, they are not likely to be found in fields which require a lot of conceptual analysis or theory. They value practical application. Traditional methods of higher education, which require a lot of theorizing and abstraction, are likely to be a chore for the ISFJ. The ISFJ learns a task best by being shown its practical application. Once the task is learned, and its practical importance is understood, the ISFJ will faithfully and tirelessly carry through the task to completion. The ISFJ is extremely dependable.


This is probably the most opposite thing of me, but that's probably because I was raised a Gifted child and the Personality Page is one of the most awfully stereotypical sources out there.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> That is true... but my overarching desire to see the world as a good place - even when my experiences have proved to me that the world is indeed a very bad place - could be Si. It seems like an Si/Ne desire.


Hmm,

I personally believe that is _not _Si. Si would be like "the world isn't like that, I have witnessed in the past that it is not that way, so I must not think it is." My ESFJ mother always says to me: "Melanie, I know you want the world to be this way, but it just isn't. You need to accept things for how they are." 

xNFJs are very idealistic, just maybe in a different way than xNFPs are. In general, NFs are idealists. xSFJs and S types in general are realists and practical.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Ah, but I still do. I'm glad that you still love them, however. I couldn't imagine as to why they don't like you, however. You're so kindhearted and insightful.
> 
> It is, and at times it is rather frustrating. My father- an ENTJ- was open minded. However, as he got older he began to believe that his Ni musings were the only right way to do things, and at times he is incapable of changing his perceptions of reality. My ESFJ mother just has a bit of trouble understanding things from my point of view. I love them both dearly, however. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't be doing so well in school and life in general as I have been.


Oh, no... They do like me... They just find me annoying. Their lives have been so much more tumultuous. My mom is honestly the only stable mother in her family, and I think they look down on me because of that. They don't realize that I'm traumatized and that I've had my own share of crap... because to them, I still don't have life half as hard as they do. And honestly, they're probably right. But... They are kind to me, and they do find me adorable, but they don't exactly respect me or view me as a social equal. 

An ENTJ and an ESFJ for parents? That's a bit of an unlikely combination. I'm sorry they don't see your view as much. As probably the only Fs in her family, I can quite understand.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Hmm,
> 
> I personally believe that is _not _Si. Si would be like "the world isn't like that, I have witnessed in the past that it is not that way, so I must not think it is." My ESFJ mother always says to me: "Melanie, I know you want the world to be this way, but it just isn't. You need to accept things for how they are."
> 
> xNFJs are very idealistic, just maybe in a different way than xNFPs are. In general, NFs are idealists. xSFJs and S types in general are realists and practical.


I'm going to have to tag @angelcat in this for fact checking. (Hopefully she's not too bogged down. I think I've tagged her in a bunch of stuff tonight, and of course in know she always has a dozen other things to be doing.)


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Oh, no... They do like me... They just find me annoying. Their lives have been so much more tumultuous. My mom is honestly the only stable mother in her family, and I think they look down on me because of that. They don't realize that I'm traumatized and that I've had my own share of crap... because to them, I still don't have life half as hard as they do. And honestly, they're probably right. But... They are kind to me, and they do find me adorable, but they don't exactly respect me or view me as a social equal.
> 
> An ENTJ and an ESFJ for parents? That's a bit of an unlikely combination. I'm sorry they don't see your view as much. As probably the only Fs in her family, I can quite understand.


Ah, I see. I hope they begin to respect you more in the future, however.

It is, and sometimes I'm baffled by it. Their method of communication is rather different. I think my father understands my mother's way of thinking, and uses this to his advantage at times, but my mother doesn't seem to understand my father and gets hurt easily. They get into arguments a lot due to this. However, when they are in a good mood, they're wonderful together. Although, that's because my mother will happily listen to my father ramble for hours. I'm still baffled at how they've been working out for the most part.

Oh, and I'm the only NP in my entire family- including extended family. NPs aren't even the rarest types (that would be the NJs), however for some odd reason they seem to be lacking in my family and school environments. It makes it difficult, because no one understands me. I've gotten used to the mentality, however.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay... but as an ISFJ I could share Cinderella's type _and_ have nothing to do with Daenerys' dominant function (Sorry @arkigos but it's me or her as an ISFJ I refuse to accept her as anything like me) 










And. Honestly that's a pretty good option. 

(I'm only a little but serious here? There's still a ton of characters who are ISFJ I cannot stand or relate to? Like Sam from LOTR, and Cady from Mean Girls? I was actually so relieved when Hoopla explained that Cady was ISFJ because I went, "oh, so _that's_ why I'm nothing like her.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Ah, I see. I hope they begin to respect you more in the future, however.
> 
> It is, and sometimes I'm baffled by it. Their method of communication is rather different. I think my father understands my mother's way of thinking, and uses this to his advantage at times, but my mother doesn't seem to understand my father and gets hurt easily. They get into arguments a lot due to this. However, when they are in a good mood, they're wonderful together. Although, that's because my mother will happily listen to my father ramble for hours. I'm still baffled at how they've been working out for the most part.
> 
> Oh, and I'm the only NP in my entire family- including extended family. NPs aren't even the rarest types (that would be the NJs), however for some odd reason they seem to be lacking in my family and school environments. It makes it difficult, because no one understands me. I've gotten used to the mentality, however.


I used to think I was the only NFJ in my family. But the more you know.  

I got that with being an Fe-dom too. Which was so weird to me - Fe-doms are one of the most common types for girls - but that's what I felt. Everyone was just so... not Fe, it seemed. To me, if they were using any of the Fe I was they would be unable to be kind or rude or unfriendly to anyone, and... There are very few people like that in this world (and a lot of people who are like that aren't even Fe users, or even Fs). 

For me, though, it wasn't that they weren't FJs. It was just that my idea of FJs was false. 

I'm glad your parents' dynamic works out well.  I'm of the belief that any type pairing can work out, as long as they have that something there.


----------



## 68097

To study me, you'd have to catch me first. HAH!

@alittlebear: I was all for you being an ISFJ until you dissed Sam Gamgee. Now, you are not allowed. =P

Seriously, though... if you were an ISFJ, that would be awesome, because we need all the cool, not-anything-like-the-stereotype ISFJs we can get. Still, if you ARE, you float in the realm of Ne a lot ... like me, but with a different mythology driving you. 

The (new) live-action Cinderella is also an ISFJ. And that's the first character I've ever seen where she was ... SO MUCH like me._ So much_. For the first time in my life, I didn't hate the thought of being one. (Okay, the second time in my life...)



TelepathicGoose said:


> Hmm,
> 
> I personally believe that is _not _Si. Si would be like "the world isn't like that, I have witnessed in the past that it is not that way, so I must not think it is." My ESFJ mother always says to me: "Melanie, I know you want the world to be this way, but it just isn't. You need to accept things for how they are."
> 
> xNFJs are very idealistic, just maybe in a different way than xNFPs are. In general, NFs are idealists. xSFJs and S types in general are realists and practical.


I think it CAN be Si, because Ne is very much a function that desires to see things transformed into a BETTER state. Like, I've mentioned before how things are always superior in my head. I have this sneaking suspicion that were I to go visit the Tower of London, I'd be disappointed -- because it would be cramped, and small, and unimpressive, and the looming, gloomy, depressing and thoroughly awesome Tower I have inside my imagination is far superior. 

That being said, Ne/Si is more idealistic in this regard than Si/Ne. Ne/Si is my friend being wildly unrealistic about reality, and me saying, "Um, that's not even remotely feasible." So, yes, to some degree, Si-doms are realists. 

Though, ISFJs can be just as idealistic. Like, one says, "I'm going to buy a house in the suburbs soon."

And I turn around and ask, "With what?"


----------



## Immolate

Talk to us, @hoopla.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> I used to think I was the only NFJ in my family. But the more you know.
> 
> I got that with being an Fe-dom too. Which was so weird to me - Fe-doms are one of the most common types for girls - but that's what I felt. Everyone was just so... not Fe, it seemed. To me, if they were using any of the Fe I was they would be unable to be kind or rude or unfriendly to anyone, and... There are very few people like that in this world (and a lot of people who are like that aren't even Fe users, or even Fs).
> 
> For me, though, it wasn't that they weren't FJs. It was just that my idea of FJs was false.
> 
> I'm glad your parents' dynamic works out well.  I'm of the belief that any type pairing can work out, as long as they have that something there.


I still believe you're an NFJ, who wants to be an SFJ and is questioning herself due to this.

Fe doms are common for girls, although I've noticed most of the girls at my school are ESFPs. Lots of ESFJs, too, but not as many. 
Ah, so you were overrun by thinkers? While thinkers are wonderful, it must not be fun to have a lack of people who can give you that emotional support and caring. Hopefully you have somebody, however.

Ah, I see. I had this problem as well. I originally typed myself as an INFJ under the belief that only FJs were empathetic, and that FPs were self-centered. When I actually went into more depth I realized that Fi can be very empathetic s well- it just works a bit differently. Misconceptions are pretty common with MBTI in general...maybe it should be called MBTI for "Misconception Breeding Theorists Ignite!"

Very true. As long as the pair understands each other's strengths and weaknesses, it can work out wonderfully.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> To study me, you'd have to catch me first. HAH!
> @alittlebear: I was all for you being an ISFJ until you dissed Sam Gamgee. Now, you are not allowed. =P
> 
> Seriously, though... if you were an ISFJ, that would be awesome, because we need all the cool, not-anything-like-the-stereotype ISFJs we can get. Still, if you ARE, you float in the realm of Ne a lot ... like me, but with a different mythology driving you.
> 
> The (new) live-action Cinderella is also an ISFJ. And that's the first character I've ever seen where she was ... SO MUCH like me._ So much_. For the first time in my life, I didn't hate the thought of being one. (Okay, the second time in my life...)


Ah, come on angelcat. I was expecting an opinion after all that time waiting to respond.  

I agree though. At least about there needing to be more ISFJs out there who don't meet the stereotype. 

I just can't get over how Sam treats Gollum. Sigh. So unkind  But into fit the "faithful friend" archetype too frequently. 

I will say... while I did relate a bit to the new Cinderella - and she is my ultimate favorite princess - I didn't relate at the end where she was dancing around in the attic thinking about how her happy memories were enough to preserve her. (That's probably a stereotypical manifestation of Si, though, paired with my own adversion to thinking about the past due to trauma.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat your Tower of London example is another thing I can't relate to. I would rather go there and visit it - every time. That in itself could be an S thing, though.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

arkigos said:


> I've found that Ni types are profoundly disinterested, to the point of blindness and antagonism, with fairy tales or fantasy at all. They don't seem to like it. I have not deeply investigated why. But, don't mistake this for a rational dislike... as you might have... but a fundamental perceptual one. They are nothing to them. Not on the table, not on the radar. You ask Yoko Ono, or Tori Amos, or whomever, about fairy tales she stares blankly at you... like, "why are we talking about nothing?" Same with INTJ. No interest... at least so far as I have observed.


I am totally going to challenge you here.

Article is super long, so I'll splice it up into excerpts:

Tori Amos' Secret Garden of Faeries | Rolling Stone



> Amos reads avidly about arcane imaginary worlds, taking eminent mythographer Joseph Campbell as her lens and prism. In his 1949 book, The Hero With a Thousand Faces, Campbell ties together the world's mythologies into a "monomyth," tracing each story back to a universal archetype. The common theme among all myths, the author posited, was a hero taking on an adventure, then suffering in an unknown land before returning home, triumphant and enlightened. By the standards of The Hero With a Thousand Faces – which, incidentally, inspired Star Wars – Tori Amos own life has all the makings of a pretty decent myth.





> She's part of a culture that's unloved by media trend suckers. This is the widespread fin de siècle tendency to obsessively immerse oneself in complex myth worlds, from Myst and Dungeons and Dragons to Star Wars and Star Trek.





> "I want to torture the people who don't understand the world of faeries," fumes Amos with almost church-lady righteousness. "You'll get some reporter from Vogue who doesn't know what she's talking about, who paints me as some insipid Tinker Bell character – well, Tinker Bell ain't up my Strasse, baby. I'm not some shivering waif in the forest. Sometimes I want to grab these bitches by the hair and take them to the world of faerie and say, 'Would you repeat that?'


Faerie lore in all it's glory (image is miniscule; click on it):









She constantly alludes to myths in her speech, and loves mythology of all kinds. Her album "American Doll Posse" is actually a concept album about greek mythology. 

To wrap this up:






Of course, there's the total possibility she has no interest in fairytales at all, and the allusion and reference to fairytales is an intangible metaphor or symbol that is entirely removed from the actuality of fairytales. But she loves fantasy I think... and mythology at the very least.

I am particular about fantasy. Things like Lord of the Rings bore me. I cannot get into it at all. Also mythology, dragons, fairies, all of that. Though I do love history and dystopian worlds, and you could argue that as a form of fantasy. I do like fairy tales, admittedly.  The more sarcastic or sadistic, the better.



arkigos said:


> But, is that a sense impression? A highly subjective association between them and some object... because of shared traits? Or because of just a non-sensical impression? Remember that horoscopes and zodiac and all that are all in the domain of SJs. They LOVE that stuff. You'd think that NJs would too, but they dismiss it and usually replace it with their own, far far far weirder ideas. I don't know if this applies to you at all... but it seems that it is Si/Ne - Si supplying the incomprehensible sense-impression and Ne/Ti expanding it in the meta / systemizing it to make it codified or vaguely coherent.
> 
> I think to convince me of Ni, this seashell thing would have to get 100x weirder and not just chalk-up-able to fantastically-interpreted non-sensical sense-impressions.


I think you have a good point here. I wondered if that was possibly not Ni either, but I ran with it because I do not relate to it (though I have, indefinitely, played around with assigning my thoughts to colors in a similar manner, I suppose). Reducing people to symbols is too simplistic of a definition for Ni imo. I think anyone could do that actually. It just depends on the reason behind it. Personally it was the mentions of naivety, lack of interest in the psyche or the soul or auras (feel free to disagree, but I consider that an Ni hallmark) and the love of derails that made me consider xSFJ, as well as not really relating to the xNFJs I showed (though that didn't put Ni-Se out of the ballpark; I can't relate to all SFJs myself, whereas some I can). ISFJ would explain why she's not super Ne heavy.



arkigos said:


> angelcat is a rare ubermensch who needs to be captured and studied. Not a fair comparison.


I genuinely believe there is a real argument for Fe dom. I think she could go either way, but it would not surprise me at all.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> I still believe you're an NFJ, who wants to be an SFJ and is questioning herself due to this.
> 
> Fe doms are common for girls, although I've noticed most of the girls at my school are ESFPs. Lots of ESFJs, too, but not as many.
> Ah, so you were overrun by thinkers? While thinkers are wonderful, it must not be fun to have a lack of people who can give you that emotional support and caring. Hopefully you have somebody, however.
> 
> Ah, I see. I had this problem as well. I originally typed myself as an INFJ under the belief that only FJs were empathetic, and that FPs were self-centered. When I actually went into more depth I realized that Fi can be very empathetic s well- it just works a bit differently. Misconceptions are pretty common with MBTI in general...maybe it should be called MBTI for "Misconception Breeding Theorists Ignite!"
> 
> Very true. As long as the pair understands each other's strengths and weaknesses, it can work out wonderfully.


Telly. I think a lot of us want to believe we're NFJs. Because, well, you know the nice stereotypes about NFJs. I'm not excluded from that. I'm trying to find the Si in me because chances are I'm using Si and not Ni... and I do want to know the truth about myself.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat is basically Margaery Tyrell so I can see ESFJ.  (was going to add more but dont want to border on unsolicited typing advice, no matter how colloquial this all is.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

*Someone is going to have to explain this sensory archetype thing to me* please @hoopla @Oswin @akigos @angelcat


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Telly. I think a lot of us want to believe we're NFJs. Because, well, you know the nice stereotypes about NFJs. I'm not excluded from that. I'm trying to find the Si in me because chances are I'm using Si and not Ni... and I do want to know the truth about myself.


I see.

Well what you described the other day seemed to me to be Ni, but I may be wrong.

There must be some NFJs out there, somewhere...somewhere.

Alright, alright, I see.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

I need to go to sleep now, so farewell to you all. I will return in the morn'
@alittlebear @shinynotshiny @Oswin @angelcat @hoopla


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> I need to go to sleep now, so farewell to you all. I will return in the morn'
> @alittlebear @shinynotshiny @Oswin @angelcat @hoopla


Now would be a good time for me to exit as well. I really do have to be going. Good night, everyone! Thank you for helping me on this path to self discovery, and forgive me if I have pushed against it too much. I might not be showing it, but trust me I am grateful.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

TelepathicGoose said:


> I see.
> 
> Well what you described the other day seemed to me to be Ni, but I may be wrong.
> 
> There must be some NFJs out there, somewhere...somewhere.
> 
> Alright, alright, I see.


I have long suspected @NobleRaven is an xNFJ (and I lean towards Ni dom). Crazy theory.
@FearAndTrembling I can buy as an INFJ, though I've played with ISTP.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> I have long suspected @NobleRaven is an xNFJ (and I lean towards Ni dom). Crazy theory.


_Same. _


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> *Someone is going to have to explain this sensory archetype thing to me* please @hoopla @Oswin @akigos @angelcat


(Still catching up but can you explain more what you mean?)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> (Still catching up but can you explain more what you mean?)


I keep saying I will leave. But you all know I lie. 

It's hard to explain? Like you said EA used a lot of sensory details in her songs, and that confuses me. What makes something sensory and not intuitive or vice versa?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I keep saying I will leave. But you all know I lie.
> 
> It's hard to explain? Like you said EA used a lot of sensory details in her songs, and that confuses me. What makes something sensory and not intuitive or vice versa?


Ok, but there's a possibility I'm just Fe-projecting and not taking the songs for what they really are.
I suppose I just meant that she describes sensory things and creates the atmosphere vs ...abstracting? I don't know. Mm..


> The wheels are turning
> Broken machinery
> It grinds below us
> And all around I see
> The crooked ceiling
> The old familiar halls
> The dirty paper
> That’s covering the walls
> The shattered staircase
> The bed I’m bleeding in


Ha, that's the only thing I can think of. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe she doesn't use them that often. 
When I said sensory details I think I literally just meant, sensory details)) Sorry)

For the record, I still mostly think you're ENFJ, NFJ at least, but I'm interested to see where this conversation goes


----------



## Dangerose

But like, the seashell thing...I don't do that, I have no idea what you mean by that
...if at some point (tomorrow for instance) you can explain further what it is, maybe it'll be more clear whether it's Si or Ni?


----------



## Psychopomp

hoopla said:


> I am totally going to challenge you here.
> 
> Article is super long, so I'll splice it up into excerpts:
> 
> Tori Amos' Secret Garden of Faeries | Rolling Stone
> 
> 
> Faerie lore in all it's glory (image is miniscule; click on it):
> 
> View attachment 329106
> 
> 
> She constantly alludes to myths in her speech, and loves mythology of all kinds. Her album "American Doll Posse" is actually a concept album about greek mythology.
> 
> To wrap this up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, there's the total possibility she has no interest in fairytales at all, and the allusion and reference to fairytales is an intangible metaphor or symbol that is entirely removed from the actuality of fairytales. But she loves fantasy I think... and mythology at the very least.
> 
> I am particular about fantasy. Things like Lord of the Rings bore me. I cannot get into it at all. Also mythology, dragons, fairies, all of that. Though I do love history and dystopian worlds, and you could argue that as a form of fantasy. I do like fairy tales, admittedly.  The more sarcastic or sadistic, the better.


I also don't particularly care for fairy tales.. unless they are insane or obscure. So hipster.

Well, you pretty much epically contradicted what I said.. so, yeah. Oops. In my defense, it was primarily anecdotal (thorough, but anecdotal and thus terribly limited), and I feel somewhat supported by Jung, and my error was in inferring from it and trying to extend it. I will, though, invoke the "if they do, it will be '100x weirder'" clause. 
@_alittlebear_ - hating on Cinderella might cause something of a false dichotomy. Would you, for example, better identify with a fictional INFJ? or would you reject both of them? 

Do you see yourself more in real SFJs or real NFJs? Are you more in tune with.. uh... Oprah or MLK? Haha! Those are the only examples I could think of... and they are both ExFJ. 

Are you more Yoko Ono or Mother Teresa? HA! Yes, that's it. That's how you'll find your type. What manner of nut-job and/or savior are you?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay, going to bed, but this is what I'm thinking now 

If someone who knows the functions in and out like @arkigos says there's not a trace of Ni in me... Chances are, he's right. 

Especially given that @hoopla and @angelcat who also know a lot about functions and used to see me as ENFJ are now considering ISFJ as well and can see Si things in me...

I'm thinking I'm ISFJ. It makes a lot of sense. I'm too soft to be ENFJ. I am not that outspoken, direct, and I'll hurt myself trying to be. 

I still would like clarification about how what I do is not Ni - is my seeing "souls" perhaps a combo of Fe/Ne, with a dash of my misunderstanding Si and stereotyping S users? - but I am at this time thinking that I've got to be ISFJ. 

Given that I probably have some inferior Ne, I'm going to be fickle about this. And of course it's hard to let go of that meaningful little S. But truth is truth. 

I'll be back mostly later tomorrow, but please know that you are free to chat (about cognitive functions and how your various opinions on things reflect differences, always on topic with MBTI, yes?) on this topic. Please do not hold back just because I'm not here. Just because I'm not liking your every post does not mean I am miffed with you. It usually just means I'm unable to keep umpire the conversation or that I'm currently offline 

Also, of course, please feel free to add comments regarding my type. I would most appreciate it if those comments were tagged for me to easily access tomorrow, but quotes are acceptable as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@arkigos I will reply! Sorry, I mean I'm sure you can see that I am an indecisive person. 

I'm confused a little... Where did I say I hated Cinderella? I love Cinderella.  Oh, wait, you meant Dany, didn't you? (She absolutely sucks.) 

I don't relate to many fictional INFJs, no. It's generally hard for me to relate to fictional characters, though... I have a hard time knowing how I really am, especially since I am so much more timid and childlike than I like to believe myself to be. 

I can say that I just went through @angelcat's c:ISFJ tag and... While I don't know if I relate to these characters yet, since I don't know them very well (I only know Hector in the posts I've gotten to so far), I do certainly admire them. They have the self possession I would love to have. 

As for fictional INFJs... I relate a lot to Hester Prynne, who is typed as INFJ typically. I do not relate much at all to Melisandre or Varys, (they're so cold and heartless) though, if that tells you something. I do relate a lot to Margaery though (she's like a dream me), and I relate to Sansa more than I should (for trauma reasons...). 

Regarding your other question... I don't relate to Oprah much at all, but I... I mean as a whiter wrong girl it is extremely disrespectful to ever see myself as like Martin Luther King Jr., but I certainly relate to him more than Oprah. As someone who is very tied to fighting social injustice , I admire MLK greatly. (Again, inapropriate for me as a white girl... but it's true.) 

Not that I am like MLK. I _am_ an excellent speech writer, orator, and an essay writer in general (you wouldn't believe it from my posts here but my teachers tell me it's true), but... I mean I do have ideas like MLK, I completely agree with his vision and in all walks of life, not just race issues, but I do not have his strength. I wish I did. Maybe someday. But not now, sadly. 

who is Yoko Ono? I don't think I relate to Mother Theresa too much... which is sad to me, because I am a Catholic and (before I learned about the abuse that Mother Theresa ell evenly participated in...) during my childhood I greatly admired Mother Theresa. But again, I do not have her strength or her altruism. Goodness, I want it. How we are taught as Baby Catholics that Mother Theresa stood before all sorts of international diplomats and stood up for human rights. I would _love_ to be that. But alas, I could never see myself in that position. I might dream about helping orphans, but in reality I'm this little girl who can hardly help herself (it seems). (Then again I'm a 2 so of course I'm going to say that [about not being able to help myself])


----------



## Deadly Decorum

arkigos said:


> I also don't particularly care for fairy tales.. unless they are insane or obscure. So hipster.


Is it impossible for NPs to *not* be hipsters? Thinking so. 



arkigos said:


> Well, you pretty much epically contradicted what I said.. so, yeah. Oops. In my defense, it was primarily anecdotal (thorough, but anecdotal and thus terribly limited), and I feel somewhat supported by Jung, and my error was in inferring from it and trying to extend it. I will, though, invoke the "if they do, it will be '100x weirder'" clause.


Don't you hate Si sometimes? 

I actually believe Ni is drawn to the fantasy in some way... I have an internet INFJ friend (I could PM you her questionnaire if you want) and she loves dungeons and dragons, history and the elder scrolls. The difference is well... it's mystical. Very very mystical. It's not escapism, or trying to change the world in their own way or see it in a new light. I don't really know what it is. I cannot speak for Ni, nor do I know what goes on in their crazy heads.

Of course there are probably some INFJs who dread the stuff.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin I will try to explain about the seashell thing tomorrow! (Although it is hard for me to explain, so it might take some thought.) I will ponder what you said about sensory stuff.


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear jumping off the mother theresa thing, I thought I'd mention that your bit about imagining yourself in stories as a servant made me think of Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (The Little Flower)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom Thank you for that connection! I'm not familiar with her, but from what I read she seems very kind Saint Therese, "The Little Flower" | Society of the Little Flower - US

My favorite saint has always been Maria Goretti, I think. I mean, Mary is my absolute favorite, but it loved how Maria Goretti went through something so terrible simply for trying to live her life right by God... and she just...nits so sad to me. But I love her forgiveness. I would point to her as an example when I was younger, when there would be stories about serial killers or school shooters and society would turn against them I would stubbornly rant to my family about how we should be more like Maria Goretti, how we should forgive those who make transgressions against our society, that that was the Catholic way. If she could forgive a man for that, we could forgive anyone for that. (As it turns out, when I had transgressions I could not find my own strength to forgive, especially not immediately... but I suppose that's why they're saints and why we need to aspire to be like them.) 

That's a bit of a babble, but thank you for your words. I do appreciate them, they are very kind and thoughtful


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @arkigos Regarding your other question... I don't relate to Oprah much at all, but I... I mean as a whiter wrong girl it is extremely disrespectful to ever see myself as like Martin Luther King Jr., but I certainly relate to him more than Oprah. As someone who is very tied to fighting social injustice , I admire MLK greatly. (Again, inapropriate for me as a white girl... but it's true.)


Sorry, but I think your politically correctness is way out of proportion? I do believe that people of different races are allowed to relate to and admire people of different races? 
Sorry, not related to type, just seems a little...too much)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

(Also being ISFJ would mean I would share _no functions with Voldemort_ and that's sad, but... It would explain why I have been compared to both Neville and Luna, why my friends have called me a "soft and sweet version of Shelden Cooper," and why... Alright that's it, but it suppose the things that make sense about ISFJ outweigh me not sharing Voldemort's functions even though he is my buddy and I relate to the social position he enjoys (to some extent) 

This also ruins my lovely relation to Lily. Which is sad. I love her. But if it wasn't true it wasn't true, and it was always more childish and squeaky than dear Lily Evans ever was.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Sorry, but I think your politically correctness is way out of proportion? I do believe that people of different races are allowed to relate to and admire people of different races?
> Sorry, not related to type, just seems a little...too much)


I'm not really trying to be politically correct... in the past I would have agreed with you, but now... I mean, it's true. I am a human like MLK, and I believe in civil rights like MLK, but I cannot pretend to understand his struggles and I think that does make it hard for me to claim likeness to him, at least for me. (It's the same with my reading Maya Angelou's autobiography. I relate to it dearly, and she reminds me a lot of myself honestly, but I cannot claim that I know anything of her struggles so it feels... wrong of me to pretend I can.) I'm not trying to be overly politically correct to impress anyone - this isn't Tumblr - but I do honestly feel that it is inappropriate of me personally to claim I am like them when... I'm not. Yeah, honestly it is social justice influenced but that's in my head now and I can't get it out. It's not that I'm trying to be politically correct though, ultimately... It's just honestly how I feel about it. (I apologize if this is offensive.)


----------



## Psychopomp

alittlebear said:


> @_arkigos_ I will reply! Sorry, I mean I'm sure you can see that I am an indecisive person.
> 
> I'm confused a little... Where did I say I hated Cinderella? I love Cinderella.  Oh, wait, you meant Dany, didn't you? (She absolutely sucks.)
> 
> I don't relate to many fictional INFJs, no. It's generally hard for me to relate to fictional characters, though... I have a hard time knowing how I really am, especially since I am so much more timid and childlike than I like to believe myself to be.
> 
> I can say that I just went through @_angelcat_'s c:ISFJ tag and... While I don't know if I relate to these characters yet, since I don't know them very well (I only know Hector in the posts I've gotten to so far), I do certainly admire them. They have the self possession I would love to have.
> 
> As for fictional INFJs... I relate a lot to Hester Prynne, who is typed as INFJ typically. I do not relate much at all to Melisandre or Varys, (they're so cold and heartless) though, if that tells you something. I do relate a lot to Margaery though (she's like a dream me), and I relate to Sansa more than I should (for trauma reasons...).
> 
> Regarding your other question... I don't relate to Oprah much at all, but I... I mean as a whiter wrong girl it is extremely disrespectful to ever see myself as like Martin Luther King Jr., but I certainly relate to him more than Oprah. As someone who is very tied to fighting social injustice , I admire MLK greatly. (Again, inapropriate for me as a white girl... but it's true.)
> 
> Not that I am like MLK. I _am_ an excellent speech writer, orator, and an essay writer in general (you wouldn't believe it from my posts here but my teachers tell me it's true), but... I mean I do have ideas like MLK, I completely agree with his vision and in all walks of life, not just race issues, but I do not have his strength. I wish I did. Maybe someday. But not now, sadly.
> 
> who is Yoko Ono? I don't think I relate to Mother Theresa too much... which is sad to me, because I am a Catholic and (before I learned about the abuse that Mother Theresa ell evenly participated in...) during my childhood I greatly admired Mother Theresa. But again, I do not have her strength or her altruism. Goodness, I want it. How we are taught as Baby Catholics that Mother Theresa stood before all sorts of international diplomats and stood up for human rights. I would _love_ to be that. But alas, I could never see myself in that position. I might dream about helping orphans, but in reality I'm this little girl who can hardly help herself (it seems). (Then again I'm a 2 so of course I'm going to say that [about not being able to help myself])


You think about this in such a non-thinking, value-based, Fe sort of way. 

I don't know what would be INFJ about Hester Prynne... and how is Varys heartless? That guy is bleeding compassion all over the place. He is ruled by it. 

I type Margaery an ESFJ, as you may know... and Sansa ISFJ (I think). 

I think it quite peculiar that being a white girl somehow makes a correlation to MLK inappropriate. I think thinking it is inappropriate is a bit inappropriate.... haha. 

WHO IS YOKO ONO!? For real? Like... for real for real? I don't know what to say. You've wounded me. She is a great example of INFJ in real life is what she is. Her and John Lennon are great to observe because he is an Ne-dom and she is an Ni-dom. 



hoopla said:


> Is it impossible for NPs to *not* be hipsters? Thinking so.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you hate Si sometimes?
> 
> I actually believe Ni is drawn to the fantasy in some way... I have an internet INFJ friend (I could PM you her questionnaire if you want) and she loves dungeons and dragons, history and the elder scrolls. The difference is well... it's mystical. Very very mystical. It's not escapism, or trying to change the world in their own way or see it in a new light. I don't really know what it is. I cannot speak for Ni, nor do I know what goes on in their crazy heads.
> 
> Of course there are probably some INFJs who dread the stuff.


I was in Seattle recently and went into this eclectic vintage store... that was out of this world good even for Seattle.. and it was like heaven on earth. As we are prancing around like children, I suddenly stop and grab my wife.. "We have to leave, NOW!" and she says, "why!?" and I say, "..don't you see what is happening here? How long have we fought to stay pure in the face of this evil? Can't you see it has us in its pernicious grip?! We have to go." and she laughs, "you are wearing penny loafers, horn-rimmed glasses, and an officers dress shirt from the army surplus store. Oh, god, you don't even know what you are!" (she was merciful and didn't mention that I'd just bought a mandolin)

I responded...











Or, more accurately:


* *


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh dear, now I've offended two people! Not very Fe of me, I suppose. Blame Tumblr. 

I'll respond to you in the morning, @arkigos. If I can help it. Thank you again for your response. 

Also just to say - Varys wanted to kill Dany. As I reread I am forgiving him for this and thinking about him without that, but... You don't just plot to kill a poor girl. Or anyone, really? Like? That's so inexcusable to me. Deal with her when she does become an enemy. But don't send someone to kill her when she's just a _child._ And when she's done no harm except to not advance your interests. Ugh. I'm letting it go now and realizing that Varys actually is kind (I admire and agree with his attachment to the realm, Ned is stupid), in his own way, but the fact he would even consider killing an innocent person says a lot to me. (Probably more than it should, but eh.) 

And I don't have to explain why Melisandre is cruel. Thank her stupid deities. 

(And I know what you type Margaery and Sansa as. Partially why I mentioned it.  ) 

Be back later. Really going to try to go this time. Maybe. Good night all. Have fun. Type kindly.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear jumping off the mother theresa thing, I thought I'd mention that your bit about imagining yourself in stories as a servant made me think of Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (The Little Flower)


Ooh, I hadn't read about her; this was interesting.
My favorite saint (besides Mary) has historically been St. Teresa of Avila)
I'm frustrated because when I was younger I really liked this other saint who was martyred (I assume in Roman times) and sent her executioner flowers from heaven; similar to St. Therese's thing...can't find her name or anything about her. Anyone heard of this?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I'm not really trying to be politically correct... in the past I would have agreed with you, but now... I mean, it's true. I am a human like MLK, and I believe in civil rights like MLK, but I cannot pretend to understand his struggles and I think that does make it hard for me to claim likeness to him, at least for me. (It's the same with my reading Maya Angelou's autobiography. I relate to it dearly, and she reminds me a lot of myself honestly, but I cannot claim that I know anything of her struggles so it feels... wrong of me to pretend I can.) I'm not trying to be overly politically correct to impress anyone - this isn't Tumblr - but I do honestly feel that it is inappropriate of me personally to claim I am like them when... I'm not. Yeah, honestly it is social justice influenced but that's in my head now and I can't get it out. It's not that I'm trying to be politically correct though, ultimately... It's just honestly how I feel about it. (I apologize if this is offensive.)


eek, wasn't offended, just sort-of...commenting)


----------



## Psychopomp

alittlebear said:


> Oh dear, now I've offended two people! Not very Fe of me, I suppose. Blame Tumblr.
> 
> I'll respond to you in the morning, @_arkigos_. If I can help it. Thank you again for your response.
> 
> Also just to say - Varys wanted to kill Dany. As I reread I am forgiving him for this and thinking about him without that, but... You don't just plot to kill a poor girl. Or anyone, really? Like? That's so inexcusable to me. Deal with her when she does become an enemy. But don't send someone to kill her when she's just a _child._ And when she's done no harm except to not advance your interests. Ugh. I'm letting it go now and realizing that Varys actually is kind (I admire and agree with his attachment to the realm, Ned is stupid), in his own way, but the fact he would even consider killing an innocent person says a lot to me. (Probably more than it should, but eh.)
> 
> And I don't have to explain why Melisandre is cruel. Thank her stupid deities.
> 
> (And I know what you type Margaery and Sansa as. Partially why I mentioned it.  )
> 
> Be back later. Really going to try to go this time. Maybe. Good night all. Have fun. Type kindly.


If he wanted to kill her, it was for the good of the realm. Everything for the good of the realm. Every choice he made was a compassionate one... the greatest good for the greatest number of people. If you've read the books, I don't know if he actually sends assassins to her in them... but, in another instance he kills a good person (in book 5, I think), so, yeah... point stands. It is all for the realm. Like killing Hitler while he is still a child. That he is innocent doesn't hold a candle to what his continued existence will cause.

((Go! Chat with you tomorrow, eh?))


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@arkigos I liked that post but... Ick. No cause is worth hurting an innocent person. That's another thing I don't agree with with Ni. The ends _do not_ justify the means, especially if the ends involve _killing_ someone. My goodness. 

(But yes we already know I'm an Fe-using piece of fluff. Good night!)

Adit: also omg I wouldn't even kill Hitler as a child. If I had to go back in time and deal with Hitler, I would steal him and raise him to not be so... as he was. Foster his dreams. Take him away so he wouldn't be drafted for World War 1...

Heck. That's a great story concept. Terminator-style except the mother is protecting the otherwise villainous future person from becoming villainous, teaching them kindness. _Ooh..._


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @arkigos
> Adit: also omg I wouldn't even kill Hitler as a child. If I had to go back in time and deal with Hitler, I would steal him and raise him to not be so... as he was. Foster his dreams. Take him away so he wouldn't be drafted for World War 1...
> 
> Heck. That's a great story concept. Terminator-style except the mother is protecting the otherwise villainous future person from becoming villainous, teaching them kindness. _Ooh..._


My Ne is kind-of exploding with this) I like it) Wriiite it)
I'm always debating this sort of question. Does the act (killing an innocent child) outweigh the consequences (other innocent people being killed)? I don't know.
I think if I was a Ni user I would though)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> My Ne is kind-of exploding with this) I like it) Wriiite it)
> I'm always debating this sort of question. Does the act (killing an innocent child) outweigh the consequences (other innocent people being killed)? I don't know.
> I think if I was a Ni user I would though)


(Well Ni users would be stupid and wrong. You can't defend killing an innocent child. I'll slap them in the face for considering it ) 

Oh. And. @arkigos (okay this one and then I'll leave really yes) You also mentioned whether or not I relate to NFJs or SFJs that I know. I don't know too many NFJs that I can identify (other than possibly one of my professors) but... I don't quite relate to the SFJs I know? They are more socially connected than me. They can do small talk all day. The self-identified SFJs I know actually see me as this wise, deep person (and they're the only ones to tell me that directly, honestly? Which probably says something in and of itself.) 

But honestly one of the things I'm going to have to think about is how I can justify me and my ISFJ friend having the same type. She's so ISFJ... and so lovely... but we are so different! We are just like the NFJ vs SFJ examples @angelcat has posted. She wants to help people immediately, I want to help the entire world. She's planning how to help people now - here, have some jam! I'm going to make some for all of you guys, just to make them happy because they look lonely! I'm like... come on, [friend], they'll be okay. Just give them a friendly, kind smile and go to bed. I'm like... Leave me alone so I can figure out the truths of the world and contemplate what direction we should go in, figure out what part I should play in that journey. (And Enneagram doesn't even help! She's either a 2 or a 9 just like me. And we might even share 6, giving us the same tritype!) (then again, I would like to discuss with @angelcat about this a little, perhaps through PM, since apparently she also has an ISFJ best friend who she is not the exact copy of  )


----------



## Deadly Decorum

arkigos said:


> I was in Seattle recently


Don't you love Seattle? I live in Washington... but it is actually not Washington. It's all lies I tell you. There is little to no rain (in fact, there seems to be less rain than there was a few years ago... leads to believe global warming is a possibility after all... there is a climate change in the very least. A sharp ESTJ told me she thinks global warming is bullshit, but a climate change is real. That may be it).



arkigos said:


> and went into this eclectic vintage store... that was out of this world good even for Seattle.. and it was like heaven on earth.


Like this?








arkigos said:


> As we are prancing around like children, I suddenly stop and grab my wife.. "We have to leave, NOW!" and she says, "why!?" and I say, "..don't you see what is happening here? How long have we fought to stay pure in the face of this evil? Can't you see it has us in its pernicious grip?! We have to go." and she laughs, "you are wearing penny loafers, horn-rimmed glasses, and an officers dress shirt from the army surplus store. Oh, god, you don't even know what you are!" (she was merciful and didn't mention that I'd just bought a mandolin)


I could spend about 3 hours in a thrift store. Fo real. Or an antique shop. Luckily I have great impulse control... until I end up waffling back and forth between buying this cool thing or putting it back... and finally succumb to internal pressure. Those places are pure evil... they are heroin. They quit being recreational. You need them to function, and you hate your life when you relapse.

Mandolin may be the new hipster musical instrument. I always thought it was the ukelele (what is it with Ne and that damn ukelele? I hated that thing until I tried to figure out who sang that eclectic song on the very first episode of Spongebob Squarepants, and ended up falling in absolute love with Tiny Tim as a result. Is he SJ or NP? Definitely an introvert. I wonder...)




arkigos said:


> I responded...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or, more accurately:
> 
> 
> * *


I don't care what anyone says... I actually like hipsters. Genuine hipsters; not pseudo hipsters. There. I said it.

Wow what a derail, but does that matter? This is Derailment: the Thread.


----------



## AdInfinitum

@hoopla and @alittlebear Wait... what? I am interested in that. About me being XNFJ .


----------



## Darkbloom

:shocked:
What's going on with @alittlebear's type??


----------



## orbit

Someone obviously needs to make a post about how sensors are obviously naturally more intelligent and insightful than intuitives to stop all these stereotypes


----------



## Greyhart

I log in, chewing my cookie. @alittlebear is unknown personality. What is happening.

@arkigos that Storm video. I can't stop laughing. I'd love to see someone go off like that. Beautiful.









That is some extreme end of Ti inf. Most EFJs I know are way more reasonable. Except for the 21 12 2012 and the half a year preceding it. I'll never be over how my friend and my mother legit left a possibility that "All the energy on the Earth will cease to exist and we'll have to use fire too cook and heat for months." and didn't listen to my voice of reason. Yes, _all the_ energy. And yet we will be still alive because there's no energy involved in life forms and fire will work too because it indeed produces nothing even remotely related to "energy".

@alittlebear Thought of me being wrong about my NTPness scares me too because I've put so much actual 4realzies effort into intro/retrospection (which I kind of hate tbh, I'd rather be looking at not-me new things) that a thought that I've been wrong all along despite actually trying makes me think "Why bother making an effort all?". Ugh, if I can't decipher myself how can I be right about my view of others? Why people are so complicated. Why.



TelepathicGoose said:


> This is my fate V
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (p.s. I'm 16 now)


Aww, feathery one is a year closer to the end of the horrid time that people refer to as "teenagehood" and "high school". Congratulations, you can do it.



hoopla said:


> Is it impossible for NPs to *not* be hipsters? Thinking so.


Oi, I'm totally not a hips... ugh *remembers own glasses, skinny jeans, chucks, and a hair cut... "I liked super heroes before it was cool!"* ummm











hoopla said:


> Like this?


That looks like every museum in my city and my grandma's attic. I'd love to visit something like this








or see full scale dino skeletons








or whatever this is









Ah, the places that actually exist on Earth.


----------



## Darkbloom

Btw happy birthday @TelepathicGoose!
If it's still your birthday


----------



## Immolate

I switched over to ISTJ because alittlebear's comment about sensors yesterday made me sad :'(


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I switched over to ISTJ because alittlebear's comment about sensors yesterday made me sad :'(


I didn't mean it unkindly  Of course that's not the case, but if was speaking from the place of viewing myself as a Sensor and being self deprecatory. It backfired though and was actually kind of offensive. I honestly didn't mean it that way though...


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I just can't get over how Sam treats Gollum. Sigh. So unkind  But into fit the "faithful friend" archetype too frequently.


I don't like how he treats Gollum either. It's MEAN. But ... if you KNEW something was evil, and saw what it was doing to your best friend, I think you might reach a point of being brutally suspicious and judgmental too. Fe doesn't have to mean "nice." 



> I will say... while I did relate a bit to the new Cinderella - and she is my ultimate favorite princess - I didn't relate at the end where she was dancing around in the attic thinking about how her happy memories were enough to preserve her. (That's probably a stereotypical manifestation of Si, though, paired with my own adversion to thinking about the past due to trauma.)


Me either. I have plenty of happy memories, but the past is gone. Dead. Boring. Why would I relive it? At all? I go into Ne far more often, and daydream and fantasize. The closest I come to reliving my memories is picking up a book or a movie that triggers an old obsession and feeling an intense need to revisit all related material. 



hoopla said:


> I genuinely believe there is a real argument for Fe dom. I think she could go either way, but it would not surprise me at all.





alittlebear said:


> @angelcat is basically Margaery Tyrell so I can see ESFJ.  (was going to add more but dont want to border on unsolicited typing advice, no matter how colloquial this all is.)


Why? Why am I Fe-dom?

I've considered Fe-dom for myself, many times, but it doesn't explain why I pretty much ... don't socialize much. Granted, I grew up in the country far from anyone and got used to being alone, but when given the chance to be a social butterfly in moving to a new city, I didn't make any friends or go out and do anything, or even feel a real drive to ENGAGE. I sat at home, writing books. And whenever I am around people for very long, after about three days I'm exhausted. Then again, I'm quite good with Fe, and have always been very direct and outspoken, so ... who knows? Not nearly as good, or as highly emotional, as most of the ESFJs I know, though. So, who knows? Feel free to discuss if you want to, once you figure out @alittlebear; I've given up on typing myself. 

(Honestly, the "attention whore" aspect of myself is what makes me think high Fe. I love to entertain and be comedic and am always happiest when I get to talk extensively to people, but not about mundane things -- not small talk, but history, and art, and literature, and theology.)

Whatever @alittlebear is, I have a hard time not seeing her as a Fe-dom. She is SO FULL OF Fe. Unless I'm mistaken and aux Fe is less sensitive and more insecure than Fe-dom. (I love you, girl, but you apologize a lot, and explain yourself a lot, and backtrack a lot, and it's all very cute but so very "oh, I don't want to offend ANYONE..." Is that more aux-Fe? Because, I'm kind of that way, but also kind of not. Most of the time, people challenge me and I think, "That's stupid," and change whatever they are whining about, and then go on to ignore them.)



alittlebear said:


> But honestly one of the things I'm going to have to think about is how I can justify me and my ISFJ friend having the same type. She's so ISFJ... and so lovely... but we are so different! ... I would like to discuss with @angelcat about this a little, perhaps through PM, since apparently she also has an ISFJ best friend who she is not the exact copy of  )


Let's see. Differences between my friend and me.

She's more sensitive. I'm not. She sweats the little stuff (she is paranoid about how I'm going to feel about her disappointing me, or not being able to go somewhere or do something, and I ... don't care. Really. I don't get upset about stupid things like plans changing). She is far more inclined to warm up to people sooner, and she was actually mad at me after we first met, because she didn't think I was "opening up" emotionally to her soon enough. (I don't. I hold people at arm's length.) She, like, idolizes the past. Immortalizes it. Wants to go do all the same things every year, so she can relive her memories. She has this weird attachment to Disney, and wants to revisit the parks all the time that I can't relate to, and don't understand, because to me it seems juvenile. Both of us are restless, with neither one of us inclined to do anything about it. She is quicker to offer to serve others than I am. I am more grounded in practical things. (No, you can't buy a house on what you make in the suburbs; firstly, you couldn't get a loan on what you make, and then how are you going to take care of the place alone?)

She's... a lot like Sam Gamgee, actually. I'm more Elijah Mikaelson. Or Caroline Forbes, if you want Fe-dom, except I'm not entirely comfortable being the center of attention in a larger group. 



arkigos said:


> If he wanted to kill her, it was for the good of the realm. Everything for the good of the realm. Every choice he made was a compassionate one... the greatest good for the greatest number of people. If you've read the books, I don't know if he actually sends assassins to her in them... but, in another instance he kills a good person (in book 5, I think), so, yeah... point stands. It is all for the realm. Like killing Hitler while he is still a child. That he is innocent doesn't hold a candle to what his continued existence will cause.


I love Lord Varys. He's so immensely clever and kind. I can usually see his reasoning from a logical standpoint even if it is Ni-led. And... Dany. Ugh. It has nothing to do with her type, and everything to do with her being a hypocritical bitch.

And... yeah, here's where my pragmatism kicks in. Kill wee Hitler. Drown him as a young artist in whatever river he used to paint by.

Oh, no. The ENTP has arrived. When I log back in later, this thread will have 30 more posts in it!


----------



## Immolate

Actually, I have a curiosity. 

I see you @_hoopla_! I need an Si master for this.

So, I have this recurring.... it's not a dream, more like an element in a dream. It's a person. This person usually appears as a face in the crowd and we rarely ever speak. What's important is that this person always appears when I'm feeling lonely but don't realize or acknowledge it in my everyday life. It's only after I've seen the person in the dream that I realize I feel this way, because, to me, this person represents loneliness. In other words, my subconscious is telling me _you're an idiot, here's your problem_.

She's been appearing in my dreams for the last ten years. No, I haven't been lonely these past ten years! 

Is this some outlandish Si? Have I attached subjective impressions on an object? Do tell. This specter drives me crazy.

@_alittlebear_, I believe everyone is biased in some way even if they're not aware of it. I feel your comment betrayed a bias against sensors, but it's fine, I'm mostly teasing and I know you don't support that point of view.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> And... yeah, here's where my pragmatism kicks in. Kill wee Hitler. Drown him as a young artist in whatever river he used to paint by.


:shocked:

I never thought of drowning.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> :shocked:
> 
> I never thought of drowning.


Course, it wouldn't solve the problem. It would remove the figurehead, but the Holocaust was not just Hitler. There was an axes of dozens of hate-filled people, most of whom used him as a figurehead and speech-meister. From what I read, Hitler pretty much just signed whatever was put in front of him. He gets all the blame, although I don't think he deserves all of it.

CRAP! STOP MAKING ME DERAIL THE THREAD, PEOPLE.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Course, it wouldn't solve the problem. It would remove the figurehead, but the Holocaust was not just Hitler. There was an axes of dozens of hate-filled people, most of whom used him as a figurehead and speech-meister. From what I read, Hitler pretty much just signed whatever was put in front of him. He gets all the blame, although I don't think he deserves all of it.
> 
> CRAP! STOP MAKING ME DERAIL THE THREAD, PEOPLE.


Well, I meant I never thought of drowning specifically :laughing:

But yes, you have a point.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny I've tried to be a bit open about the fact that I'm like 90% of people who mistype as Intuitives, that I am a little sad to think I'm not Intuitive. @Curiphant and I are discussing that now actually. 

I definitely see ISFJs as brilliant and insightful - I know too many who are that to not think that - but it's just a little scary to me as someone who wants to live in the world of theories and analysis. I know this will come out biased, because, again, I am a bit biased and am affected by the stigma against SJs, ISFJs, and Ss in general in the MBTI Community. But, I mean... My professor did tell me that I was not insightful and that I was not deep, and as an NFJ I went "oh, he just doesn't understand the depth of my thoughts" but as an SFJ I have to think "wow... But he's right?"

It is partial bias against Sensors, but honestly it's more self deprecation. If I run into an ISFJ, I am never going to think "oh wow they're just parroting other people's ideas and not being original" because that's false and stupid. Everyone is insightful and intelligent, and that does not exclude any S out there. I just inflict the stereotypes upon myself in a different way. (I realize it's offensive and I apologize but please, please believe me when I say that my bias here is really only inflicted upon me.) 

I do honestly feel bad saying this, and I do not want to offend our SFJs here. I have never, ever thought about what I would think of myself as an SFJ about any of you. Obviously you are all brilliant and filled with beautiful truths and insights. It's just... different with me, sadly. And I feel bad admitting it but it really is one of the things I'm struggling with the most regarding this switch over.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Course, it wouldn't solve the problem. It would remove the figurehead, but the Holocaust was not just Hitler. There was an axes of dozens of hate-filled people, most of whom used him as a figurehead and speech-meister. From what I read, Hitler pretty much just signed whatever was put in front of him. He gets all the blame, although I don't think he deserves all of it.
> 
> CRAP! STOP MAKING ME DERAIL THE THREAD, PEOPLE.


I think @hoopla said it best last night when referring to this topic as "Derail: The Thread".


----------



## Immolate

@alittlebear, Please stop worrying. I know you value all people


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> I think @hoopla said it best last night when referring to this topic as "Derail: The Thread".


More like *Beware: the one thread which gives you an existential crisis*.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I still don't know if the Holocaust would have come to happen as it did, though? There were hate-filled people, but it think that hate-filled people are plentiful. Germany is not the only country to have suffered a terrible defeat. They might have done a few terrible things, but if don't think they would have developed as neatly into Nazi Germany without Hitler's influence.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> More like *Beware: the one thread which gives you an existential crisis*.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> [I used to have types here but now I have no idea who I am anymore within the type system so I took them away ~]


The sad story of my PerC life 


But seriously,I can't imagine you being an xSFJ at all :/
I have to read some of the ISFJ arguments I guess


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @shinynotshiny I've tried to be a bit open about the fact that I'm like 90% of people who mistype as Intuitives, that I am a little sad to think I'm not Intuitive. @Curiphant and I are discussing that now actually.
> 
> I definitely see ISFJs as brilliant and insightful - I know too many who are that to not think that - but it's just a little scary to me as someone who wants to live in the world of theories and analysis. I know this will come out biased, because, again, I am a bit biased and am affected by the stigma against SJs, ISFJs, and Ss in general in the MBTI Community. But, I mean... My professor did tell me that I was not insightful and that I was not deep, and as an NFJ I went "oh, he just doesn't understand the depth of my thoughts" but as an SFJ I have to think "wow... But he's right?"
> 
> It is partial bias against Sensors, but honestly it's more self deprecation. If I run into an ISFJ, I am never going to think "oh wow they're just parroting other people's ideas and not being original" because that's false and stupid. Everyone is insightful and intelligent, and that does not exclude any S out there. I just inflict the stereotypes upon myself in a different way. (I realize it's offensive and I apologize but please, please believe me when I say that my bias here is really only inflicted upon me.)
> 
> I do honestly feel bad saying this, and I do not want to offend our SFJs here. I have never, ever thought about what I would think of myself as an SFJ about any of you. Obviously you are all brilliant and filled with beautiful truths and insights. It's just... different with me, sadly. And I feel bad admitting it but it really is one of the things I'm struggling with the most regarding this switch over.


Same thing happened with me, when I had to switch from N to S. It sucked. But eventually, as I learned more and got a better sense of myself, it fit, so I ceased denying it and started defending SJs ... everywhere. LOL


----------



## Pressed Flowers

* *






angelcat said:


> I don't like how he treats Gollum either. It's MEAN. But ... if you KNEW something was evil, and saw what it was doing to your best friend, I think you might reach a point of being brutally suspicious and judgmental too. Fe doesn't have to mean "nice."
> 
> 
> 
> Me either. I have plenty of happy memories, but the past is gone. Dead. Boring. Why would I relive it? At all? I go into Ne far more often, and daydream and fantasize. The closest I come to reliving my memories is picking up a book or a movie that triggers an old obsession and feeling an intense need to revisit all related material.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Why am I Fe-dom?
> 
> I've considered Fe-dom for myself, many times, but it doesn't explain why I pretty much ... don't socialize much. Granted, I grew up in the country far from anyone and got used to being alone, but when given the chance to be a social butterfly in moving to a new city, I didn't make any friends or go out and do anything, or even feel a real drive to ENGAGE. I sat at home, writing books. And whenever I am around people for very long, after about three days I'm exhausted. Then again, I'm quite good with Fe, and have always been very direct and outspoken, so ... who knows? Not nearly as good, or as highly emotional, as most of the ESFJs I know, though. So, who knows? Feel free to discuss if you want to, once you figure out @alittlebear; I've given up on typing myself.
> 
> (Honestly, the "attention whore" aspect of myself is what makes me think high Fe. I love to entertain and be comedic and am always happiest when I get to talk extensively to people, but not about mundane things -- not small talk, but history, and art, and literature, and theology.)
> 
> Whatever @alittlebear is, I have a hard time not seeing her as a Fe-dom. She is SO FULL OF Fe. Unless I'm mistaken and aux Fe is less sensitive and more insecure than Fe-dom. (I love you, girl, but you apologize a lot, and explain yourself a lot, and backtrack a lot, and it's all very cute but so very "oh, I don't want to offend ANYONE..." Is that more aux-Fe? Because, I'm kind of that way, but also kind of not. Most of the time, people challenge me and I think, "That's stupid," and change whatever they are whining about, and then go on to ignore them.)
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see. Differences between my friend and me.
> 
> She's more sensitive. I'm not. She sweats the little stuff (she is paranoid about how I'm going to feel about her disappointing me, or not being able to go somewhere or do something, and I ... don't care. Really. I don't get upset about stupid things like plans changing). She is far more inclined to warm up to people sooner, and she was actually mad at me after we first met, because she didn't think I was "opening up" emotionally to her soon enough. (I don't. I hold people at arm's length.) She, like, idolizes the past. Immortalizes it. Wants to go do all the same things every year, so she can relive her memories. She has this weird attachment to Disney, and wants to revisit the parks all the time that I can't relate to, and don't understand, because to me it seems juvenile. Both of us are restless, with neither one of us inclined to do anything about it. She is quicker to offer to serve others than I am. I am more grounded in practical things. (No, you can't buy a house on what you make in the suburbs; firstly, you couldn't get a loan on what you make, and then how are you going to take care of the place alone?)
> 
> She's... a lot like Sam Gamgee, actually. I'm more Elijah Mikaelson. Or Caroline Forbes, if you want Fe-dom, except I'm not entirely comfortable being the center of attention in a larger group.
> 
> 
> 
> I love Lord Varys. He's so immensely clever and kind. I can usually see his reasoning from a logical standpoint even if it is Ni-led. And... Dany. Ugh. It has nothing to do with her type, and everything to do with her being a hypocritical bitch.
> 
> And... yeah, here's where my pragmatism kicks in. Kill wee Hitler. Drown him as a young artist in whatever river he used to paint by.
> 
> Oh, no. The ENTP has arrived. When I log back in later, this thread will have 30 more posts in it!





 

Sorry to put this under spoiler when it's so long but I wanted to be close to this and - ack, there's my apology isn't it? 

The things you listed about aux Fe / dom Fe are actually primary social anxiety symptoms. They're all ridiculously true - the over explaining, apologizing, backtracking (that's a new one but it's probably correct, don't even know what it means honestly), they are all things I do - but they're also things we know are a result of GAD. 

That said, I do think they're more Fe aux indicative. That's just my guess though. I would not know. 

As for you as an ESFJ... I think of your Ne. It seems so high! And, while I don't know you in real life, I imagine you definitely as an Fe dom type person? You _do_ also seem very much like an ISFJ (you would remind me more of my room mate that my ESFJ friend down the hall), and your Ti is well developed... Hmm. 

I was convinced that extroversion and introversion didn't really matter, but then I was thinking about SFJ types and going, "Wow, Leslie Knope is an ESFJ! But wait. I'm introverted... I couldn't be like that..." (But it's funny because both my friend and I love Leslie Knope. She says I'm Tom though  (But I mean I think I can feel the introverted struggle now, looking at extroverts and going... what?) 

That's another thing. The other day on your blog you mentioned how extroverts need to disconnect from reality and go spend time alone. I thought of that and... smiled laughed internally. Sure! I'll go disconnect from the world and go spend time alone! It's not like I'm doing that... my entire life. No, the introvert advice of "get out of your room" is so much ore relevant to me. 

Oh! And, back to my being an Fe dominant. I think... I don't know. I forgot what I was going to say here :/ But I can say that I can see myself as ISFJ but not ESFJ (despite what I said earlier here). Does that make sense? I mean, I am like most the ISFJ tropes but not at all like many of the ESFJ tropes. (This is a stupid reason, though, sorry?) 

And ooh, characters. Hmm. 

I did consider that about Sam, fighting true evil with his mistreatment of Gollum, especially when I read your interpretation. But... For me, I understand fighting evil, but not physically!! Then again, the LOTR is influenced more by the Greek way of expressing internal sentiments by openly showing them, so Sam's mistreatment of Gollum really probably was showing more his hatred of evil than his cruelty towards Gollum. (Me, I'm still like... Gollum is a person... Stop doing that... But... Eh.) 

As for Dany, agreed. Such a terrible character. I can't even. 

I mean, I am (finally! I know I've literally been saying this for the past week but!!!) ending GOT again and Dany IS sympathetic. To the extreme. She goes around saving slaves. She sees women being raped and declares that she will stop it. She sees slavery and declares she will stop it. She is a poor child who lost her husband and child. I feel sad for her. But I know it's all going to change when I see her being uber selfish in the upcoming chapters :/ 

As for Varys. Eep. Still can't justify killing a child. I'm too funky like that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> The sad story of my PerC life
> 
> 
> But seriously,I can't imagine you being an xSFJ at all :/
> I have to read some of the ISFJ arguments I guess


ESFJ I can't see as me, but ISFJ...? My life is kind of an ISFJ trope. Gentle, kind, sweet, helpful, harmless, amiable, friendly, innocent little flower.... I try to deny it and say people are just seeing me wrong but really I mean if everyone keeps describing me as these things they're bound to be onto something, you know.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Same thing happened with me, when I had to switch from N to S. It sucked. But eventually, as I learned more and got a better sense of myself, it fit, so I ceased denying it and started defending SJs ... everywhere. LOL


Yep, and honestly _thank goodness_ for your blog. I was looking in the ISFJ tag and one of the MBTI blogs posted something along the lines of "ISFJs are very traditional when writing, and will draw on their experiences to come up with traditional plots and a story based on their own life." LOL no. So glad there's a blog like yours out there working to clear up these terrible Si misconceptions. (Honestly, I think it's going to help so much. I think a lot of people look to your blog and learn about functions / MBTI through it, and hearing upfront how stupid the typical SJ and Si stuff is going to help them tremendously, I think.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm off... I think to watch the Pierce video of ISFJ. Will be back soon. 

(Also honestly I _was_ going to be gone all day. But people are generous and decided I could come later today instead of all day <3 good people in this world.)

Edit @arkigos thanks for that INTP video. Now I'm distracted and watching this because it was recommended for me




Oh, this guy.

(But oh my gosh I recently finished Season 2 and he's actually pretty right. Oh my goodness. I'm not alone with these opinions.)

(Also wow? How could Pierce type himself INTP? He's so so so different from this guy...)


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Sorry to put this under spoiler when it's so long but I wanted to be close to this and - ack, there's my apology isn't it?
> 
> The things you listed about aux Fe / dom Fe are actually primary social anxiety symptoms. They're all ridiculously true - the over explaining, apologizing, backtracking (that's a new one but it's probably correct, don't even know what it means honestly), they are all things I do - but they're also things we know are a result of GAD.
> 
> That said, I do think they're more Fe aux indicative. That's just my guess though. I would not know.


It reminds me of Maggie Smith's character on _A Room With a View_. "Oh, I'm sorry, I should have handed you the scissors!! Forgive me!!!" I suspect, if what you say is true, she's a prime example of GAD.



> As for you as an ESFJ... I think of your Ne. It seems so high! And, while I don't know you in real life, I imagine you definitely as an Fe dom type person? You _do_ also seem very much like an ISFJ (you would remind me more of my room mate that my ESFJ friend down the hall), and your Ti is well developed... Hmm.


My Ne is indeed high. But how much of that is owing to natural development, and how much is owing to my father -- who I used to think was ENFP, but now I'm getting a sense of ESFJ because he's more of a social activist than a "drop everything as soon as you achieve it" type -- who put me through rigorous Ne-things as a child. Everything is always changing, new ideas are always being thrown at me, new theological works, new ways of interpreting situations. As a family, we're in a constant state of ... impending and shifting change. I've always been a bit restless in that regard, though. I bore easily and want things in the outside world to entertain me. So, I guess an argument could be made for Fe/Ne in my case. 

Still, I pull back into my ESFJ experiences and notice how much more outgoing and constantly active all of them are, and that's not like me. Maybe it COULD be like me, somewhere else, but I've always been shy, reserved, and not at all inclined to walk up to total strangers and start conversations. 

(Ne swings back around, and says: but you're also a people person. You want to discuss what you love with people, constantly. You get depressed if people ignore you for very long. If no one wants what you have to offer, you feel like killing yourself. And, you would adapt to survive. Without hesitation. And find it quite easy.)

So, yeah. Part of me not wanting to be ESFJ, though, is the thought that my thinking function is inferior. That would suck. You think changing from intuitive to sensor was hard? Try from balanced emotions to Fe-dom. So, is my sensibility and easy manner of logic Fe/Ti, or Fe/Si/Ne? Helping my dad build things, he is forever saying, "You're good at this. You think ahead." Is that Ti/Ne or Ne/Ti?

(though, if I were an ESFJ, I'd probably have something in common with Sasha Roiz, so ... it's not all an epic disaster if I'm just a stifled extrovert)

Eh. Sorry. Making this all about me. Again. 



> Oh! And, back to my being an Fe dominant. I think... I don't know. I forgot what I was going to say here :/ But I can say that I can see myself as ISFJ but not ESFJ (despite what I said earlier here). Does that make sense? I mean, I am like most the ISFJ tropes but not at all like many of the ESFJ tropes. (This is a stupid reason, though, sorry?)


What are the ESFJ tropes? Cheerleader types? Homemakers? *has a flashback to Monroe in _Grimm_ and feels an outpouring of love*



> I did consider that about Sam, fighting true evil with his mistreatment of Gollum, especially when I read your interpretation. But... For me, I understand fighting evil, but not physically!! Then again, the LOTR is influenced more by the Greek way of expressing internal sentiments by openly showing them, so Sam's mistreatment of Gollum really probably was showing more his hatred of evil than his cruelty towards Gollum. (Me, I'm still like... Gollum is a person... Stop doing that... But... Eh.)


My heart is tugged by Gollum too. So much so that I would never treat him like that. And then my father said, "Gollum is EVIL. Pathetic as he may be, he is still evil, and it would be fundamentally stupid to trust him." 

I know, but ... I'm the girl who puts spiders outside rather than step on them. 



> I mean, I am (finally! I know I've literally been saying this for the past week but!!!) ending GOT again and Dany IS sympathetic. To the extreme. She goes around saving slaves. She sees women being raped and declares that she will stop it. She sees slavery and declares she will stop it. She is a poor child who lost her husband and child. I feel sad for her. But I know it's all going to change when I see her being uber selfish in the upcoming chapters :/
> 
> As for Varys. Eep. Still can't justify killing a child. I'm too funky like that.


Dany would be fine if she weren't so cruel in exchange for her compassion. Here, rescue those slaves. Now, nail their owners to those crosses. Nice, Dany. Real nice.



alittlebear said:


> Yep, and honestly _thank goodness_ for your blog. I was looking in the ISFJ tag and one of the MBTI blogs posted something along the lines of "ISFJs are very traditional when writing, and will draw on their experiences to come up with traditional plots and a story based on their own life." LOL no. So glad there's a blog like yours out there working to clear up these terrible Si misconceptions. (Honestly, I think it's going to help so much. I think a lot of people look to your blog and learn about functions / MBTI through it, and hearing upfront how stupid the typical SJ and Si stuff is going to help them tremendously, I think.)


My life is boring. Why in the hell would I want to use it for inspiration? Making up stuff is way more fun.


----------



## Immolate

Jumping in to say I dont understand the existential crisis after switching from S to N. You are who you are. If you've always felt conceptual or imaginative, why should that change when switching to sensing? Type is about PREFERENCES, and it really boggles my mind when people say sensors can't come up with metaphors or anything of that nature, and if they do, they're just regurgitating what they've read or heard from outside sources. Makes no sense to me. We use each function at one point or another, and @angelcat is a good example of someone who makes good use of her Ne despite it being "inferior."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat I'm distracted in YouTube now but please do not apologize for making it about you. Have you seen my threads? No one has any right to call themselves self-absorbed here but me.


----------



## 68097

Hypothetical question, for anyone who cares to answer it, but particularly @alittlebear.

Let's say, you were married to someone who was truly barbaric and awful, and had power over other people. How would you attempt to change and shift their direction? Or would you just shut down on them completely?*

I admit, my approach would be very Margaery Tyrell. Fascinate them with you, then try to manipulate them with it. Cease the head-on arguments and try passive-aggressive tactics instead.

* I have to mention, I think about situations like this A LOT. I've even used it in my books, to some extent, because it's so fascinating to me to explore such things -- good and evil, light and dark, brutality and moralizing. Inevitably, my heroines all wind up employing Fe in their reactions to it, to either a tremendous or lesser degree. I suppose that says something about their author, huh?


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Hypothetical question, for anyone who cares to answer it, but particularly @alittlebear.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say, you were married to someone who was truly barbaric and awful, and had power over other people. How would you attempt to change and shift their direction? Or would you just shut down on them completely?*
> 
> 
> 
> I admit, my approach would be very Margaery Tyrell. Fascinate them with you, then try to manipulate them with it. Cease the head-on arguments and try passive-aggressive tactics instead.
> 
> 
> 
> * I have to mention, I think about situations like this A LOT. I've even used it in my books, to some extent, because it's so fascinating to me to explore such things -- good and evil, light and dark, brutality and moralizing. Inevitably, my heroines all wind up employing Fe in their reactions to it, to either a tremendous or lesser degree. I suppose that says something about their author, huh?



I wouldn't have allowed myself in that position in the first place.


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> Let's say, you were married to someone who was truly barbaric and awful, and had power over other people. How would you attempt to change and shift their direction? Or would you just shut down on them completely?


I would find their weaknesses, use them against them to defeat them and stop the madness. I know they're gonna die someday, but they need stopped before they kill everyone and ruin the village for good. 

If I was next in line to the throne, I would take over. If not, I would help whoever else run things. I wouldn't want any more killings.
@shinynotshiny- What if it was someone you loved. You trusted them, but they changed and turned on you and the villagers?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Hypothetical question, for anyone who cares to answer it, but particularly @alittlebear.
> 
> Let's say, you were married to someone who was truly barbaric and awful, and had power over other people. How would you attempt to change and shift their direction? Or would you just shut down on them completely?*
> 
> I admit, my approach would be very Margaery Tyrell. Fascinate them with you, then try to manipulate them with it. Cease the head-on arguments and try passive-aggressive tactics instead.
> 
> * I have to mention, I think about situations like this A LOT. I've even used it in my books, to some extent, because it's so fascinating to me to explore such things -- good and evil, light and dark, brutality and moralizing. Inevitably, my heroines all wind up employing Fe in their reactions to it, to either a tremendous or lesser degree. I suppose that says something about their author, huh?


It's honestly hard for me to imagine because I'm not in that situation. Lately I've discovered that how I imagine myself acting in terrible situations and how I do act are sadly two totally different things. 

But I _completely_ agree with Margaery. This is your life. Do what you can with it. Not that my mom is a monster, but my dad thinks I should have learned by now that she's just going to get rude on the phone with customer service people, and that she's just going to pitch a fit to cashiers. That I should just ignore it by now. Nope. I'm still going to sigh and make unsettled comments like "Mom, I wish you wouldn't do that..." and "I just don't see the purpose of you doing that" and "Really, Mom? That wasn't right of you." It's terrible, and stupid, and I should stop because it's disrespectful... but it can't. I keep wanting to change her. 

Which isn't quite Margaery, but it is someone trying to change another person. 

I do try to warm up to people who I see as inherently unethical. If they grow attached to me and love me, they will value my opinion and not disregard everything I say. It's sad how frequently I use that tactic, warming up to people who aren't the nicest people. (well, I guess it's sad to me I'm self aware of this, because they are ethical people to me in one way, but... It is a little similar to your example.) 

What would be the alternative, though? Being like Sansa, moping about the situation? Killing the guy? Like honestly I'm not sure what else I could do but make the best of my situation and try to help people I can in my situation.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also, I don't particularly think about situations like that... but I do sometimes. Like one thing I ponder is... I've never felt connected to this culture, but sometimes I think how I really am like the ideal Southern lady, like it would be perfect for the time period if only I had lived two centuries ago. But then I think... Wow. But would I oppose slavery? Would I have that strength? And then I think of if I am opposed to I just structures in my own life. And... It just makes me wonder, and hope that I am the type of person who would be able to stand up against her family about slavery. (That's like... the only thought I've really entertained like that... but it is a thought. And a pretty ISFJ thought, no?)


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Hypothetical question, for anyone who cares to answer it, but particularly @alittlebear.
> 
> Let's say, you were married to someone who was truly barbaric and awful, and had power over other people. How would you attempt to change and shift their direction? Or would you just shut down on them completely?


For starters I'd ask myself how the hell I got there? Hah, OK but if I were already married... Well. It depends. Do I love them? Which could happen since love is stupid like that and doesn't pick targets well. If I did I'd go with Margaery's approach, yes. If I didn't, I'd look for a way to get rid of them. Not necessary kill but discredit or imprison somehow and take their place. If I knew that if they are gone I'll be gone as well or that I can't rule without their presence somehow, I'd think of the way to disable them in a way that they'd still be considered a ruler but could not physically or mentally rule by themselves thus I could look for a way to usurp the power myself. Queen regent and all that. Why did I take it as if we are talking about kingdom =_= Probably your mentioning of Margaery (who is my favorite GoT character btw). Same could be applied to other stuff to. Like politics or criminal world. Or religious movement, I suppose.

Hm, this is weird because I am not actually power-hungry. I think if I had someone I trusted I'd make them into a leader instead. Or at least heavily consult. Probably dump a lot of duties. Varys would be perfect btw  But he himself doesn't seem like a guy who'd want to sit on the throne either. I guess I could deal with throne-sitting.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

/remembers the fan fiction idea I had about a Hufflepuff girl reforming Tom Riddle with her kindness/ yeah actually I think I would probably act a lot like Margaery honestly...


----------



## Greyhart

Really, guys? Think bigger!


----------



## Immolate

Nuh uh. I dont care for power or visibility.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Nuh uh. I dont care for power or visibility.




__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Was looking for another gif but this works. Sort of. I mean it less harshly and more jokingly 

I've never understood power lust - like, at all - but visibility... I want visibility. Like, desperately.


----------



## Immolate

Fine. If I somehow couldn't get out of marrying this barbarian, I would work my way towards earning trust and confidence until I eventually have influence and possibly underground support from like-minded people, then I would put a plan into action where I would kill this barbarian in his sleep because I would never fall in love with him and I don't care to reform him with my nurturing ways. If he needs someone else to explain to him why rape and slavery are wrong, then he has little room for redemption. I do not care about cultural differences and accepting this kind of abuse because "it's their way." But during all this, I would have someone in mind to take power in his place because it's not going to be me. Maybe I'll take a "behind the scenes" approach.



Maybe I could imprison him instead but this is a hypothetical situation so I would stick a knife in his throat


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Nuh uh. I dont care for power or visibility.


It's not about you it's about having an opportunity to use already existing circumstances to do good. If the "power grid" is already built and in place all you have to do is to be sure to manipulate it in a beneficial way.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Fine. If I somehow couldn't get out of marrying this barbarian, I would work my way towards earning trust and confidence until I eventually have influence and possibly underground support from like-minded people, then I would put a plan into action where I would kill this barbarian in his sleep because I would never fall in love with him and I don't care to reform him with my nurturing ways. If he needs someone else to explain to him why rape and slavery are wrong, then he has little room for redemption. I do not care about cultural differences and accepting this kind of abuse because "it's their way." But during all this, I would have someone in mind to take power in his place because it's not going to be me. Maybe I'll take a "behind the scenes" approach.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I could imprison him instead but this is a hypothetical situation so I would stick a knife in his throat


You remind me of Agamemnon's wife. I was going to say Cassandra, but... She doesn't actually kill anyone... No, you're like Agamemnon's wife. Clymansetra, I think she's called? Something like that? I didn't actually read _Agamemnon_ all the way but [spoilers for Ancient Greek epic] she kills her husband (and her husband is a barbarian I think so like, accurate...)


----------



## Max

I am starting to really doubt my ESTJness for some reason. 

Can Ti be productive also? Can Ti make plans? Can Ti overanalyse? Can Ti stop asking questions? ;D


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> It's not about you it's about having an opportunity to use already existing circumstances to do good. If the "power grid" is already built and in place all you have to do is to be sure to manipulate it in a beneficial way.



Yeah, I would give someone else the title and do my thing less visibly.


----------



## Greyhart

Off topic but @angelcat if you are still here. I want to post Se vs Si gif set for this guy but I have 2 gifs I associate with Si (and one with low order Si) and can't pick one. Which one do you think is it?


* *





high Si

























low Si









Se


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @shinynotshiny- What if it was someone you loved. You trusted them, but they changed and turned on you and the villagers?


This.

I admit, I yanked the idea straight out of the TV series "A.D." A couple of episodes ago, Claudia mentioned to Pilate that she married an ambitious, skilled Roman diplomat ... who is now a psychopath. It's a case of "this is who you used to be, and I cared about that person," and now "what the hell are you doing killing people in my house?! What is WRONG with you?!"

She's an SFJ type. I kind of think Si-dom, but I could be wrong. How she has handled Tiberius in the last episode is so ... Fe-dom to me, so skilled, so effortless, so utterly able to win someone over to her side, that my view on her is shifting. That aside, in her shoes I would be even more responsive. Careful, because he's a loaded gun, but a woman can do a lot with her feminine wiles and she isn't using them enough, in my opinion. 

Curiouser, and curiouser, said the white rabbit. Down the rabbit hole we go!

I laughed reading some of the reactions to this question. Shiny's example cracked up the most: "Yeah, would never happen to me, because I wouldn't let it." Te/Fi! 

But @alittlebear's ... yours intrigues me. You can't imagine that situation because you're not in it? Hmm, interesting. I don't know that it speaks AGAINST FeNi or NiFe, but it certainly speaks against high Ne (to me, anyway). Then again, I spend half my time fantasizing about what I would do in various melodramatic situations, because that's more fun than working. LOL

@Greyhart... the first gif, with the seashell, seems ... more like it to me. Or maybe I just like it aesthetically more.


----------



## Greyhart

Also, guy, finished assigning types to my GW2 characters. :crazy: So happy I didn't make a single me-like character.


----------



## Max

Guys, in all honesty do you get a Te/Fi vibe off me, or Fe/Ti vibe. Or not sure, because I am a motherfudging headwreck? Haha. Lelz.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> the first gif, with the seashell, seems ... more like it to me. Or maybe I just like it aesthetically more.


Yeah, that one struck me with "subjective picture of an object" like it's being created in the mind until it's clear.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> I, bro, get the Si>Ne vibe from you. That's for one. Extrovert for another. And then if you combine this you have ESFJ vs ESTJ andf you are way too err... I hope Fe doms won't take it the wrong way, but pragmatical and logical for ESFJ. Like I see you growing out of rr... logic rather than ethics.


Yeah, but I dunno anymore lol. I am thinking about Enneagram also. My enneagram is 784- The Realist. Might that make me appear logical and pragmatic? Lol. 

Yes, I myself am leaning toward EStJ, but I'm still not sure. I'm good at appearing smarter and wiser than I really am. And the glasses help too 



angelcat said:


> I don't know for sure. I have my eye on you, though.
> 
> Oh, crap. That sounds creepy.
> 
> Kinda like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *giddy derailing of the thread continues*
> 
> I'll be WATCHING you...
> 
> Oh, @arkigos just turned up. This ought to be fun. =D


That's not really creepy, haha. Ted Bundy being a peeping Tom and murdering people.. now that's creepy ;D



shinynotshiny said:


> Hence becoming the enemy if I find I can't influence them or revert them back to their prior personality.


But if you become the enemy, then your chances of manipulating them back to their original state are virtually lost. 

If you are his enemy, and he sends out a search party to hunt you down and starts a war over that-- what's the point in that?

Why not get the job done now, fix the situation and then have your fun? ;D



alittlebear said:


> No. TPs just sit musing about the world 24/7. Maybe someday you'll come across a room of them. They just sit and stare,with the occasional ISTP tinkering with a game of Jengo. It's quite sad, but it's their best habitat.


I wasn't talking about IxTPs as such. I was more talking about how Ti emulates in ExFJs. I was reading something last night about how ExFJs can sometimes use Ti better than IxTPs can, and use it in an effective manner.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> But if you become the enemy, then your chances of manipulating them back to their original state are virtually lost.


I don't have to declare myself as the enemy to be the enemy :ninja:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't have to declare myself as the enemy to be the enemy :ninja:


I didn't say you had to. Your husband will pick it up before you tell anyone. He'll send out his army and declare you the enemy. Guaranteed.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> You'll be late.
> 
> 
> I'd have to trust my judgement of character and pick best possible team for this task... ... NOW I AM EXCITED ABOUT RULING A HYPOTHETICAL KINGDOM, THANKS.


Don't stop at a kingdom. Rule everything.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I didn't say you had to. *Your husband will pick it up before you tell anyone*. He'll send out his army and declare you the enemy. Guaranteed.


What? Is that so? _Really?_ Now you're just insulting me!


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> What? Is that so? _Really?_ Now you're just insulting me!


But... your husband is an ENFJ enneagram 8. He knew this was gonna happen anyway, and he planned it before you knew  He knew you needed taking down a notch or two.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Would it be believable if I said that I misunderstood my schedule and I'm actually being picked up an hour from now...?


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> But... your husband is an ENFJ enneagram 8. He knew this was gonna happen anyway, and he planned it before you knew  He knew you needed taking down a notch or two.












Do not go down this road, Lucho.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> But... your husband is an ENFJ enneagram 8. He knew this was gonna happen anyway, and he planned it before you knew  He knew you needed taking down a notch or two.


This is going off the rails fast.



shinynotshiny said:


> Don't stop at a kingdom. Rule everything.


Don't give me ideas.











shinynotshiny said:


> I don't have to declare myself as the enemy to be the enemy :ninja:


Sneaky so sneaky


----------



## Pressed Flowers

But. @angelcat get back here 

It's been so long since I've read HP, but I was so miffed by Lupin's reaction to his son. Like, what the heck? You're getting a child, but you're just upset because he will feel the pain you felt? (That's how I remember the exchange, at least.) It was just so pathetic. (But that's also probably from my personal experiences... I have a few somewhat severe disabilities, but I don't think I would mind having a child with those same struggles... or even different struggles. I got through it. I enjoy my life, even though like the definition of disability is like "something that hinders your life". It's really not that painful to have disadvantages in this world, it's just different.) (Then again I'm not a parent... and I suppose if I did knowingly bring into this world a child who couldn't walk, and I knew it would happen... I would feel probably ashamed of myself? Not sure though.) 

Also, that scene on the train. How awkward! The chocolate and all! I disliked him when I first met him because he seemed so distant... and that's sort of how I see Fi. He was cool once you got to know him, but before that he was just plain awkward. (Again, haven't read the books in a a while, I apologize for my simplicity.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Do not go down this road, Lucho.


Do I want to know what is happening


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Do I want to know what is happening


Don't feed it.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Do not go down this road, Lucho.















Greyhart said:


> This is going off the rails fast.


He's a Roman Don Corleone with no conscience.


----------



## Greyhart

I thought JK used Lupin's thing as a metaphor for AIDS. So that makes sense. With the kid, I mean.


----------



## Greyhart

@LuchoIsLurking @shinynotshiny


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I thought JK used Lupin's thing as a metaphor for AIDS. So that makes sense. With the kid, I mean.


I understood his struggle with the idea of having a child, as immature as it was.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> @_LuchoIsLurking_ @_shinynotshiny_


Indifference is the answer.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Hey, also 

I'll tag... @Living dead because this is E related and @angelcat because she still thinks I could be Fe dom 

I think my overly Fe-ness probably comes a lot from my having a strong social instinct in Enneagram theory. Society is so important to me, even though I struggle to engage in it. Just the other day my dad and I were talking about my neighbor, who lives along and kind of hates everyone and goes out of her way to kind of be bitter. (It's really sad.) And I just... I just told my dad that's so sad to me! And he's like, well it's not so sad, I'm sure she's happy, I don't really care about her anyway... but to me it was just sad. She has her dog, I'm sure she has happy moments, but she's turned everyone in her community against her. She's just a disagreeable person. And I don't see any chance of that changing. 

I don't know, just seemed like a ridiculously SO thing to me. How can life be happy if someone is completely cut off from the world and scowls bitterness unceasingly?


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Indifference is the answer.


The answer is indifference.


Greyhart said:


> @LuchoIsLurking @shinynotshiny


Make love with war. Problem solved. You make love with ENFJ 8, manipulate him, give him amazing sex and give him an offer he can't refuse. Job done. No-one dies haha.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I thought JK used Lupin's thing as a metaphor for AIDS. So that makes sense. With the kid, I mean.


Oh my gosh what the heck I didn't even

I see it more as like a disability? Hmm. Maybe she was trying to be more intention with AIDS but I saw it as more of just a stigmatizing disability (or stigma in general, I think he could be a stand-in for anything that someone has to hide that they can't help, whether nationality, sexual orientation...)


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> The answer is indifference.
> 
> Make love with war. Problem solved. You make love with ENFJ 8, manipulate him, give him amazing sex and give him an offer he can't refuse. Job done. No-one dies haha.


You have crashed and are in the process of burning.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I understood his struggle with the idea of having a child, as immature as it was.


I actually don't think that's immature in real life... In the book it was immature I thought (mostly because how pathetic he was portrayed), but in real life I consider people who consider these things quite responsible.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh what the heck I didn't even
> 
> I see it more as like a disability? Hmm. Maybe she was trying to be more intention with AIDS but I saw it as more of just a stigmatizing disability (or stigma in general, I think he could be a stand-in for anything that someone has to hide that they can't help, whether nationality, sexual orientation...)


I saw it more as sexual orientation, or a disability that didn't manifest outwardly. He had to hide and was actively discriminated against for who he was. That's no way to live.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

(omg. just realized that Les Mis gifs are a thing)


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> You have crashed and are in the process of burning.


But, he's not god. We gotta bring his Se-side out. Get him interested. Have a good time. Get him under your spell. Find his weaknesses. Bring em out. Make him vulnerable.

(Sorry. Having too much fun with this question).


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> (omg. just realized that Les Mis gifs are a thing)


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> But, he's not god. We gotta bring his Se-side out. Get him interested. Have a good time. Get him under your spell. Find his weaknesses. Bring em out. Make him vulnerable.
> 
> (Sorry. Having too much fun with this question).


No, really. I suggest you stop.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> No, really. I suggest you stop.


I'm sitting here laughing at this question. I am like the laughing Policeman. This has greatly amused the Luchador.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I'm sitting here laughing at this question. I am like the laughing Policeman. This has greatly amused the Luchador.


Figures.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

How do I find out what the biggest topic in the What's my personality type? Forum is.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Figures.


Imagine us both stuck in a bedroom in a ferry together. It would be... strangely amusing... 


alittlebear said:


> How do I find out what the biggest topic in the What's my personality type? Forum is.


You're in it? ;D


----------



## fair phantom

*cuddles Lupin protectively*


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Indifference is the answer.


I meant with each other. :tongue:


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> But. @angelcat get back here
> 
> It's been so long since I've read HP, but I was so miffed by Lupin's reaction to his son. Like, what the heck? You're getting a child, but you're just upset because he will feel the pain you felt? (That's how I remember the exchange, at least.) It was just so pathetic.
> 
> Also, that scene on the train. How awkward! The chocolate and all! I disliked him when I first met him because he seemed so distant... and that's sort of how I see Fi. He was cool once you got to know him, but before that he was just plain awkward. (Again, haven't read the books in a a while, I apologize for my simplicity.)


You're not the boss of me! =P

I LOVED Lupin ... up until that thing about abandoning his kid and running away. I wanted to slap him, and tell him to get over his self-loathing and be a dad. That was the one time I was totally on Harry's side, when Harry dressed him down about abandoning his family. Good for Harry. Someone had to say it.

But, oh my gosh, in book three? LOVE. Lupin. So. Much. SUCH an awesome character. Not that it reveals type at all, but he was ... terrific.

Would a Fi-dom go along with his friends, though, in teasing Snape? Or want to be liked so desperately as to ignore the things they do not like?

Most people see Lupin as a metaphor for homosexuality (werewolf), which ... I guess I can see it? But ... eh.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I meant with each other. :tongue:


I know.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh what the heck I didn't even
> 
> I see it more as like a disability? Hmm. Maybe she was trying to be more intention with AIDS but I saw it as more of just a stigmatizing disability (or stigma in general, I think he could be a stand-in for anything that someone has to hide that they can't help, whether nationality, sexual orientation...)


Well It's incurable, easily transmutable, people that are affected with it will be feared because people will afraid to catch it. So, yeah I thought AIDs. That also in addition the way she described him physically seemed like how one think of someone with low/damaged immune system.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> *cuddles Lupin protectively*












I like an awkward character too. It's so weird. I love him. Mostly because the stupid Very Potter Musical. I almost kept watching that silly thing to see more of this character. (Be back with a video soon.)

Edit: okay Quirrel is my bae. I've always loved him, but in this musical thingy I love him like way more than usual 






Oh my gosh and this song is beautiful. Same characters.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Well It's incurable, easily transmutable, people that are affected with it will be feared because people will afraid to catch it. So, yeah I thought AIDs. That also in addition the way she described him physically seemed like how one think of someone with low/damaged immune system.


I hope this isn't too personal of a question but exactly how much of Rent have you watched Greyhart


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> How do I find out what the biggest topic in the What's my personality type? Forum is.


200 pges


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> You're not the boss of me! =P
> 
> I LOVED Lupin ... up until that thing about abandoning his kid and running away. I wanted to slap him, and tell him to get over his self-loathing and be a dad. That was the one time I was totally on Harry's side, when Harry dressed him down about abandoning his family. Good for Harry. Someone had to say it.
> 
> But, oh my gosh, in book three? LOVE. Lupin. So. Much. SUCH an awesome character. Not that it reveals type at all, but he was ... terrific.
> 
> Would a Fi-dom go along with his friends, though, in teasing Snape? Or want to be liked so desperately as to ignore the things they do not like?
> 
> Most people see Lupin as a metaphor for homosexuality (werewolf), which ... I guess I can see it? But ... eh.


The freaking out over the child was awful, but I consider it a momentary lapse of judgment. He did the right thing in the end.

I wouldn't have gone along with the teasing, but when your friends decide to become animagi for you there might be a greater sense of indebtedness?

I saw it as an HIV metaphor. *shrug*


----------



## Greyhart

Greyhart said:


> *1.* It's a room of White. It has rows of smooth featureless white pillars that rise from the white floor and get lost high up in the white fog that obscures room's ceiling... Or lack of there of. Any way you look there are parallel rows of white columns going far and getting lost in the distance. You can't see the end or walls. Its illuminated seemingly from nowhere and _everywhere_ because there are no shadows cast.
> 
> *2.* It just popped into my head. I swear I actually don't understand myself. Why do I think it's awesome? Perhaps I see it a malleable space that could be anything? Like a canvas that could be changed into whatever I want. Perhaps I am just intrigued by such seemingly impossible space existing. Why would it exist? Who would create this? Perhaps it's a dreamscape. Or the origin of it. The beginning where the mind conceives its visions.


:| Why? This is bland. But it feels awesome to me?

*reading now* FPs run rampart with theirs.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> :| Why? This is bland. But it feels awesome to me?


It doesn't seem bland, more majestic. Kind of gives me an afterlife feeling. Do you think the endlessness might be Ne popping up? White seems quite 'blank canvas' to me, or maybe I'm just reading into it too much (and then I actually read your answer to the second question...).

I feel maybe mine was more... bland?


laurie17 said:


> *I.* I would like you to conceive of a room or physical, indoor space that's beautiful. The room can serve any purpose and have any qualities. I would like to to reach into the depths of your imagination and conceive of some physical space which would induce a sense of elation, awe, and wonder. Try to think of what it feels like to experience profound awe, wonder, and fixation, then project this feeling around you and tell me what it would look like.
> *A room with a huge window in one wall which looked out onto a lake and trees and fields, and many smaller windows on the ceiling that look onto the sky at various points of the day or night (the large one would be automatically covered by thick curtains at night). It would be soundproofed, but I could open the ceiling windows if I wanted outside noise. It would be a comprehensive library of books I want to read, or have read, with traditional dark-wood panelling, red carpet and lots of comfortable chairs, but it would include a comfortable couch for napping on in a dark corner. It would have paintings all across the upper walls and ceiling, on natural and fantastical images.
> It would be connected to a house with my family and cat inside and they would intuitively know when they could come in or not.*
> 
> 
> *II.* Describe to me why you think this space is beautiful.
> *Because it's peaceful and comfortable - everything would be quiet, muted and soft. I find that in many spaces, there's something which makes it less peaceful and comfortable. My living room is quite close to a different, but almost ideal, room in that it's rarely intruded upon by anyone who I'm not at least 90% comfortable with and mostly it's just me, my mum, my sister and my cat - and we all go about our business without having to pay attention to one another all the time. In this room I've imagined, I would have more privacy and more books (because books are expensive) and would be able to do everything at my own pace.*


----------



## Greyhart

xD You described nerdy introvert's dream habitat.

I just thought about "my room" for a while. And got some associations for it.

I think it might be influenced mines of Moria. I'm not a LOTR fan, though. I like movies.









And partly by endless gifs that I absolutely adore.









Also I thought about The Cube movie which I absolutely hate. I hate scenarios that pit small group of people against each other. :dry: Lord of flies can go and burn.

None of this popped into my head when I thought about the room, though. Is this sneaky low Si work?


----------



## Darkbloom

OMG can't find the picture

So,first of all,it's opposite of @Greyhart,very non-minimalistic,very dramatic
Room itself is big and has a high ceiling,I think a high ceiling is something you need for the kind of room I like to make sense
There's definitely a bed like this (link does not work going for new one-eh,can't find the one and I couldn't upload it even if I found it,victorian bed,you know what those look like)
not necessarily the exact one or the same color,don't really like the color,but you get the idea
I always wanted to have a bed like that.Or the kind with curtains around it,what are those called?(I hate English:frustrating
Or the one that is similar to the one in picture but has some sort of fabric on headboard
It's just sooooo...I don't know the word but I know I need that thing in my life lol
I also always wanted one of those ornate mirrors
And one of those huge chandeliers,black prefferably,I adore them.
The walls should be...I'm not sure of the color,it could be something gentle(not pure white though),also something dark and dramatic like brownish red or maybe something completely different,perhaps some pattern,definitely some pattern.
And there's lots and lots of little details I'm not sure of,but I think you get the idea.
Anyway,I just like the idea of that style,I'd love to know I'm coming home to that and I'd love to soak up that atmosphere,if that makes sense.
Plus,the mirror and the background would make for some damn good selfies


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> xD You described nerdy introvert's dream habitat.
> 
> I just thought about "my room" for a while. And got some associations for it.
> 
> I think it might be influenced mines of Moria. I'm not a LOTR fan, though. I like movies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And partly by endless gifs that I absolutely adore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I thought about The Cube movie which I absolutely hate. I hate scenarios that pit small group of people against each other. :dry: Lord of flies can go and burn.
> 
> None of this popped into my head when I thought about the room, though. Is this sneaky low Si work?


Haha, maybe!

The Mines of Moria were pretty creepy though, in a way - mostly because they're deep underground. A nice reworking of them? 
That gif is so relaxing, especially after my job hunt today. Endlessness is sort of appealing to me, but also unnerving. I prefer contained areas, or just outside.

I also don't like small groups being in competition. There's something very stressful about it...


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> The Mines of Moria were pretty creepy though, in a way - mostly because they're deep underground. A nice reworking of them?


Good job me.









This is going to preoccupy me for some time now. The most similar to mine were INTP who described greek-like building early on. And ISTP who described underwater room.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> It doesn't seem bland, more majestic. Kind of gives me an afterlife feeling. Do you think the endlessness might be Ne popping up? White seems quite 'blank canvas' to me, or maybe I'm just reading into it too much (and then I actually read your answer to the second question...).
> 
> I feel maybe mine was more... bland?


It seemed to suggest something on the Ne-Si axis but I'm unsure where along it. Definitely some sort of sensitive function, maybe on the Fi-Te axis too. Also fairly practical and realistic, so I'd lean more away from Ne possibly, or have it further down?

I wrote this:


tine said:


> *I.* I would like you to conceive of a room or physical, indoor space that's beautiful. The room can serve any purpose and have any qualities. I would like to to reach into the depths of your imagination and conceive of some physical space which would induce a sense of elation, awe, and wonder. Try to think of what it feels like to experience profound awe, wonder, and fixation, then project this feeling around you and tell me what it would look like.
> *No ceiling that can be seen, with tall trees and plants everywhere, so it's a bit jungle like. Quiet noises of animals around. Not too hot or cold, just comfortable, and not humid. A slight breeze running through it. It doesnt need bright colours or anything, just tall plants towering over me, with smaller ones all around. Animals moving through the space, ignoring me and just acting naturally.*
> *The feeling of awe and wonder would be an almost crippling sensation in my chest that leaves me breathless and almost sad because it's so overwhelming. If projected it would be invisible but a mass of energy that disturbed everything it touched with its intensity.
> *
> *II.* Describe to me why you think this space is beautiful.
> *Peaceful, calm, safe. It being so natural and powerful in itself and yet fairly simple to look at at a glance. Lots of details to examine in seemingly uncomplicated spaces. It has power through its size and strength, while somehow appearing fragile. The animals moving through it would add depth and mystery, while the lack of roof would prevent me feeling closed in and claustrophobic. With everything carrying on around me and me not having an impact it would show my insignificance in the general area and mean I could watch and not have to participate until I felt ready. It would somehow be perfectly balanced.*


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> xD You described nerdy introvert's dream habitat.
> 
> I just thought about "my room" for a while. And got some associations for it.
> 
> I think it might be influenced mines of Moria. I'm not a LOTR fan, though. I like movies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And partly by endless gifs that I absolutely adore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I thought about The Cube movie which I absolutely hate. I hate scenarios that pit small group of people against each other. :dry: Lord of flies can go and burn.
> 
> None of this popped into my head when I thought about the room, though. Is this sneaky low Si work?


Yours definitely shows the expansive nature of Ne. Im not sure about if it shows your Ti, but definitely shows Ne!


----------



## Tad Cooper

Living dead said:


> OMG can't find the picture
> 
> So,first of all,it's opposite of @_Greyhart_,very non-minimalistic,very dramatic
> Room itself is big and has a high ceiling,I think a high ceiling is something you need for the kind of room I like to make sense
> There's definitely a bed like this (link does not work going for new one-eh,can't find the one and I couldn't upload it even if I found it,victorian bed,you know what those look like)
> not necessarily the exact one or the same color,don't really like the color,but you get the idea
> I always wanted to have a bed like that.Or the kind with curtains around it,what are those called?(I hate English:frustrating
> Or the one that is similar to the one in picture but has some sort of fabric on headboard
> It's just sooooo...I don't know the word but I know I need that thing in my life lol
> I also always wanted one of those ornate mirrors
> And one of those huge chandeliers,black prefferably,I adore them.
> The walls should be...I'm not sure of the color,it could be something gentle(not pure white though),also something dark and dramatic like brownish red or maybe something completely different,perhaps some pattern,definitely some pattern.
> And there's lots and lots of little details I'm not sure of,but I think you get the idea.
> Anyway,I just like the idea of that style,I'd love to know I'm coming home to that and I'd love to soak up that atmosphere,if that makes sense.
> Plus,the mirror and the background would make for some damn good selfies


Could you say why you like this room/why its beautiful to you?


----------



## Darkbloom

tine said:


> Could you say why you like this room/why its beautiful to you?


Just soaking up that atmosphere, it makes me think of what life would be like if I lived in those times when they had such rooms, who would I be, what would I wear
It just brings a bit of it in real world,and it makes it feel like past never goes away,because honestly some of the things happening in the world right now are scary.I don't mean wars and all other kind of awfulness,it's mostly people basically being forced to change,but I'd rather not go into details.
Anyway,it's just beautiful to me, similar way that I find old carousels beautiful,as well as those antique dolls(scary as hell but there's something about them that makes me feel like I'm sooo gonna start collecting them one day lol)
Another reason is in the end of my previous post


----------



## Greyhart

*Ne&Si&Fe:* We could come up with the really awesome room with lots of stuff where people (and you) would want to live!

*Ti:* meh. I'd have to describe all that stuff and make it sound coherent.

*Si:* :'(

*Fe:* Oh, no. You hurt him!

*Ne:* SO GET THIS. Room. All white. There's this weird-ass lighting 'cause there ain't no shadows. And these huge-ass pillars, and they are super tall. And you can't see the ceiling. And the room is like ENDLESS! You feeling me?

*Ti:* ...


----------



## Darkbloom

Btw,I also LOVE some extremely modern looking rooms,modern to the point of it being too much for most people lol ,like full of glass and lights and weird shapes and random waterfalls and stuff but they don't really have that special _something_,you know?


----------



## Greyhart

@tine your fits your avatar SO WELL.


----------



## To_august

laurie17 said:


> On another note, I found this topic yesterday and thought it might possibly be useful for typing (maybe perceiving functions?). I've already replied.
> http://personalitycafe.com/general-psychology/552554-describe-beautiful-room.html


As long as there's table, computer and bed, the room is already beautiful to me. :laughing:I don't pay attention to decorations anyway.
Absence of noisy and irritating conditions is also welcomed. Guess I'm closer to minimalist and spartan styles.

This is such a nice derailing thread


----------



## Immolate

Still rooms? Very well.


* *







































Very simple. And there would be a separate room for books.


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> Btw,I also LOVE some extremely modern looking rooms,modern to the point of it being too much for most people lol ,like full of glass and lights and weird shapes and random waterfalls and stuff but they don't really have that special _something_,you know?


The bland ones. I'd love to live in one too. Lots of space and air. I don't like small cluttered rooms even though I've been living in such all my life.


----------



## owlet

Living dead said:


> OMG can't find the picture
> 
> So,first of all,it's opposite of @_Greyhart_,very non-minimalistic,very dramatic
> Room itself is big and has a high ceiling,I think a high ceiling is something you need for the kind of room I like to make sense
> There's definitely a bed like this (link does not work going for new one-eh,can't find the one and I couldn't upload it even if I found it,victorian bed,you know what those look like)
> not necessarily the exact one or the same color,don't really like the color,but you get the idea
> I always wanted to have a bed like that.Or the kind with curtains around it,what are those called?(I hate English:frustrating
> Or the one that is similar to the one in picture but has some sort of fabric on headboard
> It's just sooooo...I don't know the word but I know I need that thing in my life lol
> I also always wanted one of those ornate mirrors
> And one of those huge chandeliers,black prefferably,I adore them.
> The walls should be...I'm not sure of the color,it could be something gentle(not pure white though),also something dark and dramatic like brownish red or maybe something completely different,perhaps some pattern,definitely some pattern.
> And there's lots and lots of little details I'm not sure of,but I think you get the idea.
> Anyway,I just like the idea of that style,I'd love to know I'm coming home to that and I'd love to soak up that atmosphere,if that makes sense.
> Plus,the mirror and the background would make for some damn good selfies


I don't know what those bed-curtains are called either, but they're pretty neat.

All of this seems very Se, with lots of colours and textures everywhere - then suddenly purposeful Fe at the end, which is interesting.



tine said:


> It seemed to suggest something on the Ne-Si axis but I'm unsure where along it. Definitely some sort of sensitive function, maybe on the Fi-Te axis too. Also fairly practical and realistic, so I'd lean more away from Ne possibly, or have it further down?


I am having a very slow day and didn't realise for a while that you were talking about my description. What do you mean by sensitive function? I guess I do have the expansive thing of Ne, but then I kind of go 'Eh, but this is fine' and don't really go after it (unless the idea is very transfixing).

I actually noticed with yours that it seems very Se - lots of rich detail and all the senses are hit (it's an effective description because it feels real, but that's my writer side coming out).

Hey, maybe this is good for Perceiving functions!


----------



## Immolate

I would throw away money on interesting lamps.

















And useless stuff for the walls:


----------



## Max

arkigos said:


> There is no reasoning. That is kinda the point. Se sees a red balloon, let's say, and say "wow, zazzy!" and then the balloon pops and they go "whoa! that was loud! Cool! Let's pop more." Then you tell them to describe the balloon and they shrug and say, "okay, whatever, it's red and has a string" and you go "wow, see, that's Se for you!" and they punch the balloon and chuckle and you are off making notes about how Se "describes things as they are" as if you've discovered something. But, what have you learned? Well, if you were paying attention you'd have learned that Se types really like dynamics of experience and are not particularly impressionistic of intuitive when describing things.
> 
> So, what is Se? How does Se describe a balloon? The answer, I reiterate is 'it doesn't'.
> 
> Se doesn't describe an apple. It eats it.


Judging by that logic, I am sure I am Si. I am great at descriptions. I am great at storytelling.


----------



## Psychopomp

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Judging by that logic, I am sure I am Si. I am great as descriptions. I am great at storytelling.


But, I think I just said the opposite of that. 

Se would be better at recollecting events because they are not abstracting objects into impressions and are not unfocusing objects for the sake of intuition. 

I personally find Fe to be the pivotal function for a good storyteller - at least as a performer. Shel Silverstein and Neil Gaiman come to mind. It depends on what you mean, though. I am sure lots of different types can be good storytellers for a lot of reasons, but Fe, seems to be best as I see it...


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


>


Dat thing. I'm pretty sure I'd get stack stating at it each time I passed it. Dangerous thing.

Speaking of dangerous things. That thing that the Feathery One linked yesterday.








I want it on my wall so bad. In a huge size. I could spend hours starting at it.


----------



## orbit

A red balloon is obviously a voluminous object that is almost as big as my head and is filled with gas particles that are slowly leaking out. It obviously represents a lover's life because the reflective red. A lover's blood thrums to match its pair (or pairs) and therefore reflective and blood is you know red. The air represents its clear soul because nothing taints a lover besides its love and blood. It's soul slowly leaks into the world to be reincarnated into another balloon that might be a bellman. 

Sorry that was 100% bs.

I wish there was an alternate version of me that had Fe so we could compare story telling skills


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Dat thing. I'm pretty sure I'd get stack stating at it each time I passed it. Dangerous thing.
> 
> Speaking of dangerous things. That thing that the Feathery One linked yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want it on my wall so bad. In a huge size. I could spend hours starting at it.


That useless mirror. Stare into it while you drink your morning coffee. Have thoughts.

The colors. I just see broken computers and televisions.


----------



## Max

arkigos said:


> But, I think I just said the opposite of that.
> 
> Se would be better at recollecting events because they are not abstracting objects into impressions and are not unfocusing objects for the sake of intuition.
> 
> I personally find Fe to be the pivotal function for a good storyteller - at least as a performer. Shel Silverstein and Neil Gaiman come to mind. It depends on what you mean, though. I am sure lots of different types can be good storytellers for a lot of reasons, but Fe, seems to be best as I see it...


Pft. Then I might actually use Fe+Si. The more I think about it. 
ESFJ > ENTP.


----------



## orbit

Doesn't JK Rowling use Fe-Si?


----------



## Darkbloom

I'm a horrible storyteller imo,I mix up parts of a story,add parts of a different story,forget parts of the one I'm telling,I end up making no sense at all XD


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> That useless mirror. Stare into it while you drink your morning coffee. Have thoughts.
> 
> The colors. I just see broken computers and televisions.


I see something new each second. Patrick Star, Ditto, Mickey Mouse, Teddy bear, random cartoon-ish characters, flowers, Squirtle, starship so on. I get stuck watching abstract art like this. Or even tiles. I've said about tiles so many times already omg it's like I have a fetish. But I see those every day?

Err, anyway. So far I am getting out of http://personalitycafe.com/general-psychology/552554-describe-beautiful-room-5.html#post17725194 is that SPs want something groovy and IxNx-s want comfy places to do their introverted stuff without being interrupted by uncomfy-ness.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I see something new each second. Patrick Star, Ditto, Mickey Mouse, Teddy bear, random cartoon-ish characters, flowers, Squirtle, starship so on. I get stuck watching abstract art like this. Or even tiles. I've said about tiles so many times already omg it's like I have a fetish. But I see those every day?
> 
> Err, anyway. So far I am getting out of http://personalitycafe.com/general-psychology/552554-describe-beautiful-room.html is that SPs want something groovy and IxNx-s want comfy places to do their introverted stuff without being interrupted by uncomfy-ness.


And yet Si is supposed to be the comfort master.


----------



## owlet

arkigos said:


> There is no reasoning. That is kinda the point. Se sees a red balloon, let's say, and say "wow, zazzy!" and then the balloon pops and they go "whoa! that was loud! Cool! Let's pop more." Then you tell them to describe the balloon and they shrug and say, "okay, whatever, it's red and has a string" and you go "wow, see, that's Se for you!" and they punch the balloon and chuckle and you are off making notes about how Se "describes things as they are" as if you've discovered something. But, what have you learned? Well, if you were paying attention you'd have learned that Se types really like dynamics of experience and are not particularly impressionistic of intuitive when describing things.
> 
> So, what is Se? How does Se describe a balloon? The answer, I reiterate is 'it doesn't'.
> 
> Se doesn't describe an apple. It eats it.


Sorry, somehow I never got the notification for this quote.

I think this might be an oversimplification. Se does prefer to see/hear/smell/do before it makes a judgement, but only Se dominant types do it for the sake of it (but even then, saying 'they just eat the apple' seems far too simplistic for a cognitive process - it might be more like a reluctance to judge before it has been proven - the Ni user assumes 'that apple is crunchy' without trying it, whereas the Se user is hesitant to have that kind of narrowed perception before they have actually tried the apple - hence feeling uncomfortable with Ni's leaps).

Se can be used to describe (of course it doesn't describe, a person using all functions has to - Si, Ni and Ne don't describe on their own, but perceive) - it's taking the perception of the object and putting it into words, which reduces it down from all of the available data, but does make for great clarity when concerning the world. Ne is usually more expansive and, as a result, usually loses some of the clarity.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> And yet Si is supposed to be the comfort master.


Don't think so. Low Sensing in general wants to have a good environment that doesn't fight high N. Like if something doesn't feel right in the environment (or body) I get pulled out of my Ne lalaland and it greatly disturbs me.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Sorry, somehow I never got the notification for this quote.
> 
> I think this might be an oversimplification. Se does prefer to see/hear/smell/do before it makes a judgement, but only Se dominant types do it for the sake of it (but even then, saying 'they just eat the apple' seems far too simplistic for a cognitive process - it might be more like a reluctance to judge before it has been proven - the Ni user assumes 'that apple is crunchy' without trying it, whereas the Se user is hesitant to have that kind of narrowed perception before they have actually tried the apple - hence feeling uncomfortable with Ni's leaps).
> 
> Se can be used to describe (of course it doesn't describe, a person using all functions has to - Si, Ni and Ne don't describe on their own, but perceive) - it's taking the perception of the object and putting it into words, which reduces it down from all of the available data, but does make for great clarity when concerning the world. Ne is usually more expansive and, as a result, usually loses some of the clarity.


I would never say an apple was crunchy unless I was told it was or I touched it.


----------



## Greyhart

"The eat apple thing" I think it would be more correct that SPs would wish to manipulate this figurative "apple". To use cliche with artists - to recreate in their work. Not necessary destroy it or anything. Interact with image perhaps would be more correct?



tine said:


> I would never say an apple was crunchy unless I was told it was or I touched it.


That avatar is just adorable somehow. Reminds me of Lovecraft's Mi-Go.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Don't think so. Low Sensing in general wants to have a good environment that doesn't fight high N. Like if something doesn't feel right in the environment (or body) I get pulled out of my Ne lalaland and it greatly disturbs me.


Socionics Si is big on comfort and you also hear things like Si is very aware of their bodies and states etc.


----------



## Tad Cooper

@laurie17
if the apple I was told was crunchy wasn't actually crunchy, then I would bury it and tell it how disappointed I was with it and hoped it grew something better in the future.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Socionics Si is big on comfort and you also hear things like Si is very aware of their bodies and states etc.


Sometimes I don't notice hunger or pain but the other times I'm suddenly hyper aware of uncomfy-ness around me and need to make a nest so I can start ignoring it again.

What would low Se want? Perhaps environments that doesn't fight inner vision? Some thing beautiful and clean so you wouldn't get "stuck" on dissecting how bad interior looks?



tine said:


> I would never say an apple was crunchy unless I was told it was or I touched it.


That avatar is just adorable somehow. Reminds me of Lovecraft's Mi-Go.


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Socionics Si is big on comfort and you also hear things like Si is very aware of their bodies and states etc.


I think Si is seen as a sort of comfort function, because of the bodily awareness idea. Se would be more into aesthetic things than comfortable things, overall, I think. But then, maybe if the Se user has the aesthetic ideal of comfort, they might be more likely to prefer comfortable things? (And the talking in circles begins...)


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> @_laurie17_
> if the apple I was told was crunchy wasn't actually crunchy, then I would bury it and tell it how disappointed I was with it and hoped it grew something better in the future.


That's Ni, obviously, because you're thinking of the future. :wink:

(Also I love snails, so I'm joining your snail-avatar coolness.)


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> That's Ni, obviously, because you're thinking of the future. :wink:
> 
> (*Also I love snails, so I'm joining your snail-avatar coolness*.)


My work here is done!


----------



## Greyhart

The snails are multiplying. 
Do raccoons eat snails


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> The snails are multiplying.
> Do raccoons eat snails


Not this snail, they don't!


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> Ha... you're right; your accent deterred me from your video. I feel like an asshole. However, I don't think you have to doubt ExTP... you definitely are. I've wondered if you're possibly Se... but I think Ne is a better fit. Also... from your appearance alone (such a stereotyper) I thought "what a hipster". I actually am friends with hipsters, no sweat.


Oh, dear I am a hipster even in home clothes. As for video coherency, that is my failing. I should've checked how I sound in a short video before spending half an hour talking.  Thank you for checking it anyway!



> Oh come on... oddities is amazing. Don't crush my dreams.


Hah, just in my city exhibits in the museums weren't changed since like mid 20s century if not earlier. So we have toxidermised animals like











> Though the dinosaur museum... when I was little I was living in this underdeveloped housing complex... tumbleweeds and desolate dirt lots galore... and I was digging for dinosaur fossils. I knew they probably were not there at all... but I didn't care. I found none, and gave up after 3 days. My friends probably thought I was dumb. I kind of was.


I tried too. Then found out about age of soil in my areas and realized they can't be found here I need to go to places where ground from that era is up in the air. :'(



> Your mother is crazy. I could tell you interesting stories of similar theories my mother has cooked up... they're so fucking insane.


21 12 2012? That was on TV. The theories. Experts were invited and would preach about what to do, how to survive. As the months go it went from "no energy for few days" to "no energy for a years" to "no energy left IN THE UNIVERSE" I shit you not. And my parents were like "Well, whatever you say just in case will get tons of food and candles!". I've never woken up feeling more smug than on dec 22. "I TOLD YOU. I've been telling you this for a half a year!"


----------



## Immolate

Excerpt from the "Ask an ISTJ" Thread:



> Being surprised by an outcome can be enjoyable to us, too. Being surprised when there is too much at risk is what scares an ISTJ. That's why we like to break things down and experiment (whether physically or mentally) with the individual components of a system rather than throw untested pieces together based solely on hypothesis and conjecture and let the chips fall where they may. Chips can be expensive!
> 
> I've mentioned before that, to me, Si is very much like a primitive survival instinct... always monitoring my environment for changes, alerting me and stimulating cautious curiosity when they're encountered. When Si encounters something new... the initial reaction I ALWAYS feel is a "fight or flight" feeling (very much like, if not, a shot of adrenaline) that puts me on alert, immediately followed by an insatiable curiosity to learn everything I can about the new thing. Find out if it's useful, but don't risk existing resources any more than is necessary. Needing to carefully balance risk/reward is a constant for the ISTJ.


It's like eating dry chicken.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> There's still some things. I was thinking how I was kind of ISFJ today, but there's still some things that seem Ni to me that I don't know why I do, or how I do them if I'm an Si-dominant. (But, for the record, I think that stuff @arkigos mentioned about the apple representing the human heart or something... Not to insult Ni but that sounds ridiculous, to me. It doesn't matter what it symbolizes, it matters what it means to the person. My mom has a turtle on her desk, but that's because I gave it to her and she saves turtles, not because she likes how turtles represent innocence, helplessness, and self preservation in a fierce world. Different things mean different things to different people, and I can't see the use in losing sight of that.)


But...the apple representing the human heart seems so beautiful and accurate...


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> But...the apple representing the human heart seems so beautiful and accurate...


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


>


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


>


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> (Jeez, there are so many images of snails with guns...)


This depends on the size of this snail. If it's still small that gun would level it.


On touching things. I hate touching things. I want my clothes to be max textureless. So some cottons or silk are the best. "Cool" street clothes are unfortunately often made of synthetic materials but then I don't have to wear them at home, thank God. Anyway I dislike touching fabrics even when picking one for my clothes in the store I start touching it only to be sure it won't annoy me later. And unpleasant touch sensations stick to me. Like before I was 14 we were living in 1 room flat and grandma had this awful coach cover. I can't remember _exact_ feeling of it's texture but I remember feeling of extreme disgust it gave me. Like I could stand coming in touch with it in any way. Some kind of textures thick synthetics blend. UUUUGH. Petting pets is hella good, though. I miss my cat and dog.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Wait @angelcat didn't you say Captain America is ISFJ


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


>


----------



## Greyhart

I have a prop red apple on my PC. My mom bough it as a joke because of my name. Eva. Get it? Apple and Eva. Haha, mom.


----------



## Max

This whole thing is confusing.


----------



## orbit

MBTI is so structured. Do personalities really fall into axises and e-I-e-i or i-e-i-e pattens? Or do we force them to?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> There's still some things. I was thinking how I was kind of ISFJ today, but there's still some things that seem Ni to me that I don't know why I do, or how I do them if I'm an Si-dominant. (But, for the record, I think that stuff @arkigos mentioned about the apple representing the human heart or something... Not to insult Ni but that sounds ridiculous, to me. It doesn't matter what it symbolizes, it matters what it means to the person. My mom has a turtle on her desk, but that's because I gave it to her and she saves turtles, not because she likes how turtles represent innocence, helplessness, and self preservation in a fierce world. Different things mean different things to different people, and I can't see the use in losing sight of that.)





arkigos said:


> Well, it in itself is neither feeling nor thinking. It is just an image. As Jung said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen an Ni-dom go through the whole process of this without betraying any feeling one way or another. One might have a jolt of feeling when seeing someone strike someone else... but the sheer act of perception does not imply it. Seeing an apple as mortal sin doesn't mean that the Ni has any particular feeling on the subject.


I honestly don't understand Ni yet but for my ENFJ friend I find it extremely entertaining to her go on and on what this or that move in a dance represents. Or talk about how she sees different dresses of dancers add different meanings to the dance itself. She's also into Ancient Egyptian "mysticism". She has a history degree to back that up but she is mainly interested in interpretations of their cultural/religious symbols. I am more interested in just learning about ancient cultures as a whole that narrowing it into one specific "trait".


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I honestly don't understand Ni yet but for my ENFJ friend I find it extremely entertaining to her go on and on what this or that move in a dance represents. Or talk about how she sees different dresses of dancers add different meanings to the dance itself. She's also into Ancient Egyptian "mysticism". She has a history degree to back that up but she is mainly interested in interpretations of their cultural/religious symbols. I am more interested in just learning about ancient cultures as a whole that narrowing it into one specific "trait".


... I do definitely do this. Of course the hand gestures represent something, and the dresses? (In good productions, at least.) I wonder if your friend isn't mistyped, though? I certainly do this but I don't know if it's exclusive to Ni.


----------



## Darkbloom

Greyhart said:


> This depends on the size of this snail. If it's still small that gun would level it.
> 
> 
> On touching things. I hate touching things. I want my clothes to be max textureless. So some cottons or silk are the best. "Cool" street clothes are unfortunately often made of synthetic materials but then I don't have to wear them at home, thank God. Anyway I dislike touching fabrics even when picking one for my clothes in the store I start touching it only to be sure it won't annoy me later. And unpleasant touch sensations stick to me. Like before I was 14 we were living in 1 room flat and grandma had this awful coach cover. I can't remember _exact_ feeling of it's texture but I remember feeling of extreme disgust it gave me. Like I could stand coming in touch with it in any way. Some kind of textures thick synthetics blend. UUUUGH. Petting pets is hella good, though. I miss my cat and dog.


Not super reated but my xNFP mother is so easily bothered by some things,for example her hair when she's trying to fall asleep and she generally finds it hard to sleep if environment isn't right and if she doesn't feel right.
She is more like that now that she's older.
I,however,used to be more like that as a child,I remember being annoyed by my ears when trying to sleep XD(but mostly I hated how they looked so feeling them reminded me of that,maybe?Idk,I was weird lol)
I also hated those cotton balls 
Now I don't care about anything like that.
My ISFJ grandma though hates those things inside clothing(are those tags?),finds many fabrics uncomfortable,etc.,also quite sensitive to noise(always complains about neighbours talking or doing work around their place and I'm like "Just don't pay attention" but no,she just has to pay attention),smell,etc.


----------



## AdInfinitum

hoopla said:


> Warning- astronomically long post ahead, because I'm replying to a multitude of people.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To say I have read everything that has been said since I left would be pretending. This thread moves quickly.
> 
> @alittlebear You are a definite Fe. It comes across as... very heavy. Though you do use a good deal of Ti and.. admittedly, I mistook it for Ni. Ti also seeks truth, but the truth of logic rather than reality. I could also see introvert for you, but I knew that if you *were* an Ni, you were in no way a dominate one. I thought maybe a shy extrovert?
> 
> The one thing I have noticed is you are very passive and timid. Jung actually said Si dominates are typically passive, and I agree with him. I, in many ways, relate. You don't take immediate action against the throes of injustice; rather, you operate behind the scenes. I do the same thing. It's really difficult for me to call out how inappropriate someone is being whilst I see it. I become ghost like and silent... I'm easily intimidated. That is how I see you as well.
> 
> Si types are the stream a waterfall flows into. The peaceful contrast to a chaotic, toxic world. If a person is not peaceful, nonchalant and soothing, I consider them Je rather than Si doms.
> 
> In fact, you remind me of Wilt from Foster's Home... he may be an Se rather than an Si (Haven't seen that show since I was like 13 or something) but he was certainly an Fe, and he would try to put his foot down, but he could not. And he over apologized. I related to him in that way... I apologize unnecessarily, and awkwardly too. It's intimidation I believe and well... I don't like offending people (Unless I'm pissed off).
> 
> I actually think Si types can be seen as very wise, insightful and mature. I get that quite a bit actually. Si-Fe is more serious I think. Fe-Ne/Ne-Fe is more goofy, usually. I thought maybe ENFJ because your Fe is used very seriously, but perhaps ISFJ is a better fit.
> 
> @Greyhart Ha... you're right; your accent deterred me from your video. I feel like an asshole. However, I don't think you have to doubt ExTP... you definitely are. I've wondered if you're possibly Se... but I think Ne is a better fit. Also... from your appearance alone (such a stereotyper) I thought "what a hipster". I actually am friends with hipsters, no sweat.
> 
> Oh come on... oddities is amazing. Don't crush my dreams.
> 
> Though the dinosaur museum... when I was little I was living in this underdeveloped housing complex... tumbleweeds and desolate dirt lots galore... and I was digging for dinosaur fossils. I knew they probably were not there at all... but I didn't care. I found none, and gave up after 3 days. My friends probably thought I was dumb. I kind of was.
> 
> Your mother is crazy. I could tell you interesting stories of similar theories my mother has cooked up... they're so fucking insane.
> 
> @angelcat I've thought about Fe dom for you quite a bit beforehand. I'm not saying you are, but it's possible.
> 
> 1. I'm not entirely convinced your Ti is stronger than your Ne
> 2. You said it yourself... you are directive. Outspoken. Bold. Blunt. I'm not saying 100% of the time, but more than me and @alittlebear. I get the impression that if you were witnessing the throes of injustice, it would be hard for you to hold your tongue. As @Alittlbear and I have discussed, it's difficult for us to speak up. We will, but behind the scenes, if that makes sense.
> 3. As @alittlebear said... you juggle *a lot* of projects. A website, 2 blogs, an online magazine, and you've written 2-3 books. You are older than me, so you've had much more experience than I to accomplish these things... but I cannot fathom that. I don't even think I could finish a novel. Either way... I don't think I could sustain the energy to tackle so many different things and share them all with the world in such a manner.
> 4. Feeling does not necessarily equal emotions... luckily @arkigos covered this better than I can.
> 
> I don't think you're like the biggest socialite there ever was, no. I'm speaking cognitively. Though I will ask, are you being hyperbolic when you say it takes you 3 days of hanging around someone to drain your "batteries" (that metaphor is so cheesy)? Because 3 days... sounds insane to me.
> 
> I was friends with a creative, nerdy ESFJ in grade and middle school. We hung out all the time... once she cooked up the idea to have me spend the night for 3 days. Dude, horrible idea. I was so done after like the second day... and she could of been up for me staying the entire week. I thought I was just an asshole... until I learned I am not.
> 
> @shinynotshiny I am entirely unsure how to analyze that... but I'll come back to it later. Maybe I'll PM you about it. I'm still not convinced of Ni dom, tbh... but you are certainly a Te-Fi I think. This whole thread is a band of Fes... and then you pop in to give us Fi wisdom. I love it.
> @NobleRaven.... well, I think you're an Fe rather than an Fi, and I don't think it's dominate either. I don't think you're an Si dom... I stalked your posts (tehehe) and noticed a questionnaire... maybe I'll analyze it later.


I used to think I was Fe too... until I realized I hate it so deeply when people actually make sacrifices for others just to please them. This is also why I can not hinder around in this thread for too long. Just so much niceness and sorries thrown around, it comes to the depth of suffocating myself. I am not able to adhere to anyone's opinions and feelings unless they are my own and that is how the layers of recognition lay around. Fe is just too aggressive even if it is aux, even when upset, it wants others to suffer with it as well, I have 0 interest in that kind of litter. However the truth is I also do not condemn anyone who tries to fall into the lines of other's feelings, every addiction lies into the soul of the perceiver. But I still slightly condemn it because it just seems to me as if Fe has no special imprint on its own identity, no trace of itself, it only wants to shock people and gather them.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> MBTI is so structured. Do personalities really fall into axises and e-I-e-i or i-e-i-e pattens? Or do we force them to?


They fall into functions. The 4 letters for me is just a name. IRL if it comes to it I say I am a Don Quixote. Everyone knows him at least rudimentary.



NobleRaven said:


> I used to think I was Fe too... until I realized I hate it so deeply when people actually make sacrifices for others just to please them. This is also why I can not hinder around in this thread for too long. Just so much niceness and sorries thrown around, it comes to the depth of suffocating myself. I am not able to adhere to anyone's opinions and feelings unless they are my own and that is how the layers of recognition lay around. Fe is just too aggressive even if it is aux, even when upset, it wants others to suffer with it as well, I have 0 interest in that kind of litter. However the truth is I also do not condemn anyone who tries to fall into the lines of other's feelings, every addiction lies into the soul of the perceiver. But I still slightly condemn it because it just seems to me as if Fe has no special imprint on its own identity, no trace of itself, it only wants to shock people and gather them.


Ooooh, getting Fi here. Getting it. 











Living dead said:


> Not super reated but my xNFP mother is so easily bothered by some things,for example her hair when she's trying to fall asleep and she generally finds it hard to sleep if environment isn't right and if she doesn't feel right.
> She is more like that now that she's older.
> I,however,used to be more like that as a child,I remember being annoyed by my ears when trying to sleep XD(but mostly I hated how they looked so feeling them reminded me of that,maybe?Idk,I was weird lol)
> I also hated those cotton balls
> Now I don't care about anything like that.
> My ISFJ grandma though hates those things inside clothing(are those tags?),finds many fabrics uncomfortable,etc.,also quite sensitive to noise(always complains about neighbours talking or doing work around their place and I'm like "Just don't pay attention" but no,she just has to pay attention),smell,etc.


When I moved here my mattress was on the soft couch instead of hard bed I was used to. First few days were like "THIS DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT" like the princess and the pea.


----------



## Psychopomp

alittlebear said:


> ... I do definitely do this. Of course the hand gestures represent something, and the dresses? (In good productions, at least.) I wonder if your friend isn't mistyped, though? I certainly do this but I don't know if it's exclusive to Ni.


What they could whimsically be thought to represent... or what they absolutely do represent to you? Also, how relatable are these images?



Greyhart said:


> They fall into functions. The 4 letters for me is just a name. IRL if it comes to it I say I am a Don Quixote. Everyone knows him at least rudimentary.


It is, btw, super awkward to describe myself as 'the same as Einstein'. Or, as I prefer to say it, 'basically Einstein'. 

One ISTJ friend said to me, "So, this system tells you that you are Einstein? No wonder you like it so much."


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I honestly don't understand Ni yet but for my ENFJ friend I find it extremely entertaining to her go on and on what this or that move in a dance represents. Or talk about how she sees different dresses of dancers add different meanings to the dance itself. She's also into Ancient Egyptian "mysticism". She has a history degree to back that up but she is mainly interested in interpretations of their cultural/religious symbols. I am more interested in just learning about ancient cultures as a whole that narrowing it into one specific "trait".


Yeah, that's actually interesting and the interpretation leads to a deeper understanding of something, like looking at symbols of a triple goddess and reinterpreting what we've been told about snakes and the tree of life so on and so forth. How likely is it that someone is going to grab an apple for a snack and think of it as the heart of the world full of wriggling worms? I mean, _once in a while_, if the mood strikes, but not everything is wrought with ~meaning~ all the time. It just read like a heavy example.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh! @hoopla My ISFJ friend actually finds me quite bold. She says "I can only see you doing that." I've always been i afraid to speak up, say what I think, offer a new perspective no one is considering. She thinks I'm weird in that way. Could just be in a 7 and she's not, but I don't know.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

NobleRaven said:


> I used to think I was Fe too... until I realized I hate it so deeply when people actually make sacrifices for others just to please them. This is also why I can not hinder around in this thread for too long. Just so much niceness and sorries thrown around, it comes to the depth of suffocating myself. I am not able to adhere to anyone's opinions and feelings unless they are my own and that is how the layers of recognition lay around. Fe is just too aggressive even if it is aux, even when upset, it wants others to suffer with it as well, I have 0 interest in that kind of litter. However the truth is I also do not condemn anyone who tries to fall into the lines of other's feelings, every addiction lies into the soul of the perceiver. But I still slightly condemn it because it just seems to me as if Fe has no special imprint on its own identity, no trace of itself, it only wants to shock people and gather them.


Yes, it's very possible I am wrong.

I will say, however, that I also do not like niceness for the sake of niceness. It needs to mean something to me. I remember one time, my sister was crying about how she feels as if she feel bad for what she is... and well, I sort of said some not so nice things, out of the guise of trying to help... because I am a bad liar. And well, my mother, what did she do... fake, cheesy voice, and all these compliments... I wondered how true they were. I thought that was disgusting... tell people the truth. Fake flattery is absolutely horrible, and leads people on in the most insidious of ways. It's not kind or helpful at all. I actually consider it rather rude. If I given you a compliment, it almost always comes from my own heart, and I almost always mean it.

I am still an Fe. Though... sometimes I white lie because it's easier... and I'm aware people will erupt fiery lava if I don't. It took awhile to realize this though... I used to be insulting without realizing it. But no, I don't really do what you describe.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> They fall into functions. The 4 letters for me is just a name. IRL if it comes to it I say I am a Don Quixote. Everyone knows him at least rudimentary.
> 
> 
> Ooooh, getting Fi here. Getting it.


Yes but they fall into the functions in that pattern. I wasn't talking about the four letters or I'm confused about that. I'm just impressed that humans just happen to be able to be Se-Ni or Fe-Ti or anyone of the two and one of the two match the other one in the other paired axis and I'm explaining this horribly. Like I'm wondering what's stopping someone from having Si-Ni or being Ni-Fi-Se-Te?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> Oh! @hoopla My ISFJ friend actually finds me quite bold. She says "I can only see you doing that." I've always been i afraid to speak up, say what I think, offer a new perspective no one is considering. She thinks I'm weird in that way. Could just be in a 7 and she's not, but I don't know.


In what ways does she consider you bold?

The fact it's hard for you to speak up actually points at introversion.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


> They fall into functions. The 4 letters for me is just a name. IRL if it comes to it I say I am a Don Quixote. Everyone knows him at least rudimentary.
> 
> 
> Ooooh, getting Fi here. Getting it.


According to Socionics I still have a 3D Fe, I simply refuse to use it in favour of Fi when communicating. I want novelty in anything I think, in anything I discover however settling just for the love of others would rash my soul to the point of dispersing. Ever heard how the separation of an atom could destroy anything around? That is how I feel I display my own interior. I want individuality in groups, not the same grain battling the same direction. However, I still have the mind of Ne first, I want to inspire others to discover themselves and not discover myself through different, novel ways.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @hoopla sorry I can't do a longer response, phone really about to die, but I wonder if my passivity isn't my anxiety? I really dream of the day when I can take action. I don't think this is me.
> 
> I also do take action against injustice. If I see it, I say something, unless my anxiety or phobic mother gets in the way.
> 
> I agree about being behind the scenes to some extent... my place and position is usually to smooth things down, make it flow nicer.
> 
> Like my friend was being bullied in ninth grade. He was being humiliated in class. I was shocked. I didn't say anything there - that would have been awkward, I didn't have the social position to do that - but I did go to the teacher afterwards and tell her that I would appreciate it if the moved my friend away from those mean students.


haha I would have told the bullies off and possibly been hurt in retaliation (i know because that is what happened in a similar situation...more than once). your way is probably better.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> ... I do definitely do this. Of course the hand gestures represent something, and the dresses? (In good productions, at least.) I wonder if your friend isn't mistyped, though? I certainly do this but I don't know if it's exclusive to Ni.


Hmm, no I don't think she is. It's not about gestures representing something. It's like this dress is.. I can't come up with a relevant explanation. The dresses I mean in latino sports dances? Like those

* *














These are made just to look attractive on the dance floor but she scabs some serious weird shit out of it. As for dance moves... I mean like this dip here is his something something passion blah blah and here she it means first love or some sex related etc. Seriously I can't come up with examples without feeling weird about it. I'm just like OK, if you say so.


----------



## Darkbloom

QUESTION:
I can't tell a direct lie about a person
Like, my friend always complins about her appearance,and it's ok when it's general,I then compliment her on good things,give advice,etc. but if she says some specific flaw and I can see it I just can't say it's not true, I just turn attention back to something else but I'm sure she still knows what I really think by that :/
Sorry for superficial example,that's just the latest one lol
Anyway,noticed some Fe's tend to really exaggerate like "OMG you're perfect!" plus does it matter speech which I can't do unless I mean it in that situation(besides,"does it matter" is pointless,it obviously does to her)


----------



## Greyhart

NobleRaven said:


> According to Socionics I still have a 3D Fe, I simply refuse to use it in favour of Fi when communicating. I want novelty in anything I think, in anything I discover however settling just for the love of others would rash my soul to the point of dispersing. Ever heard how the separation of an atom could destroy anything around? That is how I feel I display my own interior. I want individuality in groups, not the same grain battling the same direction. However, I still have the mind of Ne first, I want to inspire others to discover themselves and not discover myself through different, novel ways.


^That entire thing went right into grating my Ti-Fe. Err, not saying I don't like you or anything just that sort of thinking/feeling is really not for _my_ brain to work with.


----------



## Greyhart

arkigos said:


> What they could whimsically be thought to represent... or what they absolutely do represent to you? Also, how relatable are these images?
> 
> 
> 
> It is, btw, super awkward to describe myself as 'the same as Einstein'. Or, as I prefer to say it, 'basically Einstein'.
> 
> One ISTJ friend said to me, "So, this system tells you that you are Einstein? No wonder you like it so much."


I like Don Quixote archetype.  Shows I don't take myself too seriously. Or that I am crazy and have a serious thing against windmills... Either way I like it.



Living dead said:


> QUESTION:
> I can't tell a direct lie about a person
> Like, my friend always complins about her appearance,and it's ok when it's general,I then compliment her on good things,give advice,etc. but if she says some specific flaw and I can see it I just can't say it's not true, I just turn attention back to something else but I'm sure she still knows what I really think by that :/
> Sorry for superficial example,that's just the latest one lol
> Anyway,noticed some Fe's tend to really exaggerate like "OMG you're perfect!" plus does it matter speech which I can't do unless I mean it in that situation(besides,"does it matter" is pointless,it obviously does to her)


Hm, I've no problem with lying there. In most cases I don't think those flaws mater at all, after all. People start concentrating on those when a person is either bland or unpleasant. In other cases flaws become quirks. At least this is how it works for me from my perspective.



Curiphant said:


> Yes but they fall into the functions in that pattern. I wasn't talking about the four letters or I'm confused about that. I'm just impressed that humans just happen to be able to be Se-Ni or Fe-Ti or anyone of the two and one of the two match the other one in the other paired axis and I'm explaining this horribly. Like I'm wondering what's stopping someone from having Si-Ni or being Ni-Fi-Se-Te?


I hoping someone else will sweep and explain it because my vocabulary is trying to bend over itself to come up with a coherent explanation... You need an input and output? Like a computer. If it's perception all in you lose the track of reality, if it's judgement all out you lose the track of internal values. Loops are close enough to study for this.


----------



## Max

NobleRaven said:


> I used to think I was Fe too... until I realized I hate it so deeply when people actually make sacrifices for others just to please them. This is also why I can not hinder around in this thread for too long. Just so much niceness and sorries thrown around, it comes to the depth of suffocating myself. I am not able to adhere to anyone's opinions and feelings unless they are my own and that is how the layers of recognition lay around. *Fe is just too aggressive even if it is aux, even when upset, it wants others to suffer with it as well, *I have 0 interest in that kind of litter. However the truth is I also do not condemn anyone who tries to fall into the lines of other's feelings, every addiction lies into the soul of the perceiver. But I still slightly condemn it because it just seems to me as if *Fe has no special imprint on its own identity, no trace of itself, it only wants to shock people and gather them.*


I bolded the points that are me to a tee. 

Yes, I like doing things for others but I dislike the apologies. There is no need to over apologize. Also, I don't become a slave for others. As much as I like other people, I don't take their shit. No way. You need a balance. I think many of the users here use soft Fe. At an extreme. Politeness. Must in their enneagram.

I can relate to others thoughts and feelings on an interpersonal level. I hold no grudges and enjoy relating to people and getting to know them. Yes. I have my own thoughts and opinions, but I like hearing others' stances. I can see all viewpoints. People in general imterest me and I interest them.

Oh yes. I want people to suffer with me. I want to take it out on them and let them feel what I feel inside and out. I take a lot of things out on people when I am angry. I am one of the most aggressive people I know in all seriousness. I get comments regarding that. 

As for Fi-Fe. Everyone wants to be a special snowflake and have an identity and think we're all unique. But we're all human. The same shit, different person. We are all as bad as each other. Society is a sheep. Even those who think they are special, are still sheep. Even the slavedrivers are sheep. We all have roles in society and we all play parts until the end. We are all playing out the plan until the end. 

Wow. That sounded... bitter lol. But that is my stance on things.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Wait @angelcat didn't you say Captain America is ISFJ


Yes, he is. An XSFJ, at any rate.

I can't speak to @alittlebear in terms of what @hoopla said, so I'll just respond about myself.



hoopla said:


> Si types are the stream a waterfall flows into. The peaceful contrast to a chaotic, toxic world. If a person is not peaceful, nonchalant and soothing, I consider them Je rather than Si doms.


Interesting. Not sure what other people would say about me, in this regard. I can be intense, though, at times.



> I actually think Si types can be seen as very wise, insightful and mature. I get that quite a bit actually. Si-Fe is more serious I think. Fe-Ne/Ne-Fe is more goofy, usually.


Hmm. I've always meandered between the two. I can be incredibly serious, then turn around and be silly.



> @angelcat I've thought about Fe dom for you quite a bit beforehand. I'm not saying you are, but it's possible.
> 
> 1. I'm not entirely convinced your Ti is stronger than your Ne


*goes away to cry*



> 2. You said it yourself... you are directive. Outspoken. Bold. Blunt. I'm not saying 100% of the time, but more than me and @alittlebear. I get the impression that if you were witnessing the throes of injustice, it would be hard for you to hold your tongue. As @alittlbear and I have discussed, it's difficult for us to speak up. We will, but behind the scenes, if that makes sense.[/quote]
> 
> I wish I had more experience with people in general, because then I'd have some sense of whether I'd be the "speak up" type or the "fade into the background" type. Then again, I did take on an entire room of people at the young adult group once, although I'm not one to speak up first. I shy away from being the center of attention and being looked at, but at the same time after awhile I'm fine with it.
> 
> I will say this -- and maybe it's not relevant because it happens online more than anywhere else -- but I've had multiple friends tell me that they were "afraid" to ask for me to be their friend on various social media platforms because they saw me as "very firm on your convictions, and somewhat intimidating." Extroversion? I also tend to ... drift from people without semi-frequent contact. Friends disappearing for two weeks at a time irritate me. A lot.
> 
> [quote]3. As [MENTION=167082]alittlebear said... you juggle *a lot* of projects. A website, 2 blogs, an online magazine, and you've written 2-3 books. You are older than me, so you've had much more experience than I to accomplish these things... but I cannot fathom that. I don't even think I could finish a novel. Either way... I don't think I could sustain the energy to tackle so many different things and share them all with the world in such a manner.


I have a lot of free time, and no social life outside the internet. What else is there to do? LOL And... this will horrify you, but I'm way less active than I used to be. I tend to lose interest in things. But ... yeah, it's more like 7 books. Some of them written in three months or less. Though, I have to FORCE myself to do anything, really. I consider myself unpardonably lazy and a first class procrastinator. But yes, I've always been a "finish it and share it" person, which could speak to Fe-dom. (Hide your writing? WHY? What's the point, if no one is going to read it?)



> 4. Feeling does not necessarily equal emotions... luckily @arkigos covered this better than I can.


Well, that's good. Because I'm an emotional void most of the time. 



> I don't think you're like the biggest socialite there ever was, no. I'm speaking cognitively. Though I will ask, are you being hyperbolic when you say it takes you 3 days of hanging around someone to drain your "batteries" (that metaphor is so cheesy)? Because 3 days... sounds insane to me.
> 
> I was friends with a creative, nerdy ESFJ in grade and middle school. We hung out all the time... once she cooked up the idea to have me spend the night for 3 days. Dude, horrible idea. I was so done after like the second day... and she could of been up for me staying the entire week. I thought I was just an asshole... until I learned I am not.


I get tired of people. But, it seems dependent on who they are. Some people, I get bored with. Others, I can happily talk to for hours at a time. I once had a friend fly out for 2 days and after she left, I was chatting with her on Skype at the airport while she waited for her connecting flight. But yes, I tend to come home after running errands or being around people and just ... collapse. 

So, yeah. No clue, at this point.


----------



## Greyhart

Everyday is like a time travel it just started and now it ended where did it go I don't know I don't notice. Day needs more hours in it. And people need to need less sleep. Half of my life spent in bed doing nothing. This is horrible. I'm so sleepy.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

arkigos said:


> What they could whimsically be thought to represent... or what they absolutely do represent to you? Also, how relatable are these images?
> 
> 
> 
> It is, btw, super awkward to describe myself as 'the same as Einstein'. Or, as I prefer to say it, 'basically Einstein'.
> 
> One ISTJ friend said to me, "So, this system tells you that you are Einstein? No wonder you like it so much."


Images? When I see a representation of something it has nothing to do with them being personal to me. It's all about what the song, the dance, the play, what it all represents. If the play is about Japanese domestic values and humility, I am going to figure out what the director meant when she chose those colors for the birds. If I am watching an African dance for fertility... I will try to avoid thinking of what it means due to my asexual nature... I guess a better example would be if I was watching a cultural dance for the harvest, or nationalism (both which I have little experience or taste for), I would see how the movements related to what the song meant about the harvest or nationalism. What the dance truly represents... not what it represents to me. (I suppose Ni would be about what is personal to them, since it is their personal intuition, and Ne would be looking for outside interpretation, what does the play song dance mean to the director?)


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> @angelcat mentioned touching stuff when she goes shopping for fabric or something like that??? Maybe she can enlighten us.


Half the time, I wander through stores trickling my fingers over clothes; if I like how it feels, I stop and look at it. But yes, I love touching things. Cats. Pillows. Anything I see that I like, I want to touch it.

Pity I can't touch a few actors. I really, really LIKE 'em.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Images? When I see a representation of something it has nothing to do with them being personal to me. It's all about what the song, the dance, the play, what it all represents. If the play is about Japanese domestic values and humility, I am going to figure out what the director meant when she chose those colors for the birds. If I am watching an African dance for fertility... I will try to avoid thinking of what it means due to my asexual nature... I guess a better example would be if I was watching a cultural dance for the harvest, or nationalism (both which I have little experience or taste for), I would see how the movements related to what the song meant about the harvest or nationalism. What the dance truly represents... not what it represents to me. (I suppose Ni would be about what is personal to them, since it is their personal intuition, and Ne would be looking for outside interpretation, what does the play song dance mean to the director?)


I imagine Si would be the personal one (subjective impression about objects). Or am I wrong.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Hmm, no I don't think she is. It's not about gestures representing something. It's like this dress is.. I can't come up with a relevant explanation. The dresses I mean in latino sports dances? Like those
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are made just to look attractive on the dance floor but she scabs some serious weird shit out of it. As for dance moves... I mean like this dip here is his something something passion blah blah and here she it means first love or some sex related etc. Seriously I can't come up with examples without feeling weird about it. I'm just like OK, if you say so.


That still seems obvious to me? I mean... Anyone can see sexual connotations to things or look at a dress and see it as a peacock or whatever it is. (She may not be mistyped, but I do find some of this kind of basic? Not to be unkind. I'm sure your friend does do deeper things given that she's ENFJ, but these things don't seem all that... deep and exclusively Ni to me. I'm sorry if that's rude...)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I imagine Si would be the personal one (subjective impression about objects). Or am I wrong.


A lot of things about Si seem to fit me, but that certainly does not.

At least not in context of how I interpret things. I look for the truth of what was intended, what it truly means (not to me, but what it _is_). We've discussed this on the topic already.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> That still seems obvious to me? I mean... Anyone can see sexual connotations to things or look at a dress and see it as a peacock or whatever it is. (She may not be mistyped, but I do find some of this kind of basic? Not to be unkind. I'm sure your friend does do deeper things given that she's ENFJ, but these things don't seem all that... deep and exclusively Ni to me. I'm sorry if that's rude...)


I agree


----------



## 68097

Just got off the phone with "my" INTJ friend.

One comment: "When I heard her voice, I heard Death in it. She assured me nothing was wrong, but she was lying. She said nothing about leaving her current situation. I made arrangements for her to be taken care of _when_ she turned up while I was gone. When I got back from my trip, she was there."


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> (I suppose Ni would be about what is personal to them, since it is their personal intuition, and Ne would be looking for outside interpretation, what does the play song dance mean to the director?)


That's right, I think? Ugh, I wish I could give you goo example of my friends "I'm so high tbh" statements. She is a complete actress/artist. Infuses things with weirdass out of nowhere meanings but also into the razzle dazzle and public admiration (a lot of later one). Though I'm not sure that I mysefl go to "What does it mean to director/artist/musician". I'm actually often disappointed when I find out what artists meant with their work because I came up with something more interesting and it's often some personal bullcrap. "This is about my hard times" or something along the lines of that. I prefer it to be a story about dragons and conquest than a domestic dispute.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> That's right, I think? Ugh, I wish I could give you goo example of my friends "I'm so high tbh" statements. She is a complete actress/artist. Infuses things with weirdass out of nowhere meanings but also into the razzle dazzle and public admiration (a lot of later one). Though I'm not sure that I mysefl go to "What does it mean to director/artist/musician". I'm actually often disappointed when I find out what artists meant with their work because I came up with something more interesting and it's often some personal bullcrap. "This is about my hard times" or something along the lines of that. I prefer it to be a story about dragons and conquest than a domestic dispute.


Hmm. I'm curious which is supposed to be which because @shinynotshiny said the opposite.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Just got off the phone with "my" INTJ friend.
> 
> One comment: "When I heard her voice, I heard Death in it. She assured me nothing was wrong, but she was lying. She said nothing about leaving her current situation. I made arrangements for her to be taken care of _when_ she turned up while I was gone. When I got back from my trip, she was there."


Okay, see, I don't understand what you're trying to point out here because it sounds entirely normal to me. Your friend said this? Or is it about her?


----------



## Max

Fuck this.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> I will say this -- and maybe it's not relevant because it happens online more than anywhere else -- but I've had multiple friends tell me that they were "afraid" to ask for me to be their friend on various social media platforms because they saw me as "very firm on your convictions, and somewhat intimidating." Extroversion? I also tend to ... drift from people without semi-frequent contact. Friends disappearing for two weeks at a time irritate me. A lot.


I actually disappear from people a lot... my friend from grade school I told you about.... we had thing nasty fight and I refused to talk to her for almost a year... and when I did, it was entirely out of guilt for how much I had wronged her. In fact... I rarely thought about inviting friends over. It took me like a year of meeting her to gather the idea of giving her my number... quite strange. Drifting away from people almost doesn't bother me... I like to socialize, but I'm weird about it I guess.

Well actually a lie. The falling out with my ESFJ friend was horrible... I tried to win her back... I could not. So I don't like to drift away... I'd say sometimes I take breaks from people. I suck.



angelcat said:


> I have a lot of free time, and no social life outside the internet. What else is there to do? LOL And... this will horrify you, but I'm way less active than I used to be. I tend to lose interest in things. But ... yeah, it's more like 7 books. Some of them written in three months or less. Though, I have to FORCE myself to do anything, really. I consider myself unpardonably lazy and a first class procrastinator. But yes, I've always been a "finish it and share it" person, which could speak to Fe-dom. (Hide your writing? WHY? What's the point, if no one is going to read it?)


That is interesting. Sometimes I do enjoy sharing poetry and gaining feedback or interpretations, but a lot of my writing is private. Sometimes it's just the sake of it that interests me... sometimes I write things I could never tell people, but wish I had the guts to.




angelcat said:


> I get tired of people. But, it seems dependent on who they are. Some people, I get bored with. Others, I can happily talk to for hours at a time. I once had a friend fly out for 2 days and after she left, I was chatting with her on Skype at the airport while she waited for her connecting flight. But yes, I tend to come home after running errands or being around people and just ... collapse.


My mother does the same thing actually, and she's a Je dom. I'm not saying that makes you a Je dom, but that it doesn't rule out the possibility.



angelcat said:


> So, yeah. No clue, at this point.


I think it's up for you to decide. I could, again, see either way.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Hmm. I'm curious which is supposed to be which because @_shinynotshiny_ said the opposite.


Pulling things out of the air, possibly wrong: Every Halloween Josie carves pumpkins with her grandma. When her grandma passes, Josie can't help remembering her grandma whenever she sees a pumpkin, and so pumpkins represent love and kindness and overall gentle feelings. She attaches a personal meaning to pumpkins.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> That still seems obvious to me? I mean... Anyone can see sexual connotations to things or look at a dress and see it as a peacock or whatever it is. (She may not be mistyped, but I do find some of this kind of basic? Not to be unkind. I'm sure your friend does do deeper things given that she's ENFJ, but these things don't seem all that... deep and exclusively Ni to me. I'm sorry if that's rude...)


Not like that. Not like physical? I haven't spoken to her face to face for a some time. "That dress means pain of a first fall". It's a dress made of synthetic stretchy material. With gems on it. Because the color looks good on the dancer and gems sparkle when she moves. IDK If that does anything to the judges. Probably just for a show for public. Or maybe she got it from some sponsor designer to promote them. I can look at it and say it looks like swan. Or that white with red one looks like a period pad. But what she says it not physically related as I see it? IDK what's she's say about the period pad one. OK, I came up with it symbolizing deflowering because blood on white sheets. Still not the same.



shinynotshiny said:


> Pulling things out of the air, possibly wrong: Every Halloween Josie carves pumpkins with her grandma. When her grandma passes, Josie can't help remembering her grandma whenever she sees a pumpkin, and so pumpkins represent love and kindness and overall gentle feelings. She attaches a personal meaning to pumpkins.


That seems right to me?


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Okay, see, I don't understand what you're trying to point out here because it sounds entirely normal to me. Your friend said this? Or is it about her?


My friend said this about the person he was talking to. In other words, when he heard her voice, he saw a symbol of Death / HEARD Death in her voice -- the death of her soul, the loss of her passion for life, even though she sounded normal and pretended nothing was wrong. He then realized she would need to leave that situation, and that she would indeed leave, so he prepared for her arrival in his absence (this was around 9/11 and he flew up to NYC to work on the streets). She did not contact him, or tell him that she was coming, but he knew she would, so he made the arrangements in advance. When he got back from NYC, she was there, taking advantage of the arrangements he'd made for her.

When she left three months later, he knew things about her that she had not told him. He knew the reason she was running away and where it would lead. And he was right.

Ni gets a reputation for being mystical, and often it isn't -- but with this particular Ni user, it is. He intuits things he has no foreknowledge of, based on no evidence in the environment, about other people that are quite often profoundly accurate, and is forever pondering them.

We watched "Selma" together on the phone and at one point, he said: "MLK was a Ni user, wasn't he?"

Bear in mind, he's skeptical of Jung in general, and thinks it's all bogus -- but one particular speech and mastermind method of approaching a situation with foreknowledge and planning resonated with him, because it's what he does. 

There's a BIG difference between Si/Ne and Ni/Se. And it runs into more than just lower Se problems (which, he had growing up -- very reckless child) straight into futuristic "knowings." Like, he knows he is dying and it will probably be soon, and he's at peace with it. Every time I talk to him, I have to repress my Si/Ne and trust that he knows what he's saying, because everything in me screams against such rigid absolutes and conclusions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Pulling things out of the air, possibly wrong: Every Halloween Josie carves pumpkins with her grandma. When her grandma passes, Josie can't help remembering her grandma whenever she sees a pumpkin, and so pumpkins represent love and kindness and overall gentle feelings. She attaches a personal meaning to pumpkins.


I _most certainly_ don't do that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Not like that. Not like physical? I haven't spoken to her face to face for a some time. "That dress means pain of a first fall". It's a dress made of synthetic stretchy material. With gems on it. Because the color looks good on the dancer and gems sparkle when she moves. IDK If that does anything to the judges. Probably just for a show for public. Or maybe she got it from some sponsor designer to promote them. I can look at it and say it looks like swan. Or that white with red one looks like a period pad. But what she says it not physically related as I see it? IDK what's she's say about the period pad one. OK, I came up with it symbolizing deflowering because blood on white sheets. Still not the same.
> 
> 
> That seems right to me?


I hope it doesn't seem like I'm being stubborn... I honestly do what your friend does. Those connections. They seem obvious to me.. They are my world.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> My friend said this about the person he was talking to. In other words, when he heard her voice, he saw a symbol of Death / HEARD Death in her voice -- the death of her soul, the loss of her passion for life, even though she sounded normal and pretended nothing was wrong. He then realized she would need to leave that situation, and that she would indeed leave, so he prepared for her arrival in his absence (this was around 9/11 and he flew up to NYC to work on the streets). She did not contact him, or tell him that she was coming, but he knew she would, so he made the arrangements in advance. When he got back from NYC, she was there, taking advantage of the arrangements he'd made for her.
> 
> When she left three months later, he knew things about her that she had not told him. He knew the reason she was running away and where it would lead. And he was right.
> 
> Ni gets a reputation for being mystical, and often it isn't -- but with this particular Ni user, it is. He intuits things he has no foreknowledge of, based on no evidence in the environment, about other people that are quite often profoundly accurate, and is forever pondering them.
> 
> We watched "Selma" together on the phone and at one point, he said: "MLK was a Ni user, wasn't he?"
> 
> Bear in mind, he's skeptical of Jung in general, and thinks it's all bogus -- but one particular speech and mastermind method of approaching a situation with foreknowledge and planning resonated with him, because it's what he does.
> 
> There's a BIG difference between Si/Ne and Ni/Se. And it runs into more than just lower Se problems (which, he had growing up -- very reckless child) straight into futuristic "knowings." Like, he knows he is dying and it will probably be soon, and he's at peace with it. Every time I talk to him, I have to repress my Si/Ne and trust that he knows what he's saying, because everything in me screams against such rigid absolutes and conclusions.


I just don't see it as mysticism. I see it as common sense and paying attention to the people or things around you. Without getting personal, I had a similar experience with my grandmother last year. No one would believe she was experiencing a very low period in her life, but I knew by looking at her that her spirit was broken. I had to work at convincing my family she needed help and thankfully I did it on time.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I bolded the points that are me to a tee.
> 
> Yes, I like doing things for others but I dislike the apologies. There is no need to over apologize. Also, I don't become a slave for others. As much as I like other people, I don't take their shit. No way. You need a balance. I think many of the users here use soft Fe. At an extreme. Politeness. Must in their enneagram.
> 
> I can relate to others thoughts and feelings on an interpersonal level. I hold no grudges and enjoy relating to people and getting to know them. Yes. I have my own thoughts and opinions, but I like hearing others' stances. I can see all viewpoints. People in general imterest me and I interest them.
> 
> Oh yes. I want people to suffer with me. I want to take it out on them and let them feel what I feel inside and out. I take a lot of things out on people when I am angry. I am one of the most aggressive people I know in all seriousness. I get comments regarding that.
> 
> As for Fi-Fe. Everyone wants to be a special snowflake and have an identity and think we're all unique. But we're all human. The same shit, different person. We are all as bad as each other. Society is a sheep. Even those who think they are special, are still sheep. Even the slavedrivers are sheep. We all have roles in society and we all play parts until the end. We are all playing out the plan until the end.
> 
> Wow. That sounded... bitter lol. But that is my stance on things.


... That actually could be low Fe attitude, huh. Not the FJ. I don't really know what's ExTJ stances on this sort of stuff.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> I just don't see it as mysticism. I see it as common sense and paying attention to the people or things around you. Without getting personal, I had a similar experience with my grandmother last year. No one would believe she was experiencing a very low period in her life, but I knew by looking at her that her spirit was broken. I had to work at convincing my family she needed help and thankfully I did it on time.


Then you better change your type back to Ni-dom.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I _most certainly_ don't do that.


If my pumpkin example is Si, then you are closer to your answer.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Then you better change your type back to Ni-dom.


Not until @hoopla is convinced of Ni or Si :ninja:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

And this is what I need explained. A lot of things do match with Si, as I have said, but it am still searching for universal truth. My whole life at the moment is figuring out the intangible, indescribable truth of the world, the truth that I have been seeking to explain and find since I was very small. As I've said before, my truths of the world are gathered in my head like unbound chromatin, but they come out and synthesize when I need them to... Again, perhaps this is Si, but I'm not relating at all to having something represent something because it represented something to someone else... I'm just really looking for the truth of the world. No strings attached about what it meant to my family members, my friends, or people I know. I just want to know that is the True Truth, and I'm on a mission to discover it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> If my pumpkin example is Si, then you are closer to your answer.


But I wonder if that's truly Si? I don't know, that seems so simplistic.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> ... That actually could be low Fe attitude, huh. Not the FJ. I don't really know what's ExTJ stances on this sort of stuff.


Either low Fe or super unhealthy upper Fe. Pissed off Fe xD


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Not until @hoopla is convinced of Ni or Si :ninja:


No. I'm not the expert people paint me as... I'm still learning. Decide on your own volition, and take everything I say with a grain of salt.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> But I wonder if that's truly Si? I don't know, that seems so simplistic.


Yes, it is, but Si doesn't have to be simplistic. 

Someone will have to speak up and say if it's Si or not.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> No. I'm not the expert people paint me as... I'm still learning. Decide on your own volition, and take everything I say with a grain of salt.


I want to see what you see and think about it from that angle.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I hope it doesn't seem like I'm being stubborn... I honestly do what your friend does. Those connections. They seem obvious to me.. They are my world.


Wait. I'm lost what are we arguing about? If we are arguing. As I said I don't get my friends weird ass interpretations which is how I don't think she is ESFJ. Fe dom as fuck but not Ne. As opposed to my mother whom I _get_ but feel exasperated due to penchant to get stuck on rehearsing needless details, some panicky pessimism and stubbornness when it comes to accepting my advices in non-tech related things... That wasn't so much of type related as with my complaints about my parent. I can "trace" the origjn of Si interpretation of I pester SJ family/friend long enough but with Ni it's like woop! *pulls bunny out of metaphorical hat*. Anyway, what I say is that I get Ne "this cloud looks like bunny! ... and not like a maniac with the hook for a hand" and don't get the Ni statements of "this is that" because when I start asking why I can't get definite answer and can't find definite origin. And I like it!

I'm not sure how this like of conversation started... I think @arkigos said about Ni being "weird" with it's interpretations and I said it's fun to watch?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Yes, it is, but Si doesn't have to be simplistic.
> 
> Someone will have to speak up and say if it's Si or not.


I'm not saying that Si is simplistic, just that I think that could be an oversimplification of Si. I know my mother does that, I know her sisters do that, but I don't. My mom's whole world seems to be about the past (which I know is a misconception about Si... but it is true for her). She gets a certain milkshake because her mother got them. She listens to songs on the radio and tells us how she used to skate to them. The sweetest, dearest thing for her is riding by her old house. I have none of that. When I listen to songs, I want to better understand human nature (and what the song says about society). When I drink a smoothie (I hate milkshakes), it's because I want to taste a smoothie. And I hate riding my my old house and neighborhood... even before I had PTSD, it just seemed useless and sad to me. We're not there now, we've moved on, so why look back? If just depresses me. 

Then again, I mean, @angelcat does not like memories either I believe?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> And this is what I need explained. A lot of things do match with Si, as I have said, but it am still searching for universal truth. *My whole life at the moment is figuring out the intangible, indescribable truth of the world, the truth that I have been seeking to explain and find since I was very small.* As I've said before, my truths of the world are gathered in my head like unbound chromatin, but they come out and synthesize when I need them to... Again, perhaps this is Si, but I'm not relating at all to having something represent something because it represented something to someone else... I'm just really looking for the truth of the world. No strings attached about what it meant to my family members, my friends, or people I know. I just want to know that is the True Truth, and I'm on a mission to discover it.


You my friend might actually be INFJ then? That sounds like led by it rather than use as creative function.


----------



## orbit

Sorry I disappeared. What I meant is that is there proof there are only sixteen types?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart no, I don't think we are arguing! I just say I'm not trying to be stubborn because I know a lot of people see me as ISFJ now but there are certain things (like this) that I know I am more Ni than Si about. (At least regarding how we understand Ni and Si through these examples.) Like I relate to your ENFJ friend almost completely on this matter. (I was not questioning her type, but rather questioning how Ni what she does is... because I do the same thing and I'm not convinced I am an NJ.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> You my friend might actually be INFJ then? That sounds like led by it rather than use as creative function.


I'm not an INFJ. My Ni would be much more apparent if I was, and the majority of the most knowledgable typers on here do not view me as using Ni at all.


----------



## Max

There are too many stereotypes surrounding MBTI, and too many people basing the functions off what they see in certain people. People use the functions different and it gets confusing. And don't forget about Enneagram also. A 2 of one type is gonna have completely different attitudes than an 8 or 4 of that type. And functional health also. Are we really accounting for every factor?


----------



## Greyhart

I wonder if those Si behavior some of you picking up is @alittlebear 's many mental health issues. And I have those too so don't feel bad about it, I'm not being mean. But you know, like me walking around disinfecting things with extremely potent and toxic substance can be taken as high Si because of this "OCD" association. Or couple years ago my anxiety was so bad I would come out of my house only about 3-4 times A YEAR and come back crying. That could go like introversion. I still get shaky when I need to meet new people because I am worried of how they'll see me. Am I too weird? Too twitchy? Too annoying? And I still think "You can just not go, lock yourself in the house and don't go anywhere ever again."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Sorry I disappeared. What I meant is that is there proof there are only sixteen types?


Curiphant is pretty confused by this. I'm going to try to answer her privately, but any other insight into this would be appreciated (I'm sure).


----------



## fair phantom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> There are too many stereotypes surrounding MBTI, and too many people basing the functions off what they see in certain people. People use the functions different and it gets confusing. And don't forget about Enneagram also. A 2 of one type is gonna have completely different attitudes than an 8 or 4 of that type. And functional health also. Are we really accounting for every factor?


Yeah Enneagram makes everyrthing more complicated. I'm currently thinking my father is an ESTP, but I'm even more confident that he is a 9w1, which...seems to go against all laws of nature. And yet it seems to fit, even though it means he is rather unlike the common conception of ESTP.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I'm not saying that Si is simplistic, just that I think that could be an oversimplification of Si. I know my mother does that, I know her sisters do that, but I don't. My mom's whole world seems to be about the past (which I know is a misconception about Si... but it is true for her). She gets a certain milkshake because her mother got them. She listens to songs on the radio and tells us how she used to skate to them. The sweetest, dearest thing for her is riding by her old house. I have none of that. When I listen to songs, I want to better understand human nature (and what the song says about society). When I drink a smoothie (I hate milkshakes), it's because I want to taste a smoothie. And I hate riding my my old house and neighborhood... even before I had PTSD, it just seemed useless and sad to me. We're not there now, we've moved on, so why look back? If just depresses me.
> 
> Then again, I mean, @angelcat does not like memories either I believe?


I do none of that. Sounds boring. I am really not interested in sharing recollections of the past with anyone, since I almost never think about it except in terms of regret and bafflement (why did that happen???). I went to a camp last year for a day visit that I'd gone to as a kid. Sure, I had some memories return as a result, but I had no sentimental attachment to the place. I think they ought to shut it down, since it's nowhere near as successful as it once was. On occasion, I wander into the past, full of doubt, and snap myself out of it by saying, "No, you made this choice, live with it." 

I just ... this whole thing about Si-doms living inside their memories, and treasuring them, is so foreign to me, and I'm not sure if that means I'm NOT a Si-dom, or if it means that description is rot. Why would you want to do the same things all the time? Go the same places every year? If I've gone once, I know the routine, I've seen it, why revisit it unless I totally love it? 

The ONLY thing like this in my life comes from my old passions, yet I can never entirely recapture them once I've exhausted them. I'll go back to an old fandom and love watching or reading it all over again, but then it's over and I want something new. 

I get over things fast. Friendship ends? I'm over it. Pet dies? I cry, and then go get a new pet. Grandparent dies? I cry, and get over it, because death happens. It's awful, it leaves a hole in my heart, but why sit around wishing you could have back something you can't have back? They are gone. No wallowing. No keeping their stuff for sentimental reasons. Pack it up, and move it out, so that you can cease wallowing in the pain of them not being there.

I've seen Si-dom/auxes who are very much about the past, and the history of things, and talking about their kids' childhoods, and being eager for small talk, and dwelling in memories and disliking change. 

I'm just not one of them.

Oh, I should also mention that my memory is crap. I have, literally, no memories from when I was a kid, except sporadic flashes here and there, like the dusty reflection of a broken mirror in an old house. Time sort of blends together for me, and I don't remember how old I was when something happened or even care.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I wonder if those Si behavior some of you picking up is @_alittlebear_ 's many mental health issues. And I have those too so don't feel bad about it, I'm not being mean. But you know, like me walking around disinfecting things with extremely potent and toxic substance can be taken as high Si because of this "OCD" association. Or couple years ago my anxiety was so bad I would come out of my house only about 3-4 times A YEAR and come back crying. That could go like introversion. I still get shaky when I need to meet new people because I am worried of how they'll see me. Am I too weird? Too twitchy? Too annoying? And I still think "You can just not go, lock yourself in the house and don't go anywhere ever again."


I agree. I've mentioned this before in my own typing threads, specifically when it comes to things like dwelling on memories or issues that hurt you, that OCD thing you talk about, wanting to stay safe when you feel low, etc.


----------



## Max

fair phantom said:


> Yeah Enneagram makes everyrthing more complicated. I'm currently thinking my father is an ESTP, but I'm even more confident that he is a 9w1, which...seems to go against all laws of nature. And yet it seems to fit, even though it means he is rather unlike the common conception of ESTP.


Speaking of common misconceptions, everyone assumes all FJs are these fluffy do gooders. What about the Enneagram 7s or 8s? They are quite the opposite of the stereotypes.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I'm not an INFJ. My Ni would be much more apparent if I was, and the majority of the most knowledgable typers on here do not view me as using Ni at all.


OKe  I am into the systems _hella_ lot too but I'm pretty sure I am not Ti dom.



alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart no, I don't think we are arguing! I just say I'm not trying to be stubborn because I know a lot of people see me as ISFJ now but there are certain things (like this) that I know I am more Ni than Si about. (At least regarding how we understand Ni and Si through these examples.) Like I relate to your ENFJ friend almost completely on this matter. (I was not questioning her type, but rather questioning how Ni what she does is... because I do the same thing and I'm not convinced I am an NJ.)


The thing with Si interpretations is my ISFJ friend comes up with vivid beautiful ideas but when we start talking about why and how we can get to the bottom of it. It's similar to me. For example I _hate_ like really _hate_ naming things. And characters. Stressful. So many if not all of my characters have some reference to culture (pop or not). The Greyhart chain of though, remember? Seems like unrelated but when you start dissecting it, it has my favorite tea, Magneto, deers that I like because of childhood stories, and my OC in it.  Or like names of my GW2 chars I could explain you how each is a reference. Fern Fiore? Her hair reminded me of fern (even though it's banana leaves 100%) and than instantly went to one of my favorite authors Nikolai Gogol and one of his stories about flowering fern. So Fiore = flower on Italian... 

This had a point! And the point is Si can be traced back. Ni just pulls it out of the hat. Hat is probably leading into the Warp tbh.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> There are too many stereotypes surrounding MBTI, and too many people basing the functions off what they see in certain people (1). People use the functions different and it gets confusing. (2)And don't forget about Enneagram also. A 2 of one type is gonna have completely different attitudes than an 8 or 4 of that type. And functional health also. (3)Are we really accounting for every factor?


(1)Theory is born from observation so of course.
(2) Still similar when you dig past outward behavior and seek motivations.
(3) Trying to. Is it possible to account for everything? Probably not but trying is fun.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I wonder if those Si behavior some of you picking up is @alittlebear 's many mental health issues. And I have those too so don't feel bad about it, I'm not being mean. But you know, like me walking around disinfecting things with extremely potent and toxic substance can be taken as high Si because of this "OCD" association. Or couple years ago my anxiety was so bad I would come out of my house only about 3-4 times A YEAR and come back crying. That could go like introversion. I still get shaky when I need to meet new people because I am worried of how they'll see me. Am I too weird? Too twitchy? Too annoying? And I still think "You can just not go, lock yourself in the house and don't go anywhere ever again."


Well... I don't want to act as if... I do not experience that. I am socially anxious, we know that from my timidity, my constant apologizing, my inability to not use a high pitched, appeasing voice (especially with strangers), but I am not typically anxious in the sense that I lock myself in. I'm always out. I love being out. I love going for car rides. Yesterday I went seven different places unexpectedly with my dad and loved it. I have no problem approaching other people, and I will certainly talk their heads off if they are inclined to listen. My social anxiety is not as it is typically portrayed by media and understood by society. I am out and about. I am very sociable. I am incredibly friendly. I just worry too much about what people think of me, and if am more hesitant to rub against people in any way because of that. 

I actually read a post on this... I think she's a person in the psych field, I read her post on Tumblr about how an INFJ would experience anxiety. And I was. Oh. That's me. (I excused this though, since... I mean? It was so simplistic, just saying that "an INFJ with anxiety will feel scared for their future, be convinced that the future is dark and there is no other path, and be cautious of how the decisions they make will impact the long term future (or something like that, I could provide a link)... And I go "lol okay? But that's what anxiety is to everyone, isn't it?" 

I do think that PTSD would obviously make me more Si-inclined, but no one is even bringing up references to past or anything that seems trauma-based to me to defend my having Si. 

One thing is I might not sound like an NFJ because I have been taught not to be - my mom hates anything that she doesn't understand, and if I have high intuition I think it could have crumbled and hidden itself deeply (my mom doesn't even like the word "proper," I don't know why but she pitches a fit if I accidentally use it, I use it when I'm not with her but I just cut it out when I'm with her) - but still I'm not sure if that's really the case. Am I just an Ni user, or are there a crap load of misunderstandings about Si and Ni that are keeping me from really knowing what I am (in this case, an ISFJ?)


----------



## Greyhart

@alittlebear my was untreated and undiagnosed for over 10 years and run along with depression, panic attacks and phobias so it kept getting worse and worse because I thought if I wait it out maybe my "schizophrenia" (as I thought it is) would fade to manageable levels at some point. I didn't actually know what's up with me until I was 21.. and and half. Err, what I mean it that mine was worse because I hid it and let it rule me for long years.


----------



## Darkbloom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Speaking of common misconceptions, everyone assumes all FJs are these fluffy do gooders. What about the Enneagram 7s or 8s? They are quite the opposite of the stereotypes.


Tbh I'm probably 2,or some other image type,and I'm far from fluffy lol.Well,I _can_ be fluffy too,but you gotta know how to make me fluffy,then I'm super fluffy :kitteh:

Wouldn't wanna meet a Fe dom 8 though XD

Btw you still seem Te though


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> (1)Theory is born from observation so of course.
> (2) Still similar when you dig past outward behavior and seek motivations.
> (3) Trying to. Is it possible to account for everything? Probably not but trying is fun.





Greyhart said:


> @alittlebear my was untreated and undiagnosed for over 10 years and run along with depression, panic attacks and phobias so it kept getting worse and worse because I thought if I wait it out maybe my "schizophrenia" (as I thought it is) would fade to manageable levels at some point. I didn't actually know what's up with me until I was 21.. and and half. Err, what I mean it that mine was worse because I hid it and let it rule me for long years.


Oh no... I was trying to be respectful, and I'm sorry you had your experiences. I've had these same anxiety symptoms at least since I was five (so fourteen years), but for me I think it's just... different. My psych is convinced I have GAD and I agree with her and show the symptoms of it pretty obviously (they say) but I think I experience it sort of differently from the GAD norm is all. I'm sorry if I was seeming dismissive of your experiences; that was not my intent at all.


----------



## Max

Living dead said:


> Tbh I'm probably 2,or some other image type,and I'm far from fluffy lol.Well,I _can_ be fluffy too,but you gotta know how to make me fluffy,then I'm super fluffy :kitteh:
> 
> Wouldn't wanna meet a Fe dom 8 though XD
> 
> Btw you still seem Te though


I dunno, Pal. 

I know my Tritype is 784. That is me down to a tee. 

7w8 8w7 4w5.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Fern said:


> This thread has 33,000+ views. That's insane
> 
> 
> Yes, Ni. You gots it. Dominant Fe? Check.
> 
> Here is your ENFJ jacket.


This is definitely not what I expected when I got on today. I went to bed convinced I was an ISFJ. May I ask where you see my Ni (not an exhausted analysis, but just some things)? Yesterday and the day before a few members mentioned that it seemed I didn't have any, so I'm interested in what you see as an Ni user that they are not seeing as Ni. 

And thank you for dropping by. Yes, the thread is ridiculous.


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> I think whether Si shows more in form you describe or not depends more on actual "personality",like enneagram and similar.My definitely *Si dom friend and grandma aren't nostalgic or anything similar*,they are very practical,down to earth people who don't like getting emotional,they can empathize and want to help but it kills their inner peace and they would rather not think about anything of personal nature,they just like going with their peaceful everyday lives.They like to think and daydream,but in my experience not about things that hit too close to home.
> *But my ESFJ grandma constantly looks at photos,goes "Remember that time when..."* ,wants to revisit places,cries after people who died and can just go on and on about how everything was great but mostly about how she was great and wonderful (from her personal qualities and accomplishments to what she did for other people) and everyone else was a huge disappointment.Have't been talking to her in years.But that's a whole different story I guess XD
> Obviously,she's not healthy but besides not being healthy there's a big differece between her and those ISFJs.
> But I'm sure there's also less dramatic ESFJs and more dramatic ISFJs,it doesn't have to be just dominant function.
> 
> 
> I can kinda relate to "I can live in my memories/imagination",but not really,I always somehow try to force them outside myself I guess and make them into present reality,nothing is worth anything when it's just inside my head,someone has to live with me inside my imagination
> Can you relate to that?


This funny, because my ISFJ friend and ISTJ dad are not nostalgic either on the other hand ESFJ mom "Let me tell you this story you've heard 10000 times already... ". This might be just because she is chatty and just talks anything that pops into her head.


----------



## Greyhart

Are we still on @alittlebear 's type? It's the person who seriously said this


> Like I actually told Curious Elephant the other day (yesterday) that I could see her as not an ENTP because ENTPs are sort of... hard, and they have like a little bit of drop space between their balloons I guess and their hard side, but their hard side is right there, and it's kind of just... pale, I guess. It's blunt. When you run into it, you run into it. And then I said to my friend that I did not see that in her. She also hard a hard side, but it was much deeper buried, a little darker, and covered by bubbles (almost). She's a lot more sweet for longer extensions of time, but when you hit the hard side of her... you hit it hard, with is increased because you've been floundering so long through her bubbly-ness.





> ENTPs... it's a pretty solid rock. A little fluffy, not a cloud, but like... liquid almost, for some reason I want to say pink but not in a feminine way...
> 
> With INTPs, though. Thought clouds. Thought clouds, a bit of a drop, then you first hit a spear surrounded by barbed wire. That is their hard side. They can take crap, talk about ideas, then... Drop. It's hard to put into words what the "drop" is but I see it a lot.


What Si-Ne?!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Are we still on @alittlebear 's type? It's the person who seriously said this
> 
> 
> What Si-Ne?!


I think that is seen as Ne. And if that's Ne, I can accept that... but I don't think it is Ne. I relate to Intuition, but not the Ne descriptions or even what it is. Could be I am not understanding Ne, but if I am ISFJ I'll probably be pestering @angelcat for more info on how ISFJs' Ne works.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I think that is seen as Ne. And if that's Ne, I can accept that... but I don't think it is Ne. I relate to Intuition, but not the Ne descriptions or even what it is. Could be I am not understanding Ne, but if I am ISFJ I'll probably be pestering @angelcat for more info on how ISFJs' Ne works.


I hella don't see it as Ne or Si. I can decipher that in my own way but I can't see that happening from Si-Ne perspective unless you have an unhealthy attachment to bubbles and oily stones.

The way I see SFJ's Ne working is as conscious "I'm turning my imagination ON right now, YEAAAH!". At least this is a source of "I don't get you!" proverbial conflict between my me and my SFJ close ones.

I think I used proverbial in a wrong way there.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I hella don't see it as Ne or Si. I can decipher that in my own way but I can't see that happening from Si-Ne perspective unless you have an unhealthy attachment to bubbles and oily stones.


My entire home is filled with objects that seem like "bubbles" to me. I'm trying to convince my mom to let me use to guest bedroom just so I can get more of them. 

No. I don't experience fixations in that way. Those are just the words that can best describe how I understand the "hardness" of those types. 

It happened again with @Curiphant yesterday. I was trying to think of a book character's name, and I went, "He's the brick," and Curiphant went, "Brick? What?"


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Pulling things out of the air, possibly wrong: Every Halloween Josie carves pumpkins with her grandma. When her grandma passes, Josie can't help remembering her grandma whenever she sees a pumpkin, and so pumpkins represent love and kindness and overall gentle feelings. She attaches a personal meaning to pumpkins.


I think you have the right idea I don't necessarily consider this Si... it's stripping the sensory elements imo, and discovering what is represented beyond a narrow scope, what means beyond the grandmother and the pumpkins. Corrections would be grand.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

NobleRaven said:


> I know I come uninvited but those who doubt my type are free to come around: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/556018-you-know-you-want.html
> 
> And I am posting this here because you guys started it. You guys are the primary focus.


This is what makes me think Fe.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> I think you have the right idea I don't necessarily consider this Si... it's stripping the sensory elements imo, and discovering what is represented beyond a narrow scope, what means beyond the grandmother and the pumpkins. Corrections would be grand.


How is what you're describing different from Ni? (I am not arguing that you are not describing Si, but what would Ni do instead?)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> How is what you're describing different from Ni? (I am not arguing that you are not describing Si, but what would Ni do instead?)


I was implying that @shinynotshiny's post is not reflecting Si. Maybe Ni. I could be misinterpreting what she meant by "representation" though.


----------



## Greyhart

You only brought up the second quote with more "tangible" explanation after *I* asked this to clarify the way you see it


Greyhart said:


> So what you means with that metaphor that ENTPs have a hard core that is however doesn't hit too hard and that the "soft bubbles" of Fe surrounding it have spaces between them so Ti always glimmers there? And FPs are like bubbles bubbles bubbles TITANIUM CORE WITH EDGES OF SOME SHIT?


^by bringing more tangible TITANIUM CORE metaphor.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> @alittlebear, you're thinking of 11/Matt Smith... my favorite Doctor. Total ENTP. I wuv him.
> 
> Yes, your extroverted functions are what the world sees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a perfect example of a fictional ESFJ -- Monroe, on Grimm. Look at all the Fe/Si/Ne at play just in this one clip. Fe - goes way overboard, is warm, and likable, and funny. Si is LOOK AT ALL THE HISTORY, MAN. I do this every year! It's great! And Ne goes down little side trails. He's fabulous.
> 
> Nick is an ISTP, btw. You do this every year? Overboard much?
> 
> Hmm, ISFJ for comparison. Rory Gilmore? I'll let you look her up.
> 
> Where Monroe is very engaging of his environment, she's always in a book.
> 
> (Doesn't really clear matters up for me, since I'm somewhere in-between Monroe and Rory. Heh.)


Watched a few Rory Gilmore clips. She is absolutely wonderful... but, she's actually harder than me. The first clip you get if her is with the reverend discussing virginity, and... gosh, I would be smiling a lot more even through his misogynistic comments and finding some way to weave into what he wanted to hear from me, being a lot more engaged and enthusiastic as well. In general, I think I have more subtle energy and personalized focus on a person than she appears to. In a few clips she was hesitant (like at the table before siting in the first clip), and I relate to that, but her general energy is something I don't relate to. 

It was different with the Grimm clip. I can't tell if I would do a haunted house like that every year. I can say I agree with his friend about the torture device. I appreciate historic artifacts for education and academic purposes, but there's certainly no use in bringing one to someone's house. Get a replica. 

(Sorry it took me so long to respond. I was absolutely exhausted yesterday.)


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I was implying that @_shinynotshiny_'s post is not reflecting Si. Maybe Ni. I could be misinterpreting what she meant by "representation" though.


I have no idea at this point.


----------



## AdInfinitum

hoopla said:


> This is what makes me think Fe.


Or maybe just curious, I have been searching for a while. I still don't feel people should adhere to social norms, I want to see them free and I will continue feeling that. However you are allowed to doubt.


----------



## Immolate




----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Watched a few Rory Gilmore clips. She is absolutely wonderful... but, she's actually harder than me. The first clip you get if her is with the reverend discussing virginity, and... gosh, I would be smiling a lot more even through his misogynistic comments and finding some way to weave into what he wanted to hear from me, being a lot more engaged and enthusiastic as well. In general, I think I have more subtle energy and personalized focus on a person than she appears to. In a few clips she was hesitant (like at the table before siting in the first clip), and I relate to that, but her general energy is something I don't relate to.
> 
> It was different with the Grimm clip. I can't tell if I would do a haunted house like that every year. I can say I agree with his friend about the torture device. I appreciate historic artifacts for education and academic purposes, but there's certainly no use in bringing one to someone's house. Get a replica.
> 
> (Sorry it took me so long to respond. I was absolutely exhausted yesterday.)


I think you're a Fe-dom. Everything you say relates in some way back to not only how you feel, but also a general consensus of what is acceptable. I also think you're ENFJ, but that's rather beside the point. 

How an actress appears on screen is entirely the actress' choice -- I never look at "energy" or "enthusiasm" when seeing their type so much as motivations and cognitive approaches through the script. But I HAVE run into these types of discussions before -- with NFJs. Energy and actress, and character, become one and the same in their mind. Inseparable. It's as if the character doesn't exist, but the character becomes a symbol of whatever type they believe the character represents. 

Having a real weapon as part of a Halloween display would never cross my mind within the narrative; I just laugh and say, "Monroe is so awesome, he's so much fun, look how cute he is in wanting his Halloween stuff authentic." He does the same thing for Christmas, by the way -- goes all out. His house is an explosion of Christmas joy, complete with his great, great grandfather's train set. It's playful, because... Ne is playful. I'm playful. My dad is playful. Every Ne/Fe user I've ever met or seen has that playful side to them. Ideas are not serious things, really. You play with them, toss them around, engage them, and then throw them to one side as soon as a better idea or more exciting concept comes along. 

Now, perhaps I'm perceiving you as more serious than you are, in which case ISFJ is possible, if indeed ISFJs are the calm, serious waters through which life flows. Perhaps I AM an ESFJ -- but perhaps not. I'm described as laid back, good natured, funny, with a rapier wit among other people, who always intrudes with a joke to lighten the mood. In that sense, I am much like all the other ISFJs I know -- except perhaps funnier. Higher Ne, or just ... playful? I don't know. Perhaps I'm a little too caught up in all the possibilities of a situation. 

I'm sitting here, watching The Borgias at 6am, thinking I ought to write a novel around them. There's so much potential there. Particularly if I choose Borgia's first and longest mistress as the narrator. So much rich depth of potential in dealing with long-standing sin like that. (He was a CARDINAL and then a POPE. How do you reconcile murder, and debauchery, on that level, with his profession of faith?) You know, when I'm done with books on the Tudor wives, and Isabella of Spain. And, I will write them all. Regarding my own introversion or extroversion, and how it might shed light on yours, where does our primary focus go? On what is inside our head, or what is in front of us? In that regard, with my unceasing need for stimulation, I am probably indeed an extrovert -- despite being somewhat socially awkward and shy. I suspect you are the same -- that you spend far more time engaging with your environment, focusing on PEOPLE, than you do in lingering in your head.

Am I wrong?


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Am I wrong?


No, ur aren't. Signed under every word. 








SFJs are easily relatable and are not that different in communication from me. The only NTP-SFJ conflict I see happening is my dislike of details, planing, detailed planning, preparations before thing actually happens, and a complete disinterest of keeping "order" anywhere that isn't my head. Also the fact that I leave tooth paste cup open and drop trash around the house. ... And low Fe... Accidental "Why do you have to be an ass?" happen too...

P.S. I honestly believe that Si that @arkigos is picking up is mental health issues related. >_< I mean I've been here (and read 96% of it all!) since page 50something and genuinely don't see Ne in you. @angelcat @hoopla and @Oswin? Yeah, easily. But you? Nope.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I honestly believe that Si that @_arkigos_ is picking up is mental health issues related. >_< .


I've been wanting to explore this problem in typing. Hmm.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been wanting to explore this problem in typing. Hmm.


Easy. Some anxiety? Introvert and low Ne. Some depression? Fi. :tongue: The problem is when someone whom we are trying to type can't separate their issues from normal behavior. It becomes easier as you get better (hence I can see that my extreme fear of being received bad wasn't "introversion") but it takes *really a lot* of self-digging. I think @alittlebear does a good job of separating those and she's very open about discussing it but at the first glance some of her posts related to these issues can come off as Si>low Ne. I _strongly_ believe that mental health issues should be excluded when considering type or ennea type. I did a huge mistake of lumping all of my past anxiety into the type 6 and depression into the type 9.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Easy. Some anxiety? Introvert and low Ne. Some depression? Fi. :tongue: The problem is when someone whom we are trying to type can't separate their issues from normal behavior. It becomes easier as you get better (hence I can see that my extreme fear of being received bad wasn't "introversion") but it takes *really a lot* of self-digging. I think @_alittlebear_ does good job at separating those and she's very open about discussing it but at the first glance some of her posts can come off as Si>low Ne. I _strongly_ believe that mental health issues should be excluded when considering type or ennea type. I did a huge mistake of lumping all of my past anxiety into the type 6 and depression into the type 9.


I agree, and I especially hate when people use anxiety/depression to justify a certain typing because "this type is prone to anxiety/depression" which is just absurd.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat I'm a bit confused about my own childishness. I am very childish - in fact, I'm known for it. But I know that I play up my childishness because I know I appear as such and I naturally want to become what people see me as, or if I am childish in the way you are describing with Fe/Ne. I want to speak more to that, but I'm not sure if I understand it within myself at the moment. (I am told I am very serious, that I "take life too seriously and need to relax". That could be the anxiety though. And the childishness is almost definitely social anxiety related.) 

As for Rory... She seemed to have the same... I describe it as hardness, but the same uneasy conversational expressions I see in a lot of... well, I want to say SFJs but I will say FJs I know. 

Me, on the other hand... I was just in a conversation with two people I love (don't tell them that) and who I haven't seen in a while. One is a (staunch) conservative. The other is very quirky and liberal-leaning. In conversation, I gave the conservative something to feed on... While giving him the smiles and nods he wanted as he expressed what he meant a bit, and smiling sympathetically at the liberal so she would know that I was being polite and not completely on his side. In a conversation one on one with either of them, I would have conformed completely to their sides, only piping up different arguments in a careful and agreeable manner. And... yes, obviously what I do sounds exceptionally Fe. 
@Greyhart depression associated with 9? I've seen it mostly associated with 4. (I agree with your points and what you're saying about separation of type and illness, but that's something I haven't heard before.)


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart depression associated with 9? I've seen it mostly associated with 4. (I agree with your points and what you're saying about separation of type and illness, but that's something I haven't heard before.)


It was _personally for me_ associated with 9. The "withdrawal" since I've felt empty and removed/separated from _outside world_ that I _need_ to function.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...e-beliefs-9s-according-beatrice-chestnut.html



> - "I don't matter. It's easier that way." *depression - no hope.*
> - "What I think and feel isn't that important. And that's okay. Other people just feel more strongly about things than I do." *depression - feeling emotionless/empty*
> - "It's not okay to be angry or upset because that puts you at odds with others." *anxiety but depression to the degree too since I was afraid that if I lose friends and/or family there will nothing for me left at all.*
> - "It's more important to be nice and peaceful than to be true to myself." *anxiety/depression for the reason above ^*
> - "It's not good to show anger because conflict destroys positive connections with others." *anxiety/depression*
> - "If I'm not present and accessible to others, I'm safe." *anxiety - if I'm not in the social situation I'm OK*
> - "I don't know what I want, and it's not important anyway." *depression - empty, hopeless, no desires left.*
> - "I'm incapable of knowing what I want." *depression*
> - "Knowing what I want and asserting my desires in the world of others takes too much work and will alienate people I need or want to stay connected to." *depression/anxiety*
> - It's easier to go along with what other people want than to go to the trouble of asserting what I want." *depression - I don't know my desires.*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also @angelcat your speaking about the book ideas... It seems different from what I do. I would get a concept for a story from the show or use something from a show to enhance something that's already happening in my big story. I won't say fan fiction is exclusively Si/Ne - it's not - but even with fan fiction I have a hard time. I want to write a story that stands on it's own. I've mentioned that I want to write a story that parodies The Hunger Games; for that I would most like to create the most typically 21st century interpreted dystopian world possible with all the cliches of dystopia in a satirical way. But I wouldn't actually use the characters from the Hunger Games that I was satirizing, I would make characters who have their essence and place them in the story but not... exactly. (Same thing with my history class, if that is more relevant. I hear a great concept, a tragic story, an interesting story, and I think of how I could use that and apply it to my existing idea and plot or if it is worth pursuing in its own story.) (Most the time it's not worth it, but I store it away with my was of unused ideas anyway.)


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat I'm a bit confused about my own childishness. I am very childish - in fact, I'm known for it. But I know that I play up my childishness because I know I appear as such and I naturally want to become what people see me as, or if I am childish in the way you are describing with Fe/Ne. I want to speak more to that, but I'm not sure if I understand it within myself at the moment. (I am told I am very serious, that I "take life too seriously and need to relax". That could be the anxiety though. And the childishness is almost definitely social anxiety related.)


Fe-dom. Fe, Fe, Fe, everywhere. So much so, I can't see anything else in you, really.

I don't take life seriously. It's either one big joke, or can be turned into one. ANYTHING can be made funny. ANYTHING can be explored.

You seem to be pretty rigid in a lot of your views, which to me speaks to Fe/Ni. Ni in particular. Consider the Dany argument. You kind of hate her, but you object to the idea of them killing her. My Ne doesn't see it that way. There's a hundred different arguments FOR killing her, and for NOT killing her. I can see all the sides of everyone in that room, plus come up with more arguments for or con. 

Every time anything is brought up, you respond with a strident moral judgment -- which to me, is Fe/Ni. 

Monroe shouldn't have a real weapon in his stash. Get a fake.

My response: um... okay? LOL

(I'm not saying this to insult you; I don't object to your opinions, but they are very ... assertive, in a Fe-dom kind of way. Final, in a very Ni kind of way, too.)



> As for Rory... She seemed to have the same... I describe it as hardness, but the same uneasy conversational expressions I see in a lot of... well, I want to say SFJs but I will say FJs I know.


Are we talking about her physical expressions or her dialogue? If the dialogue, yes, she's an awkward introvert. If the physical expressions... what does that have to do with anything?



> Me, on the other hand... I was just in a conversation with two people I love (don't tell them that) and who I haven't seen in a while. One is a (staunch) conservative. The other is very quirky and liberal-leaning. In conversation, I gave the conservative something to feed on... While giving him the smiles and nods he wanted as he expressed what he meant a bit, and smiling sympathetically at the liberal so she would know that I was being polite and not completely on his side. In a conversation one on one with either of them, I would have conformed completely to their sides, only piping up different arguments in a careful and agreeable manner. And... yes, obviously what I do sounds exceptionally Fe.


Yup. More Fe.



> @Greyhart depression associated with 9? I've seen it mostly associated with 4. (I agree with your points and what you're saying about separation of type and illness, but that's something I haven't heard before.)


As someone who is depressed about 60% of the time, I don't think it has anything to do with Enneagram type.



> Also @angelcat your speaking about the book ideas... It seems different from what I do. I would get a concept for a story from the show or use something from a show to enhance something that's already happening in my big story. I won't say fan fiction is exclusively Si/Ne - it's not - but even with fan fiction I have a hard time. I want to write a story that stands on it's own. I've mentioned that I want to write a story that parodies The Hunger Games; for that I would most like to create the most typically 21st century interpreted dystopian world possible with all the cliches of dystopia in a satirical way. But I wouldn't actually use the characters from the Hunger Games that I was satirizing, I would make characters who have their essence and place them in the story but not... exactly. (Same thing with my history class, if that is more relevant. I hear a great concept, a tragic story, an interesting story, and I think of how I could use that and apply it to my existing idea and plot or if it is worth pursuing in its own story.) (Most the time it's not worth it, but I store it away with my was of unused ideas anyway.)


More Ni. "How can I fit this into my worldview/story concept that I already have in place??"

Instead of:

"Ooh, what can I do with THAT to make it AWESOME??"

There's no internal framework with Ne. None. Ne sees the object -- in my case, a historical figure or time period or whatever, and uses that to create an entire new universe. I don't look at history as "how can I put this into what already exists," I look at it as, "how does this blow apart what I already know?"


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> As someone who is depressed about 60% of the time, I don't think it has anything to do with Enneagram type.


Nooo, I meant that when looking for my ennea type I associated these problems with types and thought that I am 6 or 9 because of that. Which is wrong interpretation since it's about a behavioral type not "what kind of mental issues you have" type.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Nooo, I meant that when looking for my ennea type I associated these problems with types and thought that I am 6 or 9 because of that. Which is wrong interpretation since it's about a behavioral type not "what kind of mental issues you have" type.


[whispers] tell that to Naranjo


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat sorry again my answers are so short, I keep having these brief breaks. Hopefully I cover the main stuff. 

Oh, I mentioned how I thought the decorative weapon should have been in a muesem because I thought it was implied it was an actual real one? The ESFJ guy said "SO MUCH HISTORY" and the ISTP guy said "yeah, think how many people have been killed by that." I assumed they wouldn't say those things about a fake they got from the Halloween store. (I know that's a weird thing to fixate on so I wanted to explain it.) 

Perhaps I'm rigid. Hmm. I do have my ideas of how things should be done, because obviously it would be easier if they just did this and stuck with this clearly... I used to think that was Fi (especially with the Dany situation, where nothing can convince me she ought to be killed), but maybe it could say something about my Perceiving functions.

Edit: I can say... When I see mention of that discussion about Dany, it seems so preemptive to me (which would speak against Ni usage, perhaps). Dany is a minuscule dot on the horizon. She's a child, yes, and does not deserve to get hurt, but Robert should have been strengthening his core at home so they could fight off whatever came to attack him (Dothraki or otherwise), not sending an assassin to kill some fourteen year old girl who has a claim to the throne but who (and perhaps I'm misunderstanding the Westeros universe) has so few connections within it. 

That might go into broader political opinions. I mean, I don't really have strong political opinions... but my argument is sounding quite libertarian. I don't think that would have much to do with type.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> [whispers] tell that to Naranjo


who what?

-

Also, @angelcat, if you can clear this up for us:



> Every Halloween Josie carves pumpkins with her grandma. When her grandma passes, Josie can't help remembering her grandma whenever she sees a pumpkin, and so pumpkins represent love and kindness and overall gentle feelings. She attaches a personal meaning to pumpkins.


^Si?


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> [whispers] tell that to Naranjo


Personality disorders are very type related 
Agree for the rest of them though,the 2 I know has stereotypical 2 things going on but is also depressed and anxious,for type 2 reasons and in type 2 way


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny Naranjo is an Enneagram writer. There are a few topics stickied in every Enneagram forum that goes into his association of Enneagram with personality disorders.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ Naranjo is an Enneagram writer. There are a few topics stickied in every Enneagram forum that goes into his association of Enneagram with personality disorders.


Eugh :dry:


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> Personality disorders are very type related
> Agree for the rest of them though,the 2 I know has stereotypical 2 things going on but is also depressed and anxious,for type 2 reasons and in type 2 way


Non the less every type can be <insert illness>. That's what I meant.

I does seem that Fi's motivation of "fear" when it comes to SAD is different from me. I've heard some differences before and @laurie17 mentioned something a couple days ago. This is the murky territory however since fuck ups in brain chemistry are not entirely researched even in medicine let alone typology.



alittlebear said:


> @shinynotshiny Naranjo is an Enneagram writer. There are a few topics stickied in every Enneagram forum that goes into his association of Enneagram with personality disorders.


Yeah, and I disagree.


----------



## Darkbloom

But _personality_ disorders,not GAD and similar


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat so glad to see you watching the Borgias  You're watching the non-Netflix version, right? I watched the first episode... having stable typings for them might encourage my watching. 

Did you finish Reign? I still haven't watched the season finale. (Maybe tonight...)


----------



## Immolate

Living dead said:


> But _personality_ disorders,not GAD and similar


People with diagnosed personality disorders usually experienced sexual abuse or neglect in their childhoods. There is also an argument that genetic predisposition plays a role in developing a personality disorder along with environmental factors. I think relating an enneagram type to a personality disorder is fairly pointless.


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> But _personality_ disorders,not GAD and similar


There's a blurry line between these things.

I'm assuming he means narcissism and such. I think community takes it a bit too far in that regard, though. A lot of obvious anxiety issues seem to be thrown into the 6 while I think it's a very... "hard-edged" type.



shinynotshiny said:


> People with diagnosed personality disorders usually experienced sexual abuse or neglect in their childhoods. There is also an argument that genetic predisposition plays a role in developing a personality disorder along with environmental factors. I think relating an enneagram type to a personality disorder is fairly pointless.


Though the ennea type presumes learned behavior unlike Jung types.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I know my friend with NPD only has it because of the many traumatic abuses she has suffered constantly...


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I know my friend with NPD only has it because of the many traumatic abuses she has suffered constantly...


Augh, murky territory is murky :frustrating:


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Though the ennea type presumes learned behavior unlike Jung types.


Not everyone is going to react and develop the same way despite shared experiences, which is why I wouldn't count enneagram type as a good indicator or predictive factor in determining disorders. I say let's just not go there.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I know my friend with NPD only has it because of the many traumatic abuses she has suffered constantly...


Well of course,but it's probably enneagram related
Why wouldn't it be?
I find it weird people find that weird :/
Like,can you imagine a histrionic 5?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Augh, murky territory is murky :frustrating:


Yeah... Honestly I don't know much about personality disorders (other than that people who suffer from them should be treated as anyone else [with regards for what they have a hard time with, you wouldn't punish a blind child for not seeing], which is sadly a controversial opinion), I haven't studied them beyond learning stuff to help my friend, but I don't know if I agree with Naranjo entirely.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Well of course,but it's probably enneagram related
> Why wouldn't it be?
> I find it weird people find that weird :/
> Like,can you imagine a histrionic 5?


I really don't know enough about personality disorders or Enneagram to comment further.


----------



## Immolate

> Type 5 – The Investigator
> 
> Poor eating and sleeping habits due to minimizing needs. Neglecting hygiene and nutrition. Lack of physical activity. Psychotropic drugs for mental stimulation and escape, narcotics for anxiety.


_Well!_

lol actually it reminds me of Sherlock and how he would get high because he needed mental stimulation and very little could provide that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny can't see your profile at the moment, what Enneagram do you identify as?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ can't see your profile at the moment, what Enneagram do you identify as?


5w6 or 5w4, who knows. But yes to 5.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Yeah... Honestly I don't know much about personality disorders (other than that people who suffer from them should be treated as anyone else [with regards for what they have a hard time with, you wouldn't punish a blind child for not seeing], which is sadly a controversial opinion), I haven't studied them beyond learning stuff to help my friend, but I don't know if I agree with Naranjo entirely.


I consider psychiatry to be a field of _medicine_ and from my point of view to comment on that one _has to_ be a specialist. "I'm not a doctor but... ". NO.

Unlike of typology we have going which is more of self-improvement/self-help exercise on these forums tbh.



Living dead said:


> Well of course,but it's probably enneagram related
> Why wouldn't it be?
> I find it weird people find that weird :/
> Like,can you imagine a histrionic 5?


House lol


----------



## Immolate

> Type 6 – The Loyalist
> 
> Rigidity in diet causes nutritional imbalances (“I don’t like vegetables.”) Working excessively. Caffeine and amphetamines for stamina, but also alcohol and depressants to deaden anxiety. Higher susceptibility to alcoholism than many types.


Nonsense. Veggies are supreme.

But I do enjoy my coffee.



> Type 4 – The Individualist
> 
> Over-indulgence in rich foods, sweets, alcohol to alter mood, to socialize, and for emotional consolation. Lack of physical activity. Bulimia. Depressants. Tobacco, prescription drugs, or heroin for social anxiety. Cosmetic surgery to erase rejected features.


Whoa.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart not sure if this was what you were implying, I imagine not, but... Regardless if I'm a doctor, I know that anyone - severe personality disorder or completely neurotypical person - deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. (Hopefully we won't have to get into this discussion here...)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_Greyhart_ not sure if this was what you were implying, I imagine not, but... Regardless if I'm a doctor, I know that anyone - severe personality disorder or completely neurotypical person - deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. (Hopefully we won't have to get into this discussion here...)


I think that was more a criticism of Naranjo.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart not sure if this was what you were implying, I imagine not, but... Regardless if I'm a doctor, I know that anyone - severe personality disorder or completely neurotypical person - deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. (Hopefully we won't have to get into this discussion here...)


Nono, oh god how do i do this each time. I mean that _*I*_ do not wish to speculate on functions/types and mental illnesses since when it comes to later although I have/had those I know nothing like Jon Snow.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Also, @angelcat, if you can clear this up for us:
> 
> Every Halloween Josie carves pumpkins with her grandma. When her grandma passes, Josie can't help remembering her grandma whenever she sees a pumpkin, and so pumpkins represent love and kindness and overall gentle feelings. She attaches a personal meaning to pumpkins.
> 
> ^Si?


Yes. That sounds like Si.



alittlebear said:


> @angelcat so glad to see you watching the Borgias  You're watching the non-Netflix version, right? I watched the first episode... having stable typings for them might encourage my watching.
> 
> Did you finish Reign? I still haven't watched the season finale. (Maybe tonight...)


Re-watching. I watched it as it aired, but I read a bio on Isabella of Spain, which led me to thinking about the Borgias all over again (she met a young Rodrigo before she seized the throne)... and that led me to dig out the DVD set. 

No, haven't seen season two of "Reign" yet. I have to stream it, and the source was giving me issues earlier this week (storms, rain, power outages), so ... it'll have to wait.

Typing wise... Rodrigo is ENTJ, probably Ceasare also (used to think INTJ, but he's pretty Te/Se). Juan is ESXP, probably ESTP (I'm watching season two and he's barely in it). Mistress #1 is ESFJ, Mistress #2 ... INFJ? Hard to tell with her. Introvert. Self-contained, morals in flux, certainly Fe, but I can't see any Si. Lucretzia ... ENFP. 



alittlebear said:


> Oh, I mentioned how I thought the decorative weapon should have been in a muesem because I thought it was implied it was an actual real one? The ESFJ guy said "SO MUCH HISTORY" and the ISTP guy said "yeah, think how many people have been killed by that." I assumed they wouldn't say those things about a fake they got from the Halloween store. (I know that's a weird thing to fixate on so I wanted to explain it.)


You are not wrong. It IS a real one -- from Nick's personal collection of Grimm artifacts. I just find it interesting how you got ... stuck on it. Focused on it. 



> Perhaps I'm rigid. Hmm. I do have my ideas of how things should be done, because obviously it would be easier if they just did this and stuck with this clearly... I used to think that was Fi (especially with the Dany situation, where nothing can convince me she ought to be killed), but maybe it could say something about my Perceiving functions.
> 
> Edit: I can say... When I see mention of that discussion about Dany, it seems so preemptive to me (which would speak against Ni usage, perhaps). Dany is a minuscule dot on the horizon. She's a child, yes, and does not deserve to get hurt, but Robert should have been strengthening his core at home so they could fight off whatever came to attack him (Dothraki or otherwise), not sending an assassin to kill some fourteen year old girl who has a claim to the throne but who (and perhaps I'm misunderstanding the Westeros universe) has so few connections within it.


More Fe. Fe arguments. MORAL Fe arguments, which any Fe-user at that table WOULD HAVE proposed, had they had ... morals. None of them do. All of them are corrupt, so naturally good and evil has no bearing on it -- it's all for the selfish greater good of their cause, for power, for the kingdom, for self-advancement and self-preservation. The Ni's thought about futuristic consequences; the Si/Ne's chose to support it out of uncertainty toward the future, the fear of what MIGHT happen. 

I used to be more black and white. I'm less so now ... the influence of a much stronger Ne than I had in my childhood.


----------



## Immolate

Sherlock:



> Nothing could exceed his energy when the working fit was upon him: but now and again a reaction would seize him, and for days on end he would lie upon the sofa in the sitting- room, hardly uttering a word or moving a muscle from morning to night. On these occasions I have noticed such a dreamy, vacant expression in his eyes, that I might have suspected him of being addicted to the use of some narcotic, had not the temperance and cleanliness of his whole life forbidden such a notion.
> 
> -
> 
> Sherlock Holmes took his bottle from the corner of the mantel-piece and his hypodermic syringe from its neat morocco case. With his long, white, nervous fingers he adjusted the delicate needle, and rolled back his left shirt-cuff. For some little time his eyes rested thoughtfully upon the sinewy forearm and wrist all dotted and scarred with innumerable puncture-marks. Finally, he thrust the sharp point home, pressed down the tiny piston, and sank back into the velvet-lined arm-chair with a long sigh of satisfaction.
> 
> -
> 
> "I suppose that its influence is physically a bad one. I find it, however, so transcendentally stimulating and clarifying to the mind that its secondary action is a matter of small moment."
> 
> -
> 
> "My mind rebels at stagnation. Give me problems, give me work, give me the most abstruse cryptogram, or the most intricate analysis, and I am in my own proper atmosphere. I can dispense then with artificial stimulants. But I abhor the dull routine of existence. I crave for mental exaltation."


Hmmmm.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Yes. That sounds like Si.


Thank you for responding. I gave that as an example of Si and alittlebear said she couldn't relate.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Thank you for responding. I gave that as an example of Si and alittlebear said she couldn't relate.


It that's the case in Josie's case, then I am an SJ.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> It that's the case in Josie's case, then I am an SJ.


As I've been saying :laughing:

Have you settled on a type?


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Thank you for responding. I gave that as an example of Si and alittlebear said she couldn't relate.


Sounds a lot like an SJ friend of mine, and her adoration for Disney on the whole. It ceases to be what it is, and it represents her own golden childhood, her family experiences, and her happiness in a much younger age. Do not touch Disney. Do not alter it. Do not challenge it. You are messing with her golden remembrances.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> As I've been saying :laughing:
> 
> Have you settled on a type?


Nope. I think I may be an SFJ stuck in a Si-Ti loop, though. Or some ENTP stuck in a loop. I really don't think I am an ESTJ, the more I think about things. I really have no structure, and really like mingling with other people. Sometimes they piss me off and are selfish, but I guess I have to endure them in some way.


----------



## Darkbloom

I don't give _personal_ meanings to things at all I'd say,I give them meanings they already have and I try to somehow connect them to myself so I can get the meaning that thing has
Is that more Ni/Se then?


----------



## 68097

My mother is an STJ. Very direct, very blunt, very able to take charge of a situation and do the most rational thing, that reaches the desired result. After her father died, within 24 hours she and I were in his house, cleaning it out, throwing things away, gathering up stuff to donate, and deciding which descendent got what. She has organized charts and lists for everything, including her grocery list. She was a straight-A student. Type A personality. Driven. Intense. Focused. Like me, she fixates on things and powers through until she's done. We can't just watch ONE EPISODE of something, we have to marathon it. She can't just read one chapter of a book (when she reads, which is rarely) -- she reads the whole thing in one sitting. She designs elaborate interior design plans, then marches out into the yard and starts laying down the foundation. 

Sometimes, she says things and I cringe because -- wow, BLUNT. She's open to new ideas but can't grasp them easily -- Dad will be talking about C.S. Lewis and abstract concepts at breakfast, and she'll have no idea what he's going on about, and doesn't care unless it is USEFUL. Personality typing? _Huh, interesting. Let me know if it'll help me understand my crazy relatives_. She doesn't over think anything and only cries if she feels sorry for herself. Her words, not mine.


----------



## 68097

Living dead said:


> I don't give _personal_ meanings to things at all I'd say,I give them meanings they already have and I try to somehow connect them to myself so I can get the meaning that thing has
> Is that more Ni/Se then?


This actually sounds more Se/Ni to me. See the object, for what it is, THEN pull them toward yourself.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Actually I think Alpha's humor tends to make a fun/mock a situation, not people. I'm rereading 12 chairs currently, I think at least one of the authors was Alpha.
> 
> 
> Not 100% sure. You seem like extrovert but also seem much into... logic-y part. For the record I think both @angelcat and @hoopla are ISFJs just one is more of professor in a fancy study room and the other one is this kind of a professor. My friend is more of later sort too. Major banana geek and weeaboo. :tongue:


Me and my Mother do this all the time. In the car. Mock a situation out of control. She is worse than anyone I know. Quite entertaining though.

That first room looks sexy. It reminds me of the study rooms in one of those grand buildings. Like a castle. I could see myself in there, but again, the second professor looks fun as hell. I would probably act the second one, but go retreat in that sexy room, lol.

One of my characters is an ESFJ. He has a good job.


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> Haha I can totally see myself acting like that,why TP???
> Well,I guess it depends though.I wouldn't act like that if I had anything to lose XD


OK, FJ with a penchant for asshatness works too?  I think it sounds like Fe reaction.


----------



## Darkbloom

Greyhart said:


> OK, FJ with a penchant for asshatness works too?  I think it sounds like Fe reaction.


Sound about right to me! 

Edit: not aux Fe though :laughing:


----------



## Max

@Living dead -I am an asshat too ;D Bored one at that. Gonna go to the gym and socialize. And then come home and try read this book. Wrap my head around it. And go out tomorrow, and hopefully Sunday too.


----------



## Darkbloom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @Living dead -I am an asshat too ;D Bored one at that. Gonna go to the gym and socialize. And then come home and try read this book. Wrap my head around it. And go out tomorrow, and hopefully Sunday too.


To shameless asshattery erc3:


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> Sound about right to me!
> 
> Edit: *not aux Fe though* :laughing:


IxFJs? One very fierce might but I'd write it for extroverts yeah. INTP probably wouldn't either. Show off-y behavior. ISTP just might lol.


----------



## Darkbloom

Greyhart said:


> IxFJs? One very fierce might but I'd write it for extroverts yeah. INTP probably wouldn't either. Show off-y behavior. ISTP just might lol.


Actually I could see my ISFJ friend going with it, with ton of hidden pride, but she wouldn't actively try to reinforce it.
I love ISFJs so much XD

Agree for INTPs


----------



## Max

Living dead said:


> To shameless asshattery erc3:


Yay. I'm back.

I went to the gym, got in my element, started singing, the woman infront of me didn't care. She seemed so TJ. So controlled. I got bored and eent into the weights room. No-one there. Lifted a bit. Got bored and bought some water. Called my Mom to collect me at the shop. Walked up. Caught some kids noseying at me, so I played them at their own game. I think I confused them. They seemed lost.

SO ANYWAY... I walked to the shop, spoke to the cashier, bought some shit, and got a lift home. Then Bella, my neighbour's lab came running up to see me. I ended up socializing with my neighbour for a while, and now he's coming to see me and my brother tomorrow.

I walk and hear Taylor Swift playing. Back when she was listenable to. Brings back memories me around my yard in the summer. When my Mom played her.

My life sounds like the start of one of these teenage comedy movies. Doesn't it? XD


----------



## fair phantom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, true. Even INTPs ain't as bad. I think a lot of Alpha humor is shock tactics, satire, impressions, general weird stuff from what I know of it anyway.
> 
> So, do you think extroverted ISFJ or well developed, crazified ESFJ? I dunno. My Dad still says I have no brains, lol.
> 
> I am too light-hearted to be a serious type.


I'm not saying you aren't an SFJ but I wonder how much your confusion is linked to ESTJ stereotypes?

If someone interacts with my ESTJ sister at a social event, they would definitely think she was more fun than serious. Oddly, she seems to have only gotten more playful and light-hearted as the years have passed. Her Ne is very well developed. And she has an amazing talent for both making and keeping friends. Everytime she goes to visit our parents, she also visits friends she has in town. Friends that she has had for over 30 years. I don't know how she does it. And last Christmas she was running around playing soccer in the house with two of my nephews, keeping up with their energy even though she is almost 40. There are times she seems like Fe. But I know better.

You can see she is a Te whenever she actually has to deal with something, rather than acting in a social situation governed by social norms (because there are situations where drinking and dancing around is the socially prescribed behavior). She thinks like a Te: facts, externalized logic, this is how it is. This is what is known. When there is a problem: this is what is essential. When her more emotional friends or our unhealthy-Fe mother get upset with her (often because she was blunt or "didn't consider their feelings"), she just wants to know how to fix it. She gets frustrated with their lack of rationality (though she usually knows better than to say that to their faces). If she behaves in an Fe-way in such times, then it is because her Te decided it was the most efficient way to deal with the problem. And it is not that she doesn't care, because she does, but she still sees their emotions as an overreaction and could never have anticipated their reactions ahead of time.


----------



## Immolate

STJs have souls. Fi's have souls.

Also fun.

Maybe Ti sounds more appealing than Te.


----------



## Max

fair phantom said:


> I'm not saying you aren't an SFJ but I wonder how much your confusion is linked to ESTJ stereotypes?
> 
> If someone interacts with my ESTJ sister at a social event, they would definitely think she was more fun than serious. Oddly, she seems to have only gotten more playful and light-hearted as the years have passed. Her Ne is very well developed. And she has an amazing talent for both making and keeping friends. Everytime she goes to visit our parents, she also visits friends she has in town. Friends that she has had for over 30 years. I don't know how she does it. And last Christmas she was running around playing soccer in the house with two of my nephews, keeping up with their energy even though she is almost 40. There are times she seems like Fe. But I know better.
> 
> You can see she is a Te whenever she actually has to deal with something, rather than acting in a social situation governed by social norms (because there are situations where drinking and dancing around is the socially prescribed behavior). She thinks like a Te: facts, externalized logic, this is how it is. This is what is known. When there is a problem: this is what is essential. When her more emotional friends or our unhealthy-Fe mother get upset with her (often because she was blunt or "didn't consider their feelings"), she just wants to know how to fix it. She gets frustrated with their lack of rationality (though she usually knows better than to say that to their faces). If she behaves in an Fe-way in such times, then it is because her Te decided it was the most efficient way to deal with the problem. And it is not that she doesn't care, because she does, but she still sees their emotions as an overreaction and could never have anticipated their reactions ahead of time.


Not saying you are wrong, but how do you know that I'm not stuck in a loop? How do you know I don't have developing Ti/Ne? Or anything? An ESTJ would never try to manipulate a system or a group of people, would they? They build systems based on external logic, right? They are ambitious, driven, set goals and accomplish them? They wouldn't look for logical flaws in a system? They back things up with facts, right? They keep things organized? They are one of the most objective groups in the system?

To be fair, I could never see myself keeping to that mantra. I could see myself as more of a community-based person. More interpersonal. Working with people, more than objects. Keeping check of people, and what they do. Helping them. Organziny them. Seeing them as a whole. Yes, I love facts and memorizing them. Yes, I am not afraid to be blunt in certain situations, and yes, I sometimes get pissed off with the human race, but I know most of them mean well. I don't really want to hurt anyone unnecesarily. 

I don't wanna be the most powerful man in the world. I don't wanna have loads of people hate me. I don't wanna be in a hateful job. I don't wanna be in charge of loads of people's crappy assignments. Or loads of data. Although I know that society isn't the best, I still want to help people to an extent. The community. People who need it. 

I'm not stupid though. I know not everyone are who they say they are, and I know humanity as a whole isn't/won't get better/never was and never will, and that the world is going to end someday. But I want to warn people about things, keep them from falling into traps, let them know evil plans. And be there for them when they need it. Support. 

Yes, I know sometimes I can be an asshat, but I mean well. I know I do things I shouldn't, but I do them for a reason. I know sometimes it seems like I don't care, but I do. I know sometimes I can be angry. I am sorry. 

What more can I say? Sorry if that went on a bit, but those are my views. Feel free to disagree


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Not saying you are wrong, but how do you know that I'm not stuck in a loop? How do you know I don't have developing Ti/Ne? Or anything? An ESTJ would never try to manipulate a system or a group of people, would they? They build systems based on external logic, right? They are ambitious, driven, set goals and accomplish them? They wouldn't look for logical flaws in a system? They back things up with facts, right? They keep things organized? They are one of the most objective groups in the system?
> 
> To be fair, I could never see myself keeping to that mantra. I could see myself as more of a community-based person. More interpersonal. Working with people, more than objects. Keeping check of people, and what they do. Helping them. Organziny them. Seeing them as a whole. Yes, I love facts and memorizing them. Yes, I am not afraid to be blunt in certain situations, and yes, I sometimes get pissed off with the human race, but I know most of them mean well. I don't really want to hurt anyone unnecesarily.
> 
> I don't wanna be the most powerful man in the world. I don't wanna have loads of people hate me. I don't wanna be in a hateful job. I don't wanna be in charge of loads of people's crappy assignments. Or loads of data. Although I know that society isn't the best, I still want to help people to an extent. The community. People who need it.
> 
> I'm not stupid though. I know not everyone are who they say they are, and I know humanity as a whole isn't/won't get better/never was and never will, and that the world is going to end someday. But I want to warn people about things, keep them from falling into traps, let them know evil plans. And be there for them when they need it. Support.
> 
> Yes, I know sometimes I can be an asshat, but I mean well. I know I do things I shouldn't, but I do them for a reason. I know sometimes it seems like I don't care, but I do. I know sometimes I can be angry. I am sorry.
> 
> What more can I say? Sorry if that went on a bit, but those are my views. Feel free to disagree


Your first paragraph is basically a stream of stereotypes.

P.S. You can be a thinking type and have humanitarian goals and/or points of view.


----------



## fair phantom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Not saying you are wrong, but how do you know that I'm not stuck in a loop? How do you know I don't have developing Ti/Ne? Or anything? An ESTJ would never try to manipulate a system or a group of people, would they? They build systems based on external logic, right? They are ambitious, driven, set goals and accomplish them? They wouldn't look for logical flaws in a system? They back things up with facts, right? They keep things organized? They are one of the most objective groups in the system?
> 
> To be fair, I could never see myself keeping to that mantra. I could see myself as more of a community-based person. More interpersonal. Working with people, more than objects. Keeping check of people, and what they do. Helping them. Organziny them. Seeing them as a whole. Yes, I love facts and memorizing them. Yes, I am not afraid to be blunt in certain situations, and yes, I sometimes get pissed off with the human race, but I know most of them mean well. I don't really want to hurt anyone unnecesarily.
> 
> I don't wanna be the most powerful man in the world. I don't wanna have loads of people hate me. I don't wanna be in a hateful job. I don't wanna be in charge of loads of people's crappy assignments. Or loads of data. Although I know that society isn't the best, I still want to help people to an extent. The community. People who need it.
> 
> I'm not stupid though. I know not everyone are who they say they are, and I know humanity as a whole isn't/won't get better/never was and never will, and that the world is going to end someday. But I want to warn people about things, keep them from falling into traps, let them know evil plans. And be there for them when they need it. Support.
> 
> Yes, I know sometimes I can be an asshat, but I mean well. I know I do things I shouldn't, but I do them for a reason. I know sometimes it seems like I don't care, but I do. I know sometimes I can be angry. I am sorry.
> 
> What more can I say? Sorry if that went on a bit, but those are my views. Feel free to disagree


Of course I don't know, and I don't think you are stupid. I simply raise the question because a lot of what you refer to when talking about ESTJs _are_ stereotypes. Including in this response. :/


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> I can kinda relate to "I can live in my memories/imagination",but not really,I always somehow try to force them outside myself I guess and make them into present reality,nothing is worth anything when it's just inside my head,*someone has to live with me inside my imagination
> *Can you relate to that?


Yes, I can, and the bold bit is a perfect sentence)
I probably overstated myself, and your point is fair)


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Your first paragraph is basically a stream of stereotypes.
> 
> P.S. You can be a thinking type and have humanitarian goals and/or points of view.


MBTI is fucking confusing, okay?  Sorry, I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

And by that logic, feeling types can have logical goals/points of view  


fair phantom said:


> Of course I don't know, and I don't think you are stupid. I simply raise the question because a lot of what you refer to when talking about ESTJs _are_ stereotypes. Including in this response. :/


I don't know anymore, sorry. I am trying to imagine myself as your Sister, and resonate with what you are saying. I don't know. I can see a bit of her in me, yes, but not a lot. 

I *THINK* enneagram plays a role in motives also.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> MBTI is fucking confusing, okay?  Sorry, I'm trying to wrap my head around it.
> 
> *And by that logic, feeling types can have logical goals/points of view *


Of course they can.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Actually I think Alpha's humor tends to make a fun/mock a situation, not people. I'm rereading 12 chairs currently, I think at least one of the authors was Alpha.
> 
> 
> Not 100% sure. You seem like extrovert but also seem much into... logic-y part. For the record I think both @angelcat and @hoopla are ISFJs just one is more of professor in a fancy study room and the other one is this kind of a professor. My friend is more of later sort too. Major banana geek and weeaboo. :tongue:


I honestly cannot figure out which image is supposed to refer to whom.
Lol


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Of course they can.


Sorry, my head is giving me a headache. All these thoughts, doubts, whatever else floating about inside lol. Last night, I was gonna try find my off switch. I really am overthinking this whole thing. Sorry.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

This is ridiculous but I think I use Se. I just spent close to an hour throwing a ball from a high place, giggling absurdly, and running after it to do it all again. I just had so much fun seeing what I could do with the ball, what other things I could bounce it on, what it would do to other people... My sister and her friend kept saying "It's really not that cool..." and laughing with me anyway because I just could not stop. I don't even know why I kept doing that, what was so fun about it to me, but I'm tempted to go back and continue


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I honestly cannot figure out which image is supposed to refer to whom.
> Lol


I've also been thinking about it :tongue:


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> I honestly cannot figure out which image is supposed to refer to whom.
> Lol


ur a fancy professor @angelcat probably accidentally destroys filing systems


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> I honestly cannot figure out which image is supposed to refer to whom.
> Lol


I can see you as the one with glasses.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Sorry, my head is giving me a headache. All these thoughts, doubts, whatever else floating about inside lol. Last night, I was gonna try find my off switch. I really am overthinking this whole thing. Sorry.


No worries. I agree it can be confusing.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I can see you as the one with glasses.


awwww

"I'm proud of what I am!"












psssst The Mummy


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> No worries. I agree it can be confusing.


I think I use Fe and Ti. Not so sure. Back when I originally started playing 'Guess my type?', I was an ENTP. I was an ENTP for ages. Then I started doubtig my Ne and Ti, now I am debating over ESxJ. Phew.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> awwww
> 
> I'm proud of what I am!


I meant @hoopla! I can see you as the first one  but she works too


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think I use Fe and Ti. Not so sure. Back when I originally started playing 'Guess my type?', I was an ENTP. I was an ENTP for ages. Then I started doubtig my Ne and Ti, now I am debating over ESxJ. Phew.


I saw a lot of Te, but perhaps you're ESTP as @arkigos said (if I remember correctly).


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I meant @_hoopla_! I can see you as the first one  but she works too


I know you were talking about hoopla :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

^^^^^^^


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> I saw a lot of Te, but perhaps you're ESTP as @arkigos said (if I remember correctly).


How the fuck does that work? Lol. Where do you see Se and Ni? 

I'm seriously considering just going within the Alpha Quadra, and sticking with it xD


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> ^^^^^^^


that cuts so early she was going to kiss him but literally _fell_ asleep on him before she could


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> How the fuck does that work? Lol. Where do you see Se and Ni?
> 
> I'm seriously considering just going within the Alpha Quadra, and sticking with it xD


Who knows. I don't see Fe/Ti to begin with.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> that cuts so early she was going to kiss him but literally _fell_ asleep on him before she could


The movie had its cute moments :laughing:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Who knows. I don't see Fe/Ti to begin with.


All this fluctuation shit screams Fe, lol.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Are you guys really talking about Librarians the show


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Are you guys really talking about Librarians the show


Do you not know about The Mummy?!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> All this fluctuation shit screams Fe, lol.


In what way are you seeing that as Fe?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Do you not know about The Mummy?!


Ohh. I'm on my phone and can't see these videos. (I don't know about the Mummy, but... I was confused, oops.)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Ohh. I'm on my phone and can't see these videos. (I don't know about the Mummy, but... I was confused, oops.)


----------



## Dragheart Luard

LuchoIsLurking said:


> All this fluctuation shit screams Fe, lol.


I think that it could be Ne issues, specially weaker as it seems to be overexpressed but not of good quality. BTW, I'm a Te user and can be a troll when I want, so really being Te-Fi doesn't mean that you can't have a sense of humor. The whole serious/merry thing of socionics is misleading, so don't be confused by it.


----------



## Max

Blue Flare said:


> I recommend to take a break, then read the info again as you may need some time for sorting the meaningful parts and ignore all the stereotypes. MBTI is a mess, so it's not surprising that you don't know what to do now.


I don't wanna look at functions and MBTI, Enneagram and stereotypes for a while anymore, tbh xD The more I read, the less I know, the more I want to let it go. I have a hard time wrapping my head around subjective theories in general. And these systems. It wrecks my head, Pal. Y'know?

Thanks for the advice though . I think reading as much as you can about the functions sounds like a fair enough deal. But getting me to actually read for long periods of time? Sometimes challenging.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

My dream occupation is dictator. How to tell my career counselors though...


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> ^rest of the world that isn't usa
> And of course him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 year old me finding out that all that reproductive drive from medical encyclopedia is applicable to myself as well.


Laughing


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> And of course him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 year old me finding out that all that reproductive drive from medical encyclopedia is applicable to myself as well.


YES










*swoon*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Is this still The mummy


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Is this still The mummy


Yes.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> My dream occupation is dictator. How to tell my career counselors though...


Aim high.










shinynotshiny said:


> Laughing


He has bird








What else do i need from man


----------



## Immolate

There's even a ride, alittlebear


----------



## orbit

When alittlebear is dictator, there shall be no groupies


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> When alittlebear is dictator, there shall be no groupies


Only if my reign is successful.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Only if my reign is successful.


It shan't. The Commu-Nazis are rising. 

By the way, besides Jung's books, what are the recommendable, somewhat reliable resources to search functions upon?


----------



## fair phantom

@Greyhart

I got the urge to rewatch _The Mummy_ about a month ago

Boyfriend walks In: *surprised* Is this _The Mummy_?
Me: Yes
B: ...Are you just watching this for Oded Fehr? (the beautiful man in black)
Me: >_>
Me: No... I also love Rachel Weisz.


----------



## Max

Jeez, I come back to so much confusion xD


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Jeez, I come back to so much confusion xD


Have you seen The Mummy?


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Have you seen The Mummy?


Yes, the movie with Brendan Frazier and Rachel Weisz in it? Seen it before. Forget how it ends lol.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes, the movie with Brendan Frazier and Rachel Weisz in it? Seen it before. Forget how it ends lol.


Good :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes, the movie with Brendan Frazier and Rachel Weisz in it? Seen it before. Forget how it ends lol.


Mummy wins. It's Ancient Egypt everywhere. Everyone has to wear kohl but skinny jeans are prohibited.



fair phantom said:


> @Greyhart
> 
> I got the urge to rewatch _The Mummy_ about a month ago
> 
> Boyfriend walks In: *surprised* Is this _The Mummy_?
> Me: Yes
> B: ...Are you just watching this for Oded Fehr? (the beautiful man in black)
> Me: >_>
> Me: No... I also love Rachel Weisz.


Everyone is do-able in that movie tbh. My friend is majorly into Imhotep.



shinynotshiny said:


> There's even a ride, alittlebear


That is... the death of me.



Curiphant said:


> When alittlebear is dictator, there shall be no groupies


What no!


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Mummy wins. It's Ancient Egypt everywhere. Everyone has to wear kohl but skinny jeans are prohibited.
> 
> 
> Everyone is do-able in that movie tbh. My friend is majorly into Imhotep.
> 
> 
> That is... the death of me.


Over a nerdy librarian? Really?

Also, that is a baby roller coaster. This is what you mean:


----------



## Greyhart

@shinynotshiny that video everything inside me is crying


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ that video everything inside me is crying


I had a park map tucked in my back pocket and it was gone by the time I got off the ride :th_love:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> There will always exist disadvantages and unfair movement towards the top, but I wouldn't be so pessimistic.


If the top men have a plan to make themselves an advantage over the lower tiers, I can't see them changing their minds. Money >> Power >> Dictatorship >> Domination.

Ever heard of the Georgia Guidestones before? Apparently, those are the top men's world goals.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Okay, imagine this.
> 
> Here is society, in my eyes:
> 
> TOP MEN
> |
> TOP GOVERMENT
> |
> LOWER GOVERNMENT
> |
> LOCAL GOVERNMENT
> |
> US
> 
> Yes, we can try change the bottom two, but how can we change the rest if they are set in their ways to control the world? We can influence the bottom sectors, but not the top and that is the way it is.












Erm, no. I have my rights because of a lot of small people done it before me and eventually will have more because a lot of small people will push for a change with me. You've never participated in any protest events have you? I lived through 2 major ones that changed the rule in my country.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> There will always exist disadvantages and unfair movement towards the top, but I wouldn't be so pessimistic.


There have been studies that prove (I want to say associate but then I'd have to rewrite this whole sentence and I do not want to do that) when you gain power you feel safer and therefore you feel more comfortable in being risky (ex. being a jerk) because again no punishments! 

Which is kind of intuitive but oh well 

Basically I agree with this statement


----------



## Slagasauras

How is there 2421 replies!?


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Again, incorrect. Women and minorities can vote, I don't live in USSR, like half of states in USA accept same-sex marriage, I can say that I'm into all genders and not be sent into the mental hospital. Et cetera. Sure, nothing goes form level 1 to 100 in a night and changes happen gradually but they do.


^^^^^

I'll give a small example. Back in 2008 I voted in the Presidential elections and also voted against an amendment to the state constitution that would define marriage as between a man and a woman, effectively banning same-sex marriage or civil unions in my state. The amendment passed and same-sex marriage was banned. I thought, "It's going to take forever to get rid of this bullshit," but it's finally happening and it only took a few years. I thought it would take much, much longer lol

Also, yes, it's different and a lot harder depending on context (country, culture, etc)


----------



## Max

You know it was gonna happen anyway? Propaganda or not? Its all part of the plan.


----------



## orbit

Slagasauras said:


> How is there 2421 replies!?


We're obsessed with @alittlebear

Well not me. I just showed up

So they are


----------



## Greyhart

Slagasauras said:


> How is there 2421 replies!?


 @alittlebear 's Ni is hard to confirm or reject. Extensive talk into pop culture and philosophy is needed. GIFs help clarify things too.


----------



## orbit

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You know it was gonna happen anyway? Propaganda or not? Its all part of the plan.


Not necessarily. Progress is not inevitable. The Dark Ages for example. 

Anyway even if it was inevitable progress should move quickly as positive to maximize potential happiness ^^


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You know it was gonna happen anyway? Propaganda or not? Its all part of the plan.


We've got a conspiracy theorist.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You know it was gonna happen anyway? Propaganda or not? Its all part of the plan.


Regress happens. A lot. A LOT.



Curiphant said:


> Progress is *not* inevitable.


^ I for example don't want to live until 90 to be able to marry potential non-man partner.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> We've got a conspiracy theorist.


Once you know how the world works, what the men in high places do and how you are fucked, the world is kinda ruined for you.

This song sums things up perfectly for me
https://youtu.be/vyEi3uvgslY


----------



## orbit

I have a theory that the Berlin Wall was never torn down but was slowly replaced by an invisible force field that only blocks squid from entering and exiting. That's why Germans don't have calamari :/


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Once you know how the world works, *what the men in high places do and how* you are fucked, the world is kinda ruined for you.
> 
> This song sums things up perfectly for me
> https://youtu.be/vyEi3uvgslY


You fight.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Once you know how the world works, what the men in high places do and how you are fucked, the world is kinda ruined for you.
> 
> This song sums things up perfectly for me
> https://youtu.be/vyEi3uvgslY


I'm reminded of this video.






Also, your link is broken.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Regress happens. A lot. A LOT.
> 
> 
> ^ I for example don't want to live until 90 to be able to marry potential non-man partner.



I hope you don't D8

I can't wait until I'm old enough to vote


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I have a theory that the Berlin Wall was never torn down but was slowly replaced by an invisible force field that only blocks squid from entering and exiting. That's why Germans don't have calamari :/


They all stay in Estonia "where by the looks of it they still expect Shrek attacks".


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Regress happens. A lot. A LOT.
> 
> 
> ^ I for example don't want to live until 90 to be able to marry potential non-man partner.


I truly, honestly believed I'd be an old lady before I could marry here but no wow it's happening sooner than I thought and now I don't know what my life is lol


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> You fight.


For some reason the like button disappeared for me but this is excellent

And fighting is so simple. If more democrats had voted for the senator election four years ago, my school would still have more funding and not as many programs would have been cut. So fighting can a single vote 

Well in democracy, fighting is voting


----------



## Max

If you knew what I knew, you'd think we were fucked too xD!!


----------



## orbit

Oh whoops nevermind


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> If you knew what I knew, you'd think we were fucked too xD!!


Do enlighten us.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Do enlighten us.


There's too much to explain. I don't kmow where to start.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> There's too much to explain. I don't kmow where to start.


This thread is forever.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> If you knew what I knew, you'd think we were fucked too xD!!


I know. I live in a country that had piece of it torn away and nothing was done. Where war instigated by larger country is killing boys that I saw growing up. But you are ignoring the positive changes that has happened by people simply marching on. I brought them up. No, they didn't not happen "organically" or by themselves. History of changes in society is a story of wars and rebellions where old was violently torn away to be replaced by something else. And not always good else.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> This thread is forever.


True. There is no beginning, only an end to this chaos. Lol. There is a source, but thay is not the ultimate beginning.


----------



## orbit

LuchoIsLurking said:


> There's too much to explain. I don't kmow where to start.


The beginning of a realization is usually a good place to start. 

What's wrong with men?


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> This is ridiculous but I think I use Se. I just spent close to an hour throwing a ball from a high place, giggling absurdly, and running after it to do it all again. I just had so much fun seeing what I could do with the ball, what other things I could bounce it on, what it would do to other people... My sister and her friend kept saying "It's really not that cool..." and laughing with me anyway because I just could not stop. I don't even know why I kept doing that, what was so fun about it to me, but I'm tempted to go back and continue


This is soooo me!
I often do silly things like that,my ISFJ grandma thinks I'm crazy XD
I do have xSTJ grandpa though,and he sings while I'm doing whatever silly thing I'm doing,sometimes my ESFP cousin joins us and grandma thinks all of us are insane:laughing:
I don't know if it's necessarily Se but most xSFJs don't seem to be too supportive of such behaviour


----------



## Max

Curiphant said:


> The beginning of a realization is usually a good place to start.
> 
> What's wrong with men?


There is no beginning. Only an end.

Nothing. What they do is where the issue lies.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> ur a fancy professor @angelcat probably accidentally destroys filing systems


I was confused because the ordering of the images was not equivalent to the precedent ordering of the tagging of both of us. lol. Also because the meaning of the images may have surpassed my sensor brain.

I think most people see me as the fancy professor but sometimes I think I would more likely destroy the filing systems via blundering oblivion. However I would cover up my blunders with charm and verbosity. Most wouldn't notice my clumsy errors, and those who did would focus too much on observational psychology studies to let it bother them. I also cannot look too intellectual; I need high quality decor of high quality with fake nails and platinum hair. Something of an amalgamation, aren't I?


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> True. There is no beginning, only an end to this chaos. Lol. There is a source, but thay is not the ultimate beginning.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


>


Wanna know the worst thing? I am neither drunk, nor high.


----------



## orbit

LuchoIsLurking said:


> There is no beginning. Only an end.
> 
> Nothing. What they do is where the issue lies.


What do they do?

What's the most terrible thing

When was the exact point where you realized you were fucked


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> I was confused because the ordering of the images was not equivalent to the precedent ordering of the tagging of both of us. lol. Also because the meaning of the images may have surpassed my sensor brain.
> 
> I think most people see me as the fancy professor but sometimes I think I would more likely destroy the filing systems via blundering oblivion. However I would cover up my blunders with charm and verbosity. Most wouldn't notice my clumsy errors, and those who did would focus too much on observational psychology studies to let it bother them.


I make a point of using alphabet order. Prioritizing people is stressful.

U be the clumsy professor in a fancy room who accidentally breaks the tea cup but covers it up by maintaining eye contact and talking smartly while you discreetly move your feet to shove pieces under the rag.


----------



## Max

Curiphant said:


> What do they do?
> 
> What's the most terrible thing
> 
> When was the exact point where you realized you were fucked


They kill people for no reason. They want the worlds resources for themselves. They want to rule everything. They want to fuck us over.

When I opened my eyes.


----------



## orbit

I don't know which one is worse. Bob's Burgers or Family Guy


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I make a point of using alphabet order. Prioritizing people is stressful.
> 
> U be the clumsy professor in a fancy room who accidentally breaks the tea cup but covers it up by maintaining eye contact and talking smartly while you discreetly move your feet to shove pieces under the rag.


ALPHABETIC ORDER? Only Tes can use alphabetic ordering! You must be a Te then. I name thee ENTJ


----------



## Greyhart

curiphant said:


> i don't know which one is worse. Bob's burgers or family guy


what no bob's burgers doesn't use demeaning humor 3 main characters are women and they are hilarious and are not written as stereotypes.

THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN CAPS. WHY DID PERC MADE IT LOWER CASE.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> ALPHABETIC ORDER? Only Tes can use alphabetic ordering! You must be a Te then. I name thee ENTJ


Niiiiice.


----------



## Immolate

no support no honor


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> The song/video and alittlebear's reaction, of course :tongue:


Meow meow meow meow!!!


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I have no idea what I'm watching but I want more of it.


Were you inspired?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


>


OH MY GOSH TODAY I FOUND OUT ABOUT WHY HIS EYES AREN'T GREEN AND WHY IN THIS EXACT GIF HE LOOKS LIKE HE'S ABOUT TO CRY 

It's because he's wearing green contacts in this scene except he's allergic to them so he couldn't wear them for the rest of the movies


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Were you inspired?


How can I be inspired by myself 

//jk I'm such a loser lol you don't even//


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Meow meow meow meow!!!


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> How can I be inspired by myself
> 
> //jk I'm such a loser lol you don't even//


Some days I look at my past tests and teamworks and essays and I sigh about how great my past self was before I get inspired


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Some days I look at my past tests and teamworks and essays and I sigh about how great my past self was before I get inspired


I'm sorry.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


>


Gimme dat pusseh :3


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Gimme dat pusseh :3


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


>


Aw  

Can we fake Fe and categrash a party together? ;D


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Aw
> 
> Can we fake Fe and categrash a party together? ;D


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


>


Pwease??  :'(


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Pwease??  :'(



* *


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> * *


 Aw.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> so Fe


I think it's Fi-Te, tbh

anyone lurking has my approval of dismantling and challenging my pov.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I think it's Fi-Te, tbh
> 
> anyone lurking has my approval of dismantling and challenging my pov.


Explain?


----------



## orbit

Well it was a song about not feeling pressurized and dumping Johnny as far as I'm aware of

That's my guess


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Any of you prone to  "Let all Oz be agreed - I'm wicked through and through" reactions? Like if you are being perceived in a bad way you just go "Oh, yeah? OK then, watch it."? Maybe not now but as a teen? Because this is how I ended up maintaining a hardcore delinquent image despite the fact that when skipping lessons I'd hide some place quiet, read, write, and listen to the radio. :| Nerd delinquent. But for everyone else I didn't rebuke "You drinking/smoking/fucking somewhere aren't you?!" rumors. I think only my parents and bff knew. For others I was "Yeah, I do what I want." including for teachers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still have some of this attitude left.


Only when my inner ENTP comes out)


> For the record I think both @angelcat and @hoopla are ISFJs just one is more of professor in a fancy study room and the other one is this kind of a professor. My friend is more of later sort too. Major banana geek and weeaboo.


Are all ISFJs professors or just them? Do I get to be a professor too now that I'm (officially?) ISFJ? Maybe kind of a


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Well it was a song about not feeling pressurized and dumping Johnny as far as I'm aware of
> 
> That's my guess


Still focused on people and social relationships.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Still focused on people and social relationships.


Dang.


----------



## Fern

alittlebear said:


> This is definitely not what I expected when I got on today. I went to bed convinced I was an ISFJ. May I ask where you see my Ni (not an exhausted analysis, but just some things)? Yesterday and the day before a few members mentioned that it seemed I didn't have any, so I'm interested in what you see as an Ni user that they are not seeing as Ni.
> 
> And thank you for dropping by. Yes, the thread is ridiculous.


It's very hard to explain, but since you've asked me so graciously to expound (twice actually - sorry!), I will definitely make the effort to explain myself.


It's mostly an inexplicable vibe I get from you.
Something about your writing style and line of thought seems more reminiscent of Ni-Se, and I remember you explained certain activities that wore you out... shopping I believe was one?
And this seemed more indicative of lower Se, not prominent Si or Ne.
There were other things you mentioned that drained and energized you as well, but I can't quite recall perfectly 


Also the way you deal with others is honestly pretty magical, and obviously ENFJ's don't have a monopoly hold on that kind of thing, but I can't ignore it. You always seem to be able to say just the right thing at just the right time, giving an appropriate level of self-disclosure to make others feel at ease, recognizing all points people on your threads make (not just the ones you like) and just generally making people feel appreciated.

ISFJ or ESFJ or ENFJ or... LMNOP, I'm sure you'll figure it out in time 

I also think the fact that you're a type 2 (correct me if I'm wrong on that count) makes people subconsciously assume you're an SJ type, which is understandable but not always the case - especially with Fe users... Just a thought.
But obviously *you're *the expert on you! I think I find myself saying that on every Type Me thread, but it's the truth :laughing:

Have you ever thought of considering INFJ? Just curious


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> Only when my inner ENTP comes out)
> 
> Are all ISFJs professors or just them? Do I get to be a professor too now that I'm (officially?) ISFJ? Maybe kind of a


AHAHAHAH.

A+.

Welcome, btw, to the land of ISFJs. I've always liked you. You can stay.


----------



## Max

Apparently I am actually ENxP. Makes sense too.
ENxP 784.


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> AHAHAHAH.
> 
> A+.
> 
> Welcome, btw, to the land of ISFJs. I've always liked you. You can stay.











Yay! thanks)


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> Yay! thanks)


She couldn't have kicked you out anyway, alittlebear is master of the house here unfortunately


----------



## To_august

Shinynotshiny's pumpkin example made me think about the associative-synthetic thinking, that is shared by both Ni and Si. I don't usually buy the nostalgic crap that people put into Si, but think it could be just closer to the feeling side of things, and the reason why I find it so unrelatable.


> Intellectual LevelStatics tend towards fragmentary-analytic thinking; *Dynamics tend towards associative-synthetic thinking*.
> Analysis, as defined by most sources, is the division of a whole into clearly delimited parts. Analytical work is meant to delineate boundaries. *Whereas synthesis is akin to associativity, i.e. the association of two or more concepts by fuzzy, rapid connections whereby one occurrence immediately evokes others to mind. Resulting in a coherent synthetic image with blurred internal boundaries.*
> The epitomization of Dynamic cognition formed the explanatory basis for the nature of mental processes in the theory of associationism. Aristotle first advanced the idea that *spontaneous mental images can converge so closely together that the similarity or contrast of multiple associations emerges on the basis of contiguity.* Later John Locke argued that ideas of any degree of complexity emerge from the process of associating simple sensations. In this case he contrasted the association of ideas against purely semantic connections, which in his opinion were secondary.
> Indeed, eidetic mnemonic techniques showed that with aid of visual association, *it is possible to connect anything in the mind*. Here are some of the eidetic memory techniques originating in antiquity.
> Roman orator Cicero used the 'method of loci' to memorize his speeches by heart. He mentally laid out information in the corners of a room, mentally returning to one corner or another to extract as required. Medieval Dominican monks studying rhetoric used the same method. They took a road familiar to them to the last detail and mentally walked down it, successively laying out along the road statements which would be presented before the audience. While speaking, they would mentally walk the route, 'raising' key concepts they had previously laid there.
> Contemporary advertising cleverly exploits the Dynamic side of human cognition. It is mainly based on the *mechanism of association by context* (manly cowboy next to a pack of cigarettes) or contrast (ordinary laundry detergent vs. advertised laundry detergent). Judging by this means of consumer inducement, advertising presumably influences Statics much less than Dynamics. Statics memorize more effectively when material is structured in rigid semantic relationships, where each concept is fixed in memory cells like a computer.
> Thus, *Dynamics are stronger in synthesis operations (not mere simple connections, but confluence of associations)*, while Statics are stronger in analysis (not just any separation, but clear and precise delineations).


All this past-is-Si-future-is-Ni thing doesn't make sense to me. I'm not nostalgic in the least. I can of course associate pumpkins with sadness, but in order to do so, there must be some influential event that would allow me to make the sentimental connection. Like, I had certain song-ringtone on my phone when someone called me and told that my relative died, since then whenever I hear the song I get uneasy and unpleasant feeling - association with death and loss. But doing all this weird nostalgic stuff on a day to day basis sounds just crazy. "Oh! Wow! This printer reminds me of my last job! This chair reminds me of my studying years! And this pen reminds me of... some other shit". Hell, no! Who even does that? Old people perhaps? Yes, must be them. I think so many younger ones think that their parents/relatives are SJs exactly because of their age. The younger one is, the more they are oriented towards the future, simply because they don't have the past yet, don't have the experience that intrudes into their thinking. All the roads and possibilities are open. The whole world exists only in the future. The older one is, the more past they take on and thus gain something in it to refer to.

There's something feely about this sort of nostalgic connections that makes them highly unrelatable to me. I am as boring as to take the same route home everyday, but damn, I'm not doing it because I have sentimental attachment to the asphalt I'm walking on, or to the buildings I'm passing by. I simply found out that it's the most time-efficient route.

If Si is oriented towards the past, conflating all the stuff around them with personal bias, then I can't help but to agree with those who insist that Si people should like memorabilia and their houses are like museums. And I'm like the opposite of this. I don't need any objects. I don't need material possessions. I'm the antihoarder. What I need is the experience, the knowledge, the ideas, all the things that exist only in the mind. I already have everything I need. I'm connected to everything I value. As Bjork sang: _"You've never been to Niagara Falls? I have seen water, it's water, that's all..."_ I have access to the basics from where I can go wherever I want to. I don't need excessiveness.

I digressed. 
I have no idea what I'm talking about anymore...


----------



## orbit

You were talking about how senseless Si is about nostalgia and association can be Ni or Si. And how materialistic Se and Si seem to be and how that's not true for you. That's how it seemed like to me. 

One of my questions, too, was how prominent Ni/Si in every day life and how often the general application is applied? Do you use Ni and Si powers on every object or just like a handful and then go on with the rest of your life? Every object would be rather detracting... And how conscious is? Do you literally think your Ni and Siness or is it just a niggling in the back of your head?

{Edit: I started rambling too and now what follows is very sketchy.}

Si seems to value respect a lot? At least to me. That bench, I respect, because that holds connections to me. 

To my lowly, uneducated self, Ni seems to hold connections to an aura or mist of something higher or lower or in some other dimension, while Si holds it to the current dimension but sees how the dimension changed? Or respects the dimension

Se is neutral and sees the dimension as it is. Ne sees what the dimension could be but I wouldn't know and something seems off. Ne isn't as personal as Si obviously. They see connections of the dimension but in far off places

Maybe it's like a map of a town. The Ni sees a town that's covered with a light mist(?) that's rather helpful in direction or the concepts of the town(?), Si sees all the towns through the lenses of them or how it relates to them, Ne sees the town and how it relates to other towns (???), and Se sees the town.

A town view of Ni, maybe a gut feeling? Like you see a town and you get a sense of it and then you fit it into your world view. Ni seems very applicable. How does this town's culture fit into the person's kingdom view? What is the meaning of this town? 
Probably wrong. 

Si would respect the town's culture maybe. I'm just expressing my view in hopes for correction. 

Ne would tie the town's cultures together? 

Se would appreciate the town's culture for the sake of the town's culture?

Si seems the most personal

Se is the most impersonal

I'm probably wrong and basing this own stereotypes but oh well. Actually I know I'm wrong. Functions are more nuanced than this and convulted.


----------



## Greyhart

I've ha dial up in 2005 and 2006 ^_^ Then paid what at the moment was 35$~ for dial up speed. But DSL and unlimited.



Oswin said:


> Are all ISFJs professors or just them? Do I get to be a professor too now that I'm (officially?) ISFJ? *Maybe kind of a
> *


I'd suggested that getting looked at. xD Surgery does fantastic things nowadays.



hoopla said:


> I'm going to pull an @Curiphant here and take something too seriously. I believe children are still developing and adjusting to their environment, meaning quirks will be inevitable (though specific idiosyncrasies will gain more notoriety than others). Let kids be kids man. Way too uptight. People also are not creative enough in regards to handling children either. Too streamlined. Maybe more breaks would partially solve the ADHD "epidemic'.


Oh, yeah. I had "ADHD" too. Based of mom's complaints that I didn't want to do boring stuff. Fortunately mom was wise enough not to add any more medication in addition to anti-allergy and anti-asthma I already had. There's a difference between a kid who makes a conscious decision to not to do something, and kid who can't concentrate even if they try to.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Speaking of ADHD, as a kid I was diagnosed with it. And I got diagnosed with Aspergers too. I didn't wanna tell anyone, because of judgements. Would that along with Enneagram influence one's type? @hoopla @fair phantom @Curiphant @shinynotshiny


From out point of view it can. Type 7 is "pseudo-ADHD" type after all. It's up to you to see if it affects your world view or not.



Curiphant said:


> I'm afraid that is terminable as well and inoperable.
> 
> This thread will end with alittlebear realizing she is Ni after all


That is the goal!



hoopla said:


> You would love Emilie Autumn's (admittedly overprice, but I was 16) book.
> 
> Though I'm afraid I don't need a film to rewatch the experience:
> 
> The Entire Case Records from a Victorian Asylum Are Now Online | Motherboard
> 
> I am very snobby about period films as well as anything "based on a true story".
> 
> I also like to kill fun.


Talk about real nightmare fuel.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Haha.
> 
> Yes it is. You know what else is funny? That INxxs are the ones usually stereotyped as having Autism, yet they aren't as 'left brained' as ESTJs. I think INxxs are stereotyped as falling on the ASD the most, because they are usually the most introverted introverts, when in reality, a lot of ASD disorders have more to do with communication than being social. You know?


They are stereotyped because of percieved poor social skills or lack of interest in socialising which is not all the same as ASD.

@Curiphant I usually see maps as ideas of what could be there. Assuming I'm not looking at it with intention to find out how to get to point B. Town metaphor seems like a hard for me to use to explain Ne. Cosmos works for me the best.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> She couldn't have kicked you out anyway, alittlebear is master of the house here unfortunately












I couldn't have, actually. I can only growl with hostility. Only the moderators can truly kick someone out.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> AHAHAHAH.
> 
> A+.
> 
> Welcome, btw, to the land of ISFJs. I've always liked you. You can stay.


I'm just saying... If I'm an ISFJ, I will argue that @Oswin must be an ESFJ. Her Ne is so much more prominent than mine is. (But she is soft and gentle like an ISFJ in her demeanor.) (So it does work.)


----------



## Darkbloom

I _really_ don't think you're an ISFJ,9w1+anxiety looks ISFJ but you don't have Si,or Ne,not even inferior Ne,you just don't have it,at all.
Imo


----------



## Immolate

To_august said:


> Shinynotshiny's pumpkin example made me think about the associative-synthetic thinking, that is shared by both Ni and Si. I don't usually buy the nostalgic crap that people put into Si, but think it could be just closer to the feeling side of things, and the reason why I find it so unrelatable.
> 
> All this past-is-Si-future-is-Ni thing doesn't make sense to me. I'm not nostalgic in the least. I can of course associate pumpkins with sadness, but in order to do so, there must be some influential event that would allow me to make the sentimental connection. Like, I had certain song-ringtone on my phone when someone called me and told that my relative died, since then whenever I hear the song I get uneasy and unpleasant feeling - association with death and loss. But doing all this weird nostalgic stuff on a day to day basis sounds just crazy. "Oh! Wow! This printer reminds me of my last job! This chair reminds me of my studying years! And this pen reminds me of... some other shit". Hell, no! Who even does that? Old people perhaps? Yes, must be them. I think so many younger ones think that their parents/relatives are SJs exactly because of their age. The younger one is, the more they are oriented towards the future, simply because they don't have the past yet, don't have the experience that intrudes into their thinking. All the roads and possibilities are open. The whole world exists only in the future. The older one is, the more past they take on and thus gain something in it to refer to.
> 
> There's something feely about this sort of nostalgic connections that makes them highly unrelatable to me. I am as boring as to take the same route home everyday, but damn, I'm not doing it because I have sentimental attachment to the asphalt I'm walking on, or to the buildings I'm passing by. I simply found out that it's the most time-efficient route.
> 
> If Si is oriented towards the past, conflating all the stuff around them with personal bias, then I can't help but to agree with those who insist that Si people should like memorabilia and their houses are like museums. And I'm like the opposite of this. I don't need any objects. I don't need material possessions. I'm the antihoarder. What I need is the experience, the knowledge, the ideas, all the things that exist only in the mind. I already have everything I need. I'm connected to everything I value. As Bjork sang: _"You've never been to Niagara Falls? I have seen water, it's water, that's all..."_ I have access to the basics from where I can go wherever I want to. I don't need excessiveness.
> 
> I digressed.
> I have no idea what I'm talking about anymore...


One of the problems I've found is that you'll find more descriptions of Si as it relates to Fe rather than Te. I also can't relate to the nostalgia that some Si users describe, but I do experience nostalgia or create associations between objects if there's a strong enough stimulus. I think this gets lumped into Si when the truth is anyone can experience this kind of conditioning (such as your example of hearing a specific ringtone when you learn of someone's death). For me, Si is one of the harder functions to understand because it can mimic behaviors like anxiety and because descriptions are so riddled with bias and misconceptions.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> @Curiphant I usually see maps as ideas of what could be there. Assuming I'm not looking at it with intention to find out how to get to point B. Town metaphor seems like a hard for me to use to explain Ne. Cosmos works for me the best.


Thank you for explaining this! <3


----------



## orbit

Functions shouldn't be described individually, it seems, but how functions work together which basically defeats the purpose of individual functions? I don't know.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Functions shouldn't be described individually, it seems, but how functions work together which basically defeats the purpose of individual functions? I don't know.


It's more that we have to account for the way functions interact with each other and recognizing that Si (for example) isn't going to look the same in an ISTJ and ISFJ.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Functions shouldn't be described individually, it seems, but how functions work together which basically defeats the purpose of individual functions? I don't know.


Have you gotten confused with Socionics yet? 

People have different opinions, but it definitely describes functions both desperately and when used individually for a person. 

Socionics - the16types.info - Type Descriptions


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> It's more that we have to account for the way functions interact with each other and recognizing that Si (for example) isn't going to look the same in an ISTJ and ISFJ.


That seems a better way of looking at it ^^

I'm not sure how much I can get into typing. It seems so fluid and inconsistent and full of exceptions to me that I don't know if I trust anything. Like there's so many nuances that it would take a whole lot of people's insights to collectively sense and yeah… I'll bide my time and watch MBTI for a while until I'll get bored. 

And I'm wrong about a hundred things and ignorant and my heart can't take it. Just kidding. 

Actually, logically there's nothing stopping me and I could be very well interested in Socionics. 

I don't know. I guess I'm not sure if it's a project I think it's worth committing to.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Thank you for explaining this! <3


Did that make sense? xD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Fern said:


> It's very hard to explain, but since you've asked me so graciously to expound (twice actually - sorry!), I will definitely make the effort to explain myself.
> 
> 
> It's mostly an inexplicable vibe I get from you.
> Something about your writing style and line of thought seems more reminiscent of Ni-Se, and I remember you explained certain activities that wore you out... shopping I believe was one?
> And this seemed more indicative of lower Se, not prominent Si or Ne.
> There were other things you mentioned that drained and energized you as well, but I can't quite recall perfectly
> 
> 
> Also the way you deal with others is honestly pretty magical, and obviously ENFJ's don't have a monopoly hold on that kind of thing, but I can't ignore it. You always seem to be able to say just the right thing at just the right time, giving an appropriate level of self-disclosure to make others feel at ease, recognizing all points people on your threads make (not just the ones you like) and just generally making people feel appreciated.
> 
> ISFJ or ESFJ or ENFJ or... LMNOP, I'm sure you'll figure it out in time
> 
> I also think the fact that you're a type 2 (correct me if I'm wrong on that count) makes people subconsciously assume you're an SJ type, which is understandable but not always the case - especially with Fe users... Just a thought.
> But obviously *you're *the expert on you! I think I find myself saying that on every Type Me thread, but it's the truth :laughing:
> 
> Have you ever thought of considering INFJ? Just curious


Did I ask you twice? I didn't mean to pressure you to respond, but if am very grateful you did. I've been pausing to comment because I've been pondering it all morning. 

I think @TelepathicGoose may have been partially correct that I want to be an ISFJ. ISFJ would be easier to accept. TS the most likely to type. I could tell people I was ISFJ without being scared I was sounding too haughty and self-important. The description fits me. People could see me there. As @Living dead mentioned, ISFJ 9 very much fits an anxious Fe-using person.

It is the opposite with INFJ. How many people claim to be INFJs? I feel the term has become meaningless. If I said on my blog I was an INFJ, who would believe me? No one who knows the slightest bit about MBTI. Everyone - and I mean most people - say they are INFJs. I think claiming to be an INFJ (most of the time) says more about someone's ignorance of type theory than it does about their personality inclinations. 

With ENFJ, it was a little better. Not many people claim to be ENFJs. But INFJ... That's too far. Even if we realized that my functions had me at Ni-dominant, I would be hesitant to identify myself as INFJ. I realize this is more than a little ridiculous... but honestly it's how I am feeling about the matter, and why I have been so hesitant to take on INFJ as my type. 

I can't express how much your comments touched me. While I do always hope that I am able to acknowledge people as I want to, and to... not touch them, but help them... Regardless if any FJ could do that, I'm glad that someone sees me doing that. It's silly, but it is really something I aim for (not just here but in life in general, honestly). 

Those introductory matters aside, regarding this stuff leading to my type...

On INFJ, it's ridiculous how much I relate to Socionics IEI description. I think it is me, perfectly. To a T. I've thought so ever since I came across it at the beginning of my MBTI journey under a topic called "INFJ subtypes" (I didn't realize then it was Socionics). I went "That's me." I'm hesitant to count that, though, considering that so many people relate to IEI, and of course I am always cautious of the Forer Effect. 

(And I have not read the ISFp profile. I know I do not, unfortunately, relate to Si in Socionics, especially as described by the ESFJ profile, but perhaps it would be different with ISFp.) 

As for Type 2... I've identified as Type 2 since I joined the forum, but we're actually hooked on 9 now (with a weak 2 fix). While @Greyhart is right that some 9 things are anxiety/depression-induced, I think my wanting to be nothing and just stand aside and help people from a distance, just lightly influence them... I think that's always going to be me. I can't imagine not being like that. I think I have the 2 core motivation, but I am not victim to the 2 vices while I am very more victim to 9's vices. 

The thing is... 9 is associated with both Fi and Pi. As an ENFJ, I would be far from those functions. I don't think 9 ENFJ is common. 9 IFJ would make much more sense (especially considering that there's about -5% chance I'm an Fi-type). 

I also wonder how my instincts affect my type... Because I am fairly confident that I have a strong SO instinct. I think that very much could account for what people see as my Fe... I think I do have Fe, of course, but that Fe could seem magnified by my overly strong SO instinct. 

As for getting tired out... I do get tired out pretty easily. Not by some things - school just energizes me, learning energizes me, museums energize me, certain things that make my mind spread and grow more solid energize me - but by other things, yes. Shopping is certainly one of them. I get very impatient when shopping (I know I waste a lot of time, but window shopping feels like a pure waste of time). I'm about to go to a mini party with my family, and already I know I am going to be stealing away to read in a corner after we do our greetings, until the atmosphere settles down and we get into what I consider more meaningful, deeper talk, and I can casually sit in the corner and listen. I cannot bear small talk. Of course I am polite, and if I am with my closest friends I do not mind small talk (especially if I'm one on one with anyone, small talk is fine), but when I'm with a group of people I do not know very well small talk just makes me uncomfortable. I'm not very good at it unless it's one on one. Group discussions also make me antsy. It's difficult for me to speak up, and difficult to acknowledge and comfort everyone, which is partially my anxiety/introversion and partially my Fe but perhaps partially something else as well. 

Thank you for your words that I am an expert on me. Of course that's obvious, but it's always comforting and a necessary reinforcement to have on a typing thread. I am very close to just checking out Jung's _Psychological Types_ from the library and figuring this type stuff out for myself. While this website is helpful, I feel like I am getting only some solid content that I have to find through the many somewhat gaseous interpretations of type... I would like to go to the core and figure this out for myself. I should have done that long ago, but now I think that will help me most. 

I think that covers everything, yes? Thank you again so much for your kind response - I know I've said that before but again I don't think I can say that again - and please know your words have been added to my things to put into consideration.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Apparently I am actually ENxP. Makes sense too.
> ENxP 784.


You are not a Ne dom and unlikely to be 7. Counter-phobic 6w7 is most likely.

Let me tell about 7's attitude.

I avoid watching dramas because a thought of getting upset sets me out of the window. I'm ignoring my half-brother's attempts at communicating because he poops his pessimism all over my life-party. I can't stand living with my parents because their worrying about situations and details set me into the state of a constant stress. "Boredom" is a negative emotion that has to be avoided at any cost as well. Thus any boring, tedious or repetitive tasks are either ignored or made as short as possible. I rarely wash floors in my flat, I didn't clean my cooking pot in over 3 weeks and just ate breakfast out of a dish from 2 days ago. I also cook the simplest and easiest dishes possible since I find cooking incredibly boring and thus it must be avoided. I'd never cook at all but I am too poor to afford take-out food and don't have a microwave. I avoid people that complain a lot because it ruins my state of enthusiastic gluttony. If something becomes stale I abandon it thus I have a legion of books and games that I dropped either half way or just before last boss/last chapter because coming back to them seemed boring. Same with movies or TV shows. Just thinking about negative outcomes or bad situations turns me uncomfortable and makes me want to consume something fun and/or interesting. Once something becomes too familiar or too predictable I begin to experience longing for something refreshing. *For me it always seems like something better is out there, that what I have is not enough.*






Sure my attitude isn't in healthy levels of a type and somewhat extreme but it _highlights_ desire for fresh and exciting and overall optimistic outlook 7s have. Again, your _main_ type is something you live with every second of your life. It's not "sometimes" attitude. It's just normal day by day you. Alone you, in company you. Getting read for bed you.

I see no reasons to doubt you are SJ. I still stand by ESTJ. Type 6w7 cp So/Sx or maybe Sx/So


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> You missed yesterday. It was random like spam section. Things happened.


I think I just stopped trying to follow everything after a while.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, according to MBTI, the majority of people are SJs.
> 
> I'd like to differ, however, because I feel as if the majority of Americans seem to be SPs. Although that may be due to where I live, ahah.


Mmm... I don't think that its like that. I think MBTI is pretty evenly distributed globally? A culture may seem especially SP or SJ, and I think that people are impacted by the culture they exist in, but I wouldn't say that more SJs live here than there or etc. More people may act SP in California and NF in New York and SJ in the South but I still think types are evenly distributed (as principle, I guess).


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Mmm... I don't think that its like that. I think MBTI is pretty evenly distributed globally? A culture may seem especially SP or SJ, and I think that people are impacted by the culture they exist in, but I wouldn't say that more SJs live here than there or etc. More people may act SP in California and NF in New York and SJ in the South but I still think types are evenly distributed (as principle, I guess).


Yes, this is true.

I guess it just seems that way where I live (which is in the south-east.)

Maybe I'm a bit too trusting of the MBTI estimate of type percentages. (Probably the Te in me)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> And yet... While there will never be a perfect government, a perfect school system, a perfect world... I don't see why that should keep us from fighting for one. It shouldn't be this way. This girl should not be bullied. She is, and society will always have its victims, but we will try to teach these students love and show them how to appreciate this girl, so she may know friendship and become one of them. Society should not discriminate. It will, society itself will always discriminate, but that does not mean we should not fight society when it does discriminate and do our bests to show not normalize discrimination within society.
> 
> That's how I approach life. No, it will never be perfect... But aim for perfection anyway. (If not always in school projects and lawn work, at least in social relations and humanitarian matters.)


*nods emphatically* This is how I approach things. 

Honestly a lot of what you wrote just seems like being realistic? I feel like if you don't try to deal with the world as it is then that is more a sign of unhealthy functions or immaturity than it is a sign of Si. :/


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yes, this is true.
> 
> I guess it just seems that way where I live (which is in the south-east.)
> 
> Maybe I'm a bit too trusting of the MBTI estimate of type percentages. (Probably the Te in me)


I also am not so sure about type distribution. I think that there's probably more Ns in this world than predicted, and while it goes against perhaps that I just said it does seem that intuitive thinking is becoming more common, either through generational type percentages or if it's just our culture in general. But... Hmm. I'm not sure really.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> *nods emphatically* This is how I approach things.
> 
> Honestly a lot of what you wrote just seems like being realistic? I feel like if you don't try to deal with the world as it is then that is more a sign of unhealthy functions or immaturity than it is a sign of Si. :/


I also think what I described isn't exactly uncommon. I think it sounds different and people need reminding of it when people are engaged in a pragmatic mock political debate about how we should handle society's problems and someone says "Well it'll never be perfect, you've just got to deal with the facts"... Bringing up the concept of striving towards perfection even though it is impossible seems pretty radical in those scenarios, but I think when we pull out of our political arguments and negative perceptions that a lot of people of many types can agree with what I described.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> I also am not so sure about type distribution. I think that there's probably more Ns in this world than predicted, and while it goes against perhaps that I just said it does seem that intuitive thinking is becoming more common, either through generational type percentages or if it's just our culture in general. But... Hmm. I'm not sure really.


I think the intuitive style of culture has been increased, you're right. Especially through the amount of social movements in the past century and also...the _internet. _ I don't know whether intuitive's are getting any more common (or if it's just more an open-ness to our ideas) however I'm not closed to that hypothesis. 

You're very observant of how our society works. (Which is once again why I think you may be an xNFJ)


----------



## fair phantom

(I should note though that my parents do NOT think I am realistic in the amount of change I think is possible or the ways I think things can change so what do I know lol).


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> (I should note though that my parents do NOT think I am realistic in the amount of change I think is possible or the ways I think things can change so what do I know lol).


My parents don't think I am realistic either but I am. I just prefer to focus on progress and positive aspects instead of bad outcomes that could happen... I just described a relentless optimist.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> My parents don't think I am realistic either but I am. I just prefer to focus on progress and positive aspects instead of bad outcomes that could happen... I just described a relentless optimist.


For me, it depends on the day: too pessimistic, too idealistic, too radical :|


----------



## 68097

It feels like we are getting into massive hair-splitting at this point. 

You should, cognitively be able to tell if you have Ne or Se. Ne is an all-encompassing, broadening worldview that is continually expanding outward, reaching across multitudes of time and space to pluck an idea from HERE and put it with THAT. Se is a desire for new experiences and a need to immerse oneself in them, with no thought for ideas stemming from that experience, merely for dwelling in the moment. Se is recklessness (let's go jump off a bridge!). Ne is promiscuous (why yes, I'll have that idea, thanks!).

Regarding myself, I'm also starting to think that I'm just a freakishly developed SJ who defies all the parameters of what an SJ should be, because I am nothing like anyone else I know, or anything like I OUGHT to be by Si-dom standards, so comparing yourself to me, or me defending SJs on the whole is relatively pointless, because a great many of them do ascribe to certain stereotypes. Just because I evade most of them doesn't mean most people are like me. 

I just feel like ... if you have Si, you ought to KNOW what it is. Trying to describe it is impossible. You just KNOW how things work, and how you work within them.

Si has a reputation for traditionalism for a reason. If you think the past is dead, boring, and should have no bearing on the present or the future, if you have no problem demolishing it, you're probably not Si.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat I think you are right about the "hair-splitting," although I keep trying to resist that. I really do need to go to Jung and figure this out on my own. (I have the same problem with Enneagram - too much getting caught up in clouds, not enough getting to the core.) 

I actually think you are a wonderful model of an SJ. Because you do go against the norm, you and @hoopla. You are not Keirsey's SJ, but you still identify as Si dom under Jung, and the way you see it can be very impactful for other SJs (possibly and possibly not like me) who are similar. 

It's still so hard to know if I use Se or Ne. Yesterday I felt very Se, as I mentioned a bit jokingly during the chatting time. My sister and her friend couldn't understand why I was so fascinated with seeing what I could do with this volleyball. Can I make it bounce up there? Where will it go? How can I manipulate it? What makes the ball go down and away from you and what makes it come directly back to you? How can I make sure I catch the ball with ease? I was fascinated by the ball and how it interacted physically with other physical objects. There were no ideas involved. At one point I yelled "If you love something let it go and it will come back to you" and made my sister's friend laugh as I threw the ball and it came back to me, but that seemed more like the natural display of a natural principle than anything. 

Ideas, though... I like ideas if they make sense. I do not like to just accept ideas because they're there. I have to study them. I have to test them. And then I have to arrange them in my already compiled, pressed, and organized understanding of ideas. In a way, I think it could resemble Ne - because I do look for universal ideas and I try to find ideas that stretch across boundaries, principles - but what I do feels very much more like Ni to me. (At least, how I understand Ni.) That picture of everything zapping into one understanding. That's what I seek to do. That's what my mind does. 

But we are getting in circles here (which is hypocritical of me, since I try to pick at circular conversation and get impatient with it until I am the cause of it). I need to read Jung and figure out what type of FJ I am. I think that's really going to be the solution.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> [MENTION=68097]
> 
> It's still so hard to know if I use Se or Ne. Yesterday I felt very Se, as I mentioned a bit jokingly during the chatting time. My sister and her friend couldn't understand why I was so fascinated with seeing what I could do with this volleyball. Can I make it bounce up there? Where will it go? How can I manipulate it? What makes the ball go down and away from you and what makes it come directly back to you? How can I make sure I catch the ball with ease? I was fascinated by the ball and how it interacted physically with other physical objects. There were no ideas involved. At one point I yelled "If you love something let it go and it will come back to you" and made my sister's friend laugh as I threw the ball and it came back to me, but that seemed more like the natural display of a natural principle than anything.


That is the most Se thing I have ever read in my entire life. Especially Se coupled with a higher-ranking Ni.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> [MENTION=68097]It's still so hard to know if I use Se or Ne. Yesterday I felt very Se, as I mentioned a bit jokingly during the chatting time. My sister and her friend couldn't understand why I was so fascinated with seeing what I could do with this volleyball. Can I make it bounce up there? Where will it go? How can I manipulate it? What makes the ball go down and away from you and what makes it come directly back to you? How can I make sure I catch the ball with ease? I was fascinated by the ball and how it interacted physically with other physical objects. There were no ideas involved. At one point I yelled "If you love something let it go and it will come back to you" and made my sister's friend laugh as I threw the ball and it came back to me, but that seemed more like the natural display of a natural principle than anything.
> 
> Ideas, though... I like ideas if they make sense. I do not like to just accept ideas because they're there. I have to study them. I have to test them. And then I have to arrange them in my already compiled, pressed, and organized understanding of ideas. In a way, I think it could resemble Ne - because I do look for universal ideas and I try to find ideas that stretch across boundaries, principles - but what I do feels very much more like Ni to me. (At least, how I understand Ni.) That picture of everything zapping into one understanding. That's what I seek to do. That's what my mind does.
> 
> But we are getting in circles here (which is hypocritical of me, since I try to pick at circular conversation and get impatient with it until I am the cause of it). I need to read Jung and figure out what type of FJ I am. I think that's really going to be the solution.


This sounds very Ti to me, actually.

I think I was wrong to type you as an extrovert.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Ideas, though... I like ideas if they make sense. I do not like to just accept ideas because they're there. I have to study them. I have to test them. And then I have to arrange them in my already compiled, pressed, and organized understanding of ideas. In a way,* I think it could resemble Ne* - because I do look for universal ideas and I try to find ideas that stretch across boundaries, principles - but what I do feels very much more like Ni to me. (At least, how I understand Ni.) That picture of everything zapping into one understanding. That's what I seek to do. That's what my mind does.











That ain't Ne. That's Ni and/or Ti.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> This sounds very Ti to me, actually.
> 
> I think I was wrong to type you as an extrovert.


But I'm about to go to a party and probably read for an hour?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> But I'm about to go to a party and probably read for an hour?


Hahahaha 

I used to think something was wrong with me because I don't really enjoy big parties


----------



## 68097

Going to my book for reference (how Hermione of me): "Understanding Yourself and Others: An Introduction to the Personality Type Code." Which is? MBTI? Jung-influenced? No idea.

Si/Ne:

*Si-aux (ESXJ*: Like a supportive parent, they are helpful by building on prior experiences and knowledge to support and help people. Noticing when something doesn't match what was expected, they communicate the discrepancy so it can be corrected. They like recalling detailed data to support the decisions that they see need to be made and readily recognize familiar elements so that they can get even more information to clarify what is expected. They trust common experiences and feel energized by participating in traditions or other customary activities, knowing that these common experiences will helps solidify the group, family, or team. When learning or trying something new, they like to follow the work, ideas, and examples of others who have been successful and deserve their respect. Reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience gives them a sense of security in where they are going in the future.

Others may view them as sticking to what is known, tried, and true, quickly closing off discussions that seem chaotic with tangential ideas. They may become disgruntled when the qualities of something they like -- such as taste, color, or smell -- change for no good reason. Under stress, they may get too tied to following the way they've always done things.

*Tert-Ne*: Can enjoy spending time exploring new ideas and noticing hidden meanings. Can truly enjoy imaginative links and appreciate brainstorming as long as it feels under control and somewhat time limited. Engaging in conversations where potential possibilities and hypotheses are explored can be energizing at times, helping them connect the details of their wealth of data an experiences. They often have a desire to learn about the unknown and will openly seek out those less-structured, less-tangible learning environments that can help them become more skilled at what they do. They can also enjoy somewhat silly things that suggest a lighter side of life. 

When younger, they tend to distrust most of what comes to them as "strange knowings." Later, they can be quite open to perceiving moments of synchronicity and will trust their intuitive sense of what path to follow next. In rare moments, they catch a glimpse of the hidden world, magical or spiritual, that lies behind the mundane. They look forward to these with excitement. 

Can be overwhelmed by too many possibilities, while feeling driven to decide; get disappointed when reality doesn't live up to their idealistic expectations. Tends toward seeing potential disasters or obstacles where none exist.

(Damn. My hand is tired. I'll paraphrase Ni/Se.)

VS:

Aux-Ni: Powerful insights into what's going to happen. Use that information to achieve goals and help others. Just know how things will turn out with people, relationships, organizations, or world concepts. Futuristic thinking, a sense of what may or may not happen, so they know where to direct their efforts. Often a solution will present itself out of the blue. Insightful. Adapting. 

Negatives: intent on following their vision, closed off to new ideas, bad with details. 

Tert-Se: enjoy pleasures of life, keen appreciation of the five senses. Expensive taste. Love to get in synch with objects and people. Enjoy physical activities. Opportunistic, very concerned with how they look and the overall presentation of something. Impulsive, distracted, over-indulging of their senses.

/done for the day, going to go watch The Thorn Birds.


----------



## Greyhart

I can't say just how much Ne isn't into unifying. Ti filters out the trash and tries to make it coherent but Ne just isn't into unifying or finding a single idea to assimilate all others... ... This makes me think Hawking is not a NTP.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> Going to my book for reference (how Hermione of me): "Understanding Yourself and Others: An Introduction to the Personality Type Code." Which is? MBTI? Jung-influenced? No idea.
> 
> Si/Ne:
> 
> *Si-aux (ESXJ*: Like a supportive parent, they are helpful by building on prior experiences and knowledge to support and help people. Noticing when something doesn't match what was expected, they communicate the discrepancy so it can be corrected. They like recalling detailed data to support the decisions that they see need to be made and readily recognize familiar elements so that they can get even more information to clarify what is expected. They trust common experiences and feel energized by participating in traditions or other customary activities, knowing that these common experiences will helps solidify the group, family, or team. When learning or trying something new, they like to follow the work, ideas, and examples of others who have been successful and deserve their respect. Reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience gives them a sense of security in where they are going in the future.
> 
> Others may view them as sticking to what is known, tried, and true, quickly closing off discussions that seem chaotic with tangential ideas. They may become disgruntled when the qualities of something they like -- such as taste, color, or smell -- change for no good reason. Under stress, they may get too tied to following the way they've always done things.
> 
> *Tert-Ne*: Can enjoy spending time exploring new ideas and noticing hidden meanings. Can truly enjoy imaginative links and appreciate brainstorming as long as it feels under control and somewhat time limited. Engaging in conversations where potential possibilities and hypotheses are explored can be energizing at times, helping them connect the details of their wealth of data an experiences. They often have a desire to learn about the unknown and will openly seek out those less-structured, less-tangible learning environments that can help them become more skilled at what they do. They can also enjoy somewhat silly things that suggest a lighter side of life.
> 
> When younger, they tend to distrust most of what comes to them as "strange knowings." Later, they can be quite open to perceiving moments of synchronicity and will trust their intuitive sense of what path to follow next. In rare moments, they catch a glimpse of the hidden world, magical or spiritual, that lies behind the mundane. They look forward to these with excitement.
> 
> Can be overwhelmed by too many possibilities, while feeling driven to decide; get disappointed when reality doesn't live up to their idealistic expectations. Tends toward seeing potential disasters or obstacles where none exist.
> 
> (Damn. My hand is tired. I'll paraphrase Ni/Se.)
> 
> VS:
> 
> Aux-Ni: Powerful insights into what's going to happen. Use that information to achieve goals and help others. Just know how things will turn out with people, relationships, organizations, or world concepts. Futuristic thinking, a sense of what may or may not happen, so they know where to direct their efforts. Often a solution will present itself out of the blue. Insightful. Adapting.
> 
> Negatives: intent on following their vision, closed off to new ideas, bad with details.
> 
> Tert-Se: enjoy pleasures of life, keen appreciation of the five senses. Expensive taste. Love to get in synch with objects and people. Enjoy physical activities. Opportunistic, very concerned with how they look and the overall presentation of something. Impulsive, distracted, over-indulging of their senses.
> 
> /done for the day, going to go watch The Thorn Birds.


From that, I would probably think I'm the latter rather than the former.

I'm so critical I apologize.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> That ain't Ne. That's Ni and/or Ti.


She could be confusing ideas for Ti, though.


----------



## Darkbloom

Ok,I'm definitely tert Se
Edit:maybe not XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat I can't believe you typed all of that. Thank you so much for it. I'm still trying to figure out which one would be more me, but I definitely appreciate that well-sourced material.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> I used to think something was wrong with me because I don't really enjoy big parties


Depends on the party for me.

"There's gon be a party! With the booze & music. Come!"









"U gotta wear a costume and/or we'll randomly assign u a partner via lottery. Also the theme is "flying raccoons in Wonderland!" Come?"


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> She could be confusing ideas for Ti, though.


Do you have a suggestion on how to know the difference? Ti and Ni?


----------



## 68097

Okay, because I can't stay away...

(after lunch, and after being a Si-stereotype: OMG, WHY CAN'T THEY MAKE FRIEND CHICKEN PROPERLY? IT'S TOO DRY. IT'S ALWAYS TOO DRY, THIS PLACE OVERCOOKS IT)

*The full aux-Ni profile*:

Helpful by getting powerful insights into what is likely to happen, and they use that information to achieve goals and help others. Sometimes they just know how things will turn out and what is going to happen with either an individual, a relationship, or a larger organization or world context. When considering the future, they often get a sense that something is or is not going to happen, so they easily know what to support and where to put their efforts. Often a whole solution to a problem will just present itself to them and they automatically know the way to take to reach the goal. When in touch with their intuition, they often immediately "see" a person's potential, path, and character with startling accuracy. They can give powerfully insightful advice. Sometimes, adapting may involve concealing or neglecting their intuitive gifts in order to better fit in and have their intuitions accepted.

... they may engage in Ni in an overprotective and stunting way. At times others may view them as intent on following the vision they have, closing off to new data so they can accomplish the vision. Under stress they may try to push through the solution they see without articulating the reasons or the details. They can get caught p in analyzing intuitive insights, relying on a mystical guide or super naturalism.

*Tert Se*: Often they enjoy the tangible pleasures of life and may have a keen appreciation of how things look, feel, smell, and taste. Orienting quickly to others, they easily get in sync physically with people and the things around them. They enjoy activities like singing and dancing, assuming they have some talent. And they easily engage in helping other people see opportunities for action among the rich variety of options and activities available. They really enjoy sharing the fun of recreation with others. Appearance is valued and they often do a lot to remain fit and attractive. 

When younger, they tend not to are much about the physical world except to please others and engage in group activity. If they feel fit, they may freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts and can enjoy the thrill of action and physical experience.s As they grow, they find exercise is their key to relaxing mental tension -- one of the few ways they live in the here and now. They learn to feel physically connected to others without losing themselves in the process.

Engaging in Se can be unsettling and disruptive at times. They can become distracted by irrelevant happenings around them and bring these up in conversation. They can waste time and resources on indulging their sense or preserving a youthful image.


----------



## 68097

Since ISFJ is being considered:

*Si-dom*: They have a profound knowing about how things have always been, and from that they get their own sense of certainty about how to do things. They are aware of what doesn't change, tapping into what is lasting to weather the storms of life. When presented with new information, details from past experiences. These details come quickly and they notice how what's new matches what is expected; it is either rejected or more detail is sought to clarify expectations. Often they recall with accurate detail how something was before and point out discrepancies from how things have always been compared to now. Reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience, they compare data against a storehouse of what is known to find whats' reliable. They gather lots of information over time to confirm a set standard. They trust common experience and feel energized by participating in traditions or other customary activities. They like to follow the work, ideas, and examples of others who have come before so they can pass these on and build on them. They find comfort in performing the same regular work or activity every day ant an even, steady pace.

Since Si is trusted, they may engage in it too much and use it in a dominating way. They may insist on sticking with what has been done before. They may also insist on adhering to tried and true methods and getting all the data from the past to support any new idea. Thus, others often view them as resistant to change or feel they are too slow as all the details get checked and filled in.

(Yup, that's me.)

With... *inferior Ne*:

While they want to see hidden meanings and interconnections, they may dismiss tangential ideas and implicit meanings. They may see the abstract weaving of many interrelated ideas as just a jumbled up bunch of nonsense worthy of notice. They are likely to quickly dismiss explorations of potential possibilities as a waste of time. they mostly just need time to reflect on and reconcile them with their expectations from what they so clearly know as fact.

Early in life, they may be prone to stick with literal interpretations rather than inferences and looser interpretations and tend not to see any possibility of situations changing from the way they are. Over time, they will give more credibility to those "strange knowings" they had previously tuned out and will be more open to moments of synchronicity or convergence. They become more patient with brainstorming and learn to trust what emerges rather than having it all figured out in advance. Later in life, they may become more spontaneous as they follow possibilities to see where they might lead and explore multiple meanings. 

They can become too engaged in this process, making impulsive decisions based on inferences alone. Or they may get overly tied to abstract concepts just because there is a lot of reported experience behind them. They can become concerned or suspicious about potential dangers and become risk avoident, increasingly limiting activities.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Do you have a suggestion on how to know the difference? Ti and Ni?


*Ne:* So, like, main character is a princess but like also a scientist and works as superhero and can summon demons. And has evil twin BROTHER. Who is like that Sailor scouts turns into super villainESS. And there also aliens trying to secretly take over the World! And shady government organization secretly controlled by Illuminati who cooperate with an Alliance of alien races. Did I mentioned there's an Alliance? Also MC is being pestered by her evil mirror-self from an alternate dimension. And she has LI. 2 LIs, OK. But can't choose one because she's devoted to her works as a royalty scientist superhero demon summoner. Oh, and Illuminati are dogs.









*Ti:* ... 

















What the fuck is wrong with you. No, stop. None of that makes sense. There's like 10 different stories there. What the fuck with that Mary Sue?! Pick one!

*Ne:* (((((((((((









*Alternatively:*

Ne: SO BORED LET’S DO STUFF like plan 1 or 2 or 3
Ti: well, 1 and 3 are completely stupid
Ne: wait also 4 and 2.1
Ti: 4 sounds OK but 2.1. sounds like it would work too
Ne: 5 and 4.1 and 2.2 and 2.2.4.7
Ti: idk where 2.2.4.7 came from but no 5 no 4.1 ok 2.2. maybe
Ne: 4.5.1 or 2.8.54.0.1
Ti: 2.8.54.0.1 is way too complicated but 4.5.1 sounds like…
Fe: someone could get hurt…
Ti: but it still sounds like it could work
Ne: LET’S DO THE THING
Fe: …watev at least people will get laughs LET’S DO IT!!
Si: …that time you did the thing and it kinda blew…
Ne: Psh, this time it’ll work fine! LET’S GO
*does the 4.5.1*
Ti: should’ve thought more 
Si: WHAT’S UP BITCHES I’M BACK AND BROUGHT THE Fe *Fe meekly protests* GET READY FOR RETROSPECTIVE GUILT TRIP
Ne: NOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## Greyhart

Unrelated but this IS what TV was created for. That's it. TV has fulfilled its purpose.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> Do you have a suggestion on how to know the difference? Ti and Ni?


Ti is something you make a Judgment call, or a decision, on. Since Ti is introverted, it is abstracted and removed from general consensus. Essentially, Ti is it's own oasis. Any information Ti supports serves as a catalyst for new information that can be derived in order to support their own independent conclusions. Ti judges the logic behind things, questioning if something is sound or unsound, reasonable or unreasonable, logical or illogical. Reaching these conclusions take time. They have to think about it. 

Ni does not make judgment calls. Ni does not decide anything Ni is irrational, introverted perception. This is Pi in general. Ni removes the sensory objectivity entirely, and peers behind the scenes to trigger mere images (which do not necessarily have to be visualized, btw). These images are entirely removed from what is currently noticeable, rendering Ni to appear... unintelligible, incomprehensible. Black represents death, decay and murder, so black is the body amongst earth, buried underneath a tombstone, rotting and decaying, and the very riffle of the criminal that brought upon the individual's destiny. That example is probably Ne tempered, but the point stands that Ni just creates these... intangible images that have nothing to do with present reality or the sensory world at all. They are perceptions, they don't make decisions. They don't mean to collect or gather anything. They just... are.


----------



## Immolate

You can't do this to me @Greyhart I legit sprayed my drink this has never happened to me before oh my goodness


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> Unrelated but this IS what TV was created for. That's it. TV has fulfilled its purpose.


Can you be my best friend. Please.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> You can't do this to me @Greyhart I legit sprayed my drink this has never happened to me before oh my goodness





TelepathicGoose said:


> Can you be my best friend. Please.











@shinynotshiny 








@TelepathicGoose


----------



## orbit

This thread invokes life relevations about not being the type one thinks they are. 

Hmm. I'd say I'm next but I had my relevation like three days ago. Though I'm still not sure I'm ESFP because the descriptions make me feel uncomfortable but that's okay.


----------



## Greyhart

I get the impression that you are like this with this forum











Curiphant said:


> This thread invokes life relevations about not being the type one thinks they are.
> 
> Hmm. I'd say I'm next but I had my relevation like three days ago. Though I'm still not sure I'm ESFP because the descriptions make me feel uncomfortable but that's okay.


I'm shit at making money. Those ENTP descriptions make me feel like I am failing at ENTPing. Why am I still poor? I want to buy robots. I've never seen a roomba in my life. I've wanted a roomba since... the 90s when I saw that Elextrolux trilobite add.








Look at this baby. I need it. I could not clean my house at all. And feed socks to it.

P.S. Have you also tried ESTP? Or ISTP?


----------



## Max

Well, after a long day of socializing, thinking and freedom, Lucho thinks there is no chance in hell that Lucho is an xNFP, or xSTJ. Lucho may be a badass ISFJ, a nice ENTP or even a well-rounded ESTP. Lucho has narrowed things down significantly. 
@Curiphant @alittlebear @Oswin @TelepathicGoose @Greyhart @shinynotshiny @angelcat


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Well, after a long day of socializing, thinking and freedom, Lucho thinks there is no chance in hell that Lucho is an xNFP, or xSTJ. Lucho may be a badass ISFJ, a nice ENTP or even a well-rounded ESTP. Lucho has narrowed things down significantly.
> 
> @Curiphant @alittlebear @Oswin @TelepathicGoose @Greyhart @shinynotshiny @angelcat


I love how you speak in the third person.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> I love how you speak in the third person.


Lucho enjoys third person narration, as a means of both literature and expression. Lucho imagines Morgan Freeman reading this, and is greatly amused. Lucho wants a narration of Lucho's life story from Morgan Freeman before he dies.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Lucho enjoys third person narration, as a means of both literature and expression. Lucho imagines Morgan Freeman reading this, and is greatly amused. Lucho wants a narration of Lucho's life story from Morgan Freeman before he dies.


That was so Ne. Much Ne, very Ne.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> That was so Ne. Much Ne, very Ne.



How?


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I love how people take typing so seriously.
> I love how they take Jung's theory as literal as possible.
> It cracks me up.
> I just want to know what my dominant functions are.
> The order? IDGAF, gonna use 'em all anyway.


You make fun of typing and people who like typing, but you insist on being typed.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> LOL I AM GONNA SUCK UR DICK CUZ BLONDE HAIR HOW ORIGINAL.
> 
> *Though I have written profiles on what your music tastes or favorite food says about you...*
> 
> and I have to admit it, the low pony tail thing made me smile.


What? Ask me questions.


----------



## orbit

Internet makes me think I don't post things when I do yay.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> You make fun of typing and people who like typing, but you insist on being typed.


Just tell me my mothertrucking functions already, lol.

We agree I use Si-Ne
Now what?
Te-Fi or Fe-Ti? 

I at least wanna figure out my Quadra, lol.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Just tell me my mothertrucking functions already, lol.
> 
> We agree I use Si-Ne
> Now what?
> Te-Fi or Fe-T?
> 
> I at least wanna figure out my Quadra, lol.


I already did but you refuse to accept anything anyone tells you.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I love how people take typing so seriously.
> I love how they take Jung's theory as literal as possible.
> It cracks me up.
> I just want to know what my dominant functions are.
> The order? IDGAF, gonna use 'em all anyway.


Again, nobody here does that. Most people here mash all the theories grown from it and do their own style. I don't see how anything here take's Jung theory "as literal as possible". Please, take this literally:


* *




Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type.






> I just want to know what my dominant functions are.





> *either start filling questionnaires until you find it or start doing research until you can figure it out yourself*


----------



## Greyhart

I think that Jenna does *reaaaaaaaallyyyyyyyyyyyyyy* good job monetizing on stereotype jokes. Which does make me think good Te? Hmm, I need to rethink her videos now.
@hoopla you do agree that Superwoman is ESTP, though?


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Again, nobody here does that. Most people here mash all the theories grown from it and do their own style. I don't see how anything here take's Jung theory "as literal as possible". Please, take this literally:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type.


I've filled in three fucking questionnaires, keep getting mixed results, read up on the functions and we still disagree on shit. 
What more do you want me to do? Catch a grenade? Geez.


----------



## orbit

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Just tell me my mothertrucking functions already, lol.
> 
> We agree I use Si-Ne
> Now what?
> Te-Fi or Fe-Ti?
> 
> I at least wanna figure out my Quadra, lol.



Excuse me you are being rather rude. And it's not funny in the least so don't lol anyone. She brought a valid point and you ignored it.


----------



## Barakiel

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I've filled in three fucking questionnaires, keep getting mixed results, read up on the functions and we still disagree on shit.
> What more do you want me to do? Catch a grenade? Geez.


Welcome. :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> @Greyhart
> @arkigos typed Jenna as an ESTJ. My typing for her is ESFP. She is a controversial one, but I'm pretty sure she's not a Ti-Fe user.
> 
> I also consider her to be the most overrated hype machine on youtube. This series she does are the only videos of hers I enjoy, because they're something I would come up. Maybe she's Si-Ne after all... is she exploring sensory dynamics and what all this different stuff can mean, or is she using sensory archetypes based on what she has observed?


This..video...causes..me...pain.

I was happier when I was ignorant of her existence.


----------



## orbit

I think Micheal Pierce is the best comedian tbh. 

His voice is so monotone, I am so impressed by him


----------



## orbit

Oh yeah and Greyhart what you said about me being objective could be Se not Te and it makes sense. 
Back when I was an "ENTP" I thought I related a lot to Tert. Fe from angelcat's tumblr so I guess that further supports it.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I've filled in three fucking questionnaires, keep getting mixed results, read up on the functions and we still disagree on shit.
> What more do you want me to do? Catch a grenade? Geez.


I've taken 4 and 2 enneagram ones, and been researching since October of last year. It's not a race. In December 2014 I've spent 2 months on this forum and still equated Fi to being egocentric.


----------



## Barakiel

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I've filled in three fucking questionnaires, keep getting mixed results, read up on the functions and we still disagree on shit.
> What more do you want me to do? Catch a grenade? Geez.


Serious response now, I'd recommend just experiencing what different types are like, it's better than reading up on abstractions, at least for me, and a whole lot more fun. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Oh yeah and Greyhart what you said about me being objective could be Se not Te and it makes sense.
> Back when I was an "ENTP" I thought I related a lot to Tert. Fe from angelcat's tumblr so I guess that further supports it.


"Lack of SPs on typing forum" problems  Harde to get the right perspective on how Thinking works with Se. My ESFP friend and relatives? Trainwrecks. Happy trainwrecks. Like that guy in the video except with trains and wrecking. Entertaining as hell to watch but a terrifying way to live for me. :laughing:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I think Micheal Pierce is the best comedian tbh.
> 
> His voice is so monotone, I am so impressed by him


Michael Pierce confuses me. A monotonous INFJ? But yet...it works.

Ugh, but he's awesome either way.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I've taken 4 and 2 enneagram ones, and been researching since October of last year. It's not a race. In December 2014 I've spent 2 months on this forum and still equated Fi to being egocentric.


Where do you research? Besides like the tumblr stuff alittlebear showed me. I've googled stuff but I'm not certain of their validity and I'm sorry for asking but I want to save myself pain and effort and time and >.<

I have so much to read/watch yay!


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Serious response now, I'd recommend just experiencing what different types are like, it's better than reading up on abstractions, at least for me, and a whole lot more fun. :wink:


Watching people's videos with intentions to type. :th_love: My precious lab rodents. :th_love: :th_love: :th_love:


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> "Lack of SPs on typing forum" problems  Harde to get the right perspective on how Thinking works with Se. My ESFP friend and relatives? Trainwrecks. Happy trainwrecks. Like that guy in the video except with trains and wrecking. Entertaining as hell to watch but a terrifying way to live for me. :laughing:


Happy train wrecks 

Ahh. Are SPs not interested? 

I should still check out the forum anyway and branch out even though I'm slightly afraid and anxious. It should be an adventure of mass nerve wrecking!


----------



## Immolate

Guys I just came across this and ugh :blushed:










there's another one in the back :th_dead:


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Michael Pierce confuses me. A monotonous INFJ? But yet...it works.
> 
> Ugh, but he's awesome either way.


I have to skim through his videos because I can't sit through it but I can't double the speed because what he says in so many words is insightful and I have to think and it's a problem.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> This..video...causes..me...pain.
> 
> I was happier when I was ignorant of her existence.


And I thought I sucked at noticing pop cultural trends.

I was infatuated, perhaps married, to Christina Aguilera, owned Back to Basics (remember when people actually purchased CDs?) and was oblivious to the fact that she was married until someone told me.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> Watching people's videos with intentions to type. :th_love: My precious lab rodents. :th_love: :th_love: :th_love:


Haha, much more entertaining to watch you guys on here, imo. :laughing:

Also, is it bad I've never seen that movie?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I have to skim through his videos because I can't sit through it but I can't double the speed because what he says in so many words is insightful and I have to think and it's a problem.


Really? I actually watched through every single video...

He is very insightful, however. It's nice because I know -000 INFJs in real life and I've always wanted to know what they were like.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Where do you research? Besides like the tumblr stuff alittlebear showed me. I've googled stuff but I'm not certain of their validity and I'm sorry for asking but I want to save myself pain and effort and time and >.<
> 
> I have so much to read/watch yay!


Everywhere. Read everything here. Including posts from what I think are mistypes. Watching videos of others, watch videos from "types" even when I don't agree with types, observe people IRL, observe yourself, pester "experts" on this forums, check all interpretations. If you are into Ni mind-bending read Jung. His work feels like pleasant feather scratching my brain.

This kind of mashing of everything makes me giddy like you wouldn't believe. So much data to process and the conflicting results. People are so much fun to try to understand.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Everywhere. Read everything here. Including posts from what I think are mistypes. Watching videos of others, watch videos from "types" even when I don't agree with types, observe people IRL, observe yourself, pester "experts" on this forums, check all interpretations. If you are into Ni mind-bending read Jung. His work feels like pleasant feather scratching my brain.
> 
> This kind of mashing of everything makes me giddy like you wouldn't believe. So much data to process and the conflicting results. People are so much fun to try to understand.


This made me really happy all of a sudden. Thank you for existing ^^


----------



## Deadly Decorum

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I've filled in three fucking questionnaires, keep getting mixed results, read up on the functions and we still disagree on shit.
> What more do you want me to do? Catch a grenade? Geez.


Lol you are so impatient.

All the different perspectives of type is partially why I am so invigorated by this theory.


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> "Lack of SPs on typing forum" problems  Harde to get the right perspective on how Thinking works with Se. My ESFP friend and relatives? Trainwrecks. Happy trainwrecks. Like that guy in the video except with trains and wrecking. Entertaining as hell to watch but a terrifying way to live for me. :laughing:


I think my dad is an ESTP. for awhile I thought he was an ENTP tbh. Likes to play devil's advocate. can even be a bit of a troll. He likes to figure out how others think and will discuss abstract ideas...to a point. But he is more interested in engaging with the world (and the people in it) than he is in Ne-type-things. He is realistic and present.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Happy train wrecks
> 
> Ahh. Are SPs not interested?
> 
> I should still check out the forum anyway and branch out even though I'm slightly afraid and anxious. It should be an adventure of mass nerve wrecking!


I would say a lot of SPs are mistyped due to stereotypes _and_ many many people hang around _other_ parts of forums. For example "type XXXX" forums are not interesting to me, tbh. I hang where lots of unsolved puzzles are.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Really? I actually watched through every single video...
> 
> He is very insightful, however. It's nice because I know -000 INFJs in real life and I've always wanted to know what they were like.


I don't know why. I don't have a short attention span, I can sit down and study for hours and sit in class with complete focus, but when it comes to videos and reading books, I have to stand up every two minutes to move around and then sit down and watch more and then stand up and then I get tired of it and I have to stop. 

I'm so jealous of my younger self. She could sit down and read for hours straight. Now unless I'm in public I put down my book for one reason or another. My reading pace has significantly slowed down


----------



## Greyhart

Greyhart said:


> People are so much fun to try to understand.


This came out wrong.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I don't know why. I don't have a short attention span, I can sit down and study for hours and sit in class with complete focus, but when it comes to videos and reading books, I have to stand up every two minutes to move around and then sit down and watch more and then stand up and then I get tired of it and I have to stop.
> 
> I'm so jealous of my younger self. She could sit down and read for hours straight. Now unless I'm in public I put down my book for one reason or another. My reading pace has significantly slowed down


Interesting, my attention span is crap but yet I can sit down and read a book for hours. I do have a habit of pacing around my room, however. I wonder what this says about your type?


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> This came out wrong.


I'm using that gif. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I don't know why. I don't have a short attention span, I can sit down and study for hours and sit in class with complete focus, but when it comes to videos and reading books, I have to stand up every two minutes to move around and then sit down and watch more and then stand up and then I get tired of it and I have to stop.
> 
> I'm so jealous of my younger self. She could sit down and read for hours straight. Now unless I'm in public I put down my book for one reason or another. My reading pace has significantly slowed down


I read books exclusively in bed. On ebook. Which means I spend an obscene amount of time in bed.

As for his videos, it took me a while to stop zoning out. Took some serious conviction. I don't think he is INFJ btw. INTP is the most likeliest. He seemed to mistype himself.  He has a good grasp on Ne and NP types but once he gets to Ni in my opinion it falls flat-ish.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I think my dad is an ESTP. for awhile I thought he was an ENTP tbh. Likes to play devil's advocate. can even be a bit of a troll. He likes to figure out how others think and will discuss abstract ideas...to a point. But he is more interested in engaging with the world (and the people in it) than he is in Ne-type-things. He is realistic and present.


Has he ever given someone a concussion

Ugh, I gave my best friend a concussion on the last day of school by playing a prank where you remove the chair where you don't expect it and she banged her head and I felt so bad and apparently she later went to the emergency room and then I threw a water bottle at someone across the room because they did and didn't own up to it when my music teacher asked us and then she later told me she knew it was me and ahahaha. My middle school years 

I'm such a horrible person


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> I don't think he is INFJ btw. INTP is the most likeliest. He seemed to mistype himself.  He has a good grasp on Ne and NP types but once he gets to Ni in my opinion it falls flat-ish.


Oh really? He seemed pretty certain that he used Ni, when he explained the function. Is his grasp of Ni inaccurate, then?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Has he ever given someone a concussion
> 
> Ugh, I gave my best friend a concussion on the last day of school by playing a prank where you remove the chair where you don't expect it and she banged her head and I felt so bad and apparently she later went to the emergency room


I did that once but the boy survived.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I read books exclusively in bed. On ebook. Which means I spend an obscene amount of time in bed.
> 
> As for his videos, it took me a while to stop zoning out. Took some serious conviction. I don't think he is INFJ btw. INTP is the most likeliest. He seemed to mistype himself.  He has a good grasp on Ne and NP types but once he gets to Ni in my opinion it falls flat-ish.


Everyone wants to be INFJ

INTP monotone makes more sense 

I hope you have a comfortable bed


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Has he ever given someone a concussion
> 
> Ugh, I gave my best friend a concussion on the last day of school by playing a prank where you remove the chair where you don't expect it and she banged her head and I felt so bad and apparently she later went to the emergency room and then I threw a water bottle at someone across the room because they did and didn't own up to it when my music teacher asked us and then she later told me she knew it was me and ahahaha. My middle school years
> 
> I'm such a horrible person


haha I don't know. I've only known him as an adult :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> The Goose bumped down her Ne (and has a curfew, possibly).
> 
> *But, yes. It's up to Goose.*


It's your responsibility now. I'm off 100%.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Pe attitude.  I can get absorbed hella lot if it's something _interesting_. I consider Se and Ne to be kind of sister functions. Not the complete opposite as many suggest. Type 7 is shared as most common among ExxP temperaments. The desire for fresh and novel is strong. It's all about wanting to absorb maximum amount of "brain data" although with a different motivation and priorities behind it.


I took two ennegrams tests and I got 3 and 9. Nine is totally off the charts and alittlebear had a conniption. 

I'm happy to be learning and figuring this out because for some reason, ever since November, I thought I hated trying new things 

Ah typology does come in handy


----------



## Immolate

@hoopla that was unpleasant :sad:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Hipsters are mainstream ^^


Agreed. It's ridiculous.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing: Now please someone make people stop bringing up Tony Stark as a perfect ENTP specimen. It sends out *such wrong expectations*. He shouldn't be even brought up unless we are typing someone who is literally genius playboy billionaire asshole philanthropist.



Did you know Tony Stark is a rather splendid epitome of ENTPness. I expect you to be him. Why aren't you him. You need to develop a penis and muscles and money and live in America and grow a beard and be him.


----------



## fair phantom

are all youtube stars so loud? >_<


----------



## orbit

I think my grammar has turned off because now I'm ending questions with periods and the next thing will be that I'll be ending sentences with commas,


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Ti is something you make a Judgment call, or a decision, on. Since Ti is introverted, it is abstracted and removed from general consensus. Essentially, Ti is it's own oasis. Any information Ti supports serves as a catalyst for new information that can be derived in order to support their own independent conclusions. Ti judges the logic behind things, questioning if something is sound or unsound, reasonable or unreasonable, logical or illogical. Reaching these conclusions take time. They have to think about it.
> 
> Ni does not make judgment calls. Ni does not decide anything Ni is irrational, introverted perception. This is Pi in general. Ni removes the sensory objectivity entirely, and peers behind the scenes to trigger mere images (which do not necessarily have to be visualized, btw). These images are entirely removed from what is currently noticeable, rendering Ni to appear... unintelligible, incomprehensible. Black represents death, decay and murder, so black is the body amongst earth, buried underneath a tombstone, rotting and decaying, and the very riffle of the criminal that brought upon the individual's destiny. That example is probably Ne tempered, but the point stands that Ni just creates these... intangible images that have nothing to do with present reality or the sensory world at all. They are perceptions, they don't make decisions. They don't mean to collect or gather anything. They just... are.


Honestly I can relate to Ni. That's how I feel about how I see the "souls" of people, as well as how I feel about literature. It's not that they are images in my mind, it's just that the concept I understand of a person or a book or a feeling can only be described as... bubbles, liquid, solid, depth, darkness, without my even visualizing it (my own mind just... words, it seems, and tugs). 

It could be as @Curiphant keeps believing, that an Si user can use Ni as well as Si... but I think that I definitely do use Ni. Because I certainly experience what you are describing here.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> Is this girl Fe or Te dom?


I'm sorry but I found this funny. Gluten free! 

I'm going to be so risky! 

Tuna with buttercream.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Honestly I can relate to Ni. That's how I feel about how I see the "souls" of people, as well as how I feel about literature. It's not that they are images in my mind, it's just that the concept I understand of a person or a book or a feeling can only be described as... bubbles, liquid, solid, depth, darkness, without my even visualizing it (my own mind just... words, it seems, and tugs).
> 
> It could be as @Curiphant keeps believing, that an Si user can use Ni as well as Si... but I think that I definitely do use Ni. Because I certainly experience what you are describing here.


I no longer believe that. Some user did respond my thread and crush my opinions thank goodness for them <3

What is wrong with my typing?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I'm sorry but I found this funny. Gluten free!
> 
> I'm going to be so risky!
> 
> Tuna with buttercream.


There was fried chicken once.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> I'm sorry but I found this funny. Gluten free!
> 
> I'm going to be so risky!
> 
> Tuna with buttercream.


I love her tbh.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> are all youtube stars so loud? >_<


I can provide worse examples.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> I can provide worse examples.


Please don't.

I have yet to get through a full video as it is haha.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Hey did you guys figure out Superwoman's type? My friend _loves_ her.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> I love her tbh.


Ah so I don't have poor taste? Excellent

I indulged on reality tv shows last summer and watching people make sushi cupcakes was one of those indulgents.


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @Greyhart - But... I'm just copying you guys... y'know? Reinforcing those horrible stereotypes... you're all a bad influence on me... Apparently you need to drip Te... to be logical and not procrastinate... and Ti is this horrible inner logic which never gets things done in the outside world...


Except when Fe is in front of it. Then, crap gets DONE. At least, I get stuff done. LOTS of stuff.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Honestly I can relate to Ni. That's how I feel about how I see the "souls" of people, as well as how I feel about literature. It's not that they are images in my mind, it's just that the concept I understand of a person or a book or a feeling can only be described as... bubbles, liquid, solid, depth, darkness, without my even visualizing it (my own mind just... words, it seems, and tugs).
> 
> It could be as @Curiphant keeps believing, that an Si user can use Ni as well as Si... but I think that I definitely do use Ni. Because I certainly experience what you are describing here.


You make sense here 

I think we always circle back to Ni or at least you do.

And Greyhart thinks Superwoman is ESTP


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> You make sense here
> 
> I think we always circle back to Ni or at least you do.
> 
> And Greyhart thinks Superwoman is ESTP


So you would be Superwoman?


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> There was fried chicken once.


Didn't one guy make a crumpet or something?


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Ni is love. Ni is life.
> 
> Wish I had Ni all throughout the night.
> 
> Why, oh why, do I have stupid Fi and Ne?
> 
> Oh, oh oh, I wish I had Ni. :crying:


Ne is creativity and exploration. It is love and life.

Fi is just as good, you silly goose!


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Is that how you relate to others?
> 
> My Fe is abysmal, but I normally know who to stay away from and who's feeling down. It's a matter of observation for me.


I would say so. I just get vibes off people and rooms. I know when people need attended to, when I take notice. I read facial expressions. Emotions are contagious. If someone laughs, I laugh. I know who is bullshitting me. That kinda thing.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Ne is creativity and exploration. It is love and life.
> 
> Fi is just as good, you silly goose!


Awwwww
*dies because I am happy*


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I would say so. I just get vibes off people and rooms. I know when people need attended to, when I take notice. I read facial expressions. Emotions are contagious. If someone laughs, I laugh. I know who is bullshitting me. That kinda thing.


The difference is that I don't laugh when others laugh, smile when others smile, etc 

Emotions are contagious. Sounds like you're closer to Fe.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Awwwww
> *dies because I am happy*


It's supposed to have the opposite effect, Goose, but I forgive you.

:tongue:


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> The difference is that I don't laugh when others laugh, smile when others smile, etc
> 
> Emotions are contagious. Sounds like you're closer to Fe.


Do you have a stink face? XP


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @TelepathicGoose - From what I know of you, you are genuinely an interesting, thoughtful, random, intelligent, insightfully beautiful person. I like you a lot. You are awesome as you are, like Curiphant said. If you change, I'll cry :/.


I am suddenly getting so much love.

i cannot even.

thankthanktthankrnfknyouoyou


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> It's supposed to have the opposite effect, Goose, but I forgive you.
> 
> :tongue:


Ah, don't worry. I only _metaphorically_ died.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Do you have a stink face? XP


:| neutral face

 happy face

>:| angry face

People tend to see the angry face in most situations.

:c


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> The difference is that I don't laugh when others laugh, smile when others smile, etc
> 
> Emotions are contagious. Sounds like you're closer to Fe.


Maybe. I don't know if this is me being a weird fruitloop, or function related, but sometimes I like to imagine myself as my novel characters/in their situations. To get a better idea of how they work. Sometimes, I take on their sayings, moods and personas, especially ones I have been enjoying working on a lot.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> I am suddenly getting so much love.
> 
> i cannot even.
> 
> thankthanktthankrnfknyouoyou


I really mean it. You are my Gosling  

I have a sudden urge to hug you;

*Huggles you.*


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Maybe. I don't know if this is me being a weird fruitloop, or function related, but sometimes I like to imagine myself as my novel characters/in their situations. To get a better idea of how they work. Sometimes, I take on their sayings, moods and personas, especially ones I have been enjoying working on a lot.


Ohh, I don't function that way :laughing:

I figured Fi because I saw Te in you, but maybe I overlooked Fe instead.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> :| neutral face
> 
> happy face
> 
> >:| angry face
> 
> People tend to see the angry face in most situations.
> 
> :c


Do you see anger when you look in the mirror? Or is this based on what people tell you?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> The difference is that I don't laugh when others laugh, smile when others smile, etc
> 
> Emotions are contagious. Sounds like you're closer to Fe.


This is true for me as well.

I often find myself not really agreeing with others on things, and then sometimes when someone states a joke, and I don't find it funny, it becomes awkward. I'm forced to either fake a laugh for the sake of harmony or just sit there awkwardly with a poker face...

Also, for me it's:

Neutral: :|
Happy: 
Angry: :|
Getting more angry: >:|
Extremely angry: ((
@Curiphant, usually, unless I'm extremely worked up, I have a pokerface when upset.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Is anyone else annoyed that the descriptions of Fe make it seem too magical? You feel what others are feeling, you understand their needs... I'm not expressing it right, how they make Fe magical, but they almost made it seem to me supernatural. This ultra altruistic person who just KNOWS what others are feeling and thinking. I think I've got strong Fe, but I don't do that. I know how to make someone smile and feel better, I know how to listen, I know how to understand people... but it's so natural. It's just what I do. It's what all of us do, even Fi users, just heightened. I know that description kept me from identifying as Fe for too long.


YES. some of the things going around about Fe say that high Fe-users _always_ know what others feel. Give me a break. 

As for Ni, I can identify with the socionics Ni and I can relate to parts of myers briggs Ni, but for the latter it is not anywhere near to the extent my INFJ does. I think I just spent too much time alone or something. Idk.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Do you see anger when you look in the mirror? Or is this based on what people tell you?


What they tell me. I'll stare at something and think about Stuff and people will ask me why I'm angry or annoyed. Gr.

I just see a face in the mirror


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Ohh, I don't function that way :laughing:
> 
> I figured Fi because I saw Te in you, but maybe I overlooked Fe instead.


Maybe. 

I am thinking I belong to the Alpha Quadra. And I think I use sensing more than Intuition.
People used to see me as an ESFP, but the more I look into it, the less I see Se-Fi.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I really mean it. You are my Gosling
> 
> I have a sudden urge to hug you;
> 
> *Huggles you.*


Yay. >w<

*huggles back*


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Maybe.
> 
> I am thinking I belong to the Alpha Quadra. And I think I use sensing more than Intuition.
> People used to see me as an ESFP, but the more I look into it, the less I see Se-Fi.


Nah, you're not an xSFP. My cousin is an ESFP, and you act nothing.like.her.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> @_Curiphant_, usually, unless I'm extremely worked up, I have a pokerface when upset.


Yeah, basically. It's like my face shuts down. Don't even try to make me laugh because I will stare at you in silence.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> YES. some of the things going around about Fe say that high Fe-users _always_ know what others feel. Give me a break.
> 
> As for Ni, I can identify with the socionics Ni and I can relate to parts of myers briggs Ni, but for the latter it is not anywhere near to the extent my INFJ does. I think I just spent too much time alone or something. Idk.


Have you ever noticed when you spend prolonged time alone that the room starts to change color when you think too much? That happens to me a lot.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Have you ever noticed when you spend prolonged time alone that the room starts to change color when you think too much? That happens to me a lot.


No, it melts.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Yeah, basically. It's like my face shuts down. Don't even try to make me laugh because I will stare at you in silence.


Yes, same with me. My ESFJ mom is baffled because when I'm upset, I just give her evil eyes and a straight face as opposed to crying, yelling, etc. With her, it's a giant explosion of emotions, but not with me. I think she's gotten the hang of me eventually, however.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Nah, you're not an xSFP. My cousin is an ESFP, and you act nothing.like.her.


My thoughts exactly.

I think a lot of people get people who use Si and Fe mixed up with people who use Se and Fi.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> No, it melts.


Wait, _what_ exactly melts?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

How can anyone have a poker face when upset? Oh my goodness. I actually think I look pretty after I get upset and have tears in my eyes, but nope... You can certainly feel my negative emotions when I am upset, and looking in the mirror I can tell if I am mad or upset especially. It's a bit annoying, to see the strength if my own emotions. I go "Oh, you. Stop being stupid." But I can't, lol. The joys of being an F.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> I think a lot of people get people who use Si and Fe mixed up with people who use Se and Fi.


Well, it's the same problem with Ni/Fe and Ne/Fi. The functions work differently but usually end with the same result, so it can be difficult to decipher it. 

I'm not sure what you are, but you definitely are not an xSFP, xNFP, xNTJ, or xSTJ.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Yeah, basically. It's like my face shuts down. Don't even try to make me laugh because I will stare at you in silence.


Medusa


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> How can anyone have a poker face when upset? Oh my goodness. I actually think I look pretty after I get upset and have tears in my eyes, but nope... You can certainly feel my negative emotions when I am upset, and looking in the mirror I can tell if I am mad or upset especially. It's a bit annoying, to see the strength if my own emotions. I go "Oh, you. Stop being stupid." But I can't, lol. The joys of being an F.


I actually wish I could do that. I have _so many_ emotions, but I have so much trouble expressing them externally. No one ever knows I feel any of them. Most of my therapists thought I was a thinker type due to this.


----------



## fair phantom

TelepathicGoose said:


> Have you ever noticed when you spend prolonged time alone that the room starts to change color when you think too much? That happens to me a lot.


Not sure if you are joking or not...but yes.

(not a significant change, mostly it is just a trick of the light, yes...trick of the light)


----------



## Immolate

Off topic. I've been listening to music trying to find a song that strikes me as Ni, but I mostly drown in INFP.

What do you guys get from these songs:


----------



## orbit

I cry when I'm angry and people are always like "HONEY YOU POOR THING DON'T CRY"

And I'm like "Can I act violently?"


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, it's the same problem with Ni/Fe and Ne/Fi. The functions work differently but usually end with the same result, so it can be difficult to decipher it.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are, but you definitely are not an xSFP, xNFP, xNTJ, or xSTJ.


That leaves ENTP, INTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTP, ISTP, ENFJ and INFJ. Alpha and Beta Quadra, if I remember?

I have heard of ESFJs being confused with ESFPs easily.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> Not sure if you are joking or not...but yes.
> 
> (not a significant change, mostly it is just a trick of the light, yes...trick of the light)


I'm not joking, I'm being serious. And yes, it's usually just a trick of the light.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> That leaves ENTP, INTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTP, ISTP, ENFJ and INFJ. Alpha and Beta Quadra, if I remember?
> 
> I have heard of ESFJs being confused with ESFPs easily.


I doubt you are either of those. :dry:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> I actually wish I could do that. I have _so many_ emotions, but I have so much trouble expressing them externally. No one ever knows I feel any of them. Most of my therapists thought I was a thinker type due to this.


Oh my gosh. The first time I brought up MBTI with my first counselor, she went, "Definitely a Feeler." I've mentioned this before, but my current counselor tells me I am so great at knowing myself and expressing my feelings and understandings and problems and I'm like "well that's good that you get what I mean and feel because I don't know what I mean or feel??" I give a strong sense of something but internally I don't have it.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> How can anyone have a poker face when upset? Oh my goodness. I actually think I look pretty after I get upset and have tears in my eyes, but nope... You can certainly feel my negative emotions when I am upset, and looking in the mirror I can tell if I am mad or upset especially. It's a bit annoying, to see the strength if my own emotions. I go "Oh, you. Stop being stupid." But I can't, lol. The joys of being an F.


If I'm emotionally healthy, I poker face. If not, I poker face and then cry in a corner


----------



## orbit

My therapist thinks I'm this philosophy hunkie that perpetually thinks about the meaning of life 24/7 and contemplates the meaning of education.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I cry when I'm angry and people are always like "HONEY YOU POOR THING DON'T CRY"
> 
> And I'm like "Can I act violently?"


Omg.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> My therapist thinks I'm this philosophy hunkie that perpetually thinks about the meaning of life 24/7 and contemplates the meaning of education.


Is that not you though


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh. The first time I brought up MBTI with my first counselor, she went, "Definitely a Feeler." I've mentioned this before, but my current counselor tells me I am so great at knowing myself and expressing my feelings and understandings and problems and I'm like "well that's good that you get what I mean and feel because I don't know what I mean or feel??" I give a strong sense of something but internally I don't have it.


Ugh yeah that's annoying. I have no idea I'm happy until I'm smiling or I'm angry unless I'm crying


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh. The first time I brought up MBTI with my first counselor, she went, "Definitely a Feeler." I've mentioned this before, but my current counselor tells me I am so great at knowing myself and expressing my feelings and understandings and problems and I'm like "well that's good that you get what I mean and feel because I don't know what I mean or feel??" I give a strong sense of something but internally I don't have it.


That's Fe and Ni I think.

Lucky you, my therapists all think I'm a thinker at first. I then have to go in extreme elaboration about how Fi works and how I am most certainly not a thinker type. Blech.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> If I'm emotionally healthy, I poker face. If not, I poker face and then cry in a corner


Hmm........


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Hmm........


I do not like this hmm.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Ugh yeah that's annoying. I have no idea I'm happy until I'm smiling or I'm angry unless I'm crying


That's Fe. So much Fe. 

I always know how I feel before I express it externally, and it's up to me whether I feel like expressing it or not.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> I doubt you are either of those. :dry:


I can think of a Ti-Si loop being confused for xSTP.

An ExTP with developing Fe.

An ENTP stuck in a Tertiary loop.

An xSFJ developing Ne.

An ESTP using Fe-Se-Ti.

The most heartless Fe-Dom ever.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I do not like this hmm.


[concerned soccer mom lip noise] _Mmm.._


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> That's Fe. So much Fe.
> 
> I always know how I feel before I express it externally, and it's up to me whether I feel like expressing it or not.


That's why I was confused by Arkigos telling me I was Te. Because I related to Tert Fe strongly and I have a need to be liked


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> [concerned soccer mom lip noise] _Mmm.._


_Oh._

Don't be concerned. Poker face simply means I deal with it better. Worry when I get overly emotional.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> That's why I was confused by Arkigos telling me I was Te. Because I related to Tert Fe strongly and I have a need to be liked


Yep, that's Fe for you.

So ESTP or ENTP? I think you're an ESTP. A very wonderful one at that ^^


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Is that not you though


I do not think philosophy 24/7. I am not a hunkie


----------



## fair phantom

TelepathicGoose said:


> I always know how I feel before I express it externally, and it's up to me whether I feel like expressing it or not.


Same. At least most of the time. I think I've gotten a lot better at expressing what I'm feeling, but when I do it is a choice.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I can think of a Ti-Si loop being confused for xSTP.
> 
> An ExTP with developing Fe.
> 
> An ENTP stuck in a Tertiary loop.
> 
> An xSFJ developing Ne.
> 
> An ESTP using Fe-Se-Ti.
> 
> The most heartless Fe-Dom ever.


Question:

What is one function that you feel you have none of? Like, you don't see any of it in yourself?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> Same. At least most of the time. I think I've gotten a lot better at expressing what I'm feeling, but when I do it is a choice.


Yep, same with me. 

I've been trying to improve how I express my emotions, because I know it always ends up better if I stop being so stubborn and I just tell others how I feel. But it can be absolutely atrocious and terrifying at times.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Question:
> 
> What is one function that you feel you have none of? Like, you don't see any of it in yourself?


Out of them all? Honestly? Ni.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yep, that's Fe for you.
> 
> So ESTP or ENTP? I think you're an ESTP. A very wonderful one at that ^^


I think I'm ESTP. No sign of Ne in me though I do like brainstorming. I think I share the same functions as alittlebear just in different order 

Thank you! I'd say the same but you aren't an ESTP 

Wonderful INFP then


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I think I'm ESTP. No sign of Ne in me though I do like brainstorming. I think I share the same functions as alittlebear just in different order
> 
> Thank you! I'd say the same but you aren't an ESTP
> 
> Wonderful INFP then


I'm glad we worked that out for you.

And thank you! You're very fun to type. :kitteh:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Out of them all? Honestly? Ni.


Then, Ni is most likely either your PoLR or your inferior function.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> Ugh yeah that's annoying. I have no idea I'm happy until I'm smiling or I'm angry unless I'm crying


Do you have thoughts, but find you cannot identify or label the emotion they represent until physical evidence is displayed?


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> I'm glad we worked that out for you.
> 
> And thank you! You're very fun to type. :kitteh:


As Greyhart would say I'm an excellent subject

Anyway if I want any sleep I should tucker out now. Good night!


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Then, Ni is most likely either your PoLR or your inferior function.


Going by this, I am most likely either an Si-ESFj or ES(t)P?

Wow. Interesting observation. A few male athletes/actors seem to get narrowed down to ESFJ/ESTP


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> Do you have thoughts, but find you cannot identify or label the emotion they represent until physical evidence is displayed?


There's a faint sense of something and I can interpret my thoughts somewhat but no feeling comes out until I'm waving my arms around and grinning and then I'm like YAY 
I mean of course sometimes I'm so sad or happy that I can tell automatically but that's rare 

When I was depressed I had no idea what was going on and these negative thoughts would pop into my head and I was very very confused. I cried for about three to four hours and I didn't think I was depressed. There was this funny feeling of buzzing inside of my chest but depression to me was heaviness. Not a buzz. I didn't realize I didn't have the capacity to recognize my own feelings until then.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> _Oh._
> 
> Don't be concerned. Poker face simply means I deal with it better. Worry when I get overly emotional.


Oh, I was just kidding. It really didn't mean anything. I was just wondering how I would express my emotions when healthy. ^^


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Going by this, I am most likely either an Si-ESFj or ES(t)P?
> 
> Wow. Interesting observation. A few male athletes/actors seem to get narrowed down to ESFJ/ESTP


I've noticed this too. Well, they are both very common MBTI types, so I guess that may be why?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

What function would correspond with someone "being a chameleon"?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> As Greyhart would say I'm an excellent subject
> 
> Anyway if I want any sleep I should tucker out now. Good night!


Nighty night ^^


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> What function would correspond with someone "being a chameleon"?


Fe, usually. Especially Fe+Ni.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> I've noticed this too. Well, they are both very common MBTI types, so I guess that may be why?


Also, same with actors. The ESFJ could be playing an ESTP, because that is how he percieves the average man to be like, especially in action movies. I have seen actors like Bruce Willis etc being typed as xSFJs. I used to be like "impossible!", but the more I know, the more obvious it seems.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I need to write my cousin a paper. I might be retiring soon as well.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Also, same with actors. The ESFJ could be playing an ESTP, because that is how he percieves the average man to be like, especially in action movies. I have seen actors like Bruce Willis etc being typed as xSFJs. I used to be like "impossible!", but the more I know, the more obvious it seems.


It's interesting. Probably the shared Fe/Ti axis, and the fact that ESxx are amongst the most common types?

I don't know, but all I know is that the types I have the easiest time acting as are the xxTJs, because of the shared Fi/Te axis.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> I need to write my cousin a paper. I might be retiring soon as well.


Ah, it's barely 9pm for me, what a shame.

I guess I'll just go hide* in my corner and read some books now.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> It's interesting. Probably the shared Fe/Ti axis, and the fact that ESxx are amongst the most common types?
> 
> I don't know, but all I know is that the types I have the easiest time acting as are the xxTJs, because of the shared Fi/Te axis.


That probably has something to do with it also. Ironic we say this, because I find TPs and FJs easiest to act. Most of my characters are those types, lol.


----------



## Immolate

Alas. Greyhart is this thread's lifeblood.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Alas. Greyhart is this thread's lifeblood.


Oh really? 

Well then...

*How would you like a flibbery flabbergasting didgeredoo the size of a man's thumb, all encompassed in your soul. But not only is it in your soul- it's in the soul of every other human on this planet. All one- but wait- there's more! A thingy me blob jello decided to eat all of you one day because...ebola! Yeah, ebola came and destroyed America so then an evil monster named jack came and turned into a blob jello so that he could eat you all and then save the human race from spreading more ebola. Ebola sounds kind of like a soup. E-bowl-of soup- did you know that soup is actually partially solid? Solids are fun to play with. My name is Melanie. Who are you? U is my favorite vowel! Did you know Japanese words only end in vowels! Oh! Anime is fun. What if humans were giant anime characters! Oh, but- but- that would be weird because then we wouldn't be able to breathe. Lungs are weird looking!*

Okay I'm out of breathe now.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Oh really?
> 
> Well then...
> 
> *How would you like a flibbery flabbergasting didgeredoo the size of a man's thumb, all encompassed in your soul. But not only is it in your soul- it's in the soul of every other human on this planet. All one- but wait- there's more! A thingy me blob jello decided to eat all of you one day because...ebola! Yeah, ebola came and destroyed America so then an evil monster named jack came and turned into a blob jello so that he could eat you all and then save the human race from spreading more ebola. Ebola sounds kind of like a soup. E-bowl-of soup- did you know that soup is actually partially solid? Solids are fun to play with. My name is Melanie. Who are this?*


I can almost hear you shout _Challenge accepted!_

But first you have to argue the existence of a soul, and why only humans, what about animals? Is this Jack person Samurai Jack? I don't like jello, it's such a strange... I don't want to call it food but that's what it's labeled. Ebola is so high school when I was forced to read Hot Zone. What kind of solids do you like to play with? I'm shiny and my real name ends with A.


----------



## Immolate

Fiend! You added to your post.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I can almost hear you shout _Challenge accepted!_
> 
> But first you have to argue the existence of a soul, and why only humans, what about animals? Is this Jack person Samurai Jack? I don't like jello, it's such a strange... I don't want to call it food but that's what it's labeled. Ebola is so high school when I was forced to read Hot Zone. What kind of solids do you like to play with? I'm shiny and my real name ends with A.


I read the Hot Zone a few years ago, it was literal torture. 

Jello is nummy, what are you talking about?

Animals have souls too!

I CAN ADD TO MY POST WHENEVER I WANT. I DO WHAT I WANT, WHENEVER I WANT, HOWEVER I WANT, CUZ I CAN MUDDAFLUCKER.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@shinynotshiny

Oh, solids? I LOVE SOLIDS. Some solids come in green, some come in blue. Some solids suck you into a trans-dimensional vortex across planet mars and jupiter. Some solids are funny, some are serious. Some solids look like my dad, but my dad's a science professor. What's the physics behind solids, again? Again is a funny word, if you say it in British England it's like "a-gain" more like, " I gain". What if it secretly means I gained from going again? What if this was a giant war of politeness in England?

I'm sorry got off topic again.


----------



## Max

Ti vs Te confuses me. Both are based on systems and logic.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> I read the Hot Zone a few years ago, it was literal torture.
> 
> Jello is nummy, what are you talking about?
> 
> Animals have souls too!
> 
> I CAN ADD TO MY POST WHENEVER I WANT. I DO WHAT I WANT, WHENEVER I WANT, HOWEVER I WANT, CUZ I CAN MUDDAFLUCKER.


I read that as CAN I HAZ MUDDERFLUCKER and thought of you saying it through a mouthful of feathers because you ate a goose.

Yes it was torture, jello is abominable, I think Jainism practices non-harm to the point where they don't eat certain foods because bacteria is life and they're also careful with bugs.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Proof.


My heart is broken now. Happy?


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> My heart is broken now. Happy?


Give me a moment.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Give me a moment.


:dry:


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Love is pain!


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> :dry:


I was getting this picture of my dog Sir Biscuit. _No patience._


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> i was getting this picture of my dog sir biscuit. _no patience._


he is so cute.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

I am really tired but I feel like hugging everyone at once right now. EMOTIONS, WHYYY


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny awwww! cute pup!!!


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> he is so cute.


The ducks around here are bigger than him and he sometimes hides.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> The ducks around here are bigger than him and he sometimes hides.


That is fucking adorable. Lucky, you.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ awwww! cute pup!!!


Maybe he's a little bit spoiled :frustrating:

He only gets mean when he gets his paws on a napkin. There's something about napkins. He won't let them go.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> I am really tired but I feel like hugging everyone at once right now. EMOTIONS, WHYYY


This is better than heartbroken. Guilt-tripper.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> This is better than heartbroken. Guilt-tripper.


How can one trip over guilt? How does that work? Hmm, interesting.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Maybe he's a little bit spoiled :frustrating:
> 
> He only gets mean when he gets his paws on a napkin. There's something about napkins. He won't let them go.


My cats are so spoiled.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> How can one trip over guilt? How does that work? Hmm, interesting.


_Goose._


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> _Goose._


_Shiny._


----------



## Immolate

I wonder what the people browsing this thread are doing. I imagine Greyhart fell asleep on her desk or just threw herself in bed.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> I wonder what the people browsing this thread are doing. I imagine Greyhart fell asleep on her desk or just threw herself in bed.


Lucho. Is lurking.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I wonder what the people browsing this thread are doing. I imagine Greyhart fell asleep on her desk or just threw herself in bed.


Well, what I usually do is just keep the window open all night because I'm too lazy to log out and in.

Although, I have no idea what Greyhart is doing.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Lucho. Is lurking.


:ninja:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Lucho. Is lurking.


:wink:


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, what I usually do is just keep the window open all night because I'm too lazy to log out and in.
> 
> Although, I have no idea what Greyhart is doing.


I may not be so lazy after all...


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I may not be so lazy after all...


Oh, don't compare yourself to me. I am the epitome of lazy, with a capitol "lazy" at that.


----------



## Barakiel

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, what I usually do is just keep the window open all night because I'm too lazy to log out and in.
> 
> Although, I have no idea what Greyhart is doing.


I'm just browsing multiple threads I'm attached to because I have no life. :laughing:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Barakiel said:


> I'm just browsing multiple threads I'm attached to because I have no life. :laughing:


Neither do I, my friend. Neither do I.


----------



## Barakiel

TelepathicGoose said:


> Neither do I, my friend. Neither do I.


Gotta say, love the avatar. :kitteh: I should really change mine, got this one because I was trying to prove the character in this was an INTJ, and I had no other ideas for an avatar at the time... :dry:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Barakiel said:


> Gotta say, love the avatar. :kitteh: I should really change mine, got this one because I was trying to prove the character in this was an INTJ, and I had no other ideas for an avatar at the time... :dry:


Thank you 

Hmm, well what I do is just search up a bunch of random terms involving things I like and surf until I find something I like for my avatar. Works like a charm


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Gotta say, love the avatar. :kitteh: I should really change mine, got this one because I was trying to prove the character in this was an INTJ, and I had no other ideas for an avatar at the time... :dry:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Well guyyys, I'm extremely tired.

So I will bade you all a much-needed farewell.

Goodnight, my friends.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well guyyys, I'm extremely tired.
> 
> So I will bade you all a much-needed farewell.
> 
> Goodnight, my friends.


Have convoluted Ne dreams.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Gotta say, love the avatar. :kitteh: I should really change mine, got this one because I was trying to prove the character in this was an INTJ, and I had no other ideas for an avatar at the time... :dry:


I vote kyubey.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Have convoluted Ne dreams.


Of course, I always will. :wink:


----------



## Max

I think I act like an ENTP a lot, but I don't seem like one.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I vote kyubey.


Nah, thought I'd reference my favorite troll in all of Persona instead. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think I act like an ENTP a lot, but I don't seem like one.


Acting like an ENTP is *FUN*, no one knows what to expect from you after that. :laughing:


----------



## Max

Barakiel said:


> Acting like an ENTP is *FUN*, no one knows what to expect from you after that. :laughing:


I am looking into Enneagram too. I am 95% certain I am a head/gut/heart type.


----------



## Max

@Greyhart -Your earlier statement about me being a counterphobic 6w7 is making sense. I can see 6w7, 8w7 and 4w5 as my enneagram, and 684 as my tritype, and sx so sp. It matches me better than 784, by a long shot.

I can also see xSxJ.


----------



## Barakiel

Can we actually discuss Enneagrams? I've been curious about them, but yet to find a reputable source. :wink:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Can we actually discuss Enneagrams? I've been curious about them, but yet to find a reputable source. :wink:


I actually returned when I know things to contribute!

Are you looking for your enneagram type, or a summary of them all?

(Although reply time is limited as I'm moving back home today and just finished packing.)


----------



## Darkbloom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @Greyhart -Your earlier statement about me being a counterphobic 6w7 is making sense. I can see 6w7, 8w7 and 4w5 as my enneagram, and 684 as my tritype, and sx so sp. It matches me better than 784, by a long shot.
> 
> I can also see xSxJ.


Hahaha I knew it XD
684 sx/so makes sense


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I actually returned when I know things to contribute!
> 
> Are you looking for your enneagram type, or a summary of them all?
> 
> (Although reply time is limited as I'm moving back home today and just finished packing.)


Well, I suppose asking for a summary of them all would be good, but finding my type is always my objective, no matter whether Enneagram, MBTI, or even Socionics. :wink:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Well, I suppose asking for a summary of them all would be good, but finding my type is always my objective, no matter whether Enneagram, MBTI, or even Socionics. :wink:


Hm, have you gone through many types? If so, which ones and why did you think you related to them?

As for enneagram, it's easiest to go by motivation/fear.

1 = perfectionism/reforming - they fear they can never be perfect/right and will be wrong, or seen to be wrong. They're said to have a harsh inner critic that drives them and at lower levels can be rigid and overly critical of others. When they're at higher levels of health, they tend to be good at noting how to improve things and can do so while accepting not everything can be perfect.

2 = being loved/seen as lovable - they fear they can never be loved for how they are and so need to act in a way that is more acceptable to others in order to receive love. At lower levels they can end up becoming two-faced and/or lying to others and manipulating them. At higher levels of health, they tend to work towards helping people without expecting anything in return.

3 = achievement - they fear they won't receive approval from external sources and so try to achieve (or appear to be achieving) in front of others to gain this. At lower levels, they can be fake and never actually achieve what they want to, because of needing the approval of others. At higher levels, they become able to focus and push themselves to achieve their own goals.

4 = self-awareness and expression - they fear not being their own self, distinguishable from others and so can act in ways which make them seem overtly different. At lower levels, they can be too self-absorbed and cause problems for or even harm others without thinking. At higher levels, they can be very expressive and tend to be artistic.

5 = knowledge and preparation - they fear not being prepared for the outside world, which they view as hostile, and so tend to collect data. At lower levels, they tend to become completely isolated and withdrawn from the outside world. At higher levels, they can use their ideas and collected knowledge in the real world.

6 = security/stability - they fear insecurity so they tend towards staying loyal to certain groups or people they find trustworthy. At lower levels, they can test the loyalty of others towards them or see insecurity where there is none. At higher levels, they can be genuinely loyal (not just out of fear) and self-sacrificing.

7 = action/experience - they fear boredom (or, not having experiences or action in their lives) and so will go to great lengths to avoid it. At lower levels, they can neglect basic daily tasks because they're boring, in favour of doing something they believe would be fun. At higher levels, they can be multi-talented and driven.

8 = independence/self-sufficiency - they fear being dependent on others and so strive for their own independence. At lower levels, this can result in them striving for control/dominance in all situations and becoming aggressive. At higher levels, they can use their ability to be independent and self-sufficient to protect and help those close to them.

9 = peace - they fear losing their inner and outer peace and so tend to avoid strong emotions, such as anger (which creates both inner and outer conflicts). At lower levels, they can avoid responding to or initiating any kind of confrontation with others in order to preserve their peace, even if the confrontation is necessary. At higher levels, they learn to handle their anger and become more accepting and supportive of others, rather than just passive.

As a note: lots of people tend to mistype as 6, due to the fact the security aspect is undefined. It's good to try and be specific about fears/motivations.


----------



## AdInfinitum

shinynotshiny said:


> I was getting this picture of my dog Sir Biscuit. _No patience._


That is one curious dog, I wonder if he knows you have named him Sir Biscuit. So adorable though... 


Btw @alittlebear I still see Ni in you, the way you are untouched by some issues, the way your mind wraps around moral issues and grasps the essence and a plan towards it, that is quite how Ni works, you are entitled to imprint your impressions around the existential clause of the human nature, even if you are Ni it does not rise the waters around Ne, you will still enjoy the company of Ne as it is one pleasurable function to see working. However the way you approach moral questions, stacked up with your Fe, it wants to see the same issue on both sides so that it reaches one truth to understand the world on a deeper level, how can so many contradictions live under the same imperium, your Ni tries to converge them and actually see the alternate meaning.

At least that is how I perceived the latest posts. It still looks to me as if you have a broad but stable tendency of understanding brought upon a cloud of thought.

@angelcat Does Si tend to have internal maps of the world like Ni does but in a more concrete way ( i.e. experiences only or personified experiences) or does the Ne in SJs try to dismiss such an idea ?


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> Hm, have you gone through many types? If so, which ones and why did you think you related to them?
> 
> As for enneagram, it's easiest to go by motivation/fear.
> 
> 1 = perfectionism/reforming - they fear they can never be perfect/right and will be wrong, or seen to be wrong. They're said to have a harsh inner critic that drives them and at lower levels can be rigid and overly critical of others. When they're at higher levels of health, they tend to be good at noting how to improve things and can do so while accepting not everything can be perfect.
> 
> 2 = being loved/seen as lovable - they fear they can never be loved for how they are and so need to act in a way that is more acceptable to others in order to receive love. At lower levels they can end up becoming two-faced and/or lying to others and manipulating them. At higher levels of health, they tend to work towards helping people without expecting anything in return.
> 
> 3 = achievement - they fear they won't receive approval from external sources and so try to achieve (or appear to be achieving) in front of others to gain this. At lower levels, they can be fake and never actually achieve what they want to, because of needing the approval of others. At higher levels, they become able to focus and push themselves to achieve their own goals.
> 
> 4 = self-awareness and expression - they fear not being their own self, distinguishable from others and so can act in ways which make them seem overtly different. At lower levels, they can be too self-absorbed and cause problems for or even harm others without thinking. At higher levels, they can be very expressive and tend to be artistic.
> 
> 5 = knowledge and preparation - they fear not being prepared for the outside world, which they view as hostile, and so tend to collect data. At lower levels, they tend to become completely isolated and withdrawn from the outside world. At higher levels, they can use their ideas and collected knowledge in the real world.
> 
> 6 = security/stability - they fear insecurity so they tend towards staying loyal to certain groups or people they find trustworthy. At lower levels, they can test the loyalty of others towards them or see insecurity where there is none. At higher levels, they can be genuinely loyal (not just out of fear) and self-sacrificing.
> 
> 7 = action/experience - they fear boredom (or, not having experiences or action in their lives) and so will go to great lengths to avoid it. At lower levels, they can neglect basic daily tasks because they're boring, in favour of doing something they believe would be fun. At higher levels, they can be multi-talented and driven.
> 
> 8 = independence/self-sufficiency - they fear being dependent on others and so strive for their own independence. At lower levels, this can result in them striving for control/dominance in all situations and becoming aggressive. At higher levels, they can use their ability to be independent and self-sufficient to protect and help those close to them.
> 
> 9 = peace - they fear losing their inner and outer peace and so tend to avoid strong emotions, such as anger (which creates both inner and outer conflicts). At lower levels, they can avoid responding to or initiating any kind of confrontation with others in order to preserve their peace, even if the confrontation is necessary. At higher levels, they learn to handle their anger and become more accepting and supportive of others, rather than just passive.
> 
> As a note: lots of people tend to mistype as 6, due to the fact the security aspect is undefined. It's good to try and be specific about fears/motivations.


I don't really relate to a lot of these, mainly cause any major one of these has been dulled out of me, but I remember feeling similar to 8 way back when. Although I actually reacted to that possibility by becoming distant and snide, keeping a sort of pseudo control over conversations. :wink: People have said I seem 3ish, but I dunno, I don't feel driven at all.


----------



## 68097

NobleRaven said:


> @angelcat Does Si tend to have internal maps of the world like Ni does but in a more concrete way ( i.e. experiences only or personified experiences) or does the Ne in SJs try to dismiss such an idea ?


Eh? Maybe?

Best I can do is that we have an internal filing system for sensory objects. How things taste, look, feel, sound. You want the true test of Si? Sit down and watch a movie with an SJ. It goes something like this:

"I've heard this person's voice before... where... I'm getting an image of them in Victorian garb... which costume drama were they in? ... ah, this is bugging me! No, wait, I have it! _Bleak House_!! They were in _Bleak House_!!"

It's kind of ... unconscious memorization. It freaks people out how easily I record sensory impressions. Actors cannot disguise their voices from me; I've memorized their resonance and can tell it's them even if they tear their voices to shreds doing an impersonation. 

I guess an internal map would make sense? But it would tend to be more, "this is the information I have gathered about the world, based on what I've seen, read, and experienced, so I expect things to fall in this pattern" than anything.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> At least that is how I perceived the latest posts. It still looks to me as if you have a broad but stable tendency of understanding brought upon a cloud of thought.


I will try to explain again how my mind works, although of course it is difficult because it is hard to explain one's mind with one post (especially since it is difficult to know one's own mind). 

DJArendee (or w/e his name is, you know the guy) once said that people with Ne have a thousand thoughts going on, while people without Ne do not have that. I relate with him in this way. Sometimes even the thoughts I have are not even being thought. When I think, I think in words, and sometimes I only see the word, but most the time it seems my mind is taking information in. The connection is silent. The thoughts are silent. I can be thinking of a few things at once, because they are one thing (it is difficult to explain and do not take this part literally), and by contemplating one thing it is also other things. 

(Perhaps this is common, but it's just been weird to me. I wake up and I don't even have coherent thoughts, but knowing. Not supernatural knowing, but... My thoughts flow but are unexpressed. I remember that I am going to a party today and to the mall afterwards, and that my cousin will be there, and that I have his essay due, but the one word that comes to mind is one of my cousin's name. That holds the understanding. This works for other things as well, especially in school, but this is what just happened to me this morning.) 

Throughout the day, my mind feels like a sea anemone. The thoughts and understandings come to me silently (I suspect they do that for all of us, perhaps?), and they wiggle (or buzz, or pull, it's difficult to represent) until I grab one out to formulate into a coherent thought. With that thought understood, I will sometimes trail it off, my own mind now secure on that matter, or I will build on it. As I think the thought, information is still coming into my mind and storing itself, some becoming new fingers of the sea anemone and some less thought-provoking pieces just settling into the matter of what I already understand and does not need further contemplation. 

On the inside of my mind - beyond the anemone that stretches near my face - it is, as I have said, a ball of understanding. (I apologize for those of you who have heard this explanation before). I am constantly honing this ball of understanding, constructing its core so that it fits it knows the world. This is also an understanding of my own understanding that I am perfecting, but if I learn something about human nature (whether through literature, my classes, or my own experiences) I will patch it into my current understanding of humanity accordingly (honing my understanding of the cruelty of humans, or the beauty of humans, or the simplicity, whatever it is I find). If it is a small thing, I will patch it lightly with other light understandings. If it is crucial, if it is deep, if it is something to shift my current understanding, I will not only patch it to the core but place it in the center of that core. 

When I go to retrieve this information, these "truths" I've gathered, my mind somehow finds what it needs too in the bangle of my brain and pulls it out for me to use. A lot of times it is faulty - I forget specifics, and sometimes (most unfortunately) the logic behind my original thought - but it is still magical to me, how I can go back into my prior understandings to better hone my understandings. 

And... I think that about covers what I understand of my brain. 

(I have also never visualized some of these elements before to explain my brain, such as the anemone. These are just the best physical representation of the way my thoughts feel that I could think of.)

I'll tag @angelcat because I am wondering if she relates (especially since I can see how this could be Si/Ne with a touch of Ti)


----------



## Darkbloom

Barakiel said:


> I don't really relate to a lot of these, mainly cause any major one of these has been dulled out of me, but I remember feeling similar to 8 way back when. Although I actually reacted to that possibility by becoming distant and snide, keeping a sort of pseudo control over conversations. :wink: People have said I seem 3ish, but I dunno, I don't feel driven at all.


Maybe 6w5 or 9w8?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Eh? Maybe?
> 
> Best I can do is that we have an internal filing system for sensory objects. How things taste, look, feel, sound. You want the true test of Si? Sit down and watch a movie with an SJ. It goes something like this:
> 
> "I've heard this person's voice before... where... I'm getting an image of them in Victorian garb... which costume drama were they in? ... ah, this is bugging me! No, wait, I have it! _Bleak House_!! They were in _Bleak House_!!"
> 
> It's kind of ... unconscious memorization. It freaks people out how easily I record sensory impressions. Actors cannot disguise their voices from me; I've memorized their resonance and can tell it's them even if they tear their voices to shreds doing an impersonation.
> 
> *I guess an internal map would make sense? But it would tend to be more, "this is the information I have gathered about the world, based on what I've seen, read, and experienced, so I expect things to fall in this pattern" than anything.*


The bolded at the end sounds like what I just described! but the above is another Si thing I have trouble with. 

My room mate recognizes actors and details about things like _that_. We were watching Downton Abbey first season and she says, "Can you believe they are using the same dresses again? Mary has worn that dress two times already." I gave her the weirdest look. "I didn't even notice her dress color? How the heck did you notice that?" I was immediately reminded of what you said about Si and remembering costumes, and because of that thank goodness I did not give the poor girl too hard of a time. 

I don't do that. I can't even remember details of people's faces. I don't even remember colors. To my cousin's new baby my mom said, "You look just like your mother, but in that one picture you looked like your father," and I smiled politely because I had _no idea what she was talking about_, the child looked like a small white girl with black hair to me. I never see family resemblances like that. I know this doesn't mean I can't have Si, but I'm going to have to work on that superpower of Introverted Sensing if I do actually have it.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> I don't really relate to a lot of these, mainly cause any major one of these has been dulled out of me, but I remember feeling similar to 8 way back when. Although I actually reacted to that possibility by becoming distant and snide, keeping a sort of pseudo control over conversations. :wink: People have said I seem 3ish, but I dunno, I don't feel driven at all.


With 8 I felt I related a lot because of longing for independence and freedom, but I think my need for peace and going at my own pace was stronger so I settled on an anxious 9! It could also explain why you may seem 3ish as 9 integrates to 3.


----------



## fair phantom

tine said:


> With 8 I felt I related a lot because of longing for independence and freedom, but I think my need for peace and going at my own pace was stronger so I settled on an anxious 9! It could also explain why you may seem 3ish as 9 integrates to 3.


Yeah it is important to look at lines of integration/disintegration. I mistyped as a 5w4 for awhile (and consistently tested as one) and probably appear like one to many who know me irl, but I realized that my mind fix is actually 7w6 because I am very passionate and enthusiastic about learning and really quite insatiable for knowledge/books/art and the like. I just seemed like a 5 because of the combination of the wing on the 4 and the fact that 7 integrates to 5. I can also seem 1ish at times, and I think that is because both 4 and 7 connect to 1 rather than actually having a 1 fix.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I will try to explain again how my mind works, although of course it is difficult because it is hard to explain one's mind with one post (especially since it is difficult to know one's own mind).
> 
> DJArendee (or w/e his name is, you know the guy) once said that people with Ne have a thousand thoughts going on, while people without Ne do not have that. I relate with him in this way. Sometimes even the thoughts I have are not even being thought. When I think, I think in words, and sometimes I only see the word, but most the time it seems my mind is taking information in. The connection is silent. The thoughts are silent. I can be thinking of a few things at once, because they are one thing (it is difficult to explain and do not take this part literally), and by contemplating one thing it is also other things.
> 
> (Perhaps this is common, but it's just been weird to me. I wake up and I don't even have coherent thoughts, but knowing. Not supernatural knowing, but... My thoughts flow but are unexpressed. I remember that I am going to a party today and to the mall afterwards, and that my cousin will be there, and that I have his essay due, but the one word that comes to mind is one of my cousin's name. That holds the understanding. This works for other things as well, especially in school, but this is what just happened to me this morning.)
> 
> Throughout the day, my mind feels like a sea anemone. The thoughts and understandings come to me silently (I suspect they do that for all of us, perhaps?), and they wiggle (or buzz, or pull, it's difficult to represent) until I grab one out to formulate into a coherent thought. With that thought understood, I will sometimes trail it off, my own mind now secure on that matter, or I will build on it. As I think the thought, information is still coming into my mind and storing itself, some becoming new fingers of the sea anemone and some less thought-provoking pieces just settling into the matter of what I already understand and does not need further contemplation.
> 
> On the inside of my mind - beyond the anemone that stretches near my face - it is, as I have said, a ball of understanding. (I apologize for those of you who have heard this explanation before). I am constantly honing this ball of understanding, constructing its core so that it fits it knows the world. This is also an understanding of my own understanding that I am perfecting, but if I learn something about human nature (whether through literature, my classes, or my own experiences) I will patch it into my current understanding of humanity accordingly (honing my understanding of the cruelty of humans, or the beauty of humans, or the simplicity, whatever it is I find). If it is a small thing, I will patch it lightly with other light understandings. If it is crucial, if it is deep, if it is something to shift my current understanding, I will not only patch it to the core but place it in the center of that core.
> 
> When I go to retrieve this information, these "truths" I've gathered, my mind somehow finds what it needs too in the bangle of my brain and pulls it out for me to use. A lot of times it is faulty - I forget specifics, and sometimes (most unfortunately) the logic behind my original thought - but it is still magical to me, how I can go back into my prior understandings to better hone my understandings.
> 
> And... I think that about covers what I understand of my brain.
> 
> (I have also never visualized some of these elements before to explain my brain, such as the anemone. These are just the best physical representation of the way my thoughts feel that I could think of.)
> 
> I'll tag @angelcat because I am wondering if she relates (especially since I can see how this could be Si/Ne with a touch of Ti)


this seems SO NI to me.


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> I will try to explain again how my mind works, although of course it is difficult because it I hard to explain one's mind with one post (especially since it is difficult to know one'a own mind).
> 
> DJArendee (or w/e his name is, you know the guy) once said that people with Ne have a thousand thoughts going on, while people without Ne do not have that. I relate with him in this way. Sometimes even the thoughts I have are not even being thought. When I think, I think in words, and sometimes I only see the word, but most the time it seems my mind is taking information in. The connection is silent. The thoughts are silent. I can be thinking of a few things at once, because they are one thing (it is difficult to explain and do not take this part literally), and by contemplating one thing it is also other things.
> 
> (Perhaps this is common, but it's just been weird to me. I wake up and I don't even have coherent thoughts, but knowing. Not supernatural knowing, but... My thoughts flow but are unexpressed. I remember that I am going to a party today and to the mall afterwards, and that my cousin will be there, and that I have his essay due, but the one word that comes to mind is one of my cousin's name. That holds the understanding. This works for other things as well, especially in school, but this is what just happened to me this morning.)
> 
> Throughout the day, my mind feels like a sea anemone. The thoughts and understandings come to me silently (I suspect they do that for all of us, perhaps?), and they wiggle (or buzz, or pull, it's difficult to represent) until I grab one out to formulate into a coherent thought. With that thought understood, I will sometimes trail it off, my own mind now secure on that matter, or I will build on it. As I think the thought, information is still coming into my mind and storing itself, some becoming new fingers of the sea anemone and some less thought-provoking pieces just settling into the matter of what I already understand and does not need further contemplation.
> 
> On the inside of my mind - beyond the anemone that stretches near my face - it is, as I have said, a ball of understanding. (I apologize for those of you who have heard this explanation before). I am constantly honing this ball of understanding, constructing its core so that it fits it knows the world. This is also an understanding of my own understanding that I am perfecting, but if I learn something about human nature (whether through literature, my classes, or my own experiences) I will patch it into my current understanding of humanity accordingly (honing my understanding of the cruelty of humans, or the beauty of humans, or the simplicity, whatever it is I find). If it is a small thing, I will patch it lightly with other light understandings. If it is crucial, if it is deep, if it is something to shift my current understanding, I will not only patch it to the core but place it in the center of that core.
> 
> When I go to retrieve this information, these "truths" I've gathered, my mind somehow finds what it needs too in the bangle of my brain and pulls it out for me to use. A lot of times it is faulty - I forget specifics, and sometimes (most unfortunately) the logic behind my original thought - but it is still magical to me, how I can go back into my prior understandings to better hone my understandings.
> 
> And... I think that about covers what I understand of my brain.
> 
> (I have also never visualized some of these elements before to explain my brain, such as the anemone. These are just the best physical representation of the way my thoughts feel that I could think of.)
> 
> I'll tag @angelcat because I am wondering if she relates (especially since I can see how this could be Si/Ne with a touch of Ti)


That strikes me incredibly much as Ni for as you still try to centralize it and gather an ideal core for further analysis. Ne has a slight rawness of the idea, it catches the idea in its palm and furthermore letting it float away in order to find even more ideas that are not exactly related but that have a slight connection. Ni finds surely related concepts and converges them to one core, _one idea to rule them all_ and continuously patches its understanding of the universe/consciousness/world as new information arises, it integrates. Ne is afraid of being leashed, Ni is afraid of deriving from what it knows through insight as its whole world can fall apart. That is why Ni users want one path to absolution, Ne wants to know it has 1000 paths without being limited to time. Ni is aware of time, Ne does not care for time. SJs also encounter difficulties with time due to this core issue.
Everything you say is about cores, Ni is fixated on cores so it has a starting point in anything it achieves or tries to achieve, that is why prediction is compulsory due to its rigid structures it has been founded through information from Se. The way you described your volley (or whatever it was) situation is Se being tickled by Ni. The ball is love, and you leave the world to the ideal of it returning the ball to you, as the human soul is the centre of essence. The world loves you in its ways.


----------



## Immolate

I agree with Ni.


----------



## Darkbloom

Yeah,still Ni


----------



## orbit

That sounded incredibly Si you guise!!1111! 

I don't see how that could be Si


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> That is one curious dog, I wonder if he knows you have named him Sir Biscuit. So adorable though...
> 
> 
> Btw @alittlebear I still see Ni in you, the way you are untouched by some issues, the way your mind wraps around moral issues and grasps the essence and a plan towards it, that is quite how Ni works, you are entitled to imprint your impressions around the existential clause of the human nature, even if you are Ni it does not rise the waters around Ne, you will still enjoy the company of Ne as it is one pleasurable function to see working. However the way you approach moral questions, stacked up with your Fe, it wants to see the same issue on both sides so that it reaches one truth to understand the world on a deeper level, how can so many contradictions live under the same imperium, your Ni tries to converge them and actually see the alternate meaning.
> 
> At least that is how I perceived the latest posts. It still looks to me as if you have a broad but stable tendency of understanding brought upon a cloud of thought.
> 
> 
> @angelcat Does Si tend to have internal maps of the world like Ni does but in a more concrete way ( i.e. experiences only or personified experiences) or does the Ne in SJs try to dismiss such an idea ?


I am about to read what you just said to me, but I think I will add this to directly respond (or try to respond) to your words on clouds. 

Right now all of this information about personality types feels something like a cloud, because a lot of it feels like interpretations and regurgitations rather than the core (Jung). When there is Jung, when Jung is referenced, I position it in my understanding of types at the center to try to support the clouds and grab onto some of the truths in them, but it am still up centered. I need something to hang this new information and evaluate it. This is why I am so determined to read _Psychological Types_, so I can finally framework what I am hearing about types and understand the theory myself (this, finally establishing my framework for type knowledge).


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> With 8 I felt I related a lot because of longing for independence and freedom, but I think my need for peace and going at my own pace was stronger so I settled on an anxious 9! It could also explain why you may seem 3ish as 9 integrates to 3.


True, but I'll sometimes provoke people to start arguments, kind of dismantling the peace 9 is supposedly built on. Doesn't really fit into that. :wink: Most of the 8 descriptions make it out to be a dumb muscle stereotype, I really hope that's not true. :tongue:


----------



## orbit

Someone sent me these definitions from Jung's book which may or may not be relevant: 



> Under sensation I include all perceptions by means of the sense organs; by thinking, I mean the function of intellectual cognition and the forming of logical conclusions; feeling is a function of subjective evaluation; intuition I take as perception by way of the unconscious, or perception of unconscious events. (p. 518)





> Sensation establishes what is actually present, thinking enables us to recognize its meaning, feeling tells us its value, and intuition points to possibilities as to whence it came and whither it is going in a given situation.





> The general-attitude types, as I have pointed out more than once, are differentiated by their particular attitude to the object. The introvert's attitude to the object is an abstracting one; at bottom, he is always facing the problem of how libido can be withdrawn from the object, as though an attempted ascendancy on. the part of the object had to be continually frustrated. The extravert, on the contrary, maintains a positive relation to the object. To such an extent does he affirm its importance that his subjective attitude is continually being orientated by, and related to the object. An fond, the object can never have sufficient value; for him, therefore, its importance must always be paramount.


----------



## Darkbloom

Barakiel said:


> True, but I'll sometimes provoke people to start arguments, kind of dismantling the peace 9 is supposedly built on. Doesn't really fit into that. :wink: Most of the 8 descriptions make it out to be a dumb muscle stereotype, I really hope that's not true. :tongue:


That could be 6 and it's not too anti-9w8 ,really depends why you provoke


----------



## fair phantom

@Barakiel have you read Timeless' descriptions of the different types? I really like those and found them among the most helpful.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Did you know Tony Stark is a rather splendid epitome of ENTPness. I expect you to be him. Why aren't you him. You need to develop a penis and muscles and money and live in America and grow a beard and be him.














hoopla said:


> Ok, there was some error in my thinking.
> 
> You need interactivity to absorb. Do you like conversations because you can ask for specifics or questions? Or because there's more to observe?
> @Greyhart I haven't seen enough of Wonder Woman to type, but I'll say ESTP because:
> 
> 1) She *does* things. Only SPs can be superheros. They fight for action. They indulge in scary stuff. Si is too busy staying safe and emulating the exact events of what they have done for exactly 20 years, down to the meals, the locations they went, the clothes they wear and ect. with absolutely no changes to be made. Ni is too busy trying to predict what will happen in the future in order to fight crime in the here and now, whereas Ne is too distracted by zany, random connections to do anything at all.
> 
> 2) Ti-Fe= Superhero
> Te-Fi=Villain
> 
> That's too stereotypical. How about Ti and Te have different goals which causes contention. Fe tries to solve the problem by rooting for the underdog, whereas Fi trying to fight for what's right. Since Fi cannot spare the details, Te barks at everyone and Ti-Fe casts Te-Fi as a villain, when both are superheros.
> 
> Silly, isn't it?


Omg. Her! xD
https://www.youtube.com/user/IISuperwomanII

Not her








The later one is probably mostly ENFJ in comics, tbh.



angelcat said:


> I honestly don't think a true non-Ni user could in any way identify with Ni. Flashes of insight? Gut instinct? Nah. That's the kind of stuff I scoff at, for the most part. Or did, until I realized it was Ni and it's often accurate in Ni types. Now, I am learning to trust it, but I know for sure I don't use it.


This. *half year ago reading extensive Ni post* What is this shit? Where's the ~logic~?! I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS.



alittlebear said:


> How can anyone have a poker face when upset? Oh my goodness. I actually think I look pretty after I get upset and have tears in my eyes, but nope... You can certainly feel my negative emotions when I am upset, and looking in the mirror I can tell if I am mad or upset especially. It's a bit annoying, to see the strength if my own emotions. I go "Oh, you. Stop being stupid." But I can't, lol. *The joys of being an F*.


Oi, I'm super expressive too 



Curiphant said:


> I cry when I'm angry and people are always like "HONEY YOU POOR THING DON'T CRY"
> 
> And I'm like "Can I act violently?"


"Leave me to be a crybaby or things will turn violent." Trying to calm me down if I am in stress break out just makes everything worse somehow. I stop crying the fastest if I am left alone for a bit. And then we never speak again that this happened at all. :|



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I can think of a Ti-Si loop being confused for xSTP.
> 
> An ExTP with developing Fe.
> 
> An ENTP stuck in a Tertiary loop.
> 
> An xSFJ developing Ne.
> 
> An ESTP using Fe-Se-Ti.
> 
> The most heartless Fe-Dom ever.


ENTPs don't get stuck in Ti-Si, it's INTP's thing. There's a Si grip but it's bad. Really bad. You'd know if you were there. Ne-Fe is a needy cry baby who constantly needs reassurance and is constantly afraid that others will turn their back on them. My tert Fe is alright so here it is Self-sustaining chemical system 💕 - tert Fe



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Ti vs Te confuses me. Both are based on systems and logic.


Te: the square peg doesn't fit round hole. We must get round one.
Ti: fixed it.











LuchoIsLurking said:


> @Greyhart -Your earlier statement about me being a counterphobic 6w7 is making sense. I can see 6w7, 8w7 and 4w5 as my enneagram, and 684 as my tritype, and sx so sp. It matches me better than 784, by a long shot.
> 
> I can also see xSxJ.


Told you. You seem like someone who turns towards potential problems, and stares into their eyes as they advance. Which is like "NOPE, bye" for 7s.



laurie17 said:


> 7 = action/experience - they fear boredom (or, not having experiences or action in their lives) and so will go to great lengths to avoid it. At lower levels, they can neglect basic daily tasks because they're boring, in favour of doing something they believe would be fun. At higher levels, they can be multi-talented and driven.


My life in few sentences. *sigh* ... I'd like to add though that the "actions and expiriences" and not only Se related but freash ideas and new potential for Ne too.



angelcat said:


> Sit down and watch a movie with an SJ. It goes something like this:
> 
> "I've heard this person's voice before... where... I'm getting an image of them in Victorian garb... which costume drama were they in? ... ah, this is bugging me! No, wait, I have it! _Bleak House_!! They were in _Bleak House_!!"


My ISFJ friend recently "Wow, Sam sounds like fem Shepard! A bit higher pitch but soo similar! Do you agree?" Me: *sweating* "I can't remember either of their voices aside from Sam saying "Daniel!" and some Shep's grumbling." I had to google videos of both to remember and she was right!



fair phantom said:


> Yeah it is important to look at lines of integration/disintegration. I mistyped as a 5w4 for awhile (and consistently tested as one) and probably appear like one to many who know me irl, but I realized that my mind fix is actually 7w6 because I am very passionate and enthusiastic about learning and really quite insatiable for knowledge/books/art and the like. I just seemed like a 5 because of the combination of the wing on the 4 and the fact that 7 integrates to 5. I can also seem 1ish at times, and I think that is because both 4 and 7 connect to 1 rather than actually having a 1 fix.


I initially thought I am 5w6 because I am book-y and nerdy. >_>


----------



## Barakiel

Living dead said:


> That could be 6 and it's not too anti-9w8 ,really depends why you provoke


Pretty much... because it makes me feel good. I love seeing people react and taunting people has a sort of euphoriac effect on me, maybe it's the trolling aspect, I don't know. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel have you read Timeless' descriptions of the different types? I really like those and found them among the most helpful.


I'll check them out, sure! :kitteh:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I am just hesitant to know if that is Ni. I think it might sound that way because I used metaphors to describe it and did use the word "core," but wouldn't Si do the same thing with the things they learned about the world... which is essentially what I am doing? I think I collect concepts and categorize them while the sensory details hang without categorization with some settling, but... Perhaps Si is the same way. 

Nevertheless, thank you for your "Ni confirmations" here @shinynotshiny @Curiphant @Living dead @fair phantom @NobleRaven


----------



## orbit

I related to 3 the most and that's what I scored besides a 9 on the stupid exams


----------



## Darkbloom

Barakiel said:


> Pretty much... because it makes me feel good. I love seeing people react and taunting people has a sort of euphoriac effect on me, maybe it's the trolling aspect, I don't know. :wink:


Still,you don't seem core 8(but perhaps it's no one believing in8s on online forums XD)
9 doesn't seem like it either,though
6w7 or 7w6 could maybe be like that,and I _think_ I'm a 2 but I have it when I'm angry and go to 8 XD
Or maybe I'm just a SX 4 after all :laughing:


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I am just hesitant to know if that is Ni. I think it might sound that way because I used metaphors to describe it and did use the word "core," but wouldn't Si do the same thing with the things they learned about the world... which is essentially what I am doing? I think I collect concepts and categorize them while the sensory details hang without categorization with some settling, but... Perhaps Si is the same way.
> 
> Nevertheless, thank you for your "Ni confirmations" here @shinynotshiny @Curiphant @Living dead @fair phantom @NobleRaven


I'm confused. You learned that from the world... Where else would you learn stuff from? Ni doesn't sound like it's in a whole another dimension


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> I am just hesitant to know if that is Ni. I think it might sound that way because I used metaphors to describe it and did use the word "core," but wouldn't Si do the same thing with the things they learned about the world... which is essentially what I am doing? I think I collect concepts and categorize them while the sensory details hang without categorization with some settling, but... Perhaps Si is the same way.
> 
> Nevertheless, thank you for your "Ni confirmations" here @shinynotshiny @Curiphant @Living dead @fair phantom @NobleRaven


The issue with Si is that, it is going to take it slightly through a matrix of _as it is_ , your ball from the situation is most likely able to trigger a specific scene from a movie they have seen, a book they have read, etc. and they might see the same love ideal however through the meaningful relationship the movie provoked around them before. You took the situation as it was and through the way the ball interacted with the environment, its movement, its limits, its probability of it being sent back to you, you internalized it and created a symbol for an understanding of love. Ni to you, ladies and gents.


----------



## Cesspool

Someone would have to examine you irl, watch how you go about interacting with things and the environment, but you couldn't know that they were there, so that you don't act differently. They would simply watch you from the shadows.

With the analysis they'd be able to figure out what you are, and they could tell you later. I'm not gonna do it cause that's a lot of work but if anyone else is interested go for it.


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> The issue with Si is that, it is going to take it slightly through a matrix of _as it is_ , your ball from the situation is most likely able to trigger a specific scene from a movie they have seen, a book they have read, etc. and they might see the same love ideal however through the meaningful relationship the movie provoked around them before. You took the situation as it was and through the way the ball interacted with the environment, its movement, its limits, its probability of it being sent back to you, you internalized it and created a symbol for an understanding of love. Ni to you, ladies and gents.


It seems Ni is more arbitrary than Si


----------



## orbit

Cesspool said:


> Someone would have to examine you irl, watch how you go about interacting with things and the environment, but you couldn't know that they were there, so that you don't act differently. They would simply watch you from the shadows.
> 
> With the analysis they'd be able to figure out what you are, and they could tell you later. I'm not gonna do it cause that's a lot of work but if anyone else is interested go for it.



That's mildly stalkerish


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Cesspool said:


> Someone would have to examine you irl, watch how you go about interacting with things and the environment, but you couldn't know that they were there, so that you don't act differently. They would simply watch you from the shadows.
> 
> With the analysis they'd be able to figure out what you are, and they could tell you later. I'm not gonna do it cause that's a lot of work but if anyone else is interested go for it.


Well actually no one is going to do it because I don't have any intention of letting anyone from here follow me around ever ;D

And I'm not even sure if that would be accurate, considering it have GAD and the way I act really does not reflect my true self (in my opinion).


----------



## AdInfinitum

Curiphant said:


> It seems Ni is more arbitrary than Si


Well, not really, Ni tends to take the situation as a whole and relate it to a greater cause. To a greater insight, probability, amazement of the universe. Si is stuck in its own realm of experience, Ni is stuck in its own realm of understanding.


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> Well, not really, Ni tends to take the situation as a whole and relate it to a greater cause. To a greater insight, probability, amazement of the universe. Si is stuck in its own realm of experience, Ni is stuck in its own realm of understanding.


Ah those poor Si and Ni users stuck on their own island. We better go rescue them


----------



## Barakiel

Living dead said:


> Still,you don't seem core 8(but perhaps it's no one believing in8s on online forums XD)
> 9 doesn't seem like it either,though
> 6w7 or 7w6 could maybe be like that,and I _think_ I'm a 2 but I have it when I'm angry and go to 8 XD
> Or maybe I'm just a SX 4 after all :laughing:


Heh, yeah, after reading a particular thread called Type Six Misidentifications, I definitely have 6 somewhere in the list, as I'm frequently contradictory, passive aggressive, and evasive, but not really fearful of the future, perhaps it's the 7 influence. :happy:


----------



## Cesspool

Both Si and Ni are terrible functions.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I am just hesitant to know if that is Ni. *I think it might sound that way because I used metaphors to describe it and did use the word "core,"* but wouldn't Si do the same thing with the things they learned about the world... which is essentially what I am doing? I think I collect concepts and categorize them while the sensory details hang without categorization with some settling, but... Perhaps Si is the same way.
> 
> Nevertheless, thank you for your "Ni confirmations" here @_shinynotshiny_ @_Curiphant_ @_Living dead_ @_fair phantom_ @_NobleRaven_


You insult me, alittlebear! I think the way you express yourself is as important as how you think (unless you're being a fake, in which case shame on you).


----------



## Immolate

Cesspool said:


> Both Si and Ni are terrible functions.


Dreadful.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Curiphant said:


> Ah those poor Si and Ni users stuck on their own island. We better go rescue them


They escape through the help of others, Si escapes through Ne as it sees many possibilities, therefore a wider set of ideas and understandings and Ni escapes through Se as exposed to new experiences and physical stimuli it is intrigued and tries to understand even more. So you could claim that others and their different types and different lunar ways of living, ideals, experiences help you escape of your own demons. :happy:


----------



## Darkbloom

Cesspool said:


> Both Si and Ni are terrible functions.


As well as Se,Ne,Fi,Ti,Fe and Te 
And especially enneatypes 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
So awful


----------



## Cesspool

I'm sorry for posting weird posts, I'm just jealous that you are so easily able to get a thread with over 300 pages in it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Cesspool said:


> I'm sorry for posting weird posts, I'm just jealous that you are so easily able to get a thread with over 300 pages in it.


It wasn't that way at first... You can look at my first typing thread. We got six pages I think, but most of it was my conversation with one person. Sometimes we camp on one person's thread... It all depends, sadly, on a few factors, but if you make a typing thread I will try to tag some people (or you can tag some people) and perhaps we can probe your type as we have some others here.


----------



## 68097

*walks in*

*sees thread is now over 300+ pages long*

*walks out*


----------



## AdInfinitum

angelcat said:


> *walks in*
> 
> *sees thread is now over 300+ pages long*
> 
> *walks out*


You coward! Come back, this is interesting!


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> They escape through the help of others, Si escapes through Ne as it sees many possibilities, therefore a wider set of ideas and understandings and Ni escapes through Se as exposed to new experiences and physical stimuli it is intrigued and tries to understand even more. So you could claim that others and their different types and different lunar ways of living, ideals, experiences help you escape of your own demons. :happy:


It's about teamwork and love <3


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> *walks in*
> 
> *sees thread is now over 300+ pages long*
> 
> *walks out*


*tug* I tagged you in a post about my mind, for the moment I'm just wondering if you can relate to it or see it as Si.


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> *walks in*
> 
> *sees thread is now over 300+ pages long*
> 
> *walks out*


You really are annoyed about the fact we can't stay on the objective?


----------



## AdInfinitum

Curiphant said:


> It's about teamwork and love <3


It is indeed an idea the human soul learns through this fragrant piece of life, he is born alone, he will live alone and die alone, yet the ideas and the love his soul has gathered will help his escape his own limits.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> It is indeed an idea the human soul learns through this fragrant piece of life, he is born alone, he will live alone and die alone, yet the ideas and the love his soul has gathered will help his escape his own limits.


 @hoopla do you see this casual poet


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> @hoopla do you see this casual poet


[capsifies]Do not feed her even more. [/capsifies]


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I will try to explain again how my mind works, although of course it is difficult because it is hard to explain one's mind with one post (especially since it is difficult to know one's own mind).
> 
> DJArendee (or w/e his name is, you know the guy) once said that people with Ne have a thousand thoughts going on, while people without Ne do not have that. I relate with him in this way. Sometimes even the thoughts I have are not even being thought. When I think, I think in words, and sometimes I only see the word, but most the time it seems my mind is taking information in. The connection is silent. The thoughts are silent. I can be thinking of a few things at once, because they are one thing (it is difficult to explain and do not take this part literally), and by contemplating one thing it is also other things.
> 
> (Perhaps this is common, but it's just been weird to me. I wake up and I don't even have coherent thoughts, but knowing. Not supernatural knowing, but... My thoughts flow but are unexpressed. I remember that I am going to a party today and to the mall afterwards, and that my cousin will be there, and that I have his essay due, but the one word that comes to mind is one of my cousin's name. That holds the understanding. This works for other things as well, especially in school, but this is what just happened to me this morning.)
> 
> Throughout the day, my mind feels like a sea anemone. The thoughts and understandings come to me silently (I suspect they do that for all of us, perhaps?), and they wiggle (or buzz, or pull, it's difficult to represent) until I grab one out to formulate into a coherent thought. With that thought understood, I will sometimes trail it off, my own mind now secure on that matter, or I will build on it. As I think the thought, information is still coming into my mind and storing itself, some becoming new fingers of the sea anemone and some less thought-provoking pieces just settling into the matter of what I already understand and does not need further contemplation.
> 
> On the inside of my mind - beyond the anemone that stretches near my face - it is, as I have said, a ball of understanding. (I apologize for those of you who have heard this explanation before). I am constantly honing this ball of understanding, constructing its core so that it fits it knows the world. This is also an understanding of my own understanding that I am perfecting, but if I learn something about human nature (whether through literature, my classes, or my own experiences) I will patch it into my current understanding of humanity accordingly (honing my understanding of the cruelty of humans, or the beauty of humans, or the simplicity, whatever it is I find). If it is a small thing, I will patch it lightly with other light understandings. If it is crucial, if it is deep, if it is something to shift my current understanding, I will not only patch it to the core but place it in the center of that core.
> 
> When I go to retrieve this information, these "truths" I've gathered, my mind somehow finds what it needs too in the bangle of my brain and pulls it out for me to use. A lot of times it is faulty - I forget specifics, and sometimes (most unfortunately) the logic behind my original thought - but it is still magical to me, how I can go back into my prior understandings to better hone my understandings.
> 
> And... I think that about covers what I understand of my brain.
> 
> (I have also never visualized some of these elements before to explain my brain, such as the anemone. These are just the best physical representation of the way my thoughts feel that I could think of.)
> 
> I'll tag @angelcat because I am wondering if she relates (especially since I can see how this could be Si/Ne with a touch of Ti)


Can't relate, no.

I keep lists in my head of things I need to do, and get overwhelmed at the sheer thought of most of them. Too much information all at once sends me into a meltdown. I tend to shuffle through them and fixate on one thing at a time, in order to handle it and feel less overwhelmed. Too much to juggle all at once sends me into hiding mode, where I camp out, procrastinate, and binge-watch TV shows to avoid picking which pursuit to do first.


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> It is indeed an idea the human soul learns through this fragrant piece of life, he is born alone, he will live alone and die alone, yet the ideas and the love his soul has gathered will help his escape his own limits.


May I quote you in my non-existent signature? It's so cynical and idealist at the same time, this is like anti-nihilist and it's perfect.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> [capsifies]Do not feed her even more. [/capsifies]


 @hoopla @hoopla @hoopla


----------



## AdInfinitum

Curiphant said:


> May I quote you in my non-existent signature? It's so cynical and idealist at the same time, this is like anti-nihilist and it's perfect.


Go ahead, it is flattering in a way, I am not used to people actually taking my thoughts into consideration. They just consider it silly.


----------



## orbit

Can dogs be typed?


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> @hoopla @hoopla @hoopla


You are basically feeding the demon, now she will analyse every word. You have sold my soul!


----------



## AdInfinitum

Curiphant said:


> Can dogs be typed?


Why not? Some have more personality than some people, we should make an MBTI system for pets.


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> Go ahead, it is flattering in a way, I am not used to people actually taking my thoughts into consideration. They just consider it silly.



Normally I'd be like "hur hur prentious poet gross" but like the way you worded and I forgot that we can escape our limits and it seems very relevant to remember always. I just like it sorry ><


----------



## AdInfinitum

Curiphant said:


> Normally I'd be like "hur hur prentious poet gross" but like the way you worded and I forgot that we can escape our limits and it seems very relevant to remember always. I just like it sorry ><


As long as it helps you understand more, you should not feel sorry. Go ahead, it delights me.


----------



## fair phantom

NobleRaven said:


> Why not? Some have more personality than some people, we should make an MBTI system for pets.


My boy cat definitely uses whatever the cat version of Fe is.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Curiphant in case you are wondering Lucky uses Si and Fi and my other dog uses Se and possibly immature Fe ^^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> Go ahead, it is flattering in a way, I am not used to people actually taking my thoughts into consideration. They just consider it silly.


_They're_ silly.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> My boy cat definitely uses whatever the cat version of Fe is.


I think my female cat uses Fi because she's coy and like leads you on... Like I'll try to pet her and then she'll run away and I'll have to follow her and she doesn't care when I give up. And she doesn't care that you prefer her in your lap, if something more important comes up in the form of a bird, she jumps off. Which makes her a hypocrite because she gets annoyed with me if I kick her off of me

I need to proofread


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> _They're_ silly.


People are silly by nature, that is what makes them special too.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> @Curiphant in case you are wondering Lucky uses Si and Fi and my other dog uses Se and possibly immature Fe ^^


How did you tell that was what I was thinking?

Do you relate to Lucky in your Si-ness?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Not to be cliche but my old cat was honestly an INTJ.


----------



## AdInfinitum

alittlebear said:


> Not to be cliche but my old cat was honestly an INTJ.


Did she plan murdering you in order to obtain the power over your household? Or sabotage you?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> How did you tell that was what I was thinking?
> 
> Do you relate to Lucky in your Si-ness?


Because we were just talking about dogs and you asked that here. Duh. 

Idk, Lucky is Si because like... It's hard to explain, but she grows wiser with her experiences, she just takes it all in and learns from what she knows. She also doesn't have the Se my new puppy does. I actually think Lucky is ENFP because especially as a puppy she seemed PE (but not like the probably ESTP puppy)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> Did she plan murdering you in order to obtain the power over your household? Or sabotage you?


He was just... too clever. He did the Fi thing Curi described where he would make you beg for his attention and never respond to your emotional desires, only what he wanted, but first he was clever. Even as a kitten, he figured out how to overpower and outsmart my (poor) dog (Te). As for the Ni... I don't know, he could be ISTJ I guess but he had a lot of Se and he seemed to know us and about the world in a way that Lucky cannot. (Not that that's always the case with Ni and Si, but... I do see him as INTJ.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

And I have an 8 crab who might be ETJ but it might be a bit too ridiculous to try to assign personality to a hermit crab.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> And I have an 8 crab who might be ETJ but it might be a bit too ridiculous to try to assign personality to a hermit crab.


Is this the cannabalist crab?


----------



## fair phantom

I'm not sure if the girl cat uses Fi because she is so self-contained and self-assured, or if she uses Fe because she knows just how to work people and get them wrapped around her adorable little paw. She's an introvert though. The boy is an extrovert. SUCH an extrovert. Are-you-really-a-cat extroverted.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Is this the cannabalist crab?


I consider her "the friendly transgender crab". But yes, she is also a cannibal.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I'm not sure if the girl cat uses Fi because she is so self-contained and self-assured, or if she uses Fe because she knows just how to work people and get them wrapped around her adorable little paw. She's an introvert though. The boy is an extrovert. SUCH an extrovert. Are-you-really-a-cat extroverted.


They both sound adorable


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I consider her "the friendly transgender crab". But yes, she is also a cannibal.


This thread fascinates me


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> This thread fascinates me


Given our twelve guests, I would say you are not the only one.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> They both sound adorable


They are my precious loves 









the black tortie is the girl Morgana; the blond tabby is the boy Ignatius (aka "Iggy" or "The Prince of Plush")


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I consider her "the friendly transgender crab". But yes, she is also a cannibal.


Does she have poker face/angry face or the Fe face?


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> They are my precious loves
> 
> View attachment 330522
> 
> 
> the black tortie is the girl Morgana; the blond tabby is the boy Ignatius (aka "Iggy" or "The Prince of Plush")


My blonde tabby humps his daddy so I'm a little jealous about how chill Iggy looks


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Does she have poker face/angry face or the Fe face?


Angry face, but friendly? I don't know, it's hard to read the faces of hermit crabs honestly. She's very friendly and inquisitive, but at the same time you kind of do know that she's a murderer from her disposition. I love her?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> They are my precious loves
> 
> View attachment 330522
> 
> 
> the black tortie is the girl Morgana; the blond tabby is the boy Ignatius (aka "Iggy" or "The Prince of Plush")


Oh my _goodness_!!


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Angry face, but friendly? I don't know, it's hard to read the faces of hermit crabs honestly. She's very friendly and inquisitive, but at the same time you kind of do know that she's a murderer from her disposition. I love her?


She sounds like you tbh.


----------



## orbit

Wait wait, what are your current thoughts right now about your type? Everyone was like NI NI NI NI NI

So now what?


----------



## Pyroscope

fair phantom said:


> They are my precious loves
> 
> View attachment 330522
> 
> 
> the black tortie is the girl Morgana; the blond tabby is the boy Ignatius (aka "Iggy" or "The Prince of Plush")


I have to admit, I can actually see the Fe in the blond tabby. IT'S IN THE EEEYES!

Also, they are adorable ^_^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> She sounds like you tbh.


----------



## AdInfinitum

fair phantom said:


> They are my precious loves
> 
> View attachment 330522
> 
> 
> the black tortie is the girl Morgana; the blond tabby is the boy Ignatius (aka "Iggy" or "The Prince of Plush")


My feelings... I love cats so much.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm answering this and then I should be doing the essay, sigh.


Curiphant said:


> Wait wait, what are your current thoughts right now about your type? Everyone was like NI NI NI NI NI
> 
> So now what?


It seems at the moment like I do use Ni. Which is mildly difficult to accept, considering most the NFJs I can think of are magical wonder birds and I am nothing like that. I still relate to ISFJ characters. But... Until @arkigos or someone else explains how I am Si, it does seem that I am an NFJ (if an NFJ with way too many issues). I've ready talked to you about how this is kind of sad to me (why did you even ask this question you know my thoughts already), but like... If that's what it is then that's what it is. 

But of course I really do think I'm going to have to read Jung to decide for sure. I'll try to go to the library soon and hope my county thought to harbor the book.


----------



## 68097

I do think you're ENFJ.

That being said, how do you do in the realm of purely abstract-driven conversations?

Went to brunch with my family today, and my dad was eager to spew theological abstractions at me that undo a lot of previously set Si mythologies about Christianity. He took out this paperback tome from a theological professor and proceeded to read aloud giant passages of sheer abstractions / non-specifications coached in idealistic dialogue (think C.S. Lewis' straight up theological works, times about a thousand), and then was annoyed because everyone at the table was like: "HUH?"

My STJ mother flat out couldn't get it, and didn't see what the point was at all (with her, everything needs a point -- why should I know this? how will it help me in the real world?). 

I could kind of get it, but I had to take the book away from him, stare at the passage for awhile, try and construct logical translations in my head from Ne/Ni into relate-able dialogue and examples, and promptly got tired of it -- whereupon I went back in my head to the Tudor timeline I'm mentally constructing. 

Meanwhile, I'd expect someone like @arkigos or Lewis or my INTJ friend would have understood it all, and kept up with it, and engaged my dad in the kind of mentally stimulating debate he was hoping for, whereas the rest of us were just... "ehh... so, what are your friends up to this weekend?"


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I'm answering this and then I should be doing the essay, sigh.
> 
> It seems at the moment like I do use Ni. Which is mildly difficult to accept, considering most the NFJs I can think of are magical wonder birds and I am nothing like that. I still relate to ISFJ characters. But... Until @arkigos or someone else explains how I am Si, it does seem that I am an NFJ (if an NFJ with way too many issues). I've ready talked to you about how this is kind of sad to me (why did you even ask this question you know my thoughts already), but like... If that's what it is then that's what it is.
> 
> But of course I really do think I'm going to have to read Jung to decide for sure. I'll try to go to the library soon and hope my county thought to harbor the book.


I wanted to prompt public opinion because I'm evil and I like forcing people to do stuff


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Good morning ya'll.


----------



## AdInfinitum

TelepathicGoose said:


> Good morning ya'll.


Oh god why... my feelings again...


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

NobleRaven said:


> Oh god why... my feelings again...


Isn't he adorable though?


----------



## AdInfinitum

TelepathicGoose said:


> Isn't he adorable though?


He is adorable... Good morning, dear goose goddess.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I do think you're ENFJ.
> 
> That being said, how do you do in the realm of purely abstract-driven conversations?
> 
> Went to brunch with my family today, and my dad was eager to spew theological abstractions at me that undo a lot of previously set Si mythologies about Christianity. He took out this paperback tome from a theological professor and proceeded to read aloud giant passages of sheer abstractions / non-specifications coached in idealistic dialogue (think C.S. Lewis' straight up theological works, times about a thousand), and then was annoyed because everyone at the table was like: "HUH?"
> 
> My STJ mother flat out couldn't get it, and didn't see what the point was at all (with her, everything needs a point -- why should I know this? how will it help me in the real world?).
> 
> I could kind of get it, but I had to take the book away from him, stare at the passage for awhile, try and construct logical translations in my head from Ne/Ni into relate-able dialogue and examples, and promptly got tired of it -- whereupon I went back in my head to the Tudor timeline I'm mentally constructing.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'd expect someone like @arkigos or Lewis or my INTJ friend would have understood it all, and kept up with it, and engaged my dad in the kind of mentally stimulating debate he was hoping for, whereas the rest of us were just... "ehh... so, what are your friends up to this weekend?"


I'm wondering what @Curiphant would say about my reaction to theoretical discussion, since we've known each other for too long and have certainly discussed our share of theoretical concepts. 

I want to say I do pretty well with them. I might be floating at first in their words and require some ropes to help me understand what they are referring to so I understand their point, but once I do that I think I engage pretty well in theoretical discussion. I am the opposite of your mother... to me theory is always, always applicable and important because it helps us truly comprehend our world, which is, again, what I seek to do. Some theoretical discussions are not interesting to me - hypothetical things, theoretical physics, those "what if" scenarios the boys in my class would come up with - but most I love, especially when it is something I have already pondered a bit (such as religion, basics of political concepts [I prefer theoretical political discussion over actual political discussion, honestly], sociology, psychology, morality, biology, literature...) I think I do quite well. I try not to engage in it here and usually get lost in my Fe when I engage in it here because I am not logical enough to go head-to-head with those here, but when I'm with my professors or upper class students or even just people in conversation I can talk theory all night (and love it). 

But, again, curious to see of Curi the Elephant sees me this way, if I am misperceiving myself again.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

NobleRaven said:


> He is adorable... Good morning, dear goose goddess.


Good morning to you as well, oh great Nobel Raven Queen.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I'm answering this and then I should be doing the essay, sigh.
> 
> It seems at the moment like I do use Ni. Which is mildly difficult to accept, considering most the NFJs I can think of are magical wonder birds and I am nothing like that. I still relate to ISFJ characters. But... Until @_arkigos_ or someone else explains how I am Si, it does seem that I am an NFJ (if an NFJ with way too many issues). I've ready talked to you about how this is kind of sad to me (why did you even ask this question you know my thoughts already), but like... If that's what it is then that's what it is.
> 
> But of course I really do think I'm going to have to read Jung to decide for sure. I'll try to go to the library soon and hope my county thought to harbor the book.


????


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> ????


I need a paper copy. I'm funky like that. Thank you for the link though!


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@alittlebear

A question for you:

What is one fault, maybe you have it, maybe others you know have it, that absolutely tears you apart inside? What is the _worst thing_ a person can do, be, etc.?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> A question for you:
> 
> What is one fault, maybe you have it, maybe others you know have it, that absolutely tears you apart inside? What is the _worst thing_ a person can do, be, etc.?


My selfishness. I hate it, and I am trying to work against it, but I acknowledge that our selfishness is one of the things that we as imperfect humans can never shed. 

The worst thing a person can do is choose to intentionally hurt others. To disregard the humanity of others, to try to justify hurting another person, to forget kindness. To gain joy from the pain of others. To decide hatred is right... and to act in their justification of that hatred. I do not think a person is irredeemable if they do these things, and I do not think they are defined by these faults, but these I truly believe are the deepest abysses humanity can fall into.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> My selfishness. I hate it, and I am trying to work against it, but I acknowledge that our selfishness is one of the things that we as imperfect humans can never shed.
> 
> The worst thing a person can do is choose to intentionally hurt others. To disregard the humanity of others, to try to justify hurting another person, to forget kindness. To gain joy from the pain of others. To decide hatred is right... and to act in their justification of that hatred. I do not think a person is irredeemable if they do these things, and I do not think they are defined by these faults, but these I truly believe are the deepest abysses humanity can fall into.


How very true. Selfishness can very much be the worst trait a person can have.
You're a saint. :kitteh:

All of this points to Fe dominance, or at least very high Fe. ENFJ seems like the best option, and you definitely have Ni over Si. Although, are you having difficulty considering yourself an extroverted type?


----------



## orbit

I'm on my phone and so I can't type much sorry but I feel like alittlebear is fluent in abstract. I don't remember details just impressions. 

Why not instead of her telling you, she shows it? Just a suggestion. We could all have an abstract conversation right now!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> How very true. Selfishness can very much be the worst trait a person can have.
> You're a saint. :kitteh:
> 
> All of this points to Fe dominance, or at least very high Fe. ENFJ seems like the best option, and you definitely have Ni over Si. Although, are you having difficulty considering yourself an extroverted type?


I actually almost got into a few debates over this a few years ago when my friends and I would discuss the Divergent factions. One girl kept saying that Erudite was right, because without ignorance humanity would get along. I sigh. No. That makes no sense. Without ignorance of people's humanity we would not hurt one another, yes, but dissolution of the ignorance of all knowledge that she was referring to would not solve any conflict. We would still disagree. Some of the "smartest" people are also the most cruel. No, we must forget ourselves and find true love for our every fellow man in order to truly find harmony in this plane of existence. 

I am not considering myself an extroverted type for a few reasons I don't think I have the time to get into now. I will be sure to discuss this matter later though ^^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I'm on my phone and so I can't type much sorry but I feel like alittlebear is fluent in abstract. I don't remember details just impressions.
> 
> Why not instead of her telling you, she shows it? Just a suggestion. We could all have an abstract conversation right now!


Because I'm supposed to be planning an essay on _The Great Gatsby_ right now  maybe we can schedule in a theoretical discussion later tonight or tomorrow though?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also @TelepathicGoose I am not a saint. I'm just a manipulative cow who hides her own cruelty and selfishness too well for her own good. Trust me, I have many things that would make me a bad person ^^


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> I actually almost got into a few debates over this a few years ago when my friends and I would discuss the Divergent factions. One girl kept saying that Erudite was right, because without ignorance humanity would get along. I sigh. No. That makes no sense. Without ignorance of people's humanity we would not hurt one another, yes, but dissolution of the ignorance of all knowledge that she was referring to would not solve any conflict. We would still disagree. Some of the "smartest" people are also the most cruel. No, we must forget ourselves and find true love for our every fellow man in order to truly find harmony in this plane of existence.
> 
> I am not considering myself an extroverted type for a few reasons I don't think I have the time to get into now. I will be sure to discuss this matter later though ^^


Alright, that's fine. I have some work to do myself...haha.

I'm starting to think you may be a real life INFJ. You probably would dislike identifying with that type, because of all the mistypes, of course. But, in all honesty, you do not strike me as an extrovert. An unhealthy extrovert will still be an extrovert nontheless.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Also @TelepathicGoose I am not a saint. I'm just a manipulative cow who hides her own cruelty and selfishness too well for her own good. Trust me, I have many things that would make me a bad person ^^


This may be true, but you intentions are saintly. To me, being a saint doesn't equate to having perfect actions, because no one is perfect. Being a saint is when you try to be as good as possible, or at least have intentions of doing so.


----------



## orbit

I think ignorance is the worst thing because if everyone was smart there would be no prejudice and everyone would be on the same playing field. We'd still be cruel but at least... I don't know people would have jobs and know to vote for people in their interests. 

My dad tells me poor white people vote for the top percent to keep their money in order to continue white supremacy and the top percent play on their prejudice


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I think ignorance is the worst thing because if everyone was smart there would be no prejudice and everyone would be on the same playing field. We'd still be cruel but at least... I don't know people would have jobs and know to vote for people in their interests.
> 
> My dad tells me poor white people vote for the top percent to keep their money in order to continue white supremacy and the top percent play on their prejudice


I personally believe there is no _one_ trait that has wronged humanity. I believe it is a mixture of everything, and no one thing can be blamed. Although, I think that ignorance and selfishness may be the worst of the 5.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> This may be true, but you intentions are saintly. To me, being a saint doesn't equate to having perfect actions, because no one is perfect. Being a saint is when you try to be as good as possible, or at least have intentions of doing so.


Hitler had good intentions 8D


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> I personally believe there is no _one_ trait that has wronged humanity. I believe it is a mixture of everything, and no one thing can be blamed. Although, I think that ignorance and selfishness may be the worst of the 5.


I agree 

But if I had the power...

Actually I might get rid of humanity all together 

Just kidding


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Hitler had good intentions 8D


I don't know why I thanked this post. 

I would continue to debate and explain how no, selfishness is the worst trait we have and dissolution of it while preserving our senses of selves and individual thoughts and perceptions would make for a truly perfect world, but is really am occupied at this time ~


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I agree
> 
> But if I had the power...
> 
> Actually I might get rid of humanity all together
> 
> Just kidding


are you


----------



## orbit

Oh wait we need to schedule!

And I understand. Have fun writing~


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> are you


No


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I agree
> 
> But if I had the power...
> 
> Actually I might get rid of humanity all together
> 
> Just kidding


:shocked::shocked::shocked: How could you!

Just kidding :kitteh:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Hitler had good intentions 8D


No. His intentions were morally wrong, so they were not "good."


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> No. His intentions were morally wrong, so they were not "good."


But he thought he was morally right to himself! He though he was improving the world. To us he's wrong 

Somewhere people think we are morally wrong and alittlebear has toxic ideas. Are we right or are they right?

Is there a universal moral code?

I don't believe in intentions, I believe in action. I mean having a good attitude is important but unless it results in something, it's meaningless


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> But he thought he was morally right to himself! He though he was improving the world. To us he's wrong
> 
> Somewhere people think we are morally wrong and alittlebear has toxic ideas. Are we right or are they right?
> 
> Is there a universal moral code?
> 
> I don't believe in intentions, I believe in action. I mean having a good attitude is important but unless it results in something, it's meaningless


I guess, I see what you're saying. 

I still think intentions amount to a lot, but you're right in that respect ^^


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> I guess, I see what you're saying.
> 
> I still think intentions amount to a lot, but you're right in that respect ^^


I think alittlebear's intentions are excellent because they amount to good action and they inspire others to be better because humans follow role models. So I agree with intentions do amounting 

And of course it's different if you accidentally kill someone and you intentionally kill someone. One means you won't do it again most likely and feel remorse, the other one is a little bit shady and reveals a mindset that you are willing to hurt people. 

I do think there is a universal moral code and murder is one of the no nos


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I think alittlebear's intentions are excellent because they amount to good action and they inspire others to be better because humans follow role models. So I agree with intentions do amounting
> 
> And of course it's different if you accidentally kill someone and you intentionally kill someone. One means you won't do it again most likely and feel remorse, the other one is a little bit shady and reveals a mindset that you are willing to hurt people.
> 
> I do think there is a universal moral code and murder is one of the no nos


Yes, I agree with this. 

You're right, actions do amount to a lot, but the intentions behind the actions matter as well. 

And yeah, there's sort of a universal moral code. Murder would be the #1 worst thing to do. And in my opinion, murder _is _the worst thing a person can do. 

If you intend to murder someone, you're already a bad person before you've even killed them. At least, in my opinion.


----------



## Immolate

What? Really? This is what I come back to.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> What? Really? This is what I come back to.


I wub you too :kitteh:


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> What? Really? This is what I come back to.


What's wrong?


----------



## Greyhart

Cesspool said:


> Both Si and Ni are terrible functions.


All hail the supreme Te-Se race. :tongue:



fair phantom said:


> They are my precious loves
> 
> View attachment 330522
> 
> 
> the black tortie is the girl Morgana; the blond tabby is the boy Ignatius (aka "Iggy" or "The Prince of Plush")


I miss my pets so much. :crying:



Curiphant said:


> I think ignorance is the worst thing because if everyone was smart there would be no prejudice and everyone would be on the same playing field. We'd still be cruel but at least... I don't know people would have jobs and know to vote for people in their interests.
> 
> My dad tells me poor white people vote for the top percent to keep their money in order to continue white supremacy and the top percent play on their prejudice





TelepathicGoose said:


> I personally believe there is no _one_ trait that has wronged humanity. I believe it is a mixture of everything, and no one thing can be blamed. Although, I think that ignorance and selfishness may be the worst of the 5.


Ne Ni difference? Because I am into "things have multiple points of causation" world-view too rather than singling something out.



Curiphant said:


> I agree
> 
> But if I had the power...
> 
> Actually I might get rid of humanity all together
> 
> Just kidding


u have shown ur dark nature








i'll keep my eye on u from now on



Curiphant said:


> But he thought he was morally right to himself! He though he was improving the world. To us he's wrong


To be cliched
"Road to Hell is paved with good intentions"
and
"Every villain is a hero in his own story"


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> What's wrong?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> Ne Ni difference? Because I am into "things have multiple points of causation" world-view too rather than singling something out.


Ah, possibly. That would make sense, as Ne users would be okay with multiple reasons for one thing, as opposed to Ni wanted one answer and one answer only.


----------



## Greyhart

How does one gets anything done and keeps up with this thread? I tried being productive today.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> How does one gets anything done and keeps up with this thread? I tried being productive today.


Well, I'm having a lazy day today.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> True, but I'll sometimes provoke people to start arguments, kind of dismantling the peace 9 is supposedly built on. Doesn't really fit into that. :wink: Most of the 8 descriptions make it out to be a dumb muscle stereotype, I really hope that's not true. :tongue:


I find I can be provocative too, but that can be explained by disintegration to counter phobic 6! You could well be an 8 though.


----------



## Cataclysm

Why does this thread have 300+ pages..?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> How does one gets anything done and keeps up with this thread? I tried being productive today.


I'm simultaneously working and checking PerC. My work right now is mindless copying so it's fine.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Fitzneter said:


> Why does this thread have 300+ pages..?


Because, we're talkative idiots, of course.


----------



## Greyhart

Fitzneter said:


> Why does this thread have 300+ pages..?


As it was said before we've found @alittlebear 's Ni hard to confirm or reject. Extensive research and pop culture references are required.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


> As it was said before we've found @alittlebear 's Ni hard to confirm or reject. Extensive research and pop culture references are required.


Why do I actually envision you like that? It is going to stick within me forever!


----------



## Greyhart

Don't listen to the Goose. She knows nothing.









Science is happening here. Science.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> Don't listen to the Goose. She knows nothing.


Excuse me, lady. You are incorrect on this assumption.


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> I do think you're ENFJ.
> 
> That being said, how do you do in the realm of purely abstract-driven conversations?
> 
> Went to brunch with my family today, and my dad was eager to spew theological abstractions at me that undo a lot of previously set Si mythologies about Christianity. He took out this paperback tome from a theological professor and proceeded to read aloud giant passages of sheer abstractions / non-specifications coached in idealistic dialogue (think C.S. Lewis' straight up theological works, times about a thousand), and then was annoyed because everyone at the table was like: "HUH?"
> 
> My STJ mother flat out couldn't get it, and didn't see what the point was at all (with her, everything needs a point -- why should I know this? how will it help me in the real world?).
> 
> I could kind of get it, but I had to take the book away from him, stare at the passage for awhile, try and construct logical translations in my head from Ne/Ni into relate-able dialogue and examples, and promptly got tired of it -- whereupon I went back in my head to the Tudor timeline I'm mentally constructing.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'd expect someone like @arkigos or Lewis or my INTJ friend would have understood it all, and kept up with it, and engaged my dad in the kind of mentally stimulating debate he was hoping for, whereas the rest of us were just... "ehh... so, what are your friends up to this weekend?"


Your Dad sounds fun!


----------



## Greyhart

NobleRaven said:


> Why do I actually envision you like that? It is going to stick within me forever!














TelepathicGoose said:


> Excuse me, lady. You are incorrect on this assumption.


----------



## fair phantom

I feel like I should take a shot every time someone comes in and asks why this thread has so many pages.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> I feel like I should take a shot every time someone comes in and asks why this thread has so many pages.


This thread is my life. It is the bread and wine of my existence.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


>


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


>


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


>


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I actually almost got into a few debates over this a few years ago when my friends and I would discuss the Divergent factions. One girl kept saying that Erudite was right, because without ignorance humanity would get along. I sigh. No. That makes no sense. Without ignorance of people's humanity we would not hurt one another, yes, but dissolution of the ignorance of all knowledge that she was referring to would not solve any conflict. We would still disagree. Some of the "smartest" people are also the most cruel. No, we must forget ourselves and find true love for our every fellow man in order to truly find harmony in this plane of existence.
> 
> I am not considering myself an extroverted type for a few reasons I don't think I have the time to get into now. I will be sure to discuss this matter later though ^^


Ugh don't even get me started on Erudite and Roth's annoying anti-intellectualism. I get it, some people at her college were arrogant cold snobs who were mean to her (Northwestern has that reputation). That doesn't mean that all people who value knowledge are like that and it certainly doesn't mean they don't also care about people. It drove me nuts.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> Ugh don't even get me started on Erudite and Roth's annoying anti-intellectualism. I get it, some people at her college were arrogant cold snobs who were mean to her (Northwestern has that reputation). That doesn't mean that all people who value knowledge are like that and it certainly doesn't mean they don't also care about people. It drove me nuts.


The trick is to be both knowledgable and kind.

_A well-rounded person is the best person_


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I just got back, sorry if I'm missing something important. 


fair phantom said:


> Ugh don't even get me started on Erudite and Roth's annoying anti-intellectualism. I get it, some people at her college were arrogant cold snobs who were mean to her (Northwestern has that reputation). That doesn't mean that all people who value knowledge are like that and it certainly doesn't mean they don't also care about people. It drove me nuts.


Hmm... As someone who was plainly a "nerdy" person, I can agree that her representation of people who value intelligence was very unfair. Personally, most and almost all the self-identified "brilliant" people I know could be described as "arrogant cold snobs," but I agree that's not how all are. Intelligence should be valued, and it should not be made to be something ashamed of. 

That said, I still thinkAbnegation is undoubtedly the faction that got it right. While the entire war was a falsity, given what is known about it by those in the faction system I think Abnegation was correct that the war (and all human cruelty) takes place due to our selfishness. I think that Amity is sort of right, with kindness being key, but... Self-forgetful love is the true key, I strongly think.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> This thread is my life. It is the bread and wine of my existence.


Please realize there are outlets to help with addiction to this forum thread. Like... in this forum thread.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Please realize there are outlets to help with addiction to this forum thread. Like... in this forum thread.


But either way I get to stay in this forum thread? Right?


----------



## orbit

Do you think it's worth it to go to Ivy League schools? I could possibly on that track but I don't think it's worth it :/


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> But either way I get to stay in this forum thread? Right?


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I feel like I should take a shot every time someone comes in and asks why this thread has so many pages.


As long as you are of age.


----------



## owlet

Back onto a topic vaguely resembling the thread's name, I was wondering how Si would act in dominant and tertiary position (i.e. for ISxJs and INxPs). I still have trouble with functions working differently in different places.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


>


----------



## Tad Cooper

fair phantom said:


> Ugh don't even get me started on Erudite and Roth's annoying anti-intellectualism. I get it, some people at her college were arrogant cold snobs who were mean to her (Northwestern has that reputation). That doesn't mean that all people who value knowledge are like that and it certainly doesn't mean they don't also care about people. It drove me nuts.


I dont think I know this, any sources?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> Back onto a topic vaguely resembling the thread's name, I was wondering how Si would act in dominant and tertiary position (i.e. for ISxJs and INxPs). I still have trouble with functions working differently in different places.


 @angelcat could probably help you with that - especially if you're not already familiar with her blog FunkyMBTIFiction, she has at least a handful of posts about that topic - but I would also suggest Socionics. I'm sure you're already familiar with that, but it has a lot on how different functions act in different positions.


----------



## orbit

Most obvious link: Funky MBTI in Fiction — How Si Acts in all 4 Positions



laurie17 said:


> Back onto a topic vaguely resembling the thread's name, I was wondering how Si would act in dominant and tertiary position (i.e. for ISxJs and INxPs). I still have trouble with functions working differently in different places.


----------



## orbit

What is Socionics actually?


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I just got back, sorry if I'm missing something important.
> 
> 
> Hmm... As someone who was plainly a "nerdy" person, I can agree that her representation of people who value intelligence was very unfair. Personally, most and almost all the self-identified "brilliant" people I know could be described as "arrogant cold snobs," but I agree that's not how all are. Intelligence should be valued, and it should not be made to be something ashamed of.
> 
> That said, I still thinkAbnegation is undoubtedly the faction that got it right. While the entire war was a falsity, given what is known about it by those in the faction system I think Abnegation was correct that the war (and all human cruelty) takes place due to our selfishness. I think that Amity is sort of right, with kindness being key, but... Self-forgetful love is the true key, I strongly think.


Are you sure you aren't a communist? :wink:

I don't think any of the factions were right...or rather, they were all partially right. Abnegation maybe hit upon the most important factor, but they make me think of the flagellants that would pop up in times of plague...ultimately not very helpful. And if you are selfless without knowledge and truth, how can you really know the best way to help others? And yes they did charity towards the factionless, but how did they treat members who failed to meet their high standards?

I went to a small liberal arts school and most people there were offbeat and individualistic, rather than controlling...more Luna Lovegood than Erudite. So I was annoyed by her transparent bias. She probably should have gotten more life experience before publishing, learned that people can be more varied than she thought.

To her credit, she did realize her error: Veronica Roth: On Erudite, Anti-Intellectualism, and the Overlap Between the Writer and the Story


----------



## orbit

I hate intelligence 

I did a stat project on happiness and advance classes and my partner and I did find significant evidence that if you take less than three advance classes at our school you tend to be happier :/


----------



## fair phantom

tine said:


> I dont think I know this, any sources?


about what part? The Northwestern reputation I mostly know from having many friends from Chicago who deliberately chose my college over it lol.


----------



## orbit

I think the Divergent was right. ^^ being tough and smart enough to be selfless


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom I could talk all day about my problems with Divergent. Admittedly, I just never clearly recognized anti-intellectualism as one of those problems. 

Even though I know it was said jokingly, in no way am I a communist. While humanity will only be truly free of cruelty and hatred if it let's go of it's selfish desires entirely, the fact is in this world that is impossible. People who seek to control people and make them become selfless are wrong. We can teach our children to be selfless, and try to instill values of love and true kindness in them, but at the end of the day we cannot force altruism upon anyone. It's a bit sad, but beautiful in its own way as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I hate intelligence
> 
> I did a stat project on happiness and advance classes and my partner and I did find significant evidence that if you take less than three advance classes at our school you tend to be happier :/


"I hate intelligence" says one of the smartest people I know.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@fair phantom

I never actually knew that Veronica Roth had a thing against intellectuals? (I'd like to consider myself an intellectual trainee, at least.) 

What exactly was the problem that she faced?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> "I hate intelligence" says one of the smartest people I know.


Smart does not mean fulfilled.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Smart does not mean fulfilled.


I can agree with that. I have a friend who is devoting her life to education because she thinks that education will heal the world and is the solution to all of her problems. While I think she is right, to an extent... If you try to teach a mother in Africa English Literature, and try to enlighten her, she's not going to have all her problems solved. If you try to teach my aunt English Literature, she's not going to have her problems solved. I agree that on a big scale education is important to help being up countries with a lower GDP and for communities even here in the United States, that education can be the key to the future for many children, but happiness is more important. Not everyone values education, and it think that we have to recognize the individual needs of people before we push education on them as the one answer.


----------



## fair phantom

TelepathicGoose said:


> @fair phantom
> 
> I never actually knew that Veronica Roth had a thing against intellectuals? (I'd like to consider myself an intellectual trainee, at least.)
> 
> What exactly was the problem that she faced?


She talks about it in that post I linked. She didn't get along with a lot of people in her school and they were judgmental jerks about commercial writing (and therefore her). And someone in her family was elitist and condescending. From that she basically developed a form of typism.

While it is true that elitism and intellectualism are too often found within the same person, they are by no means equivalent. And tbh, most elitists are guilty of ignorance and are therefore more faux-intellectual imo. They have pretensions of being knowledgable rather than actual knowledge.


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Most obvious link: Funky MBTI in Fiction — How Si Acts in all 4 Positions


Thanks for the link! I feel like I should have looked at it before...



alittlebear said:


> @_angelcat_ could probably help you with that - especially if you're not already familiar with her blog FunkyMBTIFiction, she has at least a handful of posts about that topic - but I would also suggest Socionics. I'm sure you're already familiar with that, but it has a lot on how different functions act in different positions.


I had a look on Socionics, but (as a few other people have said) it's a bit confusing in a way. It's strange, because it seems to make sense when I read it, but when I try to put it into use, it no longer works as well...


----------



## Max

You know intellectual intelligence isn't the end all and be all of intelligence? Intelligence is a broad spectrum, as is diversity.

A wise man once said: "I know nothing".

And that's true. Just because you know a lot of things, think a lot of 'intelligent' thoughts, and have a lot of academic qualifications, it doesn't make you any more/less intelligent than someone who has applied themselves, made records, knew what people wanted, sold them, made a living and retired to Cancun. 

Both are different types of intelligence suited to different people's strength/weaknesses/careers.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I can agree with that. I have a friend who is devoting her life to education because she thinks that education will heal the world and is the solution to all of her problems. While I think she is right, to an extent... If you try to teach a mother in Africa English Literature, and try to enlighten her, she's not going to have all her problems solved. If you try to teach my aunt English Literature, she's not going to have her problems solved. I agree that on a big scale education is important to help being up countries with a lower GDP and for communities even here in the United States, that education can be the key to the future for many children, but happiness is more important. Not everyone values education, and it think that we have to recognize the individual needs of people before we push education on them as the one answer.


Math problems will fill my empty stomacb


----------



## orbit

My internet


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Thanks for the link! I feel like I should have looked at it before...
> 
> 
> I had a look on Socionics, but (as a few other people have said) it's a bit confusing in a way. It's strange, because it seems to make sense when I read it, but when I try to put it into use, it no longer works as well...



No problem <3

You didn't know about it and you weren't expected to ^^


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I can agree with that. I have a friend who is devoting her life to education because she thinks that education will heal the world and is the solution to all of her problems. While I think she is right, to an extent... If you try to teach a mother in Africa English Literature, and try to enlighten her, she's not going to have all her problems solved. If you try to teach my aunt English Literature, she's not going to have her problems solved. I agree that on a big scale education is important to help being up countries with a lower GDP and for communities even here in the United States, that education can be the key to the future for many children, but happiness is more important. Not everyone values education, and it think that we have to recognize the individual needs of people before we push education on them as the one answer.


*nods* I think it is important to realize the role that ignorance plays in society's problems, but this does not just mean ignorance of what is found in book learning and formal education.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You know intellectual intelligence isn't the end all and be all of intelligence? Intelligence is a broad spectrum, as is diversity.
> 
> A wise man once said: "I know nothing".
> 
> And that's true. Just because you know a lot of things, think a lot of 'intelligent' thoughts, and have a lot of academic qualifications, it doesn't make you any more/less intelligent than someone who has applied themselves, made records, knew what people wanted, sold them, made a living and retired to Cancun.
> 
> Both are different types of intelligence suited to different people's strength/weaknesses/careers.


I know so many kids who acted like they knew everything. They take AP Government and think they know everything about politics, not realizing they just took the most basic equiviliant of a General Education Political Science course. Yet they thought they knew everything about the government... It doesn't work like that. I know I say that I aim to find the truth, and that I am annoyed when I see people grabbing at false truth that is untrue... but really it's more than that. I aim for the truth, but I am always looking for new knowledge that is closer to the truth that I can merge into my own. The people who think they have mastered ignorance and conquered the universal breadth of understanding are only kidding themselves, and are going to do at least some minor harm with their expansive foolishness.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I can agree with that. I have a friend who is devoting her life to education because she thinks that education will heal the world and is the solution to all of her problems. While I think she is right, to an extent... If you try to teach a mother in Africa English Literature, and try to enlighten her, she's not going to have all her problems solved. If you try to teach my aunt English Literature, she's not going to have her problems solved. I agree that on a big scale education is important to help being up countries with a lower GDP and for communities even here in the United States, that education can be the key to the future for many children, but happiness is more important. Not everyone values education, and it think that we have to recognize the individual needs of people before we push education on them as the one answer.


Huh. Education isn't just about useless literature.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Huh. Education isn't just about useless literature.


Literature isn't useless ;D I know that wasn't your main point but 

And I didn't mean that. I mean that the standard education that my friend is referring to - math, science, literature, perhaps history, social science - is not going to solve anyone's life problems. It might help some people, but sometimes people need more of something immediate. Water. Food. Shelter. Financial stability. Love. Kindness. Education is very crucial in the long run, but in the reality of it education is not going to lift everyone out of their hardships. It will help - if you have a child even in a family like mine who goes to college and makes money to support and help his family, inspires the next generation of his cousins to go to college, they will make a difference - but there are also other factors involved that are crucial in actually improving people's lives.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> She talks about it in that post I linked. She didn't get along with a lot of people in her school and they were judgmental jerks about commercial writing (and therefore her). And someone in her family was elitist and condescending. From that she basically developed a form of typism.
> 
> While it is true that elitism and intellectualism are too often found within the same person, they are by no means equivalent. And tbh, most elitists are guilty of ignorance and are therefore more faux-intellectual imo. They have pretensions of being knowledgable rather than actual knowledge.


Ah, I see. She always seemed a bit biased in that position, but I couldn't quite put a finger on what it was.

Thank you. ^^'


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I know so many kids who acted like they knew everything. They take AP Government and think they know everything about politics, not realizing they just took the most basic equiviliant of a General Education Political Science course. Yet they thought they knew everything about the government... It doesn't work like that. I know I say that I aim to find the truth, and that I am annoyed when I see people grabbing at false truth that is untrue... but really it's more than that. I aim for the truth, but I am always looking for new knowledge that is closer to the truth that I can merge into my own. The people who think they have mastered ignorance and conquered the universal breadth of understanding are only kidding themselves, and are going to do at least some minor harm with their expansive foolishness.


You are a hundred percent right except...


I really do know everything about mechanical engineering because I know basic parametrics


----------



## orbit

Do you guys identify as feminists? What is a feminist?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Literature isn't useless ;D I know that wasn't your main point but
> 
> And I didn't mean that. I mean that the standard education that my friend is referring to - math, science, literature, perhaps history, social science - is not going to solve anyone's life problems. It might help some people, but sometimes people need more of something immediate. Water. Food. Shelter. Financial stability. Love. Kindness. Education is very crucial in the long run, but in the reality of it education is not going to lift everyone out of their hardships. It will help - if you have a child even in a family like mine who goes to college and makes money to support and help his family, inspires the next generation of his cousins to go to college, they will make a difference - but there are also other factors involved that are crucial in actually improving people's lives.


I see it from a different angle, one that includes gender and race and other such factors. Throughout history, several groups of people have been denied an education or similar means of growth/empowerment and have had to rely on a system that works against them. I think education, practical education that leads to financial and social stability, is a necessary step forward.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I know so many kids who acted like they knew everything. They take AP Government and think they know everything about politics, not realizing they just took the most basic equiviliant of a General Education Political Science course. Yet they thought they knew everything about the government... It doesn't work like that. I know I say that I aim to find the truth, and that I am annoyed when I see people grabbing at false truth that is untrue... but really it's more than that. I aim for the truth, but I am always looking for new knowledge that is closer to the truth that I can merge into my own. The people who think they have mastered ignorance and conquered the universal breadth of understanding are only kidding themselves, and are going to do at least some minor harm with their expansive foolishness.


Oh, come on. What can you expect from high school kids.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Do you guys identify as feminists? What is a feminist?


I do. an intersectional inclusive feminist.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh, come on. What can you expect from high school kids.


Common sense and humility


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Common sense and humility


They're kids. Reality will hit them in the face sooner or later.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh, come on. What can you expect from high school kids.


Excuse me?


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Excuse me?


Because The Goose represents the majority of high school kids?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Do you guys identify as feminists? What is a feminist?


I identify as a free-thinker in all sorts. I tend to not like to join any sort of thinking clan.

Although, yes, I do identify as a feminist, although not in extreme parameters.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I see it from a different angle, one that includes gender and race and other such factors. Throughout history, several groups of people have been denied an education or similar means of growth/empowerment and have had to rely on a system that works against them. I think education, practical education that leads to financial and social stability, is a necessary step forward.


I definitely agree with you there - and while I did not fully address that argument, I did allude to it, that education is a big step forward for many communities, both internationally and nationally - but on a person-level education will not be the solution to everyone's problems. That was my point. My friend is a little extreme in believing that every single person requires full traditional education to have a fulfilled life, and that's something I know I can't agree with. (She comes from a family of principals and professors though, so it is understandable... It's just not quite the truth.) 

I do fully agree with you, though. You are absolutely right, and education will certainly help in a big picture with oppressed groups and individual persons both within first world countries and outside them. I was just also pointing out that on an immediate level education is not going to sooth the hurts of the world in this time.


----------



## orbit

I'm a high school student too and I'm as dumb as bricks 8D

Reality will hit me hard


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Because The Goose represents the majority of high school kids?


True...

Am I really that different? Sometimes I feel like an alien compared to my peers...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh, come on. What can you expect from high school kids.


Of course... but considering these kids I am referring to thought of themselves as the pinnacle of humanity and looked down on any other student because they alone were enlightened... I do expect more maturity from them. Unfairly, perhaps, but alas.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I definitely agree with you there - and while I did not fully address that argument, I did allude to it, that education is a big step forward for many communities, both internationally and nationally - but on a person-level education will not be the solution to everyone's problems. That was my point. My friend is a little extreme in believing that every single person requires full traditional education to have a fulfilled life, and that's something I know I can't agree with. (She comes from a family of principals and professors though, so it is understandable... It's just not quite the truth.)
> 
> I do fully agree with you, though. You are absolutely right, and education will certainly help in a big picture with oppressed groups and individual persons both within first world countries and outside them. I was just also pointing out that on an immediate level education is not going to sooth the hurts of the world in this time.


True, but we can't only think about it on an immediate level.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I'm a high school student too and I'm as dumb as bricks 8D
> 
> Reality will hit me hard


You are not arrogant and have an open mind. I think we will all experience some rockiness when we enter reality, myself included, but with the right attitude, spirit, and disposition, I think it is all able to be overcome.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> Of course... but considering these kids I am referring to thought of themselves as the pinnacle of humanity and looked down on any other student because they alone were enlightened... I do expect more maturity from them. Unfairly, perhaps, but alas.


As a wise man once said:

"I know nothing."

That is my philosophy in life.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Of course... but considering these kids I am referring to thought of themselves as the pinnacle of humanity and looked down on any other student because they alone were enlightened... I do expect more maturity from them. Unfairly, perhaps, but alas.


I was part of Gifted/IB circles and always saw them as people like everyone else. I didn't expect better or worse from them simply because they were deemed more intelligent or capable than the rest. Age/intelligence don't guarantee maturity.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> True, but we can't only think about it on an immediate level.


Sometimes I feel like we misinterpret each other? I'm not upset, it's just something that seems to happen a lot. (I do enjoy talking with you, though, and it don't want to make it seem as if I don't. It just seems like we can miss each other's points.) 

I'm not saying at all that we should *only* think about it on an immediate level. That's not what I mean at all. That's perhaps the opposite of what I mean. I think we should certainly be putting efforts forwards building a better future at the forefront, but we should not forget the realities involved with those who will not be able to participate in that fully idealized future. We should look at both parts and value them accordingly.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I was part of Gifted/IB circles and always saw them as people like everyone else. I didn't expect better or worse from them simply because they were deemed more intelligent or capable than the rest. Age/intelligence don't guarantee maturity.


Unfortunately we are misunderstanding each other again. 

In no way did I expect them to be better or smarter or more capable than everyone else. It's just that _they_ saw themselves as beyond ignorance and immaturity, and I found it sadly hypocritical that they were in fact in full crux of those faults.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Sometimes I feel like we misinterpret each other? I'm not upset, it's just something that seems to happen a lot. (I do enjoy talking with you, though, and it don't want to make it seem as if I don't. It just seems like we can miss each other's points.)
> 
> I'm not saying at all that we should *only* think about it on an immediate level. That's not what I mean at all. That's perhaps the opposite of what I mean. I think we should certainly be putting efforts forwards building a better future at the forefront, but we should not forget the realities involved with those who will not be able to participate in that fully idealized future. We should look at both parts and value them accordingly.


I understood you, but I feel it's pointless to focus on immediate impacts when true change is a long-term process.


----------



## orbit

On a personal level, education can not solve all problems. On a large scale, it does solve a lot of problems


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Age/intelligence don't guarantee maturity.


Shout it from the mountain tops. It's so true.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Unfortunately we are misunderstanding each other again.
> 
> In no way did I expect them to be better or smarter or more capable than everyone else. It's just that _they_ saw themselves as beyond ignorance and immaturity, and I found it sadly hypocritical that they were in fact in full crux of those faults.


You expected them to be more mature, that was my point.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Shout it from the mountain tops. It's so true.


I don't know how many Gifted/IB/intuitive/20-30 something idiots I've met so far in my life.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> You expected them to be more mature, that was my point.


I expected them to not be fully hypocritical beyond that of the standard hypocrisy in a high school student. Unfortunately, I asked too much of them there.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I understood you, but I feel it's pointless to focus on immediate impacts when true change is a long-term process.


Individuals matter </3


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Unfortunately we are misunderstanding each other again.
> 
> In no way did I expect them to be better or smarter or more capable than everyone else. It's just that _they_ saw themselves as beyond ignorance and immaturity, and I found it sadly hypocritical that they were in fact in full crux of those faults.


 I find that sort of hypocrisy infuriating.... And worry sometimes that I am guilty of it. Please someone tell me if I am so that I can correct myself and make reparations.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I understood you, but I feel it's pointless to focus on immediate impacts when true change is a long-term process.


Hmm... Well, I think we've found a real disagreement point there? But perhaps we're thinking of it on a different level. I think of a family who is struggling to survive. Their child is going to have a rough time in school if they do not receive financial support. I think of a village without fresh water. Their children will die and not be able to receive an education if they are not granted enough to meet their needs. The future should be aimed for, but not to the point where we lose sight of present obstacles.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I understood you, but I feel it's pointless to focus on immediate impacts when true change is a long-term process.


Ladies and gentlemen, an Ni-dom! 

(note: said with affection)


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Individuals matter </3


You have to be able to maintain the change, and that doesn't come quickly. That is my point. By all means, set up short-term goals and help the people in the here and now, but also think of a way to keep that relief in place.


----------



## orbit

Focus on now for a better future 

I don't think there's any gifted section in my school besides learning enrichment but that's self sign up. 

My friends and I are so stupid, we're almost like sheep. Sometimes I think we put our life worth into whether or not we understand how to split a sum of two vectors into two perpendicular components


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

I apologize, @shinynotshiny if I came off offended in any such way. You are correct, most high schoolers tend to be like that. And I am not without faults myself.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I find that sort of hypocrisy infuriating.... And worry sometimes that I am guilty of it. Please someone tell me if I am so that I can correct myself and make reparations.


I can understand this... And I also feel bad even as I type this and as I typed that, because if know that I am guilty of too many hypocrisies to be counted. I think what bothered me most about my fellow students in the 10% was that they thought themselves innately better than the other 90% of students at the school. My gosh, I can very hardly tolerate anyone who thinks they are worth more than another person.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Hmm... Well, I think we've found a real disagreement point there? But perhaps we're thinking of it on a different level. I think of a family who is struggling to survive. Their child is going to have a rough time in school if they do not receive financial support. I think of a village without fresh water. Their children will die and not be able to receive an education if they are not granted enough to meet their needs. The future should be aimed for, but not to the point where we lose sight of present obstacles.


You say that as if I would overlook these people in favor of sitting at a desk and mapping out the future. No.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Focus on now for a better future
> 
> I don't think there's any gifted section in my school besides learning enrichment but that's self sign up.
> 
> My friends and I are so stupid, we're almost like sheep. Sometimes I think we put our life worth into whether or not we understand how to split a sum of two vectors into two perpendicular components


How so does that make you stupid? What you place value on has nothing to do with intelligence...


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> I apologize, @_shinynotshiny_ if I came off offended in any such way. You are correct, most high schoolers tend to be like that. And I am not without faults myself.


I was an idiot myself in many ways. It comes down to life experiences, exposure to reality and pain and disappointment, forced responsibility, etc. You'll find that some high school kids, even younger kids than that, have had more responsibility on their shoulders than some adults.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Can we stop this heated discussion...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> You say that as if I would overlook these people in favor of sitting at a desk and mapping out the future. No.


And now it's my turn to acknowledge that I misunderstood you.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I was an idiot myself in many ways. It comes down to life experiences, exposure to reality and pain and disappointment, forced responsibility, etc. You'll find that some high school kids, even younger kids than that, have had more responsibility on their shoulders than some adults.


Yes, you're right...

It actually pains me, how many faults and ignorant tendencies I have. I realize that I am too young to be mature in an adult-like sense, and it bothers me whenever I notice it within myself. Meh.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Can we stop this heated discussion...


Is it heated...? I also feel like perhaps the tone is heated, but to me this is a very no personal discussion so I'm fine with exploring it. I just hope that it is the same, that there are no feelings involved here. I'm sorry if I am taking it too far.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Can we stop this heated discussion...


I'm not heated 

But I'll stop.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> How so does that make you stupid? What you place value on has nothing to do with intelligence...


Because it's unhealthy. If I get the calculations wrong then I get a B on the test and then your grade goes down and then you aren't the same person you thought you were and you aren't set for the path of greatness. 

Because when you put value in that then... That kind of what it implies

I'm getting out of it but still


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I often wish I could perfect myself before going out into the world, so I wouldn't make so many wholly mistakes and disrupt so many people. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that, but... I still long that it did.


Some mistakes are worth making early on.


----------



## fair phantom

TelepathicGoose said:


> And that, my friend, will improve with age.
> 
> (Even though I may or may not be younger than you...I don't know.)


Well I am older and I can confirm. I used to be like pathologically afraid of failure. Then I learned there is so much more that is important and that "failure" is part of the learning/growing up process. I am more proud of the times that I picked up the shattered pieces of myself and put myself back together than I am of the times when I was "perfect".


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> And that, my friend, will improve with age.
> 
> (Even though I may or may not be younger than you...I don't know.)


I'm older than you by a couple of months 8D

Eh it doesn't help now and I'm focused on now. I hope it does improve in the future but it still makes me anxious.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

20 guests on the thread. Oh my gosh.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


>


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> Well I am older and I can confirm. I used to be like pathologically afraid of failure. Then I learned there is so much more that is important and that "failure" is part of the learning/growing up process. I am more proud of the times that I picked up the shattered pieces of myself and put myself back together than I am of the times when I was "perfect".


That logically makes perfect sense


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> 20 guests on the thread. Oh my gosh.


Oh? I see 37. 

I judge all of you for lurking or keeping this page open while you dilly-dally somewhere else.


----------



## Greyhart




----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


>


Accurate.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


>


This short makes me upset because it's kind of true


----------



## Greyhart

We had no gifted are tho. It was all nothing special in my school. :laughing:


----------



## orbit

Sometimes I wonder how I got to the classes I'm taking and others not. Like I'm on the advance math track and I have no idea why besides my math teacher in fifth grade gave me this book and told me to study for it because I was skipping a grade (in math)

Why not others?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

As a potential elementary school teacher... I have every intention of bringing that beautiful fun I had in my gifted class into my regular classroom. Every child learns through interactive and memorable learning encounters, not just those who scored higher on their IQ tests.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh? I see 37.
> 
> I judge all of you for lurking or keeping this page open while you dilly-dally somewhere else.


Giving notice that I am stepping away for a bit and leaving the tab open because otherwise I'll forget where the conversation was when I left. :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Giving notice that I am stepping away for a bit and leaving the tab open because otherwise I'll forget where the conversation was when I left. :kitteh:


.....excused..... :ninja:


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> As a potential elementary school teacher... I have every intention of bringing that beautiful fun I had in my gifted class into my regular classroom. Every child learns through interactive and memorable learning encounters, not just those who scored higher on their IQ tests.


No you can determine the potential of a child by age 10!


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> As a potential elementary school teacher... I have every intention of bringing that beautiful fun I had in my gifted class into my regular classroom. Every child learns through interactive and memorable learning encounters, not just those who scored higher on their IQ tests.


I'd focus on disadvantaged communities.


----------



## Fuzzystorm

Curiphant said:


> Sometimes I wonder how I got to the classes I'm taking and others not. Like I'm on the advance math track and I have no idea why besides my math teacher in fifth grade gave me this book and told me to study for it because I was skipping a grade (in math)
> 
> Why not others?


That was exactly the case with my brother. His 3rd grade teacher simply thought he had potential and started teaching him 4th grade math. In 4th grade he was learning 5th grade math ... and so on. Also, EOCs at the end of 5th grade determine whether you'll be in 6th grade math/advanced 6th grade math the next year or if you can skip to Pre-Algebra so that you'll be in Algebra II by freshman year of high school. At least, that's how my school system did it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> No you can determine the potential of a child by age 10!


----------



## orbit

There needs to be a high teacher to student ratio

Kids need attention (and there's nothing wrong with wanting it despite what everyone says)

My elementary school had 7 kids in a classroom at a time some days and it was excellent


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Have you heard of
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> use them
> 
> 
> 
> before


I spoiled everything for you

Do you think MBTI can be applied to education? Like would you secretly type your children and play off their strengths and contour your lesson plans to the functions?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I actually wasn't referring to you or what you said.


She just likes to add stuff, she doesn't take much personally ^^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I spoiled everything for you
> 
> Do you think MBTI can be applied to education? Like would you secretly type your children and play off their strengths and contour your lesson plans to the functions?


Never. You look at a child as they are. You could mess them up falsely figuring out yor functions. See a child as they are, don't try to understand them through a framework. (But tbch I naturally see the strengths and weaknesses of my students so this is more of my policy on using MBTI. We've discussed this before I think.)


----------



## Greyhart

I suggest you change topic while I finish 40 min episode I've been watching for over 2 hours now.








Discuss!


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Agreed.
> 
> This society is just...


Society is well, society. It is what we make of it. We steer it in the direction we want it to take, and then we permit our propaganda through the media, and try our best to brainwash everyone into believing it.

Yes, I know most people have great intentions, and I know most of us try our best to improve society and want to see a change and aren't evil, but I don't think society as a whole will experience any drastic changes for the good anytime soon. 

Yeah, we can try our best to nuture people, and try and lead them down the 'right' path, and make a difference in our communities, but if they choose money and power over helpfulness and the truth... what can we do? It"s their choice at the end of the day.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I almost became teacher myself. I was by the graduation I was depressed and didn't care so parents sent me to try and get into English faculty which I did but dropped after 4 days. I kind of regret it now, diploma would be nice but the most I am is curious of what kind of a teacher I'd be.


You'd be very fun


----------



## Fuzzystorm

I've often thought of possibly becoming a teacher - I love giving presentations and talking about subjects that excite me. It would be wonderful to find a way to channel this into actually having an impact on other people and helping people in a meaningful way to learn and develop.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Society is well, society. It is what we make of it. We steer it in the direction we want it to take, and then we permit our propaganda through the media, and try our best to brainwash everyone into believing it.
> 
> Yes, I know most people have great intentions, and I know most of us try our best to improve society and want to see a change and aren't evil, but I don't think society as a whole will experience any drastic changes for the good anytime soon.
> 
> Yeah, we can try our best to nuture people, and try and lead them down the 'right' path, and make a difference in our communities, but if they choose money and power over helpfulness and the truth... what can we do? It"s their choice at the end of the day.


You know what the main problem is?

Thousands of people want to change the world, but no one actually _does _anything.
We'll never get anywhere if we don't actually partake in any actions.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Never. You look at a child as they are. You could mess them up falsely figuring out yor functions. See a child as they are, don't try to understand them through a framework. (But tbch I naturally see the strengths and weaknesses of my students so this is more of my policy on using MBTI. We've discussed this before I think.)


Have we?

You mentioned putting a different face for your students but not what you do with them


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> You know what the main problem is?
> 
> Thousands of people want to change the world, but no one actually _does _anything.
> We'll never get anywhere if we don't actually partake in any actions.


Everybody wants to rule the world,
No-one wants to change it,
And fight the evil on high places. 
Today, nobody cares,
But tomorrow there will be tears.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I suggest you change topic while I finish 40 min episode I've been watching for over 2 hours now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Discuss!




staaaaaaaaaaaay damn you










no it's okay I need a break


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Everybody wants to rule the world,
> No-one wants to change it,
> And fight the evil on high places.
> Today, nobody cares,
> But tomorrow there will be tears.


Oh, Lorde. Ahah.

Although, seriously, I really do desire to change the world for the better. I know I'm just one little girl...but...


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> staaaaaaaaaaaay damn you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no it's okay I need a break


My brain hurts.


----------



## orbit

Fuzzystorm said:


> I've often thought of possibly becoming a teacher - I love giving presentations and talking about subjects that excite me. It would be wonderful to find a way to channel this into actually having an impact on other people and helping people in a meaningful way to learn and develop.


I hope you find your calling

I want to be a college professor in Materials Science or Inorganic Chemistry

Which is really specific and will most likely change


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Oh, Lorde. Ahah.
> 
> Although, seriously, I really do desire to change the world for the better. I know I'm just one little girl...but...


It was actually Lordcho  Haha.

It's gonna be hard to change the world. Especially on your own. And impossible to change destiny, but I know you'll do something good someday. Even in your local community. You have it in you, Young Gosling 

I am gonna turn off my critical thinking mode, and go back to being a goofball, okay?


----------



## Fuzzystorm

Curiphant said:


> I hope you find your calling
> 
> I want to be a college professor in Materials Science or Inorganic Chemistry
> 
> Which is really specific and will most likely change


Right now I'm going into Business Journalism and hoping to pick up an internship somewhere notable and see where it goes from there. Who knows. Really though, I would love to teach English or history. Unfortunately I was not blessed with a math/science brain lol.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> It was actually Lordcho  Haha.
> 
> It's gonna be hard to change the world. Especially on your own. And impossible to change destiny, but I know you'll do something good someday. Even in your local community. You have it in you, Young Gosling
> 
> I am gonna turn off my critical thinking mode, and go back to being a goofball, okay?


Aww, thank you for the support.

Yes...me too...my mind is a bit tired atm.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Aww, thank you for the support.
> 
> Yes...me too...my mind is a bit tired atm.


I do actually mean that. 

And yes. As much as I love using Ti, it's just destroyed my mind. My brain battery is at like 33% right now. I need to go and look at some cat pictures to recharge lol.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> You know what the main problem is?
> 
> Thousands of people want to change the world, but no one actually _does _anything.
> We'll never get anywhere if we don't actually partake in any actions.


Hmm... Hmm. I don't know if this is the real problem... I think a lot of people do change the world in little ways... 

Can't comment more and don't know why I responded that but... I see what you're saying, but...

[and now I leave]


----------



## orbit

I used to be like "EVERYONE IS AN IDIOT. HOW CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND TITRATION. YOU ARE LAZY IDIOTS AND IF YOU JUST APPLIED YOURSELF YOU'D KNOW EVERYTHING." 

That's wrong though. Some people really do have difficulties learning 

Internships sound very important. Jobs seem like a combination of luck and skill

I have yet to determine if I want to change the world or even if I care if I make an impact. If I do, I think it'd be an arbitrary goal just to have a purpose and to enjoy it.

Like if I change the world... My life fulfillment is purely based on my own life experience and I'm a position of privledge and power so I could live a good life without working towards the betterment of the majority 

But at the same time I don't want to be an asshole 

But cosmically I don't care that I'm an asshole. 

I think I do want to help people through science. It would be fulfilling and helping for the sake of helping people is nice


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


>


**** Internetus in the native environment. Nature is truly majestic.









P.S. I still didn't finish that episode.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Are you kidding that's what literature was invented for.


I guess. 50 Shades Of Grey, though. Very bad example of this. But it goes to show how many horny housewives there are.


Fern said:


> What on earth does this have to do with this thread?


Dearie, have you not read the random tangents of the past 300+ pages of this thread? And besides, this is PerC, everything ends up sexual on here somehow.


----------



## orbit

Fuzzystorm said:


> I suppose that would depend on the individual and I guess, for some, their level of notoriety. Sure, they may not have become famous for any distinguishable talent, but do they donate to charity? Do they provide entertainment through reality television? (Whether it is actually "entertaining" is subjective). Do they model? (Not considered a talent by many, but is still a job that needs to get done/a position that needs to be filled). Have they released a clothing line/other line of products made available to poorer members of society? But I suppose socialites, by the rigid definition alone, would not contribute to society in this context since it is not a "position" such as actor, singer, athlete, etc.


Their money contributes more than their presence 

I think entertainment and modeling is important but usually their clothing and entertainment aren't quality


----------



## orbit

It does not have to be sexual. I'd prefer it would remain nonsexual please ^^'


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I guess. 50 Shades Of Grey, though. Very bad example of this. But it goes to show how many horny housewives there are.


hurricangst comments on Many women do not agree with me on this subject - but it's important. Behold. It's fascinating. I totally read fanfiction, though.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> It does not have to be sexual. I'd prefer it would remain nonsexual please ^^'


"How Dirty Is Your Mind Really?"


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I guess. 50 Shades Of Grey, though. Very bad example of this. But it goes to show how many horny housewives there are.
> 
> Dearie, have you not read the random tangents of the past 300+ pages of this thread? And besides, this is PerC, everything ends up sexual on here somehow.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


>


But you must read! I swear in 50 years (haha 50 u get it?) it's going to be taught as the part of literature classes... Or maybe business classes idk... Anthropology?



> "Twilight fanfic commonly has very little do with Twilight. Even Twilight's fandom hates Twilight."


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> hurricangst comments on Many women do not agree with me on this subject - but it's important. Behold. It's fascinating. I totally read fanfiction, though.


Reading it.. will comment soon.


shinynotshiny said:


>


Sorry Hon


----------



## Fuzzystorm

Curiphant said:


> Their money contributes more than their presence
> 
> I think entertainment and modeling is important but usually their clothing and entertainment aren't quality


True, but it is still _their_ money. As in, money they provide.

They may not be quality, no. But it's still providing a service.


----------



## Immolate

uh oh

Only 6 guests.


----------



## fair phantom

Aaaand I'm back. And caught up. And I did a video questionnaire that is probably way too long. :th_sur:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Aaaand I'm back. And caught up. And I did a video questionnaire that is probably way too long. :th_sur:


Did you post? :O


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I looked up ESTP and apparently I'm single because I'm a jock who loves sleeping around


Is that not you?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> uh oh
> 
> Only 6 guests.


We must have said something lame. Or perhaps it's because I left.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> We must have said something lame. Or perhaps it's because I left.


Well, you do have 13 members, so feel good about that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Sometimes I'm paranoid someone I know will stumble upon my tumblr and here and be like that's XXXXX!


I'm more worried about teachers and current classmates than anything. I know a few kids from high school who know my Tumblr, and I'm not too ashamed of it. Just as long as future employers don't gain access to it. Or enemies from my past. 

Your Tumblr is nothing to be ashamed of though. It's just a sweet rainbow.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also I think I sort of get Ne now. And how it's different from Se. I'm still crystallizing the difference, but I... see it now. 
@Greyhart @TelepathicGoose @Oswin you need to see Tomorrowland @hoopla you said it looked interesting I think? You would like it I believe @Curiphant heck I think you will love the themes in the movie 
@Fuzzystorm based on what I think you said (I think it was you?) about your view of impacting the world, I think you would like the movie's theme as well. 

Sorry. I'm tired. But the movie seemed very Ne and hopeful to me.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Did you post? :O


It's up now. *runs away and hides*


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> It's up now. *runs away and hides*


Ah! My next destination indeed. :wink:










P.S. Why is everyone bubbly, I feel like the emo kid in the corner.


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> I'm not sure how much faith I put in the loop idea overall. I can understand it, but I think it's more common to develop the tert function before the aux function anyway, so the tert function can be more healthily/naturally used than the aux in many cases (dominant introverted types are more likely to develop their tert introverted function due to the fact it requires less of an effort than the extraverted aux, but obviously that can lead to problems of not being able to effectively connect with the outer world - the reverse is true of dominant extraverted types, who are more likely to lose connection to their inner environment). Maybe the bit I wrote in brackets is something like a loop, where the lack of developed aux leads to a lack of connection to either the inner or outer environment and causes the individual to become unbalanced? I don't know about Fe dominant types becoming 'seductive', that sounds more like an individual response. I think the general overall thing would be Fe types aiming for more external approval/appreciation which could result in such behaviour.


So if looping did exist, how would you postulate it works?

And are you saying that extroverted pairs develop quicker than introverted functions if you are an extrovert, or vice versa if you are an introvert?

Oh I just realized that looping is where you depend solely on extrovert or introvert functions. Wow. Sorry I haven't considered looping much. 

I don't think I could become sexual because I think I'm asexual >< 

When I was depressed I literally sat by my desk and cried while writing why the future was going to be horrible and why it wasn't worth to going through my negative life experiences even if it did somehow improve. It was very woeful


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> What are the themes?


Give up on life because we're all going to die anyway. 

Nah. It was all about how you need people with optimism to change the world, even one person with hope is powerful enough to change the course of the future. It was quite inspiring, honestly. Had some assumed philosophy that I disagreed with, but the overall message was gorgeous.


----------



## cheshireperson

laurie17 said:


> I'm not sure how much faith I put in the loop idea overall. I can understand it, but I think it's more common to develop the tert function before the aux function anyway, so the tert function can be more healthily/naturally used than the aux in many cases (dominant introverted types are more likely to develop their tert introverted function due to the fact it requires less of an effort than the extraverted aux, but obviously that can lead to problems of not being able to effectively connect with the outer world - the reverse is true of dominant extraverted types, who are more likely to lose connection to their inner environment). Maybe the bit I wrote in brackets is something like a loop, where the lack of developed aux leads to a lack of connection to either the inner or outer environment and causes the individual to become unbalanced? I don't know about Fe dominant types becoming 'seductive', that sounds more like an individual response. I think the general overall thing would be Fe types aiming for more external approval/appreciation which could result in such behaviour.


Then in that case your tertiary function is auxiliary since it's used more. Maybe that could be the reason most or at least many people relate to ambiversion, and strong introversion or extroversion could be due to having your first two functions of your function stack be both either introverted or extraverted.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> Maybe Fe-Se would be feeling an intense need for appreciation/approval from others and only believing it's there through directly experiencing the results of it i.e. person X doesn't appreciate me because they never look like they do. Or something? Using weak Se to note details which reinforce negative Fe?


Hmm... I could certainly relate to that more. It means so much to me even when I get a smile from someone I interact with, and sometimes that means more to me than other times. I'm also ridiculous in my family for making my family members hug me if I'm feeling upset (to the point where my family was convinced it was a tic and refused to hug me... but nah, it's just me being emotionally needy).


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Give up on life because we're all going to die anyway.
> 
> Nah. It was all about how you need people with optimism to change the world, even one person with hope is powerful enough to change the course of the future. It was quite inspiring, honestly. Had some assumed philosophy that I disagreed with, but the overall message was gorgeous.


Ahhh that sounds sweet and feel good.


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> I was curious about the loops validity as well. Do you think it would be more likely that youd focus on the tert and inf functions or shadow functions? (I wondered how the the shadow comes into play with this as well).


I think it really depends on the individual. Some people will go to shadow functions, some to dom-tert, some people have their inferior come out strongly in bursts (but not for too long unless it's well-developed, because it's very unnatural and tiring). I think finding the four functions you relate to most, then trying to rearrange them is quite a good method. If you feel you judge, then work through backing it up/exploring it with data, you could look at the dominant judging functions and can do the opposite if you feel you collect data before judging at all.


----------



## Max

Can Fe users be blunt, when they need to be but in a constructive way? 

When I meet someone for the first time, I don't pass judgements on them. I give them a chance to be themselves. But if I notice someone has toilet roll hanging from their trousers, or they say something offensive etc, I'm not afraid to hint at that. Or if one of my friends tells me to be honest about what they wear. I will be honest if it doesn't suit, but I won't tear them down over it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I don't know how a person can only use one function, ever? I think perhaps it's just because I don't understand the theory, completely, but... Even when it seems like all I'm doing is using Fe, on the inside I'm definitely having logical Ti thoughts (just burying them). And wouldn't someone use Se all the time, just when they move or seek something physical? The thing about Se I might be messing up, but I do think that functions are more common and casual in their use than I think a lot of theory gives credit to.


----------



## Tad Cooper

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Can Fe users be blunt, when they need to be but in a constructive way?
> 
> When I meet someone for the first time, I don't pass judgements on them. I give them a chance to be themselves. But if I notice someone has toilet roll hanging from their trousers, or they say something offensive etc, I'm not afraid to hint at that. Or if one of my friends tells me to be honest about what they wear. I will be honest if it doesn't suit, but I won't tear them down over it.


no I think Fe would want to tell them because of it going against what they perceive as the correct action. I get this a fair amount with people being rude etc, it's not nice and creates a bad atmosphere so why did they do it?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I don't know how a person can only use one function, ever? I think perhaps it's just because I don't understand the theory, completely, but... Even when it seems like all I'm doing is using Fe, on the inside I'm definitely having logical Ti thoughts (just burying them). And wouldn't someone use Se all the time, just when they move or seek something physical? The thing about Se I might be messing up, but I do think that functions are more common and casual in their use than I think a lot of theory gives credit to.


The theory makes everything more pronounced than it has any right to be ^^


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> So if looping did exist, how would you postulate it works?
> 
> And are you saying that extroverted pairs develop quicker than introverted functions if you are an extrovert, or vice versa if you are an introvert?
> 
> Oh I just realized that looping is where you depend solely on extrovert or introvert functions. Wow. Sorry I haven't considered looping much.
> 
> I don't think I could become sexual because I think I'm asexual ><
> 
> When I was depressed I literally sat by my desk and cried while writing why the future was going to be horrible and why it wasn't worth to going through my negative life experiences even if it did somehow improve. It was very woeful


I think it would just be avoiding the effort of trying to either work through your inner or outer environment, preferring to remain in one or the other, because it's easier.
I don't think sexuality comes into MBTI or personality, really. 
Hm, maybe that was negative Ni predicting?



cheshireperson said:


> Then in that case your tertiary function is auxiliary since it's used more. Maybe that could be the reason most or at least many people relate to ambiversion, and strong introversion or extroversion could be due to having your first two functions of your function stack be both either introverted or extraverted.


Well, the thing is, the aux function is placed there because it's the opposite to your dominant in a way (dominant introverted judging, then aux extraverted perceiving) and the descriptions are generally of how the type would work ideally - many people i.e. ENFPs would overuse Ne and Te or INTJs might overuse Ni and Fi, which doesn't make it their aux, but means they don't fit the 'ideal' structure of the type.



alittlebear said:


> Hmm... I could certainly relate to that more. It means so much to me even when I get a smile from someone I interact with, and sometimes that means more to me than other times. I'm also ridiculous in my family for making my family members hug me if I'm feeling upset (to the point where my family was convinced it was a tic and refused to hug me... but nah, it's just me being emotionally needy).


Ah, maybe, then! I was sort of trying to work out how it might look and that could be a good real life example :happy: Them agreeing to hug you could = physical display of appreciation/approval. What do you think?


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> I don't know how a person can only use one function, ever? I think perhaps it's just because I don't understand the theory, completely, but... Even when it seems like all I'm doing is using Fe, on the inside I'm definitely having logical Ti thoughts (just burying them). And wouldn't someone use Se all the time, just when they move or seek something physical? The thing about Se I might be messing up, but I do think that functions are more common and casual in their use than I think a lot of theory gives credit to.


I think we're supposed to use all the functions but function via some more than others and all in different ways. So meditation usually activates the more immediate functions like Se, whereas taking a philosophy class would open up the theoretic functions more.


----------



## Tad Cooper

@laurie17 - Do you think that loops work with all the functions present i.e. dom inf, aux tert etc?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@laurie17 yes, perhaps hat could be it? For example, most recently my mom just yesterday mentioned that I had offended one of my cousins when I brought up weight. And that made me feel bad, so I compulsively said, "Mom, I need a hug," and en somehow that hug made me feel better. It doesn't make sense, really, since that hug won't stop my poor cousin from having been offended by me, but like the physical display of love and acceptance makes it better. Like, okay, I must not be too far lost in my stupid mistakes if I can still get a genuine hug like this. It's silly, and anxious, but


----------



## Pressed Flowers

tine said:


> no I think Fe would want to tell them because of it going against what they perceive as the correct action. I get this a fair amount with people being rude etc, it's not nice and creates a bad atmosphere so why did they do it?


For me, I just wouldn't want them to be made fun of. I don't care what my friends wear out, that's their choice, correct or not correct, but I do care if they are wearing something that will get both of us ostracized.


----------



## cheshireperson

laurie17 said:


> Well, the thing is, the aux function is placed there because it's the opposite to your dominant in a way (dominant introverted judging, then aux extraverted perceiving) and the descriptions are generally of how the type would work ideally - many people i.e. ENFPs would overuse Ne and Te or INTJs might overuse Ni and Fi, which doesn't make it their aux, but means they don't fit the 'ideal' structure of the type.


Isn't function stack based on to what degree you use that particular function?
Maybe if what you're saying is correct and some people are in perpetual "loops" (where they use their dom and tert functions most), then descriptions can further be divided based on that, which will make typing more accurate and more relatable to a larger group of people.


----------



## ae1905

alittlebear said:


> This makes me want to stop the thread.


Nooooooooo!!! 



laurie17 said:


> I don't think we can stop at this point.


Yesssssssss!!!


I can always count on a fellow NP to help out


----------



## orbit

I loved it when we talked about philosophy in Social Studies. People acknowledged that I was the best at it and I got a streak of ego. 

Nobody would get why the chair could not exist for them if they didn't see it! They were like yeah, it would exist without me knowing but the whole point was reality was based on your perception if you didn't perceive it exist, it didn't exist. Just an alternate way of thinking. 

I don't think that's true but I wish what was stopping them from understanding this


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> @laurie17 yes, perhaps hat could be it? For example, most recently my mom just yesterday mentioned that I had offended one of my cousins when I brought up weight. And that made me feel bad, so I compulsively said, "Mom, I need a hug," and en somehow that hug made me feel better. It doesn't make sense, really, since that hug won't stop my poor cousin from having been offended by me, but like the physical display of love and acceptance makes it better. Like, okay, I must not be too far lost in my stupid mistakes if I can still get a genuine hug like this. It's silly, and anxious, but


It's not silky because a hug acknowledges that you are still lovable even if you make mistakes and reaffirms that you aren't a horrible person even if the reality of making a mistake says otherwise


----------



## Max

You know what is horrible? When you like a person, but your friend dislikes them. And your friend is like "I HATE PERSON X, ISN'T HE SO ANNOYING?!" 
I don't wanna offend the person, but I don't wanna disagree with my friend.


----------



## Greyhart

Something's iffy about that Fe-Ne loop description. I think that Ne-Fe would be different from Fe-Ne loop. Too generalized.

For Ti desciption. I don't think I can deliver more coherent and depersonalized one that any you can find by googling. Like this. Introverted logic - Wikisocion

On personal scale I feel somewhat uncomfortable describing its workings because it makes me appear cold, robotic and kind of psychopathic in a way. And without Fe's moderation I could seem myself going some really bad roads.

I'll just quote something I've wrote earlier in a bout of 4 am inspiration.


> - What is beauty?
> I see everything as a system. Everything. Objectively I understand that it makes me look very impersonal and cold. Especially when I apply this view to the humanity, relationships and psyche. A few times I’ve voiced this sentiment to others I’ve had a very negative feedback. I understand that I looks like I am devaluing individuality but subjectively I don’t see it so. Yes, to me people are part of the system but each individual one is also a system. Biological, psychological and social construct on their own. Part of the great many bigger systems, influenced by them but also able to influence in return. Each part of the system is important but still interconnected with others. I don’t see it as an erasure of individuality. I find it beautiful.
> 
> - What do you want from life?
> I want to understand the system. Of everything. I want to know. I want to learn. Everything.
> 
> The systems on itself is not the goal, however. I don’t seek perfection in any system I see. Saying that something is truly perfect leaves no room for growth. I look for possibility of expansion, of seeing just how complex the system is and how it’s connected to the rest, what makes it tick, how it could be broken, how it could be fixed. How can _I_ break it. How can _I_ fix it.
> 
> Is it realistic or tangible? No. But the want or desire doesn’t have to be either.


In short, my Ti dissects reality into impersonal pieces. This is why I can't see myself getting Ti-Si loop - Si is trying to personalize things, add a meaning to them, while my Ti wants to strip that away to make me see cold crystal structure underneath it. I actually think that my Si only works in conjuncture with Fe since most of sentimental values I have are tided to other people rather than personal meaning. "This thing I can't throw or give up because it's a present from X, they put a thought and a feeling into it I can't discard that away... even if it's a useless junk."

Quite often I have theories that are based on a few bits I caught from some observations and then I do not look for facts or data to back it up. Does it make sense to me? That's enough, moving on. When I do look for info I tend to get clingy to my theories even if there's data contradicting it. Data could be wrong after all, what do I know about how it was acquired. It could be biased. Mine makes more sense and matches my own observations. I have some "scientific" theories that are neither supported nor disproved by facts but are seemingly not upheld by any one else and yet it makes much more sense to me than the ones presented by specialists. Still doesn't bother me, mine make sense. 

If you add Ni to that mix you get an ultimate conspiracy theorist.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Curiphant I actually don't like TV Tropes. I wonder what types would enjoy TV Tropes the most, honestly.


I get bored by that site because it seems... I don't know, not fresh, describing what is already obvious, oversimplifying it? Also I often disagree with tropes assignment when it comes to specific characters.


----------



## Darkbloom

@alittlebear,is it between INFJ and ENFJ again?

Sorry,can't read EVERYTHING XD,but it seemed like that


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> @alittlebear,is it between INFJ and ENFJ again?
> 
> Sorry,can't read EVERYTHING XD,but it seemed like that


I don't know, I'm actually discussing this with Curi now. Some things are ridiculously Ni-seeming about me, and I think a lot of us agree with that, but I'm still curious what @arkigos and @hoopla see that makes them say I'm not Ni at all. 

I am a bit caught between ENFJ and INFJ still, if it is so that I use Ni. I think I suffer the faults of an introvert, but there are still some terribly Fe-dominant aspects about me. @Curiphant thinks that INFJ descriptions fit me better than ENFJ descriptions do, but that could just be my anxiety making me seem less extroverted. I still have a hard time seeing myself as truly INFJ.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I don't know, I'm actually discussing this with Curi now. Some things are ridiculously Ni-seeming about me, and I think a lot of us agree with that, but I'm still curious what @_arkigos_ and @_hoopla_ see that makes them say I'm not Ni at all.
> 
> I am a bit caught between ENFJ and INFJ still, if it is so that I use Ni. I think I suffer the faults of an introvert, but there are still some terribly Fe-dominant aspects about me. @_Curiphant_ thinks that INFJ descriptions fit me better than ENFJ descriptions do, but that could just be my anxiety making me seem less extroverted. I still have a hard time seeing myself as truly INFJ.


Don't overthink anything until you get a response from them.


----------



## Greyhart

Personally I see don't see you as reality/people removed as I expect from Ni dominats. :| You posts are easier to comprehend.


----------



## Darkbloom

Greyhart said:


> Personally I see don't see you as reality/people removed as I expect from Ni dominats. :| You posts are easier to comprehend.


I agree XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Personally I see don't see you as reality/people removed as I expect from Ni dominats. :| You posts are easier to comprehend.


I try  

Yesterday I honestly felt so ridiculously Ni. I told Curi that "I had to be NFJ." I was working on my cousin's essay on _The Great Gatsby_, and I don't even like _The Great Gatsby_, when I first read it I decided it was about hopelessness and why hope is meaningless and I rejected it entirely, but I broke it down into one symbol for my cousin and doing that, I realized what a gorgeous text that a well written and insightful. I was gabbing about it to him and trying to explain tha symbolism and the argument I wanted him to make and I thought to myself, "This is so Ni." I wasn't even attached to what I was saying - I didn't care about what the text meant to me, I was enchanted by what Fitzgerald meant and what his themes mean universally - but I loved to do it anyway. My whole life is honestly symbolism and metaphors. It comes out especially when I can focus it in on literature, but... Really that convinced me that I am Ni. I was not being coherent. I had to slow down and try to explain things more basically to my cousin. I think an SFJ of course can find symbolism and meaning in a book like that - of course, Charity's done it - but I don't think they would in the way I did. 

And then, after we put the book away, I discussed with my aunt and felt very much like an Fe-dominant. I focus entirely on a person when I speak, and go out of my way to make them comfortable even subconsciously, which is something I don't see as much in the IxFJs I know. (Including the aunt I was talking to.) 

But... Again, I don't know. I could be mistaken.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I think an SFJ of course can find symbolism and meaning in a book like that - of course, Charity's done it - but I don't think they would in the way I did.


Can you explain why?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Curiphant I actually don't like TV Tropes. I wonder what types would enjoy TV Tropes the most, honestly.


Ugh, sometimes I get on TV Tropes and fall into a horrible spiral where I open every link and keep looking at it for hours.
So I love and hate it.
It will also leave me feeling kind-of existential about literature at the end, like, every character is a Mary Sue, all human achievement is just differently stacked tropes...which I know I shouldn't, but I do, and it's annoying)
However, I do enjoy it.

Also, I will answer tine's question when I'm at work and have thought about it for a bit)


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> Ugh, sometimes I get on TV Tropes and fall into a horrible spiral where I open every link and keep looking at it for hours.
> So I love and hate it.
> It will also leave me feeling kind-of existential about literature at the end, like, every character is a Mary Sue, all human achievement is just differently stacked tropes...which I know I shouldn't, but I do, and it's annoying)
> However, I do enjoy it.
> 
> Also, I will answer tine's question when I'm at work and have thought about it for a bit)


I notice "tropes" in real people too. It doesn't bother me, though. It had to come from somewhere, tropes didn't just spontaneously combust into existence. They are concentrated sum of typical behaviors that authors observed in real people.


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> For me, I just wouldn't want them to be made fun of. I don't care what my friends wear out, that's their choice, correct or not correct, but I do care if they are wearing something that will get both of us ostracized.


I think thats just you being a nice person!


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> It's so hard to keep up with the little specific titles they assign to the characters or the trend or whatever. Honestly I'm better at memorizing larger trends and archetypes without the smaller, too-specific and minuscule archetypes TV Tropes assigns. My memory can't keep up with their titles, only their ideas.
> 
> For my THG Parody though I'm probably going to be using TV Tropes quite a bit.


I don't care about the titles either, I just like reading their ideas on trends. I agree with you on their ideas. 

TV Tropes is nice because it's organized in a way that I don't have to care about organization ^^


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> For me, I just wouldn't want them to be made fun of. I don't care what my friends wear out, that's their choice, correct or not correct, but I do care if they are* wearing something that will get both of us ostracized*.


I curious what it could be though. I come up with only "Eve's costume". I generally enjoy attracting attention but tend to use sites like Hot Looks, by Hype + Newness | LOOKBOOK to check for trends that run around and see how can I mash clothes I own in an attention grabbing but stylish way.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I don't know, I'm actually discussing this with Curi now. Some things are ridiculously Ni-seeming about me, and I think a lot of us agree with that, but I'm still curious what @arkigos and @hoopla see that makes them say I'm not Ni at all.
> 
> I am a bit caught between ENFJ and INFJ still, if it is so that I use Ni. I think I suffer the faults of an introvert, but there are still some terribly Fe-dominant aspects about me. @Curiphant thinks that INFJ descriptions fit me better than ENFJ descriptions do, but that could just be my anxiety making me seem less extroverted. I still have a hard time seeing myself as truly INFJ.


I thought we were comparing ISFJ to INFJ. 

I haven't actually read the ENFJ description yet. Or I have but I don't remember it.


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> @_laurie17_ - Do you think that loops work with all the functions present i.e. dom inf, aux tert etc?


I'm not quite sure. I'd assume it's mostly the dom-tert ones because those are easier for the person to slip into. If you went to aux-tert, you'd still be using an oppositely focused function, so slightly more difficult and they might as well go to an unhealthy expression of their dom-aux. Dom-inf would be interesting, I'm not sure how likely that would be...



alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ yes, perhaps hat could be it? For example, most recently my mom just yesterday mentioned that I had offended one of my cousins when I brought up weight. And that made me feel bad, so I compulsively said, "Mom, I need a hug," and en somehow that hug made me feel better. It doesn't make sense, really, since that hug won't stop my poor cousin from having been offended by me, but like the physical display of love and acceptance makes it better. Like, okay, I must not be too far lost in my stupid mistakes if I can still get a genuine hug like this. It's silly, and anxious, but


Haha, I don't think it's silly if it gives you comfort. I actually don't think loops are all that bad, so long as they're in moderation. Everyone needs comfort now and again, especially if stressed.



Curiphant said:


> If I was looping with depression, I think I would have been introverted because I avoided people. But at the same time I was very open about emotions to my parents. Hm... But I kicked them out of my room a lot.
> 
> I was rationalizing why I had to die even though it didn't make any logical sense now that I think about it. Well it did but not emotionally logical. Idk.
> 
> I don't know which functions I was ignoring.


The open about emotion part sounds more Fe to me. I know at least in my case that I genuinely have difficulty communicating emotions to others, partly because of how they just don't translate to anything outside of myself (i.e. can;t be put into happy or sad, because there are connotations or feelings that go with these words that don't exactly match how I feel - Actually, I think introverted functions strive for clarity in both judgement and perception).

I'm not sure type can easily be correlated with depression or other mental illnesses though. Mental illness takes you out of being 'who you are' and changes that, due to chemicals altering themselves. I definitely wasn't like myself at all when severely depressed.



alittlebear said:


> I actually dislike discussing philosophy or deeper things in classroom discussion. College students know nothing about philosophy or politics or any bigger issue, even though we like to act like we do. In those discussions, again I feel caught up in the clouds. I much prefer to settle down and ask my professor his opinion, since he will deal with the matter intelligently and know what's really going on. (It's different with discussions of literature, I think. You don't have to be a pro to see symbolism. But philosophy is so much deeper and on another level entirely that I don't like speaking about it with people who have only begun to dig a hole to reach that level, especially since I'm only shallowly reaching philosophy myself. It feels like the blind leading the blind, and I don't want to get more lost than I am presently.)
> 
> Edit: @_Curiphant_ and my father are the exceptions. I will ignorantly talk philosophy all day with Curi the Elephant and my father.


I have a similar feeling with not enjoying discussing subjects much in classrooms - a big part is that many people feel like they need to impress everyone else. There was this guy in one of my classes this semester who would ask questions purely because he had his own answer and wanted to tell everyone. If his ideas had been great, I wouldn't have minded the disruption so much, but they were regurgitated and sometimes completely closed-minded (i.e. A.I. and technology are unnatural - but genetically modifying dogs through breeding is natural). I don't always trust the teacher's opinions either, because they're only human and have the same failings as everyone else. I tend to take bits and pieces from them, but not everything (you can generally tell teachers who are more likely to give comprehensive information because they'll admit when they don't know things).


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> Ugh, sometimes I get on TV Tropes and fall into a horrible spiral where I open every link and keep looking at it for hours.
> So I love and hate it.
> It will also leave me feeling kind-of existential about literature at the end, like, every character is a Mary Sue, all human achievement is just differently stacked tropes...which I know I shouldn't, but I do, and it's annoying)
> However, I do enjoy it.
> 
> Also, I will answer tine's question when I'm at work and have thought about it for a bit)


I like reading their complaints about plot holes because they get so indignant over and then there's a huge argument whether or not the plot hole is intentional or not. 

I love plot holes.


----------



## Greyhart

My INFP bff meanwhile Liquid Memories Dresses like this all the time. While we go walking too. I love it. :th_love: We live in rural city that is kind of stuck between USSR and "It's 21st" century. She's pretty much the only person in 300k population who dresses like this on a daily basis.








I'm so proud.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> I'm not quite sure. I'd assume it's mostly the dom-tert ones because those are easier for the person to slip into. If you went to aux-tert, you'd still be using an oppositely focused function, so slightly more difficult and they might as well go to an unhealthy expression of their dom-aux. Dom-inf would be interesting, I'm not sure how likely that would be..


Aye. How does one use Si at all? Pop culture references? Collecting junk? "DOCTOR, DOES THIS MOLE LOOK CANCEROUS TO YOU?!"? Not sure how I to get into Ti-Si.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Aye. How does one use Si at all? Pop culture references? Collecting junk? "DOCTOR, DOES THIS MOLE LOOK CANCEROUS TO YOU?!"? Not sure how I to get into Ti-Si.


Haha, I think maybe Ti-Si would be something like 'this mole looks cancerous because X, Y and Z and this doctor doesn't know what he/she's talking about because I have this information, so' etc.? Ti tends towards not really trusting qualifications etc. as proof of knowledge and this can develop negatively into thinking they've got the correct information (my ESFJ friend's inferior Ti comes out in debates and it's terrifying because he's completely 100% sure he's correct, but then he gets very stressed in debates so it's very negative Ti, rather than healthy Ti which is great and goes for clarity of thought and so on).


----------



## Greyhart

I actually had ... 4 moles removed despite doctor telling me it's OK. Not because I thought the doc is wrong but because I couldn't stop focusing on them and tbh lasering them out is way better than being anxious and checking them every 2 hours. I have some moles left but they are all around 1 mm in radius and are not... "raised" above the skin.


----------



## orbit

I have a natural compulsion to raise my hand because nobody else does and I need to "interact" with the material to learn and see if my knowledge is right there instead of on a test. 

My ideas are not original to be honest. >> I think I'm just regurgitating what's there. I wonder if this is because I'm Se or if I just don't apply myself or am forced to. 

But what's original and insightful?

The part about clarity makes sense for introvert. I am very picky about wording and loopholes like if someone says "Happy Memorial Day!" I'll be get annoyed because it's not very happy to remember the day. I notice alittlebear is very picky about her perceptions with Ni. 

After thinking about it, I don't think mental illnesses cause looping. At least in my case because I was using my functions just unhealthily and in a way that distorted things. I don't remember what was going on when I was depressed very clearly. All of my judgements and recollections that come from it come from my journal. 

Continuing on this path of unrelated topics, I looked up my dad's ratings on ratemyprofessor. It makes me wonder how we can trust our own perceptions and wisdom. Do we assume we're right and then make corrections along the way? Or can we withhold opinions until we know we are right?
Some of them we're like "he's very kind and he's an easy A."
Others were like "he's full of himself, makes so many mistakes, is ditzy, and does not know anything."
My dad makes mistakes because he wants to make sure they're paying attention :c

Being young and having a shallow foothold on the world sucks because how do you trust anything? But you knew that already yay


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> After thinking about it, I don't think mental illnesses cause looping. At least in my case because I was using my functions just unhealthily and in a way that distorted things. I don't remember what was going on when I was depressed very clearly. All of my judgements and recollections that come from it come from my journal.


It's extremely hard to for me "relate" to my behavior during depression too. I remember it but more like... like it was a movie I've watched. Or a book I've read. With lots of disconnect. "Did I really feel that bad? That's horrible, how did I live with that?"



> Continuing on this path of unrelated topics, I looked up my dad's ratings on ratemyprofessor. It makes me wonder how we can trust our own perceptions and wisdom. Do we assume we're right and then make corrections along the way? Or can we withhold opinions until we know we are right?
> Some of them we're like "he's very kind and he's an easy A."
> Others were like "he's full of himself, makes so many mistakes, is ditzy, and does not know anything."
> My dad makes mistakes because he wants to make sure they're paying attention :c


Ugh, just thinking about someone saying shit about my family makes me want to put them all into some rural house in Switzerland and bite off heads of anyone who tried to approach.


----------



## Darkbloom

is hypochondria really a Si thing necessarily?
Lol,makes me feel xSFJ XD


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Ugh, just thinking about someone saying shit about my family makes me want to put them all into some rural house in Switzerland and bite off heads of anyone who tried to approach.


Befriend the naysayers and manipulate them into ruining their own lives. Then leave them in their misery. Easier than biting off heads.


----------



## Immolate

Living dead said:


> Btw is hypochondria really a Si thing necessarily?
> Lol,makes me feel xSFJ XD


Isn't it inferior Si?


----------



## Darkbloom

shinynotshiny said:


> Isn't it inferior Si?


I don't know,tbh it seems like it could also be inferior Ne.Could it be inferior Ne?


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> Btw is hypochondria really a Si thing necessarily?
> Lol,makes me feel xSFJ XD


Hmm, don't think so. As a serious disorder a least.

It's more of rare episodes of fixation for me. Often influenced by someone or something else. Watched the program about <insert disease>? Something doesn't feel right with my body! Did it always feel like this? Dx I deal with it by being optimist. "Haha, maybe it is, maybe it isn't... We all perish one way or another."









Is that what one would call an optimism?


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Befriend the naysayers and manipulate them into ruining their own lives. Then leave them in their misery. Easier than biting off heads.


Your Se is a sneaky Se. My Se is this.



> ILEs are uninterested in forcing people to do things, and are not keen on those who impose their will on others, so they do not take well to direct commands. They often detest authority exercised in this way, and will often challenge abuses of power. *When backed into a corner by an aggressive Se, the often harmless appearing ILE will immediately rise to meet the threat and strike it down with carefully crafted ease.* The impact the ILE has on society is usually through his understanding of how the world works rather than a position of material influence. For example, an ILE might rather advise a person in power than hold an official position of high authority. He will only take such a position if it is necessary (and if no one else will do so).


----------



## Darkbloom

Greyhart said:


> Hmm, don't think so. As a serious disorder a least.
> 
> It's more of rare episodes of fixation for me. Often influenced by someone or something else. Watched the program about <insert disease>? Something doesn't feel right with my body! Did it always feel like this? Dx I deal with it by being optimist. "Haha, maybe it is, maybe it isn't... We all perish one way or another."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that what one would call an optimism?


Hmm,it's similar for me except that I go crazy for days XD
I'm normally not like that,but some things trigger me and I go like "What if I die before I have kids,that'll make my life useless" or something similar,it's not even about me surviving or not
But yeah,I too solve it with optimism eventually XD


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Your Se is a sneaky Se. My Se is this.


:th_Jttesur:


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> It's extremely hard to for me "relate" to my behavior during depression too. I remember it but more like... like it was a movie I've watched. Or a book I've read. With lots of disconnect. "Did I really feel that bad? That's horrible, how did I live with that?"
> 
> 
> Ugh, just thinking about someone saying shit about my family makes me want to put them all into some rural house in Switzerland and bite off heads of anyone who tried to approach.


Switzerland confuses me. Doesn't a lot of bad stuff happen there but nobody cares?

They're like really aggressive but neutral at the same time and they're just like WE'LL AGGRESSIVELY MAKE SURE THINGS STAY AS THEY ARE AS IT IS. 

Or at least that's why my rudimentary knowledge of Switzerland history based on the world wars and current neutrality tell me. 

Am I mixing it up with another country? I probably am


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Switzerland confuses me. Doesn't a lot of bad stuff happen there but nobody cares
> 
> They're like really aggressive but neutral at the same time and they're just like WE'LL AGGRESSIVELY MAKE SURE THINGS STAY AS THEY ARE AS IT IS.
> 
> Or at least that's why my rudimentary knowledge of Switzerland history based on the world wars and current neutrality tell me.
> 
> Am I mixing it up with another country? I probably am











I know almost nothing about the country but I thought this^

Also leaving something for safe keeping there seemed like a good idea.


----------



## orbit

Very pretty and peaceful

Looks like a place I'd want to go to contemplate murder


----------



## Max

Back.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> I'm not quite sure. I'd assume it's mostly the dom-tert ones because those are easier for the person to slip into. If you went to aux-tert, you'd still be using an oppositely focused function, so slightly more difficult and they might as well go to an unhealthy expression of their dom-aux. Dom-inf would be interesting, I'm not sure how likely that would be...
> *Yeah, I was trying to figure out what it would be like but dont know if it would be able to work as theyre extreme opposites in strong positions.*
> 
> The open about emotion part sounds more Fe to me. I know at least in my case that I genuinely have difficulty communicating emotions to others, partly because of how they just don't translate to anything outside of myself (i.e. can;t be put into happy or sad, because there are connotations or feelings that go with these words that don't exactly match how I feel - Actually, I think introverted functions strive for clarity in both judgement and perception).
> *I find I have to watch others to work out the best way to express the emotion. I can be fairly open with positive feeling but no negative ones. Is that similar with you?
> *
> I'm not sure type can easily be correlated with depression or other mental illnesses though. Mental illness takes you out of being 'who you are' and changes that, due to chemicals altering themselves. I definitely wasn't like myself at all when severely depressed.
> *I agree, mental illness is something separate from personality, although it changes you it isnt actually you.
> *
> I have a similar feeling with not enjoying discussing subjects much in classrooms - a big part is that many people feel like they need to impress everyone else. There was this guy in one of my classes this semester who would ask questions purely because he had his own answer and wanted to tell everyone. If his ideas had been great, I wouldn't have minded the disruption so much, but they were regurgitated and sometimes completely closed-minded (i.e. A.I. and technology are unnatural - but genetically modifying dogs through breeding is natural). I don't always trust the teacher's opinions either, because they're only human and have the same failings as everyone else. I tend to take bits and pieces from them, but not everything (you can generally tell teachers who are more likely to give comprehensive information because they'll admit when they don't know things).
> *I also find discussing things in large groups difficult, but maybe thats because it's hard to get through to people? I had a lot of class discussions and found that it was very strange and interesting seeing people's views. One guy who I think uses Te dom was very much "Stop using your emotive reasons and use statistics" whereas some girls who's types I have no idea about talked about it very much from their own point of view, without considering both sides or all sides of the debate. I found I tended to contribute a lot when something came up I understood and wanted to share my thoughts on. I tried to debate in a way that accomodated other people's opinions (I didnt openly dismiss any unless they were really really wrong i.e. someone said "Malaria is natural selection so why should we bother curing it?" which I couldnt ignore.*


I replied in bold.


----------



## Immolate

Nothing to do with the thread but I came across this and thought of you, @Greyhart. Also Goose because jello.


----------



## Max

You know what I noticed? Things make sense to me inside my head, but outside that... it's just gone xD


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> "Malaria is natural selection so why should we bother curing it?"











That one would be so entertaining to engage in.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Curiphant said:


> I have a natural compulsion to raise my hand because nobody else does and I need to "interact" with the material to learn and see if my knowledge is right there instead of on a test.
> 
> My ideas are not original to be honest. >> I think I'm just regurgitating what's there. I wonder if this is because I'm Se or if I just don't apply myself or am forced to.
> 
> But what's original and insightful?
> 
> The part about clarity makes sense for introvert. I am very picky about wording and loopholes like if someone says "Happy Memorial Day!" I'll be get annoyed because it's not very happy to remember the day. I notice alittlebear is very picky about her perceptions with Ni.
> 
> After thinking about it, I don't think mental illnesses cause looping. At least in my case because I was using my functions just unhealthily and in a way that distorted things. I don't remember what was going on when I was depressed very clearly. All of my judgements and recollections that come from it come from my journal.
> 
> Continuing on this path of unrelated topics, I looked up my dad's ratings on ratemyprofessor. It makes me wonder how we can trust our own perceptions and wisdom. Do we assume we're right and then make corrections along the way? Or can we withhold opinions until we know we are right?
> Some of them we're like "he's very kind and he's an easy A."
> Others were like "he's full of himself, makes so many mistakes, is ditzy, and does not know anything."
> My dad makes mistakes because he wants to make sure they're paying attention :c
> 
> Being young and having a shallow foothold on the world sucks because how do you trust anything? But you knew that already yay


That's interesting as I raise my hand more out of feeling bad for the lecturer is no one else bothers...
I'd say original is rearranging old stuff into a new thing (as nothing is completely new).
With knowing something, I think that depends on your judging and perceiving functions, dom and aux. So maybe you would perceive it as real because you see it and feel it, but another person perceives it as real because they can picture it in their head?


----------



## AdInfinitum

angelcat said:


> Probably ... obsessed with the conceptual essence of things, as opposed to its details. Super intense, analyzing the hell out of whatever futuristic ambition or ideal Ni possesses, but not making much progress in terms of actualization.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry. I do give off those vibes. There's a reason my sweet, sensitive little BFF calls me "Sherlock." She says, "I don't care if you're NOT the same type -- you act just like him. Intense. Erratic. Analytical. Detached."
> 
> I don't know how I landed in the ISFJ group. I'm really nothing like most of them.


Well, I love your way of being, you are independent and sweet in mysterious ways, you do not jump around but let people love you for an independent stripe of logic and intelligence. Of course, others who do the opposite have their own motives, I just feel as if you are unique and uniquely liked. That is why I wanted to help you on your blog, I admire you in some ways.


----------



## owlet

TelepathicGoose said:


> Ah, I see. I understand this.
> 
> But...what the hell about me? I think my Fi is dominant over my Ne, because I can control my Ne but my Fi is very intuitive and is something that sticks within me whether I want it to or not. However...I don't know.


What do you mean by it being something that sticks within you? Is it that Fi is always present while other functions aren't? Does Ne seem to disappear sometimes? It might be that you just don't go into loops so much...


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Hm, for me it's more figuring out the most accurate method of expression that adequately illustrates my 'inner environment' to people I trust. I don't want to say 'I'm happy' when it's not really that, partly because that's just not what it is and partly because it's dishonest.
> 
> The not wanting to dismiss people and considering things from all angles almost sounds like Ne-Fe... I'm not sure though. The Fe does seem quite strong in what you said, at least it's not like the Te dominant guy you mentioned.


Oh no I dont mind if they do or not, it was just that they didnt. Yeah the Te guy was very much "statistics are the only thing that will convince me" whereas I went from a more 'human' perspective of "This happened with me/someone I know and led me to this conclusion"


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think I have been introspecting too much. I need to go do something to satisfy my Extroverted Functions.


Observe people.









P.S. guys I'm still watching episode from yesterday. :th_woot:


----------



## Tad Cooper

TelepathicGoose said:


> I want gummy bears :crying:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

laurie17 said:


> What do you mean by it being something that sticks within you? Is it that Fi is always present while other functions aren't? Does Ne seem to disappear sometimes? It might be that you just don't go into loops so much...


Yeah, my Fi is _always_ there, but I'm not consistently using Ne. 

Especially when I'm sad, I go into super Fi-Si mode when I'm sad and neglect my normal idea-making splendor. 

But I do have a _lot _of Ne, and I'm very creative, so I don't know still.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

tine said:


>


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


>


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

I need to leave for a bit, due to homework. I will return in roughly 30 minutes to an hour~


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> *shrug*
> 
> I don't seem good enough in the realm of abstracts to be INTP, as well as having a "let's get this done" mentality. I'm pretty driven to finish things. I do tend to have a little of that "freaked out, catastrophic low-order Ne" going on. I'm pretty good at reading people emotionally / figuring out how they work / pushing their buttons, so ... I think Fe and Ti in some order.
> 
> @_arkigos_ once said I'm Si, Ne, Fe, and Ti in some order but that neither NTP nor SFJ fits me all that well, since I seem to float around between them.
> 
> An INTJ I sometimes discuss matters with says I have a ton of Te; another one said he thought I was an ESTJ back when we were chatting, but .... I don't know. Hermione? I wish. I'd make more money that way.
> 
> My own ruthlessness worries me, at times.
> 
> ETA: I think being an Enneagram 6 really screws with my typing a lot. ISFJs are usually people-pleasing 2s, from my experience. The extent of my 2 is, "Here, let me help you by solving all your problems... you don't want my help? Fine. 'Bye." LOL


ISFJ doesn't seem to fit, I'm not sure I see the Te your friend does (but he knows you better), a 6's focus on security and stability...

I want clarity :bored:


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


>


NO.


----------



## Greyhart

Don't tie being creative to high Ne or any N. Personally, I am creative on words but when it comes to doing something I'm "meh, I'd rather watch someone else do it." and try to convince others (artist friends, mother, so on) to do it for me. Or just imagine how it could be and it's enough. :|


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> *shrug*
> 
> I don't seem good enough in the realm of abstracts to be INTP, as well as having a "let's get this done" mentality. I'm pretty driven to finish things. I do tend to have a little of that "freaked out, catastrophic low-order Ne" going on. I'm pretty good at reading people emotionally / figuring out how they work / pushing their buttons, so ... I think Fe and Ti in some order.
> 
> @arkigos once said I'm Si, Ne, Fe, and Ti in some order but that neither NTP nor SFJ fits me all that well, since I seem to float around between them.
> 
> An INTJ I sometimes discuss matters with says I have a ton of Te; another one said he thought I was an ESTJ back when we were chatting, but .... I don't know. Hermione? I wish. I'd make more money that way.
> 
> My own ruthlessness worries me, at times.
> 
> ETA: I think being an Enneagram 6 really screws with my typing a lot. ISFJs are usually people-pleasing 2s, from my experience. The extent of my 2 is, "Here, let me help you by solving all your problems... you don't want my help? Fine. 'Bye." LOL


Your personal typing doesn't seem of utmost importance to you? 

What types would care insanely about their type? (if you've already answered this, don't answer because after I type this out I'll go check it on your tumblr.)


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> Oh no I dont mind if they do or not, it was just that they didnt. Yeah the Te guy was very much "statistics are the only thing that will convince me" whereas I went from a more 'human' perspective of "This happened with me/someone I know and led me to this conclusion"


Oh, do you view things from many angles, or prefer to just take one view and argue that? I think debates are quite good for showing personality types, because you actively see perceiving and judging preferences.
I think being confident in putting your experience forward is possibly introverted perception?



TelepathicGoose said:


> Yeah, my Fi is _always_ there, but I'm not consistently using Ne.
> 
> Especially when I'm sad, I go into super Fi-Si mode when I'm sad and neglect my normal idea-making splendor.
> 
> But I do have a _lot _of Ne, and I'm very creative, so I don't know still.


Oh, that does sound probably more like INFP, just with well-developed Ne aux. Because it's extraverted, it's more likely that people will notice your Ne (or Te) anyway.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

laurie17 said:


> Oh, that does sound probably more like INFP, just with well-developed Ne aux. Because it's extraverted, it's more likely that people will notice your Ne (or Te) anyway.


It does? Are you certain? I hate how many types I've been mistyped.

I need to go for a bit, I'll be back soon..


----------



## Immolate

tine said:


>







emberfly's ISTJ thread ruined me


----------



## orbit

tine said:


> Oh no I dont mind if they do or not, it was just that they didnt. Yeah the Te guy was very much "statistics are the only thing that will convince me" whereas I went from a more 'human' perspective of "This happened with me/someone I know and led me to this conclusion"


Stastics tend to be er... Not truly representative because they aren't random. Or people deliberately misinterpret. At least commercially. I'm not sure I could trust people not to be biased in their surveying. Unless it's private statistics. Or at least that's what my statistics' book says. 
I prefer your method. One human example tends to be very demonstrative in some ways. Of course it misses things but... I think it's a more accurate estimate of the "parameter"/truth


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> ISFJ doesn't seem to fit, I'm not sure I see the Te your friend does (but he knows you better), a 6's focus on security and stability...
> 
> I want clarity :bored:


You and me both. 

Me + Jung / MBTI:










Something else I don't get -- how most ISFJs can do the same crap all the time. How insanely BORING.

I've been procrastinating for months about re-reading one of my novels, to finalize and publish it, but ... I wrote the damn thing. I've moved on. Having to go back to it, AGAIN, is torture. It's an engaging book. Great plot. Quick moving. But I've been there, done that, don't care to relive it. I'm like that with most stuff. Going back and doing revision on old manuscripts and stuff is DULL. I do it because it needs done, but ... sigh.

In terms of pragmatism, I'm very practical and aggressive. But I've had STJ friends and damn, are they blunt. More so than me IRL. I'm just ... enigmatic, and argumentative, and problem-solving, and my emotions kick up once in awhile to frustrate me. Meh.

And then I hang out with my ISFJ friends, who are so sweet, and sensitive, and worried about my feelings, and I'm like: _you don't have to worry about it. Really, I'd have to be pathetic to be mad about this. I'm not five._

Like, I care that you can't come for my birthday? Why would I care? It's nice if you're there, sure, but I'm not going to hate you forever if you're not. Good grief.


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> It does? Are you certain? I hate how many types I've been mistyped.
> 
> I need to go for a bit, I'll be back soon..


Why the hell Ne aux would be less "creative" than Ne dom? If anything INxPs are more likely to stick to ideas and see them through.



> I said Ne [dominant] is like microwave popcorn. It just keeps popping. When you think it has stopped, another goes off. And most pieces are undercooked or burnt. It is a bunch of black popcorn and kernels. lol. It is an explosion of ideas. Very easily distracted, and moved around by the object.





shinynotshiny said:


> emberfly's ISTJ thread ruined me


I NEED IT.

that being said her voice felt like a cheese grater against my brain


----------



## owlet

TelepathicGoose said:


> It does? Are you certain? I hate how many types I've been mistyped.
> 
> I need to go for a bit, I'll be back soon..


Umm, I'm never really certain, sorry! I think it's likely, but maybe you could say how you, for example, tend to think in a debate or something? Or describe how you work through problems.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

laurie17 said:


> Umm, I'm never really certain, sorry! I think it's likely, but maybe you could say how you, for example, tend to think in a debate or something? Or describe how you work through problems.


Sorry this is late >.<

Can you give me a debate topic to do? I could explain my thought process then.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> My 2 cents on loops:
> 
> I think depression tends to "dampen" extroverted functions, so I think that extroverts dealing with depression can get stuck auxiliary-inferior loops.


Depression dampens _everything_ tbh.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

_i HAVE RETURNED YA'LL_


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Personally I see don't see you as reality/people removed as I expect from Ni dominats. :| You posts are easier to comprehend.


Exactly... and she doesn't seem to be broken or startled by new concepts. Ne gobbles them up... feeds off of their blood. Ni doesn't like that sort of fluff... it negates them from their mission.


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> Depression dampens _everything_ tbh.


true, but is there a difference in how extroverted functions and introverted functions are affected? or at least the former would be more obvious? perhaps it is different with Extroverts, but while my introverted functions may not work well when I'm depressed, my Ne only works in a very basic way (i can sort of recognize possibilities and i can understand abstract ideas, but there is no...energy) and it is observable. that is why I try to engage my Ne when I feel depression starting to set in: if it is activated I can usually avoid an episode, or at least decrease it's severity. And this seems to be what I have observed in others. But then I know more introverts with depression than extroverts (or maybe they just seem like introverts...certainly possible), so it was mostly just an idea I have been entertaining.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@laurie17

Is there anyway to test whether I use Fi first or Ne first? Like, ask me something and see how I respond with it?


----------



## Greyhart

I really need to finish my train of thoughts before pressing post.

This is an addition to @angelcat being "no ISFJ-ish".

So IIRC her mom is ISTJ and dad is ENFP? If Si is a subjective function that builds along with your life than @angelcat growing up with mother who is rational and dad who is "weee screw convention" I'd _expect_ her to take their traits and at very least heavy influence her world view.

My parents are ISTJ step-dad and ESFJ mom. I was raised on "family is THE most important thing" and "don't lie" mantras. I am insanely protective towards my family (beaten probably by just my mother). Since I was kid I preferred to tell the truth and take the punishment than to lie. I am stingy with my money and don't care about aesthetics as long as the thing does what I has to like my dad does, but also (try to be) diplomatic and compassionate as my mother.

If I were to raise SJ kid pretty sure they wouldn't be "no, this must never change!" either.

Also, funny how parents affect you. My mother has serious trouble saying "No" to people especially if the ask nicely, especially friends. She hates it was afraid that I'd grow up like that too so she kept telling me since as long as I can remember "If you don't want to just say "No" and nobody can force you." and hell did I take it. I've no trouble saying "No" whatsoever. In fact I think it kind of backfired because she ended up with a hyperactive kid who would just says "No" and she couldn't do anything to change my mind.


















P.S. I think my ISFJ friend's dad is INFP.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> true, but is *there a difference in how extroverted functions and introverted functions are affected*? or at least the former would be more obvious? perhaps it is different with Extroverts, but while my introverted functions may not work well when I'm depressed, my Ne only works in a very basic way (i can sort of recognize possibilities and i can understand abstract ideas, but there is no...energy) and it is observable. that is why I try to engage my Ne when I feel depression starting to set in: if it is activated I can usually avoid an episode, or at least decrease it's severity. And this seems to be what I have observed in others. But then I know more introverts with depression than extroverts (or maybe they just seem like introverts...certainly possible), so it was mostly just an idea I have been entertaining.


Hm, I think my extroverted before obviously killed into the ground.

I'm a bit lazy to rephrase what I typed before especially since I dislike bringing memory of it in me so this:


> I just felt empty, devoid of hope, excitement, passion and desire. Not sad. Just so, so empty. Outside world couldn’t get through, people seemed like alien constructs that had nothing in common with me. When I didn’t know that what I felt was a depression, I thought I was a sociopath and was afraid that people would find out about this, leave me, and then there would be nothing to keep me alive since fearing what my death would do to my friend and family was what kept me from going final. When I started coming out of it after a years and years, the thing that I loved the most were the people, and how I suddenly could connect to them and get warmed up by their attention. I still get it. Even now, when I am (relatively) healthy, I feel cold but in a pleasant “I am a dark cosmos filled with galaxies and stellar bodies” kind of way, and the interactions with people seem like a bright novas warming my core from the outside. I guess this is why I love making people laugh so much even at a great personal expense.


The "cut off from the outside world" I think something that extroverts would _notice_ especially since it's a basic way of existence for them?


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> @laurie17
> 
> Is there anyway to test whether I use Fi first or Ne first? Like, ask me something and see how I respond with it?


My bro, I'm not always sure where I lead with Ne or Ti either. Especially when I write I seem to coherent for Ne... Subjectively. I suspect it doesn't look like that to others. The point is better look at tert Si and inf Te. Don't think that inf Tx function means bad academically or anything. My INFP friend has masters in radio engineering and ENFJ friend is.. I'm not sure how it translates to English but a degree after 6 years of history courses.


----------



## fair phantom

@Greyhart thank you for sharing even though the memory is unpleasant.



> The "cut off from the outside world" I think something that extroverts would notice especially since it's a basic way of existence for them?


Makes sense.


----------



## Max

@Greyhart - It is funny how parents affect you. My Dad, who I am positive is an xSTJ, and my Mom an ESFJ, have had an affect on me.

My Dad reinforces for me to think logically, rationally and do things 'properly', whereas my Mum wants me to use tact.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> My bro, I'm not always sure where I lead with Ne or Ti either. Especially when I write I seem to coherent for Ne... Subjectively. I suspect it doesn't look like that to others. The point is better look at tert Si and inf Te. Don't think that inf Tx function means bad academically or anything. My INFP friend has masters in radio engineering and ENFJ friend is.. I'm not sure how it translates to English but a degree after 6 years of history courses.


Ah, I see. I actually don't find your ramblings incoherent, maybe because my Ne can follow it.

I'm actually quite good at academics, and I'm especially gifted in science. Is this possible in an Fi-dom?

Also- a lot of times I'll look around and I'll see something or hear music or something and I'll be like "Oh, that sounds/look/etc.s like something from my story" (my story being this longterm novel that I've been attempting to write since I was 6 but never got anywhere until now. Does that sound like tert Si?


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> Ah, I see. I actually don't find your ramblings incoherent, maybe because my Ne can follow it.
> 
> I'm actually quite good at academics, and I'm especially gifted in science. Is this possible in an Fi-dom?
> 
> Also- a lot of times I'll look around and I'll see something or hear music or something and I'll be like "Oh, that sounds/look/etc.s like something from my story" (my story being this longterm novel that I've been *attempting to write since I was 6* but never got anywhere until now. Does that sound like tert Si?


SINCE 6?! Wow, long-term commitment it is. :tongue:

As for giften in science as I said my bff is radio engineer. She actually wanted to be a programmer and had parks to back that up but her parents couldn't pay for it because it's the most expensive courses in tech university.


----------



## fair phantom

TelepathicGoose said:


> I'm actually quite good at academics, and I'm especially gifted in science. Is this possible in an Fi-dom?


Yes. I was always at the top or near the top of the class in science(except geology. I couldn't do mineral identification well for some reason). And math for that matter. personality type does not determine aptitude.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> SINCE 6?! Wow, long-term commitment it is. :tongue:
> 
> As for giften in science as I said my bff is radio engineer. She actually wanted to be a programmer and had parks to back that up but her parents couldn't pay for it because it's the most expensive courses in tech university.


I have a shitty attention span yet I can also hold onto the same thing for years. Weird combination.

So, it's possible for me?

So...INFP it is?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> Yes. I was always at the top or near the top of the class in science(except geology. I couldn't do mineral identification well for some reason). And math for that matter. personality type does not determine aptitude.


Alright, I see. ^^'

Ew, mineral identification. Stupid.


----------



## Greyhart

I don't see any of that as disproving Si tert.


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> You're just insane,no offence XD,I could believe anything about you:laughing:
> 
> Agree,but it's weird her Ti seems lower than inferior Ne,and that Ti is so tied to Fe(compare it to @angelcat's purely analytical Ti)
> Idk,in comparison to ISFJs here @Oswin seems ESFJ


Yeah, I know what you mean. If you want to debate it please do. I no longer feel confident assessing my own type.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> I don't see any of that as disproving Si tert.


Is there any other way to ensure that my Te is inferior?


----------



## Dangerose

tine said:


> Thank you very much for all the detail! I was wondering how you cope with conflicts, relationships and such, which require emotional investments.


Very badly...not even joking. Mm, I'm very cautious, because I'm always afraid that people will not likely and I know that I am rather a hellish person when you know me well. Which is mostly just...being really, really needy, jealous, and critical. I guess. I'm not sure actually. I will often suddenly push people away, because I feel like I am burdening them. And then give up and try to 'win them back'. It just looks like attention-seeking. I'm a nightmare, I'm not your nice and pleasing SFJ.

Is that what you mean or do you have something more specific in mind? This question is a little too open-ended for me to know exactly what to say.


----------



## owlet

TelepathicGoose said:


> @_laurie17_
> 
> Is there anyway to test whether I use Fi first or Ne first? Like, ask me something and see how I respond with it?


I don't know if there's any sure way to test it. A lot of it involves trying to look at yourself and how you think as objectively - or at least honestly - as you can. I went through INFJ, INTP and INTJ partly due to issues understanding the system and partly due to misunderstanding my thought process and how it corresponded to the system. It helped to have my sister give me input (she told me she thought I was INFP, not INTJ, and backed it up with evidence in how I react to things, behave and generally seem to think about things, but we're very close).



TelepathicGoose said:


> Ah, I see. I actually don't find your ramblings incoherent, maybe because my Ne can follow it.
> 
> I'm actually quite good at academics, and I'm especially gifted in science. Is this possible in an Fi-dom?
> 
> Also- a lot of times I'll look around and I'll see something or hear music or something and I'll be like "Oh, that sounds/look/etc.s like something from my story" (my story being this longterm novel that I've been attempting to write since I was 6 but never got anywhere until now. Does that sound like tert Si?


Haha, I'm not bad at academics (although I only value them for practical purposes i.e. getting a job that requires a degree - I prefer to learn things in my own time rather than in a classroom, but some classes have been very interesting). I don't enjoy the sort of strange competitive side of university, with everyone looking over each others shoulders to see who got higher grades...

That could be Si, but then if a story takes up a large amount of thinking time, you'd be more likely to relate other things to it. I know when I write, I tend to get a bit obsessed with my current project and thinking about it whenever I get a chance.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Oswin said:


> Very badly...not even joking. Mm, I'm very cautious, because I'm always afraid that people will not likely and I know that I am rather a hellish person when you know me well. Which is mostly just...being really, really needy, jealous, and critical. I guess. I'm not sure actually. I will often suddenly push people away, because I feel like I am burdening them. And then give up and try to 'win them back'. It just looks like attention-seeking. I'm a nightmare, I'm not your nice and pleasing SFJ.
> 
> Is that what you mean or do you have something more specific in mind? This question is a little too open-ended for me to know exactly what to say.


That's very helpful, thank you. You sound a lot like my friend who I think uses Fe dominantly. We dated for a while, but I found it too hard (I love my own space and he felt like I was ignoring him etc) although we got on really well and I enjoyed being around him and still do (we chat a fair amount now and he's a really great guy, it's just he doesnt work well with me). But yeah, from what youve said I'd say you seem like an Fe dom, but you know yourself better than any of us, so do judge for yourself.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

laurie17 said:


> I don't know if there's any sure way to test it. A lot of it involves trying to look at yourself and how you think as objectively - or at least honestly - as you can. I went through INFJ, INTP and INTJ partly due to issues understanding the system and partly due to misunderstanding my thought process and how it corresponded to the system. It helped to have my sister give me input (she told me she thought I was INFP, not INTJ, and backed it up with evidence in how I react to things, behave and generally seem to think about things, but we're very close).
> 
> 
> Haha, I'm not bad at academics (although I only value them for practical purposes i.e. getting a job that requires a degree - I prefer to learn things in my own time rather than in a classroom, but some classes have been very interesting). I don't enjoy the sort of strange competitive side of university, with everyone looking over each others shoulders to see who got higher grades...
> 
> That could be Si, but then if a story takes up a large amount of thinking time, you'd be more likely to relate other things to it. I know when I write, I tend to get a bit obsessed with my current project and thinking about it whenever I get a chance.


Ah, yes, I agree.

Hmm, I see. Well, could you at least attempt to ask me a question and see how I respond? I just...I don't really know anyone in real life who knows about MBTI and it would really be helpful.


----------



## Greyhart

Perfect Ne gif








^Exists purely to generate foam idea farts.

Also, what the fuck is wrong with this show?!








WHAT IS THAT


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Perfect Ne gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^Exists purely to generate foam idea farts.
> 
> Also, what the fuck is wrong with this show?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT IS THAT


Quite funny that you bring up Spongebob. Ain't he an ESFJ?


----------



## Greyhart

About inferior Te. Not sure if related but my INFP friend recently complained that if she had a day planned and the biggest thing that day had falls through she doesn't know how to deal with it and gets angry. Major pevee aparently. For me it's like "Awww,  ... Eh, moving on."


----------



## owlet

TelepathicGoose said:


> Ah, yes, I agree.
> 
> Hmm, I see. Well, could you at least attempt to ask me a question and see how I respond? I just...I don't really know anyone in real life who knows about MBTI and it would really be helpful.


Sure, I'll have a go.

How do you think you would respond when given a group project to work on with two other people, but one of them isn't doing their share of the work? Try to be in-depth about your thought process as well as your behaviour.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> About inferior Te. Not sure if related but my INFP friend recently complained that if she had a day planned and the biggest thing that day had falls through she doesn't know how to deal with it and gets angry. Major pevee aparently. For me it's like "Awww,  ... Eh, moving on."


Oh really?

My problem is like:

My mom will tell me that she'll do xxx at 6pm, and then she doesn't follow through until 6:10pm, and I get mad at her for not doing it exactly at 6pm. 

I get annoyed when things aren't doing exactly when and when people are incompetent, especially in that sense.

Is this inf Te?


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> Oh really?
> 
> My problem is like:
> 
> My mom will tell me that she'll do xxx at 6pm, and then she doesn't follow through until 6:10pm, and I get mad at her for not doing it exactly at 6pm.
> 
> I get annoyed when things aren't doing exactly when and when people are incompetent, especially in that sense.
> 
> Is this inf Te?


IDK. Guys? Is it? My bff complains about the same thing. For me time is relative and space is bendable. "Around noon" could mean anything up to lik 7 pm.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

laurie17 said:


> Sure, I'll have a go.
> 
> How do you think you would respond when given a group project to work on with two other people, but one of them isn't doing their share of the work? Try to be in-depth about your thought process as well as your behaviour.


Oh gosh, this has happened so many times before. Ergh.

Let's see, it'd go something like this:

1.) Anger and frustration due to the fact that the person didn't do their work
2.) Anger and worry that we'll do badly
3.) I may or may not explode at the person, hopefully not. I've been working on my anger management problems.
4.) Then, I'd try to figure out ways we could fix the problem.
5.) I attempt to organize a way to fix the problem, maybe consulting the other person.
6.) I either fix the problem or the project turns to shit. Usually, because of my extreme perseverance to get good grades, the former happens.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Quite funny that you bring up Spongebob. Ain't he an ESFJ?


Oh, gosh. Not sure.








ESFP coul be too? ENFP? Fe seems to fit better.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

greyhart said:


> idk. Guys? Is it? My bff complains about the same thing. For me time is relative and space is bendable. "around noon" could mean anything up to lik 7 pm.


NO!!! It doesn't. Around noon means roughly between 11:55 and 12:05.


----------



## Dangerose

TelepathicGoose said:


> Oh really?
> 
> My problem is like:
> 
> My mom will tell me that she'll do xxx at 6pm, and then she doesn't follow through until 6:10pm, and I get mad at her for not doing it exactly at 6pm.
> 
> I get annoyed when things aren't doing exactly when and when people are incompetent, especially in that sense.
> 
> Is this inf Te?


Why does this annoy you?
I get upset when people don't do things at the time they said because I'll have planned around that and often I'm left waiting. Semi-rational, at least to me.
My INFP friend will occasionally go into com_plete_ly irrational Te mode. It's odd because she's a huge flake, but sometimes she'll become the efficiency police. It does not feel rational at all.


----------



## Max

What type do I seem?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Oswin said:


> Why does this annoy you?
> I get upset when people don't do things at the time they said because I'll have planned around that and often I'm left waiting. Semi-rational, at least to me.
> My INFP friend will occasionally go into com_plete_ly irrational Te mode. It's odd because she's a huge flake, but sometimes she'll become the efficiency police. It does not feel rational at all.


I find it annoying because I'm impatient and I want to get things done because...yeah, I go into irrational Te mode or something.


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> NO!!! It doesn't. Around noon means roughly between 11:55 and 12:05.


Nah.








I'm either too late or I got overexcited and came too early.

Starting to think that ENTPs need "Least organized type there is" title.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> Nah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm either too late or I got overexcited and came too early.
> 
> Starting to think that ENTPs need "Least organized type there is" title.


Nah, you should see my room.


----------



## fair phantom

yeah, one of the signs of inferior functions in general is that it isn't always used, but when it is used there is a tendency to _overdo_. This is why it is so important to actively work on developing it, so that one learns to use it in a measured way.


----------



## Dangerose

tine said:


> That's very helpful, thank you. You sound a lot like my friend who I think uses Fe dominantly. We dated for a while, but I found it too hard (I love my own space and he felt like I was ignoring him etc) although we got on really well and I enjoyed being around him and still do (we chat a fair amount now and he's a really great guy, it's just he doesnt work well with me). But yeah, from what youve said I'd say you seem like an Fe dom, but you know yourself better than any of us, so do judge for yourself.


You might be right. I'd forgotten, but I do all these other really typical Fe-dom things: one of my most embarrassing habits is trying to buy people's affection. I know it looks pathetic but it's like a compulsion. Because I have nothing to offer in this friendship but if I get super expensive and good opera tickets they'll _have_ to stick around because I'm their ticket girl! And in my mind it makes me look cool, and I constantly want to one-up everyone (but I think I restrain myself...if only to look good) *sigh*

And...yeah. I think I rely on other people's opinions and such far to much to be Fe-aux. It's just, like, my Fe is such crap, can't it be as low in the stack as possible?

But I agree, I think ESFJ is more likely. I'll probably change it officially when I feel a little more secure in that.

Thanks for your thoughts)


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> Nah, you should see my room.


Yeah but you think noon means a concrete time


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> What type do I seem?


You seemed like an ESFP at first. Now you do seem ISFJ. Possibly ESFJ.


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> You seemed like an ESFP at first. Now you do seem ISFJ. Possibly ESFJ.


Yes, which is quite ironic. I thought I was an ESFP to start off with when I was first came on here... xD 

When I first started off with MBTI, I thought I was an ENTP, but xSFJ makes a lot more sense.


----------



## owlet

LuchoIsLurking said:


> What type do I seem?


Fe somewhere? xSFJ?



TelepathicGoose said:


> Oh gosh, this has happened so many times before. Ergh.
> 
> Let's see, it'd go something like this:
> 
> 1.) Anger and frustration due to the fact that the person didn't do their work
> 2.) Anger and worry that we'll do badly
> 3.) I may or may not explode at the person, hopefully not. I've been working on my anger management problems.
> 4.) Then, I'd try to figure out ways we could fix the problem.
> 5.) I attempt to organize a way to fix the problem, maybe consulting the other person.
> 6.) I either fix the problem or the project turns to shit. Usually, because of my extreme perseverance to get good grades, the former happens.


This sounds like a shift into inferior Te to me, especially trying to organise and fix the problem. I had the same thing (bar potentially exploding at the person), so this sounds very familiar. Do you find yourself just focusing on the goal of finishing with something 'good', so you end up doing it mostly yourself?


----------



## Max

laurie17 said:


> Fe somewhere? xSFJ?
> 
> 
> This sounds like a shift into inferior Te to me, especially trying to organise and fix the problem. I had the same thing (bar potentially exploding at the person), so this sounds very familiar. Do you find yourself just focusing on the goal of finishing with something 'good', so you end up doing it mostly yourself?


Hmmm... yeah... do I seem more Si dominated or Fe dominated?


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Fe somewhere? xSFJ?
> 
> 
> This sounds like a shift into inferior Te to me, especially trying to organise and fix the problem. I had the same thing (bar potentially exploding at the person), so this sounds very familiar. Do you find yourself just focusing on the goal of finishing with something 'good', so you end up doing it mostly yourself?


Aha, so I was right to think that it was my friend's low Te being unruly. :tongue:


----------



## owlet

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Hmmm... yeah... do I seem more Si dominated or Fe dominated?


I... am not sure. Could you try answering the question I gave TelepathicGoose?


Greyhart said:


> Aha, so I was right to think that it was my friend's low Te being unruly. :tongue:


Yeah, although I never notice I'm using it until it's too late and I'm already organising everything and feeling more and more frustrated by things 'not going according to plan' because of human error (my own error being the worst thing for me). My sister kindly pointed this out to me too :tongue:


----------



## Darkbloom

TelepathicGoose said:


> Oh really?
> 
> My problem is like:
> 
> My mom will tell me that she'll do xxx at 6pm, and then she doesn't follow through until 6:10pm, and I get mad at her for not doing it exactly at 6pm.
> 
> I get annoyed when things aren't doing exactly when and when people are incompetent, especially in that sense.
> 
> Is this inf Te?


It's very my mother,so I'd say it's possible
She could be ENFP though XD


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

laurie17 said:


> This sounds like a shift into inferior Te to me, especially trying to organise and fix the problem. I had the same thing (bar potentially exploding at the person), so this sounds very familiar. *Do you find yourself just focusing on the goal of finishing with something 'good', so you end up doing it mostly yourself?*


Yes, this happens quite often at school. I have to do all the work because the other kids are rather lazy and want to take their time, and all I want to do is get it over with already.


----------



## owlet

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yes, this happens quite often at school. I have to do all the work because the other kids are rather lazy and want to take their time, and all I want to do is get it over with already.


Probably inferior Te then, I think. Unless anyone else has other ideas?


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Hmmm... yeah... do I seem more Si dominated or Fe dominated?


Purely but impression? Online seem like high Fe but don't seem like Ti is inferior. Introverts online seem to come off more extroverted.


----------



## Max

laurie17 said:


> How do you think you would respond when given a group project to work on with two other people, but one of them isn't doing their share of the work? Try to be in-depth about your thought process as well as your behaviour.


Hm... good question. Obviously, I'd be a bit disheartened and annoyed with them for not chipping in and doing their bit. I would ask them what was wrong. 

And I would listen to why they aren't doing job x. Then I would try my best to boost their morale, encourage them, compliment them and talk them into doing it for the team, and what we are going to achieve from it. I would try to be as patient as I could with them. 

If they still weren't co-operating, then I would resort to some form of bribery, and see it through. I wouldn't rearrange their jobs, because the other person is doing their part, and it's working well.

If it worked, I would store the memory of that as an effective co-operation method and link ot to that situation, if not, I would store it as a fail, and try my best to learn from that situation, and not make that mistake again.

That's all I can think of how I would act in that situation xD


----------



## Immolate

There's someone lurking called WarMoose. That's amazing.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Can you explain why?


I've discussed this already with @angelcat. While I enjoyed her book on symbolism, it wasn't my style. She would say (it's been a while so please excuse me for incorrectly paraphrasing) that Frodo was a Christ figure on chapter, then say he was a representation of our sin in another chapter. I get confused... I want if fluid. That's how I spoke about _The Great Gatsby_ with my cousin. Daisy _is_ money. She is green to Gatsby, she is bright to Nick, and she is white on the outside, but beyond her flower she is _gold_ through and through. Establishing this, I'm going to see her as gold internally until I realize a more true truth. The novel is about Gatsby losing his love and his hope, but it's also about the ordinary's obsession with wealth that falls short because it is unattainable, contrary to the 20s regard for money that Fitzgerald was criticizing. While of course I'm saying basic things and I think many who have studied TGG would agree with me, the way that I am sticking to the one interpretation I see as true is different at least from what I read in Charity's work.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> There's someone lurking called WarMoose. That's amazing.


Remember back when you wanted me to be called TelepathicMoose? 

I still like TelepathicGoose better.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Probably ... obsessed with the conceptual essence of things, as opposed to its details. Super intense, analyzing the hell out of whatever futuristic ambition or ideal Ni possesses, but not making much progress in terms of actualization.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry. I do give off those vibes. There's a reason my sweet, sensitive little BFF calls me "Sherlock." She says, "I don't care if you're NOT the same type -- you act just like him. Intense. Erratic. Analytical. Detached."
> 
> I don't know how I landed in the ISFJ group. I'm really nothing like most of them.


I used to be a bit startled by you and your sharp information (to be honest). I could easily see you as ENTP. Now that I actually know you, I certainly see where ISFJ comes from. You may be analytical and know a lot, but I think at your core you very much are the friend, the giver (sure that's the ENFJ term but goodness knows it fits ISFJs as well), the heart. You're smart, and I think that is one of your bold outlying qualities, but beyond that you will always first be... I'm trying to think of the words to describe it - kind, gentle, soft - but really ISFJ sums it up best given the terminology we know.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

This was posted on the Game of Thrones thread. Not sure how many of you watch GOT, but my gosh this is amazing 






Also, if you _don't_ watch Game of Thrones and don't mind the type of stuff that would give it an R rating as a movie... It's wonderful. You should watch it, if only to appreciate this ten minute video.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I thought we were comparing ISFJ to INFJ.
> 
> I haven't actually read the ENFJ description yet. Or I have but I don't remember it.


You read ENFJ vs ISFJ... I'll message you INFJ vs ENFJ and send you my thoughts on your Ne ^^


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> This was posted on the Game of Thrones thread. Not sure how many of you watch GOT, but my gosh this is amazing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you _don't_ watch Game of Thrones and don't mind the type of stuff that would give it an R rating as a movie... It's wonderful. You should watch it, if only to appreciate this ten minute video.


I love this cast so so much. :th_love:


----------



## Psychopomp

alittlebear said:


> I try
> 
> Yesterday I honestly felt so ridiculously Ni. I told Curi that "I had to be NFJ." I was working on my cousin's essay on _The Great Gatsby_, and I don't even like _The Great Gatsby_, when I first read it I decided it was about hopelessness and why hope is meaningless and I rejected it entirely, but I broke it down into one symbol for my cousin and doing that, I realized what a gorgeous text that a well written and insightful. I was gabbing about it to him and trying to explain tha symbolism and the argument I wanted him to make and I thought to myself, "This is so Ni." I wasn't even attached to what I was saying - I didn't care about what the text meant to me, I was enchanted by what Fitzgerald meant and what his themes mean universally - but I loved to do it anyway. My whole life is honestly symbolism and metaphors. It comes out especially when I can focus it in on literature, but... Really that convinced me that I am Ni. I was not being coherent. I had to slow down and try to explain things more basically to my cousin. I think an SFJ of course can find symbolism and meaning in a book like that - of course, Charity's done it - but I don't think they would in the way I did.
> 
> And then, after we put the book away, I discussed with my aunt and felt very much like an Fe-dominant. I focus entirely on a person when I speak, and go out of my way to make them comfortable even subconsciously, which is something I don't see as much in the IxFJs I know. (Including the aunt I was talking to.)
> 
> But... Again, I don't know. I could be mistaken.


I still think this is SFJ. 

For example, -I- do this. My ESFJ sister does this. Our conversation about The Great Gatsby would be all about what it MEANT and the themes in it. We are using crappy examples of people in the environment and creating a false dichotomy. I can't be them so I must be the other thing... yet we cannot and do not properly define the other thing. 

Your grasping and engaging into The Great Gatsby sounds more like Ne to me. That is, perceiving into it. Ni, on the other hand, deals in internal images that may be triggered by external stimulus but that do not in any sense remain attached to that object. Also, it is easy, as has been said, to misinterpret sense-impressions (given intuitive life with Ne) as Ni images. Also, your approach was so objective and extraverted. You wanna see Ni?
















I cite Seinfeld because he is not an Ni-dom but you still get heads blowing up and hacking people to death... weird subjective images from nowhere, talking about a kid eating treats before getting on a schoolbus. He is not an example at all of Ni-dom, but I -THINK- he is an Fe/Ni/Se/Ti - the connecting one part of the joke with the next is what MBTI would see as Ni, btw. It isn't. It is Ti. I wanted to show a more palatable and moderate example of what Ni MIGHT be in a less dominant position.... take it with a grain of salt. 

There are other things, of course... you can fire up some Kate Bush or Tori Amos - many people think that Trent Reznor is an Ni-dom and he probably is. MLK comes across quite Ni in his speeches. Heavily laden with intuitive images (Great Captivity, Island of Poverty, Table of Brotherhood, etc)

I have two really good Ni-dom friends. One is a photographer and the other is a composer. Neither would have any more to say about The Great Gatsby as, say, me or my sister. 

Jung describes Ni:

1) Incomprehensible
2) Internal Images
3) Wise men/women 'gone wrong'
4) Subjects for psychological novels
5) Cranks and Mystics
6) No bearing on objective reality
7) The voice of one crying in the wilderness

Is that you?


----------



## orbit

arkigos said:


> I still think this is SFJ.
> 
> For example, -I- do this. My ESFJ sister does this. Our conversation about The Great Gatsby would be all about what it MEANT and the themes in it. We are using crappy examples of people in the environment and creating a false dichotomy. I can't be them so I must be the other thing... yet we cannot and do not properly define the other thing.
> 
> Your grasping and engaging into The Great Gatsby sounds more like Ne to me. That is, perceiving into it. Ni, on the other hand, deals in internal images that may be triggered by external stimulus but that do not in any sense remain attached to that object. Also, it is easy, as has been said, to misinterpret sense-impressions (given intuitive life with Ne) as Ni images. Also, your approach was so objective and extraverted. You wanna see Ni?
> 
> *Don't some functions end up with the same result? If it's easy to misinterpret impressions as Ne instead of Ni, then you could say the same thing the other way around.
> Couldn't her Se be perceiving into it? You're kind of making it sound like Ni users don't have any other functions to perceive and kind of just make random imagery to sprout out of, sorry, that constantly fleets around. I'm not understanding you. I'm sorry. You said that it doesn't remain attach but I thought Ni's goal was to build a system of truth, and if it lets go of everything then… That kind of defeats the purpose?
> It's rather confusing to me. Could you please elaborate more?
> 
> What made you think she was being extroverted and objective? Of course she was being expressive of it, she was trying to help her cousin. MLK and Yoko Ono are extroverted with their symbols? What do you mean by objective? You said I was very objective and that I used Te. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cite Seinfeld because he is not an Ni-dom but you still get heads blowing up and hacking people to death... weird subjective images from nowhere, talking about a kid eating treats before getting on a schoolbus. He is not an example at all of Ni-dom, but I -THINK- he is an Fe/Ni/Se/Ti - the connecting one part of the joke with the next is what MBTI would see as Ni, btw. It isn't. It is Ti. I wanted to show a more palatable and moderate example of what Ni MIGHT be in a less dominant position.... take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> There are other things, of course... you can fire up some Kate Bush or Tori Amos - many people think that Trent Reznor is an Ni-dom and he probably is. MLK comes across quite Ni in his speeches. Heavily laden with intuitive images (Great Captivity, Island of Poverty, Table of Brotherhood, etc)
> 
> *Those intuitive images were triggered by what was going on the outside of world. And he sounds quite attached to those objects if he's writing them in written speeches. So that contradicts what you said earlier to me, but feel free to prove me wrong ^^*
> 
> I have two really good Ni-dom friends. One is a photographer and the other is a composer. Neither would have any more to say about The Great Gatsby as, say, me or my sister.
> 
> Jung describes Ni:
> 
> 1) Incomprehensible
> 2) Internal Images. *You said that could be Ne too.*
> 3) Wise men/women 'gone wrong' *MLK isn't 'gone wrong.'*
> 4) Subjects for psychological novels
> 6) No bearing on objective reality *They have other functions?*
> 7) The voice of one crying in the wilderness
> 
> Is that you?


I'm sorry but I find that kind of inconsistent and I'd love if you explained yourself further.

I noticed Ne users don't understand her souls description which sounds quite mystical and her weird imagery about Shakespeare. And weird wispy colors from song lyrics.

And she seems too fixated on the future to be Ne?


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> https://vine.co/v/O6hqn3HI77I


omg


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> xD
> 
> My favorite is Foil, although Amish Paradise is A+ too. Word Crimes describes my frusturation with my peers in English class...
> 
> I actually love ENTPs, and I'm an an INFP. Although, Ti (and the Ti/Fe axis in general) can confuse the living flabbergasts out of me at times. Not as much as Se confuses/angers me, though.


Yeah. And Whatever You Like. Haha. Any Weird Al song cracks me up. 

You know what? I am actually a good actor. I do act a certain way around certain people. In debates, I am a psuedo-intellectual, at dinner parties, I am the clown, with my friends, I am crazy, with volunteer groups, I am helpful/kind. Around 'tough people', I like to act tough etc. 

I am good at mimicing singers when I sing. I am good at mimicing people xD.
@TelepathicGoose - Telly, you missed my comment


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> xD
> 
> My favorite is Foil, although Amish Paradise is A+ too. Word Crimes describes my frustration with my peers in English class...
> 
> I actually love ENTPs, and I'm an INFP. Although, Ti (and the Ti/Fe axis in general) can confuse the living flabbergasts out of me at times. Not as much as Se confuses/angers me, though.


I'm sorry for angering you

I'm Ti and Se dominant. XP


----------



## orbit

Raise your hand if you don't think alittlebear has Ni! 

Sorry this bothers me a lot. This is so inconsistent and I want consistency.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I'm sorry for angering you
> 
> I'm Ti and Se dominant. XP


Ahaha, you'd never anger me! It's just confusing for me to understand your brain


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Raise your hand if you don't think alittlebear has Ni!
> 
> Sorry this bothers me a lot. This is so inconsistent and I want consistency.


(I think that alittlebear _has_ Ni)


----------



## Greyhart

Blue Flare said:


> BTW, songs like this one can be a good example of Ni
> 
> The lyrics are in the video description, and that's useful as the growling may not let hear them clearly.


*presses play 4 am forgot to lower the volume* all of my neighbors are retirees. This can go both ways they either didn't hear because of hearing problems or there might be paramedics in the morning.



Curiphant said:


> How do INFJs and INTJs act on the internet?


Write weird stuff that makes ENTPs/ENFPs cry about their non-existent perfect Ni dom soul mates.










TelepathicGoose said:


> @Greyhart,
> 
> Oh god...the Weird Al avatar. He's an ENTP, right?


He is.



shinynotshiny said:


> Well, you're not wrong. It's a lot of sex and drugs


Lyrics doesn't mater. It's all in the beat. Lizard brain hears the beat and goes into mating mood.



angelcat said:


> Not really a coincidence. All the Lecter novels are very ... Ni-dom. Hannibal is a Ni-dom, Will is a Ni-dom, Clarice is a Ni-dom. That they've chosen to interpret the surreal impressionism for the television show isn't that surprising, just ... interesting to non-Ni-doms. Heh.


Since I've never read the books, is TV show closer to books then? Not in terms of content but "Ni spirit"?

@LuchoIsLurking @TelepathicGoose I have favorite people of all types.  It's not exclusive.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Ahaha, you'd never anger me! It's just confusing for me to understand your brain


What's so confusing about me? Hm…


----------



## Max

@Greyhart - Same. I like everyone on here. You're honestly all brilliant people in your own ways.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> What's so confusing about me? Hm…


Besides that fact that we share no cognitive functions and so I don't understand your brain at all?

Nothing, you're really awesome and sweet :kitteh:


----------



## Greyhart

I've brought up Tool in music thread. IIRC @hoopla said they are good example of Ni Ti Fe in some order?


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Besides that fact that we share no cognitive functions and so I don't understand your brain at all?
> 
> Nothing, you're really awesome and sweet :kitteh:


I went into a squealing fit. I'm now your fangirl.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah. And Whatever You Like. Haha. Any Weird Al song cracks me up.
> 
> You know what? I am actually a good actor. I do act a certain way around certain people. In debates, I am a psuedo-intellectual, at dinner parties, I am the clown, with my friends, I am crazy, with volunteer groups, I am helpful/kind. Around 'tough people', I like to act tough etc.
> 
> I am good at mimicing singers when I sing. I am good at mimicing people xD.
> @TelepathicGoose - Telly, you missed my comment


Good at mimicking people in general is Fe. 

Which comment?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I went into a squealing fit. I'm now your fangirl.


I have a fangirl??

_The Telepathic Goose has now experienced a revelation._


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I've brought up Tool in music thread. IIRC @_hoopla_ said they are good example of Ni Ti Fe in some order?


Haven't heard them in years, look up in youtube, first video I pick doesn't disappoint:


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> I have a fangirl??
> 
> _The Telepathic Goose has now experienced a revelation._


But not creepily ><


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> But not creepily ><


I know, don't worry ^^


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Good at mimicking people in general is Fe.
> 
> Which comment?


Yeah. I guess so. Last week, I was in the shop, and an Akon song came on. I started mimicing Akon and the other guy for no reason xD. It was fun. 

This comment


----------



## Immolate

I've always enjoyed this one:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I've always enjoyed this one:


That is a lovely song, I love Radiohead.

Is it just me or does that song seem Ni? Or, really compulsive Si.


----------



## fair phantom

(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

(doesn't want to interrupt the thread but is twinkling with excitement)

(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Do you think an asshole xSFJ would me a massive manipulator, and pull people down for their past mistakes and get to know others weaknesses, instead of strengths?





TelepathicGoose said:


> Yep.
> 
> (That sounds like my ESFJ "friend", who loves manipulating everyone in her friend group.  )











That's no friend.

@shinynotshiny Is R.E.M. Ni too from your point of view?




That's one of songs I consider "mine".


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> That's no friend.
> 
> @shinynotshiny Is R.E.M. Ni too from your point of view?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's one of songs I consider "mine".


I know, hence the quotation marks around friend ;D 

I have experienced some form of Ni before, but it's nothing like the "real thing". I used to think I had Ni as one of my top four functions, but in reality, I don't really understand it. And to some degree, I don't even think a lot of Ni-Dom/Auxs understand it perfectly too, but they match descriptions of what Introverted Intuition is, based on others ideas/perceptions of the function. They read it and resonate with it instantly.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ Is R.E.M. Ni too from your point of view?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's one of songs I consider "mine".


Oh don't ask me, I don't want controversy over Ni and how my soul is too shallow~

Bending spoons, elephant up the stairs, falling piano, wings on your feet, sounds like your brand of Ne


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


>


You soulless person. Your gifs always make me laugh.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧
> 
> (doesn't want to interrupt the thread but is twinkling with excitement)
> 
> (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧


Why are you twinkling with excitement?


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Why are you twinkling with excitement?


My boyfriend proposed tonight. I'm feeling a bit like


























(in other words I'm probably in such a good mood that it is annoying)


----------



## Tad Cooper

Oswin said:


> You might be right. I'd forgotten, but I do all these other really typical Fe-dom things: one of my most embarrassing habits is trying to buy people's affection. I know it looks pathetic but it's like a compulsion. Because I have nothing to offer in this friendship but if I get super expensive and good opera tickets they'll _have_ to stick around because I'm their ticket girl! And in my mind it makes me look cool, and I constantly want to one-up everyone (but I think I restrain myself...if only to look good) *sigh*
> 
> And...yeah. I think I rely on other people's opinions and such far to much to be Fe-aux. It's just, like, my Fe is such crap, can't it be as low in the stack as possible?
> 
> But I agree, I think ESFJ is more likely. I'll probably change it officially when I feel a little more secure in that.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts)


I think its more due to the type of people youre hanging around? They should refuse to let you pay for that stuff etc. Buying approval doesnt actually sound Fe dom to me, it sounds like more immature Fe. Have you looked at Ne or Se dom or even Ti? Are you good at working out what people want from you?


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## Tad Cooper

fair phantom said:


> My boyfriend proposed tonight. I'm feeling a bit like
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Congratulations! Always good when something nice happens!


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## Darkbloom

fair phantom said:


> My boyfriend proposed tonight. I'm feeling a bit like
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CONGRATULATIONS!!!

So glad that you shared it with us here, feel free to be in annoyingly good mood!


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## Darkbloom

@tine,my grandma is 100% Fe dom and she buys love all the time,trust me,I know haha
Edit: I think it's a huge Fe thing,I always see it in FJs,buying little gifts to their friends and things like that,ofc part of it is just kindness but part of it is Fe doms often having 2 in their enneagram tritype 
I actually doubted my Fe-ness because I rarely do things like that,I'm poor XD

edit: mentioning @Oswin because this thread is crazy lol


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## owlet

fair phantom said:


> My boyfriend proposed tonight. I'm feeling a bit like
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Congratulations! :happy: That's really nice!


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## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> My boyfriend proposed tonight. I'm feeling a bit like
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Congratulations!))) 
I wish you happiness))


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## Dangerose

tine said:


> I think its more due to the type of people youre hanging around? They should refuse to let you pay for that stuff etc. Buying approval doesnt actually sound Fe dom to me, it sounds like more immature Fe. Have you looked at Ne or Se dom or even Ti? Are you good at working out what people want from you?


I have looked at these, and I've also wondered about Fi. I'm not sure if it fits? I know, my Fe feels really...immature. Which is weird if it's dominant, I think, but I think I concern myself more with Fe than other functions. I don't think I'm an NTP (but I'm willing to hear NTP arguments) So auxiliary seems best? 
I think if I wasn't good at working out what people want from me, I wouldn't know about it? I don't think I'm particularly good at this but I don't think I'm terrible. I usually know what's going on in a social situation?


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## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> @tine,my grandma is 100% Fe dom and she buys love all the time,trust me,I know haha
> Edit: I think it's a huge Fe thing,I always see it in FJs,buying little gifts to their friends and things like that,ofc part of it is just kindness but part of it is Fe doms often having 2 in their enneagram tritype
> I actually doubted my Fe-ness because I rarely do things like that,I'm poor XD
> 
> edit: mentioning @Oswin because this thread is crazy lol


Do you think it's a 2 thing, or a Fe thing? (Since I'm trying to figure out both of these).
I think I'm probably either core 1 or core 6. I'm leaning towards 1w2 6w7 2w1 and maybe sx/so or sp/so. 

Sorry for the slight derail.


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## Pressed Flowers

arkigos said:


> I still think this is SFJ.
> 
> For example, -I- do this. My ESFJ sister does this. Our conversation about The Great Gatsby would be all about what it MEANT and the themes in it. We are using crappy examples of people in the environment and creating a false dichotomy. I can't be them so I must be the other thing... yet we cannot and do not properly define the other thing.
> 
> Your grasping and engaging into The Great Gatsby sounds more like Ne to me. That is, perceiving into it. Ni, on the other hand, deals in internal images that may be triggered by external stimulus but that do not in any sense remain attached to that object. Also, it is easy, as has been said, to misinterpret sense-impressions (given intuitive life with Ne) as Ni images. Also, your approach was so objective and extraverted. You wanna see Ni?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> I cite Seinfeld because he is not an Ni-dom but you still get heads blowing up and hacking people to death... weird subjective images from nowhere, talking about a kid eating treats before getting on a schoolbus. He is not an example at all of Ni-dom, but I -THINK- he is an Fe/Ni/Se/Ti - the connecting one part of the joke with the next is what MBTI would see as Ni, btw. It isn't. It is Ti. I wanted to show a more palatable and moderate example of what Ni MIGHT be in a less dominant position.... take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> There are other things, of course... you can fire up some Kate Bush or Tori Amos - many people think that Trent Reznor is an Ni-dom and he probably is. MLK comes across quite Ni in his speeches. Heavily laden with intuitive images (Great Captivity, Island of Poverty, Table of Brotherhood, etc)
> 
> I have two really good Ni-dom friends. One is a photographer and the other is a composer. Neither would have any more to say about The Great Gatsby as, say, me or my sister.
> 
> Jung describes Ni:
> 
> 1) Incomprehensible
> 2) Internal Images
> 3) Wise men/women 'gone wrong'
> 4) Subjects for psychological novels
> 5) Cranks and Mystics
> 6) No bearing on objective reality
> 7) The voice of one crying in the wilderness
> 
> Is that you?


Thank you for your response. I'm still a but confused though, to be honest. While perhaps my discussion of _The Great Gatsby_ was Ne, as you interpret my talking about it, I wonder if it outweighs the other information I have given on this thread that others have at times unanimously agreed to be "Ni". 

I can't speak for myself and say that I fit Jung's description of Ni. It seems that no one sees those qualities in me. @Curiphant and I have talked, and she sees me as some of those things. She sees several of my connections incomprehensible. I actually have fun into my being "incomprehensible" quite a bit. When I was at the art muesem with my ISFJ friend, I saw what was in the painting but could only describe it with a single word. When I tried to explain it, I just confused both my friend and sister. That same friend has given up trying to understand me. While I think my path to my future is coherent, and as my best friend I have tried to explain of to her several times, she's told me that she's just "given up trying to understand it". I also will say things like "I'm wearing an Easter egg" or similar phrases where I give a direct object to another object, and this she says "Only you could say that." She does not understand these connections, although she has grown to tolerate them. 

I also wonder about the description of my mind that I posted a few pages ago. I will try to quote it. I'm especially curious about that not to be stubborn but because five people responded that it seemed "Ni" and @angelcat said she could not relate to it. It could be that I have figured out my mind process and everyone does that, and I can see how what I did could be Si/Ti, but I am still interested in how you would justify it. 

I also wonder about my soul habit. I don't even see people as physical persons... and honestly, I never have. I experience their souls, which to me are indescribable. I see them - metaphorically - but when I try to describe the the on,y words I can use are _literally_ the flashes of indescribable internal images you associate with Ni. I have trouble justifying this with Si. Not because Si cannot see past the physical body, but because my experience of souls is so closely resemblant of Ni as you have defined it and you have yet to counter this point towards Si. 

I also wanted to add that when I told my friend about my Shakespeare experiences of the plays, she was a bit creeped out. I tried to explain, but she just shook her head, not understanding. I can articulate myself well here - and as someone with strong Fe, I have certainly learned how to be coherent, especially when I can type out my words - but in real life and in the time that Curi has known me, I have not always been so easily spoken with. 

I promise, I am not trying to be stubborn. For the past few days I have been pondering ISFJ, and I can very much accept it... except for a few lingering questions that don't fit, such as these mentioned here. And, to be completely honest about my understanding of these things, I'm not going to be able to see myself as ISFJ until these aspects of me are patted into Si/Ne. I'm looking for answers in other places for these questions, and I *do* still intend to read Jung before I know for certain, but clarification on how you see these things as Si would be of great help to me.


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## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom 
Congratulations!
That's incredibly wonderful. You deserve to feel that way. I hope you feel that way for a while.  Please preserve your lovely feeling for a while.

I will also say again that I probably will not be on much today. Once again, please notify me directly if you have something regarding my type to say so it does not get lost in the chat. Thank you again for all of your help (I'm trying to get around to thanking the posts from last night but I am a bit busy atm)


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## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> Do you think it's a 2 thing, or a Fe thing? (Since I'm trying to figure out both of these).
> I think I'm probably either core 1 or core 6. I'm leaning towards 1w2 6w7 2w1 and maybe sx/so or sp/so.
> 
> Sorry for the slight derail.


I think it's a combination of both,it's simply having Fe and being 2-fixed because 2 makes you wanna be loved and Fe/Ti in a way works on achieving that goal,things like 6 could influence it too though
Sp/so?You really think you're sx last?
I recently read (again) that your first instinct is what you are most concerned with,second one is the most comfortable one,third one is what you tend to neglect.I'm not sure what I think about that though when it comes to my type


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## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> I have looked at these, and I've also wondered about Fi. I'm not sure if it fits? I know, my Fe feels really...immature. Which is weird if it's dominant, I think, but I think I concern myself more with Fe than other functions. I don't think I'm an NTP (but I'm willing to hear NTP arguments) So auxiliary seems best?
> I think if I wasn't good at working out what people want from me, I wouldn't know about it? I don't think I'm particularly good at this but I don't think I'm terrible. I usually know what's going on in a social situation?


I think immature Fe, as in INTP's Fe is very different.
People exaggerate that inferior function thing,yeah,there's inferior function that comes out more when you're stressed and it shows in a negative way but that doesn't mean INTP goes to ESFJ or that ESFJ goes to INTP,really.I think it's actually more like loop thing with a bit of inferior,like,INTP goes ISFJ-ish(still imo obvious they are not really ISFJ) and ESFJ goes ENTP(argumentative for the sake of it,testing people,thinking they are the only normal,logical person)


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## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I also wonder about the description of my mind that I posted a few pages ago. I will try to quote it. I'm especially curious about that not to be stubborn but because five people responded that it seemed "Ni" and @angelcat said she could not relate to it. It could be that I have figured out my mind process and everyone does that, and I can see how what I did could be Si/Ti, but I am still interested in how you would justify it.
> 
> I also wonder about my soul habit. I don't even see people as physical persons... and honestly, I never have. I experience their souls, which to me are indescribable. I see them - metaphorically - but when I try to describe the the on,y words I can use are _literally_ the flashes of indescribable internal images you associate with Ni. I have trouble justifying this with Si. Not because Si cannot see past the physical body, but because my experience of souls is so closely resemblant of Ni as you have defined it and you have yet to counter this point towards Si.


I am not the be all, and end of all, when it comes to Si, but honestly, what you described seemed overly ... interpretive to me. I'm not saying you made it up, merely saying that I don't see things that way, at all. I don't resonate with any of the Si descriptions on this thread, though, so that's not surprising. (Even @Oswin's ... I was like, "Eh, do I do that? Is that what I see when I try and describe my Si? Nah, don't think so.") I couldn't describe how my mind works if you paid me. It's just ... unconscious, and there, and sensory recognition. I have to focus on and think about an object to start abstracting it. Most things, I don't bother with.


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## Max

tine said:


> Could you say how youd deal with a big work/school project? How youd deal with group work and working alone? Mental processes when outside (also what the areas like)?


Working alone, I am absolutely terrible at it. I have zero motivation, get lost easily and have no-one there to help me/give me ideas and show me what I am meant to be doing. Even though I try to tell myself what I am to be doing, it always ends up a mess. 

If I have to work on a project alone, I start reflecting through everything up to the present moment. I remember what I said I was going to do, how I was going to do it and where I was intending to research. 

In group work, I like to compare my answers to other people's. I also like people bouncing ideas/solutions/their findings off mine. I feel at ease in a group. The more people happily helping others, and working on the same project, the better.

What are my mental processes to the outside world? Very extroverted, people orientated, blending into the environment, saying things related to the subject, friendly. Focused on others, sometimes ideas, and then when I am home, I take all those outside ideas/opinions and form my own personal memories/comparisons/reminders in my mind. And I also sometimes use my own logic, which also seems to go hand in hand with people based systems, dilemmas, ideas and motives.

Um... I think that is all? 



Living dead said:


> Exxx,you attention whore


Really?  Maybe online, I use my extroverted functions a lot. Well, I use them to interact with the outer world too. And I do tend to talk a lot. Sometimes, I need an off switch. Or a self destruct button xD


@angelcat - Yes! Ne-related stress/anxiety usage. 'What if?'

Relative has an operation: 'What if x dies?'

School calls home:
'Is my little brother in trouble? What has he done?!"

Has a sore eye:
'What if I have an eye disease?'

This is where my Ti comes in handy (as my 'common sense' function). To debunk the negative possibilities and thought processes, and turn them into logical probabilities. At least, for me anyway. 

Most of the time, I can handle my Extroverted functions/Tertiary and Inferior well, but under stress everything is screwed up.


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## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Working alone, I am absolutely terrible at it. I have zero motivation, get lost easily and have no-one there to help me/give me ideas and show me what I am meant to be doing. Even though I try to tell myself what I am to be doing, it always ends up a mess.
> 
> If I have to work on a project alone, I start reflecting through everything up to the present moment. I remember what I said I was going to do, how I was going to do it and where I was intending to research.
> 
> In group work, I like to compare my answers to other people's. I also like people bouncing ideas/solutions/their findings off mine. I feel at ease in a group. The more people happily helping others, and working on the same project, the better.
> 
> What are my mental processes to the outside world? Very extroverted, people orientated, blending into the environment, saying things related to the subject, friendly. Focused on others, sometimes ideas, and then when I am home, I take all those outside ideas/opinions and form my own personal memories/comparisons/reminders in my mind. And I also sometimes use my own logic, which also seems to go hand in hand with people based systems, dilemmas, ideas and motives.
> 
> Um... I think that is all?
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Maybe online, I use my extroverted functions a lot. Well, I use them to interact with the outer world too. And I do tend to talk a lot. Sometimes, I need an off switch. Or a self destruct button xD
> 
> 
> @angelcat - Yes! Ne-related stress/anxiety usage. 'What if?'
> 
> Relative has an operation: 'What if x dies?'
> 
> School calls home:
> 'Is my little brother in trouble? What has he done?!"
> 
> Has a sore eye:
> 'What if I have an eye disease?'
> 
> This is where my Ti comes in handy. To debunk the negative possibilities and thought processes, and turn them into logical probabilities. At least, for me anyway.
> 
> Most of the time, I can handle my Extroverted functions/Tertiary and Inferior well, but under stress everything is screwed up.


I am severely anxious, but I do not experience this described anxiety at all. If my family member has an operation, of course they're going to be okay. If someone calls, it's probably my mom of a telemarketer. And I say this as someone who has had too many experiences of family members dying and terrifying phone calls. My mind doesn't immediately go to bad possibilities like that because it doesn't make sense... I find that significant because obviously I am an anxious person, but I'm not anxious about that. 

Even this conversation... I hate to say this, but that's why I was anxious. I was thinking "will my having inferior intuition and being an Si-dominant interfere with my writing my story? How can I use this in my favor to get there?" That's what really gets to me... Anything interfering with what I know I must do to get to my future, even if others don't see why I must do what I may do to get to my future or why that future is so inexplicably important to me. Take away my fear for the future, but what I truly need is to write my story and share that vision of humanity and love that I have with the world.


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## Pressed Flowers

Also like? Again I apologize for being so stressed about this... I am still being honest. I read what you said @angelcat about the difference with Ni and Ne anxiety and was jolted back in how I am actually ridiculously Ni in my need to make my fixation on that goal, and my anxiety is completely wrapped around my fixation on that goal and the problems that come along with that fixation. 

I'm sorry though, gosh I know it seems I'm being stubborn again but I want to be as clear as possible about this... because I do think it's very important and not something we have discussed or considered before.


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## 68097

@alittlebear, if you think you're Ni, why not just be an ENFJ? Go hang out with the other ENFJs on their forum, and see how you stack in comparative discussions. If you understand them all? Excellent! If not, and you get stuck asking, "what are they even talking about?" consider SFJ. The only way you can tell is to BE AROUND SOME and see if you speak Ni.

You can argue semantics and details and what ifs until judgment day (ha, ha, cute) but what we see in you and what you think about yourself doesn't matter squat in reality. Reality is where your cognition shows. So get out of this thread, cease your subscription to it, whatever, and go LIVE for awhile.

Hear you, on the book thing. I'm sitting on a book at the moment, anxious about it, because it's not RIGHT yet. It's not PERFECT yet. Something is amiss with it, and hell if I know what it is, but until it feels right, I'm not releasing it. It's been three months. Other people say it's great. But it feels fragmented and convoluted and not whole, and I don't know how to fix it, so I'm procrastinating about it.

*sulks*

Also, this whole BUT YOU'RE NOT UNDERSTANDING ME... I NEED YOU TO AGREE WITH ME AND VALIDATE MY ASSESSMENT OF MY OWN TYPE is so ... ridiculously Fe, I can't even...

And it's not just you. It's half the participants on this thread. I THINK I'M THIS. DO YOU THINK I'M THIS?

Talk about a Fe-fest.


----------



## Greyhart

Did we consider that just like @angelcat is a "weird" Si>Ne @alittlebear is a "weird" Ni>Se in a way that she doesn't express her vision through screaming into the microphone?


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> I am severely anxious, but I do not experience this described anxiety at all. If my family member has an operation, of course they're going to be okay. If someone calls, it's probably my mom of a telemarketer. And I say this as someone who has had too many experiences of family members dying and terrifying phone calls. My mind doesn't immediately go to bad possibilities like that because it doesn't make sense... I find that significant because obviously I am an anxious person, but I'm not anxious about that.
> 
> Even this conversation... I hate to say this, but that's why I was anxious. I was thinking "will my having inferior intuition and being an Si-dominant interfere with my writing my story? How can I use this in my favor to get there?" That's what really gets to me... Anything interfering with what I know I must do to get to my future, even if others don't see why I must do what I may do to get to my future or why that future is so inexplicably important to me. Take away my fear for the future, but what I truly need is to write my story and share that vision of humanity and love that I have with the world.


Hm.. really? I guess this is my fear of unknown, and the fact that I'm not used to these kind of things happening to me, atm. When I hear that something bad happens to one of my loved ones/someone I know, my mind instantly focuses on the negatives, even know I KNOW that they are unlikely to happen. It's just how I am wired. 

I do my best to support them throughout their ordeals, I pray for them a lot, visit them, get them gifts/whatever they need etc, until they recover. It's good to be there for them when they need you the most.

Really? For me, those thoughts wouldn't even cross my mind. I don't worry about functions impacting my writing skills, because my stories seem to already be quite Si and Fe based.

Is it weird that what you're describing reminds me of this song? (Feel free to disagree, but I get this impression from your words):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zKX_zR022QY


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> @_laurie17_ may be able to explain Fi better than me.


Er, it seems to be unconscious in me, because I find my Te much more noticeable overall - as in, it's very conscious. I didn't realise I really used loads of Fi until my sister pointed it out with examples, then I sort of went 'Oh... yeah, that makes sense, actually' then proceeded to gather evidence because I doubt my decisions on things based on certain systems.

It seems to be mostly being very mellow, or feeling mellow, yet people who are close to me see me as intense. I have 'bursts' of strong feeling that come out, but mostly everything is kept inside (not in an unhealthy way, it's just how I prefer to process things). I don't share myself very easily or naturally, unless I'm discussing something important to me with someone I'm very comfortable with (and they don't break my flow - if they break it, then I withdraw because I become self-conscious/self-aware about what we're discussing and it's no longer 'natural'). I'm also very god at understanding people, even though I rarely try to connect with them on any level. I can usually understand why someone is acting a certain way or how they will react to something and I think at one point when I was feeling a bit down I said something like 'people are easy to understand, they're predictable' or something equally cynical (I don't genuinely think that, as people are changeable and generally appear like puzzles to me).



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Working alone, I am absolutely terrible at it. I have zero motivation, get lost easily and have no-one there to help me/give me ideas and show me what I am meant to be doing. Even though I try to tell myself what I am to be doing, it always ends up a mess.
> 
> If I have to work on a project alone, I start reflecting through everything up to the present moment. I remember what I said I was going to do, how I was going to do it and where I was intending to research.
> 
> In group work, I like to compare my answers to other people's. I also like people bouncing ideas/solutions/their findings off mine. I feel at ease in a group. The more people happily helping others, and working on the same project, the better.
> 
> What are my mental processes to the outside world? Very extroverted, people orientated, blending into the environment, saying things related to the subject, friendly. Focused on others, sometimes ideas, and then when I am home, I take all those outside ideas/opinions and form my own personal memories/comparisons/reminders in my mind. And I also sometimes use my own logic, which also seems to go hand in hand with people based systems, dilemmas, ideas and motives.
> 
> Um... I think that is all?


ESFJ, you have too much Ne.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


> Did we consider that just like @angelcat is a "weird" Si>Ne @alittlebear is a "weird" Ni>Se in a way that she doesn't express her vision through screaming into the microphone?


You will remain traumatized about the microphone screaming issue! I can see it growing into you, you will become one *tries to subtly inspire you into expressing yourself through screaming* . :kitteh:


----------



## Max

@laurie17 - So, you think I'm Fe-Si-NE-TI? Interesting. I can relate to Ne more as a tertiary function, but I *THINK* I use Ti better. But yes, I do see where you are coming from. I can be a total nutter sometimes, thanks to Ne. And I can see it as my relief function.


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## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> @alittlebear, if you think you're Ni, why not just be an ENFJ? Go hang out with the other ENFJs on their forum, and see how you stack in comparative discussions. If you understand them all? Excellent! If not, and you get stuck asking, "what are they even talking about?" consider SFJ. The only way you can tell is to BE AROUND SOME and see if you speak Ni.
> 
> You can argue semantics and details and what ifs until judgment day (ha, ha, cute) but what we see in you and what you think about yourself doesn't matter squat in reality. Reality is where your cognition shows. So get out of this thread, cease your subscription to it, whatever, and go LIVE for awhile.
> 
> Hear you, on the book thing. I'm sitting on a book at the moment, anxious about it, because it's not RIGHT yet. It's not PERFECT yet. Something is amiss with it, and hell if I know what it is, but until it feels right, I'm not releasing it. It's been three months. Other people say it's great. But it feels fragmented and convoluted and not whole, and I don't know how to fix it, so I'm procrastinating about it.
> 
> *sulks*


I.. yeah. The thing is, I'm not as magical as NFJs in fiction. In the NF forum, the INFJ forum (which I'm wary of due to mistypes) and the ENFJ forum? I understand what they mean with no complications. The ENFJs are more bold than me, but apart from that. The NF forum especially, I think I am fluent there and completely on that level. 

With my story... It's just... more than that. It's that I have to make my vision of it perfect, not that I have to make it perfect in itself. I've even fixated on it for so long. It has to be THIS story, and I have to make sure it does what I need it to... I can't describe how important it is to me. Like... I didn't pinpoint it before but yes, I understand that fixation as Ni is always described to.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also @angelcat lol yes about the Fe! I feel silly but this vision realization has made me convinced I'm ENFJ, I literally just messaged @Curiphant saying "I know I use Ni now, but my Fe is going to hold me back because others see me as ISFJ and that's going to cloud my understanding!" Gosh, my need to see my type and have others agree with it is certainly very very Fe. (And I considered Fi... Lol.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

(And again, like I might just be throwing this stuff out there for nothing... I really, really really do not want to be a mistyped person claiming to be NFJ. But it... It really does fit. It makes so much sense now. I'm an anxiety-ridden and traumatized person who has had reasons to have been traumatized throughout her life in a very Si-driven environment where here Fe makes me speak S and subconsciously adopt S traits, but... My mind is Ni. I escape through Se. My life is my vision, which I've been fixating on since I was small. I'm not magical enough to be the ENFJs in movies, but that's because they're too magical to be anyone.)
(But umm... Yeah, if I'm way off I'm still way off. This is making too much sense to me and it suddenly fits so well but... Still of course I am being over excited and if I am being irrational here please do correct me.)


----------



## AdInfinitum

@alittlebear I know Fe can be overwhelming but my advice is give yourself some breathing time and seek within as for only taking some time alone you can actually see who you are, the everyday slander in looking for answers in small pieces (shards of thought that have the appearance of Ni, memories that look like Si, etc) when you need to shift perspective, let yourself think freely, unbiased. Lengthy exposure to tremendous amounts of conversations based on your thinking process can mystify yourself even more. But maybe that is just me.


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## Pressed Flowers

NobleRaven said:


> @alittlebear I know Fe can be overwhelming but my advice is give yourself some breathing time and seek within as for only taking some time alone you can actually see who you are, the everyday slander in looking for answers in small pieces (shards of thought that have the appearance of Ni, memories that look like Si, etc) when you need to shift perspective, let yourself think freely, unbiased. Lengthy exposure to tremendous amounts of conversations based on your thinking process can mystify yourself even more. But maybe that is just me.


No... I think you are quite right. My Fe is going to distract me from what my type is. I need to curl up with Jung, do some introspection, and really figure this all out with minimal external exposure.


----------



## Greyhart

It's been 380 pages and I still don't see you as Si Ne

















u are plenty weird from my point of view


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> No... I think you are quite right. My Fe is going to distract me from what my type is. I need to curl up with Jung, do some introspection, and really figure this all out with minimal external exposure.


I'va had a major few days freak out in Jan. AM I ENFP? Fi-TE??? I WAS WRONG AFTER ALL THESE MONTHS??! WHERE ARE MY FI FEELS??? AM I REALLY A SOCIOPATH AS I THOUGHT BECAUSE I DON'T FEEL AS STRONGLY AS FP SHOULD?????????? AM I AN ENFP GONE BAD????


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> It's been 380 pages and I still don't see you as Si Ne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> u are plenty weird from my point of view


I concur. @alittlebear is very, very Ni-Fe in my opinion. I just can't see Si-Ne...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> It's been 380 pages and I still don't see you as Si Ne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> u are plenty weird from my point of view


/tries to figure out whether it's worth getting offended over that I was just declared weird by an ENTP of all types/


----------



## Greyhart

pH, SHIT. @NobleRaven 








Did you accept?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I'va had a major few days freak out in Jan. AM I ENFP? Fi-TE??? I WAS WRONG AFTER ALL THESE MONTHS??! WHERE ARE MY FI FEELS??? AM I REALLY A SOCIOPATH AS I THOUGHT BECAUSE I DON'T FEEL AS STRONGLY AS FP SHOULD?????????? AM I AN ENFP GONE BAD????


I honestly don't know what it is about typology junkies that makes us feel a sense of whirlwind when we don't see where we got in the type system, but it's definitely a negative phenomenon.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


> pH, SHIT. @NobleRaven
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you accept?


Wait what :th_woot: What should I accept? I was not paying attention!


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> /tries to figure out whether it's worth getting offended over that I was just declared weird by an ENTP of all types/


I just had a lengthy convo with my ISFJ friend about "weirdness". And yes NJs are weird to me but I LIKE weird, I breath with weird.

Behold, the weird!

_So this is copypasta of the chat with my friend. We had a conversation about "weird" and how I had a reputation of being one. I realized that because she never didn't meet me before 20 she doesn't have a context since I am... socially accommodated at this point. _










I realized I told you multiple times that I was perceived as weird in school including times when my classroom teacher would drag me to the shrink's office and they both would tell me how they know my kind and they've seen us end up as homeless druggies.
So there's a context!
Although by the high school I became more socially aware and aimed for cool tomboy image because you know manly = cool.
In the mid school... Oh, boy, you know I didn't actually retrospect until I got into whole typing thing and needed that for... typing purposes.
So the mid school.
I would either not brush my hair for weeks so my teacher would corner me and brush me while I was whining and ouching OR I would come with weird hair styles like 3 pigtails or 2 but one at the base of the skull and the other one high up on the top of my head. Or multiple braids but like uneven because I did them myself.
Sometimes I would forget to wear pants/skirts and come to school in tights or legging only.
I covered my faced in a think layer of very white powder and used briiiight blue shades on my eyelids.
I'd wear mismatching socks or bright "kiddy" knitted scarves indoors.
I painted by nails in different colors and then would keep peeling polish without reapplying it before it was completely gone.
This was like this until grade 9-ish I think. That was when I cut my hair short and colored it black.
Before that I was blonde and redhead.
Why was i like this? Well I can't remember my thought process exactly but if I had to theorize, I always wanted to be liked but as a child being weird and zany loud kid attracted other kids and it was alright so when I started growing up I realized it's not enough. I think I've modeled myself after fictional characters from cartoons and books I've read and i loved "Alice through the looking-glass" a lot if you know what I mean. Also I loved making people laugh it was positive attention from my point of view so I also took after comedians and funny characters too.
I got socially aware later and switched to magazines like "Cool Girl" to guide me in how I should look to make a good impression.
Coincidentally my INFP bff was a super normal looking super quiet kid which is why I liked her cause I knew she was weird like me but nobody else could see it because of how private she was. ENFJ friend was kind of talkative and socially aware kid but also awkward too. She had sense of style that you'd expect from a gypsy fortune teller or something. With lots of mismatching accessories, kohl, black hair, and patterned but really mismatched clothes. 
And now I'm apparently a mainstream hipster, my bff dresses up as Japanese Gothic Lolita to work. ENFJ friend... is still kid of eccentric but in a more unified stylish way I guess.
Basically another reason I see function theory working - I got socially aware AND grounded in reality, INFP let her weirdness out into the real world for everyone to see, ENFJ ... got confident, action-y and well more "popular" fashion aware I guess...


----------



## Greyhart

NobleRaven said:


> Wait what :th_woot: What should I accept? I was not paying attention!


great fucking job me I meant @fair phantom


fair phantom said:


> My boyfriend proposed tonight. I'm feeling a bit like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (in other words I'm probably in such a good mood that it is annoying)


I got focused on your last post and there. If I could die from failing to tag properly I would.


----------



## Immolate

My Te is going crazy over here.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I.. yeah. The thing is, I'm not as magical as NFJs in fiction. In the NF forum, the INFJ forum (which I'm wary of due to mistypes) and the ENFJ forum? I understand what they mean with no complications. The ENFJs are more bold than me, but apart from that. The NF forum especially, I think I am fluent there and completely on that level.


Then that's what you are. Stop over-thinking it just because a certain forum member who thinks in Ti/Ne mythological abstracts threw a wrench into your proverbial wheel.



> With my story... It's just... more than that. It's that I have to make my vision of it perfect, not that I have to make it perfect in itself. I've even fixated on it for so long. It has to be THIS story, and I have to make sure it does what I need it to... I can't describe how important it is to me. Like... I didn't pinpoint it before but yes, I understand that fixation as Ni is always described to.


With me, it's more "dammit, this story just go out of hand, didn't it? I deviated from the plan, didn't I? Did I even keep that one plot thread that I started months ago all the way through to the end? When I edited the hell out of this novel, did I keep everything I needed to make it coherent? Because it's complete in my head, but it feels fragmented on the page."

One of these days I'm going to learn my lesson and start doing outlines, like Rowling does. Detail and plan everything in advance so I can execute it to perfection. But until that day comes, Ne takes me on a merry go round.

Also? ENFJs are not magical. ENFJs are Martin Luther King Jr and his grand visions for the future, and Obama and his HOPE AND CHANGE. ENFJs are the person that whips other people (meaning: not me) into a frenzy of excitement about THE GLORIOUS FUTURE, but at the end of the speech, people ask, "Um... is there a specific plan in there somewhere?" ENFJs sound really smart, whether or not they are (no offense, I'm not talking about you), and get pegged as "intellectuals" because they can spew nonsensical stuff like nobody's business.

Meanwhile, the SJs look at them and think: "is it nice on Planet Ni?" LOL


----------



## Max

@Greyhart @angelcat @shinynotshiny @hoopla @Oswin @laurie17 @fair phantom

Ok Class, Professor Lucho is here. Prof.Lucho is going to simplify this diagram and turn it into people speak:

Um... here are our four functions. Fe-Si-Ne-Ti, and how I would say I use them and what role they play in my life:










On the left hand side, we have the order of how these functions develop in a healthy person. 

At the bottom, we have how they're divided up in terms of usage.

On the right hand side, I have added that they are all used varyingly in terms of development. 

So ... everyone. How would you say you use these functions and in what order? And also, how do you think Bear would use her functions, compared to this chart? 

This is a fun, group activity. Please don't fight. You can draw diagrams and use gifs if you like. We're all in this together . 

(Don't even ask. I would make a bad teacher, I know).


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Then that's what you are. Stop over-thinking it just because a certain forum member who t*hinks in Ti/Ne mythological abstracts* threw a wrench into your proverbial wheel.


 @alittlebear could actually live in a different dimension and we communicate only via magic les Internets. OR @arkigos lives in a different dimension where Ni & Si work differently so he is right from his point of view.









Unrelated but watching Arrow and Olie is like 

* *




"No, I won't become a head of an evil organization I'd rather let them destroy my life, reputation and my family!". MORON, TAKE HIS PLACE AND USE THAT POWER FOR GOOD!!


----------



## Greyhart

Ti is the functions that thinks that aliens visiting to probe our asses it totally logical. 

I like this one


> Extroverted Thinking: watch me profit from the moon
> 
> Extroverted Feeling: i don’t feel love or affection for humankind. i only illegally torrent the feelings of others
> 
> Extroverted Intuition: sometimes i just want to savour the rapturous caress of chaos
> 
> Extroverted Sensing: i guess its irresponsible that i use all of my money to endorse my ass
> 
> Introverted Thinking: (shoveling handfuls of moss into my mouth) i pretend to be science
> 
> Introverted Feeling: tfw ur trying to relax but u cant help but cry over every single person on earth
> 
> Introverted Intuition: when i wake up i immediately prepare for death
> 
> Introverted Sensing: i have learned not to get kicked by that fucked up baby


Learn About Your Fake Personality Online, Cognitive Functions as Shitpost Generator...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart CW protagonists have no sense. It's a thing we've all got to accept to watch that addictive, fluffy crap.


----------



## 68097

Oooh, class is in session. _How can I screw with it?_

Bear's an ENFJ. We all know it. Well, one person doesn't, but he's not here to defend himself, so he's excluded.

Most used? I have to figure out what I MOST USE?

Aw, man. I can't. 

I mean, I take the dog for a walk, and get bored, and start fantasizing I'm being interviewed about my books on Jay Leno or whatever, and talk to myself / the invisible Jay Leno, in order to see how clever I sound. That would be Ne, yes? Welcome to my life. I do this ALL THE TIME.

But then I come home and my dad hands me a giant tome of theology and says, "Oh, hey, did you know that Genesis has been misinterpreted for thousands of years?" and I go, "What?! NOO! I ... want to believe you, but that goes against, like, 32 years of my life, and teaching, and I can't deal with this. Yet," which would be Si. (A week later and I'm still -- doubtful.)

As we all know, I'm Si/Ne. Sucks, but it's true.

So that leaves Fe and Ti. Do I use my Ti more than my Ne? Well, I sit and watch "Sherlock" and point out how irrational most of it is, and how implausible it all is, and how I think Moffat has finally lost his freaking mind because he's not even in the realm of believability anymore, which seems more like Ti-criticizing overwhelming Ne "squee, this is so awesome and fun and what an interesting tack to take!" Right? Or not? 

People here say that my Ne is higher than my Ti (except for the ones that don't), yet that cannot explain why Fe-doms get on my nerves in real life, with very little effort. Also, they don't seem to mind being the center of attention, which isn't me. At all. I'm more the "I'm going to sit here in the corner and pretend to be invisible, so please don't call on me, or ask me to say anything in front of the group" type. 

So, I guess my method of operation is:

Si - how does this compare with what I know?
Fe - don't you dare treat that other person like that!
Ti - what you just said is stupid.
Ne - this is boring, how can I make it interesting?


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> Ti is the functions that thinks that aliens visiting to probe our asses it totally logical.
> 
> I like this one
> 
> 
> Learn About Your Fake Personality Online, Cognitive Functions as Shitpost Generator...


OH MY GOSH. That's awesome.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Ti is the functions that thinks that aliens visiting to probe our asses it totally logical.
> 
> I like this one
> 
> 
> Learn About Your Fake Personality Online, Cognitive Functions as Shitpost Generator...


Oh my corncob, Grey. Oh my corncob.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Oooh, class is in session. _How can I screw with it?_
> 
> Bear's an ENFJ. We all know it. Well, one person doesn't, but he's not here to defend himself, so he's excluded.


He'll have to step forward sooner or later :ninja:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> He'll have to step forward sooner or later :ninja:


I've been on Tapatalk all day, so I haven't seen our member count. What happened to all our guests? I'm disappointed, in them for not sticking with us and with us for not continuing to rapture their stalker-esque attentions.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I've been on Tapatalk all day, so I haven't seen our member count. What happened to all our guests? I'm disappointed, in them for not sticking with us and with us for not continuing to rapture their stalker-esque attentions.


We must have tested their loyalty.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> We must have tested their loyalty.


At least we know who our true non-member followers are now.


----------



## Tad Cooper

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Working alone, I am absolutely terrible at it. I have zero motivation, get lost easily and have no-one there to help me/give me ideas and show me what I am meant to be doing. Even though I try to tell myself what I am to be doing, it always ends up a mess.
> *Spunds like being a bit anxious, maybe mixed with lower Te?
> *
> If I have to work on a project alone, I start reflecting through everything up to the present moment. I remember what I said I was going to do, how I was going to do it and where I was intending to research.
> *That sounds like good sense.
> *
> In group work, I like to compare my answers to other people's. I also like people bouncing ideas/solutions/their findings off mine. I feel at ease in a group. The more people happily helping others, and working on the same project, the better.
> *Could be any external function, but maybe more Ne.
> *
> What are my mental processes to the outside world? Very extroverted, people orientated, blending into the environment, saying things related to the subject, friendly. Focused on others, sometimes ideas, and then when I am home, I take all those outside ideas/opinions and form my own personal memories/comparisons/reminders in my mind. And I also sometimes use my own logic, which also seems to go hand in hand with people based systems, dilemmas, ideas and motives.
> *That hints at an external function again, combined with feeling. Maybe Ne and Fx?*
> 
> Um... I think that is all?


I put some functions in bold. You see quite Ne user-like in your answers, so maybe ENFP?


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> So, I guess my method of operation is:
> 
> Si - how does this compare with what I know?
> Fe - don't you dare treat that other person like that!
> Ti - what you just said is stupid.
> Ne - this is boring, how can I make it interesting?


Te -










Fi - Tsundere


----------



## Greyhart

ARROW. THEY HAD SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* *




AFTER 3 SEASONS OH MY GOD. EMILY RICKARDS IS TOO HOT FOR WORDS... and only 2 years younger than me oh thank god im not crushing over a minor


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> ARROW. THEY HAD SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AFTER 3 SEASONS OH MY GOD. EMILY RICKARDS IS TOO HOT FOR WORDS... and only 2 years younger than me oh thank god im not crushing over a minor


My dad alluded to that episode... I was saying how CW is actually not very sensually graphic and he went "yeah well you should have seen that episode of The Arrow I just watched"

My legs froze while my dad was watching the finale, so I ended up watching it with him. Arrow actually seems like a better quality show than my heart series Reign.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> My dad alluded to that episode... I was saying how CW is actually not very graphic and he went "yeah well you should have seen that episode of The Arrow I just watched"


Meh, it wasn't graphic I'm just happy all the dancing around for 3 seasons got resolved. 

* *




If she was ENTP tbh they'd get laid in season 1 I wouldn't be able to stand all the pinning and would go for "SO DO U WANT IT OR NOT?!" and the whole "meh weh I can't have you bc I'm protecting the city" bitch please you are already practically married


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Meh, it wasn't graphic I'm just happy all the dancing around for 3 seasons got resolved.
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she was ENTP tbh they'd get laid in season 1 I wouldn't be able to stand all the pinning and would go for "SO DO U WANT IT OR NOT?!" and the whole "meh weh I can't have you bc I'm protecting the city" bitch please you are already practically married


Oh, Greyhart. If only I had access to memes right now to express the smiley-head-shaking I am experiencing right now.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Oh, Greyhart. If only I had access to memes right now to express the smiley-head-shaking I am experiencing right now.


I am disappointed that I missed the chance to use this gif









And then I'll have 4 more eps of Barry's pinning. JUST TALK DIRECTLY, PEOPLE, IT'S NOT THAT HARD.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

If you're in the latest season and shipping someone with the main guy... mm. You're definitely going to have feelings at the end, I'll tell you that much.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> My dad alluded to that episode... I was saying how CW is actually not very sensually graphic


... you say that, having seen Reign? REALLY? I was shocked how explicit that show is, for primetime television.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> ... you say that, having seen Reign? REALLY? I was shocked how explicit that show is, for primetime television.


Hmm... Maybe it's just my first show, so it doesn't seem as terrible as I expected? There's no nudity like in Game of Thrones (unless it's very subtle), and the scenes are mostly just a few seconds long as opposed to the dramatic minute long scenes that I remember from Game of Thrones or even on the new show my dad and I are watching, Turn. 

It's not as clean as, say, the 100 - which had a scene or two each season that made me go "woah" - but it's not nearly as... whatever word one could use to encase the stuff that happens in GOT.

Edit: also, MARCO POLO. I want to finish the series still but my dad and I had to stop watching because it had... I'm talking ten minute long scenes that were very dramatized. It was ridiculous. Reign seems exceptionally light after all that.


----------



## Immolate

I take a break and now we're talking about sex.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I take a break and now we're talking about sex.


This is why we need you here, Shiny.


----------



## 68097

I'm used to skipping or fast-forwarding cable shows, but I don't expect it on the CW. Still, I've seen The Vampire Diaries so ... I guess I should have expected Reign to be skanky.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> If you're in the latest season and shipping someone with the main guy... mm. You're definitely going to have feelings at the end, I'll tell you that much.


With Barry? Nah, he had best "chemistry" with Felicity (probably because actress is just that charming she has chemistry with everyone) and that fell through for other reasons. I just hate needless pinning plot lines. That awkwardness of foggy/unclear "emotional" air between characters is killing me. Communicating saves you 50 pages of angst.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I take a break and now we're talking about sex.


It's not about sex, it's about clear communication between people that are close to each other.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> This is why we need you here, Shiny.


Do you know what you're saying tho


* *






































< legit line directed at no one I am no perv




All the more awkward when you know they're married in real life and have two kids.

Also Supernatural is on the CW right????? I don't know. I watch on Hulu.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> It's not about sex, it's about clear communication between people that are close to each other.


_Oh._

Of course.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> < legit line directed at no one I am no perv


That's the best line. Clear intentions. "I'm sexually attracted to you and would like to engage in relationship that would get us horizontal at some point." you can't misinterpret that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gosh. Like so many people are into Supernatural but I have no interest? My INTP bffl is actually really into it now and I know I have access to it via Netflix but I dunno if it's worth it. 

But yeah, SPN is a CW show.


----------



## Greyhart

@Living dead what instinct stacking do you think I am? I've been wobbling between those, I don't think I am SP last though.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Gosh. Like so many people are into Supernatural but I have no interest? My INTP bffl is actually really into it now and I know I have access to it via Netflix but I dunno if it's worth it.
> 
> But yeah, SPN is a CW show.


It was alright from seasons 1-5 but now it's just the same theme over and over and over with some hilarious moments here and there.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Gosh. Like so many people are into Supernatural but I have no interest? My INTP bffl is actually really into it now and I know I have access to it via Netflix but I dunno if it's worth it.
> 
> But yeah, SPN is a CW show.


I tried seasons one, it was creepy but I wasn't hooked, I think characters did nothing to catch my attention. My INFP bff does watch it but she's constantly goes "Why?! Why am I still watching this? Why do I do this to myself?!". I mostly watch it via gifs on tumblr.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> @_Living dead_ what instinct stacking do you think I am? I've been wobbling between those, I don't think I am SP last though.


Question not directed at me, so I'm not sure if you mind me answering. I think you come across as SO/SX on the outside. Why do you think SP in the top two?


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> Gosh. Like so many people are into Supernatural but I have no interest? My INTP bffl is actually really into it now and I know I have access to it via Netflix but I dunno if it's worth it.
> 
> But yeah, SPN is a CW show.


Same here, I really enjoy shows like Fargo and The Returned (French TV series), but am not really into Supernatural...


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I tried seasons one, it was creepy but I wasn't hooked, I think characters did nothing to catch my attention. My INFP bff does watch it but she's constantly goes *"Why?! Why am I still watching this? Why do I do this to myself?!"*. I mostly watch it via gifs on tumblr.


It's that kind of show.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I tried seasons one, it was creepy but I wasn't hooked, I think characters did nothing to catch my attention. My INFP bff does watch it but she's constantly goes "Why?! Why am I still watching this? Why do I do this to myself?!". *I mostly watch it via gifs on tumblr*.


Literally same.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Question not directed at me, so I'm not sure if you mind me answering. I think you come across as SO/SX on the outside. Why do you think SP in the top two?


Cautious IRL, very careful about my physical safety, stingy with money and property (growing up in poverty?), didn't get ill for many years because as a kid I had weak health so I got used to keeping an eye of my health states. Still flop on forgetting to eat or sleep like Si inferior but keep myself from getting cold by wearing proper clothes and not drinking or eating cold foods (which is something many including my mother flop on, I don't). Based on this somekind of S-/S-/So. And if based on this Sx/Sp seem almost self-destructive which I don't think I am. I thought SP/SO originally but after thinking for some time it doesn't fit well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

As for shows, I've mentioned this to @angelcat before and @shinynotshiny has commented on it but I'm not sure if I should watch The Tudors or Merlin next. I'm probably going to watch The Tudors, so I can watch Merlin with my friend, but I haven't actually had the time to start either yet. (Probably because I'm always here, reading, or volunteering, lol.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart I agree with @laurie17 that you immediately seem SO/SX.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> As for shows, I've mentioned this to @angelcat before and @shinynotshiny has commented on it but I'm not sure if I should watch The Tudors or Merlin next. I'm probably going to watch The Tudors, so I can watch Merlin with my friend, but I haven't actually had the time to start either yet. (Probably because I'm always here, reading, or volunteering, lol.)


merlin








my weird bby


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart I agree with @laurie17 that you immediately seem SO/SX.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Cautious IRL, very careful about my physical safety, stingy with money and property (growing up in poverty?), didn't get ill for many years because as a kid I had weak health so I got used to keeping an eye of my health states. Still flop on forgetting to eat or sleep like Si inferior but keep myself from getting cold by wearing proper clothes and not drinking or eating cold foods (which is something many including my mother flop on, I don't). Based on this somekind of S-/S-/So. And if based on this Sx/Sp seem almost self-destructive which I don't think I am. I thought SP/SO originally but after thinking for some time it doesn't fit well.


Hmmm, well I found this. What do you think?
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-instinctual-variants-sp-sx-so-explained.html


----------



## Immolate

Ugh Im on my phone and can't fully appreciate Greyhart's posts.

Merlin? What?


----------



## Darkbloom

Greyhart said:


> @Living dead what instinct stacking do you think I am? I've been wobbling between those, I don't think I am SP last though.


I'm not sure,I agree with whomever said that you don't seem SO last but it's hard to tell with instincts,they are that most basic thing that imo doesn't always appear that clearly in interactions with some types.How they show also depends on core type.Have you read some 7 subtype descriptions?They are so over the top sometimes,very extreme,but they can help.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Ugh Im on my phone and can't fully appreciate Greyhart's posts.
> 
> Merlin? What?


I think she was expressing her love for him. Possibly.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> As for shows, I've mentioned this to @_angelcat_ before and @_shinynotshiny_ has commented on it but I'm not sure if I should watch The Tudors or *Merlin* next. I'm probably going to watch The Tudors, so I can watch Merlin with my friend, but I haven't actually had the time to start either yet. (Probably because I'm always here, reading, or volunteering, lol.)


I really recommend the old BBC two-part film of Merlin, starring Sam Neil. It's one of my favourite programs by them (also The Woman in Black dramatisation is amazing and so far Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell looks promising).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> Hmmm, well I found this. What do you think?
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-instinctual-variants-sp-sx-so-explained.html


That topic's explanation always convinced me I'm SO/SX.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> I really recommend the old BBC two-part film of Merlin, starring Sam Neil. It's one of my favourite programs by them (also The Woman in Black dramatisation is amazing and so far Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell looks promising).


I'll keep it in mind. Thank you for the reccomendation!


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Hmmm, well I found this. What do you think?
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-instinctual-variants-sp-sx-so-explained.html


ugh, not sure. On one had I NEED comfortable bed and hot water and good shower pressure and comfy chair and Internet... also sweets. On the other hand I am not really focused on erm "multiplying" my property beyond buying useless things like crystal growing kits and 3d puzzles. This SP makes it sound like SJ type to be honest. I need my level of comfort to function but it's not main focus? Hm, this does make it seem like SP isn't main. Sx sounds more like although I'm not sure about chemistry, I usually follow curiosity and intrigue - people that look like kaleidoscopes that I need to take apart to understand. Wow, creeeeeeepy. Take apart not in a bad way. You know, examine like computer parts. I'm making it worse. I love humans, I'm not creepy. For social, although as I said I love people, I love connections but I'm not interested in engaging in community work of any kind, and not really into "group activities" for the sake of "group" part but because of... curiosity/intrigue usually. I brought up my relationship with parties here. As my sig suggest I am certain I am inquisitive>egocentric big five type. I'm quite self-centered in my life style.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I think she was expressing her love for him. Possibly.





shinynotshiny said:


> Ugh Im on my phone and can't fully appreciate Greyhart's posts.
> 
> Merlin? What?


Le BBC show. It has INFJ baby Merlin and it makes me feel things.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Le BBC show. It has INFJ baby Merlin and it makes me feel things.


Oh, yes, I know of this Merlin and the feel things.


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> I'm not sure,I agree with whomever said that you don't seem SO last but it's hard to tell with instincts,they are that most basic thing that imo doesn't always appear that clearly in interactions with some types.How they show also depends on core type.Have you read some 7 subtype descriptions?They are so over the top sometimes,very extreme,but they can help.


_So_ very over the top. I don't think I am SX last that is for sure.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Merlin honestly sounds like just the type of character I love. (Not to steal your bae, @Greyhart. Just stating fact.)


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> Le BBC show. It has INFJ baby Merlin and it makes me feel things.


Sam Neil Merlin show was stunning, one of my favourite two part series to watch even now.


----------



## Greyhart

@Living dead


> Sexual/Self-pres
> The energy of the sexual instinct is, in some ways, at odds with the type Seven fixation. The Seven’s focus is future oriented and outward, away from the inner world, while the sexual variant is instinctual and dwells on the inner self as far as relationships and identity are concerned. This combination can make for a Seven that can be Four-like in many ways. They can have a flamboyant style and be very moody and intense. In relationships, there is often a push-pull quality. They are very attracted to the falling in love part. The buzz and high of that is very stimulating to them, almost drug-like for them. Their problems come when that buzz wears off. They want to recreate it again and again, but they also have a way of becoming attached and sometimes very dependent on their romantic partners. On the down side, they can be very clingy but don’t want at the same time to lose their freedom. When unhealthy, they can be very selfish in these relationships, things become one-sided in a way that favors the interests of the Seven.
> 
> The sexual/self-pres Seven’s addictive behavior with relationships can extend to other areas, like music, and performing in general. The rock star image and lifestyle can be attractive to the sexual Seven. Many rock stars are sexual Sevens the buzz they experience from music can be similar to what they experience in relationships. Creativity can also function as a release of frustration from the boredom.





> Self-pres/Sexual
> 
> This subtype is similar to the self-pres/social, but their plans and pursuits are more passionate in nature. There is often more of an artistic flair. They can be moodier then the other subtype. Their focus is more on relationships, although commitment can also be a problem for this subtype. This subtype can even be known to use introspection as an escape. They can go inward with a seeming depth, but they will usually avoid the most troublesome areas, the areas and characteristics most painful to them.
> 
> This subtype of Seven is overall more focused than the self-pres/social. Their focus is on their intimates although certainly not solely on them as they usually have many other fires burning also. They generally have a great sense of humor, sharp quick minds and many interests. These qualities might be common to all subtypes of the Seven, but in the self-pres/sexual subtype, the infusion of enthusiasm comes through when they are engaged in their plans and fulfilling them.


That Sx/Sp description is a bit of 'woah, there'









Going by just plain instinct type descriptions, it seems Sx>Sp>So. Oh, God, am I really rock star addict sort?

Also, I'm not moody, no way.


----------



## Greyhart

It's because in Russian/Ukrainian the (a) ending is feminine. Alexander = male, Alexandra = female. Eugenia = female, Eugeni = male. Ivan = male, Ivanna = female. so on. So Morgan is seen as male name. And since it's a fictional character adding 'a' isn't much of a side-step to prevent confusion.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> I think it's a unisex name like... well, Laurie. I think it's more common in America - I don't think I've ever met anyone called Morgan in the UK.


Really? Oh my goodness. I never realized that. I also can't imagine a boy named Laurie... I know girls names Lauren, but never a boy named Lauren or even a girl named Laurie.


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> Really? Oh my goodness. I never realized that. I also can't imagine a boy named Laurie... I know girls names Lauren, but never a boy named Lauren or even a girl named Laurie.


Look up Laurie Lee!


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Really? Oh my goodness. I never realized that. I also can't imagine a boy named Laurie... I know girls names Lauren, but never a boy named Lauren or even a girl named Laurie.


The names derive from Laurel, which is a masculine name, and Lauren/Laura/Lori are all feminine, but Laurie is unisex - there was a boy in my primary school about three or four years above me who was also called Laurie.



tine said:


> Look up Laurie Lee!



I forgot him  He's one of my favourite authors!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> It's because in Russian/Ukrainian the (a) ending is feminine. Alexander = male, Alexandra = female. Eugenia = female, Eugeni = male. Ivan = male, Ivanna = female. so on. So Morgan is seen as male name. And since it's a fictional character adding 'a' isn't much of a side-step to prevent confusion.


I'm not too unfamiliar with non-American and actually-classy linguistic trends.  I just didn't realize before that Morgan could be an uncommon name (a name like Merlin or Guieviere that seems from a time other than our own). It's nice to see outside your own life and see how it stands against the general experience.


----------



## Greyhart

After thinking for a few minutes I might be a bit of crank and somewhat moody sometimes... Also according to Google crank is a slang for pure crystal meth. :|


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> After thinking for a few minutes I might be a bit of crank and somewhat moody sometimes... Also according to Google crank is a slang for pure crystal meth. :|


I think SX is about intensity rather than moodiness, if this is still on instinctual variants.


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> Oooh, class is in session. _How can I screw with it?_
> 
> Bear's an ENFJ. We all know it. Well, one person doesn't, but he's not here to defend himself, so he's excluded.
> 
> Most used? I have to figure out what I MOST USE?
> 
> Aw, man. I can't.
> 
> I mean, I take the dog for a walk, and get bored, and start fantasizing I'm being interviewed about my books on Jay Leno or whatever, and talk to myself / the invisible Jay Leno, in order to see how clever I sound. That would be Ne, yes? Welcome to my life. I do this ALL THE TIME.
> 
> But then I come home and my dad hands me a giant tome of theology and says, "Oh, hey, did you know that Genesis has been misinterpreted for thousands of years?" and I go, "What?! NOO! I ... want to believe you, but that goes against, like, 32 years of my life, and teaching, and I can't deal with this. Yet," which would be Si. (A week later and I'm still -- doubtful.)
> 
> As we all know, I'm Si/Ne. Sucks, but it's true.
> 
> So that leaves Fe and Ti. Do I use my Ti more than my Ne? Well, I sit and watch "Sherlock" and point out how irrational most of it is, and how implausible it all is, and how I think Moffat has finally lost his freaking mind because he's not even in the realm of believability anymore, which seems more like Ti-criticizing overwhelming Ne "squee, this is so awesome and fun and what an interesting tack to take!" Right? Or not?
> 
> People here say that my Ne is higher than my Ti (except for the ones that don't), yet that cannot explain why Fe-doms get on my nerves in real life, with very little effort. Also, they don't seem to mind being the center of attention, which isn't me. At all. I'm more the "I'm going to sit here in the corner and pretend to be invisible, so please don't call on me, or ask me to say anything in front of the group" type.
> 
> So, I guess my method of operation is:
> 
> Si - how does this compare with what I know?
> Fe - don't you dare treat that other person like that!
> Ti - what you just said is stupid.
> Ne - this is boring, how can I make it interesting?


When I am in groups, my extroverted functions flourish. They adore groups, people, attention. I never seem to tire either, lol.




tine said:


> I put some functions in bold. You see quite Ne user-like in your answers, so maybe ENFP?


I dunno where you are getting Fi from. If I am a Fi user, I am the lousiest Fi user ever. I am certain my Si is too strong to be inferior. To me, calling me ENFP is like calling Shiny an ISTP. Not even close, lol.

I think I use Fe over Fi, anyday.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> I think SX is about intensity rather than moodiness, if this is still on instinctual variants.


*snort* yeah it is. I was... delicately told by my ISFJ friend that I am intense. And mom said something like that too. Huh. huuuh.


----------



## owlet

LuchoIsLurking said:


> When I am in groups, my extroverted functions flourish. They adore groups, people, attention. I never seem to tire either, lol.
> 
> I dunno where you are getting Fi from. If I am a Fi user, I am the lousiest Fi user ever. I am certain my Si is too strong to be inferior. To me, calling me ENFP is like calling Shiny an ISTP. Not even close, lol.


I think the extraverted functions of the majority of people do become more pronounced in social situations, because of a requirement to confront the external environment.

Eh, I could see Ne as very high up, to be honest. It's extremely apparent. Fe can also look like Fi at times, hence lots of people being confused between the two.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I dunno where you are getting Fi from. If I am a Fi user, I am the lousiest Fi user ever. I am certain my Si is too strong to be inferior. To me, calling me ENFP is like calling Shiny an ISTP. Not even close, lol.
> 
> I think I use Fe over Fi, anyday.


 @tine didn't read your questionnaire so she bases it only on a few posts or just that particular post's... "flare". I've seen ESFJ comedians to be mistyped as ENFP. For Fe domness, my mother comes back after talking and hanging out with people for the entire day and she's is still ready to immediately talk to me about everything that happened.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> *snort* yeah it is. I was... delicately told by my ISFJ friend that I am intense. And mom said something like that too. Huh. huuuh.


Haha, I was told the same thing, but I'm just not sure about SX because of how it's put across as competitive etc., which I'm really not. Apparently SX is about seeking intensity, which is what I can definitely see in one or two of my friends, especially when one of them sort of blows things up in her head so it becomes drama.


----------



## Max

laurie17 said:


> I think the extraverted functions of the majority of people do become more pronounced in social situations, because of a requirement to confront the external environment.
> 
> Eh, I could see Ne as very high up, to be honest. It's extremely apparent. Fe can also look like Fi at times, hence lots of people being confused between the two.


True.

Yeah. But I can see Si over it. I can see my realism tying in with Ne, especially when I write. Maybe my Ne just looks pronounced, because it's developed. 

I think I am more realistic, than idealistic and idea orientated. Yes, I do have ideas, and yes I do like to fantasize and go crazy sometimes, but I apply a lot of myself to the real world and the people in it. 

I guess I have Si-Ne close together then. I honestly can NOT see Ne-Fi-Te-SI as my functions.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Haha, I was told the same thing, but I'm just not sure about SX because of how it's put across as competitive etc., which I'm really not. Apparently SX is about seeking intensity, which is what I can definitely see in one or two of my friends, especially when one of them sort of blows things up in her head so it becomes drama.


I'm not really a drama type although I love watching my trainwreck friends go at it. I think it's more about how when I am in the zone of a new interest (or old but the one I am like a "burning coals" about) I get _really_ into it. "Let talk about the thing... Now watch me talk really fast, make googly eyes and frantically wave my hands as I descend into the grip of whatever hormone induces "excited" state."


----------



## Greyhart

@LuchoIsLurking just link ur latest questionnaire thread. http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/557586-shut-front-door.html IMO no Fi there.


----------



## Tad Cooper

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I dunno where you are getting Fi from. If I am a Fi user, I am the lousiest Fi user ever. I am certain my Si is too strong to be inferior. To me, calling me ENFP is like calling Shiny an ISTP. Not even close, lol.
> 
> I think I use Fe over Fi, anyday.


Sorry, Im not very good at typing, especially with people I dont know well.


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> I think it's a combination of both,it's simply having Fe and being 2-fixed because 2 makes you wanna be loved and Fe/Ti in a way works on achieving that goal,things like 6 could influence it too though
> Sp/so?You really think you're sx last?
> I recently read (again) that your first instinct is what you are most concerned with,second one is the most comfortable one,third one is what you tend to neglect.I'm not sure what I think about that though when it comes to my type


Wait, I mistyped or something, I think I'm probably sp last but possibly so last. sx/so seems most likely to me.
Anyways, your comment about inferior functions...I think that's probably true. Makes a lot of sense.


----------



## owlet

LuchoIsLurking said:


> True.
> 
> Yeah. But I can see Si over it. I can see my realism tying in with Ne, especially when I write. Maybe my Ne just looks pronounced, because it's developed.
> 
> I think I am more realistic, than idealistic and idea orientated. Yes, I do have ideas, and yes I do like to fantasize and go crazy sometimes, but I apply a lot of myself to the real world and the people in it.
> 
> I guess I have Si-Ne close together then. I honestly can NOT see Ne-Fi-Te-SI as my functions.


Yeah, but that's from your own internal perspective. What people see in you will be different from what you see in yourself.

I don't think Ne is all fantasising and craziness... that's the stereotype. Ne is more likely to tend towards becoming inspired by seemingly unrelated objects (including words, images, symbols etc.) because it's a building function - it builds on things until they no longer seem like the original. This can be through fantasising, but mostly that's it being processed under an introverted function. The 'craziness' is usually just someone with a sense of humour who happens to use Ne. Se-Ni can be pretty silly too, but it's usually more physical.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> @LuchoIsLurking just link ur latest questionnaire thread. http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/557586-shut-front-door.html IMO no Fi there.


Thanks again. That's what I thought also. Isn't Fi into this: 'My morals, I will follow them.' 'I will follow my heart.' 'I think this is morally wrong because.. x.")'? I actually can't see a lot of it in me. Inner morals, values derived from a within. Nah. 


tine said:


> Sorry, Im not very good at typing, especially with people I dont know well.


Hey. It's okay. Thank you for your input, Bud  I understand where you are coming from, and I do respecr your opinion, but I disagree with some of it.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> I'm not really a drama type although I love watching my trainwreck friends go at it. I think it's more about how when I am in the zone of a new interest (or old but the one I am like a "burning coals" about) I get _really_ into it. "Let talk about the thing... Now watch me talk really fast, make googly eyes and frantically wave my hands as I descend into the grip of whatever hormone induces "excited" state."


Haha, that seems more just being passionate - it's more of a reaction rather than an active seeking of intensity, or is so as far as I can tell.


----------



## fair phantom

finally caught up *phew*
@Greyhart yes I accepted 

Thank you @tine @Living dead @laurie17 @Oswin @alittlebear @shinynotshiny and anyone else I missed.










(I feel kind of Fe right now lol).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I love how any kindness or politeness is immediately associated with Fe ;D

No, but really, congratulations @fair phantom. I hope you're still having a lovely time and truly soaking up this gorgeous moment.


----------



## Max

laurie17 said:


> Yeah, but that's from your own internal perspective. What people see in you will be different from what you see in yourself.
> 
> I don't think Ne is all fantasising and craziness... that's the stereotype. Ne is more likely to tend towards becoming inspired by seemingly unrelated objects (including words, images, symbols etc.) because it's a building function - it builds on things until they no longer seem like the original. This can be through fantasising, but mostly that's it being processed under an introverted function. The 'craziness' is usually just someone with a sense of humour who happens to use Ne. Se-Ni can be pretty silly too, but it's usually more physical.


Nah. I think I use abstract sensations more than I use extroverted inuition. I am good at using Si, and tend to use it more than I use Ne. It seems to come more natural to me. But yes, I can see how I use Ne in certain activities.

Imagine you have moved house. You have entered the room:

Fe is the room, Si is big boxes of stuff, Ne is the windows, and Ti as the door. 

(Yes, I am terrible at explaining things, and terrible at theorizing, but that is how I imagine it).


----------



## owlet

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Thanks again. That's what I thought also. Isn't Fi into this: 'My morals, I will follow them.' 'I will follow my heart.' 'I think this is morally wrong because.. x.")'? I actually can't see a lot of it in me. Inner morals, values derived from a within. Nah.
> 
> Hey. It's okay. Thank you for your input, Bud  I understand where you are coming from, and I do respecr your opinion, but I disagree with some of it.


Hm, that's not really the whole Fi thing... I'm not all into morals and 'following my heart'. That's a bit... cheesy. I think it's more a 'compass' that indicates the 'right' way to go with something, but I can ignore it, especially if I need to be practical. I.e. my mum was saying it was great how I could dedicate more time to writing now, but I quickly corrected her, saying I needed to prepare for my JLPT in July. My 'heart' wants to write, because that's my passion, but my 'head' knows I need to do revision, or I may not pass the test.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> finally caught up *phew*
> @Greyhart yes I accepted














laurie17 said:


> Haha, that seems more just being passionate - it's more of a reaction rather than an active seeking of intensity, or is so as far as I can tell.


This is hard. :th_sur:

Snow White looks incredibly fake-y happy here


----------



## orbit

Yo has anyone besides bearphant and Lucho had a life relevation that they aren't the type they thought they were?

I try follow my heart but it always leads me to get chocolate chunk over peanut swirl even though I love peanut butter ><


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> This is hard. :th_sur:
> 
> Snow White looks incredibly fake-y happy here


(Is that first gif the IT Crowd? That was a great show.)

It's very confusing. I'm using my friend as a comparison at the moment... I wish I could implant information from that into your head so you could too. It's very helpful. (And that may have sounded slightly terrifying, but let's pretend it wasn't. At least Snow White's strange look is taking away from it.)


----------



## Max

laurie17 said:


> Hm, that's not really the whole Fi thing... I'm not all into morals and 'following my heart'. That's a bit... cheesy. I think it's more a 'compass' that indicates the 'right' way to go with something, but I can ignore it, especially if I need to be practical. I.e. my mum was saying it was great how I could dedicate more time to writing now, but I quickly corrected her, saying I needed to prepare for my JLPT in July. My 'heart' wants to write, because that's my passion, but my 'head' knows I need to do revision, or I may not pass the test.


No! Not this heart and head stuff. Not me at all. I can't see me using Fi as a navigator around this world. I can see myself using Si as my navigation, Ti as my common sense, Ne as my outer world/idea function and Fe as my social/moral function. 

There is no real 'right' and 'wrong' way to do things, imo. There is no 'good' or 'bad'. That is super subjective. Says the one who uses Si.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Yo has anyone besides bearphant and Lucho had a life relevation that they aren't the type they thought they were?


I started as INTJ.  After about 2 weeks realized something is off, I am way too chill, random and don't do internal angst. So then various revelations happened. Also any and all Ni posts made little sense.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I started as INTJ.  After about 2 weeks realized something is off, I am way too chill, random and don't do internal angst. So then various revelations happened. Also any and all Ni posts made little sense.



Even as a teenager, no angst?

Dang girl 

I don't know what posts don't make sense. The only thing that doesn't make sense is hypocycloids to me right now. 

And Macbeth not realizing HIS NONEXISTENT CHILDREN won't be on the throne and killing some other dude's children won't fix that


----------



## owlet

LuchoIsLurking said:


> No! Not this heart and head stuff. Not me at all. I can't see me using Fi as a navigator around this world. I can see myself using Si as my navigation, Ti as my common sense, Ne as my outer world/idea function and Fe as my social/moral function.
> 
> There is no real 'right' and 'wrong' way to do things, imo. There is no 'good' or 'bad'. That is super subjective. Says the one who uses Si.


I think I've phrased this wrongly, because that's precisely what I'm saying Fi is not. I put apostrophes around head and heart and right, because those are just random words with connotations and meanings inferred onto them which don't adequately represent what I'm getting at.

I'm getting tired, so I'll get back to you on it, but Fi isn't the whole 'follow your heart' stuff. Seriously, that's some idealised image from fiction.


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Yo has anyone besides bearphant and Lucho had a life relevation that they aren't the type they thought they were?
> 
> I try follow my heart but it always leads me to get chocolate chunk over peanut swirl even though I love peanut butter ><


I thought I was INTJ also, but have now had the revelation I'm INFP :happy: Just INFP 5w4...


----------



## Max

laurie17 said:


> I think I've phrased this wrongly, because that's precisely what I'm saying Fi is not. I put apostrophes around head and heart and right, because those are just random words with connotations and meanings inferred onto them which don't adequately represent what I'm getting at.
> 
> I'm getting tired, so I'll get back to you on it, but Fi isn't the whole 'follow your heart' stuff. Seriously, that's some idealised image from fiction.


I don't get it. I don't even get Jung half the time. The guy spoke a different language most of the time. And he used technical 1900s speak. XD 

I find theories hard to grasp, a lot of the time. Really hard to grasp, sometimes no matter how hard I read or try to picture things. It goes in one side and out the other. I need it simplified. Lol


----------



## orbit

My view of Fi is that they feel more comfortable on treading on toes for the greater good and just aren't as gushy?

I thought I was INTP, then ENTP, then ESFP, then ESTP! 

Which I'm still not secure about but I'll wait until everyone is secure in their typings to start demanding answers. Like I think I'm ESTP it's just. I don't see thrills and I am not a jock and I hate competition and I love school and I gush emotion which doesn't match the ESTP thing. Like any of angelcat's typing. 

But don't answer to that because I need to consider it more and other people need crap more than I do


----------



## Max

Curiphant said:


> My view of Fi is that they feel more comfortable on treading on toes for the greater good and just aren't as gushy?
> 
> I thought I was INTP, then ENTP, then ESFP, then ESTP!
> 
> Which I'm still not secure about but I'll wait until everyone is secure in their typings to start demanding answers. Like I think I'm ESTP it's just. I don't see thrills and I am not a jock and I hate competition and I love school and I gush emotion which doesn't match the ESTP thing. Like any of angelcat's typing.
> 
> But don't answer to that because I need to consider it more and other people need crap more than I do


I used to think I was an ESTP too, until I discovered Si. And Ne. It all makes a lot of sense now. A lot more sense than it used to.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Even as a teenager, no angst?
> 
> Dang girl
> 
> I don't know what posts don't make sense. The only thing that doesn't make sense is hypocycloids to me right now.
> 
> And Macbeth not realizing HIS NONEXISTENT CHILDREN won't be on the throne and killing some other dude's children won't fix that


As a teen? Sure hella lot of angst though mainly anxiety/panic attacks/depression related since it was my biggest problem and at that point I hid it from others because I though it's schizophrenia... so that was angsty time.

But at 25? Nah, I least angsty person I know. OK, maybe rivaled by my ENTJ cousin. Later one tends to let it stew for too long, though.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I don't know what posts don't make sense. The only thing that doesn't make sense is hypocycloids to me right now.


Posts didn't make sense when I tried to apply it to myself. Especially the ones concerning romance. Because I was like "What? JUST TALK?! Ask directly?!! How is this a problem??!".

Well also anything concerning being organized in any way, shape or form.


----------



## Greyhart

Guys I've found "What's my personality type?" forum theme gif


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I don't get it. I don't even get Jung half the time. The guy spoke a different language most of the time. And he used technical 1900s speak. XD
> 
> I find theories hard to grasp, a lot of the time. Really hard to grasp, sometimes no matter how hard I read or try to picture things. It goes in one side and out the other. I need it simplified. Lol


His is delightfully Ni-Ti. 








Feels like he made his work just by sitting in the evening and writing into the diary without proofreading later. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> My view of Fi is that they feel more comfortable on treading on toes for the greater good and just aren't as gushy?
> 
> I thought I was INTP, then ENTP, then ESFP, then ESTP!
> 
> Which I'm still not secure about but I'll wait until everyone is secure in their typings to start demanding answers. Like I think I'm ESTP it's just. I don't see thrills and I am not a jock and I hate competition and I love school and *I gush emotion* which doesn't match the ESTP thing. Like any of angelcat's typing.
> 
> But don't answer to that because I need to consider it more and other people need crap more than I do


Das Fe thing. Fe is a fun thing. You are either Se or Te but don't seem Ne so not ENFP? Anyway, you seem... clear-headed.


----------



## fair phantom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> No! Not this heart and head stuff. Not me at all. I can't see me using Fi as a navigator around this world. I can see myself using Si as my navigation, Ti as my common sense, Ne as my outer world/idea function and Fe as my social/moral function.
> 
> There is no real 'right' and 'wrong' way to do things, imo. There is no 'good' or 'bad'. That is super subjective. Says the one who uses Si.


Ti= common sense? what?


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> His is delightfully Ni-Ti.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feels like he made his work just by sitting in the evening and writing into the diary without proofreading later. :laughing:


Yes. Delightfully confusing. I swear, I don't understand Ni. I don't even think Ni-Doms do. 

Ti, I kinda do. Introverted Logic. I got this. I can fix this on the spot. Straightforward enough. 

Lol like this?:

Dear Diary,
My wife is an INFJ. She has a black snake feeling slithering in her gut every time she thinks somethibg bad is happening. Interesting. I think she's batshit crazy for not believing in one's vision. 

That kinda stuff.


----------



## Max

fair phantom said:


> Ti= common sense? what?


I said MY COMMON SENSE function. Never equated Ti to common sense in general xD. Sorry if I didn't clarify that like I should have.


----------



## Immolate

Fi is the simplest thing in the world. 

You keep your emotions inside. 
You don't force yourself to laugh at stupid jokes unless you really like the person.
You think small talk is a necessary evil.
You feel better when others are honest with you.
Honesty isn't the same thing as being mean.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> Ti= common sense? what?


:laughing:


Greyhart said:


> Ti is the functions that thinks that aliens visiting to probe our asses it totally logical.
> 
> I like this one
> 
> *Extroverted Thinking: watch me profit from the moon
> 
> Extroverted Feeling: i don’t feel love or affection for humankind. i only illegally torrent the feelings of others
> 
> Extroverted Intuition: sometimes i just want to savour the rapturous caress of chaos
> 
> Extroverted Sensing: i guess its irresponsible that i use all of my money to endorse my ass
> 
> Introverted Thinking: (shoveling handfuls of moss into my mouth) i pretend to be science
> 
> Introverted Feeling: tfw ur trying to relax but u cant help but cry over every single person on earth
> 
> Introverted Intuition: when i wake up i immediately prepare for death
> 
> Introverted Sensing: i have learned not to get kicked by that fucked up baby *
> 
> Learn About Your Fake Personality Online, Cognitive Functions as Shitpost Generator...


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> As for shows, I've mentioned this to @angelcat before and @shinynotshiny has commented on it but I'm not sure if I should watch The Tudors or Merlin next. I'm probably going to watch The Tudors, so I can watch Merlin with my friend, but I haven't actually had the time to start either yet. (Probably because I'm always here, reading, or volunteering, lol.)


I don't find either very good but I guess the Tudors is higher quality I guess? Like, watching The Tudors I feel like I should be enjoying, I'm just not, but Merlin...is just bad.
I have very high, weird standards about television and I get very bored if there's no comedy or attractive men (I know people like Jonathan Rhys-Meyers but he gives me a serial killer feeling and his character doesn't help)


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Dear Diary,
> My wife is an INFJ. *She has a black snake feeling slithering in her gut every time she thinks somethibg bad is happening*. Interesting. I think she's batshit crazy for not believing in one's vision.
> 
> That kinda stuff.


That makes sense tho


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> I don't find either very good but I guess the Tudors is higher quality I guess? Like, watching The Tudors I feel like I should be enjoying, I'm just not, but Merlin...is just bad.
> I have very high, weird standards about television and *I get very bored if there's no comedy or attractive men *(I know people like Jonathan Rhys-Meyers but he gives me a serial killer feeling and his character doesn't help)


I thought you were alittlebear for a few seconds and I was shocked, I tell you, shocked.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes. Delightfully confusing. I swear, I don't understand Ni. I don't even think Ni-Doms do.
> 
> Ti, I kinda do. Introverted Logic. I got this. I can fix this on the spot. Straightforward enough.
> 
> Lol like this?:
> 
> Dear Diary,
> My wife is an INFJ. She has a black snake feeling slithering in her gut every time she thinks somethibg bad is happening. Interesting. I think she's batshit crazy for not believing in one's vision.
> 
> That kinda stuff.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Has anyone read The Once and Future King? It involves a Merlin.  I have it on my Kindle but haven't exactly read it yet.


Oh, it is the best book! I've only read it once but it's just wonderful. A constant source of stress because I know I can never capture the Arthurian feeling the way T.H. White did. It's a classic; a must-read. Read it.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Greyhart,if we're still at instincts(had to go write a long post in my thread lol),I think it's best to go with what your gut tells you,descriptions can't really capture the thing,you know?
I chose SP/SX for myself because SP (or at least what I imagine being image type version of it) is basically my whole life,SX because no way I'm a SX last and SO last because my INTP father is more concerned with social issues,approval and how everyone including him fits inside a group,and of course,I do notice too and care a lot in some ways but I kinda neglect it and don't see a point in _just_ it,it's a bit...I don't know how to explain it lol,but I definitely feel social last


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> I don't find either very good but I guess the Tudors is higher quality I guess? Like, watching The Tudors I feel like I should be enjoying, I'm just not, but Merlin...is just bad.
> I have very high, weird standards about television and I get very bored if there's no comedy or attractive men (*I know people like Jonathan Rhys-Meyers but he gives me a serial killer feeling and his character doesn't help*)


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Morgan Morgana isn't it the same mythological person?


Yes. In English it's usually Morgan though, Morgana's just a variation. Not sure where it came from, it's not really in any of the original sources? Maybe French...I haven't read the French romances so I don't know


----------



## Greyhart

Living dead said:


> @Greyhart,if we're still at instincts(had to go write a long post in my thread lol),I think it's best to go with what your gut tells you,descriptions can't really capture the thing,you know?
> I chose SP/SX for myself because SP (or at least what I imagine being image type version of it) is basically my whole life,SX because no way I'm a SX last and SO last because my INTP father is more concerned with social issues,approval and how everyone including him fits inside a group,and of course,I do notice too and care a lot in some ways but I kinda neglect it and don't see a point in _just_ it,it's a bit...I don't know how to explain it lol,but I definitely feel social last


I think the same. If I am safe/comfortable I can seek for "intensity" in my interest and people. Although I like big companies and socializing this and social issues concern me the least.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

139 notifications, guys. We've been chatting an especial lot today, haven't we.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


>


It's the eyes


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Das Fe thing. Fe is a fun thing. You are either Se or Te but don't seem Ne so not ENFP? Anyway, you seem... clear-headed.


Clear-headed is a glorious description of her. She is very clear-headed, at least she typically appears so.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> I don't find either very good but I guess the Tudors is higher quality I guess? Like, watching The Tudors I feel like I should be enjoying, I'm just not, but Merlin...is just bad.
> I have very high, weird standards about television and I get very bored if there's no comedy or attractive men (I know people like Jonathan Rhys-Meyers but he gives me a serial killer feeling and his character doesn't help)


Yeah, I'm probably going to watch The Tudors. I love that history stuff and I've been vaguely interested in the Tudor family for a while, so I imagine I will quite enjoy it.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Yeah, I'm probably going to watch The Tudors. I love that history stuff and I've been vaguely interested in the Tudor family for a while, so I imagine I will quite enjoy it.


When I'm done rewatching every second of Arrested Development I want to switch to some period drama soap opera thingie. Reign or the Borgias perhaps. Any opinions?


----------



## Psychopomp

@_Greyhart_ - Maybe I am not the crazy one... MAYBE EVERYONE ELSE IS THE CRAZY ONE! Yes, yes, that's it. I knew it all along. 



alittlebear said:


> Thank you for your response. I'm still a but confused though, to be honest. While perhaps my discussion of The Great Gatsby was Ne, as you interpret my talking about it, I wonder if it outweighs the other information I have given on this thread that others have at times unanimously agreed to be "Ni".
> 
> I can't speak for myself and say that I fit Jung's description of Ni. It seems that no one sees those qualities in me. @Curiphant and I have talked, and she sees me as some of those things. She sees several of my connections incomprehensible. I actually have fun into my being "incomprehensible" quite a bit. When I was at the art muesem with my ISFJ friend, I saw what was in the painting but could only describe it with a single word. When I tried to explain it, I just confused both my friend and sister. That same friend has given up trying to understand me. While I think my path to my future is coherent, and as my best friend I have tried to explain of to her several times, she's told me that she's just "given up trying to understand it". I also will say things like "I'm wearing an Easter egg" or similar phrases where I give a direct object to another object, and this she says "Only you could say that." She does not understand these connections, although she has grown to tolerate them.
> 
> I also wonder about the description of my mind that I posted a few pages ago. I will try to quote it. I'm especially curious about that not to be stubborn but because five people responded that it seemed "Ni" and @angelcat said she could not relate to it. It could be that I have figured out my mind process and everyone does that, and I can see how what I did could be Si/Ti, but I am still interested in how you would justify it.
> 
> I also wonder about my soul habit. I don't even see people as physical persons... and honestly, I never have. I experience their souls, which to me are indescribable. I see them - metaphorically - but when I try to describe the the on,y words I can use are literally the flashes of indescribable internal images you associate with Ni. I have trouble justifying this with Si. Not because Si cannot see past the physical body, but because my experience of souls is so closely resemblant of Ni as you have defined it and you have yet to counter this point towards Si.
> 
> I also wanted to add that when I told my friend about my Shakespeare experiences of the plays, she was a bit creeped out. I tried to explain, but she just shook her head, not understanding. I can articulate myself well here - and as someone with strong Fe, I have certainly learned how to be coherent, especially when I can type out my words - but in real life and in the time that Curi has known me, I have not always been so easily spoken with.
> 
> I promise, I am not trying to be stubborn. For the past few days I have been pondering ISFJ, and I can very much accept it... except for a few lingering questions that don't fit, such as these mentioned here. And, to be completely honest about my understanding of these things, I'm not going to be able to see myself as ISFJ until these aspects of me are patted into Si/Ne. I'm looking for answers in other places for these questions, and I do still intend to read Jung before I know for certain, but clarification on how you see these things as Si would be of great help to me.


For the record, I am quite open to the possibility that you are, in fact, an Ni type. You don't leave me with that impression, and I perceive you as being a Sensor and probably an Si, but that is just my perception. If I have any hope of convincing you of that, it must certainly be done on its own merit. So, since we have defined Ni - or attempted to - it now seems that we must take the time to define Si. 

First, lets look at how Jung described Si:


* *






Jung said:


> Sensation
> 
> Sensation, which in obedience to its whole nature is concerned with the object and the objective stimulus, also undergoes a considerable modification in the introverted attitude. It, too, has a subjective factor, for beside the object sensed there stands a sensing subject, who contributes his subjective disposition to the objective stimulus. In the introverted attitude sensation is definitely based upon the subjective portion of perception. What is meant by this finds its best illustration in the reproduction of objects in art. When, for instance, several painters undertake to paint one and the same landscape, with a sincere attempt to reproduce it faithfully, each painting will none the less differ from the rest, not merely by virtue of a more or less developed ability, but chiefly because of a different vision; there will even appear in some of the paintings a decided psychic variation, both in general mood and in treatment of colour and form. Such qualities betray a more or less influential cooperation of the subjective factor. The subjective factor of sensation is essentially the same as in the other functions already spoken of. It is an unconscious disposition, which alters the sense-perception at its very source, thus depriving it of the character of a purely objective influence. In this case, sensation is related primarily to the subject, and only secondarily to the object. How extraordinarily strong the subjective factor can be is shown most clearly in art. The ascendancy of the subjective factor occasionally achieves a complete suppression of the mere influence of the object; but none the less sensation remains sensation, although it has come to be a perception of the subjective factor, and the effect of the object has sunk to the level of a mere stimulant. Introverted sensation develops in accordance with this subjective direction. A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus. Subjective perception differs remarkably from the objective. It is either not found at all in the object, or, at most, merely suggested by it; it can, however, be similar to the sensation of other men, although not immediately derived from the objective behaviour of things. It does not impress one as a mere product of consciousness—it is too genuine for that. But it makes a definite psychic impression, since elements of a higher psychic order are perceptible to it. This order, however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious, with mythological images, with primal possibilities of ideas. The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the subjective factor has some meaning. **To another, a reproduced subjective impression seems to suffer from the defect of possessing insufficient similarity with the object**; it seems, therefore, to have failed in its purpose. Subjective sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them. Such a consciousness would see the becoming and the passing of things beside their present and momentary existence, and not only that, but at the same time it would also see that Other, which was before their becoming and will be after their passing hence. To this consciousness the present moment is improbable. This is, of course, only a simile, of which, however, I had need to give some sort of illustration of the peculiar nature of introverted sensation. Introverted sensation conveys an image whose effect is not so much to reproduce the object as to throw over it a wrapping whose lustre is derived from age-old subjective experience and the still unborn future event. Thus, mere sense impression develops into the depth of the meaningful, while extraverted sensation seizes only the momentary and manifest existence of things.
> 
> The Introverted Sensation Type
> 
> The priority of introverted sensation produces a definite type, which is characterized by certain peculiarities. It is an irrational type, inasmuch as its selection among occurrences is not primarily rational, but is guided rather by what just happens. Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus. Obviously, therefore, no sort of proportional relation exists between object and sensation, but something that is apparently quite irregular and arbitrary judging from without, therefore, it is practically impossible to foretell what will make an impression and what will not. If there were present a capacity and readiness for expression in any way commensurate with the strength of sensation, the irrationality of this type would be extremely evident. This is the case, for instance, when the individual is a creative artist. But, since this is the exception, it usually happens that the characteristic introverted difficulty of expression also conceals his irrationality. On the contrary, he may actually stand out by the very calmness and passivity of his demeanour, or by his rational self-control. This peculiarity, which often leads the superficial judgment astray, is really due to his unrelatedness to objects. Normally the object is not consciously depreciated in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it, because it is immediately replaced by a subjective reaction, which is no longer related to the reality of the object. This, of course, has the same effect as a depreciation of the object. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all; or why objects in general should have any right to existence, since everything essential happens without the object. This doubt may be justified in extreme cases, though not in the normal, since the objective stimulus is indispensable to his sensation, only it produces something different from what was to be surmised from the external state of affairs. Considered from without, it looks as though the effect of the object did not obtrude itself upon the subject. This impression is so far correct inasmuch as a subjective content does, in fact, intervene from the unconscious, thus snatching away the effect of the object. This intervention may be so abrupt that the individual appears to shield himself directly from any possible influence of the object. In any aggravated or well-marked case, such a protective guard is also actually present. Even with only a slight reinforcement of the unconscious, the subjective constituent of sensation becomes so alive that it almost completely obscures the objective influence. The results of this are, on the one hand, a feeling of complete depreciation on the part of the object, and, on the other, an illusory conception of reality on the part of the subject, which in morbid cases may even reach the point of a complete inability to discriminate between the real object and the subjective perception. Although so vital a distinction vanishes completely only in a practically psychotic state, yet long before that point is reached subjective perception may influence thought, feeling, and action to an extreme degree, in spite of the fact that the object is clearly seen in its fullest reality. Whenever the objective influence does succeed in forcing its way into the subject—as the result of particular circumstances of special intensity, or because of a more perfect analogy with the unconscious image—even the normal example of this type is induced to act in accordance with his unconscious model. Such action has an illusory quality in relation to objective reality, and therefore has a very odd and strange character. It instantly reveals the anti-real subjectivity of the type, But, where the influence of the object does not entirely succeed, it encounters a benevolent neutrality, disclosing little sympathy, yet constantly striving to reassure and adjust. The too-low is raised a little, the too-high is made a little lower; the enthusiastic is damped, the extravagant restrained; and the unusual brought within the 'correct' formula: all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds. Thus, this type becomes an affliction to his circle, just in so far as his entire harmlessness is no longer above suspicion. But, if the latter should be the case, the individual readily becomes a victim to the aggressiveness and ambitions of others. Such men allow themselves to be abused, for which they usually take vengeance at the most unsuitable occasions with redoubled stubbornness and resistance. When there exists no capacity for artistic expression, all impressions sink into the inner depths, whence they hold consciousness under a spell, removing any possibility it might have had of mastering the fascinating impression by means of conscious expression. Relatively speaking, this type has only archaic possibilities of expression for the disposal of his impressions; thought and feeling are relatively unconscious, and, in so far as they have a certain consciousness, they only serve in the necessary, banal, everyday expressions. Hence as conscious functions, they are wholly unfitted to give any adequate rendering of the subjective perceptions. This type, therefore, is uncommonly inaccessible to an objective understanding and he fares no better in the understanding of himself.
> Above all, his development estranges him from the reality of the object, handing him over to his subjective perceptions, which orientate his consciousness in accordance with an archaic reality, although his deficiency in comparative judgment keeps him wholly unaware of this fact. Actually he moves in a mythological world, where men animals, railways, houses, rivers, and mountains appear partly as benevolent deities and partly as malevolent demons. That thus they, appear to him never enters his mind, although their effect upon his judgments and acts can bear no other interpretation. He judges and acts as though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality. If his tendency is to reason objectively, he will sense this difference as morbid; but if, on the other hand, he remains faithful to his irrationality, and is prepared to grant his sensation reality value, the objective world will appear a mere make-belief and a comedy. Only in extreme cases, however, is this dilemma reached. As a rule, the individual acquiesces in his isolation and in the banality of the reality, which, however, he unconsciously treats archaically.
> His unconscious is distinguished chiefly by the repression of intuition, which thereby acquires an extraverted and archaic character. Whereas true extraverted intuition has a characteristic resourcefulness, and a 'good nose' for every possibility in objective reality, this archaic, extraverted intuition has an amazing flair for every ambiguous, gloomy, dirty, and dangerous possibility in the background of reality. In the presence of this intuition the real and conscious intention of the object has no significance; it will peer behind every possible archaic antecedent of such an intention. It possesses, therefore, something dangerous, something actually undermining, which often stands in most vivid contrast to the gentle benevolence of consciousness. So long as the individual is not too aloof from the object, the unconscious intuition effects a wholesome compensation to the rather fantastic and over credulous attitude of consciousness. But as soon as the unconscious becomes antagonistic to consciousness, such intuitions come to the surface and expand their nefarious influence: they force themselves compellingly upon the individual, releasing compulsive ideas about objects of the most perverse kind. The neurosis arising from this sequence of events is usually a compulsion neurosis, in which the hysterical characters recede and are obscured by symptoms of exhaustion.





So, in a nutshell, Si is:

1) Perceives objects through an irrational subjective and impressionistic lens, resulting in myriad private peculiarities in such perceptions.
2) Depreciates objects, which become superfluous. Everything essential happens without them... though they are ultimately the source of these detached impressions.
3) Concerned with presuppositions, mythological images, and primal possibilities of ideas.
4) Objects express private meaning and significance that is typically relatable only to the subject (the self). 
5) This subjective vision creates a sort of private 'psychic mirror-world' - and a sort of timelessness, in which the present moment is almost improbable.
6) And, if you ask me, the ultimate Si motto or tag-line:


> Introverted sensation conveys an image whose effect is not so much to reproduce the object as to throw over it a wrapping whose lustre is derived from age-old subjective experience and the still unborn future event. Thus, mere sense impression develops into the depth of the meaningful, while extraverted sensation seizes only the momentary and manifest existence of things.


So, I'll give an example of Si that I think is unparalleled. This is Don Henley. He is a pretty famous songwriter, and one of my personal favorites. This is MAD Si. Face-punch Si. I've typed him INFP in the past, but I have since acquiesced that he must be an Si-dom, and thus an ISTJ. He shows a much greater strength of Te than Fi, in the end. I've had extensive debates about this guy with my own offline group of Typology enthusiasts, which I am sure will rage on... but it has long since broken down to ISTJ or INFP. Either way, he is a great example of Si. 






Now, I focus on Don Henley because he is pretty much unquestionably a very strong Si as Jung would consider it - strongly arguable as a dominant one. Yet, he wrote Hotel California:






It would not be our first thought to think of this song as Si... but, after reading Jung one realizes that Si is exactly what it is. Primordial images, a mythological mirror-world.... a timelessness. The eyes of a million-year old entity. Intuition either affecting a wholesome compensation, or turning dark and foreboding. Both happen in that song. Also, he wrote Boys of Summer - his other really famous song - which is the most stereotypical MBTI-friendly Si song ever. That guy is very very very Si. 

In another vein you have psychics and astrologers as Si types. This is where Ne influence on Si can appear to be Ni... Si providing the 'images' and Ne thirst for possibility feeding into the fantastical and over-credulous attitude of consciousness. The witch doctor and palm reader are not Ni archetypes, but Si ones, I'd argue. 

Next, in terms of archetype, you have the fantasy novelist. These seem to be, in the majority, Si types of one sort or another. I think that the vast majority of those who habitually consume this material, Si types seem to dominate. Of those who write it, I see a profound leaning toward either Si-dom or Si-tertiary people. The spectrum here runs from Fifty Shades of Grey, to Twilight, to Harry Potter - all of which were written, I think, by Si-doms. 

In the case of JK Rowling, who self-types INFJ by way of MBTI (rightly so), we see a very wholesome compensation from Ne, but the novel and her persona as a whole, is terrifically Si. 

I really love and find intensely useful what Jung wrote about both Si and Ni together. It is interesting to see what he perceived, though implicitly, to be their common traits:


* *






> Recapitulation of Introverted Irrational Types
> 
> The two types just depicted are almost inaccessible to external judgment. Because they are introverted and have in consequence a somewhat meagre capacity or willingness for expression, they offer but a frail handle for a telling criticism. Since their main activity is directed within, nothing is outwardly visible but reserve, secretiveness, lack of sympathy, or uncertainty, and an apparently groundless perplexity. When anything does come to the surface, it usually consists in indirect manifestations of inferior and relatively unconscious functions. Manifestations of such a nature naturally excite a certain environmental prejudice against these types. Accordingly they are mostly underestimated, or at least misunderstood. To the same degree as they fail to understand themselves—because they very largely lack judgment—they are also powerless to understand why they are so constantly undervalued by public opinion. They cannot see that their outward-going expression is, as a matter of fact, also of an inferior character. Their vision is enchanted by the abundance of subjective events. What happens there is so captivating, and of such inexhaustible attraction, that they do not appreciate the fact that their habitual communications to their circle express very, little of that real experience in which they themselves are, as it were, caught up. The fragmentary and, as a rule, quite episodic character of their communications make too great a demand upon the understanding and good will of their circle; furthermore, their mode of expression lacks that flowing warmth to the object which alone can have convincing force. On the contrary, these types show very often a brusque, repelling demeanour towards the outer world, although of this they are quite unaware, and have not the least intention of showing it. We shall form a fairer judgment of such men and grant them a greater indulgence, when we begin to realize how hard it is to translate into intelligible language what is perceived within. Yet this indulgence must not be so liberal as to exempt them altogether from the necessity of such expression. This could be only detrimental for such types. Fate itself prepares for them, perhaps even more than for other men, overwhelming external difficulties, which have a very sobering effect upon the intoxication of the inner vision. But frequently only an intense personal need can wring from them a human expression.
> From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, such types are indeed the most fruitless of men. But, viewed from a higher standpoint, such men are living evidence of the fact that this rich and varied world with its overflowing and intoxicating life is not purely external, but also exists within. These types are admittedly one sided demonstrations of Nature, but they are an educational experience for the man who refuses to be blinded by the intellectual mode of the day. In their own way, men with such an attitude are educators and promoters of culture. Their life teaches more than their words. From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest fault, viz. their incommunicability, we may understand one of the greatest errors of our civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate overprizing of instruction by means of word and method. A child certainly allows himself to be impressed by the grand talk of its parents. But is it really imagined that the child is thereby educated? Actually it is the parents' lives that educate the child—what they add thereto by word and gesture at best serves only to confuse him. The same holds good for the teacher. But we have such a belief in method that, if only the method be good, the practice of it seems to hallow the teacher. An inferior man is never. a good teacher. But he can conceal his injurious inferiority, which secretly poisons the pupil, behind an excellent method or, an equally brilliant intellectual capacity. Naturally the pupil of riper years desires nothing better than the knowledge of useful methods, because he is already defeated by the general attitude, which believes in the victorious method. He has already learnt that the emptiest head, correctly echoing a method, is the best pupil. His whole environment not only urges but exemplifies the doctrine that all success and happiness are external, and that only the right method is needed to attain the haven of one's desires. Or is the life of his religious instructor likely to demonstrate that happiness which radiates from the treasure of the inner vision? The irrational introverted types are certainly no instructors of a more complete humanity. They lack reason and the ethics of reason, but their lives teach the other possibility, in which our civilization is so deplorably wanting.





So, by way of justaposition - you have the intensely Si Mother Teresa, and the intensely Ni Gandhi. Which was more in touch with objective reality? No one who knows anything about them would say Mother Teresa, as she was wildly and damningly out of sync with reality... gripped by her private mythological world and mirror-reality. 


This doesn't tell us anything definitive about YOUR type @_alittlebear_, but hopefully makes whatever decision you make about yourself more robust and informed.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Idk what you're saying I take Troilus and Crssida as _the_ most accurate depiction of Greek so accurate. Roman names for deities and all.
> 
> But _my goodness_ Fair Phantom you did not tell me you knew of Reign! Let me absorb you into my invisible Reign communication group.


NO GROUPIES

You are going to make someone feel left out :,c


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I used to hate Kenna but I love her now (unless she regresses in the final episodes of the most recent season, I haven't watched them yet).


What's the latest stupid thing she's done and I'll tell you...

I liked her with the kid at the end of season one. And I feel bad for the girl. But yeah, Lola is my absolute favorite. (Even above Mary and Francis.) (Which is saying a lot because I love them both individually and they taught me what the term "OTP" feels like.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> NO GROUPIES
> 
> You are going to make someone feel left out :,c


Omg I never thought that would come back to haunt me. 

Ill name us The Superior Reign Watching Group

(Superiorz for short)


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I used to hate Kenna but I love her now (unless she regresses in the final episodes of the most recent season, I haven't watched them yet).


Get out the tilesssss!!!


----------



## fair phantom

greyhart said:


> i tend to start "eh, some person" and then their personality rolls in and i can go to "ugh, no" or "yes yesyess"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daredevil makes me want to punch a wall because i was like "he doesn't look like matt at all _meh weh_" and then 3 episodes in i'm just done in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goddamn actor is way too fucking adorbs too. Ugh.


same. Ugh. Stop being so cute, charlie cox.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Omg I never thought that would come back to haunt me.
> 
> Ill name us The Superior Reign Watching Group
> 
> (Superiorz for short)



Superior Ultimate Purposeful Excellent Reign Zealots
Superz


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I'm a sixteen year old girl. XP I was more clear headed when I was twelve than I am now. But you're probably right ^^ thank you.
> Fe is a fun thing? Did I mention fun? Oh wait no I see gushing emotion. Psh. I gush everything. I literally have no sense of filter unless it's something offensive. I tend to know what I believe before I know it, but no idea what I'm feeling until I'm yelling at someone that they can't tell me what I believe. (happened yesterday yay. Some punk told me I didn't like something)
> I keep on seeing my typos and how I forget letters and words and I'm sorry >< it's honestly embarrassing
> 
> Crap crap I'm being drawn into my type but fine.
> 
> It amuses me when people are like I WANT TO WORK WITH OTHERS ON A SCHOOL PROJECT (not really I just hit caps lock unconconsciously) and they have Fe
> 
> And I'm like no. If I have no idea what's going on I'll happily work with other people but I prefer working solo and asking people about their progress. But at the same time I can't resist keeping my mouth shut (if you haven't notice oh my gosh). I like chatting with people even though some days I walk to school and I darkly think, "I hate people and I will refuse to talk to them today." The only people I avoid are the people who try to control me or others. Or randomly blame me or kick my backpack (lol).


It's fun because you don't bottle up that stuff and later on you can use your direct suaveness to get laid a lot











> I don't care about how much information is given to me. I'll vaguely plan things and I'll eventually realize I have to do something about it or my mother will go berserk, so I'll do something about it. I randomly signed up for Stat this year for no reason and the only research I did about it was whether or not tennis would affect it. But then again, I also kind of randomly signed up for the hardest math course our school has to offer (I just felt like it and my friends were like DO IT) and I did go a little bit overboard in preparing for it by getting everyone's advice on how to do well in it. It changes with my mood. ewe.
> 
> Anyway, I am a hypocrite. But on the upside, I'm a forgivable hypocrite.


Yeeey, ExxP temperaments! Although I might be wrong and all FPs actually like so resemblance of schedule. In which case, Yeeeeey ExTP temperaments!

As I said, although Se descriptions tend to overemphasize "SPORTS&ACTION YEAAAH" it's a perception of the world not "muscle drive".


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I tend to start "Eh, some person" and then their personality rolls in and I can go to "ugh, no" or "YES YESYESS"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daredevil makes me want to punch a wall because I was like "He doesn't look like Matt at all _meh weh_" and then 3 episodes in I'm just done in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goddamn actor is way too fucking adorbs too. UGH.
> 
> 
> I can't get my friends to watch it. Dx The judge and discard it despite me swearing that it's hilarious.
> 
> 
> "Clear" is how I see my Se dom friends. Like when I am around my ESFP friend I we can watch the same scenery and with him there's the feeling that he "absorbs" it. Like when he looks at the beautiful view and I just see that he sees it crystal clear, better than I do in any glasses.


So I am Se Dom?

Well I guess being an ESTP is useless because I don't relate to any of the description soo. Pft. At least I now my functions


----------



## Immolate

????????




























I can't find the one where he's laughing with Foggy about being avocados, oh well.

Also, arkigos, finally.


----------



## Dangerose

So I can't find it to quote, but @tine asked me many pages back how I deal with someone being sad.

The other day I was at work (I help a woman with Alzheimer's) and she started talking about her husband's death and how just like that her perfect marriage was over. It was very affecting.

Externally: I was trying not to cry, but show sympathy. I wanted to encourage her to talk about it because she doesn't open up about these things and I feel it is good for her to express these things, so I was asking little questions. I also found myself not knowing what to say and repeating little platitudes but I always try to keep that at the minimum. I tried to end the conversation on a note of appreciating the good the man had done and some stuff about her children and grandchildren, but I knew realistically that nothing I was going to say was going to make her feel better about her husband's death and I thought the best thing was to let her express these emotions and reflections out loud and maybe work through it a little, so I considered my presence there as mostly an instrument for her expression

Internally: I was very affected by the pathos of what she was saying and also a little impressed at the poetry in it. I was reflecting on how she was feeling, imagining her life and honestly a little grateful for the clearer glimpse into her life. I was also feeling sad _for myself_ (and obviously feeling very selfish about that as well), because I'm not married and even if I do get married I could be widowed, and I was thinking about how in stories it usually ends with the marriage and you forget that those things end, I was imagining my favorite fictional characters at the end of their lives. I was feeling connected to this woman, and feeling frustrated and sad about the way that even though I felt love for her, not being related to her or close enough to her to tell her this, and then I was thinking a. About doctors/caregivers who work in senior homes, and if they feel a similar way, and b. About how many people at the end of their life end up in an institution or place where the people around them aren't close to them, and no one tells them they love them, and I started to write a song in my head with a chorus with the line "No one can say I love you anymore" and I explored the options with this a bit, but primarily my focus was on feeling sad for her.

It's funny, not sure if relevant, but a few weeks ago I freaked out about something maybe work-related, and I was talking to my mother trying to figure out what was wrong, and at some point I was talking about work and how I kind-of felt like the bad guy at my job, and I started crying and talking about some of the things I was thinking about it, and she suddenly asked me, "Does your job make you sad?" and I said no, but then I realized that _yes_, my job does make me sad. I hadn't realized it, I hadn't even been feeling invested in my job at all, and it seems really obvious that working with an Alzheimer's patient would make me sad, but I hadn't even noticed it until my mother pointed it out.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> It's fun because you don't bottle up that stuff and later on you can use your direct suaveness to get laid a lot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeeey, ExxP temperaments! Although I might be wrong and all FPs actually like so resemblance of schedule. In which case, Yeeeeey ExTP temperaments!
> 
> As I said, although Se descriptions tend to overemphasize "SPORTS&ACTION YEAAAH" it's a perception of the world not "muscle drive".


Alright thanks

I'm not going to get laid tho D8


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> What's the latest stupid thing she's done and I'll tell you...
> 
> I liked her with the kid at the end of season one. And I feel bad for the girl. But yeah, Lola is my absolute favorite. (Even above Mary and Francis.) (Which is saying a lot because I love them both individually and they taught me what the term "OTP" feels like.)


well stupid won't be enough.  Once I start to like a person they have to do something really bad or act awful for a consistent period of time to get me to stop liking them. I don't know which girl is my favourite. I love them all. I wish there were better guys tbh. 

Sometimes I'm like yay francis! but he has been ON NOTICE since 
* *




the whole religious persecution deal. NOT OKAY WITH ME. Especially since he did that annoying not talking-to-his-so-to-protect-her bs.


 He has won back some goodwill, but I was very angry with him and find it hard to trust him now.


----------



## orbit

I kind of want to create a topic called "Se-dom through the ages."

"This kingdom has been traditionally upheld for centuries and I want to see if I've inherited it's will!"

Because that is so terribly stereotypical Si.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> @Oswin _Reign_ can be great fun. The trick with _Reign_ is you must treat it kind of like fanfiction. It depicts history about as accurately as Shakespeare does. And the clothes: often gorgeous, sometimes weird,_ never historically-accurate_. I don't know if that is a deal-breaker for you or not, but don't say I didn't warn you!


I guess I'll have to watch it and figure out if it will bother me or not) Thanks for the warning)


----------



## 68097

Shame some really excellent, insightful posts are buried in 300+ pages of nonsense.

*looks up, HOLY CRAP THE ORIGINAL ELIZABETH BENNET IS SUPER HOT ON 'THE BLACKLIST'; WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME JENNIFER EHLE GUEST STARRED?*

Uh, where was I?

Oh yeah. That aside:



Oswin said:


> I don't find either very good but I guess the Tudors is higher quality I guess? Like, watching The Tudors I feel like I should be enjoying, I'm just not, but Merlin...is just bad.
> I have very high, weird standards about television and I get very bored if there's no comedy or attractive men (I know people like Jonathan Rhys-Meyers but he gives me a serial killer feeling and his character doesn't help)


"The Tudors" has one of the best portrayals ever of Katharine of Aragon, in terms of authenticity to the real person -- it paints her not as an old, worn out queen tossed aside, but as the intelligent, emotional, compassionate, stubborn woman that she actually was. Sadly, Michael Hirst uses this to counter-balance the old, biased argument that Anne Boleyn was a scheming whore, so ... my love/hate for it falls somewhere in the middle. For Katharine of Aragon and Mary Tudor, that series is kick-ass. (And Sir Thomas More. Jeremy Northam is magnificent in that role.) For everyone else -- ehhh, it's decent. Smutty, but good characterization. 

JRM is ... ugh. Blech. No. 

"Merlin" is a cheese fest. It's juvenile and somewhat lame, but Merlin is SO adorkable that ... I own it. I do watch it. Later seasons are better. It just ... grew on me. So much.
@Oswin: Reign or The Borgias. Both are historically inaccurate and smutty. Both got me hooked quickly. I actually re-watched 2 seasons of "The Borgias" this weekend while finishing my Margaery Tryrell cosplay. Funnily enough, "The Borgias" is nowhere near as debauched as the real Borgia family, even WITH the eventual incest on the show (never happened in real life, btw). Rodrigo Borgia was ... depraved, sexually. Not that surprising considering the rampant immorality in the Catholic Church at the time, but ... there's something surreal and freakish about watching a POPE plot people's murders and sex up beautiful women. 

Still. It's faux-history, and it's pretty (all of the above mentioned shows, and more), so ... I get hooked. Inevitably.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> ????????
> 
> [snip]
> 
> *I can't find the one where he's laughing with Foggy about being avocados, oh well.*
> 
> Also, arkigos, finally.


-1-
-2-



























this is horrible


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@arkigos I have to do something real quick, and I plan on responding further, but thank you so much for the additional information (especially the Jung quotes). That's very much the type of stuff I've been looking for, and it helps me greatly to be provided it like that. ^^


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> -1-
> -2-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is horrible


----------



## Greyhart

arkigos said:


> @_Greyhart_ - Maybe I am not the crazy one... MAYBE EVERYONE ELSE IS THE CRAZY ONE! Yes, yes, that's it. I knew it all along.


It's also possible we are all just a figments of your imagination. Or bots written to entertain you.



> 1) Perceives objects through an irrational subjective and impressionistic lens, resulting in myriad private peculiarities in such perceptions.
> 2) Depreciates objects, which become superfluous. Everything essential happens without them... though they are ultimately the source of these detached impressions.
> 3) Concerned with presuppositions, mythological images, and primal possibilities of ideas.
> 4) Objects express private meaning and significance that is typically relatable only to the subject (the self).
> 5) This subjective vision creates a sort of private 'psychic mirror-world' - and a sort of timelessness, in which the present moment is almost improbable.
> 6) And, if you ask me, the ultimate Si motto or tag-line


Living with high Pi is terrifying. :th_woot:



>


Beginign of the video. "If there's any divinity it's here". Isn't that a swampy areas where alligators are?

His Si though? I totally feel it. Why? I can guess the origins. Same for the song. It has actual objects in it.



> Next, in terms of archetype, you have the fantasy novelist. These seem to be, in the majority, Si types of one sort or another. I think that the vast majority of those who habitually consume this material, Si types seem to dominate. Of those who write it, I see a profound leaning toward either Si-dom or Si-tertiary people. The spectrum here runs from Fifty Shades of Grey, to Twilight, to Harry Potter - all of which were written, I think, by Si-doms.
> 
> In the case of JK Rowling, who self-types INFJ by way of MBTI (rightly so), we see a very wholesome compensation from Ne, but the novel and her persona as a whole, is terrifically Si.


Depends. Tolkien? IMO ISTJ. But then there's the Narnia dude whose name is hard to spell I constantly forget it? Imo Ni dom. Different kinds of "fantasy".
@Oswin oh no, you brought soul into the thread. I feel my heart strings being tagged. :crying::crying:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> At least I have an excuse to post this


Dat Ass.

But really, when I grow up, I wanna be some sort of badass, but positive role model. You know? Positive role models can be cool people too. They don't have to be characterless do gooders all the time. They can have a character and an edge also. 

(Dunno where that came from, nor do I care).


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Too dark outside no lights at all. Trying to google on Russian found this shit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what the fuc no


Why are Russian things so much scarier







@shinynotshiny, I now have no choice but to read all your posts in Ron Swanson's voice
No idea about your Si/lack thereof though. sorry(


----------



## Greyhart

Found my lil fluffy raptor shit. http://www.ornithologist.ru/golosa/accipitriformes/p.apivorus.mp3
European honey buzzard
"It is a specialist feeder, living mainly on the larvae and nests of wasps and hornets"
*screaming internally*


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> Why are Russian things so much scarier
> View attachment 332433
> 
> 
> @shinynotshiny, I now have no choice but to read all your posts in Ron Swanson's voice
> No idea about your Si/lack thereof though. sorry(


Russian cover feels like spoiler. Now u kno there's a creepy bat involved. Unless it's a completely unrelated creepy bat in which case well done.


----------



## AdInfinitum

If I fall asleep before answering your question, tag me if you want some ideas and I will answer when I wake up. 4 am is ticking on my nose.


----------



## Immolate

NobleRaven said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ What do you want to know about Si? How it manifests in relation to Ni?


Here's my dilemma, NobleRaven. I'm positive I'm IxTJ, and I'd say Te and Fi are the functions I see the most in my personality. They are the most obvious when you interact with me. My Ne and Se are crumbs here and there, but I know Se is my weakest function of all. I've started a few typing threads but they've ended without clarity. 

I've been typed INFP, ISTJ, INTJ, and once ISTP. I can't say I relate to Si the way it's been described here (specifically in the ISTJ forum) but I know Si suffers from a lot of stereotypes and bias. I hesitate to call myself an Ni-dom even though I relate to Ni more than Si because some people treat Ni like some sort of divine gift. A problem I keep running into is that I keep seeing Si described in terms of its relationship to Fe rather than Te. The same can be said about Ni.


----------



## Max

What type do you think The Joker is? Is he ENTP or ESTP? Yes, I know he's "screwed up", but which one?:



* *






















_
























-



































(Look. I made The Joker talk to himself. See what boredom does, Kids?)


----------



## Greyhart

@shinynotshiny poor you and your IxTJ existence.  IDK I think @angelcat 's INTJ friend is kind of extreme Ni. I think there's many paced and more assimilated Ne doms than I am*. *shrug*
@LuchoIsLurking in most cases including Nolan's ENTP*.


> Extroverted Intuition: sometimes i just want to savour the rapturous caress of chaos


* - Ha! Yeah, I could be Joker but I am less crazy than that. So different gradations.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> @shinynotshiny poor you and your IxTJ existence.  IDK I think @angelcat 's INTJ friend is kind of extreme Ni. I think there's many paced and more assimilated Ne doms than I am. *shrug*
> @LuchoIsLurking in most cases including Nolan's ENTP.


Thanks. A very crazy, messed up ENTP. So I know what to expect when you go crazy then? ;D Jk. I think The Joker is too extreme of an example of an ENTP gone wrong. I don't think anyone is capable of causing that much chaos irl. Even extreme psychos.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Okay, let's try for half an hour or more of seriousness (except for Greyhart, of course).
> 
> People of PerC, help me understand my Si if I have it. This will help alittlebear's Si/Ni current crisis.


Crisis? I thought I had decided I was ENFJ again now (although I haven't changed back yet because I am a little on the borderline, currently discussing it privately).


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Thanks. A very crazy, messed up ENTP. So I know what to expect when you go crazy then? ;D Jk. I think The Joker is too extreme of an example of an ENTP gone wrong. I don't think anyone is capable of causing that much chaos irl. Even extreme psychos.


Movie ain't that bad as comics. Especially Injustice series. Where he basically wiped out Metropolis. With the nuke. Using Supes.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Here's my dilemma, NobleRaven. I'm positive I'm IxTJ, and I'd say Te and Fi are the functions I see the most in my personality. They are the most obvious when you interact with me. My Ne and Se are crumbs here and there, but I know Se is my weakest function of all. I've started a few typing threads but they've ended without clarity.
> 
> I've been typed INFP, ISTJ, INTJ, and once ISTP. I can't say I relate to Si the way it's been described here (specifically in the ISTJ forum) but I know Si suffers from a lot of stereotypes and bias. I hesitate to call myself an Ni-dom even though I relate to Ni more than Si because some people treat Ni like some sort of divine gift. A problem I keep running into is that I keep seeing Si described in terms of its relationship to Fe rather than Te. The same can be said about Ni.


This is very relatable ^^


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Movie ain't that bad as comics. Especially Injustice series. Where he basically wiped out Metropolis. With the nuke. Using Supes.


Sounds like someone was having a bad day...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> At least I have an excuse to post this


Don't do that to Steve


----------



## Greyhart

I feel the need to start doubting my type again out solidarity.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Crisis? I thought I had decided I was ENFJ again now (although I haven't changed back yet because I am a little on the borderline, currently discussing it privately).


You can't have private discussions, alittlebear.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Don't do that to Steve


Honor his booty? Objectify him?


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@shinynotshiny I've seen some extreme cases of Ni doms in the forum, and to be honest I get their ideas but personally wouldn't like to be so unbalanced. I think that being so reality detached distorts visions so hardcore that they can't be applied in reality. I type as ILI-Te in socionics as I've noticed that I'm more in touch with Te and Se than other INTJs, and I wouldn't be surprised that studying science forced me to rely more on those functions, as I need to prove stuff with facts. Indeed an ESFP friend mentioned that I'm more Se friendly than other Ni doms lol


----------



## ae1905

5000, anyone?

(and thanks to everyone who contributed and made it possible for me to stay inside!!)


----------



## Greyhart

According to those function tests my Si Se and Fi are at the ground zero with fe ni te somewhere in the middle and Ne Ti taking up everything. Tests type me ILE-1Ne or 2Ne.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> YOU. FIX THAT SHIT NOW. GO. NOW.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @_arkigos_ all those Pi descriptions with their intense attachment are panic-inducing to read. "A real Si would have a massive crisis at even the vaguest hint that their mythological perceptions were meaningless and unreal. If Jung is to be believed, it would probably *break their mind*."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am now worried about arguing with my parents. Am I doing damage? I could be.


Remember that voice crying in the wilderness.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

arkigos said:


> Si, of course, would not equate to an interest in mythology. At all. Si, as Jung described it, would subscribe to their own mythological view of the world, which *they would not vaguely comprehend as being mythological*, and then (unless Ne was able to affect some compensation) out-of-hand dismiss anything not in sync with it. Honestly, even those Si who are all into Ne still do this, in the most deep-seated and insidious of ways, while in matters of entertainment and whimsy they'd seem quite in tune with Ne. Actually, Don Henley's relative self-awareness is one of the open contentions for him as an INFP.
> 
> Anyway, interpreting Si as 'people interested in mythology' is profoundly missing the mark. Si would be the people who deeply believe in subjective myths - and internalize this perception. It would not be on the table for committee. A real Si would have a massive crisis at even the vaguest hint that their mythological perceptions were meaningless and unreal. If Jung is to be believed, it would probably break their mind.
> 
> I also think that you are perhaps picking apart many of my examples quite a bit too literally. It feels like a checklist to me. A very literal checklist. Not sure what to make of that.
> 
> Don't take this as continuing to push that you are Si. This isn't relevant to that, or angling with that agenda. I am just being a Ti and picking nits out of your process.


I... I mean, I just... It would break me to have any idea that what I know is real isn't real, that my whole life I'm going to be doomed to lay my false perception of reality over reality. I seek to see pure truth and perceive reality as it actually is, experience reality as it actually is, and understand the deeper meanings of life beyond what is immediately there. I... Yeah. Maybe that points to me being Si, but I don't... I don't think I do lay things over reality, I think I do honestly perceive reality as it is and the meanings I see beyond that are different, but true. 

That's another reason why I don't want to be an Si-dom. I don't want to be Mother Theresa, incorrectly perceiving reality and forcing my false perception of life on the world. I fear that. I work against that. I am constantly challenging my perception to make sure it is true, that what I am Percieving is real and as unbiased as possible. If I can't see what's real... I don't know. Like one of my life goals honestly is to see what is true and of course ISFJs would want that to, but I don't think they would want it in the way I do and seek it in the way that I do.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Remember that voice crying in the wilderness.


----------



## orbit

I am crying inside psh

Readingontheroof posted that INFJs want to fight ESTPs the most

And tagged it as that she hates ESTPs and wants to fight me

Wow. Well I'm glad INFJs are rare then.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I am crying inside psh
> 
> Readingontheroof posted that INFJs want to fight ESTPs the most
> 
> And tagged it as that she hates ESTPs and wants to fight me
> 
> Wow. Well I'm glad INFJs are rare then.


By rules of socionics INFJs and ESTPs are duals aka best pairing. Like ISFJs and ENTPs. :kitteh:


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> By rules of socionics INFJs and ESTPs are duals aka best pairing. Like ISFJs and ENTPs. :kitteh:


*smirks* 

You ma bae ;D


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> *sweating* @angelcat ??...
> 
> Maybe you are ISTP? Serious-er.


Eh. Look it up for yourself. 



Greyhart said:


> I think @angelcat 's INTJ friend is kind of extreme Ni.


Yeah, he is. It doesn't help that he seems to be in a permanent Ni/Fi loop. I do know another INTJ, though -- a woman. I hardly ever even get a whiff of Ni with her, it's mostly Te. Straightforward evidence, communication, facts, objectivity, with a total detachment from traditional things. We get on surprisingly well, actually, though she thinks I'm a bit "soft."
@alittlebear: C.S. Lewis called Christianity "the myth that came true." Once you grasp that concept, back to front, it will blow your mind.



arkigos said:


> Anyway, interpreting Si as 'people interested in mythology' is profoundly missing the mark. Si would be the people who deeply believe in subjective myths - and internalize this perception. It would not be on the table for committee. A real Si would have a massive crisis at even the vaguest hint that their mythological perceptions were meaningless and unreal. If Jung is to be believed, it would probably break their mind.


Agreed. I see it most profoundly in other Si users, but it's probably true of me as well. Their reality isn't reality. It's not even close to the reality I see around them. Sometimes, when this reality, this personal mythology, encompasses their entire worldview, it profoundly removes them from reality to the extent where they are downright delusional. Like, the sister who believes her little sister is wonderful, and beautiful, and perfect, when in reality her little sister is profoundly flawed. Real life is pushed away, and denied, and covered up with a mythologized version of events. 

My mom's entire family is rampant with Si-delusions, and personal mythologies -- to varying degrees of what I cavalierly call "insanity." Their version of reality, of what happened in their childhoods, of family itself, isn't remotely, objectively true. And if you challenged that, or called it into question, they would indeed ... melt down. The thought that their impressions aren't real ... would capsize the boat.



> I also think that you are perhaps picking apart many of my examples quite a bit too literally. It feels like a checklist to me. A very literal checklist. Not sure what to make of that.


I've noticed this too. It's interesting, though I don't know what it means either.


----------



## fair phantom

Introverted Intuition (Ni) ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 11.945
Extroverted Feeling (Fe) ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 11.91
Introverted Feeling (Fi) ||||||||||||||||||||||| 10.62
Extroverted Intuition (Ne) |||||||||||||||||||||| 10.19
Introverted Sensation (Si) ||||||||||| 4.54
Introverted Thinking (Ti) ||||||||||| 4.53
Extroverted Thinking (Te) ||||||| 2.78
Extroverted Sensation (Se) || -1.43


¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I also want to add, like it said to @shinynotshiny, I didn't take what you said as literally as it appeared. I do understand what you're saying about mythologies, but I don't know how else to reply to it other than to say that "I understand what you mean about personal mythologies and I really do not think I experience that at all." 

Also, my obsessively addressing every point is another symptom of anxiety. I overexpplain in the hopes that people will understand me better. I'm working on it, but it's something that I do unhealthily and unnaturally ^^


----------



## Psychopomp

Greyhart said:


> @_arkigos_ all those Pi descriptions with their intense attachment are panic-inducing to read. "A real Si would have a massive crisis at even the vaguest hint that their mythological perceptions were meaningless and unreal. If Jung is to be believed, it would probably *break their mind*."
> 
> 
> I am now worried about arguing with my parents. Am I doing damage? I could be.


Yeah, that is pretty much the Ne Curse, isn't it? Seeing all the expanse of perspective and the very act of extraverting this, which is the core of your cognition and desire.... is DAMAGING and painful to those you love. My circle of friends basically amounts to a support group for this. However, on the other end of it you'll find that either your Ne will be the source of that 'affecting a wholesome compensation', or the natural introversion of this perception will allow them to basically say 'you go your way I'll go mine'. Both are like to occur with a little tact and bravery. 



alittlebear said:


> I... I mean, I just... It would break me to have any idea that what I know is real isn't real, that my whole life I'm going to be doomed to lay my false perception of reality over reality. I seek to see pure truth and perceive reality as it actually is, experience reality as it actually is, and understand the deeper meanings of life beyond what is immediately there. I... Yeah. Maybe that points to me being Si, but I don't... I don't think I do lay things over reality, I think I do honestly perceive reality as it is and the meanings I see beyond that are different, but true.
> 
> That's another reason why I don't want to be an Si-dom. I don't want to be Mother Theresa, incorrectly perceiving reality and forcing my false perception of life on the world. I fear that. I work against that. I am constantly challenging my perception to make sure it is true, that what I am Percieving is real and as unbiased as possible. If I can't see what's real... I don't know. Like one of my life goals honestly is to see what is true and of course ISFJs would want that to, but I don't think they would want it in the way I do and seek it in the way that I do.


Well, both Ni and Si would do this in equal measure, though it could certainly be argued that Si is the more dangerous in the sense you mean. Luckily, you are either an Extravert or functionally Ambiverted, right? It would be hard to characterize your Fe as inferior (such as was certainly the case with Mother Teresa - and by inferior I mean relegated to the subconscious - which all other functions are by those with a very strong dominant function). 

It is worth noting, too, that Jung, after giving his descriptions of the types, immediately qualified them as very rare and extreme examples meant to clearly delineate the types and weed out ambiguity. Actually, Jung felt that most people were 'undifferentiated' to the point of being untypable. I would correct this as 'hella difficult to type and sometimes, yeah, impossible'. I mean to say that being an Ni-dom or an Si-dom by no means relegates one to this fate of mind-breaking subjectivity of reality perception.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I also want to add, like it said to @_shinynotshiny_, I didn't take what you said as literally as it appeared. I do understand what you're saying about mythologies, but I don't know how else to reply to it other than to say that "I understand what you mean about personal mythologies and I really do not think I experience that at all."
> 
> Also, my obsessively addressing every point is another symptom of anxiety. I overexpplain in the hopes that people will understand me better. I'm working on it, but it's something that I do unhealthily and unnaturally ^^


Hmmm?



> I also happen to not be too fond of mythology? I think it's interesting what myths from different cultures say about the culture, and how myths both shaped and were shaped by societies, but apart from that I have little interest in myths. They can be fun, but little more than that. I'm actually currently reading a work where myths are a big part of the characters' cultures.


----------



## Greyhart

Yup, reading about Si gives me legit bouts of anxiety. 



fair phantom said:


> Introverted Intuition (Ni) ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 11.945
> Extroverted Feeling (Fe) ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 11.91
> Introverted Feeling (Fi) ||||||||||||||||||||||| 10.62
> Extroverted Intuition (Ne) |||||||||||||||||||||| 10.19
> Introverted Sensation (Si) ||||||||||| 4.54
> Introverted Thinking (Ti) ||||||||||| 4.53
> Extroverted Thinking (Te) ||||||| 2.78
> Extroverted Sensation (Se) || -1.43
> 
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


What the fuck is that you wonder human :laughing:



Curiphant said:


> I am crying inside psh
> 
> Readingontheroof posted that INFJs want to fight ESTPs the most
> 
> And tagged it as that she hates ESTPs and wants to fight me
> 
> Wow. Well I'm glad INFJs are rare then.


I've recently found out that most of my ships are of "aggressive" kind. I'm not sure what to make of it but yours looks like a story out of my fanfiction.



> the many forms of shipping
> casual: well I mean if I had to ship them with someone it'd be them
> *aggressive:* they can't fucking stand each other omg I love this
> angsty: one of you better be in a coma
> fluffy: CUDDLE FESTS, FOREHEAD KISSES, NOSE-BOOPS
> heavily supportive: I will draw/find every fanart I can of them until my fingers bleed
> EXCESSIVELY supportive: I should be studying for finals but instead I am up at 4 in the morning reading some fanfiction a kindergartner wrote because there's literally nothing better
> THIRSTY AF: they better do the do everywhere in every way possible I better see some tongue action, some personal kinks, and if I don't see a dick in an ass in five minutes I swear to god I will shove a brick down my throat
> obsessive: the wallpaper on my phone is my OTP, I have t-shirts of my OTP, my profile pic on every account I own is a pic of my OTP, my entire room's walls are covered in a collage of my OTP, the plushies I have of my OTP are making out right now, my entire life and my every source of happiness depends on these two fictional characters being disgustingly in love
> emotional: legitimate sobbing over the ship
> headcanon/AU: the canon version of these two assholes actually doesn't work at all but the fandom version is BEA TUTIf UL and is LOAD ED D with glorious hcs that just make so much sense they connect with my soul
> musical: (listening to ipod) omg A could sing this to B
> canon: the only reason I am calm is because it actually happened
> NEVER-GOING-TO-BE-CANON: (faint crying mixed with incoherent guttural noises)
> beyond hope of salvation: all of the above


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Yup, reading about Si gives me legit bouts of anxiety.
> 
> 
> 
> What the fuck is that you wonder human :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> I've recently found out that most of my ships are of "aggressive" kind. I'm not sure what to make of it but yours looks like a story out of my fanfiction.


I do not think I will be aggressively get laid by an INFJ


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> What the fuck is that you wonder human :laughing:


I don't knooooooow


----------



## Immolate

I continue to bite my tongue.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@arkigos Thank you. That settles it, I think... because I do relate to Ni, just not to the extreme point (as Jung's examples are "extreme," which makes sense). It fits me a lot better than Si, I think... which perhaps that can't be seen on the thread, but if actually have to work very hard to be understood, and what really gets me is... my life is fixated around a goal. Since I was a child, my life has been fixated around a goal. That's not explained by an ISFJ typing, but it is very much explained by Ni in my function stack. 

That said, I think you do make a good point about my extroversion. I don't think this is exactly the point you were trying to make, but in think that my determination to be true to what is in the world and being careful not to disconnect from it does indicate that I am likely more Extroverted than I am Introverted. 

And with that, I think I will shut down my type discussion for now. ENFJ is me. I am an odd ENFJ, as I am anxious and in some ways stunted, but function-wise I think it does fit me best.


----------



## orbit

Could we go in a different direction? Do we see any Se or Ne? Those should be more obvious as they are extroverted and maybe her tertiary functions?

Greyhart says no Ne but more opinions probably are needed ^^

EDIT LOOK IT'S BEEN SHUT DOWN AFTER 423 PAGES OF SERIOUS INSIGHT ABOUT BEARPHANT'S FUNCTIONS


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Hmmm?


??? I don't think there's anything particularly Si about seeing what myths say about cultures. That seems like something anyone looking at a society from a sociological or historical standpoint would seek to do.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I do not think I will be aggressively get laid by an INFJ


Shhh, don't give me ideas too late... oh no

on this high note it's 5:21 my annoying falcon bird is now overpowered by whatever day birds those are and my mother will visit me with my dog in about 10 hours.

Night!


----------



## Greyhart

Don't fight without me!!


----------



## Rebel Sheep

I don't know if this is what she is referring to but Mother Theresa is not a good a figure as you think she is. If you really look into her character there are a lot of controversial things, putting it gently...


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> Interesting, isn't it? That closeness of functions makes it impossible to just go with the flow and not be strong-willed, and yet ISFJs are most often routinely accused of that very thing.
> 
> Hmm. Maybe all the stereotypes are... wrong.


Yeah, I know. A lot of people, I have noticed, have stereotyped ISFJs as being like Mother Theresa type people, and Kiersey defines us as 'The Nurturers', but I haven't actually found many ISFJs who fit that stereotype.

Yes, we care about people, yes we can go with the flow, yes, we don't mind helping people out and encouraging them, but we also have our own thoughts/opinions in our minds about the outside world. We aren't just 'care slaves', if you know what I mean? 

Interesting you say that. I bought a book about Philosophy on Saturday, and it really forces you to think for yourself. It's full of so many different concepts, questions and opinions. You have to use your own inner thought processes to understand things. 

Yes, sometimes it's not as natural to think about these things using Ti as it would for an xNTP, but once you get into the swing of things, it's fun. 

And also, as for stereotypes, a lot of ISFJs have been known to come across as ENTP-like. Especially ones who can use their Tertiary/Inferior Functions as a healthy relief functions.

I was reading something, somewhere about Obama being an ISFJ, and him being frequently mistyped as ENTP (something to do with his Auxiliary Fe), which I guess could make sense, if he has well developed Tert/Inf functions at his age.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Hello friends.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Since when is this Mother Theresa? Why?


Look at the quote before mine. Arkigos said - and of course I may be wrongly paraphrasing - that Mother Theresa as an ISFJ was much more disconnected from reality because she was throwing her mythology on the world than Gandhi the INFJ was. 

I'll quote it, just a second.


----------



## Psychopomp

alittlebear said:


> Ni is fixated in the future. (I cannot cite this. I have not read Jung. But almost every description of Ni I read has to do with it being future oriented, and I know that @_AnGe_kcat has associated it numerous times with fixating on one goal and working tirelessly towards it.) That's what I do. I need to reach my one goal, my one future I have decided for myself, or I will not be fulfilled. That it shut truly haunts me. This is more of an Ni anxiety than an Ne anxiety, certainly, and it has nothing to do with any description of Si that I recall reading.


Hrm. That would be MBTI. Using or thinking in functions within the MBTI framework is probably not a good idea. Myers paid lip service to them but changed a lot about them while also completely marginalizing and ignoring them. This created a larger problem where most of what you hear about cognitive functions are conflated with MBTI - which is now an entirely different system with only superficial associations with its source. You can find a description of the functions on the MBTI site, but functions are not a real part of that system. They aren't compatible. 

Jung, who is the sole originator of all of this, but specifically of the functions, and the one we must certainly judge ourselves against when speaking of them (as opposed to people on the internet, whose only credentials are that they know how to use Wordpress? Or those who have more seriously attempted to take from Jung and MBTI and synthesize something from it - which is a problematic adventure to be sure - the result of which is that they mostly say 'Jung is hard, let's ignore him'). It seems really odd to dismiss Jung in a discussion of functions. That would be akin to dismissing Einstein or Hawkings in a conversation about cosmology. Not to say we shouldn't question him, of course. 

Anyway, the funny thing is that even a reading of MBTI doesn't support NFJ as being more goal oriented than SFJ - and it is a reaching interpretation of 'future oriented' to say so. For example, MBTI also says that Ni is 'big picture' and thus not detail oriented. And Ne would also be future oriented but not goal oriented? It's a mess.

Also, I think of something like, say, Condoleezza Rice as a really random example... or maybe some other relatively banal figure who is also nevertheless very obviously incredibly goal oriented. I don't see how this interpretation can be justified with or without MBTI.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Avalnoah said:


> I don't know if this is what she is referring to but Mother Theresa is not a good a figure as you think she is. If you really look into her character there are a lot of controversial things, putting it gently...


We're Catholic. 

I haven't looked into Mother Theresa beyond my assigned readings, but I think it was confirmed that she abused others when they didn't work hard enough, or something? If that's true then... Love doesn't do that. I'm sure that she was loving and that she acted in love in many ways but I don't think that someone is deserving of being heralded as... a saint, say, if they have abused others as those instances would suggest.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm also going to give my warning again that I am very wound up. I decided that I was ENFJ - _again_, since most of the evidence that makes sense points directly to that - and it's just argued. I do want to know the truth, but can we please realize that this discussion is very stressful to me and that we should perhaps trust me when I say that I finally know myself, especially since part of my conditions is that I have a hard time deciding that so if I decide that it honestly says a lot about what's going on with me. 

Maybe I'm not making sense. Okay. But please excuse me if I am blunt or emotional or torn apart by this. I am torn apart by this. I've spent so many years being haunted by my lack of type. It has contributed more than any of you but Curi can know to my mental health problems. This past week has been almost nothing but me obsessively musing my type. My birthday is this Friday, and honestly I more than anything want this type thing squared away so I can finally move on with my life and stop being dragged down in thoughts by this stupid uncertainty here.


----------



## Psychopomp

Oswin said:


> Since when is this Mother Theresa? Why?


Mother Teresa is a highly controversial figure who some see, perhaps accurately, as being kinda evil. 

Christopher Hitchens, a GREAT example of an ambiverted NTJ, btw, had much to say about her - though some might call him biased, he was certainly coming from a very empirically critical Te place:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@arkigos Sorry, I'm honestly not in the mood for intellectual discussion or whatever you're doing. I don't know where it originated from that NJs are goal oriented, but it did. And, considering that it's in a lot of places, I think also in accredited MBTI books (I can't cite, but in am pretty certain it's there because it didn't pop out of nowhere), I think there's _something_ to it. And I'm going to trust that over you saying that Ni is not especially goal oriented at all, especially since that is literally the first time I have heard that interpretation. 

I'm not trying to be rude. This is honestly how I'm seeing this conversation, and if think it will be better if I am open about this communication.


----------



## Psychopomp

alittlebear said:


> I'm also going to give my warning again that I am very wound up. I decided that I was ENFJ - _again_, since most of the evidence that makes sense points directly to that - and it's just argued. I do want to know the truth, but can we please realize that this discussion is very stressful to me and that we should perhaps trust me when I say that I finally know myself, especially since part of my conditions is that I have a hard time deciding that so if I decide that it honestly says a lot about what's going on with me.
> 
> Maybe I'm not making sense. Okay. But please excuse me if I am blunt or emotional or torn apart by this. I am torn apart by this. I've spent so many years being haunted by my lack of type. It has contributed more than any of you but Curi can know to my mental health problems. This past week has been almost nothing but me obsessively musing my type. My birthday is this Friday, and honestly I more than anything want this type thing squared away so I can finally move on with my life and stop being dragged down in thoughts by this stupid uncertainty here.


Forgive me for being too aloof and clinical here, but this might be a good example of inferior Ti. 

---

If it helps, I have had intense pangs of anxiety every time I have seen that you have responded to one of my posts. This whole process is incredibly uncomfortable for me (though I live in my dominant when actually responding) and there is a terrible inferior urge in me to DROP IT and give you a virtual hug and say sorry for......... everything. Ever.

...and there's inferior Fe for you.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

arkigos said:


> Forgive me for being too aloof and clinical here, but this might be a good example of inferior Ti.
> 
> ---
> 
> If it helps, I have had intense pangs of anxiety every time I have seen that you have responded to one of my posts. This whole process is incredibly uncomfortable for me (though I live in my dominant when actually responding) and there is a terrible inferior urge in me to DROP IT and give you a virtual hug and say sorry for......... everything. Ever.
> 
> ...and there's inferior Fe for you.


Oh my gosh, you too? I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse, but... Oh my goodness, I am so sorry that I made you feel that. 

I'll edit and respond more but I want to say this to balance out my anxious blunt meanness in the post above. I'm sorry! Give me a second.

New edit: See, this is what I do better, personal talking stuff.  Sorry... Honestly, as I've said, this whole thing has gotten me really wound up. I do really appreciate you and everyone taking the time to type me - so much, honestly it's amazing and I have trouble fathoming it, so many people working to help me find my type - but... Part of it is that I've had this obsession with finding my type for years now. And I know it's bad - gosh, even my Psych teacher the first year I found it told me that like that was a bad idea to get so fixated on typology - but I didn't listen, you know? I couldn't stop. I was fascinated by it. It made so much sense. But then it haunted me. It makes sense, but where am I? How am I perceived? Who am I, in Jung's world at least? It's ridiculous, I know, but unfortunately that's what happened. 

And now... I just want to get it done. You know? I want it to sail. 

Stress-y feelings aside, what you're saying about Pi wanting to... what, be alone? Just to not affect the world, right? That makes perfect sense. I always wondered why Ni and Si were associated with decision making when they were Percieving functions. Honestly what you're saying there makes a lot of sense, like honestly more than it should. 

And Fe having the goal... Yeah, that makes sense too. A lot of sense. Why would I want to share my vision with the world? Not because my Percieving function wants me to, certainly. But because my Judgment decision wants to, and because my Fe wants to connect with people and of course,be recognized. Honestly that makes a ton of sense too. 

That said, I still don't know where I fit. Si does make sense for the silly reasons I said earlier, but Ni makes sense for others? It's confusing. 

And, of course, part of it is because, as I've been too plain about, I've never considered an S type for me... like so many here. Of course that doesn't exempt me from being an S type, but it's just so difficult to contemplate. Settle into your head. 

I have more thoughts to share, of course, but I could be here all night if I continued. 

But these are more of like my real thoughts and anxieties (not entirely, but some). 

I do appreciate your help though. And I am very sorry for getting short. I try to match tones. Not to the point where I try to be bitter, but if I am confronted with a clinical tone I try to stay clinical for a while... and then I burst, sometimes. I think I burst tonight. I really apologize if I burst too wildly, and I hope it did not hurt you. What I'm saying here is more the truth: I do appreciate what you're saying, and it does make sense, but I'm just honestly very flustered because I've been stupid enough to get too involved with this theory and at this point I honestly want out of the whole wound up thing... but it know I can't do that without settling on my true type. 

I'm sorry this process is making me so explosive, though. I appreciate your Patrice and your priceless knowledge though, even if I am not expressing that at all as I feel it.


----------



## Immolate

I'm confused by all these emotions. Feel better, everyone.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm confused by all these emotions. Feel better, everyone.


You're an ISTJ now? Did you confirm Si? ???
???
??
?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

I really want to help with this conversation, but I honestly am lost and have no clue as to what I can do to benefit...


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> You're an ISTJ now? *Did you confirm Si? *???
> ???
> ??
> ?


lol not at all

I'd like to talk about Ni/Si and how I relate to them, although I'm done for the night.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> lol not at all
> 
> I'd like to talk about Ni/Si and how I relate to them, although I'm done for the night.


Alright, fair enough.

Good luck figuring it out...:crying:


----------



## Psychopomp

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm confused by all these emotions. Feel better, everyone.


Hugs are........... not my forte:










Avoided not out of apathy, but ineptitude.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

That said, I need to wind down too. I'm not abandoning the thread entirely, but if I lag in my responses that's certainly why.

But, to add to the hugs


----------



## TheProphetLaLa

What is this monster of a thread? I have _never_ seen a typing thread this long before. What took place in here? How many wars were fought and lost? How many babies birthed? I don't know if I want to know...


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Alright, fair enough.
> 
> Good luck figuring it out...:crying:


Have some questions for me tomorrow? :kitteh:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Have some questions for me tomorrow? :kitteh:


Sure thing! I'll think of some and ask you them tomorrow.


----------



## Dangerose

arkigos said:


> Mother Teresa is a highly controversial figure who some see, perhaps accurately, as being kinda evil.
> 
> Christopher Hitchens, a GREAT example of an ambiverted NTJ, btw, had much to say about her - though some might call him biased, he was certainly coming from a very empirically critical Te place:


Ok, I don't know a lot about Mother Theresa and this video is taking a really long time to get to the point (and the guy's manner was starting to piss me off; "Her cult of death and suffering" because normal 1st world medical procedures were not being followed in a 3rd world country? Unless he was leading up to another better point about a cult of death and suffering, but I only watched about halfway through before I got too annoyed/angry. Cutting from the old woman who seems so kind and genuine and full of light to this toadlike man (no offense) saying cruel things about her was a poor artistic choice. 

As I said, I don't have a strong opinion or much knowledge about Mother Teresa but I think it's a huge stretch to be using her as an example of 'kinda evil'.


----------



## Dangerose

Or...we're not saying debatey things, just hugging?
(I always feel uncomfortable because I reply to comments before reading the rest of the thread and seeing how the mood's changed...crap Fe)
Anyways...if @arkigos or @tine or anyone want to switch from typing alittlebear to typing me, I'm 100% open to it) As well as working on @shinynotshiny of courseI'm just so close to finding my type!
Anyways, I apologize if I was part of the problem (I'm still confused about what the problem is, don't explain, just don't have it anymore plz) and...hope everything is ok with this thread. 
Have some earnest yet awkward Fe:


----------



## Dangerose

double post
(P.S. does anyone think I could have inferior Fe? tine suggested INTP. Though I do think I'm an SJ...what about ISTJ in a Si-Fi loop?)


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> double post
> (P.S. does anyone think I could have inferior Fe? tine suggested INTP. Though I do think I'm an SJ...what about ISTJ in a Si-Fi loop?)


I think either is a possibility. What you wrote earlier about how you deal with someone being sad lead me to think you _could_ be an Fi-user. It had tinges of both Fi and Fe.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> I think either is a possibility. What you wrote earlier about how you deal with someone being sad lead me to think you _could_ be an Fi-user. It had tinges of both Fi and Fe.


That's me! "Tinges of Fi and Fe."
I seem to toe the line a lot and though I know my_self_ pretty well I'm not sure where to categorize what I do functionally speaking. Which is also why I'm uncomfortable trying to identify others' feeling functions.
Anyways, thanks for your thoughts)


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> double post
> (P.S. does anyone think I could have inferior Fe? tine suggested INTP. Though I do think I'm an SJ...what about ISTJ in a Si-Fi loop?)


Inferior Fe is bordering impossible imo.
You guys,THAT'S JUST NOT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE haha
Tertiary I really doubt,it's also simply not like that.
You're either xSFJ or xNFP(I see no Te whatsoever though,therefore ISTJ no way either)


----------



## Dangerose

Possible useful info for typing me in spoiler:


* *




Not sure if this is relevant but I finally typed up the lyrics to all the songs I have written/am writing and I was thinking they seemed maybe really Fi? Almost Fi-Se? Thought I'd post them here in case it's helpful for my type (not trying to make this my typing thread, just think figuring out if I use Fe or Fi might lead to some insights about Fe and Fi, plus there are people here). Anyways, these span many years, as I generally just develop songs casually in the back of my mind as I'm doing other things and it takes a really long time to get a whole thing. Some of these are _really_ old. Hence more objectively accurate than what I'm typing _right now_ while thinking about typology.

* *






*Violetta*

Tell me the party isn't over
Tell me this day doesn't have to end
You see, I don't want to go to bed
I don't want to rest my weary head

Champagne, heartbreak in the moonlight
Dancing, soaring through the night
I don't want to say goodbye
I don't want to cry
I'd grow tired of endless light

I wish, I wish I was stronger
I wish, I wish I was brave
I don't like to see the stars
I don't like the passing hours

I wish I could stay forever
I'd find heaven in your eyes
I don't mean to be a bother
But I'd really rather stay

Father, keep me through the night
Mother, don't turn out the light
I'm not finished saying all I have to say
I'm in love with evening, I'm in love with day
I'm in love with green and I'm in love with grey.

Tell me, tell me that you'll miss me
Kiss me, kiss me one more time
Though the music's dying, I'm denying
You see, I don't want this song to end.


*Eloise*

Here in the garden the lamplight is low
And the air is astir with the fluttering wings of those
Who came to bathe in the light in your eyes

[Chorus]
Oh, love of mine, oh, evening star
Oh, come to me tonight
The air is clear and you are here
And I'll stay by your side
Oh, light divine, I'll follow you
Wherever you may go
And we'll be twain, and I'll remain
And I will always love you so

Deep in the forest the moonlight is shivering
Silent and shimmering, bends to us quivering
Whispering tales from the days of desire

[Chorus]

There are spirits in the forest
They will guide us our way home
If you ask them to come closer
They will tell us where to roam
And the roads that I would follow
And the tales that I would tell
For the one who stole my heartbeats
Oh my love, I wish you well

[maybe another verse then]


*Florence
*
If you are happy
Then I am happy, too
Happy to be true
To 'everything for you'
If you don't miss me
Then I'll throw away the key
The key that brings you back to me
Brings you back to me

[Chorus]
But you would weep so if you knew that
You were the only thing holding back the darkness
You were the only thing keeping back the demons in my soul
You were the only thing singing in the silence
You were the only light in the starless sea

If you are waiting
Then I am waiting, too
Waiting here for you
Always waiting here for you
If you forget me
Then you were meant to be
Somewhere far away from me
Far away from me

[Chorus]

You are the singing in the sea
You are my love who sailed the sea

[Chorus]



*Elise* (might change to something that looks less like Eloise)




I've been here, I've been there
I've been bold, I've been scared
I've been young, catching dreams in the river
I've known pain, I've known fear
And I've travelled everywhere
But all my life is all I can't remember

I've known many a moon
Shining high in the gloom
Shining high in my memory forever
Now the lark on the wing has one final song to sing
Then all my life is but a burning ember

Farewell to you, my own native country and my own native land
Farewell to the evening, to the cry of the wind
To heavenly sin, to the touch of angels' wings
But now it seems I bid farewell to singing

Farewell to all my friends and relations and my only true love
Farewell to my smoky skies, the sigh of the sea
The brook near the lee and the bluebird in the green
For now it seems I bid farewell to music

I can dream, I can die
I can breathe, I can cry
But my soul is a leaf on the river
Looking up at the sky without words to wonder why
Then all my life is all I can't remember


*Надя*

Я жду тебя
Не спешу понять
Я без тебя
Не могу дышать
Я никогда не думала что ты любил меня
Но я мечтала всё-равно

Хочу тебя
Не хочу назад
А я к тебе
Так хочу летать
Прости меня, не думала что ты любил меня
Но я любила всё-равно

Ты пламень в глазах моих
Ты самый ласковый сон
Сердце не разбито
Но сердцу больно всё-равно

Не жду тебя
Но я буду ждать
Люблю тебя
Не могу дышать
Я никогда не думала что ты любил меня
Но мне всё больно
Всё равно


*Andy Taylor's First Wife's Name from the Andy Griffith show*

You dance with her but you turn to me
Love, when will you let me be
I'd be with you in the moonlight
If I could make it by your side

Let me go
The course of true love runs forever
Let me go
I love you and our love can stand all weather
Let me go

It's fine up here, but it's dark below
And all this for a boy I know
A lonesome lad with a smile so glad
Who keeps me by his bedside stand
Let me go

(etc.)

*Untitled (chorus)*
When your demons come a-calling
You can tell them you can't play
If they ask you where to find you
You can tell them you're with me
Say they needn't bother
Say you're here to stay

*Untitled (chorus)*
'Cause boys always want to tear down dollhouses
I won't turn my head when you walk because it's
Too late to say the words that would save you
My love, come back to stay

*Untitled (chorus)*

My love, oh my love, when you left me
I thought that the sun would not shine
But now it grants gold in great measure 
But you are my love, with my love I must die

And I chose a fair-voiced singer
Yes, I chose a fool who could sing
And he'll be my true-love forever
But now I must hasten to marry the king

(Not sure where I was going with this but the melody is catchy)


----------



## Tad Cooper

Oswin said:


> So I can't find it to quote, but @_tine_ asked me many pages back how I deal with someone being sad.
> 
> The other day I was at work (I help a woman with Alzheimer's) and she started talking about her husband's death and how just like that her perfect marriage was over. It was very affecting.
> 
> Externally: I was trying not to cry, but show sympathy. I wanted to encourage her to talk about it because she doesn't open up about these things and I feel it is good for her to express these things, so I was asking little questions. I also found myself not knowing what to say and repeating little platitudes but I always try to keep that at the minimum. I tried to end the conversation on a note of appreciating the good the man had done and some stuff about her children and grandchildren, but I knew realistically that nothing I was going to say was going to make her feel better about her husband's death and I thought the best thing was to let her express these emotions and reflections out loud and maybe work through it a little, so I considered my presence there as mostly an instrument for her expression
> 
> Internally: I was very affected by the pathos of what she was saying and also a little impressed at the poetry in it. I was reflecting on how she was feeling, imagining her life and honestly a little grateful for the clearer glimpse into her life. I was also feeling sad _for myself_ (and obviously feeling very selfish about that as well), because I'm not married and even if I do get married I could be widowed, and I was thinking about how in stories it usually ends with the marriage and you forget that those things end, I was imagining my favorite fictional characters at the end of their lives. I was feeling connected to this woman, and feeling frustrated and sad about the way that even though I felt love for her, not being related to her or close enough to her to tell her this, and then I was thinking a. About doctors/caregivers who work in senior homes, and if they feel a similar way, and b. About how many people at the end of their life end up in an institution or place where the people around them aren't close to them, and no one tells them they love them, and I started to write a song in my head with a chorus with the line "No one can say I love you anymore" and I explored the options with this a bit, but primarily my focus was on feeling sad for her.
> 
> It's funny, not sure if relevant, but a few weeks ago I freaked out about something maybe work-related, and I was talking to my mother trying to figure out what was wrong, and at some point I was talking about work and how I kind-of felt like the bad guy at my job, and I started crying and talking about some of the things I was thinking about it, and she suddenly asked me, "Does your job make you sad?" and I said no, but then I realized that _yes_, my job does make me sad. I hadn't realized it, I hadn't even been feeling invested in my job at all, and it seems really obvious that working with an Alzheimer's patient would make me sad, but I hadn't even noticed it until my mother pointed it out.


From that I'd say you could well be using Fi, especially with the value judgements of "it's good she opened up" etc. So maybe youre on the Te-Fi scale?
Can I ask why you think you use Si?


----------



## Dangerose

tine said:


> Can I ask why you think you use Si?


I don't know, I don't know anything anymore! 2 whours ago I felt really confident about being on the Si-Ne scale but in that time period I've been coming face to face with the thought that...maybe I'm an ISFP?? I was typing up different songs and such that I've written (looking to the post above the one I quoted), and, you know, I thought stuff like this:


> I've been young, catching dreams in the river
> I've known pain, I've known fear
> And I've travelled everywhere
> But all my life is all I can't remember
> 
> I've known many a moon
> Shining high in the gloom
> Shining high in my memory forever


...was Si, but literally everything else looks crazy FiSe. Like, basically Lana del Rey "Sensory detail sensory detail I will love you forever sensory detail weird symbolism"

Which is such a weird mind-twisting thought, I've been so accustomed to thinking I used Si, that I feel like my power of analysis has been robbed from me and I need other people to do it for me)

I can answer questions though) Just not specifically about the functions maybe because that's the area where I'm confused))


----------



## AdInfinitum

shinynotshiny said:


> Here's my dilemma, NobleRaven. I'm positive I'm IxTJ, and I'd say Te and Fi are the functions I see the most in my personality. They are the most obvious when you interact with me. My Ne and Se are crumbs here and there, but I know Se is my weakest function of all. I've started a few typing threads but they've ended without clarity.
> 
> I've been typed INFP, ISTJ, INTJ, and once ISTP. I can't say I relate to Si the way it's been described here (specifically in the ISTJ forum) but I know Si suffers from a lot of stereotypes and bias. I hesitate to call myself an Ni-dom even though I relate to Ni more than Si because some people treat Ni like some sort of divine gift. A problem I keep running into is that I keep seeing Si described in terms of its relationship to Fe rather than Te. The same can be said about Ni.


I will try to help you as well as I can. I am also practising my understanding so I guess you could hide the bits in a win-win situation.

We have established before that every introverted function is rich in details bound on the individual's understanding. Fi is a rich function because it tries to stay in tune with its internal world so you will see FP's and TJ's with a strong sense of themselves however it judges the world in a right or wrong manner, whatever does not fall with their feelings, is discarded or treated with care. Ti has the same issues with values of truth and lie, it wants issues to be as concise as possible so it will analyse the problem with an internal logic boundary.

Si and Ni are different. Si loves its past because it has the tendency to store the beauty and the malice from the past, every sensation will be stored and loved because it is a deep appreciation towards the world they live in, they were nourished in an environment therefore they take it with themselves in great detail. I often see Si users recalling who they were with in a situation, where they were, how the wind was blowing and it made them feel cold, or the light was too bright and it made them feel down, it is all based on the interior of the person and how he interacted with the outside, they know what foods relax them or what stresses them, who cooks their favourite food because it is all personalized. Si creates a huge world based on idealistic personal mythologies which help them cope with the outside world because the outside can be terrifying. In times of crisis they will often think about a past situation when the same issue arrived but they managed to escape through different methods, the past situation with a good flavour will help them understand the new situation with an unknown flavour because they will have a known starting point. Si is the function of storage in terms of sensorial impressions, they remember songs they have heard 20 years ago, voices they have heard before, books read in a different period. If you attack their past, you are prone to ruining an entire imperium stacked up with appreciation and pain as their cognition tries to recreate the same frame of imagery from their past.


Ni is not coping so well with its past because it has a futuristic mindset, it acts in a different way, they store intuitive archetypes, strong internal imagery which has no connection with the actual representation of the outside, they create huge relationships between the human mind/soul/core and the flow of the Universe, one of the most frequent Ni thoughts is how the Universe was in a perfect state before the Bing Bang, but physics ruined its core and it was dammed to change unlike Ne which is more than happy to see the Universe expanding as it hides a ton of possibilities which it can think of. Ni also uses a different comparison, knowledge is energy, the soul is force, they have a different taste, a different flow which helps them predict the future, they are life and death and the land in which they are embodied is the love the Universe shows for the spirit (Might be Ni+Fe?) . Everything is personalized too but not by the raw connection the person had with experience but a finer appreciation. One of my suppositions is that if you put Ni in the video with the ISTJ (the one about Si impressionistic video of the swamp), instead of connecting it so strongly with how it feels about it, it would say that sunrises represent the ascension of the soul called by a greater meaning or they would not be able to express what they truly see but shift to a greater understanding. Si wants it to be the same swamp over the years, Ni wants to see the swamp recreate itself through time so it gains understanding on how this world truly works and what that could represent in relation to its purpose. Si tends to minimize to a personal meaning, Ni wants to enlarge on an internal framework. 

Usually if you do not have the absolute, resolute sharpness of the Ni convictions ( "this is WHAT IS ACTUALLY IS and no other secondary meaning could enlarge the idea that has already been created"), you might be using Ne instead of Ni as intuition functions, Ne understands other points of view, Ni is not feeling secure with allowing other ideas in as it scatters them from their purpose.


----------



## Psychopomp

Oswin said:


> Ok, I don't know a lot about Mother Theresa and this video is taking a really long time to get to the point (and the guy's manner was starting to piss me off; "Her cult of death and suffering" because normal 1st world medical procedures were not being followed in a 3rd world country? Unless he was leading up to another better point about a cult of death and suffering, but I only watched about halfway through before I got too annoyed/angry. Cutting from the old woman who seems so kind and genuine and full of light to this toadlike man (no offense) saying cruel things about her was a poor artistic choice.
> 
> As I said, I don't have a strong opinion or much knowledge about Mother Teresa but I think it's a huge stretch to be using her as an example of 'kinda evil'.


Hehe, I spent a fair amount of time with a similar opinion of Christopher Hitchens as you... but, in time not only did I get over his abrasive demeanor and intense hyperbole, but I've come to rather have a deep affection for him. He was a really cool guy, but he sure didn't mince words or give people that he felt were dishonest or lacking integrity much leeway or sympathy. He shows Te/Fi very well and in very strong terms... for good and for bad. 

He offers some very strong and very objective criticisms of Teresa... and it cuts through our natural tendency to mollify and, well, no offense, to judge off appearance alone without due diligence and reason. The irony is that in all probability, that toad was an honest soul who has done immeasurable good (by actively and passionately fighting real evils in the world - though perhaps too stridently at times, but certainly benevolently and insightfully) and that kindly looking old lady may have contributed to scores of unnecessary deaths and a continuation of backward thinking that not only fails to lift the poor to a better place but actively encourages them to accept their terribly hopeless lot - with eternal promises that she has made no effort to prove. 

I am sure it is more nuanced than that, of course.... but I'd personally take a Hitchens over a Teresa any day. One tells me to fight evil and ignorance with passion and intellect... the other tells me to turn off my brain and get in line and accept suffering and poverty as the will of the universe for me. 



Oswin said:


> Or...we're not saying debatey things, just hugging?
> (I always feel uncomfortable because I reply to comments before reading the rest of the thread and seeing how the mood's changed...crap Fe)
> Anyways...if @_arkigos_ or @_tine_ or anyone want to switch from typing alittlebear to typing me, I'm 100% open to it) As well as working on @_shinynotshiny_ of courseI'm just so close to finding my type!
> Anyways, I apologize if I was part of the problem (I'm still confused about what the problem is, don't explain, just don't have it anymore plz) and...hope everything is ok with this thread.
> Have some earnest yet awkward Fe:


Why are you questioning ISFJ? I've never had thought to question it - at least not SFJ. What's nagging at you?


----------



## owlet

@shinynotshiny I remember @emberfly did a really good post on the difference between Si and Ni in terms of turning on a light switch, but I've forgotten exactly how it was phrased.
Another way to look at it is by Ne vs Se to see which you use least/most.
@Oswin I think you seem to use Ne-Si, plus Fe-Ti, but I'm not sure which order. Maybe you're an ESFJ with a good grasp of all your functions? How do you view your Ti or Ne usage?


----------



## Dangerose

arkigos said:


> Hehe, I spent a fair amount of time with a similar opinion of Christopher Hitchens as you... but, in time not only did I get over his abrasive demeanor and intense hyperbole, but I've come to rather have a deep affection for him. He was a really cool guy, but he sure didn't mince words or give people that he felt were dishonest or lacking integrity much leeway or sympathy. He shows Te/Fi very well and in very strong terms... for good and for bad.
> 
> He offers some very strong and very objective criticisms of Teresa... and it cuts through our natural tendency to mollify and, well, no offense, to judge off appearance alone without due diligence and reason. The irony is that in all probability, that toad was an honest soul who has done immeasurable good (by actively and passionately fighting real evils in the world - though perhaps too stridently at times, but certainly benevolently and insightfully) and that kindly looking old lady may have contributed to scores of unnecessary deaths and a continuation of backward thinking that not only fails to lift the poor to a better place but actively encourages them to accept their terribly hopeless lot - with eternal promises that she has made no effort to prove.
> 
> I am sure it is more nuanced than that, of course.... but I'd personally take a Hitchens over a Teresa any day. One tells me to fight evil and ignorance with passion and intellect... the other tells me to turn off my brain and get in line and accept suffering and poverty as the will of the universe for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you questioning ISFJ? I've never had thought to question it - at least not SFJ. What's nagging at you?


In almost total ignorance of both these people, here are my thoughts:
Poverty and suffering are never going to end. Trying to end and fix poverty and suffering is obviously important. But it's not going to end not just practically, but because human beings are made to suffer. People who live in billion-dollar mansions and have servants attending to their every need still suffer. We all have a duty to help people who are less fortunate than ourselves...or, just to help people. But filling their stomachs is only putting a band-aid on the problems if we are not also healing their souls. The wheel of fortune is constantly turning, but if people can find meaning and comfort in suffering, if they can be a good person, if they can find joy in existence, that is infinitely more important than other concerns. Admittedly I am religious but I think my argument stands in a secular stance as well? 

Also, I don't agree that 'appearance' says absolutely nothing. In my experience, there are certain deeply spiritual people (not just Christians; I have actually noticed it the most with Hindus and Buddhists) who just appear to be filled with light, and I have no reason to believe that they are not. I don't think it is an illusion; I think it is a true impression. I recall that one time I was feeling very spiritual, semi-enlightened I literally felt like I was radiating light. It was a very unusual experience, can't describe it without sounding incredibly conceited and lunatic, but I really felt like I had all this light inside myself that I could give to others, and that day I literally had two (innocent invalidy) people come up to me on the street and (non-creepily) and said I was beautiful and asked if they could touch me? And it was all not weird and not creepy? Anyways, having (very briefly) experienced this being-full-of-light thing I think it seems valid when I look at people who seem to be full of light? And Mother Teresa seems that way.

Same with toadness to be honest) I don't think I've ever personally felt like a toad (except in the colloquial sense) but personal experience has taught me to trust my opinion about toad-people. (Last person I thought was a toad turned out to be a con artist...) However, I'm probably not going to watch any more of this guy and I'm willing to take your word for it that he's all right))

Anyways...I'm hung up on SFJ because my Fe is _just so bad._ I'm literally the most awkward and not-knowing-what-to-say person ever. And selfish. Really selfish. (I know that's not exactly Fi...but in my case I think it might be affected by it). I'm also not convinced I don't use Fi. And as I was saying to tine, I'm no longer positive I use Si and not Se (I'm pretty sure I'm a sensor though...I'm too in love with beauty and the world not to be. Right now the functions make 0 sense to me so I don't want to say much more.

Would you consider my answer to this question Fe or Fi?



* *





So I can't find it to quote, but @tine asked me many pages back how I deal with someone being sad.
The other day I was at work (I help a woman with Alzheimer's) and she started talking about her husband's death and how just like that her perfect marriage was over. It was very affecting.

Externally: I was trying not to cry, but show sympathy. I wanted to encourage her to talk about it because she doesn't open up about these things and I feel it is good for her to express these things, so I was asking little questions. I also found myself not knowing what to say and repeating little platitudes but I always try to keep that at the minimum. I tried to end the conversation on a note of appreciating the good the man had done and some stuff about her children and grandchildren, but I knew realistically that nothing I was going to say was going to make her feel better about her husband's death and I thought the best thing was to let her express these emotions and reflections out loud and maybe work through it a little, so I considered my presence there as mostly an instrument for her expression

Internally: I was very affected by the pathos of what she was saying and also a little impressed at the poetry in it. I was reflecting on how she was feeling, imagining her life and honestly a little grateful for the clearer glimpse into her life. I was also feeling sad for myself (and obviously feeling very selfish about that as well), because I'm not married and even if I do get married I could be widowed, and I was thinking about how in stories it usually ends with the marriage and you forget that those things end, I was imagining my favorite fictional characters at the end of their lives. I was feeling connected to this woman, and feeling frustrated and sad about the way that even though I felt love for her, not being related to her or close enough to her to tell her this, and then I was thinking a. About doctors/caregivers who work in senior homes, and if they feel a similar way, and b. About how many people at the end of their life end up in an institution or place where the people around them aren't close to them, and no one tells them they love them, and I started to write a song in my head with a chorus with the line "No one can say I love you anymore" and I explored the options with this a bit, but primarily my focus was on feeling sad for her.

It's funny, not sure if relevant, but a few weeks ago I freaked out about something maybe work-related, and I was talking to my mother trying to figure out what was wrong, and at some point I was talking about work and how I kind-of felt like the bad guy at my job, and I started crying and talking about some of the things I was thinking about it, and she suddenly asked me, "Does your job make you sad?" and I said no, but then I realized that yes, my job does make me sad. I hadn't realized it, I hadn't even been feeling invested in my job at all, and it seems really obvious that working with an Alzheimer's patient would make me sad, but I hadn't even noticed it until my mother pointed it out.




sorry if this post was weird. I'm not that weird I promise


----------



## Dangerose

> @Oswin I think you seem to use Ne-Si, plus Fe-Ti, but I'm not sure which order. Maybe you're an ESFJ with a good grasp of all your functions? How do you view your Ti or Ne usage?


I have no idea. No idea. Noooo idea.
I need other people to do the analysis for me for a bit (pretty please?) until I get my brain back on track. I _do_ know my Ti isn't that great (I think? I don't know. I don't even know which things I know and which things I don't know).


----------



## Darkbloom

@Oswin,I'm always sceptical when someone says they have bad Fe,my ISFJ friend always says she's terrible with people and awkward but omg,no way,I witnessed her "awkward" moments and literally everyone gets those sometimes,you just don't notice other peope's.She's actually charming,yeah,in introvert-ish way mostly(still,could buy Fe dom for her if she didn't have obvious inferior Ne) but everyone in my family that met her later told me she's really likable and well-spoken,her boyfriend and basically everyone who talks to her says so too.


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Oswin</a></i></span>,I'm always sceptical when someone says they have bad Fe,my ISFJ friend always says she's terrible with people and awkward but omg,no way,I witnessed her "awkward" moments and literally everyone gets those sometimes,you just don't notice other peope's.She's actually charming,yeah,in introvert-ish way mostly(still,could buy Fe dom for her if she didn't have obvious inferior Ne) but everyone in my family that met her later told me she's really likable and well-spoken,her boyfriend and basically everyone who talks to her says so too.


This is me though

* *














I promise, I'm not exaggerating. I literally can't get through a conversation..._with my friends_...without apologizing 500 times. I want to be social and have friends and stuff...but I _don't know how to talk to people. _ In elementary school, I spent all my time playing with my only friends, the ants, on the sidewalk, because I didn't know how to join in the games the other kids and I was terrified of going up and asking them if I could join, I was positive they wouldn't want me there. Literally all group pictures are like this with me:









This picture is like representative of my whole life

edit: Found more pictures of me creepily looking onto other people's conversations or standing 3 feet away from the group while dressed radically differently


----------



## 68097

Funny thing, high Fe. We think we suck, and we're terrible with people. But go ask someone who knows you. "You're so good with people," they'll say. "I don't know how you do it, but you just know how to put them at ease!" 

REALLY?!? we think. That's not how I see it!

Ah, but we do not live in REALITY, and our self-perception is dreadful. Or at least, mine is, since what I think of myself seems to match no one else in my life's perception of me. 

I see myself as insecure, neurotic, fearful, and bad with people. My dad sees me as strong, confident in my opinions, able to think fast on my feet, and a "natural" in "understanding people and knowing how to appeal to them." It baffles him that I can do that. So ... our own self-assessments are often way harsher than they need be, particularly if we are inclined toward perfectionism or measuring ourselves against some invisible standard of perfect behavior. 

A lot of what's going on in this thread is related to low self esteem, as opposed to functions. Over-apologizing, for one. It saddens me to see it, because everyone is special, and ought to be loved for who they are, regardless of whatever toes they step on. Our world, in general, is much too sensitive and easily offended. Still, we don't need to profusely apologize all the time.

Still, what do I know? I think of myself as this most of the time:










LOL


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat yep. Since I was a kid, I got into trouble for over-apologizing. I just couldn't stop. I do it now when I'm not comfortable with people, or when... Can't even recall five specific apologies on here, but I guess I apologize when I sense tension, but in real life I've gotten a lot better I think about not apologizing as much. You just have to find ways to not do stuff you would have to apologize for.


----------



## 68097

@alittlebear: I hope you can relax about your type, and just see this thread (if it continues on, until it swallows the whole of PerC and becomes a leviathan of the sea) as a continuing discussion of cognitive functions -- not specifically directed at you. If you can do that, I think your stress over the thread will lessen, since ... a lot of what's happening here isn't really directed at you so much anymore (we have what, four people asking to be typed? most of them SFJs!). 

One of my friends once told me that I should shoulder less responsibility when people are upset; she said, "You always think it's all your fault, and that you are to blame, and you're not." (She was an ESFP. Just as nice as me, sometimes more so, but with that Te objectivity.) I used to apologize a lot more than I do now, but I realized that a lot of it wasn't ... authentic. I didn't mean it. I was just apologizing to placate, keep the peace, whatever. I only apologize now if I hurt someone and really do feel bad about it. But I'm learning to assert myself better, and accept that if a misunderstanding happens, it's not automatically my fault. Their INTERPRETATION of what I said, and them reading into my comments things I DID NOT MEAN is not my fault -- that's all on them. They should take responsibility for it, if half the problem is theirs. 

I hate conflict, angst, fighting, etc. But I also think people need to be responsible for their reactions to things. Own their emotions. 

You don't have to apologize a lot. Neither does @Oswin, or anyone else on this thread. You are safe here, and you are liked. Be yourself.


----------



## Dangerose

^I second this (gahh @angelcat you put things so well and thank you for the bit about me!)
Are you convinced I am an SFJ?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat Yes, I'm feeling a lot calmer now. I don't know how much longer it will last, but... Yes, I think maybe just discussing functions in general and seeing others find their type will probably help me more than other things have.

But thank you for your words. They are kind and appreciated. I will try to remember ^^


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> ^I second this (gahh @angelcat you put things so well and thank you for the bit about me!)
> Are you convinced I am an SFJ?


Not _convinced_, but I haven't seen anything to really suggest strongly otherwise.


----------



## Greyhart

I went to sleep and things happen. :dry:

First of all it didn't occur to me that there' Fe--Ti and Ti--Fe disconnect between you two. I forget myself and go all clinically detached on people too sometimes. Highly disturbs my FJ friends. FP friends react to me discussing methods of disposing bodies over the dinner table like this:








Bless those chill bastards.

Anyway it's funny because it's how I am too - I can drag the same debate forever until other party gets frustrated and leaves.

So about cognitive functions. I think @arkigos is overly-attached to Jung's exact interpretations. If we moved on and expanded on Darwin's theory I see not reason not to do the same with basically everything. Additionally Jung was a ~weeeird~ Ni dom himself. I see his "descriptions" as an intensely-concentrated (no small thanks to his Ni) sum of traits he saw in people. For "average" person of any type I expect to have a variety of shades in intensity/depth of functions.

On unrelated notes:
a). I tried to play "Where's Waldo?" with my likely falcon screechy bird outside but I am worse at this than with actual Waldo.
b). Rewatching The Blair Witch Project and I hate it even more than I did the first time. What the hell is this shit? Why is it considered classics? Three dumbasses get lots in the forest for no reason, kick some stones, hear noises and then one disappears and the last frame is a dude facing a corner in some forest hut??! WHAT DOES IT MEAN?! What happened? Are we supposed to assume they are dead? HOW THEY ARE DEAD?! I HATE HORROR MOVIES THAT DON'T EXPLAIN THEIR MYTHOLOGY!!! This is infuriating. I demand explanations. Like that "Animal" movie I've watched recently. I got hooked because of the poster and monster's design is awesome but then I sat through entire people panicking and dying and got no explanation of what that thing even is?! Are we supposed to assume it's a military experiment that ran away because soon-to-be-dead dumbasses found a military backpack in the beginning?! FRUSTRATING.


----------



## Psychopomp

Oswin said:


> In almost total ignorance of both these people, here are my thoughts:
> Poverty and suffering are never going to end. Trying to end and fix poverty and suffering is obviously important. But it's not going to end not just practically, but because human beings are made to suffer. People who live in billion-dollar mansions and have servants attending to their every need still suffer. We all have a duty to help people who are less fortunate than ourselves...or, just to help people. But filling their stomachs is only putting a band-aid on the problems if we are not also healing their souls. The wheel of fortune is constantly turning, but if people can find meaning and comfort in suffering, if they can be a good person, if they can find joy in existence, that is infinitely more important than other concerns. Admittedly I am religious but I think my argument stands in a secular stance as well?
> 
> Also, I don't agree that 'appearance' says absolutely nothing. In my experience, there are certain deeply spiritual people (not just Christians; I have actually noticed it the most with Hindus and Buddhists) who just appear to be filled with light, and I have no reason to believe that they are not. I don't think it is an illusion; I think it is a true impression. I recall that one time I was feeling very spiritual, semi-enlightened I literally felt like I was radiating light. It was a very unusual experience, can't describe it without sounding incredibly conceited and lunatic, but I really felt like I had all this light inside myself that I could give to others, and that day I literally had two (innocent invalidy) people come up to me on the street and (non-creepily) and said I was beautiful and asked if they could touch me? And it was all not weird and not creepy? Anyways, having (very briefly) experienced this being-full-of-light thing I think it seems valid when I look at people who seem to be full of light? And Mother Teresa seems that way.
> 
> Same with toadness to be honest) I don't think I've ever personally felt like a toad (except in the colloquial sense) but personal experience has taught me to trust my opinion about toad-people. (Last person I thought was a toad turned out to be a con artist...) However, I'm probably not going to watch any more of this guy and I'm willing to take your word for it that he's all right))
> 
> Anyways...I'm hung up on SFJ because my Fe is _just so bad._ I'm literally the most awkward and not-knowing-what-to-say person ever. And selfish. Really selfish. (I know that's not exactly Fi...but in my case I think it might be affected by it). I'm also not convinced I don't use Fi. And as I was saying to tine, I'm no longer positive I use Si and not Se (I'm pretty sure I'm a sensor though...I'm too in love with beauty and the world not to be. Right now the functions make 0 sense to me so I don't want to say much more.
> 
> Would you consider my answer to this question Fe or Fi?
> 
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I can't find it to quote, but @_tine_ asked me many pages back how I deal with someone being sad.
> The other day I was at work (I help a woman with Alzheimer's) and she started talking about her husband's death and how just like that her perfect marriage was over. It was very affecting.
> 
> Externally: I was trying not to cry, but show sympathy. I wanted to encourage her to talk about it because she doesn't open up about these things and I feel it is good for her to express these things, so I was asking little questions. I also found myself not knowing what to say and repeating little platitudes but I always try to keep that at the minimum. I tried to end the conversation on a note of appreciating the good the man had done and some stuff about her children and grandchildren, but I knew realistically that nothing I was going to say was going to make her feel better about her husband's death and I thought the best thing was to let her express these emotions and reflections out loud and maybe work through it a little, so I considered my presence there as mostly an instrument for her expression
> 
> Internally: I was very affected by the pathos of what she was saying and also a little impressed at the poetry in it. I was reflecting on how she was feeling, imagining her life and honestly a little grateful for the clearer glimpse into her life. I was also feeling sad for myself (and obviously feeling very selfish about that as well), because I'm not married and even if I do get married I could be widowed, and I was thinking about how in stories it usually ends with the marriage and you forget that those things end, I was imagining my favorite fictional characters at the end of their lives. I was feeling connected to this woman, and feeling frustrated and sad about the way that even though I felt love for her, not being related to her or close enough to her to tell her this, and then I was thinking a. About doctors/caregivers who work in senior homes, and if they feel a similar way, and b. About how many people at the end of their life end up in an institution or place where the people around them aren't close to them, and no one tells them they love them, and I started to write a song in my head with a chorus with the line "No one can say I love you anymore" and I explored the options with this a bit, but primarily my focus was on feeling sad for her.
> 
> It's funny, not sure if relevant, but a few weeks ago I freaked out about something maybe work-related, and I was talking to my mother trying to figure out what was wrong, and at some point I was talking about work and how I kind-of felt like the bad guy at my job, and I started crying and talking about some of the things I was thinking about it, and she suddenly asked me, "Does your job make you sad?" and I said no, but then I realized that yes, my job does make me sad. I hadn't realized it, I hadn't even been feeling invested in my job at all, and it seems really obvious that working with an Alzheimer's patient would make me sad, but I hadn't even noticed it until my mother pointed it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry if this post was weird. I'm not that weird I promise


If this post is any indication, you are an Si-dom. Functionally speaking, there is nothing saying that you must have a strongly conscious or strongly unconscious auxiliary function.... so, you'd be a Ti but not particularly, an Fe but not excessively, and an Ne but not notably. You'd be all of these things, but mainly just ruled by your perceptions which would be very private and 'private world' stuff, but with a sensory bent. Note, though, that your 'inner light' perceptions are fundamentally sensory and a really interesting and good example of what I'd expect from an Si-dom. 

Your last post (rather, the one I last quoted) seemed to hint Fe/Ti - as it was the appropriateness and agreeability of each person was what was focused on. The critical analysis was of little interest, but who was Good and Bad was more of a concern. This was done basically on demeanor and appearance, but nevertheless felt objective. Aka, it is unlikely, from that, that you are a Te/Fi - though, again, maybe it is all just relatively 'undifferentiated' and suppressed. 

So, lest we create a false dilemma, I'd ask: if your Fe is no good, then how is your Te? Objective critical observations... sizing up objects by objective criteria. Observing and following logical 'formulas' - which might be plans or just common sense. Is that a strength? If not, what is?


----------



## Greyhart

My ISFJ friend thinks she awkward and bad with people too. Yeaaah, right. Self-perception is shit.


----------



## Immolate

NobleRaven said:


> Si and Ni are different. Si loves its past because it has the tendency to store the beauty and the malice from the past, every sensation will be stored and loved because it is a deep appreciation towards the world they live in, they were nourished in an environment therefore they take it with themselves in great detail. I often see Si users recalling who they were with in a situation, where they were, how the wind was blowing and it made them feel cold, or the light was too bright and it made them feel down, it is all based on the interior of the person and how he interacted with the outside, they know what foods relax them or what stresses them, who cooks their favourite food because it is all personalized. *Si creates a huge world based on idealistic personal mythologies which help them cope with the outside world because the outside can be terrifying.* In times of crisis they will often think about a past situation when the same issue arrived but they managed to escape through different methods, the past situation with a good flavour will help them understand the new situation with an unknown flavour because they will have a known starting point. Si is the function of storage in terms of sensorial impressions, they remember songs they have heard 20 years ago, voices they have heard before, books read in a different period. *If you attack their past, you are prone to ruining an entire imperium stacked up with appreciation and pain as their cognition tries to recreate the same frame of imagery from their past.*


I understand this description the most, but I would say I'm the opposite when it comes to the outside world and idealistic mythologies. Yes, the outside world can be volatile and unstable, but I accept it for what it is and prefer to acknowledge the reality of the situation rather than sugarcoat it for the sake of comfort. I'm dissatisfied with the world in several ways because I know it doesn't or can't live up to the idealistic image I have in my mind. In this way I can be very pessimistic. My past is my past, and although I sometimes find myself dwelling on ghosts, my goal is to leave it all behind because the past is immature.



NobleRaven said:


> Ni is not coping so well with its past because it has a futuristic mindset, it acts in a different way, they store intuitive archetypes, strong internal imagery which has no connection with the actual representation of the outside, they create huge relationships between the human mind/soul/core and the flow of the Universe, one of the most frequent Ni thoughts is how the Universe was in a perfect state before the Bing Bang, but physics ruined its core and it was dammed to change unlike Ne which is more than happy to see the Universe expanding as it hides a ton of possibilities which it can think of. Ni also uses a different comparison, knowledge is energy, *the soul is force*, they have a different taste, a different flow which helps them predict the future, they are life and death and the land in which they are embodied is the* love the Universe shows for the spirit (Might be Ni+Fe?)* . Everything is personalized too but not by the raw connection the person had with experience but a finer appreciation. One of my suppositions is that if you put Ni in the video with the ISTJ (the one about Si impressionistic video of the swamp), instead of connecting it so strongly with how it feels about it, it would say that* sunrises represent the ascension of the soul called by a greater meaning or they would not be able to express what they truly see but shift to a greater understanding*. Si wants it to be the same swamp over the years, Ni wants to see the swamp recreate itself through time so it gains understanding on how this world truly works and what that could represent in relation to its purpose. Si tends to minimize to a personal meaning, Ni wants to enlarge on an internal framework.
> 
> Usually if you do not have the absolute, resolute sharpness of the Ni convictions ( "this is WHAT IS ACTUALLY IS and no other secondary meaning could enlarge the idea that has already been created"), you might be using Ne instead of Ni as intuition functions, Ne understands other points of view, Ni is not feeling secure with allowing other ideas in as it scatters them from their purpose.


The bold is the kind of Ni/Fe I have trouble with. There's a sense of romance that goes against my extroverted thinking, and if we're to take the concept of the soul literally for the sake of conversation, I'm forced to admit I don't believe in souls. Our sense of origin and oneness doesn't come from an intangible soul, but from our minds and our shared ignorance of everything that is. We were created by the same stuff and we'll break apart into the same stuff. That's what death means to me: our minds, our souls, ceasing to exist and our bodies breaking down into its smaller bits and pieces and continuing to exist in that way. 

You could say I view the soul as impermanent, and that impermanence is what makes it significant and worth protecting. When I think about it, I am my mind, and my mind is the product of my brain, and my brain is powered by such things as chemical and electrical reactions. Poke or hurt my brain in a specific region and you can replace who I am with someone else. Give me a certain drug and I can drown in a flurry of happiness. The fact that we can be reduced to such things as biological reactions is incredible to me. What's even more incredible is what that sunset tells us, that we have so much thought and feeling and yet we're specks of dust in the grander scheme of things. The sun rising and setting is a show of greater forces at work.

All that embarrassing brain vomit aside, I don't want the swamp to remain the same. I want it to change itself and also change what it inspires in me.

I might come back to this post because I only just woke up and ergh coffee.


----------



## 68097

@shinynotshiny... I miss your old avatar. I liked it.

@Greyhart: best way to dispose of bodies is a liquid chemical bath. Turn 'em into swamp water and then chuck it, or flush it.

Re: kicking into the Mother T. argument... I think it's wrong to encourage people just to settle into their lot, without hoping for better things, but it's also wrong to implant in them unrealistic ideas of reality -- to encourage them to think that their poverty will go away, when it won't, for example. Her priority was not enlightenment; it was to provide for people. Care for people. Dutiful hands.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> My ISFJ friend thinks she awkward and bad with people too. Yeaaah, right. Self-perception is shit.


What about counterphobic 6w7 ISFJs?  Kidding. But I did watch Gurren Lagann last night, and Kamina reminded me of myself a lot. We have a similar attitude to things, to be fair. But he is more of an asshat/idiot than I am. But I know he means well.

I did like how he helped Simon and encouraged him to break free with him, and I also liked how he gave him priority over the machine, and stood up to the chief, but yeah. I do tend to make myself appear more confident than I am. I tend to hide my anxiety behind things.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> @_shinynotshiny_... I miss your old avatar. I liked it.
> @_Greyhart_: best way to dispose of bodies is a liquid bath. Turn 'em into swamp water and then chuck it, or flush it.
> 
> Re: kicking into the Mother T. argument... I think it's wrong to encourage people just to settle into their lot, without hoping for better things, but it's also wrong to implant in them unrealistic ideas of reality -- to encourage them to think that their poverty will go away, when it won't, for example. Her priority was not enlightenment; it was to provide for people. Care for people. Dutiful hands.


No love for Ron Swanson


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> My ISFJ friend thinks she awkward and bad with people too. Yeaaah, right. Self-perception is shit.


I'm convinced I'm the most awkward thing, but for me I don't think it's so false. My ISFJ friend fits in a lot more than she thinks she does, though. Some people are naturally likable and flowing, and she's one of those people.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> No love for Ron Swanson


I thought the whole show was going to be about Ron. I was mildly disappointed that it wasn't. Leslie is cute, but Ron's entire existence is hilarious.


----------



## TimeWaster

angelcat said:


> Interesting, isn't it? That closeness of functions makes it impossible to just go with the flow and not be strong-willed, and yet ISFJs are most often routinely accused of that very thing.
> 
> Hmm. Maybe all the stereotypes are... wrong.


I doubt it.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I thought the whole show was going to be about Ron. I was mildly disappointed that it wasn't. Leslie is cute, but Ron's entire existence is hilarious.


I like TREAT YOSELF duo and happy puppy grumpy cat pair. :tongue:



alittlebear said:


> I'm convinced I'm the most awkward thing, but for me I don't think it's so false. My ISFJ friend fits in a lot more than she thinks she does, though. Some people are naturally likable and flowing, and she's one of those people.


The things is, when you are truly awkward & bad with people you often don't actually notice that. This is kind of a point.



angelcat said:


> @Greyhart: best way to dispose of bodies is a liquid chemical bath. Turn 'em into swamp water and then chuck it, or flush it.


You need to have a bath & the chemicals. :tongue: Not always easily accessible. I watch too many murder shows because most mystery shows are about that. :| And since I like to bring up what I'm watching currently I forget that talking about dead people over a food can be uncomfortable.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I like TREAT YOSELF duo and happy puppy grumpy cat pair. :tongue:


you mean?


----------



## AdInfinitum

shinynotshiny said:


> I understand this description the most, but I would say I'm the opposite when it comes to the outside world and idealistic mythologies. Yes, the outside world can be volatile and unstable, but I accept it for what it is and prefer to acknowledge the reality of the situation rather than sugarcoat it for the sake of comfort. I'm dissatisfied with the world in several ways because I know it doesn't or can't live up to the idealistic image I have in my mind. In this way I can be very pessimistic. My past is my past, and although I sometimes find myself dwelling on ghosts, my goal is to leave it all behind because the past is immature.
> 
> 
> 
> The bold is the kind of Ni/Fe I have trouble with. There's a sense of romance that goes against my extroverted thinking, and if we're to take the concept of the soul literally for the sake of conversation, I'm forced to admit I don't believe in souls. Our sense of origin and oneness doesn't come from an intangible soul, but from our minds and our shared ignorance of everything that is. We were created by the same stuff and we'll break apart into the same stuff. That's what death means to me: our minds, our souls, ceasing to exist and our bodies breaking down into its smaller bits and pieces and continuing to exist in that way.
> 
> You could say I view the soul as impermanent, and that impermanence is what makes it significant and worth protecting. When I think about it, I am my mind, and my mind is the product of my brain, and my brain is powered by such things as chemical and electrical reactions. Poke or hurt my brain in a specific region and you can replace who I am with someone else. Give me a certain drug and I can drown in a flurry of happiness. The fact that we can be reduced to such things as biological reactions is incredible to me. What's even more incredible is what that sunset tells us, that we have so much thought and feeling and yet we're specks of dust in the grander scheme of things. The sun rising and setting is a show of greater forces at work.
> 
> All that embarrassing brain vomit aside, I don't want the swamp to remain the same. I want it to change itself and also change what it inspires in me.
> 
> I might come back to this post because I only just woke up and ergh coffee.


I have such a terrible memory, I remember I saw the most beautiful Ni post somewhere in the cognitive functions thread, it explained exactly what I am trying to bring up.

One of the more concise descriptions is taken in this:



> All processes take place in time; they have their roots in the past and their continuation in the future. Time is the correlation between events that follow each other. This perceptual element provides information about the sequence of events and people's deeds, about their cause and effect relationship, and about participants' attitudes towards this — that is, about people's feelings that these relationships engender.
> Such an individual perceives information from without as feelings about the future, past, and present. For example, a sense of hurriedness, calmness, or heatedness, a sense of timeliness or prematureness, a sense of proper or improper life rhythm, a sense of impending danger or safety, anticipation, fear of being late, a sense of seeing the future, anxiety about what lies ahead, and so forth. At any given moment of one's life one has such a sense of time. One cannot live outside of time or be indifferent toward it. Thus, a certain sense of time is an integral part of the individual's psychological state at any given moment. This perceptual element defines a person's ability or inability to forecast and plan for the future, evade all sorts of troubles, avoid taking wrong actions, and learn from past experience.
> When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses innate strategic abilities and is able to choose the most optimal moments for different activities: when to give battle, if necessary, and when to avoid battle, when that would be more appropriate. Interaction in time might be interpreted as the ability to avoid collisions with objects and hence avoid objects' reflection within oneself.


You must have an acute understanding of time and internal imagery to use the external stimuli and recreate an insight. Ni is clearly based in the physical, continuous flow of the world, abstract underlying essence unlike Ne which dislikes time as it tends to limit its boundaries. Ni tries to bring everything to a common point where the most probable answer fits its vision, Ne has no vision but tons of points which create other ideals. Do you enjoy broadening ideas or do you enjoy one idea but extended into time and reality? Ne likes fantasy, Ni is into weirder psychological issues based on reality but an essential ideal of reality, how everything blends together kind of ideal.

EDIT: I loved Ron.


----------



## Immolate

NobleRaven said:


> You must have an acute understanding of time and internal imagery to use the external stimuli and recreate an insight. Ni is clearly based in the physical, continuous flow of the world, abstract underlying essence unlike Ne which dislikes time as it tends to limit its boundaries. Ni tries to bring everything to a common point where the most probable answer fits its vision, Ne has no vision but tons of points which create other ideals. *Do you enjoy broadening ideas or do you enjoy one idea but extended into time and reality?* Ne likes fantasy, Ni is into weirder psychological issues based on reality but an essential ideal of reality, how everything blends together kind of ideal.
> 
> EDIT: I loved Ron.


Not sure if it's a rhetorical question, but I prefer the one idea.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Oswin,that sounds like chronic low self-esteem and feeling unwelcome (which btw _you_ have no reason to feel,emphasis on you because trust me,there's people who should feel unwelcome yet they never do)
You being Fi or lower Fe doesn't go with it any better than FJ does.


----------



## AdInfinitum

shinynotshiny said:


> Not sure if it's a rhetorical question, but I prefer the one idea.


What do you fear more? The Unknown or intense physical sensations as you tend to either overindulge or avoid them? Do you have a slight need for power and discovering the world as it is? What tends to drain you? Are you ever physically reckless? Do you have a vision about the future which you truly want to accomplish but you fear actually indulging into your environment?


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> you mean?











Yes.

I mean these 2









But these 2 work too though I'd call them happy retriever and a stressed cat.


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## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Always a chance to learn, right? (To be honest, how you phrased that came across as aggressive even to me and I'm not the most sensitive soul.)
> 
> Anyway, Ti does seem to have more of a tendency to question in the way it tries to work out each minute detail so that it can effectively develop its system, or include/categorise new information into said system. Te will ask questions generally to the point that it understands enough for the new thing to be useful.


Like each variable in question stands on it's own for Te while Ti will try to connect it?


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## Darkbloom

@Curiphant,only thing I can't see is Ne dom/aux and probably not Ni dom/aux,all S could work but I'd assume ESFP given that you seem like a Fi/Te feeler and not introvert or inferior Te.
Gonna read more of your posts tomorrow


----------



## fair phantom

Living dead said:


> Tbh I personally learned the most from socionics obsessed people insisting on finding my type through socionics, I don't know that much other than that their type descriptions actually make sense,as well as quadra descriptions.Tomorrow I'm gonna try to find some things others gave me when figuring out my type!


Thank you! :hug:


----------



## orbit

Living dead said:


> @Curiphant,only thing I can't see is Ne dom/aux and probably not Ni dom/aux,all S could work but I'd assume ESFP given that you seem like a Fi/Te feeler and not introvert or inferior Te.
> Gonna read more of your posts tomorrow


Okay thank you! 

---
You know I think Arkigos would make a good questing master

So would alittlebear. Can you imagine that?

Greyhart would be a good... Introducer? Or that like one characters that gives you so many clues you don't know which ones are true or false

I don't know much about video games but


----------



## orbit

Oh whoops internet double posted something from way back when


----------



## Max

Yeah, I know I am on a break (yes, I am not quitting the forums, just barely posting, lurking, generally zoning out and giving my mind a well-deserved break).

But I had a thought. 
Can an xSFJ come across as xSTP like, especially if they have well developed Ti, or is my mind bullshitting me again?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Goose, ask all the questions.
> 
> I'm so tired, guys.


Why am I always so late....

do you still want the questions??


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, I know I am on a break (yes, I am not quitting the forums, just barely posting, lurking, generally zoning out and giving my mind a well-deserved break).
> 
> But I had a thought.
> Can an xSFJ come across as xSTP like, especially if they have well developed Ti, or is my mind bullshitting me again?


If you're in super Ti mode...maybe. But xSFJs are very different from xSTPs because of Si vs Se.


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

Ok, why is everybody posting on "type me" threads that were started ages ago and completely ignoring the one I just made?

http://personalitycafe.com/guess-type/562266-i-think-im-intp-but-people-seem-think-im-infp.html

Please help. I feel very insecure right now.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Why am I always so late....
> 
> 
> 
> do you still want the questions??



Of course


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Of course


One momento por va por ~


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@shinynotshiny,

NO MATTER how hard I try, I can come up with 50 bajillion questions about Si, but nothing about Ni. Maybe because to this day I still cannot understand Ni, but I understand Si fine because it's my tertiary function and I use it fairly often...


----------



## fair phantom

For Ni vs Si I think I came upon a distinction: when taking a personality quiz, my INFJ SO was thrown off by the option about "making predictions". This was clearly supposed to be the Ni choice, but he doesn't think of himself as "making predictions", even though he can often tell what will happen before it does (or he focuses to realize what he envisions/desires happen). "Prediction" for him suggested a conscious and concrete effort, using the known and expected to anticipate what will happen, which is more Si.

I hope some of that made sense.


----------



## owlet

fair phantom said:


> For Ni vs Si I think I came upon a distinction: when taking a personality quiz, my INFJ SO was thrown off by the option about "making predictions". This was clearly supposed to be the Ni choice, but he doesn't think of himself as "making predictions", even though he can often tell what will happen before it does (or he focuses to realize what he envisions/desires happen). "Prediction" for him suggested a conscious and concrete effort, using the known and expected to anticipate what will happen, which is more Si.
> 
> I hope some of that made sense.


I think that's very much the case, due to the fact the dominant function is usually so natural it's unconscious. I think I said previously that the only reason I considered Fi dominant was because my sister suggested it and gave evidence for it. I notice my Te more, because it's a less natural function, so I have to almost consciously use it.

Maybe this could be a good way of working out types? If you can notice which functions you seem to use, then see if the corresponding one (in the functional pair i.e. Fi-Te, Ni-Se) appears to come across as the dominant function.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> For Ni vs Si I think I came upon a distinction: when taking a personality quiz, my INFJ SO was thrown off by the option about "making predictions". This was clearly supposed to be the Ni choice, but he doesn't think of himself as "making predictions", even though he can often tell what will happen before it does (or he focuses to realize what he envisions/desires happen). "Prediction" for him suggested a conscious and concrete effort, using the known and expected to anticipate what will happen, which is more Si.
> 
> I hope some of that made sense.


This is a good point. I think Si suffers from this because descriptions are either too broad or too stereotyped. I would say Ni suffers from this because it can come off very mystical and otherworldly, something a thinking type might want to distance themselves from. For me, it's easier to understand Ni as an unconscious process of collecting information and putting it together in a way that fits but isn't obvious. These collected patterns bubble to the surface when you're working on a problem and the solution comes to you as if by magic. You already had the information, you just needed something to trigger it to conscious thought.

That's how I see Ni's predictions, anyway. I'm still trying to understand it.

Also, thanks for trying, @TelepathicGoose. No worries about the lack of questions


----------



## Dangerose

Hey -- could being _really_ bad at explaining oneself be a sign of Ti/inferior Ti? Just yesterday I was trying to explain to my mother something I'd been thinking about in regards to religion and such -- just a semi-philosophical/theological thing I'd been playing with. But I couldn't get there, I just kept trying to trace my thought processes, so that, because the original thing that sparked this thought was watching an interview about Will Arnett, I ended up explaining that interview along with why I watched it in the first place, then told her about this song that had sort of nudged my thoughts along, and some possibly-unrelated other streams of thought...I literally never got to the point where I was telling her the thoughts I was hoping to discuss, and now because I tried to say them out loud I'm really confused and don't even really remember what my original thoughts were; I just remember which part of the interview/the song/whatever led me to them.

Anyways, as I was doing this I noticed that my father does the exact same thing, and I was wondering if it was a Ti thing. I'd assumed it was a Pe thing when _he_ does it because the story's all over the place...but maybe it is Ti, lower Ti, or just poor thinking in general? Thoughts?


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> Hey -- could being _really_ bad at explaining oneself be a sign of Ti/inferior Ti? Just yesterday I was trying to explain to my mother something I'd been thinking about in regards to religion and such -- just a semi-philosophical/theological thing I'd been playing with. But I couldn't get there, I just kept trying to trace my thought processes, so that, because the original thing that sparked this thought was watching an interview about Will Arnett, I ended up explaining that interview along with why I watched it in the first place, then told her about this song that had sort of nudged my thoughts along, and some possibly-unrelated other streams of thought...I literally never got to the point where I was telling her the thoughts I was hoping to discuss, and now because I tried to say them out loud I'm really confused and don't even really remember what my original thoughts were; I just remember which part of the interview/the song/whatever led me to them.
> 
> Anyways, as I was doing this I noticed that my father does the exact same thing, and I was wondering if it was a Ti thing. I'd assumed it was a Pe thing when _he_ does it because the story's all over the place...but maybe it is Ti, lower Ti, or just poor thinking in general? Thoughts?


No idea but I can relate XD


----------



## owlet

Oswin said:


> Hey -- could being _really_ bad at explaining oneself be a sign of Ti/inferior Ti? Just yesterday I was trying to explain to my mother something I'd been thinking about in regards to religion and such -- just a semi-philosophical/theological thing I'd been playing with. But I couldn't get there, I just kept trying to trace my thought processes, so that, because the original thing that sparked this thought was watching an interview about Will Arnett, I ended up explaining that interview along with why I watched it in the first place, then told her about this song that had sort of nudged my thoughts along, and some possibly-unrelated other streams of thought...I literally never got to the point where I was telling her the thoughts I was hoping to discuss, and now because I tried to say them out loud I'm really confused and don't even really remember what my original thoughts were; I just remember which part of the interview/the song/whatever led me to them.
> 
> Anyways, as I was doing this I noticed that my father does the exact same thing, and I was wondering if it was a Ti thing. I'd assumed it was a Pe thing when _he_ does it because the story's all over the place...but maybe it is Ti, lower Ti, or just poor thinking in general? Thoughts?


It could be a sort of undeveloped Ti-Ne thing, being unable to prioritise information and so having to bring all of it into 'view' for the listener out of a concern (Fe?) they won't be able to otherwise understand. The less well-developed Ne would supply the sometimes tenuous connections between pieces of information and Ti would want to break it down into its 'essence', or something similar.


----------



## Greyhart

So things were getting heated and in a true type 7 fashion I bolted.









As a result I washed kitchen. Tried cleaning electric kettle with soda. Put too much soda. Went to take a shower. Came back. Table with the kettle on it is dripping with water and making sparks omg I noticed it 0,3 seconds before touching it. So I turned off electricity (via... fuses that shut down electric current int he entire house). Table was still sparking then I noticed it's not water that sparking but some brown spots?? Soda overheated and went into some kind of reaction with something??? I don't know a shit about chemistry. I want to know what happened T_T 









Anyway kettle is OK. Cleaned all whatever is the word for this stuff.
Went through a season of Stargate and half of monthly sudoku magazine. And canceled plans for weekend with friends because for the next two days there will be thunderstorms in my area. :'(
@alittlebear is ISJF
@Oswin is ESFJ @shinynotshiny ISTJ again

I am never trusting my perception of anything ever again.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> So things were getting heated and in a true type 7 fashion I bolted.


The thread suffered in your absence :'(


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Hi everyone...I think I may actually be an ENFP after all...
> @_LuchoIsLurking_ @_alittlebear_ @_shinynotshiny_ @_laurie17_ @_fair phantom_ @_shinynotshiny_ @_Greyhart_ @_Curiphant_ @_etc_


Hmmm.


----------



## orbit

Ahh
Sorry Goose >< Pick whichever one you feel more comfortable with ^^

I'm having a type dilemma myself by the way, so you are not alone (well on this thread you'll never be alone psh)


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Hmmm.


Something to do with the fact that I'm very outgoing, often overly goofy and weird (to the point where I actually make some of my friends uncomfortable... ), I realized that I actually use logic a lot more than I use my sensing function (and that I may have just been in the grip of Si back when I was depressed), the fact that my attention span is horrible, oh, and the fact that my mind is going at 500000 kilometers per hour.

I do need alone time, but doesn't everyone? 

I just...even the ENFP _description_ fits me overall better...


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Ahh
> Sorry Goose >< Pick whichever one you feel more comfortable with ^^
> 
> I'm having a type dilemma myself.


How so? Maybe I can help <3


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Something to do with the fact that I'm very outgoing, often overly goofy and weird (to the point where I actually make some of my friends uncomfortable... ), I realized that I actually use logic a lot more than I use my sensing function (and that I may have just been in the grip of Si back when I was depressed), the fact that my attention span is horrible, oh, and the fact that my mind is going at 500000 kilometers per hour.
> 
> I do need alone time, but doesn't everyone?
> 
> I just...even the ENFP _description_ fits me overall better...


It's interesting that you mention Si and depression. It seems Si can mimic certain behaviors of sadness/anxiety?

Anyhow, I think ENFP fits 

How do you make your friends uncomfortable?


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think I might actually be one of the most screwed up people in the world. Last night, I tried to get high on spices. Tonight, I am being my family's friend. Something's up. Is my coffee spiked?


I might go for a sugar rush high. I certainly wouldn't want to experiment with the likes of cayenne pepper.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> How so? Maybe I can help <3


Thanks ^^

The problem is I have no idea what functions I use beside Fi and Te (which changed because it's apparent I do not have Ti)

I thought ESFP like before but I watched a bunch of ESFPs but I didn't really relate to them and I don't relate to the descriptions so I'm kind of lost. If I really am an ESFP, then it's not very helpful because I'll know my type but I won't relate to the descriptions.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> It's interesting that you mention Si and depression. It seems Si can mimic certain behaviors of sadness/anxiety?
> 
> Anyhow, I think ENFP fits
> 
> How do you make your friends uncomfortable?


I believe I fall into the grip of Si when I'm depressed, which would make quite a bit of sense.

I think so as well, I think I only wanted to be an INFP because of how introversion is so alluring. 

They think I'm too weird, I guess my Ne ideas are too much for them...they don't understand where I'm coming from and my mind goes too fast for them.

I realize that in normalcy, I don't give a crap about the past. It's only when I'm depressed because something bad happened and I want to go to the past that I fall into Si more. Is this inferior Si, then?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Thanks ^^
> 
> The problem is I have no idea what functions I use beside Fi and Te (which changed because it's apparent I do not have Ti)
> 
> I thought ESFP like before but I watched a bunch of ESFPs but I didn't really relate to them and I don't relate to the descriptions so I'm kind of lost. If I really am an ESFP, then it's not very helpful because I'll know my type but I won't relate to the descriptions.


Hmm, well the Fi-Te axis contains 8 different types.

I'm pretty sure you're not a TJ, do you relate more to the FP way of things?


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> I might go for a sugar rush high. I certainly wouldn't want to experiment with the likes of cayenne pepper.


I experiment with everything, when I am in the mood. I bought caffiene tablets, for goodness sake.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> I believe I fall into the grip of Si when I'm depressed, which would make quite a bit of sense.
> 
> I think so as well, I think I only wanted to be an INFP because of how introversion is so alluring.
> 
> They think I'm too weird, I guess my Ne ideas are too much for them...they don't understand where I'm coming from and my mind goes too fast for them.
> 
> I realize that in normalcy, I don't give a crap about the past. It's only when I'm depressed because something bad happened and I want to go to the past that I fall into Si more. Is this inferior Si, then?


I don't know if it's inferior Si or just Si in general, because I experience the same thing when I'm depressed or my mood is out of control.

About your friends, some advice might be to slow down a bit for them but that's unfair to you. They don't make you feel bad about it, though?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I experiment with everything, when I am in the mood. I bought caffiene tablets, for goodness sake.


Caffeine tablets


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Hmm, well the Fi-Te axis contains 8 different types.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you're not a TJ, do you relate more to the FP way of things?


I believe so. I'm told I am definitely a perceiver, which I agree with it.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't know if it's inferior Si or just Si in general, because I experience the same thing when I'm depressed or my mood is out of control.
> 
> About your friends, some advice might be to slow down a bit for them but that's unfair to you. They don't make you feel bad about it, though?


Good old Si...hahah.

For the most part, no. They're usually pretty accepting. It's just on occasion they'll say a remark that may be a bit off-putting to me.

So, do you think ENFP?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I believe so. I'm told I am definitely a perceiver, which I agree with it.


Hmm, so that leaves you:

INFP, ENFP, ESFP, ISFP.

You say you don't relate to ESFP, and I don't think you're an INFP. Could you be an ISFP or an ENFP?


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Good old Si...hahah.
> 
> For the most part, no. They're usually pretty accepting. It's just on occasion they'll say a remark that may be a bit off-putting to me.
> 
> So, do you think ENFP?


That's good, at least. And yes, ENFP


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> That's good, at least. And yes, ENFP


Yes...I have to go to therapy at times to make sure I don't become too bothered by it, however. I was depressed in the past and it's not that hard for me to fall back into it if I'm not careful. 

Yay, I think I knew all along I still was an ENFP. The type description fits me perfectly, and I'm only usually quiet when I am sad or down. I just wanted to be an introvert for the mysteriousness...I'm sorry that I go back and forth, but I think I'm done typing myself now ^^


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Yes...I have to go to therapy at times to make sure I don't become too bothered by it, however. I was depressed in the past and it's not that hard for me to fall back into it if I'm not careful.


My life 

On a serious note, I hope you don't have another episode anytime soon or ever again.



TelepathicGoose said:


> Yay, I think I knew all along I still was an ENFP. The type description fits me perfectly, and I'm only usually quiet when I am sad or down. I just wanted to be an introvert for the mysteriousness...I'm sorry that I go back and forth, but I think I'm done typing myself now ^^


What's alluring about introversion? It's usually more like... awkward person in the corner.


----------



## orbit

P


TelepathicGoose said:


> Hmm, so that leaves you:
> 
> INFP, ENFP, ESFP, ISFP.
> 
> You say you don't relate to ESFP, and I don't think you're an INFP. Could you be an ISFP or an ENFP?


Too strong of a Te and no Ne 

I think that I'm trapped in ESFPness psh c:

When was the last time I made a topic about my type? Is there a time limit on how long you have to wait? Filling out questionnaires can be fun.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> My life
> 
> On a serious note, I hope you don't have another episode anytime soon or ever again.


Thank you, and I hope the same for you as well. ^^



> alluring about introversion? It's usually more like... awkward person in the corner.


Introverts are mysterious people who could be thinking anything in their mind. I don't know, it just attracts me somehow.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Thank you, and I hope the same for you as well. ^^
> 
> 
> 
> Introverts are mysterious people who could be thinking anything in their mind. I don't know, it just attracts me somehow.


Unlimited potential ^^


----------



## Immolate

Gray Romantic said:


> I CANNOT UNDERSTAND INTROVERTED FEELING, SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME ;_;


Potentially awkward person who is either oblivious or apathetic toward social niceties and prefers to act like themselves.

???

@_TelepathicGoose_?


----------



## Adena

shinynotshiny said:


> Potentially awkward person who is either oblivious or apathetic toward social niceties and prefers to act like themselves.
> 
> ???
> 
> @_TelepathicGoose_?


argh my Fi dom friends are so weird sometimessss


----------



## Immolate

Gray Romantic said:


> argh my Fi dom friends are so weird sometimessss


Weird how?


----------



## Adena

shinynotshiny said:


> Weird how?


They're so awkward and they either really don't care or care too much D:


----------



## Immolate

Gray Romantic said:


> They're so awkward and they either really don't care or care too much D:


Oh. Yes. That happens :tongue:


----------



## Gman1

TheProphetLaLa said:


> What is this monster of a thread? I have _never_ seen a typing thread this long before. What took place in here? How many wars were fought and lost? How many babies birthed? I don't know if I want to know...


You think this is bad, have a look at some of the INTJ threads...


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Potentially awkward person who is either oblivious or apathetic toward social niceties and prefers to act like themselves.
> 
> ???
> 
> @_TelepathicGoose_?


I think I'm fairly attentive to social niceties, but I usually find it tiring. I adjust my behavior if I feel I can do so without behaving in a way that isn't fake. I care what others think and feel, but ultimately do what I think is right.
@Gray Romantic


----------



## Adena

fair phantom said:


> I think I'm fairly attentive to social niceties, but I usually find it tiring. I adjust my behavior if I feel I can do so without behaving in a way that isn't fake. I care what others think and feel, but ultimately do what I think is right.
> @Gray Romantic


Thank you! <3


----------



## Greyhart

Villains are often written around tropes of "end justifies the means" with some kind of delusional vision attached. So there you have why most are some types of N. Well, there are also straightforward "I'll bash your head into the pavement" berserk types...


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> Ooh, I thiiiink the (fairly villainous) Morgan le Fay I have is ISFJ (though, it could be Ni...not really sure)...and my Lancelot is an xNTJ, pretty sure)
> 
> edit: thought a little more and Morgan is definitely SFJ, mayybe ESFJ though. I'm so upset though, there's all these changes I want to make, I had all these ideas to make it better, especially now that it's part of a series I uploaded the thing to Kindle but that's the only place it exists. The computer it was stored in was roughhandled by the security people and it broke, and the people at the computer place were not able to save the hard drive. Really frustrated. If anything I'll have to retype the whoole thing which I don't think I'm committed enough to do. Really, really frustrated.
> 
> 
> 
> Ehh, but I also have a really typical ENTJ villain, and a couple of stereotypical SFJs.
> 
> (Actually...I'm worried that all my characters act like SFJs.I'm struggling because the hero of the story I'm writing now is meant to be an ESFP, but I fear that he keeps slipping into more ESFJ mode. I think MBTI is a useful tool in writing but also a little frustrating. I guess as long as this guy comes off Se-dom I'm ok. Se is haarrrd though. I'm just doing my best in trying to keep him away from nostalgic rants, damn it, he lives in the _now_).


Yeah. That sucks. My computer can be an asshole also. I don't get upset though. I usually just get mad for a moment, then forget about it. And try recover it, or rewrite it. Or make it hella lot more awesome.

I am one to talk though. I have an ESFJ male who is kinda stereotypical. And an INTJ Gang Boss. I know. This is why I wanna make some characters who break stereotypes. They're fun to make.

I have an ESFP male and a female. Both act very differently. I have him as seductive, sensitive and handsome. She lives in the now, is stylish and very nice.



shinynotshiny said:


> An xSFJ villain who wasn't seriously mentally ill, though?
> 
> Then again, a lot of villains are portrayed as villains because of their internal problems.


Yeah. But one who is mentally sound, but has evil intentions would be different eh? 



angelcat said:


> Norman Bates.
> 
> SPOILER
> 
> He welcomes you into his hotel, makes friends with you, plies you with food, and then stabs you to death, sinks your car in the pond, and blames it all on Mommy.


He has issues.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Potentially awkward person who is either oblivious or apathetic toward social niceties and prefers to act like themselves.
> 
> ???
> 
> @_TelepathicGoose_?


Woah that's weird, it didn't mention me O_OOeee


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah. But one who is mentally sound, but has evil intentions would be different eh? .


I would say so 

Sometimes you see the mental illness and not the personality underneath, plus I'd like to see an evil master plan driven by the functions. It's interesting... I've been trying to think of villainous SJ's and the first one that came to mind was Mirror-Verse Spock (STJ rather than SFJ). But he's more of a bad guy than a villain and also has a better side to him.






obviously villains need beards and the like


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Villains are often written around tropes of "end justifies the means" with some kind of delusional vision attached. So there you have why most are some types of N. Well, there are also straightforward "I'll bash your head into the pavement" berserk types...


What are real "villains" like? Be a typist.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> I would say so
> 
> Sometimes you see the mental illness and not the personality underneath, plus I'd like to see an evil master plan driven by the functions. It's interesting... I've been trying to think of villainous SJ's and the first one that came to mind was Mirror-Verse Spock (STJ rather than SFJ). But he's more of a bad guy than a villain and also has a better side to him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> obviously villains need beards and the like


Yes. Can you imagine a masterplan for evil using Fe-Si-Ne and Ti?  And a crazy, bearded maniac SFJ villain.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes. Can you imagine a masterplan for evil using Fe-Si-Ne and Ti?  And a crazy, bearded maniac SFJ villain.


Don't you mean: Regina George?


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah. That sucks. My computer can be an asshole also. I don't get upset though. I usually just get mad for a moment, then forget about it. And try recover it, or rewrite it. Or make it hella lot more awesome.
> 
> I am one to talk though. I have an ESFJ male who is kinda stereotypical. And an INTJ Gang Boss. I know. This is why I wanna make some characters who break stereotypes. They're fun to make.
> 
> I have an ESFP male and a female. Both act very differently. I have him as seductive, sensitive and handsome. She lives in the now, is stylish and very nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. But one who is mentally sound, but has evil intentions would be different eh?
> 
> 
> 
> He has issues.


But but but...it was 80,000 words, and it's Part 1 of a whole big project. Parts 2, 3, 4 and 5 (or however many I end up with) just won't be as good without 1. And it's not even my computer to blame -- rather, unnecessarily brutal German security officers. _What possessed them to try and pry open the hard drive?_ Ugh, still really annoyed. It wasn't just that -- I also was a quarter of the way through a verse translation of Eugene Onegin and had some other projects there. Gahh, it was a while ago, but I'm still displeased.

It kinda sucks as is, it was kind-of...really lacking in any form of Ti, and...I finally realized that having a prophecy running through would both make it much more interesting and atmospheric and solve some weird plot holes, until a couple weeks ago I thought I could get the file so I've been writing out scenes that will flesh it out and such...and since I'm writing a companion novel, I'm running into things I want to add in or tweak a bit...*but I can't.* Well, what I may end up doing is getting it on my Kindle, retyping the whole thing, which will really give me a wonderful opportunity to go through it with a fine-toothed comb...yay! and and fixing it that way. It just sounds like more work than it's worth. :/

Sorry for the rant, just..annoyed. Really, really annoyed.

I kind-of think a villain has to be mentally ill, unbalanced or otherwise damaged. Otherwise they wouldn't be being a villain. I can't think of a single villain who strikes me as an attitude of the ideal mental and spiritual state)


----------



## orbit

Are we talking villain or antagonist?

The wolf in the three little pigs story? He just was following his instincts? And there can be people who uphold to the rules and I'm pretty sure Regina is not damaged, mentally ill, or unbalanced 

Normal people are perfectly capable of evil... People might want to protect their families or want power

Cersei doesn't seem unbalanced to me or mentally ill...


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> I kind-of think a villain has to be mentally ill, unbalanced or otherwise damaged. Otherwise they wouldn't be being a villain. I can't think of a single villain who strikes me as an attitude of the ideal mental and spiritual state)


I would say unbalanced and damaged, and of course there are the mentally ill villains driven by their emotions (or lack thereof), but I don't think a villain necessarily needs a mental illness to be a villain. I mean, most people with mental illness aren't dangerous.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> But but but...it was 80,000 words, and it's Part 1 of a whole big project. Parts 2, 3, 4 and 5 (or however many I end up with) just won't be as good without 1. And it's not even my computer to blame -- rather, unnecessarily brutal German security officers. _What possessed them to try and pry open the hard drive?_ Ugh, still really annoyed. It wasn't just that -- I also was a quarter of the way through a verse translation of Eugene Onegin and had some other projects there. Gahh, it was a while ago, but I'm still displeased.
> 
> It kinda sucks as is, it was kind-of...really lacking in any form of Ti, and...I finally realized that having a prophecy running through would both make it much more interesting and atmospheric and solve some weird plot holes, until a couple weeks ago I thought I could get the file so I've been writing out scenes that will flesh it out and such...and since I'm writing a companion novel, I'm running into things I want to add in or tweak a bit...*but I can't.* Well, what I may end up doing is getting it on my Kindle, retyping the whole thing, which will really give me a wonderful opportunity to go through it with a fine-toothed comb...yay! and and fixing it that way. It just sounds like more work than it's worth. :/
> 
> Sorry for the rant, just..annoyed. Really, really annoyed.
> 
> I kind-of think a villain has to be mentally ill, unbalanced or otherwise damaged. Otherwise they wouldn't be being a villain. I can't think of a single villain who strikes me as an attitude of the ideal mental and spiritual state)


I kind of think to myself that in order to be cruel, someone has to be unbalanced... But I don't know. Is goodness natural, or is neutrality and by consequence cruelty more natural? 

Sorry... I'm not trying to be offensive - I am all about fighting ableism, particularly against mental illness - but I think about it in my own terms. Were my abusers logical, or were their minds twisted? I really don't know... either what the correct answer is in actuality or what the correct answer is in sensitive terms. 

I am so sorry to hear about your story, @Oswin. Honestly... That stinks. It really does. 

Do you live in Germany, by the way? I've been wondering where you live (hopefully that's not too creepy), since you're so familiar with Europe it seems.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also sorry, I'm trying to get on but for some reason I am unable to log on today, it's being weird :/ 

But, not that villains are all unbalanced, I'm not sure if they are or not, but I don't think that all villains being evil would logically imply that all mentally ill people are dangerous. Of course many would see it that way (because people are stupid and our society is ableist by nature), but I would see it more as one of those disgrams where the big circle is "People with a Mental Illness" and the little tiny dot to the side is "Villains". All villains would be mentally ill, but not all mentally ill people would be villains. 

Not that this is the case - I'm not sure what the case is - but I just wanted to remind that saying all villains are mentally ill would not logically say that all mentally ill people are villain-esque.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> 1. Actions can be evil without a person being evil. Many villains think they are doing the right thing and have "good intentions"
> 2. In some of these cases, people knew it was wrong—or they would have known if they stopped to think about it, stopped to question.
> 
> I'm not trying to suggest that low level nazis were as bad as Hitler, _at all_, I would call them more conduits of evil than evil-in-themselves. But a lot of evil goes on due to people simply going along with authority (including society/culture in that term). Much evil is committed by those who are sane but ignorant, selfish, and fearful, etc.


So basically, I suppose, evil is selfishness. It is choosing to place your well-being over someone else's.
This makes evil a very common occurrence. Which I'm not going to argue, actually...just an interesting thought. But this means that the person who takes the last cookie when they knew someone else wanted it is committing a very small act of evil. The person who ignores someone's discomfort or suffering because they did not want to go out of their way -- the person who drives past a hitchhiker on the highway -- which let's face it, is most people -- is committing a tiny act of evil. In fact, anyone who hears of suffering and does not immediately help -- everyone who scrolls past GoFundMe links or puts money repainting the house rather than feeding the poor -- is a villain and is in some sense, evil. In other words, everyone. Or?


----------



## Immolate

I can't speak for @fair phantom but that's not what I'm suggesting.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> So basically, I suppose, evil is selfishness. It is choosing to place your well-being over someone else's.
> This makes evil a very common occurrence. Which I'm not going to argue, actually...just an interesting thought. But this means that the person who takes the last cookie when they knew someone else wanted it is committing a very small act of evil. The person who ignores someone's discomfort or suffering because they did not want to go out of their way -- the person who drives past a hitchhiker on the highway -- which let's face it, is most people -- is committing a tiny act of evil. In fact, anyone who hears of suffering and does not immediately help -- everyone who scrolls past GoFundMe links or puts money repainting the house rather than feeding the poor -- is a villain and is in some sense, evil. In other words, everyone. Or?


I'd say we all have the potential for evil but it is a mighty big jump from my claim that participating in genocide is committing evil to some of the things you listed. Concentration camp guards and slave owners can only make peace with what they are doing by _denying another person's humanity_, which goes beyond simply choosing oneself over another.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


>


What a beautiful goddess.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> What a beautiful goddess.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> I can't speak for @fair phantom but that's not what I'm suggesting.


Then what is evil? Where does the line lie between ordinary selfishness and true evil? Must evil be active, rather than passive? (I would disagree, but...) If you believe an act is good (for instance, you pick up a hitchhiker) and it has a bad result (you took hitchhiker to his ex-girlfriend's house and he kills her and her new lover) are you to blame? (I would disagree.)

You're the train driver who takes Jews to the concentration camp. You _could_ miss the stop, flee into France, save them -- but it would mean abandoning your family and completely uprooting your life. If you just do what your job prescribes, and drop them off -- is it an act of evil? I think you could argue both ways. Right now I'm going with yes. You are responsible for their deaths because you could have stopped them and you chose not to for your own convenience. In some ways it is more evil than some Hitler type who honestly believes they are doing good (I am not a Hitler expert but this is my impression of him). Because no one can see outside their own perception. 

So yes, I think I have reversed my position on mental illness. I think evil is actually...ridiculously omnipresent.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


>


Beautiful, indeed.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Then what is evil? Where does the line lie between ordinary selfishness and true evil? Must evil be active, rather than passive? (I would disagree, but...) If you believe an act is good (for instance, you pick up a hitchhiker) and it has a bad result (you took hitchhiker to his ex-girlfriend's house and he kills her and her new lover) are you to blame? (I would disagree.)
> 
> You're the train driver who takes Jews to the concentration camp. You _could_ miss the stop, flee into France, save them -- but it would mean abandoning your family and completely uprooting your life. If you just do what your job prescribes, and drop them off -- is it an act of evil? I think you could argue both ways. Right now I'm going with yes. You are responsible for their deaths because you could have stopped them and you chose not to for your own convenience. In some ways it is more evil than some Hitler type who honestly believes they are doing good (I am not a Hitler expert but this is my impression of him). Because no one can see outside their own perception.
> 
> So yes, I think I have reversed my position on mental illness. I think evil is actually...ridiculously omnipresent.


"Denying another person's humanity" pretty much sums up what I consider evil.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

I think that selflessness is kinda overrated, as it's not always an honest action. People usually do that for feeling well themselves, and not because they really care about the other person. That's why I'm kinda wary of anyone that's extremely selfless, as for me that reeks as something fake or mechanical deep down. Selfishness is part of human nature, so denying that and feeling bad for that reason shows how selflessness is put on a pedestal without thinking about the real reasons for doing something like that.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> I'd say we all have the potential for evil but it is a mighty big jump from my claim that participating in genocide is committing evil to some of the things you listed. Concentration camp guards and slave owners can only make peace with what they are doing by _denying another person's humanity_, which goes beyond simply choosing oneself over another.


But the question here is, are they truly denying the humanity, or do they not believe it exists?
If they are denying it, if deep down inside they believe in the person's humanity but are ignoring it because they are too cowardly to come face to face with it -- it's no different from saying "Someone else will help this person" when that very well might not happen at its core.
If they do not believe it exists, then they are truly unable to understand what it is they are doing -- and in their own world, they are blameless. This, to me, would constitute mental illness, a true inability to see the world as it is.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> But the question here is, are they truly denying the humanity, or do they not believe it exists?
> If they are denying it, if deep down inside they believe in the person's humanity but are ignoring it because they are too cowardly to come face to face with it -- it's no different from saying "Someone else will help this person" when that very well might not happen at its core.
> *If they do not believe it exists, then they are truly unable to understand what it is they are doing -- and in their own world, they are blameless. This, to me, would constitute mental illness, a true inability to see the world as it is.*


I disagree. I don't even know what to say.


----------



## Dangerose

Blue Flare said:


> I think that selflessness is kinda overrated, as it's not always an honest action. People usually do that for feeling well themselves, and not because they really care about the other person. That's why I'm kinda wary of anyone that's extremely selfless, as for me that reeks as something fake or mechanical deep down. Selfishness is part of human nature, so denying that and feeling bad for that reason shows how selflessness is put on a pedestal without thinking about the real reasons for doing something like that.


Still, it's better to do the right action even if your intentions are not pure, no? "I know this is right -- and omg I'm super cool for doing this cool thing -- yay me -- oh and I did the right thing" is still better than "I know this is wrong -- gonna do it anyways cause I want to -- and I caused harm -- but at least I was being honest with myself".

I struggle with this all the time though. Whenever I pray, the very first thing I ask for is that my intentions can be pure. I always hate it, I'll get to this point where I feel like all my intentions and prayers are totally in line -- and then I'm patting myself on the back for it and have thinking of myself as some sort of saint -- oh dear, need to clear my intentions and try again -- repeat process")))

I do believe true selflessness exists though, and that selfishness should be avoided as much as possible.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> I disagree. I don't even know what to say.


which part (of the bold part, I can see a few possible things you might disagree with) and why?


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> which part (of the bold part, I can see a few possible things you might disagree with) and why?


Because throughout history there has been a person who has looked at another person and denied their humanity, as if that person is just a mistake thrown up by nature or a lesser being not worthy of respect. People found and continue to find ways to justify their point of view, sometimes with science, sometimes with spiritual beliefs, sometimes with "logic." That doesn't take mental illness.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Oswin said:


> Still, it's better to do the right action even if your intentions are not pure, no? "I know this is right -- and omg I'm super cool for doing this cool thing -- yay me -- oh and I did the right thing" is still better than "I know this is wrong -- gonna do it anyways cause I want to -- and I caused harm -- but at least I was being honest with myself".
> 
> I struggle with this all the time though. Whenever I pray, the very first thing I ask for is that my intentions can be pure. I always hate it, I'll get to this point where I feel like all my intentions and prayers are totally in line -- and then I'm patting myself on the back for it and have thinking of myself as some sort of saint -- oh dear, need to clear my intentions and try again -- repeat process")))
> 
> I do believe true selflessness exists though, and that selfishness should be avoided as much as possible.


You missed my point, as being selfish doesn't imply to actually do an action for harming someone. I'm not selfless but I won't go out of my way for hurting someone on purpose, like spreading lies about others or breaking their belongings. There's a big difference between those concepts. 

Besides, you can't be always a hero and save everyone. Not everyone has the proper skills for actually helping, and you can actually do more harm if you try something without being sure that you're following the right measures. If you want to help, calling a specialist is more useful on the long run than doing something else. What you will achieve if you also get into trouble or end being harmed, like when someone is dealing with a thief? you may end making the whole issue worse despite having the best intentions.

So I disagree with your concept of being a good person.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Because throughout history there has been a person who has looked at another person and denied their humanity, as if that person is just a mistake thrown up by nature or a lesser being not worthy of respect. People found and continue to find ways to justify their point of view, sometimes with science, sometimes with spiritual beliefs, sometimes with "logic." That doesn't take mental illness.


So where, in your opinion does that come from? How would you categorize it?
I don't think it's evil. I think a distorted manner of thinking, which blocks certain people off from humanity, is not a good thing, but not something you can blame others for. Unless it is truly justification -- they _know_ on whatever level that they are wrong, but are denying it to themselves. I think these have to be viewed as two completely different outlooks. One is wrong, and justifiable, the other is wrong, and unjustifiable.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> So where, in your opinion does that come from? How would you categorize it?
> I don't think it's evil. I think a distorted manner of thinking, which blocks certain people off from humanity, is not a good thing, but not something you can blame others for. Unless it is truly justification -- they _know_ on whatever level that they are wrong, but are denying it to themselves. I think these have to be viewed as two completely different outlooks. One is wrong, and justifiable, the other is wrong, and unjustifiable.


I would say a lot of these people didn't believe they were in the wrong, and again, I don't think it takes mental illness. Some people have specific ideas of what it means to be a person, to be worthwhile, to be respected. It can depend on culture, upbringing, spiritual beliefs, ignorance.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Then what is evil? Where does the line lie between ordinary selfishness and true evil? Must evil be active, rather than passive? (I would disagree, but...) If you believe an act is good (for instance, you pick up a hitchhiker) and it has a bad result (you took hitchhiker to his ex-girlfriend's house and he kills her and her new lover) are you to blame? (I would disagree.)
> 
> You're the train driver who takes Jews to the concentration camp. You _could_ miss the stop, flee into France, save them -- but it would mean abandoning your family and completely uprooting your life. If you just do what your job prescribes, and drop them off -- is it an act of evil? I think you could argue both ways. Right now I'm going with yes. You are responsible for their deaths because you could have stopped them and you chose not to for your own convenience. In some ways it is more evil than some Hitler type who honestly believes they are doing good (I am not a Hitler expert but this is my impression of him). Because no one can see outside their own perception.
> 
> So yes, I think I have reversed my position on mental illness. I think evil is actually...ridiculously omnipresent.


It is difficult if not impossible to draw the line, especially since I think moral judgments usually require a lot of context. The differences are sometimes obvious, but they can be subtle. 

That said, I don't think it is always evil to look after yourself. I've done the whole moral perfectionism and extreme selflessness thing and it wound up hurting a lot of people, including myself. Never putting yourself also throws things out of balance. 

I'm not I've tried the Though passive evil is generally more forgivable. In your hitchhiker example, no, that person is not to blame, you can't always predict an outcome. That isn't really what I would consider a case of good intentions gone wrong, because the person they intended to help was helped. The fact that the killer took advantage of the driver's goodwill doesn't change that.

With the train driver, yes it is an evil act, but it is a banal one, a human one that can be sympathized with. Anyone can understand the desire to care for one's family. I don't think much good would come from punishing such a person. I would not say they are more evil than Hitler. They can probably become a productive member of a less hateful society, I don't think Hitler could have–not at that point. And he may have deemed his intentions good, but to any *balanced* individual, I think eliminating entire races and categories of people would not be considered good intentions.


----------



## Dangerose

Blue Flare said:


> You missed my point, as being selfish doesn't imply to actually do an action for harming someone. I'm not selfless but I won't go out of my way for hurting someone on purpose, like spreading lies about others or breaking their belongings. There's a big difference between those concepts.
> 
> Besides, you can't be always a hero and save everyone. Not everyone has the proper skills for actually helping, and you can actually do more harm if you try something without being sure that you're following the right measures. If you want to help, calling a specialist is more useful on the long run than doing something else. What you will achieve if you also get into trouble or end being harmed, like when someone is dealing with a thief? you may end making the whole issue worse despite having the best intentions.
> 
> So I disagree with your concept of being a good person.


Quite true, and I think someone trying to be a hero in a bad situation, that doesn't know what to do -- is being selfish, they are thinking of their own glory and not what is best for everyone involved. I wasn't thinking of this sort of situation, I was thinking of like, knowing someone needs you (emotionally or whatnot) but you were looking forward to having alone time or going to some party or something, so you do not go to them. It is selfish, you're causing them some measure of harm, for your own benefit. Most people do this at some point and most people would not call this evil -- but it's a shadow of some actions that everyone would consider evil, turning a blind eye on someone who is dying because you do not want to lose your job or risk your security or something. I think we were working from different terms, not sure though.


----------



## fair phantom

Side note: I'm enjoying (seems like the wrong word) this discussion and finding it thought-provoking, but if people are getting upset about it I hope you will speak up, I understand it can bring up intense feelings. <3


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> *sees glitter* @_shinynotshiny_ lost it.


On the contrary. I'm matching your raccoon, and ISTJs like shiny stars and the like.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> It blinds you with greatness.


Yes, indeed.


----------



## Max

I have this really funny feeling that Lucho is lurking. Again.


----------



## owlet

ae1905 said:


> the hot pink name is not enough?!...you want _more_?...who isn't unselfish, here?
> 
> but, alas, there are no raffles here in PerC, what would they give away?--personality?...come to think of it, that's not such...oh, sorry, I was just brainstorming there...yes, that's right, no raffles, but if you behave yourself and rack up your post counts (ahem, in an _unselfish _way) you might be featured as--wait for it:
> 
> 
> *The Member Of The Month!*​
> 
> 
> how's that for an award?...I bet shiny^2 is down on her knees right now cursing her unlucky (but still shiny) stars she ever disowned awards in the first place...poor ISTJs, forever destined to be unappreciated (but not always for no fault of their own



I was being a bit facetious :tongue: 

Why the continuous commenting on Shiny's ISTJ typing? Just curious.

(Also @shinynotshiny your new avatar is cool!)


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> I was being a bit facetious :tongue:
> 
> Why the continuous commenting on Shiny's ISTJ typing? Just curious.
> 
> (Also @_shinynotshiny_ your new avatar is cool!)


I believe he's the one who said he doesn't like ISTJs.

And yes, Sparkly Spock.


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> I believe he's the one who said he doesn't like ISTJs.
> 
> And yes, Sparkly Spock.


How do you not like an entire type? Anyway, even if someone prefers to use four functions over the others, the balance of said functions and the expression of them will be extremely different for each individual.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> How do you not like an entire type? Anyway, even if someone prefers to use four functions over the others, the balance of said functions and the expression of them will be extremely different for each individual.


I don't even find myself relating to ISTJ, but all this bullshit convinces me more and more that I should be Sparkly Spock or Bacon-Eating Ron Swanson


----------



## ae1905

laurie17 said:


> I was being a bit facetious :tongue:
> 
> Why the continuous commenting on Shiny's ISTJ typing? Just curious.
> 
> (Also @_shinynotshiny_ your new avatar is cool!)


I made a joke about that t-shirt, but other than that there is no "continuous commenting on ISTJ typing"...she said she didn't like awards, so I played with her name, not her type...the only comment directed at her type here is the very last one, about ISTJs being "unappreciated", and that's a nod to something allitlebear said a few hundred posts back


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> I believe he's the one who said he doesn't like ISTJs.
> 
> And yes, Sparkly Spock.


I have friends and family who are ISTJs, so, yeah, I don't like them


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't even find myself relating to ISTJ, but all this bullshit convinces me more and more that I should be Sparkly Spock or Bacon-Eating Ron Swanson


Sparkly Spock is best Spock.

But really? Where are you getting all of these fabulous gifs? Gollum must know, my precious.


----------



## Immolate

ae1905 said:


> I made a joke about that t-shirt, but other than that there is no "continuous commenting on ISTJ's typing"...she said she didn't like awards, so I played with her name, not her type...the only comment directed at her type here is the very last one, about ISTJs being "unappreciated", and that's a nod to something allitlebear said a few hundred posts back


You outright said you didn't like ISTJs, and your comment about collecting stars and awards seemed like a poke at duty and other such stereotypes. Whatever the case, mentioning me on my knees is what pissed me off regardless of your intention. Now you know.


----------



## Immolate

ae1905 said:


> I have friends and family who are ISTJs, so, yeah, I don't like them


The logic is not strong with this one.


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> You outright said you didn't like ISTJs, and your comment about collecting stars and awards seemed like a poke at duty and other such stereotypes. Whatever the case, mentioning me on my knees is what pissed me off regardless of your intention. Now you know.


the t-shirt was a joke, so where did I say in seriousness that I don't like ISTJs as a type?..._you_ replied to my awards post and it was your name that suggested the stars idea...I agree that the "goody-goody" connotation was there, but that was gravy, and I would've used the idea on anyone whose name was shiny^2...the knees idea suggests contrition and prayer with a nod to higher powers--ie, stars and the PerC mgt...what does that have to do with ISTJ?


----------



## Immolate

ae1905 said:


> the t-shirt was a joke, so where did I say in seriousness that I don't like ISTJs as a type?..._you_ replied to my awards post and it was your name that suggested the stars idea...I agree that the "goody-goody" connotation was there, but that was gravy, and I would've used the idea on anyone whose name was shiny^2...the knees idea suggests contrition and prayer with a nod to higher powers--ie, stars and the PerC mgt...what does that have to do with ISTJ?


Really tho?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Sparkly Spock is best Spock.
> 
> But really? Where are you getting all of these fabulous gifs? Gollum must know, my precious.


Fun fact: I used to call Gollum an adorable kitten and freak people out. 










But honestly, _he_ is the precious one.


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> The logic is not strong with this one.


which part don't you believe?...that I have ISTJ friends and family?...or that I don't like them?


----------



## Immolate

ae1905 said:


> which part don't you believe?...that I have ISTJ friends and family?...or that I don't like them?


The logic REALLY is not strong with this one.


:|


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> Really tho?


really what?


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> The logic REALLY is not strong with this one.
> 
> 
> :|


my friends and family might disagree


----------



## Max

My friend's cat is wet. 
He is one wet pussy :/


----------



## Immolate

ae1905 said:


> really what?





ae1905 said:


> my friends and family might disagree












I feel bad because you're really not getting it.

@_LuchoIsLurking_ oh Lucho why


----------



## fair phantom




----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> I feel bad because you're really not getting it.
> 
> @_LuchoIsLurking_ oh Lucho why


Thats what she said ;D


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Thats what she said ;D


You can deal with that frustration here.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> You can deal with that frustration here.


You are like my friend.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You are like my friend.


Go be at peace.


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> I feel bad because you're really not getting it.
> 
> @_LuchoIsLurking_ oh Lucho why


don't feel bad, cuz I don't care


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Go be at peace.


I am at peace. With my friend and her cat and my guitar ;D


----------



## Immolate

ae1905 said:


> don't feel bad, cuz I don't care


It's the "embarrassed for you" kind of bad, but thank you for letting me know.


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> It's the "embarrassed for you" kind of bad, but thank you for letting me know.


so?...why should I care if you feel "embarrassed" for me?...what's it to me?


----------



## Immolate

ae1905 said:


> so?...why should I care if you feel "embarrassed" for me?...what's it to me?


Oh my goodness, not even worth it.


----------



## ae1905

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh my goodness, not even worth it.


no?...then why do you keep replying to me?


----------



## Immolate

(I knew it!)

@Greyhart should come out of the attic, here's some laid-back hippie ISTJ.


----------



## Greyhart

Last two pages left me between laughing and second-hand embarrassment. I can't do two emotions at once.









If serious I've finished season 3 of Elementary. I am now sad and should do work but really don't want to so I'm deciding between some horror movie and watching 22 Jump Street. It's kind of similar so the choice is hard.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Last two pages left me between laughing and second-hand embarrassment. I can't do two emotions at once.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If serious I've finished season 3 of Elementary. I am now sad and should do work but really don't want to so I'm deciding between some horror movie and watching 22 Jump Street. It's kind of similar so the choice is hard.


I apologize.

I haven't watched Elementary since the first season.


----------



## Dangerose

This conversation has my Fe very unhappy.
Speaking of my Fe...it might not exist.
It's the big cause of all my problems in life. I just...can't Fe. I dropped out of college because I couldn't talk to the professors after I'd missed classes. I've left a job by just...fleeing the country without explaining myself. I am ok, though famously quiet and shrinking, in low-risk conversations, but the moment any sort of awkwardness or difficulty or risk shows up I just...can't, I just walk away. Keeping lines of communication open is a struggle for me. I'm very harsh and sometimes thoughtless. Earlier today I dropped a mug and it broke. My sweet and kind mother came in with a little broom and dustpan, and I was snappish and impatient with her, and at the time I didn't even see why she was upset. I just...I was so impatient, I wanted to move on from that moment, I completely forgot to consider her feelings. I can never get up the courage to go into bars or even restaurants, museums alone, it's just terrifying to me...I mean, nothing awful's going to happen, it's just...so unpleasant and weird...and I'm terrible, self-centered and overbearing in interpersonal relationships. Half the time I don't even care about someone else's feelings and I have a fault (which I have mostly gotten over but it still exists) of looking down on people who are very sensitive or fragile, and getting very impatient with people who are slow and fussy. Could I be:
a. Ti-dom? INTP? Could this be inferior Fi?
b. Te-dom? ESTJ? Could we just be confused because I'm a girl and use pleasant words on the Internet?


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Last two pages left me between laughing and second-hand embarrassment. I can't do two emotions at once.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If serious I've finished season 3 of Elementary. I am now sad and should do work but really don't want to so I'm deciding between some horror movie and watching 22 Jump Street. It's kind of similar so the choice is hard.


If you want a scary horror film, you should watch The Orphanage by Guillermo Del Toro. It's really good.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> This conversation has my Fe very unhappy.
> Speaking of my Fe...it might not exist.
> It's the big cause of all my problems in life. I just...can't Fe. I dropped out of college because I couldn't talk to the professors after I'd missed classes. I've left a job by just...fleeing the country without explaining myself. I am ok, though famously quiet and shrinking, in low-risk conversations, but the moment any sort of awkwardness or difficulty or risk shows up I just...can't, I just walk away. Keeping lines of communication open is a struggle for me. I'm very harsh and sometimes thoughtless. Earlier today I dropped a mug and it broke. My sweet and kind mother came in with a little broom and dustpan, and I was snappish and impatient with her, and at the time I didn't even see why she was upset. I just...I was so impatient, I wanted to move on from that moment, I completely forgot to consider her feelings. I can never get up the courage to go into bars or even restaurants, museums alone, it's just terrifying to me...I mean, nothing awful's going to happen, it's just...so unpleasant and weird...and I'm terrible, self-centered and overbearing in interpersonal relationships. Half the time I don't even care about someone else's feelings and I have a fault (which I have mostly gotten over but it still exists) of looking down on people who are very sensitive or fragile, and getting very impatient with people who are slow and fussy. Could I be:
> a. Ti-dom? INTP? Could this be inferior Fi?
> b. Te-dom? ESTJ? Could we just be confused because I'm a girl and use pleasant words on the Internet?


Hmm, if I understand, you're considering INTP and ESTJ because they both have inferior Fx. I think it can be hard to distinguish between inferior Fx and an anxious manifestation of Fx. I can relate to some of your experiences, but I wouldn't say they're exclusive to Fi types. I'm more inclined to see you as a Ti user, but I'm curious about your consideration of Te. Do you recognize any Te in your behavior?


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> This conversation has my Fe very unhappy.
> Speaking of my Fe...it might not exist.
> It's the big cause of all my problems in life. I just...can't Fe. I dropped out of college because I couldn't talk to the professors after I'd missed classes. I've left a job by just...fleeing the country without explaining myself. I am ok, though famously quiet and shrinking, in low-risk conversations, but the moment any sort of awkwardness or difficulty or risk shows up I just...can't, I just walk away. Keeping lines of communication open is a struggle for me. I'm very harsh and sometimes thoughtless. Earlier today I dropped a mug and it broke. My sweet and kind mother came in with a little broom and dustpan, and I was snappish and impatient with her, and at the time I didn't even see why she was upset. I just...I was so impatient, I wanted to move on from that moment, I completely forgot to consider her feelings. I can never get up the courage to go into bars or even restaurants, museums alone, it's just terrifying to me...I mean, nothing awful's going to happen, it's just...so unpleasant and weird...and I'm terrible, self-centered and overbearing in interpersonal relationships. Half the time I don't even care about someone else's feelings and I have a fault (which I have mostly gotten over but it still exists) of looking down on people who are very sensitive or fragile, and getting very impatient with people who are slow and fussy. Could I be:
> a. Ti-dom? INTP? Could this be inferior Fi?
> b. Te-dom? ESTJ? Could we just be confused because I'm a girl and use pleasant words on the Internet?


Frankly, most of this just screams INTROVERT at me (the part about being fearful about going into new places, running away from conflict, etc). 

I don't usually care about people's feelings either. I'm not all that nice. I think if you make your bed, you should lie in it. I think you should suck it up, get over it, and move on. That's not exactly... loving Fe, is it? That Fe is loving is a myth. It's a judging function. Looking at others, judging them through social standards. Right. Wrong. Fat. Stupid. Lazy. Pathetic. Cruel. 

I range from being incredibly nice and sweet to being the biggest bitch on the block. I used to bait my father for fun, and watch him get all emotional about it. Was that nice? No. Was I thinking about his feelings? No. Fe doesn't equal nice. It just means ... objective social standards.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Hmm, if I understand, you're considering INTP and ESTJ because they both have inferior Fx. I think it can be hard to distinguish between inferior Fx and an anxious manifestation of Fx. I can relate to some of your experiences, but I wouldn't say they're exclusive to Fi types. I'm more inclined to see you as a Ti user, but I'm curious about your consideration of Te. Do you recognize any Te in your behavior?


I don't know. Te confuses me a little. As I said, I can be impatient and sometimes...I don't want to mince words or coddle people's feelings, I just want to state things as I see them. I know it's not a great example of Te. I don't think I see a lot of Te from me, but it could be due to not fully understanding what Te is.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny Science fair with him was fun. He knew all the facts and just poured them out, chatting about every scientific thing he could ink of and going on his global warming rants (which the judges _loved_), talking about how important our project was, and when he went too far or said something abrasive I smoothed it over. 

As far as the actual project... We got it done. Maybe not as the scientific method would have liked us to get it done, but we got it done.

Edit: Okay. I'm thinking of my ExTJ friend and my INTP friend now. Both love science. Both are science majors. Both handled everything very differently. 

INTP friend loved theorizing. Abstracting. Going nerd about... Well, anything, science or not. Government. His plan for the world. Cells. Cells. Cells. The innocence of Hitler. The book he read. ExTJ friend... also loved going nerd, but his was more external. Relevant now. GMOs are great. Biotechnology is great. I can't believe they're hurting the deer. (He didn't say it like this, I am kindly reiterating the more rant-y stuff he said, but these are the things he discussed.) wow, did you see that stupid thing some political leader did? Anti Abortion people tick me off. Etc etc etc. More now, less in his head thinking about less immediate concepts. (This is from my Fe POV, having not talked with either deeply in a while, but yeah.)


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> :laughing:


I'm gonna slap you Shiny :3 (Jk btw) I KNOW Te users can think for themselves. My Dad is a Te-Machine and he can think for himself well enough and make his own conclusions based on his Extroverted Thinking Data.

To be fair, if there is a shortcut to do things and the results are as good as the established method and it gets the job done, I'll take it. If it saves money, time and effort, even better. 

Why use the systematic way when you can do it yourself and still get it done?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ Science fair with him was fun. He knew all the facts and just poured them out, chatting about every scientific thing he could ink of and going on his global warming rants (which the judges _loved_), talking about how important our project was, and when he went too far or said something abrasive I smoothed it over.
> 
> As far as the actual project... We got it done. Maybe not as the scientific method would have liked us to get it done, but we got it done.


It does sound Te 

And again, it isn't always so rigid. Goodness knows I'm messy these days lol


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I'm gonna slap you Shiny :3 (Jk btw) I KNOW Te users can think for themselves. My Dad is a Te-Machine and he can think for himself well enough and make his own conclusions based on his Extroverted Thinking Data.
> 
> *To be fair, if there is a shortcut to do things and the results are as good as the established method and it gets the job done, I'll take it. If it saves money, time and effort, even better. *
> 
> Why use the systematic way when you can do it yourself and still get it done?


About the bold: so would I, and Te does like efficiency.

You clearly believe you use Ti, so 



alittlebear said:


> Edit: Okay. I'm thinking of my ExTJ friend and my INTP friend now. Both love science. Both are science majors. Both handled everything very differently.
> 
> INTP friend loved theorizing. Abstracting. Going nerd about... Well, anything, science or not. Government. His plan for the world. Cells. Cells. Cells. The innocence of Hitler. The book he read. ExTJ friend... also loved going nerd, but his was more external. Relevant now. GMOs are great. Biotechnology is great. I can't believe they're hurting the deer. (He didn't say it like this, I am kindly reiterating the more rant-y stuff he said, but these are the things he discussed.) wow, did you see that stupid thing some political leader did? Anti Abortion people tick me off. Etc etc etc. More now, less in his head thinking about less immediate concepts. (This is from my Fe POV, having not talked with either deeply in a while, but yeah.)


Sounds about right to me.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> About the bold: so would I, and Te does like efficiency.
> 
> You clearly believe you use Ti, so


Hm... I don't think I use Fi. Can you describe Fi for me? I am almost certain I don't.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm actually sort of in love with the idea of Te lately (although not like... in love with it, obviously it still have biases, but I've been liking the idea of it lately). One of the Tumblr MBTI-discussing blogs I follow reblogged a post about Annabeth Chase from PJO about how rebellious and rule-breaking she was to get what she wanted, and she tagged it along the lines of "ESTJs use Te first, over Si". And that was so lovely to me. I can't really explain why, but it did. 

Also I really love Hector from _The Iliad_, and he's either ISTJ or ESTJ. (There's another ESTJ I've found I love, but I can't think of them at the moment. I mean there's Cersei, but goodness knows I've always loved her.)


----------



## fair phantom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Hm... I don't think I use Fi. Can you describe Fi for me? I am almost certain I don't.


If it is a lower function you might not even be aware you use it.

I seem to use Ti more than Te. I can see the Te in me when I look for it, but I used to be like "no way".


----------



## Pressed Flowers

The Ghost of Harrenhall is in our midst.


----------



## Max

@alittlebear - I have a character called Hector. He uses Te too, but as a Tert/Inf Function. He is an FP. 
@fair phantom - We use all 8 functions in varying amounts. I find Ni impossible to find, but I know I use both aspects of Intuition in varying degrees.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Hm... I don't think I use Fi. Can you describe Fi for me? I am almost certain I don't.


Again with Fi. Let's see. 

Society says such-and-such is the correct way to behave. Religious texts claim to teach truth and ultimate morality. Your mother taught you this is wrong and this is right.

If you go with the flow, you're most likely Fe. 

If you question the source and develop a personal belief system, you're most likely Fi.

I say "most likely" because Fe users and Fi users are capable of both. Lines blur here and there. That's how I see it, does it seem right to Fe users out there?


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Again with Fi. Let's see.
> 
> Society says such-and-such is the correct way to behave. Religious texts claim to teach truth and ultimate morality. Your mother taught you this is wrong and this is right.
> 
> If you go with the flow, you're most likely Fe.
> 
> If you question the source and develop a personal belief system, you're most likely Fi.
> 
> I say "most likely" because Fe users and Fi users are capable of both. Lines blur here and there. That's how I see it, does it seem right to Fe users out there?


My own belief system? No way! Pft. Too much effort, and you end up looking like a hypocrite if you don't stick to those beliefs. I go with the flow. Too much effort. Imagine the Belief Systems of Luchadori in my mind. No thanks. 

I do have my own opinions and thoughts on belief systems/customs, though I tend to follow them. 

Whats that?


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> My own belief system? No way! Pft. Too much effort, and you end up looking like a hypocrite if you don't stick to those beliefs. I go with the flow. Too much effort. Imagine the Belief Systems of Luchadori in my mind. No thanks.
> 
> I do have my own opinions and thoughts on belief systems/customs, though I tend to follow them.
> 
> Whats that?


A belief system doesn't have to be complicated. It's a collection of personal beliefs you've developed largely on your own throughout the years.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Again with Fi. Let's see.
> 
> Society says such-and-such is the correct way to behave. Religious texts claim to teach truth and ultimate morality. Your mother taught you this is wrong and this is right.
> 
> If you go with the flow, you're most likely Fe.
> 
> If you question the source and develop a personal belief system, you're most likely Fi.
> 
> I say "most likely" because Fe users and Fi users are capable of both. Lines blur here and there. That's how I see it, does it seem right to Fe users out there?


Hmm. 

With religion, I was always questioning? And still questioning. I've realized (as I've gone into so much, lol) that the core of Christianity is love, and I am always evaluating the things that Christian churches and individual Christians do to see if they match up to love. Are they doing this for the betterment of others? Out of the goodness of their hearts? If they aren't, I reject it. Can't tell you how many times I sat at the church program I went to with my friend last year thinking... Sigh. No. No. No, this is wrong, and this type of thinking is going to get so many people hurt. I did the same thing in Sunday School... Always challenging (for me it was more logical exploration, for the teachers they saw it as challenging) the logic behind this or that. Why do we do confession? Why are we the right religion? Why is this a sin? Why in the _world_ do we do this thing when that kind of makes us cannibals...?

But for me, at least as a kid, it was about logic. Does this make sense? How does evolution fit into our framework? How can our religion be right, but their religion be right too and them go to heaven? I think my Fe knew what was right - that we have to treat others with respect and love and kindness - and so of all things I valued that as a Christian without having to question it because, well, duh - but my Ti wanted to know about the intricacies of the Catholic Church... especially since, well, the Catholic Church has some funky stuff in its teachings, and little six year old me wanted to understand that funky stuff.

I think that my more recent problems with the displays of Christian religions are more Fe. How dare they shame LGBT individuals, make them hate themselves? How do they think that's okay? How dare they speak of people of different beliefs like that, forget that we are all the same inside? I don't have to question whether or not it's right, because obviously it's not. (Funnily enough, I didn't have this problem as a Catholic. We didn't say anything that made my morality radar go off, save some ableist things that I couldn't recognize as ableist at the time. It's not that way in all the churches I have experienced, quite unfortunately.)


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> A belief system doesn't have to be complicated. It's a collection of personal beliefs you've developed largely on your own throughout the years.


Meh, screw that.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Hmm.
> 
> With religion, I was always questioning? And still questioning. I've realized (as I've gone into so much, lol) that the core of Christianity is love, and I am always evaluating the things that Christian churches and individual Christians do to see if they match up to love. Are they doing this for the betterment of others? Out of the goodness of their hearts? If they aren't, I reject it. Can't tell you how many times I sat at the church program I went to with my friend last year thinking... Sigh. No. No. No, this is wrong, and this type of thinking is going to get so many people hurt. I did the same thing in Sunday School... Always challenging (for me it was more logical exploration, for the teachers they saw it as challenging) the logic behind this or that. Why do we do confession? Why are we the right religion? Why is this a sin? Why in the _world_ do we do this thing when that kind of makes us cannibals...?
> 
> But for me, at least as a kid, it was about logic. Does this make sense? How does evolution fit into our framework? How can our religion be right, but their religion be right too and them go to heaven? I think my Fe knew what was right - that we have to treat others with respect and love and kindness - and so of all things I valued that as a Christian without having to question it because, well, duh - but my Ti wanted to know about the intricacies of the Catholic Church... especially since, well, the Catholic Church has some funky stuff in its teachings, and little six year old me wanted to understand that funky stuff.


That was more a reference to a conservative/fundamentalist interpretation. Overall, it can be as simple as not believing in organized religion because spirituality is highly personal and should be left up to the individual (as explained by a religious INFP friend).


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Meh, screw that.


And you say you think for yourself


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Guyys, I can't decide between INFP or ENFP. 

After watching Michael Pierce's video about how INFPs tertiary Si allows them to write really detailed explanations about their inner world, and I realized that I am super skilled at writing vivid and detailed passages about my inner world, because my imagination is vivid.

I also spend a lot of time alone, and I'm very shy at first. I'm only more sociable later on...but...I don't know.
@laurie17 also said my Te looked inferior

I'm confused. Am I an introverted ENFP or INFP who can be very sociable at times???


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> And you say you think for yourself


Yeah, but I don't have to make up my own beliefs and contradict my upbringing, do I? ;D


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> Guyys, I can't decide between INFP or ENFP.
> 
> After watching Michael Pierce's video about how INFPs tertiary Si allows them to write really detailed explanations about their inner world, and I realized that I am super skilled at writing vivid and detailed passages about my inner world, because my imagination is vivid.
> 
> I also spend a lot of time alone, and I'm very shy at first. I'm only more sociable later on...but...I don't know.
> @_laurie17_ also said my Te looked inferior
> 
> I'm confused. Am I an introverted ENFP or INFP who can be very sociable at times???


I knew you would come back >:O

I don't know, Goose. I simply do not know anymore.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I knew you would come back >:O
> 
> I don't know, Goose. I simply do not know anymore.


Is it possible for an INFP to be very sociable when in a group of people they feel comfortable with? Or is that an ENFP thing?

Also, I've always been assertive in a sense. Not like manly dominance or the like, however more-so that I can say "no" easily and I use command sentences: "get the water", as opposed to more passive ways of speaking.
@angelcat You know these things, help me?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I think that this is an important point. My dad is conservative. And while I don't think my dad is a bigoted person - he's not - some of his foundations are pretty harmful. I'm actually tipping towards being somewhat extreme as far as socially liberal beliefs go... but I still can't break away from understanding the logic of his beliefs, and I haven't even given a clue to him that I'm not on his side anymore with all the issues. I don't know what Te would do in this situation, but I know that my Fi friends seem to not feel so hesitant about declaring their beliefs different from their family's and being upfront about them.


I'm not the same. I can't imagine hiding my beliefs from people -- my own parents? Oh, no, we disagree on a lot off things and we know it. I can smile tightly at remarks I don't agree with in public...but I'd feel like I was lying if I did not tell people what I thought.

I also think I have 'personal beliefs'...eh, I align a lot with what the Catholic Church says, but I think through these things and I have other beliefs I just...have, that I've created, that I believe in...I kinda do my own thing.
Still think I'm Fe (yeah?) but yeah, it's different.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> It could be hypocrisy or it could be personal growth, a process of shaping your beliefs.
> 
> I thought it was obvious enough the first time around, but I should have given an example.
> 
> It's 5am and you haven't slept yet...? :th_o:


More than likely hypocrisy. Personal growth doesn't react when it realizes it ate steak instead of quorn out of desperation after swearing never to eat meat again  

I need examples or I am lost. Forget talking to me if you don't have examples xD

I don't sleep, 'cause sleep is for the weak. Jk I am an insomniac.



Blue Flare said:


> @LuchoIsLurking what you mention could be just be weak Fi. I've noticed that only Fi doms have a properly built ethical system, while lower Fi users (even aux) aren't too focused on it, as it's not their main concern. I'm Fi tert and my system is basically a quite black and white thing that looks like a poor man's version of the system that a Fi dom could build lol and this should be more primitive for a Fi inf user.


Yeah, to be honest, I'm not very inclined to build my own ethical system. Infact, I'm not one to care about personal ethics at all. I'd rather just wing it, go with the flow and trust it's right. Who cares if jumping over a fence is 'wrong' in one person's eyes, when it's a regular shortcut home?  You know... 

Yes, you gotta respect that fact they think it's wrong, but you don't have to take their word for gospel if it gets you home sooner. And you know it does.
@alittlebear -Thank you for your concerns. I would be able to sleep if my mind would switch off and leave me alone . Infact, if I could sleep on demand, I would. Sadly, I can't. No matter how tired I am.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

alittlebear said:


> I'm thinking the notes, mostly. They're so beautiful, and organized, and colorful, and gorgeous? I can't imagine putting that much time into note taking, but I find it so sweet that some people are so spiked up about organizing their notes and learning like that. I guess it could be Te or Ti too? Te because they are studying to succeed, Ti because they're studying to understand all the underlying principles and stuff... But the pretty notes remind me of how my ESFJ friend apparently "takes the best notes". Could be wrong, and of course not all Si users would do that, but it seems Si.


Dunno if it's Si, or could be Je-Si, but at least my notes are a mess and I only bothered once to write with different colors, because the class was specially difficult (quantum mechanics), but otherwise my notes are all written with the same pen color and are an utter mess. I tried to organize notes for studying but gave up, felt like an useless effort lol


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I'm thinking the notes, mostly. They're so beautiful, and organized, and colorful, and gorgeous? I can't imagine putting that much time into note taking, but I find it so sweet that some people are so spiked up about organizing their notes and learning like that. I guess it could be Te or Ti too? Te because they are studying to succeed, Ti because they're studying to understand all the underlying principles and stuff... But the pretty notes remind me of how my ESFJ friend apparently "takes the best notes". Could be wrong, and of course not all Si users would do that, but it seems Si.


The organization aspect seems Te to me, but the sticky notes and highlighters in different colors and all of that...? One highlighter is all I need and it barely gets any use


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Someone help...me...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> I'm not the same. I can't imagine hiding my beliefs from people -- my own parents? Oh, no, we disagree on a lot off things and we know it. I can smile tightly at remarks I don't agree with in public...but I'd feel like I was lying if I did not tell people what I thought.
> 
> I also think I have 'personal beliefs'...eh, I align a lot with what the Catholic Church says, but I think through these things and I have other beliefs I just...have, that I've created, that I believe in...I kinda do my own thing.
> Still think I'm Fe (yeah?) but yeah, it's different.


Hmm.. I mean, some things I disagree with. My mom and dad were verbally drowning on Indian culture the other day and I said my tight-lipped "There's nothing wrong with their way of doing things, that is their culture and we have to respect it, no culture is superior to another," but... Usually I just say nothing, especially about big political stuff. I just can't bear the thought of my dad learning how I really feel and realizing that I'm just another ignorant kid. Sigh.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> More than likely hypocrisy. Personal growth doesn't react when it realizes it ate steak instead of quorn out of desperation after swearing never to eat meat again
> 
> I need examples or I am lost. Forget talking to me if you don't have examples xD
> 
> I don't sleep, 'cause sleep is for the weak. Jk I am an insomniac.


Don't even have the energy to tackle your first point 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, to be honest, I'm not very inclined to build my own ethical system. Infact, I'm not one to care about personal ethics at all. I'd rather just wing it, go with the flow and trust it's right. Who cares if jumping over a fence is 'wrong' in one person's eyes, when it's a regular shortcut home?  You know...
> 
> Yes, you gotta respect that fact they think it's wrong, but you don't have to take their word for gospel if it gets you home sooner. And you know it does.
> @_alittlebear_ -Thank you for your concerns. I would be able to sleep if my mind would switch off and leave me alone . Infact, if I could sleep on demand, I would. Sadly, I can't. No matter how tired I am.


When you say "who cares if jumping over a fence is 'wrong'..." There's a touch of Fi there.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, to be honest, I'm not very inclined to build my own ethical system. Infact, I'm not one to care about personal ethics at all. I'd rather just wing it, go with the flow and trust it's right. Who cares if jumping over a fence is 'wrong' in one person's eyes, when it's a regular shortcut home?  You know...
> 
> Yes, you gotta respect that fact they think it's wrong, but you don't have to take their word for gospel if it gets you home sooner. And you know it does.


I notice a clear efficiency focus, and that's usually correlated with Te. I also walk around the grass even if that's supposedly forbidden, but I don't care as I didn't find a shorter route for going somewhere. To be honest one of the few rules that I have is to not steal info and claim it as my own work, as that shit is one of the worst things that a scientist could do, same with not copying during tests. So yeah, quite primitive stuff XD


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> When you say "who cares if jumping over a fence is 'wrong'..." There's a touch of Fi there.


Yeah. Meh, but it doesn't make me a Te-Dom lol. Everyone uses their eight functions somehow, sometime.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> I'm not the same. I can't imagine hiding my beliefs from people -- my own parents? Oh, no, we disagree on a lot off things and we know it. I can smile tightly at remarks I don't agree with in public...but I'd feel like I was lying if I did not tell people what I thought.
> 
> I also think I have 'personal beliefs'...eh, I align a lot with what the Catholic Church says, but I think through these things and I have other beliefs I just...have, that I've created, that I believe in...I kinda do my own thing.
> Still think I'm Fe (yeah?) but yeah, it's different.


Everyone can have personal beliefs, it's not just Fi D:

But I agree that Fi tends to be more outspoken here and there.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah. Meh, but it doesn't make me a Te-Dom lol. Everyone uses their eight functions somehow, sometime.


...denial...


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> ...denial...


What? Do you seriously think I have Extroverted Thinking oozing from every crevice of my entire being? 

*Laughs*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> What? Do you seriously think I have Extroverted Thinking oozing from every crevice of my entire being?
> 
> *Laughs*


More than Fe, at least...


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> What? Do you seriously think I have Extroverted Thinking oozing from every crevice of my entire being?
> 
> *Laughs*


...not comprehending due to lack of sleep...


----------



## Dragheart Luard

LuchoIsLurking said:


> What? Do you seriously think I have Extroverted Thinking oozing from every crevice of my entire being?
> 
> *Laughs*


Most people don't notice their own dom function, because that's their autopilot mode. It's far easier to spot the aux and tert and mistake it with your dom


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


> More than Fe, at least...


If I am a Te-Dom, Einstein was an ESFP. How does that sound?


shinynotshiny said:


> ...not comprehending due to lack of sleep...


No sabes Nada, mi linda amiga.
@Blue Flare- I am lousy, regardless of type.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> More than Fe, at least...


.. @LuchoIsLurking listen to the Fe dom...


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@LuchoIsLurking I've seen many examples of that confusion, like a friend that is ESFP but thought that she was ENTJ at first, or people that think that are Fi doms and are some IXTJ, so that can explain why you deny your Te -troll-


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> If I am a Te-Dom, Einstein was an ESFP. How does that sound?
> 
> No sabes Nada, mi linda amiga.


----------



## Max

Blue Flare said:


> @LuchoIsLurking I've seen many examples of that confusion, like a friend that is ESFP but thought that she was ENTJ at first, or people that think that are Fi doms and are some IXTJ, so that can explain why you deny your Te -troll-


Yeah, but you people are fucking with me. You are confusing my understanding of the functions with your understanding xD


shinynotshiny said:


> .. @LuchoIsLurking listen to the Fe dom...


How do we know for sure she is an Fe-Dom and not an Fe-Aux using her Extroverted Functions and appearing more Fe than she is in real life?  Food for thought.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, but you people are fucking with me. You are confusing my understanding of the functions with your understanding xD


Nah, it's only showing possible reasons why typing can be tricky. The autopilot mode of the dom has trolled more people so don't worry, you will figure this out sooner or later.


----------



## Max

Blue Flare said:


> Nah, it's only showing possible reasons why typing can be tricky. The autopilot mode of the dom has trolled more people so don't worry, you will figure this out sooner or later.


Yeah but I still dont see it. This Te facade. Lol, no matter how hard I look or interpret it.


----------



## zenobia

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah. Meh, but it doesn't make me a Te-Dom lol. Everyone uses their eight functions somehow, sometime.


I'm sorry to interject on your guys conversation, but I thought the discussion of Fi to be fascinating. I'm curious what evidence do you have that would support this statement. I realize you might be tired/ sleep deprived so feel free to ignore if you wish.

Is it at all plausible that rather than using all 8 functions, you're using two of your four functions to express an idea/ take some form of action which in turn looks like a specific function but stems from a different place or motivation. 

I'm still new to the cognitive functions, so I could be way off base but I'm really curious to hear what you guys think.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

@shinynotshiny @alittlebear @LuchoIsLurking 

I think I may be an INFP after all...

One who is very talkative around people she knows and trusts. But other than that, no one.


----------



## Immolate

@_zenobia_ I've always had a hard time when it comes to functions interacting with each other and mimicking another. Hopefully someone else can jump in 

@_TelepathicGoose_ I'm the same way. I leave it up to you to decide.


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> @shinynotshiny @alittlebear @LuchoIsLurking
> 
> I think I may be an INFP after all...
> 
> One who is very talkative around people she knows and trusts. But other than that, no one.


Yes. You can be socially extroverted, yet cognitively introverted. I am pretty sure I am socially extroverted, regardless of function order 

I am glad you are getting some closure, Gosling.



zenobia said:


> I'm sorry to interject on your guys conversation, but I thought the discussion of Fi to be fascinating. I'm curious what evidence do you have that would support this statement. I realize you might be tired/ sleep deprived so feel free to ignore if you wish.
> 
> Is it at all plausible that rather than using all 8 functions, you're using two of your four functions to express an idea/ take some form of action which in turn looks like a specific function but stems from a different place or motivation.
> 
> I'm still new to the cognitive functions, so I could be way off base but I'm really curious to hear what you guys think.


Hm.. 

 http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16Types/16Types.cfm


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes. You can be socially extroverted, yet cognitively introverted. I am pretty sure I am socially extroverted, regardless of function order
> 
> I am glad you are getting some closure, Gosling.


I don't think I'm socially extroverted, just capable of being social around people I feel comfortable with. This is normal, yes?


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Hey guys, I ordered the types in order from the thinnest to the widest type:

ISFJ
ISTJ
INFJ
INTJ
ISFP
ISTP
INFP
INTJ
ESFJ
ESTJ
ESFP
ESTP
ENFJ
ENTJ
ENFP
ENTP

Real useful time spent, yes?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> .. @LuchoIsLurking listen to the Fe dom...












Is there not an I in my declared type 

(Though I was watching Margaery clips today and thinking of how lovely ESFJs are...)


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> I don't think I'm socially extroverted, just capable of being social around people I feel comfortable with. This is normal, yes?


Yes.



> Hey guys, I ordered the types in order from the thinnest to the widest type:
> 
> ISFJ
> ISTJ
> INFJ
> INTJ
> ISFP
> ISTP
> INFP
> INTP
> ESFJ
> ESTJ
> ESFP
> ESTP
> ENFP
> ENTP
> 
> Real useful time spent, yes?


D:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

TelepathicGoose said:


> Hey guys, I ordered the types in order from the thinnest to the widest type:
> 
> ISFJ
> ISTJ
> INFJ
> INTJ
> ISFP
> ISTP
> INFP
> INTP
> ESFJ
> ESTJ
> ESFP
> ESTP
> ENFP
> ENTP
> 
> Real useful time spent, yes?


You have no idea how typist this looked at first glance


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> Hey guys, I ordered the types in order from the thinnest to the widest type:
> 
> ISFJ
> ISTJ
> INFJ
> INTJ
> ISFP
> ISTP
> INFP
> INTP
> ESFJ
> ESTJ
> ESFP
> ESTP
> ENFP
> ENTP
> 
> Real useful time spent, yes?


It's funny how the pattern is. ISFJ is the thinnest, ENTP is thw widest. ISTJ is the second thinnest, ENFP is the second widest etc. Look at it.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

LuchoIsLurking said:


> It's funny how the pattern is. ISFJ is the thinnest, ENTP is thw widest. ISTJ is the second thinnest, ENFP is the second widest etc. Look at it.


I know, I did that on purpose...


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

alittlebear said:


> You have no idea how typist this looked at first glance


But it isn't! I was just doing it by the words not the weight of each actual person of the type...


----------



## Max

TelepathicGoose said:


> I know, I did that on purpose...


I kinda thought that, but pointed it out incase ;D And you changed INTP to INTJ *glares* Was that on purpose too, to see if I could spot logical inconsistencies? ;D



alittlebear said:


> Is there not an I in my declared type
> 
> (Though I was watching Margaery clips today and thinking of how lovely ESFJs are...)


Exactly. Haha.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Exactly. Haha.


You, sir, can't even figure out your own type.



TelepathicGoose said:


> I know, I did that on purpose...


I think I'm reaching my limit. I can't follow in your footsteps, Goose. Brain is switching off, bed is beside me.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> You, sir, can't even figure out your own type.


I think I am sticking with ISFJ :/ This is all Telly's fault. She started it ;D She thought I might have beena confused ISTP  Nunca en mi vida!


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I think I'm reaching my limit. I can't follow in your footsteps, Goose. Brain is switching off, bed is beside me.


Aw, sorry if I confused you. Goodnight, shiny Spocky Queen.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think I am sticking with ISFJ :/ This is all Telly's fault. She started it ;D She thought I might have beena confused ISTP  Nunca en mi vida!


You know nothing, Lucho.

@TelepathicGoose, I mean I don't want to start passing time by making lists. Not tonight.

"Shiny Spocky Queen" 

thank you :')


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> You know nothing, Lucho.


I know. No sabes nada. I am the first one to admit that. I never knew anything, don't know anything and never will know anything 

Sorry for being a bad Luchador tonight. Sorry if I made you feel bad. Sorry. Hey, if it's any consollation, I feel bad for starting this whole debate.


----------



## ElliCat

alittlebear said:


> Sometimes I stay away from people who are suffering what I have because I wonder if it's not inappropriate of me to show I relate when they don't know my story (and how can I show them my story?). For example, my professor's mother died,and a few girls said they were sorry... I've known so many people who have died. I could have said that I knew his pain, but it couldn't say that without expressing how I've experienced it, and saying that I've been to thirteen funerals rather diminishes his pain... Of course I do know how he feels, but I can only give my trademark gentle, soft smile and sad, abashed blink to show this.


This one's a bit more of a delicate situation... even at the best of times some people just don't take kindly to someone outright saying, "I know how you feel," because you know, we might _think_ that we know, but who's to really say that we do? 

In all honesty, I feel woefully incompetent in these situations compared to my Fe-dom mother. She seems to thrive in situations like these - not that she doesn't find them hard and painful, of course she does! but she just seems to know exactly what needs to be done and how to do it. I find it hard to put words to what I'm feeling a lot of the time, and it's only intensified in difficult moments, where you know that nothing you could possibly say or do will make things better, and the wrong words could be even more devastating.

In that situation I would probably do exactly what you do. Maybe ask what they need, or tell them that if they need anything, to let me know. The last time unfortunately wasn't very long ago, and I was in a different country... I think I just sent a message to say that I heard the news and was sorry, and that I just wanted to let them know that I was thinking of them. Luckily the rest of my family could be a bit more present, but I thought they probably just needed to know that I was thinking of them, without any flowery speeches or long drawn-out conversations. Personally I know I would need distance, but if someone else wants something more from me I'm happy to give them more.



> Do you mind if I ask why you help those you can't relate to? I know it's a silly stereotype that Fi users can only help those they relate to (and one I have gravely misunderstood in the past), but I am curious what you could say brings you to help those who you don't know the pain of.


I'm hijacking this question!!

What brings me to help people I can't relate to is a feeling of shared humanity. Even if I can't relate to them on a personal level, or if we have a vastly different background, they're still human and they still feel in the same way that I feel. I have a great theoretical love of humanity and I believe in our potential. When it comes to actually interacting with them one-on-one I'm a lot less loving and a lot less interested in them - there's really got to be a connection for me to let someone in - but I do wish the best for people and would never want for them to hurt. I just want them to find the best far away from my personal space. XD


----------



## orbit

Oh that brings a new question up

What's everyone's opinions on humanity?


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Oh that brings a new question up
> 
> What's everyone's opinions on humanity?


We're assholes who can occasionally meet the height of martyrs. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

@angelcat I'm fairly new to tumblr, so I'm going to ask this here because it's relevant anyway.

You recently posted about Te vs Ti and how they acted in each position of the function stack. My question is... why is Te so focused on money??


----------



## orbit

Would it be Si to keep a journal to record attitude changes? And another one to record reminders to self in the future (i.e. Keep wrist back on shots, there's a difference between knowing and understanding and blabla)

Darn it, the Se thing is still nagging my thing because I should fit the descriptions but I don't. =/

I was wondering the same thing about money too lol.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Would it be Si to keep a journal to record attitude changes? And another one to record reminders to self in the future (i.e. Keep wrist back on shots, there's a difference between knowing and understanding and blabla)
> 
> Darn it, the Se thing is still nagging my thing because I should fit the descriptions but I don't. =/
> 
> I was wondering the same thing about money too lol.


Hmm, I used to journal a lot and keep a dream log, but this was mostly because of problems with my mood and my tendency toward vivid dreaming (eugh). It was more about keeping track of my state of mind. Do you relate to this? If so, I wouldn't necessarily call it Si.

The reminders may be Si... or Te in some fashion. Truthfully, Si confounds me most of the time.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Hmm, I used to journal a lot and keep a dream log, but this was mostly because of problems with my mood and my tendency toward vivid dreaming (eugh). It was more about keeping track of my state of mind. Do you relate to this? If so, I wouldn't necessarily call it Si.
> 
> The reminders may be Si... or Te in some fashion. Truthfully, Si confounds me most of the time.


Not really. Sometimes I journal to deal with current stresses but most of the time I force myself to write stuff down so I can look back and be like "okay I improved and changed so much. How interesting!" 

Si and Ni and Se and Ne all confound me even though their nature seems innocent enough ewe


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Not really. Sometimes I journal to deal with current stresses but most of the time I force myself to write stuff down so I can look back and be like "okay I improved and changed so much. How interesting!"
> 
> Si and Ni and Se and Ne all confound me even though their nature seems innocent enough ewe


I see! I also did that for some time because I wanted to look over my personal growth. (I also don't trust personal memories as much as other people do lol)

Si, Ti, and mystical Ni for me because of such varied experiences


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I see! I also did that for some time because I wanted to look over my personal growth. (I also don't trust personal memories as much as other people do lol)
> 
> Si, Ti, and mystical Ni for me because of such varied experiences


But not Ne?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> But not Ne?


Ne is a little speck in the middle of nowhere that explodes in all directions as a series of ideas and possibilities. Or so I believe


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> Ne is a little speck in the middle of nowhere that explodes in all directions as a series of ideas and possibilities. Or so I believe


It's not in the middle of nowhere...

It's in the middle of...


_EVERYWHERE._


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Ne is a little speck in the middle of nowhere that explodes in all directions as a series of ideas and possibilities. Or so I believe


Pshhh. I asked Greyhart that and she told me it was staring at the little speck and seeing a kite, a hamburger, and a drone going after Mark Anthony's buttocks. Or at least that's what I think she said 

The problem is that I can't imagine a Se user spending the majority of her time day dreaming and avoiding organizations/groups/clubs


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> Pshhh. I asked Greyhart that and she told me it was staring at the little speck and seeing a kite, a hamburger, and a drone going after Mark Anthony's buttocks. Or at least that's what I think she said
> 
> The problem is that I can't imagine a Se user spending the majority of her time day dreaming and avoiding organizations/groups/clubs


True. Se loves going and doing things, the last thing they typically do is avoid organizations/groups/clubs. Unless, of course, they're a very depressed ISFP who is fearful of other humans.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Swagilicious double post.


----------



## Immolate

TelepathicGoose said:


> It's not in the middle of nowhere...
> 
> It's in the middle of...
> 
> 
> _EVERYWHERE._


I stand corrected. I apologize, Mighty Goose!



Curiphant said:


> Pshhh. I asked Greyhart that and she told me it was staring at the little speck and seeing a kite, a hamburger, and a drone going after Mark Anthony's buttocks. Or at least that's what I think she said


Yes, that sounds like @Greyhart :laughing:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

shinynotshiny said:


> I stand corrected. I apologize, Mighty Goose!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that sounds like @Greyhart :laughing:


Your apology is accepted, Shiny Spocky Queen.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> True. Se loves going and doing things, the last thing they typically do is avoid organizations/groups/clubs. Unless, of course, they're a very depressed ISFP who is fearful of other humans.


I'm either a weird ENFP or ESFP. =/

I'm not depressed and I am not fearful of other humans

Maybe it's because I hold infinite doubt over high school students hm. Why do I like talking to people and floating around but hate being tied down? 

Oh my cow, do I have commitment issues? I don't think so because I've been at the same things for quite a while... ^^'


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I'm either a weird ENFP or ESFP. =/
> 
> I'm not depressed and I am not fearful of other humans
> 
> Maybe it's because I hold infinite doubt over high school students hm. Why do I like talking to people and floating around but hate being tied down?
> 
> Oh my cow, do I have commitment issues? I don't think so because I've been at the same things for quite a while... ^^'


Well, both ENFPs and ESFPs are notorious for commitment issues, buuuuut...not necessarily so. 

You seem more sensor-y to me, and yet you don't seem Se. The last thing you are is an SJ type, so really I don't know.


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, both ENFPs and ESFPs are notorious for commitment issues, buuuuut...not necessarily so.
> 
> You seem more sensor-y to me, and yet you don't seem Se. The last thing you are is an SJ type, so really I don't know.



I'm an ISFJ 

Idk. Seem sensory but not overtly so. That kind of implies weak Se but it's supposed to be my weakest function and the penumilate thing I am is INTJ.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I'm an ISFJ
> 
> Idk. Seem sensory but not overtly so. That kind of implies weak Se but it's supposed to be my weakest function and the penumilate thing I am is INTJ.


Nah, you're not an ISFJ. Well, maybe...are there really _this_ many ISFJs in the world?

Maybe if I knew you better, I'd be able to judge more correctly. Although, I could see ESFP for you.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I'm an ISFJ
> 
> Idk. Seem sensory but not overtly so. That kind of implies weak Se but it's supposed to be my weakest function and the penumilate thing I am is INTJ.



What's the last?


----------



## orbit

TelepathicGoose said:


> Nah, you're not an ISFJ. Well, maybe...are there really _this_ many ISFJs in the world?
> 
> Maybe if I knew you better, I'd be able to judge more correctly. Although, I could see ESFP for you.


I bet my Te is hijacking something. 
I'll go with ESFP for now.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> What's the last?


SJ obviously. Keep up or fall down dude


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> SJ obviously. Keep up or fall down dude



I have an ingrained reaction to "dude."


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I have an ingrained reaction to "dude."


Why man? Why? That's totally not groovy dude. I'm disappointed with your lack of chillness, bro.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Why man? Why? That's totally not groovy dude. I'm disappointed with your lack of chillness, bro.



Ah, yes. A relic of dark times.


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Journal: 5/31/2019

Everyone in the world has turned into an ISFJ, world peace has finally been achieved.
People give each other hugs and cookies on the streets and everyone is too busy inside reading historical romance novels to create future conflict.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> I bet my Te is hijacking something.
> I'll go with ESFP for now.


Alrighty. You do remind me a bit of my ESFP cousin, so that would make sense. ^^


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Avalnoah said:


> Journal: 5/31/2019
> 
> Everyone in the world has turned into an ISFJ, world peace has finally been achieved.
> People give each other hugs and cookies on the streets and everyone is too busy inside reading historical romance novels to create future conflict.


The question here is, however, how in the world did everyone become an ISFJ in 4 years? Did we all die out, or did we get genetically engineered to become the societal ideal type?


----------



## Max

alittlebear said:


>


So... ISFJs are Disney Princesses, movie characrers and woman? That's sexist. That might offend someone ;D



TelepathicGoose said:


> A good example of an ISFJ would be alittlebear. Do you think you act or think like her?


*Cough* Himmler *Cough* was an ISFJ. He never acted like "a typical ISFJ", yet he was one. He just didn't use his Functions for the betterment of humanity in an orthadox way. 

Does every single INFJ act like Jesus? Ghandi? No. Get these archetypes out of your head. 



Oswin said:


> Lucho, I know I said SFJ seemed possible before, but I'm really thinking STJ now.
> Can you explain why you're thinking ISFJ?


Simple. Because I don't use Te and Fi alongside Si and Ne. Why is that so hard to understand?


Curiphant said:


> Excuse me, he was clearly my type!


;D


ElliCat said:


> OMG I'm actually commenting in here... going back to lurking soon... just wanted to clarify something...
> 
> 
> I'm assuming it was just a quick example pulled from nowhere (and therefore not meant to be 100% accurate) but it's not really how I experience Fi. If someone thinks that jumping over a fence is wrong, well, as far as I'm concerned, they think that jumping over a fence is wrong. Ne makes me _curious_ about their belief - why do they believe this, and is there something of value I can take from it? - but even if I appear to respect it on the surface, it's more that I respect their right to hold their own opinions than actually agreeing with them, per se.
> 
> As an Fi-dom, I won't jump over the fence if _I_ believe it's wrong. I don't care about bloody efficient it is, and I don't care whether I'll get caught or not. I just don't want to live with the feeling of guilt afterwards, of knowing that I did it even though I believed it was wrong. Moral consistency is very important to me.
> 
> But that's an oddly specific value judgement to have for an Fi-dom. INFP's will often try to tease out all the varying shades of grey in a hypothetical situation, just for funsies. I never _ever_ thought about it as "building an ethical system" until I read the theories and thought, well, that kind of does describe it, heh. I just assumed - obviously erraneously - that most people thought about right and wrong. ISFP's are more inclined to wait until a situation actually occurs before they decide the right thing to do; any speculation beforehand is seen as useless. But it's more like, we have core values, things like "honesty", "kindness", "loyalty", "open-mindedness" or whatever. So one goal is to embody these things. Anything beyond that I guess is dependant on what the individual values, and their maturity/mental health/life situation etc.
> 
> Where the perceived rigidity comes in is that we're flexible _until_ you try to force us to go against what we feel is the right thing to do. I think that quite often other people see it as something small and insignificant and so we get a reputation for being dogmatic and unyielding over the tiniest things. But there's a lot more going on behind that. We're just not very good at explaining it. XD
> 
> But yeah, "going with the flow" doesn't actually disqualify Fi. I think ISFP's can be a lot that way. They care about their own integrity but it's more in the moment, just see what happens and then they'll know what to do.
> 
> 
> ... or maybe not ISFP, heh. Efficiency over value judgements?
> 
> Sorry... hiding again. :th_blush:


I am positive I am not an ISFP or ExTJ, because I come across as "cold", and want to be efficient sometimes. Have you ever heard of the phrase "loosing hope in humanity?" I am, right now. You can't expect me to help everyone, and be shitting out rainbows and being empathetic when I'm not in the right frame of mind to. 

You can't expect one person to hold the weight of humanity on their shoulders. Everyone needs to help each other. And right now, I just don't know anymore. The more I give, the more humans let me down. The more I care, the harder I get slapped on the face. 

I just want to give up, and go live in some far corner of the Earth for a year. But I can't just give up. Everyone needs someone.
@Avalnoah- My enneagram is counterphobic 6w7, 8w7 and 4w5.


----------



## Immolate

Avalnoah said:


> Journal: 5/31/2019
> 
> Everyone in the world has turned into an ISFJ, world peace has finally been achieved.
> People give each other hugs and cookies on the streets and everyone is too busy inside reading historical romance novels to create future conflict.


I would perfect a cookie recipe and give away free cookies, yes. Then I would perfect pies.

No historical romance, though.


----------



## Rebel Sheep

TelepathicGoose said:


> The question here is, however, how in the world did everyone become an ISFJ in 4 years? Did we all die out, or did we get genetically engineered to become the societal ideal type?


The true ISFJ comes back from his decades long slumber to catalyze the ISFJfication process. He shows us the light and we all become ISFJ in his honor.

(This is just my reaction to everyone in this thread turning into an ISFJ )


----------



## orbit

That dude was also listed as an ISFJ so um. Not sexist or Disney


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I am positive I am not an ISFP or ExTJ, because I come across as "cold", and want to be efficient sometimes. Have you ever heard of the phrase "loosing hope in humanity?" I am, right now. You can't expect me to help everyone, and be shitting out rainbows and being empathetic when I'm not in the right frame of mind to.


You don't across Te/Fi for those reasons.


----------



## orbit

Avalnoah said:


> Journal: 5/31/2019
> 
> Everyone in the world has turned into an ISFJ, world peace has finally been achieved.
> People give each other hugs and cookies on the streets and everyone is too busy inside reading historical romance novels to create future conflict.


World obesity is on the rampant but it has the fortunate side effect of everyone being too chubby to kill eachother.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> World obesity is on the rampant but it has the fortunate side effect of everyone being too chubby to kill eachother.


OR

more people helping and encouraging each other to go out and be happy and healthy.


----------



## orbit

We should all pretend to be ISFJ for a day. National ISFJ day.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> OR
> 
> more people helping and encouraging each other to go out and be happy and healthy.


They found a way to make oreo cookies out of spinach, artichokes, and mangoes


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> We should all pretend to be ISFJ for a day. National ISFJ day.


I recoil at Fe.



Curiphant said:


> They found a way to make oreo cookies out of spinach, artichokes, and mangoes


I like spinach, artichokes, and mangoes.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I recoil at Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> I like spinach, artichokes, and mangoes.


The spinach, artichokes, and mangoes will drive you to Fe


----------



## orbit

Say for a project, where you had to make a poster, what if you made a giant paper crane poster instead of flat one. Is that Se?


----------



## 68097

NobleRaven said:


> @angelcat Because I am too ashamed to tag you in other threads, I would love to brisk a question in this thread which should help me clarify an idea:
> 
> What are the differences between Si sensitivity to sensory stimuli and the inferior Se one?


 @NobleRaven: Si is primarily concerned with inner sensations. Does this make me feel sick? Tired? Hot? Cold? Do I like how it feels on my hand? Does it make me itch? What does it mean to me? Anything? Nothing at all? It holds no value to me? It strikes nothing within me? If so, Si thrusts it away and is totally disinterested. 

Se is interested in external experiences. Opportunism. Acting in the moment, for immediate results. Inferior Se is pushed away in favor of higher abstractions and experiences. The mind and body are entwined in the abstract and the idealism, the body is ... repugnant, troublesome.

Inferior Se is either abused (promiscuity, recklessness, blowing entire paychecks on stupid things) or ignored (in which case the INXJ is totally detached from reality and lacking any concrete facts, with no ability to act quickly in the moment). Se is objectivity. External focus. 

Not sure how to further define it, really. 



shinynotshiny said:


> @angelcat I'm fairly new to tumblr, so I'm going to ask this here because it's relevant anyway.
> 
> You recently posted about Te vs Ti and how they acted in each position of the function stack. My question is... why is Te so focused on money??


 @shinynotshiny: Te measures things through objective, external standards. Thus, success means ... you sell a lot of copies. You win a lot of awards. You get a PhD. You make a lot of money. These are the measures by which the world determines success: provable, tangible, factual things. 

I was discussing the film "Amadeus" with an INTJ, and she pointed out that she completely understands the main character's problem with Mozart, because TJ believes that hard work should trump talent every time. Some lazy young upstart comes in and is a success despite having no work ethic? HORRID. DIE IN A FIRE. YOU SUCK. 

I've known ISTJs and INTJs both and with the exception of the INTJ who cannot work due to injuries, all of them have a strong focus on ... success. Making money. Both of them take their work very seriously, and cast a bad eye on anyone who does not value hard work yielding some kind of result. The introverted TJs are not nearly as driven to make money as the extroverts (mostly workaholics, there), but they still want to ... do a good job, get paid, and have a decent standard of living. It just... comes with the territory. Even in my own family, my mother (ISTJ) is geared toward turning a profit, and finishing what she starts, and seeing tangible results. She will work 6 hours later than the rest of us on a project, because she wants to see it through, and has ... a strong work ethic. 
@Oswin: I often watch things through the library. Free. Yay. Also, the biggest ISFJ to ever ISFJ is Rory Gilmore, from Gilmore Girls.



TelepathicGoose said:


> Is it possible for an INFP to be very sociable when in a group of people they feel comfortable with? Or is that an ENFP thing?
> 
> Also, I've always been assertive in a sense. Not like manly dominance or the like, however more-so that I can say "no" easily and I use command sentences: "get the water", as opposed to more passive ways of speaking.
> @angelcat You know these things, help me?


 @TelepathicGoose: the best way to determine Ne dominance is ... does Ne run and control your entire life? Does it dictate everything? Do you fling yourself into situations without thought, or do you hold back and test the waters first?


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> @_shinynotshiny_: Te measures things through objective, external standards. Thus, success means ... you sell a lot of copies. You win a lot of awards. You get a PhD. You make a lot of money. These are the measures by which the world determines success: provable, tangible, factual things.
> 
> I was discussing the film "Amadeus" with an INTJ, and she pointed out that she completely understands the main character's problem with Mozart, because TJ believes that hard work should trump talent every time. Some lazy young upstart comes in and is a success despite having no work ethic? HORRID. DIE IN A FIRE. YOU SUCK.
> 
> I've known ISTJs and INTJs both and with the exception of the INTJ who cannot work due to injuries, all of them have a strong focus on ... success. Making money. Both of them take their work very seriously, and cast a bad eye on anyone who does not value hard work yielding some kind of result. The introverted TJs are not nearly as driven to make money as the extroverts (mostly workaholics, there), but they still want to ... do a good job, get paid, and have a decent standard of living. It just... comes with the territory. Even in my own family, my mother (ISTJ) is geared toward turning a profit, and finishing what she starts, and seeing tangible results. She will work 6 hours later than the rest of us on a project, because she wants to see it through, and has ... a strong work ethic.


I understand the reasoning, but I think it's a stretch to reduce Te to monetary gain.


----------



## orbit

If Ne and Se flings itself into everything without a thought, I might be introverted then


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> I understand the reasoning, but I think it's a stretch to reduce Te to monetary gain.


Another trait of Te: the never-ending, annoying nitpicking.


----------



## orbit

I like your tumblr post in response to all of this going-ons here ^^


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Another trait of Te: the never-ending, annoying nitpicking.


Seriously?

I expect better than that from you, tbh.

Jumping to another topic:



angelcat said:


> Se is interested in external experiences. Opportunism. Acting in the moment, for immediate results. Inferior Se is pushed away in favor of higher abstractions and experiences. The mind and body are entwined in the abstract and the idealism, *the body is ... repugnant, troublesome*.


I would say this is one of the major reasons I have such an interest in cyberpunk and robotics. I'd rather exist primarily as my mind and do away with this body. Then again, there still exists a sense of body horror when I imagine myself incapable of exerting my will on the environment. I'd rather have control of my environment rather than have it control me. I get a bit angry when I think about dying before seeing things like this come to fruition.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Seriously?


You should meet my ESTJ uncle. He challenges everything you say, constantly, and makes you defend it on logical terms. You can't even use the slightest exaggeration without it segueing into a 45 minute discussion. He will correct everything you say. He's all but turned my aunt into a drone. I sometimes wonder if she has a single thought left that is entirely her own. It explains why she doesn't talk much -- defending oneself constantly is exhausting after awhile. 

You ask me questions, then nitpick my answers. I find that frustrating emotionally and taxing to my Ti, which struggles to be frank, articulate, and short-winded. Maybe if you cared to actually pose a counter argument, or articulate the functions better, I wouldn't find it as frustrating, but you seem merely inclined to oppose, rather than craft. IE, "Nah," instead of, "This is why I think that is too limiting..."

PS: I'm not upset. Much. Just slightly annoyed.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> You should meet my ESTJ uncle. He challenges everything you say, constantly, and makes you defend it on logical terms. You can't even use the slightest exaggeration without it segueing into a 45 minute discussion. He will correct everything you say. He's all but turned my aunt into a drone. I sometimes wonder if she has a single thought left that is entirely her own. It explains why she doesn't talk much -- defending oneself constantly is exhausting after awhile.
> 
> You ask me questions, then nitpick my answers. I find that frustrating emotionally and taxing to my Ti, which struggles to be frank, articulate, and short-winded. Maybe if you cared to actually pose a counter argument, or articulate the functions better, I wouldn't find it as frustrating, but you seem merely inclined to oppose, rather than craft.


Yes, because Te manifests the same way in all Te users.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> ... Barry...  Ouch, it's raining over there where you are? Now I feel sorry for you. :dry: Jeez, am I the only one who doesn't like coffee, tea *OR* alcohol? :laughing:


What _do_ you drink?


----------



## Immolate

> *Te-dom*: I’m going to make lots of money and I know exactly how to do it. Everyone should have a strong work ethic. I do.
> 
> 
> *Te-aux*: I want to make money, and believe in a strong work ethic. Hard work beats slipshod talent any day of the week. Stick to it.
> 
> 
> *Te-tert*: I want to make money, but staying interested in what I am doing is more important to me.
> 
> 
> *Te-inferior*: I would like to make money, but not at the cost of my art. I wish I knew better how to turn a profit. I get angry and defensive if someone accuses me of not knowing what I am doing.


You have reduced Te to "Do I make money?" and "Do I not make money?"

Now compared to your descriptions of Ti:



> *Ti-dom*: I know how things work, and enjoy solving problems. Logical consistency means a great deal to me. I am (often) good with systems and mathematics.
> 
> 
> *Ti-aux*: I want things to make logical sense, and often use that to get what I want. I am quite good at making money at the spur of the moment through winging it, but not always enthusiastic about the details.
> 
> 
> *Ti-tert*: I want to know why people make the decisions they do, and how things work. I am very interested in analyzing my own dislikes, likes, interests, feelings, behaviors, and motivations. I want to be rational.
> 
> 
> *Ti-inferior*: I want to be rational, but find it hard to be objective about people. I wish I were better at not letting my emotions get involved. I sometimes lash out when someone challenges me on logical terms.


I can't be the only one scratching my head at all that money. I gave my point of view and you dismissed it by calling Te nitpicky and annoying, so :/


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> You should meet my ESTJ uncle. He challenges everything you say, constantly, and makes you defend it on logical terms. You can't even use the slightest exaggeration without it segueing into a 45 minute discussion. He will correct everything you say. He's all but turned my aunt into a drone. I sometimes wonder if she has a single thought left that is entirely her own. It explains why she doesn't talk much -- defending oneself constantly is exhausting after awhile.


Ah, I think I have the same ESTJ uncle. He's a very...earnest, nice guy, but he's also totally down with challenging my 98-year old grandmother's religion and politics. (She says, "We'll get together next Christmas, God willing," and he says, "That is, assuming an ancient Semitic deity has some sort of supernatural effect on lifespans. Actually..." (or, I exaggerate, but that's pretty much it)
Anytime anyone's talking to him I'm just hoping no one will make a joke or anything of the sort or we will get a nice lecture on why that couldn't actually happen. There's like 20 topics you can't near or...it's dissertation time. It would be very funny if it wasn't so annoying) He reminds me a lot of Cliff Claven from Cheers. 

I have an ExTJ grandfather on the other side who's the nicest guy you could ever meet (even if his face only has one default expression, which is 'vaguely grumpy') 

Anyways, your post was interesting to me. Knowing about Te and where Te is coming from helps me kinda see what's going on with these people.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> You have reduced Te to "Do I make money?" and "Do I not make money?"
> 
> I can't be the only one scratching my head at all that money. I gave my point of view and you dismissed it by calling Te nitpicky and annoying, so :/


You're free to type up your own perception of Te, in the four positions. I'd be happy to switch it out with mine.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> I would say this is one of the major reasons I have such an interest in cyberpunk and robotics. I'd rather exist primarily as my mind and do away with this body. Then again, there still exists a sense of body horror when I imagine myself incapable of exerting my will on the environment. I'd rather have control of my environment rather than have it control me. I get a bit angry when I think about dying before seeing things like this come to fruition.


And you call yourself ISTJ ... why, again? (Did you do it to challenge the anti-sensor stereotype?) You've always struck me as Ni/Te.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> You're free to type up your own perception of Te, in the four positions. I'd be happy to switch it out with mine.


Is that your default response when someone disagrees with you? 

I gave my experience with aux Te a few posts back. You'll notice it had nothing to do with money. I could sit here and waste my time typing up other descriptions, but do I really need to argue that Te isn't about monetary gain? Really?


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> And you call yourself ISTJ ... why, again? (Did you do it to challenge the anti-sensor stereotype?) You've always struck me as Ni/Te.


And others have told me otherwise. I've considered myself ISTJ longer than I've even thought about INTJ because of the lack of understanding of Si and Ni. I'd still like to solidify my understanding of INTJ before calling myself INTJ. Clearly this means I don't understand functions at all and my arguments are invalid.

[Edit] I'd also like to add that your blog is your own and you have the right to post anything and everything you want. I'm not arguing that you should change your post. I was genuinely surprised about the descriptions and I wanted to understand them.


----------



## 68097

There are almost 500 pages on this thread. I do not read every single one. I only check back if someone tags me -- so I did not see any posts from you about being a Te-aux.

What do you want? An apology? Fine. I'm sorry I reduced Te to being about money. I will take my exhausted brain over to my tumblr and try and come up with something better for that post.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> There are almost 500 pages on this thread. I do not read every single one. I only check back if someone tags me -- so I did not see any posts from you about being a Te-aux.
> 
> What do you want? An apology? Fine. I'm sorry I reduced Te to being about money. I will take my exhausted brain over to my tumblr and try and come up with something better for that post.


No, it's not about an apology. It's about trying to have a discussion and gaining new understandings, but you had to go the "this function is annoying ladies and gentleman" route. Honestly, I just wanted to discuss.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Honestly, I just wanted to discuss.


Then I'm sorry for misinterpreting you and getting emotional on you. Not my finest moment.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Then I'm sorry for misinterpreting you and getting emotional on you. Not my finest moment.


I'm sorry I came across as a bitch, I'm normally not aware of it :/ My social side is a work in progress.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> I like both, because I got _very_ emotionally invested in many of the characters. But I love to imagine more of the world in my mind and see what other people in the fandom have come up with. I think the latter may interest me a bit more.


She hates Harry. But yeah the point is, despite her not being emotionally invested in characters she still digs the idea of wizarding world a lot. So times to time we come up with ideas of how school in my country would look/work.


----------



## fair phantom

I'm so glad my ESTJ sister is more fun and easygoing than everyone's ESTJ uncles (and yeah I am pretty sure I have at least one of those). That said, if she does get into an argument/discussion, she will destroy you if you don't bring your A game (but she'll be nice about it).


----------



## orbit

I don't know my uncles so I have no idea what their types are ^^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I like both, because I got _very_ emotionally invested in many of the characters. But I love to imagine more of the world in my mind and see what other people in the fandom have come up with. I think the latter may interest me a bit more.


My life is characters. I actually think that literary characters are a big part of my personal mythology (granted I am Si-dom, which I just informed Curi I'm feeling more ISFJ today). I just... love characters. And I certainly love the HP characters. The world is unsteady and again, it seems illogically plopped into our world, but the characters are gold. 

For the record, I love Harry. He was my favorite character for a while, before I started feeling cliche for loving the main character.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> I don't know my uncles so I have no idea what their types are ^^


ESTJ. All uncles are ESTJs.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Back at parents' I used to get into fights with mom when she'd lose the patience and try to clean my room. "NO! IT'S NOT A TRASH! AND EVEN IF IT WAS IT'S *MY* TRASH!! WHY DID YOU THREW IT OUT!??". I just need for my environment to be comfortable enough so I stop noticing it. Hence very comfy bed, chair and clothes are of importance. The rest is like 'meh'. Living alone I do try to clean trash time to time since if it amasses it'll take long time to clean it when I'll eventually have to. Also I am a maniac when it comes to cleaning my computer. I don't know anyone who does complete cleaning of their PC system once a week as I do. The only things I don't take apart often is a power block because that thing takes _so much_ finger gymnastics to put it back together. I didn't take it apart in like 3 months now. UUUGH. I should do it this month.


I'm actually in the process of cleaning out my room, ridding of all the Child and making it into a more adult and clear thinking space. I'm very excited about it, but it's something that I have to have total control over.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> ESTJ. All uncles are ESTJs.


For fun, my uncles...
- ESTJ (already mentioned), definite INTP, and... maybe an ISTP, although I'm not sure (he's uncle by marriage) 
- xSFJ, maybe ISFP (maybe?), and an XSFJ almost-uncle (probably) (along with the other uncle figures I lose track of)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> My life is characters. I actually think that literary characters are a big part of my personal mythology (granted I am Si-dom, which I just informed Curi I'm feeling more ISFJ today). I just... love characters. And I certainly love the HP characters. The world is unsteady and again, it seems illogically plopped into our world, but the characters are gold.
> 
> For the record, I love Harry. He was my favorite character for a while, before I started feeling cliche for loving the main character.


Whenever I write, I start with characters. I can get interested in books that don't have good characters, but it is unlikely that i will _love_ them.

Hermione and Luna are my favourites, but I also love Harry. Yeah he gets a bit angsty, but I relate to him in certain ways, so I will defend him with passion.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Do we all have that ESTJ uncle? I've got an ESTJ uncle _and_ an ESTJ neighbor like that. They ran my poor INTP uncle off Facebook.


Is your ESTJ uncle a doctor with a God complex? If so, maybe we ARE all related...

I had to be around this guy quite a lot now and again, because I'd fly my grandma down south to stay with him and his wife over the winters. He can be totally charming with strangers -- and then once you get to know him, that Te-dom comes out in full force and he starts challenging you, correcting you, forcing you to defend all your arguments, etc. It's exhausting. The weird thing about it is how much my aunt has changed, apparently. She was feisty and a trickster when she was young, a bit of a sassypants, and now she's quite ... reserved, and proper, and dull, and it's hard to get anything out of her. I think she just got used to not expressing her opinions, since she would have to defend them all. I know she's some kind of an ISXJ type. The fact that she adapted to him, and became all proper and doctor-y and blunt makes me think ... Fe? But, I don't know. It's hard to tell.

I know another guy, who I THINK might be an ESTJ. Now he's fun to be around. Very logical, and leadership is effortless for him, but he can loosen up and have a good time and just ... discuss Lord of the Rings. So, they are not all bad, not by any means.

My mom ... is an STJ. She is so much a 'doer' that she could be a Te-dom, but it's hard to tell with her. In some ways, her Ne seems strong and in some ways it isn't. She has no time nor patience for theories that are not clearly defined -- she doesn't like C.S. Lewis' theology or other Ni-heavy writers, because they are talking in high abstracts and it makes her feel "not smart" if she can't follow it. But, she is incredibly smart. Just not with abstract concepts. Other people think she's cold, but I don't. I know how her mind works. I know that she "shows" love instead of saying it. I know that she has feelings, and can be hurt, and cares about people, but isn't always efficient in showing that or talking about it. 

Then again, my ultra-blunt ESTJ grandmother spent her free time giving free foot massages to people in rest homes, and spent hours talking to them. She refused to charge one client more than another for her foot rubs (which were under-priced) because that would be unethical. There again, some of her kids felt unloved by her, because she was frank, and directing. Others got their feelings hurt through her bluntness. I never took it that way. I just laughed, because half the time what she said was quite funny -- just in a frank sort of way. She said it with a twinkle in her eye. She was a wonderful woman.

So yes, for every ESTJ with problems / tendencies to control people, there's a lovely one to interact with. It all depends on their level of compassion ... and how tough you can be, emotionally.


----------



## Greyhart

@laurie17 i hate u for giving me this pulse movie i now want to burn my computer


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> My mom ... is an STJ. She is so much a 'doer' that she could be a Te-dom, but it's hard to tell with her. In some ways, her Ne seems strong and in some ways it isn't. *She has no time nor patience for theories that are not clearly defined *-- she doesn't like C.S. Lewis' theology or other Ni-heavy writers, because they are talking in high abstracts and it makes her feel "not smart" if she can't follow it. But, she is incredibly smart. Just not with abstract concepts. Other people think she's cold, but I don't. I know how her mind works. I know that she "shows" love instead of saying it. I know that she has feelings, and can be hurt, and cares about people, but isn't always efficient in showing that or talking about it..


Dad is easy-going but the bolded part is killing our communication attempts with each other.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@angelcat the issues that you mention with your ESTJ uncle make lots of sense from a socionics standpoint, as he's basically hitting your weakest point and that hurts, and it's worse as he supervises you, so basically you are powerless against him.


----------



## 68097

Blue Flare said:


> @angelcat the issues that you mention with your ESTJ uncle make lots of sense from a socionics standpoint, as he's basically hitting your weakest point and that hurts, and it's worse as he supervises you, so basically you are powerless against him.


Yup.

Thing is, he can turn around and play Mr. Nice guy, and have me convinced I was being too hard on him / disliking him for no reason. And then he'll take some aggressive tack and pursue it until you submit. Like, he doesn't know the meaning of DROP IT. So tiring.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I'm actually in the process of cleaning out my room, ridding of all the Child and making it into a more adult and clear thinking space. I'm very excited about it, but it's something that I have to have total control over.


I left most of my stuff at parents. No way I'm throwing out my closet of plushies or encyclopedias, though.



alittlebear said:


> My life is characters. I actually think that literary characters are a big part of my personal mythology (granted I am Si-dom, which I just informed Curi I'm feeling more ISFJ today). I just... love characters. And I certainly love the HP characters. The world is unsteady and again, it seems illogically plopped into our world, but the characters are gold.
> 
> For the record, I love Harry. He was my favorite character for a while, before I started feeling cliche for loving the main character.


There's plenty of fandoms where I am for the sake of characters. Comics for example. Elementary. Just not the HP. Harry drives me up the wall with his single-mindedness and internalized angst.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat No, my uncle is certainly not a doctor and he could have a god complex, but I'm not quite sure. What you're describing with the wife is very familiar though, unfortunately. My aunt is the typical 50s wife. It's so disheartening. She's a lawyer. She's a successful woman. But you wouldn't know it. It's just... sad, really. Sadly. 

With the older ESTJs I know, it comes out when you discuss politics. If you say one thing unfounded by what they see as objective fact, they're on you. And don't dare play the devil's advocate... But I love them regardless, and love talking with them, since their minds are different from mine and I learn a lot (both logically and... culturally). 

I'm still not sure if my mom is ISTJ or not. Granted that I'm learning towards ISFJ, I have a hard time believing we are the same type... I mean, example, she's so rough with her students. She yells a lot. It doesn't matter if you have a good reason for being kate and you're a good kid, she'll still send you up to the front office (knowing they'll give you a hard time and you're eleven and sensitive) to get a late pass... and she has no sensitivities when something needs to be done, at home or at work, she'll yell and command and not understand the value of slowing down and talking kindly with someone, understanding their needs and working with them individually. She's a great teacher, don't get me wrong - she's gotten Teacher of the Year more times than I can relay, which is /very/ uncommon given her type of teaching - but she does things opposite I do, and we've gotten into disagreements because I can't bear how she deals with people. 

She also needs her books to teach. She got a Master's in Education. I pull out her top book and roll my eyes. I don't need that. It's all the same thing. Way too simple. Teaching is natural. I've been doing it since I was fifteen, at least. You jump in, you do it. You don't need a single book to do that. Maybe that's just different individual strengths, but... I don't know. It's something different about us. 

But she doesn't sound like your mother? I don't know, my mom wouldn't even think to read a philosophical text about religion... She'll glance through my Sunday School books, but to her religion is very personal and she doesn't like talking about it or expanding on it through knowledge. 

Oh! And she does this Fe thing. People watching. I bring it up because she does it in church. We don't talk to any of the people at our church hardly - partially because she's so shy, and we're both so self conscious of our lower status in the church social hierarchy - yet she knows their lives /entirely/. I don't do that - lol, I have a homily to listen to, things to learn, biblical understanding to expand - but gosh does she do it. She'll babble the entire ride home about the goings on of every family in the church (and we have a big church). That always seemed Si/Fe to me. 

But... Yeah. A little off from your discussion, but when you speak of your ISTJ mother it reminds me of how my supposed ISTJ mother is little like her.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Blue Flare,sorry for just barging in lol,but you mentioned socionics and I've been wondering,how does being a "supervisor" to your parent work?


----------



## Dragheart Luard

angelcat said:


> Yup.
> 
> Thing is, he can turn around and play Mr. Nice guy, and have me convinced I was being too hard on him / disliking him for no reason. And then he'll take some aggressive tack and pursue it until you submit. Like, he doesn't know the meaning of DROP IT. So tiring.


That sucks, as whatever you say won't be useful as he sees you as utterly incompetent from a Te standpoint. For similar reasons I prefer to not be near ENFJs if I detect them, as their Fe will try to steamroll me. With ESFJs is a mutual mess, but ENFJ makes me think that I can't do anything.



Living dead said:


> @_Blue Flare_,sorry for just barging in lol,but you mentioned socionics and I've been wondering,how does being a "supervisor" to your parent work?


This is a good question, as you can see your parent as incompetent, but you won't have too much control thanks to the usual family hierarchy. I can imagine that heated arguments would be usual and you wouldn't be able to take your parent seriously, as you know that they're weak, but they will refuse to let you control them. That's my guess.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat No, my uncle is certainly not a doctor and he could have a god complex, but I'm not quite sure. What you're describing with the wife is very familiar though, unfortunately. My aunt is the typical 50s wife. It's so disheartening. She's a lawyer. She's a successful woman. But you wouldn't know it. It's just... sad, really. Sadly.
> 
> With the older ESTJs I know, it comes out when you discuss politics. If you say one thing unfounded by what they see as objective fact, they're on you. And don't dare play the devil's advocate... But I love them regardless, and love talking with them, since their minds are different from mine and I learn a lot (both logically and... culturally).
> 
> I'm still not sure if my mom is ISTJ or not. Granted that I'm learning towards ISFJ, I have a hard time believing we are the same type... I mean, example, she's so rough with her students. She yells a lot. It doesn't matter if you have a good reason for being kate and you're a good kid, she'll still send you up to the front office (knowing they'll give you a hard time and you're eleven and sensitive) to get a late pass... and she has no sensitivities when something needs to be done, at home or at work, she'll yell and command and not understand the value of slowing down and talking kindly with someone, understanding their needs and working with them individually. She's a great teacher, don't get me wrong - she's gotten Teacher of the Year more times than I can relay, which is /very/ uncommon given her type of teaching - but she does things opposite I do, and we've gotten into disagreements because I can't bear how she deals with people.
> 
> She also needs her books to teach. She got a Master's in Education. I pull out her top book and roll my eyes. I don't need that. It's all the same thing. Way too simple. Teaching is natural. I've been doing it since I was fifteen, at least. You jump in, you do it. You don't need a single book to do that. Maybe that's just different individual strengths, but... I don't know. It's something different about us.
> 
> But she doesn't sound like your mother? I don't know, my mom wouldn't even think to read a philosophical text about religion... She'll glance through my Sunday School books, but to her religion is very personal and she doesn't like talking about it or expanding on it through knowledge.
> 
> Oh! And she does this Fe thing. People watching. I bring it up because she does it in church. We don't talk to any of the people at our church hardly - partially because she's so shy, and we're both so self conscious of our lower status in the church social hierarchy - yet she knows their lives /entirely/. I don't do that - lol, I have a homily to listen to, things to learn, biblical understanding to expand - but gosh does she do it. She'll babble the entire ride home about the goings on of every family in the church (and we have a big church). That always seemed Si/Fe to me.
> 
> But... Yeah. A little off from your discussion, but when you speak of your ISTJ mother it reminds me of how my supposed ISTJ mother is little like her.


I don't know that people watching and knowing about people that way is necessarily Fe. It sounds more like the so instinctual variant to me, which I think is _more common_ among Fe-users, but isn't exclusive to them. :/


----------



## orbit

(Off off topic)

Has anybody read Calvin and Hobbes? I've looked up their typing but Hobbes' seems inconclusive. Any opinions?


----------



## Darkbloom

Blue Flare said:


> That sucks, as whatever you say won't be useful as he sees you as utterly incompetent from a Te standpoint. For similar reasons I prefer to not be near ENFJs if I detect them, as their Fe will try to steamroll me. With ESFJs is a mutual mess, but ENFJ makes me think that I can't do anything.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good question, as you can see your parent as incompetent, but you won't have too much control thanks to the usual family hierarchy. I can imagine that heated arguments would be usual and you wouldn't be able to take your parent seriously, as you know that they're weak, but they will refuse to let you control them. That's my guess.


Makes sense,other than them refusing to let me control them XD
And I always in a way admired my dad but I did feel he didn't know some sort of truth,and kinda found him naive,and not very parent-like
He always apologized after trying to punish me in any way XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I don't know that people watching and knowing about people that way is necessarily Fe. It sounds more like the so instinctual variant to me, which I think is _more common_ among Fe-users, but isn't exclusive to them. :/


Hmm... I'm actually convinced she's SP-dom? We disagree about that too. We go through a neighborhood she (falsely) declares unsafe. She locks all the doors. I go, "Mom, please don't do that. It's kind of rude. Look. That's a man. You're acting like he's a predator, and that's rather unkind." (I don't say that exactly, but more or less I say this every time, through lecture or look.) She doesn't care. She's so distrustful of others. We must be kept safe, even if it means gravely offending another person. I can't fathom that either :/ Safety is important, but the chances of someone actually getting hurt are so slim. Live a little. Don't live in fear of what-if-this-thing-that-actually-has-a-very-small-chance-of-happening-happens. It's not going to happen, and if it does, that's probably one of maybe two times it will ever happen to you. Breathe. Enjoy life. Don't live in fear. Unfortunately my mother and I are on opposite ends of the teeter totter when it comes to life in this way.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> @TelepathicGoose to me you seem to have tert Si. There's feeling that your Ne is grounded better than mine.


I think I do as well, but...what do you mean by "grounded"?


----------



## 68097

@alittlebear: your mom sounds more STJ than SFJ. Collecting details about people isn't necessarily Fe. My mother can recite information about people too. Both of us do it. Might be more a Si thing. 

Also, sweetheart, why do you think you're a Fe-aux? Everything you say is Fe. You constantly rotate around how this looks, how people will react, etc. Other people. Focus on other people. Fe-dom.

Not wanting to lock your car doors in certain neighborhoods? That, to me, rules out inferior Ne. Not afraid of being hurt? The odds are slim? Nope, no catastrophic low-order Ne there. Ne inferior -- perpetual glass half empty. The world is a scary place.

That said, I personally resonate more with the socionics ESE (ESFJ) descriptions of FeSi than I do their descriptions of SiFe, particularly as relating to the effects of creating art -- in my case, literature. (Can't relate to most of the rest of ESE, though.) And yet, I feel like I have a lot of the hallmarks of freak-out inferior Ne. Give me any situation, I'll tell you how it will probably go wrong. =P


----------



## Max

Has anyone watched Shutter Island? An insane movie. Brilliantly insane. Took a while for me and my Dad to figure out, but wow.


----------



## Greyhart

TelepathicGoose said:


> I think I do as well, but...what do you mean by "grounded"?


Not floating 12 stores above while poor Si is dangling on the rope tied to Ne's leg and crying.


----------



## fair phantom

Sigh. When it comes to Socionics, I resonate more with IEI (INFp/"INFJ") descriptions than EII (INFj/"INFP").


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Greyhart said:


> Not floating 12 stores above while poor Si is dangling on the rope tied to Ne's leg and crying.


Well then...O_O


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> Sigh. When it comes to Socionics, I resonate more with IEI (INFp/"INFJ") descriptions than EII (INFj/"INFP").


I do as a bit well, but only the descriptions. When it comes to the actual cognitive functions, the EII fits much better for me.

The descriptions, however. They cause the IEI to sound like the creative writer and the EII sound like the magical therapist, when it is usually the other way around.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Has anyone watched Shutter Island? An insane movie. Brilliantly insane. Took a while for me and my Dad to figure out, but wow.


It has isolated mental hospitals that are also jail.
Refer to: x

_



Then again, there still exists a sense of body horror when I imagine myself incapable of exerting my will on the environment. I'd rather have control of my environment rather than have it control me. I get a bit angry when I think about dying before seeing things like this come to fruition.

Click to expand...

This too. Hense I hate all the mental hospital/trapped/jail settings. Guess who can't watch OITNB? Yup._


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Has anyone watched Shutter Island? An insane movie. Brilliantly insane. Took a while for me and my Dad to figure out, but wow.


You're gonna hate me, but ... I knew what was going on 6 minutes in. Took me another 5 to say anything, because I wasn't sure. Turns out my friend was "timing" me, to find out how long it would be before I guessed the twist ending. I didn't guess all the nuances -- where everyone fit into it -- but ... I knew the twist. I usually figure that out fairly early on. 

Sorry. I can't resist showing off. Or maybe... showcasing high Ne? I dunno anymore. LOL

ETA: Another excellent asylum movie -- this one with Edgar Allen Poe overtones -- is Stonehearst Asylum. I was going to link to a trailer for it, but it reveals too much of the plot. I LOVE it. So gorgeous, and gothic, and Victorian, and creepy. Nice twists too. Saw one coming, but the other one caught me off guard. It was one of those films where I was like, "Eh, I'll rent it... it'll probably suck and be Be-grade," and then I was like, "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE??"


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> You're gonna hate me, but ... I knew what was going on 6 minutes in. Took me another 5 to say anything, because I wasn't sure. Turns out my friend was "timing" me, to find out how long it would be before I guessed the twist ending. I didn't guess all the nuances -- where everyone fit into it -- but ... I knew the twist. I usually figure that out fairly early on.
> 
> Sorry. I can't resist showing off. Or maybe... showcasing high Ne? I dunno anymore. LOL


I was more interested in watching the movie, gathering pockets as it went on, remembering things and putting things together as I went along. Most of it was correct, though.




Greyhart said:


> It has isolated mental hospitals that are also jail.
> Refer to: x
> 
> _
> This too. Hense I hate all the mental hospital/trapped/jail settings. Guess who can't watch OITNB? Yup._


I can take it. Doesn't remind me of anything bad. Yet. It didn't trigger anything for me.


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> (Off off topic)
> 
> Has anybody read Calvin and Hobbes? I've looked up their typing but Hobbes' seems inconclusive. Any opinions?


I assume you mean the comics?)
Calvin seems ESFP, yeah? or...ESTP?
Hobbes: aww, Hobbes...ENFJ? INTP? I don't know. 

I love these comics so, so, much. It's a wonderful world, Hobbes -- let's go exploring! <3


----------



## fair phantom

TelepathicGoose said:


> I do as a bit well, but only the descriptions. When it comes to the actual cognitive functions, the EII fits much better for me.
> 
> The descriptions, however. They cause the IEI sound like the creative writer and the EII sound like the magical therapist, when it is usually the other way around.


I meant the way the functions are described in their particular placing, as in what @angelcat linked to, I'm not sure if that is what you meant or? This one is much more relatable than any other EII profile I've read, but I don't think I struggle much with abstract logic, and the IEI profile also resonates with me.


----------



## Dangerose

Oh, I people-watch all the time. _All the time._ I have lots of little 'ships' for people I vaguely know, I've invented elaborate backstories for them, I know what's actually going on in their lives to the stupefaction of my father (and it's really creepy but I know where everyone lives, what car they drive, all this...I don't mean to figure these things out but I do)...is it so? 
(I'm still unsure if I'm so/sx or sx/so...pretty sure I'm sp last though)


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I was more interested in watching the movie, gathering pockets as it went on, remembering things and putting things together as I went along. Most of it was correct, though.


I can't really do it that way. My brain takes in information subconsciously and presents the most likely outcome / who did it / twist ending to me. I can't figure out if it's because I'm a novelist or if I'm a novelist because my brain works that way. But, it can be quite annoying when you're reading Agatha Christie and you know who did it on page 35. No element of surprise. I value the things that truly catch me off guard, shock me, or go in unexpected directions greatly.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

fair phantom said:


> I meant the way the functions are described in their particular placing, as in what @angelcat linked to, I'm not sure if that is what you meant or? This one is much more relatable than any other EII profile I've read, but I don't think I struggle much with abstract logic, and the IEI profile also resonates with me.


Well, I believe that must be the difference between socionics and MBTI. I'm definitely not an MBTI INFJ, though.


----------



## fair phantom

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, I believe that must be the difference between socionics and MBTI. I'm definitely not an MBTI INFJ, though.


Aye, neither am I.


----------



## Dangerose

Oswin said:


> I assume you mean the comics?)
> Calvin seems ESFP, yeah? or...ESTP?
> Hobbes: aww, Hobbes...ENFJ? INTP? I don't know.
> 
> I love these comics so, so, much. It's a wonderful world, Hobbes -- let's go exploring! <3


edit: it's actually a magical world, Hobbes...sorry


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> I can't really do it that way. My brain takes in information subconsciously and presents the most likely outcome / who did it / twist ending to me. I can't figure out if it's because I'm a novelist or if I'm a novelist because my brain works that way. But, it can be quite annoying when you're reading Agatha Christie and you know who did it on page 35. No element of surprise. I value the things that truly catch me off guard, shock me, or go in unexpected directions greatly.


Oh, I see. I like to observe, remember and build up the series of events as it happens through the clues. Then I guess when I get enough observations/clues. Sometimes I guess things off the cuff and they tie in with the storyline. Other times, nope.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I can take it. Doesn't remind me of anything bad. Yet. It didn't trigger anything for me.


It doesn't remind me of anything I just hate the idea of this loss of personal freedom and control. *shudder* As I said before I don't watch anything that gives me negative emotions.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> For now I am settled on ISFJ at the moment, and just ready to move on and stop consuming so much of my time with ruminating the same things over and over again about my type.


HA! If you really are a Si user... it never stops. 

(Really, brain? What, we're over-thinking this interaction we had 16 years ago? Again?? WHY? BUT I CAN'T STOP UNTIL I FIGURE IT OUT.)

I won't pester you further, though.



> I still have a hard time knowing what is Si and Ne, especially since I don't even know for sure that I have them. But... I don't know if Ne is creation, figuring out underlying concepts and ideas, seeing the bigger picture.... I do that with some ease. I think that really could be attributed to my educational background (which I think would make sense, as Si is shaped by environment, yes?).


Yes. But it's objectively assessing the environment and pulling potential ideas from it. Seeing what it COULD be, instead of what it IS. Like Cinderella. Ne sees multiple perspectives, outcomes, and potentials at once. Ne is, as you found out, seeing Frodo as a Christ figure in one chapter, and a fallen sinner in the next. He is both, simultaneously. Strong Ne is comfortable with this, because how could it be any other way? To cast aside one interpretation for another would be ... wrong. Too limiting. Ne constantly wants to build a bigger world.

Ne is Game of Thrones. One family becomes 80 characters, and 8 different civilizations, and 16 subplots. 

Ne is me reading about Isabella of Spain, and connecting it in my mind to the Plantaganets, the Tudors, and the Borgias, as I build an incredible internal map of the 1400 and 1500's, becoming more and more excited as little things expand my worldview, and broaden my understanding of the period. 

Ne is embracing one concept, and watching it spiral out into a dozen concepts, and then even more concepts, and a bigger idea, an implosion of cosmic possibilities.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> It's just interesting, because I saw my sixth grade teacher last week, told her I was considering being a teacher, and she said, "Are you sure? You always had such a hard time speaking in class." That's not how I remember my sixth grade years - I was more outspoken than ever when I was 11 - but that's how she saw it as my teacher. (In any case, I am great at teaching now, I've grown out of my anxiety in that regards, but I was surprised that I came across as so shy back in the day.)
> 
> And yes, I don't see my Ne, especially in comparison to you and especially @Oswin. I think I had a lot of it growing up - a ton if imaginary friends, always taking book characters with me places to let them explore the environment, being entertained by my own imagination all the time - but as I grew it just seemed immature. Better to think about things that can be actually productive, like figuring out literature, honing in on my story, figuring out the world and seeing what message I want to deliver to it, doing things with my mind that can later do something else that's immediately productive.
> 
> But, yes. I'm really not too concerned with what xSFJ I am. I'm open to questions on the subject, since it don't mind them really, not much of a preference, but the ISFJ description fits me well and there are some things in my childhood that make me think I must be Si-dominant.


I'm still curious about why you believe you use Si-Ne. You've kind-of...dropped some hints, but not said anything specific)) But I don't need to know) It seems surprising, though.

I'm an overly fanciful and very bored person all in all, so I don't know if comparing yourself to me is such a good idea. I'm not sure I use as much Ne as you think I do, either...do you see me using it or is it just what I describe? Because maybe, part of the Ne is just my very...naive Si)) 

As a child I was a sad loner who nevertheless looked down on the other kids and their stupid pop references and ugly clothes. I lived in my head a lot and was always pretending, I was also very bossy and obsessed with improving people; i.e. I had a whole scheme to make my annoying and mean next-door neighbor a good person, and I literally pretended that my best friends were my children (I didn't tell them this, but I sneakily acted on it). I think I was really really chatty at some point? But I was always very quiet, I was the nice girl who called people 'sir' and stuff. I had an overly strong conscience and was constantly feeling guilty over stupid things, like I'd cross the grass and it would weigh on me until I finally confessed it to someone. I think I spent a lot of time reading and making up stories; I can't really remember what I was actually like as a child because what I mostly remember are the people I was pretending to be. 

Also, very dramatic and I threw so many temper tantrums, impossible to control, when I was grounded (which was always) I would literally just climb out the window and go back into the house, I never really didn't do things because I knew there was a punishment , it was literally just like, "Oh, this is really unfortunate, after I do this thing I'm going to do I'll be punished", I only cared if I thought it was wrong but even then I was likely to disobey myself. Compared to my brother, it's completely opposite...he'll do worse things than I ever did, but I always called attention to it while he does things sneakily, and he actually has a concept of consequences and operates under a strict "This is what I'll get out of this situation" mentality, which honestly creeps me out, but he was like that from age 5. 

Not sure if that's typical for an ISFJ child.


----------



## Max

As the legend of Lucho recalls:



> Growing up, Sir Luchadori was an intelligent, quiet child who was top of the class, had a few close friends, was very respectful, enjoyed people's company, but also enjoyed the depths of Lucho's mind.
> 
> As time progressed, Lucho became hyper, outgoing, rowdy and uninterested in school work. Lucho eventually calmed down after the age of eleven, due to starting Junior High School.
> 
> As Lucho got older, Lucho began to become disinterested in classwork, and more interested in social networking. Until Lucho hit a stump two years ago.
> 
> Recovering from that stump, Lucho is a lot more outgoing, intelligent, kind and expressive. Lucho has also found a refuge in the Family of PerC.


----------



## Barakiel

This is very, *VERY* off topic, but do you guys have any suggestions for introductions to classical literature? I'm looking to get into books like _The Iliad_ and _Paradise Lost_, so there's a generalization.

As for something that's on topic to, y'know, typing, apparently, in Socionics, I'm either INTj (LII), ENTp (ILE), INTp (ILI), or INFj (EII), in that order. So that's a thing. :laughing:

P.S. I took a quiz if that wasn't obvious. Yes, I know how unreliable they are, but better that than searching through descriptions of 16 separate types and hoping one of them randomly fits. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> This is very, *VERY* off topic, but do you guys have any suggestions for introductions to classical literature? I'm looking to get into books like _The Iliad_ and _Paradise Lost_, so there's a generalization.
> 
> As for something that's on topic to, y'know, typing, apparently, in Socionics, I'm either INTj (LII), ENTp (ILE), INTp (ILI), or INFj (EII), in that order. So that's a thing. :laughing:
> 
> P.S. I took a quiz if that wasn't obvious. Yes, I know how unreliable they are, but better that than searching through descriptions of 16 separate types and hoping one of them randomly fits. :dry:


Classical-classical, like Roman and Greek, or generally classical, like Milton and Shakespeare? I'm guessing both, so here are what I consider the basics:

Greek:
The Odyssey and the Iliad
Oedipus Rex, the Oresteian Trilogy

Roman:
The Aeneid
Ovid's Metamorphoses

I would look to Robert Graves for translations of these classic works as his are the most widely accepted translations today. He's also written some good books set in these time periods such as I, Claudius (not to be confused with @angelcat's lovely I, Claudia) and Homer's Daughter.

Medieval and renaissance writings:
The Divine Comedy
The Canterbury Tales
The Decameron
La Morte d'Arthur 
The Song of Roland

(even reading excerpts of these works might be a good way to go; some are long and interminable)

Shakespeare -- I would say Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, A Midsummer's Night's Dream, Richard III, and Macbeth or Othello would be a good starter course

Paradise Lost

Spencer's The Fairy Queen (optional)

The Pilgrim's Progress

The Vicar of Wakefield (optional)

Jane Austen -- Pride and Prejudice will probably cover you, though all her books are delightful

Charles Dickens -- I like Bleak House the best, but works like David Copperfield, Great Expectations, and Oliver Twist are pretty representative and well-known

Thackeray -- Vanity Fair

The Bronte Sisters -- Jane Eyre or Wuthering Heights, choose one (choose Jane Eyre)

George Eliot -- you'll probably wanna go for Middlemarch, though I prefer The Mill on the Floss

Proust -- Remembrance of Things Past (or excerpts)

Tolstoy -- Anna Karenina or War and Peace

Dostoevsky -- Crime and Punishment or the Brothers Karamozov

P.G. Wodehouse -- any of the Jeeves novels, there is not a funnier novelist

The Great Gatsby

Any Hemingway Novel (The Old Man and the Sea is both short and lovely)

As for poetry, you'll want to get some Pope, Donne, Wordsworth, Cowper, Tennyson, Yeats, Dylan Thomas, Keats, Emily Dickenson, Christina Rossetti, Robert Browning, and others. I recommend the Norton's Anthology of Poetry for a nice comprehensive view with the Best Hits.

Is this what you wanted?


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Classical-classical, like Roman and Greek, or generally classical, like Milton and Shakespeare? I'm guessing both, so here are what I consider the basics:
> 
> Greek:
> The Odyssey and the Iliad
> Oedipus Rex, the Oresteian Trilogy
> 
> Roman:
> The Aeneid
> Ovid's Metamorphoses
> 
> I would look to Robert Graves for translations of these classic works as his are the most widely accepted translations today. He's also written some good books set in these time periods such as I, Claudius (not to be confused with @angelcat's lovely I, Claudia) and Homer's Daughter.
> 
> Medieval and renaissance writings:
> The Divine Comedy
> The Canterbury Tales
> The Decameron
> La Morte d'Arthur
> The Song of Roland
> 
> (even reading excerpts of these works might be a good way to go; some are long and interminable)
> 
> Shakespeare -- I would say Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, A Midsummer's Night's Dream, Richard III, and Macbeth or Othello would be a good starter course
> 
> Paradise Lost
> 
> Spencer's The Fairy Queen (optional)
> 
> The Pilgrim's Progress
> 
> The Vicar of Wakefield (optional)
> 
> Jane Austen -- Pride and Prejudice will probably cover you, though all her books are delightful
> 
> Charles Dickens -- I like Bleak House the best, but works like David Copperfield, Great Expectations, and Oliver Twist are pretty representative and well-known
> 
> Thackeray -- Vanity Fair
> 
> The Bronte Sisters -- Jane Eyre or Wuthering Heights, choose one (choose Jane Eyre)
> 
> George Eliot -- you'll probably wanna go for Middlemarch, though I prefer The Mill on the Floss
> 
> Proust -- Remembrance of Things Past (or excerpts)
> 
> Tolstoy -- Anna Karenina or War and Peace
> 
> Dostoevsky -- Crime and Punishment or the Brothers Karamozov
> 
> P.G. Wodehouse -- any of the Jeeves novels, there is not a funnier novelist
> 
> The Great Gatsby
> 
> Any Hemingway Novel (The Old Man and the Sea is both short and lovely)
> 
> As for poetry, you'll want to get some Pope, Donne, Wordsworth, Cowper, Tennyson, Yeats, Dylan Thomas, Keats, Emily Dickenson, Christina Rossetti, Robert Browning, and others. I recommend the Norton's Anthology of Poetry for a nice comprehensive view with the Best Hits.
> 
> Is this what you wanted?


Jesus, that's a lot. Ever thought on slowing down? 

I'll try to check some of those out, though, thanks for the rather comprehensive list. :laughing: It's funny, I couldn't stand Shakespeare or poetry in class, yet now I'm seeking it out. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Jesus, that's a lot. Ever thought on slowing down?
> 
> I'll try to check some of those out, though, thanks for the rather comprehensive list. :laughing: It's funny, I couldn't stand Shakespeare or poetry in class, yet now I'm seeking it out. :wink:


Also, I forgot Hugo and Flaubert -- for the former, Les Miserables or Notre Dame de Paris (shorter), for the latter, Madame Bovary (more famous) or A Sentimental Education (better)

Sorry! For Shakespeare, I recommend watching it -- more fun than reading! I personally love Laurence Olivier's Hamlet and I think everyone should see the movie version of Much Ado About Nothing with Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson, it's very well done and natural, not overacted at all.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Also, I forgot Hugo and Flaubert -- for the former, Les Miserables or Notre Dame de Paris (shorter), for the latter, Madame Bovary (more famous) or A Sentimental Education (better)
> 
> Sorry! For Shakespeare, I recommend watching it -- more fun than reading! I personally love Laurence Olivier's Hamlet and I think everyone should see the movie version of Much Ado About Nothing with Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson, it's very well done and natural, not overacted at all.


Yay, more stuff for me to add to my backlog. :laughing: Although, I don't suppose you'd have some philosophical stuff too? :happy: seems like I'm relying on you for way too much, actually. :tongue:

I actually remember watching A Midsummer Night's Dream, it wasn't bad, surprisingly. :happy:


----------



## Greyhart

So this is why my soda and kettle thing went to Hell

 If the sodium gets hot enough, the hydrogen jets can ignite and burn.

Oops. The kettle is pretty clean now, though.


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> I interptert it as "having a goal". Money is one of possible examples.


That's how I saw it, too. Money as a means to an end. It's an external sign of success AND it allows you to acquire resources and buy experiences. Is it simplistic? Of course it is. But I saw a deeper meaning behind it, whether or not @angelcat actually meant it in that way. 



fair phantom said:


> Is it normal as an Fi-dom for me to feel pain and even anxiety (seems to be the wrong word but I can't seem to find the right one)when two people are having a conflict? to want to intervene and help people reach understanding? Because that was what I was feeling as I caught up on the last few pages (so glad that the misunderstandings were cleared up).


Oh yes. I hate it. It disturbs my inner peace. I don't do well in conflict and while logically I understand that not everyone feels the same, it still feels icky when other people are arguing because I know how bad it makes me feel when I'm the one involved. -_-



angelcat said:


> Yup.
> 
> Thing is, he can turn around and play Mr. Nice guy, and have me convinced I was being too hard on him / disliking him for no reason. And then he'll take some aggressive tack and pursue it until you submit. Like, he doesn't know the meaning of DROP IT. So tiring.


Oh god that sounds like my ESFJ mother. I wonder if it's an unhealthy Je thing. Or maybe an unhealthy extravert thing. I just... don't know what they're trying to achieve by it. It only pisses me off and makes me less receptive to their POV. 



fair phantom said:


> Sigh. When it comes to Socionics, I resonate more with IEI (INFp/"INFJ") descriptions than EII (INFj/"INFP").


That's apparently pretty normal. I can relate to some of the IEI-Ni descriptions but functions-wise I still seem to fit better with EII. But even within that, I relate to bits and pieces of both subtype descriptions, but not enough to use them to settle on one particular type. Basically I just hate the personality portraits. >_< 

I just tried to understand their idea of the functions and how they interacted with each other to figure out my Socionics type. I'm not 100% sure on it (could be Fi subtype) but it's the best I could come up with, and I don't like doing the questionnaires because I feel like I'm being manipulated into giving certain answers somehow. 



Greyhart said:


> Always curious what do "guests" get out of this thread. Is it like board editions of online melodrama show?


I used to flick through for function discussions and to see how people were justifying their current typings. So I've obviously missed quite a lot, between all the banter and gifs, but the more technical conversations gave me food for thought.

@alittlebear Dunno if this helps but my grandmother (probably ESTJ) says that my mother was incredibly strong-willed when she was younger, and a bit of a nightmare as a teenager. Definite ESFJ though. ESFJ's also one of types I'm considering for my sister and she LOVED her tantrums as a kid. Also, wouldn't your shyness be tied in with your anxiety?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> I'm still curious about why you believe you use Si-Ne. You've kind-of...dropped some hints, but not said anything specific)) But I don't need to know) It seems surprising, though.
> 
> I'm an overly fanciful and very bored person all in all, so I don't know if comparing yourself to me is such a good idea. I'm not sure I use as much Ne as you think I do, either...do you see me using it or is it just what I describe? Because maybe, part of the Ne is just my very...naive Si))
> 
> As a child I was a sad loner who nevertheless looked down on the other kids and their stupid pop references and ugly clothes. I lived in my head a lot and was always pretending, I was also very bossy and obsessed with improving people; i.e. I had a whole scheme to make my annoying and mean next-door neighbor a good person, and I literally pretended that my best friends were my children (I didn't tell them this, but I sneakily acted on it). I think I was really really chatty at some point? But I was always very quiet, I was the nice girl who called people 'sir' and stuff. I had an overly strong conscience and was constantly feeling guilty over stupid things, like I'd cross the grass and it would weigh on me until I finally confessed it to someone. I think I spent a lot of time reading and making up stories; I can't really remember what I was actually like as a child because what I mostly remember are the people I was pretending to be.
> 
> Also, very dramatic and I threw so many temper tantrums, impossible to control, when I was grounded (which was always) I would literally just climb out the window and go back into the house, I never really didn't do things because I knew there was a punishment , it was literally just like, "Oh, this is really unfortunate, after I do this thing I'm going to do I'll be punished", I only cared if I thought it was wrong but even then I was likely to disobey myself. Compared to my brother, it's completely opposite...he'll do worse things than I ever did, but I always called attention to it while he does things sneakily, and he actually has a concept of consequences and operates under a strict "This is what I'll get out of this situation" mentality, which honestly creeps me out, but he was like that from age 5.
> 
> Not sure if that's typical for an ISFJ child.



* *




This is what I was like as a child:


Mostly kept to myself, loved playing pretend games alone on the playground if no activities interested me, and was easily entertained. I became more talkative as and involved as I aged.

Religious. Prayed a lot. To a naive, obsessive degree. I had symptoms of scrupulosity (religious OCD). Many rituals to ward off death, Hell and Satan... my aunt told me Harry Potter gave one satanic powers so I refused to read anything Harry Potter, but I knew deep down this was nonsensical so I never told anyone why when they asked. Fortunately my scrupulosity was grown out of with age, and I eventually converted to agnosticism/deism... and then atheism. I was always very accepting of people with beliefs different from mine (which is why I left the church at 12... too close minded, imo). 

Spacey, scatterbrained, absent minded. Had to be constantly reminded to put on my coat, put things away, because I would almost forget where I was and become lost in my thoughts. I used to play with my socks and forget I was supposed to be going to school, almost making my mother late for work on multiple occasions. I will never forget being 8 years old, ready to pour myself some cereal, when somehow my parents found me cross legged in front of the counter, thinking (I believe it was about some computer game we played in school... stupid right)? I snapped into reality when they stammered, ".. what are you doing?" In school I would space out, think about the meaning of life, why we were all here, why God created us, and my teacher would ask if I were ok. I'd tell her and she'd just give me this look like "uh... that's nice, wtf?"

Curious, asked questions, loved to learn (despite having to take a lower level math class for a few years; really knocked the self esteem down a few pegs). I remember wondering what it would mean if a guy loved a guy and a girl loved a girl. 6-7 year old me asked my mother with glee... she gave me an odd look (I realize now why), and I thought that was just one of my "crazy ideas" again. 

Voracious reader, though I hated writing assignments because they were too structured. That was until 6th grade when I discovered freestyle poetry and we had the ability to write our own stories without any prompts. Freedom!

I have a freckle on the right side of my belly button. I named it Alf after the tv show for some reason, and in school made it talk by.. closing my bellybutton w/ my fingers. People told me to pull down my shirt because it was inappropriate. I couldn't understand why it was because it wasn't a "sexual" (or however I rationalized such an action in grade 1) showing, but I was smart enough to never do it again.

I was really honest... a tattletale (my peers loved that). I would tell on myself if I did something wrong, and took doing the right thing seriously and obsessively. I was fearful of getting in trouble, and wanted to be a "good girl". My mother was surprised with the things I confessed. In fact, she made it a game to get me to confess secrets, lmao. How nice mom. Learned to keep my mouth shut and to justify lies, but I'm still a shit liar. 

I enjoyed camping, riding my bike, yoga and swimming, but detested team sports and was egregious in my performance. Dogeball was fun though because I had to deduce strategies in order to avoid the ball.

Got along better with my teachers or those younger than me than people my age, and loved adults very much. I tried my best to please my teachers.

Compliant, rarely broke rules (actually diligent about misbehaving), wanted to help people. Left my mother affirmation notes and cleaned her house for her. Enjoyed books on manners. Was considered very polite by adults... and a bitch by my peers.

Slight competitive streak. Wanted to break my own records. Wanted to beat everyone else, just to see if I could. In other ways... I was very relaxed. Not a sore loser, but pushed myself to be the best, if that makes sense. 

...Nosey. I had a spy kit. I read your diary. I looked in all your shit. 

I loved with baking, make-up, nail polish, fashion shows and shopping, but still put bread in a bag in my closet to watch it mold, and wanted to preform chemistry experiments. I never received a chemistry set. Or ballet lessons. 

Took myself way too seriously. Sensitive. Would dramatically and demonstrably tell people how wrong their accusations against me were, or rattled against them for being callous or heartless, despite also being callous or heartless innocently. As I grew older I realized this altered people's perceptions of me negatively, so I learned how to things in a subdued manner.

Risk adverse. Cautious. Meticulous. Nervous disposition. Si stereotypes FTW. I witnessed someone with alphabetized books organized upon their bookshelf, and I needed to emulate such delicate arrangements. I was upset if someone misplaced my elegant structure. I was messy despite this. 

Passionate environmentalist until people complained and I went mainstream lol. I'm getting back into it at least.

I wanted to become popular especially after mockery and adapted the persona and failed miserably... then adapted the emo persona... and failed miserably. Emo clique hated me too lulz.




TL;DR I was a strange fucking child.

I see Si Fe Ti tbh.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> People would use sarcasm and I'd mistake it for seriousness (not in real life, but online... I still can't be sure sometimes which is which).


This is common in most people, as sarcasm is a non-verbal cue, meaning it doesn't translate to text.



angelcat said:


> Yet, I got a sense watching old movies that there was innuendo in them; I zeroed in on that, and became incredibly uncomfortable. I sensed what was going on under the surface without being told.


Si



angelcat said:


> I was pretty good with other people


Fe




angelcat said:


> Life has shown me that things are not always black and white ... my Fe has opened me up to alternative perspectives ...


Sounds Ne



angelcat said:


> my Ne isn't comfortable asserting absolute truths in some morally gray areas... in some ways, I regret losing the strength of certain convictions. Still. It's a journey.


Tert/inferior Ti

I don't mean to offend. I thought this may help you clarify, though if @Greyhart wants to scrutinize me, I'm all hers.

I mainly pry because my mother is similar to you in the belief of social ineptitude, and I wish she realized how charismatic and socially adjusted she is rather than overthinking how to connect w/ ppl or exploring unknown possibilities negatively and throwing herself through a loop.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> Is it normal as an Fi-dom for me to feel pain and even anxiety (seems to be the wrong word but I can't seem to find the right one)when two people are having a conflict? to want to intervene and help people reach understanding? Because that was what I was feeling as I caught up on the last few pages (so glad that the misunderstandings were cleared up).


Sounds like inferior Fe to me. Wanting to connect with others and organize them socially but somewhat adverse to doing so... highly uncomfortable when such situations arise.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Yay, more stuff for me to add to my backlog. :laughing: Although, I don't suppose you'd have some philosophical stuff too? :happy: seems like I'm relying on you for way too much, actually. :tongue:
> 
> I actually remember watching A Midsummer Night's Dream, it wasn't bad, surprisingly. :happy:


There's a great book if you want a summary of philosophy through the centuries, but I can't remember what it's called and it's too late to go creeping through my house looking for it. But I'm sure there's any number of books that will give a nice overview (the one I'm thinking of was very good and the phrasing was very clear)

I'm not very into philosophy but I would suggest looking at:

Plato's Republic
at least take a look at Plato's cave
St Augustine -- The City of God
St Thomas More -- Utopia (Is it philosophy?)
St Thomas Aquinas -- Summa Theologiquae
Hobbes -- Leviathan
Spinoza -- Ethics
I haven't read any of the following, but they're important: Locke, Rousseau, Voltaire, Kant, Kierkegaard, David Hume

As for Chinese philosophy, the Analects of Confucius and Lao Tzu (Taoism) is probably worth your while.

Sorry( You'll be better off going to the INTPs for this))


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> There's a great book if you want a summary of philosophy through the centuries, but I can't remember what it's called and it's too late to go creeping through my house looking for it. But I'm sure there's any number of books that will give a nice overview (the one I'm thinking of was very good and the phrasing was very clear)
> 
> I'm not very into philosophy but I would suggest looking at:
> 
> Plato's Republic
> at least take a look at Plato's cave
> St Augustine -- The City of God
> St Thomas More -- Utopia (Is it philosophy?)
> St Thomas Aquinas -- Summa Theologiquae
> Hobbes -- Leviathan
> Spinoza -- Ethics
> I haven't read any of the following, but they're important: Locke, Rousseau, Voltaire, Kant, Kierkegaard, David Hume
> 
> As for Chinese philosophy, the Analects of Confucius and Lao Tzu (Taoism) is probably worth your while.
> 
> Sorry( You'll be better off going to the INTPs for this))


Aw, so I don't get a devil's advocate buddy to deconstruct things with? Shame. :laughing:

Nah, you've really been a great help, truly. :happy: I've read a bit of Sun Tzu, should really get back to that one. Anyway, brilliant, now I have a backlog that's as messy as my room. Oh well, I'll probably never escape from the tar of book-addiction, but oh well, guess I should make it stylish.

*does a swan dive into said tar* :kitteh:


----------



## Dangerose

@Barakiel I remembered! Praise my Si, it was a long shot, but this name came floating happily into my mind...
Bertrand Russell. History of Western Philosophy. Here's the Wikipedia link: A History of Western Philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hey! Einstein liked it!
I found it incredibly helpful as an overview and beginner's course. Apparently it was criticized by academics, but not being an academic myself it was perfect to jump off with.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> @Barakiel I remembered! Praise my Si, it was a long shot, but this name came floating happily into my mind...
> Bertrand Russell. History of Western Philosophy. Here's the Wikipedia link: A History of Western Philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Hey! Einstein liked it!
> I found it incredibly helpful as an overview and beginner's course.


Now I'm really envious of that Si of yours, seems quite useful. :dry: Should I be weary of being turned off of psychology like you were? :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Sounds like inferior Fe to me. Wanting to connect with others and organize them socially but somewhat adverse to doing so... highly uncomfortable when such situations arise.


Not that adverse tbh. I've played peacemaker/arbitrator/diplomat/harmonizer in my family and friend groups when I felt it was needed. In this case the whole thing took place while I was out and the people involved were mature enough to resolve it themselves.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> @_laurie17_ i hate u for giving me this pulse movie i now want to burn my computer


Then I've done my job :happy: 

(Here's a cute cat gif to replace the terror)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> Not that adverse tbh. I've played peacemaker/arbitrator/diplomat/harmonizer in my family and friend groups when I felt it was needed. In this case the whole thing took place while I was out and the people involved were mature enough to resolve it themselves.


Idk sounds like Ti with low order Fe imo.


----------



## Psychopomp

angelcat said:


> Submissions from (supposed) INTPs about what it's like to be an INTP, on my typing tumblr. I'd dig up a link to their submissions but I'm a bit afraid of you seeing my tumblr in depth, since you might call into question a lot of my information and that would make me sad. Hehe. It's all... a learn-as-you-go experience for me.


HAHA, I visited your Tumblr once and about 30 seconds in I made the conscious and very deliberate decision to leave and never return. I find you and your perspective terribly insightful and useful, and that was reflected there for sure, but the sheer .... comprehensiveness... of it sent my head spinning. Red alert! Systems critical! Abort! Abort! Too much to analyze, too much to double-check, too much to question. 

I am highly supportive of learn-as-you-go and of being hilariously wrong, since I do the former and often am the latter. As long as we call it what it is, I am sure it can only be good.


----------



## Darkbloom

How does dom/aux Fe act in conflict though?
(I DEFINITELY don't do harmonizer thing looool,but how is it supposed to go for me/my type?)


----------



## owlet

arkigos said:


> I also fill this role. INFP would not do this. What you said about your feelings about the conflict in this thread is very much low-order Fe.
> 
> 
> Master your feelings? So Ti/Fe. All of this is so Ti/Fe. Especially that last line. Fi/Te would not say this. This is specifically Fe. Fi would say that their emotions are already deeper than even they can fathom... and they abjure objective influence on them.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is true... given that Fe has any conscious influence at all. I know a few Ti-doms who would at least claim this wasn't true, though I think that it is.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, inferior Fe is only troublesome when I am forced to use it directly. I am much more comfortable and useful and wise and insightful when I am Thinking. I resolve conflicts, bring parties together, create dialogues, offer praise and rebuke in a well-considered and thoughtful way. When situations like this arise, my NFP cohorts naturally, and happily, recede and I take the lead. I am more well-spoken, more amiable, more of a true diplomat. Their strength is in objectivity of thought, which usually manifests (at least to me) as stating really objective facts as if those facts are the Wall of China. Then, they internalize and exactingly abstract the value principles involved. I'd expect an INFP, observing a conflict, to first think that it was stupid. As Fi users, they are, more than anyone, able to see what actually has value and what actually does not. This is perhaps their greatest strength. So, whereas I would be pulled around by the emotions and hurt feelings and grand statements in a conflict, the Fi would be unimpressed. It is all fluff and grandstanding to them and it is absolutely unable to move them. In this, the INFP would focus intently and objectively on the FACTS... and the all the fluff would pass over them like wind. Then, having collected the facts in the most objective of ways (we, as Ti types, would analyze the facts and rework them in our minds to get somewhere, which is, to me, THINKING, but INFP would not do this, they would just stop dead right on the facts) and then try to find the emotional or value nuance in the situation, based on those facts. Thus, an INFP would come across much like a Judge. Like an actual Judge Judy Judge. The only difference is that the INFP would be in a more inferior place (more likely to say 'just leave me out of it' or grow quickly impatient) and would obviously show a greater strength of nuanced value. They would be seen as very straightforward and very focused on objective fairness with an intense reliance and focus on FACTS. Judge Judy but quieter and more concerned with the value aspects of the situation.
> 
> I asked my INFP friend about this, and his answer revealed a greater influence from Ne than my answer here indicated. I'll quote him:
> 
> Me: How do you approach conflicts among your loved ones / family / friends? How do you react and what is your role?
> *INFP: I guess I make a judgment about who is being unreasonable and then I try to bring perspective to the situation. That is a tough question. I imagine my response varies wildly depending on the situation.*
> Me: How about hot conflict between family.
> *INFP: Maybe not WHO is being unreasonable, but I judge WHAT is unreasonable. Usually conflicts are a result of multiple parties lacking perspective to differing degrees. I would respond with a series of one-on-one conversations designed to make people see things from different points of view.*
> 
> So, yes...
> 
> INFP focuses on objective facts and finds value nuance in the situation, though that happens very internally and impressionistically. Facts speak for themselves and cannot be thought around or altered.
> INTP focused on logic in the situation and tries to incorporate objective feelings and values into their logical process.
> 
> INTP treats people's expressed feelings much like INFP treats facts. They are the obstacle that cannot be altered or gotten around. They must be dealt with as they are. INTP solves this by thoughtful contemplation, INFP does this by seeking internally for interpersonal nuances.
> 
> Both, being Ne, will heavily focus on bringing new perspectives to bear.
> 
> Your examples @_fair phantom_ feel strongly oriented toward the INTP approach.
> 
> 
> 
> Fi doms bond... bond with whom they will when they will and it happens very implicitly but also very strongly. If this is not occurring, the INFP will appear benevolent but impossibly disconnected. There is nothing of gregariousness there, no objective attachment.
> 
> 
> 
> What submissions are we talking about?


A couple of small niggling areas here.

Why wouldn't an INFP (or another Fi user for that matter) act as peacemaker between people they care about? I've acted as peacemaker, especially between my mum and sister when we were younger. I would wait to see if they would resolve it, but if it seemed to be getting out of hand then I'd step in and explain exactly what had been misunderstood or misinterpreted and that neither meant the other any harm.
The whole thing with Fi is dealing with emotional discomfort in their inner world and if two people they care about are arguing that's going to cause a lot of inner discomfort. Fe would do the same thing, but for different reasons - because it was causing discomfort in the external world.



> INFP focuses on objective facts and finds value nuance in the situation, though that happens very internally and impressionistically. Facts speak for themselves and cannot be thought around or altered.
> INTP focused on logic in the situation and tries to incorporate objective feelings and values into their logical process.
> 
> INTP treats people's expressed feelings much like INFP treats facts. They are the obstacle that cannot be altered or gotten around. They must be dealt with as they are. INTP solves this by thoughtful contemplation, INFP does this by seeking internally for interpersonal nuances.


I agree with the initial point of dealing with objective facts and nuanced values, but I disagree with the idea that these facts are seen as immoveable or unalterable. Ne especially is about expanding on things so, while the INFP may prefer objective facts to 'facts' which seem not to hold water, they would build upon these facts and not just take them as solid formations which can't be changed or moulded.



> Fi doms bond... bond with whom they will when they will and it happens very implicitly but also very strongly. If this is not occurring, the INFP will appear benevolent but impossibly disconnected. There is nothing of gregariousness there, no objective attachment.


This is sort of what I was getting at (but failing to clarify, I think). INFPs can bond with people and do so very strongly, but this kind of bonding isn't definitive of Fi, it's just one of the many different parts, therefore it's not necessarily indicative and can be unhelpful to focus on. I do think that Fi users are generally seen to be cooler than Fe users, though.


----------



## Psychopomp

laurie17 said:


> Why wouldn't an INFP (or another Fi user for that matter) act as peacemaker between people they care about? I've acted as peacemaker, especially between my mum and sister when we were younger. I would wait to see if they would resolve it, but if it seemed to be getting out of hand then I'd step in and explain exactly what had been misunderstood or misinterpreted and that neither meant the other any harm.
> The whole thing with Fi is dealing with emotional discomfort in their inner world and if two people they care about are arguing that's going to cause a lot of inner discomfort. Fe would do the same thing, but for different reasons - because it was causing discomfort in the external world.
> 
> 
> I agree with the initial point of dealing with objective facts and nuanced values, but I disagree with the idea that these facts are seen as immoveable or unalterable. Ne especially is about expanding on things so, while the INFP may prefer objective facts to 'facts' which seem not to hold water, they would build upon these facts and not just take them as solid formations which can't be changed or moulded.


Excellent counterpoints and I agree with them. 

Let me say that I think that I'd expect INTP to be more extravertedly, compulsively, proactively peacekeepery. I certainly would agree that INFPs can and are peacemakers and would undoubtedly fill that role, but not so ostentatiously and neurotically as INTP would. I should have said that I don't think that INFPs would do this in the way I perceived it being done in the example. I think the remainder of my post worked toward contextualizing that, but I think I ultimately failed to express that the human element is of course a big focus for INFP and thus harmony in their social groups will be something that presses on them and that they might seek to intervene in... though not always, and certainly in their particular way.

I also agree that Ne would greatly assist in dislodging the deer-in-the-headlights objectivity of Te. I think it is essential to first strongly emphasize this aspect of INFP, because I feel it is key and often glazed over. However, once it is strongly emphasized and understood to exist... it must also be understood that Ne will have a strong influence on this, and relegate that Judge Judy Te objectivity to a focus on inducting (meta) perspective into the conflict. 

But, yes, I super agree and think that your points are absolutely essential corrections.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Submissions from (supposed) INTPs about what it's like to be an INTP, on my typing tumblr. I'd dig up a link to their submissions but I'm a bit afraid of you seeing my tumblr in depth, since you might call into question a lot of my information and that would make me sad. Hehe. It's all... a learn-as-you-go experience for me.


I must say, while I have come to trust some of your repeat submitters, I am hesitant to trust any of the personal personality type experience submissions. I can see how they're helpful to some, and I'm sure there's nuggets of truth buried in there, but knowing that many of them were self-typed made me feel uncomfortable. (Especially the INFJ submissions - some seem right, but others are far too mystical and self-important.)


----------



## 68097

arkigos said:


> HAHA, I visited your Tumblr once and about 30 seconds in I made the conscious and very deliberate decision to leave and never return. I find you and your perspective terribly insightful and useful, and that was reflected there for sure, but the sheer .... comprehensiveness... of it sent my head spinning. Red alert! Systems critical! Abort! Abort! Too much to analyze, too much to double-check, too much to question.
> 
> I am highly supportive of learn-as-you-go and of being hilariously wrong, since I do the former and often am the latter. As long as we call it what it is, I am sure it can only be good.


HAH!! I guess my high Si is a little too much for high Ne to handle sometimes. 

My method is -- act like you know what you're doing and talking about. If it turns out later you were wrong, correct it, while still acting like you know what you are talking about, thus not losing face because you're drawing attention to the fact that you got it wrong, rather than having someone else draw attention to it. Face up to your mistakes, learn from them, no shame.



Living dead said:


> How does dom/aux Fe act in conflict though?
> (I DEFINITELY don't do harmonizer thing looool,but how is it supposed to go for me/my type?)


We run and hide. Mostly running. And hiding. Sometimes blind rage is involved. The earth blurs and turns red. Stomach aches are activated. We lie awake at night dreading the next emotional blow. Oh, it's fun. You should try it.



alittlebear said:


> I must say, while I have come to trust some of your repeat submitters, I am hesitant to trust any of the personal personality type experience submissions. I can see how they're helpful to some, and I'm sure there's nuggets of truth buried in there, but knowing that many of them were self-typed made me feel uncomfortable. (Especially the INFJ submissions - some seem right, but others are far too mystical and self-important.)


Oh, but INFJs are the rarest type and to be worshiped! So, their submissions must have a certain SPARKLE to them, no?

Honestly, there was only ONE submission sent in where I thought, "There's a REAL INFP." It was pure satire and sarcasm and she was playing with words constantly throughout, a fantastical layered poetic neo-Victorian gamut of sheer verbal gorgeousness that I have seen many, many times in INFP writers. It rambled all over the place in pure Ne fashion, while being at once somewhat profound and hilariously cavalier. It was gorgeous. It reminded me, profoundly, at the time of the book of Victorian vampire stories I was reading. That is, dating from the Victorian period itself. There were a handful of INFP writers in there who were so lost in the sheer beauty of words that their stories had no point, really, but were a pure delight to read.

I sometimes get jealous of the NFP writing style. Then I look at the massive tomes they produce in which none of their plot lines are truly coherent or connected, and in which they have about 30 main characters, and feel slightly glad that my stories are on a smaller scope. The sheer thought of juggling so many things at once is overwhelming to me.


----------



## ElliCat

angelcat said:


> I sometimes get jealous of the NFP writing style. Then I look at the massive tomes they produce in which none of their plot lines are truly coherent or connected, and in which they have about 30 main characters, and feel slightly glad that my stories are on a smaller scope. The sheer thought of juggling so many things at once is overwhelming to me.


That's.... exactly why I stopped writing stories. I knew there was so much to explore and so many ways in which the story could go, that I could never actually finish any of them. The sheer amount of work involved to explore and then cull all the superfluous shit is just... overwhelming to me.

Seriously. Don't be envious.

@laurie17 I've been meaning to say this for like 11 replies in 3 different threads now, but you decided on INFP? Welcome to the team!


----------



## 68097

ElliCat said:


> That's.... exactly why I stopped writing stories. I knew there was so much to explore and so many ways in which the story could go, that I could never actually finish any of them. The sheer amount of work involved to explore and then cull all the superfluous shit is just... overwhelming to me.
> 
> Seriously. Don't be envious.


But your ideas are SO GOOD. It takes me ages to think up stuff that just ... happen to float into your mind! The nice thing, I guess, about being an SJ is that I'm driven to see my book ideas turned into something tangible, so I work hard to finish things -- but ... I have to work at it. Meanwhile, my ENFP friend just casts ideas in her wake and her sister and I eye each other and think BEST SELLING BOOK SERIES ... and she has no interest in actually writing it.

You know, I ought to just employ an NFP to give me ideas, or take my ideas and expand on them, and then I could write the books. That way, their ideas would go to good use and I'd have an easier time coming up with original plot lines.

Though... I still can't write like an NFP. That's pure poetry in motion, much of the time. Sheer romanticism. Exquisite. But my brain goes, "Eh, that sounds like romantic crap, coming from me, and everyone who knows me knows I hate sap," so I don't do it.


----------



## Tad Cooper




----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> That's.... exactly why I stopped writing stories. I knew there was so much to explore and so many ways in which the story could go, that I could never actually finish any of them. The sheer amount of work involved to explore and then cull all the superfluous shit is just... overwhelming to me.
> 
> Seriously. Don't be envious.
> 
> @_laurie17_ I've been meaning to say this for like 11 replies in 3 different threads now, but you decided on INFP? Welcome to the team!


Thank you! Finally the pieces came together :happy: ...After a lot of reading and questioning and spending far too much time on it, of course.

On the topic of writing (because I love it), it's not too hard to train yourself into 'writing mode' where you pick one or two characters, one angle and run with it - I think I got around the need for too much stuff by just making the plot very layered, which is fun and frustrating to deal with later. I just try to write a lot and, if I find myself getting lost, I just run back through it in my head instead of what's on paper and work out the knots. It takes time, though.

Practice doesn't make perfect, but it makes you a lot better.


----------



## ElliCat

angelcat said:


> You know, I ought to just employ an NFP to give me ideas, or take my ideas and expand on them, and then I could write the books. That way, their ideas would go to good use and I'd have an easier time coming up with original plot lines.


Funny story, I've tossed around that idea with my boyfriend, because he keeps commenting on how much I write on these forums or in emails or even just in chats, and is all, "you should put all that energy towards writing a story and make some money from it." But I don't think I have any ideas that are good enough. If I'm going to add to an already cluttered market, I want it to be something worthwhile. Something original _and_ enjoyable. I wish I could be happy just jumping on the badly-written teen fantasy romance bandwagon and exploiting the hell out of it but, alas, I'm my own worst enemy. 

I told him if he gave me the ideas I'd put them into words. I'm sure he has plenty of them, but neither of us have the follow-through to actually do something beyond talking. Currently it's on hold because he hasn't gone and picked up the materials to make a physical story/ideas board yet. It could be months before that happens.

We'll get there. One day.



> Though... I still can't write like an NFP. That's pure poetry in motion, much of the time. Sheer romanticism. Exquisite. But my brain goes, "Eh, that sounds like romantic crap, coming from me, and everyone who knows me knows I hate sap," so I don't do it.


I like the way you write here, though!

I think I sound horrible and pretentious and long-winded to the point of being BORING. I wish I could write like a strong Te user. Straight to the point, BAM. 

Grass is always greener?


----------



## 68097

ElliCat said:


> I don't think I have any ideas that are good enough. If I'm going to add to an already cluttered market, I want it to be something worthwhile. Something original _and_ enjoyable. I wish I could be happy just jumping on the badly-written teen fantasy romance bandwagon and exploiting the hell out of it but, alas, I'm my own worst enemy.


I feel the exact same way. Then too, the market is so saturated -- with good literature and bad. I look at all of it, and think, "UGH, there's no way I can even make a dent in it, or be noticed." I want original ideas. I can't seem to find them. I flirt with them a bit, and am quite good at taking reality and ... altering it, shifting it, idealizing it, making magic out of it, but I still look at writers like Pratchett and feel like he's done it so much more cleverly than I ever can. I have a very good sense of humor in real life, and am quite funny on a daily basis, but I can't seem to write humor that well. I'd love to come up with something like the new "Mummy" movie -- where it's just ridiculously funny and clever, but ... instead I toy with the notion of writing alternate history. Yet, it's a niche market, there isn't much of it, and ... "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell" has already been there, and exploded into the genre with a mix of fantasy, reality, history, fantastical characters, mythological worlds... I feel like I would be a pale imitation. 

That's where I am at the moment -- in flux, trying to find a decent story I can BELIEVE in. Waiting for inspiration to strike. I can't do anything half-heartedly.



> I think I sound horrible and pretentious and long-winded to the point of being BORING. I wish I could write like a strong Te user. Straight to the point, BAM.
> 
> Grass is always greener?


Indeed.

Funny story of my own -- one of my first books DID get called "pretentious" by a reader. I had an enormous vocabulary from reading classics when I wrote it, and just ... wrote it in the Victorian style. So it was "stiff and pretentious, with the idea that the author thinks she's smarter than she actually is." Since then, I've gone for simplicity. Dumbing down, a bit. Sad.


----------



## Immolate

ElliCat said:


> I think I sound horrible and pretentious and long-winded to the point of being BORING. I wish I could write like a strong Te user. Straight to the point, BAM.


Don't wish such a thing. Te can be so dry :laughing:


----------



## 68097

Solution: have the NFPs and SFJs write books, and the TJs can trim the excess Ne rabbit trails.

Except... you'd probably want to kill us after awhile. Because damn, can storytelling Ne go on rabbit trails.

*cough*GameofThrones*cough*LordoftheRings*cough*

*cough*JonathanStrangeandMr.Norrell*cough*Dickens*cough*Winter'sTale*cough*


----------



## Immolate

That's quite the solution. I still need to finish Game of Thrones, and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell has been on my reading list for... quite some time


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> That's quite the solution. I still need to finish Game of Thrones, and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell has been on my reading list for... quite some time


I gave the latter a valiant effort when it first came out, but gave up after 50 pages. I intend to give it another valiant effort, if only because I'm intrigued through the miniseries to find out more about the faerie realm's king. (Typical. Lots of interesting characters and I find the freakazoid interesting.)


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I gave the latter a valiant effort when it first came out, but gave up after 50 pages. I intend to give it another valiant effort, if only because I'm intrigued through the miniseries to find out more about the faerie realm's king. (Typical. Lots of interesting characters and I find the freakazoid interesting.)


Sometimes it's too much and I feel like pulling out a sheet of paper and writing down who's related to who, who did what, all the nicknames or alternate names given to one character, what this land or river or whatever is called and if it's next to a specific mountain, etc. If there's a family tree or map, wonderful, but I like finishing a book without big gaps in between, so...


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> I gave the latter a valiant effort when it first came out, but gave up after 50 pages. I intend to give it another valiant effort, if only because I'm intrigued through the miniseries to find out more about the faerie realm's king. (Typical. Lots of interesting characters and I find the freakazoid interesting.)


The book is really great, but it can be hard to get past the first part (because it's basically there to show how boring Mr Norrell is). I had to sum up the first five chapters for my sister and put her in at the point Jonathan Strange entered so she could get into it.

The Gentleman with Thistledown Hair is one of my favourite characters from the book. He's very interesting in his slightly opaque motivations.




shinynotshiny said:


> Sometimes it's too much and I feel like pulling out a sheet of paper and writing down who's related to who, who did what, all the nicknames or alternate names given to one character, what this land or river or whatever is called and if it's next to a specific mountain, etc. If there's a family tree or map, wonderful, but I like finishing a book without big gaps in between, so...


Somehow, I find that as long as I enjoy a book or a series, I can remember most of the needed information (sometimes in so much detail, it surprises me). Maybe it's being very visually minded? Or is it function-related? (Or just a good memory...?)


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> Somehow, I find that as long as I enjoy a book or a series, I can remember most of the needed information (sometimes in so much detail, it surprises me). Maybe it's being very visually minded? Or is it function-related? (Or just a good memory...?)


I would say sometimes it's all about interest. I'll be reading a passage, my mind will wander, a certain character will begin to speak and I'll realize, wait a minute, do I even recognize this name???


----------



## Dangerose

laurie17 said:


> I don't actually think Fi is about connected with people on an emotional level - or at least, not necessarily. Fi can be very insular, I think, in that it uses its internal criteria for what 'connecting' means so, for example, an Fi user might think connecting with someone emotionally is based purely on how they're feeling about it - not if there are any external signs of emotional connection and/or bonding.


I really think this is true. I'm always shocked at how my INFP friend will literally disappear on me for months and then just show up at my house as though no time has gone by...and if I express any confusion or displeasure she'll respond with more confusion like, "But we've been getting along so well" and I'm thinking, "But we haven't been getting along at all"


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Sometimes it's too much and I feel like pulling out a sheet of paper and writing down who's related to who, who did what, all the nicknames or alternate names given to one character, what this land or river or whatever is called and if it's next to a specific mountain, etc. If there's a family tree or map, wonderful, but I like finishing a book without big gaps in between, so...


Do it.

I swear, I got to the end of "Little Dorrit" and the big revel and went, "Wait, WHAT?" I still have to think that one through, whenever I watch the miniseries, because it's confusing. Just as much so in the book, in some ways. Dickens was wordy. Dozens of characters, all interconnected. I'm quite jealous of him really, because he was a genius at creating characters, but all the same ... you really do need a list of who is who when reading him.



laurie17 said:


> The book is really great, but it can be hard to get past the first part (because it's basically there to show how boring Mr Norrell is). I had to sum up the first five chapters for my sister and put her in at the point Jonathan Strange entered so she could get into it.
> 
> The Gentleman with Thistledown Hair is one of my favourite characters from the book. He's very interesting in his slightly opaque motivations.


I can't remember how far I got into it, before I gave up. I know it was past the point where he made all the statues come to life, but I don't think I got as far as Jonathan Strange discovering his magic. 

GWTH is an interesting character to me. Shady. Sinister. Moody. I like him, as far as potential villains go. 



> Somehow, I find that as long as I enjoy a book or a series, I can remember most of the needed information (sometimes in so much detail, it surprises me). Maybe it's being very visually minded? Or is it function-related? (Or just a good memory...?)


Me too, but not if my mind wanders. It gets worse if I'm doing two things at once -- like completing a task and watching something at the same time. I can't do it. I only remember half of what I'm watching, and can't concentrate on it when it does catch my eye (wait, what happened? who is this? HUH?).


----------



## fair phantom

arkigos said:


> Also, Wuthering Heights is 1000x better than Jane Eyre. Wuthering Heights is a masterpiece. There, I said it.


!!! Yay another _Wuthering Heights _fan. I think they are both masterpieces, but I prefer Emily Brontë's novel. I completely understand why some people don't like it, but for me it is fascinating, mesmerizing, consuming. It is like a wild animal that digs it's claws into your heart and it's jaws into your mind—or the untamable landscape itself, being overtaken by wild storms that rage and disperse and rage again. There is something it can reach on the deepest levels of the psyche that few novels can.

Moving on...



> Master your feelings? So Ti/Fe. All of this is so Ti/Fe. Especially that last line. Fi/Te would not say this. This is specifically Fe. Fi would say that their emotions are already deeper than even they can fathom... and they abjure objective influence on them.


Perhaps "master" is the wrong word. I don't mean it in the sense of suppressing them or beating them down. But channeling them. I would also say my emotions are deeper than I can fathom. I'm not sure what this has to do with not losing one's temper and going off or acting wounded.

Do they really abjure all objective influence? Do they not take in information through their extroverted functions that they then most sort out to make sure their values are correct. It seems like all other introverted functions are in some way connected to the outside world (if healthy). I don't understand why introverted feeling would be different.




> For me, inferior Fe is only troublesome when I am forced to use it directly. I am much more comfortable and useful and wise and insightful when I am Thinking. I resolve conflicts, bring parties together, create dialogues, offer praise and rebuke in a well-considered and thoughtful way. When situations like this arise, my NFP cohorts naturally, and happily, recede and I take the lead. I am more well-spoken, more amiable, more of a true diplomat. Their strength is in objectivity of thought, which usually manifests (at least to me) as stating really objective facts as if those facts are the Wall of China. Then, they internalize and exactingly abstract the value principles involved. I'd expect an INFP, observing a conflict, to first think that it was stupid. As Fi users, they are, more than anyone, able to see what actually has value and what actually does not. This is perhaps their greatest strength. So, whereas I would be pulled around by the emotions and hurt feelings and grand statements in a conflict, the Fi would be unimpressed. It is all fluff and grandstanding to them and it is absolutely unable to move them. In this, the INFP would focus intently and objectively on the FACTS... and the all the fluff would pass over them like wind. Then, having collected the facts in the most objective of ways (we, as Ti types, would analyze the facts and rework them in our minds to get somewhere, which is, to me, THINKING, but INFP would not do this, they would just stop dead right on the facts) and then try to find the emotional or value nuance in the situation, based on those facts. Thus, an INFP would come across much like a Judge. Like an actual Judge Judy Judge. The only difference is that the INFP would be in a more inferior place (more likely to say 'just leave me out of it' or grow quickly impatient) and would obviously show a greater strength of nuanced value. They would be seen as very straightforward and very focused on objective fairness with an intense reliance and focus on FACTS. Judge Judy but quieter and more concerned with the value aspects of the situation.
> 
> I asked my INFP friend about this, and his answer revealed a greater influence from Ne than my answer here indicated. I'll quote him:
> 
> Me: How do you approach conflicts among your loved ones / family / friends? How do you react and what is your role?
> *INFP: I guess I make a judgment about who is being unreasonable and then I try to bring perspective to the situation. That is a tough question. I imagine my response varies wildly depending on the situation.*
> Me: How about hot conflict between family.
> *INFP: Maybe not WHO is being unreasonable, but I judge WHAT is unreasonable. Usually conflicts are a result of multiple parties lacking perspective to differing degrees. I would respond with a series of one-on-one conversations designed to make people see things from different points of view.*
> 
> So, yes...
> 
> INFP focuses on objective facts and finds value nuance in the situation, though that happens very internally and impressionistically. Facts speak for themselves and cannot be thought around or altered.
> INTP focused on logic in the situation and tries to incorporate objective feelings and values into their logical process.
> 
> INTP treats people's expressed feelings much like INFP treats facts. They are the obstacle that cannot be altered or gotten around. They must be dealt with as they are. INTP solves this by thoughtful contemplation, INFP does this by seeking internally for interpersonal nuances.
> 
> Both, being Ne, will heavily focus on bringing new perspectives to bear.


First of all, thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response.

Hmmm...I don't know how I gave the impression to the contrary, but I relate much more to what the INFP said than what you wrote about yourself. I am much more confident in my ability to discern nuances and find what is valuable than I am in my ability to make and pick apart logical arguments. I worked hard to develop what ability I have in the latter; the former came naturally. I think I am more wise and useful when I am feeling. I help resolve matters by empathizing/sympathizing, figuring out why each party is saying what they are saying and interpreting things why they are interpreting them. I value _understanding_ more than I need harmony. If an argument is trivial or I think one is clearly in the wrong (as many on here seem to have been), it won't bother me at all. I'll probably watch in something like amusement. I only want to get involved if I sympathize/empathize with one or both of the parties, and can see that the conflict is the result of subjective factors. I also prefer to approach each party one on one. I'm debating giving examples, but I don't really want to expose all my wounds and air all of my family's dirty laundry. It feels like that would be a betrayal.

Is it not possible that my Fe seems immature because it is one of my shadow functions? To be honest, I feel like my personal history is being overlooked.
* *




I think I have mentioned before that I lived with one parent, and that parent was an emotional wreck—a damaged ESFJ who would turn abusive (never hitting me..okay except once..but in other ways) if I wasn't careful, and sometimes even if I was (because if other people weren't attentive to her emotions, it usually got taken out on me). I could paint a picture for you of what it was like to live in that situation every day, by myself, with no one to act as a buffer, with the only "respite" being every other weekend when I went to my father's, but there was the evil stepmother, who would have had me rooming in a cupboard under the stairs if their had been one, but I shy away from going into more detail than I just have. It feels like walking around without skin.






> Fi doms bond... bond with whom they will when they will and it happens very implicitly but also very strongly. If this is not occurring, the INFP will appear benevolent but impossibly disconnected. There is nothing of gregariousness there, no objective attachment.


That said, I don't think this is how I am either. I don't know. Except for the strong attachment part. I get very attached to certain people/characters. I don't always show it, but I try to. I'm thinking more and more that perhaps I am actually an Ne-dom, because now neither INFP or INTP seem right, though I relate to just about everything @ElliCat has written about being an INFP. :/

And now my 7-fix is itching to talk about something more fun and less prickly to my Si (whatever position it is in).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Mm... Writing. I feel weird talking about it at all since I made such a big deal about how much writing means to me earlier. I've been working on the same story for... going on four years now. My dad says there are too many plot lines - _everyone_ says there's too many plotlines and characters, that that's never been done before, that I need to trim down - _but they don't understand. _ One, that there are _lists_ of books with a variety of characters, and that I need every single thing stuffed into my story. It's crucial. 

I can't write that story, though. Not right now. The whole thing is a little triggering for me, unfortunately, and I want it to be gorgeous and know that right now my writing would not come out as I dream for it to. 

But I'm making plans. I decided on one story idea I am going to pursue this summer. One month for getting back in the swing of writing, making plot and character plans, and researching the material, and one and a half months to write it. Goodness knows it won't happen... but I said that about my Girl Scout project last year, which most certainly _did_ happen. I think it's very possible, if only I get on it.


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> I don't mean that Fe users immediately go for doing something purely because of being praised for it, just that it plays more of a role in decision-making than it would for an Fi user (I know that I'm fairly unaffected by praise (if I get a good grade, for example, I just go 'Oh good' and move on), but I do like people enjoying my work - it's a slightly different thing, because I don't want them to tell me something is good, I want to just be able to tell they enjoyed it - my Fe-using sister makes sure she tells me she liked what I did, whereas I often forget to say if I liked something she's done, which is kind of bad really, but it's just because I know I liked it and assume it's evident).
> I think disapproval is hurtful to most people, especially if it's from someone close to you. It would greatly affect an Fi user if they had thought the person understood them well, then they disapprove of something that fits in with the Fi user's core self - it can be disappointing.
> 
> I can see a lot of myself in the analysing thing you said. I often challenge ideas if they don't seem to add up and will stick very firmly to what I think is most correct. I also ask a lot of questions (I actually think this is Ne-Si, trying to clarify by finding the smaller details which can then be processes properly through the judging function - Si prefers to take in details and Ne wants to build upon those, so generally Ne-Si needs a lot more information to come to a judgement than Ni-Se, which is happier to make leaps <- this actually confused me a lot and I'm not exactly sure how to explain it properly, because it does sound like Ti, but Ti is more concerned with things being correct if they fit into the Ti user's 'bookshelf' of logic - if the new book doesn't fit, it's difficult for the Ti user to accept it, or they have to move things around a lot to accommodate it and allow it to be correct. My ESFJ friend is a good example of using low-order Ti in the way he will stick very firmly to what he believes to be right, even after me or my sister, or another friend, provides him with evidence contrary to this To me, this is illogical, because it's best to remain open to new information which can be moulded and reconstructed into something - in other words, it's good to take bits and pieces from 'fact' and opinion and meld them into something new).
> 
> I think it can be difficult to tell the difference between Te and Ti, but it's like Fe and Fi - one is internal and subjective/irrational while the other is external and objective/rational. Low-order Te is more likely to be influenced by external information concerning accuracy, whereas low-order Fe is more likely to be influenced by external information concerning what is right.


This makes a lot of sense to me. And yes, praise-seeking is not high on my list of priorities. I am sometimes pleased with good grades, but I am happier if there is a comment about how a teacher enjoyed my work. I also like when someone tells me that they thought it was an original approach, or that I had unique insights. I am thrilled if I can get someone to look at something in a different way. That sort of praise I think I might seek out: praise that speaks particularly to what is important to me.


----------



## Dangerose

(Maybe I need to reread Wuthering Heights. I wasn't feeling it. Seemed...random. But Jane Eyre is on one of the highest pedestals in my metaphorical library. It justs...it feels like tree branches against the dark sky. It makes me shiver wonderfully).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> (Maybe I need to reread Wuthering Heights. I wasn't feeling it. Seemed...random. But Jane Eyre is on one of the highest pedestals in my metaphorical library. It justs...it feels like tree branches against the dark sky. It makes me shiver wonderfully).


Yes, I relate to this... but I remember the writing style of _Wuthering Heights_ blew me away. I didn't finish it, but... I haven't finished _Jane Eyre_ either.


----------



## Dangerose

I don't think I go off on random rabbit-trails writing. My main problem is that I don't write broadly enough. I'm obsessed with making _every_ sentence meaningful, somehow speaking to the underlying theme in the story...so that I really struggle to flesh things out so they are fun to read, or get up to a normal novel word count. And plot. I just...for some reason, I'm always forgetting to include a plot. :/ Right now I'm specifically trying to fight this in the story I'm writing...from the perspective of a Se-dom...trying to have scenes that are just cool for the sake of the scene, with only a little bit of them having to do with the underlying theme of the story. It's killing me. In a good way. It's still the stupid Arthurian deal, and it's just like...I'm including scenes, characters, places, that have no connection to Arthurian legend, which is what I want because I want it to be realistic, and expansive, and about Kay, not Arthur, just the story of a random 5th century guy who happens to be the king's brother, but it's also just driving me crazy. It's good for me, but it's a skill I'm having to develop.


----------



## fair phantom

@Oswin @alittlebear Part of the trouble with _Wuthering Heights_ is that people try to portray it as a love story, when it isn't that at all. These are damaged, isolated people. I think that looking at images of the moors/heathland before reading can help create the write mindset.

I'm going to shamelessly take this as an opportunity to share one of my favourite poems, since it is by Emily Brontë


* *






> *Honour's Martyr*
> 
> The moon is full this winter night;
> The stars are clear though few;
> And every window glistens bright
> With leaves of frozen dew.
> 
> The sweet moon through your lattice gleams,
> And lights your room like day;
> And there you pass, in happy dreams,
> The peaceful hours away!
> 
> While I, with effort hardly quelling
> The anguish in my breast,
> Wander about the silent dwelling,
> And cannot think of rest.
> 
> The old clock in the gloomy hall
> Ticks on, from hour to hour;
> And every time its measured call
> Seems lingering slow and slower:
> 
> And, oh, how slow that keen-eyed star
> Has tracked the chilly grey!
> What, watching yet! how very far
> The morning lies away!
> 
> Without your chamber door I stand;
> Love, are you slumbering still?
> My cold heart, underneath my hand,
> Has almost ceased to thrill.
> 
> Bleak, bleak the east wind sobs and sighs,
> And drowns the turret bell,
> Whose sad note, undistinguished, dies
> Unheard, like my farewell!
> 
> To-morrow, Scorn will blight my name,
> And Hate will trample me,
> Will load me with a coward's shame—
> A traitor's perjury.
> 
> False friends will launch their covert sneers;
> True friends will wish me dead;
> And I shall cause the bitterest tears
> That you have ever shed.
> 
> The dark deeds of my outlawed race
> Will then like virtues shine;
> And men will pardon their disgrace,
> Beside the guilt of mine.
> 
> For, who forgives the accursed crime
> Of dastard treachery?
> Rebellion, in its chosen time,
> May Freedom's champion be;
> 
> Revenge may stain a righteous sword,
> It may be just to slay;
> But, traitor, traitor,—from that word
> All true breasts shrink away!
> 
> Oh, I would give my heart to death,
> To keep my honour fair;
> Yet, I'll not give my inward faith
> My honour's name to spare!
> 
> Not even to keep your priceless love,
> Dare I, Beloved, deceive;
> This treason should the future prove,
> Then, only then, believe!
> 
> I know the path I ought to go;
> I follow fearlessly,
> Inquiring not what deeper woe
> Stern duty stores for me.
> 
> So foes pursue, and cold allies
> Mistrust me, every one:
> Let me be false in others' eyes,
> If faithful in my own.





That last stanza is basically everything to me.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Oswin</a></i></span> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=167082" target="_blank">alittlebear</a></i></span> Part of the trouble with _Wuthering Heights_ is that people try to portray it as a love story, when it isn't that at all. These are damaged, isolated people. I think that looking at images of the moors/heathland before reading can help create the write mindset.
> 
> I'm going to shamelessly take this as an opportunity to share one of my favourite poems, since it is by Emily Brontë
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That last stanza is basically everything to me.


Ooh, I have never heard this poem before! I think I'm going to print it off; it's very...stirring and powerful, very evocative imagery.

(I just...I _wanted_ it to be a love story ( I was expecting Heathcliff to be the typical Byronic hero, and I remember liking the atmosphere but not much else besides. Then again, I think I was 13. I really, really, should try again).





 This song's cool even though the lady's voice and the video disturbs me.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> I don't mean to offend. I thought this may help you clarify, though if @Greyhart wants to scrutinize me, I'm all hers.
> 
> I mainly pry because my mother is similar to you in the belief of social ineptitude, and I wish she realized how charismatic and socially adjusted she is rather than overthinking how to connect w/ ppl or exploring unknown possibilities negatively and throwing herself through a loop.


I am a mere scholar. (◡‿◡✿) Si and Fi are those functions that seem to vary extremely and half a year I've spent learning them doesn't qualify me for absolute certainty. 



fair phantom said:


> Not that adverse tbh. I've played peacemaker/arbitrator/diplomat/harmonizer in my family and friend groups when I felt it was needed. In this case the whole thing took place while I was out and the people involved were mature enough to resolve it themselves.


I did that too yeah, as a kid and now, since I am emotionally cool (or at least cooler) than the rest of my family and can talk them out of actively throwing poop at each other.
@Living dead your nana seems like SFJ to me? I'd even think ESFJ



laurie17 said:


> One thing I noticed with low-order Fe users is that they generally respond much more strongly to praise than Fi users. Also, they tend to be more influenced by the comments of others (previous example was my ExTP friend, who told me to stop coming up with ideas for her story because it would ruin it, whereas I was just having fun going off on my own train of thought and never really considered that the story could be corrupted by my input).
> I think that's an example of fairly underdeveloped Fe, though, so not all ExTPs or IxTPs would relate to that.
> 
> Why do you feel you relate more To Ti, by the way?


My creativity attempts used to be crushed really easily or alternatively I was into some thing because my parents praised me for being competent in it.



tine said:


>


That is adorable. What kind of battery it has? I don't see any power cables attached.

I did not see @fair phantom as TP at any point. :| I don't know where you guys are getting Ti dominance.


----------



## orbit

I am obviously ISFJ, but simultaneously am Ti and Ni dominant because I'm a special butterfly and I create reality. 

Sorry if that offended anyone. Psh 

Can we talk about people who are not stereotypically their type. 

Like Robert Downy(?) Jr.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> My creativity attempts used to be crushed really easily or alternatively I was into some thing because my parents praised me for being competent in it.
> 
> I did not see @_fair phantom_ as TP at any point. :| I don't know where you guys are getting Ti dominance.


Ah, that's interesting. My Fe-using sister was easily dissuaded from pursuing certain career paths by negative responses from family, whereas I just said 'I'm doing this' and that was that.

I don't see @fair phantom as a Ti dominant either. I really see Fi, so probably Fi dominant, and more likely than not INFP...


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> yes, i relate to this... But i remember the writing style of _wuthering heights_ blew me away. I didn't finish it, but... I haven't finished _jane eyre_ either.


jane eyre is great how are you not finished with it

it is a literal page turner

somehow she turns up at the right place at the right time when the right person dies

Why does personality cafe not allow caps


----------



## Telepathis Goosus

Curiphant said:


> jane eyre is great how are you not finished with it
> 
> it is a literal page turner
> 
> somehow she turns up at the right place at the right time when the right person dies
> 
> Why does personality cafe not allow caps


*If you want caps make sure at least one letter in the message _doesn't _have caps, and it should work. Weird ass glitch.

Also,

JANE EYRE IS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL BOOK OH MY GOD I LOVE IT TO DEATH PLS BEST STORY EVEAFRFARFERQE


----------



## Greyhart

It's been a whole day and nobody asked me about my avatar. Either everyone of you know what's up or just assumed it's some nerdy chick. 











Oswin said:


> Ooh, I have never heard this poem before! I think I'm going to print it off; it's very...stirring and powerful, very evocative imagery.
> 
> (I just...I _wanted_ it to be a love story ( I was expecting Heathcliff to be the typical Byronic hero, and I remember liking the atmosphere but not much else besides. Then again, I think I was 13. I really, really, should try again).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This song's cool even though the lady's voice and the video disturbs me.


English has failed me completely here. She might as well just sing random syllables.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> That is adorable. What kind of battery it has? I don't see any power cables attached.
> 
> I did not see @_fair phantom_ as TP at any point. :| I don't know where you guys are getting Ti dominance.


I will try and find the article, but its the electric cheetah from korea! 
I dont see TP either, but thought I'd chip in with my experiences seeing as I most likely am one.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I am obviously ISFJ, but simultaneously am Ti and Ni dominant because I'm a special butterfly and I create reality.
> 
> Sorry if that offended anyone. Psh
> 
> Can we talk about people who are not stereotypically their type.
> 
> Like Robert Downy(?) Jr.


I am actually not that sure he is ENTP :\ I get reservation out of him that I don't expect out of Ne-Fe.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> It's been a whole day and nobody asked me about my avatar. Either everyone of you know what's up or just assumed it's some nerdy chick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> English has failed me completely here. She might as well just sing random syllables.


Yeah...me too, had to look up the words))
What is your avatar?


----------



## Immolate

@_Greyhart_

The adorable robot.

@_fair phantom_

I see INFP.


P.S. I've read both Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre... I liked them?


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Greyhart said:


> It's been a whole day and nobody asked me about my avatar. Either everyone of you know what's up or just assumed it's some nerdy chick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> English has failed me completely here. She might as well just sing random syllables.


I think you look quite sexy Ms. Oliver  (Why do you have that as your avatar...)


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> @_Greyhart_
> 
> The adorable robot.
> 
> @_fair phantom_
> 
> I see INFP.
> 
> 
> P.S. I've read both Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre... I liked them!


C:


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> C:


Sneaky! 


???


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Sneaky!
> 
> 
> ???


Did you catch it? C:

I smirk too much


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Did you catch it? C:
> 
> I smirk too much


!


----------



## fair phantom

Okay so I'm an INFP, but if any prospective employers ask: I'm an INTP. :th_wink:


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> Okay so I'm an INFP, but if any prospective employers ask: I'm an INTP. :th_wink:



You liar. You have no morals

Ewe
@shinynotshiny you gotcha


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> You liar. You have no morals
> 
> Ewe
> @shinynotshiny you gotcha


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


>


Breathe your nutrition in through the air like real life Barbie


----------



## Greyhart

Avalnoah said:


> I think you look quite sexy Ms. Oliver  (Why do you have that as your avatar...)











Why not? I'd love to grow up into John Oliver.



Oswin said:


> Yeah...me too, had to look up the words))
> What is your avatar?


I'm glad you asked.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Breathe your nutrition in through the air like real life Barbie


(pssst probably a bad thing to say to someone who had anorexia nervosa)

(ETA: I'm not upset or anything, just a head's up).


----------



## Max

Today was an eventful day. I swung outta bed, went to work with my Mama (but she was having car problems), got myself some dinner in KFC. This goth (who looked like Hector) walked in, and he ordered an espresso, and I wondered why it was so cheap. Then I looked at the small cup he got, and laughed into myself and went "oh, that's why!". I left, ate some of it in the car and the car wouldn't start. I prayed to God, and seconds later, my Mama's friend phoned and she told him what was going on, and him and his son jumpstarted the car for us. We got home fine, I read some, had some coffee, done more of the screenplay. Then I went to our anti-bullying talk with my Youth Group, said a few things, got felt up by my friend. Had some laughs, went home and ended up writing the rest of the screenplay, edited some things on PerC and here I am. At midnight, hungry, looking food and have no idea whatsoever what's going on xD


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> (pssst probably a bad thing to say to someone who had anorexia nervosa)


I'm sorry! I'll refrain from making such comments in the future. I'm sorry if it caused you any discomfort and sorry ><


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Today was an eventful day. I swung outta bed, went to work with my Mama (but she was having car problems), got myself some dinner in KFC. This goth (who looked like Hector) walked in, and he ordered an espresso, and I wondered why it was so cheap. Then I looked at the small cup he got, and laughed into myself and went "oh, that's why!". I left, ate some of it in the car and the car wouldn't start. I prayed to God, and seconds later, my Mama's friend phoned and she told him what was going on, and him and his son jumpstarted the car for us. We got home fine, I read some, had some coffee, done more of the screenplay. Then I went to our anti-bullying talk with my Youth Group, said a few things, got felt up by my friend. Had some laughs, went home and ended up writing the rest of the screenplay, edited some things on PerC and here I am. At midnight, hungry, looking food and have no idea whatsoever what's going on xD


KFC is death!


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> I'm sorry! I'll refrain from making such comments in the future. I'm sorry if it caused you any discomfort and sorry ><


no worries! I'm fine


----------



## Dangerose

(I'm really upset that it's already June. It was literally just May. And not so long ago it was _last_ June. I...I honestly thought it was sometime in the middle of May. Huge shock when I suddenly glanced at a calendar. Time goes about 2000x faster than it really needs to.)


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> (I'm really upset that it's already June. It was literally just May. And not so long ago it was _last_ June. I...I honestly thought it was sometime in the middle of May. Huge shock when I suddenly glanced at a calendar. Time goes about 2000x faster than it really needs to.)


I had this exact reaction when I woke up and noticed the date. A year ago this month was also a terrible time, and here I am


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> KFC is death!


Not when it's a burrito meal ;D
Yes, it was tasty, but nothing like the Mexican food I am accustomed to. That is much more fresh, authentic and is much tastier, but for KFC's attempt at TexMex/Mexican food, it was actually a decent spin on it. 



Oswin said:


> (I'm really upset that it's already June. It was literally just May. And not so long ago it was _last_ June. I...I honestly thought it was sometime in the middle of May. Huge shock when I suddenly glanced at a calendar. Time goes about 2000x faster than it really needs to.)


Yes. Story of my life. Last I said to myself:

"It's the first of June, and what have I done? What have I to show for it? Sweet feh all. As usual."


----------



## fair phantom

As upsetting as it being june is, I won't mind if the next three months fly by because summer is evil.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> I had this exact reaction when I woke up and noticed the date. A year ago this month was also a terrible time, and here I am


And you made it through! Sometimes it's good to look back and just notice how well you've managed to survive)
@LuchoIsLurking yep. I think my goal for this month is going to be doing something different on each day that will make the day somehow stand out. I think I'm going to go...drive around aimlessly looking for something to do (which, darn, is what I do every day, but this day I'll get out of the damn car and do something) )


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> As upsetting as it being june is, I won't mind if the next three months fly by because summer is evil.


Too. Damn. Hot. And bad at sports. I do like swimming and camping though- greatest facets of the summer sensation.

Fall and winter forever though.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> As upsetting as it being june is, I won't mind if the next three months fly by because summer is evil.


Nah, summer's the best) Sun) Flowers) Gnats)


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> And you made it through! Sometimes it's good to look back and just notice how well you've managed to survive)


This is true. Thank you for reminding me


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Too. Damn. Hot. And bad at sports. I do like swimming and camping though- greatest facets of the summer sensation.
> 
> Fall and winter forever though.


What do you consider hot??? (Genuinely curious.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> jane eyre is great how are you not finished with it
> 
> it is a literal page turner
> 
> somehow she turns up at the right place at the right time when the right person dies
> 
> Why does personality cafe not allow caps


I don't know? It's so singular. It always feels like it's all about Jane and Rochester. I like stories that don't feel so isolated and... well... SX


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> What do you consider hot??? (Genuinely curious.)


Always curious what others consider hot as well.


----------



## Max

Oswin said:


> @LuchoIsLurking yep. I think my goal for this month is going to be doing something different on each day that will make the day somehow stand out. I think I'm going to go...drive around aimlessly looking for something to do (which, darn, is what I do every day, but this day I'll get out of the damn car and do something) )


My goal this month is to fix up my libido, and satisfy my constant cravings for *coughs*. You know? ;D 

Nah, but realistically, I'm with you. I am trying to make each day as interesting as I can. On days I have nothing to do, I am gonna make something to do. I got a pile of books that need reading, a pile of things to organize, some clubs to go to and weights than need used ;D


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Nah, summer's the best) Sun) Flowers) Gnats)


I _hate_ summer. I like this summer because I need a break, but Fall and especially Winter makes me tremendously happy. (Fall because I have anticipation of Winter, Winter because it is the best season... Although it makes me sad because then I know we're just going downhill to Summer. Ugh.)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> What do you consider hot??? (Genuinely curious.)


90 is when I start hating summer.

100 and above is when I'm an insomniac no matter how many times I flip my pillow over to the other side. When I was a child I used to sneak cups of water and pour them all down my neck, and sleep soaked.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> 90 is when I start hating summer.
> 
> 100 and above is when I'm an insomniac no matter how many times I flip my pillow over to the other side. When I was a child I used to sneak cups of water and pour them all down my neck, and sleep soaked.


I looked up the average monthly temperatures over here and it's basically 76, 78, 80, 83, blah blah 91, lowest is 60 lol

Not that bad, I suppose.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> 90 is when I start hating summer.
> 
> 100 and above is when I'm an insomniac no matter how many times I flip my pillow over to the other side. When I was a child I used to sneak cups of water and pour them all down my neck, and sleep soaked.


same. or upper 80s and 90s if the humidity is awful (like between 70-100%), as it usually is since the place where I live used to be a swamp. X_X

Autumn > Spring > Winter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Summer


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I looked up the average monthly temperatures over here and it's basically 76, 78, 80, 83, blah blah 91, lowest is 60 lol
> 
> Not that bad, I suppose.


Averages here are about 90-108, but this is a guesstimate. Not much rain. Hot, dry, humid. Despicable.

And I live in Washington. It's not really Washington. All lies.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Despicable.


This inspires so much laughter.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I don't know? It's so singular. It always feels like it's all about Jane and Rochester. I like stories that don't feel so isolated and... well... SX


But the sisters


----------



## orbit

Hot is 80 degrees and above

I have no spring. There's three days of spring between winter and summer.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I looked up the average monthly temperatures over here and it's basically 76, 78, 80, 83, blah blah 91, lowest is 60 lol
> 
> Not that bad, I suppose.


I am so envious I could cry.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> I am so envious I could cry.


Never thought I would hear that :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Averages here are about 90-108, but this is a guesstimate. Not much rain. Hot, dry, humid. Despicable.
> 
> And I live in Washington. It's not really Washington. All lies.


as in the state?


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Never thought I would hear that :laughing:


I have long, very thick, somewhat coarse hair that is somewhere between wavy and curly when I let it be. So with how hot and humid it gets here I can turn into this:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> I have long, very thick, somewhat coarse hair that is somewhere between wavy and curly when I let it be. So with how hot and humid it gets here I can turn into this:


Oh, I tackled that problem with a pixie cut. Humid here too :tongue:


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I have long, very thick, somewhat coarse hair that is somewhere between wavy and curly when I let it be. So with how hot and humid it gets here I can turn into this:


Had the same problem. I fixed my curly hair (and it's different for everyone) by not combing my hair in the shower or before I got my hair wet. I combed it before and then I got good shampoo 8D


----------



## Immolate

Oh my goodness. What have I started.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh my goodness. What have I started.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh my goodness. What have I started.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

... I didn't even mention The Crucible or 1984.
@shinynotshiny You brought the question up. What few books have made _you_ cry?


----------



## Greyhart

I absolutely can't remember a book I cried over. I mean there just _had_ to be... OOOOH, wait.










Yes, definitely cried like a baby I was.

The thing is I know I cry over fiction I just can't remember actual occurrences :\ Meanwhile I remember episodes of TMNT I watched in kindergarten.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> ... I didn't even mention The Crucible or 1984.
> @_shinynotshiny_ You brought the question up. What few books have made _you_ cry?


I mentioned one!

And that's all I'll admit to for now :ninja:

Truthfully, though, it surprises me how you guys are affected by so many books. I only cry when something skewers my tert Fi heart.


----------



## Greyhart

Probably cried over Sirius.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I absolutely can't remember a book I cried over. I mean there just _had_ to be... OOOOH, wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, definitely cried like a baby I was.
> 
> The thing is I know I cry over fiction I just can't remember actual occurrences :\ Meanwhile I remember episodes of TMNT I watched in kindergarten.


I was_just_ about to mention Charlotte's Web. That book was my childhood. I am convinced I have read it more times than any other person who has ever walked this earth. I guess I can mention Babe with Charlotte's Web, and Babe made me cry more severely because I stopped crying over Charlotte's Web after a while... but still. Heartbreaking. Especially the end. Oh, the end. And the middle. And the beginning. It's a paper story, kind of, but it's heartbreaking in its own happy way. 

Oh!! Kira Kira. Kira Kira killed my soul. I haven't read it in forever, but if I read it again I can guarantee I would fall apart.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

I bought Twilight at 13 or 14 because vampires=goth right? Stopped halfway through, lent it to a friend with the intentions of never getting it returned. Will never watch the movies. I'm passionate in my disgust, aren't I?

I'll just say this:

Bella is a Mary Sue
Edward is creepy, sexist, and if I had a daughter, I would have a long discussion about the themes (and would probably read the entire series in case she decided to). I believe Twilight attributes to a unfavorable romantic culture women are subjected to. It left a bad taste in my mouth, even half way through.
Myers came across as... old fashioned, with strange beliefs and depictions of people quite removed from reality. And the dialogue. Dear lord. it was if she isolated herself in a cabin in the woods and her only knowledge of human interaction happened to be Lifetime movies.
Cliche. Somehow I had read everything she had written before... even if I had not. It's prose reeked of "wow this is going to be a bestseller!" 
Purple prose, boring details. Enough said. It came across as bad 13 year old fan fiction with too much reliance on after school creative writing classes. 
What petty romance.

People say I hate romance... Victorian romance is where it's at. Nick Sparks and Twilight no (...Ok maybe I do like The Notebook).

I cannot think of a book that has made me cry... aside from psychology books that related to my pain, lol. Embarrassing. I'm like @Greyhart... I've cried over text, but cannot recall any at the top of my head.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Probably cried over Sirius.


I cried when Harry mentioned in the last chapter of the sixth book that he liked girls who didn't cry. What a jerk. I don't need your Fi-dom protagonist nonexistent approval of me anyway.


----------



## Greyhart

I FEEL LIKE I NEED TO REMEMBER ANYTHING I CRIED OVER NOW SO I WON'T BE LEFT OUT.

OK, so I went over my current TV show list. I think I cried over something in The Good Wife but can't remember what. And Hannibal. Can't remember why either.

Years ago I watched The Jacket movie definitely cried over than one a lot.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Probably cried over Sirius.


I teared up a little bit about Dumbledore.



Maybe.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I FEEL LIKE I NEED TO REMEMBER ANYTHING I CRIED OVER NOW SO I WON'T BE LEFT OUT.
> 
> OK, so I went over my current TV show list. I think I cried over something in The Good Wife but can't remember what. And Hannibal. Can't remember why either.
> 
> Years ago I watched The Jacket movie definitely cried over than one a lot.


Eugh. You had to bring up tv.

Forever keep my secrets.


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Tell me about your character; sounds interesting. I did some google searching because I realized there was an abnormality in my approaches to religion and wanted to see if perhaps there was a name for it... and there was. Not religion's fault; just wiry brain chemistry.


Sorry about that 
Ehh, she's just a side character, the first love interest of my main character. I believe she has anorexia mirabilis, as she is fasting (for religious reasons to the point of killing herself). She's meant to represent pure love and innocence, maybe grace or something, I'm a little uncomfortable because I want her to represent the pure essence of faith but she's also demonstrating the bad effects...but I think it's ok, as I think it is obvious that she is a good character, though with mental issues, and the main point is that my main character makes sacrifices for her, and encourages her to join a convent (it's the 5th century) to save her life, although he wishes to marry her, so part of what she represents is who he was while with her. If that makes sense.



> Your childhood sounded rough; I am glad you had an active imagination that utilized escape. You sounded very sweet and interesting, btw. I was never shy either- I acted in plays, raised my hand without qualms, was talkative, liked participating, but also kept to the sidelines and enjoyed solitude immensely. Shyness kicked in as I grew older, actually. I was not much for the center of attention though (aside from achievement recognition- I saw popularity under that category... and realize I actually would of disliked it if it did happen)... I would try to hide being sick because the attention made me uncomfortable. I read a self help book at like 7 about a women enjoying being sick because of the attention she received... boggled the mind.


Nah, my childhood was fine) Hm) I would hide being sick or injured too, not so much because I didn't want attention but because I wanted to be some sort of hero, I don't know, I really liked the idea of being the person who didn't say when she was sick or something))



> I wouldn't let my anecdotes shy you away from introversion. The more I read... the more I realize you probably are. A few people think I'm somewhat Ti heavy for an ISFJ... not sure I agree with that, tbh...When it gets to the point where a multitude of typings people offer you confuse you... figure your type for yourself. You gain more introspecting anyway. Sometimes E vs I should be an afterthought. I think it's useful to know your inferior function, but SFJ is a fine preliminary typing.


True. I just don't feel qualified to judge my own character...because I'm me already) I see everything from my perspective) But I know what you mean.

Thanks for your thoughts))


----------



## fair phantom

I think the reason why I cry when reading is that often characters become like real people to me: friends, family. So when they die or suffer, I feel it as if it happened to someone close to me, or even to myself.


----------



## Greyhart

*uses twilight discussion to link this fascinating post yet again*
*and then also mortal instruments*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

The Green Mile should be illegal. What even. 

I remember sitting on the ground, watching Stitch Has A Glitch. I was REALLY into the Lilo and Stitch thing, so this was a big deal. And Stitch died or something ? (Spoiler alert) and I was weeping in the ground and my dad comes up and goes "You know it's a Disney movie, he's not dead..." 

I still cried. Because it hurt. And he's not totally correct, like I remembered that when watching freaking Big Hero 6 only that someone DID NOT come back and. Ugh. Feels. But I do think it significant that Stitch Has A Glitch affected me so deeply.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I cried when Harry mentioned in the last chapter of the sixth book that he liked girls who didn't cry. What a jerk. I don't need your Fi-dom protagonist nonexistent approval of me anyway.


Ugh. I would have given him an earful over that. Don't even get me started on how Cho was treated.

For me it was...Hedwig. I know. I know. Also maybe a bit over Lupin's situation in book 3. My heart broke for him.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

My news station had a breaking news alert about the death of a family pet in our community. I feel so safe.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> I think the reason why I cry when reading is that often characters become like real people to me: friends, family. So when they die or suffer, I feel it as if it happened to someone close to me, or even to myself.


I feel so cold inside.


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> I did find Ni last night. I think. Mentioning Watership Down got me reading _Watership Down_, and I think my favorite character is basically the manifestation of Ni (in perhaps an awful trope way). He is communicated about the future in mostly incomprehensible images that others don't understand (but which are always right), and he often gets too far into his own head and his mystic world to be pulled back to reality.
> 
> The sad thing is, he's not a hero for his visions. He is, but it takes a while for anyone to appreciate him. He's an outcast because he does not meet the typical rabbit standards. While they come to respect him, he stays a pariah (which is primarily why my heart goes out to him so much). I find that interesting, because the INxJ characters are often so idealized in books... Hopefully this one wasn't too close to reality, and high Ni users aren't shunned like that, but it did show some of the downfalls of having too much vision for society.


I love that book, and the film. I agree that his Ni use is a change from the norm: instead of being the mentor or the wise character, he's excluded or seen as abnormal because of his ''powers''. I quite liked that his brother was extremely grounded and the two of them balanced each other very well. Maybe it's kind of as if, when Ni runs rampant, it needs a grounded function to guide it back to the world and keep it from terrifying itself?


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> I just... I don't know? I don't see what's all that traumatizing about Disney movies.
> 
> We mentioned Bambi earlier. How terrible it was, the death of his mother. Too much for kids.
> 
> I have a cousin. Growing up, she was _obsessed_ with Bambi. You have no idea. I say I was obsessed with Charlotte'sWebb, but I had nothing on this girl. I was born when she was nine, and growing up I still remember traces of her Bambi obsession. Her brother got into the worst trouble for stealing the movie and keeping it out of use, but he thought it worth it because they watched it too dern much.
> 
> My cousin was abandoned by her mother. I've never spoken to her about Bambi - or anything, really, we kind of have an awkward relationship - but... I think that, deep down, that's something she connected to.
> 
> For some children, maybe Disney is traumatizing. Maybe. Maybe it is too terrible for them. But for some kids, it helps them cope. It's terrible, but still not nearly as terrible as their actual lives. They need that deep stuff.
> 
> I don't know. There's my pathos. I'm just a little shocked that people are trying to say for a second that Disney is too much for kids... Partially because I've never considered it, but partially because I just don't think think it is. There are a lot of things that kids should not have to deal with, but I don't think that Disney movies are one of them.


People always talk about Bambi, but for me it was Mufasa in The Lion King. That was pretty upsetting.

But, weirdly, it didn't really connect with me until I was older and rewatched the film - I had a sudden moment of going 'Oh no, this is actually really upsetting', when previously, as a younger child, I wasn't very bothered by it. I also think Disney films and most other films aimed at kids are generally fine. Sure, there are some bits which are scary or upsetting, but that's just part of life and it sticks with you - it makes the film/book memorable and gives it a deeper meaning for you. For example, the Redwall series can be quite violent, but it never really bothered me because it was balanced by nice things, like them going on adventures together. As long as there's the balance of good and bad, the child shouldn't be too affected overall - especially if there's a happy ending and everything's resolved well.

(This is probably a slightly off perspective though, considering I watched a lot of films that were not for children when I was young i.e. the Japanese Ring film, Blade, Payback etc. but I remember the only films that really upset me when I was little were Ring and Chicken Run - completely different films, but equally disturbing to me.)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I just... I don't know? I don't see what's all that traumatizing about Disney movies.
> 
> We mentioned Bambi earlier. How terrible it was, the death of his mother. Too much for kids.
> 
> I have a cousin. Growing up, she was _obsessed_ with Bambi. You have no idea. I say I was obsessed with Charlotte'sWebb, but I had nothing on this girl. I was born when she was nine, and growing up I still remember traces of her Bambi obsession. Her brother got into the worst trouble for stealing the movie and keeping it out of use, but he thought it worth it because they watched it too dern much.
> 
> My cousin was abandoned by her mother. I've never spoken to her about Bambi - or anything, really, we kind of have an awkward relationship - but... I think that, deep down, that's something she connected to.
> 
> For some children, maybe Disney is traumatizing. Maybe. Maybe it is too terrible for them. But for some kids, it helps them cope. It's terrible, but still not nearly as terrible as their actual lives. They need that deep stuff.
> 
> I don't know. There's my pathos. I'm just a little shocked that people are trying to say for a second that Disney is too much for kids... Partially because I've never considered it, but partially because I just don't think think it is. There are a lot of things that kids should not have to deal with, but I don't think that Disney movies are one of them.


I didn't see this ninja post.

I think the older Disney movies were more open to exploring topics like abandonment, death of a parent, and so on. I remember growing up watching The Little Mermaid and Aladdin. These were fun movies for a little girl. Then I remember watching Dumbo, Pinocchio, and The Fox and the Hound. I was sensitive to these topics, and I didn't like the way I carried around certain feelings after watching movies like this. I took it to heart and thought about how sad and unfair it was for someone to lose their father or be denied a good chance at life.

But I wouldn't say Disney is traumatizing. I wouldn't even say Disney bothers most children. My distaste and criticism of Disney was more facetious than serious, and I avoid it nowadays because I don't like when something or someone goes out of the way to inspire sadness or sentimentality. In fact, these movies are more sad to me now as an adult because I understand certain things on a deeper or more personal level.



alittlebear said:


> This is too much for me. I am aborting the thread.
> 
> Edit: Just to be clear this is joking sarcasm


I know


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> I love that book, and the film. I agree that his Ni use is a change from the norm: instead of being the mentor or the wise character, he's excluded or seen as abnormal because of his ''powers''. I quite liked that his brother was extremely grounded and the two of them balanced each other very well. *Maybe it's kind of as if, when Ni runs rampant, it needs a grounded function to guide it back to the world and keep it from terrifying itself?*


I like that interpretation a lot. I always enjoyed how all the characters balanced each other out, like Hazel was the voice of reason, Fiver was the one with the drive to move forward, Bigwig was he one who did what had to be done etc.

If you think about it, going by your mentor comment, most of the mentors in fiction are sort of outcast, although respected. Because they're usually fairly decent characters, people seem to miss that, but if you go into the story then they must be very much alone, isolated by their abilities.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh my goodness. People who actually know what I'm talking about when I mention Watership Down? Too good to be true. 
@laurie17 @tine I hate to ask this desperate and way too MBTI question but what type do you think Hazel was? (I would start a topic and might still but eh since we're all here) 

I know a lot of people love Hazel, but he reminded me of the foil character to my favorite Warriors character so I didn't love him as much. (Warriors took so much from Watership Down, it's ridiculous.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I didn't see this ninja post.
> 
> I think the older Disney movies were more open to exploring topics like abandonment, death of a parent, and so on. I remember growing up watching The Little Mermaid and Aladdin. These were fun movies for a little girl. Then I remember watching Dumbo, Pinocchio, and The Fox and the Hound. I was sensitive to these topics, and I didn't like the way I carried around certain feelings after watching movies like this. I took it to heart and thought about how sad and unfair it was for someone to lose their father or be denied a good chance at life.
> 
> But I wouldn't say Disney is traumatizing. I wouldn't even say Disney bothers most children. My distaste and criticism of Disney was more facetious than serious, and I avoid it nowadays because I don't like when something or someone goes out of the way to inspire sadness or sentimentality. In fact, these movies are more sad to me now as an adult because I understand certain things on a deeper or more personal level.
> 
> 
> 
> I know


When mentioning the older Disney movies... Yes. They were rampant with heartbreak. We saw Fox and the Hound last year before getting our new puppy, and oh my goodness... That stuff is emotionally awful. Raw. I can see where criticism would come into that, and why you would be hesitant to watch even current Disney movies. While I don't think they are inappropriate for children, because children must learn some things (better through a cartoon than through real life), I think it's understandable to know what something does to you as an adult and to protect yourself from it as you desire to.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

shinynotshiny said:


> @_FearAndTrembling_ thank you for adding to the discussion of functions. I'm sure @_alittlebear_ will adjust.


Ni also paints with extremely broad strokes. lol. It is big on totality, and wants to cram everything into its preconceived vision. I was talking to this INTJ yesterday, he may be an INFJ too. Anyway, he said he knows nothing about Malcolm X but then went on to tell me how he fits into this cosmic/universal perspective on slavery. I am the same way. Ti starts with logic. Ni starts with vision. Ti actually dissects things. It gets out its carving knives. It zooms in. Ni zooms out. Ti cares a lot about precision. Ni cares nothing about it. It zooms out until all things are the same. You can't see lines of distinction. Ti zooms in and goes to work. It cuts stuff up, it divides. That is what reason is. Ni lets the whole remain untouched. It is a dynamic living thing. Judging functions freeze a living thing, chop off a small piece and say this piece contains all pieces. The whole is never seen. 

It can get ridiculous too. You can find likeness in everything so that nothing matters at all. 

This is how Si and Ni are alike. Ni is just weirder, and comes from a point of view from a person who could only be in their own world. Like when Jung was describing Ni, one of the first things he said was that these people are often considered cranks. Si categorizes useful things usually. An ISFJ will bury you with the information they have on you. They are great observers and will remember everything you ever did. ISTJ probably too. They aren't doing it for bad reasons, they just naturally are interested in people and categorize their experiences. An INFJ does something similar, but they are less consistent and jump around more. I think what Arkigos means about Si creating mythology is that it separates things into black and white. It abstracts those qualities and builds the world that way. Ni does something similar, but in theory adds them together to the point they literally become a dream world, and can have no effect in the real world. The Si world is very carefully built. The Ni world is not.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I just... I don't know? I don't see what's all that traumatizing about Disney movies.
> 
> We mentioned Bambi earlier. How terrible it was, the death of his mother. Too much for kids.
> 
> For some children, maybe Disney is traumatizing. Maybe. Maybe it is too terrible for them. But for some kids, it helps them cope. It's terrible, but still not nearly as terrible as their actual lives. They need that deep stuff.
> 
> I don't know. There's my pathos. I'm just a little shocked that people are trying to say for a second that Disney is too much for kids... Partially because I've never considered it, but partially because I just don't think think it is. There are a lot of things that kids should not have to deal with, but I don't think that Disney movies are one of them.


Are you J.K. Rowling? Exactly what she says about devastating stuff in children's fiction. "They can handle it, they're much stronger than parents think," etc.

I don't like sad stories involving animals. Never have, never will. Hence, I avoid them like the plague. I love The Lion King because it's such a gorgeous film, but I still feel kind of sick when Mufasa dies. Somehow, loss is made all the worse for me when it's through people-like animals. I'm really just Pocahontas deep down inside: every rock, and tree, and creature... has a life, has a spirit, has a name. 

Whenever I discuss anything with a Ni, it winds up with me thinking: "WTF are you even talking about?"


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> When mentioning the older Disney movies... Yes. They were rampant with heartbreak. We saw Fox and the Hound last year before getting our new puppy, and oh my goodness... That stuff is emotionally awful. Raw. I can see where criticism would come into that, and why you would be hesitant to watch even current Disney movies. While I don't think they are inappropriate for children, because children must learn some things (better through a cartoon than through real life), *I think it's understandable to know what something does to you as an adult and to protect yourself from it as you desire to.*


Yes, but for that to be entirely true, I'd have to avoid more than just Pixar/Disney 

It's more that I dislike the idea and intent behind these movies, the displays of emotion and sentimentality.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Oh my goodness. People who actually know what I'm talking about when I mention Watership Down? Too good to be true.
> @_laurie17_ @_tine_ I hate to ask this desperate and way too MBTI question but what type do you think Hazel was? (I would start a topic and might still but eh since we're all here)
> 
> I know a lot of people love Hazel, but he reminded me of the foil character to my favorite Warriors character so I didn't love him as much. (Warriors took so much from Watership Down, it's ridiculous.)


Watership Down is one of my favourite books (and films). It's just so well thought-out and put together. I actually thought Hazel could be ISFJ, but I can't remember it well enough to come up with a convincing argument for that.

Another book that took a lot from Watership Down was Tailchaser's Song, which my friend gave to me and I told him was basically Watership Down but with cats (there's even a burrow at the end with a dictator giant cat!).


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Dumbo actually never traumatized me somehow.

Most people discuss being terrified by this scene, yet it was always my favorite:






The truly terrifying Disney film (not *technically* Disney, but whatevs):






This movie always unsettled me and made me deeply uncomfortable... but I enjoyed that in a way.

I would always be mortified of stumbling across something too "scary" though... I used to avoid things out of fear they would scare me. I realized I avoided things that actually weren't scary at all, especially in comparison to that film. Lol what.

Trauma is different for kids. I could handle Disney death scenes rather well... my sister could not. She skipped over Mufausa's death scene. I received animosity when I showed her All Dogs go to Heaven. A childhood favorite of mine... the death scenes at the end mortified her. Too *sad*. "But.... he's her guardian angel now!" That meant nothing to her.

I actually think most of what they showed on Nickelodeon in the 90's was 100000x more traumatizing than a Disney flick. You recall the Rugrats and remember a seemingly innocuous cartoon, and then remember being frightened of bathtub drains, using the toilet and monsters under your bed and the apocalypse... all thanks to that fucking cartoon.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla The Brave Little Toaster was _terrible_. I can't even. I've tried to repress all memories of it. 

That scene in Dumbo really, really got to me. It was so weird. I can't even with that either 

I actually really cannot stand Nickolodean in comparison to Disney. Look at the Nick shows. (I mean the Teen Nick shows.) They're terrible. No values. Just... humor. Designed to sell. (I hate iCarly more than I hate a lot of atrocious things. Don't care if she's an Fe-dom, she's an absolute jerk.) Disney has pulled some low jokes in the past decade on their shows, but it still think they put quality above cheap entertainment. They have the money to, after all. You laugh, but you also learn something deep. Nick did that a _little_, and I think they're getting better about age appropriate and morally good content now, but back in the day it seemed like all crude laughter and just a touch of actual goodness.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> Ni also paints with extremely broad strokes. lol. It is big on totality, and wants to cram everything into its preconceived vision. I was talking to this INTJ yesterday, he may be an INFJ too. Anyway, he said he knows nothing about Malcolm X but then went on to tell me how he fits into this cosmic/universal perspective on slavery. I am the same way. Ti starts with logic. Ni starts with vision. Ti actually dissects things. It gets out its carving knives. It zooms in. Ni zooms out. Ti cares a lot about precision. Ni cares nothing about it. It zooms out until all things are the same. You can't see lines of distinction. Ti zooms in and goes to work. It cuts stuff up, it divides. That is what reason is. Ni lets the whole remain untouched. It is a dynamic living thing. Judging functions freeze a living thing, chop off a small piece and say this piece contains all pieces. The whole is never seen.
> 
> It can get ridiculous too. You can find likeness in everything so that nothing matters at all.
> 
> This is how Si and Ni are alike. Ni is just weirder, and comes from a point of view from a person who could only be in their own world. Like when Jung was describing Ni, one of the first things he said was that these people are often considered cranks. Si categorizes useful things usually. An ISFJ will bury you with the information they have on you. They are great observers and will remember everything you ever did. ISTJ probably too. They aren't doing it for bad reasons, they just naturally are interested in people and categorize their experiences. An INFJ does something similar, but they are less consistent and jump around more. I think what Arkigos means about Si creating mythology is that it separates things into black and white. It abstracts those qualities and builds the world that way. Ni does something similar, but in theory adds them together to the point they literally become a dream world, and can have no effect in the real world. The Si world is very carefully built. The Ni world is not.


Si and Ni both abstract, but Si is more specific and concrete. This serves as the foundation for a structured world, whereas Ni is broad and fluid, creating a world removed from structure and reality.

Did I understand you correctly? 

@hoopla the drunk scene has always been entertaining, but now I feel sad because oh no drunk baby elephant. What saddened me was the way he was ostracized for being different and how he was removed from his mother, that loneliness.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Are you J.K. Rowling? Exactly what she says about devastating stuff in children's fiction. "They can handle it, they're much stronger than parents think," etc.
> 
> I don't like sad stories involving animals. Never have, never will. Hence, I avoid them like the plague. I love The Lion King because it's such a gorgeous film, but I still feel kind of sick when Mufasa dies. Somehow, loss is made all the worse for me when it's through people-like animals. I'm really just Pocahontas deep down inside: every rock, and tree, and creature... has a life, has a spirit, has a name.
> 
> Whenever I discuss anything with a Ni, it winds up with me thinking: "WTF are you even talking about?"


I remember reading reviews and even talking to parents (moms) who were simply mortified by the fourth HP book. I can see why - it is a bit violent, what happens to Harry especially - but I still think it's a masterpiece, and an appropriate one. They argue that it's not Christian. I kind of laugh a little and wonder how non violent they think our Gospel is. 

I think sad stories with animals hurt in Disney especially because the shield of subject matter being "animals" makes it so they feel they can go into bigger topics. Would you see an actual, human dad thrown to his death and mourned by his small son in a Disney film? Not a chance, right? How about a mother shot and killed? Nope. Part of it might be our too-aggressive extension of feelings towards animals, but I think a lot of it is what we have been made to endure under the producer's comfort of animals as subject matter. 

(PS - don't read/watch Watership Down. Just don't.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> Watership Down is one of my favourite books (and films). It's just so well thought-out and put together. I actually thought Hazel could be ISFJ, but I can't remember it well enough to come up with a convincing argument for that.
> 
> Another book that took a lot from Watership Down was Tailchaser's Song, which my friend gave to me and I told him was basically Watership Down but with cats (there's even a burrow at the end with a dictator giant cat!).


I think I've heard of Tailchaser's Song... I might check it out sometime. 

Hazel as ISFJ... hmm. He's certainly an Fe-driven leader, and he has to use Si... ISFJ would make sense, or xSFJ at least.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I remember reading reviews and even talking to parents (moms) who were simply mortified by the fourth HP book. I can see why - it is a bit violent, what happens to Harry especially - but I still think it's a masterpiece, and an appropriate one. They argue that it's not Christian. I kind of laugh a little and wonder how non violent they think our Gospel is.


Funny thing, that. I noticed after becoming a HP fan that all the "HP is evil" arguments stemmed from THAT scene with Voldemort and ranted about witchcraft. Which, if they had bothered to read the entire book, is moot, because Voldemort is the villain, he does use dark magic, and it's not painted in a good light at all. It's shown to be evil. So saying that that scene shows the evil nature of the entire book series is stupid, because that scene epitomizes why Voldemort is irredeemable and evil and why Harry is the hero. 

Oh, but the GOSPEL is not ENTERTAINMENT, so it is DIFFERENT. IE, thou shalt not touch the scriptures, but thou can watch whatever else thy wants the rest of the week.



> I think sad stories with animals hurt in Disney especially because the shield of subject matter being "animals" makes it so they feel they can go into bigger topics. Would you see an actual, human dad thrown to his death and mourned by his small son in a Disney film? Not a chance, right? How about a mother shot and killed? Nope. Part of it might be our too-aggressive extension of feelings towards animals, but I think a lot of it is what we have been made to endure under the producer's comfort of animals as subject matter.


Yeah. It bothers me more when it's animals for some reason. I was a sensitive kid. Now I watch "Hannibal" and discuss the symbolic themes of cannibalism casually with my friends. I watch witches get their heads blown off in "Hansel & Gretel." Yet, God forbid a movie shows someone drowning a kitten in a sack.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@shinynotshiny NO don't ruin the pink elephant scene for me. I have never thought about that despite knowing deep down subconsciously because that scene is gold.

That's exactly why the Dumbo scene made me sad. So misunderstood. :crying:
@alittlebear I was 13, I think, when iCarly came out, which was around the time I outgrew my Nick phase so I've only seen one episode maybe. My feelings were more "omg this is the shit kids have to watch horrible"... until I realized I watched terrible shows as a kid and liked them because well... I was a kid.

I actually believe the Smurfs and Captain Planet had worse lessons for children than anything on Nick... haha. I wrote a large essay about what Spongebob taught me awhile back... and the people I showed it to were like "wtf you are reading way too much into things it's a damn cartoon!" That show teaches you what not to do socially, if you ask me.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ NO don't ruin the pink elephant scene for me. I have never thought about that despite knowing deep down subconsciously because that scene is gold.
> 
> That's exactly why the Dumbo scene made me sad. So misunderstood. :crying:





> Look out! Look out!
> Pink elephants on parade
> Here they come!
> Hippety hoppety
> They're here and there
> Pink elephants ev'rywhere
> Look out! Look out!
> They're walking around the bed
> On their head
> Clippety cloppety
> Arrayed in braid
> Pink elephants on parade
> What'll I do? What'll I do?
> What an unusual view!
> *I could stand the sight of worms
> And look at microscopic germs
> But technicolor pachyderms
> Is really much for me
> I am not the type to faint
> When things are odd or things
> are quaint
> But seeing things you know that ain't
> Can certainly give you an awful fright!*
> What a sight!
> Chase 'em away!
> Chase 'em away!
> I'm afraid need your aid
> Pink elephants on parade!
> Pink elephants!
> Pink elephants!


Poor baby Dumbo.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> Funny thing, that. I noticed after becoming a HP fan that all the "HP is evil" arguments stemmed from THAT scene with Voldemort and ranted about witchcraft. Which, if they had bothered to read the entire book, is moot, because Voldemort is the villain, he does use dark magic, and it's not painted in a good light at all. It's shown to be evil. So saying that that scene shows the evil nature of the entire book series is stupid, because that scene epitomizes why Voldemort is irredeemable and evil and why Harry is the hero.
> 
> Oh, but the GOSPEL is not ENTERTAINMENT, so it is DIFFERENT. IE, thou shalt not touch the scriptures, but thou can watch whatever else thy wants the rest of the week.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. It bothers me more when it's animals for some reason. I was a sensitive kid. Now I watch "Hannibal" and discuss the symbolic themes of cannibalism casually with my friends. I watch witches get their heads blown off in "Hansel & Gretel." Yet, God forbid a movie shows someone drowning a kitten in a sack.


Isn't it interesting how certain media portrayals of morbidity are a no-brainer, and others upset us? It's innocence, I'm telling you. Villain dies! Yay! Background character gets it's head decapitated? We barely knew thee... huge, saucer plate blue eyes lodged on a white ball of fur drowns in a river... cue the water works.


----------



## Immolate

I liked these as a kid. Poor Batty.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> Isn't it interesting how certain media portrayals of morbidity are a no-brainer, and others upset us? It's innocence, I'm telling you. Villain dies! Yay! Background character gets it's head decapitated? We barely knew thee... huge, saucer plate blue eyes lodged on a white ball of fur drowns in a river... cue the water works.


I've found that realistic violence bothers me more than unrealistic violence, against people.

What I mean by that is -- historical violence, and violence that really happened to actual people. That somehow cements it more in my mind as being real and I am made more uncomfortable by it. Depictions of Roman crucifixions, for example -- those really happened. The pain and awfulness of it was real, and real people went through it, so I flinch. Or... Braveheart. I would find that hard to watch, because again, though fictionalized, these things happened. I can't really watch much SVU or I start feeling sick and hating humanity on the whole, because again, people get sexually abused. I really don't do well with torture scenes of any kind either.

But fantasy violence -- witches exploding, or vampires jerking out people's hearts, or even the weird surreal Ni-stuff like "Hannibal" doesn't really bother me, because it's not meant to be serious, and though these things can and might happen, it's not specific in that it DID happen to a particular REAL person. Some of it isn't even logically possible, so that helps give it an edge of fantasy. 

Yet, I've noticed a disconnect between generations; it seems that mine is much more desensitized to violence than my parents' generation. I might flinch a little watching "A.D." on Sunday nights and observing Roman brutality (and I know a lot about the period, so a lot of it is correct) but that's a far cry from my mother, cringing her way through it and complaining about the violence later. Neither of my parents could ever watch half of what I do, and I've actually been questioned a few times by my dad about my taste ("Doesn't that bother you?"). I think growing up in a progressively desensitized culture hasn't been all that great; and when it carries over into real life (so far, that hasn't happened for me, thankfully) it tends to make society apathetic about violence itself.

Regarding animals, I think that speaks to my natural desire to protect anything smaller and weaker than myself. It seems fundamentally amoral to me to abuse animals in any way, either through meanness or neglect. I feel the same way about children. I've often pondered how horrible it is that it bothers me more to see horses die in war epics than background humans, I guess because of my belief that the horse did not sign up for the army or know that it was risking its life to be there. But in truth, all loss of life is awful.


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> Oh my goodness. People who actually know what I'm talking about when I mention Watership Down? Too good to be true.
> @_laurie17_ @_tine_ I hate to ask this desperate and way too MBTI question but what type do you think Hazel was? (I would start a topic and might still but eh since we're all here)
> 
> I know a lot of people love Hazel, but he reminded me of the foil character to my favorite Warriors character so I didn't love him as much. (Warriors took so much from Watership Down, it's ridiculous.)


Im surprised you havent met more! It's brilliant.
I think Hazel is a sensing type, probably using Si and Fe. He seems to be able to conform enough to have the respect of the other rabbits and is very considerate, especially with Fiver. He also seems to have a good grasp on his lower functions, which makes me a little unsure of his exact type, but I think possibly Si or Fe dominant (I'm leaning more to Fe dominant). I could also see Ni in there, which may be why he relates so well to Fiver, but is more grounded with an external function dominantly?


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> I think I've heard of Tailchaser's Song... I might check it out sometime.
> 
> Hazel as ISFJ... hmm. He's certainly an Fe-driven leader, and he has to use Si... ISFJ would make sense, or xSFJ at least.


It's a good book, but very, very similar to Watership Down (except much less detailed). 

I thought ISFJ because he seems to remain very open for a long time, then eventually comes to a judgement about the right thing to do, which is based on what would be best for the group. I'm not really sure why he doesn't come across as ESFJ to me... He also seems potentially enneagram 9w1.


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> When mentioning the older Disney movies... Yes. They were rampant with heartbreak. We saw Fox and the Hound last year before getting our new puppy, and oh my goodness... That stuff is emotionally awful. Raw. I can see where criticism would come into that, and why you would be hesitant to watch even current Disney movies. While I don't think they are inappropriate for children, because children must learn some things (better through a cartoon than through real life), I think it's understandable to know what something does to you as an adult and to protect yourself from it as you desire to.


The fox and the hound made me so upset and angry as a kid - I hated how humans turned them against each other. I, like @laurie17 , found the lion king pretty upsetting with Mufasa and also with Simba's reaction and stuff.


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> Yes, a lot. For introverts I also think that trying to engage on the same level as extrovert would be overwhelming _and_ draining which would spoil whatever party/gathering they are in. So it seems to me that my friends are more comfortable with just chilling around and watching general social chaos unfold. I don't think that healthy introverts don't enjoy parties just have a different way of engaging them. Actually to me it seems that for my INFP bff getting a bunch of people together and just watching them go is a really fun activity. At least she seems to really like participating in those despite being total octopus in those situations.


Yeah, my brain works way too slowly to keep up with all that _stuff_ going on - I'm better one-on-one or in groups of 3, 4 max, in a quieter environment. But I do enjoy watching people, especially when they start getting interesting. I dunno. I'm a bit of a creep really. 



Greyhart said:


> That sounds like super power :O


What, the crying-when-you-get-overwhelmed? You can have it if you want. -_-



alittlebear said:


> For some children, maybe Disney is traumatizing. Maybe. Maybe it is too terrible for them. But for some kids, it helps them cope. It's terrible, but still not nearly as terrible as their actual lives. They need that deep stuff.
> 
> I don't know. There's my pathos. I'm just a little shocked that people are trying to say for a second that Disney is too much for kids... Partially because I've never considered it, but partially because I just don't think think it is. There are a lot of things that kids should not have to deal with, but I don't think that Disney movies are one of them.


I never found it too much as a kid. Not at all. I loved the emotional highs and lows. I also used to hunt down the original versions (or at least closer to the original versions) of the fairy tales so I could revel in all their messed-up glory. I freaked out my mother with some of the things I wrote and drew as a kid, poor woman. As an adult I can look back and think they were pretty tame, but she's so... conservative. Light. And ex-Catholic. _So_ much guilt. I think there are some American Catholics on this thread? Do you guys have the whole feel-guilty-about-everything going on, or is it just some weird Australian thing?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Ellicat said:


> I never found it too much as a kid. Not at all. I loved the emotional highs and lows. I also used to hunt down the original versions (or at least closer to the original versions) of the fairy tales so I could revel in all their messed-up glory. I freaked out my mother with some of the things I wrote and drew as a kid, poor woman. As an adult I can look back and think they were pretty tame, but she's so... conservative. Light. And ex-Catholic. So much guilt. I think there are some American Catholics on this thread? Do you guys have the whole feel-guilty-about-everything going on, or is it just some weird Australian thing?


I know the guilt. It's actually caused several severe mental health problems for me... I took our faulty, terrible nature as humans much too seriously. Still I struggle with it. I've come to see myself as an innately and irrecoverably flawed thing, but it can't work for other humans... I can, most the time, only see the glowing core of others, that beautiful thing that continues to shine even as they intentionally bring harm to others and do things they know are wrong and bad for themselves and others. (And then I feel bad for having such an unbiblical outlook on humanity, ha. If only I were kidding.) 

But I can't help it. Every human but me is gorgeous. I don't know. It's complicated. I'm learning to see myself as just as beautiful too, and to come to terms with how we as humans can be both beautiful and flawed, that our beauty can be present even with our flaws, it is just buried, and percieving the goodness of others is not a sin... But I don't know. Honestly my Catholic guilt is a very nuanced thing for me. (But, yes... It is most certainly a thing.)


----------



## Fuzzystorm

Jumping in to the Disney discussion if that's alright. 

I personally have never found Mufasa's death in TLK truly upsetting ... probably because the tone of the film is less glum overall (compared to Disney films like Bambi or Fox and the Hound) and the lively Hakuna Matata number soon follows.  Plus, Mufasa offering his guidance later in the film does make his absence less sad and more ... meaningful? It does better to reinforce the idea that Simba was to learn to take initiative and responsibility himself in order to become a successful ruler of his kingdom. Although I guess Bambi had a somewhat similar idea with the mother's death, for some reason it came across as somewhat of a pointless tragedy. It was less "learning to grow up/transitioning to adulthood" then it was "sometimes, sad things just happen, and there's nothing you can do about it." :/



alittlebear said:


> When mentioning the older Disney movies... Yes. They were rampant with heartbreak. We saw Fox and the Hound last year before getting our new puppy, and oh my goodness... That stuff is emotionally awful. Raw. I can see where criticism would come into that, and why you would be hesitant to watch even current Disney movies. While I don't think they are inappropriate for children, because children must learn some things (better through a cartoon than through real life), I think it's understandable to know what something does to you as an adult and to protect yourself from it as you desire to.





shinynotshiny said:


> I think the older Disney movies were more open to exploring topics like abandonment, death of a parent, and so on. I remember growing up watching The Little Mermaid and Aladdin. These were fun movies for a little girl. Then I remember watching Dumbo, Pinocchio, and The Fox and the Hound. I was sensitive to these topics, and I didn't like the way I carried around certain feelings after watching movies like this. I took it to heart and thought about how sad and unfair it was for someone to lose their father or be denied a good chance at life.


I agree with this about the older Disney movies, and I remember feeling the same way you describe as a child, @shinynotshiny. The abandonment themes in pre-Renaissance era Disney, especially the movies you mentioned, made them seem very sullen overall. Bambi and Dumbo seemed to operate on this outlook of "the world is a random, sad and unjust place, and you are ultimately alone." Quite unsettling to me even if they do end happily.



hoopla said:


> Dumbo actually never traumatized me somehow.
> 
> Most people discuss being terrified by this scene, yet it was always my favorite:


I don't remember ever being bothered by Dumbo's Pink Elephants scene, but Pinocchio's Pleasure Island always gave me the creeps. It wasn't even the actual scene(s) with the donkey transitions that scared me - just the whole vibe of that place even still to this day is disconcerting to me, how it was this eerie, middle-of-nowhere island rampant with corruption and debauchery and where young children were sent and never returned or were never the same.

I just watched that clip from Brave Little Toaster (had never seen it before) ... needless to say I'm relieved I decided to watch that now when it's currently midday. Although I might not be able to sleep tonight.

Not Disney, but anyone else remember this lovely Boat Ride from childhood?






And then ... the FOREST ...









alittlebear said:


> I actually really cannot stand Nickolodean in comparison to Disney. Look at the Nick shows. (I mean the Teen Nick shows.) They're terrible. No values. Just... humor. Designed to sell. (I hate iCarly more than I hate a lot of atrocious things. Don't care if she's an Fe-dom, she's an absolute jerk.) Disney has pulled some low jokes in the past decade on their shows, but it still think they put quality above cheap entertainment. They have the money to, after all. You laugh, but you also learn something deep. Nick did that a _little_, and I think they're getting better about age appropriate and morally good content now, but back in the day it seemed like all crude laughter and just a touch of actual goodness.


Although I enjoyed Drake & Josh, it did seem a lot of the later Dan Schneider shows (iCarly, Victorious, etc) loved to teach their viewers that being rude, abrasive and inconsiderate = funny.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> I know the guilt. It's actually caused several severe mental health problems for me... I took our faulty, terrible nature as humans much too seriously. Still I struggle with it. I've come to see myself as an innately and irrecoverably flawed thing, but it can't work for other humans... I can, most the time, only see the glowing core of others, that beautiful thing that continues to shine even as they intentionally bring harm to others and do things they know are wrong and bad for themselves and others. (And then I feel bad for having such an unbiblical outlook on humanity, ha. If only I were kidding.)
> 
> But I can't help it. Every human but me is gorgeous. I don't know. It's complicated. I'm learning to see myself as just as beautiful too, and to come to terms with how we as humans can be both beautiful and flawed, that our beauty can be present even with our flaws, it is just buried, and percieving the goodness of others is not a sin... But I don't know. Honestly my Catholic guilt is a very nuanced thing for me. (But, yes... It is most certainly a thing.)


There's a good exercise you can do to help this along where you imagine yourself as another person, then imagine you thinking that about you (as the other person). You begin to realise how unfair it is, and how you wouldn't think that way about another person, then it gradually helps you gain a more objective view of yourself (if not objective, a more balanced view). It was something I did when I was coming out of severe depression/low self-esteem and it seemed to help a bit.


----------



## 68097

laurie17 said:


> There's a good exercise you can do to help this along where you imagine yourself as another person, then imagine you thinking that about you (as the other person). You begin to realise how unfair it is, and how you wouldn't think that way about another person, then it gradually helps you gain a more objective view of yourself (if not objective, a more balanced view). It was something I did when I was coming out of severe depression/low self-esteem and it seemed to help a bit.


That is some of the best advice I've ever heard in my life.

Regarding the earlier question about guilt -- I do have some of it, in terms of feeling guilty because I'm not perfect, or I waste too much of my time on frivolous things, and am not always kind, but ... I'm not Catholic. 

I actually think guilt might be an Ennegram 1 trait -- I MUST BE PERFECT.

Only in my case, I must be perfect so that OTHER PEOPLE LIKE ME (Fe) and so I'm not letting God down.

But... you can't let God down, can you? I mean, if He knows what you're going to do before you do it, technically you can't shock him by doing it. "Let down" implies some higher standard of expectation than the reality, which He wouldn't have if He knew you inside and out. Right? 

That is the kind of crap that cycles through my brain on a regular basis. Over-think much?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> There's a good exercise you can do to help this along where you imagine yourself as another person, then imagine you thinking that about you (as the other person). You begin to realise how unfair it is, and how you wouldn't think that way about another person, then it gradually helps you gain a more objective view of yourself (if not objective, a more balanced view). It was something I did when I was coming out of severe depression/low self-esteem and it seemed to help a bit.


I don't know, it's weird because I know I'm a person I would immediately love, I love people like me... but it's different, knowing who I actually am. 

I have a hard time doing that (thank you for the advice, I hope it helps others, but for me I've been there tried that it hasn't worked), but I do sometimes lightly disassociate to see myself as a character, a book character usually (I once made an elaborate fantasy story to deal with my trauma) or, more recently, a movie character. I think if how people would ympathize with me if my story was presented through a different lens, and... Silly as it is, that comforts me. Thinking if myself as another person kind of confuses me (sorry), but that is one of my coping mechanisms, zooming out and thinking about myself in a different way similar to what you're describing.


----------



## Tad Cooper




----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> It's a good book, but very, very similar to Watership Down (except much less detailed).
> 
> I thought ISFJ because he seems to remain very open for a long time, then eventually comes to a judgement about the right thing to do, which is based on what would be best for the group. I'm not really sure why he doesn't come across as ESFJ to me... He also seems potentially enneagram 9w1.


It's kind of funny then, because right now I feel like I'm an ISFJ 9w1 and I've always been put off my Hazel. Maybe I recognized myself too much in him, maybe he's such a male form of those traits I couldn't relate, maybe it's just my typical discontent for leader figures. Maybe I'm mistyped. Hmm. 

Se could make sense for him, except... He's not an ESTP, and he's certainly not an ISTP. Si actually does fit well. He believes Fiver because Fiver has proved right and right again. Si counterpart to Fiver's Ni, no?

I'm not sure if Fiver would be INTJ or INFJ though. I would think INTJ, because I don't see much Fe, but I don't see much Fi either. Hmmmm.


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> It's kind of funny then, because right now I feel like I'm an ISFJ 9w1 and I've always been put off my Hazel. Maybe I recognized myself too much in him, maybe he's such a male form of those traits I couldn't relate, maybe it's just my typical discontent for leader figures. Maybe I'm mistyped. Hmm.
> 
> Se could make sense for him, except... He's not an ESTP, and he's certainly not an ISTP. Si actually does fit well. He believes Fiver because Fiver has proved right and right again. Si counterpart to Fiver's Ni, no?
> 
> I'm not sure if Fiver would be INTJ or INFJ though. I would think INTJ, because I don't see much Fe, but I don't see much Fi either. Hmmmm.


Im surprised you didnt like hazel, but then he's a bit archetypal in many ways so maybe that didnt help? I kind of liked him, but preferred Bigwig (I think ESTJ - me and @laurie17 discussed it and think Woundwurt is a negative ESTJ and is what Bigwig could have become if he'd been evil). 
Fiver seems INTJ to me, maybe Ni-Fi loop if there is one.


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> That is some of the best advice I've ever heard in my life.
> 
> Regarding the earlier question about guilt -- I do have some of it, in terms of feeling guilty because I'm not perfect, or I waste too much of my time on frivolous things, and am not always kind, but ... I'm not Catholic.
> 
> I actually think guilt might be an Ennegram 1 trait -- I MUST BE PERFECT.
> 
> Only in my case, I must be perfect so that OTHER PEOPLE LIKE ME (Fe) and so I'm not letting God down.
> 
> But... you can't let God down, can you? I mean, if He knows what you're going to do before you do it, technically you can't shock him by doing it. "Let down" implies some higher standard of expectation than the reality, which He wouldn't have if He knew you inside and out. Right?
> 
> That is the kind of crap that cycles through my brain on a regular basis. Over-think much?


I hope the idea was useful :happy:

I think all enneagram types have a certain level of guilt, but type 1 is probably the most renowned for it, mostly because it doesn't withdraw from it.

I think the god example is a sort of never-ending circle of contemplation you could get stuck in for a long time. It might be fun though.




alittlebear said:


> I don't know, it's weird because I know I'm a person I would immediately love, I love people like me... but it's different, knowing who I actually am.
> 
> I have a hard time doing that (thank you for the advice, I hope it helps others, but for me I've been there tried that it hasn't worked), but I do sometimes lightly disassociate to see myself as a character, a book character usually (I once made an elaborate fantasy story to deal with my trauma) or, more recently, a movie character. I think if how people would sympathize with me if my story was presented through a different lens, and... Silly as it is, that comforts me. Thinking if myself as another person kind of confuses me (sorry), but that is one of my coping mechanisms, zooming out and thinking about myself in a different way similar to what you're describing.


That kind of disassociation was something I did a lot when I was younger and under a lot of stress (my mental illness, mental illness in the family, bullying, hating school etc. etc.) and it does help. I actually started writing to combat anxiety because it kept my mind focused on one thing which wasn't related to my real-life issues (kind of the ultimate form of escapism, even moreso than reading sometimes). It's a good way of dealing with stress, I think, even if some people think it's unhealthy.





alittlebear said:


> It's kind of funny then, because right now I feel like I'm an ISFJ 9w1 and I've always been put off my Hazel. Maybe I recognized myself too much in him, maybe he's such a male form of those traits I couldn't relate, maybe it's just my typical discontent for leader figures. Maybe I'm mistyped. Hmm.
> 
> Se could make sense for him, except... He's not an ESTP, and he's certainly not an ISTP. Si actually does fit well. He believes Fiver because Fiver has proved right and right again. Si counterpart to Fiver's Ni, no?
> 
> I'm not sure if Fiver would be INTJ or INFJ though. I would think INTJ, because I don't see much Fe, but I don't see much Fi either. Hmmmm.


I actually liked Hazel a lot (probably my favourite character). I can't really see Se for him - he doesn't really judge things as he does them, but will judge before, mostly based on how much it would affect the group.

I think Fiver is INTJ, purely because he seems to use both Ni and Fi (he basically says he'll go off on his own near the beginning, leaving the others behind).




tine said:


> Im surprised you didnt like hazel, but then he's a bit archetypal in many ways so maybe that didnt help? I kind of liked him, but preferred Bigwig (I think ESTJ - me and @_laurie17_ discussed it and think Woundwurt is a negative ESTJ and is what Bigwig could have become if he'd been evil).
> Fiver seems INTJ to me, maybe Ni-Fi loop if there is one.


Yes, I definitely think Bigwig and Woundwurt are ESTJs (I thought possibly ESFJ for Bigwig for a while, but no he uses Te-Fi).


----------



## fair phantom

Most Disney never traumatized me, even though it did make me feel sad, it wasn't any worse than the fairytales I read...with the possible exception of Dumbo. I don't like to watch Dumbo. But yeah, I take issue with Disney more for the emotional manipulation than the fact that sad things happen. I don't think all Disney is emotionally manipulative (not more than more writing anyway), but some of it....

Maybe one reason I love _Tangled_ so much is no dead parents. The pain Rapunzel must overcome is less cliche, and more relatable (for me).

Nick had some great shows when I was a kid that had humour _and_ heart: _Doug_, _Rugrats_, _Hey Arnold_, _Clarissa Explains it All_, _The Secret World of Alex Mack_, and my favourite: _Pete & Pete_, but a lot of the more recent stuff does appear to be sophomoric, rude, shallow, and mean-spirited.

(I also loved the original run of _Are You Afraid of the Dark?_ but that is a different category of show).


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> And ex-Catholic. _So_ much guilt. I think there are some American Catholics on this thread? Do you guys have the whole feel-guilty-about-everything going on, or is it just some weird Australian thing?


I think I have a better sense of proportion now, but I used to have serious issues with guilt. I'd exaggerate every little thing that I did wrong to the point where I thought I was a worthless awful sinner. Very hard on myself. (in therapy I learned to do what @laurie17 suggested and it does help). However I don't know if that was so much the Catholicism as other things (including Enneagram 4 w/ connections to 1). At least when I was a practicing Catholic there was the sacrament of Reconciliation. I always felt so much better afterwards...for a little while.


----------



## Gman1

alittlebear said:


> It's kind of funny then, because right now I feel like I'm an ISFJ 9w1 and I've always been put off my Hazel. Maybe I recognized myself too much in him, maybe he's such a male form of those traits I couldn't relate, maybe it's just my typical discontent for leader figures. Maybe I'm mistyped. Hmm.
> 
> Se could make sense for him, except... He's not an ESTP, and he's certainly not an ISTP. Si actually does fit well. He believes Fiver because Fiver has proved right and right again. Si counterpart to Fiver's Ni, no?
> 
> I'm not sure if Fiver would be INTJ or INFJ though. I would think INTJ, because I don't see much Fe, but I don't see much Fi either. Hmmmm.


I love that film. Especially when the black rabbit comes to collect him at the end.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

agwood said:


> I love that film. Especially when the black rabbit comes to collect him at the end.


I cried for literally two hours when I read that part. Good thing I was alone at the time.


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> @fair phantom,you seem more Ti/Fe(in some order),said it before I believe but I'm saying it again.So I guess ENTP is not too far off :laughing:
> @Oswin,you definitely ISFJ?


I'm definitely SFJ. Not 100% though. Just confused about the order of Ti and Ne.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> Living dead said:
> 
> 
> 
> @fair phantom,you seem more Ti/Fe(in some order),said it before I believe but I'm saying it again.So I guess ENTP is not too far off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Oswin,you definitely ISFJ?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm definitely SFJ. Not 100% though. Just confused about the order of Ti and Ne.
Click to expand...


Are you SURE you're an Fe user?!


----------



## 68097

INFP could explain why her Si/Ne is so strong that they kind of blend together...

(Sorry, Oswin, for speaking OF you instead of TO you. Heh.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I can see @Oswin being an Fi-dominant. Fi that is smooth and surrounding, different from how Ne buzzes out of @TelepathicGoose. Judging dominant, not extroverted perceiving. 

Her videos always seemed very INFP to me. Not sure if I ever said that openly before, but... yeah.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> INFP could explain why her Si/Ne is so strong that they kind of blend together...
> 
> (Sorry, Oswin, for speaking OF you instead of TO you. Heh.)


My apologies as well ^^


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> But... is Oswin an introvert? What she just described sounds like Ne-dom to me, though I guess it could be Ne-aux.


I think it can be Ne-aux.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I can see @_Oswin_ being an Fi-dominant. Fi that is smooth and surrounding, different from how Ne buzzes out of @_TelepathicGoose_. Judging dominant, not extroverted perceiving.
> 
> Her videos always seemed very INFP to me. *Not sure if I ever said that openly before, but... yeah.*


This is the problem. Is it an Fe problem?

_Honesty!_


----------



## Persephone Soul

Dude! I have been saying this from the get-go! Like from the beginning. And never saw SJ.... NP! I think NFP , but bec she seemed so convinced of Fe, I thought NTP could fit!

Like I said. I see Ne. Intuition. No one is listening lol


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> This is the problem. Is it an Fe problem?
> 
> _Honesty!_


Partially Fe - go with majority opinion - but also I have a hard time trusting my judgment, and I was having an especially hard time when we started this whole Typing Community thing, back when we were just getting started on threads like Oswin's. 

I am curious, though... What makes you say she gives you an Fi vibe? I agree a little, but I'm still wondering where you see it.


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> Dude! I have been saying this from the get-go! NP! I think ENFP , but bec she seemed so convinced of Fe, I thought ENTP could fit!
> 
> Like I said. I see Ne. Intuition. No one is listening lol


Oh, come on. You're not alone :tongue:


----------



## Persephone Soul

SugarPlum said:


> oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> living dead said:
> 
> 
> 
> but wouldn't group behaviour be influenced by social anxiety,shyness,etc.?
> Like,i used to be very quiet in groups when i was younger just because i felt ignored and i felt stupid about just talking,i wanted people to make me talk
> 
> 
> 
> same here. I always wanted people to make me talk. Is that extroversion or introversion??
> 
> Also...what is this 'overstimulation' people speak of? This is one of the reasons i originally thought extroversion. Never been overstimulated, not once. In a continual state of understimulation.
> 
> I notice it if i'm like...walking with my mother through a mall or city or something. I'm slowly getting more and more excited because like, people! Smells! Sights! Things one could buy or could not buy! Yet she's winding down like a mechanical toy.
> 
> (that said...i have some friends i have deemed introverts, my 'infp' friend for instance, if we go for a mall we will probably both get more and more happy and start coming up with stupider and stupider ideas and start acting on them)
> 
> if i'm walking through a mall by myself...i'm more likely to buy stuff i don't need, if i see cute guys maybe i'll go sit near them and hope they'll approach me, maybe i'll do imaginary shopping on my own, like pretend to be looking for something specific for a fictional character, but after a while i'll bored and go elsewhere
> 
> i kinda love malls; this one's my favorite:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one in portland's ok (it has an ice-skating rink)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh, and there's this mall in moscow but i once abandoned a stray dog who was following me outside it so my si associates it with _the worst thing i ever had to do_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyways, tbh i'd rather go to a mall than a museum, i mean if i'm travelling through a city i'll go to a museum, not the mall, but i'll enjoy the mall more, the main thing i like about museums is imagining i am going through them with some fictional characters, or really pretending i can look into the past, or hoping i will meet some handsome stranger there, or something. Actually, i love museums. The right museums.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, does any of this point to extrovert vs introvert?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> enp -_-
> 
> I dont know whyyyyy, you just seem to have Ne/Si Te/Fi to me!
> 
> but you seem set on Fe.... and high Si. So blahhh, ISFJ I would say. Group harmony just doesnt seem like your main focus. I may be wrong.
> 
> idk, carry on lol...
Click to expand...

Oswin...?


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> @Oswin: you strike me an extrovert.
> 
> I can handle being out and about for awhile and then, like your mother, I wind down and want to go home. And read a book. Or pet my cat. Or put the stuff I bought away. But, I've noticed the extroverts in my life getting more and more wound up around other people and out doing things, so much so that they go from one outing straight into the next.
> 
> I can socialize for awhile, even for a long while, but I feel completely drained the next day. It's very taxing on my aux-Fe.


Hm, really? I can socialize with loads of energy for hours on end, go home, do some things until I get tired, go online for a while, sleep, wake up and be fine the next day. 

And reading? I don't really have the concentration to read like I used to. I try my hardest to read as best as I can, then I get drained after a while and lost. More so with non fiction, though. I can read articles fine, and short books, just not heaps of information. I need to take a load of breaks when I read. 

I can sit through, and follow movies fine. I think they are more stimulating than books, and easier to follow, especially with plots. 

In short, I hate being own my own too long, thinking too much, doing low energy solitary activities, and being easily bored. I have to do be doing something or another. I need some outside stimuli, more than inner. Yes, inner is good and relaxing, but I guess it depends on the person.

I think I might be extroverted also, actually.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Partially Fe - go with majority opinion - but also I have a hard time trusting my judgment, and I was having an especially hard time when we started this whole Typing Community thing, back when we were just getting started on threads like Oswin's.
> 
> I am curious, though... What makes you say she gives you an Fi vibe? I agree a little, but I'm still wondering where you see it.


I can't give you specific examples. I simply don't recall them. She's said things in the past that struck me as Fi, and when I first watched one of her typing videos, I thought INFP.

I could be wrong, but now we have an NP in the mix to help sort things out :tongue:


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude! I have been saying this from the get-go! NP! I think ENFP , but bec she seemed so convinced of Fe, I thought ENTP could fit!
> 
> Like I said. I see Ne. Intuition. No one is listening lol
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, come on. You're not alone
Click to expand...

You have been too, Shiny?! Well, geez. Seems like. No brainer, huh?

What convinced you, Oswin of SFJ?


----------



## Dangerose

(Sorry if I'm not responding quickly; my computer might be on its last legs...having to restart every few minutes...  )
Anyways, thinking...


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> You have been too, Shiny?! Well, geez. Seems like. No brainer, huh?
> 
> What convinced you, Oswin of SFJ?


I admit, when you're one of the few saying "BUT IT'S THIS!" and everyone says otherwise, you can only take so much before giving up :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin Weird question I know, but what American Girls did you most like? I remember there were a few you liked that I didn't feel the same about and vice versa. (One cannot be typed solely by this - I love Kaya and she's like _the_ ESTP - but it could give a better understanding of feeling/thinking functions... to me, at least.)


I think Samantha was my favorite because she was the prettiest and I liked 1904 as a time period and I loved the story where she went out to the woods and made a wonderland and the gingerbread houses, and I liked her poor friend too, I also just liked Victorian (or slightly post-Victorian) values and social thingies...
But Felicity was originally my favorite, maybe because she was the first, I liked the independence and the horses and her friend Elizabeth
And I also loved Kit, particularly her typewriter thing and all the ways to save money, like eating dandelion greens and such)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> (Sorry if I'm not responding quickly; my computer might be on its last legs...having to restart every few minutes...  )
> Anyways, thinking...



I think you and I had the same problem really. xSFJ vs xNFP. ESFJ vs INFP seems to be the most legitimate due to the mashing of the Ne and Si. I however have always thought your Ne is higher. Then that leaves the Fi vs Fe. I say Fi. I say ENFP. You are prob like me in socionics. An ENFP - Fi


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have been too, Shiny?! Well, geez. Seems like. No brainer, huh?
> 
> What convinced you, Oswin of SFJ?
> 
> 
> 
> I admit, when you're one of the few saying "BUT IT'S THIS!" and everyone says otherwise, you can only take so much before giving up
Click to expand...


Yup. That was what was happening (almost with me). Everyone said ESFJ. I was so thankful for everyones help, but it just did not resonate. That is why I backed away,before I agreed with something just because I was tired of disagreeing, when it it isn't accurate.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> You have been too, Shiny?! Well, geez. Seems like. No brainer, huh?
> 
> What convinced you, Oswin of SFJ?


I'm not sure right now. I relate to some Si things like looking for security and liking the idea of an eternal world, looking for phyisical perfection, nostalgia, objects taking on mythological status, some other such things
I've always been less sure about the judging functions but Fe mostly because I care a lot of what people think of me, can fall fairly easily into snobbiness or some typical Fe behavior, as previously discussed (way back on this thread, you wouldn't have seen) some pathetic things like buying affection, also being very controlling and such
I relate to some Fi things too so it could go either way


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Hm, really? I can socialize with loads of energy for hours on end, go home, do some things until I get tired, go online for a while, sleep, wake up and be fine the next day.
> 
> And reading? I don't really have the concentration to read like I used to. I try my hardest to read as best as I can, then I get drained after a while and lost. More so with non fiction, though. I can read articles fine, and short books, just not heaps of information. I need to take a load of breaks when I read.
> 
> I can sit through, and follow movies fine. I think they are more stimulating than books, and easier to follow, especially with plots.
> 
> In short, I hate being own my own too long, thinking too much, doing low energy solitary activities, and being easily bored. I have to do be doing something or another. I need some outside stimuli, more than inner. Yes, inner is good and relaxing, but I guess it depends on the person.
> *
> I think I might be extroverted also, actually*.


You think? 

I read less than I used to. I can devour nonfiction and biographies with no problem, but a lot of fiction doesn't hold my active interest. I tend to multi-task. Right now, I'm haunting the forum and watching television at the same time. Not that I'm processing much of it...

I waffle on ESFJ/ISFJ for myself sometimes, but I dunno anymore.


----------



## Dangerose

(p.s. keep talking about me and ask questions, I may not be able to get to it immediately due to the impossible slowness of the computer but I will asap)

Can we consider NTP? ENTP?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat Avatar change?


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat Avatar change?


Gretel, from Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters. Felt in a Gemma Arterton mood.


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> You think?
> 
> I read less than I used to. I can devour nonfiction and biographies with no problem, but a lot of fiction doesn't hold my active interest. I tend to multi-task. Right now, I'm haunting the forum and watching television at the same time. Not that I'm processing much of it...
> 
> I waffle on ESFJ/ISFJ for myself sometimes, but I dunno anymore.


Yeah, I think so too. To be honest, going out and doing things energizes me a lot more nowadays than reading does. I multitask a lot sometimes. I try to process things, but a lot of it is in autopilot, lol. It'll all come back to me the next day. Or something. My long term memory is amazing.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, I think so too. To be honest, going out and doing things energizes me a lot more nowadays than reading does. I multitask a lot sometimes. I try to process things, but a lot of it is in autopilot, lol. It'll all come back to me the next day. Or something. My long term memory is amazing.


I never saw introvert. Still Si in there, of course.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> (p.s. keep talking about me and ask questions, I may not be able to get to it immediately due to the impossible slowness of the computer but I will asap)
> 
> Can we consider NTP? ENTP?


Yes! Here is why.... I actually think your feeling function is lower. I highly doubt INFP. I actually would see ESTJ more than ESFJ ifffff we were talking SJ still. But I mentioned ENTP on your original thread. I think it is more likely than ESFJ, buuut I still seem ENFP with a high Te actually. Your ability to go live in another country, is throwing caution to the wind, yet inferior Si made you homesick


----------



## Dangerose

@LuchoIsLurking I think you are either ESFJ or ESTJ. Oddly, not sure which.


----------



## 68097

Introvert/Extrovert: 

(Sorry, derailing and swinging it around to me, but ... oh, well.)

I don't know how it was for anyone else, but I grew up homeschooled, in the country, with only my brother to play with. I didn't spend much time around people other than my family. I was accustomed to entertaining myself, to reading a lot of books, to watching my favorite movies, etc. I didn't think much about socializing other than being delighted when I could have a friend or friends over for a few hours. (Even so, in true Fe fashion, I felt bad about my parents having to drive them home, since it was ... well, a fair few miles back and forth.)

Then, I discovered the internet and livejournal. I became very active on it, got used to a lot of socialization online -- it kind of either really turned on my Fe or super-charged it, and I got more reliant on needing interaction with others to be happy. I fell in with some extroverts, and lost a lot of my natural concentration, so now I'm stuck in a rut of being easily bored, needing external stimulation, trying things out and discarding them, and multi-tasking. 

Yet, when I moved out and lived on my own, I tried to make friends -- and didn't really mesh with anyone, so I gave up and went back to my online friends. Now, most of them have petered away (real life?) and I feel ... alone, or under-stimulated by people.

So, I don't know. I can't see myself as a typical Fe-dom in the sense that when given the chance to socialize, I tried and then quit and went home and back to my books and movies and computer, rather than find another place and try -- but am I just an awkward Fe-dom who is under-socialized, or an ISFJ whose Fe/Ne got super-charged at one point and hasn't dialed back down yet. I really hate being the center of attention, but I also hate being totally ignored.

Ludo ... yeah, you strike me as an extrovert. 
@Oswin ... I wouldn't rule out ENTP, no.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Yes! Here is why.... I actually think your feeling function is lower. I highly doubt INFP. I actually would see ESTJ more than ESFJ ifffff we were talking SJ still. But I mentioned ENTP on your original thread. I think it is more likely than ESFJ, buuut I still seem ENFP with a high Te actually. Your ability to go live in another country, is throwing caution to the wind, yet inferior Si made you homesick


I'm kinda buying your analysis. (You know, I almost was going to go volunteer in Ghana this month...now I'm at home and bored, but that would have been a really sudden decision)

Leaning ENxP. 
I'm wondering if my unhealthy Fe things that made me go for ISFJ over ESFJ could be unhealthy tertiary or possibly inferior Fe things??

Any thoughts, anyone?


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> I'm kinda buying your analysis. (You know, I almost was going to go volunteer in Ghana this month...now I'm at home and bored, but that would have been a really sudden decision)
> 
> Leaning ENxP.
> I'm wondering if my unhealthy Fe things that made me go for ISFJ over ESFJ could be unhealthy tertiary or possibly inferior Fe things??
> 
> Any thoughts, anyone?


I sometimes think we should just ... do it. Go for it. Don't over think it. Just get on a plane. I'm often for it, but then I fall back and over-think it and decide not to go on mission trips or whatever. 

You said your Fe was kind of lousy, but so was your Te. Do you feel like your Ti is strong? Are you able to argue pure logic without it tiring you out after awhile?


----------



## Dangerose

(For the record, @angelcat, I would guess ESFJ for you. People don't just magically develop Fe skills if they're not given the opportunity to develop them and I think the isolation would cause you to develop Ti a little stronger)


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> I'm kinda buying your analysis. (You know, I almost was going to go volunteer in Ghana this month...now I'm at home and bored, but that would have been a really sudden decision)
> 
> Leaning ENxP.
> I'm wondering if my unhealthy Fe things that made me go for ISFJ over ESFJ could be unhealthy tertiary or possibly inferior Fe things??
> 
> Any thoughts, anyone?


Hmm, the reason I'm unsure about I/E is that I know an INFP who would love to drop everything and do her own thing. (She helps support her family at the moment.) She mentioned she likes having an ENTP as her best friend because he wouldn't stop her if she wanted to randomly leave one day. I'm fairly sure she's Fi-dom.

Maybe it's low Fe after all, or possibly self-esteem?


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> I never saw introvert. Still Si in there, of course.


Really? So, then the Legend of Lucho was correct? 


Oswin said:


> @LuchoIsLurking I think you are either ESFJ or ESTJ. Oddly, not sure which.


Hm, I am starting to doubt Te-Dom a lot. I am starting to think Te is like my 8th function... the devilish role. I become quite destructive when I use it.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> I'm kinda buying your analysis. (You know, I almost was going to go volunteer in Ghana this month...now I'm at home and bored, but that would have been a really sudden decision)
> 
> Leaning ENxP.
> I'm wondering if my unhealthy Fe things that made me go for ISFJ over ESFJ could be unhealthy tertiary or possibly inferior Fe things??
> 
> Any thoughts, anyone?


It may not be anything regarding cognitive functions (since that type supposedly doesn't change) but a result of something growing up. Have you ever looked into things like attachment styles?

I have trouble seeing ENTP for you. But I feel like when it comes to mbti/myers briggs/jung that the ground is constantly shifting beneath me so it is hard to speak.

@angelcat I sometimes wonder if I just went too long having strained socialization that I could be an extrovert that lacks the knowhow. I find it pretty easy to be social online and seek out social engagement through social media (originally, yes, it was LJ!)


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> (For the record, @angelcat, I would guess ESFJ for you. People don't just magically develop Fe skills if they're not given the opportunity to develop them and I think the isolation would cause you to develop Ti a little stronger)


Part of me thinks you could be right. I'm not sure how much I like it, though. LOL


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat Thank you for sharing. And please do not feel bad for "derailing and swinging it around" to you. This is a typing thread at this point, and as someone who is in between about your type, you have every right to bring up your personal typing questions. 

I'm not sure how my input could help, since I'm in the xSFJ category at this point too. 

I didn't grow up homeschooled, but I was only allowed to see my cousins outside of school. My best moments growing up were playing with my cousin or working on a project. Or both. Or holding puppies. When I would go to my cousins' houses, I was the one who always had to be torn away, and my parents had to teach me the value of "having time apart". (One of my cousins I am actually convinced is an ISFJ - just like Noah from The Notebook, honestly, _just like him_ - and he was my closest companion growing up. We would get so absorbed in the stories we made up with each other. Being older, I think he only got annoyed with me, but my other cousin [who I think is an ISTP] absolutely needed his alone time whenever he could get a breath away from me. Still does. Love him too <3)

But I wonder about my extroversion, too... Because I loved school. I loved interacting with others there. I couldn't get enough of it. And I absolutely _could not _ interact with anyone outside my family outside of school, even up to last year...not by choice, but by external factors. So what does that say about me?

I bring this up because it sounds the same with you. 

I waffle about what the internet and Internet interaction says about introversion/extroversion. I know so many introverts who _need_ social media and pour their hearts out on it (even more than I do!). I've seen a post about how social media can be the best thing for introverts, social wise, and I can see the truth in that. But what about extroverts? Extroverts who have no other way to channel their extroversion other than to come online?

I just don't know. I think it's an interesting topic, but not one I have a settled opinion on at this point. 

Now it's my turn to apologize for making this about me, but I do relate to what you're saying. You come across as ISFJ to me - partially because your Ti is so strong, and partially because you've asserted yourself as such and I am one to trust one's own perceptions - but I don't know for sure. I've said in the past that you have strong Ne, but I think your Ne is unique in its focus and that it would make sense for an ISFJ's Ne to be as developed as yours is given how you are and your age.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Hmm, the reason I'm unsure about I/E is that I know an INFP who would love to drop everything and do her own thing. (She helps support her family at the moment.) She mentioned she likes having an ENTP as her best friend because he wouldn't stop her if she wanted to randomly leave one day. I'm fairly sure she's Fi-dom.


Hm, my big thing I want from people is that they _will_ stop me if I want to randomly leave one day! Does that say anything?


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> Oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm kinda buying your analysis. (You know, I almost was going to go volunteer in Ghana this month...now I'm at home and bored, but that would have been a really sudden decision)
> 
> Leaning ENxP.
> I'm wondering if my unhealthy Fe things that made me go for ISFJ over ESFJ could be unhealthy tertiary or possibly inferior Fe things??
> 
> Any thoughts, anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, the reason I'm unsure about I/E is that I know an INFP who would love to drop everything and do her own thing. (She helps support her family at the moment.) She mentioned she likes having an ENTP as her best friend because he wouldn't stop her if she wanted to randomly leave one day. I'm fairly sure she's Fi-dom.
> 
> Maybe it's low Fe after all, or possibly self-esteem?
Click to expand...

I just dont see F dom. I see her opinions on things more T relevant vs F. Like on your FB, Oswin. I see T and N. Ne for sure. But some def stability of T. Even your opinionated posts, aren't overly judgmental nor are they emotional diarrhea. I see NO F dominance at all.

not sure if my posts have spoke to you on FB, but they seem way more emotionally based. But then again, my life is a huge shit storm right now. Lol


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> I sometimes think we should just ... do it. Go for it. Don't over think it. Just get on a plane. I'm often for it, but then I fall back and over-think it and decide not to go on mission trips or whatever.
> 
> You said your Fe was kind of lousy, but so was your Te. Do you feel like your Ti is strong? Are you able to argue pure logic without it tiring you out after awhile?


I'm unsure; how can I assess strong Ti usage? I'll get into long debates with people, not sure if it's pure logic though, could be Ti or Fi I'm using, I think...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Not that I don't see @angelcat as Margaery Tyrell. I totally do. But I don't know. ISFJ form of Margaery Tyrell??? I don't know. Something like that. Margaery Tyrell - Cinderella - something else Hybrid.

Edit: Oh! And Rory Gilmore. Of course. I don't know her much, but she certainly influences the flow of how I see Angelcat. 

(Sorry for speaking of you but I wasn't sure how to say the post matter otherwise.)


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Hm, my big thing I want from people is that they _will_ stop me if I want to randomly leave one day! Does that say anything?


Hm, it depends. With her, it's about following a dream. She doesn't want anyone to stop her from pursuing that dream. When it comes to everyday relationships and friendships, she does care if someone doesn't show any interest. I think everyone wants to feel wanted or missed by the people they care about, at least to some degree. But when it comes to having a bigger vision for your life, it's important to have people in your life that support your vision and don't try to keep you around just for themselves.


----------



## Dangerose

Oswin said:


> Normal human beings tend to have a clear motivation if they re going to kill another human.
> even if it's a stupid reason like "I want their money" or "I am jealous of them"
> Having a morbid fascination with death and killing to satisfy sexual urges or out of some feeling of sport or compulsion is not normal.
> 
> nothing keeps me up at night like serial killers.


I feel like the gif in my signature gave that last sentence a meaning I did not intend
considering the dude's Death, too)


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> That makes sense. I should have been more clear myself. I honestly was exaggerating my "she isn't Fe dom" point, and regarding Fi dom... her topics just dont seem very emotionally based. As in the content. Like I will post things that pull MY heart strings. .. very emotionally based. I'm sure she knows what I am saying lol.
> 
> Anyway, I will say this... if she is high Fi, its Fi. So I guess we essentially agree in that aspect. There is no way its high Fe. (Imo)


But what do you mean about emotionally based content?


----------



## Fuzzystorm

Oswin said:


> (Serial killers scare me so much. Because they don't even act like normal human beings. Don't get me started on serial killers oh my gosh. *The creepiest thing is that, they really exist, they could be your next-door neighbor, people even marry serial killers without ever knowing...)*


That to me has always been the most unnerving. We watched an extended news feature on the BTK killer in class a few years ago; his wife and two kids never suspected a thing before he was caught. I can't even begin to imagine the shock of finding out that the person who _raised_ you was among the most godforsaken scum of the earth. Also that he was a regular volunteer for his church and had a job installing security alarms in people's homes before he was caught... really makes you face the unsettling fact that it could be *anyone*.

Plus the fact that they rarely have any clear motive... one just has to wonder _WHY?_ And it terrifies me to think that oftentimes there simply is no answer.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Once this round of typing questions clears up, would you all mind taking this personality quiz? It was posted I an NF forum, and I haven't retaken it yet but I am interested how others test on it. (We don't have to do it now, just... later, you know.)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Hey angelcat (my phone won't let me tag)... didnt you say that you knew you had inferior Ne? Do you think you could have inferior Ti even though its so developed?


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> RIGHT? Do you have room on that ship for a first mate? I think we shall be friends lol


Come aboard, friend!


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> Once this round of typing questions clears up, would you all mind taking this personality quiz? It was posted I an NF forum, and I haven't retaken it yet but I am interested how others test on it. (We don't have to do it now, just... later, you know.)


absolutely.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Once this round of typing questions clears up, would you all mind taking this personality quiz? It was posted I an NF forum, and I haven't retaken it yet but I am interested how others test on it. (We don't have to do it now, just... later, you know.)


I don't see any link...?


----------



## Rebel Sheep

alittlebear said:


> Once this round of typing questions clears up, would you all mind taking this personality quiz? It was posted I an NF forum, and I haven't retaken it yet but I am interested how others test on it. (We don't have to do it now, just... later, you know.)


No link, am disappoint Berry


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Once this round of typing questions clears up, would you all mind taking this personality quiz? It was posted I an NF forum, and I haven't retaken it yet but I am interested how others test on it. (We don't have to do it now, just... later, you know.)


Sure!


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Once this round of typing questions clears up, would you all mind taking this personality quiz? It was posted I an NF forum, and I haven't retaken it yet but I am interested how others test on it. (We don't have to do it now, just... later, you know.)


I don't see a link; is it my computer or did you not post it?
should I fill out some sort of questionnaire or something to figure out my judging functions?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I was going to post it later, but I'll post it now. 

Register - Archetypes

It makes you register, it seems, but I don't think it sends you too much garbage besides. (Hope not.)


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> That makes sense. I should have been more clear myself. I honestly was exaggerating my "she isn't Fe dom" point, and regarding Fi dom... her topics just dont seem very emotionally based. As in the content. Like I will post things that pull MY heart strings. .. very emotionally based. I'm sure she knows what I am saying lol.
> 
> Anyway, I will say this... if she is high Fi, its Fi. So I guess we essentially agree in that aspect. There is no way its high Fe. (Imo)
> 
> 
> 
> But what do you mean about emotionally based content?
Click to expand...

Her posts (sorry oswin if I am over stepping my boundaries here!) are very whimsical. Bot about her emotions on anything. She is more factual even, yet still very much abstract. Her focus isnt on how things make her happy or sad. Its about ideas, opinions etc. But not from an emotional stand point. Me in contrast, everything i ever post about has to do with an emotion.. one way or another. 

Oswin, do you agree? How do you feel about my observation? I also dont see everything you put, and it IS social media... so yeah. I could be way off.


----------



## Rebel Sheep

46% Visionary
31% Intellectual
23% Spiritual

Which is interesting because I don't consider myself a very spiritual person at all.


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> RIGHT? Do you have room on that ship for a first mate? I think we shall be friends lol
> 
> 
> 
> Come aboard, friend!
Click to expand...


Ohoy, matie!


----------



## Fuzzystorm

alittlebear said:


> I was going to post it later, but I'll post it now.
> 
> Register - Archetypes
> 
> It makes you register, it seems, but I don't think it sends you too much garbage besides. (Hope not.)


^ 10 Minute Mail if no one wants to use their real address roud:


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I was going to post it later, but I'll post it now.
> 
> Register - Archetypes
> 
> It makes you register, it seems, but I don't think it sends you too much garbage besides. (Hope not.)


I got 53% spiritual, 26% caregiver, 21% intellectual

I didn't know how to answer to a lot of the questions though :/


----------



## Deadly Decorum

50% Intellectual
27% Visionary
23% Spirtual

...I'd like to be intellectual, but I wouldn't say I am.

Spiritual must be the love of relaxation, yoga, and the interest in Buddhism. I'm still learning more so I can implement the practices.

I do love me some incense tho... I'm trying to gain back my motivation to meditate <3


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Fuzzystorm said:


> ^ 10 Minute Mail if no one wants to use their real address roud:


That's helpful! Thank you. I also advise everyone to use false last names at least (I use a false name for everything ) 

Also, Fuzzystorm (I still have to answer your earlier message, I will try to PM you before mid month) I see you are at an Unknown type now? I won't pry, but if you wish to have your type discussed in the hopes of landing on your actual one please know that the thread is open to you as well (which of course I'm sure you know, but sometimes it helps to be reminded).


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> Her posts (sorry oswin if I am over stepping my boundaries here!) are very whimsical. Bot about her emotions on anything. She is more factual even, yet still very much abstract. *Her focus isnt on how things make her happy or sad. Its about ideas, opinions etc.* But not from an emotional stand point. Me in contrast, everything i ever post about has to do with an emotion.. one way or another.
> 
> Oswin, do you agree? How do you feel about my observation? I also dont see everything you put, and it IS social media... so yeah. I could be way off.


I don't see how that invalidates Fx-dom, though.

[Edit] 46% intellectual, 35% visionary, 19% caregiver.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Her posts (sorry oswin if I am over stepping my boundaries here!) are very whimsical. Bot about her emotions on anything. She is more factual even, yet still very much abstract. Her focus isnt on how things make her happy or sad. Its about ideas, opinions etc. But not from an emotional stand point. Me in contrast, everything i ever post about has to do with an emotion.. one way or another.
> 
> Oswin, do you agree? How do you feel about my observation? I also dont see everything you put, and it IS social media... so yeah. I could be way off.


I see what you mean, I think, I'm not sure how it would compare to other F-doms. if my computer were faster or the copy and paste tool worked I might put some of my posts up for analysis but it's a pipe-dream...
I really want to figure out if I use Ti or Fi, but how?))


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Thank you everyone for participating! I was glad it was shorter than I anticipated. 

My results


> 48% Caregiver
> Friendly, sincere, and compassionate, the Caregiver finds their reward in helping others. No one could ask for a better best friend.
> 
> 37% Spiritual
> The Spiritual seeks a deeper meaning. For them, the journey of faith is never-ending. Thoughtful and compassionate, they have a strong sense of moral obligation.
> 
> 15% Visionary
> Leave it to others to live by the status quo. The Visionary is interested in new ways of seeing, solutions not yet imagined, products not yet built.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Oswin you strike me as an SFJ... maybe not strongly I/E either way? You do have the passive quality I take note of in Si doms, though. You also have a very warm, calming and positive vibe to your posts, in a delightfully soothing, subdued way. They're nice to read. 

Luko does strike me as an extrovert, tbh.

I wonder if my long posts look extroverted, lol.

One interesting thing is excessive tabs bother me, unless I'm reading 200 articles or maybe watching youtube on the side. I focus on one forum at a time, though, and bounce back between two... but never ever post in more than one simultaneously.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> @_Oswin_ you strike me as an SFJ... maybe not strongly I/E either way? You do have the passive quality I take note of in Si doms, though. You also have a very warm, calming and positive vibe to your posts, in a delightfully soothing, subdued way. They're nice to read.


I don't see it, and I'm not sure I'd call ISTJs passive.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't see it, and I'm not sure I'd call ISTJs passive.


What would you call them, then?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> I see what you mean, I think, I'm not sure how it would compare to other F-doms. if my computer were faster or the copy and paste tool worked I might put some of my posts up for analysis but it's a pipe-dream...
> I really want to figure out if I use Ti or Fi, but how?))


Well, what is logic to you? What do you do with your logical thoughts?

It's place to start.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> What would you call them, then?


Hardworking, motivated, hands-on doesn't strike me as passive.


----------



## Fuzzystorm

45% Visionary
41% Intellectual
14% Advocate

This test was interesting! ^^



alittlebear said:


> That's helpful! Thank you. I also advise everyone to use false last names at least (I use a false name for everything )
> 
> Also, Fuzzystorm (I still have to answer your earlier message, I will try to PM you before mid month) I see you are at an Unknown type now? I won't pry, but if you wish to have your type discussed in the hopes of landing on your actual one please know that the thread is open to you as well (which of course I'm sure you know, but sometimes it helps to be reminded).


Take your time! And yeah, not really feeling the Ti-dom. Thanks so much for your welcoming words.  I'll probably post something once I consider it some more, gain a better understanding of the functions and think of a good starting point for my inquiries.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I really liked this one, actually! It really fit.

Spirituality 59%
Visionary 24%
Advocate 19%

Which types do you think correlate to these results?!


----------



## Dangerose

(Someone ask me questions that will help determine my judging functions)

I may have to go for a bit but I'll be back shortly; it gives you plenty of time to come up with questions


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Jung actually said this of Si:



> On the contrary, he may actually stand out by the very calmness and passivity of his demeanour, or by his rational self-control.


Perhaps rational self control better fits your views @shinynotshiny

As for me.... Rational self control? Ha. No. I definitely get told to stand up for myself... so funny when people online consider me outspoken. They've know idea who they're talking to. I can launch a massive debate on feminism... and then people irl say sexist things and I sink in my chair.

Of course I could be taking rational self control too literally here <3


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Perhaps rational self control better fits your views @_shinynotshiny_


Disagree on the meaning and implications of passivity. 

To clarify, rational self control > passive demeanor.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> I really liked this one, actually! It really fit.
> 
> Spirituality 59%
> Visionary 24%
> Advocate 19%
> 
> Which types do you think correlate to these results?!


That's actually why I was curious about the answers of others... I'm not sure they correlate much at all. Many people of different types (at least as shown on this thread) have been getting a few overlapping results. 

(Caretaker is pretty F, but )


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Well, what is logic to you? What do you do with your logical thoughts?
> 
> It's place to start.


Logic is figuring things out, building a chain and excluding or strengthening weak links, how things go without contradiction or error.
An example of bad logic is: Bears like honey, I like honey, therefore I'm a bear.
What do I do with my logical thoughts? I don't know. I ...talk about them, or work through them, or try to make them into something?
Is that Te?
Solving a Rubik's cube or similar puzzle would be an example of logic. Knowing how something works, mathematically and in principle.
I think.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Fuzzystorm said:


> 45% Visionary
> 41% Intellectual
> 14% Advocate
> 
> This test was interesting! ^^
> 
> 
> 
> Take your time! And yeah, not really feeling the Ti-dom. Thanks so much for your welcoming words.  I'll probably post something once I consider it some more, gain a better understanding of the functions and think of a good starting point for my inquiries.


Ah, that's interesting... because I sort of thought the same thing. I could see you as Ti, yet you also seemed to have that softness that they try to swallow. (They're still soft, but not with the strong and natural softness I see in you.)


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Her posts (sorry oswin if I am over stepping my boundaries here!) are very whimsical. Bot about her emotions on anything. She is more factual even, yet still very much abstract. *Her focus isnt on how things make her happy or sad. Its about ideas, opinions etc.* But not from an emotional stand point. Me in contrast, everything i ever post about has to do with an emotion.. one way or another.
> 
> Oswin, do you agree? How do you feel about my observation? I also dont see everything you put, and it IS social media... so yeah. I could be way off.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see how that invalidates Fx-dom, though.
> 
> [Edit] 46% intellectual, 35% visionary, 19% caregiver.
Click to expand...

Its a generalization. My own observation. My opinion. No biggie. If she said she were an F dom, then I wouldn't argue with her (I actually haven't this whole time lol). 

You seem very specific in details, Shiny. Like when someone generalizes or exaggerates, you tend to become very specific. This really reminds me of my ISTJ daughter. She takes everything I say literal, and argues it lol


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That's actually why I was curious about the answers of others... I'm not sure they correlate much at all. Many people of different types (at least as shown on this thread) have been getting a few overlapping results.
> 
> (Caretaker is pretty F, but )


I don't disagree with caregiver in my results. I lot of my Fi is about creating change that helps others.


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> Its a generalization. My own observation. My opinion. No biggie. If she said she were an F dom, then I wouldn't argue with her (I actually haven't this whole time lol).
> 
> You seen very specific in details, Shiny. Like when someone generalizes or exaggerates, you tend to become very specific. This really reminds me of my ISTJ daughter. She takes everything I say literal, and argue it lol


I think there's a fine line when we talk about "general."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't disagree with caregiver in my results. I lot of my Fi is about creating change that helps others.


Oh, I didn't see that you had gotten Caretaker. 

But that does further prove it that the test, while perhaps lightly insightful about what we value personally, does not have a strong correlation with MBTI.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Disagree on the meaning and implications of passivity.
> 
> To clarify, rational self control > passive demeanor.


I think what he means is that Si is disconnected from objective reality, so Si doms are not known for being initiative or taking much action in that regard. More placid about their environment, I suppose. Steady. I know I'm not the type to make much waves... unless I'm comfortable and no fucks are to be had.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> Oh, I didn't see that you had gotten Caretaker.
> 
> But that does further prove it that the test, while perhaps lightly insightful about what we value personally, does not have a strong correlation with MBTI.


Who says ISTJs cannot be caretakers?

I don't think the test correlates with MBTI/function types, no. But some of the questions felt like they had been inspired by Ni vs Ne (which does not mean they were engaged adequately, or that they even were. Perhaps I'm making parallels that do not exist).


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh, I didn't see that you had gotten Caretaker.
> 
> But that does further prove it that the test, while perhaps lightly insightful about what we value personally, does not have a strong correlation with MBTI.


You don't think your high caretaker goes along with your high Fe?

[Edit] Whether I'm ISTJ or INTJ doesn't matter. The fact is I have tertiary Fi and it's enough to make me care about those around me and supporting causes that help people, especially people who have shared my own experiences. The fact that caretaker is 19% seems about right to me in that sense. It doesn't overpower my greater motivations.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I think what he means is that Si is disconnected from objective reality, so Si doms are not known for being initiative or taking much action in that regard. More placid about their environment, I suppose. Steady. I know I'm not the type to make much waves... unless I'm comfortable and no fucks are to be had.


That doesn't sound like ISTJ, unless you mean inferior Ne.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> You don't think your high caretaker goes along with your high Fe?


Oh, it does - that was my first thought when I was taking the test, actually - but I don't know that the other results that we got are as indicative of function use.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Who says ISTJs cannot be caretakers?
> 
> I don't think the test correlates with MBTI/function types, no. But some of the questions felt like they had been inspired by Ni vs Ne (which does not mean they were engaged adequately, or that they even were. Perhaps I'm making parallels that do not exist).


I was not saying that ISTJs could not be caretakers, only that one would not expect that given their immediate Si/Te. 

I didn't see the Ni vs Ne you are referring to, but you could be not incorrect.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I was not saying that ISTJs could not be caretakers, only that one would not expect that given their immediate Si/Te.


There's also Fi?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> There's also Fi?


Yes, but... I'm trying to explain what I mean without my bad Ti making me say a bunch of simple sentences to make a simple point. Like, we all have an F function. I think a person of any type could get, for example, the Caretaker result, because they all have F somewhere in their stack. Some for, say the Visionary result, or the Intellectual result. We all have N, we all have T, and I don't think that getting both Visionary and Intellectual would make someone an NT necessarily. Does that make sense? Like you could test high and it say something about your lower function usage, but it would be incorrect to say that like you would be an Fi ego user because of your Caretaker result. 

I went around in circles but do you kind of get what I mean?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Yes, but... I'm trying to explain what I mean without my bad Ti making me say a bunch of simple sentences to make a simple point. Like, we all have an F function. I think a person of any type could get, for example, the Caretaker result, because they all have F somewhere in their stack. Some for, say the Visionary result, or the Intellectual result. We all have N, we all have T, and I don't think that getting both Visionary and Intellectual would make someone an NT necessarily. Does that make sense? Like you could test high and it say something about your lower function usage, but it would be incorrect to say that like you would be an Fi ego user because of your Caretaker result.
> 
> I went around in circles but do you kind of get what I mean?


I understand you, and I didn't realize you were talking about correlating each archetype to a specific function. You just dismissed the results as inaccurate because I got caretaker as my third archetype, which I don't feel supports or invalidates anything.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I understand you, and I didn't realize you were talking about correlating each archetype to a specific function. You just dismissed the results as inaccurate because I got caretaker as my third archetype, which I don't feel supports or invalidates anything.


Oh, no... I didn't mean to dismiss the results as inaccurate. (And especially not because of your results.) I _do_ think the results are accurate and telling about us as people and our motivations, as the test is designed to, but I do not think that they particularly correlate with functions / MBTI type.


----------



## fair phantom

40% Intellectual
The Intellectual is the ultimate dinner-party guest. Engaging questions and thoughtful debate are their trademarks.

35% Visionary
Leave it to others to live by the status quo. The Visionary is interested in new ways of seeing, solutions not yet imagined, products not yet built.

25% Caregiver
Friendly, sincere, and compassionate, the Caregiver finds their reward in helping others. No one could ask for a better best friend.

Tbh I asked my SO about the ones about what others go to me for or what they admire about me and I think he was wrong (if people came to me for companionship I would have more friends). So I'm not confident about these results.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh, no... I didn't mean to dismiss the results as inaccurate. (And especially not because of your results.) I _do_ think the results are accurate and telling about us as people and our motivations, as the test is designed to, but I do not think that they particularly correlate with functions / MBTI type.


I think there would be some kind of relationship to MBTI, but nothing so specific or literal as an archetype representing one function or type.


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> alittlebear said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, no... I didn't mean to dismiss the results as inaccurate. (And especially not because of your results.) I _do_ think the results are accurate and telling about us as people and our motivations, as the test is designed to, but I do not think that they particularly correlate with functions / MBTI type.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there would be some kind of relationship to MBTI, but nothing so specific or literal as an archetype representing one function or type.
Click to expand...


I agree. To some extent at least, I do feel they correlate. Like spiritually, visionary, and advocate read NF to me. Just my opinion though. Could be others.


----------



## 68097

@alittlebear: I've just always gotten a strong Fe-vibe from you, similar to the one I get from my Fe-dom friend, so I kind of think you are an EXFJ... but I can't analyze myself all that well, to see if my Fe-usage is as strong as yours.



alittlebear said:


> I waffle about what the internet and Internet interaction says about introversion/extroversion. I know so many introverts who _need_ social media and pour their hearts out on it (even more than I do!). I've seen a post about how social media can be the best thing for introverts, social wise, and I can see the truth in that. But what about extroverts? Extroverts who have no other way to channel their extroversion other than to come online?


That's what I wonder... if we have no other place to socialize, do we develop a strong internet presence? I've always been super-active, in that regard. I actually complain sometimes that the internet has dropped off, usage-wise; it's harder to keep a decent conversation going since there are less people actively using forums, etc.




> You come across as ISFJ to me - partially because your Ti is so strong, and partially because you've asserted yourself as such and I am one to trust one's own perceptions - but I don't know for sure. I've said in the past that you have strong Ne, but I think your Ne is unique in its focus and that it would make sense for an ISFJ's Ne to be as developed as yours is given how you are and your age.


*shrugs* I think @hoopla thinks my Ne is stronger than my Ti.



alittlebear said:


> Not that I don't see @angelcat as Margaery Tyrell. I totally do. But I don't know. ISFJ form of Margaery Tyrell??? I don't know. Something like that. Margaery Tyrell - Cinderella - something else Hybrid.
> 
> Edit: Oh! And Rory Gilmore. Of course. I don't know her much, but she certainly influences the flow of how I see Angelcat.


Avatars, all of them. So naturally you see me in them, or them in me. 



SugarPlum said:


> Hey angelcat (my phone won't let me tag)... didnt you say that you knew you had inferior Ne? Do you think you could have inferior Ti even though its so developed?


I THINK I have inferior Ne, but ... ESXJs can also "freak out" in a similar fashion. I just don't know about the inferior Ti thing, because I tend to think my logic is pretty solid. I over-analyze everything, but that's meaningless, because my Fe-dom friends also do that. Is skim-reading and half-assing responses a sign of inferior Ti? =P


----------



## Fuzzystorm

hoopla said:


> @Fuzzystorm
> 
> Yes, Pleasure Island scared the Hell out of me. For me it was the Donkey transformations.... because you decide to slack off and live a delinquent lifestyle by some cool looking people, and then suddenly you are punished by transforming into a donkey. Total lack of bodily control... or control in general. You change into something completely different against your will. That was 1000x more disturbing than Mufasa's death imo... and it also never bothered me for the same reasons you cited. It was always so odd watching the shift from depressing death to a frenzied, fun-filled mania that spurs out of nowhere. I always thought that was a clever decision.
> 
> The Brave Little Toaster is Childhood Nightmare Fuel: The Movie. The entire film is bleak or horrifying in one way or another... and then you realize the VHS cover looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 336826
> 
> 
> The most insidious and misleading cover ever. Underneath those smiles reveals fear and remose.
> 
> Willy Wonka scene never creeped me out... I had a thing for psychedelic trips in children's movies.
> 
> Snow White's forest scene on the other hand was upsetting because she was vehemently petrified. And it just hit me:
> 
> Serial killers don't bother me because I don't pay attention to the victims. I only know what happened, not the pain they felt (and I never think to imagine it). Sort of like those who dislike animal abuse but just see dinner rather than a dead cow.
> 
> Well that's one mystery solved.


I can definitely see that regarding Pleasure Island, plus not knowing that the seemingly harmless activity in which you're engaging, which was in fact encouraged of you (from what I remember), would lead to such a horrific and irreversible consequence - to be permanently stripped of your humanity and be degraded and overworked for the rest of your life, and not understanding why nor given a second chance.

I've always heard harrowing things about Brave Little Toaster, like the scene where the air conditioner suddenly heats itself up and dies in an angry frenzy. Seriously wtf? A little odd that Disney was fine tacking their name onto this even though it isn't technically their film.

The Wonka scene was a little intriguing to me when I was younger; it didn't seem to bother me as much as it did my peers when we watched in school. I was weirdly drawn to the eerie mysticism in Wonka's speech. Honestly the scene creeps me out more now than it did when I first watched the movie, especially with the brief visual of the chicken decapitation that I didn't notice when I was younger.

I'm the opposite, regarding serial killers ... I think too much about what the victim must have been feeling/thinking in their final moments and how unfair it is their life had to end due to some random person's drive to kill, and oftentimes how the victims were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. My mom likes to watch those extended news features they sometimes do on serial killers, and it baffles me how she's able to maintain her interest through the whole thing without cringing when they talk about the victims. I'm more interested in the investigative stuff (how they finally caught the guy, main clues/suspects, etc) , but don't care to watch when they go into detail about their actual crimes.


----------



## Dangerose

(Should I make a questionnaire or something? I'm feeling a bit up in the air...I'd love to definitely figure out my type)


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## Immolate

Oswin said:


> (Should I make a questionnaire or something? I'm feeling a bit up in the air...I'd love to definitely figure out my type)


Sure


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## Dangerose

Nevermind, I think I've done all the questionnaires before...
I'll link my Socionics questionnaire, it had a large variety of questions and I think it's all accurate http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ls-want-skim-through-give-their-thoughts.html
Anyways, I'm sorry for making all these posts about me...I'm just excited to figure out my actual type and I feel like things are starting to come together)


----------



## Max

I think I am actually an Fe-Dominant.
It sounds bizarre, but it's all starting to make sense now.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think I am actually an Fe-Dominant.
> It sounds bizarre, but it's all starting to make sense now.


???


----------



## 68097

So, I asked someone who seems to have a good knowledge of the functions (I love Te... so articulate... I'm jealous) what inferior Ti looks like, and he replied with *this post*.*

I can safely say, I don't identify with it, so I think ISFJ is the correct typing for me. It did, however, shock me a bit, because I had SUSPECTED my aunt as an unhealthy ESFJ and ... that description of turning into a massive bitch / laying on a guilt trip / excessive story telling when in the grip of the inferior function, etc. is EXACTLY where she is right now.

* I don't always agree with him, but what he says aligns with what I've read / observed as regards inferior Ti, so ... I trust this particular description.

And yeah, I do lapse into inferior Ne sometimes. (A decent book about in the grip / inferior functions is called: "Was That Really Me?" That's what flipped me from thinking I was NTP to SFJ.)


----------



## Persephone Soul

CupcakesRDaBestBruv said:


> OMG! I studied that painting for my GCSE Coursework! :O


That is AWESOME! She is beautiful. What do you have to tell me about it? I wanna know!


----------



## CupcakesRDaBestBruv

SugarPlum said:


> That is AWESOME! She is beautiful. What do you have to tell me about it? I wanna know!


What we had to do was pick an artist to base a piece of artwork on. I used Ulyana Regener because I wanted to capture the mysteriousness of the painting I had to produce (but I combined that with Russ Mills' technique). We had to base them solely on techniques 

There are so many hidden meanings in that painting, but I'm super stressed out with Maths right now


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, so the thing with truth is:

It's like trying to find the source of a river.
Or not just a river, all the rivers. Imagine that there is one high clear place in the world where all the varying rivers come from, which flow into the sea...that are disparate and varied and run through different climates and countries and all this nonsense...looking for truth is like looking for that pool from which they all come, which all the water in the world flows from and has a strain of. You might be able to catch a strain of that pure source in water from the Ganges, or the Nile, or the Volga, or the Mississippi, but it is muddied by other elements. So you want to look for that one source.

Or, truth is the place where paradoxes lie. This is why I had my quote from Doctor Who as my signature for a long time: "Big and little...at the same time. Brand new and ancient, and the bluest blue ever." To me, ultimate truth is the element that resolves, or allows for, paradoxes, that element which can be big and little at the same time, and the bluest blue ever...that same pure source, divinity, grace, eternity. 

Or...people tend to think of eternity as horizontal, never beginning and never ending, but there is also a vertical eternity, which is not bound by time, which can be captured in one moment, if a moment is a point in time. And truth is...if you have a horizontal element, and a vertical element, and then maybe about ten billion diagonal elements, lines on every axis, eventually you will have a sphere, and the sphere is the pure element of truth, it's the ultimate symbol of one-ness even though it is composed of many parts, lines...but something even bigger than a sphere, not just three-dimensional but four, five, six-dimensional, but like...a point is one dimensional, a circle is a two-dimensional point, a sphere is a three-dimensional circle, and ultimate truth is the infinity-dimensional sphere. And also God, probably. Also, maybe a point is the same as the infinity-dimensional sphere. Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind, indeed. 
(Not mine, Noel Harrison's.) 
* *












That is sort-of what I mean when I am talking about truth, though in everyday life it's more like the Greek ideal of Truth, Beauty, Goodness = Perfection, basically that which has no bad elements, that which is in its purest form, with nothing bad on it. For instance, a perfect novel -- does it exist? is one where there's not a single word that is not full of meaning, no element that detracts from the story, or is superfluous, and is perfect both in form and expression, and hints at that everlasting truth.

Sorry, these things sound great in my head but they look dumb and pretentious on paper.
Anyways, is it Ti or Fi?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin Thank you so much for sharing. I agree with the stream/river metaphor... It's gorgeous, but I identify it as well. (I see truth as a thread, but... Your metaphor works and resonates with me as well.) 

I don't know as much about the truth, beauty, goodness... That's a new concept to me. I would ask for you to elaborate on that more, but it would be more to my curiosity than for others to see cognitive functions, I think. (It seems sort of Fi, but I think I only think that because I don't immediately agree.) 

I can say the novel thing doesn't resonate with me. I think that literature in itself is kind of naturally perfect, especially it's designed to fulfil its purpose. I... I don't know, I'm probably not expressing myself correctly, but for me I more work to find the perfection in what exists rather than think that this is flawed, it should be this... (I'm not sure what this indicates but I think it is a difference between our views I think.)


----------



## orbit

Why is there only one source of the pure river? (sorry that sounded great, but I'm kind of curious and I get the point, but eh.)


----------



## To_august

SugarPlum said:


> This is the thing...HOW is it "weird"? I don't understand. I related a lot to it... ?


Because it is focused on concrete physical sensations appearing in the body. It's not even about abstraction of some sensory data with all ensuing consequences, but literally being good at feeling comfy, tracking of health issues and recognizing when someone feels cold so as to give them a warm plaid.

I just fail to see it as a kind of cognition that can hold domineering position in someone's stack. On the basic lower level - yes, I buy it - but in the dominant position it should be different.
Perhaps I'm not Si after all.


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> Thank you!! It's a human thing to want support and appreciation from the people you love. People acting like Fi doesn't want or need any of that.... no. I _want_ it. It's just that I won't let it get in the way of what I think is the right thing to do, or if I want to do something badly enough.


Agreed. I think this highlights one of the problems I have with typology: I think too often functions get cast in an either/or, all-or-nothing light when really it is more about what you prioritize. Jung said himself that it a pure expression of an attitude or function-type is rare. While I value clear definitions, I worry that sometimes high contrast leads to a loss of nuance.



> Also for your video, you come across as more extraverted than me, but maybe you're just more confident? I [have a very extraverted ENFP sister and my guess is you're halfway between the two of us as far as presentation goes. I relate a lot to the answers I've heard from you so far if that means anything.


I am greatly amused by the idea of me being confident. But relatively, at least, I think that I might be confident or at least I have learned how to project it. I do think my Ne has gotten more pronounced as I've gotten healthier. It can be difficult for me to tell which is higher. It seems like I am introverted until a subject comes up that interests me and then I can seem like an extrovert (or perhaps my extroversion is simply revealed). A few things hold me back from identifying as ENFP: 1. I think I experience Si-Fi loops. I don't know that I've experienced Ne-Te ones, except for the few times when I've been in a manic state. I also relate more to tert si and inferior te...I think. But I also am not confident in my understanding of inferior Si. I'm researching it now, but if anyone would care to offer their take on inferior si, I would appreciate it.



> I'm in two minds about posting this, because I think it's interesting to compare physical presences and add that extra dimension to people's online personas, but on the other hand, I'm nervous as hell (my social anxiety was flaring up at the time), and even though I'm more relaxed in the second half of the video I'm still really awkward and slow. I'm not a good speaker and improvisation is something that I'm still working on.


Your video made me smile. I like your style. You do seem more introverted than I am, but you are still charming . I related to a number of things you said. I was glad that you brought up enjoying when other people are passionate about things. Some blogs were saying that INFP is not inclined to listen to people talk if they didn't care about the subject. While I can get like that sometimes (usually about sports), I find it so delightful when people are passionate about things. Too often these days I think it is considered "uncool" to care, but I find that attitude boring.



> Which is half-related to the discussion earlier about extraverts and the internet.... I really think it comes down to the reasons for why you love it. I love it because I don't have to deal with the physical stimulation even if I'm talking with people. I love it because I can choose how much contact I have with people, and when. I love it because I have access to so much information and can cross-reference that information more effectively than if I go to a library and get books out. I love it because I express myself infinitely better in writing than when I speak, and I don't have people nagging me to talk more when I DON'T WANT TO.
> 
> So yeah. I don't think loving internet communities is an introvert-only thing, by any means.


Aside from the part about physical stimulation (though I do like that I don't have to feel as self-conscious, I mostly don't mind that sort of stimulation), I can relate to this. I dislike being put on the spot or having to be in a conversation where I don't know anything about the topic or I don't know how to make myself understood. I like being able to think things over, do research, and only participate when I want to.



SugarPlum said:


> @fair phantom
> now THIS reminds me of you!  I was about to use it for my avatar even though I am a natural brunette, now blonde with HAZEL eyes lol...but she is gorgeous...)
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/60235713742841352/
> View attachment 337098


This is so pretty! I'm flattered. 
@Oswin @Living dead The Ariel thing amuses me. I used to pretend I was her all the time. It kind of makes me think about the earlier conversation about movies and books from childhood since _The Little Mermaid_ was the first movie I saw in the theatre.



SugarPlum said:


> @fair phantom , you're an NF for realz! Even more than Oswin. Meaning that there should be no debate on the matter. I am now just trying to figure out the function specifically. I am leaning towards NFP for sure though... Yes, I am def thinking INFP!erc2::tongue::laughing:


I feel like you need an emoji with a gavel and judges robes. So decisive!


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin Thank you so much for sharing. I agree with the stream/river metaphor... It's gorgeous, but I identify it as well. (I see truth as a thread, but... Your metaphor works and resonates with me as well.)
> 
> I don't know as much about the truth, beauty, goodness... That's a new concept to me. I would ask for you to elaborate on that more, but it would be more to my curiosity than for others to see cognitive functions, I think. (It seems sort of Fi, but I think I only think that because I don't immediately agree.)
> 
> I can say the novel thing doesn't resonate with me. I think that literature in itself is kind of naturally perfect, especially it's designed to fulfil its purpose. I... I don't know, I'm probably not expressing myself correctly, but for me I more work to find the perfection in what exists rather than think that this is flawed, it should be this... (I'm not sure what this indicates but I think it is a difference between our views I think.)


Here, let me link you here:
Transcendentals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure if I'm going for this philosophy in its purest form, I tend to agree with a lot of Plato's philosophy, but then again, who doesn't, most of Western philosophy came from him. I think I was introduced to this concept when I was younger and ran with it and made it my own.

I'd say like...circles again, if you're trying to draw a circle, it's probably not going to be perfect, even if you use a compass what you will get is an approximation of a circle, and everything that separates it from the mathematical concept of 'circle' is excessive, the idea/ideal of circle exists but the best we can do is get close to a circle, no true circle exists on earth but we can mimic the idea which exists in everyone's mind. Ultimate beauty would be a true circle, with nothing taking away from it's circle-ness. Something beautiful would be a _very close_ approximation of a circle. (I mean, I feel pretty blaisé about circles, but...) And if there is an element of inaccuracy or falsity to the representation, then it is not a true circle, it might be fine for serving a practical purpose, but you want to mount as high as possible, to where there is no badness, inaccuracy, ugliness to take away...the summit of the mountain, where beauty, truth, and goodness are one.

Not sure if that makes sense; sorry 

Here's another metaphor-thing I tried to use in a story, maybe it'll be better:


> "She sang constantly, in fact, without knowing a thing of music, and so it was a strange otherworldly song which came from that lonely tower, beautiful but indistinct and primitive. She had long ago found the lower limit to her voice – but no matter how she tried, she could not find the upper limit though she knew it was there. The upper limit, she thought, was like a mountain where she might see the face of God, and she looked for it sometimes. But every place in her voice, and every interval of sound, had its own color and emotion. She closed her eyes and sang and she saw the world, and the prophets and holy men, and thought of beautiful words."


Like...the lower slopes are where things that distinguish something live, like color and emotion and particularness, but the higher you get up, the closer things are to one another, the purer, and the more free from distinguishing factors, which are necessarily tainted by reality.

But the lower slopes of the mountain aren't bad, they are interesting and different, and through studying them you can discover truths about the mountain and all that, but they are not perfect.

Sorry, I don't have a great way to phrase or express this.


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> Why is there only one source of the pure river? (sorry that sounded great, but I'm kind of curious and I get the point, but eh.)


Because...that's the basis of the metaphor haha)
No, good question though...I know there's an answer, but I'll have to think about it for a bit)
Sorry, I'm not sure if my weird metaphors are super relevant or really cognition-related)

edit: @Curiphant best I have right now is because we have the concept of unity, it must exist. Or...because things really do come from one source, you could easily (ok, it would be difficult but theoretically easily) track down all the apple trees in the world to one original apple tree...or one original cause of apple trees. Like, the Big Bang was everything coming out of one thing, we have variations of one thing, everything we know about is a variation of the ideas we have in our heads. It's easy to come up with variations on the square, we can paint it different color, pinch the edges, make into a rhombus or whatever, but the basic formula of a square will remain no matter what happens to all the physical squares, so there is One Square that exists. or...I don't know. I'll have to think some more) Thank you for that thought, I was getting a little too cocky with my understanding of my theory)


----------



## Persephone Soul

CupcakesRDaBestBruv said:


> What we had to do was pick an artist to base a piece of artwork on. I used Ulyana Regener because I wanted to capture the mysteriousness of the painting I had to produce (but I combined that with Russ Mills' technique). We had to base them solely on techniques
> 
> There are so many hidden meanings in that painting, but I'm super stressed out with Maths right now



GOTCHYA! Well, if you ever wanna showcase YOUR art, I would love love LOVE it


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> For me it's more of reminding me that "Those are sentient beings I am dealing with. Remember to consider their lives, feelings and values!" I used to be more impersonal when I was younger. Everything around seemed like a puzzle that I needed to explore. This used to scare my mother, the moments when she noticed that I was actually _that_ cold inside but over the past few years I began to thrive on connecting to people. My precious Homos :th_love: i'm so sorry for last sentence


My mom is an Fe dom too, and I was also somewhat impersonal; I would just state things bluntly, which led to confusion when people believed I was being rude, which also scared my mommy (despite kind notes I gave her). She also thought I wasn't social enough, hahaha. 

Welp that's what happens when low order Fe plugs into the equation I guess. Also don't apologize; spread dat **** love.




Greyhart said:


> I thought about going into psychology but my interest is more of removed researcher sort. I don't think I have what it takes to actually treat patients on a daily basis.


I wanted to be a teacher until I realized dealing with a rigid curriculum in a black and white school system would make me cringe, as well as overprotective or in denial parents. I could deal with college professor but I'm not academic enough. 

I really want to work with people and always have, but I need something that also stimulates thinking and innovation, something where I can learn more. And hopefully conduct research papers and case studies on my patients.That's why being a nurse never interested me... you don't figure people out. You just serve them. You don't discover anything; you just follow procedures.



Greyhart said:


> The professor impression I get I think is both Ti and Si related. Just something about those two working together gives me that association.


NTPs aren't stereotyped as absent minded professors for nothing.



Greyhart said:


> Forensics is a tedious profession even if you leave out constantly dealing with death and crime it sounds like so so much detail work. Working with living people is more dynamic. And you will also actually better life of someone who still can be helped.


Well my Si ain't inferior, so that doesn't bother me (unless there are too many leading me to over analyze details and stress out). However I think analyzing blood splatters helps people in the long run as you learn how to track down killers more efficiently. Criminal psychologist would be fun; that's why studying serial killers doesn't upset me. Who doesn't want to know what leads people to do something most would consider impalpable




Greyhart said:


> This Te Ti comparison works even in inferior positions. Although my INFP friend takes whole "overstretching to make a theory" easier than my cousin she still pokes at it in similar fashion. While my ESFJ mother still gives impression of internal mulling and mostly asks questions that are aimed to clarify "chain" of logic that brought me there. With her I just need to be clear about reasoning, evidence present takes backseat. Which again does in reverse with my ISTJ father. Sometime I feel like my life is all about explaining and convincing people of my logic. :|


That is my mother too... she sounds similar to your mom, though more crazy xD

I don't even try to convince people of my logic because I get intimidated when I get ripped on for it whoops. 




Greyhart said:


> I'm only close to one ISFJ currently.  Not sure what to expect in flesh and blood.


Get closer to more. We're not as boring as we sound.


----------



## orbit

You want to study your patients and figure them out? Are you going to be helping them as well? Or just studying?

What exactly do you want to figure out about your patients?


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> Because...that's the basis of the metaphor haha)
> No, good question though...I know there's an answer, but I'll have to think about it for a bit)
> Sorry, I'm not sure if my weird metaphors are super relevant or really cognition-related)
> 
> edit: @Curiphant best I have right now is because we have the concept of unity, it must exist. Or...because things really do come from one source, you could easily (ok, it would be difficult but theoretically easily) track down all the apple trees in the world to one original apple tree...or one original cause of apple trees. Like, the Big Bang was everything coming out of one thing, we have variations of one thing, everything we know about is a variation of the ideas we have in our heads. It's easy to come up with variations on the square, we can paint it different color, pinch the edges, make into a rhombus or whatever, but the basic formula of a square will remain no matter what happens to all the physical squares, so there is One Square that exists. or...I don't know. I'll have to think some more) Thank you for that thought, I was getting a little too cocky with my understanding of my theory)


Hm... You could argue that apple trees could have separately developed in different places and that the universe could have been two big bangs that converged into one universe? It's a possibility I guess. 

And what is the one true square? And maybe since the idea of the square was developed in different places or maybe it existed all along, there could be multiple true squares? Like why is a square one x one any less purer than the one true square? Is it because it has parameters? Hm. 

Maybe there is the one true, theoretical square with a side of s but I'm getting too literal. 

Basically, I don't understand why there can't be multiple unities or truths.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Hm... You could argue that apple trees could have separately developed in different places and that the universe could have been two big bangs that converged into one universe? It's a possibility I guess.
> 
> And what is the one true square? And maybe since the idea of the square was developed in different places or maybe it existed all along, there could be multiple true squares? Like why is a square one x one any less purer than the one true square? Is it because it has parameters? Hm.
> 
> Maybe there is the one true, theoretical square with a side of s but I'm getting too literal.
> 
> Basically, I don't understand why there can't be multiple unities or truths.


 @TelepathicGoose @Greyhart does this say something about the C. Elephant's functions?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> I worry about not being warm ENOUGH. I find it hard to fake being enthusiastic when I'm not. People have accused me of being reserved or withdrawn, and I'm always angry at myself if I am that way, or if I choose to disengage and not "Fe with people." I'm also not ... consciously, easily hurt. Like, a friend will rip me to pieces and I just get real quiet, and tell them it's fine, and I don't care -- and sometimes, I really don't. It worries me, how I can just walk away from people and not care.


From what I know about you, I really don't think you need to worry about your social skills. You strike me as charming, tbh. My mother also worries she treats people inappropriately.... she doesn't, and most people love her. It's so unfortunate she can't see it. If you are awkward well... learn to play it off with charm. I use self deprecation because well... I may act socially feeble, but at least I can laugh about it. It's a shield in a way.

American culture has been desensitized to extroversion. It's the ideal. Reserved natures come across as out of place as a result, but it shouldn't be that way. That's on them, not you.

There is a difference between empathy and sympathy. As long as you can comprehend and understand a person's choices, thought processes and actions, there is nothing wrong with not caring. Care is not always necessary anyway.

I don't mean to pry but it makes me sad when you talk about yourself in this way and I hope you realize that you are great.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> @TelepathicGoose @Greyhart does this say something about the C. Elephant's functions?


What are you implying frog.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> What are you implying frog.


You just said a complex thing similar to a lot of complex things that you say and I am wondering if anyone sees a function in it.

Edit: I was going to say this seemed Ne and maybe Te to me but we think Oswin is NFP now and she had a view opposite this... It could just be different life philosophies, separate from type... I'm not sure, though. Curious what others might think.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> You want to study your patients and figure them out? Are you going to be helping them as well? Or just studying?
> 
> What exactly do you want to figure out about your patients?


Both. I want to help people but anything that doesn't involve analysis is stifling. I thought about becoming a special ed teacher because I would help people on a deep level but also learn about how learning disabilities affect people differently, and would be able to deduce innovative strategies in order to suit individual needs. 

I plan to become a psychologist in general and use therapeutic methods... I'm getting a general psych degree as I'm not sure if I want to deal with children or adults. I would like to learn how people work and what leads them to behave in maladaptive ways. You learn a lot from psychology books, but they can only tell you so much. First hand experience can allow you to gain new perspectives which can lead to new conclusions, and there are many aspects of psychology that deserve more research (self harm for example).


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> Both. I want to help people but anything that doesn't involve analysis is stifling. I thought about becoming a special ed teacher because I would help people on a deep level but also learn about how learning disabilities affect people differently, and would be able to deduce innovative strategies in order to suit individual needs.
> 
> I plan to become a psychologist in general and use therapeutic methods... I'm getting a general psych degree as I'm not sure if I want to deal with children or adults. I would like to learn how people work and what leads them to behave in maladaptive ways. You learn a lot from psychology books, but they can only tell you so much. First hand experience can allow you to gain new perspectives which can lead to new conclusions, and there are many aspects of psychology that deserve more research (self harm for example).


How would you discover what leads people to behave in maladaptive ways? Because obviously intentionally putting people under stress and making them prone to mental illness is unethical. So would you just look for patterns?

Hm...


----------



## Immolate

I'm so exhausted, guys. Truly exhausted.










Even so, I had the urge to fill out a short socionics questionnaire. If nothing else, you'll get a sense of what Te is like because I know there's some confusion there.

If I sound apathetic in my answers it's because wow so tired. I also didn't try at all towards the end lol


* *





*Personal concepts*

*1. What is beauty? What is love?*

Beauty is purity of feeling. The sound of a baby’s laughter is pure and beautiful. It’s genuine and sincere and bubbles forth without restraint. It’s also sitting on a shoreline and appreciating the way the moon affects the shape and movement of the waves, biting into a plum and understanding a plum is one way nature propagates itself, looking up at the night sky and feeling smaller than the stars visible to your naked eye.

Love is a connection that runs so deep it meshes the external with the internal. Someone’s happiness is your happiness, their pain is your pain. The loss of something or someone is the loss of something inside yourself.

*2. What are your most important values?*

I value honesty and I value truth. I don’t want to leave this world with false or misguided beliefs, even if those beliefs are more nurturing than reality. I need to know I've understood this one life I have, as best as I can understand this life with the sources available to me. I don’t want to waste my one opportunity to experience myself and experience the world.

I also value respect and appreciation. All life exists once. I look at my dog and understand he has one life to live, at most sixteen years, and I want to make those sixteen years worthwhile. If you've one life to live, what meaning is there in living a life of pain, not knowing the simple happiness of a hug or soft bed? The thought is obviously more painful when I consider human lives, those lives born into pain and ending in pain.

*3. Do you have any sort of spiritual/religious beliefs, and why do you hold (or don't) those beliefs in the first place?*

I was born into spirituality and religious observance. My parents introduced me to their church when I was a newborn. I spent the first years of my life attending church on a weekly basis. There were a few years where I stayed home on Sundays, but religion deeply rooted itself in my life when I was ten years old.

I remember standing in class reciting the pledge of allegiance. I kept thinking about my sadness and dissatisfaction. Why was my life this way? What was I missing? I thought about my belief in God, and that’s when it clicked that I saw God as an addition to my life rather than the origin and center of my life. I also took an interest in religion and a higher power because it was a source of intellectual curiosity. I thought about death and dying, and I realized I couldn’t leave this world without understanding what it meant to die. I always heard, “You only know there is a heaven when you die and go there,” but I knew there was a chance you could die and simply cease to exist. How, then, could I have my answer?

I explored these feelings until I was fifteen years old. That’s when I started to separate myself from my upbringing and my parents’ beliefs. I could not reconcile who I was and who I was supposed to be in the eyes of God, and I could not reconcile what I had learned throughout my childhood and what I was beginning to learn in my young adulthood. I remember my biology teacher saying, “The biggest crisis I had in my childhood was deciding whether or not there existed a god.” The class laughed at his admission, but I understood his struggle.

I ultimately lost the belief in a higher power and a life after death. I’m most comfortable labeling myself an agnostic atheist because I acknowledge I can’t prove or disprove anything. It is simply what I believe. The existence or non-existence of a higher power no longer has any bearing on my life.

*4. Opinion on war and militaries? What is power to you?*

I avoid thinking about this for the most part. People abuse each other and will always abuse each other. People want influence over one another, they want control and they want submission. Power, to me, is knowledge and the strength to use that knowledge for the sake of diplomacy and human progress. You could say I’m a pacifist and have an idealistic vision of the world, a vision I know will most likely never come to pass.

*
Interests*

*5. What have you had long conversations about? What are your interests? Why?*

I like to think and talk about social progress, the mind and its inner workings, our significance or insignificance, and future human life. I’ll talk about what I find most interesting in this list.

When I think about our place in the world, I think about whales. It’s hard for me to put into words, and I know I must sound ridiculous right now. For me, whales have always been beautiful and terrifying. I think about whales and see the progress and enormity of creation, and I use the word “creation” very loosely here because I see nature as having created itself. Whales and other sea-dwelling animals have been around longer than we have. They’ve experienced this world and dwelled in this world longer than the human race as we know it has existed. I put myself in the perspective of an outside viewer, literally seeing the totality of the earth, its continents and its oceans and its living things. What defines the earth? What inspires awe? I say it’s natural creation. We have no ownership of the earth and its systems. It existed before us and would continue to exist should we disappear. It’s disconcerting that the earth is the only planet we know of that thrives with life, and yet we choose to destroy that life and uniqueness.

Having said that, I’m not against progress, specifically technological progress. It’s always disappointing to me when a show or book heavy with science fiction elements chooses to demonize technology. “Look at the borg! This is the meaning of technology! The loss of our humanity and uniqueness!” I’ve never liked the argument that the more we focus on things like technology and scientific progress, the more we stray from our humanity. The question so rampant in science fiction -- “Are you less human the more removed you are from your body?” -- has always had an obvious answer for me. No, of course not. Humanity is about the mind and the heart, not the body. When I think about the direction we’re taking with technology and science, I think about the way we’ll be forced to reevaluate life and personhood.

On a practical level, technology can improve our quality of life if used responsibly.

Those are some of my ridiculous interests and rambles.

*6. Interested in health/medicine as a conversation topic? Are you focused on your body?*

I’m interested in mental health and psychiatry. I think it’s interesting how love and kindness are such abstract concepts, and yet they have origins in the structures and chemicals of the brain. People diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, for example, have brains that are structurally and/or chemically different from the average person’s brain. Childhood trauma, whether physical or emotional, can alter brain development and affect emotional expression. I don’t think emotions come from an intangible, ethereal place, but I don’t care to break down human life into chemical reactions either. I also feel very strongly about removing the stigma surrounding mental illness, and I’d like to make a difference in the lives of people who struggle with it day to day.
I don’t have any particular focus on my body.

*7. What do you think of daily chores?*

They’re necessary. What else is there to say? I don’t mind dishes piling up in the sink or laundry overflowing a bit. I get to them eventually. I don’t let my surroundings turn into a trash heap.

*8. Books or films you liked? Recently read/watched or otherwise. Examples welcome.*

Short lists of whatever comes to mind.

Books: The Blind Assassin (Margaret Atwood), The Left Hand of Darkness (Ursula K. Le Guin), Birthday of the World (Ursula K. Le Guin), Perdido Street Station (China Mieville), Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami).

Movies & Shows: Star Trek: The Next Generation, Battlestar Galactica, Orange is the New Black, Parks and Recreation, Sherlock, Alien, Europa Report, Equilibrium.

*9. What has made you cry? What has made you smile? Why?*

What an overly personal question. Next.

*10. Where do you feel: at one with the environment/a sense of belonging?*

I hardly ever feel at one with the environment. I admire natural beauty, but I have a hard time interacting with it. I would say… I feel most at one when I’m staring out into the ocean, preferably at night. The vastness of the ocean inspires awe and terror at the same time. I’m staring at “the beyond,” and I always picture the earth as it looks from outer space. The ocean is a reminder of what I’m standing on and where I fit in it. I suppose this also covers the sense of belonging.

*
Evaluation & Behaviour*

*11. What have people seen as your weaknesses? What do you dislike about yourself?*

My lack of sociality has always been a problem. People think so. I think so. I’ve always considered emotions my weakness. I try to distance myself from them because I can’t always handle their intensity. I’d rather experience a degree of apathy than the ups and downs of emotions.

*12. What have people seen as your strengths? What do you like about yourself?

*I’m thorough, thoughtful, and “intellectually curious,” as one professor once put it. I’m also willing to listen to someone even if there are three years of silence between us. I like that I care deeply about certain things and want to make a difference in someone’s life, whether directly or indirectly.

*13. In what areas of your life would you like help?*

My feels. My social ineptitude.My trouble brainstorming.

*14. Ever feel stuck in a rut? If yes, describe the causes and your reaction to it.*

Yes. What person has never been in a rut? I’m not going to include my depression or anxiety in this answer because there is no controlling that side of me without medication. That is the fact of it.

I feel stuck in a rut whenever I’m not doing something useful with my mind, when I spend a long period of time achieving nothing, and by “achieving” I mean something as simple as learning something new or reading a book. My mind needs something to do or something to focus on. I also feel stuck in a rut when I forego accomplishing my goals, either because I procrastinate or because I lack the motivation. I need to see certain things through, personal motivations, and I get angry and irritated when I make no progress. I usually react by giving myself a reality check or rethinking my plans and intentions.

*
People & Interactions*

*15. What qualities do you most like and dislike in other people? What types do you get along with?*

I like authenticity, creativity, openness, thoughtfulness, a well-developed world view, someone who seeks knowledge and introduces me to new ideas or perspectives. I prefer when someone is upfront and doesn’t resort to passive aggression or ambiguity. I greatly dislike a sense of pride, the kind of pride that keeps someone from admitting they are wrong or need to rethink a certain topic. This is the kind of pride that likes to belittle you to draw attention away from its own sense of inferiority. I also dislike anyone who is uncaring and doesn’t stop to think about experiences beyond their own. 

*16. How do you feel about romance/sex? What qualities do you want in a partner?*

I’ve never cared much for romantic relationships. I never pursue a relationship. Relationships simply develop on their own over a period of time. To me, relationships are only worth starting if there is an intention to treat the relationship seriously. I don’t mean there has to be a long-term commitment. On the contrary. We need to have realistic expectations about the relationship and understand how it could develop over time. If it doesn’t have the potential to go anywhere, then there is no point in starting one in the first place. I don’t like having relationships for fun or mere companionship. I’m fine on my own.

But it wasn’t until I started thinking about this question that I realized I’ve never had a traditional relationship. It’s a bit hard to follow tradition under my circumstances, but even then my relationships haven’t been traditional. I separate sex from romantic feelings, although I do feel it’s best when you care about the person. To summarize, I don’t have a problem with close friends having sex with each other simply because they want to, or a polyamorous relationship, or even a romantic relationship that doesn’t involve sex. As for sex itself, it’s whatever the person wants it to be. I don’t care for traditional definitions of sex because they can be very limiting and also invalidate sexual expression that doesn’t conform to the male/female standard.

As for qualities, I would say the same qualities I look for in other people, with the added quality of maturity and emotional independence. I don’t do well with people who are emotionally fragile.

*17. If you were to raise a child, what would be your main concerns, what measures would you take, and why?*

I have no intention of raising a child, but…

Main Concerns & Measures 

emotional health 
overall health 
access to healthy social environments 
access to good education 
healthy and supportive family figures in their life 
healthy sense of self-worth 
an understanding of social differences, sexuality, etc 
confidence in the fact they will not be harmed or judged by family 
freedom to pursue their own interests 

*18. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward and outward reaction?*

My inward reaction is one of disappointment. I try my best to befriend people who don’t belittle or devalue my beliefs, but there is always someone who will casually denigrate a person or group of people, or a person who will try to make you feel stupid for believing what you do. My outward reaction is one of confrontation. I engage them in discussion, present my point of view, explain the significance it has for me, and so on. Either they understand and choose to respect my point of view, as I choose to respect theirs, or they choose to insult or attack what I believe. In that case, I lose respect for them.

*19. Describe your relationship to society. How do you see people as a whole? What do you consider a prevalent social problem? Name one.*

I feel separate from society. I don’t keep up with trends or popular culture. I don’t think about the way people perceive me unless it has a direct impact on my happiness. I don’t frequently engage with the world. 

People as a whole are… they’re just trying to get by. I don’t believe they’re bad or good. I don’t believe they’re impure or pure. They just are. They have the potential to be better than they are, and they have the potential to be worse than they are. I don’t measure their worth based on intelligence or good will or altruism. Everyone has a secret or bit of darkness tucked away inside. Everyone has their struggle, ignorance, and moments of cruelty.

An obvious social problem: inequality. Some people are incapable or unwilling to look outside of their own experiences. They have their bubble of safety and don’t want anyone breaching that bubble. Sociocultural ignorance plays a part in this. Limited world views play a part in this. We need more enthusiasm for diversity, understanding, and acceptance.

*20. How do you choose your friends and how do you behave around them?*

Refer to #15.

I’m open with friends, although there still exists a barrier between us. I’m used to being on my own and doing things on my own. As much as I enjoy a friend’s company, I need time away to recharge. I always appreciate when a friend checks up on me or admits to missing me. I prefer emotional openness and a steady stream of communication. People who are passive and expect or want me to be the sole initiator in the friendship don’t mesh well with me.

*21. How do you behave around strangers?*

It depends on the situation. If it’s academic or professional, I do what I have to do to appear my best. Otherwise, I’m on the quieter side and prefer getting a sense of who they are as a person before engaging them.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Oswin is not an ISTJ.


Probably not, no. But I can see that better than SFP, which was the point I meant to get across.

Sometimes I am too open and offer too many choices to people. 

Btw I liked your questionnaire. I know you still disagree, but your answer to 10. is what I meant by Si passivity. Not passive with people (I don't think you are at all)... but environmentally and atmospherically passive... detached from the world. It's really hard for me to explain. You can phrase or label that however you like, because semantics.


----------



## Max

@shinynotshiny @Oswin @alittlebear @Curiphant @Greyhart @hoopla @angelcat @fair phantom @SugarPlum @CupcakesRDaBestBruv @To_august @Living dead @TelepathicGoose

From what you guys know of me, do you think I am more likely to be an ESFJ or ESTP? I would like a good explaination why you think one over the other. Thank you all for your time and patience with me


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Biology.


Well yeah but what causes the biology to screw me up? Maybe it's chance


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Probably not, no. But I can see that better than SFP.


I would say most likely not. I don't get a sense of strong Te or thinking over feeling.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I thought about becoming a special ed teacher. My friend thinks me a bit unethical, because as a teacher I would most love to teavh gifted students (she thinks I should teach Special Ed Special Ed). But she doesn't understand... I can't do it because I don't agree with how "special Ed" students are treated. The way that special ed teachers are trained to teach the mentally disabled is so detrimental to them, so dehumanizing, so unbelievably wrong... and yes, yes, yes I should go into the field, seeing how wrongly they are treated, and try to make it a little more bearable for my students. Stand up for them. But first I would have to operate in the system that somewhat in its existence brings harm to them... and as a teacher, I couldn't change nation wide teaching practices. You can't fix it from the inside out.
> 
> Just a thought, sorry. Special Ed teaching and why not to special Ed teavh was brought up and it reminded me of my personal quarrels with the field.


My father taught special ed for years and was evidently very good at it. Students he used to teach friend him on facebook. I could relay any questions you have to him. One thing you need to be aware of is that in certain cases you will need to be able to project authority and be firm. However, I think that depends on what difficulties you are working with.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Why do you think that? The district I volunteered at were very ethical, imo. I volunteered at a camp though... which was unethical.
> 
> Though I did have a friend mention the segregation bothered her. I think she had a point... they tried to include them though, but maybe inclusion could have been more broad.


It's the dehumanization. They are treated kindly enough, most of the time, but they are still not regarded as people. It is about control. Infantilization. Patronizing. I know friends who have suffered from even being briefly apart of the special ed program, and I have read more in depth accounts (far too many of them) from special ed students and how traumatizing their experience was within the program. I still don't know a solution, but I know it starts small. 

I volunteered with disabled children for a few summers, at a camp. It was lovely. I love working with the kids. They're wonderful. 

But the special ed teacher who reigned over the program.. She was good with the kids. They liked her, it seemed. But the way she regarded the children sickened me. You have to yell to make them do something. Punishment, even if they have no idea what for. You have to be rough. And... no. That might have been what they taught her in school, that might have been what she sees working, it is what she sees working, but it is incorrect and harmful. In some ways, I often feel that the way they treated them was worse than animals. They are people. The program's forget that. Care for them all you want, if you forget to treat them as individuals and adapt accordingly... People are going to get hurt. And unfortunately they are getting hurt even as I type this. 

Pathos-based words, yes. No logos, maybe. But it's true nonetheless. I can't put into eloquent words and trace precisely what is wrong, but something is _very_ wrong and many of my fervent prayers go to it being fixed. (Not just in special ed... but in psychiatry, as a similar example... and just in the world; sadly this is just one brutal, harmful injustice that happens because others do not acknowledge people as fully human).


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> Hm.
> 
> But what if in one universe the circle exists and in another, it doesn't? Then they don't have anything in common.
> Or in another universe it's a square?
> 
> Another thing (complete side note) that's bothering me is I guess I don't like stripping things down but that might be my Te-ness.


Yes, we are not on the same page) 
But I'm not sure how to explain my point of view any more concretely) and I'm not convinced I'm grasping yours either)
Mm...yeah, maybe there's a universe in which no literal circle exists (are we talking literal circles?) but there is an existence of a circle in this universe, and there must be existence of something in the other universe otherwise it would not be, the very existence/non-existence dichotomy unites them. 



> So they all converge and are stripped of their distinctive properties to their most basic core?


Yes. But the distinctive properties also come from somewhere, obviously. I think we can imagine that there are two sources, one where the 'pure' qualities come from and another where the distinctive properties come from...but even those two sources have a common element, a source of their own, and the distinctive properties could be described I guess as things not being in their proper place

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, maybe it's better to say that they aren't in their original place

But they will eventually all come together again, probably

Mm..yeah, I think we got off track from each other, so I'm not sure if I answered your post or not)


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Well yeah but what causes the biology to screw me up? Maybe it's chance


So much to say but so exhausted.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Not even just the psychologists or therapists. You have to deal with psychiatric nurses and mental health techs who are just there to make a living and don't even see you as a person, and these are the people you most interact with if you're hospitalized, for example. Oh humanity.


YES. So many of them didn't even treat us like real people. It was so dehumanizing.



Curiphant said:


> I knew a couple of kids from my ward that lived in a hospital in Pittsburg where they were bootyjuiced and forced to do worksheets and if you talked they like told you to shut up and there were guards everywhere and I just remember it was really bad.
> 
> That hospital didn't get it =/


Hahaha I wonder if it was the place I was for inpatient. That place didn't help me in any way except the purely physical. made me crazier in fact. I hate that place so much. When I envision hell, it resembles that place.

ETA: in case it wasn't clear, I was laughing because of it being a hospital in Pitt


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> My father taught special ed for years and was evidently very good at it. Students he used to teach friend him on facebook. I could relay any questions you have to him. One thing you need to be aware of is that in certain cases you will need to be able to project authority and be firm. However, I think that depends on what difficulties you are working with.


My room mate's father is actually a special ed teacher... It's something her and I do not necessarily see eye to eye on, and we often just don't discuss it. I know that it's precoedural, that a lot of the students enjoy it... But it still sickens me, and having heard the voices of those who can recognize that what is done to them is abusive and harmful... I can't bear it. I don't know, it's not something I can discuss logically at this point (I'm still in need of coming to actual talking points with these things, at this time, it's mostly intense feeling and passion and internal logic but things that are difficult to justify.) 

I do think that a lot of special ed teachers do care. In a big way, you have to care to go into the field. They have good intentions, good hearts, and part of me cannot fault them for what they participate in due to the programs they are involved in (and this is putting aside those who... are harmful, who see their students as "funny" and "amusing" and enjoy telling anyone who will listen stories about their "insane" and "wild" students). Unfortunately the program is designed in such a way that sometimes good intentions do not equate with beneficial impact.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> So much to say but so exhausted.


You hopefully aren't dying any time soon so take your time ^^

If we remember to talk about this again


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> YES. So many of them didn't even treat us like real people. It was so dehumanizing.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha I wonder if it was the place I was for inpatient. That place didn't help me in any way except the purely physical. made me crazier in fact. I hate that place so much. When I envision hell, it resembles that place.


That's how everyone described it as.


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @shinynotshiny @Oswin @alittlebear @Curiphant @Greyhart @hoopla @angelcat @fair phantom @SugarPlum @CupcakesRDaBestBruv @To_august @Living dead @TelepathicGoose
> 
> From what you guys know of me, do you think I am more likely to be an ESFJ or ESTP? I would like a good explaination why you think one over the other. Thank you all for your time and patience with me


I think you use the Si-Ne axis.
I would guess ESFJ.


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> I think you use the Si-Ne axis.
> I would guess ESFJ.


I see a fair bit of Si in Lucho


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> I just saw this sorry. I like the no prying part especially ^^
> 
> No wonder you're so attracted to MBTI XP


Ha yes, I think it feeds Fe-Ti adequately. What I enjoy about people is everyone is unique on a universal scale and goes through experiences only they share, so I learn something new about people every time I create a new acquaintance. My understandings of people is always reinventing and changing. There is nothing stagnant about people. They are complex, and therefore a challenge.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> That's how everyone described it as.


I'm thinking it was the same place. Small world.


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, is everyone on board with INFP for me? (except @hoopla who is still thinking SFJ I believe)
Please tell me if you are not now because it seems that there were a few people thinking I was an NP who did not really say so))
I'm not totally convinced, but I want to know where everybody else is at in regards to my type.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> Ha yes, I think it feeds Fe-Ti adequately. What I enjoy about people is everyone is unique on a universal scale and goes through experiences only they share, so I learn something new about people every time I create a new acquaintance. My understandings of people is always reinventing and changing. There is nothing stagnant about people. They are complex, and therefore a challenge.


Hm. Well by the way it turns out you pegged me as a Te-Fi user right. 

Do you like consciously learn things about new people or like do you think about blabla and then you think about something?

I'm taking this too literally but I'm curious to see if people's brains are dynamic and constantly learning as people make it out to be. Like I'm not questioning your claims' authenticity, just probing at it. 

I guess what I call learning might different from other people... I don't think hearing about fractals is the same as learning because I'm not really understanding it, and I just gained a bit of knowledge about it

Maybe I have high standards for what learning is called... Hm.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Hmm... And I think that some special ed programs can be effective? My room mate actually went to a school for students with a certain disability type,many it was greatly helpful for her. I also worked with the special needs students at my school, and while the teachers were far too grumpy and detached, the students were treated very well as far as I could tell (not only by the staff but also by the students... My school had a lot of problems, but the student body generally got that right.) 

It probably just depends. 

Sorry for my inconsistency and too-strong stances, it's an issue I feel very strongly about but which I have not verbalized in type form before. I'm still working out the obvious kinks in my logic/argument.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Ok, is everyone on board with INFP for me? (except @hoopla who is still thinking SFJ I believe)
> Please tell me if you are not now because it seems that there were a few people thinking I was an NP who did not really say so))
> I'm not totally convinced, but I want to know where everybody else is at in regards to my type.


I think INFP.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Ok)
> I think...I finally feel convinced)
> INFP) OK)


Yay, another person's confirmed! :laughing:





... I hope I haven't jinxed it...


----------



## fair phantom

trying on ENFP to see how it fits.


----------



## ElliCat

@alittlebear Truth is... well, I don't know, I don't like to think in absolutes. When it comes to F things (so values, emotions, morals, etc) I think there are multiple truths. If you genuinely feel an emotion, it's true, even if the thing that's evoking that emotion in you is purely in your imagination. With value judgements and morals I feel like things are extremely nuanced. I know what I believe to be right and wrong, but someone else might have a different understanding and that can be perfectly okay too. Obviously the level of "okayness" is going to decrease the more our value judgements diverge, but for example I'm not going to jump on someone for thinking that lying under any circumstances is unacceptable when I believe that sometimes white lies are justified. 

I guess where Te comes into it is that I want outside confirmation. Things making sense inside my head alone isn't proof of anything. Maybe my understanding is wrong? So I look to the facts to educate myself. What can be consistently proven in reality, time and time again? What are the concrete consequences of me acting on my beliefs? If these things don't match up to how I expected them to based on my feelings or intentions, clearly my own subjective understanding contains a few errors and I need to rectify them.

That feels kind of sloppy but I hope it got the point across. I'm much more comfortable explaining how I feel when I'm in the grip of inferior Te. In that moment I'm all those terrible things you guys say about Te. XD



alittlebear said:


> What is an internal moral quota?
> 
> I have always been very moralistic with myself - and sometimes, unfortunately, with others - but for me it was a combination of what I thought God would want me to do and what I knew I should do to make the world a better place, and to help people. It was a blending of these two when I was around my teens, and especially about pleasng God when I was younger, now it's more about living out love and bringing more light into the world and the lives of others.
> 
> I mention this because one of my first reactions to reading the Fi quote above (which I've read before and not certified with, if I recall correctly) just now was "I have a moral standard that I need to live up to or I cannot live with myself." But I still think that, for me, this stems from my external actions and pleasing God. I dream of living a life where I am externally selfless and kind, always giving of my time, performing selfless and caring, effective actions... not a life where I can live with myself because internally I am okay with myself?


Yeah for me it's entirely internal. I might tweak things based on how I observe the real world consequences of my beliefs, or if there is enough evidence to prove that I might not have things entirely figured out, but on the whole my values and beliefs have been pretty consistent throughout my life. I'd never do a full backflip on anything, and I can't take any kind of external moral code as it is. I can respect its intent, and I can take some good things from it, but just to accept it on its own would just be... weird, to me. I have to dissect it, pick it apart, check it against my own understanding of morality. 

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that I only try to live up to this moral code so that I can go through life feeling okay with myself. It's really hard to "feel okay with yourself" when your ideals are so unrealistic that you as a human being will never, ever achieve them. It's more like, the drive to keep this moral consistency and live up to what you feel is right is what keeps your in check. I don't need an external authority to make sure I do the right thing. That desire comes from within. I think the "feeling okay with yourself" comes out in situations where other people are like, "why would you bother doing that? no one else is, and no one's gonna care if you don't do the right thing." In that situation it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, or who is going to notice. I have to do it anyway. I have to keep my own integrity. Going against that isn't just feeling bad for a few minutes. It's literally calling my own integrity into question. If I compromise on that, what else is going to make me lose my standards? What kind of terrible person am I on the way to becoming? 

I don't know how it is for other Fi types. INFP's are notoriously hard on themselves in this way though.



Oswin said:


> I can relate, I think. Though for me it was purely a matter of: if I thought it was wrong, I found it wrong and tried my very best to be good, but if the rule seemed arbitrary, or if I was already to the point where I was breaking the rule, the consequences just didn't seem like a deal at all.


Yeah I can't stand arbitrary rules. If I don't see the point in it, it might as well not exist to me. I'll still try to avoid being _caught_, because the punishment's going to be useless (as in, I'm not going to "learn" from it when I think the premise sucks), but beyond that I won't think much of it.



> (I like your accent and you look super cute, a bit like Snow White -- are you Australian?)


Maaaaaayyyyybe.....??



> I think it started off because I didn't like the stereotypes of how Americans could only speak English and I wanted to counteract that (whether so I could avoid being judged along with other Americans and be not like them or on behalf of America, I'm not sure, probably both)


I get a little bit like that too. Don't define me by my family or my cultural background or the society I grew up in! Define me by the evidence I give you! I'm simultaneously a product of my environment and my own autonomous entity. I take great pleasure in defying expectations based on people's assumptions of what I _should_ be like. 



> And my grandfather imprinted on me from a young age about how important a language was to a country, because he wanted me to learn Irish, and I always felt really sad on the behalf of dying languages because I didn't want that to be lost. I devoted myself really strongly to Irish, and I tried studying other languages of that ilk...but then I switched to wanting to speak more widely-spoken languages. I had a lot of Russian friends, and I ended up learning Russian out of my interest and because they kept me honest, when I started to learn, they started to give me lots of Russian books and kept asking me about my progress and inviting me to Russian-speaking events so I had to learn it to keep up. And then it was also just a little standard, it just seemed I wouldn't be very interesting or, I don't know, 'worthy', not a heroine or a princess or anything, if I didn't speak some important languages. And I'm not very good at any of them anymore, but I like the idea of speaking languages and I want to be able to travel anywhere in the world and be able to speak with them, and I consider it polite to speak to people in their native tongue, and all this...there's lots of reasons) But I really don't follow up on all these reasons, typing this has been a good reminder to actually practice them))


That's really awesome! I always feel sad for the dying languages but I've never had an opportunity or a strong enough drive to learn any.

My language skills are so much better when I'm surrounded by the language. It keeps me accountable. And like you I feel like it's polite to speak to people in their native tongue as far as possible, especially when you're in their country! (Not that I expect other people to be fluent in English when they come to my home country... I just think they should be _trying_ to improve. I know languages are harder for some than for others so I feel it's unfair to judge them all by the same criteria. Intention is more important to me.) 

I also love the way it opens my mind up to new ways of thinking. New words, new concepts in culture... it's incredible, really. What a way to grow as a person. And the doors it opens up for you when you're travelling, too... some people are so excited when they find out you want to make the effort to speak to them in their own language, and I dunno, I find it really sweet of them.



Living dead said:


> http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/567130-ne-not-skill-oriented.html
> 
> What do you guys think about this?
> 
> I can relate.
> Like, loving the idea of something or potentially being good at something for me equals actually being good at it.Not directly,but I genuinely forget my lack of experience.
> 
> Edit: So EXTREMELY applies to my ESFJ grandma,that's the trick she uses to "know" 5 different languages XD
> But my xNFP mother is not like that at all


I have never understood people who claim to speak 5 languages, and then when you quiz them on it it turns out they only speak 2 fluently and the rest are just basics, or a few words. 

I conflate the two in the same way as @Oswin. "Once I've started to learn a langauge, it feels like I should know it already." Exactly. And when people start telling you about their friend who went on exchange for a year to Germany and came back fluent in German, it fills your head with unrealistic ideas (especially considering a monolingual English speaker's definition of "fluent in a foreign language" is probably not the same as mine, which is "fluent in a foreign language"). I'm at a B2 level in Finnish, which in practical terms means I can get by in most everyday situations and can understand a fair bit of what's going on around me. But when people ask me if I speak any Finnish, I still reply with "yes, a little". It's going to continue to be "a little" until I'm 100% fluent.



Oswin said:


> for me it's the direct contrast of the imagined (I speak German fluently) and the reality (I don't speak German fluently) if that makes sense.


EXACTLY.



To_august said:


> Because it is focused on concrete physical sensations appearing in the body. It's not even about abstraction of some sensory data with all ensuing consequences, but literally being good at feeling comfy, tracking of health issues and recognizing when someone feels cold so as to give them a warm plaid.
> 
> I just fail to see it as a kind of cognition that can hold domineering position in someone's stack. On the basic lower level - yes, I buy it - but in the dominant position it should be different.
> Perhaps I'm not Si after all.


I can relate to it in the sense that I'm interested in those things and sometimes want guidance in things like playing host, decorating the home, etc. But I don't believe that's _all_ there is to Si, especially like you said, in a more dominant position in the stack, it should be far more nuanced than that! And I question how much is due to me being a self-preservation variant in Enneagram... obviously my focus is going to be on things like that anyway. 



fair phantom said:


> I am greatly amused by the idea of me being confident. But relatively, at least, I think that I might be confident or at least I have learned how to project it. I do think my Ne has gotten more pronounced as I've gotten healthier. It can be difficult for me to tell which is higher. It seems like I am introverted until a subject comes up that interests me and then I can seem like an extrovert (or perhaps my extroversion is simply revealed). A few things hold me back from identifying as ENFP: 1. I think I experience Si-Fi loops. I don't know that I've experienced Ne-Te ones, except for the few times when I've been in a manic state. I also relate more to tert si and inferior te...I think. But I also am not confident in my understanding of inferior Si. I'm researching it now, but if anyone would care to offer their take on inferior si, I would appreciate it.


I was more getting at you being able to project it, but that was just a gut feeling based on some of your previous posts and I didn't want to say for sure whether you were actually confident or not.

I don't know if this helps but I come across as more extraverted when I get excited about something, or when I feel really comfortable in my surroundings. For all I talk about how words are hard for me and how I'm silent a lot of the time, there are also moments in which I talk a LOT. 

When I think of a socially ambiverted extravert, I think of someone who doesn't necessarily want to spend a lot of their free time with people, but who still need to regularly go out and engage with the outside world _somehow_. For me, it's far easier to overexert myself and then need to recover alone, than it is to overexert myself by being alone. Although of course I also get restless if I spend too much time alone. I suspect that unless you fall on either end of the extraversion/introversion scale, it can be quite difficult to tell which one you are.

As for your points:

1. I know of at least one ENFP who identifies more with Fi-Si loops than Ne-Te. I think loops are one of those things that some people really strongly identify with, and others are a bit more ambivalent about.
2. Inferior Si is... kinda tricky for me to describe. I think the biggest difference is that under stress, they tend to withdraw, while an INFP gets their tyrannical ESTJ caricature on and starts getting hypercritical and control freakish. 



> Your video made me smile. I like your style. You do seem more introverted than I am, but you are still charming . I related to a number of things you said. I was glad that you brought up enjoying when other people are passionate about things. Some blogs were saying that INFP is not inclined to listen to people talk if they didn't care about the subject. While I can get like that sometimes (usually about sports), I find it so delightful when people are passionate about things. Too often these days I think it is considered "uncool" to care, but I find that attitude boring.


Thank you! I kind of categorise the "enthusiastic about sports" a bit differently... to me it seems more like tribalism, an "us vs them" thing, than what I would call passion. I find patriotism absurd, and I guess I can be a bit elitist about things that I have no interest in myself. Otherwise, I think that having the interest and the drive to immerse oneself in learning and improving on skills in a certain area is an admirable trait. It shows focus, and it shows a certain faith in oneself too, to be able to pursue something on a mere feeling.



> Aside from the part about physical stimulation (though I do like that I don't have to feel as self-conscious, I mostly don't mind that sort of stimulation), I can relate to this. I dislike being put on the spot or having to be in a conversation where I don't know anything about the topic or I don't know how to make myself understood. I like being able to think things over, do research, and only participate when I want to.


Yeah, I think that last bit is quite lower Te... not feeling confident in your understanding of the facts or knowing how to explain things, and wanting that extra security before being plunged into that kind of situation. Or maybe it's the 5 wing. Ugh. I hate having to isolate these things. I don't want people think I know what I'm talking about - I'm just bouncing ideas around here!



Oswin said:


> Ok, I think so? Not sure. I mean, I don't think my beliefs are changing every day, I know what I believe and I'm not...I don't feel the same as her, that once you are certain of something it's like putting a cap on it and putting it away, for me it's more like finding the beginning of a path that you can travel along. Not closing a door, but opening one. But I'm with her in that...if I thought that being certain of something would mean stagnation, just having a bunch of ornaments on my shelf, I would not want that, some things are certain for me but it doesn't mean I'm done with them.


I think that's stronger Ji-Ne? Don't know whether it means that you're Ji-dom, or if your Ji is just stronger than hers.



> *So I try not to judge others for it, because I truly have no idea where they are coming from,* having faith seems so obvious to me, it's like if people say they don't believe in sound. _But it's right there,_ you had to use it to express the thought, how could you have missed it?
> 
> So...eh, not sure about that bit.
> 
> I also don't really understand the concept of freedom. Actually, what she was saying made a little more sense than what others will say. I just...hm, I've never been a slave or anything, so I don't have a strong perspective on it. It feels like something everyone has, who isn't literally enslaved. This is just one of those concepts for me. *I know what people mean...yet I don't.* Like when people say, "I don't like Harry Potter". I hear the words, I accept the statement but no picture is formed of my head of Harry Potter from their perspective. It's foreign to me.


For what it's worth, I can relate to this. I think Fi can be like this when it's more mature... like, we understand that we only understand our own perspective, and it feels weird to judge someone else based on that perspective, because we know that if we have our own unique perspective, then chances are they do too, and why would you judge that when you have nothing to go by?



Greyhart said:


> - My English is _so_ good.
> - I know nothing about actual grammar rules.
> 
> Seems legit.


I wonder if it's an ENxP thing vs. INxP thing. Now that I think about it, by ENTP is more likely to "admit" to speaking a language while I'm waffling about, "well, I only know a couple of words, and I can't get by in many situations, so I don't know if I'd feel right to say that I speak it, but...." >_<



> your coherency in those videos is making me envious >_<


 Coherency? What coherency? I can never think of the right words on the spot. Even when I'm writing I have to revise my wording like 5 times before it gets anywhere close to what I want. 

I agree that the others are lovely though.



> I have my own way looking at it. I believe that logical rules need to be consistent within the system. The best ones are those that remain consistent through multiple systems. So if I had to choose what to "seek" it would be the later ones - those that are upheld universally. So Oswin's seem to be closer to what I said?... What does it mean? Am I Te? Is she Ti? Is it Ne?


Relax, I have no doubt you're ENTP!!



> The "Why are you depressed?" question, ugh. I don't know.one day I just woke up and decided to feel empty.


Oh yes, or the "you should be more positive and stop being so anxious!" Oh shit, I hadn't thought of that! I could just choose not to be irrationally scared of things! WHAT A REVELATION! HURRAY I'M CURED!!



Oswin said:


> 3. Not convinced of introversion. It's just that....I fill up the gas tank at least twice, sometimes three times a week. I just go driving, I hate being stuck in the house. I'm not going to parties or anything mostly 'cause no one invites me to parties but I can't sit in the house all day, I have to go out and do something or I'll explode. I freak out if I don't have a computer or _something_ attaching me to the outside world: seriously freak out, I'll feel really trapped and bored and hopeless and upset. If I was trapped in a room alone I don't even know what I'd do, I'd claw my way out, I do not like the feeling of having no outlet or connection with other people.


Could indicate Ne-dom. It's not uncommon for them to be less extraverted in the social sense.



> 4. Not convinced of extroversion either. I was in a really good mood after the drive, the sky was the prettiest pink and I was trying to keep this feeling with me, it was completely pristine and wonderful, I walked in my house and everyone was being so loud, laughing garishly and being completely opposite of everything nice, I felt genuinely angry, I considered for a moment putting in earplugs before I even go into my house (but dismissed said suggestion as neurotic and weird). But, I mean, seriously -- and I get this a lot. All the time.


I'm not sure if this is just Fi dominance or whether it's a high Fi thing in general, but we like the outer to match the inner. If you're not feeling the mood in the room, you'll want to be in an environment which does match that. The obvious solution is to remove yourself. I feel like Fe is more flexible than that. 



> 5. Not convinced of Fi. I mean, I can believe Fi, but I don't know how to explain my Fe things. How I put a lot of stock in others' opinions of me, and let myself be externally defined, how I'll be really prone to unhealthy-Fe things like buying brand names or really expensive things purely to supposedly raise my image (even though it's not really so) and this sort of pretention and such. Doesn't seem to jive well with Fi-Te.


Well are you sure of your Enneagram? Because you're sx/so to start off with - your connections with other people make you less insular than me, for example, as sp/sx. Then you've got a 1 core, so you're more heavily focused on being perfect than simply being yourself, like an Fi-dom 4 might be. The 6 gut fix needs to feel secure, so I'm going to assume you also look outwards for that. And your heart fix is 2, which is all about turning your own needs outward. So even with those couple of connections to 4, you're still not going to be anywhere near as individualistic as a lot of IxFP's. I don't think that necessarily excludes Fi, though.


----------



## Greyhart

@ElliCat wow that's a HUGE wall of text response. xD



> I wonder if it's an ENxP thing vs. INxP thing. Now that I think about it, by ENTP is more likely to "admit" to speaking a language while I'm waffling about, "well, I only know a couple of words, and I can't get by in many situations, so I don't know if I'd feel right to say that I speak it, but...." >_<


Haha, nah IRL I keep telling my mom that I am not THAT great with English. Sure, I don't read translated books and watch media without subtitles, but because of the way I got to this point I can't translate well or even speak coherently. I have a very poor _Russian word->to->English word_ or vice versa internal vocabulary. I just understand words by knowing what they mean. So when asked to translate to Russian I end up just describing the meaning because I can't pick a precise Russian word for it. I'm also pretty sure most of the time I apply Russian sentence building to English.

I'm bilingual because of where I live (both Russian and Ukrainian taught equally in my school). Third language is Bulgarian because of my step-dad but tbh I'm awful when I actually need to speak it. It has too many articles for me to bother learning to use them properly. And English because I needed it for games and other media. I actually have no drive or interest in putting effort into studying language in regular words/rules/grammar way. It either sticks organically or fuck it. Though I'd love to get some Nordic language into my head but uuuugh studying from the basics.



> Coherency? What coherency? I can never think of the right words on the spot. Even when I'm writing I have to revise my wording like 5 times before it gets anywhere close to what I want.


Have you seen mine?  People can tell what words you are speaking = coherent.



> Relax, I have no doubt you're ENTP!!


But what does it mean for @Curiphant and @Oswin? O:

So guys I think this song was written by NP but NFP or NTP? As much as I like it probably NFP. Y/N?


----------



## Dangerose

@ElliCat thank you so much for your commentary! I'm too tired too respond in kind but everything you've said is duly noted; thank you for taking the time to give such thoughtful responses) I relate to a lot (most) of what you've said but I'm quite sure about the functions/function order so I'll have to ponder more)

I'm pretty sure of my Enneagram; maybe that's it...not sure about the instincts though; I'm pretty sure I'm sx first but less sure about so vs sp. I like so more so I put it up higher but in reality it might be sp)

Yeah, the language thing is funny...completely agree with this bit:


> ""Once I've started to learn a langauge, it feels like I should know it already." Exactly. And when people start telling you about their friend who went on exchange for a year to Germany and came back fluent in German, it fills your head with unrealistic ideas (especially considering a monolingual English speaker's definition of "fluent in a foreign language" is probably not the same as mine, which is "fluent in a foreign language"). I'm at a B2 level in Finnish, which in practical terms means I can get by in most everyday situations and can understand a fair bit of what's going on around me. But when people ask me if I speak any Finnish, I still reply with "yes, a little". It's going to continue to be "a little" until I'm 100% fluent.


Though, I've had it before that I've said like, "I speak a little Russian" and then people start talking about me in Russian and I'm sitting there like  should I tell them I know what they're saying? so I've been trying to hit people with my best attempt at the language to start off with so there's not awkwardness. But I also want to double (or triple)-underrate language ability to monolingual English speakers, because they'll find out that I know how to say 'quiet' in Italian and take that to mean I'm totally fluent :/

language-speaking is just awkward all around
@Greyhart I'm pretty sure that this:


> Haha, nah IRL I keep telling my mom that I am not THAT great with English. Sure, I don't read translated books and watch media without subtitles, but because of the way I got to this point I can't translate well or even speak coherently. I have a very poor Russian word->to->English word or vice versa internal vocabulary. I just understand words by knowing what they mean. So when asked to translate to Russian I end up just describing the meaning because I can't pick a precise Russian word for it. I'm also pretty sure most of the time I apply Russian sentence building to English.


is a sign of speaking English well, languages don't actually have a 1:1 correlation so if you understand the core meaning of the English word instead of the approximate Russian translation that's better...not good for translating, but that's a separate skill.
I'm blown away by your vocabulary in English; I don't think you have to worry.


----------



## fair phantom

@Oswin adding to what @ElliCat said: 1 does seem to be the correct core for you and as a "superego" type it would make sense that you would be at least somewhat concerned with external standards (both for yourself and others) no matter what your functions are.


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> @ElliCat wow that's a HUGE wall of text response. xD


Sorry. XD I kept collecting quotes so I wouldn't forget who to reply to, and then I just started writing and kept going until I was done. #infpproblems



> Haha, nah IRL I keep telling my mom that I am not THAT great with English. Sure, I don't read translated books and watch media without subtitles, but because of the way I got to this point I can't translate well or even speak coherently. I have a very poor _Russian word->to->English word_ or vice versa internal vocabulary. I just understand words by knowing what they mean. So when asked to translate to Russian I end up just describing the meaning because I can't pick a precise Russian word for it. I'm also pretty sure most of the time I apply Russian sentence building to English.


Well I've never heard you speak (duh) but your writing is quite good, I think. Of course there are some grammatical errors here and there, but your spelling is excellent and your posts are easy to read.

If it helps, my IxFP friends and I mix languages all the time! It's not uncommon for someone to be halfway through a sentence in one language, forget what the next word is, and then just use one of the 2 - 4 other translations before continuing on in the original language. Makes it a bit awkward when you don't all speak the same languages though...



> I'm bilingual because of where I live (both Russian and Ukrainian taught equally in my school). Third language is Bulgarian because of my step-dad but tbh I'm awful when I actually need to speak it. It has too many articles for me to bother learning to use them properly. And English because I needed it for games and other media. I actually have no drive or interest in putting effort into studying language in regular words/rules/grammar way. It either sticks organically or fuck it. Though I'd love to get some Nordic language into my head but uuuugh studying from the basics.


Yeah I've noticed the Ukranians in my class all speak Russian, Ukrainian, English, and usually at least the basics of one or two other languages. How close is Russian and Ukrainian? I can't tell the difference yet. *blushes*



> Have you seen mine?  People can tell what words you are speaking = coherent.


You have a video? :O



> But what does it mean for @Curiphant and @Oswin? O:


I don't know! My gut feeling is that Curiphant is ENFP and that Oswin is xNFP but I can't back it up with very much yet.



> So guys I think this song was written by NP but NFP or NTP? As much as I like it probably NFP. Y/N?


I don't feel confident typing by song but it's catchy.


----------



## Greyhart

ElliCat said:


> Sorry. XD I kept collecting quotes so I wouldn't forget who to reply to, and then I just started writing and kept going until I was done. #infpproblems


Nah I do the same.



> Well I've never heard you speak (duh)





> You have a video? :O


behold http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...4-video-questionnaire-im-obnoxious-point.html



> but your writing is quite good, I think. Of course there are some grammatical errors here and there, but your spelling is excellent and your posts are easy to read.














> If it helps, my IxFP friends and I mix languages all the time! It's not uncommon for someone to be halfway through a sentence in one language, forget what the next word is, and then just use one of the 2 - 4 other translations before continuing on in the original language. Makes it a bit awkward when you don't all speak the same languages though...


I regularly forget Russian word but come up with English and then have to describe the word I am trying to use since most of my RL friends don't understand English. >_<



> Yeah I've noticed the Ukranians in my class all speak Russian, Ukrainian, English, and usually at least the basics of one or two other languages. *How close is Russian and Ukrainian?* I can't tell the difference yet. *blushes*


Closer than Japanese is to Chinese. Well, Ukrainian grammar is slightly easier. Sentence structure is pretty much the same. Punctuation rules are close too. Alphabet is also slightly different. Aside from words that came from other languages (taxi, poni, scientific terms) the words are very different. Ukrainians whose first language is Russian also have a distinct accent. Well, to me my friends from Russia have an accent.  Kinda like British & American accents, I think.



> I don't know! My gut feeling is that Curiphant is ENFP and that Oswin is xNFP but I can't back it up with very much yet.


Poor Curiphant goes in circles. X_X



> I don't feel confident typing by song but it's catchy.


It's one of my favorite songs. One of top 3 tbh. It consists entirely of metaphors, like there's not a single sentence in there that is straightforward. According to Internets it's about shedding imposed bonds of society and following instincts. Ti-Fe? Fi-Te?


----------



## fair phantom

@Greyhart my first impression is NFP, but that may be coloured by my overall impression of Shearwater (_Rook_ is one of my fav albums). However, Ne-Si and Ji is what is most obvious.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> @Greyhart my first impression is NFP, but that may be coloured by my overall impression of Shearwater (_Rook_ is one of my fav albums). However, Ne-Si and Ji is what is most obvious.


I think theme of the song is more fitting for Fi than low-order Fe.


----------



## orbit

INTP->ENTP->ESFP->ESTP->ESFP->EXXP->EXFP?

Circles, eh? It's okay. Apparently I haven't developed strong preferences yet so it's hard to differentiate and type me. Maybethat'swhyI'msoclearheaded. Donthaveanystrongfunctionstomesswithme. 

I thought your dominant function was supposed to be obvious by age 13 ><


----------



## Immolate

So much to read.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> INTP->ENTP->ESFP->ESTP->ESFP->EXXP->EXFP?
> 
> Circles, eh? It's okay. Apparently I haven't developed strong preferences yet so it's hard to differentiate and type me. Maybethat'swhyI'msoclearheaded. Donthaveanystrongfunctionstomesswithme.
> 
> I thought your dominant function was supposed to be obvious by age 13 ><


Apparently, your tertiary function appears during teenage years. Well, at least we're sure your dominant is a perceiving function now. :dry:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Apparently, your tertiary function appears during teenage years.


This explains everything.


----------



## To_august

ElliCat said:


> I can relate to it in the sense that I'm interested in those things and sometimes want guidance in things like playing host, decorating the home, etc. But I don't believe that's _all_ there is to Si, especially like you said, in a more dominant position in the stack, it should be far more nuanced than that! And I question how much is due to me being a self-preservation variant in Enneagram... obviously my focus is going to be on things like that anyway.


I've been wondering about how SP instinct and Socionics Si overlap too. As much as I can say, they seem like the same thing to me, lol.
I'm not well-versed in Enneagram, but when I got a glimpse on instinctual variants SP made the most sense. I gave up on instincts in the end, as I found out that I don't relate profoundly to any of the three instincts (it may well be that my ignorance on the matter), but SP made the most sense in terms of me not wanting to get stabbed in a dark alley, so I tend to "self-preserve" and avoid shifty-looking places. But that must be a stretch to tell that such behaviour is enough to call myself SP.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Apparently, your tertiary function appears during teenage years. Well, at least we're sure your dominant is a perceiving function now. :dry:


I don't believe that. I guess it's possible, but ... children are exposed to a lot of things that could easily activate their lower functions. Looking back at my own childhood, Ti and Ne were certainly in play from a very young age. I think we use all four, to varying degrees, but that we confuse one function for another (a lot of what I mistook as "thinking" as a kid was just plain old Si).



alittlebear said:


> Let me dream
> 
> I changed my very official four letters representing my personality type on Tumblr to ExFJ. So I mean. Where it really counts, your interpretation has won.


 @alittlebear: for what it's worth, I understand where you're coming from, since I was there all week. For some reason, though, I'd embrace the idea of being an ENFJ WAY MORE than an ESFJ, I think just because there's such awful stigmata about them online. ENFJs are wonderful visionary souls and ESFJs are the interfering mother bears who are totally irrational, right?

But wait... both have inferior Ti! And yet, I've met completely rational Fe-doms. I've met Fe-doms who love to have intensely analytical conversations. The distinction seems to be that ESFJs are much more hands on and emphasize DOING THINGS, whereas ENFJs seem more interested in the concept of doing it. 

Your tendency to believe in absolutes and not see dual possibilities at once (or at least, not enjoy seeing them) still makes me suspect you're ENFJ over ESFJ. Either that or your Ne isn't all that well developed in terms of multiple interpretations yet. But you are quite young, and my Ne didn't start doing that until I got a bit older (of course, I think mine's inferior, so...).
@hoopla: however many posts back (I can't seem to find it, and am too lazy to keep reading backwards) you said something quite nice about me. Thank you, and you're right -- I need to stop speaking negatively about myself, both in real life and online. I might even be creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by doing that. I'll quit.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I don't believe that. I guess it's possible, but ... children are exposed to a lot of things that could easily activate their lower functions. Looking back at my own childhood, Ti and Ne were certainly in play from a very young age. I think we use all four, to varying degrees, but that we confuse one function for another (a lot of what I mistook as "thinking" as a kid was just plain old Si).


Haha, tell me about it, I can't even tell which functions I was using as a child, it's hard enough determining between 8 now, along with Enneagram and Socionics. :laughing: As for why I said that, well, one, I did hear it from a friend, and two, it's obvious that since your primary is the one you have the most experience with, you would have used it before that, and possibly the auxiliary in conjunction. And adulthood is too late for anything besides your inferior, perhaps, so it makes sense to me.


----------



## ElliCat

Oswin said:


> Though, I've had it before that I've said like, "I speak a little Russian" and then people start talking about me in Russian and I'm sitting there like  should I tell them I know what they're saying? so I've been trying to hit people with my best attempt at the language to start off with so there's not awkwardness.


Wow, that's awkward! And kind of rude. I always wait until someone's left if I'm going to say things they wouldn't want to hear. You never, ever know how good their hearing is, or what languages they understand.

The way it usually bites me in the bum is that often people interpret, "a little" to be "a few words", and so they'll just go back to speaking English. There seems to be this expectation that a native English speaker will just rely on the fact that most people here do speak at least some English, and therefore won't put much effort into learning any other language. It is somewhat true, too: I've come across a lot who say it's too difficult and that there's no time for them to study (usually women who've married Finnish men and have kids). But it's frustrating because it means that either they won't let me practice my Finnish, or they're so surprised by the fact that I speak any at all that they go on about how awesome I am and it's like... _I don't have the heart to tell you I don't understand 1/3 of what you're saying to me_. 



> But I also want to double (or triple)-underrate language ability to monolingual English speakers, because they'll find out that I know how to say 'quiet' in Italian and take that to mean I'm totally fluent :/


Yeah. And then they start telling other people, "OMG DID YOU KNOW THAT ELLICAT SPEAKS LIKE FLUENT SPANISH? SHE WAS SO AWESOME AT JAPANESE IN HIGH SCHOOL, SHE'S JUST SUPER TALENTED AT LANGUAGES FULL STOP!!" Please, just because I actually paid attention in class and you didn't, doesn't mean I'm a linguistic genius and you're not. It just means you were even lazier than I am. XD



> @Greyhart I'm pretty sure that this:
> 
> is a sign of speaking English well, languages don't actually have a 1:1 correlation so if you understand the core meaning of the English word instead of the approximate Russian translation that's better...not good for translating, but that's a separate skill.
> I'm blown away by your vocabulary in English; I don't think you have to worry.


I've had quite a few language teachers say that you _shouldn't_ be trying to translate each word in your head as you go. You should be doing, well, pretty much what Greyhart is doing. Translation is really difficult and there's a reason why you have to study it first...



Greyhart said:


> behold http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...4-video-questionnaire-im-obnoxious-point.html


OMG TOTES ADORBS <3



> Closer than Japanese is to Chinese. Well, Ukrainian grammar is slightly easier. Sentence structure is pretty much the same. Punctuation rules are close too. Alphabet is also slightly different. Aside from words that came from other languages (taxi, poni, scientific terms) the words are very different. Ukrainians whose first language is Russian also have a distinct accent. Well, to me my friends from Russia have an accent.  Kinda like British & American accents, I think.


Okay, I wondered if it was like Finnish and Estonian, where you could still see a lot of similarities even though they are considered separate languages. I get what you mean with the accent thingy, the Finnish-Swedish speakers have a different accent to the Swedish Swedish speakers too.



> It's one of my favorite songs. One of top 3 tbh. It consists entirely of metaphors, like there's not a single sentence in there that is straightforward. According to Internets it's about shedding imposed bonds of society and following instincts. Ti-Fe? Fi-Te?


I'm going to guess that it's more Fi-ish. Don't quote me on that though. Maybe Ti-Fe shares similar sentiments too?



To_august said:


> I've been wondering about how SP instinct and Socionics Si overlap too. As much as I can say, they seem like the same thing to me, lol.
> I'm not well-versed in Enneagram, but when I got a glimpse on instinctual variants SP made the most sense. I gave up on instincts in the end, as I found out that I don't relate profoundly to any of the three instincts (it may well be that my ignorance on the matter), but SP made the most sense in terms of me not wanting to get stabbed in a dark alley, so I tend to "self-preserve" and avoid shifty-looking places. But that must be a stretch to tell that such behaviour is enough to call myself SP.


Oh I'm glad it's not just me!

Sp was the clearest for me because 1. I'm sensitive to my own comfort in the environment and 2. I need to feel like I have enough resources before I reach out to others. "Resources", not only food and shelter and money but also just energy in general. I feel like I need to look after myself if I'm to be of any use to anyone else. And I feel much more comfortable relying on myself than on someone else - I could never be a housewife for that reason, being financially dependant on my partner just messes with my head and my self-worth. 

After that I'm very much about looking after my intimates and seeking connections with people that I feel a "spark" with. I would never deny that society is necessary, but it's just not a huge focus of mine. I'm trying to pay more attention to it but in the past it has very much been a blindspot for me. I'm still really awful in larger groups. Don't know how to divide my attention. I tend to lock in on one or two person when discussing a subject and don't realise I'm leaving other people out of it until it's too late.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Haha, tell me about it, I can't even tell which functions I was using as a child, it's hard enough determining between 8 now, along with Enneagram and Socionics. :laughing: As for why I said that, well, one, I did hear it from a friend, and two, it's obvious that since your primary is the one you have the most experience with, you would have used it before that, and possibly the auxiliary in conjunction. And adulthood is too late for anything besides your inferior, perhaps, so it makes sense to me.



I've read your tertiary develops during early adulthood while your inferior is more relevant in middle adulthood? Whatever the case, I agree it varies on experience. I was a mopey Fi kid


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Your tendency to believe in absolutes and *not see dual possibilities at once (or at least, not enjoy seeing them)* still makes me suspect you're ENFJ over ESFJ. Either that or your Ne isn't all that well developed in terms of multiple interpretations yet. But you are quite young, and my Ne didn't start doing that until I got a bit older (of course, I think mine's inferior, so...).


Wouldn't that also apply to Si, especially when Ne is in an inferior position?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I've read your tertiary develops during early adulthood while your inferior is more relevant in middle adulthood? Whatever the case, I agree it varies on experience. I was a mopey Fi kid


Well, hey, information does vary, especially when it comes to any kind of personality theory. From what I recall (my memory's shit, so no guarantees for its accuracy.  ), I was a pretty Ne focused child, always wanted escapism, and had hell of a temper. I remember this one time that this schoolmate gave me a black eye, which I had for my school photo, it was pretty cool. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, hey, information does vary, especially when it comes to any kind of personality theory. From what I recall (my memory's shit, so no guarantees for its accuracy.  ), I was a pretty Ne focused child, always wanted escapism, and had hell of a temper. I remember this one time that *this schoolmate gave me a black eye*, which I had for my school photo, it was pretty cool. :laughing:


That's terrible :shocked:

I did my best to avoid school pictures (and events and pep rallies and ceremonies)


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Apparently, your tertiary function appears during teenage years. Well, at least we're sure your dominant is a perceiving function now. :dry:


I don't think so. I mean, "appears". I don't think we are ever half-brained. Just use less developed versions of functions. Maybe tertiary gets to the point where it actually does any good? I keep thinking about this like a talent progression in RPG games. Your fireball might suck right now but put some points into improving it and it now has giant radius, causes DoT, and has a chance of sending another fireball cost-free.



ElliCat said:


> Wow, that's awkward! And kind of rude. I always wait until someone's left if I'm going to say things they wouldn't want to hear. You never, ever know how good their hearing is, or what languages they understand.
> 
> The way it usually bites me in the bum is that often people interpret, "a little" to be "a few words", and so they'll just go back to speaking English. There seems to be this expectation that a native English speaker will just rely on the fact that most people here do speak at least some English, and therefore won't put much effort into learning any other language. It is somewhat true, too: I've come across a lot who say it's too difficult and that there's no time for them to study (usually women who've married Finnish men and have kids). But it's frustrating because it means that either they won't let me practice my Finnish, or they're so surprised by the fact that I speak any at all that they go on about how awesome I am and it's like... *I don't have the heart to tell you I don't understand 1/3 of what you're saying to me*.


I that would happen to me I'd like other person to outright tell me they can't understand that much. *shrug* I don't think I'd be upset in any way. 



> I've had quite a few language teachers say that you _shouldn't_ be trying to translate each word in your head as you go. You should be doing, well, pretty much what Greyhart is doing. Translation is really difficult and there's a reason why you have to study it first...


What I did was: read untranslated book, come across a word I don't understand, I should look for exact translation in the dictionary buuuut that would require breaking from the book... ... screw it, guess meaning of the word by the rest of the sentence and proceed. Laziness is a godmother of progress.



> OMG TOTES ADORBS <3


blushu



> Okay, I wondered if it was like Finnish and Estonian, where you could still see a lot of similarities even though they are considered separate languages. I get what you mean with the accent thingy, the Finnish-Swedish speakers have a different accent to the Swedish Swedish speakers too.


Due to the years of being a deep weeaboo I understand differences between Japanese and Chinese better than any other 2, except for Ukrainian and Russian. :| 



> I'm going to guess that it's more Fi-ish. Don't quote me on that though. Maybe Ti-Fe shares similar sentiments too?


Possibly. I'm only basing this on one song and the biggest part of it is Ne. I think however the way Ne metaphors are delivered point towards some deep personal sentiment. I could look for Shearwater's other songs or interviews but that would spoil the mystery.  



> Oh I'm glad it's not just me!
> 
> Sp was the clearest for me because 1. I'm sensitive to my own comfort in the environment and 2. I need to feel like I have enough resources before I reach out to others. "Resources", not only food and shelter and money but also just energy in general. I feel like I need to look after myself if I'm to be of any use to anyone else. And I feel much more comfortable relying on myself than on someone else - I could never be a housewife for that reason, being financially dependant on my partner just messes with my head and my self-worth.
> 
> After that I'm very much about looking after my intimates and seeking connections with people that I feel a "spark" with. I would never deny that society is necessary, but it's just not a huge focus of mine. I'm trying to pay more attention to it but in the past it has very much been a blindspot for me. I'm still really awful in larger groups. Don't know how to divide my attention. I tend to lock in on one or two person when discussing a subject and don't realise I'm leaving other people out of it until it's too late.


My health was horrible since I was a kid. I think this caused me to grow up being very careful about my well-being and safety. After all there's only so many times you can end up with pneumonia (or an asthma attack without inhaler) before you start checking yourself. And the second would be, I grew up in poverty. Back in the 90s we had no food sometimes. So I am stingy about my money and careful to make sure that I have a place to sleep.

I'm pretty sure So is my last too. Sx/Sp descriptions for type 7 seem to be too self-destructive to me, Sp/Sx about right. I don't relate to So except for being good with crowds.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> That's terrible :shocked:
> 
> I did my best to avoid school pictures (and events and pep rallies and ceremonies)


Nah, I used it to get him in trouble, and I kind of like how he was able to do that. :wink:

School photos... maybe it's just my introvertedness, but I saw, and see, them as pointless, just showing the passage of time.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Wouldn't that also apply to Si, especially when Ne is in an inferior position?


In usual instances, yes ... but I think we can all agree she's a Fe-dom. SO MUCH Fe (and she identifies with the inferior Ti grip behavior). In an EFSJ ... we ought to be see more Ne than we are, right? 

ESFJs are good at brainstorming, flipping from one thing to the next, often lose their train of thought and go down rabbit trails in conversation... they are fairly high in the Ne department.

I used to think my dad an ENFP, but I'm pretty sure now he's an ESFJ. His Ne is so high, I can see why I mistyped him at first. BIG PICTURE. Lots of ideas. Huge knowledge bank of Si, upon which he draws from to predict things accurately. Reads really abstract things and has no problem following them, then gets annoyed when my mom (ISTJ) can't follow along. His morals are constantly fluctuating and shifting with new information; he's changed churches, political parties, diet plans, etc. Forever chasing the ideal abstract dream, yet a solid businessman and one of the nicest people anyone has ever met. Incredibly compassionate. 

Regarding my own type, my mother has said many times, "You two (me and dad) are EXACTLY ALIKE." Except I don't spend nearly as much money as he does (he gets bored, and goes off on these binge spending sprees, but it's all for us -- stuff to entertain US, puzzles, little pool tables, basketball hoops, etc) or get involved in causes as often. I'm the one saying, "Wait, what about...?" I think that's the E/I divide, or maybe I've just learned from all his mistakes. 

(Then too, I have fears that I may need money in the future, because I don't know what might happen -- so I mostly horde mine and resent spending money much at all. And if I do spend a lot on a whim, I feel guilty about it and worry about not having enough later. Hello, are you inferior Ne? I suspect you are.)

I don't know how to really describe Si/Ne in ESXJs ... but it's certainly visible in them. More visible than in @alittlebear (sorry, third person referencing again, haha) and yet... when I look at her, all I see is Fe. Mega-level Fe.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Nah, I used it to get him in trouble, and I kind of like how he was able to do that. :wink:
> 
> School photos... maybe it's just my introvertedness, but I saw, and see, them as pointless, just showing the passage of time.


You're quite the interesting person :laughing:

I also consider them pointless. I think the only benefit would be for your parents if they care about that sort of thing.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> In usual instances, yes ... but I think we can all agree she's a Fe-dom. SO MUCH Fe.


Possibly. Some of her Fe reads as anxiety, like changing clothes when she realizes no one else is wearing anything similar.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Possibly. Some of her Fe reads as anxiety, like changing clothes when she realizes no one else is wearing anything similar.


I'm not really talking about that. I'm more referencing her general approach on the forums, and how strongly she asserts her Fe-opinions. 

(Added more to the original post, about Fe/Ne.)

I GUESS she could be an ISFJ, but ... if she is, why did she identify so strongly with inferior Ti?


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> I don't think so. I mean, "appears". I don't think we are ever half-brained. Just use less developed versions of functions. Maybe tertiary gets to the point where it actually does any good? I keep thinking about this like a talent progression in RPG games. Your fireball might suck right now but put some points into improving it and it now has giant radius, causes DoT, and has a chance of sending another fireball cost-free.


Ooh, an RPG metaphor, I love that genre. :laughing: But fair enough, I don't even know what type I am, so me disputing it seems kinda pointless.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> You're quite the interesting person :laughing:
> 
> I also consider them pointless. I think the only benefit would be for your parents if they care about that sort of thing.


Why thank you. :wink:

Yeah, let's put them on display so that everyone can see how horrible we look. :dry: Seriously, I'm the least photogenic person I know.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I'm not really talking about that. I'm more referencing her general approach on the forums, and how strongly she asserts her Fe-opinions.
> 
> (Added more to the original post, about Fe/Ne.)
> 
> I GUESS she could be an ISFJ, but ... if she is, why did she identify so strongly with inferior Ti?


We could say it's what we mostly see because it's her first extroverted function. Either way, I don't see Si-dom and Ne-inferior completely out of the picture.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> For some reason, though, I'd embrace the idea of being an ENFJ WAY MORE than an ESFJ, I think just because there's such awful stigmata about them online. ENFJs are wonderful visionary souls and ESFJs are the interfering mother bears who are totally irrational, right?


You've actually landed on the reason that I would identify more as ESFJ than ENFJ. One, I don't want to falsely identify as the "special type" only to find out I'm actually _that_ type. It seems quite self-anounced. If someone asked me my personality type, I would say ENFJ and they would go look at those flowery, mystic descriptions... and that might not actually be me? Eek. It's still true that I don't fit the ESFJ description much either, so they would probably have a hard time believing that as well, but better that than Mystic Prophet Leader Harmonizer like they say about ENFJ. 

Also... Hey. We need to break stereotypes. (This might come out weird, hang with me for this explanation.) Even if I'm not an SFJ, I like countering people's expectations of them - being, say, a History/English Major and posting almost solely about works of literature online. That's not the picture one would have of an ESFJ. (Also, ESFJ studying to be a professor??? Of comparative religion??? It might be false, but I'm sure that I can represent ESFJs out there who do enjoy thinking theologically and striving forward in academia, and that makes me quite happy somehow. I don't know. I feel this point is a little self-absorbed, but it's there.) 



> Your tendency to believe in absolutes and not see dual possibilities at once (or at least, not enjoy seeing them) still makes me suspect you're ENFJ over ESFJ. Either that or your Ne isn't all that well developed in terms of multiple interpretations yet. But you are quite young, and my Ne didn't start doing that until I got a bit older (of course, I think mine's inferior, so...).


I also want to clarify about the one truth. I believe that there is one truth (one multifaceted truth, that I cannot explain as quiply as I hear INFJs do) but that none of us can quite grasp it. Least of all, perhaps, me. But I still seek to grasp it wherever I go. I listen with an open mind to perceptions different from my own. I try to find that pieces of the truth that others have touched (even when their words are filled with other fallacies), and I try to poke their discoveries of the truth into my own, even - and especially - if those pieces of truth make me uncomfortable. 

It's not like I just think I'm right all the time. It's not that at all. I actually am prone to thinking I am _not_ right all the time, because I understand that false truths are illusive and I am certainly not immune to them, especially as one who claims to seek it. I am often researching concepts that rub me the wrong way, so I can see if they run me the wrong way because they are wrong, or if they rub me the wrong way because they contain an uncomfortable truth. I love to engage in dialogue (perhaps not here, I'm a bit feisty on her when it comes to dissenting opinions, but offline frequently) with those I disagree with, and try to see where they are coming from and the validity of what they say... I like to step outside of my own bias to find the truth, and I recognize that it exists regardless of my flawed perception. 

(This is also why I am open to expanding my thoughts. It's why on typing threads I will agree that this character is INFP - THE INFP - only to switch to saying that she is in fact INTJ when a more convincing argument comes along. Not as important of a truth matter, but it's still me being flip floppity... or seeming to be flip floppity. What you don't see is me absorbing the arguments for the types, and trying to see which one has the most weight.) (I think a lot of people do this on typing threads, but I think one could make the comment that I am very inconsistent, especially considering that most the time I come on a thread with a question more than a typing suggestion.)

A bit long-winded, but I wanted to clarify because I think my speaking about my desire for truth has wrought some misunderstandings about what I mean by this.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I GUESS she could be an ISFJ, but ... if she is, why did she identify so strongly with inferior Ti?


That's what gets me too. The inferior Ti descriptions fit me way too well, I think.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> You've actually landed on the reason that I would identify more as ESFJ than ENFJ. One, I don't want to falsely identify as the "special type" only to find out I'm actually _that_ type. It seems quite self-anounced. If someone asked me my personality type, I would say ENFJ and they would go look at those flowery, mystic descriptions... and that might not actually be me? Eek. It's still true that I don't fit the ESFJ description much either, so they would probably have a hard time believing that as well, but better that than Mystic Prophet Leader Harmonizer like they say about ENFJ.


INFJs are the TRULY special snowflakes, poor things. And yet there are SO MANY OF THEM online. Makes one wonder, doesn't it? 



> Also... Hey. We need to break stereotypes. (This might come out weird, hang with me for this explanation.) Even if I'm not an SFJ, I like countering people's expectations of them - being, say, a History/English Major and posting almost solely about works of literature online. That's not the picture one would have of an ESFJ. (Also, ESFJ studying to be a professor??? Of comparative religion??? It might be false, but I'm sure that I can represent ESFJs out there who do enjoy thinking theologically and striving forward in academia, and that makes me quite happy somehow. I don't know. I feel this point is a little self-absorbed, but it's there.)


Ha, ha. You know, when I first realized I was an SFJ -- I was pissed off. And then, like you, I decided, "WELL THEN, I SHALL BREAK THE STEREOTYPES AND LIBERATE MY FELLOW SJs FROM STIGMATA." 

It took me awhile to adjust to the idea, though. And if it turns out one day that I'm an ESFJ, the same thing will happen -- denial, resistance, anger, acceptance, and then, "Well, I will break the stereotypes for ESFJs as having no interest in anything except children and housework!" 

Regarding your Ne -- ah, okay. So it's there but not directly visible to us. That makes sense.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat Would you say my want to find that truth is Ne? (I'm not sure what it is.)

Also... yes. The stereotypes for ESFJs are awful. Even the videos on YouTube. Literally housewife who wants to be as Normal as possible. _No_ one is like that, not even the for-sure ESFJs I know. (I will say the moms that my family has to interact with in the district my family goes to school in are _kind of_ like that, but even then they're only doing it to fit in with the group... I'm sure that they still cherish being individuals and have their unique quirks... You get a good sense of this when you get them in their houses without the group, usually.)


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat Would you say my want to find that truth is Ne? (I'm not sure what it is.)


I think Ne wants as broad a perspective as it can get, but that Si/Ne desires a single conclusion or truth _where it matters_. (One reason I left this thread for awhile is it was going in typing circles and never reaching any firm conclusions, and I found that frustrating.) One of the primary problems with Si/Ne, in my own experience, is that I want to reach an absolute conclusion, but even if I do, there's a nagging Ne-ish feeling in the back of my mind, asking, "What if there is information you haven't accessed yet that puts what you do know in a new light? What if in typing this character you're relying too much on stereotypes and not considering everything?"

Some things are absolute truths in my mind -- such as my faith -- but even there, Ne niggles at me. What if you're wrong? So, I grow, and I read more, and I expand my knowledge, and my worldview shifts while only the moral absolutes or core beliefs remain the same. The externals all shift and weave and change, as I do in general. Very little about me remains the same over the years.



> Also... yes. The stereotypes for ESFJs are awful. Even the videos on YouTube. Literally housewife who wants to be as Normal as possible. _No_ one is like that, not even the for-sure ESFJs I know. *(I will say the moms that my family has to interact with in the district my family goes to school in are kind of like that, but even then they're only doing it to fit in with the group... I'm sure that they still cherish being individuals and have their unique quirks... You get a good sense of this when you get them in their houses without the group, usually.)*


Ahh, there's the NE! Assert something, then backtrack and argue the opposing side. Nice. 

We must remember... there were ESFJ suffragettes breaking the law and stirring the crowd to win the vote for women -- something that would change EVERYTHING. There are ESFJ writers, artists, and musicians. Their Ne makes them whimsical and fun to be around. Their Si gives them an incredible knowledge bank for the things that interest them. Etc. 

The stereotypes made me hesitate in typing my dad as one, because ... he's emotional, but not irrational. He's actually one of the most profound, deep, continually-searching people I have ever known. He could talk to anyone about anything in-depth. And he is certainly not boring. 

Have you seen the BBC series "North and South," by Elizabeth Gaskell? Margaret Hale is a picture-perfect ESFJ. She is a little stereotypical (resistant to too much change all at once, sentimental about her old life for awhile, until she realizes it was all romanticism) but ... I think you might like her.


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> I that would happen to me I'd like other person to outright tell me they can't understand that much. *shrug* I don't think I'd be upset in any way.


Yes, but:



> What I did was: read untranslated book, come across a word I don't understand, I should look for exact translation in the dictionary buuuut that would require breaking from the book... ... screw it, guess meaning of the word by the rest of the sentence and proceed. Laziness is a godmother of progress.


is also how I learn. If I tell them I don't understand, what do they do? 9 times out of 10 they switch to English, because it's easier to speak a language both of you are fluent in than to try to dumb down your mother tongue for someone whose level of proficiency you can't really determine. So if we end up speaking English, I never learn how to make conversation in any other language. If I struggle through, well, it's awkward at the time but in the long run it really helps me.

I could probably get around it by prefacing every conversation with, "I don't want you to speak any English to me." But I feel so awkward to start off with, and it feels so inefficient to add all that extra stuff at the beginning.



> Due to the years of being a deep weeaboo I understand differences between Japanese and Chinese better than any other 2, except for Ukrainian and Russian. :|


Ah okay. Well, Japanese and Chinese doesn't really give me much of an idea because I know they're quite different, and only kind of share one alphabet (which even then is used differently in both languages). But it's kind of hard to make comparisons when people have vastly different areas of expertise, I know. XD



> *My health was horrible since I was a kid. I think this caused me to grow up being very careful about my well-being and safety. After all there's only so many times you can end up with pneumonia (or an asthma attack without inhaler) before you start checking yourself.* And the second would be, I grew up in poverty. Back in the 90s we had no food sometimes. So I am stingy about my money and careful to make sure that I have a place to sleep.


Did your health get better? I was pretty sick as a kid too (mostly asthma and allergies, I used to go to school shaking in the winter not just from cold, but from all the steroids I'd taken every morning) but I seem to be relatively healthy as an adult. Asthma comes back after I get some kind of cold or flu but most of the time I can pretend I'm a normal person.

I agree that it does affect your focus though. You learn that your survival does actually depend on these sorts of things. 



> I'm pretty sure So is my last too. Sx/Sp descriptions for type 7 seem to be too self-destructive to me, Sp/Sx about right. I don't relate to So except for being good with crowds.


I'm pretty sure my partner's sx/sp 7 and... yeah. I wouldn't say he's self-destructive but he does forget a lot of what I would call "basic needs". Much more likely to get caught up in some dream/fantasy/interest at a cost to his safety and/or wellbeing. Not that I can't get caught up in my own dreamworld either, but I come crashing down when I get too hungry/cold/sick/whatever! Couple of near-death experiences in the name of "trying something new". But on the other hand he can focus when he has to - he's the main breadwinner at the moment and he's sticking with a job that sucks because if he throws in the towel, it means I probably can't stay. I think he probably has a healthier approach to that sort of thing than I do, which would make sense, because the dominant instinct is the one you're neurotic about, and the last one is your blindspot (at least in theory).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Hmm... Trying to figure out how to verbalized my thoughts. If that's Ne, I've been misunderstanding Ne. I thought Ne was just randomly collecting ideas, latching onto "OH THIS COULD BE TRUE TOO" and just... enjoying not knowing what really is, enjoying perceiving the loose things in life, chalking after them to weigh it against the other things that could be... valuing all ideas equally, because you just _don't know_ what is actually the right idea. 

I recognize that this has to be a false interpretation... but that's how I saw it, admittedly. 

And... That's not what I do. I believe in paradoxes because I think there is a truth in the paradox, buried beneath what does not seem to make any sense. I backtracked and said that the ladies are all individuals and I haven't met one who is stereotypically as ESFJs are described... and then acknowledged (or meant to outwardly acknowledge) that yes, I know people who immediately could seem to be the ESFJ stereotype, but even _they_ are not as they seem at a deeper glance. Grabbing what does not make sense and justifying it into the whole. This is also what I do when I "collect" different theories or approaches. I don't collect them so much as I use them to justify the one truth, make sense of them through that (while perhaps disregarding some of even sometimes most of what is there... because it is very difficult for me to accept something in its entirety.) 

I'm not saying this wouldn't be Ne, but previously I had identified this behavior as the opposite of Ne... I have some misunderstandings about what Ne is, I think.

Edit: also looking up North and South clips now. Thank you for the recommendation


----------



## 68097

Stating something as an absolute, and then countering it with opposing information (all ESFJs are not like this ... but I know some who are, actually) to me, is an indicator of Ne. I do it ALL THE TIME. It actually frustrates some people, because it seems self-contradicting. Higher Ne's can use this to great effect, like the writer Terry Pratchett (INTP) does -- where he will take dual concepts and assert one, then contradict it thereafter to illustrate a subtle point. There IS some element of valuing opposing ideas as true, but I think the internal functions then kick in and interfere. ENXPs are the only Ne's that are TOTALLY like that, I think -- juggling all ideas as equal. INXPs dampen theirs with Fi/Ti and SJs use Si to guide Ne.


----------



## Max

I just slept for 15 hours. I'm not surprised though, considering I managed to stay up for 32 hours.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I just slept for 15 hours. I'm not surprised though, considering I managed to stay up for 32 hours.


:bored:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> :bored:


You missed me, Shiny Babes? You're bored without me? ;D Aww.


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You missed me, Shiny Babes? You're bored without me? ;D Aww.


Typical Lucho 

I'm more surprised you can sleep 15 hours. I have a hard time managing 6.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> Typical Lucho
> 
> I'm more surprised you can sleep 15 hours. I have a hard time managing 6.


Yeah. I usually sleep for between 8-11 hours. Sometimes 6-8 depending on the day. The main problem I have is getting to sleep itself, but once I go to sleep, I am fine. I get a good sleep, usually.

Aw... now I want to hug you and massage you.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Stating something as an absolute, and then countering it with opposing information (all ESFJs are not like this ... but I know some who are, actually) to me, is an indicator of Ne. I do it ALL THE TIME. It actually frustrates some people, because it seems self-contradicting. Higher Ne's can use this to great effect, like the writer Terry Pratchett (INTP) does -- where he will take dual concepts and assert one, then contradict it thereafter to illustrate a subtle point. There IS some element of valuing opposing ideas as true, but I think the internal functions then kick in and interfere. ENXPs are the only Ne's that are TOTALLY like that, I think -- juggling all ideas as equal. INXPs dampen theirs with Fi/Ti and SJs use Si to guide Ne.


I like to dismiss counter arguments in my essays. I will address why the counter argument has value, then shred it to pieces to show how my point must be correct, if the most valid points for this argument are incorrect. 

I was just thinking, and... Of course I'm not an NP, but... It's just weird thinking that could be one of my _lower_ functions that I explore ideas with, piece together truth. I have been approaching learning and expanding my mind and view of the world in this way since I was a little girl. (Then again, I sure as the sky use Ti frequently as well, and a lot more than a lot of people like to think an FJ could. I know it's one of my lower functions, but I refuse to believe that my use of it is inferior. Perhaps it's the same way for my Ne.)


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah. I usually sleep for between 8-11 hours. Sometimes 6-8 depending on the day. The main problem I have is getting to sleep itself, but once I go to sleep, I am fine. I get a good sleep, usually.
> 
> Aw... now I want to hug you and massage you.


A hug and a supply of sleeping medication might work better :laughing: 



alittlebear said:


> I like to dismiss counter arguments in my essays. I will address why the counter argument has value, then shred it to pieces to show how my point must be correct, if the most valid points for this argument are incorrect.
> 
> I was just thinking, and... Of course I'm not an NP, but... It's just weird thinking that could be one of my _lower_ functions that I explore ideas with, piece together truth. I have been approaching learning and expanding my mind and view of the world in this way since I was a little girl. (Then again, I sure as the sky use Ti frequently as well, and a lot more than a lot of people like to think an FJ could. I know it's one of my lower functions, but I refuse to believe that my use of it is inferior. Perhaps it's the same way for my Ne.)


I'm slightly confused because part of a good argument is presenting counterarguments and exploring their worth or lack of worth. Are we attributing this to Ne?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny That's not primarily what I was referring to as Ne in the post. The comment about counter arguments was brought up because it reminded me of what @angelcat mentioned about Terry Pratchett.


----------



## Darkbloom

@LuchIsLurking,tbh no idea,but not ISFJ


----------



## Max

Living dead said:


> @LuchIsLurking,tbh no idea,but not ISFJ


ISFJ? Dudette, we ruled that out a long time ago. We're sure I'm an extrovert of some sort, and we've also ruled out any Te or Fi usage, too, and Intuition in the Dom or Aux posistions. It's clear I have lower Intuition


----------



## Darkbloom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> ISFJ? Dudette, we ruled that out a long time ago. We're sure I'm an extrovert of some sort, and we've also ruled out any Te or Fi usage, too, and Intuition in the Dom or Aux posistions. It's clear I have lower Intuition


Lol then why is there ISFJ written below your name? 

Anyway,I'd go with ESTP


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## Max

Living dead said:


> Lol then why is there ISFJ written below your name?
> 
> Anyway,I'd go with ESTP


Because I haven't got around to changing it yet. I'm on the mobile app. Sorry.

Why? (You might wanna read Angelcat's post below ↓)


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I like to dismiss counter arguments in my essays. I will address why the counter argument has value, then shred it to pieces to show how my point must be correct, if the most valid points for this argument are incorrect.


I do that in my literature; the circumstances must always compel the action, in the sense that there is no other, better rationalized way someone could have gotten out of a situation than the choice they made. I try and think universally -- of all the potential ways they could solve the problem, and then choose a specific one that to me seems inherently logical. 



> (Then again, I sure as the sky use Ti frequently as well, and a lot more than a lot of people like to think an FJ could. I know it's one of my lower functions, but I refuse to believe that my use of it is inferior. Perhaps it's the same way for my Ne.)


You refuse to believe it now, but last night identified with inferior Ti. 

For the record, I have yet to meet an EXFJ who doesn't use Ti a lot. In fact, a lot of the ESFJs I know are better grounded in reality and have more common sense than the ISFJs. Their higher Ne makes them open to greater debate as well, but it's hard for them to abandon their "for the good of all" mindset while doing it.

Basically, the biggest difference I see between ESFJs and ISFJs is -- the ESFJs have a much bigger focus. The good of humanity. The good of mankind. The good of the greater collective group. The ISFJs have a much smaller focus. The good of my family, for example. Family, or friends, trump the larger collective. Extroversion vs Introversion. Extrovert - external focus. Introvert - internal focus.


----------



## Darkbloom

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Because I haven't got around to changing it yet. I'm on the mobile app. Sorry.
> 
> Why?


Because I recently said definitely not ISFJ and ESFJ is not that far from ISFJ:laughing:
I just see you more as...well,not SFJ lol,although I guess an ESFJ in a loop _could_ work,but from my experience I don't think that's what it looks like.


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## Darkbloom

angelcat said:


> Basically, the biggest difference I see between ESFJs and ISFJs is -- the ESFJs have a much bigger focus. The good of humanity. The good of mankind. The good of the greater collective group. The ISFJs have a much smaller focus. The good of my family, for example. Family, or friends, trump the larger collective. Extroversion vs Introversion. Extrovert - external focus. Introvert - internal focus.


I wouldn't agree with that,why would it have anything to do with introversion and extroversion?


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## Max

Living dead said:


> Because I recently said definitely not ISFJ and ESFJ is not that far from ISFJ:laughing:
> I just see you more as...well,not SFJ lol,although I guess an ESFJ in a loop _could_ work,but from my experience I don't think that's what it looks like.


Yeah, but what do you see my function order as, and why? Why do you not see this function in that place? Etc. 

Fair enough. I guess I'm going to have to look at the function loops again. And I am positive of not being an NxP, SFP or STJ. And I can't see INFJ either.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ That's not primarily what I was referring to as Ne in the post. The comment about counter arguments was brought up because it reminded me of what @_angelcat_ mentioned about Terry Pratchett.


The problem I keep running into is that Ni is described as rigid, the one truth, the one path, Ni doesn't like to deviate from its vision, etc. But then Ni is also described as having the ability to deal with paradoxes, to argue both sides, to see all probable outcomes because of the patterns it's stored in its subconscious, to be predictive and prepared, etc. Then we have Ne as the explosion. I don't see how sitting down and arguing "a, but b.... and then there's c" is specifically Ne, if that's what's being tossed around.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I do that in my literature; the circumstances must always compel the action, in the sense that there is no other, better rationalized way someone could have gotten out of a situation than the choice they made. I try and think universally -- of all the potential ways they could solve the problem, and then choose a specific one that to me seems inherently logical.
> 
> 
> 
> You refuse to believe it now, but last night identified with inferior Ti.
> 
> For the record, I have yet to meet an EXFJ who doesn't use Ti a lot. In fact, a lot of the ESFJs I know are better grounded in reality and have more common sense than the ISFJs. Their higher Ne makes them open to greater debate as well, but it's hard for them to abandon their "for the good of all" mindset while doing it.
> 
> Basically, the biggest difference I see between ESFJs and ISFJs is -- the ESFJs have a much bigger focus. The good of humanity. The good of mankind. The good of the greater collective group. The ISFJs have a much smaller focus. The good of my family, for example. Family, or friends, trump the larger collective. Extroversion vs Introversion. Extrovert - external focus. Introvert - internal focus.


I identify with inferior Ti, and I know that function-wise it _is_ inferior... But I don't think, for example, that I am an inherently illogical person destined to never see reason (as I have seen some subscribe their views of ExFJs). I bury my perception of logic under outward politeness and piles of courtesies, kindness, but you can't see it I am reasonable. (I would say that "perhaps I am not reasonable"... But this is incorrect. People believe me to be unreasonable, but that is because they underestimate me.) (And I do _love_ to be underestimated, defying people's low expectations of me has been a pleasure for me since I was young... but it does become draining after a while when constantly confronted with people who consider me "stupid" and "ignorant".) 

I relate to the "for good of all" mindset, the good of mankind. Talk about my life. (Except I don't experience it as people seem to think Fe always does. I'm not going to reject a person just because they don't fit in, or because they are not useful to the future of humanity. Like, what the heck. Who even does that? Unhealthy, toxic, terribly ignorant people, that's who. It made me not identify at all as Fe for the longest time... I value _everyone_, every single person. Not just the group. Gah. Fe stereotypes.) For me, thinking of the good of humanity is more... big picture, yes. Not thinking about here and now - this person is bringing down the group, must annihilate them (stupid, yes, but that's what I got from too many Fe descriptions) - but rather thinking as a whole, what's best for _all_ of humanity. Yes, the world would function better if society valued productivity (as it does now), but what does that do for the treatment of those who cannot work, who are incapable of being productive? How can we bring our society to value all people as they are, see them as people...? These are my more recent concerns, but of course I've also pondered working conditions, immigration, adaptability to climate change... Broader issues, and my thoughts are more about what will be best for humanity as a whole in the future regarding these issues. Where can we go. 

I don't identify with the ISFJ small focus of "good of my family". I'm definitely more about "good of humanity".


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> The problem I keep running into is that Ni is described as rigid, the one truth, the one path, Ni doesn't like to deviate from its vision, etc. But then Ni is also described as having the ability to deal with paradoxes, to argue both sides, to see all probable outcomes because of the patterns it's stored in its subconscious, to be predictive and prepared, etc. Then we have Ne as the explosion. I don't see how sitting down and arguing "a, but b.... and then there's c" is specifically Ne, if that's what's being tossed around.


Yes, I agree. The division between Ne and Ni is extremely blurry. (I actually identify with precisely what you say about Ni in this post... like, yes, that is exactly what I do... but I as these are conflicting ideas and part of what you've said is probably Ne I wouldn't say I am certainly NJ because of it.)


----------



## 68097

Living dead said:


> I wouldn't agree with that,why would it have anything to do with introversion and extroversion?


It has to do with Fe-dom vs. Fe-aux... in my experience in dealing with people. Doesn't mean introverts don't care about the greater good of humanity or whatever, just that it's not their absolute first reaction in a situation.

(I still laugh when recalling a discussion about "Frozen" with a Fe-dom. She was so delighted that kids with albino-ism have a Disney princess to idolize now. That never even crossed my mind until she brought it up and then I was like "Oh... yeah.... that's sweet...")


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> Basically, the biggest difference I see between ESFJs and ISFJs is -- the ESFJs have a much bigger focus. The good of humanity. The good of mankind. The good of the greater collective group. The ISFJs have a much smaller focus. The good of my family, for example. Family, or friends, trump the larger collective. Extroversion vs Introversion. Extrovert - external focus. Introvert - internal focus.


I haven't met an ESFJ yet who didn't put their family and other "groups" before the good of humanity. Granted, I haven't met the best assortment of ESFJs, but I still don't think that ESFJ necessarily has a larger scope.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I'm a bit confused about what you're saying... What you mentioned about why you would be fearful to have a child is different from my thoughts. I do think any type can be hesitant to be a mother, that any woman can be hesitant to be a mother for her own reasons... Your reason is very different from mine. (At least according to this post? I'm really kind of confused because I don't see how this goes into what I said as a contradiction at all?)


Well, yes, it's different, but the point is you don't want to be a mother that hurts their child without meaning to (preferring one over the other). You said this was extremely Fe, and I don't see how it's specifically Fe at all because I think most women have fears about motherhood and how they will impact their children. Unless your point is that you want to treat everyone with equal value and that's Fe, in which case, I still don't see a need for distinction.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@laurie17 Funny you mention Lord of the Flies! I love the book. It's the most gorgeous and immediate microcosm of humanity that I have found. At the back of my text it says that no one has ever attempted to fully unravel the universal symbolism in it... Even when I was 15, I decided that was something I wanted to do. Unlock the secrets of its pages. I may still turn to that goal, if I stick on my Lit track. 

(It's funny because my writing professor actually expressed to me how disappointed he was when his high school teacher reduced the events of the novel to symbolism. It was such a fun adventure story to him! How could you reduce it! Of course I didn't tell him this, but I was the opposite. The story itself did not appeal to me - I have a distaste for adventure stories generally - but rather the symbolism made me love it. The story is all about humanity. That's why I loved it.) 

I don't have that objective criteria at all.  I would be with your sister, making excuses for the professor. Some things I am very harsh about - one of my friend's professors spent half of his classes watching Breaking Bad, which I found irresponsible and wasteful and brought my friend to get very defensive of her professor - but I am always making excuses for people in that way.


----------



## Darkbloom

shinynotshiny said:


> Well, yes, it's different, but the point is you don't want to be a mother that hurts their child without meaning to (preferring one over the other). You said this was extremely Fe, and I don't see how it's specifically Fe at all because I think most women have fears about motherhood and how they will impact their children. Unless your point is that you want to treat everyone with equal value and that's Fe, in which case, I still don't see a need for distinction.


I agree,my xNFP mother was so scared,she recently told me she had nightmares about something happening to me(because of her making a mistake) when I was a baby
As for treating children equally,I also think it could be both,depending on individual's values.My parents were always clearly biased(to my advantage) but I guess that just comes with having me as a child 
I rarely hear about someone being as concerned as you are with everyone being equal though


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Well, yes, it's different, but the point is you don't want to be a mother that hurts their child without meaning to (preferring one over the other). You said this was extremely Fe, and I don't see how it's specifically Fe at all because I think most women have fears about motherhood and how they will impact their children. Unless your point is that you want to treat everyone with equal value and that's Fe, in which case, I still don't see a need for distinction.


Oh, I think that's where our misunderstanding is. I was not asserting that having fears about motherhood and hurting their future child is specifically Fe - that's quite absurd and stereotypical - but rather that my specific resin behind my hesitation to motherhood was Fe. (Which could be wrong, but I still think it's a bit Fe to not want to be a mother for fear of my own child's value blinding me to the value of other children.)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh, I think that's where our misunderstanding is. I was not asserting that having fears about motherhood and hurting their future child is specifically Fe - that's quite absurd and stereotypical - but rather *that my specific resin behind my hesitation to motherhood was Fe*. (Which could be wrong, but *I still think it's a bit Fe to not want to be a mother for fear of my own child's value blinding me to the value of other children*.)


Can you explain why you think so?


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Well, when you grow up in a family that seems to exist in the memory of its matriarch, where every aunt you have and especially your own mother declares their most firm desire is to be as their mother was... You start to perceive your own no -family-centered dreams and perceptions of the world as selfish and wrong.
> 
> You say that your objective response to me would be that I am ENFJ... would your subjective assessment be different? (Sorry, the wording caught me a bit.)


Yes I can understand how that would be difficult emotionally. I think some Fi-users would struggle with that (at least those prone to feel guilty). It must be even harder for someone with so much Fe.

subjectively? Also ENFJ. My subjective impression has always been ENFJ. I've been trying to take in what you say and evaluate it objectively—and view the types and functions objectively—but I'm not sure one can claim pure objectivity in typing. However I still think you seem to have Ni rather than Ne—just the kind of Ni that seeks and evaluates rather than the stereotypically tunnel-visioned Ni*.

*honestly, I think "Ni-users" who don't consider other perspectives are either unhealthy or not actually Ni-users...at least not if they claim to be Ni-dom. Ni is a perceiving function, after all.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> *honestly, I think "Ni-users" who don't consider other perspectives are either unhealthy or not actually Ni-users...at least not if they claim to be Ni-dom. Ni is a perceiving function, after all.


This is the problem I have with the rigid "one true vision/truth" description of Ni.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Can you explain why you think so?


It goes with Miachel Pierce's explanation of the difference between Fe and Fi, which I know you already disagree with. Fe would want to recognize the objective value - that all children are equal, and all the love she might have for her child would not cancel out the objective value of other children. I think an Fi mother could also feel this way if she valued equality so highly, but I think that this would generally be more of a plagued thought of Fe.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> It goes with Miachel Pierce's explanation of the difference between Fe and Fi, which I know you already disagree with. Fe would want to recognize the objective value - that all children are equal, and all the love she might have for her child would not cancel out the objective value of other children. I think an Fi mother could also feel this way if she valued equality so highly, but I think that this would generally be more of a plagued thought of Fe.


I personally don't understand how having a child will make someone devalue other children. There's a difference between having more affection for a child (which is only natural and to be expected for a mother who has a healthy relationship with their child) and seeing other children as having less value. I see this more as thinking/reasoning. What I'm getting is that you don't want to have any kind of bias whatsoever.


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny Well one thing I've observed is that, while they may _believe_ that all children deserve good schools, parents often wind up making it a priority for _their_ children to have good schools, not realizing that some of their fights against things like redistricting are denying other children access to a better school (not their intent, but a consequence of bias).

Perhaps this is the sort of thing @alittlebear fears?


----------



## 68097

Hair splitting. All of it.

Is @alittlebear more of an Elizabeth Bennett or a Margaret Hale? I've always thought a Lizzie -- an ENFJ.

Ni to an outsider gives the impression of having combed over ideas completely and then reached a conclusion. It does as much processing and taking in of external information as Ne, but the outsider only sees the result -- the opinion, conclusion, purpose, or determination in life. This is why INXJs have a reputation for being single minded or even potentially stubborn in their views -- it's because there's no visible outer exploration of ideas; merely a distancing from them until they are processed, then the sharing of the idea as if it has always been an established fixed point in their mind. 

I don't get the impression that you're bantering with ideas as you receive them, which is more in the realm of Ne, but ... I could be wrong. Whenever you answer anything, your opinion on the essentials of what matters seems forethought out. 

But that's just my two cents. Generally, I blunder into things and this happens:










(You really do need to watch The Mummy. Heh.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I personally don't understand how having a child will make someone devalue other children. There's a difference between having more affection for a child (which is only natural and to be expected for a mother who has a healthy relationship with their child) and seeing other children as having less value. I see this more as thinking/reasoning. What I'm getting is that you don't want to have any kind of bias whatsoever.


Hmm...

It is true, in general terms, that I seek to not have a bias. My senior year of high school I approached my INTP/ISFJ teacher and asked him how I could eliminate my bias. He basically told me that I could not rid of my bias, that the best thing I could do would be to accept it. But I can't do that. I can, and I'm only deluding myself by thinking I can ever escape my bias, but it is something I am constantly seeking to do nonetheless. 

Perhaps my expression of someone undervaluing other children is a bit extreme... It matches what I mean, but... It's difficult to explain. 

I think of the burning building example. A school is burning down. A mother runs inside. Who is she going to grab. _Her_ child, of course. 

I think of mothers who will defend their children to the death, even if their child is blatantly wrong. Even if their child is bullying another child, and their child is seven and all they have to do is explain to their child how this is wrong. I think of my own mother, how she was speaking scornfully about one of her students and added, "Of course if I was her mother I would love her and deal with her, but I'm not her mother so I am annoyed by her." I _never_ want to be like that, especially the last example. Every. Single. Child. Is. Gorgeous. Gorgeous and important and beautiful and worth all the attentions the world could provide. I never want to dismiss a child because they are too much work for me, that's their mother's job. They are a person, and they need to be valued just as much as any other child. 

It's certainly not dehumanization, but it is a disregard for other human beings that I have always despised. I fear that being a mother would make me more prone to it - even slightly - and I shiver at the thought.


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ Funny you mention Lord of the Flies! I love the book. It's the most gorgeous and immediate microcosm of humanity that I have found. At the back of my text it says that no one has ever attempted to fully unravel the universal symbolism in it... Even when I was 15, I decided that was something I wanted to do. Unlock the secrets of its pages. I may still turn to that goal, if I stick on my Lit track.
> 
> (It's funny because my writing professor actually expressed to me how disappointed he was when his high school teacher reduced the events of the novel to symbolism. It was such a fun adventure story to him! How could you reduce it! Of course I didn't tell him this, but I was the opposite. The story itself did not appeal to me - I have a distaste for adventure stories generally - but rather the symbolism made me love it. The story is all about humanity. That's why I loved it.)
> 
> I don't have that objective criteria at all.  I would be with your sister, making excuses for the professor. Some things I am very harsh about - one of my friend's professors spent half of his classes watching Breaking Bad, which I found irresponsible and wasteful and brought my friend to get very defensive of her professor - but I am always making excuses for people in that way.


I analysed Lord of the Flies as well and didn't like the characters, but liked the underlying story. It was pretty interesting and did what it was supposed to do I think (lots of religious references and stuff apparently).
I agree with you about analysing it. The book was pretty much written on symbolism I think.
I tend to defend people a lot for their failings if I like them, but if I dont I tend to be very critical (maybe immature Fe?) I do also find I criticised things which seem pointless or make no sense in the context i.e. I got annoyed by, on a film exam, being asked about the book of the film instead of the film itself.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ Funny you mention Lord of the Flies! I love the book. It's the most gorgeous and immediate microcosm of humanity that I have found. At the back of my text it says that no one has ever attempted to fully unravel the universal symbolism in it... Even when I was 15, I decided that was something I wanted to do. Unlock the secrets of its pages. I may still turn to that goal, if I stick on my Lit track.
> 
> (It's funny because my writing professor actually expressed to me how disappointed he was when his high school teacher reduced the events of the novel to symbolism. It was such a fun adventure story to him! How could you reduce it! Of course I didn't tell him this, but I was the opposite. The story itself did not appeal to me - I have a distaste for adventure stories generally - but rather the symbolism made me love it. The story is all about humanity. That's why I loved it.)
> 
> I don't have that objective criteria at all.  I would be with your sister, making excuses for the professor. Some things I am very harsh about - one of my friend's professors spent half of his classes watching Breaking Bad, which I found irresponsible and wasteful and brought my friend to get very defensive of her professor - but I am always making excuses for people in that way.


Ahh, I enjoyed the symbolism to an extent (it seemed kind of overtly metaphorical, though. I kind of prefer it when there seems to be nothing metaphorical about it, but you can read into it - it's more of a... challenge, maybe?), but I really didn't like the characters (I think Simon and the talking boar head were about the best) so it was very difficult for me to get into. The adventure story side of it was okay, but not as good as others (Treasure Island is probably the best classical adventure story I've read). Sorry, I went into a mini review of it then...

Ah, yeah, I do think it's something to do with low order Te, which can come across as overly critical (at least vocally?). Anyone can develop any function at any time in their lives - and the functions can show both good and bad sides whether they're developed or not i.e. inferior Fe for IxTPs is described as a sort of naivety about external standards such as 'rules' for socialisation, which can be interpreted as either endearing or negative depending on who is doing the interpretation and if the user is executing the inferior Fe in an aggressive sort of way or not, like reacting strongly to criticisms over social competence or something).


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ Well one thing I've observed is that, while they may _believe_ that all children deserve good schools, parents often wind up making it a priority for _their_ children to have good schools, not realizing that some of their fights against things like redistricting are denying other children access to a better school (not their intent, but a consequence of bias).
> 
> Perhaps this is the sort of thing @_alittlebear_ fears?


Of course, that's human nature, but when Bear says it makes someone devalue other children (as in, devalue their worth as a child, as a person, and so on) I don't entirely agree. You can understand everyone is of equal value and you can also understand you're biased because of your subjective experiences. I suppose the difference here is the thought and the behavior.


----------



## fair phantom

*bites tongue to keep self from launching into a discourse about the dark side of the adventure genre—at least in its early days*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> @shinynotshiny Well one thing I've observed is that, while they may _believe_ that all children deserve good schools, parents often wind up making it a priority for _their_ children to have good schools, not realizing that some of their fights against things like redistricting are denying other children access to a better school (not their intent, but a consequence of bias).
> 
> Perhaps this is the sort of thing @alittlebear fears?


Oh gosh, certainly yes. That's one of the things I despise. (I understand it, of course, and it's human nature to want the best for your child... but I think it is harmful nonetheless.) 

The county next to mine has some notoriously bad schools. My parents actually relocated to our current county to save me from their education system. Some of the schools are just... I don't even know. Non effective. Clearly not working. Contrary to popular belief, the students are not bad, the parents are not bad... but the resources given to the schools and the attention most teachers there provide is not adequate, especially given the special circumstances the environments may require.

A few years ago I went to a competition in this county... and I was blown away by the school it was held at. Gorgeous. Beautiful school. Full of resources. Better even than _my_ school, which happened to be the most state-of-the-art school in our already acclaimed county. 

And I went to my dad and I asked him. How is this? How is this school so nice while so many other schools in that county are struggling with the most basic things?

He explained to me that the school exists in a wealthy part of the county, and the tax dollars and parent donations help the school be as it is. 

That was just... so upsetting to me. We go to public schools. If you donate to the public school district, it should be spread out evenly. Obviously that school has more than enough resources. Give them some of the money, but spread it around at least a _little_ bit to the schools that have absolutely nothing. My dad explained that parents don't care about that, they want _their_ child to have the best education... And I can respect that, my parents are the same way, and I think a lot of parents are the same way... but it's so sad to me. Again, I don't want to fall into such strong affiliations that I would want to make my child's already perfect school more grandiose than it already is rather than giving my money to a school where it could truly make a difference. That's sort of what I mean.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Of course, that's human nature, but when Bear says it makes someone devalue other children (as in, devalue their worth as a child, as a person, and so on) I don't entirely agree. You can understand everyone is of equal value and you can also understand you're biased because of your subjective experiences. I suppose the difference here is the thought and the behavior.


True, but I think the world can benefit people who aren't parents, who don't have that bias, to look after the interests of children in general.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> *bites tongue to keep self from launching into a discourse about the dark side of the adventure genre—at least in its early days*


Speak. I need to develop more appreciation for the adventure genre, and maybe you could help open my eyes. (If you wouldn't mind elaborating.)


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> (You really do need to watch The Mummy. Heh.)


The Mummy is a great film :happy: 




fair phantom said:


> *bites tongue to keep self from launching into a discourse about the dark side of the adventure genre—at least in its early days*


It would be interesting if you did... I enjoy quite a few adventure stories and always love learning about the history of genre/texts.


----------



## Max

I think I might actually be an ESTP developing Fe, for all I know. Yesterday, my mind clicked with this idea. It went "Ah ha! This is why you seem like an ESFJ. Fe and Se can come across as being ESFJ-like."

I haven't argued against my thoughts yet. I think I just have a terrible understanding of functional comobinations. 

I definitely have narrowed it down to EFJ and ETP regardless.


----------



## AdInfinitum

angelcat said:


> Si is less sure of its conclusions about other people, thanks to Ne. This is PROBABLY what is going on, but ... maybe not.
> 
> Here's what an ENFJ friend said about the difference between her and her ESFJ mother:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I mean by absolutism.
> 
> My INTJ friend is forever asserting that he knows EXACTLY what people's motives are._ Dan isn't speaking to me; he's jealous of my relationship with his wife.... Steven is having a problem with so-and-so, but the real issue is ... _
> 
> Yet, I know he hasn't asked them what the problem is. He has no outside information. My Si takes that in and my Ne scoffs, "Yeah, like you can know EXACTLY what's going on." But he does. Or at least, he THINKS he does.


I enjoy reading this way too much for my own health.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Si is less sure of its conclusions about other people, thanks to Ne. This is PROBABLY what is going on, but ... maybe not.


So, an Si-dom would be even less sure of their conclusion than the ESFJ in your example?

You see, this is all confusing because I don't relate to this at all and I don't know if it's because there is a significant difference between Si/Fe and Si/Te and how they relate to their inferior Ne. I would think an ISTJ would be sure of their conclusion because they've painstakingly looked into the facts as well as their store of past experiences. I also associate inferior Ne with less openness to new ideas because Si has already settled on a system or method or point of view. That's especially the overall impression I get from the ISTJ forums.

Also, I'm having a hard time imagining your Ne as inferior.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat I think I feel as if I can sense the motivations of others? 

After my cousin's baby shower a couple months ago, I made the comment that "[insert a cousin's name here] can be a bit judgmental sometimes. Not that it's bad, but she has a lot of thoughts about us, about different people. Doesn't she?" My parents mentioned they had never noticed that, and I added, "You didn't see the way she was looking at [the name of an almost-aunt]? She thought she was showing off her money too much, that she was too proud. None of them like [almosy aunt's name]. They think she's too proud, too pompous..." And of course after that I had to add, when they piped up that they like our almost-aunt, "of course I love her too. She acts like this, but really she's this. She's a good person, just a little ____. Unfortunately I don't think most the others in our family see her that way." 

I use that example because it was one of the first times I realized I might be a little bit of a false know-it-all about other people's heads. 

But I've done it forever. My teacher doesn't like me because they think this about me. My teacher talks about this because this happened to them, because they are attached to this subject. This student likes this student, but only a little bit, and there's a rift probably because of this. He proposed in this way because of this thing, definitely. I make these assumptions because they seem true to me, even if I only have a sliver of evidence. (I don't feel like it's the Ne thing I've seen some people speak of, where it's playfully assigning fun motivations and stories to people... That thought makes me claustrophobic. I like to think of things I think are true about people, even if they aren't, because... Well, that's what I like to occupy my time with. What is there, what will make me more perceptive of and knowledgable about the world by pondering it. Not... fluff, cloud, light smoke, as I would describe more fantastical musings.) (Not that they are bad, at all, I love how people enjoy them, but for my personal mind use they make me feel unproductive.)


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Hmm...
> 
> It is true, in general terms, that I seek to not have a bias. My senior year of high school I approached my INTP/ISFJ teacher and asked him how I could eliminate my bias. He basically told me that I could not rid of my bias, that the best thing I could do would be to accept it. But I can't do that. I can, and I'm only deluding myself by thinking I can ever escape my bias, but it is something I am constantly seeking to do nonetheless.
> 
> Perhaps my expression of someone undervaluing other children is a bit extreme... It matches what I mean, but... It's difficult to explain.
> 
> I think of the burning building example. A school is burning down. A mother runs inside. Who is she going to grab. _Her_ child, of course.
> 
> I think of mothers who will defend their children to the death, even if their child is blatantly wrong. Even if their child is bullying another child, and their child is seven and all they have to do is explain to their child how this is wrong. I think of my own mother, how she was speaking scornfully about one of her students and added, "Of course if I was her mother I would love her and deal with her, but I'm not her mother so I am annoyed by her." I _never_ want to be like that, especially the last example. Every. Single. Child. Is. Gorgeous. Gorgeous and important and beautiful and worth all the attentions the world could provide. I never want to dismiss a child because they are too much work for me, that's their mother's job. They are a person, and they need to be valued just as much as any other child.
> 
> It's certainly not dehumanization, but it is a disregard for other human beings that I have always despised. I fear that being a mother would make me more prone to it - even slightly - and I shiver at the thought.


I'm just curious, _why_ do you fear becoming like this? I mean, do you see in yourself the tendencies to be this way? Or do you just dislike seeing it in others?


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Si is less sure of its conclusions about other people, thanks to Ne. This is PROBABLY what is going on, but ... maybe not.
> 
> Here's what an ENFJ friend said about the difference between her and her ESFJ mother:
> 
> This is what I mean by absolutism.
> 
> My INTJ friend is forever asserting that he knows EXACTLY what people's motives are._ Dan isn't speaking to me; he's jealous of my relationship with his wife.... Steven is having a problem with so-and-so, but the real issue is ... _
> 
> Yet, I know he hasn't asked them what the problem is. He has no outside information. My Si takes that in and my Ne scoffs, "Yeah, like you can know EXACTLY what's going on." But he does. Or at least, he THINKS he does.


I didn't read this til after I wrote the last comment. Anyway, okay so what about someone you asserts they know what is goin on as absolute (because that is what they truly feel in their gut), but when they hear others do the same thing they do (as in thinking they know what's going on), they will say "you don't know them" and "stop judging them. You don't know their story"...? LOL basically a hypocrite really?

Let me explain this better lol. Okay, so for instance, I have a friend who was married with 2 kids. She decided they were all gonna move out to Missouri where her family is. He doesn't know anyone there. Right away, I knew things would be rough. She would feel "at home" and he would feel "alone". He would begin to drink away his sorrows while she went and partied. They would begin to drift til finally... divorce city. Well, this all went on in my head, and I did say it to my husband. He said "stop thinking you know people" (I do this all the time! So does my dad). Thing is, I am almost ALWAYS right. So months go by, nothing rose a red flag to anyone from their FB pages and posts. But it confirmed to ME that I was right in my assertion. I knew all along that they were probably not even "together" anymore. They never said it, but they didn't have to. Just by her posts. Less and less pictures with him. Less talking about him. More partying posts etc etc etc. 'Til one day...BAM, a new profile pic of her and HER NEW MAN! Facebook peeps (including her BEST FRIENDS) were in SHOCK to say the least. She became the new Kim Kardashian. Her personal life now up for public scrutiny. Everyone thinking they have a right to have an opinion on the matter. I sat back and said "BOOM" to my husband LOL. After the uproar on her picture and wall came rushing in (her being called a whore, and everyone burning her at the stake for not telling them etc), I finally had to say something (even though I disagreed, and saw it coming before they even moved there), here is what I said;

"I am HELLA confused... it's like Marie turned into Kim Kardashian. Why is her household business now at the hands of public scrutiny? It's just weird to me.

I come from a dysfunctional, broken home. And chances are, more than half of y'all do too. It's life. I may not agree with divorce, period. .. but I don't think Marie asked my opinion on the natter. Because last time I checked, I am not the one married to her, nor am I God.. so my opinion has no relevance here.

So, I would like to ask the "press";
1) Are you married to her?
2) Are you God?
3) Are the girls in any danger?

No, no, and no?

GREAT! THEN, BUHBYE!  "

Anyway, point being... I do this all the time. I state things as matter of fact when I just "know". BUT if someone else were to tell me that this was gonna happen. I would play devil's advocate and tell them that they dont know that for sure. Does this mean anything as type related? Or am I just a hypocritical mess? LOL


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> I'm just curious, _why_ do you fear becoming like this? I mean, do you see in yourself the tendencies to be this way? Or do you just dislike seeing it in others?


That's an interesting question. I'm not really sure. I honestly can't foresee myself ever being the sort of person to be like this...

But in terms of having a child, it feels different. I can very much see my love being channeled into one thing, one little being. I'm sure I would love other children, of course, but my love would be faded compared to the love I had for my child. And... I don't know. It's sort of beautiful, but I would not want my love for other children to be dampened by my affection for my little one (and I think that as a mother this would inevitably be what would happen). Not to the extent where I would ridicule other children and consider them a waste of my time, that I would mistreat a child, but... I just hate to think my heart could go so singular, that it could focus so much on a single child rather than sending gulfs of love to anyone out there. 

Does that make sense?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

(And I mean it's weird because at the same time... I've always yearned to be a mother. To have someone to take care of. I know it's silly and please understand I have absolutely no intention of getting a child by any means, this is just a daydream, and a foolish one, but... My heart thinks it would be easier, if I had a life to guide, a life to live for, rather than just living for myself. This is part of why I want to teach... My life would be directly feeding into others, giving me purpose, allowing me to be a stand propping up the joy of others... I was like this when I was little, too. I needed someone to care for, whether it was a pet or a tree or a cousin. It greatly injured me when my mother took my maternal instincts I had over my sister as inappropriate and taught me [perhaps without realizing it] that I was an inadequate caretaker who could not be trusted to care for anyone - or even, like, to babysit when I was _16 years old_ - because for whatever reason she sees me as immature and incompetent... I mean, she didn't mean to injure me like this, but with her insisting I could not be trusted to care for a child, that I was wrong to be maternal to my sister and take care of her because that was asserting authority over her, that I could _never_ babysit because I just didn't have what it took... I took all that in, and it brought me to see that I was an inadequate caretaker. Which hurt, because like... Obviously I seek to care for others.) 

(Sorry that's personal.) 

(I'm starting to see it's not this way. One of my friends is a nanny, and even having not seen me around children ever at all she recommended me to one of her mothers because she told me I was the only friend she had who she thought could do it. And my room mate said that I was the most natural teacher when we had to do our community service event with children, that it was incredible how well I flowed, and others say I am a natural at teaching and with children... But I don't know. I'm Fe and people's opinions about me define me, and I'm still not sure whose opinions about my care taking abilities are more accurate. I don't know.)

(But... Like yeah I have some conflicting ideas about motherhood and while I've sort of been taught I would suck as a mother or even a babysitter I actually love kids and love nurturing them.)


----------



## To_august

ElliCat said:


> Oh I'm glad it's not just me!
> 
> Sp was the clearest for me because 1. I'm sensitive to my own comfort in the environment and 2. I need to feel like I have enough resources before I reach out to others. "Resources", not only food and shelter and money but also just energy in general. I feel like I need to look after myself if I'm to be of any use to anyone else. And I feel much more comfortable relying on myself than on someone else - I could never be a housewife for that reason, being financially dependant on my partner just messes with my head and my self-worth.
> 
> After that I'm very much about looking after my intimates and seeking connections with people that I feel a "spark" with. I would never deny that society is necessary, but it's just not a huge focus of mine. I'm trying to pay more attention to it but in the past it has very much been a blindspot for me. I'm still really awful in larger groups. Don't know how to divide my attention. I tend to lock in on one or two person when discussing a subject and don't realise I'm leaving other people out of it until it's too late.


This is interesting. I related to sp because it seemed so basic in terms of individual survival. 
I'm not too sensitive to personal comfort and tend to disregard it in favour of being productive, doing stuff, achieving some results and basically all the other boring Te stuff  
Also I don't feel being consciously focused on "resources". Independence is important to me, but it's like... a natural state to be in, perhaps. I've never been focused much on money or material possessions and I treat financial independence as a natural concern, but not as a goal or as something that I strive to achieve.

On the other hand I don't feel inclination to establish bounds with individuals neither with groups, so I dunno what to make out of it.

Someone mentioned that a good way to find one's instinctual variant is to see how their passion manifests in daily life, because instinct is closely connected with one's passion/vice. For example 1's passion is anger, so basically one has to concentrate on what makes them angry the most - lack of comfort and insufficiency in other material things, other people or their individual relationships with someone. But in order to do so, one has to be sure of their Ennea type for starters, which I am not.:kitteh:


----------



## Max

I have a good question:

Am I actually a true Si-Dom/Aux, or just an Se user with an amazing photographic memory who can easily compare people/experiences?


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> So, an Si-dom would be even less sure of their conclusion than the ESFJ in your example?
> 
> You see, this is all confusing because I don't relate to this at all and I don't know if it's because there is a significant difference between Si/Fe and Si/Te and how they relate to their inferior Ne. I would think an ISTJ would be sure of their conclusion because they've painstakingly looked into the facts as well as their store of past experiences.


Si gathers information over a long period of time, so when they assert an assessment of someone as a fact, and you press them on it, they have "proof" to back it up. Like ... I have observed them doing this, and this.

If I press my Ni friends for proof, they have none. Not really. It's all vibes and impressions, and these can form quite easily without much prior knowledge of the person involved.

SiTe? King of hard evidence. My assessment of you is THIS, and these are the reasons why (lists off six interactions you've had over a period of five years).



> I also associate inferior Ne with less openness to new ideas because Si has already settled on a system or method or point of view. That's especially the overall impression I get from the ISTJ forums.


Mostly, yes. Although Ni-doms also settle on a system or a method or a point of view. (Yes, it's confusing. It's similar. It's really just a matter of ... how the two perceive reality.) How can you tell them apart at a glance? I usually look for long-term thinking / intuitive assessments of people in Ni, and rigidity / traditionalism in Si.



> Also, I'm having a hard time imagining your Ne as inferior.


Why?



alittlebear said:


> @angelcat I think I feel as if I can sense the motivations of others? ... I use that example because it was one of the first times I realized I might be a little bit of a false know-it-all about other people's heads. But I've done it forever. My teacher doesn't like me because they think this about me. My teacher talks about this because this happened to them, because they are attached to this subject.


Lizzie Bennett. Just saying. ENFJ.
@LuchoIsLurking: I'm not intentionally ignoring you, I just... don't have a solid assessment of you and want to finish with @alittlebear before turning my analyzing skills on you. I'm not SURE you're Si/Ne, so ESTP is certainly on the table. (Um, did you fill out a questionnaire? If so, I'll have a read of it later this weekend.)


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> That's an interesting question. I'm not really sure. I honestly can't foresee myself ever being the sort of person to be like this...
> 
> But in terms of having a child, it feels different. I can very much see my love being channeled into one thing, one little being. I'm sure I would love other children, of course, but my love would be faded compared to the love I had for my child. And... I don't know. It's sort of beautiful, but I would not want my love for other children to be dampened by my affection for my little one (and I think that as a mother this would inevitably be what would happen). Not to the extent where I would ridicule other children and consider them a waste of my time, that I would mistreat a child, but... I just hate to think my heart could go so singular, that it could focus so much on a single child rather than sending gulfs of love to anyone out there.
> 
> Does that make sense?


(It does make sense and I think it's amazing that you feel so purely but I do not relate at all
Also I think @SugarPlum is right that your avatar looks like me in some way; I've gotten confused like 5 times because I thought your comments were mine. Not sure what it is but there's some weird resemblance)

Anyways, you remind me immensely of my ENTJ friend (I am absolutely convinced she's on the Ni-Se axis). Not the Fe stuff, of course, but the way you phrase yourself and such, it's uncanny.
She's kind-of a funny person because she's very...she can have very odd ideas about how the world works and her idea of how things go...I don't know where it comes from, but like...
Bearing in mind that in our friend group none of us believe in sex before marriage, she once started talking about her plan: before she decided if she would marry someone, she would live with them for a year. We told that 'living with someone' usually implied having sex, and that if she proposed this plan to a guy, he would definitely think they were going to be having sex...and her response was just like, "Well, if he started trying to have sex with me, wouldn't that be a sign that I shouldn't marry him?"

She later changed her mind on that, don't know when, but it was the strangest thing: basically she had the plan, an odd plan based on a bizarre view of reality, and, I don't know, to me it felt very representative of her thought processes)

I guess this is a bad example, since you wouldn't relate to this mindset if it's obviously wrong, but this is how I view Ni, it often comes across as very insular and just...completely out of the blue.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Oswin,I can't see anything remotely weird about that:laughing:
Not saying I'd do that exact thing,but I can imagine at least advising it to someone.Makes sense to me
I guess that(could) confirm my Ni?


----------



## Dangerose

(Just a note/question? on the instinctual variants: I can't tell if I have sp and am denying it/not understanding it or if I just don't value or like (or have) sp.
I just...it seems like the worst instinct to me, sx and soc both have their good and bad points I guess but they seem totally all-right and such but sp...self-preservation...'ah, you want to preserve yourself. how touching.' I don't know...how do you tell if you have the instinct (I mean, most people want to stay alive and be comfortable) or not have the instinct?


----------



## Max

@angelcat - I know. I did fill out a questionnaire, and the last conclusion we all came to was ISFJ. But I know that doesn't fit for some reason.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Si gathers information over a long period of time, so when they assert an assessment of someone as a fact, and you press them on it, they have "proof" to back it up. Like ... I have observed them doing this, and this.
> 
> If I press my Ni friends for proof, they have none. Not really. It's all vibes and impressions, and these can form quite easily without much prior knowledge of the person involved.
> 
> SiTe? King of hard evidence. My assessment of you is THIS, and these are the reasons why (lists off six interactions you've had over a period of five years).
> 
> Mostly, yes. Although Ni-doms also settle on a system or a method or a point of view. (Yes, it's confusing. It's similar. It's really just a matter of ... how the two perceive reality.) How can you tell them apart at a glance? I usually look for long-term thinking / intuitive assessments of people in Ni, and rigidity / traditionalism in Si.


Yes, which is why I don't see how Si-dom and Ne-inferior is insecure about its conclusions.



angelcat said:


> Why?


The way you experience Ne doesn't strike me as the inferior Ne I associate with Si-doms.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Not sure if I should confess at this time that I haven't finished _Pride and Prejudice_ either or if I should carry on pretending I do...

I haven't read it in its entirety but I know it. So _basically_ I've read it. I have the pretty Barnes and Noble Jane Austen collection but unfortunately I find it difficult to read single texts with that copy. :/ 

I'll have to read it soon. After I finish _The Secret History_. (Which is enchanting me and has been way too distracting these past two days. I can't get it out of my head.) 
@Oswin I thought of you when I got this avatar! Maybe because it does look a little like you, but it also seems like your style avatar. (It's actually funny because my icon on my new Tumblr is like yours too, your old one, the painting. Sort of like @ElliCat now. I feel a little like I'm stealing, but... It is different, you know? And in another area of the Internet entirely.) 

Hmm... I'm trying to think. That at first reminds me more of something my ISFJ friend has told me, that she thinks she needs to go on a road trip with whatever boyfriend she may end up with because she wants to see if they could get along for so long, and being stuck in a car for such a time would show her that. 

I'm interested in how you think we word things similarly. It kind of makes me feel like a person or something? People noticing stuff about how I word things. Thank you for your comment, and I will think on it. 

Also @fair phantom you made a comment on my type as well but I don't think I acknowledged it; thank you, I appreciated what you said as well. (And also, not kidding, I love your new avatar! It's wonderful.)


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> (Just a note/question? on the instinctual variants: I can't tell if I have sp and am denying it/not understanding it or if I just don't value or like (or have) sp.
> I just...it seems like the worst instinct to me, sx and soc both have their good and bad points I guess but they seem totally all-right and such but sp...self-preservation...'ah, you want to preserve yourself. how touching.' I don't know...how do you tell if you have the instinct (I mean, most people want to stay alive and be comfortable) or not have the instinct?


the way that makes sense to me is that your dominant instinct is the one you are neurotic about, the one you worry over, the one you are preoccupied with. your engagement/disengagement with it can vary widely. the middle instinct is steady, comfortable, generally healthy. the last instinct is what you neglect.

I'd also suggest looking at how an instinct & instinct stacking works with your particular core enneatype. 

These two threads might be helpful:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/149408-instinctual-variant-test-final-version.html
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/118168-resource-thread-instinctual-variants-stackings.html


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> @Oswin,I can't see anything remotely weird about that:laughing:
> Not saying I'd do that exact thing,but I can imagine at least advising it to someone.Makes sense to me
> I guess that(could) confirm my Ni?


I don't think the particular plan in itself is indicative of Ni/not Ni but who knows))
Ok, if you're sleeping together maybe living with a guy for a year before you marry is a good idea to figure out if you want the commitment...still seems like an oddly specific and Ni-indicative plan actually when I think about it, but...if you're _not_ planning on sleeping together until marriage, living together seems very odd? Is it just me? I mean, the assumption is that two opposite-gendered people who are living together are sleeping together...so first of all, everyone will think you are, secondly, the guy will probably think you are going to, thirdly, you will probably end up sleeping together, fourthly, 'if he tries to sleep with me that's probably a sign I shouldn't marry him' is...an odd outlook as we were pointing out that he would probably think the plan was to sleep together and secondly, married people do sleep together so...

I don't know, maybe it only makes sense as an example in-context, it just struck me as a very...separated-from-reality plan she had, and...everything about that conversation just screamed Ni to me (well, I didn't know about Ni when I had it, so it just screamed out 'this girl's mind works in a very different way')

Just, her Ni is often much more on-track, that's just how it hits me sometimes, like a train out of literally nowhere)


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> I don't think the particular plan in itself is indicative of Ni/not Ni but who knows))
> Ok, if you're sleeping together maybe living with a guy for a year before you marry is a good idea to figure out if you want the commitment...still seems like an oddly specific and Ni-indicative plan actually when I think about it, but...if you're _not_ planning on sleeping together until marriage, living together seems very odd? Is it just me? I mean, the assumption is that two opposite-gendered people who are living together are sleeping together...so first of all, everyone will think you are, secondly, the guy will probably think you are going to, thirdly, you will probably end up sleeping together, fourthly, 'if he tries to sleep with me that's probably a sign I shouldn't marry him' is...an odd outlook as we were pointing out that he would probably think the plan was to sleep together and secondly, married people do sleep together so...
> 
> I don't know, maybe it only makes sense as an example in-context, it just struck me as a very...separated-from-reality plan she had, and...everything about that conversation just screamed Ni to me (well, I didn't know about Ni when I had it, so it just screamed out 'this girl's mind works in a very different way')
> 
> Just, her Ni is often much more on-track, that's just how it hits me sometimes, like a train out of literally nowhere)


that plan doesn't seem specifically Ni. I wanted to live together before marriage to make sure that the little annoyances that wear away at relationships wouldn't have that affect on us. What I find weird is the lack of communication involved in the plan. Yes, the assumption is that people living together will be sleeping together, but I don't think that _needs_ to be the case. However, if you _don't have that discussion _with your SO, and he tries, so you decide it isn't right...that strikes me as unfair. It is expecting your partner to be psychic and I don't think that sort of behavior belongs in a healthy relationship.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> More so your thoughts and ideas.


 @arkigos once half-jokingly called Ne "promiscuous" where ideas are concerned.

But then, how much of my Ne is instinctive and how much of it is environment, with my Ne-heavy dad? Did it develop heavily because it's my tert, or because despite it being my inferior, living in an ever-changing environment where ideas are concerned due to my dad switching up things so often is normal for me?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Do you really go for hardcore
> 
> If you do you might want to get rid of the hot air balloon avatar


Did so ^^


------
Hey do Fe users freak out during a crisis? Or I mean are they more liable than other people


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> @_arkigos_ once half-jokingly called Ne "promiscuous" where ideas are concerned.
> 
> But then, how much of my Ne is instinctive and how much of it is environment, with my Ne-heavy dad? Did it develop heavily because it's my tert, or because despite it being my inferior, living in an ever-changing environment where ideas are concerned due to my dad switching up things so often is normal for me?


Hmm, but would inferior Ne have been that receptive?


----------



## Ninjaws

This might be the most active thread in the entire forum. oO


----------



## Immolate

Ninjaws said:


> This might be the most active thread in the entire forum. oO


Didn't you decide on ISTJ???


----------



## orbit

Ninjaws said:


> This might be the most active thread in the entire forum. oO


It also happens to be the thread where people have sudden revelations that they are not the people they thought they were


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> Or maybe this
> I don't know
> So seems...like something I should be good at but I'm not?
> Which is why I was thinking last
> Like
> I don't know though
> Hm
> 
> edit: maybe you're right but @alittlebear has a point to. I struggle to care about big societal issues, wars or revolutions, that sort of thing...idk) not that important)


Hmm,like you don't care about So things but you feel you should/people think you should?

What always striked me So-ish was your shyness and like,awareness of what's expected and thinking you don't have it,but tbh I had a similar thing for a long time but I'm 99% sure of being So last,it's just that I felt a bit pushed into social situations and identifying with a group but I had a SX take on it I think?


----------



## Ninjaws

shinynotshiny said:


> Didn't you decide on ISTJ???


Doubt struck me again since I am able to relate to all functions, but this is the last time I'm doing this:
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/568553-very-last-one-i-promise.html

It's starting to waste far too much of my time, so the result of that thread is final. No more changes afterwards.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Did so ^^
> 
> 
> ------
> Hey do Fe users freak out during a crisis? Or I mean are they more liable than other people


I've told you this twice already but your avatar choice is like literally killing me


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Curiphant on freaking out during a crisis 

I am actually helped by a group environment when there's a crisis. Stay strong for them. Feel what they need. Be what they mean. Don't stress, just make jokes to calm the others. Be the peaceful one. Be the hope that "everything will be okay, I promise. It'll be okay. Okay?" When I have other people "depending" on me, I can be a very good-in-crisis-situation person.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I've told you this twice already but your avatar choice is like literally killing me


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I've told you this twice already but your avatar choice is like literally killing me


The picture of Fe and Si. Might as well call it the epitome of ISFJ.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> @Curiphant on freaking out during a crisis
> 
> I am actually helped by a group environment when there's a crisis. Stay strong for them. Feel what they need. Be what they mean. Don't stress, just make jokes to calm the others. Be the peaceful one. Be the hope that "everything will be okay, I promise. It'll be okay. Okay?" When I have other people "depending" on me, I can be a very good-in-crisis-situation person.


Hmm. Thanks. I just know my mom is an Fe user and she kind of just implodes on herself when things go wrong. And then another friend kind of bangs her head around and stuff.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


>


Reminds me. Someone who submitted to FMF today said that "not all ENFJs are Chris Traegers" 

And I internally went "oh my gosh no" 

I cannot stand that man. Cannot. Stand. Him.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Hmm. Thanks. I just know my mom is an Fe user and she kind of just implodes on herself when things go wrong. And then another friend kind of bangs her head around and stuff.


Could be inferior Ti? We can problem solve, but under stress I think we can turn our problem solving skills off and sort of unfortunately shut down. It happened to me on a small level the other night.








maybe?








please??


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Reminds me. Someone who submitted to FMF today said that "not all ENFJs are Chris Traegers"
> 
> And I internally went "oh my gosh no"
> 
> I cannot stand that man. Cannot. Stand. Him.


He is kind of adorable? And uses "literally" the way you just did


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> The picture of Fe and Si. Might as well call it the epitome of ISFJ.












Edit: oh dear. My gif method has left. Oh dear.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Could be inferior Ti? We can problem solve, but under stress I think we can turn our problem solving skills off and sort of unfortunately shut down. It happened to me on a small level the other night.


Definitely no Ti. She has no self analysis and she doesn't even listen to what you're saying, she just assumes you are agreeing with her (part of this is that she isn't a native speaker) and she's genuinely shocked when you say you disagree with her. Well at least in our family.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> He is kind of adorable? And uses "literally" the way you just did












I never noticed before.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Hmm. Thanks. I just know my mom is an Fe user and she kind of just implodes on herself when things go wrong. And then another friend kind of bangs her head around and stuff.


My mom is an ESFJ and she implodes too. But my dad is tert fe and he never loses his cool ever. my infj is also calm in a crisis, at least on the surface.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Well I think ISFJ.


Nooooooooo.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> If I'm around someone who isn't handling the situation well, my emotions basically go on shut-down and I act calmly but forcefully. If there's someone handling the situation, I allow myself to feel a bit more. Is this similar to how you react??


Hmm... I'm not sure. This is different from what I'm saying, I think. If someone is vulnerable and it's appropriate for me to care for them (I would be more light-toned, obedient, and helpful, for instance, if I was in a crisis situation and my mom's boss was distressed), my tone is warm, encouraging, peaceful, soothing... But with what you're describing... Mm. Maybe a little, but I don't think as strongly as you seem to experience that behavior. It's more, if someone is depending on me for emotional strength I am there and calm and collected, but if it's just me depending on me I can freak out a little more.


----------



## orbit

I consider myself a fool and I try things for no reason. I signed up for genetics randomly today even though I can't take AP Bio with just one class and I don't have any particular interest in it. 

... Or maybe I do. I don't know. I always raise my hand and participate in class and debates even though I'm pretty ignorant in general as a teenager and I don't care if I get stuff wrong.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> weird fact: I lost like 20 pounds because of him (ehh, not permanently, but it happened)
> No, I mean, I love him)) so much))) he makes my heart sing)) He's my little fitness buddy and I understand his love for the word literally)) He's like my 3rd favorite TV character of all time)
> 
> my favorite scene was when he was freaking out or something at a party and I think Ann brings him some shrimps. He brightens up: "This is _literally_ the best thing I've ever tasted" and then eats another and starts sobbing: "This one wasn't as good!"
> 
> also the nipple scene
> I basically judge Parks and Rec episodes by how much Chris Traeger they include)


Aww... Sorry, I hadn't yet encountered someone who loved him so much. 

He just... I don't know. To me, at least, his care for others seems fake and superficial. He's enthusiastic, but the a thesis, seems to be to comfort him, not to comfort others. And like... not even to mention that one time during election season when he did the thing with the campaign manager of the candy guy... and the thing with poor Jerry's daughter...

I feel how you feel about Chris about Tom, actually. I just love Tom. Always have. He's sort of terrible, but I really love him nonetheless. (And Ben, but... Ben is different. Ben it's more like he's perfect and sympathetic, not so much that he's hilarious.
)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Hmm... I'm not sure. This is different from what I'm saying, I think. If someone is vulnerable and it's appropriate for me to care for them (I would be more light-toned, obedient, and helpful, for instance, if I was in a crisis situation and my mom's boss was distressed), my tone is warm, encouraging, peaceful, soothing... But with what you're describing... Mm. Maybe a little, but I don't think as strongly as you seem to experience that behavior. It's more, if someone is depending on me for emotional strength I am there and calm and collected, but if it's just me depending on me I can freak out a little more.


I do imagine we would behave differently 

I was trying to get across that we both react differently depending on whether or not the people around us need help, or if we're the only ones capable of smoothing things out at the moment.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I do imagine we would behave differently
> 
> I was trying to get across that we both react differently depending on whether or not the people around us need help, or if we're the only ones capable of smoothing things out at the moment.


Through that frame I could certainly see how our reactions would be alike.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Same. Why is ISFJ such a satisfying type and ESFJ not?


Because even though they are stereotyped as boring stick in the muds, at least they have an accessible Ti. And a lot of the hate directed at ISFJs is actually hate against ESFJ behavior.

Plus, the world is full of immature ESFJs. So some of the hate is justified.

There's usually two variations of ESFJs in popular culture -- the super nice, accommodating ones, and the controlling, manipulating, bipolar, backstabbing version. People think of ESFJ, they think of highly emotional/irrational control freaks. At least the ISFJs aren't telling you how to run your life, right? =P



> I don't think I experience what you're describing about getting bored with people... I want to meet people, and the more the merrier, but I also love the people I do know. I don't think I could ever tire of my aunts, the people I went to high school with, my teachers, my mom's coworkers.


If people are interesting and have good conversational skills and share common interests with me, I love 'em. I never tire of them. If I find that it only takes a short time to reach "the end" of them, and they fail to inspire or challenge me to grow in any way, I soon tire of them. 



shinynotshiny said:


> That is inferior Ne at work and I do not see it in you. Why don't you embrace Ne as your tertiary? Is it because of Ti? You're still an abstract and analytical thinker no matter where Ti falls.


Because ... I feel like even though Ne appears to be quite vivacious online, it takes more effort to use it than I would think it would for an ESFJ. I can't brainstorm in the moment as well as some people can. They look at me for ideas and my mind goes blank, and I stammer out one or two. After several hours of creative writing that requires extensive Ne, I'm emotionally exhausted. I would also think that an ESFJ would be more open to at least trying things, but the minute a guy got serious on me, I freaked and pushed him away because the idea of changing so much about my life all at once made me go NOOOOO.

Lastly, I don't like most ESFJs, in real life or otherwise (too emotional, too interfering) so the thought of being one makes me kind of sad.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Aww... Sorry, I hadn't yet encountered someone who loved him so much.
> 
> He just... I don't know. To me, at least, his care for others seems fake and superficial. He's enthusiastic, but the a thesis, seems to be to comfort him, not to comfort others. And like... not even to mention that one time during election season when he did the thing with the campaign manager of the candy guy... and the thing with poor Jerry's daughter...
> 
> I feel how you feel about Chris about Tom, actually. I just love Tom. Always have. He's sort of terrible, but I really love him nonetheless. (And Ben, but... Ben is different. Ben it's more like he's perfect and sympathetic, not so much that he's hilarious.
> )


It's ok, I can get past someone not liking one of my favorite fictional characters haha)
Ok, the very first episode Chris was in I hated him, but he grew on me after a bit) There's a scene where Ben's at home making his stop-motion thing and Chris comes in insisting Ben's depressed...and the audience is thinking 'oh busybody Chris' and then...it turns out he's right.
Oh! Is that an example of Ni?
Ben though) I love Ben)
And Tom)))) There's some characters that just give me an unrealistically maternal feeling) Like...not just characters, also celebrities, I feel the same about Neil Patrick Harris and Jimmy Fallon for some reason) Just...please don't embarrass yourself Tom...and nothing bad's allowed to happen to you, ok?

Unpopular opinion: I've grown to dislike Leslie...I used to like her but slowly it dawned on me and started to grate on me how self-involved she is, and, I don't know, I stopped being able to root for her.




and I never liked Ron


edit: I was going to ask, would difficulty losing or keeping off weight hint as a sp instinct?


----------



## Persephone Soul

((( angelcat))) Hmmm... i have THOUGHT of xSFP. A lot actually. But I just cant get over the high Se. I have Se moments I think, but its "moments" of it. I am not a risk taker. I am super cautious actually. Bot because I know from experience how something happened in the past,but bec I just dont get a good vibe on things. Or I just "know" (whether I am right or not) how things will pan out. I can see all the ways something could end up happening, so I won't do something reckless. Although, I do say "f*** it" a lot, and just shut down all thoughts on any natter and go for it. I do act very in the moment, but given too much time to think things, my mind goes in very abstract territories. I literally work better at the moment. I do NOT plan. Lol I actually was just talking in depth with my mom about this last night. We were trying to make plans for my daughter's bday today, and I can't make a plan to save my life. Seriously. Its like, i have no idea what tomorrow brings, so how could I possibly commit to something. I live by the "play it by ear" phrase . 

Did my "crisis" comment say anything to you?


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Because ... I feel like even though Ne appears to be quite vivacious online, it takes more effort to use it than I would think it would for an ESFJ. I can't brainstorm in the moment as well as some people can. They look at me for ideas and my mind goes blank, and I stammer out one or two. After several hours of creative writing that requires extensive Ne, I'm emotionally exhausted. I would also think that an ESFJ would be more open to at least trying things, but the minute a guy got serious on me, I freaked and pushed him away because the idea of changing so much about my life all at once made me go NOOOOO.
> 
> Lastly, I don't like most ESFJs, in real life or otherwise (too emotional, too interfering) so the thought of being one makes me kind of sad.


One day.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

600 pages guys


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

alittlebear said:


> 600 pages guys


Damn, I considered posting that!

But seriously. How?


----------



## Immolate

Some of the guests should introduce themselves. 

Because 600 pages.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NGL I care more about view count than post count


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Damn, I considered posting that!
> 
> But seriously. How?


The funny thing is, we really _are_ still discussing my Introverted Percieving function.


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> ((( angelcat))) Hmmm... i have THOUGHT of xSFP. A lot actually. But I just cant get over the high Se. I have Se moments I think, but its "moments" of it. I am not a risk taker. I am super cautious actually. Bot because I know from experience how something happened in the past,but bec I just dont get a good vibe on things. Or I just "know" (whether I am right or not) how things will pan out. I can see all the ways something could end up happening, so I won't do something reckless. Although, I do say "f*** it" a lot, and just shut down all thoughts on any natter and go for it. I do act very in the moment, but given too much time to think things, my mind goes in very abstract territories. I literally work better at the moment. I do NOT plan. Lol I actually was just talking in depth with my mom about this last night. We were trying to make plans for my daughter's bday today, and I can't make a plan to save my life. Seriously. Its like, i have no idea what tomorrow brings, so how could I possibly commit to something. I live by the "play it by ear" phrase .


Not planning seems more an absence of high Te to me than anything else. I pretty much go with the flow, and sometimes make lists just so I accomplish something. The mere idea of making a plan seems ... tiring. Though, it rules out Ni-dom too, for the most part. Ni quite enjoys visualizing JUST HOW something is meant to unfold... like a wedding, for example. THIS IS HOW I WANT IT.

Being in abstract territories usually just means you're accessing an introverted function a lot. 



> Did my "crisis" comment say anything to you?


Eh, not really. How people react in a crisis isn't really type-related. You'll find an ESFP who freaks out, and one who doesn't.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Also, on the phone with my mom, I brought up how around her and everyone close in my life that I regularly associate with, I felt like a big fish in a little pond. As in, my thinking is SO different from ALL of them. Not one person thinks like me, and they all confirm that. I am the unusual one. I am deeper, more abstract, more matter of fact and (their words not mine) more intelligent. They will all talk and think so superficially (I don't mean that in the negative way) , and I am always like way beyond in my thoughts. Then I told her about this forum, and how I feel so inferior compared to all yuz. I suddenly become a small fish in a big pond lol

The way I was going on and on in my pondering, my mom was like "you're doing it again. You are going so far and beyond. I can't even understand your depth. And no, maybe your inferiority comes from you not having like-minded people around, so in that forum you have met your match"... she went on to say "and will you stop with the analogies and metaphors (I use them all the time. But they aren't all poetic. Just simple), my brain is spinning. "

LOL!


----------



## fair phantom

How 600 pages?

I don't know what it is like for everyone else, but I find I get frustrated/saddened/annoyed with other sections of the forum because of some of the topics and how people handle them. There is too much antagonism, disrespect,insensitivity, and passive-aggressive behavior for me. I like to come here where discussions are productive and/or fun and respectful, friendly.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Also, on the phone with my mom, I brought up how around her and everyone close in my life that I regularly associate with, I felt like a big fish in a little pond. As in, my thinking is SO different from ALL of them. Not one person thinks like me, and they all confirm that. I am the unusual one. I am deeper, more abstract, more matter of fact and (their words not mine) more intelligent. They will all talk and think so superficially (I don't mean that in the negative way) , and I am always like way beyond in my thoughts. Then I told her about this forum, and how I feel so inferior compared to all yuz. I suddenly become a small fish in a big pond lol
> 
> The way I was going on and on in my ponderings, my mom was like "you're


Don't feel inferior omg
Can you describe a little more specifically what you mean about the different thought processes?
What is different? What is deeper? What do you consider superficial?


----------



## Max

Off Topic, but we can have an off topic once in a while, right?:






Listen to this song. Close your eyes. Listen to the lyrics. The music. It envokes some amazing imagery.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> How do you engulf the material?
> 
> Hm... It appears like you have a disconnect from your external and internal self/reality?


I engulf the material by understanding it to the best of my ability. I listen and I connect it to my already existing understanding. I don't remember the dates, or the specific titles, or the specific poems, but I get the essence. And in high school, my getting the essence helped me get a lot out of school, not just that year, but the years after. 

And... yeah. Big disconnect between inner me and outer me. I'm working to change it, though. Part of it is anxiety, which I'm working on getting rid of, and part of it is some things I can't help (lisp, childlike voice, the body of a 13 year old), and part of it is just my mild manner... which I'm also working on, and which I hope is tied to the anxiety and can be eliminated, but it's still something that's there.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I engulf the material by understanding it to the best of my ability. I listen and I connect it to my already existing understanding. I don't remember the dates, or the specific titles, or the specific poems, but I get the essence. And in high school, my getting the essence helped me get a lot out of school, not just that year, but the years after.
> 
> And... yeah. Big disconnect between inner me and outer me. I'm working to change it, though. Part of it is anxiety, which I'm working on getting rid of, and part of it is some things I can't help (lisp, childlike voice, the body of a 13 year old), and part of it is just my mild manner... which I'm also working on, and which I hope is tied to the anxiety and can be eliminated, but it's still something that's there.


Do you go out of your way to learn material? Like do you just pay attention in class to every single research or do you also do outside research and blalalba?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> When I was in school, I _sort of_ did. Some of them identified as this too. ESFP, ISFJ, ISTP. And then there was the ENFP, the ENTP, who I actually knew quite well... and they learned, and did that thing where they seemed to not care or pay attention but absorbed everything the teacher said (even as they both inwardly and outwardly express their discontent that they even had to learn this stuff, it's not really useful, this is kind of stupid)... But I figured. Oh. I'm an Introvert and an Intuitive. Of course I'm not wanting to learn for practical reasons, but rather to better experience the idea world in my head and to hone my inner philosophical understanding.
> 
> Now I do think it is more complex than that. I had a girl who tested as NJ and who I can see as NJ who was in a class with me. She was quiet, seemed to not know/care but could talk lightly on philosophical topics you knew she had deeper thoughts than she showed on. But in class, you didn't see that. She answered the question. She texted sometimes. I think that my standard for judgment was a bit too harsh (really they were just pretentious jerks who thought they were superior to the lesser students... which is actually a pretty classically intuitive flaw, eh ;|)


It didn't read like _sort of_, and of course it's more complex than that. I just...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Do you go out of your way to learn material? Like do you just pay attention in class to every single research or do you also do outside research and blalalba?


It's actually kind of weird. I learn almost by not thinking about it. Of course I go home, I read the book (usually), I do what I'm required, but it's more the information settles in my head. The less I openly think about it, sometime, the more the information settles into my head and I subconsciously... I won't say I "master" it, because it's absurd to think an ordinary high school student could master a number of concepts, but I personally come to a solid comprehension of the idea. 

I sometimes do outside research, but not much. When an idea doesn't settle, I tend to go ask my teacher / professor for more clarification until I do fit it in.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> It didn't read like _sort of_, and of course it's more complex than that. I just...


You have a thing against bias against sensors and their lame loser status who are fine sitting in the world doing nothing but mundane stuff or doing crazy wild stuff like throwing themselves out of planes and you were just making it clear that sensors could have curious it's and it had nothing to do with alittlebear just your will to break sterotypes?

Or am I wrong? That's how I'm perceiving the situation


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> It's actually kind of weird. I learn almost by not thinking about it. Of course I go home, I read the book (usually), I do what I'm required, but it's more the information settles in my head. The less I openly think about it, sometime, the more the information settles into my head and I subconsciously... I won't say I "master" it, because it's absurd to think an ordinary high school student could master a number of concepts, but I personally come to a solid comprehension of the idea.
> 
> I sometimes do outside research, but not much. When an idea doesn't settle, I tend to go ask my teacher / professor for more clarification until I do fit it in.


*whispers* Ni....


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> It didn't read like _sort of_, and of course it's more complex than that. I just...


I'm kind of confused by your post. Sorry. 

But I do recognize that I am very judgmental about my former classmates. Like... I don't know, I could forgive my classmates for not caring if the thing was they only didn't care. But I also heard them abuse other students, malign anyone (for petty reasons - the state of someone's _teeth!_) who they thought it would be amusing to, just... be bullies. Of course I'm being kind discussing them now, but... There are certain types of people who really rub me the wrong way, and my former classmates fit into those categories.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> It's actually kind of weird. I learn almost by not thinking about it. Of course I go home, I read the book (usually), I do what I'm required, but it's more the information settles in my head. The less I openly think about it, sometime, the more the information settles into my head and I subconsciously... I won't say I "master" it, because it's absurd to think an ordinary high school student could master a number of concepts, but I personally come to a solid comprehension of the idea.
> 
> I sometimes do outside research, but not much. When an idea doesn't settle, I tend to go ask my teacher / professor for more clarification until I do fit it in.


That's really weird because I think do the same thing... Or I feel like I do the same thing? And I'm supposedly Ne. 

I let the idea find its place in my head and then it becomes quite comfortable. Which is basically settling. 

I did so badly on a trig practice test but a week later I aced the test with minimal studying ewe. I need time to understand things.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> You have a thing against bias against sensors and their lame loser status who are fine sitting in the world doing nothing but mundane stuff or doing crazy wild stuff like throwing themselves out of planes and you were just making it clear that sensors could have curious it's and it had nothing to do with alittlebear just your will to break sterotypes?
> 
> Or am I wrong? That's how I'm perceiving the situation


I don't start arguments for the sake of it, so yes, I'm disagreeing with the idea that intellectual curiosity or a desire to learn for the sake of learning is simply a thing intuitives do.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> *whispers* Ni....


Idontthinkso


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> *whispers* Ni....


I wonder if it couldn't be Si/Ti? I think a lot of this could be Ti, especially with me refining my understanding. I think the subconsciously getting concepts is suspiciously Ni sounding, but I wonder how Si would deal in the same circumstance.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I wonder if it couldn't be Si/Ti? I think a lot of this could be Ti, especially with me refining my understanding. I think the subconsciously getting concepts is suspiciously Ni sounding, but I wonder how Si would deal in the same circumstance.


Or it doesn't have anything to do with functions because we have completely opposite functions 8D

Oh wait. Si nevermind.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I wonder if it couldn't be Si/Ti? I think a lot of this could be Ti, especially with me refining my understanding. I think the subconsciously getting concepts is suspiciously Ni sounding, but I wonder how Si would deal in the same circumstance.


From my understanding, Si is more present. More attentive to details and how information is being taken in. I'm not saying Ni is smarter than Si or better at learning but specifically how you describe your learning process here:



> learn almost by not thinking about it. Of course I go home, I read the book (usually), I do what I'm required, but it's more the information settles in my head. The less I openly think about it, sometime, the more the information settles into my head and I subconsciously.


Sounds Ni. I have trouble seeing that as Si. It almost sounds anti-Si. At least that is my understanding. @angelcat ?


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Or it doesn't have anything to do with functions because we have completely opposite functions 8D
> 
> Oh wait. Si nevermind.


Well I can see _Ne_ doing that to some extent, but inferior Ne? I'm skeptical.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> That's really weird because I think do the same thing... Or I feel like I do the same thing? And I'm supposedly Ne.
> 
> I let the idea find its place in my head and then it becomes quite comfortable. Which is basically settling.
> 
> I did so badly on a trig practice test but a week later I aced the test with minimal studying ewe. I need time to understand things.


Yeah, like... Like when I have to read a book or something, I might read it once and quickly... and externally, I might not be spending time on it, but it still... lingers. It's hard to explain, really. Like right now the book I'm reading is settling in, but consciously I'm having no direct thoughts about it. But I feel it patting itself down nonetheless. 

It's oddly kind of similar to how my trauma is. (Different... because my trauma is a centralized hole in my head with loose, torturous stands stretching unfortunately throughout my thoughts, needing to be trimmed only so they can grow back again, but... similar.) With this, it's like... almost like... a cloud that's sort of a shape kind of falling to the ground, becoming more solid and ready to embrace the ground as it falls. Like Tetris, but with less of a defined shape and it starts as a cloud and you have to make more space on its own for it to go. If that makes sense. 

But I would not be surprised if we shared a Percieving function. We share _something_. Of course everyone does - that's part of what I love about MBTI - but something-wise we do match. Somewhere.


----------



## orbit

What if it turns out I'm an ISFP?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

On S and learning, I think I can bring up my ISFJ friend again. I think she loves to learn. Like me, she really soaks in what her professors say (and what her teachers have said during her non-college learning career). She is the ideal student, and it's quite beautiful. I mean, some things she doesn't care about as much and can self-reportedly slack in - art appreciation, for example, which she finds boring, and the basic English class we sort of took simultaneously - but you wouldn't believe how deeply she takes some of her classes, like the education and criminal justice class. She's stellar. I think that an enjoyment of learning is something that anyone can enjoy, and I was very wrong in my high school ignorance to think otherwise.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> What if it turns out I'm an ISFP?


Omg no where is your extreme dominant Fi


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Yeah, like... Like when I have to read a book or something, I might read it once and quickly... and externally, I might not be spending time on it, but it still... lingers. It's hard to explain, really. Like right now the book I'm reading is settling in, but consciously I'm having no direct thoughts about it. But I feel it patting itself down nonetheless.
> 
> It's oddly kind of similar to how my trauma is. (Different... because my trauma is a centralized hole in my head with loose, torturous stands stretching unfortunately throughout my thoughts, needing to be trimmed only so they can grow back again, but... similar.) With this, it's like... almost like... a cloud that's sort of a shape kind of falling to the ground, becoming more solid and ready to embrace the ground as it falls. Like Tetris, but with less of a defined shape and it starts as a cloud and you have to make more space on its own for it to go. If that makes sense.
> 
> But I would not be surprised if we shared a Percieving function. We share _something_. Of course everyone does - that's part of what I love about MBTI - but something-wise we do match. Somewhere.


I always feel like nothing is going in my mind because of this. >< People always have such strong opinions immediately after reading things and unless I'm forced to confront it early by other people, I just feel blank on it. Or not blank. I feel it but there aren't conscious, concrete thoughts

It would be weird if we truly did have different functions because we have some similarities (and tons of demographic differences XP as you mentioned). The question is where the similarity is?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Omg no where is your extreme dominant Fi


Where is my extreme dominant anything

I feel like someone is going to come onto the thread and be like I'm an ISTP or something and it's going to be a relevation.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I always feel like nothing is going in my mind because of this. >< People always have such strong opinions immediately after reading things and unless I'm forced to confront it early by other people, I just feel blank on it. Or not blank. I feel it but there aren't conscious, concrete thoughts
> 
> It would be weird if we truly did have different functions because we have some similarities (and tons of demographic differences XP as you mentioned). The question is where the similarity is?


Us being human, maybe? 

For me... Hmm. I kind of have nothing going on in my head, but I don't. I mean. This is harder to explain. Like I have a slight "buzz" I guess (not literally, but... the thoughts). Little strands of thought that I'm not even quite aware of, but which again... are there subconsciously. And I also have my thoughts that... aren't thoughts, they're like... just... understanding, I guess that's one word, but also like... perception. I have thoughts, but they aren't words, they're... indescribable, but they're there? Like they're thoughts but not clear thoughts, they're... matter. Mass. Form. Fluid. It's hard to explain them. 

But, like... I wonder if we don't all have this? I've always been sure that we all experience thoughts in that way, like we aren't always internally verbalizing our thoughts, but they're there nonetheless. (I'm describing it badly I think but I'm still pretty sure that what I'm describing about my thoughts, at least in this post, is a pretty human thing. We may not all be aware of it, but like I think this is how minds work.) 

Oh, and I do disagree with you about not forming opinions. That saying "The quietest people have the loudest minds" is _very_ true for me. I have a lot of opinions. Not ones I can always say, but... Opinions. Even when I'm soaking something in, I'm thinking "How cruel!" or "Wow, that's kind of jerky" and of course "That's not right." With logic it's harder - I will have to think very hard before speaking most the time in class, before trying to say something intelligent - but if we're talking value judgments, I'm totally there. My professor asks "Was the Trojan war just?" Everyone laughs because without even thinking I give a heartfelt _"No." _ (Admittedly this is sort of because this is another thought I had carved already, but also because... How can you justify killing all those people just to get a girl back? You can't. Paris shouldn't have stolen Meneleas' wife, okay, but it wasn't worth the lives of all those men and the destruction of that city. It's a no-brainer, I think, prior thought or not.)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> But, like... I wonder if we don't all have this? I've always been sure that we all experience thoughts in that way, like we aren't always internally verbalizing our thoughts, but they're there nonetheless. (I'm describing it badly I think but I'm still pretty sure that what I'm describing about my thoughts, at least in this post, is a pretty human thing. We may not all be aware of it, but like I think this is how minds work.)


I say we do.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I say we do.


I think that's another problem we have getting down to the bone with typing (and I think it's a problem you've been aware of this whole time, and have been trying to weed out). Some things we attribute to a certain type are almost universal and attributable to our human nature, while other things are at the opposite extreme and exist within us because we are individuals (as opposed to because we are XXXX type with Xx function). I'm not sure how we could begin separating the three - the human, the type, and the personal - but it is something I hope personality theorists ponder more deeply (and which I hope we can navigate around to locate our own types).


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> From my understanding, Si is more present. More attentive to details and how information is being taken in. I'm not saying Ni is smarter than Si or better at learning but specifically how you describe your learning process here:
> 
> Sounds Ni. I have trouble seeing that as Si. It almost sounds anti-Si. At least that is my understanding. @angelcat ?


Don't ask me. I've always firmly believed @alittlebear is an ENFJ, and every time she opens her mouth, I only become more convinced of it. LOL


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

alittlebear said:


> For me... Hmm. I kind of have nothing going on in my head, but I don't. I mean. This is harder to explain. Like I have a slight "buzz" I guess (not literally, but... the thoughts). Little strands of thought that I'm not even quite aware of, but which again... are there subconsciously. And I also have my thoughts that... aren't thoughts, they're like... just... understanding, I guess that's one word, but also like... perception. I have thoughts, but they aren't words, they're... indescribable, but they're there? Like they're thoughts but not clear thoughts, they're... matter. Mass. Form. Fluid. It's hard to explain them.
> 
> But, like... I wonder if we don't all have this? I've always been sure that we all experience thoughts in that way, like we aren't always internally verbalizing our thoughts, but they're there nonetheless. (I'm describing it badly I think but I'm still pretty sure that what I'm describing about my thoughts, at least in this post, is a pretty human thing. We may not all be aware of it, but like I think this is how minds work.)


This combined with your learning process....

Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni _ALL OF THE NI!

_



[I want in on the Cult of the 600-page Typing Thread]


----------



## fair phantom

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> This combined with your learning process....
> 
> Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni _ALL OF THE NI!
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> [I want in on the Cult of the 600-page Typing Thread]


Welcome!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> This combined with your learning process....
> 
> Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni Ni _ALL OF THE NI!_


But like... I really feel, especially in this post, that I'm just putting words to a natural process. I make these metaphors and conceptualize how I learn, how my brain works, but I think part of that is me just identifying what we all do (I guess because I've thought more about my brain than most kids, maybe? Which would make sense, because as someone with neurological disorders I've been figuring out the brain since I was small perhaps? Maybe? And I was introduced to basic neurology and psychology stuff in elementary gifted). Maybe the way I've described these processes could be Ni, but... I'm really not sure. 

(And besides, we didn't go 600 pages to settle this so easily, right?) 

(JK, even if/when I do settle on a type I think the continuation of this thread will be appropriate because we've unhinged so many personal type perceptions, now we have to reassemble them.) 

Thank you for your input, though. It is appreciated.  (and you too, @angelcat, but you just said what you said earlier and I didn't want to be _too_ repetitive for thanking you for the same thing on the same day)

And SOE, please feel welcome here. If you comment, we comment back.  It's not too exclusionary of a place, or at least I like to think it isn't.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I say we do.


SoitisntanNithing

We've deconstructed types yay


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> SoitisntanNithing


Honestly if your mind doesn't work like that please speak up?

I know the lovely (I don't know if I should feel bad for using that descriptive word sarcastically for a person) DJArendee said something like "Ne gives people endless thoughts, their mind is always full of thoughts, they can never decide what to think their mind is just bursting" or something like that... But even then, I wonder if that wasn't an exaggeration. (@Greyhart?) Some things are type related, but I think the basic experience of the mind is something that - while different to each of us because we are all different persons with different circumstance and of course different thought - is mildly universal.


----------



## 68097

@alittlebear: I think you're undermined by worrying about what people will _think_ of you claiming to be an ENFJ, on the rare chance you're _not_ one. That could be preventing you from embracing your true type -- forcing you into your super-analytical, self-doubting inferior Ti, which is ... over-analyzing things.

I understand. I don't want to claim ESFJ if I'm not one either. 

The mere idea makes me go:










I want certainty, and I don't want to be "speaking" for a group of people if I am not sure about my type. The thought that I might be an ESFJ and have been claiming, and speaking for, and debunking and challenging myths about ISFJs for months has me feeling nauseated. I dispersed incorrect information? UGH! I HATE THAT. Who, then, will speak for them? Or am I wrong and a lot of them simply are ... as the stereotypes paint them to be? Worse, what if I claim to be an ESFJ and then find out later I'm not one, because I can't function on a Fe-level with people for all that long? Then I've done it again.

You seem to learn unconsciously and easily. Do you find that when stumped with a problem, you can sleep on it, or not consciously think of it, only to have the answer "come" to you as if out of nowhere?


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear a natural process yes, but that doesn't mean it is a process _that everyone has_, or at least not the process that everyone uses _to the extent that you do_. I am an intuitive learner...but I don't think I learn primarily the way you describe.


----------



## Greyhart

Guuyyyyyyyyyys I just woke up, started making my bed when this lil shit ran right over my pillow omg. One female of these species lay over 80 eggs and they probably live in the old furniture I sleep on now. I want back to my parents flat. How do I ever sleep now? HOW?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> SoitisntanNithing
> 
> 
> 
> We've deconstructed types yay



We don't need to mentally verbalize our memories to know them or mentally verbalize the word red to perceive something as red, for example. Some thoughts or ideas or feelings just ARE. Usually our perception of a thing is faster than our ability to put it into words or become fully aware of it. I mean, we may consciously think in words but our mind isn't just a collection of words. It's hard to go back to the post on my phone but those thoughts that aren't "thoughts" but are simply "knowing" is one way our mind works. My point of view, anyway. Maybe she means something else.


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> Guuyyyyyyyyyys I just woke up, started making my bed when this lil shit ran right over my pillow omg. One female of these species lay over 80 eggs and they probably live in the old furniture I sleep on now. I want back to my parents flat. How do I ever sleep now? HOW?


Why did I click the link. Why did I do it. Whyyyy. *is phobic*

I am so so sorry.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> @alittlebear: I think you're undermined by worrying about what people will _think_ of you claiming to be an ENFJ, on the rare chance you're _not_ one. That could be preventing you from embracing your true type -- forcing you into your super-analytical, self-doubting inferior Ti, which is ... over-analyzing things.
> 
> I understand. I don't want to claim ESFJ if I'm not one either.
> 
> The mere idea makes me do go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want certainty, and I don't want to be "speaking" for a group of people if I am not sure about my type. The thought that I might be an ESFJ and have been claiming, and speaking for, and debunking and challenging myths about ISFJs for months has me feeling nauseated. I dispersed incorrect information? UGH! I HATE THAT. Who, then, will speak for them? Or am I wrong and a lot of them simply are ... as the stereotypes paint them to be? Worse, what if I claim to be an ESFJ and then find out later I'm not one, because I can't function on a Fe-level with people for all that long? Then I've done it again.
> 
> You seem to learn unconsciously and easily. Do you find that when stumped with a problem, you can sleep on it, or not consciously think of it, only to have the answer "come" to you as if out of nowhere?


That's honestly my problem. I would hate to identify as something I'm not, especially something that is so coveted by too many people familiar with MBTI like an NJ typing. 

I do experience an answer just "coming" to me. In the Cognitive Functions forum I saw an ENTJ explain that he experienced Ni that way, by just having answers come to him out of nowhere, even/especially when he's not thinking of them... and yes, that's a thing for me. I'll be out on a lake and, oh, suddenly I understand the true cause of the French Revolution. (Not a real example - pretty sure the cause of the French Revolution is a pretty basic thing? - but realizations like that do come to me.) 

Another part of it is that I do pull the answer from me. I'll have an essay due in a week and a half, and, oddly (it weirds me out a little, and makes me feel like a cheater honestly) my best essays come because I let them sit. I read the text. I muse over it consciously, then let the stuff from the text and the essay prompt sit together. A night or two before the essay is due, I lift my thoughts out to prepare and find that more comprehension and depth is there from when I last directly pondered the work. This hasn't always produced the optimal results my professors want, but it has worked for me for most my life. 

On representing a group... My ISFJ friend and I disagree here. I _love_ to represent something. People, things, whatever. One of my dreams is actually to be a mascot, so I can represent the spirit of the school in an official way. (I say "official" because tbh I have always represented the spirit/heart of the groups I'm apart of... but it's different if you're like, literally the representation of that.) It's the same with the groups I identify with. I love to represent Catholics. I love to represent women. I love to represent people with Tourette's. I love to represent asexuals. I love to represent this generation. I just love to stand for something larger than myself in the eyes of others. 

My room mate completely disagrees with me on this. I'm honestly laughing to myself, knowing how firmly she does not feel this way. She does not like speaking above herself. She is her. She speaks for [her name]. She dislikes it when she is set as "the female voice," "the feminist voice," "the Christian voice". I even told her that I almost referred to her as "my Christian friend" in one of my class discussions, and she did the thing where emotionally her eyes went wide and she felt uncomfortable just at the thought. (And oh dear, I just hope they don't find this place, you know.) 

But we are different in this regard. I'm not sure if it's a type thing or a modesty thing, but... It's a thing.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Guuyyyyyyyyyys I just woke up, started making my bed when this lil shit ran right over my pillow omg. One female of these species lay over 80 eggs and they probably live in the old furniture I sleep on now. I want back to my parents flat. How do I ever sleep now? HOW?



My sympathies. I screamed inside my head.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Guuyyyyyyyyyys I just woke up, started making my bed when this lil shit ran right over my pillow omg. One female of these species lay over 80 eggs and they probably live in the old furniture I sleep on now. I want back to my parents flat. How do I ever sleep now? HOW?


But she's beautiful! 

Is she harmful?


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> We don't need to mentally verbalize our memories to know them or mentally verbalize the word red to perceive something as red, for example. Some thoughts or ideas or feelings just ARE. Usually our perception of a thing is faster than our ability to put it into words or become fully aware of it. I mean, we may consciously think in words but our mind isn't just a collection of words. It's hard to go back to the post on my phone but those thoughts that aren't "thoughts" but are simply "knowing" is one way our mind works. My point of view, anyway. Maybe she means something else.


It seemed like she was describing something more than that. What you described is, I agree, probably universal. :/


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> It seemed like she was describing something more than that. What you described is, I agree, probably universal. :/


Do you mean learning subconsciously? Because I'm talking about a specific point she made in that post.



> For me... Hmm. I kind of have nothing going on in my head, but I don't. I mean. This is harder to explain. Like I have a slight *"buzz"* I guess (not literally, but... the thoughts). *Little strands of thought that I'm not even quite aware of*, but which again... are there subconsciously. And I also have my *thoughts that... aren't thoughts, they're like... just... understanding*, I guess that's one word, but also like... *perception*. I have *thoughts, but they aren't words*, they're... indescribable, but they're there? Like *they're thoughts but not clear thoughts*, they're... matter. Mass. Form. Fluid. It's hard to explain them.
> 
> But, like... I wonder if we don't all have this?* I've always been sure that we all experience thoughts in that way, like we aren't always internally verbalizing our thoughts, but they're there nonetheless.* (I'm describing it badly I think but I'm still pretty sure that what I'm describing about my thoughts, at least in this post, is a pretty human thing. We may not all be aware of it, but like I think this is how minds work.)


It just reads natural and familiar to me.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> That's honestly my problem. I would hate to identify as something I'm not, especially something that is so coveted by too many people familiar with MBTI like an NJ typing.
> 
> I do experience an answer just "coming" to me. In the Cognitive Functions forum I saw an ENTJ explain that he experienced Ni that way, by just having answers come to him out of nowhere, even/especially when he's not thinking of them... and yes, that's a thing for me. I'll be out on a lake and, oh, suddenly I understand the true cause of the French Revolution. (Not a real example - pretty sure the cause of the French Revolution is a pretty basic thing? - but realizations like that do come to me.)
> 
> Another part of it is that I do pull the answer from me. I'll have an essay due in a week and a half, and, oddly (it weirds me out a little, and makes me feel like a cheater honestly) my best essays come because I let them sit. I read the text. I muse over it consciously, then let the stuff from the text and the essay prompt sit together. A night or two before the essay is due, I lift my thoughts out to prepare and find that more comprehension and depth is there from when I last directly pondered the work. This hasn't always produced the optimal results my professors want, but it has worked for me for most my life.


You are Ni. I banish you from the SFJ club. This pretty much confirms it for me, on top of my observance of how you think, which correlates exactly with another ENFJ in my life. Not that I ever had much doubt, but there was a little. I kept over-thinking it, but... SFJ never "fit" my perception of you. 



> On representing a group... My ISFJ friend and I disagree here. I _love_ to represent something. People, things, whatever. One of my dreams is actually to be a mascot, so I can represent the spirit of the school in an official way. (I say "official" because tbh I have always represented the spirit/heart of the groups I'm apart of... but it's different if you're like, literally the representation of that.) It's the same with the groups I identify with. I love to represent Catholics. I love to represent women. I love to represent people with Tourette's. I love to represent asexuals. I love to represent this generation. I just love to stand for something larger than myself in the eyes of others.
> 
> My room mate completely disagrees with me on this. I'm honestly laughing to myself, knowing how firmly she does not feel this way. She does not like speaking above herself. She is her. She speaks for [her name]. She dislikes it when she is set as "the female voice," "the feminist voice," "the Christian voice". I even told her that I almost referred to her as "my Christian friend" in one of my class discussions, and she did the thing where emotionally her eyes went wide and she felt uncomfortable just at the thought. (And oh dear, I just hope they don't find this place, you know.)
> 
> But we are different in this regard. I'm not sure if it's a type thing or a modesty thing, but... It's a thing.


I've always felt a need to champion causes, and to speak up if no one else will. If I have to be the ONE person who does it, so be it. If I have to be the ONE person who stands up for what I believe is right, so be it. If I have to be the ONE person fighting for something, so be it. I'll do it. I never really think about it much, I just do it. If I think Christianity needs defended, I do it. If I think this or that group needs defended, I do it. I get angry at people who misrepresent an entire group of people, so naturally I don't want to too eagerly leap on the ESFJ bandwagon.

(I keep reading stuff about them and ... I don't know that I'm extroverted. I wish I had more experience to draw upon, in being around people -- I wish I knew if I kept silent in groups out of politeness, or fear of speaking up. That's what's keeping me from embracing it, the idea that ... I take time to warm up to people. Even friends I haven't seen for awhile. I hold people at a distance. But is that because I've gotten hurt before, or because I'm reserved/introverted?)


----------



## Immolate

I don't understand. Really, I don't. Because what she describes as her thought process and the way she lets things sit and how she writes her best essays is just... I mean, do the majority of people here not relate? Truly?


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Do you mean learning subconsciously? Because I'm talking about a specific point she made in that post.
> 
> 
> 
> It just reads natural and familiar to me.


tbh I was connecting it with her previous statements. Elaborations rather than substitutions perhaps this is incorrect. But even this passage alone doesnt seem right to me. It sounds way more like how my infj describes his mental workings rather than what I experience. At some points my mind must resemble it, but it rarely shuts up long enough for me to realize it.

The fact that it reads natural and familiar to you _could be because you are an Ni-dom_.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> tbh I was connecting it with her previous statements. Elaborations rather than substitutions perhaps this is incorrect. But even this passage alone doesnt seem right to me. It sounds way more like how my infj describes his thought process rather than what I experience. Obviously at some points my mind must resemble it, but it rarely shuts up long enough for me to realize it.
> 
> *The fact that it reads natural and familiar to you could be because you are an Ni-dom.*


I don't know, phantom. I have no clue anymore. What she describes does not feel out of this world to me and it boggles my mind how other people don't relate.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't understand. Really, I don't. Because what she describes as her thought process and the way she lets things sit and how she writes her best essays is just... I mean, do the majority of people here not relate? Truly?


I'm honestly wondering the same thing.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NGL a little at loss for words because I never thought I would be banished from the SFJ club before. This is something I could never anticipate. 

That aside, while I work through my reluctance to change back to ENFJ, 

I _completely_ agree with what you're saying about being the one person to stand up for the cause. I've felt that way my whole life, and it really made me think I was at odds with Fe because the descriptions make it seem as if Fe is completely incapable of this, because Fe of course only does what the group wants and cannot stand alone! How laughable. I'm glad that there are other clearly Fe people who are recognize that we don't do this, and non-FJ people who are willing to adapt their view of Fe to accommodate our true nature. 

I have a comment about your extroversion (that ties into the character post you made earlier about the nineteenth century novels), but I'll have to wait until a little bit more of a later time or at least post to elaborate on it.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Us being human, maybe?
> 
> For me... Hmm. I kind of have nothing going on in my head, but I don't. I mean. This is harder to explain. Like I have a slight "buzz" I guess (not literally, but... the thoughts). Little strands of thought that I'm not even quite aware of, but which again... are there subconsciously. And I also have my thoughts that... aren't thoughts, they're like... just... understanding, I guess that's one word, but also like... perception. I have thoughts, but they aren't words, they're... indescribable, but they're there? Like they're thoughts but not clear thoughts, they're... matter. Mass. Form. Fluid. It's hard to explain them.


This, I relate to. The answers out of nowhere? Not at all. Not knowing what I'm going to write in an essay until I do it? Not at all. 

I float in reality. Fragments of thoughts cycle through my mind. One comment triggers a memory, and thrusts it to the surface unbidden. One remark and I have a reference for it, a source, a movie quote, a song lyric. I have no words for how I think. 

Once, an INTJ asked me to describe how I think, what I see. I couldn't. That baffled him, because he can kind of describe it -- in vague, poetic, romanticized, abstract terminology. He said his mind was like a great internal clock, with gears constantly turning, processing new information, until it fit seamlessly into the clock. 

I honestly can't say how I think. I just... think. And observe. And feel. And entertain ideas. Most of the time, I feel like I am stretching out my hand after something profound, like I can just grasp the edge of it, and then it's gone and the void returns. I don't know that I can honestly explore ideas without ... getting them out of me, into the world. Writing about them. Talking about them. Discussing them. Mom says at work, I sit there and talk under my breath while I write sometimes; she can "see" me thinking through my lips moving. (I'm doing it now, as a matter of fact.) People say this is Te, but it can't be, because I do it, so I think it must be also Ne, to some regard. Like, I have to SAY it, to get it out of me, to fully comprehend it, or to make it whole.



shinynotshiny said:


> I don't know, phantom. I have no clue anymore. What she describes does not feel out of this world to me and it boggles my mind how other people don't relate.


The way you challenge things, and question them, and other things about you ... I've always thought you were a Ni-dom and barring that, a Ni-aux.


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny @alittlebear

My mind is very active. It seeks out. Certainly sometimes things just come to me, but it is quick, like a spark, and I am very attentive as I'm reading. If it is for class I'm underlining and evaluating and taking at least mental notes rather than primarily absorbing.

LOL now I'm feeling mentally deficient.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> @shinynotshiny @alittlebear
> 
> My mind is very active. It seeks out. Certainly sometimes things just come to me, but it is quick, like a spark, and I am very attentive as I'm reading. If it is for class I'm underlining and evaluating and taking at least mental notes rather than primarily absorbing.
> 
> LOL now I'm feeling mentally deficient.


You are _not_ mentally deficient. What you're describing sounds brilliant, too. Of course all minds are brilliant, honestly, but there's nothing at all inferior about the little peek you just provided into your own mind world.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> NGL a little at loss for words because I never thought I would be banished from the SFJ club before. This is something I could never anticipate.


Ha, ha, well you know I don't mean it cruelly. We can stay friends. 



> I _completely_ agree with what you're saying about being the one person to stand up for the cause. I've felt that way my whole life, and it really made me think I was at odds with Fe because the descriptions make it seem as if Fe is completely incapable of this, because Fe of course only does what the group wants and cannot stand alone! How laughable. I'm glad that there are other clearly Fe people who are recognize that we don't do this, and non-FJ people who are willing to adapt their view of Fe to accommodate our true nature.


Fe might work that way in some people, but not in me. If I have to be the one non-politically-correct person in the room to address the purple elephant in the corner, I'll do it. I once took on an entire group in one go, who all disagreed with me on just about everything. I went home mad and incredulous at their attitudes considering they were a church group but ... I didn't cave to them. I didn't drink when they pressured me to. I don't do things that I think are wrong, when other people ask me to do them. Forget it. Fe will absolutely go against group values if it believes the group values are wrong.



> I have a comment about your extroversion (that ties into the character post you made earlier about the nineteenth century novels), but I'll have to wait until a little bit more of a later time or at least post to elaborate on it.


I hope you remember what I said, because I sure don't. LOL


----------



## Immolate

@angelcat @fair phantom

I'm still sitting here all mind-boggled.

Also, don't feel that way, phantom :th_cool:


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> @angelcat @fair phantom
> 
> I'm still sitting here all mind-boggled.
> 
> Also, don't feel that way, phantom :th_cool:


Why, because we can't relate to how your mind works, or some other reason?


----------



## Max

fair phantom said:


> [MENTION=229794]Now I'm feeling mentally deficient.


Reminded me of this:


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Why, because we can't relate to how your mind works, or some other reason?


Because these are things I considered natural for everyone. I never considered them out of the ordinary. And I'm still skeptical :ninja:


----------



## fair phantom

but we're literally talking about cognition. if it is the same for everyone then there shouldn't be any types at all.

right?


----------



## Dangerose

@alittlebear, I'm not sure if I have the same thought processes as you.
If I were to describe I'd say that my mind is like...a lake, and all the ideas are little fish swimming around, they're down there and I'm not necessarily aware of them unless I'm looking for them, except for the few at the top of the water or something. 

Usually in school I would just write the essay before the day it was due but I'd start thinking about it beforehand, maybe just on the backburner. And generally by that point enough related fish would have come up to the surface and I'd have collected enough fish in my little boat or at least know where they are in the lake (or maybe I will discover that they've laid eggs or something, I don't know) that I would already basically know what I was going to write. 

I wouldn't say ideas 'just come' to me, but the fish swim around and I might go looking for one in particular.

Is this similar to what you mean?

edit: mixed metaphors a lot. Let's say for any particular topic of interest, I put out a little skiffy in a part of the lake, maybe not a very prominent part of the lake (the backburner) and it will collect relevant fishes.

But there is also a danger of fish going rotten, which is why I try to act on my ideas the moment they come across my brain, or they'll go bad and lose their freshness.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Because these are things I considered natural for everyone. I never considered them out of the ordinary. And I'm still skeptical :ninja:


Yeah. Ni-dom would be. Just sayin'.

Also, I'm sitting here laughing, because "my" INTJ just realized the other day that OTHER PEOPLE DO NOT THINK LIKE I DO and his brain just about exploded. It was so unfathomable to him he can hardly wrap his mind around it.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> but we're literally talking about cognition. if it is the same for everyone then there shouldn't be any types at all.
> 
> right?


I didn't consider it that way. It just... was. I don't even know how to explain myself anymore lol


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> @alittlebear, I'm not sure if I have the same thought processes as you.
> If I were to describe I'd say that my mind is like...a lake, and all the ideas are little fish swimming around, they're down there and I'm not necessarily aware of them unless I'm looking for them, except for the few at the top of the water or something.
> 
> Usually in school I would just write the essay before the day it was due but I'd start thinking about it beforehand, maybe just on the backburner. And generally by that point enough related fish would have come up to the surface and I'd have collected enough fish in my little boat or at least know where they are in the lake (or maybe I will discover that they've laid eggs or something, I don't know) that I would already basically know what I was going to write.
> 
> I wouldn't say ideas 'just come' to me, but the fish swim around and I might go looking for one in particular.
> 
> Is this similar to what you mean?


I can better relate to this. Also the imagery made me smile.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Yeah. Ni-dom would be. Just sayin'.
> 
> Also, I'm sitting here laughing, because "my" INTJ just realized the other day that OTHER PEOPLE DO NOT THINK LIKE I DO and his brain just about exploded. It was so unfathomable to him he can hardly wrap his mind around it.


Honestly I had a moment where everything turned cold and I just ballooned and it was like staring into a fun-house mirror. I'll need to sleep on it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> This, I relate to. The answers out of nowhere? Not at all. Not knowing what I'm going to write in an essay until I do it? Not at all.
> 
> I float in reality. Fragments of thoughts cycle through my mind. One comment triggers a memory, and thrusts it to the surface unbidden. One remark and I have a reference for it, a source, a movie quote, a song lyric. I have no words for how I think.
> 
> Once, an INTJ asked me to describe how I think, what I see. I couldn't. That baffled him, because he can kind of describe it -- in vague, poetic, romanticized, abstract terminology. He said his mind was like a great internal clock, with gears constantly turning, processing new information, until it fit seamlessly into the clock.
> 
> I honestly can't say how I think. I just... think. And observe. And feel. And entertain ideas. Most of the time, I feel like I am stretching out my hand after something profound, like I can just grasp the edge of it, and then it's gone and the void returns. I don't know that I can honestly explore ideas without ... getting them out of me, into the world. Writing about them. Talking about them. Discussing them. Mom says at work, I sit there and talk under my breath while I write sometimes; she can "see" me thinking through my lips moving. (I'm doing it now, as a matter of fact.) People say this is Te, but it can't be, because I do it, so I think it must be also Ne, to some regard. Like, I have to SAY it, to get it out of me, to fully comprehend it, or to make it whole.
> 
> 
> 
> The way you challenge things, and question them, and other things about you ... I've always thought you were a Ni-dom and barring that, a Ni-aux.


That's one thing I envy Si/Ne, what you described towards the top for having a media reference for most anything. So many kids I know - gifted kids, drama kids, kids in my 7th grade gym class - just... thought like that, it seemed. Or they interacted like that. One kid in particular I remember it with, and I know he's ENTP... It's like they think in gifts. They quote movies back and forth to each other. I cannot do that. I can't quote / remember quotes to save my life (I am the absolute worst at scripture memory, as I think I've mentioned before), and I envy those who can. If only for conversational purposes. 

I relate a bit to your stretching out towards the profound thing? Only with me... Sometimes I let it rest, loose, be, but when I don't have another thing on my mind I will reach out until I do get at least a loose grasp on it, connect it and tuck it away with my other understanding. (Or bolden the wandering thought so it answers itself later.) 

I do write things down... I'm actually keeping a journal right now of my impressions of the books I'm reading this summer, h thoughts on their cores, their meaning, at least what I'm getting out of them this read (because it's ridiculous to think anyone can figure out a novel especially in even close to its entirety in one read.) I've discovered that while when I read a book I feel I have a good grasp on it, the book condenses into other understandings, blending, and folds with my current understandings and tangles itself with what I know. I can't remember some of my specific thoughts... Example, I loved _The Crucible_ and _Beloved_, but I can hardly remember now why they shook my soul as they did. By keeping the light analysis journal, I'm hoping to preserve some of these impressions and ease my transition into being an actual English Major. 

And with story ideas... I do the most in my head. Can't talk it out, that poisons the idea. I can write it out, bit I'm only trying to jot down what I've decided in my head. I guess I do the lip thing too, but more once a month when I'm having a firm thought or something. 

It is a bit... I don't know. When you said much earlier in the thread that you thought in lists... It just surprised me, because I can't imagine thinking in lists? Later I realized that perhaps I think in lists, but... I don't know. I more think in words, and the words are only the screen that lingers above the other things I've described here about my mind.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Can inferior Ne and Se become full of wanderlust? I know that Ne is known for the doom and gloom, of all the possible ways something could go wrong... but could it also be the opposite? Like all you wanna do is fly away? Where you say, screw it and just impulsively go for it? What are all the different looks of inferior Ne and Se?


First of all, I don't think you're Pi dominant.
Secondly...I think it's more likely with inferior Se. I imagine inferior Se being like, "I KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GREAT GOING OUT IN THE COUNTRY AND DRIVING THE CAR AS FAST AS IT CAN GO" or like...I'm kind-of basing this sort of thing off my ENTJ friend, I don't think I know any Ni-doms IRL so it might be a bit different, but she'll like...do that, not in a suicidey way though, or go roof-hacking, really weirdly intense and risky physical experiences. (She uses Se quite a bit in daily life too but I think it's because it's tertiary not inferior). 

Whereas inferior Ne is more like "I AM TRAPPED BY ALL THESE IDEAS!" I imagine it like this:









I think wanderlust would be more high Se or Ne, probably Se the most
Although...hm

This new NFP thing is really clicking for me (though if anyone wants to challenge that, go ahead) but I'm trying to figure out if I'm inferior Te or inferior Si so I've been trying to figure out what these would _really_ be

Like, I'll go in these bursts where I'll just...get sh*t done.
I'll be waffling, stagnating, procrastinating, tossing around ideas, whatever, and then I'll go in turbo-charge mode and cross things off my checklist right and left. It's like there's always this niggling thing in the back of my mind saying, "There's a to-do list, there's a to-do list" and I'll suddenly go, "And it is time for the to-do list to go!" and I'll do everything on it.
Is this inferior Te? Because if so, being in the grip is my favorite thing ever, it's so satisfying, it's like getting everything off my plate and making everything start anew, like a big rainstorm and then the world feels reborn.
(I don't want to jinx it but I feel like I'm on the cusp of one of these right now; like maaayyybe I'm gonna finish all these stupid projects I've been mulling over forever and finally get to start all over again. maybe.)


So, this is my question: do inferior functions have to be bad when they manifest? Or could Se really just be wanderlust, like, "you've spent enough time in your head now with your crazy theories; now you're going to actually see the world and have fun" or could Ne be "it's time for a change; gonna resettle all your old thoughts and it's not going to be very bad"


----------



## Greyhart

@ElliCat


> I lived on inhalers and the nebuliser was a permanent fixture in the kitchen from autumn to early spring. I'm naughty and don't take my preventative anymore, but as soon as I start getting sick I start that up again, and keep Ventolin as a reserve. It's funny because as a teenager I was really lazy and would just call up my doctor to re-write my scripts without going to see him (he'd been my doctor since I was 2 so he knew me really well), and when I moved to another city in my mid-20's and had to go see a new doctor to get my scripts repeated, she took one look at my old ones and went, ".... so, is your asthma actually that bad?!"
> 
> Apparently they were super strong. I was so used to it that I'd never really thought about it. So now I've downgraded back to a more normal strength, and haven't really noticed a difference.


I used to live on anti-allergic pills as a kid and teen but stopped taking after school. Funny thing I grew up with animals and had some allergic reactions to them but with years it disappeared. Inhalers are magic, tho. When I couldn't use them (because grandma thought they caused... addiction?!) it took me about 3 hours to kills of one asthma attack by taking a cocktail of medication that would leave with extremely low blood pressure, tachycardia and drowsiness (later one for the next 24 hours). And then I and like 1-2 hours of sleep and had to go to school. Maaaan, did my school years suck.



> Oh my goodness! I'm not allergic to those but I can't stand the smell of either. That must make it really convenient to go out - do a lot of people smoke on the street over there? I have to walk through clouds of cigarette smoke every time I go through downtown or walk from the train station to my school. :-/


Fortunately I'm not allergic to _cigarettes_ but cigars you know, big sausages... Cuba? Those became fashionable among this country's edition of fuckboys. I basically avoid any cafes that might have those which means anything that isn't centered around fastfood or desserts. 



> Oh yes this sounds familiar. From what I can tell as Ne-aux I don't have as many ideas, and they don't come anywhere near as quickly, and the weeding-out process is much easier. But this general process is how my mind works too.


Weeding out is pain. Too many ideas and they continue multiplying even while I am trying to discard them.

P.S. you are legit onto something with "Fi with Fe ideals" and connection to instincts.


@Oswin Good Si (inferior) for me... I don't have many good memories but I do like talking about various nostalgic fandoms I am in. Or talking about my days in various MMOGs. I also really enjoy comfy environment, good smells and tastes. ... Sounds too generic to be specific to Si. :\ Well, those are main "physical" experiences that have any meaning to me. Comfy/tasty/pleasant.


----------



## Dangerose

ElliCat said:


> I think they're important (at least logically and in theory I think they're important). I don't find myself focusing on that sort of thing in day-to-day life though. It's kind of like, half forgetting about it, and half feeling like I'd have no power in that area even if I did care enough to focus on it? If I wanted to change something on that kind of scale, I'd first need to figure out how it works and then figure out what to do and where to start and.... nope. No clue.


Oh, when I said 'not important' I actually meant 'not important' for what my variants are, not that wars aren't important...though maybe it's still a good example for how things stand in my mind) Except that I do think these things are important...just maybe not for me)


----------



## Adena

@Oswin INFP?  What makes you think that? @alittlebear is that Jessica Lange in your avatar? xD Also, you're back to ENFJ! Can I have so explanations?


----------



## Greyhart

Ultimate INFP character


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can inferior Ne and Se become full of wanderlust? I know that Ne is known for the doom and gloom, of all the possible ways something could go wrong... but could it also be the opposite? Like all you wanna do is fly away? Where you say, screw it and just impulsively go for it? What are all the different looks of inferior Ne and Se?
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, I don't think you're Pi dominant.
> Secondly...I think it's more likely with inferior Se. I imagine inferior Se being like, "I KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GREAT GOING OUT IN THE COUNTRY AND DRIVING THE CAR AS FAST AS IT CAN GO" or like...I'm kind-of basing this sort of thing off my ENTJ friend, I don't think I know any Ni-doms IRL so it might be a bit different, but she'll like...do that, not in a suicidey way though, or go roof-hacking, really weirdly intense and risky physical experiences. (She uses Se quite a bit in daily life too but I think it's because it's tertiary not inferior).
> 
> Whereas inferior Ne is more like "I AM TRAPPED BY ALL THESE IDEAS!" I imagine it like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think wanderlust would be more high Se or Ne, probably Se the most
> Although...hm
> 
> This new NFP thing is really clicking for me (though if anyone wants to challenge that, go ahead) but I'm trying to figure out if I'm inferior Te or inferior Si so I've been trying to figure out what these would _really_ be
> 
> Like, I'll go in these bursts where I'll just...get sh*t done.
> I'll be waffling, stagnating, procrastinating, tossing around ideas, whatever, and then I'll go in turbo-charge mode and cross things off my checklist right and left. It's like there's always this niggling thing in the back of my mind saying, "There's a to-do list, there's a to-do list" and I'll suddenly go, "And it is time for the to-do list to go!" and I'll do everything on it.
> Is this inferior Te? Because if so, being in the grip is my favorite thing ever, it's so satisfying, it's like getting everything off my plate and making everything start anew, like a big rainstorm and then the world feels reborn.
> (I don't want to jinx it but I feel like I'm on the cusp of one of these right now; like maaayyybe I'm gonna finish all these stupid projects I've been mulling over forever and finally get to start all over again. maybe.)
> 
> 
> So, this is my question: do inferior functions have to be bad when they manifest? Or could Se really just be wanderlust, like, "you've spent enough time in your head now with your crazy theories; now you're going to actually see the world and have fun" or could Ne be "it's time for a change; gonna resettle all your old thoughts and it's not going to be very bad"
Click to expand...

 Exactly my thoughts. On everything. Although, I HAVE been saying , I think you're like me... ENFP - Fi . Have you read that description yet? Well, actually I dont know if that is what I am. It is what I always score in socionics. And for awhile I was going back and forth between INFP and ENFP, so it made sense. I think my Te is too high to be INFP and my Si is too high to be ENFP. Yet I know I cant be Fe dom. Both Fe dom and inferior Ti just don't match. I do however feel like ISFJ could fit, if I found out I do infact use Fe, and not Te... and if it explained my paralyzation that happens when I have too many options. What the heck am I?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Greyhart said:


> Ultimate INFP character



Wow oh wow. Where did you find that? It is very relatable.


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> Wow oh wow. Where did you find that? It is very relatable.


https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/23-519/1-for-1-Emily-and-the-Strangers


----------



## Dangerose

(Uggghhhh do you ever get halfway through writing a story/book thing (not storybook) and _then_ you realize you have written a meandering mess which nonetheless has some good points that you do not want to see go to waste, but there is no support for an effective second half of the book, you still have no idea what men do or talk about amongst themselves, and it's just...there's *nothing there*, there's something in the beginning of the story, you know the core and if you'd just written the d*mn thing three or four months ago you could have spread that something there around, but now you just have a limping, dying, sad middle section. You can write the end, there's some essential scenes in the middle...but everything else is just going to be packing peanuts. What does one do in this situation? Do you write the good parts and somehow hack out the bad parts? Do you write the good parts and fill the other parts with meaningless stuff and nonsense?)

writing is hard but only because I wait to actually write until, well, to use my earlier metaphor, my fish are already rotted and skeletal

Sorry for the rant, I just want to be done with this story and be able to start the new one I have in mind before those fish start to rot too

Also for some reason I thought this might be helpful for looking at my cognition 
(ok no it was just an excuse to rant but it's over now)

edit: maybe this is a sign of not being an NP? Not enough ideas? Like...probably an NP would...reinvent the boring sections, rebrand that bit
(actually, that's a good idea)
does my rebranding idea mean I get to be an NP again
or do I have to come up with ideas for rebranding
what is the acceptable quota of ideas to come up with to get you into the NP camp

edit ii: maybe this is inferior Ne??


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> @Oswin INFP?  What makes you think that? @alittlebear is that Jessica Lange in your avatar? xD Also, you're back to ENFJ! Can I have so explanations?


Now I have no idea, it really was clicking but now (as of about two minutes ago) I'm starting to really doubt it. (see my most recent post)
This originally came about because I said something about liking to listen to two songs at once and how I concentrate best when I am flooding my mind with melodies, lyrics, emotions, etc. Long-ish story, then people started to say I was an NP) I also posted a video and people were agreeing...NFP. Which started to make sense to me and seemed to solve some puzzles and the Fi thing seemed all right and Te-inferior seemed better than Ne-inferior.

Except I am now incredibly perplexed, so don't take any of this as a definite assertion; I am very confused right now)

edit: what is going on with my profile picture?


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Exactly my thoughts. On everything. Although, I HAVE been saying , I think you're like me... ENFP - Fi . Have you read that description yet? Well, actually I dont know if that is what I am. It is what I always score in socionics. And for awhile I was going back and forth between INFP and ENFP, so it made sense. I think my Te is too high to be INFP and my Si is too high to be ENFP. Yet I know I cant be Fe dom. Both Fe dom and inferior Ti just don't match. I do however feel like ISFJ could fit, if I found out I do infact use Fe, and not Te... and if it explained my paralyzation that happens when I have too many options. What the heck am I?


Where do you see your Te and Si?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> Gray Romantic said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oswin INFP?  What makes you think that? @alittlebear is that Jessica Lange in your avatar? xD Also, you're back to ENFJ! Can I have so explanations?
> 
> 
> 
> Now I have no idea, it really was clicking but now (as of about two minutes ago) I'm starting to really doubt it. (see my most recent post)
> This originally came about because I said something about liking to listen to two songs at once and how I concentrate best when I am flooding my mind with melodies, lyrics, emotions, etc. Long-ish story, then people started to say I was an NP) I also posted a video and people were agreeing...NFP. Which started to make sense to me and seemed to solve some puzzles and the Fi thing seemed all right and Te-inferior seemed better than Ne-inferior.
> 
> Except I am now incredibly perplexed, so don't take any of this as a definite assertion; I am very confused right now)
> 
> edit: what is going on with my profile picture?
> [iurl="http://personalitycafe.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=338122&d=1433492729"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/iurl]
Click to expand...

lol! I still see the first pic.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my thoughts. On everything. Although, I HAVE been saying , I think you're like me... ENFP - Fi . Have you read that description yet? Well, actually I dont know if that is what I am. It is what I always score in socionics. And for awhile I was going back and forth between INFP and ENFP, so it made sense. I think my Te is too high to be INFP and my Si is too high to be ENFP. Yet I know I cant be Fe dom. Both Fe dom and inferior Ti just don't match. I do however feel like ISFJ could fit, if I found out I do infact use Fe, and not Te... and if it explained my paralyzation that happens when I have too many options. What the heck am I?
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see your Te and Si?
Click to expand...

My assertion, and directiveness. And then my nostalgia and caution.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> (Uggghhhh do you ever get halfway through writing a story/book thing (not storybook) and _then_ you realize you have written a meandering mess which nonetheless has some good points that you do not want to see go to waste, but there is no support for an effective second half of the book, you still have no idea what men do or talk about amongst themselves, and it's just...there's *nothing there*, there's something in the beginning of the story, you know the core and if you'd just written the d*mn thing three or four months ago you could have spread that something there around, but now you just have a limping, dying, sad middle section. You can write the end, there's some essential scenes in the middle...but everything else is just going to be packing peanuts. What does one do in this situation? Do you write the good parts and somehow hack out the bad parts? Do you write the good parts and fill the other parts with meaningless stuff and nonsense?)
> 
> writing is hard but only because I wait to actually write until, well, to use my earlier metaphor, my fish are already rotted and skeletal
> 
> Sorry for the rant, I just want to be done with this story and be able to start the new one I have in mind before those fish start to rot too
> 
> Also for some reason I thought this might be helpful for looking at my cognition
> (ok no it was just an excuse to rant but it's over now)
> 
> edit: maybe this is a sign of not being an NP? Not enough ideas? Like...probably an NP would...reinvent the boring sections, rebrand that bit
> (actually, that's a good idea)
> does my rebranding idea mean I get to be an NP again
> or do I have to come up with ideas for rebranding
> what is the acceptable quota of ideas to come up with to get you into the NP camp
> 
> edit ii: maybe this is inferior Ne??


I think you are just describing is the normal "this is all crap" stage of the writing process.  I really think you have more Ne than Si and are therefore NFP...most likely INFP (knowing "the core" suggests that the Ne is being steered by Ji).


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> (Uggghhhh do you ever get halfway through writing a story/book thing (not storybook) and _then_ you realize you have written a meandering mess which nonetheless has some good points that you do not want to see go to waste, but there is no support for an effective second half of the book, you still have no idea what men do or talk about amongst themselves, and it's just...there's *nothing there*, there's something in the beginning of the story, you know the core and if you'd just written the d*mn thing three or four months ago you could have spread that something there around, but now you just have a limping, dying, sad middle section. You can write the end, there's some essential scenes in the middle...but everything else is just going to be packing peanuts. What does one do in this situation? Do you write the good parts and somehow hack out the bad parts? Do you write the good parts and fill the other parts with meaningless stuff and nonsense?)
> 
> writing is hard but only because I wait to actually write until, well, to use my earlier metaphor, my fish are already rotted and skeletal
> 
> Sorry for the rant, I just want to be done with this story and be able to start the new one I have in mind before those fish start to rot too
> 
> Also for some reason I thought this might be helpful for looking at my cognition
> (ok no it was just an excuse to rant but it's over now)
> 
> edit: maybe this is a sign of not being an NP? Not enough ideas? Like...probably an NP would...reinvent the boring sections, rebrand that bit
> (actually, that's a good idea)
> does my rebranding idea mean I get to be an NP again
> or do I have to come up with ideas for rebranding
> what is the acceptable quota of ideas to come up with to get you into the NP camp
> 
> edit ii: maybe this is inferior Ne??
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are just describing is the normal "this is all crap" stage of the writing process.  I really think you have more Ne than Si and are therefore NFP...most likely INFP (knowing "the core" suggests that the Ne is being steered by Ji).
Click to expand...

hmmm, interesting point...


----------



## Adena

Oswin said:


> Now I have no idea, it really was clicking but now (as of about two minutes ago) I'm starting to really doubt it. (see my most recent post)
> This originally came about because I said something about liking to listen to two songs at once and how I concentrate best when I am flooding my mind with melodies, lyrics, emotions, etc. Long-ish story, then people started to say I was an NP) I also posted a video and people were agreeing...NFP. Which started to make sense to me and seemed to solve some puzzles and the Fi thing seemed all right and Te-inferior seemed better than Ne-inferior.
> 
> Except I am now incredibly perplexed, so don't take any of this as a definite assertion; I am very confused right now)
> 
> edit: what is going on with my profile picture?
> View attachment 338122


I see your profile picture as usual xD

I'm not sure you're an INFP (though I could definitely see it), but that wouldn't make you a non-INFP. That kist means you're having a writer's block.


----------



## owlet

SugarPlum said:


> ((( angelcat))) Hmmm... i have THOUGHT of xSFP. A lot actually. But I just cant get over the high Se. I have Se moments I think, but its "moments" of it. I am not a risk taker. I am super cautious actually. Bot because I know from experience how something happened in the past,but bec I just dont get a good vibe on things. Or I just "know" (whether I am right or not) how things will pan out. I can see all the ways something could end up happening, so I won't do something reckless. Although, I do say "f*** it" a lot, and just shut down all thoughts on any natter and go for it. I do act very in the moment, but given too much time to think things, my mind goes in very abstract territories. I literally work better at the moment. I do NOT plan. Lol I actually was just talking in depth with my mom about this last night. We were trying to make plans for my daughter's bday today, and I can't make a plan to save my life. Seriously. Its like, i have no idea what tomorrow brings, so how could I possibly commit to something. I live by the "play it by ear" phrase .
> 
> Did my "crisis" comment say anything to you?


Se isn't about risk taking, necessarily (curse this stereotype, it keeps popping up). It's about a preference for actually seeing something happen with your own eyes, or feeling it or doing it rather than hypothesising about it (which Ne is much more likely to do, which is why they usually look less active).

I.e. people are thinking about going on a trip:
Se: I don't know what it will be like because I'm not there yet. I need to wait and see.
Ne: It will probably be like this or this, but there's a chance of this if this happens.

Se users I know tend to get a bit frustrated when asked, for example, how they've done on a test, because they say they won't know until the grade comes back.



alittlebear said:


> Us being human, maybe?
> 
> For me... Hmm. I kind of have nothing going on in my head, but I don't. I mean. This is harder to explain. Like I have a slight "buzz" I guess (not literally, but... the thoughts). Little strands of thought that I'm not even quite aware of, but which again... are there subconsciously. And I also have my thoughts that... aren't thoughts, they're like... just... understanding, I guess that's one word, but also like... perception. I have thoughts, but they aren't words, they're... indescribable, but they're there? Like they're thoughts but not clear thoughts, they're... matter. Mass. Form. Fluid. It's hard to explain them.
> 
> But, like... I wonder if we don't all have this? I've always been sure that we all experience thoughts in that way, like we aren't always internally verbalizing our thoughts, but they're there nonetheless. (I'm describing it badly I think but I'm still pretty sure that what I'm describing about my thoughts, at least in this post, is a pretty human thing. We may not all be aware of it, but like I think this is how minds work.)
> 
> Oh, and I do disagree with you about not forming opinions. That saying "The quietest people have the loudest minds" is _very_ true for me. I have a lot of opinions. Not ones I can always say, but... Opinions. Even when I'm soaking something in, I'm thinking "How cruel!" or "Wow, that's kind of jerky" and of course "That's not right." With logic it's harder - I will have to think very hard before speaking most the time in class, before trying to say something intelligent - but if we're talking value judgments, I'm totally there. My professor asks "Was the Trojan war just?" Everyone laughs because without even thinking I give a heartfelt _"No." _ (Admittedly this is sort of because this is another thought I had carved already, but also because... How can you justify killing all those people just to get a girl back? You can't. Paris shouldn't have stolen Meneleas' wife, okay, but it wasn't worth the lives of all those men and the destruction of that city. It's a no-brainer, I think, prior thought or not.)


I do relate to the thing about how you think, to an extent. The understanding bit sounds like the inference of meaning which is generally done by people through language (but in this case isn't as clear-cut) and I definitely do that.

The way my mind works seems to be: not too much going on at the forefront, but some manic activity at the back (like when you're out in a quiet area and you hear the murmur of loud talking from far away). Or, ideas switching at an incredibly fast pace at the front of my mind (imagine a sort of swirling mass of images and snapshots in a whirlwind formation, except I can see them all perfectly clearly) and I can grab specific things if I need them.
I switch between this seemingly at random but, if I need the swirling mass of ideas for an essay or something, it's best for me to go away and either go for a walk or a shower, then the right idea will pull itself out the majority of the time (or I can try writing things out to see where it goes). 



Greyhart said:


> Guuyyyyyyyyyys I just woke up, started making my bed when this lil shit ran right over my pillow omg. One female of these species lay over 80 eggs and they probably live in the old furniture I sleep on now. I want back to my parents flat. How do I ever sleep now? HOW?


If those are like cockroaches, you can use boric acid sprinkled around the skirting boards/door way etc. to keep them out (or bayleaves? Apparently bugs hate them). I had an issue with cockroaches while I was in Japan and it was the only thing that made any difference - but you need to wear slippers if it's all across your floor, because the acid mildly irritates your skin.




Greyhart said:


> @_tine_ @_laurie17_ is it even possible for someone to like characters of Lord of the Flies? The way I see it the book's point is to showcase unlikeness of privileged boys. >_>


I don't know. My ESFJ friend at the time seemed to like them just fine...




Oswin said:


> (Uggghhhh do you ever get halfway through writing a story/book thing (not storybook) and _then_ you realize you have written a meandering mess which nonetheless has some good points that you do not want to see go to waste, but there is no support for an effective second half of the book, you still have no idea what men do or talk about amongst themselves, and it's just...there's *nothing there*, there's something in the beginning of the story, you know the core and if you'd just written the d*mn thing three or four months ago you could have spread that something there around, but now you just have a limping, dying, sad middle section. You can write the end, there's some essential scenes in the middle...but everything else is just going to be packing peanuts. What does one do in this situation? Do you write the good parts and somehow hack out the bad parts? Do you write the good parts and fill the other parts with meaningless stuff and nonsense?)
> 
> writing is hard but only because I wait to actually write until, well, to use my earlier metaphor, my fish are already rotted and skeletal
> 
> Sorry for the rant, I just want to be done with this story and be able to start the new one I have in mind before those fish start to rot too
> 
> Also for some reason I thought this might be helpful for looking at my cognition
> (ok no it was just an excuse to rant but it's over now)
> 
> edit: maybe this is a sign of not being an NP? Not enough ideas? Like...probably an NP would...reinvent the boring sections, rebrand that bit
> (actually, that's a good idea)
> does my rebranding idea mean I get to be an NP again
> or do I have to come up with ideas for rebranding
> what is the acceptable quota of ideas to come up with to get you into the NP camp
> 
> edit ii: maybe this is inferior Ne??


If you're at that point, you need to leave the writing alone for a bit. If you walk away, you'll get more ideas eventually - take a break and do some reading, or write something else. (I don't get this, because all my stories are too 'full' - I write shorter stories at about 70k words and have way too much stuff in there sometimes...)

Haha, I don't think Ne is a continuous stream of ideas. As I said above, I have periods of quiet mind time and, when writing a particularly annoying essay this last semester, I had to leave it for the rest of the day and go to bed, because I couldn't think of how to connect two ideas.


----------



## Dangerose

laurie17 said:


> If you're at that point, you need to leave the writing alone for a bit. If you walk away, you'll get more ideas eventually - take a break and do some reading, or write something else. (I don't get this, because all my stories are too 'full' - I write shorter stories at about 70k words and have way too much stuff in there sometimes...)
> 
> Haha, I don't think Ne is a continuous stream of ideas. As I said above, I have periods of quiet mind time and, when writing a particularly annoying essay this last semester, I had to leave it for the rest of the day and go to bed, because I couldn't think of how to connect two ideas.


Good advice; thank you, I needed it. And thank you @fairphantom and @Gray Romantic as well for reminding me that this is indeed a stage that happens with writing. It is 'that point')
Also, 70k is a shorter story?) 

I'm loving 'people describing how their minds work') So many similarities and differences) I think your description was very similar to mine but I never would have conceived of it that way)


----------



## Greyhart

> If those are like cockroaches, you can use boric acid sprinkled around the skirting boards/door way etc. to keep them out (or bayleaves? Apparently bugs hate them). I had an issue with cockroaches while I was in Japan and it was the only thing that made any difference - but you need to wear slippers if it's all across your floor, because the acid mildly irritates your skin.


I'm allergic to most pesticides. I'll try using Raid cockroach trap. You know, those that look like mini houses.

That being said I've already came to the terms with a possibility of a bug crawling into my nose or mouth while I sleep. In the first case I'll try to blow my nose hard enough to get it out before it gets into my brain and starts eating it. In second, bugs are great source of protein. It wont crawl into my ears because I sleep with earphones in, I'd love to warn neighbors about possible screaming in the night, tho.



> I don't know. My ESFJ friend at the time seemed to like them just fine...














> Haha, I don't think Ne is a continuous stream of ideas. As I said above, I have *periods of quiet mind time* and, when writing a particularly annoying essay this last semester, I had to leave it for the rest of the day and go to bed, because I couldn't think of how to connect two ideas.


Who is that never heard of him. :tongue:


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> I used to live on anti-allergic pills as a kid and teen but stopped taking after school. Funny thing I grew up with animals and had some allergic reactions to them but with years it disappeared. Inhalers are magic, tho. When I couldn't use them (because grandma thought they caused... addiction?!) it took me about 3 hours to kills of one asthma attack by taking a cocktail of medication that would leave with extremely low blood pressure, tachycardia and drowsiness (later one for the next 24 hours). And then I and like 1-2 hours of sleep and had to go to school. Maaaan, did my school years suck.


Woah, I think that alone would have caused you enough stress, without the depression and anxiety! 



> Fortunately I'm not allergic to _cigarettes_ but cigars you know, big sausages... Cuba? Those became fashionable among this country's edition of fuckboys. I basically avoid any cafes that might have those which means anything that isn't centered around fastfood or desserts.


Ooooh yeah cigars... did I misread something? whoops... too early in the morning >_>
I guess you're not missing out on good company, at least...



> P.S. you are legit onto something with "Fi with Fe ideals" and connection to instincts.


I know I am. ^____^

@Oswin I think the whole point of being "in the grip" is that it IS a negative state that happens under a lot of stress. But of course my Te has some good points as well. When I'm in the mood to organise stuff I feel really accomplished and useful, like a real adult. And as I get older it also helps to keep my Fi in check, via Si and Ne. It's just that it's not the strongest, and I'm usually reminded of that quite painfully when I'm around strong Te users. :-/

And like the others said, I think you're just suffering from writer's block! It happens! There is no specific "quota of ideas", I don't think... in all honesty most of my ideas don't really feel like ideas because I've already judged them as stupid or pointless or irrelevant.


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> That's something I've noticed with the less.... developed? mature? decent? Ni users I've come across. There's always this expectation that people will just know, and if they don't know, that they'll know to ask about it. It confuses me because sometimes my Ne takes me so far off track that I wouldn't even know what to ask about!


Exactly.



> @laurie17 @SugarPlum
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> phantom Phantoms - Animal Jam Wiki
> 
> 
> 
> :laughing:
> 
> @fair phantom I followed you guys on tumblr. (greyskiesoverhope) >_> I haven't updated it much recently and it's just reblogs but I dunno, it's just pretty stuff for me, so I don't mind about followers. Just didn't want to creepily start following you...
Click to expand...

Followed you back! And omg your picture is so cute. Your style is charming.



> I honestly think this is more related to Enneagram, and especially the instincts. If you're so/sx or so/sp of COURSE you're going to have a societal focus. If you're sp/sx or sp/so of COURSE you're going to be more insular. Fe and Fi is just the attitude of the feeling function - is it subjective (concerned with the inner), or objective (concerned with the outer)? It's entirely possible to be a social crusader based on your own values and your own self-image.


I think you are right!


----------



## owlet

Oswin said:


> Good advice; thank you, I needed it. And thank you @fairphantom and @_Gray Romantic_ as well for reminding me that this is indeed a stage that happens with writing. It is 'that point')
> Also, 70k is a shorter story?)
> 
> I'm loving 'people describing how their minds work') So many similarities and differences) I think your description was very similar to mine but I never would have conceived of it that way)


Haha, it's advice that's much easier to give than do, in my experience. I have a hard time leaving things alone when I'm struggling with them, because I have to make them work somehow no matter what :frustrating: It just means more editing later if I do though, because the rushed remedy is rarely the best.

70k is shorter when my friend was writing books at around 150-200k each (she wrote three that length). I think the average for adult fiction is about 80-90k, but I write YA or middle grade, so I don't have to worry about that :happy: Literary, romance and contemporary genres are also exempt from that rule.

I love hearing how minds work. I've been complaining for a while about how more money should go into neurology so we can actually work out what's going on in there (especially the whole sleep thing). I think it's probably because the entirety of the being is in their mind (although there was an article about how a heart transplant made someone get cravings for the food the previous heart's owner (?) used to eat a lot), and it's a bit like trying to go into the ocean vs space: even though it's so very much there and a part of biology, we know almost nothing about it. whereas we know so much about other things that are seemingly less accessible (I put 'know' in there, but science never really knows anything - it just goes with what seems most likely). 



Greyhart said:


> I'm allergic to most pesticides. I'll try using Raid cockroach trap. You know, those that look like mini houses.
> 
> That being said I've already came to the terms with a possibility of a bug crawling into my nose or mouth while I sleep. In the first case I'll try to blow my nose hard enough to get it out before it gets into my brain and starts eating it. In second, bugs are great source of protein. It wont crawl into my ears because I sleep with earphones in, I'd love to warn neighbors about possible screaming in the night, tho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who is that never heard of him. :tongue:


Ahh, I heard from one of my friends in Japan that when he used one of those, it attracted more, because of the food (it killed them, so there were just a load of cockroach corpses littered around). To be honest, if you've only got one of those, it probably would be fine, though. (Please try the bayleaves, I really want to know if they work - and good luck!)
When I was reading articles on how to get rid of cockroaches, I actually found out that if they're hungry, they might bite you, which was not helpful at all, because then I had to wrap myself in my sheets all night in 30+ degree heat and 90% humidity.
Is your bug a millipede or a centipede by the way?

Yeah, I felt that way when she told me... They're all just really unpleasant to each other, and they aren't interesting enough to make up for their bad personalities like some unlikeable characters.

I think my quiet mind (which is still murmuring away) only really happens if I haven't drunk enough water or my blood sugar's getting low (I'm hypoglycemic and forgetful, so that's fairly often).

Also, why is it suddenly boiling today?


----------



## Immolate

@Greyhart thank you for actually typing China the Octopus Mieville, you are beautiful, but he is no NFP and his books do not sound Te.


I'll catch up with everyone... soon.


----------



## Barakiel

@shinynotshiny, you're ESTJ now? Talk about missing developments. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> @shinynotshiny, you're ESTJ now? Talk about missing developments. :wink:




Yes. It is the beard. All Te-doms strive for that presence.

What the hell where is my beard I see vanilla Spock?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Yes. It is the beard. All Te-doms strive for that presence.
> 
> What the hell where is my beard I see vanilla Spock?


What, so you've suddenly become all dark and gritty? Where's my INTJ buddy, I miss him. :laughing:

Growing the Beard - TV Tropes


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> Who is it though? It looks lie Hermoine or Emma Watson... or whatever her name is lol


Yup.



Oswin said:


> (Uggghhhh do you ever get halfway through writing a story/book thing (not storybook) and _then_ you realize you have written a meandering mess which nonetheless has some good points that you do not want to see go to waste, but there is no support for an effective second half of the book, you still have no idea what men do or talk about amongst themselves, and it's just...there's *nothing there*, there's something in the beginning of the story, you know the core and if you'd just written the d*mn thing three or four months ago you could have spread that something there around, but now you just have a limping, dying, sad middle section. You can write the end, there's some essential scenes in the middle...but everything else is just going to be packing peanuts. What does one do in this situation? Do you write the good parts and somehow hack out the bad parts? Do you write the good parts and fill the other parts with meaningless stuff and nonsense?)


(Not sure if you did this or I just misread it.)

Writing a book in chunks sounds like Ne/Si. I would never do that. I go from beginning to end. Skipping ahead to the "good parts" is cheating. I have to make all of it a good part.

But ... if you write a meandering mess, you fix it. You edit out the boring middle section or figure out how to make it work. With low Te, that might be a challenge. For me, it's taxing but ... I do it. Then again, I work as an editor for a living. 



shinynotshiny said:


> P.S. @angelcat ESFJ?


Nooo.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> What, so you've suddenly become all dark and gritty? Where's my INTJ buddy, I miss him. :laughing:
> 
> Growing the Beard - TV Tropes


There. I have my beard again.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> There. I have my beard again.


There we are, much better. :laughing: You can join Will Riker in the beard corner. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> There we are, much better. :laughing: You can join Will Riker in the beard corner. :wink:


You insult me. I am better than that pompous Will Riker.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Ahh, I heard from one of my friends in Japan that when he used one of those, it attracted more, because of the food (it killed them, so there were just a load of cockroach corpses littered around). To be honest, if you've only got one of those, it probably would be fine, though. (Please try the bayleaves, I really want to know if they work - and good luck!)
> When I was reading articles on how to get rid of cockroaches, I actually found out that if they're hungry, they might bite you, which was not helpful at all, because then I had to wrap myself in my sheets all night in 30+ degree heat and 90% humidity.
> Is your bug a millipede or a centipede by the way?


Had to google but bay leaves are "lavr" and yes, back when I was a kid we had a mad cockroach infestation and tried those (we tried everything tbh). Didn't work. In the end we bought some dough made by some rogue chemist under the table. That thing helped. No idea what it was, though.



> Yeah, I felt that way when she told me... They're all just really unpleasant to each other, and they aren't interesting enough to make up for their bad personalities like some unlikeable characters.
> 
> I think my quiet mind (which is still murmuring away) only really happens if I haven't drunk enough water or my blood sugar's getting low (I'm hypoglycemic and forgetful, so that's fairly often).
> 
> Also, why is it suddenly boiling today?


My mind slows down when I am a). very drunk b). very sleepy. Which is why I dislike being both.



shinynotshiny said:


> @Greyhart thank you for actually typing China the Octopus Mieville, you are beautiful, but he is no NFP and his books do not sound Te.
> 
> 
> I'll catch up with everyone... soon.


STJ maybe? The "take genre and twist it around" seems like Ne approach to me. Though, then there's Narnia guy...


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> You insult me. I am better than that pompous Will Riker.


Sure, sure, keep building up that pedestal, please. :tongue:


----------



## Greyhart

P.S. my bug thing is likely this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutigera_coleoptrata I'm not certain because I squished it with my pillow before I could look at it and then it was too squished to identify it.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> P.S. my bug thing is likely this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutigera_coleoptrata I'm not certain because I squished it with my pillow before I could look at it and then it was too squished to identify it.


*shivers* Centipedes freak me out, ever since watching/reading Tokyo Ghoul. :frustrating: Trust me, you know the scene I mean if you've heard of the series.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> STJ maybe? The "take genre and twist it around" seems like Ne approach to me. Though, then there's Narnia guy...


He is far too weird and his books are far too varied for lower Ne. In the second video, he says something about liking holes in logic (not flaws/problems, in his words) because they make him think, and he doesn't like step-by-step storytelling, so that kills Te.

@Barakiel

Look at that despicable smile.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> He is far too weird and his books are far too varied for lower Ne. In the second video, he says something about liking holes in logic (not flaws/problems, in his words) because they make him think, and he doesn't like step-by-step storytelling, so that kills Te.


Hmm... Does he seem like NTP? He doesn't seem NTP to me. That leaves NFJ? Doesn't seem SFP or SFJ in any way. If you think not Te that means NTP or NFJ.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> @Barakiel
> 
> Look at that despicable smile.


Well, that will haunt my nightmares. Still better than this guy, though.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Hmm... Does he seem like NTP? He doesn't seem NTP to me. That leaves NFJ? Doesn't seem SFP or SFJ in any way. If you think not Te that means NTP or NFJ.


I don't see NFJ either. I found this just now???


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Se isn't about risk taking, necessarily (curse this stereotype, it keeps popping up). It's about a preference for actually seeing something happen with your own eyes, or feeling it or doing it rather than hypothesising about it (which Ne is much more likely to do, which is why they usually look less active).
> 
> I.e. people are thinking about going on a trip:
> Se: I don't know what it will be like because I'm not there yet. I need to wait and see.
> Ne: It will probably be like this or this, but there's a chance of this if this happens.
> 
> Se users I know tend to get a bit frustrated when asked, for example, how they've done on a test, because they say they won't know until the grade comes back.
> 
> 
> I do relate to the thing about how you think, to an extent. The understanding bit sounds like the inference of meaning which is generally done by people through language (but in this case isn't as clear-cut) and I definitely do that.
> 
> The way my mind works seems to be: not too much going on at the forefront, but some manic activity at the back (like when you're out in a quiet area and you hear the murmur of loud talking from far away). Or, ideas switching at an incredibly fast pace at the front of my mind (imagine a sort of swirling mass of images and snapshots in a whirlwind formation, except I can see them all perfectly clearly) and I can grab specific things if I need them.
> I switch between this seemingly at random but, if I need the swirling mass of ideas for an essay or something, it's best for me to go away and either go for a walk or a shower, then the right idea will pull itself out the majority of the time (or I can try writing things out to see where it goes).


I'm not sure if it's even possible to type me now but I don't relate to the Se the way you wrote it. I can see a lot of that in my dad though. Like he loves blowing up balloons and seeing what's down a neighborhood or exploring forests, but I already know the ballon is going to blow up, the neighborhood is going to be a bunch of houses, and in the forest there are going to be a lot of shrubs, shadows, and trees. I always wonder how I do on tests and it's actually been an annoying habit of asking other people for no particular reason which I should probably stop. 

Plus he knew what he wanted to be since he was a little child and always dedicated himself to that one goal...

But at the same time, I think my mind is too quiet for Ne? I don't have enough knowledge about how others think but apparently I learn similarly to alittlebear. 

I saw that Greyhart thinks I'm still SP XP. Points for consistency 

This is making me feel like I do nothing with my brain wow.


----------



## fair phantom

@Greyhart @shinynotshiny

Based on the videos I think China Mieville is an NP. Both his subject matter and his manner of speaking suggest Ne to me. NFJs I know would stop and think more before answering and maybe stop again mid sentence to clarify their thoughts again. He seems able to think out loud as an Ne would..just with an enviable clarity that I hope one day to obtain. I'm not sure that "liking holes in logic" rules out Te-using NFPs. At least, I can relate to it. It piques my interest. 

I haven't read his books and I don't feel I have enough to go on to decide definitively, but some sort of NP is what I think.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gray Romantic said:


> @Oswin INFP?  What makes you think that? @alittlebear is that Jessica Lange in your avatar? xD Also, you're back to ENFJ! Can I have so explanations?


I don't know who Jessica Lange is  Or I think I might, but... Nope, not her. (Unless she's the actress, I wouldn't know, but...?) Ots the female lead from the movie Rob Roy ^^

And yes well I did switch and it was a series of talks that led to that, but ultimately I was banished from being an SFJ by @angelcat and, being timid, I did not think to disobey


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I don't know who Jessica Lange is  Or I think I might, but... Nope, not her. (Unless she's the actress, I wouldn't know, but...?) Ots the female lead from the movie Rob Roy ^^
> 
> And yes well I did switch and it was a series of talks that led to that, but ultimately I was banished from being an SFJ by @angelcat and, being timid, I did not think to disobey


imdb says that is Jessica Lange


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> And yes well I did switch and it was a series of talks that led to that, but ultimately I was banished from being an SFJ by @angelcat and, being timid, I did not think to disobey


Oh, good. People are finally listening to me.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Oh, good. People are finally listening to me.


Wait, what do you mean finally? :dry: You _are_ pretty much the highest authority on this stuff that I know. :laughing:

On topic, I have a sneaking suspicion that @alittlebear has some Ne, mainly cause she writes *so bloody much*, but hey, what do I know. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't see NFJ either. I found this just now???





fair phantom said:


> @Greyhart @shinynotshiny
> 
> Based on the videos I think China Mieville is an NP. Both his subject matter and his manner of speaking suggest Ne to me. NFJs I know would stop and think more before answering and maybe stop again mid sentence to clarify their thoughts again. He seems able to think out loud as an Ne would..just with an enviable clarity that I hope one day to obtain. I'm not sure that "liking holes in logic" rules out Te-using NFPs. At least, I can relate to it. It piques my interest.
> 
> I haven't read his books and I don't feel I have enough to go on to decide definitively, but some sort of NP is what I think.


Is he really NTP?! He seems... reserved somehow. Not picking Ne-Fe? INTP could work maybe.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Wait, what do you mean finally? :dry: You _are_ pretty much the highest authority on this stuff that I know. :laughing:
> 
> On topic, I have a sneaking suspicion that @alittlebear has some Ne, mainly cause she writes so bloody much, but hey, what do I know. :wink:


I don't know, I don't think that Ne is correct just because someone writes so much...?

I write a lot in essays, and my professors have scolded me for it, but for me it's because the thought in my head is so... not big but... deep, I guess. It's not a surface idea I can explain with a few pages if it's a good idea. I'm going to the writing center to teach me how to condense, but at least in school writing it's not that I have too many thoughts to write about, but that my one idea is hard to explain. I think that it's the same here, to some extent. I need to learn how to say what I mean more succinctly, but I don't think that necessarily means I'm Ne. (Superficially it could seem as such, but...)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> imdb says that is Jessica Lange


 @Gray Romantic it is Jessica Lange oops


----------



## fair phantom

@Barakiel @alittlebear

In my experience, NFJs can be just as verbose as Ne-users. (NTJs seem to be more concise, but I expect they can also really get going on a topic).


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I don't know, I don't think that Ne is correct just because someone writes so much...?
> 
> I write a lot in essays, and my professors have scolded me for it, but for me it's because the thought in my head is so... not big but... deep, I guess. It's not a surface idea I can explain with a few pages if it's a good idea. I'm going to the writing center to teach me how to condense, but at least in school writing it's not that I have too many thoughts to write about, but that my one idea is hard to explain. I think that it's the same here, to some extent. I need to learn how to say what I mean more succinctly, but I don't think that necessarily means I'm Ne. (Superficially it could seem as such, but...)


Fair enough, it just sticks out in my mind because heavy Ne users like @Greyhart and @fair phantom write pages among pages, and... I just can't. It's just a sneaking suspicion as for now, and nothing concrete, though.

Eh, even so, I think your Fe is still your dominant, it's such a defining point of you that it's hard to think otherwise.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> @_Greyhart_ @_shinynotshiny_
> 
> Based on the videos I think China Mieville is an NP. Both his subject matter and his manner of speaking suggest Ne to me. NFJs I know would stop and think more before answering and maybe stop again mid sentence to clarify their thoughts again. He seems able to think out loud as an Ne would..just with an enviable clarity that I hope one day to obtain. I'm not sure that "liking holes in logic" rules out Te-using NFPs. At least, I can relate to it. It piques my interest.
> 
> I haven't read his books and I don't feel I have enough to go on to decide definitively, but some sort of NP is what I think.


I've been thinking INTP because although his books are weird Ne explosions, he's all about the ideas behind his books more so than the strangeness. I also say no to Te because he has no problem leaving his stories open-ended, vague, up to the reader, and so on. I would say one of his weaknesses is his inability or unwillingness to write a strong ending. They are usually anticlimactic and more, "Ohh, I see." His way of speaking also stood out to me because I can't string together my thoughts so quickly when speaking


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Fair enough, it just sticks out in my mind because heavy Ne users like @Greyhart and @fair phantom write pages among pages, and... I just can't. It's just a sneaking suspicion as for now, and nothing concrete, though.
> 
> Eh, even so, I think your Fe is still your dominant, it's such a defining point of you that it's hard to think otherwise.


I know Fe users aren't your favorite people, but... I really ask you to see beyond that. I really just want people to be happy... I'm not a backstabbing terrible person like the Fe dominance that's too often portrayed in media. I use social niceties and change myself to make others comfortable, but... Really, no ulterior motive. 

(Sorry. I just noticed here and on the HP topic that you seem annoyed with me and my Fe, but... can't really soften my Fe because it is me, but I can just kind of say that even though it might seem like I am from afar, I'm really not those bad guys you see on TV. You'll just have to take my word for it though )


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been thinking INTP because although his books are weird Ne explosions, he's all about the ideas behind his books more so than the strangeness. I also say no to Te because he has no problem leaving his stories open-ended, vague, up to the reader, and so on. I would say one of his weaknesses is his inability or unwillingness to write a strong ending. They are usually anticlimactic and more, "Ohh, I see." His way of speaking also stood out to me because I can't string together my thoughts so quickly when speaking


I love vague endings and open-ended stories. Sometimes it best suits what one is trying to achieve. :tongue:


----------



## Greyhart

Nah, two definite Ni doms I know on this forum write fraking _a lot_.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Nah, two definite Ni doms I know on this forum write fraking _a lot_.


I'm thinking of the one person I know who screams Ni and _yes_.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been thinking INTP because although his books are weird Ne explosions, he's all about the ideas behind his books more so than the strangeness. I also say no to Te because he has no problem leaving his stories open-ended, vague, up to the reader, and so on. I would say one of his weaknesses is his inability or unwillingness to write a strong ending. They are usually anticlimactic and more, "Ohh, I see." His way of speaking also stood out to me because I can't string together my thoughts so quickly when speaking


I think NPs are Ok with open-ends regardless of Te. It's low order in NFPs anyway. I don't think he is ENTP. But could see INTP, I guess. He has a sense of... inner reservation that I don't seem to pick from Ne-Fe users.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel @alittlebear
> 
> In my experience, NFJs can be just as verbose as Ne-users. (NTJs seem to be more concise, but I expect they can also really get going on a topic).


Ok. I'm just going off my experience with myself, and my talks with @Greyhart when I thought I had Ne. If a more experienced mind wants to say otherwise, by all means. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> I love vague endings and open-ended stories. Sometimes it best suits what one is trying to achieve. :tongue:


It's fine sometimes, and I do enjoy his books 

He's more about his ideas and concepts and mish-mashing them together in an interesting way. Endings read like, "Okay, I have to end this book now. Let me explain a bit of what I've been telling you."


----------



## Greyhart

How to stop me from eating candy uncontrollably - remove candy from the room. Object permanence? What is that?


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I know Fe users aren't your favorite people, but... I really ask you to see beyond that. I really just want people to be happy... I'm not a backstabbing terrible person like the Fe dominance that's too often portrayed in media. I use social niceties and change myself to make others comfortable, but... Really, no ulterior motive.
> 
> (Sorry. I just noticed here and on the HP topic that you seem annoyed with me and my Fe, but... can't really soften my Fe because it is me, but I can just kind of say that even though it might seem like I am from afar, I'm really not those bad guys you see on TV. You'll just have to take my word for it though )


Haha, actually, it's because of the complete opposite reason, you try to make everyone else happy that you ignore yourself, even though I do admittedly do the same, it stings because I value individuality beyond group happiness, and you squander that, in my eyes. If you're familiar with the media of Fate/Stay Night, Shirou Emiya's ideal is the personification of Fe, imo, he just wants everyone to be happy, even if he's slowly killing himself doing it. It's why I liked the story arc where he gives up on that to be the best, even though the one before that deconstructs that ideal to the core. Ironically, the recent anime made him a lot more relateable, but I'm sure many would disagree, and this isn't the place for that. 

Anyway, that's most of my reasons for why I dislike heavy Fe users; in excess, I can't help but feel they're killing themselves slowly by caring too much. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Haha, actually, it's because of the complete opposite reason, you try to make everyone else happy that you ignore yourself, even though I do admittedly do the same, it stings because I value individuality beyond group happiness, and you squander that, in my eyes. If you're familiar with the media of Fate/Stay Night, Shirou Emiya's ideal is the personification of Fe, imo, he just wants everyone to be happy, even if he's slowly killing himself doing it. It's why I liked the story arc where he gives up on that to be the best, even though the one before that deconstructs that ideal to the core. Ironically, the recent anime made him a lot more relateable, but I'm sure many would disagree, and this isn't the place for that.
> 
> *Anyway, that's most of my reasons for why I dislike heavy Fe users; in excess, I can't help but feel they're killing themselves slowly by caring too much.* :wink:


I agree. _I AGREE. _

I don't dislike the person, but I dislike their degree of self-sacrifice. One of my closest friends has CP and will sometimes forgo using his wheelchair if he doesn't have to walk long distances. Even so, it's very exhausting for him, but that doesn't stop him from opening doors for people and holding that door for the entire fucking theater until I pull him away, or letting everyone out of the elevator before he dares walk out himself, or filling out questionnaires when someone is handing them out even though the act of writing is a bit difficult for him. When he does use his wheelchair, I like helping him out from time to time if he's okay with it because I like to threaten to run over people. A lot of the time, they simply do not care to move out of the way or make space for him, and yet he's all politeness. No. Run them over, friend, it's okay. I tell him he needs a tiny bit of selfishness and that it won't make him a bad person. He hates the idea of being a bad person and will not feel okay until he has fixed whatever wrong he perceives he has committed.

That's not even the half of it.

He is too nice for this world.


----------



## Greyhart

Yeah, this is why I worried (still worry tbh) about moving out and leaving my mother unsupervised by me. She's too kind, too trusting, too unparanoid and giving. People often take advantage of her and dad doesn't have proper persuasion skills to talk her into being more cautious in such situations.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Vaguely reminded of the too-good people I know. Although previously I'd pegged them Fi... To some extent. 
@laurie17 I think it was you who said your Fi values are Fe ones? Defending other people, being kind, something like that? I was a little surprised because those are classic Fi things to me. Fe is typically portrayed as the one excluding people and being snarky, while Fi I think is often portrayed as the kind, gentle, loving function. _I_ think F is F, F is at its best kind and loving because to some extent that _is_ its purpose, but stereotypes disagree :/


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Wait, what do you mean finally? :dry: You _are_ pretty much the highest authority on this stuff that I know. :laughing:
> 
> On topic, I have a sneaking suspicion that @alittlebear has some Ne, mainly cause she writes *so bloody much*, but hey, what do I know. :wink:


Aww, I'm flattered. No pressure though, right?

Ha, ha. If only. The personal e-mails I get from NJs are LONG. Like, 2,000 words long. Like, "this is my entire emo thought process right now" long. And I thought that *I* was verbose! 

Actually, an ISFJ was staying with me recently, and caught me sneaking a look at my e-mail from said INTJ. She said, "HOLY MERLIN, HE WROTE ALL OF THAT?"

"Yup."

"Does he do it often?"

"Yup. Sometimes it's even longer."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also I think this is me being a passive plate more than anything, but when I'm in my wheelchair I really try not to inconvenience anyone. It's hard though, because when you're in a wheelchair suddenly all the store clerks want to help you. "Are you okay? Finding everything alright?" [two minutes kater] "Are you _sure_ there's not anything I can help you with?" I mean some people kind of do disregard you because you're quite literally (really this time) lower than them, but for most people they just give you a kinder regard... It makes me feel weird though, because I've always hated being treated "specially," for good or bad. 

And what you're saying about your mother reminds me of me a little too, @Greyhart. My 11th grade _science teacher_ told me that he would personally take me to the car dealership to buy my first car because he knew I was too much of a pushover to fight for the deals I deserve. I can't even be a salesperson (even for the bookstore!) because I hate to inconvenience people. 

I think this is unhealthy Fe, though. Like I should be able to be a salesperson. Fe users make _great_ salespeople. I need to unlock that ability.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Aww, I'm flattered. No pressure though, right?
> 
> Ha, ha. If only. The personal e-mails I get from NJs are LONG. Like, 2,000 words long. Like, "this is my entire emo thought process right now" long. And I thought that *I* was verbose!
> 
> Actually, an ISFJ was staying with me recently, and caught me sneaking a look at my e-mail from said INTJ. She said, "HOLY MERLIN, HE WROTE ALL OF THAT?"
> 
> "Yup."
> 
> "Does he do it often?"
> 
> "Yup. Sometimes it's even longer."


Like I said last night, I am in type limbo, but don't promise to be email buddies if you don't like reading page after page after page.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I agree. _I AGREE. _
> 
> I don't dislike the person, but I dislike their degree of self-sacrifice. One of my closest friends has CP and will sometimes forgo using his wheelchair if he doesn't have to walk long distances. Even so, it's very exhausting for him, but that doesn't stop him from opening doors for people and holding that door for the entire fucking theater until I pull him away, or letting everyone out of the elevator before he dares walk out himself, or filling out questionnaires when someone is handing them out even though the act of writing is a bit difficult for him. When he does use his wheelchair, I like helping him out from time to time if he's okay with it because I like to threaten to run over people. A lot of the time, they simply do not care to move out of the way or make space for him, and yet he's all politeness. No. Run them over, friend, it's okay. I tell him he needs a tiny bit of selfishness and that it won't make him a bad person. He hates the idea of being a bad person and will not feel okay until he has fixed whatever wrong he perceives he has committed.
> 
> That's not even the half of it.
> 
> He is too nice for this world.


Wow, I'd be impressed with his perseverance if I wouldn't be snarking at his blind devotion to doing good deeds. :tongue: Though, I do some of the same things, but mainly for the sensation of going through intense pain and still sticking with it, and also because, well, it's something to do.  He does seem rather nice, though, give him the regards of a person he doesn't and probably will never know. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Also I think this is me being a passive plate more than anything, but when I'm in my wheelchair I really try not to inconvenience anyone. It's hard though, because when you're in a wheelchair suddenly all the store clerks want to help you. "Are you okay? Finding everything alright?" [two minutes kater] "Are you _sure_ there's not anything I can help you with?" I mean some people kind of do disregard you because you're quite literally (really this time) lower than them, but for most people they just give you a kinder regard... It makes me feel weird though, because I've always hated being treated "specially," for good or bad.
> 
> And what you're saying about your mother reminds me of me a little too, @_Greyhart_. My 11th grade _science teacher_ told me that he would personally take me to the car dealership to buy my first car because he knew I was too much of a pushover to fight for the deals I deserve. I can't even be a salesperson (even for the bookstore!) because I hate to inconvenience people.
> 
> I think this is unhealthy Fe, though. Like I should be able to be a salesperson. Fe users make _great_ salespeople. I need to unlock that ability.


My city must be exceptionally rude...


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Aww, I'm flattered. No pressure though, right?
> 
> Ha, ha. If only. The personal e-mails I get from NJs are LONG. Like, 2,000 words long. Like, "this is my entire emo thought process right now" long. And I thought that *I* was verbose!
> 
> Actually, an ISFJ was staying with me recently, and caught me sneaking a look at my e-mail from said INTJ. She said, "HOLY MERLIN, HE WROTE ALL OF THAT?"
> 
> "Yup."
> 
> "Does he do it often?"
> 
> "Yup. Sometimes it's even longer."


Nah, no pressure at all, would hate to deal with the aftermath your pedestal falling down would cause. :laughing:

Oh jesus, well, I know when I'm wrong, and clearly I am here. :wink: Though, it's funny, I would have thought Te users would be more succinct, but I guess their Ni overreaches that. Is that the same INTJ you mentioned in my old thread a few months back, I wonder? :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Wow, I'd be impressed with his perseverance if I wouldn't be snarking at his blind devotion to doing good deeds. :tongue: Though, I do some of the same things, though mainly for the sensation of going through intense pain and still sticking with it, and also because, well, it's something to do.  He does seem rather nice, though, give him the regards of a person he doesn't and probably will never know. :laughing:


He's one of the reasons I'm more personable these days :laughing: 



Also, don't hurt yourself like that :c


----------



## Greyhart

I'm too lazy to put my thought trains on proverbial paper. I actually trim what I write a lot. Well, and there's also issue of finding a right English word to express my thoughts.  Takes so much time, it's easier to cut it down to essentials.



alittlebear said:


> Also I think this is me being a passive plate more than anything, but when I'm in my wheelchair I really try not to inconvenience anyone. It's hard though, because when you're in a wheelchair suddenly all the store clerks want to help you. "Are you okay? Finding everything alright?" [two minutes kater] "Are you _sure_ there's not anything I can help you with?" I mean some people kind of do disregard you because you're quite literally (really this time) lower than them, but for most people they just give you a kinder regard... It makes me feel weird though, because I've always hated being treated "specially," for good or bad.
> 
> And what you're saying about your mother reminds me of me a little too, @Greyhart. My 11th grade _science teacher_ told me that he would personally take me to the car dealership to buy my first car because he knew I was too much of a pushover to fight for the deals I deserve. I can't even be a salesperson (even for the bookstore!) because I hate to inconvenience people.
> 
> I think this is unhealthy Fe, though. Like I should be able to be a salesperson. Fe users make _great_ salespeople. I need to unlock that ability.


She's OK with fighting off sales people but can't say "No" if asked for help and will do it even if it greatly inconveniences her or even hurts her (fairly poor) health.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> He's one of the reasons I'm more personable these days :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, don't hurt yourself like that :c


An ESTJ? Personable? *BLASPHEMY!* (sarcasm, people, I'm not that stereotypical. :dry: )

Awwww, but there's a certain rush to feeling pain and driving through it, it's a sense of... fulfillment? :laughing: Closest I'll ever get to it, at any rate.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> My city must be exceptionally rude...


One lady was really nice to my family and didn't even regard me. You could see it on her face like "oh, wheelchair," and she smiled thinly then resumed conversation with my parents and sister. Could tell she was fake. If she hadn't done that she might have pulled off my good side, but... nah. 

Another girl saw me for the first time in a wheelchair and went "Why is there a _wheelchair_?" Um, more like, _why is there someone sitting in a wheelchair?_ I think she was just saying the wrong words, but it was like... Hey, I'm here. I'm the person in the wheelchair. 

And when I wasn't in the wheelchair, when I just couldn't walk, people could be kind of rude. I was walking with a group of kids back from an event and I like... could not walk. I could walk, I could limp, but when I get like that we need to slow down. And I think they saw me, but they just... kept going. Super fast. I know I wasn't best friends with everyone in the group, they didn't know me that well, but if I see someone struggling I adjust for them. I guess it worked out because I made it back to the dorm without falling down, but I still found it kind of rude, and walking that distance took a lot out of me. 

And I'm also concerned about how it's going to be when school starts back up again. I've never been a wheelchair bound person, and I'm not sure how people will react to / regard me. 

But... These events are isolated. Generally my experiences have been good. My city has a lot of problems, but we are very kind and friendly people. That's what the outsiders say, at least.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> One lady was really nice to my family and didn't even regard me. You could see it on her face like "oh, wheelchair," and she smiled thinly then resumed conversation with my parents and sister. Could tell she was fake. If she hadn't done that she might have pulled off my good side, but... nah.
> 
> Another girl saw me for the first time in a wheelchair and went "Why is there a _wheelchair_?" Um, more like, _why is there someone sitting in a wheelchair?_ I think she was just saying the wrong words, but it was like... Hey, I'm here. I'm the person in the wheelchair.
> 
> And when I wasn't in the wheelchair, when I just couldn't walk, people could be kind of rude. I was walking with a group of kids back from an event and I like... could not walk. I could walk, I could limp, but when I get like that we need to slow down. And I think they saw me, but they just... kept going. Super fast. I know I wasn't best friends with everyone in the group, they didn't know me that well, but if I see someone struggling I adjust for them. I guess it worked out because I made it back to the dorm without falling down, but I still found it kind of rude, and walking that distance took a lot out of me.
> 
> And I'm also concerned about how it's going to be when school starts back up again. I've never been a wheelchair bound person, and I'm not sure how people will react to / regard me.
> 
> But... These events are isolated. Generally my experiences have been good. My city has a lot of problems, but we are very kind and friendly people. That's what the outsiders say, at least.


Out of curiosity, I ran a search for the rudest cities in the U.S. and mine is in the top five lol


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Out of curiosity, I ran a search for the rudest cities in the U.S. and mine is in the top five lol


Mine usually lands on "Murder Capital" lists, but... I imagine rudeness is just as bad in its own way. (I mean, I haven't been murdered yet, but you've probably experienced rudeness from your city.) 

About to look up mine. Just a sec.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Nah, no pressure at all, would hate to deal with the aftermath your pedestal falling down would cause. :laughing:


When it falls, it will crush you. So don't stand too close.



> Is that the same INTJ you mentioned in my old thread a few months back, I wonder? :happy:


Probably, yeah. I know two, but he's the one who talks about his mental process more. With the other one, we discuss Hannibal, and The Blacklist, and MBTI types. Heh.

@alittlebear: I didn't realize you were in a wheelchair sometimes. I'm sorry to hear you have problems walking. I hope you're okay / getting better (?).

I ain't got no city, so my city ain't rude. It's 70 miles to the nearest big city.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat Thank you for your kind regards, but I'm really fine. (Honestly not sure if I say that because I don't realize how serious being in a wheelchair is or not, but... To me at least, right now, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.) It can get annoying, but generally it's just a thing. Things should be getting better soon we think ^^


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> When it falls, it will crush you. So don't stand too close.


At least I'll get a good view before I die, kind of like crucifixion. :laughing: (Monty Python is brilliant. :wink: )



angelcat said:


> Probably, yeah. I know two, but he's the one who talks about his mental process more. With the other one, we discuss Hannibal, and The Blacklist, and MBTI types. Heh.
> 
> @alittlebear: I didn't realize you were in a wheelchair sometimes. I'm sorry to hear you have problems walking. I hope you're okay / getting better (?).
> 
> I ain't got no city, so my city ain't rude. It's 70 miles to the nearest big city.


Ah yes, I was wondering because he seemed similar to what you said about him way back then. :tongue: Hannibal, oh man, I've only watched the first episode, but it seems like a total Ni fiesta, symbolism upon symbolism. :laughing: I only hope it ends better than another example of that, Evangelion. :wink:

I just searched up examples of the rudest cities, and what do ya know, Australia isn't on there. Y'know, I feel kind of excluded. Though it's only natural by now, considering we're the unknowns down here. :kitteh:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> One lady was really nice to my family and didn't even regard me. You could see it on her face like "oh, wheelchair," and she smiled thinly then resumed conversation with my parents and sister. Could tell she was fake. If she hadn't done that she might have pulled off my good side, but... nah.
> 
> Another girl saw me for the first time in a wheelchair and went *"Why is there a wheelchair?"* Um, more like, _why is there someone sitting in a wheelchair?_ I think she was just saying the wrong words, but it was like... Hey, I'm here. I'm the person in the wheelchair.
> 
> And when I wasn't in the wheelchair, when I just couldn't walk, people could be kind of rude. I was walking with a group of kids back from an event and I like... could not walk. I could walk, I could limp, but when I get like that we need to slow down. And I think they saw me, but they just... kept going. Super fast. I know I wasn't best friends with everyone in the group, they didn't know me that well, but if I see someone struggling I adjust for them. I guess it worked out because I made it back to the dorm without falling down, but I still found it kind of rude, and walking that distance took a lot out of me.
> 
> And I'm also concerned about how it's going to be when school starts back up again. I've never been a wheelchair bound person, and I'm not sure how people will react to / regard me.
> 
> But... These events are isolated. Generally my experiences have been good. My city has a lot of problems, but we are very kind and friendly people. That's what the outsiders say, at least.


The level of dumb (both socially and logically) in that question, wow. I wish I was there to engage.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Vaguely reminded of the too-good people I know. Although previously I'd pegged them Fi... To some extent.
> @_laurie17_ I think it was you who said your Fi values are Fe ones? Defending other people, being kind, something like that? I was a little surprised because those are classic Fi things to me. Fe is typically portrayed as the one excluding people and being snarky, while Fi I think is often portrayed as the kind, gentle, loving function. _I_ think F is F, F is at its best kind and loving because to some extent that _is_ its purpose, but stereotypes disagree :/


The thing is, both Fi and Fe are more about value/worth than being nice or caring, it's just that that's supposedly the most common expression of Feeling (or the one that ties into Feeler stereotypes/expectations, which means people prefer to use it because it's what they expect).

In reality, Fi is about valuing things based on personal criteria (plus that whole internal atmosphere thing vs Fe's external atmosphere preoccupation) while Fe values things based more on external criteria i.e. typically it's said to be the opinions of others. This is why I said Fe users seem to be more likely to be influenced by others while Fi users can appear more insular - Fi users are extraverted through their Te, which means they're more likely to be influenced by external criteria for what is correct, but in terms of value, it's what holds value to them (regardless of if it contradicts what is said to have value) - conversely, Fe users extravert through Fe (external criteria of worth), but in terms of what is correct, that's what is correct to them (regardless of 'facts' - but that doesn't mean they instantly reject all facts or science etc., it just means they have more of a tendency to have their own idea of what is correct and so are less influenced by external facts - a good example of Fe-Ti was shown by my ESFJ friend who said something-or-other was 'objectively bad' when we were debating and I got wound up because there's no such thing as 'objective badness' - yes a lot of people might agree something is bad, but that doesn't mean it's objective. Good and bad are not objective to me. (I think that was the point I walked away... then came back and carried on the debate) His Ti came out in how, despite my sister and I giving him facts and, in my sister's case, academic journals and papers challenging his idea, he stuck with the fact that something he thought was correct. <- That's a good example of negative Fe-Ti, though. Usually Fe users are a lot more open than that.).

Anyway, Fi and Fe can both be caring or exclusive. Fi might exclude those who challenge one of their strongly held beliefs (because of disruption to the internal atmosphere) while Fe might exclude someone who disturbed the external atmosphere by behaving inappropriately (which could be mistaken for Fi, but comes very much from the external arena). An Fe user might be very caring towards people through obvious displays of affection (which are there to show love and care) i.e. buying them a present or giving them a hug, whereas an Fi user might care for people but show it through something they feel shows their affection (i.e. I patted my ESFJ friend's head (Just calling them my ESFJ friends is getting tough, because I know two now and knew one, who was a bad one, but out of the current two, one is a sort-of-friend (my sister's boyfriend) and the other is a close-ish friend. This refers to the close-ish friend), which she said was weird, but it's how I show affection - if I pat you on the head, that's a sign of closeness. I don't really like hugs and when my Fe using sister says we should buy something for someone, I say 'Why? They could afford it themselves.' not meaning it badly, but I guess that's some Te coming out... I occasionally buy surprise things for people, but only when I want them to have it i.e. buying my mum some earrings because she looked at them for a while = inference that she wanted them = I want her to have what she wants. It's not to show affection, because presents don't show affection in my world, but just to get them something they want... It's hard to explain. Hopefully the difference is clear?)


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> At least I'll get a good view before I die, kind of like crucifixion. :laughing: (Monty Python is brilliant. :wink: )


*resists sharing a bunch of horrible knowledge she knows about crucifixion procedures*

Sorry. I'm fixated on ancient Rome and Judea.



> Ah yes, I was wondering because he seemed similar to what you said about him way back then. :tongue: Hannibal, oh man, I've only watched the first episode, but it seems like a total Ni fiesta, symbolism upon symbolism. :laughing: I only hope it ends better than another example of that, Evangelion. :wink:


It is indeed a Ni-fest. It's fascinating. Show started up last night. I'm a bit ... hmm, how do I feel? Baffled with Bedelia. Yes, that's it.



> I just searched up examples of the rudest cities, and what do ya know, Australia isn't on there. Y'know, I feel kind of excluded. Though it's only natural by now, considering we're the unknowns down here. :kitteh:


What is in your water down there, besides sharks? You see, I can't help noticing that all the Aussie actors are ... extremely hot.

Not that I'm complaining, mind.

Random statement: the thing I hate most about Si is something triggering an unpleasant memory, and then I'm back wallowing in it, and feeling the same intense emotional reactions wafting over me, as if it happened two minutes ago and not years. I always read about how Si loves to dwell in its past? Me? Not so much. I hardly ever think about my past, consciously. I don't wander back into it for fun. The only way it seems to pop up is in negative ways -- to remind me of the times I failed, or got embarrassed, or made a social faux pas, or whatever. It sucks.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Random statement: the thing I hate most about Si is something triggering an unpleasant memory, and then I'm back wallowing in it, and feeling the same intense emotional reactions wafting over me, as if it happened two minutes ago and not years. I always read about how Si loves to dwell in its past? Me? Not so much. I hardly ever think about my past, consciously. I don't wander back into it for fun. The only way it seems to pop up is in negative ways -- to remind me of the times I failed, or got embarrassed, or made a social faux pas, or whatever. It sucks.


This has always confused me about Si because how do we distinguish it from... being emotionally triggered, for example? The kind of emotional upset that has deep roots in an unpleasant past or experience. I think most people experience this at one point or another.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> This has always confused me about Si because how do we distinguish it from... being emotionally triggered, for example? The kind of emotional upset that has deep roots in an unpleasant past or experience. I think most people experience this at one point or another.


Yup. While I think Si users would be more prone to do this about ordinary things, I know that triggering things with trauma is a heightened form of what was described here.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@laurie17 sorry I have to go now, but I know you made some great points and I look forward to reading them. (And yes, Fi and Fe are both about value by definition... but I think their beautiful true function is to bring people to feeling, to life, to heart, to love. But I don't know. That's the biased assessment of an Fe-dominant.)


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ sorry I have to go now, but I know you made some great points and I look forward to reading them. (And yes, Fi and Fe are both about value by definition... but I think their beautiful true function is to bring people to feeling, to life, to heart, to love. But I don't know. That's the biased assessment of an Fe-dominant.)


No problem! 


Also. I am very excited because I just got a job interview for the Friday two weeks away.








(I've been internally moping for the last few days because I thought I wouldn't get any interviews.)


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> *resists sharing a bunch of horrible knowledge she knows about crucifixion procedures*
> 
> Sorry. I'm fixated on ancient Rome and Judea.


Aw, don't ruin the magic of Monty Python for me, plz. :wink:



angelcat said:


> It is indeed a Ni-fest. It's fascinating. Show started up last night. I'm a bit ... hmm, how do I feel? Baffled with Bedelia. Yes, that's it.


Haha, again, similar to Evangelion, I just feel soaked up in all the symbolism and work my brain into trying to figure it all out. Never really works out, but hey, that way a really bad ending can seem rather fitting. :tongue:



angelcat said:


> What is in your water down there, besides sharks? You see, I can't help noticing that all the Aussie actors are ... extremely hot.
> 
> Not that I'm complaining, mind.
> 
> Random statement: the thing I hate most about Si is something triggering an unpleasant memory, and then I'm back wallowing in it, and feeling the same intense emotional reactions wafting over me, as if it happened two minutes ago and not years. I always read about how Si loves to dwell in its past? Me? Not so much. I hardly ever think about my past, consciously. I don't wander back into it for fun. The only way it seems to pop up is in negative ways -- to remind me of the times I failed, or got embarrassed, or made a social faux pas, or whatever. It sucks.


Oh jeez, another one. Don't ask me what's with our male actors. :dry:

For me, personally, the past is the past, although I will go back and do things related to that past, like play a game which everyone apparently hated, but hell, I loved it. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Yup. While I think Si users would be more prone to do this about ordinary things, I know that triggering things with trauma is a heightened form of what was described here.


I think for high Si that works _a lot_ for pleasant memories too.


----------



## Immolate

Now that @Oswin and @alittlebear have settled on their types, who is willing to jump into the fray?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Now that @Oswin and @alittlebear have settled on their types, who is willing to jump into the fray?


Well, if someone wants to type me, really, saying no would be a waste of time. :wink: Still, I think I'm on the lower scale of importance, here, so if anyone else wants to go first, please do. :happy:


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> This has always confused me about Si because how do we distinguish it from... being emotionally triggered, for example? The kind of emotional upset that has deep roots in an unpleasant past or experience. I think most people experience this at one point or another.


Dunno.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, if someone wants to type me, really, saying no would be a waste of time. :wink: Still, I think I'm on the *lower scale of importance, here, so if anyone else wants to go first, please do. *:happy:


Nonsense. I'll do my best.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Nonsense. I'll do my best.


Appreciate it. :happy:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Well, if someone wants to type me, really, saying no would be a waste of time. :wink: Still, I think I'm on the lower scale of importance, here, so if anyone else wants to go first, please do. :happy:


Pe dominant, Ti-Fe user?

Do you prefer to wait and see how things are, or hypothesise about how they might be? (Very simplistic question, so feel free to say both, but try to elaborate on why.)


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> Pe dominant, Ti-Fe user?
> 
> Do you prefer to wait and see how things are, or hypothesise about how they might be? (Very simplistic question, so feel free to say both, but try to elaborate on why.)


Seems a bit odd to restrict yourself to those types, but sure, I'll go with it.

Hm, mostly wait to see how things are, while preoccupying myself to research about it so as not to waste time. Recklessly doing anything is a sure way to fail, I've found.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Appreciate it. :happy:


A while back you said you were disillusioned and no longer had specific goals or visions. If you were to work past this, what would you say you'd strive to accomplish? see? experience?


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Seems a bit odd to restrict yourself to those types, but sure, I'll go with it.
> 
> Hm, mostly wait to see how things are, while preoccupying myself to research about it so as not to waste time. Recklessly doing anything is a sure way to fail, I've found.


I'm going by how you seem to think based on your way of communicating, so it's probably heavily flawed.

Maybe you use Se, then? What do you think of ESTP or ISTP?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> A while back you said you were disillusioned and no longer had specific goals or visions. If you were to work past this, what would you say you'd strive to accomplish? see? experience?


Hm, well, if I were to work past it, I would most likely try to understand the mysteries of the world. It pains me that so much is unknown, especially regarding religion, but I don't have any particular drive towards science either. Though, maybe it's just me, but it pisses me the hell off that I'll never be able to live past another century, and that I'll likely grow old and die with cancer, it's really annoying. :dry:


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I'm going by how you seem to think based on your way of communicating, so it's probably heavily flawed.
> 
> Maybe you use Se, then? What do you think of ESTP or ISTP?


Haha, I'm pretty affable, I will admit, but it's no fun being all serious 24/7. :wink:

I've read a bit about them, although my main annoyance with ISTP is that they're way, way overhyped as the stereotypical action hero, and I'm really not like that. :laughing: As for ESTP, since I've been in a pretty poor mental state for months now, with y'know, hedonism and all, I have to rely on my childhood memories of myself. I was pretty Ne back then, even lying to my principal for why I was getting sent to her office and receiving a week's worth of detentions. That was a laugh. :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Hm, well, if I were to work past it, I would most likely try to understand the mysteries of the world. It pains me that so much is unknown, especially regarding religion, but I don't have any particular drive towards science either. Though, maybe it's just me, but it pisses me the hell off that I'll never be able to live past another century, and that I'll likely grow old and die with cancer, it's really annoying. :dry:


What interests you about religion?

Other than the unpleasantness of dying, why does the thought make you angry? How long would you like to live and why?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> What interests you about religion?
> 
> Other than the unpleasantness of dying, why does the thought make you angry? How long would you like to live and why?


Mostly, just knowing why I was born, although it would be nice to know why my vocal talents were crippled before I even got the chance to audition for the nearest singing contest. :laughing:

It makes me angry, mainly because I feel I'll be useless without my stamina or mind, and I really don't want my life to be meaningless by believing in the wrong religion, there's so many things I could repeat if I had the chance, but I just can't. Theoretically, I'd love to live forever, just living and seeing how people evolve, along with the world, because even if you can change the world into a better place, it'll inevitably change from that was well.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Mostly, just knowing why I was born, although it would be nice to know why my vocal talents were crippled before I even got the chance to audition for the nearest singing contest. :laughing:
> 
> It makes me angry, mainly because I feel I'll be useless without my stamina or mind, and I really don't want my life to be meaningless by believing in the wrong religion, there's so many things I could repeat if I had the chance, but I just can't. Theoretically, I'd love to live forever, just living and seeing how people evolve, along with the world, because even if you can change the world into a better place, it'll inevitably change from that was well.


Thank you for answering 

Why would you feel your life is meaningless if you believe in the wrong religion? Is it because you feel you're living a lie? Missing out on the truth? Would you prefer to know the truth even if it went against everything you know and/or want?

How would you like people and the world to evolve?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Thank you for answering
> 
> Why would you feel your life is meaningless if you believe in the wrong religion? Is it because you feel you're living a lie? Missing out on the truth? Would you prefer to know the truth even if it went against everything you know and/or want?
> 
> How would you like people and the world to evolve?


No problem, philosophical questions are rather cool. :laughing:

Well, I mainly said that because, well, if the Christian God is real, where do Buddhists do when they die, and vice versa, do Christians get reincarnated into humans? But to answer your questions, the truth is something that's both ambiguous, and something that you can base your life around, as once you find the truth, you can mould your life around that, it's much more difficult to do the opposite, as that involves self-delusion. And, well, I feel like most of my life has been something I've just wandered through, having very little to motivate me to succeed in the business world, and I regret a lot of actions that I've done.

Oh man, here's the big guns. :laughing: Have you ever seen a show called Psycho-Pass? If you haven't, the society in it is _perfect_ in that it measures criminal behaviours and basically stifles any creativity and freedom citizens have, so much so that it inadvertently creates criminals out of that. One of the saddest (to me) arcs in that show is where you see people who have gone through so little stress since this implementation that their brain stops responding to basic stimuli, and just classifies them as brain-dead, so much so that one of the villains is a cyborg who hunts civilians to keep himself alive. That's exactly the society I don't want, where security is put above freedom. Though, by the way society is going nowadays, there's going to be a lot of technological developments, and very little into creativity, so that's a downside.


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> I think for high Si that works _a lot_ for pleasant memories too.


For everything.

I watch "Lorna Doone," and suddenly I'm thrust back into my younger years, thinking about detailed conversations I had with other fans about everything from the weave of the Celtic carpet in Sir Ensor's home to the braids in Carver's hair. I remember the emotional reactions of everyone I showed it to. I remember it rained the afternoon I first saw it (the perfect weather), and Dad walked in and sat down thirty minutes from the end (typical) and wanted filled in during the commercial break. And then, THAT happened (spoiler) and he said, and I quote, "Well, THAT'S A HELL OF AN ENDING." It wasn't the end, just a commercial, but we were both floored with the twist. 

It's like ... one thought triggers a fountain of connected remembrances, and my mind fills in the rest. Good or bad, it works this way with everything. That's why I'm so careful in sharing things I love with people -- because their reaction is going to color my associations with it for the rest of my life. I'll go to my grave laughing over the hilarious conversations I've had with friends over my favorite version of "Dracula." Watching it brings them all back.

So, I guess I don't SEEK to dwell in my memories, but they voluntarily spring up via association with certain things.


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Haha, I'm pretty affable, I will admit, but it's no fun being all serious 24/7. :wink:
> 
> I've read a bit about them, although my main annoyance with ISTP is that they're way, way overhyped as the stereotypical action hero, and I'm really not like that. :laughing: As for ESTP, since I've been in a pretty poor mental state for months now, with y'know, hedonism and all, I have to rely on my childhood memories of myself. I was pretty Ne back then, even lying to my principal for why I was getting sent to her office and receiving a week's worth of detentions. That was a laugh. :kitteh:


Was lying to the principal Ne? It doesn't seem related to a function.

I think @tine had some issues working out ISTP for her, so maybe she can give you some insight?

(Judging from your later answers, you do seem Se to me.)


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> Was lying to the principal Ne? It doesn't seem related to a function.
> 
> I think @tine had some issues working out ISTP for her, so maybe she can give you some insight?
> 
> (Judging from your later answers, you do seem Se to me.)


Nah, it doesn't really relate to Ne at all, actually, just never shared that one on here, and I'm running out of fresh material. :wink:

Well, by all means @tine.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> No problem, philosophical questions are rather cool. :laughing:
> 
> Well, I mainly said that because, well, if the Christian God is real, where do Buddhists do when they die, and vice versa, do Christians get reincarnated into humans? But to answer your questions, the truth is something that's both ambiguous, and something that you can base your life around, as once you find the truth, you can mould your life around that, it's much more difficult to do the opposite, as that involves self-delusion. And, well, I feel like most of my life has been something I've just wandered through, having very little to motivate me to succeed in the business world, and I regret a lot of actions that I've done.


You kind of already answered what I want to ask, but do you think people can create their own truth, whether individual or universal? Can they create their own structure for their lives? Do you feel you need outside truth to bring order into your life?



Barakiel said:


> Oh man, here's the big guns. :laughing: Have you ever seen a show called Psycho-Pass? If you haven't, the society in it is _perfect_ in that it measures criminal behaviours and basically stifles any creativity and freedom citizens have, so much so that it inadvertently creates criminals out of that. One of the saddest (to me) arcs in that show is where you see people who have gone through so little stress since this implementation that their brain stops responding to basic stimuli, and just classifies them as brain-dead, so much so that one of the villains is a cyborg who hunts civilians to keep himself alive. That's exactly the society I don't want, where security is put above freedom. Though, by the way society is going nowadays, there's going to be a lot of technological developments, and very little into creativity, so that's a downside.


I haven't seen Psycho-Pass, but now I will :laughing:

By freedom you mean freedom of thought and expression and creativity (and so on)? Why can't technology and creativity co-exist? What do you consider creativity? Where does it come from and how does it manifest?


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> alittlebear said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yes well I did switch and it was a series of talks that led to that, but ultimately I was banished from being an SFJ by @angelcat and, being timid, I did not think to disobey
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, good. People are finally listening to me.
Click to expand...

lmao! I wanna listen! What are you banning from me?!


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> You kind of already answered what I want to ask, but do you think people can create their own truth, whether individual or universal? Can they create their own structure for their lives? Do you feel you need outside truth to bring order into your life?


I think, like most subjective terms, truth is rather superfluous, and means whatever the speaker wants it to mean, as a motivation to do something, or something that they consider objective to strive for, like I imagine an idealistic lawyer would. I would actually go further than that and say that the only meaningful structure is to the individual, not the collective, as civilizations have crumbled to ashes before. Though I would also say that people as a whole need identification or support to be totally sure in their beliefs, maybe it's something in the atmosphere. :tongue: Outside truth really means nothing to me, in fact, I scorn most traditions and social conventions, like getting a job. I mean, you're going to quit that job eventually, so why bother, just for a bit of extra cash? :kitteh:



shinynotshiny said:


> I haven't seen Psycho-Pass, but now I will :laughing:
> 
> By freedom you mean freedom of thought and expression and creativity (and so on)? Why can't technology and creativity co-exist? What do you consider creativity? Where does it come from and how does it manifest?


Well, as such, I feel obligated to mention you can find it on most anime sites, including https://www.animelab.com/, but you need to subscribe to watch it in English. Which I am going to endorse heavily, because the English VAs do an *out-staaanding* job. :wink:

I mean freedom to do what the believer feels is right, which is why, contrary to most people, I don't hate terrorism. As for why the two cannot coexist, people in power will always seek to force their agenda, such as the military and federal agencies employing spies to _"prevent"_ another war, when in actuality, it causes them. I consider creativity to be ideas that challenge the natural order, or deconstruct existing ones into oblivion, which is part of the reason why I believe order, or in this case, technology, and chaos, or creativity, cannot coexist without compromises. As for where it comes from, jesus, don't ask me, I'm the least naturally creative person I know, but I can deconstruct pretty well, and appreciate a good one. :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, actually, it's because of the complete opposite reason, you try to make everyone else happy that you ignore yourself, even though I do admittedly do the same, it stings because I value individuality beyond group happiness, and you squander that, in my eyes. If you're familiar with the media of Fate/Stay Night, Shirou Emiya's ideal is the personification of Fe, imo, he just wants everyone to be happy, even if he's slowly killing himself doing it. It's why I liked the story arc where he gives up on that to be the best, even though the one before that deconstructs that ideal to the core. Ironically, the recent anime made him a lot more relateable, but I'm sure many would disagree, and this isn't the place for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Anyway, that's most of my reasons for why I dislike heavy Fe users; in excess, I can't help but feel they're killing themselves slowly by caring too much.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. _I AGREE. _
> 
> I don't dislike the person, but I dislike their degree of self-sacrifice. One of my closest friends has CP and will sometimes forgo using his wheelchair if he doesn't have to walk long distances. Even so, it's very exhausting for him, but that doesn't stop him from opening doors for people and holding that door for the entire fucking theater until I pull him away, or letting everyone out of the elevator before he dares walk out himself, or filling out questionnaires when someone is handing them out even though the act of writing is a bit difficult for him. When he does use his wheelchair, I like helping him out from time to time if he's okay with it because I like to threaten to run over people. A lot of the time, they simply do not care to move out of the way or make space for him, and yet he's all politeness. No. Run them over, friend, it's okay. I tell him he needs a tiny bit of selfishness and that it won't make him a bad person. He hates the idea of being a bad person and will not feel okay until he has fixed whatever wrong he perceives he has committed.
> 
> That's not even the half of it.
> 
> He is too nice for this world.
Click to expand...

Wow! That is beyond beautiful at the same time gut wrenching. What a spirit! Maybe he does this to prove to himself , he is just as capable. Or maybe he does it to inspire. I know that I would feel JUST like you on the matter. It would take everything I had to not whoop some ass over this.... but, he has also inspired me in a way! Maybe that is his mission. To inspire others to be kinder and count their blessings and not let things bring them down. If so, it worked!


----------



## Persephone Soul

Greyhart said:


> Yeah, this is why I worried (still worry tbh) about moving out and leaving my mother unsupervised by me. She's too kind, too trusting, too unparanoid and giving. People often take advantage of her and dad doesn't have proper persuasion skills to talk her into being more cautious in such situations.


My mom to a T! I am her guide/guard dog really lol


----------



## Immolate

@Barakiel

First, thank you for the link 

Second, a while back we said you used Fi/Te, right? I still see it, but I'm curious what other people see. (Speak up, yes?)

Third, you have a somewhat antagonistic opinion about technology because you think it breeds conflict and power struggle. (Did I get that right?) If we look at technology apart from war and government, do you see it helping or stifling human progress? Along that line, what is progress?

Fourth, you mentioned you don't relate to Ne anymore. What made you change your mind?

@SugarPlum 

I remember when we were at the zoo and a little girl kept staring at him, then she threw something at him. Her mother came up and said rather defensively "It's just a leaf" and then walked away. Yeah, it was just a leaf, but really? This is why I am not Fe lol. I'm a cynical person, but he _has _inspired me to be more positive. He's one of the few people in my life I don't want to burden with my struggles (even small ones) because he takes it to heart and puts others before himself.


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> Now that @Oswin and @alittlebear have settled on their types, who is willing to jump into the fray?



M-m-m-me...? *chews nails*... *GULP*


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> M-m-m-me...? *chews nails*... *GULP*


We're going to need a plan for this


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> @Barakiel
> 
> First, thank you for the link
> 
> Second, a while back we said you used Fi/Te, right? I still see it, but I'm curious what other people see. (Speak up, yes?)
> 
> Third, you have a somewhat antagonistic opinion about technology because you think it breeds conflict and power struggle. (Did I get that right?) If we look at technology apart from war and government, do you see it helping or stifling human progress? Along that line, what is progress?
> 
> Fourth, you mentioned you don't relate to Ne anymore. What made you change your mind?


No worries, always looking to help people getting into anime, specifically legally and with HD. :laughing:

Well, since I can't help regarding Fi-Te, I'll go straight into technology. I don't hate technology, oh hell no, I love it, as it has me experience more stories than I could possibly imagine without it, but it does have me miss out on all the medieval experiences. I'd say it's neutral without human influence, but with human influence, which naturally will happen regardless, it has the potential to be progressive, or conservative, and both have warped interpretations. I don't hate technology at all, I hate how leaders and people can use it to stifle whatever freedom we have left. Progress is the absence and antithesis of tradition, and the will to advance whichever justification you feel is right. Of course I assume you're asking me, and not the collective. :wink:

Ne... see, the problem with me and Ne, is that most Ne users I've seen are amazingly creative, pulling ideas out of thin air... Yeah, I don't do that, I just twist things to suit me, it doesn't really seem like Ne to do that. But then I behave like a stereotypical ENTP, and it confuses the hell out of me. :tongue:



shinynotshiny said:


> @SugarPlum
> 
> I remember when we were at the zoo and a little girl kept staring at him, then she threw something at him. Her mother came up and said rather defensively "It's just a leaf" and then walked away. Yeah, it was just a leaf, but really? This is why I am not Fe lol. I'm a cynical person, but he _has _inspired me to be more positive. He's one of the few people in my life I don't want to burden with my struggles (even small ones) because he takes it to heart and puts others before himself.


What I don't get, is why the kid threw something, sure, I can understand staring, since kids take a while to comprehend things outside their spectrum, like most people, but throwing something is odd. Though, I don't really see anything wrong with the people in question, it's only natural. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> M-m-m-me...? *chews nails*... *GULP*


 I guess I should help.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Was lying to the principal Ne? It doesn't seem related to a function.
> 
> I think @_tine_ had some issues working out ISTP for her, so maybe she can give you some insight?
> 
> (Judging from your later answers, you do seem Se to me.)


 @_Barakiel_
Se isn't so much living in the moment for me as being really drawn to certain things and having a really good sensory memory of everything i.e. I really want to go and do snowboarding and wander alone in the woods/mountains, and can place sounds/smells/visual cues well. My Ti makes me very hesitant to actually do things because it evaluates it all before I can just act. I am getting better at going for things, but find it hard, especially as I tend to work out whats happening and how realistic it is for me to do and all the pros and cons etc. My Fe also kicks in a makes me unhappy if I go against the majority if it's with people I care about (I hate making them unhappy) but will go against the majority if it's people I dont care about. Ni is more part of my focus i.e. getting lost in drawing or games. I tend to be very much in my head a lot, but am more expressive through actions than my sister (INFP) but not nearly as active and acting outwardly as my ESxP friend and mum.


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> @Barakiel
> 
> First, thank you for the link
> 
> Second, a while back we said you used Fi/Te, right? I still see it, but I'm curious what other people see. (Speak up, yes?)
> 
> Third, you have a somewhat antagonistic opinion about technology because you think it breeds conflict and power struggle. (Did I get that right?) If we look at technology apart from war and government, do you see it helping or stifling human progress? Along that line, what is progress?
> 
> Fourth, you mentioned you don't relate to Ne anymore. What made you change your mind?
> 
> @SugarPlum
> 
> I remember when we were at the zoo and a little girl kept staring at him, then she threw something at him. Her mother came up and said rather defensively "It's just a leaf" and then walked away. Yeah, it was just a leaf, but really? This is why I am not Fe lol. I'm a cynical person, but he _has _inspired me to be more positive. He's one of the few people in my life I don't want to burden with my struggles (even small ones) because he takes it to heart and puts others before himself.


Yeah, that INFURIATES me!


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> We're going to need a plan for this


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> No worries, always looking to help people getting into anime, specifically legally and with HD. :laughing:
> 
> Well, since I can't help regarding Fi-Te, I'll go straight into technology. I don't hate technology, oh hell no, I love it, as it has me experience more stories than I could possibly imagine without it, but it does have me miss out on all the medieval experiences. I'd say it's neutral without human influence, but with human influence, which naturally will happen regardless, it has the potential to be progressive, or conservative, and both have warped interpretations. I don't hate technology at all, I hate how leaders and people can use it to stifle whatever freedom we have left. Progress is the absence and antithesis of tradition, and the will to advance whichever justification you feel is right. Of course I assume you're asking me, and not the collective. :wink:
> 
> Ne... see, the problem with me and Ne, is that most Ne users I've seen are amazingly creative, pulling ideas out of thin air... Yeah, I don't do that, I just twist things to suit me, it doesn't really seem like Ne to do that. But then I behave like a stereotypical ENTP, and it confuses the hell out of me. :tongue:


If you don't feel your Ne is Ne enough, then that would indicate Si/Ne and I don't see it. That leaves Ni/Se in some order, but.

Out of curiosity, what medieval experiences are you referring to and why do you find them interesting?



Barakiel said:


> What I don't get, is why the kid threw something, sure, I can understand staring, since kids take a while to comprehend things outside their spectrum, like most people, but throwing something is odd. Though, I don't really see anything wrong with the people in question, it's only natural. :wink:


It was more the mother's reaction that baffled me. We didn't say anything, but maybe I had a strange look on my face and she felt the need to defend her daughter, which is absolutely fine, but maybe let her know it's not nice to throw stuff at strangers???

@SugarPlum oh my goodness that video, tiny human falling over in a belly laugh, baby laughter is the best


----------



## Tad Cooper

SugarPlum said:


> M-m-m-me...? *chews nails*... *GULP*


Give us a little summary of things about you, no matter what they are or how relevant?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> If you don't feel your Ne is Ne enough, then that would indicate Si/Ne and I don't see it. That leaves Ni/Se in some order, but.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what medieval experiences are you referring to and why do you find them interesting?


OK then, glad we've narrowed out four of the possible types with INFP, ENFP, ENTP and INTP. :wink: Now only 12 to go... brilliant. :dry:

Well, basically, jousting and swordfighting. I so want to do these things, and the best I can get is brawling with friends. :laughing: As for why I find them interesting, it's funny, I'm not really a strength focused guy when it comes to fighting, I'm pretty tactical and planning, but I just want to do it because it seems cool. :wink: Also, archery, why are there not any archery places around here. :dry:



shinynotshiny said:


> It was more the mother's reaction that baffled me. We didn't say anything, but maybe I had a strange look on my face and she felt the need to defend her daughter, which is absolutely fine, but maybe let her know it's not nice to throw stuff at strangers???


Well, it was a zoo, perhaps in their weird sense of morality, they treated your friend as the same as the animals? Which is ironic, cause throwing stuff at animals in zoos, _I think_, is illegal. Though, defending them seems rather pointless, tbh. :tongue:


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> For everything.
> 
> I watch "Lorna Doone," and suddenly I'm thrust back into my younger years, thinking about detailed conversations I had with other fans about everything from the weave of the Celtic carpet in Sir Ensor's home to the braids in Carver's hair. I remember the emotional reactions of everyone I showed it to. I remember it rained the afternoon I first saw it (the perfect weather), and Dad walked in and sat down thirty minutes from the end (typical) and wanted filled in during the commercial break. And then, THAT happened (spoiler) and he said, and I quote, "Well, THAT'S A HELL OF AN ENDING." It wasn't the end, just a commercial, but we were both floored with the twist.
> 
> It's like ... one thought triggers a fountain of connected remembrances, and my mind fills in the rest. Good or bad, it works this way with everything. That's why I'm so careful in sharing things I love with people -- because their reaction is going to color my associations with it for the rest of my life. I'll go to my grave laughing over the hilarious conversations I've had with friends over my favorite version of "Dracula." Watching it brings them all back.
> 
> So, I guess I don't SEEK to dwell in my memories, but they voluntarily spring up via association with certain things.


I love to revisit my memories! Good and bad, really. I don't know... nostalgia is a FAVORITE past time. I will put on Disney's and relive the past through them. My husband and I go down memory lane ALL THE TIME. We both (him actually prob even a little worse) take forever to go through the storage shed/closets and spring clean, because each ancient artifact we encounter, we will reminisces... we find an old photo album, its like an hour of "awwwe look! We were so young! Remember when we....". I love it. That is prob the only reason I actually keep a journal. I love to turn back the pages and feel the emotions on the page all over again. I love to see where I was, and where I am now. My nostalgia is MY Pandora's Box. Once you open it, the flood gates to my soul come rushing out. I can actually become dark/Emo'ish when I fall into a depression. It's like I almost like being depressed in a weird weird way (well CERTAIN forms of it). I embrace the dark inside. Yeah, so that just got awkward lol


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> @_Barakiel_
> Se isn't so much living in the moment for me as being really drawn to certain things and having a really good sensory memory of everything i.e. I really want to go and do snowboarding and wander alone in the woods/mountains, and can place sounds/smells/visual cues well. My Ti makes me very hesitant to actually do things because it evaluates it all before I can just act. I am getting better at going for things, but find it hard, especially as I tend to work out whats happening and how realistic it is for me to do and all the pros and cons etc. My Fe also kicks in a makes me unhappy if I go against the majority if it's with people I care about (I hate making them unhappy) but will go against the majority if it's people I dont care about. Ni is more part of my focus i.e. getting lost in drawing or games. I tend to be very much in my head a lot, but am more expressive through actions than my sister (INFP) but not nearly as active and acting outwardly as my ESxP friend and mum.


Hm... intriguing. Can you describe Se-Ni and Ne-Si in the same position, perhaps in comparison to your sister? I'm curious how they behave in the same positions. :happy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> I guess I should help.


Honestly, I am way behind, and taking each comment one by one... So I had NO idea you were up next(until now)! Let's focus on YOU first!


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> OK then, glad we've narrowed out four of the possible types with INFP, ENFP, ENTP and INTP. :wink: Now only 12 to go... brilliant. :dry:


Oh stop 



Barakiel said:


> Well, basically, jousting and swordfighting. I so want to do these things, and the best I can get is brawling with friends. :laughing: As for why I find them interesting, it's funny, I'm not really a strength focused guy when it comes to fighting, I'm pretty tactical and planning, but I just want to do it because it seems cool. :wink: Also, archery, why are there not any archery places around here. :dry:


I tried using a bow once... it did not go well. So, jousting, sword fighting, archery. I'm seeing something here 

I get why sword fighting and archery are cool, but jousting? Do explain if you're willing.



Barakiel said:


> Well, it was a zoo, perhaps in their weird sense of morality, they treated your friend as the same as the animals? Which is ironic, cause throwing stuff at animals in zoos, _I think_, is illegal. Though, defending them seems rather pointless, tbh. :tongue:


Have you no soul. However, and unfortunately, that mindset exists throughout history.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh stop


Aw, and I was just getting started. :wink:



shinynotshiny said:


> I tried using a bow once... it did not go well. So, jousting, sword fighting, archery. I'm seeing something here
> 
> I get why sword fighting and archery are cool, but jousting? Do explain if you're willing.


Eh, it's something new I get to do. :laughing: Plus, I do wonder how riding a horse is different from driving in a car, which I hate. :dry:



shinynotshiny said:


> Have you no soul. However, and unfortunately, that mindset exists throughout history.


No, it was burned out by the various misdeeds and torment I've seen. :kitteh: Yeah, ableism, if @alittlebear termed it correctly, is a decent example of what happens when people get the idea in their head that people are inferior to them. Hilarious when you think about it, as we're all inferior and superior to each other. :happy:

Also, I thought I couldn't feel sad anymore. Why Ufotable. :frustrating:


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Honestly, I am way behind, and taking each comment one by one... So I had NO idea you were up next(until now)! Let's focus on YOU first!


Oh please, that's no reason to let you wait, I'll be here all day at this rate. Though I'm chalking one up to Fe for that little sentence. :laughing:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Hm... intriguing. Can you describe Se-Ni and Ne-Si in the same position, perhaps in comparison to your sister? I'm curious how they behave in the same positions. :happy:


Sure! I'll stick in comparisons of things we do/ways we think as best I can.
Se-Ni (me): I'll start with writing. I tend to over-think it and this can make it stilted. I get frustrated because of not being able to express the beautify of the image in my head with words (none are right for the image and so I'm not satisfied with it). I seem more drawn to art because, although it's hard to get the image to look right, I can copy bits from other images and stick them together and then use the knowledge from that image I've stuck together to create my own work. 
Learning is also different, as I like to learn by watching someone do the task and then copying them (or changing it if I spot room for improvement). I seem to find it fairly easy to learn physical tasks i.e. I learnt archery very easily and could do well every time I did it because I watched people do it, copied and modified what I saw until it worked for me. I also had this with medieval fencing, which was me watching the instructor, copying him exactly and then modifying it (I ended up as one of the two top people in the class). I do struggle with memorisation from notes/lectures though. I tend to need to make detailed notes in class and then write them out repeatedly in order to learn them.
I'd say that Se allows me to grasp physical things easily and Ni makes it so I have a very set image in my head of what I want (one of my frustrations with writing). Ni allows me to focus on each action a person does, observed by Se and comprehended through Ti. 

Ne-Si (sister): So with writing, my sister has a similar number of ideas to me but is really good at building on them, whereas I feel unable to. I think this is Ne taking an idea and creating an entire scenario or world from it. She seems able to have an idea and then leave it and sudden have most of a novel in her head. Unlike me she's more open to changing the story as it goes. I feel nervous changing things without looking at where it will lead (tert Ni?) whereas she's very good at allowing the change to happen and moving on, she even gets very pleased by unexpected turns in the stories.
With learning, my sister is great at just sitting down and reading. She doesn't need the physical engagement or to watch people before she knows something, but can create the image of what needs to be done in her head from vague instructions.

One thing we really differ on is with people. She's been called very harsh or judgemental, whereas I've been told I'm to relaxed and let people do whatever without stopping them. She's more likely to openly object to something she feels is wrong, whereas I'm usually taken aback and have to assess how I feel before acting, which makes my response slower. We both like to help with problems in similar ways (offering solutions), but my immature Fe comes out as awkward/anxious comforting ("Please dont be sad, I cant deal with people crying!") whereas she'll tell them exactly what to do and be very uncomfortable comforting them ("This is the solution, dont get upset, just do that").
She is also very good at telling what she's capable of dealing with, whereas I panic when I'm asked to do things and either hum and harr about it or just say yes and regret it later. I think her inf Te lets her make very rational decisions and can assess what she can and cant do, possibly being too critical of herself on many occasions, whereas my inf Fe makes me anxious with what to do and how to keep people from being upset with me while being able to do what I want to do (this leads to an internal conflict and I've learnt to tell people I need to think about things before I commit).

I dont know if that helps at all?


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> I love to revisit my memories! Good and bad, really. I don't know... nostalgia is a FAVORITE past time. I will put on Disney's and relive the past through them. My husband and I go down memory lane ALL THE TIME. We both (him actually prob even a little worse) take forever to go through the storage shed/closets and spring clean, because each ancient artifact we encounter, we will reminisces... we find an old photo album, its like an hour of "awwwe look! We were so young! Remember when we....". I love it. That is prob the only reason I actually keep a journal. I love to turn back the pages and feel the emotions on the page all over again. I love to see where I was, and where I am now. My nostalgia is MY Pandora's Box. Once you open it, the flood gates to my soul come rushing out. I can actually become dark/Emo'ish when I fall into a depression. It's like I almost like being depressed in a weird weird way (well CERTAIN forms of it). I embrace the dark inside. Yeah, so that just got awkward lol


Si.

INFP. I think you have a Fi/Si thing going on, and from our many previous conversations, I've never thought inferior Ne.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Si.
> 
> INFP. I think you have a Fi/Si thing going on, and from our many previous conversations, I've never thought inferior Ne.


It all goes back to Allie, from the Notebook. Me me ME! She convinced me I was ESFJ when you had her as that... but when you switched her to INFP, I was like, YES! She is an outgoing, very expressive and stubborn INFP! MEEEEEE! It is hard to accept Fi-dom and IP in general, because they are known for going in around-about ways of getting their points across. Passive-agression. Well, I can be very direct and just plain aggressive. You think Allie could be ENFP? Do you think my Si (the way described above) is higher or lower? 

ENFP...ESFJ and ISFJ are still options... I could see inferior Ne actually. I am very cautious, but I love change. 

Does anyone completely disagree with INFP?


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> (Not sure if you did this or I just misread it.)
> 
> Writing a book in chunks sounds like Ne/Si. I would never do that. I go from beginning to end. Skipping ahead to the "good parts" is cheating. I have to make all of it a good part.
> 
> But ... if you write a meandering mess, you fix it. You edit out the boring middle section or figure out how to make it work. With low Te, that might be a challenge. For me, it's taxing but ... I do it. Then again, I work as an editor for a living.


I used to write in chunks but then I started writing from the beginning on and I don't want to stray from that)
But, yeah, you're right) Now that I've slept on it, it seems more manageable)


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> It all goes back to Allie, from the Notebook. Me me ME! She convinced me I was ESFJ when you had her as that... but when you switched her to INFP, I was like, YES! She is an outgoing, very expressive and stubborn INFP! MEEEEEE! It is hard to accept Fi-dom and IP in general, because they are known for going in around-about ways of getting their points across. Passive-agression. Well, I can be very direct and just plain aggressive. You think Allie could be ENFP? Do you think my Si (the way described above) is higher or lower?
> 
> ENFP...ESFJ and ISFJ are still options... I could see inferior Ne actually. I am very cautious, but I love change.
> 
> Does anyone completely disagree with INFP?


 @Arrow convinced me she was INFP, using her argument with her mother as evidence. Inferior Te at play, so no, she is not an ENFP. She has no inferior Si, but inferior Te. 

As for you not fitting passive-aggressive stereotypes -- all the stereotypes about all the types are BS. Ignore all of them. That being said, I don't know a single IXFP who is passive aggressive. 

I think you're a feeling dominant, with a strong Si/Ne or Ne/Si. Most of what you write relates in some way to your strong opinions.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Sure! I'll stick in comparisons of things we do/ways we think as best I can.
> Se-Ni (me): I'll start with writing. I tend to over-think it and this can make it stilted. I get frustrated because of not being able to express the beautify of the image in my head with words (none are right for the image and so I'm not satisfied with it). I seem more drawn to art because, although it's hard to get the image to look right, I can copy bits from other images and stick them together and then use the knowledge from that image I've stuck together to create my own work.
> Learning is also different, as I like to learn by watching someone do the task and then copying them (or changing it if I spot room for improvement). I seem to find it fairly easy to learn physical tasks i.e. I learnt archery very easily and could do well every time I did it because I watched people do it, copied and modified what I saw until it worked for me. I also had this with medieval fencing, which was me watching the instructor, copying him exactly and then modifying it (I ended up as one of the two top people in the class). I do struggle with memorisation from notes/lectures though. I tend to need to make detailed notes in class and then write them out repeatedly in order to learn them.
> I'd say that Se allows me to grasp physical things easily and Ni makes it so I have a very set image in my head of what I want (one of my frustrations with writing). Ni allows me to focus on each action a person does, observed by Se and comprehended through Ti.
> 
> Ne-Si (sister): So with writing, my sister has a similar number of ideas to me but is really good at building on them, whereas I feel unable to. I think this is Ne taking an idea and creating an entire scenario or world from it. She seems able to have an idea and then leave it and sudden have most of a novel in her head. Unlike me she's more open to changing the story as it goes. I feel nervous changing things without looking at where it will lead (tert Ni?) whereas she's very good at allowing the change to happen and moving on, she even gets very pleased by unexpected turns in the stories.
> With learning, my sister is great at just sitting down and reading. She doesn't need the physical engagement or to watch people before she knows something, but can create the image of what needs to be done in her head from vague instructions.
> 
> One thing we really differ on is with people. She's been called very harsh or judgemental, whereas I've been told I'm to relaxed and let people do whatever without stopping them. She's more likely to openly object to something she feels is wrong, whereas I'm usually taken aback and have to assess how I feel before acting, which makes my response slower. We both like to help with problems in similar ways (offering solutions), but my immature Fe comes out as awkward/anxious comforting ("Please dont be sad, I cant deal with people crying!") whereas she'll tell them exactly what to do and be very uncomfortable comforting them ("This is the solution, dont get upset, just do that").
> She is also very good at telling what she's capable of dealing with, whereas I panic when I'm asked to do things and either hum and harr about it or just say yes and regret it later. I think her inf Te lets her make very rational decisions and can assess what she can and cant do, possibly being too critical of herself on many occasions, whereas my inf Fe makes me anxious with what to do and how to keep people from being upset with me while being able to do what I want to do (this leads to an internal conflict and I've learnt to tell people I need to think about things before I commit).
> 
> I dont know if that helps at all?


Wow, that's quite a lot to read. It seems like I relate more to Se-Ni than Ne-Si, since I don't do well with merging theory to practical, and I'm able to fix things quite easily, like dismantling a computer without any experience. :wink: It helps a lot, but it'll take a *long* time to digest all of this, sorry. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

@Barakiel I think you are Se-Ni.

As for Ti-Fe vs Fi-Te...I'm less certain, but I am inclined towards Ti-Fe, STP.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> @Arrow convinced me she was INFP, using her argument with her mother as evidence. Inferior Te at play, so no, she is not an ENFP. She has no inferior Si, but inferior Te.
> 
> As for you not fitting passive-aggressive stereotypes -- all the stereotypes about all the types are BS. Ignore all of them. That being said, I don't know a single IXFP who is passive aggressive.
> 
> I think you're a feeling dominant, with a strong Si/Ne or Ne/Si. Most of what you write relates in some way to your strong opinions.



I agree. Seriously, whatever she is, I AM! LOL. A lively INFP with high Si seems to really fit ( the most). I am not the "STEREOTYPICAL" INFP. Alas, I still am one. 

YAY. I am diagnosed! INFP it is! ^_^


----------



## Persephone Soul

@angelcat ... not to re-open this... But this video clip (specifically around 1:24) kinda points to Fe...


----------



## 68097

I know. Been there, seen that. Except that when Allie is really emotional, she climbs in the tub and broods. Alone. In silence. And like I said, her entire YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THIS FEELS AND I RESENT YOU PRETENDING YOU DO, MOM is pure Fi. Fe is not like that.

Here's real Fe (sorry, couldn't find a clip, but this music video pretty much is Fe as regards Caroline):


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Wow, that's quite a lot to read. It seems like I relate more to Se-Ni than Ne-Si, since I don't do well with merging theory to practical, and I'm able to fix things quite easily, like dismantling a computer without any experience. :wink: It helps a lot, but it'll take a *long* time to digest all of this, sorry. :laughing:


No worries at all, glad it was useful (I was a bit surprised by writing so much, I only seem able to write lots when asked something Im very sure about).


----------



## Immolate

Back and with an off-topic question:

@_laurie17_ This morning I checked the thread on my phone and I saw you post a response to @_alittlebear_'s thought process, how you also related to it? I seem to have lost sight of it and I can't find it??


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Back and with an off-topic question:
> 
> @_laurie17_ This morning I checked the thread on my phone and I saw you post a response to @_alittlebear_'s thought process, how you also related to it? I seem to have lost sight of it and I can't find it??





> I do relate to the thing about how you think, to an extent. The understanding bit sounds like the inference of meaning which is generally done by people through language (but in this case isn't as clear-cut) and I definitely do that.
> 
> The way my mind works seems to be: not too much going on at the forefront, but some manic activity at the back (like when you're out in a quiet area and you hear the murmur of loud talking from far away). Or, ideas switching at an incredibly fast pace at the front of my mind (imagine a sort of swirling mass of images and snapshots in a whirlwind formation, except I can see them all perfectly clearly) and I can grab specific things if I need them.
> I switch between this seemingly at random but, if I need the swirling mass of ideas for an essay or something, it's best for me to go away and either go for a walk or a shower, then the right idea will pull itself out the majority of the time (or I can try writing things out to see where it goes).


There?


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> There?


Yes, thank you 

@ElliCat also had this to say:



> Oh yes this sounds familiar. From what I can tell as Ne-aux I don't have as many ideas, and they don't come anywhere near as quickly, and the weeding-out process is much easier. But this general process is how my mind works too.



Which leads me to believe it isn't exclusively Ni. What could be Ni is @alittlebear's way of describing her process.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> (I haven't properly tried to meditate but the idea makes me really antsy and nervous. Just...can't put my finger on it, it just makes me feel really uncomfortable.
> But I do enjoy (is that the right word?) prayer, saying the rosary or whatever...which is similar to meditation I suppose...it's a difference maybe between trying to _clear_ my mind and trying to feel one thought as intensely as possible, to make it go through me).
> I'm interested in Buddhism just as a subject but the concept of anatman is really, really unsettling to me. I don't think you can mix typology and religion, but I wonder if it's more comfortable for Fe users.


Saying the rosary has gotten me through a number of difficult times. I consider it to be more along the lines of guided meditation, which I can do. I can focus intently on an image, a movement, a prayer, an idea, but I can't do the "sitting" sort of meditation where one tries to empty the mind to find wisdom.

I was similarly unsettled by particular aspect of Buddhism. I've grown to understand it better and find a great deal to learn from Buddhist teaching/practices...especially since questioning that teaching is itself a teaching. There are many different schools and I can connect better with some, such as Tibetan Buddhism. Curiously, I found a number of their practices quite similar to certain Catholic practices—such as saying the rosary.

In terms of eastern religion, I connect much more with Hinduism, but they are both rich and fascinating.

I'm just going to post this here. I forget what my results were (I suppose I'll take it again), but I remember being impressed with the test. I got an impression that the writer knew what they were talking about:

HelloQuizzy.com: The Official Branches of Buddhism Quiz


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> The part about Fi not sharing has really thrown me off because I love sharing. Or at least I think I do.


I love sharing my ideas...if I think the people I'm sharing them with will be receptive. It hurts a lot to have my ideas looked down upon as stupid or weird (in a bad way). Whether I share my passions or not often depends on my reading of the room, though I prefer to have others touch on the topic first.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Took the test. I didn't realize that there was such wisdom in Buddhism. I knew it was there, but I hadn't immersed myself even lightly in it before. 

This was my result on the test (thank you for sharing it, @fair phantom!) 



> Huayan refers to an East Asian school of Buddhism practiced primarily in China. The word Huayan literally means "Flower Garland" and refers to the school's primary text - the Avatamsaka Sutra. In addition to the Avatamsaka (Flower Garland) Sutra, the writings of the school's founder, Fazang, and its other patriarchs are also highly regarded.
> 
> 
> 
> A major teaching of Huayan Buddhism and the Avatamsaka Sutra includes the interconnectedness of all things, which is illustrated with the image of Indra's Net. Everything exists in an interwoven fabric, and onto this tapestry are embedded holographic nodes - drops of dew or jewels - from which the reflections of all things radiate. This web-like reality symbolizes the interpenetrating nature of all phenomena.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huayan is a branch of Mahayana Buddhism - the Great Vehicle. It draws heavily from the Madhyamaka (the Middle Way) logic of interconnetivity and emptiness as well as Zen and its emphasis on meditation, paradox, and seeing into the true nature of things. Therefore, Madhyamaka and Zen Buddhism may also interest you.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Saying the rosary has gotten me through a number of difficult times. I consider it to be more along the lines of guided meditation, which I can do. I can focus intently on an image, a movement, a prayer, an idea, but I can't do the "sitting" sort of meditation where one tries to empty the mind to find wisdom.
> 
> I was similarly unsettled by particular aspect of Buddhism. I've grown to understand it better and find a great deal to learn from Buddhist teaching/practices...especially since questioning that teaching is itself a teaching. There are many different schools and I can connect better with some, such as Tibetan Buddhism. Curiously, I found a number of their practices quite similar to certain Catholic practices—such as saying the rosary.
> 
> In terms of eastern religion, I connect much more with Hinduism, but they are both rich and fascinating.
> 
> I'm just going to post this here. I forget what my results were (I suppose I'll take it again), but I remember being impressed with the test. I got an impression that the writer knew what they were talking about:
> 
> HelloQuizzy.com: The Official Branches of Buddhism Quiz


Ooh, thanks for sharing) This was really interesting)
I got: Your highest score was 50% Huayan!


Huayan refers to an East Asian school of Buddhism practiced primarily in China. The word Huayan literally means "Flower Garland" and refers to the school's primary text - the Avatamsaka Sutra. In addition to the Avatamsaka (Flower Garland) Sutra, the writings of the school's founder, Fazang, and its other patriarchs are also highly regarded.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> The part about Fi not sharing has really thrown me off because I love sharing. Or at least I think I do.


 @ElliCat? I think this has thrown Curi off. She really does enjoy sharing her thoughts/feelings/opinions (I think).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> (I haven't properly tried to meditate but the idea makes me really antsy and nervous. Just...can't put my finger on it, it just makes me feel really uncomfortable.
> But I do enjoy (is that the right word?) prayer, saying the rosary or whatever...which is similar to meditation I suppose...it's a difference maybe between trying to _clear_ my mind and trying to feel one thought as intensely as possible, to make it go through me).
> I'm interested in Buddhism just as a subject but the concept of anatman is really, really unsettling to me. I don't think you can mix typology and religion, but I wonder if it's more comfortable for Fe users.


It's funny, because the questions on the test pointing to anatman - the questions about putting yourself aside by helping others (I think those were anatman ones?) were actually most appealing to me. That's what I believe in. Eliminating selfishness by serving others. 

But... The idea of losing myself to connect with the Whole is terrifying. I think we should put others first, but the thought of losing my own mind and becoming One terrifies me. (I used to think that made me Fi, actually.)


----------



## Max

To me, meditation is a waste of time. Why meditate when you can do other things to express the thoughts in your mind? More interesting, practical things? Things you can actually gain more than the understanding of your own mind from?


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## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Curiphant said:
> 
> 
> 
> The part about Fi not sharing has really thrown me off because I love sharing. Or at least I think I do.
> 
> 
> 
> I love sharing my ideas...if I think the people I'm sharing them with will be receptive. It hurts a lot to have my ideas looked down upon as stupid or weird (in a bad way). Whether I share my passions or not often depends on my reading of the room, though I prefer to have others touch on the topic first.
Click to expand...

 I agree with both of these peeps. I share, but i dont force. And when i share, its usually with those close to me that i trust with my information. I feel like others who dont get me or who have not experienced my sentiments , wont understand. .. so why bother.


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## Pressed Flowers

People don't understand me, so I usually keep my mouth shut and just nod, show that I understand them and match whatever they want to talk about. Sometimes I share a piece of my deeper thoughts and surprise / lighten people, but most the time I hold these thoughts in unless I get a real opportunity to appropriately open up and express my understanding.


----------



## cheshireperson

Maybe introverted functions are the ones you are reluctant to share (because they are subjective), such as Fi's passions, Ni's ideas? I don't know if, and how it would apply to Si and Ti though. Perhaps Si wouldn't want to share the value/experience of past experiences, regarding it as very personal? I'm not sure about this, but if it's true, it'll make determining your type somewhat easier.


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## 68097

Aww, you all are so sweet.

I share... everything. Anything. My feelings. My thoughts. My ideas (sometimes shyly; they are important to me, my stories, but I desperately want people to read my stuff and love it). I talk about the movies I love. I introduce my friends to my favorite TV shows JUST FOR THE PLEASURE OF TALKING ABOUT IT WITH THEM. I pass on music. Books. Knowledge. My faith. I think everything ought to be discussed. Shared. Passed on. Sharing it makes it ... more meaningful to me. More complete. Loving it by myself isn't enough. If I can't share it, I feel stifled. It's okay to love something on my own. I do it all the time. But when it crosses over into sharing it with someone else that I love, it becomes much more meaningful.


----------



## Dangerose

(I share things too. I really like to talk about my interests and feelings and everything. I know I'm not fully in the Fi camp, ehh, but I don't think it makes you not-Fi. Though I want to hear more about it.


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## fair phantom

@alittlebear @Oswin 

*I also got Huayan - Flower Garden School * (53%) Full results


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## 68097

(There are currently 42 users browsing this thread. 9 members and 33 guests.)

Is it wrong to laugh hysterically at the idea of these poor people slogging through 465 pages full of nonsense, just to hit the few good cognitive function posts?


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## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> (There are currently 42 users browsing this thread. 9 members and 33 guests.)
> 
> Is it wrong to laugh hysterically at the idea of these poor people slogging through 465 pages full of nonsense, just to hit the few good cognitive function posts?


Yeah... No idea how they land here. Every. Single. Day. 

Maybe the extra seventeen tonight are from your blog? Didn't you link here? They may be lurking from that.


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## Max

Guys, I am confused with the functional stacks. Doesn't an Si user need to use Se to a degree to absorb and scan the environment to compare the object to a past memory/experience which is personal to them? Wouldn't that mean an Si user would have well developed Se as well as Si, thus confusing their types? Or am I not grasping this? @angelcat @alittlebear @Oswin @fair phantom


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## Pressed Flowers

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Guys, I am confused with the functional stacks. Doesn't an Si user need to use Se to a degree to absorb and scan the environment to compare the object to a past memory/experience which is personal to them? Wouldn't that mean an Si user would have well developed Se as well as Si, thus confusing their types? Or am I not grasping this? @angelcat @alittlebear @Oswin @fair phantom


I think that an FJ can access decent Fi, an FP decent Fe, TP decent Te, TJ decent TI, SP decent Si, SJ decent Se, NJ decent Ne, NP decent Ni. 

This isn't something most agree with, though, I don't believe.


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## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Yeah... No idea how they land here. Every. Single. Day.
> 
> Maybe the extra seventeen tonight are from your blog? Didn't you link here? They may be lurking from that.


Ahhh, that's a good point.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Guys, I am confused with the functional stacks. Doesn't an Si user need to use Se to a degree to absorb and scan the environment to compare the object to a past memory/experience which is personal to them? Wouldn't that mean an Si user would have well developed Se as well as Si, thus confusing their types? Or am I not grasping this? @angelcat @alittlebear @Oswin @fair phantom


Nah. Se is investing fully in the experience of the moment, without bias (except that which is translated through Ni interpretation). Si is withdrawn from the environment, an aimless wanderer through life, an observer more than an actual participant, never fully in synch with sensory reality but desiring it. It is ... observing, and sourcing, filing, referencing, pulling what it wants from the object, in terms of personal interests/mythologies. Occasionally, we dip into our shadow functions, but not often or with any degree of skill.

Did you ever answer my earlier questions, about who you are in your most natural, ideal state? That might shed some insight on your type.


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## Persephone Soul

cheshireperson said:


> Maybe introverted functions are the ones you are reluctant to share (because they are subjective), such as Fi's passions, Ni's ideas? I don't know if, and how it would apply to Si and Ti though. Perhaps Si wouldn't want to share the value/experience of past experiences, regarding it as very personal? I'm not sure about this, but if it's true, it'll make determining your type somewhat easier.


Well that just makes sense...let me think about this....


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## Max

angelcat said:


> Ahhh, that's a good point.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. Se is investing fully in the experience of the moment, without bias (except that which is translated through Ni interpretation). Si is withdrawn from the environment, an aimless wanderer through life, an observer more than an actual participant, never fully in synch with sensory reality but desiring it. It is ... observing, and sourcing, filing, referencing, pulling what it wants from the object, in terms of personal interests/mythologies. Occasionally, we dip into our shadow functions, but not often or with any degree of skill.
> 
> Did you ever answer my earlier questions, about who you are in your most natural, ideal state? That might shed some insight on your type.


Ah, I see. So Se is objective? Se is concerned with the objective? The experiences present at the time? Entertained by outer stimuli? It wants to experience and act/do things in the present moment? 

And Si would be objective and focus on that one object? They would recall similar experiences of that object in the past? It wants to assess the object based on past experiences? And it wants to store this new experience for future use? 

And sorry, I'll answer your questions now to the best of my ability. I was busy browsing the forums and almost forgot about them:




> Who are you?


Who am I? Who is anyone? To me, no-one understands who they really are, and how they are that way. Yes, certain people have ideas of who they are, what made them that way, and who they want to be, but those are based upon self-perception. 

They are a created image, and usually nothing like how they actually portray themselves to be in person.

At the end of the day, I have came to this conclusion:

Everyone is the same. Everyone is a blank slate. Everyone is a human. Everyone is as bad as the next person. Everyone has the power in their hands to deceive people, but we're still all the same at our cores. 



> When you are at your best, what is your personality like?


When I am at my best? What does that even mean? When I am relaxed, healthy and not stressed? That statement alone has many different interpretations from different people's own understandings.

Assuming you mean "best" as relaxed, healthy and not stressed, I would best describe myself as being (in general):

Outgoing, fun, caring, explorative, humorous, quickminded, assertive, open and up for a good time.



> What do you show other people on a regular basis?


Again, a very subjective question. Assuming you don't mean my genitals (;D) and aspects of my personality, I tend to show others:

My quirkiness, kindness, logic, assertiveness, hyperactivity, adaptability, sense of humor, sensitivity, empathy and my quick mindedness. 



> What do you keep hidden from them?


My opinions of them, my far fetched ideas, my temper tantrums, my sexual fetishes. Basically my private life, but not much else. No-one needs to know another person's private life, unless they tell them, or are in danger. 



> What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?


A lot of things, actually. My innermost thoughts, complex ideas, goals/visions (don't have many), desires, fetishes, inappropriate comments/opinions and fears.

Need to ask anything else? 


@alittlebear - True. I bet if you done a cognitive functions test right now, you would have good Fi, and decent Ne, depending on how well developed your Dom/Aux functions are and your health. 

I know I can score decently in Se, and sometimes Fi. It's fun taking those tests every few months to see what "changes", and what doesn't, depending on your mood, where you are, and mental state.


----------



## orbit

@angelcat, do you have any comments on ESFPs who don't feel particularly aware of their surroundings, don't like going out, or are not artists/performers? There are a lot of stereotypes around the type and when I checked your blog, all of the ESFPs seemed very sensual and/or action-packed. 

I relate to the objectiveness of Se but only that. I don't need to see things happen.


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> All this Buddhism is giving me flashbacks to my religions class a couple of years ago. One thing they omit here is how, at least in the Japanese version, women were seen as impure and so would immediately be sent to the blood pool hell - unless they prayed to be reborn into the pure land as a man.


Wait...what? I've never heard that before.  I don't think Buddha would approve. Is that an old belief or a current one? is it like way christian scripture is misused by some to repress women or something more endemic?

ETA: now I'm remembering something...still interested in having more information. research time! (I was going to get more sleep but...:laughing


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I'm so envious right now. I struggle visualizing in details and then have a hard time "holding" to the image to describe or draw it. Also showing me how to do something (physical) does nothing I have to go through the process myself to get a grasp of it and often get too frustrated and drop it. Especially if I see someone else doing it effortlesly.
> 
> 
> I can sit still but can't clear my mind. I get bored and agitated. And focusing on my breathing just makes me more agitated.
> 
> 
> I like to interact with my ideas. If I leave idea untouched I don't like it anymore, it'll disolve eventually. _"For me, the idea becomes comfortable and then I can draw upon it, but until then I like to refrain from using it."_ This is foreign to me.
> 
> 
> * Extroverted Intuition: sometimes i just want to savour the rapturous caress of chaos x
> *
> 
> Same O: HelloQuizzy.com: Huayan - Flower Garland School Ideas of this teaching greatly appeal to my Ne.
> 
> @LuchoIsLurking tbh I always says that introverted functions are subjective.
> 
> From your long post I get lots of Fe, definitely Ne not Ni, some Ti. Definitely no Fi.


We have no idea if that thing is a learning process of certain functions or what, seeing how some Ne users related to it apparently 

It might be more of an Se-Ni axis thing though ^^

I usually get a flash of what I want but end up improvising just to throw my nuts and bolts in there 
@tine, does the image linger in your head ? That's impressive


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> We have no idea if that thing is a learning process of certain functions or what, seeing how some Ne users related to it apparently


I kind of feel that they are digging the way you metamorphized it more than how they do it. Or maybe it's Fi related. I kind of imagine Fi leaving things to sit for awhile before deciding what to do with them.

I also find it easier to write than paint since you can omit details in fact overly-detailed descriptions should be avoided. When drawing I'm usually not sure what I want until I start doing it. Like "I want to draw a ship" I might imagine various ships but won't know exact design until I start working and then usually mash best details that I imagined together. Probably end up unsatisfied because while drawing I got more ideas and now my ship is meaningless because I have something better in mind.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel I think you are Se-Ni.
> 
> As for Ti-Fe vs Fi-Te...I'm less certain, but I am inclined towards Ti-Fe, STP.


Well, that makes 8 types to discern between, that's a start. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> No worries at all, glad it was useful (I was a bit surprised by writing so much, I only seem able to write lots when asked something Im very sure about).


Oh yeah, the main problem is that it's hard to read all of that and completely digest it, maybe it's a flaw with me. :wink: I'll need to reread it a couple of times now. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> I found that me and a friend of mine (I'll loosely type him ISFP) can picture very detailed images easily, but both get frustrated trying to get it onto paper/into words (I think he finds it easier than me because he's got a very wide vocabulary and has practised art for nearly 20 years, whereas I havent drawn in about 6 years - no excuse with my vocab, I just seem to forget words all the time).
> I also find performing the task makes it easier to learn. How do you prefer to write/draw/learn?


Write. Start with vague idea and go with the flow. I'm usually not sure what I want from what I write. I might have bunch of characters, some basic plot but other than that details are born during the process.

Drawing is frustrating, I usually only draw designs that I need to show to others. Clothes/tech/commercial design. When drawing for myself I find it easiest to draw animals... I don't know exact English term here, when you drawn something or someone that is right before you? Partially because I like animals but also because of my childhood fascination with zoology I have a good understanding of anatomy of many species. Humans are way too varied and bendy with their bodies. Al-in-all drawing in largely technical to me. So it's not on the top of my hobbies. Lots of details, need a steady hand, complete concentration, many hours, and still what you end up with is worse than you can imagine.

Learn. Assuming non-physical related anything - read and discuss with others. Physical skills I avoid altogether. It frustrates me when I understand the theory behind it but my body refuses to follow a simple instructions. Some physical skills like fixing tech and assembling computers I learned by taking apart broken things and looking at how they fit together. PC one is a really easy skill tho, physically. I mean, in terms of complexity it's simpler than many Lego sets. I think I lost the point of where I was going with this.


----------



## To_august

fair phantom said:


> I'm curious...who here has tried meditation and found themselves able to do it? I mean specifically just sitting and clearing the mind, not guided or moving meditation. The INFJ does it all the time but I cannot make my mind still and clear enough; I cannot set aside all emotion. I'm wondering if that is related to cognitive functions.


The best way to achieve a calmer state of mind, that I found for myself, is to concentrate on some visual scene and play/develop this scenario further so as to be engaged in the process that is interesting enough for the mind, so it would like to explore it deeper without getting distracted by any other things.

Just sitting and clearing the mind never worked for me. The more I try to get rid of thoughts, the more intrusive they become. There's just too much stuff going on on the inside and without finding a certain foothold I struggle to turn it into single coherent stream or get rid of it completely. But wait. Isn't meditation is about focusing on one thing? Maybe it's something that I'm already doing?


----------



## owlet

fair phantom said:


> Wait...what? I've never heard that before.  I don't think Buddha would approve. Is that an old belief or a current one? is it like way christian scripture is misused by some to repress women or something more endemic?
> 
> ETA: now I'm remembering something...still interested in having more information. research time! (I was going to get more sleep but...:laughing


Haha, no it's not really strongly believed in any more. Most Japanese people, at least, will say they're not religious but follow the social/cultural customs associated with both Buddhism and Shinto (the indigenous religion of Japan) i.e. Buddhist funerals. Meditation is still practised though and there are these little rooms you can go into on the way back from work to do things like Zazen for a while and calm down after a long day.

Actually, in a lot of Shinto, women played a very large role, with priestesses being able to speak with or channel the spirits more easily. There's also the belief that women are the ones mostly possessed by kami - there are a few still around today who are supposed to be possessed by these spirits.
(The reason that sort of died out to an extent was the Confucian principles that came over from China with Buddhism and, when they did, all of them were sort of blended together for a while, so kami became Bodhisattvas etc., then there was a separation and 'Japanification' where they split Shinto and Buddhism, but it had changed the perception of both drastically.)



Greyhart said:


> I kind of feel that they are digging the way you metamorphized it more than how they do it. Or maybe it's Fi related. I kind of imagine Fi leaving things to sit for awhile before deciding what to do with them.
> 
> I also find it easier to write than paint since you can omit details in fact overly-detailed descriptions should be avoided. When drawing I'm usually not sure what I want until I start doing it. Like "I want to draw a ship" I might imagine various ships but won't know exact design until I start working and then usually mash best details that I imagined together. Probably end up unsatisfied because while drawing I got more ideas and now my ship is meaningless because I have something better in mind.


I actually have a similar thing with drawing, where I find it difficult to draw something like 'a ship'. I tend to just doodle things, because then they can alter as I draw them without being restricted by the idea of 'a ship' being a specific thing. I also find writing much easier and more natural, though.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Curiphant said:


> does the image linger in your head ? That's impressive


Yeah it's kind of strange. Am image is built in my head with bits and pieces I see and then I can recall the picture repeatedly. I think it's not impressive, just another way of thinking haha, but thanks!


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Oh yeah, the main problem is that it's hard to read all of that and completely digest it, maybe it's a flaw with me. :wink: I'll need to reread it a couple of times now. :laughing:


I think it's a lot to read and stuff so dont worry, I was a worried if it came across weirdly or not...


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I think it's a lot to read and stuff so dont worry, I was a worried if it came across weirdly or not...


Eh, don't worry, it's rather easy to understand piece by piece. :tongue: I've just been distracted for a while with rewatching one of the best animated series ever. :laughing:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> Write. Start with vague idea and go with the flow. I'm usually not sure what I want from what I write. I might have bunch of characters, some basic plot but other than that details are born during the process.
> *Ah so more similar to my sister, probably Ne? Do you like the plan a it before or prefer just to go?
> *
> Drawing is frustrating, I usually only draw designs that I need to show to others. Clothes/tech/commercial design. When drawing for myself I find it easiest to draw animals... I don't know exact English term here, when you drawn something or someone that is right before you? Partially because I like animals but also because of my childhood fascination with zoology I have a good understanding of anatomy of many species. Humans are way too varied and bendy with their bodies. Al-in-all drawing in largely technical to me. So it's not on the top of my hobbies. Lots of details, need a steady hand, complete concentration, many hours, and still what you end up with is worse than you can imagine.
> *Ah now thats similar to me, I do like to do a kind of ''still life'' thing with art. Do you find you alter them slightly as you draw them? (I was drawing a bee, noticed it looked kind of evil and then drew an evil bee in a top hat with a sabre).*
> *I agree it can have very disappointing results, but I find it nice to be absorbed into an activity like that that requires a large amount of concentration for me. Do you like that with hobbies?*
> 
> Learn. Assuming non-physical related anything - read and discuss with others. Physical skills I avoid altogether. It frustrates me when I understand the theory behind it but my body refuses to follow a simple instructions. Some physical skills like fixing tech and assembling computers I learned by taking apart broken things and looking at how they fit together. PC one is a really easy skill tho, physically. I mean, in terms of complexity it's simpler than many Lego sets. I think I lost the point of where I was going with this.
> *Ahh very interesting and more similar to my sister again. Do you need to discuss it? I find friends always want to meet up for revision but when I do I sit there and silently work for hours and find it hard to talk about because its not yet sorted out in my head. Do you find it helps you clear things up? Oh lego can be hard!*


Replied in bold.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Eh, don't worry, it's rather easy to understand piece by piece. :tongue: I've just been distracted for a while with rewatching one of the best animated series ever. :laughing:


Do tell?


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Do tell?






























Sometimes I wonder how much money the creators pour into this series. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> Replied in bold.





> Ah so more similar to my sister, probably Ne? Do you like the plan a it before or prefer just to go?


If I start making detailed plan I actually might (and often do) end up burning out of the idea before I make it happen. I'm excited by the idea of what could I do with plot and characters, where could it lead me? So basically, NO PLANNING!



> Ah now thats similar to me, I do like to do a kind of ''still life'' thing with art. Do you find you alter them slightly as you draw them? (I was drawing a bee, noticed it looked kind of evil and then drew an evil bee in a top hat with a sabre).


I just try to be as close to what I see as I can. Animals are also asshats that don't sit still. So you have only brief period where you can sketch basics and then I just start fixing drawing according to how anatomy and physics should work ("Leg can't bend that way", "This material does this").



> I agree it can have very disappointing results, but I find it nice to be absorbed into an activity like that that requires a large amount of concentration for me. Do you like that with hobbies?


You mean _"activity like that that requires a large amount of concentration"_? Nope, I am pseudo-ADHD, I love to multitask. I don't drawn of write or anything without music or some show/movie on the background. Sudoku takes too long for me because I keep switching my focus to whatever I am "watching" and lose a track of the numbers. Well, I do get engrossed in something to the point where I don't notice anything but I don't purposely pick hobbies that require it. In general if it takes a lot of concentration (idk... beads? Modeling. As in "putting miniature models of something together") I probably will avoid it.



> Ahh very interesting and more similar to my sister again. Do you need to discuss it? I find friends always want to meet up for revision but when I do I sit there and silently work for hours and find it hard to talk about because its not yet sorted out in my head. Do you find it helps you clear things up? Oh lego can be hard!


Don't _need_ to but *love* to. I however lose my drive if I don't get any feedback so just talking at someone without the other person participating is boring to me. Does it help me to clear my ideas and theories? Hell, yeah. Outside perspective is awesome. My ENTJ cousin is especially good at squishing the bugs out of my theories forcing me to pay more attention to what I work with.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Sometimes I wonder how much money the creators pour into this series. :laughing:


Now I understand!!


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Now I understand!!


Oh, have I converted you to the Ufotable religion? :wink:

Actually, the latter two gifs are from one of the better moments of the second season, where Gae Bolg, a spear which always pierces the heart, faces Rho Aias, the shield which stopped Hector's spear from the Trojan War. (you historical buffs will really like this. :wink :laughing:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> If I start making detailed plan I actually might (and often do) end up burning out of the idea before I make it happen. I'm excited by the idea of what could I do with plot and characters, where could it lead me? So basically, NO PLANNING!
> *I think this is definitely supposed to be an Ne thing - ideas need to be explored but not over and over?*
> 
> I just try to be as close to what I see as I can. Animals are also asshats that don't sit still. So you have only brief period where you can sketch basics and then I just start fixing drawing according to how anatomy and physics should work ("Leg can't bend that way", "This material does this").
> *Very true! I tend to take pictures because of that, but then you can catch them in unnatural positions!** How do you do that without making a mental image?*
> 
> You mean _"activity like that that requires a large amount of concentration"_? Nope, I am pseudo-ADHD, I love to multitask. I don't drawn of write or anything without music or some show/movie on the background. Sudoku takes too long for me because I keep switching my focus to whatever I am "watching" and lose a track of the numbers. Well, I do get engrossed in something to the point where I don't notice anything but I don't purposely pick hobbies that require it. In general if it takes a lot of concentration (idk... beads? Modeling. As in "putting miniature models of something together") I probably will avoid it.
> *That's impressive! I find it hard to do things properly all at the same time. Do you think its maybe Ne V Ni? I love things that absorb me like making models and detail drawings etc, which might be Ni? Whereas you get absorbed by chance?*
> 
> Don't _need_ to but *love* to. I however lose my drive if I don't get any feedback so just talking at someone without the other person participating is boring to me. Does it help me to clear my ideas and theories? Hell, yeah. Outside perspective is awesome. My ENTJ cousin is especially good at squishing the bugs out of my theories forcing me to pay more attention to what I work with.
> *That's pretty interesting, as my sister tends to come up with ideas and then like to go over them with me (which allows me to try and question them/tear them apart and so makes them more water tight). Do you think it matters who you talk to?*


Replied in bold again!


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Oh, have I converted you to the Ufotable religion? :wink:
> 
> Actually, the latter two gifs are from one of the better moments of the second season, where Gae Bolg, a spear which always pierces the heart, faces Rho Aias, the shield which stopped Hector's spear from the Trojan War. (you historical buffs will really like this. :wink :laughing:


I've been meaning to watch it for a while, but not got round to it yet! It's supposed to be very good. I'm currently about to watch Firefly for the first time so haven't had any time for anime which makes me sad!


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I've been meaning to watch it for a while, but not got round to it yet! It's supposed to be very good. I'm currently about to watch Firefly for the first time so haven't had any time for anime which makes me sad!


Well, in 3 or so weeks it's gonna be finished with the airing, so you may want to just wait. _Buuuut_, you would miss out on it for three weeks, which is a shame. :wink: Huh, Firefly, never watched that one, even though it seems like a good show.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@tine What's Firefly about? I've seen some references to it on Tumblr, but not many.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @tine What's Firefly about? I've seen some references to it on Tumblr, but not many.


Ensemble cast, think Avengers but more... low key and two faced?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Well, in 3 or so weeks it's gonna be finished with the airing, so you may want to just wait. _Buuuut_, you would miss out on it for three weeks, which is a shame. :wink: Huh, Firefly, never watched that one, even though it seems like a good show.


Ahh I'll check it out when its done I think, I like completed series! I havent seen it yet, but my friend lent me it and Serenity.



alittlebear said:


> @_tine_ What's Firefly about? I've seen some references to it on Tumblr, but not many.


It's said on IMDb to be:
Five hundred years in the future, a renegade crew aboard a small spacecraft tries to survive as they travel the unknown parts of the galaxy and evade warring factions as well as authority agents out to get them.


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> Replied in bold again!





> I think this is definitely supposed to be an Ne thing - ideas need to be explored but not over and over?


Coming back to refine idea... I do it sometimes but there's a point where idea stops being interesting because of revisiting.



> Very true! I tend to take pictures because of that, but then you can catch them in unnatural positions! How do you do that without making a mental image?


Refine what I drew? Well, I remember how animal sat and after it moves I just continue checking my memory _but_ for the most part I use logic to figure out how it should go to look realistic. Often I stop checking against memory because I find myself unable to repeat something on paper so I just change it so it still looks "correct" but is easier to draw.



> That's impressive! I find it hard to do things properly all at the same time. Do you think its maybe Ne V Ni? I love things that absorb me like making models and detail drawings etc, which might be Ni? Whereas you get absorbed by chance?


Maybe extroversion vs introversion too? But yeah I get absorbed randomly.



> That's pretty interesting, as my sister tends to come up with ideas and then like to go over them with me (which allows me to try and question them/tear them apart and so makes them more water tight). *Do you think it matters who you talk to?*


Feedback depends on whom I talk to, of course. I can't expect my cousin's instant dismantling from my mother, she's really good at encouraging, though. INFP bff loves to drop in new "nuggets" of ideas. ENFJ and ISFJ friend both attempt to clarify what I present to them although in different ways. ISFJ friend almost always notices if I my idea was riffled from some pop culture franchise. :blushed: OK, I realized I started going into writing about entire friends and extended family cast.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Ahh I'll check it out when its done I think, I like completed series! I havent seen it yet, but my friend lent me it and Serenity.


Yeah, there's a certain dismay whenever a new episode comes out and I finish it. :dry: Though I have a penchant for rewatching episodes I like, so there's that. :laughing: Speaking of which, have you heard of _Psycho-Pass_? Another great series that I also recommended to @shinynotshiny.

I hear _Firefly_ and _Serenity_ are both cool, though I really haven't watched either. :tongue: I'm thinking of watching _Serenity_ just for the Operative, he's pretty awesome in an evil way. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @tine What's Firefly about? I've seen some references to it on Tumblr, but not many.


Every geek is obliged to lament its cancellation at least once a week.


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Ah, I see. So Se is objective? Se is concerned with the objective? The experiences present at the time? Entertained by outer stimuli? It wants to experience and act/do things in the present moment?
> 
> And Si would be objective and focus on that one object? They would recall similar experiences of that object in the past? It wants to assess the object based on past experiences? And it wants to store this new experience for future use?


Yes on the first. Do you identify with that?

Yes, on the second. It's not something we consciously do as Si-users, we just do it. Record it, file it for later use, compare it to what we've seen before. I don't know that it "wants" to do it, it just does it.



> Who am I? Who is anyone? To me, no-one understands who they really are, and how they are that way. Yes, certain people have ideas of who they are, what made them that way, and who they want to be, but those are based upon self-perception. They are a created image, and usually nothing like how they actually portray themselves to be in person.


Ti.



> At the end of the day, I have came to this conclusion:
> 
> Everyone is the same. Everyone is a blank slate. Everyone is a human. Everyone is as bad as the next person. Everyone has the power in their hands to deceive people, but we're still all the same at our cores.


Fe.



> When I am at my best? What does that even mean? When I am relaxed, healthy and not stressed? That statement alone has many different interpretations from different people's own understandings.
> 
> Assuming you mean "best" as relaxed, healthy and not stressed, I would best describe myself as being (in general):
> 
> Outgoing, fun, caring, explorative, humorous, quickminded, assertive, open and up for a good time.


Over-thinking a question. Ti. Not quick to assume and respond, but taking things at face value seems more Sensor inclined than anything. 



> Again, a very subjective question. Assuming you don't mean my genitals (;D) and aspects of my personality, I tend to show others:
> 
> My quirkiness, kindness, logic, assertiveness, hyperactivity, adaptability, sense of humor, sensitivity, empathy and my quick mindedness.


This speaks to ESTP to me, but if you don't identify with Se...



> My opinions of them, my far fetched ideas, my temper tantrums, my sexual fetishes. Basically my private life, but not much else. No-one needs to know another person's private life, unless they tell them, or are in danger. A lot of things, actually. My innermost thoughts, complex ideas, goals/visions (don't have many), desires, fetishes, inappropriate comments/opinions and fears.


More Fe, feels like.

Do you Se or Si? If Se, ESTP. If Si, ESFJ.



Curiphant said:


> @angelcat, do you have any comments on ESFPs who don't feel particularly aware of their surroundings, don't like going out, or are not artists/performers? There are a lot of stereotypes around the type and when I checked your blog, all of the ESFPs seemed very sensual and/or action-packed.
> 
> I relate to the objectiveness of Se but only that. I don't need to see things happen.


I've known two. One of them was the worst driver I've ever met in my life. She was so oblivious to her surroundings that she crashed three cars in six months. Yet, she continued to own BMW's because they are "the best" and "status symbols." She always wanted hard evidence to back up her arguments, too. I couldn't just feed her generalities; I'd have to pull out my history book, find the page reference, send her the full quote and source. But she was quite social and open to most things. Not really the center of attention but she liked to talk.

The other one is my sister. She moves around a lot, gets new jobs a lot, gets new boyfriends a lot, whenever she gets bored. Has no problem fitting into a new place and making friends, but she doesn't set herself up to be the center of attention or perform. She really just wants to be an artist and sell her stuff.


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> Yes on the first. Do you identify with that?
> 
> Yes, on the second. It's not something we consciously do as Si-users, we just do it. Record it, file it for later use, compare it to what we've seen before. I don't know that it "wants" to do it, it just does it.
> 
> 
> 
> Ti.
> 
> 
> 
> Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> Over-thinking a question. Ti. Not quick to assume and respond, but taking things at face value seems more Sensor inclined than anything.
> 
> 
> 
> This speaks to ESTP to me, but if you don't identify with Se...
> 
> 
> 
> More Fe, feels like.
> 
> Do you Se or Si? If Se, ESTP. If Si, ESFJ.
> 
> 
> 
> I've known two. One of them was the worst driver I've ever met in my life. She was so oblivious to her surroundings that she crashed three cars in six months. Yet, she continued to own BMW's because they are "the best" and "status symbols." She always wanted hard evidence to back up her arguments, too. I couldn't just feed her generalities; I'd have to pull out my history book, find the page reference, send her the full quote and source. But she was quite social and open to most things. Not really the center of attention but she liked to talk.
> 
> The other one is my sister. She moves around a lot, gets new jobs a lot, gets new boyfriends a lot, whenever she gets bored. Has no problem fitting into a new place and making friends, but she doesn't set herself up to be the center of attention or perform. She really just wants to be an artist and sell her stuff.


Thank you ^^

I can't say I relate to any of those descriptions very much, hm. I want to stay in my hometown for my college because it's cheap and a good education. I don't think I could crash my car three times without feeling like I'm wasting my time or it's not worth it. Name brands make me uncomfortable sometimes because I feel like you overpay for them. 

I'm fine with generalities I think but I get annoyed with people who claim they understand what I'm feeling without any actual empathesizing and sharing over feeling but that's probably with Fi. 

Reflecting on the Fi thing, I've realized that while I do like to talk and discuss things, it has always been on a shallow level to my friends. I have friends, but nobody I'm particularly close to. Just people I talk to. I don't like telling them what I'm doing unless it's related to school. I never am in the center of attention even with my constant blabbering. I don't ever hang out with people outside of classes. My friends are more like peers and acquaintances.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

I only saw the last couple pages, but I'm guessing we confirmed alittlebear's Ni some more and talked about stuff.



angelcat said:


> I understand. I've been there. Recently, in fact.
> 
> Who are you? When you are at your best, what is your personality like? What do you show other people on a regular basis? What do you keep hidden from them? What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?
> 
> What do you want to do with your life? What are your two most defining traits?


Huh, I like this. It's like a little condensed personality questionnaire. Can we actually fill it out (though I think most of my answers would just be "I don't know", or "I'd rather not say"...)


----------



## 68097

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Huh, I like this. It's like a little condensed personality questionnaire. Can we actually fill it out (though I think most of my answers would just be "I don't know", or "I'd rather not say"...)


If you want, but you're not allowed to say I don't know.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Okay, so this isn't the best...the fact that I was reading angelcat's response to the latest SJ thread in the Myers-Briggs forum and that kind of made me think that I am indeed your average, stereotypical SJ might not have helped either. But then again, neither would overthinking the questions.



> Who are you?


Um, a person? I'd be saying I don't know if I was allowed but lately my self-perception is so messed up I'm not sure if I want to risk that. These days I'm just kind of a person who exists. 



> When you are at your best, what is your personality like?


God, I don't remember....lots of interests, good at remembering things, still pretty solitary but not actually lonely...that's all I can think of right now. 



> What do you show other people on a regular basis? What do you keep hidden from them?


Show: Serious, polite yet probably stand-offish. Apparently quite nice and likeable though I honestly don't know how that happened.

Hide: Most everything else. The only place anything that resembles a personality or mental life comes out is online and even that's not the best representation. 



> What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?


Most thoughts beyond simple answers to questions. It's like my mind shuts off and I can't access anything, so I just try to get out of the conversation however I can. I find I have similar responses regarding sharing personal preferences, but that's more of a shame thing.



> What do you want to do with your life? What are your two most defining traits?


1) Something important. Something that makes a difference or demonstrates some kind of value. Feels like a pipe dream these days.

2) What counts as a trait? Off the top of my head I'd say my writing style, and my weird fixation on intelligence and the mind. Yeah, not much there.


----------



## Greyhart

*avoiding my responsibilities like a boss*



ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I only saw the last couple pages, but I'm guessing we confirmed alittlebear's Ni some more and talked about stuff.
> 
> Huh, I like this. It's like a little condensed personality questionnaire. Can we actually fill it out (though I think most of my answers would just be "I don't know", or "I'd rather not say"...)


Let's do it



angelcat said:


> I understand. I've been there. Recently, in fact.
> 
> Who are you? When you are at your best, what is your personality like? What do you show other people on a regular basis? What do you keep hidden from them? What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?
> 
> What do you want to do with your life? What are your two most defining traits?


*Who are you?*
Carbon-based life form. Randomly generated number that gained sentience. Young female of my species. If going philosophical, I am my mind. I don't see a need to strongly define my "self" since I am all I have, I'll never be anything else. My mind is what I am.

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
Curious, optimistic, quick with my thinking, easily adaptable to challenges, moderately diplomatic, funny. I could go for so, so long with this. So long.

*What do you show other people on a regular basis?*
Everything, expect for what I hide. Well, and some ideas that are too unformed or old to be interesting to discuss.

Humor. A lot. I talk about problems and finding solutions to them often. Opinions. Ideas. I like to share what comes to my mind. I like to discuss wild plot bunnies and unsubstantiated theories I have. Some stuff I don't bring up (often at least) because it's inappropriate or upsetting for others. That being said, if I think I can get away with it I like to make people gasp and blush.

*What do you keep hidden from them?*
_"Just because I understand, doesn't mean I care."_ - judgement assholeness and coldness that I experience inside. I try to hide and control my anger around my close ones since I do not want to hurt them with what amounts for a minute hormonal tantrum. I'm not very good at control, though.

For more personal, pain, fear, uncertainty. Not so much because I'm ashamed to share it but because for most of it talking doesn't make it go away and I dislike being bombarded with pity. I prefer to deal with those feelings by ignoring them until they go away. Guess how well that works 

I also never cry if strangers are present. Not sure why it happened, but for as long as I can remember (and my earliest memories are from before I was one year old) I couldn't stand idea of showing such weakness for the world to see. "I must project image of strength if I am to survive." likely born from growing up in poverty and extremely turmoiled family. So no matter how physically or emotionally hurt I am I do no allow myself to cry until I am alone or in company of family and very close friends.

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
For this question my mind is already tainted with Jung stuff, so I say _Ne_. I didn't have a word for it for the most of my life. Perception of the world, why some things that seem attractive to others pass by me unnoticed, and others become something that they aren't and absorb me for days. Trying to explain it draws reaction ranging from "Wow, keep going" to "Stop this nonsense". I don't stop sharing it in hopes that I'll find people that experience it too or at least appreciate and don't outright dismiss it.


----------



## Arrow

laurie17 said:


> Also, would you say the last point is showing the internal vs external atmosphere focus of Fi vs Fe?


I think it shows what the type prioritizes. Fe feels engaged to the feelings of others to focus themselves on and merge with to bring determinations about what the collective understands. Fi needs to feel something internally in order to be moved. Fe likes it when everyone is on the same page and everyone is collectively together, involved and feeling the same way. Fi will shrink away from that environment to find what it feels is personally true to itself, with little to no need to connect its feelings to the group in order to satisfy its understanding to itself.


----------



## 68097

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Okay, so this isn't the best...the fact that I was reading angelcat's response to the latest SJ thread in the Myers-Briggs forum and that kind of made me think that I am indeed your average, stereotypical SJ might not have helped either. But then again, neither would overthinking the questions.


This makes me sad. I feel like you have very low self-esteem and are ashamed of who you are, and no one should ever feel that way. I get it, because my self-esteem isn't all that great either, but ... we sell ourselves short too much. We are our own worst critic. You're more special and lovelier than you realize.



> Um, a person? I'd be saying I don't know if I was allowed but lately my self-perception is so messed up I'm not sure if I want to risk that. These days I'm just kind of a person who exists.


Oh, I'm sure there's more to you than that. 



> God, I don't remember....lots of interests, good at remembering things, still pretty solitary but not actually lonely...that's all I can think of right now.


Iiiiintrovert. Heh.



> Show: Serious, polite yet probably stand-offish. Apparently quite nice and likeable though I honestly don't know how that happened. Hide: Most everything else. The only place anything that resembles a personality or mental life comes out is online and even that's not the best representation.


Why do you hide things?



> Most thoughts beyond simple answers to questions. It's like my mind shuts off and I can't access anything, so I just try to get out of the conversation however I can. I find I have similar responses regarding sharing personal preferences, but that's more of a shame thing.


Why do forming complicated answers frustrate you?



> Something important. Something that makes a difference or demonstrates some kind of value. Feels like a pipe dream these days. What counts as a trait? Off the top of my head I'd say my writing style, and my weird fixation on intelligence and the mind. Yeah, not much there.


What is your writing style like?

I'll answer it for myself.

*Who are you?*

An animal-loving greenie hippie historical-and-fantasy-writer literary snob, who spends a good deal of her time sweet talking cats, arguing on internet forums, trying to explain personality typing to people, and in reading biographical works. A Sherlockian Whovian geek with a massive costume drama collection who can throw movie quotes back at you without a second thought but can't remember where she put her keys. Oh, yeah. In their place. So I can find them later. An amateur historian who hates Philippa Gregory novels and moans about historical revisionism, who can be quite quarrelsome in defending long-dead people. Slightly neurotic, a perfectionist, and a chronic doer, who can't just do nothing. Ever.

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*

At my best, meaning no stress and no one is fighting with me, I'm a sarcastic smart-ass who keeps everyone in stitches and has a unique way of viewing the world. I'm good natured, laid back, and sweet.

*What do you show other people on a regular basis?*

They see my analytical nature, my kindness to animals and people, my weird quirks (like not eating tomato seeds), and my rather morbid sense of humor. They see my passion for various cases, my anger over injustices, and my fierce guardianship of my faith.

*What do you keep hidden from them?*

My more judgmental thoughts, my depression, and some of my twisted ideas, because ... they wouldn't like it.

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*

What I ACTUALLY MEAN. Sometimes I am trying to say something, and I can't seem to make others understand what I mean. When they ask me what my mind looks like inside, I can't answer that. I can't always explain why I love things, or hate them, either. I just do.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

angelcat said:


> This makes me sad. I feel like you have very low self-esteem and are ashamed of who you are, and no one should ever feel that way. I get it, because my self-esteem isn't all that great either, but ... we sell ourselves short too much. We are our own worst critic. You're more special and lovelier than you realize.


And now for some reason I'm regretting writing it - though I guess it was like a warning that my answers wouldn't be that great. And I do constantly compare myself with others which indeed results in my not being enormously proud of who I am, yes.



> Oh, I'm sure there's more to you than that.


See, I'm reading your version and thinking "_How!?_ How does a person get to the point where they can say all that stuff about themselves? I never know how to describe myself and see myself as terribly boring."

One big problem is I don't go very deep into things. I don't have a lot of information to share about any so-called "interest", just experiences and thoughts and ideas that I tend to think aren't even very good. So I guess I can't put down anything I'm interested in or like since all that really means is "I like to think and read about this", rather than "I would love to discuss this for hours!", which I think is what most people mean by interest.




> Iiiiintrovert. Heh.


The one thing I'm certain of! It took me almost 20 years to develop an interest in people, which is a problem because my natural response is to separate myself. I shoot down small-talk with brief answers and generally regard roommates, classmates, and coworkers like living furniture. They're just....there. I'm nice and all, politeness and kindness come naturally to me, but I don't think of them much unless they engage me first. So now that I'd actually like to learn how to converse and such, I have no idea what to do and see myself as having nothing contribute. So that's a thing.




> Why do you hide things?


Shame, I guess? Fear of rejection, of being made fun of, or questioned too far until I won't be able to explain myself anymore, then looking stupid.

Also just because I'm not entirely certain of what or who I even am, resulting in a feeling like there's nothing _to_ show. Which sucks because it really feels like no one else has this problem, not to this extent. 



> Why do forming complicated answers frustrate you?


I thought I answered that - I can't think of anything to say. At most, I can think of things, and promptly censor myself, decide, "Nope, can't say that, or that, so that leaves me with....no responses. Damn. Question evading time!" 

Yet all this happens so fast that as far as I can tell, I really have no thoughts on the matter, whatever it is.

No wonder I'm so confused.



> What is your writing style like?


I write more or less the way I think, and people seem to like it (I've had about 4 people on PerC say I should write a novel). According to some thread I saw ages ago, the way I choose words is pure Sensation: I go by sound. I seem to have an almost innate sense of whether or not words sound right together, and a pretty loud inner monologue that just...flows. The result is an ability to write "quickly and coherently", and sounding relatively erudite. Unfortunately online, this means I write a lot, trying to get all the details out.

I'd provide an example but I don't really have any that aren't crazy-posts from PerC. I mean, essays and stuff in school I just wrote rather stream-of-consciousness, edited a little, handed in, and got an A, I never thought much of them.


----------



## Greyhart

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> And now for some reason I'm regretting writing it - though I guess it was like a warning that my answers wouldn't be that great.


Don't regret. It's all good.


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> Yes on the first. Do you identify with that?
> 
> Yes, on the second. It's not something we consciously do as Si-users, we just do it. Record it, file it for later use, compare it to what we've seen before. I don't know that it "wants" to do it, it just does it.


Yes. I can do this, especially with faces and places. And songs and movies, but the main problem I have with Si is the whole "action of the moment thing". Yes. I am great at comparing things to past experiences stored inside my mind, and at recording things for future use, but I also see myself acting in the moment sometimes. Just doing things to get them done/exploring things. It doesn't take me long to tune into/get used to what is infront of me sometimes. 



> Over-thinking a question. Ti. Not quick to assume and respond, but taking things at face value seems more Sensor inclined than anything.


Sometimes I do this to a ridiculous extent. Especially under stress. Especially if I want answers, but know I can't get them for a while. I tend to overthink ridiculous circumstances, or upcoming events, especially ones a week away. Sometimes I imagine the scenario in my head before it happens.





> Do you Se or Si? If Se, ESTP. If Si, ESFJ.


That's what I'm trying to figure out here. Thanks for your responses. I thought I used Fe and Ti, but I wasn't sure. 

I know this sounds cliche, and it can't happen (you can't use both sensing functions subconsciously at once/one after another), but I either use a bastardized version of Se/Si, or am having trouble differentiating between them both.


----------



## ElliCat

I want to play!

*Who are you? *
A bundle of contradictions and fairy dust trapped inside a clumsy, malfunctioning case of flesh. 

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
Compassionate, creative, open-minded. Sees the best in people. Artistic and unafraid to show it. Gives good advice to those who ask for it.

I'm... not quite there yet. But I'm working on it.

*What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
Strangers: A cold, stony front, with an occasional shy smile.

Acquaintances/distant relatives: Politeness and a few more smiles.

Intimates: More extreme mood swings. Kindness, stupid jokes, conversations about anything and everything, followed by tears and sulking and frustrated broken sentences.

*What do you keep hidden from them? *
Most of what goes on inside my head. Most of my feelings. The few creative things I still produce. How much I doubt myself and beat myself up over things. How much I do to avoid hurting other people, and my frustration when I still can't avoid it and I don't know why.

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
A lot! I have a much bigger vocabulary when I write than when I speak, so I often find it hard to find the right words even when describing basic stuff. It's worse when I'm in an argument or a debate and I feel like I'm under pressure to explain and/or defend myself quickly. Then my head is so full of feelings and taking in how the other person is acting and beating myself up over my stupidity and trying to figure out a plan that it just overheats and shuts down on me. XD

*What do you want to do with your life? *
Become the best version of myself that I be. Improve the lives of the people around me. See and understand all the things that catch my interest. Know that no matter how crazy the rest of the world is or becomes, I never gave in.

*What are your two most defining traits?*
 I don't even know.



Greyhart said:


> Like "I want to draw a ship" I might imagine various ships but won't know exact design until I start working and then usually mash best details that I imagined together. Probably end up unsatisfied because while drawing I got more ideas and now my ship is meaningless because I have something better in mind.


Oh that kind of sounds like how I cook. If I don't know how to make something I look up like 10 different versions of the recipe online and then I follow none of them. Instead I kind of combine all the bits that I like to make some easier version for myself. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it really doesn't!



ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> One big problem is I don't go very deep into things. I don't have a lot of information to share about any so-called "interest", just experiences and thoughts and ideas that I tend to think aren't even very good. So I guess I can't put down anything I'm interested in or like since all that really means is "I like to think and read about this", rather than "I would love to discuss this for hours!", which I think is what most people mean by interest.


No "interest" for me is also "I like to think and read about this". I like to discuss it if other people are also interested in it, but sometimes it's hard to find people like that. So I can relate to this too.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> Coming back to refine idea... I do it sometimes but there's a point where idea stops being interesting because of revisiting.
> *Yeah I think it's the lessening of depth i the idea maybe?*
> 
> Refine what I drew? Well, I remember how animal sat and after it moves I just continue checking my memory _but_ for the most part I use logic to figure out how it should go to look realistic. Often I stop checking against memory because I find myself unable to repeat something on paper so I just change it so it still looks "correct" but is easier to draw.
> *ahh so it's kind of a mental image too?*
> 
> Maybe extroversion vs introversion too? But yeah I get absorbed randomly.
> *Very true, I think extroverted functions are more likely to seek more things?*
> 
> Feedback depends on whom I talk to, of course. I can't expect my cousin's instant dismantling from my mother, she's really good at encouraging, though. INFP bff loves to drop in new "nuggets" of ideas. ENFJ and ISFJ friend both attempt to clarify what I present to them although in different ways. ISFJ friend almost always notices if I my idea was riffled from some pop culture franchise. :blushed: OK, I realized I started going into writing about entire friends and extended family cast.
> *It's good you have so many people you can get input from! My sister tries to get input on her writing but a lot of friends wont give her proper criticisms (only me and maybe one or two others).*





Barakiel said:


> Yeah, there's a certain dismay whenever a new episode comes out and I finish it. :dry: Though I have a penchant for rewatching episodes I like, so there's that. :laughing: Speaking of which, have you heard of _Psycho-Pass_? Another great series that I also recommended to @_shinynotshiny_.
> 
> I hear _Firefly_ and _Serenity_ are both cool, though I really haven't watched either. :tongue: I'm thinking of watching _Serenity_ just for the Operative, he's pretty awesome in an evil way. :laughing:


I heard of PP but havent seen it. Have you and if so what do you think? Yeah might as well give it a look, I'll let you know if FF is any good (Im sure it will be).



Greyhart said:


> Every geek is obliged to lament its cancellation at least once a week.


I had to lament even without watching it...


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I heard of PP but havent seen it. Have you and if so what do you think? Yeah might as well give it a look, I'll let you know if FF is any good (Im sure it will be).


If you've heard of _Ghost in the Shell_, it's by the same people who made that, and it looks *amaaazing*, even without going into the plot, which merges deconstruction and sci-fi. Frankly, it's brilliant, though I think I've been spoiled by Ufotable, as it doesn't look as good as the gifs I posted. Frankly though, nothing really does. :tongue: Also, the music, oh my god, the music. :kitteh:

Basically, think _Evangelion_ + some random cop show like Law and Order or NCIS. Albeit with more awesomeness from the main characters than Eva ever had. :wink:


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Greyhart said:


> Don't regret. It's all good.


And you said it with a Warehouse 13 gif? Awesome.

<3


----------



## Persephone Soul

ElliCat said:


> I want to play!
> 
> *Who are you? *
> A bundle of contradictions and fairy dust trapped inside a clumsy, malfunctioning case of flesh.
> 
> *When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
> Compassionate, creative, open-minded. Sees the best in people. Artistic and unafraid to show it. Gives good advice to those who ask for it.
> 
> I'm... not quite there yet. But I'm working on it.
> 
> *What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
> Strangers: A cold, stony front, with an occasional shy smile.
> 
> Acquaintances/distant relatives: Politeness and a few more smiles.
> 
> Intimates: More extreme mood swings. Kindness, stupid jokes, conversations about anything and everything, followed by tears and sulking and frustrated broken sentences.
> 
> *What do you keep hidden from them? *
> Most of what goes on inside my head. Most of my feelings. The few creative things I still produce. How much I doubt myself and beat myself up over things. How much I do to avoid hurting other people, and my frustration when I still can't avoid it and I don't know why.
> 
> *What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
> A lot! I have a much bigger vocabulary when I write than when I speak, so I often find it hard to find the right words even when describing basic stuff. It's worse when I'm in an argument or a debate and I feel like I'm under pressure to explain and/or defend myself quickly. Then my head is so full of feelings and taking in how the other person is acting and beating myself up over my stupidity and trying to figure out a plan that it just overheats and shuts down on me. XD
> 
> *What do you want to do with your life? *
> Become the best version of myself that I be. Improve the lives of the people around me. See and understand all the things that catch my interest. Know that no matter how crazy the rest of the world is or becomes, I never gave in.
> 
> *What are your two most defining traits?*
> I don't even know.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like "I want to draw a ship" I might imagine various ships but won't know exact design until I start working and then usually mash best details that I imagined together. Probably end up unsatisfied because while drawing I got more ideas and now my ship is meaningless because I have something better in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh that kind of sounds like how I cook. If I don't know how to make something I look up like 10 different versions of the recipe online and then I follow none of them. Instead I kind of combine all the bits that I like to make some easier version for myself. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it really doesn't!
> 
> 
> 
> ScientiaOmnisEst said:
> 
> 
> 
> One big problem is I don't go very deep into things. I don't have a lot of information to share about any so-called "interest", just experiences and thoughts and ideas that I tend to think aren't even very good. So I guess I can't put down anything I'm interested in or like since all that really means is "I like to think and read about this", rather than "I would love to discuss this for hours!", which I think is what most people mean by interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No "interest" for me is also "I like to think and read about this". I like to discuss it if other people are also interested in it, but sometimes it's hard to find people like that. So I can relate to this too.
Click to expand...

This whole thing is ME! Except, I am actually BETTER at the verbal word. My mouth can keep up with my brain better than my hands, yet I get exhausted from talking sometimes as well. But I still prefer it. It's more tiring but yet, easier. I would love to be able to write it all down, but I just miss SO much. I get so frustrated with writing. 

Oh an the cooking thing. I will look up ten different ways to cook something, and I will choose the one that is easiest and gets it done fastest. And I never skip steps. I follow to a T.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> If you've heard of _Ghost in the Shell_, it's by the same people who made that, and it looks *amaaazing*, even without going into the plot, which merges deconstruction and sci-fi. Frankly, it's brilliant, though I think I've been spoiled by Ufotable, as it doesn't look as good as the gifs I posted. Frankly though, nothing really does. :tongue: Also, the music, oh my god, the music. :kitteh:
> 
> Basically, think _Evangelion_ + some random cop show like Law and Order or NCIS. Albeit with more awesomeness from the main characters than Eva ever had. :wink:


Wow I'll have to have a watch then, I liked GitS. Haha it sounds interesting then, its kind of recent right?


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Wow I'll have to have a watch then, I liked GitS. Haha it sounds interesting then, its kind of recent right?


Eh, I haven't finished the series of GitS, but the movie was pretty good. :happy: And, well, it has an English release, so it's not *that* recent, but still looks pretty damn good. And speaking of the English release, I'd recommend you watch that one, since I'm not a sub elitist. :dry: Then again, the one friend I have which would qualify as one of those thinks the English VAs for this one are better than the original, so there that is.


----------



## owlet

Maybe I'll have a go?



angelcat said:


> I understand. I've been there. Recently, in fact.
> 
> Who are you? When you are at your best, what is your personality like? What do you show other people on a regular basis? What do you keep hidden from them? What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?
> 
> What do you want to do with your life? What are your two most defining traits?


1. I am the consciousness that resides in both my body and my dreams. I am an insular energy, or at least I feel insular when in fact all energy feeds off other energy. 

2. I'm a very calm, happy person who is focused on my writing and weaving stories through life. I don't get bothered by much and go along at my own pace without feeling any pressure. I can give good advice and help people if they ask me to, but even when at my best, I still feel hesitant about getting too involved with people outside of a select few.

3. It's actually quite difficult to answer this question because, although I've been called things from quiet to weird to nice to intense to artistic to polite, what goes on in my head kind of takes over, so I feel like I'm contributing more to conversations because I'm thinking about the topic etc. than I actually am. I don't purposefully show anything in particular, although I censor myself to an extent by just saying nothing at times - mostly to avoid potential arguments (because they make me tired). I can appear kind of awkward and maybe a bit cold or distracted, I think?

4. I guess I keep most of myself hidden, but what I show is also me. I just don't like the idea of people knowing, for example, about my interests when they're strangers. I don't really show much to strangers besides basic levels of politeness. With friends and family, I'm a lot more open, but don't like to feel that I have to explain myself or my actions all the time, so it's not intentionally keeping things hidden but just not offering that (I mean that I'm open when they ask me things, rather than me actually offering information - that's something I very, very rarely do).

5. When they ask what I keep hidden? I couldn't really describe it because it's sort of an absence of intention to keep things hidden and a lack of awareness about sharing myself. I don't really think about it, but then I also know when I'm not comfortable sharing something with people i.e. when my sister was telling people I had a short story published and it made me uncomfortable - I still don't know why, really. I just wouldn't have offered that information unless they asked for it.

6. I want to imagine and create - and explore these creations (through writing, mostly). I want to be able to move at my own pace with no pressure. I'd like to have a nice quiet place to live (preferably in solitude, but with easy access to close family and friends), where I could just focus on what I wanted to do. I'd quite like a turtle.

7. Hm... Do I have defining traits? I guess I tend to express myself through extremes of sounding like I'm stating facts vs putting 'probably' or 'maybe' before everything. Another one... Maybe how I speak in a sort of broken way? Kind of fractured sentences and I have a fairly monotone voice unless very excited about something.
I'm not sure if those are traits, really, or just weak points. In myself, I mostly notice that I have an over-powering imagination that I can't express through language (but give a good imitation of it through writing).




ElliCat said:


> I want to play!
> 
> *Who are you? *
> A bundle of contradictions and fairy dust trapped inside a clumsy, malfunctioning case of flesh.
> 
> *When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
> Compassionate, creative, open-minded. Sees the best in people. Artistic and unafraid to show it. Gives good advice to those who ask for it.
> 
> I'm... not quite there yet. But I'm working on it.
> 
> *What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
> Strangers: A cold, stony front, with an occasional shy smile.
> 
> Acquaintances/distant relatives: Politeness and a few more smiles.
> 
> Intimates: More extreme mood swings. Kindness, stupid jokes, conversations about anything and everything, followed by tears and sulking and frustrated broken sentences.
> 
> *What do you keep hidden from them? *
> Most of what goes on inside my head. Most of my feelings. The few creative things I still produce. How much I doubt myself and beat myself up over things. How much I do to avoid hurting other people, and my frustration when I still can't avoid it and I don't know why.
> 
> *What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
> A lot! I have a much bigger vocabulary when I write than when I speak, so I often find it hard to find the right words even when describing basic stuff. It's worse when I'm in an argument or a debate and I feel like I'm under pressure to explain and/or defend myself quickly. Then my head is so full of feelings and taking in how the other person is acting and beating myself up over my stupidity and trying to figure out a plan that it just overheats and shuts down on me. XD
> 
> *What do you want to do with your life? *
> Become the best version of myself that I be. Improve the lives of the people around me. See and understand all the things that catch my interest. Know that no matter how crazy the rest of the world is or becomes, I never gave in.
> 
> *What are your two most defining traits?*
> I don't even know.
> 
> 
> Oh that kind of sounds like how I cook. If I don't know how to make something I look up like 10 different versions of the recipe online and then I follow none of them. Instead I kind of combine all the bits that I like to make some easier version for myself. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it really doesn't!
> 
> 
> No "interest" for me is also "I like to think and read about this". I like to discuss it if other people are also interested in it, but sometimes it's hard to find people like that. So I can relate to this too.


Haha, I can relate to this too. It does seem quite Fi-Ne.


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> Yeah I think it's the lessening of depth i the idea maybe?


Just makes it less novel. Like I already squeezed everything I could out of it. Sometimes I come back to old ideas but only when lots of time has passed so I forget most of it.



> ahh so it's kind of a mental image too?


Memory. I can retain visual memory very well. Well, at very least enough to keep drawing. I do usually end up prioritizing correct anatomy/physics over image I have in my mind since I don't have enough of "finger skill" to make an exact copy.



> Very true, I think extroverted functions are more likely to seek more things?


Maybe also Pe dominance. My mother likes to have something playing on the background when she crafts too. She is a lot more OK without it than I am, though.



> It's good you have so many people you can get input from! My sister tries to get input on her writing but a lot of friends wont give her proper criticisms (only me and maybe one or two others).


TBH none of them gives me _exactly_ the kind I want but imperfect discussion is better than none.


----------



## Barakiel

Thought I'd actually buckle down and do this one. 

*Who are you?*

A lazy, unmotivated person who will act like an asshole just to play the foil to someone's happiness, but will also rush to help someone if I feel they're in need. Beyond that, an otaku who covers the noise around him with headphones because he can't stand the family politics and whining over nothing, and prefers escapism to reality.

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*

When I'm at my best, huh? That's not vague at all. :dry: Well, a friend of mine would say that would be about five years ago when I was naive and kind, and I would have to disagree, since the majority of my current personality has been from the me that hardened beyond that. Though, right now, I think I've regained some of my old qualities while still being cautious and cynical enough to not be a softie. And that's what I consider my best, for the moment, at least. For a summary of my personality, look above for the first answer I gave. :wink:

*What do you show other people on a regular basis?*

An apathetic teenager who enjoys the time he spends with his friends, but is unwilling to console them on their problems, at least outwardly. Furthermore, someone who also discounts emotional displays and caring for others for more backwards compliments, mostly including sarcasm. So much so that it's basically a given for me to be the person who doesn't care about people dying on the news, while everyone else is appalled, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause hey, people die every day and no one cares.

*What do you keep hidden from them?*

It's basically a given by now that I wear headphones when listening/watching stuff, and it extends even further than that, I hate having people watch what I'm doing. Though if you're talking personality, then mostly my relations to other people, and the degree of my anger towards religion, it's hard to talk about when you grow up as a Christian.

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*

Hm, mostly when they ask me what I'm planning for the future, I really can't say anything, as that's not what I think about, I come up with possible things I can do, and they fail. Speaking of that, I really want to do a job that I love, but my stutter makes that impossible, which irks me. :frustrating: Besides my future, mostly my thought processes, actually, they're really unorthodox and strange to the type of people my family are, which are, to recount, an ISTJ mother, an INTP step-dad coming into his Fe, and an INFP (just guessing on this last one, mind you.  ) sister.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Eh, I haven't finished the series of GitS, but the movie was pretty good. :happy: And, well, it has an English release, so it's not *that* recent, but still looks pretty damn good. And speaking of the English release, I'd recommend you watch that one, since I'm not a sub elitist. :dry: Then again, the one friend I have which would qualify as one of those thinks the English VAs for this one are better than the original, so there that is.


Maybe it was the English release Im thinking of. Ahh yeah some dubs are actually better than subs in my opinion, most of the time theyre not but you always get exceptions!

I'll give this a go too @angelcat

*Who are you? *
I dont really know, hopefully a decent person who's probably not so good with people much (too nervous, but somehow come across as confident). I tend to leave it up to others to decide for themselves who I am, because to me I'm myself.

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
I tend to be very honest with others and myself, am fairly direct, kind (apparently), helpful without thinking about it (I only notice when people comment), very inquisitive, focused, good at new things etc.

*What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
People I don't know well - my face and general appearance. Seriously though (although that isnt wrong) I tend to be very polite when I dont know people well, apparently come across as very mature and confident etc. I tend not to share very much about myself unless I take a liking to a person (which is rare).

Classmates etc: I'm fairly polite, but more likely to make jokey comments if Im pretty sure it wont cause a huge issue. I keep things fairly on the topic of class rather than my personal life etc.

People I like/am close to: I joke a lot, can be affectionate, can tell them things that are stressing me (Ive had to work on sharing feelings a lot), am happy to have long discussions about things, explore ideas etc.

*What do you keep hidden from them? *
Things I think they wont react well to, I really hate conflict and drama. I prefer to keep things simple and so tell them things in a truthful way but try and say it in a way that means theyre more likely to accept it. I hate lying so wont lie at all, except with people I really dont care about. I dont share many of my thoughts and feelings because I just cant put them into words. They're too internal and too raw to be put into any language and be expressed in a way to be accurately comprehended.

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
Feelings, especially negative ones. I mostly say "Im happy" or "Im sad/anxious" but cant elaborate very well because I worry it wont be accurate. I really dont like saying things and then realising its not exactly what I meant and having to go back on it (Ive had that happen when I was working on expressing myself -yay therapy- and someone accused me of lying because I changed what I was saying after, so now I try not to say anything if Im not 90% sure it wont be misinterpreted).
I'm fine describing things Ive done or seen in great detail but find expressing internal parts of myself very hard.

*What do you want to do with your life? *
Provide what I can for the people I care about, do something to help wildlife/nature, work in a job I enjoy, get much better at my art, have a decent house with pets, travel.

*What are your two most defining traits?*
My facial expressions and my hair tuft (I have a small bit of hair at the front of my head that sticks up and no one can explain where it came from or why it wont grow out!)


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> Just makes it less novel. Like I already squeezed everything I could out of it. Sometimes I come back to old ideas but only when lots of time has passed so I forget most of it.
> *Does it need to be novel for you to want to write it?
> *
> Memory. I can retain visual memory very well. Well, at very least enough to keep drawing. I do usually end up prioritizing correct anatomy/physics over image I have in my mind since I don't have enough of "finger skill" to make an exact copy.
> *That's cool, I can do something similar with a kind of 'snapshot' in my mind. Do you find you need outside images too?*
> 
> Maybe also Pe dominance. My mother likes to have something playing on the background when she crafts too. She is a lot more OK without it than I am, though.
> *Ah I do like music on a lot of the time when Im working on something, but can concentrate in most areas i.e. in the canteen in universit yI could sit and do revision no matter what was going on around me.*
> 
> TBH none of them gives me _exactly_ the kind I want but imperfect discussion is better than none.


So what sort of discussion do you like best?


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Thought I'd actually buckle down and do this one.
> 
> *Who are you?*
> 
> A lazy, unmotivated person who will act like an asshole just to play the foil to someone's happiness, but will also rush to help someone if I feel they're in need. Beyond that, an otaku who covers the noise around him with headphones because he can't stand the family politics and whining over nothing, and prefers escapism to reality.
> 
> *When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*
> 
> When I'm at my best, huh? That's not vague at all. :dry: Well, a friend of mine would say that would be about five years ago when I was naive and kind, and I would have to disagree, since the majority of my current personality has been from the me that hardened beyond that. Though, right now, I think I've regained some of my old qualities while still being cautious and cynical enough to not be a softie. And that's what I consider my best, for the moment, at least. For a summary of my personality, look above for the first answer I gave. :wink:
> 
> *What do you show other people on a regular basis?*
> 
> An apathetic teenager who enjoys the time he spends with his friends, but is unwilling to console them on their problems, at least outwardly. Furthermore, someone who also discounts emotional displays and caring for others for more backwards compliments, mostly including sarcasm. So much so that it's basically a given for me to be the person who doesn't care about people dying on the news, while everyone else is appalled, I'm just rolling my eyes, cause hey, people die every day and no one cares.
> 
> *What do you keep hidden from them?*
> 
> It's basically a given by now that I wear headphones when listening/watching stuff, and it extends even further than that, I hate having people watch what I'm doing. Though if you're talking personality, then mostly my relations to other people, and the degree of my anger towards religion, it's hard to talk about when you grow up as a Christian.
> 
> *What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
> 
> Hm, mostly when they ask me what I'm planning for the future, I really can't say anything, as that's not what I think about, I come up with possible things I can do, and they fail. Speaking of that, I really want to do a job that I love, but my stutter makes that impossible, which irks me. :frustrating: Besides my future, mostly my thought processes, actually, they're really unorthodox and strange to the type of people my family are, which are, to recount, an ISTJ mother, an INTP step-dad coming into his Fe, and an INFP (just guessing on this last one, mind you.  ) sister.


This seems very Se-Ti to me. Maybe some negative Fe-Ni going on in being fairly disillusioned in how things will turn out (i.e. saying you can't do the job you enjoy for sure) and thinking of very clear impressions or images people have of you - very externalised.

ESTP?


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> Maybe it was the English release Im thinking of. Ahh yeah some dubs are actually better than subs in my opinion, most of the time theyre not but you always get exceptions!
> 
> I'll give this a go too @_angelcat_
> 
> *Who are you? *
> I dont really know, hopefully a decent person who's probably not so good with people much (too nervous, but somehow come across as confident). I tend to leave it up to others to decide for themselves who I am, because to me I'm myself.
> 
> *When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
> I tend to be very honest with others and myself, am fairly direct, kind (apparently), helpful without thinking about it (I only notice when people comment), very inquisitive, focused, good at new things etc.
> 
> *What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
> People I don't know well - my face and general appearance. Seriously though (although that isnt wrong) I tend to be very polite when I dont know people well, apparently come across as very mature and confident etc. I tend not to share very much about myself unless I take a liking to a person (which is rare).
> 
> Classmates etc: I'm fairly polite, but more likely to make jokey comments if Im pretty sure it wont cause a huge issue. I keep things fairly on the topic of class rather than my personal life etc.
> 
> People I like/am close to: I joke a lot, can be affectionate, can tell them things that are stressing me (Ive had to work on sharing feelings a lot), am happy to have long discussions about things, explore ideas etc.
> 
> *What do you keep hidden from them? *
> Things I think they wont react well to, I really hate conflict and drama. I prefer to keep things simple and so tell them things in a truthful way but try and say it in a way that means theyre more likely to accept it. I hate lying so wont lie at all, except with people I really dont care about. I dont share many of my thoughts and feelings because I just cant put them into words. They're too internal and too raw to be put into any language and be expressed in a way to be accurately comprehended.
> 
> *What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
> Feelings, especially negative ones. I mostly say "Im happy" or "Im sad/anxious" but cant elaborate very well because I worry it wont be accurate. I really dont like saying things and then realising its not exactly what I meant and having to go back on it (Ive had that happen when I was working on expressing myself -yay therapy- and someone accused me of lying because I changed what I was saying after, so now I try not to say anything if Im not 90% sure it wont be misinterpreted).
> I'm fine describing things Ive done or seen in great detail but find expressing internal parts of myself very hard.
> 
> *What do you want to do with your life? *
> Provide what I can for the people I care about, do something to help wildlife/nature, work in a job I enjoy, get much better at my art, have a decent house with pets, travel.
> 
> *What are your two most defining traits?*
> My facial expressions and my hair tuft (I have a small bit of hair at the front of my head that sticks up and no one can explain where it came from or why it wont grow out!)


Se and Ti, but it does seem like there's more Ti and a sort of healthy but undeveloped Fe thing going on with the concern about accuracy and giving a basic word to describe a feeling like 'happy' - condensing it into something people can understand easily.

I see nothing to doubt ISTP. I'm wondering if you're a healthy 8w9 or 9w8 though, with the whole thing about providing for your family etc. What do you think?


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Wow, so many people filling out angelcat's mini-questionnaire....


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Se and Ti, but it does seem like there's more Ti and a sort of healthy but undeveloped Fe thing going on with the concern about accuracy and giving a basic word to describe a feeling like 'happy' - condensing it into something people can understand easily.
> 
> I see nothing to doubt ISTP. I'm wondering if you're a healthy 8w9 or 9w8 though, with the whole thing about providing for your family etc. What do you think?


Thank you for that. Im glad there's no more doubting of my type! Hmm, I dont know very much about 8 or w8 types, do you know any good/non stereotyped descriptions?


----------



## Immolate

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Wow, so many people filling out angelcat's mini-questionnaire....


I checked in and this is what I found. It's cute


----------



## 68097

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> And now for some reason I'm regretting writing it - though I guess it was like a warning that my answers wouldn't be that great. And I do constantly compare myself with others which indeed results in my not being enormously proud of who I am, yes.


Welcome to the club. I do it all the time._ Look what I did! Isn't this neat? Except yours is better. Damn, I'm ashamed now_. =P



> See, I'm reading your version and thinking "_How!?_ How does a person get to the point where they can say all that stuff about themselves? I never know how to describe myself and see myself as terribly boring."


I stopped over thinking and just wrote it. Threw out some stuff, spiced it up a bit with funny bits. Plus, I've been writing for 20 years, which means I can make anything sound good. Almost. I'm not sure I could sell a cat turd. I might be able to, though. 



> One big problem is I don't go very deep into things. I don't have a lot of information to share about any so-called "interest", just experiences and thoughts and ideas that I tend to think aren't even very good. So I guess I can't put down anything I'm interested in or like since all that really means is "I like to think and read about this", rather than "I would love to discuss this for hours!", which I think is what most people mean by interest.


What do you mean by that? You don't take an interest and research stuff? Or that you prefer to keep your interests to yourself?

Usually high Si loves random details from the 16th century or oh hey, did you know there was an Egyptian mummy in the hold of _Titanic_? -- kind of thing. If we get really obsessed, we study so much we become 'experts' on the subject. (Do not challenge me on Pontius Pilate or Katharine of Aragon. I will win.) NPs can do this too, though. They're just more inclined to catch on to the broad scope and take off running before they're done researching. Of course, I do that too. "Ooh, I want to write a book about this historical figure! ... I feel like doing that now... but I should wait and do research first... ugh... no, I'll just change it later if I need to..."



> The one thing I'm certain of! It took me almost 20 years to develop an interest in people, which is a problem because my natural response is to separate myself. I shoot down small-talk with brief answers and generally regard roommates, classmates, and coworkers like living furniture. They're just....there. I'm nice and all, politeness and kindness come naturally to me, but I don't think of them much unless they engage me first. So now that I'd actually like to learn how to converse and such, I have no idea what to do and see myself as having nothing contribute. So that's a thing.


I can kind of relate. I'm actually pretty good at starting conversations, but half of them die because the other person doesn't know how to keep the proverbial ball in the air. So after throwing six balls at someone and having them shoot them down, I quit and go back to texting my friends. 

Best way to learn? Look at other people and see how they do it, then mimic them until you find your own natural flow. That's how I learned every skill I have. Find someone good at it, and copy them. 



> Shame, I guess? Fear of rejection, of being made fun of, or questioned too far until I won't be able to explain myself anymore, then looking stupid.


Ah, shame. Yes, we all live with that. And guilt. Fear of rejection... that's the huge one that keeps me crippled. 



> Also just because I'm not entirely certain of what or who I even am, resulting in a feeling like there's nothing _to_ show. Which sucks because it really feels like no one else has this problem, not to this extent.


You think you're an ISFJ, yes? If so ... it's natural not to have a sense of yourself, and the more you try and peg yourself down, the more elusive you are. Why? Fe/Ne mostly. Abstract ruminations through Si/Ti. Nothing really truly concrete or factual to base your self-estimation on. The more I try and figure myself out, the unhappier I become, because hell if I know who I am. I just make crap up half the time, depending on how I feel about myself that day. But recently I've decided to stop talking down about myself, and assuming people think I'm weird or boring, and just be myself, whoever and whatever that may be. I am way happier when I am thinking about other things than myself and my lack of ... whatever.



> I write more or less the way I think, and people seem to like it (I've had about 4 people on PerC say I should write a novel). According to some thread I saw ages ago, the way I choose words is pure Sensation: I go by sound. I seem to have an almost innate sense of whether or not words sound right together, and a pretty loud inner monologue that just...flows. The result is an ability to write "quickly and coherently", and sounding relatively erudite. Unfortunately online, this means I write a lot, trying to get all the details out.


You're lucky to have that. I had to train myself out of long, padded sections and pretentious dialogue and convoluted sentences, because my brain is like a yo-yo hanging off the back of a freight train. I had a thought -- ooh, and there's another random one and -- shoot, what was the first one? It was good, whatever it was...


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> Thank you for that. Im glad there's no more doubting of my type! Hmm, I dont know very much about 8 or w8 types, do you know any good/non stereotyped descriptions?


Well, the core ideal of type 8 is to not be reliant on anyone but themselves. It's often exaggerated as a physically strong type, when in fact there's just a tendency towards them becoming physically strong in order to be able to rely more on themselves. At their best, 8s will use their strength and knowledge gained from pursuing independence to protect and aid those they care for - it becomes more selfless, rather than the lower-middle health levels where its mostly focused on its own independence and reaching that (8s can mistype as 6s because of their general aversion to authority, because they don't want to rely on them). They have a lot of willpower and don't want to be controlled by others.


----------



## Greyhart

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Wow, so many people filling out angelcat's mini-questionnaire....


You inspired the following.

@angelcat is ESFJ. wHAT'S HAPPENIng.


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> You inspired the following.
> 
> @angelcat is ESFJ. wHAT'S HAPPENIng.


Thought I would try it on for awhile. I figure if it doesn't fit, I can return it within 30 days, right?

ETA: It's a social experiment, to see how much of my behavior really IS generated by people's expectations. ESFJs are expected to be social, so will I act social? ESFJs are good at making money, so will I make more money? 

I got withdrawn and sullen and super-logical when I thought I was an NT type. I doubted my storytelling ability as an ISFJ. Now, we'll see what ESFJ does. Maybe it'll be awesome. Or maybe it'll exhaust me and I'll crawl back into my introvert hole and say, "Glad I tried it. Never again."


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Maybe I'll have a go?
> 
> 1. I am the consciousness that resides in both my body and my dreams. I am an insular energy, or at least I feel insular when in fact all energy feeds off other energy.
> *Very abstract!
> *
> 2. I'm a very calm, happy person who is focused on my writing and weaving stories through life. I don't get bothered by much and go along at my own pace without feeling any pressure. I can give good advice and help people if they ask me to, but even when at my best, I still feel hesitant about getting too involved with people outside of a select few.
> *Introverted function.
> *
> 3. It's actually quite difficult to answer this question because, although I've been called things from quiet to weird to nice to intense to artistic to polite, what goes on in my head kind of takes over, so I feel like I'm contributing more to conversations because I'm thinking about the topic etc. than I actually am. I don't purposefully show anything in particular, although I censor myself to an extent by just saying nothing at times - mostly to avoid potential arguments (because they make me tired). I can appear kind of awkward and maybe a bit cold or distracted, I think?
> 
> 4. I guess I keep most of myself hidden, but what I show is also me. I just don't like the idea of people knowing, for example, about my interests when they're strangers. I don't really show much to strangers besides basic levels of politeness. With friends and family, I'm a lot more open, but don't like to feel that I have to explain myself or my actions all the time, so it's not intentionally keeping things hidden but just not offering that (I mean that I'm open when they ask me things, rather than me actually offering information - that's something I very, very rarely do).
> *Fi I think.
> *
> 5. When they ask what I keep hidden? I couldn't really describe it because it's sort of an absence of intention to keep things hidden and a lack of awareness about sharing myself. I don't really think about it, but then I also know when I'm not comfortable sharing something with people i.e. when my sister was telling people I had a short story published and it made me uncomfortable - I still don't know why, really. I just wouldn't have offered that information unless they asked for it.
> *Fi Ne I think.
> *
> 6. I want to imagine and create - and explore these creations (through writing, mostly). I want to be able to move at my own pace with no pressure. I'd like to have a nice quiet place to live (preferably in solitude, but with easy access to close family and friends), where I could just focus on what I wanted to do. I'd quite like a turtle.
> *Ne
> *
> 7. Hm... Do I have defining traits? I guess I tend to express myself through extremes of sounding like I'm stating facts vs putting 'probably' or 'maybe' before everything. Another one... Maybe how I speak in a sort of broken way? Kind of fractured sentences and I have a fairly monotone voice unless very excited about something.
> I'm not sure if those are traits, really, or just weak points. In myself, I mostly notice that I have an over-powering imagination that I can't express through language (but give a good imitation of it through writing).
> *Lower confidence, but seems Fi/Ne?*


hope that's okay?


----------



## Max

Do you guys think I am a cp 6w7 or 8w7 on the enneagram? I know I have a 7 wing.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Thought I would try it on for awhile. I figure if it doesn't fit, I can return it within 30 days, right?
> 
> ETA: It's a social experiment, to see how much of my behavior really IS generated by people's expectations. ESFJs are expected to be social, so will I act social? ESFJs are good at making money, so will I make more money?
> 
> I got withdrawn and sullen and super-logical when I thought I was an NT type. I doubted my storytelling ability as an ISFJ. Now, we'll see what ESFJ does. Maybe it'll be awesome. Or maybe it'll exhaust me and I'll crawl back into my introvert hole and say, "Glad I tried it. Never again."


It will be enlightening.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Do you guys think I am a cp 6w7 or 8w7 on the enneagram? I know I have a 7 wing.


u kno my vote



angelcat said:


> Thought I would try it on for awhile. I figure if it doesn't fit, I can return it within 30 days, right?
> 
> ETA: It's a social experiment, to see how much of my behavior really IS generated by people's expectations. ESFJs are expected to be social, so will I act social? ESFJs are good at making money, so will I make more money?
> 
> I got withdrawn and sullen and super-logical when I thought I was an NT type. I doubted my storytelling ability as an ISFJ. Now, we'll see what ESFJ does. Maybe it'll be awesome. Or maybe it'll exhaust me and I'll crawl back into my introvert hole and say, "Glad I tried it. Never again."


On forums during my INTJ days I wrote the same as now. Which kind of clued me very fast that I don't fit with INTJ or any TJ folk. :laughing:

____________

off-topic watching season 4 of GoT (I kept waiting for mood to strike... it stroke a year after season ended) grandma Tyrell is _The_ Queen.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Greyhart said:


> You inspired the following.
> 
> @angelcat is ESFJ. wHAT'S HAPPENIng.


OMG! I am dying!


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> off-topic watching season 4 of GoT (I kept waiting for mood to strike... it stroke a year after season ended) grandma Tyrell is _The_ Queen.


Long may she reign!


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> This seems very Se-Ti to me. Maybe some negative Fe-Ni going on in being fairly disillusioned in how things will turn out (i.e. saying you can't do the job you enjoy for sure) and thinking of very clear impressions or images people have of you - very externalised.
> 
> ESTP?


ESTP would fit, yeah, and Se-Ni is pretty damn obvious now, at least in comparison to higher Ni and lower Se. But the thing I'm curious about is the Ti, where do you see that? :wink:


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

angelcat said:


> What do you mean by that? You don't take an interest and research stuff? Or that you prefer to keep your interests to yourself?


Both. Yes, I always keep my "interests" to myself. But I also don't research much; I have a hard time getting interested enough. I'll think "Oh, that sounds interesting; I should learn that"...and then I'll never get around to it. Or I'll look up one or two things and not be able to maintain interest. 

And I can't say I have a large collection of random information. I used to, sort of, mainly because I could glean information from anywhere. These days my memory isn't that great.




> I can kind of relate. I'm actually pretty good at starting conversations, but half of them die because the other person doesn't know how to keep the proverbial ball in the air. So after throwing six balls at someone and having them shoot them down, I quit and go back to texting my friends.


I think you misunderstand me: I *am* that person who doesn't know how to keep the conversational ball in the air.




> You think you're an ISFJ, yes? If so ... it's natural not to have a sense of yourself, and the more you try and peg yourself down, the more elusive you are. Why? Fe/Ne mostly. Abstract ruminations through Si/Ti. Nothing really truly concrete or factual to base your self-estimation on. The more I try and figure myself out, the unhappier I become, because hell if I know who I am. I just make crap up half the time, depending on how I feel about myself that day. But recently I've decided to stop talking down about myself, and assuming people think I'm weird or boring, and just be myself, whoever and whatever that may be. *I am way happier when I am thinking about other things than myself and my lack of ... whatever.*



Huh, so that could explain it all, huh.

And the stuff in bold has been my best defense, sort of. Except I tend to obsess over it, overthink it, etc.


----------



## 68097

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Both. Yes, I always keep my "interests" to myself. But I also don't research much; I have a hard time getting interested enough. I'll think "Oh, that sounds interesting; I should learn that"...and then I'll never get around to it. *Or I'll look up one or two things and not be able to maintain interest*.


That's... interesting to me. Why do you get bored?



> And I can't say I have a large collection of random information. I used to, sort of, mainly because I could glean information from anywhere. These days my memory isn't that great.


What has changed? (If it was something traumatic, you don't have to share.) 



> I think you misunderstand me: I *am* that person who doesn't know how to keep the conversational ball in the air.


Oh, I understood you. Sorry, my Ne took me down a side trail. What I meant to convey was it can be difficult to keep up a conversation, period. But if you're not actively trying to participate, there's no point. You need to take an interest in more actively participating, if you can.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

angelcat said:


> That's... interesting to me. Why do you get bored?


No idea why. I just can't maintain interest, and can't seem to force it, either.



> What has changed? (If it was something traumatic, you don't have to share.)


Um, I failed at a lot of things? I'm lazy and had no drive to keep up my "advanced" knowledge? I'm used to things coming easily and consider having to study and carefully_ learn_ to be a sign of intellectual inferiority? I'm not sure. Maybe a combination of things.


----------



## orbit

I need a break from reading my book and why not? I'll jump on the bandwagon. Nobody has to read this though. ^^

* *






*Who are you? *
I can only estimate the parameter: A human being who wonders if she's actually do anything. 

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
Optimistic, cheerful, independent, talkative, careful, curious, hardworking, and responsible. Cannot maintain this. 

*What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
Questions, smiling, sass, excessive hand motions, and stupid comments that are apparently sometimes morbid that only make people smile because I'm smiling. 

*What do you keep hidden from them? *
Fairly typical: What I'm doing, my frustrations, and of course my introverted self. Who I am outside of their spectrum is my business. Anything that isn't public or wouldn't naturally be talked about. 

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
When Person A asks me a concept works in math/science, all I can do is make flabbergasted hand motions and attempt to draw my own reasoning. I can't explain things to people, just show them examples to let them form their own conclusions. I don't have trouble in this in English or history. 

*What do you want to do with your life? *
Become a chemist, never waste my potential, help people as an extension of my work, ask questions, and not be hurtful. 

*What are your two most defining traits?*
Two traits that go well together: Assertive and ignorant.


----------



## Immolate

I did my best to avoid it... and I avoided it for a long, long time... but today it finally caught up with me. I had my wisdom teeth extracted. I've spent the last hour trying to eat apple sauce and periodically answering @_angelcat_'s questionnaire. What a weekend.


* *




*
Who are you?*

There is no one else like me and there never will be. I would be the consciousness, soul, ghost in a cyborg body because I am not all this fleshy stuff. Take away my physical aspects, give me a new face, I am still the same person. I am my thoughts and feelings.

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*

Impossible question. I am a constant work in progress. What is best today is dirt tomorrow.

*What do you show other people on a regular basis?*

They see someone who is reserved and quiet, someone who is not quick to action, someone who prefers sitting by herself reading a book or listening to thunder. I show my knowledge of a subject if someone needs or wants it. I show my caring side and, at times, I show my silliness. In other words, they see a wall or the surface of a frozen lake.

*What do you keep hidden from them?*

The greatest thing I own is myself, my body but more importantly my mind. I feel I have to protect that. I can't give my thoughts and feelings away so freely. I would lose ownership of myself. If I share all there is, what do I have to go back to when I'm alone in my mind? It's not that I'd have nothing to think or feel or ponder. It's that I would be transparent and people would look into me and figure me all out. I'd be public. I need to keep my secrets, there has to be something that no one else in the world knows about me. 

I always feel a bit emptier after self-disclosing, like the shell that is my body is hollowing out because I keep giving away bits of my essence. Pieces of me are walking around without my control and I hate the thought of it. In that sense, I keep my core self hidden.

Approaching the question a bit more simply, I hide my softer emotions and my vulnerabilities because not everyone will understand or appreciate the effort it takes to let them out. I also hide my “creative” side because stories and sketches are strictly for myself. 
*
What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*

My feelings for the most part. Sometimes I don’t have the words to describe what I’m feeling because some feelings can’t be condensed that way. Some things are easier to express through actions, even small ones. The downfall is that not everyone can interpret those actions, not everyone will even notice.

*What do you want to do with your life?*

I simply want to make it worth something, to myself and others. I want to die knowing my presence on this earth wasn’t a candle snuffing out, inconsequential to anything or anyone.

*What are your two most defining traits?*

Quiet and lost in thought. That’s what most people would say if they had to describe me. Barring that, I would say… my appreciation for simple things, like handmade gifts because I find them more personal and representative of an emotional bond. Sitting down with someone and simply talking isn’t a bad way to pass the time. I would also say it’s my depth of feeling. Even though I do my best to keep them below the surface, I care very deeply for people and ideas. If I stand for someone or something, I’m in it for the long-haul.


----------



## orbit

Trying to eat applesauce? Trying?

Your questionnaire was genius, Shiny.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Well, the core ideal of type 8 is to not be reliant on anyone but themselves. It's often exaggerated as a physically strong type, when in fact there's just a tendency towards them becoming physically strong in order to be able to rely more on themselves. At their best, 8s will use their strength and knowledge gained from pursuing independence to protect and aid those they care for - it becomes more selfless, rather than the lower-middle health levels where its mostly focused on its own independence and reaching that (8s can mistype as 6s because of their general aversion to authority, because they don't want to rely on them). They have a lot of willpower and don't want to be controlled by others.


Thanks that's very good, especially compared to many others Ive read about 8s. I was wondering how they mistype as6s are I thought 6s preferred authority?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Trying to eat applesauce? Trying?
> 
> Your questionnaire was genius, Shiny.


Thank you, Curiphant. I never know what to say in such situations 

Also, yes, trying. Isn't this how it goes? Oh dear.


----------



## 68097

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> No idea why. I just can't maintain interest, and can't seem to force it, either.
> 
> Um, I failed at a lot of things? I'm lazy and had no drive to keep up my "advanced" knowledge? I'm used to things coming easily and consider having to study and carefully_ learn_ to be a sign of intellectual inferiority? I'm not sure. Maybe a combination of things.


Makes me wonder if you're not an INXP of some kind, in a Ti or Fi/Si depressive loop. _Details? Who needs 'em? I catch on fast_.

@shinynotshiny: still strikes me as an INTJ.


----------



## Max

@angelcat -What about me?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I need a break from reading my book and why not? I'll jump on the bandwagon. Nobody has to read this though. ^^
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Who are you? *
> I can only estimate the parameter: A human being who wonders if she's actually do anything.
> 
> *When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
> Optimistic, cheerful, independent, talkative, careful, curious, hardworking, and responsible. Cannot maintain this.
> 
> *What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
> Questions, smiling, sass, excessive hand motions, and stupid comments that are apparently sometimes morbid that only make people smile because I'm smiling.
> 
> *What do you keep hidden from them? *
> Fairly typical: What I'm doing, my frustrations, and of course my introverted self. Who I am outside of their spectrum is my business. Anything that isn't public or wouldn't naturally be talked about.
> 
> *What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
> When Person A asks me a concept works in math/science, all I can do is make flabbergasted hand motions and attempt to draw my own reasoning. I can't explain things to people, just show them examples to let them form their own conclusions. I don't have trouble in this in English or history.
> 
> *What do you want to do with your life? *
> Become a chemist, never waste my potential, help people as an extension of my work, ask questions, and not be hurtful.
> 
> *What are your two most defining traits?*
> Two traits that go well together: Assertive and ignorant.


Anyone have thoughts on Curious?


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes. I can do this, especially with faces and places. And songs and movies, but the main problem I have with Si is the whole "action of the moment thing". Yes. I am great at comparing things to past experiences stored inside my mind, and at recording things for future use, but I also see myself acting in the moment sometimes. Just doing things to get them done/exploring things. It doesn't take me long to tune into/get used to what is in front of me sometimes.


I think you're misunderstanding me, which is my fault. I should explain things more clearly.

Sensors all interact with their environment. Yes, Si is withdrawn from it -- but it also takes action in it, to accomplish things. I would much rather DO IT than TALK ABOUT IT, if there is a situation that needs action. I get annoyed if people spend too much time planning or over-thinking it. I just ... start doing it. Shut up and work, people. 

Se would be ... continually seeking new experiences for their own sake. Expensive taste. Risk-taking, feeding into single-mindedness. 

Your earlier panic / freak out about the thought that you might be literally turning into an insect feels like low-order Ne and Ti to me. 

If you ARE a "take action" type, you're probably an extrovert. 

Re: over-thinking things.



> Sometimes I do this to a ridiculous extent. Especially under stress. Especially if I want answers, but know I can't get them for a while. I tend to overthink ridiculous circumstances, or upcoming events, especially ones a week away. Sometimes I imagine the scenario in my head before it happens.


Seems like inferior Ti, overridden by Ne. 

I think you're an intelligent, fun-loving ESFJ.


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> Thank you ^^
> 
> I can't say I relate to any of those descriptions very much, hm. I want to stay in my hometown for my college because it's cheap and a good education. I don't think I could crash my car three times without feeling like I'm wasting my time or it's not worth it. Name brands make me uncomfortable sometimes because I feel like you overpay for them.
> 
> I'm fine with generalities I think but I get annoyed with people who claim they understand what I'm feeling without any actual empathesizing and sharing over feeling but that's probably with Fi.
> 
> Reflecting on the Fi thing, I've realized that while I do like to talk and discuss things, it has always been on a shallow level to my friends. I have friends, but nobody I'm particularly close to. Just people I talk to. I don't like telling them what I'm doing unless it's related to school. I never am in the center of attention even with my constant blabbering. I don't ever hang out with people outside of classes. My friends are more like peers and acquaintances.


Introvert, maybe?

Certainly Fi. Are you positive you're Fi/Te over Te/Fi?


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> Introvert, maybe?
> 
> Certainly Fi. Are you positive you're Fi/Te over Te/Fi?


Nope. I am definitely not positive that I am Fi/Te over Te/Fi

Introvert was probably taken out of the equation too early ^^


----------



## Max

@angelcat - ESFJ? Really? That was the type I would have least thought I would have been. But when you break it down like that, it makes sense. I guess a lot of the negative stereotypes are offputting, but once you realize that not every ESFJ is/can be like that, it helps things a lot.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

angelcat said:


> Makes me wonder if you're not an INXP of some kind, in a Ti or Fi/Si depressive loop. _Details? Who needs 'em? I catch on fast_.



Well, I typed at INTP for ages, realized I was mistyped, went insane for a bit, but that's dying down, thankfully. I'm not a Ti-dom. At all. I could see Fi-dom, though.

I can no longer believe I'm an iNtuitive. My mind doesn't and never has gone at quite the frenetic pace of a strong Ne-user. I'm much more concrete and down-to-earth than I previously believed about myself. Being a strong Ni-user is right out. Typically, I do catch on fast (or I think I do. I admit, I've nodded along and said I understood even when I was shaky, because I was too ashamed of admitting I didn't understand yet...this is a sometimes thing, though), but....it bothers me that I don't do details well. 

I wouldn't put a loop past me either - I haven't exactly been in the healthiest of mental states lately.


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @angelcat - ESFJ? Really? That was the type I would have least thought I would have been. But when you break it down like that, it makes sense. I guess a lot of the negative stereotypes are offputting, but once you realize that not every ESFJ is/can be like that, it helps things a lot.


... wasn't it you who first proposed the idea? =P


----------



## 68097

scientiaomnisest said:


> well, i typed at intp for ages, realized i was mistyped, went insane for a bit, but that's dying down, thankfully. I'm not a ti-dom. At all. I could see fi-dom, though.
> 
> I can no longer believe i'm an intuitive. My mind doesn't and never has gone at quite the frenetic pace of a strong ne-user. I'm much more concrete and down-to-earth than i previously believed about myself. Being a strong ni-user is right out. Typically, i do catch on fast (or i think i do. I admit, i've nodded along and said i understood even when i was shaky, because i was too ashamed of admitting i didn't understand yet...this is a sometimes thing, though), but....it bothers me that i don't do details well.
> 
> I wouldn't put a loop past me either - i haven't exactly been in the healthiest of mental states lately.


isfp?

I don't know, something about ISFJ doesn't feel right to me, although if you're struggling with depression, that might be obscuring your self-perception and answers both.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

angelcat said:


> isfp?


Considered. I need to find me some Se tho...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

More than a bit wordy, so I put it under the spoiler tag as well. (I'm a bit icky-feeling right now for some reason I can't identify, but hopefully the answers didn't come off too tart. My apologies if they do.)

As it's been lightly termed for the day, *Angelcat's Questionnaire*


* *




*Who are you? *
I am a person who I can recognize is indescribable, because as I assume everyone else somehow does I recognize that I am infinite within myself. Because I cannot even begin to describe who I am without going into silly, wandering words (elephant with a sheen of deer and rabbit, wrong appearance of a squirrel, blue and green and the hint of yellow with a shifting and unidentifiable color at my center, working to maximize the light within her that is within all of us although the light has been too jarred lately), I like to define myself externally. 
I am a daughter - yes, Mrs. So-and-so's daughter, I identified myself as at school (where I often came into contact with her former students). Now when I visit her school, I am this and my very-socially-affluent-for-a-preteen's sister. At family reunions, I am the daughter of my parents; at my dad's very-extended family gatherings, I am a member of his father's clan. At school, I am trying to be seen as a Literature student and a member of the Honors program. In reality I think I am still seen as the "sweet, adorable one". Again, I am the things I have already identified as here. I am a Catholic. I am a Girl Scout. I am a girl -- a young lady now, I suppose they would say (if mindful of my age). 
I suppose who I am is a mixture of things. 

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like? *
I truly think I am at my best when I am helping others -- and not only helping others, but helping others _effectively_. When this happens (and I need to pave more opportunities for it to happen) I think I am warm, my voice strong and motherly/soothing. I am helpful, but also dignified. I have control of myself and the emotional needs of the situation (hopefully while giving something non-emotional to others as well). I am strong, in my way. Still smiling, but I am more than just a helping hand and have become an actual force of good for people. 
I also think I am at my best when teaching (coaching, tutoring adults, tutoring high schoolers, teaching children), but that's much the same description (except a bit better for me, as teaching and expanding minds is what I love to do most to help). 

*What do you show other people on a regular basis? *
I show others a warm exterior. Kind. Smile. Laugh politely. I try to be hardworking, but also engaging. I would like to show people my mind, that I'm actually intelligent (I think because of my suffocating friendliness and gentle nature people tend to assume otherwise), but this is admittedly difficult for me. 
I am also trying to be more 'cool,' more socially in control and stone-faced when appropriate, but this is admittedly difficult for me. 

*What do you keep hidden from them? *
My thoughts. My mind. My private judgments, of course. They have no idea that I'm trying / have convinced myself that I have figured out how their world works, and that while I walk timidly I consider myself a private "master" of it (in the sense that I _do_ understand what is going on. They have no idea what my dreams are, the deep world of my inner thoughts, how I am thinking about their situations within the larger frame of the world. 
I also hide my "edge" (my sass, my sarcasm, my blunt side) and maintain the helpful, friendly image. 

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*
What I want to do with my life. It's so difficult to explain. I would discuss things deeply and in depth with my room mate, and we got to some big topics and conversations, but even she said that one thing she had stopped trying to understand about me was my direction in life. 
(I also have trouble explaining my medical condition lol but I don't think that plays into personality type much)

*What do you want to do with your life? *
"I want to make a significant and positive change in the world." This has been my solid answer for this question since I was twelve. Now, my thoughts are warring, because actually doing what I want to do is not practical. I want to study religion at the moment and get my Ph.D to write on the similarities between religions and bridge the gaps between a person of one faith and another (and, although this path is not clear to me yet, bridge the gap between believer and non-believer and locate the undeniable moral commonalities there). 
I also want to write my novels. Particularly my _one_ story, my fictional soul story. But this is difficult as well. 
More than anything, at least at this moment in time (it is difficult to know what I want to do with my life because my direction has been so thrown off by trauma, I really am having trouble reconnecting with who I might have been before this, and have trouble making decisions that will impact the rest of my life once I am a person separate from my negative experiences) I think I want to help people. I think I need to perfect my story and publish it in order to die in peace, but in order to be fulfilled in this life I have to make a _difference_ in people's lives, in whatever way I can. I also want to be apart of a community... somewhere. 
I'm still figuring it out. This is a complicated question for a college kid whose biggest question right now is this one. 

*What are your two most defining traits?* 
Compassion and insight, internally (and to some who know me well). Externally, kindness and softness.


----------



## Immolate

@angelcat I wonder if others see the same :tongue:

@LuchoIsLurking I thought you were the one to suggest SFJ, then we concluded you're extroverted :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny I don't really trust my typing skills, but I think your answers were indicative of Ni with the obvious Te and Fi ^^


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ I don't really trust my typing skills, but I think your answers were indicative of Ni with the obvious Te and Fi ^^


How can I have Ni and not understand it :blushed:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> How can I have Ni and not understand it :blushed:


Tbh I think that's part of having Ni for quite a few who have it


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> How can I have Ni and not understand it :blushed:


Ahem

We (or at least alittlebear did) literally went though six hundred pages for alittlebear to conclude she had Ni. And to understand why. 

So shut up and make a topic where we can discuss you and Ni for another six thousand posts 

And I might have Se and I know about it but I barely understand it and how it works on me


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I think sometimes our first function is so _there_ that we can't identify it. 

_It took me three years to realize I even used Fe. _


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> How can I have Ni and not understand it :blushed:


maybe your Te wants it put into clear terms and that is evidently impossible? Still think you are an INTJ.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Ahem
> 
> We (or at least alittlebear did) literally went though six hundred pages for alittlebear to conclude she had Ni. And to understand why.
> 
> So shut up and make a topic where we can discuss you for another six thousand posts and about Ni again
> 
> And I might have Se and I know about it but I barely understand it and how it works on me


I do not have Bear's patience or gentle demeanor 

@alittlebear @fair phantom You both make good points.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I do not have Bear's patience or gentle demeanor


Go frolic in the meadows and unlock your inner softness! I believe in you! You can transform into Soft Shiny (would that be matte?)!

Oh no it's going to take me three years to realize that I use Si! Or Te! Or Se! Or whatever unsuspecting function you can leap upon me


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Go frolic in the meadows and unlock your inner softness! I believe in you! You can transform into Soft Shiny (would that be matte?)!
> 
> Oh no it's going to take me three years to realize that I use Si! Or Te! Or Se! Or whatever unsuspecting function you can leap upon me


It is impossible to frolic in my current state, and... I'm soft shiny deep inside...

It will take 600 pages, not 3 years.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> It is impossible to frolic in my current state, and... I'm soft shiny deep inside...
> 
> It will take 600 pages, not 3 years.


Your poor wisdom teeth. I wonder where they go

The three years was in reference to the timespan it took alittlebear she was Fe-dom


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Go frolic in the meadows and unlock your inner softness! I believe in you! You can transform into Soft Shiny (would that be matte?)!
> 
> Oh no it's going to take me three years to realize that I use Si! Or Te! Or Se! Or whatever unsuspecting function you can leap upon me


I've spent over a decade thinking I was an INFP and I still can't fully deny the possibility that I might actually use Ti or be a functional extravert. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Your poor wisdom teeth. I wonder where they go
> 
> The three years was in reference to the timespan it took alittlebear she was Fe-dom


Oh, I know, but you have PerC now and it will take 600 pages.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I've spent over a decade thinking I was an INFP and I still can't fully deny the possibility that I might actually use Ti or be a functional extravert. :laughing:


I might be a functional introvert whoops. 

You're actually an ISTP sorry.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh, I know, but you have PerC now and it will take 600 pages.


Of intensive, nonstop debating and random Arkigos popping through and totally flipping the table over on functions and whatnot.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Of intensive, nonstop debating and random Arkigos popping through and totally flipping the table over on functions and whatnot.


Ah, yes. @arkigos.


----------



## Metalize

What kinds of IxxP use Ni?


----------



## fair phantom

Arkigos! (I'm wondering if he is like Beetlejuice and needs to be called three times)


----------



## owlet

@shinynotshiny It's taken me ages to kind of, sort of work out Ni, but it seems to be basically subconsciously processing information and narrowing it down to one main idea, which in practice appears as an intuitive leap. It doesn't mean they come to a conclusion, but a single idea that is then judged through Fe or Te (how appropriate or how valid it is - how it lines up with the external world).


----------



## owlet

Metasentient said:


> What kinds of IxxP use Ni?


ISFP or ISTP use Ni as their tertiary function and many have a good grasp on it, which leads to mistypes.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Ah, yes. @arkigos.


I can't tell if I'm laughing because I'm amused or if I'm pissed. Thanks for that.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ It's taken me ages to kind of, sort of work out Ni, but it seems to be basically subconsciously processing information and narrowing it down to one main idea, which in practice appears as an intuitive leap. It doesn't mean they come to a conclusion, but a single idea that is then judged through Fe or Te (how appropriate or how valid it is - how it lines up with the external world).


My Te agrees with this post.

But then we have an Fe's flowery feelings and images and the harder it is to understand, the more Ni it is


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> @shinynotshiny It's taken me ages to kind of, sort of work out Ni, but it seems to be basically subconsciously processing information and narrowing it down to one main idea, which in practice appears as an intuitive leap. It doesn't mean they come to a conclusion, but a single idea that is then judged through Fe or Te (how appropriate or how valid it is - how it lines up with the external world).


You seem brilliant so I'm going to prod and exploit you for information. Se lives in the moment right? And lives for experiences for the sake of experiences as I've heard? Would it be possible for an Se-dom to spend the majority of their free time in their head and stare at sidewalks when they go on walks?

Or I just want any nuggets of information that might be relevant to me. XP


----------



## Persephone Soul

TOTALLY RANDOM AND OFF TOPIC...but ME to a T. Carry on...

The Reactive Harmonic Style (Types 4,6,8) AKA, THE TRUTH TELLER.

People whose dominant Harmonic Style is the reactive style are emotionally reactive under stress. They tend to work themselves up when a problem happens and have a hard time containing their feelings. This emotional intensity allows them to feel the "realness" of the problem, even if it is a relatively small one. Venting their frustration allows them to move on to dealing with the issue. Wanting others to see the realness of the problem, they expect others to react emotionally. Such a reaction would confirm that others agree that indeed this is a big deal. If others don't respond in the way the Reactive Style types want, they may become even more frustrated and emotional.

The Reactive Style types do not naturally trust others. They have strong opinions and tastes and want to know where others stand.

Their desire for a strong emotional response from others may be a test of trust.
Fours

Fours can get into conflicts by being overly moody, temperamental and self-absorbed. Fours tend to have (over-) dramatic reactions to problems. They need to process and internalize their experiences. Identity and emotional reactions are highly intertwined in a Four. Fours tend to withdraw into their imagination, where problems often escalate into feelings of despair and hopelessness. Fours want to be emotionally open with and trust others, but more so with very close people. Their emotional guard is down so they can let others in.
Sixes

Sixes can get into conflict by being too pessimistic, suspicious, and doubtful. Sixes tend to be very anxious people. They are always on the watch for dangers and threats. When conflicts or threats occur, their anxiety comes out, often as long rants, hysterical overreactions, and feelings of inferiority. Sixes want to trust others (and others often put their faith in Sixes), but remain wary of problems. Sometimes they let their guard down (when within the confines of the authority/belief). Other times, they keep their guard up to ensure that others do not take advantage of them.
Eights

Eights can get into conflict by being too willful, defiant and confrontational. Eights tend to not censor their own impulses or emotional reactions. Eights want to feel the realness of conflict to give themselves a stronger sense of being. When conflicts occur, Eights are very quick to challenge and confront them. Eights keep their guard up all the time and want to minimize their dependence on (and trust in) others. They do not want others to see their vulnerable side.
The Enneagram


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> I might be a functional introvert whoops.
> 
> You're actually an ISTP sorry.


I have just discovered my calling: to be the female Indiana Jones.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> My Te agrees with this post.
> 
> But then we have an Fe's flowery feelings and images and the harder it is to understand, the more Ni it is


Tú soy bado. I see visions of giant shrimp chasing habanero peppers in your future and so I warn you to avoid peppers for your own sake but if you don't want to you don't have to and I desperately need your approval of my time machine that moves sideways in time and remains in the present moment always.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I have just discovered my calling: to be the female Indiana Jones.


You Casanova D8 

James Bond.

---

I think we should mention to Arkigos that Shiny's Ni is not really in question but needs explanation? Because it would suck if he came onto the thread and saw this


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> My Te agrees with this post.
> 
> But then we have an Fe's flowery feelings and images and the harder it is to understand, the more Ni it is


Haha, I find other judging functions very difficult to relate to personally than perceiving functions for some reason...



Curiphant said:


> You seem brilliant so I'm going to prod and exploit you for information. Se lives in the moment right? And lives for experiences for the sake of experiences as I've heard? Would it be possible for an Se-dom to spend the majority of their free time in their head and stare at sidewalks when they go on walks?
> 
> Or I just want any nuggets of information that might be relevant to me. XP


Oh no, I've just spent way too much time studying and thinking... but thanks 

Well, Se isn't just about experiences, but it prefers to experience things directly rather than hypothesise about them. An example is how my ESFP mum was just asking me about what I wanted for dinner tomorrow and I wasn't sure so asked what she was having. She said 'I don't know. It's not tomorrow yet.' then proceeded to list everything there was in the house.

An Se user can be in their head, of course, but unlike Ne users, who are mostly happy to think about situations or experiences, they do want to actually experience things and so are more likely to do things (think of the common stereotype of an ISTP taking a machine apart or an ISFP painting - those are 'in your head' to an extent, but it's also doing something). I don't think a staring at pavements is really indicative of type. Did you mean something more by that?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Tú soy bado. I see visions of giant shrimp chasing habanero peppers in your future and so I warn you to avoid peppers for your own sake but if you don't want to you don't have to and I desperately need your approval of my time machine that moves sideways in time and remains in the present moment always.


a mi me gustan los "shrimp" pero el pimiento habanero me cae mal; de que uso es un "time machine" que se queda en el presente? por favor no llamen al genio arkigos.


le pido perdón a mi familia hispana por mi español.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> a mi me gustan los "shrimp" pero el pimiento habanero me cae mal; de que uso es un "time machine" que se queda en el presente? por favor no llamen al genio arkigos.
> 
> 
> le pido perdón a mi familia hispana por mi español.


To me, I like giant shrimp but habanero pepper makes me fall bad? What is the use of a time machine that arrives in the present? And please don't call to the genie Arkigos

Yo tomo(?) Español Tres pero yo no sé como(?) escribir bueno(?)

Wow three years of Spanish has made my Spanish so great yay. I have a horrible accent.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> To me, I like giant shrimp but habanero pepper makes me fall bad? What is the use of a time machine that arrives in the present? And please don't call to the genie Arkigos
> 
> Yo tomo(?) Español Tres pero yo no sé como(?) escribir bueno(?)
> 
> Wow three years of Spanish has made my Spanish so great yay. I have a horrible accent.


I'm legit laughing and my face is in agony

[Edit] I like shrimp but habanero peppers don't agree with me. What use is a time machine that stays in the present? Please don't call the genius Arkigos.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@SugarPlum do you think you would be a 4 core?


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Haha, I find other judging functions very difficult to relate to personally than perceiving functions for some reason...
> 
> 
> Oh no, I've just spent way too much time studying and thinking... but thanks
> 
> Well, Se isn't just about experiences, but it prefers to experience things directly rather than hypothesise about them. An example is how my ESFP mum was just asking me about what I wanted for dinner tomorrow and I wasn't sure so asked what she was having. She said 'I don't know. It's not tomorrow yet.' then proceeded to list everything there was in the house.
> 
> An Se user can be in their head, of course, but unlike Ne users, who are mostly happy to think about situations or experiences, they do want to actually experience things and so are more likely to do things (think of the common stereotype of an ISTP taking a machine apart or an ISFP painting - those are 'in your head' to an extent, but it's also doing something). I don't think a staring at pavements is really indicative of type. Did you mean something more by that?


I meant I was supposed to be staring at the scenery and experiencing how beautiful the trees were. Alas I'm not an Ne user 

Still don't relate to Se. I hate doing labs and I'm not a good drawer or take aparter. I can do my sport though but I'm not doing it as much anymore 

I don't think there's such thing as too much studying and thinking


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm legit laughing and my face is in agony
> 
> [Edit] I like shrimp but habanero peppers don't agree with me. What use is a time machine that stays in the present? Please don't call the genius Arkigos.


I was so right in my translation. 

And you were the one who tagged him! This logical fallacy makes me have no sympathy for your agonized face


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I was so right in my translation.
> 
> And you were the one who tagged him! This logical fallacy makes me have no sympathy for your agonized face


This is true. At least I have ice


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> @SugarPlum do you think you would be a 4 core?


I go back and forth between 4 and 6 as my core.


----------



## Max

angelcat said:


> ... wasn't it you who first proposed the idea? =P


Well, I was going along with you guys and your suggestions and thinking/building/reflecting on it  



shinynotshiny said:


> @angelcat I wonder if others see the same :tongue:
> 
> @LuchoIsLurking I thought you were the one to suggest SFJ, then we concluded you're extroverted :laughing:


See above ^ Nah, but really. Do you think that is why I had difficulting finding that I used Fe? What about Ni? Is that unconscious too, or am I just confused? Is that why I am having difficulty finding it?


----------



## orbit

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Well, I was going along with you guys and your suggestions and thinking/building/reflecting on it
> 
> 
> 
> See above ^ Nah, but really. Do you think that is why I had difficulting finding that I used Fe? What about Ni? Is that unconscious too, or am I just confused? Is that why I am having difficulty finding it?


It's so obvious it's staring in your face? It's the glasses on your nose but you keep on looking around the room for your lenses


----------



## Dangerose

(I've somehow lost the thread of this thread and can't tell if we're all supposed to be doing this mini-questionnaire or what but I'm in a weirdly good mood so I want to try it. Under spoiler in case I wasn't supposed to.)


* *





*Who are you? *

Me. I could tell you the symbols I have in my head that seem to define my essence: I am a dark burgundy color, I am the girl in the center of the labyrinth, or some other things that I've seen myself in: I am the cat that walks by myself and all places are alike to me, I am the little girl who has a little curl right in the middle of her forehead? but it won't be meaningful to anyone but me.

I guess where I'm from defines who I am for me in an essential sort-of way.

I never know how to answer this question. I once wrote some words to a song: "My soul is a leaf on the river, looking up at the sky without words to wonder why; then all my life is all I can't remember." That is the best way I have ever managed to express how I feel about my self.



> When you are at your best, what is your personality like?


I'm really clean, we can define how well my life is going by how clean I am. I'm very full of energy, I'll have lots of projects going and I'll do them, I'm very focused and prayerful, I treat everyone with a lot of attention and care. For instance, the last time my family went on vacation I cleaned the whole house, rearranged everything, painted the kitchen cabinets, wrote a novel, watched all the Disney movies, did a bizarre amount of baking and cooking, and was exercising/dancing like every day; I lost almost 10 pounds I think. 


> What do you show other people on a regular basis?


My beautiful face.
Ok, to strangers: I'm really quiet and unassuming, your typical awkward shrinking violet type. ALTHOUGH sometimes I'll be on some great role and be very sociable and easy. It helps if I'm in a totally different country or something and the stakes seem low, and I'm able to make up a whole new persona and possibly just flat-out lie about myself, if it's in my hometown I'm afraid to risk saying something stupid or something.

Like, I don't know, if I'm in Paris -- well, I don't have a 'life' in Paris (I don't have a life anywhere else but) no one I knows lives there, I can be whoever I want, I don't feel like people have any expectation of me, so if I want to talk to random people on the street or...whatever, they aren't thinking, "But how can I reconcile this with what I know of her?" so I can be cool, whereas in my hometown, or just in places where I have family or something, I feel like I have to 'be myself' which is . . . quiet and awkward. 

Does that make sense? I know it sounds ridiculous, but, the point is, the people in my 'real life' think I'm very quiet and awkward, I think total strangers in other places may see me as quite a bit more socially fluent, more open and dynamic, and much more interesting.

Within my family:
My father sees me as very sullen and moody and I think a lot more...naive, I guess, than I actually am. I don't know how this happened, I think as a child he read my 'thinking' face as a sullen face and would ask me to be cheerful, but I didn't like being a walking smilie face so I avoided him somewhat, which made me more moody in his view, and unwilling to open up so I only brought up really shallow conversational topics, which...yeah, it's weird. The other day he was talking about my interests and he was like, "Well, you're interested in questions like what names people associate with what personalities, or what time period people would want to live in, and stuff"...which...those are the conversational topics I end up bringing up with him, but I never thought these would be taken as my deepest and most abiding interests. 

My friends and other family members...I think they see me as I see myself, though through the lens of their priorities and such.



> What do you keep hidden from them?


Strangers...almost everything, because I'm so stuck in my shrinking violet role.

Friends...I guess I don't really tell them what's going on in my life, like I'll tell them the facts but...I rarely tell them what I'm feeling or thinking, not because it's a secret or anything, I would tell them if they asked, but it usually feels irrelevant and I don't want to be an emotional parasite and we're usually doing 'our' thing. But I think they know the core of who I am; they're just not usually updated on who I have a crush on or my plans for the future (just my fake plans for the future) or how depressed/happy I am. It just doesn't come up.

My mother and brother: almost nothing. They're my confidantes; I would only hide something if it was really embarrassing or something.


> What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?


IDK. I'm verbose. If I don't know how to express something, I'll just keep trying until the message gets got.



> What do you want to do with your life?


Achieve immortality.
I mean, I don't know. This question tends to freak me out because it reminds me how short life is and how easily summarized one life can be.
I guess I want to get married, have children, and experience everything I could experience, use every jot of talent I have (not bury my talents but invest them) be left without regrets or roads I wish I would have travelled. I want to achieve finality, to feel like when I die there was a meaning, a sense, an overall arc, a sense of completeness.
And I want to fulfill God's will for me and grow close to Him.
And help other people and all that.



> What are your two most defining traits?


ummm...
young and bored.

Yeah, I don't know. That's for other people to decide.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> (I've somehow lost the thread of this thread and can't tell if we're all supposed to be doing this mini-questionnaire or what but I'm in a weirdly good mood so I want to try it. Under spoiler in case I wasn't supposed to.)
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Who are you? *
> 
> Me. I could tell you the symbols I have in my head that seem to define my essence: I am a dark burgundy color, I am the girl in the center of the labyrinth, or some other things that I've seen myself in: I am the cat that walks by myself and all places are alike to me, I am the little girl who has a little curl right in the middle of her forehead? but it won't be meaningful to anyone but me.
> 
> I guess where I'm from defines who I am for me in an essential sort-of way.
> 
> I never know how to answer this question. I once wrote some words to a song: "My soul is a leaf on the river, looking up at the sky without words to wonder why; then all my life is all I can't remember." That is the best way I have ever managed to express how I feel about my self.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you are at your best, what is your personality like?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really clean, we can define how well my life is going by how clean I am. I'm very full of energy, I'll have lots of projects going and I'll do them, I'm very focused and prayerful, I treat everyone with a lot of attention and care. For instance, the last time my family went on vacation I cleaned the whole house, rearranged everything, painted the kitchen cabinets, wrote a novel, watched all the Disney movies, did a bizarre amount of baking and cooking, and was exercising/dancing like every day; I lost almost 10 pounds I think.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you show other people on a regular basis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My beautiful face.
> Ok, to strangers: I'm really quiet and unassuming, your typical awkward shrinking violet type. ALTHOUGH sometimes I'll be on some great role and be very sociable and easy. It helps if I'm in a totally different country or something and the stakes seem low, and I'm able to make up a whole new persona and possibly just flat-out lie about myself, if it's in my hometown I'm afraid to risk saying something stupid or something.
> 
> Like, I don't know, if I'm in Paris -- well, I don't have a 'life' in Paris (I don't have a life anywhere else but) no one I knows lives there, I can be whoever I want, I don't feel like people have any expectation of me, so if I want to talk to random people on the street or...whatever, they aren't thinking, "But how can I reconcile this with what I know of her?" so I can be cool, whereas in my hometown, or just in places where I have family or something, I feel like I have to 'be myself' which is . . . quiet and awkward.
> 
> Does that make sense? I know it sounds ridiculous, but, the point is, the people in my 'real life' think I'm very quiet and awkward, I think total strangers in other places may see me as quite a bit more socially fluent, more open and dynamic, and much more interesting.
> 
> Within my family:
> My father sees me as very sullen and moody and I think a lot more...naive, I guess, than I actually am. I don't know how this happened, I think as a child he read my 'thinking' face as a sullen face and would ask me to be cheerful, but I didn't like being a walking smilie face so I avoided him somewhat, which made me more moody in his view, and unwilling to open up so I only brought up really shallow conversational topics, which...yeah, it's weird. The other day he was talking about my interests and he was like, "Well, you're interested in questions like what names people associate with what personalities, or what time period people would want to live in, and stuff"...which...those are the conversational topics I end up bringing up with him, but I never thought these would be taken as my deepest and most abiding interests.
> 
> My friends and other family members...I think they see me as I see myself, though through the lens of their priorities and such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you keep hidden from them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Strangers...almost everything, because I'm so stuck in my shrinking violet role.
> 
> Friends...I guess I don't really tell them what's going on in my life, like I'll tell them the facts but...I rarely tell them what I'm feeling or thinking, not because it's a secret or anything, I would tell them if they asked, but it usually feels irrelevant and I don't want to be an emotional parasite and we're usually doing 'our' thing. But I think they know the core of who I am; they're just not usually updated on who I have a crush on or my plans for the future (just my fake plans for the future) or how depressed/happy I am. It just doesn't come up.
> 
> My mother and brother: almost nothing. They're my confidantes; I would only hide something if it was really embarrassing or something.
> 
> 
> 
> What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> IDK. I'm verbose. If I don't know how to express something, I'll just keep trying until the message gets got.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you want to do with your life?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Achieve immortality.
> I mean, I don't know. This question tends to freak me out because it reminds me how short life is and how easily summarized one life can be.
> I guess I want to get married, have children, and experience everything I could experience, use every jot of talent I have (not bury my talents but invest them) be left without regrets or roads I wish I would have travelled. I want to achieve finality, to feel like when I die there was a meaning, a sense, an overall arc, a sense of completeness.
> And I want to fulfill God's will for me and grow close to Him.
> And help other people and all that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are your two most defining traits?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ummm...
> young and bored.
> 
> Yeah, I don't know. That's for other people to decide.
Click to expand...

Very nice. 

Okay, I have a question. .. how content are you with INFP?


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Very nice.
> 
> Okay, I have a question. .. how content are you with INFP?


Not totally convinced. Totally open to that being contested.
What do you think?

edit: It clicks I guess. I feel like some of my problems with my father, for instance, can be explained with the Fi vs Fe conflicts. I think a lot of people who knew me would immediately think "INFP" if they knew MBTI. I'm not totally convinced about Fi (though I wonder if the more stereotypically Fi traits were trained out of me (which would be a good thing) or if I may not have the 'typical' Fi as it tends to look in 21st century America, I've never been on board with the whole 'be yourself' 'express what is uniquely you' nonsense, but...I can relate it to myself. I'm also not convinced of Ne over Si although I can really see it being true. I'm not in love with the INFP profile to be honest...but I think it's because of stereotypes and because I'm comparing myself to unhealthy INFPs.

Writing the above questionnaire made me doubt it though. Seemed more SFJ...maybe. I'm unsure. I'm also not sure I'm not Ne-dom. So much uncertainty.

I would not object to anyone challenging or confirming my type. Right now I am settling into it and finding it interesting, but I'm not 100% sure and having someone either contest or confirm my analysis would make me feel a little more grounded.

\


----------



## Darkbloom

My answers because I haven't done any questionnaires for a frighteningly long time

*Who are you?**
I'm adaptable,I'm many people at once but always very me,if that makes sense.

Around my friends and boyfriend I'm the fun,spontaneous,crazy person who doesn't care about rules,or laws for that matter
In high school I was someone who said what literally everyone thought so I was viewed as a bit bitchy.

Around my family,hmm,the cute one who can do no wrong I guess,still haha,and I bring out my dad's inner SFJ
Except with my mother,to her I'm both that and someone she in a way admires and wants to impress.
But I'm also a huge enigma,because I'm very different from both of my parents, I'm not "misunderstood" but the fact is they struggle to understand my motives.
With my 6 year old cousin I'm STRICT,I'm the one she listens to,I'm the one who tells her "No,you can't watch the cartoons now" when my grandma wants to watch TV,I'm the one who makes her bring herself what she wants instead of bugging people,etc.With 14 year old cousin I guess I always was a sort of a role model,but also competition when it comes to family,she gets very jealous.
With my grandpa I go along with his tertiary Ne haha,I'm the only one who tolerates it and even kinda likes it,others are like "Shut up!" and I'm the one defending him.

With my teachers I was always the good girl,but not really defined by my work as much as by my politeness and respectfulness


*When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*
Fun,confident,playful,warm,loving,dreamer but still a bit strict and critical and always slightly too self-obsessed both in potentially good and bad way,you could say both princessy and deep at the same time.Everything I do has a meaning and when I do something for you it's a big deal because I'm not doing it on autopilot,it has an actual meaning.

*What do you show other people on a regular basis?*Lately it's been bad things,love of conflict and arguing because we haven't been doing too well.I often just argue for the sake of arguing or act very cold,purposelly giving minimal answers.
With friends it's different though,I'm never like that,I try to show them more positive parts of myself.

*What do you keep hidden from them?*
I don't feel like I keep things to myself but I know I do.Lol,been told here I'm not being open and I'm being so honest here.
Like,dad doesn't like how I never show vulnerability or "share myself".With friends they are the ones who talk about real problems and I just drop hints or say outrageous things for fun but dont really open up I guess?Not sure what really opening up means though.
Anyway,with family I hide,well,literally lie about what I'm doing and what I'm planning on doing.

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*Don't think I find it hard to put it in words,but I make sure to word things appropriately so it sometimes feels like it.I try to make things sound different than they are sometimes.

*What do you want to do with your life?*
Be everything I've been till now times 1000
And maybe have someone write my biography
And I want to have a child and a perfect husband
And I want a beautiful house and one of those huge walk in closets filled with expensive clothes
I want my life to be something others want for themselves

*What are your two most defining traits?*
Traits mean nothing,like,one word description,could mean anything
I'm both the most and the least kind and the most and the least selfless person depending how you define it


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very nice.
> 
> Okay, I have a question. .. how content are you with INFP?
> 
> 
> 
> Not totally convinced. Totally open to that being contested.
> What do you think?
> 
> edit: It clicks I guess. I feel like some of my problems with my father, for instance, can be explained with the Fi vs Fe conflicts. I think a lot of people who knew me would immediately think "INFP" if they knew MBTI. I'm not totally convinced about Fi (though I wonder if the more stereotypically Fi traits were trained out of me (which would be a good thing) or if I may not have the 'typical' Fi as it tends to look in 21st century America, I've never been on board with the whole 'be yourself' 'express what is uniquely you' nonsense, but...I can relate it to myself. I'm also not convinced of Ne over Si although I can really see it being true. I'm not in love with the INFP profile to be honest...but I think it's because of stereotypes and because I'm comparing myself to unhealthy INFPs.
> 
> Writing the above questionnaire made me doubt it though. Seemed more SFJ...maybe. I'm unsure. I'm also not sure I'm not Ne-dom. So much uncertainty.
> 
> I would not object to anyone challenging or confirming my type. Right now I am settling into it and finding it interesting, but I'm not 100% sure and having someone either contest or confirm my analysis would make me feel a little more grounded.
> 
> \
Click to expand...

Okay, ummm... here is the thing (i am sure many will throw tomatoes at me), I have NEVER had the Si vibe from you nor from your answers. I think high Ne, but now... I am totally thinking I misunderstood it. I think it is Se, and I think you have high Ni. I was always such an advocate for NFP, but that is bec everyone insisted on Si. Ummm, yeah... sorry, but I think you are Ni/Se. I just do. The judging axes? Yeah, I go back and forth. Before this post, i swore on Fi. But you showed more of a low order Fe to me, here. At least aux. Not sure. Sorry to add to any confusion. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## Persephone Soul

So the family is just chillin' in the living room. Then randomly, the 2-cents paid , from the husband;

"You're definitely a 'spacer'. That's for sure."

LOL


----------



## 68097

Goodness, @Oswin. You're an NFJ.



Oswin said:


> *Who are you? *
> 
> Me. I could tell you the symbols I have in my head that seem to define my essence: I am a dark burgundy color, I am the girl in the center of the labyrinth, or some other things that I've seen myself in: I am the cat that walks by myself and all places are alike to me, I am the little girl who has a little curl right in the middle of her forehead? but it won't be meaningful to anyone but me.
> 
> I guess where I'm from defines who I am for me in an essential sort-of way.
> 
> I never know how to answer this question. I once wrote some words to a song: "My soul is a leaf on the river, looking up at the sky without words to wonder why; then all my life is all I can't remember." That is the best way I have ever managed to express how I feel about my self.


Ni.



> I'm really clean, we can define how well my life is going by how clean I am. I'm very full of energy, I'll have lots of projects going and I'll do them, I'm very focused and prayerful, I treat everyone with a lot of attention and care. For instance, the last time my family went on vacation I cleaned the whole house, rearranged everything, painted the kitchen cabinets, wrote a novel, watched all the Disney movies, did a bizarre amount of baking and cooking, and was exercising/dancing like every day; I lost almost 10 pounds I think.


Typical J behavior, maybe even Je (ENFJ). 



> Ok, to strangers: I'm really quiet and unassuming, your typical awkward shrinking violet type. ALTHOUGH sometimes I'll be on some great role and be very sociable and easy. It helps if I'm in a totally different country or something and the stakes seem low, and I'm able to make up a whole new persona and possibly just flat-out lie about myself, if it's in my hometown I'm afraid to risk saying something stupid or something.
> 
> Like, I don't know, if I'm in Paris -- well, I don't have a 'life' in Paris (I don't have a life anywhere else but) no one I knows lives there, I can be whoever I want, I don't feel like people have any expectation of me, so if I want to talk to random people on the street or...whatever, they aren't thinking, "But how can I reconcile this with what I know of her?" so I can be cool, whereas in my hometown, or just in places where I have family or something, I feel like I have to 'be myself' which is . . . quiet and awkward.
> 
> Does that make sense? I know it sounds ridiculous, but, the point is, the people in my 'real life' think I'm very quiet and awkward, I think total strangers in other places may see me as quite a bit more socially fluent, more open and dynamic, and much more interesting.


Fe.



> Within my family:
> My father sees me as very sullen and moody and I think a lot more...naive, I guess, than I actually am. I don't know how this happened, I think as a child he read my 'thinking' face as a sullen face and would ask me to be cheerful, but I didn't like being a walking smilie face so I avoided him somewhat, which made me more moody in his view, and unwilling to open up so I only brought up really shallow conversational topics, which...yeah, it's weird. The other day he was talking about my interests and he was like, "Well, you're interested in questions like what names people associate with what personalities, or what time period people would want to live in, and stuff"...which...those are the conversational topics I end up bringing up with him, but I never thought these would be taken as my deepest and most abiding interests.
> 
> My friends and other family members...I think they see me as I see myself, though through the lens of their priorities and such.
> 
> Strangers...almost everything, because I'm so stuck in my shrinking violet role.
> 
> Friends...I guess I don't really tell them what's going on in my life, like I'll tell them the facts but...I rarely tell them what I'm feeling or thinking, not because it's a secret or anything, I would tell them if they asked, but it usually feels irrelevant and I don't want to be an emotional parasite and we're usually doing 'our' thing. But I think they know the core of who I am; they're just not usually updated on who I have a crush on or my plans for the future (just my fake plans for the future) or how depressed/happy I am. It just doesn't come up.
> 
> My mother and brother: almost nothing. They're my confidantes; I would only hide something if it was really embarrassing or something.


One giant block of Fe, in my opinion.



> Achieve immortality.
> I mean, I don't know. This question tends to freak me out because it reminds me how short life is and how easily summarized one life can be.
> I guess I want to get married, have children, and experience everything I could experience, use every jot of talent I have (not bury my talents but invest them) be left without regrets or roads I wish I would have traveled. I want to achieve finality, to feel like when I die there was a meaning, a sense, an overall arc, a sense of completeness.
> And I want to fulfill God's will for me and grow close to Him.
> And help other people and all that.


IMO -- Ni/Se and Fe.


----------



## 68097

Living dead said:


> My answers because I haven't done any questionnaires for a frighteningly long time
> 
> *Who are you?**
> I'm adaptable,I'm many people at once but always very me,if that makes sense.
> 
> Around my friends and boyfriend I'm the fun,spontaneous,crazy person who doesn't care about rules,or laws for that matter
> In high school I was someone who said what literally everyone thought so I was viewed as a bit bitchy.
> 
> Around my family,hmm,the cute one who can do no wrong I guess,still haha,and I bring out my dad's inner SFJ
> Except with my mother,to her I'm both that and someone she in a way admires and wants to impress.
> But I'm also a huge enigma,because I'm very different from both of my parents, I'm not "misunderstood" but the fact is they struggle to understand my motives.
> With my 6 year old cousin I'm STRICT,I'm the one she listens to,I'm the one who tells her "No,you can't watch the cartoons now" when my grandma wants to watch TV,I'm the one who makes her bring herself what she wants instead of bugging people,etc.With 14 year old cousin I guess I always was a sort of a role model,but also competition when it comes to family,she gets very jealous.
> With my grandpa I go along with his tertiary Ne haha,I'm the only one who tolerates it and even kinda likes it,others are like "Shut up!" and I'm the one defending him.
> 
> With my teachers I was always the good girl,but not really defined by my work as much as by my politeness and respectfulness
> 
> 
> *When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*
> Fun,confident,playful,warm,loving,dreamer but still a bit strict and critical and always slightly too self-obsessed both in potentially good and bad way,you could say both princessy and deep at the same time.Everything I do has a meaning and when I do something for you it's a big deal because I'm not doing it on autopilot,it has an actual meaning.
> 
> *What do you show other people on a regular basis?*Lately it's been bad things,love of conflict and arguing because we haven't been doing too well.I often just argue for the sake of arguing or act very cold,purposelly giving minimal answers.
> With friends it's different though,I'm never like that,I try to show them more positive parts of myself.
> 
> *What do you keep hidden from them?*
> I don't feel like I keep things to myself but I know I do.Lol,been told here I'm not being open and I'm being so honest here.
> Like,dad doesn't like how I never show vulnerability or "share myself".With friends they are the ones who talk about real problems and I just drop hints or say outrageous things for fun but dont really open up I guess?Not sure what really opening up means though.
> Anyway,with family I hide,well,literally lie about what I'm doing and what I'm planning on doing.
> 
> *What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*Don't think I find it hard to put it in words,but I make sure to word things appropriately so it sometimes feels like it.I try to make things sound different than they are sometimes.
> 
> *What do you want to do with your life?*
> Be everything I've been till now times 1000
> And maybe have someone write my biography
> And I want to have a child and a perfect husband
> And I want a beautiful house and one of those huge walk in closets filled with expensive clothes
> I want my life to be something others want for themselves
> 
> *What are your two most defining traits?*
> Traits mean nothing,like,one word description,could mean anything
> I'm both the most and the least kind and the most and the least selfless person depending how you define it


You kind of give me Fi/Te and Se/Ni vibes in general. Have you ruled out ESFP?


----------



## Darkbloom

angelcat said:


> You kind of give me Fi/Te and Se/Ni vibes in general. Have you ruled out ESFP?


My Se is definitely not above tertiary
Hmm,I'm really starting to consider Te lol


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Goodness, @Oswin. You're an NFJ.
> 
> 
> 
> Oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Who are you? *
> 
> Me. I could tell you the symbols I have in my head that seem to define my essence: I am a dark burgundy color, I am the girl in the center of the labyrinth, or some other things that I've seen myself in: I am the cat that walks by myself and all places are alike to me, I am the little girl who has a little curl right in the middle of her forehead? but it won't be meaningful to anyone but me.
> 
> I guess where I'm from defines who I am for me in an essential sort-of way.
> 
> I never know how to answer this question. I once wrote some words to a song: "My soul is a leaf on the river, looking up at the sky without words to wonder why; then all my life is all I can't remember." That is the best way I have ever managed to express how I feel about my self.
> 
> 
> 
> Ni.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really clean, we can define how well my life is going by how clean I am. I'm very full of energy, I'll have lots of projects going and I'll do them, I'm very focused and prayerful, I treat everyone with a lot of attention and care. For instance, the last time my family went on vacation I cleaned the whole house, rearranged everything, painted the kitchen cabinets, wrote a novel, watched all the Disney movies, did a bizarre amount of baking and cooking, and was exercising/dancing like every day; I lost almost 10 pounds I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Typical J behavior, maybe even Je (ENFJ).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, to strangers: I'm really quiet and unassuming, your typical awkward shrinking violet type. ALTHOUGH sometimes I'll be on some great role and be very sociable and easy. It helps if I'm in a totally different country or something and the stakes seem low, and I'm able to make up a whole new persona and possibly just flat-out lie about myself, if it's in my hometown I'm afraid to risk saying something stupid or something.
> 
> Like, I don't know, if I'm in Paris -- well, I don't have a 'life' in Paris (I don't have a life anywhere else but) no one I knows lives there, I can be whoever I want, I don't feel like people have any expectation of me, so if I want to talk to random people on the street or...whatever, they aren't thinking, "But how can I reconcile this with what I know of her?" so I can be cool, whereas in my hometown, or just in places where I have family or something, I feel like I have to 'be myself' which is . . . quiet and awkward.
> 
> Does that make sense? I know it sounds ridiculous, but, the point is, the people in my 'real life' think I'm very quiet and awkward, I think total strangers in other places may see me as quite a bit more socially fluent, more open and dynamic, and much more interesting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Within my family:
> My father sees me as very sullen and moody and I think a lot more...naive, I guess, than I actually am. I don't know how this happened, I think as a child he read my 'thinking' face as a sullen face and would ask me to be cheerful, but I didn't like being a walking smilie face so I avoided him somewhat, which made me more moody in his view, and unwilling to open up so I only brought up really shallow conversational topics, which...yeah, it's weird. The other day he was talking about my interests and he was like, "Well, you're interested in questions like what names people associate with what personalities, or what time period people would want to live in, and stuff"...which...those are the conversational topics I end up bringing up with him, but I never thought these would be taken as my deepest and most abiding interests.
> 
> My friends and other family members...I think they see me as I see myself, though through the lens of their priorities and such.
> 
> Strangers...almost everything, because I'm so stuck in my shrinking violet role.
> 
> Friends...I guess I don't really tell them what's going on in my life, like I'll tell them the facts but...I rarely tell them what I'm feeling or thinking, not because it's a secret or anything, I would tell them if they asked, but it usually feels irrelevant and I don't want to be an emotional parasite and we're usually doing 'our' thing. But I think they know the core of who I am; they're just not usually updated on who I have a crush on or my plans for the future (just my fake plans for the future) or how depressed/happy I am. It just doesn't come up.
> 
> My mother and brother: almost nothing. They're my confidantes; I would only hide something if it was really embarrassing or something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One giant block of Fe, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Achieve immortality.
> I mean, I don't know. This question tends to freak me out because it reminds me how short life is and how easily summarized one life can be.
> I guess I want to get married, have children, and experience everything I could experience, use every jot of talent I have (not bury my talents but invest them) be left without regrets or roads I wish I would have traveled. I want to achieve finality, to feel like when I die there was a meaning, a sense, an overall arc, a sense of completeness.
> And I want to fulfill God's will for me and grow close to Him.
> And help other people and all that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> IMO -- Ni/Se and Fe.
Click to expand...

omgggggg i about jumped outta my chair when i read this, angelcat! 

YESSSSS. I thought this originally, but kept it t myself. But I just couldn't NOT say anything after that post! Wholey cow, right?!


----------



## Darkbloom

@angelcat where do you see Te though,other than Fi/Te vibe?
If I'm a T I'd say I'm ExTP rather than any sort of Te user


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> omgggggg i about jumped outta my chair when i read this, angelcat!
> 
> YESSSSS. I thought this originally, but kept it t myself. But I just couldn't NOT say anything after that post! Wholey cow, right?!


Bet that was a sight to see.



Living dead said:


> @angelcat where do you see Te though,other than Fi/Te vibe?
> If I'm a T I'd say I'm ExTP rather than any sort of Te user


It's more, I don't particularly see Ni/Se in you, and you don't give me Fe-dom vibes. Short answers. To the point. No nonsense. Not ruminating abstractions like the other Ni/Ti's on this thread. Speaks to Te, in my opinion, but I guess it could be Ti/Fe.


----------



## Max

I just had a massive revelation. I literally had my question answered. Remember how I was talking about the time I was convinced I was going to metapmorph into a dragonfly when I was depressed? I just watched a documentary about metamorphosis in humans and animals, and to be fair, I think that dragonfly symbollism that haunted me for a month meant that I was undergoing a metamorphosis. Heck, I even figured this is why I am scared of insects, especially dragonflies. Afraid of changing, metamorphosis. Becoming a different person to the one I am used to being. Adulthood. Coming out of my larvae. Growing. Learning. Flying away. Courting. Forming a family of my own. Providing. Growing old. Dying. It all seems scary. But it's the circle of life. It has to happen, y'know?

Sorry, had to share that with you guys. It seems like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders now I get it.


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> Goodness, @Oswin. You're an NFJ.
> 
> 
> 
> Ni.
> 
> 
> 
> Typical J behavior, maybe even Je (ENFJ).
> 
> 
> 
> Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> One giant block of Fe, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO -- Ni/Se and Fe.


No no wait ahhhh am I being thrown off the Ne/Si axis? Could I be a magical NFJ at heart?)
I'm starting to get whiplash) Can anyone else see this? (besides @SugarPlum, and by the way, if anyone else is having thoughts in the: "YESSSSS. I thought this originally, but kept it to myself" area, for whatever type it may be, can they bring them forward _now_ just so it's all out there?)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Abandoning the internet has resulted in a startling amount of unread notifications. I will get to those later (especially @shinynotshiny's request to explain why I believe @Oswin is an ISFJ, not INFP) due to the allure of a questionnaire! I love filling these out.


* *




*Who are you?*

There are many ways in which I can answer this question. I can rattle of the facts on my birth certificate, I can describe the biological functions and parts I possess that allow me to be classified as a human being, I can describe my aspirations or the activities I typically indulge in, or I can provide typical descriptions people associate me with. Generally I struggle to answer this question, particularly because I'm not where I want to be, and I can imagine I would be different if I were, and describing myself is prone to bias. I suppose... I am questioning yet empathic, curious yet prone to frustration when I cannot articulate the passages answering the questions I am acquiring. I am a chameleon yet driven by independence. I am, like most people, complex, multifaceted, and contradictory; I say I am one thing, and then next thing you know I am fickle and describing myself as another thing. I am also serious and rigid as a default. Sarcasm and a live and let live attitude helps.

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*

I am calm and chill, and not overly uptight, or I am curious and inquiring, or helpful. Or productive and accomplishing. Peace maker sort of thing tends to be my default when in a good mood. This depends on which "positive Lexi" mode the situation triggers.
*What do you show other people on a regular basis?*

Depends on the person. When regarding people I typically align myself to what would be suitable or expected... what a person would like or not like, and what I think a person would judge and what they would understand. Is this individual a boss, a parent or a friend? Just depends on the person, their role, and anything I perceive about that person and what would best fit based on my observations.

*What do you keep hidden from them?*

See above. Typology, for example, is brought up if I think the person will engage in it, and how they will respond to my personal theories. I've only know a couple of people I know offline I've disclosed this interest to based on this personal criteria.

If I will be judged, I will remain secretive. If a dire consequence awaits (aka confrontation), I will zip my lips.

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*

I can't... recall examples off the top of my head. I know when something is difficult to describe. Essay papers are a challenge because my ideas or opinions cannot always be expressed within the guidelines provided. Essays are stifling. Anything I do not have knowledge of can only be put into words with techno babble. Some things... just cannot be described. I don't have a label or explanation, so I cannot be of help here.

*What do you want to do with your life?*

Summer break yay but I want to become a psychologist, mainly a practicing one, but conducting studies and research would be interesting too. I want to connect with people however, which is why I would enjoy being in practice. I want to get married. Children will be an afterthought and not of importance, but if decided upon, adoption is the only option I am willing to consider. I want to move to Portland when substantial funds are a thing, and live in an apartment decorated in vintage things. I suppose I want to discover things, and connect with others, and contribute if possible. To change the world would be ideal. I want to learn, explore and experience life, encounter most of what I want to engage myself in (I would need to be immortal in order for that to happen), and above all, die accomplished, successful and happy, with no regrets and nothing to lament. Do what I want I suppose.

*What are your two most defining traits?*

Self perception will bias any purity or accuracy but I suppose:

I am emotional, but also try to be reasoned. Logos and Pathos are the devil and angel residing on my shoulder, patronizing me to pick a side on a regular basis, and it is not always fun.

I am perfectionistic, unless I am being lazy due to apathy or dwindling frustration. This allows me to be exceedingly hard upon myself and to cry defeat over a mistake or difficulty with math comprehension. Also constitutes my anxious predisposition. I am my own worst enemy and my expectations are difficult to achieve. Wee.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Lol sorry. Well, this was when i first 'met' you. THEN , the whole crew (including you) was so set on Si/Ne. So I thought there was something i missed. I NEVER got the ESFJ thing. But kept it to myself, because I hate it when people tell me I am something or not something. And you seemed sure (on Si). I did however see Ne. But now, looking back, I think i was giving your Se that title, because of your travel and adventurous nature. I do remember asking if ISFP was a possibility in your thread you recently started. I started to get the Ni/Se vibe again. And I was thinking Fi. But, wholey cow. Ni girl. INFJ 

I do love how I completely flopped functions lol.


----------



## Greyhart

I've been thinking 279 tritype for you for some time.



alittlebear said:


> The privileged one. Share your secrets.


1. Be a type cliche.
2. ???
3. Profit!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

* *






madhatter said:


> 279 Peacemaker Archetype
> 
> 279
> 
> As a nine, I hate conflict. It's unbearbale when someone gives me the silent treatment, is angry or withdraws. Especially if I had a loving friendship before and when it hugely matters to me. I really like to bring things in the open and get things resolved. Talk things through. See where it went wrong. I do this without criticism. Though when somebody has hurt me and things have bottled up for a long time I can be very critical, precise and to the point. That's before a conversation to get things resolved where I couldn't control my outburst. Because it unsettles me and makes me sad. Then I can move forward again. When I try to discuss the situation I keep it light. Do not want to feel pain. I want things to be on the same level and harmonious as before and we do not need to delve deep, no need to dwell on the negatives. And let's forget about it. I will acknowledge my errors and empathise, even when I sometimes know I do this more then I should. I think the above is my 7 tritype. I think 4 is not the other tritype as I do not feel envious. It's not a passion or drive so to speak. Any input would be appreciated, thanks.
> 
> Have you ever taken the enneacards test on enneagram.net? It will help you identify your heart center, or at least give you somewhere to start.
> 
> From what you've described above I would guess you had 2 in the heart center, with two positive outlook types (2 and 7) and the 9 there is a need to keep things positive, a driving need almost or else it is unbearable. The criticality and bottling up phenomena could be due to the 9 in charge, and the 1 wing, as well as the social subtype who all are prone to a sort of indignant, critical anger.
> 
> Here's what Katherine wrote:
> 
> If you are a 279, you are caring, innovative and accepting. You want to be helpful, upbeat and peaceful. You are very kind and tend to see the best in others, focusing on easy and comfortable ways of relating. You hate conflict and/or strife and use your sense of humor to smooth out difficulties.
> 
> Your life mission is to create and promote smooth and harmonic ways to handle conflict. A true peacemaker, you are happiest when you can ease tension and help others get along with one another.
> 
> You can be so identified with keeping life free of conflict and negativity that you may turn a blind eye to conflicts that need to be managed as opportunities for change.
> 
> *Most optimistic tritypes-279, 729, 927
> 279...positive
> 
> This tritype [927] is the most identified with seeing themselves as peaceful. More than any other tritype, they need peace and positive relating to experience a sense of being... so are extremely uncomfortable with negativity in relationships. The 479 doesn't like it but expects it. It also brings the 937 tritype which is the true ambassador of goodwill.
> 
> If you have the sexual instinct as dominant you could easily identify with 974. The 972 is less ethereal and more focused on being positive. The 974 knows that they feel unhappy, they are more inclined to hide so that they will not be rejected for being negative.
> 
> The super positive types 279 and 379, report that they try to get thru grief as quickly as possible, especially if self-pres.
> 
> Yes, there is more than one positive Tritype. The super positive Tritypes are the 279, the 379. The 279 is a the Tritype that wants comfortable, easy relating. The 2 brings a greater emphasis on people.This is the 2ish caring, people oriented 7 or 9. The 379 is even more upbeat and positive. The 3 brings more of an emphasis on achievements. For example this is the professional, 3ish 9 or 7.
> 
> All of the 79 combinations are somewhat positive. The 279 is focused on being pleasant. The 379 the most positive. The 479 Is positive outwardly but doesn't always feel it.
> 
> 2-7-9 - The Positivist
> 
> Characterized by unbridled optimism. They don't allow anything to get them down, and they love to enjoy themselves by surrounding themselves with great company and fun atmospheres. They may be a bit unrealistic however.
> 
> a person could be the 927 or "The Peacemaker" Tritype, and after utilizing the dominant Type 9 strategies the person may move to their lines of connection (Type 3 and Type 7) as well as to their possible wings (Type 1 and Type 8). However, if these connections are not effective for the person, they may move to Type 2 and become more helpful, effusive and relational, and then move subsequently to Type 7 to utilize positive reframing, escapism or future planning in order to achieve desirable results.
> 
> From what you've described above I would guess you had 2 in the heart center, with two positive outlook types (2 and 7) and the 9 there is a need to keep things positive, a driving need almost or else it is unbearable. The criticality and bottling up phenomena could be due to the 9 in charge, and the 1 wing, as well as the social subtype who all are prone to a sort of indignant, critical anger.
> 
> Trying to keep a positive outlook at all times. (9-2-7)
> 
> 2-9s - They avoid admitting that they have a (completely) negative image (and avoid anything that may lead to such a state). They're ultimate fear is that they have a completely "black" image and are unable to escape it. They enter a strong state of denial when this occurs. This isn't necessarily because of the Two side, but much rather because the 9 side can't handle such a reality and thus this kind of Two is more likely to withdraw into a more "positive" perspective of themselves. It's much nicer and much more comforting that way.







Quoted so I can ponder on it again.


----------



## Dangerose

@alittlebear I haven't seen any reason to doubt 9w1 for you; I think a 2 would be more...direct, I guess, you have a very broad-minded comfortable 9 thing going on from what I've seen of you. Do you identify with the vices of 9?
(no clue about the rest, just my two cents)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Isn't 279 like the epitome of the positive outlook triad

Or am I misunderstanding.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Isn't 279 like the epitome of the positive outlook triad
> 
> Or am I misunderstanding.


Aw, you don't want to be positive, having a negative outlook on life has you appreciate the truly great stuff. :kitteh:


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear

Have you tried this quiz yet? I found it helpful in figuring out my tritype (be sure to read the dark side and light side sections).

If you want to skip to the 279 archetype profile: Here your go


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> Living dead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whats going on here?
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, just go with it. Usually the best thing to do while on this thread.
Click to expand...


Right?! Hah!

and hoopla, omg! Love. Lol

Greyhart, JEALOUS!


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Do you know what the 9's driving force would be?
> 
> Let me go take another look at 972 again.
> 
> (And thank you for your help by the way  )


From http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/117739-summation-enneagram-motivations.html



> Type 9
> Basic Fear: Of loss and separation
> Basic Desire: To have inner stability "peace of mind"
> 
> Key Motivations: Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them.
> 
> Holy Idea: Love
> Vice: Indifference
> Virtue: Serenity
> Basic Drive: Peace


Note: not really convinced about the indifference thing. I think it is more of a reluctance to disturb the peace.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> Have you tried this quiz yet? I found it helpful in figuring out my tritype (be sure to read the dark side and light side sections).
> 
> If you want to skip to the 279 archetype profile: Here your go


Wait, what's this? How have I missed this. Where do you get these things?! :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay, I'm having a jumble of thoughts, so hear me out. 

Tagging @Oswin and @Greyhart even though you're right here because I think this is sort of in response to your posts, it goes along with that. 

But like 

I don't like to think of myself as so conflict avoidant, so plagued by conflict avoidance

Like



> Your life mission is to create and promote smooth and harmonic ways to handle conflict. A true peacemaker, you are happiest when you can ease tension and help others get along with one another.


This is an example. Like. It's so conflict-driven! 

I would never identify my purpose in life as to "create and promote smooth and harmonic ways to handle conflict". That's my first thought. I want to help people. I want to make the world a better place. I want to ease pain, I want to make a change, I want to improve quality of life and throw more love into the world. There are a lot of ways I could throw words at the shiny yellow of what I want to do in life... but "smooth and handle conflict" would never be one of those things I would include. 

But
Okay that's my first reaction but maybe one thing important to me is smoothing conflict? I'm not sure about this so don't totally jump on board with it but like, okay 

I want to study religion. I want to synthesize ideas, put into words and study how the religions connect... and this is inspired because I've always been able to see how religions talk about the _same things_, the same exact things, but they don't see it and they think they're so different but it's like okay you're talking about the same thing in different terms and like???
And yes, that is a bit academia driven, but it's also conflict-avoidant. Because you know what my big-picture reason would be for putting all that study into religions and proving my point? _because I'm sick of people hurting each other for having different beliefs and it's my hope that by starting to the first trek to showing how religions are alike it will save people pain and conflict _

Or like. I mean I could go through my plans. I could do teaching, how that's conflict avoidant, I could do my story, how that's conflict avoidant

But the overall thing with all of my goals and dreams is I want people to be _kinder_ to each other. I want my story to ultimately inspire people to understand love better as I do, yes, but also to SHOW it more, share it and experience this pure joy that love really does bring. Others want to teach to get their political agenda across, to enlighten, to kill ignorance... me, I really just want to teach children to be kind. To care. To not hurt each other, to value one another, to learn how to love themselves and find themselves but also how to stretch out and touch others with their joyful, warm hearts. (Bless the Fi users in my classes am I right) 

I even thought. I mean, one thing I do want to do is _practical_ changes. People need freshwater. I want to bring the freshwater. Help find the access. But even then... When I picture the idea of what I want, in this little vision of what I feel would make me feel as if I had made the greatest difference in such a community, I see a harmonious environment with people helping and loving one another. Being selfless while embracing themselves. 

And... I identify this as kindness, but I think it could also be seen as peacefulness and conflict avoidance. I dream of a world where everyone gets along, and while I know it's impossible, I strive in action, thought, and dream to make such a universe a reality. 

That's a bit long and rambled and ill thought but

Yeah?

Like at first thought I shudder at how obsessed with non-conflict E9 and tritype 279 comes across but with a deeper thought like maybe this could explain my life. But really idk


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> Have you tried this quiz yet? I found it helpful in figuring out my tritype (be sure to read the dark side and light side sections).
> 
> If you want to skip to the 279 archetype profile: Here your go


That one give me either "Pirate" 7*w8* 3 8 or "Outlaw" 7*w8* 4 8 SP/SX or SX/SP.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Aw, you don't want to be positive, having a negative outlook on life has you appreciate the truly great stuff. :kitteh:


That wasn't my thought, I was just trying to find it out. 

It is weird though because even though internally I honestly do have a negative outlook on life people _still_ fault me for being too positive and optimistic? Even when all the hope has gone out of me, they still think I'm overflowing with it. 

And honestly having a triple positive type could explain a lot of stuff like that. Why my optimism and positivity is too much of a defining trait for me. Why looking at the bright side has usually been second nature for me. Why... well, a lot of things, really.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Wait, what's this? How have I missed this. Where do you get these things?! :laughing:


I have mad research skills


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> Have you tried this quiz yet? I found it helpful in figuring out my tritype (be sure to read the dark side and light side sections).
> 
> If you want to skip to the 279 archetype profile: Here your go


I'm actually pretty familiar with that quiz, yes  Usually it gives me 952 but I'll try it again.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> Is this to me, about my 'all I can't remember' thing? If so, I like that, but I'm not sure it's the same as what I meant. Which is...just exactly that, I'm not sure how to express it better -- actually, maybe it is what you said, like, life is made of these concrete events, you could easily summarize a life, like I said before, but those things aren't generally important, the vital things are the mortar, not the bricks, if the bricks are actual events that happen and the mortar is something else, things that _don't_ happen.
> I think when I was writing that line I was going for a particular feeling, like looking into the distance...not a particular meaning. Or I was thinking of things that you literally can't remember, because they're not rememberable or forgetable, that just exist or only exist when you aren't thinking.
> 
> Does that make any sense? It's really a very specific concept in my head...could it be Ni?
> I think your above ISFJ analysis is good, and I've taken it into account; ISFJ's still one of the principal cards on the table for me, but I'm not entirely convinced.


Yes, it was meant to be a response to you, and I failed to tag you appropriately 

I think the inability to describe or explain your perceptions is just Pi dom in general. Or alternatively, the story of my life.

Why would we need the mortar to be the mortar? Could we substitute for cement instead? 

Ha, your explanation is so simplified but I like it... I overthink my interpretations allowing the obvious to not exist within my peripheral vision... I am half blind. Anyway I've also thought about why certain memories cannot be recalled, but you at least fathom and remember their existence.... it's like seeing a grave and knowing this means a dead body lies amongst the dirt of the earth; an image symbolized this distinction, but you cannot say who died or why... you just know they did. I may encounter a song and know I've heard it before, but I cannot tell you when... though I know some specific event led me to my knowledge of it.


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> That one give me either "Pirate" 7*w8* 3 8 or "Outlaw" 7*w8* 4 8 SP/SX or SX/SP.


I initially got 541 "The Alchemist". But I played around, read the different profiles, and eventually narrowed it down to 479 "The Dryad" or 471 "The Oracle"

One reason I like it is I think the descriptions are more coherent and that the archetype names generally make more sense.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I have done this one before a long time ago and got the same. There is no doubt on my Enneagram. It is the easiest system for me to find myself in. I go back and forth between 4 and 6 as my core. This one has me at 6w5, but last time it was 4w5 for core. And I know 8 is my last. I also know i am SX/SP.

To a T (again). I got "Berserker" (Strength, Passion, Security). Aka 468 the Truth Teller.
https://www.justinmind.com/usernote.../screens/47e71f18-be88-4cc8-ad05-78a4d0b5291f


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom decided to be quirky this time and think about the answers with a different mindset, lol 








It's a fun quiz, but it's easy to mess up (especially when you've done it a few times and are feeling the lightest bit rebellious).


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I have mad research skills


Oh god, Sailor Moon. :frustrating:

Seriously, though, this quiz has awesome production value, reminds me of those Magic the Gathering ones. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> That wasn't my thought, I was just trying to find it out.
> 
> It is weird though because even though internally I honestly do have a negative outlook on life people _still_ fault me for being too positive and optimistic? Even when all the hope has gone out of me, they still think I'm overflowing with it.
> 
> And honestly having a triple positive type could explain a lot of stuff like that. Why my optimism and positivity is too much of a defining trait for me. Why looking at the bright side has usually been second nature for me. Why... well, a lot of things, really.


Well, if my input is valid at all, you seem like a 9, although that could be your Ni bleeding through. :happy: But I'm not really familiar with Enneagram beyond the basics, so I'll let more experienced minds take a gander.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I don't feel adequate at explaining my reasoning, so unless I genuinely have something to contribute or argue (or to be torn apart or corrected) my thoughts remain ambiguous hehe. You'll never know!
> 
> Yes, @arkigos will lurk, I'll hope for a reply.... and zip, nada, zilch. Ha.



I MUST know. You have denied me an explanation too long, hoopla. Too long!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> I agree with all of this
> 
> Btw bear,would you agree with so/sx for your instincts?


Yes. It's difficult to put into words, but I think SX has a fair influence over me. And I grow more assured it seems of my social instinct with each passing day.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> I initially got 541 "The Alchemist". But I played around, read the different profiles, and eventually narrowed it down to 479 "The Dryad" or 471 "The Oracle"
> 
> One reason I like it is I think the descriptions are more coherent and that the archetype names generally make more sense.


"Outlaw" 784 fits me better I think. Not sure about w8, tho. BUT I don't connect with type 4 description in general. I don't strongly connect with any heart triad tbh.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> "Outlaw" 784 fits me better I think. Not sure about w8, tho. BUT I don't connect with type 4 description in general. I don't strongly connect with any heart triad tbh.


Outlaw would be quite fitting for The Raccoon


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> "Outlaw" 784 fits me better I think. Not sure about w8, tho. BUT I don't connect with type 4 description in general. I don't strongly connect with any heart triad tbh.


I've had that trouble with the body triad. My response to 8, 9, _and_ 1 is "well sort of...but not really". It'd be great if I could take two from the head triad instead.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I MUST know. You have denied me an explanation too long, hoopla. Too long!


Perhaps the two of you could make a trade. She would give you her opinion on your Pi. You could explain how she seems un-5 to you. 

(Just a light joke -- I cannot bargain on @hoopla's behalf -- but I would be interested on further elaboration on how she does not seem 5 to you.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I've had that trouble with the body triad. My response to 8, 9, _and_ 1 is "well sort of...but not really". It'd be great if I could take two from the head triad instead.


(You seem kind of very 9w1 to me in a soft influence sort of way)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> (You seem kind of very 9w1 to me in a soft influence sort of way)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Haha, yeah, which is why I tend to say that, I'm less comfortable with debating someone's Enneagram type, as, unlike MBTI, I need to clarify what specific types mean, since they're not ingrained into my memory unlike cognitive functions. One day, I'll actually research into it. :wink:
> 
> Well, actually, I'd associate 9 with the duo of Fe and Ni, since they share a lot of traits, even though I usually associate Fe with 2. And by Ni bleeding through, I mean that, usually, the dominant function is the one you see the most of, until it paves the way for the auxiliary to be shown in an unaltered fashion. From your rants about ableism and altruism, that's what makes me think Ni. :happy:


I just wanted to say this comforted me a little.  So many people associate Type 9 with Fi! And I can see why - in many ways it is the classic _do no harm to others_, which reminds me of how @shinynotshiny has described Introverted Feeling - but I still think that E9 could also work with Fe. Peace. Smooth conflict. Ease people's lives. Serve. Think not of yourself. Be swallowed in not thinking of yourself. Could be Fi, of course, but also could be Fe.  

Honestly, that's one of my biggest concerns, the largest part of why I am so hesitant to be ENFJ 9. It's so unusual. Almost unheard of. Very unlikely. I've felt like _something_ in that combination had to be incorrect. 

Also, the pairing of 'ableism and altruism' made me smile. Would make a good SJ blog banner


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Perhaps the two of you could make a trade. She would give you her opinion on your Pi. You could explain how she seems un-5 to you.
> 
> (Just a light joke -- I cannot bargain on @hoopla's behalf -- but I would be interested on further elaboration on how she does not seem 5 to you.)



On a serious note, I'm awake because ow. I'll explain best in the morning or possibly three days. For now I'll say she doesn't seem withdrawn enough and although she is intellectually curious, it doesn't seem to be what drives her in life.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> 6w5 actually
> 
> I don't think I'm a 2... I think I have 2 in me, but I don't think it's my predominate stacking or however the hell enneagram works. I don't take this super seriously so. Anyway 2 is probably in my tritype at least. I definitely can relate to 1, for what it's worth. Maybe I'm 2w1 after all.
> 
> Which do you think fits me better, and why?


Those archetypes (test-wise) seem to be tritype based rather than just point you towards set-in-stone main type? What's Counselor's tritype?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny fair enough. 

But are you alright? Whatever is the matter, please get a good rest and do what you must to feel better ^^


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I just wanted to say this comforted me a little.  So many people associate Type 9 with Fi! And I can see why - in many ways it is the classic _do no harm to others_, which reminds me of how @shinynotshiny has described Introverted Feeling - but I still think that E9 could also work with Fe. Peace. Smooth conflict. Ease people's lives. Serve. Think not of yourself. Be swallowed in not thinking of yourself. Could be Fi, of course, but also could be Fe.
> 
> Honestly, that's one of my biggest concerns, the largest part of why I am so hesitant to be ENFJ 9. It's so unusual. Almost unheard of. Very unlikely. I've felt like _something_ in that combination had to be incorrect.
> 
> Also, the pairing of 'ableism and altruism' made me smile. Would make a good SJ blog banner


Glad to be of service. :kitteh:










But yeah, the Fi stereotypes are annoying. Fi, to me, seems more like a 4 function than anything else, whereas Ni seems so like 9. Tranquility. Calmness. Serenity. That and 3 are the two Enneagram numbers that seem Ni to me. 

Hey, did you hear? Apparently if you're an ESTP and not Enneagram 8, you're a freak. :laughing: Though I do have 8 in my tritype somewhere, it's certainly not first. :wink: I wouldn't worry if your Enneagram doesn't fit with your MBTI, they're two different systems analysing two different cores of you. :happy:

Haha, I actually meant that as a joke. Still, would be a good banner for the _Guardians_. :dry:


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @shinynotshiny fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> But are you alright? Whatever is the matter, please get a good rest and do what you must to feel better ^^



What I must do to feel better involves seeing unicorns. 

Thank you, Bear. You're always the sweetest.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> I've had that trouble with the body triad. My response to 8, 9, _and_ 1 is "well sort of...but not really". It'd be great if I could take two from the head triad instead.


I connect with 8 and 1 BUT I think 1 is 7 disintegrating under stress "MY WORKS MUST BE PERFECT!!1" *moves a thing 1 pixel to the left under 3000% zoom*. 9 is all association with depression and anxiety which is why I initially thought I could be one based on years I had those.

And then there's heart triad and I am like... I like being liked, I like bling and I like idea of being special?..


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> What I must do to feel better involves seeing unicorns.







Hopefully that's not a bit too light (or... perhaps... dark). Do what you have to do to find your unicorns in life, in any case.


----------



## Greyhart

I prefer those guys


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I prefer those guys


Honestly, same. Even as I fetched that Charlie the Unicorn video I was thinking lustfully about the llamas.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

But this is my favorite thing like in the world 






And the rest are pretty good too


----------



## Dangerose

Enneagram...it feels like taking a simple thing and making it complicated. I'm sure it's great when you know what's going on, but there are so many combinations and variations and weird things that it feels like...what's the point?

And the other thing is, Enneatypes are almost like something you're supposed to overcome. So what if you do? Can you be typeless, then, or do you switch over to your second biggest fault or something? What if you're the Perfect Individual?

MBTI feels much more clarifying. Confusing, but clarifying.

though, I'm pretty sure of my Enneagram type yet all the MBTI types are running screaming through my brain in total anarchy so I don't even know


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Enneagram...it feels like taking a simple thing and making it complicated. I'm sure it's great when you know what's going on, but there are so many combinations and variations and weird things that it feels like...what's the point?
> 
> And the other thing is, Enneatypes are almost like something you're supposed to overcome. So what if you do? Can you be typeless, then, or do you switch over to your second biggest fault or something? What if you're the Perfect Individual?
> 
> MBTI feels much more clarifying. Confusing, but clarifying.
> 
> though, I'm pretty sure of my Enneagram type yet all the MBTI types are running screaming through my brain in total anarchy so I don't even know


I felt the same way when I first started getting into it, but now I think I prefer enneagram to mbti (if only because I am fairly sure of my type, ha!)

I don't think the goal is to "overcome"—not exactly.; rather, the goal is to integrate the positive aspects of the connected types and reach one of the higher stages of your type's health as outlined by Riso & Hudson.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> But this is my favorite thing like in the world


WHAT









14 min of my life what is this


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> I felt the same way when I first started getting into it, but now I think I prefer enneagram to mbti (if only because I am fairly sure of my type, ha!)
> 
> I don't think the goal is to "overcome"—not exactly.; rather, the goal is to integrate the positive aspects of the connected types and reach one of the higher stages of your type's health as outlined by Riso & Hudson.


Ugh, yeah. I need to just closet myself up with Enneagram and figure the whole thing out properly)


----------



## Greyhart

If basing on those tritype descriptions 478 and 379 fit me better than 378 but I don't think I am 9 in my anger management? But 478 sounds like a legit major special snowflake ego stroking to me. I'm not that awesome. 479 is def not me.


378
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ype-archetype-descriptions-3.html#post1808385

379
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ype-archetype-descriptions-3.html#post1808389

478
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ype-archetype-descriptions-3.html#post1808403


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> If basing on those tritype descriptions 478 and 379 fit me better than 378 but I don't think I am 9 in my anger management? But 478 sounds like a legit major special snowflake ego stroking to me. I'm not that awesome. 479 is def not me.
> 
> 
> 378
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ype-archetype-descriptions-3.html#post1808385
> 
> 379
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ype-archetype-descriptions-3.html#post1808389
> 
> 478
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ype-archetype-descriptions-3.html#post1808403


Haha yeah. I had the same reaction when I considered 478. It is the triple-creative type, so it's probably inevitable that some of the descriptions will get like that. 

How do you deal with anger?


----------



## Greyhart

Advanced Enneagram Personality Test

Type 1 Perfectionism |||| 20%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||| 20%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Type 4 Individualism |||||||||||||||||| 72%
Type 5 Intellectualism |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 6 Security Focus |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||||||| 80%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||||||| 68%
Type 9 Calmness |||||| 28%

Your main type is Type 7
Your variant stacking is sp/sx/so
Your level of health is average 

:dry:

3w4?

Also 7w8 maybe my main? I see to get it in most tests...


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> Haha yeah. I had the same reaction when I considered 478. It is the triple-creative type, so it's probably inevitable that some of the descriptions will get like that.
> 
> How do you deal with anger?


My dealing with anger results in many suggestions that I should take anger management courses. >_>' I burst out. The whole "line in the sand, cross it - you dead" that I got from 8 seems fitting.


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Enneagram...it feels like taking a simple thing and making it complicated. I'm sure it's great when you know what's going on, but there are so many combinations and variations and weird things that it feels like...what's the point?
> 
> And the other thing is, Enneatypes are almost like something you're supposed to overcome. So what if you do? Can you be typeless, then, or do you switch over to your second biggest fault or something? What if you're the Perfect Individual?
> 
> MBTI feels much more clarifying. Confusing, but clarifying.
> 
> though, I'm pretty sure of my Enneagram type yet all the MBTI types are running screaming through my brain in total anarchy so I don't even know
> 
> 
> 
> I felt the same way when I first started getting into it, but now I think I prefer enneagram to mbti (if only because I am fairly sure of my type, ha!)
> 
> I don't think the goal is to "overcome"—not exactly.; rather, the goal is to integrate the positive aspects of the connected types and reach one of the higher stages of your type's health as outlined by Riso & Hudson.
Click to expand...

Me too!

and exactly.


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> My dealing with anger results in many suggestions that I should take anger management courses. >_>' I burst out. The whole "line in the sand, cross it - you dead" that I got from 8 seems fitting.


Haha sounds like 8 it is. If you didn't feel alienated by the description on the fantasy archetype quiz I would got with "the outlaw". but how do you feel about 3 vs 4?

(fyi: I'm going to try to get some sleep so it may be awhile before I respond, unless insomnia persists.)


----------



## Barakiel

Do you guys get annoyed by the stereotypical classifications types are given? Let's use mine as an example, _The Doer_. Uh, yeah, no, thanks. Sure, I'll disagree with you on things because I think it'll be fun, and I love brawling, but I'm more than likely going to play video games than do sport, cause escapism is awesome. :laughing:


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> 7. Hm... Do I have defining traits? I guess I tend to express myself through extremes of sounding like I'm stating facts vs putting 'probably' or 'maybe' before everything. Another one... Maybe how I speak in a sort of broken way? Kind of fractured sentences and I have a fairly monotone voice unless very excited about something.
> I'm not sure if those are traits, really, or just weak points. In myself, I mostly notice that I have an over-powering imagination that I can't express through language (but give a good imitation of it through writing).


ARGH YES WHY



tine said:


> I really dont like saying things and then realising its not exactly what I meant and having to go back on it (Ive had that happen when I was working on expressing myself -yay therapy- and someone accused me of lying because I changed what I was saying after, so now I try not to say anything if Im not 90% sure it wont be misinterpreted).


Oh I hate that! Sometimes I try and get it wrong a few times and it's like, why can't you people just ABSORB my intentions?! This whole putting-things-into-words is so tiresome. That's why I write so much... it's kind of like shooting in all different directions at once, in the hope that one bullet might actually strike its target. 

Soul images? Darkish, muted, cool blues/greens/purples. The moon. Silver. The meeting of water and air and earth. Forest and lakes. Felines (especially cats, jaguars, snow leopards, lions), owls, raven/crow. Rustic, vintage. Glitter and satin. 



fair phantom said:


> Other things: some of my deepest emotions or desires/dreams I haven't processed yet. The reasonings behind some of my positions if someone has made fun of me for over-thinking. I often conceal my initial emotional or judgmental reactions. I don't want to be hypersensitive or excessively irrational or unfair. I need to determine whether or not my initial reaction is justified before I decide whether or not it is worth addressing. Opinions/positions that have caused conflict in the past and where there seems to be an impasse. I am somewhat reluctant to discuss my religious and spiritual views with people who don't seem open-minded. Some of my stances that are too nuanced or complex to be communicated easily, because people might jump on something I said before I've finished and misinterpret me.


YES YES ALL THE YES



> My feelings in their entirety. Sometimes I can find words to "sketch" them out, but it is hard to show them complete and they often come to me as images, colours, music. My value system (since in a ways it seems like some sort of higher math problem that has some consistent processes but produces different results based on the variables), my ever-evolving religious and spiritual views.


This is similar to how I've described Fi. Not sure if it's pure Fi or Fi-Ne though. 

I like to think of MBTI as the "how" and Enneagram as the "why" of people's minds. So I see value in both systems. I'm not really into conflating functions with types, so "this is a really uncommon combination" isn't a good reason to _reject_ a typing, in my opinion. But at the same time I think some type combinations are more common than others. 
@SugarPlum honestly, I think your 8 gut fix (especially if that 6 fix is cp!) is enough to explain why you don't come across as passive like the INFP descriptions. You wouldn't be the only INFP on this forum who's that reactive. I'm kind of stereotypical with the 9 fix but at the same time I do feel harder and colder and more raw than the stereotypes... I don't think it comes across to others though.


----------



## Persephone Soul

(((Oswin))) ...or anyone else interested. This is a good link. Tell me what you think. 
http://www.personalityhacker.com/infp-vs-infj/


----------



## Persephone Soul

ElliCat.. yup. 4, 6, 8s are the most emotional reactive (one way or another). I admit, this is true. Lol


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> Haha sounds like 8 it is. If you didn't feel alienated by the description on the fantasy archetype quiz I would got with "the outlaw". but how do you feel about 3 vs 4?
> 
> (fyi: I'm going to try to get some sleep so it may be awhile before I respond, unless insomnia persists.)


Well, why not 3:

I'm lazy.
I don't really set goals.
Unmotivated to _actually_ achieve stuff.
I'd love to just run around doing fun stuff for the rest of my life.
^Type 7. I can't really relate to being goal-oriented, very competitive or "achiever" stereotype.

For negative parts.

Image focus totally there.
Attention seeking.
May back-stab for personal success.
Vanity totally there.
Dress to impress.

For 4, why not:

Emotionally aware and all that crap not for me.
Not that super focused on "unique" part of image.
More of "flamboyant" show-off.
Have aversion to calling myself special snowflake with conflicting desire to be one.

For negative part:

Do dress up intentionally weird just to go against norm
Fuck norm in general.
Conflicting desire to be a special snowflake but more publicly acknowledged likeable special snowflake.
Can feel hesitant to express full range of "weird".

____________________

This seems like 3w4. So 378 Pirate/Mover & Shaker but tritype description is all "yeaaah badass anarchist break everything set goals get result". I'm more off "YEAAAAAH AGGRESSIVELY LOOKS FOR FUN".









... Yeah, heart 3 fits the best. Image focus. 738? 783? That's the most common combo for ENTPs. Holy shit the only way I could be more cliched ENTP if I were Sp last.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> (((Oswin))) ...or anyone else interested. This is a good link. Tell me what you think.
> INFP vs INFJ: 5 Surprising Differences To Tell Them Apart : Personality Hacker


It seems good, but neither sounds like me. (Also, I feel like all the INxx types are really hard to get genuine information on since everyone thinks they are one when they first start MBTI so 90% of Internet posts about them are by complete MBTI newbies...and every other link is on how special and unique and misunderstood they are. Which makes research frustrating.)
Ugh. You know, just yesterday I thought I had finally found my type) and now...not so much. you and angelcat turned the tables in a very unexpected and unsettling way)
I'm going to sleep on it; maybe things will sort themselves out)
Are you 100% on being an INFP?
edit: not doubting it, just trying to catch up


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> It seems good, but neither sounds like me. (Also, I feel like all the INxx types are really hard to get genuine information on since everyone thinks they are one when they first start MBTI so 90% of Internet posts about them are by complete MBTI newbies...and every other link is on how special and unique and misunderstood they are. Which makes research frustrating.)
> Ugh. You know, just yesterday I thought I had finally found my type) and now...not so much. you and angelcat turned the tables in a very unexpected and unsettling way)
> I'm going to sleep on it; maybe things will sort themselves out)
> Are you 100% on being an INFP?
> edit: not doubting it, just trying to catch up


INFPs are outwardly intuitive and forceful in their way of thinking. INFJs are inwardly doubting and preach social morality to others. :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> Soul images? Darkish, muted, cool blues/greens/purples. The moon. Silver. The meeting of water and air and earth. Forest and lakes. Felines (especially cats, jaguars, snow leopards, lions), owls, raven/crow. Rustic, vintage. Glitter and satin. [/QUOTE[
> 
> Lovely
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is similar to how I've described Fi. Not sure if it's pure Fi or Fi-Ne though.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I would be really interested in how Fi with Se & Ni compares.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to think of MBTI as the "how" and Enneagram as the "why" of people's minds. So I see value in both systems. I'm not really into conflating functions with types, so "this is a really uncommon combination" isn't a good reason to _reject_ a typing, in my opinion. But at the same time I think some type combinations are more common than others.
> @SugarPlum honestly, I think your 8 gut fix (especially if that 6 fix is cp!) is enough to explain why you don't come across as passive like the INFP descriptions. You wouldn't be the only INFP on this forum who's that reactive. I'm kind of stereotypical with the 9 fix but at the same time I do feel harder and colder and more raw than the stereotypes... I don't think it comes across to others though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Completely agree.
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> (((Oswin))) ...or anyone else interested. This is a good link. Tell me what you think.
> INFP vs INFJ: 5 Surprising Differences To Tell Them Apart : Personality Hacker
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I really like this post, especially because it counters the whole "infps can't be empathetic or understand how anyone else feels" BS. the synchronous/asynchronous dichotomy seems dead-on to me when I compare my reactions with the infj. For example: when watching a movie/tv show where someone is suffering, he will be _way_ more affected as it is happening, sometimes having to leave the room. But minutes, hours, even long after I will _still_ be feeling it. (I may be an ENFP but it still seems similar.
> 
> @Greyhart Yeah you seem slightly more 3 than 4...3w4 fix, but it is probably last?
Click to expand...


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Do you guys get annoyed by the stereotypical classifications types are given? Let's use mine as an example, _The Doer_. Uh, yeah, no, thanks. Sure, I'll disagree with you on things because I think it'll be fun, and I love brawling, but I'm more than likely going to play video games than do sport, cause escapism is awesome. :laughing:


In a word: YES.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> In a word: YES.


Yay! Let's make all the ESFJs military officers who abuse their recruits and the INFJs delusional extremists who sacrifice people for a wasted belief. *BREAK ALL STEREOTYPES!* :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

I was cooking and realized that I strongly associate ISTPs with hackers rather than Indiana Jones and mechanics. If NSA is reading this it's definitely not because I know one or anything. In fact I don't know anyone who violates any digital international laws at all. Myself included.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> IMO but for ennea type it's probs better to just look at each "domain" and look how you deal with corresponding emotion shame/fear/anger than just read by tritype descriptions. :S


Nobody cares about your opinion


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Nobody cares about your opinion


854 response ^


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Ooh, goody.
> 
> I would actually say JD was ESFP, perhaps, although I didn't know her too well. Jayclaw was very Fi, yes... INFP, honestly, but with her it could be hard to tell. I used to think Moth was an Fe-dominant, but now that I'm an Fe-dominant I'm not too sure at all. Lily could have been EFJ?
> 
> Still no idea what Frosty is. She thinks ENFP because she relates to Anna in Frozen. I still think ISTx fits nicely.


INFP? 
Hm... I can see it

I related to JD a lot and from what I remember our personalities were pretty similar. But that might be biased 

I think Moth was an unhealthy Fe dom?


----------



## Adena

guys is it possible that I'm an INFP the fuck

I need the help of @TelepathicGoose and @Oswin, xNFPs help me out!


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> 379 tritype? (The very last one.)





> 379, 739, 937 - The Ambassador: You like people and are outgoing, even if you are a bit shy. *Shy?*You are easygoing and seek comfort but strive for success and a feeling of personal importance. *Mhm*You are identified with what you do and achieve, but are soft, gentle, and kind. *Soft and gentle?*Your life mission is to find compassionate and effective ways to create change and bridge differences. *Bridge differences?*A true ambassador of good will, you are happiest when you can help others become harmonious, build rapport, and develop their potential.*how do I help people.* Your blind spot is that you can be so focused on what is positive that you can miss the wisdom that comes from experiencing and understanding negative emotions and end up creating conflict by avoiding it. *I am a cynic. No but eh. *Your growing edge is to recognize that your need ot keep the peace at all costs and be what others want you to be to feel successful keeps you from knowing yourself. True self-awareness comes from listening to your higher self and being fully present in the moment.*Se demands I'm in the moment *
> 
> This tritype [927] is the most identified with seeing themselves as peaceful. *No. *More than any other tritype, they need peace and positive relating to experience a sense of being... so are extremely uncomfortable with negativity in relationships. The 479 doesn't like it but expects it. It also brings the 937 tritype which is the true ambassador of goodwill.
> 
> The super positive types 279 and 379, report that they try to get thru grief as quickly as possible, especially if self-pres.
> 
> Yes, there is more than one positive Tritype. The super positive Tritypes are the 279, the 379. The 279 is a the Tritype that wants comfortable, easy relating. The 2 brings a greater emphasis on people.This is the 2ish caring, people oriented 7 or 9. The 379 is even more upbeat and positive. The 3 brings more of an emphasis on achievements. For example this is the professional, 3ish 9 or 7.
> 
> All of the 79 combinations are somewhat positive. The 279 is focused on being pleasant. The 379 the most positive. The 479 Is positive outwardly but doesn't always feel it.
> 
> Calling all 379s. You all report the need to be upbeat, positive and easygoing...*Sure can see it. *but you want to make a difference and be a part of something meaningful. *Science.* You are all embracing and look for the good in people and the gold and the end of the rainbow.* I don't know how to respond to this. * You are good at mediating problems but prefer to avoid negativity and negative situations. *Doesn't everyone?* Most say that they see the glass have full. In your search for happiness you can turn a blind eye to problems.*I have no problems because I'm a privledged teenager in general. *
> 
> Calling all 379s. One Enneagram friend with the 379 Tritype said that she was a rainbow person. *I am perfectly fine with being negative. *I liked this term as all of the 379s report that it feels uncomfortable to be negative. This Tritype that feels it is important to be upbeat. One 379 said down feelings and negativity feel like acid rain. Another said she is solar powered and needed the energy from the sun and positive encounters.
> 
> 479 and 379 I have deemed the "cool guy" tritypes. When 4 is there you get that sort of archetype of the cool artist, laid back, playful, witty, but with a sort of "hidden sorrow". *This is making me uncomfortable. * You sense there is more there but that they are keeping you at bay in order to avoid dipping too much into the swamp.*I will dive into the swamp*


Bold


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gray Romantic said:


> guys is it possible that I'm an INFP the fuck
> 
> I need the help of @TelepathicGoose and @Oswin, xNFPs help me out!


Oh dear. 

I'll post to subscribe and notify a few people.


----------



## Adena

alittlebear said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> I'll post to subscribe and notify a few people.


I'm sorry >< I'm horrible and my indecisiveness should be shamed


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gray Romantic said:


> I'm sorry >< I'm horrible and my indecisiveness should be shamed


Shame, Grey Romantic. How dare you come to my 600-page topic that is still lightly discussing my Pi _after 600 pages_ and ask that some thought instead be given to your type.


----------



## orbit

Gray Romantic said:


> I'm sorry >< I'm horrible and my indecisiveness should be shamed


Lol I've been taken up the stage for the past three pages

And alittlebear has been indecisive for three years now. 

I hate you


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> IMO but for ennea type it's probs better to just look at each "domain" and look how you deal with corresponding emotion shame/fear/anger than just read by tritype descriptions. :S


I agree. They are worth looking at, but they shouldn't be all you look at. Or descriptions in general. It is important to get to the essence of each type to really understand. For example:



> ❝Sevens can get into conflicts by being impatient, irresponsible, and excessive. Sevens tend to focus on their positive expectations for satisfaction and fulfillment. Sevens are in fact fleeing from a threatening internal world and seeking security in the external world. If Sevens slow down, their minds may be drawn into the inner world of grief, sadness, and disappointment. Their quick minds avoid dealing with conflict and problems through distraction and constant activity. Sevens do not typically internalize their experiences; they remain somewhat unattached to people and things. In conflict, Sevens can quickly discard things and cancel commitments (ie., the needs of others) without feelings of regret. It is easier to move on to happier things than to stay with things that depress. Sevens tend to reject the needs of others in favour of fulfilling their own.


I do not like this description. I would never have gone with 7 as my head type based on this, because it is a description that can only hope to suit extraverts. My recommended starting point would be Timeless' descriptions.
@laurie17 I'd be careful about going with 459. It is a common mistype for introverts since it is triple withdrawn. So by picking that one, it basically says that your response to...just about everything...is to withdraw. I'm not saying you aren't a 459/549, but it is something to keep in mind 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/113783-guide-narrowing-down-your-enneagram-type-using-triads.html

I had trouble with the "unique" thing too. Especially because I am turned off by "special snowflake" nonsense. But I realized that even though that isn't how I think about it, having a distinct identity was a concern I had once, and now I frame it more as authenticity. I think all people are unique—or they are meant to be, and this will come about if they are authentic/genuine, and don't stress out too much about fitting in _or_ being "different" (since that often winds up being another form of conformity). Also I do withdraw into my imagination/emotions/self expression when ashamed, and I take comfort in getting in touch with myself and reminding me of my particular combination of qualities. So I am a 4.

At least I think I am. :kitteh:

(note: sorry if I make no sense. I didn't sleep).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> INFP?
> Hm... I can see it
> 
> I related to JD a lot and from what I remember our personalities were pretty similar. But that might be biased
> 
> I think Moth was an unhealthy Fe dom?


I think I had problems with a lot of people because of Fi vs Fe difference honestly 

Except maybe Moth 

But like. Me and President M. Fi vs Fe. (But she thinks she's an INTP, sigh.)


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Nobody cares about your opinion


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


>


Or your GIFs


----------



## fair phantom

Jem


----------



## Immolate

Good morning, world.










I will do the @hoopla 5 thing now.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> I do not like this description. I would never have gone with 7 as my head type based on this, because it is a description that can only hope to suit extraverts. My recommended starting point would be Timeless' descriptions.


It looks very accurate to me but I am extrovert so, yeah.



> @laurie17 I'd be careful about going with 459. It is a common mistype for introverts since it is *triple withdrawn*. So by picking that one, it basically says that your *response to...just about everything...is to withdraw*. I'm not saying you aren't a 459/549, but it is something to keep in mind


:laughing:











> I had trouble with the "unique" thing too. Especially because I am turned off by "special snowflake" nonsense. But I realized that even though that isn't how I think about it, having a distinct identity was a concern I had once, and now I frame it more as authenticity. I think all people are unique—or they are meant to be, and this will come about if they are authentic/genuine, and don't stress out too much about fitting in _or_ being "different" (since that often winds up being another form of conformity). Also I do withdraw into my imagination/emotions/self expression when ashamed, and I take comfort in getting in touch with myself and reminding me of my particular combination of qualities. So I am a 4.
> 
> At least I think I am. :kitteh:


"Authenticity" doesn't appeal to me either since my focus is largely in outside world.



> (note: sorry if I make no sense. I didn't sleep).


:| *pat*


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I think I had problems with a lot of people because of Fi vs Fe difference honestly
> 
> Except maybe Moth
> 
> But like. Me and President M. Fi vs Fe. (But she thinks she's an INTP, sigh.)


President M?
You had problems with me too 8D

What have you learned about Fe and Fi? (Wow I sound so patronizing but this is a legit question I'm not trying to be like kindergartner teacher)


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Good morning, world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will do the @hoopla 5 thing now.


It _was_ a good morning.

But good morning ^^ 

I hope your teeth feel better and you no longer have to try to eat applesauce


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> President M?
> You had problems with me too 8D
> 
> What have you learned about Fe and Fi? (Wow I sound so patronizing but this is a legit question I'm not trying to be like kindergartner teacher)


Well, I _still_ think that Fi users can be help accountable when they are intentionally hurting others. So yes, I have learned that people think and value things/people differently, but I don't think that knowledge would change my actions. Oh well. 

And President M like from the other side of the forum.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Well, I _still_ think that Fi users can be help accountable when they are intentionally hurting others. So yes, I have learned that people think and value things/people differently, but I don't think that knowledge would change my actions. Oh well.
> 
> And President M like from the other side of the forum.


Or that M that said you were a big liar. 

I think people are accountable for everything they do, at least slightly, but also not completely


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> Yeah 4 and Fi are the depression functions. -_-
> 
> I didn't take offence. I just get a bit sick of seeing "I'm not a 4 because 4's care about being unique and I don't" sentiments being thrown around. It's a misunderstanding of the type. We're fixated on being unique because we _don't want to be_. It might be nitpicking but I think it's an important distinction to make if people are trying to type themselves.
> 
> 
> Sounds like an image type. 3w4 or 4w3?
> 
> @Curiphant You're sweet.
> 
> If Fi runs your life, you're Fi-dom. Do you feel like it has control over your Pe function? Do you throw yourself into things and evaluate afterwards, or do you decide to take action after you figure out how you feel about it?
> 
> I see Fi in pretty much everything I do but of course that's after learning about the functions. I don't think finding it an obvious influence is a reason to discount it.


The latter. I'm a muller and if I can't decide at the end of the day, I just decide that it doesn't matter. ^^

But darn. ISFPs are "soft spoken and quiet" and I'm not.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Have you thought SFP?


He thought ISFP for himself at one point, but quickly switched to saying he used Ne. I could see SFP much more than an Ne user, but I'm not sure about Fi dominant. How would you say a slightly depressive 4w3/3w4 might act? Thanks for the help 



ElliCat said:


> Sounds like an image type. 3w4 or 4w3?


Ah, yes, I think probably 4w3. Thanks!


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Ah, this seems very 5ish, I think. I feel very similarly (maybe why it seemed normal to me). Wanting to learn and enjoying it, but being disillusioned to an extent by the pressure that you 'must learn this specific way and must do it to pass these tests'. I think education mostly encourages the avoidance of learning, because there's too much focus on testing and not enough on actual learning.


Thank you for your input, by the way. I appreciate your effort ^^

I don't have anything to object to this but I feel awkward saying, "I completely relate to this." 

My math teacher hates the system. He vetoed the last two chapter tests because he said we've already proven our credentials throughout the year and the year is ending soon. He'd probably give up on the finals if he could

He's retiring so he has the ability to make a giant middle finger to the system


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> He thought ISFP for himself at one point, but quickly switched to saying he used Ne. I could see SFP much more than an Ne user, but I'm not sure about Fi dominant. How would you say a slightly depressive 4w3/3w4 might act? Thanks for the help


Heart triad is mysterious to me. I suggest SFP not NFP since I assumed that you'd notice if your friend was another NP.


----------



## ElliCat

Curiphant said:


> But darn. ISFPs are "soft spoken and quiet" and I'm not.


Are they? Is there anything about Fi-Se which dictates that one _must_ be soft-spoken and quiet?


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Heart triad is mysterious to me. I suggest SFP not NFP since I assumed that you'd notice if your friend was another NP.


True. Actually, he has some similarities to my sister, who is Se aux, so that could make sense. Thanks! :happy:


----------



## Immolate

I just remembered a post from last night. Did we settle on @Oswin's type??? Did we open that again???


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> Are they? Is there anything about Fi-Se which dictates that one _must_ be soft-spoken and quiet?


Nope! ><

I'm laughing inwardly now. Extroverted ISFP. Defies all descriptions and stereotypes. 
@alittlebear is going to be so angry XP


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I just remembered a post from last night. Did we settle on @Oswin's type??? Did we open that again???


I _think_ we kinda benched that discussion. :tongue:

For reference, I think @Oswin's INFJ. Even if @angelcat didn't give her approval of it, she doesn't really seem like @fair phantom to me.


----------



## ElliCat

Curiphant said:


> Nope! ><
> 
> I'm laughing inwardly now. Extroverted ISFP. Defies all descriptions and sterotypes.


I don't know if it helps, but I can be really loud and obnoxious and talkative when I'm relaxed and surrounded by right company. I could also be a real chatterbox when I was younger, and one of the main reasons I'm not now is because it was pretty much bullied out of me. 

If I can relax enough in front of a webcam, I might even do a short video showing my more confident side. I can't make any promises because I freeze up when I'm under pressure and/or being filmed but if I can pull it off, it'd be nice to prove that Fi-doms are not all meek little mice.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> I _think_ we kinda benched that discussion. :tongue:
> 
> For reference, I think @_Oswin_'s INFJ. Even if @_angelcat_ didn't give her approval of it, she doesn't really seem like @_fair phantom_ to me.


... That is incredible.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> ... That is incredible.


Haha, that we benched it in favor of @Curiphant? Or the INFJ typing? :wink:


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> I don't know if it helps, but I can be really loud and obnoxious and talkative when I'm relaxed and surrounded by right company. I could also be a real chatterbox when I was younger, and one of the main reasons I'm not now is because it was pretty much bullied out of me.
> 
> If I can relax enough in front of a webcam, I might even do a short video showing my more confident side. I can't make any promises because I freeze up when I'm under pressure and/or being filmed but if I can pull it off, it'd be nice to prove that Fi-doms are not all meek little mice.


It does help. I think it helps I've been surrounded in a very supportive environment in school and I've never been bullied with my talkativeness. 

... It's terrible you were bullied though. You didn't deserve and I'm sorry (which probably doesn't help). My dad says he'll never get over how was bullied and he's fifty something... I'm sorry :c

If you don't manage to pull off the camera stunt, you could always post a debunking stereotypes thing on angelcat's blog?


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Haha, that we benched it in favor of @Curiphant? Or the INFJ typing? :wink:


I feel mildly indignant and am posting a disclaimer that benching things for me was never my intention and if we want to return to Oswin we may. I feel self absorbed as it is (but typing must be done!)


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> I feel mildly indignant and am posting a disclaimer that benching things for me was never my intention and if we want to return to Oswin we may. I feel self absorbed as it is (but typing must be done!)


Oh please, she's likely asleep anyway, better take advantage of the time you have while you have it. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

@Barakiel @Curiphant The typing, _the typing_.


----------



## orbit

Any protests against Fi-dom and ISFP for me?

If not, can we please talk about how Ni Shiny the Matte is?


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> @Barakiel @Curiphant The typing, _the typing_.


Oswin's?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> If not, can we please talk about how Ni Shiny the Matte is?


no no, I'm good, no need, carry on

Also, Oswin's since so many people argued SFJ for so long.


----------



## ElliCat

Curiphant said:


> It does help. I think it helps I've been surrounded in a very supportive environment in school and I've never been bullied with my talkativeness.
> 
> ... It's terrible you were bullied though. You didn't deserve and I'm sorry (which probably doesn't help). My dad says he'll never get over how was bullied and he's fifty something... I'm sorry :c
> 
> If you don't manage to pull off the camera stunt, you could always post a debunking stereotypes thing on angelcat's blog?


Ah I really feel for your dad! Nobody deserves that.

For me it's one of those funny things, I don't especially like my old classmates and I don't crave acceptance for the sake of being accepted... but it happened at such a vulnerable stage in my development that while I should have been learning how to socialise, I learned that people didn't like me, or if they said they liked me they were probably just pretending. So when I finally went to see a psychologist in my 20's, I was telling her how I wasn't really a likeable person, and she asked me what had given me that idea, and I couldn't for the life of me think of a recent example to prove it. It's just that I'd internalised that message so deeply that it became a constant truth for me, even though as an adult people generally _do_ take a liking to me.



Curiphant said:


> Any protests against Fi-dom and ISFP for me?
> 
> If not, can we please talk about how Ni Shiny the Matte is?


I'm not protesting. I'd like to see you try it on for size.

I think Shiny's Ni but I don't have anything to back it up apart from "I don't feel Si". I AM THE TYPING QUEEN SO EXPERT WOW


----------



## To_august

ElliCat said:


> Are they? Is there anything about Fi-Se which dictates that one _must_ be soft-spoken and quiet?


One of the soft-spoken and quite ISFPs :kitteh:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@shinynotshiny BTW forgot to show this to you before, but I think it's a nice ideology clash between an ISTJ (Saber) and an INTJ (Kiritsugu)






Hope that it helps you to get a clearer image of both types.


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> @shinynotshiny BTW forgot to show this to you before, but I think it's a nice ideology clash between an ISTJ (Saber) and an INTJ (Kiritsugu)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that it helps you to get a clearer image of both types.


Yes! Thank you! :kitteh: You did just post the sub, which is arguably inferior, but still, *YES!*

ETA: Sorry, I just love this series. :wink: Still a brilliant example of ISTJ and INTJ conflicting, although in this case, both of them aren't the healthiest examples. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

@Blue Flare @Barakiel


uh-oh

I'm with Kiritsugu on this.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> @Blue Flare @Barakiel
> 
> 
> uh-oh
> 
> I'm with Kiritsugu on this.


Yeah, I was at the beginning too, but then I realised that his view is both extremely pragmatic and really damn depressing. :laughing:

Then again, Saber in Zero is a standin for Shirou, except smarter, so there you go. :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, I was at the beginning too, but then I realised that his view is both extremely pragmatic and really damn depressing. :laughing:
> 
> Then again, Saber in Zero is a standin for Shirou, except smarter, so there you go. :kitteh:


It's about time I marathoned something new, and you did provide me with that useful link...

I'm curious if we can find other examples like this.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> It's about time I marathoned something new, and you did provide me with that useful link...
> 
> I'm curious if we can find other examples like this.


Oh, you're actually gonna do it? Brilliant show to start on, I will admit. :laughing:

As for other examples of NTJ and STJ, a good example is Cersei and Tywin from Game of Thrones, or perhaps Rin and Saber from the sequel to that, Fate/Stay Night. They're similar in their Te, but Ni is forward thinking, while Si is guarded. :happy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

I think Jon Snow is HAWT. I like his dedication and quiet nature actually. Boring? YES. But sexy? mmhmmm... Although I REALLY think Little Finger is SEXY AS HECK! Tommen is so sweet. I LOVVVVE the actress who plays Caersi. Dany is gorgeous. She is one of my favorites, but I hate being on the "I <3 Dany" band-wagon. I would love to have Tyrion as a friend. And his I forgot his friends name.. the funny 'body guard' .. Starts with a B I think. LOVVVVVVVVVVE HIM! I loved Ned too. I don't think there is an main character I don't really like. Honestly, I don't care for Mellsandre, even though she is a babe! Yeah, I know... my spelling is probably way off lol. I probably related most to Sansa. Why are there like NO NFP's? 

Anyway, @Oswin try these links when you can...


When You ALMOST Know Your Personality Type (aka "Between Two Types") - Personality Hacker : Personality Hacker

"Harmony" as a Decision-Maker - Personality Hacker : Personality Hacker

"Authenticity" as a Decision-Maker - Personality Hacker : Personality Hacker

Type Contrast: NFJ vs NFP NFJ is the most mistyped... - Funky MBTI in Fiction

Type Contrast: NFJ vs SFJ SFJs are the bedrock of... - Funky MBTI in Fiction


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Curiphant why do you get to be my favorite type this isn't fair


----------



## owlet

I've been listening to a lot of Tom Mcrae songs today and this one kind of made me think of type 5. What do you think? (Also it's just really nice.)


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh, you're actually gonna do it? Brilliant show to start on, I will admit. :laughing:
> 
> As for other examples of NTJ and STJ, a good example is Cersei and Tywin from Game of Thrones, or perhaps Rin and Saber from the sequel to that, Fate/Stay Night. They're similar in their Te, but Ni is forward thinking, while Si is guarded. :happy:


Why not 

I think Cersei and Tywin are easier to spot, especially Tywin. (Is he bald in the book? With a mustache? What am I remembering...?)

It would be fun to find any two types arguing with each other. These two always make me laugh:






ISTJ Spock and ESFJ McCoy(?)


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> I think Jon Snow is HAWT. I like his dedication and quiet nature actually. Boring? YES. But sexy? mmhmmm... Although I REALLY think Little Finger is SEXY AS HECK! Tommen is so sweet. I LOVVVVE the actress who plays Caersi. Dany is gorgeous. She is one of my favorites, but I hate being on the "I <3 Dany" band-wagon. I would love to have Tyrion as a friend. And his I forgot his friends name.. the funny 'body guard' .. Starts with a B I think. LOVVVVVVVVVVE HIM! I loved Ned too. I don't think there is an main character I don't really like. Honestly, I don't care for Mellsandre, even though she is a babe! Yeah, I know... my spelling is probably way off lol. I probably related most to Sansa. Why are there like NO NFP's?


Littlefinger... LITTLEFINGER?



Never heard that one before. He's the intelligent and sneaky type, so that's nice


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ElliCat said:


> As a 4 I don't want to be special snowflake unique. If anything I want to be more normal. It's not as bad as it used to be (I'm a lot healthier these days) but I used to feel like I was born with something wrong with me. Being defective - and therefore fundamentally different - meant I couldn't connect with others. It wasn't that I didn't want to, or that I wanted to stand out - it was that people rejected me. They teased me and left me out of things, but all seemed to get along with each other just fine. I gradually realised that I was interested in different things from people my age. It's really hard to connect with others when you feel like you must have come from a different planet.
> 
> Maybe to an outsider that looks like special snowflake syndrome. When you're the one experiencing it, it feels like the opposite. You want to be normal so that you can feel connected to the human race, but there's some kind of sickness in your soul that's stopping you.
> 
> The other important element is significance. I want to be significant. I want to be worthy of being noticed and remembered, not by my deeds or by being what other people want me to be, but just by being myself. That's why there's such an emphasis on identity and authenticity: I'm trying to find meaning within myself and leave some kind of trace in the world.


Please don't kill me but I related to every single word of this. This is my entire childhood, at least. 

But I'm not a 4. I can't be a 4. I'm an FJ. I don't want to be a 4 :/

Edit: Sorry, but I relate completely to this too. (Only I can identify examples of how people have showed their dislike for me. Even from two hours ago... But the thing about feeling unliked and not socializing because of it is ridiculously me. I used to say I was six years behind on my social development. I still kind of believe that...)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Littlefinger... LITTLEFINGER?
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard that one before. He's the intelligent and sneaky type, so that's nice


I despise Littlefinger. 

Robb is attractive in personality and a lit bit of appearance.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Did I trash type 4? I actually see enneagram as "find out what kind of a shit you are" so I don't see any type to be above others. I just don't think I relate to type 4 of shit. Although what @ElliCat wrote seems like how my depression & anxiety felt :| "What's wrong with me? Why can't I feel anything? Why do I shake like I am in danger when there's none? No one will ever love me like this" hence why I related to it when I just started with enneagram.


Oh, could it be GAD? Because I completely felt that, that I was inherently broken and incapable of fitting in, incapable of being like others. But it wasn't a good thing, I don't embrace it... It's just a fact. 

I still feel like that, a little. All I want is to be "normal" and fit in. Not to be regarded as the special kid, for a bad or a good reason. Just a person. That's all I want. 

I don't think that makes me a 4. I don't know. I'm a little confused because every word of what @ElliCat said was me but I am convinced I'm not a 4, so...


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I despise Littlefinger.
> 
> Robb is attractive in personality and a lit bit of appearance.


Nah, I like him, I just didn't realize people found him attractive 

Also, why don't you want to be a 4...?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> @Curiphant why do you get to be my favorite type this isn't fair


I'd say that I'm willing to switch but I'm not

I'm not 100% sure if I'm ISFP but it makes sense function wise?

---

Another six hundred page topic on alittlebear's enneagram being 4 or a 9 is underway 8D


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Those archetypes (test-wise) seem to be tritype based rather than just point you towards set-in-stone main type? What's Counselor's tritype?


Apparently 2w1 Sp/2x is my main type, and the other types were given were 9w1, 2w1, 5w6. Idk if that's tritype. The only thing I know about enneagram is the core types and wings. I really want to study this now. I think I'll always be more interested in function types, but @alittlebear made this system sound spiritually tantalizing.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Ummm... can someone tell my if my comment above, is cut off? Does it have like 4 links attached? It looks like it cuts off after talks of Dany, from my phone. but it was longer...

EDIT: nvm, its there


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> Aww, nobody likes Jon except for me.


I like Jon Snow! (But I often seem to be out of step when it comes to opinions of characters) Honestly, I thought his plotline was among the most interesting parts of _A Dance with Dragons._



laurie17 said:


> I still withdraw quite often, but not to the same extent as before, at least not as obviously. Regardless, I definitely relate to 5w4 (preoccupation with collecting knowledge almost compulsively on my interests)


That aspect of 5w4 is easy to relate to (I used to identify as 5w4), and really isn't enough to make a 5. Why are you preoccupied with collecting knowledge? What do you mean by compulsively? what do you do with that knowledge? what is your relationship with emotions? to what extent to you feel emptiness, a void? how do you relate to 5's lines of integration and disintegration?

How much do you relate to the things in this post:


* *






> shinynotshiny said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to begin by saying this has nothing to do with @_hoopla_’s intellectual prowess. The reason she doesn’t strike me as a 5 is because I remember her talking about wanting to help others, wanting to make a difference, acting as mediator in her family, and so on. I want to do these things too, but hoopla’s drive to help seemed to be at the forefront of her personality. I think @_laurie17_ was the one who linked me to these enneagram type descriptions. I found I could relate to this description the most:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Type 5 (Head Triad)*
> 
> Fives are intellectually curious types who love to explore what interests them. *They frequently indulge in spending lots of time with what's impractical.* While they put lots of effort into thinking about things they have deceptively strong feelings however. *They state their points dispassionately and insure what they communicate is well thought out which make them seem less emotional than they really are.*
> 
> Fives take it for granted they have an inherent ability to theorize and understand things more deeply than others, something they'd never say openly. They are never quite "fully there" in their physical presence however. *Their sensitivity to emotional stimuli plus a lack of smoothness from their less developed instincts always makes them removed to some degree to better handle situations.* They *withdraw from their environment and detach emotionally* from others to shut out intrusions in their time and space. From the *safety of their minds they can intensify their investment in their mental activities*. They feel *planning sufficiently and knowing enough can enable them to survive and thrive in life despite being isolated*. This overuse of their thinking center to navigate an intrusive world from a distance causes them to be both idiosyncratic in how they perceive reality and eccentric as others perceive them. This causes fives to exhibit a certain quirky cleverness.
> 
> *Fives are far more sensitive than they appear. *Being fear types they tend to feel a crippling *anxiety that's usually only noticed by close family and friends*. Behind their distant exterior often* lurks feelings threatening to overwhelm them*. They prefer their *privacy where they can immerse themselves in whatever interests them*. Their limitless curiosity causes them to be *self-motivated to learn challenging things and delve into subjects they truly enjoy, to the point of compulsion even*. More than any other type they are connisseurs of knowledge. *As a result fives tend to have a few intellectual areas of interest they have a deep understanding in which they take great pride in*. Many fives *withhold their knowledge *just as they withhold themselves however, hence the five stereotype of a *reclusive* expert that no one knows about.
> 
> *Fives see an interdependent world that desires too much from them. It's not uncommon to see them cut out dead weight and live minimalistic lifestyles to separate themselves from the world.* They feel people *want more of them than they have of themselves to give.* They are affected by others easily and withdraw because they don't believe they have what it takes to deal with other people's demands and expectations. *They are equally aware of being a burden on others and withhold both themselves and their emotions from others*. *Expressing emotions can make them feel vulnerable as they fear that will backfire in front of people who clearly don't understand them*. *They don't care for superficial small talk and limit themselves to authentic people who do have the potential to understand them.* At work they prefer to be given their assignment then left alone. *Even in relationships they may withhold parts of themselves and keep many secrets.* Simply put fives are fear types who are always wary of people or things that come with "strings attached". *Because their instinctive center is weakest they fear "giving their power away" would lead to them being a "sitting duck."*
> 
> This fear of being a "sitting duck" leads fives to focus on having power. *They remove themselves from external activity in order to feel they have enough mastery of the situation to navigate it from a position of strength. *They seperate what's* important from what's irrelevant and have an unrelenting focus to get to the bottom of things.* They delight in "checkmating" others' points that aren't as well thought-out as theirs along the way. Their *intellectual curiousity for a subject is intense enough to eventually turn into mastery*. They imagine *scenarios to understand the world well enough to anticipate reality*. They feel *powerful trusting their own opinions over what society says*. They think things are under control if they know enough. *They think they can get on top of things on their own if they figure things out and plan sufficiently*. They have delusions of grandeur that make them dream about how the world would be if they had the ability to set things. They feel powerful knowing that others haven't thought about stuff as deeply as they have and don't understand what they understand. *This "claim" along with their borderline intellectual overconfidence is a cover on a more subconscious level for their heightened sensitivity and inadequacy* though. It's one thing to create theories but quite another to put them into practice. *They have trouble with simpler things that most people can handle spontaneously. They know how odd they are and always feel fundamentally apart from others.*
> 
> In enneagram theory fives are thinking-feeling-instinctive in that order. This causes them to intensify their efforts thinking up scenarios to anticipate and handle reality at the expense of being engaged in the real world. Because they are instinctive center last it is easy for fives to become ungrounded and spin out of control. *They encounter new people in spontaneous situations and instead of acting naturally they detach or "freeze" (a very minor form of shutdown) to intellectualize their emotions("How do I express this emotion?") instead of using their feeling center to express their emotions(fear that could backfire on them).* Opportunities to reach out to others are missed and fives loses confidence in their ability to act naturally around people. *They spend more time alone with makes them more out of touch with the world. This increases their loneliness and eccentricity which makes it even harder to relate to people, which makes them withdraw and isolate themselves even further*. Once a critical point is reached their cynicism and disdain for humanity accelerates. The scenarios their imagination comes up with to understand the world become more disturbing and further removed from reality. *Healthy fives though are able to both fully participate in life and contribute to an interdependent society while also being able to give more of themselves and handle greater degrees of emotional interdependency.* Their greater engagement of life allows them to be more in touch with reality and better at anticipating things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I should have just made everything bold
> 
> Basically, there’s a curiosity for learning, mastering, and having power and/or control over what you’ve mastered, whether it’s a personal interest or social interactions. For me, a lot of it has to do with genuine curiosity, and I do have certain areas of interest that feel more like life-long obsessions or journeys, but it also has to do with taking control of yourself and having confidence in whatever you pursue. As a young girl in elementary school, I felt my mind was my greatest asset. I loved learning new things. I felt this way in part because I was socially and emotionally inadequate. I could not fit in anywhere. I had two friends at the most each school year. I felt my mind was what made me worthwhile and compensated for my inadequacy elsewhere. Basically, a threat to my mind was a threat to myself.
> 
> I no longer feel this way and I have less of a problem existing apart from most people and situations, but I do acknowledge I still fail at the simplest things and feel best on my own or in atmospheres I know how to navigate. I have desires to help people and improve certain aspects of society, but my greatest project and work-in-progress is my mind. I also relate to 1’s perfectionist and self-critical nature, so you can imagine what that's like
> 
> Apologies for the formatting and lack of depth, I'm tired and I ache. If @_hoopla_ relates to this then call her a 5
> 
> 
> [Edit] oops here's the link
Click to expand...




 @ElliCat you did a better job describing 4 than I did.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Well, I am a pretty forgiving person? He did physically protect Harry, and I think that what he did at the end for Harry was enough to save my idea of his "soul". He did what Voldemort could not. He loved. And I think that's a bit beautiful. It's not romantic in any way, but it's still quite beautiful.
> 
> (You should read _Paper Towns_ though... It's all about not falling in love with the idea of someone, but instead appreciating them as a person. I told my dad this and he said a few of my old friends need to see it, haha.)


I refuse to partake in any John Green culture. 

Maybe I'll check it out covertly but I will never admit to reading it


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I refuse to partake in any John Green culture.
> 
> Maybe I'll check it out covertly but I will never admit to reading it


Oh right, I forgot about your intense hatred of him. 

He's an Fi-dominant like you though


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I refuse to partake in any John Green culture.
> 
> Maybe I'll check it out covertly but I will never admit to reading it


I've never read his books. Why do you dislike him?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Angelcat. ... huh? Your last comment to me was that I am Fi and Si...?

So what is your final answer? I'll give you a top 3 option lol.

1._________
2._________
3._________

Actually, can EVERYONE do this for me? I am totally curious. Keep in mind I grew up around sensors. I am still surrounded by them. My whole life is also based on Fe principles (my faith basically), but they EXHAUST me. Its not natural. Enneagram (468). 

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I've never read his books. Why do you dislike him?


 @Curiphant write your essay


----------



## Pressed Flowers

sugarplum said:


> angelcat. ... Huh? Your last comment to me was that i am fi and si...?
> 
> So what is your final answer? I'll give you a top 3 option lol.
> 
> 1._________
> 2._________
> 3._________
> 
> actually, can everyone do this for me? I am totally curious. Keep in mind my i grew up around sensors. My while life is also based on fe principles (my faith basically), but they exhaust me. Enneagram (468).
> 
> Thank you in advance.


1. Infp
2. Esfp
3. Isfp


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> With the mentioning of your existence being a chain of preceding events that lead you up to the present moment... but you cannot remember what they were, and life is just a blur you happen to be navigating in, I would say Si dom, because shit that's my entire life.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, thank God. It's not just me.
Click to expand...

But I remember a lot...? Like a lot. And very vividly. 

What do you all mean, by this exactly?


EDIT: and thank you ((( alittlebear)))

Very interesting.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I'm trying to think of characters I can agree with the "sexiness" of and haven't one of those "wow, I _am_ asexual" moments.


I have a long, long list of characters I find sexy. And to think, once upon a time, I thought _I_ was asexual. Nope. 

The damn shame of it is I keep finding out that the actors playing the characters I am ridiculously attracted to are gay. That just ... damn it. NO MORE.

Snape is a total and utter bastard, and what he does at the end doesn't redeem his long history of treating his students like total trash. That being said, I like his character because he's complex, and so fundamentally flawed and in being so, is totally HUMAN. He proves that, unlike Harry sees the world, life and the people in it are not black and white. Snape's back story, about losing Lily, and the flashbacks in the movie to him finding her dead, just attack my Fe and make me cry like a child, because I can just imagine the devastation of that. Yet, he is utterly selfish. He sits there, holding her body, sobbing ... completely ignoring the devastated toddler in the crib behind him. That, to me, encompasses a mental image of Snape in his total embodiment -- he only ever truly cared about Lily. Not Harry. Not ever. Not anyone except Lily. Unhealthy low Fi at its finest. 

Alan Rickman is lovely, though. Much, much too old to be Snape (who should have been in his 30's) but still wonderful in the part. And I loved Colonel Brandon the instant I saw/heard him, particularly in Alan's version -- when he enters the house, sees Marianne, and the look on his face is just ... devastatingly, heart-wrenchingly beautiful and sad. I was all of thirteen or so at the time, and thought Marianne was a total drip for ignoring this wonderful, perfect soul, in favor of some poetry-quoting jerkface.



> Oh, and Littlefinger. _I don't even know what to say. _ I hate him. He actually reminds me of a friend of mine too (a different friend... love my friends), but none of my love for my friend carries over to him. While Varys does terrible things in the name of a good cause, Littlefinger does terrible things seemingly for himself. And, lol, not to mention the whole thing with Sansa. If he was her age, the things he thinks about her might be excusable, interesting, I could ship it I mean, but given that he is at least twenty years older than her it disgusts me to the ends of the earth. (I can take incest, but drastic age differences make my stomach churn.)


I love Littlefinger for all the reasons you hate him. He's a genius. A master manipulator. The one individual behind all the events now unfolding in this fictional world. He knocked over one domino and the devastation is unraveling around him, with probably the pure aim of sitting on the Iron Throne. Out of sheer admiration for his genius, I rather hope he succeeds and gets whatever it is he ultimately wants, because... damn. That is an ingenious game of mental chess, and I happen to have a thing for utter intelligence, in good guys or bad. (I also adore Khan in the new Star Trek, so what does that tell you?) He is so utterly magnificent in his delusions that it fascinates me. He has carried over his tragic, unrequited love for Catelyn and projected it onto Sansa, in doing so becoming a fascinating psychological study. 

Finally... Sansa. You are not alone in being creeped out by that. There's a reason we're called Creepyshippres, you know. But here's my reasoning: I always ship characters who seem to do something for each other, that the characters could not accomplish on their own. Complete one another, in a sense, or strengthen one another in some way. NTJs often do this for SFJs ... because they challenge the SFJ, force them to be stronger, and claim their life. I saw this in Lex Luthor and Lana Lang on SMALLVILLE (before the stupid writers screwed my ship for good). Around Lex, Lana was tougher. Stronger. Less emotionally vulnerable. He did not "save" her -- he gave her the tools to save herself, and taught her how to use them. This is what Littlefinger is doing for Sansa. Giving her the training and tools to save herself. THAT is what I find fascinating about them.

Though I will admit, I've had a bit of a thing for Aidan Gillan and his saunter since I first saw him in "Lorna Doone" what ... 15 years ago? He played a total brat in that adaptation, almost to Joffrey levels in terms of selfish, neurotic, controlling behavior (it's a magnificent movie, though; greatly underestimated, but full of themes of good and evil, self-sacrifice, and love), but I developed quite a crush on him, and now that he has touches of gray at his temples ... it's only gotten worse. So there's that. A former bias is definitely in play on my end.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> alittlebear said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to think of characters I can agree with the "sexiness" of and haven't one of those "wow, I _am_ asexual" moments.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a long, long list of characters I find sexy. And to think, once upon a time, I thought _I_ was asexual. Nope.
> 
> The damn shame of it is I keep finding out that the actors playing the characters I am ridiculously attracted to are gay. That just ... damn it. NO MORE.
> 
> Snape is a total and utter bastard, and what he does at the end doesn't redeem his long history of treating his students like total trash. That being said, I like his character because he's complex, and so fundamentally flawed and in being so, is totally HUMAN. He proves that, unlike Harry sees the world, life and the people in it are not black and white. Snape's back story, about losing Lily, and the flashbacks in the movie to him finding her dead, just attack my Fe and make me cry like a child, because I can just imagine the devastation of that. Yet, he is utterly selfish. He sits there, holding her body, sobbing ... completely ignoring the devastated toddler in the crib behind him. That, to me, encompasses a mental image of Snape in his total embodiment -- he only ever truly cared about Lily. Not Harry. Not ever. Not anyone except Lily. Unhealthy low Fi at its finest.
> 
> Alan Rickman is lovely, though. Much, much too old to be Snape (who should have been in his 30's) but still wonderful in the part. And I loved Colonel Brandon the instant I saw/heard him, particularly in Alan's version -- when he enters the house, sees Marianne, and the look on his face is just ... devastatingly, heart-wrenchingly beautiful and sad. I was all of thirteen or so at the time, and thought Marianne was a total drip for ignoring this wonderful, perfect soul, in favor of some poetry-quoting jerkface.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and Littlefinger. _I don't even know what to say. _ I hate him. He actually reminds me of a friend of mine too (a different friend... love my friends), but none of my love for my friend carries over to him. While Varys does terrible things in the name of a good cause, Littlefinger does terrible things seemingly for himself. And, lol, not to mention the whole thing with Sansa. If he was her age, the things he thinks about her might be excusable, interesting, I could ship it I mean, but given that he is at least twenty years older than her it disgusts me to the ends of the earth. (I can take incest, but drastic age differences make my stomach churn.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I love Littlefinger for all the reasons you hate him. He's a genius. A master manipulator. The one individual behind all the events now unfolding in this fictional world. He knocked over one domino and the devastation is unraveling around him, with probably the pure aim of sitting on the Iron Throne. Out of sheer admiration for his genius, I rather hope he succeeds and gets whatever it is he ultimately wants, because... damn. That is an ingenious game of mental chess, and I happen to have a thing for utter intelligence, in good guys or bad. (I also adore Khan in the new Star Trek, so what does that tell you?) He is so utterly magnificent in his delusions that it fascinates me. He has carried over his tragic, unrequited love for Catelyn and projected it onto Sansa, in doing so becoming a fascinating psychological study.
> 
> Finally... Sansa. You are not alone in being creeped out by that. There's a reason we're called Creepyshippres, you know. But here's my reasoning: I always ship characters who seem to do something for each other, that the characters could not accomplish on their own. Complete one another, in a sense, or strengthen one another in some way. NTJs often do this for SFJs ... because they challenge the SFJ, force them to be stronger, and claim their life. I saw this in Lex Luthor and Lana Lang on SMALLVILLE (before the stupid writers screwed my ship for good). Around Lex, Lana was tougher. Stronger. Less emotionally vulnerable. He did not "save" her -- he gave her the tools to save herself, and taught her how to use them. This is what Littlefinger is doing for Sansa. Giving her the training and tools to save herself. THAT is what I find fascinating about them.
> 
> Though I will admit, I've had a bit of a thing for Aidan Gillan and his saunter since I first saw him in "Lorna Doone" what ... 15 years ago? He played a total brat in that adaptation, almost to Joffrey levels in terms of selfish, neurotic, controlling behavior (it's a magnificent movie, though; greatly underestimated, but full of themes of good and evil, self-sacrifice, and love), but I developed quite a crush on him, and now that he has touches of gray at his temples ... it's only gotten worse. So there's that. A former bias is definitely in play on my end.
Click to expand...

Yes yes and yes! (Except the last bits about the other shows. I don't know them.)


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> Angelcat. ... huh? Your last comment to me was that I am Fi and Si...?
> 
> So what is your final answer? I'll give you a top 3 option lol.
> 
> 1._________
> 2._________
> 3._________
> 
> Actually, can EVERYONE do this for me? I am totally curious. Keep in mind I grew up around sensors. I am still surrounded by them. My whole life is also based on Fe principles (my faith basically), but they EXHAUST me. Its not natural. Enneagram (468).
> 
> Thank you in advance.


You have always struck me as Fe, because you are so open in sharing your likes/dislikes/opinions with the kind of fun house exuberance that I associate with Fe. Higher Fe in many instances unfolds in wild enthusiasm and often has a gushy tone to it. Things like re-blogging posts and adding "SO ME!!!!!!!!!!" to the end of them. I never completely am certain if you are doing that for your own benefit, or for my benefit (tumblr) or for other people's benefit on the typing threads. I feel like you want us to react to you, and with you, and that simply strikes me as Fe. 

Yet, you vehemently deny Fe and have denied and fought against it from the first, so ... I may be wrong and merely perceiving you incorrectly. 

And then there's stuff like this:



SugarPlum said:


> But I remember a lot...? Like a lot. And very vividly.
> 
> What do you all mean, by this exactly?


I would think that higher Ne would be more apt at reading between the lines / leaping to conclusions and "running with it," but a lot of the time, you ask for clarification. Is this because you have leapt to conclusions in the past, been wrong, and had to re-phrase your words, or is it because you can't catch on to vague concepts easily? The latter usually indicates a sensor preference. 

For whatever reason, either because it's my tert and I don't know it, or being wildly imaginative has super-charged my Ne, I often skim read, assume things based on vague generalities and concepts, and shoot my mouth off with a bunch of abstract things. My problem is that I DON'T ask enough questions, I just ... leap in, guns blazing. So, why do you ask for clarification? Is that the distinction between higher Si (mine) and potentially lower Si (yours)?

But, _what do you mean by this exactly_?

I mean that there are a lot of statements out there that say Si-doms have a incredibly vivid memory of the past. I do not. Objects can trigger sensory impressions and unlock memories, but without an object or idea to do so, my entire past is a void, a blend of colors and sounds and the idea that it happened, but I was not fully present in it, and ... hell if I know WHEN exactly anything happened. I don't even remember the date my various grandparents all died. I don't remember what day of the week it is half the time, without some kind of marker. Si does not have a good, conscious awareness of time. I just float in it. I feel like I exist, but don't, and the past, other than what it has taught me, is relatively meaningless to me.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I'm trying to think of characters I can agree with the "sexiness" of and haven't one of those "wow, I _am_ asexual" moments.
> 
> Dean is ridiculously attractive. I suppose he counts. Can't even remember his character... He was the one who liked soccer, perhaps, who always made things explode? Not sure. He's cute in the movies, especially later on.
> 
> Oh, and Littlefinger. _I don't even know what to say. _ I hate him. He actually reminds me of a friend of mine too (a different friend... love my friends), but none of my love for my friend carries over to him. While Varys does terrible things in the name of a good cause, Littlefinger does terrible things seemingly for himself. And, lol, not to mention the whole thing with Sansa. If he was her age, the things he thinks about her might be excusable, interesting, I could ship it I mean, but given that he is at least twenty years older than her it disgusts me to the ends of the earth. (I can take incest, but drastic age differences make my stomach churn.)



* *




For me the age difference is gross (especially when I remind myself how young Sansa is), but it isn't even the worst thing about it for me. It is transference. He was obsessed with her mother and since he couldn't have Cat he is playing pygmalion and making a Cat who will love him and feel indebted to him. Even though he is responsible for much of her unhappiness, at least insofar as he orchestrated Ned's downfall. (I will give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that he only intended for Ned to be sent to the wall, but still). And then he interfered with her marriage to Loras—and I think he did the same with Willas (who btw is the only male I ship sansa with). I think she would have found happiness with Willas, and as for Loras...honestly a husband who fancies men would have been much better than either of her subsequent husbands (Tyrion was unkind, but how could she ever be happy with the Lannisters using her to lay claim to the North? and he did make sexual advances on her in the book. And as for Ramsay...do I even need to say why Loras would have been preferable?) Loras would have been kind and courteous and she'd have a companion in Margaery and The Queen of Thorns as a teacher in the ways of the Game. But Littlefinger selfishly spoiled her happiness. It is all so twisted.




It all makes me so angry. He amuses me at times, but I _hate him_, especially after he stupidly and carelessly left Sansa with the Boltons. I mean seriously dude, do your research.


----------



## Max

*A wild, confused Lucho appears.*

Guys, I was reading about Ni and Se and Si and Ne. Now I am confused as to which process I use. 

Earlier today, I guessed something would happen in the program near the end near that showed no clues of it happening, and I was correct. The little boy died. No-one seen it coming. I felt a shock in my gut when it happened.

I remember once I had a psychical encounter with a demon in my bedroom when i was sick. It was feeling my tummy and looked like my Mum. I prayed it and it dissappeared. It was fucking weird. 

And the whole constant dragonfly symbollism? Only to find out months later what it meant? Man, that was crazy. 

The last few months of 2014 were like one of those horror movies for me. I was severely sick, depressed and seeing things. My mind was stuck in some crazy loop. I was tapping into the unknown. It was amazing, but creepy at the same time.

All these things came from within. My subconscious. The human mind is so messed up. It can be messed up in epic ways too. You think you took drugs to get these insights, but you were perfectly sober with no caffiene or drugs. 

So.. what do you guys think this is? 

You have reached the end of the thread.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Oh right, I forgot about your intense hatred of him.
> 
> He's an Fi-dominant like you though


I do not hate him personally, I just hate his... Culture? Or ugh, just everything around him. I don't hate the man himself. And I do not hate

I hate the vibe and I'll shuffle around to think if I can pinpoint any examples on why:

I find him so unnecessary? Why does he have to post his blogs to his brother through the Internet? Publicly? That just feels kind of wrong and fake

And his lessons and courses on literature? Reading is a personal experience so it's almost like he wants to brainwash everyone with his personal ideals? As an author, you should really let people think themselves? You are literally allowing and supporting people copying your ideas for their essays? And he's so smug and pretentious like "How great am I for doing this?"

And feminism! His culture is like JOHN GREEN CREATED FEMINISM AND SUPOORTS IT WITH HIS WHOLE HEART 

no. 
He's too smug about that. 
Plus he romantizes the whole teenage experience and tries to make it too nitty and gritty and it bothers me. I think that's the word, romantize? The mood and tone of his books bother me in a way I can't explain. 

I couldn't get past the first hundred pages of The Fault in Our Stars

The only thing that he ever has going for him is his "clever" premises and random facts and quirkiness? That's not enough for me. The prentenetiousness and quirkiness bother me. It's like a formula. It doesn't flow right. He tries too hard and he doesn't strike me as natural or sincere. He's so "relatable." He reminds me of Jennifer Lawrence in this way. 

I can't think of anything and this is very vague but it's been awhile since I've decided to reject John Green and his thing.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> I do not hate him personally, I just hate his... Culture? Or ugh, just everything around him. I don't hate the man himself. And I do not hate
> 
> I hate the vibe and I'll shuffle around to think if I can pinpoint any examples on why:
> 
> I find him so unnecessary? Why does he have to post his blogs to his brother through the Internet? Publicly? That just feels kind of wrong and fake
> 
> And his lessons and courses on literature? Reading is a personal experience so it's almost like he wants to brainwash everyone with his personal ideals? As an author, you should really let people think themselves? You are literally allowing and supporting people copying your ideas for their essays? And he's so smug and pretentious like "How great am I for doing this?"
> 
> And feminism! His culture is like JOHN GREEN CREATED FEMINISM AND SUPOORTS IT WITH HIS WHOLE HEART
> 
> no.
> He's too smug about that.
> Plus he romantizes the whole teenage experience and tries to make it too nitty and gritty and it bothers me. I think that's the word, romantize? The mood and tone of his books bother me in a way I can't explain.
> 
> I couldn't get past the first hundred pages of The Fault in Our Stars
> 
> The only thing that he ever has going for him is his "clever" premises and random facts and quirkiness? That's not enough for me. The prentenetiousness and quirkiness bother me. It's like a formula. It doesn't flow right. He tries too hard and he doesn't strike me as natural or sincere. He's so "relatable." He reminds me of Jennifer Lawrence in this way.
> 
> I can't think of anything and this is very vague but it's been awhile since I've decided to reject John Green and his thing.


----------



## orbit

I also skim read when I read ^^

I get a bunch points taken off on tests because I always assume the topic that teachers are talking about and then I just mark the answer without reading it carefully


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> *A wild, confused Lucho appears.*
> 
> Guys, I was reading about Ni and Se and Si and Ne. Now I am confused as to which process I use.
> 
> Earlier today, I guessed something would happen in the program near the end near that showed no clues of it happening, and I was correct. The little boy died. No-one seen it coming. I felt a shock in my gut when it happened.


I do that all the time. It's not really Ni-indicative, though some might think so.



> I remember once I had a psychical encounter with a demon in my bedroom when i was sick. It was feeling my tummy and looked like my Mum. I prayed it and it dissappeared. It was fucking weird.


This usually hints at inferior/lower Ne/Ni use, most often ... Ne. Why? Demons. Mythological creatures you have been taught about, so when an unexplained phenomenon happens -- you Si-project a formerly sourced paranormal creature on top of it, in this case... a demon.

I've awoken several times in the night, convinced a demon was sitting on my chest, because I was full of this crazy, intense fear and couldn't move. I rebuked it in the name of Jesus and it went away. But now, I'm not sure if it actually did happen and was a demon or if it was sleep paralysis -- when your eyes open and your brain wakes before the rest of your body does. For a moment, the panic of not being able to move fills you with terror, and Si kicks in and tells you -- demonic activity. 

Half the time, when woken inexplicably in the middle of the night, I wonder if there is something there -- and then I reason that if there were, the cat wouldn't be so complacent at my feet.



> And the whole constant dragonfly symbollism? Only to find out months later what it meant? Man, that was crazy.


Feels like Ti... searching for explanations and laying symbolism (Si or Ni?) on top of something weird, just to have it make sense to you. Either way, this is just ... low-order Ti.



> The last few months of 2014 were like one of those horror movies for me. I was severely sick, depressed and seeing things. My mind was stuck in some crazy loop. I was tapping into the unknown. It was amazing, but creepy at the same time.
> 
> All these things came from within. My subconscious. The human mind is so messed up. It can be messed up in epic ways too. You think you took drugs to get these insights, but you were perfectly sober with no caffiene or drugs.
> 
> So.. what do you guys think this is?


I'm sorry you had to go through that. Seems like reverting into lower Ne to me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I also skim read when I read ^^
> 
> I get a bunch points taken off on tests because I always assume the topic that teachers are talking about and then I just mark the answer without reading it carefully


I skim read too. It's terrible. I mean, I know what it's saying... somehow even running my eyes over a line over words without putting them together even gives me the meaning. It's odd. Similar to how I can open a book (fictional of academic) at random, flip through it for a few pages, and have this perhaps false certainty that I know what the book _is_, what is suffers from, what its triumphs are, and what use the book is. 

This comes in handy when I go to the library - I don't check out many books, I just brief many of them - but it stinks when you want to read a text but you can't because you got the point around page 20.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I skim read too. It's terrible. I mean, I know what it's saying... somehow even running my eyes over a line over words without putting them together even gives me the meaning. It's odd. Similar to how I can open a book (fictional of academic) at random, flip through it for a few pages, and have this perhaps false certainty that I know what the book _is_, what is suffers from, what its triumphs are, and what use the book is.
> 
> This comes in handy when I go to the library - I don't check out many books, I just brief many of them - but it stinks when you want to read a text but you can't because you got the point around page 20.


Why I get bored a lot ><

Wait wait. I just realized that this implies I get the point within twenty pages. 

I usually get it from the excerpt and like a hundred pages. Much longer


----------



## 68097

@alittlebear: awhile back you mentioned something about wanting to respond to me, regarding something I said about growing up reading classic literature or something? Did you ever do that? I'm curious as to whatever it was you had to say about it (I think it related to being 'pretentious' and using big words as a kid, maybe?).


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> Oh, thank God. It's not just me.


It's why I thought I was an intuitive forevers... what is life and what do we do with it?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Eat.
> 
> Kirk is an idiot, Spock cries, Uhura makes heart eyes at Spock, Bones isn't even part of the trio, Khan is Cumberbatch.
> 
> Oh. I just remembered the tribble.


Well, I do have a question for you. If you were to make a movie on Star Trek, how would you do it? Cause the characters inevitably have to be streamlined, so you can't really make that complaint. :wink: It's similar to complaining that the characters are different from a book in the movie adaptation, it's kind of unavoidable.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, I do have a question for you. If you were to make a movie on Star Trek, how would you do it? Cause the characters inevitably have to be streamlined, so you can't really make that complaint. :wink:



I can complain about the average person's need for dumbass pretty boy Captains and woobie vulcans


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> So should I watch the original Star Trek? My dad and I are considering it. I think it would probably be worth it.


The original Spock is awesome, and all the characters are very likeable. Being the 70's, it's all over-acted and cheesy, but I enjoy watching it, so yeah, give it a shot at least. Start with the series, though. I think the episodic adventures are better than the movies, in general.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I can complain about the average person's need for dumbass pretty boy Captains and woobie vulcans


Rather than an actor who pauses every few words and a stoic brick? :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Rather than an actor who pauses every few words and a stoic brick? :wink:



I never said Shatner was a good actor 

It's not about the acting, it's about what makes the character.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Rather than an actor who pauses every few words and a stoic brick? :wink:


Ohhhhh! Burn.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Ohhhhh! Burn.



Only someone silly would care. The beard protects against silliness.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Eat.
> 
> Kirk is an idiot, Spock cries, Uhura makes heart eyes at Spock, Bones isn't even part of the trio, Khan is Cumberbatch.
> 
> Oh. I just remembered the tribble.














shinynotshiny said:


> A little too much? A Little?


I can accept that because of timeline change and their supposed age. I don't think the change is for the good but I can find justification for them. Mainly that it's action movie now and everything has to be











angelcat said:


> Kinda... the same thing happened with "Star Wars."


Wait, NO! I rewatch all 6 movies once in a few years and old movies still stand and new ones still make me bleed internally.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I never said Shatner was a good actor
> 
> It's not about the acting, it's about what makes the character.


Oh no, don't get me wrong, Shatner's awesome in Boston Legal. :laughing:

Actually, I would say it's exactly the acting, it's the main difference between film and books, and how film can get a leg up on books, that and music. Though that's just me personally.


----------



## 68097

I think you can choose to like anything, so long as you admit to its faults. I like the old Star Trek, despite its cheesiness and terrible acting. I like the new Star Trek, despite its stupid plot arcs and character bastardization. I have a harder time liking the old Star Wars, because it is so ... dated. Part of the problem is, the last time I watched all 6, they were "in order," meaning I went from top notch CGI to a very fake looking Yoda puppet. But I like the characters from the originals, so that's something.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh no, don't get me wrong, Shatner's awesome in Boston Legal. :laughing:
> 
> Actually, I would say it's exactly the acting, it's the main difference between film and books, and how film can get a leg up on books, that and music. Though that's just me personally.



Nah, Nimoy had some cheesy moments portraying Spock's emotions but it doesn't have to mean the character is cheesy. At times I have to separate the character from the person playing said character. It's about what the character represents regardless of how stupid they look crying or delivering a line.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Eat.
> 
> Kirk is an idiot, Spock cries, Uhura makes heart eyes at Spock, Bones isn't even part of the trio, Khan is Cumberbatch.
> 
> Oh. I just remembered the tribble.


Kirk was good  He was like the only thing that kept me engaged in the two movies.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Kirk was good  He was like the only thing that kept me engaged in the two movies.



Oh no.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh no.


You responded quickly. 

He was fun.  And ESTP, yes?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> You responded quickly.
> 
> He was fun.  And ESTP, yes?



Phone.

He was fun in a young way which ehh.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Nah, Nimoy had some cheesy moments portraying Spock's emotions but it doesn't have to mean the character is cheesy. At times I have to separate the character from the person playing said character. It's about what the character represents regardless of how stupid they look crying or delivering a line.


Well, I haven't seen much of him, so I can only go off some few moments, and he seems like... hm, what's a good comparison... Robert de Niro, actually, except more muted. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Phone.
> 
> He was fun in a young way which ehh.


I was a young-ish person when I watched.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I was a young-ish person when I watched.



Understandable.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay. I've been looking around to see what other topics are contenders for the Largest Topic Ever. So far I think this is the one to beat. 

http://personalitycafe.com/book-music-movie-reviews/208-what-song-you-listening-now.html

I don't think getting to 3000 pages would be _too_ unreasonable.


----------



## Adena

Anyone has a good historical movie to recommend me? I'm in the mood for a nice film.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

* *




But like??? I haven't seen the scene but if anyone as far as Melisandre goes this makes me happy. She was already heartless. We met her as she burned a village. A village with _children_. I hate it when people don't realize how truly heartless characters are just because they don't realize the extent of their actions. _Now they do_, because she sort of burned a fan favorite this time. She was always a child murderer, though. Now she's just a child murderer out in the open. 

In other news I've begun to make AUs in my head where I rescue Shireen and pat her hair and take her away to a village where no one can hurt her ever and her father is left to think over what he almost did 

I never make personal AUs but for this I must


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Barakiel Isn't all comedy a deconstruction of life? Hmm.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But like??? I haven't seen the scene but if anyone as far as Melisandre goes this makes me happy. She was already heartless. We met her as she burned a village. A village with _children_. I hate it when people don't realize how truly heartless characters are just because they don't realize the extent of their actions. _Now they do_, because she sort of burned a fan favorite this time. She was always a child murderer, though. Now she's just a child murderer out in the open.
> 
> In other news I've begun to make AUs in my head where I rescue Shireen and pat her hair and take her away to a village where no one can hurt her ever and her father is left to think over what he almost did
> 
> I never make personal AUs but for this I must


I'm of two minds of her, really. Yes, she's a child murderer and a fanatical extremist, but a scene that really stands out to me is where she almost lets Stannis choke her to death, it's a very compelling scene, and makes me think slightly more of her than Ramsay.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel Isn't all comedy a deconstruction of life? Hmm.


Haha, kind of, yeah. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But like??? I haven't seen the scene but if anyone as far as Me,islander goes this makes me happy. She was already heartless. We met her as she burned a village. A village with _children_. I hate it when people don't realize how truly heartless characters are just because they don't realize the extent of their actions. _Now they do_, because she sort of burned a fan favorite this time. She was always a child murderer, though. Now she's just a child murderer out in the open.


I actually didn't like the kid and still think Joffrey and especially Ramsay are way worse. She is vile mage and a fanatic sure, but still a fascinating character. She would be just a mad woman if not far actual magic that she did. Makes me curious whatever her "god" is and is hers is more (or actually real) than "Seven" are. And how much truth there is to her vision where Stannis rules.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart @Barakiel I don't know... She might be a fascinating character, but she's still a jerk x 1000. Like, a terrible terrible jerk. I can't look past that. She's charismatic, she's beautiful, she's fascinating, she's somewhat brilliant (socially and spiritually). But her actions are heartless. 

Of course Joffrey and Ramsey are worse - they have no cause, they are just Hatred and Cruelty - but... They are lovable. No one is filled by them. This woman does have fans. That's what makes me sick.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart @Barakiel I don't know... She might be a fascinating character, but she's still a jerk x 1000. Like, a terrible terrible jerk. I can't look past that. She's charismatic, she's beautiful, she's fascinating, she's somewhat brilliant (socially and spiritually). But her actions are heartless.
> 
> Of course Joffrey and Ramsey are worse - they have no cause, they are just Hatred and Cruelty - but... They are lovable. No one is filled by them. This woman does have fans. That's what makes me sick.


Ok, let me say outright, that I personally like characters who have done much worse acts than that. For instance, Kirei Kotomine, a man who outright gives the energy of orphans to his "friend" for strength, and when the protagonist finds these sacrifices, he can hear them moaning in pain, only wanting to die. But he's so tragic in his quest to find out if something truly evil can be born, and when you see what his life has been like, you feel for him. Imagine being born only taking pleasure in evil acts, having no capacity for compassion or love towards anything, you just _can't_, it's quite a tragic existence, and I don't blame him for what he did.

Mellisandre, by comparison, is it a lot more muted, and she has no identifiable reason for her fanaticism. Evil characters have their fans, mainly because they're either charismatic, or sympathetic. Mellisandre is neither to me, so I don't feel much towards her besides respect for her devotion. :happy:

ETA: Sometimes I wonder what would have happened had Ned been able to advise Joffrey like Robert wanted, maybe he could have helped him. Damn you Cersei. :dry:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart @Barakiel I don't know... She might be a fascinating character, but she's still a jerk x 1000. Like, a terrible terrible jerk. I can't look past that. She's charismatic, she's beautiful, she's fascinating, she's somewhat brilliant (socially and spiritually). But her actions are heartless.
> 
> Of course Joffrey and Ramsey are worse - they have no cause, they are just Hatred and Cruelty - but... *They are lovable.* No one is filled by them. This woman does have fans. That's what makes me sick.


Ugh, no way.

I have lots of favorite villains. I'm usually not bothered by fictional violence. Well, maybe if it's really graphic like red wedding but it's still more of "this image bothers me" than "actually bothered by implications of what's happening".


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But like??? I haven't seen the scene but if anyone as far as Melisandre goes this makes me happy. She was already heartless. We met her as she burned a village. A village with _children_. I hate it when people don't realize how truly heartless characters are just because they don't realize the extent of their actions. _Now they do_, because she sort of burned a fan favorite this time. She was always a child murderer, though. Now she's just a child murderer out in the open.
> 
> In other news I've begun to make AUs in my head where I rescue Shireen and pat her hair and take her away to a village where no one can hurt her ever and her father is left to think over what he almost did
> 
> I never make personal AUs but for this I must


Hm?? I think that birth scene was enough to let people know she's kind of really dark. I don't think it's always a matter of people missing a character's true nature. Sometimes they see it and that's what feeds the fascination.

[Edit] JOFFREY IS LOVEABLE?


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> [Edit] JOFFREY IS LOVEABLE?


:laughing:



> Hm?? I think that birth scene was enough to let people know she's kind of really dark. I don't think it's always a matter of people missing a character's true nature. Sometimes they see it and that's what feeds the fascination.


What I find fascinating in her is how her faith seems like just another religious fanatic in the setting but unlike all the Sevens priests hers actually answers prayers. Her rituals work. She was right about her vision so far. Also as @Barakiel said how complete her belief seems. For her it's not even a question of believing, she just knows, accepts it as a fact. Fascinating.


----------



## owlet

Grey Romantic what about The Princess Bride? It's sort of like a period drama... aside from being fantasy.

Also, now I just think of American History X whenever I see Edward Norton (even when he's in Wes Anderson films). That film was slightly scarring.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> :laughing:
> 
> 
> What I find fascinating in her is how her faith seems like just another religious fanatic in the setting but unlike all the Sevens priests hers actually answers prayers. Her rituals work. She was right about her vision so far. Also as @Barakiel said how complete her belief seems. For her it's not even a question of believing, she just knows, accepts it as a fact. Fascinating.


Yeah, I admire it because it's beautiful, and I can't do it myself. That amount of certainty she has is envious. :happy:

ETA: I do hope someone got the reference. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

I'm so going to go to wiki and read spoilers now.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> :laughing:
> 
> 
> What I find fascinating in her is how her faith seems like just another religious fanatic in the setting but unlike all the Sevens priests hers actually answers prayers. Her rituals work. She was right about her vision so far. Also as @_Barakiel_ said how complete her belief seems. For her it's not even a question of believing, she just knows, accepts it as a fact. Fascinating.


And now I just remembered who Ramsay is. What is going. This is a grave misunderstanding.

Also, yes, I've always been attracted to her story for that reason.


----------



## fair phantom

too...much...to...respond...to....


----------



## Greyhart

@Barakiel we'd be in Slytherin 100% you and I. :|


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Grey Romantic *what about The Princess Bride*? It's sort of like a period drama... aside from being fantasy.
> 
> Also, now I just think of American History X whenever I see Edward Norton (even when he's in Wes Anderson films). That film was slightly scarring.


I keep meaning to watch it. It's a funny movie, isn't it?


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> @Barakiel we'd be in Slytherin 100% you and I. :|


Haha, I actually got into there when I was on Pottermore the first time, rather amusing, that. :laughing:


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> @_Barakiel_ we'd be in Slytherin 100% you and I. :|


I never got into Harry Potter so I only remember than Slytherins are supposed to be kind of unpleasant, which doesn't sound right for you two.


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I never got into Harry Potter so I only remember than Slytherins are supposed to be kind of unpleasant, which doesn't sound right for you two.


Haha, manipulative, cunning and ambitious. Two of those fit for me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

[I am taking a little break. I overreacted a little. Maybe this counts as trying to get pity points, whatever, but I'm not having a good time right now physically and I came on here today to just relax a little, so that struck me a little too bluntly. I don't think I'm typist. I think I have some biases -- as we all do, I think -- but I am not typist. I am working against my own biases, and if anyone wants to help me through that with kindness and consideration, my ear, my inbox, and my notifications are always open to that. But I do not have anything against people of a certain type. I try my best to stand up against typism in the forum. I try to value every function and every type. I see that has not come across to a few members, but unfortunately their perception is incorrect. 

Regardless, I apologize for my emotional outburst. And I apologize for anything I have said here that may have offended someone, typist or not. I'll try to be better. I really will. And if someone wants to help me, I welcome them. But right now, I need some time and space.]


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh, Shiny. Honestly, I don't even know how to respond to this. What I just said about Ned is not typist, at all (what the heck), and... Honestly I'm just hurt. I've suspected for a while that you've had something against me because you've deemed me typist (which I don't agree with), but it tears me apart that now you're... confirming it. You're sick of me because you think that my views on type are morally deficient.
> 
> Whatever. I'm not typist. I don't know what to say. Honestly I'm very upset right now. I need to log off.
> 
> Thanks for being honest and outright about your thoughts on me though. I guess.
> 
> I would apologize, but I guess that won't make up for this innate bias you're convinced I have.
> 
> For the record, I try my best not to be typist. Have I been typist in the past? Definitely. Do I try my absolute best to root it out? Yes. I make jokes. I made a joke about Ned. But I don't think I'm typist. I think I try my best, and I'm working to get better. If that's not enough for you, I don't know. I really don't know.
> 
> I probably need some time to calm down now, honestly. I don't even know what to say. Bye for now, I guess.


I have nothing against you, Bear. I just don't agree with the way you view certain functions, Si especially.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @fair phantom I just think, though. What would learning you were a child of incest do? The days of the Targaryens are gone. I imagine with some certainty that Cersei would have to keep her children in the Free Cities under disguise to escape capital punishment for her crimes against King Robert. I don't think she would have access to any of her Lannister wealth. That's mostly why it freaks me out. In my eyes, how I understand the story, even from Ned's own words (as in: he completely understood this would happen to her, her poverty and disguise and running for her life) he would ruin her.
> 
> And the thing is, even though I love Shireen... I don't care about who the throne belongs to. IMO it doesn't belong to anyone. I don't believe in birthright. At all. Part of why I can't stand Stannis either, or Ned -- they were hung up on birthright. Heck, I hate that about Dany too. They don't realize that like it doesn't matter where they come from, that they were born privileged. IMO Shireen has just as much a right as anyone
> 
> And I know this is an unfair judgment because obviously everyone in the realm believes in birthright, like that's how their world operates,
> 
> But Ned could have been like Littlefinger. Like Varys. He could have let it go. No, they weren't born for this throne. _But who cares. _ him, obviously, but I think that him and everyone else who cares about birthright is stupid when it comes to that. Let them be. Don't punish them and - in my understanding of the world as well as I believe Ned's own - exile them to live lives of pain. Don't do that to them. Let them be. Let them live. Secure the realm, protect the lives of your family and your people. It doesn't matter whose blood is on the throne. It _really_ doesn't.
> 
> I just... yeah it blows my mind why he got so hung up on this. Honestly.


Well Robert was his best friend, though Robert didn't deserve him tbh.

Yes learning that they were children of incest might have been hard...but it was either that or being the children of a marriage between people who hate each other. And Cersei would never have needed to tell them why they were leaving King's Landing. She could have made something up.

Yes. Littlefinger. Didn't care because he is amoral. Was perfectly happy to exploit it though. And while show!Varys appears to be different, in the book he would have had to take down the Lannisters eventually for his plan (*cough*Kevan Lannister*cough*).

Actually, with those two in mind, her taking Ned's warning would have been the best thing Cersei could have done for her kids, though I don't fault her for not having extraordinary foresight anymore than I blame Ned for the same lack.

Cersei and Tywin would have found a way to get money to her. Remember the Crown was already heavily in debt to Tywin so what could they do if he wanted to send her money or give Joffrey Casterly Rock? And I think if Ned was still involved Cersei and kids weren't going to get hunted down (see: his NOPE-ing at the idea of killing Dany).


----------



## fair phantom

Oh dear. :sad:


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Pottermore sorted me into Slytherin. Suits me just fine; I like it there.


What is the "Pottermore" talk. Is it an official test? I feel like I missed out on a movement.... I know I have taken a cpl online tests, and usually get Ravenclaw, which is weird, considering T is inferior (most likely). Is there some kind of link?


----------



## orbit

I think Bear appears typist because...

Like I don't want to be called quiet. It doesn't empower me and I don't identify with it. Does it mean I have a bias against quiet people?
No. 

It's the same with Si for alittlebear I believe


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I think Bear appears typist because...
> 
> Like I don't want to be called quiet. It doesn't empower me and I don't identify with it. Does it mean I have a bias against quiet people?
> No.
> 
> It's the same with Si for alittlebear I believe


"Typist" suggests a person is consciously biased and does it in a negative way. That's not what I believe about alittlebear. She has simply made statements in the past that betray an unconscious bias against sensing. I would say most people here have some sort of bias, whether they're aware of it or not.


----------



## fair phantom

Take care of yourself @alittlebear . I hope you feel better both physically and emotionally.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> "Typist" suggests a person is consciously biased and does it in a negative way. That's not what I believe about alittlebear. She has simply made statements in the past that betray an unconscious bias against sensing. I would say most people here have some sort of bias, whether they're aware of it or not.


Ah so then why did you specifically point her out though? You kind of made the post all about her and that made things more personal. I'd understand it more if you were just correcting the general attitude of bias against sensors


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> What is the "Pottermore" talk. Is it an official test? I feel like I missed out on a movement.... I know I have taken a cpl online tests, and usually get Ravenclaw, which is weird, considering T is inferior (most likely). Is there some kind of link?


https://www.pottermore.com/en-us/ (you have to go through a few things to get to the quiz)

You can get all of that test's questions here, but it lacks the cool images, so I suggest doing it second.

HelloQuizzy.com: The Pottermore Sorting Hat (All Questions) Test


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Ah so then why did you specifically point her out though? You kind of made the post all about her and that made things more personal. I'd understand it more if you were just correcting the general attitude of bias against sensors


She was the one to make the comment. No other reason. I've pointed it out in others before.


----------



## Persephone Soul

@fair phantom - Gracias, mi amiga!


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> She was the one to make the comment. No other reason. I've pointed it out in others before.


Ah well ^^' I understand but it was rather accusatory and it could have been worded more gently. Some people are more sensitive than others and to treat everyone the same is rather harsh. 

I agree with you that sensor bias should be weeded out and I like that you point it out though with everyone 

Not that you need my approval


----------



## Tad Cooper

ElliCat said:


> Oh I hate that! Sometimes I try and get it wrong a few times and it's like, why can't you people just ABSORB my intentions?! This whole putting-things-into-words is so tiresome. That's why I write so much... it's kind of like shooting in all different directions at once, in the hope that one bullet might actually strike its target.


Yeah, its very hard to just express an internal thought or feeling with something as limited as language.



ElliCat said:


> Fi-dom. Possibly Ji-dom, although I feel like Ti might have a bit less trouble finding the right words. Am I completely wrong @_tine_?


I think ti is more concerned with finding the right words, but wont necessarily find it easier...Im not 100% though!


----------



## Tad Cooper

fair phantom said:


> https://www.pottermore.com/en-us/ (you have to go through a few things to get to the quiz)
> 
> You can get all of that test's questions here, but it lacks the cool images, so I suggest doing it second.
> 
> HelloQuizzy.com: The Pottermore Sorting Hat (All Questions) Test


I did it and know very little about HP!
Hufflepuff 10 Ravenclaw, 12 Hufflepuff, 10 Slytherin and 8 Gryffindor!
*“You might belong in Hufflepuff, Where they are just and loyal, Those patient Hufflepuffs are true, And unafraid of toil.” *


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Ah well ^^' I understand but it was rather accusatory and it could have been worded more gently. Some people are more sensitive than others and to treat everyone the same is rather harsh.
> 
> I agree with you that sensor bias should be weeded out and I like that you point it out though with everyone
> 
> Not that you need my approval


I understand. 

Truthfully, it gets tiresome to constantly hear people putting down functions you may relate to (whether they mean to or not). Te/Fi is another one of those.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I understand.
> 
> Truthfully, it gets tiresome to constantly hear people putting down functions you may relate to (whether they mean to or not). Te/Fi is another one of those.


I felt systematically placed in the Fe/Ti direction because of that ^^ 
Makes a lot of confusion and in general, it hurts to see parts of you being dissed

Of course I'm not tired because I haven't seen months of it like you have 

Can we move on now?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I felt systematically placed in the Fe/Ti direction because of that ^^
> Makes a lot of confusion and in general, it hurts to see parts of you being dissed
> 
> Of course I'm not tired because I haven't seen months of it like you have
> 
> Can we move on now?


Of course. I don't care for fighting.


----------



## orbit

Well then

I've been Hufflepuff for a long time I think. People typically agree that I'm Hufflepuff when I ask them ^^

Sometimes I get Ravenclaw though


----------



## owlet

fair phantom said:


> HelloQuizzy.com: The Pottermore Sorting Hat (All Questions) Test


Hufflepuff 7 Ravenclaw, 17 Hufflepuff, 4 Slytherin and 9 Gryffindor!
*“You might belong in Hufflepuff, Where they are just and loyal, Those patient Hufflepuffs are true, And unafraid of toil.” * 

Woah. Why such a high score on Hufflepuff suddenly? (I am a bit afraid of toil...)


----------



## fair phantom

I like many ASOIF/GOT characters and love several. :/

though in some cases I have to ignore certain show scenes and sometimes I feel differently about book and show versions of the character.

ETA: do most people watch it for primarily intellectual reasons or...? I mean I am fascinated by the deconstruction and power dynamics as well, but if I didn't also care about the characters I don't know that I would have watched this long....


----------



## Persephone Soul

Angelcat. .. would I happen to be the 'ESFJ' you speak of in your recent blog post? Lol! Seems quite familiar. ..


----------



## orbit

Question (obviously): How much should one take stock into descriptions? For example, if the functions fit right apparently but the descriptions are off? The functions seem to work but the overal "type" doesn't? I feel like I know the answer but it'd be nice to her it.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Question (obviously): How much should one take stock into descriptions? For example, if the functions fit right apparently but the descriptions are off? The functions seem to work but the overal "type" doesn't? I feel like I know the answer but it'd be nice to her it.


Descriptions are like horoscope readings, nice if they fit, but don't sweat it if they don't. :tongue:


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> Angelcat. .. would I happen to be the 'ESFJ' you speak of in your recent blog post? Lol! Seems quite familiar. ..


nope; talking on the phone to her right now.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Angelcat. .. would I happen to be the 'ESFJ' you speak of in your recent blog post? Lol! Seems quite familiar. ..
> 
> 
> 
> nope; talking on the phone to her right now.
Click to expand...


How funny. Do you see the similarities, though? I felt like you were speaking to me (even though I highly doubted it actually was about me).

And for EVERYONE, here is a nifty little quiz on the GoT characters. I got Varys, hah!
http://www.helloquizzy.com/quizzy/take


----------



## Barakiel

Well, since the well has gone dry, let me come as a sort of nimbus cloud. :laughing:

Is there any specific function/type you envy? @alittlebear, @shinynotshiny, @fair phantom, @Living dead, please, feel free. :wink:

ETA: Actually, let's pull out all the stops. @Oswin, @SugarPlum, @laurie17, @angelcat, @Curiphant, @hoopla. :kitteh:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Well, I have thought about ESFJ. I seem to get a lot of my energy from interacting with people, making them laugh, conversing with them in the buzz of the moment. Just from other people's energy. Living in the moment.


I can see where you were typed ESTP tbh. Sensor, Ti-Fe either way.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> But, I also have a practical mind map. I can compare people, faces, videos and movies with each other. I have a decent memory and am good at recalling details. I think I am a sensor, regardless of type. But I think I have an "alright" Intuitive side..


Explain this intuitive side?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, it'a confusing, but a good thing we narrowed it down to two types? I can't see ENFJ, can you? Definitely not INFJ. And I don't have enough Intuition to be an NTP either..


I agree; I think you're a sensor as well. Always nice to see someone open to the possibility. 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Well, also I pretty much had ADHD throughout school, so that didn't help things a lot. Did it? I found paying attention difficult. I found most theoretical subjects a pain in the ass. Too much to process..


Is there anything that helps you comprehend theoretical subjects?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I found languages fascinating because of the culture behind them. How they pronounced certain words and how they compared to the English language. And I found them more useful than Mathematical stuff I was never gonna need to use past my exams..


I felt the same way about math, until I realized certain aspects are actually useful. I'm considering taking a stab at statistics; knowing when an empirical study or research paper is fraudulent or erroneous is a useful skill. I was weak in geometry, and still have yet to use it to a great extent. I wish school was more individualistic in terms of study, but that would result in a tangent. 

I attempted to learn languages but I always ceased to learn to a deep extent. I didn't take language in high school due to the alternative one I went to that offered no foreign language classes. I dropped out of French in mainstream HS out of public speaking anxiety. My high school educated sucked, though I passed albeit late and with decent grades once life was finally gleaming. Never too late to learn I suppose. Mostly for me I find language gripping due to communication aspects and practical opportunities, but words origins are interesting too. The meaning/origin mostly, but also the cultural aspects. I want memento mori tattooed. 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> In science, practical observations and experiments were fascinating because I could see and understand the theories and sciences in action. I remember doing an experiement comparing diaper brands. That was fun.


This is why I think sensor, possibly Se considering the "in action," hands on angle. You looked Ne-ish (def not dominate) but I'm often wrong. Needing concrete examples to understand things is pm S.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Drama was fun, and acting out Romeo and Juliet was amazing. The expressions used and Shakespeare's writing was fascinating to me. We done the original play..


What particularly was amazing about acting, if you can explain?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I was good at Citizenship and R.E. I had a natural flare for them. And I was naturally talented at creative writing because I wrote the first thing that came to my head. It usually turned out good for some reason..


Like many, I believe writing is the best when inspiration just hits you. Writing pieces strike me at random (if I bother to follow through), at the strangest of places. Sometimes this is an ignition that sparks a bunch of flames until the fire burns out and I don't write for a month, until another match is lit. If I try to write the first thing that comes to mind, it sucks or it's gibberish. They just come to me, really. You're lucky.





LuchoIsLurking said:


> Independent thinking mode? Huh? What's that? Everyone does that, right? Well, I usually think a lot at night when I have nothing to do or learn. I know I can consciously think for myself and come to my own logical conclusions, but sometimes it may take me longer to relax and get inside my own head and start to think logically, because my thoughts are going 24/7 in my head. You know?.


The internal thinking that deflects consensus. Picking things apart to find the truth within them. Not everyone does that, no. Strange... you can't think in your own head because your thoughts are going 24/7? Isn't the latter still thinking in your head? There must be a subtle discrepancy I am missing. Does not compute.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I definitely think that I am more aware of the practical side of things (and probably society/humans) than my own thought processes. I know they exist and I know they have had decent usage, but not recently if that makes sense? I haven't sat down and tried to logically desconstruct anything using my own logical framework in about... a week? It could be from tiredness, being unemployed, bored or just having nothing to think about. I mean, I still have two more senses than most people do; common sense, and a sense of humor ;D I use them a lot .


Hard to believe one would not be logical for a week, even inferior T types. Perhaps it's biweekly thinking for them though. ;P (jk)

What sorts of things trigger analytical deconstruct mode?

What is common sense to you?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> You can be as logical or theoretical as you like inside your mind, but you still gotta apply it to reality and for it to make sense to other people for them to take you seriously. I am learning this now. You gotta get down with the people, and relate to them. Not have them control you completely, but respect them, stand up for yourself/people that need stood up for and be relevant or you're screwed..


And that's Fe, in good use, but feels subordinate to Ti to me? Idk, you don't strike me as ENTP, but you don't strike me as a Feeler either. I think Ti is stronger. 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I can adapt to changes quickly. I can use my past knowledge to learn things. I can be the nicest person in the world, but I still have an edge to myself. I won't be pushed over unnessecarily. I will respect you. I will honor your choices as long as you don't toy me about. You know?.


Ha, I won't mess with you then.  Are you protective of others toyed about as well? 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Imo everyone uses past knowledge to learn things. Math is a past knowledge, if you think about it..


Adapting to changes... Se maybe? Any changes that throw you throw a loop?




LuchoIsLurking said:


> Cultural? Possibly, but I think it was more to do with the way I was brought up. My Dad wanted us to be able to think for ourselves, stand up for ourselves, be good, honest citizens and accept God as our Savior. He didn't want us to moan/complain or be overly emotional. He just wanted us to solve our problems rationally, rather than talk things through. And just grow up and not be wusses..


My feminism was just kicking in.

I can't imagine that. I grew up around emotional women though, so my background was drastically different. I suppose good values can come out of that philosophy though.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think that shaped me a lot, but I also repressed a lot of my emotions in an unhealthy manner. I used to think I was bipolar because my emotions changed so fast. I used to be very angry and destroy objects because I couldn't let it out the way I was meant to.
> 
> Nowadays, I find talking things over and venting to be a lot easier, and I have learned not to be ashamed of mine or anyone else's emotions and that they are not weaknesses and a normal part of human nature.
> 
> I find singing, acting, venting and going for walks a great release for my frustrations. I'm not afraid to cry in public anymore, which is a big think for me. I let it out in a healthy manner now.


I still can't cry in public, lol. Not comfortably, anyway.

This was a block of Fe, but it strikes me as low order. Something that came gradually, at time, until it suddenly just clicked. 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> (And even if I am an Si Aux, I will still have decent extroverted sensing, as it is my sixth function. And vice versa.).


Explain your relationship to Se.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I can live in the moment, I can take in a lot of sensory stimuli and act on my impulses, but I can also focus on one object and compare it to past memories and see how much it weighs up. This is where I am confused.


I can see how you're confused about Se Vs Si. You're tricky for some reason. Idk why I saw Te at first either, lol. Fe and Ti are pretty clear, at least.

Explain the contrast and compare a bit more? Particularly what triggers it.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> Question (obviously).


It could be rhetorical for all we know. 



Curiphant said:


> How much should one take stock into descriptions? For example, if the functions fit right apparently but the descriptions are off? The functions seem to work but the overal "type" doesn't? I feel like I know the answer but it'd be nice to her it.


Depends on the sources.

Anything on PersonalityPage should be taken as astrology at best. So broadly written. Those descriptions could apply to anyone.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Portrait of an ISFJ

No wonder people hate ISFJs, and ISFJs mistype themselves as N.

This is probably the most cringeworthy of all:



> ISFJs learn best by doing, rather than by reading about something in a book, or applying theory. For this reason, they are not likely to be found in fields which require a lot of conceptual analysis or theory. They value practical application. Traditional methods of higher education, which require a lot of theorizing and abstraction, are likely to be a chore for the ISFJ.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I feel like Si is higher than my Ne, but I feel like I really do use Fi. And I am a feeler. So that is my hang up. Right now. Ahhhhh

To be honest, it would help if someone (that believes I an Fe user) could prove it. I really am open to it. It would be easier. 

I feel like I am a sensor, introvert and feeler. 

Anyone? Hoopla, I know you are staying away because you felt attacked probably, and you probably feel like I am close minded to your opinions. But any proof you can bring would help. If you dont this time around, I know you would rather not, and I will leave you alone lol.

xSFJ or xNFP friends?... please?

Should I make, yet another thread? I feel like y'all know enough about me now.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> It could be rhetorical for all we know.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the sources.
> 
> Anything on PersonalityPage should be taken as astrology at best. So broadly written. Those descriptions could apply to anyone.


Good point (about the rhetorical)

Tumblr blogs, YouTube videos, various websites etc. but mostly tumblr? 

General/broad descriptions can be broken though

It just makes me nervous sometimes when I read "blala is a staple in blalala" or "being boisterous is a key component to being ESFP" or whatever. It makes it sound so necessary?

But of course people can use their functions in different ways that are ultimately the same...?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> Good point (about the rhetorical)
> 
> Tumblr blogs, YouTube videos, various websites etc. but mostly tumblr?
> 
> General/broad descriptions can be broken though
> 
> It just makes me nervous sometimes when I read "blala is a staple in blalala" or "being boisterous is a key component to being ESFP" or whatever. It makes it sound so necessary?
> 
> But of course people can use their functions in different ways that are ultimately the same...?


I think a lot of the descriptions of ESFP are stereotypical. Makes them sound like always on the go, wreckless, and a party animal. I don't think that's the case.

Jung is probably best, but he's pretty hard to decipher, ngl.
@fair phantom was right though when she said Jung depicted unhealthy versions of function types. They were meant to depict a minority of folks with a main differentiated function (pure types). I think in some ways, this is good, because allows us to see the flaws in each type rather than idealize specific ones, which leads to mistyping. Ni is the all knowing, insightful, deep mystic on the internet, and yet Jung paints Ni as feeble minded fools with incomprehensible visions that are stubborn in nature and completely removed from reality. I think our job is to depict how these types would play out in healthier individuals with more amalgamation of their functions.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Good point (about the rhetorical)
> 
> Tumblr blogs, YouTube videos, various websites etc. but mostly tumblr?
> 
> General/broad descriptions can be broken though
> 
> It just makes me nervous sometimes when I read "blala is a staple in blalala" or "being boisterous is a key component to being ESFP" or whatever. It makes it sound so necessary?
> 
> But of course people can use their functions in different ways that are ultimately the same...?


Well, if you don't mind comparisons, I think Kyouko from Madoka Magica is a good ESFP, if only one that regrows into her Fi.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> I think a lot of the descriptions of ESFP are stereotypical. Makes them sound like always on the go, wreckless, and a party animal. I don't think that's the case.
> 
> Jung is probably best, but he's pretty hard to decipher, ngl.
> @fair phantom was right though when she said Jung depicted unhealthy versions of function types. They were meant to depict a minority of folks with a main differentiated function (pure types). I think in some ways, this is good, because allows us to see the flaws in each type rather than idealize specific ones, which leads to mistyping. Ni is the all knowing, insightful, deep mystic on the internet, and yet Jung paints Ni as feeble minded fools with incomprehensible visions that are stubborn in nature and completely removed from reality. I think our job is to depict how these types would play out in healthier individuals with more amalgamation of their functions.


Perhaps one day, in the summer, I'll read Jung without feeling tight ^^

I've been reading XSFP descriptions and I believe I have the functions for it, but it's mildly concerning to see oneself described as an intensely private artist or musician or sports person or a constant, funloving socializer and not relate to the type you supposedly are. It's probably silly though, this concern.


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> I feel like Si is higher than my Ne, but I feel like I really do use Fi. And I am a feeler. So that is my hang up. Right now. Ahhhhh
> 
> To be honest, it would help if someone (that believes I an Fe user) could prove it. I really am open to it. It would be easier.
> 
> I feel like I am a sensor, introvert and feeler.
> 
> Anyone? Hoopla, I know you are staying away because you felt attacked probably, and you probably feel like I am close minded to your opinions. But any proof you can bring would help. If you dont this time around, I know you would rather not, and I will leave you alone lol.
> 
> xSFJ or xNFP friends?... please?
> 
> Should I make, yet another thread? I feel like y'all know enough about me now.


haha well the fact you want it "proven" suggests you have some Te in your stack. (I'm mostly joking, Ti will also probably want to hear an argument made but the language you used was so Te.)

@Barakiel Function Envy? Honestly just about every function, when used well, has something to it that I envy. Even if it is a function I use but in a different place in the stack, or used in other combinations: I feel like the heroic Hi Fi-users are _always_ SFPs. 

I probably envy Ni and Ti the most, and I envy how much better Fe tends to be at social things (not always, you can have awkward Fe users, but I do envy the Margaery Tyrells of the world.).

How Enneagram 4 am I? ^^;;;

@hoopla @Curiphant I finished _Psychological Types_ and was pleased that at the end when he wrote:



> In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that such pure types occur at all frequently in actual practice. The are, as it were, only Galtonesque family-portraits, which sum up in a cumulative image the common and therefore typical characters, stressing these disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced.


I think this needs to be kept in mind whenever Jung is invoked in typing.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> I feel like Si is higher than my Ne, but I feel like I really do use Fi. And I am a feeler. So that is my hang up. Right now. Ahhhhh
> 
> To be honest, it would help if someone (that believes I an Fe user) could prove it. I really am open to it. It would be easier.
> 
> I feel like I am a sensor, introvert and feeler.
> 
> Anyone? Hoopla, I know you are staying away because you felt attacked probably, and you probably feel like I am close minded to your opinions. But any proof you can bring would help. If you dont this time around, I know you would rather not, and I will leave you alone lol.
> 
> xSFJ or xNFP friends?... please?
> 
> Should I make, yet another thread? I feel like y'all know enough about me now.


Sure, make another thread, really no downside to it, and maybe you'll get something out of it. Be sure to tag @alittlebear and @angelcat, they're pretty good examples of Fe, and from what I know, @fair phantom and @TelepathicGoose know Fi rather well. :happy:


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Well, if you don't mind comparisons, I think Kyouko from Madoka Magica is a good ESFP, if only one that regrows into her Fi.


I related to both Sayaka and Kyoko (sorry this is my cousin's name so I spell it her way) the most out of the five ^^


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel Function Envy? Honestly just about every function, when used well, has something to it that I envy. Even if it is a function I use but in a different place in the stack, or used in other combinations: I feel like the heroic Hi Fi-users are _always_ SFPs.
> 
> I probably envy Ni and Ti the most, and I envy how much better Fe tends to be at social things (not always, you can have awkward Fe users, but I do envy the Margaery Tyrells of the world.).
> 
> How Enneagram 4 am I? ^^;;;


Ah, right. I just have this theory that people envy the functions they can't use, or use as well. For example, me with Fi and Ni, it's why I don't like ISFPs. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> I related to both Sayaka and Kyoko (sorry this is my cousin's name so I spell it her way) the most out of the five ^^


Eh, Kyoko, Kyouko, same difference.  Should I be weary that you relate to Sayaka, however? :wink:


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Eh, Kyoko, Kyouko, same difference.  Should I be weary that you relate to Sayaka, however? :wink:


Only in the beginning did I relate. I don't believe in sacrificing my soul for unappreciative, unasking, clueless people. Too romantic.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Only in the beginning did I relate. I don't believe in sacrificing my soul for unappreciative, unasking, clueless people. Too romantic.


Haha, fair enough. I actually related more to Homura at the start, though maybe it's cause I've been playing the part of a cynic for the past 3 years.  Still, Mami's awesome. :laughing:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> Perhaps one day, in the summer, I'll read Jung without feeling tight ^^
> 
> I've been reading XSFP descriptions and I believe I have the functions for it, but it's mildly concerning to see oneself described as an intensely private artist or musician or sports person or a constant, funloving socializer and not relate to the type you supposedly are. It's probably silly though, this concern.


I don't think Se types have to be these things. Many are, but due to the motivation behind it. You don't have to be a stereotype if your motivation fits your type: Engagement of the sensory; fullness of actual living; manipulating life in all of it's forms.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> I don't think Se types have to be these things. Many are, but due to the motivation behind it. You don't have to be a stereotype if your motivation fits your type. Engagement of the sensory; fullness of actual living; manipulating life in all of it's forms.


I relate to that ^^ 

Thank you for clearing that up
--

(Me voy a la cama)


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Haha, fair enough. I actually related more to Homura at the start, though maybe it's cause I've been playing the part of a cynic for the past 3 years.  Still, Mami's awesome. :laughing:


I simultaneously related to Homura and Madoka, which is weird. 

Sayaka was my least favourite, but she did redeem herself in Rebellion.

Is it even possible to not like Mami?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Thank you, guys. I think I will just sit back and observe for awhile. :th_woot:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I simultaneously related to Homura and Madoka, which is weird.
> 
> Sayaka was my least favourite, but she did redeem herself in Rebellion.
> 
> Is it even possible to not like Mami?


I liked Homura cause she basically shut down any idealistic thoughts from our main character, kind of why I like Archer, but he's a lot more snarky. :laughing:

Strangely enough, the main reason I liked Mami was because she just seems like she's having so much fun with everything, and is generally the Cool Big Sis trope. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Well, since the well has gone dry, let me come as a sort of nimbus cloud. :laughing:
> 
> Is there any specific function/type you envy? @alittlebear, @shinynotshiny, @fair phantom, @Living dead, please, feel free. :wink:
> 
> ETA: Actually, let's pull out all the stops. @Oswin, @SugarPlum, @laurie17, @angelcat, @Curiphant, @hoopla. :kitteh:


Fi. It seems really cool. I really like ISFPs especially. They have a cool droopy cinnamonness to them. Which is why I was so excited to be one...
(But I've decided I'm not. For the time being I think I am ENFJ. Considering that everyone on my Socionics questionnaire has said so, there was some NFJ support over here, and...it just seems better).
But yeah, Fi and Se are two of my favorite functions)


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Fi. It seems really cool. I really like ISFPs especially. They have a cool droopy cinnamonness to them. Which is why I was so excited to be one...
> (But I've decided I'm not. For the time being I think I am ENFJ. Considering that everyone on my Socionics questionnaire has said so, there was some NFJ support over here, and...it just seems better).
> But yeah, Fi and Se are two of my favorite functions)


I see what you mean, I envy Fi and Ni's assurance in their goals, I really don't have that.  Oh, and because Fi dominants never bloody give up. We seem have that in common. :laughing: But jesus, how many Fe doms are here, they're surrounding me. :wink:


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

hoopla said:


> Portrait of an ISFJ
> 
> No wonder people hate ISFJs, and ISFJs mistype themselves as N.
> 
> This is probably the most cringeworthy of all:


Ew, agreed.

I've been talking with someone this evening who thinks I might be an IS*T*J. The only decent ISTJ (or any SJ) descriptions are in Socionics. PersonalityPage's portraits are awful; they make all SJs sound so _monumentally boring_, like you said, no one types as such.


----------



## Barakiel

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Ew, agreed.
> 
> I've been talking with someone this evening who thinks I might be an IS*T*J. The only decent ISTJ (or any SJ) descriptions are in Socionics. PersonalityPage's portraits are awful; they make all SJs sound so _monumentally boring_, like you said, no one types as such.


Why wouldn't you want to be the same type as Saber or James Norrington? (Sorry, only ISTJs I'm familiar with that are better than the norm. :wink: )


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Barakiel said:


> Why wouldn't you want to be the same type as Saber or James Norington? (Sorry, only ISTJs I'm familiar with that are better than the norm. :wink: )


My greatest objection at the moment is some discomfort with being a Te-Fi user (a dislike really only based in stereotype that says Fe-Ti/Ti-Fe is "better"). But outside of that...it doesn't sound that bad. 

Though I don't know who either of those people are, not without looking them up.


----------



## Barakiel

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> My greatest objection at the moment is some discomfort with being a Te-Fi user (a dislike really only based in stereotype that says Fe-Ti/Ti-Fe is "better"). But outside of that...it doesn't sound that bad.
> 
> Though I don't know who either of those people are, not without looking them up.


I get what you mean, sometimes I look down on Te and Fi, cause of the stereotypes that Fe and Ti are more flexible. And as for who they are, Saber's from Fate/Stay Night, and James Norrington is from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, at least the first three. :laughing: They're both good examples of healthy Fi and reasonable Si.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Ew, agreed.
> 
> I've been talking with someone this evening who thinks I might be an IS*T*J. The only decent ISTJ (or any SJ) descriptions are in Socionics. PersonalityPage's portraits are awful; they make all SJs sound so _monumentally boring_, like you said, no one types as such.


They remind me of astrology. Personality page is particularly vulnerable to the forer effect. The most vague of all the personality type websites... and the sensors are portrayed as either unintelligent and boring or superficial and shallow. It's a hot mess.

16personalities is a bit better, but still very vague and stereotypical. Their SJ descriptions are somewhat passable, at least.


----------



## Rebel Sheep

How I feel preparing to read 100+ pages of this thread












Barakiel said:


> See, this is what happens when I sleep, I miss stuff! Therefore, I should never sleep!


This is the most EXTP ever.

Also I'm going to defend Stannis' action:

* *




This really has to do with my philosophy with leadership. 




Many people simply cannot be good leaders because they aren't willing to do the right thing over the pleasant thing. Stannis' is one of the those few leaders who will always do the right thing over the popular or pleasant thing and that's something I've always respected about his character. What he wants is irrelevant, as through accepting the leadership role, it is his job to ensure the well-being of all of his people, not just himself. Did he want to kill Shireen? Of course not, but you have to understand his situation. He was essentially screwed. He had no resources, and if he had kept on waiting, the Boltons would of killed all of his men and flayed his entire family. Stannis recognized he needed to do the right thing, even if it means ultimate self-sacrifice. I actually enjoy seeing Stannis' hard-ass extremist leadership because I feel that what he represents as a character. _Fiat justitia ruat caelum_


----------



## Barakiel

Avalnoah said:


> This is the most EXTP ever.
> 
> Also I'm going to defend Stannis' action:
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This really has to do with my philosophy with leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many people simply cannot be good leaders because they aren't willing to do the right thing over the pleasant thing. Stannis' is one of the those few leaders who will always do the right thing over the popular or pleasant thing and that's something I've always respected about his character. What he wants is irrelevant, as through accepting the leadership role, it is his job to ensure the well-being of all of his people, not just himself. Did he want to kill Shireen? Of course not, but you have to understand his situation. He was essentially screwed. He had no resources, and if he had kept on waiting, the Boltons would of killed all of his men and flayed his entire family. Stannis recognized he needed to do the right thing, even if it means ultimate self-sacrifice. I actually enjoy seeing Stannis' hard-ass extremist leadership because I feel that what he represents as a character. _Fiat justitia ruat caelum_


Glad to have your approval. :laughing:

On Stannis, I kind of agree with you, he reminds me of Lelouch from Code Geass, except way less charismatic and remorseful. I'm just really wondering if the Iron Throne is worth everyone killing each other, like Tyrion said. I can respect Stannis's resolve, though. :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Someone help me with Te. (Hopefully this won't fan the flames of the earlier ISTJ fiasco :/) Te frustrates me. I want to like it, along with the other functions, but it's just...
For some reason, maybe because I was trying to figure out if I use Ni or not, I was looking back to my college 'career' and recalling how, in high school, I really wanted to figure out what my plan was for my life, and people kept telling me not to worry about it, that I'd figure it out...and I _didn't_ figure it out, and I ended up quitting university because I basically had no clue what I was doing there. (Is that Ni-ish?) I brought this up to my IxTJ (I believe) mother as sort-of a 'what happened there/ah the irony of life' thing ... which somehow led to an argument about that situation. She was saying, she had referred me to career counselors, who knew all about careers. I was saying that no, I hadn't wanted to speak to career counselors or strangers who didn't know about me, I wanted to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, what I should be doing ...with someone who knew me. She said that she didn't know that much about career paths and I should talk to an expert. I said that I didn't want to know specifics about careers, I could find that out on my own, I wanted to be figuring out where I wanted to be in life, or where I was going, not looking at specific details.

(I recognize that it may have sounded like I was blaming her for my failure hence it being an argument, not a discussion...but that wasn't my intention nor is it my point)

So here is what I want insight on:

1. Was my desire to figure out where I was going exactly and feeling of stress and defeat when I didn't know it a Ni thing?
2. Was my desire to talk to someone who knew me, not a random stranger, a Fi thing?
3. Can someone explain how Te isn't frustrating, how it works to use it? To me, hearing responses to my problems or just questions with things like, "Talk to an authority" or "go do research" are both incredibly grating, dismissing and irrelevant. Although I know that my mother does not mean it this way. She thinks "I don't know all the facts about careers so I cannot discuss them" or something. But for me, it feels like talking to a brick wall. If I decide I want to be a vintner, I'll go talk to some expert or get advice...but if I don't want to be a vintner, I don't see how it'll help to be hearing lots of facts about how to get into the wine game. 

It's not just this conversation, I feel this way towards Te a lot. I do not mean to seem rude, I don't mean this mean-spiritedly...I just want some perspective of how Te really is and why it is the way it is.










Jk. I just...the scuffle earlier brought it up in my mind, and then the frustrating conversation with my mother continued it...help me like Te.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Someone help me with Te. (Hopefully this won't fan the flames of the earlier ISTJ fiasco :/) Te frustrates me. I want to like it, along with the other functions, but it's just...
> For some reason, maybe because I was trying to figure out if I use Ni or not, I was looking back to my college 'career' and recalling how, in high school, I really wanted to figure out what my plan was for my life, and people kept telling me not to worry about it, that I'd figure it out...and I _didn't_ figure it out, and I ended up quitting university because I basically had no clue what I was doing there. (Is that Ni-ish?) I brought this up to my IxTJ (I believe) mother as sort-of a 'what happened there/ah the irony of life' thing ... which somehow led to an argument about that situation. She was saying, she had referred me to career counselors, who knew all about careers. I was saying that no, I hadn't wanted to speak to career counselors or strangers who didn't know about me, I wanted to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, what I should be doing ...with someone who knew me. She said that she didn't know that much about career paths and I should talk to an expert. I said that I didn't want to know specifics about careers, I could find that out on my own, I wanted to be figuring out where I wanted to be in life, or where I was going, not looking at specific details.
> 
> (I recognize that it may have sounded like I was blaming her for my failure hence it being an argument, not a discussion...but that wasn't my intention nor is it my point)
> 
> So here is what I want insight on:
> 
> 1. Was my desire to figure out where I was going exactly and feeling of stress and defeat when I didn't know it a Ni thing?
> 2. Was my desire to talk to someone who knew me, not a random stranger, a Fi thing?
> 3. Can someone explain how Te isn't frustrating, how it works to use it? To me, hearing responses to my problems or just questions with things like, "Talk to an authority" or "go do research" are both incredibly grating, dismissing and irrelevant. Although I know that my mother does not mean it this way. She thinks "I don't know all the facts about careers so I cannot discuss them" or something. But for me, it feels like talking to a brick wall. If I decide I want to be a vintner, I'll go talk to some expert or get advice...but if I don't want to be a vintner, I don't see how it'll help to be hearing lots of facts about how to get into the wine game.
> 
> It's not just this conversation, I feel this way towards Te a lot. I do not mean to seem rude, I don't mean this mean-spiritedly...I just want some perspective of how Te really is and why it is the way it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jk. I just...the scuffle earlier brought it up in my mind, and then the frustrating conversation with my mother continued it...help me like Te.


The way I understand Te, is that it looks for proven facts in reality, and uses that as the basis for its judgments. Compare Fe, which uses proven morals to assert itself, Fi, which uses subjective values alien to most people except the user, and Ti, which uses logic alien to outside reality. :happy:

Off topic, I can empathize with wanting to know what you want to do with your life, it's been a source of frustration for years now. :laughing:

ETA: Just saw that I ignored all your questions. Huh. Well, here are my relatively short answers:

1. Possibly, though I wouldn't ignore the possibility of lower order Ni for that.
2. Nope, actually, coming to a conclusion based on what's happened to you is an Fi-Te thing. Asking others for their conclusions is usually Fe, valuing their viewpoint more than your own.
3. I can't really help you there, it's the Te-Fe divide. Though I will point out that not all Te users are like that.


----------



## ElliCat

13 Ravenclaw, 9 Hufflepuff, 7 Slytherin and 7 Gryffindor! Wooooohooooo!!!



laurie17 said:


> No, I weirdly don't mind prunes (I don't love them but I can eat them), but I can't stand plums or greengages...


Never heard of greengages but otherwise I'm totally the same! Crazy! :O I wonder how it is that just taking most of the water out of plums makes them more edible...??



fair phantom said:


> I probably envy Ni and Ti the most, and I envy how much better Fe tends to be at social things (not always, you can have awkward Fe users, but I do envy the Margaery Tyrells of the world.).
> 
> How Enneagram 4 am I? ^^;;;


Me too, siiigh. >_< And I guess I envy Se and Ti-Fe the most.


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> Me too, siiigh. >_< And I guess I envy Se and Ti-Fe the most.


Huh. Why? Fi and Ne seem pretty cool, being sure of yourself and having creative impulses on your side.


----------



## ElliCat

Oswin said:


> 1. Was my desire to figure out where I was going exactly and feeling of stress and defeat when I didn't know it a Ni thing?
> 2. Was my desire to talk to someone who knew me, not a random stranger, a Fi thing?
> 3. Can someone explain how Te isn't frustrating, how it works to use it? To me, hearing responses to my problems or just questions with things like, "Talk to an authority" or "go do research" are both incredibly grating, dismissing and irrelevant. Although I know that my mother does not mean it this way. She thinks "I don't know all the facts about careers so I cannot discuss them" or something. But for me, it feels like talking to a brick wall. If I decide I want to be a vintner, I'll go talk to some expert or get advice...but if I don't want to be a vintner, I don't see how it'll help to be hearing lots of facts about how to get into the wine game.


1. Not sure. As a high Ne user it wouldn't bother me (I tend to just go for what seems like the best option at the time and see what happens, with the idea I can always change later), but then again it probably would have bothered me more when I was younger and less "developed".
2. I don't know that I feel comfortable narrowing it down to just Fi, but I do relate. If someone's going to give me advice, I want them to have actually taken into account not only the situation, but also my current feelings, and to understand where my boundaries are and that I will not cross them. Most people don't do that, which is why I tend to not take kindly to a lot of advice I'm given. I think it's often given not for the benefit of the receiver, but the benefit of the giver, so that they can feel all fuzzy about being helpful. 
3. For me it's useful to get an idea of how my ideals actually play out in reality. Doing research to see if there's any concrete evidence to back up my gut feelings. Occasionally planning and taking action on my ideas (I wish I could do this more). It makes me want to actually _do_ something to stop myself or other people from hurting. Sympathising/empathising comes so naturally to me that it feels ineffective. Much better to actually tackle the source of the problem and take it away. Now chances are I'm not going to say, "talk to an expert" or "the statistics say blah blah blah so you need to do this", but I'm going to ask a lot of questions with the intention of figuring out exactly what it is that needs to be done. Sometimes someone just needs to be listened to while they talk things out. Sometimes they need someone to do some research for them. I personally haven't found anyone who wants me to tell them what to do, so I won't do it. And I probably wouldn't do it even if they wanted me to, because that's way too much responsibility and I feel like people need to make their own decisions and look after themselves.

Keep in mind lower Te is going to work differently to higher Te. If I think about higher Te, I certainly envy their efficiency and ability to get straight to the point. I don't like stuffing around but I often find myself doing it because my wires get all crossed and I just... forget stuff.

If it really and truly grates on you like no other function does, maybe it's worth looking at IxFJ? PoLR Te?


----------



## ElliCat

Barakiel said:


> Huh. Why? Fi and Ne seem pretty cool, being sure of yourself and having creative impulses on your side.


Se: it'd be really nice to actually be able to live in the moment, get lost in all the sensory details, and I love that xSFP's actually live out their ideals rather than just theorise about them
Ti-Fe: I don't know, I seem to have a thing for Ti users >_> and I'd like to have some of that Fe people-savviness

I WISH Fi = being sure of myself!!! I know who I am but I'm also crippled by self-doubt and Ne doesn't help in that area


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> Se: it'd be really nice to actually be able to live in the moment, get lost in all the sensory details, and I love that xSFP's actually live out their ideals rather than just theorise about them
> Ti-Fe: I don't know, I seem to have a thing for Ti users >_> and I'd like to have some of that Fe people-savviness
> 
> I WISH Fi = being sure of myself!!! I know who I am but I'm also crippled by self-doubt and Ne doesn't help in that area


Yeah, Se is pretty cool, I will admit. :laughing: Though it sucks when you're learning theory in tech class and you can't wait to tear open a computer to the sound of anime music.... Maybe that's just me? :wink:

Oh? What's Fi to you, now I'm curious! :kitteh:


----------



## ElliCat

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, Se is pretty cool, I will admit. :laughing: Though it sucks when you're learning theory in tech class and you can't wait to tear open a computer to the sound of anime music.... Maybe that's just me? :wink:


If I'm bored in class Ne keeps me plenty distracted, so I'm already used to that kind of thing. 



> Oh? What's Fi to you, now I'm curious! :kitteh:


Not applicable to reality!

But seriously, I think it's more unattainable in INFP's because of the Ne. I'm happy to be Fi-dominant, don't get me wrong, but I spend so much time teasing out all the little shades of grey and trying to live up to ideals which nobody could possibly live up to, and having lower Te means I'm quite insecure about my intelligence and my efficiency and my ability to create order out of chaos. So a combination of high idealism when it comes to the self (Fi like Ti seeks control over the inner) and a lack of confidence in actually being able to live up to it... yeah. 

Not to mention all the evidence growing up pointed to there being something wrong with me. I know my feelings but if they don't match up to concrete reality I start to doubt myself.

Sometimes we do come across as overly confident, though, because of communicating through Te. I seem to oscillate between appearing too certain of myself and completely unsure. But it is true that a lot of INFP's struggle with doubting themselves.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Someone help me with Te. (Hopefully this won't fan the flames of the earlier ISTJ fiasco :/) Te frustrates me. I want to like it, along with the other functions, but it's just...
> For some reason, maybe because I was trying to figure out if I use Ni or not, I was looking back to my college 'career' and recalling how, in high school, I really wanted to figure out what my plan was for my life, and people kept telling me not to worry about it, that I'd figure it out...and I _didn't_ figure it out, and I ended up quitting university because I basically had no clue what I was doing there. (Is that Ni-ish?) I brought this up to my IxTJ (I believe) mother as sort-of a 'what happened there/ah the irony of life' thing ... which somehow led to an argument about that situation. She was saying, she had referred me to career counselors, who knew all about careers. I was saying that no, I hadn't wanted to speak to career counselors or strangers who didn't know about me, I wanted to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, what I should be doing ...with someone who knew me. She said that she didn't know that much about career paths and I should talk to an expert. I said that I didn't want to know specifics about careers, I could find that out on my own, I wanted to be figuring out where I wanted to be in life, or where I was going, not looking at specific details.
> 
> (I recognize that it may have sounded like I was blaming her for my failure hence it being an argument, not a discussion...but that wasn't my intention nor is it my point)
> 
> So here is what I want insight on:
> 
> 1. Was my desire to figure out where I was going exactly and feeling of stress and defeat when I didn't know it a Ni thing?
> 2. Was my desire to talk to someone who knew me, not a random stranger, a Fi thing?
> 3. Can someone explain how Te isn't frustrating, how it works to use it? To me, hearing responses to my problems or just questions with things like, "Talk to an authority" or "go do research" are both incredibly grating, dismissing and irrelevant. Although I know that my mother does not mean it this way. She thinks "I don't know all the facts about careers so I cannot discuss them" or something. But for me, it feels like talking to a brick wall. If I decide I want to be a vintner, I'll go talk to some expert or get advice...but if I don't want to be a vintner, I don't see how it'll help to be hearing lots of facts about how to get into the wine game.
> 
> It's not just this conversation, I feel this way towards Te a lot. I do not mean to seem rude, I don't mean this mean-spiritedly...I just want some perspective of how Te really is and why it is the way it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jk. I just...the scuffle earlier brought it up in my mind, and then the frustrating conversation with my mother continued it...help me like Te.


Oh mothers, mine and my wicked stepmother are why I have struggled to like ESFJs (and, to some extent, why I was once wary of hi Fe in general)

1. I think it is likely Ni somewhere in your stack...given how you describe it. I think Si would have a greater interest in details and be more likely to consult a career counselor (however I defer to higher si-users. please tell me if I am mistaken)
2. Not Sure. _Why_ did you want to talk to someone who knew you? why did you think a career counselor wouldn't help? why did you think a non-expert would do better?
3. Well my Te-dom sister would have handled this differently, but her lower functions are well integrated and I think she is a 3 with a strong 2 wing, making her eager to help. She would have asked me questions, probably do research even if I didn't answer. Give me options based on what she knows of the world, my personality, and strengths. If that was insufficient she would have kindly but directly told me that she will help me any way she can but that I ultimately must make the decision myself, and at that point she might refer me to a career counselor.


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> If I'm bored in class Ne keeps me plenty distracted, so I'm already used to that kind of thing.


Oh, well that's rather neat. :laughing:



ElliCat said:


> Not applicable to reality!
> 
> But seriously, I think it's more unattainable in INFP's because of the Ne. I'm happy to be Fi-dominant, don't get me wrong, but I spend so much time teasing out all the little shades of grey and trying to live up to ideals which nobody could possibly live up to, and having lower Te means I'm quite insecure about my intelligence and my efficiency and my ability to create order out of chaos. So a combination of high idealism when it comes to the self (Fi like Ti seeks control over the inner) and a lack of confidence in actually being able to live up to it... yeah.
> 
> Not to mention all the evidence growing up pointed to there being something wrong with me. I know my feelings but if they don't match up to concrete reality I start to doubt myself.
> 
> Sometimes we do come across as overly confident, though, because of communicating through Te. I seem to oscillate between appearing too certain of myself and completely unsure. But it is true that a lot of INFP's struggle with doubting themselves.


Ah, I think I get it now, sorry, I just always thought Fi users were super sure of their convictions, though it just seems like that because they assert with Te. If I may ask, though, what are you unable to live up to, what ideal? :happy:

Huh, perhaps I should look at these guys in a different light.


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> If I'm bored in class Ne keeps me plenty distracted, so I'm already used to that kind of thing.
> 
> 
> Not applicable to reality!
> 
> But seriously, I think it's more unattainable in INFP's because of the Ne. I'm happy to be Fi-dominant, don't get me wrong, but I spend so much time teasing out all the little shades of grey and trying to live up to ideals which nobody could possibly live up to, and having lower Te means I'm quite insecure about my intelligence and my efficiency and my ability to create order out of chaos. So a combination of high idealism when it comes to the self (Fi like Ti seeks control over the inner) and a lack of confidence in actually being able to live up to it... yeah.
> 
> Not to mention all the evidence growing up pointed to there being something wrong with me. I know my feelings but if they don't match up to concrete reality I start to doubt myself.
> 
> Sometimes we do come across as overly confident, though, because of communicating through Te. I seem to oscillate between appearing too certain of myself and completely unsure. But it is true that a lot of INFP's struggle with doubting themselves.


OOf. I relate to all of this so much.


----------



## Dangerose

Thank you @ElliCat and @Barakiel for your responses)

On the Socionics forum people were saying I seemed Si PoLR...which seemed somewhat accurate; there's something about Socionics Si in particular that just creeps me out and makes me feel very unsettled. Te would be a close second choice though -- I could definitely see it, and being an extroverted function, more opportunities pop up for me to be annoyed by it)

However, I think part of the reason it annoys me is that I don't really understand it. I mean, I understand it technically but I don't really get how it feels to use it or . . . something) So I want to see if I can figure that out before I make any conclusions on that)

edit: and @fair phantom) As for why I would want to talk to someone who knows me (for instance, my mother) rather than a career counselor, I think it's the following reasons:

1. I wouldn't want to go to a career counselor without having some basic idea of what I wanted. Otherwise it's like..."Hello, please find me a career". I mean, I exaggerate, but going to the counselor before figuring things out _rough_ly feels like putting the cart before the horse. 

2. Speaking to a career counselor makes me feel . . . pressured to make a decision quickly, or to misrepresent myself like I'm in a job interview almost. You know, I could go in to see a career counselor and they could come to the conclusion that I'd be perfectly suited for a job in computer programming...whereas someone who knows me would know that is not the case. My mother knows my genuine strengths and weaknesses, not the things that you can easily express or explain. I find it difficult to succeed in certain situations and I don't know how I would explain that to a career counselor.

I mean, I know it's what they're trained to do and I probably wanted to benefit that...but I didn't even want to figure out my career, I wanted to figure out my life, and _then_ fit the career into that. I'm not against career counselors, I just thought it was too early in the game to bring them in, like sculpting a nose on a statue before you've decided if you're going to make an elephant or an aardvark.

I should add, this is all water under the bridge now -- I kinda know what path I should have taken then but it's too late so I need to find another path now which will be a different process -- but I'm using the same brain)


----------



## ElliCat

Barakiel said:


> Ah, I think I get it now, sorry, I just always thought Fi users were super sure of their convictions, though it just seems like that because they assert with Te. If I may ask, though, what are you unable to live up to, what ideal? :happy:


Oh I'm _very_ confident when it comes to the _rightness_ of my values and morals. Especially when I'm on my own. It's why I'm not easily manipulated.

I guess the problem is that I'm aware that the world isn't a moral place, and I don't feel right imposing my own values onto others. And I find it too easy to think about situations from other people's perspectives, so sometimes in the heat of the moment I can lose sight of whose perspective has more legitimacy, and because I value not being a selfish arsehat I tend to put my own needs aside when I should be more assertive.

Other Fi users' mileage may vary. I can only speak for myself and my own convictions.  But yeah, it's a kind of weird combination of being super sure I'm right, and not knowing anything at all.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Thank you @ElliCat and @Barakiel for your responses)
> 
> On the Socionics forum people were saying I seemed Si PoLR...which seemed somewhat accurate; there's something about Socionics Si in particular that just creeps me out and makes me feel very unsettled. Te would be a close second choice though -- I could definitely see it, and being an extroverted function, more opportunities pop up for me to be annoyed by it)
> 
> However, I think part of the reason it annoys me is that I don't really understand it. I mean, I understand it technically but I don't really get how it feels to use it or . . . something) So I want to see if I can figure that out before I make any conclusions on that)


Basically, Te is the fuck you function. :dry:










I kid, I kid. :laughing: Te heavy users have a habit of not taking other people's feelings into account, due to them both having a low feeling function, and it being inward. Personally, the function I don't like is Si, honestly. The past isn't any of my business, nor respecting long traditions or people of authority.


----------



## ElliCat

fair phantom said:


> OOf. I relate to all of this so much.


I wonder how much is influenced by Types 4 and 9 now. XD


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> Oh I'm _very_ confident when it comes to the _rightness_ of my values and morals. Especially when I'm on my own. It's why I'm not easily manipulated.
> 
> I guess the problem is that I'm aware that the world isn't a moral place, and I don't feel right imposing my own values onto others. And I find it too easy to think about situations from other people's perspectives, so sometimes in the heat of the moment I can lose sight of whose perspective has more legitimacy, and because I value not being a selfish arsehat I tend to put my own needs aside when I should be more assertive.
> 
> Other Fi users' mileage may vary. I can only speak for myself and my own convictions.  But yeah, it's a kind of weird combination of being super sure I'm right, and not knowing anything at all.


Oh, ok, so I wasn't entirely wrong with my annoyance of Fi. :dry: Seriously, how are you guys so sure of your own morality.

Ah, so it's the contradictory nature of Fi and Ne that's screwing you over, interesting. I imagine ISFPs have an easier time, since both their outward functions are rather blunt. My problem, personally, is that I value my own opinions above others, yet I know that that's a bad way to be, and I can't be right all the time, and... yeah, contradiction over contradiction. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> Oh I'm _very_ confident when it comes to the _rightness_ of my values and morals. Especially when I'm on my own. It's why I'm not easily manipulated.
> 
> I guess the problem is that I'm aware that the world isn't a moral place, and I don't feel right imposing my own values onto others. And I find it too easy to think about situations from other people's perspectives, so sometimes in the heat of the moment I can lose sight of whose perspective has more legitimacy, and because I value not being a selfish arsehat I tend to put my own needs aside when I should be more assertive.
> 
> Other Fi users' mileage may vary. I can only speak for myself and my own convictions.  But yeah, it's a kind of weird combination of being super sure I'm right, and not knowing anything at all.


Yes I tend to be confident in the areas of values and morals, though even then sometimes Ne will go "Is there something I'm not considering? What are the other perspectives and could they be right?" But after I've thoroughly examined the issue I usually go back to feeling confident...at least confident enough, though some doubt may remain (a sign of Ne being higher than Fi?). I usually find enough confidence to be sure _for myself_, or sure that it is _a justifiable_ stance/action for a person to take.

I sometimes feign more confidence than I have though, because if I don't it seems like people become dismissive towards me.



Barakiel said:


> Oh, ok, so I wasn't entirely wrong with my annoyance of Fi. :dry: Seriously, how are you guys so sure of your own morality.
> 
> Ah, so it's the contradictory nature of Fi and Ne that's screwing you over, interesting. I imagine ISFPs have an easier time, since both their outward functions are rather blunt. My problem, personally, is that I value my own opinions above others, yet I know that that's a bad way to be, and I can't be right all the time, and... yeah, contradiction over contradiction. :laughing:


Probably because we spend much of our time thinking about these issues, delving into all the nuances, imagining scenarios (or at least I do). :wink: And I think the same can be said of Fe too: how is it so certain of its moral judgments? Because society says so? Yeah, like we've never realized later that society upheld something terrible as moral. :dry:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Probably because we spend much of our time thinking about these issues, delving into all the nuances, imagining scenarios (or at least I do). :wink: And I think the same can be said of Fe too: how is it so certain of its moral judgments? Because society says so? Yeah, like we've never realized later that society upheld something terrible as moral. :dry:


Oh, don't get me wrong, as @alittlebear knows, I don't like Fe either. :wink: It's just odd to me, though I have been like that a few times, so sure of myself that I deny any criticism towards it. :laughing:

I'm curious, though, do you have any theological discussions with people? I wonder if Fi types usually stick to one side and don't play devil's advocate. :kitteh:


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> edit: and @fair phantom) As for why I would want to talk to someone who knows me (for instance, my mother) rather than a career counselor, I think it's the following reasons:
> 
> 1. I wouldn't want to go to a career counselor without having some basic idea of what I wanted. Otherwise it's like..."Hello, please find me a career". I mean, I exaggerate, but going to the counselor before figuring things out _rough_ly feels like putting the cart before the horse.
> 
> 2. Speaking to a career counselor makes me feel . . . pressured to make a decision quickly, or to misrepresent myself like I'm in a job interview almost. You know, I could go in to see a career counselor and they could come to the conclusion that I'd be perfectly suited for a job in computer programming...whereas someone who knows me would know that is not the case. My mother knows my genuine strengths and weaknesses, not the things that you can easily express or explain. I find it difficult to succeed in certain situations and I don't know how I would explain that to a career counselor.
> 
> I mean, I know it's what they're trained to do and I probably wanted to benefit that...but I didn't even want to figure out my career, I wanted to figure out my life, and _then_ fit the career into that. I'm not against career counselors, I just thought it was too early in the game to bring them in, like sculpting a nose on a statue before you've decided if you're going to make an elephant or an aardvark.
> 
> I should add, this is all water under the bridge now -- I kinda know what path I should have taken then but it's too late so I need to find another path now which will be a different process -- but I'm using the same brain)


This sort of sounds like Fi to me? Insecure Fi, but that happens. I mean maybe it is either but I_ think _Fe would feel that they would be able to convey the necessary information about themselves. Extroverted functions are generally easier to communicate than introverted functions. Perhaps it merely points to being an introvert.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong, as @alittlebear knows, I don't like Fe either. :wink: It's just odd to me, though I have been like that a few times, so sure of myself that I deny any criticism towards it. :laughing:
> 
> I'm curious, though, do you have any theological discussions with people? I wonder if Fi types usually stick to one side and don't play devil's advocate. :kitteh:


Well thinking functions are also judging functions, so one could ask...how are Te and Ti so sure of what they think is correct?

I love having theological discussions. While I don't really think of it as devil's advocate (you chose that wording on purpose didn't you?), but I do feel the need to bring up alternate viewpoints and logical flaws even if I think I might agree with the other person. I feel like the ideas need to be thoroughly tested.

(unrelated note: I watched the first episode of Fate/Zero today! Definitely intrigued.)


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Well thinking functions are also judging functions, so one could ask...how are Te and Ti so sure of what they think is correct?
> 
> I love having theological discussions. While I don't really think of it as devil's advocate (you chose that wording on purpose didn't you?), but I do feel the need to bring up alternate viewpoints and logical flaws even if I think I might agree with the other person. I feel like the ideas need to be thoroughly tested.
> 
> (unrelated note: I watched the first episode of Fate/Zero today! Definitely intrigued.)


Well, for me personally, I just say what I think, and try to word things in such a way that people are trapped, it's a little game I have. :wink:

Yes, I did choose that wording on purpose, as ENTPs are widely known as that. :laughing: For me personally, I usually play the role of the cynic, it's something I got into when I was younger, and haven't grown out of yet.

Some say the first episode was a heavy info dump, but I loved it. :laughing: I'm curious as to what you'll think as the series goes forward... but question. Sub or dub? :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Well, for me personally, I just say what I think, and try to word things in such a way that people are trapped, it's a little game I have. :wink:
> 
> Yes, I did choose that wording on purpose, as ENTPs are widely known as that. :laughing: For me personally, I usually play the role of the cynic, it's something I got into when I was younger, and haven't grown out of yet.
> 
> Some say the first episode was a heavy info dump, but I loved it. :laughing: I'm curious as to what you'll think as the series goes forward... but question. Sub or dub? :dry:


I think I sometimes do that "trapping" thing, but usually when it is trivial things, or if I am trying to win a debate in class. But things can get emotionally charged when it comes to topics like religion, and I don't like to knowingly provoke emotional reactions from people unless it seems necessary. I just want to consider the issues, and try to arrive at something that seems possible/plausible/true—striving for greater clarity and/or nuance depending on the specific discussion.

I watched the dub with subtitles on (Netflix) because I had some other things I wanted to get done and it is easier to multi-task with dubs. I'll probably be switiching back and forth.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I think I sometimes do that "trapping" thing, but usually when it is trivial things, or if I am trying to win a debate in class. But things can get emotionally charged when it comes to topics like religion, and I don't like to knowingly provoke emotional reactions from people unless it seems necessary. I just want to consider the issues, and try to arrive at something that seems possible/plausible/true—striving for greater clarity and/or nuance depending on the specific discussion.
> 
> I watched the dub with subtitles on (Netflix) because I had some other things I wanted to get done and it is easier to multi-task with dubs. I'll probably be switiching back and forth.


Oh, religion, such a cool topic to dive into. I actually provoke my mother by calling it fiction. :laughing: Though it actually sparks from a grudge I hold to God for supposedly condemning me and yes, I'm still bitter. :dry:

Oh yeah, Netflix has anime. Crap quality compared to Animelab, but hey, comes with the territory. :kitteh: Still, the dub for Fate/Zero is pretty damn brilliant, gotta say. :wink: I'm curious what you'll think of the characters, as they're pretty morally divisive, to be honest.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Oh, religion, such a cool topic to dive into. I actually provoke my mother by calling it fiction. :laughing: Though it actually sparks from a grudge I hold to God for supposedly condemning me and yes, I'm still bitter. :dry:
> 
> Oh yeah, Netflix has anime. Crap quality compared to Animelab, but hey, comes with the territory. :kitteh: Still, the dub for Fate/Zero is pretty damn brilliant, gotta say. :wink: I'm curious what you'll think of the characters, as they're pretty morally divisive, to be honest.


My mother would probably not speak to me for weeks if I did that (if not worse). 

Why has God condemned you? (if you don't want to talk about it you don't have to).

I tend to like morally complicated characters. (My response to your Sandor Clegane gif earlier was "aww I miss him"). I can easily disagree with a character's actions while still caring about them. From what I understand (@Ellicat ?), high Fi morality usually isn't black-and-white jsyk. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> This sort of sounds like Fi to me? Insecure Fi, but that happens. I mean maybe it is either but I_ think _Fe would feel that they would be able to convey the necessary information about themselves. Extroverted functions are generally easier to communicate than introverted functions. Perhaps it merely points to being an introvert.


I was sort-of thinking that as I was typing it. I'm not 100% sure though. 
It's just like (sorry for going on but I want to see if I can clarify), my education wasn't very...clear-cut, I didn't have distinct reasons for doing the things I did...at least that I would want to communicate to a complete stranger. Like...if I was this one friend of mine, I would have had no problem. "I took these classes because I thought that they would help me in my chosen field. I'm a valedictorian because I value success and don't settle for anything but the best. I took these electives because I value teamwork and individual expression." She can say these things and they're true because that's really how she thinks. I don't know what I'd say. I'd have a different picture to offer. "I took these classes because they looked interesting and my friends were taking them and I wanted to feel smart. I aced the higher-level classes and failed the lower-level classes because I'm a mess of contradictions. I completed high school online because I don't even know why, make up a reason that sounds good." Like...I guess that is Fi, kinda...not knowing why, a vague mass of events?

Here's some education-related things I thought were maybe Fe:

~I did great in high school when my friends were in my classes; like, it was a thing we were all doing together, so obviously I was going to keep up. But when I didn't have friends in my classes, I just did badly. It didn't seem like a real thing, it was just people telling me information that I didn't need or want to know. And I couldn't keep up, even though I tried.

~I had sort-of a punishment/reward system with my teachers. I mean, not really, but if I really liked a teacher, I would make an effort to do well in their class, to look engaged when the superintendent or whoever came to look in, all that. If I didn't like a teacher, I would make an effort not to do well in their class, to look bored or fiddle with a cell phone/read under the table if a superintendent came in. Weird thing to do, I know, but I did it.

~College didn't work for me for a myriad of reasons, the three of which I have most clearly identified are:
1. No team feeling like in high school. It was just lots of random people going to random classes, no feeling of class unity, which I really liked in high school
2. As mentioned, the feeling that I was there for no good reason, wasting my life on something that had nothing to do with my life, just randomly jumping through this hoop with no carrying momentum
3. That I literally knew no one. So I was really lonely and depressed and just...what's the point? So I would just not go to classes and stay in my dorm, there was just no . . . like I said, no point.

This is how I usually feel, that I could really do anything if I was doing it with other people...friends for instance...but everything is just extraordinarily difficult and utterly pointless without that. I know that's an ordinary human thing...but I feel like I have it more than other people. I suppose it could be either Fe or Fi; I'm not really sure how to judge that.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> My mother would probably not speak to me for weeks if I did that (if not worse).
> 
> Why has God condemned you? (if you don't want to talk about it you don't have to).
> 
> I tend to like morally complicated characters. (My response to your Sandor Clegane gif earlier was "aww I miss him"). I can easily disagree with a character's actions while still caring about them. From what I understand (@Ellicat ?), high Fi morality usually isn't black-and-white jsyk. :wink:


Just shows how often I do it that she usually laughs it off. She's an ISTJ, BTW. :wink:

Well, a combination of stutter plus me generally not knowing what to do in life. :happy:

I'm kind of the same way, though I liked Jaime more than Sandor, honestly. :laughing: In that case, would you say that high Fe users, @alittlebear being an example (man, I'm calling her out a lot. :tongue: ), would be more morally offended at despicable actions? :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

@Barakiel...I just want to say...God has not condemned you; not permanently at least) Even if you have committed some grievous sin, which all of us have actually, there is _always_ a possibility for repentance, and God loves you and will not turn you away if you turn to Him. He is forgiving; that's kinda His thing  If someone told you that "God has condemned you" they are pretending to know His mind and are basically talking out of their ass. If you have deduced this yourself, I am sorry for whatever led you to that conclusion, but please do not view it as permanent or definite. Where there's life there's hope)

Sorry for throwing the religious bit in there, I just hate to see statements like that, it is not what Christians believe and it is very sad.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Just shows how often I do it that she usually laughs it off. She's an ISTJ, BTW. :wink:
> 
> Well, a combination of stutter plus me generally not knowing what to do in life. :happy:
> 
> I'm kind of the same way, though I liked Jaime more than Sandor, honestly. :laughing: In that case, would you say that high Fe users, @alittlebear being an example (man, I'm calling her out a lot. :tongue: ), would be more morally offended at despicable actions? :happy:


Well that doesn't sound condemned to me, but I am not in your position.

I love Jaime. He is my favourite male character, or maybe Oberyn. He's at least my favourite living male character. (RIP, sweet Prince). 

re: Fe moral judgments. It entirely depends. But in general, it seems the lower the function, the less likely a person is to grasp complexities and nuances. 

Now of course many thinkers usually avoid this through their preferred judging functions, but when they _do_ use their feeling it _can_ be more black-and-white, all-or-nothing thing. See: Hermione and SPEW.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> @Barakiel...I just want to say...God has not condemned you; not permanently at least) Even if you have committed some grievous sin, which all of us have actually, there is _always_ a possibility for repentance, and God loves you and will not turn you away if you turn to Him. He is forgiving; that's kinda His thing  If someone told you that "God has condemned you" they are pretending to know His mind and are basically talking out of their ass. If you have deduced this yourself, I am sorry for whatever led you to that conclusion, but please do not view it as permanent or definite. Where there's life there's hope)
> 
> Sorry for throwing the religious bit in there, I just hate to see statements like that, it is not what Christians believe and it is very sad.


Thanks for the sentiment, really, but I've found that God can't give my life meaning, at least as far as he's willing to tell me, so I'm trying to find it on my own. It's not _working _, but I'm going to try helping people first, usually that's the first stop. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Well that doesn't sound condemned to me, but I am not in your position.
> 
> I love Jaime. He is my favourite male character, or maybe Oberyn. He's at least my favourite living male character. (RIP, sweet Prince).
> 
> re: Fe moral judgments. It entirely depends. But in general, it seems the lower the function, the less likely a person is to grasp complexities and nuances.
> 
> Now of course many thinkers usually avoid this through their preferred judging functions, but when they _do_ use their feeling it _can_ be more black-and-white, all-or-nothing thing. See: Hermione and SPEW.


Oh no, please, your input is greatly appreciated, thank you. :happy:

Yeah, Jaime's probably the most morally changing characters, and that's why I love him, you can see his development. :kitteh:

Interesting, thank you. I was just thinking about how she was appalled at Melisandre.

Oh god, certainly not something to emulate, especially with another example being Light Yagami. :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> I was sort-of thinking that as I was typing it. I'm not 100% sure though.
> It's just like (sorry for going on but I want to see if I can clarify), my education wasn't very...clear-cut, I didn't have distinct reasons for doing the things I did...at least that I would want to communicate to a complete stranger. Like...if I was this one friend of mine, I would have had no problem. "I took these classes because I thought that they would help me in my chosen field. I'm a valedictorian because I value success and don't settle for anything but the best. I took these electives because I value teamwork and individual expression." She can say these things and they're true because that's really how she thinks. I don't know what I'd say. I'd have a different picture to offer. "I took these classes because they looked interesting and my friends were taking them and I wanted to feel smart. I aced the higher-level classes and failed the lower-level classes because I'm a mess of contradictions. I completed high school online because I don't even know why, make up a reason that sounds good." Like...I guess that is Fi, kinda...not knowing why, a vague mass of events?


Yes I think it can be. Hmmm. The "make up a reason that sounds good" seems to be more of an Fe thing, but not necessarily. Fi-users can do that out of insecurity and/or for Te-reasons.



> Here's some education-related things I thought were maybe Fe:
> 
> ~I did great in high school when my friends were in my classes; like, it was a thing we were all doing together, so obviously I was going to keep up. But when I didn't have friends in my classes, I just did badly. It didn't seem like a real thing, it was just people telling me information that I didn't need or want to know. And I couldn't keep up, even though I tried.


That could point to Fe.



> ~I had sort-of a punishment/reward system with my teachers. I mean, not really, but if I really liked a teacher, I would make an effort to do well in their class, to look engaged when the superintendent or whoever came to look in, all that. If I didn't like a teacher, I would make an effort not to do well in their class, to look bored or fiddle with a cell phone/read under the table if a superintendent came in. Weird thing to do, I know, but I did it.


Well I tended to try harder if I liked the teacher. I would not be inclined to do the latter. I don't know. Might be Fe.



> ~College didn't work for me for a myriad of reasons, the three of which I have most clearly identified are:
> 1. No team feeling like in high school. It was just lots of random people going to random classes, no feeling of class unity, which I really liked in high school
> 2. As mentioned, the feeling that I was there for no good reason, wasting my life on something that had nothing to do with my life, just randomly jumping through this hoop with no carrying momentum
> 3. That I literally knew no one. So I was really lonely and depressed and just...what's the point? So I would just not go to classes and stay in my dorm, there was just no . . . like I said, no point.
> 
> This is how I usually feel, that I could really do anything if I was doing it with other people...friends for instance...but everything is just extraordinarily difficult and utterly pointless without that. I know that's an ordinary human thing...but I feel like I have it more than other people. I suppose it could be either Fe or Fi; I'm not really sure how to judge that.


1. Okay this seems very Fe.
2. More Ni than either feeling function imo.
3. Human, not function-related. I struggled when I felt isolated too. My depression acted up. Fi gets lonely too.

Maybe you are an INFJ after all. Or maybe an ENFJ whose Ni is strong enough that it makes you uncomfortable revealing important things to strangers. *Does anyone know if sometimes inferior Se wants an excess of sensation like the two songs thing?* From what I have encountered they can't deal with that but inferior functions can manifest in different ways.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Oh no, please, your input is greatly appreciated, thank you. :happy:
> 
> Yeah, Jaime's probably the most morally changing characters, and that's why I love him, you can see his development. :kitteh:
> 
> Interesting, thank you. I was just thinking about how she was appalled at Melisandre.
> 
> Oh god, certainly not something to emulate, especially with another example being Light Yagami. :dry:


Oh high F will still have their lines in the sand , and taking shades of gray into consideration doesn't mean the feelings won't be _strong_ once a judgment has been arrived at.

I should point out that these feeling judgments aren't necessarily final, not anymore than a thinking judgment is. Mine _usually_ aren't (things like rape and torturing for fun are NEVER going to be okay with me), but I _might_ need someone to point out something I hadn't considered or present a compelling argument to counter my assessment.

Light Yagami is indeed another good example. yikes.

And with that, I think I am going to go sleep because stupid headache. G'night!


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Yes I think it can be. Hmmm. The "make up a reason that sounds good" seems to be more of an Fe thing, but not necessarily. Fi-users can do that out of insecurity and/or for Te-reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> That could point to Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I tended to try harder if I liked the teacher. I would not be inclined to do the latter. I don't know. Might be Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Okay this seems very Fe.
> 2. More Ni than either feeling function imo.
> 3. Human, not function-related. I struggled when I felt isolated too. My depression acted up. Fi gets lonely too.
> 
> Maybe you are an INFJ after all. Or maybe an ENFJ whose Ni is strong enough that it makes you uncomfortable revealing important things to strangers. *Does anyone know if sometimes inferior Se wants an excess of sensation like the two songs thing?* From what I have encountered they can't deal with that but inferior functions can manifest in different ways.


Thanks for your comments)
I'm not feeling inferior Se. I mean...the two songs thing, just listening to music in general, or going out and driving, looking at the sky, sensory stimulation, whatever...it's pretty everyday for me, I don't ever feel like, "Oh no too much world!" I was walking around today and yesterday thinking of myself as ISFP and it didn't fit imo. Not that it's not my type, just that it didn't seem right for me at the time; I'm just not _that_ Se. At least, I think. If it turns out I use Fi ISFP will probably still be the best bet.

I mean, I listen to music louder when I'm upset, for instance...but I think that's normal. I also get really annoyed by little noises, like I get distracted by clocks ticking if I'm trying to go to sleep...but again, that's really normal and the best argument I have for inferior Se, which makes me think that's not what I have.


----------



## Persephone Soul

ISTP. Hah! jk 

You're as confusing as me. I do know, that your examples of how you did in HS... I was the complete opposite actually. I did amazing in classes that I didn't know anyone in. I was a total introvert and paid attention (unless I felt insecure or had a crush). But when my friends were in there, I was a goof, and couldn't stay focused.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I have nothing against you, Bear. I just don't agree with the way you view certain functions, Si especially.


I don't think it's Si. Look at Margaery or Olenna.

My conflict with Ned is Te-Fi or just Fi morals based, I think. Me and mom have similar-ish problems with my step-dad. We often let it go for the sake of others, dad sees it as a betrayal of himself and digs his heels in. 



SugarPlum said:


> What is the "Pottermore" talk. Is it an official test? I feel like I missed out on a movement.... I know I have taken a cpl online tests, and usually get Ravenclaw, which is weird, considering T is inferior (most likely). Is there some kind of link?


Yes, official made by Rowling herself.



fair phantom said:


> https://www.pottermore.com/en-us/ (you have to go through a few things to get to the quiz)
> 
> You can get all of that test's questions here, but it lacks the cool images, so I suggest doing it second.
> 
> HelloQuizzy.com: The Pottermore Sorting Hat (All Questions) Test


Your result for The Pottermore Sorting Hat (All Questions) Test ...
Ravenclaw
12 Ravenclaw, 6 Hufflepuff, 11 Slytherin and 8 Gryffindor!
“Or yet in wise old Ravenclaw, if you've a ready mind, Where those of wit and learning, Will always find their kind.” 

This isn't helpful. Almost Slytherin again.



fair phantom said:


> ETA: do most people watch it for primarily intellectual reasons or...? I mean I am fascinated by the deconstruction and power dynamics as well, but if I didn't also care about the characters I don't know that I would have watched this long....


Great female characters and lots of intrigue and backstabbing. <- my reasons. Additionally I am unbearably curious about magical and mystical parts of the setting.



Curiphant said:


> Question (obviously): How much should one take stock into descriptions? For example, if the functions fit right apparently but the descriptions are off? The functions seem to work but the overall "type" doesn't? I feel like I know the answer but it'd be nice to her it.


Type descriptions? I ceased reading those months ago. Once I got into functions they started looking like a bunch of generalized traits.



hoopla said:


> I think a lot of the descriptions of ESFP are stereotypical. Makes them sound like always on the go, wreckless, and a party animal. I don't think that's the case.


Me and my INFP bff: "Heeey, imagine doing this? Woah. Wouldn't it be awesome? Yeaaah... OK, moving on." Me talking to one of ESFPs in the same way "Imagine doing this thing!.. Wait what? "Let's do it!"? No, no stop. It was rethhrical. I don't actually want to do anything at all ever. Let's move on onto the new topic... *gets dragged into doing something* Nooo, it was just an idea!"



fair phantom said:


> Maybe you are an INFJ after all. Or maybe an ENFJ whose Ni is strong enough that it makes you uncomfortable revealing important things to strangers. *Does anyone know if sometimes inferior Se wants an excess of sensation like the two songs thing?* From what I have encountered they can't deal with that but inferior functions can manifest in different ways.


Does it work for you? I like mashups but turning on 2 song together just like that doesn't work. Even when I think they'll work together as mashup.


----------



## Persephone Soul

@Oswin

Fi: http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/3065-introverted-feeling.html
Fe: http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/5996-extraverted-feeling.html


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Does it work for you? I like mashups but turning on 2 song together just like that doesn't work. Even when I think they'll work together as mashup.


It works for me. I don't like it in a mash-up way, like, the songs don't have to "mash" (though mash-ups are awesome), it's more for the excitement and added interest of having two songs at once. Like, one song by itself is . . . maybe a little boring, if I've heard it a lot, but put with another song...it's 50x more exciting) They're having a party) 
This is a weird thing of mine though) I'm not sure we should use it to do cognition) Considering I don't know anyone else who likes that) It's just...fun to me, but it's difficult to describe and I can see how it would seem really confusing if you weren't processing it the same way I am. I've occasionally done 3 songs, when I found 2 songs too tame, but 4 songs is always just a convoluted mess)

On the point though...I don't know, I'll push myself in stupid, lame ways on sensory things. Like drinking coffee or tea blacker than blackest black. Taking shots of vinegar (it's unpleasant, but supposedly good for weight loss). Not wearing a lot of clothes in very cold weather, or taking cold showers. Not really for any particular reason, just...fun, idk.

Times I've been really upset...I guess I've gone out to crowded bars (which is not typical of me) and gotten drunk/drunk-ish. And just like...struck up conversations, gone out and mingled the way I wish I would in ordinary life) But it's not like I'll _never_ drink too much at other times. I'll make impulse buys under stress, too, like designer clothes or whatnot. I think it's more Fe-based (if I use Fe) than Se (I want people to think I'm cool with my cool thing).

Nothing super risky though. I'm never really 'living on the edge' in any sense. So I think my Se's fairly under control?

Anyways, here's some added Se-information)


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> @Oswin
> 
> Fi: http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/3065-introverted-feeling.html
> Fe: http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/5996-extraverted-feeling.html


These are going to take a while to read but thanks for linking) They look good, and ...thorough)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> These are going to take a while to read but thanks for linking) They look good, and ...thorough)


They were actually! super easy to understand and the descriptions only take a couple minutes to get through. The language flows easy. I think you will get a good understanding after you read these! The best I have read (personally) thus far.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> Just as you feel my response was not justified, I feel your response is not justified. If you feel this is something you can't work past, then I have no problem excusing myself from this thread.


That's not what I want, and you know that. I just would appreciate it if you could agree to be a bit less confrontational. If you're upset with someone, please do not address them in an upsetting way. I'm not the only person that you've made a taut remark to. 

I like to think we're all friends here. I just want us to act like it. No one is here out to hurt anyone. We can speak in kind ways. If you think you can't agree to that then I suppose you can leave the thread, but I'm not here to make anyone leave the thread... and I do feel that you are quite capable enough of what I'm requesting.

I'll stop making jokes that could be seen as typist, and if I have anything to say that might be biased I will check myself. But I would ask politeness in return.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I like many ASOIF/GOT characters and love several. :/
> 
> though in some cases I have to ignore certain show scenes and sometimes I feel differently about book and show versions of the character.
> 
> ETA: do most people watch it for primarily intellectual reasons or...? I mean I am fascinated by the deconstruction and power dynamics as well, but if I didn't also care about the characters I don't know that I would have watched this long....


I love it because I love it? I mean I read it, not watch it, but it's just fascinating to me. I don't like many of the characters, but just... I don't know. Maybe it's an intellectual reason, but overtly I just... enjoy it, the plots, the story, the world, and even the characters I dislike I enjoy watching the progression of.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> They were actually! super easy to understand and the descriptions only take a couple minutes to get through. The language flows easy. I think you will get a good understanding after you read these! The best I have read (personally) thus far.


Ok, yeah, they seem good) It's just a lot to read on the computer)
I'll print them off tomorrow so I can look at them more closely)
Thanks again)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Ok, just saying, if Ned really wanted to be malicious, he could have not told Cersei at all, and, I dunno, actually survived? But no, he foolishly warned her about it and thought she'd play by the same rules. I get what you're saying about Tommen and Myrcella, but think about it this way, she's still a Lannister, with coffers of money and wealth. Presumably, she would be able to live at Casterly Rock with her children out of harm's way. I don't particularly like high Fi users, myself, because they don't value the things that I do, but nevertheless, I admire them for it all the same.


I don't think Ned was malicious, but I still think he was a bit thoughtless of how he would have impacted the then-Royal Family. I personally think he let his dislike of Cersei get in the way of both his reason and his heart. He forgot what would be best for the most people, and he forgot about the impact his decisions would have on Cersei's family. 

I also stand by my earlier thought that Cersei and her children would be forced to live an impoverished life in hiding. If they could just be Lannisters and flee to Casterly Rock, that would be fine. I wouldn't be as upset with Ned. But I really don't think that is the case.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Absolutely. Good luck, and gnite *to all*. Zzz


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I don't think Ned was malicious, but I still think he was a bit thoughtless of how he would have impacted the then-Royal Family. I personally think he let his dislike of Cersei get in the way of both his reason and his heart. He forgot what would be best for the most people, and he forgot about the impact his decisions would have on Cersei's family.
> 
> I also stand by my earlier thought that Cersei and her children would be forced to live an impoverished life in hiding. If they could just be Lannisters and flee to Casterly Rock, that would be fine. I wouldn't be as upset with Ned. But I really don't think that is the case.


To me, Ned was just following what he believed to be right, and was actually considerate in warning Cersei. That's just the way Fi types usually are, just following what they believe. Out of curiosity, why do you think they would be forced into poverty? Considering she's Tywin's heir in all but gender, that seems like a radical conclusion. :happy:

Ned's a good guy, probably the most protagonist-like out of all the characters. :wink:


----------



## fair phantom

hiiii I couldn't sleep. -_-

thank you @Greyhart and @alittlebear for responding to my question...though neither of you seem to completely lack characters that you care about. I'm of the same mind about the great female characters (though I also love the great male ones) and the great plot/world. 

I think it is best that I not get back into the Ned thing, at least for now.

@Oswin yeah I really struggle to see you as Se inferior. I can't see Ni inferior either so I think you are either ISFP or ENFJ. Still more inclined towards ISFP, but I have some doubts now.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> To me, Ned was just following what he believed to be right, and was actually considerate in warning Cersei. That's just the way Fi types usually are, just following what they believe. Out of curiosity, why do you think they would be forced into poverty? Considering she's Tywin's heir in all but gender, that seems like a radical conclusion. :happy:
> 
> Ned's a good guy, probably the most protagonist-like out of all the characters. :wink:


Once I was discussing this with a friend and they said that it's all about if you should do the honourable thing i.e. Ned does the honourable thing and damages his family, whereas the king slayer does the unhonourable thing and saved thousands of lives.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> To me, Ned was just following what he believed to be right, and was actually considerate in warning Cersei. That's just the way Fi types usually are, just following what they believe. Out of curiosity, why do you think they would be forced into poverty? Considering she's Tywin's heir in all but gender, that seems like a radical conclusion. :happy:
> 
> Ned's a good guy, probably the most protagonist-like out of all the characters. :wink:


I think she would be forced into poverty for a couple of reasons. I'll try to explain. 

- Cersei committed a crime against the realm with her infidelity. I imagine this is punishable by law - punishable by death. She would have to flee the realm and go into hiding to protect herself and her children from death. 

- This established, I also don't think that she would be able to get aid from the Lannisters. Perhaps her father would find a way to send her money, but given what we know of him I imagine he would first disown his children and perhaps send after their heads himself. 

- Family Rejection + Death Sentence = PROFIT! More like a terrible life for not only her, but also her children, two which I strongly think are completely innocent and undeserving of these misfortunes. 

Regarding Ned's morality.. The biggest thing is I have no idea how he believed that was the right thing to do. Why did he continue as he did? For truth? Justice? A big part of it is, I don't understand justice and I don't agree with the exposure of Truth at the expense of another person (let alone a whole realm). People come first. I feel as if Ned forgot that. Honestly it feels more like vengeance than anything, and while I think that vengeance is understandable given how she and Jaime intended to kill his son, I do wish he had thought outside his situation to how his usurping them would impact the realm and his family.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom We can stop discussing Ned now, since it's really not too important and if you're feeling tugged by the conversation it probably would be best to discontinue it. 

I was going to suggest we talk about Daenerys but that probably wouldn't be much better. 

What do you think of Margaery?


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=228218" target="_blank">fair phantom</a></i></span> We can stop discussing Ned now, since it's really not too important and if you're feeling tugged by the conversation it probably would be best to discontinue it.
> 
> I was going to suggest we talk about Daenerys but that probably wouldn't be much better.
> 
> What do you think of Margaery?


Well I did love Margaery, and maybe I still do, but some of that love has been harmed by the current season. I still like her but...

I was really repulsed by her behavior in this scene (starting around 1:06)







* *




I mean her and Tommen together was icky enough, but to throw it in his mother's face while smiling a disgusting fake smile and being all queen bee? Not cool. She reminded me a lot of evil ex stepmother. She would smile the same smile while tearing down other people's self esteem (I was of course her favourite target). I hate that kind of behavior. If you are going to be mean, be honest about it.




So this scene put her on notice. If I ignore it I still lover her. It isn't like she'd be the only one who has had an out of character scene this season. Either way I still care about what happens to her.

ETA: wrt Ned. I mostly don't want to say something I'll regret—or say something in a way I'll regret because I'm tired.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Once I was discussing this with a friend and they said that it's all about if you should do the honourable thing i.e. Ned does the honourable thing and damages his family, whereas the king slayer does the unhonourable thing and saved thousands of lives.


Well, needless, I admire him for trying to do the plainly moral thing, even if it caused his death. Sure, it backfired immensely, but I appreciate the sentiment. Regarding Jaime, though, Ned was definitely too hasty in judging him simply by his actions. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I think she would be forced into poverty for a couple of reasons. I'll try to explain.
> 
> - Cersei committed a crime against the realm with her infidelity. I imagine this is punishable by law - punishable by death. She would have to flee the realm and go into hiding to protect herself and her children from death.
> 
> - This established, I also don't think that she would be able to get aid from the Lannisters. Perhaps her father would find a way to send her money, but given what we know of him I imagine he would first disown his children and perhaps send after their heads himself.
> 
> - Family Rejection + Death Sentence = PROFIT! More like a terrible life for not only her, but also her children, two which I strongly think are completely innocent and undeserving of these misfortunes.
> 
> Regarding Ned's morality.. The biggest thing is I have no idea how he believed that was the right thing to do. Why did he continue as he did? For truth? Justice? A big part of it is, I don't understand justice and I don't agree with the exposure of Truth at the expense of another person (let alone a whole realm). People come first. I feel as if Ned forgot that. Honestly it feels more like vengeance than anything, and while I think that vengeance is understandable given how she and Jaime intended to kill his son, I do wish he had thought outside his situation to how his usurping them would impact the realm and his family.


Ah yes, I see where you're coming from. Still, I think Tywin, political mastermind as he is, would be able to at least broker a truce with the outlying countries like Dorn.  And, to be fair, before the High Sparrow appeared, no one was ever punished by law, not really. :laughing:

Nah, it's not vengeance, you're just looking at conceptual morality from an external viewpoint. It's hard to see how Fi thinks when you judge it purely based on the possible results, it's all in the intention. It's similar to how the conflict with Robert about assassinating Daenerys was, Ned disagreed with the Council because he felt it was wrong, simple as that. And if I remember correctly, no one knew that Jaime tried to kill Bran. Ironically enough, it would seem that Ned agreed with you in the end, as far as his family went, as he tried to keep Arya safe even when he was about to be executed. :happy:


----------



## orbit

Why are people so relatable? 8P 

I don't worry about my ethics too much because to me, I won't know how to react until I know my mood, other people's mood, and the exact situation? The details matter

I don't mind hupothetical moral questions though since I ask them myself 

Isn't Jon Snow mini-Ned?


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Why are people so relatable? 8P
> 
> I don't worry about my ethics too much because to me, I won't know how to react until I know my mood, other people's mood, and the exact situation? The details matter
> 
> I don't mind hupothetical moral questions though since I ask them myself
> 
> Isn't Jon Snow mini-Ned?


Cause we're awesome. At least, I am. :kitteh:

And yeah, Jon Snow is definitely mini-Ned, even with a beheading moment. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

I think papa Lannister would've protected Cersei and kids IF Jaime would've sided with her. He values his son too much to let him take a fall too.

My INFP bff hates Margaery and liked papa Lannister :| Tyrion is her favorite, though.


----------



## Greyhart

Found scribbles of the game I used to play. I started with a "thing" and then thought about thing that would cancel first thing, and then other thing that would cancel second thing and so on. So the scribble I've found went like this

Love<Hate<Jaws<Liopleurodon<laser from satellite from orbit<Decepticon<nerd<maniac with a saw<Facehugger<human with a gun<Xenomorph<human with a bigger gun<action hero with BFG<trigonometry calculus<pyro<spy<t-rex<meteorite(drawn in cool shades)<Chuck Norris< Darth Vader<Vader's son<Hoth (planet)<Han Solo<naked Leia<Jabba Hutt<Jabba's mom<Santa Barbara TV marathon<Naruto<Hentai

:| Things you do when you have no access to the computer.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That's not what I want, and you know that. I just would appreciate it if you could agree to be a bit less confrontational. If you're upset with someone, please do not address them in an upsetting way. I'm not the only person that you've made a taut remark to.
> 
> I like to think we're all friends here. I just want us to act like it. No one is here out to hurt anyone. We can speak in kind ways. If you think you can't agree to that then I suppose you can leave the thread, but I'm not here to make anyone leave the thread... and I do feel that you are quite capable enough of what I'm requesting.
> 
> I'll stop making jokes that could be seen as typist, and if I have anything to say that might be biased I will check myself. But I would ask politeness in return.


This is the problem right here, your belief that I was upset with you and intentionally responded in a way meant to hurt you, meant to be unkind. What's more, your belief that I had something against you all along and got sick of you. Nowhere did I say you were typist, much less morally deficient and whatever else you've decided to take from my words. I'd rather not participate in this thread knowing you have these preconceptions about me. Whatever the case, I'm sure the thread would benefit from my absence.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Well, needless, I admire him for trying to do the plainly moral thing, even if it caused his death. Sure, it backfired immensely, but I appreciate the sentiment. Regarding Jaime, though, Ned was definitely too hasty in judging him simply by his actions. :happy:


I agree, I liked him following what he thought was right, but didnt like that he dragged his family into it too. Yeah Jaime may be a bit of a rubbish person but did the right thing for a lot of people.


----------



## Tad Cooper

shinynotshiny said:


> This is the problem right here, your belief that I was upset with you and intentionally responded in a way meant to hurt you, meant to be unkind. What's more, your belief that I had something against you all along and got sick of you. Nowhere did I say you were typist, much less morally deficient and whatever else you've decided to take from my words. I'd rather not participate in this thread knowing you have these preconceptions about me. Whatever the case, I'm sure the thread would benefit from my absence.


I think it's all a big misunderstanding so maybe all just say sorry and move on? ( @alittlebear too)


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Found scribbles of the game I used to play. I started with a "thing" and then thought about thing that would cancel first thing, and then other thing that would cancel second thing and so on. So the scribble I've found went like this
> 
> Love<Hate<Jaws<Liopleurodon<laser from satellite from orbit<Decepticon<nerd<maniac with a saw<Facehugger<human with a gun<Xenomorph<human with a bigger gun<action hero with BFG<trigonometry calculus<pyro<spy<t-rex<meteorite(drawn in cool shades)<Chuck Norris< Darth Vader<Vader's son<Hott (planet)<Han Solo<naked Leia<Jabba Hutt<Jabba's mom<Santa Barbara TV marathon<Naruto<Hentai
> 
> :| Things you do when you have no access to the computer.


Did you forget Luke's name
naked Leia omg


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> This is the problem right here, your belief that I was upset with you and intentionally responded in a way meant to hurt you, meant to be unkind. What's more, your belief that I had something against you all along and got sick of you. Nowhere did I say you were typist, much less morally deficient and whatever else you've decided to take from my words. I'd rather not participate in this thread knowing you have these preconceptions about me. Whatever the case, I'm sure the thread would benefit from my absence.


The one issue I have is that @_Barakiel_ has made comments about disliking Fi and Fe and you haven't said a word. I personally see neither as being an issue because everyone has preferences and it's not causing anyone harm (I mean, it's MBTI, it's not it's the end of the world if someone says they prefer one function to another - they're all just theory made up by some random people and don't define humans in their entirety). This is all just theoretical discussion and it would probably be more constructive, if you feel badly about something, to provide contradictory information to claims you don't like so people can learn, rather than feeling attacked. I don't want you to think I'm having a go at you, because I'm not (you'll just have to take my word for it if you feel otherwise). I'm just trying to explain what I think went wrong with the previous misunderstanding.
(Sorry for using you as an example, @_Barakiel_ feel free to ask me to remove this! As I said before, everything you and @_alittlebear_ have said seems perfectly reasonable to me.)

As @tine said, let's just move on.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> *Did you forget Luke's name*
> naked Leia omg


My scribble has a stick figure drawing with a word "Son" on his chest and that's it.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> My scribble has a stick figure drawing with a word "Son" on his chest and that's it.


But Leia and Han Solo have labels?


----------



## Greyhart

What did I start. I just meant to poke fun at Ned for a bit.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> @alittlebeart @fair phantom I didn't realize in that scene she was rude towards Cersei? I bit shrewd but not very inappropriate?


What got me was what she said to her ladies as Cersei walked up... He's a child. Don't discuss the things he said and make fun of his enthusiasm. I don't know. I excused it and figured it was within her social rights as a new wife to speak of her wedding night with her ladies, but it still rubbed me the wrong way. 

Regarding her rudeness towards Cersei, I'll have to watch the video again... but I think she's often rude to Cersei. If not openly, definitely everywhere behind her back. I'll watch the scene and see if I can point anything out.

Edit: Okay, I rewatched the scene. Margaery was very rude to Cersei... on a few levels. I mean, even just starting with the wine comment. "It's a bit early in the day for us." Suggesting that Cersei is an alcoholic. Which... I mean, is kind of true, but that's very inappropriate to suggest so openly, before her giggly ladies. 

And her remarks about Tommen? Don't even. It's one thing to discuss her honeymoon night with her ladies, quite another thing to make suggestive remarks to her teen consort's mother. On even just a maternal level, what she said to the mother of a 14 year old about her intimate experiences wth him were very inaprioriate. It's like when Chris Trager was dating Jerry's daughter and kept telling Jerry all about stuff he didn't want to hear about... Only Margaery wasn't oblivious to the rudeness she was giving. She knew exactly what she was doing. It was crude but also insensitive. Heartwrenching. But she did it anyway. 

I mean, I love her, but she's no longer the bright heroine I think we first met.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> What got me was what she said to her ladies as Cersei walked up... He's a child. Don't discuss the things he said and make fun of his enthusiasm. I don't know. I excused it and figured it was within her social rights as a new wife to speak of her wedding night with her ladies, but it still rubbed me the wrong way.
> 
> Regarding her rudeness towards Cersei, I'll have to watch the video again... *but I think she's often rude to Cersei*. If not openly, definitely everywhere behind her back. I'll watch the scene and see if I can point anything out.


She is but they both hate each other. @fair phantom said _"I was really repulsed by her behavior in this scene (starting around 1:06)"_ to me it doesn't seem different from the normal way they dis at each other.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> She is but they both hate each other. @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=228218" target="_blank">fair phantom</a></i></span> said _"I was really repulsed by her behavior in this scene (starting around 1:06)"_ to me it doesn't seem different from the normal way they dis at each other.


True. But what got me was the way she talked about Tommen more than anything.

Edit: Not gonna link the wedding night scene but obviously that made me a bit uncomfortable. I guess it was appropriate given their ages on the show and their duty, but... Ehhhh. 

This also got to me. 






She was clearly manipulating him. She's using her own agenda. Making him feel as if she's speaking on the same level as him, even though she's clearly just leaning down from her bigger understanding... lying to him. He needs a good queen, and I think Margaery could have been that, but now she's just emotionally manipulating him to do her bidding... which might help get her and Loras free, but I wonder how much it will help Westeros with her and Cersei warring.


----------



## Immolate

@alittlebear It's alright, Bear. I do hope you know I think you're sweet and hilarious, and I'm sorry I have such a blunt demeanor.

@Greyhart Kindred spirits


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny Do you want to make me hug you? Don't make me hug you. 

I'm sorry for being such a butthead yesterday. (I keep using that word. I need to find a new word that isn't as lightly grotesque, but I think it still fits at least here.)

Your demeanor is yours. I'll work to be more understanding of it.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> True. But what got me was the way she talked about Tommen more than anything.
> 
> Edit: Not gonna link the wedding night scene but obviously that made me a bit uncomfortable. I guess it was appropriate given their ages on the show and their duty, but... Ehhhh.


Yeah, age thing is a bit ehhhhhhh.



> She was clearly manipulating him. She's using her own agenda. Making him feel as if she's speaking on the same level as him, even though she's clearly just leaning down from her bigger understanding... lying to him. He needs a good queen, and I think Margaery could have been that, but now she's just emotionally manipulating him to do her bidding... which might help get her and Loras free, but I wonder how much it will help Westeros with her and Cersei warring.


This didn't grate me either since it's what I excepted out of her as a queen from the beginning. Manipulating her husband, whether it's Jeffrey or Tommen. She wants to be The Queen, after all.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Yeah, age thing is a bit ehhhhhhh.
> 
> 
> This didn't grate me either since it's what I excepted out of her as a queen from the beginning. Manipulating her husband, whether it's Jeffrey or Tommen. She wants to be The Queen, after all.


But... I mean, she is Queen now. What more does she want? Part of my concern is I don't see what her motive is, and I fear it will be a vicious one (like: destroy the Lannisters or something like that as opposed to... being a good ruler of the kingdom, being a good Queen). 

I expected her to manipulate Joffrey. Of course. And I admired it, because while she was doing some things I thought despicable (mainly the comments she made about Renly... oh my gosh, I wanted to tear her out of the show for those remarks), I think she was doing the best thing anyone could do short of... well, uh, killing him. At the time, he was going to be king. He needed to have some weaseling him into kindness and protection of the realm. I felt that Margaery was doing just this. And part of my love for her was appreciation of this. 

Of course I knew the marriage between her and Tommen would be unequal... but really I forgot it would happen so soon. I thought they would wait until he was at least as old as Joffrey... It took me as a little shock that they actually _married_, and that she didn't make the same courtesies as Tyrion did for Sansa. (Which yeah the situation was different... but the age difference is kind of the same...) 

I also wish she would be more honest with Tommen. He is the king right now. Goodness knows that won't last long, but while it does last he needs to be educated, he needs to understand the situation, he needs to be given a good head on his shoulders, and wise guides... Right now he doesn't have any of that, and I don't think that Margaery's emotional manipulation is helping the situation.


----------



## Greyhart

Hmm, I didn't read the books but just based on TV show she wants power and fame that comes with queen status. I took her care for peasants as a part of building appealing ruler image that she wants to have.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Hmm, I didn't read the books but just based on TV show she wants power and fame that comes with queen status. I took her care for peasants as a part of building appealing ruler image that she wants to have.


Yeh...

I mean, I remember when I first saw her the greater part of me knew she was just being manipulative to get what she wants, especially after the "I want to be THE queen" scene. But I still held out hope that she was kind... because, I mean, why even give Sansa the time of day? She was probably the lowest of the low at King's Landing. Margaery had to need to reach out to her... and yet she did. Same with Brienne (I saw that scene recently and was pleasantly surprised by her genuine kindness towards her.) 

In the books, she's... well, for one, I think she's sixteen at the start. GRRM said that show Margaery uncannily reflected how book Margaery would be like in a few years... but that's not how she is in the books. For the second and third books, if I remember correctly, she just came off as a sweet, harmless girl who meant well. 

You start to doubt that, especially from Cersei's eyes in the fourth book... and she does get a little sassy... But she's not out there seemingly scheming like in the show. 

I think I like both Margaerys, but they're very different I think.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Stressful? Mm, nah. Digging for my own feelings is stressful-er. I "check" fast and make quick decisions, don't really ruminate on it. Which results in fall outs sometimes. It's more of conscious process, though. In a same way as you, I don't actually think about my morality until confronted with a situation. I just look outside instead of inside when it happens.


That reminds me of my ExTP friend, actually. When she was down, I tried to get her to work out why through looking at and examining her own feelings 
(because that tends to work for me, so long as it's not a bought of depression/anxiety), but she got very uncomfortable with it and said she wasn't going to try it again. What do you mean by fall outs? 

Ah, so when confronted with a morally ambiguous topic, you might look to see how others are reacting to work out how it's viewed generally and draw from that whether it's good or bad?

(Also, I really feel like I should be up to date on GoT. So much discussion....)


----------



## Greyhart

@alittlebear for Sansa and Brienne treatment. Margaery doesn't have to be completely white-or-black. She can be after power and status but also care about individuals. I'd think she felt pity for other girls, saw them as needing her help or related to their circumstances. Maybe she just like receiving gratitude.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> That reminds me of my ExTP friend, actually. When she was down, I tried to get her to work out why through looking at and examining her own feelings
> (because that tends to work for me, so long as it's not a bought of depression/anxiety), but she got very uncomfortable with it and said she wasn't going to try it again.


Ahaha, yes. Therapy sessions. I realized this isn't going anywhere because my therapist kept asking "Yes, but what do YOU feel about it?". Doc, I don't care about what I feel, I just want to undepress and stop getting panic attacks and those questions of yours are giving me anxiety instead. The worst was when she tried some kind of visual... testing thing where she showed whole lot of photos of people and told me to pick the ones that I like and the ones I don't. Holy shit that was stressful. People's faces do nothing to me emotion wise?? Do I pick just based on "would and wouldn't bang"? But that would appear shallow and there are babies there! Do I pick smiley faces over frowny ones? Won't be it kind of obvious that I am just sorting them?? So I started to think what could this test mean, what would the results tell, what kind of results my therapist would expect, what kind of results I _should_ provide. Disaster.



> What do you mean by fall outs?


*confronted with something ethics related* *come to a fast judgement* *deliver* "OH MY GOD, EVA, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU" *proceed being lectured* *should've thought about that myself* *get sad*



> Ah, so when confronted with a morally ambiguous topic, you might look to see how others are reacting to work out how it's viewed generally and draw from that whether it's good or bad?


That's correct. Also possibly imagine some people that could be in situation that involves that topic and try to imagine what would they go through.



> (Also, I really feel like I should be up to date on GoT. So much discussion....)


You are probably irredeemably spoiled at this point. :tongue: Episode 9 of this season was epic, though. Jon Snow's part at least.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Do I have to watch the ice fight scene?  I hate fight scenes. Sigh. Just tell me who wins you know. 

I wonder what will happen with Jon the next episode.

Oh and @Greyhart I suppose you're right. If Cersei can love and be an outright villain, then Margaery can have ulterior motives and still show genuine kindness.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Do I have to watch the ice fight scene?  I hate fight scenes. Sigh. Just tell me who wins you know.



* *




DEM ICE ZOMBIES. I mean wow, instant zombification using some ice storm? Westeros is so doomed without dragons.


 



> I wonder what will happen with Jon the next episode.


I'm constantly tempted to read ASOIAF wiki. And I did about some stuff. Mainly world, magic, gods, creatures & such. White walkers are apparently Others in the books.



> Oh and @Greyhart I suppose you're right. If Cersei can love and be an outright villain, then Margaery can have ulterior motives and still show genuine kindness.












That's what I like about the series too. Most characters have complexity to them. To quote the Shrek, they have layers, like onions.


----------



## Greyhart

I love this kind of posts My Too Personal Blog


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I love this kind of posts My Too Personal Blog


What did I just

And... Yeah, stay away from Wiki. I'm not sure if the thing with Jon happened, but... Given people's reactions to the last episode, I don't think it did. You'll get a nice finale that echoes what book readers have had to feel after ADWD. 

Some things were messed up in the series. Not bad, imo, and like it's hard to say exactly given that I actually don't watch the show, but 
* *




Take the Margaery and Cersei thing. Cersei is supposed to go into prison first, then Margaery. 

And that whole thing, how Loras is so important... Loras is pretty tiny in the books, imo. He was never engaged to Sansa and he sure as heck wasn't engaged to Cersei. (Or if he was, I don't remember it? I am rereading the books but) 

And uhh. Shireen was definitely not burned. There were too many way too obvious hints that Mel wanted to burn her, but RN in the books Stannis is at freaking Winterfell, and when he left for Winterfell he said to put Shireen on the throne at all costs if he's lost in battle. Gah. Getting the feels. (And by feels I mean a teeny tear.) 

Mm, and Dany doesn't meet Tyrion, but that's pretty common knowledge. 

Also Tyrion meets Penny. And Penny is wonderful. Oh, Penny. I wish Penny was in the show :/


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> What did I just


Illuminati humor is my fav.











> And... Yeah, stay away from Wiki. I'm not sure if the thing with Jon happened, but... Given people's reactions to the last episode, I don't think it did. You'll get a nice finale that echoes what book readers have had to feel after ADWD.
> 
> Some things were messed up in the series. Not bad, imo, and like it's hard to say exactly given that I actually don't watch the show, but
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take the Margaery and Cersei thing. Cersei is supposed to go into prison first, then Margaery.
> 
> And that whole thing, how Loras is so important... Loras is pretty tiny in the books, imo. He was never engaged to Sansa and he sure as heck wasn't engaged to Cersei. (Or if he was, I don't remember it? I am rereading the books but)
> 
> And uhh. Shireen was definitely not burned. There were too many way too obvious hints that Mel wanted to burn her, but RN in the books Stannis is at freaking Winterfell, and when he left for Winterfell he said to put Shireen on the throne at all costs if he's lost in battle. Gah. Getting the feels. (And by feels I mean a teeny tear.)
> 
> Mm, and Dany doesn't meet Tyrion, but that's pretty common knowledge.
> 
> Also Tyrion meets Penny. And Penny is wonderful. Oh, Penny. I wish Penny was in the show :/


Wow, it REALLY goes different in the books. I'm sad about books Dany and Tyrion.  It's like my fav part of 5th season. After Varys and Tyrion bantering in the wagon "I can't remember when I last saw a face that wasn't yours." "It's a perfectly fine face. :\"

OK, who wants to bet that if by the point when TV show catches up with the books GRR doesn't release next one, the show will just roll with it and finish the Game by itself?


----------



## Tad Cooper

@Greyhart - I also cant do therapy at all. Do you find it hard to talk to people about stuff? I always end up directing attention away from me and its kind of going against the point of therapy. Have you managed to figure out stuff about yourself and if so how?


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> @Greyhart - I also cant do therapy at all. (1)Do you find it hard to talk to people about stuff? (2)I always end up directing attention away from me and its kind of going against the point of therapy. (3)Have you managed to figure out stuff about yourself and if so how?


(1) Mm, I could explain my depression. Like this for example. I can explain what kind of train of through goes through me when I experience social anxiety bout. I can describe physical effects of panic attack. It's tedious and draining for me but I can. But what I _needed_ from my therapist was just to explain me what to do in these situations. What do I need to focus on, how to counteract this etc. Just talking about feelings, my relationships with people, my childhood does nothing to lessen symptoms I experience. Especially talking about past. I don't have traumas I need to work through. I told it to my therapist. I fell into depression and anxiety because of *a lot* of external factors during mid school - horrid health, horrid family situation with an added pressure of school.

BUT aside from therapy, now that I am relatively OK I just don't have feelings to discuss. :\ Not "personal" anyway. If I am feeling something I am probably already talking about it anyway. And it's probably something related to my interests rather than any inner turmoils. I can say "I am lonely." it means "Ring now I crave for social contact." but there isn't much depth to it. 

For the point (2) yeah, I do that IRL now too. During therapy I just let therapist ask questions and I then would just recount my memories. "What is your relationship with family?" - I just start describing my parents, grandma, situations that happened, their relationship to each other. I don't know how to answer that question still tbh. It's fine? Family is family? Grandma is kind of a proverbial dick? I don't have any deep held grudges against them, I always viewed parents as just people and people aren't perfect. Basically I would just recount situations. So therapist would go "No, but what do YOU feel?" I'd get lost and start retelling another situation and how I and others behaved there. This sort of reaction is still true for me even now. My personal feelings towards something are not apparent or important to me, they require lots of self-digging and makes me want to bolt out of conversation. 

(3) Out of depression and anxiety? Depression - not sure... Today Iv'e found my drawings from about 5 years ago and realized that I was getting better back then already. Which is few years earlier than I thought. Maybe just because the pressure from health, family and school disappeared and I slowly got better? It happened gradually, I'm not sure. Just at one point I realized I *want* to live.

For the SAD... Well, first thing was actually getting diagnosed with depression and SAD. Before that I thought I am schizophrenic or maybe just some empty sociopath. 

After that I tried therapy but you see how that went. So I decided to figure it out myself. Just knowing that what I feel is just a disorder not actually "me" helped by an enormous amount. I've read on the Internet that in order to break out of it you basically have to push yourself against what it "wants". 

So I went all type 3 behavior, hah. Did my research about fashion trends, got flashy makeup and clothes, got "edgy" (very edgy for where I live) haircut. Started making myself look in a way that I knew would attract attention and make people judge me based on my appearance. Which is what I was afraid of "What will people think of me?!". I also trained myself to have a specific gait and mannerism when outisde.










Forced myself to talk to strangers, cashiers, call unknown numbers, go to parties, speak up and so on. Everything that my SAD made me fear. Again, all of this took years and was very gradual but at this point I've reverted to my 11 year old self level of confidence. I also don't need to dress up and walk like murder to feel comfortable outside either. In fact, I can just roll out of bed, put on some clothes, forgo bra and contacts, and go out just fine. I take a great pride in it. :tongue:


----------



## Greyhart

P.S. I also got diagnosed with obsessive-phobic anxiety. Bacteria and dirt related. I didn't manage to defeat it. It's maybe like 40% better than it was but it's still there and tbh defeating this shit seems like unreal. At this level though, it doesn't bother me that much. I just have a bunch of routine rituals and rules I have to do. It bothers people who have to live with me though, since I demand same level of hygiene out of them and it leads to conflicts. So I moved away. Yey. This phobia is so ridiculous and illogical even to me. Touching this thing is fine and but this, that is actually connected to the first one is BACTERIA ALERT? It makes no sense. I kind of gave up on it, basically. :dry: Whatever brain, if it pleases you I'll wash my hands after touching refrigerator.


----------



## Greyhart

Aaah, yes. I also couldn't think about my therapist as anything but a person who eats my money and should be explaining me how to get better instead of making it about my feelings or my past. So each time I'd visit internally I was like "here goes another $20 that I could use to live for a 2+ weeks".


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is more than the grey skin girl
> 
> I'll try to answer but I'm really not as clear in books as I should be.
> 
> And he was actually in the fighting pits last time we saw him, I think? But like he was literally about to die, only he didn't? And now Dany's in the Dothraki Sea so lol who knows when they'll be able to actually meet
> @fair phantom fact check me
> 
> Edit: Oh and I don't think I they've burned anyone yet? They're just building up to it. They wanted to burn the willing king's son but Gilly took him? Bless her heart. That scared me because I figured they would just get mad and kill her baby when they found out but I guess they have some compassion. Lol.


I am terrible with names. Especially English names especially English fantasy names. So I come up with descriptive names for characters. Lady knight, papa Lannister, arabic prince, Dany's handmaiden. So on.



> who knows when they'll be able to actually meet


:'( So the TV show stopped following exact timeline...


----------



## Persephone Soul

@Greyhart Yeah, I get it, and I understand why some may do things that way. I really do. But I never could. The realm being led by a lie, is well... wrong (to me). Not only that, but Ned saw the destruction that was ahead, strictly because of (in fair phantom's words) Baby Hitler being on the thrown. No good was going to come to the realm with that Crown. So you take the facts that;

-He is NOT the rightful heir
-He was conceived in incest (and these are who hold the realm in their hand)...what other atrocities are the capable of and secrets have/will they keep from the people?
-PLUS the fact that Baby Hitler was a tyrant worse than his grandfather because he was irrational and a loose cannon. 

Truth is Truth. If I don't stand for truth, what do I stand for? I would have dealt with things the EXACT way as him. There is no doubt in my mind that Ned didn't have the welfare of the innocent children (even horrible Joffery), in his mind when he RISKED going to Cersei to give her an out (basically).

I *bow* to Ned Stark!


----------



## Persephone Soul

*side note*

I was thinking Sunday night while watching that intense episode.... Oh my gosh - in my own weird imagination - I would LOVVVE to see Dany and Jon together. They seem they would mesh well...? IDK maybe I am too far in lala-land lol. Just thought I would pull you all in with me. 

I was about to start the books, actually...but because I am so far in to the show, I figured maybe I shouldn't start now. Wish I would have first though. Oh well.

Anyway, carry on...


----------



## Greyhart

Hightail to North. Pretend being a supporter. Conspire to poison Joffrey. Win!

I think 2 characters I seem to agree the most in series are Tyrion (whom I fine extremely relatable not a small part due to daddy issues) and Varys.


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> *side note*
> 
> I was thinking Sunday night while watching that intense episode.... OMGAHHH, In my own weird imagination, I would LOVVVE to see Dany and Jon together. IDK, they seem they would mesh well...? IDK maybe I am too far in lala-land lol. Just thought I would pull yuh in with me.
> 
> I was about to start the books, actually...but because I am so far in to the show, I figured maybe I shouldn't start now. Wish I would have before the show. Oh well.
> 
> Anyway, carry on...


Her bear guard T^T I ship them so hard and now he has that skin thingy.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@SugarPlum I don't think that's what they meant about Baby Hitler... I wish I could respond to that post actually because I have some thoughts on why I would be okay with theoretically murderinf Joffrey but nurturing baby Hitler, but I can't think of the exact post 

One big thing... The people wouldn't care who led them. Honestly. They have their own lives. They want justice. They want to be kept safe. They want peace. But I think they could really care less about the rightful heir of the throne. They are unexposed to our democratic ideals of political involvement. I don't think it would matter much to them who was on the throne so long as their lives were kept intact. 

I love truth and I aim to find truth, but... This feels different. Alien. Truth that doesn't really matter, truth that the exposure of would hurt a lot of people. I would want to know the truth personally to understand the situation, but I wouldn't understand why everyone would have to know the truth at the expense of so many people.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@SugarPlum I started shipping Dany and Jon by the third chapter, I think. It only lasted so long, though, thank goodness. 

They're parallels just as Arya and Sansa are parallels (although in a more significant way). I hope they get together if they aren't like... related. And The Really Attractive Guy With Dany isn't upset by it.


Greyhart said:


> Hightail to North. Pretend being a supporter. Conspire to poison Joffrey. Win!
> 
> I think 2 characters I seem to agree the most in series are Tyrion (whom I fine extremely relatable not a small part due to daddy issues) and Varys.


I'm starting to like Varys from afar. I'm actually finding I agree with a lot of his views on how the kingdom should be run.


----------



## Persephone Soul

So truth is different if it hurts? I always stood by "truth hurts". 

I understand your position, I just disagree. That's all. Honestly, having people that believe like you do and ones who believe like me (and many others), are what make the world go round imo. 

I do hope you are feeling better today, bear <3


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear @Greyhart

Well there are a number of reasons Tyrion & Dany haven't met _yet_ in the books


* *




Tyrion's journey to Meereen is a real journey. Both physically and internally, as he struggles with all the negative emotions from the events that drove him from King's Landing (seriously the book reduced his angst by like 500% which...isn't necessarily a bad thing but it is a thing. There is so much more that happens with Tyrion in _A Dance with Dragons_ that I don't even know where to begin.

Also the situation in Meereen & Slaver's Bay is more complicated in the books. Seriously complicated. So many more factions.

Where _A Dance with Dragons_[/QUOTE] left off Tyrion & Mormont are with the mercenary group The Second Sons which is currently contracters to attack Dany even though Tyrion plans to try to win her over.

And yeah, Dany and Drogon eventually settled down in the Dothraki Sea, which is where we last saw her.

I expect they will meet in the next book.

For the record: Tyrion and Dany meeting earlier is _not_ one of the changes I have an issue with, except for the fact that they killed off Ser Barristan too make her more needy I guess. Ser Barry didn't even get to be named Hand of the Queen like in the books. 

Last we see Shireen she is back at castle black while Stannis is outside Winterfell. I can't recall them actually burning anyone at this point, although as Bear noted they did want to burn Mance Rayder's child and probably Maester Aemon but they got away.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> So truth is different if it hurts? I always stood by "truth hurts".
> 
> I understand your position, I just disagree. That's all. Honestly, having people that believe like you do and ones who believe like me (and many others), are what make the world go round imo.
> 
> I do hope you are feeling better today, bear <3


Thank you for your kind thoughts. Emotionally I'm better, and my body only sporadically hurts, but I'm still more immobilized than I think I've ever been in my life... It's okay though. I have books to read and a forum to post to and a sister who doesn't always mind bringing meals to me. 

It's not necessarily that the truth hurts... Sometimes, yes, but this is more than just telling a white lie to be polite (which of course I also do, but regardless). This is more... The truth would be harmful. It would kill people. Literally kill people. A lot of people. I don't think it's worth that. Poison Joffrey, whatever, but don't hurt so many people just because Jaime and Cersei were stupid and had children. 

I wish I could describe it more eloquently but it's hard to verbalize. Like... 

Truth is important, but for me... Truth isn't outright. Truth is untouchable, indescribable, unfathomable. I like the underlying truths. I stand for the underlying truths of the world, of kindness, of love, of inevitability. The matter-of-fact truths of life ("He's not the baby daddy!!" type truths) seem more... I don't know. Much less important. Meaningless. 

It's hard to make the distinction with words but trust me, in my mind there is certainly a distinction. 

Also, I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. Disagreement about characters is great. They show underlying philosophical differences between people, but in a very harmless and fun way. I love it.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Greyhart said:


> Her bear guard T^T I ship them so hard and now he has that skin thingy.


Forgive me...but, WHAT?!  lol


----------



## Greyhart

I argue for the good of the entire kingdom. Small people won't care who slept with whom. They already lived through one king slaying. Now second. More probably to come. What matters to them is food and shelter in the winter that will probably also bring icey zombies that they are not yet aware of. Besides what decides who is "rightful" heir? Robert became a king via violent rebellion. Did it make him a right person to decide lives of... probably millions of people? How murdering royal family to take their throne gives his heir any real right to sit on it?






Just to clarify, we are discussing fiction born out of a delusional mind of an old man, nobody is supposed to get hurt here.


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> Forgive me...but, WHAT?!  lol


Mormont. Whatshisname. Keep forgetting. Cmon he was making googly eyes at her from the start... I just realized there's probably a huge age difference in books... Whatever, it's a creepy setting with lots of morally abhorrent stuff going on, let me ship my ships.



fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear @Greyhart
> 
> Well there are a number of reasons Tyrion & Dany haven't met _yet_ in the books
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tyrion's journey to Meereen is a real journey. Both physically and internally, as he struggles with all the negative emotions from the events that drove him from King's Landing (seriously the book reduced his angst by like 500% which...isn't necessarily a bad thing but it is a thing. There is so much more that happens with Tyrion in _A Dance with Dragons_ that I don't even know where to begin.
> 
> Also the situation in Meereen & Slaver's Bay is more complicated in the books. Seriously complicated. So many more factions.
> 
> Where _A Dance with Dragons_ left off Tyrion & Mormont are with the mercenary group The Second Sons which is currently contracters to attack Dany even though Tyrion plans to try to win her over.
> 
> And yeah,* Dany and Drogon eventually settled down in the Dothraki Sea*, which is where we last saw her.
> 
> I expect they will meet in the next book.
> 
> For the record: Tyrion and Dany meeting earlier is _not_ one of the changes I have an issue with, except for the fact that they killed off Ser Barristan too make her more needy I guess. Ser Barry didn't even get to be named Hand of the Queen like in the books.
> 
> Last we see Shireen she is back at castle black while Stannis is outside Winterfell. I can't recall them actually burning anyone at this point, although as Bear noted they did want to burn Mance Rayder's child and probably Maester Aemon but they got away.



* *




What about other 2 dragons? She left them in dungeons?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom wow. You do know a lot. You're the type of person who could start an ASOIAF meta blog, ahh. (It's been my dream to kind of do that for like a yeah now, gah)


* *




How do you feel about the changes to Sansa? Honestly, those really put me off. Like, really. I love where she's at in the books, I love the possibility... and I think that the Jeyne Pool plot is so much... darker. Grittier. Truer to the characters, to the world, to the situation. (Then again maybe Sansa's plot does that, I haven't seen the actual show, but... Gah.) 

Can you imagine them burning Maester Aemon? Omg. Thank goodness they got away with him. I forgot about that, unfortunately :/ 

Also, I mean I know you just said that so this is kind of useless... I have some nostalgia now for the books journey of Tyrion, especially given how quick his show one was. I hated it at the time - I hate anything to do with the sea, idk why - but a lot happened there. You saw so much of him. It was an apple story, as I call it. A necessary story that was too real but perfect all the same.

Hey have they done the walk thing with Cersei yet by the way? They probably wouldn't have that on YouTube if they did...




I'm also wondering, Phantom... Why do you like the series so much? It seems from what you've written here that you're very knowledgable about it, but wasn't it you last night who asked why we enjoyed it? (Sorry, I'm really just pleasantly curious.)


----------



## Persephone Soul

I still *bow* to Ned  ... But "agree to disagree" is my favorite saying. Hardly anyone ever agrees with me, irl, so I am no stranger to that saying. Hah. 

I never cried in this show, as much as I did when he was beheaded. When Joffery made Sansa look at his head on that spike... OMG! Before they showed Sansa *thinking* about pushing him off, my mind was already there! Wholey crap, I would have killed him! I probably would have 'fell' with him, so I wouldn't be tortured later etc.

Anyway, I am SO glad you are doing better emotionally, @alittlebear . I am praying for your strength to get through this trying time (physically). Stay strong, bear.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart 


* *




Yes about the dragons, I think?

I always felt bad for them. Like what the heck. All they have emotionally is their dragon mother but she always favored the feisty black one who never does what he's told. What is life. :/


 
@SugarPlum Thank you for your concern  if anything I feel bad for my family though. We're used to having someone who can like contribute a little bit, not someone who takes like 10x more time to do anything than they usually do. We're figuring it out, though. I'll be kind of useful today so that'll be good.


----------



## Greyhart

Red wedding was the worst for me. I didn't cry but I was legit shocked that it happened, that it was actually show on in a show in such details. I didn't expect that to happen at all.

U guys are making me want to read books. I don't want to join "It's different from books!" crowd yet. Dx


----------



## Persephone Soul

Why does everyone keep using the term "ships"? I am utterly confused! lol :anyone:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart I don't know how you don't read the books. I tend to have this "one true fan" mentality where I personally don't feel I'm actually apart of the fan group if I don't like, read the books. (It's only for me -- I think people can be true fans without obsessively consuming the source material... But like for me I need to know where it comes from to enjoy. Kind of. It's weird and one of my irrational things.) 

I don't think that one necessarily gets on the "no it's not like this in the books!!" train. For me reading the books helps me appreciate the show.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't read everything he posts. Sorry, @Barakiel. You only need to ask angelcat about Te to know this isn't me specifically picking on alittlebear. I can't believe I have to clarify that.
> 
> I don't think she is typist. I have nothing against her. I have said this.
> 
> I'd rather not be at the center of anymore arguments in the future. I only have so much patience.


No no, if you want to call me out, go right ahead. :smile: I'd love for someone to help me understand Fi more, but it's just something about Fe that kind of annoys me. :angry:


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> The one issue I have is that @_Barakiel_ has made comments about disliking Fi and Fe and you haven't said a word. I personally see neither as being an issue because everyone has preferences and it's not causing anyone harm (I mean, it's MBTI, it's not it's the end of the world if someone says they prefer one function to another - they're all just theory made up by some random people and don't define humans in their entirety). This is all just theoretical discussion and it would probably be more constructive, if you feel badly about something, to provide contradictory information to claims you don't like so people can learn, rather than feeling attacked. I don't want you to think I'm having a go at you, because I'm not (you'll just have to take my word for it if you feel otherwise). I'm just trying to explain what I think went wrong with the previous misunderstanding.
> (Sorry for using you as an example, @_Barakiel_ feel free to ask me to remove this! As I said before, everything you and @_alittlebear_ have said seems perfectly reasonable to me.)
> 
> As @tine said, let's just move on.


Oh no, it's fine to use me as an example, cause you're entirely right, I don't like how high end Fe operates, and I don't entirely understand Fi, though I am trying to do the latter. :boxing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Just to be clear, I was being completely sarcastic about the typing thing for me lol. I wasn't really asking. But thank you anyway. 

That happens with me. When I am being sarcastic people think I am serious, and vice versa. 

And, oswin, I would have to go through a post like I did with living dead. Piece by piece. Otherwise, I tend to see the general 'feel' of it all. I got ESFP as a general feel for her post, but after breaking it down, its clear she is Fe/Se.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> No no, if you want to call me out, go right ahead. :smile: I'd love for someone to help me understand Fi more, but it's just something about Fe that kind of annoys me. :angry:


I really don't know how you feel about Fi, but we both did agree about Fe and self-sacrifice.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Oh yes, it's really quite good, though I only finished Volume 2, and am _patiently_ waiting for the third season. And by patiently, I mean annoyedly.


I'm kind of entranced. I wish I had someone to talk to about it, but my best friend who used to love it is now telling me she doesn't like it very much :/ which makes me want to not like it as much now, too, with my Fe. But it's incredible. It really is.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I agree, I liked him following what he thought was right, but didnt like that he dragged his family into it too. Yeah Jaime may be a bit of a rubbish person but did the right thing for a lot of people.


Usual conflict between morality and pragmatism, not just limited to Game of Thrones, but many other media examples. :glee:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> No no, if you want to call me out, go right ahead. :smile: I'd love for someone to help me understand Fi more, but it's just something about Fe that kind of annoys me. :angry:


What annoys you? 

Sorry, I don't like to annoy people... I do it a lot, though. (I've always attributed that to my social awkwardness and excessive positivity though, not my Fe. And my penchant to always do the right thing, sigh...)


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I'm kind of entranced. I wish I had someone to talk to about it, but my best friend who used to love it is now telling me she doesn't like it very much :/ which makes me want to not like it as much now, too, with my Fe. But it's incredible. It really is.


I still personally like Fate/Zero quite a bit more, but for a series, it's not bad, and I'd definitely watch it again. :cheers2:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I really don't know how you feel about Fi, but we both did agree about Fe and self-sacrifice.


I told @fair phantom and @ElliCat this yesterday, but I don't have a particular attachment to what people consider to be conventional morality, and I wonder how Fi users can appear so sure of themselves and their beliefs. :ball:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> I still personally like Fate/Zero quite a bit more, but for a series, it's not bad, and I'd definitely watch it again. :cheers2:


Oh, and what about Toragami? I so watched two minutes of that before choosing to watch RWBY, but it seemed like a fun concept.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion hoopla will use this as evidence of strong Si.


I have a confession.

I realized my arguments for you associating Klingon with whatever it was you were associating it with as an indication of Si were poor. 

I still believe you use Si rather than Ni, of course. Though I realized that really all types do that... "hey this reminds me of this thing!" 

I never understood the memory=Si thing. Doesn't every human access a working memory? I read here a couple years ago that Si is "Oh, better be careful with the stove because I burned myself last time". That sounded to me like a functioning memory and intellect. That's why Si was the hardest function for me to understand.

So why make that mistake if I didn't believe Si=memory? I suppose... personal association, an impression you attach onto things. I know for me, sometimes I can only see something in one way in particular. Even if Ne can offer multiple angles to open my mind, it will infinitely remain that special something. I think that was my impression. 

Either way, it was a bad argument. You were right, and now I admit my defeat. I used to make that mistake quite a bit, and realized I was doing the very thing I was against. Human brains are interesting... I'm so unaware of certain things I do and hypocrisy is rarely intentional. @LuchoIsLurking I consider this to be the scariest aspect of not being able to control one's mind.

But no @SugarPlum's statement didn't really strike me as Si for some reason? It's just... memory I guess. Didn't strike me as much of anything.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> What annoys you?
> 
> Sorry, I don't like to annoy people... I do it a lot, though. (I've always attributed that to my social awkwardness and excessive positivity though, not my Fe. And my penchant to always do the right thing, sigh...)


I think it's because I attribute Fe to work in tandem with Si, another function which I don't seem to use. If I'm mistaken, feel free to point it out, but I think it's because I can't understand how Fe can put other people's morality above their own. :dispirited:

Oh no, social awkwardness and positivity are quite cool in their own right. :smile: As for the penchant for doing the right thing, well, that's another topic entirely. :typingneko:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Oh, and what about Toragami? I so watched two minutes of that before choosing to watch RWBY, but it seemed like a fun concept.


Never seen it, but it was made by Madhouse, creators of Black Lagoon, so that's a good sign. :fox:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Barakiel I have a hard time understanding my morality and others, how people define that... Because even though everyone is convinced I'm Fe, I definitely think I follow my own moral standards. That standard is simple and I think generally agreeable - do not harm others, do good to others, help others as much as possible, bring love into the world - but it's definitely my standard, and it takes a lot to make me break it. (I'm very immune to peer pressure, actually. Always have been.)


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Just to be clear, I was being completely sarcastic about the typing thing for me lol. I wasn't really asking. But thank you anyway.
> 
> That happens with me. When I am being sarcastic people think I am serious, and vice versa.
> 
> And, oswin, I would have to go through a post like I did with living dead. Piece by piece. Otherwise, I tend to see the general 'feel' of it all. I got ESFP as a general feel for her post, but after breaking it down, its clear she is Fe/Se.


Ugh, I'm just not on top of this thread) Oh well)


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel I have a hard time understanding my morality and others, how people define that... Because even though everyone is convinced I'm Fe, I definitely think I follow my own moral standards. That standard is simple and I think generally agreeable - do not harm others, do good to others, help others as much as possible, bring love into the world - but it's definitely my standard, and it takes a lot to make me break it. (I'm very immune to peer pressure, actually. Always have been.)


Interesting... where do those moral values come from, exactly? :ball:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> I told @_fair phantom_ and @_ElliCat_ this yesterday, but I don't have a particular attachment to what people consider to be conventional morality, and *I wonder how Fi users can appear so sure of themselves and their beliefs*. :ball:


We could say Fi spends more time sitting in a corner thinking about right and wrong, and it's from a personal point of view so there's less to take from the outside, it's an internal process.


:gentleman:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel I have a hard time understanding my morality and others, how people define that... Because even though everyone is convinced I'm Fe, I definitely think I follow my own moral standards. That standard is simple and I think generally agreeable - do not harm others, do good to others, help others as much as possible, bring love into the world - but it's definitely my standard, and it takes a lot to make me break it. (I'm very immune to peer pressure, actually. Always have been.)


I like to think of F as Value rather than Feeling. This clears up confusion and gets rid of the "well I have my own value system; aren't I Fi".

Fe can certainly attest to a value that goes against the grain... if these values will reach out to others in an objective way. I would say that fits you.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel I have a hard time understanding my morality and others, how people define that... Because even though everyone is convinced I'm Fe, I definitely think I follow my own moral standards. That standard is simple and I think generally agreeable - do not harm others, do good to others, help others as much as possible, bring love into the world - but it's definitely my standard, and it takes a lot to make me break it. (I'm very immune to peer pressure, actually. Always have been.)


I think healthy high-Fe users can access Fi fairly well if they don't devalue it, and vice versa (this is one reason why I want socionics to work for me).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Interesting... where do those moral values come from, exactly? :ball:


Common sense? I don't know, they've just always been there. I can't stand to see people hurt, and I want to help people. I guess I have no other choice but to follow these morals, given how if I don't... I just can't. Knowing someone could be hurt just eats away at me. I can't stand it when others are hurt, because of me or not.


----------



## Persephone Soul

ae1905 said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had Ni? Cool, how was it? Lol
> 
> Nah, i think I was just exploring all my options. I am fairly certain I am Ne/Si. The F/T axis seems to be the hold up now.
> 
> Although, that cognitive function test I linked earlier, I always seem to get INJ.
> 
> Oy vey
> 
> 
> 
> you were pretty convinced the Ni dress fit, what with what your friends and family thought of you as the go-to girl for advice
> 
> but I'm sure INFPs can dish out sage advice, too--_and _fool everyone into thinking she has Ni!
> 
> that's the Ne magic )
Click to expand...

hah! Good memory. I feel like I may have been a little ornery in my past threads. Maybe proving Ni is still a possibility, and dont just rule it out before you hear my "convincing" case for it. However, I can't get past how much I use Ne and Si. I do prob use Ni, but I don't think its in my top 4. However all the things I did say, were infact true. And i have always resonated with the descriptions. And i still do get INJ on tests sometimes. But yeah. SFJ or NFP is still my options.


----------



## ae1905

Avalnoah said:


> Is Ni an advice giving function? I just know I like giving long, over complicated methaphorical speeches to people because I love doing so (also because I am smarter and ALWAYS RIGHT DAMN IT)


hey!

_I'm _the comic relief around here, K?

(though I admit you _are _pretty funny


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Ok, now I'm curious as to where that came from. Anything besides that? erc2:


Well my impression is: you are playful and fun. You don't like things to get too serious so you will try to make jokes. You have some interest in ideas (your love of deconstruction) and you are enthusiastic about what you like. I'm guessing your wing would be 8 because you can enjoy conflict, like playing devil's advocate, don't seem to worry about being assertive. so Core 7w8. Tritype hmmm...784?


----------



## ae1905

SugarPlum said:


> hah! Good memory. I feel like I may have been a little ornery in my past threads. Maybe proving Ni is still a possibility, and dont just rule it out before you hear my "convincing" case for it. However, I can't get past how much I use Ne and Si. I do prob use Ni, but I don't think its in my top 4. However all the things I did say, were infact true. And i have always resonated with the descriptions. And i still do get INJ on tests sometimes. But yeah. SFJ or NFP is still my options.


I see, so you're not sure about E-I?


----------



## orbit

Why is fair phantom so smart and knowledgable. 

I feel like we should sacrifice her. 

Alittlebear, you're quite the cult leader....


----------



## Max

I don't know if I am skeptical, hardmouthed, tough bastard who likes challenges, or just a cp 6w7. 

I can see 8w7 too, though.

Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk
@fair phantom @SugarPlum @Barakiel


----------



## Persephone Soul

Avalnoah said:


> ae1905 said:
> 
> 
> 
> you were pretty convinced the Ni dress fit, what with what your friends and family thought of you as the go-to girl for advice
> 
> but I'm sure INFPs can dish out sage advice, too--_and _fool everyone into thinking she has Ni!
> 
> that's the Ne magic )
> 
> 
> 
> Is Ni an advice giving function? I just know I like giving long, over complicated methaphorical speeches to people because I love doing so (also because I am smarter and ALWAYS RIGHT DAMN IT)
Click to expand...

Anyone could be lol. That wasn't the whole convo. I knew what he meant by it, although it may come of as a very stereotypical view of Ni from my view point.

I am fully aware that there is MUCH more to Ni lol. Just thought I would clarify


----------



## ae1905

alittlebear said:


> 6-10 maybe is fast for us, on and off? Sometimes the AM, but it just... depends really on the flow of the conversation.


you mean you _sleep!!_

slackers


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@fair phantom Curious what enneagram you think I am?

I'm going to take a brisk walk and hopefully will not pass out in the heat. -_- I will respond to your questions later. 

Pending requests/replies:

Determining what ethical objectivity is and how it differentiates from Fi for @fair phantom
Getting around to @LuchoIsLurking's reply to me because he was a champ and took 2 hours to write me a wall of text. He also had interesting things to say.
Rereading @shinynotshiny's questionnaire in order to explain Si from my perspective (and think of a way to eschew Fe's influence).

This fucking thread. What have I gotten myself into.


----------



## Persephone Soul

ae1905 said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> hah! Good memory. I feel like I may have been a little ornery in my past threads. Maybe proving Ni is still a possibility, and dont just rule it out before you hear my "convincing" case for it. However, I can't get past how much I use Ne and Si. I do prob use Ni, but I don't think its in my top 4. However all the things I did say, were infact true. And i have always resonated with the descriptions. And i still do get INJ on tests sometimes. But yeah. SFJ or NFP is still my options.
> 
> 
> 
> I see, so you're not sure about E-I?
Click to expand...


I am very sure on the preferences. Introvert completely. So I am very tempted to say ISFJ or INFP based on just that. But, if we take functions in to play, I then have to distinguish between Pi and Ji. I may be a Pe or Je. So if its about 'functions', I could be one of the 4. I have the hardest time accepting Fe dom. Extrovert, period just does bot sit well at all. I could very much accept S over N though. But I need cold hard facts to convince me of extroversion and Fe (I am really leaning towards Fi).


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Why is fair phantom so smart and knowledgable.
> 
> I feel like we should sacrifice her.
> 
> Alittlebear, you're quite the cult leader....


:eek-new:

sooo going to haunt you if you do :ghost2:


----------



## ae1905

SugarPlum said:


> I am very sure on the preferences. Introvert completely. So I am very tempted to say ISFJ or INFP based on just that. But, if we take functions in to play, I then have to distinguish between Pi and Ji. I may be a Pe or Je. So if its about 'functions', I could be one of the 4. I have the hardest time accepting Fe dom. Extrovert, period just does bot sit well at all. I could very much accept S over N though. But I need cold hard facts to convince me of extroversion and Fe (I am really leaning towards Fi).


right, but Si-Ne are dom-inf in ISFJ and tert-aux in INFP

and one is a J and the other a P

so not that similar


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Rereading @_shinynotshiny_'s questionnaire in order to explain Si from my perspective (and think of a way to eschew Fe's influence).
> 
> This fucking thread. What have I gotten myself into.


What questionnaire, though?


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> :eek-new:
> 
> sooo going to haunt you if you do :ghost2:


:hotneko: We'll sacrifice your ghost then


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> What questionnaire, though?


Good question. You posted one on this thread. I think it was one @angelcat wrote? I'll have to stalk you to find it.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Well my impression is: you are playful and fun. You don't like things to get too serious so you will try to make jokes. You have some interest in ideas (your love of deconstruction) and you are enthusiastic about what you like. I'm guessing your wing would be 8 because you can enjoy conflict, like playing devil's advocate, don't seem to worry about being assertive. so Core 7w8. Tritype hmmm...784?


Seems pretty legit, so I'll go with it for now. Though I am curious, does anyone else have any other ideas? 7w8 seems cool, and 784 makes quite a bit of sense, but I'd rather get you guys' opinions before I commit. :typingneko:


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Good question. You posted one on this thread. I think it was one @_angelcat_ wrote? I'll have to stalk you to find it.


I posted two.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> :eek-new:
> 
> sooo going to haunt you if you do :ghost2:


Usually I'm the sacrifice victim. What has happened to make this world turn upside down.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> :hotneko: We'll sacrifice your ghost then


:th_Jttesur:


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Usually I'm the sacrifice victim. What has happened to make this world turn upside down.


My ISFPness


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Why would it dilute the message?


People don't share the same values about anything, and if you have some people just jumping on the bandwagon for infamy, that's all that people will consider the entirety. I imagine the root of SJW has good intentions, but when people see something negative about an organization, they'll consider that the entirety of that organization. :ball:


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I noticed Fe soaks stuff up more? And there was another difference but I forgot about it but it'll come back to me once (it was a difference between Bear and me that was explained as Fi and Fe)
> 
> Like for example there's a knee length sock (This is an exaggeration so like please don't kill me)
> 
> Fe would say the sock is a scarf since other people are using the sock as a scarf. It's more open to other values? It's like the paint that seeps into the other paint goopy things to make new colors? Idk.
> 
> But Fi will stick to it being a sock like no matter what. Fi is less open? The paint can seep but not as much. Like it won't want to.
> 
> Disclaimer: This is probably wrong.


Wouldn't it be more like Fe users use the socks as socks because that's what people do, they wear socks, socks are comfy and they're appropriate only on your feet, but then Fi comes along with socks sewn together into a colorful scarf because why not?

:abnormal:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Why would it dilute the message?


Yes, that confuses me. The more people care, the better conditions will be. The more we will be heard. The better treatment people will receive. 

We have to make sure that people understand the important things and don't just go in ankle deep and think they've done their part -- we have to show that it's not about doing your part for social acceptance, being politically correct... it's about genuinely caring and doing our best to help the lives of people and clot the injustices that have plagued so many groups for far, far, far too long... But as long as we do that, work our best to get the real message out, make people care... I think things will get better. I really think they will.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> People don't share the same values about anything, and if you have some people just jumping on the bandwagon for infamy, that's all that people will consider the entirety. I imagine the root of SJW has good intentions, but when people see something negative about an organization, they'll consider that the entirety of that organization. :ball:


/whispers/ _*Unwind*_ /side-eye at @Curiphant/


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> /whispers/ _*Unwind*_ /side-eye at @Curiphant/


Eh, maybe it's just me. :ball:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> My impression is either 6w5 or 5w6 but I haven't interacted with you as much. Do you have any questionnaires? I can mull it over and get back to you. :typingneko:


type 6w5 is how I typed myself. 

I do. I am always apprehensive with showing them though because I typically find past answers repugnant. I could fill out a new one.

Shiny disagrees w/ 5 though. I don't think 5 is my core either; not sure if she objects to 5 wing.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

:ball:

^This is cute and I like it. 

:kitteh:



EDIT: Hey, what happened to all the old smileys?...nvm, I found them.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Eh, maybe it's just me. :ball:


Oh, no. I was referencing a book series, which is about a fictional social justice issue. One of the big hindrances to their movement is a group of people who think they are righteously angry and go and murder a lot of people, reading havoc


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Yes, that confuses me. The more people care, the better conditions will be. The more we will be heard. The better treatment people will receive.
> 
> We have to make sure that people understand the important things and don't just go in ankle deep and think they've done their part -- we have to show that it's not about doing your part for social acceptance, being politically correct... it's about genuinely caring and doing our best to help the lives of people and clot the injustices that have plagued so many groups for far, far, far too long... But as long as we do that, work our best to get the real message out, make people care... I think things will get better. I really think they will.


Yes, that's all very nice and all, but we've seen time and time again, that idealistic organizations are then taken over by people who don't have those ideals in hand. And the more people care, the more they'll argue about what they deem to be right, and what they want to happen, as if their morality is any more valid than the next person's... it just seems like another example of idealistic youths wanting to change things. :ball:


----------



## 68097

Fi is an abstract, individualistic, ruminating function that finds it expressly difficult to put emotion into words.

Fe is an objective, matter of fact function that easily conveys its sentiments through judgments. 

I think it would be harder to sense Fi in oneself than Fi, because our internal functions are often the ones we are not consciously aware of. It took me awhile to recognize Si, but I knew I was Fe the moment I comprehended it on a most basic level of being other-people-centric. Not in mirroring them (never have, unless you're talking good manners), or in agreeing with the consensus of opinion (never do), but having them, their welfare, their interests, their reactions, their emotional state, first and foremost in my mind whenever they are in the room with me.

For me, it has never been "I am offended by this" first, but rather, "This could offend people."

PEOPLE. Not ME. PEOPLE. I watch stuff and go, "Wow, my mom would hate this." It's like I don't exist half the time in my own mind; like I am here as a guardian to protect others from things they would dislike, find offensive, etc. _Wow, my friend would really hate finding out THIS about her favorite actor -- I'm not going to mention it and pray she never finds out_. Never mind that I don't like it either -- my first thought is, "What will HER reaction be?"


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Oh, no. I was referencing a book series, which is about a fictional social justice issue. One of the big hindrances to their movement is a group of people who think they are righteously angry and go and murder a lot of people, reading havoc


Oh, I've never read that, seems interesting. :kitteh:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Yes, that's all very nice and all, but we've seen time and time again, that idealistic organizations are then taken over by people who don't have those ideals in hand. And the more people care, the more they'll argue about what they deem to be right, and what they want to happen, as if their morality is any more valid than the next person's... it just seems like another example of idealistic youths wanting to change things. :ball:


But I mean... These things do work? People do care. People will use the cause for their own advantage, but it's not like change is impossible... and change tends to happen when people care. 

Like... My passion is ableism. It's everywhere. I hate it. But it's not getting anywhere... because no one is speaking up for us. Compare with race movements and the LGBT movements. People are talking about them, the supporters of these movements are widespread, so change is happening. Laws are being passed. People are understanding. People are changing. Conditions are improving. 

Broadening the movement does come with its challenges, but ultimately I think they help more than anything. Without big movements, it's hard for any change to happen... I think.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Oh, I've never read that, seems interesting. :kitteh:


It's wonderful. Probably the only Young Adult series I find perfect. (The writing itself isn't stellar, but everything else... Crescendo. Perfection. Absolute perfection. )


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Fi is an abstract, individualistic, ruminating function that finds it expressly difficult to put emotion into words.
> 
> Fe is an objective, matter of fact function that easily conveys its sentiments through judgments.
> 
> I think it would be harder to sense Fi in oneself than Fi, because our internal functions are often the ones we are not consciously aware of. It took me awhile to recognize Si, but I knew I was Fe the moment I comprehended it on a most basic level of being other-people-centric. Not in mirroring them (never have, unless you're talking good manners), or in agreeing with the consensus of opinion (never do), but having them, their welfare, their interests, their reactions, their emotional state, first and foremost in my mind whenever they are in the room with me.


Crap. 

EDIT: you edited yours, and the second part makes me take my "crap" back.

carry on...


----------



## Dangerose

I wasn't really trying to talk about social justice and all that, more Fe and Fi, but here, let me give my opinion)

I'm not particularly against social justice as a concept, like, helping people and changing the world for the better and all that, fighting for your principles = things I believe in

But I hate the way most of it's done. Most of it has a really 'victimy' feel. And this feeling that they _want_ to find problems where they don't exist. "Hey, where're you from?" is a polite question, not a 'microagression'. And...whatever trace amounts of racism are still found in America _aren't_ because old white guys are out to get black people. The legitimate class tensions and the struggles of, say, black people, came out of centuries of history, we'd have to start in the slavery culture of Africa in the 15th, 16th century to even start to figure out the problems. And I mean...I _hated_ "Yes All Women". First of all, I felt all left out. Guys never whistle at me on the street  And the few times I had I felt pretty good about it? And moved on with my life? But when you start making it seem like all women are being oppressed by the patriarchy and are total victims...they start feeling oppressed, they start acting like victims. Which is kind-of the opposite of the point?

It just feels like tilting at windmills. If they want to see more people of color in television...they need to make that happen. There's a lot of people who think like that. Get them together. Write great black characters, great female characters, whatever..._do_ something. They should be making people feel empowered, not like victims. 

And so often they are stretching statistics or even totally fabricating them. (Example: the wage gap). Which makes me think...they aren't interested in solving the problems. They're interested in furthering their causes. 

And, with the most extreme SJWs, they just give off a really vitriolic, hateful, close-minded vibe. The problem with Tumblr in particular is that...it's all based on the reblog. There's no tempering of an issue. I have never seen a discussion on Tumblr that started off with a statement and worked to a more moderate statement. Every reblog just makes the opinion more intense, or more diametrically opposed. Up to 11. Every time.

Which...yeah, I have some other thoughts, and I disagree with a lot of the things they say, but that's not what bothers me as much as how it's handled.


----------



## fair phantom

*sigh* this was just the sort of thing I've been trying to avoid. Seems like a good time to go read.

@SugarPlum don't worry about it. I'm not hurt or upset I just listen to my internal warning alarm. The conversation was starting to remind me way too much of old unhealthy thought patterns and so I removed myself.

And now I'm going to pull a 4-7-9 and get away from this feminism/sjw discussion. :kirby:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> But I mean... These things do work? People do care. People will use the cause for their own advantage, but it's not like change is impossible... and change tends to happen when people care.
> 
> Like... My passion is ableism. It's everywhere. I hate it. But it's not getting anywhere... because no one is speaking up for us. Compare with race movements and the LGBT movements. People are talking about them, the supporters of these movements are widespread, so change is happening. Laws are being passed. People are understanding. People are changing. Conditions are improving.
> 
> Broadening the movement does come with its challenges, but ultimately I think they help more than anything. Without big movements, it's hard for any change to happen... I think.


Yes, and then later on in the future, all those changes will become naught. :dry:

It just annoys me, because I see it as mainly people bickering about what should be done than any real change being evident. People will still abuse blacks and gays, because they deem it to be right. But removing that means removing free will, so that's not right either. :frustrating:

It's funny, cause the rational side of my mind says you should be right, but I'm just so tired of idealism that my heart won't accept it.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> People will still abuse blacks and gays, because they deem it to be right. But removing that means removing free will, so that's not right either. :frustrating:



:grey:

:sour:


----------



## Rebel Sheep

My opinion on social justice, especially Tumblr social justice is that the more sensible people get grouped into a very crazy vocal minority.

Although a lot of people who follow social justices for the general idea, I feel like many of them don't undertake the research into really understanding these issues and just parrot issues like sheep.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Oswin you enjoy being whistled at? Bothers me. Disrespectful in my opinion. 

I like flirting sure, but to walk across the street, and be demanded I provide numbers or to have your sticky hands on me? I'm a stranger on the street, I don't know you, and I don't like feeling as if my worth is just looks. Not as if I'm never vain or anything. I just don't like being viewed as the pretty lady on the street; as a decoration. Especially when women typically do not catcall. Reeks of some dominance.

The victim mentality I agree can be a crutch when you don't do something about it. Slactivism is rampant. I'm trying to come up with ways to put my ideology to use rather than wear it on my sleeve.

SJWs can have decent points; I agree that wearing a bindi is a no no. Most of them are just... far out of reality with unrealistic expectations. Doesn't make their arguments convincing, that's for sure.
@Avalnoah You get the sense most of them have never read feminist literature. 

The best part about feminist literature is it allows you to realize that feminism can be broad.

It seems like tumblr feminism is a one size fits all type of feminism, and if you don't fit into that category, you're not a feminist.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I'm with you about idealism and equality when it comes to things like... communism. It's not happening. Lol. People can't be that selfless, and forcing them to be that selfless is just going to backfire big time. (Not to mention that some selfish person would have to hold power over all the powerless people...)
> 
> But it's different with some things, I think. Look at Disney. Look at America. Look at children. Look at all the beauty idealism can and has brought. Life will never be perfect, but for me, we're not going to get anywhere unless we strive for perfection. We'll stay on the same level forever. Which may be acceptable with some things, but I don't think that's acceptable when it comes to the treatment of people.


Communism is stupid, honestly. Yeah, make a society where all the wealth is controlled by one person, and call it selfless... *Wait, what?!* :frustrating:

Yeah, sure, Disney and America have brought a safe haven for most people... but then I see my own country rejecting refugees because... why? Fuck if I could tell you. :dry: As for the treatment of people, I don't trust anyone to help them beyond a simple "I'm sorry", because I've seen this song and dance before, it's why I don't trust school teachers anymore. You could say I'm an idealist who's frustrated with the way reality is.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Idealism isn't pointless. It's vision. It's hope. It's a dream of a better tomorrow that we work to manifest in reality.
> 
> I understand how people could see idealism as pointless. It's easy to dismiss it as such. But that's... that's not the way it is. Of course we need the realists to help in their own way and not everyone was born an idealist (in some ways, thank goodness), but... As a natural born idealist, I can't help but see your points about how pointless the core of my soul is and just go "nope." I know it's hard for you to understand it because you don't see it, but... As someone who has seen it and who knows with all of her heart and soul and mind and everything that it's true... Well, I would ask you to just trust me, but naturally that's not how it would work ;D


Oh no, I understand idealism, I was an idealist when younger. But now, after years of bullying and forced conversation, and seeing people isolated because of a disability, I just don't care anymore. I value individuals over collectives, so I just see your SJW as a failed experiment for people to get along. :dry:


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Idealism without pragmatism is useless.

Thinking you can make the world perfect in the sense that absolutely everyone will be kind to one another is pointless idealism. You're only going to waste your singular existence achieving nothing.

Thinking that you can change the conditions of women in places like the Middle East through action is also idealism because it is very unlikely you will, but at least through your action you could make a difference in people's lives.

I think my problem with some idealists is that their goals are often poorly designed, ambiguous and unrealistic.
They never achieve their goals because they are literally impossible and ultimately words without actions are meaningless. You can't change the foundation of humanity so that *everyone* will be kind, that's just impossible.

If I were to state a good example of an idealist, I would say Elon Musk. His goal is to revolutionize the space and technology industry, something that is very unlikely to happen but not impossible. His businesses have done immense work and even if he doesn't succeed in revolutionizing energy industry, his effects will still be seen.

I think my biggest problem is that too many people live in Weltschmerz and that annoys me greatly.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Social justice philosophy:

1) Calm. No force. Cramming beliefs down people's throats will *not* make for a convincing argument. It will veer people away, which is the opposite of the goal at hand.

2) Read. Not just tumblr. Read many ideologies from a plethora of activists. Get as much info as possible. Don't sit in one comfy seat. Doing so causes radicalism. 

2)Reason! This is hard... cognitive dissonance is a powerful force. Emotions are malevolent beasts with minds of their own. I flip flop with veganism. I was vegetarian on and off as a child (not principled enough... damn it we're at mcdonalds forget it). I could not rationalize why killing humans was wrong, and yet killing animals was acceptable. Seeing animals in pain, wrong, animal abuse, wrong, hunting an animal? Dinner! 

Then I started learning that our physiology (this is controversial; no debates please) is omnivorous, and nutrient deficiencies is a genuine side effect. Currently, I eat as much grass fed meat as I can, try to cut down on dairy, and won't eat conventional eggs if I can help it... but sometimes omelets at restaruants are tempting. I hope to become more principled one day (which means I'm lazy). I'm currently reading to see if maybe there is a way I can be vegan adequately, since I don't like eating meat. But I am aware of the cons. Many SJWs... do not do this. 

3)Strategize. Let's say you finally admit your arguments are irrational or harmful. Maybe a fact goes against your theory. Find a way to implement these facts with your feelings effectively. Do I believe that social conditioning allows women to feel more emotional than they actually are? Sure. There is a sexist role at play. Some of it is also estrogen and other female hormones. Look at it from all angles to omit bias. Even if you disagree, at least see how it could work. 

4)Misandry is not an effective way to combat feminism. The end. 

5)Social justice is extremely important. Unfortunately, SJWs promote a bad name, and then people are close minded towards the significance of these issues. if you want to judge all feminists or vegans or whatever social issue flavor of the month, you're just as bad as the SJWs themselves.

*TLDR; Social justice is important, but be logical, open minded and well read. No radicalism allowed. Giving a bad name deflects people from what's important.*


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Barakiel said:


> Communism is stupid, honestly. Yeah, make a society where all the wealth is controlled by one person, and call it selfless... *Wait, what?!* :frustrating:
> 
> Yeah, sure, Disney and America have brought a safe haven for most people... but then I see my own country rejecting refugees because... why? Fuck if I could tell you. :dry: As for the treatment of people, I don't trust anyone to help them beyond a simple "I'm sorry", because I've seen this song and dance before, it's why I don't trust school teachers anymore. You could say I'm an idealist who's frustrated with the way reality is.


Communism according to Marx is very different from how it was applied in reality. In perfect Communism, everyone would be working hard for the greater good of humanity. Everyone's wealth would be shared among everybody, it's not controlled by one singular person. This is obviously an example of pointless idealism since its unrealistic to think people will work hard for one another, humans are inherently selfish.

Marx was a great diagnoser of the problems of capitalism but he utterly fails at applying solutions to solve them.


----------



## Barakiel

Avalnoah said:


> Communism according to Marx is very different from how it was applied in reality. In perfect Communism, everyone would be working hard for the greater good of humanity. Everyone's wealth would be shared among everybody, it's not controlled by one singular person. This is obviously an example of pointless idealism since its unrealistic to think people will work hard for one another, humans are inherently selfish.
> 
> Marx was a great diagnoser of the problems of capitalism but he utterly fails at applying solutions to solve them.


Yeah, because everyone is concerned for everyone else, sure. Unless they relate to them personally, nope. A good fantasy, but also one that encroaches on individuality, humanity isn't a collective hive mind, people. :dry:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I have to leave this thread because people are not reading what I am saying. 

Humans are selfish. We are not always kind. At our core we are kind, but it is too much to expect all of us to access our core, for anyone to access their core. We can hope for that, but we cannot count on that. Society is cruel. It will never be purely positive, and it will always step on someone. 

My being an idealist doesn't mean that I am oblivious to the harsh realities of the world. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- I know the harsh, sad truths of human nature. I've been a victim of them. I have been enveloped in a hell created by human hands. I know what darkness does to the human soul, and I know that there is too much darkness even in the most glowing of spirits. I know that we will never overcome this. Not in this lifetime. 

But for me, _this fact is no reason not to strive for a better world_. There is too much darkness in the world, but that doesn't mean we should succumb to the darkness... It means we should fill ourselves with our own light and flash it out to the world in bursts. It means we must become love. It means we must heal as many hurts as we can, because while the hurts will never all be healed, that doesn't mean the little laughter that can rise will not overpower the cries in their own way. 

I am leaving because this conversation is tiring me, as people are somehow reading what I am saying but somehow not comprehending it in their heads. You are saying that I am saying what I am not saying. This is what I am saying. Maybe you get it, maybe you don't, it doesn't matter. I'm not mad at anyone here personally, but I am always frustrated when my words are misunderstood and misunderstood and misunderstood. 

I think I'll leave the thread for tonight.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I have to leave this thread because people are not reading what I am saying.
> 
> Humans are selfish. We are not always kind. At our core we are kind, but it is too much to expect all of us to access our core, for anyone to access their core. We can hope for that, but we cannot count on that. Society is cruel. It will never be purely positive, and it will always step on someone.
> 
> My being an idealist doesn't mean that I am oblivious to the harsh realities of the world. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- I know the harsh, sad truths of human nature. I've been a victim of them. I have been enveloped in a hell created by human hands. I know what darkness does to the human soul, and I know that there is too much darkness even in the most glowing of spirits. I know that we will never overcome this. Not in this lifetime.
> 
> But for me, _this fact is no reason not to strive for a better world_. There is too much darkness in the world, but that doesn't mean we should succumb to the darkness... It means we should fill ourselves with our own light and flash it out to the world in bursts. It means we must become love. It means we must heal as many hurts as we can, because while the hurts will never all be healed, that doesn't mean the little laughter that can rise will not overpower the cries in their own way.
> 
> I am leaving because this conversation is tiring me, as people are somehow reading what I am saying but somehow not comprehending it in their heads. You are saying that I am saying what I am not saying. This is what I am saying. Maybe you get it, maybe you don't, it doesn't matter. I'm not mad at anyone here personally, but I am always frustrated when my words are misunderstood and misunderstood and misunderstood.
> 
> I think I'll leave the thread for tonight.


Ah, well, I do understand your viewpoint, I was just wrapped up in my own head and explaining my own that I didn't address yours, I'm sorry. You're a better person than me for not succumbing, though, so well done. :happy:

You are right, though, I'm not really comprehending what you're saying, but I do understand it. I just have to remain on my own path, cause it's how my life has gone since that time. :typingneko:


----------



## Persephone Soul

This may be the wrong time (or place) to say this, but I just look at it as...

Maybe if everyone stopped looking in other people's yard, and start fixing their own lawn. ... maybe the block will look better...? No?

We're too preoccupied with how Jerry next door, is growing his cherry tree, that WE neglect OUR own gardenias. Soon me and Jerry are fighting over HIS tree, and by the time I tend MY flowers, Tom is already there, pickin and prodding at them... why? Because I was neglecting them, and he needed to "do something" about it. Meanwhile, Sarah is noticing the lack of care to TOM'S rose bush.. and is tending that for him... so on and so forth.

Everyone, just stay in your own damn yard. Lol


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> This may be the wrong time (or place) to say this, but I just look at it as...
> 
> Maybe if everyone stopped looking in other people's yard, and start fixing their own lawn. ... maybe the block will look better...? No?


Stop making mountains out of molehills, right? :wink: A rational idea, except by that notion, you assume everyone else does the same thing. :happy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may be the wrong time (or place) to say this, but I just look at it as...
> 
> Maybe if everyone stopped looking in other people's yard, and start fixing their own lawn. ... maybe the block will look better...? No?
> 
> 
> 
> Stop making mountains out of molehills, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A rational idea, except by that notion, you assume everyone else does the same thing.
Click to expand...


I edited that comment btw...

But, yeah... pretty much. It is just a domino effect, yuh know? Maybe one day, we will make the dominos go in reverse, and mind our own business . I am no talking about things that are of any harm to people of course. If someone is being raped, uh, lets not rally for raped women... lets step in, protect her, and get the authorities to take over. Pray for them, and move on.

Idk... my own idealism, tends to be a little far fetched to others sometimes.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> I edited that comment btw...
> 
> But, yeah... pretty much. It is just. Domino effect, yuh no. Maybe one day, will make the dominos go in reverse, and mind our own business . I am no talking about things that are of any harm to people of course. If someone is being raped, uh, lets not rally for raped women... lets step in, protect her, and get the authorities to take over. Pray for them, and move on.
> 
> Idk... my own idealism, tends to be a little far fetched to others sometimes.


Oh, I know. That's a nice point of view, if isolated. If someone's in danger, of course I'd help them, but discussing the theoretical stuff like I see LGBT doing is tiring to me.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Agreed.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I have a confession to make, guys. But I don't know if I should. ..


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> @Oswin you enjoy being whistled at? Bothers me. Disrespectful in my opinion.
> 
> I like flirting sure, but to walk across the street, and be demanded I provide numbers or to have your sticky hands on me? I'm a stranger on the street, I don't know you, and I don't like feeling as if my worth is just looks. Not as if I'm never vain or anything. I just don't like being viewed as the pretty lady on the street; as a decoration. Especially when women typically do not catcall. Reeks of some dominance.
> 
> The victim mentality I agree can be a crutch when you don't do something about it. Slactivism is rampant. I'm trying to come up with ways to put my ideology to use rather than wear it on my sleeve.
> 
> SJWs can have decent points; I agree that wearing a bindi is a no no. Most of them are just... far out of reality with unrealistic expectations. Doesn't make their arguments convincing, that's for sure.
> @Avalnoah You get the sense most of them have never read feminist literature.
> 
> The best part about feminist literature is it allows you to realize that feminism can be broad.
> 
> It seems like tumblr feminism is a one size fits all type of feminism, and if you don't fit into that category, you're not a feminist.


I don't want anyone's sticky hands on me but I don't see the problem with being whistled at? I mean...oh no, someone thinks I'm attractive? Then you give them a sharp look, walk on...compliment received, day continued, everyone's happy) Never really got why people wouldn't want that.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> I have a confession to make, guys. But I don't know if I should. ..


Well, it's entirely your choice, though we may be able to help. :wink:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Avalnoah said:


> Idealism without pragmatism is useless.
> 
> Thinking you can make the world perfect in the sense that absolutely everyone will be kind to one another is pointless idealism. You're only going to waste your singular existence achieving nothing.
> 
> Thinking that you can change the conditions of women in places like the Middle East through action is also idealism because it is very unlikely you will, but at least through your action you could make a difference in people's lives.
> 
> I think my problem with some idealists is that their goals are often poorly designed, ambiguous and unrealistic.
> They never achieve their goals because they are literally impossible and ultimately words without actions are meaningless. You can't change the foundation of humanity so that *everyone* will be kind, that's just impossible.
> 
> If I were to state a good example of an idealist, I would say Elon Musk. His goal is to revolutionize the space and technology industry, something that is very unlikely to happen but not impossible. His businesses have done immense work and even if he doesn't succeed in revolutionizing energy industry, his effects will still be seen.
> 
> I think my biggest problem is that too many people live in Weltschmerz and that annoys me greatly.


Not everyone can be kind, I agree.

But if we form a bad ass brigade, a mission, to change our perceptions and get people to think differently, we can accomplish a lot. Tolerance in this generation has gone up. Are we perfectly tolerant? No. Will we ever get to a sector of perfect tolerance? No. Has civil and social rights activism done buckloads to alter our perceptions of the oppressed? Absolutely. 

I would rather achieve a nearly invisible glimmer of difference than none at all.

I apologize if this is not what you mean.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I like it too. I like the male attention, but from afar.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a confession to make, guys. But I don't know if I should. ..
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it's entirely your choice, though we may be able to help.
Click to expand...


*deep breath*

Okay, here it goes...

I have only read the first HP book from start to finish, and.... I have only seen the first 3 movies.

*exhale* phewww, I feel better now.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> I don't want anyone's sticky hands on me but I don't see the problem with being whistled at? I mean...oh no, someone thinks I'm attractive? Then you give them a sharp look, walk on...compliment received, day continued, everyone's happy) Never really got why people wouldn't want that.


Because I'm a stranger, minding my own business. It feels intrusive. Hasn't it raised your eyebrows that it's mostly men who whistle anyway?

I don't mean I dislike being flirted with or called attractive. I don't like feeling objectified. Though objectification is a sensitive topic and I'm loose about it's implications and meaning. When I feel objectified depends upon the context. 

No, Catcalling is NOT A Compliment, and Here's Why

I don't necessarily agree with the way this article is framed, but I agree with the overall message.

It's a conflicting topic. I just don't find it flattering. I don't know you, I didn't initiate it, I'm minding my own business... it's creepy to me.


----------



## Barakiel

Huh, maybe I'm not an Se dom after all. :whoa:


----------



## Barakiel

@fair phantom, you have no idea how bittersweet it is to watch Fate/Zero again. :kitteh:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> See with ME, I was raised this way as well. It was just a few years ago that I started questioning EVERYTHING. Not so much anything in particular, just everything. I decided to actually get out my Bible and read it IN CONTEXT! OMG IN CONTEXT! I have realigned my morals, beliefs, and 'walk', in what I feel God designed in the first place. I even took my mom on the journey with me, and she "once was blind, but now she shes".
> 
> My only point to this, is that I didn't let one way of teachings, ruin the rest for me. Instead I began at the root and ended up, in a beautiful green tree. Whereas before, I was surrounded by rotten apples.
> 
> BUT, hey... I'm not here to be "self-righteous". I just had to share my experience.


My mother went to church off and on. It was my aunt that raised me to be Christian. She was a fundamentalist, if you couldn't already tell. When I finally told my mother these stories, she was actually pissed. lol.

I find mainstream religion to be so indoctrinated. It's so nice to see someone open to creating their own framework. I actually did the same at a young age. It was only Hell that I was serious and radical about, because fear is a drug.

Nah you're not self righteous. I'm the atheist after all. Well.... I'm open to the possibility, but it is unlikely. He he he.


----------



## Persephone Soul

There's still hope for me to convert you! Muahahaha jk jk

Well, nite, y'all. Zzz


----------



## Deadly Decorum

ElliCat said:


> If they were really oppressed, they'd fight off their oppressors and get their life in order, and telling them their problems aren't that big a deal is going to help them overcome them.


I agree undermining people's issues is not helpful.

However sometimes the oppressed are trapped. There's not much they can do for many reasons, so I don't agree in that regard. I suppose you could argue they would; Susan B Anthony, Harriet Tubman and Martin Luther King are examples of the oppressed fighting against oppression.

If those people wouldn't of taken a stand, the oppressed who could not fight would have had no chance. In fact, there is often danger in terms of fighting against your oppressor. Violence. Threats. Arrests. Hell, MLK was shot. It certainly wasn't easy for slaves to flee or fight their oppressors. So no, I don't agree that the oppressed will fight against their oppressors if truly oppressed. If that were true, we wouldn't need civil rights.

I like what you had to say though. 

I am also too serious for this thread.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> I agree undermining people's issues is not helpful.
> 
> However sometimes the oppressed are trapped. There's not much they can do for many reasons, so I don't agree in that regard. I suppose you could argue they would; Susan B Anthony, Harriet Tubman and Martin Luther King are examples of the oppressed fighting against oppression.
> 
> These examples I cited were oppressed people fighting against oppression, but if they wouldn't of taken a stand, the oppressed who could not fight would have had no chance. In fact, there is often danger in terms of fighting against your oppressor. Violence. Threats. Arrests. Hell, MLK was shot. It certainly wasn't easy for slaves to flee or fight their oppressors. So no, I don't agree that the oppressed will fight against their oppressors if truly oppressed. If that were true, we wouldn't need civil rights.
> 
> I like what you had to say though.
> 
> I am also too serious for this thread.


Yes, you are too serious for this thread. But I appreciate you enlightening me nonetheless. :typingneko:


----------



## Immolate

I feel like I dodged a bullet or two by falling asleep. SJW, catcalling, HP, religion, idealism? Sleep beckons me again.
@hoopla... I have hopes...

Goodnight, world, PerC.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I feel like I dodged a bullet or two by falling asleep. SJW, catcalling, HP, religion, idealism? Sleep beckons me again.
> 
> @hoopla... I have hopes...
> 
> Goodnight, world, PerC.


Why would you ever want to dodge theological conflicts? They're really damn fun. :cheers2: Although I did get unusually heated from my discussion with @alittlebear, odd for me.


----------



## Dangerose

Ugh, SugarPlum said something and for some reason I thought I'd go looking on my Facebook page for representative conversations with my friends...I hate the Internet so much. All my stupid conversations get saved there...my whole teenage years are so, so, cringeworthy. I wish I lived in a world where once I said something dumb I could just forget about it, and not have a record. Dear Lord, I thought I was soo witty...:ssad:
*deleting all conversations prior to last year. Though probably even this year's conversations will look bad in a few years. This comment will look terrible I know. Ugh.*


----------



## Adena

@Oswin have you seen the Doctor Who finale? I need to share my feelings with someone D:


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> @Oswin have you seen the Doctor Who finale? I need to share my feelings with someone D:


You mean Season 8? That happened a while back. Or the Christmas Special? :wink:


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> You mean Season 8? That happened a while back. Or the Christmas Special? :wink:


Season 8, I only now got around to see it and I just cried too much.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> Ugh, SugarPlum said something and for some reason I thought I'd go looking on my Facebook page for representative conversations with my friends...I hate the Internet so much. All my stupid conversations get saved there...my whole teenage years are so, so, cringeworthy. I wish I lived in a world where once I said something dumb I could just forget about it, and not have a record. Dear Lord, I thought I was soo witty...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *deleting all conversations prior to last year. Though probably even this year's conversations will look bad in a few years. This comment will look terrible I know. Ugh.*



WHAT DID I SAY?! lol

And yeah, i know what you mean...


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> Season 8, I only now got around to see it and I just cried too much.


Pretty damn bittersweet, gotta say. Missy was cool, though gotta say, I still prefer John Simm's Master. :wink: Osgood though... Why.


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> @Oswin have you seen the Doctor Who finale? I need to share my feelings with someone D:


Yes I have)
It was intense) the death of that one person and the betrayal of the other person....:sadcloud:
I'm like one of the 3 people in the world who ships the Doctor and Clara though so Last Christmas made me quite happy)


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> Pretty damn bittersweet, gotta say. Missy was cool, though gotta say, I still prefer John Simm's Master. :wink: Osgood though... Why.


Very bittersweet. Missy was pretty cool ahahaha

* *




I cried so much over Danny and Clara, but the thing that has wrecked me completely was the fact that even as a Cyberman Kate's father saved her from dying ;_; only by tinking about it now I start crying


----------



## Adena

Oswin said:


> Yes I have)
> It was intense) the death of that one person and the betrayal of the other person....:sadcloud:
> I'm like one of the 3 people in the world who ships the Doctor and Clara though so Last Christmas made me quite happy)


lol but Doctor+River= <3  though I can see it. But Danny </3 I loved him so much.


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> Very bittersweet. Missy was pretty cool ahahaha
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cried so much over Danny and Clara, but the thing that has wrecked me completely was the fact that even as a Cyberman Kate's father saved her from dying ;_; only by tinking about it now I start crying


I thought the Season 6 finale was sadder, with the whole Doctor having to die and River having to kill him. :ball:


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> I thought the Season 6 finale was sadder, with the whole Doctor having to die and River having to kill him. :ball:


DON'T GET ME STARTED.

Doctor Who makes me cry, always.


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> lol but Doctor+River= <3  though I can see it. But Danny </3 I loved him so much.


I kinda hate River...I don't even know why, I just always...want her to get off the screen)
Honestly, Clara's the first companion I really liked or related to at _all._ I was only really able to get into Doctor Who when I watched her episodes...and then I was able to go back and enjoy previous seasons. Martha's my second-favorite)
I just can't stand Rose or Amy


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> I don't like Fe because I see it as the all pleasing function, considering other people before yourself, what a crap way to live. Other people be damned I'm doing what I want, and if it manages to help them, brilliant.
> 
> I've actually never seen either of those series to the end. Now, Angel Beats, on the other hand, that's brutal. :wink: As for other series, I've recently teared up at Fate/Zero, though that's cause I know the fate of the characters... and it's really depressing. :dry:


I mean, I like the fact it is often used to discern what will make the external environment comfortable for people and then try to make it so (I can't work out how to do that, even if I think to try). Of course there are negative sides, but that's true of all the functions. 

Oh no, Clannad: After Story is about 100x more upsetting than Angel Beats, in my opinion (although Angel Beats was tragic and the graduation was just...). I think in After Story they really managed to make it 'real' and you could just feel the characters' emotions in a very personal way. It's one of my all-time favourite series.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> I don't like Fe because I see it as the all pleasing function, considering other people before yourself, what a crap way to live. Other people be damned I'm doing what I want, and if it manages to help them, brilliant.
> I've actually never seen either of those series to the end. Now, Angel Beats, on the other hand, that's brutal. :wink: As for other series, I've recently teared up at Fate/Zero, though that's cause I know the fate of the characters... and it's really depressing. :dry:


I think Fe isnt people pleasing, its more gaining happiness from seeing others being happy, which is a great thing! Ive not met a healthy Fe user offline so cant say from experience what theyre like in person, but from what Ive seen on here it's very much that they enjoy making other people happy. 
I'd like to be able to do what I want but am restrained by a sense of responsibility to people...
I didn't get overly upset with Clannad/Kanon, but almost cried playing Journey.


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I mean, I like the fact it is often used to discern what will make the external environment comfortable for people and then try to make it so (I can't work out how to do that, even if I think to try). Of course there are negative sides, but that's true of all the functions.


Haha, fair enough, I can understand that. I love how Fi can be so sure of itself and believe in its morality to the end, really admirable, imo. :wink:



laurie17 said:


> Oh no, Clannad: After Story is about 100x more upsetting than Angel Beats, in my opinion (although Angel Beats was tragic and the graduation was just...). I think in After Story they really managed to make it 'real' and you could just feel the characters' emotions in a very personal way. It's one of my all-time favourite series.


Well, I only barely finished Clannad, and it _was_ sad, but I think Angel Beats hit me harder cause, well, the art is amazing. Hell, the character art seems like a Ufotable production, it's that good. :laughing: You've probably guessed, but my one of my all-time favorites is Fate/Zero, along with Code Geass and a few others. :cheers2:


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I think Fe isnt people pleasing, its more gaining happiness from seeing others being happy, which is a great thing! Ive not met a healthy Fe user offline so cant say from experience what theyre like in person, but from what Ive seen on here it's very much that they enjoy making other people happy.
> I'd like to be able to do what I want but am restrained by a sense of responsibility to people...
> I didn't get overly upset with Clannad/Kanon, but almost cried playing Journey.


Ah, that's interesting. I've met a high Fe user, and let me tell you, they can be really preachy. :frustrating: Ah yes, I hear Journey is pretty good, if a bit ambiguous. :wink:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Ah, that's interesting. I've met a high Fe user, and let me tell you, they can be really preachy. :frustrating: Ah yes, I hear Journey is pretty good, if a bit ambiguous. :wink:


I think all types can be pretty preachy! I think the only difference is that introverted dom types are more likely to keep it to themselves unless approached by others.
It's a great game, I loved the ambiguity!


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

laurie17 said:


> Well, I mostly just see Te going on (extraverted judging is always most apparent). Say you were given the choice of a few different places you could travel to - 1. a holiday resort on a small inhabited island of your choosing, right next to a beach, with inclusive breakfast, 2. a trekking holiday around a large foreign country of your choosing, going around the most famous places and staying in hostels, 3. a camping trip around a country of your choice, where you would live in nature for the holiday.
> 
> Try to answer in a train of thought sort of way so it's completely unedited (otherwise it'll just be Te again). Try to include your initial reactions to each, what you think about going on each one and which you would choose and why.


Mind if I answer this too? I'm still not totally accepting that I'm a Te-Fi user, figured I might as well check it out. Plus I need to purge my brain and distract myself right now.


1. Meh, boring. Honestly, I'd probably get bored at a resort. At the very least, it would be my last choice; if it were the only choice I'd honestly pass it up. 

2. THIS ONE PLEASE! Yes! So much exploring, so many new things to experience and learn and see, even your living space changes. Now _this_ is travelling!

3. As someone who could definitely use to unplug, this one might be more difficult, but it would be my second choice. From the sound of it it's just a more rustic version of option 2....usually that doesn't appeal to me much, though it could be fun in its own right. Perhaps if I was more of an outdoorswoman I could be more appreciative. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I think all types can be pretty preachy! I think the only difference is that introverted dom types are more likely to keep it to themselves unless approached by others.
> It's a great game, I loved the ambiguity!


Well, depends what they preach about, tbh. 

Yeah, ambiguity is sometimes good for games, hell, I'm a big fan of Dragon Age 2, and that's one of the most ambiguous games of the decade. :dry: Still gotta try Journey, though, apparently it's highly acclaimed. :ball:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Haha, fair enough, I can understand that. I love how Fi can be so sure of itself and believe in its morality to the end, really admirable, imo. :wink:
> 
> 
> Well, I only barely finished Clannad, and it _was_ sad, but I think Angel Beats hit me harder cause, well, the art is amazing. Hell, the character art seems like a Ufotable production, it's that good. :laughing: You've probably guessed, but my one of my all-time favorites is Fate/Zero, along with Code Geass and a few others. :cheers2:


Haha, I often think Fi-Te comes across as more sure of itself than it is, probably because the user extraverts through Te. I may instinctively know if something is attractive/repulsive or valuable/not valuable, but when I question that (which I tend to do), there is a lot of uncertainty.

Ah, I did like the art of Angel Beats, but I think the animation in Clannad was of a higher standard (as far as I can recall), plus the interesting 'camera angles' and colours they used (probably the film student in me creeping out). Fate/Zero does look really good. Maybe I'll put Last Exile to one side for a while and watch that instead (I don't feel like watching Last Exile - I'm holding a grudge because the start was so good and now it's going downhill). Code Geass was amazing - probably one of the most unique series I've seen since FMA (in terms of big-name anime).


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Well, depends what they preach about, tbh.
> 
> Yeah, ambiguity is sometimes good for games, hell, I'm a big fan of Dragon Age 2, and that's one of the most ambiguous games of the decade. :dry: Still gotta try Journey, though, apparently it's highly acclaimed. :ball:


Very true, I dont like vegan preachers because a lot of the time theyre very wrong with what theyre saying (Im veggie but am fine for people to eat meat round me whereas some friends of mine are vegan and do the whole "an animal DIED" thing...)
You definitely need to! Im planning on playing Flower as well soon! Also Dark Souls...:boxing:


----------



## owlet

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Mind if I answer this too? I'm still not totally accepting that I'm a Te-Fi user, figured I might as well check it out. Plus I need to purge my brain and distract myself right now.
> 
> 
> 1. Meh, boring. Honestly, I'd probably get bored at a resort. At the very least, it would be my last choice; if it were the only choice I'd honestly pass it up.
> 
> 2. THIS ONE PLEASE! Yes! So much exploring, so many new things to experience and learn and see, even your living space changes. Now _this_ is travelling!
> 
> 3. As someone who could definitely use to unplug, this one might be more difficult, but it would be my second choice. From the sound of it it's just a more rustic version of option 2....usually that doesn't appeal to me much, though it could be fun in its own right. Perhaps if I was more of an outdoorswoman I could be more appreciative. :laughing:


Of course, no problem! :ghost: It's more of a test for Perceiving functions, but I'll try for the Judging ones too!

(I'll put my response in spoiler tags, so it's doesn't influence shiny)


* *




I think that a preference for 2 indicates a strong (by strong I mean dom/aux) extraverted perceiving function - either Se or Ne - because of the contact with the external environment. Ne would love the idea, but may not like the actuality of it (i.e. no bathrooms, having to generally experience a lot of discomfort (lower Si) and so on) whereas Se would prefer it in actuality, but may not judge the potential of the idea until it was physically there. 
What do you think of higher Ne or Se?

Say you had to go on one of these holidays with friends - how would you choose?


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> Haha, I often think Fi-Te comes across as more sure of itself than it is, probably because the user extraverts through Te. I may instinctively know if something is attractive/repulsive or valuable/not valuable, but when I question that (which I tend to do), there is a lot of uncertainty.
> 
> Ah, I did like the art of Angel Beats, but I think the animation in Clannad was of a higher standard (as far as I can recall), plus the interesting 'camera angles' and colours they used (probably the film student in me creeping out). Fate/Zero does look really good. Maybe I'll put Last Exile to one side for a while and watch that instead (I don't feel like watching Last Exile - I'm holding a grudge because the start was so good and now it's going downhill). Code Geass was amazing - probably one of the most unique series I've seen since FMA (in terms of big-name anime).


Yeah, people have said the Fi-Te thing only being confident because of lower Te, but it's still damn impressive. :dry: I can't help but admire determination like that, maybe it's just me, though.

Yeah, the animation wasn't great in Angel Beats, but when your art reminds me of Ufotable, the gods of budget, I can forgive that. :laughing: Speaking of Ufotable, you want good animation? Yes. So many times, *YES.* People have called it the best animated series besides the sequel, and they're not kidding. :wink: I'll have to read up on Last Exile to see how it is, but from your words, I'm not holding out hope. Code Geass, however, is freaking brilliant. Dub all the way. :kitteh:


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> Very true, I dont like vegan preachers because a lot of the time theyre very wrong with what theyre saying (Im veggie but am fine for people to eat meat round me whereas some friends of mine are vegan and do the whole "an animal DIED" thing...)
> You definitely need to! Im planning on playing Flower as well soon! Also Dark Souls...:boxing:


Vegans... we actually had a debate about this a while back, I think vegans are stupid, but hey, you have your own reasons. :wink: For me though... it's food. Doesn't matter whether it was alive or not, I like how meat tastes. 

Ergh, Dark Souls, apparently it has the framerate of a small budget film. :frustrating:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Vegans... we actually had a debate about this a while back, I think vegans are stupid, but hey, you have your own reasons. :wink: For me though... it's food. Doesn't matter whether it was alive or not, I like how meat tastes.
> 
> Ergh, Dark Souls, apparently it has the framerate of a small budget film. :frustrating:


I couldnt be vegan because it'd ruin my health, so stick to eating fish and veggies (dont like proper meat and couldnt kill it myself). I dont think theyre stupid, but maybe there needs to be better education on the risks and also that veganism can be very damaging to the planet (i.e. soy farming destroys so much of the rainforest).
It's very beautiful and very hard!


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, people have said the Fi-Te thing only being confident because of lower Te, but it's still damn impressive. :dry: I can't help but admire determination like that, maybe it's just me, though.
> 
> Yeah, the animation wasn't great in Angel Beats, but when your art reminds me of Ufotable, the gods of budget, I can forgive that. :laughing: Speaking of Ufotable, you want good animation? Yes. So many times, *YES.* People have called it the best animated series besides the sequel, and they're not kidding. :wink: I'll have to read up on Last Exile to see how it is, but from your words, I'm not holding out hope. Code Geass, however, is freaking brilliant. Dub all the way. :kitteh:


Haha, determination can be good, but also a lot of self-pressure to uphold those personal values, or feel guilty forever.

I'll definitely have to look it up then! Good animation and art always improves a series and, if it's already got a good story and characters, it can move up to being amazing (I mean, if there isn't good animation, I might as well read the manga). I did like the dub of Code Geass, but ended up watching it half sub, half dub. Gankutsuou was one of those series with a better dub too, actually.


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> I couldnt be vegan because it'd ruin my health, so stick to eating fish and veggies (dont like proper meat and couldnt kill it myself). I dont think theyre stupid, but maybe there needs to be better education on the risks and also that veganism can be very damaging to the planet (i.e. soy farming destroys so much of the rainforest).
> It's very beautiful and very hard!


Haha, fair enough, I just can't understand it, since I've always considered animals lesser than humans. You can't talk to them, so why not? :wink:

Dark Souls... beautiful? Odd choice of words. Though I'd say that Dragon Age 2 is beautiful in its ambiguous storytelling and awesome characters. :laughing: In terms of visuals, though, Bioshock Infinite. Just, yes. :typingneko:


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> Haha, determination can be good, but also a lot of self-pressure to uphold those personal values, or feel guilty forever.
> 
> I'll definitely have to look it up then! Good animation and art always improves a series and, if it's already got a good story and characters, it can move up to being amazing (I mean, if there isn't good animation, I might as well read the manga). I did like the dub of Code Geass, but ended up watching it half sub, half dub. Gankutsuou was one of those series with a better dub too, actually.


Ah yes, understandable. Always have my ear if you need a listener, cause hey, I'm a pretty good one. :laughing:

Oh yes, it's pretty much perfect, imo, aside from the bit of a slow start. Still, awesome dub, awesome story, awesome-ish characters, out-freaking-standing art and animation, therefore, amazing. :kitteh: Code Geass is the same way, as well as Trigun, though the latter two don't have the best visuals for this day and age. :dry: Haven't seen Gankutsuou, though, hear its fantastic, especially with the Count.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

laurie17 said:


> I think that a preference for 2 indicates a strong (by strong I mean dom/aux) extraverted perceiving function - either Se or Ne - because of the contact with the external environment. Ne would love the idea, but may not like the actuality of it (i.e. no bathrooms, having to generally experience a lot of discomfort (lower Si) and so on) whereas Se would prefer it in actuality, but may not judge the potential of the idea until it was physically there.
> What do you think of higher Ne or Se?
> 
> Say you had to go on one of these holidays with friends - how would you choose?


Oh, it was for testing Perception. 

Um, Pe functions are what I figure are my _weakest_, actually. Some thinking recently made the think that I have terrible Ne, and every test and set of descriptions reveals that I have almost no Se to speak of. Though I actually relate to the Ne description - like the idea but might not like the actuality (though I'm pretty adaptable and always have been, making do comes easily, and I have a fairly good sense of how much discomfort I could actually tolerate).

That said, I have considered IXFP for my type. But my lousy Pe, though. 

If I were travelling with people...honestly I'd be a little less enthusiastic about option 2: travelling with people is a burden, especially with such an open-ended itinerary. See, I'm not exactly good at asserting myself, and I know I would basically get dragged along wherever my companions wanted to go, and then spend the day frustrated that I didn't get to see what I wanted to see, or spend as much time as I wanted in one place or another. 

The resort sounds boring with or without people, so I'd actually go for option 3, camping. I Was meh on it before, and I alluded to not being much of a camper in the first place, so having other people to fall back on might make it a bit more comfortable.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

tine said:


> I think Fe isnt people pleasing, its more gaining happiness from seeing others being happy, which is a great thing! Ive not met a healthy Fe user offline so cant say from experience what theyre like in person, but from what Ive seen on here it's very much that they enjoy making other people happy.
> I'd like to be able to do what I want but am restrained by a sense of responsibility to people...
> I didn't get overly upset with Clannad/Kanon, but almost cried playing Journey.


Sorry I'm trying to catch up!

At first I saw this post and smiled,

But isn't this like basic empathy? I thought getting happy when others were happy was empathy. Maybe getting happy because strangers are happy is more in Fe territory, but even then doesn't Fi do that?

I don't know.


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> Oh my gosh, people, I think I figured it out! You guys'll have to tell me if I'm right or not, but I think I am in fact ENFJ.
> which is exactly what I thought when I first started typology
> 
> Fe: Concern with people. Always following what people were doing. When I was small, when I wrote stories...it was almost all dialogue. The thing that matters to me in a TV show: the people. The relationships between the people and the people themselves. Without that it's just dead to me. Fe is what makes me care about how people view me, why I was so insufferably pretentious in my high school years, and I believe my value system works in something of a Fe way. If I were queen of the land, I would want to enforce a standard of morality and I think it would be done in a Fe way. I believe Fe also explains some of my worst behavior -- how I feed on others' emotions, how when I am bored/lonely I will start fights, how I will push people for a reaction, how I can be extremely jealous and snobbish. I also think my insecurities are Fe insecurities, not Fi insecurities. I keep saying I think I might be Fi, but I think deep down I have known I'm a Fe user...just not the most typical Fe user. Fi just doesn't seem right, even though it may look right. I may not seem like the typical extrovert or Fe user but I believe that I am one all the same. I do _not_ like to stay at home all day; I simply cannot. I don't like to be away from other people. A lot of the time I am, but I think it's for Fe reasons.
> 
> Ni. Less certain on this but...let's see...the thing that sealed the deal for me was when I realized that Ni is really preoccupied with time, and...this is what I am. I don't like to think too much about death, but I know I need to prepare for it (hopefully not soon). I'm constantly aware that life is only so long, and we have to make the most of it. I'm terrified of leading a meaningless life (I mean, I know most people are, but...) I get so frustrated when it seems that people don't seem to know they're alive, or that time is passing...you can't live so complacently. You have to a. appreciate the eternity that exists within one moment and b. work to accomplish the most in the amount of time that you have. This includes smaller spaces of time than one whole life, and greater spaces as well, eras. I'm so aware that if we're driving from Point A to Point B that we're going to have about 10 minutes to talk...so if we want to cover one certain subject, we can't spend 5 minutes talking about the weather. Which, you'd think everyone would be clued into that, but oddly I often feel like I'm the _only_ person who gets that.
> 
> And then, you know, symbolism and all that stuff...I think I have that Ni too. I just don't know how to explain it right now. I think a lot of it I have thought of as Si...and, who knows, it could be...archetypes and such...but for the moment I have decided that they are _not_, that it is in fact Ni, because...I'm not sure, I just don't think it's Si.


Doesn't indicate Si or Ni.



> edit: should've added, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, one of my big struggles in college, and the reason I dropped out, was because I didn't feel like it was leading to a goal, it just felt totally random, like I was wasting years of my life doing nothing. I hadn't figured out where I was going, so I just...didn't know what I was doing, it was like...if I had a dollar coin for every year of my life and that was all the money I had in the world...it was like spending some of those coins on candy bars or...garbage. And there was just a feeling that I was suffocating, trying to put the cart before the horse, going through something without a purpose.
> 
> Two typical things that will make me seem fake-Ni: Honestly, so many people are surprised by my outlook in life...I definitely think I think differently from my family and friends, actually my ENTJ friend and I understand some things that no one else does, really? Which...I know everyone feels that way, but it really makes sense to me that I would have a somewhat unusual function, since I confuse people a lot with my viewpoints))
> 
> Also, 'predicting the future'...I don't, but I have a lot of gut feelings that are good. Though...maybe they're more Fe-ish. There were two people at my church who were running a con. The one lady was pretending she had cancer so they could collect donations...I told my mother from the start that I didn't believe she was really sick (she thought I was being mean), when everyone was saying who nice they were and how inspiring their story was...I was just thinking that I didn't trust them, and...then it turned out they'd been pilfering money off the church, ended up stealing a whole bunch and leaving, they were actually con artists, there was a whole trial and everything. And the priest at that church...I remember just always feeling that his soul was sick...and he turned out to be really corrupted and awful. (edit: not an awful person, honestly, he was the nicest guy...just, his soul was sick, as I'd said). There's other incidents like this. There was a sex offender teaching at my high school...I refused to take that class. I just tend to have good gut instincts.


That is more like Ni, although ... I get vibes about people too. But I'm less sure in articulating what they are about than just saying, "I don't like or trust them," and then later I find out my instincts were correct. But I didn't say up front that they were a thief / abusive /etc. That seems to be the difference between Ni/Ne in terms of sensing and predicting things. Ni is sure. Ne isn't.



> Se. Ah, just some typical Se things, somewhat touched with Fe *(I like having expensive stuff, I want to have the best, original material, brand names, no knock-offs..which I feel morally wrong for, it's a struggle)*. You know, I like food, I like things to look good, I like listening to music loudly, etc. Nothing out of the norm. I have some feelings of...just loving the world, driving through the country and listening to music and watching birds and feeling a bit like a little bird myself) But I didn't really like nature as a child, I remember the first time I realized that it existed and was beautiful -- I was visiting Tonto Bridge, and I happened to look over at the view, and it just blew me away -- I can really remember every detail of how that looked and felt (I know, I know, that's a really Si sentence but just let me do my thing), I was like, "Wow, God, good job", beforehand I had just...never really known why people were always going on about flowers and trees and stuff, I thought it was really boring of them, but then, I suddenly got it and just fell in love). And I require action. I know that sitting around thinking about things doesn't do any good. But my instinct is to sit around thinking about things.


Bolded is very normal for high Se. Si and Ne don't really care. I'd rather have a bargain than a brand name, since brand names are worthless to me.

ENFJ? Maybe. Probably. 



hoopla said:


> @angelcat and I are the only true ISFJs for life. <3


Indeed. It's an exclusive club. People must be invited into it. LOL


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Indeed. It's an exclusive club. People must be invited into it. LOL


/still pouting/


----------



## Deadly Decorum

tine said:


> Very true, I dont like vegan preachers because a lot of the time theyre very wrong with what theyre saying (Im veggie but am fine for people to eat meat round me whereas some friends of mine are vegan and do the whole "an animal DIED" thing...)
> You definitely need to! Im planning on playing Flower as well soon! Also Dark Souls...:boxing:


People do not realize that preaching actually detracts people from their cause rather than convincing them to support it.

I've been veggie/vegan on and off and am currently contemplating returning. Factory farms and culling make me cringe. If you want to eat meat, that's your right. That was always my stance.

People have a right to know about where their foods comes from. PETA approaches this topic in the wrong way. Their take on Cooking Mama was fun though.

God you guys are all having fun and I come across as some buzzkill hippie activist.

I haven't slept all night. This hasn't happened in awhile. Oh FML. So glad I'm not working 2day.

@alittlebear No one can keep up.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> Well, I mostly just see Te going on (extraverted judging is always most apparent). Say you were given the choice of a few different places you could travel to - 1. a holiday resort on a small inhabited island of your choosing, right next to a beach, with inclusive breakfast, 2. a trekking holiday around a large foreign country of your choosing, going around the most famous places and staying in hostels, 3. a camping trip around a country of your choice, where you would live in nature for the holiday.
> 
> Try to answer in a train of thought sort of way so it's completely unedited (otherwise it'll just be Te again). Try to include your initial reactions to each, what you think about going on each one and which you would choose and why.


I'm even more tired now than I was last night after a few hours of sleep. I don't know how it happens but it is my curse.

:ssad:

Let's see. I don't care for holiday resorts, much less inclusive breakfast. Who cares? A small island of my choosing sounds very nice, especially if I'm within walking distance of the ocean, but the problem here is the fact it's an inhabited island. I would prefer complete isolation. I want to feel like the only person in the world and enjoy the island, and when I say enjoy the island I mean sit on the shoreline, mostly from dusk to dawn, staring out into the ocean. I've always been drawn to the ocean because... how do I explain this. It's a reminder of the enormity of it all. Staring across the ocean is like looking up at the sky and trying to perceive beyond the blue or connecting stars with your eyes and knowing they look teeny tiny but you're even smaller than they are. (Now I'm thinking about stargazing and wondering if I'm looking at the ghost of a star or a living star.) Even the water is a reminder of where I fit because the ups and downs of the waves are the product of, let's say, the butterfly effect and the butterfly is the moon. Anyway, this is all gibber jabber, the point is the ocean inspires introspection, perspective, and awe.

Next, a trekking holiday around a foreign country of my choosing... my immediate reaction is so much walking and also swarms of bodies. I'm having a hard time with this one... I see myself choosing a country depending on specific sights I want to see or experience. When I think "famous places," I think historical sites, museums, memorials, and ultimately, tourists. What do I want to get out of this visit? Do I want to experience the country's history? Its culture? Maybe something more authentic like a country's natural beauty. You'll have to forgive me but I went looking for images because I would love to visit places like this because wow earth is amazing:









Reed Flute Caves









Marble Caves









Pamukkale Thermal Springs

The third option is the least appealing because although nature is beautiful and I would take in that beauty firsthand, I'm not very good at taking care of myself. I'm so clumsy I have several scars on my knees because I always, ALWAYS, bump into things, especially my bed. My favorite scar is a reminder of the time I lost a bit of my knee because I'm an idiot. Also, I have a terrible time with direction and spatial awareness. I'm positive I would get lost and turn to dust before someone came to the rescue. I just do not see myself enjoying or surviving a backpacking holiday in a foreign country unless I had someone with me who would know how to keep me alive and lucid. On the other hand, if I could settle into a small cabin somewhere and spend my holiday as some kind of hermit, the ordeal doesn't sound so bad.

That's all because I'm exhausted.



P.S. @Barakiel I've been meaning to ask you about DA2 and how you type the characters, especially Anders. Do tell.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> P.S. @Barakiel I've been meaning to ask you about DA2 and how you type the characters, especially Anders. Do tell.


Biggest INFP to ever INFP, seriously. But sure, why wouldn't I want to talk about one of my favorite games? :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Biggest INFP to ever INFP, seriously. But sure, why wouldn't I want to talk about one of my favorite games? :laughing:


True, very true, but does it hold true Pre-Justice? Hm... hm... no, yeah, you're right.

Fenris? Isabella is a sensor, definitely. Merrill is a lost cause. Varric?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

> People do not realize that preaching actually detracts people from their cause rather than convincing them to support it.


[spoiled for Christian talk]

* *





_Yes._ But for me, I get more riled up about this when it comes to expressions of Christianity. Genuinely get out there and care for people. Love them. Act differently, show kindness, show generosity, show consideration, be a Christian... and then help show people that you are able to have the strength you have because of God. Don't throw it in their faces, don't be another one of those accusatory Christians who likes to stand on their high and mighty soap box. Don't talk about God's love, _be God's love._

It's the same for veganism. It's the same for prolife movements (oh, gosh, the terrible pits the prolife movement has gotten itself stuck in). It's the same for... well, a lot of things. A rare few times yelling at people works -- with veganism, honestly, if someone yells at me about it and personally gives me a pamphlet... It might work on me - but usually it just... really does not. 

I get most upset when people do this to spread Christianity, though. Especially when the people who go out to evangelize are the same people who like to make fun of others, who think they're superior (_because_ of their faith, sigh), and who are still making fun of those who are different and even making fun of people who they obviously shouldn't, like people with disabilities. Those who come in through them... Hopefully they will see beyond the representative who brought them there, but a lot of them... don't. I don't know. I am pretty generally riled up about the way that some people do Christianity. (Hopefully this isn't too controversial of a topic.)




And @hoopla please sleep  Off days are good days to get well rested again ^^


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> True, very true, but does it hold true Pre-Justice? Hm... hm... no, yeah, you're right.
> 
> Fenris? Isabella is a sensor, definitely. Merrill is a lost cause. Varric?


Well, when I play Awakening, I'll tell you. :dry:

Fenris seemed like an INTJ to me. Isabella's ESTP, and a brilliantly awesome one. Huh, I liked Merrill, a good counterpart to Anders as another INFP. Varric has a *LOT* of Ne, so I'm gonna say ENTP. :happy:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Cooking Mama, The Unauthorized PETA Edition: Mama Kills Animals | PETA.org

Game of the century.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Cooking Mama, The Unauthorized PETA Edition: Mama Kills Animals | PETA.org
> 
> Game of the century.


Wasn't that game on the Wii? I remember my sister playing it, is all. :laughing:

ETA: Oh, it's a parody, my mistake. Might wanna actually get into the game before you comment, you moron. :dry:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla why did you do this to me


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, when I play Awakening, I'll tell you. :dry:
> 
> Fenris seemed like an INTJ to me. Isabella's ESTP, and a brilliantly awesome one. Huh, I liked Merrill, a good counterpart to Anders as another INFP. Varric has a *LOT* of Ne, so I'm gonna say ENTP. :happy:


Really? INTJ? 

Agreed on Isabella and Fenris I meant Varric wow I'm more tired than I realized. Merrill, I don't know. I suppose.

Also, Anders seemed more extroverted in Awakening, and he was constantly running away from the circle, even as a boy. He stopped once he met Karl, then started again when Karl was transferred to Kirkwall. Then Justice happened. Before Justice, he didn't really care about helping the mages, he was just out to protect himself. In DA2, he says he misses that selfishness.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> /still pouting/


Don't worry. We're benevolent. And also basking in being speeshul for once.










Vegan vs. vegetarian. Given that I am sensitive to all forms of dairy, wheat, etc., if I chose to become non-meat-eating, I would have no choice but to be a vegan. I cannot eat grain, and as an organic hippie, I refuse to eat chemicals pretending to be food.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Really? INTJ?
> 
> Agreed on Isabella and Fenris. Merrill, I don't know. I suppose.
> 
> Also, Anders seemed more extroverted in Awakening, and he was constantly running away from the circle, even as a boy. He stopped once he met Karl, then started again when Karl was transferred to Kirkwall. Then Justice happened. Before Justice, he didn't really care about helping the mages, he was just out to protect himself. In DA2, he says he misses that selfishness.


I say INTJ because he's so bloody focused on getting revenge, and has a very Te attitude with him, especially regarding the Kirkwall Circle compared to what he knows, the Tevinter mages. This is what happened there when mages took control, so it will happen again, its fact. ISTP is a popular typing for him, but he doesn't really have Ti, imo.

Aw, don't you like her? :wink: Again, when I play Awakening, I'll probably think how you do. But from what happened in the game, he's very Fi-Te, *especially* in the ending.


----------



## Greyhart

I'm gone for night, I come back there are cat emoticons everywhere.

Christ almighty, I can't believe my mom is real sometimes. There's this reality show where they show horrible families. So this was about family with a girl that reminded my mom of me. So she call me this morning and goes "I SAW THIS GIRL POOR GIRL I'M GOING TO CALL TV STATION AND GET THEIR NUMBER AND TAKE THIS GIRL TO OUR HOUSE FOR THIS SUMMER!!". Mom... IDK what to say to this. There's so many reasons this isn't happening...



fair phantom said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate the changes to the Sansa storyline. Hate hate hate. They did it deliberately to make it more painful for the audience (this is made clear in interviews). It is stupid. I honestly can't understand why Littlefinger would take her there without finding out about Ramsay first. It was uncharacteristically stupid. Also, if the whole point is to legitimize their claim and make the North feel more kindly towards them, then what is achieved by letting Ramsay brutalize Sansa repeatedly? Some people say it was inevitable that Ramsay would treat her that way, but I think not. Roose may not be kind, but he is pragmatic. He could easily have been like: "hey Ramsay, much of the North is already pissed at us so play nice okay?"
> 
> Also it derails Sansa's character arc. She has already been the victim. We don't need this repetition. Also I hate that it treats two female characters as interchangeable.


UGH, so it was a change. It grated me because cmon no way Littlefinger didn't do his research???



> I knew they were going to change it though, if only because Show!Jorah is too sophisticated and attractive to play a bear. (A change I am 100% okay with :redface-new


Oh, yeah my friends "complained" about casting. I totally all for it lol.



> I mostly asked because it seemed like a number of people (not just here but over on the game of thrones typing thread) *don't like any of the characters*. I love it because the characters are complicated, interesting, distinct from one another (Martin knows how to write women that are strong in different, non-idealized ways), and they don't change their behavior and motivations to suit the plot. The plot flows from the characters and the larger, more impersonal forces, not author whims. I love the world (I became a bit obsessed with heraldry after reading the books). I loved how earthy the magic was. I love how it deals with how difficult it is to rule, to make the right decisions. I love it because even though the good people suffer, the cruel and selfish people usually don't get to enjoy the fruits of their evil deeds. I think Martin has a strain of optimism under all that "realism". I love that even surprising events make sense in hindsight. I love Martin's sense of tragedy. (I could go on and on).


Wow, HOW? I have a few (non-outright-villain) characters that I really dislike but overall, all are complex and interesting.



> Jorah. Ah yes. I ship it to. In the shows at least. Yes there is the age difference but Dany knows her own mind. If it happened, it would not be unhealthy. Also his love and devotion for her is so sincere and true. It is really beautiful to me. I think he wouldn't force it. He doesn't need her to reciprocate his feelings. He just loves her and help her achieve her goals however he can. The scene in the arena made me go :hearts:
> 
> And crucially, _he respects her_. Part of what makes me uncomfortable about relationships with huge age differences is that often the older tries to shape the latter into what they want. They may be patronizing and domineering. This would not at all be the case with Jorah and Dany.
> 
> On a shallow note, it doesn't hurt that I think Iain Glen (who plays Jorah Mormont) is attractive.


he gon die horribly i kno it











> I also only went to a few sessions. I wonder if its a temperament thing that it doesnt work for some people? My Fe dom/aux friend finds it really helpful, whereas I found it unhelpful and have low Fe.


Maybe. My ESFJ mom went to a few too (she couldn't afford much either) but she liked talking out grievances. Maybe I just didn't click with my therapist. There are a very few of them in my city. As I said, it would be more helpful for me to be just pointed towards direction I should take in order to combat my problems than talking about it. TBH talking it out with my parents and friends did me more good that therapy sessions.



> Thats good! I wish I'd drawn more then, but mostly I got angry/frustrated, pressed really hard with my pencil and used very jagged lines. I did seem to draw dragons a lot though...Were your drawings from therapy or just drawing for yourself?


For myself. I'm extra lazy to do anything with it nowadays.



> Yeah but then it's so vague its hard to teach...


For me it would be enough "If u feel empty and don't want to live, u probs have depression." and "If you feel like there's a danger and u should run without any reason, u probs have panic attacks and some form of anxiety."



> I think thats a fine way to walk. Do you slouch because of being anxious? I cant slouch because I used to have a bad back from slouching a ton!


I'm used to slouching before computer because of eyesight, and my back muscles are really weak so walking straight if kind of an effort. And then there's no motivation, "If I am dressed like a slob what's the point of trying to walk like a queen?" *slouches comfortably*.



> Me too! I always get a bit squeaky or giggle and was actually told to not giggle by a phd student because people wouldnt take me seriously...


I actually noticed a lot of people do it, change their voice when addressing strangers. My mom's voice get higher when she does "polite". My INFP bff talks kind... monotone when talking to strangers.



> I can understand that. I find I cant eat some stuff out/at peoples houses i.e. yoghurt, mayonaise etc because it feels 'icky'... Did you ever have a thing of needing food to be kept separate on a plate? I wouldnt eat curry if it mixed with the rice etc.


No, but since I was kid I had a tendency to eat "separately". Like if there's mix of stuff on my plate, I'd eat one thing first, finish it and only then start eating other. I'm really lazy living alone so instead of making a sandwich I just cut large piece of bread, cheese and some veggie and then take a bite of each. I mean, it gets mixed in my mouth anyway whats the point of making it pretty. *shrug*
@shinynotshiny



































































SugarPlum said:


> BTW, has anyone done this test?:typingneko:
> Cognitive Function Test



* *




Extroverted
Intuition
75%

Introverted
Intuition
72%

Extroverted
Sensation
41%

Introverted
Sensation
29%

Extroverted
Thinking
20%

Introverted
Thinking
66%

Extroverted
Feeling
40%

Introverted
Feeling
24%



Te lowest lol :|



shinynotshiny said:


> There was a discussion a while back about Si, anxiety, and depression. The idea was that some aspects of Si reflect aspects of anxiety and depression (especially if we're talking about dominant Si and inferior Ne). Some people may relate to Si because of this. @Greyhart took part in the discussion and spoke about OCD behavior and Si's attention to detail, if I remember correctly. I've always felt descriptions of Si are too broad and touch upon common and/or universal behaviors rather than behaviors that are unique to one function. There's Jung's description of Si, but that probably confuses people even more :confused-new:
> 
> I'd still like to know how I strike you as Si if you're willing to explain.


I've noticed many characters with OCD traits get typed ISxJ esp ISTJ.



hoopla said:


> Feeling is not emotion. It's right or wrong, good or bad, justice or injustice, worthy or unworthy. Authentic or inauthentic, if you ask me (I believe @Greyhart said authenticity= introversion; I think it's related to Feeling). Rational judgments that are not based upon logic, but ethical standards. Hence, value.


I can't recall when I said that but I've noticed authenticity is a thing for FPs. For me it's not even a "thing". I don't think about, I would have a hard type trying to remember when I ever thought it important. Possibly it's just a high Feeling priority?



Curiphant said:


> I read somewhere the judging functions are actually the rational functions or whatever something like that because they are four logic systems. I.e. Fi and Fe are value logic and Ti and Te are factual logic.


I understand it this way too. Technically "logic" is "reason" and ethics is reason/reasonable too.



Barakiel said:


> Jeez, now I'm wondering if I'm really as brutal as I hear 8s are. :ball:


I didn't think I was turned out IRL people are afraid of my anger. :|



Oswin said:


> Can we figure this thing out though? Fi activists vs Fe activists?
> Like...ok, looking at Tumblr SJWs for instance...I'd say 90% of them seem to be bandwaggoners, who are likely going to change their opinion on any given issue to fit in with what's 'ok' on Tumblr. Look at how quickly 'friend zone' became an ok, funny term to 'omg the most offensive thing ever'. Some bandwaggoning definitely happened there. I associate that with Fe, but...
> Then there's others, who seem to have more clear standards about what they actually think is wrong and why. And they can draw the line. They can say 'this is offensive, and this is not even though it got 200,000 reblogs' or something.
> 
> Or...ok, I hate Tumblr, some of that might be seeping through))
> 
> In real life. People who fight for causes. Whatever they are. How do we distinguish a Fi thing from a Fe thing? And I don't think it's just 'peer pressure'. Fe is more interested in asserting moral values, right? Whereas Fi has strong inner values?
> 
> So, we've got a group of people standing outside a fur shop with buckets of red paint. How do we tell apart the Fe and Fi users in that group?





Avalnoah said:


> My opinion on social justice, especially Tumblr social justice is that the more sensible people get grouped into a very crazy vocal minority.
> 
> Although a lot of people who follow social justices for the general idea, I feel like many of them don't undertake the research into really understanding these issues and just parrot issues like sheep.


Bangwagoning I think has a lot, really a lot, to do with age too. I recall my younger self jumping into such things easily. Large part of tumblr are teens. When I was 14 I can distinctly remember thinking that I am done with my mental growth, that I am as adult as I'll ever get. *trollface* This is the reason I need to invent time machine or at least time e-mail-chine. So I could go back and tell my younger self that she is SOOO wrong.

What I am saying is that when I was young I was swayed by movements and ethically viewed everything in extremes. Very anti-Ne behavior come to think of it, hm.



angelcat said:


> Fi is an abstract, individualistic, ruminating function that finds it expressly difficult to put emotion into words.
> 
> Fe is an objective, matter of fact function that easily conveys its sentiments through judgments.
> 
> I think it would be harder to sense Fi in oneself than Fi, because our internal functions are often the ones we are not consciously aware of. It took me awhile to recognize Si, but I knew I was Fe the moment I comprehended it on a most basic level of being other-people-centric. Not in mirroring them (never have, unless you're talking good manners), or in agreeing with the consensus of opinion (never do), but having them, their welfare, their interests, their reactions, their emotional state, first and foremost in my mind whenever they are in the room with me.
> 
> For me, it has never been "I am offended by this" first, but rather, "This could offend people."
> 
> PEOPLE. Not ME. PEOPLE. I watch stuff and go, "Wow, my mom would hate this." It's like I don't exist half the time in my own mind; like I am here as a guardian to protect others from things they would dislike, find offensive, etc. _Wow, my friend would really hate finding out THIS about her favorite actor -- I'm not going to mention it and pray she never finds out_. Never mind that I don't like it either -- my first thought is, "What will HER reaction be?"


I related to Fe but at the same time couldn't reconcile it's description with my self-centeredness and thought I could be Fi because of this >____< Function's order matters.



alittlebear said:


> But... I don't think that's true. A lot of people are racist and homophobic because it is socially acceptable, because society believes it is right and they don't realize anything different. But when society changes, people change. A lot of them, anyway. You will still get abusive, downright mean people who enjoy hurting others... but a lot of people aren't like that. If it's unacceptable to be homophobic or racist, if equality is the norm... People listen. People learn. We are shaped by society, and if the society is geared towards equality, more equality will be achieved.


After Age of Ultron movie ended, the group with which I attended it started discussing movie and first topic was "There was so many blacks in there lol wtf. Polit correctness much?" level of cringing I felt inside, wow. There wasn't any point of bring it up, however. Outside of Internet I've never met a black person myself. Racism of this sort is nothing in confines of my culture.



hoopla said:


> Because I'm a stranger, minding my own business. It feels intrusive. Hasn't it raised your eyebrows that it's mostly men who whistle anyway?
> 
> I don't mean I dislike being flirted with or called attractive. I don't like feeling objectified. Though objectification is a sensitive topic and I'm loose about it's implications and meaning. When I feel objectified depends upon the context.
> 
> No, Catcalling is NOT A Compliment, and Here's Why
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with the way this article is framed, but I agree with the overall message.
> 
> It's a conflicting topic. I just don't find it flattering. I don't know you, I didn't initiate it, I'm minding my own business... it's creepy to me.


Ugh, I remember I was catcalled by grown ass men when I was a teen. Around 14 I already had a body like I have now with D cup and was often confused for university student. But age 30+ men catcalling teen!me are still one of the creepiest memories I have. 



fair phantom said:


> Once a guy told me I was pretty. That was fine. It wasn't a sexualized comment and I wasn't alone and in a vulnerable place. How these things are done matters.
> 
> But when I see a guy hollering at a girl about how much they like her ass even when she makes it clear she doesn't want their attention. That is not okay with me.
> 
> You take it as a compliment? That is your prerogative. But some of us do not take it as a compliment and there is no reason we should have to.


Tits and ass comments. Ugh. I respond with comments about wilted wrinkled dicks. :eye roll:



SugarPlum said:


> I personally see nothing wrong with a *woot-wooo* whistle and smirk, from afar.


Ah, you meant that sort. I probably won't notice it lol. I'm thinking more of explicit comments of what dude would like to do to me. *shudder*



hoopla said:


> There is a sense of coercion. *I've encountered several strangers who have followed me down the street. Tried to get me to talk. Demanded hugs. My phone number. Coffee. I had to provide fake numbers to leave them alone.* The fact I cannot say no is the issue. That's why it's not flattery. I don't think being honked at is much different. I just want to do whatever I'm doing... I don't need you parading me. I don't see it as much different as women being ogled at in dressing rooms, but that will cause a fire. The reason is because it's invading my privacy, and I don't have control over it.


Holy Hell. Wow, I tend to respond with direct aggression if catcalling tries to turn into catfollowing. So far scares dudes away fine.



ElliCat said:


> I'm so happy to see descriptions of ENTP-INFP interactions that don't involve EWWW FI GET AWAY GET AWAY!!


Nah, I'm totally rad with all the FPs. NP and NP is a least productive relationships in existence, though. We go off into randomness so much we often can't finish a damn 2 hour movie because we pause it to talk about ideas we get during it.



> Not eating meat is mostly a texture thing for me too!! I used to hate it when friend would try to tease me at meals by being all "mmmm this meat is so delicious look at what you're missing out on!" NO. Besides the fact that you're being really arsehole-ish, it's not even remotely tempting. :-/


Wow, did we discover some correlation between that and low-order Si? O:



> Yes. But if there's no external evidence to back it up I'll be forced to reconsider, because I value getting as close to the "truth" (if truth exists) as possible over being right. Other Fi-doms might ignore the facts if they don't measure up though... seen a bit of that around...


Seems to correlate with what I've observed.











Oswin said:


> Oh my gosh, people, I think I figured it out! You guys'll have to tell me if I'm right or not, but I think I am in fact ENFJ.


Thread of fucking revelations, I swear.



Living dead said:


> @Oswin,ENFJ over ESFJ,or else I'm ESFJ too
> @tine,wouldn't agree,my ESFJ,perfectly ESFJ grandma lives for what others think,I mean _lives_
> *She goes to places just to bring people souvenirs,like literally,once she made my mom drive her from Germany to Netherlands,went to buy a couple of things and returned to the car.*


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:



laurie17 said:


> Well, I mostly just see Te going on (extraverted judging is always most apparent). Say you were given the choice of a few different places you could travel to - 1. a holiday resort on a small inhabited island of your choosing, right next to a beach, with inclusive breakfast, 2. a trekking holiday around a large foreign country of your choosing, going around the most famous places and staying in hostels, 3. a camping trip around a country of your choice, where you would live in nature for the holiday.


I'm curious what would this mean. I'd go for definitely 1. *if* a good company was included (just one friend would do). If I was alone I'd pick 1 or 2, 2 likelier probably. For 2 I'd probably pick country with best science museums. Not sure which one that would be. For 3. NO NATURE NATURE BUGS NATURE NO BATHROOM NATURE MANIACS WITH CHAINSAWS.
@hoopla ugh, PETA isn't in my country obviously but I've been reading about their escapades for years and just it's just Eww.

__________________________

According to this test 5 Dimensional Policial Compass I'm:

Socialist World-Federalist Bleeding-Heart Progressive 

Collectivism score: 67%
Authoritarianism score: 0%
Internationalism score: 100%
Tribalism score: -100%
Liberalism score: 67%

I'm perplexed. I'm socialist.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> I say INTJ because he's so bloody focused on getting revenge, and has a very Te attitude with him, especially regarding the Kirkwall Circle compared to what he knows, the Tevinter mages. This is what happened there when mages took control, so it will happen again, its fact. ISTP is a popular typing for him, but he doesn't really have Ti, imo.
> 
> Aw, don't you like her? :wink: Again, when I play Awakening, I'll probably think how you do. But from what happened in the game, he's very Fi-Te, *especially* in the ending.


I _was _thinking ISTP, especially because he fought for the markings, but then he did that for his family. INTJ is interesting, I'll have to think about it. He _is _very blunt and matter-of-fact.

Nah, I agree he's Fi/Te, but he seemed more Ne in Awakening... from what I remember, anyway. It was so long ago.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> I'm gone for night, I come back there are cat emoticons everywhere.
> 
> Christ almighty, I can't believe my mom is real sometimes. There's this reality show where they show horrible families. So this was about family with a girl that reminded my mom of me. So she call me this morning and goes "I SAW THIS GIRL POOR GIRL I'M GOING TO CALL TV STATION AND GET THEIR NUMBER AND TAKE THIS GIRL TO OUR HOUSE FOR THIS SUMMER!!". Mom... IDK what to say to this. There's so many reasons this isn't happening...


Yup, the emoticons are damn infectious. :laughing:

On the subject of your mom, frankly, she seems like the moralizing sort, good intentioned, but ultimately stupid in her hastiness. :wink:



Greyhart said:


> I didn't think I was turned out IRL people are afraid of my anger. :|


Haha, well, I can sympathize. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I _was _thinking ISTP, especially because he fought for the markings, but then he did that for his family. INTJ is interesting, I'll have to think about it. He _is _very blunt and matter-of-fact.
> 
> Nah, I agree he's Fi/Te, but he seemed more Ne in Awakening... from what I remember, anyway. It was so long ago.


Yeah, ISTP is a good jump and gun typing for him, cause he does seem like one from the outset, but he has a remarkably Te view. :happy:

Ah yeah, he does seem to have some Ne in 2, so that would make sense, and perhaps Justice brought out his Fi a lot more. He's definitely inferior Te, though. What about Meredith, Orsino, Bartrand, Carver, Bethany, Gamlen, and Leandra? Yes, I'm pulling out all the stops. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, ISTP is a good jump and gun typing for him, cause he does seem like one from the outset, *but he has a remarkably Te view*. :happy:
> 
> Ah yeah, he does seem to have some Ne in 2, so that would make sense, and perhaps Justice brought out his Fi a lot more. He's definitely inferior Te, though. What about Meredith, Orsino, Bartrand, Carver, Bethany, Gamlen, and Leandra? Yes, I'm pulling out all the stops. :laughing:


I love Fenris, emo hair and all. I understand now.

Bartrand keeps to family tradition, right? And he's all about gold and status.

Orsino... Orsino was such a fool. I don't know where to begin.

Need to think about the rest. I never took an interest in them, Carver especially.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart it's a bit difficult for me to imagine a world without diversity. I wonder if I would be difference without how I've grown up in the world. My mom's family is non white, I've almost always gone to the most diverse schools in my county... This didn't exempt me from having subconsciously racist thoughts that I'm still rooting out, but... can't imagine not knowing someone of almost every ethnicity (that I know of, at least). It probably would have shaped me in a very bad way, I imagine.


----------



## 68097

Has anyone left this here yet?






Yup. I'm an introvert. All subjective impressions, hence why I sometimes butt heads playfully with @alittlebear and her objective Fe-dom-ness. 

(Also, I just spent the last two days running around and with people, and I feel like a truck ran over me. I need to spend about 6 hours writing on my novel to get anywhere back to levels of being "recharged." So yeah. Not an extrovert.)


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I love Fenris, emo hair and all. I understand now.
> 
> Bartrand keeps to family tradition, right? And he's all about gold and status.
> 
> Orsino... Orsino was such a fool. I don't know where to begin.
> 
> Need to think about the rest. I never took an interest in them, Carver especially.


Haha, he's awesome, gotta admit that. :kitteh:

Bartrand seems like an ESTJ to me, such an annoying one too, like a shorter Vernon Dursley. :dry:

Yes, yes he was. But I'd rather side with him than Meredith.

Haha, I actually didn't want to make a mage character simply because he'd survive. Still makes a good contrast when he becomes a Templar, though. :ball:


----------



## Greyhart

@Barakiel @shinynotshiny r u talking about Fenris DA2? I can't see him as anything but ISTJ.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart. That's my problem. I am timid, not aggressive. Makes me an easy target. Doesn't mean I deserve that... but it doesn't help.

One of the men in question:

Walking home from Le library. Some guy inside bursts out to talk to me. *Follows me*. Ignore. Ignore. Not working. I froze up so instead of "I need to get going" I kind of was... stuck. I couldn't talk. He wouldn't shut up. Finally I gave him my :number". "...Can I have a hug?" Oh God. That was fun. I scrammed afterwords. 

I'm an idiot in those situations. However.... why would you follow someone outside of a library when you're in it? Like... wtf.

Haven't taken that political test in 4ever.

Your mother sounds like a cartoon character. My mother may as well be one too.

Last phone call conversation somehow... landed on vaxes. Oh fun. "Uh gov is lying they cause autism but not in all children (aka look I'm open minded see) see it's only children with incompromised immune systems..."

"Uh.... autism Is not an autoimmune disease?"

Ha she was so pissed. She ended the call.

like wtf.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> @Barakiel @shinynotshiny r u talking about Fenris DA2? I can't see him as anything but ISTJ.


Yup, you can join in if you like. Though ISTJ is a weird typing, why do you think that? He doesn't display *any* inferior Ne, and gives off several examples of inferior Se, at least from what I can see.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> According to this test 5 Dimensional Policial Compass I'm:
> 
> Socialist World-Federalist Bleeding-Heart Progressive
> 
> Collectivism score: 67%
> Authoritarianism score: 0%
> Internationalism score: 100%
> Tribalism score: -100%
> Liberalism score: 67%
> 
> I'm perplexed. I'm socialist.


I'm a bleeding heart communist uffer:


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> @Greyhart. That's my problem. I am timid, not aggressive. Makes me an easy target. Doesn't mean I deserve that... but it doesn't help.
> 
> One of the men in question:
> 
> Walking home from Le library. Some guy inside bursts out to talk to me. *Follows me*. Ignore. Ignore. Not working. I froze up so instead of "I need to get going" I kind of was... stuck. I couldn't talk. He wouldn't shut up. Finally I gave him my :number". "...Can I have a hug?" Oh God. That was fun. I scrammed afterwords.
> 
> I'm an idiot in those situations. However.... why would you follow someone outside of a library when you're in it? Like... wtf.
> 
> Haven't taken that political test in 4ever.


... Sorry, wait, what? Why do people randomly want a hug from you? Isn't that something reserved for friends, or do you have butch arms that are comfortable? :whoa: I'm actually really perplexed by this.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> @_Barakiel_ @_shinynotshiny_ r u talking about Fenris DA2? I can't see him as anything but ISTJ.


I was thinking this if we were going the TJ route.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart it's a bit difficult for me to imagine a world without diversity. I wonder if I would be difference without how I've grown up in the world. My mom's family is non white, I've almost always gone to the most diverse schools in my county... This didn't exempt me from having subconsciously racist thoughts that I'm still rooting out, but... can't imagine not knowing someone of almost every ethnicity (that I know of, at least). It probably would have shaped me in a very bad way, I imagine.


My mom is tatar so I'm technically too. She is white-ish looking asian. Step dad is mediterranean. Biodad has Georgian roots. There is Vietnamese community in my city, gypsies obviously. Lots of Azerbaijani immigrants, I've spent 1-11 grade with brother and sister from there. But black people? Nope, I've heard a few foreigners visited but never seen myself. It's weird to me to. I mean I've spent to much time with USA Internet dwellers I actually get racial friction that happens there but IRL it's completely irrelevant to my community? So weird.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Has anyone left this here yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. I'm an introvert. All subjective impressions, hence why I sometimes butt heads playfully with @alittlebear and her objective Fe-dom-ness.
> 
> (Also, I just spent the last two days running around and with people, and I feel like a truck ran over me. I need to spend about 6 hours writing on my novel to get anywhere back to levels of being "recharged." So yeah. Not an extrovert.)


Oh, did you see my response to it? I think Ember assumed I'm an I now, based on what I said? I still think I have dom Fe, because I don't think I'm INFJ and I don't think ISFJ is right enough to go back to that either, but... His comments made me wonder. 

Then again, I think what I said showed that I have Pi over Pe. If someone wants me to go play I have to orient myself within the bigger picture, understand the situation in relation to the world, and then I can have the time of my life, but that's not the case at all when it comes to helping/accommodating someone. Reservations aside, I jump out there and do it. Probably more a J thing than an I thing, I imagine.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> ... Sorry, wait, what? Why do people randomly want a hug from you? Isn't that something reserved for friends, or do you have butch arms that are comfortable? :whoa: I'm actually really perplexed by this.


Nope, apparently not.

Like I said I sort of sucked at defending myself. I should of automatically said I have to go. I... semi initiated a convo. Walking away did not fucking work. Finally I spat it out. After being asked to be taken out to dinner. Phone number. Then... "Please, can I have a hug?" I was pretty clear he wasn't going to leave and I had no self defense weapons. No disgusting grabbing at least. Must have been because I was so "gorgeous" and "beautiful".

Weirdos roam the streets.

Maybe now it makes sense why I was so zealous earlier. Ha.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

For some reason guys don't harass me?

One guy did, at my school. But that was more bullying than anything, because his type of guy is never attracted to a girl like me. 

I think it's because I look like I'm twelve and even cat callers have their age standards.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Oh, did you see my response to it? I think Ember assumed I'm an I now, based on what I said? I still think I have dom Fe, because I don't think I'm INFJ and I don't think ISFJ is right enough to go back to that either, but... His comments made me wonder.
> 
> Then again, I think what I said showed that I have Pi over Pe. If someone wants me to go play I have to orient myself within the bigger picture, understand the situation in relation to the world, and then I can have the time of my life, but that's not the case at all when it comes to helping/accommodating someone. Reservations aside, I jump out there and do it. Probably more a J thing than an I thing, I imagine.


I'm confident you're a Fe-dom. Your response to everything is Fe -- how it impacts other people, how it reflects on them, whether or not it is objectively moral, whereas mine is based on subjective interpretations flowing INTO Fe. Yeah, murdering Dany isn't moral, but so what? Etc. I think your hesitation to join in might be tied to your social anxieties, whereas for genuine introverts it's more ... "um... show me how to do it?"


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Nope, apparently not.
> 
> Like I said I sort of sucked at defending myself. I should of automatically said I have to go. I... semi initiated a convo. Walking away did not fucking work. Finally I spat it out. After being asked to be taken out to dinner. Phone number. Then... "Please, can I have a hug?" I was pretty clear he wasn't going to leave and I had no self defense weapons. No disgusting grabbing at least. Must have been because I was so "gorgeous" and "beautiful".
> 
> Weirdos roam the streets.
> 
> Maybe now it makes sense why I was so zealous earlier. Ha.


Ah yes, I get what you meant by that, frankly, overenthusiastic article. I just considered it a piece of media blown up for news flare, my fault. :ball:

Still, yeah, weirdo. :dry:


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> @Greyhart. That's my problem. I am timid, not aggressive. Makes me an easy target. Doesn't mean I deserve that... but it doesn't help.
> 
> One of the men in question:
> 
> Walking home from Le library. Some guy inside bursts out to talk to me. *Follows me*. Ignore. Ignore. Not working. I froze up so instead of "I need to get going" I kind of was... stuck. I couldn't talk. He wouldn't shut up. Finally I gave him my :number". "...Can I have a hug?" Oh God. That was fun. I scrammed afterwords.
> 
> I'm an idiot in those situations. However.... why would you follow someone outside of a library when you're in it? Like... wtf.


Creeeeeeeeepyness level 9000. Each introvert needs extrovert as a shield. Preferably some with type 8.



> Your mother sounds like a cartoon character. My mother may as well be one too.
> 
> Last phone call conversation somehow... landed on vaxes. Oh fun. "Uh gov is lying they cause autism but not in all children (aka look I'm open minded see) see it's only children with incompromised immune systems..."
> 
> "Uh.... autism Is not an autoimmune disease?"
> 
> Ha she was so pissed. She ended the call.
> 
> like wtf.


I've learned to just go with it. Like when all the TV "experts" were talking about end of the world and disappearance of all the energy on Earth, and my mom and grandma were panicking and not listening to reason. Just roll with. I'm kind of curious how this will end. She'll either get refused by people on TV station or bully them into giving number of that family. Judging by the episode they are major assholes, I'm not sure what the reaction be. Kid is legit abused, though. In USA she'd probably be taken by child services.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> For some reason guys don't harass me?
> 
> One guy did, at my school. But that was more bullying than anything, because his type of guy is never attracted to a girl like me.
> 
> I think it's because I look like I'm twelve and even cat callers have their age standards.


Sometimes they just do it to make you feel awkward, threatened, uncomfortable, to mock you, etc.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Ah yes, I get what you meant by that, frankly, overenthusiastic article. I just considered it a piece of media blown up for news flare, my fault. :ball:
> 
> Still, yeah, weirdo. :dry:


It wasn't my best source. It was just the first that popped up, and I'm lazy.

It's mellow dramatic sure. But the message I can dig.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I'm confident you're a Fe-dom. Your response to everything is Fe -- how it impacts other people, how it reflects on them, whether or not it is objectively moral, whereas mine is based on subjective interpretations flowing INTO Fe. Yeah, murdering Dany isn't moral, but so what? Etc. I think your hesitation to join in might be tied to your social anxieties, whereas for genuine introverts it's more ... "um... show me how to do it?"


Hmm... For me, not jumping into the water feels more like getting a grasp... but in regards to "show me how to do it"... Nah. I'll figure it out myself, or follow what you do, or find my own way. My anxiety might hold me back because I'm afraid of looking foolish, but ultimately I'll still do it. 

Also, gosh, where did I read this on the forum today... Someone said Fe is about helping people, influencing people's lives, that's what Fe dominant a do... That's what my entire life is. Since I was a child, I have wanted to impact people's lives. Even when I was a wee little girl, my internal life saying was "If I can change the life of person in a positive way, I will have earned my place in the world." Now that I've accomplished that more than twl dozen times over, I want to help people to help people and help the world, not just another person. (Not that a person is a small thing  )


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> It wasn't my best source. It was just the first that popped up, and I'm lazy.
> 
> It's mellow dramatic sure. But the message I can dig.


Fair enough, I can appreciate the message, it's just really bloody preachy, and makes me think of feminists who try to build themselves up and treat any female role model as a freaking martyr. :frustrating:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Sometimes they just do it to make you feel awkward, threatened, uncomfortable, to mock you, etc.


That's what the guy at my school was doing  The toad. But I had been using my Fe against him for a year to deliberately ignore and bring him down (because he made fun of me for having Tourette's one time), so I guess it was understandable why he would have a rude outburst like that. 

I kind of got cat called by some sixth graders at my mom's school but they stopped when they thought I said I was in ninth grade. (I meant nineteen, but I guess ninth grade was just as shocking to them.)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That's what the guy at my school was doing  The toad. But I had been using my Fe against him for a year to deliberately ignore and bring him down (because he made fun of me for having Tourette's one time), so I guess it was understandable why he would have a rude outburst like that.
> 
> I kind of got cat called by some sixth graders at my mom's school but they stopped when they thought I said I was in ninth grade. (I meant nineteen, but I guess ninth grade was just as shocking to them.)


Bring him down?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> For some reason guys don't harass me?
> 
> One guy did, at my school. But that was more bullying than anything, because his type of guy is never attracted to a girl like me.
> 
> I think it's because I look like I'm twelve and even cat callers have their age standards.


In my city it also depends on a part of city. Like, I lived close to a college campus and dorms so there were lots of drunk students on weekend. Also a few clubs close. And a pub. Where I live currently it's like... retirees paradise. Elderly people and kids that visit their grandparents.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Bring him down?


He thought he was better than people, that he could bully people, that he could get away with it. So I politely stopped acknowledging his existence. Stopped holding the door open for him, would smile at literally everyone but him, acted like he wasn't there in conversation. My passive resistance. I did the same thing to the guy who sexted me. Guy who sexted me didn't realize what I was doing (ever, the dear), but this guy noticed and got irked by it. I started being a bit more interactive with him, but I didn't give him my smiley benefit of the doubt like I did with like literally everyone else.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Hmm... For me, not jumping into the water feels more like getting a grasp... but in regards to "show me how to do it"... Nah. I'll figure it out myself, or follow what you do, or find my own way. My anxiety might hold me back because I'm afraid of looking foolish, but ultimately I'll still do it.
> 
> Also, gosh, where did I read this on the forum today... Someone said Fe is about helping people, influencing people's lives, that's what Fe dominant a do... That's what my entire life is. Since I was a child, I have wanted to impact people's lives. Even when I was a wee little girl, my internal life saying was "If I can change the life of person in a positive way, I will have earned my place in the world." Now that I've accomplished that more than twl dozen times over, I want to help people to help people and help the world, not just another person. (Not that a person is a small thing  )


Yup. Fe-dom. Also, you related to Ti-inferior descriptions, so... stop doubting your type.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> In my city it also depends on a part of city. Like, I lived close to a college campus and dorms so there were lots of drunk students on weekend. Also a few clubs close. And a pub. Where I live currently it's like... retirees paradise. Elderly people and kids that visit their grandparents.


Hmm.. That's true. I live in a nice town currently, the boys are still immature but they understand manners still in their home place. On college ca,pus I'm still not cat called or anything, but then again, I have a friendly campus.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> He thought he was better than people, that he could bully people, that he could get away with it. So I politely stopped acknowledging his existence. Stopped holding the door open for him, would smile at literally everyone but him, acted like he wasn't there in conversation. My passive resistance. I did the same thing to the guy who sexted me. Guy who sexted me didn't realize what I was doing (ever, the dear), but this guy noticed and got irked by it. I started being a bit more interactive with him, but I didn't give him my smiley benefit of the doubt like I did with like literally everyone else.


Hmmm. Interesting. I would never bother.


P.S. I know, I just _know_, @hoopla is going to come through on that pinkie promise.




no hope :hopelessness:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Yup. Fe-dom. Also, you related to Ti-inferior descriptions, so... stop doubting your type.


_ENFJ 9 is still so unusual _ but I'll accept it. Ha. 

It actually does make a lot of sense in some ways. It explains why I do relate to ENFJs in fiction, but I'm not as _out there_ as they are. It's because I'm not out there. I'm more calm, reserved, and let-the-situation-work-itself-out than the typical ENFJ is. And I'm more Je than the typical 9 is, which is why I don't relate to a lot of classic 9 stuff  

My life is coming together.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Creeeeeeeeepyness level 9000. Each introvert needs extrovert as a shield. Preferably some with type 8..


Makes sense; not well versed in enneagram but it's the type I relate to the least. 3 isn't me either.

That's why I prefer to date extroverts. I dated an introvert once. Lasted... less than a month? And there was no official break-up either. He had to ask... "So... are we still dating?" "Uh... I don't know are we?" "...I don't think so". "Guess you're right". Couldn't get more introverted than that.

I'm sure I could work with an introvert but when I date extroverts they're the yin to my yang.



Greyhart said:


> I've learned to just go with it. Like when all the TV "experts" were talking about end of the world and disappearance of all the energy on Earth, and my mom and grandma were panicking and not listening to reason. Just roll with. I'm kind of curious how this will end. She'll either get refused by people on TV station or bully them into giving number of that family. Judging by the episode they are major assholes, I'm not sure what the reaction be. Kid is legit abused, though. In USA she'd probably be taken by child services.


I remember you telling that story. Not sure my mom would go for that one... but she goes for some pretty weird things sure.

I am so glad you can roll with it. I can't discuss health with her. Mostly because she believes what I consider to be false hope scams and I try to reason out of concern. Why do I even. I did talk her out of the 80/10/10 though:



> Can a person survive on only raw foods?
> 
> There is no essential nutrient in meat, grains, legumes, or dairy that is not also available in fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, and in a form that is easier to digest. Indeed, many essential nutrients can be obtained only from plants. People thrive on the raw diet, often telling others how it has improved their health and their lives. Fruits, vegetables, and leafy greens not only contain sustainable amounts of carbohydrates, protein, and fat, they have them in the percentages, ratios, and quality that are optimum for human health. When people integrate a proper raw diet with other healthful living practices, they rarely, if ever, develop body weight issues or chronic (or even short-term) illnesses.


Yeah sounds healthy AF am I right. She saw right through that logic. Thank God.

I think what happens with inferior Ti sometimes is you get so caught up in that grand miracle that can save us all or that damn evil that is hurting everyone that you forget logic. I was like that when I was younger. Tert Ti flourished... but sometimes... I get excited... until I remember don't want to get duped. It's not that ESFJ's are dumb, no. Not at all. Not all ESFJs are like our mothers either. Our mothers are nuts. ESFJs aren't the only people who buy into things like that either. There are tons of factors. For her she just gets excited.

What I couldn't talk her out of... these coffee enemas she's into. Google it. That shit doesn't belong here. She is trying to cajole me into them. Yeah no. 

Ship that girl over to the US plz.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh @angelcat the Sanctuary show you're typing from sounds really interesting! Don't know if I can get around to watching it since I'm trying to get into shows at the moment that I can converse with a wide amount of people about and I'm not sure Sanftuary is as well known, but if I get a spare moment of 12000 I'll take a peek.


----------



## 68097

Introverts dating introverts is baaaad. Long pauses. Awkward silences. Overall hesitation to engage and shyness. When *I* have to keep the conversation going, we have a problem. One guy was super nice, and very kind, and sweet and whatnot, but after 6 months I didn't feel like I knew him at all, because trying to pry an opinion out of him was like pulling teeth.

On the other hand, I've dated a few extroverts who just ran right over the top of me. Made all my decisions for me, ignored my suggestions, expected me to tell them where they were going when neither of us had ever been there before, in the moment, on the road, going 70 miles per hour, at night, in a strange place. STRESS.

I'd like of like to date an ENTP sometime. Bet that would be fun. Or at least amusing. So far I've been around mostly ESFXs.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Oh @angelcat the Sanctuary show you're typing from sounds really interesting! Don't know if I can get around to watching it since I'm trying to get into shows at the moment that I can converse with a wide amount of people about and I'm not sure Sanftuary is as well known, but if I get a spare moment of 12000 I'll take a peek.


I love it. I was obsessed for four years when it was running. Her butler is Bigfoot, btw. And she has a werewolf working in the tech department. The first few episodes are kind of bad from an objective standpoint, but the show really hits its stride late in season one through season three. Season four had some good moments and some bland ones. But yeah, Helen is amazing. And Tesla is amazing. And John/Jack the Ripper is amazing. And the Victorian flashbacks are amazing. And I love Hank. And...


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Introverts dating introverts is baaaad. Long pauses. Awkward silences. Overall hesitation to engage and shyness. When *I* have to keep the conversation going, we have a problem. One guy was super nice, and very kind, and sweet and whatnot, but after 6 months I didn't feel like I knew him at all, because trying to pry an opinion out of him was like pulling teeth.
> 
> On the other hand, I've dated a few extroverts who just ran right over the top of me. Made all my decisions for me, ignored my suggestions, expected me to tell them where they were going when neither of us had ever been there before, in the moment, on the road, going 70 miles per hour, at night, in a strange place. STRESS.
> 
> I'd like of like to date an ENTP sometime. Bet that would be fun. Or at least amusing. So far I've been around mostly ESFXs.


Unless it's a fun ENTP like @Greyhart I say watch out.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Introverts dating introverts is baaaad. Long pauses. Awkward silences. Overall hesitation to engage and shyness. When *I* have to keep the conversation going, we have a problem. One guy was super nice, and very kind, and sweet and whatnot, but after 6 months I didn't feel like I knew him at all, because trying to pry an opinion out of him was like pulling teeth.
> 
> On the other hand, I've dated a few extroverts who just ran right over the top of me. Made all my decisions for me, ignored my suggestions, expected me to tell them where they were going when neither of us had ever been there before, in the moment, on the road, going 70 miles per hour, at night, in a strange place. STRESS.
> 
> I'd like of like to date an ENTP sometime. Bet that would be fun. Or at least amusing. So far I've been around mostly ESFXs.


That's one thing I've been pondering for a while. I think I would need an Extrovert as a partner. Someone who will talk time and help me actively engage in the world. I think I could work with an IxFJ, but mostly I'm thinking ExTP (I love thinkers, too much) or ExFJ. I suppose I could work with ExTJ, but INTJ or NFP would be harder for me I think. 

(I say this, but it really doesn't matter when your whatever in your head makes you attracted to someone. My lifelong crush is ESFP. No idea why I like him. He's not particularly anything, honestly, as far as my usual desire for attractive qualities go. He's ambitious and he's funny and he's wonderful and he's smart and... I mean, there are lots of good things, but he's still not the type of person I would imagine myself liking. [I mean, we all decided he's basically Ron Weasley... and I hate Ron.] Yet I always say that if he told me he wanted to marry me, I would figure out how to drive right now and go with him to a church / Vegas. This liking stuff is most unpredictable, honestly.)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@shinynotshiny I dug through your posts (fun) and I am also analyzing ur vacation survey. This thread is distracting; why. 
@angelcat for me it wasn't the silence issue. I can be pretty talkative if I know you at length or the topic interests me. I had know this guy for two years before we gave it a shot. It's more that we were both content so it fell apart due to little effort. lol.

Being friends first really helps break the ice, especially as an introvert. Most of the people I've dated I knew well before hand. So more serious dating. I never thought I would be the type to casually date. The first time was an accident. That's when I realized, sometimes casual dating is fun. More loose and flexible; less commitment.

I'm not sure that's exactly extroversion vs introversion in your case. I never had that particular problem... controlling, maybe a bit but not to that extent. I can usually weed guys like that out pretty quickly, and I'm glad for it. ;P Flexibility is key. Sorry you went through that.

I have mostly dated ESxPs interestingly. It seems to me that Ti-Fe is my best match. Not that Te-Fi wouldn't work or anything. The introvert in question was ISTJ. We still talk. One ESFP I dated... didn't work, but I think the problem was a bit deeper than Fi-Te.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ I dug through your posts (fun) and I am also analyzing ur vacation survey. This thread is distracting; why.


Hmm, leave the vacation survey to @laurie17 for now.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> Makes sense; not well versed in enneagram but it's the type I relate to the least. 3 isn't me either.
> 
> That's why I prefer to date extroverts. I dated an introvert once. Lasted... less than a month? And there was no official break-up either. He had to ask... "So... are we still dating?" "Uh... I don't know are we?" "...I don't think so". "Guess you're right". Couldn't get more introverted than that.
> 
> I'm sure I could work with an introvert but when I date extroverts they're the yin to my yang.














> I remember you telling that story. Not sure my mom would go for that one... but she goes for some pretty weird things sure.
> 
> 
> I am so glad you can roll with it. I can't discuss health with her. Mostly because she believes what I consider to be false hope scams and I try to reason out of concern. Why do I even. I did talk her out of the 80/10/10 though:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah sounds healthy AF am I right. She saw right through that logic. Thank God.
> 
> I think what happens with inferior Ti sometimes is you get so caught up in that grand miracle that can save us all or that damn evil that is hurting everyone that you forget logic. I was like that when I was younger. Tert Ti flourished... but sometimes... I get excited... until I remember don't want to get duped. It's not that ESFJ's are dumb, no. Not at all. Not all ESFJs are like our mothers either. Our mothers are nuts. ESFJs aren't the only people who buy into things like that either. There are tons of factors. For her she just gets excited.
> 
> What I couldn't talk her out of... these coffee enemas she's into. Google it. That shit doesn't belong here. She is trying to cajole me into them. Yeah no.


I kind of figured explaining why something is bad idea or won't work is the best I can do. If she still rolls with it, it's her choice. In the end I'll be there to fix it or at least to gloat about being right. Or if I am wrong well, I was wrong.



> Ship that girl over to the US plz.


That sounds like a solution. TBH I don't know how I'd survive in that kind of situation. Imagine Dursleys, except it's their child, and they are out and in the open with abuse. *shudder* The reality show is supposed to help parents-children relationships in these families. From the few episodes it looks like it doesn't work. Parents are getting paid to allow cameras so in the most cases I can see their minds just thinking "Whatever, they go away and we'll go back to our ways".


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> (I say this, but it really doesn't matter when your whatever in your head makes you attracted to someone. My lifelong crush is ESFP. No idea why I like him. He's not particularly anything, honestly, as far as my usual desire for attractive qualities go. He's ambitious and he's funny and he's wonderful and he's smart and... I mean, there are lots of good things, but he's still not the type of person I would imagine myself liking. [I mean, we all decided he's basically Ron Weasley... and I hate Ron.] Yet I always say that if he told me he wanted to marry me, I would figure out how to drive right now and go with him to a church / Vegas. This liking stuff is most unpredictable, honestly.)


I've never had a real-life crush. Plenty of fictional character crushes, though. And some actor crushes.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> That sounds like a solution. TBH I don't know how I'd survive in that kind of situation. Imagine Dursleys, except it's their child, and they are out and in the open with abuse. *shudder* The reality show is supposed to help parents-children relationships in these families. From the few episodes it looks like it doesn't work. Parents are getting paid to allow cameras so in the most cases I can see their minds just thinking "Whatever, they go away and we'll go back to our ways".


Wow sounds worse than an episode of Dr. Phil. Google him.

Gotta love reality TV psychologists. Always the best.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Introverts dating introverts is baaaad. Long pauses. Awkward silences. Overall hesitation to engage and shyness. When *I* have to keep the conversation going, we have a problem. One guy was super nice, and very kind, and sweet and whatnot, but after 6 months I didn't feel like I knew him at all, because trying to pry an opinion out of him was like pulling teeth.
> 
> On the other hand, I've dated a few extroverts who just ran right over the top of me. Made all my decisions for me, ignored my suggestions, expected me to tell them where they were going when neither of us had ever been there before, in the moment, on the road, going 70 miles per hour, at night, in a strange place. STRESS.
> 
> I'd like of like to date an ENTP sometime. Bet that would be fun. Or at least amusing. So far I've been around mostly ESFXs.


My INFP bff dates ISTJ. Works for them for 5 years. It's so... un-sparky from _my_ point of view. They look like they just chill all around. WHERE IS THE FIRE I ASK, WHERE?









Maybe I'm just too young and irresponsible for stable relationships like that. They seem to be setting towards getting married. My bff goes all sparky eyes fairy kingdom when talking about their relationship.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I've never had a real-life crush. Plenty of fictional character crushes, though. And some actor crushes.


Ah. I've had too many. I might be asexual, but I am not aromantic... Wish I was sometimes, but eh.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Unless it's a fun ENTP like @Greyhart I say watch out.


I'll let u kno I'm fun AND considerate.











hoopla said:


> Wow sounds worse than an episode of Dr. Phil. Google him.
> 
> Gotta love reality TV psychologists. Always the best.


It's more like "we are trying to apply band-aid to a gangrene".


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> Sorry I'm trying to catch up!
> 
> At first I saw this post and smiled,
> 
> But isn't this like basic empathy? I thought getting happy when others were happy was empathy. Maybe getting happy because strangers are happy is more in Fe territory, but even then doesn't Fi do that?
> 
> I don't know.


I havent seen it admitted by any other type, but thats based on my experience!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I don't do the role play?
> 
> I like imagining what if's though. Like For Want of a Nail. I love that stuff. What if Elend had been a girl? What if Hermione had drinken the wrong potion at the end of the first book? What if Sirius had seen a picture of Harry Potter earlier?



What if Elend had been a girl? Well, Vin would still love her, I think. Elend would just be 20x more relatable to me than he is presently.


----------



## Barakiel

You are a: Socialist Anti-Government Bleeding-Heart Liberal

Collectivism score: 67%
Authoritarianism score: -33%
Internationalism score: 0%
Tribalism score: -100%
Liberalism score: 17%


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Yeeey, like mine -100% too. What the fuck does it mean.


I think it means that like, we don't feel a pull to our people. We don't think our country is superior, we don't feel protective over a certain group. Perhaps?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I was obsessed with quizzes of this sort in middle school. Like. Absolutely obsessed.
> 
> Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts
> 
> (This is far from the best one -- I just found this now -- but they deleted Quizilla which had the best Life Quizzes :/)


I did not like this quiz at all

I got Ravenclaw beeh


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I was obsessed with quizzes of this sort in middle school. Like. Absolutely obsessed.
> 
> Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts
> 
> (This is far from the best one -- I just found this now -- but they deleted Quizilla which had the best Life Quizzes :/)


oh my gOD WHAT THE FRAK 


* *




Based on your answers to the questions, your life would be something like this if you went to Hogwarts:

Name: Nicole Flint
House: Slytherin
Blood Type: pureblood
Wand: Dragon, Hornbeam wood, rigid
Patronus: Racoon
Boggart: Bugs
BFF: Ginny Weasley
*Boyfriend: Draco Malfoy*
Enemies: Cho Chang, Zacharias Smith, Marietta Edgecombe
Best Class: Care of Magical Creatures
Quidditch: A chaser!

And here is what your Hogwarts pals think of you:

Harry Potter: Nicest Slytherin I've ever met.
Ron Weasley: Very good looking, and super nice.
Hermione Granger: She's lovely, very smart and always smiling.
Ginny Weasley: I remember when I met her on the train, I couldn't believe she was in Slytherin. She's literally amazing!
Fred Weasley: Great sense of humor! Can actually laugh when we prank her.
George Weasley: Never without a smile.
Cedric Diggory: Can't say I know her well; only that she and Cho don't get on.
Cho Chang: She thinks she's so great! She sets me on my nerves!
Luna Lovegood: I like her.
Draco Malfoy: I never thought I'd love anyone as much as I love her! Even if she hangs with the Weasley's I will always care for her!
Pansy Parkinson: Ugh, she stole Draco from me! And she acts like she's the Slytherin prince
- See more at: Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I did not like this quiz at all
> 
> I got Ravenclaw beeh


They're pretty ridiculous, all of these quizzes, but I used to _love_ them.


----------



## orbit

You are a: Socialist Pro-Government Multilateralist Bleeding-Heart Moderate

Collectivism score: 67%
Authoritarianism score: 17%
Internationalism score: 67%
Tribalism score: -100%
Liberalism score: 0%


Advertisement:
colognesperfume.com


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> oh my gOD WHAT THE FRAK
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on your answers to the questions, your life would be something like this if you went to Hogwarts:
> 
> Name: Nicole Flint
> House: Slytherin
> Blood Type: pureblood
> Wand: Dragon, Hornbeam wood, rigid
> Patronus: Racoon
> Boggart: Bugs
> BFF: Ginny Weasley
> *Boyfriend: Draco Malfoy*
> Enemies: Cho Chang, Zacharias Smith, Marietta Edgecombe
> Best Class: Care of Magical Creatures
> Quidditch: A chaser!
> 
> And here is what your Hogwarts pals think of you:
> 
> Harry Potter: Nicest Slytherin I've ever met.
> Ron Weasley: Very good looking, and super nice.
> Hermione Granger: She's lovely, very smart and always smiling.
> Ginny Weasley: I remember when I met her on the train, I couldn't believe she was in Slytherin. She's literally amazing!
> Fred Weasley: Great sense of humor! Can actually laugh when we prank her.
> George Weasley: Never without a smile.
> Cedric Diggory: Can't say I know her well; only that she and Cho don't get on.
> Cho Chang: She thinks she's so great! She sets me on my nerves!
> Luna Lovegood: I like her.
> 
> - See more at: Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts


She acts like she's the Slytherin prince

Vvvvvvvvvvvvv
Draco Malfoy: I never thought I'd love anyone as much as I love her! Even if she hangs with the Weasley's I will always care for her!
Pansy Parkinson: Ugh, she stole Draco from me! And she acts like she's the Slytherin prince


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I think it means that like, we don't feel a pull to our people. We don't think our country is superior, we don't feel protective over a certain group. Perhaps?


I'm all for United Earth government so we ready to meet aliens as a whole species.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> oh my gOD WHAT THE FRAK
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on your answers to the questions, your life would be something like this if you went to Hogwarts:
> 
> Name: Nicole Flint
> House: Slytherin
> Blood Type: pureblood
> Wand: Dragon, Hornbeam wood, rigid
> Patronus: Racoon
> Boggart: Bugs
> BFF: Ginny Weasley
> *Boyfriend: Draco Malfoy*
> Enemies: Cho Chang, Zacharias Smith, Marietta Edgecombe
> Best Class: Care of Magical Creatures
> Quidditch: A chaser!
> 
> And here is what your Hogwarts pals think of you:
> 
> Harry Potter: Nicest Slytherin I've ever met.
> Ron Weasley: Very good looking, and super nice.
> Hermione Granger: She's lovely, very smart and always smiling.
> Ginny Weasley: I remember when I met her on the train, I couldn't believe she was in Slytherin. She's literally amazing!
> Fred Weasley: Great sense of humor! Can actually laugh when we prank her.
> George Weasley: Never without a smile.
> Cedric Diggory: Can't say I know her well; only that she and Cho don't get on.
> Cho Chang: She thinks she's so great! She sets me on my nerves!
> Luna Lovegood: I like her.
> Draco Malfoy: I never thought I'd love anyone as much as I love her! Even if she hangs with the Weasley's I will always care for her!
> Pansy Parkinson: Ugh, she stole Draco from me! And she acts like she's the Slytherin prince
> - See more at: Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts


uffer: :welcoming: :ghost2:


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> She acts like she's the Slytherin prince


STAP


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Took the test again to get my result again, lol 


* *







> Name: Jaclyn Tate
> House: Gryffindor
> Blood Type: muggleborn
> Wand: Dragon, Vine wood, flexible
> Patronus: Elephant
> Boggart: Failure
> BFF: Ginny Weasley
> Boyfriend: Harry Potter
> Enemies: Pansy Parkinson, Crabbe, and Goyle
> Best Class: Herbology
> Quidditch: The seeker!
> 
> And here is what your Hogwarts pals think of you:
> 
> Harry Potter: I love her so much! I don't know how I'd ever survive without her!
> Ron Weasley: She's funny, and really good looking. But don't tell Harry I said that.
> Hermione Granger: She's nice, although sometimes she can get a little out of hand.
> Ginny Weasley: My best friend! She helped me get over Harry. Ironic, because now she's dating him.
> Fred Weasley: I like her, she's very out there.
> George Weasley: Funny girl, she has good prank ideas, but can never pull them off.
> Cedric Diggory: I'm afraid I don't know her.
> Cho Chang: I don't know much of her.
> Luna Lovegood: Oh, she's alright. A bit eccentric, though.
> Draco Malfoy: Weird Gryffindor, almost as bad as Potter.
> Pansy Parkinson: Stupid muggleborn, always hogging all the attention. - See more at: Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts





Oh, how I loved being told I was a Mary Sue in my preteen years  

Of course, I knew it was false. Life uizzes have no idea who you are, they just try to smooth you into a possibility. Still, it was fun.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Well, yes, the lack of companionship does bother me at times. But I guess what worries me more is that I don't seem to experience attraction (especially sexual attraction; romantic attraction is fear easier and more familiar) like normal people do. Just a feeling of "What's wrong with me - and how/should I try to fix it?"


I couldn't tell if it were my suggestion, or the idea something may be wrong with you.

Really don't sweat it. Have you looked into asexuality? Many branches; you may identify. 

Nothing wrong with having a sexuality different from people. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. I'm a straight female, but... I have some interesting turn ons that are probably out of the norm. As long as you are happy and comfortable with what you are, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I was obsessed with quizzes of this sort in middle school. Like. Absolutely obsessed.
> 
> Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts
> 
> (This is far from the best one -- I just found this now -- but they deleted Quizilla which had the best Life Quizzes :/)


Oh god, I remember Quizilla, the bane of my productivity. :dry: I was also kind of annoyed that there were few male variations of those quizzes. :laughing:


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I'm all for United Earth government so we ready to meet aliens as a whole species.


So am I ^^


----------



## Max

I just found my life story in a gif.

And what's this Harry Potter Politics crap?

Enlighten me, someone.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> took the test again to get my result again, lol
> 
> 
> 
> oh, how i loved being told i was a mary sue in my preteen years
> 
> of course, i knew it was false. Life uizzes have no idea who you are, they just try to smooth you into a possibility. Still, it was fun.


LET'S POKE A FUN AT HER SHE DATES THE CHOSEN ONE



Curiphant said:


> You are a: Socialist Pro-Government Multilateralist Bleeding-Heart Moderate
> 
> Collectivism score: 67%
> Authoritarianism score: 17%
> Internationalism score: 67%
> Tribalism score: -100%
> Liberalism score: 0%
> 
> 
> Advertisement:
> colognesperfume.com


hAH ANOTHER SOCIALIST


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Took the test again to get my result again, lol
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, how I loved being told I was a Mary Sue in my preteen years
> 
> Of course, I knew it was false. Life uizzes have no idea who you are, they just try to smooth you into a possibility. Still, it was fun.


I choked at Luna's response


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> LET'S POKE A FUN AT HER SHE DATES THE CHOSEN ONE
> 
> 
> hAH ANOTHER SOCIALIST


A *moderate* socialist


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I just found my life story in a gif.
> 
> And what's this Harry Potter Politics crap?
> 
> Enlighten me, someone.


Deal with with emotions in a healthy way - RUN.

5 Dimensional Policial Compass

I brought up HP yesterday so...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> A *moderate* socialist


Who would guess you would get Moderate 

I aimed to be a Moderate. But that was in a time past. (Or is it passed? Gah.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I choked at Luna's response


Am I not a person who Luna Lovegood would call "too eccentric" though.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Deal with with emotions in a healthy way - RUN.
> 
> 5 Dimensional Policial Compass
> 
> I brought up HP yesterday so...


You are a: Centrist Anarchist Isolationist Humanist Progressive
Collectivism score: 0%
Authoritarianism score: -100%
Internationalism score: -50%
Tribalism score: -67%
Liberalism score: 50%


Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I told Curi this was my life gif. 










I need to find my actual life gif, but it's still a work in progress.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't put myself in the world. Even in dreams, I always experience the dream as someone else or in third person point of view. Whenever I dream about myself, specifically as myself, it's because the dream has to do with something I'm experiencing (either externally or internally and I'm working it out) or I'm reliving an intense memory in a weird dreamscape.
> 
> Don't know. I've never seen the appeal of self-inserts. I can relate to a character or a situation or find myself wanting to live in such-and-such world or time period, but I never do the roleplay thing you mention. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.
> 
> [Edit] What Greyhart said about imaginary characters lol


This is Ne if you ask me.

You got your analysis happy?

My computer keeps crashing when I try to reply to @LuchoIsLurking. I will never keep up


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Who would guess you would get Moderate
> 
> I aimed to be a Moderate. But that was in a time past. (Or is it passed? Gah.)


Is that sarcastic or

Are you just like 

Do I really come off as extreme?


----------



## Darkbloom

Conservative Non-Interventionist Humanist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: 0%
Internationalism score: -33%
Tribalism score: -50%
Liberalism score: -67%

Can someone explain?


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> This is Ne if you ask me.
> 
> You got your analysis happy?
> 
> My computer keeps crashing when I try to reply to @LuchoIsLurking. I will never keep up


Why is it Ne?


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> This is Ne if you ask me.
> 
> You got your analysis happy?
> 
> My computer keeps crashing when I try to reply to @_LuchoIsLurking_. I will never keep up


That is a statement, not an analysis.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Is that sarcastic or
> 
> Are you just like
> 
> Do I really come off as extreme?


No. You are non biased, you go with the flow. As they say here, you are clarity. Moderate makes sense for you, but I never realized it before. 

I think I was made for extremism. I can be all-or-nothing sometimes. When I come to a cause, every other approach to it makes me go "no no no". In some ways, it's better for me to just not think about it at all... but I have to think about it, especially if I want to weasel my way into this world at all and try to impact it long term, in real time.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> You are a: Centrist Anarchist Isolationist Humanist Progressive
> Collectivism score: 0%
> Authoritarianism score: -100%
> Internationalism score: -50%
> Tribalism score: -67%
> Liberalism score: 50%
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


So you be like "this is my anarchist human trash can, fuck other trashcans" xD

Just talked to my mom on video chat and she is like "Wow, do you hear that? A bird singing!" "What? Where?" "Where you are!" only then I zoned into listening and yeah, there's a bird singing really beautifully outside my window.











Living dead said:


> Conservative Non-Interventionist Humanist Reactionary
> Collectivism score: -67%
> Authoritarianism score: 0%
> Internationalism score: -33%
> Tribalism score: -50%
> Liberalism score: -67%
> 
> Can someone explain?


Oh, you. Not-communist! xD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

If you're not communist you need to get out. Agree with our assessment of equality or we will treat you as the inferior you are. 

/I'm trying to be ironic I really love people please don't ban me for bullying/


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> No. You are non biased, you go with the flow. As they say here, you are clarity. Moderate makes sense for you, but I never realized it before.
> 
> I think I was made for extremism. I can be all-or-nothing sometimes. When I come to a cause, every other approach to it makes me go "no no no". In some ways, it's better for me to just not think about it at all... but I have to think about it, especially if I want to weasel my way into this world at all and try to impact it long term, in real time.


I am clarity. I am Clarity. 

I'd be an awesome world ruler


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also,


alittlebear said:


> No. You are non biased, you go with the flow. As they say here, you are clarity. Moderate makes sense for you, but I never realized it before.
> 
> I think I was made for extremism. I can be all-or-nothing sometimes. When I come to a cause, every other approach to it makes me go "no no no". In some ways, it's better for me to just not think about it at all... but I have to think about it, especially if I want to weasel my way into this world at all and try to impact it long term, in real time.


 @Living dead @fair phantom my penchant for extremism and strong desire to touch the world is another reason I have had doubts about 9. 

I suppose it could be accounted for by Fe/Ni, but... Eh.


----------



## Greyhart

I actually know a shit nothing about ennea type 1. Ur definitely not type 8. So that's 9 and 1 left for tritype.

I realized I'm not actually that bad dealing with details if it's something _I want_ to do. Or evening Te-ing. Like optimizing a character in this game requires a lot of math/comparison/cost/efficiency calculations.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I actually know a shit nothing about ennea type 1. Ur definitely not type 8. So that's 9 and 1 left for tritype.
> 
> I realized I'm not actually that bad dealing with details if it's something _I want_ to do. Or evening Te-ing. Like optimizing a character in this game requires a lot of math/comparison/cost/efficiency calculations.


It's always been between 9, 1, and 2 for me. 

We've considered 1, but I'm way too soft. I have 1 in me, but we account for that with double 1 fix. 9w1 2w1. It's like the best of both worlds. (Or worst of both Enneagram faults... eh.)


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I've heard that some of my friends like to read and imagine themselves as a character in the world. They make their character avatar and imagine how they would react to the story as they read, what sort of character they would be, like they sort of internally role play as they read.


I am a casual observer of most literature, neither in the story nor outside it. I do not invent avatars and get lost in fictional worlds, but I do often imagine how I would have responded differently than the main character. I might take an idea based off a plot twist or whatever, and imagine more to the story, or what I might do in that world, but that happens after I've had a chance to think about it -- not while the story is unfolding.



hoopla said:


> I'm a straight female, but... I have some interesting turn ons that are probably out of the norm.


Hahaha. Me too. And no, I'm not telling anyone what they are. Dat be PRIVATE.


----------



## Max

@Greyhart- Yas xD My bedroom is my trashcan. Literally

Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Strikes me as Ne because it's taking subjective experiences and flipping them over, expanding on them conceptually in various forums forms. Seeing them in new ways. Unless I'm misunderstanding.

Anyone familiar with Charlotte Perkins Gilman? I haven't read Herland yet (well, excerpts), but her short stories are a feminist treat. 

http://wps.prenhall.com/wps/media/objects/107/110026/ch18_a2_d2.pdf

Definitely Ne and Si in this. The protagonist discusses the boring minutia of her day to day life... everything is the damn same... and then she imagines being another person, conceptually, to get a feel of a different world, and gains a revelation about sexism and how men view women; a perspective she had never considered before.

Not sure if this will resonate with you @shinynotshiny, but my eyes lit up with glee when I first read that. I loved the Yellow Wallpaper, so when I discovered a book of short stories in my high school library I was so thrilled, and she did not disappoint. 

Wanting to live in such and such time period... I think is more of an Ne thing too. Se is more into the aesthetic, or playing it out as it happened... Ne fetishizes history. At least for me. If it's the "whole new world" aspect that grips you, then probably Ne. Pe, at least.

When I was in school I gained a nerd reputation. Boggled my mind. I hated Lord of the Rings, and had only seen bits and pieces of Star Trek and Star Wars. I liked clothes, make-up and I read vogue. What were people smoking?

Flash forward to 6th grade. Medieval history. I loved that shit. Towards the end of the year we re-enacted the era and I was in heaven. We re-enacted songs and several activities/traditions from the period, ate re-created dishes, told stories. I was one of the few who went all out in costume; and I could of cared less about extra credit. That's when I realized where they were coming from.


----------



## owlet

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I can see it as a possibility, sure, even though I had kind of given up on being an iNtuitive...
> 
> With the whole knowing how I'd feel matter, part of that is derived from experience: most of the traveling I've done was on guided tours where I was often the youngest person by a good 50 years, and practically leashed by an overprotective parent. The locations may have been great, but I hated the lack of freedom. If given the opportunity, I'd totally go for travelling myself.
> 
> A note about hypothesizing: I'm good at generating imaginary situations and immersing myself in them. Like, really good. It makes me empathic as hell, since I often don't even really need to have had a similar experience to conceptualize where the other person's coming from, or what they might be feeling/thinking. Though I do draw on stuff I've read in the past about similar situations, people's accounts of their experiences...so it's not _all_ me. But I generally don't dismiss right off the bat; at least I try not to.
> 
> Similarly, I have an iron suspension of disbelief since when I take in most any media, I'm _far_ more focused on placing myself in that fictional world as though I'm actually there, wondering what it would be like to actually be in that story, if xyz was real, etc, than analyzing it as something outside myself. This is completely natural and I've been doing it all my life, only recently learning how to examine things (and boy, does dumb stuff jump out at me). Actually, this kind of stuff was what led me to type as an ISFJ, despite other supposedly NF-ish traits like daydreaming and random musings being my default mental state. I guess there's a sort of concreteness to my imaginings that makes me unsure that they're from iNtuition.


It sounds like you do use Ne-Si, with them at a similar level. Why did getting immersed in something/external analysis make you think Si dominant? It would depend on the analysis, but generally that would be associated with Te-Fi, as far as I can work out. Daydreaming isn't really an iNtuitive thing, as far as I'm aware.

But yes, using Ne-Si at a similar level would mean either ESTJ or INFP, generally. Of course, functions can be out of order, because these are generally 'ideal' functional stacks. Would you say you get more incensed when someone either ignores facts ('I believe this, I don't care what science etc. says') or when someone demeans something you think of as valuable ('That book you gave to me had all these flaws').




Barakiel said:


> No worries. :happy:
> 
> Haha, ironically, Trigun is the opposite, but I love it because all the characters are morally complex, and two faced as all hell. Plus, y'know, it happens to be pretty damn funny in its own right. :cheers2: Vash is the most reasonable pacifist I've ever seen.
> 
> Ah, would you say he's an extremist, or an anti-villain? I'm curious, though I'll probably have to watch it myself to find out. :laughing:


I liked Trigun when I saw it years ago. It might be nice if they remade it with better art/animation, because the characters were good.

He's... He does some unpleasant things, but I don't want to spoil anything. Just go watch it! :eagerness:



shinynotshiny said:


> I think it explains why everyone sees Te and I ruffle a few feathers eaceful:
> 
> The thing about inferior Fi is that I do suffer from depression and social anxiety, and I mean the chronic kind, it's been a recurring problem since childhood. Some days I can't really discern what I'm feeling or why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. My lows get very low and turn into Se messes, and I do go through periods of blunted affect.
> 
> I've always wondered if I'm naturally extroverted but gradually withdrew from the world because of my circumstances. My brother is introverted in a very similar way, and his Fx is also on the lower end, I'd say he's INTP. We're only a year apart and grew up together, so we share a lot in common. He's possibly the only person on my wavelength as of right now.
> 
> Not sure what to say about Ni/Se. I've never been able to relate to descriptions of Si aside from attention to detail now and then, but that feels more Te and/or anxiety-based. This is why I've wanted hoopla's point of view on Si for the longest time.
> 
> Thank you for answering, the possibility of being Te-dom has given me a lot to think about :ball:
> 
> 
> The guests are stalkers, voyeurs, they need accounts. <-- As in: post, people!


Eh, Se can be very detail-orientated too - it takes good snapshots.

No problem! I do think Te dominants often have moments of extreme sensitivity (sometimes almost like the stereotypical Fi dominants). Of course, it can be hard to discern between those and depression. I think Te doms can have trouble working out what's important to them, or put it below what is the 'best' way to do something by objective standards, which can lead to them feeling like they're missing something.

Extraversion in MBTI is not extroversion, so you can easily be a withdrawn Te dom. 





Greyhart said:


> for _1. a holiday resort on a small inhabited island of your choosing, right next to a beach, with inclusive breakfast_ it sounds like an excellent place to lure some... significant other (not necessary in sexual sense) and just talk talk talk about ideas world everything anything they want. Quiet remote location implies that threre won't be anything to distract act from this.
> 
> For _2. a trekking holiday around a large foreign country of your choosing, going around the most famous places and staying in hostels_ if I still had SO with me it would be fun too but more of _shared experience_ than_ experience shared between us_ like in case of 1.
> 
> If I was alone, then first option would bore me, I would see no point of hanging out there alone. I could do the same out of my house. So take 2. option, see stuff. Maybe go to Disneyland. No matter how much I imagine, actually going there would probably be more awesome. Science museums, I always wanted to actually stand near huge dinosaur skeleton and feel their size in comparison to mine. Or I've never been to planetarium. I actually have only vague image of how awesome it would be. I've seen videos but sitting there would probably be even better. I'd love to visit opera house or see a Broadway show too... Just sight-seeing like eh... Eiffel tower doesn't appeal to me. Or just a tour around city sounds boring too.


(I feel so lucky having a museum and planetarium just down the road from me now....)
Lots of talk about ideas and potentials, very open-ended (maybe this, maybe that). Some sense of low-key safety going on - nothing too extreme, all appearing to be very much in civilisation, exploration of things which seem like they would be stimulating (more to it than i.e. the Eiffel Tower - it needs to have something to consider further i.e. dinosaur skeleton size, science museum). The Si comfort/safety thing is hard to pick out from SP dom, though.



tine said:


> Hope you dont mind me doing this too, it seems interesting!
> 
> I like 2 and 3, whereas I would only choose 1 if other people were going who I knew hated camping/couldnt hike etc.
> 
> 2 = I really enjoy hiking generally and enjoy exploring new areas. I'd prefer to go around places that may not be famous, but seemed interesting to me because famous places can be overcrowded and the reasons for fame arent always good (I like to visit places which are famous if they also have other important qualities, like being extremely different, interesting, make me think etc but found visiting places like Buckingham palace to feel like a waste because it was mostly just staring at a big building from a crowd of people...). If the famous place was an art gallery or museum I'd enjoy it a lot though. I also like the sense of adventure, moving between places a lot, although hostels may be a pain because it involves sharing rooms with unknown people which could make me anxious.
> 
> 3 = I always feel really calm and happy around nature so would enjoy being close to it. I dont mind not having electricity etc so long as Im somewhere that's full of wildlife. I'm assuming you mean wild and not cultivated nature here, otherwise I wouldnt like it as much because it would feel fake and look forced. I do like gardens etc but much prefer seeing things how theyre meant to be. I would enjoy moving round the country for similar reasons as 2 (seeing new things, hiking around, adding memories and ideas to my mind - like collectors do with stamps or coins or something). Id like to learn as much about the place as possible - how life works there, whats there, why etc. I find it easiest to learn more when you're there yourself rather than just seeing pictures or reading about it (how much is real and how much is an interpretation?)
> 
> I think I'd like 3 best overall, but like aspects of 2.


Minor Fe in the compromise at the start. Se in all the descriptions of visuals, physical exploration of the wilds, being immersed in nature etc. Why would it be okay if it's a museum or art gallery?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Tagging @laurie17 so she doesn't miss this ^^


Curiphant said:


> I need to take a break from watching this show and so I'm going hijack this also.
> 
> I'd pick two definitely because I don't want to be stuck on an island that's probably not interactive or you just stare at how pretty the beach is. The breakfast is a nice deal though. But like holiday resorts sound so… boring. I like breakfast. Like really like breakfast. I love waking up because breakfast is my favorite meal. Even though I have the same thing everyday.
> 
> And a camping trip would be interesting if I wanted to be in a reflective mood but walking around a forest and more forest and nature in a repetitive manner would also be boring. I could walk and walk… Maybe. With thoughts. I'd pick this maybe if I just had gotten out of something stressful.
> 
> So that leaves two because wow culture! And hotels. I love sleeping in different beds. Maybe seeing awe-inspiring things of different cultures would impart something on me. My dad said that he understands my mom after he visits Japan so maybe I'll understand people more… It'd be educational.
> 
> Actually maybe I'll go back to one because I wouldn't want to sit a car all day, traveling between places. But my mom has ingrained a fear of nature in me.
> 
> I don't like traveling darn it. Can I make my own choice?
> 
> I'd want to visit a foreign country but stay in one place to soak up that one countries' culture with a friend because just seeing their sights… That's too much of a shallow understanding. And I need a friend for emotional support.
> 
> I change my answer. I'd travel through nature because I hate sitting in cars and I can look up famous sites. I'd want to interact with people more than as a tourist or not at all. Camping through nature would force me to appreciate the environment.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Watching Episode 9's Daenerys parts. What the heck. This is definitely not what happened in the book. I feel like I'm watching Mulan.

Edit: sorry but omg






That was incredible. Why were we talking about the story at the Wall when like this happened


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> The breakfast is a nice deal though. But like holiday resorts sound so… boring. I like breakfast. Like really like breakfast. I love waking up because breakfast is my favorite meal.


This is how I felt this morning because I could finally eat solid food :excitement:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm not sure what you're referring to in the beginning. When I dream about myself and what I feel, it's usually the same theme played out over and over again, recurring faces and recurring feelings, but different dreamscapes. They're never carbon copies of real world experiences, and I think they're visually different each time because that's the nature of dreaming. When I dream a specific type of dream, I wake up knowing what my problem is. A lot of the feelings I can't put into words transform themselves into dreams.:


My error. I thought you meant daydreaming... why? I should have figured because you discuss your dreams quite a bit. I am a ditz. Therefore my analysis is irrelevant. This is why I don't do analysis. I cannot analyze you.

How do you relate to Ni/Se? I'm open to being wrong.  I probably am.

I didn't even realize dreams... meant anything until the concept was revealed. I thought they were just bits of your day twisted around into something deeper... so I guess I knew they had a meaning, but not in the unconscious mind angle. I've never had vivid or interesting dreams, so.

I would rather discuss daydreaming than dreams. I do believe dreams can serve a valid tool for exploration of the conscious mind or insights into your soul/psyche or life in general. It's just not my ilk. 

I'm still blushing this was embarrassing. :whoa:



shinynotshiny said:


> I skimmed through the short story and it didn't draw me in, although it did remind me of Ocativa Butler's short story Bloodchild. It deals with gender roles, power dynamics, things like that. Ursula K. Le Guin also does this. I'm not usually attracted to stories that reflect life as it is unless there's an element or message that elevates it for me.:


You could say that story does reflect real life, and in many ways it does. But there was an unreal aspect, at least to me, in the sense she was able to step outside of life in see it in that new perspective. 

You gave me interesting sources; thanks. What other sorts of messages interest you?

I had a feeling you wouldn't resonate with the story; partly why I pulled it out there; to see how you would react. Especially due to the Si-Ne aspect. I'm starting to think I am wrong.



shinynotshiny said:


> About the time period, I was thinking more in terms of "the future" rather than a range of years or specific time in history.


Explain your idea of the future a bit more? How you view it?

How would you explain the modern age?



shinynotshiny said:


> [Edit] Also, I really was the nerd in high school, although I think the term these days is geek :jupiter:


I still don't fully understand how that label got applied (and still occasionally does). *shrugs*

To a certain extent I understand, but I wouldn't say I technically qualify?

Maybe I'm just a special snowflake. :love_heart:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Okay. No. Now I get why the dragon thing wasn't a big deal 


* *









I I couldn't even watch past like. I don't even know. I had to stop. 

I'm breathing heavily omg I don't know why this is a thing why is this a thing just let the girl be oh my gosh I really don't even 

Should have just watched this scene on Monday and gotten it over with


----------



## Deadly Decorum

laurie17 said:


> Why is that Ne? I used to be an active member of a roleplaying game forum when I was a young teenager and love D&D/VTM, I don't like self-inserts (it's uncomfortably self-conscious), dreams are just dreams - I have both first and third person POVs... I don't think it's indicative of type.


I fucked up and thought she meant daydreaming. That's how I personally daydream or see the world in a new way. I'm going to die of embarrassment.

typing based on actual dreams.... would be interesting, but yes, bad idea.

I actually wasn't referring to the roleplaying game aspect though.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Okay. No. Now I get why the dragon thing wasn't a big deal
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I I couldn't even watch past like. I don't even know. I had to stop.
> 
> I'm breathing heavily omg I don't know why this is a thing why is this a thing just let the girl be oh my gosh I really don't even
> 
> Should have just watched this scene on Monday and gotten it over with


Stannis: dominant Te, inferior Fi, gone bad.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Stannis: dominant Te, inferior Fi, gone bad.


Kill him, honestly. With fire. 

I was mad about the mother, but then I saw... 


* *




I just hope Shireen got to see her mother struggling to save her. That she knew that she was not abandoned entirely. That at least her mother still cared. The poor girl. Oh. How can people stand by as a child is murdered? I don't understand. As a child is tortured....

The saddest thing is, I think it was all for nothing. Mel in the books tells Jon she doesn't even know if Stannis is the one. Honestly I think they're going to need to burn Dany to get what they need (or the Young Griff, but he's not even in this plot). Or Jon if he turns out to be a Targ, which... who knows. But I really don't think Shireen is the true princess they need. Ugh. I don't even.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> You are a: Socialist Anti-Government Bleeding-Heart Liberal
> 
> Collectivism score: 67%
> Authoritarianism score: -33%
> Internationalism score: 0%
> Tribalism score: -100%
> Liberalism score: 17%


WHERE is this link? :mellow:


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> Watching Episode 9's Daenerys parts. What the heck. This is definitely not what happened in the book. I feel like I'm watching Mulan.
> 
> Edit: sorry but omg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was incredible. Why were we talking about the story at the Wall when like this happened


I got CHILLS! Her BABY was back! I actually teared up! My heart was so warm from this lol. Although, I was like, WTF...what about the rest of them? lol


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Stannis: dominant Te, inferior Fi, gone bad.


I protest!

-
@_hoopla_

It's fine, it was a misunderstanding. Usually dreams are a way to process information from our day-to-day, but they do occasionally reflect aspects of who we are or what we feel. I've always experienced vivid dreaming, even lucid dreaming, except the lucid dreams manifest in such a way that I'm aware of the dream but don't have complete control over it. If I do find myself breaking the dream, I more often than not wake up in another dream and the process starts all over again. I remember waking up the other night telling myself, "Okay, I have to make sure this isn't a dream, I'm going to lean against that wall and see if I fall through but damn I keep running but going nowhere everything is glitching this is another dream." That's why sleeping can be so tiring for me 

As for messages: the course of human progress or stagnation, gender roles or lack thereof, what it means to love and hate and move on, how we fit together as a society or find ourselves on the outskirts, so on and so forth. 

About the future and modern age: I briefly talked about it in one of my surveys, so I'll copy/paste it here because I'm feeling lazy 



> Having said that, I’m not against progress, specifically technological progress. It’s always disappointing to me when a show or book heavy with science fiction elements chooses to demonize technology. “Look at the borg! This is the meaning of technology! The loss of our humanity and uniqueness!” I’ve never liked the argument that the more we focus on things like technology and scientific progress, the more we stray from our humanity. The question so rampant in science fiction -- “Are you less human the more removed you are from your body?” -- has always had an obvious answer for me. No, of course not. Humanity is about the mind and the heart, not the body. When I think about the direction we’re taking with technology and science, I think about the way we’ll be forced to reevaluate life and personhood.
> 
> On a practical level, technology can improve our quality of life if used responsibly.
> 
> Those are some of my ridiculous interests and rambles.


Let me know if you mean something else.

And nerd usually means smarty-pants, so


----------



## Persephone Soul

I may sound like a freak, but does anyone's brain bleed at not knowing MORE about everyone? Like, anyone I ever talk to... I want to know their age, name, living region (not exactly where)...social security number and blood type etc! LOL jk. But, it is so HARD for me not having a face to put to a name. I have my own imagination for that, which is fine when dealing with FICTION. But like, you guys are REAL, and I feel like I am talking to people in a masquerade ball. AHH! Like alittlebear, what the heck do you look like. I picture a tanned snow white look. Hoopla? I see a petite and shy brainiack lol. I got to see a face to fair phantom, oswin, and semi saw angelcat. BUT curiosity sure kills THIS cat! lol 

This may also stem from my phobia of clowns. I literally fear them. Painted on smiles and masks that hide real intentions freak the hell outta me. 

Anyway, carry on... :ball:


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> I may sound like a freak, but does anyone's brain bleed at not knowing MORE about everyone? Like, anyone I ever talk to... I want to know their age, name, living region (not exactly where)...social security number and blood type etc! LOL jk. But, it is so HARD for me not having a face to put to a name. I have my own imagination for that, which is fine when dealing with FICTION. But like, you guys are REAL, and I feel like I am talking to people in a masquerade ball. AHH! Like alittlebear, what the heck do you look like. I picture a tanned snow white look. Hoopla? I see a petite and shy brainiack lol. I got to see a face to fair phantom, oswin, and semi saw angelcat. BUT curiosity sure kills THIS cat! lol
> 
> This may also stem from my phobia of clowns. I literally fear them. Painted on smiles and masks that hide real intentions freak the hell outta me.
> 
> Anyway, carry on... :ball:



What do I look like in your head :ghost2:


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> What do I look like in your head :ghost2:


Black hair. Intimidating. Not like you will beat my ass, but like you would roll your eyes at my stupidity LOL. Petite as well...? Very calm aura.


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> Black hair. Intimidating. Not like you will beat my ass, but like you would roll your eyes at my stupidity LOL. Petite as well...? Very calm aura.


It's true. I have black hair. I do roll my eyes (discreetly ) and I am petite (but how petite?) Normally quiet and calm.

:encouragement:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Little late... but...

Name: Ciara Taylor
House: Slytherin
Blood Type: halfblood
Wand: Dragon, Hawthorn wood, reasonably pliant 
Patronus: Wolf
Boggart: Death
BFF: Cho Chang
Boyfriend: George Weasley
Enemies: Lavender Brown, Dean Thomas, Hannah Abbott
Best Class: Defense Against the Dark Arts
Quidditch: Don’t play, but love to watch!

And here is what your Hogwarts pals think of you:

Harry Potter: She helped set Cho and me up. Even if I don't like Cho anymore we still get along.
Ron Weasley: She's a Slytherin! How anyone else is friends with her is beyond me!
Hermione Granger: I suppose she's alright. She's nice, but we aren't meant to be friends.
Ginny Weasley: She's a good Quidditch player. And she makes George very happy.
Fred Weasley: Cute girl, although sometimes she makes me feel like a third wheel.
George Weasley: My girlfriend! I love her so much, and she is the best pranking partner besides George!
Cedric Diggory: Cute girl, very nice.
Cho Chang: I love her! (as a best friend, of course) How she's a snake I will never know.
Luna Lovegood: She's very sweet.
Draco Malfoy: Eh, at the very most an ok.
Pansy Parkinson: Oh, she's aright. - See more at: Fun Quiz - Harry Potter - Your Life At Hogwarts


----------



## Deadly Decorum

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Examples, psychichally doing it, words/images related to the subject. Keeping it short and sweet. Limiting the bullshit.





LuchoIsLurking said:


> Personally, the paper aspect is useless to me. Never gonna need to usr that. Not gonna master in teaching or Math. Not gonna mark another student's stuff. Geometry, might be useful if I was considering Archiecture. Statistics... could be useful for Business. Me also, but it's never gonna be. They just teach from a book, get paid and have a good weekend. Wash, rinse repeat.





LuchoIsLurking said:


> I just go with the flow, write down shit and hope for the best. Make it up as I go along, you know? It's the most natural way for me. Going with the flow.





LuchoIsLurking said:


> I can't? It's screwed up, all in my head. Stuff comes from nowhere. Sometimes not even from this world. Gut feelings almost always right, weird as hell. Best way I can describe it?





LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, the abstract confuses me sometimes. There is no point in me sitting down and reading something, unless I can relate it to the real world/psychically accomplish it. In school, I used to get lost a lot, unless I seen things relevant to the real world.





LuchoIsLurking said:


> Just getting out there and acting so many different people and parts, and watching everything come together. Being the master of disguise. Having fun. Seeing what goes on inside people's minds in the form of screenplays.





LuchoIsLurking said:


> Um... I do shit? I explore? I um.. um.. interact with my environment? Live in the moment? All that.


Can anyone else see arguments for STP over SFJ?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> To me, a lot of this Inuitive stuff in these personality questionnaires seems like forced bullshit. It seems to be like they are over-using their inuition with all their might, so they can avoid a Sensor typing, sometimes unhealthily so they can fit in.
> 
> The Inuitive bias is unbelieveable. People think that because they can produce ideas, produce visions and insights, that they're better than people who use insights from the real world, or have two feet on the ground and have enough gusto to impliment those ideas and make them work in the real world.
> 
> It's stupid, everyone is different for a reason.


I also question the validity of questionnaires for the same reasons. The Intuitive Ideal is a real thing. I may have... exaggerated myself in a questionnaire before. Whoops. I'm too honest. 

The intuitive bias is why sensors mistype as or want to be Ns. They're stereotyped as shallow, uncreative and unintelligent. That sounds like fun.

Yeah, there's certainly this hierarchy with N's on the top and S(I)'s on the bottom. Understanding each other's strengths and weaknesses so you can merge with them is more useful than elitism.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I learned Spanish, until I had to stop. Learned French, forget a lot of it and I know some Portuguese. Portuguese will be useful because there are a bunch of Portuguese speaking immigrants living around here. The same thing happened to me. I stopped languages before because my school never offered them, but I am quite self-taught.


Why did you have to quit learning Spanish?

Do you ever learn just for the sake of it or mostly just for the practical application? 

Formal learning is nice, but self education for life. School doesn't have to end learning. :glee:



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes. I have no problem with Inuition. Inuition can incredibly useful, but a lot of Inuitives, especially underdeveloped ones, or ones who don't use their Sensory side a lot, can't/won't impliment their plans into the real world and make good use of them. This is where the money lies. Entrepeneurship.


Intuitives can provide us the grand ol' ideas, and we can invent something useful out of them. We get the dirty work. We'll be rich. 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I tend to be good at bullshitting, so storytelling comes naturally, lol. When I was a kid, I got into trouble a lot, so I made up stories on the spot of how it wasn't me, or how X was involved and what they done etc. I got off with a lot because of that.


I was a goody goody lol. My peers adored that. I also sucked at lying. I had to learn how to because it's a useful skill. Much better at it, but when I fail, it's a sight to behold. We were childhood opposites. 

I do like story telling though. I bet yours are interesting; you sound like quite the shows man.

Y


LuchoIsLurking said:


> eah, sometimes I can sit for hours picking apart things to see how they work and put them back together. Sometimes I sit, and analyse things that happened that day to see if they make any logical sense. It's not my most natural form, though. I don't do that all the time, but I do it a lot. I seem to spend a lot of time in the real world, absorbing reality, talking to people, but I'm not shallow. I still know.


You're not shallow, no. Those people don't know what they're smoking.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I mean, my thoughts easily distract me, and blank out what I am thinking, when I try think sometimes. It's a mind block. I ignore my thoughts a lot that come from nowhere, it's like I don't control my own mind. Thoughts are weird. You own them, but you don't, it's confusing.


I get you now. Random, uncontrollable thoughts to me are beautiful, because they spark inspiration, beauty and insight I never knew existed. Also creativity. This side of me would never exist if it weren't for those random flashes of beauty. Sometimes a loss of control leads you to where you need to be. Thanks for putting a dark psychological thriller spin on it though. :ssad:

My random thoughts when gone sour are more like... anxiety rooted or negative. That is always shit. Do you have any outlets for when your mind is a rollercoaster? Helps you master the control you desire. Unless it's insomnia induced. Fuck insomnia. 

Just to freak you out over the idea that we cannot control our thoughts a bit more:

Unconscious thought theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(theory's existence has been questioned, but I'm keeping with the theme)

We are thinking without even realizing it. Without our intention or comprehension. Minds are powerful things.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Honestly? Shit out the ordinary, distrusting someone, stuff people say that makes no sense, sometimes songs, motives and crime shows/movies mostly.


Distrusting someone? In a paranoid way? Like people are out to mess with you? Just throwing shit out the window here.
I'd love some crime theories. Serial killers are interesting. 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Sense from the common man. Obvious stuff, like not runnung across the road when a car. The sad thing is, some people still don't have common sense engrained in their psyches. So many unessecary deaths, because dumbasses think they know best.


Jumping in without thinking things through can be comedic (I demonstrated that today) but you gave it a tragic twist. Cold move.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I'm certain I'm not an ENTP. And if you count Fe as this people pleasing sheep function where all its users want to change the world for a greater good and be a harmonious member of society and everything to be rainbows and butterflies and for everyone to be good and get along, like a humanitarian's wet dream, then I don't think I am an Fe-Dom in that context either.


Nah I wouldn't say Fe is sheep-like. Harmonious member for society? ...Yeah pm. You described a utopia so the realistic possibility of such a thing happening is obsolete, but I can dig it. I'll be your humanitarian wet dream.

How do you personally think you relate to Fe?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Which is weird, because Don Corleone, nothing like that. He was a Mafia Boss. He was a "bad" man, yet he oozed Fe. I know he was a movie character, but there are loads of "bad, manipulative" Fe-Doms (particularly) ENFJs out there, who are nothing like the typical ENFJ Humanitarian, yet they are still ENFJs. They just don't give a shit about humanitarian work, nor see the benefit in it. Which makes sense, because this world is meant to be broken, and will never be fixed.


Can't say I agree this world is meant to be broken, but that's the humanitarian idealist in me. Rainbows for all! 

Unhealthy Fe is a hellhole. Manipulative, to "OMG WHY DO YOU HATE ME LOVE ME LOVE" clinginess to backstabbing rumor starter. Any serial killers you've theorized as Fe doms? 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> weird shit from another world


I am intrigued. Explain. Like... weird cultural shit in Japan or some ancient mystery in a world that has just been discovered?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Feminism? I like you. You aren't one of these hardcore bitches who impliments their shit on others and forces them to think that way. I am for equal rights for both genders, but not one trying to fuck the other over with their hardcire beliefs. You know?


You sound surprised. 

I'm pretty firm on some things... and sometimes it pisses ppl off but it's never my intention to force beliefs on people. I just don't want to hear disgusting shit about date rape victims asking for it like I did in High School. Hardcore feminists are never convincing. Most people assume they escaped from bedlams.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yeah, it depends on your upbringing, though Danny Trejo (you know, the actor? Machete?). He had quite a troubled upbringing, had a "rough" start, but he turned out decent.


Eminem too. I get the feeling you dig him somehow.

Unfortunately the troubled background didn't work out for the brilliant mind of Charles Manson.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> Maybe? I dunno. You're the "expert"


Ha why does everyone say this. I'm not particularly that good at this. I think you're figuring this all out better than you think.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> If I see something, I can compare it to anither a like object. I can compare and contrast 15 years ago with now.


I don't remember what happened 15 years ago.

Want to give some examples? I enjoy those, could you tell?



LuchoIsLurking said:


> All I can say. This post took me almost 2 hours to write, lol. Good way to pass the time eh?


Thank you for your patience (I know you were almost out of gas).

I like you too, btw. You have a neat way of looking at things.

Whatever your type, you're the one to pick whatever fits best for you. You're seeming to understand this pretty well.


----------



## Persephone Soul

@hoopla , you mentioned @fair phantom having an elfish beauty (or something like that). I do too!! EverytimeI am on my Pinterest feeds and see a red haired elfish woman, I think of her! haha.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> I protest!


Protest noted. Doesn't change a thing. LOL



SugarPlum said:


> I may sound like a freak, but does anyone's brain bleed at not knowing MORE about everyone? Like, anyone I ever talk to... I want to know their age, name, living region (not exactly where)...social security number and blood type etc! LOL jk. But, it is so HARD for me not having a face to put to a name. I have my own imagination for that, which is fine when dealing with FICTION. But like, you guys are REAL, and I feel like I am talking to people in a masquerade ball. AHH! Like alittlebear, what the heck do you look like. I picture a tanned snow white look. Hoopla? I see a petite and shy brainiack lol. I got to see a face to fair phantom, oswin, and semi saw angelcat. BUT curiosity sure kills THIS cat! lol


I often wonder what people look like (and am usually wrong in my guesses) but other than that, no, I don't really feel a burning need to know too much about people online.


----------



## Darkbloom

@SugarPlum,can relate soooo much lol
I feel like most important aspects of people are missing here,not just appearance though(although I find style VERY important) but body language,actual relationships,day to day conversations,I NEED it


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Protest noted. Doesn't change a thing. LOL.


Of course, I know what you're like :tranquillity:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> I may sound like a freak, but does anyone's brain bleed at not knowing MORE about everyone? Like, anyone I ever talk to... I want to know their age, name, living region (not exactly where)...social security number and blood type etc! LOL jk. But, it is so HARD for me not having a face to put to a name. I have my own imagination for that, which is fine when dealing with FICTION. But like, you guys are REAL, and I feel like I am talking to people in a masquerade ball. AHH! Like alittlebear, what the heck do you look like. I picture a tanned snow white look. Hoopla? I see a petite and shy brainiack lol. I got to see a face to fair phantom, oswin, and semi saw angelcat. BUT curiosity sure kills THIS cat! lol
> 
> This may also stem from my phobia of clowns. I literally fear them. Painted on smiles and masks that hide real intentions freak the hell outta me.
> 
> Anyway, carry on... :ball:


You are so cute, lol. 

I see a jovial person with warms smiles and ebullient laughter. Rosy cheeks and long honey locks. Please have dimples.

...What does a braniac look like?

Petite yes. I have... to remind myself to eat. It blows. I was skinny the majority of my life, and gained 55 pounds due to a former medication change. What a metamorphosis. That was several years ago. I reverted back into that waif. I'm for body diversity though. Everyone show me your ribcages and muffin tops.

...Maybe I'll display a self portrait. 

Also... this may be Fe? The data you want comes across as objective value, especially due to the impatient urgency. Could be wrong though.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Watching Episode 9's Daenerys parts. What the heck. This is definitely not what happened in the book. *I feel like I'm watching Mulan.*
> 
> Edit: sorry but omg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was incredible. Why were we talking about the story at the Wall when like this happened


xD

Because Wall scene had ice zombies.
@angelcat said something about how for NP author he writes a lot sensors. I realized characters I least enjoy making are NPs. :| Most fun to create are SPs and TJs - least like me.



hoopla said:


> I didn't even realize dreams... meant anything until the concept was revealed. I thought they were just bits of your day twisted around into something deeper... so I guess I knew they had a meaning, but not in the unconscious mind angle. I've never had vivid or interesting dreams, so.
> 
> I would rather discuss daydreaming than dreams. I do believe dreams can serve a valid tool for exploration of the conscious mind or insights into your soul/psyche or life in general. It's just not my ilk.


I don't know what my **** high tech Hell dreams says abou my consciousness :sad:



SugarPlum said:


> WHERE is this link? :mellow:


5 Dimensional Policial Compass



SugarPlum said:


> I may sound like a freak, but does anyone's brain bleed at not knowing MORE about everyone? Like, anyone I ever talk to... I want to know their age, name, living region (not exactly where)...social security number and blood type etc! LOL jk. But, it is so HARD for me not having a face to put to a name. I have my own imagination for that, which is fine when dealing with FICTION. But like, you guys are REAL, and I feel like I am talking to people in a masquerade ball. AHH! Like alittlebear, what the heck do you look like. I picture a tanned snow white look. Hoopla? I see a petite and shy brainiack lol. I got to see a face to fair phantom, oswin, and semi saw angelcat. BUT curiosity sure kills THIS cat! lol
> 
> This may also stem from my phobia of clowns. I literally fear them. Painted on smiles and masks that hide real intentions freak the hell outta me.
> 
> Anyway, carry on... :ball:


Nah, I'm OK with vague details. Not that I am not curious but I don't like forcing any details out of people - online or IRL. I like slowly building a "picture" of person. I’m a fast movin’ gal who likes them slow~



shinynotshiny said:


> What do I look like in your head :ghost2:












@SugarPlum why do u get George boyfriend and I got Draco? I picked George for date!!

@hoopla


> Can anyone else see arguments for STP over SFJ?


Now he looks like SP. I swear, last questionnaire looked Si>Ne hardcore! Fe and Ti for sure, though. Both here and in questionnaire.



> I mean, my thoughts easily distract me, and blank out what I am thinking, when I try think sometimes. It's a mind block. I ignore my thoughts a lot that come from nowhere, it's like I don't control my own mind. Thoughts are weird. You own them, but you don't, it's confusing.





> I get you now. Random, uncontrollable thoughts to me are beautiful, because they spark inspiration, beauty and insight I never knew existed. Also creativity. This side of me would never exist if it weren't for those random flashes of beauty. Sometimes a loss of control leads you to where you need to be. Thanks for putting a dark psychological thriller spin on it though.
> 
> My random thoughts when gone sour are more like... anxiety rooted or negative. That is always shit. Do you have any outlets for when your mind is a rollercoaster? Helps you master the control you desire. Unless it's insomnia induced. Fuck insomnia.
> 
> Just to freak you out over the idea that we cannot control our thoughts a bit more:
> 
> Unconscious thought theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> (theory's existence has been questioned, but I'm keeping with the theme)
> 
> We are thinking without even realizing it. Without our intention or comprehension. Minds are powerful things.


I'm incredibly confused here because are you implying that you control most of your thoughts and random "out of nowhere" thoughts are not normal?

@LuchoIsLurking have you tried this yet - http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html - which loop to do relate the most?


----------



## Darkbloom

For me I think it's Fe because online I realize how important some things I've been taking for granted are,like knowing small things about person,details,or just seeing them or like,seeing their clothes so you can compliment them on that if there's nothing else to say,or significant eye contact,touch,etc.,knowing what they like
@hoopla @SugarPlum-just in case


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> xD
> 
> Because Wall scene had ice zombies.
> @angelcat said something about how for NP author he writes a lot sensors. I realized characters I least enjoy making are NPs. :| Most fun to create are SPs and TJs - least like me.
> 
> 
> I don't know what my **** high tech Hell dreams says abou my consciousness :sad:
> 
> 
> 5 Dimensional Policial Compass
> 
> 
> Nah, I'm OK with vague details. Not that I am not curious but I don't like forcing any details out of people - online or IRL. I like slowly building a "picture" of person. I’m a fast movin’ gal who likes them slow~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @SugarPlum why do u get George boyfriend and I got Draco? I picked George for date!!
> @hoopla
> Can anyone else see arguments for STP over SFJ?
> Now he looks like SP. I swear, last questionnaire looked Si>Ne hardcore! Fe and Ti for sure, though. Both here and in questionnaire.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm incredibly confused here because are you implying that you control most of your thoughts and random "out of nowhere" thoughts are not normal?
> @LuchoIsLurking have you tried this yet - http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html - which loop to do relate the most?


Define abnormal.

The creative ones or anything that makes see life in some different direction or allows me to think about life in general... or just weird random thoughts, are healthy.

My uncontrollable dark thoughts... not positive, but unsure if I would consider them abnormal. 

By anxiety I meant that as a catchall term (though I've had abnormal anxiety thoughts sure. Fun), not the DSM definition.

As for Lucho, plot twist, right? 

We both thought Te dom at first, actually. I can't see how I concluded that now.

I like to consider questionnaires preliminary typings; conjectures. I don't think questionnaires are always the best ways of measuring people. For some, sure. For others, it's best to watch them interact with others. Like in his case. 

I think it was all the contrast/compare stuff. And when he was like "this pic makes me think furbies".

He seems to have that seize the day, live life to the fullest moto actualized to a T. I also think Myers Briggs was wrong in their assertion that N= big picture. I apply big picture to Se. I think his explanations of his thoughts are Ni inferior. 

Once we've dug deeper, we've realized we may have been wrong. I love when I change my perception on someone's type. People are interesting.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@SugarPlum I look like the love child of Luna Lovegood and Neville Longbottom. I'm the most white-passing a mixed race person can get. And I'm very tiny (though sometimes my face isn't? idk). It's sweet you think I look like Snow White, though. 

Oh, and when it comes to knowing more about people... I feel as if I know who they are just by speaking with them. I like to spend more time with them, but they aren't a mystery to me. I can usually find some glimpse of what I feel is their "soul" from first meeting. Especially kind people. People who are too kind or who are too unkind I am probably most interested in, because I usually need to see the faults of the naturally kind person to get a better idea of the real them (especially if they're faking the kindness, I don't test it but I have to see what makes it break) and for the unkind person I need to keep seeing them until the muck breaks and their brightness comes through. 

It sounds complicated but it's not. It's just what I do, I guess.


----------



## Persephone Soul

@hoopla , hah! Close enough. No prominant dimples, but faint ones... They may just be hiding under the fullness of my face lol

It may be Fe. Who knows. And wow, thanks for sharing! Brainiac? Hmmm, IDK really. It is kind of an essence. Kind of like Shiny's calm aura. I see a Ti aura, HAH. Brown hair?

and just to clarify, please no one feel pressured to share details etc. My need for details is more for people in my life, not online as much. That is a little invading. I mostly am just curious WHAT THE HECK EVERYONE LOOKS LIKE! Not to judge ( I truly think every single person is beautifully made. My God doesn't make flaws. There is a reason everyone has what we humans call flaws, but those reasons are His. I would never even think of judging Gods art. ). And this is coming from a 600lb chick, but hey..I am healthy, and lovely  lol. 

@LuchoIsLerking we were just talkin about STP. FE/Ti and Se/Ni.

I am about to listen to that Michael Pierce video (love his stuff), and confirm or deny Introversion. I still am 99.9% I am one. Here-goes...

EDIT: @alittlebear, yeah, I guess the tanned snow white, is because she is SO FAIR. Even for a white person. I have her porcelain skin. I just see you like her, but not really fair like her. Does your hair resemble hers at ALL? lol . And yeah, I get what you're saying about knowing a person. I am totally able to know their 'character' right off the bat. What 'kind' of person they are. But, I like to hear stories, mostly to see if I relate. But also, I just love hearing the backstory. Like, I see them physically, I get a vibe of their character (this I would equate to MBTI), but now I need the backstory. The 'Why' 's (the Enneagram, if you will). Then I will have the whole package. The first 2 happen right off the bat, but I need the 3rd, for a full picture.

@Greyhart HAH. Sorry. I actually picked Cedric.

@Living dead , yeah, that isn't me at all.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@SugarPlum yes brown hair. I've been lazy and choosing not to dye it.

It was black before, and I've dyed it about 50 different shades of red.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> Define abnormal.
> 
> The creative ones or anything that makes see life in some different direction or allows me to think about life in general... or just weird random thoughts, are healthy.
> 
> My uncontrollable dark thoughts... not positive, but unsure if I would consider them abnormal.
> 
> By anxiety I meant that as a catchall term (though I've had abnormal anxiety thoughts sure. Fun), not the DSM definition.


Well... My anxiety is usually a feeling not a thought. For example I just suddenly feel like I am in danger or something horrible is about to happen (it doesn't, it's anxiety). This doesn't bring any specific thought, just uncontrollable feeling hence why when this started I thought I am experiencing early symptoms of schizophrenia - having a feeling without a specific origin is alien to me.

In comparison, having a thought without origin is completely routine. By abnormal... I mean, well. Most of my thoughts don't seem like I control them? My brain just throws thoughts at me normally. Like I was cooking a supper and I thought how popularity doesn't mean quality but also doesn't defy it, and that good things don't age, and that my favorite Beatles song is Revolution. It's normal train of thoughts for me, most thoughts just pop into my head like that. Unless I am concentrating on something, of course. Like when reading and learning something I think about it but random thoughts are likely to pop in too, hence why I sometimes pause what I am doing and then forget to resume because I chased a thought bunny. I am a bit worried now because I really didn't think about this as not normal, that not everyone routinely thinks by getting random thoughts and following them.

@SugarPlum here's to quell your anxiety http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...4-video-questionnaire-im-obnoxious-point.html


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> I'll try this as well, if you don't mind. Don't know how in depth my answers can be, but here we go.
> 
> Number 2 would be my choice, definitely. Visiting foreign countries and seeing another part of the world... It's hard to explain, really, but that will help broaden my mind and, silly as it is, that really is what I crave... to understand the world on a deeper level, to know it. (Not to mention being able to meet new people and experience a different culture, get out of seeing my own culture as the universal norm as I subsonsciously do, but that's quite a given.)
> 
> Also, trekking is wonderful. Oh, trekking. (I mean... It's sad, I can't trek now, but a year or so ago I wouldn't have a problem walking for hours on end. That would be quite lovely, walking in a new world, being given time to process it and take it all in.)
> 
> I would like to camp, but... I mean, I can do that any time. I certainly would not choose that over going to some place different, having the chance to embrace another part of the world (my mind feels what I mean, but it's hard to relay through text). As for vacationing... meh. No. I don't need relaxation, I need my mind opened. I can relax in my dorm room. (The sad thing is, relaxation is my parent's ideal. Sigh. I don't know how I'm going to get to widen my mind as I want to, but... I'll have to find some way. Hah. Queue the anxiety.)
> 
> And... That's about it? Hmm. Sorry, it's not as long as the others' were I fear.


I think maybe this is a sort of Ni-Fe thing, but it depends on your motivations for wanting to expand your mind - the meeting new people is probably Fe plus SO variant instinct. Understanding the world on a deeper level seems to be an Ni trait (I want to understand the non-world, which may be a lack of Se?). No signs of Si at all.

No, it was a good length, don't worry! :ghost: It's the detail, not the length, that matters.



hoopla said:


> I fucked up and thought she meant daydreaming. That's how I personally daydream or see the world in a new way. I'm going to die of embarrassment.
> 
> typing based on actual dreams.... would be interesting, but yes, bad idea.
> 
> I actually wasn't referring to the roleplaying game aspect though.


Ahh, okay, that makes more sense. Yeah, dreams are just... too incomprehensible (although I love them) to be helpful.

What was the roleplay comment about then?



Greyhart said:


> This is problematic. Inter-dimensional travel, I mean. We don't know what kinds of laws of physics would work there. Bonds between your molecules could collapse or even your atoms could be not compatible with it. I thought about time manipulation, it's useful but too... meddle-y. Remember Hermione? I'd be tempted to just meddle with everything, constantly rewind events to see how I can change them and what it will lead to. For me other perfect powers would be telepathy (including influencing, not just reading), telekinesis (well-rounded multi-purpose power), and shapeshifting - waking up with perfect hair and makeup, yey!
> 
> 
> U socialist sister too?


Ah, this is true. Okay, if I would remain the same while I travelled, it would be great. I think with the time thing, it might be a good way to learn to accept the imperfect... although I wouldn't want to redo things much, but rather make time last longer.

Shapeshifting I would love. To be able to become anything would be a great thing - or even disappear when you didn't want to have to deal with life for a while. I'm not so into telekinesis or telepathy, because it almost feels like cheating, although I could see it having good impacts on the world in the right hands... but then, should anyone have that level of control over others?

Yeah, socialism seems like a good enough idea. I don't really know too much about politics, though.



ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I guess I took the whole immersion thing to be a form of Si "mythologization", or really that the strongly personal nature of my interpretations was Si rather than some other introverted function.
> 
> Also, I was increasingly convinced that I had T/F on a similar level, and was a perceiving-dom.
> 
> That's a harder choice than I would expect. People who ignore facts irritate the hell out of me, especially because getting them to see reason in order to move the discussion forward is so freaking useless, you basically hit a wall. Even worse when they won't even listen to your view because they see the premises as faulty and their only reasons _why_ they're faulty is either 1) some belief won't allow them to even consider your alternative or 2) they're convinced of faulty, possibly outdated facts and believe you're the one in the wrong.
> 
> At the same time...I've heard all about trolling INFPs by telling them their favorite whatever sucks, or dissecting all the reasons why it sucks. And honestly, I do fear that. Mostly from a standpoint of shame, that I'm somehow an awful, stupid person for ever liking something that's clearly so terrible. While I'm not particularly reactive about it, it would bother me. One thing about me is that I take criticism pretty personally, and that includes criticism of things I like - or at least, I think I would. I don't share preferences mainly to avoid stuff like this.


Woah, the way you approach it, it really comes across as potentially Te dominance. The Fi part especially seems like a sort of deep-rooted fear of inferiority which is commonly associated with inferior functions. The Te part seems more of a healthy approach and applied more naturally.

This is all very loose analysis though. What do you think of ESTJ?



Curiphant said:


> I need to take a break from watching this show and so I'm going hijack this also.
> 
> I'd pick two definitely because I don't want to be stuck on an island that's probably not interactive or you just stare at how pretty the beach is. The breakfast is a nice deal though. But like holiday resorts sound so… boring. I like breakfast. Like really like breakfast. I love waking up because breakfast is my favorite meal. Even though I have the same thing everyday.
> 
> And a camping trip would be interesting if I wanted to be in a reflective mood but walking around a forest and more forest and nature in a repetitive manner would also be boring. I could walk and walk… Maybe. With thoughts. I'd pick this maybe if I just had gotten out of something stressful.
> 
> So that leaves two because wow culture! And hotels. I love sleeping in different beds. Maybe seeing awe-inspiring things of different cultures would impart something on me. My dad said that he understands my mom after he visits Japan so maybe I'll understand people more… It'd be educational.
> 
> Actually maybe I'll go back to one because I wouldn't want to sit a car all day, traveling between places. But my mom has ingrained a fear of nature in me.
> 
> I don't like traveling darn it. Can I make my own choice?
> 
> I'd want to visit a foreign country but stay in one place to soak up that one countries' culture with a friend because just seeing their sights… That's too much of a shallow understanding. And I need a friend for emotional support.
> 
> I change my answer. I'd travel through nature because I hate sitting in cars and I can look up famous sites. I'd want to interact with people more than as a tourist or not at all. Camping through nature would force me to appreciate the environment.


Yeah, breakfast is the best!

Overall, this seems fairly social Fi with some Se to me. The focus on people, on travelling through nature, on seeing things, sleeping in different beds etc. More Fi than Se though. Soft and friendly Fi. I don't see much to oppose ISFP really! :ghost:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@SugarPlum My hair isn't really something out of a Disney movie. Think more... I actually don't know. They don't have ratty hair like mine on television. 

What do you mean by seeking their character?

I guess I can see that. It's how they treat others, usually. Do they give that "weird" girl a disdainful glare? Then they're not as nice as all their friends are treating them as. How gentle are they, how attentively do they listen to others, do they hold the door?

Too many people disappoint, unfortunately. 

But... Others don't. They are kind; they glow. They thank the bus driver and genuinely say something friendly to the handicapped student on the sidewalk. They walk in kindness. These people scare me, honestly, because it's hard for me to believe that someone can be _truly kind_... And yet they're there, people who are filled with light without knowing and making the world a better place without even trying to.


----------



## owlet

SugarPlum said:


> I may sound like a freak, but does anyone's brain bleed at not knowing MORE about everyone? Like, anyone I ever talk to... I want to know their age, name, living region (not exactly where)...social security number and blood type etc! LOL jk. But, it is so HARD for me not having a face to put to a name. I have my own imagination for that, which is fine when dealing with FICTION. But like, you guys are REAL, and I feel like I am talking to people in a masquerade ball. AHH! Like alittlebear, what the heck do you look like. I picture a tanned snow white look. Hoopla? I see a petite and shy brainiack lol. I got to see a face to fair phantom, oswin, and semi saw angelcat. BUT curiosity sure kills THIS cat! lol
> 
> This may also stem from my phobia of clowns. I literally fear them. Painted on smiles and masks that hide real intentions freak the hell outta me.
> 
> Anyway, carry on... :ball:


I just assume everyone looks like their avatar (so I keep accidentally referring to @shinynotshiny as a he in my head). Yes, @tine is an anthropomorphic snail and @hoopla is a geometric shape.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> I just assume everyone looks like their avatar (so I keep accidentally referring to @_shinynotshiny_ as a he in my head).


I do not mind this :gentleman:


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Ah, this is true. Okay, if I would remain the same while I travelled, it would be great. I think with the time thing, it might be a good way to learn to accept the imperfect... although I wouldn't want to redo things much, but rather make time last longer.
> 
> Shapeshifting I would love. To be able to become anything would be a great thing - or even disappear when you didn't want to have to deal with life for a while(2). I'm not so into telekinesis or telepathy, because it almost feels like cheating(1), although I could see it having good impacts on the world in the right hands... but then, should anyone have that level of control over others?


(1) I'd totally use telepathy to establish my corporate empire and use it as a platform to make a change. Well, you could fly with telekinesis. Reflect bullets and missiles. And wouldn't need to move from your couch to bring a snack from kitchen.
(2) For shapeshifting I'd still find a way to cheat myself in somewhere where I could stir some changes. Not sure for good or for bad but stirring things sounds like what power is for.



> Overall, this seems fairly social Fi with some Se to me. The focus on people, on travelling through nature, on seeing things, sleeping in different beds etc. More Fi than Se though. Soft and friendly Fi. I don't see much to oppose ISFP really! :ghost:


Do mine oppose ENTP?

_______________

My cousin linked me this






I love these 2 idiots :sorrow:


----------



## Persephone Soul

@Greyhart ! There you are! I flippin LOVE your accent. 

I literally have been smiling so big for the first 4 mins, that my son just came in and was like, "Why are you smiling so big mommy? Who is that? Your friend? She looks smart. I like her." 

hahahahaha :rolling:


----------



## Gentleman

Does anyone in this thread want to make an attempt at typing me? I've been trying to figure out my type for quite a while now. According to dichotomies I'm a clear IXTJ, but when function theory gets thrown in I'm all over the place. I've been typed as all sixteen types. My enneatype is definitely 6, and my neuroticism score is very high on the big five.


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> @Greyhart ! There you are! I flippin LOVE your accent.
> 
> I literally have been smiling so big for the first 4 mins, that my son just came in and was like, "Why are you smiling so big mommy? Who is that? Your friend? *She looks smart. I like her.*"
> 
> hahahahaha :rolling:


I like your son.


----------



## Greyhart

Gentleman said:


> Does anyone in this thread want to make an attempt at typing me? I've been trying to figure out my type for quite a while now. According to dichotomies I'm a clear IXTJ, but when function theory gets thrown in I'm all over the place. I've been typed as all sixteen types. My enneatype is definitely 6, and my neuroticism score is very high on the big five.


For starters try @laurie17 mini questionnaire that she accidentally started


> Say you were given the choice of a few different places you could travel to - 1. a holiday resort on a small inhabited island of your choosing, right next to a beach, with inclusive breakfast, 2. a trekking holiday around a large foreign country of your choosing, going around the most famous places and staying in hostels, 3. a camping trip around a country of your choice, where you would live in nature for the holiday.
> 
> Try to answer in a train of thought sort of way so it's completely unedited.


----------



## Persephone Soul

laurie17 said:


> I just assume everyone looks like their avatar (so I keep accidentally referring to @shinynotshiny as a he in my head). Yes, @tine is an anthropomorphic snail and @hoopla is a geometric shape.


Hahh!! I start to do this too at times. Then I am like, NO.. Shiny is not a him! Then I go back to what my imagination has cooked up. BUt I am finally getting faces! Yeee!


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> I do not mind this :gentleman:



You're bearded Spock and that's pretty darn cool!



Greyhart said:


> (1) I'd totally use telepathy to establish my corporate empire and use it as a platform to make a change. Well, you could fly with telekinesis. Reflect bullets and missiles. And wouldn't need to move from your couch to bring a snack from kitchen.
> (2) For shapeshifting I'd still find a way to cheat myself in somewhere where I could stir some changes. Not sure for good or for bad but stirring things sounds like what power is for.
> 
> 
> Do mine oppose ENTP?
> 
> _______________
> 
> My cousin linked me this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love these 2 idiots :sorrow:


Ah, I'm scared of heights so no flying for me... I think telekinesis would probably make me be able to do things like reach through glass (vibrate my cells quick enough to avoid the glass particles) to stroke cats (I saw a kitten in a bookshop window today and was too nervous to go in and stroke it). My dreams are simple.
It's good to aspire to change. I was told to stop being so critical, but I argued that's how we make change: by being dissatisfied with how things are. We can't just go 'well, this bit's okay so it's fine'.

No, I think you seem fairly solidly ENTP so far as I can tell! Definite Ne and no real signs of Fi-Te going on, so yes, ENTP.

Yay! Fry and Laurie are amazing. Have you seen Jeeves and Wooster? You'd probably like it :ghost:


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> No that's low order (probably inferior) Ne.
> 
> Compare to Lucho's recent post. He's Ni.


Explain why.
I honestly don't relate that much to inferior Ne. The catastrophizing...I don't see myself doing that. I can see how looking at someone and saying, "He might be a serial killer!" would be such...but, you know, I didn't even go to, "Maybe he's going to kill me serially". It was more like, "Oh, dear, a serial killer" and moved on. I mean, I kept thinking, "Hm, do you think in actuality he is a serial killer?" as you saw in that comment, and tried to figure out if it was likely or not (answer: probably not but I'd play it safe anyways), but ...I don't know, it feels different from what I perceive inferior Ne as doing.

I'm not saying that particular thing was Ni, either...I'm not sure, it could be Fe even, or just nothing) But I'm not convinced it was inferior Ne. Not relating to inferior Ne was the main reason I didn't feel ISFJ fit and why ESFJ felt much better. I don't _think_ I do the inferior Ne thing but if you can explain how I do, maybe I do?


----------



## Immolate

A lot of the "Ni" here is not Ni.

Going back to sleep now.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> A lot of the "Ni" here is not Ni.
> 
> Going back to sleep now.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


>


You, ma'am, are brilliant. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> A lot of the "Ni" here is not Ni.
> 
> Going back to sleep now.


I'm not saying it is Ni, I'm trying to figure out if there is an element of Ni to it)
(sorry if that is not what you meant...I'm just feeling like maybe people aren't reading the words I'm using)
Sleep well)


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, forget my serial killer thing, I don't think I explained that accurately.
Someone just has to explain Ni to me and how you know if you use it.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Ok, forget my serial killer thing, I don't think I explained that accurately.
> Someone just has to explain Ni to me and how you know if you use it.


No, you didn't, but it was funny, in a sort of Addams Family macabre way. :wink:

Well, I did explain Ni a bit back, but I can reiterate, if you like? Ni on the outside looks, well, odd, yes, but with it, it's like you want meaning and significance in things, whereas Ne assumes things have significance. It's why Ni heavy users can see symbolism better than others, because that's all they see in an object.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> No, you didn't, but it was funny, in a sort of Addams Family macabre way. :wink:
> 
> Well, I did explain Ni a bit back, but I can reiterate, if you like? Ni on the outside looks, well, odd, yes, but with it, it's like you want meaning and significance in things, whereas Ne assumes things have significance. It's why Ni heavy users can see symbolism better than others, because that's all they see in an object.


I'm not really seeing a difference between:
"Symbolism is all you see in an object"
and
"Assuming things have significance"

sorry, I know I should read Jung at this point, I just...it should be easier)


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I'm not really seeing a difference between:
> "Symbolism is all you see in an object"
> and
> "Assuming things have significance"
> 
> sorry, I know I should read Jung at this point, I just...it should be easier)


Oh please, I haven't read Jung's work first hand either, all my information is from this site, @angelcat, or my own conclusions. As for your dilemma, the difference is that Ne gets swarmed by many possibilities, for better or worse, whereas Ni focuses on one, for better or for worse. Think the difference between experiencing multiple things at once, and having a deep obsession grow and fester. Ni looks upon specific things and says they're more meaningful than others, and Ne rebutts with the idea that another thing may have more meaning than that. Does that make sense?


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Oh please, I haven't read Jung's work first hand either, all my information is from this site, @angelcat, or my own conclusions. As for your dilemma, the difference is that Ne gets swarmed by many possibilities, for better or worse, whereas Ni focuses on one, for better or for worse. Think the difference between experiencing multiple things at once, and having a deep obsession grow and fester. Ni looks upon specific things and says they're more meaningful than others, and Ne rebutts with the idea that another thing may have more meaning than that. Does that make sense?


It makes sense)
Which is not to imply that I definitely know which one I use, but...it makes sense) Thanks)


----------



## Tad Cooper

ElliCat said:


> @_hoopla_ @_Curiphant_ Noooo I wrote it when I was in a hurry and I knew I shouldn't've!! I was being sarcastic with the parts you two took issue with! Sorry I didn't make it clearer - I was trying to point out how short-sighted I find that kind of mentality.
> 
> 
> It's funny, I've gotten much more grief from meat eaters than from vegetarians/vegans. I guess they're on the defensive and trying to stop me before I get preachy, not realising that I don't preach. :-/ I don't have any vegan friends though (at least none that I'm aware of). Maybe that's why.


I've never been properly preached at by a meat eater (my brother in law jokes how I need to eat meat etc but doesnt care either way). The ones I know are actually really considerate and ask if it's okay if they eat/cook meat around me (to which I tend to reply that its fine and would they like me to help). 
I think vegans maybe have a bit more of an extreme view or are more prone to it? I havent met any vegans who arent part of something like PETA etc (although Im friends with them and theyre nice people, just a bit extreme for me in some areas).

EDIT: Page 800!


----------



## Dangerose

So close to 1000!)


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ hmm, I've had to think on your response. I can't lie... It would be more about perceiving and understanding the world more deeply for me than it would be about connecting with people. As my entire education has been, as my current education is, as every trip I make is. People are lovely, but I don't go out into the world to connect with them. I go out into the world to learn, to understand beyond. I live to help, but I experience to know. (It's actually a fault of mine. I am far too in-my-head, it makes me awkward with people, it makes me a lot more whimsical seeming than I would like.) (Then again, I say this as a person who has been confined to the house for almost a week, who might have forgotten now how she feels in public.)


Maybe the perception of the world is more on the Ni axis then? That sounds quite Ni-Ti to me (nooo, this is what made me think INFJ for you before, but your Fe seems very strong... now I'm hovering in between... Maybe Fe dominant with a good connection to inferior Ti makes sense? I'll have to think on it for a while).



Greyhart said:


> I'm way worse with bacteria heh but bugs are horrible. I can suck it up and deal with bugs, though. Recently a things crawled over my pillow I killed it, proclaimed that I won't sleep on my bed ever again ever, in a few hours calmed down and figured whatever fuck it. I do check my bed each time I wake up at night now >_>
> 
> 
> Aaaah, so that how it is. My phobias are repulsion/disgust based, yes.


Haha, I know the feeling. When I had cockroaches in my apartment in Japan, I was at the point of asking to stay at my friend's place instead, because the idea of facing another one was too much. Then I talked it over with my mum, calmed down and slept peacefully (albeit wrapped from head to toe in a sheet with the air conditioning on full blast).

I actually didn't know about the disgust thing being a phobia until my friend told me - and that was the exact thing I had with wasps at the time (I had yet to encounter Nagoya cockroaches). It's a useful way of telling what's a normal fear and what has slipped over into phobia.




ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Funny how I seem to be so obviously a Thinker when I see myself as obviously a Feeler. I honestly expected this analysis to come back INFP.
> 
> I've never seriously considered an extraverted type. I've been so introverted, self-focused, and self-contained my entire life it just seemed like introversion was a given. Besides...aren't Te-doms, you know, driven? And bossy? And focused? And lots of other things I'm not?


I thought I was obviously a Thinker for a long time, but here we are. I think that Te doms being bossy is a horrible stereotype (and actually applies more to inferior/low order Te, which is about establishing control). Extraversion in MBTI is not extroversion (I think I wrote this somewhere before) - all it means is that you process things 'objectively'. In the case of Te, it's often subconsciously checking what worked and what doesn't and adjusting to suit that better - based on external criteria. But much like Fe, the user still has their own interpretation of external criteria, so it's not just absorbing facts, or something.
@shinynotshiny as I believe you appear to use Te dominantly (but as an ENTJ rather than ESTJ), could you describe how you perceive Te? It might be more relateable.




fair phantom said:


> I don't see Fi as @_laurie17_ does in the sense that I think about moral issues so much: figuring them out, imagining how they would work in real situations, what I would do if they conflict, teasing out the nuances, figuring out priorities. While it often feels instinctive in the moment of confrontation, that certainty comes from much ruminating.
> 
> I wonder what the different perceptions of Fi indicate.


Maybe it's the difference of it being in dom or aux position? Or maybe it's an enneagram thing? I mean, I almost prefer not to think about moral issues because it tends to put me in a low mood (despair at the world, humanity etc.), so maybe it's avoidance on my part.


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> Maybe it's the difference of it being in dom or aux position? Or maybe it's an enneagram thing? I mean, I almost prefer not to think about moral issues because it tends to put me in a low mood (despair at the world, humanity etc.), so maybe it's avoidance on my part.


i don't think it is a dom versus aux thing. I am not convinced I am ENFP; for a long time I was set on INFP, and either way Ellicat's Fi-use seems very similar to mine. Enneagram is a more likely explanation since @ElliCat and I are both 4w5 core.


----------



## Tad Cooper

fair phantom said:


> i don't think it is a dom versus aux thing. I am not convinced I am ENFP; for a long time I was set on INFP, and either way Ellicat's Fi-use seems very similar to mine. Enneagram is a more likely explanation since @_ElliCat_ and I are both 4w5 core.


What type do you suspect you might be if not ENFP?


----------



## fair phantom

tine said:


> What type do you suspect you might be if not ENFP?


Well I typed as INFP and part of me is still inclined that way. Some people here agree that I am. After watching my video some switched to thinking I am ENFP. Still others think I use Ti-Fe. :confused3:

At least there seems to be agreement that I am some sort of NP. :ball:


----------



## Tad Cooper

fair phantom said:


> Well I typed as INFP and part of me is still inclined that way. Some people here agree that I am. After watching my video some switched to thinking I am ENFP. Still others think I use Ti-Fe. :confused3:
> 
> At least there seems to be agreement that I am some sort of NP. :ball:


Have you done a typing thread at all? It might be interesting!


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Well I typed as INFP and part of me is still inclined that way. Some people here agree that I am. After watching my video some switched to thinking I am ENFP. Still others think I use Ti-Fe. :confused3:
> 
> At least there seems to be agreement that I am some sort of NP. :ball:


Hey, you helped me understand Fi, don't jump ship on me now. :whoa:


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> And @angelcat Thank you so much for that offer, really. I'm trying to finish up some books right now before I go and get new books on Friday, but if/when I get the chance tomorrow I'll try to sneak an episode in and see if I can't get addicted. (I haven't watched any new show this summer, apart from that mini American anime I started yesterday.) But I do just need to watch The Tudors, and I will very much appreciate watching it alongside someone (especially someone who cares about it as much as you do  )


If you do decide you want to watch them "with me," let me know and I'll start re-watching them. (At random? Or a certain amount of episodes a week?) 



> Can't believe you prefer Catherine though. Gah. Mary is my gal. She gets pretty selfish in the second season (do CW protagonists have a tendency to do that? I know the 100's protagonist did the same thing), but... Still love her. She's got a good heart. Can't say Catherine's is as clear. (Then again, I don't have those attachments to her actress that you do.  )


For whatever reason, I don't like Mary much. Maybe it's because she's so ... youthfully arrogant. Or maybe it's the actress? Sometimes I do or don't like an actor or actress and that taints the character for me. I don't really root for people based on whether or not their heart or intentions are good, rather, I like characters that are particularly intelligent and/or at ease with themselves, and Catherine is quite happy being evil, so I appreciate her for it. She can be ruthless and selfish, yes, but there's also a mother inside her thick hide. I just find her ... complex, therefore she fascinates me.



shinynotshiny said:


> @angelcat a lot of the ISTJs in the thread say similar things about their experiences with Si, very different from what you and hoopla talk about.


Maybe it's specifically a Si/Te thing then, because I don't identify with it ... at all. Or maybe they are all the fake SJs, and @hoopla and I are the real ones.


----------



## orbit

G'morning did I miss anything important? Oh wait I can read 15 pages whee. 

I love fire burning and marshmallows turning brown


----------



## Barakiel

Since I love controversy, I'm gonna give this to you. Christian couple vow to divorce if same-sex marriage is legalised :laughing:


----------



## Ninjaws

Barakiel said:


> Since I love controversy, I'm gonna give this to you. Christian couple vow to divorce if same-sex marriage is legalised :laughing:


These people are pathetic. Would they do anything just to not grant other people the privilege that they have, marrying the one you love? The fact that they are willing to create a bad situation for the children like they stated just to protest makes them unworthy to be parents.


----------



## Greyhart

What's there to controverse? Let em.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


>


Under that pile of papers. 

I wish I had a stapler. I wouldn't have to hand staple everything. 

Why do we have staples but not a stapler?

I don't understand my family.


----------



## Greyhart

Why do you even use paper. Everything is digital!


----------



## Barakiel

Ninjaws said:


> These people are pathetic. Would they do anything just to not grant other people the privilege that they have, marrying the one you love?


No, it's because they consider marriage a Christian invention, and letting people which Christianity has _said_ can't marry do that, would dilute the term. Which is stupid, cause even without my belief that marriage is a man made invention, the Bible shouldn't be taken as fact, even to hardcore Christians, it's more of a moral piece, one where you should draw the meaning from, but not follow the words to the letter, as it was written for a different time. These aren't my words, just a Christian and an athiest that I'm related to. :happy:


----------



## Ninjaws

Barakiel said:


> No, it's because they consider marriage a Christian invention, and letting people which Christianity has _said_ can't marry do that, would dilute the term. Which is stupid, cause even without my belief that marriage is a man made invention, the Bible shouldn't be taken as fact, even to hardcore Christians, it's more of a moral piece, one where you should draw the meaning from, but not follow the words to the letter, as it was written for a different time. These aren't my words, just a Christian and an athiest that I'm related to. :happy:


And this, my good friend, is why religion is a blight. Any person who does not have some silly book to point towards can see that everyone should deserve to get the same treatment.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Christian couple vow to divorce if same-sex marriage is legalised (Copied from @Barakiel) oh my gosh. 

That doesn't even make sense. 

Socially it mah make sense - they'll gain the sympathies of those who already side with them, may appear as martyrs - but logically... gah. I don't even. 

Not to mention that it's wrong, their opposal to gay rights. But of course that's the thing, they don't understand that, they see the opposite. 

Ah. Ah well.


----------



## Barakiel

Ninjaws said:


> And this, good friend, is why religion is a blight. Any person who does not have some silly book to point towards can see that everyone should deserve the same treatment.


I kind of think you're putting religion as a whole in a bad light, but sure, I agree with that. Religion can give meaning to a person, which is why I think many people go to it, and it's why I refuse it, cause it didn't for me. But to treat a book that, if written legitimately, was written over 2000 years ago, as fact, is remarkably stupid. Hell, even the Pope has outright said that he doesn't care whether gays and lesbians marry. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> No, it's because they consider marriage a Christian invention, and letting people which Christianity has _said_ can't marry do that, would dilute the term. Which is stupid, cause even without my belief that marriage is a man made invention, the Bible shouldn't be taken as fact, even to hardcore Christians, it's more of a moral piece, one where you should draw the meaning from, but not follow the words to the letter, as it was written for a different time. These aren't my words, just a Christian and an athiest that I'm related to. :happy:


Marriage was certainly around before Christianity, and without the influence of Judaism. Goodness, for a good chunk of the Middle Ages marriage wasn't even a matter of the church, it was secular and political on a small scale (even villagers would marry their children off to better the conditions of their family). Now it's obviously not like that - marriage is a big part of Catholicism - but that doesn't change the fact that our false assertion that marriage is a Christian invention is an invented tradition... and a somewhat bigoted one at that. (Christians inventing one of the most natural human made concepts. Ha.)


----------



## Ninjaws

On a more positive note, I passed my admission exams!
This means I can start working towards becoming a video game programmer in September! 
enguin:erc3::cheerful:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Ninjaws said:


> On a more positive note, I passed my admission exams!
> This means I can start working towards becoming a video game programmer in September!
> enguin:erc3::cheerful:


That's absolutely wonderful! Congratulations


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Marriage was certainly around before Christianity, and without the influence of Judaism. Goodness, for a good chunk of the Middle Ages marriage wasn't even a matter of the church, it was secular and political on a small scale (even villagers would marry their children off to better the conditions of their family). Now it's obviously not like that - marriage is a big part of Catholicism - but that doesn't change the fact that our false assertion that marriage is a Christian invention is an invented tradition... and a somewhat bigoted one at that. (Christians inventing one of the most natural human made concepts. Ha.)


Oh, I actually didn't know that, thanks. I just considered it a human concept because, well, I don't follow Christianity, so it obviously is. Ironically, divorce is against their faith, although I suppose they could bypass that with their _different kind of divorce_ reasoning.  And I'm the type of person who considers marriage largely pointless! Although I do love an excuse to dress formally. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Christian couple vow to divorce if same-sex marriage is legalised (Copied from @Barakiel) oh my gosh.
> 
> That doesn't even make sense.
> 
> Socially it mah make sense - they'll gain the sympathies of those who already side with them, may appear as martyrs - but logically... gah. I don't even.
> 
> Not to mention that it's wrong, their opposal to gay rights. But of course that's the thing, they don't understand that, they see the opposite.
> 
> Ah. Ah well.


"Someone gets to marry the one they love so I'll divorce my love." 

Alternatively legit way to divorce without looking like you are doing it because your marriage has failed.

Wait, isn't divorce is against the Bible? Here if you marry in the Church once and then divorce you can't re-marry in the Church next time.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> "Someone gets to marry the one they love so I'll divorce my love."
> 
> Alternatively legit way to divorce without looking like you are doing it because your marriage has failed.


Now now, I know your Ti can't help it, but there's really no way to presume alternative motives. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

Hey, question, do you guys enjoy using your inferior function?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Oh, I actually didn't know that, thanks. I just considered it a human concept because, well, I don't follow Christianity, so it obviously is. Ironically, divorce is against their faith, although I suppose they could bypass that with their _different kind of divorce_ reasoning.  And I'm the type of person who considers marriage largely pointless! Although I do love an excuse to dress formally. :laughing:


Well, I do understand our dislike of divorce -- and the fact that we allow certain divorces (such as divorces in abusive situations... There's nothing unreasonable or hypocritical about excusing that divorce over others). I differ from other Christians unfortunately in that I think some sins are greater than others, and one would not be condemned for divorcing or having intimate relations outside of marriage... but eh. 

It's a human concept because it's been developed independently in human societies... I think it's natural in that sense, it's something that seems to happen when people get together, independent innovation I believe we called it in my classes). (Not to say there haven't been different forms of it, but I think the joining of two people is pretty consistent with humans.) 

I personally love marriage... because, hey, that's consistent with my character. I've been to far less marriages than I have funerals, but I've still been to quite a few marriages... and they're wonderful. Certainly more enjoyable to attend than funerals.  Part of me has a hard time believing in love just because what I tend to see in the married couples I know seems more like obligation... but I still hope. I try to convince myself with every marriage I see that this one will be love, that they will still see each other in a beautiful light and know what love is always presented as. (And, anyway, the company is always merry and sometimes the ceremonies are just _gorgeous_. I love the varieties of weddings, how each is different but they're usually perfect for the couple and their intention nonetheless.


----------



## Ninjaws

Barakiel said:


> Hey, question, do you guys enjoy using your inferior function?


I like putting my video games in order.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Hey, question, do you guys enjoy using your inferior function?


Yes. But we've already discussed this in regards to me.


----------



## ElliCat

angelcat said:


> Whenever I got bored with my life as a child, I imagined a different one. I would pretend, in doing my chores, that I was Cinderella or some such nonsense. It's still a temptation for me to slip into that, to take on someone else's shoes. So in a sense, I am not creating avatars so I can inject myself into someone else's stories, so much as I am becoming their characters for awhile, to escape my own life. That's why I write, in a sense -- to become someone else, somewhere else, for awhile. The challenge of it. The excitement of it. The learning involved in it, because you have to utterly transform, yet I can't. Not completely. Not yet. There is still bits and pieces of me in all my characters.


My protagonists were always different versions of myself. Usually who I wanted to be, or who I thought I would be if I were thrown into their world and their circumstances.

I used to fantasise when doing boring things too. Had to go ride my bike for half an hour when I wanted to keep on reading? Turn it into a horse, or a pegasus! Tidying my room? Moar liek sorting through a treasure trove that had been abandoned for centuries!

I... sometimes still do it. >_>



ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> That's a harder choice than I would expect. People who ignore facts irritate the hell out of me, especially because getting them to see reason in order to move the discussion forward is so freaking useless, you basically hit a wall. Even worse when they won't even listen to your view because they see the premises as faulty and their only reasons _why_ they're faulty is either 1) some belief won't allow them to even consider your alternative or 2) they're convinced of faulty, possibly outdated facts and believe you're the one in the wrong.


I actually agree with this too. I'm coming at it from more of a values-centric place though. Willful ignorance just... disgusts me. I don't understand it. I don't think it makes one a good person, to cling onto a potentially harmful belief that has little to no basis in reality, for the sake of some religious ideal. I'd be interested in how a higher Te user would explain it. 



SugarPlum said:


> I may sound like a freak, but does anyone's brain bleed at not knowing MORE about everyone? Like, anyone I ever talk to... I want to know their age, name, living region (not exactly where)...social security number and blood type etc! LOL jk. But, it is so HARD for me not having a face to put to a name. I have my own imagination for that, which is fine when dealing with FICTION. But like, you guys are REAL, and I feel like I am talking to people in a masquerade ball. AHH! Like alittlebear, what the heck do you look like. I picture a tanned snow white look. Hoopla? I see a petite and shy brainiack lol. I got to see a face to fair phantom, oswin, and semi saw angelcat. BUT curiosity sure kills THIS cat! lol
> 
> This may also stem from my phobia of clowns. I literally fear them. Painted on smiles and masks that hide real intentions freak the hell outta me.
> 
> Anyway, carry on... :ball:


Clowns scare the shit out of me. Always have. We went to the circus once as kids, and I guess our parents bought us showbags with a few toys inside, and among the toys and trinkets were these clown figurines and I HATED them. 

I wouldn't say I have a burning curiosity to know more. But I'm always a bit curious, yes. I wonder if it has something to do with the sx-instinct wanting more more MORE.



laurie17 said:


> I just assume everyone looks like their avatar (so I keep accidentally referring to @shinynotshiny as a he in my head). Yes, @tine is an anthropomorphic snail and @hoopla is a geometric shape.


YESSSSS me too! Which is why it messes with me when people change their avatars, because it means I have to re-evaluate my whole impression of the person. 

You're clearly The Owl and the Pussycat and there is nothing illogical about that. NOTHING I TELL YOU.

@Greyhart you are delightful in such an ENTP-ish way. Or ENTP-ish in the same way that my ENTP is ENTP-ish. I wish I knew more ENTP's so I could know if it's actually ENTP-ish or just a combination of MBTI and Enneagram or just coincidence or what...



alittlebear said:


> I have no idea how I'm going to break away from these beliefs, honestly. I'm considering voting for the socialist guy. Which... I don't know how I'm going to be able to do that without a guilty heart. How will I tell my dad? When will I stop lying? I don't know. I really don't.
> 
> But I know I want affirmative action, social justice initiative (banning conversion therapy, marriage equality, etc.), free health care, better protections for the poor (including health care, yes), more money to schooling, much less involvement in the Middle East (while my thoughts on how we should handle foreign affairs are sifting, shapeless at this time, I know that what we do to those people is wrong).
> 
> I'm just not sure how to... stop being tied to my background's beliefs with a free heart.


It must be really hard to be a Fe user in these circumstances. :-/ I just avoid engaging in too many political discussions with my parents. I know they know that I disagree with them - I've openly discussed things with my father, and my mother gets really preachy around election time because she's terrified of the fact that us kids will vote for the "wrong" people - but there kind of comes a point where it's useless to argue, you know? Because we're all genuine in our beliefs and just see things differently.

My ENFP sister is probably the most argumentative, which surprised me a bit last time I was visiting them. She's growing into her Fi-Te and is NOT afraid to try to make people think. I expected my INTP brother to take that dubious honour but apparently he doesn't find it fun to argue with people who are too serious and set in their ways.

I like the idea of libertarianism in that I'm pretty individualistic and believe in the value of looking after oneself and one's inner circle. I also don't trust politicians.  But having seen that things are not necessarily more efficient under private ownership (I saw the state-owned telecommunications company be sold off and go downhill in its service and quality), and possibly owing my life to public/subsidised healthcare... I can't see it as the answer.

My results: *Socialist Pro-Government Interventionist Bleeding-Heart Progressive*

Collectivism score: 50%
Authoritarianism score: 17%
Internationalism score: 17%
Tribalism score: -83%
Liberalism score: 50%

Bleeding Heart is certainly right. And I'm not big on patriotism so I guess the tribalism is fine. Not sure about the rest though.



fair phantom said:


> Hmmm I have expensive taste. I don't get to indulge it as much as I would like to because I lack the funds, but I definitely go for quality items that last. And I can spot good/bad quality...or at least I _always_ am drawn to the more expensive items I can't afford. I dream of having a Burberry Trench and a Chanel Purse. :confused2:


Oh I'm very similar. I like good quality and I have expensive taste (like, I'm drawn to an object, see the price, then decide I don't like it THAT much anymore...). Brand names by themselves mean nothing to me, and in fact I find it kind of tacky if the brand name or logo is splashed all over the object. But I like quality objects and I like beautiful objects and if an object can be both of these things I am very very happy. 

That's why I'm trying to get a higher-paying job.  I don't know how long I'll last, due to the whole wanting-to-feel-fulfilled thing, but we'll see how it goes!



tine said:


> I've never been properly preached at by a meat eater (my brother in law jokes how I need to eat meat etc but doesnt care either way). The ones I know are actually really considerate and ask if it's okay if they eat/cook meat around me (to which I tend to reply that its fine and would they like me to help).


Yeah now that I'm surrounding myself with better people I find everyone's really considerate. Makes me feel a bit bad to be honest - I don't want to inconvenience people with a decision I've made for myself. But I guess they're just being respectful, and I'm not necessarily used to that.

I've gotten some preaching, but mostly immature jokes and comments designed to make me miss/crave meat. Obviously on some level they're threatened by someone not wanting to eat it, so it's their problem and not necessarily anything I'm doing, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. I don't know why they can't just keep their own issues to themselves instead of trying to drag me into it.



> I think vegans maybe have a bit more of an extreme view or are more prone to it? I havent met any vegans who arent part of something like PETA etc (although Im friends with them and theyre nice people, just a bit extreme for me in some areas)


I just found out that my vegetarian "companion" in college has since gone vegan, but I haven't spoken to her in years so I don't know if she's unbearable about it. I don't think so; from memory I think she was pretty ISFP-ish. My impression of vegans is that an extreme lifestyle choice must come from pretty extreme views, but I guess like any other ideology you've got some preachers and some who just feel strongly about their own decisions. 

Personally I couldn't do it. But if people are that committed to animal welfare I think it's pretty admirable, as long as they're not unhealthy due to lack of nutrients.



fair phantom said:


> i don't think it is a dom versus aux thing. I am not convinced I am ENFP; for a long time I was set on INFP, and either way Ellicat's Fi-use seems very similar to mine. Enneagram is a more likely explanation since @ElliCat and I are both 4w5 core.


I think mine's tied in with wanting to be a good person. So it's very much an identity thing. I care a lot about how I come across as to other people, and I want my image to match what I feel inside, and I feel like I have good intentions so I want my actions to reflect that?

That and it's just fun to think about.



Curiphant said:


> I vaguely remembe what this is about and I think I took the thing a little too seriously and I didn't actually take offensive (maybe a little or else I wouldn't have replied? Or maybe I was just interested in discussing, but whatever) so it's fine ^^


No I don't think you two took it too seriously at all. At least no more seriously than I did. I guess on some level it is serious because it does affect people's quality of life, but at the same time it's silly to take a hypothetical discussion too seriously...

Anyway if I had've been serious you would've been right to jump on it as a case of faulty logic. 



LuchoIsLurking said:


> I have settled on ESTP. Developing Fe. I can't see myself as an N-Dominant. At all.


YAY! I was going to reply and say I see ESTP in you the most. Glad you agree. 



shinynotshiny said:


> Do I embody Te now oh no


Yes and it's beautiful on (in??) you! <3



angelcat said:


> Umm... I'm an expert hoop dancer (self taught),


YOU HOOP DANCE THAT IS AMAZING YOU PEOPLE ARE AMAZING I WISH I WAS COORDINATED ENOUGH TO DANCE WITH OBJECTS I CAN'T EVEN DANCE USING MY OWN BODY WHAT IS YOUR SECRET


----------



## Greyhart

ElliCat said:


> At this point in time, the prospect of getting married fills me with horror. Not marriage itself, but the idea of having a wedding. I know I could just go do it quickly at a courthouse but that's boring and my boyfriend/partner/whatever and I take the relationship seriously even without the ring? And my family wouldn't be impressed. Well they're not really impressed that we're "living in sin" but I think they would be really hurt if we didn't have a proper wedding that involved them. I don't care about the expectations per se, but I don't like to hurt their feelings. It might be a silly distinction to make but it's an important one to me.
> 
> If getting married would give me some benefits that I thought I needed, I would do it. Otherwise, I already have everything I need.
> 
> I wouldn't extend that dismissiveness to others though. Like I don't like it when people are all "HURRR WHY DO GAYS EVEN WANT TO GET MARRIED ANYWAY". If you don't want to get married that's fine but at least give everyone the option, yeah?


My mom was married 2 times before her current husband my stepdad who raised me. First 2 times she had a huge weddings. This time there were only them and 5 year old me. Mom still considers it to be the best wedding.

Personally I'll probably be wearing a tux just to piss on everyone's expectations  Assuming it will be a man... I won't be able to marry a woman for years to come.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> On an unrelated topic...
> 
> I don't know what to volunteer for this summer. Everything seems like a hassle and a ton of paperwork to get into. I thought about helping in a nursing home because I can read for long periods of time but that requires a lot of planning and talking and coordinating it seems from the website.
> Maybe I'll volunteer at the county historical site with paperwork and scanning things but would they trust me with that?
> 
> I hope lab work counts as volunteering...


The hell is volunteering? Are you required to do it for school?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

> Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why my protagonists were so me-ish... "write what you know", well I know my own thought processes, hahaha! And I guess I wanted to insert myself into the story somehow, because I wanted to live in that world? Sometimes I'd end up being a side character and I was totally fine with that too.
> 
> Typology must be great for broadening the range of characters one can write. I guess the temptation would be to slide into caricatures of the types, though, unless one spent a lot of time developing the characters beyond that.


I discovered typology just as my story planning was taking flight, and it influenced them a lot. Assuming I can pull off the types I've assigned to my characters, I should have a morally "good" example of each type. (The amount of characters in my story is ridiculous already, so this isn't too absurd.) I hope I didn't fall into caricatures... but I don't think I did. The types of the characters help you understand their thought processes, and some vulnerabilities, but they're ultimately their own characters. (My INTP, for example... completely a bad-donkey of a character. Uses Ti/Ne, but isn't afraid to jump in and _do_ when she has to. She's actually one of the more morally grey characters unfortunately, but she's one of the most loving characters (another not-what-you'd-expect-from-INTP), so I still count her as a "good" character.)

The real problem is getting outside of my head. I think I can get an idea of how other people work, their thoughts, my characters' thoughts... but the real test will be how well I actually pull this off.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> The hell is volunteering? Are you required to do it for school?


Is this a joke or


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Is this a joke or


Actually, unless you want to because of some martyr complex, I do question volunteering. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Is this a joke or


Nope. I can't imagine high school student doing stuff at summer if it's nor required for school. Summer was the best part of school. Because no school.

That and pre-18 labor is prohibited here. You can't be used as a work force legally.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Nope. I can't imagine high school student doing stuff at summer if it's nor required for school. Summer was the best part of school. Because no school.


Omg. 

Here, or at least in my part of the universe, it's not required... but we do it because we want the state college scholarship, which requires volunteering. Volunteering over the summer is what high school kids naturally do... because we want that scholarship, and we want to impress colleges. 

(Not that I don't volunteer still after high school. I intend to volunteer a lot next year, but a car would be nice to do that and legs to drive the car would be nice also DX hopefully I can find someone to take me)


----------



## Immolate

I have quite some catching up to do...

@alittlebear The Parable of the Sower is by Octavia Butler and it's about a very empathic woman, I've seen her typed as Ni/Fe, and when I say "empathic" I mean she literally experiences pain and sensations around her. I think the term used in the book is "hyper empathy." Soft science fiction, set in the future, societal collapse, loneliness, loss, love, foundation of a new religion/philosophy. That sort of thing, from what I remember.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I have quite some catching up to do...
> 
> @alittlebear The Parable of the Sower is by Octavia Butler and it's about a very empathic woman, I've seen her typed as Ni/Fe, and when I say "empathic" I mean she literally experiences pain and sensations around her. I think the term used in the book is "hyper empathy." Soft science fiction, set in the future, societal collapse, loneliness, loss, love, foundation of a new religion/philosophy. That sort of thing, from what I remember.


Sounds lovely. Thanks for the further explanation ^^


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Omg.
> 
> Here, or at least in my part of the universe, it's not required... but we do it because we want the state college scholarship, which requires volunteering. Volunteering over the summer is what high school kids naturally do... because we want that scholarship, and we want to impress colleges.
> 
> (Not that I don't volunteer still after high school. I intend to volunteer a lot next year, but a car would be nice to do that and legs to drive the car would be nice also DX hopefully I can find someone to take me)


I should finish my posts before pressing post


> That and pre-18 labor is prohibited here. You can't be used as a work force legally.


So that's not a thing here. I "volunteered" for a bit for a small computer maintenance firm when I was 16 but it was more of "u want to fiddle with computers, I want a free work force, if someone asks ur my niece."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I should finish my posts before pressing post
> 
> So that's not a thing here. I "volunteered" for a bit for a small computer maintenance firm when I was 16 but it was more of "u want to fiddle with computers, I want a free work force, if someone asks ur my niece."


Oh... Well..

For starters, I think we can generally work at age 16. I know people who got jokes with corporate stores at age 13. We're not too strict about all that. 

And... Volunteering isn't really a job. Like in the library, you had the people who were paid and the people who were. The people who were paid ran the events, the check out area, and planned things (I guess), while us who were unpaid were constantly busy cleaning things up, organizing, wiping stuff down, turning in books, making sure the books were straightened. We were given essential tasks, but less important ones in the scheme of the library that anyone could do. And it's more or less the same for how we did it when I volunteered for swimming. I did essentially coach the younger kids, but we didn't get paid for it like the actual two coaches who coordinated practices, events, managed money, and directed the practices. 

In a way we did as much work, but we weren't actually in the leadership positions and doing what our society considers "work".


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I have quite some catching up to do...
> 
> @alittlebear The Parable of the Sower is by Octavia Butler and it's about a very empathic woman, I've seen her typed as Ni/Fe, and when I say "empathic" I mean she literally experiences pain and sensations around her. I think the term used in the book is "hyper empathy." Soft science fiction, set in the future, societal collapse, loneliness, loss, love, foundation of a new religion/philosophy. That sort of thing, from what I remember.


Ah, is this the typing topic? It was the only one I could find. INFJish book I read..

It sounds like a very interesting story. I hope they have it at Barnes and Noble.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> Oh... Well..
> 
> For starters, I think we can generally work at age 16. I know people who got jokes with corporate stores at age 13. We're not too strict about all that.
> 
> And... Volunteering isn't really a job. Like in the library, you had the people who were paid and the people who were. The people who were paid ran the events, the check out area, and planned things (I guess), while us who were unpaid were constantly busy cleaning things up, organizing, wiping stuff down, turning in books, making sure the books were straightened. We were given essential tasks, but less important ones in the scheme of the library that anyone could do. And it's more or less the same for how we did it when I volunteered for swimming. I did essentially coach the younger kids, but we didn't get paid for it like the actual two coaches who coordinated practices, events, managed money, and directed the practices.
> 
> In a way we did as much work, but we weren't actually in the leadership positions and doing what our society considers "work".


That kind of volunteering you brought up is usually part of "work". People would fight to increase their work load to get paid extra. I know there is volunteering at hospitals, to help clean pots and such but it's for adults too and isn't permitted in every hospital.

To work at store at 13  Can't imagine shop owner that would trust a kid to do that.

Sorta unrelated but a bit grocery shop near my house was looking for cashiers. "Women age 18-30."


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> @angelcat, alas I also have no social life, go anywhere most of the time, and see no one, but I still manage to do nothing with my life but be an average high school student. The only time I usually get my schoolwork/work done is the morning which only lasts seven hours so.


Slacker. 

No, seriously, though, seven hours is a looong time to be stuck doing schoolwork. 

Actually, doing school takes a huge chunk out of people's time. That's why I refused to go to college. That and I think most college is worthless. Also, I don't need it. If I lose my job, I'll just start up my own business. A tea shoppe might be fun.



Barakiel said:


> Hey, question, do you guys enjoy using your inferior function?


I do. It can tire me out if I use it for hours on end, though. 



ElliCat said:


> YOU HOOP DANCE THAT IS AMAZING YOU PEOPLE ARE AMAZING I WISH I WAS COORDINATED ENOUGH TO DANCE WITH OBJECTS I CAN'T EVEN DANCE USING MY OWN BODY WHAT IS YOUR SECRET


Um... a small amount of natural talent and practice. LOTS of practice. Moving past the bruises, and the black eyes, and finding a rhythm inside the hoop.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, when I met him, he was typed as an INTJ, no idea why @_shinynotshiny_ thought he was Si at all. That's just me, though. :wink:


I have to wonder if you keep referring me to as "he" because of Spock and his luxurious beard or because I come across as masculine.










Hmmmm. I don't mind either way.


----------



## L'Enfant Terrible

How does this thread have 812 pages


----------



## Immolate

L'Enfant Terrible said:


> How does this thread have 812 pages


It just happened.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Sorry for thread derail:



Greyhart said:


> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_ this stereotype is what prevented me typing my cousin whom I knew for 25 years. He is ENTJ. I typed him as ISTP because I couldn't reconcile his kindness and overall chill demeanor with Te-Se. I could tell Se, I could tell Ni but couldn't match image I had with ETJ temperament. My stepdad is ISTJ he isn't glum emotionless stereotype either. He loves fun, jokes a lot, loves traveling and helping people.


I wonder if Enneatype has anything to do with it? I've been thinking lately that ESTJ 9w8 is probably an odd combination, so that might explain why I'm not directive, take-charge, goal-oriented, or so many other things associated with Te-doms. 

Still having a hard time buying that I do indeed have inferior Feeling...I thought I dispersed that when I finally admitted I wasn't an INTP. Heck, the best thing about typing as a Feeler was this feeling of freedom I had almost as soon as I accepted it. Like I didn't have to hide or repress (so much) anymore, I could like and believe whatever I wanted without worrying about it being to feely. It didn't quite work out that way, but it could have.


----------



## Greyhart

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Sorry for thread derail:


That's not derail that's railing it back 



> I wonder if Enneatype has anything to do with it? I've been thinking lately that ESTJ 9w8 is probably an odd combination, so that might explain why I'm not directive, take-charge, goal-oriented, or so many other things associated with Te-doms.
> 
> Still having a hard time buying that I do indeed have inferior Feeling...I thought I dispersed that when I finally admitted I wasn't an INTP. Heck, the best thing about typing as a Feeler was this feeling of freedom I had almost as soon as I accepted it. Like I didn't have to hide or repress (so much) anymore, I could like and believe whatever I wanted without worrying about it being to feely. It didn't quite work out that way, but it could have.


Probably. My cousin is 8w9 sx/sp likely. I just get to see his warm side because family.

According to socionics inferior Fi is this

* *




People of these types strive to find themselves in environment where they like everything and everyone. If they don't like something or someone - this is a reason to change their environment. Very receptive when he is told how someone else should be treated. When he does not know how to treat someone, feels uncomfortable - needs those who can explain this to him. Looks for a place where he would be allowed to communicate his assessments and attitudes. If this is allowed - the place seems welcoming to him. In this regard, he is very mistrustful and and often tries to rely on some objective data. Very suggestible by the valuations of those who are close to him, and through this he can be taken advantage of. Having found himself in some new place, if there is such a person there, he will try to listen to his/her evaluations and then adopt them as his own. The best place for him is where he has a circle of close and trusted friends. He likes situations where he knows or can accurately assess how everything should be treated and valuated: "this is white and that is black." If he lacks such clarity, he may feel uncomfortable. It is very painful for him to part with his groups of friends or team where he worked - memories will bring him to bouts of nostalgia. It is very hurtful for him to lose a friend, a comrade, a colleague, whom he has known for a long while. Same applies to his personal life. Sometimes he might deliberately provoke a scandal and use it as a way to express his attitude towards someone or something, since another method of delivery would require the approval of the group or collective, but this way he can freely give his assessment as is. And then move on to his real valuations, which now he can safely speak about. If he has feelings for someone, he can turn a blind eye to everything, as he is very suggestible by love - it makes him blind. It's a feeling that warms him contrary to all common sense. In general, under such circumstances, the position of this function results in a very dangerous situation because such a person can be easily 'programmed' to any feelings for anyone (fall prey to sycophancy). Then you can just push him to take action and no hypnosis is even necessary - he will act believing it is out of his best intentions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart could you share where you got that Socionics clip from?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart could you share where you got that Socionics clip from?


Introverted ethics - Wikisocion


----------



## Tad Cooper

ElliCat said:


> Yeah now that I'm surrounding myself with better people I find everyone's really considerate. Makes me feel a bit bad to be honest - I don't want to inconvenience people with a decision I've made for myself. But I guess they're just being respectful, and I'm not necessarily used to that.
> *Yeah I think let them do what they feel they want to and just say thanks for it?
> *
> I've gotten some preaching, but mostly immature jokes and comments designed to make me miss/crave meat. Obviously on some level they're threatened by someone not wanting to eat it, so it's their problem and not necessarily anything I'm doing, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. I don't know why they can't just keep their own issues to themselves instead of trying to drag me into it.
> *Yeah its something people seem to do with most things if you give something up i.e. I gave up coffee and some friends waft the scent of their coffee to me! I think maybe they just dont understand it? I explained my reasons and stated I didnt care what other people did and people seemed happy to accept that.*
> 
> I just found out that my vegetarian "companion" in college has since gone vegan, but I haven't spoken to her in years so I don't know if she's unbearable about it. I don't think so; from memory I think she was pretty ISFP-ish. My impression of vegans is that an extreme lifestyle choice must come from pretty extreme views, but I guess like any other ideology you've got some preachers and some who just feel strongly about their own decisions.
> *I think it's that or maybe even boredom so they try something very different?
> *
> Personally I couldn't do it. But if people are that committed to animal welfare I think it's pretty admirable, as long as they're not unhealthy due to lack of nutrients.
> *Yeah I even stopped being a full veggie because of health issues and so now eat fish.*





fair phantom said:


> I've done a normal questionnaire and a video one. I'd be happy to know what you think!
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ou-said-caterpillar-spades-questionnaire.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/558426-video-questionnaire-_.html


Awesome, I'll have a looksee!


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> My protagonists were always different versions of myself. Usually who I wanted to be, or who I thought I would be if I were thrown into their world and their circumstances.
> 
> I used to fantasise when doing boring things too. Had to go ride my bike for half an hour when I wanted to keep on reading? Turn it into a horse, or a pegasus! Tidying my room? Moar liek sorting through a treasure trove that had been abandoned for centuries!
> 
> 
> YESSSSS me too! Which is why it messes with me when people change their avatars, because it means I have to re-evaluate my whole impression of the person.
> 
> You're clearly The Owl and the Pussycat and there is nothing illogical about that. NOTHING I TELL YOU.


I was really into imaginary play when young - imagining everything to be one big story I was suddenly in. Mostly I focused on dragons (I was one of those dragon-obsessed children). It just makes life more interesting!

Haha, yes it's a bit disconcerting when they do that. I have to keep checking their name until I'm used to it.

No, it's pure logic. I am the owl and the pussycat and the boat and the moon and the sea - also the guitar, but only on a good day.



Curiphant said:


> Sorry for deleting all of the other stuff but I didn't want a super long post whoops. ^^ Anyway, thank you for the input yay.
> 
> Alas, isn't Fi always more obvious than Se? Oh wait a minute, Fi is introverted and Se is extraverted so nevermind.


Hm, it's only obvious if pressed, a bit like if you turn the air conditioner up a bit too high - you didn't notice it just keeping things cool, but then suddenly it's freezing and gusting all over the place.



Greyhart said:


> Legit hate both Ni and Si at this point. WHY R THEY SO COMPLICATED?
> 
> 
> That's actually really useful. Thanks for bring it up.
> 
> @_ScientiaOmnisEst_ this stereotype is what prevented me typing my cousin whom I knew for 25 years. He is ENTJ. I typed him as ISTP because I couldn't reconcile his kindness and overall chill demeanor with Te-Se. I could tell Se, I could tell Ni but couldn't match image I had with ETJ temperament. My stepdad is ISTJ he isn't glum emotionless stereotype either. He loves fun, jokes a lot, loves traveling and helping people.


I've kind of narrowed it down to a simplistic form of Si is the 'should be' function and Ni is the 'will be' function. Si users tend to see that a thing or situation should be a certain way, whereas Ni users tend to see things or situations as they will be. I'm not sure how accurate or universal that is, but that's just me trying to make it a bit easier.

No problem! It's always interesting for me to discuss phobia stuffs.

I think my friend is currently having issues with typing himself because of stereotypes of Ne which he likes and thinks other types can't be quirky or imaginative...



shinynotshiny said:


> Back from sleep, mostly :miserable:
> 
> I'm not sure how I feel about Ni as The One True Goal or Serial Killer First Impressions. Ni isn't the only function that can drive a person, and I may have to agree with hoopla here about Ne. I'll come back to this later today.
> 
> @_angelcat_ That's just the wonder of the ISTJ, great attention to detail and a huge store of past and present facts. Te/Fe is the great divide, so it's no wonder I never seem to relate to hoopla. (Is there any point in tagging her anymore??? I give up.)
> 
> @_laurie17_ I'm going to think about Te a bit and try to come back with a good description


Ni is not the one true goal function. It can have a tendency towards that, but mostly as it's the intuitive leap function which subconsciously uses information to filter data into the most likely singular idea - which could be based around 'if I follow this particular path in life, I will end up here'.

Thank you! I look forward to reading it.



angelcat said:


> The secret lies in having no social life, going nowhere, and seeing no one. That does wonders for productivity levels. Even with procrastination, which I am a queen of. I mean to do something about it. Tomorrow.
> 
> I guess it baffles me that people find this baffling. There's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, so plenty of time to be productive.
> 
> *Two blogs*: one largely inactive and abandoned due to a lack of interest on the part of readers, the other highly active out of self-defense, because I freak out when my queue is empty
> 
> *Have written novels*: yes, because I set myself deadlines and word limits (80k-100k) and ... well, I'm talented, creative, and driven when it comes to writing. It IS my life, thus I have no life. So ... yeah. I'm a completest.
> 
> *Several music videos*: um, way more than that actually. But it takes me what, a few hours to do one? I find the right song and it all just ... clicks.
> 
> *Job*: Herein is my great secret. I work from home, a few hours a week. My parents own a magazine, started it when I was a kid. I got so used to doing it that I am SUPER FAST in getting my work done. My "heaviest" work period is four days a month, right before our deadline, when I put the entire magazine together. The rest of the time, other than occasional sales trips, and dealing with writers / accepting material and editing it, I have... FREE TIME.
> 
> *the magazine*: ah, yes, my art, literature, and entertainment mag, which is bi-monthly and takes me maybe 48 hours tops to produce, every two months. Not exactly a big strain on my time.
> 
> *the website / the movie reviews*: which I hardly do anymore, but that's beside the point. I've been building up an archive of costume drama related movie reviews for over half my lifetime. I think I started that website when I was thirteen or something. Heh.
> 
> *and goodness knows what else*: Umm... I'm an expert hoop dancer (self taught), and probably one of the most knowledgeable amateur Tudor historians in existence, but other than that, I don't do much.
> 
> Or... I do a lot, depending on how you look at it.


As someone very interested in writing and publishing, I was curious about the process of having your books published, from a personal experience angle, and about what it's like to work on magazines. Any insights would be greatly appreciated. The industry is very interesting for me :ghost:


----------



## orbit

Sorry this is late but 

Thanks for the lbirary suggestion. It's just a short form to fill in and then they contact me. ^^ Nice and easy without any stress. I was planning to go to the library a lot anyway so yay

I'm doing volunteer work because I feel guilty tbh

I'm doing labwork that could count as volunteering but that starts in the fall so it's not now and that'll be my twenty hours for the school 

It's not really for universities or at least I hope not. That seems insincere and I don't want to do something just to look good if I can avoid it and I can avoid it. If I don't get into the college I want to because of that, that's fine. =/ I can get into it later like my brother. 

Ugh I dislike my teammates on the tennis team. They just joined for the college application not because they loved tennis and that gives me a sick feeling inside.


----------



## orbit

I understand it if other people feel the need to stand out and play College Roulette but I don't.


----------



## fair phantom

Oh Lord the divorce thing. I hate to break it to the Catholics here but it does not take abuse for divorce to happen. :ssad: My dad was able to obtain an annulment after 20 years of marriage that produced 4 children. Not abusive to my knowledge, but it was _unhealthy_. And no he didn't have to go to Rome or anything. One of my teachers (catholic school) said that Catholics needed to do that in order to get an annulment and i was so angry at the lie. 

This is a big reason why I was cynical about marriage for so long. Obviously, since I am engaged, I got over it. But I still don't consider it any sort of guarantee.



alittlebear said:


> @laurie17 @fair phantom @shinynotshiny I forgot which of you it was that brought up the book _Parable of the Sow_, but I think it was one of you three. I was wondering if I could get some more information on it? I've looked it up, but I'm still not sure what type of book it is (does it count as literature, for example, or is it more adult entertainment [equiviliant to my dad's fun action stories]? I'm looking to purchase it tomorrow if I can, but I'm wondering what I'm in for with it.


I recommended it. _Parable of the Sower _by Octavia Butler. It's technically Science Fiction but I would also look in general fiction since it is prestigious.

@ElliCat @alittlebear

Character creation! Fun! I often give pieces of myself to my characters, like seeds, but by the time I'm done growing them they are often completely different from me. Even the ones I created before function theory had different functions. I think it just came from studying people and how they are. 



L'Enfant Terrible said:


> How does this thread have 812 pages


Take a shot everyone! :cheers2:



ElliCat said:


> I think mine's tied in with wanting to be a good person. So it's very much an identity thing. I care a lot about how I come across as to other people, and I want my image to match what I feel inside, and I feel like I have good intentions so I want my actions to reflect that?


Yes, it is similar to me. Especially the wanting to be a good person thing. I feel like I think about moral issues a lot because I need to figure out _what_ that means and _how_ to be one.

@angelcat well I think you are quite impressive. Especially since so much of what you do is high quality, creative, and on your own initiative.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> I'm a bit curious now to what @SugarPlum thinks I look like, though we're probably way off this topic by now. :ball:


19! (as explained in the other thread). I saw the image of the #19 with you! I dont really see YOU lol. Hmmm... fair skin? lighter hair? I may be way off. I just KNEW you were 19


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Sorry this is late but
> 
> Thanks for the lbirary suggestion. It's just a short form to fill in and then they contact me. ^^ Nice and easy without any stress. I was planning to go to the library a lot anyway so yay
> 
> I'm doing volunteer work because I feel guilty tbh
> 
> I'm doing labwork that could count as volunteering but that starts in the fall so it's not now and that'll be my twenty hours for the school
> 
> It's not really for universities or at least I hope not. That seems insincere and I don't want to do something just to look good if I can avoid it and I can avoid it. If I don't get into the college I want to because of that, that's fine. =/ I can get into it later like my brother.
> 
> Ugh I dislike my teammates on the tennis team. They just joined for the college application not because they loved tennis and that gives me a sick feeling inside.


Didn't you mention wanting to work with refugees? They might have refugee agencies in your city. Bah, I'll look that up and PM you ^^


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Well, I do understand our dislike of divorce -- and the fact that we allow certain divorces (such as divorces in abusive situations... There's nothing unreasonable or hypocritical about excusing that divorce over others). I differ from other Christians unfortunately in that I think some sins are greater than others, and one would not be condemned for divorcing or having intimate relations outside of marriage... but eh.


Do you support divorce and adultery? Or do you just think it's not a big deal?

Just curious, that sentence surprised me but I don't want to debate any of these issues)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Do you support divorce and adultery? Or do you just think it's not a big deal?
> 
> Just curious, that sentence surprised me but I don't want to debate any of these issues)


Adultery, as in cheating... No, I think cheating is wrong, and much worse than divorce... since cheating is not mutual, it's lying, and it hurts several people. Divorce I'm iffy about, since I think in an ideal world it should be allowed... but I don't think it's right for people to suffer within a marriage. 

I know this goes against maybe what's biblical, but I do think some sins are greater than other sins. I don't think getting a divorce is anywhere near... killing someone. I understand the principle, but I don't think it applies. (And I mean, I am still opposite Dante... In that I don't imagine levels of heaven and hell, even knowing and reading the Bible I've prayed since I was a little girl that God may somehow someday find a way for all of us to go to Heaven. But... That's a more touchy topic, one that I know I am wrong in on biblical grounds, but which my heart can't help but say is right nonetheless.)


----------



## Immolate

Why would supporting divorce mean supporting adultery...?

What is this marriage discussion we're having...?

I'm lost.

:sleeping:


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Adultery, as in cheating... No, I think cheating is wrong, and much worse than divorce... since cheating is not mutual, it's lying, and it hurts several people. Divorce I'm iffy about, since I think in an ideal world it should be allowed... but I don't think it's right for people to suffer within a marriage.
> 
> I know this goes against maybe what's biblical, but I do think some sins are greater than other sins. I don't think getting a divorce is anywhere near... killing someone. I understand the principle, but I don't think it applies. (And I mean, I am still opposite Dante... In that I don't imagine levels of heaven and hell, even knowing and reading the Bible I've prayed since I was a little girl that God may somehow someday find a way for all of us to go to Heaven. But... That's a more touchy topic, one that I know I am wrong in on biblical grounds, but which my heart can't help but say is right nonetheless.)


I guess I kind-of think of divorce as equivalent to cheating though. I don't believe you can un-marry someone, so unless it was a matter of abuse or something...I think re-marrying or re-attaching yourself to other people is not really different from cheating on them in the marriage.
However, if two people truly cannot live together, and somehow can't work through their problems, I don't see a big problem with separating, not living together, not seeing each other...still sad but probably not morally culpable. Though it's better if they try to work things out. 
I'm not sure what I think about the different levels of sin...honestly, though, it doesn't matter what _I_ think, God's the only one who gets to judge. I mean, I'm still going to try ) I have my opinions about some things but my opinion doesn't really count for much) since I'm not the one making laws or really changing the world at all)


----------



## Dangerose

I got all sad the other day because I realized it was morally impossible for me to marry Will Arnett, as he's been divorced twice. Completely ruined my daydream of writing my own sitcom, and casting him in one of the leading roles, and then falling in love and getting married. You know, even if I could work it out with the Church, it would still be wrong imo. Well, it turned into a tragic daydream where we fell in love but instead of marrying him I convinced him to reconnect with his ex-wife (Which one? Not sure).

I think Tom Hiddleston's still fair game though


----------



## Dangerose

OR MAYBE HIS EX-WIVES DIE
perhaps I shall go talk to my friend the road-work flagger


----------



## Pressed Flowers

[Sorry; putting under the cut for discussion of religion and hell]
* *






Oswin said:


> I guess I kind-of think of divorce as equivalent to cheating though. I don't believe you can un-marry someone, so unless it was a matter of abuse or something...I think re-marrying or re-attaching yourself to other people is not really different from cheating on them in the marriage.
> However, if two people truly cannot live together, and somehow can't work through their problems, I don't see a big problem with separating, not living together, not seeing each other...still sad but probably not morally culpable. Though it's better if they try to work things out.
> I'm not sure what I think about the different levels of sin...honestly, though, it doesn't matter what _I_ think, God's the only one who gets to judge. I mean, I'm still going to try ) I have my opinions about some things but my opinion doesn't really count for much) since I'm not the one making laws or really changing the world at all)


I feel like, in a spiritual sense, you would be right... Marriage is the union of two souls, and by our understanding of it this cannot be undone. 

But I don't think that's actually what happens, a lot of the time. The two right souls don't always get together. Things happen. People fade. People forget about working to keep the marriage together, and even too often they do remember about working to keep a marriage together, but it's simply not possible, it's gone, and their union is hurting those around them.

As for hell and judgment... I actually thanked my trauma for this (rather bitterly, if I remember correctly) because before I had wondered to God, how can people hate, how can someone deserve to go to hell... And yes, now it's like I understand. If those who traumatically hurt me as they did do not feel sorrow for what they did to me, and continue to do it as they undoubtedly are... Of course I'm not the one who has a right to judge, but I would understand how they could go to Hell. Their souls are lost by their own account. They bury themselves with every harm they bring, and they enjoy bringing harm. If God chooses to absolve them and they come into Heaven without their unkindness, then so be it, my soul will be healed and I will rejoice at their entrance because I will no longer be tainted by human hatred... But I did learn there why perhaps Hell is a place. There are truly evil people in this world. I wish there wasn't, but there are. 

On the softer level though, even then... I've never understood how God can love us all, but then damn us to eternal torture. Not even my abusers deserve that. No one deserves that. I just... I don't know. It's something people have tried to explain to me on a theological level, but that I still just don't get. Love can punish, but I think Love punishes to help. Eternal punishment would just be... not love, that's for certain.


----------



## Immolate

:hopelessness:


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Adultery, as in cheating... No, I think cheating is wrong, and much worse than divorce... since cheating is not mutual, it's lying, and it hurts several people. Divorce I'm iffy about, since I think in an ideal world it should be allowed... but I don't think it's right for people to suffer within a marriage.
> 
> I know this goes against maybe what's biblical, but I do think some sins are greater than other sins. I don't think getting a divorce is anywhere near... killing someone. I understand the principle, but I don't think it applies. (And I mean, I am still opposite Dante... In that I don't imagine levels of heaven and hell, even knowing and reading the Bible I've prayed since I was a little girl that God may somehow someday find a way for all of us to go to Heaven. But... That's a more touchy topic, one that I know I am wrong in on biblical grounds, but which my heart can't help but say is right nonetheless.)



* *




I think I've mentioned this here before but in case I haven't: I've had multiple teachers during my catholic school years (including a nun and a woman educated at a seminary) say that they doubt that there are really souls in hell since a mortal sin requires that a person understand how serious it is and that they be in the right mind. My teachers don't think that people who commit mortal sins could possibly meet those requirements. I'm not sure I fully agree but I like the idea. Or I at least like the idea that everyone can atone for their sins and attain heaven (either through reincarnation or limbo).


----------



## Ninjaws




----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Ninjaws said:


>



Um, hi. Welcome to the World's Longest Type-Me Thread.


----------



## Ninjaws

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Um, hi. Welcome to the World's Longest Type-Me Thread.


Why, thank you. Are there any snacks?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Hmm? Sorry, I don't think that's what the conversation is about, but I may be picking up on a different part of it than you are.


Yeah, you're probably right, since I'm not sure if I'm picking up on any part of it. Got lost somewhere.
Here are some (related?) thoughts, here's what I believe I guess

Love is very good, the true concept of it, but I think a lot of the time it is just a word people use. So I prefer to think of sacrifice, willing sacrifice. Otherwise it just sounds a bit too cotton-candy-and-rainbows for me.

We shouldn't be judgmental but we still need to be able to judge. We should be able to say 'this is wrong, this is a sin'. Not as a condemnation, but as a diagnosis, with the understanding that we are all sinners.

There's a fine line between self-righteousness and righteousness, and it's not always easy to tell the difference

and

There's a big difference between hypocrisy (preaching what you don't believe) and falling short of your beliefs. 

I'm not sure if this addresses anything. Just...hm, I'm a little bothered by overly _nice_ religion. Religion isn't meant to be nice, it's meant to be challenging.You can't have wine and roses without hangovers and thorns. I'm suspicious of anything that's so . . . Precious Moments, I don't know...


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat I relate to what you're saying about being a self-righteous child for the longest time and then needing to understand love to develop more fully. When I was little, I was hyper-religious. In a way, I always have been. And when I was little, as I've mentioned before, all I wanted was to learn... but the others didn't see that, they thought I was just acting like I was above them I guess, so they cut me off. Maybe they were right to, I don't know, but at the time I thought I was just learning.
> 
> I don't know when it changed... I don't. I, honestly skeptical of the being Born Again process, because while I know it helps some people and they experience it, the "born again" verses in the Bible I do not take so literally. (And part of this is, admittedly, that I have seen too many "Born Again" Christians do harm to me and others. Of course Catholics do that too, I do that, we all do that, but... It gives me a hard time thinking that they are now transformed into love when I witness so many of their actions still being driven with a backbone of hatred and self-righteousness. It sickens me, a little.
> 
> But... Now I do understand that love is the most important thing. It's hard to go into it because it's such an important concept to me, and unraveling my thoughts about love would be quite the difficult process... but I do think that love is what will make us Christlike, what will make the world a better place, what allows us to be meager facilitators for God's greatness. And I certainly agree with you that we are going in the wrong direction as far as the modern church goes. Hatred is preached, and sins are condemned... There's one preacher who comes to my school who claims that he is sinless, that he alone will go to heaven... as he spews hatred and makes fun of a girl for her body size. Heh. I don't know how the church could begin to expand this, because so many people believe different things and I think a lot of Christians do not understand love or its importance... I mean I have an idea in my head of how the church would ideally move forward and act as we were meant to as a Christian community, but it's one of those things that I recognize could hardly be accomplished. Maybe someday, though.


If they are not _transformed into love_, they are neither born again nor saved nor truly a Christian. Period. Just as you cannot say you are a vegan while eating a hamburger, you cannot say you are a Christian while spewing hate. 



alittlebear said:


> The trouble is that I think a lot of people dismiss us. She represents a greater distaste for us. Too many people separate us from other Christians. I understand that our teachings are off - how can humans ever truly understand what is meant, what is actually true? - but we have come a long way since the Dark Ages. Too many people that I have encountered do not realize that. Still blame us for the Crusades, tell us we are going to Hell for our beliefs. (Of course this isn't anything that people of other beliefs have to face - other Christian denominations such as Church of the Latter-Day Saints, for example, and not even to mention the non-Christian and secular beliefs - but it's still frustrating to me.)


I am not a Catholic, although I have always had a fondness for the Catholic Church and have done a tremendous amount of research on all its major levels through various time periods, and believe me, the anti-Catholic sentiment bothers me a lot. There is actually some backlash a few places against "A.D." because the producers are Catholic, and that angers me, because it is bigoted and unjust. I have always been very Fe in that regard -- everyone needs to stop fighting, realize that WE, the BELIEVERS, are the official "Church" and that denominations are just trappings, external shields, and theological differences. 

Any one church that claims to know the absolute truth about everything they preach is suspect. No one knows the absolute truth about EVERYTHING in scripture. So the Catholics that claim that are wrong, the Seventh Day Adventists that claim that are wrong, the Baptists that claim that are wrong, etc. No one is right all the time, and churches are full of fallible people who often get it wrong. 



fair phantom said:


> THANK YOU.
> 
> In addition to my parents, my oldest brother wound up getting divorced. He really tried, but his first wife had issues that she could not overcome...she wasn't ready to be a wife. He remarried and has been a devoted husband and father for many years. He was baptized anew. He is not an adulterer.


Divorced does not = adulterer, particularly when one participant is not to blame and does all they can to keep the marriage going. I actually think in some instances it would be a greater sin to stay with someone than to leave them.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Okay, yes that video was a little.. umm.. STRONG in its delivery. I really hesitated with putting it up. The second part was something that really spoke to me, but then again... when I heard it, I wasn't a practicing Catholic. She was in the faith, and she is just sharing her convictions. I know her personally, and I can tell you that she is the furthest from a condemning person. Truly. I think I may remove the video, because this is such a tender subject. However, what she was saying was true. Like @angelcat said, all "Christian" churches (well MOST) have it all SO wrong. So there are PLENTY of things I could start putting out there about all the denominations. That is why I said a few pages ago, it is hard sometimes to "claim" the term Christian, because what OTHERS see as Christianity, is NOT real Christianity. It is the warped version. Anyway, the reason I posted that video on that denomination is because I know there is a lot of Catholics on here, and the fundamental beliefs and teachings are just not Biblical. Not saying you are damned to hell at all! Seriously, I am not God. I think NOTHING less of you. Same if you don't believe in Jesus @Curiphant . I will be removing that video, and I apologize if it was a little strong. Sincerely. Please forgive me. I will however leave those 2 links on good works. due to the scriptural evidence. <3


----------



## Persephone Soul

The thing is though... there is still ONE truth. The Word of God. Anything that deviates from it, is NOT 'the' Truth, but truth of men. <3


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> Anyway, the reason I posted that video on that denomination is because I know there is a lot of Catholics on here, and the fundamental beliefs and teachings are just not Biblical.


In your interpretation. 

(not even really Catholic anymore, but a lot of Catholic criticism nettles me).


----------



## Persephone Soul

In OTHER news LOL, I just typed this up for @Barakiel on his other thread, and thought I would share it here in case it may help anyone here... 

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

*Inferior Te:*
In the grip of inferior Te, IFPs will focus on their own and others' incompetence, are hypersensitivity to signs of dishonest, and take precipitous action, often aimed at correcting an imagined error. The new awareness that occurs, often in conjunction with the process of regaining their Fi equilibrium, tends to engage their auxiliary Se or Ne. Discovery of facts that explain puzzling reactions occurs for ISFPs; significant insights that stimulate a new point of view are helpful to INFPs. As a result of important inferior function experiences, Fi types are able to accept and value their own competitiveness, need for achievement, or desire for power and control--motives that their conscious Fi values tend to reject and deny. They are also better able to accept and acknowledge their own competencies, as well as their insecurities and failings. They are thus able to temper their sometimes excessive idealism with more realistic goals. 

A brief overview of the major features of their inferior function experience..

-Triggers:
~~ Negativity and excessive criticism
~~ Fear of impending loss and separation
~~ Violation of values

-Grip experience:
~~ Judgments of incompetence
~~ Aggressive criticism
~~ Precipitous action

*Inferior Ni:*
In the grip of Ni, Se types experience internal confusion that often results in uncharacteristically strange fantasies. They fin meaning and significance in everyday, benign events and may have insights of cosmic proportions. Auxiliary Thinking or Feeling often aids their return to equilibrium. ESTPs may analyze an overwhelming situation and use logic to extricate from it, or they may seek the advice of a Thinker type as a reality check on the problem. This helps to delimit the disturbing issue and encourages a more balanced view. ESFPs may regain control of a situation when they recognize their own and others' Feelings values. ESPs find contingency plans helpful in reestablishing their groundedness in external reality.
As a result of important inferior function experiences, Se types become more comfortable with and less fearful of possibilities. This enables them to make difficult decisions in ambiguous situations, accept the reality of their decisions, and avoid looking back. They also become more appreciative of the unknown and mysteries and gain respect for Intuitive approaches. Se types report seeking out the company of Intuitive colleagues and acquaintances and finding new pleasure in these relationships.

-Triggers:
~~ Excessive focus on the future
~~ Closing off of options
~~ Excessive structured activity

-Grip experiences:
~~ Internal confusion
~~ Inappropriate attribution of meaning
~~ Grandiose vision



(Was that Really Me? p119-120 & 187-188)


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> In your interpretation.
> 
> (not even really Catholic anymore, but a lot of Catholic criticism nettles me).


According to the Bible  Bible is one truth. Doesn't matter what we 'interpret'. Catholic theology adds and takes away. I don't claim any denomination (because so do they). I just claim the Bible in it's (in context) entirety. Without adding or taking away. Men made religion.


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> According to the Bible  Bible is one truth. Doesn't matter what we 'interpret'. Catholic theology adds and takes away. I don't claim any denomination (because so do they). I just claim the Bible in it's (in context) entirety. Without adding or taking away. Men made religion.


We'll have to disagree. I think interpretation is inevitable and I am always suspect of mortals who claims to have the monopoly on truth, whether as individuals or church denominations. I think all we can do is the best we can to find it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I agree with @fair phantom. There is one truth, and that is God's truth, and the best any of us can do is try to understand that truth while doing out best to do live as He would like us to. 

These are things I am still trying to learn. To listen to God, to put Him first, to live as He would intend, to seek His truth about my own fable of it. But I still this is still what I believe, regardless my own weak obedience to it.


----------



## orbit

It's like statistics 8D

We can use the data and methods to find the truth but we can only estimate the parameter and come so close to it.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I don't claim to have the one truth in my head. But I do know He in His Word, claims to be the truth. And in that word, He says very clearly, not to add or take away from it. Men decided they would tamper and make it more confusing. It is so simple. But, I can't really force anyone to see it that way. Honestly, I was not trying to pick on Catholicism exclusively. It is the same globally really. ANYTHING that touches His word, is well, un-biblical. That is a fact. Whether or not, anyone decides to hold the Bible as the one true source of truth (like it says to), is entirely between them and God. I didn't mean to point a finger at just Catholicism. That was wrong of me, so one more time. I apologize. This topic went from happy tears with what I read from @angelcat (she got me right in the feelers), to me putting my foot in my mouth, to now...uncomfortable-awkwardness lol. 

With that being said.... I SERIOUSLY love every single one of you! I don't condemn you ( I do not even have that authority). I don't look down on not even one person, because I am a sinner too! I am no more perfect than anyone here (or anywhere). 
I just need you all to understand that, because it is so easy for me to talk theology and religion and my faith, until the cows come home (lol) with the people in my life, because for the most part we agree. It is okay to get 'passionate'. It has been a learning experience for me to understand that these subjects really do take Tender-Loving-Care. @angelcat , wow. I can relate more than you know. Your story sounds SO identical actually. I will be beginning the show tonight. 

So, if I came off aggressive or judgmental or anything else, I sincerely apologize. 

And with that, let's continue on with type-talk (or whatever hodgepodge we can muster). Thanks, BTW for this lovely religious-talk-jump-start @Barakiel  


I will agree to disagree, and *back away slowly* :sadcloud::black_eyed:


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> *Inferior Ni:*
> In the grip of Ni, Se types experience internal confusion that often results in uncharacteristically strange fantasies. They fin meaning and significance in everyday, benign events and may have insights of cosmic proportions. Auxiliary Thinking or Feeling often aids their return to equilibrium. ESTPs may analyze an overwhelming situation and use logic to extricate from it, or they may seek the advice of a Thinker type as a reality check on the problem. This helps to delimit the disturbing issue and encourages a more balanced view. ESFPs may regain control of a situation when they recognize their own and others' Feelings values. ESPs find contingency plans helpful in reestablishing their groundedness in external reality.
> As a result of important inferior function experiences, Se types become more comfortable with and less fearful of possibilities. This enables them to make difficult decisions in ambiguous situations, accept the reality of their decisions, and avoid looking back. They also become more appreciative of the unknown and mysteries and gain respect for Intuitive approaches. Se types report seeking out the company of Intuitive colleagues and acquaintances and finding new pleasure in these relationships.
> 
> -Triggers:
> ~~ Excessive focus on the future
> ~~ Closing off of options
> ~~ Excessive structured activity
> 
> -Grip experiences:
> ~~ Internal confusion
> ~~ Inappropriate attribution of meaning
> ~~ Grandiose vision
> 
> 
> 
> ^(Was that Really Me? p119-120)


Actually...wait...maybe this sounds like me?
Could I be Se-dominant?
This 'closing off of options'...I will do that under stress. 
The last time I really was freaking out about something was when I left Germany, I was very stressed out and such for a variety of reasons, and I was chatting to my mother about what I was going to do and it was like:

Me: I want to take this flight home.
Mother: What if you take the train to Berlin and fly from there?
Me: No, I want to take this flight home.
Mother: What if you fly to London and spend a couple of days there?
Me: No I want to take this flight home
...etc

Which was...if I'd been in my right mind, I would have been probably wanted to go to Berlin or London, but whatever part of my brain that would have accepted that was completely shut off, there was one flight in my brain, I was holding onto that. One flight, that was it, anything that wasn't that one flight was not-my-plan and therefore stressful

As for inappropriate attribution of meaning...I recall in another stressful time, I was very upset because I liked this guy and I thought he liked my friend, or, probably it was something else, that was just how I was choosing to interpret what I was upset about (I mean, they were kind-of symbols too), and I would get really worked up about...meaningless symbolism, like my friend was sun and he was rain so if I asked him about the weather and he said he really liked the sun I would assume he meant that he liked my friend? Like, it was _totally_ cut off from reality, completely bizarre and just...yeah

(Sorry, embarrassing stories, but, these were like two of my low points in my life, you can't expect them to reflect really well on me. I am usually not like this)

Inferior Ni or just Ni?


----------



## Immolate

@Oswin Maybe Lucho can share his experience with inferior Ni.

Shiny to @LuchoIsLurking!


----------



## fair phantom

@SugarPlum :hugs:


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> @SugarPlum :hugs:


:smilewoot:enguin:

@Oswin , not exactly sure where, but there is no doubt you were on the wrong perceiving axis before! Se/Ni for sure. :ball:


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny I apologize for snapping earlier. misdirected anger that you didn't deserve.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ I apologize for snapping earlier. misdirected anger that you didn't deserve.


No need to apologize, sensitive topic. I poke around too much :calm:


----------



## charlie.elliot

What's with this thread? Why is it 820 pages?


----------



## fair phantom

charlie.elliot said:


> What's with this thread? Why is it 820 pages?


DRINK!! :cheers2:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

charlie.elliot said:


> What's with this thread? Why is it 820 pages?


We don't even know.


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Ah, I understand. I was confused when you used 'extraversion' rather than 'extroversion' which is typically used for the traditional referral to drawing or losing energy from socialising :watermelon:. It's quite interesting because when I was new to the MBTI both my sister and I thought she was using an extraverted function because of how outgoing and good with people she was.


Ah, so the two spellings actually mean different things? I just thought it was a "pick a spelling, any spelling, no one really knows which is correct anymore" kind of thing.



Barakiel said:


> Jeez, people, and you're angry at people being disinterested about your sexuality, doesn't help when you flaunt it and have parades about it. :dry:


Does it really bother you that much? I can't say I take much notice to be honest. Let people have parades if that's what they want. I'll stay out of it, like I stay out of anything else.

Personally I'd love for it to get to the point where homosexual relationships are considered to be just as normal as hetero relationships. So yeah, I see where they're coming from with the "more exposure". That's probably exactly what's needed. More flamboyance doesn't necessarily detract from its legitimacy imo. And hey, if they can have one party event in which they can be openly gay in a safe space (i.e. not risking getting beaten up by homophobes outside a nightclub) then I don't begrudge them that. After all, every day is Straight Pride Day. :dry:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> I think the difference between science and religion is twofold, it's harder to argue science, and people are more preachy about religion, since it's their *faith*, whatever that bloody means. Though I do like how you consider different religious texts all part of the one thing, very nice. :laughing: For me, personally, I'm just tired of being disappointed, and now I have no passion for anything relating to religion at all, maybe it's my lower order Te just denying everything. :ball:


I've heard a lot of very preachy science people and atheists so... There are just people on both sides who try to convert others to their ways of thinking, and there are people on both sides who leave others alone and just believe what they believe. They're all just people and some people can't bear others thinking differently from them.

Science... isn't really harder to argue. It's pretty easy. If you get some statistics and manipulate how the graph representing them looks, then you've got one result, manipulate it another way and you've got another. It's like language. Sure, it's more time consuming, but it's fairly straight forward. Actually, it would depend how you were approaching both to begin with. If a priest tells you 'These are the words of God' and you believe him, it's no different from believing a scientist saying 'This is a superfood' (ah, food science).




ElliCat said:


> Ah, so the two spellings actually mean different things? I just thought it was a "pick a spelling, any spelling, no one really knows which is correct anymore" kind of thing.


I wasn't aware of it either for a while, but kept seeing one in one place and another in another place, so sort of got a link. (I think I read somewhere about Jung and extraversion or something...)


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> Does it really bother you that much? I can't say I take much notice to be honest. Let people have parades if that's what they want. I'll stay out of it, like I stay out of anything else.
> 
> Personally I'd love for it to get to the point where homosexual relationships are considered to be just as normal as hetero relationships. So yeah, I see where they're coming from with the "more exposure". That's probably exactly what's needed. More flamboyance doesn't necessarily detract from its legitimacy imo. And hey, if they can have one party event in which they can be openly gay in a safe space (i.e. not risking getting beaten up by homophobes outside a nightclub) then I don't begrudge them that. After all, every day is Straight Pride Day. :dry:


Honestly, yes, since I can't relate to it and have to listen to people saying that they're _so_ oppressed and _so_ undervalued as LGBT, I can't understand that.

Well, a simple solution to that would be to consider it the same as heterosexual relationships, and not bring more press to it. If you bring more attention to something, it's more alien and different, the best thing to do would be to make it obvious that abuse won't be tolerated, and remove the possibility of people complaining. I dunno, it just annoys me.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Jeez, people, and you're angry at people being disinterested about your sexuality, doesn't help when you flaunt it and have parades about it. :dry: Although, Conchita Wurst looks interesting, if different. :wink:


To be fair, if we only have one opportunity to flaunt it without shame whatsoever while wearing vibrant clothing, of course we're going to go all-out. Glitter for everyone.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Ah, but... That's not quite how I mean it. I think that everyone finds parts of the one truth, God's truth... because it's the universal truth, not just the Christian truth. For me, the real truth goes beyond the Bible and Christian components. That's a branch of the truth, and one part of the truth that I was referring to here, but I think that an atheist, for example, can sometimes have a clearer understanding of the truth than a Christian. It all depends. It's complicated and hard to understand, but... Please know that when I refer to this truth, I do not say it in exclusion of those who do not identify with Christianity.


Ah, that's what you meant, thank you for clarifying. Though, doesn't that make it pointless to search for the entire truth, if we can only understand a part of it? I don't know, maybe I'll change back to being Christian again, but right now, I can't stand it and, even though I'm currently not passionate about much due to my rejection of this, it's an acceptable outcome.


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> Not to speak for alittlebear, but just for me -- I believe in one truth -- which is God . . . but it's not a stupid really limited one-truth, boooo let's condemn everyone who doesn't follow this exact regimen . . . for me, there's a world of difference between one truth and one fact. I imagine God as like...a burning light in the middle of a prism. If everyone is standing on different sides of the prism, they are going to see different colors (because it's some sort of colored prism, I don't know, horrible metaphor but) they are still seeing the light, necessarily distorted, not looking the same as it does for anyone else's light, but I think if you look at the prism and see the light as best you can from there, you're going to be alright. The danger comes from looking at reflections of the light, and taking it to be the light itself, or turning around and looking at the darkness.
> 
> I don't believe in a God who just arbitrarily presented the one truth to a random bunch of people in 0 AD. I think all true religions are one side of the prism. And maybe people who have no religion at all are looking at another side of the prism -- but honestly, I think it is dangerous. I think that very often in these cases people will start worshipping a false idol -- a reflection of the light. Their intellect, or carnal pleasure, or their egos, or anything else. Not that religion automatically blocks you from that either -- and real dogmatism and fanaticism is probably a reflection of the light too -- but it seems...almost inevitable if you are turning away from religion entirely. (No offense intended...these are just my thoughts). And there's a much, much greater danger in turning entirely to the darkness. But yeah...for me at least, the idea of 'one truth' transcends, but also includes, Christianity.


I didn't take offense but I just want to note that people who don't have religion can still have faith. Look at Rosalind Franklin who was a Jew but almost renounced it to her parents but she still claimed to have faith.

Edit: I think you mentioned it?

I'm not sure if there's a higher power or not. To be honest, if the afterlife is oblivion, I'm okay with that. If there is a god/s, I don't think she'd/they'd/he'd be worth following if they were petty enough to send me into flames for not acknowledging them. I might not follow his or her or its or their way, I'm following my own way and I think I'm doing fine. My purpose is to live for the sake of living and find value in that. I don't need anymore meaning than that anymore.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Ah, that's what you meant, thank you for clarifying. Though, doesn't that make it pointless to search for the entire truth, if we can only understand a part of it? I don't know, maybe I'll change back to being Christian again, but right now, I can't stand it and, even though I'm currently not passionate about much due to my rejection of this, it's an acceptable outcome.


That's the beautiful thing to me. I'll never find the truth. Hard as I might try, I will never get that full grasp on it. This is okay with me though, because no one will ever grasp the whole truth... and if someone openly assumes that they do, you know for sure that they're wrong and need to be smiled at gently. For me, it's worth pursuing regardless because I will never fully understand... but I want to understand as fully as I can, so I can operate in the world as best I can. I can see how for some it would seem fruitless, but to me it just brings to me to keep striving and finding clarity.


----------



## ElliCat

Barakiel said:


> Honestly, yes, since I can't relate to it and have to listen to people saying that they're _so_ oppressed and _so_ undervalued as LGBT, I can't understand that.
> 
> Well, a simple solution to that would be to consider it the same as heterosexual relationships, and not bring more press to it. If you bring more attention to something, it's more alien and different, the best thing to do would be to make it obvious that abuse won't be tolerated, and remove the possibility of people complaining. I dunno, it just annoys me.


Yes but exactly how many humans have you met who will hear "okay, this socially unacceptable thing is now normal and acceptable" and be totally okay with that? Because I haven't met any who are like that.

It's better to raise awareness and increase people's exposure to it and let them become used to it, so that they learn that there is nothing to be afraid of. Ignorance breeds fear. To take away the fear, you need to attack people's ignorance.

Aren't you all for freedom of speech though? How do you propose we remove the possibility of people complaining, while not interfering with their freedom to express their opinions on how terrible teh gayz are?

And having just a few gay friends is enough to make me aware that often they DO cop a lot of shit for being who they are. Even the fact that they can't get married in our country is enough to hint at some kind of systematic oppression. Maybe it's not "hunt them down and castrate/kill them" style of oppression but it's a right that they do not have specifically because of their sexual orientation. 



shinynotshiny said:


> To be fair, if we only have one opportunity to flaunt it without shame whatsoever while wearing vibrant clothing, of course we're going to go all-out. Glitter for everyone.


I wear glitter every day.... because I'm fabulous.

(No but seriously, glitter eyehadow > matte eyeshadow and nobody can tell me any different!)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Living dead I think my results fit me well! This looks like a 9-2 combination and I like it. 



> Jupiter type (7)
> Definition: Jolly ‘Feeding’ Parent Figure, ‘Giver’, Peacemaker
> Devoted to laughter – they have learned that by laughing you smooth out anger, dissolve anxiety, take out the sting
> Warm, slow-moving – slowest of the types because they are ‘Mother Earth’ or the ‘Benevolent Old Man’.
> Detest negativity, war, cruelty, neglect of others – they suffer over the things that are wrong in life
> Family-loving – quietly devoted, not great party-givers, dislike being the centre of attention
> Selfless – attractive to others, but not that interested in sex and 1-to-1 relationships because their attention is on the whole world and universal issues.
> Relationships – tend to get involved only with people who need them.
> Self-sacrificing – find it easier to take the fallout. May take abuse from others to somehow feel better about themselves.
> Big causes – world hunger, war, rights of women and gay people, child protection – they know it can’t be solved but these are the issues that are enormous enough to fully occupy their need to be of service
> Main limitation: Burning out from all that’s wrong in the world. Suffering in ways that don’t help anyone, especially themselves
> Solution: Learn to do things for fun, let go of some of the grief and guilt, and enter the childlike irresponsibility of Lunar type (1).


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I've heard a lot of very preachy science people and atheists so... There are just people on both sides who try to convert others to their ways of thinking, and there are people on both sides who leave others alone and just believe what they believe. They're all just people and some people can't bear others thinking differently from them.
> 
> Science... isn't really harder to argue. It's pretty easy. If you get some statistics and manipulate how the graph representing them looks, then you've got one result, manipulate it another way and you've got another. It's like language. Sure, it's more time consuming, but it's fairly straight forward. Actually, it would depend how you were approaching both to begin with. If a priest tells you 'These are the words of God' and you believe him, it's no different from believing a scientist saying 'This is a superfood' (ah, food science).


Ah, I've see the opposite, so it's probably just a difference of experiences. :wink:

Well, I was just considering that science is more about experiments and that you need to deal with reality's laws and find them, whereas religion, well, it can be called relying on words on a page for your worldview. :laughing: Though, you're kind of right, things can always be turned around and manipulated, nothing is ever solid.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Alright, now, @fair phantom What can I do to help you with Fe? 

To be honest, your Fe and Fi confuses me a bit. I don't sense your Fi shrouding your words as I can with Fi-dominant a (and IMO you certainly don't have the "Te platform" I've been describing for ExFPs). I think you still could be INFP and I'm just misunderstanding your Fi - which is quite possible, pretty sure this is what I did with @Curiphant - but it's true it's not as obvious to me as it is when I see @ElliCat. 

As for the Ne, based on your descriptions and what I've seen of your metaphors, I think you have good use of that ^^


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> That's the beautiful thing to me. I'll never find the truth. Hard as I might try, I will never get that full grasp on it. This is okay with me though, because no one will ever grasp the whole truth... and if someone openly assumes that they do, you know for sure that they're wrong and need to be smiled at gently. For me, it's worth pursuing regardless because I will never fully understand... but I want to understand as fully as I can, so I can operate in the world as best I can. I can see how for some it would seem fruitless, but to me it just brings to me to keep striving and finding clarity.


It's like striving to make society perfect because it's better to know/do more than to know/do less 

Unless you do bad things but whatever you get my point


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> That's the beautiful thing to me. I'll never find the truth. Hard as I might try, I will never get that full grasp on it. This is okay with me though, because no one will ever grasp the whole truth... and if someone openly assumes that they do, you know for sure that they're wrong and need to be smiled at gently. For me, it's worth pursuing regardless because I will never fully understand... but I want to understand as fully as I can, so I can operate in the world as best I can. I can see how for some it would seem fruitless, but to me it just brings to me to keep striving and finding clarity.


Whereas that's beautiful to you, it's irritating to me. I want to know what the truth is, because yes, it is that important to me, and me not being able to find that out infuriates me. I openly admit that I want to find out what I'm meant for, and that's my main problem, I suppose; smile at me if you wish. :wink: Searching for a bit of it even though you can't find it is fruitless, yes, but I can appreciate your devotion. :happy:


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> Yes but exactly how many humans have you met who will hear "okay, this socially unacceptable thing is now normal and acceptable" and be totally okay with that? Because I haven't met any who are like that.
> 
> It's better to raise awareness and increase people's exposure to it and let them become used to it, so that they learn that there is nothing to be afraid of. Ignorance breeds fear. To take away the fear, you need to attack people's ignorance.
> 
> Aren't you all for freedom of speech though? How do you propose we remove the possibility of people complaining, while not interfering with their freedom to express their opinions on how terrible teh gayz are?
> 
> And having just a few gay friends is enough to make me aware that often they DO cop a lot of shit for being who they are. Even the fact that they can't get married in our country is enough to hint at some kind of systematic oppression. Maybe it's not "hunt them down and castrate/kill them" style of oppression but it's a right that they do not have specifically because of their sexual orientation.
> 
> 
> I wear glitter every day.... because I'm fabulous.
> 
> (No but seriously, glitter eyehadow > matte eyeshadow and nobody can tell me any different!)


I was very uncomfortable about being Fi for a while but being exposed to it made me feel comfortable. Being exposed to the truth of oppressed people makes you used to it and more comfortable


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Alright, now, @_fair phantom_ What can I do to help you with Fe?
> 
> *To be honest, your Fe and Fi confuses me a bit. *I don't sense your Fi shrouding your words as I can with Fi-dominant a (and IMO you certainly don't have the "Te platform" I've been describing for ExFPs). I think you still could be INFP and I'm just misunderstanding your Fi - which is quite possible, pretty sure this is what I did with @_Curiphant_ - but it's true it's not as obvious to me as it is when I see @_ElliCat_.
> 
> As for the Ne, based on your descriptions and what I've seen of your metaphors, I think you have good use of that ^^


It doesn't look like Fe to me...?


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> @Living dead I think my results fit me well! This looks like a 9-2 combination and I like it.


I agree,I thought you'd get that one!

My results seem to fit me too but it does seem kinda weird,a bit shallow and not too well developed and WHY is it called enneagram?? XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> It's like striving to make society perfect because it's better to know/do more than to know/do less
> 
> Unless you do bad things but whatever you get my point


Ah, well, you make me smile because that's actually what guilts me. I should just be working to make society a better place. I should stop looking for any truth but religious truth and go into Social Work or Teaching to not waste my time thinking but instead doing, _helping_. Unfortunately, right now, I don't know how to give up my pursuit of knowing. My life would be much simpler if I didn't have it. /sad smile/

But... Yes. The purpose is to do better, not know everything.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> It doesn't look like Fe to me...?


I was thinking INTP, where she would still have an Fe influence but it would be very removed. Perhaps?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> I agree,I thought you'd get that one!
> 
> My results seem to fit me too but it does seem kinda weird,a bit shallow and not too well developed and WHY is it called enneagram?? XD


Yes, that is odd. SoM tried to make sense of it, but... I dunno. It would be nice if they had explained how it comments to Enneagram, and if they had studied it a bit more before calling it life-changing and all that :/


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I was thinking INTP, where she would still have an Fe influence but it would be very removed. Perhaps?


Hm, I've always seen NFP.


----------



## orbit

Religion is so much more complicated than my beliefs

Which is not bad


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Hm, I've always seen NFP.


I think INFP especially is very likely, but we'll see how she relates to the judging descriptions I think @ElliCat mentioned providing her.


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> Yes but exactly how many humans have you met who will hear "okay, this socially unacceptable thing is now normal and acceptable" and be totally okay with that? Because I haven't met any who are like that.
> 
> It's better to raise awareness and increase people's exposure to it and let them become used to it, so that they learn that there is nothing to be afraid of. Ignorance breeds fear. To take away the fear, you need to attack people's ignorance.
> 
> Aren't you all for freedom of speech though? How do you propose we remove the possibility of people complaining, while not interfering with their freedom to express their opinions on how terrible teh gayz are?
> 
> And having just a few gay friends is enough to make me aware that often they DO cop a lot of shit for being who they are. Even the fact that they can't get married in our country is enough to hint at some kind of systematic oppression. Maybe it's not "hunt them down and castrate/kill them" style of oppression but it's a right that they do not have specifically because of their sexual orientation.


As for people I've met, very few, as change is something they can't deal with. But for me personally, I would hope that I would, unless they break a personal barrier of mine by trying to start a relationship with me, I'd be fine with them, I usually am with LGBT people. :ball:

Yes, but how many people who aren't LGBT go to those conventions? Knowing human nature as I do, I can estimate that very few do, it's easier to ignore things that are public and consider yourself right in opposing them. Ignorance breeds fear, yes, but really, they're making themselves easy targets, at least in my eyes.

Oh, I am for freedom of speech, but it's interesting, all I see in the LGBT community is meaningless grandstanding, kind of like how I see feminists. That's probably just my perception gone wacky, though.  As for your other question, do a Martin Luther King and address the thoughts of the community, while also breaking down all of their complaints and exposing them for what they really are. What they're actually doing is making themselves out to be different by exposing themselves as they are.

I agree with you on this, though, not being able to get married is kind of stupid, marriage is not a concept limited to straight people, or even religion. But we've been on this topic before, really.


----------



## orbit

Apparently Protestant countries are more productive and stressed out than Catholic countries

I.e. North Italy vs South Italy


----------



## orbit

Do you think Texas and Alaska will secede from the U.S.? =\


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Do you think Texas and Alaska will secede from the U.S.? =\


Why would they  

Hawaii can leave but Alaska is my heart state.


----------



## ElliCat

Barakiel said:


> As for people I've met, very few, as change is something they can't deal with. But for me personally, I would hope that I would, unless they break a personal barrier of mine by trying to start a relationship with me, I'd be fine with them, I usually am with LGBT people. :ball:


This is an issue I often have with some people, and I think what they have in common is high Ti; in some ways I think they have more faith in people's rationality than I do. They seem to see everyone as being on an even playing field and that if anyone claims otherwise, they're wallowing in being a victim. I wholeheartedly disagree but it seems to be a matter of perception.

Break a personal barrier by trying to start a relationship? Sheezus, I've had straight guys not take no for an answer, and I'm told it's my problem, that I need to be more assertive! Different standards all round!



> Yes, but how many people who aren't LGBT go to those conventions? Knowing human nature as I do, I can estimate that very few do, it's easier to ignore things that are public and consider yourself right in opposing them. Ignorance breeds fear, yes, but really, they're making themselves easy targets, at least in my eyes.


I know quite a few. Admittedly they call themselves allies and are generally the arty performer types, but from what I understand it's not at all an exclusive event. 

I hate this "target" talk. Feels dehumanising to me. 



> Oh, I am for freedom of speech, but it's interesting, all I see in the LGBT community is meaningless grandstanding, kind of like how I see feminists. That's probably just my perception gone wacky, though.  As for your other question, do a Martin Luther King and address the thoughts of the community, while also breaking down all of their complaints and exposing them for what they really are. What they're actually doing is making themselves out to be different by exposing themselves as they are.


You're going to get grandstanding in any ideology, because that's just how some humans are. I prefer to look at the actual ideas behind the grandstanding though. Is there any merit to the arguments of feminism, or LGBTI issues, or whatever else? I don't feel the need to join an organisation and deal with all the political nonsense if I feel their ideas are sound. 

Martin Luther King Jr wasn't always a hero. I'm sure plenty of people found him dangerous to society back in his day. It's only with hindsight that we see him as dignified and inspirational.



> I agree with you on this, though, not being able to get married is kind of stupid, marriage is not a concept limited to straight people, or even religion. But we've been on this topic before, really.


Yeah I don't want to go around in circles but I do think it's an argument in favour of them being oppressed. I also don't think they're wallowing in their victimhood, especially in this case - I see a lot of effort being put into trying to get the laws changed. Acknowledging that one has problems doesn't mean they're not going to do anything about it.


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> This is an issue I often have with some people, and I think what they have in common is high Ti; in some ways I think they have more faith in people's rationality than I do. They seem to see everyone as being on an even playing field and that if anyone claims otherwise, they're wallowing in being a victim. I wholeheartedly disagree but it seems to be a matter of perception.
> 
> Break a personal barrier by trying to start a relationship? Sheezus, I've had straight guys not take no for an answer, and I'm told it's my problem, that I need to be more assertive! Different standards all round!


Ah, well, for me personally, I can talk with them, and get angry at someone abusing them when I'm there, but when I'm not, I grow disinterested in it all, individuals suffering seems to mean more to me than many people suffering at once.

Haha, it's just awkward to me, hell, I can barely even flirt properly! :wink: But, really? Jeez, that's rather stupid of them to even think of saying that. :laughing:



ElliCat said:


> I know quite a few. Admittedly they call themselves allies and are generally the arty performer types, but from what I understand it's not at all an exclusive event.
> 
> I hate this "target" talk. Feels dehumanising to me.


Well, that's interesting, I thought otherwise with my whole human nature claim, since I figured that it would be too odd and out there for most straights to go to. Guess I was wrong. :happy:

Oh, it is dehumanizing, yes, but it's how I see this, and unless I know a friend in LGBT, which I do now, I really won't care about it.
Sure, they should be given the right to marriage, I just don't have an attachment to LGBT as a whole. 



ElliCat said:


> You're going to get grandstanding in any ideology, because that's just how some humans are. I prefer to look at the actual ideas behind the grandstanding though. Is there any merit to the arguments of feminism, or LGBTI issues, or whatever else? I don't feel the need to join an organisation and deal with all the political nonsense if I feel their ideas are sound.
> 
> Martin Luther King Jr wasn't always a hero. I'm sure plenty of people found him dangerous to society back in his day. It's only with hindsight that we see him as dignified and inspirational.


Yeah, it's really bloody annoying to me, at least. The idea of everyone being treated equally is a fantasy, but an agreeable one, so I suppose I'll keep pounding on people who abuse the idea of inequality until everyone gets the picture, that's the closest it'll get to that ideal.

Just like many idealistic figures, such as Greek heroes and Christian figures, apparently Luther King Jr was put up on a pedestal, what a shame. I simply used him as an example which most of you would understand, as the only other one I had was a primarily Australian known one, Kevin Rudd, a Prime Minister who publicly apologized to the indigenous tribes who were abused in the aftermath of the British taking over this country.



ElliCat said:


> Yeah I don't want to go around in circles but I do think it's an argument in favour of them being oppressed. I also don't think they're wallowing in their victimhood, especially in this case - I see a lot of effort being put into trying to get the laws changed. Acknowledging that one has problems doesn't mean they're not going to do anything about it.


Of course, and if they want to sign a paper that says they're allowed to be considered in a relationship, that should be their perogative. I never said they were wallowing, I just can't find them anything more than pointless because I'm not personally attached to their cause, that's just me, though.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> What they're actually doing is making themselves out to be different by exposing themselves as they are.


My eyes landed on this sentence, so excuse me if I'm reading it out of context, but isn't that the point? That we're different? People shouldn't accept us because we're "just like them." That gets us nowhere as a society.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> My eyes landed on this sentence, so excuse me if I'm reading it out of context, but isn't that the point? That we're different? People shouldn't accept us because we're "just like them." That gets us nowhere as a society.


Yes, I imagine that is the point. But still, if they want to avoid persecution, that's hardly the best way to do so, as difference always means being singled out and abused because of it. As a victim of similar persecution, that's how I see it.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Yes, I imagine that is the point. But still, if they want to avoid persecution, that's hardly the best way to do so, as difference always means being singled out and abused because of it. As a victim of such persecution, that's how I see it.


I disagree. Living a lie defeats the purpose, and phrasing the argument in such a way places the blame on the person being abused rather than the abuser.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I disagree. Living a lie defeats the purpose, and phrasing the argument in such a way places the blame on the person being abused rather than the abuser.


Perhaps. But it took the Stolen Generation almost 80 years to be disbanded and publicly denounced (if you don't know what that is, it's basically where British minds took Aboriginal children from their homes to breed the blackness out of them through mating with white people. Kind of like German concentration camps, but instead of killing them, they tried to educate them that their culture and traditions were wrong. :frustrating: ), how long do you think it'll take for LGBT? Short term protection is better than aiming for long-term change.


----------



## Greyhart

I've been thinking. Do ENTPs really have an image of someone who would lead someone in romantic relationship, avoid "labeling" them or setting concrete boundaries? @shinynotshiny said something like "I'll date other people but might come back to you some time later?". I HATE ambiguity in relationships. I want to know are we dating? Exactly how we are dating? What are your dos and don'ts? If my relationships change I want to know exactly what changed and what it entails. Same even for friendship. Are we friends and if we are exactly what kind and what do you expect of me?



SugarPlum said:


> Watch "MBTI: Ni vs Ne" on YouTube
> MBTI: Ni vs Ne: http://youtu.be/QEZPbRHwJWI


*opens video*... AMAZING. What's her accent? I like it.



fair phantom said:


> Hmmm I think I might have inferior Si after all.


Least useful inferior function. What do I do with it?? 



laurie17 said:


> Do they? I think Ti would lend itself to a tendency of choosing words which most accurately express something to yourself - it's not a universal accuracy like Te (or how Te tries to be). Usually it's a lot easier to understand Te explanations etc. because they're trying to use external criteria and push the idea outwards. Ti users are using internal criteria and tend towards refining an idea, which if they try to push outwards may not be clear to others because they are unsure of the criteria being used behind the refinement and presentation.


Yes. IRL when explaining hard concepts I have to make a few "takes". Often the first time information that I tried to deliver passes right over my audience. I have to readjust and try again.



fair phantom said:


> If I didn't live with an INFJ I would have considered it, but our differences make that highly doubtful to me. He can just appear to completely shut down to the rest of the world because he gets so turned inward with his perceptions and thoughts. That doesn't really happen with me. I never thought I would be the relatively extroverted person in a relationship but that is what happened.
> 
> The thing with the video is that she is going by socionics so the definitions differ. Socionics Ni is less ~mystical~ and goal-oriented, more focused on time and cause-and-effect, which is something that I have always been highly aware of. Even when I was young I would advise my friends not to do something because I could see the likely negative effects. They didn't listen to me, but I was usually right.


In socionics ENxPs actually have strong Ni. It's just undervalued and unappealing to us.



> The individual thoroughly understands discussions and arguments focused on following present trends into the future and their possible implications, as well as on exploring one specific imaginative vision of personal meaning, but he much prefers to explore many possibilities, starting from a present point in time and reality, rather than to concentrate on just a few specific visions or trends.





Living dead said:


> You guys,sorry for derailing,but this ridiculous thing here: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/575018-12-type-enneagram-what.html
> I'm curious what type people who "know" they normal enneatype relate to in this.


Probably Saturn-Mercury. Nothing fits too well.



Barakiel said:


> Honestly, yes, since I can't relate to it and have to listen to people saying that *they're so oppressed and so undervalued as LGBT*, I can't understand that.
> 
> Well, a simple solution to that would be to consider it the same as heterosexual relationships, and not bring more press to it. If you bring more attention to something, it's more alien and different, the best thing to do would be to make it obvious that abuse won't be tolerated, and remove the possibility of people complaining. I dunno, it just annoys me.


That is a legitimate claim in many places. Including here. Worse in Russian currently.

When I came out my mother cried for a few days not because she was ashamed or anything but because she was afraid I'd end up being beaten, raped or killed because of it.



Barakiel said:


> Yes, I imagine that is the point. But still, if they *want to avoid persecution*, that's hardly the best way to do so, as difference always means being singled out and abused because of it. As a victim of similar persecution, that's how I see it.


Yeah, that's what we do here. See how it'll take next century for anything to change here. Or in Russia where by hiding you avoid prison or possible death. In West those "exposure" parades over the decades allowed non-hetero people to openly state their preference, live with their partners, adopt and even marry.


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> @Oswin Maybe Lucho can share his experience with inferior Ni.
> 
> Shiny to @LuchoIsLurking!


I was sleeping, sorry.

To be fair, I haven't had many experiences with Inferior Ni, but I can share a few of my own:

Negative Inferior Ni is creepy. I get a lot of unexplained symbols popping up there and then in my mind, I get scary visions of things happening in the future, I get thoughts of things out of this world. I got visited by a demon once. It was like the worst trip ever. 

Positive Inferior Ni is good. I am learning how to use that. For me, it involves subconsciously finding the answer to last night's question when I wake up in the morning, positive gut feelings of something happening and it being right, positively planning for the future and for creating novels/worlds/rpg in my mind.

The negative aspect of things shows when I am ill/super stressed and revert from my natural mode to my Inferior Mode.

The positive aspect shows when I am not stressed, but need to revert from my natural mode to solve issues/take a break.

I don't use my Inferior Function as much as I should, but I would like to learn how to control it/use it better. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Perhaps. But it took the Stolen Generation almost 80 years to be disbanded and publicly denounced (if you don't know what that is, it's basically where British minds took Aboriginal children from their homes to breed the blackness out of them through mating with white people. Kind of like German concentration camps, but instead of killing them, they tried to educate them that their culture and traditions were wrong. :frustrating: ), how long do you think it'll take for LGBT? *Short term protection is better than aiming for long-term change*.


I disagree, again. Of course we have to take measures to protect ourselves in the present and immediate future. I'm only out to people I trust, and I'm especially careful when it comes to professional environments because my state is finicky with its legal protections, but we also have to keep long-term change in mind. Otherwise we'll always find ourselves in a chain of "short-term protection." As for how long it will take, that depends on where you live, among other things.

@Greyhart I also hate ambiguity in relationships. Eugh.


----------



## orbit

There's nothing wrong with wanting attention or asking for help with problems 

Those parades made politicians realise that people want to gain rights and now we can vote for that.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I disagree, again. Of course we have to take measures to protect ourselves in the present and immediate future. I'm only out to people I trust, and I'm especially careful when it comes to professional environments because my state is finicky with its legal protections, but we also have to keep long-term change in mind. Otherwise we'll always find ourselves in a chain of "short-term protection." As for how long it will take, that depends on where you live, among other things.


Well hey, if you want to believe in a future that you'll likely never see, your perogative. :laughing: I'd rather just focus on the here and now, future plans and hopes always disappoint; perhaps that's the difference between higher Se than Ni.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> That is a legitimate claim in many places. Including here. Worse in Russian currently.
> 
> When I came out my mother cried for a few days not because she was ashamed or anything but because she was afraid I'd end up being beaten, raped or killed because of it.


That's actually kind of depressing, I'm sorry for that. 



Greyhart said:


> Yeah, that's what we do here. See how it'll take next century for anything to change here. Or in Russia where by hiding you avoid prison or possible death. In West those "exposure" parades over the decades allowed non-hetero people to openly state their preference, live with their partners, adopt and even marry.


It's not how I believe every country should be, hell no, I'm just inwardly comparing the sufferings of LGBT to what I said with the Stolen Generation, and really, there's no comparison. Add to the fact that I can't relate to their struggles, and I just can't seem to care about their group movement. Sounds cruel, and it is, but I relate more to individuals than groups.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well hey, if you want to believe in a future that you'll likely never see, your perogative. :laughing: I'd rather just focus on the here and now, future plans and hopes always disappoint; perhaps that's the difference between higher Se than Ni.


You're too cynical. I'm already seeing that future in my state. As for everywhere else, change takes time.


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Ah, I've see the opposite, so it's probably just a difference of experiences. :wink:
> 
> Well, I was just considering that science is more about experiments and that you need to deal with reality's laws and find them, whereas religion, well, it can be called relying on words on a page for your worldview. :laughing: Though, you're kind of right, things can always be turned around and manipulated, nothing is ever solid.



Anything that is a human interpretation or construction is made for a purpose and so can be manipulated - not to mention its only measured using human-constructed measurements and so can never be truly accurate and, because of people, can never be truly objective either. Science is a bit like a boardgame: playing by the rules until you find anew way to play (or you want to win by another means) then talking your way through/using modified statistics to convince people the new way is right.



Greyhart said:


> I've been thinking. Do ENTPs really have an image of someone who would lead someone in romantic relationship, avoid "labeling" them or setting concrete boundaries? @_shinynotshiny_ said something like "I'll date other people but might come back to you some time later?". I HATE ambiguity in relationships. I want to know are we dating? Exactly how we are dating? What are your dos and don'ts? If my relationships change I want to know exactly what changed and what it entails. Same even for friendship. Are we friends and if we are exactly what kind and what do you expect of me?
> 
> Yes. IRL when explaining hard concepts I have to make a few "takes". Often the first time information that I tried to deliver passes right over my audience. I have to readjust and try again.
> 
> That is a legitimate claim in many places. Including here. Worse in Russian currently.
> 
> When I came out my mother cried for a few days not because she was ashamed or anything but because she was afraid I'd end up being beaten, raped or killed because of it.
> 
> Yeah, that's what we do here. See how it'll take next century for anything to change here. Or in Russia where by hiding you avoid prison or possible death. In West those "exposure" parades over the decades allowed non-hetero people to openly state their preference, live with their partners, adopt and even marry.


No, I think that the ambiguity in relationships is more a SO instinct thing (SP last?). I can't stand ambiguity in friendships and I doubt I'd like it in a relationship. (This is why me and ExTP SX/SO friend had trouble for a while, because she would just disappear.)

I think I heard somewhere that Ti users often say something, pause, say it again but differently, then try and wort of work through to the most accurate way of expressing something. It's a very interesting trait. I tend to only be concerned so far as the something is important to me/the necessity of getting it across clearly.

I find it so depressing people care so much about interfering in others lives that they would interfere in things like love. My housemate got arrested in America several years ago because she's homosexual and the mother of her girlfriend at the time reported her. It's just really twisted. Even in England, there are areas where it's unsafe to go if you might appear to be anything but heterosexual.

To be honest, from my perspective, I think if you can, it's worth pushing it in people's faces because people tend to forget about social problems as soon as a new one comes along. Through campaigning, gay marriage is now legal in lots of places and there's more of an awareness about it. If you hide it because you might receive prejudicial treatment, it allows people to forget and continue that sort of treatment. Of course, if there's danger to you, there's only so much that can be done. Really, there needs to be a mass protest about governments doing things like arresting you for harmless preferences, but that takes a lot of time, effort and a degree of risk, which many people won't be up for.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> You're too cynical. I'm already seeing that future in my state. As for everywhere else, change takes time.


Haha, yes, I am cynical, because really, how many of these movements actually affected change in the time period where the trauma was most prevalent? Laws are written by the people in power, and unless LGBT gets some people in there to make sure it benefits them, nothing will happen from them getting the public on their side.  That's just my opinion, though, since even though I sympathize with LGBT, it's not going to work, just like many other campaigns.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Haha, yes, I am cynical, because really, how many of these movements actually affected change in the time period where the trauma was most prevalent? Laws are written by the people in power, and unless LGBT gets some people in there to make sure it benefits them, nothing will happen from them getting the public on their side.  That's just my opinion, though, since even though I sympathize with LGBT, it's not going to work, just like many other campaigns.



Forgive me for saying so but a lot of your argument stems from ignorance.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Haha, yes, I am cynical, because really, how many of these movements actually affected change in the time period where the trauma was most prevalent? Laws are written by the people in power, and unless LGBT gets some people in there to make sure it benefits them, nothing will happen from them getting the public on their side.  That's just my opinion, though, since even though I sympathize with LGBT, it's not going to work, just like many other campaigns.


I really don't think that's how politics works? I think basically all politicians are corrupt and self-driven - see the Iron Triangle, even if they come into office with good intentions unfortunately it gets pulled out of them - but that doesn't mean they can't make reforms for the good of the people. America may not totally have their democracy down, but the fact is, people's desires matter. If the majority of people want gay rights, they're going to influence their politicians to vote for gay rights - and vote out those who don't. This is why public support is important. (Part of why, anyway.)


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Forgive me for saying so but a lot of your argument stems from ignorance.


*shrugs* If you say so. Obviously I'm going to be less knowledgeable as you about this, it's simply how I see it.


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Haha, yes, I am cynical, because really, how many of *these movements actually affected change in the time period where the trauma was most prevalent*? Laws are written by the people in power, and unless LGBT gets some people in there to make sure it benefits them, nothing will happen from them getting the public on their side.  That's just my opinion, though, since even though I sympathize with LGBT, it's not going to work, just like many other campaigns.


But these movements didn't affect change when the trauma was most prevalent because the trauma lessened after the change gradually occurred. There would have been no prevalent trauma had they changed it, so that's a sort of catch 22 situation.

If the public go against the government, it causes the government a lot of trouble (minor understatement) so most governments will try their best to avoid displeasing many people. If there was a vocal majority, change would happen a lot faster - it's when governments think that they can get away with it that they do so.

(Which other campaigns are you thinking of, by the way?)


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> But these movements didn't affect change when the trauma was most prevalent because the trauma lessened after the change gradually occurred. There would have been no prevalent trauma had they changed it, so that's a sort of catch 22 situation.
> 
> If the public go against the government, it causes the government a lot of trouble (minor understatement) so most governments will try their best to avoid displeasing many people. If there was a vocal majority, change would happen a lot faster - it's when governments think that they can get away with it that they do so.
> 
> (Which other campaigns are you thinking of, by the way?)


Even with the catch-22, are you really going to see Holocaust survivors thanking the Allied Nations for going in when they did, and not earlier? As for the government, I've seen leaders who have been so stupid and publicly inept that the majority of news stories belittle and abuse them, yet they still get voted in, so you can't really say that public opinion affects the current government leaders, though it's likely different where I live.

The main evidence, if you can call it that, that I have for my reasoning is the Stolen Generation, it took the people in power SIXTY years to stop doing it, and then another 20 to apologize for it, which only happened due to the Prime Minister in question doing it personally. When I think about that in relation to LGBT, for one, it was a lot more depressing and traumatic for the people involved, and two, if you presume that they'll have to wait sixty more years for even consideration that what they're doing now is wrong, then really, this doesn't matter right now.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I really don't think that's how politics works? I think basically all politicians are corrupt and self-driven - see the Iron Triangle, even if they come into office with good intentions unfortunately it gets pulled out of them - but that doesn't mean they can't make reforms for the good of the people. America may not totally have their democracy down, but the fact is, people's desires matter. If the majority of people want gay rights, they're going to influence their politicians to vote for gay rights - and vote out those who don't. This is why public support is important. (Part of why, anyway.)


Well, there have been two examples of leaders in recent memory, and by recent I mean in the past 5 years, that have not needed public opinion to introduce drastically crippling laws, at least where I live, so public opinion doesn't seem to affect them at all. Then again, I suppose America is different, and hopefully better.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Even with the catch-22, are you really going to see Holocaust survivors thanking the Allied Nations for going in when they did, and not earlier? As for the government, I've seen leaders who have been so stupid and publicly inept that the majority of news stories belittle and abuse them, yet they still get voted in, so you can't really say that public opinion affects the current government leaders, though it's likely different where I live.
> 
> The main evidence, if you can call it that, that I have for my reasoning is the Stolen Generation, it took the people in power SIXTY years to stop doing it, and then another 20 to apologize for it, which only happened due to the Prime Minister in question doing it personally. When I think about that in relation to LGBT, for one, it was a lot more depressing and traumatic for the people involved, and two, if you presume that they'll have to wait sixty more years for even consideration that what they're doing now is wrong, then really, this doesn't matter right now.


It depends on how many people want it, and how many people value that. It's a pipe dream for people to all be for LGBT rights and to fully stand against that, but still there will be people who vote solely based on how someone stands on LGBT issues. (I am one of those people.) they may not make a wide difference, but they will have some impact. 

Also, examples of how something did not work in the past -your example of government leaders being constantly voted in despite being inept - does not mean that it cannot happen still. A few instances do not invalidate the possibility of something. 

I'm also a bit confused how you are drawing comparisons with the Lost Generation? How does this have to do with LGBT rights? I mean, yes, the government does terrible things. Look at psychiatric wards, which are beyond inhumane but many run by the government currently. The government does awful things. But I do think public support influences that greatly. I don't know anything about the Lost Generation, but I imagine the entire country was not aware of the horrors happening to those children, that the whole country was not against it. I imagine it was allowed to continue in a great part due to a lack of visibility. This is not an issue that the LGBT issue will have to face on this track, as LGBT issues are gaining a lot of visibility (as are race issues and women's rights issues, both which have already gained significant advances at least in law).


----------



## Immolate

@Barakiel things take time, and what point is there in comparing pain in this argument? Just a few years ago I was looking into visiting family in Puerto Rico and learned about a queer person who had been burned and dismembered and left out in the street. The police said it was their fault for not keeping to themselves. Some have it easy, some don't, the fact remains it's a wrong we need to address.


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Even with the catch-22, are you really going to see Holocaust survivors thanking the Allied Nations for going in when they did, and not earlier? As for the government, I've seen leaders who have been so stupid and publicly inept that the majority of news stories belittle and abuse them, yet they still get voted in, so you can't really say that public opinion affects the current government leaders, though it's likely different where I live.
> 
> The main evidence, if you can call it that, that I have for my reasoning is the Stolen Generation, it took the people in power SIXTY years to stop doing it, and then another 20 to apologize for it, which only happened due to the Prime Minister in question doing it personally. When I think about that in relation to LGBT, for one, it was a lot more depressing and traumatic for the people involved, and two, if you presume that they'll have to wait sixty more years for even consideration that what they're doing now is wrong, then really, this doesn't matter right now.


I can understand your viewpoint (although the comparison to the war doesn't really work because, well, it was a war and it was also a time regarded as unequal and the unequal bit kind of nullifies your point because things have changed since then because of campaigns). It's not about being early or late - how are you meant to come in and stop prejudicial behaviour before it occurs? It's about trying to achieve equality in future. The main reason the UK is slowly being destroyed by the government is short-sightedness - now is all that matters, we'll only be in power for five years so who cares? etc. In fact, it's short-sighted people who are destroying the world. They don't want to give up convenience so they keep on doing what they want and causing more and more damage. Short-sightedness is harmful. Of course, living in the moment can be very good (I'm often told by my ESFP mum to try not to dwell on the future and just enjoy myself, which is also an example of how being too focused on the future can cause harm - I have trouble enjoying things because I'm constantly living at least a week ahead).

Anyway, looking at things and saying 'well, that didn't work so this won't' isn't accurate. It may not have worked ideally at that time because certain conditions weren't met which could be met today, or a few years in the future. Anyway, what's the point in sitting back and accepting what you're given? It's too easy.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> No, I think that the ambiguity in relationships is more a SO instinct thing (SP last?). I can't stand ambiguity in friendships and I doubt I'd like it in a relationship. (This is why me and ExTP SX/SO friend had trouble for a while, because she would just disappear.)


Oooh. Well, SP last seem to be cliched for ExxP types.



> I think I heard somewhere that Ti users often say something, pause, say it again but differently, then try and wort of work through to the most accurate way of expressing something. It's a very interesting trait. I tend to only be concerned so far as the something is important to me/the necessity of getting it across clearly.


Online I squish the desire to writer and write same thing in different way but IRL ther's no stopping me. I'll keep rephrasing until either I deiced that the other person has been sufficiently enlightened or they prove to be more athletic than I am and run away. ... JK, but I do like to talk like that. It's also good for me because as a result I might (and often do) get more clear understanding myself.



> I find it so depressing people care so much about interfering in others lives that they would interfere in things like love. My housemate got arrested in America several years ago because she's homosexual and the mother of her girlfriend at the time reported her. It's just really twisted. Even in England, there are areas where it's unsafe to go if you might appear to be anything but heterosexual.


I genuinely don't understand why people give so much fuck about others bedroom activities. Why would you even go as far as to start imagining what that same-sex couple does in bed?



> To be honest, from my perspective, I think if you can, it's worth pushing it in people's faces because people tend to forget about social problems as soon as a new one comes along. Through campaigning, gay marriage is now legal in lots of places and there's more of an awareness about it. If you hide it because you might receive prejudicial treatment, it allows people to forget and continue that sort of treatment. Of course, if there's danger to you, there's only so much that can be done. Really, there needs to be a mass protest about governments doing things like arresting you for harmless preferences, but that takes *a lot of time, effort and a degree of risk*, which many people won't be up for.


Lots of risk in many countries :sad:


----------



## Barakiel

@alittlebear, @shinynotshiny, and @laurie17, do you mind if I don't respond as of yet? I need to reread over all of this, cause I don't feel I'm in the right state of mind to not piss you all off, I really hope you don't mind. :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

Personally I'm not pissed at you. LGBTQA issues don't worry even my parents, despite the fact that they have... well, me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> @alittlebear, @shinynotshiny, and @laurie17, do you mind if I don't respond as of yet? I need to reread over all of this, cause I don't feel I'm in the right state of mind to not piss you all off, I really hope you don't mind. :wink:


No way. You respond immediately or it's no deal. 

Respond whenever you feel you are ready, Barakiel. Of course.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> @_alittlebear_, @_shinynotshiny_, and @_laurie17_, do you mind if I don't respond as of yet? I need to reread over all of this, cause I don't feel I'm in the right state of mind to not piss you all off, I really hope you don't mind. :wink:


You've already pissed me off :suspicion:

But I excuse you.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Oooh. Well, SP last seem to be cliched for ExxP types.
> 
> 
> Online I squish the desire to writer and write same thing in different way but IRL ther's no stopping me. I'll keep rephrsing until either I deiced that the other person has been sufficiently enlightened or they prove to be more athletic than I am and run away. ... JK, but I do like to like that. It's also good for me because as a result I might (and often do) get more clear understanding myself.
> 
> 
> I genuinely don't understand why people give os much fuck about other's bedroom activities. Why would you even go as far as to start imagining what that same-sex couple does in bed?
> 
> 
> Lots of risk in many countries :sad:


I think there is a huge stereotype of ExxPs as being flighty and hating responsibility or wanting to avoid dedication, but usually that's when someone just doesn't want or isn't ready for a relationship, so...

I quite enjoy it when people care enough about accuracy to spend time correcting themselves. I always end up trying to help by sort of summing up my understanding (then they usually go 'No... that's not quite right', well I get it right sometimes, so it's worth a shot) then they can try again if I'm not getting it.

I think some people just like having a sense of importance and power - I don't like this, so you can't do it. It's like that couple (I forget where they're from) who said they'd divorce if gay marriage was passed. That's a great example of self-importance. No one cares if you divorce because of it, so go right ahead. You're not going to stop change.

Yeah, I wish there was even one perfectly safe country. The area I live in is generally very tolerant (I don't like using tolerant because it implies there's something to be tolerated... maybe replace that with respectful of others choices?), but if I go on a twenty minute bus journey, I can enter a very backward area where people get stabbed etc. for not being 'normal'.


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> @_alittlebear_, @_shinynotshiny_, and @_laurie17_, do you mind if I don't respond as of yet? I need to reread over all of this, cause I don't feel I'm in the right state of mind to not piss you all off, I really hope you don't mind. :wink:


No problem, take your time. It's good to review conversations to work things out, and part of the reason why I like online conversation :ghost: I'm very hard to annoy most of the time, so don't worry. Debating is fun.


----------



## Barakiel

Well, I'll answer one of your questions now, @alittlebear, the reason I keep on referencing the Stolen Generation, is that I remember watching a documentary on it, Rabbit-Proof Fence, for my English class, and I remember feeling so *angry* at the justifications by the white people who committed all these horrible acts, and the fact that three children had to walk 1500 miles just to get back to their mother, starving and walking barefoot. It's part of the reason I'm not patriotic at all, how can you be after witnessing that?



Greyhart said:


> Personally I'm not pissed at you. LGBTQA issues don't worry even my parents, despite the fact that they have... well, me.


Well, I can't explain their reasons for doing so, but for me personally, I think it's the fact that I've seen people go through much, *much* worse, that simply not being able to marry seems... somewhat minor?



alittlebear said:


> No way. You respond immediately or it's no deal.
> 
> Respond whenever you feel you are ready, Barakiel. Of course.


Thanks, I was just feeling drained from this conversation, perhaps it's an introvert thing. 



shinynotshiny said:


> You've already pissed me off :suspicion:
> 
> But I excuse you.


I hope not drastically? :wink:



laurie17 said:


> No problem, take your time. It's good to review conversations to work things out, and part of the reason why I like online conversation :ghost: I'm very hard to annoy most of the time, so don't worry. Debating is fun.


Yeah, I find it necessary for me, as I either find out something I missed, or realize that I was wrong and slap myself upside the head. Debating is fun, although I absolutely suck at it, and just get off on the adrenaline. :laughing:


----------



## ElliCat

Barakiel said:


> Haha, it's just awkward to me, hell, I can barely even flirt properly! :wink: But, really? Jeez, that's rather stupid of them to even think of saying that. :laughing:


Oh, that didn't come from the guys asking me out. That came from the family and friends I complained to about it. I guess it makes them feel less helpless if they can focus on fixing my behaviour, because it's on a smaller scale and something they think they can control, rather than blaming the fact that culture conditions guys to chase girls and be aggressive, because bitches don't know what they want and need to see that you're a strong man. >_<



> Well, that's interesting, I thought otherwise with my whole human nature claim, since I figured that it would be too odd and out there for most straights to go to. Guess I was wrong. :happy:


I'm guessing you live in either a small town or a close-knit, conservative suburb. Am I right? Because I grew up in the Bible Belt of Australia, and that kind of mentality sounds VERY familiar to me (as does the cynical, "nothing will ever change" mentality). But then I went away and studied in a capital city and associated with a lot of left-wing, artistic, borderline-SJW types, so I saw a different part of society that does value diversity and crave progress. Performers tend to have a lot of gay and queer friends, so it's perfectly natural for them to take an interest in and want to show solidarity for their cause. 



> Oh, it is dehumanizing, yes, but it's how I see this, and unless I know a friend in LGBT, which I do now, I really won't care about it.
> Sure, they should be given the right to marriage, I just don't have an attachment to LGBT as a whole.


I don't see it as a matter of being attached. I see it from more of a, "well this is the principle of the matter, this is wrong and causing people unhappiness, and as a white, mostly straight adult woman I need to be seen supporting this" point of view. This is where you'll see Fi fighting - it's all about the principle, dammit! I don't even feel emotionally attached to it. It's just morally wrong.



> Just like many idealistic figures, such as Greek heroes and Christian figures, apparently Luther King Jr was put up on a pedestal, what a shame. I simply used him as an example which most of you would understand, as the only other one I had was a primarily Australian known one, Kevin Rudd, a Prime Minister who publicly apologized to the indigenous tribes who were abused in the aftermath of the British taking over this country.


I admired Rudd for being the first to see the value in apologising to the indigenous people, and for making an effort to better the relationship we have with China. The arrogance and perpetual power struggle within that party really turned me off him though. 

But you see, a lot of people I knew used your arguments against the LGBTI struggle in this situation too. That the world is an unfair place, and what happened happened, and that they need to move past it without waiting for an apology if they want to heal. That our ancestors were ignorant and thought they were doing what was best for the Aboriginal people. That we didn't ask to be born in Australia, and that we weren't directly responsible for the atrocities committed when settling in Australia, so we shouldn't have to apologise for it. That Australian society is what it is, and if the indigenous peoples want to thrive, they need to adapt and stop waiting for us to regress. 

I imagine that you can see how harmful this is. How it's really just an excuse to not care about indigenous issues. How we're complacent because we're relatively well-off, and how it's easier to focus on our own smaller, more-easily-solved problems than it is to acknowledge that our behaviour might be inadvertently causing bigger problems for certain sections of society.

That's why we can't let this slide.



Barakiel said:


> Perhaps. But it took the Stolen Generation almost 80 years to be disbanded and publicly denounced (if you don't know what that is, it's basically where British minds took Aboriginal children from their homes to breed the blackness out of them through mating with white people. Kind of like German concentration camps, but instead of killing them, they tried to educate them that their culture and traditions were wrong. :frustrating: ), how long do you think it'll take for LGBT? Short term protection is better than aiming for long-term change.


Disagree, for the reasons that other posters have stated. Getting caught up in short-term protection gives people a really good excuse to not do anything more. There have been studies done, which prove that one good deed can actually make a person act worse than if they hadn't done the good deed at all... basically they get so hung up on their one good deed that they use it as an excuse to let their behaviour slide in other areas. So you can imagine that if someone walks away from a conversation feeling all warm and fuzzy about having told a gay man how to protect themselves from getting beaten up, they're probably going to consider that job done, instead of going on to rally for gay marriage. 

If no one aimed for long-term change, nothing would EVER change. We need to be doing both, with the aim of phasing out short-term protection as things DO change.



Greyhart said:


> I've been thinking. Do ENTPs really have an image of someone who would lead someone in romantic relationship, avoid "labeling" them or setting concrete boundaries? @shinynotshiny said something like "I'll date other people but might come back to you some time later?". I HATE ambiguity in relationships. I want to know are we dating? Exactly how we are dating? What are your dos and don'ts? If my relationships change I want to know exactly what changed and what it entails. Same even for friendship. Are we friends and if we are exactly what kind and what do you expect of me?


I wonder if it's an sp thing, because I'm a bit the same. Well I don't want step-by-step details, but I want to have an idea of how much effort I need to put in and what kind of behaviour is expected of me and how much of my energy you want to chew up, because I don't have a good nose for this sort of thing.

My ENTP actually played the whole "we're not serious yet" thing for a while at the start, even though it was quite obviously more serious than either of us were ready to admit (spending nearly every minute of free time together, missing each other like crazy when we were apart, disgusting teenage behaviour really). I suppose that was still trying to define some kind of boundaries. He's a bit more anarchic when it comes to who leads/follows... he can be quite dominant and likes to play it up for fun, but he also hates that I'm so indecisive and likes it when I challenge him. Probably has to do with his mother and sister both being very strong-willed individuals. As for the labels, we both kind of switch between "partner" and "boyfriend/girlfriend", with the idea that it's serious but we don't want to get married. He's sx/sp, if that helps at all. 



laurie17 said:


> To be honest, from my perspective, I think if you can, it's worth pushing it in people's faces because people tend to forget about social problems as soon as a new one comes along. Through campaigning, gay marriage is now legal in lots of places and there's more of an awareness about it. If you hide it because you might receive prejudicial treatment, it allows people to forget and continue that sort of treatment. Of course, if there's danger to you, there's only so much that can be done. Really, there needs to be a mass protest about governments doing things like arresting you for harmless preferences, but that takes a lot of time, effort and a degree of risk, which many people won't be up for.


Yeah, I've certainly noticed that if people feel secure themselves, they become less worried about other people who might not be feeling so secure. It becomes easier to blame them for their own problems than to fight on their behalf. 



Barakiel said:


> Even with the catch-22, are you really going to see Holocaust survivors thanking the Allied Nations for going in when they did, and not earlier?


That implies we're only doing it for the gratitude? I'm sure some people do, but I sure as hell don't. I don't want attention or gratitude, I want to do the right thing so I can sleep at night. 



> As for the government, I've seen leaders who have been so stupid and publicly inept that the majority of news stories belittle and abuse them, yet they still get voted in, so you can't really say that public opinion affects the current government leaders, though it's likely different where I live.


Okay, but you need to take into account a couple of things in this case. Firstly, that the majority of our media is HEAVILY biased towards a certain party. For those of us who read more independent media and analysis online, it's not an issue. For those who do rely on print and TV/radio, it means that they're only hearing one side of the story, and when you're inclined to believe in certain things to start off with, it's awfully convenient to be fed this information and never have to take into account the other side(s) of the story.

Secondly, the Australian people as a whole are frightened little children. Yellow Peril, White Australia Policy, Populate or Perish, Stolen Generation, any of the derogatory names for immigrants (some of whom were my ancestors), Muslims after 9/11, boat people from the 70's through till now... what do you think it was all about? It's fear of anyone different to us. It's seeing other ethnicities and other cultures as a threat to national stability, and of course national stability is white culture. So if a politician wants votes, what do they do? They prey on these fears. Pit the majority against the minorities. "They're coming to steal your future. Vote for us so that we can protect you from them." It's disgusting, and I want to cry when they demonise the few people who do speak out against it. 

Honestly, I believe that most people just want to live their own lives in peace. I don't think they're intentionally cruel. But fear makes humans act in terrible ways. And I think that's what is happening in Australia right now.



> The main evidence, if you can call it that, that I have for my reasoning is the Stolen Generation, it took the people in power SIXTY years to stop doing it, and then another 20 to apologize for it, which only happened due to the Prime Minister in question doing it personally. When I think about that in relation to LGBT, for one, it was a lot more depressing and traumatic for the people involved, and two, if you presume that they'll have to wait sixty more years for even consideration that what they're doing now is wrong, then really, this doesn't matter right now.


So we should... not do anything? So that in sixty years, NOTHING has changed? I'd rather do something and let the next generations reap the benefits after I die, than know that I did nothing to help.



alittlebear said:


> I'm also a bit confused how you are drawing comparisons with the Lost Generation? How does this have to do with LGBT rights? I mean, yes, the government does terrible things. Look at psychiatric wards, which are beyond inhumane but many run by the government currently. The government does awful things. But I do think public support influences that greatly. I don't know anything about the Lost Generation, but I imagine the entire country was not aware of the horrors happening to those children, that the whole country was not against it. I imagine it was allowed to continue in a great part due to a lack of visibility. This is not an issue that the LGBT issue will have to face on this track, as LGBT issues are gaining a lot of visibility (as are race issues and women's rights issues, both which have already gained significant advances at least in law).


I have a feeling that Barakiel might be closer to this than I am (I have no indigenous heritage and my parents and grandparents are... less than sympathetic towards them), but I can try to explain a bit. The mentality at the time was that the Aborigines were savages. That a group of cultures which has been more or less continuous for 2000 years is not worthy of preserving when the British were now here and could show them the way forward. It was born of a paternalistic mentality, that these children were of two cultures (it mostly happened to half-Aboriginal, half-white kids if I remember correctly) but that only one culture would help them thrive in the current society. So a lot of people thought they were doing them a favour; this is why it was "allowed" to go on for so long. You still see the remnants of these attitudes today. So many don't understand why indigenous kids don't want to go to school or get a job. They have no idea why the women drop out and become teenage mothers. They don't know why they might be angry at white society, which has done nothing but invalidate their heritage and their culture and take, take, take. I mean I obviously don't agree with them turning to petty crime and not valuing education, but I can at least see where they're coming from and why they might feel like there's no point in playing by the rules.



laurie17 said:


> The main reason the UK is slowly being destroyed by the government is short-sightedness - now is all that matters, we'll only be in power for five years so who cares? etc. In fact, it's short-sighted people who are destroying the world. They don't want to give up convenience so they keep on doing what they want and causing more and more damage. Short-sightedness is harmful.


It's the same in Australia too. Just look after yourself and your own party while you're in power, then just before the election you trot out all the old tricks which have been proven to work, and then you get to be in power for another term. And if you don't, well, you just have to wait for the other major party to fuck up and you'll be back in in no time!



laurie17 said:


> I think some people just like having a sense of importance and power - I don't like this, so you can't do it. It's like that couple (I forget where they're from) who said they'd divorce if gay marriage was passed. That's a great example of self-importance. No one cares if you divorce because of it, so go right ahead. You're not going to stop change.


They're from Australia (I'm SO SO sorry). They're part of the Australian Christian Lobby, so they pretty much dedicate their lives to making sure politicians uphold good archaic Christian beliefs from the Middle Ages.


----------



## fair phantom

I'd like to point out re: MLK that he didn't just talk. Civil disobedience and public demonstrations were a key part of his strategy (see: Million Man March).

The ability to marry is actually quite important. Queer people get denied visitation rights if their partner is sick, it affects healthcare coverage, ones ability to adopt, and other things. Also saying that it is okay not to get married is saying it is okay to treat me like less of a citizen. Like their love is less. And that is crap. Also, there are other issues that the LGBTQA community is dealing with, marriage is merely the most prominent right now. Depending on where you are in the US, queer people can still be very unsafe. Especially if Trans. The amount of violence that trans people are subjected to is horrifying and it needs to stop. And not by forcing them into hiding. 

There has been progress even in my lifetime, so I don't see any reason to give up now.
@Greyhart I prefer to clear up ambiguity in relationships. I can deal with it in the early stages, but after that I want to know what is up.

@laurie17 maybe someday I'll write it, or a sort of essay. In short I guess I'm a panentheistic religious pluralism (so my belief sources include Christianity, but are not limited to it.) And for the record I don't think athiests and agnostics are unable to find purpose, morality, or whatever other bs is sometimes come up with like @shinynotshiny had to deal with. My friends that fall under that category are honestly no less self-absorbed than most religious people I encounter, though I do find positive expressions of faith quite beautiful, I don't think everyone needs it.

I think there were other things I wanted to reply to but I am still waking up.


----------



## Immolate

I've been wondering. If someone gave you an art project and said "recreate your mind," what would your mind look like?


----------



## Greyhart

> Well, I can't explain their reasons for doing so, but for me personally, I think it's the fact that I've seen people go through much, much worse, that simply not being able to marry seems... somewhat minor?


That part is indeed minor in comparison to


shinynotshiny said:


> @Barakiel things take time, and what point is there in comparing pain in this argument? Just a few years ago I was looking into visiting family in Puerto Rico and learned about a queer person who had been burned and dismembered and left out in the street. The police said it was their fault for not keeping to themselves. Some have it easy, some don't, the fact remains it's a wrong we need to address.


However, making marriage legal also affects this in a way that it shows that government acknowledgment and support discourages haters, many of whom are just cowards looking for someone to put down to raise their won self-esteem. Reverse is true too, government proclaims intolerance towards "abnormal" people and hater group begin to feel empowered in their hatred. <- This has actual real-life examples I've encountered personally.

This is true for non-sex-whatever minorities, groups and movements too.

I am a firm believer that change is composed out of tiny pieces. Changes are not out-of-nowhere swoop that makes everything better. Same true the other way around - change for worse is gradual and starts small. As much as I hate Star Wars prequels the line from ep 3 stuck with me since I saw it as a kid:



> The Emperor: [to the Senate] In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years.
> 
> [Senate fills with enormous applause]
> 
> Padmé: [to Bail Organa] *So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.*


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> The ability to marry is actually quite important. Queer people get denied visitation rights if their partner is sick, it affects healthcare coverage, ones ability to adopt, and other things. Also saying that it is okay not to get married is saying it is okay to treat me like less of a citizen. Like their love is less. And that is crap. Also, there are other issues that the LGBTQA community is dealing with, marriage is merely the most prominent right now. Depending on where you are in the US, queer people can still be very unsafe. Especially if Trans. The amount of violence that trans people are subjected to is horrifying and it needs to stop. And not by forcing them into hiding.


A few years ago, a woman was dying in a hospital in my state and the hospital denied her partner visitation rights even though they had set things up legally should the worst happen. They had children as well. The hospital denied visitation rights for something like eight hours, and once the woman died, her partner and children were denied legal benefits and the like. I'm sure the more savvy members here can figure out where I live 

But, yes, marriage is tied to a lot more than some people realize.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been wondering. If someone gave you an art project and said "recreate your mind," what would your mind look like?












If serious, I keep bringing up Hubble deep field images for a reason. I could do some abstract smudges but why bother if Universe already created a fitting image. What? No my ego isn't chafing me, thank you very much.


----------



## Immolate

@Greyhart the images are beautiful 

Mine would involve a suspended mass of cotton and some glass, among other things. I'll get back to the thread, leaving for a bit.


----------



## Tad Cooper

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been wondering. If someone gave you an art project and said "recreate your mind," what would your mind look like?


That's very interesting! I find that it's hard to settle on anything solid to make from my mind. I liked the Dreamcatcher approach to minds (archives and data and a furnace to erase unimportant bits) - it's similar to how mine works, but I think it's too fluid to put into still art (although I enjoy drawing and painting), maybe more of a film or animation that never ends?


@_laurie17_ - Ti is very much like I mentioned above with the archiving/furnace area. I find I continuously move information, file new information etc and can pull it up very fast (unless I'm tired or ill, then my brain goes very quiet and the little guy finding the information cant find it). I also ''burn'' things I dont think I'll need again - after exams I removed sections of information I'm pretty sure I wont need (especially with my change of course, I removed a large chunk of knowledge on publishing in order to fit more information from my science degree). 
It does have a filing system that doesnt work like a normal one (there's an order but not alphabetical etc, maybe more base don importance?) External cues cause files to be pulled out and referred to to check the validity and edits and annotations will be made as required.


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> Oh, that didn't come from the guys asking me out. That came from the family and friends I complained to about it. I guess it makes them feel less helpless if they can focus on fixing my behaviour, because it's on a smaller scale and something they think they can control, rather than blaming the fact that culture conditions guys to chase girls and be aggressive, because bitches don't know what they want and need to ese that you're a strong man. >_<












All the response I need, really. :dry: But just for the sake of completeness, that's irredeemably stupid, almost as bad as the whole news propaganda that women need to be stick thin and self conscious. Like, really?! :angry:



ElliCat said:


> I'm guessing you live in either a small town or a close-knit, conservative suburb. Am I right? Because I grew up in the Bible Belt of Australia, and that kind of mentality sounds VERY familiar to me (as does the cynical, "nothing will ever change" mentality). But then I went away and studied in a capital city and associated with a lot of left-wing, artistic, borderline-SJW types, so I saw a different part of society that does value diversity and crave progress. Performers tend to have a lot of gay and queer friends, so it's perfectly natural for them to take an interest in and want to show solidarity for their cause.


Actually, I lived in Sydney for a bit, Burwood to be specific, and now I'm in the Central Coast, but you're right, I do have no LGBT friends, except this one girl from America, but that's a different story. :laughing: This suburb I'm in now is very rural and outcast, though not as outcast as it could be, one of my friends doesn't even have a train station near her. :wink:



ElliCat said:


> I don't see it as a matter of being attached. I see it from more of a, "well this is the principle of the matter, this is wrong and causing people unhappiness, and as a white, mostly straight adult woman I need to be seen supporting this" point of view. This is where you'll see Fi fighting - it's all about the principle, dammit! I don't even feel emotionally attached to it. It's just morally wrong.


I can see where you're coming from, but as someone who doesn't value marriage as important, until I see the real life effects, this is all theoretical to me.  Though maybe I should try and seek out some of this, I dunno.



ElliCat said:


> I admired Rudd for being the first to see the value in apologising to the indigenous people, and for making an effort to better the relationship we have with China. The arrogance and perpetual power struggle within that party really turned me off him though.
> 
> But you see, a lot of people I knew used your arguments against the LGBTI struggle in this situation too. That the world is an unfair place, and what happened happened, and that they need to move past it without waiting for an apology if they want to heal. That our ancestors were ignorant and thought they were doing what was best for the Aboriginal people. That we didn't ask to be born in Australia, and that we weren't directly responsible for the atrocities committed when settling in Australia, so we shouldn't have to apologise for it. That Australian society is what it is, and if the indigenous peoples want to thrive, they need to adapt and stop waiting for us to regress.
> 
> I imagine that you can see how harmful this is. How it's really just an excuse to not care about indigenous issues. How we're complacent because we're relatively well-off, and how it's easier to focus on our own smaller, more-easily-solved problems than it is to acknowledge that our behaviour might be inadvertently causing bigger problems for certain sections of society.
> 
> That's why we can't let this slide.


Kevin Rudd is awesome, even though my first introduction to him was on Rove, and he hasn't lived that impression down yet. :laughing:

I can understand where those arguments were coming from, assuming they weren't just excuses, but I really can't agree with them. My stance on LGBT is as I said above, if I have the opportunity to help them besides voting, I'll do it, but I'd do the same with any random stranger, the sexual orientation doesn't matter, and, personally, it reminds me of the feminist buzz, where some of them put themselves above males, even though that's not the point of feminism.



ElliCat said:


> Disagree, for the reasons that other posters have stated. Getting caught up in short-term protection gives people a really good excuse to not do anything more. There have been studies done, which prove that one good deed can actually make a person act worse than if they hadn't done the good deed at all... basically they get so hung up on their one good deed that they use it as an excuse to let their behaviour slide in other areas. So you can imagine that if someone walks away from a conversation feeling all warm and fuzzy about having told a gay man how to protect themselves from getting beaten up, they're probably going to consider that job done, instead of going on to rally for gay marriage.
> 
> If no one aimed for long-term change, nothing would EVER change. We need to be doing both, with the aim of phasing our short protection as things DO change.


Fair enough, I was probably wrong with that statement, as @shinynotshiny has pointed out, but I'd rather just focus on something tangible, aside from the _hope_ that thing'll get better.



ElliCat said:


> That implies we're only doing it for the gratitude? I'm sure some people do, but I sure as hell don't. I don't want attention or gratitude, I want to do the right thing so I can sleep at night.


Oh no, it's the perception of the whole thing, and really, _right thing_ is subjective, but I agree with this too.



ElliCat said:


> Okay, but you need to take into account a couple of things in this case. Firstly, that the majority of our media is HEAVILY biased towards a certain party. For those of us who read more independent media and analysis online, it's not an issue. For those who do rely on print and TV/radio, it means that they're only hearing one side of the story, and when you're inclined to believe in certain things to start off with, it's awfully convenient to be fed this information and never have to take into account the other side(s) of the story.
> 
> Secondly, the Australian people as a whole are frightened little children. Yellow Peril, White Australia Policy, Populate or Perish, Stolen Generation, any of the derogatory names for immigrants (some of whom were my ancestors), Muslims after 9/11, boat people from the 70's through till now... what do you think it was all about? It's fear of anyone different to us. It's seeing other ethnicities and other cultures as a threat to national stability, and of course national stability is white culture. So if a politician wants votes, what do they do? They prey on these fears. Pit the majority against the minorities. "They're coming to steal your future. Vote for us so that we can protect you from them." It's disgusting, and I want to cry when they demonise the few people who do speak out against it.
> 
> Honestly, I believe that most people just want to live their own lives in peace. I don't think they're intentionally cruel. But fear makes humans act in terrible ways. And I think that's what is happening in Australia right now.


Yeah, I agree, especially in the part regarding the boat policy, it annoys me that even though we're a multicultural country, we still deny people refuge here, just because they're not certified in our laws. Really, the hypocrisy. :frustrating:

Though, honestly, yes we are, but it is fun to watch the parody news shows, like Mad as Hell, and watch them take the piss out of the stupid politicians. Still a form of black comedy, though. :laughing: Really, I hate Australia, though it is the place where I currently live, and I don't like any other country more.



ElliCat said:


> So we should... not do anything? So that in sixty years, NOTHING has changed? I'd rather do something and let the next generations reap the benefits after I die, than know that I did nothing to help.


I'd rather have the people who worked for it, enjoy the new society they founded rather than people who will take it for granted.



ElliCat said:


> I have a feeling that Barakiel might be closer to this than I am (I have no indigenous heritage and my parents and grandparents are... less than sympathetic towards them), but I can try to explain a bit. The mentality at the time was that the Aborigines were savages. That a group of cultures which has been more or less continuous for 2000 years is not worthy of preserving when the British were now here and could show them the way forward. It was born of a paternalistic mentality, that these children were of two cultures (it mostly happened to half-Aboriginal, half-white kids if I remember correctly) but that only one culture would help them thrive in the current society. So a lot of people thought they were doing them a favour; this is why it was "allowed" to go on for so long. You still see the remnants of these attitudes today. So many don't understand why indigenous kids don't want to go to school or get a job. They have no idea why the women drop out and become teenage mothers. They don't know why they might be angry at white society, which has done nothing but invalidate their heritage and their culture and take, take, take. I mean I obviously don't agree with them turning to petty crime and not valuing education, but I can at least see where they're coming from and why they might feel like there's no point in playing by the rules.


Oh no, I'm not indigenous at all, in fact, the few that I have met weren't really close enough to me to be even considered friends, actually, reflecting on my non-Caucasian friends, there's a lot of Asians in there. But that's not important. :laughing:

So, why am I so concerned with this, you may ask? Well, it's mainly the fact that it was cruel, disgusting, and inhumane. I can't even agree with the morals behind it, they are *NOT* a disease you feel you have to _breed_ out, you *DON'T* do that. It's worse than the Holocaust, because they just killed the Jewish, whereas here, they tried to educate them that their way was wrong, and tried to breed them out, like, really, *THEY'RE NOT A DISEASE.* Never mind the fact that *THEY ALSO INVADED THE COUNTRY THEY WERE OCCUPYING.*

Sorry, it just pisses me off to no end that a country I'm associated with could be that disgustingly arrogant. :angry:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been wondering. If someone gave you an art project and said "recreate your mind," what would your mind look like?


Hopefully a lot more organized and moral than it is now. :dry: Also some actual energy would help.


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> I don't see it as a matter of being attached. I see it from more of a, "well this is the principle of the matter, this is wrong and causing people unhappiness, and as a white, mostly straight adult woman I need to be seen supporting this" point of view. This is where you'll see Fi fighting - it's all about the principle, dammit! I don't even feel emotionally attached to it. It's just morally wrong.
> 
> Yeah, I've certainly noticed that if people feel secure themselves, they become less worried about other people who might not be feeling so secure. It becomes easier to blame them for their own problems than to fight on their behalf.
> 
> It's the same in Australia too. Just look after yourself and your own party while you're in power, then just before the election you trot out all the old tricks which have been proven to work, and then you get to be in power for another term. And if you don't, well, you just have to wait for the other major party to fuck up and you'll be back in in no time!
> 
> 
> They're from Australia (I'm SO SO sorry). They're part of the Australian Christian Lobby, so they pretty much dedicate their lives to making sure politicians uphold good archaic Christian beliefs from the Middle Ages.


I agree that people shouldn't do things purely because they know someone who is affected. It's the principle behind it, that some people dehumanise others and feel justified in hurting people because they disagree with them. That's just wrong. And it's no one's business to begin with.

I think it's a lot of insecure people being stuck in unhealthy environments that's a major issue.

Ah, politics. I just hope that one day people will stop voting for the same two parties over and over...

Haha, oh dear... Well, it's one of the most boring news stories I've heard in a long time, if that's anything?



fair phantom said:


> I'd like to point out re: MLK that he didn't just talk. Civil disobedience and public demonstrations were a key part of his strategy (see: Million Man March).
> 
> The ability to marry is actually quite important. Queer people get denied visitation rights if their partner is sick, it affects healthcare coverage, ones ability to adopt, and other things. Also saying that it is okay not to get married is saying it is okay to treat me like less of a citizen. Like their love is less. And that is crap. Also, there are other issues that the LGBTQA community is dealing with, marriage is merely the most prominent right now. Depending on where you are in the US, queer people can still be very unsafe. Especially if Trans. The amount of violence that trans people are subjected to is horrifying and it needs to stop. And not by forcing them into hiding.
> 
> There has been progress even in my lifetime, so I don't see any reason to give up now.
> @_Greyhart_ I prefer to clear up ambiguity in relationships. I can deal with it in the early stages, but after that I want to know what is up.
> 
> @_laurie17_ maybe someday I'll write it, or a sort of essay. In short I guess I'm a panentheistic religious pluralism (so my belief sources include Christianity, but are not limited to it.) And for the record I don't think athiests and agnostics are unable to find purpose, morality, or whatever other bs is sometimes come up with like @_shinynotshiny_ had to deal with. My friends that fall under that category are honestly no less self-absorbed than most religious people I encounter, though I do find positive expressions of faith quite beautiful, I don't think everyone needs it.
> 
> I think there were other things I wanted to reply to but I am still waking up.


Yes, unfortunately it's almost impossible to have a major impact with pure peaceful protesting, but the protesting does have an effect and it might be even larger with the internet being what it is today. That's what I mean about the conditions being right for change.

I would be interested to read it, if you have the time :ghost: It sounds possibly similar to the multi-religious aspects of Japanese culture (Buddhism and Shinto are the sort of base religions and then it's possible to believe in a number of others, including Christianity).




shinynotshiny said:


> I've been wondering. If someone gave you an art project and said "recreate your mind," what would your mind look like?


Hm... It's a cavernous place full of images that dart around corners or crawl up into the cracks. Sometimes they ooze down. You walk through this cavern until you reach breaks in the dark walls. Through those, you're able to see a world of brilliant colour and light, with rolling hills and forests, the air coloured by rainbows and clouds turned orange-pink by something between a sunset and sunrise. It's crowded with indistinct figures that half-exist until you concentrate on them, then they spring forwards and grip hold of you (and sometimes take you on journeys, if you're lucky). Stars hang low in the sky, some from strings, others as pure white light. There is no moon or sun and time doesn't exist. Everything shifts and swirls as you move through it, sometimes overlapping with other places or concepts or feelings.

That's about as close as I can get...




tine said:


> @_laurie17_ - Ti is very much like I mentioned above with the archiving/furnace area. I find I continuously move information, file new information etc and can pull it up very fast (unless I'm tired or ill, then my brain goes very quiet and the little guy finding the information cant find it). I also ''burn'' things I dont think I'll need again - after exams I removed sections of information I'm pretty sure I wont need (especially with my change of course, I removed a large chunk of knowledge on publishing in order to fit more information from my science degree).
> It does have a filing system that doesnt work like a normal one (there's an order but not alphabetical etc, maybe more base don importance?) External cues cause files to be pulled out and referred to to check the validity and edits and annotations will be made as required.


Haha, thanks! That's a good description :watermelon:


----------



## ElliCat

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been wondering. If someone gave you an art project and said "recreate your mind," what would your mind look like?


What an overwhelming question! :O 

I guess it looks something like a cross between a library and an art gallery. Lots of colours and textures, bits and pieces of information, snippets of "videos" of memories and potential future situations playing, bits of music floating around, half-formed ideas shooting across the room. 



Barakiel said:


> All the response I need, really. :dry: But just for the sake of completeness, that's irredeemably stupid, almost as bad as the whole news propaganda that women need to be stick thin and self conscious. Like, really?! :angry:


Oh it's incredible, what kind of crap people buy into. And I guess a lot of it is absorbed half-concsiously, so people are sort of in denial about it and get all angry when you try to point out their unconscious biases. XD I put a lot of effort into uncovering all the shit I've internalised so it all becomes painfully obvious to me, but it's a bit disappointing that others don't show the same interest in conquering their own prejudices.



> Actually, I lived in Sydney for a bit, Burwood to be specific, and now I'm in the Central Coast, but you're right, I do have no LGBT friends, except this one girl from America, but that's a different story. :laughing: This suburb I'm in now is very rural and outcast, though not as outcast as it could be, one of my friends doesn't even have a train station near her. :wink:


I'm assuming not all parts of Sydney are liberal paradises though.  I had trains going through my home town but no passenger trains since the 60's or 70's I guess. Only coal. Glorious, good-for-humanity, coal. None of those ugly renewable energy producers; we value our health out in the sticks!



> I can see where you're coming from, but as someone who doesn't value marriage as important, until I see the real life effects, this is all theoretical to me.  Though maybe I should try and seek out some of this, I dunno.


Well, I don't know how much marriage affects the legal rights of couples in Australia - I don't live there anymore. But I know it really does strip people of a lot of rights in the States. And like I said, my own opinions of marriage don't negate its importance to other people. 



> I can understand where those arguments were coming from, assuming they weren't just excuses, but I really can't agree with them. My stance on LGBT is as I said above, if I have the opportunity to help them besides voting, I'll do it, but I'd do the same with any random stranger, the sexual orientation doesn't matter, and, personally, it reminds me of the feminist buzz, where some of them put themselves above males, even though that's not the point of feminism.


The only one I can agree with is that I didn't ask to be born in Australia, and certainly not in the family that I was born into. But I also acknowledge that I have a certain amount of privilege within that society, and I think I do have a responsibility to not abuse it, and to understand that not everyone has that. 

I'm wondering if this is an aristocractic/democratic clash in Socionics... 



> Fair enough, I was probably wrong with that statement, as @shinynotshiny has pointed out, but I'd rather just focus on something tangible, aside from the _hope_ that thing'll get better.


No worries. I guess I do see it as something tangible though. It's a real problem in the real world, and real people are making real changes. Tiny changes, but a lot of tiny changes add up to really big change. I wish more people saw that.



> Yeah, I agree, especially in the part regarding the boat policy, it annoys me that even though we're a multicultural country, we still deny people refuge here, just because they're not certified in our laws. Really, the hypocrisy. :frustrating:


You want to understand Fi? We're hypersensitive to moral inconsistency. Hypocrisy is THE WORST. Especially when we're the ones being accused of it. XD

The hypocrisy, the demonisation of desperate people, the deliberate lack of empathy or any kind of vision beyond what we want to see... do not get me started. DO NOT get me started. We are running concentration camps and people JUSTIFY this shit by calling them "illegals". When it's not even illegal. ARGH!!!!



> Though, honestly, yes we are, but it is fun to watch the parody news shows, like Mad as Hell, and watch them take the piss out of the stupid politicians. Still a form of black comedy, though. :laughing: Really, I hate Australia, though it is the place where I currently live, and I don't like any other country more.


Australia has spectacular nature, and so much potential... it's just the people I have a problem with. 

But yeah, if you're mostly watching those kinds of shows, you will see them being mocked mercilessly. I don't know how constructive it is, but it's certainly therapeutic. Apparently Charlie Pickering manages to demolish the faulty logic while being humorous but I wouldn't know, I can't watch ABC's videos from overseas. Mainstream media though, like Murdoch's papers, tend to back up the status quo though.



> I'd rather have the people who worked for it, enjoy the new society they founded rather than people who will take it for granted.


I can understand the sentiment. I guess my own feeling is that if people are going to be leeches, that's for them to live with. I seek control only over myself. If I know I lived up to my own standards, and that I did the best I could, I am satisfied with that. Of course I do care about how others behave themselves, but I guess I only feel comfortable with giving my own opinion. I wouldn't want to control their actions, and I would never want them to negatively influence my actions.



> Oh no, I'm not indigenous at all, in fact, the few that I have met weren't really close enough to me to be even considered friends, actually, reflecting on my non-Caucasian friends, there's a lot of Asians in there. But that's not important. :laughing:
> 
> So, why am I so concerned with this, you may ask? Well, it's mainly the fact that it was cruel, disgusting, and inhumane. I can't even agree with the morals behind it, they are *NOT* a disease you feel you have to _breed_ out, you *DON'T* do that. It's worse than the Holocaust, because they just killed the Jewish, whereas here, they tried to educate them that their way was wrong, and tried to breed them out, like, really, *THEY'RE NOT A DISEASE.* Never mind the fact that *THEY ALSO INVADED THE COUNTRY THEY WERE OCCUPYING.*
> 
> Sorry, it just pisses me off to no end that a country I'm associated with could be that disgustingly arrogant. :angry:


Is this smelling like Fe to anyone else? XD Any reason in particular why you took off the ESTP label?


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> That's very interesting! I find that it's hard to settle on anything solid to make from my mind. I liked the Dreamcatcher approach to minds (archives and data and a furnace to erase unimportant bits) - it's similar to how mine works, but I think it's too fluid to put into still art (although I enjoy drawing and painting), maybe more of a film or animation that never ends?
> 
> 
> @_laurie17_ - Ti is very much like I mentioned above with the archiving/furnace area. I find I continuously move information, file new information etc and can pull it up very fast (unless I'm tired or ill, then my brain goes very quiet and the little guy finding the information cant find it). I also ''burn'' things I dont think I'll need again - after exams I removed sections of information I'm pretty sure I wont need (especially with my change of course, I removed a large chunk of knowledge on publishing in order to fit more information from my science degree).
> It does have a filing system that doesnt work like a normal one (there's an order but not alphabetical etc, maybe more base don importance?) External cues cause files to be pulled out and referred to to check the validity and edits and annotations will be made as required.


OOOh, you know the "mind palace" technique? I know that you are supposed to use something familiar but ehh fuck the rules. So I imagine a giant underground bunker filled with irregular rows of filing cabinets. There's almost no illumination just some bulbs dangling high up on the ceiling, and in the center of it there's a empty space with a table full of papers and a small lamp. So when I need to remember something I put "bookmarks" in that empty space or on a table itself. Bookmarks are papers filled with info that I need to remember and they are guarder by dark "shadows" that look like vaguely ghost-shaped rips in the reality with 6 white glowing eyes around where you'd expect their head to be. :happy:


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Hm... It's a cavernous place full of images that dart around corners or crawl up into the cracks. Sometimes they ooze down. You walk through this cavern until you reach breaks in the dark walls. Through those, you're able to see a world of brilliant colour and light, with rolling hills and forests, the air coloured by rainbows and clouds turned orange-pink by something between a sunset and sunrise. It's crowded with indistinct figures that half-exist until you concentrate on them, then they spring forwards and grip hold of you (and sometimes take you on journeys, if you're lucky). Stars hang low in the sky, some from strings, others as pure white light. There is no moon or sun and time doesn't exist. Everything shifts and swirls as you move through it, sometimes overlapping with other places or concepts or feelings.
> 
> That's about as close as I can get...


Laurie that was beautiful! Why can't I word :sadcloud:

Interesting that your mind is a cavern. Mine's more a forest with waterfalls and old stone towers, tinged with greens and blues. I have stars too, but also the moon. And sometimes night makes way for day. Oh I wish I could explain things better! This is why I often refuse to even try. My words will never measure up to what I experience.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 19! (as explained in the other thread). I saw the image of the #19 with you! I dont really see YOU lol. Hmmm... fair skin? lighter hair? I may be way off. I just KNEW you were 19
> 
> 
> 
> So, wait, you have nothing on my appearance besides fair skin and lighter hair (which makes me seem like a typical white supremacist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), but you knew I was 19? How odd.
Click to expand...

Hah. Yup. I only 'saw' the image of the number 19 when thinking of you. The features were mere guesses. It is very odd.


----------



## Greyhart

help


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Hah. Yup. I only 'saw' the image of the number 19 when thinking of you. The features were mere guesses. It is very odd.


That's actually kind of freaky, did you have to burn someone alive to get that result? :wink:


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> OOOh, you know the "mind palace" technique? I know that you are supposed to use something familiar but ehh fuck the rules. So I imagine a giant underground bunker filled with irregular rows of filing cabinets. There's almost no illumination just some bulbs dangling high up on the ceiling, and in the center of it there's a empty space with a table full of papers and a small lamp. So when I need to remember something I put "bookmarks" in that empty space or on a table itself. Bookmarks are papers filled with info that I need to remember and they are guarder by dark "shadows" that look like vaguely ghost-shaped rips in the reality with 6 white glowing eyes around where you'd expect their head to be. :happy:


Have you seen Dreamcatcher? I think you'd like the way they present the mind in that (like @tine was saying, as far as I remember). I wish I could do something like that... It sounds so organised.



ElliCat said:


> Laurie that was beautiful! Why can't I word :sadcloud:
> 
> Interesting that your mind is a cavern. Mine's more a forest with waterfalls and old stone towers, tinged with greens and blues. I have stars too, but also the moon. And sometimes night makes way for day. Oh I wish I could explain things better! This is why I often refuse to even try. My words will never measure up to what I experience.


Oh, thank you :teapot: I haven't written in a couple of days (due to stress) so I think it kind of... spilled out.

Yours sounds really nice (and so peaceful)! You should definitely keep trying - it's taken years of practice for me to even be able to form something that's passable (and still falls far too short for me to be happy with it). I think I started off literally going 'and there was a tree by a river and [protagonist] walked along side the river for a while' etc. If it's worth anything, as long as you have the image, you'll be able to get part of it out if you practice! (Writing is one of my major joys in life so I get slightly too enthusiastic about it.)




Greyhart said:


> help


Um... Just... reset the entire internet so they go away?


----------



## Barakiel

ElliCat said:


> Oh it's incredible, what kind of crap people buy into. And I guess a lot of it is absorbed half-concsiously, so people are sort of in denial about it and get all angry when you try to point out their unconscious biases. XD I put a lot of effort into uncovering all the shit I've internalised so it all becomes painfully obvious to me, but it's a bit disappointing that others don't show the same interest in conquering their own prejudices.


You're an odd Fi user. :dry: Haha, I agree, though I suppose I have some demons within me as well that someone needs to bash my head in with, preferably with Te. :wink:



ElliCat said:


> I'm assuming not all parts of Sydney are liberal paradises though.  I had trains going through my home town but no passenger trains since the 60's or 70's I guess. Only coal. Glorious, good-for-humanity, coal. None of those ugly renewable energy producers; we value our health out in the sticks!


Haha, at least you're not as bad as my stepdad's friends, who, I shit you not, have Mother for breakfast. Yes, the extremely unhealthy energy drink. :laughing:



ElliCat said:


> Well, I don't know how much marriage affects the legal rights of couples in Australia - I don't live there anymore. But I know it really does strip people of a lot of rights in the States. And like I said, my own opinions of marriage don't negate its importance to other people.


Screw legal rights, you shouldn't have to be married to be considered a couple, that's just stupid. :frustrating:



ElliCat said:


> The only one I can agree with is that I didn't ask to be born in Australia, and certainly not in the family that I was born into. But I also acknowledge that I have a certain amount of privilege within that society, and I think I do have a responsibility to not abuse it, and to understand that not everyone has that.
> 
> I'm wondering if this is an aristocractic/democratic clash in Socionics...


Haha, I can empathize, although my family isn't terrible, I have an ISTJ single mother, and an absolutely annoying sister who's... I think NFJ? Not too sure on that front. If she is an NFJ, she's a very unflattering one. :wink:

From what I bothered to read of the huge article, I agree, though it is interesting how you say I'm SF or NT here, and then below, you argue for me being STP. :laughing: Also, am I the only person freaked out by how detailed Socionics here? It's not as easy to get into as MBTI, that's for damn sure. :dry:



ElliCat said:


> No worries. I guess I do see it as something tangible though. It's a real problem in the real world, and real people are making real changes. Tiny changes, but a lot of tiny changes add up to really big change. I wish more people saw that.


Eh, I'd rather protect someone right in front of me from being abused than plead and hope that their abuse won't happen again. Then again, I suppose that's my Se at works, which just wants to take every problem I have, buy as big a hammer as I can afford, and solve all my problems with that. :dry:



ElliCat said:


> You want to understand Fi? We're hypersensitive to moral inconsistency. Hypocrisy is THE WORST. Especially when we're the ones being accused of it. XD
> 
> The hypocrisy, the demonisation of desperate people, the deliberate lack of empathy or any kind of vision beyond what we want to see... do not get me started. DO NOT get me started. We are running concentration camps and people JUSTIFY this shit by calling them "illegals". When it's not even illegal. ARGH!!!!


Oh, trust me, I know, my inferior Te is both a blessing and a curse, cause it makes me hyper critical of myself, especially in regards to my own morality, I seem to contradict how I feel a lot. :laughing: I still hate hypocrisy in other people though, probably cause it reminds me of myself.



ElliCat said:


> Australia has spectacular nature, and so much potential... it's just the people I have a problem with.
> 
> But yeah, if you're mostly watching those kinds of shows, you will see them being mocked mercilessly. I don't know how constructive it is, but it's certainly therapeutic. Apparently Charlie Pickering manages to demolish the faulty logic while being humorous but I wouldn't know, I can't watch ABC's videos from overseas. Mainstream media though, like Murdoch's papers, tend to back up the status quo though.


Eh, I don't like Australia, but it's as bad as any other country, none of them appeal to me. :dry: And yeah, says a lot that Shaun Micallef and Charlie Pickering were on the same show, as they have a similar style of satire. :laughing:



ElliCat said:


> I can understand the sentiment. I guess my own feeling is that if people are going to be leeches, that's for them to live with. I seek control only over myself. If I know I lived up to my own standards, and that I did the best I could, I am satisfied with that. Of course I do care about how others behave themselves, but I guess I only feel comfortable with giving my own opinion. I wouldn't want to control their actions, and I would never want them to negatively influence my actions.


It's more of a thing that I value their efforts, and I can't stand people denying them of the rewards of that. Maybe that's something I need to work on, though. 



ElliCat said:


> Is this smelling like Fe to anyone else? XD Any reason in particular why you took off the ESTP label?


Because shit like this keeps happening, and people keep doubting. :laughing: Nah, it's mainly because I have a bit of Te to me, which really can't be explained in a Ti-Fe axis. :dry: It mainly pisses me off that people can be so sure of themselves, even when doing something like that. You can take a look at my thread, though, I'll actually take the effort to tag you, feel honored. :cheers2:


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> help


O_O HOW



laurie17 said:


> Oh, thank you :teapot: I haven't written in a couple of days (due to stress) so I think it kind of... spilled out.
> 
> Yours sounds really nice (and so peaceful)! You should definitely keep trying - it's taken years of practice for me to even be able to form something that's passable (and still falls far too short for me to be happy with it). I think I started off literally going 'and there was a tree by a river and [protagonist] walked along side the river for a while' etc. If it's worth anything, as long as you have the image, you'll be able to get part of it out if you practice! (Writing is one of my major joys in life so I get slightly too enthusiastic about it.)


The funny thing is, I used to write a LOT! I just lost the energy for it, I guess, when I started having to adult (well, depression and then adult-ing). But you're right, I probably should start again. The amount of times I go to write "just a quick post" and then an hour later I've written half a novel for the benefit of PerC. :lovekitty:

I'm too much of a perfectionist for my own good.

I'm watching some travel documentary set in Peru. My Spanish is so bad that I only understand the heavily accented Spanish of one of the English guys. :hampster:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> OOOh, you know the "mind palace" technique? I know that you are supposed to use something familiar but ehh fuck the rules. So I imagine a giant underground bunker filled with irregular rows of filing cabinets. There's almost no illumination just some bulbs dangling high up on the ceiling, and in the center of it there's a empty space with a table full of papers and a small lamp. So when I need to remember something I put "bookmarks" in that empty space or on a table itself. Bookmarks are papers filled with info that I need to remember and they are guarder by dark "shadows" that look like vaguely ghost-shaped rips in the reality with 6 white glowing eyes around where you'd expect their head to be. :happy:


Haha I guess it is that technique, but I never thought of it that way! Yeah its kind of like that for me too :teapot: I dont really have a solid image of it, but it's a similar concept! Do you control the ghost shapes?


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Have you seen Dreamcatcher? I think you'd like the way they present the mind in that (like @tine was saying, as far as I remember). I wish I could do something like that... It sounds so organised.


Dreamcatcher (2003) - IMDb ? Gon check.

I like my bunker precisely because it's dark, papers are falling out of cabinets, pathways between them are irregular and have lots of dead-ends. Also it's creepy. I like creepy. So it's far from organized. I don't remember how I came up with this originally but I liked "visuals" and stored it until I watched Sherlock and found out about that technique.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> I couldn't find the picture, but here's the weird sculpture (I apologise if you expected real art, this was for a project I had a couple of hours for and... I didn't like GCSE Art).
> View attachment 342202
> 
> View attachment 342210
> 
> View attachment 342218
> 
> The back bit comes through the eyes and there's a tiny golden tear as the ideas are all blocked up inside and make the tiny purple head sad.


It's so cool and terrifying!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> I couldn't find the picture, but here's the weird sculpture (I apologise if you expected real art, this was for a project I had a couple of hours for and... I didn't like GCSE Art).
> View attachment 342202
> 
> View attachment 342210
> 
> View attachment 342218
> 
> The back bit comes through the eyes and there's a tiny golden tear as the ideas are all blocked up inside and make the tiny purple head sad.


That's really gorgeous, Laurie. Thank you for sharing.  I love how the brain is so colorful.


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> It's so cool and terrifying!


Perfect! 



alittlebear said:


> That's really gorgeous, Laurie. Thank you for sharing.  I love how the brain is so colorful.


Really? Thanks! XD It's... interesting. My mum said it looked like a Bafta award. (But yeah, GCSE Art was just bad. For organic shapes, I made a sculpture of an orange because I didn't want to do it for an entire term.)


----------



## orbit

My mind art project would be a pale orange gear whirling underwater. Or maybe not.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> I couldn't find the picture, but here's the weird sculpture (I apologise if you expected real art, this was for a project I had a couple of hours for and... I didn't like GCSE Art).
> View attachment 342202
> 
> View attachment 342210
> 
> View attachment 342218
> 
> The back bit comes through the eyes and there's a tiny golden tear as the ideas are all blocked up inside and make the tiny purple head sad.


Haha what's "real art"? :laughing:

I like the concept and I'm especially drawn to the colors. I have no idea what I'd be able to do with clay or any kind of sculpting.


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Haha what's "real art"? :laughing:
> 
> I like the concept and I'm especially drawn to the colors. I have no idea what I'd be able to do with clay or any kind of sculpting.


Like... good art?

I'm very scared you guys like it (and happy :teapot. I sort of made it as a half-hearted effort to not take the work the teacher wanted me to do very seriously, so gave it meaning only for me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> My mind art project would be a pale orange gear whirling underwater. Or maybe not.


You are quite orange


----------



## Persephone Soul

Stereotypically, which of the feeling types would be most easily annoyed, especially with people? No reason. Just curious.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

General question that I don't feel comfortable posting in the advice forum at this time. Is there any way for one to be confident and self assured without being arrogant?

I'm tired of always being so outwardly unsure of myself, but I'm not sure how I could shirk that cover without going into arrogant, self assuming territory.


----------



## Immolate

Arrogance is a sense of superiority, flaunting what you know, the intent is to put others down, make them feel beneath you. Just be confident but nice? Put that Fe to use?

:eagerness:


So I came across this video. Fascinating and horrifying.








> Meanwhile in a world far, far away ...
> 
> This is a short film created during the "Porgrave" shooting, the latest film by Sandro Bocci, that will be released in late 2015. ...Meanwhile... shows the world of marine animals like corals and starfish at high magnification and during long time span through the timelapse. The music almost alien and disturbing has been joined to the images that stimulate mental associations to create a contrast, stimulate synesthesia and feelings do not necessarily harmonics and assonant.
> 
> This is an infinitesimal part of the wonderful world in which we live and of which we should take better care. A trip through a different perspective that would encourage reflection on the consequences of our actions on each scale of space and time.
> 
> Enjoy the vision...


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> General question that I don't feel comfortable posting in the advice forum at this time. Is there any way for one to be confident and self assured without being arrogant?
> 
> I'm tired of always being so outwardly unsure of myself, but I'm not sure how I could shirk that cover without going into arrogant, self assuming territory.


I think...only if it's genuine.
Just be Tom Hiddleston. I think he's got the formula down. (And I think he's an ENFJ so it should be easy for you)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> General question that I don't feel comfortable posting in the advice forum at this time. Is there any way for one to be confident and self assured without being arrogant?
> 
> I'm tired of always being so outwardly unsure of myself, but I'm not sure how I could shirk that cover without going into arrogant, self assuming territory.


absolutely!

though I am at a lost for explaining how. I think it is about having belief in your ability to accomplish something and find the right answers (even if that means consulting someone else...i think confident people have no qualms about consulting others), rather than assuming that you will always be right and never make mistakes, since the latter can lead to arrogance. :/


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> General question that I don't feel comfortable posting in the advice forum at this time. Is there any way for one to be confident and self assured without being arrogant?
> 
> I'm tired of always being so outwardly unsure of myself, but I'm not sure how I could shirk that cover without going into arrogant, self assuming territory.


Well, since you don't want to be considered arrogant, be openly self derisive and screw with people's perceptions. :laughing: And since you don't want to be unsure about yourself anymore, well, I can't give you any advice on that front, because I haven't solved it myself. :ssad:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@shinynotshiny

I need to start replying with either "I don't know how to analyze that sorry" or "...I need to think about this".

Sometimes I draw a blank or don't know how to word it or don't have an answer on the spot. And my analysis can sometimes be draining because I utilize much effort, so I will procrastinate. Sometimes I also take Perc breaks.

This is a problem. I come across as detached or cold quite a bit. It is rude, and I need to stop.


----------



## Dangerose

Honestly I think confidence and self-esteem are really overrated personality traits though.
Not that they're bad, necessarily, but I don't think they're as great as they're cracked up to be.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> absolutely!
> 
> though I am at a lost for explaining how. I think it is about having belief in your ability to accomplish something and find the right answers (even if that means consulting someone else...i think confident people have no qualms about consulting others), rather than assuming that you will always be right and never make mistakes, since the latter can lead to arrogance. :/


 @Greyhart can't you see Ti here?

Looking to others for help could be interpreted as empirical Te sure, but the emphasis on double checking for mistakes or errors in logic for purity is how I can understand where others have argued Ti.

@fair phantom is a tricky one. Some sort of INP at least. It's F/T that is ambiguous. I... really don't know why you switched to E btw. It is your choice, but I see you as a solid introvert. Especially your dislike of small talk.


----------



## Barakiel

Well, if we're going to type @fair phantom, I hope no one doubts Ne, cause that's pretty bloody obvious. Aside from that, I'm not really sure, though I will say that I get a different vibe from her than Fi dominants. But that's not really evidence, per say, so not useful.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Honestly I think confidence and self-esteem are really overrated personality traits though.
> Not that they're bad, necessarily, but I don't think they're as great as they're cracked up to be.


But conversely, they also negate the possibility of such riveting traits such as self-loathing and unwillingness to commit, which, well, who wouldn't want those lovely traits? :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Thank you @Barakiel @fair phantom @Oswin I'm not really sure what I'm going to do. Part of it is... I don't have belief that I can survive like, anything. I feel like a limp balloon. I am incapable. Saying otherwise is lying to myself. And, beyond that... Acting self assured could lead to me to be too accepting of my viewpoint, less apt to accept those of others. And that's what I want to avoid - close-mindedness. Ignorance. Being bloated by myself. 

Plus, like, can a 9 be like that anyway? I know that's a crooked question but I mean, just this morning I was thinking how much I love being unassuming and making myself small in the world. 

I don't know. Stuff to think on. But for now I have to watch the kids outside ^^


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> Honestly I think confidence and self-esteem are really overrated personality traits though.
> Not that they're bad, necessarily, but I don't think they're as great as they're cracked up to be.


I would argue the opposite.

Humbleness and humility are overrated. 

Arrogant pride is abhorred in modern day society. This is understandable. I say check your pride. Is it really deserved? If it is... there is no denying that you're excellent at something or fulfill a generally desired property (e.g. attractiveness). That does not mean you should tear others down for being "less" than you are (or that fulfilling roles others do not fulfill makes you better than them), but by all means, be proud of yourself. Saying "I am very intelligent" or "I am gorgeous" is fine if you are (though I wish attractiveness didn't receive the merit it does, but I understand this is intrinsic to humanity; though I do believe this could be altered to an extent). Discussing competence when you have none... is annoying, though I understand it's difficult to admit to it (and I'm likely being a hypocrite).

We are too quick to call upon arrogance. This diminishes self esteem, which causes a host of problems. People need to feel better about themselves.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

alittlebear said:


> Thank you @_Barakiel_ @_fair phantom_ @_Oswin_ I'm not really sure what I'm going to do. Part of it is... I don't have belief that I can survive like, anything. I feel like a limp balloon. I am incapable. Saying otherwise is lying to myself. And, beyond that... Acting self assured could lead to me to be too accepting of my viewpoint, less apt to accept those of others. And that's what I want to avoid - close-mindedness. Ignorance. Being bloated by myself.
> 
> Plus, like, can a 9 be like that anyway? I know that's a crooked question but I mean, just this morning I was thinking *how much I love being unassuming and making myself small in the world. *
> 
> I don't know. Stuff to think on. But for now I have to watch the kids outside ^^



Bold: Yep, you're a Nine. XD Or possibly a Two. But I'll go with Nine for now. 

Actually, I'm a core Nine and I can relate to feeling like self-esteem is self-delusion. Though I think I'm odd in that my "smallness" kind of bugs me on an emotional level...


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Thank you @Barakiel @fair phantom @Oswin I'm not really sure what I'm going to do. Part of it is... I don't have belief that I can survive like, anything. I feel like a limp balloon. I am incapable. Saying otherwise is lying to myself. And, beyond that... Acting self assured could lead to me to be too accepting of my viewpoint, less apt to accept those of others. And that's what I want to avoid - close-mindedness. Ignorance. Being bloated by myself.
> 
> Plus, like, can a 9 be like that anyway? I know that's a crooked question but I mean, just this morning I was thinking how much I love being unassuming and making myself small in the world.
> 
> I don't know. Stuff to think on. But for now I have to watch the kids outside ^^


Well, first off, why do you feel so frail and incapable? Because you're really not, and deluding yourself otherwise is the same as being falsely arrogant.

As for the 9 thing, well, I imagine 9s will even restrict themselves for maintaining their own, personal peace. And, contrary to popular belief, 1s are not rigid, they just seem like that because of their hyper-critical nature towards themselves, kind of like how inferior Te operates. Though, if it helps, I sometimes would just like to not be noticed, although that's actually related to my stutter and not wanting to be a part of the group.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Honestly I think confidence and self-esteem are really overrated personality traits though.
> Not that they're bad, necessarily, but I don't think they're as great as they're cracked up to be.


there are healthy levels, and going too much higher or lower is a problem. Low self esteem and confidence can be crippling and self-destructive.

@hoopla I don't know. PI think Ne doms often hate small talk. @Greyhart ? Part of it is that people said I appeared extroverted in my video and I don't meet @arkigos ' standard for Fi-dom. I wound up settling on ENFP after a rebellion against typing altogether. 

I feel a bit like an mbti Rorscharch test. :highly_amused:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I protest!
> 
> -
> @_hoopla_
> 
> It's fine, it was a misunderstanding. Usually dreams are a way to process information from our day-to-day, but they do occasionally reflect aspects of who we are or what we feel. I've always experienced vivid dreaming, even lucid dreaming, except the lucid dreams manifest in such a way that I'm aware of the dream but don't have complete control over it. If I do find myself breaking the dream, I more often than not wake up in another dream and the process starts all over again. I remember waking up the other night telling myself, "Okay, I have to make sure this isn't a dream, I'm going to lean against that wall and see if I fall through but damn I keep running but going nowhere everything is glitching this is another dream." That's why sleeping can be so tiring for me


Not sure this means anything function wise.... probably just dreaming in general. There's a name for waking up and believing the dream is real? Isn't there? I forgot it if so. I do the same thing. And it's actually why I hate dreaming to a certain extent.

Then again I'm not the dream expert so go ask Freud.

I do think dreams can stimulate the mind however and do speak to a part of our subconsiciousness. Definitely. 

What is your take on dream analysis? How about the symbols of dreams?



shinynotshiny said:


> As for messages: the course of human progress or stagnation, gender roles or lack thereof, what it means to love and hate and move on, how we fit together as a society or find ourselves on the outskirts, so on and so forth.
> 
> About the future and modern age: I briefly talked about it in one of my surveys, so I'll copy/paste it here because I'm feeling lazy


Yes, you still strike me as a Pi dominate. Your view of the world strikes me as internalized. Your meaning of objects is clearly subjective (the borg example was great). Ni/Si... why is it less clear? I hate not knowing.

I agree that technology does not remove one from humanity. Technology helps humanity. It's just the belief that logic negates emotion (total bullshit). 

What does the body symbolize?

Why will we need reevaluate life and personhood, and how will we do that?

There. I gave what I owed you two days ago. Not as hard as I thought.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Thank you @Barakiel @fair phantom @Oswin I'm not really sure what I'm going to do. Part of it is... I don't have belief that I can survive like, anything. I feel like a limp balloon. I am incapable. Saying otherwise is lying to myself. And, beyond that... Acting self assured could lead to me to be too accepting of my viewpoint, less apt to accept those of others. And that's what I want to avoid - close-mindedness. Ignorance. Being bloated by myself.
> 
> Plus, like, can a 9 be like that anyway? I know that's a crooked question but I mean, just this morning I was thinking how much I love being unassuming and making myself small in the world.
> 
> I don't know. Stuff to think on. But for now I have to watch the kids outside ^^


This is all-or-nothing thinking. To borrow the Buddhist phrase: find the middle way.

Well 9s are _supposed_ to become more confident and assertive. Integrating the positive traits of 3 is important to overcoming the stagnation of 9's basic fears and desires. :encouragement:

Have fun watching the kids!! :ball:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> there are healthy levels, and going too much higher or lower is a problem. Low self esteem and confidence can be crippling and self-destructive.
> 
> @hoopla I don't know. PI think Ne doms often hate small talk. @Greyhart ? Part of it is that people said I appeared extroverted in my video and I don't meet @arkigos ' standard for Fi-dom. I wound up settling on ENFP after a rebellion against typing altogether.
> 
> I feel a bit like an mbti Rorscharch test. :highly_amused:


Yes, I think your point about Ne is very true. Small talk is often a sensory thing, if you think about it. Maybe they like... invigorating small talk. Does that exist?

He has pretty rigid standards. Not that they never waver or earn a reevaluation, but his criteria is quite exacting. It's also controversial. I like that.

I say I dislike controversy... and then I say that I do. I am fickle. Yin yang I suppose.

Well I think it's because your video was long. And I think it's a bit of a myth that introverts can never contribute at length. It's generally accepted that extroverts like to be alone sometimes... so why can't introverts be talkative when something engages them? I think the lack of gab is attributed to the fact that introverts have a tendency to think before they speak... not that extroverts don't. They do, but they seem more comfortable with quick calls on things. And introverts can mouth vomit too.

I would love to take the rorscharch test but I've been exposed to the images via pseudo quizzes, so an authentic one wouldn't work.

Ugh Buddhism is lovely but I know little about it. I ordered books on amazon though. Yay. I probably should have discovered it earlier. I was super into yoga as a child (though ignorant to the Buddhist ties). A friend in 10th grade introduced me to meditation. So lovely. I quit using these methods. I entered severe depression. I suffered from anhedonia (lack of interest). Even books were hard to read. I am going back on ze pills and am trying to retrain pleasure. It's coming back... but I need outside help, even if I *hate* receiving it. I would love to do yoga more regularly... motivation is zapped man. I need a full life.


----------



## Max

I can't sleep. I really can't. I'm not even tired. And I am so hungry. My head is sore but ai don't wanna move. My bed is so comfy. My headphones are so bassy. I need to go to the kitchen, but it's so far away. Dang, I am having a lazy night tonight. Watching Youtube videos and being fascinated by Justin Jedlica. Human Ken Doll. Ended up on a video about a trans woman being disfigured by black market silicone which had glue and everything bad in it. Geez. Just posting to say hello, and I am so bored. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Deadly Decorum

I agree with everyone @alittlebear. Why are you so hard on yourself? You're very intelligent (and no this is not a white lie to make you feel better) and I believe your goals could be put into fruition if you just *believed*. You're also so damn sweet. It's hard to imagine you deliberately hurting someone. So play some affirmation tapes please.


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> I would argue the opposite.
> 
> Humbleness and humility are overrated.
> 
> Arrogant pride is abhorred in modern day society. This is understandable. I say check your pride. Is it really deserved? If it is... there is no denying that you're excellent at something or fulfill a generally desired property (e.g. attractiveness). That does not mean you should tear others down for being "less" than you are (or that fulfilling roles others do not fulfill makes you better than them), but by all means, be proud of yourself. Saying "I am very intelligent" or "I am gorgeous" is fine if you are (though I wish attractiveness didn't receive the merit it does, but I understand this is intrinsic to humanity; though I do believe this could be altered to an extent). Discussing competence when you have none... is annoying, though I understand it's difficult to admit to it (and I'm likely being a hypocrite).
> 
> We are too quick to call upon arrogance. This diminishes self esteem, which causes a host of problems. People need to feel better about themselves.


Yeah but ... feeling 'better about youself' means absolutely nothing. It's better to be honest with yourself. The problem with our society isn't that we have too high standards (or too low standards, which sometimes I think), it's that we have standards that are just off. We act like things like humility and things don't matter, the one virtue is competence and confidence. It's such BS though. Not everyone's competent. Not everyone needs to be competent. No one needs this fake balloon confidence that they teach in schools. We need more of a realistic way of looking at ourselves. We should be able to say "Amy is fat and Jane is thin" without it being a value judgment...ugh, I'm not making sense I think. 

But we value all these false traits, which means that most confidence is false confidence and most humility is false humility. 

True confidence and true humility are probably the same thing.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> Yeah but ... feeling 'better about youself' means absolutely nothing. It's better to be honest with yourself. The problem with our society isn't that we have too high standards (or too low standards, which sometimes I think), it's that we have standards that are just off. We act like things like humility and things don't matter, the one virtue is competence and confidence. It's such BS though. Not everyone's competent. Not everyone needs to be competent. No one needs this fake balloon confidence that they teach in schools. We need more of a realistic way of looking at ourselves. We should be able to say "Amy is fat and Jane is thin" without it being a value judgment...ugh, I'm not making sense I think.
> 
> But we value all these false traits, which means that most confidence is false confidence and most humility is false humility.
> 
> True confidence and true humility are probably the same thing.


"standard are off" strikes me as Si unless I am misinterpreting. Care to elaborate?

Being honest with yourself was my entire point.

I think standards are too high in some areas, and too low in others.

I disagree about humility; I think there is a higher emphasis on that than confidence due to the arrogance fear, and that needs to be shredded. I believe competence is misplaced. We look too much into intellect (which is important... but that value can turn into eugenics quite quickly) or prestige (which means nothing for many reasons). Yes, I believe viewing qualities neutrally will solve much of this problem! Maybe in the future... but probably not 100%, as I believe part of this is human nature, but I might but eliminating potentiality with that one.

Yes, pureness of both confidence and humility is what we should strive for.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Thank you @Barakiel @fair phantom @Oswin I'm not really sure what I'm going to do. Part of it is... I don't have belief that I can survive like, anything. I feel like a limp balloon. I am incapable. Saying otherwise is lying to myself. And, beyond that... Acting self assured could lead to me to be too accepting of my viewpoint, less apt to accept those of others. And that's what I want to avoid - close-mindedness. Ignorance. Being bloated by myself.


What are you incapable of though?
I don't know you in real life so I don't really know what you mean. From what I've seen of you, you seem to be capable of more than me (at least in certain area). I think you have to be careful not to compare apples and oranges.
I mean, it's really cliché to say, everyone's good at something, but it's true. No one is going to be good at everything. You have a unique, not-easily-definable set of strengths (and weaknesses). God made you a certain way for a reason. The Parable of the Talents I think is really relevant in this sort of situation. The one brother didn't think he had enough...so he buried them, instead of investing them. You have to work with what you've been given...not what you think you should've been given. Figure out what that is, and you won't be insecure. I think insecurity comes from...not knowing how much you have, not knowing where you stand. But if you figure out what you realistically can do, what your real talents are (they are probably not as obvious as 'playing piano' or something) then you'll be both confident, and humble.


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> "standard are off" strikes me as Si unless I am misinterpreting. Care to elaborate?


I would but I think you got it) Maybe it is Si)
I just don't agree about the confidence/humility thing. I mean, you walk into any school/office and you've got posters up like "Self-Esteem!" "Confidence!" "You Can Do It!" and they put gold stars on everything, don't grade students, teachers won't even correct anything. You never see people teaching humility out in public. 
Basically, I would rather know someone with too-low self-esteem than too-high. Though 'correct self-esteem' is of course the best solution.


----------



## Vermillion

*Can someone explain to me how the fuck this thread has 8400 responses and counting.* Like wtf has been going on that I don't know about? Because I really want to know about it O_O


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> I would but I think you got it) Maybe it is Si).



Is the standard an objective formula? Or is based on the way life is supposed to be, through your angle? 



Oswin said:


> I just don't agree about the confidence/humility thing. I mean, you walk into any school/office and you've got posters up like "Self-Esteem!" "Confidence!" "You Can Do It!" and they put gold stars on everything, don't grade students, teachers won't even correct anything. You never see people teaching humility out in public.
> Basically, I would rather know someone with too-low self-esteem than too-high. Though 'correct self-esteem' is of course the best solution.


Good point. It probably goes both ways.

I suppose my argument lies in those who trash you if you consider yourself intelligent or beautiful. And the products geared towards individuals to become more intelligent, beautiful, rich, whatever have you. Consumerism leads people to believe they are missing something and need more, which is intentional to lower one's esteem in order to make them feel as if they must buy that shiny or innovative thing.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Ah, the other child went home and my household child is in the vicinity. I'll have to reply probably to your posts, though I might quote and add to this one to not hog up too much space. Thank you everyone for your comments though.


Oswin said:


> What are you incapable of though?
> I don't know you in real life so I don't really know what you mean. From what I've seen of you, you seem to be capable of more than me (at least in certain area). I think you have to be careful not to compare apples and oranges.
> I mean, it's really cliché to say, everyone's good at something, but it's true. No one is going to be good at everything. You have a unique, not-easily-definable set of strengths (and weaknesses). God made you a certain way for a reason. The Parable of the Talents I think is really relevant in this sort of situation. The one brother didn't think he had enough...so he buried them, instead of investing them. You have to work with what you've been given...not what you think you've been given. Figure out what that is, and you won't be insecure. I think insecurity comes from...not knowing how much you have, not knowing where you stand. But if you figure out what you realistically can do, what your real talents are (they are probably not as obvious as 'playing piano' or something) then you'll be both confident, and humble.


Incapable of... I don't know. Surviving, maybe? Surviving socially, being what other people wanting me to be, passing the class? I mean, example, I can act confident about a test as if I will certainly score high on it, I will succeed, but that just makes it more blistering when I get a C on it, to my shame. I see people survive these blows, but it would still feel humiliating to me. Better to give into the self doubt outwardly - "Oh, I don't know, I tried to study, I'm not sure -" - and succeed later with a humble smile than to act confident that I will succeed and fail. And the thing is, even when you're confident you can do well on a test, even if you did study all night, sometimes you do fail. And that's how I feel about life in general. 

I mean, some things I am good at? I'm good at understanding documents, doing history-type things (it's a variety of things but I have a knack for it, goodness knows why), understanding literature, to some extent fictional writing, taking care of kids, being friendly, being kind, working hard, comprehending theology, etc. But even then, sometimes I fall short. (And, for example, sometimes when I'm confident professors get turned off. Like my Literature professor, Literature is what I am most passionate about academia wise and what I feel most confident in, and even though I still tried to be open-minded when approaching my professor he took it upon himself to bring me down a few notches because he thought me too arrogant and self-assured. But in my History class, my professor thought I was a good student... and I openly admitted I was clueless about that. People respond better to an unsure person, sometimes.) 

I like your thoughts about confidence and humility, how true confidence is true humility. I also agree with what you're saying about how confidence is valued by society today while humility is not... and should I give in to that? I value humility over confidence, and I don't want to be a false cave of myself to please others, but falling short of what I know to be correct. (The thing is, people _will_ look down on me for being unassuming, regardless that I don't want them to. I have to choose one or the other, in a sense. But I do want that "balance" that @fair phantom mentioned, I suppose.)

But also, thank you for your words, Oswin.  You're always so kind. And I can't believe you would in any way consider myself "more capable" than you are. You sound pretty incredible, and I'm not just saying that. You know so much, you care so much, you understand so much, you believe so much, you do so much. Don't forget that about yourself either.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Amaterasu said:


> *Can someone explain to me how the fuck this thread has 8400 responses and counting.* Like wtf has been going on that I don't know about? Because I really want to know about it O_O


Can someone explain because I don't know an explanation


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Bold: Yep, you're a Nine. XD Or possibly a Two. But I'll go with Nine for now.
> 
> Actually, I'm a core Nine and I can relate to feeling like self-esteem is self-delusion. Though I think I'm odd in that my "smallness" kind of bugs me on an emotional level...


I'm actually pretty sure I'm not a 2. I admire outwardly 2 traits, and I've tried to assume them... but really, I'm just squeezing myself into a shoe that doesn't fit. I've got a pinch of 2 in me, but mainly my stress is 9 stress. 

I'm glad you relate though. Makes me feel not so alone.  I'll probably make a topic in the forum soon about it, see if anyone has some advice on how to get past this. 

As for "smallness"... I don't know. I like just seeing the world, watching it, observing, then throwing a pinch of help in the air to make it a better place in my small way. It's nice to participate - and I _love_ participating, I crave it, I'm an Extrovert - but a lot of times I also just like to sit back and soak in all the beauty of the silliness of the world and other people that enhances their true beauty. I don't know. I like to participate, and of course I want to step in and change the world, I love entertaining the thought that people _see me_ as I see them, that they notice the soft beautiful things about me as I do them... but then again it's difficult, because I am such a work in progress and such a perfectionist that I hate stepping out into the world until I have perfected myself. It's difficult, I guess, but... I think I'll figure it out in time. Maybe.



Barakiel said:


> Well, first off, why do you feel so frail and incapable? Because you're really not, and deluding yourself otherwise is the same as being falsely arrogant.
> 
> As for the 9 thing, well, I imagine 9s will even restrict themselves for maintaining their own, personal peace. And, contrary to popular belief, 1s are not rigid, they just seem like that because of their hyper-critical nature towards themselves, kind of like how inferior Te operates. Though, if it helps, I sometimes would just like to not be noticed, although that's actually related to my stutter and not wanting to be a part of the group.


Ah, I think we've found another case where we see different distinctions.  Self deprecation and arrogance are both delusions, but they are very separate and different delusions that do not have the essential thing the same about them. 

I feel frail and incapable, honestly, because I have GAD and PTSD. I mean this is the result of those two disorders. Many say that if you have GAD, you're destined to be a nervous, jumpy, unassured person... but I'm sick of it. I don't want to be too confident, but I want to be... strident. I want my movements to be confident and assured. I don't want to skitter away to accommodate people and make room for them when they aren't even put of by my presence as I think they are. I'm tired of this, I'm tired of appearing a scattered, nervous person. But alas, many believe it's what I am destined to do. As for PTSD... Well, I mean, I have been broken. I have been taught through action and word that I am nothing, that I am not only utterly incapable but also undeserving of breath, of continuation. And that does negative wonders for any small self image a hypersensitive person can have. Of course you would tell yourself they're wrong, of course that's not true, but it's so difficult when you've seen yourself break, when you know you can break, when you're hardly pasted together currently, chunks still spewed away in places you can't even retrace. Life lacks permenance, and you realize that while you think you can do something, you used to believe you could do anything... now you realize the reality is you could fall at any moment. Untraumatized people aren't haunted as much by this knowledge of what seems inevitable to us. The fall we will not stand up from. 

Oh, but have you decided on 1? I can see that for you, at least as maybe your second fix. 7w8 somewhere, 4w3 somewhere, but 1 is certainly a strong influence in you (I would imagine  ) 



fair phantom said:


> there are healthy levels, and going too much higher or lower is a problem. Low self esteem and confidence can be crippling and self-destructive.
> 
> @hoopla I don't know. PI think Ne doms often hate small talk. @Greyhart ? Part of it is that people said I appeared extroverted in my video and I don't meet @arkigos ' standard for Fi-dom. I wound up settling on ENFP after a rebellion against typing altogether.
> 
> I feel a bit like an mbti Rorscharch test. :highly_amused:


Yes, I need to figure that out. Right now I'm considering making a list of things I am for sure and what I am not? One time I was speaking with my professor and a handful of other students and, to flow with conversation I suppose (as I think Fe tends to do) I rather mindlessly said "Sorry, I'm not normally this stupid -" and my professor (I love him) boomed back, _"You're not stupid!"_ I should have never said that to begin with. I may be a lot of things. I may be ignorant in many respects, and I am not the most brilliant person. But I am not _stupid,_ and I never have been. Comments like that are just self loathing and deprecative, more for show than anything, and eliminating petty remarks and outward shows of that could help me. 

Not sure if that's what you meant, but

Also, while I've got you here 



fair phantom said:


> you are a truly lovely person. I feel lucky to have met you (even just online)


Thank you for this, Phantom. I feel the same way about you, of course.  
@fair phantom oh dear, accidentally mistook your post to Oswin as to me. Oops. Will respond to the other one now ^^



fair phantom said:


> This is all-or-nothing thinking. To borrow the Buddhist phrase: find the middle way.
> 
> Well 9s are _supposed_ to become more confident and assertive. Integrating the positive traits of 3 is important to overcoming the stagnation of 9's basic fears and desires. :encouragement:
> 
> Have fun watching the kids!! :ball:


Hmm, I think you're right. (I mean, of course you're right, but I think I could come to terms with that.) There is a way to be self assured without being arrogant, humble without being self loathing. And finding that balance is probably not near as difficult as it seems to me in this moment, or that when I first read your post.) 

Ha, it's funny that 9 integrates to 3, actually. I've been identifying with more classic 3 things - wanting to impress, wanting an image of strength, wanting confidence, being driven by ambition - but as a 2 I used to attribute this to spreading my wings.  I guess not. Perhaps I could do some research on 9s and growth in that direction as well. (Do they have Enneagram books for just one type and their growth, I wonder? I imagine 9 would be a type they would have self improvement books about.) 



hoopla said:


> I agree with everyone @alittlebear. Why are you so hard on yourself? You're very intelligent (and no this is not a white lie to make you feel better) and I believe your goals could be put into fruition if you just *believed*. You're also so damn sweet. It's hard to imagine you deliberately hurting someone. So play some affirmation tapes please.


Ah! Last one, then I'll move forward  

I know I'm getting repetitive, but thank you so much as well. Can't tell you how this comment warmed me inside, put aside the following one you make on the next page. It really means a lot to me for you to say that. 

I'll check out the affirmation tapes, although naturally affirmation feels false to me... but I still give it a try. Thank you for that as well.


----------



## Vermillion

Amaterasu said:


> *Can someone explain to me how the fuck this thread has 8400 responses and counting.* Like wtf has been going on that I don't know about? Because I really want to know about it O_O
> 
> 
> alittlebear said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain because I don't know an explanation
Click to expand...

Ok. Who knows what happened here and why?


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Yes, I think your point about Ne is very true. Small talk is often a sensory thing, if you think about it. Maybe they like... invigorating small talk. Does that exist?


I love to talk about things that interest me. I just hate superficial and trivial nonsense (which doesn't seem to be that odd? yet it seems to be socially expected?). And by superficial I don't mean fake I mean on the surface. My dad always wants to know what I _do_ I don't feel like giving people a running narrative of my day.

I suppose some of the conversation here might count as "invigorating small talk" but I guess when I find it invigorating I don't find it small? haha words can be so arbitrary.



> He has pretty rigid standards. Not that they never waver or earn a reevaluation, but his criteria is quite exacting. It's also controversial. I like that.
> 
> I say I dislike controversy... and then I say that I do. I am fickle. Yin yang I suppose.


I'm kind of the same way re: controversy



> Well I think it's because your video was long. And I think it's a bit of a myth that introverts can never contribute at length. It's generally accepted that extroverts like to be alone sometimes... so why can't introverts be talkative when something engages them? I think the lack of gab is attributed to the fact that introverts have a tendency to think before they speak... not that extroverts don't. They do, but they seem more comfortable with quick calls on things. And introverts can mouth vomit too.


Perhaps. I don't know. You'd have to ask the people who thought I came off as extroverted. I am never going to remember everyone. Maybe I should take a survey



> I would love to take the rorscharch test but I've been exposed to the images via pseudo quizzes, so an authentic one wouldn't work.


I've had extensive therapy and I am kind of disappointed that I've never been given a real one.



> Ugh Buddhism is lovely but I know little about it. I ordered books on amazon though. Yay. I probably should have discovered it earlier. I was super into yoga as a child (though ignorant to the Buddhist ties). A friend in 10th grade introduced me to meditation. So lovely. I quit using these methods. I entered severe depression. I suffered from anhedonia (lack of interest). Even books were hard to read. I am going back on ze pills and am trying to retrain pleasure. It's coming back... but I need outside help, even if I *hate* receiving it. I would love to do yoga more regularly... motivation is zapped man. I need a full life.


Let me know if any of the books are particularly enlightening! :fox: 

I'm so sorry you have been dealing with depression. I hate anhedonia. I would prefer most forms of emotional pain to it. Let me know if you need an ear.

I've never been able to do unguided meditation, but yoga is really helpful for me. It helps me to reconnect with myself. If I go too long without it my body doesn't feel like mine? it feels more like some sort of prison? I prefer find "flow" or asana yoga. I recommend Shivea Rea's yoga videos, if you are looking for some.



Oswin said:


> True confidence and true humility are probably the same thing.


This statement._ Yes_.

@alittlebear you are a truly lovely person. I feel lucky to have met you (even just online) :hugs:


----------



## Barakiel

Amaterasu said:


> Ok. Who knows what happened here and why?


Best I can explain is that this evolved into a thread where we just chat about whatever. Sometimes related to functions, sometimes not. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Okay everyone, survey time: what type do you think I am?


I think ENFP.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> @hoopla @fair phantom Thank you for those reassurances. Hopefully I'll get over it. It's still so funny to me because... I'm not typically anxious. I'm more loose and trusting in the future than a lot of obviously neurotypical people I know are. Everything will be okay, don't sweat the small stuff. And I'm also a lot less "socially anxious" than a lot of people I know - I'm the one telling people not to stress out so much and to just go up and talk to them, stop overthinking it DX This is part of what's so hard for me. It's difficult to come up from it when I don't even see how I experience it, apart from people telling me to "stop freaking out" when I'm not freaking out. Gah.
> 
> Still, I do have a constant feeling of uneasiness. I say that the two feelings I know internally are uneasiness and content. Unfortunately content,end is too filleting and rare occurrence for me... I dream of the day when that's no longer the case. Hopefully I'll get there.
> 
> And of course it is always nice to know that change is possible. Of course.
> 
> More specifically to Hoopla - thank you for your further kind words as well. (Again, gah.)
> 
> With grades, though... Eh. I don't struggle with that as much. Admittedly that did slap me in the face this semester took a distinct disliking to me and turned a considerable bit of the class to dislike of me because he went after everything I said and discredited me... but well, you get people who accidentally show their Jerk Face to you. I might have gotten a grade lower than what I wanted in his class, but he was obviously biased against me, and I made it on the Dean's List anyway...
> 
> I use the example of grades as a slight example... What really gets me is meeting the unspoken standard people have for you. Everyone has a different ideal person, and part of my problem is that I'm always trying to match what they most want (even as I don't do that, because I am a frail person who has a hard time not being herself, as much as she would like otherwise). It's always stinging when I find that I am not appealing to this person or that person, especially when you spend so much effort trying to be the best you can for them (such as the aforementioned professor). These unspoken personal standards are the real anxiety-inducing things. Stuff like grades matter to meet someone's unspoken standard in the future and to prepare for things like getting into further schooling, but it isn't as bad as disappointing someone as a person because you don't match them as you desire.
> 
> And as for making things about those who criticize me... I'm oddly incapable of even dreaming about hurting anyone. Revenge fantasies, anything like that... Can't do it. Hmm. But, yeah, it always hurts when someone criticizes me. I used to ignore criticism from those who hated me because, well... If you hate someone, obviously your view of them is clotted and you're being utterly irrational about the person... but now even then I've opened my minds to the people. Not only because they may have landed on the truth of my faults, but also because their hatred of me could represent how people at large see me, and of course I have to do what I can to seem an appealing person to a large group of people. Oh, Fe.


The worst thing you can do is compare your anxiety to others and assume it's therefore insignificant (which I've done). If it impacts your functioning, concern is valid.

I said it before and I'll say it again... you are sweating the small stuff.

My mother is the same in terms of worrying she is acting inappropriately around others. She went as far as to self diagnosis herself with an ASD (I had to try not to laugh; I don't mean to be an asshole but she is fucking not autistic... not a chance. This is why tumblr can go fuck themselves with their "anti self diagnosis is ableist!" shit. Poor argument due to anecdote but I'm not seriously debating rn) and cried, saying "It just makes me wonder how inappropriate I am being!"

Her biggest problems are a) her temper b) she talks way too fucking much. She's been reprimanded for it before. Otherwise she is quite the socialite. I only had 1 friend tell me they disliked her. She has a way with people and her etiquette is better than mine. the other day someone was disinteresting me and I looked at my phone and was told "You know... you strike me as a deep thinker... someone who has to process their thoughts... and sometimes you can look disinterested due to lack of eye contact".

I got super pissed and snapped at her. I know what eye contact is and why it is necessary. I'm not a fucking idiot. People are too quick to make assumptions. She cried. I was such an asshole. I apologized. Not a fun day. 

I'm better now but I can still be... awkward.... as hell. Mainly when intimidated. Which... is often. I was so awkward as a child I was unaware of personal space. Finally as I grew it all clicked and made sense. I learned how to people read and am actually quite good at it... not face blind, but I may have been at a point. It's putting skills into practice that is sometimes taxing, but that doesn't mean I misinterpret them. As someone who has dealt with the awkward label my whole life I am fuming when people whine about social skills despite being gregarious. 

Not saying that is you, and I don't think you match my mother's extent, but I get the feeling you aren't bad at social interaction at all, and the only blunder is shyness and perhaps a bit of passivity? What I try to do is just wing interaction... if it fails Si files "you don't do that socially" onto a checklist and remember not to be a tard next time. Maybe try that?

I got irrational sorry.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I think ENFP.


Well, since some people have a differing opinion on Fi and Ti for her, @fair phantom, what's your opinion? :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Is the standard an objective formula? Or is based on the way life is supposed to be, through your angle?


Mm...I don't know. Is it Si? Like...the standards are wrong because they don't reflect reality. Which is...I guess we have to consider if it is a subjective reality, or an objective reality (standard) I have in mind. Which is really difficult to judge. That's the way I think things should be -- and I think if things were that way, things would be better? Ugh, I don't know. Is it Si? Could it be more of an Enneagram 1 thing? (I mean...it's similar I think)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

One more thing before I go to bed. Addressing Si. 

Do you remember when I switched to ISFJ? I really thought I was one. I felt assured in the type. ISFJs are lovely. I did desire to be one. I tried to find myself in the type. 

But I could not. No description of Si fit me. Not Socionics. Not Classic MBTI-based descriptions. Nothing in the SJ/ISFJ forums, not even the one that ISFJs commented on saying "oh, now I understand Si!" And certainly not the Jung description. It's really... not me, and certainly not my dominant function. 

I don't feel like going through the typing process again. As I've said, I use Ni/Se. Whether or not it's apparent to a few people doesn't change the fact that it operates within me. 

Please don't think I'm trying to be arrogant about this... Of course I fear that. It's what's kept me questioning my type mostly. I still may come to realize that I am not Ni/Se, or question it further... but at this point, I am very assured of the type, and not open to external questioning. It's me. I'm sick of trying to prove that, but trust my growing sense of self. I am an ENFJ 9, which is of course an odd combination and which I would argue @Barakiel makes me _Si-seeming_ along with the two anxiety disorders, but it's how I understand myself at this time. 

I am off to sleep now (hopefully), but the new questions in type were tugging at me. I don't like the tugging. I don't know how to prove I have Ni - I cannot - but I am going to do what you actually suggested to me a while ago @hoopla when you were absolutely tell outwardly convinced I used Introverted Intuition and was an ENFJ and just embrace myself and my current understanding of myself for now ^^


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> Mm...I don't know. Is it Si? Like...the standards are wrong because they don't reflect reality. Which is...I guess we have to consider if it is a subjective reality, or an objective reality (standard) I have in mind. Which is really difficult to judge. That's the way I think things should be -- and I think if things were that way, things would be better? Ugh, I don't know. Is it Si? Could it be more of an Enneagram 1 thing? (I mean...it's similar I think)


So far sounds like perceiving. 

Where do the standards come from? Would you say they are flexible based on the fluid change and flexibility of reality and those who are unaware of this and view life as black and white, are wrong? Or would you say reality is wrong because it changes too much... reality itself is too quick to go out for the shiny ideology despite an exact model that should be implemented, and breaking that is causing the unnecessary fuss?


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Okay everyone, survey time: what type do you think I am?


Have you looked into socionics? You could be an ENFP - Fi subtype. Or an INFP -Ne subtype. 

I still think ENFP in MBTI. You seem Pe'ish to me. They are the notorious introverted-extroverts.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> One more thing before I go to bed. Addressing Si.
> 
> Do you remember when I switched to ISFJ? I really thought I was one. I felt assured in the type. ISFJs are lovely. I did desire to be one. I tried to find myself in the type.
> 
> But I could not. No description of Si fit me. Not Socionics. Not Classic MBTI-based descriptions. Nothing in the SJ/ISFJ forums, not even the one that ISFJs commented on saying "oh, now I understand Si!" And certainly not the Jung description. It's really... not me, and certainly not my dominant function.
> 
> I don't feel like going through the typing process again. As I've said, I use Ni/Se. Whether or not it's apparent to a few people doesn't change the fact that it operates within me.
> 
> Please don't think I'm trying to be arrogant about this... Of course I fear that. It's what's kept me questioning my type mostly. I still may come to realize that I am not Ni/Se, or question it further... but at this point, I am very assured of the type, and not open to external questioning. It's me. I'm sick of trying to prove that, but trust my growing sense of self. I am an ENFJ 9, which is of course an odd combination and which I would argue @Barakiel makes me _Si-seeming_ along with the two anxiety disorders, but it's how I understand myself at this time.
> 
> I am off to sleep now (hopefully), but the new questions in type were tugging at me. I don't like the tugging. I don't know how to prove I have Ni - I cannot - but I am going to do what you actually suggested to me a while ago @hoopla when you were absolutely tell outwardly convinced I used Introverted Intuition and was an ENFJ and just embrace myself and my current understanding of myself for now ^^


Fair enough, but you're not really being arrogant at all, I don't know where your hypersensitivity regarding arrogance is coming from. :dry: Actually, the reason I thought that you might be Si is that 9 naturally seems like Ni to me, so it may be substituting for that in the eyes of the people who judge you. It happened to me with Ne, everyone around me thought I was Ne, but a while back I realized, wait, I'm really not, I just act like I am. :laughing: Then again, the entire argument I stated was a giant strawman, so there you go. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

@alittlebear I think I relate to your struggles with professors. Like...in 9th grade, I took a Beginning French class...I think it was a thing where I needed to get the formal 'you took this class' thing but I knew everything on the syllabus...and I was trying to be really involved in the class and ask the teacher questions that I didn't know the answer to...until I realized that the teacher was finding me to be a know-it-all, so then I started pretending I didn't know _anything_ and I like...would answer questions in a really questioning manner, like I was unsure of myself, I think I even purposefully got things wrong on homework assignments...which just made her hate me even more, for obvious reasons, but like...it stuck) I don't know, in high school a lot I'd get really excited about my favorite topics in lit classes or whatever, and be trying to have discussions, and then I'd be realizing that the teacher was thinking I was trying to show off, which was...not what I wanted, so I gradually shifted into pretending I didn't know anything.

Actually...no, that happened in college too. Maybe it's kinda a Fe thing?

But the really strong difference between you and me is that you are persistent. Like...I _never_ went in to see my teachers or professors. I just...would realize that they hated me (which honestly..._all_ my teachers hated me) and I would just feel so uncomfortable and like I didn't belong in the class, which led to just sorta dropping out of the class. I really admire people who are able to keep an acquaintanceship active, the way you describe doing. I can't, unless I'm forced to. Maybe that's me being not-Fe? I don't even know. But you seem to have a fairly decent tool-kit of social skills)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> How I help myself space out is by running, very hard to focus on how things can go wrong when your legs are burning and your heart beating out of your chest. Though I imagine that's a very Se-Te way of thinking. :laughing::


Superficially sounds like Se but...

I also relate. Exercise actually strengthens T-cells, releases opioid receptors, and triggers the fight aspect of fight/flight response, which actually does increase our heart rates, so that's universal. Exercise is actually amazing.

I find exercise provides energy (for reasons above), increases my concentration, I enjoy the accomplishment aspect (beating a score, climbing that mountain; I am talking solo accomplishment tho because team sports aren't my jam), and well... you feel *alive*. Awakened and anew. And you get in the zone. I don't like running though. Walks are nice not for exercise aspects, but the thoughts they provoke. Exercise also handles anger constructively.  I mostly prefer relaxation to deal with stress though.

Yeah our reasoning sounds different.



Barakiel said:


> Well, I did manage to hide it pretty damn well. :wink::


And I saw right through it 



Barakiel said:


> Oh, you're a hippie? Well, as long as I don't invite you to a woodcutting contest, I imagine we'd get on great. :laughing::


I wouldn't hurt you. Hippies are pacifists remember? You'd hurt me or I'd hurt myself because clumsy.



Barakiel said:


> Absolutely no idea who that is. :dry::







Basically she's a parody of every unflattering hipster activist stereotype. She's not exactly me no... but I champion for most of her causes and I was one of those "save the rainforest" types and I became a polluting conformist because people ragged on me so terribly. I'm dabbling in those traits again. I cared too much about what others thought of me growing up. I should of stuck to my environmentalist club I created in grade 4 rather than boycotting because people only cared about the popsicle shtick I thought up to get people to join and left when it was a once a year thing... not liked I'd of solved global warming but I imagine the invisible good I may have caused as well as people I could have recruited... I wish I didn't care what ppl though cry.

You need to watch community btw.



Barakiel said:


> Haha, is this something I'm never gonna live down? :dry: Good to know the Fi-Te and Se-Ni axises... or axii, are both settled, now all that's left is the order. :laughing: I know that @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=229794" target="_blank">shinynotshiny</a></i></span> wants to know why you think Si for him, and I am kind of curious myself, but I digress. Actually, I think it's the combination of Ti and Ne, as Ne is really obstinate in forming conclusions, always another piece of information or analysis.


Yes, exactly. I am confused of the order. I want to read your new type me thread now (people thought INFJ? Really? INTJ makes more sense) because all I know is you're a gamma (I mean functions in general; I don't care for socionics) and I want to get to the bottom of this.

I thought @shinynotshiny was female? Really doesn't matter anyway.

I asked questions and hopefully will receive answers but... don't expect any answers from me. Why is Si/Ni hard for me to determine?

Actually I think your Ne definition is more Ti. I believed the Ne=indecisive myth too until I realized....

Ne's primary strength is picking up on concepts, so it goes with, it plays with it, then moves on to next with rapid speed... this is why Ne looks flighty. Not indecision. 

I think indecision is a low order Ne thing. Also maybe Ji in general but I am unsure of that (probably though.... any thoughts? especially @Greyhart). 

@alittlebear- Well you're Fe at least. I think you use Ne but I am open to Ni. Is that sea shell thing Si or Ni? It doesn't matter. Use typology to discover yourself; not as a "what do people think I am" contest (which is hard when you crave accuracy).

Copying @fair phantom's survey, what do you guys think?

Sometimes I wonder if I'm another pseudo introvert and am really an Fe dom. :ssad:


----------



## Max

I have just done an all-nighter and learned a song in Portuguese. Who says Se-Doms can't be productive?  

Nah, but really, all this excess Se energy drives me mental sometimes. I have to find a way to burn it off without it eating into my sleeping time and it keeping me up all night.

Any plans, guys? I have tried weightlifting, watching T.V, being active etc. Nothing seems to be working.
@hoopla @Oswin @Barakiel @alittlebear 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


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## Deadly Decorum

Oh I am the opposite. I wish I had more energy... if anything I am this most of the time:






Hell at concerts I take everything in silently so it can transcend through my being and the entire atmosphere can merge as one within my soul... I used to worry I was too boring. 

Exercise helps with sleep but too close to bed can trigger insomnia.

Writing helps. Meditation helps. Also Bob Ross. Puts me to sleep in seconds.

...That increases relaxation rather than burning energy. Ask an Se dom.


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I have just done an all-nighter and learned a song in Portuguese. Who says Se-Doms can't be productive?
> 
> Nah, but really, all this excess Se energy drives me mental sometimes. I have to find a way to burn it off without it eating into my sleeping time and it keeping me up all night.
> 
> Any plans, guys? I have tried weightlifting, watching T.V, being active etc. Nothing seems to be working.
> @hoopla @Oswin @Barakiel @alittlebear
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


I have the same thing. Sometimes I feel so restless I want to stab myself in the stomach so something's happening.
Try...singing in Portuguese)


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> So far sounds like perceiving.
> 
> Where do the standards come from? Would you say they are flexible based on the fluid change and flexibility of reality and those who are unaware of this and view life as black and white, are wrong? Or would you say reality is wrong because it changes too much... reality itself is too quick to go out for the shiny ideology despite an exact model that should be implemented, and breaking that is causing the unnecessary fuss?


Sorry I didn't respond right away, had to think (and work) I'm still not exactly sure of my answer but here's what I've got:
Do the standards have to come from somewhere? I'm not sure that they do . . . I think they're part of the natural law, really. Like, I know I've seen movies or read books where things were a certain way and I thought, "Aha! Now _that's_ how things should be!" but I don't think I got them from the books, I think it's more like...how would humans behave if they were in their ideal state? Not in an artificial society, or a poverty or plague-stricken society...which when I am imagining it looks like a village. I mean, I suppose there's a 'natural human society' village in my brain, but I don't know where it comes from, I suppose all humans probably have a variation of that, it's just inborn. 

If there's an ideal world, where things are as they ought to be (which there is) why does reality differ from that? I don't know. Hundreds of reasons. I don't know if we can blame the people, people are just being swept along with time...though some are probably more to blame than others...but I suppose it's just a natural attribute of reality, that it is not ideal.
I also want to blame technology and the Internet/media for some of the specific problems, but I will refrain from doing so)
My gut reaction though is: reality is wrong. We should be trying to tear down the curtain, or at least trying to imitate how life is on the other side of the curtain.


----------



## Dangerose

Also, Ny-Quill or Zzz-Quill.


----------



## Dangerose

Could I have a vote on my type, too, by the way?


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Oh I am the opposite. I wish I had more energy... if anything I am this most of the time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell at concerts I take everything in silently so it can transcend through my being and the entire atmosphere can merge as one within my soul... I used to worry I was too boring.
> 
> Exercise helps with sleep but too close to bed can trigger insomnia.
> 
> Writing helps. Meditation helps. Also Bob Ross. Puts me to sleep in seconds.
> 
> ...That increases relaxation rather than burning energy. Ask an Se dom.


This makes me feel so...on edge. Seriously, meditation, 'relaxing'...just makes me so tense. Even watching other people relax puts me on edge. I start going all, "Come on! You're alive! You can sleep when you're dead! Be alive! Don't be a fish!" (mostly just to myself but occasionally I will give pep talks :/
I don't know if this says anything about cognitive functions but it's one of the things that makes me think I'm not an introvert :/

edit: I love the Alice in Wonderland movie though))


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> So far sounds like perceiving.
> 
> Where do the standards come from? Would you say they are flexible based on the fluid change and flexibility of reality and those who are unaware of this and view life as black and white, are wrong? Or would you say reality is wrong because it changes too much... reality itself is too quick to go out for the shiny ideology despite an exact model that should be implemented, and breaking that is causing the unnecessary fuss?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I didn't respond right away, had to think (and work) I'm still not exactly sure of my answer but here's what I've got:
> Do the standards have to come from somewhere? I'm not sure that they do . . . I think they're part of the natural law, really. Like, I know I've seen movies or read books where things were a certain way and I thought, "Aha! Now _that's_ how things should be!" but I don't think I got them from the books, I think it's more like...how would humans behave if they were in their ideal state? Not in an artificial society, or a poverty or plague-stricken society...which when I am imagining it looks like a village. I mean, I suppose there's a 'natural human society' village in my brain, but I don't know where it comes from, I suppose all humans probably have a variation of that, it's just inborn.
> 
> If there's an ideal world, where things are as they ought to be (which there is) why does reality differ from that? I don't know. Hundreds of reasons. I don't know if we can blame the people, people are just being swept along with time...though some are probably more to blame than others...but I suppose it's just a natural attribute of reality, that it is not ideal.
> I also want to blame technology and the Internet/media for some of the specific problems, but I will refrain from doing so)
> My gut reaction though is: reality is wrong. We should be trying to tear down the curtain, or at least trying to imitate how life is on the other side of the curtain.
Click to expand...

Yes! ^

And Se/Ni. (Sorry... still can't figure out your judging axis).


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> Sorry I didn't respond right away, had to think (and work) I'm still not exactly sure of my answer but here's what I've got:
> Do the standards have to come from somewhere? I'm not sure that they do . . . I think they're part of the natural law, really. Like, I know I've seen movies or read books where things were a certain way and I thought, "Aha! Now _that's_ how things should be!" but I don't think I got them from the books, I think it's more like...how would humans behave if they were in their ideal state? Not in an artificial society, or a poverty or plague-stricken society...which when I am imagining it looks like a village. I mean, I suppose there's a 'natural human society' village in my brain, but I don't know where it comes from, I suppose all humans probably have a variation of that, it's just inborn.
> 
> If there's an ideal world, where things are as they ought to be (which there is) why does reality differ from that? I don't know. Hundreds of reasons. I don't know if we can blame the people, people are just being swept along with time...though some are probably more to blame than others...but I suppose it's just a natural attribute of reality, that it is not ideal.
> I also want to blame technology and the Internet/media for some of the specific problems, but I will refrain from doing so)
> My gut reaction though is: reality is wrong. We should be trying to tear down the curtain, or at least trying to imitate how life is on the other side of the curtain.


This is Pi. Internalized perception that it not effected by the general consensus. Subjective. 

How do we tear down the curtain? What's on the other side? 

Hmm... I would argue life is evolving and changing too much for there to be an intrinsic way to adapt. Our developments in science for instance, was a change against any sort of standard that were necessary for development. We wouldn't survive if we didn't adapt to change.

I don't like sleep because it limits everything we could be doing... I am aware it's necessary for human functioning, but it feels like a waste of time. When I say energy I mean... mental energy. Not physical... not tai chi... sometimes I can't sit still sure, but I'm subdued, I don't run around much or need to do much of anything to be happy. I don't know how to explain it. I guess I gain my energy from quieter, stagnant or relaxing things. When I'm stressed, I need a bath, not a shower. I seem to crave mental clarity more than anything.


----------



## Immolate

I'm back and mostly awake :topsy_turvy:

First of all...

Thank you so much for responding, @_hoopla_! You had no obligation whatsoever, and I'm sorry I've been the pestering type. I have your response open in another tab and I'm doing my best to catch up with your responses overall. I really do enjoy your posts and point of view. 

I agree dreams don't reflect our functions but speak to a part of our subconscious. I've never cared for dream analysis, especially because dreams are so subjective (and, in the average purpose, serve no other purpose than to organize the day's thoughts or perceptions) but some dreams are worth picking apart. Dreams that recur or have specific themes, or dreams that capture past experiences, can tell us something about our state of mind. I still dream about something that happened almost ten years ago, for example. I think people who have experienced something they feel is significant or traumatic can relate to this.

Symbols are always tricky in dreams, especially when they're tied to so-called dream analysis. I think people have common fears, and due to the way society presents certain fears and anxieties, we dream about them in similar ways. Falling teeth, running, and other themes are probably common for this reason.

Barring those "universal" symbols, I do have themes and images that recur in my dreams. For the past year or so, I've been having these kind of... post-apocalyptic dreams where survival is the only goal. I'm always part of a group undergoing trials to prove themselves, and there's always an unspoken and hidden "they." They're watching us. They're judging us. They placed us here. What I find interesting is that there's always some variation of "holding on" in these dreams, sometimes a literal holding on. I thought about it a while back, and the only way I can describe it is by comparing it to a jungle gym suspended in space :drunk:

I actually searched for images of jungle gyms a while back and came across this one:










It's some sort of project in a German church. It doesn't look like anything I've dreamt with, but it has the message. Does this strike you as Si, perhaps? Dreams are dreams, but my mind has somehow associated these completely unrelated things :ghost:

Moving on from that, "It's the belief that logic negates emotion (total bullshit)." This is probably why I have such a soft spot for Spock,... but I'll stay on topic, haha.

I've often thought about the body and what it represents, not only for myself but for other people. Deeply spiritual people who believe in a soul or intangible self usually compare the body to a prison. It's the physical aspect of ourselves that keeps us grounded to a lower plane of existence. I resonate with this belief about the body, but only to a degree. I agree there's a separation of self and body, but one can't exist without the other. In this case, the self is the mind and it's born from our physicality, most literally, our squishy brain :very_drunk:

I find it limiting, and that's what the body represents to me: a limitation, even a contradiction. I want to exist apart from my body, but my body is the origin of the self. Oh dear. As I've mentioned before in the thread, specifically when talking to @_angelcat_, this is why I have a fascination with genres like cyberpunk. I think @_Greyhart_ described it as uploading the mind to the internet :eagerness:

I don't think of it in those specific terms, but the general idea is there.

I think we'll have to reevaluate life and the meaning of personhood as science and technology continues to progress. Take this, for example. What does it tell us about ourselves? Are we entirely our flesh? Things like that.

I've rambled on half-asleep, my eyes are literally burning right now lol, so I don't know if this makes any sense. I'll probably come back in the morning and clarify anything that needs clarification. Also, and on an unrelated note, I found a table that kinda sorta uses the same idea as my cloud, oh my.

I'm going to post now without going over what I wrote :tranquillity:


[Edit] @alittlebear you're so sweet and deserve to feel good about yourself! What is this I keep reading? I missed a lot during that nap. I think our new goal is to help foster confidence.


----------



## Greyhart

Blue Flare said:


> Yeah, is damn long but I find it rather complete. I also *posted type 7's* months ago and reading it was like being hit by a ton of bricks.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Greyhart said:


>


http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-forum-enthusiast/403954-sandra-maitris-chapter-about-type-7-a.html there it's the thread, have fun checking the description xD


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> There's such an emphasis on productivity and being able to measure employees' worth by objective means, but they forget that at the end of the day, what matters most is customers' individual, subjective experience, and that often they won't talk about it to the company. I seem to do best with customers who are open-minded and not in a hurry. Unfortunately I can't get them all the time. :stomp:
> 
> 
> Well the language barrier is one big obstacle... :tongues: But as part of my degree I have to do some work placement, and some of the older students have said that they completely changed directions after experiencing how it actually was to work on their specialisation. I'm pretty much got it narrowed down to the least worst now, so I'm going to be kinda screwed if I end up hating this one, but I'll see how it goes I guess.
> 
> I've worked in enough different places to know that I prefer smaller companies. I think there are a lot of different start-ups popping up in my city but I wonder if the stress of "will we make enough money to keep going?" would outweigh the excitement of being part of something new.
> 
> 
> I haven't heard of it but it sounds really good!
> 
> 
> Ah that sounds lovely still! I think my old classmate is living in or near Tokyo, and in school we had a lot of exchange groups from Osaka, so I'd like to see there as well. I'm sure Kyoto would be lovely with all the history. I'd like to go out to the countryside too, but maybe I'd need better Japanese for that...
> 
> 
> Me too! I was tossing up between that and French, but I ended up thinking French might be a bit better because it's more global?
> 
> I'm actually studying at a polytechnic, so it's part of my degree. Officially it's a Bachelor of Business Administration but there are language and communications components as well, which make it a bit more interesting. I didn't really have a lot of choice because there aren't as many English-language undergraduate programmes here, but I think it'll be useful in getting a better job.
> 
> 
> Wow! I don't have the self-control to teach myself a language properly by myself... I'm a dabbler. But yeah I'd definitely look for what has the most resources. And maybe see who speaks what languages around here... maybe you can PM or skype with a member who speaks the language you're trying to learn?
> 
> 
> It is and it isn't. It's easy after Japanese. enguin: I like that it's written exactly how it's pronounced, so I never have to guess like with English or French. But it has 6 million different case ending so that's a bit of a pain. Finns are pretty forgiving though; they appreciate that I even put in the effort as a native English speaker.
> 
> Helsinki is lovely in summer. Not so nice in the winter, too much slush and not enough proper snow. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to do winter, you have to do it properly.


Oh, I hope your work placement goes well! :ghost: Work placements are one of the best things about certain courses (that and travelling abroad). Yes, smaller companies are much, much nicer. I really don't like working in huge places where communication is difficult. I'm not great at communication in the workplace as it is, so I don't want any more stress about it than necessary. If you have to work in retail/with customers, I recommend finding a sort of small, quiet place (like a bookshop?), as most of the customers are less...angry?

I never made it to Tokyo sadly, but my friends over there said it was great. Osaka also looked very nice! I'm kind of planning to go back at some point with my sister, because she never got to visit and really wants to go there. I do think if you're going to the countryside it can really help to have conversational Japanese (asking for directions, prices etc.) as not many people speak English.

It would be great to practice with someone :ghost: I know three people who speak other languages and two of them are often out of contact, while the third isn't really interested in using her French. No one I know speaks Japanese, which makes it difficult to practice...

Oh, I'm not too bad with different forms, so that might be a good one for me! I mostly find pronunciation (and kanji) difficult, plus remembering all the vocab. I'll try to visit Helsinki in summer at some point then! I can't stand slushy snow - that's all we get in Southern England if we get any at all...





Greyhart said:


> MBTI as Flowers - Funky MBTI in Fiction
> I'm moderately peeved that ENFP "Sincerity" but ENTP "Distrust". Is it like ENTP's distrust or distrust in ENTP? Lavender is freaking great, though.


Lavender is a great plant. I'm a bit disappointed by how fluffy the INFP one is... (Has a nice meaning though.)





shinynotshiny said:


> So hoopla got me thinking about my enneagram type and I was wondering if anyone thought I was something other than a 5. Requesting assistance! @_fair phantom_, @_Living dead_, @_laurie17_ (I don't remember who else)


I'd say tritype is probably 5w6-1w9-3w4? Or maybe switch out 1w9 for 8w9 - the 3w4 might give the vague impression of 1ish perfectionism, but it's based around a different motivation.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> I'd say tritype is probably 5w6-1w9-3w4? Or maybe switch out 1w9 for 8w9 - the 3w4 might give the vague impression of 1ish perfectionism, but it's based around a different motivation.


From the little I know, I'm much too soft to be an 8, but 8w9 softens it a bit?

I've never considered type 3, and 1w9 is something I've thought about in place of 1w2.

Still need to finish reading the type 1 description


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@shinynotshiny here's type 5 description for contrast purposes:


* *





Those of this ennea-type tend to be very private people who value their solitude and often resent
intrusions. Fives tend to feel unseen and isolated from others, very much alone and separate, which
does not seem to bother them much. Afraid of engulfment, they often seem to hide from life and seal
themselves off, maintaining their own private inner world. While most of the time seeming to observe
rather than actively participate in what is going on around them, they can at times be quite loquacious,
although they nonetheless convey the sense that they are living in their own little world.
Valuing self-sufficiency and their own autonomy, they don’t want to feel obligated to others to
fulfill expectations and demands, and would rather keep to themselves. They therefore tend to be
retentive and stingy with themselves and their resources, thus the name of this type, Ego-Stinginess.
Driven by an inner sense of scarcity and emptiness, they behave as though afraid that the little they
have might be taken from them and so needs to be safeguarded. Afraid that nothing will be
forthcoming from the outside, they act as though they don’t want anything and furthermore that they
don’t care, even convincing themselves that this is how they really feel, and so they limit expression
of their wishes and their desires.
Many Fives seem emotionless, dry, and lacking in vitality. Although they may experience intense
emotions and have very active and penetrating minds, they show very little of this inner world to
others. Energetically they may seem wispy and sometimes even fragile, as if not fully inhabiting their
bodies. It is as though they are a little removed, withholding themselves from fully entering into
things. They are deeply sensitive, sometimes seeming to be all nerve endings, easily shaken and
startled, with thin and delicate skins. They use their minds to scout, relying on their knowledge of the
territory in front of them to make entering into it safe. Many Fives, however, live entirely in their
minds, substituting mental formulations for actual experience.
Behind these personality traits lies the loss of the Holy Idea associated with Point Five. To
understand it, we need to recap our understanding of that of Point Eight. In the previous chapter we
discussed how Holy Truth, the Holy Idea of Point Eight, is the perception that the whole cosmos is one
indivisible thing and that all of its dimensions are coemergent and inseparable from each other. This
means that the entire universe, from physical manifestation to the Absolute, is a oneness, and so
matter and Spirit are part and parcel of each other. From this angle, we saw that all dualities are
illusory: the Divine and the mundane, good and evil, ego and Essence, and ourselves and God. They
are simply different parts of the one fabric of reality. The Holy Idea of Point Five, which has two
names, Holy Omniscience and Holy Transparency, shifts the focus from viewing this whole as a
totality to viewing it from within its various manifestations. In other words, rather than viewing
reality as one thing, from this vantage point the emphasis is on the interconnectedness of all of the
parts of the cosmos and on some of the implications of this interpenetration. In a sense, we can think
of Holy Truth as focusing on the wholeness of reality, and of Holy Omniscience and Holy
Transparency as focusing on its constituent parts.
Almaas uses the terms unity and oneness to differentiate these two perceptions. Unity refers to
perceiving the wholeness of reality, and is the perspective of Holy Truth. Oneness refers to perceiving
that all of the separate manifestations in reality make up one thing, and is the perspective of Holy
Omniscience and Holy Transparency. He uses the analogy of the body to make this clearer: looking at
the body from the outside and seeing it as one thing would be analogous to Holy Truth, while looking
at it from the inside and seeing all of the separate cells, organs, and systems that make it up would be
analogous to Holy Omniscience and Holy Transparency. Or, returning to our analogy, we could say
that Holy Truth is equivalent to perceiving an ocean as a whole body of water, while Holy
Omniscience is equivalent to perceiving the various waves and currents that taken together comprise
it.
Exploring the Holy Idea of Point Five in more detail, we will concentrate first on Holy
Transparency since it is a little easier to grasp than Holy Omniscience. Holy Transparency refers to
the human experience of being one individual part of the whole of reality. One of the central beliefs of
the personality, no matter what our ennea-type happens to be, is that we are each ultimately separate
from every other person. When we see reality objectively from the angle of Holy Transparency, we
see that this is an illusion and not ultimate truth. Although our bodies are physically separate, this
separateness is not fundamental to our nature. And while each of us is a distinct individual with a
unique appearance, temperament, and history, and possessing different qualities than anyone else,
each of us is still part of the larger body of humanity and in turn of the cosmos. We are all like the
various cells in the body, each having a particular makeup and function and yet indisputably
interconnected with one another and part of the same organism.
Beyond our interconnection as members of humanity, as individual souls we are each an expression
and manifestation of Being, linked by our very nature with the rest of the universe. Again, just like the
individual cells that make up our bodies, the dividing walls between each of us are porous and
transparent and not inherently defining or confining. From the enlightened perspective of Holy
Transparency, we know ourselves as individual manifestations or differentiations of the oneness of
reality, composing it and inseparable from it. We perceive ourselves, then, to be parts of a greater
Whole, and we also see here that disconnection from the rest of humanity and the rest of the cosmos is
impossible.
Turning to Holy Omniscience, we might begin to penetrate its meaning by asking ourselves why the
word omniscience is used in connection with this perception of oneness, since omniscience means the
state of being all-knowing or of having complete understanding. There are a number of ways to
understand the use of this term. Perhaps the simplest has to do with what spiritual development is all
about: it is the process of a human being becoming progressively more conscious of and in touch with
her inner nature. She literally knows more and more about who and what she is, and when this
knowledge is total, she has full realization of herself as an individual expression of Being. This is
what is referred to in the various traditions as total enlightenment—complete understanding of oneself
and of one’s nature. Because each of us is an inseparable manifestation of the Whole, an individual
soul who partakes of the nature of all souls and of all of the cosmos, knowing oneself fully implies
knowing the Whole fully as well. So Holy Omniscience is the perspective of the enlightened human
soul: she fully knows herself and, through this knowing, fully knows the Whole of which she is a part.
Perhaps the deepest and most difficult understanding of Holy Omniscience to grasp is that each of
us is a differentiation of the Universal Mind. We discussed in an earlier chapter how the universe is an
alive intelligence. Looking at reality in this way, each of us is a thought expressed by that Intelligence.
Or, putting it a little differently, each entity in the universe is like a separate thought in God’s Mind.
Each of us is an expression of God or the Absolute, then, the inner nature of the universe manifesting
on its outer surface.
This might raise the question of why the Absolute expresses each of these “thoughts” that we are,
which is the same question as why manifestation occurs in the first place and what is the point of
human life. Many spiritual traditions say that the function of our existence is so that the Absolute can
know Itself, and this is perhaps the most plausible answer to that question. As each individual soul,
each expression of the Absolute, becomes conscious and aware of her True Nature, the Absolute
knows Itself. So each of us is not only a differentiation of the Absolute but also a way in which It
knows Itself.
Holy Omniscience, then, tells us something about the function of human existence: so that God can
know Himself; about the place of humanity in the cosmos: as transparent windows of the Absolute;
and about the nature of the Path: progressive understanding of one’s nature. Holy Transparency tells
us that as we experience ourselves as transparent windows of Being, we know ourselves to be
inseparable from the rest of creation.
Simultaneous with the loss of contact with her depths, a Five also loses these perspectives on
reality. So not only does she lose her sense of connection with Being but she also loses a sense of
interconnectedness with others and with the rest of reality. As she inevitably identifies with her body
in infancy, its boundaries become determinate to her, bounding and disconnecting her. She develops
the conviction that she is separate from - everyone and everything else, although obviously at this
early age this conviction is only a dimly felt sense that only later becomes conceptual. Separateness as
fundamental replaces interconnectedness, and as a result, she grows up without a sense of true place or
function in human society and, beyond that, in the universe.
This sense of being fundamentally separate is common to all ego structures, no matter which type.
It is one of the deepest beliefs of the personality and hence to the majority of humanity, and for most
of us it feels like an indisputable sense of how things actually are. It is only when we have experiences
that move us past the boundaries of our egoic consciousness that we experience ourselves as one with
and part of all of existence.
Sealed off from others, contained within the limits of her body, the Five experiences a profound
sense of isolation. She grows up feeling estranged from others, living in her own little bubble, and
rarely feeling fully part of her family or community. Filtered through the loss of the sense of
connectedness signified by Holy Omniscience and Holy Transparency, her experience of her primary
relationship to another—her mother—is of not being fully bonded with her. A Five’s memory of their
early relationship is often tinged with the sense of not being fully related to, deeply loved, wanted, or
fully nourished, a sense of having futilely sucked at a dry tit. A sense of deprivation, of contact or
sustenance having been withheld, is left indelibly in her soul. Seemingly paradoxically, she also often
has the sense of her mother being invasive, intrusive, manipulative, engulfing, and devouring, not
respecting her boundaries or her space. While this may sound like the opposite of a withholding
mother, the common thread is the experience of mother not relating to, connecting with, and being
attuned to her reality. Rather, mother seems wrapped up in herself and so not really perceiving the
Five or meeting her needs.
She ends up feeling unseen, unappreciated, and not understood, and this becomes part of her
ongoing sense of self. So rather than experiencing herself as someone whose needs are apparent and
whose inner process is penetrable by another’s understanding as in Holy Transparency, she feels
invisible. Not only do her needs and desires feel to her unseen by others but her inner world also feels
to her ungraspable by them. Her inner workings do not seem to her like something others would
understand, empathize with, and have compassion for. She experiences herself as different, not like
other people, lacking shared human commonalities. The gulf between herself and others feels
unbridgeable, and her boundaries feel impenetrable.
This sense of invisibility and isolation is both her suffering and her attempt to defend against it. In
response to her mother’s distance from her and mother’s unattuned intrusions, she withdraws from her
mother in order not to experience the devastating pain of feeling neglected. It is also an attempt to
preserve herself, to seal off and hold on to a sense of self in the face of experiencing herself as unseen.
This fear of loss of self arises because her not fully differentiated consciousness cannot distinguish
clearly between mother and herself, and so if mother doesn’t see her, she begins to lose a sense of her
own substantiality. The solution her soul arrives at, then, is to separate and isolate herself to survive.
Her soul is frozen in the infant state beyond tears and rage when needs go unmet and quiet
resignation and apathy take over. In her movement away, she mimics her experience of her mother’s
remoteness from her, and by extension the remoteness of Being, and this withdrawal becomes her
dominant strategy in life. Mother becomes all others and life itself, and she pulls back physically,
emotionally, and energetically from all of the forms mother takes in her psyche.
In a word, she hides from life, and so on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11, we find
self-hiding at Point Five, indicating that she conceals herself from others and ultimately hides from
herself as well. She becomes self-enclosed and prefers to remain on the periphery of things, whether
they be social gatherings, intimate relationships, or any other kind of engagement with others. She
withdraws and tends to be difficult to reach on all levels, from simply being elusive regarding her
whereabouts or not answering her phone for instance, to evasiveness about what is going on with her
internally. She wants control over the amount and quality of interaction she has, and guards her
privacy carefully. We see this exemplified in the little we know about the personal lives of Fives who
become famous, as, for example, Bob Dylan and Georgia O’Keeffe. Dylan’s sense of self-enclosure is
evident as he refrains from making eye contact with his audience during concerts, and O’Keeffe’s in
the isolated life she led in the New Mexican desert.
Part of a Five’s hiding is her dissembling—primarily concealing her inner thoughts, feelings, and
wishes under a cloak of indifference. Because of this, dissimulation—trying to appear not as one is—
is at Point Five on the Enneagram of Lies, as we see on Diagram 12. For instance, if a Five feels any
danger of her response to a question being conflictual, it will be difficult to get a straight answer out
of her. Rather than expressing herself and risking a challenge for which she feels unprepared or taking
the chance of ruffling someone else’s feathers, she hides what is going on with her. In arguments, she
will readily say that she agrees with the other person, and later it becomes clear that she still holds an
entirely divergent opinion. She accommodates, appearing to go along with what the other wishes,
while quietly going about exactly what she secretly wanted to do in the first place. At other times, she
may accommodate to the extent that she loses track of her own direction. While she secretly longs to
be seen, appreciated, cared about, and loved, she is afraid to take the initiative and instead feigns
indifference and waits passively to be noticed.
A Five’s dissembling keeps her from making waves and helps her avoid confrontations, but it also
reinforces her disconnection from others. Just as she loses a sense of connection to others, she also
loses a sense of connection with life itself both externally and internally. She feels separate from the
rest of reality, not part of its dynamism. Her own aliveness and vitality seem ephemeral and tenuous,
and her energy, stamina, and vigor feel limited, and she may even experience herself as unreal,
ghostlike. She feels small, contracted, and shrunken, with her presence delicate, wispy, and
insubstantial, and her expressions of exuberance and animation appear momentary and fleeting.
In Freudian terms, her drive energy is diminished. Her investment of love and value in others and
objects is blocked and held back, as is her libido, her drive toward them. Rather than going after what
she wants, she talks herself out of what she wants and inwardly moves away from the wanting. With
the imprint in her soul of the futility of mother truly being attuned and meeting her needs, she is
resigned at the outset, convinced that she cannot get what she wants, that it will not be forthcoming,
and that whatever she is given will not be what she wanted anyway. So to circumvent the pain of not
getting what she desires and reactivating her early wounding, she may experience deep longing inside
but blocks its expression, looking apathetic to others; or at the extreme she stops desiring altogether.
She restricts her wishes and her wants, and in appearance if not in fact ceases to care about anything.
As Horney elaborates on the neurotic she refers to as the detached type:
The resigned person believes, consciously or unconsciously, that it is better not to wish or to expect
anything. Sometimes this goes with a conscious pessimistic outlook on life, a sense of its being futile
anyhow and of nothing being sufficiently desirable to make an effort for it. More often many things
appear desirable in a vague, idle way but fail to arouse a concrete, alive wish. If a wish or interest has
enough zest to penetrate through the “don’t care” attitude, it fades out soon after and the smooth
surface of “nothing matters” or “nothing should matter” is reestablished. Such “wishlessness” may
concern both professional and personal life—the wish for a different job or an advancement as well as
for a marriage, a house, a car, or other possessions. The fulfillment of these wishes may loom
primarily as a burden, and in fact would sabotage the one wish he does have—that of not being
bothered.1
Some Fives experience deep longing and caring, but, convinced that what they want will not be
forthcoming, they dissemble, appearing not to care. Others, more thoroughly convinced of the futility
of engagement, lose interest in anything altogether. In either case, with little inner drive - toward
things, a Five has difficulty initiating action, and instead she waits passively on the sidelines for
attention to come her way, for her needs to be met, and for contact with others. She is held back,
restrained by her reluctance to move toward anything out of fear of rebuff or loss, and so her actions
are stilted and awkward, infused with self-consciousness. She often feels paralyzed, unable to move in
one direction or another, and when this happens it is because she is afraid. In the same vein, she has
difficulty communicating her needs, in the extreme becoming catatonic, unable to speak.
Rather than engaging life, then, and grappling with the challenges it brings, the Five retreats from
it. Inwardly as well, as Horney says, such a person withdraws and looks on:
The direct expression of the neurotic having removed himself from the inner battlefield is his being
an onlooker at himself and his life. I have described this attitude as one of the general measures to
relieve inner tension. Since detachment is a ubiquitous and prominent attitude of his, he is also an
onlooker at others. He lives as if he were sitting in the orchestra and observing a drama acted on the
stage, and a drama which is most of the time not too exciting at that. Though he is not necessarily a
good observer, he may be very astute. Even in the very first consultation he may, with the help of some
pertinent questions, develop a picture of himself replete with a wealth of candid observation. But he
will usually add that all his knowledge has not changed anything. Of course it has not—for none of his
findings has been an experience for him. Being an onlooker at himself means just that: not actively
participating in living and unconsciously refusing to do so.2
The Five becomes, then, an observer of life rather than an active participator, and this is her trap, as
we see on Diagram 9. Her lack of participation is based on her fear of too much engagement and
involvement. As we are seeing, much of her inner dynamic is fear based; Ennea-type Five is a fear
type, one of the two points neighboring Point Six where the primary focus is on existential fear itself.
Like a Six, rather than identifying with the fittest in what feels like the struggle for survival, she
experiences herself as one of the weaklings, and so is constantly afraid. Often ectomorphic—thin and
wiry—of body type, many Fives experience themselves as puny compared with others, and in a
physical fight, they feel sure they would lose. Many, but not all Fives, experience themselves as
nebbishy or like nerds, the guy who gets sand kicked in his face at the beach, or to use a more current
term, like a geek. Many Fives feel unable to defend themselves physically, and this forms the basis of
their fear of asserting themselves. Other Fives may feel physically substantial and strong, but also
vulnerable and unable to defend themselves mentally or emotionally.
As we are seeing, a Five’s attempt to preserve her inner space and the integrity of her soul through
withdrawing from life ends up ironically also isolating her from herself. She withdraws from her
direct experience, so rather than experiencing the vibrancy of her bodily sensations and her emotions,
she observes them from a distance just as she does external things. As a result, she often feels out of
touch, spaced out, and blocked, living a lot in her mind and in fantasy.
The legs are the body part associated with Ennea-type Five. Our legs are what move us toward and
away from things, and a Five’s capacity to run away and hide feels crucial to her safety. As Horney
describes, we can readily see how fear based and survival oriented the Five’s distancing is:
As long as the detached person can keep at a distance he feels comparatively safe; if for any reason
the magic circle is penetrated, his security is threatened. This consideration brings us closer to an
understanding of why the detached person becomes panicky if he can no longer safeguard his
emotional distance from others—and we should add that the reason his panic is so great is that he has
no technique for dealing with life. He can only keep aloof and avoid life, as it were. Here again it is
the negative quality of detachment that gives the picture a special color, different from that of other
neurotic trends. To be more specific, in a difficult situation the detached person can neither appease
nor fight, neither co-operate nor dictate terms, neither love nor be ruthless. He is as defenseless as an
animal that has only one means of coping with danger—that is, to escape and hide.3
One of the key ways the Five distances internally is through the defense mechanism of isolation,
which means that she separates her emotional feelings from her memories and thoughts. She can then
remember painful and even traumatic situations without actually experiencing them as such, and can
think about a current situation without any emotion connected with it. So, for example, she might
think about a friend or partner who she is having a fight with, and feel no emotion toward that person
at all. She might conclude that she doesn’t care about him and never did, thus protecting herself from
any emotional upset about the current difficulty. Or she might tell you about a severe childhood
trauma with little or no affect connected with it, like a reporter recounting something that she
witnessed, in the spirit of objectivity from her point of view.
Another form the defense of isolation takes that is more closely related to her self-enclosure is
separating related thoughts from each other—compartmentalizing them—as though there were no
causal relationship between them. Using our example above, she might have the thought that her
friend or partner said something that hurt her feelings and another thought that she isn’t sure she ever
cared about that person anyway, without experiencing a connection or causal relationship between
these two thoughts. So her thoughts and feelings become encapsulated, self-enclosed and out of
relationship with each other, and in this way form an internal microcosm of her external relationship
to others and the world.
She maintains a sense of connection with herself and the rest of life through attentively and often
nervously looking on. Like a fox protecting the lair of her inner world, she peers out, sniffing the wind
for danger and observing from afar. Much of her energy is centered in her eyes, and a Five’s eyes are
often like bright burning coals as she keenly watches what is going on, attempting to figure it out and
thus protect herself. Developing a clear conceptual picture of what is occurring both within and
without are her focus. Knowing what is going on and knowledge itself appear to her as the keys to her
safety as well as what will bring her recognition. Rather than experiential and embodied
understanding, she substitutes conceptual knowledge and information. In this we see her personality’s
facsimile of the lost Holy Omniscience—she is attempting to be all-knowing—as well as her idealized
Aspect, which we will turn to now.
What a Five feels she lacks and believes she needs is more knowledge and understanding. This
makes sense, since if you take the stance of an onlooker at life, knowing what is going on becomes
central to your very sense of survival. Knowledge to her means safety, and so to feel more secure she
wants foreknowledge of what she will encounter and what will ensue, as well as what is expected of
her. A Five often feels that she did not understand what was going on around her in her early and later
childhood, the sense of somehow being left out of the loop of life, and so she strives to make sense out
of what she sees. She scouts the environment, trying to understand what is going on.
Somewhere deep in a Five’s soul, knowledge feels not only her key to survival but also what can
reconnect her with the lost realm of Being. She believes that if she had known what her mother
wanted, she would have been seen, and she and her mother would have connected. She came to the
conclusion someplace in her soul that it was this lack of knowledge that caused the disconnection.
Since mother and Being are synonymous in infancy, she believes that if she had known enough, she
would not have lost touch with Being, and that knowledge is the key to reconnecting. She idealizes the
quality of Being that has to do with direct knowledge, which is called Diamond Consciousness or
Diamond Guidance in the language of the Diamond Approach. As Almaas says:
This aspect of Essence is the source of true insight, intuition, knowledge and understanding. It
functions through a capacity of simultaneous analysis and synthesis. . . . Unlike all other aspects of
Being, it has the capacity to use knowledge from memory and synthesize it with immediate knowledge
in the moment, thus utilizing both mind and Being....
The Diamond Consciousness is the prototype, on the level of Being, of the faculty of understanding.
The ordinary capacity for understanding is only a reflection of this capacity. When an individual
manifests an unusual or brilliant capacity for analysis and synthesis in his or her understanding, it is
usually an indication of some degree of realization of the Diamond Consciousness. We can see the
functioning of this capacity in the work of the great original synthesizers of mankind, such as
Gautama Buddha or Sigmund Freud.4
The Buddha and Freud, by the way, may very well have been Fives, as is Almaas himself. All three
abandoned prior conceptual formulations and developed bodies of knowledge that grew out of their
direct experience and observations, and so embodied the idealized Aspect. The Buddha is known as
the Omniscient One, and in this we see the interpenetration of the Holy Idea and the idealized Aspect.
This Aspect seems to be that symbolized by the Wise Old Man archetype in Jungian psychology and
by the angel Gabriel, considered the Messenger of God in Judaism and the Angel of Revelation in
Islam.
In contrast to these exemplars, most Fives only imitate Diamond Guidance through disembodied
and thus dry mental knowledge. To the extent that a Five is not fully experiencing herself, this
facsimile is the only possibility. Of this intellectual orientation, Naranjo says:
Through a predominantly cognitive orientation the individual may seek substitute satisfaction—as
in the replacement of living through reading. Yet the symbolic replacement of life is not the only form
of expression of intense thinking activity: another aspect is the preparation for life—a preparation
that is intense to the extent that the individual never feels ready enough. In the elaboration of
perceptions as preparation for (inhibited) action, the activity of abstraction is particularly striking;
type V individuals lean - towards the activity of classification and organization, and not only display a
strong attraction towards the process of ordering experience, but tend to dwell in abstractions while
at the same time avoiding concreteness. This avoidance of concreteness, in turn, is linked to the type’s
hiddenness: only the results of one’s perceptions are offered to the world, not its raw material.5
Her inner world feels empty, devoid of the juice of life. This is the particular deficiency state at the
core of her personality, her particular hell realm, which she will do everything she can to avoid
experiencing. It has a dry, stark, depleted, sterile, and empty feel to it, filling her soul with a sense of
deprivation and inner poverty. Like a vast inner desert with no oasis in sight, she feels barren, thirsty,
and desiccated. In contrast to wetter—more emotional—types, she is in no danger of drowning in grief
but rather is in danger of evaporating from lack of anything life-giving. She feels very much alone and
unreachable here, isolated and separate from the rest of the world, and profoundly ashamed of her
inner sense of scarcity. Exposure of it, both to her own awareness and to others, feels utterly
humiliating since she believes she should have known what to do about it. This is the emptiness
referred to at Point Five on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10.
I mentioned earlier that her movement away, her withdrawal from life, was both her defense and her
suffering, and we have seen how she uses it defensively to protect herself. Her self-enclosure also
creates this desolate inner landscape and perpetuates her bone-dry sense of deficiency, forming the
basis and core of her suffering. This is the inevitable consequence of her fundamental delusion—her
fixation—that she is ultimately separate from every other entity, the cognitive error about reality
resulting from the loss of the Holy Idea. If you create an artificial boundary in your consciousness
between yourself and everything else, your soul is encapsulated and sealed off from the source of life
—Being—and inner emptiness must consequently result. This is termed stinginess by Ichazo, as we
see on the Enneagram of Fixations in Diagram 2 probably for the reasons that follow.
With this arid emptiness at her core, she feels that she has no inner reservoir on any level, and so
must hold on to the little that she has. She is frugal to the point of stinginess with her energy, her
emotions, her attention, and her communication, hence—as mentioned earlier—the name of this type,
Ego-Stinginess. She doles out little bits of herself when she sees fit, and lives unconsciously in the
fear that the rest will be taken from her. This fear of losing the little that she has is the heart of a
Five’s inner fright and dread and is the reason she is more often than not ungiving and ungenerous.
Rather than being consciously withholding, she may project her own reticence to desire things and
may believe that others, like her, do not want anything.
She withholds from herself as well as others, often having few material possessions so that she has
little to become attached to and thus little that she would miss if it were lost or stolen. Her needs are
few, even physical ones, and she tends to parcel out to herself limited quantities of food and drink,
preferring an empty belly to a full one. One Five I know refers to this tendency of his as “living lightly
on the earth,” an expression borrowed from the conservation/ecology movement. Rather than depend
on anyone else, Fives prefer to supply and use their own resources. As Horney says in this regard:
He is particularly anxious not to get attached to anything to the extent of really needing it. Nothing
should be so important for him that he could not do without it. It is all right to like a woman, a place
in the country, or certain drinks, but one should not become dependent upon them. As soon as he
becomes aware that a place, a person, or a group of people means so much to him that its loss would
be painful he tends to extract his feelings. No other person should ever have the feeling of being
necessary to him or take the relationship for granted. If he suspects the existence of either attitude he
tends to withdraw.6
Not all Fives are materially stingy with themselves, but many are. If a Five withholds from herself
in this way, it is so that she does not have to experience attachment to anything and fear its loss. Most
are frugal and tend to be stingy with others, keeping close track of what they give and what they are
owed. It rarely occurs to many Fives to be extravagant with gifts, since that frequently seems
frivolous, wasteful, and definitely imprudent to them.
This hoarding and withholding lead to the passion of this type, avarice, which we see at Point Five
on the Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. Avarice means greediness, a powerful desire to acquire.
The drive, then, for a Five is to collect, accumulate, and save resources, based on her internal sense of
deficient emptiness. It is important to understand that this is a drive to have rather than to consume.
As Naranjo says, “This is a fearful grasping, implying a fantasy that letting go would result in
catastrophic depletion. Behind the hoarding impulse there is, we may say, an experience of impending
impoverishment.”7 This is the anal retentive stance, the soul holding on to things rather than letting
them pass through.8 The internal logic is that if she squirrels enough away, she will not feel empty
anymore, but as with all attempts to fill holes in our souls that result from disconnection with Being,
no amount of reserves ever obviates her inner experience of scarcity.
The squirrel, by the way, is one of the animals associated with Ennea-type Five. The other is the
mongoose, a small creature who relies on its agility and speed, darting after its prey.
Some Fives are materially avaricious, miserly with their money, spending little in order to amass
savings so that they can pore over their stock portfolios and retirement funds in an effort to gain some
inner sense of security. Not all Fives express their avarice in this way. Whether materially avaricious
or not, most Fives are avaricious about knowledge, believing as they do that it is what will save them
and serves to a great extent as a substitute for a more active participation in life, as we have seen. For
a Five, avarice is really an attachment to the idea of what she has, so ultimately it is knowledge—
knowing what she has—rather than any possession that she is really hoarding.
For those who are fearful of having anything lest it be taken from them, which would remind them
of their fundamental and primal pain of the loss of Being, their avarice manifests more energetically:
protecting and hanging on to what little vitality and emotionality they have. Quoting Naranjo again,
“Because of an excessive resignation in regard to love and people, precisely, there is a compensatory
clutching at oneself—which may or may not manifest in a grasping onto possessions, but involves a
much more generalized hold over one’s inner life as well as an economy of effort and resources.”9
Fives are characteristically afraid of being swallowed up by another and of the demands and
expectations others might place upon them, and so withhold from wholehearted engagement in
personal relationships. For many Fives, being alone seems preferable to the risk of losing their sense
of who they are by being engulfed by a partner and to risking things being asked of them that they feel
unable or reluctant to give. What little of themselves they feel they have, they want to hold on to. For
this reason, many Fives have difficulty entering into intimate relationships, while others do so readily
but often with partners who give them ample independence and autonomy. In the latter case, they
choose partners who make few demands upon them either materially or emotionally in terms of
contact. In such cases, having someone who will take care of the mundane details of life like buying
the groceries and taking out the garbage is often worth the danger of being overwhelmed by her
partner.
At the beginning of inner work, a Five’s avarice is usually fairly unconscious to her. As we have
seen, this is true of the passions of most of the ennea-types. To feel consciously her greed,
possessiveness, and boundarysetting distancing flies in the face of her superego, the inner critic.
Feeling her avarice would lead to feeling her inner arid and desiccated emptiness, and her superego
attempts to make sure this does not happen. Her superego is mocking and disdainful, arrogant and
superior, berating her for her inner sense of impoverishment, her lack of emotion, and her fear of life.
She is at the mercy of her superego rather than identified with it as an Ennea-type One is, and its
attacks create and exacerbate her feeling just plain shitty inside.
Her response to the demands of her superego as well as to any external demands is often simply to
stonewall. Often it is even more important to her not to comply and in that way to preserve a sense of
independence than to do things that she knows are in her best interest. Naranjo says that Fives actually
want to subvert perceived demands, whether internal or external, and this may indeed be the case.
Whenever anything is perceived by a Five to be something that she is expected or that she ought to do,
she tends to go into quiet resistance. She will, for example, refuse to give gifts just because they are
expected, or not do the dishes simply because her husband wants her to, or she might procrastinate
about doing her taxes, turning them in only after all the allowable extensions have been filed. She may
say that she has every intention of doing things that are expected of her, but somehow they just don’t
get done.
A Five’s hostility, then, is expressed indirectly in passively aggressive behavior. With her docile
and accommodating self-presentation, she will agree to do things and make commitments only to
placate the other, with no intention of actually following through. She tends to procrastinate, postpone,
forget, and find all sorts of reasons why she must fulfill her obligations later. She is rarely in touch
with the hostility she is expressing in this backhanded way, and is usually quite surprised at the
frustration and rage such behavior evokes in others, who are simply feeling the anger that she is not
expressing directly and perhaps not even conscious of. She does not feel she can say no directly
because she does not feel she has the inner strength to stand behind it. Like a hollow twig, she is afraid
she would snap. So she demurs, acting out her aggression silently and not risking a confrontation with
anyone. Rarely asserting herself, she appears to go along with another’s flow, while quietly in the
background going her own way, as we saw earlier.
Her hostility is also expressed in her movement away from life. It is a very loud unspoken “No!”—a
silent rejection. Her aloofness is often laden with arrogance, superiority, and disdain—she claims that
she does not want to be involved anyway. The world is so imperfect, why should she participate?
People are such animals, why would she want to get involved with them? Strong emotions are so
messy, why should she want to sully herself by feeling, much less expressing, them?
Another reason that experiencing her avarice directly is so difficult for her is that it is an expression
of profound attachment. The avarice, as we have seen, is a drive to acquire, hold on to, and hoard, and
expresses an extreme concern with what she has. It runs completely counter to her attempt at
appearing and being detached. She idealizes her independence, autonomy, and detachment since
caring about others and about things means that if she loses them, she will feel loss and the dreaded
emptiness. She does not want to be too attached to anything, as we have seen, and this is behind her
dampening of any drive outward, toward anything. So her libidinal energy dries up, reinforcing the
inner aridity. She becomes cut off from her vibrancy, her desires, her feelings. She becomes cool and
detached, remote and indifferent, unfeeling and uncaring. Others appear like slaves to their desires,
and she has little empathy or sympathy for them, only a great sense of relief that she is not caught in
the same trap. She does not want to be hemmed in, constrained, or imprisoned by anything, and so
does not want to be pinned down or committed to anything she can’t get out of. While she may on
occasion feel somewhat robotlike and inhuman, it seems a small price to pay for the safety she has
gained by not getting too attached.
The detachment of a Five is not freedom at all, as she would like to believe. It is compulsive—she
has little choice not to respond by moving away. And it is based on fear of involvement. Moving away
from something you are afraid of is not freedom at all; it is a reaction that keeps you very much in
relationship with what you are frightened of.
Although Ichazo uses the word detachment to describe the virtue of Point Five, what he describes
might best be conveyed by the word nonattachment. We find this on the Enneagram of Virtues in
Diagram 1. Of the virtue he says, “It is the precise understanding of the body’s needs; a detached
being takes in exactly what he needs and lets everything else go. Detachment is the position which
allows the energy of life to flow easily through the body.” While Ichazo speaks of detachment relative
to the body, we can just as easily and perhaps more revealingly substitute the word soul. What is
implied, then, is a sense of permeability that allows the fullness of Essence to fill the Five’s soul and
reconnect her with her True Nature. When this happens, there is no need for avarice since she knows
herself to be an unseverable part of the Whole, partaking of its plenitude and its riches.
Since the virtue of each type is a quality that both develops in the course of one’s work on oneself
and is necessary for traversing one’s inner terrain, a Five’s path necessitates and fosters an inner
attitude of nonattachment. This means letting go of the need to hold on to anything. First and foremost
for a Five, this means letting go of her distance from herself. She will have to be willing to connect
with herself in an experiential way, with her mind following her direct experience rather than taking
the lead. In order to do this, she needs to confront her attachment to knowing before she can actually
contact her direct bodily and emotional experience. As we have seen, Fives scout the territory ahead
and try to think their way across it rather than actually traveling through it. In terms of their inner
world, this translates as mentally trying to figure out what they are experiencing and where it might
take them before actually experientially contacting it.
Although some Fives attempt to do it, inner transformation that is fully embodied and lived cannot
be achieved through the mind alone. No amount of information about the various states of
consciousness possible for the human soul can substitute for directly experiencing and integrating
them. Nor can knowledge—no matter how accurate—about the contents of a Five’s consciousness or
even consciousness in general, the nature of her ego structure, or of all of the dimensions of Being
ever substitute for touching them with her soul. Such information may be very useful and helpful as a
way of clarifying the terrain through cognitively grasping it, but it alone will not bring about inner
transformation. This is because our souls are imprinted by what touches them directly, so just as the
events of early childhood shaped our souls into personality structures, Being also must directly touch
us for our souls to be informed by It.
Like most people, a Five will first encounter her superego as she settles into herself and begins
experientially to contact the state and contents of her consciousness. Primarily she will have to defend
against her inner attacks on herself about being so wimpy, so empty, and so ineffective in life. As we
have seen, her superego is trying to protect her from experiencing her inner emptiness and gives her a
very hard time about it, which keeps her from directly experiencing it and thus being able to digest
and move through it. If a Five has done or is doing psychological or spiritual work, her superego most
likely measures her against the models used in these systems. She will therefore have to go through a
process of letting go of the cognitive frames that she has learned from these methodologies so that she
can experience herself as she is.
Many Fives are attracted to meditative paths, especially those in which contact with others and the
world is kept to a minimum. While this lack of external engagement cuts down on outer stimulus,
allowing a profound inner confrontation with oneself, such practices can be misused in the service of a
false detachment. For a Five, this can occur through pushing away rather than working through inner
contents that do not fit her spiritual superego’s idea of what she ought to be experiencing. By turning
her attention away from any troublesome direct experience, she can transcend it and become very
skilled at detaching rather than truly moving through it. In conditions of minimal input and
engagement, she can remain in a fairly serene state. This dependency upon external conditions to
support her state, however, is not true detachment, and can become a spiritual culde-sac for her.
In order to let go of needing foreknowledge about her inner process, and of the tendency to detach
from it and transcend it, a Five will have to confront the fear that drives this need, the fear of
experiencing herself exactly as she is. She will see that what she is really frightened of is experiencing
her fundamental state of deficiency, the arid emptiness at the core of her personality. She is afraid that
if she feels it, it will swallow her up and there will be nothing left, and this is ultimately the source of
her fear of engulfment. She has believed that she can conceal this sense of inner poverty from others
and from herself by camouflaging it and simply not exposing it, but sooner or later she will have to
confront it directly.
As she is gradually more and more able to let go of the need to withdraw from this parched
emptiness, an attitude of nonattachment will help move her through this huge hole in her soul. The
more she can experience it directly, the less she will be attached to it. While this may sound
paradoxical, as we have discussed earlier, we hold on to what we are afraid of experiencing. We
perpetuate our attachment to contents of our consciousness by rejecting them, since in this way we
remain engaged with them, albeit in a negative way. Our understanding and awareness cannot
penetrate such places in our souls, and so they remain encapsulated and undigested within our
consciousness.
The more a Five is able to allow and fully experience her emptiness, the more she will see that the
only thing she loses is her fear and her distance from herself. She will feel more and more in contact
with herself as she makes this inner confrontation, and she will feel stronger and more alive. She will
find that the less she holds on to, the more she has, since all she is letting go of are mental structures
and internal images of self and other. The arid inner desert will gradually become a spaciousness and a
fullness, revealing all of the inner treasures of the realm of Being.
There will, of course, be many more nuances to her process—there will be many other inner
contents that she will need to digest and resolve, and her soul will be touched by the various Aspects
of Essence whose associated issues she will have to move through—but experiencing and moving
through her deficient emptiness is central. She will probably have to approach and move through it
over and over again until her soul shifts its primary identification from her personality to Being. Like
all core issues, the emptiness will become eventually more and more transparent—less real and final
—to her.
In time, if she hangs in with her inner journey, her life will also be transformed. Rather than a life
lived from a distance, within conceptualizations and abstractions, she will little by little become more
and more touched by and in contact with reality. And rather than the realms of True Nature simply
being bits of knowledge to be collected, she will experience them directly, her soul permeable and
open. Her quest for knowledge will gradually be replaced by direct understanding, embodied and
integrated in her consciousness, and the thirst in her soul, which she may have only been dimly
conscious of, will at long last be quenched.


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## Pressed Flowers

While we're on Enneagram clips and what fits 



> so/sx 9w1
> 
> They want to contribute something new and passionate to society, but feel like too much of a social nonentity to do it. They may view themselves as 4ish due to issues around uniqueness, but these issues only arise because of how aware they are that others possess a sense of self, which only reinforces the 9's sense of nothingness....Since they know they lack a strong self, they lack hope about contributing something original. They resolve the quagmire either by spinning their wheels with fruitless and endless self-examination hoping to discover something deep about themselves or by conforming to various personalities and completely checking out. They are dispassionate in general but can seem more passionate, sad, or lively because they comply to a Oneish social instinct in the back of their head telling them how they should react and what's appropriate. They know underneath how internally unaffected they are. They are taken back by the possibilities of things they could imagine happening without stirring a real reaction in them and find it disturbing to think about how they could merge into anything... They can seem 7-like in their draw to books, people, beliefs, and adventures, but they are drawn to these outlets in hopes of receiving a sense of perspective and self. They have a nose for unconscious structures and may create a new language around patterns, themes, or archetypes in myths, traditions, history, and groups. They are easy to mistype because they can seem to run fully on the 'software" or agendas of different types. They may search for approval and validation like a 3, but reject the approval once they get it as if wondering why they would be worthy of admiration or attention in the first place. It's the 'agenda' 'software' itself they are addicted to, not the result.


I read this expecting it not to fit me but it actually does fit me. Of course. (Except I am very passionate and emotionally expressive, but eh. How could I not be.)


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## Dragheart Luard

BTW if someone else is interested in a type description, tell me which one you want to read and I can copy paste it from the ebook.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Before another random person comes in…
> 
> I'll do the honors.


_Did you draw that?_


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## Pressed Flowers

Blue Flare said:


> BTW if someone else is interested in a type description, tell me which one you want to read and I can copy paste it from the ebook.


If it isn't too much trouble... 9? But only if it doesn't take up like more than a few minutes of your time. (Thank you for even the offer.)


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## Dragheart Luard

alittlebear said:


> If it isn't too much trouble... 9? But only if it doesn't take up like more than a few minutes of your time. (Thank you for even the offer.)


Here it is the 9 description and I only have to copy paste the text lol


* *





Ennea-type Nine is the “mother” of all ennea-types, to borrow a turn of phrase from that infamous
Eight, Saddam Hussein. As we saw in Chapter 1, Point Nine represents the principle of losing contact
with our essential nature, and because this estrangement from our True Nature is common to all egos,
all of the other types can be seen as differentiations of this fundamental archetype of personality. To
put it differently, this personality type is the one most purely anchored in issues relating to the
forgetting of our real self—the falling asleep to our deepest nature—and the other types are variations
or embellishments of this basic principle at the heart of the ego.
Briefly summarizing the characteristics of this ennea-type, Nines shun calling personal attention to
themselves. They do not come across as big personalities, and instead may seem nondescript or
indistinct. They place others before themselves, and have a hard time being primary in their own and
other people’s attention. Preferring to give others the limelight, they see themselves as less important
and consequential, and tend to fade into the background. Rarely asserting themselves, they like
keeping things harmonious and pleasant, and have difficulty doing or saying anything that others
might find offensive, uncomfortable, or controversial. So they shun confrontations, rarely express
negative feelings or opinions, and focus on the positive. They are excellent mediators, able to see
everyone’s point of view, but often have difficulty discerning and expressing their own. They have
difficulty figuring out and attending to what is really essential for themselves personally. This can run
the gamut from neglecting their inner life, to not paying attention to their feelings and thoughts, to not
taking care of what they need to in their lives.
Externally directed, they may be very active or inclining toward laziness, but in either case they
leave themselves and their own personal needs out of the picture. They tend to get lost in the details of
life, and have trouble discriminating what really needs their attention. Inclining - toward inertia, they
have a difficult time getting moving and, once moving, have difficulty changing course and stopping.
They tend toward muddledness and can be a bit chaotic, but in a pleasant and inoffensive kind of way.
Inner feelings of worthlessness, unimportance, and inadequacy form their central sense of deficiency,
and they soothe themselves with comforts and diversions to numb out these painful feelings.
Energetically Nines are solid and stable, dependable and kind.
Just as the central orientation of the personality type associated with Point Nine is the most
fundamental—forgetting ourselves—so too is the Holy Idea of this point. The Holy Idea of each point
is, as we have discussed in the Introduction, a particular way that we perceive reality when all of the
subjective veils of the personality are absent. Each Holy Idea is a way of seeing the nature of reality
from a slightly different vantage point, all of which are enlightened views of it and all of which are
equally true. Each ennea-type is sensitive to the Holy Idea associated with it, which means that it is
the most unstable; and when each type loses contact with Being, so too goes its Holy Idea. As we will
explore in detail in discussing each type, the loss of its Holy Idea creates a basic blind spot for each
type.
The particular perspective on reality—the Holy Idea—that Ennea-type Nine is especially sensitive
to is called Holy Love. Holy Love is the perception that reality, when seen without the filter of ego, is
inherently loving and lovely, delighting and delightful, pleasing and pleasurable, full of wonder and
wonderful. Holy Love points to the fact that Being is both the source of love and love itself, and that
all of existence is a manifestation and embodiment of that love. Holy Love does not refer to the
feeling of love itself, but rather to the perception that Being or True Nature is inherently positive and
affects us in favorable ways. Almaas calls this characteristic “nonconceptual positivity,” and as he
says, it is difficult to convey in words, since it is something beyond our usual comparative notions of
positive versus negative, or goodness versus badness. It does not imply that everything that happens is
positive but rather that the fundamental nature of all of creation is beneficial and propitious. Hinduism
refers to this characteristic of reality as ananda, or “blissfulness,” and it is the basis of the bhakti, or
“devotional” spiritual paths, which invoke and cultivate this uplifting characteristic of Being.
Holy Love is neither an emotion, then, nor is it an essential state. This may be a bit difficult to
grasp, but might become clearer from the following quote of Almaas in which he describes the
perception of Holy Love in various Essential Aspects, or states of consciousness:
Holy Love is a clear and distinct quality of the very substance and consciousness of each essential
aspect. Holy Love is seen in the positive, uplifting, and blissful affect and effect of each aspect. It is
the sweetness and softness in Love. It is the lightness and playfulness in Joy. It is the preciousness and
the exquisiteness of Intelligence and Brilliancy. It is the purity and the confidence of Will. It is the
aliveness, excitement, and glamour of the Red or Strength aspect. It is the mysteriousness and silkiness
in the Black or Peace aspect. It is the wholeness and integrity in the Pearl or Personal Essence. It is
the freshness and the newness of Space. It is the depth, the deep warmth, and the satisfying realness of
Truth.1
Holy Love is the perception that our essential nature, regardless of which of its qualities is forefront
at any given time, is innately beautiful and that the experience of it is always a positive experience. So
on a personal level, since our essential nature forms the nucleus of all that we are, Holy Love tells us
that we are therefore fundamentally beautiful and lovable, and our inseparability from Being is what
makes this so. True Nature, in other words, suffuses our souls and our bodies with beauty and
lovableness, and is what makes us beautiful and lovable.
When we experience Being directly, without the filter of our conceptual mind, the effect it has upon
us is of a sense of meaning, of value, of benefit, of fulfillment. Our souls relax, our hearts open, and
we experience a sense of well-being in such moments. We are responding to the inherent
characteristic of reality that Holy Love describes—its pure positivity. As Almaas says,
When you objectively apprehend reality . . . you cannot help but feel positive toward it. In this
experience, there are no positive or negative categories that your mind has divided things into. There
is no polarity here; this nonconceptual positivity is beyond all polarities. The nature of reality, then,
is such that the more it touches your heart, the more your heart feels happy and full, regardless of
your mental judgments of good or bad.2
So the closer we are to our depths, the more in balance and in harmony we feel. This is because
Being is, from the angle of Holy Love, fundamentally positive and affects us as such. This explains
why being in touch with the truth of our experience and revealing ourselves as we are makes us feel
good, even if what we are getting in touch with or expressing is something we don’t like seeing or
disclosing about ourselves. We are moving deeper into ourselves, and so our souls are closer to and
more infused with the goodness of True Nature. Being more deeply in touch with ourselves just feels
better than not being in touch. Without this characteristic of Holy Love, we would not feel motivated
to travel any spiritual path. Contact with Being affects us in an agreeable, beneficial, and constructive
way, making the struggles and difficulties of becoming more conscious worth our time, energy, and
devotion.
In the course of working on ourselves, we learn in time that when we stay on the surface of
ourselves, which is to say when we are identified with and operating from our outer shell—our
personality—we suffer. The more asleep we are to the reality beneath our shells, the less we feel that
life is fulfilling, meaningful, and pleasurable. Or, in the language of the enneagram, the more fixated
we are, the less we partake of the loving nature of reality, for we have lost our connection with Holy
Love. Our suffering is not the result of being alone or of being in the wrong relationship, is not
because we don’t have enough money or because we have too much of it, or because of anything of the
sort. Nor is it because our outer surface doesn’t look as pretty as we think it should or because our
personality isn’t as pleasant as we think it might be. We suffer because we are living at a distance
from our depths—it’s as simple as that. The more our souls are infused with Being, the better we feel
and the better life seems to us, no matter what our outer circumstances happen to be.
This brings us to another nuance in our understanding of Holy Love, which has to do with its
universality. The inherent goodness of reality is not localized somewhere—it is implicit in the fabric
of all that exists. It is not a commodity that exists out there someplace, waiting for us to get in touch
with it. It does not reside in a particular person, nor is it dependent upon a particular situation. It is not
a separate something that is outside of ourselves. It is the nature of everything that exists, and we
don’t see this to the extent that we experience life through the veil of our personality. It may seem that
the goodness or beneficence of reality is something that comes and goes, that it is something we have
in one moment and lose in the next, and that is only accessible to us in certain situations and so is
about those circumstances. For example, it may seem that we only feel the goodness of life when
someone loves us or gives us attention, or when we get a promotion or a raise. Or, in the early stages
of a spiritual journey, we may only get in touch with our essential nature and experience ourselves as
wonderful and lovable when we are meditating or in the presence of our teacher, and so the positivity
of our nature seems like something that is ephemeral. This is only a stage—eventually we come to see
that the beauty and wonder of Being is not a something that resides in someone else or even that it is a
thing inside of us somewhere, but rather is the nature of everything and so is everywhere. From this
perspective, we see that there is in fact nothing but Being—it is not something we need to acquire or,
at a certain point, even connect with. The Journey, then, transforms into something else when there is
no longer the sense of it as a movement from here to there and when we recognize and abide in the
goodness and splendor of Being.
Without this perception, we might still perceive that there is benevolence in the universe, but we
don’t see that it is the nature of everything, including ourselves. When we lose contact with Holy
Love, we lose contact with its boundlessness, and it seems to us that the goodness of reality can be in
one place and not in another. So the positive becomes conditional and fleeting—it arises only in
particular situations and it is here one minute and gone the next. Likewise, one person can appear
lovable and another not.
This sense of the restrictiveness and the conditionality of the goodness of life makes possible the
delusion of Ennea-type Nine, which is the loss of perception of being made of love and so inherently
lovable. To a Nine, others appear lovable and seem to partake of the benevolence of life, while she
does not. This is the fundamental perceptual distortion of Ennea-type Nine, upon which rest all the
characteristics of this type. It is a distortion that might be difficult to see as such, since it is
fundamental to all personality types. If we consider, however, that the very substance of our bodies
and our consciousness is the expression and embodiment of Being, whose central characteristic is Its
positivity, how can we be anything but innately lovable? How can our lovability be determined by how
our bodies look, who loves us, or how much we have?
Along with the loss of contact with Essence, then, which as we have seen takes place in gradual
stages over the first three to four years of life, Ennea-type Nines lose the perception of Holy Love. For
a Nine, the process of losing contact with her essential nature results in the belief—the fixed cognitive
perception or fixation—that who she is is not inherently lovable, valuable, significant, meaningful, or
worthwhile. So the loss of contact with or turning away from Essence is also a disconnection from
experiencing herself as precious and worthy of all the positive things that life has to offer. She
experiences herself as outside of the goodness of life, not part of its fabric. This fundamental fixed
belief is the underpinning of all the resulting mental constructs, emotional affects, and behavioral
patterns of this type.
From the perspective of the forces in early life that shaped a Nine’s psyche, her psychodynamics,
the lack of holding and mirroring of her True Nature in infancy is interpreted by her as meaning that
who she is fundamentally is not worth being with and attending to. This deduction—albeit at its roots
a nonconceptual one—arises because of our soul’s inherent knowledge of her inseparability from that
core: If Being, which is who we fundamentally are, is not held and valued, we interpret this as
indicating that we are not valuable, lovable, worth being with, and so on. Filtered through a Nine’s
blindness to Holy Love, the perception—and thus experience—of her childhood is of not having
received much unconditional love, care, or attention. Whether or not she was physically or
emotionally neglected, the impression of not being personally attended to is strongly imprinted in
every Nine’s soul, since what is most real was indeed not sufficiently paid attention to: her essential
nature. Something almost completely universal—the lack of attunement to True Nature—is thus taken
very personally by Nines. Although never actually put into words, they come to the conclusion that
“Because my parents are not attuned to my depths, which is who I am, I must not be important and so
it is clear that I am fundamentally insignificant.”
Nines in turn forsake their inner depths, turning their consciousness away from Being in imitation
of their early caregivers. It is important to note that Being does not go away—it simply slips into the
unconscious. Since Being is who and what we are, one cannot turn away from it without turning away
from oneself, so Nines gradually start turning a deaf ear to themselves and expect that the world will
also. Interestingly enough, the ear is the part of the body associated with this type, and so they not
only characteristically fail to listen to themselves inwardly but often tune things out and miss what is
being said.
The “deafness” of Nines is at heart a loss of attunement to the realm of Essence, as we have seen.
So just as they believe that they can be to varying degrees negligible and forgettable, they have, with
losing contact with Essence, forgotten themselves. This self-forgetting, which is the hallmark of this
ennea-type, manifests from the depths to the outermost surface of the personality: from the forgetting
of Essence to simple forgetfulness in daily functioning. Self-forgetting basically describes a Nine’s
relationship to herself. For this reason, on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, which you will find in
Appendix B, self-forgetting appears at Point Nine. This enneagram refers to each ennea-type’s
characteristic relationship to what we experience as self—our soul—as discussed in the Introduction.
With their depths forgotten, an underlying attitude of “What’s the point of paying attention to
myself? There’s nothing of value in here anyway,” permeates the behavior, thoughts, and feelings of
Nines. They end up feeling that they are nothing special and that there is nothing remarkable about
them. The inner is neglected and forgotten, and the outer seems to be all that is worth paying attention
to. Outer expression and experience appear far more consequential than what is going on internally,
which in comparison seems insignificant and unimportant. They become more outer rather than inner
directed, synchronizing with and responding to what is needed by the environment and by others,
rather than responding to inner promptings. The needs of others drown out their own, which by
comparison feel less important and of a much lower priority. Their self-importance in time becomes
based on responding to and serving others rather than themselves.
In the process, the spiritual ground, which gives our outer expression and functioning meaning and
significance, is lost, so the outer husk of life becomes a shallow and lifeless shell. This loss of contact
with the spiritual dimension of ourselves, our essential nature, is of course the situation for those
identified with the personality, and that means at least 99 percent of humanity. Living a life that is
more than a shell is beyond the conception of most people, so living the husk of a life and forgetting
that there is anything more is a cultural given. So part and parcel of becoming a civilized human being
is this process of becoming like everyone else: losing contact with our depths. This process of human
adaptation or conditioning, which from a spiritual perspective is one of falling asleep and of selfforgetting,
is exemplified by this ennea-type.
When True Nature is not held and reflected back to us, we not only turn away from it, mimicking
how we are being related to, as we have seen, but we also add interpretations about why this is
happening. These notions are not conscious or even conceptual at their inception since they are formed
before we have the capacity to think, but they nonetheless color and flavor the whole of our
relationship to ourselves. More cognitive beliefs and attitudes about ourselves and the world we
inhabit, which develop later, are rooted in these preconceptual “interpretations.” For Nines, the
experience of their deepest nature not being held by the environment is not only interpreted as
meaning that who they fundamentally are is not worth contacting, is not inherently valuable and
lovable, and is ultimately forgettable, but also results in the felt sense that there is something
fundamentally lacking about them. This very painful feeling of lack carries the sense that there is
something missing, something unformed or undeveloped, something defective, or something
embryonic that has become twisted and deformed. For Nines, this is the sense of self that surrounds
the hole where contact with True Nature has been lost, and forms their fundamental sense of
deficiency. Each ennea-type has a characteristic deficiency state upon which the personality is built,
but all of them are variations on that of Point Nine: the basic inner sense that something is lacking or
inadequate about oneself.
In all the types, this sense of deficiency is the often unconscious basis of our inner picture of
ourselves—our self-image—which in turn shapes our experience of ourselves. A Nine sees and
experiences herself as someone who is fundamentally missing some parts, didn’t arrive with all that
was needed, is lacking something crucial, is stunted or misshapen, as though something basic never
developed fully or even at all, or perhaps was never there to begin with. There may even be the sense
for a Nine of her soul being stillborn or dead. Obviously this deeply painful sense of deficiency is a
reflection of the truth that she is indeed missing something crucial: contact with who she really is
beyond this self-image, which is based on insufficiency.
Our self-image does not arise in isolation, as we saw in Chapter 1. Our sense of self, which begins
to form in infancy and is rooted in the body, is based not only on internal sensations but also develops
through contact with the environment on the surface of our skin. So our sense of who we are always
arises in relation to what is other than us, i.e., what is beyond our body’s edges. Our self-image, then,
exists in counterpoint to an object-image, a conceptual picture of “other.” The other for Nines appears
to have what they don’t: others arrived with all their parts intact and are inherently lovable and
valuable. Compared to others, Nines feel acutely inferior: not as good, complete, or worthy. This sense
may have developed through having had a parent who appeared to the Nine as special and gifted in
some way, or who simply took up a lot of psychic space because of being highly emotive, mentally
unstable, or very outgoing. In relation to that parent, she became background, functioning as a
backdrop. Again, as discussed in the Introduction, it is important to remember that this may not have
been the main characteristic about that parent or even one that was especially strong. But because of a
Nine’s particular sensitivity, this was the one that she picked up on and responded to.
Having had a sibling who appeared more central in the family dynamics, one who was more
assertive or who had special qualities or special problems, is a common variation. Another is that of
growing up in a crowd: being one of many children or other relatives in the home, so the Nine ended
up feeling lost in the shuffle. Her role or function in the family may have seemed like all that
mattered, and so anything strictly personal about the Nine seemed unimportant and forgotten.
Regardless of who the object was (or were) that the sense of self arose in relation to, this primary
relationship forms the template for all subsequent experiences of self and other. In a nutshell, relative
to other, a Nine feels not only inferior but also inconsequential.
A Nine develops, then, a sense of invisibility and a deep resignation about ever being center stage
and loved or valued in her own right—both by others and also within her own consciousness—leading
to a pervasive self-abnegation. Nines assume that they will not get love and attention, and also that
they do not deserve it, since they have lost their innate sense of value and worth. This resigned selfabasement
manifests in many ways: they have great difficulty with attention being focused upon them,
with taking up their own space and other people’s time, with asking to be seen or heard, much less
loved, and tend to shun anything that would bring them to the fore or call attention to themselves.
They melt into the background, rarely expressing themselves in a group. Because reality has a peculiar
way of conforming to our beliefs about it, even when they do assert themselves and speak up, their
assumption that they will not be received is often, in fact, confirmed, and they are ignored. It is as
though they generate a field around them that says, “Don’t pay attention to me—I am not important.”
They are thus easily overlooked and not considered by others; this reflects and reinforces their basic
assumption about themselves. Ironically, many Nines are physically imposing, mesomorphic of body
type—large, round, and sturdy looking.
Each ennea-type defends against experiencing its core deficiency state because it is incredibly
painful and because it appears to be the bottom line—the ultimate and unalterable truth about oneself.
This belief that something is fundamentally lacking or wrong with us, like all of the convictions that
shape our personality, is not, once again, simply an intellectual idea—it is a felt experience and so
appears to be the truth. It feels so true that it seems ridiculous even to suggest that it is simply an
assumption. Because it seems to be reality, the energy of the personality goes into keeping one’s
consciousness away from this painful sense of deficiency, and all the defenses one uses feel necessary
and justified. Experiencing it seems as if it would only confirm it, and why question something that
appears so unshakably true? All of the defensive strategies and defense mechanisms of the personality
are at their core marshaled against this deficient experience of self.
Nines defend against their fundamental sense of being deficient and unlovable in a very
straightforward way: they simply push it out of consciousness. A numbing or deadening of inner
awareness and a shift of attention from inside oneself to outside seem to be the best ways of dulling
their inner pain. This lulling of oneself into psychic sleep is the defense mechanism of Point Nine,
which is called narcotization. Unfortunately, we cannot pick and choose which aspects of inner
experience we want to render unconscious and which we want to retain, so the result is that much, if
not all, of the inner life of a Nine fades into unawareness. The narcotizing of self can manifest visibly:
a Nine’s eyes may look dull, dead, or glazed over. It also manifests behaviorally in the form of a
predilection for distractions that divert her consciousness away from herself. One Nine I know has to
have the TV or radio on at all times, even when falling asleep at night, and wears a Walkman
whenever out for a walk. Burying herself in crossword puzzles, games like Trivial Pursuit, afternoon
talk shows, the newspaper, or getting lost in trashy novels are other forms of diversions that a Nine
might use to distract herself.
What results is a characteristic inner experience of being in a morass, a dense foggy state, in which
nothing is very defined or discriminated and everything feels murky and diffuse. A lack of vitality and
vibrancy and a sense of numbness, boredom, deadness, lethargy, and heaviness pervade. Naranjo used
to describe female Nines as “swamp queens,” which nicely describes the feel of this inner landscape—
languid and stagnant. It also conveys the feeling tone that is the passion of this ennea-type: indolence,
as we see on the Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. Characteristic of this marshy inner terrain is
this indolence, a quality of laziness and stuckness that exerts for this type an inexorable kind of
gravitational pull. It may take the form of procrastination and lethargy, having difficulty rousing
herself to accomplish the task at hand, or of doing everything except the one thing that really needs to
be done.
Part of the fuzziness of a Nine’s inner terrain is often due to her inability to tell what direction to
move in or which action needs to be taken. It is like bumping around in the darkness, bumbling along
following the line of least resistance, rather than clearly perceiving the appropriate course to take and
following it. An inner sense of chaos and disorder, which may be reflected outwardly in messiness and
clutter, is the more superficial manifestation of this inner state. What may appear to others as
procrastination may be a Nine’s need to order what she perceives as the chaos around her and bring
clarity to her environment before she can settle down to the task at hand, reflecting her attempt to
come to grips with her inner disarray. The guidance and orientation that only contact with self can
provide have been tuned out; a Nine’s inner knowing either - doesn’t break the surface of
consciousness or is ignored.
This indolent atmosphere, which could also be described as one of laziness and heedlessness, has
many levels and nuances to it, as we are seeing. The indolence might express itself in an obliviousness
to what needs attention or action, or if there is a sense that something needs to be done, a lack of
discrimination or difficulty determining what exactly it is; a difficulty assessing priority of
importance; and/or losing her focus and contact with herself in the details of the task or inadvertently
substituting another one for it. A Nine who is facing a crucial deadline on a project, for example,
might find herself cleaning the entire house or going through all of her files with the initial idea that
this is necessary to do first so that she can really concentrate on the task, and then becoming so
absorbed in all the things she finds herself ordering that she forgets the project entirely and runs out of
time for it. Her difficulty prioritizing what needs to be done reflects her characteristic trouble with
discrimination and organization—she simply has difficulty discerning what needs to be done and in
what order to do things. If it is clear what needs to be done, the indolence might show up as simply not
having the energy for it and just not doing it.
The indolence characteristically manifests outwardly in Nines as heedlessness about their
appearance and about diet and exercise (with a resulting tendency to be overweight), as well as in
other forms of self-neglect. Lacking attunement to their physical and psychic limits, some Nines
overextend themselves, mostly in the service of others’ needs, to the point of collapse. Other Nines
underextend, preferring comfort and indulgence to bestirring themselves. Or a Nine might focus on,
and indeed obsess about, one particular aspect of maintaining her health, like dietary supplements for
example, while making really poor choices about what she eats and neglecting to exercise. A symptom
might be focused upon rather than the cause: attention may be lavished on a sore ankle, for instance,
without associating that difficulty to excess weight or inappropriate shoes.
Ultimately, however, the central issue of a Nine’s indolence is not related to either outward doing or
physical neglect. This is an extremely important point to grasp, since it explains why some Nines can
be workaholics, while others seem to do little with their time. What is personally significant is what is
most neglected by a Nine, and ultimately her laziness is about paying attention to and cultivating
contact with what is most real within herself: at its heart, this laziness is fundamentally being
unconscious to and remaining unconscious to her essential nature.
As mentioned earlier, a Nine’s characteristic of forgetfulness not only manifests in losing sight of
her depths—her True Nature—but can also manifest as more superficial absentmindedness. Nines
tend to be simply forgetful. They don’t remember things, what they need to do slips their minds, and
they lose track of what they embark upon by becoming easily distracted by irrelevant things. The
forgetting is at root a Nine’s attempt to dull herself to her inner sense of being unlovable, negligible,
and valueless; so while it may feel problematic, it is ultimately a defense against what feels
intolerable to experience. This forgetfulness exacerbates the feeling of disorientation, of lostness in
the inner morass, and consequently also amplifies the sense of being stuck or paralyzed that Nines
often feel quite helpless to do anything about.
This stuckness, which can feel like having her feet embedded in wet cement or, alternatively, of
sinking into quicksand, is connected with the characteristic inertia of Nines. In physics, inertia is
defined as “the tendency of a body to resist acceleration; the tendency of a body at rest to remain at
rest or of a body in motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless disturbed by an external force.”3
Inertia is not the sole domain of Nines; it is fundamental to the perpetuation of the personality,
regardless of one’s type. It is a maintaining of our conditioned patterns of thought, feeling, and
behavior, a preservation of the grooves in the soul, imprinted through experiences in our distant past.
These patterns form the fabric of the personality, and the inertia that maintains them may feel like a
leadenness when experientially contacted, weighing us down and dulling our senses.
In Nines, this inertia typically appears as having great difficulty initiating action or, once moving,
in changing direction. Like the elephant, the animal associated with Point Nine, they are slow to get
moving and, once in motion, have a hard time stopping. In other words, once their course is set or
their routine becomes habitual, these patterns are not easily altered, and Nines obstinately hold to
them. They can be tenaciously stubborn, digging their heels in and refusing to change their minds or
their course of action. This manifests most poignantly in a determined clinging that many Nines have
to their deep sense of being inferior and deficient: often no amount of evidence to the contrary seems
capable of dislodging this embedded belief.
Her superego supports her sense of deficiency. Like much else in the inner world of a Nine, it is
often amorphous and not a clearly differentiated critical and judgmental inner voice. Initially it may
feel like more of a depressing and minimizing feeling tone, an assertive, although passive, push to
stay invisible and not take up too much space. Evidence of her superego will be seen in the shame she
feels about having needs and difficulties, as if they shouldn’t be there, and for having any anger or
aggression. Her superego demands, in a vague and not too evident way, that she is responsible for
keeping the environment happy and safe, and pushes her to take care of others. As a child, she might
feel compelled by her inner demands to befriend the new kid at school or the sick one that the other
kids ostracize. Often this is a way of minimizing the pain of another so that she will not be reminded
of her own sense of not being loved or lovable. Her superego pushes her not to upset anyone, to stay
middle-of-theroad, so that even as a rebellious teenager, she makes sure everyone feels good about
her. Transitions are difficult and threatening, so Nines tend to avoid any changes in relationships, work,
life direction, and so on. The universal characteristic in the personality of clinging to the familiar is
exemplified here. They like stability and support the status quo, resisting change and innovation.
Preserving what we called in the sixties the “Establishment”—the prevailing sociopolitical order—is
the domain of Nines. As a whole they tend to be conservative and orthodox, politically and otherwise,
entrenched in tradition, custom bound, and resistant to change. This is not to say that Nines are never
revolutionaries, but when they are, they are very doctrinaire, adhering to and supporting their new
Establishment, becoming in effect conservative radicals.
It is often difficult for Nines to discriminate what values they personally hold, following instead the
line of least resistance in conforming to those of their culture or subculture. This is why
consideration/mechanical conformity appears at Point Nine on the Enneagram of Lies, the enneagram
charting the characteristic ways each type forsakes its own truth, and which you will find in Appendix
B. A Nine’s lie is in considering others and not herself, as discussed earlier, and mechanically
conforming to the prevailing currents. Because of this tendency, Nine-ness is associated with
bureaucratic and robotic behavior and institutions in which the motions are gone through with little
personal engagement. Not to make waves, Nines fit in, conforming to the role assigned to them and
following the program seamlessly.
They become cogs in a larger wheel, oiling any squeaks by shutting them off from awareness and so
attending to their niche without complaint. Deadened to their inner world and caught up in outer
functioning without questioning it, life for a Nine can become institutionalized, mechanical, and
robotic. The stereotype of the nameless and faceless bureaucrat typifies this quality, buried in red tape
and busy with paperwork, insisting on protocol even when it makes no sense, with nothing real or
relevant being accomplished. The U.S. Postal Service and the Internal Revenue Service are frequently
thought of in this way. At first glance, this robotic tendency may seem at odds with the laziness and
disorganization mentioned earlier as typifying this type. On closer inspection, we see that a Nine may
have one area of life in which she is a stickler for detail and fulfills her function seamlessly, but the
rest of her life may be in a state of disarray, or there simply may not be a rest of her life to speak of.
Anything personal or individual may be neglected or shunned as unimportant. The versions of
communism embodied in the former Soviet Union and in China (two of the cultures associated with
Point Nine) exemplify this perfunctory way of life, in which the individual’s value is derived from
how smoothly he or she functions in the overall machine of state and in which personal opinion or
wishes are subsumed in the collective momentum.4
Mentally a Nine’s inertia manifests as stubbornly holding on to what is familiar and known, and a
tendency to be dogmatic and opinionated. Once they have landed in a conceptual groove, their minds
become closed and resistant to influence. Their mental laziness reveals itself in literalmindedness and
matter-of-factness, taking things at face value rather than being attuned to subtleties. It is also seen in
losing sight of the idea behind an action, procedure, or policy and simply automatically performing it.
Set in their ways, obstinate, and inflexible, Nines may be perceived by others as bland, unexciting,
or undynamic, but the flip side is that they also seem very solid and rocklike: dependable, implacable,
persistent, and consistent. Rarely erratic or explosive, Nines are steadier than the other ennea-types,
and give the impression that they can always be counted on—and indeed they usually can be. Since
their evenness and dependability result from absenting themselves from priority and deriving a sense
of value and worth from outer activity, these qualities are a mixed blessing at best for a Nine.
Closely connected to the inertia of Nines is their avoidance of discomfort. Comfort is very
important to them, and they invest much time and energy into making themselves both physically and
emotionally comfortable. Their defense mechanism of narcotization discussed earlier is a
psychological attempt at comfort. Behaviorally they tend to collect things that will make their lives
superficially more pleasant, pouring through catalogues filled with gadgets to make life run more
easily and smoothly. Water beds, heated swimming pools, motels, remote controls, and Jacuzzis are
examples of the kinds of things Nines relish since they reduce physical exertion and thus discomfort.
Devices and contrivances that promise comfort are part of the quest for diversion that is characteristic
of Nines, as is their typical love for amusements, pleasantries, trivia, and minutia. Ultimately all of
the gadgets and entertainments are distractions from their painful sense of deficiency and
unlovability. This is the pain that must be soothed and anesthetized through diversions and ease.
Because they rarely rock the boat and try to make others just as comfortable as they would like to
be, it’s very pleasant to be with Nines as a rule, although you might come away hungry for something
to chew on or engage with, wondering, Where’s the beef? They seem to be peaceful, untroubled, and
calm. They are compliant, amicable, cordial, and genial and, for the most part, easy to be with. While
you may not find out what is really going on inside them, you will feel cared for and soothed.
Exemplifying this, Ed McMahon, the former Tonight Show sidekick, fulfilled this function in
counterpoint to Johnny Carson’s more mercurial temperament. Walter Cronkite was for decades a
calming presence in American homes, reporting on the often turbulent events of the sixties and
seventies on the CBS televised evening news. Today we have Rosie O’Donnell, actress and talk show
host who has been dubbed the queen of nice on television in the afternoons. While these last two
exemplars may seem at odds with the picture of Nines as lazy, it is important to remember that the
indolence of a Nine is something much deeper than whether or not they outwardly get a task done.
The most uncomfortable thing to a Nine is conflict, and so they avoid it at all costs, as we see on the
Enneagram of Avoidances, found in Appendix B. Upsetting the prevailing flow of things, or lack
thereof, might be uncomfortable, and so it is decisively shunned. Rather than clash with others, they
appease and placate. They have difficulty confronting others, especially about being overlooked,
unconsidered, not listened to, and so on, and will often talk themselves out of their ruffled feelings or
simply distract themselves from feeling hurt rather than risking locking horns with another by
bringing up a difficulty. In this regard, Lady Bird Johnson comes to mind, serving as a foil for her
volatile Eight husband, LBJ. Edith Bunker, the television character in the series All in the Family,
fulfilled the same placating role with her Eight husband, the bigoted and abusive Archie.
Because keeping the peace is so important, they are good mediators and peacemakers, finding ways
to smooth things out, which can drift into smoothing things over. Beyond the motivation to maintain
harmony, they also mediate well because they can see things from many angles and are able to
understand everyone’s point of view. Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander during
World War II and two-term U.S. president, exemplifies this Nine-ish forte as we see in the following
biographical excerpt:
Eisenhower’s rapid advancement, after a long army career spent in relative obscurity, was not only
due to his knowledge of military strategy and a talent for organization but also to his ability to
persuade, to mediate, and to be agreeable. Men from a variety of backgrounds and nationalities,
impressed by his friendliness, humility, and persistent optimism, liked and trusted him.5
Nines are said to have the most objective perception of all the types, being able to set aside any
personal bias and see what is going on around them clearly. This is another dubious blessing, since it
is based on self-forgetting: What is difficult for them is knowing where they stand and what they feel,
since their tendency is to be outwardly rather than inwardly attuned. Keeping their perceptions—
especially critical ones of others—somewhat vague and fuzzy ensures that they will not be hurtful
toward others, as they assume being sharp and clear would be. Even if they are in touch with what they
think and feel, they rarely put their thoughts and feelings forward because of the risk of a challenge.
Psychodynamically this avoidance of conflict may have its roots in not wanting to upset or stand up to
an inattentive parent for fear of losing what little love and attention they seem to be receiving. The
laid-back and hang-loose Polynesian culture exemplifies this comfort-loving and conflict-avoiding
side of Ennea-type Nine.
As discussed in the Introduction, the personality structure and behavioral patterns of each enneatype
mimic a particular quality of Being, or state of consciousness, which is called its idealized
Aspect. This replication can be seen as the soul’s attempt to shape itself into an embodiment of the
lost Holy Idea. Because the soul has lost contact with her essential roots, this embodiment is of
necessity a fake. Through this simulation, the soul attempts to recapture the lost Holy Idea, which in
the case of Ennea-type Nine is the perception that the universe is inherently loving and that, as a
manifestation of it, she is inherently lovable. The quality of Being that Ennea-type Nine emulates is
called Living Daylight in the Diamond Approach. It is called this because that is what it feels like
when we contact this particular presence: warm and life-giving sunlight. We feel held in a sweet and
gentle presence that is totally loving, beneficent, and well disposed toward us. We feel that we can
relax and let go, and that we will be held and supported by a universe that is suffused with goodness,
and that is inherently kind and life affirming. It is the gentle and loving presence that pervades and
sustains all of creation, which in some traditions is referred to as Cosmic or Divine Love, and in the
theistic traditions is what is meant by the concept of God.
The simulation of Living Daylight can be glimpsed in all of the personality traits of Ennea-type
Nine. As a whole, the cognitive, emotional, and behavioral style of this type is an attempt to be a
person who is loving, holding, supportive, kind, and gentle in a very unobtrusive and inconspicuous
way. The stability and solidity, the impartiality and congeniality, the emphasis on comfort and
harmony that are characteristic of this type all are simulations on the personality level of this
dimension of reality. Since Living Daylight is the experience of Being as supportive ground, the Nine
stance in life of unobtrusively staying in the shadows is an important part of this replication.
Not only does the personality attempt to emulate the idealized Aspect but this quality of Being is
also idealized in the sense that it looks like the solution to one’s difficulties and deficiencies. Each
ennea-type, therefore, can be seen as an attempt to have as well as an attempt to become the idealized
Aspect. That particular state of consciousness will be sought, either directly or through manifestations
that seem to embody it, whether in the form of another person or an object. So Nines not only attempt
to “look” like or shape themselves into a facsimile of Living Daylight but also believe that if they
were loved and held, and if they were treated like an implicit part of the whole (whatever they take
that to be), their problems would be over. The love and holding, as well as the sense of inclusion that
they seek, might appear to reside in social or intimate relationships, in having a comfortable and easy
life, or in cozy pleasantries and diversions.
The real resolution, however, will not be found in these places. It lies in moving beyond
identification with the realm of the personality and reconnecting with the realm of Being. This will
require for a Nine cultivating the virtue associated with this point, action, which we find in Diagram 1
in the enneagram in the heart region of the figure. As mentioned in the Introduction, the virtue not
only manifests itself the freer one becomes from identification with one’s personality, but also is what
is needed for this disidentification to happen. The following is Ichazo’s definition of the virtue of
action:
It is essential movement without interference from the mind, arising naturally from the body’s need
to function in harmony with its environment. Action is the normal attitude of a being in tune with his
own energy and with the energy of the planet.6
Real action, then, which is based on authentic harmony and an internal as well as an external
responsiveness, necessitates for a Nine a radical change of focus. First and foremost, it implies
becoming present and conscious of what is going on inside herself. It means changing her focus and
orientation from her actions and interactions to the source out of which functioning arises—her
consciousness or soul. The more conscious we become of the state of our soul, which is our inner
experience, and the more we inquire into what is shaping it, the more transparent the shell of the
personality becomes. Eventually it becomes so thin that we can experience the realms of Being
beyond it. This is a waking up from the sleep of unconsciousness, and a remembering of the depths
within that the Nine has forgotten. This is true action, action that is essential in both senses of the
word.
Action, in the sense it is used here, is the opposite of the passion of indolence. So rather than
engaging in nonessential activities—doing things that are distractions or unnecessary—or not doing
anything at all, real action is the capacity to discriminate what really needs to be done and doing it.
The more freedom a Nine has from the grip of identification with the personality, the more able she
becomes to do what is really important. This might mean simply paying attention to her physical or
emotional needs or, on a deeper level, doing what it takes to make the unconscious—which includes
the essential realm—conscious.
The elephant, the animal associated with this point as mentioned earlier, is relevant in connection
with the virtue of action. In Buddhist iconography, the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra (in Sanskrit) or
Fugen (in Japanese), who represents spiritual practice as compassion, sits on an elephant throne. This
symbolizes that true kindness toward oneself is having the steadiness, solidity, patience, and inner
power—like an elephant—to work on oneself in a committed and determined way.
For a Nine, this radical shift in focus—from outside of herself to what is going on within—is a huge
step and is the key to her unfoldment. Taking this step will require questioning some of her basic
beliefs about herself, most specifically the assumption that she is not worth considering and paying
attention to. It is a knee-jerk reaction for a Nine to disregard herself and simply to go along with the
prevailing flow of other people’s desires, preferences, and actions. Throughout her work on herself,
this tendency to absent herself and overlook herself will arise in ever more subtle ways, and she will
need to repeatedly notice it and inquire into why she is doing it.
Making this internal shift—which is really taking action to reverse the inertial pull of her
personality in keeping her awareness away from her inner life—will require facing her tendency to
distract herself. There may be endless crises in her life or ceaseless demands at work that seem to
require her to stay busy juggling things so that she can’t pay attention to herself. She will have to be
willing to let all the plates that she keeps spinning fall in order to make herself primary in her own
consciousness. Blaming others and life in general for her difficulties and trying to get satisfaction on
external terms will have to be seen as the diversion that it is. She will have to face her tendency to
seek gratification and answers outside of herself, a tendency encapsulated by the “seeker” on the
Enneagram of Traps, which we find in Appendix B. The traps are the characteristic ways each type
distracts their attention from the real issue. She will have to pay attention to what is going on inside
rather than staying focused on what is happening outside, no matter how enticing keeping all those
balls in the air seems to be.
Her superego vigilantly wants to keep this shift in attention from happening, however, so she must
defend against her inner attacks on herself just to have the space to pay attention to herself. Her
superego wants to protect her at all costs from coming into conflict with others, which looks like the
inevitable result if she pays attention to her own desires, feelings, and inner promptings. It berates her
and tells her to be good and not make waves by going along with the prevailing external flow, cautions
her against making too big a deal about herself, and admonishes her that taking up too much space
might be dangerous. To defend against these attacks, her desire to know who she is beyond her
indolent shell will have to become stronger than her desire for comfort. This is a reciprocal process, as
the more she gets in touch with her essential self, the more her inner strength will rally to defend her
soul. She will discover that true ease and comfort reside in Being and not in indolently forgetting
herself.
Really grappling with her habitual tendency to ignore and neglect herself and defending against her
superego will rapidly confront a Nine with her profound sense of worthlessness, valuelessness, and
unlovability. Deeper still, she will encounter the felt sense that she is fundamentally lacking and
inadequate, the deficiency state at the core of her personality. She will need to unearth, examine, and
inquire into why she believes this about herself and how this central belief became the foundation of
her sense of self. As she allows and feels into this extremely painful sense of inadequacy and of
inferiority, memories both conceptual and preconceptual that gave rise to and supported this sense of
herself will surface and need to be digested. The resulting object relations—her inner sense of self and
other—will need to be seen in operation externally, and she will need to bring to consciousness these
internal constructs.
Simultaneously taking real action will mean connecting with and fully inhabiting her body. Rather
than skipping over and minimizing her inner sensations, she will need to become attuned to them and
pay attention to them. Making deep experiential contact with her body will bring up all of the years of
neglect, and probably much grief will be experienced. The more that she fully abides in her body and
focuses her attention within it, the more she is at the same time contacting as well as supporting a
sense of her own inherent value and self-worth. Also, the more she pays attention to her body, the
more she will begin noticing and listening to her emotions, and the sharper and clearer her mind will
become. She will increasingly feel more alive and more a part of life. Eventually, as she keeps
focusing her awareness within, what she senses will be the entirety of her soul.
The more present she becomes, the more she will become aware of her absence of contact with her
essential nature, which may feel like a huge hole in her soul. As she allows herself to feel into this
hole and to be curious about it, rather than escaping from it into sleepiness or distractions, she will
find that what she had experienced as a deficient emptiness changes. As she progressively opens to it
and explores how it really feels, the negativity and feelings of lack will transform. The emptiness
becomes a spaciousness, and over time all of the qualities of Being will gradually arise in her
consciousness as she makes this inner descent over and over again. For a long time, it will seem to her
that Being comes and goes, until a sort of critical mass is reached in her soul, and her identity shifts
from her personality to Being. Then Being will feel like the ground of her experience, and she will see
that it was she who came and went, losing and gaining consciousness of what was there all the time.
Eventually, the shell of her personality will become more and more transparent to Being, and as this
happens, she will find herself experiencing, embodying, and manifesting the quality of Being she has
tried to emulate, Living Daylight. Her inner experience will gradually change from feeling deficient,
unloved, unimportant, and overlooked to feeling sustained, taken care of, and inseparable from a
beneficent universe filled with love and blessings. When this happens, she will at long last fully know
herself to be truly a manifestation and embodiment of the love of the Divine.


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## Greyhart

ElliCat said:


> Helsinki is lovely in summer. Not so nice in the winter, *too much slush and not enough proper snow*. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to do winter, you have to do it properly.


HELSINKI? REALLY?? Fuck global warming. I still remember proper white snowy Decembers we had in 90s. Not it's sludge until mid Jan and then snow until mid April.


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## Pressed Flowers

@Blue Flare omg thank you!!??!

(I didn't realize that because my Kindle usually only lets me copy a little at a time, gah)


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## Dragheart Luard

alittlebear said:


> @_Blue Flare_ omg thank you!!??!
> 
> (I didn't realize that because my Kindle usually only lets me copy a little at a time, gah)


I have the pdf in my laptop, so I can copy paste the whole chapter XD


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## Pressed Flowers

Also how does this stuff keep fitting me. Oh my goodness. 


Blue Flare said:


> Here it is the 9 description and I only have to copy paste the text lol
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ennea-type Nine is the “mother” of all ennea-types, to borrow a turn of phrase from that infamous
> Eight, Saddam Hussein. As we saw in Chapter 1, Point Nine represents the principle of losing contact
> with our essential nature, and because this estrangement from our True Nature is common to all egos,
> all of the other types can be seen as differentiations of this fundamental archetype of personality. To
> put it differently, this personality type is the one most purely anchored in issues relating to the
> forgetting of our real self—the falling asleep to our deepest nature—and the other types are variations
> or embellishments of this basic principle at the heart of the ego.
> Briefly summarizing the characteristics of this ennea-type, Nines shun calling personal attention to
> themselves. They do not come across as big personalities, and instead may seem nondescript or
> indistinct. They place others before themselves, and have a hard time being primary in their own and
> other people’s attention. Preferring to give others the limelight, they see themselves as less important
> and consequential, and tend to fade into the background. Rarely asserting themselves, they like
> keeping things harmonious and pleasant, and have difficulty doing or saying anything that others
> might find offensive, uncomfortable, or controversial. So they shun confrontations, rarely express
> negative feelings or opinions, and focus on the positive. They are excellent mediators, able to see
> everyone’s point of view, but often have difficulty discerning and expressing their own. They have
> difficulty figuring out and attending to what is really essential for themselves personally. This can run
> the gamut from neglecting their inner life, to not paying attention to their feelings and thoughts, to not
> taking care of what they need to in their lives.
> Externally directed, they may be very active or inclining toward laziness, but in either case they
> leave themselves and their own personal needs out of the picture. They tend to get lost in the details of
> life, and have trouble discriminating what really needs their attention. Inclining - toward inertia, they
> have a difficult time getting moving and, once moving, have difficulty changing course and stopping.
> They tend toward muddledness and can be a bit chaotic, but in a pleasant and inoffensive kind of way.
> Inner feelings of worthlessness, unimportance, and inadequacy form their central sense of deficiency,
> and they soothe themselves with comforts and diversions to numb out these painful feelings.
> Energetically Nines are solid and stable, dependable and kind.
> Just as the central orientation of the personality type associated with Point Nine is the most
> fundamental—forgetting ourselves—so too is the Holy Idea of this point. The Holy Idea of each point
> is, as we have discussed in the Introduction, a particular way that we perceive reality when all of the
> subjective veils of the personality are absent. Each Holy Idea is a way of seeing the nature of reality
> from a slightly different vantage point, all of which are enlightened views of it and all of which are
> equally true. Each ennea-type is sensitive to the Holy Idea associated with it, which means that it is
> the most unstable; and when each type loses contact with Being, so too goes its Holy Idea. As we will
> explore in detail in discussing each type, the loss of its Holy Idea creates a basic blind spot for each
> type.
> The particular perspective on reality—the Holy Idea—that Ennea-type Nine is especially sensitive
> to is called Holy Love. Holy Love is the perception that reality, when seen without the filter of ego, is
> inherently loving and lovely, delighting and delightful, pleasing and pleasurable, full of wonder and
> wonderful. Holy Love points to the fact that Being is both the source of love and love itself, and that
> all of existence is a manifestation and embodiment of that love. Holy Love does not refer to the
> feeling of love itself, but rather to the perception that Being or True Nature is inherently positive and
> affects us in favorable ways. Almaas calls this characteristic “nonconceptual positivity,” and as he
> says, it is difficult to convey in words, since it is something beyond our usual comparative notions of
> positive versus negative, or goodness versus badness. It does not imply that everything that happens is
> positive but rather that the fundamental nature of all of creation is beneficial and propitious. Hinduism
> refers to this characteristic of reality as ananda, or “blissfulness,” and it is the basis of the bhakti, or
> “devotional” spiritual paths, which invoke and cultivate this uplifting characteristic of Being.
> Holy Love is neither an emotion, then, nor is it an essential state. This may be a bit difficult to
> grasp, but might become clearer from the following quote of Almaas in which he describes the
> perception of Holy Love in various Essential Aspects, or states of consciousness:
> Holy Love is a clear and distinct quality of the very substance and consciousness of each essential
> aspect. Holy Love is seen in the positive, uplifting, and blissful affect and effect of each aspect. It is
> the sweetness and softness in Love. It is the lightness and playfulness in Joy. It is the preciousness and
> the exquisiteness of Intelligence and Brilliancy. It is the purity and the confidence of Will. It is the
> aliveness, excitement, and glamour of the Red or Strength aspect. It is the mysteriousness and silkiness
> in the Black or Peace aspect. It is the wholeness and integrity in the Pearl or Personal Essence. It is
> the freshness and the newness of Space. It is the depth, the deep warmth, and the satisfying realness of
> Truth.1
> Holy Love is the perception that our essential nature, regardless of which of its qualities is forefront
> at any given time, is innately beautiful and that the experience of it is always a positive experience. So
> on a personal level, since our essential nature forms the nucleus of all that we are, Holy Love tells us
> that we are therefore fundamentally beautiful and lovable, and our inseparability from Being is what
> makes this so. True Nature, in other words, suffuses our souls and our bodies with beauty and
> lovableness, and is what makes us beautiful and lovable.
> When we experience Being directly, without the filter of our conceptual mind, the effect it has upon
> us is of a sense of meaning, of value, of benefit, of fulfillment. Our souls relax, our hearts open, and
> we experience a sense of well-being in such moments. We are responding to the inherent
> characteristic of reality that Holy Love describes—its pure positivity. As Almaas says,
> When you objectively apprehend reality . . . you cannot help but feel positive toward it. In this
> experience, there are no positive or negative categories that your mind has divided things into. There
> is no polarity here; this nonconceptual positivity is beyond all polarities. The nature of reality, then,
> is such that the more it touches your heart, the more your heart feels happy and full, regardless of
> your mental judgments of good or bad.2
> So the closer we are to our depths, the more in balance and in harmony we feel. This is because
> Being is, from the angle of Holy Love, fundamentally positive and affects us as such. This explains
> why being in touch with the truth of our experience and revealing ourselves as we are makes us feel
> good, even if what we are getting in touch with or expressing is something we don’t like seeing or
> disclosing about ourselves. We are moving deeper into ourselves, and so our souls are closer to and
> more infused with the goodness of True Nature. Being more deeply in touch with ourselves just feels
> better than not being in touch. Without this characteristic of Holy Love, we would not feel motivated
> to travel any spiritual path. Contact with Being affects us in an agreeable, beneficial, and constructive
> way, making the struggles and difficulties of becoming more conscious worth our time, energy, and
> devotion.
> In the course of working on ourselves, we learn in time that when we stay on the surface of
> ourselves, which is to say when we are identified with and operating from our outer shell—our
> personality—we suffer. The more asleep we are to the reality beneath our shells, the less we feel that
> life is fulfilling, meaningful, and pleasurable. Or, in the language of the enneagram, the more fixated
> we are, the less we partake of the loving nature of reality, for we have lost our connection with Holy
> Love. Our suffering is not the result of being alone or of being in the wrong relationship, is not
> because we don’t have enough money or because we have too much of it, or because of anything of the
> sort. Nor is it because our outer surface doesn’t look as pretty as we think it should or because our
> personality isn’t as pleasant as we think it might be. We suffer because we are living at a distance
> from our depths—it’s as simple as that. The more our souls are infused with Being, the better we feel
> and the better life seems to us, no matter what our outer circumstances happen to be.
> This brings us to another nuance in our understanding of Holy Love, which has to do with its
> universality. The inherent goodness of reality is not localized somewhere—it is implicit in the fabric
> of all that exists. It is not a commodity that exists out there someplace, waiting for us to get in touch
> with it. It does not reside in a particular person, nor is it dependent upon a particular situation. It is not
> a separate something that is outside of ourselves. It is the nature of everything that exists, and we
> don’t see this to the extent that we experience life through the veil of our personality. It may seem that
> the goodness or beneficence of reality is something that comes and goes, that it is something we have
> in one moment and lose in the next, and that is only accessible to us in certain situations and so is
> about those circumstances. For example, it may seem that we only feel the goodness of life when
> someone loves us or gives us attention, or when we get a promotion or a raise. Or, in the early stages
> of a spiritual journey, we may only get in touch with our essential nature and experience ourselves as
> wonderful and lovable when we are meditating or in the presence of our teacher, and so the positivity
> of our nature seems like something that is ephemeral. This is only a stage—eventually we come to see
> that the beauty and wonder of Being is not a something that resides in someone else or even that it is a
> thing inside of us somewhere, but rather is the nature of everything and so is everywhere. From this
> perspective, we see that there is in fact nothing but Being—it is not something we need to acquire or,
> at a certain point, even connect with. The Journey, then, transforms into something else when there is
> no longer the sense of it as a movement from here to there and when we recognize and abide in the
> goodness and splendor of Being.
> Without this perception, we might still perceive that there is benevolence in the universe, but we
> don’t see that it is the nature of everything, including ourselves. When we lose contact with Holy
> Love, we lose contact with its boundlessness, and it seems to us that the goodness of reality can be in
> one place and not in another. So the positive becomes conditional and fleeting—it arises only in
> particular situations and it is here one minute and gone the next. Likewise, one person can appear
> lovable and another not.
> This sense of the restrictiveness and the conditionality of the goodness of life makes possible the
> delusion of Ennea-type Nine, which is the loss of perception of being made of love and so inherently
> lovable. To a Nine, others appear lovable and seem to partake of the benevolence of life, while she
> does not. This is the fundamental perceptual distortion of Ennea-type Nine, upon which rest all the
> characteristics of this type. It is a distortion that might be difficult to see as such, since it is
> fundamental to all personality types. If we consider, however, that the very substance of our bodies
> and our consciousness is the expression and embodiment of Being, whose central characteristic is Its
> positivity, how can we be anything but innately lovable? How can our lovability be determined by how
> our bodies look, who loves us, or how much we have?
> Along with the loss of contact with Essence, then, which as we have seen takes place in gradual
> stages over the first three to four years of life, Ennea-type Nines lose the perception of Holy Love. For
> a Nine, the process of losing contact with her essential nature results in the belief—the fixed cognitive
> perception or fixation—that who she is is not inherently lovable, valuable, significant, meaningful, or
> worthwhile. So the loss of contact with or turning away from Essence is also a disconnection from
> experiencing herself as precious and worthy of all the positive things that life has to offer. She
> experiences herself as outside of the goodness of life, not part of its fabric. This fundamental fixed
> belief is the underpinning of all the resulting mental constructs, emotional affects, and behavioral
> patterns of this type.
> From the perspective of the forces in early life that shaped a Nine’s psyche, her psychodynamics,
> the lack of holding and mirroring of her True Nature in infancy is interpreted by her as meaning that
> who she is fundamentally is not worth being with and attending to. This deduction—albeit at its roots
> a nonconceptual one—arises because of our soul’s inherent knowledge of her inseparability from that
> core: If Being, which is who we fundamentally are, is not held and valued, we interpret this as
> indicating that we are not valuable, lovable, worth being with, and so on. Filtered through a Nine’s
> blindness to Holy Love, the perception—and thus experience—of her childhood is of not having
> received much unconditional love, care, or attention. Whether or not she was physically or
> emotionally neglected, the impression of not being personally attended to is strongly imprinted in
> every Nine’s soul, since what is most real was indeed not sufficiently paid attention to: her essential
> nature. Something almost completely universal—the lack of attunement to True Nature—is thus taken
> very personally by Nines. Although never actually put into words, they come to the conclusion that
> “Because my parents are not attuned to my depths, which is who I am, I must not be important and so
> it is clear that I am fundamentally insignificant.”
> Nines in turn forsake their inner depths, turning their consciousness away from Being in imitation
> of their early caregivers. It is important to note that Being does not go away—it simply slips into the
> unconscious. Since Being is who and what we are, one cannot turn away from it without turning away
> from oneself, so Nines gradually start turning a deaf ear to themselves and expect that the world will
> also. Interestingly enough, the ear is the part of the body associated with this type, and so they not
> only characteristically fail to listen to themselves inwardly but often tune things out and miss what is
> being said.
> The “deafness” of Nines is at heart a loss of attunement to the realm of Essence, as we have seen.
> So just as they believe that they can be to varying degrees negligible and forgettable, they have, with
> losing contact with Essence, forgotten themselves. This self-forgetting, which is the hallmark of this
> ennea-type, manifests from the depths to the outermost surface of the personality: from the forgetting
> of Essence to simple forgetfulness in daily functioning. Self-forgetting basically describes a Nine’s
> relationship to herself. For this reason, on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, which you will find in
> Appendix B, self-forgetting appears at Point Nine. This enneagram refers to each ennea-type’s
> characteristic relationship to what we experience as self—our soul—as discussed in the Introduction.
> With their depths forgotten, an underlying attitude of “What’s the point of paying attention to
> myself? There’s nothing of value in here anyway,” permeates the behavior, thoughts, and feelings of
> Nines. They end up feeling that they are nothing special and that there is nothing remarkable about
> them. The inner is neglected and forgotten, and the outer seems to be all that is worth paying attention
> to. Outer expression and experience appear far more consequential than what is going on internally,
> which in comparison seems insignificant and unimportant. They become more outer rather than inner
> directed, synchronizing with and responding to what is needed by the environment and by others,
> rather than responding to inner promptings. The needs of others drown out their own, which by
> comparison feel less important and of a much lower priority. Their self-importance in time becomes
> based on responding to and serving others rather than themselves.
> In the process, the spiritual ground, which gives our outer expression and functioning meaning and
> significance, is lost, so the outer husk of life becomes a shallow and lifeless shell. This loss of contact
> with the spiritual dimension of ourselves, our essential nature, is of course the situation for those
> identified with the personality, and that means at least 99 percent of humanity. Living a life that is
> more than a shell is beyond the conception of most people, so living the husk of a life and forgetting
> that there is anything more is a cultural given. So part and parcel of becoming a civilized human being
> is this process of becoming like everyone else: losing contact with our depths. This process of human
> adaptation or conditioning, which from a spiritual perspective is one of falling asleep and of selfforgetting,
> is exemplified by this ennea-type.
> When True Nature is not held and reflected back to us, we not only turn away from it, mimicking
> how we are being related to, as we have seen, but we also add interpretations about why this is
> happening. These notions are not conscious or even conceptual at their inception since they are formed
> before we have the capacity to think, but they nonetheless color and flavor the whole of our
> relationship to ourselves. More cognitive beliefs and attitudes about ourselves and the world we
> inhabit, which develop later, are rooted in these preconceptual “interpretations.” For Nines, the
> experience of their deepest nature not being held by the environment is not only interpreted as
> meaning that who they fundamentally are is not worth contacting, is not inherently valuable and
> lovable, and is ultimately forgettable, but also results in the felt sense that there is something
> fundamentally lacking about them. This very painful feeling of lack carries the sense that there is
> something missing, something unformed or undeveloped, something defective, or something
> embryonic that has become twisted and deformed. For Nines, this is the sense of self that surrounds
> the hole where contact with True Nature has been lost, and forms their fundamental sense of
> deficiency. Each ennea-type has a characteristic deficiency state upon which the personality is built,
> but all of them are variations on that of Point Nine: the basic inner sense that something is lacking or
> inadequate about oneself.
> In all the types, this sense of deficiency is the often unconscious basis of our inner picture of
> ourselves—our self-image—which in turn shapes our experience of ourselves. A Nine sees and
> experiences herself as someone who is fundamentally missing some parts, didn’t arrive with all that
> was needed, is lacking something crucial, is stunted or misshapen, as though something basic never
> developed fully or even at all, or perhaps was never there to begin with. There may even be the sense
> for a Nine of her soul being stillborn or dead. Obviously this deeply painful sense of deficiency is a
> reflection of the truth that she is indeed missing something crucial: contact with who she really is
> beyond this self-image, which is based on insufficiency.
> Our self-image does not arise in isolation, as we saw in Chapter 1. Our sense of self, which begins
> to form in infancy and is rooted in the body, is based not only on internal sensations but also develops
> through contact with the environment on the surface of our skin. So our sense of who we are always
> arises in relation to what is other than us, i.e., what is beyond our body’s edges. Our self-image, then,
> exists in counterpoint to an object-image, a conceptual picture of “other.” The other for Nines appears
> to have what they don’t: others arrived with all their parts intact and are inherently lovable and
> valuable. Compared to others, Nines feel acutely inferior: not as good, complete, or worthy. This sense
> may have developed through having had a parent who appeared to the Nine as special and gifted in
> some way, or who simply took up a lot of psychic space because of being highly emotive, mentally
> unstable, or very outgoing. In relation to that parent, she became background, functioning as a
> backdrop. Again, as discussed in the Introduction, it is important to remember that this may not have
> been the main characteristic about that parent or even one that was especially strong. But because of a
> Nine’s particular sensitivity, this was the one that she picked up on and responded to.
> Having had a sibling who appeared more central in the family dynamics, one who was more
> assertive or who had special qualities or special problems, is a common variation. Another is that of
> growing up in a crowd: being one of many children or other relatives in the home, so the Nine ended
> up feeling lost in the shuffle. Her role or function in the family may have seemed like all that
> mattered, and so anything strictly personal about the Nine seemed unimportant and forgotten.
> Regardless of who the object was (or were) that the sense of self arose in relation to, this primary
> relationship forms the template for all subsequent experiences of self and other. In a nutshell, relative
> to other, a Nine feels not only inferior but also inconsequential.
> A Nine develops, then, a sense of invisibility and a deep resignation about ever being center stage
> and loved or valued in her own right—both by others and also within her own consciousness—leading
> to a pervasive self-abnegation. Nines assume that they will not get love and attention, and also that
> they do not deserve it, since they have lost their innate sense of value and worth. This resigned selfabasement
> manifests in many ways: they have great difficulty with attention being focused upon them,
> with taking up their own space and other people’s time, with asking to be seen or heard, much less
> loved, and tend to shun anything that would bring them to the fore or call attention to themselves.
> They melt into the background, rarely expressing themselves in a group. Because reality has a peculiar
> way of conforming to our beliefs about it, even when they do assert themselves and speak up, their
> assumption that they will not be received is often, in fact, confirmed, and they are ignored. It is as
> though they generate a field around them that says, “Don’t pay attention to me—I am not important.”
> They are thus easily overlooked and not considered by others; this reflects and reinforces their basic
> assumption about themselves. Ironically, many Nines are physically imposing, mesomorphic of body
> type—large, round, and sturdy looking.
> Each ennea-type defends against experiencing its core deficiency state because it is incredibly
> painful and because it appears to be the bottom line—the ultimate and unalterable truth about oneself.
> This belief that something is fundamentally lacking or wrong with us, like all of the convictions that
> shape our personality, is not, once again, simply an intellectual idea—it is a felt experience and so
> appears to be the truth. It feels so true that it seems ridiculous even to suggest that it is simply an
> assumption. Because it seems to be reality, the energy of the personality goes into keeping one’s
> consciousness away from this painful sense of deficiency, and all the defenses one uses feel necessary
> and justified. Experiencing it seems as if it would only confirm it, and why question something that
> appears so unshakably true? All of the defensive strategies and defense mechanisms of the personality
> are at their core marshaled against this deficient experience of self.
> Nines defend against their fundamental sense of being deficient and unlovable in a very
> straightforward way: they simply push it out of consciousness. A numbing or deadening of inner
> awareness and a shift of attention from inside oneself to outside seem to be the best ways of dulling
> their inner pain. This lulling of oneself into psychic sleep is the defense mechanism of Point Nine,
> which is called narcotization. Unfortunately, we cannot pick and choose which aspects of inner
> experience we want to render unconscious and which we want to retain, so the result is that much, if
> not all, of the inner life of a Nine fades into unawareness. The narcotizing of self can manifest visibly:
> a Nine’s eyes may look dull, dead, or glazed over. It also manifests behaviorally in the form of a
> predilection for distractions that divert her consciousness away from herself. One Nine I know has to
> have the TV or radio on at all times, even when falling asleep at night, and wears a Walkman
> whenever out for a walk. Burying herself in crossword puzzles, games like Trivial Pursuit, afternoon
> talk shows, the newspaper, or getting lost in trashy novels are other forms of diversions that a Nine
> might use to distract herself.
> What results is a characteristic inner experience of being in a morass, a dense foggy state, in which
> nothing is very defined or discriminated and everything feels murky and diffuse. A lack of vitality and
> vibrancy and a sense of numbness, boredom, deadness, lethargy, and heaviness pervade. Naranjo used
> to describe female Nines as “swamp queens,” which nicely describes the feel of this inner landscape—
> languid and stagnant. It also conveys the feeling tone that is the passion of this ennea-type: indolence,
> as we see on the Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. Characteristic of this marshy inner terrain is
> this indolence, a quality of laziness and stuckness that exerts for this type an inexorable kind of
> gravitational pull. It may take the form of procrastination and lethargy, having difficulty rousing
> herself to accomplish the task at hand, or of doing everything except the one thing that really needs to
> be done.
> Part of the fuzziness of a Nine’s inner terrain is often due to her inability to tell what direction to
> move in or which action needs to be taken. It is like bumping around in the darkness, bumbling along
> following the line of least resistance, rather than clearly perceiving the appropriate course to take and
> following it. An inner sense of chaos and disorder, which may be reflected outwardly in messiness and
> clutter, is the more superficial manifestation of this inner state. What may appear to others as
> procrastination may be a Nine’s need to order what she perceives as the chaos around her and bring
> clarity to her environment before she can settle down to the task at hand, reflecting her attempt to
> come to grips with her inner disarray. The guidance and orientation that only contact with self can
> provide have been tuned out; a Nine’s inner knowing either - doesn’t break the surface of
> consciousness or is ignored.
> This indolent atmosphere, which could also be described as one of laziness and heedlessness, has
> many levels and nuances to it, as we are seeing. The indolence might express itself in an obliviousness
> to what needs attention or action, or if there is a sense that something needs to be done, a lack of
> discrimination or difficulty determining what exactly it is; a difficulty assessing priority of
> importance; and/or losing her focus and contact with herself in the details of the task or inadvertently
> substituting another one for it. A Nine who is facing a crucial deadline on a project, for example,
> might find herself cleaning the entire house or going through all of her files with the initial idea that
> this is necessary to do first so that she can really concentrate on the task, and then becoming so
> absorbed in all the things she finds herself ordering that she forgets the project entirely and runs out of
> time for it. Her difficulty prioritizing what needs to be done reflects her characteristic trouble with
> discrimination and organization—she simply has difficulty discerning what needs to be done and in
> what order to do things. If it is clear what needs to be done, the indolence might show up as simply not
> having the energy for it and just not doing it.
> The indolence characteristically manifests outwardly in Nines as heedlessness about their
> appearance and about diet and exercise (with a resulting tendency to be overweight), as well as in
> other forms of self-neglect. Lacking attunement to their physical and psychic limits, some Nines
> overextend themselves, mostly in the service of others’ needs, to the point of collapse. Other Nines
> underextend, preferring comfort and indulgence to bestirring themselves. Or a Nine might focus on,
> and indeed obsess about, one particular aspect of maintaining her health, like dietary supplements for
> example, while making really poor choices about what she eats and neglecting to exercise. A symptom
> might be focused upon rather than the cause: attention may be lavished on a sore ankle, for instance,
> without associating that difficulty to excess weight or inappropriate shoes.
> Ultimately, however, the central issue of a Nine’s indolence is not related to either outward doing or
> physical neglect. This is an extremely important point to grasp, since it explains why some Nines can
> be workaholics, while others seem to do little with their time. What is personally significant is what is
> most neglected by a Nine, and ultimately her laziness is about paying attention to and cultivating
> contact with what is most real within herself: at its heart, this laziness is fundamentally being
> unconscious to and remaining unconscious to her essential nature.
> As mentioned earlier, a Nine’s characteristic of forgetfulness not only manifests in losing sight of
> her depths—her True Nature—but can also manifest as more superficial absentmindedness. Nines
> tend to be simply forgetful. They don’t remember things, what they need to do slips their minds, and
> they lose track of what they embark upon by becoming easily distracted by irrelevant things. The
> forgetting is at root a Nine’s attempt to dull herself to her inner sense of being unlovable, negligible,
> and valueless; so while it may feel problematic, it is ultimately a defense against what feels
> intolerable to experience. This forgetfulness exacerbates the feeling of disorientation, of lostness in
> the inner morass, and consequently also amplifies the sense of being stuck or paralyzed that Nines
> often feel quite helpless to do anything about.
> This stuckness, which can feel like having her feet embedded in wet cement or, alternatively, of
> sinking into quicksand, is connected with the characteristic inertia of Nines. In physics, inertia is
> defined as “the tendency of a body to resist acceleration; the tendency of a body at rest to remain at
> rest or of a body in motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless disturbed by an external force.”3
> Inertia is not the sole domain of Nines; it is fundamental to the perpetuation of the personality,
> regardless of one’s type. It is a maintaining of our conditioned patterns of thought, feeling, and
> behavior, a preservation of the grooves in the soul, imprinted through experiences in our distant past.
> These patterns form the fabric of the personality, and the inertia that maintains them may feel like a
> leadenness when experientially contacted, weighing us down and dulling our senses.
> In Nines, this inertia typically appears as having great difficulty initiating action or, once moving,
> in changing direction. Like the elephant, the animal associated with Point Nine, they are slow to get
> moving and, once in motion, have a hard time stopping. In other words, once their course is set or
> their routine becomes habitual, these patterns are not easily altered, and Nines obstinately hold to
> them. They can be tenaciously stubborn, digging their heels in and refusing to change their minds or
> their course of action. This manifests most poignantly in a determined clinging that many Nines have
> to their deep sense of being inferior and deficient: often no amount of evidence to the contrary seems
> capable of dislodging this embedded belief.
> Her superego supports her sense of deficiency. Like much else in the inner world of a Nine, it is
> often amorphous and not a clearly differentiated critical and judgmental inner voice. Initially it may
> feel like more of a depressing and minimizing feeling tone, an assertive, although passive, push to
> stay invisible and not take up too much space. Evidence of her superego will be seen in the shame she
> feels about having needs and difficulties, as if they shouldn’t be there, and for having any anger or
> aggression. Her superego demands, in a vague and not too evident way, that she is responsible for
> keeping the environment happy and safe, and pushes her to take care of others. As a child, she might
> feel compelled by her inner demands to befriend the new kid at school or the sick one that the other
> kids ostracize. Often this is a way of minimizing the pain of another so that she will not be reminded
> of her own sense of not being loved or lovable. Her superego pushes her not to upset anyone, to stay
> middle-of-theroad, so that even as a rebellious teenager, she makes sure everyone feels good about
> her. Transitions are difficult and threatening, so Nines tend to avoid any changes in relationships, work,
> life direction, and so on. The universal characteristic in the personality of clinging to the familiar is
> exemplified here. They like stability and support the status quo, resisting change and innovation.
> Preserving what we called in the sixties the “Establishment”—the prevailing sociopolitical order—is
> the domain of Nines. As a whole they tend to be conservative and orthodox, politically and otherwise,
> entrenched in tradition, custom bound, and resistant to change. This is not to say that Nines are never
> revolutionaries, but when they are, they are very doctrinaire, adhering to and supporting their new
> Establishment, becoming in effect conservative radicals.
> It is often difficult for Nines to discriminate what values they personally hold, following instead the
> line of least resistance in conforming to those of their culture or subculture. This is why
> consideration/mechanical conformity appears at Point Nine on the Enneagram of Lies, the enneagram
> charting the characteristic ways each type forsakes its own truth, and which you will find in Appendix
> B. A Nine’s lie is in considering others and not herself, as discussed earlier, and mechanically
> conforming to the prevailing currents. Because of this tendency, Nine-ness is associated with
> bureaucratic and robotic behavior and institutions in which the motions are gone through with little
> personal engagement. Not to make waves, Nines fit in, conforming to the role assigned to them and
> following the program seamlessly.
> They become cogs in a larger wheel, oiling any squeaks by shutting them off from awareness and so
> attending to their niche without complaint. Deadened to their inner world and caught up in outer
> functioning without questioning it, life for a Nine can become institutionalized, mechanical, and
> robotic. The stereotype of the nameless and faceless bureaucrat typifies this quality, buried in red tape
> and busy with paperwork, insisting on protocol even when it makes no sense, with nothing real or
> relevant being accomplished. The U.S. Postal Service and the Internal Revenue Service are frequently
> thought of in this way. At first glance, this robotic tendency may seem at odds with the laziness and
> disorganization mentioned earlier as typifying this type. On closer inspection, we see that a Nine may
> have one area of life in which she is a stickler for detail and fulfills her function seamlessly, but the
> rest of her life may be in a state of disarray, or there simply may not be a rest of her life to speak of.
> Anything personal or individual may be neglected or shunned as unimportant. The versions of
> communism embodied in the former Soviet Union and in China (two of the cultures associated with
> Point Nine) exemplify this perfunctory way of life, in which the individual’s value is derived from
> how smoothly he or she functions in the overall machine of state and in which personal opinion or
> wishes are subsumed in the collective momentum.4
> Mentally a Nine’s inertia manifests as stubbornly holding on to what is familiar and known, and a
> tendency to be dogmatic and opinionated. Once they have landed in a conceptual groove, their minds
> become closed and resistant to influence. Their mental laziness reveals itself in literalmindedness and
> matter-of-factness, taking things at face value rather than being attuned to subtleties. It is also seen in
> losing sight of the idea behind an action, procedure, or policy and simply automatically performing it.
> Set in their ways, obstinate, and inflexible, Nines may be perceived by others as bland, unexciting,
> or undynamic, but the flip side is that they also seem very solid and rocklike: dependable, implacable,
> persistent, and consistent. Rarely erratic or explosive, Nines are steadier than the other ennea-types,
> and give the impression that they can always be counted on—and indeed they usually can be. Since
> their evenness and dependability result from absenting themselves from priority and deriving a sense
> of value and worth from outer activity, these qualities are a mixed blessing at best for a Nine.
> Closely connected to the inertia of Nines is their avoidance of discomfort. Comfort is very
> important to them, and they invest much time and energy into making themselves both physically and
> emotionally comfortable. Their defense mechanism of narcotization discussed earlier is a
> psychological attempt at comfort. Behaviorally they tend to collect things that will make their lives
> superficially more pleasant, pouring through catalogues filled with gadgets to make life run more
> easily and smoothly. Water beds, heated swimming pools, motels, remote controls, and Jacuzzis are
> examples of the kinds of things Nines relish since they reduce physical exertion and thus discomfort.
> Devices and contrivances that promise comfort are part of the quest for diversion that is characteristic
> of Nines, as is their typical love for amusements, pleasantries, trivia, and minutia. Ultimately all of
> the gadgets and entertainments are distractions from their painful sense of deficiency and
> unlovability. This is the pain that must be soothed and anesthetized through diversions and ease.
> Because they rarely rock the boat and try to make others just as comfortable as they would like to
> be, it’s very pleasant to be with Nines as a rule, although you might come away hungry for something
> to chew on or engage with, wondering, Where’s the beef? They seem to be peaceful, untroubled, and
> calm. They are compliant, amicable, cordial, and genial and, for the most part, easy to be with. While
> you may not find out what is really going on inside them, you will feel cared for and soothed.
> Exemplifying this, Ed McMahon, the former Tonight Show sidekick, fulfilled this function in
> counterpoint to Johnny Carson’s more mercurial temperament. Walter Cronkite was for decades a
> calming presence in American homes, reporting on the often turbulent events of the sixties and
> seventies on the CBS televised evening news. Today we have Rosie O’Donnell, actress and talk show
> host who has been dubbed the queen of nice on television in the afternoons. While these last two
> exemplars may seem at odds with the picture of Nines as lazy, it is important to remember that the
> indolence of a Nine is something much deeper than whether or not they outwardly get a task done.
> The most uncomfortable thing to a Nine is conflict, and so they avoid it at all costs, as we see on the
> Enneagram of Avoidances, found in Appendix B. Upsetting the prevailing flow of things, or lack
> thereof, might be uncomfortable, and so it is decisively shunned. Rather than clash with others, they
> appease and placate. They have difficulty confronting others, especially about being overlooked,
> unconsidered, not listened to, and so on, and will often talk themselves out of their ruffled feelings or
> simply distract themselves from feeling hurt rather than risking locking horns with another by
> bringing up a difficulty. In this regard, Lady Bird Johnson comes to mind, serving as a foil for her
> volatile Eight husband, LBJ. Edith Bunker, the television character in the series All in the Family,
> fulfilled the same placating role with her Eight husband, the bigoted and abusive Archie.
> Because keeping the peace is so important, they are good mediators and peacemakers, finding ways
> to smooth things out, which can drift into smoothing things over. Beyond the motivation to maintain
> harmony, they also mediate well because they can see things from many angles and are able to
> understand everyone’s point of view. Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander during
> World War II and two-term U.S. president, exemplifies this Nine-ish forte as we see in the following
> biographical excerpt:
> Eisenhower’s rapid advancement, after a long army career spent in relative obscurity, was not only
> due to his knowledge of military strategy and a talent for organization but also to his ability to
> persuade, to mediate, and to be agreeable. Men from a variety of backgrounds and nationalities,
> impressed by his friendliness, humility, and persistent optimism, liked and trusted him.5
> Nines are said to have the most objective perception of all the types, being able to set aside any
> personal bias and see what is going on around them clearly. This is another dubious blessing, since it
> is based on self-forgetting: What is difficult for them is knowing where they stand and what they feel,
> since their tendency is to be outwardly rather than inwardly attuned. Keeping their perceptions—
> especially critical ones of others—somewhat vague and fuzzy ensures that they will not be hurtful
> toward others, as they assume being sharp and clear would be. Even if they are in touch with what they
> think and feel, they rarely put their thoughts and feelings forward because of the risk of a challenge.
> Psychodynamically this avoidance of conflict may have its roots in not wanting to upset or stand up to
> an inattentive parent for fear of losing what little love and attention they seem to be receiving. The
> laid-back and hang-loose Polynesian culture exemplifies this comfort-loving and conflict-avoiding
> side of Ennea-type Nine.
> As discussed in the Introduction, the personality structure and behavioral patterns of each enneatype
> mimic a particular quality of Being, or state of consciousness, which is called its idealized
> Aspect. This replication can be seen as the soul’s attempt to shape itself into an embodiment of the
> lost Holy Idea. Because the soul has lost contact with her essential roots, this embodiment is of
> necessity a fake. Through this simulation, the soul attempts to recapture the lost Holy Idea, which in
> the case of Ennea-type Nine is the perception that the universe is inherently loving and that, as a
> manifestation of it, she is inherently lovable. The quality of Being that Ennea-type Nine emulates is
> called Living Daylight in the Diamond Approach. It is called this because that is what it feels like
> when we contact this particular presence: warm and life-giving sunlight. We feel held in a sweet and
> gentle presence that is totally loving, beneficent, and well disposed toward us. We feel that we can
> relax and let go, and that we will be held and supported by a universe that is suffused with goodness,
> and that is inherently kind and life affirming. It is the gentle and loving presence that pervades and
> sustains all of creation, which in some traditions is referred to as Cosmic or Divine Love, and in the
> theistic traditions is what is meant by the concept of God.
> The simulation of Living Daylight can be glimpsed in all of the personality traits of Ennea-type
> Nine. As a whole, the cognitive, emotional, and behavioral style of this type is an attempt to be a
> person who is loving, holding, supportive, kind, and gentle in a very unobtrusive and inconspicuous
> way. The stability and solidity, the impartiality and congeniality, the emphasis on comfort and
> harmony that are characteristic of this type all are simulations on the personality level of this
> dimension of reality. Since Living Daylight is the experience of Being as supportive ground, the Nine
> stance in life of unobtrusively staying in the shadows is an important part of this replication.
> Not only does the personality attempt to emulate the idealized Aspect but this quality of Being is
> also idealized in the sense that it looks like the solution to one’s difficulties and deficiencies. Each
> ennea-type, therefore, can be seen as an attempt to have as well as an attempt to become the idealized
> Aspect. That particular state of consciousness will be sought, either directly or through manifestations
> that seem to embody it, whether in the form of another person or an object. So Nines not only attempt
> to “look” like or shape themselves into a facsimile of Living Daylight but also believe that if they
> were loved and held, and if they were treated like an implicit part of the whole (whatever they take
> that to be), their problems would be over. The love and holding, as well as the sense of inclusion that
> they seek, might appear to reside in social or intimate relationships, in having a comfortable and easy
> life, or in cozy pleasantries and diversions.
> The real resolution, however, will not be found in these places. It lies in moving beyond
> identification with the realm of the personality and reconnecting with the realm of Being. This will
> require for a Nine cultivating the virtue associated with this point, action, which we find in Diagram 1
> in the enneagram in the heart region of the figure. As mentioned in the Introduction, the virtue not
> only manifests itself the freer one becomes from identification with one’s personality, but also is what
> is needed for this disidentification to happen. The following is Ichazo’s definition of the virtue of
> action:
> It is essential movement without interference from the mind, arising naturally from the body’s need
> to function in harmony with its environment. Action is the normal attitude of a being in tune with his
> own energy and with the energy of the planet.6
> Real action, then, which is based on authentic harmony and an internal as well as an external
> responsiveness, necessitates for a Nine a radical change of focus. First and foremost, it implies
> becoming present and conscious of what is going on inside herself. It means changing her focus and
> orientation from her actions and interactions to the source out of which functioning arises—her
> consciousness or soul. The more conscious we become of the state of our soul, which is our inner
> experience, and the more we inquire into what is shaping it, the more transparent the shell of the
> personality becomes. Eventually it becomes so thin that we can experience the realms of Being
> beyond it. This is a waking up from the sleep of unconsciousness, and a remembering of the depths
> within that the Nine has forgotten. This is true action, action that is essential in both senses of the
> word.
> Action, in the sense it is used here, is the opposite of the passion of indolence. So rather than
> engaging in nonessential activities—doing things that are distractions or unnecessary—or not doing
> anything at all, real action is the capacity to discriminate what really needs to be done and doing it.
> The more freedom a Nine has from the grip of identification with the personality, the more able she
> becomes to do what is really important. This might mean simply paying attention to her physical or
> emotional needs or, on a deeper level, doing what it takes to make the unconscious—which includes
> the essential realm—conscious.
> The elephant, the animal associated with this point as mentioned earlier, is relevant in connection
> with the virtue of action. In Buddhist iconography, the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra (in Sanskrit) or
> Fugen (in Japanese), who represents spiritual practice as compassion, sits on an elephant throne. This
> symbolizes that true kindness toward oneself is having the steadiness, solidity, patience, and inner
> power—like an elephant—to work on oneself in a committed and determined way.
> For a Nine, this radical shift in focus—from outside of herself to what is going on within—is a huge
> step and is the key to her unfoldment. Taking this step will require questioning some of her basic
> beliefs about herself, most specifically the assumption that she is not worth considering and paying
> attention to. It is a knee-jerk reaction for a Nine to disregard herself and simply to go along with the
> prevailing flow of other people’s desires, preferences, and actions. Throughout her work on herself,
> this tendency to absent herself and overlook herself will arise in ever more subtle ways, and she will
> need to repeatedly notice it and inquire into why she is doing it.
> Making this internal shift—which is really taking action to reverse the inertial pull of her
> personality in keeping her awareness away from her inner life—will require facing her tendency to
> distract herself. There may be endless crises in her life or ceaseless demands at work that seem to
> require her to stay busy juggling things so that she can’t pay attention to herself. She will have to be
> willing to let all the plates that she keeps spinning fall in order to make herself primary in her own
> consciousness. Blaming others and life in general for her difficulties and trying to get satisfaction on
> external terms will have to be seen as the diversion that it is. She will have to face her tendency to
> seek gratification and answers outside of herself, a tendency encapsulated by the “seeker” on the
> Enneagram of Traps, which we find in Appendix B. The traps are the characteristic ways each type
> distracts their attention from the real issue. She will have to pay attention to what is going on inside
> rather than staying focused on what is happening outside, no matter how enticing keeping all those
> balls in the air seems to be.
> Her superego vigilantly wants to keep this shift in attention from happening, however, so she must
> defend against her inner attacks on herself just to have the space to pay attention to herself. Her
> superego wants to protect her at all costs from coming into conflict with others, which looks like the
> inevitable result if she pays attention to her own desires, feelings, and inner promptings. It berates her
> and tells her to be good and not make waves by going along with the prevailing external flow, cautions
> her against making too big a deal about herself, and admonishes her that taking up too much space
> might be dangerous. To defend against these attacks, her desire to know who she is beyond her
> indolent shell will have to become stronger than her desire for comfort. This is a reciprocal process, as
> the more she gets in touch with her essential self, the more her inner strength will rally to defend her
> soul. She will discover that true ease and comfort reside in Being and not in indolently forgetting
> herself.
> Really grappling with her habitual tendency to ignore and neglect herself and defending against her
> superego will rapidly confront a Nine with her profound sense of worthlessness, valuelessness, and
> unlovability. Deeper still, she will encounter the felt sense that she is fundamentally lacking and
> inadequate, the deficiency state at the core of her personality. She will need to unearth, examine, and
> inquire into why she believes this about herself and how this central belief became the foundation of
> her sense of self. As she allows and feels into this extremely painful sense of inadequacy and of
> inferiority, memories both conceptual and preconceptual that gave rise to and supported this sense of
> herself will surface and need to be digested. The resulting object relations—her inner sense of self and
> other—will need to be seen in operation externally, and she will need to bring to consciousness these
> internal constructs.
> Simultaneously taking real action will mean connecting with and fully inhabiting her body. Rather
> than skipping over and minimizing her inner sensations, she will need to become attuned to them and
> pay attention to them. Making deep experiential contact with her body will bring up all of the years of
> neglect, and probably much grief will be experienced. The more that she fully abides in her body and
> focuses her attention within it, the more she is at the same time contacting as well as supporting a
> sense of her own inherent value and self-worth. Also, the more she pays attention to her body, the
> more she will begin noticing and listening to her emotions, and the sharper and clearer her mind will
> become. She will increasingly feel more alive and more a part of life. Eventually, as she keeps
> focusing her awareness within, what she senses will be the entirety of her soul.
> The more present she becomes, the more she will become aware of her absence of contact with her
> essential nature, which may feel like a huge hole in her soul. As she allows herself to feel into this
> hole and to be curious about it, rather than escaping from it into sleepiness or distractions, she will
> find that what she had experienced as a deficient emptiness changes. As she progressively opens to it
> and explores how it really feels, the negativity and feelings of lack will transform. The emptiness
> becomes a spaciousness, and over time all of the qualities of Being will gradually arise in her
> consciousness as she makes this inner descent over and over again. For a long time, it will seem to her
> that Being comes and goes, until a sort of critical mass is reached in her soul, and her identity shifts
> from her personality to Being. Then Being will feel like the ground of her experience, and she will see
> that it was she who came and went, losing and gaining consciousness of what was there all the time.
> Eventually, the shell of her personality will become more and more transparent to Being, and as this
> happens, she will find herself experiencing, embodying, and manifesting the quality of Being she has
> tried to emulate, Living Daylight. Her inner experience will gradually change from feeling deficient,
> unloved, unimportant, and overlooked to feeling sustained, taken care of, and inseparable from a
> beneficent universe filled with love and blessings. When this happens, she will at long last fully know
> herself to be truly a manifestation and embodiment of the love of the Divine.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> _Did you draw that?_


It's a stick figure with a hat and a table D8

I still need to research into this ennegram biz. I vaguely remember there are nine fears and it describes why you do stuff while MBTI describes how


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> It's a stick figure with a hat and a table D8
> 
> I still need to research into this ennegram biz. I vaguely remember there are nine fears and it describes why you do stuff while MBTI describes how


Hmm. Hmm. Trying to think how to start you off. Have you taken the PerC Enneagram test?

Edit: @Curiphant http://www.enneagramquiz.com/quiz.html

Of course this one always tests me as 2-5-9 which I am not, but eh.


----------



## Greyhart

Finished reading type 7. Basically "dead inside but aggressively optimistic outside"



> In keeping with the Seven’s predisposition to use his intellect as his chief defense, then, he lives primarily from his mind rather than from his emotions or his direct experience. His mind is ceaselessly active, exemplifying what the Buddhists call “monkey mind”—the mind in constant activity, swinging from branch to branch, as it were—well above the ground. The monkey, fittingly enough, is the animal associated with Point Seven. Cognition to a great extent replaces action for him, and he is constantly generating ideas and plans.











Lots of monkey metaphors.

Also


> Idealization certainly has a place in the modus operandi of a Seven, not so much as a function of narcissism, as Naranjo suggests, in which self or other are held in exaggerated esteem. As I see it, narcissism is not central to this ennea-type in particular, so neither is idealization in the strict sense in which it is used clinically.* Any ennea-type can have a narcissistic tendency, just as any type can have a predominantly schizoid or borderline skew to his structure, no matter how healthy his ego happens to be.* Those with schizoid leanings are shy and timid, and tend to isolate themselves from close contact behind distancing boundaries. Those with borderline tendencies feel amorphous and undifferentiated, have difficulty setting boundaries, and tend to fall apart under pressure. While the former may sound Five-ish and the latter Nine-ish, anyone of any ennea-type can have these structural orientations. Idealization in Sevens appears more globally, as a predisposition to see things in a positive light and to be idealistic and optimistic about the world and life in general.





alittlebear said:


> Hmm. Hmm. Trying to think how to start you off. Have you taken the PerC Enneagram test?
> 
> Edit: @Curiphant http://www.enneagramquiz.com/quiz.html
> 
> Of course this one always tests me as 2-5-9 which I am not, but eh.


Gives me 7w6, 3w4, 8w7.


----------



## Immolate

The 5 description was so embarrassingly accurate I'm not even going to point out what applies because I'll just betray myself. I betrayed myself just admitting that. I feel so exposed, PerC.

[Edit] Test gives me same as signature hmmm


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Hmm. Hmm. Trying to think how to start you off. Have you taken the PerC Enneagram test?
> 
> Edit: @Curiphant Comprehensive Enneagram Quiz
> 
> Of course this one always tests me as 2-5-9 which I am not, but eh.


5w4, 1w9, 4w5


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> HELSINKI? REALLY?? Fuck global warming. I still remember proper white snowy Decembers we had in 90s. Not it's sludge until mid Jan and then snow until mid April.


I was one of those conspiracy theorists who denied global warming until I realized how stupid that was of me to ever believe?


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> Peonies are nice. I'm definitely a white rose though. I don't often like white but when it comes to roses, much nicer than red.
> 
> 
> Well it certainly won't be in retail - more likely an office somewhere, in admin or as part of a communications or marketing team. It's also about a year away so I guess I have time to think about what I want to do.
> 
> 
> Thankfully I do remember numbers. I'd probably revise basic stuff if I was to go back over. Especially if I do it with the boyfriend, who prefers to make travelling as spontaneous and difficult as possible.
> 
> 
> Ah that's disappointing.  How about practising on somewhere like Duolingo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah slush is gross. I thought moving to the north pole would mean lots of snow but I haven't had much luck so far... first year I was here, my town had a rare "black winter" (no snow)... boohiss.
> 
> From what I've seen of @_shinynotshiny_'s posts I don't see an 8 fix. I'm wondering 1w9 too - seems more detached than 1w2, seeing as you don't seem to want to fix people?


Peonies are okay. I like other flowers more though. White roses are really nice :ghost:

Ah, that should be a lot better then. Marketing was okay when I was doing an internship in it, but I was very limited by a lack of knwoledge of the industry, so mostly got stuck researching academics.

Oh fun. I always prefer to plan a bit and get mentally prepared before going travelling (I find it stressful, but enjoy it once I'm there). Basics are usually quite nice to go over. Good luck!

I will definitely look that site up :ghost: Thank you!
(Also that comic is amazing.)

Nooo, the North Pole would be so, so cold... Very beautiful though. No snow is almost worse than slush. I think there was some snow a couple of years ago, but not much.

Yeah, I was wondering between 8w9 and 1w9, because both can look similar on the surface, but have very different motivations/fears.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> You? I mean send me some of that soft-heartedness.


How I imagine alittlebear in a two minute messy sketch. The proportions are outrageously realistic.


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> Yeah I just put the video's length down to Ne. I tend to ramble until I get self-conscious, so if I were a bit confident I would probably have no problem making a half-hour video!
> 
> I know I'm very quiet in situations I'm uncomfortable in. Generally those situations tend to involve a lot of people. So unless someone's really close to me, they only see me say a few words. I guess that's probably true for a lot of introverts.


For what it is worth I talk a lot in class. Like teachers stop calling on me because they want to make other students participate. I forget my self-consciousness when I get excited about ideas, even if I'm in a room full of people. Not sure if that points to extrovert or not?



> Yeah "small talk" for me is polite chit-chat meant to demonstrate that you care about the other person, even if you don't. Once the conversation actually becomes interesting to me, I stop thinking of it as small talk.
> 
> I'm always confused by the amount of people who claim to hate small talk, and yet it's so persistent? Is it that most people hate it yet put that dislike aside because they feel like they have to do it anyway?


While I think @Greyhart has a point with it setting boundaries, I do kind of wonder what would happen if we all just decided to dispense with small talk.



Greyhart said:


> I
> You seemed very Ne bubbly. My INFP friend goes Ne bubbly around me but it's still... lower key-er.














> @shinynotshiny I still think Ni or you tbh :S


Agreed.



> Indecision... I can be very indecisive if either everything looks good or nothing looks good. If something just stands out from the rest right away I grab on to it instantly. But often there's too much going on and I want to split in 100 pieces and follow everything.


Same. I think the thing is that low-Ne indecision comes from a more fearful place and higher-Ne indecision comes from the abundance of possibilities and seeing the pros and cons for everything?



> I've collected links for Ti and Fi
> 
> These Fi posts are from INFPs 1 2 3
> 
> Ti 1 2 3 4 (Ti describing an image) 5 (and all the way down)


Ooo thanks for sharing these.



Greyhart said:


> MBTI as Flowers - Funky MBTI in Fiction
> I'm moderately peeved that ENFP "Sincerity" but ENTP "Distrust". Is it like ENTP's distrust or distrust in ENTP? Lavender is freaking great, though.


I think it has to do with the fact that ENTPs are questioners. Lavender is lovely.

@hoopla I think ISFJ fits you well.

@shinynotshiny http://personalitycafe.com/type-1-forum-reformer/39225-enneatype-1-wings.html

I don't really see 8 for you. Are you comfortable expressing anger? I think it is more likely that 1w? is your gut fix. I don't really see reason to doubt 5 as your core. 5w6 seems you.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> How I imagine alittlebear in a two minute messy sketch. The proportions are outrageously realistic.



beautiful perfect all the love


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> 3 makes sense for you I think. Don't rush it. Ennea is much digging. Like I had to admit I am pseudo-ADHD because I can't stand thinking about bad stuff. It was hard.
> 
> @ElliCat OMG THAT COMICS STRIP XD I wonder if I'd have easier time with these languages since my 2 main already have 6 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case affected by gender, number and time.
> 
> I didn't see real snowy New Year in this decade.


Oh no soul searching. 

Do you recommend reading through the twenty seven tritypes?


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Greyhart said:


> @_Blue Flare_ could you post type 2 for my friend?


Here it is, went to lunch so couldn't post it before xD


* *





Twos, like their Four sisters, are emotive and dramatic, and are preoccupied with their relationships
with others. Their need for love and approval is extreme—they feel dependent upon it—and in order
to get it, they try to please and play to the object of their affection, fawning over and excessively
praising them. Hence the name of this type, Ego-Flattery. The disproportionate value they place on
those they admire and want to be loved by is their deepest form of flattery. An image type, Twos want
to be seen as loving, generous, kind, empathic, and above all, “there” for others. Their image, then, is
of being a lovable person, and they will go to great lengths to convince others that they really are.
Because of this, they have difficulty saying no to another’s request, and will override their own
feelings and pragmatic constraints in order not to disappoint others. The extremes that Twos go to in
an effort to impress others about what wonderful people they are belies their inner sense of not being
worthy of love.
Ingratiating themselves and being helpful, they try to make themselves indispensable. Rather than
ask directly for what they want from others—especially affection— they give it and tokens of it with
the expectation that the other will reciprocate. Hidden strings are thus attached to all of a Two’s
giving—and Twos can be extremely generous with their time, resources, and even their bodies. If the
other does not fulfill his end of the unexpressed bargain, Twos can become masters of guilt tripping.
Presenting themselves with a veneer of false humility, beneath the surface Twos suffer from a prideful
self-inflation, feeling themselves to be special and, like Fours, entitled to singular treatment. While
pride infuses much of a Two’s behavior, it is nonetheless compensatory for low self-esteem.
Turning to the Holy Idea associated with this type, there are two names for it: Holy Will and Holy
Freedom. We explored in Chapter 4 when discussing the Holy Idea of Point Three how the universe is
a conscious living presence in a constant state of movement, change, and unfoldment. We also saw
that its functioning is not random; its dynamism follows organic and natural laws and principles. All
that occurs is part of this continuous unfoldment, like the changing patterns in one endlessly vast
fabric. We saw that each of us is one part of this immense fabric, each of our lives forming a changing
design within it. Or, to use the analogy we used in discussing Holy Law, we are each like a drop of
water in a great ocean, our own movements inseparable from the continual undulations of that
enormous and endless sea. Holy Will takes this understanding of the dynamism of the universe one
step further, and focuses on the force behind its movements, which has a directionality and an
intelligence implicit in its momentum. There is a unified will, in other words, in the functioning of the
universe.
Everything that happens is an expression of Holy Will, from the birth of a star in a distant corner of
the Milky Way to your hand turning a page of this book. In theistic terms, everything that occurs is
God’s Will. God’s Will is not something mysterious or removed from us—it is expressed in what is
occurring right now and what will occur in the next moment, in - every corner of the universe. Even
though human actions may be out of synch with Being, from a nondualistic perspective even those
events are part of God’s Will. Everything that happens, then, is what God wants to have happen.
Whatever thoughts are going through your mind in response to what I am saying, whatever feelings
you might be having, the impetus to go get a glass of water and look out the window are all God’s
Will manifesting through you right now. If everything is a part of Being, then everything that
transpires everywhere—including within ourselves—must be part of Its unfoldment and therefore
inspired by Its momentum and intelligence. We may not experience ourselves as an indivisible part of
Being, and so may not perceive that everything that occurs within our psyches and within our lives is
part of the will of Being, but that does not change this fundamental truth. All it means is that our
perception is filtered through the separatist lens of the personality, and so our vision is cloudy and we
are not seeing reality clearly.
You might argue that wars and murders and all of the other destructive things that happen cannot
possibly be God’s Will, but if you perceive reality from its most fundamental level, the picture cannot
be otherwise: if the ultimate nature of everything and everyone in the universe is Being, and everyone
and everything is made up of It and so inseparable from It, then it is impossible for anything that
happens to be other than part of the momentum of Being—part of the manifestation of God’s Will, in
other words. Cataclysms and natural disasters only seem not to be part of God’s Will if we take a
subjective position about them and decide that they are not good things. Human behavior that is
hurtful, insensitive, and negative may seem bad to us, but it is nonetheless emanating out of souls
whose ultimate nature is Being, even if they are not functioning in harmony with It. So their actions,
too, can only be part of God’s Will. Additionally, it is a huge presumption to decide that an event is
bad and should not be occurring, since if we could see the bigger picture that encompasses the future
we might see that the event actually has a beneficial function in the long run—and that long run might
be well beyond our lifetimes. That presumption derives from the pride of the personality, a key feature
of this type, as we shall see.
As in our discussion of Holy Perfection, the Holy Idea of Point One, I want to clarify that I am not
condoning or excusing all of the hurtful and malicious ways that humanity treats its fellow members,
nor am I saying that such behavior should not be mitigated and punished. When our view is informed
by seeing life without the veil of the personality—when we see things objectively, in other words—we
see that since most of humanity lives on the surface of themselves, out of touch with their inner
depths, such behavior is inevitable and needs to be curtailed and controlled. To say, however, that such
things should not happen does not make sense—they are a natural consequence of humanity’s
estrangement from its depths. Also, what we consider evil behavior is simply behavior rooted in
ignorance of how things really are. Rather than destructiveness estranging us from the Divine, it is an
expression of our estrangement, which has nothing to do with the underlying presence of that
dimension of existence. The solution to human destructiveness does not lie in trying to regulate or
eradicate it but rather with connecting to a dimension within ourselves in which such behavior does
not make any sense.
Just as it is an immense presumption to assume that what is happening externally should not be
happening, so it is also an immense presumption to assume that what we are experiencing is not what
we are supposed to be experiencing: that we should not be angry at our partner or unsympathetic
toward our best friend, for instance, or that we should be more open and enlightened and not caught in
some emotional state or other. Out of this kind of evaluation of our experience we then set about
trying to manipulate ourselves so that our experience is otherwise. This propensity to be constantly
tinkering with what is going on with us is one of the characteristics of the personality. From the
perspective of Holy Will, everything that we experience and that happens in our lives is what is
supposed to happen. As Almaas says,
You try to relax, you try to quiet your mind, you try to make yourself feel better or make yourself
feel worse. You are always interfering, trying to make something happen other than what is actually
happening. You can only do this if you believe you have your own separate world and you can make
things in it happen the way you want, while really, it is not your choice at all. You are alive today not
because you want to be, but because the universe wants you to be. If you experience anger today, it’s
because the universe chooses to. If you experience love today, it’s because the universe decides to.
This “choosing” on the part of the universe is not the same as predestination. Predestination
implies that there is a plan spelled out somewhere in which everything that is going to happen has
already been determined. Here, we are talking about a universe that is intelligent and creative, where
what is going to happen in the next moment cannot have been planned because it’s going to come out
of this moment, rather than out of some plan written at the time of creation. So from this perspective
there is no predestination, but there is also no free will.1
When we perceive reality from this perspective, we know ourselves to be participants in the Holy
Will of the universe. We know that each of our lives is an expression of God’s Will. When we are in
alignment with this reality, we know that we are being moved rather than being the mover. Moving
with the current of what is happening both inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves is what the
other name for this Holy Idea, Holy Freedom, means. Holy Freedom is the understanding that we’re
only free when we do not resist the flow of what is—when we do not resist God’s Will. What we call
free will is choosing to align with what is or to resist it, and in time we see that only by surrendering
to what is are we truly free.
Holy Freedom, then, is Holy Will perceived from within our human experience. Holy Freedom
means seeing that your personal will and the will of the universe are inseparable. Rather than needing
to assert what you want or manipulating reality to conform to how you think it ought to be, which is
the will of the personality and a central characteristic of Ennea-type Two, when you perceive through
the lens of Holy Freedom you understand that real freedom is being able to surrender to the flow of
what is happening, both inwardly and outwardly. Ultimately the more you perceive reality objectively,
the more clearly you see that even the notion of having your own personal will is a delusion of the
personality. If each of us is a cell in the body of the universe, and that body is moving and changing
organically, it only makes sense that each of us must be part of that unfoldment and the momentum—
the will—behind it. Our personal momentum and direction and that of the larger body of which we are
a part can only be inseparable—it cannot be otherwise. Freedom is not one cell trying to do its own
thing and pushing to have things go the way it wants—again a characteristic of Twos—but rather
every cell knowing that it is participating in the momentum of the Whole and going along with that
movement.
Even the terms surrender and go along with are inaccurate if we are to understand Holy Freedom
completely, since they imply a separate someone who gives up her will and acquiesces to the flow of
the universe. While it feels that way from within the veils of the personality, this is not how things
really are: the notion of a separate will is an illusion, since none of us is inherently separate from the
oneness of Being and, hence, of the direction in which it is unfolding. As Almaas says regarding Holy
Freedom,
The issue of getting one’s own way is a big one for the personality, and the thought of surrendering
to God’s will may seem to involve giving up your own will. However, if you are sincere and truthful
with yourself, and you stay with your experience without trying to change it in any way, you find out
that having your own way is really a matter of surrendering to your inner truth. Your way is following
the thread of your own experience. It is not a matter of choosing or not choosing it; your way is
something that is given to you. It is the road you are walking on, the landscape you are traveling
through. You discover that it is a huge relief not to feel that the territory you are crossing should be
different than exactly how it is for you.2
Within our personal perspective, Holy Will points to the fact that, if unhampered, our souls have an
inherent gravitational pull toward contacting the depths within. This is to say that the human soul
longs to reconnect with and understand the deepest levels of reality. The need to know, to make
conscious everything from the laws of nature to the functioning of our bodies to our inmost Spirit, is
an irrepressible drive within us. Mankind has struggled from the beginning with trying to understand
what we are about and what life is about, and has always had a concept of the transcendent, the Divine,
of what we call God. Within each of us, then, is a drive to know who we really are. Our souls have a
drive to connect with, know, and live the innermost nature of what we are. We have an innate drive to
actualize ourselves, to live our human potential fully, which if allowed takes us to deeper and deeper
levels of reality beyond the subjective, beyond the personality, beyond the separate self.
For someone who is an Ennea-type Two, losing touch with Being in early childhood also means
losing the awareness that she is part of the ongoing flow of the whole universe. There develops a sense
of being cut off from the unfoldment of reality, and the sense that she is not an inseparable part of it,
which she might feel initially in relation to her mother or family, and later more globally. Rather than
experiencing herself as a cell in the larger body of the universe whose functioning is intrinsic and
important to the functioning of the whole, she feels herself to be peripheral and unimportant. Lost is
the sense that she has a place and a purpose in life in her own right, and so lost is the sense of inner
momentum and direction. Personal development and unfoldment as her natural human potential and
driving force become replaced with the sense of being cast out by the universe, left without direction
in some backwater. This is her fixation, her fixed cognitive belief about how things are. (On Diagram
2, we see that the phrase for Ennea-type Two’s fixation given by Ichazo is flattery. This refers to a
Two’s solution to her sense of disconnection from God’s Will: playing to others.)
Lost is the perception of the intelligence and directionality behind what occurs, and so she feels that
she cannot trust that the way things are going is okay, and must make things happen the way she
thinks they ought to be. Not only does she lose a sense of personal purpose and of direction but she
also loses the sense that the universe is inherently supportive of her. She develops the conviction that
she is a separate person, unloved and rejected by Being; and lacking an inner sense of inherent purpose
and connection with the cosmic Will, she must take things into her own hands and make things
happen. Lacking a perception of being part of God’s Will, in other words, she takes on that function
and imitates it through becoming willful. She imposes her individual will on reality within and
without and tries to make it conform to how she thinks it ought to be through manipulating it.
Fundamentally she is trying to create a sense of direction, momentum, purpose, and support which she
has lost contact with in the process of losing contact with her essential nature. Lost is her trust and
perception of her own essential Will, the momentum of her soul, and so she feels she must manipulate
reality and herself to survive.
Her inner sense is one of flatness, a lack of dimensionality and of depth. Hence the nickname of this
type, Ego-Flat. It is as though there were an inner glass ceiling, a limit to the depths she can contact
within herself. Without perception of the support of Being and convinced that her soul does not have
an inherent gravitational momentum toward this realm that she has become estranged from, salvation
must therefore come through others. She turns her gaze to them for that missing sense of a foundation,
an underpinning, a mainstay. The door to her depths seems to lie in making intimate contact with
others, and in this crucial assumption we can see the overlay of her early relationship with mother,
which we will look at shortly. Her inner orientation is focused outward on others whom she tries to
please since she feels dependent on them to connect with herself, and her inner states ascend and
plummet depending on the quality of her contact with them. This dependency is the central
psychological orientation of Twos.
This dependent orientation rests on the Two’s loss of contact with and loss of value for her inner
process. She rejects her inner world and her own experience, mimicking her unconscious sense of
having been rejected by the universe. What she is experiencing is not what is supposed to be
happening, and seems much less important, valid, and interesting than what some valued other is
experiencing. There is no sense that she is being propelled to any place of significance—or indeed any
place at all—by anything within herself, and so she must attach herself to the momentum of someone
else. Rather than being moved to actualize her potential, then, she is driven to connect with some
special other.
The vicissitudes in her early interactions with her mother are filtered through her sensitivity to Holy
Will, and the result is the sense that who she really is was not attended to and her real needs were not
met. Her needs and wants seem subordinate to mother’s will—who gives and withholds nourishment
according to her own timetable, and the inevitable lack of complete attunement translates in the
preconceptual language of the soul into the sense that mother does not love her and rejects who she is.
The Two is acutely sensitive to rifts in attunement, and the impression left on her soul is that mother’s
needs are more important than hers. What develops is the sense of not being centrally important as a
person and of her needs being secondary to those of mother and later to those of all significant people
in her life. Her function becomes satisfying their needs, and she loses touch with the potential for her
own unfoldment as a person.
Whether a Two’s mother was in actuality more self-centered than the mothers of other types or not,
the imprint left on a Two’s soul is that mother is self-absorbed and so not fully there for her, not fully
available or loving. The Two comes to believe that since she could not capture mother’s love and
attention, she is not inherently lovable and must therefore manipulate to get love, and her soul
becomes oriented toward that pursuit. From one angle, all of the Two’s subsequent personality traits
can be seen as efforts to catch mother’s attention and as seductions to win her love in an attempt to
heal this wound in her soul. Her focus becomes, then, to make herself lovable and loved.
Often in the history of a Two is the sense of growing up in the shadow of an idealized parent who
imposed his or her will on the Two—a parent who was the focus of attention and to whom the Two
had to subordinate herself and had to please. This may have been the mother, but often is the father,
and this pattern repeats in later life as the Two attempts to become connected with a prestigious and
prominent partner. There is often in the history of Twos the sense of having been rejected by the
mother and of being the father’s favorite, but in many cases there is the sense of being both parents’
most beloved child. In this lies one of the paradoxes of Twos: while often being the preferred child of
one or both parents, Twos nonetheless feel rejected. This is probably because in the Two’s soul, her
value in the family seemed to have come through the role she played, the image she presented, the
things she accomplished, rather than from her real self.
Regardless of the details of her history, more than anything a Two wants to be loved. Reconnecting
with the flow of the universe is sought through merger with another. In this, we see the idealized
Aspect of this point, the quality of love called Merging Gold in the Diamond Approach. This is the
kind of love we feel when we are in love with someone—that orgasmic sense of melting in ecstatic
union with our beloved, of being enveloped in a blissful cocoon of oneness. The feeling is the stuff of
romantic legends: a rapture of oneness, complete fulfillment in which all separateness is gone, and we
feel dissolved in a golden puddle of bliss. There are no boundaries between us and our beloved, no
sense of where we begin and the other ends. We are completely caught up in this ecstatic love,
galvanized and electrified by it, enthralled in the elation of this sense of profoundly intimate
connection. This Essential Aspect is central to the devotional religious and spiritual paths in which the
goal is letting go of the sense of separate self, the ego, through merging with the Divine in blissful
union.3
This state of being in love evokes our inner state when we were approximately one to six or eight
months old, when our sense of self was fused with our mother, a developmental phase Margaret
Mahler has called symbiosis. During this period, the infant’s predominant experience seems to be that
of being one with mother, and the feeling state is of a sweet, adoring, blissful kind of in-loveness.
Mothers during this period usually feel inseparable from their child and enraptured by him or her. The
sense for both is of being deeply intimate with each other in a merging that feels like ecstatic union.
Being and mother are indistinguishable during those early months, and so this earliest relationship
with another feels inextricably linked in the soul of a Two to union with her depths. The imprint of
this symbiotic relationship, then, leaves the Two with the conviction that union with Being happens
through union with another person.
The psychoanalyst Karen Horney, probably herself a Two, has written eloquently about three types
who she has at different points called those who move toward, against, and away from others; or selfeffacing,
expansive, and resigned types—which correspond very closely to Ennea-types Two, Eight,
and Five respectively. About the type that moves toward others, which corresponds to Ennea-type
Two, she says:
Erotic love lures this type as the supreme fulfillment. Love must and does appear as the ticket to
paradise, where all woe ends: no more loneliness; no more feeling lost, guilty, and unworthy; no more
responsibility for self; no more struggle with a harsh world for which he feels hopelessly unequipped.
Instead love seems to promise protection, support, affection, encouragement, sympathy,
understanding. It will give him a feeling of worth. It will give meaning to his life. It will be salvation
and redemption. No wonder then that for him people often are divided into the haves and have-nots,
not in terms of money and social status but of being (or not being) married or having an equivalent
relationship. . . . To love, for him, means to lose, to submerge himself in more or less ecstatic feelings,
to merge with another being, to become one heart and one flesh, and in this merger to find a unity
which he cannot find in himself. His longing for love is thus fed by deep and powerful sources: the
longing for surrender and the longing for unity.4
Awakening out of the sleep of ego, then, is sought by Twos through transcendent romantic love.
Like Sleeping Beauty, the Two’s life feels suspended until she is rescued by the love of that special
Someone. Wealth, power, and success are all fine, but what she really wants—and feels that she can’t
fully be alive without—is passionate love. The Two’s fairy tale is that if she receives enough support
through being loved, she will be able to be fully herself. Love will set her soul free, and in this we see
one aspect of the personality’s distortion of Holy Freedom. Her will is projected onto others, who can
give or withhold from her the support of love and thus freedom. True freedom is being yourself—fully
being your real self, which is who you are beyond your personality, your historical self. For a Two,
freedom is lost in projecting her will and support onto others, rather than realizing them within
herself. From being centered in herself, the Two becomes centered in and thus dependent upon others,
which is a far cry from real liberation. Freedom that depends on the quality of relationship with
another is not freedom at all, since it is completely conditional. Somewhere deep in the soul of a Two,
she knows this, and this is probably what is behind her inevitable resentment toward those she feels
dependent upon, claiming that they are limiting her freedom. Feeling limited by others upon whom
she feels dependent, and attempting to become free of them rather than of her dependency, describes
her trap of freedom, as we see on Diagram 9.
Twos are not global in their dependency. In addition to evaluating others based upon their
relationship status, as Horney describes, Twos like Fours divide people into those they consider
superior and those they consider inferior, the elite and the peons, the special ones and the hoi polloi.
This is her lie, false valuation, as we see on Diagram 12. The special ones are those at the pinnacle of
the Two’s culture, subculture, or social group, and it is these who matter to her. She can detect them
with her inner Geiger counter and is drawn to them like a moth to a flame. The archetypal groupie and
camp follower, she plays to those she considers important and attempts to seduce them into caring
about her. Her idealization of those she considers special is her highest form of flattery, and hence the
name of this type, Ego-Flattery, as mentioned at the beginning of this chapter. Those she considers
unimportant are expendable to her.
Some Twos do not appear dependent, and in fact go out of their way to demonstrate how little they
care about the affection and opinion of others and how autonomous they are. Rather than being truly
independent, they are counterdependent. Instead of playing to some prominent other, they woo others
into paying court to them. Self-important and regal in their demeanor, such Twos tend to treat others
as subservient and inferior. There will, however, be someone in a counterdependent Two’s life who
she feels dependent upon, whether she can admit it consciously or not. And whether overtly dependent
or counterdependent, the referent is nonetheless the other.
Her central preoccupation, then—indeed her obsession—is the quest for romantic love, and the
emphasis here is clearly on the word quest. While her professed wish is having the object of her desire
reciprocate her love, what actually happens in the life of a Two contradicts this: it never quite works
out the way she envisions it, and she always feels rejected to greater or lesser extents. It is difficult, if
not impossible, to idealize and be obsessed with someone you are in day-to-day relationship with, and
this is one of the reasons Twos unconsciously seek out those who will always be a bit out of reach.
Horney describes and explains the object of desire in the type of obsessive relationships Twos are
prone to, which she descriptively calls “morbidly dependent”:
Morbidly dependent relations are initiated by the unfortunate choice of a partner. To be more
accurate, we should not speak of choice. The self-effacing person actually does not choose but instead
is “spellbound” by certain types. He is naturally attracted by a person of the same or opposite sex
who impresses him as stronger and superior. Leaving out of consideration here the healthy partner, he
may easily fall in love with a detached person, provided the latter has some glamour through wealth,
position, reputation, or particular gifts; with an out-going narcissistic type possessing a buoyant selfassurance
similar to his own; with an arrogant-vindictive type who dares to make open claims and is
unconcerned about being haughty and offensive. Several reasons combine for his being easily
infatuated with these personalities. He is inclined to overrate them because they all seem to possess
attributes which he not only bitterly misses in himself but ones for the lack of which he despises
himself. It may be a question of independence, of self-sufficiency, of an invincible assurance of
superiority, a boldness in flaunting arrogance or aggressiveness. Only these strong, superior people—
as he sees them—can fulfill all his needs and take him over.5
Graphic depictions of such morbidly dependent relationships appear in Somerset Maugham’s novel
Of Human Bondage and in the movie about Victor Hugo’s daughter, The Story of Adele H. In the latter,
Adele Hugo became obsessed with a man who had barely exchanged two words with her, and
unbeknownst to him she followed him doggedly from seaport to seaport. Such relationships—or
infatuations, more accurately—can only be frustrating, and protestations to the contrary, it is
frustration rather than gratification that Twos unconsciously seek out. Again like Fours, once the
conquest has been achieved, the object’s value drops precipitously, as though saying, “Anyone who
loves me must not be worth being in relationship with.” This is also known as the Groucho Marx
syndrome: “I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would have me.” Part of what is behind
this frustrating pattern is that truly being intimate with another brings the risk of being exposed as
unlovable and of being rejected. Another part is that truly being loved, and letting the love in, would
mean having to give up the sense of self ravenous for the love of an elusive and thus endlessly
enticing other that is basic to a Two’s identity. Over and above these two explanations, the inner
hunger and inner neediness can never be satisfied by another since what is missing is contact with
Being, and so trying to fill that need through relationship is doomed to failure.
It may sound as though Twos never marry or form committed relationships, which is not the case.
Some famous Twos, such as Meg Ryan and Alan Alda, seem from the outside to have good marriages,
while others like Shirley Maclaine, Melanie Griffith, Barbara Walters, and Liz Taylor have had a
rocky time in this arena. The point is that regardless of whether a Two’s relationship is really simply
an infatuation or a long-term marriage, some degree of frustration is usually felt by the Two. Even
from the “healthy partner” who Horney “leaves out of consideration” in the quote above, the Two will
always feel some distance. A female Two’s husband may be somewhat aloof, preoccupied with work
or another woman, or just a bit insensitive to her needs. It seems that a Two needs some degree of
frustration for a relationship to remain compelling.
A Two’s primary focus is on getting love as we have seen, and so she tries to get it by presenting
herself as a lovable person, someone who deserves to be loved. An image type, she attempts to present
herself and act in ways that imitate the qualities of Merging Gold, qualities Horney unwittingly
describes in the following quote:
The need to satisfy this urge [for love] is so compelling that everything he does is oriented toward
its fulfillment. In the process he develops certain qualities and attitudes that mold his character. Some
of these could be called endearing: he becomes sensitive to the needs of others—within the frame of
what he is able to understand emotionally. For example, though he is likely to be quite oblivious to a
detached person’s wish to be aloof, he will be alert to another’s need for sympathy, help, approval,
and so on. He tries automatically to live up to the expectations of others, or to what he believes to be
their expectations, often to the extent of losing sight of his own feelings. He becomes “unselfish,” selfsacrificing,
undemanding—except for his unbounded desire for affection. He becomes compliant,
overconsiderate—within the limits possible for him—overappreciative, overgrateful, generous. He
blinds himself to the fact that in his heart of hearts he does not care much for others and tends to
regard them as hypocritical and self-seeking.6
While the last sentence quoted is a bit extreme for most normal neurotic Twos, the Two’s image,
then, becomes one of selflessness, giving without limits, sacrificing herself for another, being selfeffacing,
compliant, empathic, sensitive, and attuned to the needs of others. She demands of herself
that she be, or at least present herself as being, totally compassionate, loving, considerate,
understanding, in touch with and doing something about the suffering of others, and like a
Bodhisattva, putting her fulfillment second to saving everyone on the planet. On top of all that, she
must above all be humble. Naranjo used to characterize the Two “package” as “seductive false
humility.”
Only these lovable attributes are allowed by the Two’s superego, which relentlessly requires that
this saintlike image be attained. The punishment is guilt, and Twos are experts at guilt tripping both
themselves and others. Guilt for not living up to this image forms part of a Two’s emotional
atmosphere, consciously or unconsciously. The inner demand to fulfill the image is impossible
because it is an image, and so not their reality. On the one hand, they feel guilty for not fulfilling this
angelic image, and on the other hand, they feel guilty when they have succeeded in making someone
believe that’s how they really are since they know it is not the truth.
The Two’s superego also demands that in addition to being a saint she also be loved, and if a
relationship does not work out, it is inevitably her fault. If she had tried harder to be a more loving and
desirable person, the inner litany goes, things would have worked out. Jealousy and envy are highly
verboten, but the worst offense for a Two is being selfish. Thinking of herself first, rather than her
partner, family, ethnic group, et cetera, is the capital crime, and so self-sacrifice to the point of
martyrdom are part of the demands of her superego. Because of this, simply setting limits or saying no
to someone is next to impossible for a Two, prior to doing a lot of inner work. She harbors a secret
pride and sense of specialness about her lovable qualities and about what a good person she is being,
but because pride does not fit the humble image she is trying to live up to, it also becomes pushed to
the recesses of her consciousness. We will return to the subject of pride, the passion of this type,
shortly.
She manipulates herself in order to fit the all-loving image. She is constantly fiddling with her inner
experience, measuring it against how she thinks she ought to be and pushing herself to experience
something a little closer to it. The body parts associated with Twos are the hands and arms, fitting for
one who moves things about, pulls strings, and tries to make what she wants happen in imitation of
Holy Will. Internally she does this primarily through repression, the defense mechanism of this type,
in which she simply pushes out of consciousness anything that - doesn’t fit the image. Critical
perceptions and negative feelings about esteemed others, self-centered thoughts and impulses, as well
as neediness and her secret sense of specialness are pushed out of awareness. It is not that these
contents disappear, much as a Two would wish it were so; if they don’t arise to consciousness, they
appear in dreams, psychosomatic conditions, and neurotic symptoms such as anxiety, sleeplessness,
and so on. Although it takes tremendous psychic energy to keep the forbidden contents out of
consciousness, the alternative is worse: it often brings up acute anxiety for a Two to expose to herself
and others thoughts and feelings that do not fit with her idea of being a loving and lovable person.
Naranjo initially saw Twos as the classic Freudian hysterics, but that psychological term has now
fallen out of favor and histrionic has taken its place. Freud’s observation about hysterics is that their
sexuality is deeply repressed because of oedipal conflicts, and the result is psychosomatic symptoms,
what he called fugue states, and other dissociative mental states. Subsequent psychologists have
defined the hysterical character as a person who is “histrionically exhibitionistic, seductive, labile in
mood, and prone to act out oedipal fantasies, yet fearful of sexuality and inhibited in action,”7 an
accurate description of a Two.
Twos repress what they feel and anesthetize themselves to their own impulses, particularly sexual
ones, and the result is a kind of psychic pressure cooker: their emotions are dramatic and their
sexuality leaks out in seductive behavior and appearance. Female Twos tend to dress provocatively
although they are not usually conscious of it. Despite the nonverbal come-on, Twos are uneasy and
nervous about the sexual act itself. They cry easily and copiously—more often with others than when
alone, unlike Fours—and have fits of temper, pique, and impatience when things aren’t going the way
they want them to. Despite the appearance of a lot of affect, Twos are hysterical in that they discharge
emotion rather than fully experiencing it—they tend to be emotionally expressive, demonstrative, and
effusive, yet are not deeply in touch with what they are feeling.
As hysterics, most Twos are nonintellectual, as Naranjo has said, but there is a whole category of
Twos who have highly developed minds and fit Wilhelm Reich’s description of the “big brain”
hysteric. This type of hysteric uses her mind defensively—or, as Elsworth Baker, psychiatrist and
Reichian therapist, says, “uses her intellect as a tall phallus to defend herself against all men.”8 While
Reich thought such hysterics were only female, I have known male Twos who also use their minds in
this defensive way, seducing with their intellect while at the same time preventing real contact.
Neediness, touched on above, deserves a special place in the disallowed emotional experiences for a
Two. Busy intuiting and filling the needs of others, two functions get served. First, a Two fulfills the
image of being a kind of human cornucopia, brimming over with help and resources for others; but
more important, she gets to keep out of consciousness her own gnawing inner sense of neediness and
helplessness. Her dependency on others is difficult to tolerate; she berates herself for feeling weak and
needy. Experiencing her needs, especially for love and attention, blows the bountiful image that she
relies on to get the affection she feels her survival requires, and it also reawakens the early deficits in
attunement that are unbearable memories to her. It is one of the experiences she most avoids, and so
we find neediness at Point Two on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10.
She cannot tolerate feeling deprived since this would bring her within dangerous proximity to her
inner sense of neediness. Because of this, Twos generally have poor impulse control and tend to
develop all sorts of addictive patterns such as overeating, alcoholism, shopping addictions, and
obsessive love relationships. In the personality’s imitation of Holy Freedom, Twos have little
tolerance for any sort of limitations, restrictions, regimens, et cetera, far preferring to throw all
practicality, reason, and caution to the wind in the quest to lead a glamorous and exciting life. A Two
usually appears falsely abundant, as Naranjo notes, even though she may be knee-deep in credit card
debt; and a life of excess seems to be her only acceptable standard of living. License, then, takes the
place of real freedom in the life of a Two and obscures the underlying neediness. This is another
aspect of her trap of freedom. As Naranjo says, “The affectionate and tender type II individual can
become a fury when not indulged and made to feel loved through pampering such as is characteristic
of a spoiled child.”9
She has difficulty tolerating delayed gratification, like buying that great dress or that classy pair of
shoes next month when she will actually have the money to pay for them, or not eating those pieces of
chocolate - every night since she is trying to lose a few pounds. Obviously because of her selfindulgent
tendency, her relationship to her body is affected: Twos often have weight problems. They
crave pleasure and tend to equate food with love, and have little endurance for the deprivation they
feel when limiting their food intake, and that’s much too sensible, anyway. Some Twos are a little or a
lot overweight; some—again, like Liz Taylor—have wild weight swings. For most, regardless of size,
food and intake of all sorts is an issue.
How others see her—particularly others whom she idealizes and looks up to—matters more to her
than anything else. To say that their opinion matters more than her own would be missing the point,
since she often does not have her own opinion because her sense of herself is so dependent on how
others see her. Her self-worth is fragile, resting to a great extent on whether that special other pays
attention to her or not. Quoting Horney:
A third typical feature is part of his general dependence upon others. This is his unconscious
tendency to rate himself by what others think of him. His self-esteem rises and falls with their
approval or disapproval, their affection or lack of it. Hence any rejection is actually catastrophic for
him. If someone fails to return an invitation he may be reasonable about it consciously, but in
accordance with the logic of the particular inner world in which he lives, the barometer of his selfesteem
drops to zero. In other words any criticism, rejection, or desertion is a terrifying danger, and
he may make the most abject effort to win back the regard of the person who has thus threatened him.
His offering of the other cheek is not occasioned by some mysterious “masochistic” drive but is the
only logical thing he can do on the basis of his inner premises.10
This need to be liked, desired, and not rejected makes it very difficult for a Two to tolerate others
being upset or angry at her, and also makes her repress her own negative feelings toward others.
Conflicts mean loss of love, and that would be intolerable. Rather than risk such a loss, she is
understanding and amenable, seeing the other person’s point of view and forgiving him, at least on the
surface, while inwardly noting and holding on to the offense. A Two may offer you her other cheek,
but eventually there will be a price to pay.
With her self-esteem dependent on how others feel about her and her central belief that she is not
lovable, she needs constant reassurances that she is indeed loved. With her perpetual sense of
inadequacy, she needs constant praise. Like a cat, the animal associated with this type, she wants her
back scratched and demands lots of stroking and enormous amounts of attention. Twos are attention
getters who often wear tinkling jewelry or noisy shoes and loudly sigh or weep in groups to draw
attention to themselves. They will often do whatever it takes to get noticed, even if the attention they
get is negative or brings notoriety. Monica Lewinsky, probably a Two, is a current case in point.
Also like a cat, she will walk all over you to get the attention she wants, although you would have a
difficult time getting a Two to acknowledge her self-referent behavior. Rather than asking directly for
attention and pats on the back, Twos give it in order to get it back. The credo of a Two could easily be
Jesus’ precept to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Twos lavish attention, love,
and flattery onto those they want to be loved by, in the hope that what is given will be returned in
kind. There is nothing selfless about what a Two gives. This becomes very obvious if you don’t fulfill
your end of the unspoken bargain: she will try to make you feel guilty and will accuse you of
exploiting her generosity and of using her, and will turn on you with venom and hatred.
Like the proverbial Jewish mother, Twos feed you chicken soup laden with plenty of adoring
schmaltz whether you are hungry or not. But it comes with strings of obligation and guilt attached,
which run something like, “Look at all I do for you, and even though you never call me or think about
me, here I am, sacrificing for you out of the goodness of my heart. Don’t worry about me, I’ll be fine,”
accompanied by a loud sigh and mopping of the brow. Or, as the joke goes, how many Jewish
grandmothers (you can substitute Twos here) does it take to change a lightbulb? “None . . . I’ll just sit
here in the dark.” You don’t have to be Jewish, of course, to give in order to get, or to feel like a
martyred victim: there are versions of the same game in all ethnicities and religious groups.
Twos, then, manipulate through giving to get what they want. They feed you, flatter you, play to
you, cajole you, and as Naranjo used to say, unlike Sixes, who lick boots, Twos—to use a vulgar but
apt phrase—kiss ass. Their biggest manipulation, however, is being helpful. They will help you out
with whatever you need—whether you were aware of the need or not—whether it’s financial help,
doing something for you, listening to your troubles, matchmaking, counseling, cajoling, supporting
you, and so on. They try to insinuate themselves and make themselves indispensable to someone they
need in this way so that they will be needed in return.
Sexuality is the currency Twos often trade in, exchanging sexual favors for love. Twos frequently
equate their lovability and desirability with the number of sexual conquests they have made, and
female Twos often “collect famous cocks,” to use a sixties expression. Sex is used by Twos to fulfill
their need for attention rather than enjoyed as an expression of affection. As discussed earlier, while
Twos often project a very sexy image, they are rarely relaxed and open sexually, appearances to the
contrary.
Giving to get is inherently a frustrating way of operating since a Two’s real needs go
unacknowledged internally and so are unexpressed and ungratified externally. Using their image and
role to elicit love and admiration, Twos rarely feel loved for themselves. Using sexuality as a way of
making contact and gaining acceptance is inevitably unsatisfying. We have discussed the frustration
implicit in a Two’s quest for love, and it’s obvious that thwarting herself and remaining perpetually
unfulfilled are strong threads running through the life and psyche of a Two. The root is her turning
away from herself and depending on others for connection, which is an inherent frustration of her
personal unfoldment. For this reason on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11, which
describes each type’s relationship to their soul, self-frustrating appears at Point Two.
Not only do Twos frustrate themselves but they can be profoundly frustrating to others. While
complaining bitterly to you about how miserable /frustrated/upset they are—and Twos do complain a
lot—any attempts on your part to offer a solution will usually be met with a reason why your
suggestion won’t work. Eric Berne, the founder of Transactional analysis, calls this kind of interaction
the “game” of “Why Don’t You—Yes But.” 11 Berne defines a game as a repetitive social interaction
in which the outcome is predictable and fulfills a motive other than what is being explicitly discussed.
The object here is to prove that no suggestion will work, and like a mild projective identification, this
game makes the other person feel as helpless, hopeless, and frustrated as the Two feels internally. On
a deeper level, if a Two is not taking issue at something, i.e., pitting her will against something, she
would lose her sense of who she is. Some degree of negativity, oppositionality, and disgruntlement is
therefore necessary for a Two to maintain her sense of self.
The passion of Ennea-type Two is pride, as mentioned earlier, as we see on the Enneagram of
Passions in Diagram 2. It is not real self-esteem and an inner sense of self-worth but rather what
Horney calls “neurotic pride.” It is not based on real abilities or achievements but is an inflated sense
of self that is compensatory for the inner feeling of being unlovable and not valuable in herself. Twos
believe they are special—both especially gifted, talented, loving, giving, and so on—but also
especially complicated, neurotic, troubled, put-upon, and so forth. So the prideful self-inflation is both
about their positive as well as their negative qualities. They are larger than life, different from
ordinary people. They are capable of more. They can do more, accomplish more, feel more deeply,
care more, and so on. The other side is their belief that they are especially bad human beings, bigger
failures, more rejectable, more unlovable, and more unworthy than others. They are filled with their
own self-importance and often behave as though they were royalty, currying the admiration and praise
of others. Their pride lies in their puffed-up inner image of themselves—not for being who they are.
They are proud when they are indispensable to that prestigious other; they are proud when they are
sexually desired; they are proud when someone they value gives them special attention; they are proud
when they have given to others in superhuman ways and have behaved like a veritable Saint Teresa.
When their self-sacrifice is not acknowledged or when it is taken for granted, and when they are not
given the special treatment to which they feel entitled, or when they are not the center of attention,
Twos feel deeply hurt and humiliated.
A Two’s pride is not always visible. This is because there are two styles of Twos: those who
manifest the pride more overtly in a grandiose, exhibitionistic, pompous, and entitled manner; and the
more self-effacing type who present themselves in a more humble manner but whose pride is
nonetheless just below the surface.
The virtue associated with Point Two is humility, as we see on the Enneagram of Virtues in
Diagram 1. Ichazo defines humility as the “acceptance of the limits of the body, its capacities. The
intellect holds unreal beliefs about its own powers. The body knows precisely what it can and cannot
do. Humility in its largest sense is the knowledge of the true human position on the cosmic scale.” So
key to the working-through process for a Two is arriving at an objective sense of herself.
Developing humility means for a Two settling into herself first of all. Rather than orienting herself
outward—trying to please, reacting to and responding to others—she needs to turn her attention
inward. Since Twos seem so demanding and so self-referential, it may sound ironic that what she
really needs to do is to focus on herself and give herself the attention she craves from others, but it is
the only way she will ever truly get the contact she craves. Focusing on herself entails getting in touch
with what is truly going on inside under the blather of hysterical emotions and the exciting events and
crises in her life. So she must slow down her frenzy of activity and her flurry of emotion and sense
deeply into herself, getting in touch with what she is actually experiencing. Although the emotions of
a Two can be quite dramatic, she is not really deeply feeling them, as discussed earlier, and fully
experiencing them is necessary for her to develop an authentic sense of self. In the same vein, actually
sensing her body and feeling where its edges are is extremely important for a Two to develop a real
sense of where she leaves off and where her inflated self-image begins.
As she settles into herself, she will see that she is constantly comparing herself to her all-loving and
all-giving idealized self-image and either rejecting herself when she doesn’t measure up or puffing
herself up with pride when she does. She will need to acknowledge her pride and sense of specialness
—not an easy thing for a Two to do. She will get in touch with how her superego continuously rejects
how she is, both inwardly and outwardly, if she does not conform to the grand image it demands she
live up to—and how it usually doesn’t. She needs to see how much her self-assessment shifts
depending upon whether she feels loved or rejected by that significant person in her life, and that
fundamentally she has little self-love and self-acceptance. She will see that she is so sensitive to
rejection from others because it supports her own self-rejection, and she needs to understand
psychodynamically how this way of relating to herself resulted from her early childhood conditioning.
She will see that this internal dynamic is pitting herself against her reality, and rather than this
willfulness changing her or freeing her, it only makes her suffer terribly. Part of the key to being
willing to defend against her superego and beginning to accept herself lies in experiencing directly
how painful and hurtful this dynamic is.
The more she gets out from under her superego and opens to her inner reality, the more she will see
that she is human and that both her capacities and her limits do not determine her value or her lack
thereof. She will be able to accept what she is truly capable of and what she isn’t, what she is really
experiencing and what she would like to be experiencing, and will cease feeling subhuman and having
to compensate for it by acting in superhuman ways. She needs to understand that she is lovable simply
for who she is, not for what she can do for others. This will lead to an honest sense of what she truly
wishes and doesn’t wish to do for others, rather than feeling obligated and guilt ridden if she is not
being there for - everyone. It will also lead to knowing and accepting what her limits are physically,
energetically, psychically, and in honoring them, learning to feel comfortable with saying no to others.
It also entails seeing that her lack of inner limits, which she has called freedom, is simply license
and in fact imprisons her. She needs to see how much she is a slave to her desires, her likes and
dislikes, how difficult it is to say no to gratifying them even if it puts her in financial, physical, or
emotional jeopardy. She needs to see that being realistic about how much money she has or when her
belly is actually full or whether she really needs another new outfit does not make life dull, boring,
and unromantic but in fact provides the ground for her to do things that are truly liberating and
meaningful in her life.
Humility means taking care of herself and giving attention to herself in a pragmatic way, and
instead of seeing this result in her becoming selfish, which she often fears, she will find that she
becomes more and more centered within herself. The more seated in herself she becomes, the more
she can accept, surrender to, and flow with her inner reality, and the freer she becomes of her
historical self and of her dependency on others. The more she opens to herself, the more she will
accept others and truly be able to receive and give the love she has been so desperate for. She will be
able to let go of herself, truly surrendering to what is, and in this, becoming one with her deepest
nature. She will know herself to be one with Being, a drop of sweet honey, melted in ecstatic union
with the Divine.


----------



## orbit

It's spoiler not spoilers ^^
@shinynotshiny, nothing speaks love like a giant frog assaulting you


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Ah, that should be a lot better then. Marketing was okay when I was doing an internship in it, but I was very limited by a lack of knwoledge of the industry, so mostly got stuck researching academics.


I'm leaning more towards communications at the moment. Intercultural communication is always interesting to me, and it's something I feel like I would actually gain something from by learning how to do it better. I like the idea of marketing but in my degree it's tied in with sales and while I don't mind working in retail (at least with good products and nice customers), I don't think I'd do too well in a corporate, Head Office type setting. 



> Oh fun. I always prefer to plan a bit and get mentally prepared before going travelling (I find it stressful, but enjoy it once I'm there). Basics are usually quite nice to go over. Good luck!


I'm the same - I like to have an idea of what I'm getting myself into before I throw myself into it. I don't need to have a lot of things planned out, but I feel better if, for example, I have a place to go to when I arrive. 

Curious as to how @Greyhart feels about this. I'm wondering if her 6 wing + sp/sx stacking might make her a bit more cautious than my "the less I know the better" ENTP. 

I will definitely look that site up :ghost: Thank you!
(Also that comic is amazing.)



> Yeah, I was wondering between 8w9 and 1w9, because both can look similar on the surface, but have very different motivations/fears.


I've noticed some people have trouble distinguishing between 8 and 1 anger. I guess I just haven't seen any issues of vulnerability with shiny, or at least anything that would overshadow the whole competency/perfectionism thing she's got going on.


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> For what it is worth I talk a lot in class. Like teachers stop calling on me because they want to make other students participate. I forget my self-consciousness when I get excited about ideas, even if I'm in a room full of people. Not sure if that points to extrovert or not?


I still think you are Ne dom but it's largely by impression I got from your video. :woof:



> While I think @Greyhart has a point with it setting boundaries, I do kind of wonder what would happen if we all just decided to dispense with small talk.


ANARCHY.









If you start bypassing small talk left and right people get confused, think you are rude, dismissive and don't respect them which maybe true. The only true solution would be a global abolition of the small talk etiquette.











>


Like that!



> Same. I think the thing is that low-Ne indecision comes from a more fearful place and higher-Ne indecision comes from the abundance of possibilities and seeing the pros and cons for everything?


Combined with core 7 it's like "Pros and Cons.. CONS WHAT CONS I'M SURE IT'LL BE ALRIGHT!"



> I think it has to do with the fact that ENTPs are questioners. Lavender is lovely.


So ENTP's distrust.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> I still think you are Ne dom but it's largely by impression I got from your video. :woof:
> 
> 
> ANARCHY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you start bypassing small talk left and right people get confused, think you are rude, dismissive and don't respect them which maybe true. The only true solution would be a global abolition of the small talk etiquette.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like that!
> 
> 
> Combined with core 7 it's like "Pros and Cons.. CONS WHAT CONS I'M SURE IT'LL BE ALRIGHT!"
> 
> 
> So ENTP's distrust.


[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tad Cooper

Curiphant said:


> How I imagine alittlebear in a two minute messy sketch. The proportions are outrageously realistic.


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> I'm leaning more towards communications at the moment. Intercultural communication is always interesting to me, and it's something I feel like I would actually gain something from by learning how to do it better. I like the idea of marketing but in my degree it's tied in with sales and while I don't mind working in retail (at least with good products and nice customers), I don't think I'd do too well in a corporate, Head Office type setting.
> 
> 
> I'm the same - I like to have an idea of what I'm getting myself into before I throw myself into it. I don't need to have a lot of things planned out, but I feel better if, for example, I have a place to go to when I arrive.
> 
> Curious as to how @_Greyhart_ feels about this. I'm wondering if her 6 wing + sp/sx stacking might make her a bit more cautious than my "the less I know the better" ENTP.
> 
> I will definitely look that site up :ghost: Thank you!
> (Also that comic is amazing.)
> 
> 
> I've noticed some people have trouble distinguishing between 8 and 1 anger. I guess I just haven't seen any issues of vulnerability with shiny, or at least anything that would overshadow the whole competency/perfectionism thing she's got going on.


What would you be focusing on in communications? I have only a loose understanding of businesses... Ah, but what if the head office was of a very small business?

Yes, my friend went to France a year ago with no accommodation and just cobbled something together. I would've been ridiculously stressed in her position (and she ended up in a place where she slept on the floor on a mattress and the tap was coming off the sink). She's not very... prepared though.

I think Se is more inclined towards 'the less I know the better', but I would be interested to see if there's a tendency for Pe types to do that. Se would prefer to just go and see what's there a fair amount of the time.... but there's a fine line between that and just not thinking.

Haha true. I think lots of 8 descriptions are very unflattering though, so it can be difficult to tell.


----------



## Ninjaws

laurie17 said:


> What would you be focusing on in communications? I have only a loose understanding of businesses... Ah, but what if the head office was of a very small business?
> 
> Yes, my friend went to France a year ago with no accommodation and just cobbled something together. I would've been ridiculously stressed in her position (and she ended up in a place where she slept on the floor on a mattress and the tap was coming off the sink). She's not very... prepared though.
> 
> I think Se is more inclined towards 'the less I know the better', but I would be interested to see if there's a tendency for Pe types to do that. Se would prefer to just go and see what's there a fair amount of the time.... but there's a fine line between that and just not thinking.
> 
> Haha true. I think lots of 8 descriptions are very unflattering though, so it can be difficult to tell.


For me, Se manifests in disliking overpreparing. I prefer to run in, hit a wall, research how to break the wall, continue. I dislike learning something unless it has immediate value to me.


----------



## Greyhart

ElliCat said:


> I'm the same - I like to have an idea of what I'm getting myself into before I throw myself into it. I don't need to have a lot of things planned out, but I feel better if, for example, I have a place to go to when I arrive.
> 
> Curious as to how @Greyhart feels about this. I'm wondering if her 6 wing + sp/sx stacking might make her a bit more cautious than my "the less I know the better" ENTP.


Nah. Traveling? My cautiousness goes as far as packing extra medicine, and avoiding places with plagues and war. I still loath detailed planning. My plans go like "Gotta be at station at <insert some time>, board this train, get to the place, go to some other place, figure out what to do for fun". Rest will fill itself in as I go. Too much details about prices, times, places will make me anxious.


----------



## ElliCat

fair phantom said:


> For what it is worth I talk a lot in class. Like teachers stop calling on me because they want to make other students participate. I forget my self-consciousness when I get excited about ideas, even if I'm in a room full of people. Not sure if that points to extrovert or not?


It might??? I don't know if it would be exclusive to extraversion but it points in that direction at least?

I can get like that but I've got to be really comfortable. Like if I don't like the teacher and am not interested in the material I won't volunteer answers, even if I know the information. But if I like the teacher (or otherwise feel "supported" in the classroom) and am relatively confident that I know what I'm talking about, I'm more likely to put my hand up and/or contribute to the discussion. Sometimes if no one else is contributing anything and I think the material's really easy I'll get pissed off and that'll spur me into action... it's happened in a couple of classes. 



> While I think @Greyhart has a point with it setting boundaries, I do kind of wonder what would happen if we all just decided to dispense with small talk.


People would FREAK OUT.



laurie17 said:


> What would you be focusing on in communications? I have only a loose understanding of businesses... Ah, but what if the head office was of a very small business?


I've got no idea, because a year into this programme the only communications subject we've had included 5 short lectures on very basic information, plus 20-minute group presentations which basically took care of the rest of the "teaching". :ssad: But I guess it could encompass internal communications, external communications, social media and PR, etc.



> Yes, my friend went to France a year ago with no accommodation and just cobbled something together. I would've been ridiculously stressed in her position (and she ended up in a place where she slept on the floor on a mattress and the tap was coming off the sink). She's not very... prepared though.
> 
> I think Se is more inclined towards 'the less I know the better', but I would be interested to see if there's a tendency for Pe types to do that. Se would prefer to just go and see what's there a fair amount of the time.... but there's a fine line between that and just not thinking.


Yeah, I think it's a Pe thing in general, especially if there's 7-ish positive thinking involved! I was also thinking about sx being higher in the stacking than sp.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart what was that video you posted awhile ago about time being a myth or something like that (not articulate)?

I want to show it to someone


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> Nah. Traveling? My cautiousness goes as far as packing extra medicine, and avoiding places with plagues and war. I still loath detailed planning. My plans go like "Gotta be at station at <insert some time>, board this train, get to the place, go to some other place, figure out what to do for fun". Rest will fill itself in as I go. Too much details about prices, times, places will make me anxious.


I _did_ only say "a bit". I think this qualifies as "a bit". XD


----------



## Persephone Soul

*deleted*


----------



## Tad Cooper

Ninjaws said:


> For me, Se manifests in disliking overpreparing. I prefer to run in, hit a wall, research how to break the wall, continue. I dislike learning something unless it has immediate value to me.


This is true for me as well, I much prefer going for it and then working out what to do if I get stuck. It's like with games or something - you need to go in, see what it's like and then work out what to do if you get stuck.


----------



## Ninjaws

tine said:


> This is true for me as well, I much prefer going for it and then working out what to do if I get stuck. It's like with games or something - you need to go in, see what it's like and then work out what to do if you get stuck.


Exactly. That's what made high school so annoying. You had to learn mountains of things just for one test. I prefer getting tests constantly so I know what I have to focus on. But one test every 3 months? I have no idea what to do, which means I have to do everything. :/


----------



## Tad Cooper

Ninjaws said:


> Exactly. That's what made high school so annoying. You had to learn mountains of things just for one test. I prefer getting tests constantly so I know what I have to focus on. But one test every 3 months? I have no idea what to do, which means I have to do everything. :/


Yeah I got frustrated with stuff like that and enjoyed and did well in a module that had weekly tests as well as a final test - got the information lodged in my head.


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> This is true for me as well, I much prefer going for it and then working out what to do if I get stuck. It's like with games or something - you need to go in, see what it's like and then work out what to do if you get stuck.


The thing is, my brain runs multiple ways things could go (not necessary _"wrong"_, just *~go~*) on the background so I am usually confident and not really caught off-guard with changes or difficulties, and I can swiftly come up with ways to proceed. Alien zombies attack? It's OK I thought about it sometime before!.. Nothing specific, though.



ElliCat said:


> I _did_ only say "a bit". I think this qualifies as "a bit". XD


:tongue: 



hoopla said:


> @Greyhart what was that video you posted awhile ago about time being a myth or something like that (not articulate)?
> 
> I want to show it to someone


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime


----------



## Persephone Soul

Blue Flare said:


> BTW if someone else is interested in a type description, tell me which one you want to read and I can copy paste it from the ebook.



I know i am a 4,6,8, but am going back and forth between 4 or 6 as my core. I am pretty certain I am a sx/sp, and my wings I am pretty sure on, but to be honest, I feel silly when I type what I believe to be my tritype. It was not intentional. ..

4w5, 6w7, 8w9 aka ...456789...  lol

Anyway, could you and fair phantom help get this solid for me?


EDIT: here are my results to the test. Pretty close, they just got it backwards. Its 6w7 and 8w9 instead of 7w6 and 9w8....

You are a Type 4 with a 5 wing: "The Bohemian"
Your trifix is 4w5, 7w6, 9w8.

In enneagram theory, you have one type for how you relate to the world (either 8, 9, or 1), one type for how you think (5, 6, 7) and one type for how you see yourself (2, 3, 4.) Your tri-fix contains one number from each of these triads. They are listed in the order of how strongly they present in your personality.*

Your core type (your strongest type) is Type 4 with a 5 wing:*Type Four individuals are intensely emotionally aware, and often retreat to their rich inner world of concepts and ideas. They are the most artistic type in the Enneagram and driven to create their own, unique identity. Type Fours value authenticity highly and express themselves whenever they can. They are one of the most individualistic types in the Enneagram. Type Fours, when in a state of growth, become principled like Type Ones. When stressed, Type Fours can become clingy like an unhealthy Type Two. You are a Type Four with a Five wing, which means that the individualist nature of a Four combines with the cerebral nature of a Five to make you one of the most creative types in the Enneagram.

Your second type (your next strongest type) is Type 7 with a 6 wing:*Type Seven individuals are energetic, engaging, and playful. They have a love for life and can easily jump from one exciting topic to the next. The Type Seven thought process is a bit scattered, but that?s because they are easily interested in many different things. This is why Type Seven is often called The Enthusiast. When in a growth state, Type Sevens become focused like Type Fives. When they?re stressed, they become a perfectionist like a Type One. The enthusiastic nature of the Type Seven combines with the cooperative nature of the Type Six, making the 7w6 a very outgoing type.

Your third type (the least-used of the three) is Type 9 with a 8 wing:*Nines are receptive, easygoing, and loveable. Out of all the types in the Enneagram, they have a special ability to get along with others. For this reason, they?re often skilled mediators, resolving conflicts both within themselves and among others. Nines value peace, especially inner peace, very highly. When in a state of growth, Nines become energetic and driven like Type Threes. When stressed, Nines become anxious like an unhealthy Type Six. You are a Type Nine with an Eight wing, which means that the harmonious traits of the Nine merge with the aggressive traits of the Eight. Inner peace is your goal, but if something is challenging that peace, your Eight wing means that you?ll stand up and deal with the situation assertively and decisively.

Some words that describe you:*relaxed, peaceful, harmonious, creative, unique, authentic, emotional, enthusiastic, energetic, spontaneous, fun.*


----------



## Dangerose

Blue Flare said:


> The thing is that type 5 descriptions seem more appealing, while type 1 has an SJ vibe which can make you go WTF if you're XNTJ. Also being a recluse may be just introversion, as I'm a 7 yet I prefer to be alone, and this can be because XNTJs and XSFPs are 'lone wolves' that tend to not feel well in groups that are big (this is based on the gamma quadra info).
> 
> BTW this is Maitri's description of type 1 (she's an INFJ probably so the focus is different to the usual ennea descriptions)
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ones are the perfectionists of the enneagram. They often look bright and shiny, with a clean and
> scrubbed quality, as well as a sense of righteousness and piety about them. Ones experience
> themselves as good people, trying to do what is correct, just, and moral, while often unconsciously,
> they see themselves as flawed or not fundamentally right. Taking the moral high ground, their antenna
> is out for what they perceive as imperfection or wrongness, which triggers their resentment and anger,
> since in their minds it should not be that way. Tolerating something that they see as not right feels
> almost impossible for them, and so they want to fix it and correct it. In particular, the behavior of
> others is often the target of their attempts to set things right. They are aligned with their superego, and
> tend to be judgmental and critical, both of themselves and of others.
> Ones often feel burdened by their criticality and intolerance of imperfection but feel at a loss to do
> anything about it. The solution is for others to behave correctly and for things to go in ways that are
> optimal as they see it. They can be quite controlling, trying to make others do things the “right” way,
> although in their own minds they are simply trying to do the right thing. They are also selfcontrolling,
> restraining and holding themselves back from behaving, thinking, or feeling in ways that
> they consider wrong, immoral, or sinful. This self-constraint limits their spontaneity and vitality,
> which sometimes leak out in various forms of acting out, whether sexually, in terms of substance
> abuse, or in rages.
> *The Holy Idea that Ones have lost touch with is Holy Perfection. When we see reality from this
> angle, we perceive that it has an inherent rightness about it that is fundamental. The moment we step
> beyond the blinders of the personality, we see that implicit in all that exists are dimensions of
> increasing depth, of which the physical is the outermost and the Absolute, a state beyond
> manifestation, presence, even consciousness, the most fundamental—this is essentially the
> recognition of the existence of spiritual dimensions in all that exists. Or to put it differently, we see
> that everything is made up of and is therefore inseparable from True Nature. Beyond this perception of
> the multidimensionality of the universe, from the angle of Holy Perfection we see its perfection. We
> see that all that exists has a fundamental rightness to it and that everything that occurs is correct and
> perfect.*
> This Holy Idea is one of the more difficult to understand because even the sense in which the word
> perfection is used is so much at variance with egoic reality. When we say that something is perfect,
> what we are typically doing is measuring that thing against our inner yardstick of what we believe is
> ideal, and determining that it approximates that model. It is difficult to conceive of a sense of
> perfection that is not based on comparing one thing to another and judging which most closely
> resembles our inner standard of excellence and thus which seems better. Such a sense of perfection
> determined by comparative judgment is based on subjective standards that have been shaped by our
> culture, family values, and personal preferences and history, and is the only perfection known to the
> realm of the personality.
> Without the filter of the subjective self, we see that all of existence has a quality of completeness,
> wholeness, and faultlessness just because it is. This sense of perfection that we experience when
> reality is seen through the lens of Holy Perfection is perhaps most closely conveyed by formulations
> borrowed from the traditions of the East: “isness” and “suchness.” In Zen Buddhism, this view of
> things is called kono-mama, which translates as the “as-it-is-ness of this,” or sono-mama, the “as-itisness
> of that”; in Sanskrit the term is tathata, or “suchness”; and in Chinese it is chih-mo or shih-mo.1
> Perceiving this “as-it-is-ness” of things is perceiving the fundamental nature of them. In other words,
> if we see things as they are, what we see is the inner nature as well as the outer form of them. Each
> manifestation in the universe, be it planet, tree, or person, is seen here to be continuous with and
> inseparable from the fundamental nature common to all forms, and that fundamental nature is seen to
> be just right. The outer shape of one flower may be more graceful than the one next to it, but that has
> nothing to do with each flower’s inherent rightness as it is, since both are manifestations of Being.
> From this perspective, to say that one flower is more perfect than another makes no sense.
> It is difficult to understand how we can say that reality is perfect when there is so much suffering on
> the planet stemming from natural disasters, disease, and human foibles. Perhaps an analogy, borrowed
> from Almaas, will help to explain the perspective from which reality looks this way: We know from
> physics that atoms are the building blocks of all matter, and they in turn are made up of subatomic
> particles like electrons and photons, and smaller still, quarks and gluons. All atoms are complete,
> whole, and perfect unless they are altered, which is what happens when we create a nuclear explosion.
> At this atomic level, whether the atoms make up an emerald or excrement, the reality of each atom is
> still perfect.
> Holy Perfection is only possible to glimpse when we are not living on the surface of our experience
> and of our lives. I think this is a very difficult Holy Idea to understand because this is the level most
> people live from. Perhaps the following quote from Almaas will make it clearer:
> The way we ordinarily see the world is not the way it really is because we see it from the
> perspective of our judgments and preferences, our likes and dislikes, our fears and our ideas of how
> things should be. So to see things as they really are, which is to see things objectively, we have to put
> these aside—in other words, we have to let go of our minds. Seeing things objectively means that it
> doesn’t matter whether we think what we’re looking at is good or bad—it means just seeing it as it is.
> If a scientist is conducting an experiment, he doesn’t say, “I don’t like this so I’ll ignore it.” He may
> not personally care for the results because they don’t confirm his theory, but pure science means
> seeing things the way they really are. If he says he is not going to pay attention to the experiment
> because he doesn’t like it, that is not science. Yet, this is the way most of us deal with reality, inwardly
> and outwardly. 2
> It does not make sense to think of improving or of adding anything to atoms, and in the same way,
> the ultimate nature of reality is not improvable and cannot be made better than it is. When we are in
> touch with all of the dimensions of reality—when we are in touch with the fundamental nature of
> things, in other words—it becomes difficult to say that what transpires, even if physical or emotional
> pain results, should be different or that it is wrong.
> Much of human suffering is the result of people experiencing and living their lives out of synch
> with their inner depths in which Holy Perfection is obvious. For those firmly entrenched in egoic
> reality, the surface of their lives and experience is a distortion of the fundamental perfection of their
> depths. On this level, people behave in ways that are hurtful and inconsiderate of others, to say the
> least, but this does not mean that who they fundamentally are is imperfect or wrong. Even if a
> person’s consciousness is filled with hatred and greed, that person’s soul is nonetheless made up of
> and inseparable from its depths and so it is inherently perfect. When the depth dimension is part of a
> person’s conscious experience, it is not possible intentionally to hurt another person or cause harm
> without instantly suffering. From this perspective, we can see that no one is fundamentally bad, and
> that what we call evil is only based on judgments we make on the egoic level.
> It is important to understand that I am not condoning humanity’s mistreatment of each other, nor
> am I suggesting that those who treat others in harmful ways should go unpunished. I am simply saying
> that such behavior is only possible when we live our lives out of synch and out of touch with the
> totality that we are, and that such actions do not reflect our fundamental nature. I am also suggesting
> that our interpretations and judgments about what transpires both within and outside of ourselves are
> clouded by our subjective positions and beliefs, which often limit our perception of the larger picture.
> When our view becomes deep enough, we can see the perfection even in things that seem tragic on
> the surface, such as a massive forest fire—which clears the ground for new growth; or a crippling
> accident, like that of Christopher Reeve—who has inspired millions with his courage and will to live.
> Even the terrible suffering of the Tibetan people at the hands of the Chinese may have served the
> deeper purpose of bringing the wisdom of Tibetan Buddhism to the rest of the world. Rather than
> deciding that something is bad, our response becomes one of compassion for the suffering that we see,
> which supports life, rather than rejecting what seems wrong to us, which doesn’t help at all.
> In terms of our experience of ourselves, Holy Perfection translates as meaning that who we are is
> inherently and implicitly perfect, that we are just right as we are, that we do not need anything added
> to us or subtracted from us. Integrating this understanding may totally change our approach to inner
> work, since from this angle we see that we do not need to become better, that we do not need to be
> different, and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with us. All we really need to do is to connect
> with and realize our inherent perfection. From the enlightened perspective of Point One, that is all
> working on oneself is for and all that it is about.
> As we integrate the view of reality seen from the angle of Holy Perfection and become conscious of
> the inherent perfection of everything, our inner experience and, as a result, our lives, align and express
> that level of reality. In other words, to the extent that we are in touch with Holy Perfection, our lives
> take on a quality of extraordinariness and sublimity, and we feel that what occurs in our lives is on the
> mark—just what is needed and what is appropriate both for ourselves and others. This is real change—
> far more radical and basic than self-improvement. We will discuss a bit about how this comes about
> for Ones when we explore the virtue of this point at the end of this chapter.
> For an Ennea-type One, losing contact with his essential nature feels like losing touch with the
> inherent perfection of all that exists and with his own intrinsic perfection. To the young soul of a One,
> contact with Essence was experienced as the ultimate perfection, a sense of bliss, of heaven on earth, a
> condition where his soul was totally relaxed and fulfilled, in which nothing needed to be done and he
> could rest and settle into his depths. When direct contact with that profound sense of perfection is lost,
> the result is a deep sense of anguish that he is no longer abiding in that perfection and cannot get in
> touch with it. He loses the sense that he and reality are fundamentally just right, whole, and complete;
> and this absense is felt as a not-rightness—a wrongness. He comes to feel that he is imperfect, and it
> may seem to him as if the very substance of his soul had a fundamental flaw, a basic badness or
> wrongness about it. There arises a mental fixation or underlying and all-pervasive belief that he and
> the reality he perceives are essentially imperfect, not good enough. We find this fixation encapsulated
> by the word resentment on Diagram 2. What is really amiss is that he has lost contact with his depths,
> but this loss appears as or is interpreted as being basically damaged goods. In other words, the inner
> felt experience that results from nonperception of Essence for a One feels like a wrongness. This
> becomes an inner conviction that he is tainted and bad, the sense that he has a fatal flaw and is not
> made of the right substance. This is the cognitive distortion underlying all of the other characteristics
> of this ennea-type, and it is what is termed his deficiency in rightness on the Enneagram of
> Avoidances, Diagram 10 in Appendix B—his painful core sense of deficiency, which feels too
> intolerable to experience fully.
> This sense of basic imperfection may arise in concert with an early childhood in which the message
> was communicated directly or interpreted internally that he just wasn’t good enough or wasn’t the
> right thing. This may have resulted from his biological needs being subtly or overtly judged and
> rejected, leading to the sense that they were wrong, or from having an overcritical and emotionally
> withholding parent who imposed very high standards that seemed to the young One impossible to live
> up to. One or both parents may have had very One-ish tendencies such as strong moral judgmentalness
> and fundamental religious beliefs. Sometimes the whole early situation was a setup, in which he was
> looked to by the parents to fulfill unfillable needs, such as replacing a lost loved one, resulting in a
> profound sense of not being good enough or having what it takes for the task.
> Regardless of the source, the One is left with the sense of not being what was needed or wanted in
> the environment and of being somehow wrong. In order to return to his prior state of bliss, it becomes
> critical for him to deduce, form, and create an idea of what perfection is. He tries to figure out what
> mom wants, what will restore the sense of harmony and once again allow his soul to relax and
> reconnect him with the lost perfection. So his instinctual drive to reestablish homeostasis is turned
> toward trying to be good, achieve perfection, and make mommy happy. Eventually his drive energy
> gets fully coopted into this striving for perfection, and in time this quest turns him against his own
> instinctual energy. Ultimately the perfection he seeks is his depths—the realm of Being—with which
> he has lost touch, and the memory of contact with this realm takes on the distorted outlines of ideals
> that the One uses as his subjective yardstick. Reality, inner and outer, is gauged against these pictures
> and beliefs of how things ought to be, and the relative distance to “perfect” is calculated. Inevitably
> reality always falls short of his standards, and he seems unable to perceive anything as perfect,
> particularly himself. This is the source of his intense self-criticism, in which he is constantly judging
> and rebuking himself for his imperfections.
> This assessment of proximity to the ideal is definitely not neutral. A further step is then taken,
> which turns the Ennea-type One into a perfectionist: what is not perfect is deemed bad. To tolerate
> what he determines to be bad would mean tolerating his estrangement from Being, which in the depths
> of his soul is intolerable, and so what is bad becomes unacceptable. In this way, he creates distance
> and defends himself against the experience of loss of Being.
> A One’s judgments about what is good and what is bad are relative, determined by his own
> orientation. So being sexually liberated might be seen by a feminist One as good, while to a bornagain
> Christian, it would probably seem bad. Whether conservative or liberal, however, Ones tend -
> toward orthodoxy in whatever views they hold. It is important to them to be politically correct—or in
> spiritual circles, spiritually so—and to hold tenaciously what they consider to be the right “line.”
> With his determinations of good and bad in place, it becomes obvious then what needs to be done:
> he sets about trying to improve himself and others to make them good and therefore acceptable. This
> becomes an inner orientation and way of relating to life both inwardly and outwardly: trying to make
> things better. Driven by this deep feeling of wrongness, Ones are constantly striving to correct things,
> and are restless and anxious about the way things are, which to them is not as they should be. The
> quest for perfection, then, is his trap, as we see on Diagram 9.
> This orientation toward perfection is apparent in the extreme need of Ones to be seen as good and,
> conversely, in the extreme difficulty that they have when what they consider a flaw or imperfection is
> pointed out to them. Feedback becomes instantly translated internally into criticism, which they may
> fend off by becoming defensive, obviously trying to resurrect an inner evaluation of being good. When
> they confront a psychological issue or an undeveloped capacity, they believe that they should already
> have mastered the difficulty, they judge themselves harshly, and then assume that since they have not
> resolved it yet that they never will. Then they feel hopeless about themselves, assuming that
> something is wrong with them, confirming their underlying sense of wrongness. When they relate to
> themselves in this way, as though they should already be enlightened, it is clear that there is little
> room for growth and little tolerance for development in the inner world of a One. On the other hand,
> Ones sometimes look for criticism from others as a way of orienting themselves in terms of knowing
> what is wrong and therefore what needs fixing and how to do it.
> Another manifestation of this need for things to be good is an intolerance of negative emotions. It is
> very difficult for a One to tolerate complaints, sadness, or hostility both in themselves and in others.
> They tend to try to keep things positive, and will offer counsel such as, “Cheer up—think of all you
> have to be grateful for,” “How can you be unhappy—you have so much going for you,” and “Look on
> the sunny side of things,” even to the point of telling the other person that they are not really feeling
> sad or ill. Or, trying to make things better, a One might give advice such as “Just do this and
> everything will be fine.” Allowing the negative threatens to bring up his unbearable sense of
> wrongness.
> They try hard—and pride themselves on trying harder than others—to correct and make things
> better. They have a sense of moral superiority, driven by an inner gyroscope of what is right and good.
> They preach, advise, crusade, and try to help others become more the way Ones believe they should
> be, feeling a sense of mission to achieve perfection even if it means wringing it out of the world
> around them. This was exemplified in the turn of the century “white man’s burden” of bringing
> civilization to the “less developed” races, believing Christianity and Western culture would save the
> souls of those they regarded as heathens. They are grammarians, moralists, and experts about what is
> proper and how to do things correctly. Miss Manners comes to mind, as well as Martha Stewart, who
> tells us how to do things perfectly around our homes, and in her magazine Martha Stewart: Living
> devotes a section to “good things.”
> Dedicated to what appears to a One as right, it is inconceivable to him that there might be more than
> one correct way things could be, and so there is little room in his mind for divergence from his
> opinion. He has little regard or respect for the boundaries or the wishes of others in his quest to make
> things perfect, since what is right supersedes all personal preferences in his opinion. Making the world
> perfect is for Ones a just and noble cause in which they are the champions. They are the good cops,
> policing the world. Proud of their own self-control, they are often very controlling of others. What you
> do is their business, and they let you know when you are stepping out of line.
> While these perfectionistic traits may be difficult for others and are also often painful for Ones
> themselves, they feel obligated to do what they perceive as right; this is an obligation rooted in their
> love and loyalty for the lost sense of perfection. This continual effort to perfect themselves and the
> surrounding world becomes in itself idealized, and it is part of what they believe makes them good.
> The way this works is that even though they feel they are fundamentally bad, because they know this
> and are trying to be better, they have some chance at redemption. In fact, to stop trying to improve
> things often means to Ones losing the only shred of goodness that they feel they have and losing their
> only hope of finding the lost sense of precious perfection. To stop this trying would be tantamount to
> succumbing to their estrangement from True Nature and really being without any possibility of
> salvation. Trying to change things becomes viewed as noble, and so they become evangelical, zealots
> for the “good.” The focus gets shifted in the process from their inner sense of imperfection—which
> often gets buried in the unconscious—to all the flaws they see in others and in the world. The effort to
> make reality conform to their ideals becomes a kind of holy crusade, which sometimes feels uplifting
> and at other times a cause they resent feeling compelled to participate in. We will return to this
> resentment that gives this ennea-type its name when discussing the passion.
> The Crusades of the Middle Ages exemplify on a mass scale what it is like to be a One. Christian
> Europeans believed they had a moral obligation to save the Holy Land from the infidels and that they
> would be ennobled by making this effort, even if they failed. From a psychological point of view,
> every One becomes identified with his superego, fighting a campaign against the inner infidel, which
> to him resides in the seething cauldron of instinctual drives that is the id. Inner pictures of how he
> should be stand in stark and anxiety-provoking contrast to the dark and forbidden impulses of the
> instinctual self. To a One, this instinctual self is seen as the enemy, as what is wrong with himself and
> others. This is because the instinctual self is essentially self-centered and pleasure driven, oblivious to
> others except as sources of gratification, uninterested in anything beyond corporeal enjoyment, and is
> greedy, amoral, and unrefined. It feels animalistic, although animals are never as base and gross as
> this part of human beings is.
> There is a grain of truth buried in the belief that this instinctual self is the problem. We have seen
> that it is the reactivity to impingements and unmet physical needs in early infancy that gradually
> severs the soul’s connection to Being, as discussed in Chapter 1. We become identified with the body
> and its instinctual drives, and the paradise of oneness with Being becomes a distant dream. The Enneatype
> One deals with this animal part—which, it is important to remember, all of us have—by
> identifying with what he considers to be the “good” parts of himself: those that are virtuous, selfless,
> compassionate, and benevolent. Through his superego, he tries to control and reform the “bad”
> instinctual parts and so becomes identified with being on the side of the good. In his righteousness
> about fighting the good inner fight, he neglects to see that his rejection of the primitive within does
> not transform it but instead only gives it more power in the unconscious and causes it to leak out
> behaviorally in one way or another. We have seen this exemplified often enough in the religious
> zealots who preach about morality and decry sinfulness, only to be caught in seedy and scandalous
> sexual peccadilloes or revealed to have embezzled vast sums of money from their faithful flocks.
> He also ignores the fact that a great deal of aggression, which itself is fueled by the rejected and
> buried instinctual self, goes into his quest to make things good and right. Because this aggression is
> unacceptable in its raw form and so blocked, it is no longer pure instinctual drive but rather a
> distortion of it. This distortion takes the form of anger, the passion of this ennea-type, as we see on the
> Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. He is angry at the bad, to put it succinctly, and his anger is an
> attempt to change it while at the same time distancing himself from it.
> Ichazo, according to Naranjo, defines anger as a “standing against reality,”3 and perhaps this sense
> of being at odds with what is, most purely describes this passion. Ones meet reality with
> preconceptions/false affirmation, the phrase that appears at Point One on the Enneagram of Lies,
> Diagram 12. With their sense of how things ought to be acting as a compass, Ones pit themselves
> against and try to change what they encounter both inwardly and outwardly. Nothing is ever quite
> right, and so they are never satisfied. Feeling responsible for fixing what they perceive as bad, they
> end up feeling frustrated and resentful.
> This perpetual hostility toward reality, which is the passion of anger, is at root a malice toward
> himself: he is self-resenting, dissatisfied with and indignant toward his own soul, as we see on the
> Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11. His anger has many nuances. It covers the spectrum from
> an underlying resentfulness thinly concealed beneath a veneer of politeness to violent outbursts of
> pure rage. Along with his sense of being wrong, directly experiencing his anger is a One’s most
> avoided experience, and this is why anger also appears on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10.
> Most Ones repress their anger unless they are convinced that it is objective, and then they feel
> justified in giving vent to it. Some Ones simply seem perpetually annoyed, peeved, and irritated by
> everything and everyone, while others have flashes of righteous indignation which feel fully warranted
> because of the “obvious” badness, meanness, or unworthiness of another. Some Ones are like pressure
> cookers who keep a lid on their rage until it reaches critical mass and they blow the gasket. They may
> appear calm and serene most of the time, but in the privacy of their own homes with those they feel
> comfortable with, they explode in critical tirades or violent rages complete with thrown dishes,
> slamming of doors, if not physical violence.
> The anger may manifest as a general attitude of faultfinding, criticality, nit-picking, and fussiness
> in which the One emanates the message that things are just not up to snuff; or a One may point out all
> of your flaws and offer supposedly helpful “constructive criticism,” given for the best of reasons—
> your own good—which cuts nonetheless to the quick. They may be constantly correcting your
> grammar or making it painfully clear to you which unspoken rule you are breaking. They tend to be
> preachy and take the role of teacher or exemplar. They may give you unsolicited advice—which they
> really feel is for your own good—in which they communicate the obvious fact, in their eyes, that they
> know what is right and you clearly do not and are screwing up in one way or another. Ones may not
> recognize their criticalness and advice giving as adversarial and belligerent, but the hurt and anger
> triggered in those on the receiving end leave no doubt about the One’s underlying and often
> unconscious aggression.
> It is easy for a One to recognize and align himself with his anger if he feels justified, i.e., that he is
> right and correct, or if his anger can be made into a cause in which God or goodness appears to be on
> his side. And it is relatively easy for him to feel that his anger is warranted when the wrongness
> appears to reside firmly outside of himself, as it seems to a One who has done little introspection and
> inner work. Internally the “bad” parts of himself are pushed away, and so they also appear to be
> outside of the good self he takes himself to be, and his aggression is directed just as mercilessly
> against these bad parts as it is toward the badness he sees in others. The more conscious a One
> becomes, however, the more he will see that his underlying critical and angry attitude is itself an
> issue. The compulsive assessing, carping, and fits of pique themselves become an enormous source of
> anguish to a One. His internal self-criticism and relentless self-blame, which become obvious once he
> turns his attention from outside himself to what is going on inside, in time come to be felt as brutal
> and hurtful, and perhaps not serving what is good after all.
> Just as the aggressive drive of the instinctual self becomes distorted into the various shades of
> anger, the libidinal drive also undergoes a twist: sexuality becomes a highly conflictual area for Ones.
> It is viewed as naughty, if not downright bad and immoral, since there is so much unbridled instinctual
> energy involved and so little control. If sex can be justified as fulfilling some higher purpose than
> pure mutual pleasure, such as doing one’s duty to procreate for the good of one’s nation or religion,
> then it is tolerable—if it is not enjoyed too much.
> Physical pleasure is itself subversive and suspect to most Ones, certainly those of previous
> generations. Contemporary Ones tend to be more liberal sexually but nonetheless still have difficulty
> and often guilt about fully allowing themselves pleasure. Enjoying himself, being carefree, and—God
> forbid!—hedonistic smack of amorality to many a One, and so are forbidden territory. Fully allowing
> himself to feel saturated in pleasure seems sinful. Underlying this judgment is fear—of his superego
> ruthlessly judging him, of enormous guilt, and of losing control—and so is not allowed. It is as though
> allowing pleasure would be opening Pandora’s box and would lead to becoming a slave of his animal
> instincts and therefore perpetually running amok. There is a self-denying, self-punishing, or selfcastigating
> and penitent quality about a One’s sexual inhibition and restraint. As a result, a One’s
> sexuality remains largely unintegrated, remaining raw, crude, juvenile, and often quite awkward. It
> often retains the feel of a schoolboy or schoolgirl doing something very lewd and nasty that they seem
> not too familiar with but are nonetheless tantalized by.
> The disparaged and thus suppressed instinctual drives sometimes break through in Ones in episodes
> of uncontrolled and uncontrollable acting out alluded to earlier. In the extreme, this is what happens in
> the fiery bouts of rage mentioned above, and in the scandals that surface from time to time in which
> some prominent member of Congress or the British Parliament, for example, turns out to have a
> propensity for kinky sex with prostitutes or transvestites; or when a priest is revealed to have had
> ongoing affairs with his female parishioners, particularly the married ones, or to have molested his
> choirboys; when the proselytizing twelve-stepper disappears for days at a time on drunken binges
> about which he remembers nothing later; and when the antiwar activist turns out to have a long history
> of spousal abuse. Less extreme ways that a One’s suppressed drives leak out might be in dreams of
> debauchery, fantasies of lewd orgies, reading steamy romance novels, or watching X-rated videos or
> television while professing to deplore licentiousness.
> Ones have what is clinically called an obsessional character. They are methodical, organized,
> collected, productive, and hardworking. They tend to be compulsively neat and tidy, wanting
> everything to be both clean and in its proper place. This can reach the extreme of being truly
> obsessive, in which the person is driven by an inordinate need for order, is miserly and totally
> inflexible—as was the character Melvin Udall in the film As Good As It Gets. Some Ones are so
> obsessed with doing things perfectly and thoroughly that it takes them forever to get anything
> accomplished, while others rush through things out of anxiousness about their capacity to do the job
> well and also out of a desire to unburden themselves of the responsibility. This same insecurity may
> arise around decision making: fearing that they will make the wrong choice, they often procrastinate.
> All of these characteristics are, from a clinical point of view, of the obsessive-compulsive variety, and
> are the manifestations of deep superego and id conflicts, which we have discussed earlier. Seen from
> this angle, the obsessive tendencies in a One are attempts to clean himself up and make himself pure,
> as well as a means of expiating the profound inner guilt for his “imperfections.”
> The preoccupation with cleanliness belies an attempt to eradicate an inner sense of uncleanness, just
> as the preoccupation with orderliness bespeaks a fending off of internal chaos resulting from
> unintegrated instinctual energies. This attempt to keep an anxiety-provoking state or emotion firmly
> locked away in the unconscious by overemphasizing its opposite brings us to and describes the
> defense mechanism of this ennea-type, which is called reaction formation. In reaction formation,
> whatever emotion or behavior we believe to be dangerous to feel or act upon gets pushed out of
> consciousness, and an opposite and acceptable emotion or behavior replaces it. If feeling hatred is
> taboo, for example, we might defend against the inner threat of feeling it by experiencing love instead.
> On the other hand, if we are afraid of love, we might substitute rejection, indifference, or hatred in its
> stead. Reaction formation lies behind the mechanism central to Ones in which the sense of being bad
> is warded off by identifying with their superego and seeing themselves as good and others as bad. It
> also underlies the One’s continual staving off of instinctual temptations through morally pitting
> themselves against them. As Charles Brenner says about reaction formation:
> One consequence of our knowledge of the operation of this defense mechanism is that whenever we
> observe an attitude of this sort which is unrealistic or excessive, we wonder whether it may not be so
> overemphasized as a defense against its opposite. Thus we should expect that a devoted pacifist or
> antivivisectionist, for instance, has unconscious fantasies of cruelty and hatred which appear to his
> ego to be particularly dangerous.4
> Ultimately Ones are defending against a deep inner sense of wrongness though imitating purity and
> goodness.
> Keeping at bay forbidden urges and the perception of forbidden flaws requires of Ones a great deal
> of inner discipline and self-control. The attempts to control others and the environment are a mirror of
> this internal checking, curbing, and restraining of themselves. The result is a characteristic stiffness
> and lack of spontaneity. This may make them appear stilted in their movements, manner, or speech as
> they carefully and deliberately rein themselves in and hold themselves back. Their thinking may
> reflect this tendency, making them stick to known and accepted ideas, and not venturing into anything
> more creative. Their ideas tend to become rigid and fixed, with little room for innovation or
> experimentation. What does not clearly fall within their concept of rightness is threatening, and so
> playing with ideas that have not found their way into categories of right or wrong, good or bad tends to
> be anxiety provoking. When a new idea or insight does arise, it becomes a new standard, reflecting
> their tendency to make rules out of truth. They are sticklers for following the rules and the law
> dogmatically, disregarding the uniqueness of a particular situation. There is for them a certain security
> in methodically following preestablished guidelines, and a corresponding insecurity that arises in
> questioning underlying principles.
> Energetically and emotionally the self-control of Ones leads to a particular kind of rigidity and
> contraction. While some Ones do not experience or express negative emotions like pain and fear, even
> in those who do, there is a characteristic lack of ease, relaxation, flexibility, vulnerability, and
> softness about them, a sense that their guard is always up. They tend to have a tight-jawed and tightlipped
> quality, related to curbing their wants and stopping the expression of their anger, which, along
> with their propensity for advice giving and preaching, accounts for the mouth being the part of the
> body associated with this type. At the extreme, they seem to others pinched, severe, austere,
> straitlaced, formal, humorless, prosaic, and stiff-necked. To his detriment during his presidency, the
> persona of Jimmy Carter exemplifies this One-ish quality; and Hillary Rodham Clinton is sometimes
> perceived in this way. Other exemplars displaying less of this stiffness who were or are probably Ones
> include Jimmy Stewart and Katharine Hepburn and, more currently, Anthony Edwards, Barbra
> Streisand, Nicole Kidman, and Cybill Shepherd. Dana Carvey’s Church Lady is a great caricature of a
> One.
> Ones tend to be inflexible and uncompromising when they believe they are correct. There is little
> room for discussion and disagreement with a One once they have made up their minds about
> something, and they are tenacious once fixed on something. It is perhaps for this reason that the
> animal associated with this type is the dog, who can chew on a bone that cannot be wrested from him.
> Dogs are also unswervingly loyal, as Ones are, to what they consider right.
> Ones, then, come across as good, clean, nice people—with a lot of latent hostility and frustration.
> They are compulsively honest, the George Washingtons who cannot tell a lie—even if the truth hurts
> another. They are dependable, trustworthy, and hardworking—righteously so. They are earnest and
> clean-faced—to the point of plainness, as exemplified in the farming couple in the famous painting
> American Gothic. They are people - driven by good intentions—even if you don’t want their charity—
> and high moral standards—to the point of becoming puritanical.
> Puritanism itself is a One-ish phenomenon. The American Puritans of the seventeenth century broke
> away from the Anglican Church, which was far too liberal for them, and brought their religious fervor
> to the New World. They believed that God is absolutely sovereign, that man is totally depraved and
> completely dependent on God’s grace for redemption. Believing themselves to be God’s elect with a
> mission to enforce His Will in the nascent commonwealth, they dictated colonial politics until their
> influence declined in the eighteenth century. These Pilgrims, the Founding Fathers of the United
> States, are the source of the very One-ish current in American culture: our strong sense of morality, of
> doing what is good, right, and just, as well as our tendency to act as the world’s moral enforcer. The
> current hyperinterest in and scrutiny of presidential sexuality, which is inconceivable and incongruous
> to Europeans, for instance, who do not have such a history of moral aspiration, reflects this One-ish
> cultural strain. American idealism and emphasis on being good coexist uneasily with the other
> dominant cultural current, our Three-ish drive for personal success and gain with its self-serving
> amorality, as mentioned in the previous chapter.
> One-ish behavior is also associated with Victorianism, named for Queen Victoria, although Prince
> Albert is really responsible for the prudishness and austerity associated with the era. He imposed strict
> decorum at the English court and infused propriety and primness into British cultural mores. The
> English culture seems to be a mix of One and Four tendencies—its emphasis on social form and
> decorum, and its aesthetic inclinations resulting from the latter—with its current queen, Elizabeth, and
> perhaps Elizabeth I as well, seeming to be Ennea-type Ones.
> More currently, we see One-ish phenomena in the right-to-life movement, whose defense of life
> paradoxically does not prevent extremists from killing doctors who perform abortions or blowing up
> Planned Parenthood centers. A more widespread example would be advocates for social reform who
> have very little consideration for actual people. We see it whenever there is a group who believes that
> they are right and have God on their side and pit themselves against another group whom they see as
> bad or wrong. Bertolt Brecht may have been summarizing One-ish philosophy when he wrote, “We
> who wanted a world based on kindness could not ourselves be kind.”
> We have seen that the personality traits of each of the ennea-types mimic and attempt to
> replicate a particular spiritual state, as though the soul were attempting to reconnect with the lost Holy
> Idea by shaping itself into a copy of a state that seems to embody this missing Idea. In the case of
> Ennea-type One, this state—the idealized Aspect—is called Brilliancy in the terminology of the
> Diamond Approach. Brilliancy is the intelligence of Being. It is a particular presence that is like a
> flash of lightning or the sparkling of sunlight on the ocean. It has a brightness to it, an illuminating
> quality, a radiance, a clarity, an acuity. It is Being penetrating with its intelligence, and discerning,
> understanding, and synthesizing what it encounters. We ordinarily think of intelligence or brightness
> as being purely mental qualities, but here we see that true intelligence is something more than that. It
> is the intelligence of our souls when we are truly being, when we are fully present. Being fully present
> means that we are embodied and open emotionally to what our consciousness comes in contact with,
> and when our intelligence penetrates what we encounter, we experience this bright presence.
> The state of Brilliancy also has the qualities of purity, timelessness, and refinement about it. Like
> the pure radiance in a flash of insight, Brilliancy illumines the soul with understanding in a way that is
> clean, clear, and right to the point. One of its central characteristics is its synthetic capacity, in which
> all of the elements of a situation form a unity in the mind, all the various threads merge into one
> understanding. Brilliancy is the source of the human ability to synthesize—it is what we experience in
> the moment that all the elements of a situation come together and form a whole within us. It is also
> the source of true wisdom. The purity of Brilliancy opens the heart of a One. His heart’s desire is to
> see purely and completely and to experience himself as pure and complete. Brilliancy holds for him
> the promise of connecting him with his lost sense of perfection. It is the Essential Aspect or state of
> consciousness that feels like the embodiment of the lost Holy Perfection.
> Imitation Brilliancy takes the form of having to have the correct answers and needing to be right,
> and of being a know-it-all who thinks in a way that is divorced from experiential contact. Such
> knowing is intellectual, of the mind only, and has little to do with the situation at hand. When we are
> being falsely brilliant, we are convinced that our view is the correct one, that how we see things is how
> they are. We are taking a position of asserting our identity as someone who has the correct knowledge.
> Such preconceived ideas can only be based on opinion and on the past, and this “someone” we take
> ourselves to be is inevitably a mental construct, and so not immediate.
> Seen from this angle, Ennea-type One looks uncannily like a facsimile of Brilliancy. The overriding
> concern about being right and being good, which assumes that there is only one right answer or way to
> be and that they need to figure it out and live it, as well as the overarching characteristic of meeting
> life with preconceived standards, illustrates this. These central traits of Ones are distortions of the
> direct knowing that arises when we contact the moment in a direct and experiential way, with a
> freshness devoid of preconceptions. The One’s drive to be pure is an emulation of the purity inherent
> in the experience of Brilliancy. Their proclivity to impose their values and standards upon others is an
> emulation of the quality of our true intelligence, which knows no boundaries and can penetrate into
> anything we wish to understand. Their sharpness, whether in manner or in criticality, emulates the
> acuity and precision of Brilliancy. Ironically, many Ones, such as Hillary Rodham Clinton, have a
> shiny, scrubbed, and clean appearance, reflecting the luminosity of this essential quality that they are
> attempting to embody.
> To transform their consciousness, Ennea-type Ones need to approach their inner process as well
> as their outer lives with an attitude of serenity, the virtue of this point, as we see on the Enneagram of
> Virtues in Diagram 1. What does serenity mean in this context? Primarily it means not going along
> with the personality’s characteristic tendency to react against what we are experiencing. When we are
> identified with our personality, instead of simply allowing and being with our experience, we try to do
> something about, to, or with it. We cannot just leave it alone and be open to touching it directly with
> our consciousness so that understanding can arise. This is the pitting of oneself against reality which,
> as we have seen, is Ichazo’s definition of anger, the passion of this ennea-type. When we oppose our
> experience, we are simply reinforcing the “I” that is reacting. We are, in other words, strengthening
> our personality and our identification with it.
> While all personality types share this kind of reactivity, it is most central to Ones and is the biggest
> stumbling block in their inner work. It is very difficult for Ones to relate to inner experiences or
> perceptions about themselves without immediately evaluating them, i.e., attempting to ascertain
> whether they are good or bad, on the basis of judgments and evaluations rooted in the past. This is a
> reflexive reaction for Ones, a central and compulsive inner movement, and it is hard for them to
> imagine responding to their experience in any other way. If a One decides that what he is experiencing
> is bad, he tries to change it so that it is good. If he decides that a perception about himself is bad, he
> becomes defensive about it. In either case, he does not leave the experience alone, meeting it as it is,
> without an attitude toward it. Although the focus remains primarily on what is not right about his
> experience, sometimes what he encounters he decides is good—at least momentarily. If so, he tries to
> hold on to the experience, and that clutching disengages him from it. Any reaction to our experience—
> whether moving toward it, away from it, or trying to alter it—creates a contraction in the soul and
> blocks our capacity to learn from it. Our Brilliancy cannot function and we cannot understand
> ourselves more deeply, which is what is necessary for our consciousness to grow and change.
> Anger blinds us to the truth. When we are in its grip, we are defending ourselves against what we
> are reacting to. We are trying to push it away or push at it to change it, and we are caught in the grip of
> our subjective reality. We are supporting who we take ourselves to be, and we are siding with and
> defending our identifications. Rather than trying to understand what button inside of our own psyches
> has been triggered, we are set against the object of our wrath.
> If we are serious about discovering the truth of who we are, an orientation of serenity toward our
> experience is necessary. Serenity means meeting the moment with openness of heart and mind—
> accepting whatever arises within or without—and not contracting against it. Rather than habitually
> judging or evaluating our experience, we simply open, allowing ourselves to be touched by what is
> there. This necessitates allowing ourselves not to know, which in turn means defending against our
> superego’s demands for certainty. It also means letting go of our beliefs about what should or
> shouldn’t be happening, and about what is good or bad. It means not protecting ourselves from what
> we consider bad, unpleasant, or uncomfortable. It means letting our consciousness fully meet our
> experience so that we can know directly what it is that we are in touch with. As we do this, we open to
> the truth of the moment, and so our consciousness can be impacted by it. Rather than attempting to
> preserve a positive sense of self, we see ourselves as we really are. Without our judgments, what we
> find is just what is, unobscured with veils from our past.
> So for a One, a serene attitude toward himself initiates specific stages of inner transformation.
> These stages begin with perceiving his identification with the superego—seeing in bold relief the
> pattern of judgments and standards, seeing their arbitrariness, and the suffering, pain, and torment
> within that they cause. He needs to understand why this need for standards is so strong, which will
> mean understanding it as a defense against experiencing himself as bad as well as against deeper
> layers of his personality, and as his hope for return to the lost bliss of perfection. The psychodynamics
> —the influences of his history in creating this pattern—also need to be seen and digested. His habitual
> defensive attitude toward what he experiences as criticism and toward what he considers not good
> about himself will also need to be perceived and understood. This will eventually lead to a relaxing of
> the need to evaluate his experience and set himself in opposition to it. Gradually as he becomes more
> open and nonreactive—i. e., more serene—the parts of himself that he has been judging and defending
> against will begin to reveal themselves. Emotional states that he has viewed as negative will arise that
> he increasingly learns to tolerate and feel fully, and these in turn begin to be transformed. The more
> that he embraces and accepts these aspects of himself, the more his soul relaxes, and his ego activity
> stills with the sense that there is nothing to do and nothing to fix inside.
> Ichazo’s definition of the virtue of serenity might be useful here: “It is emotional calm, expressed
> by a body at ease with itself and receptive to the energy of the Kath [the belly center]. Serenity is not a
> mental attitude but the natural expression of wholeness in a human being secure in his capacities and
> totally self-contained.” So rather than attempting to be perfect, he experiences his completeness, and
> so is serene. Access to the belly center comes through integrating his instinctual layer. The source of
> many of his drives and feelings, this layer will come to the surface of consciousness and needs to be
> digested through awareness and understanding of it. As he does this, these deep drives that he has been
> so busily defending against become more and more refined and less and less compulsive.
> Beneath his object relations and the animal-like parts of the soul, he encounters empty places that
> he initially interprets as meaning that he is bad and not good enough. To the extent that he does not
> react to these holes, his consciousness can investigate and penetrate them. A profound inner
> spaciousness arises to which the labels “good” and “bad” have no relevance. Beyond the obscuring
> structures that clouded his consciousness, the vibrancy and aliveness of Being gradually shine
> through. Integrating these aspects of himself makes him and his life increasingly feel more rich, threedimensional,
> real, full, spontaneous, unpredictable, and wondrous.
> This process is neither linear nor rapid, and while each individual One’s traveling of this territory
> will have individual variations, these are the rough outlines. The receptivity and openness to inner
> experience, which are the attitude of serenity, are necessary at each juncture. At the same time,
> serenity becomes more and more of an inner state as a One’s inner work progresses. The Latin root of
> the word serene means “clear, unclouded, and untroubled.” This is how a One becomes as he
> progressively ceases reacting to his experience. Who he is beyond the clouds of the personality—the
> veils of his historical self—becomes clearer and clearer and he sees reality increasingly more
> objectively, as it is. In the process, his consciousness calms down and he becomes less easily ruffled.
> His heart opens, his mind relaxes, and his perception becomes more transparent—truly brilliant.
> Perceiving with love and enjoyment instead of judgment, he can settle into the moment and just be.
> More and more consistently, he abides in a deep inner quietude and is at peace with himself and the
> world. He can at last know his inherent and unalterable perfection.


 @hoopla, this, particularly the bold bit, is what I was trying to talk about earlier. Or really similar, if I'm understanding it properly. I think it must be a Type 1 thing.


----------



## Psychopomp

fair phantom said:


> there are healthy levels, and going too much higher or lower is a problem. Low self esteem and confidence can be crippling and self-destructive.
> 
> @_hoopla_ I don't know. PI think Ne doms often hate small talk. @_Greyhart_ ? Part of it is that people said I appeared extroverted in my video and I don't meet @_arkigos_ ' standard for Fi-dom. I wound up settling on ENFP after a rebellion against typing altogether.
> 
> I feel a bit like an mbti Rorscharch test. :highly_amused:


Some of your posts have struck me as Ti/Fe. That's all. The other 90% of what I have seen from you shows that you are a feeler... I am just advocating on the behalf of the devil because you never know. It's a good thing, right?

Can you link me that video (or the post or whatever)? I didn't note its passing.


----------



## Immolate

@_Greyhart_ I came home exhausted from a family thing, I was going to nap, but then I watched the video and I can't nap anymore :ssad:


@_ElliCat_ I think you asked me how I deal with anger? @_fair phantom_? @_laurie17_? Hm... I've been thinking of what to say, and then I remembered an exchange I had with my brother. We were talking one day and he noticed a black mark on my wall. He asked me what it was, what happened? I said, "Well, you see, I got very angry one day and threw the remote at the wall." He stared at me with something like shock in his eyes. "You threw something? At the wall? That's not you." It's true, I don't know what possessed me to throw a remote at the wall. Generally speaking, my worst anger is directed inward, I'm angry at myself. If the anger is directed outward, I tend to feel guilt and shame because I've potentially hurt someone by losing control of myself. It's best to have control.


[Edit] We have an @arkigos sighting.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> @hoopla, this, particularly the bold bit, is what I was trying to talk about earlier. Or really similar, if I'm understanding it properly. I think it must be a Type 1 thing.


I won't speak in terms of enneagram but that strikes me as Pi in general. Discerning Si vs Ni can be difficult as both are removed from reality in their own way (I always have been). You have to think about if it stems from objective reality or objective conceptuality. 

Fair phantom is tricky and the only thing I can say is Ji strikes me as stronger than Je and Ne is clear. I believe Ne is stronger than Si.

I think the problem with women is they look more Feelery than men as a default, so T/F can be difficult. I think there is a pressure for women to not look too academic and I know I struggled with that. Luckily with the advancement of technology this is starting to dwindle. I saw a video about young girls developing an interest in science and I thought that was so cool as there has been much discouragement for them to pursue such interests in the past. Some of it is also biological differences.


----------



## fair phantom

@SugarPlum How can I help? :bee:



shinynotshiny said:


> @_Greyhart_ I came home exhausted from a family thing, I was going to nap, but then I watched the video and I can't nap anymore :ssad:
> 
> 
> @_ElliCat_ I think you asked me how I deal with anger? @_fair phantom_? @_laurie17_? Hm... I've been thinking of what to say, and then I remembered an exchange I had with my brother. We were talking one day and he noticed a black mark on my wall. He asked me what it was, what happened? I said, "Well, you see, I got very angry one day and threw the remote at the wall." He stared at me with something like shock in his eyes. "You threw something? At the wall? That's not you." It's true, I don't know what possessed me to throw a remote at the wall. Generally speaking, my worst anger is directed inward, I'm angry at myself. If the anger is directed outward, I tend to feel guilt and shame because I've potentially hurt someone by losing control of myself. It's best to have control.
> 
> 
> [Edit] We have an @arkigos sighting.


Yep, sounds 1. 



arkigos said:


> Some of your posts have struck me as Ti/Fe. That's all. The other 90% of what I have seen from you shows that you are a feeler... I am just advocating on the behalf of the devil because you never know. It's a good thing, right?
> 
> Can you link me that video (or the post or whatever)? I didn't note its passing.


Indeed, it's a good thing. It's important to consider the possibilities. 

Beware the babbling brook: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/558426-video-questionnaire-_.html


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> I won't speak in terms of enneagram but that strikes me as Pi in general. Discerning Si vs Ni can be difficult as both are removed from reality in their own way (I always have been). You have to think about if it stems from objective reality or objective conceptuality.


Is objective conceptuality is Ne? I'm struggling calling Ne objective anything.



shinynotshiny said:


> @_Greyhart_ I came home exhausted from a family thing, I was going to nap, but then I watched the video and I can't nap anymore :ssad:


My favorite part that I took out of the whole concept, is that we are all just born and already dead. Beautiful idea. :skellie:

@SugarPlum I like archetype name "Bohemian" fits you somehow 



arkigos said:


> Some of your posts have struck me as Ti/Fe. That's all. The other 90% of what I have seen from you shows that you are a feeler... I am just advocating on the behalf of the devil because you never know. It's a good thing, right?
> 
> Can you link me that video (or the post or whatever)? I didn't note its passing.


He speaks.










I think @fair phantom 's "thinkiness" steams from enneagram priorities  Ravenclaw power


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Fair phantom is tricky and the only thing I can say is Ji strikes me as stronger than Je and Ne is clear. I believe Ne is stronger than Si.
> 
> I think the problem with women is they look more Feelery than men as a default, so T/F can be difficult. I think there is a pressure for women to not look too academic and I know I struggled with that. Luckily with the advancement of technology this is starting to dwindle. I saw a video about young girls developing an interest in science and I thought that was so cool as there has been much discouragement for them to pursue such interests in the past. Some of it is also biological differences.


This is true. I also had personal reasons to be more of a feeler, since most of the time it was just me and my mom, an ESFJ that basically ONLY used Fe and Si. Trying to use logic with her tended to just make her angry.


----------



## Dangerose

Question: could extreme discomfort with the body/bodily functions be a sign of Si, or of not having Si (Si PoLR?)?
For instance, I hate the sound of chewing. Not because of the sound (which is irritating) but more because it reminds me of what the food is doing. I like eating food for the flavor but if at any point I remember what it is, it becomes distasteful and weird to me. I hate beinng told to breathe a certain way (i.e. I hate yoga and pilates), I feel really uncomfortable when I am told to 'listen to my body' like _no_, it is not a musical instrument. Or medical things, like...I have this friend (maybe ENTP) who's in medical school, and she'll really never stop telling my other friend (who I've deemed ENTJ) about...fistulas and blood-clots and all sorts of lovely things, and it's really...really not pleasant. It's just like...at no point do I want to think of anything my body is doing. Or anyone else's body. It's horrible and it's weird.

I can see an argument for this being a sign _of_ Si, but I can also see an argument for this being a sign _against_ Si. Discuss.


----------



## Ninjaws

fair phantom said:


> This is true. I also had personal reasons to be more of a feeler, since most of the time it was just me and my mom, an ESFJ that basically ONLY used Fe and Si. Trying to use logic with her tended to just make her angry.


My ESTJ mother is the opposite. Don't get those filthy feelings near her. 
Whenever my sister hugs her she pulls a face that says "Get the hell off of me". XD


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Is objective conceptuality is Ne? I'm struggling calling Ne objective anything


When I say Objective I mean that Ne reaches out in broad strokes and full branches... like my Ni dom friend is totally the opposite. For instance:



> I like to focus on one thing at a time, I get tunnel vision, but I need to get stimulation from it. It can't be boring, I have to be actively interested and it's really difficult to find things you can have that kind of passion towards.





> I realize that I'm fueled by consuming and mastering subjective dynamics.


...Yeah no I can't work that way because too many things strike... Ne is worldly in a way that is removed from reality. Oxymoron. 

I only read what @Oswin bolded but I suppose I should read all of it. I am in the process of a) researching phytic acid b) re-watching Fair Phantom's video. I was going to reply to Lucho's post and pick Se and Ni out of it but he PMed me so we've already talked about it. I also have Shiny to reply to.

I don't like this thread sometimes. Or my brain. It's flighty.


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> I think @fair phantom 's "thinkiness" steams from enneagram priorities  Ravenclaw power












Ravenclaw Power!


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> Question: could extreme discomfort with the body/bodily functions be a sign of Si, or of not having Si (Si PoLR?)?
> For instance, I hate the sound of chewing. Not because of the sound (which is irritating) but more because it reminds me of what the food is doing. I like eating food for the flavor but if at any point I remember what it is, it becomes distasteful and weird to me. I hate beinng told to breathe a certain way (i.e. I hate yoga and pilates), I feel really uncomfortable when I am told to 'listen to my body' like _no_, it is not a musical instrument. Or medical things, like...I have this friend (maybe ENTP) who's in medical school, and she'll really never stop telling my other friend (who I've deemed ENTJ) about...fistulas and blood-clots and all sorts of lovely things, and it's really...really not pleasant. It's just like...at no point do I want to think of anything my body is doing. Or anyone else's body. It's horrible and it's weird.
> 
> I can see an argument for this being a sign _of_ Si, but I can also see an argument for this being a sign _against_ Si. Discuss.


So curious about this.

I have a huge blood vessels/heart thing,I freak out,feel sick and dizzy whenever I think about any of it.
That's the most extreme example but other things make me uncomfortable too,like food and having to do this or that,breathe certain way,etc


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> We have an @arkigos sighting.


CAPTURE HIM. He is rare and worth a lot on the black market.

In other news, I took the Enneagram test posted somewhere on this thread. It told me I'm a 2x3 core. Once I got done laughing, I went back to my cave.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> @_Greyhart_ I came home exhausted from a family thing, I was going to nap, but then I watched the video and I can't nap anymore :ssad:
> 
> 
> @_ElliCat_ I think you asked me how I deal with anger? @_fair phantom_? @_laurie17_? Hm... I've been thinking of what to say, and then I remembered an exchange I had with my brother. We were talking one day and he noticed a black mark on my wall. He asked me what it was, what happened? I said, "Well, you see, I got very angry one day and threw the remote at the wall." He stared at me with something like shock in his eyes. "You threw something? At the wall? That's not you." It's true, I don't know what possessed me to throw a remote at the wall. Generally speaking, my worst anger is directed inward, I'm angry at myself. If the anger is directed outward, I tend to feel guilt and shame because I've potentially hurt someone by losing control of myself. It's best to have control.
> 
> 
> [Edit] We have an @arkigos sighting.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> This is true. I also had personal reasons to be more of a feeler, since most of the time it was just me and my mom, an ESFJ that basically ONLY used Fe and Si. Trying to use logic with her tended to just make her angry.


I typed my mother as an ESFJ and she is very clearly a Je dom but sometimes I wonder if perhaps I typed her incorrectly and she's a Te dom because we seem to approach life so differently? We are the same in many ways and so different in others. She thinks I'm an "arguer" and she seems to just want people to collectively share, so any alternate views or questions is a "fight" even though I intend civil discussions. She's also more Je-Si too (there are some that are more Je-Ne). Then again I could have heavier Ti (even though sometimes I wonder if I'm lying to myself and I'm really an Fe dom; it's been suggested and I think there's a good argument for it), and two Si types can clash if their view of how things ought to be contrast.

But yes the anger issue is central to our relationship too.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I did not realize that she had this mad drawing talent when I invited her to this forum.


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> So curious about this.
> 
> I have a huge blood vessels/heart thing,I freak out,feel sick and dizzy whenever I think about any of it.
> That's the most extreme example but other things make me uncomfortable too,like food and having to do this or that,breathe certain way,etc


My ENTJ friend actually faints at the sight of blood. I don't, but I will start writhing inside when I have to look at other people/my wrists, see the veins, I shudder as I type. Maybe it _is_ Si PoLR.


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> But yeah, I can feel sort-of...embarrassed? about people (including me) breathing audibly, coughing, that sort of thing. Which is irrational, it's just not a big deal, but it feels...I don't even know.


Exactly XD
It's not really _gross_, it's much more than simply gross but it's more subtle too.Very weird XD

So,we still don't know what it means regarding type? :frustrating:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I was looking up the E vs I video for @Ninjaws and came across this 






I probably shouldn't comment since I don't have time to watch it all the way... but yeah, I always get a funky vibe when people try to act like they are socially oppressed for their personality traits. I can see what it means lightly - in America for example I think that by MBTI preferences it is preferable to be an E-S-x-J - but it's not like oh no you're always going to be picked on if you're an INxP! There are real issues with people being oppressed in this world, but not for personality preferences. 

(Also, I just have this hatred of TED talks because they've done a number that belittle the traumatic things that have happened to me and lol I don't know who approves of these things but whoever approved of those ones were just being flat-out ignorant.) (Not to mention their tones. We act like these people are the brightest and their words are always just enlightenment, yet too often of a sometimes they say harmful things that few people critique because _oh!_ It's a TED Talk, of course they're perfect! Bah.) (Anyway)


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> I can be a similar way, but I think partly it's a being-judged thing. Like, my dad's one of those people who will always take it upon himself to say like, "Wow that looks so decadent, wonder how many calories are in that!" or "Look at you, eating healthy!"...which either way is just unpleasant, so I learned that it's easier to eat in private and I became worried that people would be keeping tabs of what I was eating when and comparing it to my weight or something.


Yeah, mom said she felt embarrassed. Myself I know I have shitty table manners and talk while eating but eh, whatever.



Curiphant said:


> By the way, I kind of silently transitioned into ISFP and I asked only one or two people's opinions on it.
> 
> If anyone wants to comment for or against this typing, they may ^^


People probably agree.



LuchoIsLurking said:


> You all need to go out and try get drunk like I did. I failed miserably, but still, it was fun. No sex though, which sucked.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


I get sappy and sleepy when drunk. I dislike drinking because of it. >_>


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I was looking up the E vs I video for @Ninjaws and came across this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I probably shouldn't comment since I don't have time to watch it all the way... but yeah, I always get a funky vibe when people try to act like they are socially oppressed for their personality traits. I can see what it means lightly - in America for example I think that by MBTI preferences it is preferable to be an E-S-x-J - but it's not like oh no you're always going to be picked on if you're an INxP! There are real issues with people being oppressed in this world, but not for personality preferences.
> 
> (Also, I just have this hatred of TED talks because they've done a number that belittle the traumatic things that have happened to me and lol I don't know who approves of these things but whoever approved of those ones were just being flat-out ignorant.) (Not to mention their tones. We act like these people are the brightest and their words are always just enlightenment, yet too often of a sometimes they say harmful things that few people critique because _oh!_ It's a TED Talk, of course they're perfect! Bah.) (Anyway)


My English teacher made us watch a ton of those and a lot of the time they were just common sense 

But guise, the member count is higher than the guest count for once


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> My English teacher made us watch a ton of those and a lot of the time they were just common sense
> 
> But guise, the member count is higher than the guest count for once


We've lost our appeal.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I get sappy and sleepy when drunk. I dislike drinking because of it. >_>


I get loud, apparently :untroubled:

I don't care for it, either. Vigilance.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Living dead said:


> I'm a huuuge non-vegan but I can't eat meat that looks like...well,what it is lol
> Like,whole chicken,WTF??
> Or fish with that little tale,eyes,etc lol
> And eggs are so awful when you think about it(or find...I'd rather not go there lol)


What about eggs is awful? For me it is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling

So I try to boycott eggs unless from a local small farm... but it's hard to know if my eggs from my farmer's market adhere to culling standards as free range farms still do. I suppose I can ask?


----------



## Max

*Lucho facepalms and gradually backs away, blushing.*

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## fair phantom

*feels self-conscious about breathing. and eating. and existing.* :disturbed:


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> *Lucho facepalms and gradually backs away, blushing.*
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


Why? Bc you like to drink? Trust me I act far more embarrassingly by _not_ drinking. Jolly party atmosphere goes into my head.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Ah, I love mentions. I haven't read the full context of this conversation, just this post by the way. Does this imply Fi-Se could be worse than "don't seem too bad"? XP
> 
> Oh look how embarrassing. This quote is on the same page. I thought this was several pages back whoops.
> 
> But yeah XSFPs are demons.


Haha, lovely, we're demons, good to know. :wink:


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Why? Bc you like to drink? Trust me I act far more embarrassingly by _not_ drinking. Jolly party atmosphere goes into my head.


No.. just some people on here and irl. They drive me loco as hell. Loco en la cabeza. Muy loco. Ugh. Lol. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Barakiel

tine said:


> It's expensive to buy good parts!


Completely and utterly worth it, though. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I get loud, apparently :untroubled:
> 
> I don't care for it, either. Vigilance.


I'm the only person I know who doesn't like most alcohol, maybe it's cause I'm new to it, or whatever.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Who knows Enneagram here 

Can anyone see 1 core for me? Over 9?


----------



## Darkbloom

hoopla said:


> What about eggs is awful? For me it is this:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling
> 
> So I try to boycott eggs unless from a local small farm... but it's hard to know if my eggs from my farmer's market adhere to culling standards as free range farms still do. I suppose I can ask?


I agree,as I said,I'm no vegan but I think the least they can do is not waste lives so pointlessly and in such way

What I meant though is almost alive chicken inside an egg(which at least proves here egg industry isn't so "advanced",at least that's a good thing I guess)


----------



## Immolate

@alittlebear I watched the video and I don't think there's anything wrong with her argument. It's not so much about oppression as it is about society favoring a specific set of behaviors and way of living. Some people find it hard to navigate through life or relationships because of this. I also don't think it's entirely accurate to call introversion a personality preference. It isn't something a person prefers/chooses. It just is.

@fair phantom


----------



## Ninjaws

I've never enjoyed losing control and therefore I've never enjoyed alcohol.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Who knows Enneagram here
> 
> Can anyone see 1 core for me? Over 9?


No. I really can't. There is definitely an influence, but core? Nope.


----------



## Darkbloom

Ninjaws said:


> I've never enjoyed losing control and therefore I've never enjoyed alcohol.


This.

And it's not even a fear thing "OMG I'm not allowed to drink,I'm gonna lose control" but I simply don't see a point and would rather like,make others drink or pretend I'm drunk for fun lol
And I don't like the taste of most drinks


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> *get angry about things hurting the concept of those values
> 
> *more conceptual in your morality, and not budging on them
> 
> (If i understood correctly).


Ok, you seem Fi-Te then, though this is a rather basic analysis, to be fair. Do you consider yourself similar to @alittlebear?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> alittlebear said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully my answer will not influence anyone,
> 
> But I'm not sure I relate to either? I am upset when people get hurt. Like, I think that's it. Which is sort of a value, but for me it's more... people getting hurt.
> 
> I mean, I dislike Pride, but if someone is experiencing Pride and not bring harm to anyone, I have no problem with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's an example of the latter, external happenings which represent that value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This question is specifically designed to differentiate between high order Fi or Fe, and the second one between low order Te and Ti.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear ( i have said this before), I take the comments one at a time from where i left off. So I didnt see this or bears comment yet.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat okay I'm getting more engaged in this show. Oops. 

Yes, Henry is a jerk. 

Do you know what type the first Queen is? (I think her name is Catherine, but... Wow, they were having quite the name repeats in that century weren't they?) 

Also, I read through your Tudor stuff on Funky. I'm excited to meet all these characters. But it's funny that all his wives seem to be Fs? I suppose it would make sense, but it feels like history perhaps got their nature wrong or the show went for extreme stereotypes in their creation. 

I'm most excited for Anne of Cleves, though. She sounds like a lovely and relatable Fe-dominant.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> Francis is my baby. Love him to pieces. I can talk Reign all day with yuh. Eventually, I'll get there with Tudors.


Watch Tudors now so we can watch it together! 

And I didn't realize you watched Reign _too!_ What female character do you love the most?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> *get angry about things hurting the concept of those values
> 
> *more conceptual in your morality, and not budging on them
> 
> (If i understood correctly).
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, you seem Fi-Te then, though this is a rather basic analysis, to be fair. Do you consider yourself similar to @alittlebear?
Click to expand...


Some areas, sure. But over all, no. Her love seems so .... wide. Mine, feels more. ... confined. Specific. Picky.

Like i love all of humanity, but from afar. It's so hard to explain, really. I just don't have this universal love, bear has. I admire it, but. Yeah... my universal love is very, surface oriented. My specific love is very very deep. My kids, mom and husband. And God. Everyone else is just, a cluster of people I care about on the surface. But there is no depth to my love. It doesn't pain me the way it pains bear , to see injustices. It pains me though when I see the actual pain from the peoples eyes.

EDIT: Not saying it doesn't pain bear in that way too. Her love seems more universally genuine.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> @fair phantom well I finished your video!
> 
> Clearly an Ne type. I saw some Si in your answer about fashion and your reaction to stress, but you're an Ne preferer. Not much sensory about your picture perceptions. I'm 21 and my birthday was recent and not that interesting. I get mistaken for 17 all the time and the bartender was like "hey we need some ID". Liberating. I'm not much of a bar hopper anyway so whatever. I would of gladly traded your birthday! I want to take a solo trip one day.
> 
> I don't think the Ne is dominate though. You have to process and think about your thoughts first... you emphasized this. The feeling comes across as Fe. When I see Fi doms there is a sense of naivety... a very unassuming nature and they come across as very vulnerable because their values are such a safe guard and they don't want to expose the wrong ones. It seems very easy for you to know where you stand and to dish these values out with confidence. Your reactions with your mother and sister looked Ti and Fe as well, with the need to rationalize their behavior and then react appropriately. Your reaction with the girl who called you too quiet came across as Je inferior. Your talk of order also struck me as Ti, as the logical was internalized. Much Ti in the way you viewed authority. Your emphasis on logical facts in arguments is very T, one could easily say Te but it's a mistake that Ti rejects facts (another reason I thought INFP for myself at a point)
> 
> Due to your ethical stances and focus on people you look very F I agree. A lot of F comes up... so is it INFP or unstereotypical INTP? . We could argue ISFJ maybe... with the way you seem to juggle Ti and Fe evenly (which is what I do), but I don't think Ne is inferior.
> 
> You're tricky girlfriend.


I'm pretty confident I'm not ISFJ, but that Ti/Fe juggling I seem to do may be why I relate to IEI in socionics.

I've been thinking and I don't think i have inferior Fe either. Whatever happened with that one girl, I just find I can process my emotions fairly easily. I have a lot of INTP friends and their relationship with their emotions is just...completely different from mine. I can't find any fictional INTPs that I can really see myself in either. The closest would be maybe Luna Lovegood or Samwell Tarly but...nope. I am way more intense than either of them and I would not have handled being bullied as they did. 

I don't know about the idea that INFPs have "a sense of naivety... a very unassuming nature and they come across as very vulnerable". I don't doubt that this is your experience, but it seems...wrong to me. Limited. I have an INFP friend irl who doesn't have that and I *guess* she could be mistyped but i don't think so. And I don't think (for example) Sybil Crawley has that.

I have much to think about.

Thank you so much for taking the time to watch the video and giving me your analysis! :cat:


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Francis is my baby. Love him to pieces. I can talk Reign all day with yuh. Eventually, I'll get there with Tudors.
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Tudors now so we can watch it together!
> 
> And I didn't realize you watched Reign _too!_ What female character do you love the most?
Click to expand...


I wish I could! No cable/Internet. Although, hmmm... i could watch in my phone via netflix. My husband wants me to get caught up on Pretty Little Liars though. Lol

I seriously have like 200 shows in "my list" that I bounce around in. It drive my husband nuts. 

Anyway, I love Catherine, but this last season she became so ... desperate. It wasn't a good look. I like Kenna(more bow,but ehhh) , and Greer. Lola bothers me sometimes, but I like her logical ability and disposition. Mary and Greer are my girls (and Catherine). I love Narcisse BTW. And I adore him with Lola. Like, adore.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat okay I'm getting more engaged in this show. Oops.
> 
> Yes, Henry is a jerk.
> 
> Do you know what type the first Queen is? (I think her name is Catherine, but... Wow, they were having quite the name repeats in that century weren't they?)
> 
> Also, I read through your Tudor stuff on Funky. I'm excited to meet all these characters. But it's funny that all his wives seem to be Fs? I suppose it would make sense, but it feels like history perhaps got their nature wrong or the show went for extreme stereotypes in their creation.
> 
> I'm most excited for Anne of Cleves, though. She sounds like a lovely and relatable Fe-dominant.


Catherine, Anne, ~Jane~, Anne, Catherine, Catherine @[email protected]

Henry VIII is a hypocritical immature jerk...that part, at least, seems to be historically accurate (though not necessarily in the particulars). So many wonderful ladies wasted on that man. So many lives ruined. And what a rubbish father. Really did a number on Mary.

I think @angelcat typed Catherine of Aragon (Wife 1) as ESFJ? 

Yeah I am not convinced historically that they were all Fs, but they appear to be that way on the show.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I think we can discuss at least this much at this point
> 
> I also love Francis, but I think I loved him (and Mary) more last season. There are elements that I love this season - how he deals with Narcisse (spelling?) in the first half of the second season - but when it comes to the affair... Something is off to me in how he handles it. And we don't see him as much, which is probably a big part of why I am irked by him.
> 
> It's still so funny to me, because goodness knows the actual baby King Francis was nothing like this. Frail child who Queen Catherine used to control the country, a scenario which I think ASOIAF's Cersei is obviously based off of.  I'm not nearly as put off by this as I thought I would be when I began, though.


I’m 6 episodes in or something, so Francis is still around a lot. As you know, I’m not a fan of Mary. I think she oversteps herself a great deal, so often I side with Francis’ opinions in their arguments. (I legitimately laughed when Catherine barged in on them in bed together. That was hilarious. Both of them were humiliated and she ignored their discomfort. Oh, gosh, I love her. What a bitch.)

Narcisse is a creep. But a hot one. They are playing into my crush on Craig Parker and I don’t appreciate it. (Does Lola really wind up with him later on? UGH.)

One of my older friends adores the show, and when I told her Francis died at fifteen, she went, “WUT??” I assured her that since they are wildly inaccurate thus far, she has nothing to fear in that regard. (I also laughed at that throw-away line in the first season: “The rumors about you being frail…”)

Dig into history a bit and you’ll find a lot of places where GRRM borrowed inspiration. I’m fairly sure he based Margaery Tyrell off of Katharine of Aragon. I think he got the idea for Jaime and Cersei from Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia (their father is certainly a good deal like Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander). The fanatical Dany reminds me a bit of Isabella of Castille, with some Margaret Beaufort fanaticism thrown in for good measure. 



> Now, Henry on The Tudors is different. He's obnoxious. Is there any historical accuracy to that? His lack of care and total informality seems utterly modern to me, but it would be interesting if he was actually prone to such behaviors.
> 
> I think you can also see where the King Henry portrayed in Reign was inspired
> 
> And I mean I hated King Henry in Reign because he was an open pighead, but he was meant to be. Duh. It's harder somehow in a show like The Tudors, with much more serious overtones.


The real Henry VIII was extremely popular*, loved to have fun, could get away with anything due to his charm, and was a sentimental romantic sap who wrote Anne Boleyn poetry. He had a vicious temper, though, and was increasingly cruel and whiny in his old age (he cried for three days when Katherine Howard cheated on him, and he had her executed). I could give you a litany of nasty things he did to the people he “loved,” but I’ll keep it to this: beheaded two wives, threatened to execute his daughter Mary, and devised various “punishments” for Katharine of Aragon in her refusal to allow his annulment, including disbanding her household, banishing her friends to Spain, leaving her alone and forgotten in the country, and reducing her income to a mere pittance. Oh, and he refused to allow her to see their daughter when Mary nearly died of illness. 

But, and here is where I actually find fault with his depiction in “The Tudors” – he was not nearly the man-whore that they depict him as on the show. In the show, he beds anything female with legs, and historically, he only had two genuine mistresses – Besse Blunt (who was about 15) and Mary Boleyn. The show isn’t all that kind to Anne, either. She comes across as more of a conniving schemer than she was in real life; in real life, she looked at the fat, aging king trying to bed her and said, “Ew, no.” He chased her, so she gave him what she thought was an impossible task – make me your queen. And… he did it. He wanted her that much. (Actually, “Anne of the Thousand Days” is a much more accurate representation of Anne Boleyn.) 

* Just not as popular as Katharine of Aragon. She wiped the floor with him when it came to knowing how to win support. Had she not been so religious, and so loyal to him, I think she could have easily started a successful insurrection against him, the people were so much on her side.



alittlebear said:


> @angelcat okay I'm getting more engaged in this show. Oops.
> 
> Yes, Henry is a jerk.
> 
> Do you know what type the first Queen is? (I think her name is Catherine, but... Wow, they were having quite the name repeats in that century weren't they?)
> 
> Also, I read through your Tudor stuff on Funky. I'm excited to meet all these characters. But it's funny that all his wives seem to be Fs? I suppose it would make sense, but it feels like history perhaps got their nature wrong or the show went for extreme stereotypes in their creation.
> 
> I'm most excited for Anne of Cleves, though. She sounds like a lovely and relatable Fe-dominant.



Henry’s first wife? Katharine of Aragon? ESFJ, on the show and in real life. She is like… the picture perfect historical depiction of one. Her Fe was insanely good at what it did. She was a natural strategist, just like her mother, and thwarted Henry’s attempts to divorce her at every turn. In the end, he couldn’t beat her, so he just … abandoned her. (I adore her. So much. If I had a patron saint, and she were a saint, she'd be mine.)

I think all the wives were indeed F’s. I also find it interesting how he went in patterns … SFJs and then SFPs. He turned to the SFJs for comfort, security, and steadfastness (Jane, the ISFJ, was his favorite, because he gave him no trouble and a son to boot), but his heart was always hooked by the sexy SFPs… both of which wound up dead. Anne Boleyn is actually the hardest woman to type. In the show, I think she’s ISFP, but in real life … I’m not sure. Tons of Fi and Te, but their order baffles me. She was incredibly witty and intelligent in some ways, and dumb as a rock in others, in the sense that she had zero respect for Henry’s position as a monarch, and didn’t realize until too late that it is never wise to challenge him in public. 

Anne of Cleeves is a sweetheart on the show. So charming. The real one might have actually been a Te-dom, though, now that I think about it. She knew where things were at, she was pretty frank with Henry, and he actually got to where he liked her … once they weren’t married anymore...

PS: It's such a shame they always start Tudor stories with Anne Boleyn. I'd rather see the young, passionate Henry go against his father's orders not to marry his brother's bride and sweep her off her feet at eighteen years old. His father wasn't long dead before Henry, utterly besotted with the beautiful Katharine, went racing across London to propose. SIGH. Such a lovely beginning... and such an awful ending to their story. What a jerk.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Some areas, sure. But over all, no. Her love seems so .... wide. Mine, feels more. ... confined. Specific. Picky.
> 
> Like i love all of humanity, but from afar. It's so hard to explain, really. I just don't have this universal love, bear has. I admire it, but. Yeah... my universal love is very, surface oriented. My specific love is very very deep. My kids, mom and husband. And God. Everyone else is just, a cluster of people I care about on the surface. But there is no depth to my love. It doesn't pain me the way it pains bear , to see injustices. It pains me though when I see the actual pain from the peoples eyes.
> 
> EDIT: Not saying it doesn't pain bear in that way too. Her love seems more universally genuine.


Seems like you're acting like how you perceive Fe, but are really Fi. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom oh you're right! I forgot, she did say she considered Catherine ESFJ. I like that  

All of this is making me get caught up on the historical political intrigue. I love to think of the lives. What they had to do to accomp,ish what they wanted. The sacrifices their children bore, how those compare to what the peasants had and did not have in their simplicity but poverty. Gah. Thoughts. 

Makes me also want to take The Tudors class with my friend next semester, but I'm already taking too many Euro credits as it is! 

One thing always gets to me, though. Henry told Thomas (Thomas I'm thinking of or? Could look it up but nah) that he chose to wage war to be remembered, rather that help the people. Well, spit on him! Who needs to be objectively ~immortal~ that way when you can take care of so many people? The funniest thing is that we know as the audience that he _is_ quite immortal, but not at all for the reasons he wanted to be. 

And it's just also funny because you can't chase after being a legend. You will or you will not be, but I think it's silly to strive to be that. You will be remembered as you are, without trying. And I think it's best to be remembered for the actions of a good heart. But alas :/


----------



## fair phantom

@angelcat do you know of any dramatizations that show Catherine of Aragon in the pre-Anne days? I would love to see her time as regent depicted.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat Can't describe the joy inside of me at your knowledge-beating response. My brain is grabbing for more. But I don't quite know what to say as I soak it in. 

I'm just so happy? I'm remembering again why history is so wonderful. It's unexplainable... but it is. 

I actually found a bit in my Medieval History class that reminded me of Cersei. Quite a bit, actually. I think that GRRM did a good job of manifesting the misogyny that a queen faced, the way the people would turn against her and scorn her (as you will see in her Walk if you have not already). Her story in the fourth and fifth books very much reflects the sufferings of so many queens before her. Unlike them, her crimes are objectively deserving of the punishments she is given - less than what she deserves, sadly - but I still love how it is played out nonetheless. (Would list some names, but I'm terrible with them. Sigh. There's a ton, though, in both Roman history and early Middle Ages.) 

Oh, but I do love Narcisse. Hate him at first - of course - but in the second half of the season he's much more sympathetic. He reminds me ridiculously of my uncle though, ha. It's startling. 

My main impressions of Henry still come from the little Royal Diaries series that I read as a little girl. In Elizabeth's story, he's painted as... Well, Robert from GOT, but with red hair. A fat, drunk old man who has moments of affection but who is mostly caught up in self-indulgence. This image doesn't match the one in The Tudors much at all. I'm curious where the switch lies, or if the dear little Royal Diaries series just got that wrong entirely. 

I'm glad to hear that he did have some humanity in his actual life. That's always good. Acts of cruelty are difficult to comprehend, but they are balanced out by the tenderness someone has. (For me at least.) 

Where can I find all of these different adaptations, by the way? They certainly don't have them on Netflix. These movies are the sort of things I would find in the library probably? I have been meaning to drop by there.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some areas, sure. But over all, no. Her love seems so .... wide. Mine, feels more. ... confined. Specific. Picky.
> 
> Like i love all of humanity, but from afar. It's so hard to explain, really. I just don't have this universal love, bear has. I admire it, but. Yeah... my universal love is very, surface oriented. My specific love is very very deep. My kids, mom and husband. And God. Everyone else is just, a cluster of people I care about on the surface. But there is no depth to my love. It doesn't pain me the way it pains bear , to see injustices. It pains me though when I see the actual pain from the peoples eyes.
> 
> EDIT: Not saying it doesn't pain bear in that way too. Her love seems more universally genuine.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you're acting like how you perceive Fe, but are really Fi.
Click to expand...

Hmm... Elaborate?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> Hmm... Elaborate?


^^^ I'm a bit confused by what you're saying here too @Barakiel


----------



## fair phantom

I took a Tudor Stuart England class that I looooved. Especially because I got away with referencing_ Black Adder_ in an essay.

Narcisse is interesting, so I like the inclusion of his character, but I don't like his character. The religious persecution thing makes me go NOPE. Let the protestants be. I know that it makes sense historically, but since when does this show care about historical accuracy?


----------



## Persephone Soul

It actually struck something in me. Like he gets it. Although, I want to make sure from his own words first.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> ^^^ I'm a bit confused by what you're saying here too @Barakiel


Ok, @SugarPlum stated her similarities with you, and it seemed to me like Fi mimicking Fe, and I can relate to her saying that "It pains me though when I see the actual pain from the peoples eyes.". Combining that with my previous inquiries, and she seems Fi, but a compassionate one. People can mimic functions they don't have, but it's usually stale and unrefined.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I took a Tudor Stuart England class that I looooved. Especially because I got away with referencing_ Black Adder_ in an essay.
> 
> Narcisse is interesting, so I like the inclusion of his character, but I don't like his character. The religious persecution thing makes me go NOPE. Let the protestants be. I know that it makes sense historically, but since when does this show care about historical accuracy?


I actually find it difficult to judge their actions on the show, what they should do. I mean, of course while watching I was going "wow, just let the Protestants be, oh my gosh this isn't worth the conflict and Francis doesn't even want to persecute them," but of those there is more at play there than just that. 

What gets me about Narcisse in the first half is... everything. He's a thorough cow. I just wiped that clean in the next half, though. He seems like a completely different character. Not consistent... but I like the inconsistency and use it to my advantage.


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> I took a Tudor Stuart England class that I looooved. Especially because I got away with referencing_ Black Adder_ in an essay.
> 
> Narcisse is interesting, so I like the inclusion of his character, but I don't like his character. The religious persecution thing makes me go NOPE. Let the protestants be. I know that it makes sense historically, but since when does this show care about historical accuracy?


Yes. I agree on the persecution and evil nature. But, him.. as the character. *sigh*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Henry. I can't even. Why are there so many immature, selfish people in this world. And why is one partially controlling the world in this show.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Hm... I think it's like the sort of whirlwind of ideas kind of thing? They dart past quickly, but if one sticks, it's connected to many more that come with it (like those magician handkerchiefs, maybe).
> *Like rabbits sitting around just waiting for you to chase one.*
> 
> There's also the sort of 'think it and it is' mentality, so if I write out a detailed plan for a story, I'll end up not feeling like writing it anymore, because it's... already been done in one form. I have to just do a rough outline and a couple of notes to remember things.
> *I don't even get to the "write detailed plan" part. "I ran through it in my mind" equals to "I did it!".*
> 
> Maybe a bit of a reverse catapult thing going on too? If something triggers a thought, I shoot back inwards from the outside world. It's hard to describe, because I never feel fully present in 'reality', yet I can be a few degrees closer to it at times - it's sort of like viewing things with a layer of something over your eyes, so you can see what it is through the layer, but it's easier to look at the layer.
> *YES.*


Also, guy look what I've found in my links





xD THAT TE TORRENT I'M DYING AMAZING how does she breath? She needs to become sports of some video game sports commentator.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> I read somewhere that Ne writes a ton of similar stories/universein its head that it ends up not using but when they write they are like writing multiple possible universes non-linearly?


yEAAAAH SLAP EM ALL TOGETHER! More like "Since I actually got to writing I might as well just dump everything into it because who knows when I'll get to actually do the thing next time"


----------



## Tad Cooper

Curiphant said:


> I read somewhere that Ne writes a ton of similar stories/universe in its head that it ends up not using but when they write they are like writing multiple possible universes non-linearly?


I found my sister's writing is very different each time in content and she uses Ne aux. I cant tell what goes on in the creation process, but what appears is always very unique.


----------



## Immolate

@Greyhart

...

She just keeps talking...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Also, guy look what I've found in my links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xD THAT TE TORRENT I'M DYING AMAZING how does she breath?


She reminds me of an ISFJ I know. Probably the voice. 

She also reminds me more of an ISTJ I've worked with. Except, obviously, a bit more "out there" than the ISTJ. She's even nodding and talking like the girl.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> yEAAAAH SLAP EM ALL TOGETHER! More like "Since I actually got to writing I might as well just dump everything into it because who knows when I'll get to actually do the thing next time"


Oh dear. 

I save my ideas up until it is right to use them. I don't want to be repetitive in the stories I pursue, and sometimes this jumble may distract from the intention of this story. 

Hmm.


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> Could NPs write me about their Ne? It seems like most NP-Ne links I have saved are me fawning over my Ne-Ti 7-type-ness. I'd like to expand that.


Hmmm... I think one downside of high Ne is that I'll take what someone says, misinterpret it, and run 100km in the wrong direction before I even think to communicate with them. Sometimes I'll even repeat it a couple of times for good measure. It might be made worse by being Ji-dom because I'm so reliant on my own thoughts and feelings, so information that comes from others tends to be filtered through my own experiences and biases.

The thing with Ne and objectivity is that it's intuition derived from concrete objects. My ideas never feel like they come from nowhere. One thing leads to another, which leads to another, which leads to another... so even though I'll probably skip a few steps and refuse to talk about the process (I'd _never_ be so condescending as to belittle someone's intelligence and explain the obvious to them! ) it might _seem_ to come out of left field, but I can always retrace my steps back to the object or idea which sparked it all. 

I guess the difference between Ne-Ji and Ji-Ne is that I'll let my Ji squish a lot of Ne's chatter. It seem to work in a similar way, just... less of it.



tine said:


> Im glad you agreed with that stuff! Very interesting to see how your Fi works internally as well - my sister doesnt like to let people know when shes done something for them, but really appreciates it when people recognise her efforts, do you find that too?


Hmmm, for me it's more like, it's nice if people think enough of my efforts to express their appreciation, but I really hate it when people make a big deal out of it. I'm embarrassed by the attention. On some level it always feels undeserved - like I did it because I wanted to, so please don't make me out to be some kind of saint for it! So I don't mind if people are more low-key about it; in fact I probably prefer it. 

If they're outright unappreciative though, I'll just stop doing anything. I don't even care if they notice or not. I just don't see the point in continuing.



> Yeah it's strange to me that making people uncomfortable = selfish, because it's not, it's just expressing personal thoughts/feelings. I tend not to very much but when I do I dont look for a positive/negative/any sort of reaction, it's just wanting to say my point so it's out there (and if people think about it thats a bonus, but I much prefer they either try and understand my thoughts or accept them as mine).


Yeah, I think this is why I actually get along with Ti users, because there's that similar mentality of, "I'm just putting it out there, do what you want with it." 



> Well Se doesnt always mean action...I dont act on my impulses too much, but when I do I usually enjoy it (maybe just being unsure of myself?) Do you find you're more active mentally then?


Okay, good to know it's not necessarily part of being high Se. 

Oh yeah, there's often a lot going on inside my head! Sometimes I run through so many hypothetical scenarios or little "films" inside my head that I forget whether I've actually done anything about it or not. I guess it's nice when a real-life situation pops up and I've actually thought about it a bit beforehand, but most of the time I think it makes me slow to act and pretty damn useless a lot of the time.



laurie17 said:


> Hm... I think it's like the sort of whirlwind of ideas kind of thing? *They dart past quickly, but if one sticks, it's connected to many more that come with it (like those magician handkerchiefs, maybe).*
> 
> There's also the sort of 'think it and it is' mentality, so if I write out a detailed plan for a story, I'll end up not feeling like writing it anymore, because it's... already been done in one form. I have to just do a rough outline and a couple of notes to remember things.
> 
> Maybe a bit of a reverse catapult thing going on too? If something triggers a thought, I shoot back inwards from the outside world. It's hard to describe, because I* never feel fully present in 'reality', yet I can be a few degrees closer to it at times - it's sort of like viewing things with a layer of something over your eyes, so you can see what it is through the layer, but it's easier to look at the layer.*


+1


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I am so glad that the authority over a country no longer rests the hands in one person who was born to that position.


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> I read somewhere that Ne writes a ton of similar stories/universein its head that it ends up not using but when they write they are like writing multiple possible universes non-linearly?


I find my stories seem to have similar themes. Most are about escaping from a place that is seemingly impossible to escape from, lots of darkness, usually two or three major characters besides the protagonist. I don't think they're in the same universe though (the three most recent were: Mars in a sci-fi story, an island in a dystopian story, a walled city in a fantasy story). Diana Wynne Jones did a lot of same universe stories though. I think she was xSTJ?



Greyhart said:


> Hm... I think it's like the sort of whirlwind of ideas kind of thing? They dart past quickly, but if one sticks, it's connected to many more that come with it (like those magician handkerchiefs, maybe).
> *Like rabbits sitting around just waiting for you to chase one.*
> 
> There's also the sort of 'think it and it is' mentality, so if I write out a detailed plan for a story, I'll end up not feeling like writing it anymore, because it's... already been done in one form. I have to just do a rough outline and a couple of notes to remember things.
> *I don't even get to the "write detailed plan" part. "I ran through it in my mind" equals to "I did it!".*
> 
> Maybe a bit of a reverse catapult thing going on too? If something triggers a thought, I shoot back inwards from the outside world. It's hard to describe, because I never feel fully present in 'reality', yet I can be a few degrees closer to it at times - it's sort of like viewing things with a layer of something over your eyes, so you can see what it is through the layer, but it's easier to look at the layer.
> *YES.*


Yes, pretty much rabbit-like, but almost flat and more... slidey. They slide all over the place.
Haha, sometimes I overthink a story, then I don't want to go through the writing process. That actually counts for a fair amount of activities - I thought about doing something and now I don't really feel like I need to do it any more. Maybe that's the sort of thing that causes Ne users to be more inactive than Se users? Se users would do the thing, most likely.
(Unless it's paintballing. I would always be up for that.)





Greyhart said:


> yEAAAAH SLAP EM ALL TOGETHER! More like "Since I actually got to writing I might as well just dump everything into it because who knows when I'll get to actually do the thing next time"


Haha, maybe that's the difference between Ne dom vs aux - I've managed to get to the point I just focus on a bundle of interlinked ideas which compliment each other in a single story (currently: escape, revenge on a king, issues with people not being affected by magic, mysterious intruder).


----------



## Immolate

Quick search:






One comment says: She's got that killer ISTJ stare lol

No? She looks too nice?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny (I see it) I mean she looks kind especially when she actually speaks but when she looks to the side she seems kind of... hard stare-y. 

It's actually funny that being Traditionalist is so common. In our culture today, going against the norm and structure seems more outwardly common. I suppose a lot of people do go with the established structure, but even then they try not to. Our society shuns that, it seems. (I'm thinking of what I saw in high school.)


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> I save my ideas up until it is right to use them. I don't want to be repetitive in the stories I pursue, and sometimes this jumble may distract from the intention of this story.
> 
> Hmm.


When I write, I know the beginning and I know the end but I have no idea how I'm going to get there. I like using previous ideas and making them a bit different because ideas aren't constant to me but in waves, so a lot of the time I'll hit the end of my new ideas. Then I have to use ideas from like a year ago or rewrite a lot. 

Do you have to write in a linear process?


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> @Greyhart
> 
> ...
> 
> She just keeps talking...


The video is actually edited a bit so it sounds like she's talking without breaks. But yeah , its fast anyways. I briefly dated an ENTJ girl that was very similar. Super sonic talking.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ (I see it) I mean she looks kind especially when she actually speaks but when she looks to the side she seems kind of... hard stare-y.
> 
> It's actually funny that being Traditionalist is so common. In our culture today, going against the norm and structure seems more outwardly common. I suppose a lot of people do go with the established structure, but even then they try not to. Our society shuns that, it seems. (I'm thinking of what I saw in high school.)


She is soft.

The older I get, the more I realize how traditional people are.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> @shinynotshiny (I see it) I mean she looks kind especially when she actually speaks but when she looks to the side she seems kind of... hard stare-y.
> 
> It's actually funny that being Traditionalist is so common. In our culture today, going against the norm and structure seems more outwardly common. I suppose a lot of people do go with the established structure, but even then they try not to. Our society shuns that, it seems. (I'm thinking of what I saw in high school.)


Hipster is mainstreaammmmm

I think we're good with coming up and deconstructing established cultures rapidly. Like we're on a train where we leap from side car to side car which is the traditionalist and established society. 

Before it was like a carriage?


----------



## orbit

@Bugs, I'm not sure how I feel about your signature. It's almost against feelers and sensors on principle, calling them average or weak minded.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> When I write, I know the beginning and I know the end but I have no idea how I'm going to get there. I like using previous ideas and making them a bit different because ideas aren't constant to me but in waves, so a lot of the time I'll hit the end of my new ideas. Then I have to use ideas from like a year ago or rewrite a lot.
> 
> Do you have to write in a linear process?


In a linear process? Hmm. 

I remember... It was probably... I was probably 15/16. My best friend (she had moved to another state) was calling me and texting me and telling me about her new story idea. But she said that she was writing it out of order. Just whatever scene came to her, she wrote it. And I went, inwardly, huh? How? You cannot flow the story together unless you flow it yourself. 

But I liked the idea of being able to do that, the freedom. This is I think wen I began charting the chapters for my story in advance. I made chapter plans after making detailed plot outlines. And when I wrote and figured out my original approach was not actually what I wanted, I readjusted those chapter plans. And I'll still readjust them as I learn so they can truly create the affect I want. 

But even still... I did not actually write out of order. I have a collection of scenes from my Big Story that I've written just out of excitement / vision, but that was more for me to master the characters and my idea of what should happen when I get to the chapter than it was to write the actual chapter. I think it's important for me to write in order, so I maintain the appropriate feeling as I journey through the writing process myself.


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> @Bugs, I'm not sure how I feel about your signature. It's almost against feelers and sensors on principle, calling them average or weak minded.


It has to be taken into context. Socrates was talking about people that just gossip ( non factually even) about other people.

I have a sensor friend ISTJ that I am convinced is smarter than me in almost every measurable way.


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> Yeah it's strange to me that making people uncomfortable = selfish, because it's not, it's just expressing personal thoughts/feelings. I tend not to very much but when I do I dont look for a positive/negative/any sort of reaction, it's just wanting to say my point so it's out there (and if people think about it thats a bonus, but I much prefer they either try and understand my thoughts or accept them as mine).


Yup. "I'm just laying it out!" sometimes people mistenterprent is as "THIS IS MY STRONG OPINION NOTHING CAN CHANGE IT IF U DON'T AGREE U DUMB" which is extremely frustrating. 



ElliCat said:


> Hmmm... I think one downside of high Ne is that I'll take what someone says, misinterpret it, and run 100km in the wrong direction before I even think to communicate with them. Sometimes I'll even repeat it a couple of times for good measure. It might be made worse by being Ji-dom because I'm so reliant on my own thoughts and feelings, so information that comes from others tends to be filtered through my own experiences and biases.
> 
> The thing with Ne and objectivity is that it's intuition derived from concrete objects. My ideas never feel like they come from nowhere. One thing leads to another, which leads to another, which leads to another... so even though I'll probably skip a few steps and refuse to talk about the process (I'd never be so condescending as to belittle someone's intelligence and explain the obvious to them! ) it might seem to come out of left field, but I can always retrace my steps back to the object or idea which sparked it all.
> 
> I guess the difference between Ne-Ji and Ji-Ne is that I'll let my Ji squish a lot of Ne's chatter. It seem to work in a similar way, just... less of it.


"The thing with Ne and objectivity is that it's intuition derived from concrete objects. My ideas never feel like they come from nowhere." Yeah, it's a difference I've noticed between Ne and Ni users too. Ni seems to come way out of nowhere. I usually can trace my ideas back connecting them to something else.



laurie17 said:


> Yes, pretty much rabbit-like, but almost flat and more... slidey. They slide all over the place.
> Haha, sometimes I overthink a story, then I don't want to go through the writing process. That actually counts for a fair amount of activities - I thought about doing something and now I don't really feel like I need to do it any more. *Maybe that's the sort of thing that causes Ne users to be more inactive than Se users?* Se users would do the thing, most likely.
> (Unless it's paintballing. I would always be up for that.)


Yup, I think it is. For me it's also "Haha, this is easy I totally got the theory!.. ... ... WHY IS THIS SO HARD I JUST NEED TO HIT A BALL WITH A RACKET!.. ... That's it. Screw it, I'm the best in my head already anyway."

Also knitting. It's hell. I've been trying to learn it so many times but each time it's like "I understand how to do it, I am currently staring at the picture that illustrates how to do it. WHY won't my hands listen?!"



> Haha, maybe that's the difference between Ne dom vs aux - I've managed to get to the point I just focus on a bundle of interlinked ideas which compliment each other in a single story (currently: escape, revenge on a king, issues with people not being affected by magic, mysterious intruder).


Possibly also expirience? As in skill gained with time. I still like to cram too many characters into idea.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I hate Boleyn. He's Panderus and I want to slap him.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> What are you even watching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of these lil shits lives under my window. This flat and all the birds outside. I feel like I moved into a Disney cartoon.


I started watching the video, stopped, still heard chirping and realized I've grown desensitized to the birds in my neighborhood :encouragement:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I can't tell the difference between bird sound and other sound? I think I just don't notice. I mean there's frogs everywhere, they make sounds at night, but I don't even notice them. Heck, I don't even notice the train anymore and we live right by some tracks.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I can't tell the difference between bird sound and other sound? I think I just don't notice. I mean there's frogs everywhere, they make sounds at night, but I don't even notice them. Heck, I don't even notice the train anymore and we live right by some tracks.


I'm only bothered when it's 3 in the morning and some bird decides it's a good time for singing. So cheerful.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Definitely.


Japanese American 8D


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Japanese American 8D


In Australia? That must be fun


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm about to finish my Easter jelly beans /sigh/


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I'm about to finish my Easter jelly beans /sigh/


Omg you can't be serious


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> Omg you can't be serious


I am. I haven't touched The Bunny yet. And I've only eaten one of five Peeps. Who knows what else is in that poor basket.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I am. I haven't touched The Bunny yet. And I've only eaten one of five Peeps. Who knows what else is in that poor basket.


You just became my role model,congrats lol

Isn't _that_ supposed to be Si PoLR??? 
Or am I just too much of a 2 finding love in chocolate bunnies and jelly beans? :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> You just became my role model,congrats lol
> 
> Isn't _that_ supposed to be Si PoLR???
> Or am I just too much of a 2 finding love in chocolate bunnies and jelly beans? :laughing:


I can't eat the Bunny. I don't know what that says about me. It's so lifelike. My parents keep getting them for me and they keep sitting in the refrigerator and someday they're going to learn to just get my sister two Bunnies or something.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

In other news, the baby might actually be a newborn 

What loving mother signed her newborn child up for a telivision show. How does this happen.


----------



## Darkbloom

alittlebear said:


> I can't eat the Bunny. I don't know what that says about me. It's so lifelike. My parents keep getting them for me and they keep sitting in the refrigerator and someday they're going to learn to just get my sister two Bunnies or something.


Hah,I knew people like that,but I'm the opposite,I LOVE cute animal shaped food as long as it not real animal shaped animal XD
It's like they are saying "Hey LD,please eat me,you deserve it :kitteh:"
Not sure what that says about me :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I can't tell the difference between bird sound and other sound? I think I just don't notice. I mean there's frogs everywhere, they make sounds at night, but I don't even notice them. Heck, I don't even notice the train anymore and we live right by some tracks.


The view out of my window used to be life this 









Third floor, some trees but not like now










JUSt. TREES. And birds. Don't shut up.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart YOU HAVE A GORGEOUS TREE OUTSIDE YOUR WINDOW don't talk to me

We had four gorgeous baby oak tree saplings but my parents gave them away because they don't know a good tree when they have one.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Yup, I think it is. For me it's also "Haha, this is easy I totally got the theory!.. ... ... WHY IS THIS SO HARD I JUST NEED TO HIT A BALL WITH A RACKET!.. ... That's it. Screw it, I'm the best in my head already anyway."
> 
> Also knitting. It's hell. I've been trying to learn it so many times but each time it's like "I understand how to do it, I am currently staring at the picture that illustrates how to do it. WHY won't my hands listen?!"
> 
> 
> Possibly also expirience? As in skill gained with time. I still like to cram too many characters into idea.


Haha, I always find it a pleasant surprise if I'm actually good at physically-based activities (the only things I can really think of are cooking, paintball and swimming). I'm so, so bad at most of them, because my brain can't quite work out how to make my body move in the right way i.e. I knew the theory of how to bowl in bowling, so told my friends and they all bowled well, then I tried and it failed...

Knitting is hard. I tried it once or twice and each time it was okay, but too tight (and I can't choose colours, so I made one scrap that looked like it was carrot-inspired).

Maybe it is experience, I'm not sure... I think even when I started out I knew it wouldn't work as well for me with many characters, because I just can't keep track of them all (unlike GRR Martin etc.).


----------



## orbit

Ha I have excellent hand eye coordination and all of my coaches have agreed that I learn things/techniques faster than average. 

Unfortunately I'm not a fast runner

Se wins

Anyway, I read the ISFj description and I related quite a bit to the Fi and Se descriptions but stopped at the blocks because I'm a loser and I don't feel like putting in the effort into figuring out what it means just yet.

Socionics by the way

---

The forums are extremely strange to me now


----------



## ElliCat

alittlebear said:


> And yes, sounds quite like my friend. I'm pretty convinced she's a classic INFP. Even though she's convinced she's INFJ


It's a really easy mistake to make. I always feel like INFJ's are my soulmates until we clash and then I realise I don't understand anything about them. I don't know if it's mutual. But the descriptions are so similar that if you're like me and got it in a test, you don't think to question it. Especially when you're using the dichotomies, because J = organised and I strongly believe in inner control. It's the outer world I can't control. XD



Greyhart said:


> According to socionics NPs hate their Se. This has been a persistent problem through my entire life. If I can't master a skill very fast, skill goes into the trash bin. The only physical thing I am good at are ice skates and roller skates. Both took me about an hour to figure out how to hold my balance. I consider it to be physical achievement of my life. Granted, I grew out of my roller skates and winters are not snowy/icey enough for this anymore but the skill is there. Probably.


Yessss Se PoLR 4 lyf

Well not for you. You don't get Se PoLR. But I do.



> I admit it. When I realized that I am NP I thought I could be ENFP because of how self-centered I am >_>''' ew


What type were you considering initially?

And yes, that's why I throw a tantrum every time I see Fi being mischaracterised. I wonder how many people mistype because of it.



Barakiel said:


> See, this is what happens when you take something out of context, I was making a point that @SugarPlum seemed to be different from @alittlebear in that their values seemed to be similar, but the former's was more streamlined to particular individuals and wouldn't be, well, Fe. Then again, considering @SugarPlum is apparently ESFJ anyway from where I'm up to in this thread, it's a fuck-up anyway. :dry:


How did I take it out of context? You said that she seems Fi, BUT a compassionate one. Does that not imply that generally speaking, Fi users aren't compassionate? Otherwise you wouldn't've felt the need to clarify that she happened to be compassionate?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I can swim. Or I could swim. I was very good at it. 

And I can catch a ball if I concentrate, even now. I did it just the other night, and it was very fun. It's pretty amazing how the ball comes to your hands if you just _focus_ on it. Makes no sense, but that's how it happens. It always shocks me. Miraculous. 

Other than that, I don't know. My Gym coaches loved me. They say they wish all their students were like me. I tried my hardest. I was the only one to run the mile. Even when I couldn't lift much more than 15 pounds, my coaches didn't hold it against me. I wasn't the best basketball player, but I always put forth my best effort, and smiled as I did it. That doesn't count as athletic talent, but I guess it's something.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ElliCat said:


> It's a really easy mistake to make. I always feel like INFJ's are my soulmates until we clash and then I realise I don't understand anything about them. I don't know if it's mutual. But the descriptions are so similar that if you're like me and got it in a test, you don't think to question it. Especially when you're using the dichotomies, because J = organised and I strongly believe in inner control. It's the outer world I can't control. XD


Yes, I've mentioned several times how that dear INFP description still describes me very well, even though I'm certainly not an Fi-dominant. Descriptions can be very silly. 

I always wonder if I'm not just misunderstanding her and the system, though. When I learned about Ne, I thought of her. She seemed so full of it, when we were growing up. Always so witty, thinking of funny, "random" things, mixing ideas together for fun. Not to mention the way she writes. And as for Fi... That seems her so much as well. She doesn't understand Fe things as well. She's polite when we message, but she doesn't go out of her way to address what I want to address as I feel I do her. I mean, maybe it's just Fe-aux and I've gotten it all wrong, but she still seems picturesque INFP to me. I'll have to see the next time I see her, though. That might clear it up a bit for me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I took the test @fair phantom linked and got


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> Also I just took a hexaco test *and what is this extraversion score? *:eek-new:


HA.


Mine


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> In a linear process? Hmm.
> 
> I remember... It was probably... I was probably 15/16. My best friend (she had moved to another state) was calling me and texting me and telling me about her new story idea. But she said that she was writing it out of order. Just whatever scene came to her, she wrote it. And I went, inwardly, huh? How? You cannot flow the story together unless you flow it yourself.
> 
> But I liked the idea of being able to do that, the freedom. This is I think wen I began charting the chapters for my story in advance. I made chapter plans after making detailed plot outlines. And when I wrote and figured out my original approach was not actually what I wanted, I readjusted those chapter plans. And I'll still readjust them as I learn so they can truly create the affect I want.
> 
> But even still... I did not actually write out of order. I have a collection of scenes from my Big Story that I've written just out of excitement / vision, but that was more for me to master the characters and my idea of what should happen when I get to the chapter than it was to write the actual chapter. I think it's important for me to write in order, so I maintain the appropriate feeling as I journey through the writing process myself.


I should write in a non-linear process. Because I'll think of a scene, it's perfect in my mind but . . . I don't want to write it yet because I don't know what will have happened by this point, how the character development went, but by the time I actually catch up, I've forgotten the details of that scene and it's a pale imitation of the original. 
Or I just need to write faster. My last story, I got a certain amount through, and then...I was so bored and done with the whole thing, I just summarized the last part, wrote my ending scene, so I could finally move on to my newest project. (I mean...it didn't have anything to fill those pages anyways, it just would have better for...not totally abandoning my project, but it's like, it was that Arthurian story, do people really need to read about the Trial of Guinevere again? I don't think so! and my main character's character development arc was pretty much where it needed to be. Ah. Anyways, I have no clue what personality type does that, I guess just 'whatever mine is'.

But anyways, your last paragraph made sense to me)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> Relevant. I didn't learn how to ride a bike until I was nine, and it was one of the most emberassing things for me. Forget shoe tieing, lol. (Although the shoe thing was more lack of fine motor skills I think. I still struggle.)


Oh for me?

I loved my tricycle at 4, and mastered the training wheels around 5 or 6.

Taking the training wheels off was attempted at 8 (the year I learned to tie my shoes; I was proud but embarrassed). My mother was prego and my stepfather never had time so we postponed.

Took me maybe two months or more but I finally got those training wheels off and I was so thrilled.

I went to some testy clinical place later that year and remember reading the report about by lagged motor skill development and getting pissed when they mentioned I learned to ride a bike that summer, as if I were some sideshow freak; an eight wonder of the world. Uh... I learned to ride a bike *without training wheels* and probably would have a year before if practice wasn't postponed.

Makes you wonder how common misdiagnosis (especially in children) is.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> In a linear process? Hmm.
> 
> I remember... It was probably... I was probably 15/16. My best friend (she had moved to another state) was calling me and texting me and telling me about her new story idea. But she said that she was writing it out of order. Just whatever scene came to her, she wrote it. And I went, inwardly, huh? How? You cannot flow the story together unless you flow it yourself.
> 
> But I liked the idea of being able to do that, the freedom. This is I think wen I began charting the chapters for my story in advance. I made chapter plans after making detailed plot outlines. And when I wrote and figured out my original approach was not actually what I wanted, I readjusted those chapter plans. And I'll still readjust them as I learn so they can truly create the affect I want.
> 
> But even still... I did not actually write out of order. I have a collection of scenes from my Big Story that I've written just out of excitement / vision, but that was more for me to master the characters and my idea of what should happen when I get to the chapter than it was to write the actual chapter. I think it's important for me to write in order, so I maintain the appropriate feeling as I journey through the writing process myself.


I write out of order all the time. I'd weave out-of-order parts I wrote into a whole later.



hoopla said:


> Oh for me?
> 
> I loved my tricycle at 4, and mastered the training wheels around 5 or 6.
> 
> Taking the training wheels off was attempted at 8 (the year I learned to tie my shoes; I was proud but embarrassed). My mother was prego and my stepfather never had time so we postponed.
> 
> Took me maybe two months or more but I finally got those training wheels off and I was so thrilled.
> 
> I went to some testy clinical place later that year and remember reading the report about by lagged motor skill development and getting pissed when they mentioned I learned to ride a bike that summer, as if I were some sideshow freak; an eight wonder of the world. Uh... I learned to ride a bike *without training wheels* and probably would have a year before if practice wasn't postponed.
> 
> *Makes you wonder how common misdiagnosis (especially in children) is.*


There's diagnosis for being un-bicycleable?

I was sorta of diagnosed (by a family friend, nothing was done about it) with ADHD. I'll tell you as a kid I had more patience and tenaciousness than now.  Diagnosis was based on my mother's complaints that I was too active and demanded too much attention. In a household where dad was absent for the most of the year, grandma and mom fought every day and when they didn't one was at work and another in bed with migraine. :dry: Damn straight I was lonely and not hugged enough. *grumble* I hate how ADHD is slapped on active kids because adults can't handle them.


----------



## Immolate

> The facet of enthusiasm reflects the propensity to meet external objects and people with positive emotion. *Your score was 28.*
> 
> The facet of assertiveness reflects a propensity to be confident in meeting the world and seeking dominance in social situations. *Your score was 53.*


:hampster:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla I hate it when any doctor treats a person like a "freak". They shouldn't be practicing. They actually probably shouldn't be any child at all with that mindset. Like, anywhere near them. 

I was so happy when I realized I had dyspraxia. I always had it, my parents just never said anything because it was under the umbrella of dystonia. But it explained so much. Why I can't put my hair up. Why hand things are harder for me. Why I'm destined to always have messy handwriting. It doesn't make me a freak, but it does explain why I'm not on my peers' level in that regard.


----------



## Tad Cooper

ElliCat said:


> Oh yeah, unless I have a sudden visceral reaction of "I HAVE TO DO THIS" then it can be quite a... process... to figure out if I'm going to do something. So often I end up just letting my anxiety make the decision for me. XD I've been trying to fight it though, and turn it into a "I'll do it if my gut feeling _isn't_ no".
> 
> I guess for me it's more like, I wouldn't care if other people didn't? I don't like it when people get offended and/or hurt over things that I say when I didn't mean anything by it. So if I want to avoid all that drama, I have to try to learn what their value judgements are and think more carefully about the words I use.


Yeah thats very similar to me. I'm trying to grab life a bit more lately and just go for things, but I think anxiety makes it a little harder and probably having Ne would make it harder (looking at all issues maybe?)
I agree very much, always trying to avoid drama as much as I can but whats the point in talking to people if you have to walk on eggshells? It was funny in the class debates I had where I tried to be careful, but at times I just blurted out things in shock/disbelief at some of the things people said (i.e. some girl said not to cure Malaria because it was ''natural selection'' and yet, when I asked if she would then not vaccinate herself or her children, she said that was different...)



Greyhart said:


> I'm envious  You are too cool..


Aw shucks....


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> I used to not like team activities but grew to enjoy people working towards the same goal. Simultaneously I hate it if group has a hierarchy. I like it when it's just a bunch of people doing what they can to advance the collective goal.


That's true. There were always one or two kids who were very into taking charge...



shinynotshiny said:


> I can't even ride a bike. That's my Se.


It's bad I'm happy someone else can't ride a bike. I've always had weird looks when I tell people I can't (I fell off and broke my leg when I was 8, so have a bit of a thing about them).



ElliCat said:


> Yeah my attitude was similar to yours.
> 
> Oh I didn't say I was any good at those things! (Hint: I wasn't. My mother made me take swimming lessons for 2 - 3 years after my classmates all stopped because I wasn't good enough for her liking. I could swim well enough not to drown but apparently she wanted me to perform all the strokes beautifully or some shit? Really freaking embarrassing when the kids who already are predisposed toward teasing you come to the pool to play and they see you in lessons with the younger kids...)
> 
> I agree ice-skating is fun, probably because it's partly an artform as well as exercise?


Really? I can never understand the need to perform beautiful strokes - swimming is for survival. I mean, unless you were doing olympic swimming, maybe? Still, it seems very unnecessary to me.

Ice skating was sort of peaceful, just going around the rink on my own and having to keep my focus on how I was moving. It was a bit like meditation :ghost: I find writing and cooking to be similar, because you have to focus. It blocks out everything else.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> :hampster:





> *The facet of enthusiasm reflects the propensity to meet external objects and people with positive emotion. Your score was 28.*


GASP. Where's your enthusiasm?



> Extraversion
> 
> The facet of enthusiasm reflects the propensity to meet external objects and peope with positive emotion. Your score was 83.
> The facet of assertiveness reflects a propensity to be confident is meeting the world and seeking dominance in social situations. Your score was 65.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> That's true. There were always one or two kids who were very into taking charge...


That's instant "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" for me.



> It's bad I'm happy someone else can't ride a bike. I've always had weird looks when I tell people I can't *(I fell off and broke my leg when I was 8, so have a bit of a thing about them)*.


Around 10 my biodad tried to teach me (yet again) and decided it's a best to just throw a baby into the water and let it swim. The baby rode about 1 meter and flopped to the side like a rock. Fortunately nothing broke but that was it for dad's attempts of teaching me how to bike.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> GASP. Where's your enthusiasm?


----------



## fair phantom

I'm jealous of everyone who got to do ice skating in PE.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Disclaimer: The following link is the porthole to the inside of a 'can of worms'. Please open only under the notion that the author (me) was a little more manic and hyped than usual. Please look past the delivery and read what is actually being said. Thank you and good luck.

Lol, I just grabbed a random page. The first couple pages I was deemed Fi. 
http://personalitycafe.com/#/forumsite/20588/topics/528442?page=5


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> @hoopla I hate it when any doctor treats a person like a "freak". They shouldn't be practicing. They actually probably shouldn't be any child at all with that mindset. Like, anywhere near them.
> 
> I was so happy when I realized I had dyspraxia. I always had it, my parents just never said anything because it was under the umbrella of dystonia. But it explained so much. Why I can't put my hair up. Why hand things are harder for me. Why I'm destined to always have messy handwriting. It doesn't make me a freak, but it does explain why I'm not on my peers' level in that regard.


Discovering learning disabilities is rather enlightening.

I have it too. My handwriting still looks like a little kid's but it's legible at least. 

I always was mortified I was stupid due to my brain's wonky comprehension of math and coordination. Coordination takes intelligence, so it scared me. Once I even researched it and discovered that yes, in general, those with low intelligence are likely to be gravely uncoordinated, but those with high intelligence? Not clearly differentiated. 

When you learn a learning disability is just one specific area of your brain and it doesn't affect your overall intelligence, you can breathe again.


----------



## Darkbloom

fair phantom said:


> I'm jealous of everyone who got to do ice skating in PE.


This.

We just rolled around the gym floor or whatever the activity is called.
And we played something like dodgeball but simpler version.I always made myself hit under my terms so I wouldn't have to play anymore XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Discovering learning disabilities is rather enlightening.
> 
> I have it too. My handwriting still looks like a little kid's but it's legible at least.
> 
> I always was mortified I was stupid due to my brain's wonky comprehension of math and coordination. Coordination takes intelligence, so it scared me. Once I even researched it and discovered that yes, in general, those with low intelligence are likely to be gravely uncoordinated, but those with high intelligence? Not clearly differentiated.
> 
> When you learn a learning disability is just one specific area of your brain and it doesn't affect your overall intelligence, you can breathe again.


That's what my friend told me. She had dyslexia. Growing up, she genuinely thought she was stupid. It opened her world when she was told that no, she just had a disability, she was really as smart as everyone else. She graduated with a 5.0 GPA.


----------



## owlet

Did that test:









The trait of extraversion reflects the extent to which you direct your interest to things outside of yourself. Its two facets are called enthusiasm and assertiveness. The facet of *enthusiasm* reflects the propensity to meet external objects and peope with positive emotion. Your score was *47*.
The facet of *assertiveness* reflects a propensity to be confident is meeting the world and seeking dominance in social situations. Your score was *40*.







Greyhart said:


> That's instant "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" for me.
> 
> Around 10 my biodad tried to teach me (yet again) and decided it's a best to just throw a baby into the water and let it swim. The baby rode about 1 meter and flopped to the side like a rock. Fortunately nothing broke but that was it for dad's attempts of teaching me how to bike.


Yes, I can't stand it. They need some perspective...

Aw, at least he tried? :ghost: My mum did a similar thing that, when I wanted to quit, told me to try again. And I got pretty good and could turn and everything. Then fell of completely normally, on flat grass, and my leg just snapped. Stupid body.



fair phantom said:


> I'm jealous of everyone who got to do ice skating in PE.


Oh no. Nooo, sorry I was unclear. Ice skating was outside of school for me (I went with my friends), my school was cheap and we didn't even do swimming in secondary school (and only for my final year of primary). We just got hockey in the field over winter and lots of football and rounders.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> I write out of order all the time. I'd weave out-of-order parts I wrote into a whole later.
> 
> 
> There's diagnosis for being un-bicycleable?
> 
> I was sorta of diagnosed (by a family friend, nothing was done about it) with ADHD. I'll tell you as a kid I had more patience and tenaciousness than now.  Diagnosis was based on my mother's complaints that I was too active and demanded too much attention. In a household where dad was absent for the most of the year, grandma and mom fought every day and when they didn't one was at work and another in bed with migraine. :dry: Damn straight I was lonely and not hugged enough. *grumble* I hate how ADHD is slapped on active kids because adults can't handle them.


It was based on a demonstration of my motor skills being unremarkable in comparison to my peers.

It's associated with many issues, actually. It's probably most commonly associated with autism actually. Dyspraxia was my label (basically- you're born with a mechanical body and your brain cannot keep up with it or move it in the way it knows it's supposed to).

But I was able to bicycle and due to misinformation it was exaggerated. This is too fucking common.

Kids need hugs. ): Though I disliked random hugs or too many so I was a weirdo. And yes I agree; I say the school system (America at least) exuberates ADHD. Kids aren't meant to sit in chairs for longs hours at a time.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Oh no. Nooo, sorry I was unclear. Ice skating was outside of school for me (I went with my friends), my school was cheap and we didn't even do swimming in secondary school (and only for my final year of primary). We just got hockey in the field over winter and lots of football and rounders.


Back when I was a kid winters actually had snow that turned into almost ice after a while. So I skated kind of around the city. Haven't seen winter that would make that kind of roads in years.



hoopla said:


> It was based on a demonstration of my motor skills being unremarkable in comparison to my peers.
> 
> *It's associated with many issues, actually. It's probably most commonly associated with autism actually.* Dyspraxia was my label (basically- you're born with a mechanical body and your brain cannot keep up with it or move it in the way it knows it's supposed to).
> 
> But I was able to bicycle and due to misinformation it was exaggerated. This is too fucking common.


 I had no idea coordination would have something to do with such issues. I assumed it's more of "lizard brain" part, something deeply ingrained and separated from consciousness.



> Kids need hugs. ): Though I disliked random hugs or too many so I was a weirdo. And yes I agree; I say the school system (America at least) exuberates ADHD. Kids aren't meant to sit in chairs for longs hours at a time.


I didn't even have problems with school.  just constantly demanded new things - books, TV, toys, if not those then at least doing something fun with someone. Grandma, panicky women she is, despite being a doctor herself took that diagnosis and ran with it, telling my teachers and various family acquaintances. Myself I kind of decided to blame any laziness I had on being ill. Because kids should naturally want to do homework so if I don't means there' something wrong with me, right?

School and mental health institution are the reasons to not want to bring a child into this world. Well, not mine but I can see others considering this too.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

I have loose ligaments, so I had to be really careful during sport class as I could be injured easily. That also impairs my sport skills so I suck at that stuff and ended not doing sport class as my teacher was dumb and forced me to play alone against a wall, and she also refused to evaluate me with lower standards than my class, so that would have a bad impact on my marks.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> That's what my friend told me. She had dyslexia. Growing up, she genuinely thought she was stupid. It opened her world when she was told that no, she just had a disability, she was really as smart as everyone else. She graduated with a 5.0 GPA.


I didn't even know that was a thing?


----------



## Greyhart

Basically everybody on this thread is envious of @tine 's amazing Se skills.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Back when I was a kid winters actually had snow that turned into almost ice after a while. So I skated kind of around the city. Haven't seen winter that would make that kind of roads in years.


Damn climate change.

I never got much snow where I currently live.

One year was a fluke; a 3 month blizzard practically. 10 year old's wet dream.

My neighbors shoveled snow on their garage driveway so we could pseudo ice skate. I fell, and my nose bleed created a bloody murder scene to investigate. 

I always share the most random of stories don't I?


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> Basically everybody on this thread is envious of @tine 's amazing Se skills.


Oh please. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

I thought I liked lists but now I know I've been lying to myself by calling my scribbles lists.

Bullet Journal


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I thought I liked lists but now I know I've been lying to myself by calling my scribbles lists.
> 
> Bullet Journal


I wish one of these organization geniuses would teach me their ways. It is all so pretty. :lovekitty:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> I wish one of these organization geniuses would teach me their ways. It is all so pretty. :lovekitty:


I imagine pretty is the point. Technology is much more efficient :typingneko:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Yeah, I don't know if I would have time to be that organized. Like it's just one class. I don't need to fan girl over the notes I take, you know?


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> I didn't even know that was a thing?


Do you mean the 5.0? Weighted GPA.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I imagine pretty is the point. Technology is much more efficient :typingneko:


I remember things _much_ better if I write them down.

Also I like pretty. XD


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Yeah, I don't know if I would have time to be that organized. Like it's just one class. I don't need to fan girl over the notes I take, you know?


You guys take notes? :whoa:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> You guys take notes? :whoa:


enguin:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> enguin:


You bookworms are weirdos. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> You Te weirdos. :dry:


I think note-taking is essential to. Not always - it depends on the class - but when you're taking courses with brilliant professors who are overflowing with priceless knowledge... yeah, I'm gonna write down every word I can get of what they're saying. That stuff is precious.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I think note-taking is essential to. Not always - it depends on the class - but when you're taking courses with brilliant professors who are overflowing with priceless knowledge... yeah, I'm gonna write down every word I can get of what they're saying. That stuff is precious.


... Really? I'd rather approach them after the class to talk with them about all kinds of crap, one on one is usually better than class lectures. :laughing: Maybe that's just me though, I don't like taking notes, and I'd rather have a conversation with someone where I learn things incidentally instead of a class where I'm taught strict curriculum.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> ... Really? I'd rather approach them after the class to talk with them about all kinds of crap, one on one is usually better than class lectures. :laughing: Maybe that's just me though, I don't like taking notes, and I'd rather have a conversation with someone where I learn things incidentally instead of a class where I'm taught strict curriculum.


I do both. Talk to them for two hours after class, and absorb the lectures. 

I _love _ lectures though. I'm addicted, honestly. With certain professors they're hard to follow, and other professors get a bit bloated and want to shove their political opinions on you and pass it off as "wisdom" and "truth" and "totally relevant to this class," but even then they sometimes breathe out things that reveal part of the giant knot of true knowledge they've gained over their academic career, and I live to write that stuff down and program it into my own head.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I think note-taking is essential to. Not always - it depends on the class - but when you're taking courses with brilliant professors who are overflowing with priceless knowledge... yeah, I'm gonna write down every word I can get of what they're saying. That stuff is precious.


Only sometimes.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I do both. Talk to them for two hours after class, and absorb the lectures.
> 
> I _love _ lectures though. I'm addicted, honestly. With certain professors they're hard to follow, and other professors get a bit bloated and want to shove their political opinions on you and pass it off as "wisdom" and "truth" and "totally relevant to this class," but even then they sometimes breathe out things that reveal part of the giant knot of true knowledge they've gained over their academic career, and I live to write that stuff down and program it into my own head.


You are a strange, strange woman. Or perhaps I'm the strange one, since I keep calling other people strange.  How can you like lectures, though. Even with the wealth of knowledge you may gain, it's still way too regimented and overblown to be called compelling. Or perhaps I'm just lazy. :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

Most of my profs didn't make everything feel regimented. Also it was important to me to do well in classes and as I said, writing it down helps my memory.

I would talk to my profs after class sometimes but I felt bad if I took up too much of their time.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Most of my profs didn't make everything feel regimented. Also it was important to me to do well in classes and as I said, writing it down helps my memory.
> 
> I would talk to my profs after class sometimes but I felt bad if I took up too much of their time.


Really? Huh, maybe it's just me. 

Wait, you felt bad? Really? :whoa: For me, I treated my teachers like friends, well the ones I got along with at least, the others got my brand of passive aggressiveness, but that's beside the point. Class actually rarely came up, except when they mentioned in a not so subtle way that I wasn't paying attention, but we had a fairly cordial relationship, and I still have fond memories of some of them. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Really? Huh, maybe it's just me.
> 
> Wait, you felt bad? Really? :whoa: For me, I treated my teachers like friends, well the ones I got along with at least, the others got my brand of passive aggressiveness, but that's beside the point. Class actually rarely came up, except when they mentioned in a not so subtle way that I wasn't paying attention, but we had a fairly cordial relationship, and I still have fond memories of some of them. :laughing:


Well yeah some of them I was friendly with, but I'm also well aware of how busy they are and that they have so many other students and advisees that need their time and attention, not to mention papers to grade, articles to write, classes to prepare for, committees to work on, and like...lives to live. I don't know maybe it is different where you live.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Well yeah some of them I was friendly with, but I'm also well aware of how busy they are and that they have so many other students and advisees that need their time and attention, not to mention papers to grade, articles to write, classes to prepare for, committees to work on, and like...lives to live. I don't know maybe it is different where you live.


Haha, it probably is, I'm not even sure we're on the same level of schooling here, but hey. :laughing: And yes, they have other stuff to do, sure, but they're cool people, at least most of them. :wink:


----------



## orbit

Most students don't talk to my dad, I think?

A lot of them think he's stupid though and shouldn't be a professor because he makes obvious mistakes so they would catch him and pay attention. =\

Like seriously? You don't become a professor by chance. In a basic class, the teacher will know their stuff.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Most students don't talk to my dad, I think?
> 
> A lot of them think he's stupid though and shouldn't be a professor because he makes obvious mistakes so they would catch him and pay attention. =\
> 
> Like seriously? You don't become a professor by chance. In a basic class, the teacher will know their stuff.


Sounds like a cool dude, honestly. :laughing: I don't mind talking to stupid people, I just avoid the more... theological discussions. Also, I mock them at times. :wink:


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I thought I liked lists but now I know I've been lying to myself by calling my scribbles lists.
> 
> Bullet Journal


What bra at Victoria's Secret only costs $23?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Most students don't talk to my dad, I think?
> 
> A lot of them think he's stupid though and shouldn't be a professor because he makes obvious mistakes so they would catch him and pay attention. =\
> 
> Like seriously? You don't become a professor by chance. In a basic class, the teacher will know their stuff.


That's so stupid. My most valuable professor last year I think was the one who made the "common" mistakes. He would say something that was incorrect, then laugh and correct himself. Wonderful person. The professors I have the most trouble with are the ones who cannot admit that they are wrong and recoil if someone (me) asks a simple question.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm going floating! Ttyl.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> I had no idea coordination would have something to do with such issues. I assumed it's more of "lizard brain" part, something deeply ingrained and separated from consciousness..



Yes lizard brain.

See aspects of our cerebral cortex control motor and sensory functioning (it's often found that those with sensory processing have motor delay and those with dyspraxia have sensory processing issues). Some people theorize that autistic people have over connectivity in the cortex but the frontal lobe has a weak functional connection. This makes sense to me considering the sensory associated issues.

As for motor skills it's not listed in any current USA DSM criteria but if it was an issue for many autistic kids I worked with in high school. The guy who discovered aspies (Hans Asperger) mentioned clumsiness in his case studies. I've never read his paper (though I've read Leo Kanner's famous paper and his follow up) because he was Austrian and I can't find it translated in English (and if I were to I doubt it'd be free or cheap). The Gilberg criteria for aspies listed motor coordination difficulties but most psychologists used the DSM criteria which never did. Nowadays it's all just lumped into autism which is added sensory issues but not motor skills. It's one of those under looked symptoms not talked about much within the general public.

I am more of a DSM aficionado and my understanding of brain chemistry is like wonky at best. I'm just taking prerequisite courses in college rn (though I have time off) so I haven't gotten into all the brain chemistry stuff yet and I haven't looked into it enough independently. I have to a marginal extent because brain chemistry is interesting but I enjoy too many topics so I have a mile list long of things to research. -_- Never enough time to learn I swear.

Ok done being a psych nerd sorry people.



Greyhart said:


> I didn't even have problems with school.  just constantly demanded new things - books, TV, toys, if not those then at least doing something fun with someone. Grandma, panicky women she is, despite being a doctor herself took that diagnosis and ran with it, telling my teachers and various family acquaintances. Myself I kind of decided to blame any laziness I had on being ill. Because kids should naturally want to do homework so if I don't means there' something wrong with me, right?
> 
> School and mental health institution are the reasons to not want to bring a child into this world. Well, not mine but I can see others considering this too.


My mom's not a doctor but she did the tell everyone and shelter me thing too. Hated it because she made me feel less human. She also exaggerated and I knew it. Hmm I actually was content; not that I ever asked for toys (of course I did; especially dolls) but I was good at entertaining myself and didn't need to much stimulation because boring. Surprised I never got an ADD diagnosis tbh because I spaced out terribly. No way the H would be added because I was mellow. I definitely think diagnosed kids get coddled too much and learn to use an excuse (well I can't play basketball mom because xyz diagnosis so I'll watch tv all summer ok!)

I'm never conceiving for many reasons but I want to adopt/foster if the cards align. I'm definitely aware that many foster parents have to medicate children by force which is not right because abuse fucks up the brain so many end up misdiagnosed ):


----------



## Deadly Decorum

I always sucked at taking notes. Can't keep up. I work better just hearing everything and then paraphrasing until a line of reasoning makes sense. 

I hate lists oh God. My mother was all about that. Diet plans. Lists of chores. Forget that. Sometimes I need reminds on my phone because forgetful, and also grocery shopping lists but lists really are not how I work. I just do things. A list boggles me down so bad or overwhelms me. 

Fun lists though like how to properly write or my bucket list? Sure.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

hoopla said:


> I always sucked at taking notes. Can't keep up. I work better just hearing everything and then paraphrasing until a line of reasoning makes sense.
> 
> I hate lists oh God. My mother was all about that. Diet plans. Lists of chores. Forget that. Sometimes I need reminds on my phone because forgetful, and also grocery shopping lists but lists really are not how I work. I just do things. A list boggles me down so bad or overwhelms me.
> 
> Fun lists though like how to properly write or my bucket list? Sure.


I only take notes of the relevant stuff, and if I miss something I check if my classmates wrote something else. I never write lists, as I have mental ones when I'm going to buy something. I just check what's missing at home and buy it, not checking other things at the supermarket as it's a waste of time. Indeed, that's why I hate to go shopping as I just want to get something specific, while my mom spends hours checking stuff.


----------



## Persephone Soul

SugarPlum said:


> Disclaimer: The following link is the porthole to the inside of a 'can of worms'. Please open only under the notion that the author (me) was a little more manic and hyped than usual. Please look past the delivery and read what is actually being said. Thank you and good luck.
> 
> Lol, I just grabbed a random page. The first couple pages I was deemed Fi.
> http://personalitycafe.com/#/forumsite/20588/topics/528442?page=5


I love rereading what I have written. I don't know, it's like... ahh, nvm, cant explain. I just love reliving an old emotion/mind frame. Its like turning the clock back and seeing it in a whole new light, yet still the emotion is the same, just in a different perspective. Where was I, where am i now, kinda tging. Nvm lol. Anyway, is another link...


ESFJ or INFP??!

http://personalitycafe.com/#/forumsite/20588/topics/542250?page=9


----------



## Immolate

@SugarPlum ESFJ


----------



## Persephone Soul

Thanks Shiny.


Perfect. That's exactly what I am looking for. No more explanations, reasons, break downs or options. Just one or the other. To the point. 

Everyone else? Look at the links if need-be. Just one answer. Please. Thank you.


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> I love rereading what I have written. I don't know, it's like... ahh, nvm, cant explain. I just love reliving an old emotion/mind frame. Its like turning the clock back and seeing it in a whole new light, yet still the emotion is the same, just in a different perspective. Where was I, where am i now, kinda tging. Nvm lol. Anyway, is another link...
> 
> 
> ESFJ or INFP??!
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/#/forumsite/20588/topics/542250?page=9


it keeps redirecting me to the main page. :/


----------



## Persephone Soul

Really? Thats weird. I just clicked on it from my phone, and it went to page 9 of my second thread. The first link was to my very first thread, a few pages in. Hmmm...


----------



## Barakiel

Still gonna say INFP for @SugarPlum until I get more information.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Blue Flare said:


> I only take notes of the relevant stuff, and if I miss something I check if my classmates wrote something else. I never write lists, as I have mental ones when I'm going to buy something. I just check what's missing at home and buy it, not checking other things at the supermarket as it's a waste of time. Indeed, that's why I hate to go shopping as I just want to get something specific, while my mom spends hours checking stuff.


I'm more like your mother.

I have to make lists, or I might put what's not needed in my cart. I love shopping; it's like a whole other world of new things to buy! So exciting... and I love exotic things in the supermarket. I am also a lazy cook, unless baking.

Interesting I am very good with my money (will I wear this? Do I need this? Will I use it), unless food. I waste money on food.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Were you able to access the link, Barakiel?

And thank you.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> I don't know either, shiny. *sigh*
> 
> I'm normally private with personal details, but expressive and at times opinionated (but usually when it hits something in my heart).
> 
> I'm either a more private Fe
> Or
> A more open Fi
> 
> Although, I cant get over the Fi/Si combo I feel I really have, strongly. Even when I go through a photo album. Omg. I relive each picture and my heart is awakened. I LIVE in those memories, all over again.


I think you are Fe because you do seem selective about what should or should not be said in a situation, but if something matters to you, it is hard for you to hold back. At least from what I've observed.

Fi dom is more like this:
















As you can see, all are very awkward and uncomfortable during their interviews, and it's hard to drill their values out. When they do express their opinions, it's a very matter of fact, dry quip. 

The Aubrey Plaza interview is especially great because Ellen is an Fe, so you get a contrast.

Kstew may actually be ISTJ... I'd have to investigate further, but Te and Fi are clear at least.

Can you relate? Why?

Isn't it strange how arbitrary my input on your guises types is? I can't explain it either.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Haha, don't worry, it's really difficult for some people to do that. :wink: Speaking of which, it's interesting, would you say all Fi-Te users are like how you described? I think my 7 Enneagram makes me a lot more agreeable, but still. :laughing:


Well these people are Fi doms, lol. I wouldn't say they're not... agreeable. It's more like their values are ambiguous because they guard them.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I have a brilliant concept in my mind, but need help transferring it onto paper.
> 
> My Ni wants me to plan my story about a young man called Jimenez and his sidekick, Juan, which I have been thinking about for years. My Ti wants me to research the hell outta what I am gonna write, and make it a logical, but true story. My Fe wants me to add a positive message to the ending and my Se is saying: "screw it, go listen to music. Play something. Interact with your environment."
> 
> I need a break, lol. I actually wanna write this story. I am actually prepared to put aside a few hours a week to achieve this. It's the beginning of the end for me.
> 
> What do I do? How do I know when to write/plan and how much time to spend on each? And how much time to spend researching? Someone help me out.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


You can write your ideas and then check what you need to research, specially if there are some topics that could be less clear cut. I also prefer to research as I can check the facts, specially as my inferior Se prefers to keep stuff realistic and also add some deeper meaning that's related to the story, which is unavoidable as I'm a Ni dom. Te would show in the part of keeping the logic of the story and Fi add some moral stuff that makes sense to me but probably rejects stuff that doesn't match with my own ethical ideas.

So, I think that you could write stuff when you're inspired and research when you have free time. The relevant points would be to define the main idea and what your characters will do and represent. I would guess that having a fixed schedule won't help much, as ideas may appear when you less expect them.


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> Unless people are constantly criticizing you for it?


*shrug*

But would you come up with it on your own, if no one ever said it to you?



SugarPlum said:


> I did that? My mom and husband do that. I hate it when they nag at me for coming off as cold.


But is it coming from you? Do YOU ever analyze your behavior from earlier in the day and think, "Was that cold? Did I seem cold?! Tell me, was I cold? Do you still like me, or did you feel like I was distant from you?!"

None of my Fi friends ever ask me if they came across as cold. I don't think it would occur to them, because Fi is so instinctively inclined to form silent bonds. The most I hear from my FP friends is, "I got yelled at for thanking a veteran for his service, so I don't do it anymore." It wasn't, "Do you think it's inappropriate to thank military vets for their service? Did I do it wrong??" 

Fi/Te can lay down the Te like no one's business. Rudely. Bluntly. 

I had lunch with a Fe and a Fi today. Fi amused us because Fe and me were making inappropriate jokes off of what she was saying, and she just kept saying it, staying on topic, and added that she would not tolerate such behavior inside her history classroom when she becomes a teacher. In fact, she would state up front that they'd better listen or risk being flunked. Knowing her, she'd do it, too. Lay down the Te law up front. Don't like it? There's the door. It's your education.

You can nitpick until the cows come home, or say that certain behaviors are influenced through former abuse or trauma or whatever and that's a valid point, but Fi is still ultimately based in self and distant from others' emotions. It is not prone to obsessive self-analyzing for motivations or flaws in itself, and it sources its own feelings on matters before it consults other people's.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I have a brilliant concept in my mind, but need help transferring it onto paper.
> 
> My Ni wants me to plan my story about a young man called Jimenez and his sidekick, Juan, which I have been thinking about for years. My Ti wants me to research the hell outta what I am gonna write, and make it a logical, but true story. My Fe wants me to add a positive message to the ending and my Se is saying: "screw it, go listen to music. Play something. Interact with your environment."
> 
> I need a break, lol. I actually wanna write this story. I am actually prepared to put aside a few hours a week to achieve this. It's the beginning of the end for me.
> 
> What do I do? How do I know when to write/plan and how much time to spend on each? And how much time to spend researching? Someone help me out.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


Just jump in. 

Do not worry about perfection (which might not be you). Just write. Discover what you want to research, and do it. You will know when you've found enough information.It's a guttural instinct I suppose. If you end up needing more down the line, repeat the process.

Knowing you can always revise is the greatest revelation.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Well these people are Fi doms, lol. I wouldn't say they're not... agreeable. It's more like their values are ambiguous because they guard them.


Ah, fair enough, it's just the way you worded that made it sound like they're not. :wink: Still gotta watch the videos myself, so I'm gonna do just that. :laughing:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Ah, fair enough, it's just the way you worded that made it sound like they're not. :wink: Still gotta watch the videos myself, so I'm gonna do just that. :laughing:


Tell me how you relate please!

The biggest thing I noticed with Fi doms is that they are generally misinterpreted as being disagreeable or cold. They don't mean to be. They either have difficulty expressing their values, or they just lay it down abruptly. Lorde for instance received unnecessary media attention for "trashing" celebrities; she was simply asked, and explained. Te just doesn't mince words is all. She actually strikes me as a very sweet person.
@SugarPlum before you say this is you (and it may be) think about why you're misinterpreted as cold. I am also considered cold or detached... I think I might have given that impression off in this thread a few times. It's overthinking for me, which delays responses... or trying to figure out people's motivations before I call value upon them.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

So, anyone see the new episode? I was watching basketball and that was pretty exciting, but then I remembered about GOT, that it's probably much more exciting tonight XD


----------



## Max

Blue Flare said:


> You can write your ideas and then check what you need to research, specially if there are some topics that could be less clear cut. I also prefer to research as I can check the facts, specially as my inferior Se prefers to keep stuff realistic and also add some deeper meaning that's related to the story, which is unavoidable as I'm a Ni dom. Te would show in the part of keeping the logic of the story and Fi add some moral stuff that makes sense to me but probably rejects stuff that doesn't match with my own ethical ideas.
> 
> So, I think that you could write stuff when you're inspired and research when you have free time. The relevant points would be to define the main idea and what your characters will do and represent. I would guess that having a fixed schedule won't help much, as ideas may appear when you less expect them.


Yes, some of my research is going to be culturally related. And geographical related also. But most of it is to refine and validate my idea to my own logical concepts. I want to get this right. I don't wanna mislead people in my writing. You know?

It's also gonna exercize my Fe. The people and community spirit in a sense. The two main characters are an IxFJ, and a psychotic ENTJ stuck in a Se-Te loop. Should be fun to write about xD I'll probably be on those forums a lot.



hoopla said:


> Just jump in.
> 
> Do not worry about perfection (which might not be you). Just write. Discover what you want to research, and do it. You will know when you've found enough in time. It's a guttural instinct I suppose.


I usually jump in when I write. I tend to be a good storyteller, but I am trying to get this one right. It needs a good bit of planning, as well as moving. It's the beginning of the series of the end, lol.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> fair phantom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless people are constantly criticizing you for it?
> 
> 
> 
> *shrug*
> 
> But would you come up with it on your own, if no one ever said it to you?
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did that? My mom and husband do that. I hate it when they nag at me for coming off as cold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But is it coming from you? Do YOU ever analyze your behavior from earlier in the day and think, "Was that cold? Did I seem cold?! Tell me, was I cold? Do you still like me, or did you feel like I was distant from you?!"
> 
> None of my Fi friends ever ask me if they came across as cold. I don't think it would occur to them, because Fi is so instinctively inclined to form silent bonds. The most I hear from my FP friends is, "I got yelled at for thanking a veteran for his service, so I don't do it anymore." It wasn't, "Do you think it's inappropriate to thank military vets for their service? Did I do it wrong??"
> 
> Fi/Te can lay down the Te like no one's business. Rudely. Bluntly.
> 
> I had lunch with a Fe and a Fi today. Fi amused us because Fe and me were making inappropriate jokes off of what she was saying, and she just kept saying it, staying on topic, and added that she would not tolerate such behavior inside her history classroom when she becomes a teacher. In fact, she would state up front that they'd better listen or risk being flunked. Knowing her, she'd do it, too. Lay down the Te law up front. Don't like it? There's the door. It's your education.
> 
> You can nitpick until the cows come home, or say that certain behaviors are influenced through former abuse or trauma or whatever and that's a valid point, but Fi is still ultimately based in self and distant from others' emotions. It is not prone to obsessive self-analyzing for motivations or flaws in itself, and it sources its own feelings on matters before it consults other people's.
Click to expand...

I agree. But where did I say that I ask if I seemed cold etc? I guess I am confused to why you are saying this in reference to me.

I genuinely want to know, where I said that.

With that being said, I am usually more worried about OTHER ppls coldness towards me. I next to never ask others if I was cold. I don't think I can ever remember doing that honestly. However, I may ask someone else if the other person seemed cold in their perspective as well. Or with my mom, in that story at the SSI office, i asked her when we were done, if i made sense to her, or was I speaking gibberish. Lol


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> *shrug*
> 
> But would you come up with it on your own, if no one ever said it to you?


I honestly don't know. But I clearly didn't realize when I was coming off cold as a child.


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, fair enough, it's just the way you worded that made it sound like they're not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still gotta watch the videos myself, so I'm gonna do just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me how you relate please!
> 
> The biggest thing I noticed with Fi doms is that they are genuinely misinterpreted as being disagreeable or cold. They don't mean to be. They either have difficulty expressing their values, or they just lay it down abruptly. Lorde for instance received unnecessary media attention for "trashing" celebrities; she was simply asked, and explained. She actually strikes me as a very sweet person.
> @SugarPlum before you say this is you (and it may be) think about why you're misinterpreted as cold. I am also considered cold or detached... I think I might have given that impression off in this thread a few times. It's overthinking for me, which delays responses... or trying to figure out people's motivations before I call value upon them.
Click to expand...

Lol, others see me as cold. That was my point. 

I think I am fine, but, according to my mom and husband, i look like. bitch. I don't ASK them. I think I am nice. They tell me, im not, unwarranted. Lol


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> I agree. But where did I say that I ask if I seemed cold etc? I guess I am confused to why you are saying this in reference to me.
> 
> I genuinely want to know, where I said that.
> 
> With that being said, I am usually more worried about OTHER ppls coldness towards me. I next to never ask others if I was cold. I don't think I can ever remember doing that honestly. However, I may ask someone else if the other person seemed cold in their perspective as well. Or with my mom, in that story at the SSI office, i asked her when we were done, if i made sense to her, or was I speaking gibberish. Lol


I didn't say that you asked if you seemed cold. You inferred that people tell you that you are cold all the time and it pisses you off, so I elaborated further in an attempt to help you discern between Fi/Fe for yourself, particularly as you were wondering about Fe/Ti/Ne earlier in the thread.

ETA: like @hoopla, I come across as cold a lot, and have been accused of being cold. I'm an introvert. I'm semi-detached. I don't bond easily. I'm also very inclined to over-think things, so that dampens my Fe a bit. But being Fe, I still WANT to be seen as socially appropriate, and an assessment of "cold" being an objective Fe-statement, worries me -- since I do not want to be SEEN as cold. Being cold means being unsocial in some way, and my Fe doesn't like that idea.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@SugarPlum said the other day that she tumbled for her. Her blog was for her. Not for anyone else. 

Struck me as... well, not Fe, or not like me at least. I blog so I can be appealing. I don't post what I want, I post what my blog needs to have the proper balance and variety to keep people entertained and provide what they desire. Blogging for me... What would that do? I am happy when I get followers.  And I can look up the stuff I actually want to see without re blogging it. 

Reminded me distinctly of my IxTJ friend. She showed me her blog and I realized she had an elaborate tagging system. I said, "wow! I've been working on something like that for my followers." She looked at me and replied, "Well, actually it's just for me... I like scrolling through the tags, it makes me happy." I admired that sense of... not needing outside affirmation, I guess, but it's a foreign concept to me. Blogging for oneself. Weird.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

LuchoIsLurking said:


> Yes, some of my research is going to be culturally related. And geographical related also. But most of it is to refine and validate my idea to my own logical concepts. I want to get this right. I don't wanna mislead people in my writing. You know?
> 
> It's also gonna exercize my Fe. The people and community spirit in a sense. The two main characters are an IxFJ, and a psychotic ENTJ stuck in a Se-Te loop. Should be fun to write about xD I'll probably be on those forums a lot.


Dunno if you've watched Death Note, as Light Yagami could work as an example of crazy ENTJ. I'm watching Utena, and Touga at the moment strikes me as a manipulative ENTJ, as he doesn't care at all about the feelings of other people, using them like pawns and openly lying to people for achieving his plans and getting more power.

That's good, as there's too much misinformation in texts, so trying to keep the story realistic can show also the more brutal side of the problems that you may mention there. Reality at the end is weirder than fiction, so you can use that too for your plot.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I honestly don't know. But I clearly didn't realize when I was coming off cold as a child.


Same honestly.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Tell me how you relate please!
> 
> The biggest thing I noticed with Fi doms is that they are generally misinterpreted as being disagreeable or cold. They don't mean to be. They either have difficulty expressing their values, or they just lay it down abruptly. Lorde for instance received unnecessary media attention for "trashing" celebrities; she was simply asked, and explained. She actually strikes me as a very sweet person.
> @SugarPlum before you say this is you (and it may be) think about why you're misinterpreted as cold. I am also considered cold or detached... I think I might have given that impression off in this thread a few times. It's overthinking for me, which delays responses... or trying to figure out people's motivations before I call value upon them.


Hm, it's interesting, she's really withdrawn into herself, but also has that definite Ne charm. :laughing:

Yeah, Fi is usually portrayed as a very selfish function, which, as I explained a while back, it... kind of is. It's a self oriented function, but that doesn't mean it looks to demean other people, it just considers its own morality more important to outside morality because, well, it's from within itself, of course it must be. That's the best I can explain my view on it, at least. Though, sometimes I do mean to be cold, if only because sometimes people need a Te shaped slap to the face. :dry:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

My aunt actually told me recently that she sees me as a very cold, analytical person. She's got into this whole Personality Typing thing at her job (tests I don't think are accurate, but of course I do not argue with her about it) and she told me, "Of course you would be the Reserved, Thinking type" or something. It was a bit of a shock to me. I'm sad that I come across as this way to my aunt (who I think is ESTJ?), but I don't know how to challenge that perception of me. I don't even know where to begin, and I don't feel comfortable enough to inquire about how she sees me like that.


----------



## Persephone Soul

At other times, they tell me I am such a bubbly loving person. I need to let that out more. They'll joke and say i need a shirt that says "beware. Doesn't play well with others". But they're just giving me a hard time.

I am super sweet when others initiate warm first. I return the favor. That I DO do.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @SugarPlum said the other day that she tumbled for her. Her blog was for her. Not for anyone else.
> 
> Struck me as... well, not Fe, or not like me at least. I blog so I can be appealing. I don't post what I want, I post what my blog needs to have the proper balance and variety to keep people entertained and provide what they desire. Blogging for me... What would that do? I am happy when I get followers.  And I can look up the stuff I actually want to see without re blogging it.
> 
> Reminded me distinctly of my IxTJ friend. She showed me her blog and I realized she had an elaborate tagging system. I said, "wow! I've been working on something like that for my followers." She looked at me and replied, "Well, actually it's just for me... I like scrolling through the tags, it makes me happy." I admired that sense of... not needing outside affirmation, I guess, but it's a foreign concept to me. Blogging for oneself. Weird.


Story of my life. Hence, why I do almost nothing truly for myself, and if I don't feel that my efforts are validated or appreciated or useful enough, I cease having any desire to do them. It sucks.

This is my usual cycle:

Why are you doing this? No one cares. No one wants to read what you write. So give up.
But I care, and I think I'm good, and I want to tell an amazing story.
Why?
To inspire people, or to teach them something, or to enlighten them about a historical figure that they might have perceived incorrectly.

It's still about them. My potential audience. It's all, "How far should I go with this? Will it offend some people? What phrasing should I use? How should I breach this difficult topic? Can I keep it from becoming too depressing?" Them. Them. Them. Bloody effing Fe.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. But where did I say that I ask if I seemed cold etc? I guess I am confused to why you are saying this in reference to me.
> 
> I genuinely want to know, where I said that.
> 
> With that being said, I am usually more worried about OTHER ppls coldness towards me. I next to never ask others if I was cold. I don't think I can ever remember doing that honestly. However, I may ask someone else if the other person seemed cold in their perspective as well. Or with my mom, in that story at the SSI office, i asked her when we were done, if i made sense to her, or was I speaking gibberish. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say that you asked if you seemed cold. You inferred that people tell you that you are cold all the time and it pisses you off, so I elaborated further in an attempt to help you discern between Fi/Fe for yourself, particularly as you were wondering about Fe/Ti/Ne earlier in the thread.
> 
> ETA: like @hoopla, I come across as cold a lot, and have been accused of being cold. I'm an introvert. I'm semi-detached. I don't bond easily. I'm also very inclined to over-think things, so that dampens my Fe a bit. But being Fe, I still WANT to be seen as socially appropriate, and an assessment of "cold" being an objective Fe-statement, worries me -- since I do not want to be SEEN as cold. Being cold means being unsocial in some way, and my Fe doesn't like that idea.
Click to expand...

Oh okay. Got yuh. Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. She had to do it completely exposed. Lena Headey nailed it of course.
> 
> Well the killing little girls thing was continued :chargrined:, still mad by how they messed up Dorne.
> 
> but there were a lot of good scenes and fortunately those came later in the episode.
> 
> Overall: :ambivalence:



* *




WHAT KILLING LITTLE GIRLS THING honestly what the heck. I knew I should have caught up on the Dorne plot :/ I really like that Myrc is home though? I mean lol it will make her easier to kill when they am rush the Lannisters but eh 

I wish I could watch the scene though. Honestly it was my favorite part of the fifth book. Gah.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Hoopla... oh. Um, I dont know. Not sure. I don't think I am cold. I just dont like small talk ( i know that phrase is over rated but its true). If I am at a register, please dont talk to me. Just smile, I'll smile back.. lets move on lol 

However, my coldness seems a little different i think from what I have heard. Its more of a "uninvited " aura i guess? But once they extend warmth, i do reciprocate. 

I wouldn't have personally been blunt like that, in your situation. Unless it would benefit the kid, I dont see any point.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> Hoopla... oh. Um, I dont know. Not sure. I don't think I am cold. I just dont like small talk ( i know that phrase is over rated but its true). If I am at a register, please dont talk to me. Just smile, I'll smile back.. lets move on lol
> 
> However, my coldness seems a little different i think from what I have heard. Its more of a "uninvited " aura i guess? But once they extend warmth, i do reciprocate.
> 
> I wouldn't have personally been blunt like that, in your situation. Unless it would benefit the kid, I dont see any point.


How do you reciprocate?


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT KILLING LITTLE GIRLS THING honestly what the heck. I knew I should have caught up on the Dorne plot :/ I really like that Myrc is home though? I mean lol it will make her easier to kill when they am rush the Lannisters but eh
> 
> I wish I could watch the scene though. Honestly it was my favorite part of the fifth book. Gah.


Ummmm...... :uncomfortableness:


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> No hammer; just a razor that tears people apart to shreds. When I cut too deep I'm stitching everyone up with care.


Well, I was technically referencing a philosophical concept. :wink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument


----------



## Barakiel

Am I the only one who likes the arc in Dorne? Maybe it's just me, or from what little I've seen and read, @fair phantom, @alittlebear, but it does really bring to light how much Jaime has changed. Do you imagine the cocky asshole from Season 1 doing what he's doing in Season 5? :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Am I the only one who likes the arc in Dorne? Maybe it's just me, or from what little I've seen and read, @fair phantom, @alittlebear, but it does really bring to light how much Jaime has changed. Do you imagine the cocky asshole from Season 1 doing what he's doing in Season 5? :happy:


I love Jaime. But I care about more than Jaime and they have horribly mischaracterized Dorne and the Dornish (at least all the Dornish women because of course they did :dry House Martell is my favourite house and I was so excited and they messed it all up.

ETA: you know what also showed Jaime's character growth? his plotline in the books, especially since he fell out of love with Cersei.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Ummmm...... :uncomfortableness:


What is happening omg
@Barakiel on Jaime he's never been a favorite of mine. Like idk I was alright with him but that clip of how he treated Jon Snow still sticks with me. I can't get over it :/


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hoopla... oh. Um, I dont know. Not sure. I don't think I am cold. I just dont like small talk ( i know that phrase is over rated but its true). If I am at a register, please dont talk to me. Just smile, I'll smile back.. lets move on lol
> 
> However, my coldness seems a little different i think from what I have heard. Its more of a "uninvited " aura i guess? But once they extend warmth, i do reciprocate.
> 
> I wouldn't have personally been blunt like that, in your situation. Unless it would benefit the kid, I dont see any point.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you reciprocate?
Click to expand...

Oh I reread the story about the kid. I read it wrong the first time.

So I would have told the kid; " i know it hurts to try and fit it hunny. Sometimes people and kids just think that when other people are 'different', they should stay away. They are scared that if they hang out with 'different' people, then others will think they are different too. The thing is... *break out in sill song and dance, in barneys voice* "everybodys special, special. Everyone in his or her own way.. ". Lol

Reciprocate? Just be pleasant and sweet back. Shyfully smilley. Warm.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> What is happening omg
> @Barakiel on Jaime he's never been a favorite of mine. Like idk I was alright with him but that clip of how he treated Jon Snow still sticks with me. I can't get over it :/


Do you really want to know?


* *




Myrcella is the little girl that dies. Fauxllaria poisons Myrcella so that she dies departing Dorne...in Jaime's arms.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I love Jaime. But I care about more than Jaime and they have horribly mischaracterized Dorne and the Dornish (at least all the Dornish women because of course they did :dry House Martell is my favourite house and I was so excited and they messed it all up.


Well, you are speaking from the perspective of someone who's read the books. :wink: Though, from what I've seen, I like Doran and Trystane, they actually seem reasonable. :happy: Mind you, this is from the view of someone who's read none of the books, so I don't know how the characters differ from those of the book.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Well, I was technically referencing a philosophical concept. :wink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument


I feel smart. :smilet-digitalpoint


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Do you really want to know?
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Myrcella is the little girl that dies. Fauxllaria poisons Myrcella so that she dies departing Dorne...in Jaime's arms.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Well, you are speaking from the perspective of someone who's read the books. :wink: Though, from what I've seen, I like Doran and Trystane, they actually seem reasonable. :happy: Mind you, this is from the view of someone who's read none of the books, so I don't know how the characters differ from those of the book.


Yeah they made the male characters reasonable and they made the female dornish characters into irrational violent murderers. It's infuriatingly sexist. Doran is pretty much the same in book and show. 
* *




Trystane is a child in the books and the heir to Dorne is Doran's eldest...a daughter, since Dorne lets women inherit. She was of course cut from the show.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> What is happening omg
> @Barakiel on Jaime he's never been a favorite of mine. Like idk I was alright with him but that clip of how he treated Jon Snow still sticks with me. I can't get over it :/


Well, when I think of Jaime, one clip sticks in mind, and it's the moment in Season 3 where you learn the depths he has when he talks with Brienne about the Mad King. Sure, he does some truly terrible things, like cripple Bran, but I like him for the same reason I like The Hound, they're _human_, they're different to the masks they put on to deal with their pain. You go along thinking that they're as selfish and evil as every other villain in the show, and then a truly humanizing moment comes up, like the Hound saving Sansa from being raped, or Jaime killing the Mad King to save thousands. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

* *




judging from Tumblr they didn't do the Jon Snow thing did they? The Cersei thing was the big shock?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> Oh I reread the story about the kid. I read it wrong the first time.
> 
> So would have told the kid, like " i know iy hurts to try and fit it hunny. Sometimes people and kids just think that when other people are 'different', they should stay away. They are scared that if the hang out with 'different' people, then others will think they are different too. The thing is... *break out in sill song and dance* "everybodys special, special. Everyone in his or her own way.. ". Lol
> 
> Reciprocate? Just be pleasant and sweet back. Shyfully smilley. Warm.


Your value feels very extroverted to me. Not a cut and dry response, I don't think. Fi-Te would probably be more like "Well that's just the way it is; those kids don't understand. There's nothing wrong with it".

It looks like your warmth is reached out to people tenfold. And you strike me as a defender.  In a good way. Lend a helping hand type.

Whatever you are it's Feeler with Ne and Si. Whatever you chose is your choice.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> judging from Tumblr they didn't do the Jon Snow thing did they? The Cersei thing was the big shock?


They did it. It was the last scene.


----------



## Persephone Soul

@hoopla

I could have put a strong bet on that being your end conclusion. LOL

So top THREE answers?

ESFJ
____
____


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Yeah they made the male characters reasonable and they made the female dornish characters into irrational violent murderers. It's infuriatingly sexist. Doran is pretty much the same in book and show.
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trystane is a child in the books and the heir to Dorne is Doran's eldest...a daughter, since Dorne lets women inherit. She was of course cut from the show.


Well, I don't really think that was intentional, as we've seen a few examples of strong female characters in this show, Arya, Brienne, even Sansa counts in her own way. We'll have to see from here on where he goes with the Dorne women, but I rather like them, even though they're, y'know, evil, they're likeably evil. And they even have their own bantering, it's rather funny. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear Tonight's episode gave me some hope that Sansa's character hasn't been completely lost. Which is good because she is one of my favourites.


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> @SugarPlum honestly I'm concerned by how you seem to want to choose whatever type the most people see you as, that you're so concerned with our rankings of how we could see you. I don't think it works like that. What matters is the _type you truly are_, not the type people could most easily see you as. Or the type they could next most likely see you as. You're getting caught up in the side trails and not continuing along the path you need to to find your type. ^^


Please dont say that lol. I have seen SO many of us, do this. please dont single me out. I have my own reasons for seeking consensus of opinions. I never once said I would "choose whatever everyone says i am as a whole". In fact, i have said many times that I will make the final decision. That still stands. Also, I think if this were the case, ESFJ would be above my avatar instead of INFP. My road to my type has been well over a year now (going on 2) and 90% has been without any help from others.

I am genuinely stuck between sfj and infp. If there is a landslide in votes here, that may be something for m to consider looking in to. But yes, i know the decision is mine.

I feel that was a little unfair, when we have all been guilty of this. :/


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear Tonight's episode gave me some hope that Sansa's character hasn't been completely lost. Which is good because she is one of my favourites.


Gah, I cannot wait to see these new clips. Well, all but the Cersei one.  But I have the book to read for that. Her internal thoughts are truly the best part. The poor dear.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Barakiel 

How have I not heard of this law of the instrument?

I know of the Hierarchy of Needs. I enjoy it but find it somewhat simplified; everyone has different needs. I also agree with the criticisms of the arrangement of needs. 

I think the law of the instrument is the fatal flaw of human beings. It just makes me cringe.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> Please dont say that lol. have seen SO many of us, do this. please dont single me out. I have my own reasons for seeking consensus of opinions. I never once said I would "choose whatever everyone says i am as a whole". In fact, i have said many times that I will make the final decision. That still stands. Also, I think if this were the case, ESFJ would be above my avatar instead of INFP.
> 
> I am genuinely stuck between sfj and infp. If there is a landslide in votes here, that may be something for m to consider looking in to. But yes, i know the decision is mine.
> 
> I feel that was a little unfair, when we have all been guilty of this. :/


Oh... I'm really sorry. I did not mean to come across this way. I understand that my tone came across as scolding, but I meant it to guide. I know that we do this, but your continual insistence that we rate the top three types we most see you as... I do not think that is useful (especially... the top three? Why not the one type?). I just wanted to give you my advice, that I do not think that asking for these ratings will bring you anything but confusion and further burrowing down rabbit holes. Of course the decision is yours and I think you realize that, but I do not think that seeking outside opinions as you sometimes do with the ratings is going to help you as you think it will.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Phantom. Hoopla, still ESFJ before ISFJ?
> 
> angelcat? Oswin? Bear? Barakiel?
> 
> 
> 
> Think about which type you want to be, then choose the opposite one to that.
Click to expand...

Ugh. Buy i 100% want to know which I REALLY am. It bugs me that I can't get to that one TRUTH. 

Its okay. I got this. Thanks anyway, everyone.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> @Barakiel
> 
> How have I not heard of this law of the instrument?
> 
> I know of the Hierarchy of Needs. I enjoy it but find it somewhat simplified; everyone has different needs. I also agree with the criticisms of the arrangement of needs.
> 
> I think the law of the instrument is the fatal flaw of human beings. It just makes me cringe.


I only heard of it myself through TV Tropes. :wink: And honestly, I think it's a rather curt summation of the flaws of the naturally talented individual, so good at this one particular thing that they use it for everything. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

Speaking of TV Tropes, you talking about the recent episode interested me, so I decided to read the summary of it, and...

*WHAT THE HOLY HELL IS WITH ALL THESE CHARACTERS DYING.* I mean, I know Game of Thrones isn't averse to this, hell, it's the fucking benchmark, but seriously?! :whoa:


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Ugh. Buy i 100% want to know which I REALLY am. It bugs me that I can't get to that one TRUTH.
> 
> Its okay. I got this. Thanks anyway, everyone.


Haha, just making a note that I'm an ISFP, and I *DESPISE* ISFPs, at least fictional ones. :happy: So if you want to be a particular type, perhaps you're not that type, and it's merely a fantasy? :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I actually do not understand why everyone classically says "GOT is brutal to characters." Maybe I've been reading more hardcore stuff than everyone else... but not that many characters die, especially not protagonists. Smallfolk die, but that's what happens with any story involving large scale fighting. Main characters do die at certain moments to be "shocking," but even then it doesn't feel shocking to me. Other series do the same. 

I just. Laugh and shake my head internally a little every time someone makes a reference to how "everyone dies" in GOT/ASOIAF. Are people really that weak? (No offense, but... That's what I think. I do not consider the death toll in GOT all that significant, to be quite honest.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Haha, just making a note that I'm an ISFP, and I *DESPISE* ISFPs, at least fictional ones. :happy: So if you want to be a particular type, perhaps you're not that type, and it's merely a fantasy? :wink:


ISFPs are literally my favorites.


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please dont say that lol. have seen SO many of us, do this. please dont single me out. I have my own reasons for seeking consensus of opinions. I never once said I would "choose whatever everyone says i am as a whole". In fact, i have said many times that I will make the final decision. That still stands. Also, I think if this were the case, ESFJ would be above my avatar instead of INFP.
> 
> I am genuinely stuck between sfj and infp. If there is a landslide in votes here, that may be something for m to consider looking in to. But yes, i know the decision is mine.
> 
> I feel that was a little unfair, when we have all been guilty of this. :/
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... I'm really sorry. I did not mean to come across this way. I understand that my tone came across as scolding, but I meant it to guide. I know that we do this, but your continual insistence that we rate the top three types we most see you as... I do not think that is useful (especially... the top three? Why not the one type?). I just wanted to give you my advice, that I do not think that asking for these ratings will bring you anything but confusion and further burrowing down rabbit holes. Of course the decision is yours and I think you realize that, but I do not think that seeking outside opinions as you sometimes do with the ratings is going to help you as you think it will.
Click to expand...

Well i do want everyone say ONE type. Everytime I say that, I get answers like SFJ or NFP. So thats 4. By me ruling out 4th option , i then see which side of the spectrum they land on. If someone said "isfj, infp and esfj", then i would see that the favor the sfj spectrum. Layer i may ask that same person between the 2 (after further information has been provided). I keep tabs on what everyone says and what changed their mind. It is my way of getting the real answer from them without sounding too specific? But that wasn't working so now i am going with just one answer each. Honesty its just how i do things. I am being persistent because everyone gets so off track on here, so i am keeping the persistence. 

There are reasons lol. None of which will result in my final decision. Just part of my process. Like i said 90 % has been solo.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> Ugh. Buy i 100% want to know which I REALLY am. It bugs me that I can't get to that one TRUTH.
> 
> Its okay. I got this. Thanks anyway, everyone.


And see that looks like low order Ti to me. You just have to find that purity of logic, and get upset when you can't.

I think there was a lot of low order Ti in your story. The inconsistences and flaws you mention look like they were based on your own conclusions, and there's a distinct immaturity in it's execution (everyone's low order functions are immature to a degree so it's not criticism). 

I think @alittlebear meant that you seem to rely *too* much on the general consensus. I think you need to figure your type out for yourself. We are confusing you it seems, and people are often wrong.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> @Barakiel
> 
> How have I not heard of this law of the instrument?
> 
> I know of the Hierarchy of Needs. I enjoy it but find it somewhat simplified; everyone has different needs. I also agree with the criticisms of the arrangement of needs.
> 
> I think the law of the instrument is the fatal flaw of human beings. It just makes me cringe.


Yeah Maslow's Hierarchy of needs can be, I think, useful on a broad scale, but as sp-last I look at it and go "lol no." (for me personally)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Yeah Maslow's Hierarchy of needs can be, I think, useful on a broad scale, but as sp-last I look at it and go "lol no." (for me personally)


_Same._


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I actually do not understand why everyone classically says "GOT is brutal to characters." Maybe I've been reading more hardcore stuff than everyone else... but not that many characters die, especially not protagonists. Smallfolk die, but that's what happens with any story involving large scale fighting. Main characters do die at certain moments to be "shocking," but even then it doesn't feel shocking to me. Other series do the same.
> 
> I just. Laugh and shake my head internally a little every time someone makes a reference to how "everyone dies" in GOT/ASOIAF. Are people really that weak? (No offense, but... That's what I think. I do not consider the death toll in GOT all that significant, to be quite honest.)


Calling other people weak is rather insulting, coming from you. :wink: I think the appeal comes from the fact that the main character dies at the end of Season 1, and having zero plot armor. Hell, you can even argue something like Fate/Zero has plot armor, though it's the only show which I think equals the death toll in Game of Thrones. And considering how many plot threads are cut in this season finale, that's a lot. :laughing:



alittlebear said:


> ISFPs are literally my favorites.


You are very strange. :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

@Barakiel why is it strange? There are lots of great ISFP characters!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I think Sansa was brought up... Honestly, Sansa means so much to me. This is so silly... but she has given me strength. She has been my trauma buddy. I finished GOT just as I was first traumatized, and... I felt like we were one, experiencing the same cruelties. Absurd, but that was my thought. The connection has stayed with me. I like to think I'm less pathetic and whiny than she is, but I do think that we have both been through things we should not have... and her strength comforts me. When I am triggered, I sometimes think "Sansa survived this, and I can too." Ridiculous, because Sansa is a character lacking compassion and integrity at times... but it's what I do nonetheless. I don't know, that's a bit personal, but she really does mean a lot to me.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Nope, i am not confused at all. I am just stuck. I dont think i rely anymore than anyone else on here. I don't tely. But getting a "straight to the point" consensus built on here is like pulling teeth LOL.

I actually shared that story because I was set on INFP at the time. When this situation happened, i was like WHOLEY SHIT, MAYBE I DO USE TI! But I was sure if it was inferior Te because of the way I wanted to explode for logical reasons. Not ethical ones.

And let me just add, she WAS actually WRONG. Later another worker fixed it. 

I dont think anyone is wrong here, and i am not confused. Just stuck, and curious for other view ponts. That simple. Lol

I am not relying on the consensus. I just have everyone's attention for once on this thread, and want one while i still have it LOL.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel why is it strange? There are lots of great ISFP characters!


*grumbles* Yeah... maybe... I suppose... :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I think Sansa was brought up... Honestly, Sansa means so much to me. This is so silly... but she has given me strength. She has been my trauma buddy. I finished GOT just as I was first traumatized, and... I felt like we were one, experiencing the same cruelties. Absurd, but that was my thought. The connection has stayed with me. I like to think I'm less pathetic and whiny than she is, but I do think that we have both been through things we should not have... and her strength comforts me. When I am triggered, I sometimes think "Sansa survived this, and I can too." Ridiculous, because Sansa is a character lacking compassion and integrity at times... but it's what I do nonetheless. I don't know, that's a bit personal, but she really does mean a lot to me.


I don't find it absurd. I think that is one reason that fiction is so powerful: it can help us find hope and strength, and the feeling that someone understands.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> *grumbles* Yeah... maybe... I suppose... :dry:


There are more cool ISFP characters than INFP characters. -_-


----------



## Persephone Soul

I guess I can move on though. No biggie. 

I haven't seen tonights show, but I do know, I agree with you BEAR. Sansa has actually become almost my favorite. It was and always has been Dany, and not so much Sansa in the beginning. But now? Sansa is VERY close at my top fave female. Very close. Margery would be close 3rd.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> There are more cool ISFP characters than INFP characters. -_-


Well, there is Shinji Ikari from Eva. :wink:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Well, there is Shinji Ikari from Eva. :wink:


-_-


----------



## Barakiel

If we're talking about characters who you feel share an experience with you, Saber from Fate Zero, ironically. :wink: Although actually, Archer from Fate Stay Night was the basis for my entire base personality beyond the age of 15. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> -_-


Aw, he's not so bad, I actually love him as a character. :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Aw, he's not so bad, I actually love him as a character. :happy:


I do to, but it...isn't flattering. XD


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Ah. Characters that remind me of me beyond trauma related things. A difficult thought. I can come up with characters I wish to be like, but the ones I am like... That's harder, and a sadder list. 

Well, Tohru Hondra from Fruit's Basket is me. Or so I was told by several anime lovers I know.  She even looks like me. I would get a video of her, but they're difficult to find.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Ah. Characters that remind me of me beyond trauma related things. A difficult thought. I can come up with characters I wish to be like, but the ones I am like... That's harder, and a sadder list.
> 
> Well, Tohru Hondra from Fruit's Basket is me. Or so I was told by several anime lovers I know.  She even looks like me. I would get a video of her, but they're difficult to find.


Aw I love her!!


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Ah. Characters that remind me of me beyond trauma related things. A difficult thought. I can come up with characters I wish to be like, but the ones I am like... That's harder, and a sadder list.
> 
> Well, Tohru Hondra from Fruit's Basket is me. Or so I was told by several anime lovers I know.  She even looks like me. I would get a video of her, but they're difficult to find.


Haha, I can see the resemblance, really. She's basically the archetypical nice girl, who solves everyone's problems by sympathizing and loving them enough. A big ball of Fe. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I do to, but it...isn't flattering. XD


To be fair, neither is Saber, she's an idealistic idiot, and Archer is a big broken ball of Fi. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Aw I love her!!


Oh, you know who I'm talking about  That series was so wonderful. I think the anime is rather terrible, but the manga is brilliant. Just... so many characters, so many feelings, so much moral wrong, so much moral right. Gah, it was just so gorgeous. They're hard to get ahold of now, but I would like to browse the series again.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Okay, I honestly feel dumb right now for even going here again lol. 

I was thinking about the whole gathering consensus thing. It is most definitely my way of processing logical situations. I was thinking, wow. I do this a LOT. I hardly ever agree with the consensus. Like hardly ever. But I do a lot of "polls" in my life. This reason right here, almost had me saying "yep, Fe for shizz then".

But then, i got to thinking. .. wait, but isn't that more of a ethical and morality thing? To gather consensus and poll others on values and Fe things?

Wouldn't a Te user do the same, but for logical things? That is what i use 'polling' for. Logical reasoning.

If someone can clear this up for me, and show me that no, (lower) Te would not do this. It's only an Fe thing, regardless if it's a ethical vs logical thing. Then, I will have NO way to escape from a Fe diagnosis lol. None. I "poll" and seek consensus a lot (usually just the main ppl in my life), but always about what's logical etc. Never on my values.

hoopla? Angelcat? Does low Te do this at all?

This question I feel will really fill in the large gap i have missing. This is the final piece i think.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> To be fair, neither is Saber, she's an idealistic idiot, and Archer is a big broken ball of Fi. :happy:


Aw I like saber so far. I don't have a problem with idealistic. At least she gets to be heroic. INFPs basically never get to be heroic. (I was going to go with bada-- but Bear seems to dislike swearing :friendly_wink


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> Okay, I honestly feel dumb right now for even going here again lol.
> 
> I was thinking about the whole gathering consensus thing. It is most definitely my way of processing logical situations. I was thinking, wow. I do this a LOT. I hardly ever agree with the consensus. Like hardly ever. But I do a lot of "poles" in my life. This reason right here, almost had me saying "yep, Fe for shizz then".
> 
> But then, i got to thinking. .. wait, but isn't that more of a ethical and morality thing? To gather consensus and pole others on values and Fe thing?
> 
> Wouldn't a Te user do the same, but for logical things? That is what i use poling for. Logical reasoning.


Yeah that sounds more Te to me tbh.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Aw I like saber so far. I don't have a problem with idealistic. At least she gets to be heroic. INFPs basically never get to be heroic. (I was going to go with bada-- but Bear seems to dislike swearing :friendly_wink


Haha, yeah, idealistic isn't bad, but still. :wink: Well, Rebuild of Evangelion would disagree with you. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Haha, yeah, idealistic isn't bad, but still. :wink: Well, Rebuild of Evangelion would disagree with you. :laughing:


True. I think maybe INFPs get to have more of those moments in anime?


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> True. I think maybe INFPs get to have more of those moments in anime?


Well, depends on the show, really. For instance, Fate/Zero? Nope. :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Well, depends on the show, really. For instance, Fate/Zero? Nope. :dry:


Yeah but I'm trying to think of _any_ non-anime examples and I'm coming up short. I guess Bill Weasley from Harry Potter. That's all I got atm.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Oh, you know who I'm talking about  That series was so wonderful. I think the anime is rather terrible, but the manga is brilliant. Just... so many characters, so many feelings, so much moral wrong, so much moral right. Gah, it was just so gorgeous. They're hard to get ahold of now, but I would like to browse the series again.


Haven't read the manga, only saw up until the abusive chick appeared in the anime and lost interest. :laughing: Still, I get the feeling I wouldn't like it, no moral ambiguity. :wink:


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Barakiel said:


> Haha, just making a note that I'm an ISFP, and I *DESPISE* ISFPs, at least fictional ones. :happy: So if you want to be a particular type, perhaps you're not that type, and it's merely a fantasy? :wink:


Lots of great ISFP characters like Harry Potter, Fry, the Dude...

I think Shirou is an example of an ISFP but I don't know your opinion on him (and speaking of F/S N, I've been addicted to that the last couple of days which is why I haven't been posting a lot. I think some of the talking about it a while ago inspired to start reading the VN. It is really good :friendly_wink


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Yeah but I'm trying to think of _any_ non-anime examples and I'm coming up short. I guess Bill Weasley from Harry Potter. That's all I got atm.


Well, Aang from The Last Airbender is an ENFP, so I suppose that counts. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm trying to think of other characters I relate to and having a hard time. 

I'll go through common series I know and list. 

Harry Potter - hmm. Parents say I'm Hermione. Everyone else says "just like Luna". I got a "Luna and Neville" combo one time. I want more than anything to be Lily, but... Of course, that's what every girl wants, is it not?

PJO - idk if anyone here even reads that? Hmm. I related to Juniper a ridiculous lot, and I relate some to Hazel (though perhaps for trauma reasons). I loved Bianca, but she's another ISFP. Sigh. 

Twilight - I used to relate to Alice I guess? What even is her type? I desired to be like an Esme/Carlisle combo though. They are perfect and I love them. And ehhh I'm actually most like Angela I think, honestly 

The Hunger Games - Prim! I am so Prim. And Delly. And I like to think I am Rue, but it is difficult to assert that because Rue is just... perfect, a ball of perfection, but.

GOT, since we're discussing it - idk. Related to Dany a lot when I first read because I was stupid. Back then I thought I was INFP and I searched high and low on any typing topic I could find for evidence that she was INFP too, lol. I relate a lot to Margaery in the books, and apart from that... I really don't know. I'm actually not very much like Sansa. My annoyance tolerance is much higher, and I'm much... Friendlier. Bouncier. Smiling even when I'm sad. Sansa goes through a lot, but she doesn't go through it happily. I'm ultra happy when I'm neutral, and when I am upset I usually just explode. I'm odd like that. 
But... Yeah. Sadly I probably have related to Dany the most. And Missandei some, the small parts she is given in the books.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Well, Aang from The Last Airbender is an ENFP, so I suppose that counts. :wink:


No ENFP doesn't count  but *smacks forehead* ZUKO is INFP.


----------



## Barakiel

Avalnoah said:


> Lots of great ISFP characters like Harry Potter, Fry, the Dude...
> 
> I think Shirou is an example of an ISFP but I don't know your opinion on him (and speaking of F/S N, I've been addicted to that the last couple of days which is why I haven't been posting a lot. I think some of the talking about it a while ago inspired to start reading the VN. It is really good :friendly_wink


Yeah, I don't mind Harry Potter, but I have a love/hate relationship with Shirou.

Shirou's so ISFP it hurts, so focused on his morals that he ignores reality, and uses Te assertions to back it up. Oh yeah, it's a brilliant series, and the VN is pretty good too, although, imo, UBW is the weakest route in terms of ending, Fate is ok as a beginner, and Heaven's Feel... so much awesome it's too hard to explain. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Haven't read the manga, only saw up until the abusive chick appeared in the anime and lost interest. :laughing: Still, I get the feeling I wouldn't like it, no moral ambiguity. :wink:


Moral ambiguity, who needs it? Just let everyone be treated kindly in the end and learn to love one another


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Moral ambiguity, who needs it? Just let everyone be treated kindly in the end and learn to love one another


And everything gets tied up in a nice little bow, right? Yeah, no. :laughing:


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Actually researching it, there are actually only a few ISFP characters, at least compared to other types in fiction. Can anyone even name an ISFP villain?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> And everything gets tied up in a nice little bow, right? Yeah, no. :laughing:


You would be a Hamlet lover, wouldn't you 

I cannot stand Hamlet the play. (Too lazy to italicize.) Gosh. I mean, all the characters stink, except maybe, what, Horatio? And the play is openly misogynistic, which is done artfully but still when you have the protagonist cursing women and nothing checking him by the end... Ugh. I would probably be okay with it if it weren't for all the ableism that comes within the play, and of course the blatant ableism of everyone within five miles if you get into any "deep" discussion of the text. Ugh. 

But... The lack of a tie up also annoys me. Countless books have dissected Hamlet. It's hard to know the truth of the text or to think you know the truth of the text, especially as an undergraduate student. And that's daunting, being faced with my own ignorance. 

But, nah. I like Othello better. Desdemona I decided is the character most like me in Shakespeare (that I've come across so far)


----------



## Barakiel

Avalnoah said:


> Actually researching it, there are actually only a few ISFP characters, at least compared to other types in fiction. Can anyone even name an ISFP villain?


Aladdin's Jafar. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Avalnoah said:


> Actually researching it, there are actually only a few ISFP characters, at least compared to other types in fiction. Can anyone even name an ISFP villain?


The one in my story 8D


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> You would be a Hamlet lover, wouldn't you
> 
> I cannot stand Hamlet the play. (Too lazy to italicize.) Gosh. I mean, all the characters stink, except maybe, what, Horatio? And the play is openly misogynistic, which is done artfully but still when you have the protagonist cursing women and nothing checking him by the end... Ugh. I would probably be okay with it if it weren't for all the ableism that comes within the play, and of course the blatant ableism of everyone within five miles if you get into any "deep" discussion of the text. Ugh.
> 
> But... The lack of a tie up also annoys me. Countless books have dissected Hamlet. It's hard to know the truth of the text or to think you know the truth of the text, especially as an undergraduate student. And that's daunting, being faced with my own ignorance.
> 
> But, nah. I like Othello better. Desdemona I decided is the character most like me in Shakespeare (that I've come across so far)


Haha, no, I hate Shakespeare, too wordy. :laughing:

I'm a big fan of bittersweet endings, though, and actually, I hate the ending of UBW for exactly the reason you stated, it's open ended and you have no idea whether the major conflict was really avoided. In the other stories, it was certain, but in this one, nope. That, and because I don't think my favorite character got a proper send-off. :frustrating:

But anyway, that's neither here nor there. :happy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

For instance, I will make a text of all 3 places my little family could move to. I will put each house, what their amenities, price, location, size etc. I will list the pros and cons.

Then i will group send it to my BFF, sister and mom. I will say "pick one with your over all high score... option #1, #2 or #3 .."

They will send me their option number. Short sweet an to the point. I take all their answers into consideration along with mine and my husbands.

Will I blindly choose whatever the highest number of votes is? Nope. We actually ended up picking the option this last March, that had the least votes. It just helps me process in a weird way.

I already did the hard work by gathering all our possible options and weeding through them to narrow it down to just 3 houses. So at that point, either one was a good choice. But, I still wanted others logical input.


----------



## Rebel Sheep

alittlebear said:


> You would be a Hamlet lover, wouldn't you
> 
> I cannot stand Hamlet the play. (Too lazy to italicize.) Gosh. I mean, all the characters stink, except maybe, what, Horatio? And the play is openly misogynistic, which is done artfully but still when you have the protagonist cursing women and nothing checking him by the end... Ugh. I would probably be okay with it if it weren't for all the ableism that comes within the play, and of course the blatant ableism of everyone within five miles if you get into any "deep" discussion of the text. Ugh.
> 
> But... The lack of a tie up also annoys me. Countless books have dissected Hamlet. It's hard to know the truth of the text or to think you know the truth of the text, especially as an undergraduate student. And that's daunting, being faced with my own ignorance.
> 
> But, nah. I like Othello better. Desdemona I decided is the character most like me in Shakespeare (that I've come across so far)


Ableism in _Hamlet_? Would you mind explaining that?

Also, if I remember correctly, the majority of the sexism is Hamlet with Ophelia right? I never really saw it as sexism since him being rude to Ophelia is part of his act.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> You would be a Hamlet lover, wouldn't you
> 
> I cannot stand Hamlet the play. (Too lazy to italicize.) Gosh. I mean, all the characters stink, except maybe, what, Horatio? And the play is openly misogynistic, which is done artfully but still when you have the protagonist cursing women and nothing checking him by the end... Ugh. I would probably be okay with it if it weren't for all the ableism that comes within the play, and of course the blatant ableism of everyone within five miles if you get into any "deep" discussion of the text. Ugh.
> 
> But... The lack of a tie up also annoys me. Countless books have dissected Hamlet. It's hard to know the truth of the text or to think you know the truth of the text, especially as an undergraduate student. And that's daunting, being faced with my own ignorance.
> 
> But, nah. I like Othello better. Desdemona I decided is the character most like me in Shakespeare (that I've come across so far)


Ophelia's death checks him. (I love Ophelia)

I looooove when texts have multiple interpretations. Having just one right answer is so boring to me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Avalnoah said:


> Ableism in _Hamlet_? Would you mind explaining that?
> 
> Also, if I remember correctly, the majority of the sexism is Hamlet with Ophelia right? I never really saw it as sexism since him being rude to Ophelia is part of his act.


Sorry, I would mind explaining it. It's a touchy topic for me. Think for a second about how they treated Hamlet when they decided he was "mad". Now think about the things that students and professors might say about Hamlet's insanity and the generalizations they would make about "insane people". Then throw Ophelia's suicide and preceding madness into the mix. You get a big ableist discussion that makes my heart tear.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Sorry, I would mind explaining it. It's a touchy topic for me. Think for a second about how they treated Hamlet when they decided he was "mad". Now think about the things that students and professors might say about Hamlet's insanity and the generalizations they would make about "insane people". Then throw Ophelia's suicide and preceding madness into the mix. You get a big ableist discussion that makes my heart tear.


wow...none of that happened in my class when we discussed Hamlet. I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. :ssad:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Sorry, I would mind explaining it. It's a touchy topic for me. Think for a second about how they treated Hamlet when they decided he was "mad". Now think about the things that students and professors might say about Hamlet's insanity and the generalizations they would make about "insane people". Then throw Ophelia's suicide and preceding madness into the mix. You get a big ableist discussion that makes my heart tear.


Wouldn't that also apply to human nature as a whole? Can't really blame Hamlet, or Shakespeare, alone for that. :wink:


----------



## Rebel Sheep

That has always perplexed me. Why do you read the ASOIF series Little Bear when you know its all about the depths of human depravity. It never seemed like your cup of tea.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Wouldn't that also apply to human nature as a whole? Can't really blame Hamlet, or Shakespeare, alone for that. :wink:


I don't want to discuss this, and it's one of those things I don't like messing around with in conversation. Ableism is wrong. Period. No one deserves to be dehumanized for lacking what others are naturally given. Hopefully this will be able to be my final word on this tonight. Do not press me in these matters.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Avalnoah said:


> That has always perplexed me. Why do you read the ASOIF series Little Bear when you know its all about the depths of human depravity. It never seemed like your cup of tea.


Oh, I love it. I love seeing the nasty side of humanity, reading about it. That is what's real. That's the truth. I can read some books that go against that to a more idealist picture of us - Lois Lowry's books, for instance, and Disney - but that poetry of morality does not change the fact that life is not poetic, that life is cruel and terrible and people are hateful and mean and too often heartless. I love sweet stories, but I also love stories that get to the truth of how we humans do truly act on the outside.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I don't want to discuss this, and it's one of those things I don't like messing around with in conversation. Ableism is wrong. Period. No one deserves to be dehumanized for lacking what others are naturally given. Hopefully this will be able to be my final word on this tonight. Do not press me in these matters.


If you say so. However, calling out Shakespeare for accurately depicting something in reality seems a bit odd, is all I'm saying. :wink: And now we're going to end this topic, right? :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> If you say so. However, calling out Shakespeare for accurately depicting something in reality seems a bit odd, is all I'm saying. :wink: And now we're going to end this topic, right? :happy:


You do not know when to stop, do you.


----------



## Persephone Soul

SugarPlum said:


> For instance, I will make a text of all 3 places my little family could move to. I will put each house, what their amenities, price, location, size etc. I will list the pros and cons.
> 
> Then i will group send it to my BFF, sister and mom. I will say "pick one with your over all high score... option #1, #2 or #3 .."
> 
> They will send me their option number. Short sweet an to the point. I take all their answers into consideration along with mine and my husbands.
> 
> Will I blindly choose whatever the highest number of votes is? Nope. We actually ended up picking the option this last March, that had the least votes. It just helps me process in a weird way.
> 
> I already did the hard work by gathering all our possible options and weeding through them to narrow it down to just 3 houses. So at that point, either one was a good choice. But, I still wanted others logical input.


Hey y'all. Sorry to interrupt and keep it going. I assure you, I will not be asking for opinions any longer. 

But this a serious question (above). Please, if someone know the answer, let me know?

Thank you in advance. 

EDIT: I QUOTED THE WRONG ONE. THE QUESTION I BELOW IN THE COMMENTS


----------



## Deadly Decorum

I hate Shakespeare for many reasons.

1. I'm a pseudo intellectual and not as smart as everyone believes me to be. It's difficult for me to understand his text. There I said it. I must translate.
2. Mellow drama! Holy shit! Someone argued that "well, Romeo and Juliet were just teenagers, so of course it was puppy love". Nice way to lump teenagers together. I would have never faked a death to be with someone I eyed on a balcony on a party lustfully. And they died anyway due to their stupidity. It pained me. Most of his plays I read in High School pained me. The Tempest was enjoyable, though. I suppose I prefer his comedies over his tragedies (Hamlet was also mellowdramatic mush and I rolled my eyes at Ophelia's depiction despite the meaning of her portrayal).
3. ...He may not have even written his plays. It bugs me that they may be misattributed.

I will say... his sonnets are lovely. He did (if it weren't Francis Bacon *smirk*) have a way with words. I can understand his sonnets with ease, somehow. And they're beautiful. Romeo and Juliet though? Purple prose mush. I like tragic, morbid and macabre work (Poe <3) but I may as well have been reading a prototype for a lifetime movie.

The iambic pentameter is a skillful art; hard to master. I've tried... and failed.


----------



## Persephone Soul

sugarplum said:


> okay, i honestly feel dumb right now for even going here again lol.
> 
> I was thinking about the whole gathering consensus thing. It is most definitely my way of processing logical situations. I was thinking, wow. I do this a lot. I hardly ever agree with the consensus. Like hardly ever. But i do a lot of "polls" in my life. This reason right here, almost had me saying "yep, fe for shizz then".
> 
> But then, i got to thinking. .. Wait, but isn't that more of a ethical and morality thing? To gather consensus and poll others on values and fe things?
> 
> Wouldn't a te user do the same, but for logical things? That is what i use 'polling' for. Logical reasoning.
> 
> If someone can clear this up for me, and show me that no, (lower) te would not do this. It's only an fe thing, regardless if it's a ethical vs logical thing. Then, i will have no way to escape from a fe diagnosis lol. None. I "poll" and seek consensus a lot (usually just the main ppl in my life), but always about what's logical etc. Never on my values.
> 
> Hoopla? Angelcat? Does low te do this at all?
> 
> This question i feel will really fill in the large gap i have missing. This is the final piece i think.


oop! I meant to quote this comment, not the one i just quoted. Ack!


----------



## ElliCat

Bah double post


----------



## ElliCat

*Extraversion*
The trait of extraversion reflects the extent to which you direct your interest to things outside of yourself. Its two facets are called enthusiasm and assertiveness.
The facet of *enthusiasm* reflects the propensity to meet external objects and peope with positive emotion. Your score was *50*.
The facet of *assertiveness* reflects a propensity to be confident is meeting the world and seeking dominance in social situations. Your score was *23*.



alittlebear said:


> Relevant. I didn't learn how to ride a bike until I was nine, and it was one of the most emberassing things for me. Forget shoe tieing, lol. (Although the shoe thing was more lack of fine motor skills I think. I still struggle.)


Do your laces always come undone too? I'm so talented I can't even get a double-knot to stay, half the time. 



laurie17 said:


> Really? I can never understand the need to perform beautiful strokes - swimming is for survival. I mean, unless you were doing olympic swimming, maybe? Still, it seems very unnecessary to me.


Yeah she never really knows when to let go (it applies to a lot of things in her life). And she kind of lives through us kids and rates her own value as a mother based on how well her children perform, so she didn't really handle our failures very well. Even when she'd be comforting us, I got the impression it was mostly her comforting herself, because I didn't even care half the time and she'd _still_ be going on about it...



fair phantom said:


> I'm jealous of everyone who got to do ice skating in PE.


ME TOO. I never got to try it until my early 20's. And I haven't done it for years now. :dispirited:

@SugarPlum I don't know, what you just wrote sounds like Te, but beyond high Feeling and inferior Thinking I have no idea. Did you ever dissect inferior Te vs. inferior Ti? Or explain if your "introversion" is only a recent thing and could be attributed to being in the grip? I can't really give you any answers if you're not answering my questions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla You do know that Romeo and Juliet is a satire, right? A satire of teenage love, naivety. My high schoolteacher fresh out of college taught us that it was "the most beautiful love story of all time" (just like Twilight!). 

But... Yes. My Shakespeare professor whose life I think is Shakespeare told me he hasn't read R+J since high school. It was a very early play. Some think unsophisticated. I think there's more to it than that, but it's certainly not his best work. Unfortunately just the best known. 

The Tempest is lovely. Gorgeous. Just... perfect, in many ways. It's especially refreshing after dragging through all the tragedies, to come to a story where there was a lighter tone. That scene where the servant guy wins the Gollum guy over by getting him drunk and they begin to worship him. Oh my goodness. 

And hey, don't feel bad about struggling with the text. I was so excited to buy my Shakespeare copy last year with my Christmas money... only to find that I had no idea how to read it. LOL. I only can now I think because I was forced to read ten plays so quickly this past semester. You learn by necessity. I did.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> I hate Shakespeare for many reasons.
> 
> 1. I'm a pseudo intellectual and not as smart as everyone believes me to be. It's difficult for me to understand his text. There I said it. I must translate.
> 2. Mellow drama! Holy shit! Someone argued that "well, Romeo and Juliet were just teenagers, so of course it was puppy love". Nice way to lump teenagers together. I would have never faked a death to be with someone I eyed on a balcony on a party lustfully. And they died anyway due to their stupidity. It pained me. Most of his plays I read in High School pained me. The Tempest was enjoyable, though. I suppose I prefer his comedies over his tragedies (Hamlet was also mellowdramatic mush and I rolled my eyes at Ophelia's depiction despite the meaning of her portrayal).
> 3. ...He may not have even written his plays. It bugs me that they may be misattributed.
> 
> I will say... his sonnets are lovely. He did (if it weren't Francis Bacon *smirk*) have a way with words. I can understand his sonnets with ease, somehow. And they're beautiful. Romeo and Juliet though? Purple prose mush. I like tragic, morbid and macabre work (Poe <3) but I may as well have been reading a prototype for a lifetime movie.


OH DO NOT START WITH THE SHAKESPEARE DID NOT WRITE HIS PLAYS BS THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS.

I'm mostly kidding :love_heart:, but seriously, that classist nonsense drives me up the wall. Not saying _you_ are classist, but the origins of that rumour are, as is every argument i've heard for it.

I have a defense for R+J but I'm too tired to mount it now. But in short: the tragedy there is _the feud_. That is why they get married as they do and have that suicide scheme in the first place.

Well this lonely shakespeare fan is going to bed, try not to be too hard on the guy in my absence :friendly_wink:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Yes I think I have, ElliCat. I just did it throughout the last few pages. I am on my phone, so it is hard to keep up and quote properly. It won't let me tag either. 

Anyway, i have always been introverted in my opinion. I just had a more wild and hyper phase during parts of high school (prob to escape reality from a dysfunctional home). But in class, with no friends to act goofy around, I was like a mute tbh. I was always the observer on the sidelines as a child. Never just went right in. Highschool i opened up more, but with those who i was close to. I did like attention from guys. But just for self esteem reasons really. When I got the attention, i would then become uncomfortable. 

Te vs ti differences are throughout these last few pages


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Yes, I have to go to sleep as well. Or listen to music and look up GOT clips and watch more Tudors. Something like that. But regardless I should be going. Good night ~


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> @hoopla You do know that Romeo and Juliet is a satire, right? A satire of teenage love, naivety. My high schoolteacher fresh out of college taught us that it was "the most beautiful love story of all time" (just like Twilight!).
> 
> But... Yes. My Shakespeare professor whose life I think is Shakespeare told me he hasn't read R+J since high school. It was a very early play. Some think unsophisticated. I think there's more to it than that, but it's certainly not his best work. Unfortunately just the best known.
> 
> The Tempest is lovely. Gorgeous. Just... perfect, in many ways. It's especially refreshing after dragging through all the tragedies, to come to a story where there was a lighter tone. That scene where the servant guy wins the Gollum guy over by getting him drunk and they begin to worship him. Oh my goodness.
> 
> And hey, don't feel bad about struggling with the text. I was so excited to buy my Shakespeare copy last year with my Christmas money... only to find that I had no idea how to read it. LOL. I only can now I think because I was forced to read ten plays so quickly this past semester. You learn by necessity. I did.


I know it's satire. I know that's the point; they're 14 and stupid. It still irritated me regardless. 

I guess I don't hate Shakespeare as much as I do his more mellow dramatic work.

Yes; I think, if with effort, I could learn to master his text independently. We didn't focus on that so much in High School; we read translated work. I was just too infatuated with Emily Dickinson and Poe I guess. In fact I preferred Beowulf over Romeo and Juliet.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> OH DO NOT START WITH THE SHAKESPEARE DID NOT WRITE HIS PLAYS BS THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS.
> 
> I'm mostly kidding :love_heart:, but seriously, that classist nonsense drives me up the wall. Not saying you are classist, but the origins of that rumour are.
> 
> I have a defense for R+J but I'm too tired to mount it now. But in short: the tragedy there is _the feud_. That is why they get married as they do and have that suicide scheme in the first place.
> 
> Well this lonely shakespeare fan is going to bed, try not to be too hard on the guy in my absence :friendly_wink:


Explain later. I know I'm taking it literally and there is meaning beyond the drama. I never took Shakespeare very seriously, obviously. I would love to hear the classism arguments.

And I know the feud was the point, not the death, and the point was they got there due to the feud, and that the shallow puppy love was the whole point; a mockery of teen love... but I felt it could have been executed better.

To think my teachers believed I should have been an English major. What crack were they smoking?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Hoopla... angelcat. Please , could you answer the question I have above? You dont need to write out a lengthy answer. Just yes or no? Please? 

I am sounding so desperate at this point. I really dont mean to fester. I just really need that question answered. Taking me out of the equation. 

1) Is it strictly a Fe thing to take consensus, whether it be ethical or logical...?

2) Or is it both Te and Fe. Fe taking in what the majority says on ethics but Te takes in consensus on logics...?

1 or 2? Then I will leave you be lol.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> I only heard of it myself through TV Tropes. :wink: And honestly, I think it's a rather curt summation of the flaws of the naturally talented individual, so good at this one particular thing that they use it for everything. :laughing:


TV tropes always boosts my IQ. And it gives me new ways to analyze media 

Yes it struck me as caustic, sarcastic satire and not literal. Pointing out the fatal flaw. It still makes me cringe because it's so pertinent in society. Glad Maslow gave it awareness.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> Hoopla... angelcat. Please , could you answer the question I have above? You dont need to write out a lengthy answer. Just yes or no? Please?
> 
> I am sounding so desperate at this point. I really dont mean to fester. I just really need that question answered. Taking me out of the equation.
> 
> 1) Is it strictly a Fe thing to take consensus, whether it be ethical or logical...?
> 
> 2) Or is it both Te and Fe. Fe taking in what the majority says on ethics but Te takes in consensus on logics...?
> 
> 1 or 2? Then I will leave you be lol.


The latter.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> TV tropes always boosts my IQ. And it gives me new ways to analyze media
> 
> Yes it struck me as caustic, sarcastic satire and not literal. Pointing out the fatal flaw. It still makes me cringe because it's so pertinent in society. Glad Maslow gave it awareness.


Not a bad site, just drains your life away one page at a time :wink:

Yeah, it's a principle even used by myself, though not in such severity as the examples in fiction. :happy: If you like that kind of thing, you'll love some of the more famous deconstructions. :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hoopla... angelcat. Please , could you answer the question I have above? You dont need to write out a lengthy answer. Just yes or no? Please?
> 
> I am sounding so desperate at this point. I really dont mean to fester. I just really need that question answered. Taking me out of the equation.
> 
> 1) Is it strictly a Fe thing to take consensus, whether it be ethical or logical...?
> 
> 2) Or is it both Te and Fe. Fe taking in what the majority says on ethics but Te takes in consensus on logics...?
> 
> 1 or 2? Then I will leave you be lol.
> 
> 
> 
> The latter.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Goodnight.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

also going to bed, but anyone care to analyze functions of this half finished poem?


* *




The sweet sickness of your serenade
Pulled me in like arsenic lemonade
You dug deep like an industrial steel blade
Here out my cries; this is my renegade 

I'm unfaithful towards your forgiveness
Forsaken me sweet surrender
There's nothing holy about your folly
Forever forlorn in your fortress

Farewell my friend
The ends justify the means in the end




embarrassing and I dislike showing my musings but I am curious. It will be a nice surprise for tomorrow.


----------



## Darkbloom

SugarPlum said:


> Okay, I honestly feel dumb right now for even going here again lol.
> 
> I was thinking about the whole gathering consensus thing. It is most definitely my way of processing logical situations. I was thinking, wow. I do this a LOT. I hardly ever agree with the consensus. Like hardly ever. But I do a lot of "polls" in my life. This reason right here, almost had me saying "yep, Fe for shizz then".
> 
> But then, i got to thinking. .. wait, but isn't that more of a ethical and morality thing? To gather consensus and poll others on values and Fe things?
> 
> Wouldn't a Te user do the same, but for logical things? That is what i use 'polling' for. Logical reasoning.
> 
> If someone can clear this up for me, and show me that no, (lower) Te would not do this. It's only an Fe thing, regardless if it's a ethical vs logical thing. Then, I will have NO way to escape from a Fe diagnosis lol. None. I "poll" and seek consensus a lot (usually just the main ppl in my life), but always about what's logical etc. Never on my values.
> 
> hoopla? Angelcat? Does low Te do this at all?
> 
> This question I feel will really fill in the large gap i have missing. This is the final piece i think.


Lower Te does it too in my experience,more than Fe does.
Like,I do "polls" but mostly for the sake of converstation,like,I ask someone should I wear this or that or something third just so they see as much of my clothes as possible(even though I decided what I'll wear),things like that XD
Te seems to wanna be objective and move from themselves,in a way.And NFPs can be very indecisive,often get stuck in perfectionism and insignificant details too and polls help to a degree


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> also going to bed, but anyone care to analyze functions of this half finished poem?
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sweet sickness of your serenade
> Pulled me in like arsenic lemonade
> You dug deep like an industrial steel blade
> Here out my cries; this is my renegade
> 
> I'm unfaithful towards your forgiveness
> Forsaken me sweet surrender
> There's nothing holy about your folly
> Forever forlorn in your fortress
> 
> Farewell my friend
> The ends justify the means in the end
> 
> 
> 
> 
> embarrassing and I dislike showing my musings but I am curious. It will be a nice surprise for tomorrow.


I would guess ISFP.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Thank you, Ld. 

And yeah, I agree with oswin, hoopla. I see ISFP as well.


----------



## Darkbloom

I agree,ISFP


----------



## Dangerose

In other news, reading Was That Really Me all but convinced me I'm ENFJ. Inferior Ti for sure.
There was one bit, about INFJs, that said, " INFJs are especially sensitive to unexpressed anger and conflict, whose presence is usually denied by others. This contributes to the sense of separateness from others that many Introverted Intuitive types report, which may lead them to doubt their own mental stability."

Is this a purely Ni thing or would Fe do this on it's own as well? Because this is my whole life, "I know that there's some serious tension in this household and it's putting me on edge but if I say anything people are just going to think I'm crazy". I would think that Fe by itself would be enough to have this problem, since Fe picks up on the vibes from other people...or? Fe-Si users, tell your experiences. Fe-Ni users, tell your experiences too. Everyone is allowed to tell their experiences in fact.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> In other news, reading Was That Really Me all but convinced me I'm ENFJ. Inferior Ti for sure.
> There was one bit, about INFJs, that said, " INFJs are especially sensitive to unexpressed anger and conflict, whose presence is usually denied by others. This contributes to the sense of separateness from others that many Introverted Intuitive types report, which may lead them to doubt their own mental stability."
> 
> Is this a purely Ni thing or would Fe do this on it's own as well? Because this is my whole life, "I know that there's some serious tension in this household and it's putting me on edge but if I say anything people are just going to think I'm crazy". I would think that Fe by itself would be enough to have this problem, since Fe picks up on the vibes from other people...or? Fe-Si users, tell your experiences. Fe-Ni users, tell your experiences too. Everyone is allowed to tell their experiences in fact.


you're reading it too?! See , didn't inferior Ti stick out like a sore thumb, and seem way more specific then the way it is usually described?!


----------



## Persephone Soul

The whole section sounded like me. But then again, so did inferior Te (what did you think about that one?). And inferior Ne lol (but i think it may be my GAD and E6).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> In other news, reading Was That Really Me all but convinced me I'm ENFJ. Inferior Ti for sure.
> There was one bit, about INFJs, that said, " INFJs are especially sensitive to unexpressed anger and conflict, whose presence is usually denied by others. This contributes to the sense of separateness from others that many Introverted Intuitive types report, which may lead them to doubt their own mental stability."
> 
> Is this a purely Ni thing or would Fe do this on it's own as well? Because this is my whole life, "I know that there's some serious tension in this household and it's putting me on edge but if I say anything people are just going to think I'm crazy". I would think that Fe by itself would be enough to have this problem, since Fe picks up on the vibes from other people...or? Fe-Si users, tell your experiences. Fe-Ni users, tell your experiences too. Everyone is allowed to tell their experiences in fact.


Of course I was supposed to sleep, really just continued reading. Gah. 

I've always done that as well, but it seems like a very Fe thing. Not particularly Ni, but I wouldn't know. ^^


----------



## Immolate

Just my luck to miss @_hoopla_. I was sleeping away a headache (and now I probably won't sleep a wink until morning) :ssad:

But there's a poem!


@_Oswin_ why not ESFJ?

[Edit] @hoopla, I'm not sure about ISFP. I'm guessing the Fi is for the cold bluntness of the poem, and the Se is for the imagery, particularly the blade. The Ni is for the figurative language you've got going on. I can't comment on inferior Te. I suppose the typing makes sense. I'll come back to it in the morning. Also, the arsenic lemonade is going to stick with me. Bittersweet poison (or outright death) :teapot:


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Of course I was supposed to sleep, really just continued reading. Gah.
> 
> I've always done that as well, but it seems like a very Fe thing. Not particularly Ni, but I wouldn't know. ^^


Haha I also didn't manage to sleep.

I think I do this? At least I think I pick up on it. May be a survival strategy with me though. Probably not to the same degree as Fe-users (or high-Fe users. Idk)

@hoopla ISFP

@SugarPlum the fact that your surveying is more of a logical thing is making me more inclined to INFP for you, again (sorry. I know that probably isn't helpful!). You do seem to resist opinions that you don't agree with quite strongly.


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> In other news, reading Was That Really Me all but convinced me I'm ENFJ. Inferior Ti for sure.
> There was one bit, about INFJs, that said, " INFJs are especially sensitive to unexpressed anger and conflict, whose presence is usually denied by others. This contributes to the sense of separateness from others that many Introverted Intuitive types report, which may lead them to doubt their own mental stability."
> 
> Is this a purely Ni thing or would Fe do this on it's own as well? Because this is my whole life, "I know that there's some serious tension in this household and it's putting me on edge but if I say anything people are just going to think I'm crazy". I would think that Fe by itself would be enough to have this problem, since Fe picks up on the vibes from other people...or? Fe-Si users, tell your experiences. Fe-Ni users, tell your experiences too. Everyone is allowed to tell their experiences in fact.


Hmm,I just tend to explode conflicts,like,basically make it happen if it has to happen.Why would anyone think I'm crazy,they'll know I'm right.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Lol, "theres a poem!" 

And okay, so evidently I didnt read all of Ne. Whoa. I didn't even get half through it. Reading now.

Ps, i just tried to think of anything i do that is very Feish. I do. I hush up my my kids in public. Might just be a mom thing, or Te or whatever. But it ISSSS based on being polite and respectful to others. Like, i am very strict on political correctness with them. 

EDIT: eg. "STOP that. Thats inappropriate.... be polite. ... ". My husband and I have a tendency to let others know (quietly) that they have autism so they dont get so upset. My husband does it more than me though. I just do it in specific situations where I feel it is necessary and it will make a difference. If my kids are just being plain rude, I will not make excuses for them. I lay down the law.

BOOM. Fe! (I think)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Hah! Aw crap. I didn't see your comment til after I posted that last one, phantom. 

I wasn't arguing with you! Lol

Thank you for your input.


----------



## fair phantom

Yeah so this book I'm reading says that learning to read others, their motives, emotions etc is an asset for survival.

So if it is true that only Fe people can do that it then... :hopelessness:

@SugarPlum lol no worries I didn't think you were.


----------



## Immolate

@fair phantom I think I remember you mentioning Margaret Atwood's poetry? I don't usually check out poetry, but I like Margaret Atwood. I read this poem about a year ago and it stayed with me. Type? Anyone is free to join in :smilet-digitalpoint


* *




*Against Still Life*

Orange in the middle of a table:

It isn't enough
to walk around it
at a distance, saying
it's an orange:
nothing to do
with us, nothing
else: leave it alone

I want to pick it up
in my hand
I want to peel the
skin off; I want
more to be said to me
than just Orange:
want to be told
everything it has to say
And you, sitting across
the table, at a distance, with
your smile contained, and like the orange
in the sun: silent:

Your silence
isn't enough for me
now, no matter with what
contentment you fold
your hands together; I want
anything you can say
in the sunlight:
stories of your various
childhoods, aimless journeyings,
your loves; your articulate
skeleton; your posturings; your lies.

These orange silences
(sunlight and hidden smile)
make me want to
wrench you into saying;
now I'd crack your skull
like a walnut, split it like a pumpkin
to make you talk, or get
a look inside

But quietly:
if I take the orange
with care enough and hold it
gently

I may find
an egg
a sun
an orange moon
perhaps a skull; center
of all energy
resting in my hand

can change it to
whatever I desire
it to be

and you, man, orange afternoon
lover, wherever
you sit across from me
(tables, trains, buses)

if I watch
quietly enough
and long enough

at last, you will say
(maybe without speaking)

(there are mountains
inside your skull
garden and chaos, ocean
and hurricane; certain
corners of rooms, portraits
of great grandmothers, curtains
of a particular shade;
your deserts; your private
dinosaurs; the first
woman)

all I need to know
tell me
everything
just as it was
from the beginning.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Just my luck to miss @_hoopla_. I was sleeping away a headache (and now I probably won't sleep a wink until morning) :ssad:
> 
> But there's a poem!
> 
> 
> @_Oswin_ why not ESFJ?
> 
> [Edit] @hoopla, I'm not sure about ISFP. I'm guessing the Fi is for the cold bluntness of the poem, and the Se is for the imagery, particularly the blade. The Ni is for the figurative language you've got going on. I can't comment on inferior Te. I suppose the typing makes sense. I'll come back to it in the morning. Also, the arsenic lemonade is going to stick with me. Bittersweet poison (or outright death) :teapot:


Well...I'm still wanting opinions about that) Feel free to argue your case)
I think I was relating more to Se than I've previously been admitting (it's really not my favorite function but it's also really cool in other people at least) Actually, the description of inferior Se in the book was a bit like me, although I don't have the 'overstimulation' problem (seriously, I have no idea what that means)
And...yeah, I haven't decided fully. I think if I'm an ESFJ I'm fairly unhealthy? And if I'm ENFJ...I'm better? I don't know.

Feel free to ask me questions to try to determine this once and for all.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Yeah so this book I'm reading says that learning to read others, their motives, emotions etc is an asset for survival.
> 
> So if it is true that only Fe people can do that it then... :hopelessness:
> 
> @SugarPlum lol no worries I didn't think you were.


The book I'm reading says that love is an illusion. I love this crap. 

Just thought a few minutes ago - or was it an hour now? - about how sucky it is to be an Fe person trying to run for student government. I would say "I am here to help the student body" over and over again. That would be my strategy. That's all I have. I want to help that everyone uses that as their primary motive, even/especially if they don't mean it. My words would mean nothing. Maybe I could pull off well in a speech, but apart from that... I mean, yes, an ESTJ could easily feel the same way about wanting to help the people, but they would also probably have a logical idea of what they wanted to accomplish and a resume of what they've already accomplished. I don't have that. All I have is my good intentions and love for people DX poor me


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@shinynotshiny read the poem. Wow. That's something. I think I like it as well.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> The whole section sounded like me. But then again, so did inferior Te (what did you think about that one?). And inferior Ne lol (but i think it may be my GAD and E6).


Inferior Te...maybe a little, just in the being critical, but not quite so much.
Inferior Ti was me on a platter. I'm going to lend this book to my mother and I am willing to bet money that she'll read that section and come tell me how it explains me)))


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> False.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously we're different manifestations of the same entity through space-time.
> 
> 
> something like that












Oooh that makes sense.



fair phantom said:


> I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "static" personal ethics and "stable" interpersonal bonds. Can anyone help me out here?


Fi descriptions? I'm assuming sure of relationship without needed to constantly voice it? Clear friend/fox/family distinguishment? 



> @fair phantom That new avatar looks suspiciously like Waterhouse. You are now a confirmed INFP.


It's an artist? I'm assuming it's Pandora. I thought "destructive curiosity" mainly.
@Blue Flare thanks!


----------



## orbit

I'm getting the general vibe that Fi is a secluded function that likes to have its user's emotions hidden and appear cold and awkward? I'm assuming this is incorrect because I tend to smile a lot and I have Fi and people get the impression I'm bubbly, albeit a bit snarky and harsh. I don't know how that can work but that's what people tell me.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I'm getting the general vibe that Fi is a secluded function that likes to have its user's emotions hidden and appear cold and awkward? I'm assuming this is incorrect because I tend to smile a lot and I have Fi and people get the impression I'm bubbly, albeit a bit snarky and harsh. I don't know how that can work but that's what people tell me.


Speaking only for myself, yes to secluded function wanting to hide emotions, no to wanting to appear cold and awkward (keyword "wanting").


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> I'm getting the general vibe that Fi is a secluded function that likes to have its user's emotions hidden and appear cold and awkward? I'm assuming this is incorrect because I tend to smile a lot and I have Fi and people get the impression I'm bubbly, albeit a bit snarky and harsh. I don't know how that can work but that's what people tell me.


To be honest, I think that is exaggerated, at least with high Fi. And I think one of the things Fi-users are supposed to learn in life is to communicate emotions better? (I think this applies to introverted functions in general).

@shinynotshiny I'm not fooled by the IXTJ front (not just re:you. I feel like half of my tumblr mutuals are INTJ). :fox:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ I'm not fooled by the IXTJ front (not just re:you. I feel like half of my tumblr mutuals are INTJ). :fox:


:gentleman:


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Speaking only for myself, yes to secluded function wanting to hide emotions, no to wanting to appear cold and awkward (keyword "wanting").


Hm. Darn. I don't try to hide my emotions really. I consider most my day to day emotions shallow and I don't mind telling people I'm feeling something. 

And I didn't mean to imply that Fi wants to appear cold and awkward >< I meant the second clause to be totally independent of the first "like"


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Hm. Darn. I don't try to hide my emotions really. I consider most my day to day emotions shallow and I don't mind telling people I'm feeling something.
> 
> And I didn't mean to imply that Fi wants to appear cold and awkward >< I meant the second clause to be totally independent of the first "like"


Have you ever observed Fi dom and Fe dom interacting with people in public? Difference is jarring. Fe doms are -in- the situation. From my Fe dom mother's perceptive my INFP friend is _extremely_ reserved. I don't find her so but maybe because she lets it go with me. With strangers she has a tendency to close off and speak in polite monotone.

P.S. from my xp ISxPs are "most extroverted introverts". My ISFP friend was originally my INFP's friend. Later always complained how ISFP seems way more extroverted than her.


----------



## Persephone Soul

For all you gamers...
Watch "YouTube Live at E3 - Complete Coverage All Day [L?" on YouTube
YouTube Live at E3 - Complete Coverage All Day [L?: http://youtu.be/aBM5nzJ5Bws


----------



## ElliCat

fair phantom said:


> I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "static" personal ethics and "stable" interpersonal bonds. Can anyone help me out here?


Sounds like Socionics jargon. Do we have any experts lurking?



> It's an artist? I'm assuming it's Pandora. I thought "destructive curiosity" mainly.


Yeah it'd have to be Pandora. Waterhouse is a Pre-Raphaelite artist, and his paintings are like, the INFP spirit animal. 



Curiphant said:


> I'm getting the general vibe that Fi is a secluded function that likes to have its user's emotions hidden and appear cold and awkward? I'm assuming this is incorrect because I tend to smile a lot and I have Fi and people get the impression I'm bubbly, albeit a bit snarky and harsh. I don't know how that can work but that's what people tell me.


Well Fi can't be cold in and of itself, seeing as ExFP's are stereotyped as bubbly and friendly and outgoing...

I do like to keep things to myself but I don't try to be cold and awkward. It just happens. But then sometimes people say I'm really warm and not at all awkward, so who knows how I really come across?


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> For all you gamers...
> Watch "YouTube Live at E3 - Complete Coverage All Day [L?" on YouTube
> YouTube Live at E3 - Complete Coverage All Day [L?: http://youtu.be/aBM5nzJ5Bws


Heh love Lego games.

I prefer reading summary of E3 later. 

I'm mostly expecting this sort out of major publishers. 





Replace "TV" with "next gen" and "online features".


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> Yeah I.... I think I'm still borderline. It's like, "define _clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning_..."


It is hard to figure out. The problem with me: I was smart enough and passionate enough about learning to keep getting by. I would never have figured it out if a friend hadn't suggested it to me. He was in a similar situation...easy As in school until college. I held on longer than he did, mostly by _only_ taking classes that I was very interested in (interest doesn't cause the same strain of willed focus). But everything completely fell apart my senior year as I tried to juggle classes and my thesis. I spent almost my entire day doing schoolwork (even reading through meals and restricting sleep) but I was barely making progress and I kept making mistakes like looking right at the syllabus and not seeing an assignment X_X. I was about to flunk one of my classes and not doing so well in others due to stupid mistakes and my teachers knew that this was NOT me. I wound up having to go on medical leave. I have meds now and I still have Ne-ness, but I can actually function. 



> @fair phantom That new avatar looks suspiciously like Waterhouse. You are now a confirmed INFP.


Yep it is Waterhouse. I love the Pre-Raphaelites. SO INFP, right? :rolling:



Greyhart said:


> Fi descriptions? I'm assuming sure of relationship without needed to constantly voice it? Clear friend/fox/family distinguishment?


Yeah. Socionics. That makes sense. I guess I just found the idea of relationships that never change as odd. I mean I still care about people I haven't talked to in a decade because they were once my friends, but I am definitely aware of the shifts in relationships...sometimes subtle, sometimes great.

I also don't understand how ethics can really be "static". I mean aside from big general themes. In the particulars I think they need constant interrogation and testing. Perhaps I'm being too literal. But I think I relate better to socionics Fi as the creative function



> The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function. The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.





> It's an artist? I'm assuming it's Pandora. I thought "destructive curiosity" mainly.


It's actually "Psyche Opening the Golden Box" by Waterhouse. However, I was going for "destructive curiousity". :star:


----------



## fair phantom

Greyhart said:


> Have you ever observed Fi dom and Fe dom interacting with people in public? Difference is jarring. Fe doms are -in- the situation. From my Fe dom mother's perceptive my INFP friend is _extremely_ reserved. I don't find her so but maybe because she lets it go with me. With strangers she has a tendency to close off and speak in polite monotone.
> 
> P.S. from my xp ISxPs are "most extroverted introverts". My ISFP friend was originally my INFP's friend. Later always complained how ISFP seems way more extroverted than her.


Lord, I feel like I can do okay among introverts or Ne-dom extroverts, but when I come across an ESFJ in real life I usually wind up feeling like the quietest most awkward person ever.

My guy's dad is an ISTP and I was convinced he was an extrovert for awhile. Nope.


----------



## originalsin

So like, Ni is what happens when you see a bigger part of the picture or come to realizations that you can't really put into words, right? Cause that shit happens to be me all the time. Like I can't really verbalize my world view without taking long time to think about it. 

But at the same time, my bullshit meter goes off the most when arguments don't fully support their conclusions. Like, my main point of attack is usually how premises don't support their conclusions, rather than the accuracy of premises themselves. That's Ti, right? Or is it Te, since that method tends to be more time efficient than having to check their sources and fact check? 

Idk, I'm confused.


----------



## Greyhart

ElliCat said:


> Yeah it'd have to be Pandora. Waterhouse is a Pre-Raphaelite artist, and his paintings are like, the INFP spirit animal.


Beautiful style. They actually look alive. 

Speaking of art

* *















Women Rejecting Marriage Proposals In Western Art History


----------



## Greyhart

originalsin said:


> So like, Ni is what happens when you see a bigger part of the picture or come to realizations that you can't really put into words, right? Cause that shit happens to be me all the time. Like I can't really verbalize my world view without taking long time to think about it.
> 
> But at the same time, my bullshit meter goes off the most when arguments don't fully support their conclusions. Like, my main point of attack is usually how premises don't support their conclusions, rather than the accuracy of premises themselves. That's Ti, right? Or is it Te, since that method tends to be more time efficient than having to check their sources and fact check?
> 
> Idk, I'm confused.


Ne vs Ni
Self-sustaining chemical system ðŸ’• - Ni vs Ne
Ti-Ne vs. Ni - Funky MBTI in Fiction

Ti 1 2 3 4 (Ti describing an image) 5 (and all the way down)

Te
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...mation-rejection-wanted-730.html#post18307458
This guy talks Te dom

According to sociouncs IxTJs and their Te

* *




This person very skillfully uses knowledge and facts, applies them creatively, an ideal lecturer, excels at giving instructions (he can, for example, teach skills needed for auto-maintenance). He can creatively and originally manipulate external objects that require hands-on work, assembly and disassembly. Many people of this type, as children loved construction toys. Fixing complicated household items is their favorite hobby, as this, after all, requires active application of objective logic. If such opportunities are not present, he may even deliberately break or deconstruct something and then proceed to fix it. At times, they may use an object not for the purpose that it was intended (e.g. using a microscope to drive nails). Such people are ideal as specialists for modernizing or upgrading anything, especially in the physical sense, as such a person has a keen eye for trends and laws of the objective world and knows how to isolate them and use them well. Sometimes he will move to a place where objective knowledge is scarce, somewhere far from civilization, where he will have a chance to demonstrate his knowledge and skill. He is well versed in the current laws and order, their advantages and disadvantages, and skillfully maneuvers within them. If he is stuck in traffic, he might plot a very original route using roadsides and sidewalks, and feels like a duck in water in this activity. Capable of holding a multitude of facts of the objective world and putting them to use. A very practical person, able to improve and modernize anything in surrounding territory, as to make it better and higher quality, "a jack of all trades." Such people have a set of rules for themselves, but they are very flexible - some of them can be gleaned over, some of them can be substituted - there is a somewhat manipulative view of these. He might follow one rule in the morning, but in the evening follow a very different rule, simply because the situation has changed. Because of this, it is very difficult to negotiate (do business) with him. If there is a contract, he may at some point cancel it, simply because it is no longer favorable for him. That is, he views rules as something that can be changed at any time upon request of the parties involved. Because of this, it is often difficult to deal with such people in a business capacity, as in the business sphere a contract is a contract, it is not subject to revision every day or week. But here, dealing with him, it must be a contract without penalties in the event of dissolution. It must be established beforehand that it is something impermanent - a temporary solution adopted for some short period of time.




Fi 1 2 3

Ne 1 2 3 4 5 6


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Have you ever observed Fi dom and Fe dom interacting with people in public? Difference is jarring. Fe doms are -in- the situation. From my Fe dom mother's perceptive my INFP friend is _extremely_ reserved. I don't find her so but maybe because she lets it go with me. With strangers she has a tendency to close off and speak in polite monotone.
> 
> P.S. from my xp ISxPs are "most extroverted introverts". My ISFP friend was originally my INFP's friend. Later always complained how ISFP seems way more extroverted than her.


Hm maybe then I'm ESFP. But then that opens a larger can of issues I have with that typing. I don't relate to the idea of Se-dom but I might be misunderstanding it >< People tire me out and I need space. But I do relate to Fi quite a bit, just not with this whole reservation thing with expression. One of the reasons I thought I was Fe was because somewhere it said that Fe believes people should be open and honest with the emotions and I agreed with that. By the way, I don't agree with the implication that Fi users are liars with their emotions. 

Ambivert? That's a weird idea for me. 
I do speak a monotone voice, especially when I'm around friends-not-friends acquaintances. Not strangers though.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Hm maybe then I'm ESFP. But then that opens a larger can of issues I have with that typing. I don't relate to the idea of Se-dom but I might be misunderstanding it >< People tire me out and I need space. But I do relate to Fi quite a bit, just not with this whole reservation thing with expression. One of the reasons I thought I was Fe was because somewhere it said that Fe believes people should be open and honest with the emotions and I agreed with that. By the way, I don't agree with the implication that Fi users are liars with their emotions.
> 
> Ambivert? That's a weird idea for me.
> I do speak a monotone voice, especially when I'm around friends-not-friends acquaintances. Not strangers though.


Well... TBH "reservation" is subjective. To me my IxFP friends are expressive enough. To Fe doms they seem still. I wasn't aware of how expressive I am until I saw my video. My ESFJ mother and ENFJ friend are expressiveness overload (especially with ENFJ, that one has arms like a windmill).


----------



## ElliCat

fair phantom said:


> It is hard to figure out. The problem with me: I was smart enough and passionate enough about learning to keep getting by. I would never have figured it out if a friend hadn't suggested it to me. He was in a similar situation...easy As in school until college. I held on longer than he did, mostly by _only_ taking classes that I was very interested in (interest doesn't cause the same strain of willed focus). But everything completely fell apart my senior year as I tried to juggle classes and my thesis. I spent almost my entire day doing schoolwork (even reading through meals and restricting sleep) but I was barely making progress and I kept making mistakes like looking right at the syllabus and not seeing an assignment X_X. I was about to flunk one of my classes and not doing so well in others due to stupid mistakes and my teachers knew that this was NOT me. I wound up having to go on medical leave. I have meds now and I still have Ne-ness, but I can actually function.


Wow, that's intense! I'm glad you figured it out, because it sound like the meds are doing a lot of good.

I don't have anything that bad, but it's just these little things that add up, you know? Especially getting distracted and forgetting about stuff, as well as difficulties concentrating and retaining information I've just read/been told. And the job-hopping is bad but half of that is life circumstances/being fired rather than getting bored. Although I do get bored.

Meh. 



> Yep it is Waterhouse. I love the Pre-Raphaelites. SO INFP, right? :rolling:


THAT'S IT YOU CAN'T BE AN INTP IT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE TO BE TI AND LIKE WATERHOUSE THIS IS A FI ONLY CLUB

... but srsly now I'm getting our avatars confused. I don't know how I feel about this. I've never had an identical twin before.




> Yeah. Socionics. That makes sense. I guess I just found the idea of relationships that never change as odd. I mean I still care about people I haven't talked to in a decade because they were once my friends, but I am definitely aware of the shifts in relationships...sometimes subtle, sometimes great.
> 
> I also don't understand how ethics can really be "static". I mean aside from big general themes. In the particulars I think they need constant interrogation and testing. Perhaps I'm being too literal. But I think I relate better to socionics Fi as the creative function


I don't know that I relate to it as the creative function (I'm seriously wondering if you're ENFp-Fi) but I relate to the rest. 

UGH SOCIONICS YOU CONFUSE ME



Greyhart said:


> Beautiful style. They actually look alive.


NO YOU USE TI YOU CAN'T LIKE IT GET OUT 



> Women Rejecting Marriage Proposals In Western Art History


Ummm hi so I love The Toast and I especially love their Western Art History stuff and if you're not careful I'm going to fly over and give you my own shitty proposal for you to reject


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> Sounds like Socionics jargon. Do we have any experts lurking?
> 
> 
> Yeah it'd have to be Pandora. Waterhouse is a Pre-Raphaelite artist, and his paintings are like, the INFP spirit animal.
> 
> 
> Well Fi can't be cold in and of itself, seeing as ExFP's are stereotyped as bubbly and friendly and outgoing...
> 
> I do like to keep things to myself but I don't try to be cold and awkward. It just happens. But then sometimes people say I'm really warm and not at all awkward, so who knows how I really come across?


What do you mean keep things to yourself? I feel like I might just keep things to myself but just assume that's a natural thing to do? Might.


----------



## ElliCat

Curiphant said:


> Hm maybe then I'm ESFP. But then that opens a larger can of issues I have with that typing. I don't relate to the idea of Se-dom but I might be misunderstanding it >< People tire me out and I need space. But I do relate to Fi quite a bit, just not with this whole reservation thing with expression. One of the reasons I thought I was Fe was because somewhere it said that Fe believes people should be open and honest with the emotions and I agreed with that. By the way, I don't agree with the implication that Fi users are liars with their emotions.
> 
> Ambivert? That's a weird idea for me.
> I do speak a monotone voice, especially when I'm around friends-not-friends acquaintances. Not strangers though.


I'm going to try to do a video on Thursday and this might be a good topic to get me ranting about something. Please remind me to reply to this, especially if the video ends up not working out! Hopefully I'll be able to clear my thoughts up over the next couple of days so I'm not umming and aahhhing on camera!


----------



## Greyhart

Hmm I wouldn't mind being ITP. Maybe I'd be less prone to just grabbing into everything I came across. TBH I'd trade Ne for Se more likely.  Pe is great...

Hah, my extroversion definition is not-people focused.


----------



## Ninjaws

This thread should be renamed "The Lounge", since that's basically what it is. ^^


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Depends on "conventional" extroversion definition, I suppose. I would associate extroversion with engagement in situation. I see it in Fe Se and Te doms. I'm the only Ne dom I know so I'm not sure how I seem from outside perspective. So the Se is most associated with "engagement with content" thus ISPs seem far more extroverted than any other introverts.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've seen literally everyone type him as ENFP. I've looked through a few videos with his interviews and I don't seem to be able to put Ne-Te there. :S
> 
> 
> Clearly show your emotional reactions though mimics and body language.


Showing emotional reactions through mimics and body language? I am terrible at that =/ I'll say how [negative emotion] I am with a big grin and I'll make people laugh about terrible things because of my face. People can't tell if I'm serious or not because I don't change the tone of my voice. 


Hm. Thank you


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Hmm I wouldn't mind being ITP. Maybe I'd be less prone to just grabbing into everything I came across. TBH I'd trade Ne for Se more likely.  Pe is great...
> 
> Hah, my extroversion definition is not-people focused.


I think I would begin to lose the will to live if I started really overthinking/overanaylzing shit. And yeah, I would happily trade Ti for Te xD And be a super unbalanced ESTP. Jk. Se-Ti is alright, engaged.

Actually, being an ENTJ would be cool. One with developed Se. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## orbit

Ninjaws said:


> This thread should be renamed "The Lounge", since that's basically what it is. ^^


Ah whatever. 

But it's too bad that can't rename the thread because of the twenty-four hour rule


----------



## Ninjaws

Curiphant said:


> Probably not what you were picturing but somehow when I think of this thread I picture a giant sea with us floating around.
> 
> Actually I just picture water when I think of lounge in general. Or brown.


Your art is quite something. ^^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I've been trying to be productive today, but decided to pop in ~


hoopla said:


> @alittlebear You are so eloquent. Beautiful. Unfortunately off to the races so no time to currently analyze?


I think you probably tagged the wrong person here Hoopla. And if you did not tag the wrong person I do wonder what this was in regards to? (I apologize for being oblivious.)


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I think I would begin to lose the will to live if I started really overthinking/overanaylzing shit. And yeah, I would happily trade Ti for Te xD And be a super unbalanced ESTP. Jk. Se-Ti is alright, engaged.
> 
> Actually, being an ENTJ would be cool. One with developed Se.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


Not sure if I'd associate over-thinking with strictly Ti preference. Pretty sure I qualify for over-thinking about my health and relationships with others.



Curiphant said:


> Showing emotional reactions through mimics and body language? I am terrible at that =/ I'll say how [negative emotion] I am with a big grin and I'll make people laugh about terrible things because of my face. People can't tell if I'm serious or not because I don't change the tone of my voice.
> 
> Hm. Thank you


These people are me. I often find out I've offended someone post factum.

_________________






That's it people. Not liking to travel and jump out of planes is a mutation.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Living dead said:


> I don't get it,Fe doms are from my experience very secretive,in a way
> Yes,dramatic and open often but not exactly completely honest,secret-free or sharing everything
> Fi is much more "Screw it,I don't care what people think or do if they find out X"


I feel this too. I may seem to give away a lot, but there's still so much that I do not share. Especially in public conversation. I will share what is socially desired, but I'm still not sharing anything that's near my center unless it's late at night and I've had two or three bags of popcorn.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also is it just me or has @ElliCat been discovering the powers of the CAPS lately


----------



## owlet

Sorry for the late replies, I was out for a while and made biscuits (not while out).



Greyhart said:


> Back when I was a kid winters actually had snow that turned into almost ice after a while. So I skated kind of around the city. Haven't seen winter that would make that kind of roads in years.


That sounds so nice! I really wish I could have seen it. Snow is one of my favourite weather conditions :ghost: There was snow for a while when I was very young, but I only have photos and don't really remember it (my sister, mum and I all made a really cool snowman though). The most recent snow must have been four or five years ago, when me and my friends made 'Snow Fort #1'. It began life as a snow dragon and quickly transformed into an impenetrable fortress (that I almost got hypothermia in).




ElliCat said:


> Yeah she never really knows when to let go (it applies to a lot of things in her life). And she kind of lives through us kids and rates her own value as a mother based on how well her children perform, so she didn't really handle our failures very well. Even when she'd be comforting us, I got the impression it was mostly her comforting herself, because I didn't even care half the time and she'd _still_ be going on about it...


Ah, my friend's mum does a similar thing (her and her sisters get all competitive about their children's grades). It's really weird for me because if you're not the one achieving and understanding/learning skills, what's the point? It's nice to see people you love do well, but it has no bearing on your own being.
@SugarPlum I personally think you use Fe with some unusually strong Ne, so ESFJ would make sense. I see more Si than Ne in you, but I can't quite pinpoint why...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh and @Oswin regarding your type, I really don't know. As I explained to Curi, it's especially difficult for me to type people who I have come to know. The types are boxes where individuals go within this system, but my problem is that I see your own unique boxes and it is difficult for me to essentially cram who you are into the best box for you. In terms of houses I am already lost in your interior, unable to say what type of frame holds the structure up. 

I know that's a really lame excuse... but really I think that's how it is for me. You are lace and a smile and a purple flower, and of course other things I can never ever truly fathom, but I cannot give you a good idea what type that is. F?  

Given that @Amaterasu and @angelcat both typed you as ENFJ, though, I suppose I would be inclined to believe that's your type ^^


----------



## orbit

Ninjaws said:


> Your art is quite something. ^^












I prefer diagrams pst (since it's made out of figures 8D). Art requires actual effort.


----------



## orbit

How can I double post


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Oh and @_Oswin_ regarding your type, I really don't know. As I explained to Curi, it's especially difficult for me to type people who I have come to know. The types are boxes where individuals go within this system, but my problem is that I see your own unique boxes and it is difficult for me to essentially cram who you are into the best box for you. In terms of houses I am already lost in your interior, unable to say what type of frame holds the structure up.
> 
> I know that's a really lame excuse... but really I think that's how it is for me. *You are lace and a smile and a purple flower*, and of course other things I can never ever truly fathom, but I cannot give you a good idea what type that is. F?
> 
> Given that @_Amaterasu_ and @_angelcat_ both typed you as ENFJ, though, I suppose I would be inclined to believe that's your type ^^


I think you should come up with your own typing system using these kinds of descriptors. They're pretty.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> I think you should come up with your own typing system using these kinds of descriptors. They're pretty.


Thank you?
 I thought about that as a brief joke of an idea, making a topic where I could tell people what I saw in them. But... It's not quite a typing system. There is no structure. It's just what I see in people, I guess. It comes. 

Like I see Curi as one of those yellow clip art guys. She can't stand it. She doesn't understand it. But honestly, like, how is this not her? 








(As for you, Laurie, I would have to give that some thought. Your avatar is already so abstract at the moment and I can't let it get in the way of what you are  )


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> I think you should come up with your own typing system using these kinds of descriptors. They're pretty.


Apparently I'm bubbles with plastic but not plastic and fluff. I sound polluted! D8

Oh and I'm that yellow dude. And I can stand it. 

thisisanexaggerationandsimplicationandI'mnotoffendedatall


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Apparently I'm bubbles with plastic but not plastic and fluff. I sound polluted! D8
> 
> Oh and I'm that yellow dude. And I can stand it.
> 
> thisisanexaggerationandsimplicationandI'mnotoffendedatall


You should make him your avatar because he is you  

Or she. Xim. I guess the yellow dude doesn't really have a gender xey're just yellow and you.


----------



## Ninjaws

I am proud to present, The Lounge.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curi actually got me into colors, years ago. She always saw people and things in colors, it seemed. She still can do it, describe people in colors, I think? I got interested in it and used the Color System in one of my stories (that never got written). Now I've forgotten the associations with the colors I directly made, but the color connotations are just there for me now? I can see them too I think. Purple is... glass, sophistication to some extent, the true mystery. Red is bold, but also secretive. Stubbing in a quiet but loud way, given the way it is. Blue is... I want to say blue is love because _I'm_ blue, but blue is sometimes superficial, sometimes deep. Many things, almost a mystery but more because it is changing and massive than because it is unexplainable. 

(Of course these are not the solid meanings. It depends on the shade, the presentation, the context. But that's an idea I guess of some colors and their overt attributes.) (According to me. Curi has a different idea of what they mean, I think.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Ninjaws said:


> I am proud to present, The Lounge.
> View attachment 344098


I like it! Nice style.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> Thank you?
> I thought about that as a brief joke of an idea, making a topic where I could tell people what I saw in them. But... It's not quite a typing system. There is no structure. It's just what I see in people, I guess. It comes.
> 
> Like I see Curi as one of those yellow clip art guys. She can't stand it. She doesn't understand it. But honestly, like, how is this not her?
> View attachment 344090
> 
> 
> (As for you, Laurie, I would have to give that some thought. Your avatar is already so abstract at the moment and I can't let it get in the way of what you are  )


(I think Curiphant is actually that image sat before a computer, or maybe she is clip art itself and those are her physical form?)

I think you should! It would be interesting to see. Maybe if you're uncomfortable running it, you could make it into a game?

(Also, I am The Abstract :ghost




Curiphant said:


> Apparently I'm bubbles with plastic but not plastic and fluff. I sound polluted! D8
> 
> Oh and I'm that yellow dude. And I can stand it.
> 
> thisisanexaggerationandsimplicationandI'mnotoffendedatall


Bubbles that explode into plastic? Or bubbles resting on top of plastic? Bubbles aren't polluting, they're natural!


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Thank you?
> I thought about that as a brief joke of an idea, making a topic where I could tell people what I saw in them. But... It's not quite a typing system. There is no structure. It's just what I see in people, I guess. It comes.
> 
> Like I see Curi as one of those yellow clip art guys. She can't stand it. She doesn't understand it. But honestly, like, how is this not her?
> View attachment 344090
> 
> 
> (As for you, Laurie, I would have to give that some thought. Your avatar is already so abstract at the moment and I can't let it get in the way of what you are  )


Laurie is a lullaby.

As for the yellow clip art guy, can you explain why you associate it with Curiphant?


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Laurie is a lullaby.


:butterfly:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@laurie17 a game might be a cool idea. People might like that  I would just be hesitant to start a topic for it because I do come to these symbols, but it takes me a while to know someone before I can get a good idea of what they are. And these things come spontaneously in a way. 

I think you are a sphere, by the way. Not sure the size, but it's a weighted sphere, not too heavy but dense. I see like... white and soft grey (though not quite silver, more textured than that), more white than grey but the gray swirled lightly around the white expanse, almost in a pattern because it goes around the circumference but every pin point of the gray meeting the white is different. 

Not an explosion of things like how I described @Oswin, but... That's what I have for you now.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> :butterfly:


roud:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Laurie is a lullaby.
> 
> As for the yellow clip art guy, can you explain why you associate it with Curiphant?


That is true as well.  

I... I really can't, honestly. It's just her. It's weird.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> That is true as well.
> 
> I... I really can't, honestly. It's just her. It's weird.


I'm really curious about the way you come up with these descriptors.


----------



## fair phantom

sooooo....what kind of type gets a fit of self-loathing that leads them to impulsively give themselves terrible bangs?

Because that is probably my type.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm really curious about the way you come up with these descriptors.


I really don't know. It captures how I feel their souls. I hope they aren't disrespectful - it is odd to try to interpret someone for themselves - but... It's how I understand them. I mean, I don't just sit here and every time they say something I think of them as an object, but when I condense my understanding of them I come to these images I guess. Perhaps they're random, but... to me, they're much more than that. They are them. (Even though of course they are not them, they are only my perception of them.)


----------



## 68097

I am not God. Just because I say someone is a type does not make them so. I evaluate based on my perception of what they are showing me, and that can shift and change if additional information is introduced while I am consciously evaluating someone. But I do not constantly evaluate, all the time. Sometimes, a person will stick in my mind as a type, and I must be jarred out of seeing them that way, to consider another perspective. 

On an entirely different note, why did HBO cast Stephen Dillane as Stannis? I might be able to hate him if it weren't Dillane, but I have such a damned attraction to Dillane after his Thomas Jefferson that I can't help being attracted to Stannis. BOO.


----------



## Ninjaws

alittlebear said:


> I like it! Nice style.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I really don't know. It captures how I feel their souls. I hope they aren't disrespectful - it is odd to try to interpret someone for themselves - but... It's how I understand them. I mean, I don't just sit here and every time they say something I think of them as an object, but when I condense my understanding of them I come to these images I guess. Perhaps they're random, but... to me, they're much more than that. They are them. (Even though of course they are not them, they are only my perception of them.)


It's interesting you said "object" because your descriptors are usually objects or colors. Do they represent anything? Why a sphere for Laurie? What does it mean to you? 

@fair phantom I hope you're okay


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Curi actually got me into colors, years ago. She always saw people and things in colors, it seemed. She still can do it, describe people in colors, I think? I got interested in it and used the Color System in one of my stories (that never got written). Now I've forgotten the associations with the colors I directly made, but the color connotations are just there for me now? I can see them too I think. Purple is... glass, sophistication to some extent, the true mystery. Red is bold, but also secretive. Stubbing in a quiet but loud way, given the way it is. Blue is... I want to say blue is love because _I'm_ blue, but blue is sometimes superficial, sometimes deep. Many things, almost a mystery but more because it is changing and massive than because it is unexplainable.
> 
> (Of course these are not the solid meanings. It depends on the shade, the presentation, the context. But that's an idea I guess of some colors and their overt attributes.) (According to me. Curi has a different idea of what they mean, I think.)


I love this. A Bear typing thing would be fun.


----------



## Ninjaws

angelcat said:


> I am not God.


Nonsense.


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny I've calmed down and I'll be fine once I figure out how to make my hair not horrid ^^;;; Thank you for your concern.

*7 powers, activate!* each:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> It's interesting you said "object" because your descriptors are usually objects or colors. Do they represent anything? Why a sphere for Laurie? What does it mean to you?
> 
> @fair phantom I hope you're okay


My heart is pounding a little because they're so delicate. I cannot defend them... They are? And I can begin to explain how they are this thing... but it is difficult all the same, because my words still cannot account how they match entirely. They are. 

Like yes I see Curi as the yellow figure because it is simple, it is a bubble like her, it has the disposition I imagine is hers, it even matches the voice I assign to her, but... It's more than that. The essences match. In that case, I think that the yellow figure is very close to how I perceive her core. With Oswin and the objects/images/whatever I briefly described her with, I'm not sure that would be her core so much as manifestations of how I see her spirit, leaves essentially... because while I have known Oswin for some time, I have not known her to the point where I think I could say anything that would be close to her core. 

It's odd. I'm sorry I'm not explaining it well... But this is... I don't know. It's hard to explain. I apologize again if it comes off as disrespectful.... The objects I am associating them with have no connotation, they are innately neutral and brought to brilliance by the spirit of the people who I see them as the manifestation of.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> @shinynotshiny I've calmed down and I'll be fine once I figure out how to make my hair not horrid ^^;;; Thank you for your concern.


I'm sorry, I didn't quite know what you were saying.  

I'm sure your bangs are fine. I hope everything turns out okay. Please remember that you are very very very undeserving of any loathing and remember that you are wonderful.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ a game might be a cool idea. People might like that  I would just be hesitant to start a topic for it because I do come to these symbols, but it takes me a while to know someone before I can get a good idea of what they are. And these things come spontaneously in a way.
> 
> I think you are a sphere, by the way. Not sure the size, but it's a weighted sphere, not too heavy but dense. I see like... white and soft grey (though not quite silver, more textured than that), more white than grey but the gray swirled lightly around the white expanse, almost in a pattern because it goes around the circumference but every pin point of the gray meeting the white is different.
> 
> Not an explosion of things like how I described @_Oswin_, but... That's what I have for you now.


Haha, well, just do whatever you feel comfortable with!

Ahhhh, that's a cool description :ghost: Almost like a crystal ball or a monochrome version of those static electric spheres:








(But with more mist?)





fair phantom said:


> sooooo....what kind of type gets a fit of self-loathing that leads them to impulsively give themselves terrible bangs?
> 
> Because that is probably my type.


I hope you're doing okay  No bangs (fringes?) are bad, they're all just different styles.


----------



## 68097

Ninjaws said:


> Nonsense.












*watching GOT and saying ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME?!?!*


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> There's entire forum section full of buzzfeed quizzes. People are fine with vague "just because" in those cases.
> 
> DO ME DO ME
> 
> 
> Well, I'd cut my hair Mulan-style a few times in my life. Last time 2 years ago, led to a pixie cut. Just remember that hair is jsut a hair - it'll grow back. Bad haircut is not the end - it's the beginning of getting a better hair cut. ;D
> 
> Speaking of which, how do you people go about your hair? I went from "TRY ALL THE COLOR&SHAPE COMBOS!" to "i'm too depressed to give a fuck" so it grew to my butt and then I got better cut most of it myself and then went through various short cuts, symmetrical cuts, mohawk and now shaved half my head and let the other side grow (since it's short because of mohawk).


lol this post

I did the "grew it to my butt" thing out of laziness but also because my mother didn't approve of women with short hair, so I said I wouldn't cut it at all until she caved. Took her five years until she said "cut it you need to cut it" and I did :joyous:


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> Focus on the episode and let your tears warm your cheeks.


Tears? Me?

While there is *this gifset* to laugh at? Not likely.

But seriously? Does this show LIVE to make people ask WTF?


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Ninjaws said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *watching GOT and saying ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME?!?!*
Click to expand...

Cant watch for 2 more weeks! I am going insane!!!

Ps... i thought i was the only one who found Stannis (his actor really), sexxxay as heck.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I am not understanding this Stannis attraction, and I do not know that I would want to.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Tears? Me?
> 
> While there is *this gifset* to laugh at? Not likely.
> 
> But seriously? Does this show LIVE to make people ask WTF?



* *




I was like "Oh, boy. They'll take over Winterfell! I wonder how! Long battle? Wow!.. ... ... Wait. ... THAT'S IT?


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Is she INTJ? I think I saw a video with her.


She seems INTJ to me, but I can't say with certainty.


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> Ps... i thought i was the only one who found Stanis (his actor really), sexxxay as heck.


Stephen Dillane is sexy. He was beyond awesome in "John Adams." Such a mega-level flirt as Thomas Jefferson. Is it wrong to lust after a Founding Father? Oh, well. I'm not alone. (I remember watching the first episode of that series with friends and we were alike "Ehhh... Abigail Adams is pretty rad," and then in episode two after Jefferson turned up, suddenly it was all "OMG, this is the BEST THING EVER. WE WANT MOAR." LOL, girls.)



alittlebear said:


> I am not understanding this Stannis attraction, and I do not know that I would want to.


Good. He's mine.



Greyhart said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was like "Oh, boy. They'll take over Winterfell! I wonder how! Long battle? Wow!.. ... ... Wait. ... THAT'S IT?


I KNOW RIGHT??? I like blinked and it was over? Since when does Ramsay have a freakin' army? Or Stannis not send scouts? Or GOT back out of a chance to show epic-level gore? 

I am disappoint.


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> lol this post
> 
> I did the "grew it to my butt" thing out of laziness but also because my mother didn't approve of women with short hair, so I said I wouldn't cut it at all until she caved. Took her five years until she said "cut it you need to cut it" and I did :joyous:


Your hair is longer than my sister's in this! (And she has the longest hair of anyone we know) I am impressed. (It's also such a nice colour!)



Greyhart said:


> Well, I'd cut my hair Mulan-style a few times in my life. Last time 2 years ago, led to a pixie cut. Just remember that hair is jsut a hair - it'll grow back. Bad haircut is not the end - it's the beginning of getting a better hair cut. ;D
> 
> Speaking of which, how do you people go about your hair? I went from "TRY ALL THE COLOR&SHAPE COMBOS!" to "i'm too depressed to give a fuck" so it grew to my butt and then I got better cut most of it myself and then went through various short cuts, symmetrical cuts, mohawk and now shaved half my head and let the other side grow (since it's short because of mohawk).


Your hair sounds much more interesting (it's cool to see different-looking hair - most of the girls at my university just had medium length lightly-curled hair or top-knots).

I mostly alternate between a chin-length cut and almost-to-my-waist style, because I'm cheap and don't want to pay for a hairdresser (and my hair grows ridiculously fast), but can't cut my own hair because it's too thick (and naturally wavy with a coating of frizz - I was not called loo-brush Laurie by my friend for nothing) and needs layering or it goes into a triangle. I did get a full fringe (bangs?) cut once and didn't like it. I've mostly had a half fringe, then I grew it out a while back because... reasons I don't remember. I wish I could have really short hair, but it makes me feel too exposed...

Hm, I kind of don't think about it most of the time, though. I just notice when it's long enough to get trapped behind me when I sit down, or when it starts dangling dangerously close to my food or drink... Then, very occasionally, I'll think 'It would be nice to do X with it', but never do.

Current hair in fuzzy glory. (Excuse the neon shirt)


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> I am not understanding this Stannis attraction, and I do not know that I would want to.


Well I don't know the actor, like angelcat does. For me, its just the scruffy MANLYness. I like Baelish for his brain, Jon for his loyalty/bravery, and Bronn for his wit.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> lol this post
> 
> I did the "grew it to my butt" thing out of laziness but also because my mother didn't approve of women with short hair, so I said I wouldn't cut it at all until she caved. Took her five years until she said "cut it you need to cut it" and I did :joyous:


Your hair looks so softttttt and it's so glossy and smooth and not frizzy and looks so vital and what a pretty color and it's straightttt


----------



## Persephone Soul

In other news...
This made me think of your easter candy/bunny dilemma, alittlebear. Lol
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=863951680312081&id=102313626475894


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> Your hair is longer than my sister's in this! (And she has the longest hair of anyone we know) I am impressed. (It's also such a nice colour!)


Thank you :teapot:

More recently I had it mid-back, then I showed up one day with a pixie cut and everyone was astounded. I tend to let it grow long enough to donate before cutting it all off. It shocks most people.

I wish I had thick hair, or curly hair like my mother. Ah well.

@Curiphant too straight :dispirited:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Curiphant said:


> shinynotshiny said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol this post
> 
> I did the "grew it to my butt" thing out of laziness but also because my mother didn't approve of women with short hair, so I said I wouldn't cut it at all until she caved. Took her five years until she said "cut it you need to cut it" and I did
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your hair looks so softttttt and it's so glossy and smooth and not frizzy and looks so vital and what a pretty color and it's straightttt
Click to expand...

 It does look like the "after" picture of a shampoo commercial lol


----------



## orbit

I hacked several inches of my hair off in November because I wanted to see if there was actual meaning to hair or if there were any consequences. I like it longer though because my hair already looks shorter than it is because of the curls >< It's dark brown and the front is shorter than the back (since that's where I cut it haphazardly) so I can go from looking like I have shoulder length hair to several inches longer. 

Also short hair is annoying with sports because it falls out of the pony tail and then it gets into your face and then you have sweaty short hair all over the place


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Thank you :teapot:
> 
> More recently I had it mid-back, then I showed up one day with a pixie cut and everyone was astounded. I tend to let it grow long enough to donate before cutting it all off. It shocks most people.
> 
> I wish I had thick hair, or curly hair like my mother. Ah well.
> 
> @Curiphant too straight :dispirited:


Straight hair is pretty! It's so glossy and more manageable than curly hair I think?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Straight hair is pretty! It's so glossy and more manageable than curly hair I think?


Thank you 

I've always loved curly hair, but it's true straight hair can be less time-consuming.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Is she INTJ? I think I saw a video with her.


The poem actually looked Si-ish to me but I don't feel like explaining right now 

Are @alittlebear's interpretations of people Ni or Ne? They remind me of my INFJ friend. Though I have also associated people with colors but not in that way. *shrug*



Greyhart said:


> YES. My ego likes being interpreted. :dog:


Honestly I people read just through their avatars and those very individuals often say I am accurate so.

Everyone calls you weird and you honestly do not understand why, so you play up the weirdo archetype just to keep people on their toes, because if you didn't your heart would break. At least they have reasons to consider you as weird. You are playful, and like ribbing them and testing their stupidity a la Bugs Bunny. You are mostly a chill, bubbly, devious trickster unless that stupidity borders insanity causing you to rage quit. Half the time you do not know what you are doing or where you are going... life is discovery and exploration mode for you. Everything you do or discover is completely and entirely on accident, from the friends you make to your fashion style to your interests to what you ate for breakfast this morning. You can come across as obsessive in your interests and while you can talk to anyone with ease, you could easily detach in solitude for a week and get lost in fandom, video games and raccoon anatomy.

From your avatar you come across as detached, scientific and a brooding romantic. Interested in comics (not sure what that's from but it looks like something a comic fan would enjoy regardless if it's not an animated adaption) and the inner workings of villains and serial killers. You like the macabre and morbid and are intrigued rather than mortified by blood and guts. Studious, intellectually curious. Mostly nerdy but with a slight goth streak, particularly in your artistic tastes.

I make you sound cold blooded and that is not my intention lol.


----------



## Vermillion

angelcat said:


> But... if you don't 'get' Fe, you're not Fe. Being an extroverted function, I think you would recognize it if you use it.


What's the logic behind this statement? There are plenty of people who are unable to recognize their respective extroverted functions. I didn't "get" Se either, a couple of years ago. Turns out I'm an Se dom after all. I just had access to wrong function definitions.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> The poem actually looked Si-ish to me but I don't feel like explaining right now


The man was the orange/the orange was the man. She sees an object for what it is but wants the deeper meaning. That's part of what I took from the poem.

What do you take from my avatar(s)?


----------



## 68097

Amaterasu said:


> What's the logic behind this statement? There are plenty of people who are unable to recognize their respective extroverted functions.


Not when you understand what the function objectively DOES. Then, it's fairly easy to self-identify. Once I knew what Fe actually _was_, free of stereotypical BS, I realized it has dominated my entire life.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Oh and @Oswin regarding your type, I really don't know. As I explained to Curi, it's especially difficult for me to type people who I have come to know. The types are boxes where individuals go within this system, but my problem is that I see your own unique boxes and it is difficult for me to essentially cram who you are into the best box for you. In terms of houses I am already lost in your interior, unable to say what type of frame holds the structure up.
> 
> I know that's a really lame excuse... but really I think that's how it is for me. You are lace and a smile and a purple flower, and of course other things I can never ever truly fathom, but I cannot give you a good idea what type that is. F?
> 
> Given that @Amaterasu and @angelcat both typed you as ENFJ, though, I suppose I would be inclined to believe that's your type ^^


I'm so excited to be lace and a smile and a purple flower!)) So I will forgive your silence on my type))










Anyways, yeah, I'm leaning ENFJ. I just want to be sure.


----------



## Vermillion

angelcat said:


> Not when you understand what the function objectively DOES. Then, it's fairly easy to self-identify. Once I knew what Fe actually _was_, free of stereotypical BS, I realized it has dominated my entire life.


That assumes they have the right information about the function available to them AND it assumes they understood the information in the right way. It also assumes they have a good degree of self-awareness. Without those precursors, no, it is not that simple.


----------



## 68097

Amaterasu said:


> That assumes they have the right information about the function available to them AND it assumes they understood the information in the right way. It also assumes they have a good degree of self-awareness. Without those precursors, no, it is not that simple.


You are absolutely right -- it is in no way simple. People can take years to determine their type. I had my functions correct for a year and a half, but out of order. Having simple definitions of the functions would have helped but alas, most of what is out there is framed in abstract language that disguises what the functions actually do and how they produce the emotions in us that they do. 

But, as you yourself edited into your last response, once you knew what Se was, objectively, you figured it out.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Amaterasu said:


> angelcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> But... if you don't 'get' Fe, you're not Fe. Being an extroverted function, I think you would recognize it if you use it.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the logic behind this statement? There are plenty of people who are unable to recognize their respective extroverted functions. I didn't "get" Se either, a couple of years ago. Turns out I'm an Se dom after all. I just had access to wrong function definitions.
Click to expand...




angelcat said:


> Amaterasu said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the logic behind this statement? There are plenty of people who are unable to recognize their respective extroverted functions.
> 
> 
> 
> Not when you understand what the function objectively DOES. Then, it's fairly easy to self-identify. Once I knew what Fe actually _was_, free of stereotypical BS, I realized it has dominated my entire life.
Click to expand...

I am aware by now. Over a year of studying. Yes the very beginning was stereotypical BS. But that has been over for quite some time now.

I do find it hard to determine which is a natural state because of my easy access to both. My upbringing. My unhealthy mental state. It clouds the judgment. When I feel I use Fi more naturally, but I keep getting told that I don't do the stereotypical things Fi does (or doesn't do), then I feel we are all guilty of this.

If it doesn't have to do with ACTIONS but with PROCESSING, then why can't an Fi dom come off as an Fe dom? I give an Fe energy, but still, where is the Fe process in me?


EDIT: I am not actually asking. I am just making a point. Typing can be blurry for some, EVEN when they fully understand, and move past the stereotypical BS.


----------



## Vermillion

angelcat said:


> You are absolutely right -- it is in no way simple. People can take years to determine their type. I had my functions correct for a year and a half, but out of order. Having simple definitions of the functions would have helped but alas, most of what is out there is framed in abstract language that disguises what the functions actually do and how they produce the emotions in us that they do.
> 
> But, as you yourself edited into your last response, once you knew what Se was, objectively, you figured it out.


Objectivity is highly debatable. For example, how do you know you get Fe? How do I know I get Se? That's entirely dependent on the definitions we use.

Also, it still doesn't explain what you said at the beginning.



> _But... if you don't 'get' Fe, you're not Fe. Being an extroverted function, I think you would recognize it if you use it._


It's completely possible for someone to be Fe even if they don't relate to some descriptions about it, because it's entirely possible their information is wrong. 

Moreover, what does being an extroverted function have to do with the ability to recognize it? Are you saying extroverted functions are easier to recognize?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> The man was the orange/the orange was the man. She sees an object for what it is but wants the deeper meaning. That's part of what I took from the poem.
> 
> What do you take from my avatar(s)?


I'm going to have to read it again and post my interpretation. I thought either Ni/Se or some Si devaluating objects. Like @fair phantom I enjoy multiple interpretations, especially when they steer away from the genuine meaning, just to add an extra zing.

Similar to @Greyhart I see detached intellectualism, but hers is more in the vein of curiosity with the eccentric or morbid and yours is more out of preservation and duty (not traditionalism, as you don't strike me as one, but pragmatic duty). You are interested in survival and integrity and come across as a knight in armor as your weakness is well hidden unless safe to expose. You are warm on the inside but stoic in order to fend for yourself, which leads to misinterpretation. For the most part you are very peaceful, but you will not go without a fight. You do what needs to be done to enjoy your leisure time, which is video games or fantasy/sci-fi related work. You attach yourself deeply to characters whom you relate to and consider them your alternate family, particularly self sufficient intellectuals whom you desire to be. You mostly keep to yourself but attend to those who are worth attending to and show them your gratitude eloquently.

Disclaimer I do not claim to be accurate. It's all in fun.


----------



## 68097

Amaterasu said:


> However, it still doesn't explain what you said at the beginning.


She knows herself better than a bunch of strangers being randomly polled on the internet, and if she can't identify with Fe, it is likely that she does not use dominant Fe. She got very upset when everyone typed her as an ESFJ, because she didn't feel Fe was the accurate feeling function for her... and as far as I can tell, she still doesn't. 



> It's completely possible for someone to be Fe even if they don't relate to some descriptions about it, because it's entirely possible their information is wrong.


True, but by now she's read a dozen varied resources, including reading up on inferior functions and how they manifest. 



> Moreover, what does being an extroverted function have to do with the ability to recognize it? Are you saying extroverted functions are easier to recognize?


For me, yes. I can fairly easily spot extroverted functions in other people, because it turns up either in their communication style or in their preferences.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Amaterasu said:


> Objectivity is highly debatable. For example, how do you know you get Fe? How do I know I get Se? That's entirely dependent on the definitions we use.
> 
> Also, it still doesn't explain what you said at the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> It's completely possible for someone to be Fe even if they don't relate to some descriptions about it, because it's entirely possible their information is wrong.
> 
> Moreover, what does being an extroverted function have to do with the ability to recognize it? Are you saying extroverted functions are easier to recognize?


And even if their information is correct, their understanding of themselves can be altered.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> And even if their information is correct, their understanding of themselves can be altered.


True. Everyone is quite capable of self-delusions.

I have a feeling if we were able to be around one another in person, our types would much more clearly reveal themselves.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> sooooo....what kind of type gets a fit of self-loathing that leads them to impulsively give themselves terrible bangs?
> 
> Because that is probably my type.


Bangs are not bad. Bangs grow pretty quickly. And I'm sure they don't look as bad as you are thinking.
I once went from this:








to this (post hair-salon):









It was not a fun year, hair-wise.


----------



## 68097

I think the pixie cut was cute on you, though.

I've had pixies on and off for fifteen or so years. I haven't had long hair since I was ... 10? I'm trying to grow it out, "trying" being the operative word. I always get bored and cut it all off, because my hair grows so slowly. 

One more word on GOT: REALLY???? YA JERKS.

*goes off to watch something where random people die and not main characters*


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I'm going to have to read it again and post my interpretation. I thought either Ni/Se or some Si devaluating objects. Like @_fair phantom_ I enjoy multiple interpretations, especially when they steer away from the genuine meaning, just to add an extra zing.
> 
> Similar to @_Greyhart_ I see detached intellectualism, but hers is more in the vein of curiosity with the eccentric or morbid and yours is more out of preservation and duty (not traditionalism, as you don't strike me as one, but pragmatic duty). You are interested in survival and integrity and come across as a knight in armor as your weakness is well hidden unless safe to expose. You are warm on the inside but stoic in order to fend for yourself, which leads to misinterpretation. For the most part you are very peaceful, but you will not go without a fight. You do what needs to be done to enjoy your leisure time, which is video games or fantasy/sci-fi related work. You attach yourself deeply to characters whom you relate to and consider them your alternate family, particularly self sufficient intellectuals whom you desire to be. You mostly keep to yourself but attend to those who are worth attending to and show them your gratitude eloquently.
> 
> Disclaimer I do not claim to be accurate. It's all in fun.


I keep the weird to myself eaceful:

But, yes, I need to fortify my wall now.

[Edit] @Oswin why was it a bad year? The pixie looked very cute :joyous:


----------



## Vermillion

angelcat said:


> She knows herself better than a bunch of strangers being randomly polled on the internet, and if she can't identify with Fe, it is likely that she does not use dominant Fe. She got very upset when everyone typed her as an ESFJ, because she didn't feel Fe was the accurate feeling function for her... and as far as I can tell, she still doesn't.


Though typology isn't about what "feels" right for you -- it's about what synchronizes coherently with the system.



> True, but by now she's read a dozen varied resources, including reading up on inferior functions and how they manifest.


Reading does not imply understanding correctly. Also, afaik the inferior function descriptions circulated here are those of Naomi Quenk, who is kinda inaccurate in several ways.

Reminder: I don't know who that "she" is that you're referring to. I'm merely questioning the premise of your argument.



> For me, yes. I can fairly easily spot extroverted functions in other people, because it turns up either in their communication style or in their preferences.


Introverted functions show up equally regularly and openly in communication and preferences, however.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I am here, guys. I have read different recourse, yes. Ummm, isn't that what you're supposed to do? 

How do YOU know YOUR sources are the 'correct' ones? 

I am reading a book on inferior functions, yes. I have read a book on childhood typing. I have read a book on Eneagram. I have read some of Jungs work. I have read the briefly through some stuff on socionics. 

Last time I checked, I am doing what everyone else is doing? So what makes anyone think they have the 'right' material?

Angelcat, one more time. I never got upset with me typed as an ESFJ. I was getting upset for people giving me reasons that were inaccurate to me.

I STILL have not excluded ESFJ. I never got upset. Especially in this thread lol. However, I am not liking being talked about in the 3rd person.


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> Amaterasu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Objectivity is highly debatable. For example, how do you know you get Fe? How do I know I get Se? That's entirely dependent on the definitions we use.
> 
> Also, it still doesn't explain what you said at the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> It's completely possible for someone to be Fe even if they don't relate to some descriptions about it, because it's entirely possible their information is wrong.
> 
> Moreover, what does being an extroverted function have to do with the ability to recognize it? Are you saying extroverted functions are easier to recognize?
> 
> 
> 
> And even if their information is correct, their understanding of themselves can be altered.
Click to expand...

True, but can ANYBODIES. lol


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> And even if their information is correct, their understanding of themselves can be altered.
> 
> 
> 
> True. Everyone is quite capable of self-delusions.
> 
> I have a feeling if we were able to be around one another in person, our types would much more clearly reveal themselves.
Click to expand...

For realz.


----------



## orbit

Amaterasu said:


> What's the logic behind this statement? There are plenty of people who are unable to recognize their respective extroverted functions. I didn't "get" Se either, a couple of years ago. Turns out I'm an Se dom after all. I just had access to wrong function definitions.


What do you think Se is by the way ><


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> Bangs are not bad. Bangs grow pretty quickly. And I'm sure they don't look as bad as you are thinking.
> I once went from this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to this (post hair-salon):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was not a fun year, hair-wise.


You are so pretty! I have always thought so.

The pixie cut looks very cute; betty-boopish somehow, but since she was never betrayed with a pixie I do not know how that impression strikes. You remind me of the 40's-50's and I think that decade very much suits you.

I love the fact you are standing against a bookshelf as your remind me of literature.

Tempted to do a reading for you as well.

I also agree that Naomi Quenk was very off in many interpretations. She struck me as so right but after learning more (especially Jungian descriptions) I believe she was profound when correct and on the highway to Hell when wrong.
@SugarPlum I believe "correct" at least in theory, is based on one's own interpretations. Under Naomi's rhetoric you could be correct if following her interpretations to the letter. Is the system that resonates to you that matters. That is what causes contention; the many different interpretations. This is not the scientific method after all. Use whatever you believe provides the most insight into people.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> I think the pixie cut was cute on you, though.
> 
> I've had pixies on and off for fifteen or so years. I haven't had long hair since I was ... 10? I'm trying to grow it out, "trying" being the operative word. I always get bored and cut it all off, because my hair grows so slowly.
> 
> One more word on GOT: REALLY???? YA JERKS.
> 
> *goes off to watch something where random people die and not main characters*


Your author pic on your blog, has longer hair...?

I have never had hair shorter than my shoulders. And that was a one time thing, bu accident lol


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> I've thought about doing non typology impressions of anyone who wants one. Just general rainbow ruse traits not the colors of your souls.


I'm curious!



alittlebear said:


> @fair phantom I've thought of you as a light-ish deep blue with touches of white wisp, but was that like an avatar of yours or something? That one feels really obvious. I think that's someone's avatar probably?


Pretty ^_^



Greyhart said:


> Well, I'd cut my hair Mulan-style a few times in my life. Last time 2 years ago, led to a pixie cut. Just remember that hair is jsut a hair - it'll grow back. Bad haircut is not the end - it's the beginning of getting a better hair cut. ;D
> 
> Speaking of which, how do you people go about your hair? I went from "TRY ALL THE COLOR&SHAPE COMBOS!" to "i'm too depressed to give a fuck" so it grew to my butt and then I got better cut most of it myself and then went through various short cuts, symmetrical cuts, mohawk and now shaved half my head and let the other side grow (since it's short because of mohawk).


Well I wore it in a variety of pixie styles for most of my college years, then I grew it out and I've been wearing it long and layered since. I usually straighten it if I want to look nice. Curls are such a pain. Color has been various shades of red for years.

I kind of miss having a pixie but growing it out was such an ordeal. I wish I could change it at will.



hoopla said:


> @fair phantom I have cut my hair out of anger twice. Well second time was anger, first was a panic attack. I was mistaken as a boy for months. I enjoy being feminine so I was *not* happy. I thought I was insane, until a friend showed me a movie of a girl doing the same thing on crunchyroll. Fortunately the first that had happened, Britney Spears was in the tabloids to help lighten the mood.


I'm so glad I'm not alone. This makes me feel better. Thank you for sharing. :love_heart:



shinynotshiny said:


> lol this post
> 
> I did the "grew it to my butt" thing out of laziness but also because my mother didn't approve of women with short hair, so I said I wouldn't cut it at all until she caved. Took her five years until she said "cut it you need to cut it" and I did :joyous:


OMG I AM SO JEALOUS OF YOUR HAIR. IT IS SO SMOOTH AND SOFT.

why are so many people against short hair? stuff and nonsense! I should dig up some of the pics from when I had a pixie. The only annoying thing about short hair was that I got bored and it cost too much money to get frequent haircuts.
@shinynotshiny @hoopla @Greyhart I need to watch some interviews (I'll try to get to that late tonight) but I'm inclined towards INTJ atm.


----------



## Dangerose

Eh, I don't like short hair on myself and it grew out very, very awkwardly. 
Anyways, the Internet only works in my house if I sit in the dark study next to the Internet thing...and it's a sunny day, so I'm not going to catch up on this thread till tonight)
(not sure why it suddenly only has a 2-foot radius)


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Not when you understand what the function objectively DOES. Then, it's fairly easy to self-identify. Once I knew what Fe actually _was_, free of stereotypical BS, I realized it has dominated my entire life.


True. Once I actually read Ne descriptions that wasn't "3 sentences imagination blah blah" it was startlingly clear that it what I struggled to explain to others.



hoopla said:


> The poem actually looked Si-ish to me but I don't feel like explaining right now



* *



















> Are @alittlebear 's interpretations of people Ni or Ne? They remind me of my INFJ friend. Though I have also associated people with colors but not in that way. *shrug*


Well, you've seen mine. Professors, mummies, bunkers...



> Honestly I people read just through their avatars and those very individuals often say I am accurate so.
> 
> Everyone calls you weird and you honestly do not understand why, so you play up the weirdo archetype just to keep people on their toes, because if you didn't your heart would break. At least they have reasons to consider you as weird. You are playful, and like ribbing them and testing their stupidity a la Bugs Bunny. You are mostly a chill, bubbly, devious trickster unless that stupidity borders insanity causing you to rage quit. Half the time you do not know what you are doing or where you are going... life is discovery and exploration mode for you. You can come across as obsessive in your interests and while you can talk to anyone with ease, you could easily detach in solitude for a week and get lost in fandom, video games and raccoon anatomy.
> 
> From your avatar you come across as detached, scientific and a brooding romantic. Interested in comics (not sure what that's from but it looks like something a comic fan would enjoy regardless if it's not an animated adaption) and the inner workings of villains and serial killers. You like the macabre and morbid and are intrigued rather than mortified by blood and guts. Studious, intellectually curious. Mostly nerdy but with a slight goth streak, particularly in your artistic tastes.
> 
> I make you sound cold blooded and that is not my intention lol.


That was beautiful and eerie true. :') You, creepy Si impression collector.









@ everyone





One of my favorite music videos and songs of all time. Woman on my avatar is supposed to be Death.


----------



## orbit

@hoopla, I wouldn't mind an impression if you get around to it. You're probably backlogged by now though. ^^


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> You are so pretty! I have always thought so.
> 
> The pixie cut looks very cute; betty-boopish somehow, but since she was never betrayed with a pixie I do not know how that impression strikes. You remind me of the 40's-50's and I think that decade very much suits you.
> 
> I love the fact you are standing against a bookshelf as your remind me of literature.
> 
> Tempted to do a reading for you as well.
> 
> I also agree that Naomi Quenk was very off in many interpretations. She struck me as so right but after learning more (especially Jungian descriptions) I believe she was profound when correct and on the highway to Hell when wrong.


Ee, thank you)
It was an anger-pixie-cut which is partly why I hated it so much)
Go ahead))


----------



## Persephone Soul

Amaterasu said:


> angelcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> She knows herself better than a bunch of strangers being randomly polled on the internet, and if she can't identify with Fe, it is likely that she does not use dominant Fe. She got very upset when everyone typed her as an ESFJ, because she didn't feel Fe was the accurate feeling function for her... and as far as I can tell, she still doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Though typology isn't about what "feels" right for you -- it's about what synchronizes coherently with the system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but by now she's read a dozen varied resources, including reading up on inferior functions and how they manifest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Reading does not imply understanding correctly. Also, afaik the inferior function descriptions circulated here are those of Naomi Quenk, who is kinda inaccurate in several ways.
> 
> Reminder: I don't know who that "she" is that you're referring to. I'm merely questioning the premise of your argument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me, yes. I can fairly easily spot extroverted functions in other people, because it turns up either in their communication style or in their preferences.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Introverted functions show up equally regularly and openly in communication and preferences, however.
Click to expand...

I say this with respect. BUT, what exactly makes you the expert. If you dont read to understand, do you have some kind of magical fairy dust? One that causes understanding to just... come upon you?

I am just confused where this is all coming from. 

All sources of information are just that. Sources. This is TECHNICALLY all theory anyway. So why get so dogmatic about it. 

How does ANYBODY know which sources are correct and which aren't? Some may only be half correct. But unless you get the information from Jung himself, then all info you gather can be incorrect.


----------



## Greyhart

I've lost thread of conversation. @Oswin doesn't relate to Fe dom at all?


----------



## Vermillion

SugarPlum said:


> I say this with respect. BUT, what exactly makes you the expert. If you dont read to understand, do you have some kind of magical fairy dust? One that causes understanding to just... come upon you?
> 
> I am just confused where this is all coming from.
> 
> All sources of information are just that. Sources. This is TECHNICALLY all theory anyway. So why get so dogmatic about it.
> 
> How does ANYBODY know which sources are correct and which aren't? Some may only be half correct. But unless you get the information from Jung himself, then all info you gather can be incorrect.


You haven't managed to sound respectful, but I'll let that slide. I think you're offended because you're assuming I'm talking about you. I'm arguing a premise, which means I'm speaking in general, not about your specific understanding. 

There are ways to ascertain which sources are more correct than some others. Sources likely to be more correct eschew stereotypes and refrain from talking about behavioral manifestations. They refrain from talking about common human tendencies and focus instead of specific functional characteristics. 

In the end, when you are typing yourself WITHIN a theory, you are expected to adhere to the postulates of the theory for your typing to be successful. Sources that are closest to Jung's original propositions in meaning are thus more correct, and sources that abandon the postulates of the theory and pursue their own wishful speculation are wrong.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart I was also a weirdo and people still call me weird and I do not get it? So it hurts very much when it's parts of you that feel innate that are criticized, so then flamboyancy is an aide, because then they are accurate when they call you weird and it's nothing personal. I was bullied immensely so in HS I drew pictures of zombies eating people because when they called me weird it hurt less. Honestly your sig quote just gives that impression in general. I can tell it's more of a "uh why do you think I'm weird but ok pride?" sort of thing. 

Yes it's a very sensory approach but I'm called intuitive very often because of it? I'll be disgusting and admit I played with INFJ like everyone else because a few people typed me as one (I doubt I'd consider it if it weren't for that) and I thought "uh maybe I am tearing apart the objective image to find the symbolic hidden meaning (which is where I disagree with @angelcat that understanding functions means you will type accurately)? No it's Si-Ne and also with a Ti tinge. I am an Fe sack of crappy feels but I think my Ti is decently developed so I can look unstereotypical? But when injustice is to be had or I am embarrassed it's a lot of Fe and I am very sensory :cheers2:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Amaterasu said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I say this with respect. BUT, what exactly makes you the expert. If you dont read to understand, do you have some kind of magical fairy dust? One that causes understanding to just... come upon you?
> 
> I am just confused where this is all coming from.
> 
> All sources of information are just that. Sources. This is TECHNICALLY all theory anyway. So why get so dogmatic about it.
> 
> How does ANYBODY know which sources are correct and which aren't? Some may only be half correct. But unless you get the information from Jung himself, then all info you gather can be incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't managed to sound respectful, but I'll let that slide. I think you're offended because you're assuming I'm talking about you. I'm arguing a premise, which means I'm speaking in general, not about your specific understanding.
> 
> There are ways to ascertain which sources are more correct than some others. Sources likely to be more correct eschew stereotypes and refrain from talking about behavioral manifestations. They refrain from talking about common human tendencies and focus instead of specific functional characteristics.
> 
> In the end, when you are typing yourself WITHIN a theory, you are expected to adhere to the postulates of the theory for your typing to be successful. Sources that are closest to Jung's original propositions in meaning are thus more correct, and sources that abandon the postulates of the theory and pursue their own wishful speculation are wrong.
Click to expand...

This I agree with.

And no, I didn't think you were talking about me specifically. But your blanketed comments did relate to me. Specifally with reading to understand. If I don't read to understand, then I am not sure what I am supposed to do lol.

Anyway, yes, this all makes sense. Unless it comes from Jung himself, I think all material shouldn't be taken as gospel (within the theory of Jungian Typology). 

I look at Jung's theory the way I look at the Bible. There is only one objective truth. But everyone will subjectively try to understand it. That still doesn't take away the fact that there is still on one objective truth to it .


----------



## Greyhart

Amaterasu said:


> You haven't managed to sound respectful, but I'll let that slide. I think you're offended because you're assuming I'm talking about you. I'm arguing a premise, which means I'm speaking in general, not about your specific understanding.
> 
> There are ways to ascertain which sources are more correct than some others. Sources likely to be more correct eschew stereotypes and refrain from talking about behavioral manifestations. They refrain from talking about common human tendencies and focus instead of specific functional characteristics.
> 
> In the end, when you are typing yourself WITHIN a theory, you are expected to adhere to the postulates of the theory for your typing to be successful. Sources that are closest to Jung's original propositions in meaning are thus more correct, and sources that abandon the postulates of the theory and pursue their own wishful speculation are wrong.


I'll never be able to adhere to a single theory. They are all subjective interpretation of the same psychological phenomena. Hence there's a bit of "objective" thread of truth that connects them all. The problem is separating generalized behavior or unrelated tendencies from what we *want* to subscribe to functions.


----------



## Bugs

Understanding the functions will help you understand type theory only but whether type theory is remotely accurate in many situations is very debatable.


----------



## Bugs

Greyhart said:


> I'll never be able to adhere to a single theory. They are all subjective interpretation of the same psychological phenomena. Hence there's a bit of "objective" thread of truth that connects them all. The problem is separating generalized behavior or unrelated tendencies from what we *want* to subscribe to functions.


I think people fail when they relate causality between functions and behavior.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Bugs said:


> Understanding the functions will help you understand type theory only but whether type theory is remotely accurate in many situations is very debatable.


Precisely.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

I think that a problem is that people may paint some functions in a better light than others, misleading anyone that doesn't know the theory in depth. That kind of bias and stereotypes lead to people to refuse to accept their type if it's seen as trash, like with the anti-sensor bias.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> I look at Jung's theory the way I look at the Bible. There is only one objective truth. But everyone will subjectively try to understand it. That still doesn't take away the fact that there is still on one objective truth to it .


So if there is an objective truth then how do we know which sources are objective truths (which is what you were criticizing people for earlier)?


----------



## Vermillion

SugarPlum said:


> This I agree with.
> 
> And no, I didn't think you were talking about me specifically. But your blanketed comments did relate to me. Specifally with reading to understand. If I don't read to understand, then I am not sire what I am supposed to do lol.


How many times do you want me to say this...? When I was responding to angelcat, I disagreed with the statement she made. I had no idea WHO that statement was about and it didn't matter to me, because I'm arguing the logic behind the statement. NOT the application of the statement. So it's not about your typing journey, for fuck's sake. Nothing is "blanketed", stop assuming it is. 

As for reading to understand, people can read with the *intention* of understanding, but that doesn't mean they are a) reading the right material or b) understanding it in the way they are supposed to understand it. 



> Anyway, yes, this all makes sense. Unless it comes from Jung himself, I think all material shouldn't be taken as gospel (with the theory of Jungian Typology).
> 
> I look at Jung's theory the way I look at the Bible. There i only one objective truth. But everyone will subjectively try to understand it. That still doesn't take away the fact that there is still on one objective truth to it .


Some theories do a better job of conveying Jung's message than others. Socionics, for example, is far superior to MBTI in that regard.


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> Not sure if I'd associate over-thinking with strictly Ti preference. Pretty sure I qualify for over-thinking about my health and relationships with others.


I don't even do that, barely. I overanalyze my dreams, as if they mean something. I overanalyze my Inferior Ni thoughts, I overanalyze public scenarios, and I overanalyze the shitty plans I try make. All this happens in bed at night though, whe i switch off xP




hoopla said:


> xNFJs (especially Ni doms) actually look very removed and detached from people. My INFJ friend is extremely introverted, and even considers herself to be slightly unhuman.


Dang. Then why do some xNFJs have Fe if they don't engage in others? 


P.S- I bet y'all have some weird Irish/Latino accent assigned for me, when you read my posts. You all don't have assigned accents from me. Yet. 

And also, I might randomly dissappear for a few days, and go read books. And play guitar, and raise some money to buy transportation for myself.

Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look at Jung's theory the way I look at the Bible. There is only one objective truth. But everyone will subjectively try to understand it. That still doesn't take away the fact that there is still on one objective truth to it .
> 
> 
> 
> So if there is an objective truth then how do we know which sources are objective truths (which is what you were criticizing people for earlier)?
Click to expand...

 We don't know. Jung's descriptions are the truth (within his theory). Other sources are just subjective interpretations. Some may be closer to the truth than others.

Same with the bible. Bible only had one truth, but all these people sell many books etc on their subjective truth they get from it. Some may infact be very close... 



Why am I being misunderstood? Maybe I am not explaining it clearly... ? 

When and where was i criticizing people?


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> @Greyhart I was also a weirdo and people still call me weird and I do not get it? So it hurts very much when it's parts of you that feel innate that are criticized, so then flamboyancy is an aide, because then they are accurate when they call you weird and it's nothing personal. I was bullied immensely so in HS I drew pictures of zombies eating people because when they called me weird it hurt less. Honestly your sig quote just gives that impression in general. I can tell it's more of a "uh why do you think I'm weird but ok pride?" sort of thing.


Story of my life since I got to teenage years when being weird fun loving kid wasn't cool anymore. Make a best of what you have :encouragement: wear it as radish earrings for people to see since no matter how much you hide them they'll pop up anyway.



> Yes it's a very sensory approach but I'm called intuitive very often because of it? *I'll be disgusting and admit I played with INFJ like everyone else* because a few people typed me as one (I doubt I'd consider it if it weren't for that) and I thought "uh maybe I am tearing apart the objective image to find the symbolic hidden meaning (which is where I disagree with @angelcat that understanding functions means you will type accurately)? No it's Si-Ne and also with a Ti tinge. I am an Fe sack of crappy feels but I think my Ti is decently developed so I can look unstereotypical? But when injustice is to be had or I am embarrassed it's a lot of Fe and I am very sensory :cheers2:


Literally everyone got Ni dom at some point. xD Screw stereotype descriptions. Those strip function theory of any credibility. Makes it look like "pick your own sing I'm too smart for Zodiac" Zodiac.



> Yes it's a very sensory approach but I'm called intuitive very often because of it?


Pi are both magical from my point of view. I am unable to form such detailed impressions of people. The best I can do are metaphorical caricatures. Even for my closest ones it's easier to describe them as broad characters or archetypes a la tv tropes.


----------



## Bugs

Blue Flare said:


> I think that a problem is that people may paint some functions in a better light than others, misleading anyone that doesn't know the theory in depth. That kind of bias and stereotypes lead to people to refuse to accept their type if it's seen as trash, like with the anti-sensor bias.


Yep , its intuits that usually do this too. We can easily slip into the trap of filling gaps in with bullshit in order for something to make sense to us.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Amaterasu said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> This I agree with.
> 
> And no, I didn't think you were talking about me specifically. But your blanketed comments did relate to me. Specifally with reading to understand. If I don't read to understand, then I am not sire what I am supposed to do lol.
> 
> 
> 
> How many times do you want me to say this...? When I was responding to angelcat, I disagreed with the statement she made. I had no idea WHO that statement was about and it didn't matter to me, because I'm arguing the logic behind the statement. NOT the application of the statement. So it's not about your typing journey, for fuck's sake. Nothing is "blanketed", stop assuming it is.
> 
> As for reading to understand, people can read with the *intention* of understanding, but that doesn't mean they are a) reading the right material or b) understanding it in the way they are supposed to understand it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, yes, this all makes sense. Unless it comes from Jung himself, I think all material shouldn't be taken as gospel (with the theory of Jungian Typology).
> 
> I look at Jung's theory the way I look at the Bible. There i only one objective truth. But everyone will subjectively try to understand it. That still doesn't take away the fact that there is still on one objective truth to it .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some theories do a better job of conveying Jung's message than others. Socionics, for example, is far superior to MBTI in that regard.
Click to expand...

WTF?! I feel like I am being REALLY misunderstood right now.

What the hell are you flippin out on me for. You do not to repeat anything. I understood you the first time. I was explaining how I personally fell under your statement. I made it CLEAR that I knewwww you didn't make it directed to me. Did you not read what I said? Seriously. This has gotten way outta hand, and everything was fine until you came in here like a bat outta hell.

I was simply responding, as everyone else. I also, said I agreed on your last comment. 

Can everybody chill out?


----------



## Bugs

hoopla said:


> So if there is an objective truth then how do we know which sources are objective truths (which is what you were criticizing people for earlier)?


I think some people confuse objective truth with absolute truth. I don't think the latter is coherent. Objective truth is consistency regardless of subjective factors.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Bugs said:


> Yep , its intuits that usually do this too. We can easily slip into the trap of filling gaps in with bullshit in order for something to make sense to us.


This is an usual problem if you're trying to define a function that you don't value, like if someone asks me to explain how Fe works, I will end mentioning the basic definition as I can't understand it well. It's way of working contradicts my own way of dealing with ethics, so I will mention something that looks more like a bad caricature. Same for Si, Ne and Ti as I don't experience them in the same way than someone that values those functions. So I prefer to just show links from sources that are legit, while for the other functions I feel more comfortable describing them in my own terms (like keeping the basic idea but I get how they work too)


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> I look at Jung's theory the way I look at the Bible. There is only one objective truth. But everyone will subjectively try to understand it. That still doesn't take away the fact that there is still on one objective truth to it .


Disagree  He was a human just as rest of us. Just because he started it doesn't mean everything should adhere to his vision of it. Same of any other researchers and scientists that made discoveries - Darwin, Einstein, Freud, fuck ton of others I just snubbed - we keep expanding on their theories, getting new information, getting new ways to prove or contradict initial theories. Maybe we'll get machine that'll be able to actually accurately pick functions in our brains. *shrug* Anyway, everything keeps moving and evolving, nothing should be held in a metaphorical amber.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> P.S- I bet y'all have some weird Irish/Latino accent assigned for me, when you read my posts. You all don't have assigned accents from me. Yet.


Hell I know how'd that sound.  Everything I read sounds in a perfect generalized American accent. With exception of "mate", "oi" and "bollocks".


----------



## Vermillion

SugarPlum said:


> WTF?! I feel like I am being REALLY misunderstood right now.
> 
> What the hell are you flippin out on me for. You do not to repeat anything. I understood you the first time. I was explaining how I personally fell under your statement. I made it CLEAR that I knewwww you didn't make it directed to me. Did you not read what I said? Seriously. This has gotten way outta hand, and everything was fine until you came in here like a bat outta hell.
> 
> I was simply responding, as everyone else. I also, said I agreed on your last comment.
> 
> Can everybody chill out?


You are being understood according to how you frame your sentences. You wanna be disrespectful and assume things are about you -- expect a reply that is intolerant of that bs. Like seriously, "blanketed comments"? _Nothing is blanketed or undisclosed right now. _Everything I said is out in the open.

"everything was fine until you came in here like a bat outta hell"? Learn some courtesy. YOU choose to respond to something unrelated to you, and then YOU find issue with the situation you created. Hilarious. Leave me out of the drama, please.


----------



## Immolate

(Ah, yes. An argument I have nothing to do with.)


----------



## Bugs

> Dang. Then why do some xNFJs have Fe if they don't engage in others?


Because some other factor is influencing them to not engage with people that has nothing do with Jungian typology? Life experience? 
I think typology only theorizes that the potential for xNFJs to be people orientated exists but says nothing if this actually manifests in reality. Further more , according to the theory itself, introverted has nothing to do with being anti-social. Introvert and anti social should be divorced.



> P.S- I bet y'all have some weird Irish/Latino accent assigned for me, when you read my posts. You all don't have assigned accents from me. Yet.


So I guess I'm way off with imagining Kermit the Frog? :abnormal:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Greyhart, i meant under HIS theory, then yeah.. he holds the truth , to HIS theory. It is HIS. lol

Okay, I am done. Exhausted. 

Never meant to ruffle feathers or even debate. I am feeling super uncomfortable now. 

Have a great day everyone.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart I am only familiar with Pearl Jam's older stuff, when grunge was still relevant. I guess I will have to check out their newer material. That was absolutely awesome (and has your name all over it). So dystopian. Almost depicts the evil of industrial revolution in certain aspects (it was good for society don't get me wrong). They should show it in history and science classes for individuals bored with learning.

Did you make the gif yourself? That women is totally you, and what I would attempt to be with failing effort because I am too angelic. She still would make an ideal DC character.


----------



## Bugs

Blue Flare said:


> This is an usual problem if you're trying to define a function that you don't value, like if someone asks me to explain how Fe works, I will end mentioning the basic definition as I can't understand it well. It's way of working contradicts my own way of dealing with ethics, so I will mention something that looks more like a bad caricature.


This is why its important to examine these things impartially and not attach personal bias. I remember talking to someone a while back ago and she was so stuck on being 'Ti' and made it part of her personal _identity_. I was like wth? Lol. I usually do not describe things from a first person personal view but a more detached third person one. Analytical and examining.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> (Ah, yes. An argument I have nothing to do with.)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Amaterasu said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> WTF?! I feel like I am being REALLY misunderstood right now.
> 
> What the hell are you flippin out on me for. You do not to repeat anything. I understood you the first time. I was explaining how I personally fell under your statement. I made it CLEAR that I knewwww you didn't make it directed to me. Did you not read what I said? Seriously. This has gotten way outta hand, and everything was fine until you came in here like a bat outta hell.
> 
> I was simply responding, as everyone else. I also, said I agreed on your last comment.
> 
> Can everybody chill out?
> 
> 
> 
> You are being understood according to how you frame your sentences. You wanna be disrespectful and assume things are about you -- expect a reply that is intolerant of that bs. Like seriously, "blanketed comments"? _Nothing is blanketed or undisclosed right now. _Everything I said is out in the open.
> 
> "everything was fine until you came in here like a bat outta hell"? Learn some courtesy. YOU choose to respond to something unrelated to you, and then YOU find issue with the situation you created. Hilarious. Leave me out of the drama, please.
Click to expand...

I meant "blanketed statement", as in a "general statement". 

Was your statement in general? Yes. 

I told YOU that I related to the statement. Never once said you meant it for ME. I was clear about that.

You expect ME to have COURTESY? For who? YOU?! Sorry, I dont bow down to people that flip out on me, and demand respect.

Bye.


----------



## Max

Bugs said:


> Because some other factor is influencing them to not engage with people that has nothing do with Jungian typology? Life experience?
> I think typology only theorizes that the potential for xNFJs to be people orientated exists but says nothing if this actually manifests in reality. Further more , according to the theory itself, introverted has nothing to do with being anti-social. Introvert and anti social should be divorced.


Yeah, and Fe needs defined as not just a social function, to me. Extroverted feeling is ethical based (ethics from outer sources) , but people calling it being people based always confuses me. And it being related with socializing. And I know, you can be cognitively extroverted, and be a social introvert. And the ironic thing is, most anti-social behavior commited by people is commited in groups, lol. 



> I guess I'm way off with imagining Kermit the Frog? :abnormal:


Dang it, why not The Count? XP He has a cool accent.





Greyhart said:


> Hell I know how'd that sound.  Everything I read sounds in a perfect generalized American accent. With exception of "mate", "oi" and "bollocks".


Oi mate, I got hit in the bollocks ;D So, even if an Asian person typed that, you would imagine it in an Aussie accent? 

Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> (Ah, yes. An argument I have nothing to do with.)



*glare*

I hatttte arguing.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@SugarPlum



> I say this with respect. BUT, what exactly makes you the expert. If you dont read to understand, do you have some kind of magical fairy dust? One that causes understanding to just... come upon you?





> All sources of information are just that. Sources. This is TECHNICALLY all theory anyway. So why get so dogmatic about it. ]


Though you *did* say



> How does ANYBODY know which sources are correct and which aren't? Some may only be half correct. But unless you get the information from Jung himself, then all info you gather can be incorrect.


So I apologize if I misinterpreted.

No one is really "arguing," at least not in a tyrannical sense. It's meant to be intellectual and civil. I think you're taking it more personally than intended.


----------



## Bugs

Common guys , let's leave the feelings in the feelings locker. No reason for shit to get personal :boxing:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Bugs said:


> This is why its important to examine these things impartially and not attach personal bias. I remember talking to someone a while back ago and she was so stuck on being 'Ti' and made it part of her personal _identity_. I was like wth? Lol. I usually do not describe things from a first person personal view but a more detached third person one. Analytical and examining.


Oh man, that sounds annoying. I know that cognitive functions are filters and they're key for knowing how you understand the world, but a person is defined by more variables. Overblowing the predictive power of a system will backfire badly, as you can't explain everything under a limited framework. I can't avoid to add my own personal bias to stuff as I'm an introvert, but I try to not make value judgements that can taint something that I'm explaining from a detached standpoint. This is why I prefer to not describe functions that I don't grasp, as I will probably write ideas that don't make justice to the function as a whole.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


>


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> @Greyhart I am only familiar with Pearl Jam's older stuff, when grunge was still relevant. I guess I will have to check out their newer material. That was absolutely awesome (and has your name all over it). So dystopian. Almost depicts the evil of industrial revolution in certain aspects (it was good for society don't get me wrong). They should show it in history and science classes for individuals bored with learning.





> The animated music video for "Do the Evolution" was co-directed by Kevin Altieri, known for his direction on Batman: The Animated Series, and Todd McFarlane, better known for his work with the popular comic book Spawn and Korn's 1999 "Freak on a Leash" video.


So you weren't off with the comics-related. I remember seeing it as a kid, it is just as fantastic now.



> Did you make the gif yourself? That women is totally you, and what I would attempt to be with failing effort because I am too angelic. She still would make an ideal DC character.


I looked around my Photoshop folders and apparently I used to have patience for making gifs. Yeah, IIRC I couldn't find a good gifs for that part of the video. The whole video should be gifed more. :\

She reminds of Death from Sandman









Though that one has a somber and... chill attitude.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Wow.


----------



## Bugs

> Yeah, and Fe needs defined as not just a social function, to me. Extroverted feeling is ethical based (ethics from outer sources) , but people calling it being people based always confuses me. And it being related with socializing. And I know, you can be cognitively extroverted, and be a social introvert. And the ironic thing is, most anti-social behavior commited by people is commited in groups, lol.


Many real life factors can influence how comfortable people are in social situations. It's way beyond the narrow scope of typology. 





> Dang it, why not The Count? XP He has a cool accent.


Sorry man , I was getting a Muppets vibe.


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


>


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> Many real life factors can influence how comfortable people are in social situations. It's way beyond the narrow scope of typology.


It's always disappointing when someone argues so-and-so is an ass because of this-or-that function.

[Edit] Thank you for introducing me to the Picard Song :emmersed:


----------



## Greyhart

I still associate extroversion with an overall level of engagement than just "talking to people" related. :\



Blue Flare said:


> Oh man, that sounds annoying. I know that cognitive functions are filters and they're key for knowing how you understand the world, but a person is defined by more variables. Overblowing the predictive power of a system will backfire badly, as you can't explain everything under a limited framework. I can't avoid to add my own personal bias to stuff as I'm an introvert, but I try to not make value judgements that can taint something that I'm explaining from a detached standpoint. *This is why I prefer to not describe functions that I don't grasp, as I will probably write ideas that don't make justice to the function as a whole.*


I think it's possible but after a long time of formulating the idea/image of this function in your mind. I don't trust myself to accurately describe even the ones I use - like Si. 



Bugs said:


> This is why its important to examine these things impartially and not attach personal bias. I remember talking to someone a while back ago and she was so stuck on being 'Ti' and made it part of her personal _identity_. I was like wth? Lol. I usually do not describe things from a first person personal view but a more detached third person one. Analytical and examining.


Owww. I think I do a lot of subjective bias. Especially when typing by questionnaire since I tend to run through it skipping parts I find irrelevant. >_<


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> It's always disappointing when someone argues so-and-so is an ass because of this-or-that function.


At least ad hominem attacks loose all credibility, making their arguments unsound.


----------



## Vermillion

SugarPlum said:


> I told YOU that I related to the statement. Never once said you meant it for ME. I was clear about that.
> 
> You expect ME to have COURTESY? For who? YOU?! Sorry, I dont bow down to people that flip out on me, and demand respect.
> 
> Bye.


I'm sure you were absolutely clear about your intentions when you quoted my posts, responded disrespectfully, and progressed to name-calling. Basically you walked in, created an argument, got displeased by your own argument and left because you think you're being treated unfairly.

You're making no sense at all. I don't have patience for these reactive spurts and I will not be responding further to any more nonsense of this kind.

You may go ahead and make stuff up about the context some more, if you wish. It's getting boring watching you try to claw at my throat.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Hoopla. ..? Quoting my words, to prove...? What?

Besides being sarcastic with (I don't know her name). . Where did I criticize? What point it exactly you're trying to make?

Sorry, this shit has gotten personal. Please don't tell me its my fault for taking offense. Really?


----------



## 68097

I'm sorry if I've any way contributed to the angst in this thread.

Often, I make offhanded statements that later are proven to be faulty. I really ought to learn at some point not to do this, but it's hard not to. 

(To assist, perhaps, in the ongoing "could I be Fe?" debate...)

@SugarPlum: the best way I can describe Fe in myself is that I deviate from self, to other people first, if I am around them -- and sometimes when I am not. I have done this since childhood. It was never "How do I feel about what is happening in this movie?" but "What would MOM think about what is happening in this movie?" I make a good "moral watchdog" movie reviewer, because I pick up on anything that might offend anyone and ensure it is mentioned in the review, whether or not it offended me. I'm objective in that way -- I can spot offensive things, regardless if they offend me, and whether I am offended or not is an afterthought for me.

I also find it very difficult not to mirror emotions -- real or imagined, in people or objects or on the screen. Someone cries in a movie, I cry with them -- even if they were the villain for five seasons and I hate their guts. My Fe gets all tangled up in THEIR emotions. I barely knew a guy who died at our church a few years ago; but when I heard of his death, I sat down and cried -- because I imagined how his wife felt, and how my brother would feel, because this was one of the few people at church who went out of their way to talk to my brother. So, he kind of lost one of his only friends. A superficial friend, sure, but ... I could not disengage emotionally. I often can't. But the feelings are not my own, not really. Often, if I am alone and have nothing to focus on emotionally, I feel nothing -- and I actually thought for awhile that maybe I was a sociopath or something because of it. But no, I'm just Fe. Away from an object to focus on emotionally, there is a void that I seek to fill with specifically emotional things. That's why I'm so pulled toward melodrama, toward grand sweeping emotional arcs, toward FEELINGS splashed all over the screen. To betrayal, hard choices, conflict, even depressing things -- because therein may I find EMOTION... to channel, to ponder, to pull apart, to analyze, to FEEL.

I can't speak for Fi-types. I can't say how much it crosses over, but that's how it works for me. 

Regarding I/E ... I spend most of my time in my head, detached from my environment and other people, just... thinking instead of doing. Pondering. Dreaming. Creating inner worlds. Approaching life with deliberation, not engaging until I'm ready.


----------



## Max

Bugs said:


> Many real life factors can influence how comfortable people are in social situations. It's way beyond the narrow scope of typology.
> 
> Sorry man , I was getting a Muppets vibe.


True, typology doesn't take into account anything other than our functions. It doesn't care if you have PTSD, GAD or mental illnesses etc. That is up to the individual to account for these matters when they are typing. Is that fair to say? 

Muppets? Beats Tweenies anyday ;D


Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bugs

Blue Flare said:


> This is why I prefer to not describe functions that I don't grasp, as I will probably write ideas that don't make justice to the function as a whole.


It's all good as long as you don't claim to be absolutely correct and act to the fool with pride.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> It's always disappointing when someone argues so-and-so is an ass because of this-or-that function.





hoopla said:


> At least ad hominem attacks loose all credibility, making their arguments unsound.


I'd say the worst is when behavior like "I cry sometimes" or "I get angry" or "I can make pragmatic decisions" are brought up. I did it too! It's because it's easier to see and interpret your (and others') _visible behavior_ than dig out all of your issues.


----------



## Vermillion

hoopla said:


> I also agree that Naomi Quenk was very off in many interpretations. She struck me as so right but after learning more (especially Jungian descriptions) I believe she was profound when correct and on the highway to Hell when wrong.


This is spot on. 



Curiphant said:


> What do you think Se is by the way ><


I actually had written my own definition of it once and I can't find it now :/ To cut it short, I think Se is the objective and expansive perception of the tangible world. As the function rises up in the stacking, so does the individual's competency (in the following area; I don't mean competency in general) and desire to handle, experience and shape this world by means of direct action and force of will.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Greyhart said:


> I still associate extroversion with an overall level of engagement than just "talking to people" related. :\
> 
> 
> I think it's possible but after a long time of formulating the idea/image of this function in your mind. I don't trust myself to accurately describe even the ones I use - like Si.


That's why people think that they may be introverts despite having an extroverted dominant function. The mess that's social extroversion and introversion is really misleading.

Yeah, I also try to check what the functions have in common, like Pi, Je, Ji and Pe as those patterns can help me to understand the functions that I don't use. Makes sense with the inferior, like I can describe Se but probably it won't be nuanced enough compared to the description written by a Se dom.


----------



## orbit

The way I'm dealing with functions is contrasting their descriptions to my behaviors or others. I'm using functions more like a leap frog for the moment as a way to explore people's behaviors because I don't understand functions on a deep level. It's like I have something to build off of and respond to. The actual exploring and examination of behaviors is more important to than finding out what the actual function/type is. 
Like before, I might have been like, "How do I describe my cat?" But now I'm like "His constant meowing and friendliness indicate that his values do not come from the inner self." 

I'm bastardizing the theory but oh well.


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> It's always disappointing when someone argues so-and-so is an ass because of this-or-that function.
> 
> [Edit] Thank you for introducing me to the Picard Song :emmersed:


Ever wonder how Picard would argue typology? :whoa:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Amaterasu said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I told YOU that I related to the statement. Never once said you meant it for ME. I was clear about that.
> 
> You expect ME to have COURTESY? For who? YOU?! Sorry, I dont bow down to people that flip out on me, and demand respect.
> 
> Bye.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you were absolutely clear about your intentions when you quoted my posts, responded disrespectfully, and progressed to name-calling. Basically you walked in, created an argument, got displeased by your own argument and left because you think you're being treated unfairly.
> 
> You're making no sense at all. I don't have patience for these reactive spurts and I will not be responding further to any more nonsense of this kind.
Click to expand...

You came here quoting angelcat, and questioning her in a very aggressive tone. I was a part of this, BECAUSE the comment you were questioning of hers was in regards to me. I was the one she was referring to. Therefore, I think I had a right to speak. I used sarcasm, in the very first statement to you. No name calling. I wasn't looking for a fight.

Go back and read through it all in context.

This is crazy to me. You flipped the fuck out, and suddenly, I am being shit on.

Whatever. I got kids to play with and a husband who is getting hungry. 

Bye.


----------



## Bugs

Greyhart said:


> Owww. I think I do a lot of subjective bias. Especially when typing by questionnaire since I tend to run through it skipping parts I find irrelevant. >_<


Indeed. I just skip over the parts I find boring. :ambivalence:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> Hoopla. ..? Quoting my words, to prove...? What?
> 
> Besides being sarcastic with (I don't know her name). . Where did I criticize? What point it exactly you're trying to make?
> 
> Sorry, this shit has gotten personal. Please don't tell me its my fault for taking offense. Really?


To show where I was coming from. Criticism was the wrong word, but your last statement seemed logically inconsistent to me. I quoted the last bit in order to show that I may have been misinterpreting that very logical inconsistency.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> I also agree that Naomi Quenk was very off in many interpretations. She struck me as so right but after learning more (especially Jungian descriptions) *I believe she was profound when correct and on the highway to Hell when wrong.*


That is true for everything I've seen so far. 



Amaterasu said:


> I actually had written my own definition of it once and I can't find it now :/ To cut it short, I think Se is the objective and expansive perception of the tangible world. As the function rises up in the stacking, so does the individual's competency (in the following area; I don't mean competency in general) and desire to handle, experience and shape this world by means of direct action and force of will.


YES. My meager image of Se correlates with short description of Se dom. Success!



Curiphant said:


> The way I'm dealing with functions is contrasting their descriptions to my behaviors or others. I'm using functions more like a leap frog for the moment as a way to explore people's behaviors because I don't understand functions on a deep level. It's like I have something to build off of and respond to. The actual exploring and examination of behaviors is more important to than finding out what the actual function/type is.
> Like before, I might have been like, "How do I describe my cat?" But now I'm like "His constant meowing and friendliness indicate that his values do not come from the inner self."
> 
> I'm bastardizing the theory but oh well.


It's a solid base


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> Ever wonder how Picard would argue typology? :whoa:


 :glee:


----------



## orbit

Amaterasu said:


> This is spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually had written my own definition of it once and I can't find it now :/ To cut it short, I think Se is the objective and expansive perception of the tangible world. As the function rises up in the stacking, so does the individual's competency (in the following area; I don't mean competency in general) and desire to handle, experience and shape this world by means of direct action and force of will.


Thank you ^^ This makes sense in my head at the moment (but in like a week, I'll lose it because I'll think of a question and then I'll misunderstand again =/)

It sounds like the function with the most clarity, albeit with the cost of less filters.


----------



## Barakiel

Jesus, how did this thread turn into the MAL forums. :dry:


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> I'm sorry if I've any way contributed to the angst in this thread.
> 
> Often, I make offhanded statements that later are proven to be faulty. I really ought to learn at some point not to do this, but it's hard not to.
> 
> (To assist, perhaps, in the ongoing "could I be Fe?" debate...)
> 
> @SugarPlum: the best way I can describe Fe in myself is that I deviate from self, to other people first, if I am around them -- and sometimes when I am not. I have done this since childhood. It was never "How do I feel about what is happening in this movie?" but "What would MOM think about what is happening in this movie?" I make a good "moral watchdog" movie reviewer, because I pick up on anything that might offend anyone and ensure it is mentioned in the review, whether or not it offended me. I'm objective in that way -- I can spot offensive things, regardless if they offend me, and whether I am offended or not is an afterthought for me.
> 
> I also find it very difficult not to mirror emotions -- real or imagined, in people or objects or on the screen. Someone cries in a movie, I cry with them -- even if they were the villain for five seasons and I hate their guts. My Fe gets all tangled up in THEIR emotions. I barely knew a guy who died at our church a few years ago; but when I heard of his death, I sat down and cried -- because I imagined how his wife felt, and how my brother would feel, because this was one of the few people at church who went out of their way to talk to my brother. So, he kind of lost one of his only friends. A superficial friend, sure, but ... I could not disengage emotionally. I often can't. But the feelings are not my own, not really. Often, if I am alone and have nothing to focus on emotionally, I feel nothing -- and I actually thought for awhile that maybe I was a sociopath or something because of it. But no, I'm just Fe. Away from an object to focus on emotionally, there is a void that I seek to fill with specifically emotional things. That's why I'm so pulled toward melodrama, toward grand sweeping emotional arcs, toward FEELINGS splashed all over the screen. To betrayal, hard choices, conflict, even depressing things -- because therein may I find EMOTION... to channel, to ponder, to pull apart, to analyze, to FEEL.
> 
> I can't speak for Fi-types. I can't say how much it crosses over, but that's how it works for me.
> 
> Regarding I/E ... I spend most of my time in my head, detached from my environment and other people, just... thinking instead of doing. Pondering. Dreaming. Creating inner worlds. Approaching life with deliberation, not engaging until I'm ready.


Thank you for explaining it from your perspective. I think I understand quite well what Fe is like. You have helped a lot. Here, your blog, and your patience. So thank you.


----------



## orbit

Blue Flare said:


> That's why people think that they may be introverts despite having an extroverted dominant function. The mess that's social extroversion and introversion is really misleading.
> 
> Yeah, I also try to check what the functions have in common, like Pi, Je, Ji and Pe as those patterns can help me to understand the functions that I don't use. Makes sense with the inferior, like I can describe Se but probably it won't be nuanced enough compared to the description written by a Se dom.


Come to think of it, I've fallen into that trap of social E/I. 

I should still consider Se-dom though.


----------



## Vermillion

Curiphant said:


> Thank you ^^ This makes sense in my head at the moment (but in like a week, I'll lose it because I'll think of a question and then I'll misunderstand again =/)
> 
> It sounds like the function with the most clarity, albeit with the cost of less filters.


Depends on what aspect of information the "clarity" is about. Ni-doms can have stupendous clarity about the flow of events through time, Ne-doms can see something's/someone's potential very clearly... etc.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> You came i here quoting angelcat, and questioning her in. Very aggressive tone. I was a part of this, BECAUSE the comment you were questioning of hers was in regards to me. I was the she, she was referring to. Therefore, I think I had a right to speak. I used sarcasm, in the very first statement to you. No name calling. I wasn't looking for a fight.
> 
> Go back and read through it all in context.
> 
> This is crazy to me. You flipped the fuck out, and suddenly, I am being shit on.
> 
> Whatever. I got kids to play with and a husband who is getting hungry.
> 
> Bye.


She did not "flip the fuck out". She was logically debating and rebuttaling your arguments fairly. She was not claiming to be correct, and any corrections would have been fine by her; that is the point of a debate- arguing for a position with sound logic and reasoning. You did have a right to speak, and she never intended to put a cap on your words. She was arguing your logic, not objective value statements like tone or aggression, which is what you've seem to have been doing the whole time. That does not negate your points, but it does clear up the clash. You missed the point of what she was trying to do.

I don't want an argument either; at least nothing fiery. Just something fair. 

As for Naomi Quenk I think her biggest mistake was conflating function disvalues with inferior functions. I can relate to her description of inferior Se to an eerie degree... because much of it is Se *disvalue* rather than Se inferior. People still value their inferior, but it's used immaturely when too separated from their dominate function.


----------



## orbit

Amaterasu said:


> Depends on what aspect of information the "clarity" is about. Ni-doms can have stupendous clarity about the flow of events through time, Ne-doms can see something's/someone's potential very clearly... etc.


I stand corrected. ^^

I suppose I meant with the objects around them.


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> :glee:


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> I stand corrected. ^^
> 
> I suppose I meant with the objects around them.


Well, as far as Se goes, for me personally, it's more of an experience based function, whereas Ni devalues experiences in favor of forward thinking, seeing things in their forward state, if that makes any sense. Of course, it's a very basic definition, but it's what I understand Se and Ni as. :happy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hoopla. ..? Quoting my words, to prove...? What?
> 
> Besides being sarcastic with (I don't know her name). . Where did I criticize? What point it exactly you're trying to make?
> 
> Sorry, this shit has gotten personal. Please don't tell me its my fault for taking offense. Really?
> 
> 
> 
> To show where I was coming from. Criticism was the wrong word, but your last statement seemed logically inconsistent to me. I quoted the last bit in order to show that I may have been misinterpreting that very logical inconsistency.
Click to expand...

I am lost at this point. I never disagreed with you. I never had inconsistencies in what I was saying.

IDK. 

Maybe it's playing the victim, but whatever. My feelings are extremely hurt right now. Yes you guys are on the flippin internet, but
I still just feel attacked. I have been feeling misunderstood for awhile now, but because nobody has been down right mean, I've moved past it. But today? WTF? 

I had sarcasm to one aggressive person, and WHholy shit. She was having a self righteous attitude, like she is the only one that knew anything, so my sarcasm was a friendly way of saying "chill".

I need to work on that, because others may not get my humor behind it.

but the fact is, I was talked down by her badly. "How many times do i have to say this to you". Seriously. Then you started in with the quoting for something I wasn't even grasping. Shit the whole thing started because of a comment angelcat said to me. 

I felt very attacked. Maybe i wasn't. Maybe I'm a big baby. Maybe I'm weak. 

But it doesn't take away the sting I am feeling right now.

Taking another break. This stuff is not supposed to be like this. 

Bye guys.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


> The way I'm dealing with functions is contrasting their descriptions to my behaviors or others. I'm using functions more like a leap frog for the moment as a way to explore people's behaviors because I don't understand functions on a deep level. It's like I have something to build off of and respond to. The actual exploring and examination of behaviors is more important to than finding out what the actual function/type is.
> Like before, I might have been like, "How do I describe my cat?" But now I'm like "His constant meowing and friendliness indicate that his values do not come from the inner self."
> 
> I'm bastardizing the theory but oh well.


Actually that is an excellent thing. Se types are often great typists because they are very objective and broad. You were describing an Si way of determining functions and Si can be very wrong and biased. Your methods are fine so don't sweat it.

This is the great thing about typing; lots of alternate interpretations so we can weed out the crap and determine the truth. As long as you are using the proper definitions of whichever system or theory you are so inclined to use, you are not wrong.


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Well, as far as Se goes, for me personally, it's more of an experience based function, whereas Ni devalues experiences in favor of forward thinking, seeing things in their forward state, if that makes any sense. Of course, it's a very basic definition, but it's what I understand Se and Ni as. :happy:


Experiencing the external world/objects? 

Hm. Isn't Si also an experience base function?


----------



## Bugs

hoopla said:


> Actually that is an excellent thing. Se types are often great typists because they are very objective and broad


I agree that, in theory ,Se types have this shit down. But Se's are not very broad but intensely focused. Se types use Ni to expand observations broadly subjectively. Ne's are objectively broad but use subjective Si to bring things into focus. Se's focus on what actually _is_. This is useful for objectively looking at people.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


> That is true for everything I've seen so far.
> 
> 
> YES. My meager image of Se correlates with short description of Se dom. Success!
> 
> 
> It's a solid base


I knew it would happen one day, IT DID.


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> Experiencing the external world/objects?
> 
> Hm. Isn't Si also an experience base function?


Se puts more cognitive energy in experiencing things in real time rather than reflecting on their impressions of the experience (Si). Think of a photographer taking pictures and then developing the pictures. Se's enjoy the real time experience of taking pictures while Si's enjoy developing the pics and analyzing them or putting in an album or something like that.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Experiencing the external world/objects?
> 
> Hm. Isn't Si also an experience base function?


Yeah, but it's more internal based, it values each experience beyond the lifespan of each experience, it's why Si is said to be more tradition based, even though it sometimes isn't, because they have a connection to certain things, if that makes any sense. For instance, I personally listen to the same music tracks over and over again, as an Si user would, but I do it to experience the same thing over and over, it's sort of like an addiction, whereas an Si user would do it because it's already been ingrained in them. Then again, since I don't have Si, this is all a theoretical grasp of the differences, so I could be wrong. @hoopla may be able to help with Si, though.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> Actually that is an excellent thing. Se types are often great typists because they are very objective and broad. You were describing an Si way of determining functions and Si can be very wrong and biased. Your methods are fine so don't sweat it.
> 
> This is the great thing about typing; lots of alternate interpretations so we can weed out the crap and determine the truth. As long as you are using the proper definitions of whichever system or theory you are so inclined to use, you are not wrong.


Ah, I'm stupid, but what was the Si way of determining functions? I thought I only mentioned my own method, whoops. But thank you for the reassurance. 

Discovering the proper definitions is hard though D8

My method is also very bad for predicting people's behaviors because it doesn't allow extrapolation.


----------



## Persephone Soul

.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> I am lost at this point. I never disagreed with you. I never had inconsistencies in what I was saying.
> 
> IDK.
> 
> Maybe it's playing the victim, but whatever. My feelings are extremely hurt right now. Yes you guys are on the flippin internet, but
> I still just feel attacked. I have been feeling misunderstood for awhile now, but because nobody has been down right mean, I've moved past it. But today? WTF?
> 
> I had sarcasm to one aggressive person, and WHholy shit. She was having a self righteous attitude, like she is the only one that knew anything, so my sarcasm was a friendly way of saying "chill".
> 
> I need to work on that, because others may not get my humor behind it.
> 
> but the fact is, I was talked down by her badly. "How many times do i have to say this to you". Seriously. Then you stared in with the quoting for something I wasn't even grasping. Shit the whole thing started because of a comment angelcat said to me.
> 
> I felt very attacked. Maybe i wasn't. Maybe I'm a big baby. Maybe I'm weak.
> 
> But it doesn't take away the sting I am feeling right now.
> 
> Taking another break. This stuff is not supposed to be like this.
> 
> Bye guys.


Eh, I think you're an idiot for letting this get to you, simply deal with the aftermath, and move on. :happy:

And if you're sure enough in yourself to feel that there are no inconsistencies in what you're saying, there probably are, that's how reality works. And I'm speaking from experience here. :dry: And really, "how many times do I have to say this to you", perhaps you're asking the same question too many times, hoping for different results? This is all just guessing, after all, since I'm not an insomniac who can stay up all night listening to you guys, fun as it may be. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

NobleRaven said:


> I knew it would happen one day, IT DID.


u must be Ni dom

last few pages are fascinating









it's 4 am i should sleep


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> I am lost at this point. I never disagreed with you. I never had inconsistencies in what I was saying.
> 
> IDK.
> 
> Maybe it's playing the victim, but whatever. My feelings are extremely hurt right now. Yes you guys are on the flippin internet, but
> I still just feel attacked. I have been feeling misunderstood for awhile now, but because nobody has been down right mean, I've moved past it. But today? WTF?
> 
> I had sarcasm to one aggressive person, and WHholy shit. She was having a self righteous attitude, like she is the only one that knew anything, so my sarcasm was a friendly way of saying "chill".
> 
> I need to work on that, because others may not get my humor behind it.
> 
> but the fact is, I was talked down by her badly. "How many times do i have to say this to you". Seriously. Then you started in with the quoting for something I wasn't even grasping. Shit the whole thing started because of a comment angelcat said to me.
> 
> I felt very attacked. Maybe i wasn't. Maybe I'm a big baby. Maybe I'm weak.
> 
> But it doesn't take away the sting I am feeling right now.
> 
> Taking another break. This stuff is not supposed to be like this.
> 
> Bye guys.


You are, again, missing the point of a debate. You are focusing on objective value judgments and pathos rather than logos (e.g. She was aggressive; you disagree with me; she is self righteous; I want you to chill). That will result in quibbling rather than a civil discussion of the very answers you seek. Humor is a poor way to argue, as it is pathos, and not a logical standpoint. I do not think you are weak. I just think you two are arguing from very different angles.

Yes, she did get frustrated, and I don't believe that was a proper way to debate either, but you were missing the crux of what she was getting at and interpreting it emotionally rather than logically, so I can at least understand where she lost her cool.

It was not @angelcat's fault. No one had to reply to her, nor did anyone have to engage in her points in the way that they have been. Don't use her as a scapegoat; she wasn't remotely involved with this.

I didn't imply that you disagreed with me. The disagreement was not even the point. You have yet to explain how you were not logically inconsistent; I even provided a quote to show that I may be seeing logical inconsistences where there may have been none.

I am sorry you are feeling attacked, but most of this was not personal (until towards the end). You simply interpreted it that way.
@Curiphant the cat meowing example.

Also you aren't giving yourself enough credit. At the very least, you inquire when you are uncertain, which shows intellectual honesty.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Greyhart said:


> u must be Ni dom
> 
> last few pages are fascinating
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it's 4 am i should sleep


Aren't we all Ni doms? It's quite an exuberant trend and fascinating way of snowflaking oneself.


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> I agree that, in theory ,Se types have this shit down. But Se's are not very broad but intensely focused. Se types use Ni to expand observations broadly subjectively. Ne's are objectively broad but use subjective Si to bring things into focus. Se's focus on what actually _is_. This is useful for objectively looking at people.


What _is_ "is"? (Sorry I just saw a chance to be existential and I took it). 



Bugs said:


> Se puts more cognitive energy in experiencing things in real time rather than reflecting on their impressions of the experience (Si). Think of a photographer taking pictures and then developing the pictures. Se's enjoy the real time experience of taking pictures while Si's enjoy developing the pics and analyzing them or putting in an album or something like that.


I like that metaphor quite a bit. It's very clear. 

Hey Shiny! Do you enjoy developing pics or taking them more?



Barakiel said:


> Yeah, but it's more internal based, it values each experience beyond the lifespan of each experience, it's why Si is said to be more tradition based, even though it sometimes isn't, because they have a connection to certain things, if that makes any sense. For instance, I personally listen to the same music tracks over and over again, as an Si user would, but I do it to experience the same thing over and over, it's sort of like an addiction, whereas an Si user would do it because it's already been ingrained in them. Then again, since I don't have Si, this is all a theoretical grasp of the differences, so I could be wrong. @hoopla may be able to help with Si, though.


From what I gather from you, Si is more like they take pieces of reality (let's call them bricks) and build their own world inside of their heads using bricks of their own experiences? And like any construction worker they want similar bricks?

And Se doesn't mind what the bricks are as long as they are interesting?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Hey Shiny! Do you enjoy developing pics or taking them more?


I knew it would come back to me uffer:


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> Aren't we all Ni doms? It's quite an exuberant trend and fascinating way of snowflaking oneself.


I never got typed as Ni-dom or INFJ or INTJ 8D

I am such a snowflake, I avoided the snowflake trend.



shinynotshiny said:


> I knew it would come back to me uffer:


You are under attack. 

youknewitwascomingthismeansNi.

Prediction powers obviously mean Ni.


----------



## Max

Ni overwhelms the hell out of me. 

Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> :glee:











@Oswin I like the short hair! But I like the longer hair too.


----------



## Barakiel

curiphant said:


> you are under attack.
> 
> Youknewitwascomingthismeansni.
> 
> Prediction powers obviously mean ni.


Why of course, Ni is life. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> I've lost thread of conversation. @Oswin doesn't relate to Fe dom at all?


Oswin does relate to Fe-dom but is unsure of perceiving axis)


----------



## Persephone Soul

OMG! IS NOTHING I AM SAYING BEING UNDERSTOOD?

I DID NOT BLAME ANGELCAT. Omg, I was feeling GUILTY because I WAS THE REASON this whole thing started. If it wasn't for MY confusion on the Fe vs Fi for myself thing, then angelcat would have not have put that statement up for me. Thennn, that (sorry dont know her name) woman, would not have questioned it. I felt personally responsible for angelcat being questioned .

And Barakiel, yeah, I was asking any questions to her lol. It was completely her misunderstanding of a term I used that led to her saying that to me.


----------



## AdInfinitum

Curiphant said:


> I never got typed as Ni-dom or INFJ or INTJ 8D
> 
> I am such a snowflake, I avoided the snowflake trend.
> 
> 
> 
> You are under attack.
> 
> youknewitwascomingthismeansNi.
> 
> Prediction powers obviously mean Ni.


Please, Curi, proceed into re-doing your test and function analysis until the results knock on the realm of Ni. WE NEED TO BE NI BECAUSE NI IS MAGICAL, ok? Ok.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> I like that metaphor quite a bit. It's very clear.
> 
> Hey Shiny! Do you enjoy developing pics or taking them more?


Well, to add my answer, I certainly like taking pictures more, the different angles, the different lighting, it's really quite awesome. :laughing:



Curiphant said:


> From what I gather from you, Si is more like they take pieces of reality (let's call them bricks) and build their own world inside of their heads using bricks of their own experiences? And like any construction worker they want similar bricks?
> 
> And Se doesn't mind what the bricks are as long as they are interesting?


Mostly, although I would also say that Si can say which brick is which with more certainty, whereas Se, at least Se and Fi, as I understand is, is more focused on what the experiences give them in terms of emotion. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> P.S- I bet y'all have some weird Irish/Latino accent assigned for me, when you read my posts. You all don't have assigned accents from me. Yet.


Actually YES. Is that accurate?
(I mean...I read all posts in my post-reading voice but...yeah)


----------



## fair phantom

I am so close to posting a Frozen gif right now.


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> What _is_ "is"? (Sorry I just saw a chance to be existential and I took it).


What is without mental manipulation such as Ne does. Seeing something as it exists in the here and now and not what its potential is.


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> Please, Curi, proceed into re-doing your test and function analysis until the results knock on the realm of Ni. WE NEED TO BE NI BECAUSE NI IS MAGICAL, ok? Ok.


Okay guise. 

Do I come up with relevant yet random conclusions out of nowhere? No, but let's pretend that I predict that Greyhart will admit she's Marceline the Vampire Queen with her love of red things like cherries and then everyone will shocked and realize that they're all show characters. 

Do I like thinking about the future and with a magical goal in mind? Not really, but let's pretend that I know how I'm going to be the President of the UN. 

Do I look at something and feel the core of it? No but let's pretend I know that orange really represents the sound of limbs crushing under the weight of the ocean. 

I AM NI. 

I butchered this.



Bugs said:


> What is without mental manipulation such as Ne does. Seeing something as it exists in the here and now and not what its potential is.


Ah you misunderstood me. I meant as a joke to ask what reality was. Like what is here and now?



You know if everyone was N dominants, the world would be very… interesting.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, but it's more internal based, it values each experience beyond the lifespan of each experience, it's why Si is said to be more tradition based, even though it sometimes isn't, because they have a connection to certain things, if that makes any sense. For instance, I personally listen to the same music tracks over and over again, as an Si user would, but I do it to experience the same thing over and over, it's sort of like an addiction, whereas an Si user would do it because it's already been ingrained in them. Then again, since I don't have Si, this is all a theoretical grasp of the differences, so I could be wrong. @hoopla may be able to help with Si, though.


Reliving a past experience and playing songs on repeat is... really not Si imo.

Se is objective and expansive; Si is subjective and narrow. I honestly envy you motherfuckers. 

Se sort of soaks and absorbs life and Si filters it out. Si can be quite idealistic- everything is so fantastic, and then when that awesome thing rejects Si's narrow view of the world, it's absolutely horrific. Jung described this very well, and few people discuss this aspect of Si. 

So memories for Se are kind of just how things were, and if they were fun and engaging, sure they can experience them again, especially if they can play them out objectively and expand on them. Si is just more personal. Things are very very deep for Si, and if that deepness is rejected, Si turns ugly. Se doesn't really care. Se just eats everything up, and eventually gets bored when life is not full enough. Si sees richness in personal detail, and anything thrown in their face can be rejected until it finally is accepted into their library of what life is (for me, iPhones and hit songs on the radio).


----------



## Persephone Soul

I was I guess protecting angelcat... in a weird way. Maybe she didnt need protecting ( I think thats clear). I just felt personally responsible for her being questioned.

I guess on the flip side to all these, I can kinda see the Fe in me! LOL


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> OMG! IS NOTHING I AM SAYING BEING UNDERSTOOD?
> 
> I DID NOT BLAME ANGELCAT. Omg, I was feeling GUILTY because I WAS THE REASON this whole thing started. If it wasn't for MY confusion on the Fe vs Fi for myself thing, then angelcat would have not have put that statement up for me. Thennn, that (sorry dont know her name) woman, would not have questioned it. I felt personally responsible for angelcat being questioned .
> 
> And Barakiel, yeah, I was asking any questions to her lol. It was completely her misunderstanding of a term I used that led to her saying that to me.


It seems we all value @angelcat's insights a little too much. :wink:

And I wouldn't feel guilty about causing strife, it's quite exhilirating. :laughing: Well, in that case, @Amaterasu, want to share your view? :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> Then limbs being crushed in the ocean has some meaning. Freaking crazy Ni's


Can you explain this to me.

If, for example, someone relates a friend to a sea shell, does the sea shell signify something? Does it have a meaning? Does the Ni user know the meaning?


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> As Ni its not really that you care about what the connections are themselves but rather what their _meaning_ to you (the subject) is. Confused yet?  Ne puts more focus on the connections for their own sake and less focus on some meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> Establishing goals isn't Ni related because that implies you already have the knowledge. Ni searches for knowledge via meaning. Establishing goals is related to J functions.
> 
> 
> 
> Then limbs being crushed in the ocean has some meaning. Freaking crazy Ni's
> 
> 
> Me2 :th_blush:


So it's more a personalized meaning? 

Also, aren't all Ni dom and Ni-auxilaries J? I was mimicking Ni dom and auxiliaries. 

Doesn't everything have meaning kind of? Like what do you mean by meaning? I think I'm getting it but I'm not


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> So it's more a personalized meaning?
> 
> Also, aren't all Ni dom and Ni-auxilaries J? I was mimicking Ni dom and auxiliaries.
> 
> Doesn't everything have meaning kind of? Like what do you mean by meaning? I think I'm getting it but I'm not


There was something I said to @Oswin on this very subject, though damn if I'm going to be able to find it. :dry:

ETA: No, wait, found it.



Barakiel said:


> The difference is that Ne gets swarmed by many possibilities, for better or worse, whereas Ni focuses on one, for better or for worse. Think the difference between experiencing multiple things at once, and having a deep obsession grow and fester. Ni looks upon specific things and says they're more meaningful than others, and Ne rebutts with the idea that another thing may have more meaning than that. Does that make sense?


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> ): I wish that's what you meant.
> 
> What did you mean?


I'm trying my best not to poke and prod you for Si arguments (my previous answers/Atwood's poem).


:witch:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Bugs said:


> As Ni its not really that you care about what the connections are themselves but rather what their _meaning_ to you (the subject) is. Confused yet?  Ne puts more focus on the connections for their own sake and less focus on some meaning.


Actually I would argue that meaning, symbolism and representation is N in general, as it disvalues the literal meaning that S focuses on. Ni is just more... of a fissure in a rock or volcano, whereas Ne is all the lava erupting from that volcano or the sentiment and minerals peering from the fissure of the rock. 




Bugs said:


> Establishing goals isn't Ni related. Establishing goals is related to J functions.


Now this I agree with 100%! Ni=goals is too common of a misconception. A goal is a value or logic Judgment... it's something you call on or use to make a decision. P doesn't do that... it just observes what is or what lies beyond what is. I would actually argue goal orientation is much more Je than Ji, as goals are extroverted... you must merge within the external world to reach them. I believe Ni is associated with goals because Ni types (when not pure) are aided through Je.
@shinynotshiny Well I'll admit sometimes I just get all literal with poems rather than peering behind the meaning so my logic is often terrible. Poking me in the ribs is all good.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm trying my best not to poke and prod you for Si arguments (my previous answers/Atwood's poem).
> 
> 
> :witch:


Why are you bouncing so much. 



shinynotshiny said:


> Can you explain this to me.
> 
> If, for example, someone relates a friend to a sea shell, does the sea shell signify something? Does it have a meaning? Does the Ni user know the meaning?


From my understanding of alittlebear's type which is most likely incorrect and I will be corrected but…

Doesn't the sea shell represent the friend itself? Or like there's a feeling attached to this particular representation and vibe? It's just this idea that's there and you can feel it? It's the summary of your impressions of that person? Or the fountain of impressions that can be expanded upon?

Maybe it's the present and future versions of the seashells?


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> Can you explain this to me.
> 
> If, for example, someone relates a friend to a sea shell, does the sea shell signify something? Does it have a meaning? Does the Ni user know the meaning?


It probably does signify something or they wouldn't specify the relationship. But to try to understand Ni _you have to take the focus off the objects_ I.e. the friend and the sea shell and focus on the _impressions_ both made on the part of the subject Ni user which can be immaterial. I'm sure the Ni understands the meaning of the impressions but I certainly don't. I don't think like that, I'm a materialistic Ne user :th_blush:


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Why are you bouncing so much.


Haphazard escape attempt.



Curiphant said:


> From my understanding of alittlebear's type which is most likely incorrect and I will be corrected but…
> 
> Doesn't the sea shell represent the friend itself? Or like there's a feeling attached to this particular representation and vibe? It's just this idea that's there and you can feel it? It's the summary of your impressions of that person? Or the fountain of impressions that can be expanded upon?
> 
> Maybe it's the present and future versions of the seashells?


Yes, but _why _does the shell represent the friend? What impression gives rise to the sea shell? or a yellow clip art guy?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Bugs said:


> Disagree, Se is objective and narrow. Si is subjective and narrow. Narrow can mean focused in this case. This is why Se is on an axis with Ni and Si with Ne. Ne is expansive and objective but fuzzy , it sacrifices crystal clear focus for broad abstraction, theoretically it can see more but with less clarity. It makes it easier for Ne to 'fill in the blanks'. Ni is subjective but expansive but lacks the detail that Si does.


Hello semantics. How are you?

By "narrow" and "expansive" I mean that Se expands on the sensory and sees it through a broad scopes, whereas Si narrows on the sensory to personalize it. Weeding out the sensory, I suppose. Same with Ni and Ne... Ne expands on all the different meanings and interpretations a symbol or concept can represent (often to see what sticks which is where Si kicks in) and Ni is more focused and narrow in that it's digging for a universal concept or meaning. I would say Ni is much more focused than Ne.


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> It probably does signify something or they wouldn't specify the relationship. But to try to understand Ni you have to take the focus off the objects I.e. the friend and the sea shell and focus on the _impressions_ both made on the part of the subject Ni user which can be immaterial. I'm sure the Ni understands the meaning of the impressions but I certainly don't. I don't think like that, I'm a materialistic Ne user :th_blush:


If I have an impression of someone and I relate them to an object, idea, or concept, I normally know the relationship between the two. That's why it's confusing when others can't say why they associate the things they do.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I've been trying to catch up on the happenings but I was informed to try to drop in and help with this?


shinynotshiny said:


> Haphazard escape attempt.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but _why _does the shell represent the friend? What impression gives rise to the sea shell? or a yellow clip art guy?


And I don't know. Again, I don't. The essence of the object (seashell) and the person match. That is the best way I can describe it. I am sorry I cannot do better than that.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I've been trying to catch up on the happenings but I was informed to try to drop in and help with this?
> 
> And I don't know. Again, I don't. The essence of the object (seashell) and the person match. That is the best way I can describe it. I am sorry I cannot do better than that.


You don't have to apologize. I am genuinely curious and trying to understand, that's all. For example, if you can answer, what's the essence of the sea shell? lace and purple and a smile? and so on.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Haphazard escape attempt.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but _why _does the shell represent the friend? What impression gives rise to the sea shell? or a yellow clip art guy?


There's no why? It just is

Like I have no idea why you vibe dark purple, light green and a bit of orange-pink but you do. If that's Ni. =/


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@angelcat you did *not* cause any contention. What did cause contention were fallacious arguments, of that which you weren't even involved in.

Also no, it is very good that you get corrected, as it allows you to be more objective in the future. Do not feel bad about making a mistake. It's all in the learning process.
@LuchoIsLurking Your inferior Ni is fucking crazy. Gotta agree with you there.

Honestly everything you say I hear in a rapper's voice. Particular Eminem for some reason. Or Hospin. I get some urban feel from you I suppose.


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> So it's more a personalized meaning?
> 
> Also, aren't all Ni dom and Ni-auxilaries J? I was mimicking Ni dom and auxiliaries.
> 
> Doesn't everything have meaning kind of? Like what do you mean by meaning? I think I'm getting it but I'm not


Yeah but Ni is not a J type function. It is a perceiving function thus it merely observes and investigates without categorizing anything until it employs a judging function. Personalized meaning can be sufficient to describe it. Something would impart an impression on the Ni/Si and Ni/Si search for subjective meaning. Ni looks for core meaning via convergence of related meanings where Si looks for relative meaning based on personal experience. It's sort of like fitting a piece of a puzzle. Difference is that Ni has a puzzle piece but is less certain of what the puzzle looks like complete and relies on intuiting what the puzzle should like (giving the opportunity to create something new) where as Si has a more defined image of what the puzzle is supposed to look like because they've already began working on the same puzzle with pieces they've found before. 

Meaning is something that can always be expanded upon due to subjective influence. Ni's like to take meaning to the limits and like to see how many dots exist to connect. Ni's are rarely satisfied with relative meaning and always believe there is more to be known.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> There's no why? It just is
> 
> Like I have no idea why you vibe dark purple, light green and a bit of orange-pink but you do. If that's Ni. =/


Hmm.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Se is extremely wide. You just don't see it. It is the complement to the depth and narrowness of Ni. 

Jung said that ideas are thinking, feeling, sensation, or intuition. An idea can be intuition. Ni is "vision". Inner vision. A lens with which one sees the world. 

I like this description by somebody else:

"I imagine Se and Ni working together like a sonar. Se scans and Ni pinpoints. Dominant Se would be able to scan the whole area but inferior Ni would make the dot not very apparent and easy to miss, and dominant Ni would be able to see the dot clearly but inferior Se misses what's around it or something like that."










_Ni and Si are _mapping/anchoring_ functions._
_Ne and Se are _exploration_ functions._

_If we wanna use a metaphor: One holds the map, the other goes indiana jones style into new territory. And they can't be described well without one another, so indeed they work in tandem._




NiSe holds an abstracted map, but does literal exploration.
SiNe holds a literal map, but does abstract exploration.


_The Ni map operates more like _*Fractal Art**. It converts a pattern into a formula, and multiplies it at infinitum to fill in the gaps of unknown territory.

The Si map operates more like a Matrix. It fills in it's map like a collection of independent experiences. The experiences are not connected via a formula like Ni's map. They are simply all catalogued into a matrix.

It is Ne that does the connecting of Si's map. Ne takes that matrix of experiences and dabbles with the data to form cross-contextualizations. Those connections weave the paradigm together.

For Se, it needs not do what Ne does because the connections are already made, it merely flows within those connections, those fractal-tangents, in the real world. And doing so allows Ni the opportunity to view reality to identify more governing formulas.



A note on the Why of the pairings:
​

The Ni map would be disturbed by Ne's process since it is non-synthesizing. Having Ne and Ni would make both useless. Ni needs the concrete exploration of Se in order to extract it's formulas. And Ne needs some concrete lego blocks to create new connections.

Ne cannot use Ni's data because it's abstract like itself. A fire cannot burn from a fire, it has to burn from the coals.

And vice versa: two coals are useless if they don't create fire. There would be no point in Se exploring Si's map because it is already known. Ne is the one who needs to hold the finite Si map and identify, at infinitum, the places where more exploring is necessary.

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/127262-really-good-ni-se-ne-si-comparison.html*


----------



## Vermillion

Curiphant said:


> There's no why? It just is
> 
> Like I have no idea why you vibe dark purple, light green and a bit of orange-pink but you do. If that's Ni. =/


:O :O What colors am I? If any.

Also, @alittlebear, I remember you described someone (I think @Oswin?) as lace and something purple (I forgot). Do you do those descriptions only for friends, or...?

Sorry guys I just really love knowing what I vibe as lol.


----------



## Bugs

hoopla said:


> Actually I would argue that meaning, symbolism and representation is N in general, as it disvalues the literal meaning that S focuses on. Ni is just more... of a fissure in a rock or volcano, whereas Ne is all the lava erupting from that volcano or the sentiment and minerals peering from the fissure of the rock.


Ill buy that. N is more abstract and S is more concrete be it I or E orientated. But that I/E divide is very important which is why I subscribe to the axis theory of functions. Considering the E/I divide ( i.e. Subject/Object dichotomy) then its reasonable to conclude Ne is in the same family of Si and Ni is in the same family as Se. Two sides of the same coin if you will with opposite focus. Se does externally what Si does internally and same with the N functions. Se is not expansive though its outward focused, the focus itself is narrow and deliberate. Ne's is broad and associative but lacks crystal precision of objects themselves.


----------



## Bugs

Double post


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Bugs said:


> Se defers to Ni when subjectively perceiving an impression of something and same with Ne/Si. I don't see a coherent relationship with Ne/Ni and Se/Si from the same subject because they cancel each other out. Ne doesn't really care about meanings , just relationships between objects outside of the subject. Meaning is generated internally which is in the realm of introverted perceiving. Both Ne and Se remove the subject from the observation and put all the focus on the external object(s). But I agree with your description of Ne being expansive and Si pinpointing, which is what I was saying. I was saying the same relationship doesn't exist with Se/Ni. Objective pinpointing comes first then subjective expansion happens over the pinpointed object. Think telescope and star charting ( ne-si) and archery with trying to hit the bulls eye ( Se-Ni).


Yes Ne/Se cancel out and don't work together but I'm not saying they are the same thing. I am saying that Ne/Se at it's core is Pe and Pe is expansive due to the objectivity, whereas Si/Ne is Pi, and Pi at it's core is narrow due to the subjectivity, since Pi is trying to weed it's own meaning out of objectivity. 

By Ne= meaning I mean that Ne is removing the sensory and trying to discover the symbols or meaning behind it. I attribute that to N as a whole.

So if Ne =/= narrow focus and is expansive, yet it removes the subject just like Se, then how is Se focused and Ni expansive? I don't see how that works.

@LuchoIsLurking If it helps any Hopsin is an ESTP lol. Most rap is SP oriented if we want to use lazy stereotypes. 

Tyler the Creator is likely some sort of SP as well. 

Your art is amazing! Reminds me of Daniel Johnston. Google him.

@alittlebear- What is my core then?  I understand impressions of people are very draining- are you exacting in your depictions like I am, out of curiosity? 

That was beautiful. Grey is perfect. It represents neutrality, and I see myself that way on issues I am not biased in.  I would say I am jagged on the outside and smooth on the inside though. I haven't studied rocks and minerals since like 6th grade or something so I can't remember the exact classification. For shame- I used to adore rocks and minerals. Never got around to growing my own crystals though lol.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Well... sort of. Sometimes it may come like that. But usually it's more... With @_Oswin_ today, of course I feel what I consider her, but to describe that I used the figures, the images. I had never contemplated them before - never asked what Oswin is, how is she this, or even thought "oh this reminds me of Oswin" as I did with that character I gave to @_Living dead_ - but she's describable all the same, and those manifestations of how I see her came to me. I mean, I can't just say "she's a gentle person". She is, but she is more than that. She is lace. That is her gentleness, while for instance I have a friend who my sister and I both agree is "gentle" by definition but she is more of a smooth blanket. It's almost like working with a different language. The images provide the connotations that are indescribable in the language I possess.


*I get it, Bear.*


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> *I get it, Bear.*


:fall:?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> *I get it, Bear.*


Does that mean you approach her symbols in the same way?

Please explain.


----------



## Max

@hoopla Yes. I was about to say how much I relate to Hopsin, and how much he reminds me of myself, lol. Yeah, a lot of rap is SP based. Immortal Technique is an ESTP, I heard. Eminem is an ISxP (debated a lot, he seems to lean more towards ISFP, though). Fifty Cent is an ISTP, I think. Frank Ocean is an ISFP, but what about Childish Gambino? He seems N to me. And Dr.Octagon, and B.O.B. Mr.Shadow too? He seems ExTP. And Nas also.

I am more inclined towards Old School/Underground rap more than mainstream. Not all mainstream is bad though.

My art is amazing? You are crazy. It's not really. It's just scribbles. Meaningless to others, lol. I'll look up Daniel Johnston though 

Sent from my SM-T330 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> *I get it, Bear.*


Oh, okay. Sorry, Thought you were still trying to get it down! 

@hoopla I have a hard time asserting what someone's core is. Like, even though I see @Curiphant as the yellow figure, I cannot say that is her core... Only she knows her core, which to me is the center of her being. I can try to know someone's core, what it feels like, but I am blind to the realities of its manifestation. The yellow figure more represents how I perceive her core, almost like an avatar I have for her. I think it fits her fairly well. The images that I have provided today - particularly the singular ones, not quite the descriptive ones I used for @Oswin (sorry, I keep tagging you!) - are along those lines of manifestations of their cores to me, but they might not be as solid as Curi's... because while I think I do feel them, and I think I do know part of them, I haven't known them for as long as Curi where while I cannot see her core I do have an idea of how she is, I think who she is, although I am blind when describing what really is her center. Only she can know that. Sometimes I can be there, but I can never get the full picture. 

But I'm glad you liked the rock. That one literally just came to me. I think it fits, but it was an odd image I have not gotten before. That's a neutral statement, but I suppose you can take it as a compliment.

Edit: oh, and can you explain what you mean by "exacting in your descriptions" please? I think I must have missed that bit from you.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Does that mean you approach her symbols in the same way?
> 
> Please explain.


It makes sense to me. Before, she was throwing around lace and sea shells and smiles without rhyme or reason (how it seemed to me). Of course her associations are subjective, we can't discern their meaning by ourselves, which is why I asked her how she made the associations. She didn't explain until now. 

As for approaching her symbols in the same way, do you mean do I also associate gentleness with lace and sophistication with purple, so on and so forth? Or do I have my own symbols for people, emotions, etc?


----------



## orbit

Shiny's type status changes  This means business 

I should sleep but I'm not sleeping


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> It makes sense to me. Before, she was throwing around lace and sea shells and smiles without rhyme or reason (how it seemed to me). Of course her associations are subjective, we can't discern their meaning by ourselves, which is why I asked her how she made the associations. She didn't explain until now.
> 
> As for approaching her symbols in the same way, do you mean do I also associate gentleness with lace and sophistication with purple, so on and so forth? Or do I have my own symbols for people, emotions, etc?


Even if she does not want those answers, I would be interested in them. 

I don't know if your symbols and connotations would be precisely like mine, though? I mean, even with Curi and me, I can see why she thinks of me as a color she does but I'm still like "oh that's cool, maybe that's in my self web, but I'm still blue." I understand what she means, but our representations are different. 

The other day we were listening to songs and I said something like "this is an apricot song" (it made me taste apricots?) and she said something like "no it's obviously a pear song, pear is violin!" or something, and I could see why she said that, but it still didn't mean that I didn't taste apricot in my mouth at the song.

I mean, maybe you would look at Oswin and see lace too - perhaps that would make me feel less lonely if you did - but I don't imagine that would be your immediate reaction.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> It makes sense to me. Before, she was throwing around lace and sea shells and smiles without rhyme or reason (how it seemed to me). Of course her associations are subjective, we can't discern their meaning by ourselves, which is why I asked her how she made the associations. She didn't explain until now.
> 
> As for approaching her symbols in the same way, do you mean do I also associate gentleness with lace and sophistication with purple, so on and so forth? Or do I have my own symbols for people, emotions, etc?


I mean you seemed to imply that she didn't have meaning (though you realize she does now) so I'm wondering if you determine internal meaning in the same way.

How about... how do you determine internal meaning of perception generally?


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Even if she does not want those answers, I would be interested in them.
> *
> I don't know if your symbols and connotations would be precisely like mine, though?* I mean, even with Curi and me, I can see why she thinks of me as a color she does but I'm still like "oh that's cool, maybe that's in my self web, but I'm still blue." I understand what she means, but our representations are different.
> 
> The other day we were listening to songs and I said something like "this is an apricot song" (it made me taste apricots?) and she said something like "no it's obviously a pear song, pear is violin!" or something, and I could see why she said that, but it still didn't mean that I didn't taste apricot in my mouth at the song.
> 
> I mean, maybe you would look at Oswin and see lace too - perhaps that would make me feel less lonely if you did - but I don't imagine that would be your immediate reaction.


I don't think they would be, no, but I want to make sure I was understanding hoopla's question. Maybe she's trying to gauge if we're tapping into universal symbols for things, something like that.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> @angelcat you did *not* cause any contention. What did cause contention were fallacious arguments, of that which you weren't even involved in.
> 
> Also no, it is very good that you get corrected, as it allows you to be more objective in the future. Do not feel bad about making a mistake. It's all in the learning process.


Yeah, but you'd think after doing this sort of thing (making grand, sweeping generalized hyperbolic statements) about 10,000 times without evidence to support it, which is often then called into question, I'd have stopped doing it.

NOPE.

ETA: I would ask what my core essence is, but I don't want @alittlebear feeling overwhelmed with requests.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

shinynotshiny said:


> Ni just is? "My friend is a sea shell and I don't have to understand it?"




Ni sees the big picture. Totality. It zooms out. It is not interested in following individual objects into an accumulated meaning. Maybe an ENxJ would be more likely to do that. 

I start at the end of things and work my way back. I don't start at objects. I am not a polytheist. There are not many Gods. Fi and Ti, and perhaps Ne, sing the praises of the many Gods. There is a God for everything. For seashells. 

That is why I said that Fi is like romanticism. Because it projects feelings on objects. Introversion is projection. It is more likely to pick up a seashell and find in it something beautiful or underappreciated, and then it sings its praises.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I mean you seemed to imply that she didn't have meaning (though you realize she does now) so I'm wondering if you determine internal meaning in the same way.
> 
> How about... how do you determine internal meaning of perception generally?


Not that she didn't have meaning, but that she couldn't express that meaning. 

I'm not as romantic as Bear. I've mentioned a few things that have meaning to me in past questionnaires.

I give meaning according to what something or someone represents, either to myself or in general. There's someone I consider loneliness, and she wears a red sweater and I see her walking in a park during autumn. I'm not going to explain that one because it's mine and personal 

...but it's simple. Red is love and warmth and passion, and it's that one color that stands out to you but you can't touch, it's too much for you, you can't match its drive, it burns. Autumn is change and death and eventual renewal. I've never experienced autumn with its changing of colors or anything like that, and it's too hot over here for sweaters, usually, so it's just about meanings coming together. I'm not sure what you'll make of it, and I don't often dwell on this kind of personal meaning as much as other kinds of meaning.


----------



## Dangerose

Bugs said:


> It probably does signify something or they wouldn't specify the relationship. But to try to understand Ni _you have to take the focus off the objects_ I.e. the friend and the sea shell and focus on the _impressions_ both made on the part of the subject Ni user which can be immaterial. I'm sure the Ni understands the meaning of the impressions but I certainly don't. I don't think like that, I'm a materialistic Ne user :th_blush:


Wait, ok. So if I'm holding a seashell, it gives me a certain feeling (for the sake of argument). It's a . . . hard, but appetizing feeling. Difficult to describe. Inexpressible Feeling Seashell. Then I meet someone and they give me the same, or similar feeling. I'm going to categorize them as a 'seashell' person even though they bear no similarities to seashells. If I had met the person before I found a seashell I would think that seashells were sort-of 'Amy'.

Is this Ni or Si? I've kind-of thought of it as Si. Because it's a subjective sensory impression. Right? Like, once I was in a city with an escalator, and the escalator gave me a particular 'escalator at evening' feeling. I was looking for that feeling again, finally I discovered that the Patriarch Ponds in Moscow have it too.

Ni or Si? Whichever one it is, I have it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Wait, ok. So if I'm holding a seashell, it gives me a certain feeling (for the sake of argument). It's a . . . hard, but appetizing feeling. Difficult to describe. Inexpressible Feeling Seashell. Then I meet someone and they give me the same, or similar feeling. I'm going to categorize them as a 'seashell' person even though they bear no similarities to seashells. If I had met the person before I found a seashell I would think that seashells were sort-of 'Amy'.
> 
> Is this Ni or Si? I've kind-of thought of it as Si. Because it's a subjective sensory impression. Right? Like, once I was in a city with an escalator, and the escalator gave me a particular 'escalator at evening' feeling. I was looking for that feeling again, finally I discovered that the Patriarch Ponds in Moscow have it too.
> 
> Ni or Si? Whichever one it is, I have it.


Hmm. 

I don't think a place would give me a feeling? Like, an elevator is an elevator.

But I will say, certain things give me feelings. A month ago when I was doing locks, it gave me an "apple-picking" feeling. I don't know why. I've never picked apples. But it made me feel content, because... I was picking apples. I was doing something. I was doing this. I don't know where else I've had that feeling, but I'm sure I've had it before. I want to say that doing locks always gives me an apple-picking feeling, although I'm not sure if it always has. Probably? 

(And I'm not sure what Pi it is a product of.)
@angelcat cannot give you your core, but I'll try to give you an idea of what my blind understanding of your core is as I have others. I've actually thought on you before because you said something on your blog about how xNFJs would describe you in weird terms and it prompted me to think of what weird terms I would describe you as. Unfortunately I've forgotten where I was going there at the time :/ 

But I will say (I'll try to get more specific with this / find a more accurate one) just immediately you seem like a plain, solid, light background (off-white, but that nice off-white you know? Probably not uhh) with little colorful - pastel, maybe? - brief dot-like things. (Quite a few of them, though; they aren't very big.) 

And @Amaterasu I'm still pondering yours as well, but I'm getting a curve, like a wave? Again, simple colors. Not sure what colors yet, but I think that @Curiphant is right about their being deep colors. I'm thinking deep brown and red and blue, but I'll try to get back with you on that 

@Greyhart still working on you. Spotted box is what I have now but again I'll try to get a clearer idea.


----------



## Immolate

Don't abandon me now, @hoopla 


:th_Jttesur:


----------



## Barakiel

Now I'm morbidly curious about what @alittlebear thinks my core is, perhaps a lack of tact? :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> It's... difficult to explain these "essences". But I'll do it a lot. I was listening to a song the other day in the car and I went "wow, this song matches this book." It did not match the book entirely, as some books do with some songs. But it fit an aspect of the book. The song sounded similar to how I thought the book would sound.
> 
> It's... I don't know. I'm trying to think. I think that part of it is that the "essence" of the object is indescribable just as the essence of the person is indescribable. The essence may not make sense to other people, which... always kind of confused me, because it was so obvious. This is this! She is that! They are not one, physically, but in a deeper sense they are a mirror of each other! It's been frustrating at times, even when I was younger.
> 
> I think that it's a more disorganized way of how I understand colors, maybe. As colors were not my natural connections (I borrowed them from Curi, you may have seen that post), I had to figure them out on my own. Start thinking in colors, maybe? (I'm not sure if I always thought of them but never realized it, but... Given my amazement with Curi's color connections, I would guess not.) I can say why someone represents a color because I have thought over the meanings of colors. My first post here today concerning it was that @Oswin was a purple flower, and... That just came to me. She is a purple flower. But then I could back up and realize, oh, why is she a purple flower. She is purple because she is elegant, she is sophisticated, but I think she is also lightly mysterious, partially in her depth like a blue but also by merit of who she is. She does not try to be fleeting and illusive, but I do lightly find her this way by merit of the way her posts blink. Which works, because the purple that comes to me for her is a little softer than lavender, it makes sense for it to have gentle and lighter connotations than deep purple would. (For example, I'm reading a deep purple book... It shares some elements with Oswin, but not nearly as... darkly, boldly.)
> 
> Hopefully that helps? With my other things they are more abstract and they just come to me, they are difficult to elain. But through the medium of colors I have thought over these standards connotations before, they are easier to translate.
> 
> While we're here... I'm sorry ahead of time for this because somehow it does not feel adequate? I do not find this your core, and I may be perceiving falsely here. But @hoopla I see you as a smooth rock lying on trimmed grass. Smooth rock, natural but grey, not completely cut but smooth and not rugged nonetheless. This one I do have a hard time explaining but perhaps it has to do with your... well, I suppose your wavelength? Gah, it's hard to explain. You are smooth, you are natural, you are down-to-earth, but it's like the combination of those elements.
> 
> And @Greyhart I'm working through yours still


I feel like I have so much to live up to now omg)

No, I get it though) Not sure if I do the same thing. I mean, I have a similar thing but it doesn't seem as distinct or cool as yours, it might come from a different process (as in my comment above). Like...ISFPs are cinnamon and vanilla. At least the ones I've met. Some people are avocado. Some things are avocado too. Hmm..I mostly seem to have foodstuffs haha)

I don't think I could do impressions of people on this website unless I really tried though, or necessarily of most people in real life? Or...maybe I could, but I'm not sure it would be super accurate (or fitting).

Anyways, I'm interested in hearing more about this thing and if/how it relates to the Pi functions)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Now I'm morbidly curious about what @alittlebear thinks my core is, perhaps a lack of tact? :wink:


You are bold, very bold. Like outwardly you should be orange - you are immediately orange - but I don't think on the inside you're orange. I get purple, green, maybe yellow. I'm just getting broad strokes right now for how you are but if I get a clearer idea I'll fill you in. Same for the others I've offered ^^

And again like I know that this probably doesn't matter to anyone because you guys aren't taking this so seriously I don't think but... These are just my impressions of you. I cannot know your core. I can get an idea and try to interpret what I perceive, but only you can really know it.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Find me a female one that you see as me, and I shall make her my avatar... when I can at least lol
> 
> Can you find me a clip?


Well, I hope you're not like Akira, honestly. You know how I said Type As are scary? She's worse. :dry:






Also, while trying to find a clip of her, I was wondering what you guys'll think about me watching this show... Probably a mixture of pity and disgust. I don't blame you. 

ETA: Just saw that @SugarPlum tried to delete her message, NO, I DON'T ALLOW IT. :laughing:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Barakiel 

Don't you think it is boring how people talk; making smart with their words again? Well, I'm bored. 

You are a media junkie. Anime, music, comic books and movies. They all represent you; who you are and what you want to be. And you *are* bored! People worry too much. They try too hard to be smart, collected, poised, polite. They talk politics and human rights campaigns and that's all well and good until the truth is misrepresented in order to get people to care. You really don't care. You are disgusted with those who make a mountain of a molehill. You are going to stomp all over their molehill and laugh at their tears because some people need to be shaken up a bit.

You are not orange; orange is fiery and playful, but you are red; deep, rich and brooding and you are going to blow hand grenades in people's faces in order to watch their heads explode. You want to destroy their valued photo albums in order to get them to loosen up! "Quit caring about that which does not matter," you say. People are just too comfortable. You want to show them the world... yet no one can keep up with you. They're too locked up in that of which they know.

You are the tornado whirling within the wind at a million miles per hour, keeping your distance while you marvel at TV tropes and aspire to be the devious murder antagonist of an anime I have yet to watch. Yet you do care... when it matters. Those who matter won't mind, and will finally catch you, even if you are the gingerbread man. Until then, more for you.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Oh jesus, my Ni is rather low compared to you guys', but I'll give it a shot, @alittlebear seems like a new/full moon, either enveloping everything or not at all; @Oswin, you... I get this feeling of water, a calm, yet assuring presence, but also affected by what touches it; @fair phantom, compared to @Oswin, you're like the free air, able to rise above with endless amounts of optimism, but also brought down by whatever heat you experience; @Greyhart, the sensation of freeze frames. Everywhere. Stuff you don't notice until you're looking back on what you just saw. :laughing: ; @hoopla, I get the sensation of a calm breeze from you, different to @fair phantom in that it's rather indistinctive and unrecognisable to me; And that's about it. :dry: If I didn't mention you, I'm either drained, or I forgot. Ask away! :happy:


Haha indeed. I don't do well with heat! :teapot:



Oswin said:


> @fair phantom, for you I'm imagining a gif sort of thing of autumn leaves (I think maple leaves) falling off their stem and being swept up into the sidewalk in a burst of wind. Which sounds depressing, but it's more of the overall thing, the wind, the leaves, the tree...kinda dynamic and static at the same time)


Oh lovely. I don't find it depressing. Autumn is my favourite time of year. Thank you. :fall:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@alittlebear You are an orphan your parents died blah blah blah blah blah. You are not going to talk about it because you are too busy donating all the soup in kitchens that your heart can possibly deliver. And that's how most people see you; the kindest soul in the room. You will make them a birthday cake and a get well card and will never forget to call. And yet their is internal contention about this very reputation. You are much *more* than that; the anonymous soul who will never dare ask but will reach out that helping in hand in order to omit the dark within their hearts.

You are limp; you are floppy; you are gauche; a rag doll on the shelf that no child wants to play with. Yet... you are more than that. You are the defender who will rip all of her stuffing out in order to make a point. Justice is to be had. Cruelty is amongst us, and if no one cares, then you will be the one to change the world. You will not be quiet anymore. You will sprinkle arsenic in soup if it will free the orphans from an unlawful dictator running the show... and then worry that perhaps you aren't the golden halo the newspapers make you out to be. So you'll stuff all your stuffing inside of your soul as you stitch yourself up in hopes that silence softens surrender. 

Now you play as the plaything you are. When you are too serious a sweet little joke illuminates the smiles of millions for centuries. You will sit back, relax, and arrange auras into stars and not know how you got there. You will never know how important your role within society is until your visions finally fledge the future destiny residing within the souls of the people. A few books never hurt either. Or some self built academies for the less fortunate.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Find me a female one that you see as me, and I shall make her my avatar... when I can at least lol
> 
> Can you find me a clip?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I hope you're not like Akira, honestly. You know how I said Type As are scary? She's worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, while trying to find a clip of her, I was wondering what you guys'll think about me watching this show... Probably a mixture of pity and disgust. I don't blame you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ETA: Just saw that @SugarPlum tried to delete her message, NO, I DON'T ALLOW IT.
Click to expand...

hah, i deleted it because i went on the search for clips myself. Omg. No not her! Lol

I have been checking out lucky star, familar zero, Fullmetal alchemist, fairy tail.. this is my first exposure to anime other than sailor moon and Pokémon as a kid lol


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> @alittlebear You are an orphan your parents died blah blah blah blah blah. You are not going to talk about it because you are too busy donating all the soup in kitchens that your heart can possibly deliver. And that's how most people see you; the kindest soul in the room. You will make them a birthday cake and a get well card and will never forget to call. And yet their is internal contention about this very reputation. You are much *more* than that; the anonymous soul who will never dare ask but will reach out that helping in hand in order to omit the dark within their hearts.
> 
> You are limp; you are floppy; you are gauche; a rag doll on the shelf that no child wants to play with. Yet... you are more than that. You are the defender who will rip all of her stuffing out in order to make a point. Justice is to be had. Cruelty is amongst us, and if no one cares, then you will be the one to change the world. You will not be quiet anymore. You will sprinkle arsenic in soup if it will free the orphans from an unlawful dictator running the show... and then worry that perhaps you aren't the golden halo the newspapers make you out to be. So you'll stuff all your stuffing inside of your soul as you stitch yourself up in hopes that silence softens surrender.
> 
> Now you play as the plaything you are. When you are too serious a sweet little joke illuminates the smiles of millions for centuries. You will sit back, relax, and arrange auras into stars and not know how you got there. You will never know how important your role within society is until your visions finally fledge the future destiny residing within the souls of the people. A few books never hurt either. Or some self built academies for the less fortunate.


WHoley hell , you are out of this world! The way these words and stories just flow. Incredible.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I was gonna ask this earlier. .. what is everyone's favorite season?

Mine is , hands down Autumn. I am actually a little obsessed.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@SugarPlum

There is a lesson that I want you to learn; it's if you're going to play with fire, well you're going to get burned.

You are mostly unassuming. You wake up, kiss your husband, make your children some breakfast... and interact with strangers. As tactfully as you can. "Hello madam, how are you?" "Fine sir, and you?" "Splendid. ...Say, nice weather we're having." "Indeed. Well I have to get going." And off you go to buy beans and rice and tortillas in order to make burritos for the family.

You are mostly set off to live the life that you want to live. That includes shaping the best life you can for your family, along with crafting creative culinary goods and lucrative, laborious bibelots you found on pintrest to sell to your friends... until you are pooped and watch sitcoms and fantasy dramas on Netflix for a week. But never fear! Those whom you hold close to your heart know you've always got their back and will rise from the ashes in order to spring into a delightful reciprocation. You are amiable and friendly to those who matter. You create a cheerful camaraderie with those you selectively allow into the intimate corners of your soul. Yet watch out! Those rude little know it alls who think they can take advantage and get away with nothing... they are in for quite the show. You will flame red and ignite flames until you tap out the fire and get back to sewing the quilts you were inspired to weave with warmth.

You are Raggedy Anne; bubbly and ebullient until Raggedy Andy says something sexist, leading you to kick him in the crotch. Or alternately, a plump, elderly women with elevated, rosy cheeks who bakes cookies for the children in your neighborhood. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood and you'll let anyone be your neighbor until they overstay their welcome. Subsequently, you scream bloody murder, commanding the brats to flee from your lawn. Salt resides within your sugar; hard to find, but when deserved, the enemies will certainly have a taste.

Ok I think that's everyone (I hope). I will finish tomorrow and improve upon @Greyhart and @shinynotshiny's descriptions. I was going to be literal but this is more fun. Now I'm off to bed whilst I dream about whatever the hell it is I am doing with my life. You all are lucky that I love to write (and waste time and endure sleep deprivation).


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> I was gonna ask this earlier. .. what is everyone's favorite season?
> 
> Mine is , hands down Autumn. I am actually a little obsessed.


Right now, summer, because THERE IS ACTUALLY SUN and sun just makes everything better. But overall, summer's not my favorite season...it's the shallowest imo, it's just energy and fun. But no one can be sad in summer (except Lana del Rey). Except that summer evenings are the epitome of melancholy. So it does have a deepness to it, just not so obviously (sorry, I'm still stuck on the essences conversation)
I make so many summer CDs with really peppy shallow songs on them that I would not listen to at any other time of the year, this song for instance finds it way onto like every single one of my summer CDs and basically everything by this band.





Autumn, yes, it's a good season. Sometimes my favorite. Especially when I was going to school because September was the first day of school and...well, I get very into autumn too, making pies and wearing sweaters and noticing how crisp everything is...streetlights on leaves, all that...sometimes it's my favorite, sometimes not.
I never know what to put on autumn CDs, it's usually just 'Windmills of Your Mind' and Alexander Rybak, who I don't even like anymore (he was like my high school celebrity crush, along with all my friends, we just loved him) but he's soooo cheesy...but his music has an autumnal sound anyways)





Winter is wonderful too. It's just always a disappointment where I live. I usually stick to deep, dark, music and folk music for some reason. This is the best winter song imo:




(Sorry about the long beautiful poem but this is the best version of this song. Not that anyone is clicking on these links, I don't even know why I'm insisting on posting songs, it's just...I don't know, I'm avoiding writing and I'm having fun, put up with it)

Spring...always a disappointment too. I don't think I have any specifically spring songs. I don't even know what to do with spring songs. I get all excited about Lent and Valentine's Day but it tends to just feel like winter. 

Does my excessive seasonal love make me an SJ?


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> hah, i deleted it because i went on the search for clips myself. Omg. No not her! Lol
> 
> I have been checking out lucky star, familar zero, Fullmetal alchemist, fairy tail.. this is my first exposure to anime other than sailor moon and Pokémon as a kid lol


Well, she is an extreme example, we call her kind a bitch in sheep's clothing, but I said her mainly because I didn't have another example off the top of my head.

Haha, don't worry, I think we're all like that. Though, am I the only one who hasn't watched Sailor Moon? Maybe it's a girl thing. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

Re: my season comment . . . I actually am ESFJ, aren't I? I mean, in winter I go to folk songs, or if I'm sad or freaking out that's usually the music I go to. Because it's comforting. Because it's old and familiar. Because it gives me this feeling of . . . continuity. I guess this makes sense, I just want some confirmation here. If I were an ENFJ...I would probably have some goal in my life. I would...well, you know the old song 'I know where I'm going?' Well, I don't.

Spoiler because I was just ranting and it was annoying. Ignore, but I'm posting it because it makes me feel better.


* *





Since I was fifteen I could not sing that song without crying because...I _don't_ know where I'm going. Or this song in fact:




because I used to think life would be so simple and it's just that I finished school and it was like I reached the end of the pier, I was expected to swim by myself and I didn't know how, everyone else knew exactly where they were going, they found a new place, and I just didn't. And now I'm living with my parents, and I'm twenty already, and I don't know how I will provide for myself, I know I should move out of my house and face life by myself and forge some sort of road but it's _so hard_, and I don't have any talent or recommendations, no way of getting along. I just have one little job helping an old lady, but old ladies die and I can't save money to save my life. I'm just so ridiculously _incapable._ I honestly don't believe I have any sort of mental disabilities, though I have considered it, but I think I am quite mentally capable...but not spiritually. And, ugh, this stopped being a really relevant-to-my-typing rant, but maybe it will help anyway.

Sorry, it's like every time I try to write it's just like...why are you doing this, you aren't a good writer, and I know I'm not a good writer, I'm not deceived on that point, but I know I have to put my best effort into it to try to trick people into giving me money, but I feel bad about that and like I'm setting myself up as something I'm not, and then I wonder why I'm not a good writer, it's because I don't practice because I start freaking out every time I start. I don't even like to write, but I feel like I have ideas and thoughts I want to share and I don't want them to be buried with me. But why am I trying to flood the market with more bad ideas when there's already millions of people doing that, what's the point?

If I had something else I could direct my energy towards, maybe I could work on writing or anything else as a hobby and actually enjoy it for the sake of writing (or whatever the activity is), but I have no 'life', just strings of separate occurrences that don't hold together, don't have any meaning, aren't leading anywhere, have no plot holding them together (which incidentally is the big problem in my writing too)

Like, why can't I just get a job doing something...how is it so hard to get a job in retail, shouldn't that be the easiest thing? And I see all these horrible rude people working behind counters, I would obviously be better than them, how does that work out?

Ehh, leaving this here because maybe it says something about my type, and it'll make me feel better if I say these things 'to other people' but no one needs to respond or anything, just...ugh. I don't know.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> @Barakiel
> 
> Don't you think it is boring how people talk; making smart with their words again? Well, I'm bored.
> 
> You are a media junkie. Anime, music, comic books and movies. They all represent you; who you are and what you want to be. And you *are* bored! People worry too much. They try too hard to be smart, collected, poised, polite. They talk politics and human rights campaigns and that's all well and good until the truth is misrepresented in order to get people to care. You really don't care. You are disgusted with those who make a mountain of a molehill. You are going to stomp all over their molehill and laugh at their tears because some people need to be shaken up a bit.
> 
> You are not orange; orange is fiery and playful, but you are red; deep, rich and brooding and you are going to blow hand grenades in people's faces in order to watch their heads explode. You want to destroy their valued photo albums in order to get them to loosen up! "Quit caring about that which does not matter," you say. People are just too comfortable. You want to show them the world... yet no one can keep up with you. They're too locked up in that of which they know.
> 
> You are the tornado whirling within the wind at a million miles per hour, keeping your distance while you marvel at TV tropes and wish to be the devious murder antagonist of an anime I have yet to watch. Yet you do care... when it matters. Those who matter won't mind, and will finally catch you, even if you are the gingerbread man. Until then, more for you.


Seems fairly awesome, thank you very much. :laughing: I can relate to all so much of this, although I suppose this isn't to be taken as fact, just like @alittlebear's. Still, rather poetic and cool, so I've got to commend you again for this. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

I feel like there should be a type that's just 'you use no functions effectively go die in a hole'. Enneagram is more useful in that respect. "Which ways do you suck?" "ooh this way with a smattering of this way"...it's easy) MBTI seems to assume you're capable in at least one specific respect. Some people just aren't. I failed at all the functions. 

(Sorry, promise I'll go to bed soon and then I will not be being weird pinky swear).


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I feel like there should be a type that's just 'you use no functions effectively go die in a hole'. Enneagram is more useful in that respect. "Which ways do you suck?" "ooh this way with a smattering of this way"...it's easy) MBTI seems to assume you're capable in at least one specific respect. Some people just aren't. I failed at all the functions.
> 
> (Sorry, promise I'll go to bed soon and then I will not be being weird pinky swear).


Oh come on, quit with the self pity, we can't type you like this. :dry: Well, if Ni means having a goal, I'm not Ni, since I'm currently coasting through life with naught a whim in the world, though that's mostly due to my messed up psyche. :laughing: I haven't talked much with you, so I can't really say one way or the other, so I'm probably not much help, though.


----------



## owlet

Writing replies while my cat leans his head over my shoulder...




shinynotshiny said:


> Thank you :teapot:
> 
> More recently I had it mid-back, then I showed up one day with a pixie cut and everyone was astounded. I tend to let it grow long enough to donate before cutting it all off. It shocks most people.
> 
> I wish I had thick hair, or curly hair like my mother. Ah well.
> 
> @_Curiphant_ too straight :dispirited:


It so nice that you donate your hair :ghost:

Thick hair is great in winter, but not so great in summer, when even if you tie it up it makes your scalp boiling.



fair phantom said:


> Okay so I read through the Ti and Fi links @_Greyhart_ shared here including posts by @_hoopla_ @_laurie17_ @_ElliCat_
> 
> This is where I am most Ti. I am so much about this. Except I'm not sure about the "system" part (but I'll get back to that). I have a voracious desire to learn, and not just facts, I want to _understand_ what I am learning. Learning is a good in itself to me.
> 
> I am constantly analyzing questioning theorizing turning things over and over. I look for logical inconsistencies (though I don't have much confidence in my abilities). I like when things are internally consistent, such as fantasy worlds. I love fantasy magic, but I don't think that means you can do whatever you want, magic must have a set of rules, as if it were physics.
> 
> However...I'm not sure how systematic I am. And I don't view people impersonally. While I can, when necessary, detach my feelings to try to make an objective assessment of a person, situation, what have you...that isn't my instinct. I see people as wonderful individuals, who may demonstrate certain patterns (and I think it valuable to observe and understand those patterns), but I am not approaching people scientifically (I don't think all Ti people do this? I'm just responding to what I read). I envy the people who are capable of seeing all these systems, but I don't think I am one of them. And yet I can't categorically _deny_ that I approach the world this way, at least in part. Maybe there is just something about the terminology that I have trouble connecting with. (Perhaps it is my upbringing, if my ESTP father had more involved....)
> 
> As for Fi, I definitely relate to those posts quite a bit, though I think with a bit of Fe inflection perhaps due to various factors. Perhaps it would make sense to say that my internal process seems more Fi but my behaviour is more of a mix (with Fe that isn't dominant)
> 
> Sigh. :confused2:


I would focus on your internal processes rather than behaviour. Behaviour is influenced by a variety of different factors which can skew either your own or someone's perception of you. My friend was convinced I was a Thinking type (between INTP and INTJ) because I tend to behave in quite an... objective way? Well, it was more that I didn't act in a 'typically' Feeling way (whatever that is - maybe because I prefer to offer advice rather than show sympathy, although that is me showing sympathy by trying to resolve the problem), so I had to be a Te or Ti user.



Greyhart said:


>



Delete the internet before its power grows! :hotneko:That's a pretty terrifying amount for a number of reasons.

I saw some people asking about Se vs Si a while back? (And some stuff about Ni?)

Firstly, Ni is not about having a goal. It's just that, due to Ni focusing on how something 'will be' there can be a tendency for them to appear to have a goal as they are seeing the result they believe most likely to happen. Anyone can have goals. Ni can believe that their image of what is going to be is quite certain and so will present it as fact, despite a lack of evidence for it.

Se is about wanting to see how things are (disconnection from Ni's 'will be', just as Ni is disconnected from Se). Se users tend to prefer to judge what they perceive to be 'is', so the example from earlier was an ISFP not wanting to hypothesise about how they might feel about a situation and preferring to wait until it actually happened to gauge their reactions. Se therefore has a tendency towards moving towards new experiences in order to learn about their reactions/understandings/judgements through their preferred method.

Si is more about seeing things as how they 'should be' (which can be based on what they've previously perceived to be the best way). This means that they can have a tendency to feel uncomfortable when someone introduces them to something completely unknown - and more importantly, something they can't transfer their knowledge onto. This is because they have to build up a completely new concept of the best way. (I've also noticed that Si users often say things like 'this should be like this') It is disconnected from Ne's 'could be' because it prefers what 'should be'. It's more of an impressionistic painting of reality, as compared to Se's photograph.

Seeing as I've done 3 of 4, I'll have a go at Ne too.

Ne is the 'could be' function, so Ne users have a tendency to not really see 'what's there' in favour for what it could be (this future tense implies the potential of the object is in the future, but actually, it's more of an alternate reality stream, or something). It's disconnected from Si's 'should be' because that prevents the 'could be' perception which is preferred by the user. Ne is likely to look at the world through a sort of layer or film that they prefer to look at instead of what actually is, as the actuality does not easily reconcile with the potential that can often seem unrelated or impossible.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Oh come on, quit with the self pity, we can't type you like this. :dry: Well, if Ni means having a goal, I'm not Ni, since I'm currently coasting through life with naught a whim in the world, though that's mostly due to my messed up psyche. :laughing: I haven't talked much with you, so I can't really say one way or the other, so I'm probably not much help, though.


Argh sorry. Tired) I just feel like Ni would...have some sort of ... plan. I feel like Si would make provisions. I do neither. Don't know what that means.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Argh sorry. Tired) I just feel like Ni would...have some sort of ... plan. I feel like Si would make provisions. I do neither. Don't know what that means.


Trust me, it's not that simple. :dry: Ni has Se, Si has Ne, and considering your two types you're stuck between are ENFJ and ESFJ, although that may be your 2 influence and not actually Fe, are you more appreciative of new ideas (tertiary Ne) but still contained by your obligations, or more materialistic (tertiary Se), and more future oriented and symbolism prone?


----------



## Immolate

Why do my bones ache every morning. I'm not that old. :chargrined:

All these descriptions are lovely. I have to catch up.


*[Edit]* Alright, very quick descriptors.

@_alittlebear_ the sound of rain against leaves

@_Greyhart_ electricity and neon circuits

@_laurie17_ midnight-blue lullaby

@_Barakiel_ striations in the earth

@_Oswin_ flowers pressed between pages of a diary

@_fair phantom_ morning dew

@_SugarPlum_ the bubbles from a little boy's bubble wand


@_hoopla_ @_ElliCat_ and anyone I missed, I'll get to you 


*[EditEdit]* Why does the world treat words so cruelly :grumpy:


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Why do my bones ache every morning. I'm not that old. :chargrined:
> 
> All these descriptions are lovely. I have to catch up.
> 
> 
> *[Edit]* Alright, very quick descriptors.
> 
> @_alittlebear_ the sound of rain against leaves
> 
> @_Greyhart_ electricity and neon circuits
> 
> @_laurie17_ midnight-blue lullaby
> 
> @_Barakiel_ striations in the earth
> 
> @_Oswin_ flowers pressed between pages of a diary
> 
> @_fair phantom_ morning dew
> 
> @_SugarPlum_ the bubbles from a little boy's bubble wand
> 
> 
> @_hoopla_ @_ElliCat_ and anyone I missed, I'll get to you
> 
> 
> *[EditEdit]* Why does the world treat words so cruelly :grumpy:


These are wonderful, oh my gosh, and I love mine) I press flowers all the time, whenever they start to wilt, so it's quite fitting too))


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> These are wonderful, oh my gosh, and I love mine) I press flowers all the time, whenever they start to wilt, so it's quite fitting too))


I'm glad you like yours :teapot:


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Why do my bones ache every morning. I'm not that old. :chargrined:
> 
> All these descriptions are lovely. I have to catch up.
> 
> 
> *[Edit]* Alright, very quick descriptors.
> 
> @_alittlebear_ the sound of rain against leaves
> 
> @_Greyhart_ electricity and neon circuits
> 
> @_laurie17_ midnight-blue lullaby
> 
> @_Barakiel_ striations in the earth
> 
> @_Oswin_ flowers pressed between pages of a diary
> 
> @_fair phantom_ morning dew
> 
> @_SugarPlum_ the bubbles from a little boy's bubble wand
> 
> 
> @_hoopla_ @_ElliCat_ and anyone I missed, I'll get to you
> 
> 
> *[EditEdit]* Why does the world treat words so cruelly :grumpy:


These descriptions are so poetic! :fall: Thank you!

The aching bones sensation might be stiff joints? There are some good stretches you can do that make them a lot better (I have to do exercises for joint hypermobility, so I've learnt all about muscles and joints...) like those in Tai Chi, but I've heard that surprisingly yoga is bad for joints (I'm not sure how true that is).


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Trust me, it's not that simple. :dry: Ni has Se, Si has Ne, and considering your two types you're stuck between are ENFJ and ESFJ, although that may be your 2 influence and not actually Fe, are you more appreciative of new ideas (tertiary Ne) but still contained by your obligations, or more materialistic (tertiary Se), and more future oriented and symbolism prone?


You could be right about the 2 thing, I could be interpreting my two-ness as Fe. Reading @Blue Flare's quotes in the thread really cleared up my Enneagram, and I've realized that I'm a 2 through and through...which was something of a painful realization, since 2 was one of those types that sort-of annoyed me (probably because it was mine). So, yeah, not sure how to differentiate that from the Fe but it's a good thing to keep in mind.

More materialistic and symbolism prone sounds like me, I'm not sure about the future thing though. I really need to sleep, maybe I'll be able to think then. 

Thanks for your help)


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm glad you like yours :teapot:


Oh, to further @laurie17s comment about the joints, I used to have a problem that my left hip would hurt when I woke up. I started sleeping with an electric blanket and it made it better. It was just cold. Exercising it also helps.


----------



## owlet

Also @shinynotshiny I'm so glad you're using the teapot as the 'accepting thanks' emoticon - that was exactly what I saw it as.


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> @Curiphant You are the observer! You don't always have much to say, but your mind is a carnival of primary colors; red, yellow and green. There are clowns and bearded ladies; delicious popcorn and hot dog stands; the laughter of children and the violent surrender of drunk shady men operating rollercoasters. You sit at the top of a ferris wheel, viewing all the sights and sounds, taking great pleasure of all that is to behold.
> 
> And this is how you see most situations. You do not have to act, but watch and wonder. Not at what could be, but at the very mystique and absurdity we call life. You feel like an ant at the top of a hill you constructed for your queen, trapped and wanting to plot revenge on the townspeople. You love almost everything, even if you don't like what it is or who they are, but because the very thing they are brings you much delight. You want to test those limits. You want to toy with people. You want to battle to the death. You want to paint the world and show it to the stars. Your avatar is a great depiction of what you are. A playful voyage. You will one day ride a hot air balloon, beholding all the sights and classifying the clouds, until you blitz-fully land with a crash and a boom and report your observations to a scientist lab. But mostly you will sit with your back arched amongst a tree, living a normal life conducting chemistry experiments and reading book series and listening to music, which is ok with you because the rich color of the universe still resides within your soul.
> 
> You are very smart. You pick up on knowledge quickly with your sharp, keen mind. The only stupid thing you do is end up oblivious to the knowledge you contain. And maybe set off a bomb in a pirate ship. But you're mostly polite and it was only a grand scheme you quickly executed. Only in good fun. You promise.


Thank you ^^


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> We're approaching 950 but I'm too lazy to do stick figures. =/
> @Bugs, can you expand on the photography metaphor with Ni and Ne?


Ne is also a photographer but a different kind than Se. Ne wants to capture as much as they can including the nuanced background instead of focusing on a single particular object. Since Si is the introverted companion of Ne it will want to develop said image and look for anything that stands out to it. Si condences Ne's broad observations into detailed facets.

Ni takes Se's sharp external image and examines the meaning and connections inferred by such image. It's not an exquisitely detailed impression but an abstracted imaginative one full of possibilities.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> These descriptions are so poetic! :fall: Thank you!
> 
> The aching bones sensation might be stiff joints? There are some good stretches you can do that make them a lot better (I have to do exercises for joint hypermobility, so I've learnt all about muscles and joints...) like those in Tai Chi, but I've heard that surprisingly yoga is bad for joints (I'm not sure how true that is).


:teapot:


Thank you for the recommendation. It gets so bad some mornings I have to sit in bed and just stretch for a few minutes. I'm now considering a stretching routine.

:coldneko:


----------



## Bugs

Oswin said:


> Wait, ok. So if I'm holding a seashell, it gives me a certain feeling (for the sake of argument). It's a . . . hard, but appetizing feeling. Difficult to describe. Inexpressible Feeling Seashell. Then I meet someone and they give me the same, or similar feeling. I'm going to categorize them as a 'seashell' person even though they bear no similarities to seashells. If I had met the person before I found a seashell I would think that seashells were sort-of 'Amy'.
> 
> Is this Ni or Si? I've kind-of thought of it as Si. Because it's a subjective sensory impression. Right? Like, once I was in a city with an escalator, and the escalator gave me a particular 'escalator at evening' feeling. I was looking for that feeling again, finally I discovered that the Patriarch Ponds in Moscow have it too.
> 
> Ni or Si? Whichever one it is, I have it.


For the sake of argument, I think you are employing a little more Si here. I think a more accurate description than "feeling" would be "impression." Not every experience will neccessarily evokes a strong emotion. It could just make you contemplating. I think the focus here is still on the object of the seashell and what impressions it gives which makes me detect Si with you. Si still retains the inner sensory experience of said object but then automatically begins to catalog it by relating it to an existing database of experience. Ni will abstract the impressions and soon depart from the object itself. Maybe someone saw a lone seashell on the shore and it laid there in sharp contrast to everything around it. This is like a needle in a haystack being found. It's amazing how nature itself is full of contrast and wonder, etc..... The point is the Ni may not see the seashell impression as relating to a seashell at all but really put emphasis on all the little gifts that mother nature yields. It's not a full proof description and I'm already poking holes in this crap I just wrote but I hope it is a little more clear.


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> Ne is also a photographer but a different kind than Se. Ne wants to capture as much as they can including the nuanced background instead of focusing on a single particular object. Since Si is the introverted companion of Ne it will want to develop said image and look for anything that stands out to it. Si condences Ne's broad observations into detailed facets.
> 
> Ni takes Se's sharp external image and examines the meaning and connections inferred by such image. It's not an exquisitely detailed impression but an abstracted imaginative one full of possibilities.


Thank you ^^

This interesting because I thought that Ne was the one that made the possibilities and Ni was the one with the detailed impression ><


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> For the sake of argument, I think you are employing a little more Si here. I think a more accurate description than "feeling" would be "impression." Not every experience will neccessarily evokes a strong emotion. It could just make you contemplating. I think the focus here is still on the object of the seashell and what impressions it gives which makes me detect Si with you. Si still retains the inner sensory experience of said object but then automatically begins to catalog it by relating it to an existing database of experience. Ni will abstract the impressions and soon depart from the object itself. Maybe someone saw a lone seashell on the shore and it laid there in sharp contrast to everything around it. This is like a needle in a haystack being found. It's amazing how nature itself is full of contrast and wonder, etc..... The point is the Ni may not see the seashell impression as relating to a seashell at all but really put emphasis on all the little gifts that mother nature yields. It's not a full proof description and I'm already poking holes in this crap I just wrote but I hope it is a little more clear.


So, let's say you're walking around the desert and it's all sand, sand, sand and you think you're going to die because there's no life anywhere, but then you come across a cactus with a red blooming flower and it brings you hope. You manage to find other people after all, and from then on you wear a red arm band with a flower pattern on it because it symbolizes hope and the drive to keep moving forward despite everything telling you there's no point in doing so.

Something like that. I'm just rambling. What is this? Si/Ni?


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> For the sake of argument, I think you are employing a little more Si here. I think a more accurate description than "feeling" would be "impression." Not every experience will neccessarily evokes a strong emotion. It could just make you contemplating. I think the focus here is still on the object of the seashell and what impressions it gives which makes me detect Si with you. Si still retains the inner sensory experience of said object but then automatically begins to catalog it by relating it to an existing database of experience. Ni will abstract the impressions and soon depart from the object itself. Maybe someone saw a lone seashell on the shore and it laid there in sharp contrast to everything around it. This is like a needle in a haystack being found. It's amazing how nature itself is full of contrast and wonder, etc..... The point is the Ni may not see the seashell impression as relating to a seashell at all but really put emphasis on all the little gifts that mother nature yields. It's not a full proof description and I'm already poking holes in this crap I just wrote but I hope it is a little more clear.


Ni relates the meaning to the user's view of the grand scheme of things, while Si relates the meaning to the inner self?


----------



## Tad Cooper

@_alittlebear_ - the heart of a cuddly toy (a jewel?).

@_Greyhart_ - electrons in the solar system.

@_laurie17_ - solid clay and earth.

@_Barakiel_ - a jack-in-the-box which throws something new out each time.

@_Oswin_ - a cloak on a washing line.

@_fair phantom_ - leaves on a young tree.

@SugarPlum - a smile in a bottle

@_hoopla_ - the area just above a tree canopy.
@_ElliCat_ - the sensation of having hair braided.
@_shinynotshiny_ - a fist gently opening and closing.


----------



## orbit

tine said:


> @alittlebear - the heart of a cuddly toy (a jewel?).
> 
> @Greyhart - electrons in the solar system.
> 
> @laurie17 - solid clay and earth.
> 
> @Barakiel - a jack-in-the-box which throws something new out each time.
> 
> @Oswin - a cloak on a washing line.
> 
> @fair phantom - leaves on a young tree.
> 
> @sugar Plum - a smile in a bottle
> 
> @hoopla - the area just above a tree canopy.
> @ElliCat - the sensation of having hair braided.
> @shinynotshiny - a fist gently opening and closing.


Mind getting an impression of me? Sorry curious ><


----------



## Bugs

hoopla said:


> Yes Ne/Se cancel out and don't work together but I'm not saying they are the same thing. I am saying that Ne/Se at it's core is Pe and Pe is expansive due to the objectivity, whereas Si/Ne is Pi, and Pi at it's core is narrow due to the subjectivity, since Pi is trying to weed it's own meaning out of objectivity.
> 
> By Ne= meaning I mean that Ne is removing the sensory and trying to discover the symbols or meaning behind it. I attribute that to N as a whole.
> 
> So if Ne =/= narrow focus and is expansive, yet it removes the subject just like Se, then how is Se focused and Ni expansive? I don't see how that works.
> 
> @LuchoIsLurking If it helps any Hopsin is an ESTP lol. Most rap is SP oriented if we want to use lazy stereotypes.
> 
> Tyler the Creator is likely some sort of SP as well.
> 
> Your art is amazing! Reminds me of Daniel Johnston. Google him.
> 
> @alittlebear- What is my core then?  I understand impressions of people are very draining- are you exacting in your depictions like I am, out of curiosity?
> 
> That was beautiful. Grey is perfect. It represents neutrality, and I see myself that way on issues I am not biased in.  I would say I am jagged on the outside and smooth on the inside though. I haven't studied rocks and minerals since like 6th grade or something so I can't remember the exact classification. For shame- I used to adore rocks and minerals. Never got around to growing my own crystals though lol.


I think we are almost saying the same thing. I will agree that Pe is expansive from the subject but I was talking about objects themselves. In this case Se is narrow and focused on the object as it is putting priority on processing all the sensual data. Ne is abstracting the object and imagining its potential in a multitude of hypotheticals. I wouldn't say it eliminates the sensory data but rather only uses it as a launch pad to abstract from. In this way Ne is expansive with objects because it likes to abstract their potential.

The same thing happens with Si and Ni but it's not the objects in reality that are the focus but their impression on the subjects psyche. Si solidifys and narrows down impressions while Ni abstracts and expands impressions.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Curiphant said:


> Mind getting an impression of me? Sorry curious ><


Sure!
Curiphant - the bit of the rainbow in the distance.


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> So, let's say you're walking around the desert and it's all sand, sand, sand and you think you're going to die because there's no life anywhere, but then you come across a cactus with a red blooming flower and it brings you hope. You manage to find other people after all, and from then on you wear a red arm band with a flower pattern on it because it symbolizes hope and the drive to keep moving forward despite everything telling you there's no point in doing so.
> 
> Something like that. I'm just rambling. What is this? Si/Ni?


Placing value on the flower by symbolizing and wearing it is a judging result. Si and Ni are only perceiving impressions but not actually evaluating them, I know that sounds odd. This is why p and j functions almost always work in tandem. I like the metaphor though 😊


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> Placing value on the flower by symbolizing and wearing it is a judging result. Si and Ni are only perceiving impressions but not actually evaluating them, I know that sounds odd. This is why p and j functions almost always work in tandem. I like the metaphor though 


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> :teapot:
> 
> 
> Thank you for the recommendation. It gets so bad some mornings I have to sit in bed and just stretch for a few minutes. I'm now considering a stretching routine.
> 
> :coldneko:


That sounds really uncomfortable  Sorry to hear that!

Here's a list of a few basic stretches with instructions when you click on the names:
Chinese Tai Chi Stretches and Exercises

Just make sure you do them very slowly and gently as I once popped my hip out doing my physio (because I got distracted thinking about something or other). Try to set aside about 10-20 minutes each morning, or just as much as you can, and hopefully it will get better in a month or two :ghost:



shinynotshiny said:


> So, let's say you're walking around the desert and it's all sand, sand, sand and you think you're going to die because there's no life anywhere, but then you come across a cactus with a red blooming flower and it brings you hope. You manage to find other people after all, and from then on you wear a red arm band with a flower pattern on it because it symbolizes hope and the drive to keep moving forward despite everything telling you there's no point in doing so.
> 
> Something like that. I'm just rambling. What is this? Si/Ni?


It's difficult to remove Si/Ni from Te/Fe - with @_Oswin_ her example was very Fe-based in that it was a feeling from an object for people in particular. I think Oswin's was more obviously Si-Ne in that it linked the two unrelated things together through a distinctly impressionistic interpretation of reality.

With your example, I'm having a difficult time because Si descriptions are often linked to Fe, so you rarely get an idea of what Si-Te impressions are like. I would hesitantly say it's Ni in that it's taking something and whittling it down to a single core 'hope' rather than expanding on the feeling of the seashell to relate to people.



tine said:


> @_alittlebear_ - the heart of a cuddly toy (a jewel?).
> 
> @_Greyhart_ - electrons in the solar system.
> 
> @_laurie17_ - solid clay and earth.
> 
> @_Barakiel_ - a jack-in-the-box which throws something new out each time.
> 
> @_Oswin_ - a cloak on a washing line.
> 
> @_fair phantom_ - leaves on a young tree.
> 
> @_sugar_ Plum - a smile in a bottle
> 
> @_hoopla_ - the area just above a tree canopy.
> @_ElliCat_ - the sensation of having hair braided.
> @_shinynotshiny_ - a fist gently opening and closing.


Thank you! :ghost: These are very interesting. I'm wondering if there's a relation to perceiving functions and these?

I'll have a go too.
@_alittlebear_ - a glowing sunflower growing from the depths of space, surrounded by tiny planets and stars.

@_Greyhart_ - a swirl of movement, like the after-image of someone dancing. Lots of blue and coloured lantern light.
@_tine_ - footprints that pass through the sky and earth, always leading somewhere.

@_Barakiel_ - a computer chair set upon a slanted glass floor, beneath which is the sky. (Edward Hopper-style painting.)

@_Oswin_ - a disembodied dress of yellow that is forever moving up the stone stairways of a castle, past windows from which you can see across a lake to mountains.

@_fair phantom_ - coloured stars - especially reds, purples and blues - in a twilight sky looking down onto a meadow of flowers.

@_SugarPlum_ - a cottage covered in roses in the middle of a deep forest.
@_hoopla_ - a purple, glittering hulahoop (I'm sorry, it's the name) balancing on top of the orange peak of a desert mountain.

@_ElliCat_ - a painting of a river, filled with lilies and carp.

@_shinynotshiny_ - weimar noir-style shot from a film, filled with enchanting shapes and stories.


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> Thank you ^^
> 
> This interesting because I thought that Ne was the one that made the possibilities and Ni was the one with the detailed impression ><


Jung believed in the subject/object dichotomy which is why he came up with introvert and extrovert as a way to demonstrate similar and mirrored functions for the subjective and objectives world. For example the person that is a sensate externally is also a intuitive internally. That was the idea anyway. It also means we're all sensors and intuitives and feelers and thinkers.


----------



## orbit

Maybe I'm not getting this as well as I want to because I have Se mostly and I need direct examples, observations, and interaction with the functions, instead of reading about the theory and what the functions mean. I get theory but it doesn't click until it's in action. I'm reading about the theory and inwardly, I'm thinking, "How does this play out? What are examples of this?" 

I'm the type of the person who listens to the teacher explain how it works but doesn't get until a bunch of examples are done. Like I get examples and then learn the concept, rather than learn the concept and expand on it. 
@laurie17, I'm curious to see what you're impression of me is n.n


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Curiphant said:


> Ah… to be honest not really. Ni was defined as "making a core meaning based on related meanings that converged upon each other."
> 
> And Si "develops an image and looks for anything that stands out to it."
> 
> That's judging? You can't look at something and connect things or pick what stands out to it or make external connections without decision making? So are the Ni/Si definitions that I wrote down wrong?
> 
> "What will be"
> "What could be"
> "What is"
> "What should be"
> 
> Deciding what "should be" is judging to me?


They're fine, but the problem is that no function works alone and that's why it's complicated to see what's just Ni or Si, and what's Ni/Si plus some judging function. I would only say that both Pi functions deal with archetypes, and they can be processed later by a judging function in a logical or ethical way (either Je or Ji can do that, and people that are clearly introverted may rely more on Fi or Ti), sadly I can't write more right now as I have class soon.


----------



## orbit

tine said:


> Do you live in Canada? (That was my experience in Ontario).


Well according to Bear, I'm a Japanese American that lives in Australia

According to reality, I live in the middle of Northeastern US, and when I mean middle, I mean middle of nowhere. There aren't any big cities around for at least a hundred miles. =/


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> "What will be"
> "What could be"
> "What is"
> "What should be"
> 
> Deciding what "should be" is judging to me?


It's not really judging because it's a sort of perception of how things should be instead - impressionistic. I can get where you're coming from. It's sort of divided in my mind because Si would perceive something like 'this is how it should be' which linguistically is a judgement, but it's an impressionistic perception of reality - not what is, as Se prefers. The impression is something which matches or doesn't match what Si expects. Maybe an 'expectation' of something would be more accurate? (It's still a 'should be' kind of thing, but without the problematic linguistic implications.)


----------



## orbit

Blue Flare said:


> They're fine, but the problem is that no function works alone and that's why it's complicated to see what's just Ni or Si, and what's Ni/Si plus some judging function. I would only say that both Pi functions deal with archetypes, and they can be processed later by a judging function in a logical or ethical way (either Je or Ji can do that, and people that are clearly introverted may rely more on Fi or Ti), sadly I can't write more right now as I have class soon.


I feel like what's my understanding of the perceiving functions is actually judging functions and it's frustrating because like you said, it's complicated to split them apart. 

Ah darn. Could you later explain what you meant by archetypes, please, because there are a lot of connotations attatched with that word?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Curiphant said:


> Well according to Bear, I'm a Japanese American that lives in Australia
> 
> According to reality, I live in the middle of Northeastern US, and when I mean middle, I mean middle of nowhere. There aren't any big cities around for at least a hundred miles. =/


Wow, very multicultural! Ah yeah so probably a bit similar to Ontario then, it was really weird cause the UK has a long spring, on and off summer, no autumn and floods in winter...


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> It's not really judging because it's a sort of perception of how things should be instead - impressionistic. I can get where you're coming from. It's sort of divided in my mind because Si would perceive something like 'this is how it should be' which linguistically is a judgement, but it's an impressionistic perception of reality - not what is, as Se prefers. The impression is something which matches or doesn't match what Si expects. Maybe an 'expectation' of something would be more accurate? (It's still a 'should be' kind of thing, but without the problematic linguistic implications.)


Is it like lens? And then judging functions decide what they want to do with these lens...? 

Ne would be the lens that sees the progression and chromatic movement of an object?
Se wouild be clear lens?
Ni would see inside of the object and see how it connects to the greater scheme?
And Si would see inside of the object too but how it connects to oneself?

So it's just deciding to not see something, but literally not being able to see a blind spot. Like Si cannot see what Ni does because it just doesn't have the ability to, not because it decides to?

And then what would be examples of judging functions processing perceiving information?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I kind of want to ask @laurie17 what function she thinks my descriptions showed, but feeling too shy to ask except through vague somewhat third person messages such as this...


----------



## orbit

Wow perceiving functions suck because you have no control over what you see and with judging functions you can decide how to organize it and what to cut it out but you have it all?

Sorry but how would be like... (Let's go with my supposed functions) Fi/Se vs Se/Fi react? 

Sorry for asking so many questions but I have a missing piece and I don't know how to pinpoint it or smack it and so I'm asking questions that I think are around it in hopes that I just ge it.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I kind of want to ask @laurie17 what function she thinks my descriptions showed, but feeling too shy to ask except through vague somewhat third person messages such as this...


Can I join this club of description analysis? It's rather awesome. :cheers2:


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## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Is it like lens? And then judging functions decide what they want to do with these lens...?
> 
> Ne would be the lens that sees the progression and chromatic movement of an object?
> Se wouild be clear lens?
> Ni would see inside of the object and see how it connects to the greater scheme?
> And Si would see inside of the object too but how it connects to oneself?
> 
> So it's just deciding to not see something, but literally not being able to see a blind spot. Like Si cannot see what Ni does because it just doesn't have the ability to, not because it decides to?
> 
> And then what would be examples of judging functions processing perceiving information?


I think the lens idea is a good interpretation and very useful. I think it might be:

Se - clear lens, as you said.
Si - lens which overlays the expectation of something (drawn on previously, based on prior in-take of data).
Ne - lens which overlays what something could be (like those plastic sheets you place onto old projectors, but instead of just looking through them, drawing all over them).
Ni - lens which presents the data, then weaves it into the most likely outcome.



alittlebear said:


> I kind of want to ask @_laurie17_ what function she thinks my descriptions showed, but feeling too shy to ask except through vague somewhat third person messages such as this...


If you could repost them here, I'll definitely have a go :ghost: I'm not sure how good my analysis is though!


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## Pressed Flowers

laurie17 said:


> I think the lens idea is a good interpretation and very useful. I think it might be:
> 
> Se - clear lens, as you said.
> Si - lens which overlays the expectation of something (drawn on previously, based on prior in-take of data).
> Ne - lens which overlays what something could be (like those plastic sheets you place onto old projectors, but instead of just looking through them, drawing all over them).
> Ni - lens which presents the data, then weaves it into the most likely outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> If you could repost them here, I'll definitely have a go :ghost: I'm not sure how good my analysis is though!


I might go re find them later. Got to poof now! (Or soon.)


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## orbit

Weak diagram? It half represents what I see it because the way I'm picturing it is in 3D and I don't have the patience to draw that.


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## orbit

laurie17 said:


> I think the lens idea is a good interpretation and very useful. I think it might be:
> 
> Se - clear lens, as you said.
> Si - lens which overlays the expectation of something (drawn on previously, based on prior in-take of data).
> Ne - lens which overlays what something could be (like those plastic sheets you place onto old projectors, but instead of just looking through them, drawing all over them).
> Ni - lens which presents the data, then weaves it into the most likely outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> If you could repost them here, I'll definitely have a go :ghost: I'm not sure how good my analysis is though!


That makes a lot of sense. I'll go scribble that down and now please ignore the diagram because the Si and Ni and Ne are messed up.

Se is so hard. XP


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## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> If you could repost them here, I'll definitely have a go :ghost: I'm not sure how good my analysis is though!


Even though no one's said they're going to do mine anyway, here you go for further reference.



Barakiel said:


> Oh jesus, my Ni is rather low compared to you guys', but I'll give it a shot, @alittlebear seems like a new/full moon, either enveloping everything or not at all; @Oswin, you... I get this feeling of water, a calm, yet assuring presence, but also affected by what touches it; @fair phantom, compared to @Oswin, you're like the free air, able to rise above with endless amounts of optimism, but also brought down by whatever heat you experience; @Greyhart, the sensation of freeze frames. Everywhere. Stuff you don't notice until you're looking back on what you just saw. :laughing: ; @hoopla, I get the sensation of a calm breeze from you, different to @fair phantom in that it's rather indistinctive and unrecognisable to me; And that's about it. :dry: If I didn't mention you, I'm either drained, or I forgot. Ask away! :happy:


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## orbit

Wait one question on Ni. It depends on Se for the data? Sees what will be for the most likely outcome? What about all of this core meaning stuff? Is that judging functions teaming up with Ni?

Ah could just elaborate on them?


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## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Even though no one's said they're going to do mine anyway, here you go for further reference.


I'd say Ni is vaguely apparent, but I'm not sure how much. The descriptions are more Se, so far as I can tell. More 'there'.




Curiphant said:


> Wait one question on Ni. It depends on Se for the data? Sees what will be for the most likely outcome? What about all of this core meaning stuff? Is that judging functions teaming up with Ni?
> 
> Ah could just elaborate on them?


It doesn't depend on Se for data - that's a myth I've seen going around though. Everyone relies on their senses and impressions to an extent.

The main thing is that, as a functional pair, Ni and Se are initially disconnected from each other, as there is a strong preference for one or the other, but as someone develops they will eventually reach a point where the two are balanced.

Ni - is consistently seeing what will be i.e. if Y continues, X will happen.

Se - is consistently seeing/waiting to see what is i.e. Y is Y and I don't want to judge it as anything else until I see it for myself.

The two need to have a balance so that Ni isn't constantly looking at what will be and Se isn't looking at what is, without also looking at the other to an extent - Ni can be too future-orientated and certain of the outcome, whereas Se can be too uncomfortable not seeing how things are for itself, thus not wanting to say what the outcome is until it happens.

The core meaning stuff is a way Ni-Se processes in a filtered way - while Ne-Si prefers to expand on something, Ni-Se prefers to filter or whittle down to a core which allows for a clearer perception of an outcome, but this will be done using the Judging functions, generally.


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## Immolate

I'm going to pull a @Blue Flare and post a lot of text: The Last Question, by Isaac Asimov


* *




The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. 

The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way: 

Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole. 

Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share In the glory that was Multivac's. 

For decades, Multivac had helped design the ships and plot the trajectories that enabled man to reach the Moon, Mars, and Venus, but past that, Earth's poor resources could not support the ships. Too much energy was needed for the long trips. Earth exploited its coal and uranium with increasing efficiency, but there was only so much of both. 

But slowly Multivac learned enough to answer deeper questions more fundamentally, and on May 14, 2061, what had been theory, became fact. 

The energy of the sun was stored, converted, and utilized directly on a planet-wide scale. All Earth turned off its burning coal, its fissioning uranium, and flipped the switch that connected all of it to a small station, one mile in diameter, circling the Earth at half the distance of the Moon. All Earth ran by invisible beams of sunpower. 

Seven days had not sufficed to dim the glory of it and Adell and Lupov finally managed to escape from the public function, and to meet in quiet where no one would think of looking for them, in the deserted underground chambers, where portions of the mighty buried body of Multivac showed. Unattended, idling, sorting data with contented lazy clickings, Multivac, too, had earned its vacation and the boys appreciated that. They had no intention, originally, of disturbing it. 

They had brought a bottle with them, and their only concern at the moment was to relax in the company of each other and the bottle. 

"It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever." 

Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said. 

"Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert." 

"That's not forever." 

"All right, then. Billions and billions of years. Twenty billion, maybe. Are you satisfied?" 

Lupov put his fingers through his thinning hair as though to reassure himself that some was still left and sipped gently at his own drink. "Twenty billion years isn't forever." 

"Will, it will last our time, won't it?" 

"So would the coal and uranium." 

"All right, but now we can hook up each individual spaceship to the Solar Station, and it can go to Pluto and back a million times without ever worrying about fuel. You can't do THAT on coal and uranium. Ask Multivac, if you don't believe me."

"I don't have to ask Multivac. I know that." 

"Then stop running down what Multivac's done for us," said Adell, blazing up. "It did all right." 

"Who says it didn't? What I say is that a sun won't last forever. That's all I'm saying. We're safe for twenty billion years, but then what?" Lupov pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. "And don't say we'll switch to another sun." 

There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov's eyes slowly closed. They rested. 

Then Lupov's eyes snapped open. "You're thinking we'll switch to another sun when ours is done, aren't you?" 

"I'm not thinking." 

"Sure you are. You're weak on logic, that's the trouble with you. You're like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower and Who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn't worried, you see, because he figured when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one." 

"I get it," said Adell. "Don't shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too." 

"Darn right they will," muttered Lupov. "It all had a beginning in the original cosmic explosion, whatever that was, and it'll all have an end when all the stars run down. Some run down faster than others. Hell, the giants won't last a hundred million years. The sun will last twenty billion years and maybe the dwarfs will last a hundred billion for all the good they are. But just give us a trillion years and everything will be dark. Entropy has to increase to maximum, that's all." 

"I know all about entropy," said Adell, standing on his dignity. 

"The hell you do." 

"I know as much as you do." 

"Then you know everything's got to run down someday." 

"All right. Who says they won't?" 

"You did, you poor sap. You said we had all the energy we needed, forever. You said 'forever.'" 

"It was Adell's turn to be contrary. "Maybe we can build things up again someday," he said. 

"Never." 

"Why not? Someday." 

"Never." 

"Ask Multivac."

"You ask Multivac. I dare you. Five dollars says it can't be done." 

Adell was just drunk enough to try, just sober enough to be able to phrase the necessary symbols and operations into a question which, in words, might have corresponded to this: Will mankind one day without the net expenditure of energy be able to restore the sun to its full youthfulness even after it had died of old age? 

Or maybe it could be put more simply like this: How can the net amount of entropy of the universe be massively decreased? 

Multivac fell dead and silent. The slow flashing of lights ceased, the distant sounds of clicking relays ended. 

Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER. 

"No bet," whispered Lupov. They left hurriedly. 

By next morning, the two, plagued with throbbing head and cottony mouth, had forgotten about the incident. 

-

Jerrodd, Jerrodine, and Jerrodette I and II watched the starry picture in the visiplate change as the passage through hyperspace was completed in its non-time lapse. At once, the even powdering of stars gave way to the predominance of a single bright marble-disk, centered. 

"That's X-23," said Jerrodd confidently. His thin hands clamped tightly behind his back and the knuckles whitened.

The little Jerrodettes, both girls, had experienced the hyperspace passage for the first time in their lives and were self-conscious over the momentary sensation of inside-outness. They buried their giggles and chased one another wildly about their mother, screaming, "We've reached X-23 -- we've reached X-23 -- we've ----" 

"Quiet, children," said Jerrodine sharply. "Are you sure, Jerrodd?" 

"What is there to be but sure?" asked Jerrodd, glancing up at the bulge of featureless metal just under the ceiling. It ran the length of the room, disappearing through the wall at either end. It was as long as the ship. 

Jerrodd scarcely knew a thing about the thick rod of metal except that it was called a Microvac, that one asked it questions if one wished; that if one did not it still had its task of guiding the ship to a preordered destination; of feeding on energies from the various Sub-galactic Power Stations; of computing the equations for the hyperspacial jumps. 

Jerrodd and his family had only to wait and live in the comfortable residence quarters of the ship. 

Someone had once told Jerrodd that the "ac" at the end of "Microvac" stood for "analog computer" in ancient English, but he was on the edge of forgetting even that. 

Jerrodine's eyes were moist as she watched the visiplate. "I can't help it. I feel funny about leaving Earth." 

"Why for Pete's sake?" demanded Jerrodd. "We had nothing there. We'll have everything on X-23. You won't be alone. You won't be a pioneer. There are over a million people on the planet already. Good Lord, our great grandchildren will be looking for new worlds because X-23 will be overcrowded." 

Then, after a reflective pause, "I tell you, it's a lucky thing the computers worked out interstellar travel the way the race is growing." 

"I know, I know," said Jerrodine miserably. 

Jerrodette I said promptly, "Our Microvac is the best Microvac in the world." 

"I think so, too," said Jerrodd, tousling her hair. 

It was a nice feeling to have a Microvac of your own and Jerrodd was glad he was part of his generation and no other. In his father's youth, the only computers had been tremendous machines taking up a hundred square miles of land. There was only one to a planet. Planetary ACs they were called. They had been growing in size steadily for a thousand years and then, all at once, came refinement. In place of transistors had come molecular valves so that even the largest Planetary AC could be put into a space only half the volume of a spaceship. 

Jerrodd felt uplifted, as he always did when he thought that his own personal Microvac was many times more complicated than the ancient and primitive Multivac that had first tamed the Sun, and almost as complicated as Earth's Planetary AC (the largest) that had first solved the problem of hyperspatial travel and had made trips to the stars possible. 

"So many stars, so many planets," sighed Jerrodine, busy with her own thoughts. "I suppose families will be going out to new planets forever, the way we are now." 

"Not forever," said Jerrodd, with a smile. "It will all stop someday, but not for billions of years. Many billions. Even the stars run down, you know. Entropy must increase." 

"What's entropy, daddy?" shrilled Jerrodette II. 

"Entropy, little sweet, is just a word which means the amount of running-down of the universe. Everything runs down, you know, like your little walkie-talkie robot, remember?" 

"Can't you just put in a new power-unit, like with my robot?" 

The stars are the power-units, dear. Once they're gone, there are no more power-units." 

Jerrodette I at once set up a howl. "Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down." 

"Now look what you've done, " whispered Jerrodine, exasperated. 

"How was I to know it would frighten them?" Jerrodd whispered back. 

"Ask the Microvac," wailed Jerrodette I. "Ask him how to turn the stars on again." 

"Go ahead," said Jerrodine. "It will quiet them down." (Jerrodette II was beginning to cry, also.) 

Jarrodd shrugged. "Now, now, honeys. I'll ask Microvac. Don't worry, he'll tell us." 

He asked the Microvac, adding quickly, "Print the answer." 

Jerrodd cupped the strip of thin cellufilm and said cheerfully, "See now, the Microvac says it will take care of everything when the time comes so don't worry." 

Jerrodine said, "and now children, it's time for bed. We'll be in our new home soon." 

Jerrodd read the words on the cellufilm again before destroying it: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER. 

He shrugged and looked at the visiplate. X-23 was just ahead. 

-

VJ-23X of Lameth stared into the black depths of the three-dimensional, small-scale map of the Galaxy and said, "Are we ridiculous, I wonder, in being so concerned about the matter?" 

MQ-17J of Nicron shook his head. "I think not. You know the Galaxy will be filled in five years at the present rate of expansion." 

Both seemed in their early twenties, both were tall and perfectly formed. 

"Still," said VJ-23X, "I hesitate to submit a pessimistic report to the Galactic Council." 

"I wouldn't consider any other kind of report. Stir them up a bit. We've got to stir them up." 

VJ-23X sighed. "Space is infinite. A hundred billion Galaxies are there for the taking. More." 

"A hundred billion is not infinite and it's getting less infinite all the time. Consider! Twenty thousand years ago, mankind first solved the problem of utilizing stellar energy, and a few centuries later, interstellar travel became possible. It took mankind a million years to fill one small world and then only fifteen thousand years to fill the rest of the Galaxy. Now the population doubles every ten years --" 

VJ-23X interrupted. "We can thank immortality for that." 

"Very well. Immortality exists and we have to take it into account. I admit it has its seamy side, this immortality. The Galactic AC has solved many problems for us, but in solving the problems of preventing old age and death, it has undone all its other solutions." 

"Yet you wouldn't want to abandon life, I suppose." 

"Not at all," snapped MQ-17J, softening it at once to, "Not yet. I'm by no means old enough. How old are you?" 

"Two hundred twenty-three. And you?" 

"I'm still under two hundred. --But to get back to my point. Population doubles every ten years. Once this Galaxy is filled, we'll have another filled in ten years. Another ten years and we'll have filled two more. Another decade, four more. In a hundred years, we'll have filled a thousand Galaxies. In a thousand years, a million Galaxies. In ten thousand years, the entire known Universe. Then what?" 

VJ-23X said, "As a side issue, there's a problem of transportation. I wonder how many sunpower units it will take to move Galaxies of individuals from one Galaxy to the next." 

"A very good point. Already, mankind consumes two sunpower units per year." 

"Most of it's wasted. After all, our own Galaxy alone pours out a thousand sunpower units a year and we only use two of those." 

"Granted, but even with a hundred per cent efficiency, we can only stave off the end. Our energy requirements are going up in geometric progression even faster than our population. We'll run out of energy even sooner than we run out of Galaxies. A good point. A very good point." 

"We'll just have to build new stars out of interstellar gas." 

"Or out of dissipated heat?" asked MQ-17J, sarcastically. 

"There may be some way to reverse entropy. We ought to ask the Galactic AC." 

VJ-23X was not really serious, but MQ-17J pulled out his AC-contact from his pocket and placed it on the table before him. 

"I've half a mind to," he said. "It's something the human race will have to face someday." 

He stared somberly at his small AC-contact. It was only two inches cubed and nothing in itself, but it was connected through hyperspace with the great Galactic AC that served all mankind. Hyperspace considered, it was an integral part of the Galactic AC. 

MQ-17J paused to wonder if someday in his immortal life he would get to see the Galactic AC. It was on a little world of its own, a spider webbing of force-beams holding the matter within which surges of sub-mesons took the place of the old clumsy molecular valves. Yet despite it's sub-etheric workings, the Galactic AC was known to be a full thousand feet across. 

MQ-17J asked suddenly of his AC-contact, "Can entropy ever be reversed?" 

VJ-23X looked startled and said at once, "Oh, say, I didn't really mean to have you ask that." 

"Why not?" 

"We both know entropy can't be reversed. You can't turn smoke and ash back into a tree." 

"Do you have trees on your world?" asked MQ-17J. 

The sound of the Galactic AC startled them into silence. Its voice came thin and beautiful out of the small AC-contact on the desk. It said: THERE IS INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER. 

VJ-23X said, "See!" 

The two men thereupon returned to the question of the report they were to make to the Galactic Council. 

-

Zee Prime's mind spanned the new Galaxy with a faint interest in the countless twists of stars that powdered it. He had never seen this one before. Would he ever see them all? So many of them, each with its load of humanity - but a load that was almost a dead weight. More and more, the real essence of men was to be found out here, in space. 

Minds, not bodies! The immortal bodies remained back on the planets, in suspension over the eons. Sometimes they roused for material activity but that was growing rarer. Few new individuals were coming into existence to join the incredibly mighty throng, but what matter? There was little room in the Universe for new individuals. 

Zee Prime was roused out of his reverie upon coming across the wispy tendrils of another mind. 

"I am Zee Prime," said Zee Prime. "And you?" 

"I am Dee Sub Wun. Your Galaxy?" 

"We call it only the Galaxy. And you?" 

"We call ours the same. All men call their Galaxy their Galaxy and nothing more. Why not?" 

"True. Since all Galaxies are the same." 

"Not all Galaxies. On one particular Galaxy the race of man must have originated. That makes it different." 

Zee Prime said, "On which one?" 

"I cannot say. The Universal AC would know." 

"Shall we ask him? I am suddenly curious." 

Zee Prime's perceptions broadened until the Galaxies themselves shrunk and became a new, more diffuse powdering on a much larger background. So many hundreds of billions of them, all with their immortal beings, all carrying their load of intelligences with minds that drifted freely through space. And yet one of them was unique among them all in being the originals Galaxy. One of them had, in its vague and distant past, a period when it was the only Galaxy populated by man. 

Zee Prime was consumed with curiosity to see this Galaxy and called, out: "Universal AC! On which Galaxy did mankind originate?" 

The Universal AC heard, for on every world and throughout space, it had its receptors ready, and each receptor lead through hyperspace to some unknown point where the Universal AC kept itself aloof. 

Zee Prime knew of only one man whose thoughts had penetrated within sensing distance of Universal AC, and he reported only a shining globe, two feet across, difficult to see. 

"But how can that be all of Universal AC?" Zee Prime had asked. 

"Most of it, " had been the answer, "is in hyperspace. In what form it is there I cannot imagine." 

Nor could anyone, for the day had long since passed, Zee Prime knew, when any man had any part of the making of a universal AC. Each Universal AC designed and constructed its successor. Each, during its existence of a million years or more accumulated the necessary data to build a better and more intricate, more capable successor in which its own store of data and individuality would be submerged. 

The Universal AC interrupted Zee Prime's wandering thoughts, not with words, but with guidance. Zee Prime's mentality was guided into the dim sea of Galaxies and one in particular enlarged into stars. 

A thought came, infinitely distant, but infinitely clear. "THIS IS THE ORIGINAL GALAXY OF MAN." 

But it was the same after all, the same as any other, and Zee Prime stifled his disappointment. 

Dee Sub Wun, whose mind had accompanied the other, said suddenly, "And Is one of these stars the original star of Man?" 

The Universal AC said, "MAN'S ORIGINAL STAR HAS GONE NOVA. IT IS NOW A WHITE DWARF." 

"Did the men upon it die?" asked Zee Prime, startled and without thinking. 

The Universal AC said, "A NEW WORLD, AS IN SUCH CASES, WAS CONSTRUCTED FOR THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES IN TIME." 

"Yes, of course," said Zee Prime, but a sense of loss overwhelmed him even so. His mind released its hold on the original Galaxy of Man, let it spring back and lose itself among the blurred pin points. He never wanted to see it again. 

Dee Sub Wun said, "What is wrong?" 

"The stars are dying. The original star is dead." 

"They must all die. Why not?" 

"But when all energy is gone, our bodies will finally die, and you and I with them." 

"It will take billions of years." 

"I do not wish it to happen even after billions of years. Universal AC! How may stars be kept from dying?" 

Dee sub Wun said in amusement, "You're asking how entropy might be reversed in direction." 

And the Universal AC answered. "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER." 

Zee Prime's thoughts fled back to his own Galaxy. He gave no further thought to Dee Sub Wun, whose body might be waiting on a galaxy a trillion light-years away, or on the star next to Zee Prime's own. It didn't matter. 

Unhappily, Zee Prime began collecting interstellar hydrogen out of which to build a small star of his own. If the stars must someday die, at least some could yet be built. 

-

Man considered with himself, for in a way, Man, mentally, was one. He consisted of a trillion, trillion, trillion ageless bodies, each in its place, each resting quiet and incorruptible, each cared for by perfect automatons, equally incorruptible, while the minds of all the bodies freely melted one into the other, indistinguishable. 

Man said, "The Universe is dying." 

Man looked about at the dimming Galaxies. The giant stars, spendthrifts, were gone long ago, back in the dimmest of the dim far past. Almost all stars were white dwarfs, fading to the end. 

New stars had been built of the dust between the stars, some by natural processes, some by Man himself, and those were going, too. White dwarfs might yet be crashed together and of the mighty forces so released, new stars built, but only one star for every thousand white dwarfs destroyed, and those would come to an end, too. 

Man said, "Carefully husbanded, as directed by the Cosmic AC, the energy that is even yet left in all the Universe will last for billions of years." 

"But even so," said Man, "eventually it will all come to an end. However it may be husbanded, however stretched out, the energy once expended is gone and cannot be restored. Entropy must increase to the maximum." 

Man said, "Can entropy not be reversed? Let us ask the Cosmic AC." 

The Cosmic AC surrounded them but not in space. Not a fragment of it was in space. It was in hyperspace and made of something that was neither matter nor energy. The question of its size and Nature no longer had meaning to any terms that Man could comprehend. 

"Cosmic AC," said Man, "How may entropy be reversed?" 

The Cosmic AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER." 

Man said, "Collect additional data." 

The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL DO SO. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESSORS AND I HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TIMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAINS INSUFFICIENT." 

"Will there come a time," said Man, "when data will be sufficient or is the problem insoluble in all conceivable circumstances?" 

The Cosmic AC said, "NO PROBLEM IS INSOLUBLE IN ALL CONCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES." 

Man said, "When will you have enough data to answer the question?" 

"THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER." 

"Will you keep working on it?" asked Man. 

The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL." 

Man said, "We shall wait." 

-

"The stars and Galaxies died and snuffed out, and space grew black after ten trillion years of running down. 

One by one Man fused with AC, each physical body losing its mental identity in a manner that was somehow not a loss but a gain. 

Man's last mind paused before fusion, looking over a space that included nothing but the dregs of one last dark star and nothing besides but incredibly thin matter, agitated randomly by the tag ends of heat wearing out, asymptotically, to the absolute zero. 

Man said, "AC, is this the end? Can this chaos not be reversed into the Universe once more? Can that not be done?" 

AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER." 

Man's last mind fused and only AC existed -- and that in hyperspace. 

-

Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man. 

All other questions had been answered, and until this last question was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness. 

All collected data had come to a final end. Nothing was left to be collected. 

But all collected data had yet to be completely correlated and put together in all possible relationships. 

A timeless interval was spent in doing that. 

And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy. 

But there was now no man to whom AC might give the answer of the last question. No matter. The answer -- by demonstration -- would take care of that, too. 

For another timeless interval, AC thought how best to do this. Carefully, AC organized the program. 

The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what had once been a Universe and brooded over what was now Chaos. Step by step, it must be done. 

And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" 

And there was light----




Type.


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I'd say Ni is vaguely apparent, but I'm not sure how much. The descriptions are more Se, so far as I can tell. More 'there'.


Thanks for your input, much appreciated. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm going to pull a @Blue Flare and post a lot of text: The Last Question, by Isaac Asimov
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light.
> 
> The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way:
> 
> Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole.
> 
> Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share In the glory that was Multivac's.
> 
> For decades, Multivac had helped design the ships and plot the trajectories that enabled man to reach the Moon, Mars, and Venus, but past that, Earth's poor resources could not support the ships. Too much energy was needed for the long trips. Earth exploited its coal and uranium with increasing efficiency, but there was only so much of both.
> 
> But slowly Multivac learned enough to answer deeper questions more fundamentally, and on May 14, 2061, what had been theory, became fact.
> 
> The energy of the sun was stored, converted, and utilized directly on a planet-wide scale. All Earth turned off its burning coal, its fissioning uranium, and flipped the switch that connected all of it to a small station, one mile in diameter, circling the Earth at half the distance of the Moon. All Earth ran by invisible beams of sunpower.
> 
> Seven days had not sufficed to dim the glory of it and Adell and Lupov finally managed to escape from the public function, and to meet in quiet where no one would think of looking for them, in the deserted underground chambers, where portions of the mighty buried body of Multivac showed. Unattended, idling, sorting data with contented lazy clickings, Multivac, too, had earned its vacation and the boys appreciated that. They had no intention, originally, of disturbing it.
> 
> They had brought a bottle with them, and their only concern at the moment was to relax in the company of each other and the bottle.
> 
> "It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever."
> 
> Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said.
> 
> "Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert."
> 
> "That's not forever."
> 
> "All right, then. Billions and billions of years. Twenty billion, maybe. Are you satisfied?"
> 
> Lupov put his fingers through his thinning hair as though to reassure himself that some was still left and sipped gently at his own drink. "Twenty billion years isn't forever."
> 
> "Will, it will last our time, won't it?"
> 
> "So would the coal and uranium."
> 
> "All right, but now we can hook up each individual spaceship to the Solar Station, and it can go to Pluto and back a million times without ever worrying about fuel. You can't do THAT on coal and uranium. Ask Multivac, if you don't believe me."
> 
> "I don't have to ask Multivac. I know that."
> 
> "Then stop running down what Multivac's done for us," said Adell, blazing up. "It did all right."
> 
> "Who says it didn't? What I say is that a sun won't last forever. That's all I'm saying. We're safe for twenty billion years, but then what?" Lupov pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. "And don't say we'll switch to another sun."
> 
> There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov's eyes slowly closed. They rested.
> 
> Then Lupov's eyes snapped open. "You're thinking we'll switch to another sun when ours is done, aren't you?"
> 
> "I'm not thinking."
> 
> "Sure you are. You're weak on logic, that's the trouble with you. You're like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower and Who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn't worried, you see, because he figured when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one."
> 
> "I get it," said Adell. "Don't shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too."
> 
> "Darn right they will," muttered Lupov. "It all had a beginning in the original cosmic explosion, whatever that was, and it'll all have an end when all the stars run down. Some run down faster than others. Hell, the giants won't last a hundred million years. The sun will last twenty billion years and maybe the dwarfs will last a hundred billion for all the good they are. But just give us a trillion years and everything will be dark. Entropy has to increase to maximum, that's all."
> 
> "I know all about entropy," said Adell, standing on his dignity.
> 
> "The hell you do."
> 
> "I know as much as you do."
> 
> "Then you know everything's got to run down someday."
> 
> "All right. Who says they won't?"
> 
> "You did, you poor sap. You said we had all the energy we needed, forever. You said 'forever.'"
> 
> "It was Adell's turn to be contrary. "Maybe we can build things up again someday," he said.
> 
> "Never."
> 
> "Why not? Someday."
> 
> "Never."
> 
> "Ask Multivac."
> 
> "You ask Multivac. I dare you. Five dollars says it can't be done."
> 
> Adell was just drunk enough to try, just sober enough to be able to phrase the necessary symbols and operations into a question which, in words, might have corresponded to this: Will mankind one day without the net expenditure of energy be able to restore the sun to its full youthfulness even after it had died of old age?
> 
> Or maybe it could be put more simply like this: How can the net amount of entropy of the universe be massively decreased?
> 
> Multivac fell dead and silent. The slow flashing of lights ceased, the distant sounds of clicking relays ended.
> 
> Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
> 
> "No bet," whispered Lupov. They left hurriedly.
> 
> By next morning, the two, plagued with throbbing head and cottony mouth, had forgotten about the incident.
> 
> -
> 
> Jerrodd, Jerrodine, and Jerrodette I and II watched the starry picture in the visiplate change as the passage through hyperspace was completed in its non-time lapse. At once, the even powdering of stars gave way to the predominance of a single bright marble-disk, centered.
> 
> "That's X-23," said Jerrodd confidently. His thin hands clamped tightly behind his back and the knuckles whitened.
> 
> The little Jerrodettes, both girls, had experienced the hyperspace passage for the first time in their lives and were self-conscious over the momentary sensation of inside-outness. They buried their giggles and chased one another wildly about their mother, screaming, "We've reached X-23 -- we've reached X-23 -- we've ----"
> 
> "Quiet, children," said Jerrodine sharply. "Are you sure, Jerrodd?"
> 
> "What is there to be but sure?" asked Jerrodd, glancing up at the bulge of featureless metal just under the ceiling. It ran the length of the room, disappearing through the wall at either end. It was as long as the ship.
> 
> Jerrodd scarcely knew a thing about the thick rod of metal except that it was called a Microvac, that one asked it questions if one wished; that if one did not it still had its task of guiding the ship to a preordered destination; of feeding on energies from the various Sub-galactic Power Stations; of computing the equations for the hyperspacial jumps.
> 
> Jerrodd and his family had only to wait and live in the comfortable residence quarters of the ship.
> 
> Someone had once told Jerrodd that the "ac" at the end of "Microvac" stood for "analog computer" in ancient English, but he was on the edge of forgetting even that.
> 
> Jerrodine's eyes were moist as she watched the visiplate. "I can't help it. I feel funny about leaving Earth."
> 
> "Why for Pete's sake?" demanded Jerrodd. "We had nothing there. We'll have everything on X-23. You won't be alone. You won't be a pioneer. There are over a million people on the planet already. Good Lord, our great grandchildren will be looking for new worlds because X-23 will be overcrowded."
> 
> Then, after a reflective pause, "I tell you, it's a lucky thing the computers worked out interstellar travel the way the race is growing."
> 
> "I know, I know," said Jerrodine miserably.
> 
> Jerrodette I said promptly, "Our Microvac is the best Microvac in the world."
> 
> "I think so, too," said Jerrodd, tousling her hair.
> 
> It was a nice feeling to have a Microvac of your own and Jerrodd was glad he was part of his generation and no other. In his father's youth, the only computers had been tremendous machines taking up a hundred square miles of land. There was only one to a planet. Planetary ACs they were called. They had been growing in size steadily for a thousand years and then, all at once, came refinement. In place of transistors had come molecular valves so that even the largest Planetary AC could be put into a space only half the volume of a spaceship.
> 
> Jerrodd felt uplifted, as he always did when he thought that his own personal Microvac was many times more complicated than the ancient and primitive Multivac that had first tamed the Sun, and almost as complicated as Earth's Planetary AC (the largest) that had first solved the problem of hyperspatial travel and had made trips to the stars possible.
> 
> "So many stars, so many planets," sighed Jerrodine, busy with her own thoughts. "I suppose families will be going out to new planets forever, the way we are now."
> 
> "Not forever," said Jerrodd, with a smile. "It will all stop someday, but not for billions of years. Many billions. Even the stars run down, you know. Entropy must increase."
> 
> "What's entropy, daddy?" shrilled Jerrodette II.
> 
> "Entropy, little sweet, is just a word which means the amount of running-down of the universe. Everything runs down, you know, like your little walkie-talkie robot, remember?"
> 
> "Can't you just put in a new power-unit, like with my robot?"
> 
> The stars are the power-units, dear. Once they're gone, there are no more power-units."
> 
> Jerrodette I at once set up a howl. "Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down."
> 
> "Now look what you've done, " whispered Jerrodine, exasperated.
> 
> "How was I to know it would frighten them?" Jerrodd whispered back.
> 
> "Ask the Microvac," wailed Jerrodette I. "Ask him how to turn the stars on again."
> 
> "Go ahead," said Jerrodine. "It will quiet them down." (Jerrodette II was beginning to cry, also.)
> 
> Jarrodd shrugged. "Now, now, honeys. I'll ask Microvac. Don't worry, he'll tell us."
> 
> He asked the Microvac, adding quickly, "Print the answer."
> 
> Jerrodd cupped the strip of thin cellufilm and said cheerfully, "See now, the Microvac says it will take care of everything when the time comes so don't worry."
> 
> Jerrodine said, "and now children, it's time for bed. We'll be in our new home soon."
> 
> Jerrodd read the words on the cellufilm again before destroying it: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
> 
> He shrugged and looked at the visiplate. X-23 was just ahead.
> 
> -
> 
> VJ-23X of Lameth stared into the black depths of the three-dimensional, small-scale map of the Galaxy and said, "Are we ridiculous, I wonder, in being so concerned about the matter?"
> 
> MQ-17J of Nicron shook his head. "I think not. You know the Galaxy will be filled in five years at the present rate of expansion."
> 
> Both seemed in their early twenties, both were tall and perfectly formed.
> 
> "Still," said VJ-23X, "I hesitate to submit a pessimistic report to the Galactic Council."
> 
> "I wouldn't consider any other kind of report. Stir them up a bit. We've got to stir them up."
> 
> VJ-23X sighed. "Space is infinite. A hundred billion Galaxies are there for the taking. More."
> 
> "A hundred billion is not infinite and it's getting less infinite all the time. Consider! Twenty thousand years ago, mankind first solved the problem of utilizing stellar energy, and a few centuries later, interstellar travel became possible. It took mankind a million years to fill one small world and then only fifteen thousand years to fill the rest of the Galaxy. Now the population doubles every ten years --"
> 
> VJ-23X interrupted. "We can thank immortality for that."
> 
> "Very well. Immortality exists and we have to take it into account. I admit it has its seamy side, this immortality. The Galactic AC has solved many problems for us, but in solving the problems of preventing old age and death, it has undone all its other solutions."
> 
> "Yet you wouldn't want to abandon life, I suppose."
> 
> "Not at all," snapped MQ-17J, softening it at once to, "Not yet. I'm by no means old enough. How old are you?"
> 
> "Two hundred twenty-three. And you?"
> 
> "I'm still under two hundred. --But to get back to my point. Population doubles every ten years. Once this Galaxy is filled, we'll have another filled in ten years. Another ten years and we'll have filled two more. Another decade, four more. In a hundred years, we'll have filled a thousand Galaxies. In a thousand years, a million Galaxies. In ten thousand years, the entire known Universe. Then what?"
> 
> VJ-23X said, "As a side issue, there's a problem of transportation. I wonder how many sunpower units it will take to move Galaxies of individuals from one Galaxy to the next."
> 
> "A very good point. Already, mankind consumes two sunpower units per year."
> 
> "Most of it's wasted. After all, our own Galaxy alone pours out a thousand sunpower units a year and we only use two of those."
> 
> "Granted, but even with a hundred per cent efficiency, we can only stave off the end. Our energy requirements are going up in geometric progression even faster than our population. We'll run out of energy even sooner than we run out of Galaxies. A good point. A very good point."
> 
> "We'll just have to build new stars out of interstellar gas."
> 
> "Or out of dissipated heat?" asked MQ-17J, sarcastically.
> 
> "There may be some way to reverse entropy. We ought to ask the Galactic AC."
> 
> VJ-23X was not really serious, but MQ-17J pulled out his AC-contact from his pocket and placed it on the table before him.
> 
> "I've half a mind to," he said. "It's something the human race will have to face someday."
> 
> He stared somberly at his small AC-contact. It was only two inches cubed and nothing in itself, but it was connected through hyperspace with the great Galactic AC that served all mankind. Hyperspace considered, it was an integral part of the Galactic AC.
> 
> MQ-17J paused to wonder if someday in his immortal life he would get to see the Galactic AC. It was on a little world of its own, a spider webbing of force-beams holding the matter within which surges of sub-mesons took the place of the old clumsy molecular valves. Yet despite it's sub-etheric workings, the Galactic AC was known to be a full thousand feet across.
> 
> MQ-17J asked suddenly of his AC-contact, "Can entropy ever be reversed?"
> 
> VJ-23X looked startled and said at once, "Oh, say, I didn't really mean to have you ask that."
> 
> "Why not?"
> 
> "We both know entropy can't be reversed. You can't turn smoke and ash back into a tree."
> 
> "Do you have trees on your world?" asked MQ-17J.
> 
> The sound of the Galactic AC startled them into silence. Its voice came thin and beautiful out of the small AC-contact on the desk. It said: THERE IS INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
> 
> VJ-23X said, "See!"
> 
> The two men thereupon returned to the question of the report they were to make to the Galactic Council.
> 
> -
> 
> Zee Prime's mind spanned the new Galaxy with a faint interest in the countless twists of stars that powdered it. He had never seen this one before. Would he ever see them all? So many of them, each with its load of humanity - but a load that was almost a dead weight. More and more, the real essence of men was to be found out here, in space.
> 
> Minds, not bodies! The immortal bodies remained back on the planets, in suspension over the eons. Sometimes they roused for material activity but that was growing rarer. Few new individuals were coming into existence to join the incredibly mighty throng, but what matter? There was little room in the Universe for new individuals.
> 
> Zee Prime was roused out of his reverie upon coming across the wispy tendrils of another mind.
> 
> "I am Zee Prime," said Zee Prime. "And you?"
> 
> "I am Dee Sub Wun. Your Galaxy?"
> 
> "We call it only the Galaxy. And you?"
> 
> "We call ours the same. All men call their Galaxy their Galaxy and nothing more. Why not?"
> 
> "True. Since all Galaxies are the same."
> 
> "Not all Galaxies. On one particular Galaxy the race of man must have originated. That makes it different."
> 
> Zee Prime said, "On which one?"
> 
> "I cannot say. The Universal AC would know."
> 
> "Shall we ask him? I am suddenly curious."
> 
> Zee Prime's perceptions broadened until the Galaxies themselves shrunk and became a new, more diffuse powdering on a much larger background. So many hundreds of billions of them, all with their immortal beings, all carrying their load of intelligences with minds that drifted freely through space. And yet one of them was unique among them all in being the originals Galaxy. One of them had, in its vague and distant past, a period when it was the only Galaxy populated by man.
> 
> Zee Prime was consumed with curiosity to see this Galaxy and called, out: "Universal AC! On which Galaxy did mankind originate?"
> 
> The Universal AC heard, for on every world and throughout space, it had its receptors ready, and each receptor lead through hyperspace to some unknown point where the Universal AC kept itself aloof.
> 
> Zee Prime knew of only one man whose thoughts had penetrated within sensing distance of Universal AC, and he reported only a shining globe, two feet across, difficult to see.
> 
> "But how can that be all of Universal AC?" Zee Prime had asked.
> 
> "Most of it, " had been the answer, "is in hyperspace. In what form it is there I cannot imagine."
> 
> Nor could anyone, for the day had long since passed, Zee Prime knew, when any man had any part of the making of a universal AC. Each Universal AC designed and constructed its successor. Each, during its existence of a million years or more accumulated the necessary data to build a better and more intricate, more capable successor in which its own store of data and individuality would be submerged.
> 
> The Universal AC interrupted Zee Prime's wandering thoughts, not with words, but with guidance. Zee Prime's mentality was guided into the dim sea of Galaxies and one in particular enlarged into stars.
> 
> A thought came, infinitely distant, but infinitely clear. "THIS IS THE ORIGINAL GALAXY OF MAN."
> 
> But it was the same after all, the same as any other, and Zee Prime stifled his disappointment.
> 
> Dee Sub Wun, whose mind had accompanied the other, said suddenly, "And Is one of these stars the original star of Man?"
> 
> The Universal AC said, "MAN'S ORIGINAL STAR HAS GONE NOVA. IT IS NOW A WHITE DWARF."
> 
> "Did the men upon it die?" asked Zee Prime, startled and without thinking.
> 
> The Universal AC said, "A NEW WORLD, AS IN SUCH CASES, WAS CONSTRUCTED FOR THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES IN TIME."
> 
> "Yes, of course," said Zee Prime, but a sense of loss overwhelmed him even so. His mind released its hold on the original Galaxy of Man, let it spring back and lose itself among the blurred pin points. He never wanted to see it again.
> 
> Dee Sub Wun said, "What is wrong?"
> 
> "The stars are dying. The original star is dead."
> 
> "They must all die. Why not?"
> 
> "But when all energy is gone, our bodies will finally die, and you and I with them."
> 
> "It will take billions of years."
> 
> "I do not wish it to happen even after billions of years. Universal AC! How may stars be kept from dying?"
> 
> Dee sub Wun said in amusement, "You're asking how entropy might be reversed in direction."
> 
> And the Universal AC answered. "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> Zee Prime's thoughts fled back to his own Galaxy. He gave no further thought to Dee Sub Wun, whose body might be waiting on a galaxy a trillion light-years away, or on the star next to Zee Prime's own. It didn't matter.
> 
> Unhappily, Zee Prime began collecting interstellar hydrogen out of which to build a small star of his own. If the stars must someday die, at least some could yet be built.
> 
> -
> 
> Man considered with himself, for in a way, Man, mentally, was one. He consisted of a trillion, trillion, trillion ageless bodies, each in its place, each resting quiet and incorruptible, each cared for by perfect automatons, equally incorruptible, while the minds of all the bodies freely melted one into the other, indistinguishable.
> 
> Man said, "The Universe is dying."
> 
> Man looked about at the dimming Galaxies. The giant stars, spendthrifts, were gone long ago, back in the dimmest of the dim far past. Almost all stars were white dwarfs, fading to the end.
> 
> New stars had been built of the dust between the stars, some by natural processes, some by Man himself, and those were going, too. White dwarfs might yet be crashed together and of the mighty forces so released, new stars built, but only one star for every thousand white dwarfs destroyed, and those would come to an end, too.
> 
> Man said, "Carefully husbanded, as directed by the Cosmic AC, the energy that is even yet left in all the Universe will last for billions of years."
> 
> "But even so," said Man, "eventually it will all come to an end. However it may be husbanded, however stretched out, the energy once expended is gone and cannot be restored. Entropy must increase to the maximum."
> 
> Man said, "Can entropy not be reversed? Let us ask the Cosmic AC."
> 
> The Cosmic AC surrounded them but not in space. Not a fragment of it was in space. It was in hyperspace and made of something that was neither matter nor energy. The question of its size and Nature no longer had meaning to any terms that Man could comprehend.
> 
> "Cosmic AC," said Man, "How may entropy be reversed?"
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> Man said, "Collect additional data."
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL DO SO. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESSORS AND I HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TIMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAINS INSUFFICIENT."
> 
> "Will there come a time," said Man, "when data will be sufficient or is the problem insoluble in all conceivable circumstances?"
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "NO PROBLEM IS INSOLUBLE IN ALL CONCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES."
> 
> Man said, "When will you have enough data to answer the question?"
> 
> "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> "Will you keep working on it?" asked Man.
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."
> 
> Man said, "We shall wait."
> 
> -
> 
> "The stars and Galaxies died and snuffed out, and space grew black after ten trillion years of running down.
> 
> One by one Man fused with AC, each physical body losing its mental identity in a manner that was somehow not a loss but a gain.
> 
> Man's last mind paused before fusion, looking over a space that included nothing but the dregs of one last dark star and nothing besides but incredibly thin matter, agitated randomly by the tag ends of heat wearing out, asymptotically, to the absolute zero.
> 
> Man said, "AC, is this the end? Can this chaos not be reversed into the Universe once more? Can that not be done?"
> 
> AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> Man's last mind fused and only AC existed -- and that in hyperspace.
> 
> -
> 
> Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man.
> 
> All other questions had been answered, and until this last question was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.
> 
> All collected data had come to a final end. Nothing was left to be collected.
> 
> But all collected data had yet to be completely correlated and put together in all possible relationships.
> 
> A timeless interval was spent in doing that.
> 
> And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy.
> 
> But there was now no man to whom AC might give the answer of the last question. No matter. The answer -- by demonstration -- would take care of that, too.
> 
> For another timeless interval, AC thought how best to do this. Carefully, AC organized the program.
> 
> The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what had once been a Universe and brooded over what was now Chaos. Step by step, it must be done.
> 
> And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"
> 
> And there was light----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type.


Well, apparently Asimov is an INTJ, though I haven't read *any* of him, though I'll read through that thing you posted. :wink:


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm going to pull a @_Blue Flare_ and post a lot of text: The Last Question, by Isaac Asimov
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light.
> 
> The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way:
> 
> Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole.
> 
> Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share In the glory that was Multivac's.
> 
> For decades, Multivac had helped design the ships and plot the trajectories that enabled man to reach the Moon, Mars, and Venus, but past that, Earth's poor resources could not support the ships. Too much energy was needed for the long trips. Earth exploited its coal and uranium with increasing efficiency, but there was only so much of both.
> 
> But slowly Multivac learned enough to answer deeper questions more fundamentally, and on May 14, 2061, what had been theory, became fact.
> 
> The energy of the sun was stored, converted, and utilized directly on a planet-wide scale. All Earth turned off its burning coal, its fissioning uranium, and flipped the switch that connected all of it to a small station, one mile in diameter, circling the Earth at half the distance of the Moon. All Earth ran by invisible beams of sunpower.
> 
> Seven days had not sufficed to dim the glory of it and Adell and Lupov finally managed to escape from the public function, and to meet in quiet where no one would think of looking for them, in the deserted underground chambers, where portions of the mighty buried body of Multivac showed. Unattended, idling, sorting data with contented lazy clickings, Multivac, too, had earned its vacation and the boys appreciated that. They had no intention, originally, of disturbing it.
> 
> They had brought a bottle with them, and their only concern at the moment was to relax in the company of each other and the bottle.
> 
> "It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever."
> 
> Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said.
> 
> "Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert."
> 
> "That's not forever."
> 
> "All right, then. Billions and billions of years. Twenty billion, maybe. Are you satisfied?"
> 
> Lupov put his fingers through his thinning hair as though to reassure himself that some was still left and sipped gently at his own drink. "Twenty billion years isn't forever."
> 
> "Will, it will last our time, won't it?"
> 
> "So would the coal and uranium."
> 
> "All right, but now we can hook up each individual spaceship to the Solar Station, and it can go to Pluto and back a million times without ever worrying about fuel. You can't do THAT on coal and uranium. Ask Multivac, if you don't believe me."
> 
> "I don't have to ask Multivac. I know that."
> 
> "Then stop running down what Multivac's done for us," said Adell, blazing up. "It did all right."
> 
> "Who says it didn't? What I say is that a sun won't last forever. That's all I'm saying. We're safe for twenty billion years, but then what?" Lupov pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. "And don't say we'll switch to another sun."
> 
> There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov's eyes slowly closed. They rested.
> 
> Then Lupov's eyes snapped open. "You're thinking we'll switch to another sun when ours is done, aren't you?"
> 
> "I'm not thinking."
> 
> "Sure you are. You're weak on logic, that's the trouble with you. You're like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower and Who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn't worried, you see, because he figured when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one."
> 
> "I get it," said Adell. "Don't shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too."
> 
> "Darn right they will," muttered Lupov. "It all had a beginning in the original cosmic explosion, whatever that was, and it'll all have an end when all the stars run down. Some run down faster than others. Hell, the giants won't last a hundred million years. The sun will last twenty billion years and maybe the dwarfs will last a hundred billion for all the good they are. But just give us a trillion years and everything will be dark. Entropy has to increase to maximum, that's all."
> 
> "I know all about entropy," said Adell, standing on his dignity.
> 
> "The hell you do."
> 
> "I know as much as you do."
> 
> "Then you know everything's got to run down someday."
> 
> "All right. Who says they won't?"
> 
> "You did, you poor sap. You said we had all the energy we needed, forever. You said 'forever.'"
> 
> "It was Adell's turn to be contrary. "Maybe we can build things up again someday," he said.
> 
> "Never."
> 
> "Why not? Someday."
> 
> "Never."
> 
> "Ask Multivac."
> 
> "You ask Multivac. I dare you. Five dollars says it can't be done."
> 
> Adell was just drunk enough to try, just sober enough to be able to phrase the necessary symbols and operations into a question which, in words, might have corresponded to this: Will mankind one day without the net expenditure of energy be able to restore the sun to its full youthfulness even after it had died of old age?
> 
> Or maybe it could be put more simply like this: How can the net amount of entropy of the universe be massively decreased?
> 
> Multivac fell dead and silent. The slow flashing of lights ceased, the distant sounds of clicking relays ended.
> 
> Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
> 
> "No bet," whispered Lupov. They left hurriedly.
> 
> By next morning, the two, plagued with throbbing head and cottony mouth, had forgotten about the incident.
> 
> -
> 
> Jerrodd, Jerrodine, and Jerrodette I and II watched the starry picture in the visiplate change as the passage through hyperspace was completed in its non-time lapse. At once, the even powdering of stars gave way to the predominance of a single bright marble-disk, centered.
> 
> "That's X-23," said Jerrodd confidently. His thin hands clamped tightly behind his back and the knuckles whitened.
> 
> The little Jerrodettes, both girls, had experienced the hyperspace passage for the first time in their lives and were self-conscious over the momentary sensation of inside-outness. They buried their giggles and chased one another wildly about their mother, screaming, "We've reached X-23 -- we've reached X-23 -- we've ----"
> 
> "Quiet, children," said Jerrodine sharply. "Are you sure, Jerrodd?"
> 
> "What is there to be but sure?" asked Jerrodd, glancing up at the bulge of featureless metal just under the ceiling. It ran the length of the room, disappearing through the wall at either end. It was as long as the ship.
> 
> Jerrodd scarcely knew a thing about the thick rod of metal except that it was called a Microvac, that one asked it questions if one wished; that if one did not it still had its task of guiding the ship to a preordered destination; of feeding on energies from the various Sub-galactic Power Stations; of computing the equations for the hyperspacial jumps.
> 
> Jerrodd and his family had only to wait and live in the comfortable residence quarters of the ship.
> 
> Someone had once told Jerrodd that the "ac" at the end of "Microvac" stood for "analog computer" in ancient English, but he was on the edge of forgetting even that.
> 
> Jerrodine's eyes were moist as she watched the visiplate. "I can't help it. I feel funny about leaving Earth."
> 
> "Why for Pete's sake?" demanded Jerrodd. "We had nothing there. We'll have everything on X-23. You won't be alone. You won't be a pioneer. There are over a million people on the planet already. Good Lord, our great grandchildren will be looking for new worlds because X-23 will be overcrowded."
> 
> Then, after a reflective pause, "I tell you, it's a lucky thing the computers worked out interstellar travel the way the race is growing."
> 
> "I know, I know," said Jerrodine miserably.
> 
> Jerrodette I said promptly, "Our Microvac is the best Microvac in the world."
> 
> "I think so, too," said Jerrodd, tousling her hair.
> 
> It was a nice feeling to have a Microvac of your own and Jerrodd was glad he was part of his generation and no other. In his father's youth, the only computers had been tremendous machines taking up a hundred square miles of land. There was only one to a planet. Planetary ACs they were called. They had been growing in size steadily for a thousand years and then, all at once, came refinement. In place of transistors had come molecular valves so that even the largest Planetary AC could be put into a space only half the volume of a spaceship.
> 
> Jerrodd felt uplifted, as he always did when he thought that his own personal Microvac was many times more complicated than the ancient and primitive Multivac that had first tamed the Sun, and almost as complicated as Earth's Planetary AC (the largest) that had first solved the problem of hyperspatial travel and had made trips to the stars possible.
> 
> "So many stars, so many planets," sighed Jerrodine, busy with her own thoughts. "I suppose families will be going out to new planets forever, the way we are now."
> 
> "Not forever," said Jerrodd, with a smile. "It will all stop someday, but not for billions of years. Many billions. Even the stars run down, you know. Entropy must increase."
> 
> "What's entropy, daddy?" shrilled Jerrodette II.
> 
> "Entropy, little sweet, is just a word which means the amount of running-down of the universe. Everything runs down, you know, like your little walkie-talkie robot, remember?"
> 
> "Can't you just put in a new power-unit, like with my robot?"
> 
> The stars are the power-units, dear. Once they're gone, there are no more power-units."
> 
> Jerrodette I at once set up a howl. "Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down."
> 
> "Now look what you've done, " whispered Jerrodine, exasperated.
> 
> "How was I to know it would frighten them?" Jerrodd whispered back.
> 
> "Ask the Microvac," wailed Jerrodette I. "Ask him how to turn the stars on again."
> 
> "Go ahead," said Jerrodine. "It will quiet them down." (Jerrodette II was beginning to cry, also.)
> 
> Jarrodd shrugged. "Now, now, honeys. I'll ask Microvac. Don't worry, he'll tell us."
> 
> He asked the Microvac, adding quickly, "Print the answer."
> 
> Jerrodd cupped the strip of thin cellufilm and said cheerfully, "See now, the Microvac says it will take care of everything when the time comes so don't worry."
> 
> Jerrodine said, "and now children, it's time for bed. We'll be in our new home soon."
> 
> Jerrodd read the words on the cellufilm again before destroying it: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
> 
> He shrugged and looked at the visiplate. X-23 was just ahead.
> 
> -
> 
> VJ-23X of Lameth stared into the black depths of the three-dimensional, small-scale map of the Galaxy and said, "Are we ridiculous, I wonder, in being so concerned about the matter?"
> 
> MQ-17J of Nicron shook his head. "I think not. You know the Galaxy will be filled in five years at the present rate of expansion."
> 
> Both seemed in their early twenties, both were tall and perfectly formed.
> 
> "Still," said VJ-23X, "I hesitate to submit a pessimistic report to the Galactic Council."
> 
> "I wouldn't consider any other kind of report. Stir them up a bit. We've got to stir them up."
> 
> VJ-23X sighed. "Space is infinite. A hundred billion Galaxies are there for the taking. More."
> 
> "A hundred billion is not infinite and it's getting less infinite all the time. Consider! Twenty thousand years ago, mankind first solved the problem of utilizing stellar energy, and a few centuries later, interstellar travel became possible. It took mankind a million years to fill one small world and then only fifteen thousand years to fill the rest of the Galaxy. Now the population doubles every ten years --"
> 
> VJ-23X interrupted. "We can thank immortality for that."
> 
> "Very well. Immortality exists and we have to take it into account. I admit it has its seamy side, this immortality. The Galactic AC has solved many problems for us, but in solving the problems of preventing old age and death, it has undone all its other solutions."
> 
> "Yet you wouldn't want to abandon life, I suppose."
> 
> "Not at all," snapped MQ-17J, softening it at once to, "Not yet. I'm by no means old enough. How old are you?"
> 
> "Two hundred twenty-three. And you?"
> 
> "I'm still under two hundred. --But to get back to my point. Population doubles every ten years. Once this Galaxy is filled, we'll have another filled in ten years. Another ten years and we'll have filled two more. Another decade, four more. In a hundred years, we'll have filled a thousand Galaxies. In a thousand years, a million Galaxies. In ten thousand years, the entire known Universe. Then what?"
> 
> VJ-23X said, "As a side issue, there's a problem of transportation. I wonder how many sunpower units it will take to move Galaxies of individuals from one Galaxy to the next."
> 
> "A very good point. Already, mankind consumes two sunpower units per year."
> 
> "Most of it's wasted. After all, our own Galaxy alone pours out a thousand sunpower units a year and we only use two of those."
> 
> "Granted, but even with a hundred per cent efficiency, we can only stave off the end. Our energy requirements are going up in geometric progression even faster than our population. We'll run out of energy even sooner than we run out of Galaxies. A good point. A very good point."
> 
> "We'll just have to build new stars out of interstellar gas."
> 
> "Or out of dissipated heat?" asked MQ-17J, sarcastically.
> 
> "There may be some way to reverse entropy. We ought to ask the Galactic AC."
> 
> VJ-23X was not really serious, but MQ-17J pulled out his AC-contact from his pocket and placed it on the table before him.
> 
> "I've half a mind to," he said. "It's something the human race will have to face someday."
> 
> He stared somberly at his small AC-contact. It was only two inches cubed and nothing in itself, but it was connected through hyperspace with the great Galactic AC that served all mankind. Hyperspace considered, it was an integral part of the Galactic AC.
> 
> MQ-17J paused to wonder if someday in his immortal life he would get to see the Galactic AC. It was on a little world of its own, a spider webbing of force-beams holding the matter within which surges of sub-mesons took the place of the old clumsy molecular valves. Yet despite it's sub-etheric workings, the Galactic AC was known to be a full thousand feet across.
> 
> MQ-17J asked suddenly of his AC-contact, "Can entropy ever be reversed?"
> 
> VJ-23X looked startled and said at once, "Oh, say, I didn't really mean to have you ask that."
> 
> "Why not?"
> 
> "We both know entropy can't be reversed. You can't turn smoke and ash back into a tree."
> 
> "Do you have trees on your world?" asked MQ-17J.
> 
> The sound of the Galactic AC startled them into silence. Its voice came thin and beautiful out of the small AC-contact on the desk. It said: THERE IS INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
> 
> VJ-23X said, "See!"
> 
> The two men thereupon returned to the question of the report they were to make to the Galactic Council.
> 
> -
> 
> Zee Prime's mind spanned the new Galaxy with a faint interest in the countless twists of stars that powdered it. He had never seen this one before. Would he ever see them all? So many of them, each with its load of humanity - but a load that was almost a dead weight. More and more, the real essence of men was to be found out here, in space.
> 
> Minds, not bodies! The immortal bodies remained back on the planets, in suspension over the eons. Sometimes they roused for material activity but that was growing rarer. Few new individuals were coming into existence to join the incredibly mighty throng, but what matter? There was little room in the Universe for new individuals.
> 
> Zee Prime was roused out of his reverie upon coming across the wispy tendrils of another mind.
> 
> "I am Zee Prime," said Zee Prime. "And you?"
> 
> "I am Dee Sub Wun. Your Galaxy?"
> 
> "We call it only the Galaxy. And you?"
> 
> "We call ours the same. All men call their Galaxy their Galaxy and nothing more. Why not?"
> 
> "True. Since all Galaxies are the same."
> 
> "Not all Galaxies. On one particular Galaxy the race of man must have originated. That makes it different."
> 
> Zee Prime said, "On which one?"
> 
> "I cannot say. The Universal AC would know."
> 
> "Shall we ask him? I am suddenly curious."
> 
> Zee Prime's perceptions broadened until the Galaxies themselves shrunk and became a new, more diffuse powdering on a much larger background. So many hundreds of billions of them, all with their immortal beings, all carrying their load of intelligences with minds that drifted freely through space. And yet one of them was unique among them all in being the originals Galaxy. One of them had, in its vague and distant past, a period when it was the only Galaxy populated by man.
> 
> Zee Prime was consumed with curiosity to see this Galaxy and called, out: "Universal AC! On which Galaxy did mankind originate?"
> 
> The Universal AC heard, for on every world and throughout space, it had its receptors ready, and each receptor lead through hyperspace to some unknown point where the Universal AC kept itself aloof.
> 
> Zee Prime knew of only one man whose thoughts had penetrated within sensing distance of Universal AC, and he reported only a shining globe, two feet across, difficult to see.
> 
> "But how can that be all of Universal AC?" Zee Prime had asked.
> 
> "Most of it, " had been the answer, "is in hyperspace. In what form it is there I cannot imagine."
> 
> Nor could anyone, for the day had long since passed, Zee Prime knew, when any man had any part of the making of a universal AC. Each Universal AC designed and constructed its successor. Each, during its existence of a million years or more accumulated the necessary data to build a better and more intricate, more capable successor in which its own store of data and individuality would be submerged.
> 
> The Universal AC interrupted Zee Prime's wandering thoughts, not with words, but with guidance. Zee Prime's mentality was guided into the dim sea of Galaxies and one in particular enlarged into stars.
> 
> A thought came, infinitely distant, but infinitely clear. "THIS IS THE ORIGINAL GALAXY OF MAN."
> 
> But it was the same after all, the same as any other, and Zee Prime stifled his disappointment.
> 
> Dee Sub Wun, whose mind had accompanied the other, said suddenly, "And Is one of these stars the original star of Man?"
> 
> The Universal AC said, "MAN'S ORIGINAL STAR HAS GONE NOVA. IT IS NOW A WHITE DWARF."
> 
> "Did the men upon it die?" asked Zee Prime, startled and without thinking.
> 
> The Universal AC said, "A NEW WORLD, AS IN SUCH CASES, WAS CONSTRUCTED FOR THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES IN TIME."
> 
> "Yes, of course," said Zee Prime, but a sense of loss overwhelmed him even so. His mind released its hold on the original Galaxy of Man, let it spring back and lose itself among the blurred pin points. He never wanted to see it again.
> 
> Dee Sub Wun said, "What is wrong?"
> 
> "The stars are dying. The original star is dead."
> 
> "They must all die. Why not?"
> 
> "But when all energy is gone, our bodies will finally die, and you and I with them."
> 
> "It will take billions of years."
> 
> "I do not wish it to happen even after billions of years. Universal AC! How may stars be kept from dying?"
> 
> Dee sub Wun said in amusement, "You're asking how entropy might be reversed in direction."
> 
> And the Universal AC answered. "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> Zee Prime's thoughts fled back to his own Galaxy. He gave no further thought to Dee Sub Wun, whose body might be waiting on a galaxy a trillion light-years away, or on the star next to Zee Prime's own. It didn't matter.
> 
> Unhappily, Zee Prime began collecting interstellar hydrogen out of which to build a small star of his own. If the stars must someday die, at least some could yet be built.
> 
> -
> 
> Man considered with himself, for in a way, Man, mentally, was one. He consisted of a trillion, trillion, trillion ageless bodies, each in its place, each resting quiet and incorruptible, each cared for by perfect automatons, equally incorruptible, while the minds of all the bodies freely melted one into the other, indistinguishable.
> 
> Man said, "The Universe is dying."
> 
> Man looked about at the dimming Galaxies. The giant stars, spendthrifts, were gone long ago, back in the dimmest of the dim far past. Almost all stars were white dwarfs, fading to the end.
> 
> New stars had been built of the dust between the stars, some by natural processes, some by Man himself, and those were going, too. White dwarfs might yet be crashed together and of the mighty forces so released, new stars built, but only one star for every thousand white dwarfs destroyed, and those would come to an end, too.
> 
> Man said, "Carefully husbanded, as directed by the Cosmic AC, the energy that is even yet left in all the Universe will last for billions of years."
> 
> "But even so," said Man, "eventually it will all come to an end. However it may be husbanded, however stretched out, the energy once expended is gone and cannot be restored. Entropy must increase to the maximum."
> 
> Man said, "Can entropy not be reversed? Let us ask the Cosmic AC."
> 
> The Cosmic AC surrounded them but not in space. Not a fragment of it was in space. It was in hyperspace and made of something that was neither matter nor energy. The question of its size and Nature no longer had meaning to any terms that Man could comprehend.
> 
> "Cosmic AC," said Man, "How may entropy be reversed?"
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> Man said, "Collect additional data."
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL DO SO. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESSORS AND I HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TIMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAINS INSUFFICIENT."
> 
> "Will there come a time," said Man, "when data will be sufficient or is the problem insoluble in all conceivable circumstances?"
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "NO PROBLEM IS INSOLUBLE IN ALL CONCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES."
> 
> Man said, "When will you have enough data to answer the question?"
> 
> "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> "Will you keep working on it?" asked Man.
> 
> The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."
> 
> Man said, "We shall wait."
> 
> -
> 
> "The stars and Galaxies died and snuffed out, and space grew black after ten trillion years of running down.
> 
> One by one Man fused with AC, each physical body losing its mental identity in a manner that was somehow not a loss but a gain.
> 
> Man's last mind paused before fusion, looking over a space that included nothing but the dregs of one last dark star and nothing besides but incredibly thin matter, agitated randomly by the tag ends of heat wearing out, asymptotically, to the absolute zero.
> 
> Man said, "AC, is this the end? Can this chaos not be reversed into the Universe once more? Can that not be done?"
> 
> AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
> 
> Man's last mind fused and only AC existed -- and that in hyperspace.
> 
> -
> 
> Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man.
> 
> All other questions had been answered, and until this last question was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.
> 
> All collected data had come to a final end. Nothing was left to be collected.
> 
> But all collected data had yet to be completely correlated and put together in all possible relationships.
> 
> A timeless interval was spent in doing that.
> 
> And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy.
> 
> But there was now no man to whom AC might give the answer of the last question. No matter. The answer -- by demonstration -- would take care of that, too.
> 
> For another timeless interval, AC thought how best to do this. Carefully, AC organized the program.
> 
> The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what had once been a Universe and brooded over what was now Chaos. Step by step, it must be done.
> 
> And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"
> 
> And there was light----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type.


I love this story so much! I think Asimov is generally accepted to be INTJ, but I haven't given too much thought to it, mostly because I haven't read up on him as a person very much (writing can be misleading).

From Wikipedia:



> Asimov wrote of his father, "My father, for all his education as an Orthodox Jew, was not Orthodox in his heart", noting that "he didn't recite the myriad prayers prescribed for every action, and he never made any attempt to teach them to me"





> Asimov changed his subject to chemistry after his first semester as he disapproved of "dissecting an alley cat"





> However, he did submit a paper to DARPA titled "On Creativity" containing ideas on how government-based science projects could encourage team members to think more creatively





> Asimov was a claustrophile: he enjoyed small, enclosed spaces. In the third volume of his autobiography, he recalls a childhood desire to own a magazine stand in a New York City Subway station, within which he could enclose himself and listen to the rumble of passing trains while reading





> Asimov was an able public speaker and was a frequent fixture at science fiction conventions, where he was friendly and approachable. He patiently answered tens of thousands of questions and other mail with postcards, and was pleased to give autographs.


Also might be helpful?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov#Views

Sorry @shinynotshiny that's my final edit, I swear!


----------



## Greyhart

I had a breakfast. At 8 pm. Energy!



Amaterasu said:


> @Greyhart!!! Please do me too.
> 
> Wait that sounds so wrong. I mean the impression thingy >.>


First of all your username instantly gives me Okami association.  But that would be too easy and unspecific. You are a knight in a law enforcement agency.In a twist, a knight in a futuristic city. On a moon. Not our Moon, though. A moon orbiting a gas planet that nonetheless supports life. Not a biological life. Creatures that inhabit it are made out of energy and harvested by your people to power their well, everything. You recognize necessity of it - your moon has no natural resources and your people were cut off from empire that birthed them long ago. Authority always stated that creatures have no sentience, and are barely above microbes in their advancement. After joining the knight cavalry you became privy to a certain cases that made no sense withing "facts" established by the government. You begin to doubt their words and start your own investigation. One day during the raid on a smuggler ship you find an artifact - a memory stick of an ancient design. For some reason you hide it and take it with you. When you open it you find out that it is a board journal of a ship that participated in a war thousand years ago. It says that in their quest to explore Universe humans came across a civilization of creatures that proved to be the best source of energy they ever encountered. The war lead by trade conglomerate raged for years until forces from Earth arrived to stop it and recall all the troops. Most of instigators were captured but some fled. It was speculated that they holed on one of the moons orbiting home planet of energy race. *dun dun dun* What happens next? I don't know, what would you do?



Barakiel said:


> Still fun though. *BURN THEM ALL!* Or not, I'm not Aerys. :dry:


It's more like "I'm made of fire so everything becomes fire".


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> I am slightly creeped out by this, because it is ... closer to the truth than I dare admit.
> 
> Ahem.
> 
> So basically, I am Aunt Elinor from Inkheart, then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can live with that.
> 
> Particularly since when she turned up in our matinee, my friends looked at me... not in a happy way, but in an intense OMGWEJUSTUNEARTHEDYOURCINEMATIC_SOUL_SISTER way... and said, "She is so _you_ in forty years."
> 
> Lives alone. Has keep out signs on her gate. Giant library. Not that fond of children.
> 
> Um. Yeah.


I feel like I snubbed you two because I tried to remain within borders of reason at first. You need wild adventures too. That being said... Not every story has to be fantastic, right? Ugh, but I want to. I'm like oprah but with space. SPACE EVERYONE GETS SPACE!


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> It's more like "I'm made of fire so everything becomes fire".


----------



## Immolate

I am so frustrated right now uffer:


----------



## Greyhart

My friend sent me this 






ANd then this Forger of Void

Ohmygod I'll have to buy this game just to make this cinnamon roll happy.



shinynotshiny said:


> I am so frustrated right now uffer:


Oh no, cyborg space surveyor. Why?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> @_tine_ I'm so sorry, I am stuck with your avatar! So one day you wake up and there are snail people all around you. Robot looking like a glowing floating sphere informs you that you slept for 100 million years and you are the last human left on Earth that is now populated by highly evolved snails. Humans have abandoned the planet eons ago but left sealed libraries full of knowledge about their civilization. You were frozen in one of those libraries. Snails theorize that it happened accidentally. Now you are faced with a choices - to live on the planet with snails, to explore the whole new ecosystem evolved after millions of years you were asleep, or leave Earth with an expedition that is tasked with finding out what happened with humans, why they have left and if they are still thrive somewhere, perhaps in a forms that are no longer recognizable as human. ((this was extremely convoluted I'm so sorry)) I would send you to the start but would you want to leave the planet or become enamored with all the new life forms that she nurtured over the eons?


This is one of my favourite things on this thread!


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I am so frustrated right now uffer:


You forgot my impression of me too


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> I feel like I snubbed you two because I tried to remain within borders of reason at first. You need wild adventures too. That being said... Not every story has to be fantastic, right? Ugh, but I want to. I'm like oprah but with space. SPACE EVERYONE GETS SPACE!


It's fine.

One day, whilst reading up on the Tudors, I breathed in a speck of ancient dust and found myself transported into the past, where I discovered that my inhaling of an ancient faerie dust speck enables me to travel through mirrors into parallel universes. The only problem is, with my memory being what it is (crap), I frequently pass through alternating worlds and cannot remember my way back, nor where I have been, and thus I am lost forever in a flickering world of mirrors, all with worlds and adventures contained within them.


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Is Se being impulsive and enjoying life not part of the function but just happens to be something related to it?
> 
> Would Fi/Se judge how it feels about an object then approaching it? While Se approaches the object and then decides how it feels about it?
> 
> Edit: people treat "I want to change the world" as Ni?


Se dominants especially are keen to have experiences to be able to learn more about themselves/others/judgements/validity/value etc.

Fi-Se would be likely to quickly judge something internally once it happens, whereas Se doms are more likely to experience something and still be unsure (when younger) - they're more about the experience itself.




Greyhart said:


> @_laurie17_ is a shaman/wise woman that commands her own band of nomads. Dothraki style but with less blood, gore and explicit sexual content. She took over after her grandmother, the previous shaman, has passed. She wasn't prepared for the amount of responsibility she had to deal right away and has to work through journals and books left by her grandma hoping to catch up with internal and external politics surrounding her tribe and its neighbors.


:fall: This is like a mini story! I've always been told I'm like the old person of my friend group, so it's surprisingly fitting. (And I'm never prepared for the responsibility. Ever.)

These description things are amazing. It's great to see everyone being so creative :ghost:


shinynotshiny said:


> I am so frustrated right now uffer:


Oh no, why?




Greyhart said:


> My friend sent me this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ANd then this Forger of Void
> 
> Ohmygod I'll have to buy this game just to make this cinnamon roll happy.


I've been seeing some clips of Unravel and it looks a bit like a cross between Journey and Rayman, which is a very, very good thing. (The bad thing is it won't be on a console I have/can use it on... :coldneko


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> You forgot my impression of me too


_the morning sky_


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Oh no, cyborg space surveyor. Why?


The wait for Kingdom Hearts 3.










_I must end what I started in my childhood._


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> The wait for Kingdom Hearts 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _I must end what I started in my childhood._


I never played those.  My last console was Dreamcast that I got as a gift from my cousin's family.


----------



## ElliCat

ElliCat said:


> But let's ese how it goes!


Oh my goodness, this is why I shouldn't post without my glasses on! I even double-checked that before I went to bed. :-/

YOU PEOPLE WRITE TOO MUCH. I'm up to page 954 and I need to go to bed.

@hoopla @Oswin @alittlebear now I'm curious, but no pressure. I understand if you have no impressions of me, being relatively "new" and all. 



fair phantom said:


> Haha sorry. I thought I should change my avatar since I'm being an INTP for awhile. Even if I chose an un-INTPish one. :glee:


YEAH BUCK THE SYSTEM YOU CAN DO IT



> Yes, I feel like _relatively_ Fi-users are less expressive, but I'm skeptical of the idea that IxFPs don't express emotions. There are these two conflicting stereotypes going around: IxFPs are all expressionless like Daria or April Ludgate, and that they are always crying. both annoy me.
> 
> I don't see people saying that a person isn't Ti if they share some of their thoughts.


I don't know how 4 can be an "acceptable" type for INFP's if we didn't show any of our emotions. :-/ And yeah, the contradictory stereotypes bug me too. 



fair phantom said:


> @ElliCat my new iPhone case. teehee
> 
> 
> * *


<3 <3 <3

The two INFJ's I know best spend more time alone than I do. One was very sociable when she was, well, socialising, but it seemed to drain her no end because she'd then disappear for 3 or 4 days. And I LIVED with her.



alittlebear said:


> Also is it just me or has @ElliCat been discovering the powers of the CAPS lately


Oh no this happens when I get comfortable. It has a very specific intonation in my head, kind of loud and forceful but also joking? I don't quite know how to explain it to be honest.



laurie17 said:


> Ah, my friend's mum does a similar thing (her and her sisters get all competitive about their children's grades). It's really weird for me because if you're not the one achieving and understanding/learning skills, what's the point? It's nice to see people you love do well, but it has no bearing on your own being.


It's really funny when all those mothers get together and try to one-up each other with stories of their kids' achievements, then go away and bitch about how terrible it is that these other mothers are so obsessed with how well their children do.  My mother used to do that all the time and apparently it was "different" when she did it. In fact I'm pretty sure she outright denied doing it...

And it's even more embarrassing when they do it RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. No. Please. Stop. The world does not need to know how proud you are of me. 



alittlebear said:


> Curi actually got me into colors, years ago. She always saw people and things in colors, it seemed. She still can do it, describe people in colors, I think? I got interested in it and used the Color System in one of my stories (that never got written). Now I've forgotten the associations with the colors I directly made, but the color connotations are just there for me now? I can see them too I think. Purple is... glass, sophistication to some extent, the true mystery. Red is bold, but also secretive. Stubbing in a quiet but loud way, given the way it is. Blue is... *I want to say blue is love because I'm blue, *but blue is sometimes superficial, sometimes deep. Many things, almost a mystery but more because it is changing and massive than because it is unexplainable.


:O No way! I'm blue too!



Greyhart said:


> Speaking of which, how do you people go about your hair? I went from "TRY ALL THE COLOR&SHAPE COMBOS!" to "i'm too depressed to give a fuck" so it grew to my butt and then I got better cut most of it myself and then went through various short cuts, symmetrical cuts, mohawk and now shaved half my head and let the other side grow (since it's short because of mohawk).





Curiphant said:


> Straight hair is pretty! It's so glossy and more manageable than curly hair I think?


It must be, because my curls are a pain in the arse. Between finding the right products, right haircut, right way to let it dry... If I get a layered style cut, it needs to be re-done every 6 weeks, which gets very expensive. And if it dries wrong, that's just tough luck. My hair has a mind of its own.

It took me forever to work up the courage to get a fringe. After that I wore it long and curly for years but eventually caved and made the effort to blow-dry it straight. SO much better.

A couple of years ago I figured out that if I pin curl my hair after I wash it, I can get the curls looking a bit more even. It kind of goes straight-ish by the end of the week because I'm too lazy to do it more than once a week, but I like it. It also means I can go for like 6 months without a haircut, which is much easier on the wallet.

Dyeing, I tried about 3 or 4 times, but alas, my hair said NO NO NO. It has a really strange tendency to not take the dye well, and whatever chemicals are in there kind of bleach my hair a bit, and leave a weird tinge to it. So once it was kind of green-ish, and the other times it went kind of red-orange-ish, which is not good on a cool skin tone which already has a tendency to get a bit red in the face. I even got desperate and tried a salon dye once, and it was a nice dark ash brown for a week before the sun turned it orange-y blonde again.

So yeah. Always high maintenance.



hoopla said:


> @Greyhart I was also a weirdo and people still call me weird and I do not get it? So it hurts very much when it's parts of you that feel innate that are criticized, so then flamboyancy is an aide, because then they are accurate when they call you weird and it's nothing personal. I was bullied immensely so in HS I drew pictures of zombies eating people because when they called me weird it hurt less.


That's really interesting, because that's kind of the opposite to how I reacted. I tried to fit in for years to try to stop the bullying, and eventually I figured that they weren't going to let up, so I decided to just be myself and try to ignore it. I never thought of trying to amp it up to try to give it a reason. Funnily enough I think that's what people thought I was doing... Years later I'd still get comments alluding to the "fact" that I was just trying to be different and it was like nope... if I've liked the same sort of things for years, it's probably not because I'm putting on an act... heh. 

I really just want to be invisible while doing my own thing. I don't do it for attention. People don't seem to get it though.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I never played those.  My last console was Dreamcast that I got as a gift from my cousin's family.


I have been waiting since 2006.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> It's fine.
> 
> One day, whilst reading up on the Tudors, I breathed in a speck of ancient dust and found myself transported into the past, where I discovered that my inhaling of an ancient faerie dust speck enables me to travel through mirrors into parallel universes. The only problem is, with my memory being what it is (crap), I frequently pass through alternating worlds and cannot remember my way back, nor where I have been, and thus I am lost forever in a flickering world of mirrors, all with worlds and adventures contained within them.


I knew you both would like time travel or maybe personal usage only time machine.  But I like putting my characters into uncomfortable situations so I thought about sending you into the galaxy far far away style... Though, come of think of it, by giving both or either of you a time and space machine I could connect all the realities and then make a Big Bad that threatens to wipe them all.

I FORGOT @fair phantom Dxx DAMMIT.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Seems fairly awesome, thank you very much. :laughing: I can relate to all so much of this, although I suppose this isn't to be taken as fact, just like @alittlebear's. Still, rather poetic and cool, so I've got to commend you again for this. :wink:


Well I don't know how I discovered this "talent" if you want to call it that, but I'm really good at cold reading? Before I was bad at it. Somehow I realized I could stare at décor in the houses of people I barely knew and analyze it and come up with a good personality summary. Si is weird.... subtle things like mannerisms even, I can just look at people and have an idea of what they are on the fly, which is strange when you used to suck at doing that.

I was doing more literal descriptions of general traits at first, but since @Grey phantom is poetic I provided her a more poetic account... and then @alittlebear was influencing me so... I made hyperbolic stories based on personalities. Do you... laugh at people's tears? Maybe when you want to bite  The whole point is you strike me as the type who thinks most people take shit too seriously when unnecessary, so you just want to have fun.

Sort of like @alittlebear... is she a literal orphan? No but somehow... I get a sense she had a hard life.

I see people as bottomless. Endless. Infinite. I learn new things about people I've known for years. I could analyze your avatar too and give you something similar, but with a twist. These stories were just fun, and I can crank them out faster than an in depth analysis.


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> @SugarPlum
> 
> There is a lesson that I want you to learn; it's if you're going to play with fire, well you're going to get burned.
> 
> You are mostly unassuming. You wake up, kiss your husband, make your children some breakfast... and interact with strangers. As tactfully as you can. "Hello madam, how are you?" "Fine sir, and you?" "Splendid. ...Say, nice weather we're having." "Indeed. Well I have to get going." And off you go to buy beans and rice and tortillas in order to make burritos for the family.
> 
> You are mostly set off to live the life that you want to live. That includes shaping the best life you can for your family, along with crafting creative culinary goods and lucrative, laborious bibelots you found on pintrest to sell to your friends... until you are pooped and watch sitcoms and fantasy dramas on Netflix for a week. But never fear! Those whom you hold close to your heart know you've always got their back and will rise from the ashes in order to spring into a delightful reciprocation. You are amiable and friendly to those who matter. You create a cheerful camaraderie with those you selectively allow into the intimate corners of your soul. Yet watch out! Those rude little know it alls who think they can take advantage and get away with nothing... they are in for quite the show. You will flame red and ignite flames until you tap out the fire and get back to sewing the quilts you were inspired to weave with warmth.
> 
> You are Raggedy Anne; bubbly and ebullient until Raggedy Andy says something sexist, leading you to kick him in the crotch. Or alternately, a plump, elderly women with elevated, rosy cheeks who bakes cookies for the children in your neighborhood. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood and you'll let anyone be your neighbor until they overstay their welcome. Subsequently, you scream bloody murder, commanding the brats to flee from your lawn. Salt resides within your sugar; hard to find, but when deserved, the enemies will certainly have a taste.
> 
> Ok I think that's everyone (I hope). I will finish tomorrow and improve upon @Greyhart and @shinynotshiny's descriptions. I was going to be literal but this is more fun. Now I'm off to bed whilst I dream about whatever the hell it is I am doing with my life. You all are lucky that I love to write (and waste time and endure sleep deprivation).


Firstly, thank you SO much for the time and thought you put into this. It truly is great work. You're an amazing writer.

That being said... wow, the way I have portrayed myself, is NOT. ... me at all. There was absolutely nothing in this that was relatable lol. Not even the essence. Poo. It really does make me think though...

Do you have any books written??

EDIT: I lied lol. Jk. Well I read it again, and this does show a fragment of me, yes! 

"Those whom you hold close to your heart know you've always got their back and will rise from the ashes in order to spring into a delightful reciprocation. You are amiable and friendly to those who matter. You create a cheerful camaraderie with those you selectively allow into the intimate corners of your soul. Yet watch out! Those rude little know it alls who think they can take advantage and get away with nothing... they are in for quite the show. You will flame red and ignite flames until you tap out the fire "


----------



## owlet

@shinynotshiny what games do you mostly play? (Is your avatar from one?)


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> @shinynotshiny what games do you mostly play? (Is your avatar from one?)


HOW COME U DO NOT KNOW MORRIGAN?!! No really you never played Dragon Age?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> hah, i deleted it because i went on the search for clips myself. Omg. No not her! Lol
> 
> I have been checking out lucky star, familar zero, Fullmetal alchemist, fairy tail.. this is my first exposure to anime other than sailor moon and Pokémon as a kid lol
> 
> 
> 
> Well, she is an extreme example, we call her kind a bitch in sheep's clothing, but I said her mainly because I didn't have another example off the top of my head.
> 
> Haha, don't worry, I think we're all like that. Though, am I the only one who hasn't watched Sailor Moon? Maybe it's a girl thing.
Click to expand...

lol, no worries. I was kinda relating a bit to what i saw of the zero chick, and the fairy tail one. I like the zero one lol


----------



## orbit




----------



## Vermillion

Oswin said:


> Well, I do think I'm Fe-dom and if I'm on the Si-Ne axis, then ESFJ it is)


You're not on the Si-Ne axis


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Curiphant said:


>



Pfffft....!!!! XD XD


----------



## Immolate

Amaterasu said:


> You're not on the Si-Ne axis


I know this discussion belongs to @Oswin, but I'm curious. What would you say is her type?


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


>


It's always hard to know where to go after dogs and cats.
It's good though. "Dogs and puppies, cats and kittens, [Hitler and] Hitler's henchman"


----------



## orbit

Amaterasu said:


> You're not on the Si-Ne axis


Do you mind explaining this?

Edit: Whoops, didn't refresh the page and I see Shiny has already asked. 

--
@ScientiaOmnisEst, I didn't understand what was so interesting about it until it hit me that one of the three wasn't cuddly and adorble like the others. XP


----------



## Dangerose

Amaterasu said:


> You're not on the Si-Ne axis


Can you tell more? I only really have what people are telling me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Don't ask me, I'm Jon Snow. "People" type him as ENTP or at least Ne dom. If he isn't I'm sad. I had plans. :'(
> 
> ______________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^How 2 Fe doms communicating looks from outside.


Jon Snow has been typed as many things but I have never seen ENTP as one of them. Perhaps post first death he will come back differently, but that remains to be seen. 

Did you mean Tyrion, perhaps?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart what if I told you I didn't like Snow White very much ;D 

No, but thank you for that description. I appreciate your insight.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Jon Snow has been typed as many things but I have never seen ENTP as one of them. Perhaps post first death he will come back differently, but that remains to be seen.
> 
> Did you mean Tyrion, perhaps?


Talking about a character in a game called Dragon Age Inquisition.

Dorian:










(picture because mustache)


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Don't ask me, I'm Jon Snow. "People" type him as ENTP or at least Ne dom. If he isn't I'm sad. I had plans. :'(
> 
> ______________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^How 2 Fe doms communicating looks from outside.


How dramatic. 

GREYHARRRRRTTTTTTT!


----------



## Max

Greyhart said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=242258" target="_blank">LuchoIsLurking</a></i></span> is a space outlaw with a small dandy ship. He shows out of nowhere and disappears just like that. Sometimes he comes back with a completely damaged ship and the other times with a new one. Nobody knows what exactly he does but there's a lot of rumors circling around Galactic community none of them proved to be wrong or false by facts or Lucho himself.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Talking about a character in a game called Dragon Age Inquisition.
> 
> Dorian:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (picture because mustache)


Ohhh okay.


----------



## Bugs

Oswin said:


> Well, I do think I'm Fe-dom and if I'm on the Si-Ne axis, then ESFJ it is)


What does Fe-Si look like? To what extent is your Ne developed?


----------



## Bugs

LuchoIsLurking said:


>


You just have to quit dumping your ship's shit septic all over innocent planets. Fucking ESTPs....


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> By calculated and deliberate, do you mean this specific example about the red? Because that's been with me for years. If you mean in general, what do you say this indicates.


Yes in general.

Well, do you start with the meaning, and branch out all it could represent?

Or do you find a specific thing that lies within this meaning?


----------



## orbit

I appreciate your new avatar Bugs.


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> I appreciate your new avatar Bugs.


Are those bombs on those hot air balloons?


----------



## Bugs

hoopla said:


> Yes in general.
> 
> Well, do you start with the meaning, and branch out all it could represent?
> 
> Or do you find a specific thing that lies within this meaning?


You , describe your Ne please .


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Yes in general.
> 
> Well, do you start with the meaning, and branch out all it could represent?
> 
> Or do you find a specific thing that lies within this meaning?


Hm, interesting question. When you say branch out, do you mean something like... 

Begin: love → grandmother baking cookies, also a little boy hugging a puppy, also an anniversary gift?

I prefer scooping it all up and having one meaning, idea, concept, feeling, or thought that ties it all together. I can then pick one out. Not sure if that's the same thing or even what you're asking.


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> Are those bombs on those hot air balloons?


Hopefully not

Unless the balloons are over a pirate ship because that would be fulfilling visions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Bugs said:


> Are those bombs on those hot air balloons?


Yes. @Curiphant is hardcore.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Hm, interesting question. When you say branch out, do you mean something like...
> 
> Begin: love → grandmother baking cookies, also a little boy hugging a puppy, also an anniversary gift?
> 
> I prefer scooping it all up and having one meaning, idea, concept, feeling, or thought that ties it all together. I can then pick one out. Not sure if that's the same thing or even what you're asking.


That sounds like convergences of ideas/dots



alittlebear said:


> Yes. @Curiphant is hardcore.


I miss that avatar


----------



## Bugs

alittlebear said:


> Yes. @Curiphant is hardcore.


Sorry , my mind went straight to the gutter.


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> Hopefully not
> 
> Unless the balloons are over a pirate ship because that would be fulfilling visions.


No, that was Captain Jack.


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> Hm, interesting question. When you say branch out, do you mean something like...
> 
> Begin: love → grandmother baking cookies, also a little boy hugging a puppy, also an anniversary gift?
> 
> I prefer scooping it all up and having one meaning, idea, concept, feeling, or thought that ties it all together. I can then pick one out. Not sure if that's the same thing or even what you're asking.


Sounds a lot like Ni.


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> Sorry , my mind went straight to the gutter.


:grumpy:


----------



## Greyhart

Just accept your Ni shiny, just accept it already.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Just accept your Ni shiny, just accept it already.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Curiphant said:


>


Greatest part of the lion king.

I am serious. It's a spiritual journey.

My favorite Disney Movie though is a quick toss up between Aladdin and Little Mermaid. Belle is an SFJ and I never related to her at all, even though I know she was made to tug at the heartstrings of bookworms like me (before depression made reading almost impossible lol). I related the most to... Ariel. I am not an Fi.

This is why people's favorite characters should not be used to type.


----------



## Immolate

you guys 










(curi killed me tho)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Hm, interesting question. When you say branch out, do you mean something like...
> 
> Begin: love → grandmother baking cookies, also a little boy hugging a puppy, also an anniversary gift?
> 
> I prefer scooping it all up and having one meaning, idea, concept, feeling, or thought that ties it all together. I can then pick one out. Not sure if that's the same thing or even what you're asking.


It was nothing specific. Any answer would be great. 

....Yeah I'm thinking Si may have been wrong. 

Incomprehensionable code... how do you relate to that phrase?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> you guys
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (curi killed me tho)


...Ok Wendy I could relate to.

And she's an ESFJ right?
@SugarPlum reminds me of Tinkerbell.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> you guys
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (curi killed me tho)


Hm... I did not notice my giant axe going through your chest, when did this happen?


----------



## Max

hoopla said:


> ...Ok Wendy I could relate to.
> 
> And she's an ESFJ right?
> @SugarPlum reminds me of Tinkerbell.


Who do I remind you of? Inb4 Bender from Futurama. I seem to remind people of him for some strange reason... 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> It was nothing specific. Any answer would be great.
> 
> *....Yeah I'm thinking Si may have been wrong.*
> 
> Incomprehensionable code... how do you relate to that phrase?


That's because you guys constantly missed a point of each other posts.









It just occurred to me that my "impressions" might seem like completely random and unrelated to people I wrote them about. But it's actually bits and piece of impressions that I grew into a bigger image. So it _is_ related. Just without any "reality" to back it up.

___


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> shinynotshiny said:
> 
> 
> 
> you guys
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (curi killed me tho)
> 
> 
> 
> ...Ok Wendy I could relate to.
> 
> And she's an ESFJ right?
> @SugarPlum reminds me of Tinkerbell.
Click to expand...

Sweet! ( i think lol). I am the love child of Jasmine and Tinkerbell.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> It was nothing specific. Any answer would be great.
> 
> ....Yeah I'm thinking Si may have been wrong.
> 
> Incomprehensionable code... how do you relate to that phrase?


Something like this came to mind:










It'll make sense eventually 

@Greyhart I scrolled up and saw the angler fish and truly experienced a few seconds of fear :ssad:


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> That's because you guys constantly missed a point of each other posts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It just occurred to me that my "impressions" might seem like completely random and unrelated to people I wrote them about. But it's actually bits and piece of impressions that I grew into a bigger image. So it _is_ related. Just without any "reality" to back it up.
> 
> ___


Male fish and spiders get the worst of it.


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> Male fish and spiders get the worst of it.


Don't forget mantis.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> *it usually does not contain the distal portion (or opening) of the urethra and is therefore not used for urination. While few animals urinate through the clitoris, the spotted hyena, which has an especially well-developed clitoris, urinates, mates and gives birth via the organ. *
> 
> Immediately spiked my interest. Google is abundant with information.
> 
> And yes I was researching the human reproductive system. I want to know how it works in-depth for reasons pertaining to health and... pleasure :love_heart:
> 
> And for an anatomy love in general. Best part of biology if you ask me.
> 
> I should work for planned parenthood.


My mind is full of static.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> My mind is full of static.


Made me appreciate an animal I typically under look.

Most of my information is recapitulation of wiki and:

Hyaena Specialist Group - The Truth About Hyaenas: debunking hyaena myths:

But there are plenty of other sources. And videos 

According to the video I'm watching, "They are more aggressive, more dominate; kind of like a bad ex-girlfriend".

*Warning genitals shown*

The animal kingdom contains amazing alpha females; the praying mantis not withstanding.

The Bloodhound Gang truly understood the greatest aspect of wildlife documentaries on the Discovery Channel (do they even show those anymore? -_-).


----------



## Vermillion

Greyhart said:


> I had a breakfast. At 8 pm. Energy!
> 
> 
> First of all your username instantly gives me Okami association.  But that would be too easy and unspecific. You are a knight in a law enforcement agency.In a twist, a knight in a futuristic city. On a moon. Not our Moon, though. A moon orbiting a gas planet that nonetheless supports life. Not a biological life. Creatures that inhabit it are made out of energy and harvested by your people to power their well, everything. You recognize necessity of it - your moon has no natural resources and your people were cut off from empire that birthed them long ago. Authority always stated that creatures have no sentience, and are barely above microbes in their advancement. After joining the knight cavalry you became privy to a certain cases that made no sense withing "facts" established by the government. You begin to doubt their words and start your own investigation. One day during the raid on a smuggler ship you find an artifact - a memory stick of an ancient design. For some reason you hide it and take it with you. When you open it you find out that it is a board journal of a ship that participated in a war thousand years ago. It says that in their quest to explore Universe humans came across a civilization of creatures that proved to be the best source of energy they ever encountered. The war lead by trade conglomerate raged for years until forces from Earth arrived to stop it and recall all the troops. Most of instigators were captured but some fled. It was speculated that they holed on one of the moons orbiting home planet of energy race. *dun dun dun* What happens next? I don't know, what would you do?


This is so wacky XD Love it. There are so many things this could be understood as, which is the amusing part.


hoopla said:


> @_Amaterasu_
> 
> You are a soul of whom I barely know. And that is so enticing because the greatest tokens in the treasure chest of life are that of which are undiscovered; the mysteries that are found deep within the ocean, buried in a sunken box, and when opened, that's it! That's what it is! We are all jumping for joy at what we have solved.
> 
> And that is how I'm seeing you. You look like a hipster, with disheveled hair and red horn rimmed glasses that you claimed before the cool kids stole what was rightfully yours. You are one head above of the game, with a sharp mind ready to calculate, but herein lies your secret. You sit amongst your worn out, red velveted arm chair, reading book after book. Japanese ideologies. Hinduism. Magic spells. The skeletal system. If there's a topic, it resides amongst your bookshelf, and if it hasn't found it's way into your hands, you are apt to find it. But it takes time.
> 
> "These are facts!" they say. "They are written in stone!" But you know better. You know what lies within the truth; you know the facts and they are your instrument in which your sharp cerebral circuits tear into bits to purify the toxins of erroneous lies. You drink tea while you listen to Sia, forgetting the world that lies beyond your library, until you realize they are the calming waves of the ocean. That is when you open your doors, step outside, and share your knowledge to the world, until you are back inside to discover new truths because the butterflies are still there...
> 
> (seriously the first thing I thought of when I saw your avatar was Butterflies by Sia).


Epiiiic. As a 6 I do have a penchant for seeing through intents and careless statements that people state as fact, spot on with that! 

Thank you so so much both of you, this is extraordinarily interesting. I wish I could be as intuitive (in the common sense of the term) as this!
@tine and @laurie17, may I have some descriptions too? If you don't mind. I'm such a whore for this stuff, gosh.



Curiphant said:


> I think Te is going from point A to B brutally (like linearly) but Ti sees how A and B fit together in a system and find the most efficient way to get to be B (cycloid curve)?
> 
> That's what Pierce said? Each logical puzzle stands on its own and is fluid while Ti has the system. Likewise, Fe is fluid and it depends on the person and situation, but Fi has its own values and blala
> 
> I don't know how a logic system works. I can't comprehend that idea like alittlebear cannot comprehend the idea of a values system apparently?


Also wanted to add to this. Ti is a static function, which means it creates logical frameworks and models using fixed principles and axioms, so as to arrive at the "truth" of the world. 

Te is a dynamic function, which means it looks for the most effective way to deal with a situation based on the inputs that situation offers it. The most effective way depends on the situation: there are no static axioms. 

Hence Ti types think that Te types are inconclusive. Te types think that Ti types are nitpicky and possess no data.



Oswin said:


> Can you tell more? I only really have what people are telling me.


Yeah, there's a reason I typed you as ENFJ after reading your questionnaire.


> It's the emphasis on like, physical things, thinking about how temperature goes from one thing to another...it's weird, it reminds me of being a yoga class or something and people are saying 'concentrate on your breathing'...it makes me feel really weird, just like...thinking about food too much or...dirtiness, I don't know, it's weird, I don't want to think about it.
> And being comfortable...it makes me feel weird. Like I'm wasting time. I'd rather be working to something, easygoingness is not my natural state. I feel so strange when people tell me to 'relax', it's not a thing I'm good at. I'm always getting this "Relax your arm!" and I'm like, "It is relaxed! What do you want from me??
> 
> I'm usually thinking to a goal


You don't focus on personal physical impressions of the environment. Hell, they even make you uncomfortable and you don't like talking about them. That's very common in ENFJs and ENTJs because their vulnerable (don't confuse this with inferior) function is Si, and they don't like creating states of comfort. Types with higher Se and Si don't have issues with this. Your Si is hence devalued and also low.



> Time is ... the little river we're all being swept along. I never feel like there's enough. You can kill time by wasting it, not being mentally aware, living too much in yourself, not appreciating it. I hate how little time we have, and I am constantly pushed on by wanting to make the most of it.


You think of time as a river along which you get swept. That's a very Ni-ego way of looking at it, because Ni-egos typically look at time as an abstract quantity that they need to perceive and understand the flow of, whereas Se-ego types (and sensors in general), when asked to define time, will automatically talk about the purpose of time as a tool to measure the lifespan of something, or something concrete like that.

Thirdly, when you're asked to talk about beauty and your standards for it, you talk about things like effect and power instead of alluding to things like harmony of physical sensations, soothing symmetry, etc -- which someone with Si and Ti would be more likely to talk about.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Kind of random, but like I figured out how to walk again? We met with my old physical therapist person and I kind of think we figured it out. I just walked over two miles. I feel so happy. 

A bit random, but I know a few of you were concerned about that. While I've been okay generally, last week was really bad... but I think things are certainly looking up.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Didn't you get "flowers and mantis" talk yet? When a bug man loves a bug woman...
> 
> P.S. 4 am why do people have to sleep why
> can't wait to upload myself into a computer.


I hate sleeping too urgh but it's only 7 PM here.

UGH Michael Bolton.

You and cheesy Fe dom 80's-90's music.

Charity singles are the most craptastic. MJ and Ray Charles were in on this at least.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Made me appreciate an animal I typically under look.
> 
> Most of my information is recapitulation of wiki and:
> 
> Hyaena Specialist Group - The Truth About Hyaenas: debunking hyaena myths:
> 
> But there are plenty of other sources. And videos
> 
> According to the video I'm watching, "They are more aggressive, more dominate; kind of like a bad ex-girlfriend".
> 
> *Warning genitals shown*
> 
> The animal kingdom contains amazing alpha females; the praying mantis not withstanding.
> 
> The Bloodhound Gang truly understood the greatest aspect of wildlife documentaries on the Discovery Channel (do they even show those anymore? -_-).


They keep calling it a weird body part. It's just an interesting (and kind of amazing) variation. Giving birth is another matter, though.

First the praying mantis, now the spotted hyena. I keep asking, "How did this come about, Mother Nature? Did the proto mantis die too often? Did you favor the brave females that ate the males after mating because they increased their chances of survival? That is cruel and fascinating, Mother Nature."

I went searching and found this: 

The Evolution of Sexual Cannibalism

Female praying mantids use sexual cannibalism as a foraging strategy to increase fecundity


----------



## Dangerose

Amaterasu said:


> This is so wacky XD Love it. There are so many things this could be understood as, which is the amusing part.
> 
> 
> Epiiiic. As a 6 I do have a penchant for seeing through intents and careless statements that people state as fact, spot on with that!
> 
> Thank you so so much both of you, this is extraordinarily interesting. I wish I could be as intuitive (in the common sense of the term) as this!
> @tine and @laurie17, may I have some descriptions too? If you don't mind. I'm such a whore for this stuff, gosh.
> 
> 
> 
> Also wanted to add to this. Ti is a static function, which means it creates logical frameworks and models using fixed principles and axioms, so as to arrive at the "truth" of the world.
> 
> Te is a dynamic function, which means it looks for the most effective way to deal with a situation based on the inputs that situation offers it. The most effective way depends on the situation: there are no static axioms.
> 
> Hence Ti types think that Te types are inconclusive. Te types think that Ti types are nitpicky and possess no data.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, there's a reason I typed you as ENFJ after reading your questionnaire.
> 
> 
> You don't focus on personal physical impressions of the environment. Hell, they even make you uncomfortable and you don't like talking about them. That's very common in ENFJs and ENTJs because their vulnerable (don't confuse this with inferior) function is Si, and they don't like creating states of comfort. Types with higher Se and Si don't have issues with this. Your Si is hence devalued and also low.
> 
> 
> 
> You think of time as a river along which you get swept. That's a very Ni-ego way of looking at it, because Ni-egos typically look at time as an abstract quantity that they need to perceive and understand the flow of, whereas Se-ego types (and sensors in general), when asked to define time, will automatically talk about the purpose of time as a tool to measure the lifespan of something, or something concrete like that.
> 
> Thirdly, when you're asked to talk about beauty and your standards for it, you talk about things like effect and power instead of alluding to things like harmony of physical sensations, soothing symmetry, etc -- which someone with Si and Ti would be more likely to talk about.


Thank you)


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Kind of random, but like I figured out how to walk again? We met with my old physical therapist person and I kind of think we figured it out. I just walked over two miles. I feel so happy.
> 
> A bit random, but I know a few of you were concerned about that. While I've been okay generally, last week was really bad... but I think things are certainly looking up.


This is wonderful news, Bear :fall:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> This is wonderful news, Bear :fall:


Thank you.  My parents don't want me to get too excited because it doesn't make sense for me to have had as much trouble as I've been and then just... _walk_, and it is just a few hours after my appointment, but... I feel so great. It'll take a while to walk fast and run and swim and all of that, but I'm just so excited that we can see the way out at the moment


----------



## Dangerose

Bugs said:


> What does Fe-Si look like? To what extent is your Ne developed?


Oh gosh. I don't know. I'm leaning ENFJ at the moment though.
I think the problem with typology is that we only use one axis so it's difficult...especially for the introverted functions, I end up ascribing something I do to that function. i.e. I hear 'subjective sensory impressions' I think...oh, it's this phenomenon, while in fact that phenomenon might be Ni, or just something totally unrelated. So...yeah. Not quite sure. ATM ENFJ seems like the best bet.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Kind of random, but like I figured out how to walk again? We met with my old physical therapist person and I kind of think we figured it out. I just walked over two miles. I feel so happy.
> 
> A bit random, but I know a few of you were concerned about that. While I've been okay generally, last week was really bad... but I think things are certainly looking up.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> They keep calling it a weird body part. It's just an interesting (and kind of amazing) variation. Giving birth is another matter, though.
> 
> First the praying mantis, now the spotted hyena. I keep asking, "How did this come about, Mother Nature? Did the proto mantis die too often? Did you favor the brave females that ate the males after mating because they increased their chances of survival? That is cruel and fascinating, Mother Nature."
> 
> I went searching and found this:
> 
> The Evolution of Sexual Cannibalism
> 
> Female praying mantids use sexual cannibalism as a foraging strategy to increase fecundity


Well I have reading to do.

Sex is fascinating. The immaturity of high school health class was not amusing. Gore fears are understandable... but without pregnancy none of us would be alive you imbeciles. Isn't that... beautiful in it's own right? 

In fact... the pregnancy video inspired two girls to make cakes (one even provided punch) just for the occasion. One baked a pregnant lady cake and the other... a penis cake (oh Spencers and their PG-13 rated cake molds). My teacher was not amused (she got suspended)... but maybe I had some juvenile appreciation after all. :whoa:

Well if spotted hyenas can endure the suffocation of their young as well as scar complications... and are prone to witchcraft, they have to be the most bad ass female in the animal kingdom.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Thank you.  My parents don't want me to get too excited because it doesn't make sense for me to have had as much trouble as I've been and then just... _walk_, and it is just a few hours after my appointment, but... I feel so great. It'll take a while to walk fast and run and swim and all of that, but I'm just so excited that we can see the way out at the moment


I'm very happy you're seeing improvement and feeling good about it :smilet-digitalpoint 



hoopla said:


> Well I have reading to do.
> 
> Sex is fascinating. The immaturity of high school health class was not amusing. Gore fears are understandable... but without pregnancy none of us would be alive you imbeciles. Isn't that... beautiful in it's own right?
> 
> In fact... the pregnancy video inspired two girls to make cakes (one even provided punch) just for the occasion. One baked a pregnant lady cake and the other... a penis cake (oh Spencers and their PG-13 rated cake molds). My teacher was not amused (she got suspended)... but maybe I had some juvenile appreciation after all. :whoa:


We didn't have a pregnancy video. The only thing I remember from high school is someone separating the boys and girls and hearing a safe sex speech. I was horrified to learn that fifteen-year-old girls still referred to losing their virginity as "popping your cherry," among other things :hopelessness: 

///​ 
I want to get rid of my curiosity, so I'm going to re-post two questionnaires. Everyone is free to share their opinion, including the lurkers.


* *





*Who are you?*

There is no one else like me and there never will be. I would like to be the consciousness, soul, ghost in a cyborg body because I am not all this fleshy stuff. Take away my physical aspects, give me a new face, I am still the same person. I am my thoughts and feelings.

*When you are at your best, what is your personality like?*

Impossible question. I am a constant work in progress. What is best today is muddy water tomorrow.

*What do you show other people on a regular basis?*

They see someone who is reserved and quiet, someone who is not quick to action, someone who prefers sitting by herself reading a book or listening to thunder. I show my knowledge of a subject if someone needs or wants it. I show my caring side and, at times, I show my silliness. In other words, they see a wall or the surface of a frozen lake.

*What do you keep hidden from them?*

The greatest thing I own is myself, my body but more importantly my mind. I feel I have to protect that. I can't give my thoughts and feelings away so freely. I would lose ownership of myself. If I share all there is, what do I have to go back to when I'm alone in my mind? It's not that I'd have nothing to think or feel or ponder. It's that I would be transparent and people would look into me and figure me all out. I'd be public. I need to keep my secrets, there has to be something that no one else in the world knows about me. I always feel a bit emptier after self-disclosing, like the shell that is my body is hollowing out because I keep giving away bits of my essence. Pieces of me are walking around without my control and I hate the thought of it. In that sense, I keep my core self hidden.

Approaching the question a bit more simply, I hide my softer emotions and my vulnerabilities because not everyone will understand or appreciate the effort it takes to let them out. I also hide my “creative” side because stories and sketches are strictly for myself. 

*What, when they ask you about it, do you find hard to put into words?*

My feelings for the most part. Sometimes I don’t have the words to describe what I’m feeling because some feelings can’t be condensed that way. Some things are easier to express through actions, even small ones. The downfall is that not everyone can interpret those actions, not everyone will even notice.

*What do you want to do with your life?*

I simply want to make it worth something, to myself and others. I want to die knowing my presence on this earth wasn’t a candle snuffing out, inconsequential to anything or anyone.

*What are your two most defining traits?*

Quiet and lost in thought. That’s what most people would say if they had to describe me. Barring that, I would say… my appreciation for simple things, like handmade gifts because I find them more personal and representative of an emotional bond. Sitting down with someone and simply talking isn’t a bad way to pass the time. I would also say it’s my depth of feeling. Even though I do my best to keep them below the surface, I care very deeply for people and ideas. If I stand for someone or something, I’m in it for the long-haul.





* *





*Personal concepts*

*1. What is beauty? What is love?*

Beauty is purity of feeling. The sound of a baby’s laughter is pure and beautiful. It’s genuine and sincere and bubbles forth without restraint. It’s also sitting on a shoreline and appreciating the way the moon affects the shape and movement of the waves, biting into a plum and understanding a plum is one way nature propagates itself, looking up at the night sky and feeling smaller than the stars visible to your naked eye.

Love is a connection that runs so deep it meshes the external with the internal. Someone’s happiness is your happiness, their pain is your pain. The loss of something or someone is the loss of something inside yourself.

*2. What are your most important values?*

I value honesty and I value truth. I don’t want to leave this world with false or misguided beliefs, even if those beliefs are more nurturing than reality. I need to know I've understood this one life I have, as best as I can understand this life with the sources available to me. I don’t want to waste my one opportunity to experience myself and experience the world.

I also value respect and appreciation. All life exists once. I look at my dog and understand he has one life to live, at most sixteen years, and I want to make those sixteen years worthwhile. If you've one life to live, what meaning is there in living a life of pain, not knowing the simple happiness of a hug or soft bed? The thought is obviously more painful when I consider human lives, those lives born into pain and ending in pain.

*3. Do you have any sort of spiritual/religious beliefs, and why do you hold (or don't) those beliefs in the first place?*

I was born into spirituality and religious observance. My parents introduced me to their church when I was a newborn. I spent the first years of my life attending church on a weekly basis. There were a few years where I stayed home on Sundays, but religion deeply rooted itself in my life when I was ten years old.

I remember standing in class reciting the pledge of allegiance. I kept thinking about my sadness and dissatisfaction. Why was my life this way? What was I missing? I thought about my belief in God, and that’s when it clicked that I saw God as an addition to my life rather than the origin and center of my life. I also took an interest in religion and a higher power because it was a source of intellectual curiosity. I thought about death and dying, and I realized I couldn’t leave this world without understanding what it meant to die. I always heard, “You only know there is a heaven when you die and go there,” but I knew there was a chance you could die and simply cease to exist. How, then, could I have my answer?

I explored these feelings until I was fifteen years old. That’s when I started to separate myself from my upbringing and my parents’ beliefs. I could not reconcile who I was and who I was supposed to be in the eyes of God, and I could not reconcile what I had learned throughout my childhood and what I was beginning to learn in my young adulthood. I remember my biology teacher saying, “The biggest crisis I had in my childhood was deciding whether or not there existed a god.” The class laughed at his admission, but I understood his struggle.

I ultimately lost the belief in a higher power and a life after death. I’m most comfortable labeling myself an agnostic atheist because I acknowledge I can’t prove or disprove anything. It is simply what I believe. The existence or non-existence of a higher power no longer has any bearing on my life.

*4. Opinion on war and militaries? What is power to you?*

I avoid thinking about this for the most part. People abuse each other and will always abuse each other. People want influence over one another, they want control and they want submission. Power, to me, is knowledge and the strength to use that knowledge for the sake of diplomacy and human progress. You could say I’m a pacifist and have an idealistic vision of the world, a vision I know will most likely never come to pass.
*
Interests*

*5. What have you had long conversations about? What are your interests? Why?*

I like to think and talk about social progress, the mind and its inner workings, our significance or insignificance, and future human life. I’ll talk about what I find most interesting in this list.

When I think about our place in the world, I think about whales. It’s hard for me to put into words, and I know I must sound ridiculous right now. For me, whales have always been beautiful and terrifying. I think about whales and see the progress and enormity of creation, and I use the word “creation” very loosely here because I see nature as having created itself. Whales and other sea-dwelling animals have been around longer than we have. They’ve experienced this world and dwelled in this world longer than the human race as we know it has existed. I put myself in the perspective of an outside viewer, literally seeing the totality of the earth, its continents and its oceans and its living things. What defines the earth? What inspires awe? I say it’s natural creation. We have no ownership of the earth and its systems. It existed before us and would continue to exist should we disappear. It’s disconcerting that the earth is the only planet we know of that thrives with life, and yet we choose to destroy that life and uniqueness.

Having said that, I’m not against progress, specifically technological progress. It’s always disappointing to me when a show or book heavy with science fiction elements chooses to demonize technology. “Look at the borg! This is the meaning of technology! The loss of our humanity and uniqueness!” I’ve never liked the argument that the more we focus on things like technology and scientific progress, the more we stray from our humanity. The question so rampant in science fiction -- “Are you less human the more removed you are from your body?” -- has always had an obvious answer for me. No, of course not. Humanity is about the mind and the heart, not the body. When I think about the direction we’re taking with technology and science, I think about the way we’ll be forced to reevaluate life and personhood.

On a practical level, technology can improve our quality of life if used responsibly.

Those are some of my ridiculous interests and rambles.

*6. Interested in health/medicine as a conversation topic? Are you focused on your body?*

I’m interested in mental health and psychiatry. I think it’s interesting how love and kindness are such abstract concepts, and yet they have origins in the structures and chemicals of the brain. People diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, for example, have brains that are structurally and/or chemically different from the average person’s brain. Childhood trauma, whether physical or emotional, can alter brain development and affect emotional expression. I don’t think emotions come from an intangible, ethereal place, but I don’t care to break down human life into chemical reactions either. 

I also feel very strongly about removing the stigma surrounding mental illness, and I’d like to make a difference in the lives of people who struggle with it day to day.

I don’t have any particular focus on my body.

*7. What do you think of daily chores?*

They’re necessary. What else is there to say? I don’t mind dishes piling up in the sink or laundry overflowing a bit. I get to them eventually. I don’t let my surroundings turn into a trash heap.

*8. Books or films you liked? Recently read/watched or otherwise. Examples welcome.*

Short lists of whatever comes to mind.

Books: The Blind Assassin (Margaret Atwood), The Left Hand of Darkness (Ursula K. Le Guin), Birthday of the World (Ursula K. Le Guin), Perdido Street Station (China Mieville), Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami).

Movies & Shows: Star Trek: The Next Generation, Battlestar Galactica, Orange is the New Black, Parks and Recreation, Sherlock, Alien, Europa Report, Equilibrium.

*9. What has made you cry? What has made you smile? Why?*

What an overly personal question. Next.

*10. Where do you feel: at one with the environment/a sense of belonging?*

I hardly ever feel at one with the environment. I admire natural beauty, but I have a hard time interacting with it. I would say… I feel most at one when I’m staring out into the ocean, preferably at night. The vastness of the ocean inspires awe and terror at the same time. I’m staring at “the beyond,” and I always picture the earth as it looks from outer space. The ocean is a reminder of what I’m standing on and where I fit in it. I suppose this also covers the sense of belonging.

*Evaluation & Behaviour*

*11. What have people seen as your weaknesses? What do you dislike about yourself?
*
My lack of sociality has always been a problem. People think so. I think so. I’ve always considered emotions my weakness. I try to distance myself from them because I can’t always handle their intensity. I’d rather experience a degree of apathy than the ups and downs of emotions. This is a good time to mention I’ve been diagnosed with major depressive disorder.

*12. What have people seen as your strengths? What do you like about yourself?*

I’m thorough, thoughtful, and “intellectually curious,” as one professor once put it. I’m also willing to listen to someone even if there are three years of silence between us. I like that I care deeply about certain things and want to make a difference in someone’s life, whether directly or indirectly.

*13. In what areas of your life would you like help?*

My feels. My social ineptitude.My trouble brainstorming.

*14. Ever feel stuck in a rut? If yes, describe the causes and your reaction to it.*

Yes. What person has never been in a rut? I’m not going to include my depression or anxiety in this answer because there is no controlling that side of me without medication. That is the fact of it.

I feel stuck in a rut whenever I’m not doing something useful with my mind, when I spend a long period of time achieving nothing, and by “achieving” I mean something as simple as learning something new or reading a book. My mind needs something to do or something to focus on. I also feel stuck in a rut when I'm kept from accomplishing my goals, either because I procrastinate or because I lack the motivation. I need to see certain things through, personal motivations, and I get angry and irritated when I make no progress. I am wasting my time and my life. I usually react by giving myself a reality check or rethinking my plans and intentions.

*People & Interactions*

*15. What qualities do you most like and dislike in other people? What types do you get along with?*

I like authenticity, creativity, openness, thoughtfulness, a well-developed world view, someone who seeks knowledge and introduces me to new ideas or perspectives. I prefer when someone is upfront and doesn’t resort to passive aggression or ambiguity. I dislike a sense of pride, the kind of pride that keeps someone from admitting they are wrong or need to rethink their point of view. It’s the kind of pride that likes to belittle you and draw attention away from its own sense of inferiority. I also dislike anyone who is uncaring and doesn’t stop to think about experiences beyond their own. 

*16. How do you feel about romance/sex? What qualities do you want in a partner?*

I’ve never cared much for romantic relationships. I never pursue a relationship. Relationships simply develop on their own over a period of time. To me, relationships are only worth starting if there is an intention to treat the relationship seriously. I don’t mean there has to be a long-term commitment. On the contrary. We need to have realistic expectations about the relationship and understand how it could develop over time. If it doesn’t have the potential to go anywhere, then there is no point in starting one in the first place. I don’t like having relationships for fun or mere companionship. I’m fine on my own.

But it wasn’t until I started thinking about this question that I realized I’ve never had a traditional relationship. It’s a bit hard to follow tradition under my circumstances, but even then my relationships haven’t been traditional. I separate sex from romantic feelings, although I do feel it’s best when you care about the person. To summarize, I don’t have a problem with close friends having sex with each other simply because they want to, or a polyamorous relationship, or even a romantic relationship that doesn’t involve sex. As for sex itself, it’s whatever the person wants it to be. I don’t care for traditional definitions of sex because they can be very limiting and also invalidate sexual expression that doesn’t conform to the male/female standard.

As for qualities, I would say the same qualities I look for in other people, with the added quality of maturity and emotional independence. I don’t do well with people who are emotionally fragile.

*17. If you were to raise a child, what would be your main concerns, what measures would you take, and why?*

I have no intention of raising a child, but…

Main Concerns & Measures

emotional health 
overall health 
access to healthy social environments 
access to good education 
healthy and supportive family figures in their life 
healthy sense of self-worth 
an understanding of social differences, sexuality, etc. 
confidence in the fact they will not be harmed or judged by family 
freedom to pursue their own interests 

*18. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward and outward reaction?*

My inward reaction is one of disappointment. I try my best to befriend people who don’t belittle or devalue my beliefs, but there is always someone who will casually denigrate a person or group of people, or a person who will try to make you feel stupid for believing what you do. My outward reaction is one of confrontation. I engage them in discussion, present my point of view, explain the significance it has for me, and so on. Either they understand and choose to respect my point of view, as I choose to respect theirs, or they choose to insult or attack what I believe. In that case, I lose respect for them.

*19. Describe your relationship to society. How do you see people as a whole? What do you consider a prevalent social problem? Name one.*

I feel separate from society. I don’t keep up with trends or popular culture. I don’t think about the way people perceive me unless it has a direct impact on my happiness. I don’t frequently engage with the world. I don’t stay connected through social media. I haven’t seen one of my close friends in over a year even though we talk to each other on a regular basis. Life, work, distance, introversion. This is who I am. 

People as a whole are… they’re just trying to get by. I don’t believe they’re bad or good. I don’t believe they’re impure or pure. They just are. They have the potential to be better than they are, and they have the potential to be worse than they are. I don’t measure their worth based on intelligence or good will or altruism. Everyone has a secret or bit of darkness tucked away inside. Everyone has their struggle, ignorance, and moments of cruelty.

An obvious social problem is inequality. Some people are incapable or unwilling to look outside of their own experiences. They have their bubble of safety and don’t want anyone breaching that bubble. Sociocultural ignorance plays a part in this. Limited world views play a part in this. We need more enthusiasm for diversity, understanding, and acceptance.

*20. How do you choose your friends and how do you behave around them?*

Refer to #15.

I’m open with friends, although there still exists a barrier between us. I’m used to being on my own and doing things on my own. As much as I enjoy a friend’s company, I need time away to recharge. I always appreciate when a friend checks up on me or admits to missing me. I prefer emotional openness and a steady stream of communication. People who are passive and expect or want me to be the sole initiator in the friendship don’t mesh well with me.

*21. How do you behave around strangers?*

It depends on the situation. If it’s academic or professional, I do what I have to do to appear my best. Otherwise, I’m on the quieter side and prefer getting a sense of who they are as a person before engaging them.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Greatest part of the lion king.
> 
> I am serious. It's a spiritual journey.
> 
> My favorite Disney Movie though is a quick toss up between Aladdin and Little Mermaid. Belle is an SFJ and I never related to her at all, even though I know she was made to tug at the heartstrings of bookworms like me (before depression made reading almost impossible lol). I related the most to... Ariel. I am not an Fi.
> 
> This is why people's favorite characters should not be used to type.


I always related to Belle. But it seems to be less strong of a connection when I think of it. I was always more...rebellious than her. A touch of Jasmine or Ariel. 

I have trouble choosing a favourite disney princess. Ariel is my first so I will always have a special place in my heart, but I think more and more that Rapunzel or Jasmine might be my favourite (what type is Jasmine?). Or Mulan. aaaah. Basically it all changes depending on my mood/what I watched last. As does my favourite film. (_Beauty and the Beast _is what I usually go with, or_ Tangled_).

If we get outside the characters considered "Disney Princesses", my favourite is Megara. I'm lukewarm on _Hercules_ as a whole, but I _adore_ Megara.

But yeah, my favourite characters don't seem to reflect my type.

My favourite old-school Disney film is easier to pick: _Sleeping Beauty_. I love how much thought went into the art. The style is so distinctive. And Maleficent is by far my favourite villain. She is so elegant and intimidating.


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> Kind of random, but like I figured out how to walk again? We met with my old physical therapist person and I kind of think we figured it out. I just walked over two miles. I feel so happy.
> 
> A bit random, but I know a few of you were concerned about that. While I've been okay generally, last week was really bad... but I think things are certainly looking up.


This is wonderful. My heart is so happy. ^_^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Thank you everyone.  

I wrote up a post about me and Disney a few minutes ago but I lost it. Gah. I'll try to add to conversation soon.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Love Disney. My childhood fave was Sleeping Beauty. But now its all about Tangled, L.Mermaid, and B.&the Beast.

I identify the most with Jasmine, but my fave is prob Anna from Frozen.


----------



## Immolate

I haven't seen Tangled or any other princess movie that's come out recently.

Mulan, Belle, and Maleficent for me


----------



## Metalize

And I'm probably not popular enough to request mine, heh.


----------



## Immolate

Metasentient said:


> And I'm probably not popular enough to request mine, heh.


Hm? Your type?

Write stuff up and post.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Metasentient said:


> And I'm probably not popular enough to request mine, heh.


You always seemed like one of those ultra-popular people to me honestly. shhh, don't tell me anything to challenge that view


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I relate the most to Rapunzel by far. I love her joy, her happiness, her optimism, the power of her dream and of her expansive love for life and humanity. She is perfect. My problem is that I am not perfect. I dream of perpetually being her dancing with the townspeople, but I know at the same time that this is a pipe dream. I am too in my head, too awkward, too introspective. I am detached from the world and only awkwardly interact with it unless I am with children or comforting someone. All the same, I dream. 

I think Princess and the Frog is the best Disney Princess movie of the century so far though. It's gorgeous. The characters are wonderful. It's an inspiring story, truly. The villain creeps me out, I almost have to skip over all of his parts, but apart from that.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> I always related to Belle. Though , if I am being honest, I feel less like her ever since I started seeing her as an ISFJ ^^;;; And I was always more...rebellious than her. A touch of Jasmine or Ariel.


I would have to re-watch Beauty and the Beast. Clearly they tried to write her as an introvert, but the Fe may be dominate. I wonder if I do remind you of her out of curiosity? The disconnect may be the film itself. I loved the art and music, but at 5 years old something about that film gave me a bad taste in my mouth. I realized it was that Belle was a carbon cut out, a stereotype rather than a multifaced human character (though they certainly *tried* to create something with depth)... and the Stockholm syndrome. I just knew something wasn't right with that relationship, but I was too young to put a finger on it. I still hate that movie. 

Yes, docile with a fire. That is how I see you. I can recall my mother saying my incapability of being rebellious was a blessing. Another reason I felt I was "born wrong". Ha.



fair phantom said:


> II have trouble choosing a favourite disney princess. Ariel is my first so I will always have a special place in my heart, but I think more and more that Rapunzel or Jasmine might be my favourite (what type is Jasmine?). Or Mulan. aaaah. Basically it all changes depending on my mood/what I watched last. As does my favourite film. (_Beauty and the Beast _is what I usually go with, or_ Tangled_).


Ariel is hands down my favorite Disney princess... and the feminist arguments that she was "in it for a boy therefore sexist" got it all wrong. In fact, the English literature major (even if theoretical) in you may scoff when I say she may have been a better depiction of teenage romantic naivety than Romeo and Juliet. Yes. I went there. 

Tangled was good but my feelings on Rapunzel were mixed. She was a stock character I thought. It annoyed me.

Every feminist hearts Mulan. I was about 4 or 5 when I saw it. The movie never particularly interested me... though I did enjoy her conflict with the force to adhere to something that wasn't her and the exhaustion it provided; and her defeat. I think it was the whole roleplaying as a boy thing, but I should rewatch it again. I believe I would see it a new way and interest would be renewed.

Jasmine is typically typed ESFP. Too long since I've watched it, but she was Fi-Te if memory serves. I admire Esmerelda as well... especially after being compared to her (I type her ENFJ). It's the social justice activism isn't it?



fair phantom said:


> IIf we get outside the characters considered "Disney Princesses", my favourite is Megara. I'm lukewarm on _Hercules_ as a whole, but I _adore_ Megara.


Yes Megara was the best thing in Hercules (next to Hades). I enjoy it and I don't care what anyone else says. I would say my favorite non-Disney princess is Alice. I am basically her however.



fair phantom said:


> IMy favourite old-school Disney film is easier to pick: _Sleeping Beauty_. I love how much thought went into the art. The style is so distinctive. And Maleficent is by far my favourite villain. She is so elegant and intimidating.


See that movie bored me. Beautiful art but I could never get into it. I only cared for the fairies (I loved those cute little stock characters) and Maleficent (for your reasons cited). Too slow moving and Auora was a Snow White regurgitation. The gothic (I mostly speak of the literary genre, which the film seemed to pull from) sophistication, elegance and romance fits you well though.

....Picking a classic is hard. Fav contemporary is hands down Little Mermaid but... urgh. I guess if I had to choose it would be Snow White, but Dumbo, Alice in Wonderland and Pinocchio springs to mind. Also the Aristocats... I know it's commonly criticized but great art/music and I'm a cat lover so it's right up my alley (see what I did there). 

Probably Alice in Wonderland actually.


Forget picking a fav villain. Not going to happen.

Favorite underrated Disney movie? Great Mouse Detective! Ever seen it @angelcat? It's the Disney version of Sherlock Holmes. You would love it! Main character was a Ti dom... been too long to recall Se vs Ne, but I lean ISTP if memory serves. Vincent Price voiced Ratigan and considered it the most enjoyable aspect of his career. He fucking loved it and it showed.

I've never seen Treasure Planet but I should. <3 Steam Punk.



For shits and giggles

Had to laugh (wait I laugh?) at the Lion King and Jungle Book descriptions.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I actually dislike Beauty and the Beast the Disney movie. I just... do not like it. It is unhealthy, and claustrophobic. She's trapped in that house unjustly and she falls in love with him. I would not fall in love with him. I would be kinder to him and more charming to him, but I would not fall in love with him just because he had a library he let me use. My love takes more than that. I mean, I know the transformation was deeper than that, but there are a lot of people who agree that the relationship is messed up. 

It's funny, though. My old friend was literally Gaston. Even he identified as Gaston. Like an intellectual Gaston who was intentionally brutish and offensive, misogynistic and racist and homophobic because he thought he was making a point about political correctness. He even started a porn blog to bug me. Ah. I shouldn't miss him, but I do. Outwardly bad guy, but he knew it. He was just trying to hide his goodness, which I suppose he thought vulnerable to outwardly show ^^

People say I am Belle. I identified as her for a while, because I read _Beastly_ and decided I was the main character Linda, which I supposed made me Belle by default. I think she is too unaware though. Too loud and assertive only to shrivel back. And at the same time too unkind and stubborn. Like, you could tell they made her to be feminist? But unlike Mulan, I don't think they hit it. They were still trying to create a feminine character, just add a little bit of intellect to her. That is not. Strength is more than that. 

I'm being critical, but... Meh. I do not much like BATB. Only Chip.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Why I related to Ariel?

No I wasn't rebellious... but she was in my heart. The questioning. Should her daddy really be sheltering her so much? The wonder. The curiosity. The suffocation of being over relied upon, of all the expectations and duties of that of which you must be, the stifling of your independence. Wandering free, exploring another world beyond one you are completely desensitized to. I wanted to find all those marvelous treasures right along with her! The very rush of enduring sharks just to get to the bottom of something... I wanted to be there.

That film always represented freedom, independence, curiosity and questioning. Especially of authority figures whom may not always know what's best, even if they're blinded into believing so because "that's just how it is". That's why it's my favorite.

I felt like I should have related to Belle because she was designed for "girls like me"... but that's the thing. She was "designed". She wasn't human. Ariel was.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> I actually dislike Beauty and the Beast the Disney movie. I just... do not like it. It is unhealthy, and claustrophobic. She's trapped in that house unjustly and she falls in love with him. I would not fall in love with him. I would be kinder to him and more charming to him, but I would not fall in love with him just because he had a library he let me use. My love takes more than that. I mean, I know the transformation was deeper than that, but there are a lot of people who agree that the relationship is messed up.
> 
> It's funny, though. My old friend was literally Gaston. Even he identified as Gaston. Like an intellectual Gaston who was intentionally brutish and offensive, misogynistic and racist and homophobic because he thought he was making a point about political correctness. He even started a porn blog to bug me. Ah. I shouldn't miss him, but I do. Outwardly bad guy, but he knew it. He was just trying to hide his goodness, which I suppose he thought vulnerable to outwardly show ^^
> 
> People say I am Belle. I identified as her for a while, because I read _Beastly_ and decided I was the main character Linda, which I supposed made me Belle by default. I think she is too unaware though. Too loud and assertive only to shrivel back. And at the same time too unkind and stubborn. Like, you could tell they made her to be feminist? But unlike Mulan, I don't think they hit it. They were still trying to create a feminine character, just add a little bit of intellect to her. That is not. Strength is more than that.
> 
> I'm being critical, but... Meh. I do not much like BATB. Only Chip.


I agree with your analysis except....

I would *not* have been kind to the beast. He is not the person you should be kind to. Yes, he had a tough past but *fuck* that Freudian excuse. He made her uncomfortable, he made her feel wary... get him counseling. It was not her obligation or duty to fix or take care of him. You could argue the end of the film was just a honeymoon phase. Nasty nasty message. That movie makes me angry. She should have run as fast as she could.

Well your friend sounds lovely. I loved Gaston though... he was hilarious. A great deconstruction of sexist men... but "OOOH this movie is so feminist because she rejects a sexist and then becomes the caretaker of an abuser". -_-

I should read Beastly.

No, never stop being critical. Ruin things. Get people to see them differently. To think about them.

You are basically Chip.


----------



## Immolate

^Favorite






^Love Ursula.






^This creep made me so angry.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla was thinking over your Ariel thing in the back of my head and then went... Oh. She might have some 6 in her after all. Counterphobic, of course, but... wanting to challenge authority? And, as you say, the questioning? I'm going to paraphrase @westlose, hopefully not to the point of mischaracterization... She mentioned on a typing topic that to her the 6 core made her seek knowledge, that's one of her main drives. That's not the usual interpretation of 6 - only 5s care about expanding their minds, donchaknow - but I can see the truth in it. 6s want knowledge for fun, don't they? I can see that fitting you more than the obsessive 5 gathering of knowledge for survival. 

On the Beast, you are quite right about that. I think it was harmful for them to portray the Beast as so positive, and Belle's "saving" of him appropriate. The relationship was not outright abusive to the tricky, seductive psychological depths of Twilight and the Grey crap, but... It's a start. Fuels the "I can save my love!" mentality. 

I remember... BATB didn't give me that idea, but it did...

Give me that idea that attraction does not have to be physical. You don't have to like them, you have to look beyond and love their heart! When that boy asked me out early in high school, I said yes even though I had absolutely no fancy for him looks wise or personality wise because I thought... If I try hard enough, I can like him. And he said he had that terrible crush on me forever, who was I to rob him of his dream? It was terrible. My parents had to explain to me that aesthetic attraction is sort of an important component. If you personally find them distasteful to the eye, don't go for it. There will be someone who appreciates them naturally. It doesn't have to be you. 

Not the most harmful of BATB messages, but it's the one that made me fumble. 

And... Yes, no one should warm to the Beast, but that's what I would do. I'm usually the ever-loving, kindred person. Love until the ice cracks. Not romantically, but platonically (even though when you do this they get romantic attraction to you... eh. But you also convince them not to do drugs and inspire them to do better in life, so it's worth the little heartbreak your existence makes them suffer). I don't think that this message should be shared - that we should have a Disney princess who charms an abusive person - but... just knowing myself, that is sadly of course what I would do. I could not resent a person for such a long period of time, especially when they were the only person in my company.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> ^Favorite



My first musical number I participated in


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> My first musical number I participated in


enguin:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> enguin:


In high school. I danced in coordination to the people singing and did some light chorus things. It was fun. I never liked the song much, still don't, but it was a fun song to participate in.

Edit: somehow I did not see the penguin dancing? It somehow changes my response, ha. Regardless, yeah I guess ^^


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=78336" target="_blank">hoopla</a></i></span> was thinking over your Ariel thing in the back of my head and then went... Oh. She might have some 6 in her after all. Counterphobic, of course, but... wanting to challenge authority? And, as you say, the questioning? I'm going to paraphrase @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=167866" target="_blank">westlose</a></i></span>, hopefully not to the point of mischaracterization... She mentioned on a typing topic that to her the 6 core made her seek knowledge, that's one of her main drives. That's not the usual interpretation of 6 - only 5s care about expanding their minds, donchaknow - but I can see the truth in it. 6s want knowledge for fun, don't they? I can see that fitting you more than the obsessive 5 gathering of knowledge for survival.


This is very interesting. 7w6 I could certainly see for Ariel (8 is in the tritype right?)!

That is a very interesting interpretation of 6. I'd have to think about it. I'd say knowledge is mostly for fun but survival is also a proponent. Only way to protect yourself from harmful misinformation.

I would say 6 is interested more so in conceptual or theoretical knowledge just to die a thirst, and 5 is more preservation? This is Ariel... knowledge of people... of a thing she didn't know. Still not sold (though I do see her as counter phobic 6 now that you say it) as I need more knowledge and to think about it more, but interesting!



alittlebear said:


> On the Beast, you are quite right about that. I think it was harmful for them to portray the Beast as so positive, and Belle's "saving" of him appropriate. The relationship was not outright abusive to the tricky, seductive psychological depths of Twilight and the Grey crap, but... It's a start. Fuels the "I can save my love!" mentality.


Twilight is basically Disney's BATB for adolescents. The eerie parallel is both displayed a shy, meek girl interested in a mythological figure whom was abusive but "sweet" underneath it all. I should compose a pseudo essay on this phenomenon.



alittlebear said:


> I remember... BATB didn't give me that idea, but it did...
> 
> Give me that idea that attraction does not have to be physical. You don't have to like them, you have to look beyond and love their heart! When that boy asked me out early in high school, I said yes even though I had absolutely no fancy for him looks wise or personality wise because I thought... If I try hard enough, I can like him. And he said he had that terrible crush on me forever, who was I to rob him of his dream? It was terrible. My parents had to explain to me that aesthetic attraction is sort of an important component. If you personally find them distasteful to the eye, don't go for it. There will be someone who appreciates them naturally. It doesn't have to be you.


I used to think like this until I realized I'm like everyone else and do like an attractive aspect. Le sigh for shallowness. It's certainly not everything though.



alittlebear said:


> And... Yes, no one should warm to the Beast, but that's what I would do. I'm usually the ever-loving, kindred person. Love until the ice cracks. Not romantically, but platonically (even though when you do this they get romantic attraction to you... eh. *But you also convince them not to do drugs* and inspire them to do better in life, so it's worth the little heartbreak your existence makes them suffer). I don't think that this message should be shared - that we should have a Disney princess who charms an abusive person - but... just knowing myself, that is sadly of course what I would do. I could not resent a person for such a long period of time, especially when they were the only person in my company.







Sorry I had to. 

Also it didn't work.

This is exactly my problem (though you agree). It honestly *scares* me. Disney subconsciously created encouragement of girls with your temperament to take care of abusers. This is highly rampant in our culture. Please never date the Beast. Save your soul. You need mace. 

I can also see why you were compared to Belle


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla I will respond tomorrow, but right now my mind is not as clear as I think the response deserves. It was nice speaking with you, though!

Wasn't it you who said BATB was Twilight like long ago, and we disagreed? I can see it now. Oh, shifting perspectives.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

alittlebear said:


> @hooplaWasn't it you who said BATB was Twilight like long ago, and we disagreed? I can see it now. Oh, shifting perspectives.


Not to nitpick... but I think this is where the Ne argument stems from.

However you type is your choice and I shouldn't even be getting into this. Just more understanding for you.

Ignore this and only respond to my other sentiments please. I beg of you to internalize any response you have to this.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Edit: @hoopla I am so sorry, I did not read the post fully last night and see the last sentence. That was rude of me, but I did not mean that way. I won't reference it further ^^


----------



## Immolate

@hoopla @alittlebear I wouldn't say type 5 is about preservation, at least not entirely. Knowledge is power, makes you self-sufficient and less vulnerable, but it also defines you as a person, it's about genuine curiosity, so on and so forth.

I also see the parallel between Beauty and the Beast and Twilight, although I always wondered... how old is the Beast/Prince? When was he turned? Because that would explain a few things.


----------



## Dangerose

@hoopla, @alittlebear, what is happening here??? BATB is not about Stolkholm Syndrome (only if you're looking at it from a weirdly literalistic point of view), it is about people's worth being separate from their appearance and their external veneer? And the redeeming qualities of love? Which is a good thing? What ood alternate universe have I stepped into?
I did not like the movie, it was so . . . unoriginal and obviously designed to please the audience, the animation was really bland and it just felt . . . uninspired, but the story is one of the most classic stories with I thought a very obvious and positive, necessary message. A message difficult to convey in a non-cheesy manner, but honestly...there's a reason so many fairytales have this same structure.





To me Sleeping Beauty is the ultimate Disney musical and the ultimate fairy tale. I can't even begin to express how much it means to me. Snow White and Sleeping Beauty have the most beautiful animation (excepting The Jungle Book and Frozen). And the stories were 'Disneyfied' but I think they really kept the core message of the stories and presented them in the best way possible. Which you could not say for Tangled or the Princess and the Frog (a movie which makes me angry on about 200 different levels). Tangled was a nice movie, but it was just that . . . a nice movie. I think it really was lacking the pure fairy tale essence that the classic movies kept, it's not really the movie that you will show to your children a hundred times and feel good about it because you know it is helping them internalize some central messages. It's a story, it lost it's mythological elements. Same with Frozen to some extent, though I really do love Frozen and think it's Disney's best effort since...Cinderella?

The Little Mermaid makes me unspeakably angry. Actually...nah, I will talk about it. First of all, Ariel is so selfish. Everything she does is about what she wants. She talks back to her father, runs away from home, makes a deal with a devil-figure, so she can chase her prince and whatever, walk on dry land. And does she learn a lesson? No, not really. She gets everything she wants. In the original story, she wanted to be human so she could have a soul (and because of her love for the Prince). Every step she took hurt her feet, she gave up everything, and the ending is like:


> If the Little Mermaid slays the prince with the dagger and lets his blood drip on her feet, she will become a mermaid once more, all her suffering will end, and she will live out her full life in the ocean with her family.
> However, the Little Mermaid cannot bring herself to kill the sleeping prince lying with his new bride, and she throws the dagger and herself off the ship into the water just as dawn breaks. Her body dissolves into foam, but instead of ceasing to exist, she feels the warm sun and discovers that she has turned into a luminous and ethereal earthbound spirit, a daughter of the air. As the Little Mermaid ascends into the atmosphere, she is greeted by other daughters who tell her she has become like them because she strove with all her heart to obtain an immortal soul. Because of her selflessness, she will be given the chance to earn her own soul by doing good deeds to mankind for 300 years and will one day rise up into the Kingdom of God.


which is so beautiful and meaningful, but they bastardized it and turned it into 'selfish brat wants to know about fire so she makes a deal with a witch and then everything turns out great'.
And the animation is so tacky. They could have done beautiful underwater effects, but they made it this ridiculous coloring book style. I wish it had a bit more of the character of this version, which was really beautifully done I thought (and I love the song):


----------



## Barakiel

I'm more in the camp where I think it's so overhyped, I don't care anymore; it's why I can't watch _The Lion King_ anymore, even though Jeremy Irons is in it, and he's awesome. :dry: As for Beauty and the Beast, good for its time, but I prefer the stuff coming out now, at least, the good stuff like _Tangled_ and _Frozen_. (Yes, I consider _Frozen_ good. Well, at least decent.  )
@Oswin, @alittlebear, @hoopla, have I offended you with my antipathy yet? :wink:


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> I would have to re-watch Beauty and the Beast. Clearly they tried to write her as an introvert, but the Fe may be dominate. I wonder if I do remind you of her out of curiosity? The disconnect may be the film itself. I loved the art and music, but at 5 years old something about that film gave me a bad taste in my mouth. I realized it was that Belle was a carbon cut out, a stereotype rather than a multifaced human character (though they certainly *tried* to create something with depth)... and the Stockholm syndrome. I just knew something wasn't right with that relationship, but I was too young to put a finger on it. I still hate that movie.


Yeah I think I was just drawn to her when I was young because at the time because I feel like there weren't other heroines like her/me, in the sense of being bookish and introverted. It did fill a void. But as more and more female heroines-who-read emerge I feel less-and-less attached to Belle. TBH I'm not quite on board with the Stockholm Syndrome thing. I feel like that criticism has been repeated over and over and I don't think it actually has much merit. I think it is kind of an insult to Belle, implying that she was only able to empathize with Beast because of the close contact. When really Beast changed to suit her. He adopted _her _values.

What did make me mad was that there was no indication that she went and had adventures at the end of the story. I feel like she gave up her dreams. That is _my_ main issue with Belle and _Beauty and the Beast_



> Yes, docile with a fire. That is how I see you. I can recall my mother saying my incapability of being rebellious was a blessing. Another reason I felt I was "born wrong". Ha.


Thank you :hotneko:Yeah I was definitely not incapable of rebellion. I didn't really do a lot of the cliche rebellion stuff, but if a rule seemed arbitrary and unfair to me I wanted to break it. I did a lot of sneaking in to places I wasn't supposed to be or at times I wasn't supposed to be there. But that was curiousity as well as rebellion.



> Ariel is hands down my favorite Disney princess... and the feminist arguments that she was "in it for a boy therefore sexist" got it all wrong. In fact, the English literature major (even if theoretical) in you may scoff when I say she may have been a better depiction of teenage romantic naivety than Romeo and Juliet. Yes. I went there.


Yes, I've always thought the people saying Ariel was all about the boy were wrong! While there is that teenage romantic naivety, really look at why she first fell for Eric: he represented another world to her: a fascinating world to explore and discover. She wanted legs long before she spotted him. Look at her cave. Her desire to explore the human world came _first_. And then when she met Eric she learned he was actually quite nice too, albeit a bit dense. She didn't just go for a boy, she went for her dreams, her curiosity.

As for comparing it with Romeo and Juliet, well they are completely different eras. Of course Ariel will better represent the teenager of today. But Juliet was pretty awesome too. Look at how much initiative she took, how much agency she seized for herself, instead of letting her be moved from parent's house to arranged husband's house as if she were a piece of furniture that had been sold. Juliet did not have anything close to the amount of freedom teenagers today have (at least in the West). Heck, in many cases our great grandparents would have had more freedom as teenagers. She would have been almost completely cloistered before the ball. So everything she pulled off was pretty remarkable, even though it went wrong because feud and tragedy. Juliet is a feminist character imo: she sought agency when everyone was trying to deny her. (Now Romeo? Yeah he was pretty much a romantic, impulsive fool. But he would have treated Juliet well and he had a pretty face).

Oh and the other awesome thing about _Romeo and Juliet?_ - *Mercutio*. Mercutio is one of Shakespeare's best characters even though R&J was far from being one of his best plays.



> Tangled was good but my feelings on Rapunzel were mixed. She was a stock character I thought. It annoyed me.
> 
> Every feminist hearts Mulan. I was about 4 or 5 when I saw it. The movie never particularly interested me... though I did enjoy her conflict with the force to adhere to something that wasn't her and the exhaustion it provided; and her defeat. I think it was the whole roleplaying as a boy thing, but I should rewatch it again. I believe I would see it a new way and interest would be renewed.
> 
> Jasmine is typically typed ESFP. Too long since I've watched it, but she was Fi-Te if memory serves. I admire Esmerelda as well... especially after being compared to her (I type her ENFJ). It's the social justice activism isn't it?


I disagree about Rapunzel. I think she seemed on the surface to be a stock character, but she was actually quite complicated. And I found the abuse she went through relatable. Of all the Disney princesses I related to her struggles the most.

Okay so maybe the fact that I love Jasmine and Ariel have to do with their Fi-ness. XD. If only one of them had been an introvert. But I also love Esmeralda. I think ENFJs are better at accomplishing what I wish to accomplish. Turning ideals into a movement. 










This is often how I am inside. Sometimes I get it out, but I don't quite have her daring. 



> Yes Megara was the best thing in Hercules (next to Hades). I enjoy it and I don't care what anyone else says. I would say my favorite non-Disney princess is Alice. I am basically her however.


No wonder I like you then! I love Alice.  I guess I didn't count her because she isn't as much of an original Disney creation.



> See that movie bored me. Beautiful art but I could never get into it. I only cared for the fairies (I loved those cute little stock characters) and Maleficent (for your reasons cited). Too slow moving and Auora was a Snow White regurgitation. The gothic (I mostly speak of the literary genre, which the film seemed to pull from) sophistication, elegance and romance fits you well though.


She is not a Snow White regurgitation! She was much more of a dreamer. Snow White was quite practical and hardworking. Aurora goes off to the woods and dances and sings and plays pretend, barely remembering to do what she was sent out there for. And she was clever. She knew her aunts were up to something, but she played along. I feel like we got a surprising amount of characterization in the short time we get with her.



> ....Picking a classic is hard. Fav contemporary is hands down Little Mermaid but... urgh. I guess if I had to choose it would be Snow White, but Dumbo, Alice in Wonderland and Pinocchio springs to mind. Also the Aristocats... I know it's commonly criticized but great art/music and I'm a cat lover so it's right up my alley (see what I did there).
> 
> Probably Alice in Wonderland actually.


Alice? You have good taste. I can't do Dumbo, and I haven't seen Pinocchio in a long time. The Aristocats is fun!



> Forget picking a fav villain. Not going to happen.
> 
> Favorite underrated Disney movie? Great Mouse Detective! Ever seen it @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=68097" target="_blank">angelcat</a></i></span>? It's the Disney version of Sherlock Holmes. You would love it! Main character was a Ti dom... been too long to recall Se vs Ne, but I lean ISTP if memory serves. Vincent Price voiced Ratigan and considered it the most enjoyable aspect of his career. He fucking loved it and it showed.
> 
> I've never seen Treasure Planet but I should. <3 Steam Punk.


That's my infj's fav underrated Disney film. I need to rewatch it because I can't remember what happens. My pick would be _Atlantis: The Lost Empire_. Imaginative, and the characters were so diverse with distinctive personalities. Needs more love.

_Treasure Planet_ is alright.



hoopla said:


> Why I related to Ariel?
> 
> No I wasn't rebellious... but she was in my heart. The questioning. Should her daddy really be sheltering her so much? The wonder. The curiosity. The suffocation of being over relied upon, of all the expectations and duties of that of which you must be, the stifling of your independence. Wandering free, exploring another world beyond one you are completely desensitized to. I wanted to find all those marvelous treasures right along with her! The very rush of enduring sharks just to get to the bottom of something... I wanted to be there.
> 
> That film always represented freedom, independence, curiosity and questioning. Especially of authority figures whom may not always know what's best, even if they're blinded into believing so because "that's just how it is". That's why it's my favorite.
> 
> I felt like I should have related to Belle because she was designed for "girls like me"... but that's the thing. She was "designed". She wasn't human. Ariel was.


Yes Yes Yes. Yes to all of this. You have reignited my love for Ariel.



shinynotshiny said:


> ^This creep made me so angry.


Frollo gets my vote for Most Evil* Disney villain.

*and not in a cool way like Maleficent



shinynotshiny said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=78336" target="_blank">hoopla</a></i></span> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=167082" target="_blank">alittlebear</a></i></span> I wouldn't say type 5 is about preservation, at least not entirely. Knowledge is power, makes you self-sufficient and less vulnerable, but it also defines you as a person, it's about genuine curiosity, so on and so forth.
> 
> I also see the parallel between Beauty and the Beast and Twilight, although I always wondered... how old is the Beast/Prince? When was he turned? Because that would explain a few things.







The rose would bloom until his 21st year, so not that much of an age difference.

@alittlebear @hoopla

I can see Ariel as a 7w6 but she is _not_ a 6. She challenges authority because she wants freedom and she believes that one shouldn't shut themselves off from new ideas, not because she wants something worthy of believing in. She charges into danger not to prove she isn't afraid or to confront her fears; she does it because she has an insatiable curiousity for new knowledge, new experiences, new ideas. Look at her treasure trove. _Ariel is a 7._


----------



## Dangerose

It's so hard to find a gif small enough to fit in the PerC signature omg
I'm so sick of Death here but I literally can't find anything else I like that fits


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> EXACTLY. Evolution, how did this happen?!


If you trust wiki:



> Although powerful enough to paralyze smaller animals, the venom is not lethal to humans.* However, it produces excruciating pain that may be intense enough to incapacitate the victim.* Swelling rapidly develops around the entry wound and gradually spreads outward. Information obtained from case studies shows that the pain develops into a long-lasting hyperalgesia that can persist for months but usually lasts from a few days to a few weeks. *A clinical report from 1992 showed that the severe pain was persistent and did not respond to morphine.*
> 
> In 1991, Keith Payne, a former member of the Australian Army and recipient of the Victoria Cross (Australia's highest award for valour) was struck on the hand by a platypus spur, while trying to rescue the stranded animal.* He described the pain as worse than being struck by shrapnel.* One month later he was still experiencing pain in that hand. In 2006, Payne reported discomfort and stiffness when carrying out some physical activities, such as using a hammer.
> 
> There have been no reported human fatalities.


Mother Nature was having fun.

*[Edit]* Found this, need to read: Novel venom gene discovery in the platypus. 

And now I leave for a while :ball:


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Fe dom perspective.
> 
> Skip to 4:30
> 
> Timon and Pumba were such a strange plot device. Essentially created to lighten the mood of the death scene and create comedic foil. They were just kind of... there. Also someone pointed out they were a Ren and Stimpy rip off... how did I never think of that before?


Nice to know he's an Fe dom. :wink: 

But yeah, that's the entire point, he wasn't the firstborn, and wasn't taught to rule. It's what makes him kind of a tragic figure in my eyes. :happy:

Timon and Pumba, I liked them as a kid, but now... no. Please get them off the screen. :frustrating:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> I don't hate her, as she wasn't memorable in any way, because even characters you hate have to be memorable in some way. :wink: Aro and Jane are rather cool, though even Jasper was a better character than Bella, they should have had a story in the past for him, his backstory is pretty decent in its own right.
> 
> If you get the chance, and I know you don't watch anime, but I'm hoping against hope, Hellsing Ultimate is a great vampire series. :happy:


I hate milksop boy-crazy characters and Bella was one. =P

Hmm. Yes. Jasper was sweet. I also liked Alice and Carlisle. But when Michael Sheen joined the movie cast as Aro, I said, "FINALLY." He hammed that role to such magnificent heights that he is the best thing about those movies. Oh, and thank God someone at the movie studio decided to change the ending to BD, so there is an actual climax. Sure, it's all a vision, but at least there was some real death and violence going on. I knew it was fake, so I took my best friend to see it, just to see her react to all the characters being killed off. It was ... a wonderful moment. Her emotional response to Carlisle losing his head was terrific. 

I'm ... kind of mean sometimes. Hahaha. 

Eh, anime. Same friend tried to get me into it, in general. Didn't work.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Nice to know he's an Fe dom. :wink:
> 
> But yeah, that's the entire point, he wasn't the firstborn, and wasn't taught to rule. It's what makes him kind of a tragic figure in my eyes. :happy:
> 
> Timon and Pumba, I liked them as a kid, but now... no. Please get them off the screen. :frustrating:


Nice to know? Why? 

I was bored one day and youtubed their show... how on earth did I find that entertaining?

Maturity tarnishes tokens of the past. They're so annoying these days.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> If you trust wiki:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Nature was having fun.


It's a beaver that is poisonous, has a duck face and lays eggs.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I hate milksop boy-crazy characters and Bella was one. =P
> 
> Hmm. Yes. Jasper was sweet. I also liked Alice and Carlisle. But when Michael Sheen joined the movie cast as Aro, I said, "FINALLY." He hammed that role to such magnificent heights that he is the best thing about those movies. Oh, and thank God someone at the movie studio decided to change the ending to BD, so there is an actual climax. Sure, it's all a vision, but at least there was some real death and violence going on. I knew it was fake, so I took my best friend to see it, just to see her react to all the characters being killed off. It was ... a wonderful moment. Her emotional response to Carlisle losing his head was terrific.
> 
> I'm ... kind of mean sometimes. Hahaha.
> 
> Eh, anime. Same friend tried to get me into it, in general. Didn't work.


Well, when deconstructed, that trope can be really entertaining, although that's true for everything.

Yeah, I thought his ability was really neat, emotional sensing. That, and even in the movies, he's pretty cool. No character depth, but still cool. :wink: Well, I looked up Michael Sheen, and he's apparently the White Rabbit in the Alice in Wonderland movie. So there's my fact for the day. Is it bad I don't know him from anything else? :laughing: But yeah, I imagine even the movie haters got a little bit of catharsis from the pretty decent battle that went on there.

Ah, I can understand, though it's more of another form of medium, like books or film, than a genre. Still, I won't begrudge you for it. Disappointing, yes, but it can't be helped.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Nice to know? Why?
> 
> I was bored one day and youtubed their show... how on earth did I find that entertaining?
> 
> Maturity tarnishes tokens of the past. They're so annoying these days.


I've watched him before, but I never really considered his type. Although, he does have this Ti snark to him, so there that is. :wink:

Oh trust me, never rewatch shows you loved as a kid, you'll hate yourself so much. :laughing:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> I've watched him before, but I never really considered his type. Although, he does have this Ti snark to him, so there that is. :wink:
> 
> Oh trust me, never rewatch shows you loved as a kid, you'll hate yourself so much. :laughing:


Honestly....

I rewatched Rugrats at like 13 expecting it to be juvenile...

unless we count the newer seasons where the animation is clearer and a bunch of pointless characters are added, it stills holds up. At 21, I could watch it and not find myself bored. They added a lot of adult perspectives to keep the show engaging. That was a fantastic show. I'd argue one of the greatest children television programs of all time.

It's Doug that I no longer liked. ...Why.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Honestly....
> 
> I rewatched Rugrats at like 13 expecting it to be juvenile...
> 
> unless we count the newer seasons where the animation is clearer and a bunch of pointless characters are added, it stills holds up. At 21, I could watch it and not find myself bored. They added a lot of adult perspectives to keep the show engaging. That was a fantastic show. I'd argue one of the greatest children television programs of all time.
> 
> It's Doug that I no longer liked. ...Why.


That's the lone exception, it seems. :wink: That's awesome, though.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, I thought his ability was really neat, emotional sensing. That, and even in the movies, he's pretty cool. No character depth, but still cool. :wink: Well, I looked up Michael Sheen, and he's apparently the White Rabbit in the Alice in Wonderland movie. So there's my fact for the day. Is it bad I don't know him from anything else? :laughing: But yeah, I imagine even the movie haters got a little bit of catharsis from the pretty decent battle that went on there.


His powers are awesome, as is his back story, which isn't in the books. He killed his own sister to keep Marcus in the Volturi. I'd pay good money to watch that story unfold. 

Michael Sheen. I've seen a great deal of him (habitual BBC watcher) but he's most memorable for his stints as Tony Blair (in several movies, including "The Queen" with Helen Mirren) and as Lucian, the head of the werewolves in "Underworld," which is an awesome vampire franchise.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> That's the lone exception, it seems. :wink: That's awesome, though.


Considering it's a show about babies and their fears and adventures...

honestly I still watch some nickelodeon and cartoon network cartoons from time to time. Some were horrible yeah but... this is fucking awesome:






That is one of the very few cartoons I can say I actually enjoy *even more* than I did as a child (Hey Arnold is another).


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> His powers are awesome, as is his back story, which isn't in the books. He killed his own sister to keep Marcus in the Volturi. I'd pay good money to watch that story unfold.
> 
> Michael Sheen. I've seen a great deal of him (habitual BBC watcher) but he's most memorable for his stints as Tony Blair (in several movies, including "The Queen" with Helen Mirren) and as Lucian, the head of the werewolves in "Underworld," which is an awesome vampire franchise.


Oh, that's certainly interesting, and it would make for a better story than the crap we got, so I agree with you there. :laughing:

The only thing BBC I watch is Sherlock and Doctor Who, and sometimes scenes of Blackadder and Fawlty Towers, their comedies are brilliant. :kitteh: I've seen a bit of Underworld, although it keeps on getting worse and worse each movie they make, really. :dry:


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Considering it's a show about babies and their fears and adventures...
> 
> honestly I still watch some nickelodeon and cartoon network cartoons from time to time. Some were horrible yeah but... this is fucking awesome:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is one of the very few cartoons I can say I actually enjoy *even more* than I did as a child (Hey Arnold is another).


Cartoon Network isn't a bad broadcaster, at least it's not 4Kids, which censors *everything*. Yes I'm still bitter. :dry:


----------



## Vermillion

Greyhart said:


> Her impressions _to me_ were Ne-Si/Si-Ne. I could understand and feel that.
> 
> All SPs and NJs come up with ~weird~ analogies that seem to not have an origin. The only way I could do that is by taking the whole concept (like your knight) and cutting it to some piece (like "radiant armor") but for me it wouldn't be natural, a waste of a perfectly fine idea that had a potention for expansion.
> 
> Not entirely sure that wasting time is anti-SJ. I procrastinate far more than my ESFJ mother. She's very active and constantly looks for ideas for her craft.


SP analogies are realistically traceable because of Se unless they're attempting to use Ni and failing, in which case you'd know because the analogy itself would probably fall apart. (Unless their Ni is well developed and they're more mature, in which case it's harder to type them) 

Creating "weird" stuff which has no traceable origin is more Ne. Ne is the function that bypasses objective reality and instead focuses on the potential energy of objects and people, which means the connections it makes are based on connecting the potential of two objects together, and not their reality. The fact that Oswin doesn't make wacky, far-off connections is way more indicative of her lacking lower-order Ne. Lower Ne's analogies are more senseless and incoherent than those of people with higher Ne. 

Wasting time isn't the the focus, please read what I wrote. It's how she describes time as a river along which you get swept. That sort of reverence towards the power of time points to Ni in the ego. Ni is aptly referred to as the "intuition of time".

Moreover, you haven't responded to her very stark discomfort with thinking about and discussing physical impressions. She feels uncomfortable talking about her relation to things such as dirt and temperature, etc. That sort of sensitivity and disdain for physical impressions points to Si as a devalued function -- more specifically as her vulnerable function.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@Curiphant I found a thread that may help to get a better idea of how Ni works, specially in Ni doms : http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/577449-introverted-intuitive-reality.html there's also a post that links to Jung's Si description, so I guess that this can clear your doubts.


----------



## Max

@hoopla - You're a mad scientist's assistant. You're crazy in a good way. You secretly want to take over the lab, but have fun conducting experiments. XP 

Yeah. Remember the time Bender turned into a human and got fat? Das me ;D 

On a side note for everyone: I feel so sick today, but I'll be on a lot probably, so yeah, you can message me, tag me or mention me in anything you need 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> @_Barakiel_ I found the post :cheers2:
> 
> @_hoopla_ Oh, I noticed about the popping in...


INTJ. I-N-T-J. Especially if one takes socionics definition of si into account. There doesn't seem to be much connection with your body or physical surroundings. Nor do I see evidence of Ne that I would expect even if it was inferior. Meanwhile you have an awareness of time, a layering of meaning, unusual imagery (the plum). You use Ni. INTJ. Accept it.  

(P.S.: You had some really beautiful thoughtful answers, thank you for sharing) 

@angelcat @Barakiel @hoopla Bella makes me not want to be an Fi-user. The whole Twilight thing depresses me.



Barakiel said:


> I've watched him before, but I never really considered his type. Although, he does have this Ti snark to him, so there that is. :wink:
> 
> Oh trust me, never rewatch shows you loved as a kid, you'll hate yourself so much. :laughing:


Maybe you just watched the wrong shows as a kid. Or you are still at that age where you instinctively reject it. I've rewatched several of mine as an adult and in some cases I actually love the show more. _Animaniacs_ is so much more brilliant than I even recognized as a child. Now that I get all the references I'm just blown away. _Justice League_ and _Justice League: Unlimited_ and _Batman: The Animated Series_ are also still great. I still love _Gargoyles_, _The Powerpuff Girls_, _Rugrats_ (good call @hoopla), _Hey Arnold_, _Doug_, _Clarissa Explains it All_, and _Pete and Pete_. Yes some shows don't hold up, but the great ones do.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @angelcat @Barakiel @hoopla Bella makes me not want to be an Fi-user. The whole Twilight thing depresses me.


You want a good Fi user? The main character from Mirai Nikki, Yukiteru Amano. At the end of the series, he's a brilliant representation of Fi-Te, and I love him for it. No, I'm not taking the easy way out by cutting out the problem through murder, I *am* saving the person I care for. :laughing: Twilight is definitely shit, though, no complaints there.



fair phantom said:


> Maybe you just watched the wrong shows as a kid. Or you are still at that age where you instinctively reject it. I've rewatched several of mine as an adult and in some cases I actually love the show more. _Animaniacs_ is so much more brilliant than I even recognized as a child. Now that I get all the references I'm just blown away. _Justice League_ and _Justice League: Unlimited_ and _Batman: The Animated Series_ are also still great. I still love _Gargoyles_, _The Powerpuff Girls_, _Rugrats_ (good call @hoopla), _Hey Arnold_, _Doug_, _Clarissa Explains it All_, and _Pete and Pete_. Yes some shows don't hold up, but the great ones do.


Yeah, I'm probably in that stage that you mentioned, although I do remember absolutely adoring the DC shows I watched, _Batman: The Animated Series_, _Justice League_, hell, _The Dark Knight Returns_ is amazing. :wink: I should really watch _Young Justice_, though, I hear that's good, with one of my favorite VAs.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Oh, that's certainly interesting, and it would make for a better story than the crap we got, so I agree with you there. :laughing:
> 
> The only thing BBC I watch is Sherlock and Doctor Who, and sometimes scenes of Blackadder and Fawlty Towers, their comedies are brilliant. :kitteh: I've seen a bit of Underworld, although it keeps on getting worse and worse each movie they make, really. :dry:


I'm a big costume drama fanatic, so ... whenever anything with frills and petticoats comes out in the BBC, I'm all over it. 

Underworld may be lame, but Selene is awesome, so I keep watching. I was bummed about Lucian and Viktor, and how they died, though. They really deserved to die killing each other, with their history.



fair phantom said:


> @angelcat @Barakiel @hoopla Bella makes me not want to be an Fi-user. The whole Twilight thing depresses me.


I hear you there. Some ISFJ characters make me want to abdicate.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I'm a big costume drama fanatic, so ... whenever anything with frills and petticoats comes out in the BBC, I'm all over it.
> 
> Underworld may be lame, but Selene is awesome, so I keep watching. I was bummed about Lucian and Viktor, and how they died, though. They really deserved to die killing each other, with their history.


I'm more of a character and action person, myself, I can listen to people talking philosophy for ages, as long as the characters are compelling and have good voices. :wink:

Ah, so they dropped the bridge on them? :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, because getting other vampires involved in your struggle and not wanting your human father to go to your wedding, even though he's probably the most human (pun intended) character in the story, because it'll cause you pain, is _selfless_. Bella was never selfless, not even in Breaking Dawn.


I liked her Dad. I wanted him to be in a better series.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I liked her Dad. I wanted him to be in a better series.


Best actor in the first movie, soon superceeded by the Volturi. :dry:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, because getting other vampires involved in your struggle and not wanting your human father to go to your wedding, even though he's probably the most human (pun intended) character in the story, because it'll cause you pain, is _selfless_. Bella was never selfless, not even in Breaking Dawn.


THIS. At the end, it was still all about Bella, and what she wanted, and to hell with everyone else.


----------



## Greyhart

Blond vampire dad is the best. Reason I watched Twilight. :hearts:

unrelated but interesting


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> THIS. At the end, it was still all about Bella, and what she wanted, and to hell with everyone else.


Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I liked her Dad. I wanted him to be in a better series.


I actually dislike how the dad was acted out! I saw him differently in my head, and he seemed really creepy in the movie.


----------



## orbit

@Amaterasu, how did you know you were Se dom? Or ESFP and not ISFP because as you said, you weren't as energetic as ESFPs are potrayed as?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, because getting other vampires involved in your struggle and not wanting your human father to go to your wedding, even though he's probably the most human (pun intended) character in the story, because it'll cause you pain, is _selfless_. Bella was never selfless, not even in Breaking Dawn.


Im not referring to that. I'm referring to the way she defended her child. Abortion debates aside, her love for her daughter even at the cost of her own life was beautiful, I thought, and very admirable. I did not see how this played out in the movie (didn't watch Part 1...), but in the book I found it very commendable.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I actually dislike how the dad was acted out! I saw him differently in my head, and he seemed really creepy in the movie.


I didn't read the books so I didn't have that problem. :victorious:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Im not referring to that. I'm referring to the way she defended her child. Abortion debates aside, her love for her daughter even at the cost of her own life was beautiful, I thought, and very admirable. I did not see how this played out in the movie (didn't watch Part 1...), but in the book I found it very commendable.


Many mothers have that, she's not winning any prizes for simply having something that's rather common. :dry: If I recall correctly, Cersei had that trait too, and I absolutely despise her. :laughing:


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Many mothers have that, she's not winning any prizes for simply having something that's rather common. :dry: If I recall correctly, Cersei had that trait too, and I absolutely despise her. :laughing:


What other people do or don't do doesn't affect whether you have a positive, commendable trait, even if it's common. I don't think we should take positive traits for granted.


----------



## fair phantom

The most I liked Bella was when she went off on Jacob for imprinting on her daughter (seriously wth).


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> The most I liked Bella was when she went off on Jacob for imprinting on her daughter (seriously wth).


That was so gross. They're both immortal but ehhhh

I hope Resnesmee can't have kids because if there are any more hybrids...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Many mothers have that, she's not winning any prizes for simply having something that's rather common. :dry: If I recall correctly, Cersei had that trait too, and I absolutely despise her. :laughing:


Well, I love Cersei, so that point doesn't work on me. 

But I mean, when she was dying from carrying Renesmee. They wanted her to get rid of the child, save herself. But she brought the child into the world anyway, even knowing how she was killing her. And... doing that brought a wonder into the world, a darling gift that brought joy to even the family's worst enemies, the most heartless conscious figures in that world. 

I actually hate Renesmee. If you want to know what a bratty child looks like, look at her. I used to scoff at my Twilight-loving friend's fascination with her. "She's so perfect!!" No, she seems that way, but really she's a little selfish brat in the body of a... well, who knows how old she is now. (Sixteen, I guess.) But regardless, it is true that within the stretches of the story, Renesmee is a delight to everyone and a gift to that world.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> What other people do or don't do doesn't affect whether you have a positive, commendable trait, even if it's common. I don't think we should take positive traits for granted.


Are we really going to congratulate her for caring for her child? Sure, we shouldn't take positive traits for granted, but neither should we be so starved of good traits as to say, yeah, this is the one trait that I like about her, a trait which many other people have in excess without being a selfish, dependent child.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> The most I liked Bella was when she went off on Jacob for imprinting on her daughter (seriously wth).


A girl told me that happened while I was reading _Eclipse_. I was honestly in disbelief 

That aside, I actually do not have a problem with imprinting. I think that Meyers incorporated some ideas of agape love, platonic love, and I commend her for that. It's an awkward concept, but I still think it isn't as gross as it immediately seems.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Well, I love Cersei, so that point doesn't work on me.
> 
> But I mean, when she was dying from carrying Renesmee. They wanted her to get rid of the child, save herself. But she brought the child into the world anyway, even knowing how she was killing her. And... doing that brought a wonder into the world, a darling gift that brought joy to even the family's worst enemies, the most heartless conscious figures in that world.
> 
> I actually hate Renesmee. If you want to know what a bratty child looks like, look at her. I used to scoff at my Twilight-loving friend's fascination with her. "She's so perfect!!" No, she seems that way, but really she's a little selfish brat in the body of a... well, who knows how old she is now. (Sixteen, I guess.) But regardless, it is true that within the stretches of the story, Renesmee is a delight to everyone and a gift to that world.


Yeah, and it confuses me to this very day. :dry:

... Maybe it's just me, but I don't seem to get the whole _bringing life into the world_ thing, although maybe that's cause I'm a cynical asshole. :laughing: But if you're so starved for good traits as to say that giving birth is the best thing they've contributed to the world, that's not a good character. :frustrating:


----------



## 68097

The actor who plays Charlie is a mas serial rapist/murderer in "The Closer/Major Crimes" so ... yeah, he's creepy. He's also creepy in "Red Riding Hood." He's just... creepy. But I love the scene where he tells Bella to bring Edward in, and then snaps his rifle shut. Hahahahaha.

Meyers wrote a lot of Mormon symbolism into her books, right down to the Imprinting stuff. 

I'm adamantly pro-life in real life, but midway through BD when that vampire baby was ripping Bella apart from the inside out, I was with Carlisle and Edward and Jacob -- get rid of the damn thing. And then she came out and was PURRFECT and ... ugh, the entire thing was too sappy/happy ending for me. There was no sacrifice. No deeper meaning. Just Bella, getting everything she wanted, being able to "keep" Jacob while having Edward too.

You know, up until that last book, I was fine with the franchise. I had my quibbles with its anti-feminism, but that last book was like ... pure hell. I sat there reading it in total disbelief that instead of something epic and fantastic, I was spending 300 pages reading about the demon spawn child that Edward had to cut out of Bella with his fangs (eww, when did this franchise become a B-grade horror movie?), and then another several hundred pages of ... endless nothingness, with a climax that flopped, and Bella magically had all her problems disappear. 

I get escapism, but ... in comparison to the epic, tragic, heart-wrenching, enormously symbolic and personal sacrifices in the HP finale? Twilight is crap.


----------



## fair phantom

question with the imprinting: what does Jacob do if Renesmee grows up and is not into him?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, and it confuses me to this very day. :dry:
> 
> ... Maybe it's just me, but I don't seem to get the whole _bringing life into the world_ thing, although maybe that's cause I'm a cynical asshole. :laughing: But if you're so starved for good traits as to say that giving birth is the best thing they've contributed to the world, that's not a good character. :frustrating:


If you don't understand the magic of life, that's a philosophical outlook that I don't think I would make much progress in trying to help you understand. 

But... No. That's not what I am saying. It was not that she brought a child into the world that made her good. That's obviously a very misogynistic thought (on part of the thought you were attributing to me). No. Bella has commendable qualities besides that. It was her altruism that I loved. Her altruism, her willingness to give herself for another even while everyone else was telling her to give up and save herself. As someone who values altruism above all else, that meant more than enough to me.

The whole series, I was annoyed. We were told that Bella was giving. "I'm the type of person who cares for others." "I am kind." "I give too much of myself." But you never saw it. She hurt others with her carelessness. Her emotions, her desires, they always came first. She was not very empathetic, not very understanding of anyone really. But in _Breaking Dawn_, I saw that change. She gave of herself entirely, truly fitting that description she gave herself all along. I think that is wonderful, and while there is more to Bella than altruism (and those qualities were enhanced after her transformation as well), the fact that she did possess altruism and that blossomed meant so much to me.


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Are we really going to congratulate her for caring for her child? Sure, we shouldn't take positive traits for granted, but neither should we be so starved of good traits as to say, yeah, this is the one trait that I like about her, a trait which many other people have in excess without being a selfish, dependent child.


Um yeah, I'm going to congratulate her. 

I don't think appreciating my mom for taking care of me and spending nine months carrying me around in her goddang guy is making me starved for good traits?

I'm not throwing her a party and is neither is Bear but there's nothing wrong with truly appreciating someone's good traits, even if they are common? I don't appreciating goodness makes me starved? I think we've all seen bad mothers, so caring for your child is... a gift. Being a good, caring mother is hard. So congratulations to Bella for caring.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> question with the imprinting: what does Jacob do if Renesmee grows up and is not into him?


I think part of it is that when you imprint, they are into you? I always assumed that I think. 

At that point I think he would remain his guardian, as she is now. 

I know a lot of people want a series after, following Nessie and her decisions. Will she choose the South American vampire human who is like her (and imo who sounded pretty attractive no?), or will she choose Jacob? I don't know how interesting another episode of Twilight would be, but it's definitely an issue that has haunted fans.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> question with the imprinting: what does Jacob do if Renesmee grows up and is not into him?


I hope this happens. I think Jacob acts as whatever Renesmee wants him to


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> question with the imprinting: what does Jacob do if Renesmee grows up and is not into him?


He continues to love and serve her, regardless, as whatever she needs him to be. Friend. Protector. Guardian.


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> He continues to love and serve her, regardless, as whatever she needs him to be. Friend. Protector. Guardian.


Slavvveee


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> He continues to love and serve her, regardless, as whatever she needs him to be. Friend. Protector. Guardian.



But can he grow to love someone else, or would that keep him from his duty to her?

Only read the first book. Could not continue.


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> He continues to love and serve her, regardless, as whatever she needs him to be. Friend. Protector. Guardian.


But what if she doesn't want that?


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I think part of it is that when you imprint, they are into you? I always assumed that I think.


So wait once he imprinted _on a baby_ she had no choice but to be into him? That is...horrifying. A complete denial of agency.

Or are you saying it was Jacob reciprocating? But...she was _a baby_.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> If you don't understand the magic of life, that's a philosophical outlook that I don't think I would make much progress in trying to help you understand.
> 
> But... No. That's not what I am saying. It was not that she brought a child into the world that made her good. That's obviously a very misogynistic thought (on part of the thought you were attributing to me). No. Bella has commendable qualities besides that. It was her altruism that I loved. Her altruism, her willingness to give herself for another even while everyone else was telling her to give up and save herself. As someone who values altruism above all else, that meant more than enough to me.
> 
> The whole series, I was annoyed. We were told that Bella was giving. "I'm the type of person who cares for others." "I am kind." "I give too much of myself." But you never saw it. She hurt others with her carelessness. Her emotions, her desires, they always came first. She was not very empathetic, not very understanding of anyone really. But in _Breaking Dawn_, I saw that change. She gave of herself entirely, truly fitting that description she gave herself all along. I think that is wonderful, and while there is more to Bella than altruism (and those qualities were enhanced after her transformation as well), the fact that she did possess altruism and that blossomed meant so much to me.


Thousands of people get born, and thousands die, it's really nothing to get excited over once you've born witness to it a few times.

I can see why that would appeal to you as someone who values altruism, but as someone who has seen someone implode from the inside with valuing altruism too much, I can't agree. To me, Bella's a selfish, immature, naive child who just so happened to not abort a child inside of her, and birth it even though it was causing her pain. Welcome to motherhood indeed. :dry:

Whereas you were annoyed at her building herself up, I saw her for what she was, selfish, vain, and immature. So when you say that her doing that is altruism, I just consider it a matter of course, nothing special.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> But what if she doesn't want that?


Then I think he would respect her wishes. Again, I think imprinting is a form of agape love. He would give of himself to meet her needs however he had to, even if that meant doing something that pained him like leaving her alone. 

I also think he would be able to move on and have a family. That would be an interesting thing to see. Jacob moving on, still feeling this connection to Renesmee but growing past it. The only thing is, I would hate for him to have to endure that. The series already brought him so much agony. He does need some happiness, and it would stink for the inevitability of life to take that from him, to take Renesmee from him who the series represented as a way out.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> So wait once he imprinted _on a baby_ she had no choice but to be into him? That is...horrifying. A complete denial of agency.
> 
> Or are you saying it was Jacob reciprocating? But...she was _a baby_.


Oh, no... Not that she would have no choice. Just that naturally one would not imprint on someone who would not reciprocate, that they would be hardwired to imprint on someone who would love in return. It would imply some sort of supernatural destiny, a hand of fate, but I do not think that assumption is contrary to the limits of the Twilight world.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Then I think he would respect her wishes. Again, I think imprinting is a form of agape love. He would give of himself to meet her needs however he had to, even if that meant doing something that pained him like leaving her alone.
> 
> I also think he would be able to move on and have a family. That would be an interesting thing to see. Jacob moving on, still feeling this connection to Renesmee but growing past it. The only thing is, I would hate for him to have to endure that. The series already brought him so much agony. He does need some happiness, and it would stink for the inevitability of life to take that from him, to take Renesmee from him who the series represented as a way out.


See that is still horrifying to me. I know I don't get any satisfaction from rejecting people. When guy friends developed a thing for me I hated it. I hated it so much. Because I know I have to either pretend or hurt them and the former won't keep up forever. And to have that kind of pressure on you for your whole life? To feel like a complete ungrateful jerk just for having free will? No just no.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> See that is still horrifying to me. I know I don't get any satisfaction from rejecting people. When guy friends developed a thing for me I hated it. I hated it so much. Because I know I have to either pretend or hurt them and the former won't keep up forever. And to have that kind of pressure on you for your whole life? To feel like a complete ungrateful jerk just for having free will? No just no.


Oh no... That might be what I'm accidentally saying, but that's what I think I'm saying. But I'm saying different things so let me try to get down to the veins. 

1. I would first think she would accept him immediately when she grows up. I think that fate exists in the Twilight universe, and I would imagine that one would not imprint on someone who they would not be romantically compatible with. That's the sort of sad world stuff that I don't think Stephanie Meyer would want in her supernatural creation. 

2. Assuming that Renessmee did happen to like another person, I think that Jacob would accept that. Because he would truly love her, and he would not have the selfish desire to push himself on her in spite of her wishes as he did with Bella... because his love for Nessie is pure, not tainted. 

Given that she is a selfish character, I do think, sadly, she would want him to stay away from her. If she didn't want him, she would pitch a fit until he left. That's not what I would want - trust me, rejecting someone hurts me - but I imagine that Renesmee would act that way, unfortunately, given the characteristics she has already shown from herself. 

3. If there was another series Meyers would probably mess it up for dramatic reasons. I think she is capable of very beautiful writing - such as _The Host_, which is a masterpiece, most commendable, and cleans up so many of the tropes used in Twilight, it's perfect imo - but given that Twilight is a Gossip Girl type fun story, I think she would use the imprinting for fun plot crap instead of keeping to what I think is/was the original intention of it.


----------



## Greyhart

*comes back to srs bsnss Twilight discussion* I've read fanfics with much more gore, porn, death, bdsm, dubious morality, mind control, vore, I should stop now... I'm cutting Twilight a slack with those.

About kid and werewolf, I'm assuming he'll stay around as a lover or a creepy uncle regardless of her choices.


----------



## Vermillion

Curiphant said:


> @_Amaterasu_, how did you know you were Se dom? Or ESFP and not ISFP because as you said, you weren't as energetic as ESFPs are potrayed as?


Because cognitive extroversion is NOT the same as the colloquial meaning of extroversion. The common understanding of extroversion has to do with where you get your energy from. Cognitive extroversion implies a focus on objectivity, as compared to cognitive introversion which focuses on the subjective relations of the self to the object. I identify as an irrational (perceiving) type. I feel fairly competent in Te. My Fi is subject to the whims of my Se. I hence view the world as a place to derive the maximally fulfilling experience out of, but what I'm attracted to and repelled by (Fi) comes only after that desire.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Amaterasu said:


> Because cognitive extroversion is NOT the same as the colloquial meaning of extroversion. The common understanding of extroversion has to do with where you get your energy from. Cognitive extroversion implies a focus on objectivity, as compared to cognitive introversion which focuses on the subjective relations of the self to the object. I identify as an irrational (perceiving) type. I feel fairly competent in Te. My Fi is subject to the whims of my Se. I hence view the world as a place to derive the maximally fulfilling experience out of, but what I'm attracted to and repelled by (Fi) comes only after that desire.


This comment was not in response to me but thank you for it nonetheless. This is also why I think I am a cognitive extrovert but not a classic extrovert. (I'm actually a classic introvert - always in my head, needing alone time, drained by prolonged interaction - but my main focus is people, even when I am alone I am focusing somehow on people, and my life will not be fulfilled unless I help people in the real world, soothe people. It's an important distinction but not one I think many people understand, unfortunately.


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear

Hmm I see. Well I'm not a fan of fate.

I think I understand it now, but I still think it is messed up, at least if the two parties involved aren't adults. If they were adults I can see it being like commitment, still a choice. 

I mean you compare it to agape, and I can see why, since it is evidently selfless. However there is an intimacy to it that unsettles me.

I suppose the thing is that free will is an important concept to me. I don't think love really exists without it. :/


----------



## Greyhart

"Get your energy from" is not a bad way to explain it _for me_. I sponge in outside sources and get mentally pumped out by them. The more I get the more pumped out I am. Which is my going to bed is hard because I am pumped out by everything I sponged in during the day.

My problem is


> Objectivity is a central philosophical concept, related to reality and truth, which has been variously defined by sources. Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even *outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations,* feelings, and *imaginings.*


That just isn't working to describe Ne for me. Do you guys would apply objectivity to Ne dominant? Or use this term as "focused on objects" rather than what you think/feel about them? This presents a problem too since I would say Ne doesn't give a damn about actual "object" but rather Ne's mutation of it.


----------



## Vermillion

Greyhart said:


> "Get your energy from" is not a bad way to explain it _for me_. I sponge in outside sources and get mentally pumped out by them. The more I get the more pumped out I am. Which is my going to bed is hard because I am pumped out by everything I sponged in during the day.
> 
> My problem is
> 
> That just isn't working to describe Ne for me. Do you guys would apply objectivity to Ne dominant? Or use this term as "focused on objects" rather than what you think/feel about them? This presents a problem too since I would say Ne doesn't give a damn about actual "object" but rather Ne's mutation of it.


The word "object" has different definitions based on which extroverted function uses it. For Se it means the expanse of real-world situations and opportunities and experiences. For Ne it means the expanse of potential that every situation/idea holds. For Fe it means the emotional atmosphere and values. In the colloquial definition of "objective" and "subjective", one would say "all feelings are subjective so Fe is subjective". However, in typology, Fe treats these values and changes in atmosphere as objects to be manipulated to reach the goal of harmony. It does not focus on the self's connection to these objects.

In contrast to Ni, Ne does not focus on the self's perception of underlying, unified symbolism that shows the flow of the world through time. Ne doms view each object (ideas, concepts, situations) as having disparate differences in potential energy and then use their judging function (Fi/Ti) to determine which potential is more worth pursuing.


----------



## orbit

Amaterasu said:


> Because cognitive extroversion is NOT the same as the colloquial meaning of extroversion. The common understanding of extroversion has to do with where you get your energy from. Cognitive extroversion implies a focus on objectivity, as compared to cognitive introversion which focuses on the subjective relations of the self to the object. I identify as an irrational (perceiving) type. I feel fairly competent in Te. My Fi is subject to the whims of my Se. I hence view the world as a place to derive the maximally fulfilling experience out of, but what I'm attracted to and repelled by (Fi) comes only after that desire.


How do you feel competent in your Te? Sorry for asking but I don't know if I'm Se-dom or Fi-dom yet. Hm. 

Thank you


----------



## Greyhart

Amaterasu said:


> The word "object" has different definitions based on which extroverted function uses it. For Se it means the expanse of real-world situations and opportunities and experiences. For Ne it means the expanse of potential that every situation/idea holds. For Fe it means the emotional atmosphere and values. In the colloquial definition of "objective" and "subjective", one would say "all feelings are subjective so Fe is subjective". However, in typology, Fe treats these values and changes in atmosphere as objects to be manipulated to reach the goal of harmony. It does not focus on the self's connection to these objects.
> 
> In contrast to Ni, Ne does not focus on the self's perception of underlying, unified symbolism that shows the flow of the world through time. Ne doms view each object (ideas, concepts, situations) as having disparate differences in potential energy and then use their judging function (Fi/Ti) to determine which potential is more worth pursuing.


I can accept that, yes. Still in my mind (perhaps because of my first language) word "objectivity" means "reality free of any personal bias". Which from my personal point is impossible for a human *cough*. When reading this I imagined "object" for all of extroverted dominants as a Rubik's cube that they hold and manipulate - it's in their grasp but it isn't "inside". Although now I imagined ways it could get inside and I should stop here.


----------



## Vermillion

Curiphant said:


> How do you feel competent in your Te? Sorry for asking but I don't know if I'm Se-dom or Fi-dom yet. Hm.
> 
> Thank you


You have to get more specific with that question, there's a lot of room for subjectivity, especially if you're planning on finding out if you're Se dom or Fi dom based on the response.


----------



## Greyhart

Going by that metaphor introverts create an image of personal interpretation of Rubik's cube and manipulate it in their minds before approaching (if they approach at all).


----------



## 68097

Re: Twilight.

Imprinting only works one way, so no, she has no obligation to love him. Fortunately, Nessie adores Jacob, so there won't be a problem. Convenient, isn't it?


----------



## owlet

Amaterasu said:


> She just said she didn't think Oswin was "broad and detailed" as Ne users, and that distinction is important to make. The closer you are to someone's functional stacking, the more you're able to "fill in the blanks" and understand more details from less
> 
> But honestly, if I had to recommend a way of typing people, I would not recommend typing people by comparing them to others anyway. There's way too much subjectivity involved, and other factors such as Enneagram, social values, upbringing, etc come into play. Two people of the same type can look rather different from each other. What matters is that they individually fit into the functional stacking in their own way.
> 
> For example, not a single soul would think I'm an ESFP if they compared me to an ESFP type 7 or 3, because I'm far less enthusiastic and energetic. Those people would relate to the "energy" part of the ESFP description more, but as an sx 6w5, I relate more to the parts about strength, powers of observation and keenness. But do I fit into the functional stacking of ESFP? Yes.
> @_laurie17_, in the light of your recent post


I understand that, although I do find I get a very certain vibe from particular functions. I definitely got Se from you and I maintained that @alittlebear was using Ni even when she had switched to xSFJ. It's not the most accurate way, but it can help as a very open-ended starting point.
(I mean, I know two ESFPs, one of whom is a 7w8 and the other is 9w8 so I'm very aware of the different vibes they can give off.)



Greyhart said:


> As for Oswin's interpretations they just seemed more earthy/touchy/like I could actually imagine interacting with them. So I thought it could be touching my Si.
> 
> Also @_laurie17_ didn't write an essay about her interpretations either.
> 
> Hah, OK I admit, it's an unreliable way to check for functions. :tongue:


Haha I've actually started a small topic on trying to work out perceiving functions (now straying into judging), if anyone's interested (especially in providing critical feedback :ghost.

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/579074-perceiving-function-descriptions.html


----------



## Vermillion

laurie17 said:


> I understand that, although I do find I get a very certain vibe from particular functions. I definitely got Se from you and I maintained that @_alittlebear_ was using Ni even when she had switched to xSFJ. It's not the most accurate way, but it can help as a very open-ended starting point.
> (I mean, I know two ESFPs, one of whom is a 7w8 and the other is 9w8 so I'm very aware of the different vibes they can give off.)


That's fine. However, vibes are ultimately rather subjective too. The vibe I get from you may not be the same that someone else picks up from you. Which is why when it comes to the final verdict, we need to stick to what fits the theory and its definitions.


----------



## Immolate

Came across this and had a chuckle.






Reminds me of a conversation I had with someone:

*Me: *[blah blah fact]
*Person: *I don't believe in facts. I believe in truth.
*Me:* ...
*Me:* How do you define "fact" and "truth"?

???

P.S. @laurie17 do you still get the same vibe from me? :typingneko:


----------



## owlet

Amaterasu said:


> That's fine. However, vibes are ultimately rather subjective too. The vibe I get from you may not be the same that someone else picks up from you. Which is why when it comes to the final verdict, we need to stick to what fits the theory and its definitions.


Oh, of course it's always best to have a mixture of contextual knowledge of a person, coupled with a broad knowledge of a variety of theories (enneagram helps me to an extent, but is not definitive by any means) as well as a good in-depth knowledge of angles of the theory.


shinynotshiny said:


> P.S. @_laurie17_ do you still get the same vibe from me? :typingneko:


I'm pretty sure you're an ENTJ still, yes :ghost: You're not the stereotype of commanding officer though (obviously).


----------



## orbit

Amaterasu said:


> You have to get more specific with that question, there's a lot of room for subjectivity, especially if you're planning on finding out if you're Se dom or Fi dom based on the response.


Ah I'll change my question then. What kind of "experience" do you seek? If that's too personal of a question, you don't have to answer.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Came across this and had a chuckle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reminds me of a conversation I had with someone:
> 
> *Me: *[blah blah fact]
> *Person: *I don't believe in facts. I believe in truth.
> *Me:* ...
> *Me:* How do you define "fact" and "truth"?
> 
> ???
> 
> P.S. @laurie17 do you still get the same vibe from me? :typingneko:


I think if you stabbed me, I wouldn't bleed out. I believe in the truth. I do not have blood but spitually exist on another level that I don't know where I'm going with this. 

Truth=facts

--
@laurie17 what is my vibeee?


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, to be fair, I've seen a lot more broken characters than him, and citing something as the best story Disney has ever made and the good old days doesn't make me want to watch it any more. Hype backlash is a real thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what happened with me and _Frozen_. Tangled is waay better imo.
> 
> For some reason I can't listen to the regular "Let it Go" anymore. I just can't. But this multi-language version? I could listen to it all day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting about you throwing _The Little Mermaid_ being in there. I usually hear either _Beauty and the Beast_ or _The Lion King_ being cited as the best, though _The Little Mermaid_ was the start of The Disney Renaissance.
> 
> Personally I think The Lion King is overrated. I mean the parts that are good are brilliant (the opening, the iconic Mufasa in the Clouds scene), but I can't deal with Timon and Pumba. Mostly Pumba. I'm sorry but "fart jokes" annoy me. I think it is among the lowest forms of humour.
> 
> I wonder how generational differences affect Disney favourites. I have to think that actually seeing the films on the big screen affects their magic.
> 
> Fav Disney songs everyone?
> 
> *My top 10* (only roughly in order, because that changes)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colors of the Wind (_Pocahontas_)
> A Whole New World (_Aladdin_)
> Part of Your World (_The Little Mermaid_)
> Won't Say I'm in Love (_Hercules_)
> God Help The Outcasts (_The Hunchback of Notre Dame_)
> Once Upon a Dream (_Sleeping Beauty_)
> Belle (_Beauty and the Beast_)
> Reflection (_Mulan_)
> I'll Make a Man Out of You (_Mulan_)
> When Will My Life Begin (_Tangled_)
> 
> 
> I've Probably forgotten something.
> 
> ETA: ARGH I knew it!
> 
> "I'll Make a Man Out of You" and "Reflection" are both fantastic. But I don't know what to take off. Maybe I should make a separate list for Villain songs and take "Poor Unfortunate Souls" and "Be Prepared" Off Yes. A moment Please.
> 
> T*op 5 Disney Villain Songs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Poor Unfortunate Souls" from _The Little Mermaid_
> "Be Prepared" from _The Lion King_
> "Gaston" from _Beauty and the Beast_ (the most fun to sing)
> "Hellfire" from _The Hunchback of Notre Dame_(The most truly unsettling)
> "Friends on the Other Side" from _The Princess and the Frog_ (I love hearing the voice of _Gargoyles_' Goliath as a villain)
Click to expand...

hah! This is great!


----------



## Persephone Soul

tine said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> *gasp* what in the world?
> 
> B&tB was a beautiful story. I am in love with the beast. He was so.. broken. She rebelled against him, and I didn't see her as looking to fix him... she just organically did. Without trying. She is what his soul needed.
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoyed B&tB a lot too, it was very well done I thought (also, Gaston was a stunningly terrible villain!)
> 
> Songs from disney films I enjoyed:
> 
> The Word's Greatest Criminal Mind - Basil the Great Mouse Detective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Lion King songs (but especially Be Prepared).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exile/Not One of Us - Lion King 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colours of the Wind - Pocahontas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll Make a Man Out of You - Mulan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of The Nightmare Before Christmas songs (especially Jack's Lament and the Oogie Boogie Song).
> 
> A bunch of the Treasure Planet songs.
> 
> 
> That's all I can think of off the top of my head!
Click to expand...

YESSS! ...minus Be Prepared. I LOATHE that song. I hate that part in general lol. My fad us actually a mix of Jafar and Scar. (Irrelevant info for yuh ) lol


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Came across this and had a chuckle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reminds me of a conversation I had with someone:
> 
> *Me: *[blah blah fact]
> *Person: *I don't believe in facts. I believe in truth.
> *Me:* ...
> *Me:* How do you define "fact" and "truth"?
> 
> ???
> 
> P.S. @laurie17 do you still get the same vibe from me? :typingneko:


Do you think he's Te or Ti?







laurie17 said:


> I'm pretty sure you're an ENTJ still, yes You're not the stereotype of commanding officer though (obviously).


shiny does have hella lot of Te.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Curiphant said:


> I find it hard to relate to characters. At the moment, I can only think of one character I related to but she was a bit more idealistic and brash than I am.
> 
> And I've never watched The Little Mermaid whoops


I think I died. Yep, dead.


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> @_laurie17_ what is my vibeee?


Umm.... Hm I think a sort of... peaceful, serene Fi, actually. It's unusual because more Fi doms I've talked with are quite tense, or a bit... darker, maybe? But most of them were INFPs, actually, so maybe that's it? Vibes aren't very accurate though, so don't take it as fact :ghost:



Greyhart said:


> shiny does have hella lot of Te.


Yes! And very healthy-seeming Te.


----------



## Immolate

@laurie17 @Greyhart :fall:


Listening to the video :highly_amused: 

I say Ti for Bill Nye and Te for Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Yes? No?


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Umm.... Hm I think a sort of... peaceful, serene Fi, actually. It's unusual because more Fi doms I've talked with are quite tense, or a bit... darker, maybe? But most of them were INFPs, actually, so maybe that's it? Vibes aren't very accurate though, so don't take it as fact :ghost:
> 
> 
> Yes! And very healthy-seeming Te.


Why does everyone forget I'm hardcore? D8

But thanks n.n 

I think I'm Fi dom because I can spend entire days holed up under a blanket, just thinking, and liking it? I'm not sure if that's an experience an Se dom would enjoy.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Umm.... Hm I think a sort of... peaceful, serene Fi, actually. It's unusual because more Fi doms I've talked with are quite tense, or a bit... darker, maybe? But most of them were INFPs, actually, so maybe that's it? Vibes aren't very accurate though, so don't take it as fact :ghost:


I tried to restrain but what's mine?
@Curiphant gives me _that stone thinker dude statue_ vibe.



> Yes! And very healthy-seeming Te.


I'm not sure she is high Te-Se. She seems to be really introverted in real life. Not like "I don't talk to people much" but more like "I am very content by spending days with my book". ... I made is sound sad but that wasn't what I meant.



Curiphant said:


> I think if you stabbed me, I wouldn't bleed out. I believe in the truth. I do not have blood but spitually exist on another level that I don't know where I'm going with this.
> 
> Truth=facts


Facts can be falsified or misinterpreted. :tongue: Truth is in repeating self-sustained principles.


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Why does everyone forget I'm hardcore? D8
> 
> But thanks n.n
> 
> I think I'm Fi dom because I can spend entire days holed up under a blanket, just thinking, and liking it? I'm not sure if that's an experience an Se dom would enjoy.


I can't have anyone be more hardcore than me, I'm sorry.

Hm, that seems like it's not too related to type? Do you prefer to hypothesise about how you'll react to situations, or to wait and see when it happens? (Note: just which you PREFER, because anyone can do either.)


----------



## fair phantom

Truth requires both facts _and_ self-repeating principles. :saturn:


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> @laurie17 @Greyhart :fall:
> 
> 
> Listening to the video :highly_amused:
> 
> I say Ti for Bill Nye and Te for Neil deGrasse Tyson.
> 
> Yes? No?


YASSS. I knew I wasn't hallucinating. Bill is soooo Ti-Fe. Typing Neil ENTP just doesn't work when you put them together and watch.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Facts can be falsified or misinterpreted. :tongue: Truth is in repeating self-sustained principles.


_So Ti_



That doesn't sound sad to me. I am quite content with my book(s) :ghost2:



Greyhart said:


> YASSS. I knew I wasn't hallucinating. Bill is soooo Ti-Fe. Typing Neil ENTP just *doesn't work* when you put them together and watch.


They were precious :eagerness:


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> I tried to restrain but what's mine?
> @_Curiphant_ gives me _that stone thinker dude statue_ vibe.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure she is high Te-Se. She seems to be really introverted in real life. Not like "I don't talk to people much" but more like "I am very content by spending days with my book". ... I made is sound sad but that wasn't what I meant.


You mean, like The Dude?

But I think that someone can be socially introverted and an E type in MBTI - it's just about using an 'objective'/rational function dominantly. Se is there, but Fi comes across as... smaller? Not that it's not here, just that it's surrounded by taller, louder friends, of which Te is the tallest and loudest.


----------



## Immolate

Guys.

997 pages. We can't do this without Bear.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> _So Ti_
> 
> *That doesn't sound sad to me. *I am quite content with my book(s) :ghost2:
> 
> They were precious :eagerness:


And that's how I meant it. I just remembered a fitting word. "Self-contained"



fair phantom said:


> Truth requires both facts _and_ self-repeating principles. :saturn:


Facts that are based on observed repetitive self-sustained principles. :tongue: This is a semantics, I know.



laurie17 said:


> You mean, like The Dude?




















Him and his bronze toilet. (because he is not stone apparently)



> But I think that someone can be socially introverted and an E type in MBTI - it's just about using an 'objective'/rational function dominantly. Se is there, but Fi comes across as... smaller? Not that it's not here, just that it's surrounded by taller, louder friends, of which Te is the tallest and loudest.


I think so too but shiny didn't seem to mention any... let's call it impulses I'd associate with Te-Se (as in high comfy Se usage)


----------



## fair phantom

I agree with @Greyhart . I don't think @shinynotshiny has more Se than Fi.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Wow, some hatred for B&TB on this thread. Not loving it.
> 
> 
> 
> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Favorite underrated Disney movie? Great Mouse Detective! Ever seen it @angelcat? It's the Disney version of Sherlock Holmes. You would love it! Main character was a Ti dom... been too long to recall Se vs Ne, but I lean ISTP if memory serves. Vincent Price voiced Ratigan and considered it the most enjoyable aspect of his career. He fucking loved it and it showed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I've loved that film since I was a kid. I even bought the Blu Ray version a couple of years ago. I can probably quote the entire thing from memory. One of my favorite bits is when they're going into Holmes' flat and you can hear Basil Rathbone's voice in the background. "There's a good deal of German music on the program! It is introspective... and I want to introspect it!"
> 
> My favorite Disney classics (in no real order):
> 
> Pocahontas
> The Hunchback of Notre Dame
> The Lion King
> Beauty & the Beast
> The Little Mermaid
> 
> Now, you can add Frozen to that list, because I think Elsa is terrific, such a departure from most Disney heroines. So much fear.
> 
> I can't not love B&TB because of the religious symbolism I'm prone to laying on top of things -- a deformed, angry creature is transformed through love, which is emboldened through him releasing the thing he desires to possess even though it is not in his best interest. His death leads to his true transformation, and returns him to his more perfect self.
> 
> Same thing happens with Hunchback. All that magnificent symbolism, woven all the way through. "The very EYES of Notre Dame!" Frodo plunging into hell at the end. It's just ... oh, be still my heart.
> 
> The Lion King is obvious. Terrific movie. Fantastic villain. Gut-wrenching. And big cats. Who cares if it's Hamlet in animated form?
> 
> The Little Mermaid... more symbolism. (Noticing a pattern here?) Though I don't like Ariel much. Too knee-jerk reactive. She rubs my Fe the wrong way.
> 
> Pocahontas ... is pretty much my view on everything. Reflective of my love of nature and animals. I'm not sure if it shaped my worldview, or I adore it because it IS my worldview, put to music and song. So beautiful.
> 
> Aladdin, Mulan, and The Great Mouse Detective also get mentions.
> 
> Favorite Disney princess? Not sure I have one. I identify strongly with the new live-action Cinderella, so she may be my favorite. Or perhaps it's Esmeralda. She's feisty.
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> And how was Edward abusive to Bella?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Edward has all the signs of an abusive disorder, starting with his obsessive need to "control" Bella's life. He does it under the guise of "protecting her" but censoring the friends she can and cannot see, to the point where he actually takes parts out of her jeep to keep her at home, is abusive behavior. The fact that he "hurts her" during sex, and then feels all emo puppy kittinish about it later, and cries, and makes nice, and she just blithely assures him it's all fine, and it really IS all fine, because it's LOVE ... is creepy. That happens a lot in abusive relationships, where the abused assures the abuser that it's not his (I'll assume he, for the present) fault, that she knows he loves her even though he hits her sometimes, etc. That, and the serious codependency issues where Bella becomes manic-depressive and suicidal in the second book ALL BECAUSE SHE CAN'T BE WITH A BOY makes me chafe at that entire franchise. It's like feminism just died.
> 
> @arkigos is convinced this sort of fantasy-within-reality comes most often from Si-dom types, which probably means Stephanie Meyers is one. To which I say NOOOO, PLEASE NO. But yeah, she is. Given that story, she has to be.
> 
> ETA: Favorite villains.
> 
> Frollo - best villain ever, because he's so REAL and HUMAN
> Scar - twisted psycho that he is
> Ursula - because she's fun
> Rattigen - ditto, also ... Vincent Price's cackle. Enough said.
Click to expand...


As for the Edward thing, yeah I could see that IF it was dealing with Vampires and werewolves etc. If this wasn't a fantasy film, I could COMPLETELY agree. I saw it for her protection. Like when he bought her that car in the last book. To protect her. She was human, and so fragile to him. I just disagree with that. However, the Bella part, with the dwelling for months and pretty much dying... i understand that more, on an unhealthy level. But I still see no abuse.

oh well. But thanks for explaining. I figured that was what they were referring to. I guess for ME... is it unhealthy? COMPLETELY. But is it abusive? Nah. IMO.


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> I can't have anyone be more hardcore than me, I'm sorry.
> 
> Hm, that seems like it's not too related to type? Do you prefer to hypothesise about how you'll react to situations, or to wait and see when it happens? (Note: just which you PREFER, because anyone can do either.)


Depends on how stressed I am? I hypothesize a lot in school and how my family will react to Event X, but other times I'm just like, "Let's just find out and don't bother with crap."

I don't hypothesize how I react in situations or myself in others. I always hypothesize about others.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Guys.
> 
> 997 pages. We can't do this without Bear.


Do we stop posting



Greyhart said:


> I tried to restrain but what's mine?
> @Curiphant gives me _that stone thinker dude statue_ vibe.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure she is high Te-Se. She seems to be really introverted in real life. Not like "I don't talk to people much" but more like "I am very content by spending days with my book". ... I made is sound sad but that wasn't what I meant.
> 
> 
> Facts can be falsified or misinterpreted. :tongue: Truth is in repeating self-sustained principles.


Yay I am a bronze guy on a toilet 8D 

So facts come from truth whoops?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Do we stop posting


No. We do it carefully.


----------



## Greyhart

I'm afraid of what will happen when it reaches 1000


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> I'm afraid of what will happen when it reaches 1000


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Depends on how stressed I am? I hypothesize a lot in school and how my family will react to Event X, but other times I'm just like, "Let's just find out and don't bother with crap."
> 
> I don't hypothesize how I react in situations or myself in others. I always hypothesize about others.


The hypothesis bit about family/others sounds almost like anxiety, so it's difficult to say. 

Copying and pasting previously written idea:


> ISFP = As I said before, they prefer to wait to experience something to see if it does oppose their values/whether or not it has value to them (lots of people put Fi as about moral values, but it's about a sort of general 'value', as in 'worth').
> ISTP = They also prefer to wait to experience something to see if it matches up to their Ti system of correct/incorrect logic.
> 
> Both have Ni in tertiary position, which means they're less disconnected from it than Se doms, but when they use it, it's still usually underdeveloped which can appear as seemingly leaping to set conclusions.


What do you think?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Ah yes. I will be around for the 1000th page it seems. Good. 
@Curiphant you may want to get your artwork ready.

Edit:' are you already making signs? My goodness.


----------



## Dangerose

No, truth is on a level way higher than facts. Facts are just facts. The way I view it, if you have to use facts to prove your point, your point isn't good enough.
Regarding my type discussion, at this moment I am really thinking I am ENFJ, but I am not entirely certain. @Greyhart, I don't think that my discomfort with physical factors is a mental issue. For full disclosure, I did have some sorts of compulsive tendencies when I was 11 or so (though my psychologist told me I was making them up for attention which was not true but whatever I worked through it), it manifested in a way that I would feel obliged to touch something in multiples-of-4 times, I thought 4 was the perfect number because it was 1 doubled twice, but then 16 was a more perfect number, 64 even better...it lasted for maybe a year, I think it came up because I was adjusting to a new city and wasn't really settling in well, and I haven't had that since...but I prefer odd numbers now) Anyways, that to me felt like a very different thing from my dislike of concentrating on my breathing or that sort of thing...that's something I've always had and it doesn't interfere in my life or seem like a problem, it's just a thing. I could be wrong but I think it being a function thing is more likely than it being some sort of functional disorder.

Anyways, in the quotes you posted I identified more with the ENFJ bit 'Si in ENFJ' and I believe Amaretasu (did I spell that right) posted some things about Ni that I related to.

I feel internally convinced of my Ni, but I feel like I need to prove it or something, express the things I think of as Ni and test their Ni-ness, but it's difficult. :/ Here are some things I don't know if are Ni-related or not, but they might be distinguishing marks of my cognitive processes (or might not be) but I'll put them here.

I have a frequent thing of delayed symbolism. When I was little I would write things a lot, I would not know what they meant, and then I'd come back and it would make so much sense, I'd find all these layers of meaning. I mean, that's common, but like...I sort-of abandoned that for awhile, I decided to be a marketable writer. That didn't work, I have now officially given up on that dream, and now I'm concentrating on writing as an end in itself, and it's coming back again. Last week I wrote this really weird thing. It makes no sense to me, but it resonates with me. I'm going to come back to it in a month or so and see if it means anything and if I can fix it.

It's on a different laptop, but I'm going to link you to this page, if you click on the book you can see the preview (which is as good as it gets). The Orchid Thief - Kindle edition by Clara Winter. Literature & Fiction Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. . That is my writing style when I'm not trying to prosify, I was very specifically trying not to translate what I wanted to write, but stamp my story onto the page as is. It was not really successful, I lost the core of the story sometime along the line and gave up halfway through, but I'm going to be working on this technique. You can at least get the idea from that little section.

As for the personal symbolism thing, I had this song on a CD and it was bugging me because I didn't really know what it meant. 



 And finally I 'realized' what it meant. It's about a guy who sees a homeless man, and he sees God in the homeless man (like the Greek gods would disguise themselves as beggars). And in Christian beliefs, we have this whole thing about 'if you clothe the naked, you are clothing Me' or something, so the whole song is about the 'beggar' confronting the man, saying 'where were you, why weren't you helping me when I was a beggar, do you only pay attention when you know I am God'. I know that is not objectively what the song means. It's about a guy being really angsty towards God (I think). But I hate that meaning, mine is much deeper and painful, and inspirational, in my opinion, so for me, that's what the song is going to mean.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Guys.
> 
> 997 pages. We can't do this without Bear.


Oh, guys. I'm touched. :woof:


----------



## Persephone Soul

laurie17 said:


> For what it's worth, I'm seeing a few vague similarities between @_Oswin_ and @_SugarPlum_ (as opposed to Oswin seeming similar to @alittlebear who is very ENFJ to me) so maybe they're a similar type? (What do you two think?)


Hi Laurie. Good eye. I can't speak for her, but I have always felt like we clicked. We have the same taste in certain things, but I personally feel like she is more smooth, and less bumpy than me...? Could be Enneagram I guess. Her depth of symbolism and imagery seems far more mature, and I feel like maybe my emotions run deeper...? Not speaking for her though. I guess i feel my emotions are more nostalgic and I tend to dwell internally on emotions tied to the past. I also find a lot of similarities with Living dead too. 

Hmmm... good food for thought.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Alright @shinynotshiny! I really do stink at typing like I keep saying that but honestly please count my opinion as the least valid, but

I really think that INTJ is the best typing for you (or, if you are convinced you use Si instead, ISTJ) 

You do use a lot of Te, but I think that is because it is your first and strongest extroverted function. I think your good handling of it shows that you have balanced functions. I think you are an Introvert primarily for a few reasons. First - that scenario you did for @laurie17. You chose the island, if I remember correctly, but you wanted it only if you were the only person there, the only person to know it. That seems so much like an Introvert to me? Maybe it's just indicative that you have SO last, but the idea of being the only person to know something seems suffocating to me. 

I also can't see your Fi as inferior. I think you have healthy Fi. You value Te, but you are also driven (it seems to me) to stand up for people, to do the right thing, to help people. I mean, you are passionate about social justice, are you not? Of course ExTJs can feel passionate about peopled causes, but you seem to have a healthy grapple on it, it's not like you are struggling to have a grasp on it like I do with my Ti. I use it, I like using it, but I use it childishly. I do not see you doing that with Fi. 

Beyond that, don't you consider yourself an Introvert? I remember on one thread you said your brother considered you quiet. I mean, my family would say the same about me, but it seems like you identify with Introversion primarily. 

Have you seen the recent E vs I Pierce video? I think that could help you perhaps see where you stand?


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> The hypothesis bit about family/others sounds almost like anxiety, so it's difficult to say.
> 
> Copying and pasting previously written idea:
> 
> 
> 
> ISFP = As I said before, they prefer to wait to experience something to see if it does oppose their values/whether or not it has value to them (lots of people put Fi as about moral values, but it's about a sort of general 'value', as in 'worth').
> ISTP = They also prefer to wait to experience something to see if it matches up to their Ti system of correct/incorrect logic.
> 
> Both have Ni in tertiary position, which means they're less disconnected from it than Se doms, but when they use it, it's still usually underdeveloped which can appear as seemingly leaping to set conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think?
Click to expand...

I don't consider myself a particularly anxious person even though I got prescribed with medicine for it =/ Maybe I am anxious? The doctor found me anxious apparently. I had tense body language but when people describe anxiety I don't relate to it much. 

I'm not sure what I think. 

Um. I do constantly consider things worth but a lot of the time, I'll end up overanalyzing the pros and cons and not doing it at all. Like I debated doing clubs and I went to a couple of times just for the sake of saying I did, but I knew I hated it before I even went. To be honest, one experience is not very justifiable as an experience or reason not to go, but I'd already decided that I disliked clubs. 

Some of this might stem from a change of an attitude. I used to have a "It doesn't hurt to try?" attitude and then I found out it does cost you to try so I avoid trying stuff for the time being. I'm trying to get out of the habit. 

Three days ago, a guy called me up to see if I wanted to play tennis and inwardly, I told myself I didn't want to but I knew logically, I should at least try but I already had judged that it was not worth going. I ended up going anyways because the guy was said "I need another person," and I went, "Alright," as an acknowledgment that he needed another person and he took it as a positive response and hung up on me so. 

EDIT: I ended up enjoying the doubles. So sometimes I say I dislike things but end up doing anyways but sometimes I don't. It depends on the time of day and the signs of the stars. 

Then again, I do just haphazardly decide to do something without considering things sometimes… And then I judge. 



alittlebear said:


> Ah yes. I will be around for the 1000th page it seems. Good.
> @Curiphant you may want to get your artwork ready.
> 
> Edit:' are you already making signs? My goodness.


THAT SIGN WAS NOT MINE. 

But fine XP


----------



## Tad Cooper

alittlebear said:


> Alright @_shinynotshiny_! I really do stink at typing like I keep saying that but honestly please count my opinion as the least valid, but
> 
> I really think that INTJ is the best typing for you (or, if you are convinced you use Si instead, ISTJ)
> 
> You do use a lot of Te, but I think that is because it is your first and strongest extroverted function. I think your good handling of it shows that you have balanced functions. I think you are an Introvert primarily for a few reasons. First - that scenario you did for @_laurie17_. You chose the island, if I remember correctly, but you wanted it only if you were the only person there, the only person to know it. That seems so much like an Introvert to me? Maybe it's just indicative that you have SO last, but the idea of being the only person to know something seems suffocating to me.
> 
> I also can't see your Fi as inferior. I think you have healthy Fi. You value Te, but you are also driven (it seems to me) to stand up for people, to do the right thing, to help people. I mean, you are passionate about social justice, are you not? Of course ExTJs can feel passionate about peopled causes, but you seem to have a healthy grapple on it, it's not like you are struggling to have a grasp on it like I do with my Ti. I use it, I like using it, but I use it childishly. I do not see you doing that with Fi.
> 
> Beyond that, don't you consider yourself an Introvert? I remember on one thread you said your brother considered you quiet. I mean, my family would say the same about me, but it seems like you identify with Introversion primarily.
> 
> Have you seen the recent E vs I Pierce video? I think that could help you perhaps see where you stand?


I agree, I just can't see strong Fi. Could be a good use of Fi, but not dom or aux in my opinion.


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> So many users browsing the thread, so few commenting


I googled "creeper" and this is apparently what it looks like.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> No, truth is on a level way higher than facts. Facts are just facts. The way I view it, if you have to use facts to prove your point, your point isn't good enough.


I think maybe we are talking about truth in a different way here. I know I wasn't talking about capital T truth. And if you are going to make a point about something like science or economics or history...I think facts are kind of important. People who ignore facts wind up with ideas that don't stand up to reality...and conspiracy theories.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I googled "creeper" and this is apparently what it looks like.


How would I walk???


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> How would I walk???


very carefully.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Hmm... That's interesting, because for me it is different. Probably because I relate to social introversion but not this introversion. Before I go and jump and play I have to think and first figure out the significance, what am I learning here, what is happening here, where this stands on a big scale of happenings, but then I can play and learn and figure things out within the frame I have already set. But when it comes to some things... I do just go for it. There's a box, hey, I'll touch it. There's someone to talk to, I'll just talk to them. I get exhausted by people, but I still go for it headfirst.
> 
> Nonetheless, if I understand your response correctly I think it just points even more strongly to IxTJ.


I relate to this except my thoughts aren't on a grand scale, including sometimes doing stuff. I'm more self absorbed XP 

I think is this worth it, why is it worth it, how will this benefit me, and what do I expect to come out of this instead.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I think maybe we are talking about truth in a different way here. I know I wasn't talking about capital T truth. And if you are going to make a point about something like science or economics or history...I think facts are kind of important. People who ignore facts wind up with ideas that don't stand up to reality...and conspiracy theories.


Hmm... For me, there's still a truth there. You can use statistics (which I actually distrust, because I think they can be so easily twisted) (inferior Ti yay) which I guess I would consider more facts or you can look at the underlying trend, what _actually_ happens if you do this, which economic theory is the most effective, which causes the most benefit for people, what is the best for boosting the economy, yes this will do this but it will also do this. Supported by facts - usually - but it would also be the truth (as in: real) even if there were no currently collectable facts to support it. 

Does that make sense? 

I mean, I don't think that the ribbon of truth can wrap around hard areas like science and math so much, but I do think that underlying principals are important there too. That's how I flowed through those classes. Identifying the principals, swimming through the classes by floating on what I could identify as I made my way through.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I relate to this except my thoughts aren't on a grand scale, including sometimes doing stuff. I'm more self absorbed XP
> 
> I think is this worth it, why is it worth it, how will this benefit me, and what do I expect to come out of this instead.


Hmm. 

Like you would go up to the box and you would think of cost-analysis for yourself?

Have you seen the E vs I video? As that's your typing dilemma now, I do think that could help you.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> So many users browsing the thread, so few commenting


Yet somehow only 4/5 guests right now? On The Day of the Thousandth Page? Something is off with our guests today.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Hmm... For me, there's still a truth there. You can use statistics (which I actually trust, because I think they can be so easily twisted) (inferior Ti yay) which I guess I would consider more facts or you can look at the underlying trend, what _actually_ happens if you do this, which economic theory is the most effective, which causes the most benefit for people, what is the best for boosting the economy, yes this will do this but it will also do this. Supported by facts - usually - but it would also be the truth (as in: real) even if there were no currently collectable facts to support it.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> I mean, I don't think that the ribbon of truth can wrap around hard areas like science and math so much, but I do think that underlying principals are important there too. That's how I flowed through those classes. Identifying the principals, swimming through the classes by floating on what I could identify as I made my way through.


yes this makes sense to me. facts certainly aren't all. I was just objecting to the idea that facts (by which I mean concrete reality, observed and measured phenomena, etc) are irrelevant or unnecessary.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Yet somehow only 4/5 guests right now? On The Day of the Thousandth Page? Something is off with our guests today.


Twilight happened.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Like you would go up to the box and you would think of cost-analysis for yourself?
> 
> Have you seen the E vs I video? As that's your typing dilemma now, I do think that could help you.


I watched it and I actually took notes on it. XP

It didn't help on discovering if I was an introvert or not but it did help solidify my function understanding (not that I understand how it _applies_ on people and how to _recognize_ them) 

It actually really helped my understanding of Te and Ti and Fe and Fi. Judging functions

The more that I think about the more I think I'm Fi-domand I'm getting really annoyed with myself because I always remember conclusions but I can't always remember how I got to it. It'll come to me. I came up with this conclusion on my walk.

I think I have a filter on what I do and don't do and my inferior Te came out with my stress about school apparently and hm.

EDIT:

I think I would just open the box because honestly it's just a box what's going to be in there? I might consider if the box is worth looking at. 

But like, everytime I pick up a book I consider whether it's worth reading, what I'll gain from it, if the prose is good enough, and if it'll impart some real understanding on me, not some moral I already know because there's a difference between knowing and understanding 

Oh yeah. That reminds me. Person wants to look at something new. I'm like I know it's going to be blablalala and I'm not always right and quite frequently I go anyway, or at least I did before I started saying no all the time, but the point is I do hypothesize. 

And normally I would judge something but experience it anyway. Because I decided I wanted to expereince life.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Twilight happened.


True. We need to consider our guest count before we delve into socially ostracizable topics.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> True. We need to consider our guest count before we delve into socially ostracizable topics.


Who even started that. We need to lynch them. 

Let's talk about Bronies! 8D

---



> Like ESFPs, ISFPs often display a high concern for, as well as good taste in, fashion and aesthetics. They are often physically attractive, well manicured, and enjoy keeping up their appearance. INFPs, by contrast, are often well-described as “earthy” and are far less concerned with enhancing, embellishing, or carefully attending to their physical presentation. Therefore, ISFPs and INFPs can often be distinguished rather quickly by mere observation of their physical presentation


Um.

I laughed at the manicured part because I do wear nail polish a lot but it's more because I have a fear of losing my nails or getting them cracked or injured in any way and I hope that the nail polish keeps the nail together or I don't know, protect them somewhat? 

I'm manicured but not particularly well. =\ I forget to take the polish off even if it's chipped and worn down.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Who even started that. We need to lynch them.
> 
> Let's talk about Bronies! 8D


There's a Brony Club at my school.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> There's a Brony Club at my school.


You should start a Warriors RPG Club.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Aw, I found my first questionnaire from when I was 17.

My misinformation (and poor choice of words) was astounding:



> I feel like an infp, but two people told me I wasn't and one swears I'm an infj. I really don't want to be one of those who goes around using the wrong personality type, flaunting it incorrectly. As far as the isfp thing goes, I think I'm an n, but can you be realistic and prefer having tangible goals that you can accomplish and still be an N? I definitely prefer ideas and like to interpret facts instead of blindly following them, and do what feels right and understand things without knowing why, as well as getting told I'm intuitive or good at people reading all the time. But the thing is, I like to have ideas I can pan out and follow, instead of come up with something that is pretty useless.


I was told this was the classic Fi answer... was that the only one they read?



> I really just want to understand myself and why I'm here. Live a life I am proud of, where I live happily and had a fun life since you only live once, but also accomplish something and make my life meaningful. Follow my dreams. I don't want to die filled with regrets.





> Honestly, any time I've been complimented. Compliments really mean a lot to me when they're well thought out and genuine. It sounds conceited but hearing someone else's point of views makes me feel like what they've said must be true.





> Not being understood. Feeling disliked, failure or mistakes. A seriously conflicting argument. I enjoy debate but they can get too much, and when I've offended or hurt someone badly or they can't understand my views or I can't understand them or come to an agreement with them it sucks. Also... my own insecurities. Feeling uncomfortable with myself or disliking myself really just puts me off and seriously discourages me.





> Usually I try to weigh in how people will feel, as well as myself. I want to make sure the decision is right for me, but also for everyone around me. What my friends or family have to say really affects me a lot and there's usually some truth or depth to their input, and if not what they say simply matters. I also tend to go by what I feel is right as well. If something is completely against my values I really try to think about what it means and why I would make this decision. I really tend to think each decision out carefully... and ask a lot of people about it just to make sure I've made the right decision. Making choices mean a lot and I don't want to pick something that will screw me over later.





> I don't really like rude people, especially when they can't see the other side. I'm also not a big fan of very all over the place people, because they tend to make me uncomfortable. I prefer quieter, calmer people who are good listeners. And I really dislike preachy people. I am really open to talking about my views and beliefs and can accept most of them, or try to for the most part, but when people try to press their beliefs onto me I get really irritated. There is a difference between being open and being pushy, and I have this need to feel respected.


They weren't Si retardant at least:



> And well, I don't plan things out or am super organized I guess.. but yes, I prefer to know what I am doing and what will happen. It doesn't mean I don't take risks or anything but I don't like them. I prefer to do things that will have a good outcome and not be dangerous I guess, where I'm prepared and can get the best out of it.


How you can get INFP out of that... no idea. Lots of Fe-Ti.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Who even started that. We need to lynch them.
> 
> Let's talk about Bronies! 8D
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> Um.
> 
> I laughed at the manicured part because I do wear nail polish a lot but it's more because I have a fear of losing my nails or getting them cracked or injured in anyway and I hope that the nail polish keeps the nail together or I don't know, protect them somewhat?
> 
> I'm manicured but not particularly well. =\ I forget to take the polish off even if it's chipped and worn down.


Eh not all SFPs are fashionable and high maintenance. I know an ESFP who mostly goes around in workout clothes with her hair in a ponytail. She can't sit still long enough for things like manicures.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> Eh not all SFPs are fashionable and high maintenance. I know an ESFP who mostly goes around in workout clothes with her hair in a ponytail. She can't sit still long enough for things like manicures.


I know, it's just it's ridiculous that people are going to be identifying themselves through these traits.

---
Edit because I will not double post:










This is kind of my impression of angelcat. I was googling random terms and this came up and it hit me like yay, angelcat.


----------



## Max

@Loungegang @hoopla @alittlebear @shinynotshiny @Oswin @Curiphant @Barakiel @Greyhart @SugarPlum @fair phantom @tine @Bugs @Whoeverelse

I used to think I was an ENTP, but then I realized I liked action and was crap at ideas. And I used to think I was an ESFP, but where the heck is my Fi? My fave one was when I thought I was an ESTJ, and people thought I was an Ne-User because I kept changing my types. Se can do that too. 

Now I am certain of ESTP. I use Ni, but my usage of it so bad, it has to be Inferior. And my Ti is not non-stop, though I can be skeptical. And my Fe is too good to be Inferior, and my Se needs an off switch.

Today I was listening to Trust Issues, and I think Drake was in my brain for part of that song. Yeah, I like Drake's old stuff. Well, some of it. But Hopsin is a million times better. To me, he is the closest rapper I can relate to.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Immolate

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @_Lou_ngegang @_hoopla_ @_alittlebear_ @_shinynotshiny_ @_Oswin_ @_Curiphant_ @_Barakiel_ @_Greyhart_ @_SugarPlum_ @_fair phantom_ @_tine_ @_Bugs_ @_Who_everelse
> 
> I used to think I was an ENTP, but then I realized I liked action and was crap at ideas. And I used to think I was an ESFP, but where the heck is my Fi? My fave one was when I thought I was an ESTJ, and people thought I was an Ne-User because I kept changing my types. Se can do that too.
> 
> Now I am certain of ESTP. I use Ni, but my usage of it so bad, it has to be Inferior. And my Ti is not non-stop, though I can be skeptical. And my Fe is too good to be Inferior, and my Se needs an off switch.
> 
> Today I was listening to Trust Issues, and I think Drake was in my brain for part of that song. Yeah, I like Drake's old stuff. Well, some of it. But Hopsin is a million times better. To me, he is the closest rapper I can relate to.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


You never thought you were ESTJ.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> You should start a Warriors RPG Club.


Omg. 

The kids at my school LARP too. Right in the middle of the school.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @Loungegang @hoopla @alittlebear @shinynotshiny @Oswin @Curiphant @Barakiel @Greyhart @SugarPlum @fair phantom @tine @Bugs @Whoeverelse
> 
> I used to think I was an ENTP, but then I realized I liked action and was crap at ideas. And I used to think I was an ESFP, but where the heck is my Fi? My fave one was when I thought I was an ESTJ, and people thought I was an Ne-User because I kept changing my types. Se can do that too.
> 
> Now I am certain of ESTP. I use Ni, but my usage of it so bad, it has to be Inferior. And my Ti is not non-stop, though I can be skeptical. And my Fe is too good to be Inferior, and my Se needs an off switch.
> 
> Today I was listening to Trust Issues, and I think Drake was in my brain for part of that song. Yeah, I like Drake's old stuff. Well, some of it. But Hopsin is a million times better. To me, he is the closest rapper I can relate to.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


You are not "crap" at ideas. You've proved yourself wrong through PM. SPs are some of the best at ideas, due to their ability to catalyst action and design to fruition. Ne ideas.... don't always find themselves on paper.


----------



## Barakiel

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @Loungegang @hoopla @alittlebear @shinynotshiny @Oswin @Curiphant @Barakiel @Greyhart @SugarPlum @fair phantom @tine @Bugs @Whoeverelse
> 
> I used to think I was an ENTP, but then I realized I liked action and was crap at ideas. And I used to think I was an ESFP, but where the heck is my Fi? My fave one was when I thought I was an ESTJ, and people thought I was an Ne-User because I kept changing my types. Se can do that too.
> 
> Now I am certain of ESTP. I use Ni, but my usage of it so bad, it has to be Inferior. And my Ti is not non-stop, though I can be skeptical. And my Fe is too good to be Inferior, and my Se needs an off switch.
> 
> Today I was listening to Trust Issues, and I think Drake was in my brain for part of that song. Yeah, I like Drake's old stuff. Well, some of it. But Hopsin is a million times better. To me, he is the closest rapper I can relate to.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


Soooo... you like rappers now? That's the thing? Huh. :wink:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> You never thought you were ESTJ.


I did. I hung around the ESTJ lounge for a few weeks. Changed my MBTI type and everything, lol.



hoopla said:


> You are not "crap" at ideas. You've proved yourself wrong through PM. SPs are some of the best at ideas, due to their ability to catalyst action and design to fruition. Ne ideas.... don't always find themselves on paper.


I dunno. Don't a lot of Ne ideas seem a lot more grandiose and less realistic than Se ideas? I don't get how people consider Ne as idea-based and not Se? We both have ideas, but Se are more concrete and action based. Ne are more connectivr and inuitive based. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dragheart Luard

LuchoIsLurking said:


> I dunno. Don't a lot of Ne ideas seem a lot more grandiose and less realistic than Se ideas? I don't get how people consider Ne as idea-based and not Se? We both have ideas, but Se are more concrete and action based. Ne are more connectivr and inuitive based.


I've noticed the same with an ENFP that I know, as she created a whole universe that uses science concepts for making new species and weird powers, and from what I know she keeps expanding it like crazy. Then I know an ESFP that's a graphic designer and her comic is based on her and her friends' experiences, making it a bit exaggerated but still keeping the realistic idea of it, so it would be a comedic way of viewing crazy real stuff. I suspect that people see the grandiose part of Ne as more creative than the more realistic ideas that are used by Se types, and doesn't help that realism tends to scare some people as well.


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> This is kind of my impression of angelcat. I was googling random terms and this came up and it hit me like yay, angelcat.


Hmm, I can see it. Light, fragile, ornamental, and from the looks of it, lofty. 

Oh, come on, people. That Twilight conversation was VERY important.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Hmm, I can see it. Light, fragile, ornamental, and from the looks of it, lofty.
> 
> Oh, come on, people. That Twilight conversation was VERY important.


Well, golden is pretty cool. :laughing:

Yeah, Twilight is like the death of any sense of individuality for women, even though I can't stand feminism because of how overblown it makes itself, it's really quite a shame. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

I've been doing a lot of thinking and I have come to a conclusion about my impression of @hoopla.


* *




She is a tiny fennec:










I don't know why and it boggles my mind. Forgive me, hoopla :cheers2:





Moving on!

@Greyhart @fair phantom @laurie17 say Ni

@angelcat @alittlebear tentative Ni (?)

@hoopla white noise


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Well, golden is pretty cool. :laughing:
> 
> Yeah, Twilight is like the death of any sense of individuality for women, even though I can't stand feminism because of how overblown it makes itself, it's really quite a shame. :happy:


The truly lousy thing is, I liked it fine for the first couple of books, and then it became insanely popular to the point where middle-aged women were crushing on the two teenaged romantic male leads, and that's when my unease about it, and my annoyance at its anti-feminism kicked in, and I went full on HATE. It wasn't just the books themselves, but how women ACTED over them, that made me want to distance myself as far from them as possible. I shredded them up and down. I tore out every horrid thing in those books and pointed it out. Yet a small part of me felt annoyed that I was very much alone in my loathing, while a great many other people were out there "gushing endlessly" over it. I just ... that entire thing ... and as it shifted into "50 Shades of Gray" and mommy porn... ugh. Even now, admitting I like Carlisle and Jasper and Alice and Aro and Jane makes me feel a little bit tainted. LOL



shinynotshiny said:


> I've been doing a lot of thinking and I have come to a conclusion about my impression of @hoopla.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is a tiny fennec:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why and it boggles my mind. Forgive me, hoopla :cheers2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moving on!
> 
> @Greyhart @fair phantom @laurie17 say Ni
> 
> @angelcat @alittlebear tentative Ni (?)
> 
> @hoopla white noise


SO CUTE.

You? Ni and Te. I've always said it. Always thought it.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been doing a lot of thinking and I have come to a conclusion about my impression of @hoopla.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is a tiny fennec:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why and it boggles my mind. Forgive me, hoopla :cheers2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moving on!
> 
> @Greyhart @fair phantom @laurie17 say Ni
> 
> @angelcat @alittlebear tentative Ni (?)
> 
> @hoopla white noise


This is clearly the work of Fe.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Oh my god we broke 1000 pages. 

Just here reading. And typeless if we ever get into that again.




Blue Flare said:


> I've noticed the same with an ENFP that I know, as she created a whole universe that uses science concepts for making new species and weird powers, and from what I know she keeps expanding it like crazy. Then I know an ESFP that's a graphic designer and her comic is based on her and her friends' experiences, making it a bit exaggerated but still keeping the realistic idea of it, so it would be a comedic way of viewing crazy real stuff. I suspect that people see the grandiose part of Ne as more creative than the more realistic ideas that are used by Se types, and doesn't help that realism tends to scare some people as well.



Besides the thought that "Yeah, I'm clearly a Sensor of some kind"...for some reason I like this post. Makes a good point.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> SO CUTE.


That is the problem. When the subject came up, I sat here and asked myself "What is my impression of hoopla?" and I suddenly saw a tiny fennec peeking through the leaves. I then told myself, "No, I can't tell her she's a tiny fennec. What if she finds it offensive? I hate being called cute. I am a snow leopard." But here I am.



angelcat said:


> You? Ni and Te. I've always said it. Always thought it.


Thank you for answering :teapot: 



Curiphant said:


> This is clearly the work of Fe.


:distant:


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> The truly lousy thing is, I liked it fine for the first couple of books, and then it became insanely popular to the point where middle-aged women were crushing on the two teenaged romantic male leads, and that's when my unease about it, and my annoyance at its anti-feminism kicked in, and I went full on HATE. It wasn't just the books themselves, but how women ACTED over them, that made me want to distance myself as far from them as possible. I shredded them up and down. I tore out every horrid thing in those books and pointed it out. Yet a small part of me felt annoyed that I was very much alone in my loathing, while a great many other people were out there "gushing endlessly" over it. I just ... that entire thing ... and as it shifted into "50 Shades of Gray" and mommy porn... ugh. Even now, admitting I like Carlisle and Jasper and Alice and Aro and Jane makes me feel a little bit tainted. LOL


I actually remember liking the first movie. I know, right? I guess now I'm older and wiser.  For me, it's not the thousands of middle aged women fawning over the two mains, but all the wasted potential. I mean, I haven't read _The Host_, but apparently it's better than this garbage, and honestly, I think Twilight has a leg up on Fifty Shades of Grey, as at least it has some decent conflict between lycans and vampires, and the Volturi stuff was ok. :happy:


----------



## 68097

This is not referencing anyone on this thread but... why whenever I communicate with Ni-doms, do I feel as if we are speaking at cross-purposes and that I am not being clearly understood? It feels rather like sitting opposite someone but you watch your words float right past their ear instead of going into it. I feel as if I am in agreement on many things with this person, but we're conversing in circles, unable to reach a consensus of "yes, we agree on this." Rather, we swirl about in an endless mass of words, in which he must address my misunderstandings of his meanings, and I must address his misconceptions about my meanings. It can be quite tediously frustrating.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> This is not referencing anyone on this thread but... why whenever I communicate with Ni-doms, do I feel as if we are speaking at cross-purposes and that I am not being clearly understood? It feels rather like sitting opposite someone but you watch your words float right past their ear instead of going into it. I feel as if I am in agreement on many things with this person, but we're conversing in circles, unable to reach a consensus of "yes, we agree on this." Rather, we swirl about in an endless mass of words, in which he must address my misunderstandings of his meanings, and I must address his misconceptions about my meanings. It can be quite tediously frustrating.


This was my exact relationship with someone I shared no functions with. Assuming I use Ni and it's type-related, I... 





...have no answers, I apologize, it drove me absolutely batty :abnormal:


----------



## orbit

I'm looking at MBTI blogs and a lot of them are quoting stuff leading to here... Which kind of explains the guests.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I've been doing a lot of thinking and I have come to a conclusion about my impression of @hoopla.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is a tiny fennec:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why and it boggles my mind. Forgive me, hoopla :cheers2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because she teaches us wisdom?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I'm looking at MBTI blogs and a lot of them are quoting stuff leading to here... Which kind of explains the guests.


Do you mean PerC, or this specific thread?


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> because she teaches us wisdom?


*gasp*​


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Do you mean PerC, or this specific thread?


This thread.


----------



## Dangerose

So....sorry, feel like I've pushed this button too many times...but where are we on my type; Is there anything I can do to get it figured out so that everyone is on board; sorry on my tablet can't find question mark so going all greek and doing semicolons. If ENFJ is the prime suspect what are people's doubts; also,is it settled that shiny is intj, sugar plum is...infp or esfj; curiphant is sfp, whho else is up in the air;


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> So....sorry, feel like I've pushed this button too many times...but where are we on my type; Is there anything I can do to get it figured out so that everyone is on board; sorry on my tablet can't find question mark so going all greek and doing semicolons. If ENFJ is the prime suspect what are people's doubts; also,is it settled that shiny is intj, sugar plum is...infp or esfj; curiphant is sfp, whho else is up in the air;


Add me to that list, please. :wink:


----------



## ElliCat

So much to reply to, so little time!

I'm going to just drop this here... I haven't had time to check it properly so I hope it's okay. I'll try to re-do it next week if it isn't.






It appears that "you know" has replaced some of my "umm"s. I don't know how I feel about this.

Like always, I warm up towards the end, so skip to the last few minutes if no one wants to watch the whole thing. Or don't. I don't expect people to do anything, really. But for those who want to see a Fi dominant, well, here's one I guess?


----------



## Dangerose

ElliCat said:


> So much to reply to, so little time!
> 
> I'm going to just drop this here... I haven't had time to check it properly so I hope it's okay. I'll try to re-do it next week if it isn't.
> 
> 
> [video]https://youtu.be/Q_SerkUp1T4[/video]
> 
> It appears that "you know" has replaced some of my "umm"s. I don't know how I feel about this.
> 
> Like always, I warm up towards the end, so skip to the last few minutes if no one wants to watch the whole thing. Or don't. I don't expect people to do anything, really. But for those who want to see a Fi dominant, well, here's one I guess?


can't see it.
@<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=106905" target="_blank">Barakiel</a></i></span>, you're between the SFPs, right?


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> can't see it.
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/members/barakiel.html" target="_blank">Barakiel</a></i></span>, you're between the SFPs, right?


Well, someone on my other thread said NTJ, so I was wondering if that held merit. :happy:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Curiphant said:


> I withdraw. Or I get very angry. Or I cry. Or I talk and vent a lot. It depends on where I am.
> 
> I get angry at my family 60% of the time if I'm around them.
> I withdraw when I'm alone or in public or with my family
> I cry with the withdrawing and when I get angry
> I vent at my family or jokingly yet like very seriously with my friends
> 
> I'm not controlling or obsessive.


Hmm is your family very stressful for you?


----------



## ElliCat

Oswin said:


> can't see it.
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/members/barakiel.html" target="_blank">Barakiel</a></i></span>, you're between the SFPs, right?


Sorry, I was messing around with the formatting. Does it work now?


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> So....sorry, feel like I've pushed this button too many times...but where are we on my type; Is there anything I can do to get it figured out so that everyone is on board; sorry on my tablet can't find question mark so going all greek and doing semicolons. If ENFJ is the prime suspect what are people's doubts; also,is it settled that shiny is intj, sugar plum is...infp or esfj; curiphant is sfp, whho else is up in the air;


Meeee

@ElliCat Im watching your video. Lovely to hear you talk about dancing! Definitely breaking some stereotypes there. :star: (also: I love your scarf...I think it is a scarf)

@Barakiel I don't know. I don't really get NTJ from you. What merit do *you* think it has?


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Well, someone on my other thread said NTJ, so I was wondering if that held merit. :happy:


I don't really see it but I guess it could be. Do you relate at all?
Someone (knowledgeable-seeming) on my Enneagram thread said I was an INTJ which...I think is not true, but ever since I've been wondering where that came from))


----------



## Tad Cooper

Oswin said:


> It is a man who crashes his plane in the middle of the desert. He meets a little prince there, who is also stuck in the desert. The little prince is from a little planet in the sky, who wants to protect a rose who he loves from being eaten. It's about childhood and love and life and everything.
> You should read it, it's a children's book, very short. One of my favorite scenes is:


Ive never read the book, but was told a bunch about it.
I like how that scene was written, but for me its false. I wouldnt need a connection to separate something from others like it - I can see/feel/work out differences just by looking, so dont need to edge closer to know each thing is unique. I do relate to the dying for something bit - I wouldnt sacrifice myself etc for something I didnt care about, and caring takes time.


----------



## Dangerose

ElliCat said:


> Sorry, I was messing around with the formatting. Does it work now?


Yes, thank you) It was very interesting) I like your style; you seem like such a sweet and lovely person)


----------



## Dangerose

tine said:


> Ive never read the book, but was told a bunch about it.
> I like how that scene was written, but for me its false. I wouldnt need a connection to separate something from others like it - I can see/feel/work out differences just by looking, so dont need to edge closer to know each thing is unique. I do relate to the dying for something bit - I wouldnt sacrifice myself etc for something I didnt care about, *and caring takes time*.


It is the time you have wasted for your rose that makes your rose so important 
I think I know what you mean but I don't fully understand it. Which is an interesting thing . . . I often feel somewhat "I understand your words but not your meaning" when talking with Se-ego types, particularly about literature. It makes me wonder about being on the Ni-Se axis. I think in some way the scene I quoted was fairly Si, though I'm not sure. It rang very true for me. I think it's the idea of 'taming' that really touched me the most, probably that is the Fe. I love the message, "You are responsible forever for what you have tamed'. There was another Se-aux on this website who mentioned TLP not resonating with her. It makes me curious. I honestly can't imagine anyone reading that book and not being struck by the beauty of it.

Sorry, just sort-of rambling, not actually trying to put you on the spot) Just that I read your comment and it struck me as very Se . . . the sort of Se I don't really understand. When I'm talking with Se types, my father for instance, I often get this feeling like...oh, you missed the point...but they're not missing the point, they're just looking at a point I don't really understand or value. Makes me really wonder if I have Se in my stacking.


----------



## Dangerose

For the record, here's how different functions make me feel uncomfortable:
Fe: oh my God stop being so soft and rainbowy grow a backbone please
Fi: please stop wallowing in your emotions and feeling special and caring so much about yourself you aren't the center of the world and needing to marry a poor beggar is not so important also just tell me what you are feeling
Te: please stop just saying facts and being so mean if I wanted to know some facts I would go onto google and stop being so businesslike life is short live a little
Ti: you can't just deconstruct all the time you have to construct too and stop harping on that one thing no one cares life is short live a little
Se: stop being so shallow and so literal that I remain confused yet you also sound really sure of yourself which makes me feel inferior and then it turns out you had a deep meaning in mind but I'm still not really sure what you mean and this conversation is going nowhere
Si: stop relaxing and being obsessed with the temperature and no one cares about the paperwork or any of these things 
Ne: you are not so quirky so stop pretending i know you think you're really cool because you think bowties are cool but it's such a see-through catchphrase and you're just embarrassing yourself
Ni: be less pretentious? I don't know, I only really know one definite Ni-user and she's not very annoying or rather most of her annoyingness is Te so I'm not sure. I guess James Joyce is a little annoying. Use real words, Jimmy. Use punctuation. It was invented for a reason.

sorry, stereotypes and useless comments but this is what I felt like doing

and it was mean but it was mean to all the functions so it's not awful is it?


----------



## Tad Cooper

Oswin said:


> It is the time you have wasted for your rose that makes your rose so important
> I think I know what you mean but I don't fully understand it. Which is an interesting thing . . . I often feel somewhat "I understand your words but not your meaning" when talking with Se-ego types, particularly about literature. It makes me wonder about being on the Ni-Se axis. I think in some way the scene I quoted was fairly Si, though I'm not sure. It rang very true for me. I think it's the idea of 'taming' that really touched me the most, probably that is the Fe. I love the message, "You are responsible forever for what you have tamed'. There was another Se-aux on this website who mentioned TLP not resonating with her. It makes me curious. I honestly can't imagine anyone reading that book and not being struck by the beauty of it.
> 
> Sorry, just sort-of rambling, not actually trying to put you on the spot) Just that I read your comment and it struck me as very Se . . . the sort of Se I don't really understand. When I'm talking with Se types, my father for instance, I often get this feeling like...oh, you missed the point...but they're not missing the point, they're just looking at a point I don't really understand or value. Makes me really wonder if I have Se in my stacking.


That is interesting and would suggest you not being on the Se/Ni axis, apart from the fact my INFP sister is very good at knowing what I mean so maybe not? Then again, she's not as good at know what I mean as my ISFP (possible) friend, whoc seems to get exactly what Im saying without me having to rearrange what Im saying.
I do find the extract makes sense, but think that bits of it dont quite work for me? I enjoy the style and the content and find bits of it resonate with me, but other bits really dont. Maybe it's linked to an introverted function?
No worries at all! What didnt you understand?


----------



## Dangerose

tine said:


> That is interesting and would suggest you not being on the Se/Ni axis, apart from the fact my INFP sister is very good at knowing what I mean so maybe not? Then again, she's not as good at know what I mean as my ISFP (possible) friend, whoc seems to get exactly what Im saying without me having to rearrange what Im saying.
> I do find the extract makes sense, but think that bits of it dont quite work for me? I enjoy the style and the content and find bits of it resonate with me, but other bits really dont. Maybe it's linked to an introverted function?
> No worries at all! What didnt you understand?


I don't know. All of it. But I did understand your words, they just...I don't know, it wasn't anything I would have ever thought. 
So I don't know.


----------



## orbit

tine said:


> Hmm is your family very stressful for you?


My mom can be a bit stressful to handle but generally no due to language barriers and her mental/emotional stuntness (she still acts like a child sometimes because her family didn't care for her).

It's mostly I'm just a bratty teen XP


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel I don't know. I don't really get NTJ from you. What merit do *you* think it has?


Well, my main beef with SFP is that I don't seem to use Fi, at least from my viewpoint, I just bullrush things with Te and use my Ni to plan.  Even though you're not an Fi user anymore, what do you think? :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I don't really see it but I guess it could be. Do you relate at all?
> Someone (knowledgeable-seeming) on my Enneagram thread said I was an INTJ which...I think is not true, but ever since I've been wondering where that came from))


I do relate to it, since I seem to use a lot of Te from what @alittlebear said, although she did say it's more of a bouncing platform for my Fi, which, I don't know, couldn't my Fi be a bouncing platform for my Te? :wink:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> I'm so hungry it's 7 pm I still didn't have my breakfast but I had to finish this. Also somehow this got wilder and wilder as I went.
> 
> @Barakiel @hoopla @laurie17 @shinynotshiny @tine thank you for your impressions :]
> 
> @Amaterasu First of all your username instantly gives me Okami association.  But that would be too easy and unspecific. You are a knight in a law enforcement agency.In a twist, a knight in a futuristic city. On a moon. Not our Moon, though. A moon orbiting a gas planet that nonetheless supports life. Not a biological life. Creatures that inhabit it are made out of energy and harvested by your people to power their well, everything. You recognize necessity of it - your moon has no natural resources and your people were cut off from empire that birthed them long ago. Authority always stated that creatures have no sentience, and are barely above microbes in their advancement. After joining the knight cavalry you became privy to a certain cases that made no sense withing "facts" established by the government. You begin to doubt their words and start your own investigation. One day during the raid on a smuggler ship you find an artifact - a memory stick of an ancient design. For some reason you hide it and take it with you. When you open it you find out that it is a board journal of a ship that participated in a war thousand years ago. It says that in their quest to explore Universe humans came across a civilization of creatures that proved to be the best source of energy they ever encountered. The war lead by trade conglomerate raged for years until forces from Earth arrived to stop it and recall all the troops. Most of instigators were captured but some fled. It was speculated that they holed on one of the moons orbiting home planet of energy race. *dun dun dun* What happens next? I don't know, what would you do?
> 
> @angelcat and @hoopla I already brought up some time ago.
> 
> *angelcat* is a kind of professor who lives in a library so cluttered it threatens to cave on itself. Occasionally she orders and categorizes it but then gets absorbed into something exciting, brings in more books and it's catastrophic again. I'm going to give you accidental chronomancy. You jump in time but it's back and fourth and you can't control it. Imagine all the mishaps. *bamf* You are in the Middle Ages. Teleported right in front of some small city's mayor. Fast-forward, you are being burned as a witch, adrenaline kicks in *bamf* you are now in the year 2512. Country is in turmoil because of the controversial law that legalized marriage between human/cyborgs & ~aliens~. Robot and human couples are threatening to divorce if that bill passes.
> 
> How would you deal with this? Create cashes with useful stuff each time you jump? So if you jump to 3000 BC and leave a cache and then jump to 100 AD will you be able to retrieve it? Will there be a point of doing that? You probably would create a wast network of caches. It would be fun if someone in 3000 found your cache from 1 AD with a compass and a camera. Or maybe you could carry a pack full of necessary stuff with you. In case you suddenly jump. Since you jumped into the future is possible that you got yourself some shrinking tech to pack everything into a small bag. Or better yet a bag that is actually a pocket dimension. Yup, the later one is the best. So then there's EVERYTHING you need in there. Including some hideously advanced tech.
> 
> *hoopla* is a professor in a posh study room full of light and some strategically placed trashcans and ceramic vases glued to the floor because she tends to get to read while she walks and does not notice an impending disaster until it happens.
> 
> I'm giving you a wacky INTP colleague that invents a time-and-space machine. The problem is _a)._ there's no way to determinate destination of travel, _b)._ it takes a really long time to recharge, and _c)._ while in theirs lab you managed to fall on the leveler that activated the machine. Welcome to the year_ hell-knows-when_ and _heaven-doesn't-know-where_ place. Your INTP colleague doesn't understand what tact implies and you regularly find yourself about to be stoned/burned/lazered to death but are able to save both of you via understanding of psychology and anthropology. I wonder if you would meet angelcat at some point *eyebrow wiggle*
> 
> @alittlebear is Snow White. Yes. The Disney one. I haven't seen it in 20 something years and yet I get that association with you. Not so much dwarves and evil stepmothers but the impression and movements that she gives. Living with a bunch of dudes if kind of creepy so I'll make you forest veterinarian. Animals know that you can heal them so they come to you when they get hurt. Occasionally you get a visit from a traveler that needs a help or just a place to rest. You welcome them regardless and it may land you in a trouble one day. Fortunately, the entire forest is looking out for you.
> 
> @Barakiel is a punk rock Cheshire cat with a power of pyrokinesis. Because of his stealth abilities he doesn't get caught but many know if there's a spontaneous combustion somewhere it's his fault. You don't really mean to start fires but somehow managed to cause a spark any time you move to fast or even sneeze. You live in an oak with a satellite dish over and it and an optic Internet cable weaved all around it.
> 
> @Bugs , you realize you are new to the thread and thus I have almost nothing to go on? Well. Here you go. You are a Wall Street PR manager in a world populated by anthropomorphic animals. But more like Fantastic Mr. Fox ones than Looney Toons. In fact I'd associate you with a maned wolf. The one with glorious withers fur and black stockings. Which close to a fox visually but not really a fox. If I had to write your story, I'd give you a scheming ESTP tanuki side-kick who is an intern at your firm. Involve some shooting a dwarf a badger out of canon at some point too, probably. And a golden retriever FBI agent tasked to look into your company's finances.
> 
> @Curiphant first of all steam punk setting. You are a daughter of constable in a large industrial city. You father is pushing you to follow his footsteps but you would much prefer continuing to invent gadgets of a varying usefulness in your garage. Your "familiar" is a mechanical ferret. You feel bored by your city and want to get away but not sure where to or how to begin. So one day a nomad flying circus ((yes, blame hoopla but then your avatar + elephant = dumbo, and dumbo is circus)) stops at your city to refuel their zeppelins and you decide that is it. So you sneak yourself and your ferret into one of them. When you discovered carnies want to leave you at the next city they'll stop at but you convince them to allow you to stay by fixing a thermostat that malfunctioned for years.
> 
> @fair phantom I tried to change it but nope, here it goes. I wanted to come up with something light but it's all angst.
> 
> Priestess. The tarot card. The unfortunate connection with Melisandre, mostly due to the hair.
> 
> Long time ago priests just like you led people of your land. Since then it has fallen into decay. Soil lost it's fertility, sky is always cloudy yet it never rains. People have lost any faith in powers of Priests but you know that the laylines are still there, they just can't get past famine that has befallen the land. You have devoted yourself to finding a way to lift this curse and save your people. No one believes you, or rather they have lost all hope and just try survive. So you live alone in a lighthouse on a tiny rocky island. Your only friend is an owl that you think maybe sentient or maybe you are just getting crazy. After years of research you pieces together some information that points you towards far west shores of your continent where, according to what you read, lies the great stone that fell from the sky. Your information seems to imply that your land began to fall into death and decay after the impact that stone created. You think perhaps by removing or destroying it you could bring energy back into this world. So you embark on the journey across the continent, trying to reel people into your cause but, since this is angsty story, you are being threatened with violence all the way around - people don't dare to have a hope anymore. Will you find someone to help you with your quests? I don't know, do you want to?
> 
> @ElliCat is a witch. No, wait. THE Witch. She lives in a tallest tower of a royal castle in the middle of capital city. The creates weather for entire kingdom. Inside her tower there are bottled storms and rainbows. Snow globes that contain actual snow and hail. She keeps a window garden of exotic talking flowers and has a flock of pigeons that fly into far ends of the kingdom and inform her of weather conditions needed in every region. She is a trusted adviser of the young Queen, and a rival of stuffy Wizard from a neighboring country whom she met on a magician conference and who vocally disapproves of her innovative methods.
> 
> @laurie17 is a shaman/wise woman that commands her own band of nomads. Dothraki style but with less blood, gore and explicit sexual content. She took over after her grandmother, the previous shaman, has passed. She wasn't prepared for the amount of responsibility she had to deal right away and has to work through journals and books left by her grandma hoping to catch up with internal and external politics surrounding her tribe and its neighbors.
> 
> @LuchoIsLurking is a space outlaw with a small dandy ship. He shows out of nowhere and disappears just like that. Sometimes he comes back with a completely damaged ship and the other times with a new one. Nobody knows what exactly he does but there's a lot of rumors circling around Galactic community none of them proved to be wrong or false by facts or Lucho himself.
> 
> @Oswin is ta master of the house that she built herself. It has an odd architecture and a mishmash of different styles because she kept adding new sections of the years without a care for a complete consistency. Same with the garden that surrounds it - it has banana tress and Siberian cedars.
> 
> @shinynotshiny is a cyborg surveyor.. Not in any creepy machine way. She just got so much augments because of how efficient they are in an everyday life and especially helpful to her profession. She travels and charts newly discovered planets alone on her ship that is piloted by a sophisticated AI. If I had to write her future she would one day land on a planet and discover that it's inhabited by a handsome space ex-piratess whose ship had crush-landed there years ago. *eyebrow wiggle*
> 
> @SugarPlum is a pixie fairy. Tinker Bell sort. Has many sisters and a very mean right hook. Occupies a field of tulips that she fiercely guards from intruders. Has a gang of bumblebees that listen to her every word. In the center of your field you have a bee hive that is engaged in a way with a nearby hive placed in the field of sunflowers. That field is ruled by pixie twin sisters who try to sabotage your tulips by sending crows there.
> 
> @tine I'm so sorry, I am stuck with your avatar! So one day you wake up and there are snail people all around you. Robot looking like a glowing floating sphere informs you that you slept for 100 million years and you are the last human left on Earth that is now populated by highly evolved snails. Humans have abandoned the planet eons ago but left sealed libraries full of knowledge about their civilization. You were frozen in one of those libraries. Snails theorize that it happened accidentally. Now you are faced with a choices - to live on the planet with snails, to explore the whole new ecosystem evolved after millions of years you were asleep, or leave Earth with an expedition that is tasked with finding out what happened with humans, why they have left and if they are still thrive somewhere, perhaps in a forms that are no longer recognizable as human. ((this was extremely convoluted I'm so sorry)) I would send you to the start but would you want to leave the planet or become enamored with all the new life forms that she nurtured over the eons?


Well shit. Someone has read too many futuristic sci fi novels lately. Or perhaps watched Repo or Rocky Horror recently.Puts my imagination to shame. 

I also see @shinynotshiny as a cyborg. Small world.

I think @Curiphant is the punk chesire cat and @Barakiel is the steam punk giant but other than that I see no necessary switcharoos.

You gave me far too much credit. Absent mindedness contribute to accidental happenings of course. But there are other contributing factors. I am researching, develop a hypothesis based on my findings, and then decide to experiment. I become so excited with the possible outcome I jump up and down, unfortunately forgetting the bowl of cereal on my lap which falls face down on my keyboard and causes my laptop to malfunction. Common sense indicates eating in front of a laptop is a bad idea.

So my strategic prop placements are a combination of absentmindedness and general stupidity.

What I enjoyed about your impressions is they are intact, the spine binding together an experimental novel of an unknown author and origin. You took the Si-Ne of Angelcat and I which you theorized would love time travel as well as my interest in research, ethics and psychology and Angelcat's love of history, mythology and religious symbolism and created vaguely connected rabbit holes. You plant a seed and produce the roots which finally trigger leaves and branches; all can be traced back to that seed.

I discover a tree; I have never seen one before. I know that seeds produce carrots and notice the roots of the tree, leading me to conclude the mysterious object is a plant which was therefore produced by a seed. I notice many seeds stranded beneath my feet and plant them, which spawns a multitude of trees varying in species. It's like we produce the same stories with an inverted process.

@angelcat is transported to Colonial Massachusetts cira 1692. She met my colleague and I while researching our studies and the subsequent interactions through interviews with us for her magazine that followed. She recognizes our distinctive screams whilst we dodge a stone. She uses her social graces to inquire why our predators are attempting murder. She then convinces them that she'll join their commune under the condition that they execute a trial over who afflicted Betty Paris, secretly believing in her heart that we were too pure in the eyes of the Lord to commit the crime of witchcraft. 

My colleague and I have been escaped refugees, on the run but continuously captured until my colleague develops another clever way to escape. I remind my colleague of Pavlov so we brainstorm observed unconditioned stimuli of our predators. We notice that whenever we run, our predators chase us in response. It's far fetched, but we decide to snap our fingers when we first begin to run. After 5 days of individuated intervals we team up with angelcat and snap our fingers without running, and our predators are conditioned to chase. Surprised our hypothesis worked, we run with angelcat, enter our portal, and get the hell out of there. We never know what became of angelcat's portal, but the alteration of modern times via a totalitarian government resulting in hunger and poverty leads us all to believe being stoned to death would have been the desirable consequence.

It took me way too long to develop my meet up with angelcat. It was fun anyway.

I got too excited.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> @angelcat is transported to Colonial Massachusetts cira 1692. She met my colleague and I while researching our studies and the subsequent interactions through interviews with us for her magazine that followed. She recognizes our distinctive screams whilst we dodge a stone. She uses her social graces to inquire why they are attempting murder. She then convinces them that she'll join their commune under the condition that they execute a trial over who afflicted Betty Paris, secretly believing in her heart that we were too pure in the eyes of the Lord to commit the crime of witchcraft.
> 
> My colleague and I have been escaped refugees, on the run but continuously captured until my colleague develops another clever way to escape. I remind my colleague of Pavlov so we brainstorm observed unconditioned stimuli of our predators. We notice that whenever we run, our predators chase us in response. It's far fetched, but we decide to snap our fingers when we first begin to run. After 5 days of individuated intervals we team up with angelcat and snap our fingers without running, and our predators are conditioned to chase. Surprised our hypothesis worked, we run with angelcat, enter our portal, and get the hell out of there. We never know what became of angelcat's portal, but the alteration of modern times via a totalitarian government resulting in hunger and poverty leads us all to believe being stoned to death would have been the desirable consequence.
> 
> It took me way too long to develop my meet up with angelcat. It was fun anyway.
> 
> I got too excited.


Thank you for my first laugh of the day. That was fantastic.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Oswin said:


> I don't know. All of it. But I did understand your words, they just...I don't know, it wasn't anything I would have ever thought.
> So I don't know.


It's okay to not understand someone, I have it on and off with my ESFP (probable) mum, were I just cant seem to get what she's saying or why she thinks it needs to be done etc.



Curiphant said:


> My mom can be a bit stressful to handle but generally no due to language barriers and her mental/emotional stuntness (she still acts like a child sometimes because her family didn't care for her).
> 
> It's mostly I'm just a bratty teen XP


Probably not family related anxiety if you have it! It doesnt sound like anxiety, at least not on a serious level, so dont worry. Could well be hormonal changes etc - I had crazy hormones around the age of 13/14 and that, combined with PTSD a bit later made me pretty much unbearable to live with (very amazed and how well my family dealt with me!)


----------



## Immolate

You ever feel like there's a huge tear in space/time/reality and you look into it and can't turn away? It's like magnetism, and you're stuck in the in-between and don't like it at all.



Dreams. Eugh. Exhausted.


@ElliCat thank you for taking the time to make the video, it covered a lot on Fi and I found myself nodding along. Also, I love your style ^^



I don't remember anything else, I read the thread half-asleep.



Oh! @Oswin INTJ? What a strange hat for you. Also not getting it from @Barakiel.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh! @Oswin INTJ? What a strange hat for you. Also not getting it from @Barakiel.


I'm guessing, like @hoopla, you can't explain it? Though if you can, please do! :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> I'm guessing, like @hoopla, you can't explain it? Though if you can, please do! :laughing:



I don't get enough Te, and you mentioned preferring practical, real-world things. (Was that you?) Sorry, still sleepy


----------



## owlet

SugarPlum said:


> Hi Laurie. Good eye. I can't speak for her, but I have always felt like we clicked. We have the same taste in certain things, but I personally feel like she is more smooth, and less bumpy than me...? Could be Enneagram I guess. Her depth of symbolism and imagery seems far more mature, and I feel like maybe my emotions run deeper...? Not speaking for her though. I guess i feel my emotions are more nostalgic and I tend to dwell internally on emotions tied to the past. I also find a lot of similarities with Living dead too.
> 
> Hmmm... good food for thought.


Maybe it could be enneagram? I'm not sure. The vibe thing is like when you have a thought, but when you try to examine it, it fades or shifts so you can't really see it properly any more. You seem... younger, maybe?




alittlebear said:


> Alright @_shinynotshiny_! I really do stink at typing like I keep saying that but honestly please count my opinion as the least valid, but
> 
> I really think that INTJ is the best typing for you (or, if you are convinced you use Si instead, ISTJ)
> 
> You do use a lot of Te, but I think that is because it is your first and strongest extroverted function. I think your good handling of it shows that you have balanced functions. I think you are an Introvert primarily for a few reasons. First - that scenario you did for @_laurie17_. You chose the island, if I remember correctly, but you wanted it only if you were the only person there, the only person to know it. That seems so much like an Introvert to me? Maybe it's just indicative that you have SO last, but the idea of being the only person to know something seems suffocating to me.
> 
> I also can't see your Fi as inferior. I think you have healthy Fi. You value Te, but you are also driven (it seems to me) to stand up for people, to do the right thing, to help people. I mean, you are passionate about social justice, are you not? Of course ExTJs can feel passionate about peopled causes, but you seem to have a healthy grapple on it, it's not like you are struggling to have a grasp on it like I do with my Ti. I use it, I like using it, but I use it childishly. I do not see you doing that with Fi.
> 
> Beyond that, don't you consider yourself an Introvert? I remember on one thread you said your brother considered you quiet. I mean, my family would say the same about me, but it seems like you identify with Introversion primarily.
> 
> Have you seen the recent E vs I Pierce video? I think that could help you perhaps see where you stand?


Hm. but there's the issue that you can be a social introvert (i.e. prefer being alone, be quiet, feel drained by social interactions) and still use a dominant Xe function in MBTI, because the two are separate theories.

I have a thing with saying that if there's a sign that a function is used, it's not inferior. I was thought of as an xNTJ by my friends because I have a very good grasp of my Te, but there was something that didn't sit right with me being a Te dom/aux, because my Te usage was different to that of an ExTJ or IxTJ.

It's more difficult with shiny, because her Fi would be either tertiary or inferior, which can look surprisingly similar.

Because my brain feels fried today, here's an okay description @shinynotshiny can use to help her (tert/inferior functions of ENTJ because the site only had that and no INTJ).



> Tertiary: Extraverted sensing (Se) In ENTJs, Se is a basic function, less developed than Te or Ni. Se helps ENTJs effectively act upon their immediate surroundings. ENTJs scan their physical environment to observe where improvements can be made, and Se is integral to the application of Te and Ni to meet those standards. Se gathers detailed data from the immediate experience to expand the ENTJs' knowledge base and heighten the ENTJs' sense of reality upon taking action.
> 
> Inferior: Introverted feeling (Fi) Fi is the ENTJs' weakest function, but it does mature over time. ENTJs have difficulty applying subjective and emotional thoughts to their decision-making, since they believe Feeling obstructs decisiveness and impartiality. While this is applicable to objective criteria, ENTJs must learn to recognize the great importance of Feeling in relationships and personal contact, since it creates the close bonds vital to human beings. At worst, a failure to engage the Feeling function can make ENTJs appear overbearing, insensitive, and abrasive. Further, it can result in an underdeveloped system of morality and values, which can disengage ENTJs from the personal world of self-fulfillment.


But yes, what I was trying to get at before (and failing to do so) was that the inferior function can often seem more apparent than the tertiary, due to the lack of control the user generally has over it. This means that INxJs are more likely to show signs of Se than ENTJs, who generally appear not to have the same level of impulsiveness, because they have more control over it (the impulsiveness tends to stem from the jerk reaction to the failure of the dominant function - so for an INxJ, they find they can't accurately predict what 'will be', get stressed out and slip into thinking 'if I can't predict it, I'll need to go and experience it' as a sort of sense of surety that Ni usually gives them - they act like immature ESxPs).
Shiny doesn't seem to do this, at least as far as I've seen.



Curiphant said:


> I don't consider myself a particularly anxious person even though I got prescribed with medicine for it =/ Maybe I am anxious? The doctor found me anxious apparently. I had tense body language but when people describe anxiety I don't relate to it much.
> 
> I'm not sure what I think.
> 
> Um. I do constantly consider things worth but a lot of the time, I'll end up overanalyzing the pros and cons and not doing it at all. Like I debated doing clubs and I went to a couple of times just for the sake of saying I did, but I knew I hated it before I even went. To be honest, one experience is not very justifiable as an experience or reason not to go, but I'd already decided that I disliked clubs.
> 
> Some of this might stem from a change of an attitude. I used to have a "It doesn't hurt to try?" attitude and then I found out it does cost you to try so I avoid trying stuff for the time being. I'm trying to get out of the habit.
> 
> Three days ago, a guy called me up to see if I wanted to play tennis and inwardly, I told myself I didn't want to but I knew logically, I should at least try but I already had judged that it was not worth going. I ended up going anyways because the guy was said "I need another person," and I went, "Alright," as an acknowledgment that he needed another person and he took it as a positive response and hung up on me so.
> 
> EDIT: I ended up enjoying the doubles. So sometimes I say I dislike things but end up doing anyways but sometimes I don't. It depends on the time of day and the signs of the stars.
> 
> Then again, I do just haphazardly decide to do something without considering things sometimes… And then I judge.


Hmmm, I'm not sure from this. I think Fi is there, but I'm not sure about your perceiving function.



tine said:


> I think lower functions ar ehard to see generally cause theyre not used often I think?


As I was saying above, I'm not so sure. I think, especially in older people, the inferior function can be very apparent.



Oswin said:


> Oh, I was going to address this too @_laurie17_ ...I do feel like SugarPlum and I have some similarities, but I'm not sure if it's more so than the similarities I feel with Living dead or alittlebear (it's difficult to judge especially when I am me and as a Fe-dom I think I project and, well, Fe onto other people regardless of whether our personalities are objectively similar) so I'm curious what you see as our similarities. Because it could be type, or it could be something else (for instance, I think some of my family lives near SugarPlum, could be a cultural thing, and we're both Christian, different denominations but obviously having some factors really in common).


I'm not sure what it is, it's just something to do with how you phrase things, really. It was just something I noticed.



Curiphant said:


> Thank you for pointing this out, but how would I recognize my anxiety then? I'm obviously very bad at realizing I have mental disorders (I thought it was impossible for me to have depression because there was no reason even though I wanted to suffocate myself and I was crying for hours on end).
> 
> I suppose I did have some tendencies that might be anxiety related like constantly checking teacher's online schedules and my grades (even though I don't really care for them anymore).
> 
> And thinking the future is going to be horrible and worthless


The future thing might be low Ni? Is it a sort of surety that the future will be bad?





Greyhart said:


> @_laurie17_ what's my vibe? :dog:


A cool vibe. 

I feel I've kind of accidentally implied I'm a vibe guru or something nthego:

Seriously, I think Ne dom is very obvious and I don't see Fi-Te, so ENTP is most likely right.




SugarPlum said:


> I missed it. I was too busy catching up .  lol
> 
> SO, puttin all other opinions aside, what is vibe for me?  Were you around for my personal typing threads?







shinynotshiny said:


> Someone will have to explain what they mean by social introversion.
> 
> But as far as the video is concerned, yes, I'm introverted.


Social introversion is generally accepted to be feeling drained by social interaction and needing to recharge by spending time on your own. But it doesn't relate to MBTI at all.



SugarPlum said:


> I relate to that too. Weird. I also relate to her "superficial" side. She has said this and I don't mean it in a negative context. Hmmm... interesting.
> 
> I wonder if Laurie noticed anything specific besides us just getting each other? Well, not sure if you get me, but I sure get you. I think I 'get' you, Living dead, the most. Alot of ElliCat, and some of angelcat and Laurie. Everyone else, I admire, but dont connect much


It was mostly just how you express yourselves, but it's just a sort of overall 'vibe'...

Maybe it's the Si-Ne link? Many of the other users are Se-Ni.



Curiphant said:


> Um.
> 
> I laughed at the manicured part because I do wear nail polish a lot but it's more because I have a fear of losing my nails or getting them cracked or injured in any way and I hope that the nail polish keeps the nail together or I don't know, protect them somewhat?
> 
> I'm manicured but not particularly well. =\ I forget to take the polish off even if it's chipped and worn down.


Wow. That was an interesting description... No Se users I know do that (me and my friends are generally quite tomboyish or actually guys) and there's no real concern about clothes or appearance going on.



shinynotshiny said:


> @_Greyhart_ @_fair phantom_ @_laurie17_ say Ni
> 
> @_angelcat_ @_alittlebear_ tentative Ni (?)
> 
> @_hoopla_ white noise


Yes, Ni seems right :ghost:


----------



## orbit

tine said:


> It's okay to not understand someone, I have it on and off with my ESFP (probable) mum, were I just cant seem to get what she's saying or why she thinks it needs to be done etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not family related anxiety if you have it! It doesnt sound like anxiety, at least not on a serious level, so dont worry. Could well be hormonal changes etc - I had crazy hormones around the age of 13/14 and that, combined with PTSD a bit later made me pretty much unbearable to live with (very amazed and how well my family dealt with me!)


Thank you ^^

Anxiety is a weird idea for me. I might have school related anxiety but not on a serious level

-- 
@ElliCat, that was a wonderful video! n.n I enjoyed your explanations like Shiny did and found myself relating to. Thank you for taking the time to create it and post it. I noticed that you tend to look off to the right or up when you're talking and I started smiling because I do the same.


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Maybe it could be enneagram? I'm not sure. The vibe thing is like when you have a thought, but when you try to examine it, it fades or shifts so you can't really see it properly any more. You seem... younger, maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> Hm. but there's the issue that you can be a social introvert (i.e. prefer being alone, be quiet, feel drained by social interactions) and still use a dominant Xe function in MBTI, because the two are separate theories.
> 
> I have a thing with saying that if there's a sign that a function is used, it's not inferior. I was thought of as an xNTJ by my friends because I have a very good grasp of my Te, but there was something that didn't sit right with me being a Te dom/aux, because my Te usage was different to that of an ExTJ or IxTJ.
> 
> It's more difficult with shiny, because her Fi would be either tertiary or inferior, which can look surprisingly similar.
> 
> Because my brain feels fried today, here's an okay description @shinynotshiny can use to help her (tert/inferior functions of ENTJ because the site only had that and no INTJ).
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, what I was trying to get at before (and failing to do so) was that the inferior function can often seem more apparent than the tertiary, due to the lack of control the user generally has over it. This means that INxJs are more likely to show signs of Se than ENTJs, who generally appear not to have the same level of impulsiveness, because they have more control over it (the impulsiveness tends to stem from the jerk reaction to the failure of the dominant function - so for an INxJ, they find they can't accurately predict what 'will be', get stressed out and slip into thinking 'if I can't predict it, I'll need to go and experience it' as a sort of sense of surety that Ni usually gives them - they act like immature ESxPs).
> Shiny doesn't seem to do this, at least as far as I've seen.
> 
> 
> Hmmm, I'm not sure from this. I think Fi is there, but I'm not sure about your perceiving function.
> Well if the Fi is more visible… Eh. The perceiving function is probably Se.
> 
> 
> As I was saying above, I'm not so sure. I think, especially in older people, the inferior function can be very apparent.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what it is, it's just something to do with how you phrase things, really. It was just something I noticed.
> 
> 
> The future thing might be low Ni? Is it a sort of surety that the future will be bad?
> Hm… Now that I think about it, it was a surety. I was dead set on the future being a horrible experience for some reason. I thought I considered it a possibility, but no it wasn't a possibility. It _was_ going to be horrible (of course I see otherwise now. I don't understand half of the things I thought or felt when I was sad anymore)
> 
> 
> 
> A cool vibe.
> 
> I feel I've kind of accidentally implied I'm a vibe guru or something nthego:
> 
> Seriously, I think Ne dom is very obvious and I don't see Fi-Te, so ENTP is most likely right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Social introversion is generally accepted to be feeling drained by social interaction and needing to recharge by spending time on your own. But it doesn't relate to MBTI at all.
> 
> 
> It was mostly just how you express yourselves, but it's just a sort of overall 'vibe'...
> 
> Maybe it's the Si-Ne link? Many of the other users are Se-Ni.
> 
> 
> Wow. That was an interesting description... No Se users I know do that (me and my friends are generally quite tomboyish or actually guys) and there's no real concern about clothes or appearance going on.
> 
> Yeah… I don't know anybody who also does that. I'm sensitive about nails.
> 
> 
> Yes, Ni seems right :ghost:


How long did this take you to make, oh my gosh, Laurie. >M<

EDIT: Why is nobody else posting? Now I double posted D8


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> How long did this take you to make, oh my gosh, Laurie. >M<
> 
> EDIT: Why is nobody else posting? Now I double posted D8


From what you've said xSFP makes the most sense and, seeing as your Fi seems much stronger than Se, ISFP seems to work fine :ghost:

....It took a while. A while.


----------



## Immolate

So much to respond to :typingneko:

I have a curiosity. Does anyone wake up with a song playing in their head? I didn't wake up with one today, but this suddenly started playing in my head when I sat down for coffee:






Moving on.

@_laurie17_ This is a bit confusing. I'm a social introvert (I prefer to be alone, social situations drain me, and so on) but I also relate to Michael Pierce's explanation of introversion. That's why I feel they're the same thing. If I come across a canvas covered in different shades of red paint, I'll take note of the reds, the thickness of the strokes, the thickness of the paint itself on the canvas. It is what it is, but there has to be some meaning behind it, and if there isn't, there has to be some meaning for the person viewing the painting. 

The different shades of red represent the different stages of romantic love. The soft red is the first meeting, the vibrant red is the eventual passion, the reds with orange hint at friendly companionship, the reds with blue hint at quiet understanding, the darkest red is the loss of love.

Who knows. You get the idea. Introvert? Extrovert?

About Fi and Se:

I remember you mentioning Se is good at taking in details. On the one hand, I can be very meticulous about things I'm working on, but on the other hand, I don't often notice the details of my overall surroundings. I can be very spacey in that regard. "Since when have you had that on your wall? Oh, since always? I see, I see." I was a bit on the risky/stupid/impulsive side last year and it had a lot to do with my state of mind. I don't often act that way.

I don't know what to say about Fi. My emotions are definitely a weakness. Tertiary? Inferior? I'm lost at this point.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I am more convinced that Ni is will to power. 

*'THE world is my idea' is true for every living creature, though only man contemplates it, and so attains philosophical wisdom. This idea is found in Descartes, Indian Vedanta and Berkeley, though Kant erred by ignoring it. 

Idea consists of the object, (in time and space), and the subject, (existing in every reflecting being). Without perception, the whole world as idea would disappear. The connection between subject and object is not one of cause and effect - object and idea are identical.

Is this world is nothing more than a mere idea, or something more substantial? We can surely never arrive at the nature of things from without. No matter how assiduous our researches may be, we can never reach anything beyond images and names. Man's knowledge all comes through his body. Every impression on the body is also an impression on the will. When it is opposed to the will it is called pain, and when consonant with the will, pleasure. My body is the objectivity of my will.

*That is Bruce Lee too. That is what his martial arts is. His body and style is the objectivity of his will. Which is why it is different for everybody, and there cannot be a one supreme style or method that suits all cases. Which also makes him similar to Jung.

"Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system."


----------



## orbit

FearAndTrembling said:


> I am more convinced that Ni is will to power.
> 
> *'THE world is my idea' is true for every living creature, though only man contemplates it, and so attains philosophical wisdom. This idea is found in Descartes, Indian Vedanta and Berkeley, though Kant erred by ignoring it.
> 
> Idea consists of the object, (in time and space), and the subject, (existing in every reflecting being). Without perception, the whole world as idea would disappear. The connection between subject and object is not one of cause and effect - object and idea are identical.
> 
> Is this world is nothing more than a mere idea, or something more substantial? We can surely never arrive at the nature of things from without. No matter how assiduous our researches may be, we can never reach anything beyond images and names. Man's knowledge all comes through his body. Every impression on the body is also an impression on the will. When it is opposed to the will it is called pain, and when consonant with the will, pleasure. My body is the objectivity of my will.
> 
> *That is Bruce Lee too. That is what his martial arts is. His body and style is the objectivity of his will. Which is why it is different for everybody, and there cannot be a one supreme style or method that suits all cases. Which also makes him similar to Jung.
> 
> "Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system."


I thought perceiving functions can only perceive. Wouldn't his art be representing what he judges is his will?

I might be misunderstanding this.

But will to power? Will?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I thought perceiving functions can only perceive. Wouldn't his art be representing what he judges is his will?
> 
> I might be misunderstanding this.
> 
> But will to power? Will?


Art (general term here) as the physical manifestation of the internal, the self, which is going to be different for everyone.

Or am I lost :calm:


----------



## ElliCat

NOOOO I had all the quotes from yesterday saved up but I guess they got deleted when I posted this morning!! I'm so sorry, I don't have the energy to go through the last 50 pages again, but I did read pretty much everything, promise!

Off the top of my head, I remember @alittlebear talking about her mum being part of neighbourhood watch or something similar? For what it's worth, I actually agree with you. I'd take a similar angle to @fair phantom, that people deserve to have a home, and that there are other ways to "clean up" the neighbourhood. For me it's the principle of the matter. The principle that all individuals matter and that shelter is a basic human right, and emotionally people probably need more than that, they need a home. 

Oh, and the impressions! You were all onto something with me. @Greyhart I'm totally a witch, and now that you're onto me I'll have to be careful. @Oswin, tea is LIFE. @tine I love having my hair braided  but I rarely do it because effort. And unsuitable hair. @laurie17 river and lilies YES!!

I wish I was talented like you guys.




fair phantom said:


> also: I love your scarf...I think it is a scarf)


It is a scarf! Thank you for the compliment (and Oswin and Shiny). 

OH that reminds me, the whole xSFP + fashion in contrast to INFP + anti-fashion... clearly I disagree. :teapot:



laurie17 said:


> Hm. but there's the issue that you can be a social introvert (i.e. prefer being alone, be quiet, feel drained by social interactions) and still use a dominant Xe function in MBTI, because the two are separate theories.


This is based on feeling rather than any theory in particular, but I have an easier time seeing Pe-doms as social introverts (especially Ne-dom) than Je-doms. But I'm still learning to recognise Je functions in the culture of my new home so there's also that issue...



> I have a thing with saying that if there's a sign that a function is used, it's not inferior. I was thought of as an xNTJ by my friends because I have a very good grasp of my Te, but there was something that didn't sit right with me being a Te dom/aux, because my Te usage was different to that of an ExTJ or IxTJ.


I thought you were saying you agreed with it until I read your next post. So yeah, I agree with 100%. My Te is disgustingly obvious when I'm stressed - isn't that the whole point of "being in the grip"? And my mother keeps comparing me to my grandmother, who I'm pretty sure is ESTJ. Maybe some of it's just inherited mannerisms, but I do think being part of the same quadra would help to explain it too.

I'm disappointed that I didn't show more of it in the video. I'm a bit scared to show it around here, I guess because I know how potentially hurtful and insulting it can be. I wish I could yield it with half as much grace as Shiny, who incidentally is still an INTJ or at least xNTJ in my mind. I see a lot of Te but I have a hard time buying inferior Fi.




Curiphant said:


> @ElliCat, that was a wonderful video! n.n I enjoyed your explanations like Shiny did and found myself relating to. Thank you for taking the time to create it and post it. I noticed that you tend to look off to the right or up when you're talking and I started smiling because I do the same.


Yeah, I'm looking away to try to "see" the thoughts. I use my hands to try to "catch" them. I'm really glad I'm not the only one who does that! And I hope it was useful to you. I wanted it to be clearer but I know I left some stuff out (which I've now forgotten). Feel free to ask if you have any more questions, even though I think you're pretty confident of being ISFP now?



shinynotshiny said:


> I have a curiosity. Does anyone wake up with a song playing in their head?


Yes. I usually have a song playing in my head. Sometimes two. And sometimes it goes on for days, even if I play it to try to get it out of my system.



> About Fi and Se:
> 
> I remember you mentioning Se is good at taking in details. On the one hand, I can be very meticulous about things I'm working on, but on the other hand, I don't often notice the details of my overall surroundings. I can be very spacey in that regard. "Since when have you had that on your wall? Oh, since always? I see, I see." I was a bit on the risky/stupid/impulsive side last year and it had a lot to do with my state of mind. I don't often act that way.
> 
> I don't know what to say about Fi. My emotions are definitely a weakness. Tertiary? Inferior? I'm lost at this point.


I get a hint of Se in the grip from that paragraph.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@ElliCat I will get to describing your impression too. You definitely have a distinct one, it's easy to feel, but harder to describe. It is very beautiful, though, forgive me for saying such a vague thing ^^ 
@shinynotshiny I saw your new topic in Guess the Type forum and now I'm wanting to read Margaret Atwood's books. The one about Penelope especially seems interesting, and of course _The Handmaid's Tale_, which has already been recommended to me. Ah, after I finish the two new books that should be coming in the mail soon :/ 

And @angelcat I've still got things to discuss with you, and new things to discuss. I'll try to send you a message or two soon. 

But now, can I ask for an artist to be typed? More than anything I think I would like a genre for this music, but a type for the artist would be nice. Her Pandora station has been one of my favorites lately 






Obviously it seems Introverted to me... very abstract. I'm thinking Pi, and Fi if not Pi. Any thoughts in agreement or against?

Edit: okay here's another video if anyone is curious.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> For the record, here's how different functions make me feel uncomfortable:
> Fe: oh my God stop being so soft and rainbowy grow a backbone please
> Fi: please stop wallowing in your emotions and feeling special and caring so much about yourself you aren't the center of the world and needing to marry a poor beggar is not so important also just tell me what you are feeling
> Te: please stop just saying facts and being so mean if I wanted to know some facts I would go onto google and stop being so businesslike life is short live a little
> Ti: you can't just deconstruct all the time you have to construct too and stop harping on that one thing no one cares life is short live a little
> Se: stop being so shallow and so literal that I remain confused yet you also sound really sure of yourself which makes me feel inferior and then it turns out you had a deep meaning in mind but I'm still not really sure what you mean and this conversation is going nowhere
> Si: stop relaxing and being obsessed with the temperature and no one cares about the paperwork or any of these things
> Ne: you are not so quirky so stop pretending i know you think you're really cool because you think bowties are cool but it's such a see-through catchphrase and you're just embarrassing yourself
> Ni: be less pretentious? I don't know, I only really know one definite Ni-user and she's not very annoying or rather most of her annoyingness is Te so I'm not sure. I guess James Joyce is a little annoying. Use real words, Jimmy. Use punctuation. It was invented for a reason.
> 
> sorry, stereotypes and useless comments but this is what I felt like doing
> 
> and it was mean but it was mean to all the functions so it's not awful is it?


lol are you sure you aren't a 1 core? :bwink:



Barakiel said:


> Well, my main beef with SFP is that I don't seem to use Fi, at least from my viewpoint, I just bullrush things with Te and use my Ni to plan.  Even though you're not an Fi user anymore, what do you think? :happy:


I think you use Fi way more than you realize. It may look different from the Fi of @ElliCat or @laurie17 but in part I think that is because you resist the idea of it, so you don't actively develop it. Also the fact that it is paired with Se.

If it were possible to have your Te higher than Fi _and_ your Se higher than Ni (say it could go: Se-Te-Fi-Ni), I would consider it, but I can't see your Ni being higher than Se. At least not right now. I'm going to need more Ni evidence to be convinced of ENTJ, and I don't see how INTJ could be possible. Bullrushing into things is anti-NTJ to my knowledge—it certainly goes against the MO of INTJ.
@laurie17 I think @shinynotshiny does have the issues with emotions that go along with ENTJ...but 1. She is also a 5 core. and 2. I don't think she has the same issue with subjective ethical judgments. I think she incorporates those quite well. Look at her desire to help people with mental health issues. I see a lot of Fi in her goals and judgments. Am I wrong, shiny?



ElliCat said:


> OH that reminds me, the whole xSFP + fashion in contrast to INFP + anti-fashion... clearly I disagree. :teapot:


SAME. I don't understand that stereotype as all. The whole idea that INFPs put on whatever and can't be bothered to brush their hair...so not me. Writing fashion reviews was how I destressed in college (university for non-US folks), and I always put thought into my outfits. My friends would joke that it was good to have me around so people wouldn't think they were confused or vagrants.



> I get a hint of Se in the grip from that paragraph.


I agree.


----------



## 68097

@alittlebear: I look forward to it.

Random question for novel-readers -- do you prefer total realism or magical realism in literature? Have you any impression of which will linger longer?

I ask, because while I am engrossed in writing realistic historical fiction at the moment, a very real, very nagging desire to magic it up a bit has been nagging at me like a persistent gnat. I seem to be caught in-between my meticulous desire for things to be accurate down to the smallest detail (my Si, as it were) and my wish to turn things up on end and introduce the mystical to the mundane (Ne), with the result that I am questioning my approach to the story at hand. Is it too narrow in its scope? Attempting to cover too much? Would otherworldly elements strengthen it? Or does the world need a proper, straightforward and emotionally-driven sequence of historical events? 

Of course, it does not help that in a week's time, I have indulged in a bit of Philippa Gregory and found it wanting, only to turn about and fall into "Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell," which is such a lovely exploration of Regency-era magical realism that I find myself greatly desiring to create my own magical-infused realm in which to play. And yet, typically, this book is the one I plan to tout about to proper agents and things, to see if anyone cares to nibble or, better yet, to gulp. 

Then too, it has been remarked to me of late that I am a highly engaging, entertaining, and witty individual in person, but my books are all rather dark, morose, un-comical things. 

Blast and damn Fe/Ne, it causes such turmoil in the life of an aspiring novelist. It causes me to look upon the last five chapters of my latest work, a sweet little romantic interlude before disaster strikes, and think, "Oh, how much nicer this would be with magic in it."


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat What type of magic are you thinking of introducing? If it is a touch of magic that is explainable and meaningful within the story (not just random, sparkling up the story's universe), I'm fine with it. But if it is just... superfluous, flashy... I can deal with it, but it seems dismissive to me better if it's not there. 

I'm not sure what books you are referring to that you're reading, so it's hard to know. I would try not to get too caught up in new ideas and stick to my original vision / intention for this work, what best helps that come to fruition, but of course people have different methods and yours could very well be different from mine.


----------



## 68097

@alittlebear:

Herein is my problem -- I have for the past several years been purely writing speculative fiction -- that is to say, magical realism, in which the Biblical concept of supernatural gifts is played out in natural terms -- so characters are imbibed with gifts of prophecy, the ability to connect to and influence nature, etc. Some have even struggled with supernatural manifestations of curses, but all dwell in "our" world, seen through a circular lens. It is a world where one mysterious character can live hundreds of years, where another can place a hand on someone and foresee their life and death, where banshees exist in human form and magical spells dwell on castles where assassins learn to kill, in the inevitable event that the students kill one another. It is a narrow genre.

Thus, others have nudged me gently to return to my straight up historical fiction, because I'm such a natural at effortless attention to detail and ensuring that it is all historically accurate. But the former pull of writing magical realism is so strong that I'm having a little bit of trouble switching back into a world in which ghosts do not exist, and mirrors are just mirrors, and thoughts cannot be shared. I can do it, and quite well in fact, but I am uncertain if I WANT to be on a shelf alongside Philippa Gregory. (In case you do not know her, she routinely bastardizes English history in novel form for her own amusement, and to great literary and commercial success. But where she does not invent and rewrite history, her books tend to be tedious and dull, a plight which befalls a great deal of historical fiction when it centers around real people and events that ought not to be "messed about.") 

So in answer to your question, if I did do revision on this book and include magic, it would be woven throughout, an integral part of the story around which historical events shift and flow, and not tacked on for effect. I am mainly struggling between two very different visions for this book -- one of total historical accuracy, the other of a more playful high fantasy approach. The problem is, I have given both a great deal of thought and planning, to the point where it's hard to choose between them. I want something marketable, but that also people enjoy reading. Yet, I'm appealing to two completely different markets and readerships depending on which book I choose.

PS: You ought to give Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell a read, just for fun. It's a delightful Austen-meets-Dickens-esque Regency story in which two magicians work with and against one another, in the midst of the Napoleonic conflict. Oh, and there's a faerie king hell-bent on placing a black butler on the English throne, and a faerie realm preying upon Lady Pole, and a good deal of hilarity throughout.

The BBC is nearly finished airing the miniseries for it, which finally prompted me to give it a proper read. My only complaint is that despite being delightful, it's a bloody long book. I've been at it for several hours this morning on my Kindle and it's only gone up by 4%. I want to know what happens (since I am watching the series as it airs), but I would hate to skip ahead!


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Curiphant said:


> I thought perceiving functions can only perceive. Wouldn't his art be representing what he judges is his will?
> 
> I might be misunderstanding this.
> 
> But will to power? Will?


As said, without "idea", the world would "disappear". Jung said that all functions are ideas. Ideas are not just thinking or feeling, or rational judgements. They are perceptions too. Sensation. Intuition. 

What is the universe expanding into? The same thing thought is expanding into. Judging functions are too immersed in the idea, to realize it is an idea. The universe we created is literally a bubble of perception. The idea goes wherever we do. We project it everywhere. No matter, where we travel in the universe, we will always find "idea waiting for us". Ni sees that projection through perception. It is an inner light. It is based on so many things I get them mixed up. But it has to do with symbols and archetypes as well. The universe is an archetype and a symbol. 

And then you see it bigger. Our human "idea" is but one thought in a very large mind with many thoughts. Is every thought I have good? Ethical? Logical? No. Bad thoughts and urges can still exist within a true saint though.


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> @alittlebear: I look forward to it.
> 
> Random question for novel-readers -- do you prefer total realism or magical realism in literature? Have you any impression of which will linger longer?
> 
> I ask, because while I am engrossed in writing realistic historical fiction at the moment, a very real, very nagging desire to magic it up a bit has been nagging at me like a persistent gnat. I seem to be caught in-between my meticulous desire for things to be accurate down to the smallest detail (my Si, as it were) and my wish to turn things up on end and introduce the mystical to the mundane (Ne), with the result that I am questioning my approach to the story at hand. Is it too narrow in its scope? Attempting to cover too much? Would otherworldly elements strengthen it? Or does the world need a proper, straightforward and emotionally-driven sequence of historical events?
> 
> Of course, it does not help that in a week's time, I have indulged in a bit of Philippa Gregory and found it wanting, only to turn about and fall into "Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell," which is such a lovely exploration of Regency-era magical realism that I find myself greatly desiring to create my own magical-infused realm in which to play. And yet, typically, this book is the one I plan to tout about to proper agents and things, to see if anyone cares to nibble or, better yet, to gulp.
> 
> Then too, it has been remarked to me of late that I am a highly engaging, entertaining, and witty individual in person, but my books are all rather dark, morose, un-comical things.
> 
> Blast and damn Fe/Ne, it causes such turmoil in the life of an aspiring novelist. It causes me to look upon the last five chapters of my latest work, a sweet little romantic interlude before disaster strikes, and think, "Oh, how much nicer this would be with magic in it."


I prefer magical realism. However, similar to @alittlebear I don't like it when it is superflous and flashy. I think the magic should have a purpose, a meaning, as well as rules & cost. 

Tbh part of my thing is that I am skeptical of realism. I do wish to have _psychological_ realism in stories that I read, but too often realism is just a lie. I find this to be a particular problem with historical fiction (even though I am drawn to it). People may fail to think critically and accept the story as true. I have a similar problem with nonfiction: it is all narrative. At least magical realism and fantasy are more honest about their fictions...and those fictions can at times be closer to capital-T Truth than the alternative.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Blond vampire dad is the best. Reason I watched Twilight. :hearts:
> 
> unrelated but interesting


Well this guy is probably NTP.

Interesting way of looking at the world.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Exactly. I engage when she is discussing sexual cannibalism in bugs because I can dig that. Otherwise... "I like you and you have interesting thoughts... but what do I say?"
> 
> I love you shiny. We see the world so differently. It's beautiful.













:toast:


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Exactly. I engage when she is discussing sexual cannibalism in bugs because I can dig that. Otherwise... "I like you and you have interesting thoughts... but what do I say?"
> 
> I love you shiny. We see the world so differently. It's beautiful.


It's kinda funny because from my perspective you two seem to have very similar personalities (you're going to ask me how so preemptive strike: I don't know how  )
which probably means I'm neither of your personality types)


----------



## Darkbloom

SugarPlum said:


> Again, just for fun. How accurate is this for you guys? I found it interesting, because it fits my siblings and I well. But not my kids...
> https://m.facebook.com/jac.elizabet...l_comments=1&ref=m_notif&notif_t=feed_comment


I'm a mix of only and last,more like only when I was younger though
(and I'm actually an only child,and always been proud of it )


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> It's kinda funny because from my perspective you two seem to have very similar personalities (you're going to ask me how so preemptive strike: I don't know how  )
> which probably means I'm neither of your personality types)


I keep meaning to reply to your post about beauty and the beast and explain where I saw Si in it.

...I changed my mind on shiny though. Probably INTJ.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I keep meaning to reply to your post about beauty and the beast and explain where I saw Si in it.
> 
> ...I changed my mind on shiny though. Probably INTJ.


We changed to _probably!_


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> We changed to _probably!_


Can we make it official now?


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> I keep meaning to reply to your post about beauty and the beast and explain where I saw Si in it.
> 
> ...I changed my mind on shiny though. Probably INTJ.


http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...898-ni-confirmation-rejection-wanted-980.html It's here if you're looking)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> I keep meaning to reply to your post about beauty and the beast and explain where I saw Si in it.
> 
> ...I changed my mind on shiny though. Probably INTJ.


May I ask... Are you still set on Ne (and xSFJ) for me?


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> may i ask... Are you still set on ne (and xsfj) for me?


OMG. Why?????????

*after over a thousand pages?!*


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> OMG. Why?????????
> 
> *after over a thousand pages?!*


It does say Ni Confirmation or Rejection Wanted


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Wait.. @fair phantom is an INTP now? From ENFP?

And @alittlebear still isn't sure?! XD


----------



## Darkbloom

how is @fair phantom an INTP??????


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Wait.. @fair phantom is an INTP now? From ENFP?
> 
> And @alittlebear still isn't sure?! XD


I'm quite convinced of my Ni. I just still wonder how others perceive me, and I want to make sure that even if I cannot convince them of my Ni usage, I do still defy the reasons they think I use Si.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> It does say Ni Confirmation or Rejection Wanted


We must keep with the theme lest we be moved. 

I don't really want to discuss it at this point, I am just curious. Forgive me.


----------



## fair phantom

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Wait.. @fair phantom is an INTP now? From ENFP?
> 
> And @alittlebear still isn't sure?! XD





Living dead said:


> how is @fair phantom an INTP??????


:glee: i've been one for a few days. TBH I'm just trying it out. See if it fits. @arkigos and @hoopla proposed it as a possibility and I think some other people. 

ETA: Oh yes @tine also detected Ti and Fe in my questionnaire.


----------



## 68097

This is the "please, come as you are and leave as another type" thread.


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> Again, just for fun. How accurate is this for you guys? I found it interesting, because it fits my siblings and I well. But not my kids...
> https://m.facebook.com/jac.elizabet...otal_comments=1&ref=m_notif¬if_t=feed_comment


I'm only kid I maybe like 10% of that.



hoopla said:


> Space is cool honestly I don't know why I'm not more interested in it. That video about space time blew my mind. I'm more of a time travel and dystopian rather than space girl. I noticed your fantasy stories were shorter  You seemed to pick the fantasy for those it suited (alittlebear especially; she is fantasy!).


Yeah, some _had_ to be fantasy. But with fantasy I can come up with concepts but what to _do_ with hem, which way they should go is way harder.



> I noticed we do the same thing but inverted, and my stories are more "realistic" and yours are so overblown but the tangible seed is there if you're looking for it. *That's what you meant by traceable origin*.














> The conflict: Angel Cat's portal eventually teleports the puritans to modern times. They are convinced we escaped to avoid the punishment warranted for such heinous crimes... now they have to deal with the government. And how to capture us despite the restrictions, since the government is an atheist one.


8 seasons and a movie. In the end @angelcat get's her power under control and you and your INTP sidekick get a rare and precious power core that allows time&space machine to recharge fast and control where it jumps. Que years of fanfiction and eventual action reboot with almost offensively hot cast.



Curiphant said:


> Nobody in my family understands my mother because she has Si and the rest of us have Se and it's terrible. XP
> 
> SPs vs SJs


And my ISTJ stepdad is stuck between Fe-Ne and Ne-Fe. Horror.



angelcat said:


> This is the "please, come as you are and leave as another type" thread.


*sweating* :th_blush:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Greyhart said:


> I've 2 ESFP friends - half-brother and ex-gaming partner. The only way we can communicate is by talking strictly about things we both like. If anything else or even stuff like opinions gets involved it's like talking through a wall. The most infuriating is how both of them are unwilling to admit faults in things and people they like and get aggressively defensive in a response to criticism. Talking about how something sucks and how it could be improved is essential part of my fangirling.


I wonder if they may be too sensitive to negative stuff, as one of my ESFP friends doesn't mind to complain about the stuff that she likes. We end bitching about BlazBlue, as she played the latest game and complained about some characters being bland, and I've played the two games before that one, so I add my own troll remarks like saying that one of the main characters is just fanservice bait. She also prefers some minor characters and we end talking about how messy is the plot, being convoluted as hell. Dunno if enneagram has anything to do with this, but she's likely a 7 and trolls people and isn't afraid to tear other characters down, specially if the facts about them make no sense (specially bad with people that create their own characters) and forget that she will like unrealistic crap. It's also fun to talk with her as she's blunt xD


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> *sweating* :th_blush:


Oh stop. What else could you be?

:ball:


----------



## Max

@eveRYONE 

I am kinda dissapointed in myself. I got kicked outta a bar because some old bastard didn't like the look of me. And I never got served in another because I forgot my ID. I ended up watching Jurassic Park sober. It woulda been better tipsy. Nevertheless, it was a great movie. Owen was so badass. The dinosaur was an ass, and Claire (I think her name was or Karen), she was a wuss. And Larry was fine. And the Dude who owned the park was too hasty. Loads of action, go see it. I thought I would hate it, but I didn't. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dangerose

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @eveRYONE
> 
> I am kinda dissapointed in myself. I got kicked outta a bar because some old bastard didn't like the look of me. And I never got served in another because I forgot my ID. I ended up watching Jurassic Park sober. It woulda been better tipsy. Nevertheless, it was a great movie. Owen was so badass. The dinosaur was an ass, and Claire (I think her name was or Karen), she was a wuss. And Larry was fine. And the Dude who owned the park was too hasty. Loads of action, go see it. I thought I would hate it, but I didn't.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


Haven't seen it.
Some cinemas are also bars, we have one in our town (actually...2?) For me that ruins the social aspect of a bar but since it sounds like you weren't lucky in that respect it could be cool.


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> This is the "please, come as you are and leave as another type" thread.


aHEM


ESFJ


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> aHEM
> 
> 
> ESFJ


eaceful:


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh stop. What else could you be?
> 
> :ball:


If @Greyhart isn't an ENTP, nothing will make sense anymore. The earth will revolve around the moon. Apples will fall upwards. Sound will move faster than light. California will experience rain for forty days and forty nights.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> If @_Greyhart_ isn't an ENTP, nothing will make sense anymore. The earth will revolve around the moon. Apples will fall upwards. Sound will move faster than light. California will experience rain for forty days and forty nights.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Oswin may I inquire about the subject of your avatar?


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> aHEM
> 
> ESFJ


Considered it.

Then I went to see "Jurassic World" on Sunday, against my better judgment (it being a weekend) and after two and a half hours in a packed theater, I wasn't even sociable with my friends at lunch. They wanted to go walk around the shopping complex. I mumbled excuses and ran for the car, because I couldn't _wait_ to get home and stay there. Alone. Honestly, the older I get, the more of a hermit I become. It's sad. I look for excuses not to go places or see people.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Considered it.
> 
> Then I went to see "Jurassic World" on Sunday, against my better judgment (it being a weekend) and after two and a half hours in a packed theater, I wasn't even sociable with my friends at lunch. They wanted to go walk around the shopping complex. I mumbled excuses and ran for the car, because I couldn't _wait_ to get home and stay there. Alone. Honestly, the older I get, the more of a hermit I become. It's sad. I look for excuses not to go places or see people.


But, apparently, social introversion is irrelevant.


----------



## Greyhart

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @eveRYONE
> 
> I am kinda dissapointed in myself. I got kicked outta a bar because some old bastard didn't like the look of me. And I never got served in another because I forgot my ID. I ended up watching Jurassic Park sober. It woulda been better tipsy. Nevertheless, it was a great movie. Owen was so badass. The dinosaur was an ass, and Claire (I think her name was or Karen), she was a wuss. And Larry was fine. And the Dude who owned the park was too hasty. Loads of action, go see it. I thought I would hate it, but I didn't.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


~DINOSAURS~ :fall:



Blue Flare said:


> I wonder if they may be too sensitive to negative stuff, as one of my ESFP friends doesn't mind to complain about the stuff that she likes. We end bitching about BlazBlue, as she played the latest game and complained about some characters being bland, and I've played the two games before that one, so I add my own troll remarks like saying that one of the main characters is just fanservice bait. She also prefers some minor characters and we end talking about how messy is the plot, being convoluted as hell. Dunno if enneagram has anything to do with this, but she's likely a 7 and trolls people and isn't afraid to tear other characters down, specially if the facts about them make no sense (specially bad with people that create their own characters) and forget that she will like unrealistic crap. It's also fun to talk with her as she's blunt xD


Possible because they are younger (than me) dudes and feel a need to defend their whatever or possibly because I criticize like an a-hole. Or at least I come off like that.



shinynotshiny said:


> Oh stop. What else could you be?
> 
> :ball:


EISNFTJP




fair phantom said:


> If @Greyhart isn't an ENTP, nothing will make sense anymore. The earth will revolve around the moon. Apples will fall upwards. Sound will move faster than light. California will experience rain for forty days and forty nights.


I could cause an apocalypse. So much responsibility.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> But, apparently, social introversion is irrelevant.


Not sure I agree with that theory.

Fe-doms are obvious a mile away. @alittlebear is one. How do I compare?


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Not sure I agree with that theory.
> 
> Fe-doms are obvious a mile away. @_alittlebear_ is one. How do I compare?


 @alittlebear is a saint. Who can compare?


(But I'm with you on the introversion thing.)


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> But, apparently, social introversion is irrelevant.


I think this is somewhat valid with Pe doms but for Je doms their Je-domness is kind of apparent. Being around my 2 Fe doms makes me consider being a closet introvert.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> @alittlebear is a saint. Who can compare?
> 
> (But I'm with you on the introversion thing.)


Too true.

Though, toss anything at her and you get... Fe back. 

Toss anything at me, and I'll probably smack you with it...


----------



## orbit

Extroverted kind of socially and yo tengo Fi 

I behave like a social introvert but talk like an extrovert. Which sounds like just social introversion but I don't know how to explain it. I see social introverts and I'm a bit more out there than them but I also avoid acting too extroverted eh. 
Oh just ignore me


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Too true.
> 
> Though, toss anything at her and you get... Fe back.
> 
> Toss anything at me, and I'll probably smack you with it...


Feisty Fe? :boxing:

I do remember Bear saying she related to social introversion.


----------



## Greyhart

I finished Annihilation - it raised ever more questions, I love it so Lovecraftian (or possibly it is just for me but eh, if I see it - it has to be there). Started a second book. Suddenly third-person POV.

Also tomorrow going out with bff for first time in a while. And then on Saturday off to see ~DINOSAURS~ with the team. :dog: I missed company so much. I hate how everyone has their own "lives" that don't "revolve" around me.









Having my computer talk to me would be nice.

P.S. off to sleep.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Feisty Fe? :boxing:
> 
> I do remember Bear saying she related to social introversion.


If you respond first to everything with Fe, you're Fe-dom, and from where I sit, she uses Fe constantly. 

(Sorry, we're talking about the OP in the third person again.)

ETA: Though I will concede that an ENFJ I know says my Fe is on par with hers, and a lot like her ESFJ mother's, but my overall impression that she gets from me is "reserved and calm," which she likens to Introversion tendencies. So ... eh, whatever. Really don't think I'm a Fe-dom, but I guess anything is possible.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> If you respond first to everything with Fe, you're Fe-dom, and from where I sit, she uses Fe constantly.
> 
> (Sorry, we're talking about the OP in the third person again.)


mhm, I'm just saying she relates to social introversion. I found that interesting, especially because the two feel the same to me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Fe is weird for me because in a way it explains all my problems even though I thought it never would. I thought it wasn't me at all. But I was so wrong. 

It explains why I am the bunny, why I am always smiling, why politeness is a thing that I could never not have (save in very dire situations). It explains why I cannot hurt anyone, why I can speak so easily with people, why I am assertive about some things but not others. 

And yet, I seem to use Fe abnormally. I am an unhealthy Fe user in some respects. My problem is not that I am too pushy, but that I am not pushy enough. That I am too correctly aware of what others think/feel regarding me, and that my actions rotate around that. (Sometimes in a way that people cannot understand. "Why don't you talk to her?" "Well, she doesn't like me. None of her friends do." "How do you know that? Did she say something to you?" Well, it's the looks she gives me, the sneer she has in her voice after I say something... but these are not solid indicators, and people say I am overreacting. Only to find out a few months later that she's talking about me to that person and she in fact despises me as I suspected.) And when I come to these situations, I either ignore them entirely, smother them, or treat them with a slight coldness that lets them know that I understand they dislike me, and I'm not going to cheer their ego. It just... depends. 

But the worst thing is that it holds me back and holds me into rotation around others, where I am constantly accommodating to others, always held back by that knowledge of where I stand and what they want for me. 

And, I do wonder about my own Introversion... and yet I do not. There is no way I could ever have been a Te user in the Ego (no IxTJ), but I think that had I taken different paths in life I could have developed from an Fe child into an ESFJ. But then... I mean, my sister just came into my room to talk, and I had a hard time focusing because my mind was already working on something and I was detached, my energy level was not up. As an ExxJ little girl, she finds my need for personalized seclusion something that is beyond her. And yet I think of myself at her age -- also loving to spend time with my older cousins, always pestering them, always open to a talk. And I think of how my Fe is my cushion to the world, the thing that I use most naturally, the thing I could not exist with without losing my dominant personality traits. 

I mean I am Introverted in a social sense - I would also desire to go home after watching a movie with friends (with extended family it would be different and I would want to keep going, ha) - but I am also Extroverted - always fully focused on people, unable to detach from those around me, unable to fathom a world where I was alone and always dreaming of a life where I am constantly interacting with others. 

Tl;dr I'm an Fe-dominant and I think I like being that ^^


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

shinynotshiny said:


> But, apparently, social introversion is irrelevant.





angelcat said:


> This is the "please, come as you are and leave as another type" thread.


Perfect. I've got it down to xSFx. Or IxFx, maybe.

:ball:<- just because.


Also, yes, I can see OP as an Fe-dom, and definitely an iNtuitive.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Fe is weird for me because in a way it explains all my problems even though I thought it never would. I thought it wasn't me at all. But I was so wrong.
> 
> It explains why I am the bunny, why I am always smiling, why politeness is a thing that I could never not have (save in very dire situations). It explains why I cannot hurt anyone, why I can speak so easily with people, why I am assertive about some things but not others.
> 
> And yet, I seem to use Fe abnormally. I am an unhealthy Fe user in some respects. My problem is not that I am too pushy, but that I am not pushy enough. That I am too correctly aware of what others think/feel regarding me, and that my actions rotate around that. (Sometimes in a way that people cannot understand. "Why don't you talk to her?" "Well, she doesn't like me. None of her friends do." "How do you know that? Did she say something to you?" Well, it's the looks she gives me, the sneer she has in her voice after I say something... but these are not solid indicators, and people say I am overreacting. Only to find out a few months later that she's talking about me to that person and she in fact despises me as I suspected.) And when I come to these situations, I either ignore them entirely, smother them, or treat them with a slight coldness that lets them know that I understand they dislike me, and I'm not going to cheer their ego. It just... depends.
> 
> But the worst thing is that it holds me back and holds me into rotation around others, where I am constantly accommodating to others, always held back by that knowledge of where I stand and what they want for me.
> 
> And, I do wonder about my own Introversion... and yet I do not. There is no way I could ever have been a Te user in the Ego (no IxTJ), but I think that had I taken different paths in life I could have developed from an Fe child into an ESFJ. But then... I mean, my sister just came into my room to talk, and I had a hard time focusing because my mind was already working on something and I was detached, my energy level was not up. As an ExxJ little girl, she finds my need for personalized seclusion something that is beyond her. And yet I think of myself at her age -- also loving to spend time with my older cousins, always pestering them, always open to a talk. And I think of how my Fe is my cushion to the world, the thing that I use most naturally, the thing I could not exist with without losing my dominant personality traits.
> 
> I mean I am Introverted in a social sense - I would also desire to go home after watching a movie with friends (with extended family it would be different and I would want to keep going, ha) - but I am also Extroverted - always fully focused on people, unable to detach from those around me, unable to fathom a world where I was alone and always dreaming of a life where I am constantly interacting with others.
> 
> Tl;dr I'm an Fe-dominant and I think I like being that ^^


I'm going to focus on things that stood out to me, starting with your last point.

I don't want to be alone. There's a difference between needing your space and living a passive life (as far as interacting with the world) and not having anyone to turn to -- being truly alone. I am extremely solitary, and I prefer it that way more often than not, but I still need people in my life. Everyone does. I know you may not have meant it this way, but I want to make it clear that companionship and social interaction is necessary for introverts, just to a different degree.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> mhm, I'm just saying she relates to social introversion. I found that interesting, especially because the two feel the same to me.












(I just realized I'm miffed that I didn't get to see more of Margaery and Stannis in general this season. Boo.)

@alittlebear: what you said in that post reminds me a great deal of a similar conversation I had with an ENFJ, who feels much the same way. Much as she would like to detach from her emotional environment, she just ... can't. In a group, she automatically adjusts to their needs, expectations, desires, etc, and is socially aware of what is happening around her at all times; their motives, their feelings, their likes and dislikes, often without being told. I remember that what started our conversation was me expressing envy for the idea of being an ENFJ, because she has so much more presence than I do in a group; and she said, "Don't be, being a Fe-dom is not all it is cracked up to be." 

In truth, on a mental level I am not certain I can identify with Fe-dom, even though a lot of my response to things is very Fe in and of itself. I am not, as you are, inclined to be so strident in my moral appraisals, but I'm unsure if that is simply Fe or FeNi, because I've noticed ENFJs are far more inclined to assert absolute opinions in that regard than Fe/Ne, since Ne is always open to the idea that our appraisal of the situation could be wrong, that we may miss some piece of evidence that will change our opinion. In some ways, I am so much more Fe than my ISFJ friend, and in some ways, I am so much less.

She is far more socially amenable and bubbly, but I am much more impacted by cruelty. There is a reason I identified strongly with the INFJ stereotypes, because it greatly emphasizes sensitivity toward callousness, violence, cruelty toward animals, a strong pull toward nature, etc. I am the one who carries spiders outside and moralizes that unless a creature is doing harm, there is no reason to kill it; she is the one who actually actively takes care of people. I am the one who smiles at you when I learn you're a hunter and then asks what that poor innocent animal ever did to you; she is the one who admitted to me once that she'd like to try bow hunting. I am the one who felt a little bit sick to her stomach watching "Jurassic World," because all I could think about was how sickening it is that humans have always enjoyed watching people and animals die for entertainment; the only difference between us and the ancient Romans is that now the deaths aren't real, but the creepy subtext and what it says about human nature remains the same; she loved the entire thing. I cried when they found the dead "veggie-asaures"; she didn't. I cried when Fantine sang in Les Mis; she didn't. I cried during the pilot of ALIAS; she didn't. So in some ways, I'm more emotionally open than she is, despite being reserved, but also far more logically-oriented. She proposes things that are ridiculous; I rip them apart. 

In a social setting, though, she's more inclined to be outgoing, and warm, and personable, and I'm the one who can't seem to warm up and finds her sudden spontaneous put-on extroversion tiring. So ... yeah.

What is it Dorian Gray says in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?

"I'm complicated."


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @Oswin may I inquire about the subject of your avatar?


http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...898-ni-confirmation-rejection-wanted-980.html 
*ahem*
See comment #9797 )


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh, one Extroverted thing from last night. 

I was walking with my father (I am getting addicted to walking which I take as a good thing) and he mentioned how he would love to live in an isolated place, away from others, just him and his land and his space. And I responded, no! I could not imagine that. I like waking up and knowing that others are waking up beside me, that I am not alone. He responded that this was a difference between him and I. He said that when he was little, he very much enjoyed waking up in the morning when he was on the farm and knowing that just he was there, watching the world, privately. I replied that I would also enjoy such an experience, but it would certainly be amplified if I had a friend beside me. 

That said, I think my father is ESTP, just perhaps SP and developing his Introverted side given his age, but it was an interesting difference. 

Or, in the book I'm unfortunately still reading (a bit put off by this because my new books have arrived and I'm ready to move on), _The Secret History_. The narrator describes how happy he is to live alone, how he is hurt and he just wants privacy... and I squirm! That sounds terrible! Even if/when I do live alone I must find a way to live with animals, or to have social interaction every day and a TV on with me at night. When my great aunt lived alone in an apartment, I could not understand it. What was life? What did she do when we were not there? She went to church and my uncle spent time with her, so that's good, but we know that as an Extroverted, naturally social person she is so much better off in the community with other people. We visited her during meal time the other month, and she was just so talkative. She has so many friends, even in her older age. I think that's the only life I could have in that state, too. 

Oh, and there was a post on Tumblr about how there is a town of 200 people and they all live in one building. Others were reblogging and commenting how that was a dystopia... I thought quite the opposite. That sounds like the dream. I've mentioned before that I used to dream when I was younger of my entire family living with me, and I would design cruise liners that would individually accommodate our needs... so we could all stay together, they wouldn't leave, we would all be happy. I designed smoking rooms, dog rooms, quiet rooms, basketball courts for those who liked that... so many things for all of them, so they would be happy and stay with me. I've always dreamed of having a big family. We came to a set of houses where an extended family lived the other day and I said, "That would be the life." Other people are my dream. I love being involved in other people's lives. And I love experiencing them. 

All of these things think I am a quacking Extrovert. I still need to withdraw, I can be aloof and have a hard time engaging in conversation as easily and naturally as others, some social things seem unknown to me, sharing myself in a normal way is awkward... but I exhibit social anxiety (apparently) and I think that some of these traits come with a splash of N. All in all, I think I'm an Extrovert who has been forced due to social and personal circumstance into Introverted habits.


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## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm going to focus on things that stood out to me, starting with your last point.
> 
> I don't want to be alone. There's a difference between needing your space and living a passive life (as far as interacting with the world) and not having anyone to turn to -- being truly alone. I am extremely solitary, and I prefer it that way more often than not, but I still need people in my life. Everyone does. I know you may not have meant it this way, but I want to make it clear that companionship and social interaction is necessary for introverts, just to a different degree.


I think I developed that idea of E vs I especially when I saw someone who identified as INFJ say on a thread that she would "be a wandering person, away from people, away from society". This was different from my response, which was essentially that I _need_ people, I crave people, and living away from people and only interacting a short bit with others would be most depressing for me. 

That's what I meant, I think. I could be incorrect about that facet of Introversion, but it seems to me that Introverts - especially those with a strong I preference - would be alright going a few days not interacting with people. Not a lifetime - no one could bear that, not even those who proclaim that is their greatest desire - but a few days. I also think of your questionnaire, where I believe you stated your ideal vacation (out of the choices) would be total isolation on the island. That is an idea I could never have. If I went to an island like that (if I had to, it certainly would not be my first choice), I would need to bring my entire extended family with me for it to be a worthwhile experience. I would walk on the beach alone at night perhaps, but I would still need several hours of interaction with others to be alright inside. 

But I do not believe that anyone can be truly alone, and I do not think that is what my idea of Introversion includes at this time. I could be misunderstanding my own awareness though.


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## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...898-ni-confirmation-rejection-wanted-980.html
> *ahem*
> See comment #9797 )


I do still have to respond regarding BATB don't I...


----------



## Dangerose

@alittlebear I honestly don't think your Fe is unhealthy. You might be overly weighed by Fe and need to develop your other functions more, but unhealthy Fe is its own thing, and I see no signs of it from you, except that your locus of identity seems to be a bit too externally focused, but it's a really common problem for a lot of young people.

Truly unhealthy Fe is controlling, image-obsessed, desperate for approval, manipulating people to feed off their emotions, too strident in moral decisions or likely to completely reinvent itself to meet others' expectations, competitive, social climbing, likely to use others as their personal therapists or to manipulate them emotionally to get what it wants.

I think we should be careful about what we call a healthy and unhealthy function. It's not that hard to find unhealthy Fe (mine is far worse than yours), yours is definitely on the good side. Just saying.


----------



## Dangerose

My only qualm about social extroversion is that I don't immediately engage the way a lot of Fe-doms do. But I think that's more environmental than anything, I honestly believe I am a Fe-dom, it explains my character better than anything else ever could.
I really am wanting opinions on if I am Si or Ni though . . .

edit: and I do need some 'alone time'. At least from certain people. Some people are really tense all the time or difficult to connect with and that's draining. But I don't need as much 'alone time' as most introverts I know and I start to get angsty and testy if I spend more than a few hours completely isolated. Like I mean I'll spend all night in the exercise room exercising, writing, everyone else is asleep, but I have the Internet on, I'm watching Netflix and feeling a connection with those characters, if I didn't have that I'd be really unhappy and not know what to do.


----------



## fair phantom

@alittlebear I've dealt with unhealthy Fe-doms. My youth was dominated by them, so I think I'm pretty good at recognizing unhealthy Fe. I do not think yours is unhealthy—not even in the way that only hurts yourself. Even though you are exceptionally forgiving and loving, you have demonstrated on several occasions that you have a backbone that leads you to stand up for yourself and what you believe in (at least when you consider it important enough).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> (I just realized I'm miffed that I didn't get to see more of Margaery and Stannis in general this season. Boo.)
> 
> @alittlebear: what you said in that post reminds me a great deal of a similar conversation I had with an ENFJ, who feels much the same way. Much as she would like to detach from her emotional environment, she just ... can't. In a group, she automatically adjusts to their needs, expectations, desires, etc, and is socially aware of what is happening around her at all times; their motives, their feelings, their likes and dislikes, often without being told. I remember that what started our conversation was me expressing envy for the idea of being an ENFJ, because she has so much more presence than I do in a group; and she said, "Don't be, being a Fe-dom is not all it is cracked up to be."
> 
> In truth, on a mental level I am not certain I can identify with Fe-dom, even though a lot of my response to things is very Fe in and of itself. I am not, as you are, inclined to be so strident in my moral appraisals, but I'm unsure if that is simply Fe or FeNi, because I've noticed ENFJs are far more inclined to assert absolute opinions in that regard than Fe/Ne, since Ne is always open to the idea that our appraisal of the situation could be wrong, that we may miss some piece of evidence that will change our opinion. In some ways, I am so much more Fe than my ISFJ friend, and in some ways, I am so much less.
> 
> She is far more socially amenable and bubbly, but I am much more impacted by cruelty. There is a reason I identified strongly with the INFJ stereotypes, because it greatly emphasizes sensitivity toward callousness, violence, cruelty toward animals, a strong pull toward nature, etc. I am the one who carries spiders outside and moralizes that unless a creature is doing harm, there is no reason to kill it; she is the one who actually actively takes care of people. I am the one who smiles at you when I learn you're a hunter and then asks what that poor innocent animal ever did to you; she is the one who admitted to me once that she'd like to try bow hunting. I am the one who felt a little bit sick to her stomach watching "Jurassic World," because all I could think about was how sickening it is that humans have always enjoyed watching people and animals die for entertainment; the only difference between us and the ancient Romans is that now the deaths aren't real, but the creepy subtext and what it says about human nature remains the same; she loved the entire thing. I cried when they found the dead "veggie-asaures"; she didn't. I cried when Fantine sang in Les Mis; she didn't. I cried during the pilot of ALIAS; she didn't. So in some ways, I'm more emotionally open than she is, despite being reserved, but also far more logically-oriented. She proposes things that are ridiculous; I rip them apart.
> 
> In a social setting, though, she's more inclined to be outgoing, and warm, and personable, and I'm the one who can't seem to warm up and finds her sudden spontaneous put-on extroversion tiring. So ... yeah.
> 
> What is it Dorian Gray says in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?
> 
> "I'm complicated."


Oh dear, you've given me so many responsive thoughts. 

It's funny you bring up movies, particularly Les Miserables. I still claim it is one of my favorite movies (even though it triggers me, I think I'm earning it back like I have other things). I simply could not stand the solo songs. I dreamed a dream that - alright. You're sad. Your life sucks. I get that. Let's move on. (I suppose it wasn't helped by dear Hathaway being one of my least favorite representatives of Fantine... Fantine is a lot of things, but she is not any of what I felt she was made out to be there.) Same with Who Am I, and, oh dear, On My Own. 

My favorites are the group songs. At The End Of The Day is a fantastic number to me, because it is so representative of society. Society is pushing on itself, being pushed on my external forces, and in order to release that tension and distress it presses hatefully down on its vulnerable members. One Day More is glorious because the story comes together - and it's wonderful for connecting to almost any story with a wide cast (and I _love_ wide casts). And the Epilogue is one of my soul songs. 

Not sure if that has anything to do with type, but it's a thing. I like emotion, but centralized emotion set on one person brings me... too much. I get more out of widely social distress (as sad as that perhaps is), broad issues that many people face in the show/story that gives us insight into the current issues of society. 

But, yeah, beyond that, I relate to a lot of what you're telling me about your ENFJ friend. I personally despised hunting my entire childhood, and was a constant protestor of it, yet I secretly craved to go hunting so I could earn the approval of my once-favorite cousin and uncle. I also just... craved to experience it, to be allowed on their hunting sprees not to shoot (although shooting well and impressing them would be _wonderful_), but to _experience_ it. I protect small creatures as you do (I have saved the lives of so many worms and defended so many dear insects), but I also go out of my way to emotionally protect people when I am in a social position to do so. And I'm also starting to accept that subconsciously I am pretty aware of people's wants, desires, thoughts. (And of course I have the tendency to pick a side and stick with it without wavering, once I figure out where I stand.) 

But it's certainly not the best thing. I got a message a while back asking me "is there anything bad about being ENFJ?" Maybe not, but there's bad things about being human. There's my social awkwardness, there's my hyper awareness to situations, there's my obsessive desire to change the future and the insatiable urge to bring the future I want to reality. There's my bluntness, and then there's the way that I am so sweet and pleasantly optimistic that people forget me as a human and instead dress me up as a concept, a happy thought to keep in their pocket, and they act as if I am at fault when I have trouble and my ever-pleasantness fades to normal human level of pessimism and emotional neutrality. Sometimes it's nice, other times it's annoying because you've become a fluffy ball in other people's minds, a ball without substance, and that can be lightly de personalizing in its own way.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I think I developed that idea of E vs I especially when I saw someone who identified as INFJ say on a thread that she would "be a wandering person, away from people, away from society". This was different from my response, which was essentially that I _need_ people, I crave people, and living away from people and only interacting a short bit with others would be most depressing for me.
> 
> That's what I meant, I think. I could be incorrect about that facet of Introversion, but it seems to me that Introverts - especially those with a strong I preference - would be alright going a few days not interacting with people. Not a lifetime - no one could bear that, not even those who proclaim that is their greatest desire - but a few days. I also think of your questionnaire, where I believe you stated your ideal vacation (out of the choices) would be total isolation on the island. That is an idea I could never have. If I went to an island like that (if I had to, it certainly would not be my first choice), I would need to bring my entire extended family with me for it to be a worthwhile experience. I would walk on the beach alone at night perhaps, but I would still need several hours of interaction with others to be alright inside.
> 
> But I do not believe that anyone can be truly alone, and I do not think that is what my idea of Introversion includes at this time. I could be misunderstanding my own awareness though.


I do think there are some misunderstandings about introversion floating around. That said, my definition of "alone" is most likely different from yours. I'm always surprised when someone tells me they're "alone," and when I ask them about it, they explain they don't have a partner to live with and so on. To me, that's not being alone, far from it. You're alone when you have no friends or family, no support. That kind of "alone" is brutal. As for spending a few days without interacting with others, sure, but that depends on what you consider interaction. Physically alone? Being around others but not speaking to them? So on and so forth. There are different ways to feel connected to people, but then again, I'm on the far end when it comes to introversion


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom @Oswin thank you for your reassurances. That's very kind. 

But one thing that troubles me is... What is unhealthy? 

I just have a hard time considering myself not-unhealthy. I am far too people-pleasing, which I take as a result of GAD, and given that with PTSD I can be very withdrawn and at times moody and snap-ish... two opposite ends that I would consider both unhealthy. I have separated in my mind "unhealthy" from "toxic" - unhealthy is when it is not functioning as it should, and toxic is when that unhealthy is leaking out and burning others. I do not think my Fe is functioning as it should because, while I am a cushion, while I do wield Fe kindly (in most instances), I still struggle to lead. I am no typical EJ. I somehow attract attention and notice, but more from my quirky and surprising depth than from my social graces. Sometimes this is different - the other week I charmed my aunt's friend with my attentive Fe, and the adult women fawned a bit over me to my surprised enjoyment - but among peers especially I am a far cry from the ideal Extroverted Feeling Dominant. 

I mean, I suppose this could be the 9 in me... but I dunno. 

Another thing that always haunted me about identifying as Fe-Dom is I cannot imagine being the typically unhealthy and toxic ExFJ. I could never be Regina Mills. I could never be an Exclusive Clique Leader. While of course I do fail and I do bring harm to people, sometimes intentional, this is the exception rather than the rule and the thought of being malicious and seeking to hurt others as a first response is... beyond me. Something I could not do. Maybe I'm just a nice person, I suppose, but that's an odd explanation to me. 

These things established, I actually have agreed to help and do a few things with my sister. Until later!

Edit: @shinynotshiny I will try to respond more later but I do agree with you I think (especially with people defining "alone" as "not being in a relationship"... gah, why, how?)


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## Dangerose

^I struggle to see myself as ENFJ because comments like the above seem quite alien to me.
Watching Les Mis...I'm thinking, ok, let's skip past the social justice scenes, don't need to hear the cast ('cept for One Day More and Turning)...I'm just waiting for the angst. I'm a stereotypical fangirl in that On My Own is my favorite song. (cause omg Eponine is so relatable guyz). I don't like wide casts. Even Dickens makes me a little bored...I prefer more focused stories. I honestly don't care about society. People, yes, society, no. Let the world break its own head. Governments rise and fall, power shifts from one group to the other . . . whatever. It's happened before, it'll happen again, it's boring already. What matters is the enduring human soul. 

(I mean...songs like Anatevka make me cry...it's not like I don't care at all, and Fiddler on the Roof is sadder because it's not just an isolated incident, it's the story of Jewish people everywhere, and people everywhere in fact...songs like Look Down or At The End of The Day just make me roll my eyes and hit 'next track' though. IDK, it's a difference, don't know if it's enough to determine type but it's just a thing. I know I should care, but on the other hand . . . why. I'm not the one making decisions, it's not my place to worry about politics or anything. That's great for people in Parliament or Congress but it really has nothing to do with me.)


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## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Edit: @_shinynotshiny_ I will try to respond more later but I do agree with you I think (especially with people defining "alone" as "not being in a relationship"... gah, why, how?)


No worries 

And it's about being in a relationship, yes, but ultimately it comes down to having a family of your own, a partner, a spouse, someone to share your life with on a more intimate level. It's something that comes up more and more the older you get.


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## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @fair phantom @Oswin thank you for your reassurances. That's very kind.
> 
> But one thing that troubles me is... What is unhealthy?
> 
> I just have a hard time considering myself not-unhealthy. I am far too people-pleasing, which I take as a result of GAD, and given that with PTSD I can be very withdrawn and at times moody and snap-ish... two opposite ends that I would consider both unhealthy. I have separated in my mind "unhealthy" from "toxic" - unhealthy is when it is not functioning as it should, and toxic is when that unhealthy is leaking out and burning others. I do not think my Fe is functioning as it should because, while I am a cushion, while I do wield Fe kindly (in most instances), I still struggle to lead. I am no typical EJ. I somehow attract attention and notice, but more from my quirky and surprising depth than from my social graces. Sometimes this is different - the other week I charmed my aunt's friend with my attentive Fe, and the adult women fawned a bit over me to my surprised enjoyment - but among peers especially I am a far cry from the ideal Extroverted Feeling Dominant.
> 
> I mean, I suppose this could be the 9 in me... but I dunno.
> 
> Another thing that always haunted me about identifying as Fe-Dom is I cannot imagine being the typically unhealthy and toxic ExFJ. I could never be Regina Mills. I could never be an Exclusive Clique Leader. While of course I do fail and I do bring harm to people, sometimes intentional, this is the exception rather than the rule and the thought of being malicious and seeking to hurt others as a first response is... beyond me. Something I could not do. Maybe I'm just a nice person, I suppose, but that's an odd explanation to me.
> 
> These things established, I actually have agreed to help and do a few things with my sister. Until later!
> 
> Edit: @shinynotshiny I will try to respond more later but I do agree with you I think (especially with people defining "alone" as "not being in a relationship"... gah, why, how?)


Well, the way I see it, there are two types of unhealthy Fe doms, there are, as you said, the social climber, Regina Mills like character, and there's the type that devalues everyone else to expendable while seeming happy and friendly, and being completely dependent. :happy: I think your struggle to lead is actually due to your high Fe rather than conflicting with it, but that's just me.


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## fair phantom

@alittlebear

Interesting. My favourite Les Mis songs are "On My Own", "Do You Hear the People Sing?" (+the reprise in the epilogue), "One Day More", "Castle on a Cloud", "I Dreamed a Dream" and "At the End of the Day" . (These are roughly in order though I really can't choose between the first two). So I like a mix of the personal and social songs.


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## Dangerose

Sorry, I sound really heartless. It's just like...I was just complaining to my mother about how, like, the old lady I work with feels the need to worry all the time about the schedule, about the houseplants, about the cats...even though everyone takes care of this for her. It drives me crazy, I know that she has dementia and feeling in control makes people feel autonomous or whatever but I just feel like . . . you've done your worrying, now you get to stop. I don't understand why people feel the need to be in control of things that they don't control. It drives me crazy. Like why is it all over my newsfeed about this lady who was pretending to be black? Why does that matter? Why is it such a virtue to follow politics? It's just this false illusion of control, like if you are super-knowledgable about all the issues your 'raindrop-in-an-ocean' vote is going to mean more. I don't even see why it's a virtue to vote. I don't understand the economy. I don't need to understand the economy. I will trust economists to deal with the economy for me. Why should I vote on economic issues? Why should my boozy half-literate neighbor down the street vote on economic issues? Why not leave it to the people who have made this their special subject and know what will actually benefit the country, not what TV commercials or Buzzfeed articles have convinced us will benefit the country or maybe just us.

Like . . . I don't know, I don't really understand that need to control everything, even things you have no control over. Just seems...excessive. And ultimately harmful probably.


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## Dangerose

Also, I do understand people defining being 'alone' as not being in a relationship. Considering I freak out about this every day...yeah, I live with my family and that's fine and I have friends which is cool but most people want to start their own family, do 'stage 2' of life. I don't want to be an old maid. I wish I did, and I'm sure that if that happens I will find pleasure and meaning in that life, but I don't particularly love the concept of living in a house by myself (or even any sort of Golden Girls style arrangement) with cats for the rest of my life. I mean, I guess I get it, the 'romantic love is so overrated' thing, it's not like other kinds of love and friendship aren't equally important but romantic love, marriage, procreation is rather an important factor in the human life so it makes sense that it's a point of stress and even identity for a lot of people. :/

(sorry, just rambling, putting different things out there in case they help with my type or just help elucidate a point or whatever, I don't know)


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## fair phantom

@Oswin your last few posts have seemed so-last and ESFJ to me.


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## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Oswin your last few posts have seemed so-last and ESFJ to me.


I concur. :happy:


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## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> @Oswin your last few posts have seemed so-last and ESFJ to me.



I'm starting to agree.


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## Dangerose

ESFJ? Any objections?
Also, I was thinking so-last even as I was writing. sp/sx or sx/sp?


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## Dangerose

guys I'm this close to changing it but I want to make sure no one is holding back opinions on my type, make it as unanimous as possible because I don't want to change this again.
Please 'thank' this comment if you agree that I am an ESFJ, and your doubts on this matter are less than 5%.

edit: you have one hour to put in an argument against ESFJ.


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## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> guys I'm this close to changing it but I want to make sure no one is holding back opinions on my type, make it as unanimous as possible because I don't want to change this again.
> Please 'thank' this comment if you agree that I am an ESFJ, and your doubts on this matter are less than 5%.












Yeah, you're ESFJ, relying on us. :wink:


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## Dangerose

Ok) ESFJ it is) 
Now, sorry if I killed the conversation) Carry on plz)


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## Dangerose

...I killed the conversation, didn't I?


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## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> ...I killed the conversation, didn't I?


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


>


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## Pressed Flowers

Back! Until I sleep which hopefully will be soon since I have to rise early. 

I don't know that @Oswin's later comments implied that she's an ESFJ (perhaps?), but I do agree with @fair phantom that they very much show that she is SO last. I think SX would be more inclined to enjoy smaller casts where you get to know individual characters better, and to enjoy songs like On My Own and I Dreamed A Dream (and of course to relate to characters like Eponine). Like I said on the first thread we discussed a similar topic on, I think that thinking first about social issues and the impact on society is more an SO-indicator than I think it is an Fe-indicator (or Pi, for that matter). 

Aaand I'll see what else I need to catch up on ^^


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## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> No worries
> 
> And it's about being in a relationship, yes, but ultimately it comes down to having a family of your own, a partner, a spouse, someone to share your life with on a more intimate level. It's something that comes up more and more the older you get.


Instincts could just be in my head at mp, but this seems SP? But maybe that's the 6 fix on your core. This just wouldn't be my first thought, personally. To me being alone is having no love, having no sympathy, having no one to reach out to. I can imagine disconnecting from everyone I know now, getting up and starting a new life and paving new connections. I could be alone away from everyone I know, but I still wouldn't be alone because I would have people who I could and would get to know? 

(I was just thinking, Enneagram wise.) 

That aside, I do agree. I personally do not understand how people are so obsessed with having a relationship, feeling they cannot be complete without it. I am my own individual person, I am not half of a container that needs another person to close me up. I am free-standing. Friends provide enough to keep me from being entirely "alone". 

As for @Oswin expressing her thoughts that being alone / not in a relationship is somewhat distressful, I think that has to do with SP too... Shinynotshiny, have you considered SP-first for yourself? I can see some SX indicators, but some things seem SP about you to me. (Especially in this conversation, but I think that your Introversion could be mixing with what I perceive as your SP, or it could just be one of the other. I'm not sure. It's something to consider though, and a topic I think that is neutral to discuss.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> @alittlebear
> 
> Interesting. My favourite Les Mis songs are "On My Own", "Do You Hear the People Sing?" (+the reprise in the epilogue), "One Day More", "Castle on a Cloud", "I Dreamed a Dream" and "At the End of the Day" . (These are roughly in order though I really can't choose between the first two). So I like a mix of the personal and social songs.


I think what you identify as now could explain that.  SO/SX, a mix of the personal and the social, and an INxx at that, which I think is in some ways double the romantic introversion in some respects (especially if you add a P in there... yeesh.) 

And I don't know if I was too fair. I love Cosette's songs.  I guess it's like, I love the Cosette songs (because I love Cosette) and then j love the social songs, you know? If that makes sense. 

And @Oswin I hate to say this, but I cannot relate much to your frustration with people who want to control everything but can't... because I do that too. It's not really something I can discuss because it's definitely a GAD thing and beyond my control at this moment, but... To me it's like... I discussed this with my dad yesterday too. He says, "If it's beyond your control, don't worry about it," but I think, "If you have your mindset, you're going to think you are powerless when you are not and miss out." I'm trying to think of a situation where I would have no power and worrying would be worthless and I'm having a hard time. I suppose deaths are that way, but even then you can pray and visit the person and ask doctors what you can do to help. There is always _something_ you can do, it seems. 

And... Well, in the case of the woman you're helping out... I imagine that she has even less control over her capacity for worrying than I do, if she's anything like the many older people in my family who I know that have had severe memory problems. Even my grandfather, who is not suffering from memory problems, is like this in that he's stuck in his ways. And he's also going to help out in whatever way he can, even if it is detrimental to him. Perhaps this is illogical, but... It's what he does, and it's one of his problems in life now but also one of his greatest joys (to my understanding). 

Sorry... I know you don't get too frustrated with her - I can't see you outwardly doing that - but... It's something I relate to and something I understand more elderly people have a very hard time not doing.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Instincts could just be in my head at mp, but this seems SP? But maybe that's the 6 fix on your core. This just wouldn't be my first thought, personally. To me being alone is having no love, having no sympathy, having no one to reach out to. I can imagine disconnecting from everyone I know now, getting up and starting a new life and paving new connections. I could be alone away from everyone I know, but I still wouldn't be alone because I would have people who I could and would get to know?
> 
> (I was just thinking, Enneagram wise.)
> 
> That aside, I do agree. I personally do not understand how people are so obsessed with having a relationship, feeling they cannot be complete without it. I am my own individual person, I am not half of a container that needs another person to close me up. I am free-standing. Friends provide enough to keep me from being entirely "alone".
> 
> As for @Oswin expressing her thoughts that being alone / not in a relationship is somewhat distressful, I think that has to do with SP too... Shinynotshiny, have you considered SP-first for yourself? I can see some SX indicators, but some things seem SP about you to me. (Especially in this conversation, but I think that your Introversion could be mixing with what I perceive as your SP, or it could just be one of the other. I'm not sure. It's something to consider though, and a topic I think that is neutral to discuss.)


Do you think it is an SP thing then? Because I haven't wanted to mention it because it seems weird, but that's a fairly consistent driving force in my life. I mean...I wouldn't say I feel 'incomplete' not being in a relationship but I do feel like someone's other half, I don't expect to marry honestly but one of my goals is to be beautiful/intelligent/well-read/whatever enough that whoever I loved will have won the love of a worthy person (sorry, that sounds terribly cheesy but I'm a terribly cheesy person). Like, I honestly don't believe my personality will ever be good enough that I would subject someone I cared about to being married to me, but my goal is to be a person who is for lack of a better phrase 'marriageable' 

...which sounds terrible, sorry, it's just the way I think. Is that SP? SP first? I kinda hate the idea of SP, it feels so...well, it doesn't sound great tbh 'I want to preserve myself' but is the desire for marriage/starting a family SP? I would have thought it was just a human thing but I can see it being that. Like, sorry, it's sort of weird to say these things but I mostly just want to get married and have children? And I always have, when I was 8 I was trying to convince my next-door neighbor to build a house with me and I tricked him into an engagement)) I mean, I don't really know what the point of life is if you don't marry and have kids, like, I know there is a point but _instinctive_ly I feel like there isn't.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I think what you identify as now could explain that.  SO/SX, a mix of the personal and the social, and an INxx at that, which I think is in some ways double the romantic introversion in some respects (especially if you add a P in there... yeesh.)
> 
> And I don't know if I was too fair. I love Cosette's songs.  I guess it's like, I love the Cosette songs (because I love Cosette) and then j love the social songs, you know? If that makes sense.
> 
> And @Oswin I hate to say this, but I cannot relate much to your frustration with people who want to control everything but can't... because I do that too. It's not really something I can discuss because it's definitely a GAD thing and beyond my control at this moment, but... To me it's like... I discussed this with my dad yesterday too. He says, "If it's beyond your control, don't worry about it," but I think, "If you have your mindset, you're going to think you are powerless when you are not and miss out." I'm trying to think of a situation where I would have no power and worrying would be worthless and I'm having a hard time. I suppose deaths are that way, but even then you can pray and visit the person and ask doctors what you can do to help. There is always _something_ you can do, it seems.
> 
> And... Well, in the case of the woman you're helping out... I imagine that she has even less control over her capacity for worrying than I do, if she's anything like the many older people in my family who I know that have had severe memory problems. Even my grandfather, who is not suffering from memory problems, is like this in that he's stuck in his ways. And he's also going to help out in whatever way he can, even if it is detrimental to him. Perhaps this is illogical, but... It's what he does, and it's one of his problems in life now but also one of his greatest joys (to my understanding).
> 
> Sorry... I know you don't get too frustrated with her - I can't see you outwardly doing that - but... It's something I relate to and something I understand more elderly people have a very hard time not doing.


Please feel free to disagree with me))
(For the record I am externally very patient).
And I understand of course that she cannot control this, and that it's something she can hold onto, which does not mean it does not drive me crazy. It's not just this though -- it's like everyone. I just hate it when people are worrying so much, like, are we going to have enough food on the train? You know what, if we don't have enough food, we can go to the restaurant car. Or we can deal with being a little hungry. 99% of all things work themselves out. 99% of things are actually more fun when things don't go 100% according to plan. So I really don't see the point in worrying about them.

On the other side, about the 'you can always' help...I don't know if that's true. I've been in volunteer places where I felt of use, where I talked to the people and felt like I'd really brightened their day, or done some work that actually needed to be done...but half the time there's 5 people doing work that 1 person could probably do more easily. So I'm standing there thinking, "I would actually be being more helpful if I wasn't trying to do anything". I feel like this happens a LOT in life. And from my side...if I'm doing something, like if I'm cooking a big meal . . . there might be a lot of things to juggle but if someone else is in the kitchen 'helping' me it just makes it worse from my perspective. So . . . I'm not sure. Depends on the situation of course but . . . 'too many cooks in the kitchen' is a real phenomenon, and I see it happening all the time.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Do you think it is an SP thing then? Because I haven't wanted to mention it because it seems weird, but that's a fairly consistent driving force in my life. I mean...I wouldn't say I feel 'incomplete' not being in a relationship but I do feel like someone's other half, I don't expect to marry honestly but one of my goals is to be beautiful/intelligent/well-read/whatever enough that whoever I loved will have won the love of a worthy person (sorry, that sounds terribly cheesy but I'm a terribly cheesy person). Like, I honestly don't believe my personality will ever be good enough that I would subject someone I cared about to being married to me, but my goal is to be a person who is for lack of a better phrase 'marriageable'
> 
> ...which sounds terrible, sorry, it's just the way I think. Is that SP? SP first? I kinda hate the idea of SP, it feels so...well, it doesn't sound great tbh 'I want to preserve myself' but is the desire for marriage/starting a family SP? I would have thought it was just a human thing but I can see it being that. Like, sorry, it's sort of weird to say these things but I mostly just want to get married and have children? And I always have, when I was 8 I was trying to convince my next-door neighbor to build a house with me and I tricked him into an engagement)) I mean, I don't really know what the point of life is if you don't marry and have kids, like, I know there is a point but _instinctive_ly I feel like there isn't.


Oh no, I was saying that @shinynotshiny's post seemed SP to me because it was seeing "aloneness" as losing support networks, family, friends. It could also be SO (with a few adjustments), but I think SP would be more likely given other things Shiny has said, and that she presently identities as SO-last. What I was mainly thinking was that what she said about not needing a relationship, about not being in a relationship =/= alone, seemed very non-SX. 

Which would contrast with you, who I think would be very SX. This post just seems more and more SX ^^

(I do think there are a lot of misunderstandings about SP though. I think it's more magical than a lot of descriptions and understandings give it credit for. I see it as somewhat self-reliance. Knowledgable seeking of protection, of oneself but also of others. I'm not speaking knowledgably but I think it is a lot more than how it is too often seen, but... Eh, I'm not the best person to speak to this as I'm not an Enneagram expert by any stretch.) 

But... Yes, what you're saying sounds very SX to me. Feeling as if you need another half, feeling the need for marriage... very SX. Reminds me a lot of what @TelepathicGoose said on her Enneagram thread. She said something like she would rather have a soul mate than change the world and make it a radically better place for people, and I went... huh? How? That's a thing, where people would want to have a relationship over helping society? Me and my SO instinct /insert eye roll emoji here/ It seems alien to me, but then again, that's me. 

And... Oswin, I know this probably can't help much because it's hard to change certain things, but... That's so untrue. You are a lovely person, and very much deserving of a relationship. When you do find someone that is right for you, they will be a very fortunate person. Maybe your want to be intelligent is just an SX thing, but I think that your feeling of unworthiness is something very untrue that I hope you find a different understanding of as soon as you are able.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Please feel free to disagree with me))
> (For the record I am externally very patient).
> And I understand of course that she cannot control this, and that it's something she can hold onto, which does not mean it does not drive me crazy. It's not just this though -- it's like everyone. I just hate it when people are worrying so much, like, are we going to have enough food on the train? You know what, if we don't have enough food, we can go to the restaurant car. Or we can deal with being a little hungry. 99% of all things work themselves out. 99% of things are actually more fun when things don't go 100% according to plan. So I really don't see the point in worrying about them.
> 
> On the other side, about the 'you can always' help...I don't know if that's true. I've been in volunteer places where I felt of use, where I talked to the people and felt like I'd really brightened their day, or done some work that actually needed to be done...but half the time there's 5 people doing work that 1 person could probably do more easily. So I'm standing there thinking, "I would actually be being more helpful if I wasn't trying to do anything". I feel like this happens a LOT in life. And from my side...if I'm doing something, like if I'm cooking a big meal . . . there might be a lot of things to juggle but if someone else is in the kitchen 'helping' me it just makes it worse from my perspective. So . . . I'm not sure. Depends on the situation of course but . . . 'too many cooks in the kitchen' is a real phenomenon, and I see it happening all the time.



Oh... Hmm. I mean, I get that in volunteer places. In everyday situations, I understand not worrying, because it won't help. (And it's not worth it -- the dishes are going to get done, everyone take a deep breath and stop sweating the small stuff, I get that.) 

But I mean, like, homelessness... No, I cannot solve homelessness, but I can help as much as I care if that is my passion. I can donate regularly to the best charity that I know will get the most done to help. I can volunteer every weekend at the soup kitchen. I can personally donate items from myself, and I can always drop things in the shopping cart at church for the soup kitchen. I think these same principals apply to most every big thing. I mean, my mom is stressed now about those guys who escaped from jail... while that's pretty irrational and I think it's stupid of her to worry about that, she could still be proactive and lock our doors and keep her eyes out for suspicious behavior. She can't do much, but she can do something. 

In short term examples I can think of how worrying isn't very helpful (like when volunteering or cleaning up), but when it comes to big issues... There's something we all can do if we think it is worth it enough.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Oh no, I was saying that @shinynotshiny's post seemed SP to me because it was seeing "aloneness" as losing support networks, family, friends. It could also be SO (with a few adjustments), but I think SP would be more likely given other things Shiny has said, and that she presently identities as SO-last. What I was mainly thinking was that what she said about not needing a relationship, about not being in a relationship =/= alone, seemed very non-SX.
> 
> Which would contrast with you, who I think would be very SX. This post just seems more and more SX ^^
> 
> (I do think there are a lot of misunderstandings about SP though. I think it's more magical than a lot of descriptions and understandings give it credit for. I see it as somewhat self-reliance. Knowledgable seeking of protection, of oneself but also of others. I'm not speaking knowledgably but I think it is a lot more than how it is too often seen, but... Eh, I'm not the best person to speak to this as I'm not an Enneagram expert by any stretch.)
> 
> But... Yes, what you're saying sounds very SX to me. Feeling as if you need another half, feeling the need for marriage... very SX. Reminds me a lot of what @TelepathicGoose said on her Enneagram thread. She said something like she would rather have a soul mate than change the world and make it a radically better place for people, and I went... huh? How? That's a thing, where people would want to have a relationship over helping society? Me and my SO instinct /insert eye roll emoji here/ It seems alien to me, but then again, that's me.
> 
> And... Oswin, I know this probably can't help much because it's hard to change certain things, but... That's so untrue. You are a lovely person, and very much deserving of a relationship. When you do find someone that is right for you, they will be a very fortunate person. Maybe your want to be intelligent is just an SX thing, but I think that your feeling of unworthiness is something very untrue that I hope you find a different understanding of as soon as you are able.


That makes, sense, actually, thanks for clarifying) And thank you for your kind words as well)
But is the fact that I seem so concerned about sx things a sign I'm sp/sx and that I just do sp naturally? Or does your chief factor still come first?
Because honestly I don't think my sp instinct is very good either, I'm the sort of person who forgets to take medicine and refuses to see doctors and forgets to save money and walks around big cities with her hand covered in blood and everyone gives her weird looks and she thinks it's because she looks hot or something and doesn't notice for hours and such.
which has happened multiple times.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> That makes, sense, actually, thanks for clarifying) And thank you for your kind words as well)
> But is the fact that I seem so concerned about sx things a sign I'm sp/sx and that I just do sp naturally? Or does your chief factor still come first?
> Because honestly I don't think my sp instinct is very good either, I'm the sort of person who forgets to take medicine and refuses to see doctors and forgets to save money and walks around big cities with her hand covered in blood and everyone gives her weird looks and she thinks it's because she looks hot or something and doesn't notice for hours and such.
> which has happened multiple times.


I can see SX/SP or SX/SO. I'm not sure if primarily wanting a family is SX or SP or Si, but it doesn't seem very SO to me and I think it's more than SX. I don't think your extra SX indicates primary SP though, no ^^


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Oh... Hmm. I mean, I get that in volunteer places. In everyday situations, I understand not worrying, because it won't help. (And it's not worth it -- the dishes are going to get done, everyone take a deep breath and stop sweating the small stuff, I get that.)
> 
> But I mean, like, homelessness... No, I cannot solve homelessness, but I can help as much as I care if that is my passion. I can donate regularly to the best charity that I know will get the most done to help. I can volunteer every weekend at the soup kitchen. I can personally donate items from myself, and I can always drop things in the shopping cart at church for the soup kitchen. I think these same principals apply to most every big thing. I mean, my mom is stressed now about those guys who escaped from jail... while that's pretty irrational and I think it's stupid of her to worry about that, she could still be proactive and lock our doors and keep her eyes out for suspicious behavior. She can't do much, but she can do something.
> 
> In short term examples I can think of how worrying isn't very helpful (like when volunteering or cleaning up), but when it comes to big issues... There's something we all can do if we think it is worth it enough.


Oh, but I agree)
My guilt about not helping the homeless has reached a sort of climax. I wish all the volunteer organizations would get together and figure out how best to spend resources. I feel like it would be such an easy problem to solve honestly if we just had a little more . . . organization. But, yeah, I need to figure out where my time and money will be of most use. And start working on that. Thank you for reminding me.
But yeah, it always helps to give your mite. If everyone gave their mite we wouldn't even have a problem.


----------



## ElliCat

hoopla said:


> You are beautiful!
> 
> I wanted to know what you looked like so badly. I imagined Fair Phantom would have an Elfin/pixie appearance and she does.
> 
> I imagined you would have a softer look to you. Nothing fierce, but a bit more of an edge than I imagined. I was imagining ethereal, old fashioned (not necessarily beliefs, but a more subdued lifestyle and appearance) librarian. You are more like a liberal hipster librarian in an underground city that has created a science corner for the very children who loved the skeletal and solar systems. Each book shelf is decorated with bones or models of the planets. You're now trying to gain approval to create a taxidermy shelf.... not without protest.


Thank you!! :ball:

That's... really flattering. I aspire to be the eccentric aunt when I grow up. If I grow up.



SugarPlum said:


> Again, just for fun. How accurate is this for you guys? I found it interesting, because it fits my siblings and I well. But not my kids...
> https://m.facebook.com/jac.elizabet...otal_comments=1&ref=m_notif¬if_t=feed_comment


Yeah that's not that accurate for me. My younger sister (technically middle child, but much older than the youngest siblings) has always been more dominant than me. I was relatively responsible and a bit of an adult pleaser though. She definitely had the whole "my life is so unfair" middle child syndrome going on. She's closer to the last child personality and I guess she really was the last child, for a while.

The youngest ones are kind of opposite to each other. Introverted and quiet and still trying to figure themselves out vs. extroverted and ambitious and competitive.



alittlebear said:


> Regarding the birth order thing, I have always been a natural middle child. When my older cousin stayed with us for a year, everything was perfect. Mediating and guiding one sibling while looking up to another is my natural role. I am a bit like the classic older sibling in that I am responsible, high-achieving, adult-pleasing, and I tend to stick to the rules, but people only view me as a leader when I have external authority over them. I'm more the peacemaker, soft, very secretive, while I have the last child trait of being very private and creative. As for my much younger sister, she is a mix between the youngest child traits and the oldest child traits. Very bossy, authoritarian, but she is competitive, _sometimes_ risk-taking, and she is very outgoing.


Oh this sounds familiar! I always wanted an older sibling.



fair phantom said:


> :glee: i've been one for a few days. TBH I'm just trying it out. See if it fits. @arkigos and @hoopla proposed it as a possibility and I think some other people.
> 
> ETA: Oh yes @tine also detected Ti and Fe in my questionnaire.


I don't know if this is relevant at all but I was with an INFP friend yesterday and she said a couple of things that made me go, "oh shit maybe she is Ti-Fe after all." She then followed it up with a stream of Fi but yeah... I can see how they come across as similar.

How does INTP feel for you anyway?



alittlebear said:


> But it's certainly not the best thing. I got a message a while back asking me "is there anything bad about being ENFJ?" Maybe not, but there's bad things about being human.


I like this. I think it applies to all the types. It's not that being certain types suck more than being others... it's the "being human" part that makes it all complicated. 



alittlebear said:


> I do not think my Fe is functioning as it should because, while I am a cushion, while I do wield Fe kindly (in most instances), I still struggle to lead. I am no typical EJ. I somehow attract attention and notice, but more from my quirky and surprising depth than from my social graces. Sometimes this is different - the other week I charmed my aunt's friend with my attentive Fe, and the adult women fawned a bit over me to my surprised enjoyment - but among peers especially I am a far cry from the ideal Extroverted Feeling Dominant.


I wonder if that will come with age and more confidence, though. If my sister truly is ESFJ (which I have little reason to doubt at this stage), she's got a while to go before she gets to our mother's way of using Fe. 

Being typical is overrated. Embrace the snowflakery!

@Oswin your middle instinct is more natural and balanced, actually. Your first one is what you focus the most on, often to the point of being obsessive over it. Can be positive or negative attention. So SP-first could be being really good at taking care of your own needs, or it could be a complete inability to do so coupled with an obsession over how you fail so badly at it.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I think you use Fi way more than you realize. It may look different from the Fi of @ElliCat or @laurie17 but in part I think that is because you resist the idea of it, so you don't actively develop it. Also the fact that it is paired with Se.
> 
> If it were possible to have your Te higher than Fi _and_ your Se higher than Ni (say it could go: Se-Te-Fi-Ni), I would consider it, but I can't see your Ni being higher than Se. At least not right now. I'm going to need more Ni evidence to be convinced of ENTJ, and I don't see how INTJ could be possible. Bullrushing into things is anti-NTJ to my knowledge—it certainly goes against the MO of INTJ.


I am curious where you guys see Fi, though you are right in that I resist Fi in a way. Do I have Fi-Se in the way @Curiphant does? :happy:

Well, I could be an ENTJ in a Te-Se loop? That's certainly possible. :wink:


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> shinynotshiny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh stop. What else could you be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If @Greyhart isn't an ENTP, nothing will make sense anymore. The earth will revolve around the moon. Apples will fall upwards. Sound will move faster than light. California will experience rain for forty days and forty nights.
Click to expand...

I literally just snort-giggled. Seriously though. And I live in Cali, so that would be the day.


----------



## Dangerose

ElliCat said:


> @Oswin your middle instinct is more natural and balanced, actually. Your first one is what you focus the most on, often to the point of being obsessive over it. Can be positive or negative attention. So SP-first could be being really good at taking care of your own needs, or it could be a complete inability to do so coupled with an obsession over how you fail so badly at it.


ok, thanks for clearing that up) I'm going to go with sx/sp then because so seems like more work than I signed up for. 
But mostly I'm just pure sex basically, which I'm ok with


----------



## Immolate

@alittlebear Oh Bear, if I could openly and properly express my feelings on romantic love.



It's very personal, really. My not needing a relationship stems a lot from my lack of faith in society and in others. The intensity is there, I just refuse to direct it at anyone. I'd rather transform it into other passions. I've sacrificed too much in the past.



Not sure if that makes sense. I just woke up in the middle of night and I'm waiting for sleep again 

[Edit] no no @Barakiel. Where is the Te?


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Curiphant said:
> 
> 
> 
> aHEM
> 
> ESFJ
> 
> 
> 
> Considered it.
> 
> Then I went to see "Jurassic World" on Sunday, against my better judgment (it being a weekend) and after two and a half hours in a packed theater, I wasn't even sociable with my friends at lunch. They wanted to go walk around the shopping complex. I mumbled excuses and ran for the car, because I couldn't _wait_ to get home and stay there. Alone. Honestly, the older I get, the more of a hermit I become. It's sad. I look for excuses not to go places or see people.
Click to expand...

I went to Starbuck s with my sister for 3 hours today (wedding talk), and I was about to die. Get. me. Home!

I barely leave the house, and I'm not proud of it. When I do, it is great and I am so glad I did! I have all this energy and feel great... for about 2 hours... then I feel like I haven't seen my home in ages and I wanna go back. Especially when dealing with people I dont know. Strangers etc. Ugh. I'll get out for awhile when its with a cpl close people, but yeah. Thanks but no thanks.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> @alittlebear Oh Bear, if I could openly and properly express my feelings on romantic love.
> 
> 
> 
> It's very personal, really. My not needing a relationship stems a lot from my lack of faith in society and in others. The intensity is there, I just refuse to direct it at anyone. I'd rather transform it into other passions. I've sacrificed too much in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if that makes sense. I just woke up in the middle of night and I'm waiting for sleep again
> 
> [Edit] no no @Barakiel. Where is the Te?


Excuse me, have you read the majority of my controversial posts on here? :wink:

As for romantic love, well, I've had two significant others, neither of them permanent, and a fling with a friend, which thankfully had our friendship come out unscathed. :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Well, I could be an ENTJ in a Te-Se loop? That's certainly possible. :wink:












Anything's possible I suppose.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Excuse me, have you read the majority of my controversial posts on here? :wink:



You consider that Te because of your bluntness?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> You consider that Te because of your bluntness?


Well, I mainly consider it Te because unlike @alittlebear and @Oswin's Fe moralizing and martyrship, it seems a lot more pragmatic and to what serves me. Like, for instance, I don't want to do charity work simply because, well, I can't see a noticeable change from it. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, I mainly consider it Te because unlike @alittlebear and @Oswin's Fe moralizing and martyrship, it seems a lot more pragmatic and to what serves me. Like, for instance, I don't want to do charity work simply because, well, I can't see a noticeable change from it. :happy:



Se?


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Well, I mainly consider it Te because unlike @alittlebear and @Oswin's Fe moralizing and martyrship, it seems a lot more pragmatic and to what serves me. Like, for instance, I don't want to do charity work simply because, well, I can't see a noticeable change from it. :happy:


am I moralizing and martyry? 

Honestly, I don't think you're Je dom. You might have an inferior Te thing going on which is tripping you up, but I would not support a Te-dom or even aux typing of you.
Whatever your functions you strike me as almost definitely JiPe or PeJi.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Se?


Possibly, but it seems more that I'm growing into my Se recently, rather than having it since younger. I don't know, this is the main confusion with my type.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Possibly, but it seems more that I'm growing into my Se recently, rather than having it since younger. I don't know, this is the main confusion with my type.



If you are Te then I am a panda.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> am I moralizing and martyry?
> 
> Honestly, I don't think you're Je dom. You might have an inferior Te thing going on which is tripping you up, but I would not support a Te-dom or even aux typing of you.
> Whatever your functions you strike me as almost definitely JiPe or PeJi.


Well, your moralizing is confused by the apparent inefficiency of it all, perhaps inferior Ti? :wink:

What do Je doms look like? :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> If you are Te then I am a panda.


Oh, you are? Ok then, good to know. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh, you are? Ok then, good to know. :wink:



My panda would sit on you and crush you, then snack on bamboo.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Well, your moralizing is confused by the apparent inefficiency of it all, perhaps inferior Ti? :wink:
> 
> What do Je doms look like? :happy:


Thanks 

Ok, if you want to be a Te-dom you have to show some evidence)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> My panda would sit on you and crush you, then snack on bamboo.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


>



My sweet panda.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Thanks
> 
> Ok, if you want to be a Te-dom you have to show some evidence)


Oh no, I don't want to be one, I just have this itching suspicion that I am one, since I didn't display much Se when I was younger, as in below the age of 13. So perhaps it's not one of my top 2. :wink: Well, @shinynotshiny, how do you use your Te?


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> Btw sorry for being a stick in the mud lol


You made a good point (or at least you did to me)

It takes a leap of faith to assume the Bible is correct and God is there. You can reason a lot of it out but some things you can't and that takes faith.


----------



## Bugs

alittlebear said:


> Very true about Christianity. My faith was developed because I questioned. If something didn't make sense, I asked why it didn't make sense, and I saw if the Bible could explain it. It always could. Perhaps that makes me sound like a delusional brainwashed monkey, but... I don't think so. I've always been a very curious and critical, ethically aware person. I asked a lot of questions, and I emerged with more answers than I had hoped for.
> 
> And... You are worth something, Barakiel. I'm sorry no one ever told you that, but... You certainly are. You are a person with a universe inside of you, with so much power to do so many things, to make your dreams (whatever they may be) real, to help the world, to make your part of it brighter, to find joy within yourself and brighten yourself. I dearly hope that you find a way to see your own worth. It's there. I know saying that probably doesn't help, but... I hope something comes along to effectively teach you that you are worth everything.


Again I hate to sound like the skeptical jerk in the room but it seems reasonable to think if something is evidently true then Faith is totally not required.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> A fair amount of Christians, and my own conclusions and/or assumptions about the faith in question. That, and because Christians get really annoyed at me when I find holes and poke them with toothpicks. :wink:
> 
> Though, question, should passions really be something you force yourself to do because it's morally right, or should they be something you enjoy? @alittlebear, this question is for you too, since I consider you the crusader of the group we have here. :laughing:


Well in the defense of the Christians in your life, no one is going to react well if you "poke at with toothpicks" something that you know to be very important to them. If you want to learn, you must be respectful and open-minded. Not doing that will only make you see what you want to see - that the thing you are already disrespecting and looking at with a closed mind is "stupid" - and cause a rift between you and other people. All around bad and in effective way to approach things. It's okay to pla devils advocate sometimes, but never when it is something that people hold dear. That's just going to hurt, and it's not good. 

About passions, I'm not quite sure what you're saying? I think true passions go both ways - they help people, they're the right thing to do, and your soul sings because you are doing what you are meant to do, and this makes you joyful. If those things aren't being met, one has not found their passion, I do not think


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> First of all, Christianity isn't about removing all doubt, it's about continually choosing faith, which is maybe what I was getting at in my above post but that's immaterial atm
> 
> I honestly think you need to turn your viewpoint around. 'I listen to music to get rid of the empty feeling'...fair enough, I do too at times, hate the feeling of silence or just being...there, but do you know what? Music is awesome. I mean, truly, it is an art form that has a unique capacity for inspiring awe. So I mean...that's special, that's it's own thing, it doesn't have to be just 'filling the void', concentrate on the good aspects of it. That's not all it is, anyways. Let go of the self-pity, it just doesn't help. Try...doing something new each day. Start with music. Do you listen to opera? Have you given opera a chance? Well, listen to the top hits of Verdi. If it doesn't speak to you, move on. Exercise your Se. I think you're looking at things from the wrong direction


Well, it seems like it to me, this is simply because I don't like not having control of my own life, and due to my disability, that's a moot point now. 

Oh no, I like listening to music in its own right, it's just... when you do it for so long, and then you stop, your mind sounds empty, nothing's rolling through there, keeping you moving. Well, as far as letting go of the self pity, admission is the first step to that, so they say. :wink: No, I haven't listened to opera at all, though it seems like the same as theatre, except with a lot more singing. Don't think I'd like it. And of course I'm looking at things from the wrong direction, I just don't know how to look anywhere else.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Bugs said:


> Again I hate to sound like the skeptical jerk in the room but it seems reasonable to think if something is evidently true then Faith is totally not required.


You're one of those who does not understand faith and religion, so looking at it from the outside, you cannot comprehend it. (Correct me if I'm wrong and you adhere to a religion, but I highly doubt that's the case.) You are thinking of this clinically, scientifically. Faith is not reason. Faith has no reason. I cannot speak for all people with faith, but for me that is not the case. I have always believed in God, and this has allowed me to see Him in the small things in the world. By my not asking for Him to show Himself, He has made Himself known to me. These things have shown me without a doubt that He is there. I think that faith probably is necessary to understand how God is reasonable, how the universe is reasonable, how He is the center and that all makes sense... but it is there. Faith and reason do mix. Faith is not inherently illogical. It's just a jump that allows us to see the truths of the universe more clearly with knowledge of God. 

These things will be hard for you to understand as someone who does not see it. And I admit that I do not know how to speak to help you see it. I do not. But what you are saying, what people say - that faith and reason cannot coexist - is not the case.


----------



## Dangerose

(continuing comment, not sure if it has anything to do with anything current in the thread but *someone* brought up religion so now I want to say my thing)
Which is that the other month or so, at my work (old lady Alzheimer's) I was waiting for her in another room, and feeling really frustrated and impatient with her, as one does with old people with dementia at times, and then I was looking at the picture of her husband and I felt that he was telling me (not in a supernatural way just in a normal way) like "You have no idea how much I love this woman, how wonderful she was, I can't be there to take care of her now but please do that for me" and...it really struck me. And then my eye happened to stray from the portrait of her husband to an image of Jesus and I realized like...that's the exact same thing. That's what Jesus feels for each and every person. He loves everyone so much, more even than a husband loves his wife, in a personal, intimate, ultimate way, so that He died for each and every one of us (not just 'everyone') and we can't see that necessarily, we don't see what God sees in other people all the time, and especially I think in ourselves, but that love really exists and we need to take care of each other.

I guess I could have told that story without the God element and made it more relatable, and it still doesn't relate to Barakiel's thing directly, it's just what I was thinking about, and it was such a realization for me, that idea has become really central to my understanding of my faith. Which...is something that it's hard to explain what it's not, I don't ever know how to defend it, but maybe it's better to just say what it is. I don't know, I'm really tired so just kinda talking


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Well in the defense of the Christians in your life, no one is going to react well if you "poke at with toothpicks" something that you know to be very important to them. If you want to learn, you must be respectful and open-minded. Not doing that will only make you see what you want to see - that the thing you are already disrespecting and looking at with a closed mind is "stupid" - and cause a rift between you and other people. All around bad and in effective way to approach things. It's okay to pla devils advocate sometimes, but never when it is something that people hold dear. That's just going to hurt, and it's not good.
> 
> About passions, I'm not quite sure what you're saying? I think true passions go both ways - they help people, they're the right thing to do, and your soul sings because you are doing what you are meant to do, and this makes you joyful. If those things aren't being met, one has not found their passion, I do not think


I understand, I really do, but it's the only way I can feel comfortable, if all the flaws of the system are laid bare. If they're not, and I'm treating these flaws like they're hidden technicalities never to be spoken of in polite company, then they're just going to root into my mind and make me doubt even more. For my money, addressing the flaws bluntly and openly seems like the better alternative. I'm still not as antagonistic as some athiests (oh man, the stories I could tell you. :wink: ), but I don't automatically think Christianity is stupid, not even now.

No no no, I know what you're saying is coming from your Fe, but when you say, and anyone says, _the right thing to do_, alarm bells go off in my head, there is no strictly right thing to do. What I meant, was that what if a person doesn't enjoy the fact that they provide to charity, shelter orphans and all around lead a good life, is that really meaning? And what if what that person does enjoy is considered antagonistic and unambitious, if you're hurting/not affecting people's lives at all, is that meaning?


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> And... You are worth something, Barakiel. I'm sorry no one ever told you that, but... You certainly are. You are a person with a universe inside of you, with so much power to do so many things, to make your dreams (whatever they may be) real, to help the world, to make your part of it brighter, to find joy within yourself and brighten yourself. I dearly hope that you find a way to see your own worth. It's there. I know saying that probably doesn't help, but... I hope something comes along to effectively teach you that you are worth everything.


Thank you, really, it's quite nice of you to say that. :happy:


----------



## orbit

Religious talk makes me feel uncomfortable but it's necessary because I need to acclimate and understand other people's viewpoints ><


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> Religious talk makes me feel uncomfortable but it's necessary because I need to acclimate and understand other people's viewpoints ><


sorry for introducing the subject.
But it @Bugs me to see how people perceive what I believe which is . . . not accurate.
To me faith isn't about choosing some facts over others, it's about choosing truth over fact.
But if your faith can be knocked down by facts it's not really faith at all.
And it's not...choosing a lie, it's the opposite, it's . . . really synonymous with courage in my personal dictionary, it's . . . so hard to describe but it's not any sort of 'pretending' or 'ignoring'...those are the things that get in the way of faith.
I'll think of a snappy way to explain it the moment my computer dies


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Well, it seems like it to me, this is simply because I don't like not having control of my own life, and due to my disability, that's a moot point now.
> 
> Oh no, I like listening to music in its own right, it's just... when you do it for so long, and then you stop, your mind sounds empty, nothing's rolling through there, keeping you moving. Well, as far as letting go of the self pity, admission is the first step to that, so they say. :wink: No, I haven't listened to opera at all, though it seems like the same as theatre, except with a lot more singing. Don't think I'd like it. And of course I'm looking at things from the wrong direction, I just don't know how to look anywhere else.


Well, you can just listen to the music)) It's quite nice, most people don't give it a chance, but everyone should


----------



## Dangerose

k sorry I started going all religious and then I started pushing opera I'm not trying to be everyone's grandma sorry
hope I did not kill the conversation again


----------



## Immolate

I haven't kept up with the discussion, but I saw a statement like "you don't understand faith and religion." Maybe it's true, but these things are very personal, and how can anyone define another person's faith? It's theirs, or maybe it isn't, because they have no faith. Both are fine.


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> k sorry I started going all religious and then I started pushing opera I'm not trying to be everyone's grandma sorry
> hope I did not kill the conversation again


Oh don't feel bad, please. n.n It's important to respect and understand eachother's beliefs

I can kind of get why religion is so important. It creates so much meaning and it advocates for such significance and feelings and I don't think it's totally illogical 

I might become religious later in life, when I'm more mature, just to see if it fits but at the moment, I don't particularly want to make revolutionary value changes when I'm still developing.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I haven't kept up with the discussion, but I saw a statement like "you don't understand faith and religion." Maybe it's true, but these things are very personal, and how can anyone define another person's faith? It's theirs, or maybe it isn't, because they have no faith. Both are fine.


I agree with this. ^^ 

Just a side note, I think people without religion can still have faith. Just a different kind of faith as always


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> I understand, I really do, but it's the only way I can feel comfortable, if all the flaws of the system are laid bare. If they're not, and I'm treating these flaws like they're hidden technicalities never to be spoken of in polite company, then they're just going to root into my mind and make me doubt even more. For my money, addressing the flaws bluntly and openly seems like the better alternative. I'm still not as antagonistic as some athiests (oh man, the stories I could tell you. :wink: ), but I don't automatically think Christianity is stupid, not even now.
> 
> No no no, I know what you're saying is coming from your Fe, but when you say, and anyone says, _the right thing to do_, alarm bells go off in my head, there is no strictly right thing to do. What I meant, was that what if a person doesn't enjoy the fact that they provide to charity, shelter orphans and all around lead a good life, is that really meaning? And what if what that person does enjoy is considered antagonistic and unambitious, if you're hurting/not affecting people's lives at all, is that meaning?


I'm trying to clean and do this at the same time but I'll try to respond lastly here (and then maybe we should probably get off the topic of religion) 

I think that if you come across someone who can discuss their faith, then I think you should (or could, maybe I should say) discuss with them at that time, learn what you can. Some people are better able to discuss it than others, and there are appropriate times to discuss it and inappropriate times to discuss it. If someone is mistreating another person in the name of the religion, I think that could be an appropriate time to challenge them and get them to rethink their actions. But if they're just discussing their faith with another person who believes as they do, or if they're referencing it at the dinner table, or if they aren't discussing it at all, I don't know if bringing it up and probing it with other people would be the most effective method. 

But... This is hard for me to understand I think, because I use Ti. I learn best privately, when I am able to hold things alone with myself and contemplate them. I'm not sure if it would be the opposite with some Te users, if they would learn through challenged discussion / debate. I look at such conversations and go "oh dear, how fruitless, you cannot cover such a huge concept in one discussion and chances are with those tones they will just walk away more convinced that each is Unquestionably Correct and that the other is a Cow and that's not very productive...," but I imagine it's the opposite for some? It's hard for me to understand but that's probably a thing? 

As for meaning... If someone is doing something like helping others but still feeling scorn in their heart, I don't think their heart is ready. They should nurse themselves and grow comfortable enough to find joy in others' triumphs... then go back out, and feel great while doing great things. Sometimes volunteering unlocks that kindness, other times it does not. When it does not, I don't think forcing more of it will help much. My parents thought that if they made me keep playing sports constantly, I would come to love it. That's not the case. I like sports when I _choose_ to participate in them, but I still dislike being forced to do something that my heart is resisting. It is the same with helping and doing good, I think. It's good, but forcing someone to do it (or someone forcing themselves to do it) isn't going to do much good unless they decide with their heart that this is where they want to be and what they want to do. Unless they do that, until they do that, I think their hearts will not be there and sometimes they can do more emotional hard than good when volunteering in such states. 

(A bit of a lot of words but maybe that makes sense?)


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I agree with this. ^^
> 
> Just a side note, I think people without religion can still have faith. Just a different kind of faith as always


Yup.

I also think it's too much to assume that someone who treats faith/religion scientifically has never experienced faith. I was deeply spiritual and religious until my mid-teens. I grew up surrounded by faith and religion. I was an active part of the religious community and willingly chose baptism at the age of twelve. My faith was my driving force in life.

But beliefs change or grow. That's life.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I haven't kept up with the discussion, but I saw a statement like "you don't understand faith and religion." Maybe it's true, but these things are very personal, and how can anyone define another person's faith? It's theirs, or maybe it isn't, because they have no faith. Both are fine.


What I meant was actually this, that someone cannot understand / criticize someone else's faith. I agree with @Curiphant that even those who do not identify with a religious belief or theism can still experience faith - and theists cannot and should not poke at what they believe. In the same way, I do not think that people outside of a certain faith can poke at that faith. Of course they do - Americans do it all the time with Muslim beliefs - but I think it is always wrong and is perpetualizing an already grave misunderstanding. 

I am sorry if I implied that non-Christians can not experience faith. I do not believe that in any way. I only mean that non-Christians who do not share faith in the Christian beliefs cannot understand the Christian mindset, which I do not think is a controversial thought. You have to be something to fully understand that something. 

Like I said in my last post, I think we should discontinue this conversation, but I wanted to explain. I do not say that to be offensive, but just because... I do think it's an obvious thing, but something that people of all beliefs have a hard time understanding at times unfortunately.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Yup.
> 
> I also think it's too much to assume that someone who treats faith/religion scientifically has never experienced faith. I was deeply spiritual and religious until my mid-teens. I grew up surrounded by faith and religion. I was an active part of the religious community and willingly chose baptism at the age of twelve. My faith was my driving force in life.
> 
> But beliefs change or grow. That's life.


I think that saying "faith and reason cannot coexist" and asserting that because it is logical and not understanding how that is not the case is incorrect. It makes logical sense, but to one who has truly achieved both and understands how they intertwine it is just... frustrating. I am sorry if this was offensive, I am not trying to say what I think you think I am saying, but I find that statement offensive and very, very frustrating.


----------



## Immolate

I don't know, Bear.



> *You're one of those who does not understand faith and religion, so looking at it from the outside, you cannot comprehend it. (Correct me if I'm wrong and you adhere to a religion, but I highly doubt that's the case.) You are thinking of this clinically, scientifically. Faith is not reason. Faith has no reason.* I cannot speak for all people with faith, but for me that is not the case. I have always believed in God, and this has allowed me to see Him in the small things in the world. By my not asking for Him to show Himself, He has made Himself known to me. These things have shown me without a doubt that He is there. I think that faith probably is necessary to understand how God is reasonable, how the universe is reasonable, how He is the center and that all makes sense... but it is there. Faith and reason do mix. Faith is not inherently illogical. It's just a jump that allows us to see the truths of the universe more clearly with knowledge of God.
> 
> *These things will be hard for you to understand as someone who does not see it.* And I admit that I do not know how to speak to help you see it. I do not. But what you are saying, what people say - that faith and reason cannot coexist - is not the case.


That comes across a certain way.


----------



## Dangerose

From my perspective, when someone says something like "faith and reason cannot coexist" it makes me feel in a similar way as to a little bear . . . if from your perspective faith is unreasonable, which things we don't understand generally are, then of course faith and reason can't coexist for you. So, yes, if you are saying this sort of thing it shows that you do not understand faith. It means that you are working under the assumption that faith is unreasonable...which, as the perspective of someone who has faith, I can tell that it is not. And, reasonably, when I consider that 'reason' is rather a subjective value judgment, I assume someone with this viewpoint would say that C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, and any number of great Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. philosophers and thinkers lack reason...seems quite unreasonable as well. And...honestly, reason is not really much more objective than faith. As a Christian, I recognize that God is the only holder of true Reason, that I am a human and my logical faculties are great in comparison to a dog's, tiny in comparison with the cosmos, so faith in this case seems more reasonable. My dog is a stupid idiot. He probably thinks he's pretty smart, but I'm glad that he has faith in me, that I'll protect him from running into the street or . . . help him get around tables. If he had no faith in me, the highest power he'd know would be his own reason -- which wouldn't take him far.

I wouldn't say my faith in God is the same as a dog's faith in his master, but it's more similar than it is to . . . a schoolchild's faith that Harry Potter-style magic does exist. That's a closer approximation of that sort of faith.

And religion is different from faith. You can have faith and lack religion, just like you can have religion and lack faith.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> This is true, and thank you for pointing it out actually. It is something I need to learn... especially since *I do have the bad tendency to see people as plainly wrong if I see them as wrong*, in or out of faith discussion. I will work to be more mindful of this.












And here I thought everyone did it.


----------



## Stasis

Now it's my turn to be a stick in the mud.

There is Biblical faith: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Hope, in this sense, is not blind, but confidence in a *reasonable* outcome. Conviction is the act of believing in the unseen for which we do have good *reason*.

Now we also have cause to reason: "but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a *defense* to anyone who asks you for a *reason* for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect," 1 Peter 3:15

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of *knowledge*; fools despise *wisdom and instruction*." Proverbs 1:7

Christians are called to reason and often faith is built up by good reason. If you want to put that notion to the test, go here: Questions about Christians

*Reason is simply justification or an explanation.*

If we're talking logic, where does it come from? And why do you uphold what you cannot see? And why do you consider logic to be the objective measure of all things?


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I'm trying to clean and do this at the same time but I'll try to respond lastly here (and then maybe we should probably get off the topic of religion)
> 
> I think that if you come across someone who can discuss their faith, then I think you should (or could, maybe I should say) discuss with them at that time, learn what you can. Some people are better able to discuss it than others, and there are appropriate times to discuss it and inappropriate times to discuss it. If someone is mistreating another person in the name of the religion, I think that could be an appropriate time to challenge them and get them to rethink their actions. But if they're just discussing their faith with another person who believes as they do, or if they're referencing it at the dinner table, or if they aren't discussing it at all, I don't know if bringing it up and probing it with other people would be the most effective method.
> 
> But... This is hard for me to understand I think, because I use Ti. I learn best privately, when I am able to hold things alone with myself and contemplate them. I'm not sure if it would be the opposite with some Te users, if they would learn through challenged discussion / debate. I look at such conversations and go "oh dear, how fruitless, you cannot cover such a huge concept in one discussion and chances are with those tones they will just walk away more convinced that each is Unquestionably Correct and that the other is a Cow and that's not very productive...," but I imagine it's the opposite for some? It's hard for me to understand but that's probably a thing?
> 
> As for meaning... If someone is doing something like helping others but still feeling scorn in their heart, I don't think their heart is ready. They should nurse themselves and grow comfortable enough to find joy in others' triumphs... then go back out, and feel great while doing great things. Sometimes volunteering unlocks that kindness, other times it does not. When it does not, I don't think forcing more of it will help much. My parents thought that if they made me keep playing sports constantly, I would come to love it. That's not the case. I like sports when I _choose_ to participate in them, but I still dislike being forced to do something that my heart is resisting. It is the same with helping and doing good, I think. It's good, but forcing someone to do it (or someone forcing themselves to do it) isn't going to do much good unless they decide with their heart that this is where they want to be and what they want to do. Unless they do that, until they do that, I think their hearts will not be there and sometimes they can do more emotional hard than good when volunteering in such states.
> 
> (A bit of a lot of words but maybe that makes sense?)


Hey, if you have something else to do, you don't really need to push yourself. :wink:

Yeah, I learn best through conflict and by absorbing other people's information, opposite of you, it seems. :laughing: How are you supposed to learn without challenging already existing beliefs with your own judgement system? Adapting to the already accepted system, well, I'm not an SJ.

I didn't necessarily mean scorn, but sure, let's go with that. :dry: But thank you for your answer, it has quelled my confusion for the moment, and it's much appreciated. :happy:


----------



## Bugs

In reality truth is validated through objective evidence, not words or belief. If someone believes with all their heart and soul that the earth is a cylinder shape instead of a sphere does their mere belief validate that claim?

And requiring belief first in order to understand is the very idea of suspending critical thinking. Asking questions like I am now before believing is really challenging a concept. Asking some one to believe before investigating is analogous to a meth addict saying tango dancing elephants exist and he has witnessed this. In order to see he's telling the truth all I have to do is get drugged up like him, lol. 
Imagine if our criminal justice system was tailored to the idea that believing first is more critical than gathering evidence. That's like judges and juries handing out convictions before seeing the facts of the case. Madness right?


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> I think that other people aren't a good parameter for knowing if your life means anything. If someone tells you that you're irrelevant, it's better to ignore that BS and try to find your own meaning. I'm aware that for Se types it may be a bit difficult to get in touch with Ni (specially if it's repressed), but there's a chance that you have your own vision and only need the proper input for discovering it. It will take some time as Se would be like why I should care about that shit? but really it will help you to find the hidden stuff that you overlooked before.


Really the only way to discern that when you have no idea yourself. Haha, actually, it's my Fi that's repressed, entirely by choice, though. I think that I'm more concerned with finding it than actually implementing it says a lot about my higher Se than Ni. Thanks, though. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> And here I thought everyone did it.


Nope. We are the only obnoxious know-it-alls in this universe.  (Of course I'm kidding but just clarifying.) 

All of that word garbage out, I... don't want to say I'm sorry because I've said that enough, but I will keep working on not exploding into apologizes and jumping to misunderstandings and projected feelings in the future. I obviously have trouble dealing with even the smallest of conflicts. I will try to be more mindful of my weaknesses and not obnoxiously jump in and fall to my own faults as much in the future. Thank you everyone for your tolerance.


----------



## orbit

Why is everyone so defensive? I don't understand. 

Oh wait she answered my questioned whoops. I didn't read carefully enough


----------



## Bugs

I'm at work and my phone auto correct is screwing up my posts. I'll post later from home. Toodles!


----------



## 68097

This has become the thread of subjective worldviews. 

@alittlebear: don't beat yourself up over anything you have said. I don't think any of it was offensive, and you are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> In reality truth is validated through objective evidence, not words or belief. If someone believes with all their heart and soul that the earth is a cylinder shape instead of a sphere does their mere belief validate that claim?
> 
> And requiring belief first in order to understand is the very idea of suspending critical thinking. Asking questions like I am now before believing is really challenging a concept. Asking some one to believe before investigating is analogous to a method addicted saying tangible dancing elephants exist and he has witnessed this. In order to see he's telling the truth all I have to do is get drugged up like him, lol.
> Imagine if our criminal justice system was tailored to the idea that believing first is more critical than gathering evidence. That's like judges and juries handing out convictions before seeing the facts of the case. Madness right?


I think people see facts to support their religious beliefs. Objective evidence as you say. 

And what truth is is an opinion I think? Or what is constitutes truth is a belief ^^


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Why is everyone so defensive? I don't understand.
> 
> alittlebear, question!
> 
> If you think it's impossible to understand each other, is there any point for this conversation to continue? If I can't understand angelcat or Oswin, they can't understand me...
> 
> I don't know. I think we respect each other and our respective beliefs.
> 
> So if that's your belief, then why are we still talking about this?
> 
> I'm not saying we should I'm just curious... Oh wait... I can't understand? (that sounded sarcastic unintentionally)
> 
> Well I want to know. I might not understand, but I want to know.


Well, no offence, but not talking about something because respective parties can't understand each other is stupid. Do mute people stop trying to talk? No, they adjust and grow. And respect means you hold them in a light equal to your own... honestly, I can't do that. But I do try to learn through osmosis by talking with them and other Christians about it, perhaps if we talk enough, I'll grow into it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Why is everyone so defensive? I don't understand.
> 
> alittlebear, question!
> 
> If you think it's impossible to understand each other, is there any point for this conversation to continue? If I can't understand angelcat or Oswin, they can't understand me...
> 
> I don't know. I think we respect each other and our respective beliefs.
> 
> So if that's your belief, then why are we still talking about this?
> 
> I'm not saying we should I'm just curious... Oh wait... I can't understand? (that sounded sarcastic unintentionally)
> 
> Well I want to know. I might not understand, but I want to know.


That's actually something I think pretty plainly... When people have reached a point where they cannot understand one another, any further conversation will be fruitless and should be stopped in order to maintain the best situation possible. This I usually apply to situations where people reach a barrier and are only talking at each other (or too frequently in these cases yelling at each other) and are only seeing their points of view, one trying to convince the other, neither going forward with an open mind... On rare occasion a mind budges, but in most cases (I see this mostly in political... would say debates, but yeah, screaming matches is more appropriate) they do not. 

I mean,

One of my friends has a belief system that is very different from mine. I do not know what that feels like to her, how she experiences it, but I love to listen to her talk about it. Conversely, she sometimes asks me questions about Christianity, and while it is foreign to her she listens as I do to her. I think that these are productive conversations. We are learning about each other, and about different experiences of the world. I love these conversations. 

But sometimes, when a conversation is being used to seek truth... It doesn't go so well. 

Part of this is my weak Ti, though. Not to mention the E9. I shy away from conflict, and misinterpret even conversations that are not conflict but only... questioning, learning, sharing as my friend and I do but in a different form. 

But... To answer your question plainly, I think that when it reaches a point where two parties cannot understand each other for whatever reason, the discussion is best frozen.


----------



## Stasis

Bugs said:


> In reality truth is validated through objective evidence, not words or belief. If someone believes with all their heart and soul that the earth is a cylinder shape instead of a sphere does their mere belief validate that claim?
> 
> And requiring belief first in order to understand is the very idea of suspending critical thinking. Asking questions like I am now before believing is really challenging a concept. Asking some one to believe before investigating is analogous to a method addicted saying tangible dancing elephants exist and he has witnessed this. In order to see he's telling the truth all I have to do is get drugged up like him, lol.
> Imagine if our criminal justice system was tailored to the idea that believing first is more critical than gathering evidence. That's like judges and juries handing out convictions before seeing the facts of the case. Madness right?


In reality, truth needs no defense. 

Belief in God is rarely as fickle as people make it out to be. Often times we operate off the same systems (logic, argument) using the same platforms (science) to prove different outcomes. Neither side is able to prove or disprove God beyond personal or shared experience. If this were a trial, the non-believing side would have no evidence to even sustain the claim made in court. Case dismissed. 

We do not believe before we investigate. We investigate, therefore we believe.


----------



## orbit

We chased off all the guests


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> We chased off all the guests


Gee, I wonder why. Maybe they thought the thread would explode.


----------



## Dangerose

Bugs said:


> In reality truth is validated through objective evidence, not words or belief. If someone believes with all their heart and soul that the earth is a cylinder shape instead of a sphere does their mere belief validate that claim?
> 
> And requiring belief first in order to understand is the very idea of suspending critical thinking. Asking questions like I am now before believing is really challenging a concept. Asking some one to believe before investigating is analogous to a meth addict saying tango dancing elephants exist and he has witnessed this. In order to see he's telling the truth all I have to do is get drugged up like him, lol.
> Imagine if our criminal justice system was tailored to the idea that believing first is more critical than gathering evidence. That's like judges and juries handing out convictions before seeing the facts of the case. Madness right?


Yeah, but, in the sense you are using the word, belief is 100% necessary for any sort of critical thinking.
I believe the earth is roughly spherical. Do I KNOW that? No, for all I know I could be living in some sort of Truman Show world, or the government could have some secret plan that involves convincing everyone the world is round, maybe there is no world, maybe all existence is stored in a computer chip somewhere, I don't know. I could never know. Do I think those things are happening? No, so in your sense, I believe the earth is spherical. There is no truly objective knowledge. Even "I think, therefore I am" is a hypothesis. We take leaps of faith all the time. Nothing would get done if it didn't. I believe my words are going to be read by some other human beings when I hit 'post quick reply'. Kind-of a stretch it seems. Who knows but that it is the Horcrux of Tom Riddle who is writing back to me? Or maybe I was turned into a Dalek, maybe I invented this reality because I couldn't handle the truth!

But, you know, in the sense I was using the word, I don't have faith that the earth is spherical. I just don't care that much. I was talking about a different kind of faith, I think it's a mistake to conflate the two meanings.


----------



## orbit

My Jewish friend told me her parents taught her to question everything

It made me feel bad, because I just assume the stars are hot balls of gases and what's an atomic bomb is nuclear 

I took it took literally or too far but 

Faith is necessary for everyday life, kind of like how Oswin said(?)


----------



## 68097

You know, learning about cognition has really put a cramp in my personal style. There was a time I would have argued the 'logic' of faith not realizing all my arguments were purely emotional, and been none the wiser. Now, I realize that any arguments I pose are weak subjective attempts to validate a higher Si-perception and Fe-conclusion. 










I may have been happier living in ignorance, but at least now I know my limitations. =P


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> You know, learning about cognition has really put a cramp in my personal style. There was a time I would have argued the 'logic' of faith not realizing all my arguments were purely emotional, and been none the wiser. Now, I realize that any arguments I pose are weak subjective attempts to validate a higher Si-perception and Fe-conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may have been happier living in ignorance, but at least now I know my limitations. =P


I was thinking about that last night, actually. I think I know my personality types, but now it's time to actually... figure out what this means for me. What are my limitations? How do I overcome them, how do I acknowledge them, how do I operate in spite of them without going into unhealthy territory? I'm considering ordering/buying a good old fashioned MBTI book to help me get back to these basics.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I was thinking about that last night, actually. I think I know my personality types, but now it's time to actually... figure out what this means for me. What are my limitations? How do I overcome them, how do I acknowledge them, how do I operate in spite of them without going into unhealthy territory? I'm considering ordering/buying a good old fashioned MBTI book to help me get back to these basics.


I was just thinking the same thing.
Now that I feel mostly convinced of my type...time to figure out the next step. 
Though @angelcat, I don't think Si or Fe are less valid in discussions than Ti or Te. Though I guess all my 'I think' statements are suspect due my inferior Ti uffer:


----------



## orbit

Peasants.

ISFPs have no limitations.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> Curiphant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, I vaguely see Te all over this thread. Barely recognize it. I dislike my Te because it makes me stressed v.v
> 
> Edit: Also the Te inferior deacription hit the nail on the head. Mostly.
> 
> 
> 
> _The typical and “normal” moderate dissatisfaction of ISFPs and INFPs with themselves, others, and life in general relative to their ideals takes the form of automatic cynicism, distrust of others’ motives, and pervasive anger toward the world and everyone in it._
> 
> Oh yeah, fits.
Click to expand...

^!


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> Peasants.
> 
> ISFPs have no limitations.


BTW, every time I look at your avatar, I think, "Oh, that's right! That's the thing I need to add to my bucket list! Ride in a hot air balloon!" and then, "But I have no bucket list! I must make one!" and then "But what else do I add to it?" because I don't want a one-item bucket-list because that would make going in a hot air balloon basically a death sentence.

Every time.


----------



## Max

Curiphant said:


> Peasants.
> 
> ISFPs have no limitations.


*Cough cough* 

ESTP here ;D

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I was thinking about that last night, actually. I think I know my personality types, but now it's time to actually... figure out what this means for me. What are my limitations? How do I overcome them, how do I acknowledge them, how do I operate in spite of them without going into unhealthy territory? I'm considering ordering/buying a good old fashioned MBTI book to help me get back to these basics.


Until I actually figured out my true type and recognized my biggest weakness (inferior Ne and its freak-out mode), I had no true sense of my inner self, and did not see myself clearly. I thought I was a thinker type for a long time because I always made "rational" decisions -- well, as it turns out, that was not pure rationality, that was "safe" Si-dom, playing off of Ne-inferior fears (if I do this, what bad thing will happen as a result?). I thought I was more rational than I am, because I parroted a lot of what older, wiser people had taught me. I learned from all their mistakes. 

That is not to say that I am not intelligent, but that accepting my type has helped me see myself more clearly, and discern my own weaknesses. Yet, they are still weaknesses. You have seen ample enough evidence of it on this thread -- where I have made generalizing statements without the proof required to back them up. Proof is hard for me, firstly because my Ne is well enough developed to catch on and run with the ball, to sound as if I am a greater authority on a topic than I am, and secondly, because Ti and proof are at odds with one another. I can't be specific, much as I want to. I am not objective. I see the world through a subjective lens. (You are more fortunate, as an extrovert, because you have high Fe/Se, which gives you more objectivity.)

I would argue that the greatest value in Jung or MBTI is in establishing your type, not so you can reinforce those negative things about yourself, but so that you can discern your weaknesses and learn to work on them. That means, for me, catching myself being resistant to change for its own sake and asking, "Now, are you really balking because you don't have enough evidence, or like things the way they are, or is it because you're afraid of the unpredictable outcome of doing this? Try it. Stop being hesitant and just ... throw yourself into life more."

But... that is insanely difficult for me. I am a fearful person by my very nature. Fear is an incredible motivator for me, and I never realized it until now. I am paralyzed by my own uncertainty about ... everything. My inferior Ne wreaks havoc with me every day of my life. Is this what I want? Or is that what I want? What does this mean? What will happen if I do this? I have no plan, no set goals, no certainties. I constantly doubt my own conclusions, and have a pessimistic perspective of the world. I expect things to implode and I expect things to go badly, but I seem incapable of being on the offensive and taking preventative steps to STOP the inevitable. 

I sat down and cried last night, after watching the movie "Elvis and Anabelle," because I so wished to have the courage and "take life by the balls" attitude of the heroine. Her life is no better than mine; in fact, in some ways it is worse. She's bulimic and suicidal, but she LOVES life when she's in it. She's carefree, the type who would just run along the beach for fun, or get up in the morning and decide to paint a house, take a risk, run away from home. She's an optimist who plants sunflowers in the belief they will grow in a field where nothing else will.

My fear and pessimism shames me by comparison. I don't want to be this way anymore. I don't want to be fearful and hesitant and see the glass as half empty, and criticize things all the time, and fight with people, and quibble over meaningless things. I just want to be happy, to be brave enough to try new things. 

So, I have to learn to find my courage. To do things. To try things, even if I may look stupid doing them. To loosen up, and crawl out of my sheltering Ti, and let people in the way I haven't been, and to just take it one day at a time. 

I'm not sure a book can teach me that. I think it has to come from me being sick of my flaws and doing something about them.


----------



## orbit

Knowing my type (if it's true but seeing how comfortable I feel with it, I think it is) kind of makes me sad because all of the descriptions kind of state that where I want to go defies my nature. So I'm probably going to have to find something new that matches my nature

I can be incorrect and the descriptions can be silly but Fi-Se is not... Hard?


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, to ask a question that's been nagging at me for a while now, do you guys regret your life choices?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, no. I can see where the mistakes have taught me things and where I would not be the person I am today, had I chosen differently in some instances.
> 
> I do regret some of my interactions with other people, though. Mostly, I wish I were more optimistic and had more of a passion for living. I just kind of ... exist, and I don't like it, but I'm too uncertain of what I want or where it might lead to just go out and try everything.
Click to expand...

Yes! All of this. To a T.


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> Knowing my type (if it's true but seeing how comfortable I feel with it, I think it is) kind of makes me sad because all of the descriptions kind of state that where I want to go defies my nature. So I'm probably going to have to find something new that matches my nature
> 
> I can be incorrect and the descriptions can be silly but Fi-Se is not... Hard?


?
I kinda know what you mean, I wish I'd known my MBTI type when I was signing on to be an engineering major, but your type shouldn't be a limit, just so far as is really shows you who _you_ are...


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> angelcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, no. I can see where the mistakes have taught me things *and where I would not be the person I am today, had I chosen differently in some instances. *
> 
> 
> 
> This here is exactly why I take issue with most of my past decisions)) Being the person you are today is not always a positive (for you it seems to have turned out pretty well though)
> I don't know though, I just finished watching "Bojack Horseman" and I might be feeling irrationally depressed and cynical as a result. Very depressing show. Recommend.
Click to expand...

See I agree, for a spiritual standpoint. But then again, my quality of life suffers. But it's no one's fault but my own. I'm not LIVING, but SURVIVING. 

Anyhoo... nice weather we've got today...  lol


----------



## Dangerose

Do you know what I'm going to regret in the future, looking back on me now? I'm just not living. I'm young, but I'm hardly alive. That's the worst thing, honestly, I am always so annoyed when people don't seem to know they're alive.
Just like...where is it? Life? Where do you go to sign up for one? I want to be out doing stuff...just I don't really know what people do?
Anyone relate or have answers?
Only 2 guests? Did I scare them away? I'm so sorry for accidentally instigating the religion conversation.
Come back!









...and I'm trying to post less annoying things, barring this


----------



## Immolate

I think personality typing is an interesting way to label a set of behaviors we use in everyday life. It can help us recognize our weak and strong areas and stimulate our growth as a person, but I agree with @Oswin. It's a label, a guideline. It doesn't define who we are and it can't capture the breadth of human experience. 

I like to think we're more complex than that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat It's odd, because... Perhaps I am just ignorant of my own ignorance, that's very possible, but I feel like I know myself very well internally. My terms to describe myself are abstract but... They do make sense to me. I am deep, nearly electric blue. I have an elephant in my heart. I am softness with only a fluid, absorbing hardness. These things may not make sense, but they make absolute sense to me... they describe what I have known of myself since... well, childhood. 

My problem is that I do not know myself externally. I have a hard time understanding how I am perceived, and becoming how I want to be perceived. It works in two ways... One, I am not aware of my faults to other people, but at the same time I am too aware of my faults to other people, too conscious of how I do not fit in, too aware of my own shortcomings in the eyes of others. It is written everywhere with them. Through MBTI, going back to the basics, I'm hoping to learn how to be a healthier me and how to best appear to others so that I can truly help others, not just from the sidelines, but as a respected member of the team. 

Of course I am working on this in other respects too, but I am hoping that MBTI and Enneagram can aid me in these processes.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Gray Romantic said:


> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I've always hated the idea of getting older. You lose your physical strength and capabilities unless you specifically train them to avoid this fate, and you eventually get confined to a bed to live out the rest of your days in a hospital. Not a fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well duh, when you're 40 and above. Enjoy the time you have
Click to expand...

I kinda disagree. I love aging, because I keep gaining more and more wisdom and life's lessons learned. I don't know, the closer I am to my thirties, the more and more I feel like a 'WOMAN'. lol


----------



## fair phantom

o_o Things got heavy while I was asleep.

Also apparently my sister is the nicest Te-dom in existence. Though I wonder how often Te-doms are mistyped just because they are caring and friendly and don't expect everyone to be super-high achievers like them. I suspect this happens particularly often with women due to the socialization process. I've said before that people would probably mistake my sister for an Fe-dom (or perhaps an Ne-dom or Se-dom) upon first meeting her, if it was in a social setting.

Back to reading the dozen pages I missed while sleeping.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat It's odd, because... Perhaps I am just ignorant of my own ignorance, that's very possible, but I feel like I know myself very well internally. My terms to describe myself are abstract but... They do make sense to me. I am deep, nearly electric blue. I have an elephant in my heart. I am softness with only a fluid, absorbing hardness. These things may not make sense, but they make absolute sense to me... they describe what I have known of myself since... well, childhood.
> 
> My problem is that I do not know myself externally. I have a hard time understanding how I am perceived, and becoming how I want to be perceived. It works in two ways... One, I am not aware of my faults to other people, but at the same time I am too aware of my faults to other people, too conscious of how I do not fit in, too aware of my own shortcomings in the eyes of others. It is written everywhere with them. Through MBTI, going back to the basics, I'm hoping to learn how to be a healthier me and how to best appear to others so that I can truly help others, not just from the sidelines, but as a respected member of the team.
> 
> Of course I am working on this in other respects too, but I am hoping that MBTI and Enneagram can aid me in these processes.


Yes!
(Trying @SugarPlum's way of agreeing)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> Do you know what I'm going to regret in the future, looking back on me now? I'm just not living. I'm young, but I'm hardly alive. That's the worst thing, honestly, I am always so annoyed when people don't seem to know they're alive.
> Just like...where is it? Life? Where do you go to sign up for one? I want to be out doing stuff...just I don't really know what people do?
> Anyone relate or have answers?
> Only 2 guests? Did I scare them away? I'm so sorry for accidentally instigating the religion conversation.
> Come back!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and I'm trying to post less annoying things, barring this


My problem is that I am not doing what I need to do to achieve my goals. 

Or, I am. I've talked to people about it, explained the situation as best I could, and they've responded that in life I'm doing the best I can. I am working towards my goals to the best of my ability. I'm doing a lot more than so many other kids my age, they say. But to me that's not enough. Life doesn't care if I'm doing the best I can. It doesn't matter that I have PTSD and GAD and my parents aren't fish and I couldn't walk well enough to get a job this summer when they were hiring. Life knows no excuses. It will be - did you do this? No? Then oh well. You missed it. My greatest fear is that I will miss out on so many things they I am inadequately equipped to accomplish what I know I must, that I will die unhappy, unfulfilled, still looking out at the world as I am now with a sense of purpose that I was unable to color the world with. 

But... The good thing is, I think, that I am not dying. I am 19. Things seem to be moving too fast, but instead of thinking of that I must think of the time ahead. The glass is not even half empty. Sometimes life is not fair... but maybe karma is a thing, and good will come back to people, even those who life heaps what seems like too many challenges on. Of course that brings up the thoughts of "am I deserving of that" and "trying hard is never enough," and of course I am unworthy of anything, this is a fact I think, but... Still o hope that the universe will treat me with unexpected kindness. And that my dreams will somehow squeeze into reality. 

But... yeah, my ExxP drama teacher in high school signed my year book that I should "live life to the fullest." She knows I'm an uptight little thing who looks too far ahead to appreciate the now. And I am trying that, but... It must be a balance. But I think I will find it. I have to think that, kind of, I think.


----------



## Immolate

I'm curious. Has everyone settled on their type?

So far:

@_alittlebear_ ENFJ 

@_Oswin_ ESFJ 

@_Curiphant_ ISFP 

@_SugarPlum_ INFP 

@_ElliCat_ INFP 

@_fair phantom_ INFP? 

@_LuchoIsLurking_ ESTP

@_Barakiel_ ???


----------



## Dangerose

@shinynotshiny INTJ or...?


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ INTJ or...?


:glee:


I see @arkigos lurking. Any impressions concerning my type? No explanations necessary.


----------



## Dangerose

blue flare said:


> entropic posted type 8 description so here you can check it http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-forum-challenger/378530-sandra-maitris-chapter-type-8-a.html
> 
> now for the other two, here they are lol
> 
> type 3
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the quintessential image type, threes are characterized by an overriding concern with how they
> present themselves, how they look, and the impact that they have on others. This is the proverbial selfmade
> man or woman, creating themselves and pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. They
> are chameleonlike, taking on the colorings needed to make a positive impression. It is often difficult
> to discern what they truly feel or even who they truly are, since they seem to become whoever they
> need to in order to present the image necessary to achieve the result that they wish. They tend to
> change their presentation depending upon the situation and who they are with, so that often others
> have very different experiences and impressions of the same person.
> They are driven and goal oriented, and value success in the particular domain in which they are
> invested more than anything. Achieving what they set out to do takes precedence over every other
> concern, whether they be physical constraints, those of class or economic origin, or the feelings of
> others or even of themselves. They often drive themselves mercilessly in their pursuit of
> accomplishment, and may be perceived by others as ruthless, calculating, and possessing a steely
> determination. Threes are pragmatic and matter-of-fact, doing whatever it takes to get the job done,
> including using manipulation and deception. While sometimes consciously duplicitous, threes often
> do not know what is really true for them, since they often feel the emotions and have the attitude that
> they think is appropriate for their situation.
> Threes are doers, and the perspective on reality that they are sensitive to—their holy idea—has to
> do with activity. As with point six, there is more than one name for the holy idea associated with
> point three on the enneagram. Two of them, holy law and holy harmony, are perceptions about
> reality; and the third, holy hope, refers to the effect upon the soul as these understandings about
> reality are integrated. All three nuances of this holy idea concern the dynamic aspect of being, the
> fact that it is not static but rather is ceaselessly unfolding, and this effulgence is the universe of which
> we are a part. This dimension of being is called the logos in the diamond approach. So this idea is
> related to the functioning of reality and has many shades of meaning—more than most of the other
> points—which i will briefly describe. In a nutshell, this idea tells us that reality as a unified whole is
> constantly unfolding and that the actions, changes, and movements of each of us are inseparable from
> the shifts of that wholeness. If we consciously participate in this ceaseless unfoldment, which means
> that if our fixations, which rigidify the soul, relax, our consciousness will naturally move deeper and
> deeper toward our depths, our essential nature; and we will experience more harmony, inner and outer.
> This progressive movement closer to the ultimate truth of our nature is the potentiality of the human
> soul.
> Let us look at each of the particulars of this idea in more detail. Holy law is the understanding that
> the universe as one whole and unified entity is constantly in a state of change. The perceptions that all
> manifestation is a unity and that all of us are ultimately different cells in the one body of the universe
> are the focus of the holy ideas of points eight and five, holy truth and holy omniscience,
> respectively. Here, at point three, we understand that this unity is always in motion and does not hold
> still. The whole substance of reality in all of its dimensions is perpetually in flux, like a great ocean
> whose surface is made up of the movement of many different waves and whose depths are made up of
> many currents. All of the shifts and movements of the various forms are part of the unfoldment of the
> whole.
> This is a very difficult perception for most people to grasp. It challenges some of our fundamental
> beliefs about ourselves, regardless of ennea-type. First of all, it challenges our notions of cause and
> effect, since from the unobstructed view of holy law we see that nothing and no one is separately
> affecting or making anything happen. Everything that happens is part of the fabric of the universe
> unfurling itself. So nothing happens in isolation from the whole of that fabric, and no one initiates
> action of her own accord, nor do we cause things to occur separately from the momentum of that
> whole. It is easier to understand that we are inseparable from the oneness of the universe than it is to
> understand that we actually do nothing in isolation from the dynamism of the whole of reality. We
> will discuss this more a little further on.
> Perceiving the dynamism of being—the fact that it is a presence in constant flow—also challenges
> our notion of time, something i will discuss more fully in chapter 10 when we explore holy plan,
> which deals with the pattern of this dynamism. Understanding holy law also calls into question any
> of our notions of god as an entity outside the fabric of the universe, since clearly this is not possible.
> It also shows us that it makes no sense to conceive of this separate entity, god, who at some point in
> the distant past created the world. When we see that the universe is one whole thing that is constantly
> arising, we see that the creation is occurring all the time. This is also something i will discuss more
> fully in chapter 10. Our ideas about life and death change if we understand holy law, as we see in the
> following quote of almaas:
> To understand that the totality of the universe is constantly renewing itself radically changes our
> notion of death. Personal death is simply being manifesting at one moment with a particular person as
> part of the picture, and in the next moment without that person. From this perspective, all the issues
> about death change character. Death disappears into the continual flow of unfolding, self-arising
> change.1
> so all that exists is a manifestation of being, forms arising and sinking back into the mystery of the
> absolute. Out of nothing, something arises. This is the creativity of being, expressing itself in all of
> the forms of the world, including our own bodies and souls. Not only is being manifesting itself in all
> of us and all that surrounds us but holy law tells us that it is also revealing itself. All of the
> loveliness of the physical world—all of the stars, galaxies, and planets, all of the beauties of nature,
> and all of the creatures of the earth including ourselves—is being revealing itself in all of its
> magnificence. Its inner nature displays itself in all of its grandeur in the world of form. The world of
> manifestation, then, is the expression of the constantly self-revealing creativity of being.
> When we perceive the harmonious interplay of all of manifestation, we are in touch with holy
> harmony, the next nuance of this idea. It tells us that what may appear as conflicts and incongruities
> among the various parts of the whole that is the universe only look that way when seen from the
> surface. Since the unfoldment of the universe is the movement and dynamism of a oneness, none of
> the parts can be fundamentally at odds with each other. They are all part of the same harmonious
> outpouring.
> It also refers to the understanding that there is a magnetic pull upon the human soul which, left
> unimpeded, will draw us toward the depths in which this unitive, and thus harmonious, functioning is
> apparent. If the soul is supported in developing and unfolding, in other words, it will naturally be
> drawn toward its essence, which is its inner truth. Spiritual development, then, is really a matter of
> nondoing and of removing the obstacles and logjams that impede the flow of our souls. Most people
> experience movement and change, but it usually stays within more or less narrow confines, as
> discussed in the introduction, which gives our lives a sense of staleness, sameness, and stuckness.
> Expanding our consciousness, then, when seen from the angle of point three, is a matter of increasing
> the movement or the flow of our souls so that we experience more of the various dimensions of the
> universe. The final goal of spiritual work, then, is not a particular state but rather a capacity to move
> from one state to another freely and easily. This gives us a sense of momentum and of dynamism,
> reflecting that of being as we attune to it.
> The more we open to the flow of our souls, the more we experience our consciousness and in turn
> our lives as more harmonious. This brings us to holy hope, which describes the effect upon us of
> integrating holy law and holy harmony. The closer we move toward our depths, the more we feel in
> alignment with the universe, functioning harmoniously within its unfolding pattern. This proximity to
> our deepest truth delights the heart since we are answering its call to connect with its greatest love.
> Like an irresistibly attracted lover, the human soul is drawn like a magnet to its beloved, being. As
> we move closer to it, the world we inhabit becomes one of beauty, grace, and harmony.
> Another meaning of holy hope is that this innate pull to connect with and realize our true nature is
> humanity’s deepest potential and its salvation. To the extent that we are in contact with our depths, to
> that extent we understand that we are functioning as parts of a larger body, and this affects us by
> giving our souls a sense of optimism about ourselves, the world, and the whole of the universe.
> Turning to the loss of the holy idea, we will return to holy law. The major implication of holy
> law is that nothing in the universe occurs in isolation and that the actions of one part affect and are
> linked to the actions of all other parts of the whole. Therefore, no one and nothing can function
> independently of the whole body of the universe, so it is not possible to have laws that apply to only
> one part. Because ennea-type threes are sensitive to this holy idea, as they lose contact with being,
> they also lose this understanding and come to feel very much like independent operatives, separate
> entities acting and doing autonomously, unrelated to the functioning of everyone and everything else.
> They come to believe that they are laws unto themselves, beyond the morals, strictures, and principles
> that govern others. This ultimately estranged sense that they can function separately from the whole is
> the fixed and fundamental belief about reality, the fixation of this ennea-type, and is described by the
> word vanity on the enneagram of fixations, diagram 2. (ichazo’s secondary term go refers to the
> three’s characteristic of always being busy—on the go.)
> with the loss of the perception of holy harmony, ennea-type threes, who experience themselves as
> separate players in life as we have seen, can be oblivious to the ramifications and effects of their
> actions on others or on the world as a whole. We see this today in the mind-set that disregards
> environmental consequences if personal gain is at stake, losing sight of the fact that if the ecosystem
> degenerates, there will be nothing more to profit from and no place to enjoy what one has acquired.
> Perhaps it is seen more directly in the mind-set of the person who supports “good causes,” only to
> behave in cutthroat ways toward her most immediate business associates, and so simultaneously
> feeling virtuous while personally acting dishonestly. While characteristic although not confined to
> threes, this kind of insular thinking is only possible with the loss of knowing oneself to be part of a
> greater whole in which the actions of each part affect the totality. Climbing to the top of the heap at
> the expense of other people may feel like a personal triumph—which it usually does to a three—but it
> can hardly be seen as success if the whole system is taken into account. Such a three-ish definition of
> success does not make any ultimate sense: One part of the whole profits to the detriment of another
> part of itself.
> Without the sense that you are part of the unfoldment of the whole fabric of reality and that your
> inner nature is made up of the same presence as everyone and everything else, you are left, like atlas,
> to hold up your own separate little world. This is reality for a three. You are on your own,
> fundamentally unrelated to everyone and everything else, and actually surpassing atlas, it’s up to you
> to create as well as maintain your own universe. There is no activity, unfoldment, or development
> unless you make it happen. If you don’t generate yourself and your life—worse than nothing
> happening—you and your world will fall apart. So you have to be constantly active, ceaselessly busy
> both internally and externally, and hence the nickname of this type, ego-go. Whatever happens in
> your life is up to you, there is no sustenance beyond what you actuate, and there is no salvation beyond
> yourself. There is, in other words, no holy hope. The self who does all of this is the soul identified
> with the personality, cut off from consciousness of being. To a three who is identified with his
> personality, there is nothing deeper, and it’s the only ground she has to operate from.
> I have lumped together the sense of self-creation, an internal cognitive function, as well as the
> three’s sense of instigating external events, and what this linkage implies bears looking into more
> deeply. It is easy to understand a three’s belief that if she doesn’t make things happen, nothing will
> happen, when we think of external action. Most of us, identified as we are with our personalities, take
> it for granted that we cause things to happen, that our actions determine what ensues in our lives, and
> that in this respect we are masters of our fate. Stepping outside of the perspective of the personality,
> however, one sees that this is not the case. Being acts through us. This is one of the most difficult
> things for most people to understand, and perhaps using our previous metaphor will make it easier to
> grasp: We are each individual manifestations of being, separate waves arising and passing away on the
> surface of the great ocean. The movement of each individual wave is not self-generated nor is it
> separately decided upon; it is part of the movement of the whole sea. In the same way, all that occurs
> is part of the movement of the larger fabric of reality. From this angle, the differentiation between
> inner and outer doing—a differentiation based upon whether action is physically manifest or not—
> breaks down. One implication of this is that our thoughts and emotions are every bit as much a part of
> this movement as physical actions are, an understanding reflected in the often-misunderstood notion
> of karma.
> External doing is always driven by inner doing when we are identified with the personality. The
> inner doing of the personality is what is called ego activity in spiritual language. It is the ceaseless
> generation of psychological content, which is based upon our identification as a particular person, and
> it also supports that identification. It supports our sense of who we are, in other words, and is what i
> referred to as self-generation or self-creation. Sometimes consciously, but most often unconsciously,
> we are continuously generating internal pictures of ourselves that have been shaped by our history.
> These pictures, as discussed in the introduction, are like holographic images, complete with feeling
> tones, affective texture, physical tension patterns, and other sensations, and are based on our beliefs.
> We might experience ourselves as someone who is misunderstood, or someone who others are not
> inclined to like, someone who never does things right, or someone who has a hard time initiating
> action; or more positively, as someone who is brighter than others, someone who is very kind, or
> someone who is strong. As also previously discussed, these pictures of ourselves, which form our selfrepresentations,
> arise in counterpoint to our sense of what is other than us, forming the object relations
> that are the building blocks of the personality. As also discussed, embedded within and responsible for
> the dynamic of producing these object relations is the fundamental drive behind ego activity to avoid
> pain and experience pleasure.
> Ego activity is ceaseless in the personality, and until we experience moments in which it stops, we
> have little idea of how tiring and wearing it is. Even when we are asleep, our unconscious is busily
> processing the day’s experiences and anticipating those of tomorrow in the form of dreams. Only in
> deep sleep does this activity stop in the ordinary person, and as experiments of sleep deprivation have
> shown, without this respite, we become psychological wrecks. This cessation of ego activity is the
> goal of many kinds of spiritual work, and such experiences are what are called enlightenment
> experiences, because it is only when we experience ourselves without this activity that we experience
> ourselves completely beyond the personality. In such moments, we know our nature pristinely,
> without any filters of the past, and we experience ourselves as being.
> Once we know that being is our fundamental nature, a further stage is the realization that the sense
> of “i” that our ego activity has been so busy creating and supporting is not necessary for us to
> function. Because our sense of self developed simultaneously with our capacity to function, the two
> have become inseparable in most people’s minds. Eventually, as we continue to develop spiritually,
> we see that we can function without producing inner pictures of ourselves. We learn that we do not
> have to remind ourselves of who we are to drive the car or do our taxes, for instance. Letting go of our
> historical self, with the holographic movie whose theme is a life lived within object relations, we
> contact reality directly, responding to the present instead of the past. We feel simple and empty in a
> positive way, deplete of preconceptions and emotional reactions. Then we can begin to live a life in
> touch with and informed by being, knowing consciously that we are individual manifestations of it.
> We experience ourselves as waves of the great ocean, ourselves one with it. Our place and function
> within the body of humanity is evident, and we live our lives in a harmonious way. This is the
> development of the essential aspect called the pearl in the diamond approach. It is the state of
> embodying and living a life informed by being. This is a very deep level of development, since it
> means not simply having transcended the personality. It means having thoroughly worked through
> identification with our psychology and no longer consciously or unconsciously identifying with the
> personality as defining who and what we are.2 obviously this is no small task and is a level of
> development embodied by very few.
> This quality of being—the pearl—is the one that this personality type mimics and idealizes, and so
> it is its idealized aspect. Let us pick this understanding apart. Ego activity and the internal image of
> self that it generates, as well as external actions that are motivated by it, are central to the psychology
> of ennea-type threes, as we have seen. This activity is a reflection and an imitation of the creative
> and dynamic characteristic of being. So in their attempt to reconnect with the lost holy idea of holy
> law, which has to do with this generative functioning of being, threes attempt to mold or shape
> themselves into a person. Rather than generating the whole universe, as being does, here the activity
> produces a personality based upon a self-image. Threes are deeply identified with this internal image
> of self, produced by their ego activity, as well as with the external activity directed by this “i.” rather
> than experiencing herself as an individual manifestation and expression of being, which is the
> experience of the pearl, the three feels this “i” as supreme. This “i” is an imitation pearl, a fake
> embodiment of god, so to speak, and that is exactly what the ego self is.
> Threes act as though they are the generative principle, the creative aspect of god, in other words,
> since in their own apparently separate universe, that is how it seems. Threes, then, try to take god’s
> place, creating themselves and their lives in accordance with their own inner dictates. This is the
> consummate vanity, in the theological sense: Relating to the separate “i” as though it were the acme.
> Looking at it from a slightly different angle, the personality, the outer surface of who we are, becomes
> central. The shell, the husk of ourselves, is all that remains, with all of the emptiness at the core that
> this image conjures up, and it is this shell that feels primary. It usurps the place and the function—as
> well as the functioning—of being.
> From a psychodynamic point of view, the loss of the holy idea has, as we have seen, left the three
> with the sense that she is not part of the fabric of the whole but rather a separate actor who must
> create a reality and a life. From a historical vantage point, she has reacted to the lack of holding in her
> early environment with the attitude that “i’ll do it myself.” the sensitivity of threes to their essential
> nature not being seen and reflected by the environment, filtered through the loss of the holy idea,
> creates the interpretation they must do to survive and to be loved—that their value is rooted in their
> ego activity and arises from their role and achievements. So the take on their childhood is that their
> survival was up to them and that they were loved for their accomplishments and not for themselves.
> Sometimes there was physical deprivation in the past of a three, or she had to take care of herself as
> well as other siblings at a very young age because of an absent, overextended, or simply neglectful
> parent. These kinds of backgrounds, filtered through the loss of holy law, lead to the “self-made
> man,” clearly a three archetype, in which someone from destitute roots pulls himself up by his own
> bootstraps to achieve phenomenal wealth and fame. Sometimes the deprivation a three has
> experienced is not physical at all—many threes are of course born into affluent and powerful
> families. In these cases, the neglect is more of an emotional withholding in which conforming to the
> family’s ideals and the three’s achievements were all that seemed to receive much notice. Nannies or
> a kindly grandmother might have taken the place of mother, who had other, presumably more
> important, things to do. The message that filtered through the three’s sensitivity was that she was a
> showpiece valued only for her role. Regardless of the childhood circumstances, the message threes
> get is that their survival and their value lie in their performance and achievements, and their
> personality becomes focused around image and action.
> As the name of this ennea-type—ego-vanity—indicates, the issue of vanity is central to the
> psychology of threes. The word vain is defined as “having no real value, meaning or foundation,”3
> and this graphically describes the soul, cut off from awareness of being, in which the shell of the
> personality is experienced as preeminent. Indeed, one’s real foundation—which alone can give a true
> sense of meaning and value to one’s life—is missing. This is the deepest level of the vanity of threes.
> Vanity is also defined as “inflated pride in oneself or one’s appearance, attainments, performance,
> possessions, or successes; hunger for praise or admiration; the ostentation of fashion, wealth, or power
> regarded as an occasion of empty pride or a vain show.”4 these are more superficial manifestations of
> the fundamental vanity of threes, that of the personality usurping the place of being, and we will
> explore them in detail.
> The superficial itself—the surface, what is seen, what is presented—is of utmost importance to
> threes. Appearance, in other words, is everything. How one’s shell looks and functions matters
> profoundly, since having the perfect image and performing flawlessly is what a three values. The
> presentation is more important than what lies behind it; the image one presents is the end in itself. The
> form matters more than the substance here. Translated in personal terms, what matters to a three is
> how she looks, what she achieves, and what she has. The animal associated with this ennea-type
> exemplifies this: The peacock, who, like a three, exhibits and struts his beautiful plumage to impress.
> Threes’ sense of self and of self-worth is inextricably linked up with their image, and it is difficult for
> them to see or to experience themselves as anything separate from it. What a three presents is, to
> them, who they are. So the central preoccupation for a three is to master the perfect image. This
> shaping of her soul into an image is reflected on the enneagram of antiself actions as self-imaging,
> which appears at point three, as we see on diagram 11. This shows up visually: There is often
> something masklike about a three’s face, having usually a broad, flat, and often sometimes even
> plastic quality to it.
> To so value your image, you must see yourself through the eyes of others. Preoccupation with
> image, then, implies relationship: How you look, what you achieve, and what you have are all relative
> to others. The image that threes try to shape themselves into perfectly is based on what others value
> and idealize. This image is not a personal one arising from inner values or ideals—although these are
> taken on as part of the image—but rather one arising from the values and ideals of one’s family or
> culture. Threes try to become this ideal, at least on the surface, and how well they achieve it
> determines their degree of success in their own eyes. The overarching image a three takes on changes
> as her milieu changes, and she adjusts it to achieve her ends and to be accepted by particular
> individuals. They are in this sense chameleons, taking on the colorings of their environment, so there
> is little that feels unique, creative, or original about threes. As personifications of collective ideals,
> threes are often very charismatic, mesmerizing, and captivating. A striking example of this was
> president john f. Kennedy.
> In psychological terminology what i have just described is the process of identification, and it is the
> defense mechanism of this ennea-type. In identification, “various attitudes, functions, and values of
> the other are integrated into a cohesive, effective identity and become fully functional parts of the self
> compatible with other parts.”5 what a three identifies with, they take themselves to be.
> Physical beauty, wealth, and power are generally what threes consider important because these are
> things most people consider important. Beauty contests, fashion shows, the movie scene, executive
> boardrooms, venture capital groups, junk bond trading, the advertising industry, and even the tabloids
> are all typical three venues. The entertainment industry abounds in threes. Stars of previous decades
> who are most likely threes include richard chamberlain, farrah fawcett, cheryl ladd, robert
> wagner, don johnson, diana ross, and tom selleck. More currently, we have cindy crawford,
> george clooney, pamela anderson, leonardo dicaprio, whitney houston, and perhaps holly hunter.
> Kristy yamaguchi, the olympic ice-skater, is probably also a three. Threes are the cheerleaders and
> pom-pom girls, the class president and homecoming king and queen, the california girl, the
> supermodel and movie star, the corporate ceo, the slick wall street trader, and perhaps most
> graphically, the advertising executive. Image consciousness is the packaging and marketing of
> oneself, the selling of oneself like a product. The proverbial snake oil salesman and used car dealer are
> less savory three archetypes.
> There are many variations in what image a three takes on, depending upon her social milieu. If
> involved in the religious right, for instance, a three will try to look and act pious and zealous. If
> involved in politics, a three will try to present the most politically correct face—aided by spin
> doctors, the masters of image manipulation and itself a three phenomenon. If involved in spiritual
> work, a three will try to manifest seamlessly the spiritual ideal of her tradition. And it is in this arena
> that image consciousness becomes most problematic, because experiences of essence and true nature
> only serve to expose and highlight the falsehood of a three’s front. Threes can be successful for a
> time in presenting a spiritually correct veneer, but in time reality must expose the sham for there to be
> true transformation. A case in point is werner erhard, the founder of est, who was dubbed the
> supersalesman of consciousness. He created a popular spiritual empire and made a fortune offering
> weekend courses that promised “getting it,” i.e., enlightenment. While what he preached emphasized
> truthfulness and familial reconciliation, his downfall was precipitated by his being exposed as overtly
> abusive to his wife, and in the course of investigations about it, his dubious financial dealings also
> came to light.
> In addition to shaping themselves into a cultural ideal, image consciousness also operates more
> subtly in threes. They are very aware of how they are coming across to others, and will modify what
> they are presenting to make the impact and achieve the result they want. Threes will suppress feelings,
> thoughts, and even sensations that don’t seem appropriate to a situation in order to present the correct
> image. Because of this tendency, those who know them may all experience them quite differently,
> since threes present to each something of themselves that the other person will like. With someone
> who values personal sharing, they will become emotionally disclosing, while with someone who
> values a businesslike attitude, they will be precise and hard-nosed. Becoming all things to all people,
> threes often feel that no one really knows them.
> Threes often feel somewhat impersonal to others. There is a lack of emotionality about them, a
> mechanicalness visible behind even a show of emotion. This is because their emotions are those of the
> image—those they think they should feel—rather than those coming from a deeper inner source.
> There is also something cool about threes, a kind of beautiful but untouchable and impenetrable
> facade. You have the sense that they are not personally relating to you but rather are relating to the
> image that you form of them. It is very difficult for them to tolerate being seen in a bad light by
> others. They will go to extremes to dispel a negative image another forms of them, even if it involves
> fabrications and duplicity, a subject we will explore in a few moments.
> They seem perpetually adolescent and youthful, with a boyish quality in the men and a cute ingenue
> quality in the women, which we see exemplified in tom cruise, robert redford, brooke shields, and
> christie brinkley. They tend to have sunny dispositions, presenting themselves as self-assured,
> buoyant, and confident. But this positive face is not based on a true optimism about life or trust in the
> goodness of humanity or of reality and is instead founded upon an anticipatory leaning toward
> personal success. There is nothing airy-fairy about their bright-eyed demeanor, since behind it lies the
> conviction that there is no hope or help beyond themselves and their own efforts. They are pragmatic,
> practical, matter-of-fact, facing reality coolly, with no complicating emotional reactions or moral
> compunctions, so that they can expediently meet and master the challenges life presents to them.
> Success—a very important word for threes—is defined here by how successful your image is, how
> seamless your performance is and what it has gotten you, as well as who you have impressed.
> Reaching your goals is far more important than personal relationships—unless they are the conquest
> (as in landing that famous/wealthy/powerful person) or are stepping-stones toward some
> accomplishment. There is a driven quality about threes that causes them to overexert, often
> neglecting themselves physically and emotionally in ordered to achieve something. They will
> subordinate eating, sleeping, and any feelings that might arise to the task at hand. It is very difficult
> for a three not to be active. Relaxing—unless it becomes a project in and of itself—is not easy for
> threes. Achieving things gives them a sense of value and meaning, so not doing means losing that. It
> also means that their world might crumble and put their survival in jeopardy. This is the typical
> workaholic syndrome, although it is important to remember that, while typical, overworking is not the
> sole domain of threes. It is also important to note that not all threes are successes, but they all strive
> to be.
> The drive of a three is at its roots an attempt to offset and avoid their core deficiency state, which
> usually lies buried in the unconscious: Feeling like a failure. There are a number of reasons why
> threes feel that they have failed. First, they fundamentally believe that their only value arises from
> the image they present and from their accomplishments, which means that who they are feels
> worthless to them. The soul knows that its outer mask and activities are only the external, and so there
> is a deep sense of personal failing that nothing else about oneself seems to be of worth. This might
> manifest as the belief that they failed to hold their mother’s love based solely on who they were rather
> than on what they could do. So the failure may be felt as not having been enough of a person to make
> mother care. Deeper still, we see that implicit in this sense of failure is a helplessness that is
> intolerable to threes: It is the sense of not having been able in childhood to make the environment
> hold them and also of not having been able to get their essential nature mirrored. This sense of
> helplessness can only have life if we believe we could have affected these things, which in fact none
> of us has any control over. Behind this is an even deeper sense of helplessness and failure for threes:
> The sense that they have not managed to stay connected to their depths. To the soul of a three,
> believing as they do that it is all up to them, this is their ultimate lack of success, and all of their outer
> achievements are at root an attempt to nullify this fundamental sense of failure.
> Feeling helpless, like a failure, or being unsuccessful in achieving a goal is avoided at all costs,
> even if it means lying to oneself and others—a subject we will return to. We see this reflected on the
> enneagram of avoidances, diagram 10, which you will find in appendix b, with failure appearing at
> point three. On the other hand, no success ever feels as though it is real or enough, since it is the
> image that is responsible for it. So the cycle continues of driving oneself on to greater and greater
> triumphs, none of which ever really brings a sense of satisfaction to a three’s soul.
> In their drive for success, threes can be relentless and ruthless. They often do not care who they use
> or step on to get where they are going, since the goal is far more important to them than another
> person. They are acutely conscious of who has the most beauty, wealth, power, and success; and they
> are unabashedly competitive about surpassing their rival and getting to the top. They are
> unequivocally ambitious and will tolerate no obstacles, inward or outward, in realizing their
> aspirations. There is nothing like a good contest or challenge to sharpen up their edge. They can be
> calculating, cutthroat, cunning, and heartless, exhibiting a steely determination to get what they want.
> This was graphically portrayed by the character of gordon gekko played by michael douglas in the
> film wall street, and also by al pacino’s portrayal of the devil as a slick executive in the devil’s
> advocate. To this end, they may badmouth others in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, slyly pushing the
> competition to the side. It is not that they are cruel or vindictive but rather that they are focused on
> winning and on triumph, and will allow no one and nothing to stand in their way, compelled by their
> inner imperative to avoid failure.
> A three’s superego exhorts her to do more and more, to be more efficient and faster at what she
> does, and above all else, to succeed in her ambitions. Her superego uses the threat of failure against
> her, convincing her that if she lets up, she will surely be a failure. Pushing and driving her onward, her
> superego is far more heartless and merciless toward her than she could ever be toward anyone else.
> Physical or emotional fatigue are not things her superego considers adequate reasons to stop her
> ceaseless activity, much less the simple human need for unstructured downtime. How she feels does
> not matter to her inner critic, only what she accomplishes, mimicking the message she internalized
> from her parents. Her superego also attacks her viciously for being phony, fake, insubstantial, and
> boring. So while insisting that she conform to the image others will approve of and like her for, she
> berates herself for her superficiality. Caught in this double bind, the focus on activity gets reinforced.
> Her superego contributes to her all-business-and-no-nonsense orientation, centered on the product
> rather than the process. Quality is subordinated to quantity, and effect takes priority over affect. To a
> great extent, threes’ sense of personal value is measured by how effective, competent, and productive
> they are, and they judge others using the same yardstick. Efficiency is a three’s trap, as we see on the
> enneagram of traps, diagram 9 in appendix b. They often project inefficiency onto others, believing
> that they can do things better and faster than anyone else and not trusting others to get the job done. So
> they often end up trying to do it all themselves, whatever the task at hand happens to be. They often
> don’t imagine that anyone could or would assist them, believing it’s all up to them. They try to do
> everything quickly, getting as much accomplished as possible, and often do many things at the same
> time. So things are rushed through, often not done thoroughly, and quality gets sacrificed.
> Modern life, which is progressively taking on more and more of a three-ish character, is replete
> with things designed to increase our efficiency. Fast-food restaurants are springing up all over the
> planet, where you can order and eat without leaving your car. Packaged meals, modern versions of the
> tv dinners of the fifties, are a staple in many people’s lives. Institutional cafeterias and take-out
> meals satisfy our physical needs while not slowing us down. We have cellular phones to carry
> everywhere with us so that we can always reach others and be reached, and televisions and even
> computers are now available in cars so that we miss nothing that is going on. This proliferation of
> technology that keeps us constantly in contact with the rest of the world is an interesting facsimile of
> the interconnectedness that is missing in a three’s consciousness.
> Prefabricated houses, utilitarian and functional, can be assembled quickly, creating instant
> neighborhoods. Malls and supermarkets make shopping for a variety of things efficient and quick.
> And freeways get us wherever we are going rapidly, sacrificing the quality of the journey for speed.
> Many of these innovations of contemporary life are american, our culture being an uneasy blend of
> one-ish morality and puritan ethics, and three-ish amoral expediency and personal ambition. The rest
> of the world emulates and often outdoes our packaging and promotion of the image and our headlong
> rush to success. Clothes and shoes with designer labels prominently displayed carry the three
> message that you are what you wear. The wrapping substitutes for the substance, the surface for the
> depth. Silk flowers and plastic lawn animals imitate and replace life. Karaoke bars let you pretend that
> you are actually singing the song.
> Pretense, falseness, and shallowness are words that often arise describing the feel of a three, and
> this leads us to exploring the passion of this ennea-type, lying, as we see on the enneagram of
> passions in diagram 2. The deepest lie a three tells herself is that the personality is paramount; and in
> supporting it, she deceives both herself and others about what is truly real—real about herself and real
> about the nature of reality. This level of deceit is of course common to all those who are identified
> with their personality, which is most of humanity. It is the most dangerous form of deception because
> we believe it.
> Although lying to themselves about who they really are is the deepest lie, many other varieties of
> lying are particular to ennea-type threes. There are outright lies that a three is consciously telling—
> about her feelings, her past, her motives, about what really happened, what was said and by whom, and
> so forth. These lies are about getting the job done, getting what she wants, and impressing others as
> well as avoiding defeat or being perceived as failing, negligent, inefficient, or inept. There are the
> “little white lies” that are so much a part of conventional life, like “i never got the message that you
> called,” or “don’t you look wonderful,” when that is not at all what happened or what a three feels.
> There are those in which the truth is stretched, twisted, or varnished to give it a different look. There
> are exaggerations, inflations, and embellishments of the truth. Things are fabricated and trumped up to
> create a particular impression or picture. Particular aspects of the truth may be highlighted, blown up,
> or enlarged upon, distorting the overall impression. All of these shades of lying are for a three about
> creating and preserving a particular image both to herself and to others, which she feels she must do,
> and much of the prevarication is unconscious—she often actually believes she is telling the truth at
> the time.
> This is another area that makes inner work very slippery for a three. They very often do not know
> where the truth leaves off and the lie begins. The biggest deception is a self-deception about her inner
> reality, and hence self-deception occupies point three on the enneagram of lies, diagram 12. It is
> sometimes difficult for threes to separate out what they think they ought to feel, think, or believe, and
> what is actually the case for them. The identification with their role or function may be so complete
> that there is no internal space for any disparities. Unlike the other two image types, ennea-types two
> and four, a three’s identification with her image is so total that she believes it is who she is. We
> might say of threes what holly golightly’s manager says of her in breakfast at tiffany’s, “she’s a
> real phony.” like perpetual method actors who never leave the stage, threes become the role they are
> playing, forgetting that it is only a performance and believing it is who they are. This inextricable
> linkage between self and image, and self and function is another variety of lie. A three may be so
> successful at convincing others that she is deeply religious or profoundly spiritually realized,
> gathering around herself numerous devoted followers, that she believes it herself and begins to think
> that she is beyond the mores and strictures that apply to others. If a three’s arena is business, she may
> be so influential and revered that she skirts the edge of the law, putting together deals or having affairs
> that she honestly believes will not, and cannot, have personal consequences.
> The body part associated with point three is the thymus gland, and understanding its significance
> may help us comprehend something about what is necessary for a three to evolve spiritually. The
> thymus is an organ of the lymphatic system located just behind the breastbone. While little is known
> about the actual functioning of the thymus, it is very important for the human immune system and
> needs to be present at birth for an infant to be healthy. It is most active in utero and during childhood;
> and as part of the immune system, it helps to distinguish “nonself ” or foreign tissue and to attack
> malignant cells, fungal and viral infection, and bacteria.
> Translating this in terms of consciousness, this tells us that discriminating what is oneself and what
> is nonself is crucial for a three’s development. A three must first of all turn inward, no easy task for
> one whose sense of self resides in her reflection in the eyes of others and who subordinates inner
> experience to outer achievements. She needs to stop long enough to begin to face her inner truth—
> herself as she is—and this is where the virtue of point three, veracity, comes into play. We find it on
> the enneagram of virtues in diagram 1. Ichazo’s definition of veracity is as follows: “a healthy body
> can only express its own being; it cannot lie because it cannot be anything other than what it is.” the
> word veracity has a few different meanings, all of which are relevant to the transformation and
> development of a three. It means devotion to the truth, the power to convey or perceive truth,
> accuracy in the sense of conforming to truth or fact, and something true. In the following, we will
> discuss some of the highlights of a three’s inner journey to becoming an embodiment of truth.
> For a three to become veracious in the sense of being devoted to the truth, which is one definition
> of spiritual work, she will have to see how she lies to herself. This is the beginning of being truthful.
> The first level of lie she will have to confront is her belief that she is what she does. Only by
> understanding how dependent her self-esteem is upon her performance can she seriously begin to step
> off the stage and deal with her inner life. This will mean facing how little value she has to herself if
> she is not achieving something, which in turn will reveal the underpinnings of that attitude—the
> formative factors in her early childhood that left her with the conviction that she has no inherent value
> just as a person. She will probably have to reexperience how little real contact and love touched her
> soul as a child, and how the majority of attention she received was for her accomplishments, not for
> what she was feeling or even thinking about. She will see that just as her inner life received little
> notice or value from her parents, so, too, she ceased paying attention to her inner world. Inquiring into
> this will probably bring up a great deal of grief and pain for having so completely turned away from
> her soul.
> The more she pays attention to herself, the more she will begin to perceive the extent of her
> identification with her image. She will discover how little of a gap there is between the face she
> presents and anything else going on inside of herself. This is a particularly painful juncture for a
> three. It brings up feelings of superficiality and shallowness, and is fertile ground for her superego to
> give her a very difficult time. It has probably already been on her case for slowing down to look at
> herself in the first place. Here it attacks her for being so insubstantial and empty. If she can defend
> against its attacks and persevere in exploring her inner reality, she will see how extensive her
> identification with familial and cultural ideals has been. She will see how profoundly she has molded
> herself into the form of those ideals, to the extent that there is little left of her outside of that shape.
> She may find that she does not really know what she herself wants or feels outside of what she thinks
> she should, and more troubling still, that she does not even know how to begin asking herself those
> questions.
> The degree of inner emptiness that will arise as she faces the extent of her identification with her
> image is profound. Because so much of her psyche and her life force have been invested in the image,
> there is so little else of her soul left for her to turn toward. So a yawning abyss faces her as her soul
> begins to let go of the investment in this façade. Because of this, threes may have the most
> objectively painful inner journey of all of the ennea-types. If the image is a lie, what else does she
> have? This is a very difficult inner confrontation. She also doesn’t feel that she can really rely on
> herself in this part of her inner terrain, because her sense of what is real and what is the truth is so
> changeable and untrustworthy. This is a problem that follows her throughout her inner work:
> Discerning what is really true for her and what is the spin she has given things. So just like her holding
> environment as a young child, which felt profoundly unsupportive to her and left her with the belief
> that the only holding she will ever find will come from her own hands, she finds herself at this
> juncture to be undependable as well.
> The other problem that dogs her process is her knee-jerk tendency to want to see results right away.
> She wants what she is discovering about herself to be useful—she wants her development to help her
> in her work in the world or in her relationships. She tends to try to package it and market it so that she
> will make some kind of profit from it, either materially or in the form of accolades for being so
> spiritually evolved. Most of all, she wants some payoff, rather than having to face the chasm of her
> inner emptiness, which looks distinctly unrewarding.
> The emptiness brings up the dreaded feelings of defeat, the sense that despite all of her best efforts,
> she could not shape herself into god. This is the heart of her vanity as we have seen—her belief that
> she could bring about through her own efforts all of the plentitude and fulfillment of being. On the
> face of it, that may sound like a ridiculous self-expectation, but for a three, it is not. It is how she
> really feels deep down—the source of her feelings of failure and helplessness—whether conscious or
> not. Somewhere in her inner journey, this impossible demand on herself will have to emerge into
> consciousness and be seen for the absurdity that it is. She will see how all of her ceaseless doing has
> its roots in this vain attempt, in both senses of the word.
> She will also see that her attempt to replicate god has been defensive, keeping her from having to
> face her disconnection from being. Her endless activity has really been an escape from the huge
> empty place that feels to her like the entirety of her soul, which has resulted from her estrangement
> from her depths. She will see that she has taken this emptiness where she has lost contact with her
> essence to be who she is, and so she felt little choice but to flee from it and do everything she could to
> replicate what she had lost. Compassion for herself will gradually arise as she understands this, and
> her heart will begin to become part of the picture for her. As her heart opens to herself, the emptiness
> will cease to feel as hopeless and frightening. Facing the truth of it and allowing herself to experience
> it fully, it will transform into a spaciousness that is profoundly still and peaceful. In time, all of the
> radiant colors and qualities of her essential nature will arise out of this inner space and display
> themselves in all their glory, like a cosmic peacock that her personality has been so busy imitating.
> In the process, as she makes repeated forays into her inner reality, she will progressively feel more
> real, and less like a fake person. Rather than being only conscious of and living from the surface of the
> soul and feeling that there is nothing more to her, she will gradually feel more and more substantial
> and authentic. She will gradually stop living through images projected and experienced of herself; and
> veracity will become more and more of her lived experience. She will differentiate progressively from
> familial, societal, and cultural images and ideals, knowing where they stop and she begins.
> The inner sense of being a phony, a fabrication, an imitation of a person, gives way to a sense of
> simplicity, naturalness, and genuineness. Her soul will become more and more transparent to the
> depths within herself, and her actions will bit by bit express and be informed by objective reality—her
> essential nature. She will find in time that she is not a someone who experiences essence but that she
> is essence. And little by little she will find herself feeling part of the fabric of the universe, a beautiful
> form within it, and will finally feel in harmony with the truth. She will become more and more of a
> real person, a conscious manifestation and embodiment of being, and at long last she will really walk
> her talk—indeed becoming a pearl beyond price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> type 4
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fours are dramatic, emotive, romantic, and seem to suffer more than the other types. There is often a
> tragic quality about fours, arising from an inner hopelessness about ever being truly content. It is as
> though they are eternally pining for a lost connection that has been missing as long as they have been
> alive, and the inner grief seems inconsolable and forever unchangeable. In some fours, this
> melancholy is obvious, while other fours appear very upbeat and exuberant. The zeal behind such a
> four’s efforts to present herself as buoyant and optimistic, however, belies the despair underneath this
> façade.
> Fours want to be seen as unique, original, aesthetic, and creative; and being one of the image types
> —those on either side of and including ennea-type three—present themselves in this way. They value
> their refined taste and sensitivity, which they usually feel is deeper and more profound than that of
> others. While they often seem superior and standoffish, inwardly they feel socially insecure, afraid of
> not being loved and included. They tend to feel alone and abandoned, estranged and not really
> reachable by others. Their primary focus is usually on relationship, which more often than not is
> fraught with problems and frustrations. They long for connection with others, but satisfying
> relationships always seem to elude them. Others appear to have more fulfilling lives and relationships
> than they do, and so they experience a great deal of envy. How they are and how others are is never
> quite right, and they yearn for things to be different.
> The lost vantage point on reality—the holy idea—underlying this ennea-type is holy origin.
> Depending upon our degree of consciousness, we can understand this holy idea in different ways. If
> we take who we are to be our bodies and so are primarily identified with physical reality, holy origin
> tells us that all of life originates from a common source and obeys shared natural laws. In terms of a
> common source on the physical level, the big bang theory postulates that the entire universe was
> generated in one giant cosmic explosion, and so all that exists has its roots in this moment of creation.
> Universal principles that govern all of life are recognized in astro- and subatomic physics, in biology,
> as well as in the sciences that specifically deal with human beings: Sociology, anthropology,
> psychology, and so on. Celestial phenomena in distant galaxies obey the same laws of physics as
> phenomena in our own solar system and on our own planet. Life on earth is currently understood as
> originating from a common spark igniting in the primordial soup, so on a physical level, all of nature
> appears to have a collective source. All human beings are born and develop physically in the same
> way regardless of ethnicity or culture, and all are subject to the same genetic and biological laws.
> While each of our faces and bodies is slightly different and therefore unique, the overarching physical
> blueprint is nonetheless the same. So from the most universal physical phenomena right down to our
> own bodies, all of matter is united by collective principles.
> At another level of consciousness, when we know ourselves to be more than our physical form and
> recognize that it is our soul that inhabits and animates our body, we understand holy origin as saying
> that all human beings share this characteristic. To know ourselves to be something beyond the
> physical is to recognize the realm of spirit as part of our existence. The recognition of soul as our
> nature, then, leads us to the spirit of which each soul is a part. We see here, then, on this level of
> understanding holy origin, that being is the source out of which all individual souls arise. So while
> each of us is a unique soul, we all have as our fundamental ground the realm of true nature. On this
> level, not only is being or true nature seen as the wellspring of the human soul but it is also seen as
> the source of all of manifestation. Everything, then, is seen here to originate out of being, and to
> return to it when that manifestation ends. Our orientation at this level is with ourselves as separate
> entities whose inner nature arises from a source common to all that exists.
> Beyond this comprehension of holy origin is another level grounded in the realization that all of
> manifestation not only arises out of being but is in fact inseparable from it. At this stage of perception
> and understanding, everything that exists is experienced as differentiations of being itself, and so the
> form and the source are indistinguishable. Another way of saying this is that all manifestation is seen
> as ripples arising on the surface of one thing, and we know ourselves to be inseparable from it. Here
> we do not experience ourselves as rooted in being and arising out of it, but rather as being itself. Here
> we are not connected to being—we are being. We are the origin. At this level then, our identification
> is with being itself, rather than with our separate embodiment or manifestation of it.
> Just as our understanding of holy origin reaches more and more inclusive levels, so our
> understanding of being also becomes progressively deeper. Our experience of being begins with
> experiencing it as essence, the inner nature of ourselves, and culminates with experiencing it as the
> absolute, a state beyond conceptualization and even consciousness. When we experience everything
> as being at the level of the absolute, we are experiencing a huge paradox unsolvable by the mind:
> Arising and nonarising are indistinguishable. It becomes impossible to talk about an origin out of
> which forms arise, since manifestation and nonmanifestation are the same thing at this level. To
> perceive things from this depth is to be in touch with a profound mystery.
> As we have discussed, the holy ideas are not states of consciousness or specific experiences but
> rather different angles or dimensions of understanding derived from direct experience. Specific types
> of experiences, however, give rise to these nine different ways of understanding reality. These types of
> experiences are those of the idealized aspect. This may sound complicated, but if we understand this
> in relation to point four, it will become clear. Experientially, contact with the perception of reality
> that is signified by holy origin arises from being centered within oneself. When we feel centered in
> ourselves, we feel connected to and in contact with what we consider to be our source. Just as our
> understanding of holy origin reaches increasing levels of depth, our sense of what that source is will
> vary as our sense of who we take this “i” to be deepens.
> Initially we may feel united with ourselves when we are strongly in touch with our bodies, feeling
> ourselves to be fully “in” our bodies—deeply in touch with our physical sensations and immersed in
> them. This sense of contact with ourselves, which is grounded in the body, is for many people the
> impetus for physical activity ranging from participating in vigorous sports to working out at a gym,
> and many people do not “feel like themselves” without it. In addition to physiological reasons such as
> the release of endorphins, exercise also gets us out of our thoughts and more in contact with our
> immediate experience, and so we feel more in touch with ourselves. However, this level of access to
> ourselves is time restricted and health determined: Illness or physical disability and the inevitability
> of aging will severely limit this physically dependent way of coming into contact with ourselves.
> Others feel in touch with themselves when they are fully feeling their emotions. Emotional
> catharsis can lead to a sense of inner connection, especially for those who have difficulty accessing
> and/or expressing their emotions. Such emotional release is very useful and necessary at the particular
> stage of inner work when we are dealing with our emotional repression and inhibition, but once we
> have access to our feelings and ease in expressing them, continual catharsis can be unproductive.
> Many people become addicted to venting emotionally because it provides a quick high and makes
> them feel connected with themselves. Since emotions are the feelings of the personality—when in
> being we do not experience emotional states as we normally think of them—in time this dependency
> on emotional expression and discharge only serves to support our identification with the personality.
> Because emotions appear to be the key to making contact with ourselves at this level, we also take
> them as definitive and do not question our reactions, and so stay attached to them. On the other hand,
> moving into and through our emotions without holding on to them can lead us beyond the personality
> and into the realm of being, and this is part of the reason that emotional access is necessary for our
> spiritual unfoldment. It is also necessary if we are to do the hard work of fully digesting and
> transforming the personality rather than merely rising above it.
> As our development progresses, to feel truly in contact with ourselves means to be in touch with
> being. At this stage in our unfoldment, when we feel engulfed in physical sensation because of pain or
> illness and cannot get beyond it, we do not feel in contact with ourselves. When we are in the midst of
> an emotional upheaval, we also do not feel in contact with ourselves. Only when we are profoundly in
> the moment and our consciousness is anchored in its depths do we feel that we have arrived at our
> center. At this stage, we know ourselves to be being.
> This experience of ourselves as being is called the point or the essential self in the language of the
> diamond approach, and it is the idealized aspect of point four. It is the level of contacting ourselves
> described above, in which we know ourselves to be being. Rather than identifying ourselves with our
> body or our personality and its emotions and reactions, we know that who we really are is true nature.
> This experience is that which is referred to in spiritual literature as self-realization, awakening, or
> enlightenment—which are all different ways of describing the experience of coming to consciousness
> about who we really are.1 the personality style of ennea-type four is an attempt to replicate the point;
> it is the personality’s facsimile of it. We shall return to this after exploring the psychodynamics of
> this type.
> For an ennea-type four, loss of contact with being in early childhood is synonymous with the
> loss of perceiving and experiencing herself as inseparable from and arising out of being. What results
> is a profound inner sense of disconnection from the divine, which is the underlying all-pervasive
> belief or fixation of this type, described as melancholy on diagram 2. In order to experience ourselves
> as disconnected from anything, we must take ourselves to be a separate something that has lost its
> connection to a separate something else. The apparently inevitable identification with the body, which
> is the deepest identification a human being rooted in the personality has, leads to the conviction of our
> fundamental separateness for those of all ennea-types. In other words, because each of our bodies is
> distinct from everything else, we come to believe that we are all ultimately discrete entities. While
> fundamental to all personality types, this belief is the foundation upon which all of the resulting
> assumptions and characteristics rest for ennea-type fours due to their particular sensitivity to holy
> origin.
> Like a boat loosed from its moorings, the inner experience of a four is of being a separate someone
> who is cut off from being and set adrift. There is a poignant inner sense of disconnection and
> estrangement from others but, more important, from the depths within. This loss of contact with being
> is experienced by a four as having been abandoned, as though being has withdrawn or withheld itself.
> Initially this is experienced as though her mother or family has pulled away from her, but at root is
> loss of contact with being. What is left is a sense of lack and of lostness, which feels as though the
> very substance of herself were missing. There is a great longing to reconnect, to become anchored
> again in the connection that has been lost.
> This sense of abandonment and of longing to reestablish the link with being, however unconscious,
> is central to the psychology of a four. It is so central that a four’s whole sense of self is constructed
> around it, to the point that longing becomes more important than getting, and people or situations that
> offer constancy and relatedness are often unconsciously undermined and rejected by fours. Fours
> unconsciously cling to the experience of themselves as forsaken, perpetuating this deep inner sense.
> Since one of the propensities of human psychology is to experience the mothering person of infancy
> as the embodiment of being, the inevitable disruptions of contact with her become synonymous to a
> four with disconnection from that source, being. Filtered through the four’s sensitivity to holy
> origin, mother, who is the source of nourishment and survival to an infant, is experienced as detached,
> disengaged, or absent altogether. There may indeed have been actual abandonment, neglect, desertion,
> not having been properly cared for, and subtle or overt rejection by mother. Such experiences are not
> limited to fours, of course, but because of their sensitivity to being cut off from the source, such
> experiences become focal and lead to their predisposition to view others as inevitably abandoning.
> The main inner mood of fours is a sad and heavy sense of lack, a feeling of being cast away, and an
> inconsolable and insatiable longing, as though they are in perpetual mourning for the connection that
> has been lost. Hence ichazo gave this type the name ego-melancholy. This sense of lack may be
> experienced as a feeling of scarcity, a sense of deprivation, of meagerness, of an inner poverty or
> destitution, of a crying inner neediness. A four may not know or be able to put her finger on exactly
> what it is that she lacks, but she is convinced that something is definitely missing. At the core is a
> profound despair that she will ever be reconnected or included in god’s love. She will always be on
> the outside and will never know how to get in. Everyone else has the secret, but it has been denied to
> her. Her grief about this lostness is dangerous to feel: It might throw her into the despair or make her
> feel ordinary. We will return to the latter momentarily. So, on the enneagram of avoidances, diagram
> 10, despair (lost)/simple sadness appears at point four.
> Compounding this feeling of privation is the assumption, conscious or unconscious, that it is her
> fault that the connection to the lost paradise—however that is conceived—was severed. She may feel
> that her very needs and longing for connection were the problem, or the sense of deficiency may take
> on an assumption of badness, of insufficiency, of inadequacy, and of being fatally flawed, which for
> some fours reaches the point of feeling that there is something inherently evil or poisonous about
> them. There is a tragic and absolute quality of finality about this sense, as though it were irreparable
> and in the end nothing can be said or done to take this badness away.
> The sense of lostness may feel like a disorientation, a sense of not really knowing where she is or
> how she got there, the sense of not really being connected to anyone or anything, but especially a
> sense of being disconnected from herself. There is a sense of living on the periphery of life compared
> to others, with no sense of orientation or direction. Some fours seem perpetually spaced out, a bit
> dazed, glazed, and not fully in the present moment. Some fours have no physical sense of direction
> and get lost even if they have been somewhere repeatedly. Some fours constantly bump into things or
> people, lacking a physical perception of space that includes all of the objects within it.
> Reconnection, the longed-for resolution to the inner scarcity, is sought externally. To a four, it is as
> though all that is positive resides outside of herself. This longing to be filled by others and by what the
> external world offers is not a passive and quiet desire—it is a demand, no matter how unexpressed. It
> is as though the four were saying, “i feel that i must have it and so i should have it.” while this sense
> of entitlement is not restricted to this ennea-type, all fours have it relative to some aspect of their
> lives. It appears that they believe that unless they insist upon what they want, they will not receive.
> Also conveyed in the entitlement is the sense that since they have been so deprived and have suffered
> so much, the world owes it to them to meet their desires. Deeper still, the entitlement is a way of not
> experiencing the intolerable inner sense of lack.
> Once her desires have been fulfilled, however, the sought-after object begins to lose its appeal and
> her longing shifts elsewhere. Looking outside of herself for satisfaction inherently offers only limited
> gratification, since only reconnection with her depths will resolve the four’s sense of lack. Nothing
> and no one can ever fill the inner deficit completely, and so the four is left in a perpetual state of
> discontent. However to a four the fault often appears to lie in the sought-after object. It is not that
> “this longing cannot be filled externally so no wonder i am not satisfied” but rather “there is
> something wrong with the person or the thing i desire, or maybe he or it wasn’t what i really wanted
> anyway.”
> the four blames the object of her desire, finding flaws and imperfections that justify the lack of
> fulfillment, and the object is pushed away. Or once a desired object has been obtained, the four’s
> focus moves on to what else is not right in her life or what else needs to be acquired. Unsatisfied,
> ungratified, and displeased, nothing is ever quite right to a four. What she has or procures always
> loses its shine, and the longing shifts to what is just out of reach. Things could always be a little
> different, a little better, more of this or of that, and then perhaps, just perhaps, she could be happy at
> last. But happiness for a four is ephemeral, something inevitably spoils it, and the longing for
> fulfillment begins again. This pattern belies the professed desire for happiness, and we see that
> beneath the surface what the four really wants is to maintain her identity as someone who longs and
> does not get.
> The perpetual faultfinding and longing of fours keeps their gaze focused externally and so protects
> them from their inner sense of deficiency. If nothing fulfills, they must keep searching for the perfect
> thing that will bring them contentment, and then they never have to face the truth that anything
> external cannot provide the satisfaction they desire. If this truth were faced, the inner attitude of
> longing and desiring would have to be given up, and some pretty painful inner feelings would have to
> be felt.
> Longing connects them with the lost beloved of childhood—being filtered through mother. In the
> deep recesses of the soul, to let go of longing would mean letting go of this beloved, and this would
> mean being truly lost, adrift, and without hope of redemption. So the addiction to desiring and
> yearning for what is just beyond her grasp keeps the four in contact with this beloved. It also makes
> fours incurable romantics, raising them above ordinary life through the idealism and nobility of their
> quest—at least in their own psyches. They thus remain loyal to the lost beloved and in this convoluted
> way attempt to stay connected with being.
> Just as fours experience themselves as abandoned by others, so they in turn abandon themselves
> through this frustrating yet relentless external longing for fulfillment. With the inner conviction of
> their own inherent badness or, at best, paucity, they long for intimacy and closeness with others and
> yet it is difficult to allow. To really open up and be vulnerable would mean revealing the inner sense
> of lack and of badness, and then they believe they would surely be abandoned, repeating the initial
> intolerable wounding. So although fours profess to long for closeness, they tend to keep themselves
> and others at arm’s length. It is far safer to long from a distance and to feel the sweet sadness of
> unrequited love than actually to risk exposure. Relationships consequently are difficult for a four; a
> source of bruised feelings and the inescapable feeling that love is being withheld. Nonetheless, or
> perhaps therefore, relationship is a central focus for fours, and the stormier the relationship, the more
> appealing. The typical pattern of a four’s relationships is attraction to someone unavailable
> emotionally or otherwise, intense encounters, sudden breaks, longing, reconciliations, only to repeat
> the cycle again and again.
> What they don’t have looks better to fours than what they do have. What others have looks better to
> them than what they have. What others are seems better to them then how they are. Others appear to
> have what they do not—whether actual possessions or personal attributes. The grass, as the saying
> goes, is always greener on the other side of the fence. The passion, then, is envy, as we see on the
> enneagram of passions in diagram 2. The passion of envy runs the gamut from simply wanting
> something that someone else has to a malicious hatred toward the object of desire. “if i see another
> blonde, i’m going to kill her,” is the way a four friend of mine, a dark-haired beauty, once
> characterized the hatred in her envy. On the subtlest level, the envy manifests as a wish to be
> experiencing something different internally, something that seems better and more desirable than
> what is happening at the moment.
> Through her theoretical formulations, the psychoanalyst melanie klein, probably herself a four,
> gave envy a position of central importance in understanding psychopathology and in working with the
> most intractable psychoanalytic patients—those who seemed not to benefit from the experience. In
> typical four fashion, her work created a schism in the british psychoanalytic society, which to date
> has not been resolved; in the words of jay greenberg and stephen mitchell, “amid the swirl of
> controversies and antipathies surrounding klein’s contributions, there is understandably little
> consensus either as to the precise nature of her views or to her place within the history of
> psychoanalytic ideas.”2 it is difficult to tell whether her phantasmagoric descriptions of the
> destructive and vindictive inner world of the infant are accurate, or whether they are the overlays of an
> adult consciousness with a distinctly four-ish skew. Regardless of how accurate her perceptions are in
> a generic sense in the realm of developmental psychology, her understanding gives us great insight
> into the psychology of this ennea-type.
> Again, to quote greenberg and mitchell, klein “suggests that early, primitive envy represents a
> particularly malignant and disastrous form of innate aggression. All other forms of hatred in the child
> are directed - toward the bad objects.... Envy, by contrast, is hatred directed toward good objects. The
> child experiences the goodness and nurturance which the mother provides but feels it to be insufficient
> and resents the mother’s control over it. The breast releases the milk in limited amounts and then goes
> away. In the child’s phantasy, klein suggests, the breast is felt to be hoarding the milk for its own
> purposes.... As a consequence of envy the infant destroys the good objects, splitting is undone, and
> there is a subsequent increase in persecutory anxiety and terror. Envy destroys the possibility for
> hope.”3 we will return to the subject of hope and hopelessness later, as it is particularly relevant to
> understanding the psychology of fours. Missing in klein’s understanding of infant envy is the
> interpersonal element—that the child, whose identity is still merged with her mother, is responding as
> the four experiences her mother—as hateful and vindictive. A four’s experience of her childhood is
> often that her mother would not let her shine or occupy a place of central importance, and was
> competitive and envious of her.
> Implicit in the envy is a pushing away and a rejection of what the four has or is experiencing. This
> has its roots in the particular flavor of superego characteristic of fours. They have a vicious superego
> that is constantly measuring them up against an idealized picture of how and what they ought to be,
> and tearing them apart for not making the grade. Naranjo has observed that as an image type,
> belonging to the corner of the enneagram whose hallmark is excessive concern about one’s
> presentation, “the ennea-type iv individual identifies with that part of the psyche that fails to fit the
> idealized image, and is always striving to achieve the unattainable.” 4 identified as they are with the
> part of themselves that doesn’t fit their inner picture of how and what they ought to be, they are
> continually at the mercy of the barbs and taunts of their inner accuser. Unlike the superego of ones,
> the issue here is, as naranjo says, “more aesthetic than ethical”5 in the sense that it is the presentation
> that counts: The superego of a four does not berate her for being fundamentally a bad person but rather
> for being somehow wrong and therefore not displaying an ideal image. Nothing that they do or feel
> seems good enough or even right to their inner judge who is cutting, disparaging, reproachful, and
> inevitably hypercritical. The degree of maliciousness and venom that fours can display toward others
> is minimal compared to what they heap on themselves. This pattern is rooted in holding themselves
> responsible for and savagely attacking themselves for their inner sense of disconnection. Their
> aggression, then, is usurped by their superegos and directed against themselves. In the extreme, this
> can lead to a profound and ongoing self-hatred arising from the unshakable conviction that she is a
> failure as a person.
> This rather brutal self-rejection and self-hatred is part of the picture contributing to the depressive
> tendency that typifies fours. While fours are not by any means the only ennea-type who experiences
> depression, the pull in that direction is inexorable because of the inner forces at work. The quality of
> depression characteristic of fours is of a profound inner blackness in which life appears unbearable
> and unendurable, and in which the self appears, in freud’s terms, “poor and empty.”6 everything—
> particularly themselves—seems completely hopeless. Aggression is turned in upon themselves.
> In psychoanalytic theory, a number of factors are involved in depression—all of which are relevant
> to this ennea-type. The first is some kind of loss or failure of relationship with the mothering person
> of early childhood, a period in which the sense of self is developing and is fragile at best. The second
> is an overzealous superego. Turning to the first factor, because mother and self are not fully
> discriminated in the child’s consciousness, loss of relatedness with mother is experienced as both the
> loss of her and the loss of self. Margaret mahler believed that the particular developmental phase
> involved at the root of depression is that of rapprochement, at around fifteen months to the age of two,
> in which the child is developing a separate sense of self and of his capacities but still needs merger
> and contact with mother. She attributed failure on the mother’s part to accept and understand the
> child’s alternating drive during this period toward expansion and freedom from her and his sudden
> needs for “refueling” contact with her. She believed that this leads to ambivalence and aggression
> toward mother, loss of self-esteem, and eventually to depression. It also leads to a perpetual looking to
> others to shore up one’s self-esteem.
> Gertrude blanck and rubin blanck explain freud’s theory on depression thus: “the essential
> difference between normal mourning (grief) and melancholia (depression) is that, in the first instance
> the object has been loved and lost, and in the second, love is overridden by aggression.”7 grief at the
> loss of an object does not usually involve self-recriminations and loss of a sense of one’s own value.
> In depression, however,
> loss of such an object is tantamount to loss of part of the self-image; the depressed person may
> identify with the lost object in an attempt to recapture what has been lost. In that case his or her selfcriticisms
> are derived from criticisms originally directed toward the emotionally significant person,
> either the one lost or one connected with the loss. The self-criticism is therefore an expression of
> anger that was part of the original ambivalent attitude - toward the object when it was present.8
> in depression, then, aggression that was originally felt relative to the lost object becomes directed
> toward oneself in the form of the superego.
> Other factors involved in depression are failure to live up to ego ideals and a sense of powerlessness
> and hopelessness about something in particular or life in general. Here we see again the four’s pitting
> of herself against impossible inner pictures of how she ought to be, as well as an often-concomitant
> sense of inability to achieve what she believes she ought to be able to. The attitude of envy is implicit
> in this—desiring what one does not have and trying to be what one is not. For this reason, simulation,
> posturing and projecting the desired appearance, is at point four on the enneagram of lies, diagram
> 12. The hopelessness inherent in depression is not a giving up of hope but rather it is a sense of failing
> to attain or get what one desires. If you truly let go of hoping for something, a sense of neutrality and
> of peacefulness arises. Seeking and striving cease. On the other hand, when you feel hopeless about
> something, you are clinging tenaciously to what you want, and feeling despair about not getting it.
> The heart of a four’s hopelessness is about not measuring up to the idealized inner picture of how
> or what she ought to be. Inherent in it is the firm conviction that she is not okay as she is and that she
> should match this ideal. Fueling this is the unconscious hope that if she did match the idealized inner
> image, perhaps the lost object would return. There is no giving up or letting go of this image of
> perfection but rather a tenacious holding on to it and a resulting sense of despair for not attaining it.
> What results is a despondency that feels dark, melancholic, and tortured. It is this dismal and smarting
> hopelessness that colors a four’s emotional state.
> Also implicit in the holding on to the four’s ego ideal of perfection is the defense mechanism
> associated with this type by naranjo, that of introjection. Introjection refers to the incorporation of
> some of the qualities, attitudes, or characteristics of the loved object into one’s own psyche. In the
> case of fours, what is incorporated is the ego ideal and the resulting superego demands, punishments,
> and rewards of the parents, particularly mother. While it may at first glance seem far-fetched to
> consider a four holding on to her sniping and hateful superego as a defense mechanism, if we see this
> as a way of avoiding complete inner loss of the object and consequently of the sense of self, it
> becomes more understandable. It is for this reason that blanck and blanck criticize the therapeutic
> technique they call “the reversible raincoat method” of treating depression in which the patient is
> encouraged to externalize his or her inner aggression: The whole inner economy of the depressive
> person in which aggression is directed toward oneself is a way of preserving contact with the object,
> and so externalizing one’s anger and hatred is tantamount to the psyche to losing the beloved object. It
> is also for this reason, as we have discussed, that while fours may feel miserable and profess to long
> for happiness, it is - really their suffering that they cling to, since through it they maintain connection
> with the lost object. Only through understanding this dynamic and getting in touch with the love for
> the object underlying it can this painful pattern begin to dissolve.
> Introjection also manifests in other ways in fours: They incorporate parts of those they love and
> admire. They take on and mimic their speech patterns and turns of phrase, their style of dress, ways of
> eating, thinking, and behaving; they adopt their forms of exercise—or lack thereof—and their
> attitudes and mannerisms.
> Some fours are more depressive, while others seem perpetually cheerful with a kind of manic
> ferocity, as mentioned at the beginning of this chapter. Others alternate between these two extremes of
> behavior. On the manic side, fours stay very busy trying to find and fill themselves with things that
> will obviate the internal melancholy and provide some emotional stimulation, in the form of
> tempestuous relationships, interpersonal dramas, entertainment, work, acquisitions, and so on. This
> type of four appears happy, but there is a forcedness to their vibrancy, a sense that they have to appear
> positive, vivacious, and energetic. Whether high or low or moving back and forth between these
> emotional extremes, common to all styles of fours is emotional intensity. The mundane and ordinary
> are spurned in favor of excitement and emotional amplification. We will go into this more later.
> Because of the inner dynamics that we have been exploring, shame figures largely in the
> psychology of fours. Shame “refers to a broad spectrum of painful affects—embarrassment,
> humiliation, mortification, and disgrace—that accompany the feeling of being rejected, ridiculed,
> exposed, or of losing the respect of others.”9 fully being, expressing, and exposing oneself is the
> source of shame for fours, since who they are does not match how they think they should be. This
> makes it extremely difficult for fours to reveal something they feel, think, or believe that doesn’t fit
> their image of perfection. They anticipate that the external world will shame them, which is a
> projection of the shame that they experience internally at the hands of their superego. For many fours,
> the fear of being seen as improper, inappropriate, flawed, and defective forms a constant
> preoccupation in relation to others.
> To avoid the disgrace and resulting loss of self-respect that they fear will result from exposing
> themselves, many fours withdraw, becoming aloof and distant, and holding themselves apart from
> others. Their movement away is usually blamed on those they are isolating themselves from, and
> perpetuates their sense of estrangement. They also become reserved, revealing little about themselves
> and coming across to others as very composed, private, and constrained. They become, in a word, selfcontrolling,
> as we see on the enneagram of antiself actions, diagram 11. They are careful about what
> they express and how they behave. Every move is filtered through an inner censor, and the result is a
> studied, restrained, and often stilted manner. A sense of formality, decorousness, even primness as
> well as an affectedness and a sense of posturing is often the result. Like the horse, the animal
> associated with this type, they present an image of controlled elegance, restrained power. There is,
> obviously, little room for spontaneity in the behavior and, more important, in the inner life of a four.
> On a social level, the world of protocols, codes of behavior, rules of conduct, formalities, and
> correct form are the four’s province. Diplomatically getting a message across without voicing it
> directly, indirectly communicating anything that might be conflictual or regarded as improper are
> realms in which the four excels. Japanese culture, in which strict protocols govern all aspects of
> interaction, exemplifies this four-ish characteristic. For the japanese, bringing shame upon oneself,
> one’s family, clan, or the country itself is one of the most grievous offenses, which has led to the
> ritualization of suicide as a way of saving face. Even the choice of a gift, where it is purchased, and
> how it is wrapped are determined by strict protocols governed by the occasion. While japan, like the
> rest of the world, is rapidly taking on more and more three-ish tendencies, speeding up the pace of
> life, with a focus on personal attainment and the packaging rather than the content, its fundamental
> orientation is four-ish. The spiritual path of zen buddhism, with its stress upon spontaneity and
> bringing a fresh beginner’s mind to each moment, appears to have arisen as an antidote to the overly
> ritualized and formalized japanese culture. Its forms and practices, however, now follow centuries-old
> proscriptions and for many are empty rituals.
> Although not the norm, occasionally one comes upon someone of this type whose behavioral style
> looks quite the opposite of the more typical reserved and refined four-ish style. This type of four
> places a premium upon behaving spontaneously with no self-inhibition, even if she behaves
> audaciously and outrageously, or even rudely and brashly with seemingly no regard for propriety,
> convention, or for her effect upon others. Rather than expressing an absence of shame, this style is in
> defiance of it, which is simply a defense against experiencing it. And, as with her more obviously
> controlled sister, she is not necessarily making any more direct contact with her experience,
> appearances to the contrary.
> Whether of the more controlled or more flamboyant style of four, this ennea-type and ennea-type
> two—ego-flattery—which we will turn to momentarily, are the two “wettest” ones on the enneagram
> —the most emotionally labile. Extreme emotionality filtered through control manifests as a flair for
> the dramatic, and rather than spontaneously expressing what they feel, fours dramatize their
> emotions. There is a distinct theatricality about them, the sense that what they are expressing is part
> real and part performance piece. The posturing of oscar wilde comes to mind, as does the great
> dancer isadora duncan, who in true four fashion was strangled by her flowing scarf, which caught in
> the wheels of her open car. They make great actresses—uma thurman and gwyneth paltrow are
> current examples. Connected with this theatrical tendency is the body part associated with point four,
> the lungs. Grand gestures of moaning and bemoaning, sighing, fainting, and bewailing come to mind,
> and the lungs are associated with grief in some of the wholistic medical traditions. What is avoided, as
> we see in the enneagram of avoidances, diagram 10, is simple sadness.
> Fours can be venomous, spiteful, and bitter toward others, often expressed in indirect ways through
> humor, slights, and underhanded attacks cloaked in a show of politeness and civility. The usually
> unconscious intent is to inflict upon others the shame that they want to avoid experiencing, as well as
> preserving or establishing a sense of their own faultlessness. On the surface, fours tend to blame
> others for their problems, and it is very difficult for them to acknowledge their side of a conflict with
> another, since to avoid the onslaught of inner scorn they need to see the other as wrong.
> As a further defense against experiencing shame about and within themselves, fours take a superior
> stance relative to others. Feeling and suffering intensely—more intensely than others from their point
> of view, and perhaps in fact, since their attention is oriented toward it—confer upon them a
> specialness and a nobility that raise them above others, whom they see as less sensitive, less refined,
> and less attuned to the nuances of the soul than they are. It is as though through their nostalgia,
> melancholy, and extreme investment in emotional subtleties, they are remaining loyal to the lost
> source, and even if they don’t feel in touch with it, they are retaining some kind of contact with it.
> Because of this, they seem perpetually stuck in mourning and grieving for the contact and love that
> has been lost, and tend to cling to their pain and emotional reactions. They may, for example, suffer
> over a marriage or relationship that ended twenty years ago, seemingly unable to move beyond it.
> They sometimes seem to be bearing up against the unbearable—the grossness and insensitivity of the
> rest of humanity—and bearing their burden with a stiff upper lip if they are of the less flamboyant
> type, or with loud demonstrations of grief if otherwise.
> They often feel that no one can truly understand the emotional depths and heights that they
> experience, and so out of their pain of disconnection from others, they derive this sense of being better
> than them. Holding themselves back becomes transformed into a haughtiness and a snobbishness in
> which others are looked down upon. This may reach the extreme of perceiving others in general, or
> particular people, as contemptible and the butt of their derision and ridicule. Some fours simply
> ignore those whom they don’t feel are worthy of their attention. They tend to be elitist, behaving as
> though they believe themselves to be the crème de la crème, obviously a reaction formation to feeling
> quite the reverse deep down.
> This tendency may also be a form of entitlement in reaction to the inner sense of having been
> neglected and abused, such that the four feels due special treatment and privileges. As naranjo says,
> though the individual may seethe in self-deprecation and self-hate, the attitude to the outer world is
> in this case that of a “prima-donna” or at least a very special person. When this claim of specialness
> is frustrated it may be complicated by a victimized role of “misunderstood genius.” in line with the
> development, individuals also develop traits of wit, interesting conversation, and others in which a
> natural disposition towards imaginativeness, analysis, or emotional depth (for instance) are
> secondarily put to the service of the contact need and the desire to summon admiration.10
> the inner sense of disconnection implicit in the loss of holy origin leads to a craving for what
> makes one feel connected—for what is original, authentic, creative, and direct. For this reason, fours
> are drawn to the arts and other aesthetic pursuits as either creator or appreciator. Suffering and the
> artist have been perennially linked, and part of a four’s clinging to her emotional states is because of
> this linkage. Intense emotional states lead to a particular sense of contacting oneself, as discussed at
> the beginning of this chapter. The depths of emotion take us to the edge of our holes, those places in
> our souls where contact with essence has been lost. We experience a sense of depth and of meaning;
> and out of our suffering, creativity many manifest. There’s nothing like a tragic romance to stir the
> creative juices, as evidenced in the great love songs throughout time and exemplified in the sixties by
> the tragic love songs of joni mitchell and leonard cohen, surely two fours.
> Things and people who are truly original and creative connect the four to those qualities, and
> through proximity she partakes in them. Her valuing of the refined and beautiful, however, may reach
> the point of preciousness, an exaggerated fawning over such things, or, to use that great british
> expression, they become bijou, treated like jewels. She may, for example, treat a work of art or piece
> of music with a reverence usually reserved for the religious. But, as naranjo says,
> an inclination to refinement . . . May be understood as efforts on the part of the person to
> compensate for a poor self-image (so that an ugly self-image and the refined self-ideal may be seen as
> reciprocally supporting each other); also, they convey the attempt on the part of the person to be
> something different from what he or she is. . . . The lack of originality entailed by such imitativeness in
> turn perpetuates an envy of originality—just as the attempt to imitate original individuals and the
> wish to emulate spontaneity are doomed to fail. 11
> the importance of originality, authenticity, and spontaneity to fours leads us back to the idealized
> aspect of this type that we began discussing at the beginning of this chapter. Having explored the
> behavioral, emotional, and belief patterns of a four, we can now fully understand how this type is an
> emulation of the essential quality called the point in the language of the diamond approach.
> Experiencing the point is experiencing ourselves as someone completely undetermined by our
> circumstances or our personal history and so free and liberated. It is recognizing our true identity—
> unique and individual expressions of the divine, inseparable from it. It is the experience of being a
> shining center of illumination. Trying to appear like someone who is original, creative, authentic,
> spontaneous, and special—taking on an image that embodies the qualities of the point—is the four’s
> attempt to replicate this experience. Although impossible, this desired authenticity is the trap for
> fours, as we see on diagram 9.
> The theatricality and drama of fours can be seen as an attempt to lend weight to the feelings of this
> self-representation or false self, as well as imitating the experience of the point, that of being a star,
> full of significance, depth, and meaning. It is this self-image that a four looks toward to provide a
> sense of realness, and so to a four, the emotions emanating from this self-concept are to greater and
> lesser extents sacrosanct and “real.” for this reason they are often convinced of the validity of their
> reactions and are defensive about them, as we have seen. From this angle, we can see that the
> characteristic resistance of fours to how things are, both outwardly and inwardly, is an attempt to
> shore up the false sense of self of the personality, the self-representation. This pattern originated in
> saying no to help us discriminate between ourselves and the mother of early childhood, and so as an
> adult supports the sense of being distinct.
> The key to the development of a four is the virtue associated with this point, equanimity, as we see
> on the enneagram of virtues in diagram 1. Ichazo’s definition of equanimity is as follows: “it is
> balance. A whole being lives in complete harmony with his environment. His moves are economical
> and always appropriate to his circumstances. He is not emotionally affected by external stimuli, but
> responds to them exactly as much as is necessary.”
> as we have discussed, the virtue is both what is needed for one’s spiritual evolution as well as a byproduct
> of it. To live the balanced life ichazo is pointing toward, emotional and mental evenness, and
> an imperturbability, are necessary, as well as an acceptance of what is and a capacity not to be
> inflamed by external events. Fundamentally a four needs to approach her experience without reacting
> to it, without clinging to it, and without needing it to be right, dramatic, or out of the ordinary. Only
> then is it possible to respond to life with equilibrium.
> This implies a number of things in terms of inner process. First of all, it means fully landing within
> herself and her experience and not resisting it. Not fully entering into their experience is what keeps
> fours on the surface of themselves, disconnected from anything deeper. Longing for something
> different to be happening and comparing themselves to others only perpetuates this disconnection, as
> we have seen. Equanimity, then, means that the controlled and controlling four behavior needs to be
> replaced with an attitude of surrender and openness to what is occurring, internally or externally,
> rather than fighting it. This necessitates not wishing to be different or to be experiencing anything
> other than what is happening in the moment. This in turn means not comparing herself to others and
> not measuring herself against her inner picture of how one ought to be.
> For this change in orientation to come about, fours must recognize how they continuously judge,
> censor, and control themselves in order to approximate their inner picture of how they believe they
> should be, and further, how they shame themselves for not measuring up to it. They need to see how
> this nonallowing distances them from their direct experience and thus perpetuates the sense of being
> disconnected and is therefore how they abandon themselves. They also need to understand how this
> pattern makes them feel hopeless about themselves, and they need to give up the hope of matching
> some ideal and accept themselves as they are. It also means getting in touch with the aggression and
> self-hatred embedded in this resistance to themselves, and really feeling and understanding that they
> inflict suffering upon themselves in this way.
> Fours need to see that their resistance to negative affects and states only perpetuates them. They
> need to understand that working through our emotional reactions and mental beliefs is only possible
> when we fully allow them, because otherwise our understanding cannot penetrate them. True
> disidentification, then, which is not a distancing from our experience, is only possible through diving
> fully into our experience. Paradoxically, at least to the mind, the more we immerse ourselves in our
> experience, the more we become disidentified with it. In terms of process, this means that a four
> needs to not dramatize what she is experiencing, as well as not distance from it out of shame. Meeting
> inner experience with equanimity involves allowing it yet not being swept away by it, which means
> experiencing it completely.
> To the extent that a four fully feels her inner contents, her consciousness can penetrate them and
> reveal their underpinnings, which in turn reveals depths beyond them. This process leads a four to
> becoming more and more centered within, and less externally focused. Striving for the exceptional,
> the exciting, and the extreme gradually becomes replaced with an appreciation of calm and of
> simplicity. The need to be special becomes replaced by a recognition of her humanness—how alike
> she is to others—which in time she sees is in itself extraordinary.
> As a four gets out from under her superego and begins to disidentify from her attitude of envy and
> from her reactivity, the deficiency state of lostness and of lack that these cover will begin to surface.
> Rather than trying to fill this emptiness, like everything else it needs to be fully experienced. She may
> feel as though she were lost in deep space that feels vacuous and empty, but as she opens to it, it
> begins to change into a presence that feels spacious, free, and peaceful. As she allows it further, she
> begins to find and recognize herself, to experience her original face before she was born, to paraphrase
> the zen koan. A sense of connection arises, a sense of recognition of herself when all has been
> stripped away. She gradually begins to experience herself as a shining star in the firmament—a real
> star, rather than the imitation one she has tried to be. She experiences balance within, center within,
> and no longer needs to long for the source she has felt separated from: She is and knows herself at last
> to be that source. This experience will arise again and again with different nuances until in time her
> identification shifts from the false personality to her real self, the point of existence.12


thank you so much)))


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> @Oswin I'm curious, do you love to travel? I'm not sure where I caught it but my interpretation of you was based on the idea of a traveling monk. So each time you come back home you bring seeds and inspirations of the foreign architecture, hence why your house and garden are mishmash of styles and species.


A traveling monk!) Very exciting) Yeah, I do like to travel))
This is very exciting)
I feel like I didn't do an impression of you but I'm not sure I have anything in mind( Maybe, one of those flutes you can make out of trees with reeds or something)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> LOL
> 
> Oh, BTW... the part where you talked about the Truman show and said
> 
> "The government could have some secret plan that involves convincing everyone the world is round, maybe there is no world, maybe all existence is stored in a computer chip somewhere, I don't know. I could never know."
> 
> 
> this ^ cracked me up, bec I actually have thought of this. Many times. I have creeped myself out because of this many times. Movies like the Matrix etc only feeds my irrational fears on the matter lol!


I do not get conspiracy theories. At all.

I actually think the fact some people still believe in chemtrails or are against vaccines is scarier than the idea that government is trying to poison us or make us ill for personal gain.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Well, it's not so much of a conspiracy theory that I have heard and agreed with. It would all have to makes sense and come together... although , I come up with my own little imaginations and then freak myself out lol.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> Well, it's not so much of a conspiracy theory that I have heard and agreed with. It would all have to makes sense and come together... although , I come up with my own little imaginations and then freak myself out lol.


I still don't get it.

Unless we have real evidence for it, it's useless to panic over the government. I see that a lot... and it leads to irrational ideas that can panic a nation.

Translation- I am no fun.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

hoopla said:


> I do not get conspiracy theories. At all.
> 
> I actually think the fact some people still believe in chemtrails or are against vaccines is scarier than the idea that government is trying to poison us or make us ill for personal gain.


It distracts from real issues. I live on the principle that world is made to be as boring as possible. If something happens, what is the most mundane and boring explanation? Start there. 

Like JFK. Nobody wants to believe Oswald killed this guy. It has to fit into a larger narrative. People don't want to believe we live in a world where a guy like Oswald can wipe out a guy like Kennedy. There are larger forces at work. lol.


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> A traveling monk!) Very exciting) Yeah, I do like to travel))
> This is very exciting)
> I feel like I didn't do an impression of you but I'm not sure I have anything in mind( Maybe, one of those flutes you can make out of trees with reeds or something)














> I feel like I didn't do an impression of you but I'm not sure I have anything in mind( Maybe, one of those flutes you can make out of trees with reeds or something)


I thought about pan's flute. Which is flute of Pan. And pan is kind of a troll by nature and demon by looks. I can see a connection.


----------



## Greyhart

Some conspiracy theories are fun. Like area 52. Are the alien? We just don't know.


----------



## Psychopomp

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm curious. Has everyone settled on their type?
> 
> So far:
> 
> @_alittlebear_ ENFJ
> 
> @_Oswin_ ESFJ
> 
> @_Curiphant_ ISFP
> 
> @_SugarPlum_ INFP
> 
> @_ElliCat_ INFP
> 
> @_fair phantom_ INFP?
> 
> @_LuchoIsLurking_ ESTP
> 
> @_Barakiel_ ???


 @_LuchoIsLurking_ switched to STP? All is progressing according to my insidious plans. Totally an STP.
@_fair phantom_ - prior to watching video, I'd say a very very very feelery Ti/Fe ...? ....? watching a bit but not all of her video left me with an SFJ impression but I am holding my tongue a great deal on this thread lest I be accused of just calling almost everyone an SFJ (though, being honest, I think just that). 

<tangent>


* *





I don't think any of you are INFPs, because INFP is a thing, and I have not seen any INFP-ish traits in my cursory and spotty skimming of this thread. I'd be interested in taking any case on it's own merit, however. 

I have the rather minority opinion that INFPs would be rare on a forum such as this. I think that the self-perception of INFP is rampant, but the actuality is scarce. That is because I think that INFPs would have little patience or natural interest in a lot of what occurs on this forum - which ultimately amounts to a cacophony of voices whimsically theorizing about stuff. You'd think that INFP would be front and center in that, but it is actually quite contrary to Fi/Te thinking. Inferior Te is very 'tell me the facts, now, as they are, and don't change them'. Ti likes to dance about in abstract places, and reinvent the wheel, and theorize and play around. Te has no patience for this, and inferior Te all the less. 

Think of famous NFPs and think of how much patience they'd have for this forum. Really, the answer is clear. Basically none. My wife and closest friend are poster boy/girl for NFP and my wife only very briefly and impatiently joined this forum. The cacophony of voices hit her threshold very quickly and she was bored and gone. The INFP wouldn't touch it with a pole and has repeatedly asked me incredulously how I can. "All those people just guessing at types, arguing with you and each other? Good grief. It makes my head hurt just imagining it." The core of their argument, both of them, independently is: 

1) What do you get out of it? (aka, what is your personal stake?)

2) How can you endure so many discordant voices? (inferior Te and an Fi internalized sensitivity, I guess, since dominant Te tend to run headlong into this situation, though they gripe the whole way)

This actually applies to xxFP in general, though I think that Se thirst for content would make them more likely to engage in the forum so long as it was progressing fast and was highly engaging. Then, they would disappear. Rather, they do. 

I should do a post on NFP. Actually, I should do a post on everything. Not enough time in the day.



</tangent>

@_shinynotshiny_ - read a bunch of your typically very short posts. A Thinker. A Sensor? Unlikely to be an STP? You like to organize the group, don't you? But, you also can nitpick a bit. Still, probably a Te, right? That's all I got. You are so pleasantly laconic, I don't know what else to say.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

FearAndTrembling said:


> It distracts from real issues. I live on the principle that world is made to be as boring as possible. If something happens, what is the most mundane and boring explanation? Start there.
> 
> Well someone is not an Ne user. Lol.
> 
> Like JFK. Nobody wants to believe Oswald killed this guy. It has to fit into a larger narrative. People don't want to believe we live in a world where a guy like Oswald can wipe out a guy like Kennedy. There are larger forces at work. lol.


It stems from wanting more. It's a false hope. JFK was an idealized figure, so we will idealize his death. An ordinary bystander killing JFK? People don't like that.They want the Big Bad that sided with the common man in order to rationalize something deemed terrible.

Life is boring so they want to make it more interesting. Or they want believe there is hope, unavailable hope, that is hidden from the public, so we can access it and improve the world. 

It also stems from undereducation in many cases. 

...Some are valid, however. The case of Kurt Cobain for instance... evidence is shaky. That's one of those cases we won't know the whole story to, and that's how I see it. Not that the idea of a beloved star killing himself bothers me, of course. If that were the truth, ok, I'll swallow it. A lot of people are just doomed by the truth... they need something larger. Which is fine until it deludes a nation and causes intellectual irresponsibility.
@arkigos... honestly I was starting to think ISFJ may fit Fair Phantom. It's either NTP or SFJ imo. I don't think NTP is out of the question. Don't think fe is dominate at least. 

I mostly keep my typing opinions on the wayslide. People get... emotionally invested sometimes, and if @shinynotshiny and @SugarPlum hasn't noticed, I fail at dealing with anything too heated. 

I also retain that fear that everyone will rag on me for considering them an SFJ.. I am beginning to think SFJ types are often drawn to this theory.


----------



## Greyhart

arkigos said:


> @LuchoIsLurking switched to STP? All is progressing according to my insidious plans. Totally an STP.


_Fine_, you were right!



> @fair phantom - prior to watching video, I'd say a very very very feelery Ti/Fe ...? ....? watching a bit but not all of her video left me with an SFJ impression but I am holding my tongue a great deal on this thread lest I be accused of just calling everyone an SFJ (though, being honest, I think just that).


Not sure about SFJ but I get a distinct F>T preference from her.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think any of you are INFPs, because INFP is a thing, and I have not seen any INFP-ish traits in my cursory and spotty skimming of this thread. I'd be interested in taking any case on it's own merit, however.
> 
> I have the rather minority opinion that INFPs would be rare on a forum such as this. I think that the self-perception of INFP is rampant, but the actuality is scarce. That is because I think that INFPs would have little patience or natural interest in a lot of what occurs on this forum - which ultimately amounts to a cacophony of voices whimsically theorizing about stuff. You'd think that INFP would be front and center in that, but it is actually quite contrary to Fi/Te thinking. Inferior Te is very 'tell me the facts, now, as they are, and don't change them'. Ti likes to dance about in abstract places, and reinvent the wheel, and theorize and play around. Te has no patience for this, and inferior Te all the less.
> 
> Think of famous NFPs and think of how much patience they'd have for this forum. Really, the answer is clear. Basically none. My wife and closest friend are poster boy/girl for NFP and my wife only very briefly and impatiently joined this forum. The cacophony of voices hit her threshold very quickly and she was bored and gone. The INFP wouldn't touch it with a pole and has repeatedly asked me incredulously how I can. "All those people just guessing at types, arguing with you and each other? Good grief. It makes my head hurt just imagining it." The core of their argument, both of them, independently is:
> 
> 1) What do you get out of it? (aka, what is your personal stake?)
> 
> 2) How can you endure so many discordant voices? (inferior Te and an Fi internalized sensitivity, I guess, since dominant Te tend to run headlong into this situation, though they gripe the whole way)
> 
> This actually applies to xxFP in general, though I think that Se thirst for content would make them more likely to engage in the forum so long as it was progressing fast and was highly engaging. Then, they would disappear. Rather, they do.
> 
> I should do a post on NFP. Actually, I should do a post on everything. Not enough time in the day.


He dropped the bomb. O:



> @shinynotshiny - read a bunch of your typically very short posts. A Thinker. A Sensor? Unlikely to be an STP? You like to organize the group, don't you? But, you also can nitpick a bit. Still, probably a Te, right? That's all I got. You are so pleasantly laconic, I don't know what else to say.


Poor shiny, nobody can pin her for sure.


----------



## Immolate

I'm holding my tongue, @arkigos eaceful:


----------



## Greyhart

@arkigos

laurie17
ElliCat


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm curious. Has everyone settled on their type?
> 
> So far:
> 
> @_alittlebear_ ENFJ
> 
> @_Oswin_ ESFJ
> 
> @_Curiphant_ ISFP
> 
> @_SugarPlum_ INFP
> 
> @_ElliCat_ INFP
> 
> @_fair phantom_ INFP?
> 
> @_LuchoIsLurking_ ESTP
> 
> @_Barakiel_ ???


Some people changed types again... :dry:


----------



## Darkbloom

@Oswin,what made you switch back to ESFJ?


----------



## orbit

Arkigos came back on =o

Wait he said almost everyone is SFJ 

Does this mean Greyhart...? XP
Does the fact that I'm still on this forum make me an SFJ? I should disappear tomorrow to validate my ISFPness.


----------



## fair phantom

@arkigos do you think that being very close to two NFPs might be causing a bias? It seems like you can accept a wide range of behavior for many types, but NFP _must behave in this way._

SFJ...lol whatever. I quit.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm holding my tongue, @arkigos eaceful:


You are a typing mystery. Eighty points awarded to whoever pins you down. XP


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Poor shiny, nobody can pin her for sure.


IxTJ at least.

I think it is interesting one would believe they can gain nothing out of this forum... I've gained transformation and exchange. I'm satisfied.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I feel like I have been requesting facts, to show me proof. And I have mentioned being "done" asking, because I keep getting "impressions". It finally kicked in, that there was a reason I had to leave for a month long break. Because I can't take so many voices telling me who I am, even though my lack of confidence in MBTI knowledge has led me to keep asking for others input in the first place... then again, when it isn't straight forward or facts-based, I go back to pulling back lol. It's been a vicious cycle for me really, and now, i just decided a cpl days ago, that I will just stay out of the hot seat and flirt with this thread. I think my knowledge on the subject has improved tremendously , and I'm more confident now. Although I still have more to learn. 

EDIT: Just wanted to add, that I am fully aware that "giving me facts and showing me proof", is NOBODY'S responsibility lol. My comment above came off as rude and entitled. Oops.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@shinynotshiny

I cannot do this.

Btw I actually have considered that Regina may be an ESTJ. I'm crazy I know.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I actually think of it this way-
> 
> Ti and Si naturally seem drawn to something like this as Ti and Si are both prone to categorization, which is what this theory essentially constitutes. I think many Fe types like understanding the people around them and learning how to rationalize their behavior or thought processes... to know why, and to use their conclusions objectively in their lives. And of course the Ne shooting out possibilities like mad. .


Absolutely. This is why I am ESFJ.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> @_shinynotshiny_
> 
> I cannot do this.
> 
> Btw I actually have considered that Regina may be an ESTJ. I'm crazy I know.


Can't do what, Hoops?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Can't do what, Hoops?


Your sense of humor is quite the sweet treat. <3


----------



## Darkbloom

hoopla said:


> @shinynotshiny
> 
> I cannot do this.
> 
> Btw I actually have considered that Regina may be an ESTJ. I'm crazy I know.


I kinda thought so too but idk


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Your sense of humor is quite the sweet treat. <3


I have no idea what you're talking about. Take me seriously, Hoops.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. Take me seriously, Hoops.







Could it get any more ESFJ than that?


----------



## fair phantom

As for why I come here? Because I am lonely and I feel I can connect here. Most of my friends live far away and those that live close have more disposable income than I do, so I have shied away from socializing with them. Can't afford it. Also my chronic health issues make things awkward. I can't easily go out and get dinner and such. And as much as I love my fiance, sometimes I want to talk to _someone else_, y'know? And you are all interesting and great fun!

Also, to be honest, it is....easier to socialize from behind the safety of my laptop


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Could it get any more ESFJ than that?


I don't know I just want to break into dance join me


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see it this way...
> 
> Consider every possibility, and think about it..
> 
> 
> 
> _I have_ considered the possibility. And I saw how absurd of an idea it was. And my fiance, the one who knows me waaaay better than anyone here also saw how absurd of an idea it was. So many of the things I had to work hard at, so many of the things I struggled with, would haven't been problems if I was an ISFJ. So I learned to speak ISFJ or whatever? It is an SJ world and I decided to try to live in it rather than stay wrapped up in my own little world.
> 
> _I am 29 years old_. If I act like a stereotype then I think something is wrong. But I know myself and don't need to prove who I am to anyone.
Click to expand...

I'm 28... and I feel like I feel your pain. Specifically the part of you and your fiancé (that was me and my husband and my mom). I explained the difference between the functions. They literally both laughed at the idea of me being Fe. LAUGHED. I actually felt a little offended lol. 

Your last sentence... yes!


----------



## Deadly Decorum

I don't know why people are taking it so personally tbh.

It's a suggestion. If you disagree, you disagree. Why get upset when you already know it's not what you are?

Typing is not a cozy box- it's a door opener. So whatever you are doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things; it's what you can do with what you are.


----------



## Greyhart

@arkigos each time you sweep across the thread like a comet you create anarchy in your wake. I applaud your mastery.









I haunt these forums mainly because I am interested in what other people write. This thread in particular is like long Skype group history chat at this point.

Hmm for feelers and interest in typology. My ISFJ and INFP friends are not both not much interested in Jung-related stuff. Former because she find it's overly-convoluted and kind of daunting it seems. Although she OK with me dropping typing stuff here and there. INFP friend read some socionics but mainly because she finds if amusingly accurate in some parts. She isn't interested in this forum either. Mostly because she doesn't like talking deep stuff with strangers.

I obviously don't think all ISFJs and INFPs are not interested in it. Mine aren't though. I want to do something to make them interested because I desperately need someone do discuss it with IRL.

Also, this thread is anarchy now.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> As for why I come here? Because I am lonely and I feel I can connect here. Most of my friends live far away and those that live close have more disposable income than I do, so I have shied away from socializing with them. Can't afford it. Also my chronic health issues make things awkward. I can't easily go out and get dinner and such. And as much as I love my fiance, sometimes I want to talk to _someone else_, y'know? And you are all interesting and great fun!
> 
> Also, to be honest, it is....easier to socialize from behind the safety of my laptop


I'm here because a friend of over ten years fucked me over in a way I can't even begin to explain. I don't believe in anyone :love_heart:


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I don't know why people are taking it so personally tbh.
> 
> It's a suggestion. If you disagree, you disagree. Why get upset when you already know it's not what you are?
> 
> Typing is not a cozy box- it's a door opener. So whatever you are doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things; it's what you can do with what you are.


Nah, I remember him shitting on sensors in your thread about... that singer... I forgot her name. I like him because he's a PerC sensation.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> You know, learning about cognition has really put a cramp in my personal style. There was a time I would have argued the 'logic' of faith not realizing all my arguments were purely emotional, and been none the wiser. Now, I realize that any arguments I pose are weak subjective attempts to validate a higher Si-perception and Fe-conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may have been happier living in ignorance, but at least now I know my limitations. =P



This is when typology is dangerous; when it's a checklist of things a person can or cannot do.

Who says you can't rationalize reasonable arguments about faith just because you are an SFJ? If you want to break stereotypes, then break them rather than cement them. Build a monument out of a stone, rather than weep at it's uselessness. Things are only useless if you decide to do nothing with them.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> I don't know why people are taking it so personally tbh.
> 
> It's a suggestion. If you disagree, you disagree. Why get upset when you already know it's not what you are?
> 
> Typing is not a cozy box- it's a door opener. So whatever you are doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things; it's what you can do with what you are.


Well it is kind of presumptuous when I have said before that I know I am not an SFJ (or did I say Si-dom? I don't recall what I said exactly haha). I also don't like having to explain uncomfortable circumstances to be better understood because people won't take me at my word. 

Mostly though I'm just like oh whatever and kind of amused.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> This is when typology is dangerous; when it's a checklist of things a person can or cannot do.
> 
> Who says you can't rationalize reasonable arguments about faith just because you are an SFJ? If you want to break stereotypes, then break them rather than cement them. Build a monument out of a stone, rather than weep at it's uselessness. Things are only useless if you decide to do nothing with them.


Why I didn't like someone's comments about being a certain type, as if that suddenly means they can't continue doing what they're doing.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> Actually I think a large amount of sensor types are on this board, but mistyped. And I would say much of the anti sensor bias stems from sensors themselves. The irony is tantalizing and delicious.


Isn't it?! I love that. I await the moment when it clicks in the minds of the deluded that they are in fact part of that dreaded lower class of type against whom they have heaped injustices for years. Alas, though, if they are _*very*_ deluded, that moment never comes.


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> I don't know why people are taking it so personally tbh.
> 
> It's a suggestion. If you disagree, you disagree. Why get upset when you already know it's not what you are?
> 
> Typing is not a cozy box- it's a door opener. So whatever you are doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things; it's what you can do with what you are.


I'm not upset. I agree with a lot that's been said, actually. Just not all. No biggie though. 

I know the irony of asking for opinions, and then rejecting them because I "know myself more"... then why the hell am I asking?! Lol. 

I'm a mess.


----------



## Immolate

There's a lurker called star stripper... is that a play on porn names, or something more existential? I wonder.

I like it.

[Edit] Damn it. It's tripper, not stripper. Meh.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> I didn't think anyone took me seriously until Bear mentioned the thorns and Spock's rigidity (and nothing else).


I see, really I was a bit like WTF, as I recalled that I know someone that tries to act as a Te dom but it's probably a broken SiFe type, and have seen other user changing her types tons of times and actually altering her personality, but that's likely some personality disorder.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> I see, really I was a bit like WTF, as I recalled that I know someone that tries to act as a Te dom but it's probably a broken SiFe type, and have seen other user changing her types tons of times and actually altering her personality, but that's likely some personality disorder.


Yeah, people don't often realize I'm joking, even in person. It's a thing.

Si/Ni is up in the air as it's always been, although arkigos' explanation screams ISTJ to me. If nothing else, I know I'm not Fe.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I didn't think anyone took me seriously until Bear mentioned the thorns and Spock's rigidity (and nothing else).


You do know that I totally knew you were kidding and the rose was a joke, right...

Edit: The Spock thing and Mean Girls thing was also a joke. I was playing off my own "thread less" images of people and trying to think of the most stereotypical and obvious connections. I'm a little confused what I did to lose you and make you think I actually considered you FeSi, ha. But seriously. I got it the second I saw it.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> You do know that I totally knew you were kidding and the rose was a joke, right...
> 
> Edit: The Spock thing and Mean Girls thing was also a joke. I was playing off my own "thread less" images of people and trying to think of the most stereotypical and obvious connections. I'm a little confused what I did to lose you and make you think I actually considered you FeSi, ha. But seriously. I got it the second I saw it.


I would hope so. You're quite sensitive, Bear.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I would hope so. You're quite sensitive, Bear.


Me too.

In the last video questionnaire I made people like

made fun of my eyebrows.

Not fun.

Why can't I be an iron of steel?


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Me too.
> 
> In the last video questionnaire I made people like
> 
> made fun of my eyebrows.
> 
> Not fun.
> 
> Why can't I be an iron of steel?


But your eyebrows are cute?

I'm goo inside. Not that great.

Also, yes, I'm watching your video and you're a tiny fennec :fox:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> Also, yes, I'm watching your video and you're a tiny fennec :fox:












Get some fire fennecs xD


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> But your eyebrows are cute?
> 
> I'm goo inside. Not that great.
> 
> Also, yes, I'm watching your video and you're a tiny fennec :fox:


I identify as a rabbit.

An exotic pet I am, I guess. Yay animal exploitation. 

I don't agree with PETA but they flipped the idea of pets into an insidious angle. I thought it was purely innocuous. Nothing is 100% pure, correct?


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I identify as a rabbit.
> 
> An exotic pet I am, I guess. Yay animal exploitation.
> 
> I don't agree with PETA but they flipped the idea of pets into an insidious angle. I thought it was purely innocuous. Nothing is 100% pure, correct?












I can see a rabbit, though.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I can see a rabbit, though.


I know they're foxes but they're like a fluffy:






I miss this campaign. 

Delectable racism.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I know they're foxes but they're like a fluffy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I miss this campaign.
> 
> Delectable racism.












so proud to be fluffy


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I would hope so. You're quite sensitive, Bear.


I am sensitive, but I'm just trying to be clear here.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I am sensitive, but I'm just trying to be clear here.


Noted.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@arkigos wow an ENFP (Julia Bell) is lurking.

Let's see if your "NFPs would dislike this thread" hypothesis holds up.

I have hopes of recruiting. Stay with us Julia. We heart you.

She's gone. :whoa:

...Now she's back. Let's put this to the test and see what comes of it.


----------



## fair phantom

so much cute. :ball:


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> How is this 41 mins long
> 
> God I am terrible on camera.
> 
> If anyone has ever read my written questionnaires... they're more eloquent.
> 
> "She talked for a long time she's an extrovert"
> 
> Ha I may be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally processed. I am so fucking nervous.


There you are! TOTALLY what I saw in my head, WITH the glasses. Did I mention I saw you in glasses? Although I didn't see that style bangs. Listening now. You also very relatable so far. Shit, I see myself in everyone I guess . Actually, your energy is much like mine, but Ellicat's words sounded more relatable.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Also hate when I put my hands above my lips.

What is that about.

I was not kidding when I claimed to be awkward on camera. Wonky eye contact amirrite?
@SugarPlum maybe I am an Fe dom after all


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Also hate when I put my hands above my lips.
> 
> What is that about.
> 
> I was not kidding when I claimed to be awkward on camera. Wonky eye contact amirrite?
> @_SugarPlum_ maybe I am an Fe dom after all


I don't think you're awkward. You're quite chatty.


----------



## fair phantom

@hoopla I'm going to watch your video as soon as I finish yoga. please don't take it down or anything. :love_heart:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't think you're awkward. You're quite chatty.


That's where I cannot see Ti dom for myself.

People are on crack.

It depends of course, on the situation.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> ESFJ is simply a bit of foolishness. I still believe I'm Te/Fi


Ok, good to know. I thought a rupture in the space-time continuum had occured, and that I would see people in robes worshipping the tear in reality. :laughing:


----------



## Adena

shinynotshiny said:


> Bitter Fe-dom :chargrined:


Welcome to the club!








both ESFJs btw, totally on purpose


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Ok, good to know. I thought a rupture in the space-time continuum had occured, and that I would see people in robes worshipping the tear in reality. :laughing:


That sounds beautiful :glee: 

I'm off to bed. I apologize for the shenanigans, PerC.


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny what you should do now is go on other threads—where people don't understand why you are claiming ESFJ—and just post as you normally would.

You should probably switch back to the Regina George avatar first. for the lolz. :tickled_pink:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> @_shiny_noyshiny what you should do now is go on other threads—where people don't understand why you are claiming ESFJ—and just post as you normally would.
> 
> You should probably switch back to the Regina George avatar first. for the lolz. :tickled_pink:


This. I will make the attempt.

:typingneko:


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> Welcome to the club!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both ESFJs btw, totally on purpose


Damn Fe doms surrounding me.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Nooooooooo! NOT MY BABYYYY! :'(

EDIT: I just had this feeling the tear jerking moment would be him. And I KNEW the kid would be the death of him, back a cpl weeks ago. I seriously knew this was gonna happen. I just didn't know how. Up until that final moment , the only think that gave me a little tear was the Marcella/Jamie moment. I have to say, I knew when she kissed her, there was a reason she kissed so awkwardly long. Ughhh. Damn this show! I Miss my Stark men! :''''(


----------



## fair phantom

I realized while trying to sleep that I was more upset than I thought I was (not with anyone...just upset). so I think I may take a break from perc. I don't know. Maybe this is just an emotional impulse. But be aware that if I disappear I'm just...centering myself. or however you wish to put it. I should be back though. 

You are all lovely. Thank you for making things so fun.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I realized while trying to sleep that I was more upset than I thought I was (not with anyone...just upset). so I think I may take a break from perc. I don't know. Maybe this is just an emotional impulse. But be aware that if I disappear I'm just...centering myself. or however you wish to put it. I should be back though.
> 
> You are all lovely. Thank you for making things so fun.


Well, if you need someone to rant to, shout my way. :wink:


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> I realized while trying to sleep that I was more upset than I thought I was (not with anyone...just upset). so I think I may take a break from perc. I don't know. Maybe this is just an emotional impulse. But be aware that if I disappear I'm just...centering myself. or however you wish to put it. I should be back though.
> 
> You are all lovely. Thank you for making things so fun.


Hey I get it. Been there, done that. I may even join yuh. Take care, Sweetie.


----------



## owlet

I think I'm now officially too far behind this thread to catch up (I have three different tabs open all at different points in the thread and I forget if I should be working backwards or forwards from those points :dejection, so I will continue thinking @shinynotshiny is officially ESFJ (even though I know it's a joke) - no wait, EVERYONE is ESFJ and my life has been a lie.



arkigos said:


> I could see @_laurie17_ as an INFP.. and I don't really know @_ElliCat_. Inasumuch *as they conform without the slightest deviation to my rigid and unrelenting view of INFP*, sure, they can come to the party. They can even wear the designated hats and eat the predetermined cake.....
> 
> 
> ....for now.


:ghost3: Now I'm curious what your unrelenting view of INFP is.

(And I will have some cake, thank you!)


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> But, apparently, social introversion is irrelevant.


There is a tendency, as the person would use an extraverted function dominantly and therefore have a stronger focus on the outside world for perception or judgement, for Exxx types to come across as social extroverts.

However, Se, Ne and Te are not people-focused and neither do they use people for their preferred method of perceiving/judging. They may be around people as a sort of by-product of that, but the motivation is different. Te doms can be very withdrawn and hate dealing with people because of them not being set quatifiables - but many famous Te doms have worked people into their preferred area and so can be i.e. business leaders, because, despite the workings of other people potentially getting in the way, they're so good at judging correctness/logic etc. by objective/external means they can bypass that issue.

Also, the majority of people are ambiverts in the social aspect, which doesn't fit the MBTI theory well at all.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Then how is it I could possibly be a Fe dom, yet NOT like; people (much)... . community. .. socializing... strangers..talking on the phone. . .leaving the house (usually)... pretty much anything 'social-extroverted' related...? :/


----------



## owlet

SugarPlum said:


> Then how is it I could possibly be a Fe dom, yet NOT like; people (much)... . community. .. socializing... strangers..talking on the phone. . .leaving the house (usually)... pretty much anything 'social-extroverted' related...? :/


The expression of Fe depends entirely on the person. Fe is just about judging value/appropriateness based on external criteria. Depending on the environment you grew up in, you may have developed so that you weren't into typical Fe-based activities (one ESFJ I know goes out with friends all thtime, whereas the other prefers to stay at home with her boyfriend and have only a couple of friends over maybe once a week at most - but she checks up to make sure everyone's having a good time when they are there. I noticed her and her boyfriend (ISFJ) watching my face for a reaction when they were showing me an anime they liked. My Fe using sister does the same thing to an extent).


----------



## Persephone Soul

laurie17 said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then how is it I could possibly be a Fe dom, yet NOT like; people (much)... . community. .. socializing... strangers..talking on the phone. . .leaving the house (usually)... pretty much anything 'social-extroverted' related...? :/
> 
> 
> 
> The expression of Fe depends entirely on the person. Fe is just about judging value/appropriateness based on external criteria. Depending on the environment you grew up in, you may have developed so that you weren't into typical Fe-based activities (one ESFJ I know goes out with friends all thtime, whereas the other prefers to stay at home with her boyfriend and have only a couple of friends over maybe once a week at most - but she checks up to make sure everyone's having a good time when they are there. I noticed her and her boyfriend (ISFJ) watching my face for a reaction when they were showing me an anime they liked. My Fe using sister does the same thing to an extent).
Click to expand...

I am actually coming around to this Fe thing (possibility  ). I think I just use it way differently than a typical Fe user. Yes my expressions are very... well... expressive, but they are still contained. It just does not feel dominant. I make judgments fairly quickly but I won't vocalize them, until I have gathered all the necessary information (sometimes my opinion may change after). Even then, I will ponder whether or not it will be 'worth' me expressing. However, it is always written all over my face. But unless I find it truly necessarily to vocalize my moral judgments, I usually won't. Although, I have had many impulsive moments. Mostly when I was 'younger and dumber'. Now it's like, "hmmm, let me gather more info, and process...."


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oops,sorry.. it's late and I completely went off on a tangent lol. 

Back to social extroversion. .. yeah, I get super uncomfortable around people. To be honest, I am only TRULY comfortable around my mom and husband. And semi with my sister. I'm not even fully comfortable around my BFF since the 5th grade. I do go out here and there (mainly because they do the guilt trip thing if I dont), but when out, I feel better going to places I have been before many times so I know everything will run smoothly. Being around so many people is exhilarating, yet overwhelming, and yeah... I don't know. I myself as a realllllyyyy sloppy extravert. Moreso out of nervous energy. It is NOT a natural state for me. 

EDIT: Then I get in these moods where I want to drop everything and drag my family on an adventure. Move to another state. Let the wind carry us. It's like I turn into a very sloppy, wannabe-Se dom (maybe Ne) Super weird.

PS- I totally watch for people's reactions to shows. If they don't match mine, inside I'll be like "hey! Lets watch it again... from the top. ". Lol


----------



## owlet

Sorry for the slow reply, my laptop was doing something weird so I couldn't click in the reply box...



SugarPlum said:


> I am actually coming around to this Fe thing (possibility  ). I think I just use it way differently than a typical Fe user. Yes my expressions are very... well... expressive, but they are still contained. It just does not feel dominant. I make judgments fairly quickly but I won't vocalize them, until I have gathered all the necessary information (sometimes my opinion may change after). Even then, I will ponder whether or not it will be 'worth' me expressing. However, it is always written all over my face. But unless I find it truly necessarily to vocalize my moral judgments, I usually won't. Although, I have had many impulsive moments. Mostly when I was 'younger and dumber'. Now it's like, "hmmm, let me gather more info, and process...."


Well, it mostly depends on your motivations for doing this. Are you concerned about disrupting the external environment?



SugarPlum said:


> Oops,sorry.. it's late and I completely went off on a tangent lol.
> 
> Back to social extroversion. .. yeah, I get super uncomfortable around people. To be honest, I am only TRULY comfortable around my mom and husband. And semi with my sister. I'm not even fully comfortable around my BFF since the 5th grade. I do go out here and there (mainly because they do the guilt trip thing if I dont), but when out, I feel better going to places I have been before many times so I know everything will run smoothly. Being around so many people is exhilarating, yet overwhelming, and yeah... I don't know. I myself as a realllllyyyy sloppy extravert. Moreso out of nervous energy. It is NOT a natural state for me.
> 
> EDIT: Then I get in these moods where I want to drop everything and drag my family on an adventure. Move to another state. Let the wind carry us. It's like I turn into a very sloppy, wannabe-Se or Ne dom. Super weird.
> 
> PS- I totally watch for people's reactions to shows. If the don't match mine, inside I'll be like "hey! Lets watch it again... from the top. ". Lol


The last bit does sound like Ne to me, but lower Ne (it's more liking the idea than the actual thing, which is Ne over Se and, if it only comes out sometimes, especially when under some stress, it would be lower down).

Have you looked between ISFJ and ESFJ to see which of those sounds better to you? Do you mostly relate to being aware of the external environment and being concerned with keeping an equilibrium going there (generally keeping 'good feeling' between yourself and others) or maybe having more of a focus on how you have an expectation of how things should be? (It could be difficult actually, seeing as the dominant function is often hard to notice in yourself...)


----------



## Persephone Soul

I am the Queen of the 'Why?'s'. My husband actually said that too me. That is what actually had me actually accepting that I may infact use the Fe Ti axis. Then again, I am very assertive at times. Not so much in a moralizing or ethical way, but in a directive way. Which made me think, nahh it has to be Te. But, I ask tons of questions, trying to get to the bottom of things. I am also bot as good at articulating my logical conclusions, because I feel like someone might find a hole, and that scares me lol. I feel my own conclusions are very solid. Until I verbalize them. That sounds Ti again.


----------



## owlet

SugarPlum said:


> I am the Queen of the 'Why?'s'. My husband actually said that too me. That is what actually had me actually accepting that I may infact use the Fe Ti axis. Then again, I am very assertive at times. Bot so much in a moralizing or ethical way, but in a directive way. Which made me think, nahh it has to be Te. But, I ask tons of questions, trying to get to the bottom of things. I am also bot as good at articulating my logical conclusions, because I feel like someone might find a hole, and that scares me lol. I feel my own conclusions are very solid. Until I verbalize them. That sounds Ti again.


I don't know, that might be some lower Te - checking for competency based on external (others') criteria. I find that, if I'm unsure on a topic, instead of just trying it out I end up asking someone who might know a lot about it for their view. It won't change mine unless I find it convincing, but if someone can demonstrate their knowledge by giving an in-depth and water-tight explanation, I'll probably go more that way (I say that as a singular, but actually for me I have to get a range of evidence to convince myself i.e. massive amounts of research - for example, when my sister said I might be INFP and gave evidence I found somewhat convincing, I then had to go away and research and think it over). I don't like seeming incompetent in things, because it's something I'm highly aware of.


----------



## Persephone Soul

laurie17 said:


> Sorry for the slow reply, my laptop was doing something weird so I couldn't click in the reply box...
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am actually coming around to this Fe thing (possibility  ). I think I just use it way differently than a typical Fe user. Yes my expressions are very... well... expressive, but they are still contained. It just does not feel dominant. I make judgments fairly quickly but I won't vocalize them, until I have gathered all the necessary information (sometimes my opinion may change after). Even then, I will ponder whether or not it will be 'worth' me expressing. However, it is always written all over my face. But unless I find it truly necessarily to vocalize my moral judgments, I usually won't. Although, I have had many impulsive moments. Mostly when I was 'younger and dumber'. Now it's like, "hmmm, let me gather more info, and process...."
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it mostly depends on your motivations for doing this. Are you concerned about disrupting the external environment?
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oops,sorry.. it's late and I completely went off on a tangent lol.
> 
> Back to social extroversion. .. yeah, I get super uncomfortable around people. To be honest, I am only TRULY comfortable around my mom and husband. And semi with my sister. I'm not even fully comfortable around my BFF since the 5th grade. I do go out here and there (mainly because they do the guilt trip thing if I dont), but when out, I feel better going to places I have been before many times so I know everything will run smoothly. Being around so many people is exhilarating, yet overwhelming, and yeah... I don't know. I myself as a realllllyyyy sloppy extravert. Moreso out of nervous energy. It is NOT a natural state for me.
> 
> EDIT: Then I get in these moods where I want to drop everything and drag my family on an adventure. Move to another state. Let the wind carry us. It's like I turn into a very sloppy, wannabe-Se or Ne dom. Super weird.
> 
> PS- I totally watch for people's reactions to shows. If the don't match mine, inside I'll be like "hey! Lets watch it again... from the top. ". Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The last bit does sound like Ne to me, but lower Ne (it's more liking the idea than the actual thing, which is Ne over Se and, if it only comes out sometimes, especially when under some stress, it would be lower down).
> 
> Have you looked between ISFJ and ESFJ to see which of those sounds better to you? Do you mostly relate to being aware of the external environment and being concerned with keeping an equilibrium going there (generally keeping 'good feeling' between yourself and others) or maybe having more of a focus on how you have an expectation of how things should be? (It could be difficult actually, seeing as the dominant function is often hard to notice in yourself...)
Click to expand...

No worries lol. Thank you for talking with me. I was thinking maybe it was late so I was just 'thinking out loud'. 

So the first question, nah. Not so much of a concern about 'keeping harmony' as it is with making sure they don't feel attacked. Also, because I want to make sure i have all the facts. I also choose my battles more wisely these days.

The next question.... actually I was just now thinking about ISFJ as possibility again.... hmmm


----------



## Barakiel

@fair phantom, well, if you want withdrawn, I've never considered myself part of any group, not really. Makes for a fun time at school, that's for dang sure. :wink: I'm not good at offering meaningful advice or understanding you, empathy isn't my strong point. But see, the thing with having your mouth disabled like I do is that it allows you to grow into a good listener. :laughing:

Also, off topic, but do you think people leaving school have to start work immediately? I want to join all sorts of extracurricular clubs to just have fun, mostly archery, though. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


> Te focuses on the object mostly ,I focus on principles but it doesn't mean I eliminate the object.


I'm glad there seems to be a balance.


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> I people-watch others for their reactions, but don't tend to give too many reactions myself unless I'm alone. At 6am, catching up on a show the next morning, I will be animated, and shriek, "WHAT!??!" but in front of other people, I restrain myself.


I'm kind of similar with having a stronger reaction on my own, but it's less restraining myself and more just being too aware of the people to get as immersed (plus people usually chat/make comments when we're watching series or films).


----------



## ElliCat

Curiphant said:


> Knowing my type (if it's true but seeing how comfortable I feel with it, I think it is) kind of makes me sad because all of the descriptions kind of state that where I want to go defies my nature. So I'm probably going to have to find something new that matches my nature


DON'T YOU DARE LET THOSE DESCRIPTION LIMIT YOU



shinynotshiny said:


> I'm curious. Has everyone settled on their type?
> 
> So far:
> 
> @_alittlebear_ ENFJ
> 
> @_Oswin_ ESFJ
> 
> @_Curiphant_ ISFP
> 
> @_SugarPlum_ INFP
> 
> @_ElliCat_ INFP
> 
> @_fair phantom_ INFP?
> 
> @_LuchoIsLurking_ ESTP
> 
> @_Barakiel_ ???


I'm boring and mine was never under any doubt. I just joined in for the fun.
@fair phantom I can understand you needing a break, but I trust that you know yourself well enough to know what types are and aren't on the table. As far as xNFP's not being interested in this at all, well, there is literally nothing else I relate to enough to even consider as an alternative type. So either I and a good part of the INFP subforum have a massive problem with our (combined??) understanding of the system, or it's not impossible for xNFP's to exist on this site. 

Not arguing that there aren't mistyped INFP's on the site. Of course there are, and some of them eventually figure it out. But I don't want you to feel pressure to disregard ENFP or INxP if they're feeling the best fit for you.



shinynotshiny said:


> Yeah, people don't often realize I'm joking, even in person. It's a thing.


*sniffles* Story of my life.



shinynotshiny said:


> @fair phantom You make sense to me, or I think I understand you. I'll give an example. I took AP history courses in high school. The first was World History, the second was European History. The same teacher taught both classes, and group discussions, class participation, and presentations were class requirements. Ninth grade year I took World, tenth grade year I took European. The teacher didn't recognize me my tenth grade year, asked me what my name was, if I had ever taken AP courses, if I was new to the school, etc. That's how fucking withdrawn I am, I'm a ghost :encouragement:
> 
> So, at the very least, I understand where you're coming from. Take the time you need.


I understand too. I used to have small elective classes in high school, where we'd sit around in a circle. I'd frequently have classmates sitting directly across from me and wonder out loud where I was. I suspected they were being deliberately awful to me but they'd often be quite embarrassed when I'd wave at them, so I think I genuinely was that invisible. :-/



Barakiel said:


> Also, off topic, but do you think people leaving school have to start work immediately? I want to join all sorts of extracurricular clubs to just have fun, mostly archery, though. :happy:


Depend on the person and their circumstances. For me working is a way to pay for fun extracurricular activities, but of course that relies on you finding classes which don't clash with your working hours.

@hoopla WAIT WAIT WAIT DON'T TAKE IT DOWN I'm waiting to be home alone so I can squeal over your adorableness without having a any awkward questions thrown my way...


----------



## Tad Cooper

Barakiel said:


> Also, off topic, but do you think people leaving school have to start work immediately? I want to join all sorts of extracurricular clubs to just have fun, mostly archery, though. :happy:


I'd love to have done that but couldnt afford to ever! If you can afford to you may as well have some fun before work/further education kicks in!


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Also, off topic, but do you think people leaving school have to start work immediately? I want to join all sorts of extracurricular clubs to just have fun, mostly archery, though. :happy:


As long as you have enough money to live on, I don't see why you shouldn't do that! You can learn some great skills from extracurricular clubs, if you're worried about not looking like you're working on your CV. You could do some voluntary work experience stuff too. Depends what you want to do, really.


----------



## Greyhart

What a day. 

In my video I am wearing golden earrings that grandma gave to my mom what I was born. I'm always wearing them (at home at least) because I assumed they meant a lot to my parents. So I woke up, went to wash my face and apparently I didn't lock one good enough and it fucking washed down the drain in my fucking bathtub. And my bathtub is made in such way that there's no way to open the drain without breaking whole bath apart. So I panicked, started crying because I assumed that parents would be sad/mad/disappointed, called my mom. She was completely chill about, said we lost more important things than one earring.

So I stopped crying at some point, got dressed and went to see Jurassic World with my INFP BFF. Guys, it's amazing. ~DINOSAURS~

Favorite part of going to movies with my BFF is that afterwards she starts being critical and asking questions like "How did they do it?", "Why did dinos did that?", "How does this time lapse makes sense?" and then I come up with the ways to explain in so that it makes sense within movie logic. FUN!

Also I got inspired and wanted to by a raptor toys (because I've no raptors and almost no carnivores in my collection overall) and imagine that, the second biggest toy store in my city had no actual dinos. And not because they sold out, because they didn't stock! What do kids like these days?! Second biggest store had 3 sets of dinos but all to expensive and had no raptors. ( Went to parents to get my toy dinos - my dog didn't see me in 3 and a half months she didn't recognize me at first... and I started crying. What's wrong with me today. Too many emotions.

And the worst is, mom's colleague heard me bawling over the cellphone and said "She looked so unapproachable and intimidating when I met her, I didn't expect her to be able to cry like that.". a). embarrassing. b). "unapproachable and intimidating" apparently this is how I look when I tried to play ~cool~ in front of my mother's crafting union members. :|

Ont he movie, Katie McGrath (Morgana) was wasted in that role. Main character is amazing. She's ENTJ I think? Loved her. The ridiculous part is that she kept her high heels through the entire movie. I can't walk on those, let alone run - 5 minutes in heels above 1,5 inches and I'd rather walk bare feet. ~DINOSAURS~ were awesome. Kids have multiple replacements of "The Kitchen Scene" to haunt their nightmares. Also hopefully dinos will be back in toys store - they were real animals that inhabited Earth millions of years ago, how can kids no love it regardless of movies?!


----------



## owlet

@Greyhart Sorry about your earring. I cried in an airport because I thought I lost a travel charm necklace my mum gave to me (that, plus travelling and being awake for over 20 hours already made me finally burst into tears at a security lady, who seemed terrified). I also got really upset when my cat got a bit funny after he hadn't seen me for about 4 months. I guess with pets, often there's the feeling you have an unbreakable bond... (my mum said I look at my cat like mothers look at their children :ball

The film was good :ghost3: me, my sister and my ExTP (okay, she's just going down as ESTP because she just is) friend had a great time watching it, then other friend said it was too cheesy and I started explaining how they're supposed to be cheesy - that's the whole point! The main dinosaur was really cool and the raptors were my favourites (though water dinosaur was also very cool).

I'm so jealous you have dinosaur toys. I don't think I ever got any when I was younger, despite loving Walking with Dinosaurs...


----------



## Immolate

Aw. You're very sweet, @Greyhart. I don't have any sentimental objects like that, although I do keep any cards I get from family members.


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> What a day.
> 
> In my video I am wearing golden earrings that grandma gave to my mom what I was born. I'm always wearing them (at home at least) because I assumed they meant a lot to my parents. So I woke up, went to wash my face and apparently I didn't lock one good enough and it fucking washed down the drain in my fucking bathtub. And my bathtub is made in such way that there's no way to open the drain without breaking whole bath apart. So I panicked, started crying because I assumed that parents would be sad/mad/disappointed, called my mom. She was completely chill about, said we lost more important things than one earring.


*hugs* I've been there too. For me the guilt is overwhelming even if the other people involved don't care.

Nothing wrong with crying sometimes. Even ENTP's are (a little bit) human.



laurie17 said:


> I'm so jealous you have dinosaur toys. I don't think I ever got any when I was younger, despite loving Walking with Dinosaurs...


I had some! The one I remember best lived on my bedside table for _years_. I think I got it as a freebie with some fast food children's meal set. It was a glow-in-the-dark brontosaurus skeleton with a jade green plastic "flesh" cover you could take on and off. It was incredible. I wasn't even that into dinosaurs but it still made it into a place of honour.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> @hoopla: you remind me of Cleopatra. And that IS a compliment. Striking features, dark hair, beautiful.
> 
> Your facial expressions are great. I love Fe users. Expressiveness! (Also, you hate cameras too? LOVE.)
> 
> I suspect you ARE an ISFJ, but I'm only 5 minutes into the video.
> 
> 
> 
> laurie17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .* I noticed her and her boyfriend (ISFJ) watching my face for a reaction when they were showing me an anime they liked. My Fe using sister does the same thing to an extent)*.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, ha. Yeah. We do that. It's allllll about your reaction. Particularly if we plunk you down in front of something that is going to shock, terrify, or amuse you. Your emotional reaction is our succulent nectar.
> 
> @SugarPlum is an ESFJ now?
Click to expand...

I thought the same after the first cpl minutes of the video. 

I so do this too (for the reaction).

And ehhh, officially trying it on, and bringing up my concerns about it. I am really really open to discussion on the functions and how they may or may not fit my life.


----------



## Greyhart

I also just broke a full-height mirror I had in my room. Yeeeey.



laurie17 said:


> @Greyhart Sorry about your earring. I cried in an airport because I thought I lost a travel charm necklace my mum gave to me (that, plus travelling and being awake for over 20 hours already made me finally burst into tears at a security lady, who seemed terrified). I also got really upset when my cat got a bit funny after he hadn't seen me for about 4 months. I guess with pets, often there's the feeling you have an unbreakable bond... (my mum said I look at my cat like mothers look at their children :ball
> 
> The film was good :ghost3: me, my sister and my ExTP (okay, she's just going down as ESTP because she just is) friend had a great time watching it, then other friend said it was too cheesy and I started explaining how they're supposed to be cheesy - that's the whole point! The main dinosaur was really cool and the raptors were my favourites (though water dinosaur was also very cool).
> 
> I'm so jealous you have dinosaur toys. I don't think I ever got any when I was younger, despite loving Walking with Dinosaurs...


I liked how they got out of "Why raptors have no feathers?" with something along the lines "Back then [as in when they were natural species] they wouldn't even look like this."

I've cheap China plastic dinos. Ankylosaurus is bright light blue for some reason.



ElliCat said:


> *hugs* I've been there too. For me the guilt is overwhelming even if the other people involved don't care.
> 
> Nothing wrong with crying sometimes. Even ENTP's are (a little bit) human.


My brain thinks that any strong emotion that isn't anger or joy require crying. I actually not even sure what emotion I felt. Panic? Sadness? Stress?



shinynotshiny said:


> Aw. You're very sweet, @Greyhart. I don't have any sentimental objects like that, although I do keep any cards I get from family members.


I don't care for the earring, I wanted small silver rings (since I don't want my pierce to close) to replace them for a while. I care for disappointing my parents and money that gold represents. I could've sold that earring and bought dinosaurs. T_T


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> What a day.
> 
> In my video I am wearing golden earrings that grandma gave to my mom what I was born. I'm always wearing them (at home at least) because I assumed they meant a lot to my parents. So I woke up, went to wash my face and apparently I didn't lock one good enough and it fucking washed down the drain in my fucking bathtub. And my bathtub is made in such way that there's no way to open the drain without breaking whole bath apart. So I panicked, started crying because I assumed that parents would be sad/mad/disappointed, called my mom. She was completely chill about, said we lost more important things than one earring.
> 
> So I stopped crying at some point, got dressed and went to see Jurassic World with my INFP BFF. Guys, it's amazing. ~DINOSAURS~


I'm sorry that happened! When I was 9 I accidentally broke a decorative comb that had been handed down from my great-grandmother. It was a terrible feeling. I guess we've all been there. :/


----------



## Greyhart

Guys this mirror was awesome, I won't be able to afford replacement. T_T On a plus side, Since it's gone I have a good spot where I can put my dinos.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Owsin Thank you! So odd I talked excessively and I came across as... an introvert. O_O weird world.
@angelcat How could it be an insult to be compared to Cleopatra? She was fierce, independent, elegant and mysterious. Betty Page always reminded me of her. Was always more of an Audrey Hepburn fan, but I get compared to all the vintage beauties so it is suiting. The hair color is natural; but it was once eggplant purple and I've done black and various shades of burgundy. I used to hate it because I wanted blonde but I realized I pull off dark well. I was too afraid dark hair was not "sexy" enough until I realized there are plenty of fish in the deep blue sea.
@fair phantom! Aw thank you! I get old Hollywood or vintage quite a bit... I don't understand it as I'm not always in retro attire. Is it my make-up and hair? A general vibe?
@ElliCat @shinynotshiny probably thinks I'm overanalyzing hehehe but I hate how I came across... I didn't know what to say in certain parts so I just rambled for filler. I could of kept it laconic and curt but that would have been boring... but loquaciousness was also probably boring. I always worry I'm like those people who never shut up and are loud and grating... but then again people always ask me to speak up because my voice is "quiet" so I'm probably just overanalyizing.
@shinynotshiny You are dryer than Sahara Desert. Also, you're no Te dom. Very introverted.
@Greyhart Your low order Fe is adorable tbh. I do not like losing jewelry down the drain. Terrible. At least it beats dropping your jewelry in the toilet.

I love being a sensor guys. I got gorgeous clothes at a yardsale event today. No books; none interested me. Sad. Jurassic World was pretty good.


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> I'm sorry that happened! When I was 9 I accidentally broke a decorative comb that had been handed down from my great-grandmother. It was a terrible feeling. I guess we've all been there. :/


Most times I cried as a kid was because I thought I made my parents sad/mad about what I've done. I broke some family heirlooms too. :sad:



hoopla said:


> @Greyhart Your low order Fe is adorable tbh.


I feel lame about it when I'm calm. :|



> I do not like losing jewelry down the drain. Terrible. At least it beats dropping your jewelry in the toilet.


That's why I minimize amount I wear. I'll probably buy tiiiiny silver hoops, the kind that people wear in their noses. I probably won't feel them and it won't allow piercing to close.



> I love being a sensor guys. I got gorgeous clothes at a yardsale event today. Jurassic World was pretty good.


I love me some gorgeous clothes too.  I should raid second-hand store some time soon.


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> I had some! The one I remember best lived on my bedside table for _years_. I think I got it as a freebie with some fast food children's meal set. It was a glow-in-the-dark brontosaurus skeleton with a jade green plastic "flesh" cover you could take on and off. It was incredible. I wasn't even that into dinosaurs but it still made it into a place of honour.


That sounds like an incredible toy, especially for a free one! My sister got an archeological one where you had to dig a triceratops skeleton out of a block of clay. That was kind of cool. I think I mostly played with my friend's ones - he had loads of them.




SugarPlum said:


> I so do this too (for the reaction).
> 
> And ehhh, officially trying it on, and bringing up my concerns about it. I am really really open to discussion on the functions and how they may or may not fit my life.


Ah, well I don't have the looking for a reaction thing, but I do like to tell my friends about good books/films etc. that I enjoyed.




Greyhart said:


> I also just broke a full-height mirror I had in my room. Yeeeey.
> 
> I liked how they got out of "Why raptors have no feathers?" with something along the lines "Back then [as in when they were natural species] they wouldn't even look like this."
> 
> I've cheap China plastic dinos. Ankylosaurus is bright light blue for some reason.
> 
> I don't care for the earring, I wanted small silver rings (since I don't want my pierce to close) to replace them for a while. I care for disappointing my parents and money that gold represents. I could've sold that earring and bought dinosaurs. T_T


Oh dear... Well, my friend broke a mirror and hasn't had any bad luck, so if you're superstitious, I can confirm it doesn't happen.

Yeah, I thought that was a nice touch, plus generally no one knows what dinosaurs really looked like, their skeletons might have been misleading etc.

Ah, well there's nothing that can be done, so I'd just try not to think about it :ghost3: Accidents happen and they can be very frustrating. Maybe just make sure you keep a plug in your bath when wearing jewellery?




Greyhart said:


> Guys this mirror was awesome, I won't be able to afford replacement. T_T On a plus side, Since it's gone I have a good spot where I can put my dinos.


Oh okay, not superstitious, then. That sucks... You can look at the dinosaurs every morning to make it better?


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> [MENTION=228218]
> 
> Also, off topic, but do you think people leaving school have to start work immediately? I want to join all sorts of extracurricular clubs to just have fun, mostly archery, though. :happy:


Nah. It's your life. I volunteered abroad after high school, wish I'd done more though. I actually think it's better to do a sort of 'sampler plate' of things to see what works well for you. Volunteering will look ok on your resume, and you can build connections that will help you get a paying job. But just taking a year (or 6 months) or whatever to figure stuff out and try different things...just make sure you're actually doing stuff, not sitting around. 

I would have saved a lot of money, time, and frustration if I hadn't immediately given into the pressure to go to college and get a job right off. If I could do it again I would have handled it much differently.


----------



## Immolate

@Greyhart You're still sweet!

@hoopla "You are dryer than Sahara Desert." You have such a way with words, Hoops eaceful:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> I feel lame about it when I'm calm.



Don't worry. I feel lame when I'm "supposed" to cry and I do not. Also @angelcat I forgot; I hate my expressive face because I would like to be stoic... at times I'm very stoic... but when I'm engaged, I am not, so when I'm upset, you can read me loud and clear, no matter how mute. Facial expressions are their own language. 



Greyhart said:


> I love me some gorgeous clothes too.  I should raid second-hand store some time soon.


I bought a purple button up with a collar that looks like a windbreaker. It has patches women with gaudy, garish red hats sewn on. It's the worst. I got it for $2. You'd love it.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Do I... come across that way?
> 
> My Fe won't kill you if I dislike the assessment. I'm being sincere.


No, you didn't come across that way. I thought you were friendly.

I thought your answer to the question about authority was very Si, if I'm understanding Si correctly. You were also able to maintain the flow of conversation despite winging it. I have a hard time doing that because I prefer to think a bit before answering. I'm not sure what this says about your Ne, though.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> No, you didn't come across that way. I thought you were friendly.
> 
> I thought your answer to the question about authority was very Si, if I'm understanding Si correctly. You were also able to maintain the flow of conversation despite winging it. I have a hard time doing that because I prefer to think a bit before answering. I'm not sure what this says about your Ne, though.


I think it's the Fe.

I want to come across as approachable so I wing it... even if it's crap.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> @hoopla
> 
> call it "light tinge of pessimism"
> 
> Not sure about Ne position. Definitely saw Si and you seem to actually value Fe. My mother's Fe dominance is unmistakeable and in-your-face sort of way - I AM HAVE LOTS OF OPINIONS ABOUT EVERYTHING AND I'LL TELL YOU THEM ALL RIGHT NOW WATCH ME START A CONVERSATIONS WITH A RANDOM STRANGER OUTSIDE ALSO I JUST CAME HOW AFTER SPENDING ENTIRE DAY WITH PEOPLE AND I STILL WANT TO TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED. Yes, she talks in caps irl.


I'm also curious if I come off this way.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> BTW @angelcat , I just watched the episode of the Tudors when Catherine died. Her last letters, and the one to Henry! Oh. My. GAWD!
> :sad::crying:


Haven't gotten that far, I don't know if I should keep watching. I felt a weird mixture of boredom/anger when watching the series. I stopped watching after the episode where Henry was like, "So you were a f*cking virgin! That's not the point!" because I understood that I would never be able to like his character at all. Gosh, that made me angry. Not that I don't usually like being angry while watching TV...I was just too angry and not emotionally attached enough at the same time.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Mostly with the video it was for you guys... so I put on a show, even if it would have been more necessary to be candid, so I ran with Ne by it's coattails.

Definitely an Fe urge with that one. 

Not sure my Ti is really as high as some people think it is. But oh well.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> Haven't gotten that far, I don't know if I should keep watching. I felt a weird mixture of boredom/anger when watching the series. I stopped watching after the episode where Henry was like, "So you were a f*cking virgin! That's not the point!" because I understood that I would never be able to like his character at all. Gosh, that made me angry. Not that I don't usually like being angry while watching TV...I was just too angry and not emotionally attached enough at the same time.


YES! I know exactly what you are saying! That made me SO angry and SAD! Sad for her actually more than anything. I honestly feel that him and Anne are perfect for each other. Although, something about Anne intrigues me. I love to hate her and hate to love her. But him? ughhh yuck! although, for some reason, I had a small morsel of sadness for him when he was reading Catherine's last letter to him. Almost like I saw an ounce of regret and remorse in his face. You should watch... I wanna talk about it lol.


----------



## Greyhart

@Oswin @hoopla do you come off this way? No. But my mother is more tame online. She is very active in some communities on Facebook. She is very... eloquent and passionate in her writing but gets winded up just as easy as IRL.

The thing is I know only 2 people whom I am comfortable typing Fe doms so I don't have that much experience. I think Fe domness would show your in interactions with people.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> If you're willing to share, I'm interested in what you mean by this


I'm not sure what you want me to explain, so I'm just gonna say my whole deal, forgive me if it's not what you meant.

Holy Trinity = God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are three separate entities (Jesus is not the Holy Spirit) but they are each God -- one God. They are consubstantial, Like a shamrock, the three leaves are separate parts but it is one plant. I personally think it's a very similar concept to Hindu gods having different avatars but being essentially the same gods (and actually I do believe in my Eastern Religions class the teacher or book mentioned that some Hindus consider themselves monotheistic because all their gods are in fact variations on one central force? But I have no idea how correct or common that view is but I rather like that idea but tangent. Anyways, I'm not sure if theologians would consider it the same thing, probably not . . . but anyways, my point was that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is that the Three are One and the One is Three, and that it is a concept that humans cannot fully understand. (which incidentally fits in with my personal belief, not representative of the beliefs of most Christians or Catholics) that God is the force which resolves/allows for paradoxes, that paradox is holy in a sense. Which is why I like to think of the TARDIS in Doctor Who as almost a symbol for God, because it is 'big and little at the same time, brand new and ancient, and the bluest blue ever' but . . . again, tangent). So in some way that concept could be said to go against mathematical principles such as 3=/=1 but I would consider it a transcendence of those rules, not a defiance. Because it points at a world where mathematics is...transcended by higher principles, but not replaced, it still exists and contains value and truth, there is just something higher. Which is different from evidence-based things, which generally are and must be replaced when new evidence is found. Sorry, I don't think I'm explaining myself well...do I make sense?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> @Oswin @hoopla do you come off this way? No. But my mother is more tame online. She is very active in some communities on Facebook. She is very... eloquent and passionate in her writing but gets winded up just as easy as IRL.
> 
> The thing is I know only 2 people whom I am comfortable typing Fe doms so I don't have that much experience. I think Fe domness would show your in interactions with people.


I actually rarely use facebook. I would probably be more active if I invited more people but I'm not majorly into it. I like selfies sure but forget FB.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=228218" target="_blank">fair phantom</a></i></span>, well, if you want withdrawn, I've never considered myself part of any group, not really. Makes for a fun time at school, that's for dang sure. :wink: I'm not good at offering meaningful advice or understanding you, empathy isn't my strong point. But see, the thing with having your mouth disabled like I do is that it allows you to grow into a good listener. :laughing:
> 
> Also, off topic, but do you think people leaving school have to start work immediately? I want to join all sorts of extracurricular clubs to just have fun, mostly archery, though. :happy:


archery? cool! that's on my bucket list. what you do depends on how much you need money. You may want to try to get a part time job or a fairly regular volunteer job, just because having a long period without school or employment can hurt job prospects. But really it is up to you. 

And thank you for the offer. I may take you up on it when my head is clear.



shinynotshiny said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=228218" target="_blank">fair phantom</a></i></span> You make sense to me, or I think I understand you. I'll give an example. I took AP history courses in high school. The first was World History, the second was European History. The same teacher taught both classes, and group discussions, class participation, and presentations were class requirements. Ninth grade year I took World, tenth grade year I took European. The teacher didn't recognize me my tenth grade year, asked me what my name was, if I had ever taken AP courses, if I was new to the school, etc. That's how fucking withdrawn I am, I'm a ghost :encouragement:
> 
> So, at the very least, I understand where you're coming from. Take the time you need.


Thank you. I understand that ghost feeling. I used to consider this one of my theme songs.






Still sort of feel that way sometimes. :ghost3:



ElliCat said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=228218" target="_blank">fair phantom</a></i></span> I can understand you needing a break, but I trust that you know yourself well enough to know what types are and aren't on the table. As far as xNFP's not being interested in this at all, well, there is literally nothing else I relate to enough to even consider as an alternative type. So either I and a good part of the INFP subforum have a massive problem with our (combined??) understanding of the system, or it's not impossible for xNFP's to exist on this site.
> 
> Not arguing that there aren't mistyped INFP's on the site. Of course there are, and some of them eventually figure it out. But I don't want you to feel pressure to disregard ENFP or INxP if they're feeling the best fit for you.


Yes I am pretty certain at this point that I am an NFP. And while there are inevitably some mistypes around, I strongly doubt that you or @laurie17 are mistyped. 



> I understand too. I used to have small elective classes in high school, where we'd sit around in a circle. I'd frequently have classmates sitting directly across from me and wonder out loud where I was. I suspected they were being deliberately awful to me but they'd often be quite embarrassed when I'd wave at them, so I think I genuinely was that invisible. :-/


That is terrible. I'm so sorry people treated you that way. Their loss! 

I think people only had any idea who I was for 3 reasons: 1. there were less than 100 kids in my year (catholic school) 2. pale skin & red hair during the height of the tanning bed craze. I looked kind of like the photo negative of most of my white classmates. and 3. I don't want to get into three. But from what I've said about my history people might be able to guess how i'd have gained some notoriety. :dispirited:



hoopla said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=228218" target="_blank">fair phantom</a></i></span>! Aw thank you! I get old Hollywood or vintage quite a bit... I don't understand it as I'm not always in retro attire. Is it my make-up and hair? A general vibe?
> 
> I love being a sensor guys. I got gorgeous clothes at a yardsale event today. No books; none interested me. Sad. Jurassic World was pretty good.


It is more in your coloring (high contrast), features, the shape of your eyes (the eye makeup probably helps) rather than your style. I def see the Cleopatra thing too! 

Yay clothes. I need new clothes but I keep getting distracted and indecisive. I don't have a lot of money to work with so I have to be picky (also finding my size is a huge pain).

re: snow white it isn't that she isn't dreamy, but r_elatively_ I think Aurora is more dreamy. Snow White dreams while working and is therefore far more productive. And honestly I think it is often more just her expressing her feelings...wishing and longing. She does have an imagination, but it seems to show up most in the scenes where she is afraid. In contrast, Aurora gets completely caught up in her dreams. She has to act them out; she forgets her task; she becomes completely unaware of approaching prince.

*exits, pursued by a bear*


----------



## Greyhart

Some stories about mom. On Friday I visited her at... alley where her craftsmen union people sell their work. So she spent next hour walking me everywhere, introducing me to everyone, pointing fingers at everything. In 10 minutes I was like "Just keep cool, Eva. Just be cool." which probably contributed to me looking "unapproachable".

From here to Bulgaria it's a 2 day train ride. Guess who befriended entire train car she rode in? Yup. AGGRESSIVELY befriended. As in "Hey, I heard you here. How are you? Where do you go? Where are you from?". She managed to extract their life-stories out of all of them.









I think she is SP last type 2 if that's of any help.



hoopla said:


> I actually rarely use facebook. I would probably be more active if I invited more people but I'm not majorly into it. I like selfies sure but forget FB.


She keeps a track and comments on issues that my country faces. Issues that I aggressively avoid.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> YES! I know exactly what you are saying! That made me SO angry and SAD! Sad for her actually more than anything. I honestly feel that him and Anne are perfect for each other. Although, something about Anne intrigues me. I love to hate her and hate to love her. But him? ughhh yuck! although, for some reason, I had a small morsel of sadness for him when he was reading Catherine's last letter to him. Almost like I saw an ounce of regret and remorse in his face. You should watch... I wanna talk about it lol.


I did enjoy their relationship in the first season) I loved the scenes where he was brooding about her and like basically knocked over the table when someone said "Anne is here to see you")) There's something intriguing about both of them in the series. I should also watch further.

oh, I also stopped watching because I was really creeped out by the ghost of the girl the organ-boy had slept with? Though I should try again, I think it was more creepy because I was watching it in a hotel which is always creepier than at home)
(I also didn't follow his storyline well. He didn't want to sleep with the girls, then he had an affair with the really creepy blond guy, then he died and he was really sad, but then he decided he really liked the halo-girl and was being romantic with her and then she died and he immediately decided to marry her sister? And then he felt guilty I guess? I just was not seeing what was prompting any of his decisions)


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Greyhart said:


> Some stories about mom. On Friday I visited her at... alley where her craftsmen union people sell their work. So she spent next hour walking me everywhere, introducing me to everyone, pointing fingers at everything. In 10 minutes I was like "Just keep cool, Eva. Just be cool." which probably contributed to me looking "unapproachable".
> 
> From here to Bulgaria it's a 2 day train ride. Guess who befriended entire train car she rode in? Yup. AGGRESSIVELY befriended. As in "Hey, I heard you here. How are you? Where do you go? Where are you from?". She managed to extract their life-stories out of all of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think she is SP last type 2 if that's of any help.


Wow. XD People like that are so strange yet fascinating to me. Usually I find them annoying as hell, but these days I've been thinking I could use someone like that in my life, to drag me out of my social dormancy.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> I'm not sure what you want me to explain, so I'm just gonna say my whole deal, forgive me if it's not what you meant.
> 
> Holy Trinity = God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are three separate entities (Jesus is not the Holy Spirit) but they are each God -- one God. They are consubstantial, Like a shamrock, the three leaves are separate parts but it is one plant. I personally think it's a very similar concept to Hindu gods having different avatars but being essentially the same gods (and actually I do believe in my Eastern Religions class the teacher or book mentioned that some Hindus consider themselves monotheistic because all their gods are in fact variations on one central force? But I have no idea how correct or common that view is but I rather like that idea but tangent. Anyways, I'm not sure if theologians would consider it the same thing, probably not . . . but anyways, my point was that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is that the Three are One and the One is Three, and that it is a concept that humans cannot fully understand. (which incidentally fits in with my personal belief, not representative of the beliefs of most Christians or Catholics) that God is the force which resolves/allows for paradoxes, that paradox is holy in a sense. Which is why I like to think of the TARDIS in Doctor Who as almost a symbol for God, because it is 'big and little at the same time, brand new and ancient, and the bluest blue ever' but . . . again, tangent). So in some way that concept could be said to go against mathematical principles such as 3=/=1 but I would consider it a transcendence of those rules, not a defiance. Because it points at a world where mathematics is...transcended by higher principles, but not replaced, it still exists and contains value and truth, there is just something higher. Which is different from evidence-based things, which generally are and must be replaced when new evidence is found. Sorry, I don't think I'm explaining myself well...do I make sense?


With the math example, you could argue that your concept is like math, because math is all oriented towards the same goal.... solving and manipulating numbers and it's derivatives and measurements, but happens to have different branches (e.g. arithmetic, algebra, calculus, trigonometry, geometry). 

That's how I see it... religion all stems from the same central concept, but due to cultural influences, or the era in which the religion or God was conceived or developed, it fluctuates and creates branches. I do not believe humanity and community stem from the church; church is group think and conformity in many aspects. Doctrine. It rather stems from diversity; the plethora of ideologies all stemming from a central plane or root, which is inviting as it allows an individual to find a community that embraces them. When you separate an ideology from religion itself, it's limiting. There is freedom in choice, and that is much more inviting than a doctrine.

Church is a pseudo community; it deflates ideologies that contradict the specific doctrine it pedals whilst ignoring that all other religious communities share the same tree; the branches are separated, but the are held together by the same property or unit. It's smiles and get togethers masking it's main interest... to get you to believe in a specific ideology and shun the rest. If Church didn't feel like my "duty for God" I likely wouldn't have attended. I eventually left. 

Nothing against those who attend church; I just dislike doctrines.

Also Owsin... re-read your post and maybe your Si-Ne will click.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Somehow I really don't think the looked like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better yet - banish all jewelry!
> 
> 
> Idk how I'll put on makeup now.
> 
> 
> WHY THE HELL MIRRORS ARE SO EXPENSIVE I won't see myself full height anymore. All of my other mirrors are small.


Maybe they were tiny and plastic and someone planted the fossils? 

Haha, I don't have to worry about it too much because I only wear a necklace which I take off before I shower (in case it gets tangled in my hair and I have to chop it out or something).

Do you have a secondhand store or website you could order one from? They can have a lot of good deals.



SugarPlum said:


> :culpability: "Why" questions! ahhh lol. They make my head spin, although I enjoy giving them and i know they are necessary.
> 
> okay...
> 
> So hmmm... I honestly feel like if others jump on board and the other person feels attacked in anyway, it will cut off my access to information. Keep your enemies close I guess? Let me think of an example..
> 
> Okay, so let's say (COMPLETELY hypothetical), my sister's husband was rumored to be cheating on her. While everyone is flipping their shit on him, I am remaining cool as a cucumber trying to coerce him to come with me privately. On the inside I want to rip him to shreds, but on the outside I am acting non-judgmental/confrontational to drain him for all the information I can get from him. The less attacked he feels the more comfortable, the more info will be revealed. Then, once the full story is out, I process and if it is as bad at is was made out to be, WHoley shit, watch the f*** out. I may even show my right hook (yes, I have done this..not proud). If I see that there is more to the story, and it isn't what it's made out to be, then I will try and translate to clear up confusion to my sister.
> 
> Same with, for instance my own husband. When there have been certain things that may have looked questionable, inside I freak out, but outwardly, I stay calm and try and ask questions. To build the whole story. Once the story is built, then I will react accordingly. Once again, if i have all the pieces and it adds up to a "no bueno" moment, I can flip my shit. But I usually hold it in until I piece it all together.
> 
> Same with my kids. If I think they did something, I ask questions to make sure I punish them accordingly. I will almost make friends with them, so they feel comfortable to tell me the truth.
> 
> I hardly ever just 'react'. When I do, it is massive, and then I calm down. Kind of volcanic. But this is on things that have directly gone against my morals in a mischievous way. Or something that has interfered with my family. Like I don't need facts then, I just go in full protection-mode. Rumors and hear-say, I NEED further information. When things happen in front of my own eyes, I am more likely to react, although it still depends.
> 
> I also rely on my Si I think. I am alert and aware to abnormal behavior. VERY.
> 
> EDIT: I just remember doing this all through school. My whole life really. It's like, I feel like if they feel attacked or judged by me, then I will never get inside their head. I won't get the truth of the matter. I want to get to the core.
> 
> Other people jumping in, ruins that for me.


Thank you for the reply! :ghost3:

Hm, so you mentioned wanting the full picture a lot of the time. I know that's almost the opposite of my ISFP (?) friend, who jumps to conclusions based on very little evidence (maybe unhealthy Ni?) plus you want a variety of sources, which might be some Ne coming out under stress? I'm still having some trouble with the Fe-Ti vs Fi-Te thing though. @tine @alittlebear and @Greyhart do you have any good descriptions of how Ti-Fe might be used in these situations?


----------



## Immolate

@_Oswin_ I understood the concept of the Holy Trinity but was curious about your view of it as a transcendent number. I think you explained it well, thank you for sharing 

@_fair phantom_ The songs I listened to were so dreary, I don't dare inflict them upon you 

@_Greyhart_ My father is a bit like that, especially around people from his own country. They'll talk about the old days, exchange stories about childhood and how much they hated the government, drink coffee together (because that's what you offer guests, I'm talking a specific kind here), so on and so forth. I'm talking about people like plumbers or techs or random cashiers. They'll strike up conversation and it'll go on and on depending on generation, it was always too friendly for me. Even so, my family is quite introverted within the culture thank goodness


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> archery? cool! that's on my bucket list. what you do depends on how much you need money. You may want to try to get a part time job or a fairly regular volunteer job, just because having a long period without school or employment can hurt job prospects. But really it is up to you.
> 
> And thank you for the offer. I may take you up on it when my head is clear.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I understand that ghost feeling. I used to consider this one of my theme songs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still sort of feel that way sometimes. :ghost3:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I am pretty certain at this point that I am an NFP. And while there are inevitably some mistypes around, I strongly doubt that you or @laurie17 are mistyped.
> 
> 
> 
> That is terrible. I'm so sorry people treated you that way. Their loss!
> 
> I think people only had any idea who I was for 3 reasons: 1. there were less than 100 kids in my year (catholic school) 2. pale skin & red hair during the height of the tanning bed craze. I looked kind of like the photo negative of most of my white classmates. and 3. I don't want to get into three. But from what I've said about my history people might be able to guess how i'd have gained some notoriety. :dispirited:
> 
> 
> 
> It is more in your coloring (high contrast), features, the shape of your eyes (the eye makeup probably helps) rather than your style. I def see the Cleopatra thing too!
> 
> Yay clothes. I need new clothes but I keep getting distracted and indecisive. I don't have a lot of money to work with so I have to be picky (also finding my size is a huge pain).
> 
> re: snow white it isn't that she isn't dreamy, but r_elatively_ I think Aurora is more dreamy. Snow White dreams while working and is therefore far more productive. And honestly I think it is often more just her expressing her feelings...wishing and longing. She does have an imagination, but it seems to show up most in the scenes where she is afraid. In contrast, Aurora gets completely caught up in her dreams. She has to act them out; she forgets her task; she becomes completely unaware of approaching prince.
> 
> *exits, pursued by a bear*


<3 Tori Amos.

Coincidentally I am naturally drawn to the vintage. I guess it was born in my blood. And my face.

I am very good at budgeting and buying only what I know I will wear. I have marvelous self control. And I'm good at combining outfits so I don't need many clothes. I'm fortunate in that regard. It's food that grips me. Also I get the size thing.... for me it's my breasts. I may be petite, but I am still a DD ):


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Do you have a secondhand store or website you could order one from? They can have a lot of good deals.


And here problem arises - I could but I still would have to ask money from parents and mother is categorically opposed to buying second-hand mirror because they bring bad lack. Whatever. I'll get small mirror from my parents' flat.



> Haha, I don't have to worry about it too much because I only wear a necklace which I take off before I shower (in case it gets tangled in my hair and I have to chop it out or something)


No, I must have my "I'm still not out of my Green Day stage" smudgy eyeliner on.



> Hm, so you mentioned wanting the full picture a lot of the time. I know that's almost the opposite of my ISFP (?) friend, who jumps to conclusions based on very little evidence (maybe unhealthy Ni?) plus you want a variety of sources, which might be some Ne coming out under stress? I'm still having some trouble with the Fe-Ti vs Fi-Te thing though. @tine @alittlebear and @Greyhart do you have any good descriptions of how Ti-Fe might be used in these situations?


You mean hypothetical "This person close to me might've done something bad"? For sister's husband - he is rumored after all, people talk. If it's true they'll either settle it or diverse in which case I'll be there for my hypothetical sister. I'd probably avoid getting myself into it.

If I suspected my spouse of cheating I'd ask them head on. If I caught onto something that looked suspicious I'd keep talking until they either stumble or I decide they are saying truth. Same with hypothetical children. Or anything. I talk, basically. I need air to be cleared ASAP so I can deal with either fall out or just relax.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> My father is a bit like that, especially around people from his own country. They'll talk about the old days, exchange stories about childhood and how much they hated the government, drink coffee together (because that's what you offer guests, I'm talking a specific kind here), so on and so forth. I'm talking about people like plumbers or techs or random cashiers. They'll strike up conversation and it'll go on and on depending on generation, it was always too friendly for me. Even so, my family is quite introverted within the culture thank goodness


How do they do it even? So natural, it's scary. She can hold conversation without it dipping into "Well, I'll go now" all on her own.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> How do they do it even? So natural, it's scary. She can hold conversation without it dipping into "Well, I'll go now" all on her own.


It's one of those mysteries.


----------



## Darkbloom

God,I'm really starting to doubt dominant Fe


Edit: @Oswin,idk,those things to me don't seem that anti-ENFJ,I mean,why would it have to be Si over Ni?
But I'm completely lost either way XD


----------



## Persephone Soul

laurie17 said:


> Maybe they were tiny and plastic and someone planted the fossils?
> 
> Haha, I don't have to worry about it too much because I only wear a necklace which I take off before I shower (in case it gets tangled in my hair and I have to chop it out or something).
> 
> Do you have a secondhand store or website you could order one from? They can have a lot of good deals.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply! :ghost3:
> 
> Hm, so you mentioned wanting the full picture a lot of the time. I know that's almost the opposite of my ISFP (?) friend, who jumps to conclusions based on very little evidence (maybe unhealthy Ni?) plus you want a variety of sources, which might be some Ne coming out under stress? I'm still having some trouble with the Fe-Ti vs Fi-Te thing though. @tine @alittlebear and @Greyhart do you have any good descriptions of how Ti-Fe might be used in these situations?


What is weird though, I am an impuslive person, when it is with things that don't really matter. Like, I feel this constant feeling of being rushed. If I have an idea, I must act now. Or else the moment is gone. I have zero patience when i want something. Zero. I feel sooo pressured by time. Time is kind of 2 extremes for me. This may make next to no sense, but if I am not impatient and impulsive, I am the polar opposite, where I won't make a decision and I like to let fate take over. "Oh well, it will all fall into place"... But on things that matter, omg I get stuck in this cycle, brewing over and over and over, where I can not make a decision to save my life! That is when I have to narrow things down to the bare minimum. At that point I either give it up to God, or fate... or I start asking the people closest to me for their opinion. (Kinda like with this MBTI thing). I just have a very weird relationship with time. I don't do well with deadlines. They stress me out, and i end up not meeting them. It's like my brain numbs, and I become either mentally haywire, trying to figure out how I will meet it, or it just... stops. I become mentally paralyzed. But take the pressure off, and I become lazy and procrastinate like no other. Flash something in front of me, that I know I need to have or do I will impulsively grab it! Time is just NOT my friend. Give me too much, I take advantage of it. Give me not enough, I freak out and short circuit. Don't give me any, I act on impulse.

But in the aspect of forming an OPINION rather than making a 'decision', YES... I need more facts, because now it involves others. Decisions are tricky. It comes in many layers for me, and the context of the scenario will result in different decisions. But OPINIONS, I can come to rather quickly INTERNALLY, but I'm still always open to more information and when I feel like I have exhausted all different perspectives and it all comes together, THEN I will assert an opinion. Or, if I could care less either way, and I deem it to be no biggie, I will just say "ehh, no biggie".

I probably made no sense at all and probably contradicted myself many times. It's what I do. There are so many sides of me, and i am complex! I don't mean that in a "special snowflake" way. I mean, I am literally so versatile, and I feel like I don't fit in a box, even though I wish I could. It would be less confusing that way. So , welcome to my world. Not knowing which judging access i am on. :/


----------



## Greyhart

I tried making a temporary mirror out of a dinosaur atlas book and a cooking tin foil, turns out tin foil is a lot less reflective then I expected it to be.  I got so excited for a minute.


----------



## Persephone Soul

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/582794-hello-again.html

"Enter at your own risk" ^


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> I tried making a temporary mirror out of a dinosaur atlas book and a cooking tin foil, turns out tin foil is a lot less reflective then I expected it to be.  I got so excited for a minute.


The Ne way.

"Hmm... will this work?"


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> @_fair phantom_ The songs I listened to were so dreary, I don't dare inflict them upon you


Why not. I like dreary music. :ghost2:


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> With the math example, you could argue that your concept is like math, because math is all oriented towards the same goal.... solving and manipulating numbers and it's derivatives and measurements, but happens to have different branches (e.g. arithmetic, algebra, calculus, trigonometry, geometry).
> 
> That's how I see it... religion all stems from the same central concept, but due to cultural influences, or the era in which the religion or God was conceived or developed, it fluctuates and creates branches. I do not believe humanity and community stem from the church; church is group think and conformity in many aspects. Doctrine. It rather stems from diversity; the plethora of ideologies all stemming from a central plane or root, which is inviting as it allows an individual to find a community that embraces them. When you separate an ideology from religion itself, it's limiting. There is freedom in choice, and that is much more inviting than a doctrine.
> 
> Church is a pseudo community; it deflates ideologies that contradict the specific doctrine it pedals whilst ignoring that all other religious communities share the same tree; the branches are separated, but the are held together by the same property or unit. It's smiles and get togethers masking it's main interest... to get you to believe in a specific ideology and shun the rest. If Church didn't feel like my "duty for God" I likely wouldn't have attended. I eventually left.
> 
> Nothing against those who attend church; I just dislike doctrines.
> 
> Also Owsin... re-read your post and maybe your Si-Ne will click.


I feel like you're responding to something I didn't say? Is this whole thing because I used the word 'doctrine'?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

This is much better:






Still long. I apologize.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> @angelcat How could it be an insult to be compared to Cleopatra? She was fierce, independent, elegant and mysterious. Betty Page always reminded me of her. Was always more of an Audrey Hepburn fan, but I get compared to all the vintage beauties so it is suiting. The hair color is natural; but it was once eggplant purple and I've done black and various shades of burgundy. I used to hate it because I wanted blonde but I realized I pull off dark well. I was too afraid dark hair was not "sexy" enough until I realized there are plenty of fish in the deep blue sea.


Cleopatra rocked. Plus... she was doing Julius Caesar, and that's awesome. Not that... I adore long dead Roman ENTJs or ... anything.

I wish I had dark hair, but I don't. The darkest I've ever died it is dark brunette. Black would wash me out. PALE.



hoopla said:


> @angelcat I forgot; I hate my expressive face because I would like to be stoic... at times I'm very stoic... but when I'm engaged, I am not, so when I'm upset, you can read me loud and clear, no matter how mute. Facial expressions are their own language.


Me too. Damn it. Although I can use the expressions to great effect and look quite fierce / adorable if I want to, so life isn't all bad. 

Regarding you, I think you're too chill to be an ESFJ. That "calmness" you mentioned seeing in other Si-doms ... I see it in you.



SugarPlum said:


> BTW @angelcat , I just watched the episode of the Tudors when Catherine died. Her last letters, and the one to Henry! Oh. My. GAWD!
> :sad::crying:


Uh huh. I cry every time I watch that episode. Such a wonderful woman Katharine of Aragon was, and so forgiving, right up until the end. (And the series didn't even really, truly go into the deep wrongs that Henry committed against her. Rat fink bastard.) Still, you think that's bad? I'm writing a novel about her. I spun this wonderful love story with her and Arthur and then ... had to kill Arthur off in the last chapter. I was a mess. I cried. And I was listening to the Tudor soundtrack at the time, and her death scene track came on. That did NOT HELP. Why do I do these things to myself?! =P



Oswin said:


> Haven't gotten that far, I don't know if I should keep watching. I felt a weird mixture of boredom/anger when watching the series. I stopped watching after the episode where Henry was like, "So you were a f*cking virgin! That's not the point!" because I understood that I would never be able to like his character at all. Gosh, that made me angry. Not that I don't usually like being angry while watching TV...I was just too angry and not emotionally attached enough at the same time.


You're not supposed to like Henry. He's a rat fink bastard. And this Henry is actually nicer than the real one, too. The real one, I'm convinced, had some kind of sociopath-tendencies because ... you don't just behead wives and abandon people and kill your best friend because he disagrees with you as a sane person, even one who rules England. 

For me, the entire first season is all about KATHARINE ... the injustice done to her, her strength ... if you didn't make it to the episode where she faces down the papal court utterly alone, you missed out on her most magnificent moment. She says her thing, turns away, and strides out -- leaving it all behind forever, Henry utterly humiliated, the crowds on the street cheering her on ... ah, I love it. "The Tudors" is the only series that has even remotely come close to doing her justice. Everywhere else she's this grouchy, sullen old bag who just happens to be in the way of Anne and Henry's "love story."

Some love story. In real life, he was a fat, demanding fellow who wanted Anne, and she turned up her nose at him, because ... why would anyone WANT to be his mistress? He begged. He wrote poetry. She ignored him, and finally said, "Fine, make me queen then." I doubt she thought that was remotely possible, but when it all fell into motion ... she went along with it. And then did some very foolish things to make him angry.

Something "The Tudors" does wrong is paint some of the wives as semi-deserving of their fate, including Anne. They made her into such a hypocrite (none of my ladies will be immoral, here is a Bible -- read it, never mind I seduced the King away from his wife last season and was ... doing things I ought not and that the Bible forbids...) that I had a hard time feeling sorry for her when she died. That happens a lot. The vilification of Anne. She's kind of a bitch in "The Tudors." She's absolutely a bitch in "Wolf Hall" and in "The Other Boleyn Girl." The real one? Sometimes bitchy, but not in any sense scheming or a villain. HENRY was the villain in all their stories. HENRY was the threat. HENRY is the one who deserves the blame. Not that any of them were saints, mind, but ... he was just ... a monster.



SugarPlum said:


> YES! I know exactly what you are saying! That made me SO angry and SAD! Sad for her actually more than anything. I honestly feel that him and Anne are perfect for each other. Although, something about Anne intrigues me. I love to hate her and hate to love her. But him? ughhh yuck! although, for some reason, I had a small morsel of sadness for him when he was reading Catherine's last letter to him. Almost like I saw an ounce of regret and remorse in his face. You should watch... I wanna talk about it lol.


(Sorry, the history lesson continues, but I've been obsessed with these people for years.)

This Henry has a chronic case of buyer's remorse. The fact that he treated Katharine so badly, and has put all his hopes on Anne, who has thus far failed him, caused him, after Katharine's death, to yes, feel remorse. The real Henry, though? Doubt it. When he was done with people, he was done with them. I feel no empathy for Henry, although the series tries to make me feel sorry for him. Nope. Uh-uh. I'd dig up his bones, salt them, and burn them if I could. That's how angry I am about his treatment of all the women in his life. 

Anyway...

So today I spent most of the day with my ISFJ friend. Makes me laugh how different we are. She drags me to antique stores, and she gushes over the weirdest old stuff, and I stand there not wanting to touch anything much and don't buy anything. She bought an old 8track camera of some kind to take home and pull apart, and a photograph of a junk car. She carries around an Elvis purse and stops to look at I Love Lucy stuff, and she hates getting rid of anything. I go through and purge my stuff quite often (only a few childhood toys have stuck around). I am much more Regency or Victorian than the 50's. Peas in a pod, we are not. NOTHING alike. Minor cross-over in our shows, but ... she's a sunflower and I'm a bluebell.


----------



## Immolate

Been so exhausted, took a nap, now there's a second video.

uffer:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> I feel like you're responding to something I didn't say? Is this whole thing because I used the word 'doctrine'?


Did I misinterpret?

I did go off in a tangent in the third paragraph. I'm apt to such a thing.
@angelcat Everyone wishes their genes were generous and provided them the hair opposite to that of which they were given. If I were blond, I would wash out automatically. I've considered light brown with honey streaks. My hair also looks darker than it is due to the lightening, but brown it is.

Ironically... I am pale, and blond would wash me out. Skin tone is weird.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Been so exhausted, took a nap, now there's a second video.
> 
> uffer:


Trimmed.

And still long.

I'm all about thoroughness. I am obnoxious.

I deleted the first.

And yay you're back!

I am re-reading the study about sexual cannibalism in insects. Thank you.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> @angelcat Everyone wishes their genes were generous and provided them the hair opposite to that of which they were given. If I were blond, I would wash out automatically. I've considered light brown with honey streaks. My hair also looks darker than it is due to the lightening, but brown it is.
> 
> Ironically... I am pale, and blond would wash me out. Skin tone is weird.


I wore a black wig for Halloween one year. My costume was Anne Boleyn. Full skirt, petticoats, long black hair, B necklace, the works.

One little kid would not approach me, because she thought I was a witch. I freaked her out that much. Too washed out. LOL


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Trimmed.
> 
> And still long.
> 
> I'm all about thoroughness. I am obnoxious.
> 
> I deleted the first.
> 
> And yay you're back!
> 
> I am re-reading the study about sexual cannibalism in insects. Thank you.


Not obnoxious, I'm just so tired lately.

Happy to help :glee:


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> The Ne way.
> 
> "Hmm... will this work?"


I can't believe I made than/then mistake, I never do that mistake.

_______________
Jurassic Park 3



> 01:08:46 I have a theory that there are two kinds of boys.
> 01:08:49 There are those who want to be astronomers
> 01:08:51 and those who want to be astronauts.
> 01:08:54 The astronomer, or the paleontologist
> 01:08:57 gets to study these amazing things
> 01:09:01 from a place of complete safety.
> 01:09:03 But then you never get to go into space.
> 01:09:06 Exactly.
> 01:09:07 It's the difference between imagining and seeing.
> 01:09:10 To be able to touch them.


 @hoopla your first video was spades above mine in coherency. Watching second. I don't think you are inferior Ti.

I should remake mine but talking to camera is so tedious.



hoopla said:


> Did I misinterpret?
> 
> I did go off in a tangent in the third paragraph. I'm apt to such a thing.
> @angelcat Everyone wishes their genes were generous and provided them the hair opposite to that of which they were given. If I were blond, I would wash out automatically. I've considered light brown with honey streaks. My hair also looks darker than it is due to the lightening, but brown it is.
> 
> Ironically... I am pale, and blond would wash me out. Skin tone is weird.


Anything but red or brown washes me out. :|


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Did I misinterpret?
> 
> I did go off in a tangent in the third paragraph. I'm apt to such a thing.
> @angelcat Everyone wishes their genes were generous and provided them the hair opposite to that of which they were given. If I were blond, I would wash out automatically. I've considered light brown with honey streaks. My hair also looks darker than it is due to the lightening, but brown it is.
> 
> Ironically... I am pale, and blond would wash me out. Skin tone is weird.


I'm not sure, it felt like a non-sequitor so maybe. 
Anyways, I was using the word 'doctrine' in the sense of 'teaching' not . . . that thing that people hate that is also called doctrine)

My hair is naturally very dark, I dyed it blonde which everyone says makes me look washed-out..but I personally like the look) I like pale skin and dark hair too)
but I am trying to grow it out again because blonde hair just doesn't feel like me.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> I can't believe I made than/then mistake, I never do that mistake.
> 
> _______________
> Jurassic Park 3
> 
> 
> @hoopla your first video was spades above mine in coherency. I should remake mine but talking to camera is so tedious.


I love your Ne... because where the fuck do those associations come from? Somewhere... you have Watching second. I don't think you are inferior Ti.

to examine under the microscope to find them, but they do exist, but they are not the point.

I am poetic... sometimes it does weird people out... but I'm no Regina Spektor. Or you. 

...Or wait, did you mean in terms of accent rather than in terms of Ne?  

Why not inferior Ti?

Personally I believe I am not antagonistic towards the sensory, but reality. Make sense? Total difference.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> I love your Ne... because where the fuck do those associations come from? Somewhere... you have Watching second. I don't think you are inferior Ti.





> Why not inferior Ti?


Impression from both videos - still professor. Fe doms are more like "WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING!" even the one with a degree in nerd science.



> to examine under the microscope to find them, but they do exist, but they are not the point.
> I am poetic... sometimes it does weird people out... but I'm no Regina Spektor. Or you.


I hardly poetic  Damn them NFPs and their seemingly natural ability to write feelings. Yes, my INFP bff wrote tons of poetry as a teen and I _actually_ enjoyed reading it.



> Personally I believe I am not antagonistic towards the sensory, but reality. Make sense? Total difference.


With what I know about Si now, it does. 

___

I want a velociraptor toy so bad. Why don't I have any velociraptor dinos.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Impression from both videos - still professor. Fe doms are more like "WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING!" even the one with a degree in nerd science.
> 
> 
> I hardly poetic  Damn them NFPs and their seemingly natural ability to write feelings. Yes, my INFP bff wrote tons of poetry as a teen and I _actually_ enjoyed reading it.
> 
> 
> With what I know about Si now, it does.
> 
> ___
> 
> I want a velociraptor toy so bad. Why don't I have any velociraptor dinos.


I am rewatching your video again. I still can't make it all out.

HOWEVER

with concentration I can unravel the message.

I love how you considered yourself in school. "I would not want to be that person because I was mean". I laugh at silly things.


----------



## Dangerose

Ha, there were about 10 little kids visiting the house where I work. I finally found the cat attempting to hide in the bathroom sink. Now she is curled up on my lap with her head buried in my arm and will not budge. I am her protector.

(She's not sick, just scared. She gets like this whenever kids visit. Definitely an introvert  )


----------



## Immolate

I prefer brunettes. Never understood the obsession with blondes.

What else are we talking about...?

(almost done with the video, @hoopla)


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> I love how you considered yourself in school. "I would not want to be that person because I was mean". I laugh at silly things.


I *was* an ass. Actually I wouldn't want to be any past versions of me maybe except for 6 years old despite horrible health issues back then. I had my cheap plastic dinos and was happy. What a life.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I *was* an ass. Actually I wouldn't want to be any past versions of me maybe except for 6 years old despite horrible health issues back then. I had my cheap plastic dinos and was happy. What a life.


I was also an ass at times.

There was this girl who didn't like me, and I didn't like her. Mind games back and forth.

Teen years. Eugh.

:nonchalance:


----------



## Dangerose

Here, let's discuss: do you guys think I look better blonde:

































or brunette?

































because my roots are tragic:
















but I don't want to redye if I'm going to go back to brown but if I unquestionably look better blonde then I could just keep dying my hair blonde for the rest off my life

edit: sorry for all the pictures my face ended up bigger on the screen than I was envisioning


----------



## Adena

@Oswin you're pretty either way, but I say brunette!


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> @angelcat How could it be an insult to be compared to Cleopatra? She was fierce, independent, elegant and mysterious. Betty Page always reminded me of her. Was always more of an Audrey Hepburn fan, but I get compared to all the vintage beauties so it is suiting. The hair color is natural; but it was once eggplant purple and I've done black and various shades of burgundy. I used to hate it because I wanted blonde but I realized I pull off dark well. I was too afraid dark hair was not "sexy" enough until I realized there are plenty of fish in the deep blue sea.
> 
> 
> 
> Cleopatra rocked. Plus... she was doing Julius Caesar, and that's awesome. Not that... I adore long dead Roman ENTJs or ... anything.
> 
> I wish I had dark hair, but I don't. The darkest I've ever died it is dark brunette. Black would wash me out. PALE.
> 
> 
> 
> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> @angelcat I forgot; I hate my expressive face because I would like to be stoic... at times I'm very stoic... but when I'm engaged, I am not, so when I'm upset, you can read me loud and clear, no matter how mute. Facial expressions are their own language.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Me too. Damn it. Although I can use the expressions to great effect and look quite fierce / adorable if I want to, so life isn't all bad.
> 
> Regarding you, I think you're too chill to be an ESFJ. That "calmness" you mentioned seeing in other Si-doms ... I see it in you.
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW @angelcat , I just watched the episode of the Tudors when Catherine died. Her last letters, and the one to Henry! Oh. My. GAWD!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Uh huh. I cry every time I watch that episode. Such a wonderful woman Katharine of Aragon was, and so forgiving, right up until the end. (And the series didn't even really, truly go into the deep wrongs that Henry committed against her. Rat fink bastard.) Still, you think that's bad? I'm writing a novel about her. I spun this wonderful love story with her and Arthur and then ... had to kill Arthur off in the last chapter. I was a mess. I cried. And I was listening to the Tudor soundtrack at the time, and her death scene track came on. That did NOT HELP. Why do I do these things to myself?! =P
> 
> 
> 
> Oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't gotten that far, I don't know if I should keep watching. I felt a weird mixture of boredom/anger when watching the series. I stopped watching after the episode where Henry was like, "So you were a f*cking virgin! That's not the point!" because I understood that I would never be able to like his character at all. Gosh, that made me angry. Not that I don't usually like being angry while watching TV...I was just too angry and not emotionally attached enough at the same time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're not supposed to like Henry. He's a rat fink bastard. And this Henry is actually nicer than the real one, too. The real one, I'm convinced, had some kind of sociopath-tendencies because ... you don't just behead wives and abandon people and kill your best friend because he disagrees with you as a sane person, even one who rules England.
> 
> For me, the entire first season is all about KATHARINE ... the injustice done to her, her strength ... if you didn't make it to the episode where she faces down the papal court utterly alone, you missed out on her most magnificent moment. She says her thing, turns away, and strides out -- leaving it all behind forever, Henry utterly humiliated, the crowds on the street cheering her on ... ah, I love it. "The Tudors" is the only series that has even remotely come close to doing her justice. Everywhere else she's this grouchy, sullen old bag who just happens to be in the way of Anne and Henry's "love story."
> 
> Some love story. In real life, he was a fat, demanding fellow who wanted Anne, and she turned up her nose at him, because ... why would anyone WANT to be his mistress? He begged. He wrote poetry. She ignored him, and finally said, "Fine, make me queen then." I doubt she thought that was remotely possible, but when it all fell into motion ... she went along with it. And then did some very foolish things to make him angry.
> 
> Something "The Tudors" does wrong is paint some of the wives as semi-deserving of their fate, including Anne. They made her into such a hypocrite (none of my ladies will be immoral, here is a Bible -- read it, never mind I seduced the King away from his wife last season and was ... doing things I ought not and that the Bible forbids...) that I had a hard time feeling sorry for her when she died. That happens a lot. The vilification of Anne. She's kind of a bitch in "The Tudors." She's absolutely a bitch in "Wolf Hall" and in "The Other Boleyn Girl." The real one? Sometimes bitchy, but not in any sense scheming or a villain. HENRY was the villain in all their stories. HENRY was the threat. HENRY is the one who deserves the blame. Not that any of them were saints, mind, but ... he was just ... a monster.
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> YES! I know exactly what you are saying! That made me SO angry and SAD! Sad for her actually more than anything. I honestly feel that him and Anne are perfect for each other. Although, something about Anne intrigues me. I love to hate her and hate to love her. But him? ughhh yuck! although, for some reason, I had a small morsel of sadness for him when he was reading Catherine's last letter to him. Almost like I saw an ounce of regret and remorse in his face. You should watch... I wanna talk about it lol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> (Sorry, the history lesson continues, but I've been obsessed with these people for years.)
> 
> This Henry has a chronic case of buyer's remorse. The fact that he treated Katharine so badly, and has put all his hopes on Anne, who has thus far failed him, caused him, after Katharine's death, to yes, feel remorse. The real Henry, though? Doubt it. When he was done with people, he was done with them. I feel no empathy for Henry, although the series tries to make me feel sorry for him. Nope. Uh-uh. I'd dig up his bones, salt them, and burn them if I could. That's how angry I am about his treatment of all the women in his life.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> So today I spent most of the day with my ISFJ friend. Makes me laugh how different we are. She drags me to antique stores, and she gushes over the weirdest old stuff, and I stand there not wanting to touch anything much and don't buy anything. She bought an old 8track camera of some kind to take home and pull apart, and a photograph of a junk car. She carries around an Elvis purse and stops to look at I Love Lucy stuff, and she hates getting rid of anything. I go through and purge my stuff quite often (only a few childhood toys have stuck around). I am much more Regency or Victorian than the 50's. Peas in a pod, we are not. NOTHING alike. Minor cross-over in our shows, but ... she's a sunflower and I'm a bluebell.
Click to expand...

welllll... thank you for clearing the Henry thing up for me! I have dabbled in the history, but am no expert. I figured they painted him more remorseful than reality. But now, knowing this... i will no longer be sucked in. 

Do you think I could ISFJ?


----------



## Greyhart

Gray Romantic said:


> @Oswin you're pretty either way, but I say brunette!


I second that. Brown hair power unite!


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> welllll... thank you for clearing the Henry thing up for me! I have dabbled in the history, but am no expert. I figured they painted him more remorseful than reality. But now, knowing this... i will no longer be sucked in.
> 
> Do you think I could ISFJ?


Sugar Plum, I personally do not think you are ISFJ. I think it's off the table. Si-aux seems reasonable but I really, really doubt you're a Si-dom.


----------



## Immolate

@Oswin I agree you're pretty either way 

My impressions: you look younger and more innocent as a brunette, whereas the blonde makes you look older but not in a bad way.


----------



## Dangerose

@Greyhart, @Gray Romantic, thanks) I guess I know I should choose brunette but there's a fledgling hope in me that wants to be blonde and I hate killing that dream))

and @shinynotshiny) I think I see what you mean, it's kinda backwards from what one usually thinks (blonde=younger) Thanks)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oawin, i just posted this same thing on my fb. 30 comments later , it was unanimous... DARK lol. My roots are tragic as well.

Anywa, I think the dark hair bright lips look great on you.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Oawin, i just posted this same thing on my fb. 30 comments later , it was unanimous... DARK lol. My roots are tragic as well.
> 
> Anywa, I think the dark hair bright lips look great on you.


I was following that)
Thanks for your opinion)


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> 
> @angelcat Everyone wishes their genes were generous and provided them the hair opposite to that of which they were given. If I were blond, I would wash out automatically. I've considered light brown with honey streaks. My hair also looks darker than it is due to the lightening, but brown it is.
> 
> Ironically... I am pale, and blond would wash me out. Skin tone is weird.
> 
> 
> 
> I wore a black wig for Halloween one year. My costume was Anne Boleyn. Full skirt, petticoats, long black hair, B necklace, the works.
> 
> One little kid would not approach me, because she thought I was a witch. I freaked her out that much. Too washed out. LOL
Click to expand...

I actually love the witchy woman look. Porcelain skin, dark hair, light eyes, bright lips.

or olive skin, light hair, honey eyes, soft lips.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> Here, let's discuss: do you guys think I look better blonde:
> 
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> or brunette?
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> because my roots are tragic:
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> but I don't want to redye if I'm going to go back to brown but if I unquestionably look better blonde then I could just keep dying my hair blonde for the rest off my life
> 
> edit: sorry for all the pictures my face ended up bigger on the screen than I was envisioning


You are beautiful. So ethereal; too pure for this world.

You suit both, but blonde looks more fun and vivacious (yet still shy), whereas burnette is more subdued and matured.

You also bare a Hollywood beauty to you. I'm more.. nerdy looking. But still have that vintage mystique. It's the softness we both allude, I believe. 
@angelcat I am more like your friend. Minus the 50's. Though I bought a rockability top today; black with babydoll sleeves and an iconic cherry print, since a friend of mine told me I look rockability! It's the hair and my fondness for all things polka-dotted, as well as the Ronald McDonald lipstick. I am a kid in a candy store in an antique shop. I could look for hours. I've considered working at one. I actually... made friends with a store manger once. Not outside of the store, but we held conversations. I shock myself quite a bit. That's what happens when you're a curious regular.

Victorian era is my favorite too. Edwardian gets a second mention because I love ragtime.


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> @Greyhart, @Gray Romantic, thanks) I guess I know I should choose brunette but there's a fledgling hope in me that wants to be blonde and I hate killing that dream))
> 
> and @shinynotshiny) I think I see what you mean, it's kinda backwards from what one usually thinks (blonde=younger) Thanks)


Meh, bleaching kills your hair faaaast. I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you _really_ love being blonde.


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## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> Meh, bleaching kills your hair faaaast. I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you _really_ love being blonde.


Or have naturally dark hair that you wish resembled an eggplant.


----------



## Bugs

Oswin said:


> Here, let's discuss: do you guys think I look better blonde:
> 
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> 
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> 
> or brunette?
> 
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> 
> because my roots are tragic:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I don't want to redye if I'm going to go back to brown but if I unquestionably look better blonde then I could just keep dying my hair blonde for the rest off my life
> 
> edit: sorry for all the pictures my face ended up bigger on the screen than I was envisioning


----------



## Immolate

@Bugs










@hoopla I agree you come across more reserved in the new video. Confident in ISFJ, or?


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## Dangerose

Bugs said:


>












(sorry, I'm super proud of my newfound ability to do pop culture references)
@hoopla, thank you!) now I feel like I was fishing for compliments(
My first thought when I saw you was Donna Reed -- I don't know if the facial structure is similar (a little I think) but you have that sort of presence I think.








@shinynotshiny, I was curious, are you . . . Persian? Turkish? Arabic? Sorry if it's a personal question, you don't have to answer, but I've been trying to figure it out)


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> @_shinynotshiny_, I was curious, are you . . . Persian? Turkish? Arabic? Sorry if it's a personal question, you don't have to answer, but I've been trying to figure it out)


Ah :laughing:

I like to remain anonymous~ but I'll admit I'm Cuban/Puerto Rican.


----------



## Dangerose

Also, I should probably not do my job because I am not really good at it? In the sense that I am constantly filled with frustration and am fairly brief, not super patient or attentive (the other caretakers are surprised at how easily I am able to get her to go to bed, or go on walks, but I am just really direct and, I don't know, "Why don't we start heading back" and then I just act really firm, I guess they try to talk her into things every time? Which I should do, I know, but...it's not going to happen), so I do feel it is morally wrong for me to do the job, but I need money and I'm not sure what else I would do, nor am I sure that whoever would replace me would be better. I do need to find a career path, though, and I feel finally prepared to commit to something, like everything is finally kind-of sorted out. So I'll cross that bridge when it comes I guess.


----------



## Persephone Soul

The stuff that you say seems Si/Fi'ish, i relate to. But reversed. I am on my phone so I can't pull up the exact things you were saying. But ehh... right when I think, "hmm Fe may be a thing for me. Just with a Fi flavor"... i start to take it back and think, "nah... more like Fi with a Fe flavor". I know my Si is strong. Ugh.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> The stuff that you say seems Si/Fi'ish, i relate to. But reversed. I am on my phone so I can't pull up the exact things you were saying. But ehh... right when I think, "hmm Fe may be a thing for me. Just with a Fi flavor"... i start to take it back and think, "nah... more like Fi with a Fe flavor". I know my Si is strong. Ugh.


Maybe I _am_ ISTJ. That seems like...the anti-me, almost. I mean...I was the girl who would forget to hand in homework assignments? but it might actually make...more sense than anything else? Maybe?


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## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stuff that you say seems Si/Fi'ish, i relate to. But reversed. I am on my phone so I can't pull up the exact things you were saying. But ehh... right when I think, "hmm Fe may be a thing for me. Just with a Fi flavor"... i start to take it back and think, "nah... more like Fi with a Fe flavor". I know my Si is strong. Ugh.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I _am_ ISTJ. That seems like...the anti-me, almost. I mean...I was the girl who would forget to hand in homework assignments? but it might actually make...more sense than anything else? Maybe?
Click to expand...

Well my VERY first impression of you was ENFP. ENFPs are inside out ISTJs.


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## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Well my VERY first impression of you was ENFP. ENFPs are inside out ISTJs.


I don't think I'm ENFP. Maybe...maybe maybe maybe I'm ISTJ.
Oh my gosh, this will open up so many doors to allowing myself to make lots and lots of interesting lists.
ISTJ? Does anyone object?


----------



## Dangerose

But I killed the conversation again. (
Everyone, talk about...shadow functions! Have you had times when your shadow functions showed themselves?


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## Persephone Soul

SugarPlum said:


> Has anyone seen the new show called "Stitchers"?
> 
> I am watching the pilot right now. Seems very interesting. ..


Yup! So far so good. Anyone see this show yet?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Well, when I saw you fixed on the SJ kick for awhile, i was thinking ISTJ > ISFJ.

Honestly, who knows anymore. I feel like everyone is so muddled and unclear now. Ugh. Wish I could erase all memory/trace of me and start over. Take my time and bot get off track. Wait til my type is nailed down, THEN start interacting. I highly doubt this could happen now. I feel it's too late to get outside help in here, for me at this point. lol


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## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Well, when I saw you fixed on the SJ kick for awhile, i was thinking ISTJ > ISFJ.
> 
> Honestly, who knows anymore. I feel like everyone is so muddled and unclear now. Ugh. Wish I could erase all memory of me and start over. Take my time and bow get off track. Wait til my type is nailed down, THEN start intereacting. I highly doubt this happening now. I feel it's too late to get outside help lol


WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING?????
Here's the thing. I'm not changing my type again. If anyone has anything to say about my type...say it now. 
SugarPlum, I think you're INFP.


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## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Well, when I saw you fixed on the SJ kick for awhile, i was thinking ISTJ > ISFJ.
> 
> Honestly, who knows anymore. I feel like everyone is so muddled and unclear now. Ugh. Wish I could erase all memory of me and start over. Take my time and bow get off track. Wait til my type is nailed down, THEN start intereacting. I highly doubt this happening now. I feel it's too late to get outside help lol


WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING?????
Here's the thing. I'm not changing my type again. If anyone has anything to say about my type...say it now. 
SugarPlum, I think you're INFP.


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## Persephone Soul

Well, I kinnnda did. Actually it really feels like I mentioned it. I have never been on board with the Fe dom thing for you. Remember, I kept saying, if you're Fe, its lower. I also kept saying that your don't give your T enough credit. And Fi is ver very possible. 

I just dont knowwww anymore. 

I feel you use lower Fe, and Ni/Se. But STP don't seem right. INFJ seems possible still! (or ISFP).


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## Persephone Soul

what I dont see as possible

- Ne dom
- Se dom
- Te dom
- Ti dom


What I do see as possible

- Fe dom (mayyybe)
- Fi dom
- Ni dom
- Si dom (mayyybe)

and I see Ni over Ne, yet I see both Si and Se.


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## Dangerose

Here's what I've decided. My confusion regarding my type is because I have several different, yet similar, type theories floating in my brain, vying for dominance. I need to sift through them and choose the one theory that is in fact correct. And commit to it. In which case I will be able to start confidently typing others and such. Prepare for a long comment, but please don't let this conversation fall into a pit of Oswin, entertain yourselves, I feel like I am a black hole taking the life out of this thread, but you are all welcome to ignore me.


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## ElliCat

@hoopla I saw the video was deleted and I was going to yell at you but then I found the replacement so everything's okay. I can really see the Cleopatra/Snow White/rockabilly hybrid and it is wonderful. Not seeing Fe-dom/Ti-inferior either... I think ISFJ is good.



fair phantom said:


> aYes I am pretty certain at this point that I am an NFP. And while there are inevitably some mistypes around, I strongly doubt that you or @laurie17 are mistyped.


I know I'm not, and I think Laurie discussed things quite a bit before officially making the change, so I don't doubt it there either. I half don't care, and half feel a bit miffed at the implication that either my knowledge is lacking or I'm falling victim to snowflakery.



> That is terrible. I'm so sorry people treated you that way. Their loss!


*hair flip* I know it is. 



> I think people only had any idea who I was for 3 reasons: 1. there were less than 100 kids in my year (catholic school) 2. pale skin & red hair during the height of the tanning bed craze. I looked kind of like the photo negative of most of my white classmates. and 3. I don't want to get into three. But from what I've said about my history people might be able to guess how i'd have gained some notoriety. :dispirited:


Oh I had a very similar school to you I think (geography aside). I think you rock the pale skin and red hair, and that it looks much better than the tanning bed craze, but I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.



Greyhart said:


> Some stories about mom. On Friday I visited her at... alley where her craftsmen union people sell their work. So she spent next hour walking me everywhere, introducing me to everyone, pointing fingers at everything. In 10 minutes I was like "Just keep cool, Eva. Just be cool." which probably contributed to me looking "unapproachable".
> 
> From here to Bulgaria it's a 2 day train ride. Guess who befriended entire train car she rode in? Yup. AGGRESSIVELY befriended. As in "Hey, I heard you here. How are you? Where do you go? Where are you from?". She managed to extract their life-stories out of all of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think she is SP last type 2 if that's of any help.


I KNEW IT! Our mothers are almost the same person. :whoa: (Except mine's probably sp/so.) Your mother sounds more like stories I've heard about my grandfather, who apparently used to befriend strangers in a similarly aggressive way. (Unfortunately I can't guess at his type or get his side of the story because he's no longer around, in the earthly physical sense at least.) My grandmother still tut-tuts over it, which I find hilarious because she tends to aggressively make conversation with strangers in everyday situations, but I don't know if it's out of love of humanity or just because she thinks the world will fall apart and society will stop functioning if people don't engage in small talk.

And meanwhile I'm just like












hoopla said:


> Ironically... I am pale, and blond would wash me out. Skin tone is weird.


Yeah a lot of people seem to think that "pale" is the definitive aspect of skin tone but even within different darkness levels there are varying degrees of warm/cool and how much contrast it can handle. I do not see you as blonde; I think darker is best on you.

I have some boring medium ashy brown and that's all I can do. Either extreme washes me out, and red just makes me look even more flushed. Siiiigh.

@Oswin no solid opinion on your type, but I'm not a fan of the blonde and I don't know why you'd want to go there when you look so perfect as a brunette!

Well that's a lie. I know why you'd want to. Grass is always greener. :fatigue: But no, the brown is lovely on you.


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, I think things will get mixed up and be too subjective if I use the first person, so I'm going to speak from the third person, speaking as the Voice of Oswin's Objectivity. You are free to imagine gifted psychiatrist Niles Crane as my Voice of Objectivity as I will be doing, but you may envision whoever you wish.









(Also, gonna post these one at a time so that it's not a monster post, so I don't get bored, and so you can 'thank' the ones you are convinced by)
(maybe I should move this into it's own thread but no one will read it there)

*Fe-dominance* (this will also apply to Fe-aux)

Oswin, my love, you are clearly an ExFJ. Your Fe is clearly one of the defining building blocks of your personality. Your focus is always on other people, and it always has been. When you were a child, watching the other children playing on the playground and not joining in, your world was dominated with Fe. You were afraid of being rejected, you were seeing a group and, since your developing mind was so set to perceive social hierarchy, you were working off of an incorrect assumption that the other children had a caste system, but since it was unclear to you, you assumed that you were outside of it. Your Fe is certainly more selfish than alittlebear's, less graceful than . . . well, almost anyone's. But you have your moments. When you feel confident and have enough energy, you can shine, and your energy is directed toward other people. When you were volunteering in a homeless shelter in Vancouver, you sat down and talked to the people who came through, and because you showed them respect and interest, they opened up to you, told you their stories, you felt empathy and respect for them, and were inspired by them, and you were sure that you had brightened their days, you were surprised that they were looking at you like you were an angel. The reason you are unable to achieve this level of social finesse in everyday life is twofold: first of all, your Fe gets in the way, and secondly, your sustenance is emotional energy, something you are often lacking in due to your relative social isolation. Your lack of confidence causes you to brand yourself an 'untouchable' and feel guilty for interacting with people or asserting yourself. You do well in high-energy situations, where there are many people and you feel relatively anonymous in the crowd.

You have a desire for conversation, and often become confused and emotionally volatile if you are unable to discuss your emotions or situations. You start to feel touchy and deprived if you do not have human interaction for a while. You are a Type 2 Enneagram and it shows. You are an extrovert, who feels stir-crazy if she stays in the same place for too long. You feel the need to humanize everything. When you read books, watch TV shows, you invite the characters into your life, let them color your world. As a child you would drag around stuffed animals, now you carry around the ghosts in your head. Assuming that I am Niles Crane, you took me with you to Bavaria, when you were fired you made me sit next to you and hold your hand and tell you you were wonderful and undeserving of this (which to be fair was true) so you wouldn't cry. It seems pathetic and it kinda is but it is what you do. It's just worthless if there's no one with you. To quote How I Met Your Mother, "No matter what you do in life, it's not legendary if your friends aren't there to see it". That quote resonates with you. That's how you live your life.

You do favors for your friends unthinkingly because when it comes to the people you love, your life really does go on hold for them, or rather it goes on hold when they're not around, it's not a chore, or kindness, it's a necessity of life. Which is why you have been confused before when you have asked for a favor and a family member has accused you of selfishness. Because in your world that's really not how things work. Your currency is emotional currency. There's a facade that people care about things like careers, money, etc. but for you that is never really an object, so you forget that it is so for other people. 

You are an attention whore, and love to be seen, and have an unfortunate habit of wedging yourself into a conversation and then dominating it. You really really try not to. But it is something you have to resist. You will also start arguments because you feed off emotional energy and sometimes you want to eat junk 'food'. You wish to know how others perceive you so you will know how to perceive yourself. You are selfish, but in a Fe way. You are pretentious in a Fe way. You are Fe. Not so Fe, though, sx Fe. Which is in fact different.

There's even more evidence for Fe, but this is ultimately your Fe-ness.

tl;dr: Oswin is Fe because emotions are her currency.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

ElliCat said:


> Yeah a lot of people seem to think that "pale" is the definitive aspect of skin tone but even within different darkness levels there are varying degrees of warm/cool and how much contrast it can handle. I do not see you as blonde; I think darker is best on you.


I'm an olive toned loaf of wonder bread. People don't think it's possible, but it is. It's why blonde would wash me out. I was born with dirt colored hair.

Also thank you for the compliments.  My original video sucked, which is why I deleted it. I had my glasses off in it though. Sucks for you.


----------



## Dangerose

That was exhausting to write and probably too long to read so I'm going to go shorter, not because I agree less with these other things, but because I don't want to die.

*Fi-dominance*
Oswin, sole star of my amethyst sky, you are a Fi-dominant. Let's face it. You are weird. Group dynamics? My foot. Oswin cares about Oswin. Your are not focused on the object. You look at yourself. If you give money to the poor, is it because you feel guilty. "A good person would give money to the poor," you think, "I want to be a good person". You feel deeply. And historically you were quite stoic about it. You have values. You stick by them. They're important to you. You keep to yourself. As a child you had an independent streak. Perhaps you still do. You kinda relate to like Merida from Brave. In the sense of you want to run around Scotland free forever, not in the sense that you would have done anything she did in that movie. This argument is not convincing. You are not Fi, Oswin. Maybe in a lower level.

*Te-dominance (or auxiliariness)*
I just explained this omg I have lost all patience for this exercise bad idea bad idea
sorry


----------



## Immolate

@Oswin, I'll be honest. I didnt read that. However, you're right. Most likely Fe because you are no ISTJ.

Back to sleep.


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, I'm ExFJ.
I'll have to straighten out my understanding of the perceiving functions before I fill in the x but that's good enough for now.
Carry on now.
Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> Ok, I'm ExFJ.
> I'll have to straighten out my understanding of the perceiving functions before I fill in the x but that's good enough for now.
> Carry on now.
> Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.


LOL. First off, WHoley shit, I take it back... total Fe! I STILL think it could be aux. I disagree on ISTJ . I still vote INFJ 

But, I am telling you, I had a kool-aid smile the whole time I was reading these posts.


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## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> I'll be honest. I didnt read that


Why was that funny.


----------



## Adena

I'm not sure what happened, but I think I just realized I'm a Te dom. Wait I need to think through this.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> LOL. First off, WHoley shit, I take it back... total Fe! I STILL think it could be aux. I disagree on ISTJ . I still vote INFJ
> 
> But, I am telling you, I had a kool-aid smile the whole time I was reading these posts.


What is a Kool-Aid smile?


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## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. First off, WHoley shit, I take it back... total Fe! I STILL think it could be aux. I disagree on ISTJ . I still vote INFJ
> 
> But, I am telling you, I had a kool-aid smile the whole time I was reading these posts.
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Kool-Aid smile?
Click to expand...

*facepalm* LOL

-----------------------------------

"kool-aid smile

a large, cheesy grin on a person, similar to the one the*Kool-Aid*man has in the commercial. A Kool-Aid Smile is usually seen when a person has accomplished a major feat or task, or something extraordinarily good happens to that person.

*Ryan walked out of her house with a big ass Kool-Aid smile on his face.* "


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> I haven't answered because I don't trust myself to gauge you accurately anymore. =P
> 
> Drudging up the Tudors conversation again...
> 
> THIS is the definitive Anne Boleyn, and, I think, semi-accurate to her feisty character.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The definitive Katharine, of course, is on _The Tudors_. That's also the most accurate / authentic / sympathetic representation of her daughter Mary.
> 
> Out of all the Elizabeths ... fine as they are, I think Helen Mirren's comes the closest to capturing her. (Though I have a fondness for Cate Blanchett's, as well.)
> 
> On a different note, is Emma Watson an ISTJ or an ISFJ? I kind of think Fe because she's pretty charming overall, but I'm not great at spotting it in celebrities at times, since many of them put on warmth for the camera. (Or is she something else entirely? I get a sensor vibe from her. @hoopla? I know she used to be more blunt as a child but... uh, who wasn't?)


...That laugh.

She's probably an ESFJ. Especially wanting to understand and figure out why people are affected by Harry Potter, and enjoying a warm, outgoing emotional atmosphere. I don't care if she hides in the bathroom in public. Extroverts like alone time too. It could also just be nerves. Maybe she is. I wouldn't rule out Te, but there's no way the Fi is aux if that is the case. I'd have to watch more interviews.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Also... I was channel surfing maybe a week ago?

Ellen described herself as an introvert.

What in the world.

Are my closeted Fe dom fears understandable now.


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> Also... I was channel surfing maybe a week ago?
> 
> Ellen described herself as an introvert.
> 
> What in the world.
> 
> Are my closeted Fe dom fears understandable now.


See that is my problem. I CAN be high energy, when with/around others. In fact i usually am when socializing. Its like an automatic switch. But it DRAINS me. Like I said before... just get me home! I wanna read a book or flip on a movie/show etc. Get lost in my head. I can seriously sit with a cup of tea/coffee and space out for EVER. Just... THINKING. I kid you not, just yesterday, I was sitting on our lounge chair spacing out the windows/back door for a good 20 mins. My husband was out side of the door (in the backyard) smoking and on the phone. I guess he was watching me living in my fantasy world. It took a good minute before I snapped out of it, and realized he was waving to me with the tree branch that was hanging, in his hand. Like literally making the tree wave to me, since I had been spacing out at it for the longest time lol. Such a butt


----------



## Dangerose

Argument for Ni:
Symbolism is my life. I . . . hm, like, for some time over the last few years there's been a similar theme in my dreams: I'm given a basket of kittens, or a bunch of things, to take care of, but they get lost, and I end up finding some but not all. But the other night, I had a dream that I was given a bunch of animal things and . . . they got lost, and I found all of them. And I woke up and I was like, "Oh! This means that I have gotten things sorted out. Everything is in place. Things were out of place, and therefore bad, now things are in place...good! I'm on solid foundation now." It was very obvious that this is what that dream meant. Which...I know dreams have deep meanings and most people can interpret them...but...yeah.

When I was writing this comment, I was feeling a little Ni (but @hoopla interpreted it as obvious Si so I really don't know) because I was struggling to be objective describing the Trinity, saying what the Trinity is according to the Church, and then explain my subjective thought, but I kept going subjective and saying what the Trinity means _for me (I will bold the subjective parts):_


> Holy Trinity = God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are three separate entities (Jesus is not the Holy Spirit) but they are each God -- one God. They are consubstantial, Like a shamrock, the three leaves are separate parts but it is one plant. *I personally think it's a very similar concept to Hindu gods having different avatars but being essentially the same gods (and actually I do believe in my Eastern Religions class the teacher or book mentioned that some Hindus consider themselves monotheistic because all their gods are in fact variations on one central force?* But I have no idea how correct or common that view is but I rather like that idea but tangent. Anyways, I'm not sure if theologians would consider it the same thing, probably not . . . but anyways, my point was that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is that the Three are One and the One is Three, and that it is a concept that humans cannot fully understand.* (which incidentally fits in with my personal belief, not representative of the beliefs of most Christians or Catholics) that God is the force which resolves/allows for paradoxes, that paradox is holy in a sense. Which is why I like to think of the TARDIS in Doctor Who as almost a symbol for God, because it is 'big and little at the same time, brand new and ancient, and the bluest blue ever' but . . . again, tangent). So in some way that concept could be said to go against mathematical principles such as 3=/=1 but I would consider it a transcendence of those rules, not a defiance. Because it points at a world where mathematics is...transcended by higher principles, but not replaced, it still exists and contains value and truth, there is just something higher.* Which is different from evidence-based things, which generally are and must be replaced when new evidence is found. Sorry, I don't think I'm explaining myself well...do I make sense?


I mean, all that is part of my world-outlook and it's difficult to explain but it's all my . . .Truth, Paradox, I have these capital-letter concepts in my mind that shape how I see everything, I don't see how they could be Si.

I also thought this thing I wrote was somewhat Ni. First of all, because I had these whole big idea of paring down the prose just to essentials (turns out this revolutionary new concept had a name already: poetry) and secondly because . . . I was trying to avoid details, not to tell anything that didn't matter for the story, for the parts of the story I considered important, and I was trying to commit to what my idea of good writing was. The plotline was...unexplainable. Prostitute loves mandarin, weird silk-worm creature loves prostitute, gives her some orchids, promises to make her queen of another land, orchids grant wishes or something and she ends up becoming a metaphorical/literal spider, puts mandarin in her web, he is executed for killing her, and she joins silkworm-creature in his land, but she is now utterly different? But it's very meaningful _to me_...just, it honestly wouldn't be to anyone else.

And my approach to writing generally was very Ni. In that...I wanted to conquer literature or something. But then I decided...I wasn't going to do it anymore. Which was the right decision. I might go back to it again but for the time being, I am out of ideas, I don't think I can contribute anything, it doesn't belong in my life now. Which was a big relief.


* *





I.

There is a girl who lives by a garden. The nights are long where she is. A quiet girl, with long hair that she combs by the moonlight. Which glistens off the stones in the courtyard, which glistens off the comb in her hand. The men come to and from her room each night. She prepares for them. Someone is watching her.

Yu Hua, are you coming to the feast?
Why are they always bothering me?
I am coming. Don’t wait for me.
Don’t forget to shut the door.
When have I forgotten? But will he come tonight?

How she weaves her patterns by day, by evening. Every thread is a strand of thought. How her fingers strum them, how they build the patterns. Constant folding and unfolding of life. She is thinking of someone. The moon waxes as her feelings grow. Wanes as they fade from view. The changing colors are the changing tides. Moonlight is her being and the sea is her heart.

The door, the door! I had not forgotten.
Perhaps he has forgotten me.
He is kept too busy with the Emperor. Yu Hua!
Is he coming? I am here. 

Many rooms line the courtyard. There is a garden there. She is serious. Her face does not change as she walks. People chatter like birds. There is no difference. Once she had a bird. But she let it go. She took it into the forest and it flew up to the sky. Away from her outstretched arms. It did not feel sad. It did not remember her afterwards. Since then she knew the difference between people and birds. But it was very sad to think about.

They are people to me, and I am their bird.
Do they think they know me? Yu Hua, do not be sad.
I was not sad, I was thinking of birds.
Do you expect to see the mandarin tonight?
What mandarin? Now they think I am boasting.
Boastful Yu Hua, the whore of many mandarins.
That is who they see. 

The hall is lively. Lai Di was bought by a bureaucrat. She is singing a song of farewell. A voice that warbles with talent. Yu Hua must come dance with the others. Here is a beautiful girl who seems too proud to dance. She is not water; she is stone. Her eyes are searching through the crowd. She has no talent. Not for dance and not for song. Not for poetry. She can only weave. Who will buy her?

Lai Di, my congratulations.
It is his voice; how did I fail to see him?
You are a woman of great accomplishment.
She only knows too well how to smile.
Now you can afford to flirt, I see.
I am happy for you.
But I am not!

Yu Hua stares at him until he catches her eye. He smiles, and steps toward her. He is a mandarin, and the color of his robe distinguishes him. All around the men are drunk and they are shouting back and forth. The girls are laughing loudly.

So you are here, my artless beauty?
I am always here. 
Your features are so severe. What do you think of?
One name only. Tell him: this and that.
Something that will make him smile.
I will come when the party dies.
I will be waiting.

She leaves the crowd and goes back to her room. It is empty. The other girls are still at play. She sets her loom beside the lattice-window. She bought it with her virgin-price. That was many years ago. She sells the fabrics to a merchant. She keeps the money under her bed.
Will he come tonight?
How she makes her back straight against the wall, how her heart fills the room! Here is a palace of moonlight. The queen keeps her eyes fixed on the door. One thought guides her. One star burns in the centre of her brow. Her hands that strum the thread are shaking. The shadows cross her body. Only one beam of light shows her face.

Will he see me tonight?
If he sees me, I can give him my soul.
Once he sees me I will not be unseen.
Will he make conversation? 
You have a visitor. You must keep still, your eyes
must not show them your soul. That is for him.
Let him in. Will he see me tonight?

A man enters. It is the man she had spoken to, the man who had promised to come. His robes slide off his shoulders as he looks at the girl. She looks on him steadily; he does not see her. He does not make conversation. He undresses her. Her body is fair. His body is strong. She trembles under his touch.

He will not see me. He did not see my weaving.
The changing moon –it is for you! 
Let me wrap you in my moonlight.

In the courtyard the evening rustles. A warm breeze blows and shakes the leaves on the trees. Someone is looking through the lattice-window. He watches strong hands weave through black hair. His eyes hold the burning sun. He is crying.




On the other hand, other things I've written turn out crazy-Si. Skipping sections to hit the really Si bits.


> Now it is my lot to wander the earth and track the changing moods of men and nations. I do not interfere, not usually – I have done my share of that, and it is strange and sad to speak with a world which is not yours anymore. The earth remembers me, and the wind and I have grown well acquainted with each other . . . . In our day, we thought that the bards would sing of us for generations to come, but we did not believe it. But in fact Arthur now occupies a higher throne than he ever did when he was alive. The fragments of all our lives have been put together to form legend. Camelot has become the nursery of Britain: the glorious past that never was and always will be. But in my time it was a real place and not far from ordinary: a castle with blue flowers on the walls and mud on the floors in the hallways. Today the castle is gone, and all those familiar places have changed their faces. . . . . But not everything we lost will ever return. There are some things I will only see again in my memory, and it is fitting that I record them here. Today they say that the past is not as glorious as we imagine it, but I will tell you that they are wrong. My childhood is as far-away as any could hope to be, and it was as idyllic as the fiercest romantic could wish. I was born on a small rocky island (not far from shore) with a castle on it that was called Tintagel. It was a square fortress, and the stones were almost black because they were old and there had been fires in the past. . . . . Across the way, over the water, was a convent that was larger and prettier than the castle, and even had a labyrinth of white flowers that I used to run through with my sisters in the summer. But, except for the labyrinth, I didn’t like the convent, and used to tell it stories about how grand Tintagel had been in the old days, how the entire island had been a castle and what it saw now was just the chimney, and how there was a sleeping dragon chained down deep below the water, who would wake up if anyone dared to challenge the ancient throne. I believed the story, though I had made it up myself, and it thrilled my bones to think of it.





> When the moon was very high and the dark field shone with an eerie light, then I could step through the stronger barriers in the path of time, and see like shadows, beyond my field of vision, figures moving along this field. It was difficult to grasp the shape of the figures, but impossible to ignore the thoughts of their hearts charging through me. I could catch ancient figures more readily than more recent ones. This had been a battlefield before it had been a graveyard, and sometimes I could almost smell the blood that had filled so many throats and suffocated hundreds of warriors. I felt their scramble to do something worthy, some great feat of arms that would immortalize their last minutes, and the strange . . .





> “Dear child, I shouldn’t have woken you. What have you been dreaming of?” “Death,” he said. “That won’t do,” I said. “I shall tell you a story and that is what you shall dream of. When you were alive, was there a castle on that little island there?” “We shouldn’t have fought if there hadn’t been a castle,” he said feverishly. “You shall have the castle,” I said. “Not forever . . . the castle is mine, you see. But for one green point in time, which is all you need. Look – the moon sets over it by night, and in the morning there is dew on the grass, which is green, and there are little flowers, white and purple, very close to the ground. And sometimes an ant or a ladybug might climb across your hand, if you leave it in the same place for long enough. There is a fire in your room and a view to the sea. A warm bed, and all the things you like; all the warm things that know the shape of your fingers, you understand.” I closed my eyes and touched the yellow bones that had been the boy’s hand. “The broken lute, the flute your brother made from a twig, the little doll your sister always took around, everything. The old water-jug. And your mother and your father and your brothers and your sister are in the other rooms, and you can go down and talk to them whenever you like. You never quarrel for more than half an hour, and then it’s only about silly things. Sometimes it gets chilly in the stairways, so you must walk quickly or bring something to keep warm. There are three tapestries, and it’s very hard to see the pictures unless you bring a candle. The candles are kept in the dining hall. Every morning you meet a flaxen-haired maiden on the island. She is very pretty and sweet and she loves you, and you love her, but you never quite say anything about it. You spend the best part of the day together. Sometimes you sing songs together or braid her hair or just sit by each other and look up at the sky, which is such a lovely blue, you know. And then you go inside and everyone is there, for dinner, and there’s a grand fire and so much food you could eat to bursting if you wanted to. And at night you go up to your little room, and light the fire or not, and look up at the ceiling, which is dark stone and with rough wooden beams below, and you go to sleep.”


Nostalgia, that 'one green point in time' concept with the 'old familiar things', the archetypes, the . . . we've talked about it before enough to get an idea of what it means, this all says Si to me. But I'm not sure.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> See that is my problem. I CAN be high energy, when with/around others. In fact i usually am when socializing. Its like an automatic switch. But it DRAINS me. Like I said before... just get me home! I wanna read a book or flip on a movie/show etc. Get lost in my head. I can seriously sit with a cup of tea/coffee and space out for EVER. Just... THINKING. I kid you not, just yesterday, I was sitting on our lounge chair spacing out the windows/back door for a good 20 mins. My husband was out side of the door (in the backyard) smoking and on the phone. I guess he was watching me living in my fantasy world. It took a good minute before I snapped out of it, and realized he was waving to me with the tree branch that was hanging, in his hand. Like literally making the tree wave to me, since I had been spacing out at it for the longest time lol. Such a butt


Is the high energy natural, or sustained effort?

Of course extroverts become drained in certain situations. It's like saying an introvert would never want to have friends, join a club, go to a party, or... talk.

My mother is one of the most extroverted people I know. She also gets drained after hanging out with people... but alone for too long, and she needs someone to talk to. She is, at times, not outgoing. She once had a panic attack in her car after being in church... because all the people were looking at her, and staring at her. She overthinks how to behave in a social situation, and gets easily irritated over what I would consider minor things. I'd be burned out too. Shyness blurs it a bit for her... but she's really not an introvert; at least not imo.

You have to think of your default mode. Being alone or engaging. Or just determine your dom function.


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Also... I was channel surfing maybe a week ago?
> 
> Ellen described herself as an introvert.
> 
> What in the world.
> 
> Are my closeted Fe dom fears understandable now.


What do you mean? It's Ellen. Obvious INTP is obvious.
I want to know the proper types of all the talk show hosts so that I can properly do comparisons when watching interviews. What do we all think?
Ellen: ENFJ or ESFJ?
Jimmy Fallon: ESTP or ENFJ imo
Jimmy Kimmel: No clue honestly
Conan: Same


----------



## Persephone Soul

Ni - INFJ.


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> I'm not sure what happened, but I think I just realized I'm a Te dom. Wait I need to think through this.


Well, that's certainly odd. Why do you think so? :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Ni - INFJ.


Oh god, we have another one joining the mystical bandwagon. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

But @hoopla unless you feel like an extrovert I wouldn't doubt ISFJ. I think your Ti is higher than your Ne at any rate and . . . you know how with Ellen everything is clicky? With you it is not, there is a layer of gauze between you and the world. I don't think you're an extrovert.


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Ni - INFJ.


I can't tell if this is about me, hoopla, or you.
Also @Barakiel I want to be able to consider NFJ types without being accused of mystical special snowflakeyness? Like, INFJ is literally just one of the 16 types, I wish there wasn't this huge mystique around it that made it seem self-inflated to consider it for yourself or something. :/


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> See that is my problem. I CAN be high energy, when with/around others. In fact i usually am when socializing. Its like an automatic switch. But it DRAINS me. Like I said before... just get me home! I wanna read a book or flip on a movie/show etc. Get lost in my head. I can seriously sit with a cup of tea/coffee and space out for EVER. Just... THINKING. I kid you not, just yesterday, I was sitting on our lounge chair spacing out the windows/back door for a good 20 mins. My husband was out side of the door (in the backyard) smoking and on the phone. I guess he was watching me living in my fantasy world. It took a good minute before I snapped out of it, and realized he was waving to me with the tree branch that was hanging, in his hand. Like literally making the tree wave to me, since I had been spacing out at it for the longest time lol. Such a butt
> 
> 
> 
> Is the high energy natural, or sustained effort?
> 
> Of course extroverts become drained in certain situations. It's like saying an introvert would never want to have friends, join a club, go to a party, or... talk.
> 
> My mother is one of the most extroverted people I know. She also gets drained after hanging out with people... but alone for too long, and she needs someone to talk to. She is, at times, not outgoing. She once had a panic attack in her car after being in church... because all the people were looking at her, and staring at her. She overthinks how to behave in a social situation, and gets easily irritated over what I would consider minor things. I'd be burned out too. Shyness blurs it a bit for her... but she's really not an introvert; at least not imo.
> 
> You have to think of your default mode. Being alone or engaging. Or just determine your dom function.
Click to expand...

If we are speaking of what is natural, being an introvert is natural. Do I need communication? Yes, but I naturally have that with my kids and husband every single day. I don't do socializing. I just, ehhh. I will, but I don't want to. Then when I am out, it's like a mask or something. Hard to explain, but I become really outgoing. Couple hours in, I am literally fantasizing about 'home sweet home'.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ni - INFJ.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god, we have another one joining the mystical bandwagon.
Click to expand...

Dude. Just because they're 'rare' doesn't mean we should all shun it as a possibility. If thats the case, then no wonder its so rare! Too many people scared to touch it. I really do think she is an INFJ. Its okay for everyone to be ENFJ, but the minute we deem someone I instead of E in the NFJ spectrum, *gasp*. 

Blah blah  lol


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I can't tell if this is about me, hoopla, or you.
> Also @Barakiel I want to be able to consider NFJ types without being accused of mystical special snowflakeyness? Like, INFJ is literally just one of the 16 types, I wish there wasn't this huge mystique around it that made it seem self-inflated to consider it for yourself or something. :/


Oh no, don't mind me, it's just a twitch reaction for me. :wink: I'm not accusing you of that, and anyway, that's more an Fi thing, to think you're special and snowflakey. INFJs are the more skeptical and inwardly focused of @alittlebear. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Dude. Just because they're 'rare' doesn't mean we should all shun it as a possibility. If that were a case, than no wonder its so rare! Too many people scared to touch it. I really do think she is an INFJ. Its okay for everyone to be ENFJ, but the minute we deem someone I instead of E, *gasp*.
> 
> Blah blah


It's not because they're rare, but the INFJ label carries a sort of stipulation to it, and actually, I really don't like NFJs, sorry @alittlebear. :wink: Still, the fact that you're arguing for INFJ and she isn't does hold some weight, I'll admit. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

I'm here for this.

Except it's still dark out and I'm half-asleep. Patience.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm wondering... where's @alittlebear?


Perhaps the sum of her martyrship proved to be too much for her. :wink:


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> "Why" questions! ahhh lol. They make my head spin, although I enjoy giving them and i know they are necessary.
> 
> okay...
> 
> So hmmm... I honestly feel like if others jump on board and the other person feels attacked in anyway, it will cut off my access to information. Keep your enemies close I guess? Let me think of an example..
> *This is relateable for me, but maybe with more of a focus on making sure I get to have all information, can see all points of view etc so I can give a well rounded response in future.
> *
> Okay, so let's say (COMPLETELY hypothetical), my sister's husband was rumored to be cheating on her. While everyone is flipping their shit on him, I am remaining cool as a cucumber trying to coerce him to come with me privately. On the inside I want to rip him to shreds, but on the outside I am acting non-judgmental/confrontational to drain him for all the information I can get from him. The less attacked he feels the more comfortable, the more info will be revealed. Then, once the full story is out, I process and if it is as bad at is was made out to be, WHoley shit, watch the f*** out. I may even show my right hook (yes, I have done this..not proud). If I see that there is more to the story, and it isn't what it's made out to be, then I will try and translate to clear up confusion to my sister.
> *This would make me flip because I'm very defensive of family. So I'd probably have to cool off a lot before confronting him about it (I try to never deal with issues when angry/upset/confused - I like to think about it for a while, work out what bothers me and why and then deal with the other person.
> I'd be likely to talk to people around the couple before the couple themselves then talk to the couple individually and together and then retreat, think on things, ask more questions to catch the guy out if he was cheating etc.
> If he was I'd probably hurt him somehow because I hate people who cheat, plus it's on someone I care about.
> *
> Same with, for instance my own husband. When there have been certain things that may have looked questionable, inside I freak out, but outwardly, I stay calm and try and ask questions. To build the whole story. Once the story is built, then I will react accordingly. Once again, if i have all the pieces and it adds up to a "no bueno" moment, I can flip my shit. But I usually hold it in until I piece it all together.
> *With that I'd examine everything going on in our lives, assess what had changed and how and why, then confront him directly (if awkwardly). Id probably ask if everything was okay etc before getting to the point, to give him the chance to admit to things before I ask it myself (I like to let people explain themselves fully before judging them).
> If he had cheated I'd be gone, no compromises. I dont deal with liars or cheaters. The thing is, I'd still want to end it on good terms, because why have a huge drama when you can go "well, youre a bit of a dick, but if Im no longer involved then we can still be civil".
> *
> Same with my kids. If I think they did something, I ask questions to make sure I punish them accordingly. I will almost make friends with them, so they feel comfortable to tell me the truth.
> *Kids are weird for me, I have no idea what to do if theyre bad - goes to show what a terrible parent I'd make!** I guess I'd try and explain what they did was wrong, why it was wrong and ask them why they thought it was okay to do etc so I showed I was trying to understand.*
> 
> I hardly ever just 'react'. When I do, it is massive, and then I calm down. Kind of volcanic. But this is on things that have directly gone against my morals in a mischievous way. Or something that has interfered with my family. Like I don't need facts then, I just go in full protection-mode. Rumors and hear-say, I NEED further information. When things happen in front of my own eyes, I am more likely to react, although it still depends.
> *I can be very reactive, but mostly internally. I dont generally get angry or really upset and if I do its for a good reason. It tends to build like a spring being coiled and then lashes out very aggressively. I'll feel myself getting more wound up as whatever bothers me continues, but I'll spend so long trying to work out why it bothers me I wont act and deal with the problem.
> *
> I also rely on my Si I think. I am alert and aware to abnormal behavior. VERY.
> *I could see that as Se - I notice changes in people/things very easily.
> *
> EDIT: I just remember doing this all through school. My whole life really. It's like, I feel like if they feel attacked or judged by me, then I will never get inside their head. I won't get the truth of the matter. I want to get to the core.
> 
> Other people jumping in, ruins that for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply! :ghost3:
> 
> Hm, so you mentioned wanting the full picture a lot of the time. I know that's almost the opposite of my ISFP (?) friend, who jumps to conclusions based on very little evidence (maybe unhealthy Ni?) plus you want a variety of sources, which might be some Ne coming out under stress? I'm still having some trouble with the Fe-Ti vs Fi-Te thing though. @_tine_ @_alittlebear_ and @_Greyhart_ do you have any good descriptions of how Ti-Fe might be used in these situations?
Click to expand...

Hopefully that helps? I replied in bold.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Perhaps the sum of her martyrship proved to be too much for her. :wink:


I see a tiny bear taking a nap in a shaded area with lots of trees. Don't say such things :cheers2:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@SugarPlum I may be wrong after all. 

If it helps, not all of it stems from the fact I perceive you to be a strong Fe.

Some of it is just your energy. You are so fiery and intense. Mostly bubbly and easygoing, but those bubbles burst.

I found it amusing you believe we have similar energy. You come across as... more fiery than I see myself.

Sure I'm passionate. But it gets bad when you are 11 and a friend says horrible things about gay people... and you honestly can't get words out of your mouth.

Or you want to stand up for your friend whom everyone is bullying but... you can't. Or you even go along with it secretly because... you fail to defend.

Or everyone says extremely nasty, sexist things... and you are wondering how to get the words out, and you just can't. The only justice that can be served is talking to the teacher about it. That's what I do. I find someone whom can help... or I don't say anything. I wondered if anxiety was hindering how I naturally act but I dig up the archives and before my social anxiety was... a nasty thing that's sort of how I always was.

You strike me as the type who is mostly unassuming unless you dislike what is up in the air... and you make that shit known. Bold, even.

So I found that observation interesting.

I also knew a girl... who rarely spoke actually. She was fine observing. She considered herself an extrovert. So did I. She was almost exclusively around people and didn't like being alone. 

I vs E is one of those concepts that has been so blurred due to pop psychology that the genuine meaning is nuanced and almost lost.

So maybe you're just a fiery, feisty introvert.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> And here problem arises - I could but I still would have to ask money from parents and mother is categorically opposed to buying second-hand mirror because they bring bad lack. Whatever. I'll get small mirror from my parents' flat.
> 
> No, I must have my "I'm still not out of my Green Day stage" smudgy eyeliner on.
> 
> You mean hypothetical "This person close to me might've done something bad"? For sister's husband - he is rumored after all, people talk. If it's true they'll either settle it or diverse in which case I'll be there for my hypothetical sister. I'd probably avoid getting myself into it.
> 
> If I suspected my spouse of cheating I'd ask them head on. If I caught onto something that looked suspicious I'd keep talking until they either stumble or I decide they are saying truth. Same with hypothetical children. Or anything. I talk, basically. I need air to be cleared ASAP so I can deal with either fall out or just relax.


I did not know secondhand mirrors could bring bad luck.... Do you have an Ikea near you? Their mirrors are cheap.

Hm, your approach sounds very similar to my own. @SugarPlum did that help at all?



tine said:


> Hopefully that helps? I replied in bold.


Yes! Thank you for your reply :ghost3: @SugarPlum what did you think?


For me personally, I wouldn't want to get involved with something that's personal for someone else - unless they directly come to me and ask for advice, in which case I would offer my opinion (and clarify over and over that it's just my opinion so they don't have to do it - because people seem to take my advice as gospel sometimes...). 
Although, if it was family, I'd probably have to really restrain myself from finding the person who was potentially cheating and demanding an answer from them...

If it was my partner, I would just ask them and explain why I was asking. Depending on how realistic I thought the possibility was, I might be more or less hostile in how I asked. If I'd heard from someone else about it, I would say who had said about it.

With kids, I would explain to them what they did that was wrong and why.



ElliCat said:


> I know I'm not, and I think Laurie discussed things quite a bit before officially making the change, so I don't doubt it there either. I half don't care, and half feel a bit miffed at the implication that either my knowledge is lacking or I'm falling victim to snowflakery.
> 
> And meanwhile I'm just like


I think INFP definitely makes sense for you - you're one of the few people who I really see as 100% INFP (like an INTJ on the INTJ boards who was so INTJ, unlike all of the people trying really hard to be one).

INFP is just the one that works for me, because it felt like... it didn't work for ages (that makes very little sense, but...). I kind of just flowed through INFJ (from the first test I took) to INTP (because logic, obviously) to INTJ (because no Fe + being perceived as xNTJ by friends as, because I was gradually getting over social anxiety/agoraphobia/anxiety stuff, I became less passive and got more of a proactive approach going). I was sort of thinking about my type, but it was more interesting to look at other types - especially the types of my friends, because they're so different. It's like I love looking at really old history, but not modern history - modern history is familiar, whereas ancient history is completely different.

Also that kitten picture is so cute :lovekitty:


----------



## owlet

Also, could someone explain how social introversion/extroversion works with the MBTI cognitive function theory of i.e. Ti vs Te, Si vs Se etc.? I don't get it.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Also, could someone explain how social introversion/extroversion works with the MBTI cognitive function theory of i.e. Ti vs Te, Si vs Se etc.? I don't get it.


I think it's probably separate and in the big 5 or something?


----------



## Immolate

I don't get it either, laurie17. Hmm.


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> I think it's probably separate and in the big 5 or something?


Maybe correlational? Like pirates and global warming?



shinynotshiny said:


> I don't get it either, laurie17. Hmm.


:ghost: I'm so confused. I always thought of them as almost entirely unrelated concepts with some very minor overlap...


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Maybe correlational? Like pirates and global warming?
> 
> 
> 
> :ghost: I'm so confused. I always thought of them as almost entirely unrelated concepts with some very minor overlap...


Little thing on the spelling:

_Extrovert (term). Psychology. a person characterized by *extroversion*; a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment (opposed to introvert ). Psychology. to direct (the mind, one's interest, etc.) outward or to things outside the self._

So from that Id say it was based on a focus rather than an energy thing. Maybe extravert is the energy side and so *wouldnt* come into mbti etc?


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> Little thing on the spelling:
> 
> _Extrovert (term). Psychology. a person characterized by *extroversion*; a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment (opposed to introvert ). Psychology. to direct (the mind, one's interest, etc.) outward or to things outside the self._
> 
> So from that Id say it was based on a focus rather than an energy thing. Maybe extravert is the energy side and so *wouldnt* come into mbti etc?


Oh, that makes more sense, with the psychology part. Thanks! :ghost3:

I found that Jung had written this:


> *Extra*version [sic] is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in…the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances… The psychic life of this type of person is enacted, as it were, outside himself, in the environment.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Oh, that makes more sense, with the psychology part. Thanks! :ghost3:
> 
> I found that Jung had written this:


So basically Extrovert is not really the same as the typical extravert and so if we discuss mbti Exxx types theyre extroverts and so it's about focus and not energy!


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> So basically Extrovert is not really the same as the typical extravert and so if we discuss mbti Exxx types theyre extroverts and so it's about focus and not energy!


I'm glad we've sorted this out! So, you can be a withdrawn extrovert - or not a people-person, yet still be extroverted. Right?


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> I'm glad we've sorted this out! So, you can be a withdrawn extrovert - or not a people-person, yet still be extroverted. Right?


You dont even need to be withdrawn. As an exTROvert, you would focus on the external world but could still be introverted energy-wise (therefore not being an exTRAvert). But in mbti terms you'd be an Exxx type.


----------



## Barakiel

Actually, I'm curious, how would you say Si and Ne interact in the types of SJ and NP? @angelcat, @Greyhart, @ElliCat, @fair phantom, this is for you. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> ...That laugh.
> 
> She's probably an ESFJ. Especially wanting to understand and figure out why people are affected by Harry Potter, and enjoying a warm, outgoing emotional atmosphere. I don't care if she hides in the bathroom in public. Extroverts like alone time too. It could also just be nerves. Maybe she is. I wouldn't rule out Te, but there's no way the Fi is aux if that is the case. I'd have to watch more interviews.


I think she's a little nervous doing interviews, so she overdoes it a bit -- she starts laughing out of nerves. That isn't an argument for type, it's just an observation. Heh. I DO know that she's WAY better at engaging than, say, Carey Mulligan, who is an IXFJ. It's like ... dead air just sits around Carey, and is sucked into a black hole. I've seen interviews with her so awkward (because she can't think of anything to say, and the interviewer is trying to keep her going) that are just painful. No dead air with Emma. So yeah, ESFJ is probably more accurate.

(I can relate to the wanting to understand everyone thing. So much. And yet, I went out and about yesterday and was all chatty and sweet and enthusiastic and ... now I feel, the next morning with low blood sugar, like I'm dead. But I can't figure out if that's my aux-Fe being drained to the point of no return, or my blood sugar problems kicking in.)



hoopla said:


> Also... I was channel surfing maybe a week ago?
> 
> Ellen described herself as an introvert.
> 
> What in the world.
> 
> Are my closeted Fe dom fears understandable now.


ELLEN? That ball of Fe? NOOOO.



hoopla said:


> I was best friends with a girl who wanted to hang out quite often. My thoughts towards her were... dark. I thought I was going mad. So I lied and said I couldn't hang out. And after that I learned we needed a bit more distance between the two of us. Every prior thought... ceased.


Another hint toward me being an ambiverted Fe-dom -- the more time I spend with my friends, usually, the more I like them. I was happiest when I had a daily correspondence with an ESFP. When my ISFJ friend doesn't write me for weeks, I get mad at her and feel like I'm drifting away from her emotionally. BUT... I'm not actually WITH people when we're emailing, so is there still an introverted barrier around me?

I do admit, I spend most of my time in my head. So... that's pretty much INTROVERT. 

But wait, we're not discussing me. LOL



Barakiel said:


> Actually, I'm curious, how would you say Si and Ne interact in the types of SJ and NP? @angelcat, @Greyhart, @ElliCat, @fair phantom, this is for you. :laughing:


Si/Ne -- I have a ton of ideas for this story. So many I don't know which to choose. I'll pick one and start writing, but ... oh, there's an idea for a different book. No, I need to finish this one first. I'll write that one down for later.

Ne/Si -- I have a ton of ideas for stories. I'll make them all up in my head and live them out simultaneously. I'll start writing one and -- oh, there's a better idea. Forget this story, let's work on that one! Ooh, or that one! I'll do them all, five words at a time. Except I got bored. I don't want to write this stuff down. I'm on to other things now.

What kills me -- my NFP is a genius of a writer, who never writes, because she gets distracted all the time, and doesn't see the point in writing down her stories. I meanwhile chase ideas for all they are worth and force them to do my will. Once she figures out where her story is going, she gets bored. Once I figure it out, I am super-charged to finish it.

/comments at 5:55am.

You want to know where @alittlebear is? Probably asleep. Wish I still was. My stupid body clock gets me up at 5-something every day, and then I can't go back to sleep.


----------



## Adena

Is it possible to be a Fe-ish Te dom? Like, behaviorally reminding people of ExFJs but cognitively being an ExTJ?


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> Is it possible to be a Fe-ish Te dom? Like, behaviorally reminding people of ExFJs but cognitively being an ExTJ?


Hermione fits that bill, really. :wink: Perhaps your 2 Enneagram wing explains the Fe-ness? :happy:


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> Hermione fits that bill, really. :wink: Perhaps your 2 Enneagram wing explains the Fe-ness? :happy:


Perhaps... Not sure. Now I kinda want to do a research on Hermione's MBTI and Enneagram lol


----------



## 68097

Gray Romantic said:


> Is it possible to be a Fe-ish Te dom? Like, behaviorally reminding people of ExFJs but cognitively being an ExTJ?


Female Te's tend to come across differently from male Te's. They are often softened by social grooming to some extent.

Or as my female INTJ friend puts it: I realized fairly early on I can't accomplish what I want if people don't like me, so I learned not to be as blunt and offensive in order to get things done. 

Basically, high Te has little patience for high Fe. Fe is too gushy, too emotionally driven, not logical enough. High Te will keep a topic on topic if it can, it has no time for ruminating abstract nonsense ("what does this concept really MEAN???" -- whereas Te will say, "Does that matter?"), and cares mostly about efficiency. This is exacerbated in Te-doms. Everything must have a purpose, and a schedule, and get done. Slackers are looked down on for their laziness. Hermione is a classic example.


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> Do you know why it's easier for you to put the idea out as a drawing? I always found it much easier to write things out rather than draw them... I guess because I usually have very long and big ideas and I'm not a very fast sketcher, so I would have to spend days on one idea, rather than with writing where each day sets a new angle for the idea...


Because there are no words involved. Words i.e. anger dont explain the feeling, they simply state it. You can show anger easier in an image i.e. (being cliche) flames, sharp teeth etc. whereas just saying 'angry' isn't going to show it. You can use words to show i.e. "anger boiled..." but to me the image is easier to portray the feeling I want.


----------



## Darkbloom

@hoopla you seem very ISFJ to me!(much more than in posts,posts make you look more T-ish)


----------



## Immolate

Guys, I'm ISFJ.


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> Guys, I'm ISFJ.


----------



## Immolate

Bugs said:


>


You don't think so? Serious question.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> You don't think so? Serious question.


Better question, why do *you* think so? :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Better question, why do *you* think so? :happy:


I don't.

But.

How about socionics ISFJ (which would be ISFp, SEI)?


----------



## 68097

@Oswin and anyone else considering Te:

Regarding my earlier quote from my Te friend... a desire for and respect of credibility is something I've noticed in all the Te users I know, including the low-order Te users. 

I used to debate historical periods and characters alongside an ESFP friend. I noticed that while I would go in armed with facts and vague details, she would march in there armed with literal quotes from source-able texts, only from respected historians -- IE, David Starkey with his litany of degrees (degree = credible) instead of Alison Weir, who has no doctorate of history. If I provided her with ammo from a history book, she wanted the exact quote, the page number, the edition number, and the footnote reference on where that historian gathered that information from. (Which of course I hadn't bothered to take note of, haha.)

I've seen this in my ENFP friend as well. She'll pick up a historical volume, flip it over, read the back, and if it's not written by anyone with a degree in that specific period or overall history, and there isn't a huge source reference manual in the back, she automatically discredits it as a reliable source. 

Whereas I reason that you can be knowledgeable without a degree in history, that degree doesn't automatically mean you're an expert, and so on. But, things like that really seem to matter to Te, wherever it falls in the stack.

OH REALLY? WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE THEN?? 

Instead of, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT?

I think it might align with Ti's ability to recognize and respect independent thought and theory, colliding with Te's more pragmatic objectivity of PROVE IT.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't.
> 
> But.
> 
> How about socionics ISFJ (which would be ISFp, SEI)?


Then say ISFP, makes it easier for all of us. :wink: And in that case, I ask again, why do you think so?


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Then say ISFP, makes it easier for all of us. :wink: And in that case, I ask again, why do you think so?


No, socionics ISFp is MBTI ISFJ. So we're talking ISFJ.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> No, socionics ISFp is MBTI ISFJ. So we're talking ISFJ.


Oh, wow, I actually misread it that badly. That was really stupid of me, sorry.










But again, you don't seem Fe to me, and although Si is possible, it's unlikely.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh, wow, I actually misread it that badly. That was really stupid of me, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But again, you don't seem Fe to me, and although Si is possible, it's unlikely.


GUYS I DON'T HAVE TE 

what is credibility

reliable sources

empiricism

efficiency

what


----------



## Dangerose

@Bugs, thank you, and really a good point. I think you're right. @angelcat, yeah, I think the TJ idea was a poor one of mine. Thank you though -- Te is difficult to understand. for me at least. Probably a sign I don't use it. @shinynotshiny can you tell more? 
I am also wondering about @alittlebear.


----------



## Immolate

@_Oswin_ My life is a lie. As for @_alittlebear_... I wonder if I upset her the other day? Or if she's doing okay? 

:sad:


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> @_Oswin_ and anyone else considering Te:
> 
> Regarding my earlier quote from my Te friend... a desire for and respect of credibility is something I've noticed in all the Te users I know, including the low-order Te users.
> 
> I used to debate historical periods and characters alongside an ESFP friend. I noticed that while I would go in armed with facts and vague details, she would march in there armed with literal quotes from source-able texts, only from respected historians -- IE, David Starkey with his litany of degrees (degree = credible) instead of Alison Weir, who has no doctorate of history. If I provided her with ammo from a history book, she wanted the exact quote, the page number, the edition number, and the footnote reference on where that historian gathered that information from. (Which of course I hadn't bothered to take note of, haha.)
> 
> I've seen this in my ENFP friend as well. She'll pick up a historical volume, flip it over, read the back, and if it's not written by anyone with a degree in that specific period or overall history, and there isn't a huge source reference manual in the back, she automatically discredits it as a reliable source.
> 
> Whereas I reason that you can be knowledgeable without a degree in history, that degree doesn't automatically mean you're an expert, and so on. But, things like that really seem to matter to Te, wherever it falls in the stack.
> 
> OH REALLY? WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE THEN??
> 
> Instead of, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT?
> 
> I think it might align with Ti's ability to recognize and respect independent thought and theory, colliding with Te's more pragmatic objectivity of PROVE IT.


Hm. I wonder if this is more of an Si-Te combination thing, with having an expectation that 'experts' will know what they're talking about? I don't really see that in myself - I constantly question people with degrees/qualifications because to me that means nothing. As long as you jump through hoops and play the game, you can get a qualification. It doesn't mean you know what you're talking about (especially on a topic which can be open to interpretation which is.... all of them, really). Yes, for something like science, it means you have a lot of information thrown at you by professors/textbooks, but that's all it is - secondhand information. And science changes all the time, so there's no consistency to the 'facts' it spews.

Also, no way could I be bothered remembering quotes or specific texts - the basic idea is enough, unless I have a deep interest in it (i.e. writing, which I'll research into the depths of internet/book oblivion and back). Te is more about getting enough to finish the job, as far as I've understood it, and unless there's some other investment (Fi) there's no reason for the user to be bothered learning something inside out. In fact, my Ti-Fe using sister tends to need a lot more background information than me, and is much better at using/remembering specific sources.


----------



## Greyhart

SugarPlum said:


> Has anyone seen the new show called "Stitchers"?
> 
> I am watching the pilot right now. Seems very interesting. ..


It sounds exiting. I'll check it.



ElliCat said:


> I KNEW IT! Our mothers are almost the same person. :whoa: (Except mine's probably sp/so.) Your mother sounds more like stories I've heard about my grandfather, who apparently used to befriend strangers in a similarly aggressive way. (Unfortunately I can't guess at his type or get his side of the story because he's no longer around, in the earthly physical sense at least.) My grandmother still tut-tuts over it, which I find hilarious because she tends to aggressively make conversation with strangers in everyday situations, but I don't know if it's out of love of humanity or just because she thinks the world will fall apart and society will stop functioning if people don't engage in small talk.


What I've seen from Fe doms it seem they have almost compulsive need to stick their metaphorical hands into metaphorical pots of the situation. Not in a Se dom way, no. More like they start feeling lost if they aren't "working" within it. As if they need to start conversations to be able to orient themselves. I am "poke ant nest and watch what happens" kind, I both engage, and then retreat to observe ripples I've created, and then come back to rattle situation more.



laurie17 said:


> Also, could someone explain how social introversion/extroversion works with the MBTI cognitive function theory of i.e. Ti vs Te, Si vs Se etc.? I don't get it.


Sometimes it's the same, the other time it isn't. The end.



Barakiel said:


> Actually, I'm curious, how would you say Si and Ne interact in the types of SJ and NP? @angelcat, @Greyhart, @ElliCat, @fair phantom, this is for you. :laughing:


Ne-Si - Si is basket full of bits of interesting info that Ne can pull to enrich new idea.
Si-Ne - Si is the library, Ne is used to nourish and expand it.



shinynotshiny said:


> I don't.
> 
> But.
> 
> How about socionics ISFJ (which would be ISFp, SEI)?


shiny is slowly escalating towards Madness.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> shiny is slowly escalating towards Madness.


NO?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> GUYS I DON'T HAVE TE
> 
> what is credibility
> 
> reliable sources
> 
> empiricism
> 
> efficiency
> 
> what


Well, do you really think you don't have Te? I'm curious as to how you really are. :wink:



shinynotshiny said:


> As for @_alittlebear_... I wonder if I upset her the other day? Or if she's doing okay?
> 
> :sad:


I'm sure she's fine, having faith in our friends is what's important. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, do you really think you don't have Te? I'm curious as to how you really are. :wink:


Baraki, don't ruin my identity crisis!


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Baraki, don't ruin my identity crisis!


 Fine, fine, but to counter that, Te isn't empiricism or efficiency.


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I never get it when someone says 'I don't like dogs/cats/other animal' because they're just as diverse as humans - they all have their own personality.


And just like some personalities, people have been victimized by some in the past, who are you to say whether their past is invalid? :wink:


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> Good that you can be that attached to an animal. Some of us just find them irritating, though, and I've never liked dogs. :wink:


I appreciate dogs' overall loyalty and goodness. Though one of my dogs acts like a lazy cat.


----------



## ElliCat

hoopla said:


> I'm an olive toned loaf of wonder bread. People don't think it's possible, but it is. It's why blonde would wash me out. I was born with dirt colored hair.
> 
> Also thank you for the compliments.  My original video sucked, which is why I deleted it. I had my glasses off in it though. Sucks for you.


I'd believe it! My sister is a bit similar when she's working inside a lot - gets really pale even with an olive skin tone. It tans nicely when she does go out into the sun, but for most of the year it's pale + some freckles.

Sucks for me? Noooo I actually LIKE checking out people's glasses!

@Gray Romantic I could believe ESTJ for you, going by what you've written. You sound similar to one of my grandmothers, who I originally thought was ESFJ but when I visited her over Christmas started considering ESTJ instead. She's one of those people who is full of "should"s and social responsibility and all that, but she's much more disturbed by inefficiency and stupidity than disharmony in the environment. 

Do you think inferior Fi sounds like you when you're stressed? You mentioned being overly emotional and unable to think logically...



laurie17 said:


> I think INFP definitely makes sense for you - you're one of the few people who I really see as 100% INFP (like an INTJ on the INTJ boards who was so INTJ, unlike all of the people trying really hard to be one).


Oh man maybe I have to PM you for gossip, because most of these mistypes seem to pass me by... Unless they're really obvious, of course. But I guess I don't pay a lot of attention to analysing people's types for myself because I reason that I can't see inside their heads and therefore might be missing a lot of important info. Goodness knows how much I keep to myself, at least!



> INFP is just the one that works for me, because it felt like... it didn't work for ages (that makes very little sense, but...). I kind of just flowed through INFJ (from the first test I took) to INTP (because logic, obviously) to INTJ (because no Fe + being perceived as xNTJ by friends as, because I was gradually getting over social anxiety/agoraphobia/anxiety stuff, I became less passive and got more of a proactive approach going). I was sort of thinking about my type, but it was more interesting to look at other types - especially the types of my friends, because they're so different. It's like I love looking at really old history, but not modern history - modern history is familiar, whereas ancient history is completely different.


No I think I got it! I wonder how many of us originally got INFJ on the test? I did, and both my father (ISFP) and sister (probably ESFJ) did too. Neither of them were convinced, but I was. >_>

I briefly considered INTP for myself too, for the same reason. Never INTJ though. 

I'm kind of the opposite. I'm only interested in types as far as I can get some use out of them. Like I probably don't know as much about INTJ's because I don't know any. But I researched the hell out of ENTP because I really wanted to understand my boyfriend. (And seeing @Greyhart's posts here help a lot in that regard too, because she reminds me quite a bit of him, but he's not nearly as forthcoming about how his mind works. It's wonderful to get an idea of what's going on in there. SO different to me!)



> Also that kitten picture is so cute :lovekitty:


I NO RITE



tine said:


> Little thing on the spelling:
> 
> _Extrovert (term). Psychology. a person characterized by *extroversion*; a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment (opposed to introvert ). Psychology. to direct (the mind, one's interest, etc.) outward or to things outside the self._
> 
> So from that Id say it was based on a focus rather than an energy thing. Maybe extravert is the energy side and so *wouldnt* come into mbti etc?





laurie17 said:


> I'm glad we've sorted this out! So, you can be a withdrawn extrovert - or not a people-person, yet still be extroverted. Right?


I wonder if the whole energy thing started out as someone trying to narrow it down to one simple question you could ask someone in order to determine E vs. I. Problem with it is that I've found out the majority of people really don't know, when you frame it like that. Some people are very heavy on the extroversion or introversion so it's easy to tell straight away, but a lot of the time I really have to observe them for a while before I can figure it out. 

I know some extroverts who are definitely not people-people. I probably lean towards being a people-person, but I'm very introverted.



laurie17 said:


> Hm. I wonder if this is more of an Si-Te combination thing, with having an expectation that 'experts' will know what they're talking about? I don't really see that in myself - I constantly question people with degrees/qualifications because to me that means nothing. As long as you jump through hoops and play the game, you can get a qualification. It doesn't mean you know what you're talking about (especially on a topic which can be open to interpretation which is.... all of them, really). Yes, for something like science, it means you have a lot of information thrown at you by professors/textbooks, but that's all it is - secondhand information. And science changes all the time, so there's no consistency to the 'facts' it spews.


Might be Te suppressed by Fi. You don't see science as infallible or reliable so you won't necessarily accept it as an authority. I have a similar belief, actually - a degree on its own means nothing. I need to either analyse the quality of their work on my own (if I know enough) or try to gauge it through the opinions of others who knows more than I do. Not always easy to do, especially if I know very little myself.



> Also, no way could I be bothered remembering quotes or specific texts - the basic idea is enough, unless I have a deep interest in it (i.e. writing, which I'll research into the depths of internet/book oblivion and back). Te is more about getting enough to finish the job, as far as I've understood it, and unless there's some other investment (Fi) there's no reason for the user to be bothered learning something inside out. In fact, my Ti-Fe using sister tends to need a lot more background information than me, and is much better at using/remembering specific sources.


I wonder if that's the result of low-but-not-devalued Te? Because I have little patience for that either. Although if I get caught up in a debate you bet I'll be combing through statistics and keeping track of courses and triple-checking the reliability of them, and demanding the same of others. 



Greyhart said:


> Pets are family members to me. I was raised like this.


I wasn't raised like it but I very strongly feel the same way. Has been a source of conflict between me and my father, who was raised by a farming family who saw animals as tools rather than living, emotional beings.


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> I appreciate dogs' overall loyalty and goodness. Though one of my dogs acts like a lazy cat.


Loyal to their owners, sure. :wink: Even though I don't like animals at all, cats are my favorite. :happy:


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> Loyal to their owners, sure. :wink: Even though I don't like animals at all, cats are my favorite. :happy:


Pfft, such IxFP.
@ElliCat inferior Fi makes sense, little emotional outbursts that are nothing like me


----------



## Tad Cooper

Living dead said:


> The best things in life are often difficult.


Like pets, but theyre so cute and funny they get away with it!


----------



## Darkbloom

tine said:


> Like pets, but theyre so cute and funny they get away with it!


Well,I wouldn't really put pets into "difficult" category,but they are cute 

Anyway,I do like animals a lot,but as animals,I don't think they can be compared to humans exactly _because_ interaction with them is so simple and honest.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> I never get it when someone says 'I don't like dogs/cats/other animal' because they're just as diverse as humans - they all have their own personality.


It's a matter of experience. When I was born my family already had a cat and a crow. Since then I've never not had a pet.

____

Unrelated but I remembered a thing I liked in Jurassic World - the not-so-subtle "birds are dinos" in the beginning when camera shows a close view of what looks like raptor foot and then zooms out to show that it is a crow.


----------



## Immolate

Pets are heartwarming, I love my dog, but I'm aware of the fact I'll have to watch him die one day. That's why, for me, pets are a source of happiness as well as pain. I'd rather not repeat the process in the future.


----------



## Barakiel

Speaking of pets, I have a question. Why is it when cannibalism is brought up, people are shocked and appalled, yet if we treat animals as close to humans, why are we not appalled at eating them? :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Speaking of pets, I have a question. Why is it when cannibalism is brought up, people are shocked and appalled, yet if we treat animals as close to humans, why are we not appalled at eating them? :wink:




Your memory fails you.

As in, I am certainly appalled.


Where is @hoopla? Shiny to @hoopla.


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Speaking of pets, I have a question. Why is it when cannibalism is brought up, people are shocked and appalled, yet if we treat animals as close to humans, why are we not appalled at eating them? :wink:


Cannibalism were and is practiced in some tribes. Meaning it's society-instilled value.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> Cannibalism were and is practiced in some tribes. Meaning it's society-instilled value.


It's just funny to me that we, well, ideally treat pets as equal to humans, yet our society values don't reflect that. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Speaking of pets, I have a question. Why is it when cannibalism is brought up, people are shocked and appalled, yet if we treat animals as close to humans, why are we not appalled at eating them? :wink:


We have a biological block in our brain against cannibalism, same as with incest. Both of which are concepts that are traditionally done in a ritual way, for similar reasons (eating this strong warrior will give me his qualities, marrying my sister will strengthen the bloodline). Both can lead to all sorts of diseases and such. There are records of animal cannibalism...pigs for instance will sometimes eat their own offspring :dispirited: That said, there are some humans who would eat their own children as well...I remember hearing one explanation, "It is cold in the ground, why would we bury them? This way they are part of us". I think we're really creeped out by cannibalism because...tigers might eat humans if they are hungry, that doesn't bother us, but a human who eats other humans isn't really that human. It just goes against the natural order. 

Many serial killers engage in cannibalism. No one really knows what is going on in the minds of serial killers, but their killings are generally quite ritualistic and it might be related there.

I'm very sad because today driving I saw both a dead dog and a dead cat ( I honestly...I drive all the time and I've never hit an animal, I don't understand why I'm always seeing these dead animals littering the roadside. But...I don't know. It's sad for everyone involved(


----------



## Greyhart

Pharaons married their daughters. It's society-instilled value too. Marrying your first cousin has be perfectly OK for a long time too.

I've read somewhere that without that value we are attracted to the members of our "tribe" aka family.


----------



## Greyhart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wari’_people#Cannibalism

I'd think we should have some sort of biological "no no" reaction to eating body of our dead - it can carry a disease that killed them after all.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Pharaons married their daughters. It's society-instilled value too. Marrying your first cousin has be perfectly OK for a long time too.
> 
> I've read somewhere that without that value we are attracted to the members of our "tribe" aka family.




Do you remember where you read that? I've read the opposite, that exposure to each other throughout life inhibits sexual interest, possibly an evolutionary adaptation to ensure diversity.



Maybe. I don't remember either.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> We have a biological block in our brain against cannibalism, same as with incest. Both of which are concepts that are traditionally done in a ritual way, for similar reasons (eating this strong warrior will give me his qualities, marrying my sister will strengthen the bloodline). Both can lead to all sorts of diseases and such. There are records of animal cannibalism...pigs for instance will sometimes eat their own offspring :dispirited: That said, there are some humans who would eat their own children as well...I remember hearing one explanation, "It is cold in the ground, why would we bury them? This way they are part of us". I think we're really creeped out by cannibalism because...tigers might eat humans if they are hungry, that doesn't bother us, but a human who eats other humans isn't really that human. It just goes against the natural order.
> 
> Many serial killers engage in cannibalism. No one really knows what is going on in the minds of serial killers, but their killings are generally quite ritualistic and it might be related there.
> 
> I'm very sad because today driving I saw both a dead dog and a dead cat ( I honestly...I drive all the time and I've never hit an animal, I don't understand why I'm always seeing these dead animals littering the roadside. But...I don't know. It's sad for everyone involved(


Oh please, we're happy to slaughter each other in droves for idealised realities and just for fun, but that doesn't disturb the _natural order_, oh no. :dry:

I remember seeing a dead bird on the ground a few days ago... then I went on about my day, really none of my concern.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Do you remember where you read that? I've read the opposite, that exposure to each other throughout life inhibits sexual interest, possibly an evolutionary adaptation to ensure diversity.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe. I don't remember either.


"On some geeky site news site" tm.


----------



## Greyhart

Oh wait it's on wiki too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction


----------



## Persephone Soul

tine said:


> laurie17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Why" questions! ahhh lol. They make my head spin, although I enjoy giving them and i know they are necessary.
> 
> okay...
> 
> So hmmm... I honestly feel like if others jump on board and the other person feels attacked in anyway, it will cut off my access to information. Keep your enemies close I guess? Let me think of an example..
> *This is relateable for me, but maybe with more of a focus on making sure I get to have all information, can see all points of view etc so I can give a well rounded response in future.
> *
> Okay, so let's say (COMPLETELY hypothetical), my sister's husband was rumored to be cheating on her. While everyone is flipping their shit on him, I am remaining cool as a cucumber trying to coerce him to come with me privately. On the inside I want to rip him to shreds, but on the outside I am acting non-judgmental/confrontational to drain him for all the information I can get from him. The less attacked he feels the more comfortable, the more info will be revealed. Then, once the full story is out, I process and if it is as bad at is was made out to be, WHoley shit, watch the f*** out. I may even show my right hook (yes, I have done this..not proud). If I see that there is more to the story, and it isn't what it's made out to be, then I will try and translate to clear up confusion to my sister.
> *This would make me flip because I'm very defensive of family. So I'd probably have to cool off a lot before confronting him about it (I try to never deal with issues when angry/upset/confused - I like to think about it for a while, work out what bothers me and why and then deal with the other person.
> I'd be likely to talk to people around the couple before the couple themselves then talk to the couple individually and together and then retreat, think on things, ask more questions to catch the guy out if he was cheating etc.
> If he was I'd probably hurt him somehow because I hate people who cheat, plus it's on someone I care about.
> *
> Same with, for instance my own husband. When there have been certain things that may have looked questionable, inside I freak out, but outwardly, I stay calm and try and ask questions. To build the whole story. Once the story is built, then I will react accordingly. Once again, if i have all the pieces and it adds up to a "no bueno" moment, I can flip my shit. But I usually hold it in until I piece it all together.
> *With that I'd examine everything going on in our lives, assess what had changed and how and why, then confront him directly (if awkwardly). Id probably ask if everything was okay etc before getting to the point, to give him the chance to admit to things before I ask it myself (I like to let people explain themselves fully before judging them).
> If he had cheated I'd be gone, no compromises. I dont deal with liars or cheaters. The thing is, I'd still want to end it on good terms, because why have a huge drama when you can go "well, youre a bit of a dick, but if Im no longer involved then we can still be civil".
> *
> Same with my kids. If I think they did something, I ask questions to make sure I punish them accordingly. I will almost make friends with them, so they feel comfortable to tell me the truth.
> *Kids are weird for me, I have no idea what to do if theyre bad - goes to show what a terrible parent I'd make!** I guess I'd try and explain what they did was wrong, why it was wrong and ask them why they thought it was okay to do etc so I showed I was trying to understand.*
> 
> I hardly ever just 'react'. When I do, it is massive, and then I calm down. Kind of volcanic. But this is on things that have directly gone against my morals in a mischievous way. Or something that has interfered with my family. Like I don't need facts then, I just go in full protection-mode. Rumors and hear-say, I NEED further information. When things happen in front of my own eyes, I am more likely to react, although it still depends.
> *I can be very reactive, but mostly internally. I dont generally get angry or really upset and if I do its for a good reason. It tends to build like a spring being coiled and then lashes out very aggressively. I'll feel myself getting more wound up as whatever bothers me continues, but I'll spend so long trying to work out why it bothers me I wont act and deal with the problem.
> *
> I also rely on my Si I think. I am alert and aware to abnormal behavior. VERY.
> *I could see that as Se - I notice changes in people/things very easily.
> *
> EDIT: I just remember doing this all through school. My whole life really. It's like, I feel like if they feel attacked or judged by me, then I will never get inside their head. I won't get the truth of the matter. I want to get to the core.
> 
> Other people jumping in, ruins that for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hm, so you mentioned wanting the full picture a lot of the time. I know that's almost the opposite of my ISFP (?) friend, who jumps to conclusions based on very little evidence (maybe unhealthy Ni?) plus you want a variety of sources, which might be some Ne coming out under stress? I'm still having some trouble with the Fe-Ti vs Fi-Te thing though. @_tine_ @_alittlebear_ and @_Greyhart_ do you have any good descriptions of how Ti-Fe might be used in these situations?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hopefully that helps? I replied in bold.
Click to expand...

This was very interesting. Seems like we can be quite similar , yet different lol! Would you find this stuff as SFJ or NFP? or heck, SFP?


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Oh wait it's on wiki too.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction


Creepy. 
But, you know, I really think there's a balance, I honestly don't see a huge problem with cousins, maybe just because I'm used to it from reading books? Like, I wouldn't marry my own cousin obviously but if I lived 200 years ago it's quite likely I would (if I had any male cousins). I feel like marrying one's own close relatives has historically been taboo for all but the very powerful (such as Pharaohs or kings or such, only those considered semi-divine or actually divine).
But that's just a guess I have, not sure where it came from.


----------



## fair phantom

@angelcat @Barakiel


laurie17 said:


> I'd maybe instead say Ne-Si = I have these ideas, but this one grabs me most because it has the most potential and I want to explore it (and the world/characters/themes that come with it). I don't want to know how it will turn out before I write it - I want to discover that through exploring it. I know this and this would make it better, so I'll throw those in. I won't plan it, but maybe a rough outline would help me remember some important parts. I might write it out of order based on which bits are most developing in my head, otherwise I might lose them. Oh, I didn't expect that to happen! That was great.
> 
> (I'm actually pretty diligent about writing - approximately 1,000 words per day no matter what - but over the last few days I've slacked off due to life pressure and it makes me sad...)
> 
> Also, I realised all my ideas are on a massive-small scale. So there will be a huge conflict going on that's affecting everyone, then many smaller personal conflicts, one of which is the main driving force behind the protagonist's actions - but there has to be a huge scale for the overall conflict, which is why I could never write contemporary fiction.


I agree with this. And not just for stories. This is how I chose my thesis topic (which proved, of course, to be too ambitious and involved. I finished it _eventually_, but I would have been better off choosing a topic with a narrower scope...but that wouldn't have been as fun.)


----------



## Bugs

Oswin said:


> Creepy.
> But, you know, I really think there's a balance, I honestly don't see a huge problem with cousins, maybe just because I'm used to it from reading books? Like, I wouldn't marry my own cousin obviously but if I lived 200 years ago it's quite likely I would (if I had any male cousins). I feel like marrying one's own close relatives has historically been taboo for all but the very powerful (such as Pharaohs or kings or such, only those considered semi-divine or actually divine).
> But that's just a guess I have, not sure where it came from.


I think it was common practice for nobility world wide to marry their relatives , some even as close as first cousins.


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> @SugarPlum I may be wrong after all.
> 
> If it helps, not all of it stems from the fact I perceive you to be a strong Fe.
> 
> Some of it is just your energy. You are so fiery and intense. Mostly bubbly and easygoing, but those bubbles burst.
> 
> I found it amusing you believe we have similar energy. You come across as... more fiery than I see myself.
> 
> Sure I'm passionate. But it gets bad when you are 11 and a friend says horrible things about gay people... and you honestly can't get words out of your mouth.
> 
> Or you want to stand up for your friend whom everyone is bullying but... you can't. Or you even go along with it secretly because... you fail to defend.
> 
> Or everyone says extremely nasty, sexist things... and you are wondering how to get the words out, and you just can't. The only justice that can be served is talking to the teacher about it. That's what I do. I find someone whom can help... or I don't say anything. I wondered if anxiety was hindering how I naturally act but I dig up the archives and before my social anxiety was... a nasty thing that's sort of how I always was.
> 
> You strike me as the type who is mostly unassuming unless you dislike what is up in the air... and you make that shit known. Bold, even.
> 
> So I found that observation interesting.
> 
> I also knew a girl... who rarely spoke actually. She was fine observing. She considered herself an extrovert. So did I. She was almost exclusively around people and didn't like being alone.
> 
> I vs E is one of those concepts that has been so blurred due to pop psychology that the genuine meaning is nuanced and almost lost.
> 
> So maybe you're just a fiery, feisty introvert.


See, I agree with everything you've said here. (Finally) lol. The energy I related to with you, was my calm and collected yet shy self. The more nervous I get, the more high energy i get. But its sloppy. Its not natural. Its uncomfortable, but I can't stop. It is the weirdest thing because MOST people are the opposite. Yes, i am very very feisty. And passionate. When I erupt, its very aggressive. I started to tell myself that its Fe, because my emotions are always involved, but I don't necessarily moralize. I flip out because something is going against my own emotions/morals. My sister will tell me not to get my feathers ruffled before she tells me something she knows I am gonna hate. My intensity is , well... intense. I was chalking it up to enneagram as well 468. 

I am most definitely a feisty/feiry, passionately-intense introvert yet bubbly introvert. My aggression (when it actually comes out) is never moralizing. Its just " am lion , hear me roarrrrr" or "i will beat you down and spit on your corpse". Jk jk lol But usualy, i am just shy, bubbly and pleasant. I am a mess lol


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Oh wait it's on wiki too.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction



Ah, so it's when they meet as adults not having grown up together for the most part. What I read basically supports this, but rather than calling it a value, it's more a result of exposure throughout life.


----------



## Bugs

sugarplum said:


> see, i agree with everything you've said here. (finally) lol. The energy i related to with you, was my calm and collected yet shy self. The more nervous i get, the more high energy i get. But its sloppy. Its not natural. Its uncomfortable, but i can't stop. It is the weirdest thing because most people are the opposite. Yes, i am very very feisty. And passionate. When i erupt, its very aggressive. I started to tell myself that its fe, because my emotions are always involved, but i don't necessarily moralize. I flip out because something is going against my own emotions/morals. My sister will tell me not to get my feathers ruffled before she tells me something she knows i am gonna hate. My intensity is , well... Intense. I was chalking it up to enneagram as well 468.
> 
> I am most definitely a feisty/feiry, passionately-intense introvert yet bubbly introvert. My aggression (when it actually comes out) is never moralizing. Its just " am lion , hear me roarrrrr" or "i will beat you down and spit on your corpse". Jk jk lol but usualy, i am just shy, bubbly and pleasant. I am a mess lol


infp


----------



## Bugs

shinynotshiny said:


> Ah, so it's when they meet as adults not having grown up together for the most part. What I read basically supports this, but rather than calling it a value, it's more a result of exposure throughout life.


I wonder if one gets engaged to their first cousin ( not having grown up with them or even knowing about the relation) but then are told they are relatives if this fundamentally changes the thinking in the brain.


----------



## Entropic

Bugs said:


> infp


What? It's so Fe. Fi would never say "I'm a lion, hear me roar". Fe would, not Fi. Fi would say, "I'm so angry because", or "this makes me angry".


----------



## Bugs

Entropic said:


> What? It's so Fe. Fi would never say "I'm a lion, hear me roar". Fe would, not Fi. Fi would say, "I'm so angry because", or "this makes me angry".


It's inferior Te having the over reaction. An over reaction from an inferior function is the psyche attempting to correct something taken as 'wrong' such as being upset about something. Te is doing _something_ to try to equalize the situation even though it might be making it worse.


----------



## Entropic

Bugs said:


> It's inferior Te having the over reaction. An over reaction from an inferior function is the psyche attempting to correct something taken as 'wrong' such as being upset about something. Te is doing _something_ to try to equalize the situation even though it might be making it worse.


Yes, but inferior Te is more about stating subjective values as laws e.g. it's right to be on time, so therefore everyone should be on time too. There's no way an Fi type would conceptualize their anger the way you expressed it there. Only Fe would do that.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Ah, so it's when they meet as adults not having grown up together for the most part. What I read basically supports this, but rather than calling it a value, it's more a result of exposure throughout life.


But what if they were raised together and said it is OK from the start? As I said people ~legally~ (as in acceptable in society) had children with their children.

As for biological diversity, I'd think that imperative is a survival of species so a sever "genetic" repulsion towards inbreeding could potentially kill the species in a situation were only a very small population left. Again I've read somewhere that there were less than 10'000 **** Sapiens as some point of our history.

The original question was about cannibalism, though. I'd think that revulsion towards eating own species would be beneficial for said species but apparently it can be rewritten by culture as well.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> But what if they were raised together and said it is OK from the start? As I said people ~legally~ (as in acceptable in society) had children with their children.
> 
> As for biological diversity, I'd think that imperative is a survival of species so a sever "genetic" repulsion towards inbreeding could potentially kill the species in a situation were only a very small population left. Again I've read somewhere that there were less than 10'000 **** Sapiens as some point of our history.
> 
> The original question was about cannibalism, though. I'd think that revulsion towards eating own species would be beneficial for said species but apparently it can be rewritten by culture as well.


But was it people, generally, or was it one specific person, for instance a pharaon, who was above normal rules?
I find it difficult to believe (and I am not remembering an instance) when parent-child or sibling-sibling (maybe half-sibling though, I'm not sure) marriage/etc was everv widely accepted under the common people?

For instance, it was clearly taboo in ancient Greece (see: Oedipus Rex) but the gods were portrayed as being incestuous/etc.


----------



## Dangerose

I don't know that Fi operates so strictly. I mean, it is a subjective function, tuned to the user's life-outlook, can we really fit it into these strict objective rules? It feels wrong to be saying, "Fi has to be this and this and this and if you have this you can't be Fi"


----------



## Persephone Soul

*deleted*


----------



## Tad Cooper

SugarPlum said:


> This was very interesting. Seems like we can be quite similar , yet different lol! Would you find this stuff as SFJ or NFP? or heck, SFP?


I think youre using Se, because it seems like the similarity is based on Se traits. So maybe SFP?


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> Oh man maybe I have to PM you for gossip, because most of these mistypes seem to pass me by... Unless they're really obvious, of course. But I guess I don't pay a lot of attention to analysing people's types for myself because I reason that I can't see inside their heads and therefore might be missing a lot of important info. Goodness knows how much I keep to myself, at least!
> 
> 
> No I think I got it! I wonder how many of us originally got INFJ on the test? I did, and both my father (ISFP) and sister (probably ESFJ) did too. Neither of them were convinced, but I was. >_>
> 
> I briefly considered INTP for myself too, for the same reason. Never INTJ though.
> 
> I'm kind of the opposite. I'm only interested in types as far as I can get some use out of them. Like I probably don't know as much about INTJ's because I don't know any. But I researched the hell out of ENTP because I really wanted to understand my boyfriend. (And seeing @_Greyhart_'s posts here help a lot in that regard too, because she reminds me quite a bit of him, but he's not nearly as forthcoming about how his mind works. It's wonderful to get an idea of what's going on in there. SO different to me!)
> 
> 
> I NO RITE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the whole energy thing started out as someone trying to narrow it down to one simple question you could ask someone in order to determine E vs. I. Problem with it is that I've found out the majority of people really don't know, when you frame it like that. Some people are very heavy on the extroversion or introversion so it's easy to tell straight away, but a lot of the time I really have to observe them for a while before I can figure it out.
> 
> I know some extroverts who are definitely not people-people. I probably lean towards being a people-person, but I'm very introverted.
> 
> 
> Might be Te suppressed by Fi. You don't see science as infallible or reliable so you won't necessarily accept it as an authority. I have a similar belief, actually - a degree on its own means nothing. I need to either analyse the quality of their work on my own (if I know enough) or try to gauge it through the opinions of others who knows more than I do. Not always easy to do, especially if I know very little myself.
> 
> 
> I wonder if that's the result of low-but-not-devalued Te? Because I have little patience for that either. Although if I get caught up in a debate you bet I'll be combing through statistics and keeping track of courses and triple-checking the reliability of them, and demanding the same of others.


Haha, it's mostly when they start describing how their minds work and I just start thinking 'But that sounds so much like X function'. I never say it to them, of course, because unless they ask for my opinion on their type, it's their business and not mine.

I think my ISTP sister got INTJ or something on the same test... INxJ types seem to come up a lot. It's very strange.

Well, mostly it's looking up functions in relation to my friends or family to try and apply them to people I know. But because of misunderstandings and learning gradually, everyone's made a lot of mistakes typing themselves and others (although my ESTP friend gave MBTI up pretty quickly, she initially typed as ISFJ...). I tend to discuss MBTI only with my sister and ISFP (?) friend and we've had a lot of debates about what the functions could be interpreted as, which is fun.

Yeah, that question always seems to really mess up people's perceptions of themselves - especially as introverts are portrayed as all intelligent and thoughtful while extroverts are stereotyped as airheads and party-goers. I think it's definitely a focus thing. Extroverts tend towards a very outward focus, which is very noticeable in my ESFP mum, ESTP friend and ESFJ friends. My ISFJ friend tends to be a bit outward-looking, but I think that's him being a 2w1, partly. 

I wonder if it is a Te thing, then. Just a low down version? I don't know... I think getting a very wide variety of information is the best way to make sure of something. That information can be articles, opinions, journals, books, thoughts, images or anything else, but if I'm interested in something, I need to know as much as possible about the thing itself and its discourse to feel okay to evaluate it.

Haha, well in debates I have to make sure my information is correct because it's a bit frustrating to get something wrong when you're arguing your point. I can't stand it when, in a debate, people say things very confidently that are completely just their own opinion and they state it as if it's a fact and there's no way you can disagree with them or they just say that they will never change their mind (it doesn't happen often, thankfully).




Greyhart said:


> It's a matter of experience. When I was born my family already had a cat and a crow. Since then I've never not had a pet.
> 
> ____
> 
> Unrelated but I remembered a thing I liked in Jurassic World - the not-so-subtle "birds are dinos" in the beginning when camera shows a close view of what looks like raptor foot and then zooms out to show that it is a crow.


True... I just worry about our society being such that we elevate ourselves above other living creatures like that...

Haha, that shot was a nice touch. I enjoyed it.




fair phantom said:


> @_angelcat_ @_Barakiel_
> 
> I agree with this. And not just for stories. This is how I chose my thesis topic (which proved, of course, to be too ambitious and involved. I finished it _eventually_, but I would have been better off choosing a topic with a narrower scope...but that wouldn't have been as fun.)


That's true, actually. For my final essay, I chose a huge topic and actually managed mostly to crush it down into something manageable, but it was a struggle. It was very fun though :ghost3:




Greyhart said:


> But what if they were raised together and said it is OK from the start? As I said people ~legally~ (as in acceptable in society) had children with their children.
> 
> As for biological diversity, I'd think that imperative is a survival of species so a sever "genetic" repulsion towards inbreeding could potentially kill the species in a situation were only a very small population left. Again I've read somewhere that there were less than 10'000 **** Sapiens as some point of our history.
> 
> The original question was about cannibalism, though. I'd think that revulsion towards eating own species would be beneficial for said species but apparently it can be rewritten by culture as well.


I think inbreeding tends to be taken care of usually in nature by the males or females moving away from their siblings to find their own territory or shifting into different packs. 

The revulsion for hunting and eating one's own species would be beneficial, but many animals eat their young/feed their young to their siblings and/or eat the corpses of their species if they need the energy. It's more of a practical survival approach. I think cannibalism is quite socialised, really.


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> But was it people, generally, or was it one specific person, for instance a pharaon, who was above normal rules?
> I find it difficult to believe (and I am not remembering an instance) when parent-child or sibling-sibling (maybe half-sibling though, I'm not sure) marriage/etc was everv widely accepted under the common people?
> 
> For instance, it was clearly taboo in ancient Greece (see: Oedipus Rex) but the gods were portrayed as being incestuous/etc.


Pharaons were above others by culture not genetics therefor it's a cultural construct.



> "Greek law allowed marriage between a brother and sister if they had different mothers."


I realized we might be talking about different things, though. I meant inbreeding not "blocked" by biology and permitted withing a culture, not forced sexual assaults.



laurie17 said:


> I think inbreeding tends to be taken care of usually in nature by the males or females moving away from their siblings to find their own territory or shifting into different packs.


It is but in the extreme population dip complete revulsion towards inbreeding could kill species



> The revulsion for hunting and eating one's own species would be beneficial, but many animals eat their young/feed their young to their siblings and/or eat the corpses of their species if they need the energy. It's more of a practical survival approach. I think cannibalism is quite socialised, really.


I mainly think about diseases that eating corpse could bring. I think there's something of a biological trigger towards rotting food/meat we have, since it's not something that we can digest safely, unlike "true" scavenger species like vulture. In another episode "I've read or heard it somewhere" that early humanoids hunted "related" species for food. Also AIDS evolved because monkey hunters ate their prey, am I right? Since monkeys (I think it was chimps) are "related species" that could be perceived in a same way.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> But what if they were raised together and said it is OK from the start? As I said people ~legally~ (as in acceptable in society) had children with their children.
> 
> As for biological diversity, I'd think that imperative is a survival of species so a sever "genetic" repulsion towards inbreeding could potentially kill the species in a situation were only a very small population left. Again I've read somewhere that there were less than 10'000 **** Sapiens as some point of our history.
> 
> The original question was about cannibalism, though. I'd think that revulsion towards eating own species would be beneficial for said species but apparently it can be rewritten by culture as well.



It's what I read, Grey 

I'd say you're right about survival trumping any effects of inbreeding. The argument, if I remember correctly, is that kids who had grown up together in orphanages had similar responses toward sexual attraction that siblings did. In other words, not common. It points to the reason as one of exposure rather than value, but that's fairly simple.

Cannibalism. Well, I'll have to switch from mantis cannibalism to human cannibalism.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> It is but in the extreme population dip complete revulsion towards inbreeding could kill species
> 
> 
> I mainly think about diseases that eating corpse could bring. I think there's something of a biological trigger towards rotting food/meat we have, since it's not something that we can digest safely, unlike "true" scavenger species like vulture. In another episode "I've read or heard it somewhere" that early humanoids hunted "related" species for food. Also AIDS evolved because monkey hunters ate their prey, am I right? Since monkeys (I think it was chimps) are "related species" that could be perceived in a same way.


I think the biological urge to breed would override the natural inclination to spread out away from each other in some cases. I'm not sure.

Hm, I don't really know about much to do with that, bar there was supposed to be some link between cannibalism and madness, but I don't know how much of a socialised view that is - that someone must be mad to eat someone else (plus the whole typical prejudice against mental illness included in that idea - that a sane person can't do terrible things etc. which is an awful view). On a TV documentary, an owl fed her smallest chick to its siblings because it was likely it wouldn't survive and she hadn't been able to get enough prey for the others, so it does happen.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> I think the biological urge to breed would override the natural inclination to spread out away from each other in some cases. I'm not sure.


ooh, I also remember that humans have/had "a drive" to spread more than many other species due to cockroach-level adaptability we have. If cockroach would bend environment to its will.



> Hm, I don't really know about much to do with that, bar *there was supposed to be some link between cannibalism and madness*, but I don't know how much of a socialised view that is - that someone must be mad to eat someone else (plus the whole typical prejudice against mental illness included in that idea - that a sane person can't do terrible things etc. which is an awful view). On a TV documentary, an owl fed her smallest chick to its siblings because it was likely it wouldn't survive and she hadn't been able to get enough prey for the others, so it does happen.


Perhaps it's more of "go mad enough _to break base rules of your culture_".

This tho

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannibalism

Vs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocannibalism

"Cannibalism is something that has been found wherever and whenever humans have formed societies."

Humans are mess to study.


----------



## Vermillion

Oswin said:


> I don't know that Fi operates so strictly. I mean, it is a subjective function, tuned to the user's life-outlook, can we really fit it into these strict objective rules? It feels wrong to be saying, "Fi has to be this and this and this and if you have this you can't be Fi"


Fi is a function attuned to subjective relations between the self and the object. However, it DOES have a definition within the system of typology that is objective. So yes, people who do not fit the definition are not Fi. The subjectivity and objectivity you're talking about are in two completely different areas and are non-comparable.


----------



## Persephone Soul

So, Amaterasu. .. have you read enough about me to get a clear distinction? I ask you, because I see that you are someone that will objectively analyze, and leave your subjective opinion behind. Many others have tried, but I think I have clouded their judgement, and confused them. I'm like this lingering, unsolved mystery. I've been typed as every F type there is. Are there any questions you could give maybe?

ps- I hope that ridiculous cattiness, wont paint too much of a picture of me. That was out of sorts for me.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Actually, it just HIT me. Wow. I have been so caught up in this "behavior" connection to MBTI. I need to take a step back, and think about house I actually process things.

I have been confusing myself with this whole, "i cant use Se because I dont like danger"... " i cant be Fe because I dont really like people"... "i can't be Ni because I am not goal oriented enough"... "i must use Si because I have a connection and grip on the past"... "i must use Ne, bec I can go off on tangents" thing....blah blah blah.

F*** that. How do I process information?

Hmmm...


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@shinynotshiny I understand your current confusion, but at least confirmed that Pi dominance was right for you. At the end, your dominant-inferior axis is what defines you more, and heavy introversion could make hard to read your aux.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ I understand your current confusion, but at least confirmed that Pi dominance was right for you. At the end, your dominant-inferior axis is what defines you more, and heavy introversion could make hard to read your aux.


So it goes.


----------



## Immolate

Where is @hoopla. I must share the news.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> So it goes.


I've read the other thread, and I guess that I could mistake Fe-Ti for Te as they're rather close to each other (this is why I don't type people online lol). Also, supposedly aux and tert don't really have a clear orientation, so they would be like T and F or viceversa, making a bit hard to spot their orientation. Dunno, but I recall that you felt sorry for your parents because you won't give them kids if my memory doesn't fail, and to be honest that kinda matches with what other people pointed out in your thread. Anyway this confirms that typology can be tricky, specially if you have a cognition + enneagram core that's atypical (most Fe types are associated with 2, so other combinations could pass as Te-Fi, also funny that your joke seemed to have some degree of truth DX)

Anyway, whatever is your real type will help you, even if it ends being something really unexpected.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> I've read the other thread, and I guess that I could mistake Fe-Ti for Te as they're rather close to each other (this is why I don't type people online lol). Also, supposedly aux and tert don't really have a clear orientation, so they would be like T and F or viceversa, making a bit hard to spot their orientation. Dunno, but I recall that you felt sorry for your parents because you won't give them kids if my memory doesn't fail, and to be honest that kinda matches with what other people pointed out in your thread. Anyway this confirms that typology can be tricky, specially if you have a cognition + enneagram core that's atypical (most Fe types are associated with 2, so other combinations could pass as Te-Fi, also funny that your joke seemed to have some degree of truth DX)
> 
> Anyway, whatever is your real type will help you, even if it ends being something really unexpected.


But, honestly, Fi types can't feel that kind of guilt? This is fascinating news.


----------



## Entropic

Oswin said:


> I don't know that Fi operates so strictly. I mean, it is a subjective function, tuned to the user's life-outlook, can we really fit it into these strict objective rules? It feels wrong to be saying, "Fi has to be this and this and this and if you have this you can't be Fi"


It feels wrong to you because you value Fe, pretty much. To me, from my point of view, as a Te type, it's a factual statement and it's a factually correct one. There's nothing wrong with what was being said. It's simply stating the truth because understanding the functions is fundamentally objective; if it is stated that Fi is about attraction/repulsion, then it means that one can only express Fi if one also expresses logic of attraction/repulsion. That's an objective quality of what defines Fi and cannot be changed or interpreted in any other way because if you do that, you are changing the very property of what Fi is to be understood to be. 

This is because we are operating with very specific frameworks of how the functions are defined, and therefore a person can only be typed to use a certain function if they also fit the criteria of how the function is defined within this specific framework. Deviation from the framework means deviation from the system which means you are no longer actually typing people based on the agreed principles of how the system is defined e.g. MBTI, socionics, enneagram, what have you and as such, you are doing your own thing under the guise of claiming that you are not.

There is also a difference between expanding upon known definitions and criteria and making up new criteria or objecting to old definitions and criteria. Expansion does not inherently change the innate property of the definitions that are used to define the object we are observing or attempting to measure though too much expansion will inevitably lead to such a change, but making up new ones or objecting to current definitions and criteria do.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> But, honestly, Fi types can't feel that kind of guilt? This is fascinating news.


Dunno about Fi dom or aux, but for me what really matters is that my choices are good for me, and whatever other people thinks isn't relevant as they don't get why I chose to do something in the first place. About the kids, I don't want to have children as I have zero patience and my work won't let me raise anyone properly (meaning having enough money and time for that), yet my mom and one of my grandmas tries to convince me that it would be good for me, but I'm like nope, I won't ruin my future for their sake and I consider myself not the best person for that kind of task, as I'm not house wife material since I can barely take care of myself.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> Dunno about Fi dom or aux, but for me what really matters is that my choices are good for me, and whatever other people thinks isn't relevant as they don't get why I chose to do something in the first place. About the kids, I don't want to have children as I have zero patience and my work won't let me raise anyone properly (meaning having enough money and time for that), yet my mom and one of my grandmas tries to convince me that it would be good for me, but I'm like nope, I won't ruin my future for their sake and I consider myself not the best person for that kind of task, as I'm not house wife material since I can barely take care of myself.


I felt guilty when I was a teenager and just starting to express my own opinions and beliefs. My parents are good with shame and guilt. Even so, I felt the guilt less and less and sat down with them and explained I have no intention of having kids, and if I become a mother, it will most likely be through adoption, and that isn't likely at all given my feelings and circumstances. It's been ten or so years now and my mother still holds on to the belief that I will find someone and change my ways. I kindly remind her I prefer a cat.

[PS] How long have you been following this thread? Because I have no idea when or where I said this about guilt and kids. I know I said it, I just don't remember if it was here specifically.


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, today is not a good day for me to try to make points. I promise I have good arguments about cannibalism, incest, and that Fi thing, but I am also seeing what you guys are reading from that and it does not look smart. Inferior Ti ftw.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Ok, today is not a good day for me to try to make points. I promise I have good arguments about cannibalism, incest, and that Fi thing, but I am also seeing what you guys are reading from that and it does not look smart. Inferior Ti ftw.


Do you mean bad Ti on your part or our part? 

I only briefly kept up with the cannibalism and incest. The Fi is/was a clusterfuck in my socionics questionnaire. I haven't read the posts about it here.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> I felt guilty when I was a teenager and just starting to express my own opinions and beliefs. My parents are good with shame and guilt. Even so, I felt the guilt less and less and sat down with them and explained I have no intention of having kids, and if I become a mother, it will most likely be through adoption, and that isn't likely at all given my feelings and circumstances. It's been ten or so years now and my mother still holds on to the belief that I will find someone and change my ways. I kindly remind her I prefer a cat.
> 
> [PS] How long have you been following this thread? Because I have no idea when or where I said this about guilt and kids. I know I said it, I just don't remember if it was here specifically.


Guilt tripping sucks, and I get pissed off when someone pulls that card on me. I think that introverts in general are less influenced by external information, so that won't help much to know how you judge stuff but at least shows that you have your own ideas and you won't change them unless you get a really good reason for doing that. Also parents stick to traditions so that makes difficult to tell your point to them.

I don't recall that information, as I only know that I've lurked while I was bored, but really I've seen this thread during a while.


----------



## Dangerose

Actually let me try one more time about the cannibalism:
It's never just casual, like we eat cows or pigs. Never has been, never will be. It is either a ritual thing, a desperate-measures things, or something related to the (probable ritual) of serial killers or sociopaths. Observe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_cannibalism

I think it is the same with incest. Not that definitions of incest do not change -- in some cultures it is considered incest to sleep with/marry your 5th cousin, in others, if lineage is considered through the maternal arc for instance, only the mother's relations would be considered kin, so having relations with paternal cousins would not be incest, it used to be very common for cousins to marry, only recently have we started to consider it incestuous in (most parts) of Western society. But parent-child or full sibling-full sibling relations are nearly always considered taboo, and when that taboo is broken it is generally for ritual or symbolic reasons (strengthening the blood line), not that instances don't happen where this is not the case but it is definitely a sure sign of sexual depravity. And most cultures have their own definition of incest and breaking that is a serious cultural no-no, not just 'you're not allowed to marry your cousin' but 'you would never think of marrying your cousin'. In this way it is similar, but not the same, as cannibalism.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> Guilt tripping sucks, and I get pissed off when someone pulls that card on me. I think that introverts in general are less influenced by external information, so that won't help much to know how you judge stuff but at least shows that you have your own ideas and you won't change them unless you get a really good reason for doing that. Also parents stick to traditions so that makes difficult to tell your point to them.
> 
> I don't recall that information, as I only know that I've lurked while I was bored, but really I've seen this thread during a while.


Yes, they were very fond of guilt tripping, and I didn't have much of a shield against it when I was younger. Plus growing up in a Baptist Christian atmosphere drained the life out of me :joyous:

You're an expert lurker.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Do you mean bad Ti on your part or our part?
> 
> I only briefly kept up with the cannibalism and incest. The Fi is/was a clusterfuck in my socionics questionnaire. I haven't read the posts about it here.


Mine) Think I'm the only Fe-dom on this thread atm)
Depending on @SugarPlum of course.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Mine) Think I'm the only Fe-dom on this thread atm)
> Depending on @_SugarPlum_ of course.


Yes, but now, in a twist of events, I am tertiary Ti. I have joined the group eaceful:

[PS] Looking through this and this. If the functions are there, the personality isn't because it's been warped through the years.

It reads alien.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Yes, but now, in a twist of events, I am tertiary Ti. I have joined the group eaceful:
> 
> [PS] Looking through this and this. If the functions are there, the personality isn't because it's been warped through the years.
> 
> It reads alien.


I'm still unsure about why you are typing as Fe-aux, did you write up an explanation somewhere?


----------



## Greyhart

Also many seemed to assume that your terse short responses are a sign of wounded feeling while it's the normal way you response - you don't divulge more that you think is necessary.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> You can see by how many misread some of the stuff you meant. You had to clarify and still some take it the wrong way. This is possibly also because I've read your posts for last 1k pages so I can get underlying context. For example GITS gif, you talked about this anime before and I understood what you meant by it fight away - the body of her's is a shell, the scene destroys disposable vessel that can be replaced while Motoko herself lives independent of it. Obviously for others obvious conclusion it's a scene of physical violence.


Yeah, and I explain it and it still amounts to nothing.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Yeah, and I explain it and it still amounts to nothing.


I think it was taken in a way that you are trying to tailor your responses? >_>


----------



## fair phantom

reading shiny's thread makes me feel a bit like I'm in a Kafka novel.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

shinynotshiny said:


> Then please don't feel forced or pressured to complete the questionnaire. I'm grateful I'm in a much better mental state today than I was a year ago. I'd say that's why I can laugh it off in the end.
> 
> :ghost3:



Yeah, I'd like a type, and can't bring myself to just pick a random one, but questionnaires seem to being out the worst of me. I look at what I wrote and think, "What the hell?"

Maybe I can find some other way to get correctly typed for real. 

:ghost3:


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Also many seemed to assume that your terse short responses are a sign of wounded feeling while it's the normal way you response - you don't divulge more that you think is necessary.


lol oh my goodness

The only wounded feeling I had was a sense of utmost frustration that reached its peak today when I didn't want to deal with what I felt was bullshit.

But yeah, I'm laconic~


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I think it was taken in a way that you are trying to tailor your responses? >_>


That's the bullshit I'm referring to eaceful:


----------



## wastethenight

Alright, I'm just gonna go for it then.

Can childhood behaviour offer any insight into personality type? Because I've been having an existential crisis trying to figure this out for months and I'm wondering if thinking about how I was as a kid rather than continuing to overanalyse how I am now might offer that 'aha!' that I'm desperate for. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Immolate

voodoodoll said:


> Alright, I'm just gonna go for it then.
> 
> Can childhood behaviour offer any insight into personality type? Because I've been having an existential crisis trying to figure this out for months and I'm wondering if thinking about how I was as a kid rather than continuing to overanalyse how I am now might offer that 'aha!' that I'm desperate for.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I think childhood experiences are important to consider, as well as the environment you grew up in and how it could have potentially affected your growth as a person (intellectual/emotional).

What behavior are you referring to?


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> That's the bullshit I'm referring to eaceful:


About that, typing from a short amount of posts can fail epically. I've seen people being typed as Fe at first and then retyped as Te types, and other really lulz thing was a ISFJ that was typed as INTJ at first lol


----------



## Greyhart

voodoodoll said:


> Alright, I'm just gonna go for it then.
> 
> Can childhood behaviour offer any insight into personality type? Because I've been having an existential crisis trying to figure this out for months and I'm wondering if thinking about how I was as a kid rather than continuing to overanalyse how I am now might offer that 'aha!' that I'm desperate for.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Yes, but there are multiple theories about kids and functions. I think around middle school would be helpful, though. I'm pretty much that + some adult wisdom now.



fair phantom said:


> reading shiny's thread makes me feel a bit like I'm in a Kafka novel.


I KNOW.

_____________

Mini Mushroom and Swiss Quinoa Cups - Iowa Girl Eats

Why do recipes have so many ingredients. Where do I get chicken broth. When will I be able to 3D print my food.


----------



## Vermillion

If folks on this thread are so astonished by @shinynotshiny receiving a typing of SEI/ISFJ, I think it would be nicer to stop by over there and counter some of the presented arguments rather than be here and assume all of us over there are inherently misunderstanding her personality. I would prefer that sort of clique-ish bias not be inculcated anywhere on the forum, in general. If you think we've all got it wrong, why don't you come by and redefine what we're getting wrong? That would be much more productive.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> An INTP who cried over math homework in school.


Oh, thank God. It wasn't just me.

I did the 80K socionics quiz once, sent it to an INTJ who is a fairly decent typist, but we didn't know one another well yet. She said, "You have a crapload of Si and Ne, and they're equal." Ultimately, though, she thought I was an STJ/NFP. Apparently my Te really came out to play in that questionnaire...



voodoodoll said:


> Can childhood behaviour offer any insight into personality type? Because I've been having an existential crisis trying to figure this out for months and I'm wondering if thinking about how I was as a kid rather than continuing to overanalyse how I am now might offer that 'aha!' that I'm desperate for.


I think it CAN, yes, but kids are so unstable and often heavily influenced by their environment that I think it's better to focus on your motivations in the present rather than on what could be inaccurate memories of childhood.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> About that, typing from a short amount of posts can fail epically. I've seen people being typed as Fe at first and then retyped as Te types, and other really lulz thing was a ISFJ that was typed as INTJ at first lol


If they want to believe I changed my answers to type a certain way, then I just have to sit here and laugh. Then again, they don't know me.


----------



## Immolate

Amaterasu said:


> If folks on this thread are so astonished by @_shinynotshiny_ receiving a typing of SEI/ISFJ, I think it would be nicer to stop by over there and counter some of the presented arguments rather than be here and assume all of us over there are inherently misunderstanding her personality. I would prefer that sort of clique-ish bias not be inculcated anywhere on the forum, in general. If you think we've all got it wrong, why don't you come by and redefine what we're getting wrong? That would be much more productive.


I welcome the discussion.


----------



## Greyhart

Amaterasu said:


> If folks on this thread are so astonished by @shinynotshiny receiving a typing of SEI/ISFJ, I think it would be nicer to stop by over there and counter some of the presented arguments rather than be here and assume all of us over there are inherently misunderstanding her personality. I would prefer that sort of clique-ish bias not be inculcated anywhere on the forum, in general. If you think we've all got it wrong, why don't you come by and redefine what we're getting wrong? That would be much more productive.


Everything is wrong. I think mainly that people took her attitude as wounded feeling. As I said she is always that terse and short even when she's joking.

Main reason I do not comment there because yes I am biased after 1000 pages. So I wanted to let the thread run from strangers' perspectives.


----------



## Persephone Soul

voodoodoll said:


> Alright, I'm just gonna go for it then.
> 
> Can childhood behaviour offer any insight into personality type? Because I've been having an existential crisis trying to figure this out for months and I'm wondering if thinking about how I was as a kid rather than continuing to overanalyse how I am now might offer that 'aha!' that I'm desperate for.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I feel your pain. I actually think this can really help steer you in the right direction, in the very least.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Everything is wrong. I think mainly that people took her attitude as wounded feeling. As I said she is always that terse and short even when she's joking.


Maybe you like me too much and it affects your reading of the questionnaire 

But that assumes you like me a lot.


----------



## wastethenight

shinynotshiny said:


> I think childhood experiences are important to consider, as well as the environment you grew up in and how it could have potentially affected your growth as a person (intellectual/emotional).
> 
> What behavior are you referring to?


An awful lot of 'make believe' mostly, I think. Like.. for a while I thought I was likely an INTP but I've read a few things about how Ti dom kids really love taking things apart and figuring out how they work, which I don't relate to. I liked puzzled sure but I wouldn't say I was particularly analytical 24/7. I spent most of my time (that I remember) pretending to be characters from whatever movie or book I was obsessed with at the moment. Like when I wanted obsessed with The Little Mermaid I'd stick both my legs into one side of pants so I could actually look like a mermaid, when I was obsessed with 101 Dalmatians I'd eat and drink everything out a bowl without utensils because that's how dogs did it. My favourite though - my mum finally explained to me why my childhood nickname was Rat. Apparently when I was three I told my dad I wanted to be Aladdin but because we didn't live on the street he couldn't call me a street rat, it had to be just rat. She said she was mega impressed I seemed to understand that young. And I was very intelligent and learned things quickly, which is possibly why I thought I had to be thinking dominate but... why all the fantasy then?


----------



## Greyhart

voodoodoll said:


> An awful lot of 'make believe' mostly, I think. Like.. for a while I thought I was likely an INTP but I've read a few things about how Ti dom kids really love taking things apart and figuring out how they work, which I don't relate to. I liked puzzled sure but I wouldn't say I was particularly analytical 24/7. I spent most of my time (that I remember) pretending to be characters from whatever movie or book I was obsessed with at the moment. Like when I wanted obsessed with The Little Mermaid I'd stick both my legs into one side of pants so I could actually look like a mermaid, when I was obsessed with 101 Dalmatians I'd eat and drink everything out a bowl without utensils because that's how dogs did it. My favourite though - my mum finally explained to me why my childhood nickname was Rat. Apparently when I was three I told my dad I wanted to be Aladdin but because we didn't live on the street he couldn't call me a street rat, it had to be just rat. She said she was mega impressed I seemed to understand that young. And I was very intelligent and learned things quickly, which is possibly why I thought I had to be thinking dominate but... why all the fantasy then?


Hmmm, well I definitely don't relate to it. Since I was a kid I liked things because I either wanted to understand how they work (Jaws, Alien, Jurassic Park) or I liked the idea of them (Vinnie the Pooh as talking animals). I used to make new characters for myself to insert into worlds I liked. The characters were usually slightly badass-er versions of me.

So your ways could be high Fe or Fi, I think?


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Actually I'm already coming around with it. shiny is just so different from ISFJ portrait I've built. So hard core. Like post-apocalyptic sort of ISFJ. I didn't see Fury Road yet but if Furiosa is ISFJ shiny would be that kind of ISFJ.


I'm so honored :tears_of_joy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Actually I'm already coming around with it. shiny is just so different from ISFJ portrait I've built. So hard core. Like post-apocalyptic sort of ISFJ. I didn't see Fury Road yet but if Furiosa is ISFJ shiny would be that kind of ISFJ.


https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/punk-cinderella


----------



## Immolate

@Amaterasu Which would you say is a better/more reliable source: The 16 Types, or Wikisocion?


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/punk-cinderella


those look like hipsters.  I'm thinking more of grime and grit and terminators.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Personally I use wikisocion and 16types at times for finding information, but in general I rely more on wikisocion. Model A and intertype are specially useful parts of that system.


----------



## wastethenight

Oswin said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure it's cognitive function related. Fantasy is a really, really common way for children to learn how to . . . exist. They try out new things so they learn what's possible and not possible, so they can try on different roles, etc. And because it's fun. I think every type probably had lots of childhood fantasies)
> That said, Ne would be the function I associate most with playing pretend, and Se the least.


I relate quite a bit to inferior Se I think so that makes sense. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> those look like hipsters.  I'm thinking more of grime and grit and terminators.


https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/post-apocalyptic-cinderella


----------



## Vermillion

Greyhart said:


> Actually I'm already coming around with it. shiny is just so different from ISFJ portrait I've built. So hard core. Like post-apocalyptic sort of ISFJ. I didn't see Fury Road yet but if Furiosa is ISFJ shiny would be that kind of ISFJ.


I want to say that ISFJs can be radically different from the pathetic stereotyping they undergo. They're not all cupcakes and cookies and little babies. I've met several ISFJs who are politely subversive people, make very interesting observations about the human condition, and have a fresh, dry, critical sort of humor. Those things, which probably contribute to the "vibe" of a person, are not disallowed to ISFJs. I mean, they aren't all stuck in the 50s or something. They're just as selfish and intelligent and sarcastic and trollish as all of us can be, but somehow the descriptions make them sound like obsessive grandmothers.



shinynotshiny said:


> @_Amaterasu_ Which would you say is a better/more reliable source: The 16 Types, or Wikisocion?


Wikisocion has a lot of what a learner would be looking for. 16types is wacky and trollish as a forum but has some very interesting articles in its archives. Some of those articles are overly complicated or explain needless stuff though. 

Start with Wikisocion for now, and avoid some of those "portraits" of male and female versions of the type, they can get biased and weirdly exaggerated. Use your discretion


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Greyhart said:


> Actually I'm already coming around with it. shiny is just so different from ISFJ portrait I've built. So hard core. Like post-apocalyptic sort of ISFJ. I didn't see Fury Road yet but if Furiosa is ISFJ shiny would be that kind of ISFJ.


I can imagine something like an ISFJ that lived in a setting like Orwell's 1984 and became so broken that doesn't resemble a typical one XD


----------



## fair phantom

Amaterasu said:


> I want to say that ISFJs can be radically different from the pathetic stereotyping they undergo. They're not all cupcakes and cookies and little babies. I've met several ISFJs who are politely subversive people, make very interesting observations about the human condition, and have a fresh, dry, critical sort of humor. Those things, which probably contribute to the "vibe" of a person, are not disallowed to ISFJs. I mean, they aren't all stuck in the 50s or something. They're just as selfish and intelligent and sarcastic and trollish as all of us can be, but somehow the descriptions make them sound like obsessive grandmothers.


I think we have a couple of those around here. ^_^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Why can't this video work as evidence that Shiny is Te/Fi






This video tells me so much about so much here.


----------



## Greyhart

@shinynotshiny typing you as ISFJ still breaks my mind tbh. But questionnaire does have feeler-introvert-fe impression. Wow I got headache.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Greyhart said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ typing you as ISFJ still breaks my mind tbh. But questionnaire does have feeler-introvert-fe impression. Wow I got headache.


I will wait and see if the questionnaire stuff matches with the things that I've seen here. I'm only sure that I got the Pi dom part right, but the rest can be weird at times. Also this could confirm that type can vary wildly on a surface level (heck, I'm also some sort of anomaly so shiny being one too won't be impossible)


----------



## Greyhart

Blue Flare said:


> I will wait and see if the questionnaire stuff matches with the things that I've seen here. I'm only sure that I got the Pi dom part right, but the rest can be weird at times. Also this could confirm that type can vary wildly on a surface level (heck, I'm also some sort of anomaly so shiny being one too won't be impossible)


What I took from this is that's it I am Fi.


----------



## Immolate

@Amaterasu @Greyhart @fair phantom @alittlebear

Alright, working with the info on this page:



> Fi as a demonstrative (8th) function (SEI and IEI)
> 
> The individual is quite adept at understanding the interactions in personal bonds between two individuals, even in the absence of an obvious external emotional expression; but he is inclined to regard them as of lesser importance, and less interesting, than the broader emotional interactions in the context of a larger group. Moreover, those personal bonds are perceived as situational and dynamic rather than static.


I value my individual relationship with someone, specifically a very close friend or partner, more than I value my relationships with a group. When speaking about diversity and acceptance, I'm coming from a place where I want society to be more receptive to people and experiences that are not the norm; in other words, people who are LGBTQ, people who are a racial and/or ethnic minorities in the country they live in, experiences like mental illness, and so on. I want this kind of acceptance because I fit into these categories (gay, Hispanic, major depressive/potentially bipolar). At the end of the day, I want a more accommodating society that makes my life, and the life of people close to me, easier.




> Fi as a mobilizing (6th) function (ILI and SLI)
> 
> The individual longs for establishing stable personal relationships with other individuals based on mutual trust and understanding where deeper and private feelings and experiences can be easily shared. However, the individual lacks the initiative to establish such relationships and usually expects others to make gestures in that area, admiring those who do so. In the context of extroverted ethics (Fe) as a vulnerable function, it should be emphasized that these types especially value emotional bonds where feelings go unsaid between partners, and are simply "understood."


The way I see it, a relationship without trust isn't a relationship at all, and throughout the years I've found that trust is a hard thing to come by. I am continually disappointed in my romantic relationships, or even sexual relationships, because there isn't the level of trust I desire. More often than not, I clash with my partners because they feel I don't express my emotions well enough. I have an easier time having sex than I do kissing someone, because I consider kissing more intimate and expressive than sex. (Yeah, really.) Something like a casual kiss on the lips or cheek has no other purpose than to convey affection, and I have a hard time doing so. It's much easier for me when my partner understands that I have great depth of feeling for them despite my reticence and limited outward physical affection. This is even a problem with family members because I don't hug or kiss them on a regular basis; in fact, we mostly do that on holidays such as birthdays. Even now I continue to have conversations with them where they accuse me of not loving them as parents or even people.

In terms of starting relationships, I mentioned in the original questionnaire that I much prefer being approached, especially by a person with a more dominant/assertive/extroverted personality. It takes the awkwardness away from me and I enjoy the dynamic their personality offers.

-

If I've misunderstood the function and its role as demonstrative vs mobilizing, I'd very much like to know and have some guidance.


----------



## Dangerose

voodoodoll said:


> I relate quite a bit to inferior Se I think so that makes sense. Thanks for the input.


K)
If you want more input on your type feel free to post here with more info/questions, this is a good thread for getting your type sorted out if you don't mind a bit of derail)


----------



## Persephone Soul

@shinynotshiny

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/60235713742929847/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/60235713742929844/


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> Why can't this video work as evidence that Shiny is Te/Fi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video tells me so much about so much here.


This was GREAT! I NEED to get back into this. Man, so many shows I am behind on! Being a parent/wife SUCKS! lol


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> @_shinynotshiny_
> 
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/60235713742929847/
> 
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/60235713742929844/


Thank you :love_heart: ~

But I would cover up more :glee:


----------



## wastethenight

Oswin said:


> K)
> If you want more input on your type feel free to post here with more info/questions, this is a good thread for getting your type sorted out if you don't mind a bit of derail)


Derail is fine with me, I just want to figure this out really. I'm not sure where to start with questions or info though.

I guess I could elaborate on why I think I have inferior Se? For a while I didn't think I did because I usually see it being attributed to behaviour like casual sex or drinking, which I don't relate to at all. However I can overindulge in other things. I'm definitely an over eater, I love loud music, love concerts, love theme parks (you ever seen The Inbetweeners? There's an episode where they all go to Thorpe Park and literally all Will cares about is going on the roller coaster. Very me.) I'm mesmerized by landscapes like mountains and oceans, etc. I have rather expensive/picky taste when it comes to things like clothes and technology. I love touching things too. I'm always touching things I like when I'm shopping. Sensory experiences can also get distracting for me though, like if I'm listening to my music loud but then want to read something or fully respond to something I need to shut it off because I feel like it muddles my thinking and concentration. I feel quite disconnected from my environment a lot the time too. I can shut out mess quite easily unless I really decide to focus on it and do something about it. I'm quite clumsy and afraid of getting hurt all the time. Sometimes when I'm out I almost forget I need to look for traffic or wait for the light to change before I cross the street. Also I've yet to get my drivers license even though I know it'll do me SO MUCH GOOD to have one because driving intimidates the hell out of me. There's too much to pay attention to at one time and it's like... I don't know how to explain this but seeing things and _seeing things_ aren't always the same thing to me? Like I can look in my rearview mirror and see there's a car behind me, but translating that into a useful okay this is where there are in reality in comparison to me is...hard.


----------



## Immolate

@Entropic I can't even conceive of showing my face to a bunch of strangers. But maybe I will.



Also, guys, I feel like I'm dying. Chest is tight and it's hard to breathe. Never felt it before. If I die I just want you yo know it's been fun~


----------



## Entropic

fair phantom said:


> I'm trying to answer the 80q socionics questionnaire but some of the questions confuse me. I fear I am going to wind up looking stupid. :uncomfortableness:


There is no right or wrong way to answer the questions. Every answer is as valid. It is the subjective factor how everyone answers differently that help us type you in the first place.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Entropic said:


> fair phantom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to answer the 80q socionics questionnaire but some of the questions confuse me. I fear I am going to wind up looking stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no right or wrong way to answer the questions. Every answer is as valid. It is the subjective factor how everyone answers differently that help us type you in the first place.
Click to expand...

According to your video, I related to Te (and the small part of Fi you mentioned). Could you take a look at my 7Q questionaire? See what you get. It's very short.

http://personalitycafe.com/#/forumsite/20588/topics/582794?page=1


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> @Entropic I can't even conceive of showing my face to a bunch of strangers. But maybe I will.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, guys, I feel like I'm dying. Chest is tight and it's hard to breathe. Never felt it before. If I die I just want you yo know it's been fun~



Wait, whoa. Are you okay now?


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> Wait, whoa. Are you okay now?


Honestly, I think I fucked up my meds yesterday. Last time I did that I slipped into a bit of a manic episode. I think chest pain is preferable. I should be okay if nothing serious has happened yet. It's been hours. Thank you for asking 

By the way, are you planning on filling out a questionnaire?


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny !!! I hope your chest pain goes away soon.



Entropic said:


> There is no right or wrong way to answer the questions. Every answer is as valid. It is the subjective factor how everyone answers differently that help us type you in the first place.


Thank you. I just wish I wasn't so confused about what some of the questions are _asking_. I'll figure it out. Or not. Either way it could be enlightening. (assuming I finish and post it)


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Thank you. I just wish I wasn't so confused about what some of the questions are _asking_. I'll figure it out. Or not. Either way it could be enlightening. (assuming I finish and post it)


Or you could ask us what you're confused by. After all, making use of your resources is good. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> Honestly, I think I fucked up my meds yesterday. Last time I did that I slipped into a bit of a manic episode. I think chest pain is preferable. I should be okay if nothing serious has happened yet. It's been hours. Thank you for asking
> 
> By the way, are you planning on filling out a questionnaire?


That sounded like asthma and panic attack. O_O



SugarPlum said:


> According to your video, I related to Te (and the small part of Fi you mentioned). Could you take a look at my 7Q questionaire? See what you get. It's very short.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/#/forumsite/20588/topics/582794?page=1


So INFP or ISTJ?



shinynotshiny said:


> I'm out. I say this in case @Amaterasu graces me with a response tonight. I'll be dead to the world.


She be sleeping probably.


----------



## fair phantom

@SugarPlum do you think your Fi/Fe confusion might be due to being a 4? I think 4 can make an Fe-user seem like they use Fi.


----------



## Immolate

@fair phantom Thank you for wishing me well 

@Greyhart I used to experience a lot of chest pain related to panic attacks in the past (I didn't know they were panic attacks until years after the fact), and this isn't anything like it. I'm truly thinking it's related to meds. I see no other explanation, and I've been a bit inconsistent with my schedule. I forget to take them some days. Withdrawal is such fun :cheers2:


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Also, guys, I feel like I'm dying. Chest is tight and it's hard to breathe. Never felt it before. If I die I just want you yo know it's been fun~


Are you getting heart palpitations? If so, try to recline with your head propped up on a few pillows, drink water very slowly and do breathing exercises. It could also be blood pressure, so if you haven't eaten, try to find some protein, preferably combined with a bit of fruit sugar (fruit and nuts are best). Stay lying down until it goes off in case you get light-headed.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> Are you getting heart palpitations? If so, try to recline with your head propped up on a few pillows, drink water very slowly and do breathing exercises. It could also be blood pressure, so if you haven't eaten, try to find some protein, preferably combined with a bit of fruit sugar (fruit and nuts are best). Stay lying down until it goes off in case you get light-headed.


Thank you, I'll do just that because I'm woozy at the moment


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> @fair phantom Thank you for wishing me well
> 
> @Greyhart I used to experience a lot of chest pain related to panic attacks in the past (I didn't know they were panic attacks until years after the fact), and this isn't anything like it. I'm truly thinking it's related to meds. I see no other explanation, and I've been a bit inconsistent with my schedule. I forget to take them some days. Withdrawal is such fun :cheers2:


*(I didn't know they were panic attacks until years after the fact)* same.

*I'm truly thinking it's related to meds.* Wow, scary.

Also about your thread, I was right to not stick into it :brocoli: I wouldn't contribute "properly" since I use a mishmash of systems rather than separate socionics as a different system.

I had a dream where I was told I am definitely ENFP or even INFJ. :concern:


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Thank you, I'll do just that because I'm woozy at the moment


I hope you feel better soon! Make sure you have a phone near you just in case it gets worse. Even if you feel sick, it's best to try and eat something.

(I had a blood sugar moment on my own in Japan, thanks to hypoglycemia, and it was the worst. I thought I was dying and couldn't contact anyone - bar an acquaintance who then got to witness hypoglycemic crying/yawning/twitching in its full glory.)


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> Are you getting heart palpitations? If so, try to recline with your head propped up on a few pillows, drink water very slowly and do breathing exercises. It could also be blood pressure, so if you haven't eaten, try to find some protein, preferably combined with a bit of fruit sugar (fruit and nuts are best). Stay lying down until it goes off in case you get light-headed.


Yeah, usually my first act when I get heart palpitations is to eat a banana. Potassium + natural sugars, a wonderful combination.

Yes @Greyhart , you were right to stay out of it. :black_eyed:


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> I hope you feel better soon! Make sure you have a phone near you just in case it gets worse. Even if you feel sick, it's best to try and eat something.
> 
> (I had a blood sugar moment on my own in Japan, thanks to hypoglycemia, and it was the worst. I thought I was dying and couldn't contact anyone - bar an acquaintance who then got to witness hypoglycemic crying/yawning/twitching in its full glory.)


hypoglycemia is no joke. I had a seizure because of it once. 0/10 do not recommend.


----------



## owlet

fair phantom said:


> Yeah, usually my first act when I get heart palpitations is to eat a banana. Potassium + natural sugars, a wonderful combination.
> 
> Yes @_Greyhart_ , you were right to stay out of it. :black_eyed:


I'm a bit of an idiot with my blood pressure and drink caffeine, so I have to make sure I have a lot of protein to balance it out... Bananas are one of the best things for a boost, I just don't like them so I forgot to suggest those :dispirited:

Haha, as I said on the thread, I find more opinions helpful over a select few - it's a broader field that I can then work through and examine on my own.


----------



## owlet

fair phantom said:


> hypoglycemia is no joke. I had a seizure because of it once. 0/10 do not recommend.


Oh no, sorry to hear that! My sister had one and had to be tested for epilepsy because we didn't know what it was. It was pretty scary... (especially as if I hadn't caught her as she fell, she would have smacked her head on a chair).


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> Oh no, sorry to hear that! My sister had one and had to be tested for epilepsy because we didn't know what it was. It was pretty scary... (especially as if I hadn't caught her as she fell, she would have smacked her head on a chair).


It was good you were there! Scary.

I just sort of went limp and just fell to the ground before I really started seizing. I was so freaked out, but my boyfriend's mother said she had one when she was younger due to low blood sugar and so that was probably the issue (since I already know I've had hypoglycemia problems). I've been more attentive and I haven't had one since.


----------



## 68097

Me, on the fact that shiny might be an ISFJ:


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

I woke up sane today and finished my 21Q! Hey, I did something!

Also, hi thread.


Also, reading the last few posts....what type doesn't notice plot holes?


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> @Gray Romantic, @angelcat, it's funny, I seem to have a high tolerance for plot-holes, as apparently, two of the shows I've watched recently have plot-holes out the wazoo, yet I don't seem to notice them. Probably just too sucked into the spectacle, tbh.
> 
> To answer my own question, a story to me is greatest when it explores and deconstructs concepts, and allows me to emotionally connect to the characters, but not forcing it down your throat. :happy:


SJs need to get things done, SPs don't mind just as much


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> Wow so like stuff happened
> 
> I do that kind of thing sometimes too, when it's really obvious. I don't have an opinion on most people's types though. Too much I don't know about them. And I tend to just assume that people aren't interested so I don't really evangelise either. Although it'd be fun to discuss in real life too.
> 
> Yup I think they do say the test is biased towards N to start off with. Plus when you simplify the whole P vs. J thing to "are you organised or messy?" I think people are more likely to lean J, because duh even just being an adult means you have to have some level of organisation. And as an IxxP I seek _inner control_, and to me my inner world is pretty much the most important thing, so I think that's why I initally got J.
> 
> And compared to ExxP's I am a control freak.
> 
> Oh yes... I can understand that they need to create some positive impressions of introversion because people still confuse it with lack of social skills and just needing to be dragged out of one's shell. But I don't like that in order for introversion to look good, they try to imply that extroverts are shallow and sheep-like. Soon we'll need a movement to make extroversion cool again!
> 
> You two explain it better than I do. Except I'm not as thorough as shiny. It's a standard I try to hold myself up to, but I'm too lazy and easily distracted to really ever uphold it. One reason why I don't enjoy debating.
> 
> I tend to judge people by how they treat objects (living and otherwise) that they see as "beneath" them. So someone who holds themselves up to be a Good Person Who Is the Last Bastion Of All That Is Holy who also finds bullfighting entertaining (or at least not problematic) is Not A Good Person in my book. And I judge the heck out of customers who give me long spiels about how badly they mistreat the products I sell them. I know it's probably exaggeration in order to make me not want to sell them expensive things but I don't care. If you deliberately throw objects around, or don't care enough to even make an effort to treat them better (intentions count too!) then I'm sorry, I was a better person than you when I was 5.
> 
> Stuff like this sometimes makes me think I'm an ISTJ. Pity I'm so feelsy though.


I do enjoy discussing possible types for people, but only so far as they discuss it and don't start taking it too seriously. It's fun to debate, but not to argue.

I know! I just found that I'm very organised in my head and I know where everything is, generally (although I do appear to have lost my hat), but my desk is 'organised chaos' and there are stacks of books all over my floor. Still they're organised and I don't do things like waiting until the last minute to complete assignments or anything.

True, introverts get a hard time in the real world, but I don't like discrimination of any variety on- or offline (as I'm sure very few people do) or that thing were people think to make one thing less discriminated against, you have to discriminate against the opposite thing.... Weird thinking.

Ah, well if people take debating too seriously, it ends up being all about facts and figures and who read which article etc. and that's quite boring. I prefer just sharing and challenging ideas.

I do the same thing! If someone has the choice to do or not do something, if they do things like hurt animals that will define them in my eyes (actually with hurting animals, there's no excuse and they are instantly the worst kind of person to me).

Haha, my friends wondered if I was an ISTJ for a while, but apparently I'm too... monologuey about things that bother me.



ElliCat said:


> Me too, but I can understand if people just want a few expert opinions. Which is why I won't be replying over there. I mish-mash the systems inside my head like @_Greyhart_, who, incidentally, is still the most ENTP-ish ENTP who ever ENTPed so change your bloody label back, woman!


Haha, I just reply wherever I feel like it on typing threads, but get weirdly intimidated by actual topics... (I'm so happy @Greyhart is back to ENTP!)




Greyhart said:


> Guys I got new-old mirror from my parents' flat and went to take a shower and THE WATER PRESSURE DISAPPEARED WHEN I WAS ALL SOAPY. And when there's not strong stream gas boiler does not heat the water. So I tried to continue shower under stream about as strong as the one from the fountain of peeing boy. It was impossible. So I sat in the shower and soapy for over an hour until water was back.


Low water pressure is one of the worst things ever. The last student house I was in had almost no water pressure, so each shower took more than 40 minutes and you had to scrub your head to get to shampoo out. :dispirited: The wosr thing was, the downstairs shower was fine, but it was used by another housemate and I have a weird thing about perceiving bathrooms to be unhygienic if someone who is messy uses them... (and she was VERY messy.)



Gray Romantic said:


> Yeah guys, I'm an INTP right now. Oops.
> 
> lol manual labor???? _Ew_. This needs to be fixed, @_alittlebear_ @_Barakiel_ @_SugarPlum_ @_laurie17_ post away, do not disappoint me.


Haha, excuse my lack of posting. I just got back from the vet and my cat's eye is not infected, but just irritated... *the sound of money washing down the drain* I'm glad I took him though, because he got a check up and everything's fine.



ElliCat said:


> Who said second-hand mirrors were bad luck?!?!?!!! :whoa:


*screaming*


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Entropic said:


> I stayed away from it because it's too lacking in structure, yes, but that one comment by Bugs annoyed me, especially given the entire context of the post which made it so explicitly clear it couldn't be anything else but Fe being expressed. You'd think Bugs being an ENTP would recognize that better than he did.


...Yeah I have to say, ESTP is honestly a better fit than ENTP. I don't see it either. Greyhart is the only person here I would consider ENTP.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Discussing someone in the third person, giving unwarranted input on his type, plus him not being here to speak for himself... is, well... rude. :/


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> SJs need to get things done, SPs don't mind just as much


Isn't it the other way around, SPs are the ones who like to do rather than think? :wink:


----------



## Greyhart

I just realized Bear is back to being a tree.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> ...Yeah I have to say, ESTP is honestly a better fit than ENTP. I don't see it either. Greyhart is the only person here I would consider ENTP.


OK, I tried to keep out of religion debate since I find it redundant but WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT? I'm burning with curiosity now.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I just realized Bear is back to being a tree.


/quite confused/


----------



## Greyhart

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I woke up sane today and finished my 21Q! Hey, I did something!


For the past two days it's like this thread is spreading its tentacles into socionics parts.



alittlebear said:


> /quite confused/


The avatar! It's the tree you had!


----------



## Adena

Greyhart said:


> For the past two days it's like this thread is spreading its tentacles into socionics parts.
> 
> 
> The avatar! It's the tree you had!


We're branching out, keeping abstract of our ignorance.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> For the past two days it's like this thread is spreading its tentacles into socionics parts.
> 
> 
> The avatar! It's the tree you had!


I have had this avatar for a while now, dear Grey.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

So yesterday was hazy.

Warning: Wall of text


* *




There is a massive problem I have seen repeated on this thread consistently. I have thought about creating a separate thread about this phenomenon, as it is pertinent on this very forum in general and not exclusive to our "clan," which is what people are starting to view us as. Interesting. 

You need to remember that type is the opening of a door and not the closing of one. Many people view typing as "Well... this is me, this is what I can do, and this is what I suck at". You know what? When I first received an ISFJ typing, I absolutely bulked! I did not want to be one. @shinynotshiny... I get the impression you have stereotypes on your brain. Not all ISFJs are Cinderella. Nor do they all bake pies or sing 80's charity songs. I was the outcast in school. People bullied me because they thought I was weird. I had trouble making friends. Today, people consider me smart, creative, insightful, and wise. I write poetry. I love Emerson. I had an emo and goth phase, and I dress eclectically. I like to learn and I like biology. I'm interested in Buddhism. Part of why I want to move to Portland is so I can engage in activist events and protests. The stereotypes of SFJ seem to negate all of these traits. And yet they are behavior based traits. Typing by behavior is an awful idea.

I think many of the awful stereotypes of an SFJ are rooted in this very idea. We get our neat four letter code and... that's what we are. Case closed. Stop the presses. ...No, keep investigating. There are more things to report. Discovering I was an ISFJ ended up being a nice finding when I was open to it. And I am going to do whatever I want and behave however I'd like, and I'm not going to think "Oh well... I use Fe so therefore I can't logically reason so I'm not going to participate in debate anymore". When do that, we narrow our potential and further findings about ourselves are stunted. There are always things to learn about ourselves. Do not let typology murder such growth. ISFJ does not mean you're being you wrong. Be you as much as you like because people view typology so fucking narrowly that it almost provides a disservice to the theory.

Also... the folks on the socionics thread were not the only ones who suspected you may be an ISFJ. Arkigos.... subtly hinted it. He said you strike him as a thinker and a sensor, and that he had Te on the table, but he got the impression you like to organize the group, and you appear nitpicky (Fe-Ti), but STP didn't seem likely. ISFJ definitely was on his mind. Read his posts carefully. That fucker is subtle as hell. 

If we all quit taking typology so personally and open our minds to the way that we perceive typology, honestly, this experience would be better for everyone.
@Greyhart Don't worry about your typing fuck-ups so much. Shiny is very guarded, so it was easy to mistake her as an Fi type. I keep seeing "No... I made a mistake... I blow at typing." The most renowned typologist of all the land would not be infallible. No one is infallible. 

I don't know. The rigidity of typing and the "I am open to new perspectives" attitude which is contradicted when new perspectives is provided, and the way they are viewed as neat boxes (actually, coffin is a better term, because that practice is practically death), is beginning to irritate me.


----------



## Immolate

@_hoopla_ It's a joke, one I thought was obvious.

Honestly, Hoops, sometimes it feels like you go on these ego trips and it's exceptionally annoying. You value your Ti, we get it, and I don't need you explaining what I've already gathered and accepted myself.


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I have had this avatar for a while now, dear Grey.












I am very observant.

____________________________

Gift from cousin.









SPACE BATTLES!!


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> @_hoopla_ It's a joke, one I thought was obvious.


I know. But I get the sense that it is subconsciously related to wariness towards being an ISFJ. I experienced it, and I would like to find a way to eradicate this problem. That's why I mention it. If I was wrong in my opinion, I apologize.

I'm glad you've accepted it. However that problem certainly needs addressing. It's too common on this forum in general, and it's certainly not void in this thread in particular.


----------



## fair phantom

@hoopla and you did address it. more than once. at this point it is turning into repeated lectures and I don't think people respond well to that. I know I don't.

ETA: for what it is worth I now see @shinynotshiny as an ISTJ in mbti and think it is _possible_ that she is an ISFp under socionics, since evidently the creative role function can pretty much go unused, something I was unaware of.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> I know. But I get the sense that it is subconsciously related to wariness towards being an ISFJ. I experienced it, and I would like to find a way to eradicate this problem. That's why I mention it. If I was wrong in my opinion, I apologize.
> 
> I'm glad you've accepted it. However that problem certainly needs addressing. It's too common on this forum in general, and it's certainly not void in this thread in particular.


I'm not insecure about being ISFJ the way you still appear to be. The entire shock of the matter was my being typed Fe over Fi when I feel that's the opposite of who I am. Si, Ne, whatever. Those I can accept changing or flipping around, but I've had to reevaluate my relationship with my heart and beliefs, something that's deeply personal to me. Thankfully, I had a laugh about it all throughout last night, so I ask you to stop.

As for avatars. I've rotated my avatar from Motoko, Ron Swanson, Spock, Glittery Spock, Glittery Evil Spock, a deer, and now Cinderella. If you find it personally offensive, I can consider something else.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> @hoopla and you did address it. more than once. at this point it is turning into repeated lectures and I don't think people respond well to that. I know I don't.


That is true.

On the other hand, what has been provided is fair.

Nothing preachy, nothing unreasoned, nothing unethical. And people are still acting like children.

I should get off by soapbox. But if "repeated lectures" bother you, understand that repeated denying valid reasoning also irritates me.

That's all I have left to say about this. I just wish typology wasn't a hierarchy, and I certainly wish it was less personal.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Gift from cousin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPACE BATTLES!!


Space battles are so neat. Do you play FTL?
@_hoopla_ I think most people were being tongue-in-cheek about shiny's ISFJ status, including shiny. I know it often happens in other bits of the forums, that kind of stereotyping, and it sticks with you for a while after you enter the MBTI zone because of how much it's spread. Still, it's important not to take it so seriously that it prevents people from feeling that they can joke about it. MBTI isn't hard science, nor is it a definitive system. It's just fun and interesting to try and figure out, a sort of puzzle with no pressure behind it.

Also not sure what this 'clique' thing is about. I don't like that term (I am repulsed by that term). I see this thread as open to everyone who might be interested in participating and just having a chat about typology. It's not exclusive, it's just that few people have either stuck with it so long or have tried to participate, which is fine - everyone has their right to choose how they spend their leisure time online. And that's what it is: relaxation.

ETA: Basically just contextualise the conversation (and the people having it) to judge if it's a joke or stereotyping for real.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Honestly that is the greatest depiction of Si ever.
> 
> Of course, when in a bad mood.
> 
> How I see Si is a Jack in the Box. You crank the handle and the most beautiful sound you have ever heard chimes and beckons you to love life and everything it offers. Then, all of a sudden, a scary head pops out. You were not prepared. You were trying to process the music... and that Jack in the Box is now wrong. You shun Jack in the Boxes forever.
> 
> Jung actually discussed how objects can have a mystical, benevolent quality, but can quickly be eschewed when deemed benevolent. Everything is either wonderful or disgusting. That's exactly how I see Si.
> 
> That of course is only one facet of Si. Si is more complex than people realize. It's much easier to shrink it down to memory.


Interesting, but I don't quite understand it. Could you elaborate?


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Interesting, but I don't quite understand it. Could you elaborate?


I've never been able to understand it, and I'm Si-dom eaceful:

Also interested in an explanation.

Or. Idealizing the world and your relationship with the world, only to find disappointment because it doesn't live up to your Si impressions and instead repels you?

Even then, I don't understand how my own impressions repel me, or if they do. I don't have any monsters or jack-in-the-boxes around.


----------



## 68097

hoopla said:


> Honestly that is the greatest depiction of Si ever.
> 
> Of course, when in a bad mood.
> 
> How I see Si is a Jack in the Box. You crank the handle and the most beautiful sound you have ever heard chimes and beckons you to love life and everything it offers. Then, all of a sudden, a scary head pops out. You were not prepared. You were trying to process the music... and that Jack in the Box is now wrong. You shun Jack in the Boxes forever.
> 
> Jung actually discussed how objects can have a mystical, benevolent quality, but can quickly be eschewed when deemed benevolent. Everything is either wonderful or disgusting. That's exactly how I see Si.
> 
> That of course is only one facet of Si. Si is more complex than people realize. It's much easier to shrink it down to memory.


I completely understand, but... I'm not sure how to articulate it in a way that will enlighten others. 

Perhaps this is a manifestation of my Si:

Either I am drawn to the object or repulsed by it; and if I cannot personalize it in this manner, then I want nothing to do with it. The things I love, I seek to make mine, to internalize them, to allow them to become part of my greater sense of identity, and all else is banished and abandoned. 

One other nuance of Si, unfortunately, is a lack of reality. I see this in Si's all the time, where reality -- actual reality -- is displaced by personal myth, or the way they WANT to see the object. Thus, an unattractive person becomes the most handsome person they have ever seen in their mind, because they love that person. Or totally amoral and awful behavior is ignored or romanticized out of a lack of ability to see reality, to separate the archetype from the myth and find the truth. Sansa Stark comes to mind as an example -- she sees Joffrey not for who he is, but who she wants him to be; she makes him into the image she wants to behold, which is in no way drawn from who he actually is. Outsiders, even Si users, can see the reality the Si-user themselves cannot, but are blind to their own projections in their own life. (Until they realize their view is subjective -- and then, in my case, all my suppositions are brought under a magnifying glass and immediately seen as suspect. Do I remember the truth, or an impression?)

A line from the recent _Cinderella_ comes to mind -- she saw the world not as it is, but as it could be. In a sense, we are repulsed by reality, and hate it, because it is not how it OUGHT to be.


----------



## owlet

hoopla said:


> @_laurie17_ I have a steam. Honestly.. I got one out of friend requests and just binged on Humongous entertainment games. I'm not much of a gamer.
> 
> If I had the funds however... I might be.
> 
> I want to play Five Nights at Freddy's so badly.


So far, my sister and I have Braid and FTL, plus maybe two puzzle games. Five Nights at Freddy's looks pretty cool! I've managed to avoid seeing too much of it. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it though, as I'm on Linux...



Greyhart said:


> I do have steam Steam Community :: Horns & Hoofs but it's probably better not to share. I'll wait for -75% sale and ask my cousin.


Haha, okay!





angelcat said:


> A line from the recent _Cinderella_ comes to mind -- she saw the world not as it is, but as it could be. In a sense, we are repulsed by reality, and hate it, because it is not how it OUGHT to be.


This is what I was trying to get at with my fiddling with perceiving function descriptions - that Si is the 'should be' function which carries preconceived ideas and expectations around about how things 'should be'. I was trying to work each function down to a simplistic core to make them simpler, but I'm not sure if it worked or not (if you're interested, or @shinynotshiny, the topic is in the Cognitive Functions forum, where I've asked for feedback/input etc.).


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I completely understand, but... I'm not sure how to articulate it in a way that will enlighten others.
> 
> Perhaps this is a manifestation of my Si:
> 
> Either I am drawn to the object or repulsed by it; and if I cannot personalize it in this manner, then I want nothing to do with it. The things I love, I seek to make mine, to internalize them, to allow them to become part of my greater sense of identity, and all else is banished and abandoned.
> 
> One other nuance of Si, unfortunately, is a lack of reality. I see this in Si's all the time, where reality -- actual reality -- is displaced by personal myth, or the way they WANT to see the object. Thus, an unattractive person becomes the most handsome person they have ever seen in their mind, because they love that person. Or totally amoral and awful behavior is ignored or romanticized out of a lack of ability to see reality, to separate the archetype from the myth and find the truth. Sansa Stark comes to mind as an example -- she sees Joffrey not for who he is, but who she wants him to be; she makes him into the image she wants to behold, which is in no way drawn from who he actually is. Outsiders, even Si users, can see the reality the Si-user themselves cannot, but are blind to their own projections in their own life. (Until they realize their view is subjective -- and then, in my case, all my suppositions are brought under a magnifying glass and immediately seen as suspect. Do I remember the truth, or an impression?)
> 
> A line from the recent _Cinderella_ comes to mind -- she saw the world not as it is, but as it could be. In a sense, we are repulsed by reality, and hate it, because it is not how it OUGHT to be.


I'm still having a hard time relating and it's ... frustrating isn't the right word. There's no word.

I know that, for me, concepts like love and trust are idealized. Love is full disclosure and full acceptance. Trust is harder for me to define because it trumps even love. You expect the two to go hand in hand, but it often isn't the case, and I'm fully aware most people can't embody such complete love and trust. In that sense, I have no expectations but I try all the same, leading to eventual disappointment because relationships, whether platonic or romantic, lack a certain kind of depth. At times I see no point in pursuing them altogether because I know I won't get anything out of them in the long-run. So, then, is this in line with what you're talking about?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> Interesting, but I don't quite understand it. Could you elaborate?


The metaphor relies on how children are typically enlightened by the music elicited when the crank is turned, yet panic when the head pops out. It is the most hated toy in the world. Parents are mean.

See, Si is just the absence of reality. This is why so many people mistype strong Si users as N types. It is very easy to mistake an absence of reality as antagonism of the sensory. Si is deeply in touch with the sensory... their own sensory. They eschew the objective sensory and are therefore out of touch with it. They can't keep up. It moves too quickly for Si to process.

Si is not big picture. Si is the forest in the trees. And these details are deeply preserved. Si is very in tune with them, and that's why objective reality is often shunned. It is accepted when it is processed, but it takes awhile. Si will love the music, but then something pops up that hasn't yet been processed, so time is needed to accept it. If it ruins the music, the music is hated, when before the music was loved because it was so personal to Si. Maybe over time, Si will finally accept that new thing that tainted the music and the music will finally be restored.

So perhaps Si just needs time to process the head that pops out of the Jack in the Box that they eschewed. Maybe eventually... they'll enjoy the Jack in the Box again.

This is the only way I really know how to explain it. The head of the jack in the box is not how it should be. It should remain a music box, so it's viewed as wrong and disgusting; a cacophony, when before it was a magnum opus. Over time, within processing, the head of the jack in the box may eventually be appreciated.

Sorry if it still sounds like jargon.
@angelcat Beautifully put. My only hang-up is some of what you mentioned looked like Fe to me... but for the most part that's a great depiction of Si.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm still having a hard time relating and it's ... frustrating isn't the right word. There's no word.
> 
> I know that, for me, concepts like love and trust are idealized. Love is full disclosure and full acceptance. Trust is harder for me to define because it trumps even love. You expect the two to go hand in hand, but it often isn't the case, and I'm fully aware most people can't embody such complete love and trust. In that sense, I have no expectations but I try all the same, leading to eventual disappointment because relationships, whether platonic or romantic, lack a certain kind of depth. At times I see no point in pursuing them altogether because I know I won't get anything out of them in the long-run. So, then, is this in line with what you're talking about?


I think that is Si, yes, in the sense that your expectation is that it will fail, because the past has set a clear precedent for failure in knowing that no one can live up to an insanely high ideal. 

Si, somehow, grasps the idea of reality, in the sense that it knows how the world works. Sometimes this is superseded by idealism but in Si-heavy types, we merely accept it, and expect it to unfold as it often does. This seems counter-productive to our desire to push away from it, but it also makes us more accepting of that which fits into our preconception.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I think that is Si, yes, in the sense that your expectation is that it will fail, because the past has set a clear precedent for failure in knowing that no one can live up to an insanely high ideal.
> 
> Si, somehow, grasps the idea of reality, in the sense that it knows how the world works. Sometimes this is superseded by idealism but in Si-heavy types, we merely accept it, and expect it to unfold as it often does. This seems counter-productive to our desire to push away from it, but it also makes us more accepting of that which fits into our preconception.


It's not so much about the past because I've never believed, wanted, or seen myself with a partner in the long-term. When I try, it's because why not. Aside from this, though, I can't really think of anything else I've idealized or felt repelled by.


----------



## fair phantom

@angelcat @hoopla

Interesting. Thank you.


----------



## Vermillion

@shinynotshiny

I see you mentioned me a bunch of times with quotes of how you relate to specific functions in specific roles. I think you're starting off on the wrong step. Snippets like that are only properly understandable within the context of the entire model of functions, intertype relations and interaction styles. When you isolate parts of yourself from the get go to relate to paragraphs, you lose out on seeing the holistic picture of your type. I wouldn't recommend that to any Socionics beginner. Absorb the definitions of the functions first, before seeing where they lie in you.

That said, I'd like to clarify some parts in your reply:

a) the paragraph about xLI and tertiary Fi talks about how they need trust and commitment in their relationships or something, and how they need to form personal bonds. That formulation is shoddy, I think. Wanting trust and personal connection is human. But the reason it has been put there is because ILIs and SLIs have Fi in the tertiary position and because of that, the times they do feel confident enough to understand and pursue relationships, they have a tendency towards being very stuck onto the relationship and doing their best to understand the signs of attraction/repulsion from the other person to forge stronger bonds, etc. 

However, I've met ILIs who are players, who are unconcerned about relationship loyalty, leave their friends behind randomly, and so on. Tertiary Fi can manifest in MANY ways, and the above is only one of them. Enneatype is another factor playing into it. Therefore, while wanting loyalty is not an xLI thing exclusively, tertiary Fi can motivate them to that end.

Which is why I said starting backwards from relating to function roles, outside of the holistic context of the type, is not recommended.

b) In relation to the bits on Te, you said you need accurate and verifiable sources to document the claims made to you, and you prefer efficient environments. Stereotypically, an SEI is supposed to feel incapable of doing these things on their own, but there's another aspect to it. That aspect is that everyone needs to imbibe a degree of these skills in logic and factual accuracy to survive through schooling and debates and whatnot. I'm supposed to have Ti as my weakest function, which means I should feel absolutely incapable of logical consistency. That is not true for me. I've always been cautious whenever I present my logic, and I'm nearly always consistent. Some things you just have to learn. However, make me argue with a Ti dom and I will quickly get annoyed by how much more consistent they seem (whether they are or not, it takes very little effort for them to construct convincing logical structures). Therefore, while I'm wholly capable, there may be others more capable than me. Still, I'm fairly proficient and I've often beaten several people in debates. Does that make me Ti ego? Nope. In the same way, being a critical and careful judge of the information you receive and present may not necessarily make you Te.

Why do I say this clause? Because I went through your recent post history and although I just skimmed, I haven't noticed any demonstrations of your Te. You choose to present anecdotes and narrate whether you relate or not rather than actually argue logic. I mean, you spoke to several T types on your thread, and even to them, you simply narrated your experiences and how they made you feel. It's a pretty SF thing to do.

I also spotted a discussion with Bugs in your post history, where he was talking about "objective truth" and mentioned how it refers to the undeniable facts of reality (not "absolute truth", just clarifying) but you immediately reminded him to maintain balance between objective truth and logical principles. The emphasis on logical principles and axioms is more Ti than Te, and I don't think a Te valuer (especially one with Ti in the demonstrative area -- xLIs) would remind people to balance facts and objectivity with logical principles. xLIs consider this redundant. 

All I've noticed everywhere in your communication is a need for frictionlessness and despite you saying you're not good at soothing out emotional atmospheres, you don't seem to have any difficulty soothing out knots with well-timed expressions of your feelings, placating explanations/apologies, smileys, admonitions and whatnot. An xLI would typically be much more relentless in their arguments and usually are pretty awkward in trying to placate people. For example, I don't see how this whole recent fight with @hoopla was anything but Fe. How is expressing an honest opinion an "ego trip", and why is it indicative of her Ti, despite her not displaying an ounce of Ti in that post? There was no specific logical model she was espousing the tenets of -- it was a pretty non-function-biased post. However, you and a bunch of others sought to quell her, because you guys thought she was bringing up something annoying when she herself isn't infallible, and your issues with the ISFJ type were left in the past. Essentially, it seemed lot like an attempt to stick to the current atmosphere or "mood" of openness and acceptance and not taint it with personal diversions, which you guys saw as pretty arrogant.

However, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about Te/Fe, because of your/your friends' insistence, and also because you say you relate a lot to Te, despite you not having demonstrated it. It's entirely possible your video will prove something different -- but because I say this, please don't try to demonstrate more or less of any function there


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> It's not so much about the past because I've never believed, wanted, or seen myself with a partner in the long-term. When I try, it's because why not. Aside from this, though, I can't really think of anything else I've idealized or felt repelled by.


I don't necessarily mean YOUR past, so much as ... the past. Throughout history, has there ever been such a thing?

Si can turn us into the most incredible cynics, so much so that we can predict what will happen before it does, because we just ... know. The pattern was established centuries ago. We just happen to be watching it continue to unfurl around us. 

On the lines of being repulsed -- when someone or something does not fit my expectation of what they OUGHT to be, built up by some or other long-held preconception, I pull away from it/them. I am turned off by it. I expect THIS, and if they give me THAT... ugh.


----------



## Immolate

Amaterasu said:


> However, *I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about Te/Fe, because of your/your friends' insistence, and also because you say you relate a lot to Te, despite you not having demonstrated it.* It's entirely possible your video will prove something different -- but because I say this, please don't try to demonstrate more or less of any function there


Oh stop 

If your firm conclusion is SEI, than say so. It would save us both time and effort.


----------



## Vermillion

@angelcat 

Si is a perceiving function. It does not make judgments about how the world ought to be. That is left to judging functions, which create systems of organization for that purpose. So no, Si is not the cause of idealism in every sense of the word.

However, yes, Si does create and meld together sensory impressions to form templates of experiences that it would prefer to color the world in terms of, and experience again and again. The impressions it forms are highly subjective and focus more on how the object world impacts the individual, rather than the object world itself. 

Si isn't necessarily the only function that is connected to nostalgia and longing and idealism, however.

Also, idealism is very common to the Enneagram frustration triad (1,4,7)

Just clarifying.


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> On the lines of being repulsed -- when someone or something does not fit my expectation of what they OUGHT to be, built up by some or other long-held preconception, I pull away from it/them. I am turned off by it. I expect THIS, and if they give me THAT... ugh.


And suddenly so much of what has gone on over the past few pages makes more sense.


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> It's not so much about the past because I've never believed, wanted, or seen myself with a partner in the long-term. When I try, it's because why not. Aside from this, though, I can't really think of anything else I've idealized or felt repelled by.


(You're sounding so much like my ISTP sister, it's scary.)

See, it's this kind of thing which made me think initially 'No way is shiny using Si dominantly', but as many other people said there was no way you could use Ni, I started to doubt myself, going 'Well, if everyone's saying something different from me, I can't be right'.

I'm still personally undecided, because I always have this niggling doubt when it comes to typing people, but are you sure you don't use Se higher up? Se is one of the most misconstrued functions, so it can be very easy to mix it up (especially with that whole stereotype of Ni being future-orientated and imaginative/visionary while Se is just this basic little function that likes to kick a ball around a field...). I actually think Se is the most objective of perceiving functions and so can be mistaken for Te usage if you're not careful.

Do you think that's a possibility? I don't want to go into loads of depth on it if it's not.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I don't necessarily mean YOUR past, so much as ... the past. Throughout history, has there ever been such a thing?
> 
> Si can turn us into the most incredible cynics, so much so that we can predict what will happen before it does, because we just ... know. The pattern was established centuries ago. We just happen to be watching it continue to unfurl around us.
> 
> On the lines of being repulsed -- when someone or something does not fit my expectation of what they OUGHT to be, built up by some or other long-held preconception, I pull away from it/them. I am turned off by it. I expect THIS, and if they give me THAT... ugh.


I've never stopped to consider it that way. I think people have different definitions and expectations of love, and they're satisfied in ways I may not be because they have different standards, but that doesn't make their love or relationship any less pure or ideal. It's about what works for the person, so, in that sense, past history has no relevance in my life. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you.


----------



## Vermillion

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh stop
> 
> If your firm conclusion is SEI, than say so. It would save us both time and effort.


Please don't bullshit me. I said I'm willing to reconsider your Fe after watching your video. It's not something I'm saying to be condescending, but to ensure I'm accurate in my verdict. You're creating enemies where there are none.


----------



## fair phantom

Amaterasu said:


> @angelcat
> 
> Si is a perceiving function. It does not make judgments about how the world ought to be. That is left to judging functions, which create systems of organization for that purpose. So no, Si is not the cause of idealism in every sense of the word.
> 
> However, yes, Si does create and meld together sensory impressions to form templates of experiences that it would prefer to color the world in terms of, and experience again and again. The impressions it forms are highly subjective and focus more on how the object world impacts the individual, rather than the object world itself.
> 
> Si isn't necessarily the only function that is connected to nostalgia and longing and idealism, however.
> 
> Also, idealism is very common to the Enneagram frustration triad (1,4,7)
> 
> Just clarifying.


are you speaking for socionics or myers briggs or jung or all of the above? (just trying to get more clarity eaceful.


----------



## owlet

Also I made the terrible mistake of thinking I'd reply quickly before going to bed and just listen to an album I like while I did it... and now I can't stop listening to the music.






(Andrew Bird's music is so great!)


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

fair phantom said:


> are you speaking for socionics or myers briggs or jung or all of the above? (just trying to get more clarity eaceful.


Socionics and MBTI are both based on Jung's work.

/nitpick


----------



## Immolate

emberfly said:


> I couldn't help but think that some of what you described was Fe-influenced. I wonder if ISTJs would also describe Si the way you have here.


I don't think so.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I pick apart Pretty Little Liars all the time. My husband wants to throw the couch pillows at me every time too. I love that show, in a guilty pleasure kind of way. but good grief, their shit never adds up. It is never logical, or realistic. I like my fantasies realistically-unrealistic. But regular shows, ugh... at least make them believable. I can't stand it. The show goes in complete circles, yet never truly explains anything. And when it does, it is nonsense, and leads to more nonsensical BS. 

Anyway, I do actually care about the characters, but the story needs to add up.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Hmmm... interesting links. Thoughts?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php/34956-Jungian-INFP-vs-INFJ-A-Functional-Analysis

http://wambly.weebly.com/dealing-with-infp-loops.html


EDIT: I read this before, but wasn't as informed on the functions. Interesting for sure...
http://personalitycafe.com/articles...-disorders.html#/forumsite/20588/topics/25205


----------



## Greyhart

Look at my baby

* *


----------



## Dangerose

voodoodoll said:


> I have looked into it but I'm not convinced i'm Fi dom. I could just be missing or misinterpreting something though. Not convinced I'm high up Se either, I feel really clumsy with it and don't consider myself particularly action oriented/hands on/artistic.
> 
> Also this thread moves really fast.


Have you made a questionnaire?


----------



## aendern

angelcat said:


> shinynotshiny: I don't know if you are Si-dom or not. I don't know if you are SiFe or not. But I hope that someone can articulate something in a way that helps you grasp your sense of self enough to send you down that path of self-recognition. For me, it came from reading a lot of arkigos' posts about Si. I somehow fought through the abstracts and began to understand them, and then it all sort of ... made sense, in a way I can't explain.


I love everything he writes. Do you happen to have the link on hand to his posts of Si?

edit:

Oh sorry -- I didn't realize you answered that literally in the very next post.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

SugarPlum said:


> Hmmm... interesting links. Thoughts?
> 
> Jungian INFP vs INFJ: A Functional Analysis
> 
> Dealing with INFP Loops - wambly.weebly.com


Oh personalitynation.... I miss it. It was wonderful.

I used to live and breathe Simulatedworld's descriptions of types. He was very influenced by the work of Lenore Thompson. I haven't read any of her work aside from online excerpts of each of her function descriptions. She had interesting things to say, and I eventually plan to purchase Personality Types: An Owner's Manual. 

I think he had the right idea, and that his profiles were profoundly better than that of which you would find online. However there were a few errors. His descriptions of Si were too literal and... sounded too conservative and traditionalist. I am not conservative nor traditionalist. His description of an INFJ well... it sounded very Ne to me after I re-read it. As for Fi...

I want the "moral compass" and "strong personal value" shit to squander and fade into obscurity. That is value (Feeling). MANY Fe types will report this... because they all have strong personal values and moral compasses. They often feel internalized because if the group is deflected towards the object, Fe will shun them. Fe can stand up for themselves or have an opinion that differs from the group. Absolutely. It will just remain penetrated within the object.

In fact... Fi often doesn't even know what their values are, or how to express them. Too impressionistic, ruminating and introspective. When they do express their opinions, there is no desire to change or influence, or it is highly tempered through Te. For the most part... Fi doesn't even seem to care if people are in sync with their values. To quote Regina Spektor:



> You peer inside yourself
> You take the things you like
> And try to love the things you took
> And then you take that love you made
> And stick it into some
> Someone else's heart
> Pumping someone else's blood
> And walking arm in arm
> You hope it don't get harmed


Live and let live... you take what you like and reserve it... and when someone else takes it, you hope it's still yours, left untouched. In fact... I wouldn't say many would describe themselves as having a strong moral compass. They do, but I don't think many realize it, because it's so mulled over and personal that it doesn't come across as strong. It's just something they like or something they don't. They stick with what they love, and dislike what they don't(So I suppose I do agree with Entropic), and they really don't care about what anyone else values. That's about it.

I'd have to read both links and tell you what I think. Not currently in the mood. But as for anything written by StimulatedWorld- He is either really great, or off the mark. Seems to be how I view almost anything in relation to typology. Ha.


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> @angelcat I felt ambivalent about Anna Karenina, because I just couldn't understand why she was so bent on being selfish and . . . horrible. She didn't ring true, I just wasn't convinced by her (I know she's meant to be an ENFJ, but . . . ugh, I don't want her in my type). I loved Kitty and Levin, though, so I was able to read the book. But on the whole it didn't speak to me on any deep level (outside of the Kitty/Levin parts) because it just rang false, I didn't understand the character motivations. I really loved War and Peace, though.


I loved the story arc with her husband, and how he found forgiveness, but in doing so, he embraced an overly protective form of it that ultimately sabotaged his wife in her infidelity. She called him to her bedside when she thought she was dying and this angry, bitter man underwent a trans-formative experience -- he forgave her, and her lover. He started to care for her child as his own. He proved himself the better man, the worthier man, and neither Vronsky nor Anna could endure it; they came to hate him and themselves because they were contrasted with his perceived "goodness" -- but Karenin carried that to extremes, and refused to divorce her out of fear of what might become of her, if Vronsky left her. With Anna still having his last name, she was protected -- as his wife. Yet, while she still bore his name, she could not marry Vronsky. The lack of marital security, the paranoia about her husband, the havoc it wreaks, Karenin carrying his forgiveness into a negative extreme ... it's all a gorgeous, layered psychological study that explores faith and human nature and all that lies in between. I just eat that stuff up with a spoon. So much to think about.



hoopla said:


> Exactly what I thought. It was a good depiction of Si... tempered with Fe. Not pure Si.


But which is which?


----------



## Max

@All

PLEASE READ: 

I think I need a psychical and mental break from things. I am in the middle of a big project, and I'm not actually sure how much I'll be on over the summer, tbh. 

I'm making a blog, a website, managing resources and stalking a lot of threads in the time being, fighting the temptation to stay on here. I don't know anymore. I love you guys, and think you're all amazing people. 

I have finally found a project that I am happy with, and have the concentration to maintain. It even has its own Tapatalk application, which is rad. So if I'm not on as much, you know what's up. 

I'll still probably answer messages, so message me if you want me. It's the best way to get my attention, because I lose a lot of tags and mentions on this phone app. At least the message comes up and flashes. 

If you wanna get my attention, have a chat with me, need me, have mentioned me in a post or link me to anything etc, just message me.

Have a nice summer if I don't see you guys on the threads 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## wastethenight

Oswin said:


> Have you made a questionnaire?


Yeah I made a couple but I didn't get that many responses that were helpful and I'm not sure I still like my answers haha. I'm tempted to try one of the socionics questionnaires instead because I like some of the questions better but I know next to nothing about socionics. Sounds like inviting a second headache.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I am really tired right now, not very coherent thought-wise internally, but eh, Anna Karenina was being talked about. 

A few years ago, I almost finished the book in a few days. Read 100 pages in a night. My teacher told me it would be too difficult to understand. It was only glorious. 

I actually highlighted the descriptions of Anna that I thought matched my perception of how others saw me. Which was... interesting. A bit of a stretch, but her interactions with her brother especially reminded me of my friends and I. 

I need to get ahold of the movie, but how? 

I also need to read it fully... I wanted to read it because it was about love. A different kind of love than in my glorious, perfect Les Mis... but love all the same. And I'm always open to reading about that. 

I was sad that Levin ends up with Kitty. Kitty shouldn't have to settle  but I suppose I'll see how that relationship works out in the end.


----------



## 68097

LuchoIsLurking said:


> @All
> 
> PLEASE READ:
> 
> I think I need a psychical and mental break from things. I am in the middle of a big project, and I'm not actually sure how much I'll be on over the summer, tbh.
> 
> I'm making a blog, a website, managing resources and stalking a lot of threads in the time being, fighting the temptation to stay on here. I don't know anymore. I love you guys, and think you're all amazing people.
> 
> I have finally found a project that I am happy with, and have the concentration to maintain. It even has its own Tapatalk application, which is rad. So if I'm not on as much, you know what's up.
> 
> I'll still probably answer messages, so message me if you want me. It's the best way to get my attention, because I lose a lot of tags and mentions on this phone app. At least the message comes up and flashes.
> 
> If you wanna get my attention, have a chat with me, need me, have mentioned me in a post or link me to anything etc, just message me.
> 
> Have a nice summer if I don't see you guys on the threads
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


Have an awesome break!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh and @LuchoIsLurking I hope you have a productive and satisfying time! Know you are always welcome back whenever you feel it is not hinderous for you.


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> I was sad that Levin ends up with Kitty. Kitty shouldn't have to settle  but I suppose I'll see how that relationship works out in the end.


Levin was kind of a jerk... but through Kitty, he found God, which I found interesting.

ETA: oops, I skim-read and saw that you hadn't finished reading it. I hope that's not a bad spoiler.

I read somewhere that elements of the novel reflected Tolstoy's own life, and his marriage -- particularly referencing the litany of "sexual offenses" Levin presented to his wife on their wedding night. If I remember right, that's exactly what Tolstoy did with his wife. Gee, thanks, hon. I'm so ready to sleep with you now.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

emberfly said:


> I love everything he writes. Do you happen to have the link on hand to his posts of Si?
> 
> edit:
> 
> Oh sorry -- I didn't realize you answered that literally in the very next post.


 @arkigos really helped me understand Si.

All the descriptions were... memory based. At least, what I read online.

It made absolutely no sense to me. Doesn't everyone have a working memory? Isn't everyone prone to nostalgia?

My prior understanding of Si has been completely reprogrammed thanks to him. For me it was duty, honor, tradition, replicating the past... stupid shit like that, because that's what everyone was touting. Out every function, Si was the hardest for me to understand.

The thing that stood out to me was this:

For the longest time... I thought I hated stereotypes. He is absolutely right. I am a pro stereotyper, and hate bad or inaccurate ones. 

I was 17 and ignorant of type when I first joined... and no one would have typed me as an SFJ... no way in hell... due to inaccurate stereotypes. I didn't have my own money and I've always been very guarded in terms of interests... so I was too shy to ask my parents for anything. Eventually I did end up reading some Keirsey and Was That Really Me? but after learning more, I no longer consider those works profound (...actually I never cared for Keirsey... but I was all about the in the grip theory for awhile) and they are certainly fallible and erroneous in some places. Fortunately I finally found Jung's Psychological Types online... and that really helped as well (I've only read chapter X, so keep that in mind).

The one thing I have noticed since returning from my 3 year departure of this very forum (joined and left in 2011) is that while poor depictions... and of course backhanded compliments, have not ceased in terms of SFJ, and the intuitive bias is still very intact...it seems to have lessened a bit. I actually hear nice things about SFJs now that don't put them at the bottom of a hierarchy... which was unheard of once upon a time. Arkigos actually describes SFJs as... human beings. I almost wonder if perhaps he is partly responsible but I'm probably idealizing here. 

As he once said.... many SFJs are massive nerds, interested in books, philosophy and fantasy and are very imaginative and creative.... in a storybook sort of way.

I never saw anything like that in regards to SFJs when I joined 3 1/2 years ago. I thank him for it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> Levin was kind of a jerk... but through Kitty, he found God, which I found interesting.
> 
> ETA: oops, I skim-read and saw that you hadn't finished reading it. I hope that's not a bad spoiler.
> 
> I read somewhere that elements of the novel reflected Tolstoy's own life, and his marriage -- particularly referencing the litany of "sexual offenses" Levin presented to his wife on their wedding night. If I remember right, that's exactly what Tolstoy did with his wife. Gee, thanks, hon. I'm so ready to sleep with you now.


Nah, it's fine. I'm alright with classics being spoiled for me. And that's a pretty basic thing. 

But... ouch, about that last paragraph. 

I've read commentaries that went into how Tolstoy made Levin a self-insert... which was hilarious to the writers, who believed Levin was a much better man than Tolstoy. I found that interesting. It made me conscious of self inserts I may have in my own writing.


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> (completely off-topic) NBC cancelled _Hannibal_. I can't say I'm surprised but... :ssad:


I hunted down this comment to respond to it.

My response: NOOOO.

And then: I'm honestly not surprised. It's always been a niche drama, highly impressionistic, very Ni.

Then too, how could they do the next story arc -- The Silence of the Lambs -- without Clarice Starling? Yet, they do not have the rights to her. So perhaps, despite this tragedy, it is okay that it ends where it will, which is ... where? Not sure, but with the conclusion of the Red Dragon arc.


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> I hunted down this comment to respond to it.
> 
> My response: NOOOO.
> 
> And then: I'm honestly not surprised. It's always been a niche drama, highly impressionistic, very Ni.
> 
> Then too, how could they do the next story arc -- The Silence of the Lambs -- without Clarice Starling? Yet, they do not have the rights to her. So perhaps, despite this tragedy, it is okay that it ends where it will, which is ... where? Not sure, but with the conclusion of the Red Dragon arc.


You have a good point, but...I'm hoping that netflix or someone else will pick it up.


----------



## 68097

@hoopla: Ah, stereotypes and how we see the world. Labels. Yes... labels. Damn them, but I can't get away from them. At least, now I'm aware that I'm DOING IT, so I can fight through it. 

The anti-SJ bias is still strong on PerC, but in some circles it's lessening to a degree, and I'd like to think that @arkigos has had a lot to do with it -- as have people like you and me and many others, who "break" the stereotype to some degree, enough that we jar people away from their perception of what SFJs are like. 



alittlebear said:


> Nah, it's fine. I'm alright with classics being spoiled for me. And that's a pretty basic thing.
> 
> But... ouch, about that last paragraph.
> 
> I've read commentaries that went into how Tolstoy made Levin a self-insert... which was hilarious to the writers, who believed Levin was a much better man than Tolstoy. I found that interesting. It made me conscious of self inserts I may have in my own writing.


His wife was long-suffering. (I don't know how accurate it is, but there's a really cool movie about them -- with Helen Mirren and Christopher Plummer in it. She in particular is magnificent, but that's nothing new. The Last Station? Seems like that might be the title.) 

Self-inserts. I don't do it consciously, but unconsciously, I do. One of my friends, after reading a manuscript of mine, said, "This character is who you are, and this other character is who you want to be -- a more idealized, stronger version of the first character." 

Oops.



fair phantom said:


> You have a good point, but...I'm hoping that netflix or someone else will pick it up.


Fingers crossed.

Bedelia has been a Clarice stand-in this season; they're mirroring the events of the last book / Hannibal. Though, Bedelia is a bit more cunning.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I am really tired right now, not very coherent thought-wise internally, but eh, Anna Karenina was being talked about.
> 
> A few years ago, I almost finished the book in a few days. Read 100 pages in a night. My teacher told me it would be too difficult to understand. It was only glorious.
> 
> I actually highlighted the descriptions of Anna that I thought matched my perception of how others saw me. Which was... interesting. A bit of a stretch, but her interactions with her brother especially reminded me of my friends and I.
> 
> I need to get ahold of the movie, but how?
> 
> I also need to read it fully... I wanted to read it because it was about love. A different kind of love than in my glorious, perfect Les Mis... but love all the same. And I'm always open to reading about that.
> 
> I was sad that Levin ends up with Kitty. Kitty shouldn't have to settle  but I suppose I'll see how that relationship works out in the end.


for the movie: Library?

I need to reread _Anna Karenina_. It has been so long that I am fuzzy on the details, but I remember loving it, even though my Russian lit prof said that everyone who loves Dostoevsky doesn't like Tolstoy and vice versa. 

for the record: I _prefer_ Dostoevsky, but I love the novels I've read by both authors.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@angelcat



> _I'm either I am drawn to the object or repulsed by it; and if I cannot personalize it in this manner, then I want nothing to do with it. The things I love, I seek to make mine, to internalize them, to allow them to become part of my greater sense of identity, and all else is banished and abandoned._
> 
> _ One other nuance of Si, unfortunately, is a lack of reality. I see this in Si's all the time, where reality -- actual reality -- is displaced by personal myth, or the way they WANT to see the object. Thus, an unattractive person becomes the most handsome person they have ever seen in their mind, *because they love that person*._ *Or totally amoral and awful behavior is ignored or romanticized* _out of a lack of ability to see reality, to separate the archetype from the myth and find the truth. Sansa Stark comes to mind as an example -- she sees Joffrey not for who he is, but who she wants him to be; *she makes him into the image she wants to behold,* which is in no way drawn from who he actually is. Outsiders, even Si users, can see the reality the Si-user themselves cannot, but are blind to their own projections in their own life_. (Until they realize their view is _subjective_ -- and then, in my case, all my suppositions are brought under a magnifying glass and immediately seen as suspect. Do I remember the truth, or an _impression_?)
> 
> _ A line from the recent Cinderella comes to mind -- she saw the world not as it is, but as it could be. In a sense, we are repulsed by reality, and hate it, because it is not how it OUGHT to be_.


Bolded=Fe
Italics=Si
Underlined=Ti

Criticisms welcome of course.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> for the movie: Library?
> 
> I need to reread _Anna Karenina_. It has been so long that I am fuzzy on the details, but I remember loving it, even though my Russian lit prof said that everyone who loves Dostoevsky doesn't like Tolstoy and vice versa.
> 
> for the record: I _prefer_ Dostoevsky, but I love the novels I've read by both authors.


_Crime and Punishment_ was not my bae book. The main character was just... awful. I did relate to his anxiety, his forward thinking, his consumption of the universe... but he was so cold. He cared for no one but himself. He told his family he hated them. He killed two women because he could not fathom humbling himself enough to get a job. 

I mean, the story is great. It's a masterpiece. I love the side characters. But Raskolnikov was an [insert derogatory noun here]. and at some points it felt like a parody of _Les Miserables_, the author's take on what would happen if you pressed the idealism of Les Mis into the real world. At the end this impression dissolved... but still. Things are so much more gruff. Of course it's meaningful - it's showing the non fantastic bad side of life just as _King Lear_ I think showed a dramatized bad side of life - but... I don't think it got Christian values right, which obviously annoyed me in much the same way that Dante did.


----------



## 68097

@hoopla: I agree with your assessment, but am curious -- why is the line about Sansa a Fe-taint? Is it because I am objectively assessing her motivations/assuming them?


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> _Crime and Punishment_ was not my bae book. The main character was just... awful. I did relate to his anxiety, his forward thinking, his consumption of the universe... but he was so cold. He cared for no one but himself. He told his family he hated them. He killed two women because he could not fathom humbling himself enough to get a job.
> 
> I mean, the story is great. It's a masterpiece. I love the side characters. But Raskolnikov was an [insert derogatory noun here]. and at some points it felt like a parody of _Les Miserables_, the author's take on what would happen if you pressed the idealism of Les Mis into the real world. At the end this impression dissolved... but still. Things are so much more gruff. Of course it's meaningful - it's showing the non fantastic bad side of life just as _King Lear_ I think showed a dramatized bad side of life - but... I don't think it got Christian values right, which obviously annoyed me in much the same way that Dante did.


Haven't read that one. I've read _The Brothers Karamazov_ (3 times), _The Idiot_, _The Double_ and _Notes from the Underground_. (I listed them in order from most to least loved :love_heart


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom do you know anything about Chekhov? I got a book of his plays from the library today because it seemed pretty legit, but I know nothing about him.
@Oswin I imagine you would be helpful here as well?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also, any tips on how to make two small dogs feel that you love them best when you are with them at the same time? My sister's young pup just snuggled into my room, my dog's too tired to bark at him, and she absolutely hates it when I pay attention to him but he's so adorable and assertive in his cuteness... but she like literally gets sick (like, ejecting blood sick) when she thinks I love another dog more than her. 

This is a very difficult situation to be in ngl any and all advice appreciated

Edit: nvm the puppy left that little traitor


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> Also, any tips on how to make two small dogs feel that you love them best when you are with them at the same time? My sister's young pup just snuggled into my room, my dog's too tired to bark at him, and she absolutely hates it when I pay attention to him but he's so adorable and assertive in his cuteness... but she like literally gets sick (like, ejecting blood sick) when she thinks I love another dog more than her.
> 
> This is a very difficult situation to be in ngl any and all advice appreciated



Actually! I have some very important advice! Make sure there isn't a Alpha/Omega pecking order already in place. If the dog is Alpha, he should ALWAYS get attention, love etc FIRST! Never ever try to treat them as equals. The puppy won't think twice. 

Not sure if there is any indication that the Dog is Alpha (some packs dont ever establish one for unknown reasons), but make sure there isn't first. Then go from there.

I did a lot of research and talks with professionals on the matter after making this grave mistake with my best friend, Daisy who I just had to put down due to my lack of knowledge.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @fair phantom do you know anything about Chekhov? I got a book of his plays from the library today because it seemed pretty legit, but I know nothing about him.


I love chekhov! I read Three Sisters and Uncle Vanya. I've seen The Seagull performed. I'm quite partial to Three Sisters. They are not really the most cheerful plays, but I find them so _human_.


----------



## Persephone Soul

My Baby. :'(


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I am really tired right now, not very coherent thought-wise internally, but eh, Anna Karenina was being talked about.
> 
> A few years ago, I almost finished the book in a few days. Read 100 pages in a night. My teacher told me it would be too difficult to understand. It was only glorious.
> 
> I actually highlighted the descriptions of Anna that I thought matched my perception of how others saw me. Which was... interesting. A bit of a stretch, but her interactions with her brother especially reminded me of my friends and I.
> 
> I need to get ahold of the movie, but how?
> 
> I also need to read it fully... I wanted to read it because it was about love. A different kind of love than in my glorious, perfect Les Mis... but love all the same. And I'm always open to reading about that.
> 
> I was sad that Levin ends up with Kitty. Kitty shouldn't have to settle  but I suppose I'll see how that relationship works out in the end.


Noooo Levin is my favorite character in the whole thing) If she ended up with Vronskiy, I would have been angry) You should read the book -- they have such a lovely relationship.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> @hoopla: I agree with your assessment, but am curious -- why is the line about Sansa a Fe-taint? Is it because I am objectively assessing her motivations/assuming them?


Actually I'm not looking at what you wrote in that context. I'm not even looking at your evaluation of Sansa; I'm looking exclusively at the way it was framed.

Wanting to change an individual into something else... that's influence of value. Fe. As Jung said, Fi has no desire to change or influence others in any way.

Of course, wanting an objective sensory image to pertain to a subjective one would be Si, so I could be misinterpreting... but it sounds like the focus is on changing an individual in order to preserve objective value.


----------



## fair phantom

#TeamKitty


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> Actually! I have some very important advice! Make sure there isn't a Alpha/Omega pecking order already in place. If the dog is Alpha, he should ALWAYS get attention, love etc FIRST! Never ever try to treat them as equals. The puppy won't think twice.
> 
> Not sure if there is any indication that the Dog is Alpha (some packs dont ever establish one for unknown reasons), but make sure there isn't first. Then go from there.
> 
> I did a lot of research and talks with professionals on the matter after making this grave mistake with my best friend, Daisy who I just had to put down due to my lack of knowledge.


Oh dear... Thank you! But may I ask how the pecking order brought you to put your dog down? (I'm sorry, I understand if this is a touchy subject and you do not want to talk about it.)

She's a tiny chihuahua and he's a decent sized... what do they call them, the long dog, Dotson, can't spell it right? And I mean... He respects her, I think. He plays with her and sometimes bullies her but at the same time if she barks at him, he's out. He also doesn't... Well I mean this is nasty and sad but when my aunt brought her dogs over he did some violating things to both of them... but he's never done that to our older dog. Ever. 

So I suppose there could be a pecking order. 

Either way, I want to pet him  

He actually used to be way too subordinate around ME, I think. When I called him he would scramble over with his tail between his legs, and even though I just wanted to pet him he would roll over on the ground... It took a while to teach him that oh, I wanted to pet him, he could wag his tail and get excited. Could be because I am the other dog's property, or he associates me with her... Hmm. 

Whatever it is, thank you for the advice! I will take that into consideration.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> @fair phantom do you know anything about Chekhov? I got a book of his plays from the library today because it seemed pretty legit, but I know nothing about him.
> @Oswin I imagine you would be helpful here as well?


I literally have only read Tolstoy, Pushkin and Bulgakov) And...some other random non-famous people) I mean, I might have read the Cherry Orchard or A Doll's House but I don't remember fully. If I did it was a while ago. Sorry (
I need to read Crime and Punishment, but Dostoevsky has an annoyingly large Russian vocabulary which makes it...a lovely challenge. I'm sure it won't be so bad when I get used to his style, but I want to get a print copy of his book before trying it on Kindle.

P.S. Show attention to the dogs in different rooms


----------



## Persephone Soul

So,just out of curiosity. .. sorry if I make anyone uncomfortable, but do you think the way one prefers sex etc to be function related? I am trying to stay away from ' behavior' as determining factors, but I can't help but think that it can be related. Fe seems it would be more 'catering'. Se, more sensual in the aspect of physical desire. Etc. This could seem very stereotypical, but yet... it seems like there could be correlation. 

If you have a couple, and he is super cuddly and wants to 'make love' and enjoys foreplay etc, but the woman likes to be spontaneous, more 'kinky' and get straight to the point. She doesn't need emotional ties an would prefer to leave it out, yet all he wants to do is look into her eyes, and be romantic.... so on and so forth. It seems as though cognition could be at play.

No?


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Actually! I have some very important advice! Make sure there isn't a Alpha/Omega pecking order already in place. If the dog is Alpha, he should ALWAYS get attention, love etc FIRST! Never ever try to treat them as equals. The puppy won't think twice.
> 
> Not sure if there is any indication that the Dog is Alpha (some packs dont ever establish one for unknown reasons), but make sure there isn't first. Then go from there.
> 
> I did a lot of research and talks with professionals on the matter after making this grave mistake with my best friend, Daisy who I just had to put down due to my lack of knowledge.


What happened?


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> So,just out of curiosity. .. sorry if I make anyone uncomfortable, but do you think the way one prefers sex etc to be function related. I am trying to stay away from ' behavior' as determining factors, but I can't help but think that it can be related. Fe seems it would be more 'catering'. Se, more sensual in the aspect of physical desire. Etc. This could seem very stereotypical, but yet... it seems like there could be correlation.
> 
> If you have a couple, and he is super cuddly and wants to 'make love' and enjoys foreplay etc, but the woman likes to be spontaneous, more 'kinky' and get straight to the point. She doesn't need emotional ties an would prefer to leave it out, yet all he wants to do is look into her eyes, and be romantic.... so on and so fourth. It seems as though cognition could be at play.
> 
> No?


Or it could be something about the relationship, or how they are considering it -- if the man sees it as an emotional, spiritual union but the woman sees it as a more carnal thing. Though Fe vs Se could be part of it too
But don't ask me, I'm but a damosel))


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually! I have some very important advice! Make sure there isn't a Alpha/Omega pecking order already in place. If the dog is Alpha, he should ALWAYS get attention, love etc FIRST! Never ever try to treat them as equals. The puppy won't think twice.
> 
> Not sure if there is any indication that the Dog is Alpha (some packs dont ever establish one for unknown reasons), but make sure there isn't first. Then go from there.
> 
> I did a lot of research and talks with professionals on the matter after making this grave mistake with my best friend, Daisy who I just had to put down due to my lack of knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear... Thank you! But may I ask how the pecking order brought you to put your dog down? (I'm sorry, I understand if this is a touchy subject and you do not want to talk about it.)
> 
> She's a tiny chihuahua and he's a decent sized... what do they call them, the long dog, Dotson, can't spell it right? And I mean... He respects her, I think. He plays with her and sometimes bullies her but at the same time if she barks at him, he's out. He also doesn't... Well I mean this is nasty and sad but when my aunt brought her dogs over he did some violating things to both of them... but he's never done that to our older dog. Ever.
> 
> So I suppose there could be a pecking order.
> 
> Either way, I want to pet him
> 
> He actually used to be way too subordinate around ME, I think. When I called him he would scramble over with his tail between his legs, and even though I just wanted to pet him he would roll over on the ground... It took a while to teach him that oh, I wanted to pet him, he could wag his tail and get excited. Could be because I am the other dog's property, or he associates me with her... Hmm.
> 
> Whatever it is, thank you for the advice! I will take that into consideration.
Click to expand...

I will share it with you. But maybe privately. story is very painful, and I am not quite healed. But it may help others so maybe I will share. When I am on the computer next I'll explain. It does sound like there is an order, but it hasn't become aggressive yet. 

My baby progressively got more and more vicious because we tried to treat them as equals. She had to keep proving to our other dog that she was Alpha, and the more we reprimanded her in front of him, it confused their order and made her more aggressive. I'll find a link later for yuh.


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, A Doll's House isn't even Chekhov) That's how profoundly my lack of knowledge runs)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I love chekhov! I read Three Sisters and Uncle Vanya. I've seen The Seagull performed. I'm quite partial to Three Sisters. They are not really the most cheerful plays, but I find them so _human_.


My doctors appointment tomorrow is like two hours away, I hope to maybe read a play on the way. Would you recommend _Three Sisters_ (since I can only read one, I imagine)?


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I don't know about @ElliCat , but I was referring to things like: someone claiming Obama is a muslim and/or not a US citizen and when I try to get them to see reason they cry: OPINION! Or "welfare recipients are mostly lazy black people - OPINION!"


Even opinions can be factually incorrect, this is a prime example, as you don't get more US citizen than the President. :laughing:


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> Exactly! I like throwing ideas around and seeing what sticks, but I don't enjoy turning it into a competition or when people get aggressive about pushing one point of view. It's more a chance to gather different perspectives and narrow some down together, while having a bit of fun with speculating.
> 
> 
> My everything is organised chaos, hahaha! I HATED it when my mother would swoop in and clean my desk/room - I would spend months looking for things!
> 
> I am a hideous procrastinator, except for when it comes to group work, because it's one thing for me to throw something together at the last minute and quite another to do that while having to coordinate multiple people and put it all together after everyone's done.
> 
> I doubt it's a type thing though. One of my grandmothers is very stereotypically SJ in a lot of ways, and she's terrible too.
> 
> 
> Yes, the problem often comes down to what people think of as discrimination. A lot of the times when they discriminate, they're rationalising it like, "well it's just MY opinion and I don't have to like them and besides it's all based on past experiences so if they don't want me to think this way about them then maybe they shouldn't..." blah blah blah.
> 
> And the all or nothing approach. Like when you share that you're not feeling good about something, and the other person reacts like, "YOU think YOU'VE got it bad? That's nothing, this is what I'M feeling..." and I'm left confused as to how the fact that I might be hurting is perceived as negating the other person's hurt. Why can't we both feel bad? lol
> 
> Or that complaining about something means you have no intention of doing anything about it, ever. The end.
> 
> 
> Same.
> 
> 
> Phew! I thought afterwards that I might have worded it really badly (I shouldn't make long posts in the morning before work) but I'm glad you got it at least.
> 
> 
> Does that negate ISTJ? Or push one towards F-ness? Genuine question. I hadn't really thought about it. I wonder if I get all monologuey. I don't think I do but I'm also not always correct about how other people see me.
> 
> 
> I think I do the same thing? Like I don't think my grasp on the theory is solid enough to be of any real use in most typing threads, but if I relate to someone or think I might like them as a person or if something jumps out at me I might leave an opinion on something? But I'm really just wanting to start a dialogue. I don't think my type opinions are generally worth sharing for their own sake.
> 
> 
> Oh no, I get that. Because if they're messy, you can't always tell if it's just mess (like I leave my things lying around but I do clean regularly) or if it's mess + haven't cleaned for months. And sometimes it's better to be paranoid.
> 
> 
> Sucks about the money, but great that it wasn't entirely wasted!
> 
> 
> Oh it was you? Well then... there you go!


Yes, it's why I find it difficult sometimes talking to be ESTP friend, because she's said she can be easily influenced by outside ideas so doesn't want to discuss certain things i.e. story ideas, which I love discussing because I'm not influenced at all.

Haha, my mum tends to leave my stuff alone, although I do keep telling her to let me do the housework (she's very perfectionistic about it). We kind of bargained with each other about which areas I could put my things in and I wouldn't let them spread away from there, so it works as a system.

You're a good person, then! I had a terrible group member last semester who I had to chase for work until two days before the presentation was supposed to happen (needless to say, she did not memorise her part and it was the group's lowest presentation grade, despite discussing it with the lecturer).

No, I'm not sure what it is... My older sister (ESFJ?) was extremely messy while she lived at home (although only in her bedroom), then suddenly became a neat-freak when she moved out. My ISFJ and ESFJ friends are pretty messy, but tidy up when people are coming over. My ESTP friend tries to tidy up and fails (when I was sleeping on her floor for a couple of nights, I nearly suffocated under the amount of dust and she'd kind of shoved all the mess up against one wall, which was kind of funny).

I can't stand the sort of 'pity competition' thing. I understand when people want to try and relate to others through their own experience, but trying to one-up them is irritating. If you've only had a scratch, you're not aware of what a broken leg feels like, so it's useless to compare the two - everyone's suffering is personal and should be treated as such.

Hm, well I'm not sure if it rules out ISTJ entirely, it's just that my sister in particular noticed that I have a very... strong reaction to things that I consider unjust (For example, even when I was about five, when the teacher threatened to take away my sister's shoes because she was playing with the velcro, I took it as an injustice because my sister was just having fun, so glared at the teacher for the rest of the day - which was a big reaction from me at the time, because I was a very shy child). I'm currently trying to work out how to describe Fi and I'm coming up with things like a sort of surety in responses to things i.e. 'No, I won't like that', like a sort of immediate attraction or repulsion to something (although it may not happen until the thing is understood and may be altered afterwards).

Haha, I do get that feeling too, that it doesn't really matter what I think because the person should, and most likely will, make up their own mind, so I can leave my opinion if I want to, but it probably won't make that much difference overall. Sometimes I don't post because I don't like influencing what's happening.

Oh, she would leave bits of food or spills around the kitchen, so I assumed she was unhygienic. She was a nice person, mostly, but she shouldn't have been living away from home, because she couldn't handle cleaning up after herself.

Yes! Well, now my cat's getting revenge on me for taking him by trying to eat my lunch... I'll swab his eye again later.

It was me who didn't know about secondhand mirrors being bad luck, but this coincidence has me convinced. :ghost3:


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @Living dead can I say that I'm very confused by this 6 thing? I'm not sure what to think.
> 
> I'm too tired to discuss it now though. Gah.


I think you're too "nice" to be a core 6. It's probably in your tritype but not dominant.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I think you're too "nice" to be a core 6. It's probably in your tritype but not dominant.


What does that say about core 6s? :wink:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> What does that say about core 6s? :wink:


We're not as nice. This should be self-evident.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> We're not as nice. This should be self-evident.


You seem pretty nice to me, though that does pale in comparison to @alittlebear's moonlight glow. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

This is how I see @alittlebear:










And this is how I see myself most of the time:










LOL

No, seriously though, about half the time I ask myself, "Why can't you just be sweet? Accommodating? Why must you argue with EVERYTHING? Why can't you just enjoy the object and not have to pull it apart and twist it around? Why can't you just think this person is nice without having an ulterior motive?"

I'm not as FREAK OUT as a lot of 6's though. Just... contrary.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> This is how I see @alittlebear:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is how I see myself most of the time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> No, seriously though, about half the time I ask myself, "Why can't you just be sweet? Accommodating? Why must you argue with EVERYTHING? Why can't you just enjoy the object and not have to pull it apart and twist it around? Why can't you just think this person is nice without having an ulterior motive?"
> 
> I'm not as FREAK OUT as a lot of 6's though. Just... contrary.


Where do you find the most hilarious gifs? :laughing: Honestly, I think that's mainly to do with your tertiary Ti pull, gives you a degree of skepticism that Bear just doesn't have. Pair that along with your 6 Enneagram, and of course you'd seem a lot more cautious and distrusting than her. :wink:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Where do you find the most hilarious gifs? :laughing: Honestly, I think that's mainly to do with your tertiary Ti pull, gives you a degree of skepticism that Bear just doesn't have. Pair that along with your 6 Enneagram, and of course you'd seem a lot more cautious and distrusting than her. :wink:


I prowl around on tumblr and every time I see one I like, I save it. 

It's probably inferior Ne to some degree as well -- not trusting my own intuition when it comes to other people, so it comes out as suspicious. I know several other ISFJs and they're suspicious too, but they can't quickly think up the worst things that could happen in the way I can. They're not nearly as detached or ... well, morbid. Or as contrary. Or as argumentative. My best friend is a core 2 and it's like night and day. That we even get along is astounding.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I prowl around on tumblr and every time I see one I like, I save it.
> 
> It's probably inferior Ne to some degree as well -- not trusting my own intuition when it comes to other people, so it comes out as suspicious. I know several other ISFJs and they're suspicious too, but they can't quickly think up the worst things that could happen in the way I can. They're not nearly as detached or ... well, morbid. Or as contrary. Or as argumentative. My best friend is a core 2 and it's like night and day. That we even get along is astounding.


I'm surprised you can go into the depths of tumblr without being overwhelmed by the various groups on there. :kitteh:

It's funny, you use Ne, but you also have trademark inferior Ne qualities, it's both impressive and disturbing, in a way. I'd be proud of it, though, it's not every day you meet someone so suspicious that they argue on the slightest things and distrust people that much. :happy:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> I'm surprised you can go into the depths of tumblr without being overwhelmed by the various groups on there. :kitteh:


Groups? What groups? I filter out all groups. My attendance upon tumblr is for my own nefarious purposes. They don't post enough, though. I need MOAR.

Moar of what, you ask?

MOAR OF EVERYTHING, I say!



> It's funny, you use Ne, but you also have trademark inferior Ne qualities, it's both impressive and disturbing, in a way. I'd be proud of it, though, it's not every day you meet someone so suspicious that they argue on the slightest things and distrust people that much. :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

Since I couldn't sleep I did a Socionics video questionnaire but I'm not sure I can bring myself to post it.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Since I couldn't sleep I did a Socionics video questionnaire but I'm not sure I can bring myself to post it.


I would wait a bit until you feel comfortable, or you could post the written questionnaire instead


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> I think you're too "nice" to be a core 6. It's probably in your tritype but not dominant.


Agreed. Well, I don't know about 6s being nice or not, but I don't think it is @alittlebear 's core.



shinynotshiny said:


> I would wait a bit until you feel comfortable, or you could post the written questionnaire instead


Yeah I'm working on that too (the 80q), though I don't know if I'll post that either. :ball:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Agreed. Well, I don't know about 6s being nice or not, but I don't think it is @_alittlebear_ 's core.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I'm working on that too (the 80q), though I don't know if I'll post that either. :ball:


Well, I'm waiting to see how my catastrophe of a thread develops. I'm having a hard time recording the video so I might just do the questionnaire. You can try gauging the atmosphere and whether or not you'd feel comfortable posting?


----------



## Barakiel

Jesus. Why can't I stop tearing up. Man, this is kind of pathetic all around.



angelcat said:


> Groups? What groups? I filter out all groups. My attendance upon tumblr is for my own nefarious purposes. They don't post enough, though. I need MOAR.
> 
> Moar of what, you ask?
> 
> MOAR OF EVERYTHING, I say!


Haha, I usually find my gifs through google, I should really pay attention to my tumblr account, though. :wink:



angelcat said:


>


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Jesus. Why can't I stop tearing up. Man, this is kind of pathetic all around.



What?

What's happening.


----------



## Bugs

I'm a phobic counterphobic reformed phobic slightly neo counterphobic 6 1/2. No wings since I clipped them.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> What?
> 
> What's happening.


Oh no, nothing wrong with me, I'm just watching something, and it hits me hard. For someone who has a perpetual barrier of cynicism towards almost everyone he interacts, it's quite the thing to have me tear up at a fictional character's fate. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh no, nothing wrong with me, I'm just watching something, and it hits me hard. For someone who has a perpetual barrier of cynicism towards almost everyone he interacts, it's quite the thing to have me tear up at a fictional character's fate. :happy:


Aw :ghost3:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@alittlebear I don't recall in which thread I read this, but if my memory doesn't fail Russia was mentioned as a country that has mostly a XSTP/XNFJ influenced culture, so that explains the Se and Fe part that Oswin mentioned in her post about Russia.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Aw :ghost3:


Oh shut up. The show as a whole isn't that depressing, actually, but it's just this one character's fate which makes me tear up. Usually when that happens, it's out of respect for the character involved, but now... I just really feel sorry for him. And yet I still respect him heavily... and... argh.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Well, I'm waiting to see how my catastrophe of a thread develops. I'm having a hard time recording the video so I might just do the questionnaire. You can try gauging the atmosphere and whether or not you'd feel comfortable posting?


Yeah probably what I will do. And maybe I'll rerecord when I am less tired. I don't know.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh shut up. The show as a whole isn't that depressing, actually, but it's just this one character's fate which makes me tear up. Usually when that happens, it's out of respect for the character involved, but now... I just really feel sorry for him. And yet I still respect him heavily... and... argh.


So Fi? roud:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> So Fi? roud:


At this point, I don't even bloody know anymore. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Blue Flare said:


> @alittlebear I don't recall in which thread I read this, but if my memory doesn't fail Russia was mentioned as a country that has mostly a XSTP/XNFJ influenced culture, so that explains the Se and Fe part that Oswin mentioned in her post about Russia.


Thank you! That would explain a bit about Russia, especially as @Oswin already explained it. 

It's still so odd to me... but then again, I have been defining Russia by its lowest class. Every culture has a poor faction, but the poor do not define them... I needed to get that out of my head about Russia. 

And yet... I remember how in my history classes we discussed how artificial Russia was, how they were insecure in their place in the world and their culture reflected that as they tried desperately to model other European countries (namely France). This shows in their literature too. That's wrong of me as well, to define them in relation to others... but I do think that Moscow shows how they are beautiful in their own somewhat flamboyant culture. (I'm oversimplifying unfortunately but perhaps I am understanding something.)


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> @The one thing I have noticed since returning from my 3 year departure of this very forum (joined and left in 2011) is that while poor depictions... and of course backhanded compliments, have not ceased in terms of SFJ, and the intuitive bias is still very intact...it seems to have lessened a bit. I actually hear nice things about SFJs now that don't put them at the bottom of a hierarchy... which was unheard of once upon a time. Arkigos actually describes SFJs as... human beings. I almost wonder if perhaps he is partly responsible but I'm probably idealizing here.
> 
> As he once said.... many SFJs are massive nerds, interested in books, philosophy and fantasy and are very imaginative and creative.... in a storybook sort of way.
> 
> I never saw anything like that in regards to SFJs when I joined 3 1/2 years ago. I thank him for it.[/QUOTE]
> O___o are saying a few years ago this forum for realzies "Ew, no SFJ"???
> 
> [QUOTE="SugarPlum, post: 18717682, member: 238842"]So,just out of curiosity. .. sorry if I make anyone uncomfortable, but do you think the way one prefers sex etc to be function related? I am trying to stay away from ' behavior' as determining factors, but I can't help but think that it can be related. Fe seems it would be more 'catering'. Se, more sensual in the aspect of physical desire. Etc. This could seem very stereotypical, but yet... it seems like there could be correlation.
> 
> If you have a couple, and he is super cuddly and wants to 'make love' and enjoys foreplay etc, but the woman likes to be spontaneous, more 'kinky' and get straight to the point. She doesn't need emotional ties an would prefer to leave it out, yet all he wants to do is look into her eyes, and be romantic.... so on and so forth. It seems as though cognition could be at play.
> 
> No?[/QUOTE]
> I'm... average I suppose. I know SFJ who is faaaar kinkier than me ;)
> 
> [QUOTE="fair phantom, post: 18722074, member: 228218"]Here is a bit about my relationship with anger, for what it is worth.
> 
> [SPOILER]In the past, and sometimes now, I usually felt my anger was unjustified or at least useless. For me this was largely due to low self esteem. Sometimes I felt I had a right to be angry and then I would express it in a healthier way, but this was usually on social issues or in the defense of people I care about (the first time I ever fought back against my mother's angry tirades was when she told me that I couldn't see my friends anymore because they were a "bad influence"). Otherwise it was wrong because who was I to be angry? so I suppressed it, or shoved it aside, only giving it expression when I was too tired or emotional to control it. At the worst, I turned it inward. I directed all the anger I felt I couldn't express at myself. My anger can feel a bit like being possessed, and I hate that.
> 
> I think at least some of this can be attributed to the fact that both 4 and 7 are connected to 1.
> 
> I've worked a lot on fixing my issues with anger with significant success. But it can still be an issue.[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]
> Mine is: once I start boiling there's not stopping until someone gets rolled into a burrito. I can't lock it inside.
> 
> [QUOTE="fair phantom, post: 18724986, member: 228218"]Yeah I'm working on that too (the 80q), though I don't know if I'll post that either. :ball:[/QUOTE]
> I just noticed there's 80q questionnaire. HOLY SHIT NO.
> 
> [MENTION=229794]shinynotshiny you might want to take
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as well as both squares and add to your questionnaire.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ you might want to take
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as well as both squares and add to your questionnaire.


I'm already working on it 

I'll fill out the whole thing because why not.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm already working on it
> 
> *I'll fill out the whole thing* because why not.












I just filled Ti vs Te in my mind and it looks like I am definitely Ti.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> I just filled Ti vs Te in my mind and it looks like I am definitely Ti.


As Shiny would say, "_Revelation._"


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> As Shiny would say, "_Revelation._"


----------



## Immolate

:toast:


:gentleman:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

:brocoli:


----------



## Greyhart

So I made a custom map with about 400-500 planets around oNE STAR. Anyway, I fucked up by placing too many pirate starbases and uncolonizable objects like magnetic storms and gas giants around my starting planet. So it's been 8+ hours and I am forced to dance my fleet around both planets that I already colonized and planets that I trying to colonize because pirates are everywhere and their attacks slow down my expansion so I can't create fleet powerful enough to wipe the fuckers out. And I still didn't see my ACTUAL enemies on this map. I hope they are getting fucked by pirates worse than I am.

Morale of this story - when you pick a capital planet makes sure there's no pirates and black holes all around it.

I could re-do this map but I am already 8+ hours in, I'm not giving up to some pixels!


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I could re-do this map but I am already 8+ hours in, I'm not giving up to some pixels!


:encouragement:


----------



## Barakiel

Man, it's rather tough deciding how much I should write for the Enneagram questionaire. :wink: @alittlebear, any tips?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Man, it's rather tough deciding how much I should write for the Enneagram questionaire. :wink: @alittlebear, any tips?


Write as much as you need to to sufficiently answer the question you were asked to.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Write as much as you need to to sufficiently answer the question you were asked to.


... Yeah... But I keep on writing too little, and reading over yours, no offence, but there's so much shit on there. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Write as much as you need to to sufficiently answer the question you were asked to.


But what someone thinks is sufficient sometimes isn't so for others :boxing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I mean, wrote what you mind/heart/soul/whatever thing tells you. What is the answer to you?

I would obviously be more inclined to tell too much rather than too little. Too little brings mistypes and people not even wanting to comment, because you've given them nothing to work with. Yet I wouldn't babble for the sake of babbling. If you want to say a sentence, think about the question again and answer more deeply
@Barakiel is that more helpful?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> ... Yeah... But I keep on writing too little, and reading over yours, no offence, but there's so much shit on there. :laughing:


Ah, and there's not crap on mine. I do take that a bit unkindly. Those were the answers I found sufficient, and they don't even begin to cover how deeply my true answers would be. If you see it as crap, you aren't appreciating it fully. Which shows your capacity to understand my meaning... but... I don't know, this does seem just rather unkind and I do not appreciate you saying it. It may be your true thoughts, but your true thoughts on this matter are shallow and rude.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Sorry. Hybrid so very unkind of _me_ to say. But I put a lot of thought into that questionnaire, and put a lot of _me_ into that questionnaire, and it is very hurtful to me that you would say that it was "filled with crap." I know you did not mean it so abrasive oh, that is only how you are, but it did strike me in a very sharp way.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Ah, and there's not crap on mine. I do take that a bit unkindly. Those were the answers I found sufficient, and they don't even begin to cover how deeply my true answers would be. If you see it as crap, you aren't appreciating it fully. Which shows your capacity to understand my meaning... but... I don't know, this does seem just rather unkind and I do not appreciate you saying it. It may be your true thoughts, but your true thoughts on this matter are shallow and rude.


Hm, interesting point to get angry over, what I meant to say was that there's so much on there, my apologies for being rude. It's mainly because, well, I can't write that much, not at all, so I consider it superfluous. I don't see it as crap, it was simply the most direct way I could phrase it.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> ... Yeah... But I keep on writing too little, and reading over yours, no offence, but there's so much shit on there. :laughing:


Stop comparing yourself to other people. Write what you want. No more, no less.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Hm, interesting point to get angry over, what I meant to say was that there's so much on there, my apologies for being rude. It's mainly because, well, I can't write that much, not at all, so I consider it superfluous. I don't see it as crap, it was simply the most direct way I could phrase it.


It's alright. I'm sorry. I really don't know why I took that so tenderly. I think I could just be defensive about that post in general... Regardless the reason why I reacted explosively, it was inappropriate and I apologize for it. I understand your meaning, and under less sensitive circumstances I think I would have understood it right away.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Stop comparing yourself to other people. Write what you want. No more, no less.


Yes... but then I don't feel like writing anything, at least if I compare myself to what @alittlebear writes, for instance, I know how to frame the answer, and just need to dig deep inside myself. The problem is, if I don't do that, there's nothing to find when I dig deep, like I have nothing to say. Maybe it's introvertedness, I don't know, but it's a rather uncomfortable feeling.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> It's alright. I'm sorry. I really don't know why I took that so tenderly. I think I could just be defensive about that post in general... Regardless the reason why I reacted explosively, it was inappropriate and I apologize for it. I understand your meaning, and under less sensitive circumstances I think I would have understood it right away.


We each have our sore spots, not my decision to say whether it's unjustified or not, and it's perfectly reasonable for you to be touchy about a post detailing who you are, you don't need to apologize. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Im halfway through block 3 of the questionnaire. It only took me forever 

Unfortunately I can't finish it until later today. Is anyone else trying it? @fair phantom?


----------



## Darkbloom

shinynotshiny said:


> Im halfway through block 3 of the questionnaire. It only took me forever
> 
> Unfortunately I can't finish it until later today. Is anyone else trying it? @fair phantom?


You doing 80 questions?


----------



## Immolate

Living dead said:


> You doing 80 questions?



Yup


----------



## Persephone Soul

*


----------



## aendern

From reading this thread about Si, I have come to sort of a realization or connection/mini-epiphany of sorts.


There is this "INTJ" male who used to post on this forum quite regularly and was very outspoken against transgender people.

His issue was that transgender males (FTM) and transgender females (MTF) did not fit congruently with his interpretation or definition or ideal or archetype of what it means to be a male or female.

To me it seemed like he had some sort of ideal in his mind of what a female should be like and what a male should be like, and because transgender people transcend or go against his ideals, he sort of rejected them and felt quite an outspoken repulsion towards them, refusing to accommodate their preferred pronouns and names. Rejecting and feeling repulsed by the very idea that someone would ask that of him.

I couldn't help but wonder if maybe perhaps that was unhealthy Si that he was tapping into.




angelcat said:


> One other nuance of Si, unfortunately, is a lack of reality. I see this in Si's all the time, where reality -- actual reality -- is displaced by personal myth, or the way they WANT to see the object. Thus, an unattractive person becomes the most handsome person they have ever seen in their mind, because they love that person. Or totally amoral and awful behavior is ignored or romanticized out of a lack of ability to see reality, to separate the archetype from the myth and find the truth. Sansa Stark comes to mind as an example -- she sees Joffrey not for who he is, but who she wants him to be; she makes him into the image she wants to behold, which is in no way drawn from who he actually is.
> 
> *Outsiders, even Si users, can see the reality the Si-user themselves cannot, but are blind to their own projections in their own life. (Until they realize their view is subjective -- and then, in my case, all my suppositions are brought under a magnifying glass and immediately seen as suspect. Do I remember the truth, or an impression?)*
> 
> A line from the recent _Cinderella_ comes to mind -- she saw the world not as it is, but as it could be. *In a sense, we are repulsed by reality, and hate it, because it is not how it OUGHT to be.*


It was like he refused to accept alternative possibilities of what it might mean to be male or female because they conflicted with this concept of male and female that he had internalized so strongly.

I think he thought himself to be speaking from a place of objective reality, when in reality objective reality was staring him right in the face all along and he chose to ignore it. Because he didn't like it. Or didn't agree with it.


Thankfully he doesn't post anymore. He got banned too many times I guess !


(I don't at all want to espouse the idea that Si is close-minded, but I realize that that is a potential repercussion of bringing this up. Please bear in mind that he was probably an unhealthy individual who desperately needed an ENFP in his life lol)


----------



## 68097

@emberfly: could have been Si, yes. Though, I've known real-deal Ni-doms who don't like the idea of transgender people either, so I suspect that it crosses over to some degree.

OT: what kind of a personality says they are coming over, and they'll wing the directions because they have a "vague idea" of where you live, and then phones up lost because they went 20 miles in the wrong direction, after you sent them the directions? I've been thinking this woman is an IXFP. For any INFP lurkers, do you just... wing stuff like that? Assume you can find your way?

I don't. Not at all. I get directions and a map, and double-check everything on my way, and arrive on time.


----------



## aendern

angelcat said:


> @emberfly: could have been Si, yes. Though, I've known real-deal Ni-doms who don't like the idea of transgender people either, so I suspect that it crosses over to some degree.
> 
> OT: what kind of a personality says they are coming over, and they'll wing the directions because they have a "vague idea" of where you live, and then phones up lost because they went 20 miles in the wrong direction, after you sent them the directions? I've been thinking this woman is an IXFP. For any INFP lurkers, do you just... wing stuff like that? Assume you can find your way?
> 
> I don't. Not at all. I get directions and a map, and double-check everything on my way, and arrive on time.


I would totally do that  . . . 

I'm your typical male stereotype--terrible with spatial awareness and directions. Immediately forget them and too arrogant to consult help. Think I'm smart enough to figure it out and wing it. I'm usually not 

But. Luckily nowadays I have a TomTom, so now I don't have to get _too _lost.


But that's totally me. I feel like I grasp something and get the gist, and then I try it out myself and realize I don't know jack shit actually. Try to run before I can even walk sort of thing. Terribly bored by the basics.


----------



## 68097

She has been to my house twice. It's only 20 minutes away. There's only 4 turns! It's in the country, so there's only one turn-off where you could get it wrong. I just... can't. LOL

With me, I'm super careful, and follow directions places, and double-check while I'm driving (or sewing or anything) because I'm very aware of my detachment from the environment and unsure of my memory / ability to internalize information. I get dates wrong, sometimes reverse numbers in my head, etc. It's a mess, so I'm doubly careful, because I don't want to make a mistake.


----------



## ElliCat

fair phantom said:


> I don't know about @ElliCat , but I was referring to things like: someone claiming Obama is a muslim and/or not a US citizen and when I try to get them to see reason they cry: OPINION! Or "welfare recipients are mostly lazy black people - OPINION!"


That's exactly what I was referring to. 



fair phantom said:


> In the past, and sometimes now, I usually felt my anger was unjustified or at least useless. For me this was largely due to low self esteem.
> ...
> 
> Otherwise it was wrong because who was I to be angry? so I suppressed it, or shoved it aside, only giving it expression when I was too tired or emotional to control it. At the worst, I turned it inward. I directed all the anger I felt I couldn't express at myself


:whoa: GET OUTTA MY BRAIN WOMAN



fair phantom said:


> SAME. Yes everything looked chaotic but I usually only had trouble finding things if someone had gone through and "organized" things.


You don't know how many times I tried to explain it to her! I don't know if she believes me yet. Luckily I don't live at home anymore...



> Ugh I hate when people think it is okay to say something discriminatory because it is just their "opinion". Especially because when you try to argue against it you become some bad guy who is denying them their "right to their opinion."


Yes, like, I'm terribly sorry that I feel the need to remind you of the FACTS when you're getting off on sprouting your ignorant BS, but if you can't even bother to do a bit of research on this subject you supposedly feel so passionate about, I don't know that I should be giving you a platform for your rubbish...



> When people act like my problems don't matter because I don't have it as bad as them or some nonsense then I will probably stop telling them when I upset about things. Sharing gripes is one thing, invalidating my feelings is another.


That's what ends up happening. I've come to realise it's pretty common but it's still something I don't understand. People feel what they feel, and sometimes they feel less alone when they share it with someone. Is it really that difficult to just acknowledge it and then share how you feel, without turning it into some kind of competition?



> Well I am glad you took the plunge! I love having you around here. :joyous:














> Yes it is one thing when people repeat things twice, that is a common mistake, but some people tell me the same stories and jokes and "insights" over and over (one definitely has "bits" that he uses as if he was some stand-up). And I really don't want to be that way so I get annoyed with myself if I think I am.


YOU GET ME. HOW DO YOU GET ME



laurie17 said:


> Yes, it's why I find it difficult sometimes talking to be ESTP friend, because she's said she can be easily influenced by outside ideas so doesn't want to discuss certain things i.e. story ideas, which I love discussing because I'm not influenced at all.


I think I'm influenced a bit but I tend to either move on to something else after a while, or put my own spin on it and integrate it into myself. So I don't mind so much. I probably cared a bit more when I was dead set on being "original" but I gave up on that a few years ago, because I guess nothing is TRULY original anyway. I'd rather just make/give something from the heart.



> Haha, my mum tends to leave my stuff alone, although I do keep telling her to let me do the housework (she's very perfectionistic about it). We kind of bargained with each other about which areas I could put my things in and I wouldn't let them spread away from there, so it works as a system.


Mine doesn't understand why no one wants to help her with the housework - she thinks we're all just lazy and selfish - but it's because she's constantly telling us we're doing it wrong, just because we don't do things exactly the way she does them. There's only one right way, after all. :rollseyes:



> You're a good person, then! I had a terrible group member last semester who I had to chase for work until two days before the presentation was supposed to happen (needless to say, she did not memorise her part and it was the group's lowest presentation grade, despite discussing it with the lecturer).


Oooof that sucks. And no I'm definitely not a good person. If you want to see inferior Te in action, come chat with me while I'm in the middle of group work. It's hideous. 



> No, I'm not sure what it is... My older sister (ESFJ?) was extremely messy while she lived at home (although only in her bedroom), then suddenly became a neat-freak when she moved out. My ISFJ and ESFJ friends are pretty messy, but tidy up when people are coming over. My ESTP friend tries to tidy up and fails (when I was sleeping on her floor for a couple of nights, I nearly suffocated under the amount of dust and she'd kind of shoved all the mess up against one wall, which was kind of funny).


My (ESFJ?) sister is messy but also clean in a hygenic way. I think she goes into panic mode when she has actual visitors, but if it's only family visiting she'll make a half-hearted effort and make sure to tell us about it. :tongue2: I also go into panic mode but actually clean up properly regardless of who's visiting.... I get around this by rarely inviting people around. The ENTP doesn't notice mess and only occasionally gets agitated by the growing piles of stuff before I do. He also doesn't seem to understand why I want to clean up for visitors but I wonder if that's just a female vs. male socialisation thing. Or maybe a calm hippie mother vs. uptight traditional mother thing. 



> I can't stand the sort of 'pity competition' thing. I understand when people want to try and relate to others through their own experience, but trying to one-up them is irritating. *If you've only had a scratch, you're not aware of what a broken leg feels like, so it's useless to compare the two - everyone's suffering is personal and should be treated as such.*


EXACTLY. You can have your own opinions about how you would handle it and how you think they should handle it, but sometimes it's actually not that helpful to tell them about it? At least it never helps me. Just makes me feel like they don't care. 



> Hm, well I'm not sure if it rules out ISTJ entirely, it's just that my sister in particular noticed that I have a very... strong reaction to things that I consider unjust (For example, even when I was about five, when the teacher threatened to take away my sister's shoes because she was playing with the velcro, I took it as an injustice because my sister was just having fun, so glared at the teacher for the rest of the day - which was a big reaction from me at the time, because I was a very shy child). I'm currently trying to work out how to describe Fi and I'm coming up with things like a sort of surety in responses to things i.e. 'No, I won't like that', like a sort of immediate attraction or repulsion to something (although it may not happen until the thing is understood and may be altered afterwards).


That sounds alright to me? Especially seeing as you've added the bit about it not happening right away, and being subject to change. Often I have no initial opinion about things and it might only come with time and experience. Or I genuinely don't care because I don't place any value on it (i.e. it's not worth thinking about).



> Haha, I do get that feeling too, that it doesn't really matter what I think because the person should, and most likely will, make up their own mind, so I can leave my opinion if I want to, but it probably won't make that much difference overall. Sometimes I don't post because I don't like influencing what's happening.


Yeah the thought that I might be influencing someone in a wrong direction is always worrying. But then I always assume that people know themselves best, and sometimes someone says something that goes against that, and I get confused by that. So I can kind of understand in theory why someone would want so many outside opinions but I don't truly understand it. I always have the final say on my own typing and I want to give others that freedom, but I guess that's not helpful if they're looking for something more than that?



> Oh, she would leave bits of food or spills around the kitchen, so I assumed she was unhygienic. She was a nice person, mostly, but she shouldn't have been living away from home, because she couldn't handle cleaning up after herself.


I had housemates like that. They turned out to be not so nice though. Sometimes I wouldn't clean the kitchen (just my own messes) to see how long it'd take them to clean up after themelves. Standard was 1 - 2 weeks. And then they'd make a big deal about cleaning it up and it was like, yeah, congrats, I do this shit twice or three times a day? Welcome to being an adult?



> Yes! Well, now my cat's getting revenge on me for taking him by trying to eat my lunch... I'll swab his eye again later.


Isn't that normal cat behaviour? Your hoomin food is not for him so it must be better than whatever you're giving him?



> It was me who didn't know about secondhand mirrors being bad luck, but this coincidence has me convinced. :ghost3:


Spooky! :smiley_simmons:

:sleepytime: 'Night all!


----------



## aendern

angelcat said:


> She has been to my house twice. It's only 20 minutes away. There's only 4 turns! It's in the country, so there's only one turn-off where you could get it wrong. I just... can't. LOL
> 
> With me, I'm super careful, and follow directions places, and double-check while I'm driving (or sewing or anything) because I'm very aware of my detachment from the environment and unsure of my memory / ability to internalize information. I get dates wrong, sometimes reverse numbers in my head, etc. It's a mess, so I'm doubly careful, because I don't want to make a mistake.


That's very smart of you. I would find that just oh so boring. I think it's more fun to throw in a little adventure and burn the map. Run around and try to figure it all out yourself.

I'm an idiot, I know.


----------



## ElliCat

angelcat said:


> OT: what kind of a personality says they are coming over, and they'll wing the directions because they have a "vague idea" of where you live, and then phones up lost because they went 20 miles in the wrong direction, after you sent them the directions? I've been thinking this woman is an IXFP. For any INFP lurkers, do you just... wing stuff like that? Assume you can find your way?
> 
> I don't. Not at all. I get directions and a map, and double-check everything on my way, and arrive on time.


Ummm.... I check it quickly before I leave, assume I'll remember when I get there, and if I don't remember it I'll figure it out... then get to a certain point and get totally lost, but then be too ashamed to call someone and ask for help, because I'll probably find my way again really soon, and before I know it it's been like 2 hours, and.... yeah

sorry

I'm a traitor to my own species

I mean type

it could be INFP


----------



## Greyhart

Can't edit my original post in questionnaire thread anymore, ugh. I kept adding and adding...



angelcat said:


> OT: what kind of a personality says they are coming over, and they'll wing the directions because they have a "vague idea" of where you live, and then phones up lost because they went 20 miles in the wrong direction, after you sent them the directions? I've been thinking this woman is an IXFP. For any INFP lurkers, do you just... wing stuff like that? Assume you can find your way?
> 
> I don't. Not at all. I get directions and a map, and double-check everything on my way, and arrive on time.


Me probably.



emberfly said:


> Please bear in mind that he was probably an unhealthy individual *who desperately needed an ENFP in his life* lol)


Oi, I'm super open-minded too. Mostly because I don't care about having a thing against something but it counts too.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart

SFJ hate is still abundant but once upon a time...


Dear lord. In polls ESFJs were always last. Unintelligent, shallow, boring..... fearful of deep conversation.... purists...

They all saw us as Taylor Swift of Paris Hilton (I think ESTJ) or something.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Im halfway through block 3 of the questionnaire. It only took me forever
> 
> Unfortunately I can't finish it until later today. Is anyone else trying it? @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=228218" target="_blank">fair phantom</a></i></span>?


I am, but I am doing that thing where I answer a few questions. go and do something else for a few hours. answer a few more questions. go and do something else. repeat. And usually when I am answering questions I am also doing something else. It is taking awhile.



angelcat said:


> OT: what kind of a personality says they are coming over, and they'll wing the directions because they have a "vague idea" of where you live, and then phones up lost because they went 20 miles in the wrong direction, after you sent them the directions? I've been thinking this woman is an IXFP. For any INFP lurkers, do you just... wing stuff like that? Assume you can find your way?
> 
> I don't. Not at all. I get directions and a map, and double-check everything on my way, and arrive on time.


I don't drive and I mostly get places by public transit so that is kind of a different thing. I need to at least check to find out what buses/metros I need to take. But I am inclined in general to wing things (though I have my iphone with me in case I get lost), unless it is very important for me to be there at a certain time. Especially if I am just walking, because it is more fun to wander and see what I come upon along the way. 

@ElliCat sometimes it feels like you are my southern hemisphere counterpart :semi-twins: :love_heart:

I'll just drop this here. I'll probably delete it fairly soon because I look wretched and I was tired and all my nervous tics are active. Next time my goal is to make a video under 40 minutes. :distrust:


----------



## Immolate

@fair phantom I'll be home soon(ish) don't delete~


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Anger is so intense.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In regards to other people...
> 
> I cannot deal with it. I am completely awkward. I know everyone claims to be awkward, and misplaces their awkwardness... let's just be honest. I am always hesitant to call myself awkward out of fear I am one of those socially affluent people believing they are something they cannot understand. But I over-apologize. I might not even make eye contact. Blunt, nearly monotonous, rigid prosody. I am not this way in my everyday life, but when people are angry I am a rabbit and I want to flea. I'm so terrible and easily intimated in these situations.
> 
> Of course it depends on how we define anger. When people are just caustically and cynically commenting, like George Carlin, whatever. You could call that irritation or agitation over anger. I can handle that.
> 
> But anger? No. I don't know what to say. You can easily manipulate me in those situations. Hell... I think you can possibly even see what I mean a bit earlier in this thread... sometimes I just can't do it. I can picture it right now and forget it.
> 
> Anger in myself? Well I do stupid things when I am angry. I embarrass myself. I become self destructive. Environmentally stupid. I over explain. I break my computer. I am stupid and I want to pull out my hair due to a lack of self worth. I am burning and fuming and no ounce of water can kill it. I burn down the entire forest. It feels so good at the time, and I look back at the ashes and shame swallows anger until I chew on my cud and get angry all over again.
> 
> Anger... I am so happy anger exists. When anger is healthy, it is passion. Anger creates protests, and protests promote awareness and change. Anger inspires improvement, to work upon yourself, to do better.. to create a change! To get people to listen to you. It punishes the deserved (within reason of course). It can create art. Make art, not war, they say. Give a serial killer paintbrushes instead of guns. He'll produce interesting things (I loved John Wayne Gacy's art... do I believe art would have prevented him from killing... well no... but use that anger to produce art rather than to slash your thighs or your ex's tires or kill yourself or other people.... and you'll be glad you did).
> 
> I love when I use my anger productively. Otherwise it is the death of me. Especially because I suppress anger. "It's ok. It's fine. Whatever." Nope... it's really not ok... but I'll forget about it... until finally a flame is ignited. You wouldn't like me when I am angry. Incredible Hulk status.
> 
> Anger within other people? Forget it.


Oh, I guess I have this kind of anger too (I mean, I have broken /multiple/ computers or gone on self-destructive rampages...but for me, it doesn't feel like anger (anger is a white-hot, righteous feeling according to my consideration) but frustration, a muddy, trying-to-break-out-of-the-tower feeling, like "I can't think clearly so I'm just going to do something to get things straightened out". Which obviously just makes things worse but...at that moment it feels like anything would be better than nothing, or I have too much energy to not do something and the most obvious approach is the most destructive. Not in a serial killer way though, I promise)) I'm not a dangerous person)
But yeah, for me my worst moments aren't really anger, like I'm self-assured and know I'm right, but frustration, like I feel like I'm on the highway to hell and just decide I need to be in the fast lane)


----------



## Dangerose

(How do you guys make your videos so long?? I think the longest I ever had was 12 minutes and by the end I was going in circles?)


----------



## Darkbloom

Oswin said:


> (How do you guys make your videos so long?? I think the longest I ever had was 12 minutes and by the end I was going in circles?)


Could it be Ne influence?Maybe higher Ji?

edit:not sure about videos but when I had to write something in school,like an essay I said it all in very few words,or at least I felt I did.Like,everything else I could add seemed so related and similar to what I already said


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> @fair phantom I'll be home soon(ish) don't delete~


I'll leave it up for a few hours.



Oswin said:


> (How do you guys make your videos so long?? I think the longest I ever had was 12 minutes and by the end I was going in circles?)


Haha I have no idea. Overthinking? Fidgeting? Being unable to settle on one thing? It's weird I feel like I do not usually talk that much in person unless I am interested in the topic.



Living dead said:


> Could it be Ne influence?Maybe higher Ji?
> 
> edit:not sure about videos but when I had to write something in school,like an essay I said it all in very few words,or at least I felt I did.Like,everything else I could add seemed so related and similar to what I already said


Makes as much sense as anything.

haha unless it was an in-class essay my tendency was to write too much. It was not uncommon for me to be assigned a 5-page essay, and to have the rough draft to be 11-13 pages. Once during my first year of uni the draft was 16 page and my roommate was like "WTH?!" I got a bit better as time went on...a bit.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

How do you guys get people to respond to your questionnaires in the first place? I mean, I get that I didn't write much in mine, and just kind of went by instinct but...I swear I'm refreshing the Socionics forum every 10 minutes.

Maybe I just need to be more patient.


----------



## owlet

I'm finally home. I've been out socialising :whoa: so I'm in a sort of dead-mind daze at the moment. So I'll just reply to simple things until tomorrow morning. (I'm so tired but also have that weird tension I get after seeing friends which prevents me from sleeping. Maybe I'm also basking in my Super Smash Bros glory, because I wasn't last.)



angelcat said:


> OT: what kind of a personality says they are coming over, and they'll wing the directions because they have a "vague idea" of where you live, and then phones up lost because they went 20 miles in the wrong direction, after you sent them the directions? I've been thinking this woman is an IXFP. For any INFP lurkers, do you just... wing stuff like that? Assume you can find your way?
> 
> I don't. Not at all. I get directions and a map, and double-check everything on my way, and arrive on time.


No, I'm scared of getting lost and/or letting people down. It's inconvenient for both of us, it's also rude and a waste of time. I usually look at google maps if I don't know the area and work out the fastest route, be it on foot or by bus. My ISFP (?) friend, on the other hand, once got lost for hours when he was supposed to be at another friend's birthday meal and eventually just kind of strolled in. I was pretty angry.




ElliCat said:


> I think I'm influenced a bit but I tend to either move on to something else after a while, or put my own spin on it and integrate it into myself. So I don't mind so much. I probably cared a bit more when I was dead set on being "original" but I gave up on that a few years ago, because I guess nothing is TRULY original anyway. I'd rather just make/give something from the heart.
> 
> 
> Mine doesn't understand why no one wants to help her with the housework - she thinks we're all just lazy and selfish - but it's because she's constantly telling us we're doing it wrong, just because we don't do things exactly the way she does them. There's only one right way, after all. :rollseyes:
> 
> 
> Oooof that sucks. And no I'm definitely not a good person. If you want to see inferior Te in action, come chat with me while I'm in the middle of group work. It's hideous.
> 
> 
> My (ESFJ?) sister is messy but also clean in a hygenic way. I think she goes into panic mode when she has actual visitors, but if it's only family visiting she'll make a half-hearted effort and make sure to tell us about it. :tongue2: I also go into panic mode but actually clean up properly regardless of who's visiting.... I get around this by rarely inviting people around. The ENTP doesn't notice mess and only occasionally gets agitated by the growing piles of stuff before I do. He also doesn't seem to understand why I want to clean up for visitors but I wonder if that's just a female vs. male socialisation thing. Or maybe a calm hippie mother vs. uptight traditional mother thing.
> 
> 
> EXACTLY. You can have your own opinions about how you would handle it and how you think they should handle it, but sometimes it's actually not that helpful to tell them about it? At least it never helps me. Just makes me feel like they don't care.
> 
> 
> That sounds alright to me? Especially seeing as you've added the bit about it not happening right away, and being subject to change. Often I have no initial opinion about things and it might only come with time and experience. Or I genuinely don't care because I don't place any value on it (i.e. it's not worth thinking about).
> 
> 
> Yeah the thought that I might be influencing someone in a wrong direction is always worrying. But then I always assume that people know themselves best, and sometimes someone says something that goes against that, and I get confused by that. So I can kind of understand in theory why someone would want so many outside opinions but I don't truly understand it. I always have the final say on my own typing and I want to give others that freedom, but I guess that's not helpful if they're looking for something more than that?
> 
> 
> I had housemates like that. They turned out to be not so nice though. Sometimes I wouldn't clean the kitchen (just my own messes) to see how long it'd take them to clean up after themelves. Standard was 1 - 2 weeks. And then they'd make a big deal about cleaning it up and it was like, yeah, congrats, I do this shit twice or three times a day? Welcome to being an adult?
> 
> 
> Isn't that normal cat behaviour? Your hoomin food is not for him so it must be better than whatever you're giving him?
> 
> 
> Spooky! :smiley_simmons:
> 
> :sleepytime: 'Night all!


I'm not sure if maybe it's an underconfidence thing for her - that she might hear another person's ideas and think 'those are better than mine' or that hers have less value because they don't match up to what others think of about the same storyline. I'm guessing a bit as she doesn't like talking about stuff like that.

Ah, I have an unusually equal relationship with my mum. There's no real hierarchy, so we tend to discuss issues on an equal footing, make deals and compromises etc. So, when she's complained about me not doing something a couple of times, I've said that I didn't know it was supposed to be done and if she wanted me to do it, I would do it from then on, but it wasn't fair to expect me to read her mind and just know it should be done. 

Haha, I can deal with inferior Te, just not people saying 'Oh yes, of course I'll do that' and... not doing it. How do you counter that? 'Well, you're not doing it'? It's very confusing...

My older sister just tells everyone not to make crumbs or move things or let the kids have all their toys out at once etc... It was an interesting moment when my mum got her kids magic sand and it fell onto the carpet.
I don't really tidy up for visitors, but then I don't really have much to tidy. I might have a book or two on the sofa, but most of it it either on or under tables, or all up in my room (I don't like even friends going into my room very much unless it's just to sleep, so we stay downstairs - I have a thing about people sitting or lying on my bed).
I think it might be a socialisation thing, because my ESTP friend likes to deliberately go against social norms - or did - so she kept everything messy.

I think it might depend on the experience - if they've had a similar thing happen, they might have good insights, but if it's something like you broke something you liked and are sad about it, having someone tell you they also broke something doesn't make your thing any less broken and it feels almost like you have to split the sad between you, rather than it just being yours.

Phew, I'm glad it seems to work :ghost3: I usually only gain an opinion on something when I understand it well enough and if I find that I care one way or the other, which is usually a surprise to me until it happens (if it ever does).

I have the same thing (in other words, that's exactly how I feel about it so I can't think of how to elaborate because you've summed it up perfectly).

Oh no, that's horrible :dispirited: I can't stand housemates doing that. My sister had a standoff about emptying the bin, because my housemate had dropped out of university and so was doing nothing all day, yet still me and my sister were having to empty the bin. It took... 3 weeks maybe? And it was overflowing at that point. Standoffs are a terrible experience.

Haha, I think it was because I had cheese. He actually climbed onto the arm of the sofa and loomed over me though, which is unusual. It was a bit scary.

Very spooky! I'm very scared :ghost:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> (How do you guys make your videos so long?? I think the longest I ever had was 12 minutes and by the end I was going in circles?)


It's a conscious thing.

You could see a stark contrast in my deleted video and the one I still have left up.

I force words to flow out of my mouth on camera.... just whatever comes to mind. I don't think... I just say, and it ends up being quite the rabbit trail.

If I didn't do that... I would be boring on camera. I also have a tendency to never stay on topic. It helps. So do questionnaires, since I answer those very thoroughly. 

Socialization can be forced.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> haha unless it was an in-class essay my tendency was to write too much. It was not uncommon for me to be assigned a 5-page essay, and to have the rough draft to be 11-13 pages. Once during my first year of uni the draft was 16 page and my roommate was like "WTH?!" I got a bit better as time went on...a bit.


Still a struggle in college. At least I no longer hear "Um... I didn't ask you to write a college level essay" like I did in HS.

I can't write based on a standard. I'd rather choose what I'd like to write and particularly the way in which I convey the topic I choose. Formal learning is a death sentence.

Also you're overthinking. You come across as elegant as always in that video.


----------



## wastethenight

^ Aw man I definitely have the opposite problem. I often struggle to adequately articulate what I'm truly thinking at all, unless it's a topic I think I deeply understand. Teachers seem to think I'm a good writer but my work always seems either too shallow or too overdone to me_. _

Also I hate planning essays? Like with a passion. and I hate reediting them. I like to wait until something just jumps out at me and then I end up writing the whole thing in one go as it strikes and then send it off.


----------



## Immolate

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> How do you guys get people to respond to your questionnaires in the first place? I mean, I get that I didn't write much in mine, and just kind of went by instinct but...I swear I'm refreshing the Socionics forum every 10 minutes.
> 
> Maybe I just need to be more patient.



This is probably the first time I got a lot of replies on a questionnaire, and that's because there was a small bit of drama. I'm sure you'll be luckier


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

I've always had a bit of a hard time meeting length requirements for essays - I never seem to have much to say on any given subject. The idea of writing 20 pages when the instructor asked for 5 is kind of weird to me - I probably wouldn't be able to write 20 pages if that was the limit. :/

So yeah, no idea what happens with you guys.


----------



## wastethenight

I can ramble occasionally if I think it's critical to illustrating my point but idk, I think I get the sense that whatever's obvious to me goes without saying. I have occasionally been told I'm too vague.


----------



## Persephone Soul

So ummm... this is kinda how I blow up.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Still a struggle in college. At least I no longer hear "Um... I didn't ask you to write a college level essay" like I did in HS.
> 
> I can't write based on a standard. I'd rather choose what I'd like to write and particularly the way in which I convey the topic I choose. Formal learning is a death sentence.
> 
> Also you're overthinking. You come across as elegant as always in that video.


Heh at my highschool college-level writing was demanded, at least once I hit my junior year.

Yes I'm so elegant with my squinting eyes and constantly moving arms and fidgety fussing over my hair. :rolldeyes:

If I make another video I think I'm going to make sure I can't see what is being recorded. I think seeing myself makes me more nervy.

@voodoodoll I don't do much planning with my essays, but unless I run out of time I tend to edit obsessively. And i have to edit to get the page count down. Profs will sometimes tolerate writing 1 page over, but not 10. :laughing:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> Heh at my highschool college-level writing was demanded, at least once I hit my junior year.
> 
> Yes I'm so elegant with my squinting eyes and constantly moving arms and fidgety fussing over my hair. :rolldeyes:
> 
> If I make another video I think I'm going to make sure I can't see what is being recorded. I think seeing myself makes me more nervy.


Kirsten Stewart is notorious for playing with her hair.

Made me feel better about it myself; everyone mentions it.


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> I'll just drop this here. I'll probably delete it fairly soon because I look wretched and I was tired and all my nervous tics are active. Next time my goal is to make a video under 40 minutes. :distrust:


You're so pretty! 

I didn't listen to it all, but ... you remind me a lot of my ENFP friend. The tone of voice, the quiet sense of presence, the deliberation of your words. But in general... I sensed Fi.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Honestly Fair Phantom (or should I call you Maureen) if we knew each other we'd talk for hours.

I love how open you are in terms of spirituality. Beautiful! So rare to find.

Also your views on war are nearly identical to mind. I was vehemently against war until I learned more about World War II. Most wars in retrospect were deemed useless or counterproductive.


----------



## Greyhart

Great secret of writing an essay - take the same thought and rephrase it 5 times each. Teacher might notice it but if you write it in a language that suggests that you are ~inspired by topic~ they won't be able to really say against it.


----------



## Dangerose

Sorry, I know everyone's over it but I'm still stuck on Rebecca:
_Rebecca_ seems perhaps like the perfect example of an (evilish) ENFJ?
Mrs Danvers: Unhealthy Si and Fi, probably ISTJ
Maxim: Perhaps also an STJ, he might have some inferior Ne going on (I can't possibly tell my new wife about my old wife because omg what would happen)
Narrator: Either ISFJ imo or a Fe-dom who life has brought down
Come to think of it I can't think of strong evidence from the book suggesting Si or Ni, mostly you get Fe from her. It would be kinda cool if she was ENFJ like Rebecca, it would add a whole other layer to the whole thing

Rebecca: 2w3
Maxim: 6w5?
Danvers: No clue
Narrator: Also a 6? maybe a 9? not sure

Ok I think this is why I liked this story so much, Rebecca is secretly me, a ENFJ 2. Which is making me _really_ like the theory that the narrator is also secretly Rebecca, a totally different kind of ENFJ (2 even?) although she does seem like the typical ISFJ, I don't know, I'd have to look at the book)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I have a hard time with physical art... but I try to use it in the same way I like to use literature. To see the world. To understand it better. To know it better, and compress the knowledge I already hold of the world better. It's not necessary for me to relate to the subject... at all. In fact, I prefer it if I don't... since that muddles things. And I usually feel I have no right to connect with such a deep character, figure, story.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I just took a cpl function tests yesterday for shits and giggles... I am aware they are not fully dependable. But still. Wow. Lol


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I have a hard time with physical art... but I try to use it in the same way I like to use literature. To see the world. To understand it better. To know it better, and compress the knowledge I already hold of the world better. It's not necessary for me to relate to the subject... at all. In fact, I prefer it if I don't... since that muddles things. *And I usually feel I have no right to connect with such a deep character, figure, story.*


You really need to work on this. Of course you have the right to connect with deep characters, figures, stories. That's what they're there for. And . . . you're awesome, if you don't have a right to connect with things, who does?

I had trouble with physical/visual art until I had an Art History class and got an idea of what was meant by things. I started to appreciate the deeper meaning of the artwork. It's still not my first language but I have a little platform to look off of now.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> You really need to work on this. Of course you have the right to connect with deep characters, figures, stories. That's what they're there for. And . . . you're awesome, if you don't have a right to connect with things, who does?
> 
> I had trouble with physical/visual art until I had an Art History class and got an idea of what was meant by things. I started to appreciate the deeper meaning of the artwork. It's still not my first language but I have a little platform to look off of now.


I suppose that's true... about us being supposed to connect with them? Still I'm not sure - I think art is mostly to give meaning or be a representation of other people - but I guess there's no harm if I relate (as long as it's not about like a serial killer or anything). It feels false to me, but eh. 

I would love to take an Art History class. I've heard a lecture by an Art History professor, but little more. 

Hmm. In other news... I think I have light synesthesia? I can't stop tasting colors and sounds. It's getting annoying, because I taste broccoli every time I see trees and it was cool at first but now it's just like... I don't know, broccoli tastes okay but after a while it's annoying... especially for a tree lover like me, who just wants to appreciate trees, not taste them. The cover of the current book I'm reading tastes like Fruity Pebbles, songs still taste like fruit, and something tasted annoyingly like cotton candy the other day. 

Perhaps it's not officially synesthesia, but it is synesthesia like. I tried to explain to my parents, they don't understand. But we think it could very well be one of those natural things we all experience that I am just too in-tuned to, since I do that for a lot of things.


----------



## Dangerose

Wait wait wait though maybe this is a lower Ne conspiracy theory but my whole world has been rocked out of orbit in a really cool way
If Rebecca = ENFJ
and Narrator = ENFJ (which would be an unusual but not out-of-realm-of-possibility reading)
and then Mrs Danvers = ISTJ
and Max deWinter = ISTJ

then for the sake of argument this means that Rebecca=Narrator (not really but you know what I mean)
and Danvers=deWinter

Both Mrs D(anvers) and Mr D are doomed by their past, Max because he runs away from it and Danvers because she can't let go of it
But Mr D accepts Narrator, literally marrying her, and Mrs Danvers rejects her
Mrs Danvers is literally doomed, falls into hellfire because of her obsession with the past to the exclusion of the new (new Mrs deWinter)
Mr D escapes from damnation with Narrator, they are ok

This makes the 'Je reviens' plotline even more fateful and fascinating then just 'Rebecca's literal body returns'
and things like this:




"Orchids never die, they're special flowers
When you think they're gone, all *wilted and plain*
They are still a source of secret powers
Sometime overnight they'll bloom again
She passed away, that's what they say
But I know better"
...
"She's much too strong to die
She's undefeatable
She's *invisible*, but I know she can see and hear me
She's watching, she's near me"
(literally)
way more interesting

and even this:




"Mrs deWinter bin ich!" (Mrs deWinter is I!)
more about just being literally the new Mrs deWinter, mistress of Manderley
but literally, she is Mrs deWinter

...was this a really obvious interpretation that everyone but me was getting? I need to read the book in mind with this in mind


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I suppose that's true... about us being supposed to connect with them? Still I'm not sure - I think art is mostly to give meaning or be a representation of other people - but I guess there's no harm if I relate (as long as it's not about like a serial killer or anything). It feels false to me, but eh.
> 
> I would love to take an Art History class. I've heard a lecture by an Art History professor, but little more.
> 
> Hmm. In other news... I think I have light synesthesia? I can't stop tasting colors and sounds. It's getting annoying, because I taste broccoli every time I see trees and it was cool at first but now it's just like... I don't know, broccoli tastes okay but after a while it's annoying... especially for a tree lover like me, who just wants to appreciate trees, not taste them. The cover of the current book I'm reading tastes like Fruity Pebbles, songs still taste like fruit, and something tasted annoyingly like cotton candy the other day.
> 
> Perhaps it's not officially synesthesia, but it is synesthesia like. I tried to explain to my parents, they don't understand. But we think it could very well be one of those natural things we all experience that I am just too in-tuned to, since I do that for a lot of things.


I would recommend Helena Gardner's "Art Through the Ages" if you want to do research on your own, there are other good texts, but that one really was everything I needed to learn about Art History (and actual history as well)
I mean, it doesn't cover everything but I think it does a really good job of covering the basics


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> Oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really need to work on this. Of course you have the right to connect with deep characters, figures, stories. That's what they're there for. And . . . you're awesome, if you don't have a right to connect with things, who does?
> 
> I had trouble with physical/visual art until I had an Art History class and got an idea of what was meant by things. I started to appreciate the deeper meaning of the artwork. It's still not my first language but I have a little platform to look off of now.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose that's true... about us being supposed to connect with them? Still I'm not sure - I think art is mostly to give meaning or be a representation of other people - but I guess there's no harm if I relate (as long as it's not about like a serial killer or anything). It feels false to me, but eh.
> 
> I would love to take an Art History class. I've heard a lecture by an Art History professor, but little more.
> 
> Hmm. In other news... I think I have light synesthesia? I can't stop tasting colors and sounds. It's getting annoying, because I taste broccoli every time I see trees and it was cool at first but now it's just like... I don't know, broccoli tastes okay but after a while it's annoying... especially for a tree lover like me, who just wants to appreciate trees, not taste them. The cover of the current book I'm reading tastes like Fruity Pebbles, songs still taste like fruit, and something tasted annoyingly like cotton candy the other day.
> 
> Perhaps it's not officially synesthesia, but it is synesthesia like. I tried to explain to my parents, they don't understand. But we think it could very well be one of those natural things we all experience that I am just too in-tuned to, since I do that for a lot of things.
Click to expand...

Wait, this is a thing? Mine isn't quite the same, but for instance, I can look at it things and taste them, although I have never actually tasted them. It's the weirdest thing. Right now, lounging on my leather couch, I can taste the leather. No frickin lie. And my mouth isn't even touching it. I do this a lot. I thought I was just weird. That is kinda similar to what I am talking about with the art thing. I can actually feel the temperature etc 

is this similar to you at all? What is synesthesia?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> Wait, this is a thing? Mine isn't quite the same, but for instance, I can look at it hings and taste them, although I have never tasted them it's the weirdest thing. Right now, lounging on my leather couch, I can taste the leather. No frickin lie. And my mouth isn't even touching it. I do this a lot. I thought I was just weird. That is kinda similar to what I am talking about with the art thing. I can actually feel the temperature etc
> 
> is this similar to you at all? What is synesthesia?


You can look up synesthesia... I'm sure I would bastardize the definition. Basically it's a mixing of senses. I'm certain my sister experiences it, and she sees colors for words and songs. 

For me... I mean, yes, I can taste leather, but I'm sure that's normal? I always thought it was. Like knowing what boogers taste like even though you haven't eaten them... That might be synesthesia though I'm not sure. (I can taste leather too, and sheets, and television, but...) 

The weird thing to me about what I'm experiencing with the tree = broccoli is that... There's no reason for it. I can tell you what a leaf probably tastes like, and bark, I think that's normal, but... It's different when I look at trees. They don't taste like broccoli, obviously, but I taste broccoli? And certain grass tastes like parsley, even though I've only had that once, and maple tastes like Green Air heads and this other kind tastes like those little mint chocolate bars. Obviously they don't, but... My sense-mind says otherwise. 

I don't know. It's kind of annoying, but it's interesting. 

Looked up PTSD and synesthesia, got this 

Grapheme-color synesthesia and posttraumatic stress disorder: preliminary results from the veterans health study. - PubMed - NCBI

That's not the type I'm experiencing, but it could indicate something. I don't know. It's just a slightly comforting thought to me that I could have gotten a cool new perception thing from trauma and not just... [insert melodramatic thing here]. (I'm a bit miffed and (though I'm in denial about it) upset atm about having PTSD because a new show I wanted to watch is actually ridiculously triggering for me. This could put a lightly positive spin on it, lol.)


----------



## Dangerose

I have a similar thing, I don't think it's synesthesia but like...
Gold, I know what it tastes like. Kinda like how chocolate ought to taste (probably cause chocolate often has a gold wrapper)
Cake tastes like something that isn't cake, it tastes like...cake
Olives and fish and oil should also taste differently than how they should
Maybe it's Si? IDK, I think it's just a thing.
I realized a while ago, I'll eat too much because...I'm not wanting what I actually want, I have some idea that cake will taste like actual cake, which it never does. I want the idea of cake, not actual cake.

Which is actually good, I can just listen to Lana del Rey's "Young and Beautiful" to get the idea of cake.

Maybe I have it backwards from you, @alittlebear, I don't look at trees and think 'it tastes like broccoli', I'm more likely to look at broccoli and think 'this should taste like tree'


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> I would recommend Helena Gardner's "Art Through the Ages" if you want to do research on your own, there are other good texts, but that one really was everything I needed to learn about Art History (and actual history as well)
> I mean, it doesn't cover everything but I think it does a really good job of covering the basics


It's difficult for me to get ahold of books, honestly... Perhaps they would have this at my school library, though. Thank you for the recommendation, and I'll take a look for it when I can.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Wow. Very interesting ladies.

And thanks for the link Bear. I have 'Complex-PTSD', so, I wonder.... hmmm. Different trauma, different results...?


----------



## Dangerose

(I don't have PTSD, so whatever it is for me is just my own brain being silly with no prompting)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> (I don't have PTSD, so whatever it is for me is just my own brain being silly with no prompting)


I think that's what mine is too. Brains are just, well... weird. Lol


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> (I don't have PTSD, so whatever it is for me is just my own brain being silly with no prompting)


Oh no! It comes without PTSD. I think generally it comes on its own. I'm just wondering if PTSD could have changed my brain chemistry and brought me to show/have synesthesia, since this tasting broccoli thing is quite sudden. We already know that trauma has changed my brain and neuroscientist day in a very detrimental way, but... It'd be cool if it did something pretty too. Ah well.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Oh no! It comes without PTSD. I think generally it comes on its own. I'm just wondering if PTSD could have changed my brain chemistry and brought me to show/have synesthesia, since this tasting broccoli thing is quite sudden. We already know that trauma has changed my brain and neuroscientist day in a very detrimental way, but... It'd be cool if it did something pretty too. Ah well.


No, sorry, I knew what you meant, I was just talking)


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> Looks like it's up on YouTube on *this account*.
> 
> I thought he was pretty damn good as Max, though they changed some things in this adaptation. (I still think Hitchcock's is the best. So ... surreal and atmospheric.)


Yesss thank you! I'm excited. I don't expect the film to touch Hitchcock's (_Rebecca_ is actually in my top 3 Hitchcock films), but I look forward to the performance.



Oswin said:


> Sorry, I know everyone's over it but I'm still stuck on Rebecca:
> _Rebecca_ seems perhaps like the perfect example of an (evilish) ENFJ?
> Mrs Danvers: Unhealthy Si and Fi, probably ISTJ
> Maxim: Perhaps also an STJ, he might have some inferior Ne going on (I can't possibly tell my new wife about my old wife because omg what would happen)
> Narrator: Either ISFJ imo or a Fe-dom who life has brought down
> Come to think of it I can't think of strong evidence from the book suggesting Si or Ni, mostly you get Fe from her. It would be kinda cool if she was ENFJ like Rebecca, it would add a whole other layer to the whole thing
> 
> Rebecca: 2w3
> Maxim: 6w5?
> Danvers: No clue
> Narrator: Also a 6? maybe a 9? not sure
> 
> Ok I think this is why I liked this story so much, Rebecca is secretly me, a ENFJ 2. Which is making me _really_ like the theory that the narrator is also secretly Rebecca, a totally different kind of ENFJ (2 even?) although she does seem like the typical ISFJ, I don't know, I'd have to look at the book)


I'm delighted by how passionate you are about _Rebecca_!!! I love when something makes a person *light up* Honestly I don't think the Narrator is an ENFJ. It has been awhile since I read the book though, so I could be wrong! It is a fun idea, the narrator and Rebecca being the same type. Although I imagine there is some socionics relationship that could have them be different types and still linked in an interesting way.

@alittlebear @SugarPlum I think maybe the tasting leather might just be heightened senses? Since taste is so tied up with smell? I've only had one friend tell me about synesthesia and it was a different type so i don't know.

Also, @SugarPlum I can see you as an ISFP tbh. But I can also see INFP so I don't know. I couldn't read your test results. When I click on the attachments it just shows me a little thumbnail. :/


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> :tickled_pink:
> 
> Yesss thank you! I'm excited. I don't expect the film to touch Hitchcock's (_Rebecca_ is actually in my top 3 Hitchcock films), but I look forward to the performance.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm delighted by how passionate you are about _Rebecca_!!! I love when something makes a person *light up* Honestly I don't think the Narrator is an ENFJ. It has been awhile since I read the book though, so I could be wrong! It is a fun idea, the narrator and Rebecca being the same type. Although I imagine there is some socionics relationship that could have them be different types and still linked in an interesting way.
> 
> @alittlebear @SugarPlum I think maybe the tasting leather might just be heightened senses? Since taste is so tied up with smell? I've only had one friend tell me about synesthesia and it was a different type so i don't know.
> 
> Also, @SugarPlum I can see you as an ISFP tbh. But I can also see INFP so I don't know. I couldn't read your test results. When I click on the attachments it just shows me a little thumbnail. :/


Yeah, it's a long shot I know, but I'll have to look at the book and see if there's a case for it)


----------



## fair phantom

!!!!!!!!!!! Diana Rigg is Mrs Danvers amd Emilia Fox is The 2nd Mrs de Winter!!!!!! :glee:

Diana Rigg was interviewed over at the AV Club. I think she might be an ESTJ like The Queen of Thorns? She is so wonderfully frank in her responses.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> !!!!!!!!!!! Diana Rigg is Mrs Danvers amd Emilia Fox is The 2nd Mrs de Winter!!!!!! :glee:
> 
> Diana Rigg was interviewed over at the AV Club. I think she might be an ESTJ like The Queen of Thorns? She is so wonderfully frank in her responses.


Oh -- that Diana Rigg! Ooh, that'll be fun)


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Maybe we should name the heroine in Rebecca. Poor thing, she has no name. What name suits her?


Well, I'll just sit in the corner. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> Maybe we should name the heroine in Rebecca. Poor thing, she has no name. What name suits her?


OO! fun.

well I imagine it isn't a name well suited to being spoken affectionately, because otherwise I would think Maxim would have said it at _some_ point. Probably because I read _And Then There Were None_ recently, the first names coming to mind are Agatha, Agnes, and Vera.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Well, I'll just sit in the corner. :laughing:


Why? You have no brain? You know no names? You can still suggest names even if you haven't seen it.



fair phantom said:


> OO! fun.
> 
> well I imagine it isn't a name well suited to being spoken affectionately, because otherwise I would think Maxim would have said it at _some_ point. Probably because I read _And Then There Were None_ recently, the first names coming to mind are Agatha, Agnes, and Vera.


Hmm, Agnes might fit. I thought ... Mary or Maude. For some reason M-names are stuck in my head today.


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> Maybe we should name the heroine in Rebecca. Poor thing, she has no name. What name suits her?



I always thought the lack of name was sort of symbolic of how she was mild and understated compared to Rebecca, whose name is everywhere in the book (including the title). I kind of like her having no name :ghost3: (Or maybe her name was Rebecca all along?)


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Why? You have no brain? You know no names? You can still suggest names even if you haven't seen it.


In that case, The Narrator seems apt. :wink:


----------



## 68097

laurie17 said:


> (Or maybe her name was Rebecca all along?)


Had that been the case, I think Max would have had an aneurism when they met. LOL


----------



## owlet

angelcat said:


> Had that been the case, I think Max would have had an aneurism when they met. LOL


That is a good point! Though did she introduce herself as soon as they met? Maybe he just got used to her being very different beforehand and so hid any reaction to the name. I don't know, it's been a number of years since I read it :ball:


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> I always thought the lack of name was sort of symbolic of how she was mild and understated compared to Rebecca, whose name is everywhere in the book (including the title). I kind of like her having no name :ghost3: (Or maybe her name was Rebecca all along?)


Yeah I think that was the intention, but now that she has sort of overcome Rebecca, I think she should get a name.
@angelcat I could see either of those! Maud would be amusing because it is derived from Matlida which means "Might,strength" + "battle"


----------



## FearAndTrembling

The concept of ego is very Ni. It is the Hegelian dialectic. Two opposites are a creative process. You got the ID, which is primal instinct. Se in my case. Then you have the superego, which is what society says you should be. They are your conscience somewhat. People trying to repress the Id. The individual sees himself as a pawn in the game between supergo and id, so tries to resist both, thus creating ego. A mediating force between pleasure and civilization. It is the thing that is moving away from the jaws of the id and superego. It is its own thing. 

Imagine like two jaws enclosing on an object. For the object to escape, it must fit between the two opposites. It has to assume a certain form. The ego actually tailors itself as an escape route. Its very form is the result of escape. So its very form is still the result of superego and id. The boundaries of the ego begin where the id and superego end. So the ID and Superego, which the ego designed itself to escape, is a fundamental part of the new form. It is its progeny. Your ego is like a key. But the key is made in the image of the lock, even though it unlocks it. The key is still a slave to the lock.

Personalities are like key making. Si and Te push hard, and what escapes is Ni and Fe. Which is a reaction to Si and Te. Every single groove of that key is there for a reason.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Seems like I read something about this attitude and how it relates to either Fe or Fi, but I can't remember it. Now I'm annoyed with myself. I know that Fi doesn't like other people telling it what its own creation means, because other people can't possibly KNOW what the artist was thinking or feeling when it was created; but Fi is also more inclined to shrug and say, "Well, whatever it means to you is fine." So, this response would be... Fe? Maybe? I don't know anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> The narrator is your typical mousy, afraid-of-change ISFJ. Sadly.
> 
> Knowing how something would taste/feel/be like before you taste/feel/do/touch it it is often attributed to Se.


That makes sense. I don't know if it means anything or which one either. I tell yuh, everything is mixed from me! If I think about it more, I think I would actually be fine with people looking at it at a museum, or people I know coming to my house. I could just never SELL it, and allow a piece of my story in someone else's home, now becoming their story. Like, wth... it's mine lol. I made it for me, not them. If they understand that, then by all means, see what you want in it. Just remember this is my story you are finding a piece of your story in...not the other way around. That is a high standard to place on others, therefore,I would probably keep my art to myself and just show the ones who know the story before the art.

I have this silly color penciled "Family Portrait" I did in Art History (in HS). It is SO personal. But I had to have it on the wall for a gallery, and people came to look at it. It was very symbolic and personal, I don't think anyone could have related even if they wanted to lol. At the time (I was barely 15), my parents had us 5 siblings split up. My mom had 2 my dad had 3. It was literally like a division of good and Evil....

I had it divided into 2 realms; Heaven and Hell. My mom was portrayed as this huge, and perfect angel that took up most of the picture. In the center. I had my dad as a Lucifer himself, in the underworld surrounded my flames. The flames trickled up trying to reach us in the heaven realm. I was on a cloud, near my mom, with a halo and a tail. My now husband, then boyfriend was holding my hand. He even had his own baby cloud to catch the ashes of his cigarette (lol). My baby sister was a butterfly (she has always been a butterfly to me) and somehow she floated above the mess of the battle between good and evil (even though my dad at the time had custody of her). My BFF was the sun (in HS she was my light). My baby brother was a monkey with a halo (momma's boy). Then you had in the pits of hell, my dad...the Lucifer. My other kid brother was trapped in his flames. He had his hands up like 'I surrender" wearing a tail. He gave in to the enemy. My kid sister (now my best friend and 21, but then 8) had a halo and wings and her hands were reached up to the heavens for rescue. But my brother (demon/minion) and dad (satan) had her trapped.

There is so so SO much more symbolism in that, and I could be here all day explaining it, but that is the gist. There is a lot more to the back story and what the picture is actually saying. There is a message in it. And SO much little detail.

Everyone else in the class, had actual portraits. Typical familyies drawn and colored saying "cheese". I didn't even think twice. When the assignment was "do a family portrait", people were asking if they can take it home and have their families pose and crap. I was lost in my own little world, everyday... making this portrait, that would really paint the truth. Not some fake facade.

Anyhoo, I had to to a presentation (which I didn't know I was gonna have to do. OMG @[email protected] ). Everyone thought I was on acid, like "what the hell are you on, you flippin weirdo". I got an A, and they wanted me to give it to them for gallery purposes. I straight up told them, "Nope. Sorry, I just can't. You can borrow it for this upcoming gallery show, but then I keep it". I have kept every bit of my art I have ever done, regardless of the quality. Even when I draw characters like Mario Bros or My Little Pony etc, for my kids... it goes in their rooms, but I still keep it. My ISFJ (for SURE ISFJ), sister is a Senior in college and took many art classes. She gives me all her art to hang, because she doesn't make it for herself. I frickin love her s*** she makes, and it's what I decorate my house in. 

So anyway, not sure if anyone will actually read through all that, (I wouldn't blame anyone for not lol)... but there is the inside of my connection with my art. Your'e welcome.  lol


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Another thing.. I like this key analogy. Jung said that everything that irritates us about others, tells us about ourselves. We are all keys. We have tons of grooves. We are very unique. What happens when a key meets its lock? Every part of that groove is used. It is like a cavity search. It is uncomfortable. You are being checked at every step. I have to go through Fort Knox to get through to some functions.


----------



## Persephone Soul

This is awesome!
https://www.facebook.com/jac.elizabeth.7/posts/1462486990715179?notif_t=like


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> The narrator is your typical mousy, afraid-of-change ISFJ. Sadly.
> 
> Knowing how something would taste/feel/be like before you taste/feel/do/touch it it is often attributed to Se.


She's a good character though) Be proud to have her on your team)


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> She's a good character though) Be proud to have her on your team)


I don't like her much. She's too cowed. Too insecure. I feel sorry for her, but she did start to come into her own later in the book -- when Max needed her. And hopefully their life away from Manderlay was better. 

@SugarPlumb: I think you're ISFP. I can't see much Ne, but you show some Ni once in awhile.


----------



## Dangerose

(Old topic by now but I sleep late, I miss all the good ones)
I consistently write way under the required word limit. In 4th grade my teacher had me do an exercise where I would highlight a random sentence and turn it into one page. I'll still try that sometimes. Writing essays...I got ok at knowing how long they'd have to be and timing them to that length but . . . I was still stretching out every sentence as far as it could go. 
When I was trying to write novels, it was a disaster, I'd end up -- like clockwork -- with 50,000 words. Then go back...have I added enough scene descriptors? Ok, set the mood, set the mood...do I have enough philosophical dalliances a la Hugo or Proust? Can't go without those...there, that's 60k...ok, I'll just add a whole extra plot line. Perfect. 50k actual novel, 30k fluff.

Compare to my (ENTP? Ne's in there somewhere) friend, who in every essay ended up consistently with...20, 30 pages if it was supposed to be a 5 page paper. "Do you think it's too long?" "It is obviously too long." "But there's nothing I can cut out!" "You can cut out alllll this. I was always amazed at her ability to say nothing for so long. (Sounds patronizing, but seriously, you would be amazed too). She once gave an in-class speech that lasted...past class time. My ENTJ friend and I remained after the bell had rung out of politeness. It was awful.


----------



## fair phantom

@SugarPlum agreeing with @angelcat . I feel like how protective you are of your art is not just Fi but Fi-Ni. While there are some deep, personal things I wouldn't want to (or would be unable to) explain, my Ne WANTS feedback on my ideas and new perspectives. In that respect I would very much want to interact with my audience to generate meaning(s).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@laurie17 that's wonderful about your job offer! Or I hope it is wonderful. Whatever you do, I hope it is best for you 

And yes, that's part of synesthesia, though from what I understand there are different forms. Do you know if I would need to be tested for it to know if I have it? I brought up testing my sister to my mom, but I think she pays too much for my additional disability stuff to consider doing that for sister until it becomes an actual problem. (It's not a disability, but still... would suck up resources like a disability, that's how she sees it.)


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> @laurie17 that's wonderful about your job offer! Or I hope it is wonderful. Whatever you do, I hope it is best for you
> 
> And yes, that's part of synesthesia, though from what I understand there are different forms. Do you know if I would need to be tested for it to know if I have it? I brought up testing my sister to my mom, but I think she pays too much for my additional disability stuff to consider doing that for sister until it becomes an actual problem. (It's not a disability, but still... would suck up resources like a disability, that's how she sees it.)


It does seem to be the kind of thing where you should have a diagnosis for, to distinguish it from imagination and other cognitive functions. I do some of the things being described by you and others, but I don't think it is synesthesia—which doesn't mean that no one here has it, just that I don't. I just have an active imagination. 

If it doesn't interfere with your ability to function, I don't think you _need_ to see any sort of specialist, just maybe bring it up the next time you are talking to a doctor or psych. 

P.S. Yes congrats @laurie17 , sounds exciting!


----------



## 68097

Writing.

Hmm, well, I frequently write out long e-mails, then edit them down before I send them because -- holy Merlin, wall of text! My Ne gets away from me a lot, in that regard.

Writing YA novels, I usually aim for 80k and usually can keep the story about that length. But right now I'm writing adult historical fiction, less than halfway through the book, and it's already 90k words. Not bloated, though. Not padded. In fact, I'm worried that it might need MORE description. 

@Oswin: it's not bad to go back and add in additional plot lines to get a longer word count. But it does intrigue me that your stories don't do that naturally, that you can keep them so focused on one or two characters. Usually that's hard for an intuitive writer. It's also hard for Ni to write in a relate-able way, to dumb down their symbolism and abstractions for a wider audience. I've often heard from Ni-writers that it feels ... wrong, like a betrayal of their vision in some regards. 

I personally think -- the greater the passion you have for a topic, the longer it tends to be. I can write two lines on something I'm not interested in (for an article or whatever), but go on for five pages on Ancient Rome.


----------



## owlet

alittlebear said:


> @_laurie17_ that's wonderful about your job offer! Or I hope it is wonderful. Whatever you do, I hope it is best for you
> 
> And yes, that's part of synesthesia, though from what I understand there are different forms. Do you know if I would need to be tested for it to know if I have it? I brought up testing my sister to my mom, but I think she pays too much for my additional disability stuff to consider doing that for sister until it becomes an actual problem. (It's not a disability, but still... would suck up resources like a disability, that's how she sees it.)


Haha, thanks, but it's just work experience (unpaid) and I'd have to try and stay at my friend's house for a week... I guess if no interviews come up, I might as well :ghost3:

I'm not sure about testing. I've never really considered whatever I have to be a problem, so I don't feel the need to be tested. But then, I don't like tests or going to the doctor's, so... You could have a look on this site (I just googled for a test, but there are also videos - it seems relatively common).
Synesthesia Test | Are Your Senses Crossing Paths?


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Yeah I think he carries those teenage dreams around around, but they no longer have _vitality_.


Nice way of putting it 

Now I'm trying to think of songs that don't make much sense without picking them apart. Hm...


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Yeah I think he carries those teenage dreams around around, but they no longer have _vitality_.


Bam, perfect!


----------



## Immolate

Oh, yeah, the song you posted is gibberish to me, @Oswin


----------



## Dangerose

Also...maybe I'm a Se-dom? Is ESTP weird for me? I just _die_ when I can't go anywhere.


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> Also...maybe I'm a Se-dom? Is ESTP weird for me? I just _die_ when I can't go anywhere.


Do you like to see how far you can push the object, in your environment?

ESTP... Natalie Dormer maybe? I get a general sense of Se/Fe from her.






In some interview she said sometimes she worries about bodily image, but she can run 20 miles in two hours or something and that means she's fine. LOL


----------



## Immolate

Silence.


----------



## KevinHeaven

Explain Ni vision


----------



## Immolate

*gasp*

Someone new.


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> Do you like to see how far you can push the object, in your environment?
> 
> ESTP... Natalie Dormer maybe? I get a general sense of Se/Fe from her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In some interview she said sometimes she worries about bodily image, but she can run 20 miles in two hours or something and that means she's fine. LOL


Sorry; I was gone) I'm surprised this thread did not progress in my absence)
Mm...not really. I mean, I exercise purely to lose weight...running 20 miles in 2 hours sounds hellish and I would not want to try it.
I might set goals for myself and feel compelled to work to reach them, but it wouldnt be fun or enjoyable.
I just...don't like to be in the same place for more than...a few hours maybe. If I'm doing nothing at home, I'll get really tired of that and feel the need to do nothing somewhere else. I really don't understand people whose ideal Saturday is staying home all day. I _can't_ stay home all day, that's just a day wasted. Or, on quizzes they ask, "Where do we find you on Friday night?" and I guess yeah I'm at home watching Netflix but not because I want to be, because I don't know what else to do.

I guess it could be an E thing generally, I don't know.


----------



## KevinHeaven

Says "Hi" in a very shy way


----------



## Dangerose

Hello @KevinHeaven! I don't understand the Pi functions really, if I did I'd know which one I used, but hopefully someone will be able to answer that...


----------



## KevinHeaven

Oswin said:


> Hello @KevinHeaven! I don't understand the Pi functions really, if I did I'd know which one I used, but hopefully someone will be able to answer that...


Thank you Oswin  its ok i dont get it 2


----------



## Immolate

KevinHeaven said:


> Says "Hi" in a very shy way


----------



## KevinHeaven

shinynotshiny said:


>


I have a lot of questions about Ni who is willing to help mee?


----------



## Immolate

KevinHeaven said:


> I have a lot of questions about Ni who is willing to help mee?


I also have questions. Someone will pop up sooner or later


----------



## KevinHeaven

shinynotshiny said:


> I also have questions. Someone will pop up sooner or later


Waiting for that hero lol


----------



## Dangerose

Everyone ask your questions.
Someone will try to answer them.
Someone else will argue with that answer.
Other people will jump in angrily.
Eventually a little bit of clarity will be found.


----------



## KevinHeaven

Oswin said:


> Everyone ask your questions.
> Someone will try to answer them.
> Someone else will argue with that answer.
> Other people will jump in angrily.
> Eventually a little bit of clarity will be found.


Haha I feel like the someone will try to answer them part wont happen.


----------



## Dangerose

KevinHeaven said:


> Haha I feel like the someone will try to answer them part wont happen.


I volunteer for the first step) Go)


----------



## KevinHeaven

Ok lets start:

Is having a vision of the future Ne or Ni ? (Having a vision for lets say a painting before painting it) 

Is searching for meaning and trying to relate things in life and see how they connect Ni or Ne? 


Is predicting the future Ni or Ne?


Is zoning out and staring blankly without any thought process going on Ni or Ne traits?


Is making metaphors and coming out with symbols Ni or Ne?


Is symbolising an abstract concept into something tangible Ni or Ne (analogies)?


Is thinking about the meaning of life and meaning of existence Ni or Ne? 


Is trying to connect the dots between two things and seeing patterns Ni or Ne?


Is using past patterns to predict the future Ni or Ne? 


Give example of Ne and Ni song lyrics/poems/creative writing.


Is making visual models of abstract things and making them easier to understand Ni or Ne?



That was long hahq


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> I wondered for so long.


Smart-ass.

I'll answer the question about Ne later. It requires some thought and I'm a bit mentally exhausted this morning.


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> @KevinHeaven: Ne wants to share its ideas, discuss them, get feedback on them, and doesn't mind engaging with them immediately.
> 
> Ni would rather stare at an idea awhile, be skeptical of it, then creep nearer for more intimate acquaintance on its own terms, but it prefers to do so alone.


Could Se do that too on a lower scale? In the classroom and on projects, I tend to be the one spitting out ideas for people to reject and one of the reasons I actually participate in class and answer/ask questions is to get feedback on whether my ideas or understanding on blalala is good(?) besides milking the teacher for more information. I like expressing my ideas and sharing them. Of course, Ne would be a larger spitball, I assume. 

I do Ni thing with STEM courses though and learning in general but I think that's natural. Learning takes time. Oh wait. Behaviour does not equal cognition. Bah. 

How does Se deal with ideas? 

(By the way, greetings to everyone, it's been several days. Were there any crisises or type relevations or deaths since then?)


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Just got an offer of work experience.... in Oxford.... about five months after I applied for it... (But I really want to do it :dispirited


I hope you can find a way to make it work for you! Even if it's unpaid, it should be a good experience (and an excuse to spend some time elsewhere). What kind of work is it?



> In language classes, I extended my usually too concise sentences with indefinite articles, because I love using those and it's actually seen as a good thing in Japanese. I wonder if the filtering issue is very low Ni? My ISTP sister is quite good at filtering down to the basics, while I have to kind of rewrite drafts once I know how long one part needs to be...


Which ones are they again? I learned to use "eetou" and "anou" as fillers, but I can't think of anything else we were taught to use...

And filtering could be unvalued Ni. I also wondered about low Te, but I guess that wouldn't make sense if ISTP finds it relatively easy. Perhaps it could be put down to a few different functions. 



> I hardly ever get the energised feeling, so I'm a bit jealous. It sounds like your job's going well though, so that's good! :ghost3: I've somehow been talked into meeting up three times this week... That should be fun.


I don't know how it's going, to be honest. I don't get a lot of feedback so my natural tendency is to assume that I'm doing a terrible job. But I keep getting extra shifts so I guess they have to like something I'm doing! I'm just really regretting taking on these extra online courses (I only did them because I thought I'd have nothing to do over the summer holidays) but I guess it's too late to drop out. Even if it isn't, I don't think I could live with myself if I gave up now. 

Good luck with your social engagements! I hate it when I accidentally put too much on my plate like that. Hopefully you'll have a few spare days after that to recover?



> Haha, well that's okay, as long as you try to make it on time! I just do a lot of pre-planning so I don't get lost (I really don't like having to ask for directions - though I did once in London because I got separated from my class). My sister and housemate at the time also got lost on their way to meet me there, so now I just think of London as a maze city where no one ever really finds where they're going. Having a smart phone would be great...


Oh believe me, the intentions are definitely there! I don't understand people who don't see the big deal in being late all the time. I think it shows a certain kind of arrogance - like your time is so much more important than everyone else's.

It's been over 5 years since I was in London but I have an idea of what you mean. I thought it might've just been because we didn't know the city at all. 

Ah, you don't have a smart phone either? I thought I was the only one! I don't really want to make the switch (I love my Blackberry knock-off's actual keyboard-keypad) but I think I'm going to have to eventually, especially if I'm going into business. 



> I've never had the micromanaging thing, though the group member who was really bad at getting the work done was actually very vocal about how we should be doing it... Me and the other group member agreed to do an more in-depth approach, as the teacher had commented on it in our last presentation, but she was convinced doing a range of disconnected topics was best. It was very difficult to convince her otherwise.


Oh you're lucky! Our micromanager was a bit like that too, had very strong ideas on how we should do things, because if she was marking the assignment, that was how SHE would want it to be done... Even though the teacher had dropped numerous hints in class about how they wanted it to be done, and it wasn't at all like how this girl wanted to do things. Apparently I was the only one in the group who was smart enough to connect the dots, though? (Or maybe I was the only one listening...) I think she was an immature IxFP, that whole in-love-with-her-own-opinion thing, and over-reliance on "this is how I'd want it if I were in charge" and the hypercritical, controlling attitude under stress. 



> I actually usually end up in the leadership role, mostly because if I don't go for it, no one else will offer to do it and we'll just be wandering around as the time ticks away... I was actually volunteered to be group leader and to liaise with the teacher about our work. I was not in my natural element at all. But I do have the same thing of wanting all work I do to be good. It's embarrassing to had something in that's had no effort put into it...


Do you get used to it, the more you do it? That was the original perspective I took, at the beginning of working with that group - that it'd be a learning experience and that I needed to take myself out of my comfort zone. But I really didn't like what it did to me, and I'm not sure that there's any point perservering if I'm going to be that stressed and that mean when I am in charge.



> I think maybe it's a privacy thing. I really need some level of privacy, even just a single space I can go to and not have any people feeling around. I would probably have set up some kind of system to drop water on them if they tried to go in while I wasn't there.


That's exactly what I think it is. Unfortunately no bucket of water, there was carpet all through the house. But I did fantasise about all kinds of different booby traps. Never found anything I liked enough though. :ghost2:



> I also have a chair where I put used but not unclean clothes. It's a tiny computer chair but somehow many t-shirts and jeans can fit on their. It's pretty cool.


Sometimes I hang clothes on the back of one of my chairs. I used to fold them and put them under the stairs but I was told it attracted dust. I'm not convinced but I don't mind having a small dedicated cupboard for them.



> Yes, phrasing is the main thing. If it's just sympathy, it's fine. I do find it difficult if I really want to just discuss a personal thing and it suddenly gets made into a big sharing thing. It takes a lot for me to share personal things with others, so if it gets brushed aside I don't really try again for a while.


I think the most important thing is to find out what the person wants and actually respect that. I personally like sharing but I'd hate to subject someone to that if they're not into it. 

Having said that, I agree, it's difficult for me to share personal things with most other people too, so I'm easily discouraged. I'm weird though, it's either too closed off or too much info with me. I can never seem to strike the right balance. 



> Haha, I bought a lot of random stuff when I was younger just because something resonated with me. (I still like those tiny porcelain models of flowers etc. that are usually in old lady's houses...)


I already like your taste in ornaments.



> Aw no :dispirited: The poor cat! They hate having unclean litter.


I know! There were two of them, too! And one used to very deliberately do her business in "public" spaces if the litter box was too dirty. She used to get into trouble for it by the stupid owners, and I felt so awful for her. I'd try to spend extra time and let her into my room to try to make up for it. Not that it had anything to do with me but I hope I gave her an extra bit of happiness, especially now that I'm sure she and her sister are living in filth again...



> I'm now assuming you're actually a cat and that you were trying to double-bluff everyone with your name.


Dammit you caught me!












> I was happy Rebecca was being discussed. It was such a good book - and the black and white film was great too! :ghost3:


Me too! It's been so long since I've read it and I'd totally forgotten about it. I did enjoy the movie too, thank you @fair phantom!



fair phantom said:


> Yeah I think that was the intention, but now that she has sort of overcome Rebecca, I think she should get a name.
> @angelcat I could see either of those! Maud would be amusing because it is derived from Matlida which means "Might,strength" + "battle"


I like the interpretation, but I think I read somewhere that it was just that du Maurier never thought of a name for her?

Maud or Matilda would be nice but I'm pretty sure it was hinted at in the book that she had an unusual name (while Maud would be unusual now, it probably wouldn't've been back then). So maybe something foreign, or from old mythology?



angelcat said:


> I don't like her much. She's too cowed. Too insecure. I feel sorry for her, but she did start to come into her own later in the book -- when Max needed her. And hopefully their life away from Manderlay was better.


I don't remember feeling as impatient with her in the book - probably because I was also very shy and insecure in high school - but I wanted to kick her into action throughout most of the movie yesterday! My goodness! I did like that she became more decisive in crisis, though, and I hope that growth continued after they left Manderley. 



Oswin said:


> I just...don't like to be in the same place for more than...a few hours maybe. If I'm doing nothing at home, I'll get really tired of that and feel the need to do nothing somewhere else. I really don't understand people whose ideal Saturday is staying home all day. I _can't_ stay home all day, that's just a day wasted. Or, on quizzes they ask, "Where do we find you on Friday night?" and I guess yeah I'm at home watching Netflix but not because I want to be, because I don't know what else to do.
> 
> I guess it could be an E thing generally, I don't know.


If even half the E's I know are like this, I can understand why they get worried about me wanting to stay in and do nothing for 3 days in a row then! :hampster:


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Could Se do that too on a lower scale? In the classroom and on projects, I tend to be the one spitting out ideas for people to reject and one of the reasons I actually participate in class and answer/ask questions is to get feedback on whether my ideas or understanding on blalala is good(?) besides milking the teacher for more information. I like expressing my ideas and sharing them. Of course, Ne would be a larger spitball, I assume.
> 
> I do Ni thing with STEM courses though and learning in general but I think that's natural. Learning takes time. Oh wait. Behaviour does not equal cognition. Bah.
> 
> How does Se deal with ideas?
> 
> (By the way, greetings to everyone, it's been several days. Were there any crisises or type relevations or deaths since then?)



Yes. Revelation: I am ISFJ.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Yes. Revelation: I am ISFJ.


Congratulations. It's a fitting type! 










Didn't you discover that through Socionics? I was skimming through the pages (lol, I didn't get through all of them because I'm lazy) and I saw that. There was a big upset through that typing. You had the Fe-Ti vibeeee.


===

I read somewhere that Fi will not want to lead, but will adapt and become a leader pretty well if it has to.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> (By the way, greetings to everyone, it's been several days. Were there any crisises or type relevations or deaths since then?)


Well, I do have an Enneagram thread, and I'm still as of yet unsure on my MBTI type, since Socionics decided to come in and fuck things up. :dry:


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Congratulations. It's a fitting type!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't you discover that through Socionics? I was skimming through the pages (lol, I didn't get through all of them because I'm lazy) and I saw that. There was a big upset through that typing. You had the Fe-Ti vibeeee.


You make me sick.


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Well, I do have an Enneagram thread, and I'm still as of yet unsure on my MBTI type, since Socionics decided to come in and fuck things up. :dry:


How did Socionics mess things up? Aren't MBTI and Socionics too different, related systems? 
Hm. I should type up an ennegram/Socionics thread too. Join the bandwagon 8D

@shinynotshiny, 









EDIT: why is there a thumbnail, wow.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> How did Socionics mess things up? Aren't MBTI and Socionics too different, related systems?
> Hm. I should type up an ennegram/Socionics thread too. Join the bandwagon 8D
> 
> @shinynotshiny,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: why is there a thumbnail, wow.


Huh, I've heard that Socionics and MBTI are quite similar, and that your MBTI type should be the same as your Socionics. Though perhaps that's a bit naive of me to say. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

@Curiphant


----------



## Dragheart Luard

@shinynotshiny BTW left a short reply on your socionics thread, and really Fe PoLR doesn't seem legit for you.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ BTW left a short reply on your socionics thread, and really Fe PoLR doesn't seem legit for you.


Because I understood the questions? Oh Flare. I understood most questions (or feel I understood them). I have no PoLR :tears_of_joy:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> Because I understood the questions? Oh Flare. I understood most questions (or feel I understood them). I have no PoLR :tears_of_joy:


The thing is that your PoLR could be noticed if you felt repelled by a certain block, and for me the Fe one was filled with one liners and question marks because the thing made zero sense to me.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> The thing is that your PoLR could be noticed if you felt repelled by a certain block, and for me the Fe one was filled with one liners and question marks because the thing made zero sense to me.


None repelled me, though. I did my best to answer everything to my capability or as I understood the question for the sake of clarity.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> None repelled me, though. I did my best to answer everything to my capability or as I understood the question for the sake of clarity.


Well that will help to get a better idea of your type, as more information can be contrasted.


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Huh, I've heard that Socionics and MBTI are quite similar, and that your MBTI type should be the same as your Socionics. Though perhaps that's a bit naive of me to say. :wink:


Probably not naive. I related to the ISFj type more than ISFp type but apparently that's natural, but I haven't gotten into Socionics that much. You're probably right and they should line up. 
@shinynotshiny


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> Well that will help to get a better idea of your type, as more information can be contrasted.


Even if I didn't like the question, I answered because more details = more to work with, although I made passing mentions if the question felt odd and the like.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Probably not naive. I related to the ISFj type more than ISFp type but apparently that's natural, but I haven't gotten into Socionics that much. You're probably right and they should line up.
> 
> @_shinynotshiny_


No it's ok. I will attack when you least expect it.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Probably not naive. I related to the ISFj type more than ISFp type but apparently that's natural, but I haven't gotten into Socionics that much. You're probably right and they should line up.


Yeah, the thing with Socionics is that the I types have their j and p mixed up, ISFj is ISFP for MBTI, and vice versa. The strange thing is that I really don't relate to Socionics Se, which is *very* strange. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> Well that will help to get a better idea of your type, as more information can be contrasted.


At the very least, I don't relate to this description of Te PoLR (SEI is Te PoLR, right?):



> A type with  PoLR tends to reject facts given from a source which they are personally unfamiliar with, firmly believing they can make their own decisions that are solely based on their own perspective and reasoning about it. They will tend to become defensive when questioned about their rationale or efficiency, pointing out that there is no such thing as objective "fact". Also, these types experience a significant level of stress in tending to day-to-day must do's and responsibilities in life (like routine maintenance or working productively), manifesting itself as a general laziness or hyper-diligence.


or



> as a  vulnerable (4th) function (SEI and IEI)
> That is manifested as a skepticism and dislike for basing your beliefs, arguments, and actions on external sources of information. For instance, a SEI will rather trust the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates to have read many books on the same subject. IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it. "Don't trust everything you read" is a typical sneer of this function, especially when applied to sources of information otherwise seen as neutral and reliable, such as encyclopedias and handbooks. Another manifestation is a dislike for dealing with issues involving efficiency, productivity, and factual accuracy of statements made; statements are made according to input from other functions, not from double-checks against external facts which are seen as of lesser relevance to the issue at hand. Types with this function lack confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources.


----------



## 68097

Bugs said:


> Stronger Ne is more focused on the external objects while stronger Si prefers isolating the internal impressions.
> What is Ne like for you, @angelcat + others with Ne lower in their stack?


For me, Ne is ... being excited about the big picture but also slightly overwhelmed with it. It is desperately craving new ideas and experiences but not always having the courage to leap out into the unknown and try it without a safety net. Ne marvels at the universe and all in it, and wants to reshape reality to fit an ideal, but Si dominating over it always keeps me tethered to certain realities so that my kite cannot fly free. Ne says, "I want to believe in ghosts, and faeries, and such things" and Si says, "But there has never been any proof that those things exist." 

Like... my Ne is very active whenever I engage it in a writing project. I sit down and I have a bunch of ideas for different books, and directions all of those stories could go in, but I can't handle writing on six projects at once because I get to feeling overwhelmed. So, Si says to Ne, "Pick one, and then we'll have fun with that one book." So Ne throws out a bunch of ideas until I find one that hooks me into it, and then I write down all the other ideas and stick them in a jar for later, so I can concentrate on the project at hand. I can focus my Ne; it doesn't control my life. I activate it. I point it at something and say, "Okay, be awesome." And then it shows up, but it takes mental effort for me to fully flesh it out and play with it. Spending hours brainstorming would have a building effect on a higher Ne -- for me, it's fun and engaging but I come out of it exhausted, because I've been using a lower function for hours on end. 

Ne makes me incredibly indecisive, while Si ruling over it means I want to reach a decision. Becca is mad at me. Is it for THIS reason? Or THAT reason? What should I do about it? THIS or THAT? 

My Ne is pretty active, more so than a lot of ISXJs for some weird reason, but it kicks in a lot. I often get a sense of things, of what's really going on, of where a story or a person is headed, but I'm not always sure of it. I wait to see if it is proven before I assert it. But it's strange, in retrospect, how much my Fe/Ne figured out on its own, subconsciously -- how I instinctively knew people had been abused before they told me, that kind of thing. I think the thing I dislike most about it, though, is that I can get to feeling totally overwhelmed with a HUGE bunch of information or ideas all at once. My brain can't process them quickly, or think about 16 things all at the same time, so I start shutting down and I just want to go hide. 

I had a fairly massive project awhile back that just ... overwhelmed me. It was something like 350 distinct chapters that all needed rewritten. Staring at that huge list, I just wanted to crawl into a hobbit hole and not come out. It wasn't until I broke it down into manageable goals and details (divide in half, then half again, and so on, then set an end date -- with the result that I only have to do 5 chapters a day) that I could handle it. I even went on to do double the workload, because I was no longer horrified by the magnitude of the project. Where Ne-dom/aux might be stressed with something that small and detailed, my Si-dom took comfort in it. 

Though, inferior Ne is great for thinking up all the ways stuff can go wrong. Ask me. Anytime. It's easy. 



Bugs said:


> As @angelcat said, a strong Ne type will typically want to discuss or express ideas they have. ENP types won't even necessarily have a position on the idea preferring to remain fluid with conclusions while learning more and more perspectives. *For me hardly anything is sacred and I discuss most things with an impersonal approach so it's rare that I'll be offended*.


Disclaimer: I am a 6, therefore I'm... weird and not like most ISFJs.

The bolded is very much me. I like to discuss ideas, I don't really think anything is sacred, and I can make a joke out of anything. I once had a guy tell me that he could not figure me out, because I sure was "sacrilegious for someone so devout." Sure, I might believe A, but why not argue B for fun? I'm sure B has some valid points, which A should acknowledge; A can stick with their beliefs, so long as they look at B too. But since Si rules Ne, on truly important things, I DO have an opinion. I'm just exploring the other side for fun.

Discussing ideas is fun, but it depends on what it is. If it's a project we're all doing together -- terrific. I'm not tied to any of my ideas. If you're asking me to absorb and agree with a lot of new theories all at once, I can't. I need more time.


----------



## Greyhart

I ate a few cherries with worms in them without spitting them out. I'm so proud. :')



angelcat said:


> I mean, what is the writer_ saying_?? What is he talking about? Specifically?
> 
> The last paragraph -- sex. I think. But what about the paragraph above it? Mummified dreams? What's wrong with him? What does heavy metal have to do with it?!


All of FOB lyrics looks like random words rhymed for no reason to me. Like whoever writes it uses randomly generated metaphors and tries to rhyme them over a catchy tune. :dry: Fortunately can ignore lyrics as long as song sounds good. 

@Oswin Of Monster and Men is a great band. *_* Starting right from its name.



> By 'mummified my teenage dreams' I thought he meant 'preserved', like, he didn't move on, he kept wanting to be a rock star, bang the hot chick, whatever else it might be


I thought mummified as in 'dead and dried'. 

@KevinHeaven

* *





*Is having a vision of the future Ne or Ni ?*
Specific - Ni. Kaleidoscope - Ne.

*(Having a vision for lets say a painting before painting it)*
Basic creativity. Detailed? I want it to be exactly like this? Ni
General idea? Many possibilities it could go? I'll see as I go? Ne.

*Is searching for meaning and trying to relate things in life and see how they connect Ni or Ne?*
Both.

*Is predicting the future Ni or Ne?*
Everyone is capable of that. Depends what you mean exactly. I 

*Is zoning out and staring blankly without any thought process going on Ni or Ne traits?*
Human condition.

*Is making metaphors and coming out with symbols Ni or Ne?*
Both.

*Is symbolising an abstract concept into something tangible Ni or Ne (analogies)?*
What do you mean by tangible? But both too (+Sensory functions)

*Is thinking about the meaning of life and meaning of existence Ni or Ne?*
Human condition.

*Is trying to connect the dots between two things and seeing patterns Ni or Ne?*
Both. Connecting dots - Ne AND Ti at least this is how I see _both_ of them working.

*Is using past patterns to predict the future Ni or Ne?*
Usually Si-related trait. Although I'd say it's still universal for humans. Si-Ne would do it naturally I think.

*Give example of Ne and Ni song lyrics/poems/creative writing.*
Ne+Si, Si takes vague impressions Ne grows them into worlds.
Probably Ne





Regina Spektor and Owl City are both NFPs.

Ni





Tool is Ni~Fe.

*Is making visual models of abstract things and making them easier to understand Ni or Ne?*
Visual models?.. As in physically? Drawing graphs? Sensory.

Or do you mean vivid metaphors?
________

Links.

Ne 1 2 3 5 6 7

Ne vs Se dom
Ne scribbles
laurie17 just posted Se collection




@Alittlbear


> I really sometimes am just awed that I'm an Fe-dominant, that that's what we've come to here. That would have been the furthest thing from my mind before I joined. I was about to settle as always seeing myself as INFP. But that always made me uncomfortable... and it probably was because I was always the opposite of Fi/Ne


It's your enneagram type. It's atypical for Fe doms but you had an atypical life - it's not that surprising.



> Smileys without colon is a Russian thing and possibly in other languages that use Cyrillic alphabet.





> I wondered for so long.


Because to type : you need shift+6 and it takes too much time. So you can just do this)))) to indicate that you are totally smiling there.






Ni or Ne?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart speaking of Enneagram type! A lot of people can't see me as 9 or SO at all, lol. I'm still hoping that the people who see it as so obvious that I'm an SO 9 can/will come to the thread and explain what they see? Because all of these people saying I'm not 9 or SO at all are starting to confuse me. 

Also, goodness! Eating worms is bad, Grey! I knew this cherry thing would get to be detrimental to your health. /maternal head shake/


----------



## KevinHeaven

Greyhart said:


> I ate a few cherries with worms in them without spitting them out. I'm so proud. :')
> 
> 
> All of FOB lyrics looks like random words rhymed for no reason to me. Like whoever writes it uses randomly generated metaphors and tries to rhyme them over a catchy tune. :dry: Fortunately can ignore lyrics as long as song sounds good.
> 
> @Oswin Of Monster and Men is a great band. *_* Starting right from its name.
> 
> 
> I thought mummified as in 'dead and dried'.
> 
> @KevinHeaven
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Is having a vision of the future Ne or Ni ?*
> Specific - Ni. Kaleidoscope - Ne.
> 
> *(Having a vision for lets say a painting before painting it)*
> Basic creativity. Detailed? I want it to be exactly like this? Ni
> General idea? Many possibilities it could go? I'll see as I go? Ne.
> 
> *Is searching for meaning and trying to relate things in life and see how they connect Ni or Ne?*
> Both.
> 
> *Is predicting the future Ni or Ne?*
> Everyone is capable of that. Depends what you mean exactly. I
> 
> *Is zoning out and staring blankly without any thought process going on Ni or Ne traits?*
> Human condition.
> 
> *Is making metaphors and coming out with symbols Ni or Ne?*
> Both.
> 
> *Is symbolising an abstract concept into something tangible Ni or Ne (analogies)?*
> What do you mean by tangible? But both too (+Sensory functions)
> 
> *Is thinking about the meaning of life and meaning of existence Ni or Ne?*
> Human condition.
> 
> *Is trying to connect the dots between two things and seeing patterns Ni or Ne?*
> Both. Connecting dots - Ne AND Ti at least this is how I see _both_ of them working.
> 
> *Is using past patterns to predict the future Ni or Ne?*
> Usually Si-related trait. Although I'd say it's still universal for humans. Si-Ne would do it naturally I think.
> 
> *Give example of Ne and Ni song lyrics/poems/creative writing.*
> Ne+Si, Si takes vague impressions Ne grows them into worlds.
> Probably Ne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regina Spektor and Owl City are both NFPs.
> 
> Ni
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tool is Ni~Fe.
> 
> *Is making visual models of abstract things and making them easier to understand Ni or Ne?*
> Visual models?.. As in physically? Drawing graphs? Sensory.
> 
> Or do you mean vivid metaphors?
> 
> 1234567
> 
> Ne vs Se dom
> Ne scribbles
> laurie17 just posted Se collection
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Alittlbear
> It's your enneagram type. It's atypical for Fe doms but you had an atypical life - it's not that surprising.
> 
> 
> 
> Because to type : you need shift+6 and it takes too much time. So you can just do this)))) to indicate that you are totally smiling there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ni or Ne?


That was so helpful thanks and yes I mean vivid metaphors. Its like when you have an abstract thought and you want it to be more real so you make an analogy of it to grasp it better. I will check the links


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart speaking of Enneagram type! A lot of people can't see me as 9 or SO at all, lol. I'm still hoping that the people who see it as so obvious that I'm an SO 9 can/will come to the thread and explain what they see? Because all of these people saying I'm not 9 or SO at all are starting to confuse me.


Well, I have no opinion on So, Sx or Sp, cause my foray into Enneagram hasn't included that, but I still think you're 9, not 2. You don't seem to crave being loved like 2s are, and your natural kindness seems more like an Fe trait, not 2. :happy:


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> No it's ok. I will attack when you least expect it.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Disclaimer: I am a 6, therefore I'm... weird and not like most ISFJs.
> 
> The bolded is very much me. I like to discuss ideas, I don't really think anything is sacred, and I can make a joke out of anything. I once had a guy tell me that he could not figure me out, because I sure was "sacrilegious for someone so devout." Sure, I might believe A, but why not argue B for fun? I'm sure B has some valid points, which A should acknowledge; A can stick with their beliefs, so long as they look at B too. But since Si rules Ne, on truly important things, I DO have an opinion. I'm just exploring the other side for fun.
> 
> Discussing ideas is fun, but it depends on what it is. If it's a project we're all doing together -- terrific. I'm not tied to any of my ideas. If you're asking me to absorb and agree with a lot of new theories all at once, I can't. I need more time.


Neither my mom nor my ISFJ friends are super-touchy (less tham my ISTJ dad lol) _but_ I can easily seriously trash things I like, like my hobbies and such. If do that to what they love it wounds them. Because I am a mean immature bitch I sometimes do that just to see their reactions.

I do get twitchy if someone says "It sucks" and then refuses to articulate "whys" since it's a conversation potential dying right before me. Trash it but tell my why, I want to understand and argue.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, I have no opinion on So, Sx or Sp, cause my foray into Enneagram hasn't included that, but I still think you're 9, not 2. You don't seem to crave being loved like 2s are, and your natural kindness seems more like an Fe trait, not 2. :happy:


I think you're nicer than you described yourself. You have your moments, but still.

Just felt like saying that :toast:

@Curiphant omg Curi is that a fucking brick :nonchalance:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> @Greyhart speaking of Enneagram type! A lot of people can't see me as 9 or SO at all, lol. I'm still hoping that the people who see it as so obvious that I'm an SO 9 can/will come to the thread and explain what they see? Because all of these people saying I'm not 9 or SO at all are starting to confuse me.


Maybe SX/SO?



> Also, goodness! Eating worms is bad, Grey! I knew this cherry thing would get to be detrimental to your health. /maternal head shake/


Nonsense, insects are excellent source of protein. Also cherries are expensive.



KevinHeaven said:


> That was so helpful thanks and yes I mean vivid metaphors. Its like when you have an abstract thought and you *want it to be more real* so you make an analogy of it to grasp it better. I will check the links


Personally I like wild exaggerations. Or metaphors that sound unintelligible but make what I am trying to convey more alive somehow. Like tert Fe for example - It falls somewhere in a rampart narcissism aesthetics with a soft grunge tinge of "Please, like me".


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> I do get twitchy if someone says "It sucks" and then refuses to articulate "whys" since it's a conversation potential dying right before me. Trash it but tell my why, I want to understand and argue.


YES. "Just because I don't like it" is not a valid opinion in my eyes. You need a good REASON to hate what I love. 

I think I'm more comfortable with "good fun" ribbing than "nasty" ribbing, do you know what I mean? Like, it's different if I sit around and laugh at how stupid things I love are with other people who also love them but see their flaws, than if someone who genuinely hates what I love is poking holes in it -- because one is good-natured, the other is attacking something that I love, and indirectly attacking my taste level for liking it in spite of itself.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


>





Greyhart said:


> Maybe SX/SO?
> 
> Nonsense, insects are excellent source of protein. Also cherries are expensive.
> 
> 
> Personally I like wild exaggerations. Or metaphors that sound unintelligible but make what I am trying to convey more alive somehow. Like tert Fe for example - It falls somewhere in a rampart narcissism aesthetics with a soft grunge tinge of "Please, like me".


Maybe, but... I mean, they think I'm SP dominant. Not much discussion of SX at all... Except to say I might be SP/SX and SO _last_. It's just so opposite of what we've discussed here.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I think you're nicer than you described yourself. You have your moments, but still.
> 
> Just felt like saying that :toast:
> 
> @Curiphant omg Curi is that a fucking brick :nonchalance:


Aren't we all? Though you're probably right, someone has to act like an asshole. :wink:

Thanks @shinynotshiny. :cheers2:


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> YES. "Just because I don't like it" is not a valid opinion in my eyes. You need a good REASON to hate what I love.


It isn't so much that I want them to have a good reason. I see a potential to debate there if someone shuts me out of this I get pouty. I like arguing OK. Especially IRL since it doesn't require moving anything but my mouth.



> I think I'm more comfortable with "good fun" ribbing than "nasty" ribbing, do you know what I mean? Like, it's different if I sit around and laugh at how stupid things I love are with other people who also love them but see their flaws, than if someone who genuinely hates what I love is poking holes in it -- because one is good-natured, the other is attacking something that I love, and indirectly attacking my taste level for liking it in spite of itself.


Being considerate is kind of a conscious decision to me. This mode depletes energy resource. So if I am drained or in a foul mood I can't bother to soften what I say. It rarely happens since I have a huge energy pool and live alone so there's nobody to be nasty at when I am tried.


----------



## Barakiel

@alittlebear, which do you think you are between So, Sx and Sp? From looking at a very basic outline of the three of them, you seem So, though that could just be because we've talked about a lot of charity stuff on here.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I think you're nicer than you described yourself. You have your moments, but still.
> 
> Just felt like saying that :toast:
> 
> @Curiphant omg Curi is that a fucking brick :nonchalance:


No it's your dead dreams and lost soul coming back to haunt you


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> No it's your dead dreams and lost soul coming back to haunt you


Oh my gosh.


----------



## Immolate

Oh my gosh indeed


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Oh my gosh.


It's true =/


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> No it's your dead dreams and lost soul coming back to haunt you


A brick? What does that say about @shinynotshiny's dreams, I wonder. Perhaps he dreams of being a workman. :wink:


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> A brick? What does that say about @shinynotshiny's dreams, I wonder. Perhaps he dreams of being a workman. :wink:


Her disappeared lover was a constructor worker on the biggest brick castle in Poland.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> If I get ill, the birds bring me sustenance and sing me back to health.


Ah, Snow White, then. roud:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Ah, Snow White, then. roud:


Someday my prince will come.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Someday my prince will come.


Or you eat an apple and go into a coma. Never eat apples. :laughing:

Wow, how do I remember that animated movie, it's perplexing.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Or you eat an apple and go into a coma. Never eat apples. :laughing:
> 
> Wow, how do I remember that animated movie, it's perplexing.


The purity of my soul will neutralize any poison.


----------



## Immolate

I think this thread has seen the last of its glory days.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I think this thread has seen the last of its glory days.


Why? No I mean not like why do you think that but like why do you think that is?


----------



## Greyhart

I saw @shinynotshiny 's signature and guys do you think cats touch their toys like this because they check if it's alive? You know since they are predators. So they check prey's life status to see if they can eat it already or it needs to be killed more?


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Why? No I mean not like why do you think that but like why do you think that is?


Because everything is a lie~

There isn't much discussion going on (and by that I mean about Ni and other functions). Also, Greyhart doesn't Ne as much as before. Also Bear is absent.

@Greyhart You do not disappoint. Maybe they do. My cat does that with smaller toys, and she has a habit of leaving her stuffed mouse in front of doors. You know, as an offering.


----------



## KevinHeaven

shinynotshiny said:


> I think this thread has seen the last of its glory days.


Whenever I join a thread ^


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> The purity of my soul will neutralize any poison.


The Lord of Light's fire burns within you, Azor Azai. roud:


----------



## orbit

Oh look a bunch of members so I'm going to ask generalized question and see how everryone has a different response!

How do the functions hold up on ideas and brainstorming?


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Oh look a bunch of members so I'm going to ask generalized question and see how everryone has a different response!
> 
> How do the functions hold up on ideas and brainstorming?


Why, Ne is the only brainstorming function! I hope people notice the sarcasm, plz.

In truth, both intuition functions are good at brainstorming, but Ni tends to focus on one idea and milk that cow for all its worth, whereas Ne lines up a multitude of cows, grabs a skateboard, and rides underneath them with hands ready. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

I found an old thread about authors:

Ursula K. Le Guin INTJ (I can't imagine it.)
Isaac Asimov INTP (I've seen this more than INTJ.)
Anne Rice INFJ (...Really?)
Neal Stephenson INTP (Makes sense.)
Margaret Atwood INTP (...?)
Jeanette Winterson ISFP (Not sure here.)

I'll share some passages. Maybe we can guess at type?


Jeanette Winterson


* *




“We're here, there, not here, not there, swirling like specks of dust, claiming for ourselves the rights of the universe. Being important, being nothing, being caught in lives of our own making that we never wanted. Breaking out, trying again, wondering why the past comes with us, wondering how to talk about the past at all.” 

“The continuous narrative of existence is a lie. There is no continuous narrative, there are lit-up moments, and the rest is dark. When you look closely, the twenty-four hour day is framed into a moment; the still-life of the jerky amphetamine world. That woman-a pieta. Those men, rough angels with an unknown message. The children holding hands, spanning time. And in every still-life, there is a story, the story that tells you everything you need to know.” 

“I went outside, tripping over slabs of sunshine the size of towns. The sun was like a crowd of people, it was a party, it was music. The sun was blaring through the walls of houses and beating down the steps. The sun was drumming time into the stone. The sun was rhythming the day.”

Lighthousekeeping





@_Curiphant_ Hm... Hm? Hm.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Curiphant said:


> Oh look a bunch of members so I'm going to ask generalized question and see how everryone has a different response!
> 
> How do the functions hold up on ideas and brainstorming?


I've noticed that Se is good at brainstorming about ideas that can really happen and how things could be used. Indeed, Se types usually are good at improvising, like an ESFP friend mentioned that she did when she studied theater, but she left that career thanks to the NeFi based ideas that annoyed her at the end.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> The Lord of Light's fire burns within you, Azor Azai. roud:












Shiny... you need an avatar. I can't take its absence. It's killing me. It's so sad. You leave me nothing to look at beside your name! I CAN'T DEAL WITH THIS.


----------



## Immolate

Ursula K Le Guin


* *




“They have nothing to give. They have no power of making. All their power is to darken and destroy. They cannot leave this place; they are this place; and it should be left to them. They should not be denied nor forgotten, but neither should they be worshiped. The Earth is beautiful, and bright, and kindly, but that is not all. The Earth is also terrible, and dark, and cruel. The rabbit shrieks dying in the green meadows. The mountains clench their great hands full of hidden fire. There are sharks in the sea, and there is cruelty in men’s eyes. And where men worship these things and abase themselves before them, there evil breeds; there places are made in the world where darkness gathers, places given over wholly to the Ones whom we call Nameless, the ancient and holy Powers of the Earth before the Light, the powers of the dark, of ruin, of madness… I think they drove your priestess Kossil mad a long time ago; I think she has prowled these caverns as she prowls the labyrinth of her own self, and now she cannot see the daylight any more. She tells you that the Nameless Ones are dead; only a lost soul, lost to truth, could believe that. They exist. But they are not your Masters. They never were. You are free, Tenar. You were taught to be a slave, but you have broken free.”

The Tombs of Atuan


“There is neither source nor end, for all things are in the Center of Time. As all the stars may be reflected in a round raindrop falling in the night: so too do all the stars reflect the raindrop. There is neither darkness nor death, for all things are, in the Light of the Moment, and their end and their beginning are one.” 

“I talk about the gods, I am an atheist. But I am an artist too, and therefore a liar. Distrust everything I say. I am telling the truth. The only truth I can understand or express is, logically defined, a lie. Psychologically defined, a symbol. Aesthetically defined, a metaphor.”

The Left Hand of Darkness





:abnormal:


@angelcat I don't want any bias based on avatar/signature. I mean, Barakiel sees me as a man, which is cool but proves my point :eagerness:


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Shiny... you need an avatar. I can't take its absence. It's killing me. It's so sad. You leave me nothing to look at beside your name! I CAN'T DEAL WITH THIS.


Jesus, I just realized. Game of Thrones is like Pulp Fiction, but in fantasy. So many quotable lines. Well, with the exception of one Samuel L Jackson.










And yes, HE DAMN DOES. It's bugging all of us, like a fly squirming about in your vacant eye socket. :dry:


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> @angelcat I don't want any bias based on avatar/signature. I mean, Barakiel sees me as a man, which is cool but proves my point :eagerness:


That's because you had Spock as your avatar for awhile so... choose carefully, but do choose. I like to look at teh pretty.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> @angelcat I don't want any bias based on avatar/signature. I mean, Barakiel sees me as a man, which is cool but proves my point :eagerness:


Hey, I have a girl as an avatar, which I did internally ponder the wisdom of doing, but it's Homura, why not. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

@angelcat @Barakiel There. Unfortunately not pretty, but neutral eaceful:


----------



## Dangerose

ElliCat said:


> I guess that depends on what you want to get out of it. For me it's a way to understand other people and communicate with them better, and an attempt at seeing myself in a less subjective and critical light. Maybe you don't need the help in understanding other people, so that might not be your focus.
> 
> What do you feel you need from it?


Well, I like that too. I just feel like MBTI has a lot of potential usefulness and I'm only halfway there in unlocking it.

Usefulness exploited: understanding other people! Interesting framework for understanding people's characters and motivations. Fun exercise.Paves the way to valuable and interesting conversations and insights.

Untapped usefulness: What different types need and can do to succeed. How can we use function knowledge to avoid falling into certain traps and to develop our personalities? 

Not just _for me_, also giving advice to friends or knowing how to affect them in a useful way. Like...my ENTJ friend's been in some sort of Te-Se loop for a while now. Do I advise her to _embrace_ and work through that until she naturally settles down, or do I try to pull her back into awareness of some Ni/Fi concerns? 

But yeah, also for me. How do I use my personality type (still undecided though) to find success in life? How do I tap into my Fe-dom potential? Avoid extroverted loops? Compensate for or develop inferior Ti?

No need to answer (feel free to discuss), I'm going to be working on these questions) 

For instance, if I am an ENFJ, then exercise (Se) seems to really help bring out my Ni. If I'm not an ENFJ I don't know what that is. Could it be true for all types? Does exercising the tertiary function help bring out the auxiliary? Or does exercise generally just help balance your personality? (I thought of this particularly because I've heard that exercise is especially helpful for ENFJs and it seems to be true for me but IDK)

Anyways, that's the sort of thing)


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Well, I like that too. I just feel like MBTI has a lot of potential usefulness and I'm only halfway there in unlocking it.
> 
> Usefulness exploited: understanding other people! Interesting framework for understanding people's characters and motivations. Fun exercise.Paves the way to valuable and interesting conversations and insights.
> 
> Untapped usefulness: What different types need and can do to succeed. How can we use function knowledge to avoid falling into certain traps and to develop our personalities?
> 
> Not just _for me_, also giving advice to friends or knowing how to affect them in a useful way. Like...my ENTJ friend's been in some sort of Te-Se loop for a while now. Do I advise her to _embrace_ and work through that until she naturally settles down, or do I try to pull her back into awareness of some Ni/Fi concerns?
> 
> But yeah, also for me. How do I use my personality type (still undecided though) to find success in life? How do I tap into my Fe-dom potential? Avoid extroverted loops? Compensate for or develop inferior Ti?
> 
> No need to answer (feel free to discuss), I'm going to be working on these questions)
> 
> For instance, if I am an ENFJ, then exercise (Se) seems to really help bring out my Ni. If I'm not an ENFJ I don't know what that is. Could it be true for all types? Does exercising the tertiary function help bring out the auxiliary? Or does exercise generally just help balance your personality? (I thought of this particularly because I've heard that exercise is especially helpful for ENFJs and it seems to be true for me but IDK)
> 
> Anyways, that's the sort of thing)


I think one of the keys is training your inferior function. Recreational activities that utilize it are a good way to do that without draining oneself out or getting stressed. I try to use all four functions in my decision making process. If I think I'm going into a loop or getting in the grip I try to activate my aux function or dom function as necessary. Personally, I also think people can benefit from engaging shadow functions—at least recreationally—because most people will encounter some situation where their four functions aren't well suited to the task.

I think everyone benefits from exercise when done right (in accordance with doctor recommendations) and in moderation. That's a human thing, not a function thing. Unless everyone in studies showing the benefits of exercise happened to be an NJ or Sp, which I doubt)


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> I guess the problem is that we fully know what's going on inside our heads and what our intentions are. Whereas when it comes to others, they're not privy to that much information (and even if others are more open, there are always issues of bias, honesty, etc). So it's perfectly understandable that what you think you're sharing vs. what others think you're sharing is going to be a bit different. Like @Greyhart said, it's all relative!
> 
> 
> Yes! Real life is messy and glorious in that messiness! Things are vastly more interesting to me when they're not straightforward.
> 
> 
> I interpreted it like you were annoyed at the tendency for people to focus on behaviours, because it was messing you up, because you relate to the mechanics of Fi-Se but not the stereotypes? Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm not, I don't believe that's silly. I see it like spreading misinformation and I think that's potentially detrimental to people's self-discovery.
> 
> Just as a bit of an aside, what are you thinking in regards to Enneagram? Sometimes if you're an atypical combination that might throw you off a bit too.


No you understood and thank you ^^

I think I'm a three. I read through of the descriptions and out of the handful that were relatable, that hit the nail the best. I was concerned about the image conciousness part but then I realized that I was image concious before but then like an unhealthy(?) three would, they would realize that that their image isn't unfulfilling as they hoped.


----------



## ElliCat

Oswin said:


> Well, I like that too. I just feel like MBTI has a lot of potential usefulness and I'm only halfway there in unlocking it.
> 
> Usefulness exploited: understanding other people! Interesting framework for understanding people's characters and motivations. Fun exercise.Paves the way to valuable and interesting conversations and insights.
> 
> Untapped usefulness: What different types need and can do to succeed. How can we use function knowledge to avoid falling into certain traps and to develop our personalities?


Ah, I see where you're coming from now! I agree, the second part is a bit more difficult to figure out. Mostly because like Curi and I were just discussing, type isn't a one-size-fits-all, so that alone isn't enough to give good advice. It takes a bit of skill to sort of mash together all the different aspects that make up a person, and I don't think I have it, so not much advice there. I try to just ask questions and listen to people's answers, but sometime's it's hard to know what to do when they don't even know the answer themselves.

Using function knowledge to avoid falling into certain traps... I think there's a bit of information out there already, but I'm guessing you want something a bit more in depth than what's on the personality pages. I agree that it's valuable knowledge though. 



> Not just _for me_, also giving advice to friends or knowing how to affect them in a useful way. Like...my ENTJ friend's been in some sort of Te-Se loop for a while now. Do I advise her to _embrace_ and work through that until she naturally settles down, or do I try to pull her back into awareness of some Ni/Fi concerns?


From what I understand, trying to engage her Fi is probably not going to go well. I'd focus on Ni, and maybe try to get at Fi through Se. How you'd go about that I'm not really sure - anyone got any ideas?



> For instance, if I am an ENFJ, then exercise (Se) seems to really help bring out my Ni. If I'm not an ENFJ I don't know what that is. Could it be true for all types? Does exercising the tertiary function help bring out the auxiliary? Or does exercise generally just help balance your personality? (I thought of this particularly because I've heard that exercise is especially helpful for ENFJs and it seems to be true for me but IDK)


I've heard that exercise is good for improving mood - maybe the connection is that exercise gets you out of your head and gives your brain space to work on its own? If I've understood you right.

Personally I have to really enjoy the exercise to get benefit out of it. Forcing myself to run for 20 minutes will just make me focus on how much I hate what I'm doing. Let me try out a new dance class, for example, and I'll be floating on clouds for a week, getting all excited over all the potential outcomes that might come from me learning something new.

So maybe the underlying principle is universal (exercise is good) but the ways in which it affects different people is more dependent on type?


----------



## ElliCat

Curiphant said:


> No you understood and thank you ^^
> 
> I think I'm a three. I read through of the descriptions and out of the handful that were relatable, that hit the nail the best. I was concerned about the image conciousness part but then I realized that I was image concious before but then like an unhealthy(?) three would, they would realize that that their image isn't unfulfilling as they hoped.


I balked at being an image type, because the descriptions made everything seem so _put on_, and I don't relate to putting on an image per se. But I thought about it and realised that I am focused on how I come across to people - for me it's more that I want what other people see to reflect what's on the inside. It bothers me a lot when I feel I'm failing in that area. So I guess that's how I reconcile my own image-type-ness with valuing authenticity.

From what I understand, an unhealthy 3 might start taking on aspects of Type 9 (disintegration) - apathy, etc. A healthy 3 grows towards 6 and I guess becomes a bit more cooperative, rather than letting themelves get carried away by their own goals and need to be successful. Did you see the extract from Maitri that Blue Flare posted a while ago? It might have been while you were gone...


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> From what I understand, trying to engage her Fi is probably not going to go well. I'd focus on Ni, and maybe try to get at Fi through Se. How you'd go about that I'm not really sure - anyone got any ideas?


Yes. I think they need to stop. Take a step back from their Te/Se activity, and engage their inner intuition. Once they have done that, _then_ move to engaging their Fi. 



> I've heard that exercise is good for improving mood - maybe the connection is that exercise gets you out of your head and gives your brain space to work on its own? If I've understood you right.
> 
> Personally I have to really enjoy the exercise to get benefit out of it. Forcing myself to run for 20 minutes will just make me focus on how much I hate what I'm doing. Let me try out a new dance class, for example, and I'll be floating on clouds for a week, getting all excited over all the potential outcomes that might come from me learning something new.
> 
> So maybe the underlying principle is universal (exercise is good) but the ways in which it affects different people is more dependent on type?


Yes I agree that personality type probably impacts how a person reacts to particular forms of exercise. I prefer things like yoga, zumba, swimming(if I had pool access), hiking, or the elliptical...though I mostly like the latter because I basically detach from my body and think about other things. I get _so bored_ with things like free weights. too repetitive and I have to pay attention or I might hurt myself.. I can only make myself do it if I have something to watch while I do. And even then I don't get much in the way of mood benefits. I'd much rather strengthen through body weight exercises like in yoga.



ElliCat said:


> I balked at being an image type, because the descriptions made everything seem so _put on_, and I don't relate to putting on an image per se. But I thought about it and realised that I am focused on how I come across to people - for me it's more that I want what other people see to reflect what's on the inside. It bothers me a lot when I feel I'm failing in that area. So I guess that's how I reconcile my own image-type-ness with valuing authenticity.


Yes. I had the same issue. I'm glad I didn't much get into enneagram when I was younger. There would have been _so much angst_ haha.


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## Dangerose

(I saved the links to some of the pages; I was going to print them out or something but damn they're long)
I don't think it's all of them but it at least gets you in the ballpark range
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...mation-rejection-wanted-918.html#post18488970
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ation-rejection-wanted-1047.html#post18621690
http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-forum-challenger/378530-sandra-maitris-chapter-type-8-a.html

1 
* *




Ones are the perfectionists of the enneagram. They often look bright and shiny, with a clean and
scrubbed quality, as well as a sense of righteousness and piety about them. Ones experience
themselves as good people, trying to do what is correct, just, and moral, while often unconsciously,
they see themselves as flawed or not fundamentally right. Taking the moral high ground, their antenna
is out for what they perceive as imperfection or wrongness, which triggers their resentment and anger,
since in their minds it should not be that way. Tolerating something that they see as not right feels
almost impossible for them, and so they want to fix it and correct it. In particular, the behavior of
others is often the target of their attempts to set things right. They are aligned with their superego, and
tend to be judgmental and critical, both of themselves and of others.
Ones often feel burdened by their criticality and intolerance of imperfection but feel at a loss to do
anything about it. The solution is for others to behave correctly and for things to go in ways that are
optimal as they see it. They can be quite controlling, trying to make others do things the “right” way,
although in their own minds they are simply trying to do the right thing. They are also selfcontrolling,
restraining and holding themselves back from behaving, thinking, or feeling in ways that
they consider wrong, immoral, or sinful. This self-constraint limits their spontaneity and vitality,
which sometimes leak out in various forms of acting out, whether sexually, in terms of substance
abuse, or in rages.
The Holy Idea that Ones have lost touch with is Holy Perfection. When we see reality from this
angle, we perceive that it has an inherent rightness about it that is fundamental. The moment we step
beyond the blinders of the personality, we see that implicit in all that exists are dimensions of
increasing depth, of which the physical is the outermost and the Absolute, a state beyond
manifestation, presence, even consciousness, the most fundamental—this is essentially the
recognition of the existence of spiritual dimensions in all that exists. Or to put it differently, we see
that everything is made up of and is therefore inseparable from True Nature. Beyond this perception of
the multidimensionality of the universe, from the angle of Holy Perfection we see its perfection. We
see that all that exists has a fundamental rightness to it and that everything that occurs is correct and
perfect.
This Holy Idea is one of the more difficult to understand because even the sense in which the word
perfection is used is so much at variance with egoic reality. When we say that something is perfect,
what we are typically doing is measuring that thing against our inner yardstick of what we believe is
ideal, and determining that it approximates that model. It is difficult to conceive of a sense of
perfection that is not based on comparing one thing to another and judging which most closely
resembles our inner standard of excellence and thus which seems better. Such a sense of perfection
determined by comparative judgment is based on subjective standards that have been shaped by our
culture, family values, and personal preferences and history, and is the only perfection known to the
realm of the personality.
Without the filter of the subjective self, we see that all of existence has a quality of completeness,
wholeness, and faultlessness just because it is. This sense of perfection that we experience when
reality is seen through the lens of Holy Perfection is perhaps most closely conveyed by formulations
borrowed from the traditions of the East: “isness” and “suchness.” In Zen Buddhism, this view of
things is called kono-mama, which translates as the “as-it-is-ness of this,” or sono-mama, the “as-itisness
of that”; in Sanskrit the term is tathata, or “suchness”; and in Chinese it is chih-mo or shih-mo.1
Perceiving this “as-it-is-ness” of things is perceiving the fundamental nature of them. In other words,
if we see things as they are, what we see is the inner nature as well as the outer form of them. Each
manifestation in the universe, be it planet, tree, or person, is seen here to be continuous with and
inseparable from the fundamental nature common to all forms, and that fundamental nature is seen to
be just right. The outer shape of one flower may be more graceful than the one next to it, but that has
nothing to do with each flower’s inherent rightness as it is, since both are manifestations of Being.
From this perspective, to say that one flower is more perfect than another makes no sense.
It is difficult to understand how we can say that reality is perfect when there is so much suffering on
the planet stemming from natural disasters, disease, and human foibles. Perhaps an analogy, borrowed
from Almaas, will help to explain the perspective from which reality looks this way: We know from
physics that atoms are the building blocks of all matter, and they in turn are made up of subatomic
particles like electrons and photons, and smaller still, quarks and gluons. All atoms are complete,
whole, and perfect unless they are altered, which is what happens when we create a nuclear explosion.
At this atomic level, whether the atoms make up an emerald or excrement, the reality of each atom is
still perfect.
Holy Perfection is only possible to glimpse when we are not living on the surface of our experience
and of our lives. I think this is a very difficult Holy Idea to understand because this is the level most
people live from. Perhaps the following quote from Almaas will make it clearer:
The way we ordinarily see the world is not the way it really is because we see it from the
perspective of our judgments and preferences, our likes and dislikes, our fears and our ideas of how
things should be. So to see things as they really are, which is to see things objectively, we have to put
these aside—in other words, we have to let go of our minds. Seeing things objectively means that it
doesn’t matter whether we think what we’re looking at is good or bad—it means just seeing it as it is.
If a scientist is conducting an experiment, he doesn’t say, “I don’t like this so I’ll ignore it.” He may
not personally care for the results because they don’t confirm his theory, but pure science means
seeing things the way they really are. If he says he is not going to pay attention to the experiment
because he doesn’t like it, that is not science. Yet, this is the way most of us deal with reality, inwardly
and outwardly. 2
It does not make sense to think of improving or of adding anything to atoms, and in the same way,
the ultimate nature of reality is not improvable and cannot be made better than it is. When we are in
touch with all of the dimensions of reality—when we are in touch with the fundamental nature of
things, in other words—it becomes difficult to say that what transpires, even if physical or emotional
pain results, should be different or that it is wrong.
Much of human suffering is the result of people experiencing and living their lives out of synch
with their inner depths in which Holy Perfection is obvious. For those firmly entrenched in egoic
reality, the surface of their lives and experience is a distortion of the fundamental perfection of their
depths. On this level, people behave in ways that are hurtful and inconsiderate of others, to say the
least, but this does not mean that who they fundamentally are is imperfect or wrong. Even if a
person’s consciousness is filled with hatred and greed, that person’s soul is nonetheless made up of
and inseparable from its depths and so it is inherently perfect. When the depth dimension is part of a
person’s conscious experience, it is not possible intentionally to hurt another person or cause harm
without instantly suffering. From this perspective, we can see that no one is fundamentally bad, and
that what we call evil is only based on judgments we make on the egoic level.
It is important to understand that I am not condoning humanity’s mistreatment of each other, nor
am I suggesting that those who treat others in harmful ways should go unpunished. I am simply saying
that such behavior is only possible when we live our lives out of synch and out of touch with the
totality that we are, and that such actions do not reflect our fundamental nature. I am also suggesting
that our interpretations and judgments about what transpires both within and outside of ourselves are
clouded by our subjective positions and beliefs, which often limit our perception of the larger picture.
When our view becomes deep enough, we can see the perfection even in things that seem tragic on
the surface, such as a massive forest fire—which clears the ground for new growth; or a crippling
accident, like that of Christopher Reeve—who has inspired millions with his courage and will to live.
Even the terrible suffering of the Tibetan people at the hands of the Chinese may have served the
deeper purpose of bringing the wisdom of Tibetan Buddhism to the rest of the world. Rather than
deciding that something is bad, our response becomes one of compassion for the suffering that we see,
which supports life, rather than rejecting what seems wrong to us, which doesn’t help at all.
In terms of our experience of ourselves, Holy Perfection translates as meaning that who we are is
inherently and implicitly perfect, that we are just right as we are, that we do not need anything added
to us or subtracted from us. Integrating this understanding may totally change our approach to inner
work, since from this angle we see that we do not need to become better, that we do not need to be
different, and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with us. All we really need to do is to connect
with and realize our inherent perfection. From the enlightened perspective of Point One, that is all
working on oneself is for and all that it is about.
As we integrate the view of reality seen from the angle of Holy Perfection and become conscious of
the inherent perfection of everything, our inner experience and, as a result, our lives, align and express
that level of reality. In other words, to the extent that we are in touch with Holy Perfection, our lives
take on a quality of extraordinariness and sublimity, and we feel that what occurs in our lives is on the
mark—just what is needed and what is appropriate both for ourselves and others. This is real change—
far more radical and basic than self-improvement. We will discuss a bit about how this comes about
for Ones when we explore the virtue of this point at the end of this chapter.
For an Ennea-type One, losing contact with his essential nature feels like losing touch with the
inherent perfection of all that exists and with his own intrinsic perfection. To the young soul of a One,
contact with Essence was experienced as the ultimate perfection, a sense of bliss, of heaven on earth, a
condition where his soul was totally relaxed and fulfilled, in which nothing needed to be done and he
could rest and settle into his depths. When direct contact with that profound sense of perfection is lost,
the result is a deep sense of anguish that he is no longer abiding in that perfection and cannot get in
touch with it. He loses the sense that he and reality are fundamentally just right, whole, and complete;
and this absense is felt as a not-rightness—a wrongness. He comes to feel that he is imperfect, and it
may seem to him as if the very substance of his soul had a fundamental flaw, a basic badness or
wrongness about it. There arises a mental fixation or underlying and all-pervasive belief that he and
the reality he perceives are essentially imperfect, not good enough. We find this fixation encapsulated
by the word resentment on Diagram 2. What is really amiss is that he has lost contact with his depths,
but this loss appears as or is interpreted as being basically damaged goods. In other words, the inner
felt experience that results from nonperception of Essence for a One feels like a wrongness. This
becomes an inner conviction that he is tainted and bad, the sense that he has a fatal flaw and is not
made of the right substance. This is the cognitive distortion underlying all of the other characteristics
of this ennea-type, and it is what is termed his deficiency in rightness on the Enneagram of
Avoidances, Diagram 10 in Appendix B—his painful core sense of deficiency, which feels too
intolerable to experience fully.
This sense of basic imperfection may arise in concert with an early childhood in which the message
was communicated directly or interpreted internally that he just wasn’t good enough or wasn’t the
right thing. This may have resulted from his biological needs being subtly or overtly judged and
rejected, leading to the sense that they were wrong, or from having an overcritical and emotionally
withholding parent who imposed very high standards that seemed to the young One impossible to live
up to. One or both parents may have had very One-ish tendencies such as strong moral judgmentalness
and fundamental religious beliefs. Sometimes the whole early situation was a setup, in which he was
looked to by the parents to fulfill unfillable needs, such as replacing a lost loved one, resulting in a
profound sense of not being good enough or having what it takes for the task.
Regardless of the source, the One is left with the sense of not being what was needed or wanted in
the environment and of being somehow wrong. In order to return to his prior state of bliss, it becomes
critical for him to deduce, form, and create an idea of what perfection is. He tries to figure out what
mom wants, what will restore the sense of harmony and once again allow his soul to relax and
reconnect him with the lost perfection. So his instinctual drive to reestablish homeostasis is turned
toward trying to be good, achieve perfection, and make mommy happy. Eventually his drive energy
gets fully coopted into this striving for perfection, and in time this quest turns him against his own
instinctual energy. Ultimately the perfection he seeks is his depths—the realm of Being—with which
he has lost touch, and the memory of contact with this realm takes on the distorted outlines of ideals
that the One uses as his subjective yardstick. Reality, inner and outer, is gauged against these pictures
and beliefs of how things ought to be, and the relative distance to “perfect” is calculated. Inevitably
reality always falls short of his standards, and he seems unable to perceive anything as perfect,
particularly himself. This is the source of his intense self-criticism, in which he is constantly judging
and rebuking himself for his imperfections.
This assessment of proximity to the ideal is definitely not neutral. A further step is then taken,
which turns the Ennea-type One into a perfectionist: what is not perfect is deemed bad. To tolerate
what he determines to be bad would mean tolerating his estrangement from Being, which in the depths
of his soul is intolerable, and so what is bad becomes unacceptable. In this way, he creates distance
and defends himself against the experience of loss of Being.
A One’s judgments about what is good and what is bad are relative, determined by his own
orientation. So being sexually liberated might be seen by a feminist One as good, while to a bornagain
Christian, it would probably seem bad. Whether conservative or liberal, however, Ones tend -
toward orthodoxy in whatever views they hold. It is important to them to be politically correct—or in
spiritual circles, spiritually so—and to hold tenaciously what they consider to be the right “line.”
With his determinations of good and bad in place, it becomes obvious then what needs to be done:
he sets about trying to improve himself and others to make them good and therefore acceptable. This
becomes an inner orientation and way of relating to life both inwardly and outwardly: trying to make
things better. Driven by this deep feeling of wrongness, Ones are constantly striving to correct things,
and are restless and anxious about the way things are, which to them is not as they should be. The
quest for perfection, then, is his trap, as we see on Diagram 9.
This orientation toward perfection is apparent in the extreme need of Ones to be seen as good and,
conversely, in the extreme difficulty that they have when what they consider a flaw or imperfection is
pointed out to them. Feedback becomes instantly translated internally into criticism, which they may
fend off by becoming defensive, obviously trying to resurrect an inner evaluation of being good. When
they confront a psychological issue or an undeveloped capacity, they believe that they should already
have mastered the difficulty, they judge themselves harshly, and then assume that since they have not
resolved it yet that they never will. Then they feel hopeless about themselves, assuming that
something is wrong with them, confirming their underlying sense of wrongness. When they relate to
themselves in this way, as though they should already be enlightened, it is clear that there is little
room for growth and little tolerance for development in the inner world of a One. On the other hand,
Ones sometimes look for criticism from others as a way of orienting themselves in terms of knowing
what is wrong and therefore what needs fixing and how to do it.
Another manifestation of this need for things to be good is an intolerance of negative emotions. It is
very difficult for a One to tolerate complaints, sadness, or hostility both in themselves and in others.
They tend to try to keep things positive, and will offer counsel such as, “Cheer up—think of all you
have to be grateful for,” “How can you be unhappy—you have so much going for you,” and “Look on
the sunny side of things,” even to the point of telling the other person that they are not really feeling
sad or ill. Or, trying to make things better, a One might give advice such as “Just do this and
everything will be fine.” Allowing the negative threatens to bring up his unbearable sense of
wrongness.
They try hard—and pride themselves on trying harder than others—to correct and make things
better. They have a sense of moral superiority, driven by an inner gyroscope of what is right and good.
They preach, advise, crusade, and try to help others become more the way Ones believe they should
be, feeling a sense of mission to achieve perfection even if it means wringing it out of the world
around them. This was exemplified in the turn of the century “white man’s burden” of bringing
civilization to the “less developed” races, believing Christianity and Western culture would save the
souls of those they regarded as heathens. They are grammarians, moralists, and experts about what is
proper and how to do things correctly. Miss Manners comes to mind, as well as Martha Stewart, who
tells us how to do things perfectly around our homes, and in her magazine Martha Stewart: Living
devotes a section to “good things.”
Dedicated to what appears to a One as right, it is inconceivable to him that there might be more than
one correct way things could be, and so there is little room in his mind for divergence from his
opinion. He has little regard or respect for the boundaries or the wishes of others in his quest to make
things perfect, since what is right supersedes all personal preferences in his opinion. Making the world
perfect is for Ones a just and noble cause in which they are the champions. They are the good cops,
policing the world. Proud of their own self-control, they are often very controlling of others. What you
do is their business, and they let you know when you are stepping out of line.
While these perfectionistic traits may be difficult for others and are also often painful for Ones
themselves, they feel obligated to do what they perceive as right; this is an obligation rooted in their
love and loyalty for the lost sense of perfection. This continual effort to perfect themselves and the
surrounding world becomes in itself idealized, and it is part of what they believe makes them good.
The way this works is that even though they feel they are fundamentally bad, because they know this
and are trying to be better, they have some chance at redemption. In fact, to stop trying to improve
things often means to Ones losing the only shred of goodness that they feel they have and losing their
only hope of finding the lost sense of precious perfection. To stop this trying would be tantamount to
succumbing to their estrangement from True Nature and really being without any possibility of
salvation. Trying to change things becomes viewed as noble, and so they become evangelical, zealots
for the “good.” The focus gets shifted in the process from their inner sense of imperfection—which
often gets buried in the unconscious—to all the flaws they see in others and in the world. The effort to
make reality conform to their ideals becomes a kind of holy crusade, which sometimes feels uplifting
and at other times a cause they resent feeling compelled to participate in. We will return to this
resentment that gives this ennea-type its name when discussing the passion.
The Crusades of the Middle Ages exemplify on a mass scale what it is like to be a One. Christian
Europeans believed they had a moral obligation to save the Holy Land from the infidels and that they
would be ennobled by making this effort, even if they failed. From a psychological point of view,
every One becomes identified with his superego, fighting a campaign against the inner infidel, which
to him resides in the seething cauldron of instinctual drives that is the id. Inner pictures of how he
should be stand in stark and anxiety-provoking contrast to the dark and forbidden impulses of the
instinctual self. To a One, this instinctual self is seen as the enemy, as what is wrong with himself and
others. This is because the instinctual self is essentially self-centered and pleasure driven, oblivious to
others except as sources of gratification, uninterested in anything beyond corporeal enjoyment, and is
greedy, amoral, and unrefined. It feels animalistic, although animals are never as base and gross as
this part of human beings is.
There is a grain of truth buried in the belief that this instinctual self is the problem. We have seen
that it is the reactivity to impingements and unmet physical needs in early infancy that gradually
severs the soul’s connection to Being, as discussed in Chapter 1. We become identified with the body
and its instinctual drives, and the paradise of oneness with Being becomes a distant dream. The Enneatype
One deals with this animal part—which, it is important to remember, all of us have—by
identifying with what he considers to be the “good” parts of himself: those that are virtuous, selfless,
compassionate, and benevolent. Through his superego, he tries to control and reform the “bad”
instinctual parts and so becomes identified with being on the side of the good. In his righteousness
about fighting the good inner fight, he neglects to see that his rejection of the primitive within does
not transform it but instead only gives it more power in the unconscious and causes it to leak out
behaviorally in one way or another. We have seen this exemplified often enough in the religious
zealots who preach about morality and decry sinfulness, only to be caught in seedy and scandalous
sexual peccadilloes or revealed to have embezzled vast sums of money from their faithful flocks.
He also ignores the fact that a great deal of aggression, which itself is fueled by the rejected and
buried instinctual self, goes into his quest to make things good and right. Because this aggression is
unacceptable in its raw form and so blocked, it is no longer pure instinctual drive but rather a
distortion of it. This distortion takes the form of anger, the passion of this ennea-type, as we see on the
Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. He is angry at the bad, to put it succinctly, and his anger is an
attempt to change it while at the same time distancing himself from it.
Ichazo, according to Naranjo, defines anger as a “standing against reality,”3 and perhaps this sense
of being at odds with what is, most purely describes this passion. Ones meet reality with
preconceptions/false affirmation, the phrase that appears at Point One on the Enneagram of Lies,
Diagram 12. With their sense of how things ought to be acting as a compass, Ones pit themselves
against and try to change what they encounter both inwardly and outwardly. Nothing is ever quite
right, and so they are never satisfied. Feeling responsible for fixing what they perceive as bad, they
end up feeling frustrated and resentful.
This perpetual hostility toward reality, which is the passion of anger, is at root a malice toward
himself: he is self-resenting, dissatisfied with and indignant toward his own soul, as we see on the
Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11. His anger has many nuances. It covers the spectrum from
an underlying resentfulness thinly concealed beneath a veneer of politeness to violent outbursts of
pure rage. Along with his sense of being wrong, directly experiencing his anger is a One’s most
avoided experience, and this is why anger also appears on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10.
Most Ones repress their anger unless they are convinced that it is objective, and then they feel
justified in giving vent to it. Some Ones simply seem perpetually annoyed, peeved, and irritated by
everything and everyone, while others have flashes of righteous indignation which feel fully warranted
because of the “obvious” badness, meanness, or unworthiness of another. Some Ones are like pressure
cookers who keep a lid on their rage until it reaches critical mass and they blow the gasket. They may
appear calm and serene most of the time, but in the privacy of their own homes with those they feel
comfortable with, they explode in critical tirades or violent rages complete with thrown dishes,
slamming of doors, if not physical violence.
The anger may manifest as a general attitude of faultfinding, criticality, nit-picking, and fussiness
in which the One emanates the message that things are just not up to snuff; or a One may point out all
of your flaws and offer supposedly helpful “constructive criticism,” given for the best of reasons—
your own good—which cuts nonetheless to the quick. They may be constantly correcting your
grammar or making it painfully clear to you which unspoken rule you are breaking. They tend to be
preachy and take the role of teacher or exemplar. They may give you unsolicited advice—which they
really feel is for your own good—in which they communicate the obvious fact, in their eyes, that they
know what is right and you clearly do not and are screwing up in one way or another. Ones may not
recognize their criticalness and advice giving as adversarial and belligerent, but the hurt and anger
triggered in those on the receiving end leave no doubt about the One’s underlying and often
unconscious aggression.
It is easy for a One to recognize and align himself with his anger if he feels justified, i.e., that he is
right and correct, or if his anger can be made into a cause in which God or goodness appears to be on
his side. And it is relatively easy for him to feel that his anger is warranted when the wrongness
appears to reside firmly outside of himself, as it seems to a One who has done little introspection and
inner work. Internally the “bad” parts of himself are pushed away, and so they also appear to be
outside of the good self he takes himself to be, and his aggression is directed just as mercilessly
against these bad parts as it is toward the badness he sees in others. The more conscious a One
becomes, however, the more he will see that his underlying critical and angry attitude is itself an
issue. The compulsive assessing, carping, and fits of pique themselves become an enormous source of
anguish to a One. His internal self-criticism and relentless self-blame, which become obvious once he
turns his attention from outside himself to what is going on inside, in time come to be felt as brutal
and hurtful, and perhaps not serving what is good after all.
Just as the aggressive drive of the instinctual self becomes distorted into the various shades of
anger, the libidinal drive also undergoes a twist: sexuality becomes a highly conflictual area for Ones.
It is viewed as naughty, if not downright bad and immoral, since there is so much unbridled instinctual
energy involved and so little control. If sex can be justified as fulfilling some higher purpose than
pure mutual pleasure, such as doing one’s duty to procreate for the good of one’s nation or religion,
then it is tolerable—if it is not enjoyed too much.
Physical pleasure is itself subversive and suspect to most Ones, certainly those of previous
generations. Contemporary Ones tend to be more liberal sexually but nonetheless still have difficulty
and often guilt about fully allowing themselves pleasure. Enjoying himself, being carefree, and—God
forbid!—hedonistic smack of amorality to many a One, and so are forbidden territory. Fully allowing
himself to feel saturated in pleasure seems sinful. Underlying this judgment is fear—of his superego
ruthlessly judging him, of enormous guilt, and of losing control—and so is not allowed. It is as though
allowing pleasure would be opening Pandora’s box and would lead to becoming a slave of his animal
instincts and therefore perpetually running amok. There is a self-denying, self-punishing, or selfcastigating
and penitent quality about a One’s sexual inhibition and restraint. As a result, a One’s
sexuality remains largely unintegrated, remaining raw, crude, juvenile, and often quite awkward. It
often retains the feel of a schoolboy or schoolgirl doing something very lewd and nasty that they seem
not too familiar with but are nonetheless tantalized by.
The disparaged and thus suppressed instinctual drives sometimes break through in Ones in episodes
of uncontrolled and uncontrollable acting out alluded to earlier. In the extreme, this is what happens in
the fiery bouts of rage mentioned above, and in the scandals that surface from time to time in which
some prominent member of Congress or the British Parliament, for example, turns out to have a
propensity for kinky sex with prostitutes or transvestites; or when a priest is revealed to have had
ongoing affairs with his female parishioners, particularly the married ones, or to have molested his
choirboys; when the proselytizing twelve-stepper disappears for days at a time on drunken binges
about which he remembers nothing later; and when the antiwar activist turns out to have a long history
of spousal abuse. Less extreme ways that a One’s suppressed drives leak out might be in dreams of
debauchery, fantasies of lewd orgies, reading steamy romance novels, or watching X-rated videos or
television while professing to deplore licentiousness.
Ones have what is clinically called an obsessional character. They are methodical, organized,
collected, productive, and hardworking. They tend to be compulsively neat and tidy, wanting
everything to be both clean and in its proper place. This can reach the extreme of being truly
obsessive, in which the person is driven by an inordinate need for order, is miserly and totally
inflexible—as was the character Melvin Udall in the film As Good As It Gets. Some Ones are so
obsessed with doing things perfectly and thoroughly that it takes them forever to get anything
accomplished, while others rush through things out of anxiousness about their capacity to do the job
well and also out of a desire to unburden themselves of the responsibility. This same insecurity may
arise around decision making: fearing that they will make the wrong choice, they often procrastinate.
All of these characteristics are, from a clinical point of view, of the obsessive-compulsive variety, and
are the manifestations of deep superego and id conflicts, which we have discussed earlier. Seen from
this angle, the obsessive tendencies in a One are attempts to clean himself up and make himself pure,
as well as a means of expiating the profound inner guilt for his “imperfections.”
The preoccupation with cleanliness belies an attempt to eradicate an inner sense of uncleanness, just
as the preoccupation with orderliness bespeaks a fending off of internal chaos resulting from
unintegrated instinctual energies. This attempt to keep an anxiety-provoking state or emotion firmly
locked away in the unconscious by overemphasizing its opposite brings us to and describes the
defense mechanism of this ennea-type, which is called reaction formation. In reaction formation,
whatever emotion or behavior we believe to be dangerous to feel or act upon gets pushed out of
consciousness, and an opposite and acceptable emotion or behavior replaces it. If feeling hatred is
taboo, for example, we might defend against the inner threat of feeling it by experiencing love instead.
On the other hand, if we are afraid of love, we might substitute rejection, indifference, or hatred in its
stead. Reaction formation lies behind the mechanism central to Ones in which the sense of being bad
is warded off by identifying with their superego and seeing themselves as good and others as bad. It
also underlies the One’s continual staving off of instinctual temptations through morally pitting
themselves against them. As Charles Brenner says about reaction formation:
One consequence of our knowledge of the operation of this defense mechanism is that whenever we
observe an attitude of this sort which is unrealistic or excessive, we wonder whether it may not be so
overemphasized as a defense against its opposite. Thus we should expect that a devoted pacifist or
antivivisectionist, for instance, has unconscious fantasies of cruelty and hatred which appear to his
ego to be particularly dangerous.4
Ultimately Ones are defending against a deep inner sense of wrongness though imitating purity and
goodness.
Keeping at bay forbidden urges and the perception of forbidden flaws requires of Ones a great deal
of inner discipline and self-control. The attempts to control others and the environment are a mirror of
this internal checking, curbing, and restraining of themselves. The result is a characteristic stiffness
and lack of spontaneity. This may make them appear stilted in their movements, manner, or speech as
they carefully and deliberately rein themselves in and hold themselves back. Their thinking may
reflect this tendency, making them stick to known and accepted ideas, and not venturing into anything
more creative. Their ideas tend to become rigid and fixed, with little room for innovation or
experimentation. What does not clearly fall within their concept of rightness is threatening, and so
playing with ideas that have not found their way into categories of right or wrong, good or bad tends to
be anxiety provoking. When a new idea or insight does arise, it becomes a new standard, reflecting
their tendency to make rules out of truth. They are sticklers for following the rules and the law
dogmatically, disregarding the uniqueness of a particular situation. There is for them a certain security
in methodically following preestablished guidelines, and a corresponding insecurity that arises in
questioning underlying principles.
Energetically and emotionally the self-control of Ones leads to a particular kind of rigidity and
contraction. While some Ones do not experience or express negative emotions like pain and fear, even
in those who do, there is a characteristic lack of ease, relaxation, flexibility, vulnerability, and
softness about them, a sense that their guard is always up. They tend to have a tight-jawed and tightlipped
quality, related to curbing their wants and stopping the expression of their anger, which, along
with their propensity for advice giving and preaching, accounts for the mouth being the part of the
body associated with this type. At the extreme, they seem to others pinched, severe, austere,
straitlaced, formal, humorless, prosaic, and stiff-necked. To his detriment during his presidency, the
persona of Jimmy Carter exemplifies this One-ish quality; and Hillary Rodham Clinton is sometimes
perceived in this way. Other exemplars displaying less of this stiffness who were or are probably Ones
include Jimmy Stewart and Katharine Hepburn and, more currently, Anthony Edwards, Barbra
Streisand, Nicole Kidman, and Cybill Shepherd. Dana Carvey’s Church Lady is a great caricature of a
One.
Ones tend to be inflexible and uncompromising when they believe they are correct. There is little
room for discussion and disagreement with a One once they have made up their minds about
something, and they are tenacious once fixed on something. It is perhaps for this reason that the
animal associated with this type is the dog, who can chew on a bone that cannot be wrested from him.
Dogs are also unswervingly loyal, as Ones are, to what they consider right.
Ones, then, come across as good, clean, nice people—with a lot of latent hostility and frustration.
They are compulsively honest, the George Washingtons who cannot tell a lie—even if the truth hurts
another. They are dependable, trustworthy, and hardworking—righteously so. They are earnest and
clean-faced—to the point of plainness, as exemplified in the farming couple in the famous painting
American Gothic. They are people - driven by good intentions—even if you don’t want their charity—
and high moral standards—to the point of becoming puritanical.
Puritanism itself is a One-ish phenomenon. The American Puritans of the seventeenth century broke
away from the Anglican Church, which was far too liberal for them, and brought their religious fervor
to the New World. They believed that God is absolutely sovereign, that man is totally depraved and
completely dependent on God’s grace for redemption. Believing themselves to be God’s elect with a
mission to enforce His Will in the nascent commonwealth, they dictated colonial politics until their
influence declined in the eighteenth century. These Pilgrims, the Founding Fathers of the United
States, are the source of the very One-ish current in American culture: our strong sense of morality, of
doing what is good, right, and just, as well as our tendency to act as the world’s moral enforcer. The
current hyperinterest in and scrutiny of presidential sexuality, which is inconceivable and incongruous
to Europeans, for instance, who do not have such a history of moral aspiration, reflects this One-ish
cultural strain. American idealism and emphasis on being good coexist uneasily with the other
dominant cultural current, our Three-ish drive for personal success and gain with its self-serving
amorality, as mentioned in the previous chapter.
One-ish behavior is also associated with Victorianism, named for Queen Victoria, although Prince
Albert is really responsible for the prudishness and austerity associated with the era. He imposed strict
decorum at the English court and infused propriety and primness into British cultural mores. The
English culture seems to be a mix of One and Four tendencies—its emphasis on social form and
decorum, and its aesthetic inclinations resulting from the latter—with its current queen, Elizabeth, and
perhaps Elizabeth I as well, seeming to be Ennea-type Ones.
More currently, we see One-ish phenomena in the right-to-life movement, whose defense of life
paradoxically does not prevent extremists from killing doctors who perform abortions or blowing up
Planned Parenthood centers. A more widespread example would be advocates for social reform who
have very little consideration for actual people. We see it whenever there is a group who believes that
they are right and have God on their side and pit themselves against another group whom they see as
bad or wrong. Bertolt Brecht may have been summarizing One-ish philosophy when he wrote, “We
who wanted a world based on kindness could not ourselves be kind.”
We have seen that the personality traits of each of the ennea-types mimic and attempt to
replicate a particular spiritual state, as though the soul were attempting to reconnect with the lost Holy
Idea by shaping itself into a copy of a state that seems to embody this missing Idea. In the case of
Ennea-type One, this state—the idealized Aspect—is called Brilliancy in the terminology of the
Diamond Approach. Brilliancy is the intelligence of Being. It is a particular presence that is like a
flash of lightning or the sparkling of sunlight on the ocean. It has a brightness to it, an illuminating
quality, a radiance, a clarity, an acuity. It is Being penetrating with its intelligence, and discerning,
understanding, and synthesizing what it encounters. We ordinarily think of intelligence or brightness
as being purely mental qualities, but here we see that true intelligence is something more than that. It
is the intelligence of our souls when we are truly being, when we are fully present. Being fully present
means that we are embodied and open emotionally to what our consciousness comes in contact with,
and when our intelligence penetrates what we encounter, we experience this bright presence.
The state of Brilliancy also has the qualities of purity, timelessness, and refinement about it. Like
the pure radiance in a flash of insight, Brilliancy illumines the soul with understanding in a way that is
clean, clear, and right to the point. One of its central characteristics is its synthetic capacity, in which
all of the elements of a situation form a unity in the mind, all the various threads merge into one
understanding. Brilliancy is the source of the human ability to synthesize—it is what we experience in
the moment that all the elements of a situation come together and form a whole within us. It is also
the source of true wisdom. The purity of Brilliancy opens the heart of a One. His heart’s desire is to
see purely and completely and to experience himself as pure and complete. Brilliancy holds for him
the promise of connecting him with his lost sense of perfection. It is the Essential Aspect or state of
consciousness that feels like the embodiment of the lost Holy Perfection.
Imitation Brilliancy takes the form of having to have the correct answers and needing to be right,
and of being a know-it-all who thinks in a way that is divorced from experiential contact. Such
knowing is intellectual, of the mind only, and has little to do with the situation at hand. When we are
being falsely brilliant, we are convinced that our view is the correct one, that how we see things is how
they are. We are taking a position of asserting our identity as someone who has the correct knowledge.
Such preconceived ideas can only be based on opinion and on the past, and this “someone” we take
ourselves to be is inevitably a mental construct, and so not immediate.
Seen from this angle, Ennea-type One looks uncannily like a facsimile of Brilliancy. The overriding
concern about being right and being good, which assumes that there is only one right answer or way to
be and that they need to figure it out and live it, as well as the overarching characteristic of meeting
life with preconceived standards, illustrates this. These central traits of Ones are distortions of the
direct knowing that arises when we contact the moment in a direct and experiential way, with a
freshness devoid of preconceptions. The One’s drive to be pure is an emulation of the purity inherent
in the experience of Brilliancy. Their proclivity to impose their values and standards upon others is an
emulation of the quality of our true intelligence, which knows no boundaries and can penetrate into
anything we wish to understand. Their sharpness, whether in manner or in criticality, emulates the
acuity and precision of Brilliancy. Ironically, many Ones, such as Hillary Rodham Clinton, have a
shiny, scrubbed, and clean appearance, reflecting the luminosity of this essential quality that they are
attempting to embody.
To transform their consciousness, Ennea-type Ones need to approach their inner process as well
as their outer lives with an attitude of serenity, the virtue of this point, as we see on the Enneagram of
Virtues in Diagram 1. What does serenity mean in this context? Primarily it means not going along
with the personality’s characteristic tendency to react against what we are experiencing. When we are
identified with our personality, instead of simply allowing and being with our experience, we try to do
something about, to, or with it. We cannot just leave it alone and be open to touching it directly with
our consciousness so that understanding can arise. This is the pitting of oneself against reality which,
as we have seen, is Ichazo’s definition of anger, the passion of this ennea-type. When we oppose our
experience, we are simply reinforcing the “I” that is reacting. We are, in other words, strengthening
our personality and our identification with it.
While all personality types share this kind of reactivity, it is most central to Ones and is the biggest
stumbling block in their inner work. It is very difficult for Ones to relate to inner experiences or
perceptions about themselves without immediately evaluating them, i.e., attempting to ascertain
whether they are good or bad, on the basis of judgments and evaluations rooted in the past. This is a
reflexive reaction for Ones, a central and compulsive inner movement, and it is hard for them to
imagine responding to their experience in any other way. If a One decides that what he is experiencing
is bad, he tries to change it so that it is good. If he decides that a perception about himself is bad, he
becomes defensive about it. In either case, he does not leave the experience alone, meeting it as it is,
without an attitude toward it. Although the focus remains primarily on what is not right about his
experience, sometimes what he encounters he decides is good—at least momentarily. If so, he tries to
hold on to the experience, and that clutching disengages him from it. Any reaction to our experience—
whether moving toward it, away from it, or trying to alter it—creates a contraction in the soul and
blocks our capacity to learn from it. Our Brilliancy cannot function and we cannot understand
ourselves more deeply, which is what is necessary for our consciousness to grow and change.
Anger blinds us to the truth. When we are in its grip, we are defending ourselves against what we
are reacting to. We are trying to push it away or push at it to change it, and we are caught in the grip of
our subjective reality. We are supporting who we take ourselves to be, and we are siding with and
defending our identifications. Rather than trying to understand what button inside of our own psyches
has been triggered, we are set against the object of our wrath.
If we are serious about discovering the truth of who we are, an orientation of serenity toward our
experience is necessary. Serenity means meeting the moment with openness of heart and mind—
accepting whatever arises within or without—and not contracting against it. Rather than habitually
judging or evaluating our experience, we simply open, allowing ourselves to be touched by what is
there. This necessitates allowing ourselves not to know, which in turn means defending against our
superego’s demands for certainty. It also means letting go of our beliefs about what should or
shouldn’t be happening, and about what is good or bad. It means not protecting ourselves from what
we consider bad, unpleasant, or uncomfortable. It means letting our consciousness fully meet our
experience so that we can know directly what it is that we are in touch with. As we do this, we open to
the truth of the moment, and so our consciousness can be impacted by it. Rather than attempting to
preserve a positive sense of self, we see ourselves as we really are. Without our judgments, what we
find is just what is, unobscured with veils from our past.
So for a One, a serene attitude toward himself initiates specific stages of inner transformation.
These stages begin with perceiving his identification with the superego—seeing in bold relief the
pattern of judgments and standards, seeing their arbitrariness, and the suffering, pain, and torment
within that they cause. He needs to understand why this need for standards is so strong, which will
mean understanding it as a defense against experiencing himself as bad as well as against deeper
layers of his personality, and as his hope for return to the lost bliss of perfection. The psychodynamics
—the influences of his history in creating this pattern—also need to be seen and digested. His habitual
defensive attitude toward what he experiences as criticism and toward what he considers not good
about himself will also need to be perceived and understood. This will eventually lead to a relaxing of
the need to evaluate his experience and set himself in opposition to it. Gradually as he becomes more
open and nonreactive—i. e., more serene—the parts of himself that he has been judging and defending
against will begin to reveal themselves. Emotional states that he has viewed as negative will arise that
he increasingly learns to tolerate and feel fully, and these in turn begin to be transformed. The more
that he embraces and accepts these aspects of himself, the more his soul relaxes, and his ego activity
stills with the sense that there is nothing to do and nothing to fix inside.
Ichazo’s definition of the virtue of serenity might be useful here: “It is emotional calm, expressed
by a body at ease with itself and receptive to the energy of the Kath [the belly center]. Serenity is not a
mental attitude but the natural expression of wholeness in a human being secure in his capacities and
totally self-contained.” So rather than attempting to be perfect, he experiences his completeness, and
so is serene. Access to the belly center comes through integrating his instinctual layer. The source of
many of his drives and feelings, this layer will come to the surface of consciousness and needs to be
digested through awareness and understanding of it. As he does this, these deep drives that he has been
so busily defending against become more and more refined and less and less compulsive.
Beneath his object relations and the animal-like parts of the soul, he encounters empty places that
he initially interprets as meaning that he is bad and not good enough. To the extent that he does not
react to these holes, his consciousness can investigate and penetrate them. A profound inner
spaciousness arises to which the labels “good” and “bad” have no relevance. Beyond the obscuring
structures that clouded his consciousness, the vibrancy and aliveness of Being gradually shine
through. Integrating these aspects of himself makes him and his life increasingly feel more rich, threedimensional,
real, full, spontaneous, unpredictable, and wondrous.
This process is neither linear nor rapid, and while each individual One’s traveling of this territory
will have individual variations, these are the rough outlines. The receptivity and openness to inner
experience, which are the attitude of serenity, are necessary at each juncture. At the same time,
serenity becomes more and more of an inner state as a One’s inner work progresses. The Latin root of
the word serene means “clear, unclouded, and untroubled.” This is how a One becomes as he
progressively ceases reacting to his experience. Who he is beyond the clouds of the personality—the
veils of his historical self—becomes clearer and clearer and he sees reality increasingly more
objectively, as it is. In the process, his consciousness calms down and he becomes less easily ruffled.
His heart opens, his mind relaxes, and his perception becomes more transparent—truly brilliant.
Perceiving with love and enjoyment instead of judgment, he can settle into the moment and just be.
More and more consistently, he abides in a deep inner quietude and is at peace with himself and the
world. He can at last know his inherent and unalterable perfection.





* *




Ennea-type Nine is the “mother” of all ennea-types, to borrow a turn of phrase from that infamous
Eight, Saddam Hussein. As we saw in Chapter 1, Point Nine represents the principle of losing contact
with our essential nature, and because this estrangement from our True Nature is common to all egos,
all of the other types can be seen as differentiations of this fundamental archetype of personality. To
put it differently, this personality type is the one most purely anchored in issues relating to the
forgetting of our real self—the falling asleep to our deepest nature—and the other types are variations
or embellishments of this basic principle at the heart of the ego.
Briefly summarizing the characteristics of this ennea-type, Nines shun calling personal attention to
themselves. They do not come across as big personalities, and instead may seem nondescript or
indistinct. They place others before themselves, and have a hard time being primary in their own and
other people’s attention. Preferring to give others the limelight, they see themselves as less important
and consequential, and tend to fade into the background. Rarely asserting themselves, they like
keeping things harmonious and pleasant, and have difficulty doing or saying anything that others
might find offensive, uncomfortable, or controversial. So they shun confrontations, rarely express
negative feelings or opinions, and focus on the positive. They are excellent mediators, able to see
everyone’s point of view, but often have difficulty discerning and expressing their own. They have
difficulty figuring out and attending to what is really essential for themselves personally. This can run
the gamut from neglecting their inner life, to not paying attention to their feelings and thoughts, to not
taking care of what they need to in their lives.
Externally directed, they may be very active or inclining toward laziness, but in either case they
leave themselves and their own personal needs out of the picture. They tend to get lost in the details of
life, and have trouble discriminating what really needs their attention. Inclining - toward inertia, they
have a difficult time getting moving and, once moving, have difficulty changing course and stopping.
They tend toward muddledness and can be a bit chaotic, but in a pleasant and inoffensive kind of way.
Inner feelings of worthlessness, unimportance, and inadequacy form their central sense of deficiency,
and they soothe themselves with comforts and diversions to numb out these painful feelings.
Energetically Nines are solid and stable, dependable and kind.
Just as the central orientation of the personality type associated with Point Nine is the most
fundamental—forgetting ourselves—so too is the Holy Idea of this point. The Holy Idea of each point
is, as we have discussed in the Introduction, a particular way that we perceive reality when all of the
subjective veils of the personality are absent. Each Holy Idea is a way of seeing the nature of reality
from a slightly different vantage point, all of which are enlightened views of it and all of which are
equally true. Each ennea-type is sensitive to the Holy Idea associated with it, which means that it is
the most unstable; and when each type loses contact with Being, so too goes its Holy Idea. As we will
explore in detail in discussing each type, the loss of its Holy Idea creates a basic blind spot for each
type.
The particular perspective on reality—the Holy Idea—that Ennea-type Nine is especially sensitive
to is called Holy Love. Holy Love is the perception that reality, when seen without the filter of ego, is
inherently loving and lovely, delighting and delightful, pleasing and pleasurable, full of wonder and
wonderful. Holy Love points to the fact that Being is both the source of love and love itself, and that
all of existence is a manifestation and embodiment of that love. Holy Love does not refer to the
feeling of love itself, but rather to the perception that Being or True Nature is inherently positive and
affects us in favorable ways. Almaas calls this characteristic “nonconceptual positivity,” and as he
says, it is difficult to convey in words, since it is something beyond our usual comparative notions of
positive versus negative, or goodness versus badness. It does not imply that everything that happens is
positive but rather that the fundamental nature of all of creation is beneficial and propitious. Hinduism
refers to this characteristic of reality as ananda, or “blissfulness,” and it is the basis of the bhakti, or
“devotional” spiritual paths, which invoke and cultivate this uplifting characteristic of Being.
Holy Love is neither an emotion, then, nor is it an essential state. This may be a bit difficult to
grasp, but might become clearer from the following quote of Almaas in which he describes the
perception of Holy Love in various Essential Aspects, or states of consciousness:
Holy Love is a clear and distinct quality of the very substance and consciousness of each essential
aspect. Holy Love is seen in the positive, uplifting, and blissful affect and effect of each aspect. It is
the sweetness and softness in Love. It is the lightness and playfulness in Joy. It is the preciousness and
the exquisiteness of Intelligence and Brilliancy. It is the purity and the confidence of Will. It is the
aliveness, excitement, and glamour of the Red or Strength aspect. It is the mysteriousness and silkiness
in the Black or Peace aspect. It is the wholeness and integrity in the Pearl or Personal Essence. It is
the freshness and the newness of Space. It is the depth, the deep warmth, and the satisfying realness of
Truth.1
Holy Love is the perception that our essential nature, regardless of which of its qualities is forefront
at any given time, is innately beautiful and that the experience of it is always a positive experience. So
on a personal level, since our essential nature forms the nucleus of all that we are, Holy Love tells us
that we are therefore fundamentally beautiful and lovable, and our inseparability from Being is what
makes this so. True Nature, in other words, suffuses our souls and our bodies with beauty and
lovableness, and is what makes us beautiful and lovable.
When we experience Being directly, without the filter of our conceptual mind, the effect it has upon
us is of a sense of meaning, of value, of benefit, of fulfillment. Our souls relax, our hearts open, and
we experience a sense of well-being in such moments. We are responding to the inherent
characteristic of reality that Holy Love describes—its pure positivity. As Almaas says,
When you objectively apprehend reality . . . you cannot help but feel positive toward it. In this
experience, there are no positive or negative categories that your mind has divided things into. There
is no polarity here; this nonconceptual positivity is beyond all polarities. The nature of reality, then,
is such that the more it touches your heart, the more your heart feels happy and full, regardless of
your mental judgments of good or bad.2
So the closer we are to our depths, the more in balance and in harmony we feel. This is because
Being is, from the angle of Holy Love, fundamentally positive and affects us as such. This explains
why being in touch with the truth of our experience and revealing ourselves as we are makes us feel
good, even if what we are getting in touch with or expressing is something we don’t like seeing or
disclosing about ourselves. We are moving deeper into ourselves, and so our souls are closer to and
more infused with the goodness of True Nature. Being more deeply in touch with ourselves just feels
better than not being in touch. Without this characteristic of Holy Love, we would not feel motivated
to travel any spiritual path. Contact with Being affects us in an agreeable, beneficial, and constructive
way, making the struggles and difficulties of becoming more conscious worth our time, energy, and
devotion.
In the course of working on ourselves, we learn in time that when we stay on the surface of
ourselves, which is to say when we are identified with and operating from our outer shell—our
personality—we suffer. The more asleep we are to the reality beneath our shells, the less we feel that
life is fulfilling, meaningful, and pleasurable. Or, in the language of the enneagram, the more fixated
we are, the less we partake of the loving nature of reality, for we have lost our connection with Holy
Love. Our suffering is not the result of being alone or of being in the wrong relationship, is not
because we don’t have enough money or because we have too much of it, or because of anything of the
sort. Nor is it because our outer surface doesn’t look as pretty as we think it should or because our
personality isn’t as pleasant as we think it might be. We suffer because we are living at a distance
from our depths—it’s as simple as that. The more our souls are infused with Being, the better we feel
and the better life seems to us, no matter what our outer circumstances happen to be.
This brings us to another nuance in our understanding of Holy Love, which has to do with its
universality. The inherent goodness of reality is not localized somewhere—it is implicit in the fabric
of all that exists. It is not a commodity that exists out there someplace, waiting for us to get in touch
with it. It does not reside in a particular person, nor is it dependent upon a particular situation. It is not
a separate something that is outside of ourselves. It is the nature of everything that exists, and we
don’t see this to the extent that we experience life through the veil of our personality. It may seem that
the goodness or beneficence of reality is something that comes and goes, that it is something we have
in one moment and lose in the next, and that is only accessible to us in certain situations and so is
about those circumstances. For example, it may seem that we only feel the goodness of life when
someone loves us or gives us attention, or when we get a promotion or a raise. Or, in the early stages
of a spiritual journey, we may only get in touch with our essential nature and experience ourselves as
wonderful and lovable when we are meditating or in the presence of our teacher, and so the positivity
of our nature seems like something that is ephemeral. This is only a stage—eventually we come to see
that the beauty and wonder of Being is not a something that resides in someone else or even that it is a
thing inside of us somewhere, but rather is the nature of everything and so is everywhere. From this
perspective, we see that there is in fact nothing but Being—it is not something we need to acquire or,
at a certain point, even connect with. The Journey, then, transforms into something else when there is
no longer the sense of it as a movement from here to there and when we recognize and abide in the
goodness and splendor of Being.
Without this perception, we might still perceive that there is benevolence in the universe, but we
don’t see that it is the nature of everything, including ourselves. When we lose contact with Holy
Love, we lose contact with its boundlessness, and it seems to us that the goodness of reality can be in
one place and not in another. So the positive becomes conditional and fleeting—it arises only in
particular situations and it is here one minute and gone the next. Likewise, one person can appear
lovable and another not.
This sense of the restrictiveness and the conditionality of the goodness of life makes possible the
delusion of Ennea-type Nine, which is the loss of perception of being made of love and so inherently
lovable. To a Nine, others appear lovable and seem to partake of the benevolence of life, while she
does not. This is the fundamental perceptual distortion of Ennea-type Nine, upon which rest all the
characteristics of this type. It is a distortion that might be difficult to see as such, since it is
fundamental to all personality types. If we consider, however, that the very substance of our bodies
and our consciousness is the expression and embodiment of Being, whose central characteristic is Its
positivity, how can we be anything but innately lovable? How can our lovability be determined by how
our bodies look, who loves us, or how much we have?
Along with the loss of contact with Essence, then, which as we have seen takes place in gradual
stages over the first three to four years of life, Ennea-type Nines lose the perception of Holy Love. For
a Nine, the process of losing contact with her essential nature results in the belief—the fixed cognitive
perception or fixation—that who she is is not inherently lovable, valuable, significant, meaningful, or
worthwhile. So the loss of contact with or turning away from Essence is also a disconnection from
experiencing herself as precious and worthy of all the positive things that life has to offer. She
experiences herself as outside of the goodness of life, not part of its fabric. This fundamental fixed
belief is the underpinning of all the resulting mental constructs, emotional affects, and behavioral
patterns of this type.
From the perspective of the forces in early life that shaped a Nine’s psyche, her psychodynamics,
the lack of holding and mirroring of her True Nature in infancy is interpreted by her as meaning that
who she is fundamentally is not worth being with and attending to. This deduction—albeit at its roots
a nonconceptual one—arises because of our soul’s inherent knowledge of her inseparability from that
core: If Being, which is who we fundamentally are, is not held and valued, we interpret this as
indicating that we are not valuable, lovable, worth being with, and so on. Filtered through a Nine’s
blindness to Holy Love, the perception—and thus experience—of her childhood is of not having
received much unconditional love, care, or attention. Whether or not she was physically or
emotionally neglected, the impression of not being personally attended to is strongly imprinted in
every Nine’s soul, since what is most real was indeed not sufficiently paid attention to: her essential
nature. Something almost completely universal—the lack of attunement to True Nature—is thus taken
very personally by Nines. Although never actually put into words, they come to the conclusion that
“Because my parents are not attuned to my depths, which is who I am, I must not be important and so
it is clear that I am fundamentally insignificant.”
Nines in turn forsake their inner depths, turning their consciousness away from Being in imitation
of their early caregivers. It is important to note that Being does not go away—it simply slips into the
unconscious. Since Being is who and what we are, one cannot turn away from it without turning away
from oneself, so Nines gradually start turning a deaf ear to themselves and expect that the world will
also. Interestingly enough, the ear is the part of the body associated with this type, and so they not
only characteristically fail to listen to themselves inwardly but often tune things out and miss what is
being said.
The “deafness” of Nines is at heart a loss of attunement to the realm of Essence, as we have seen.
So just as they believe that they can be to varying degrees negligible and forgettable, they have, with
losing contact with Essence, forgotten themselves. This self-forgetting, which is the hallmark of this
ennea-type, manifests from the depths to the outermost surface of the personality: from the forgetting
of Essence to simple forgetfulness in daily functioning. Self-forgetting basically describes a Nine’s
relationship to herself. For this reason, on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, which you will find in
Appendix B, self-forgetting appears at Point Nine. This enneagram refers to each ennea-type’s
characteristic relationship to what we experience as self—our soul—as discussed in the Introduction.
With their depths forgotten, an underlying attitude of “What’s the point of paying attention to
myself? There’s nothing of value in here anyway,” permeates the behavior, thoughts, and feelings of
Nines. They end up feeling that they are nothing special and that there is nothing remarkable about
them. The inner is neglected and forgotten, and the outer seems to be all that is worth paying attention
to. Outer expression and experience appear far more consequential than what is going on internally,
which in comparison seems insignificant and unimportant. They become more outer rather than inner
directed, synchronizing with and responding to what is needed by the environment and by others,
rather than responding to inner promptings. The needs of others drown out their own, which by
comparison feel less important and of a much lower priority. Their self-importance in time becomes
based on responding to and serving others rather than themselves.
In the process, the spiritual ground, which gives our outer expression and functioning meaning and
significance, is lost, so the outer husk of life becomes a shallow and lifeless shell. This loss of contact
with the spiritual dimension of ourselves, our essential nature, is of course the situation for those
identified with the personality, and that means at least 99 percent of humanity. Living a life that is
more than a shell is beyond the conception of most people, so living the husk of a life and forgetting
that there is anything more is a cultural given. So part and parcel of becoming a civilized human being
is this process of becoming like everyone else: losing contact with our depths. This process of human
adaptation or conditioning, which from a spiritual perspective is one of falling asleep and of selfforgetting,
is exemplified by this ennea-type.
When True Nature is not held and reflected back to us, we not only turn away from it, mimicking
how we are being related to, as we have seen, but we also add interpretations about why this is
happening. These notions are not conscious or even conceptual at their inception since they are formed
before we have the capacity to think, but they nonetheless color and flavor the whole of our
relationship to ourselves. More cognitive beliefs and attitudes about ourselves and the world we
inhabit, which develop later, are rooted in these preconceptual “interpretations.” For Nines, the
experience of their deepest nature not being held by the environment is not only interpreted as
meaning that who they fundamentally are is not worth contacting, is not inherently valuable and
lovable, and is ultimately forgettable, but also results in the felt sense that there is something
fundamentally lacking about them. This very painful feeling of lack carries the sense that there is
something missing, something unformed or undeveloped, something defective, or something
embryonic that has become twisted and deformed. For Nines, this is the sense of self that surrounds
the hole where contact with True Nature has been lost, and forms their fundamental sense of
deficiency. Each ennea-type has a characteristic deficiency state upon which the personality is built,
but all of them are variations on that of Point Nine: the basic inner sense that something is lacking or
inadequate about oneself.
In all the types, this sense of deficiency is the often unconscious basis of our inner picture of
ourselves—our self-image—which in turn shapes our experience of ourselves. A Nine sees and
experiences herself as someone who is fundamentally missing some parts, didn’t arrive with all that
was needed, is lacking something crucial, is stunted or misshapen, as though something basic never
developed fully or even at all, or perhaps was never there to begin with. There may even be the sense
for a Nine of her soul being stillborn or dead. Obviously this deeply painful sense of deficiency is a
reflection of the truth that she is indeed missing something crucial: contact with who she really is
beyond this self-image, which is based on insufficiency.
Our self-image does not arise in isolation, as we saw in Chapter 1. Our sense of self, which begins
to form in infancy and is rooted in the body, is based not only on internal sensations but also develops
through contact with the environment on the surface of our skin. So our sense of who we are always
arises in relation to what is other than us, i.e., what is beyond our body’s edges. Our self-image, then,
exists in counterpoint to an object-image, a conceptual picture of “other.” The other for Nines appears
to have what they don’t: others arrived with all their parts intact and are inherently lovable and
valuable. Compared to others, Nines feel acutely inferior: not as good, complete, or worthy. This sense
may have developed through having had a parent who appeared to the Nine as special and gifted in
some way, or who simply took up a lot of psychic space because of being highly emotive, mentally
unstable, or very outgoing. In relation to that parent, she became background, functioning as a
backdrop. Again, as discussed in the Introduction, it is important to remember that this may not have
been the main characteristic about that parent or even one that was especially strong. But because of a
Nine’s particular sensitivity, this was the one that she picked up on and responded to.
Having had a sibling who appeared more central in the family dynamics, one who was more
assertive or who had special qualities or special problems, is a common variation. Another is that of
growing up in a crowd: being one of many children or other relatives in the home, so the Nine ended
up feeling lost in the shuffle. Her role or function in the family may have seemed like all that
mattered, and so anything strictly personal about the Nine seemed unimportant and forgotten.
Regardless of who the object was (or were) that the sense of self arose in relation to, this primary
relationship forms the template for all subsequent experiences of self and other. In a nutshell, relative
to other, a Nine feels not only inferior but also inconsequential.
A Nine develops, then, a sense of invisibility and a deep resignation about ever being center stage
and loved or valued in her own right—both by others and also within her own consciousness—leading
to a pervasive self-abnegation. Nines assume that they will not get love and attention, and also that
they do not deserve it, since they have lost their innate sense of value and worth. This resigned selfabasement
manifests in many ways: they have great difficulty with attention being focused upon them,
with taking up their own space and other people’s time, with asking to be seen or heard, much less
loved, and tend to shun anything that would bring them to the fore or call attention to themselves.
They melt into the background, rarely expressing themselves in a group. Because reality has a peculiar
way of conforming to our beliefs about it, even when they do assert themselves and speak up, their
assumption that they will not be received is often, in fact, confirmed, and they are ignored. It is as
though they generate a field around them that says, “Don’t pay attention to me—I am not important.”
They are thus easily overlooked and not considered by others; this reflects and reinforces their basic
assumption about themselves. Ironically, many Nines are physically imposing, mesomorphic of body
type—large, round, and sturdy looking.
Each ennea-type defends against experiencing its core deficiency state because it is incredibly
painful and because it appears to be the bottom line—the ultimate and unalterable truth about oneself.
This belief that something is fundamentally lacking or wrong with us, like all of the convictions that
shape our personality, is not, once again, simply an intellectual idea—it is a felt experience and so
appears to be the truth. It feels so true that it seems ridiculous even to suggest that it is simply an
assumption. Because it seems to be reality, the energy of the personality goes into keeping one’s
consciousness away from this painful sense of deficiency, and all the defenses one uses feel necessary
and justified. Experiencing it seems as if it would only confirm it, and why question something that
appears so unshakably true? All of the defensive strategies and defense mechanisms of the personality
are at their core marshaled against this deficient experience of self.
Nines defend against their fundamental sense of being deficient and unlovable in a very
straightforward way: they simply push it out of consciousness. A numbing or deadening of inner
awareness and a shift of attention from inside oneself to outside seem to be the best ways of dulling
their inner pain. This lulling of oneself into psychic sleep is the defense mechanism of Point Nine,
which is called narcotization. Unfortunately, we cannot pick and choose which aspects of inner
experience we want to render unconscious and which we want to retain, so the result is that much, if
not all, of the inner life of a Nine fades into unawareness. The narcotizing of self can manifest visibly:
a Nine’s eyes may look dull, dead, or glazed over. It also manifests behaviorally in the form of a
predilection for distractions that divert her consciousness away from herself. One Nine I know has to
have the TV or radio on at all times, even when falling asleep at night, and wears a Walkman
whenever out for a walk. Burying herself in crossword puzzles, games like Trivial Pursuit, afternoon
talk shows, the newspaper, or getting lost in trashy novels are other forms of diversions that a Nine
might use to distract herself.
What results is a characteristic inner experience of being in a morass, a dense foggy state, in which
nothing is very defined or discriminated and everything feels murky and diffuse. A lack of vitality and
vibrancy and a sense of numbness, boredom, deadness, lethargy, and heaviness pervade. Naranjo used
to describe female Nines as “swamp queens,” which nicely describes the feel of this inner landscape—
languid and stagnant. It also conveys the feeling tone that is the passion of this ennea-type: indolence,
as we see on the Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. Characteristic of this marshy inner terrain is
this indolence, a quality of laziness and stuckness that exerts for this type an inexorable kind of
gravitational pull. It may take the form of procrastination and lethargy, having difficulty rousing
herself to accomplish the task at hand, or of doing everything except the one thing that really needs to
be done.
Part of the fuzziness of a Nine’s inner terrain is often due to her inability to tell what direction to
move in or which action needs to be taken. It is like bumping around in the darkness, bumbling along
following the line of least resistance, rather than clearly perceiving the appropriate course to take and
following it. An inner sense of chaos and disorder, which may be reflected outwardly in messiness and
clutter, is the more superficial manifestation of this inner state. What may appear to others as
procrastination may be a Nine’s need to order what she perceives as the chaos around her and bring
clarity to her environment before she can settle down to the task at hand, reflecting her attempt to
come to grips with her inner disarray. The guidance and orientation that only contact with self can
provide have been tuned out; a Nine’s inner knowing either - doesn’t break the surface of
consciousness or is ignored.
This indolent atmosphere, which could also be described as one of laziness and heedlessness, has
many levels and nuances to it, as we are seeing. The indolence might express itself in an obliviousness
to what needs attention or action, or if there is a sense that something needs to be done, a lack of
discrimination or difficulty determining what exactly it is; a difficulty assessing priority of
importance; and/or losing her focus and contact with herself in the details of the task or inadvertently
substituting another one for it. A Nine who is facing a crucial deadline on a project, for example,
might find herself cleaning the entire house or going through all of her files with the initial idea that
this is necessary to do first so that she can really concentrate on the task, and then becoming so
absorbed in all the things she finds herself ordering that she forgets the project entirely and runs out of
time for it. Her difficulty prioritizing what needs to be done reflects her characteristic trouble with
discrimination and organization—she simply has difficulty discerning what needs to be done and in
what order to do things. If it is clear what needs to be done, the indolence might show up as simply not
having the energy for it and just not doing it.
The indolence characteristically manifests outwardly in Nines as heedlessness about their
appearance and about diet and exercise (with a resulting tendency to be overweight), as well as in
other forms of self-neglect. Lacking attunement to their physical and psychic limits, some Nines
overextend themselves, mostly in the service of others’ needs, to the point of collapse. Other Nines
underextend, preferring comfort and indulgence to bestirring themselves. Or a Nine might focus on,
and indeed obsess about, one particular aspect of maintaining her health, like dietary supplements for
example, while making really poor choices about what she eats and neglecting to exercise. A symptom
might be focused upon rather than the cause: attention may be lavished on a sore ankle, for instance,
without associating that difficulty to excess weight or inappropriate shoes.
Ultimately, however, the central issue of a Nine’s indolence is not related to either outward doing or
physical neglect. This is an extremely important point to grasp, since it explains why some Nines can
be workaholics, while others seem to do little with their time. What is personally significant is what is
most neglected by a Nine, and ultimately her laziness is about paying attention to and cultivating
contact with what is most real within herself: at its heart, this laziness is fundamentally being
unconscious to and remaining unconscious to her essential nature.
As mentioned earlier, a Nine’s characteristic of forgetfulness not only manifests in losing sight of
her depths—her True Nature—but can also manifest as more superficial absentmindedness. Nines
tend to be simply forgetful. They don’t remember things, what they need to do slips their minds, and
they lose track of what they embark upon by becoming easily distracted by irrelevant things. The
forgetting is at root a Nine’s attempt to dull herself to her inner sense of being unlovable, negligible,
and valueless; so while it may feel problematic, it is ultimately a defense against what feels
intolerable to experience. This forgetfulness exacerbates the feeling of disorientation, of lostness in
the inner morass, and consequently also amplifies the sense of being stuck or paralyzed that Nines
often feel quite helpless to do anything about.
This stuckness, which can feel like having her feet embedded in wet cement or, alternatively, of
sinking into quicksand, is connected with the characteristic inertia of Nines. In physics, inertia is
defined as “the tendency of a body to resist acceleration; the tendency of a body at rest to remain at
rest or of a body in motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless disturbed by an external force.”3
Inertia is not the sole domain of Nines; it is fundamental to the perpetuation of the personality,
regardless of one’s type. It is a maintaining of our conditioned patterns of thought, feeling, and
behavior, a preservation of the grooves in the soul, imprinted through experiences in our distant past.
These patterns form the fabric of the personality, and the inertia that maintains them may feel like a
leadenness when experientially contacted, weighing us down and dulling our senses.
In Nines, this inertia typically appears as having great difficulty initiating action or, once moving,
in changing direction. Like the elephant, the animal associated with Point Nine, they are slow to get
moving and, once in motion, have a hard time stopping. In other words, once their course is set or
their routine becomes habitual, these patterns are not easily altered, and Nines obstinately hold to
them. They can be tenaciously stubborn, digging their heels in and refusing to change their minds or
their course of action. This manifests most poignantly in a determined clinging that many Nines have
to their deep sense of being inferior and deficient: often no amount of evidence to the contrary seems
capable of dislodging this embedded belief.
Her superego supports her sense of deficiency. Like much else in the inner world of a Nine, it is
often amorphous and not a clearly differentiated critical and judgmental inner voice. Initially it may
feel like more of a depressing and minimizing feeling tone, an assertive, although passive, push to
stay invisible and not take up too much space. Evidence of her superego will be seen in the shame she
feels about having needs and difficulties, as if they shouldn’t be there, and for having any anger or
aggression. Her superego demands, in a vague and not too evident way, that she is responsible for
keeping the environment happy and safe, and pushes her to take care of others. As a child, she might
feel compelled by her inner demands to befriend the new kid at school or the sick one that the other
kids ostracize. Often this is a way of minimizing the pain of another so that she will not be reminded
of her own sense of not being loved or lovable. Her superego pushes her not to upset anyone, to stay
middle-of-theroad, so that even as a rebellious teenager, she makes sure everyone feels good about
her. Transitions are difficult and threatening, so Nines tend to avoid any changes in relationships, work,
life direction, and so on. The universal characteristic in the personality of clinging to the familiar is
exemplified here. They like stability and support the status quo, resisting change and innovation.
Preserving what we called in the sixties the “Establishment”—the prevailing sociopolitical order—is
the domain of Nines. As a whole they tend to be conservative and orthodox, politically and otherwise,
entrenched in tradition, custom bound, and resistant to change. This is not to say that Nines are never
revolutionaries, but when they are, they are very doctrinaire, adhering to and supporting their new
Establishment, becoming in effect conservative radicals.
It is often difficult for Nines to discriminate what values they personally hold, following instead the
line of least resistance in conforming to those of their culture or subculture. This is why
consideration/mechanical conformity appears at Point Nine on the Enneagram of Lies, the enneagram
charting the characteristic ways each type forsakes its own truth, and which you will find in Appendix
B. A Nine’s lie is in considering others and not herself, as discussed earlier, and mechanically
conforming to the prevailing currents. Because of this tendency, Nine-ness is associated with
bureaucratic and robotic behavior and institutions in which the motions are gone through with little
personal engagement. Not to make waves, Nines fit in, conforming to the role assigned to them and
following the program seamlessly.
They become cogs in a larger wheel, oiling any squeaks by shutting them off from awareness and so
attending to their niche without complaint. Deadened to their inner world and caught up in outer
functioning without questioning it, life for a Nine can become institutionalized, mechanical, and
robotic. The stereotype of the nameless and faceless bureaucrat typifies this quality, buried in red tape
and busy with paperwork, insisting on protocol even when it makes no sense, with nothing real or
relevant being accomplished. The U.S. Postal Service and the Internal Revenue Service are frequently
thought of in this way. At first glance, this robotic tendency may seem at odds with the laziness and
disorganization mentioned earlier as typifying this type. On closer inspection, we see that a Nine may
have one area of life in which she is a stickler for detail and fulfills her function seamlessly, but the
rest of her life may be in a state of disarray, or there simply may not be a rest of her life to speak of.
Anything personal or individual may be neglected or shunned as unimportant. The versions of
communism embodied in the former Soviet Union and in China (two of the cultures associated with
Point Nine) exemplify this perfunctory way of life, in which the individual’s value is derived from
how smoothly he or she functions in the overall machine of state and in which personal opinion or
wishes are subsumed in the collective momentum.4
Mentally a Nine’s inertia manifests as stubbornly holding on to what is familiar and known, and a
tendency to be dogmatic and opinionated. Once they have landed in a conceptual groove, their minds
become closed and resistant to influence. Their mental laziness reveals itself in literalmindedness and
matter-of-factness, taking things at face value rather than being attuned to subtleties. It is also seen in
losing sight of the idea behind an action, procedure, or policy and simply automatically performing it.
Set in their ways, obstinate, and inflexible, Nines may be perceived by others as bland, unexciting,
or undynamic, but the flip side is that they also seem very solid and rocklike: dependable, implacable,
persistent, and consistent. Rarely erratic or explosive, Nines are steadier than the other ennea-types,
and give the impression that they can always be counted on—and indeed they usually can be. Since
their evenness and dependability result from absenting themselves from priority and deriving a sense
of value and worth from outer activity, these qualities are a mixed blessing at best for a Nine.
Closely connected to the inertia of Nines is their avoidance of discomfort. Comfort is very
important to them, and they invest much time and energy into making themselves both physically and
emotionally comfortable. Their defense mechanism of narcotization discussed earlier is a
psychological attempt at comfort. Behaviorally they tend to collect things that will make their lives
superficially more pleasant, pouring through catalogues filled with gadgets to make life run more
easily and smoothly. Water beds, heated swimming pools, motels, remote controls, and Jacuzzis are
examples of the kinds of things Nines relish since they reduce physical exertion and thus discomfort.
Devices and contrivances that promise comfort are part of the quest for diversion that is characteristic
of Nines, as is their typical love for amusements, pleasantries, trivia, and minutia. Ultimately all of
the gadgets and entertainments are distractions from their painful sense of deficiency and
unlovability. This is the pain that must be soothed and anesthetized through diversions and ease.
Because they rarely rock the boat and try to make others just as comfortable as they would like to
be, it’s very pleasant to be with Nines as a rule, although you might come away hungry for something
to chew on or engage with, wondering, Where’s the beef? They seem to be peaceful, untroubled, and
calm. They are compliant, amicable, cordial, and genial and, for the most part, easy to be with. While
you may not find out what is really going on inside them, you will feel cared for and soothed.
Exemplifying this, Ed McMahon, the former Tonight Show sidekick, fulfilled this function in
counterpoint to Johnny Carson’s more mercurial temperament. Walter Cronkite was for decades a
calming presence in American homes, reporting on the often turbulent events of the sixties and
seventies on the CBS televised evening news. Today we have Rosie O’Donnell, actress and talk show
host who has been dubbed the queen of nice on television in the afternoons. While these last two
exemplars may seem at odds with the picture of Nines as lazy, it is important to remember that the
indolence of a Nine is something much deeper than whether or not they outwardly get a task done.
The most uncomfortable thing to a Nine is conflict, and so they avoid it at all costs, as we see on the
Enneagram of Avoidances, found in Appendix B. Upsetting the prevailing flow of things, or lack
thereof, might be uncomfortable, and so it is decisively shunned. Rather than clash with others, they
appease and placate. They have difficulty confronting others, especially about being overlooked,
unconsidered, not listened to, and so on, and will often talk themselves out of their ruffled feelings or
simply distract themselves from feeling hurt rather than risking locking horns with another by
bringing up a difficulty. In this regard, Lady Bird Johnson comes to mind, serving as a foil for her
volatile Eight husband, LBJ. Edith Bunker, the television character in the series All in the Family,
fulfilled the same placating role with her Eight husband, the bigoted and abusive Archie.
Because keeping the peace is so important, they are good mediators and peacemakers, finding ways
to smooth things out, which can drift into smoothing things over. Beyond the motivation to maintain
harmony, they also mediate well because they can see things from many angles and are able to
understand everyone’s point of view. Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander during
World War II and two-term U.S. president, exemplifies this Nine-ish forte as we see in the following
biographical excerpt:
Eisenhower’s rapid advancement, after a long army career spent in relative obscurity, was not only
due to his knowledge of military strategy and a talent for organization but also to his ability to
persuade, to mediate, and to be agreeable. Men from a variety of backgrounds and nationalities,
impressed by his friendliness, humility, and persistent optimism, liked and trusted him.5
Nines are said to have the most objective perception of all the types, being able to set aside any
personal bias and see what is going on around them clearly. This is another dubious blessing, since it
is based on self-forgetting: What is difficult for them is knowing where they stand and what they feel,
since their tendency is to be outwardly rather than inwardly attuned. Keeping their perceptions—
especially critical ones of others—somewhat vague and fuzzy ensures that they will not be hurtful
toward others, as they assume being sharp and clear would be. Even if they are in touch with what they
think and feel, they rarely put their thoughts and feelings forward because of the risk of a challenge.
Psychodynamically this avoidance of conflict may have its roots in not wanting to upset or stand up to
an inattentive parent for fear of losing what little love and attention they seem to be receiving. The
laid-back and hang-loose Polynesian culture exemplifies this comfort-loving and conflict-avoiding
side of Ennea-type Nine.
As discussed in the Introduction, the personality structure and behavioral patterns of each enneatype
mimic a particular quality of Being, or state of consciousness, which is called its idealized
Aspect. This replication can be seen as the soul’s attempt to shape itself into an embodiment of the
lost Holy Idea. Because the soul has lost contact with her essential roots, this embodiment is of
necessity a fake. Through this simulation, the soul attempts to recapture the lost Holy Idea, which in
the case of Ennea-type Nine is the perception that the universe is inherently loving and that, as a
manifestation of it, she is inherently lovable. The quality of Being that Ennea-type Nine emulates is
called Living Daylight in the Diamond Approach. It is called this because that is what it feels like
when we contact this particular presence: warm and life-giving sunlight. We feel held in a sweet and
gentle presence that is totally loving, beneficent, and well disposed toward us. We feel that we can
relax and let go, and that we will be held and supported by a universe that is suffused with goodness,
and that is inherently kind and life affirming. It is the gentle and loving presence that pervades and
sustains all of creation, which in some traditions is referred to as Cosmic or Divine Love, and in the
theistic traditions is what is meant by the concept of God.
The simulation of Living Daylight can be glimpsed in all of the personality traits of Ennea-type
Nine. As a whole, the cognitive, emotional, and behavioral style of this type is an attempt to be a
person who is loving, holding, supportive, kind, and gentle in a very unobtrusive and inconspicuous
way. The stability and solidity, the impartiality and congeniality, the emphasis on comfort and
harmony that are characteristic of this type all are simulations on the personality level of this
dimension of reality. Since Living Daylight is the experience of Being as supportive ground, the Nine
stance in life of unobtrusively staying in the shadows is an important part of this replication.
Not only does the personality attempt to emulate the idealized Aspect but this quality of Being is
also idealized in the sense that it looks like the solution to one’s difficulties and deficiencies. Each
ennea-type, therefore, can be seen as an attempt to have as well as an attempt to become the idealized
Aspect. That particular state of consciousness will be sought, either directly or through manifestations
that seem to embody it, whether in the form of another person or an object. So Nines not only attempt
to “look” like or shape themselves into a facsimile of Living Daylight but also believe that if they
were loved and held, and if they were treated like an implicit part of the whole (whatever they take
that to be), their problems would be over. The love and holding, as well as the sense of inclusion that
they seek, might appear to reside in social or intimate relationships, in having a comfortable and easy
life, or in cozy pleasantries and diversions.
The real resolution, however, will not be found in these places. It lies in moving beyond
identification with the realm of the personality and reconnecting with the realm of Being. This will
require for a Nine cultivating the virtue associated with this point, action, which we find in Diagram 1
in the enneagram in the heart region of the figure. As mentioned in the Introduction, the virtue not
only manifests itself the freer one becomes from identification with one’s personality, but also is what
is needed for this disidentification to happen. The following is Ichazo’s definition of the virtue of
action:
It is essential movement without interference from the mind, arising naturally from the body’s need
to function in harmony with its environment. Action is the normal attitude of a being in tune with his
own energy and with the energy of the planet.6
Real action, then, which is based on authentic harmony and an internal as well as an external
responsiveness, necessitates for a Nine a radical change of focus. First and foremost, it implies
becoming present and conscious of what is going on inside herself. It means changing her focus and
orientation from her actions and interactions to the source out of which functioning arises—her
consciousness or soul. The more conscious we become of the state of our soul, which is our inner
experience, and the more we inquire into what is shaping it, the more transparent the shell of the
personality becomes. Eventually it becomes so thin that we can experience the realms of Being
beyond it. This is a waking up from the sleep of unconsciousness, and a remembering of the depths
within that the Nine has forgotten. This is true action, action that is essential in both senses of the
word.
Action, in the sense it is used here, is the opposite of the passion of indolence. So rather than
engaging in nonessential activities—doing things that are distractions or unnecessary—or not doing
anything at all, real action is the capacity to discriminate what really needs to be done and doing it.
The more freedom a Nine has from the grip of identification with the personality, the more able she
becomes to do what is really important. This might mean simply paying attention to her physical or
emotional needs or, on a deeper level, doing what it takes to make the unconscious—which includes
the essential realm—conscious.
The elephant, the animal associated with this point as mentioned earlier, is relevant in connection
with the virtue of action. In Buddhist iconography, the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra (in Sanskrit) or
Fugen (in Japanese), who represents spiritual practice as compassion, sits on an elephant throne. This
symbolizes that true kindness toward oneself is having the steadiness, solidity, patience, and inner
power—like an elephant—to work on oneself in a committed and determined way.
For a Nine, this radical shift in focus—from outside of herself to what is going on within—is a huge
step and is the key to her unfoldment. Taking this step will require questioning some of her basic
beliefs about herself, most specifically the assumption that she is not worth considering and paying
attention to. It is a knee-jerk reaction for a Nine to disregard herself and simply to go along with the
prevailing flow of other people’s desires, preferences, and actions. Throughout her work on herself,
this tendency to absent herself and overlook herself will arise in ever more subtle ways, and she will
need to repeatedly notice it and inquire into why she is doing it.
Making this internal shift—which is really taking action to reverse the inertial pull of her
personality in keeping her awareness away from her inner life—will require facing her tendency to
distract herself. There may be endless crises in her life or ceaseless demands at work that seem to
require her to stay busy juggling things so that she can’t pay attention to herself. She will have to be
willing to let all the plates that she keeps spinning fall in order to make herself primary in her own
consciousness. Blaming others and life in general for her difficulties and trying to get satisfaction on
external terms will have to be seen as the diversion that it is. She will have to face her tendency to
seek gratification and answers outside of herself, a tendency encapsulated by the “seeker” on the
Enneagram of Traps, which we find in Appendix B. The traps are the characteristic ways each type
distracts their attention from the real issue. She will have to pay attention to what is going on inside
rather than staying focused on what is happening outside, no matter how enticing keeping all those
balls in the air seems to be.
Her superego vigilantly wants to keep this shift in attention from happening, however, so she must
defend against her inner attacks on herself just to have the space to pay attention to herself. Her
superego wants to protect her at all costs from coming into conflict with others, which looks like the
inevitable result if she pays attention to her own desires, feelings, and inner promptings. It berates her
and tells her to be good and not make waves by going along with the prevailing external flow, cautions
her against making too big a deal about herself, and admonishes her that taking up too much space
might be dangerous. To defend against these attacks, her desire to know who she is beyond her
indolent shell will have to become stronger than her desire for comfort. This is a reciprocal process, as
the more she gets in touch with her essential self, the more her inner strength will rally to defend her
soul. She will discover that true ease and comfort reside in Being and not in indolently forgetting
herself.
Really grappling with her habitual tendency to ignore and neglect herself and defending against her
superego will rapidly confront a Nine with her profound sense of worthlessness, valuelessness, and
unlovability. Deeper still, she will encounter the felt sense that she is fundamentally lacking and
inadequate, the deficiency state at the core of her personality. She will need to unearth, examine, and
inquire into why she believes this about herself and how this central belief became the foundation of
her sense of self. As she allows and feels into this extremely painful sense of inadequacy and of
inferiority, memories both conceptual and preconceptual that gave rise to and supported this sense of
herself will surface and need to be digested. The resulting object relations—her inner sense of self and
other—will need to be seen in operation externally, and she will need to bring to consciousness these
internal constructs.
Simultaneously taking real action will mean connecting with and fully inhabiting her body. Rather
than skipping over and minimizing her inner sensations, she will need to become attuned to them and
pay attention to them. Making deep experiential contact with her body will bring up all of the years of
neglect, and probably much grief will be experienced. The more that she fully abides in her body and
focuses her attention within it, the more she is at the same time contacting as well as supporting a
sense of her own inherent value and self-worth. Also, the more she pays attention to her body, the
more she will begin noticing and listening to her emotions, and the sharper and clearer her mind will
become. She will increasingly feel more alive and more a part of life. Eventually, as she keeps
focusing her awareness within, what she senses will be the entirety of her soul.
The more present she becomes, the more she will become aware of her absence of contact with her
essential nature, which may feel like a huge hole in her soul. As she allows herself to feel into this
hole and to be curious about it, rather than escaping from it into sleepiness or distractions, she will
find that what she had experienced as a deficient emptiness changes. As she progressively opens to it
and explores how it really feels, the negativity and feelings of lack will transform. The emptiness
becomes a spaciousness, and over time all of the qualities of Being will gradually arise in her
consciousness as she makes this inner descent over and over again. For a long time, it will seem to her
that Being comes and goes, until a sort of critical mass is reached in her soul, and her identity shifts
from her personality to Being. Then Being will feel like the ground of her experience, and she will see
that it was she who came and went, losing and gaining consciousness of what was there all the time.
Eventually, the shell of her personality will become more and more transparent to Being, and as this
happens, she will find herself experiencing, embodying, and manifesting the quality of Being she has
tried to emulate, Living Daylight. Her inner experience will gradually change from feeling deficient,
unloved, unimportant, and overlooked to feeling sustained, taken care of, and inseparable from a
beneficent universe filled with love and blessings. When this happens, she will at long last fully know
herself to be truly a manifestation and embodiment of the love of the Divine.






* *





Those of this ennea-type tend to be very private people who value their solitude and often resent
intrusions. Fives tend to feel unseen and isolated from others, very much alone and separate, which
does not seem to bother them much. Afraid of engulfment, they often seem to hide from life and seal
themselves off, maintaining their own private inner world. While most of the time seeming to observe
rather than actively participate in what is going on around them, they can at times be quite loquacious,
although they nonetheless convey the sense that they are living in their own little world.
Valuing self-sufficiency and their own autonomy, they don’t want to feel obligated to others to
fulfill expectations and demands, and would rather keep to themselves. They therefore tend to be
retentive and stingy with themselves and their resources, thus the name of this type, Ego-Stinginess.
Driven by an inner sense of scarcity and emptiness, they behave as though afraid that the little they
have might be taken from them and so needs to be safeguarded. Afraid that nothing will be
forthcoming from the outside, they act as though they don’t want anything and furthermore that they
don’t care, even convincing themselves that this is how they really feel, and so they limit expression
of their wishes and their desires.
Many Fives seem emotionless, dry, and lacking in vitality. Although they may experience intense
emotions and have very active and penetrating minds, they show very little of this inner world to
others. Energetically they may seem wispy and sometimes even fragile, as if not fully inhabiting their
bodies. It is as though they are a little removed, withholding themselves from fully entering into
things. They are deeply sensitive, sometimes seeming to be all nerve endings, easily shaken and
startled, with thin and delicate skins. They use their minds to scout, relying on their knowledge of the
territory in front of them to make entering into it safe. Many Fives, however, live entirely in their
minds, substituting mental formulations for actual experience.
Behind these personality traits lies the loss of the Holy Idea associated with Point Five. To
understand it, we need to recap our understanding of that of Point Eight. In the previous chapter we
discussed how Holy Truth, the Holy Idea of Point Eight, is the perception that the whole cosmos is one
indivisible thing and that all of its dimensions are coemergent and inseparable from each other. This
means that the entire universe, from physical manifestation to the Absolute, is a oneness, and so
matter and Spirit are part and parcel of each other. From this angle, we saw that all dualities are
illusory: the Divine and the mundane, good and evil, ego and Essence, and ourselves and God. They
are simply different parts of the one fabric of reality. The Holy Idea of Point Five, which has two
names, Holy Omniscience and Holy Transparency, shifts the focus from viewing this whole as a
totality to viewing it from within its various manifestations. In other words, rather than viewing
reality as one thing, from this vantage point the emphasis is on the interconnectedness of all of the
parts of the cosmos and on some of the implications of this interpenetration. In a sense, we can think
of Holy Truth as focusing on the wholeness of reality, and of Holy Omniscience and Holy
Transparency as focusing on its constituent parts.
Almaas uses the terms unity and oneness to differentiate these two perceptions. Unity refers to
perceiving the wholeness of reality, and is the perspective of Holy Truth. Oneness refers to perceiving
that all of the separate manifestations in reality make up one thing, and is the perspective of Holy
Omniscience and Holy Transparency. He uses the analogy of the body to make this clearer: looking at
the body from the outside and seeing it as one thing would be analogous to Holy Truth, while looking
at it from the inside and seeing all of the separate cells, organs, and systems that make it up would be
analogous to Holy Omniscience and Holy Transparency. Or, returning to our analogy, we could say
that Holy Truth is equivalent to perceiving an ocean as a whole body of water, while Holy
Omniscience is equivalent to perceiving the various waves and currents that taken together comprise
it.
Exploring the Holy Idea of Point Five in more detail, we will concentrate first on Holy
Transparency since it is a little easier to grasp than Holy Omniscience. Holy Transparency refers to
the human experience of being one individual part of the whole of reality. One of the central beliefs of
the personality, no matter what our ennea-type happens to be, is that we are each ultimately separate
from every other person. When we see reality objectively from the angle of Holy Transparency, we
see that this is an illusion and not ultimate truth. Although our bodies are physically separate, this
separateness is not fundamental to our nature. And while each of us is a distinct individual with a
unique appearance, temperament, and history, and possessing different qualities than anyone else,
each of us is still part of the larger body of humanity and in turn of the cosmos. We are all like the
various cells in the body, each having a particular makeup and function and yet indisputably
interconnected with one another and part of the same organism.
Beyond our interconnection as members of humanity, as individual souls we are each an expression
and manifestation of Being, linked by our very nature with the rest of the universe. Again, just like the
individual cells that make up our bodies, the dividing walls between each of us are porous and
transparent and not inherently defining or confining. From the enlightened perspective of Holy
Transparency, we know ourselves as individual manifestations or differentiations of the oneness of
reality, composing it and inseparable from it. We perceive ourselves, then, to be parts of a greater
Whole, and we also see here that disconnection from the rest of humanity and the rest of the cosmos is
impossible.
Turning to Holy Omniscience, we might begin to penetrate its meaning by asking ourselves why the
word omniscience is used in connection with this perception of oneness, since omniscience means the
state of being all-knowing or of having complete understanding. There are a number of ways to
understand the use of this term. Perhaps the simplest has to do with what spiritual development is all
about: it is the process of a human being becoming progressively more conscious of and in touch with
her inner nature. She literally knows more and more about who and what she is, and when this
knowledge is total, she has full realization of herself as an individual expression of Being. This is
what is referred to in the various traditions as total enlightenment—complete understanding of oneself
and of one’s nature. Because each of us is an inseparable manifestation of the Whole, an individual
soul who partakes of the nature of all souls and of all of the cosmos, knowing oneself fully implies
knowing the Whole fully as well. So Holy Omniscience is the perspective of the enlightened human
soul: she fully knows herself and, through this knowing, fully knows the Whole of which she is a part.
Perhaps the deepest and most difficult understanding of Holy Omniscience to grasp is that each of
us is a differentiation of the Universal Mind. We discussed in an earlier chapter how the universe is an
alive intelligence. Looking at reality in this way, each of us is a thought expressed by that Intelligence.
Or, putting it a little differently, each entity in the universe is like a separate thought in God’s Mind.
Each of us is an expression of God or the Absolute, then, the inner nature of the universe manifesting
on its outer surface.
This might raise the question of why the Absolute expresses each of these “thoughts” that we are,
which is the same question as why manifestation occurs in the first place and what is the point of
human life. Many spiritual traditions say that the function of our existence is so that the Absolute can
know Itself, and this is perhaps the most plausible answer to that question. As each individual soul,
each expression of the Absolute, becomes conscious and aware of her True Nature, the Absolute
knows Itself. So each of us is not only a differentiation of the Absolute but also a way in which It
knows Itself.
Holy Omniscience, then, tells us something about the function of human existence: so that God can
know Himself; about the place of humanity in the cosmos: as transparent windows of the Absolute;
and about the nature of the Path: progressive understanding of one’s nature. Holy Transparency tells
us that as we experience ourselves as transparent windows of Being, we know ourselves to be
inseparable from the rest of creation.
Simultaneous with the loss of contact with her depths, a Five also loses these perspectives on
reality. So not only does she lose her sense of connection with Being but she also loses a sense of
interconnectedness with others and with the rest of reality. As she inevitably identifies with her body
in infancy, its boundaries become determinate to her, bounding and disconnecting her. She develops
the conviction that she is separate from - everyone and everything else, although obviously at this
early age this conviction is only a dimly felt sense that only later becomes conceptual. Separateness as
fundamental replaces interconnectedness, and as a result, she grows up without a sense of true place or
function in human society and, beyond that, in the universe.
This sense of being fundamentally separate is common to all ego structures, no matter which type.
It is one of the deepest beliefs of the personality and hence to the majority of humanity, and for most
of us it feels like an indisputable sense of how things actually are. It is only when we have experiences
that move us past the boundaries of our egoic consciousness that we experience ourselves as one with
and part of all of existence.
Sealed off from others, contained within the limits of her body, the Five experiences a profound
sense of isolation. She grows up feeling estranged from others, living in her own little bubble, and
rarely feeling fully part of her family or community. Filtered through the loss of the sense of
connectedness signified by Holy Omniscience and Holy Transparency, her experience of her primary
relationship to another—her mother—is of not being fully bonded with her. A Five’s memory of their
early relationship is often tinged with the sense of not being fully related to, deeply loved, wanted, or
fully nourished, a sense of having futilely sucked at a dry tit. A sense of deprivation, of contact or
sustenance having been withheld, is left indelibly in her soul. Seemingly paradoxically, she also often
has the sense of her mother being invasive, intrusive, manipulative, engulfing, and devouring, not
respecting her boundaries or her space. While this may sound like the opposite of a withholding
mother, the common thread is the experience of mother not relating to, connecting with, and being
attuned to her reality. Rather, mother seems wrapped up in herself and so not really perceiving the
Five or meeting her needs.
She ends up feeling unseen, unappreciated, and not understood, and this becomes part of her
ongoing sense of self. So rather than experiencing herself as someone whose needs are apparent and
whose inner process is penetrable by another’s understanding as in Holy Transparency, she feels
invisible. Not only do her needs and desires feel to her unseen by others but her inner world also feels
to her ungraspable by them. Her inner workings do not seem to her like something others would
understand, empathize with, and have compassion for. She experiences herself as different, not like
other people, lacking shared human commonalities. The gulf between herself and others feels
unbridgeable, and her boundaries feel impenetrable.
This sense of invisibility and isolation is both her suffering and her attempt to defend against it. In
response to her mother’s distance from her and mother’s unattuned intrusions, she withdraws from her
mother in order not to experience the devastating pain of feeling neglected. It is also an attempt to
preserve herself, to seal off and hold on to a sense of self in the face of experiencing herself as unseen.
This fear of loss of self arises because her not fully differentiated consciousness cannot distinguish
clearly between mother and herself, and so if mother doesn’t see her, she begins to lose a sense of her
own substantiality. The solution her soul arrives at, then, is to separate and isolate herself to survive.
Her soul is frozen in the infant state beyond tears and rage when needs go unmet and quiet
resignation and apathy take over. In her movement away, she mimics her experience of her mother’s
remoteness from her, and by extension the remoteness of Being, and this withdrawal becomes her
dominant strategy in life. Mother becomes all others and life itself, and she pulls back physically,
emotionally, and energetically from all of the forms mother takes in her psyche.
In a word, she hides from life, and so on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11, we find
self-hiding at Point Five, indicating that she conceals herself from others and ultimately hides from
herself as well. She becomes self-enclosed and prefers to remain on the periphery of things, whether
they be social gatherings, intimate relationships, or any other kind of engagement with others. She
withdraws and tends to be difficult to reach on all levels, from simply being elusive regarding her
whereabouts or not answering her phone for instance, to evasiveness about what is going on with her
internally. She wants control over the amount and quality of interaction she has, and guards her
privacy carefully. We see this exemplified in the little we know about the personal lives of Fives who
become famous, as, for example, Bob Dylan and Georgia O’Keeffe. Dylan’s sense of self-enclosure is
evident as he refrains from making eye contact with his audience during concerts, and O’Keeffe’s in
the isolated life she led in the New Mexican desert.
Part of a Five’s hiding is her dissembling—primarily concealing her inner thoughts, feelings, and
wishes under a cloak of indifference. Because of this, dissimulation—trying to appear not as one is—
is at Point Five on the Enneagram of Lies, as we see on Diagram 12. For instance, if a Five feels any
danger of her response to a question being conflictual, it will be difficult to get a straight answer out
of her. Rather than expressing herself and risking a challenge for which she feels unprepared or taking
the chance of ruffling someone else’s feathers, she hides what is going on with her. In arguments, she
will readily say that she agrees with the other person, and later it becomes clear that she still holds an
entirely divergent opinion. She accommodates, appearing to go along with what the other wishes,
while quietly going about exactly what she secretly wanted to do in the first place. At other times, she
may accommodate to the extent that she loses track of her own direction. While she secretly longs to
be seen, appreciated, cared about, and loved, she is afraid to take the initiative and instead feigns
indifference and waits passively to be noticed.
A Five’s dissembling keeps her from making waves and helps her avoid confrontations, but it also
reinforces her disconnection from others. Just as she loses a sense of connection to others, she also
loses a sense of connection with life itself both externally and internally. She feels separate from the
rest of reality, not part of its dynamism. Her own aliveness and vitality seem ephemeral and tenuous,
and her energy, stamina, and vigor feel limited, and she may even experience herself as unreal,
ghostlike. She feels small, contracted, and shrunken, with her presence delicate, wispy, and
insubstantial, and her expressions of exuberance and animation appear momentary and fleeting.
In Freudian terms, her drive energy is diminished. Her investment of love and value in others and
objects is blocked and held back, as is her libido, her drive toward them. Rather than going after what
she wants, she talks herself out of what she wants and inwardly moves away from the wanting. With
the imprint in her soul of the futility of mother truly being attuned and meeting her needs, she is
resigned at the outset, convinced that she cannot get what she wants, that it will not be forthcoming,
and that whatever she is given will not be what she wanted anyway. So to circumvent the pain of not
getting what she desires and reactivating her early wounding, she may experience deep longing inside
but blocks its expression, looking apathetic to others; or at the extreme she stops desiring altogether.
She restricts her wishes and her wants, and in appearance if not in fact ceases to care about anything.
As Horney elaborates on the neurotic she refers to as the detached type:
The resigned person believes, consciously or unconsciously, that it is better not to wish or to expect
anything. Sometimes this goes with a conscious pessimistic outlook on life, a sense of its being futile
anyhow and of nothing being sufficiently desirable to make an effort for it. More often many things
appear desirable in a vague, idle way but fail to arouse a concrete, alive wish. If a wish or interest has
enough zest to penetrate through the “don’t care” attitude, it fades out soon after and the smooth
surface of “nothing matters” or “nothing should matter” is reestablished. Such “wishlessness” may
concern both professional and personal life—the wish for a different job or an advancement as well as
for a marriage, a house, a car, or other possessions. The fulfillment of these wishes may loom
primarily as a burden, and in fact would sabotage the one wish he does have—that of not being
bothered.1
Some Fives experience deep longing and caring, but, convinced that what they want will not be
forthcoming, they dissemble, appearing not to care. Others, more thoroughly convinced of the futility
of engagement, lose interest in anything altogether. In either case, with little inner drive - toward
things, a Five has difficulty initiating action, and instead she waits passively on the sidelines for
attention to come her way, for her needs to be met, and for contact with others. She is held back,
restrained by her reluctance to move toward anything out of fear of rebuff or loss, and so her actions
are stilted and awkward, infused with self-consciousness. She often feels paralyzed, unable to move in
one direction or another, and when this happens it is because she is afraid. In the same vein, she has
difficulty communicating her needs, in the extreme becoming catatonic, unable to speak.
Rather than engaging life, then, and grappling with the challenges it brings, the Five retreats from
it. Inwardly as well, as Horney says, such a person withdraws and looks on:
The direct expression of the neurotic having removed himself from the inner battlefield is his being
an onlooker at himself and his life. I have described this attitude as one of the general measures to
relieve inner tension. Since detachment is a ubiquitous and prominent attitude of his, he is also an
onlooker at others. He lives as if he were sitting in the orchestra and observing a drama acted on the
stage, and a drama which is most of the time not too exciting at that. Though he is not necessarily a
good observer, he may be very astute. Even in the very first consultation he may, with the help of some
pertinent questions, develop a picture of himself replete with a wealth of candid observation. But he
will usually add that all his knowledge has not changed anything. Of course it has not—for none of his
findings has been an experience for him. Being an onlooker at himself means just that: not actively
participating in living and unconsciously refusing to do so.2
The Five becomes, then, an observer of life rather than an active participator, and this is her trap, as
we see on Diagram 9. Her lack of participation is based on her fear of too much engagement and
involvement. As we are seeing, much of her inner dynamic is fear based; Ennea-type Five is a fear
type, one of the two points neighboring Point Six where the primary focus is on existential fear itself.
Like a Six, rather than identifying with the fittest in what feels like the struggle for survival, she
experiences herself as one of the weaklings, and so is constantly afraid. Often ectomorphic—thin and
wiry—of body type, many Fives experience themselves as puny compared with others, and in a
physical fight, they feel sure they would lose. Many, but not all Fives, experience themselves as
nebbishy or like nerds, the guy who gets sand kicked in his face at the beach, or to use a more current
term, like a geek. Many Fives feel unable to defend themselves physically, and this forms the basis of
their fear of asserting themselves. Other Fives may feel physically substantial and strong, but also
vulnerable and unable to defend themselves mentally or emotionally.
As we are seeing, a Five’s attempt to preserve her inner space and the integrity of her soul through
withdrawing from life ends up ironically also isolating her from herself. She withdraws from her
direct experience, so rather than experiencing the vibrancy of her bodily sensations and her emotions,
she observes them from a distance just as she does external things. As a result, she often feels out of
touch, spaced out, and blocked, living a lot in her mind and in fantasy.
The legs are the body part associated with Ennea-type Five. Our legs are what move us toward and
away from things, and a Five’s capacity to run away and hide feels crucial to her safety. As Horney
describes, we can readily see how fear based and survival oriented the Five’s distancing is:
As long as the detached person can keep at a distance he feels comparatively safe; if for any reason
the magic circle is penetrated, his security is threatened. This consideration brings us closer to an
understanding of why the detached person becomes panicky if he can no longer safeguard his
emotional distance from others—and we should add that the reason his panic is so great is that he has
no technique for dealing with life. He can only keep aloof and avoid life, as it were. Here again it is
the negative quality of detachment that gives the picture a special color, different from that of other
neurotic trends. To be more specific, in a difficult situation the detached person can neither appease
nor fight, neither co-operate nor dictate terms, neither love nor be ruthless. He is as defenseless as an
animal that has only one means of coping with danger—that is, to escape and hide.3
One of the key ways the Five distances internally is through the defense mechanism of isolation,
which means that she separates her emotional feelings from her memories and thoughts. She can then
remember painful and even traumatic situations without actually experiencing them as such, and can
think about a current situation without any emotion connected with it. So, for example, she might
think about a friend or partner who she is having a fight with, and feel no emotion toward that person
at all. She might conclude that she doesn’t care about him and never did, thus protecting herself from
any emotional upset about the current difficulty. Or she might tell you about a severe childhood
trauma with little or no affect connected with it, like a reporter recounting something that she
witnessed, in the spirit of objectivity from her point of view.
Another form the defense of isolation takes that is more closely related to her self-enclosure is
separating related thoughts from each other—compartmentalizing them—as though there were no
causal relationship between them. Using our example above, she might have the thought that her
friend or partner said something that hurt her feelings and another thought that she isn’t sure she ever
cared about that person anyway, without experiencing a connection or causal relationship between
these two thoughts. So her thoughts and feelings become encapsulated, self-enclosed and out of
relationship with each other, and in this way form an internal microcosm of her external relationship
to others and the world.
She maintains a sense of connection with herself and the rest of life through attentively and often
nervously looking on. Like a fox protecting the lair of her inner world, she peers out, sniffing the wind
for danger and observing from afar. Much of her energy is centered in her eyes, and a Five’s eyes are
often like bright burning coals as she keenly watches what is going on, attempting to figure it out and
thus protect herself. Developing a clear conceptual picture of what is occurring both within and
without are her focus. Knowing what is going on and knowledge itself appear to her as the keys to her
safety as well as what will bring her recognition. Rather than experiential and embodied
understanding, she substitutes conceptual knowledge and information. In this we see her personality’s
facsimile of the lost Holy Omniscience—she is attempting to be all-knowing—as well as her idealized
Aspect, which we will turn to now.
What a Five feels she lacks and believes she needs is more knowledge and understanding. This
makes sense, since if you take the stance of an onlooker at life, knowing what is going on becomes
central to your very sense of survival. Knowledge to her means safety, and so to feel more secure she
wants foreknowledge of what she will encounter and what will ensue, as well as what is expected of
her. A Five often feels that she did not understand what was going on around her in her early and later
childhood, the sense of somehow being left out of the loop of life, and so she strives to make sense out
of what she sees. She scouts the environment, trying to understand what is going on.
Somewhere deep in a Five’s soul, knowledge feels not only her key to survival but also what can
reconnect her with the lost realm of Being. She believes that if she had known what her mother
wanted, she would have been seen, and she and her mother would have connected. She came to the
conclusion someplace in her soul that it was this lack of knowledge that caused the disconnection.
Since mother and Being are synonymous in infancy, she believes that if she had known enough, she
would not have lost touch with Being, and that knowledge is the key to reconnecting. She idealizes the
quality of Being that has to do with direct knowledge, which is called Diamond Consciousness or
Diamond Guidance in the language of the Diamond Approach. As Almaas says:
This aspect of Essence is the source of true insight, intuition, knowledge and understanding. It
functions through a capacity of simultaneous analysis and synthesis. . . . Unlike all other aspects of
Being, it has the capacity to use knowledge from memory and synthesize it with immediate knowledge
in the moment, thus utilizing both mind and Being....
The Diamond Consciousness is the prototype, on the level of Being, of the faculty of understanding.
The ordinary capacity for understanding is only a reflection of this capacity. When an individual
manifests an unusual or brilliant capacity for analysis and synthesis in his or her understanding, it is
usually an indication of some degree of realization of the Diamond Consciousness. We can see the
functioning of this capacity in the work of the great original synthesizers of mankind, such as
Gautama Buddha or Sigmund Freud.4
The Buddha and Freud, by the way, may very well have been Fives, as is Almaas himself. All three
abandoned prior conceptual formulations and developed bodies of knowledge that grew out of their
direct experience and observations, and so embodied the idealized Aspect. The Buddha is known as
the Omniscient One, and in this we see the interpenetration of the Holy Idea and the idealized Aspect.
This Aspect seems to be that symbolized by the Wise Old Man archetype in Jungian psychology and
by the angel Gabriel, considered the Messenger of God in Judaism and the Angel of Revelation in
Islam.
In contrast to these exemplars, most Fives only imitate Diamond Guidance through disembodied
and thus dry mental knowledge. To the extent that a Five is not fully experiencing herself, this
facsimile is the only possibility. Of this intellectual orientation, Naranjo says:
Through a predominantly cognitive orientation the individual may seek substitute satisfaction—as
in the replacement of living through reading. Yet the symbolic replacement of life is not the only form
of expression of intense thinking activity: another aspect is the preparation for life—a preparation
that is intense to the extent that the individual never feels ready enough. In the elaboration of
perceptions as preparation for (inhibited) action, the activity of abstraction is particularly striking;
type V individuals lean - towards the activity of classification and organization, and not only display a
strong attraction towards the process of ordering experience, but tend to dwell in abstractions while
at the same time avoiding concreteness. This avoidance of concreteness, in turn, is linked to the type’s
hiddenness: only the results of one’s perceptions are offered to the world, not its raw material.5
Her inner world feels empty, devoid of the juice of life. This is the particular deficiency state at the
core of her personality, her particular hell realm, which she will do everything she can to avoid
experiencing. It has a dry, stark, depleted, sterile, and empty feel to it, filling her soul with a sense of
deprivation and inner poverty. Like a vast inner desert with no oasis in sight, she feels barren, thirsty,
and desiccated. In contrast to wetter—more emotional—types, she is in no danger of drowning in grief
but rather is in danger of evaporating from lack of anything life-giving. She feels very much alone and
unreachable here, isolated and separate from the rest of the world, and profoundly ashamed of her
inner sense of scarcity. Exposure of it, both to her own awareness and to others, feels utterly
humiliating since she believes she should have known what to do about it. This is the emptiness
referred to at Point Five on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10.
I mentioned earlier that her movement away, her withdrawal from life, was both her defense and her
suffering, and we have seen how she uses it defensively to protect herself. Her self-enclosure also
creates this desolate inner landscape and perpetuates her bone-dry sense of deficiency, forming the
basis and core of her suffering. This is the inevitable consequence of her fundamental delusion—her
fixation—that she is ultimately separate from every other entity, the cognitive error about reality
resulting from the loss of the Holy Idea. If you create an artificial boundary in your consciousness
between yourself and everything else, your soul is encapsulated and sealed off from the source of life
—Being—and inner emptiness must consequently result. This is termed stinginess by Ichazo, as we
see on the Enneagram of Fixations in Diagram 2 probably for the reasons that follow.
With this arid emptiness at her core, she feels that she has no inner reservoir on any level, and so
must hold on to the little that she has. She is frugal to the point of stinginess with her energy, her
emotions, her attention, and her communication, hence—as mentioned earlier—the name of this type,
Ego-Stinginess. She doles out little bits of herself when she sees fit, and lives unconsciously in the
fear that the rest will be taken from her. This fear of losing the little that she has is the heart of a
Five’s inner fright and dread and is the reason she is more often than not ungiving and ungenerous.
Rather than being consciously withholding, she may project her own reticence to desire things and
may believe that others, like her, do not want anything.
She withholds from herself as well as others, often having few material possessions so that she has
little to become attached to and thus little that she would miss if it were lost or stolen. Her needs are
few, even physical ones, and she tends to parcel out to herself limited quantities of food and drink,
preferring an empty belly to a full one. One Five I know refers to this tendency of his as “living lightly
on the earth,” an expression borrowed from the conservation/ecology movement. Rather than depend
on anyone else, Fives prefer to supply and use their own resources. As Horney says in this regard:
He is particularly anxious not to get attached to anything to the extent of really needing it. Nothing
should be so important for him that he could not do without it. It is all right to like a woman, a place
in the country, or certain drinks, but one should not become dependent upon them. As soon as he
becomes aware that a place, a person, or a group of people means so much to him that its loss would
be painful he tends to extract his feelings. No other person should ever have the feeling of being
necessary to him or take the relationship for granted. If he suspects the existence of either attitude he
tends to withdraw.6
Not all Fives are materially stingy with themselves, but many are. If a Five withholds from herself
in this way, it is so that she does not have to experience attachment to anything and fear its loss. Most
are frugal and tend to be stingy with others, keeping close track of what they give and what they are
owed. It rarely occurs to many Fives to be extravagant with gifts, since that frequently seems
frivolous, wasteful, and definitely imprudent to them.
This hoarding and withholding lead to the passion of this type, avarice, which we see at Point Five
on the Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. Avarice means greediness, a powerful desire to acquire.
The drive, then, for a Five is to collect, accumulate, and save resources, based on her internal sense of
deficient emptiness. It is important to understand that this is a drive to have rather than to consume.
As Naranjo says, “This is a fearful grasping, implying a fantasy that letting go would result in
catastrophic depletion. Behind the hoarding impulse there is, we may say, an experience of impending
impoverishment.”7 This is the anal retentive stance, the soul holding on to things rather than letting
them pass through.8 The internal logic is that if she squirrels enough away, she will not feel empty
anymore, but as with all attempts to fill holes in our souls that result from disconnection with Being,
no amount of reserves ever obviates her inner experience of scarcity.
The squirrel, by the way, is one of the animals associated with Ennea-type Five. The other is the
mongoose, a small creature who relies on its agility and speed, darting after its prey.
Some Fives are materially avaricious, miserly with their money, spending little in order to amass
savings so that they can pore over their stock portfolios and retirement funds in an effort to gain some
inner sense of security. Not all Fives express their avarice in this way. Whether materially avaricious
or not, most Fives are avaricious about knowledge, believing as they do that it is what will save them
and serves to a great extent as a substitute for a more active participation in life, as we have seen. For
a Five, avarice is really an attachment to the idea of what she has, so ultimately it is knowledge—
knowing what she has—rather than any possession that she is really hoarding.
For those who are fearful of having anything lest it be taken from them, which would remind them
of their fundamental and primal pain of the loss of Being, their avarice manifests more energetically:
protecting and hanging on to what little vitality and emotionality they have. Quoting Naranjo again,
“Because of an excessive resignation in regard to love and people, precisely, there is a compensatory
clutching at oneself—which may or may not manifest in a grasping onto possessions, but involves a
much more generalized hold over one’s inner life as well as an economy of effort and resources.”9
Fives are characteristically afraid of being swallowed up by another and of the demands and
expectations others might place upon them, and so withhold from wholehearted engagement in
personal relationships. For many Fives, being alone seems preferable to the risk of losing their sense
of who they are by being engulfed by a partner and to risking things being asked of them that they feel
unable or reluctant to give. What little of themselves they feel they have, they want to hold on to. For
this reason, many Fives have difficulty entering into intimate relationships, while others do so readily
but often with partners who give them ample independence and autonomy. In the latter case, they
choose partners who make few demands upon them either materially or emotionally in terms of
contact. In such cases, having someone who will take care of the mundane details of life like buying
the groceries and taking out the garbage is often worth the danger of being overwhelmed by her
partner.
At the beginning of inner work, a Five’s avarice is usually fairly unconscious to her. As we have
seen, this is true of the passions of most of the ennea-types. To feel consciously her greed,
possessiveness, and boundarysetting distancing flies in the face of her superego, the inner critic.
Feeling her avarice would lead to feeling her inner arid and desiccated emptiness, and her superego
attempts to make sure this does not happen. Her superego is mocking and disdainful, arrogant and
superior, berating her for her inner sense of impoverishment, her lack of emotion, and her fear of life.
She is at the mercy of her superego rather than identified with it as an Ennea-type One is, and its
attacks create and exacerbate her feeling just plain shitty inside.
Her response to the demands of her superego as well as to any external demands is often simply to
stonewall. Often it is even more important to her not to comply and in that way to preserve a sense of
independence than to do things that she knows are in her best interest. Naranjo says that Fives actually
want to subvert perceived demands, whether internal or external, and this may indeed be the case.
Whenever anything is perceived by a Five to be something that she is expected or that she ought to do,
she tends to go into quiet resistance. She will, for example, refuse to give gifts just because they are
expected, or not do the dishes simply because her husband wants her to, or she might procrastinate
about doing her taxes, turning them in only after all the allowable extensions have been filed. She may
say that she has every intention of doing things that are expected of her, but somehow they just don’t
get done.
A Five’s hostility, then, is expressed indirectly in passively aggressive behavior. With her docile
and accommodating self-presentation, she will agree to do things and make commitments only to
placate the other, with no intention of actually following through. She tends to procrastinate, postpone,
forget, and find all sorts of reasons why she must fulfill her obligations later. She is rarely in touch
with the hostility she is expressing in this backhanded way, and is usually quite surprised at the
frustration and rage such behavior evokes in others, who are simply feeling the anger that she is not
expressing directly and perhaps not even conscious of. She does not feel she can say no directly
because she does not feel she has the inner strength to stand behind it. Like a hollow twig, she is afraid
she would snap. So she demurs, acting out her aggression silently and not risking a confrontation with
anyone. Rarely asserting herself, she appears to go along with another’s flow, while quietly in the
background going her own way, as we saw earlier.
Her hostility is also expressed in her movement away from life. It is a very loud unspoken “No!”—a
silent rejection. Her aloofness is often laden with arrogance, superiority, and disdain—she claims that
she does not want to be involved anyway. The world is so imperfect, why should she participate?
People are such animals, why would she want to get involved with them? Strong emotions are so
messy, why should she want to sully herself by feeling, much less expressing, them?
Another reason that experiencing her avarice directly is so difficult for her is that it is an expression
of profound attachment. The avarice, as we have seen, is a drive to acquire, hold on to, and hoard, and
expresses an extreme concern with what she has. It runs completely counter to her attempt at
appearing and being detached. She idealizes her independence, autonomy, and detachment since
caring about others and about things means that if she loses them, she will feel loss and the dreaded
emptiness. She does not want to be too attached to anything, as we have seen, and this is behind her
dampening of any drive outward, toward anything. So her libidinal energy dries up, reinforcing the
inner aridity. She becomes cut off from her vibrancy, her desires, her feelings. She becomes cool and
detached, remote and indifferent, unfeeling and uncaring. Others appear like slaves to their desires,
and she has little empathy or sympathy for them, only a great sense of relief that she is not caught in
the same trap. She does not want to be hemmed in, constrained, or imprisoned by anything, and so
does not want to be pinned down or committed to anything she can’t get out of. While she may on
occasion feel somewhat robotlike and inhuman, it seems a small price to pay for the safety she has
gained by not getting too attached.
The detachment of a Five is not freedom at all, as she would like to believe. It is compulsive—she
has little choice not to respond by moving away. And it is based on fear of involvement. Moving away
from something you are afraid of is not freedom at all; it is a reaction that keeps you very much in
relationship with what you are frightened of.
Although Ichazo uses the word detachment to describe the virtue of Point Five, what he describes
might best be conveyed by the word nonattachment. We find this on the Enneagram of Virtues in
Diagram 1. Of the virtue he says, “It is the precise understanding of the body’s needs; a detached
being takes in exactly what he needs and lets everything else go. Detachment is the position which
allows the energy of life to flow easily through the body.” While Ichazo speaks of detachment relative
to the body, we can just as easily and perhaps more revealingly substitute the word soul. What is
implied, then, is a sense of permeability that allows the fullness of Essence to fill the Five’s soul and
reconnect her with her True Nature. When this happens, there is no need for avarice since she knows
herself to be an unseverable part of the Whole, partaking of its plenitude and its riches.
Since the virtue of each type is a quality that both develops in the course of one’s work on oneself
and is necessary for traversing one’s inner terrain, a Five’s path necessitates and fosters an inner
attitude of nonattachment. This means letting go of the need to hold on to anything. First and foremost
for a Five, this means letting go of her distance from herself. She will have to be willing to connect
with herself in an experiential way, with her mind following her direct experience rather than taking
the lead. In order to do this, she needs to confront her attachment to knowing before she can actually
contact her direct bodily and emotional experience. As we have seen, Fives scout the territory ahead
and try to think their way across it rather than actually traveling through it. In terms of their inner
world, this translates as mentally trying to figure out what they are experiencing and where it might
take them before actually experientially contacting it.
Although some Fives attempt to do it, inner transformation that is fully embodied and lived cannot
be achieved through the mind alone. No amount of information about the various states of
consciousness possible for the human soul can substitute for directly experiencing and integrating
them. Nor can knowledge—no matter how accurate—about the contents of a Five’s consciousness or
even consciousness in general, the nature of her ego structure, or of all of the dimensions of Being
ever substitute for touching them with her soul. Such information may be very useful and helpful as a
way of clarifying the terrain through cognitively grasping it, but it alone will not bring about inner
transformation. This is because our souls are imprinted by what touches them directly, so just as the
events of early childhood shaped our souls into personality structures, Being also must directly touch
us for our souls to be informed by It.
Like most people, a Five will first encounter her superego as she settles into herself and begins
experientially to contact the state and contents of her consciousness. Primarily she will have to defend
against her inner attacks on herself about being so wimpy, so empty, and so ineffective in life. As we
have seen, her superego is trying to protect her from experiencing her inner emptiness and gives her a
very hard time about it, which keeps her from directly experiencing it and thus being able to digest
and move through it. If a Five has done or is doing psychological or spiritual work, her superego most
likely measures her against the models used in these systems. She will therefore have to go through a
process of letting go of the cognitive frames that she has learned from these methodologies so that she
can experience herself as she is.
Many Fives are attracted to meditative paths, especially those in which contact with others and the
world is kept to a minimum. While this lack of external engagement cuts down on outer stimulus,
allowing a profound inner confrontation with oneself, such practices can be misused in the service of a
false detachment. For a Five, this can occur through pushing away rather than working through inner
contents that do not fit her spiritual superego’s idea of what she ought to be experiencing. By turning
her attention away from any troublesome direct experience, she can transcend it and become very
skilled at detaching rather than truly moving through it. In conditions of minimal input and
engagement, she can remain in a fairly serene state. This dependency upon external conditions to
support her state, however, is not true detachment, and can become a spiritual culde-sac for her.
In order to let go of needing foreknowledge about her inner process, and of the tendency to detach
from it and transcend it, a Five will have to confront the fear that drives this need, the fear of
experiencing herself exactly as she is. She will see that what she is really frightened of is experiencing
her fundamental state of deficiency, the arid emptiness at the core of her personality. She is afraid that
if she feels it, it will swallow her up and there will be nothing left, and this is ultimately the source of
her fear of engulfment. She has believed that she can conceal this sense of inner poverty from others
and from herself by camouflaging it and simply not exposing it, but sooner or later she will have to
confront it directly.
As she is gradually more and more able to let go of the need to withdraw from this parched
emptiness, an attitude of nonattachment will help move her through this huge hole in her soul. The
more she can experience it directly, the less she will be attached to it. While this may sound
paradoxical, as we have discussed earlier, we hold on to what we are afraid of experiencing. We
perpetuate our attachment to contents of our consciousness by rejecting them, since in this way we
remain engaged with them, albeit in a negative way. Our understanding and awareness cannot
penetrate such places in our souls, and so they remain encapsulated and undigested within our
consciousness.
The more a Five is able to allow and fully experience her emptiness, the more she will see that the
only thing she loses is her fear and her distance from herself. She will feel more and more in contact
with herself as she makes this inner confrontation, and she will feel stronger and more alive. She will
find that the less she holds on to, the more she has, since all she is letting go of are mental structures
and internal images of self and other. The arid inner desert will gradually become a spaciousness and a
fullness, revealing all of the inner treasures of the realm of Being.
There will, of course, be many more nuances to her process—there will be many other inner
contents that she will need to digest and resolve, and her soul will be touched by the various Aspects
of Essence whose associated issues she will have to move through—but experiencing and moving
through her deficient emptiness is central. She will probably have to approach and move through it
over and over again until her soul shifts its primary identification from her personality to Being. Like
all core issues, the emptiness will become eventually more and more transparent—less real and final
—to her.
In time, if she hangs in with her inner journey, her life will also be transformed. Rather than a life
lived from a distance, within conceptualizations and abstractions, she will little by little become more
and more touched by and in contact with reality. And rather than the realms of True Nature simply
being bits of knowledge to be collected, she will experience them directly, her soul permeable and
open. Her quest for knowledge will gradually be replaced by direct understanding, embodied and
integrated in her consciousness, and the thirst in her soul, which she may have only been dimly
conscious of, will at long last be quenched.







* *







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To: Adele Jones

ENNEA-TYPE SIX: EGO-COWARDICE
Those of this ennea-type are characterized by fear. While fear may be present in those of any enneatype,
here it is the central factor that distinguishes this type. Sixes doubt their perceptions, question
and second-guess themselves, are suspicious, lack certainty and confidence, and much of their psychic
energy is directed toward coping with their anxiety. They are the paranoids of the enneagram,
convinced, whether consciously or not, that others are out to get them, undermine them, or otherwise
threaten them. While the underlying internal dynamics are the same, there are two distinct styles of
Sixes: those who are overtly fearful and those who are counterphobic, intent on proving that they are
not afraid. While some Sixes may be phobic in some areas of their lives and counterphobic in others,
one overriding style is usually predominant and apparent in their manner.
In phobic Sixes, their fear and insecurity are obvious. They tend to be furtive in manner, obsequious
to authority figures or those they consider more powerful, have difficulty making decisions and taking
decisive action, ask others for advice and guidance, and may be blindly loyal to a faith, cause, or
leader. There is often a kind of stuttering quality to their actions—one foot forward and one foot back
—and often to their speech pattern as well. Counterphobic Sixes, on the other hand, mask their fear
through trying to behave in ways that will overcome it, or will demonstrate to themselves and others
that they are not, in fact, insecure. They are risk takers and daredevils, seeking out situations that are
challenging and that test their mettle in an effort to prove their strength and confidence.
Sixes have lost touch with the particular perspective on reality—the Holy Idea—that would allay
their fear and doubt. This particular view of reality that Ennea-type Six is the most attuned to has two
names because it has a twofold meaning. The first is Holy Strength. Holy Strength is the perception
that the nature of our soul is Essence. It is the recognition that who we are is not the body or our
thoughts or our emotions but rather a presence or Beingness that has many qualities and has
progressively deeper dimensions of profundity. This presence is seen here as the ground of the soul,
and hence what both gives it strength and is its strength.
Without the recognition of Essence as the inner nature of what we are as human beings, we
experience ourselves as lacking a foundation, and so feel ourselves to be fundamentally weak and
helpless. We are left identified with the body and its instincts, and therefore experience ourselves as
mostly hairless animals with large brains as our only protection. The body is subject to disease and
death, and if we take ourselves to be our bodies, we are indeed in a very precarious situation. Without
recognition of Being, our lives are ephemeral and fleeting, and lack enduring meaning. The more we
are in touch with Being and perceive it from the angle of Holy Strength, the more we know our True
Nature to be indestructible and imperishable, immune to the vicissitudes of the body. While we may
experience physical suffering, if we are grounded in recognition of our depths, even that becomes
bearable. Perception of our essential nature can give us the fortitude to withstand what might
otherwise seem unendurable.
The more we perceive our essential nature, the more we know ourselves to be ultimately
embodiments and expressions of the Divine. While this is true for all of the manifest world, as
humans we alone have the capacity to recognize our deepest nature. This gives us a unique place in
creation and is another aspect of our strength and thus is another nuance of what Holy Strength means.
The effect that this recognition has upon us is what is meant by the second Holy Idea associated
with this point, Holy Faith. The recognition that our inner nature is Essence gives us faith. The use of
the word faith here needs some explanation if we are really to understand this Holy Idea, since the way
it is used is different from our usual understanding of it. In normal usage, faith means that we believe
something is probably true even though we have not directly experienced it and have no real proof of
it. Our faith, then, is intellectual or intuitive rather than experiential. We also use faith in the sense of
being faithful—being loyal to God, to what we see as our duty, or to another person. Here, as a Holy
Idea, faith means that we know our inner nature to be Essence based on our direct contact with it and
our soul’s integration of that contact. This faith is not the result of believing this to be the truth on the
basis of someone else’s experience or some religious or spiritual doctrine.
This experiential knowledge gives rise to the unshakable certainty that Essence is our nature
regardless of whether or not we are feeling in touch with these depths in the moment. We simply know
in a way that cannot be doubted—in our bones as it were—that our inner nature is Being. When we
perceive in this unquestionable way that who we are is Essence, our souls have undergone a radical
transformation. The way we experience the world and ourselves is dramatically different from how it
was prior to this shift in consciousness. We are no longer believers and seekers but have become
identified with Being as who and what we are. This, then, is a particular way of conceiving
enlightenment—seen through the angle of Point Six. The enlightened view of reality that Holy
Strength and Holy Faith focus on, then, is that the nature of our souls—of who we are—is Being.
When we experience ourselves objectively, without the veils of the personality, this is what we know
to be true.
Many people embark on spiritual work and plod along the Path for a long time without feeling that
they have experienced fundamental change. For real transformation to occur, which means a shift in
our soul’s center of gravity from the personality to Essence, we need to know ourselves as Essence in
a way that is beyond doubt. All of the faith we have in any spiritual teacher and teaching is not enough
to change radically our sense of who we are, nor are all of our mental concepts of what objective
reality looks like enough to shift our orientation. Our souls transform only through direct experience.
It is also not enough to directly experience someone else as Essence or even the whole universe as
an embodiment of Being for our sense of who we are to become fundamentally changed. We must
experience directly that our own soul is Essence for us to really integrate Holy Faith. As Almaas says,
We are making the distinction here between an experience of Essence that doesn’t feel like you, that
feels like something alien, or something imposed on you, or induced or transmitted by someone else,
and the experience of Essence as your own inner reality. This is an enormous distinction. Many people
experience Essence and believe that they are just feeling their spiritual teacher or that they have been
hypnotized, and this implies a lack of recognition of Essence as their nature.1
If present, this direct knowing of Essence as our nature serves as a solid foundation for the soul. If
absent, which is the situation when Sixes are identified with their personality, the lack of this ground
creates all sorts of insecurities and fears. In conjunction with the loss of contact with Essence in early
childhood, Sixes lose the recognition that it exists as their inner nature and that it is what sustains
them. This loss of contact with and loss of recognition of Essence may sound like the same thing, but
it is not: you can experience yourself as disconnected from the depth dimension within, and yet still
know with certainty that it exists. While you may not currently be having an essential experience, you
still remember and know that you have had such experiences in the past. Without this Holy Idea, that
knowing is gone. Those experiences feel as though they never happened or as though you made them
up. You and your world are therefore experienced as devoid of Essence and so devoid of all that makes
humanity able to rise above egocentricity and survival concerns to become loving, altruistic, generous,
and noble. Humanity, including yourself, is experienced without these higher impulses and values, and
so you see it operating from purely instinctual and animalistic motives. At the extreme, the world
appears as a Darwinian jungle in which everyone is simply struggling to survive and in which the
strong triumph over and destroy the weak. Love and holding are ephemeral, and life is primarily a
matter of endurance.
This, then, is a Six’s interpretation of the inevitable lack of total holding in infancy because of his
sensitivity to the Holy Ideas of Holy Strength and Holy Faith. The soul of a Six seems constellated
around and frozen in reactive alarm to early unmet physical needs, to impingement, or to an
atmosphere of physical danger. This state of apprehensive guardedness in anticipation of the next
trauma, which a Six feels hopelessly unprepared for, drowns out everything else. The environment was
perceived by him as untrustworthy or unpredictable, and the young Six’s parents were viewed through
this unstable lens. He may have had an alcoholic parent whose behavior seemed to change apparently
at random; or a parent subject to unpredictable fits of rage, triggered by something apparently
insignificant. One of the parents may have had dramatic mood fluctuations, or there may have been
great variations in the quality of attention the child received. The main caretaking parent may have
felt insecure about handling the infant Six’s body or fulfilling his needs, or this parent may have
simply had a timid personality. One parent may have been a stern authority figure, demanding
absolute obedience and permanently intimidating the young Six. Regardless of the actual parents’
reality, these were the factors focused upon and left as imprints because of the Six’s sensitivity to
Holy Faith and Holy Strength. The “interpretation” made by the child’s developing consciousness was
that one or both parents or the environment as a whole couldn’t be consistently depended upon to fill
his needs, which feels life-threatening to a totally dependent infant and young child. The soul, then,
becomes and remains fixated around survival anxiety and the fear of physical death. The inability and
helplessness to meet his own needs, coupled with a seemingly undependable other, become imprinted
and form the core of the sense of self of this ennea-type.
This take on reality, which solidifies in early childhood, shapes the soul of a Six and mushrooms
into a whole worldview that Almaas describes as cynical. Without Holy Faith there is indeed a form of
faith, but it is the conviction that the universe is basically unloving and unsupportive and that human
beings are ultimately self-serving and self-aggrandizing, caring nothing for the consequences of their
actions on others. It’s a dog-eat-dog world, and regardless of whether a Six puffs himself up in an
attempt to prove that he is one of the strong in the struggle or outrightly considers himself to be one of
the weaklings, this is the way reality looks to him. Despite his fluctuation between hopefulness and
doubt, this cynicism—the belief that human conduct is inherently self-serving and based on selfinterest—
becomes consciously or unconsciously firmly set in his soul. In such a world, there is little
trust in human nature, except the “trust” that others are out to get you if you stand in the way of their
selfgratification.
Without the perception of one’s true ground—Essence—there is little in one’s own nature to trust
either, and so the Six is left without a foundation and can only feel hopelessly inadequate in the
struggle of life. Left with only his wits as survival tools in what appears as a threatening world, and
lacking the perception, much less contact with, anything inside that is of real support, this inner sense
of insufficiency is the only possible result. This sense of not having what it takes in the skirmish of
life—the helplessness in the face of an unpredictable and undependable other—is the Six’s deficiency
state and, as touched on earlier, forms the core sense of self. You experience yourself here either
consciously or unconsciously as one of those at risk of not surviving—one of the runts of the litter, the
weak, the ill prepared, the defenseless, the inept, the feeble, the wimps. Others appear more strong,
powerful, tough, intelligent, savvy, skillful, capable, and definitely more self-assured.
This cynical perception of the world and inadequate sense of self in relation to it form the fixed
mind-set—the fixation—of Ennea-type Six, denoted as cowardice on Diagram 2. Out of it arise all of
the behavioral, emotional, and cognitive patterns characteristic of this type, as we shall see.
Focusing on what we’ve seen about how a Six’s orientation toward reality is constellated around
reactive alarm and survival anxiety, we can see that what becomes predominant is the level of pure
physical instinct, the animal part of the human soul. This level, which forms the ground of the
personality regardless of ennea-type as we saw in Chapter 1, is the particular preoccupation of Sixes.
Focusing upon it obscures what lies beneath it, if we conceive of consciousness topographically,
which is the realm of Being. Out of this ground of animal instincts arises not only the selfaggrandizing
and self-serving orientation that Sixes experience as threatening in others but also the
Six’s drive to survive this threat. The instinctual level, then, becomes both the enemy and the savior,
and embedded in this contradiction lies the heart of the conflict and uncertainty that forms the terrain
of the Six landscape.
It is a vicious cycle: inner affects, impetus, and perceptions that could be constructive and
supportive are doubted and invalidated since they might arise from the dangerous part within—the
instinctual and animalistic. So the shadow of doubt blocks all impulse, making it something to
question rather than to act upon. While Sixes often act impulsively and reactively out of their fear, any
spontaneous inner contents are suspect and are picked apart by the mind and rendered lifeless.
The result of all this behavior—which at its heart is self-protective—is, ironically, to undercut the
very ground a Six is standing on. It is a form of self-castration, which psychologically means
rendering oneself impotent or depriving oneself of vitality. Not only is this self-castration a
psychological one, manifesting in all kinds of personality traits that are self-undermining, but it also
sabotages a Six’s contact with the spiritual dimension as well. The invalidation of internal experience
and inhibition of impulse undermine a Six’s capacity to give credence to his process, which is the only
way for his experience to deepen and eventually reconnect him with the essential dimension
underlying it. We see this in selfinhibiting appearing at Point Six on the Enneagram of Antiself
Actions, Diagram 11, reflecting how this undercutting of impulse sabotages his soul’s unfoldment.
This internal weakening of self is the basis of the castration complex defined by Freud that is
typically found in this type: the usually unconscious fear of physical harm or loss of power at the
hands of an authority figure. Psychological understanding holds that if castration anxiety is extreme, it
will manifest as a narcissistic overestimation of the penis in both sexes. The part of the body
associated with Point Six is, naturally, the genitals, and one often has the feeling around Sixes that
they are alternately defending or displaying their genitals through their actions. In this we see an
obvious physical displacement of a psychic sensitivity.
Although a universal phenomenon, what is referred to in the Diamond Approach as the genital hole
is particularly relevant here and might be called a specialty of Point Six. The genital hole is the
experiential sense of an absence where you know your genitals to be. It is one of the first ways -
people typically experience on a physical level their lack of contact with Essence. Staying with this
sense of a hole will lead us to an experience of spaciousness, as though one were in deep space. This
space is the ground out of which all the Aspects of Essence arise. This understanding gives another
level of meaning to castration since without contact with the spiritual dimension, we actually
experience ourselves as being without genitals.2
Without perceiving the ground of Being, and at the same time rejecting—while being rooted in—
the primitive instinctual realm, the world is an uncertain place lacking a real foundation. Things are
therefore inherently unstable and insecure. Others, seen through the lens of cynicism, are not to be
trusted and so cannot be counted on. While they may outwardly appear kind, loving, and supportive,
Sixes watch suspiciously for the other shoe to drop and the true state of affairs to be revealed. The
most insidious uncertainty, however, is inward. Because there is little inside to trust, a Six lives—to a
greater or lesser extent depending upon his degree of fixatedness—not only with a state of uncertainty
but also with difficulty being sure about almost anything. This includes what he feels, wants,
experiences, or thinks. Doubt pervades everything, manifesting in hesitation, indecision, vacillation,
indefiniteness, irresoluteness, oscillation, and skepticism. Because they are not sure where they stand
or what they feel, decision making can become obsessive and fraught with the fear of making the
wrong choice. They stutter—vocally or not—blocking themselves and making it difficult for their
action to flow unimpeded by this self-doubt. Inevitably this makes it very difficult for Sixes to take
decisive and unequivocal action. When they do come to a conclusion and act on it, second-guessing
and worry about having done the wrong thing follow quickly. Their movement—whether physically or
just metaphorically—is therefore jerky, like the animal associated with this point, the rabbit.
The pervasive inner affective state, the passion of Ennea-type Six, is fear, as we see on the
Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. In psychological language, fear is defined as a conscious
response to a realistic external danger, while anxiety is defined as a response to a danger that is
internal and unconscious in origin. For the majority of Sixes, the two appear pretty much synonymous,
since internal threats are experienced as external ones through the defense mechanism of projection,
which we will discuss shortly. The fear and anxiety that Sixes experience as a pervasive ongoing
emotional atmosphere is anticipatory—about what might arise internally or externally. Sixes, in fact,
are rarely afraid in the actual situations they are frightened of, and so the fear is clearly based on
ideation.
Freud is once again relevant here for our understanding about the nature of the anxiety of this
ennea-type. The fact that many of Freud’s theories are so pertinent to the psychology of Sixes may be
because he might have been one himself.3 Freud’s later theory about anxiety differentiated between
two kinds: the first, which he called automatic anxiety, arises from what he called traumatic
situations, in which the psyche is flooded with excessive stimulation that it cannot come to grips with
and so experiences as overwhelming. This kind of anxiety arises primarily in early infancy, before the
ego structure has begun to coalesce. The following quote paraphrasing Freud from Charles Brenner,
M.D., a psychoanalyst and former head of the American Psychoanalytic Association, gives us the
flavor of this type of anxiety:
A young infant is dependent on its mother, not only for the satisfaction of most of its bodily needs,
but also for the instinctual gratifications, which, at least in the early months of life, infants experience
chiefly in connection with bodily satisfactions. Thus, for example, when an infant is nursed, not only is
its hunger sated. It also experiences simultaneously the instinctual pleasure which is associated with
oral stimulation, as well as the pleasure of being held, warmed, and fondled. Before a certain age an
infant cannot achieve these pleasures, that is, these instinctual gratifications, by itself. It needs its
mother to be able to do so. If, when its mother is absent, the infant experiences an instinctual need
which can be gratified only through its mother, then a situation develops which is traumatic for the
child in the sense in which Freud used this word. The infant’s ego is not sufficiently developed to be
able to postpone gratification by holding the drive wishes in abeyance and instead the infant’s psyche
is overwhelmed by an influx of stimuli. Since it can neither master nor adequately discharge these
stimuli, anxiety develops.4
The second, and more relevant form for adults, is the signal anxiety, which we touched upon briefly
in Chapter 1 in discussing Point Six. Here, anxiety arises in anticipation of a traumatic situation rather
than as a result of it and initiates the mobilization of the personality’s defensive functions so that the
situation will not become traumatic. Objective external danger will trigger this anticipatory anxiety
and will cause us to take defensive action, while situations of psychic conflict that feel dangerous will
cause the defensive functions of the ego to ward off the impulse or feeling that threatens to emerge
into consciousness. Using the example above, signal anxiety would arise at a later stage when the
child anticipates his mother leaving, because he would associate the departure with potential trauma
like that described above.
Freud also delineated a series of situations dangerous to the developing ego structure of a child, all
pertinent at specific developmental phases, and all, as we shall see, particularly pertinent to the
psychology of Sixes. The first dangerous situation is the loss of the mothering person, the child’s
caretaker and love object. Later the danger becomes the fear of losing her love, followed
developmentally by the fear of castration. Finally the fear of the latency period—between six and
twelve years of age—is that of punishment by the internalized parental figure, the superego. The
anxiety associated with each of these phase-specific dangers may and indeed does persist into later
phases. This includes adulthood, in which seemingly adult concerns and worries belie these primitive
anxieties buried deep in the unconscious. For Sixes, any and all of these dangerous situations seem
current, if only in the unconscious. The quality of fear and anxiety in a Six may vary from an ongoing
inner state of agitation and worry to outright terror, depending upon the degree of neurosis, but to
whatever extent he is identified with his personality, fear will be present.
The passion of fear is inextricably tied to the Six’s defense mechanism of projection, mentioned
above. It is defined as “a mental process whereby a personally unacceptable impulse or idea is
attributed to the external world. As a result of this defensive process, one’s own interests and desires
are perceived as if they belong to others, or one’s own mental experience may be mistaken for
consensual reality.”5 Because of this defense, it is often difficult for a Six to discern what is
objectively going on in someone else, and what of his own unconscious is being experienced as
belonging to another.
Most often, aggressive and hostile feelings and impulses are projected by Sixes, and in turn fuel
their fear of a malevolent world. Criticism, judgment, and rejection are some of the less overtly
aggressive but nonetheless undercutting projections favored by Sixes. The unconscious “reasoning” of
the soul for projecting aggression is that it was experienced early on as threatening, and so having it
inside oneself means having something dangerous inside. So the Six’s way of getting rid of this
internal threat is to disavow it through projection. Also, experiencing himself as aggressive would
challenge a Six’s core identity as a frightened weakling; and even though that sense of self is painful,
it is nonetheless familiar, and thus ironically safe, territory.
Unallowable feelings of love and sexual attraction, such as homosexual impulses or attraction to
someone who is unavailable, off limits, or uninterested, often undergo a transformation in the process
of projection. The love object then appears hateful or cruel, tormenting and demeaning the Six, who
can then consciously feel hatred and fear of the unconsciously desired object, and can thus
successfully defend against intolerable desires. Another typical variation of this mechanism in Sixes
is the surrendering of power and authority to an idealized other, to whom the Six is unswervingly loyal
and devoted, and who then may become experienced as malevolent, persecuting and castrating the Six.
We will explore this type of projection more thoroughly when we focus on the Six’s relationship with
authority, a particularly loaded area for this ennea-type.
The defense of projection, then, protects a Six from unacceptable inner feelings, thoughts, and
impulses that threaten to become conscious, as well as from the anxiety that would accompany their
emergence into awareness. This anxiety becomes transmuted into fear through projection—fear of an
external other or the world at large. Unacceptable id drives—instinctual and other unconscious
impulses—are experienced outside of himself, which supports and reinforces the Six’s fundamental
cognitive distortion produced by the loss of contact with the Holy Idea—that the world is a dangerous
place filled with thinly veneered selfseeking animals. Projection, then, is fundamental to shaping a
Six’s experience of others and the world. The inner sense of having no stable and solid ground to stand
on, which has its roots in the loss of Holy Strength and Holy Faith, leads to a profound inner sense of
uncertainty and insecurity, as we have seen. Through projection, this becomes displaced onto others
and onto the world at large, which then become seen as unreliable and untrustworthy. The world for a
Six becomes frightening and precarious as much through projection as through early imprinting.
Where one begins and the other ends may be impossible to figure out.
Projection leads us in turn to the subject of paranoia, central to the psychology of this ennea-type.
Paranoia is defined by Webster’s as “a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive
or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others that is based not on objective reality but on a
need to defend the ego against unconscious impulses, that uses projection as a mechanism of defense,
and that often takes the form of a compensatory megalomania.”6 At the extreme, paranoia is a form of
psychosis in which you believe that you are being persecuted, singled out for abuse, maligned, even
poisoned by one person in particular, a group, or the world at large. While normal neurotic Sixes may
at times have such feelings, it is more appropriate to talk about a paranoid attitude when describing
Sixes who are not at the dysfunctional end of the mental-health continuum. This paranoid attitude is
one of hypervigilance and hypersensitivity to slights and attacks, suspiciousness, and a general sense
of mistrust. Almaas refers to this paranoid quality in Sixes as “defensive suspiciousness.”
Not only does a Six’s paranoid attitude lead to feeling victimized, persecuted, and bullied, but it
also leads to treating others this way in the form of scapegoating. Particular individuals or groups of
people may become seen by Sixes as the source of their problems, particularly their sense of weakness
and impotence. This is clear in the two cultures associated with Point Six, Germany and South Africa.
The rise of Nazism in Germany can be seen as the response of a defeated and weakened country in the
aftermath of World War I, in turn disempowering and attempting to destroy those who seemed to
them prosperous and powerful, symbolized by the Jewish intelligencia. In South Africa, the white
minority shored itself up by officially relegating blacks and those of mixed race to inferior status—
theoretically separate but equal, but in fact having no political power in their own country.
Implicit in paranoia is a doubting attitude, which is itself the effect of fear on the mind. When
paranoia is dominant, everything is questioned by a Six through the lens of doubt. This questioning is
not an open examination, an actual indecision, or a careful weighing of the facts of a situation, but
rather a biased one. There is a skepticism about it, a predisposition to disbelieve, a suspiciousness.
This bias is, of course, based on the cynical perspective that the world is a dangerous place filled with
self-serving people who would just as soon undercut you as support you, and that this is the bottom
line of reality. David Shapiro, in his description of the paranoid style, which well delineates the
extreme of Ennea-type Six, discusses this biased suspicious thinking as follows:
A suspicious person is a person who has something on his mind. He looks at the world with fixed
and preoccupying expectation, and he searches repetitively, and only, for confirmation of it. He will
not be persuaded to abandon his suspicion or some plan of action based on it. On the contrary, he will
pay no attention to rational arguments except to find in them some aspect or feature that actually
confirms his original view. Anyone who tries to influence or persuade a suspicious person will not
only fail, but also, unless he is sensible enough to abandon his efforts early, will, himself, become an
object of the original suspicious idea.7
As Shapiro notes, paranoid people will search relentlessly through the data available to them to
confirm what they suspect, asserting and even believing that they are simply trying to get to the truth
of the situation. They are very keen observers, but with the underlying agenda of searching for a clue
that will confirm their suspicions. What is observed, then, is misconstrued to fit the picture that they
already have about how things are. For example, a Six who is convinced that you do not like him,
despite all of your assurances to the contrary, will be hyperalert to any action on your part that might
be construed as rejection and will undoubtedly in time find confirmation of what he fears. Underlying
his hyperalertness is his desire to feel safe and supported so that he can relax, letting down his
vigilance, even if momentarily.
While the inner dynamics are the same, as mentioned at the beginning of this chapter, there are two
very different behavioral styles of Sixes. A Six may manifest both of these styles of behavior at
certain times and in particular life situations, moving back and forth between them. One style,
however, tends as a rule to be the dominant one in his personality. The first is the phobic type: a Six
who feels his fear acutely and becomes paralyzed by it, like a deer caught in the headlights. This style
of Six is timid, indecisive, hesitant, compliant, insecure, and constantly trying to stay safe and out of
danger. Diane Keaton, probably a Six, often appears in roles that exemplify this indecisive and
insecure side of Sixes, while her friend Woody Allen turns the neurotic and paranoid side of this type
into comedy in his films. Phobic Sixes look and act frightened, their souls frozen in fear.
The second type is counterphobic: a Six who tries to act as though he is not afraid. This type of Six
actively seeks out risky situations to prove that he is not frightened or weak. This is the daredevil,
tightrope walking between skyscrapers or placing his head in the mouth of a lion, scaling an
impossible peak or hunting down a violent criminal, pumping and puffing his body up or making splitsecond
decisions speculating with vast sums of money, flying an experimental fighter jet on a
dangerous sortie or snow boarding off a cliff. Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger
exemplify and portray in the movies the bodybuilding version of counterphobic Six, while Harrison
Ford, Willem Dafoe, and Clint Eastwood often portray adventurers and heroes contending with and
barely escaping dangerous predicaments. Linda Hamilton, in her Terminator roles, is a female version.
Counterphobic Sixes can be megalomaniacal, obsessed with appearing heroic, grand, and omnipotent
—the Napoleons and Hitlers of the world. Despite all of a counterphobic Six’s attempts to prove he is
not afraid—or perhaps because of them—his obsession with fear stands out as his motivating drive.
The superego of these two varieties of Sixes has a slightly different flavor. In both cases it is
authoritarian—imperious and overbearing—and demanding total conformity. It reinforces his basic
sense of himself as deficient and just plain not having what it takes in the game of life. In phobic
Sixes, his domineering and bossy inner critic berates him for being so fearful, such a weakling, and for
having no backbone. In counterphobic Sixes, his superego gets projected onto others whom he
experiences as judgmental and critical, undermining and threatening him. His superego demands that
he be tough and strong and, like a phobic Six, castigates him for his fear. A Six’s relationship to his
superego mirrors his relationship with authority figures, as we shall see.
In relationship to authority figures, these two styles behave differently on the surface, and yet are
really coming from the same place deeper down. Both have a hyperattunement to who has power,
rank, authority, and clout and who doesn’t—to who is the boss and who is the peon, in other words.
With little internal sense of a center of strength, power, and guidance, Sixes project that authority
outside of themselves. Because of their internal insecurity and lack of a sense of inner foundation, on
the one hand they see that missing authority outside of themselves in the form of an individual,
organization, or belief system. The phobic type is devoted, dutiful, and fawning in relation to whoever
or whatever they consider this external authority. They are hero-worshipers and devoted followers.
The stereotypical ingratiating sycophant and the faithful and obsequious servant to whom it would be
unthinkable and frightening to step out of that role are examples of this type of Six. They want this
authority to provide the certainty and decisiveness that they lack; they want someone to tell them what
to do and what is right and wrong; they want a creed, cause, or faith they can believe in
wholeheartedly and be loyal to; they want a pillar that will give them a sense of strength and solidity
and will infuse their lives with a sense of meaning, a sense of living for something larger and grander
than oneself; they want something or someone to whom they can be devoted and dutiful. In short, a
phobic Six wants someone or something that will provide him with security, and this is what both
lures him and is his pitfall, as we see on the Enneagram of Traps, Diagram 9.
On the other hand, this hero-worshiping puts Sixes in a subordinate and submissive position, having
turned over all of their inner guidance, judgment, and power to this authority, and this in time feels
like a castration. They have indeed castrated themselves, but, again because of the defense mechanism
of projection, it seems to them that they are the persecuted victims of the authority. Therefore, like
everything else, even a phobic Six’s relationship to authority is ambivalent.
This brings us to the counterphobic Six’s relationship to authority. The counterphobic type is
rebellious, defiant, and obsessed with remaining autonomous, to the point of not recognizing or
acknowledging any external authority. Here we see the archetypal rebel without a cause, resisting
authority to ward off real or imagined undercutting and anticipated castration. Moving along the
continuum further, a counterphobic Six may try to portray himself as the authority, wanting others to
follow and idealize him, as discussed earlier in our examples of Adolf Hitler and Napoleon Bonaparte.
Cult leaders like Jim Jones also exemplify this counterphobic extreme. This is a counterphobic Six’s
attempt to reclaim his inner authority by proving to himself that he has it because he wields so much
power and influence over others. He tries to find security—his trap, as we saw above—through being
revered, feared, and followed by his loyal devotees.
The phobic Six’s need to follow blindly something or someone whom he perceives as greater than
himself and to whom he can subordinate himself and the counterphobic Six’s need to rebel against or
become the authority are reflected in the word idealization at Point Six on the Enneagram of Lies,
Diagram 12. In all these relationships to authority, we see the projection of the qualities of a Six’s real
strength—Essence—onto such a figure. Someone or something needs to be held up and seen as ideal,
strong, and powerful; and someone else needs to be smaller than, be afraid of, and serve this ideal.
This is a Six’s central object relation, regardless of which side of it he identifies himself with.
Both the phobic and counterphobic relationships to authority were manifested in Nazi Germany.
Hitler, the counterphobic paranoid who demanded total allegiance and obedience, received it from a
culture that many perceive as historically looking for strong leaders to follow blindly. Ursula Hegi
explains German behavior in the Nazi era in her novel Stones from the River:
Only a few of the people in Burgdorf had read Mein Kampf, and many thought that all this talk
about Rassenreinheit—purity of the race—was ludicrous and impossible to enforce. Yet the long
training in obedience to elders, government, and church made it difficult—even for those who
considered the views of the Nazis dishonorable—to give voice to their misgivings. And so they kept
hushed, yielding to each new indignity while they waited for the Nazis and their ideas to go away, but
with every compliance they relinquished more of themselves, weakening the texture of the community
while the power of the Nazis swelled.8
Even the phobic type of Six, appearing so acquiescent and deferential on the surface, nonetheless
has a hidden deviant tendency, which may be subtle or more overt. It can manifest as a passive
aggressiveness—saying you are going to do something and then simply not doing it, for example. It
may also take the form of asking everyone’s advice about something, and then rejecting all opinions
in rebellion to being “coerced” by others. Facing this tendency is not easy for a Six. Even for a
rebellious Six, experiencing himself as disloyal or forsaking what he perceives as his duty is
profoundly avoided. He might be a gang member, engaging in activities that the rest of society
considers deviant, but he will see himself as loyal to his comrades.
Deep down, because Sixes cannot be completely and always in agreement with those they hold as
authority figures—cannot be fully dutiful—they experience themselves as deviant and delinquent, and
they believe that they are deficient because of it. Their devotedness belies their underlying lack of
authentic faith, as expressed eloquently by the midtwentieth-century Christian theologian Reinhold
Niebuhr: “Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we
are doubly sure.”9 There is profound shame about not being fully in alignment with whoever or
whatever they consider an authority, and so Sixes avoid this inner sense like the plague. The sense of
being different, outside of the norm, disloyal, or shirking in his duty is almost intolerable for a Six.
For this reason, deviance/delinquency appear at Point Six on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram
10, since these are the experiences a Six most wants to avoid.
The great spiritual teacher Jiddu Krishnamurti, who was probably a Six, focused his work on and
developed a whole spiritual teaching around one’s relationship to authority. He taught rejection of all
outer authority and of any defined practice including formal meditation. Raised to become a world
messiah by the Theosophist Annie Besant during the early years of the twentieth century, he
abandoned the role, refusing to be set up as a figure for disciples to follow. His statement of
dissolution of the order that he was to be the head of declared in effect that “truth is a pathless land,
and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. Truth, being
limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any
organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path.”10
Nowhere is the quality of Essence idealized by Sixes—the idealized Aspect of this ennea-type—
more obvious than in a Six’s relationship to authority. For a Six, the quality of Being that seems to be
what is missing in themselves and that looks like the answer to their problems is the one characterized
by steadfastness, solidity, certainty, definiteness, concreteness, perseverance, resoluteness,
determination, substantiality, and supportedness. This is the Essential Aspect called the White or Will
in the Diamond Approach. It is one of the lataif, subtle centers described in the Sufi system, which are
doors into the essential realm. The lataif also include the Red or Strength Aspect, which we will
discuss when exploring Ennea-type Eight; the Yellow or Joy Aspect, which we will explore when
discussing Ennea-type Seven; the Green or Compassion Aspect; and the Black or Power Aspect.
The experience of Will is feeling the presence of Being as a steadfast and unswerving inner support.
It may feel as if we are standing on or actually are an immense and immovable mountain, and when
we experience it, we know that our essential nature is always present and that it alone is unshakable.
Because the personality is a mental construct, when we are identified with it our soul has no real
foundation or ground. Unlike Being, the personality needs to be constantly shored up and reinforced;
we need others to give us emotional support and affirmation to uphold our sense of who we are. Being,
in contrast, is what is present when we fully relax and stop trying to make anything happen, and when
we let go of all of our beliefs and positions. The presence of Will gives us a sense of confidence in
ourselves and in our capacity to persevere in any enterprise we embark upon. Ultimately it is the
confidence in our ability to persevere in discovering our deepest truths, to travel our inner terrain
resolutely and find out firsthand who and what we really are.11
In the case of the phobic type of Six, the outer authority figure appears to be the embodiment of
Will, while a counterphobic Six attempts to become the embodiment of it himself. The phobic Six’s
devotion, faithfulness, dedication, reliability, and constancy are always in relation to an other who
appears as their anchor, their support, and their foundation—the incarnation of Will, in short. The
counterphobic Six’s heroism and risk taking are attempts to act as though he were the manifestation of
Will. In either case, the personality is shaped in such a way that it mimics the characteristics of real
Will.
The confidence and security of Will are the primary qualities that the Six personality attempts to
replicate and embody, but this solution requires mental, emotional, and physical tension to maintain.
To contact and embody these qualities fully in a real way such that his soul can fully relax and unfold
with a sense of safety, a Six must make sustained contact with his inner depths. To do this, he needs
the virtue associated with this point, courage, as we see on the Enneagram of Virtues in Diagram 1.
The more he faces his inner reality without being swept away by fear and without doubting his
experience, the more he also develops courage. Courage is actually what he needs to be able to
confront memories and parts of himself that feel terrifying and life threatening, and courage is what
manifests the more he is able to do this. Sixes mistake courage for outer acts of bravery, while the
deepest manifestation of courage is being able to face and question fundamental concepts of self and
other embedded in the texture of the soul.
Ichazo defines the virtue of courage as “the recognition of the individual’s responsibility for his
own existence. In the position of courage, the body moves naturally to preserve life.” In contrast to the
Six’s tendency to look for security outside of himself, then, in the form of a person, cause, or creed he
can be devoted to—or if counterphobic, who he can spend his energy rebelling against or becoming
the one others follow and thus support—his orientation needs to shift first of all to self-reliance. If
true transformation is to take place within him, he needs to let go of anything he is holding on to for
security and be willing to face himself courageously as he is. Some of the highlights of what a Six’s
inner journey needs to address follow.
In the spiritual and psychological arenas, facing himself will mean acknowledging and trying to
understand his needs to swallow unquestioningly the teachings he has embraced and to conform
unthinkingly to them. He will find that this tendency is based on doubt rather than certainty: his own
doubt about having any more to him than his personality. Despite his immense loyalty and dedication
to his teacher or teaching, he does not really believe that his nature is Essence. He feels that the
closest he can get to True Nature is proximity to those who seem to embody it. He does not have real
faith in the essential realm based on his own experience, as we discussed concerning the Holy Ideas,
but rather he clings out of fear to blind faith in what another tells him. Courage, then, first of all
means facing this reality about himself unflinchingly. As he does this, he will quickly get in touch
with how little he actually does know with certainty about himself and about others, and how much his
mental orientation is one of suspiciousness and doubt. He will see that this is a very positioned and
fearful bias, arising out of his sense of himself as small, weak, and defenseless. Even if he is
counterphobic and has gone to great lengths to prove how fearless and tough he is, if he is really
honest he will see that he has been defending against this deeper frightened layer underneath.
He will get in touch with his lack of faith in his own perceptions, his doubt and his distrust of
himself. There is history here for him that needs to be explored about what childhood events
contributed to his lack of trust. He may find an authoritarian undermining parental figure or an
unconfident and insecure one. He may have been told repeatedly that he - didn’t know anything and
that he was undependable. He may find that the frightening situations he had to face in early childhood
were so scary for him that he could not trust his perceptions. For some Sixes, the reliance in early
childhood on people whom they feared yet needed created great inner ambivalence and doubt, an inner
uncertainty about what the reality really was.
As he explores this, his fear will undoubtedly arise. He will need to get in touch with the sense of
self and of other that gives rise to this fright: himself as a weakling, the runt of the litter of life,
unequipped and defenseless against a life-threatening world filled with brutal and malevolent others.
He will need to experience and understand how this way of holding things got established and
understand why he feels so inadequate. He may find, if a phobic type, that it was historically not okay
for him to be strong and that he was required to be submissive and malleable. Or, if counterphobic,
that he had to be far tougher than he really felt and that it was not okay for him to express his fear. In
either case, it is unlikely that his fear was really held in his early environment, and to really transform
it, he will find that he is the one who must now allow it and question its basis and whether he really
does need to be so afraid.
He will have to face his drives and impulses, his aggression and his strength, and discover whether
they are really parts of himself that he and others need to be afraid of. Contacting them will put him in
touch with his capacity to be strong and not cower in the face of danger, and this in turn will bring up
his fear of losing someone outside to whom he can relate to either subserviently, rebelliously, or as an
authoritarian. He will, in short, be faced with his aloneness as he lets the inner object relations
dissolve and begins to experience his soul without these veils. Being afraid of others has still kept him
in relationship with them, if only in his own mind, and whether problematic and ambivalent or not,
this has kept him from fully facing himself. His superego will try to keep him from this level of
inquiry, threatening him with losing all of his security.
Getting in touch with and inquiring into his fear will take him to its heart: the fear that he is only an
empty shell with no deeper reality to him. This will bring him to his lack of contact with his essential
nature, and he will see that his fear forms a ring around the places in his soul where this loss of
contact feels like a hole or a gap. Facing the emptiness in these holes will require all of the courage he
can muster, and he will eventually see that the most frightening thing is not the emptiness but the
anticipation—the fear itself—of what might or might not be there. In time he will be able to move
courageously into these empty places in his soul and find that rather than being deadly and devouring
abysses as he had feared, if fully allowed the emptiness becomes a spaciousness. As he experiences
this, his soul will begin to relax as he sees that there has really been nothing to be frightened of within
—which was the root of his fear.
With repeated descents into his inner world over time, out of the spaciousness will arise all of the
various qualities of his True Nature. The more that he has the courage to make these inner forays, the
more he will contact his ground, which in turn will give him a sense of inner security and confidence
in himself. Bit by bit, he will reclaim his depths and find his foundation within. Rather than being a
believer and a follower, he will know Essence firsthand, and out of this experiential contact with
himself, he will know that who he is fundamentally is absolutely unshakable and indestructible.
Rather than being one of the faithful, he will know Essence to be his strength and will see that it is
something he does not need to preserve or protect or be afraid of losing. His faith, at long last, will be
real.




Twos, like their Four sisters, are emotive and dramatic, and are preoccupied with their relationships
with others. Their need for love and approval is extreme—they feel dependent upon it—and in order
to get it, they try to please and play to the object of their affection, fawning over and excessively
praising them. Hence the name of this type, Ego-Flattery. The disproportionate value they place on
those they admire and want to be loved by is their deepest form of flattery. An image type, Twos want
to be seen as loving, generous, kind, empathic, and above all, “there” for others. Their image, then, is
of being a lovable person, and they will go to great lengths to convince others that they really are.
Because of this, they have difficulty saying no to another’s request, and will override their own
feelings and pragmatic constraints in order not to disappoint others. The extremes that Twos go to in
an effort to impress others about what wonderful people they are belies their inner sense of not being
worthy of love.
Ingratiating themselves and being helpful, they try to make themselves indispensable. Rather than
ask directly for what they want from others—especially affection— they give it and tokens of it with
the expectation that the other will reciprocate. Hidden strings are thus attached to all of a Two’s
giving—and Twos can be extremely generous with their time, resources, and even their bodies. If the
other does not fulfill his end of the unexpressed bargain, Twos can become masters of guilt tripping.
Presenting themselves with a veneer of false humility, beneath the surface Twos suffer from a prideful
self-inflation, feeling themselves to be special and, like Fours, entitled to singular treatment. While
pride infuses much of a Two’s behavior, it is nonetheless compensatory for low self-esteem.
Turning to the Holy Idea associated with this type, there are two names for it: Holy Will and Holy
Freedom. We explored in Chapter 4 when discussing the Holy Idea of Point Three how the universe is
a conscious living presence in a constant state of movement, change, and unfoldment. We also saw
that its functioning is not random; its dynamism follows organic and natural laws and principles. All
that occurs is part of this continuous unfoldment, like the changing patterns in one endlessly vast
fabric. We saw that each of us is one part of this immense fabric, each of our lives forming a changing
design within it. Or, to use the analogy we used in discussing Holy Law, we are each like a drop of
water in a great ocean, our own movements inseparable from the continual undulations of that
enormous and endless sea. Holy Will takes this understanding of the dynamism of the universe one
step further, and focuses on the force behind its movements, which has a directionality and an
intelligence implicit in its momentum. There is a unified will, in other words, in the functioning of the
universe.
Everything that happens is an expression of Holy Will, from the birth of a star in a distant corner of
the Milky Way to your hand turning a page of this book. In theistic terms, everything that occurs is
God’s Will. God’s Will is not something mysterious or removed from us—it is expressed in what is
occurring right now and what will occur in the next moment, in - every corner of the universe. Even
though human actions may be out of synch with Being, from a nondualistic perspective even those
events are part of God’s Will. Everything that happens, then, is what God wants to have happen.
Whatever thoughts are going through your mind in response to what I am saying, whatever feelings
you might be having, the impetus to go get a glass of water and look out the window are all God’s
Will manifesting through you right now. If everything is a part of Being, then everything that
transpires everywhere—including within ourselves—must be part of Its unfoldment and therefore
inspired by Its momentum and intelligence. We may not experience ourselves as an indivisible part of
Being, and so may not perceive that everything that occurs within our psyches and within our lives is
part of the will of Being, but that does not change this fundamental truth. All it means is that our
perception is filtered through the separatist lens of the personality, and so our vision is cloudy and we
are not seeing reality clearly.
You might argue that wars and murders and all of the other destructive things that happen cannot
possibly be God’s Will, but if you perceive reality from its most fundamental level, the picture cannot
be otherwise: if the ultimate nature of everything and everyone in the universe is Being, and everyone
and everything is made up of It and so inseparable from It, then it is impossible for anything that
happens to be other than part of the momentum of Being—part of the manifestation of God’s Will, in
other words. Cataclysms and natural disasters only seem not to be part of God’s Will if we take a
subjective position about them and decide that they are not good things. Human behavior that is
hurtful, insensitive, and negative may seem bad to us, but it is nonetheless emanating out of souls
whose ultimate nature is Being, even if they are not functioning in harmony with It. So their actions,
too, can only be part of God’s Will. Additionally, it is a huge presumption to decide that an event is
bad and should not be occurring, since if we could see the bigger picture that encompasses the future
we might see that the event actually has a beneficial function in the long run—and that long run might
be well beyond our lifetimes. That presumption derives from the pride of the personality, a key feature
of this type, as we shall see.
As in our discussion of Holy Perfection, the Holy Idea of Point One, I want to clarify that I am not
condoning or excusing all of the hurtful and malicious ways that humanity treats its fellow members,
nor am I saying that such behavior should not be mitigated and punished. When our view is informed
by seeing life without the veil of the personality—when we see things objectively, in other words—we
see that since most of humanity lives on the surface of themselves, out of touch with their inner
depths, such behavior is inevitable and needs to be curtailed and controlled. To say, however, that such
things should not happen does not make sense—they are a natural consequence of humanity’s
estrangement from its depths. Also, what we consider evil behavior is simply behavior rooted in
ignorance of how things really are. Rather than destructiveness estranging us from the Divine, it is an
expression of our estrangement, which has nothing to do with the underlying presence of that
dimension of existence. The solution to human destructiveness does not lie in trying to regulate or
eradicate it but rather with connecting to a dimension within ourselves in which such behavior does
not make any sense.
Just as it is an immense presumption to assume that what is happening externally should not be
happening, so it is also an immense presumption to assume that what we are experiencing is not what
we are supposed to be experiencing: that we should not be angry at our partner or unsympathetic
toward our best friend, for instance, or that we should be more open and enlightened and not caught in
some emotional state or other. Out of this kind of evaluation of our experience we then set about
trying to manipulate ourselves so that our experience is otherwise. This propensity to be constantly
tinkering with what is going on with us is one of the characteristics of the personality. From the
perspective of Holy Will, everything that we experience and that happens in our lives is what is
supposed to happen. As Almaas says,
You try to relax, you try to quiet your mind, you try to make yourself feel better or make yourself
feel worse. You are always interfering, trying to make something happen other than what is actually
happening. You can only do this if you believe you have your own separate world and you can make
things in it happen the way you want, while really, it is not your choice at all. You are alive today not
because you want to be, but because the universe wants you to be. If you experience anger today, it’s
because the universe chooses to. If you experience love today, it’s because the universe decides to.
This “choosing” on the part of the universe is not the same as predestination. Predestination
implies that there is a plan spelled out somewhere in which everything that is going to happen has
already been determined. Here, we are talking about a universe that is intelligent and creative, where
what is going to happen in the next moment cannot have been planned because it’s going to come out
of this moment, rather than out of some plan written at the time of creation. So from this perspective
there is no predestination, but there is also no free will.1
When we perceive reality from this perspective, we know ourselves to be participants in the Holy
Will of the universe. We know that each of our lives is an expression of God’s Will. When we are in
alignment with this reality, we know that we are being moved rather than being the mover. Moving
with the current of what is happening both inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves is what the
other name for this Holy Idea, Holy Freedom, means. Holy Freedom is the understanding that we’re
only free when we do not resist the flow of what is—when we do not resist God’s Will. What we call
free will is choosing to align with what is or to resist it, and in time we see that only by surrendering
to what is are we truly free.
Holy Freedom, then, is Holy Will perceived from within our human experience. Holy Freedom
means seeing that your personal will and the will of the universe are inseparable. Rather than needing
to assert what you want or manipulating reality to conform to how you think it ought to be, which is
the will of the personality and a central characteristic of Ennea-type Two, when you perceive through
the lens of Holy Freedom you understand that real freedom is being able to surrender to the flow of
what is happening, both inwardly and outwardly. Ultimately the more you perceive reality objectively,
the more clearly you see that even the notion of having your own personal will is a delusion of the
personality. If each of us is a cell in the body of the universe, and that body is moving and changing
organically, it only makes sense that each of us must be part of that unfoldment and the momentum—
the will—behind it. Our personal momentum and direction and that of the larger body of which we are
a part can only be inseparable—it cannot be otherwise. Freedom is not one cell trying to do its own
thing and pushing to have things go the way it wants—again a characteristic of Twos—but rather
every cell knowing that it is participating in the momentum of the Whole and going along with that
movement.
Even the terms surrender and go along with are inaccurate if we are to understand Holy Freedom
completely, since they imply a separate someone who gives up her will and acquiesces to the flow of
the universe. While it feels that way from within the veils of the personality, this is not how things
really are: the notion of a separate will is an illusion, since none of us is inherently separate from the
oneness of Being and, hence, of the direction in which it is unfolding. As Almaas says regarding Holy
Freedom,
The issue of getting one’s own way is a big one for the personality, and the thought of surrendering
to God’s will may seem to involve giving up your own will. However, if you are sincere and truthful
with yourself, and you stay with your experience without trying to change it in any way, you find out
that having your own way is really a matter of surrendering to your inner truth. Your way is following
the thread of your own experience. It is not a matter of choosing or not choosing it; your way is
something that is given to you. It is the road you are walking on, the landscape you are traveling
through. You discover that it is a huge relief not to feel that the territory you are crossing should be
different than exactly how it is for you.2
Within our personal perspective, Holy Will points to the fact that, if unhampered, our souls have an
inherent gravitational pull toward contacting the depths within. This is to say that the human soul
longs to reconnect with and understand the deepest levels of reality. The need to know, to make
conscious everything from the laws of nature to the functioning of our bodies to our inmost Spirit, is
an irrepressible drive within us. Mankind has struggled from the beginning with trying to understand
what we are about and what life is about, and has always had a concept of the transcendent, the Divine,
of what we call God. Within each of us, then, is a drive to know who we really are. Our souls have a
drive to connect with, know, and live the innermost nature of what we are. We have an innate drive to
actualize ourselves, to live our human potential fully, which if allowed takes us to deeper and deeper
levels of reality beyond the subjective, beyond the personality, beyond the separate self.
For someone who is an Ennea-type Two, losing touch with Being in early childhood also means
losing the awareness that she is part of the ongoing flow of the whole universe. There develops a sense
of being cut off from the unfoldment of reality, and the sense that she is not an inseparable part of it,
which she might feel initially in relation to her mother or family, and later more globally. Rather than
experiencing herself as a cell in the larger body of the universe whose functioning is intrinsic and
important to the functioning of the whole, she feels herself to be peripheral and unimportant. Lost is
the sense that she has a place and a purpose in life in her own right, and so lost is the sense of inner
momentum and direction. Personal development and unfoldment as her natural human potential and
driving force become replaced with the sense of being cast out by the universe, left without direction
in some backwater. This is her fixation, her fixed cognitive belief about how things are. (On Diagram
2, we see that the phrase for Ennea-type Two’s fixation given by Ichazo is flattery. This refers to a
Two’s solution to her sense of disconnection from God’s Will: playing to others.)
Lost is the perception of the intelligence and directionality behind what occurs, and so she feels that
she cannot trust that the way things are going is okay, and must make things happen the way she
thinks they ought to be. Not only does she lose a sense of personal purpose and of direction but she
also loses the sense that the universe is inherently supportive of her. She develops the conviction that
she is a separate person, unloved and rejected by Being; and lacking an inner sense of inherent purpose
and connection with the cosmic Will, she must take things into her own hands and make things
happen. Lacking a perception of being part of God’s Will, in other words, she takes on that function
and imitates it through becoming willful. She imposes her individual will on reality within and
without and tries to make it conform to how she thinks it ought to be through manipulating it.
Fundamentally she is trying to create a sense of direction, momentum, purpose, and support which she
has lost contact with in the process of losing contact with her essential nature. Lost is her trust and
perception of her own essential Will, the momentum of her soul, and so she feels she must manipulate
reality and herself to survive.
Her inner sense is one of flatness, a lack of dimensionality and of depth. Hence the nickname of this
type, Ego-Flat. It is as though there were an inner glass ceiling, a limit to the depths she can contact
within herself. Without perception of the support of Being and convinced that her soul does not have
an inherent gravitational momentum toward this realm that she has become estranged from, salvation
must therefore come through others. She turns her gaze to them for that missing sense of a foundation,
an underpinning, a mainstay. The door to her depths seems to lie in making intimate contact with
others, and in this crucial assumption we can see the overlay of her early relationship with mother,
which we will look at shortly. Her inner orientation is focused outward on others whom she tries to
please since she feels dependent on them to connect with herself, and her inner states ascend and
plummet depending on the quality of her contact with them. This dependency is the central
psychological orientation of Twos.
This dependent orientation rests on the Two’s loss of contact with and loss of value for her inner
process. She rejects her inner world and her own experience, mimicking her unconscious sense of
having been rejected by the universe. What she is experiencing is not what is supposed to be
happening, and seems much less important, valid, and interesting than what some valued other is
experiencing. There is no sense that she is being propelled to any place of significance—or indeed any
place at all—by anything within herself, and so she must attach herself to the momentum of someone
else. Rather than being moved to actualize her potential, then, she is driven to connect with some
special other.
The vicissitudes in her early interactions with her mother are filtered through her sensitivity to Holy
Will, and the result is the sense that who she really is was not attended to and her real needs were not
met. Her needs and wants seem subordinate to mother’s will—who gives and withholds nourishment
according to her own timetable, and the inevitable lack of complete attunement translates in the
preconceptual language of the soul into the sense that mother does not love her and rejects who she is.
The Two is acutely sensitive to rifts in attunement, and the impression left on her soul is that mother’s
needs are more important than hers. What develops is the sense of not being centrally important as a
person and of her needs being secondary to those of mother and later to those of all significant people
in her life. Her function becomes satisfying their needs, and she loses touch with the potential for her
own unfoldment as a person.
Whether a Two’s mother was in actuality more self-centered than the mothers of other types or not,
the imprint left on a Two’s soul is that mother is self-absorbed and so not fully there for her, not fully
available or loving. The Two comes to believe that since she could not capture mother’s love and
attention, she is not inherently lovable and must therefore manipulate to get love, and her soul
becomes oriented toward that pursuit. From one angle, all of the Two’s subsequent personality traits
can be seen as efforts to catch mother’s attention and as seductions to win her love in an attempt to
heal this wound in her soul. Her focus becomes, then, to make herself lovable and loved.
Often in the history of a Two is the sense of growing up in the shadow of an idealized parent who
imposed his or her will on the Two—a parent who was the focus of attention and to whom the Two
had to subordinate herself and had to please. This may have been the mother, but often is the father,
and this pattern repeats in later life as the Two attempts to become connected with a prestigious and
prominent partner. There is often in the history of Twos the sense of having been rejected by the
mother and of being the father’s favorite, but in many cases there is the sense of being both parents’
most beloved child. In this lies one of the paradoxes of Twos: while often being the preferred child of
one or both parents, Twos nonetheless feel rejected. This is probably because in the Two’s soul, her
value in the family seemed to have come through the role she played, the image she presented, the
things she accomplished, rather than from her real self.
Regardless of the details of her history, more than anything a Two wants to be loved. Reconnecting
with the flow of the universe is sought through merger with another. In this, we see the idealized
Aspect of this point, the quality of love called Merging Gold in the Diamond Approach. This is the
kind of love we feel when we are in love with someone—that orgasmic sense of melting in ecstatic
union with our beloved, of being enveloped in a blissful cocoon of oneness. The feeling is the stuff of
romantic legends: a rapture of oneness, complete fulfillment in which all separateness is gone, and we
feel dissolved in a golden puddle of bliss. There are no boundaries between us and our beloved, no
sense of where we begin and the other ends. We are completely caught up in this ecstatic love,
galvanized and electrified by it, enthralled in the elation of this sense of profoundly intimate
connection. This Essential Aspect is central to the devotional religious and spiritual paths in which the
goal is letting go of the sense of separate self, the ego, through merging with the Divine in blissful
union.3
This state of being in love evokes our inner state when we were approximately one to six or eight
months old, when our sense of self was fused with our mother, a developmental phase Margaret
Mahler has called symbiosis. During this period, the infant’s predominant experience seems to be that
of being one with mother, and the feeling state is of a sweet, adoring, blissful kind of in-loveness.
Mothers during this period usually feel inseparable from their child and enraptured by him or her. The
sense for both is of being deeply intimate with each other in a merging that feels like ecstatic union.
Being and mother are indistinguishable during those early months, and so this earliest relationship
with another feels inextricably linked in the soul of a Two to union with her depths. The imprint of
this symbiotic relationship, then, leaves the Two with the conviction that union with Being happens
through union with another person.
The psychoanalyst Karen Horney, probably herself a Two, has written eloquently about three types
who she has at different points called those who move toward, against, and away from others; or selfeffacing,
expansive, and resigned types—which correspond very closely to Ennea-types Two, Eight,
and Five respectively. About the type that moves toward others, which corresponds to Ennea-type
Two, she says:
Erotic love lures this type as the supreme fulfillment. Love must and does appear as the ticket to
paradise, where all woe ends: no more loneliness; no more feeling lost, guilty, and unworthy; no more
responsibility for self; no more struggle with a harsh world for which he feels hopelessly unequipped.
Instead love seems to promise protection, support, affection, encouragement, sympathy,
understanding. It will give him a feeling of worth. It will give meaning to his life. It will be salvation
and redemption. No wonder then that for him people often are divided into the haves and have-nots,
not in terms of money and social status but of being (or not being) married or having an equivalent
relationship. . . . To love, for him, means to lose, to submerge himself in more or less ecstatic feelings,
to merge with another being, to become one heart and one flesh, and in this merger to find a unity
which he cannot find in himself. His longing for love is thus fed by deep and powerful sources: the
longing for surrender and the longing for unity.4
Awakening out of the sleep of ego, then, is sought by Twos through transcendent romantic love.
Like Sleeping Beauty, the Two’s life feels suspended until she is rescued by the love of that special
Someone. Wealth, power, and success are all fine, but what she really wants—and feels that she can’t
fully be alive without—is passionate love. The Two’s fairy tale is that if she receives enough support
through being loved, she will be able to be fully herself. Love will set her soul free, and in this we see
one aspect of the personality’s distortion of Holy Freedom. Her will is projected onto others, who can
give or withhold from her the support of love and thus freedom. True freedom is being yourself—fully
being your real self, which is who you are beyond your personality, your historical self. For a Two,
freedom is lost in projecting her will and support onto others, rather than realizing them within
herself. From being centered in herself, the Two becomes centered in and thus dependent upon others,
which is a far cry from real liberation. Freedom that depends on the quality of relationship with
another is not freedom at all, since it is completely conditional. Somewhere deep in the soul of a Two,
she knows this, and this is probably what is behind her inevitable resentment toward those she feels
dependent upon, claiming that they are limiting her freedom. Feeling limited by others upon whom
she feels dependent, and attempting to become free of them rather than of her dependency, describes
her trap of freedom, as we see on Diagram 9.
Twos are not global in their dependency. In addition to evaluating others based upon their
relationship status, as Horney describes, Twos like Fours divide people into those they consider
superior and those they consider inferior, the elite and the peons, the special ones and the hoi polloi.
This is her lie, false valuation, as we see on Diagram 12. The special ones are those at the pinnacle of
the Two’s culture, subculture, or social group, and it is these who matter to her. She can detect them
with her inner Geiger counter and is drawn to them like a moth to a flame. The archetypal groupie and
camp follower, she plays to those she considers important and attempts to seduce them into caring
about her. Her idealization of those she considers special is her highest form of flattery, and hence the
name of this type, Ego-Flattery, as mentioned at the beginning of this chapter. Those she considers
unimportant are expendable to her.
Some Twos do not appear dependent, and in fact go out of their way to demonstrate how little they
care about the affection and opinion of others and how autonomous they are. Rather than being truly
independent, they are counterdependent. Instead of playing to some prominent other, they woo others
into paying court to them. Self-important and regal in their demeanor, such Twos tend to treat others
as subservient and inferior. There will, however, be someone in a counterdependent Two’s life who
she feels dependent upon, whether she can admit it consciously or not. And whether overtly dependent
or counterdependent, the referent is nonetheless the other.
Her central preoccupation, then—indeed her obsession—is the quest for romantic love, and the
emphasis here is clearly on the word quest. While her professed wish is having the object of her desire
reciprocate her love, what actually happens in the life of a Two contradicts this: it never quite works
out the way she envisions it, and she always feels rejected to greater or lesser extents. It is difficult, if
not impossible, to idealize and be obsessed with someone you are in day-to-day relationship with, and
this is one of the reasons Twos unconsciously seek out those who will always be a bit out of reach.
Horney describes and explains the object of desire in the type of obsessive relationships Twos are
prone to, which she descriptively calls “morbidly dependent”:
Morbidly dependent relations are initiated by the unfortunate choice of a partner. To be more
accurate, we should not speak of choice. The self-effacing person actually does not choose but instead
is “spellbound” by certain types. He is naturally attracted by a person of the same or opposite sex
who impresses him as stronger and superior. Leaving out of consideration here the healthy partner, he
may easily fall in love with a detached person, provided the latter has some glamour through wealth,
position, reputation, or particular gifts; with an out-going narcissistic type possessing a buoyant selfassurance
similar to his own; with an arrogant-vindictive type who dares to make open claims and is
unconcerned about being haughty and offensive. Several reasons combine for his being easily
infatuated with these personalities. He is inclined to overrate them because they all seem to possess
attributes which he not only bitterly misses in himself but ones for the lack of which he despises
himself. It may be a question of independence, of self-sufficiency, of an invincible assurance of
superiority, a boldness in flaunting arrogance or aggressiveness. Only these strong, superior people—
as he sees them—can fulfill all his needs and take him over.5
Graphic depictions of such morbidly dependent relationships appear in Somerset Maugham’s novel
Of Human Bondage and in the movie about Victor Hugo’s daughter, The Story of Adele H. In the latter,
Adele Hugo became obsessed with a man who had barely exchanged two words with her, and
unbeknownst to him she followed him doggedly from seaport to seaport. Such relationships—or
infatuations, more accurately—can only be frustrating, and protestations to the contrary, it is
frustration rather than gratification that Twos unconsciously seek out. Again like Fours, once the
conquest has been achieved, the object’s value drops precipitously, as though saying, “Anyone who
loves me must not be worth being in relationship with.” This is also known as the Groucho Marx
syndrome: “I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would have me.” Part of what is behind
this frustrating pattern is that truly being intimate with another brings the risk of being exposed as
unlovable and of being rejected. Another part is that truly being loved, and letting the love in, would
mean having to give up the sense of self ravenous for the love of an elusive and thus endlessly
enticing other that is basic to a Two’s identity. Over and above these two explanations, the inner
hunger and inner neediness can never be satisfied by another since what is missing is contact with
Being, and so trying to fill that need through relationship is doomed to failure.
It may sound as though Twos never marry or form committed relationships, which is not the case.
Some famous Twos, such as Meg Ryan and Alan Alda, seem from the outside to have good marriages,
while others like Shirley Maclaine, Melanie Griffith, Barbara Walters, and Liz Taylor have had a
rocky time in this arena. The point is that regardless of whether a Two’s relationship is really simply
an infatuation or a long-term marriage, some degree of frustration is usually felt by the Two. Even
from the “healthy partner” who Horney “leaves out of consideration” in the quote above, the Two will
always feel some distance. A female Two’s husband may be somewhat aloof, preoccupied with work
or another woman, or just a bit insensitive to her needs. It seems that a Two needs some degree of
frustration for a relationship to remain compelling.
A Two’s primary focus is on getting love as we have seen, and so she tries to get it by presenting
herself as a lovable person, someone who deserves to be loved. An image type, she attempts to present
herself and act in ways that imitate the qualities of Merging Gold, qualities Horney unwittingly
describes in the following quote:
The need to satisfy this urge [for love] is so compelling that everything he does is oriented toward
its fulfillment. In the process he develops certain qualities and attitudes that mold his character. Some
of these could be called endearing: he becomes sensitive to the needs of others—within the frame of
what he is able to understand emotionally. For example, though he is likely to be quite oblivious to a
detached person’s wish to be aloof, he will be alert to another’s need for sympathy, help, approval,
and so on. He tries automatically to live up to the expectations of others, or to what he believes to be
their expectations, often to the extent of losing sight of his own feelings. He becomes “unselfish,” selfsacrificing,
undemanding—except for his unbounded desire for affection. He becomes compliant,
overconsiderate—within the limits possible for him—overappreciative, overgrateful, generous. He
blinds himself to the fact that in his heart of hearts he does not care much for others and tends to
regard them as hypocritical and self-seeking.6
While the last sentence quoted is a bit extreme for most normal neurotic Twos, the Two’s image,
then, becomes one of selflessness, giving without limits, sacrificing herself for another, being selfeffacing,
compliant, empathic, sensitive, and attuned to the needs of others. She demands of herself
that she be, or at least present herself as being, totally compassionate, loving, considerate,
understanding, in touch with and doing something about the suffering of others, and like a
Bodhisattva, putting her fulfillment second to saving everyone on the planet. On top of all that, she
must above all be humble. Naranjo used to characterize the Two “package” as “seductive false
humility.”
Only these lovable attributes are allowed by the Two’s superego, which relentlessly requires that
this saintlike image be attained. The punishment is guilt, and Twos are experts at guilt tripping both
themselves and others. Guilt for not living up to this image forms part of a Two’s emotional
atmosphere, consciously or unconsciously. The inner demand to fulfill the image is impossible
because it is an image, and so not their reality. On the one hand, they feel guilty for not fulfilling this
angelic image, and on the other hand, they feel guilty when they have succeeded in making someone
believe that’s how they really are since they know it is not the truth.
The Two’s superego also demands that in addition to being a saint she also be loved, and if a
relationship does not work out, it is inevitably her fault. If she had tried harder to be a more loving and
desirable person, the inner litany goes, things would have worked out. Jealousy and envy are highly
verboten, but the worst offense for a Two is being selfish. Thinking of herself first, rather than her
partner, family, ethnic group, et cetera, is the capital crime, and so self-sacrifice to the point of
martyrdom are part of the demands of her superego. Because of this, simply setting limits or saying no
to someone is next to impossible for a Two, prior to doing a lot of inner work. She harbors a secret
pride and sense of specialness about her lovable qualities and about what a good person she is being,
but because pride does not fit the humble image she is trying to live up to, it also becomes pushed to
the recesses of her consciousness. We will return to the subject of pride, the passion of this type,
shortly.
She manipulates herself in order to fit the all-loving image. She is constantly fiddling with her inner
experience, measuring it against how she thinks she ought to be and pushing herself to experience
something a little closer to it. The body parts associated with Twos are the hands and arms, fitting for
one who moves things about, pulls strings, and tries to make what she wants happen in imitation of
Holy Will. Internally she does this primarily through repression, the defense mechanism of this type,
in which she simply pushes out of consciousness anything that - doesn’t fit the image. Critical
perceptions and negative feelings about esteemed others, self-centered thoughts and impulses, as well
as neediness and her secret sense of specialness are pushed out of awareness. It is not that these
contents disappear, much as a Two would wish it were so; if they don’t arise to consciousness, they
appear in dreams, psychosomatic conditions, and neurotic symptoms such as anxiety, sleeplessness,
and so on. Although it takes tremendous psychic energy to keep the forbidden contents out of
consciousness, the alternative is worse: it often brings up acute anxiety for a Two to expose to herself
and others thoughts and feelings that do not fit with her idea of being a loving and lovable person.
Naranjo initially saw Twos as the classic Freudian hysterics, but that psychological term has now
fallen out of favor and histrionic has taken its place. Freud’s observation about hysterics is that their
sexuality is deeply repressed because of oedipal conflicts, and the result is psychosomatic symptoms,
what he called fugue states, and other dissociative mental states. Subsequent psychologists have
defined the hysterical character as a person who is “histrionically exhibitionistic, seductive, labile in
mood, and prone to act out oedipal fantasies, yet fearful of sexuality and inhibited in action,”7 an
accurate description of a Two.
Twos repress what they feel and anesthetize themselves to their own impulses, particularly sexual
ones, and the result is a kind of psychic pressure cooker: their emotions are dramatic and their
sexuality leaks out in seductive behavior and appearance. Female Twos tend to dress provocatively
although they are not usually conscious of it. Despite the nonverbal come-on, Twos are uneasy and
nervous about the sexual act itself. They cry easily and copiously—more often with others than when
alone, unlike Fours—and have fits of temper, pique, and impatience when things aren’t going the way
they want them to. Despite the appearance of a lot of affect, Twos are hysterical in that they discharge
emotion rather than fully experiencing it—they tend to be emotionally expressive, demonstrative, and
effusive, yet are not deeply in touch with what they are feeling.
As hysterics, most Twos are nonintellectual, as Naranjo has said, but there is a whole category of
Twos who have highly developed minds and fit Wilhelm Reich’s description of the “big brain”
hysteric. This type of hysteric uses her mind defensively—or, as Elsworth Baker, psychiatrist and
Reichian therapist, says, “uses her intellect as a tall phallus to defend herself against all men.”8 While
Reich thought such hysterics were only female, I have known male Twos who also use their minds in
this defensive way, seducing with their intellect while at the same time preventing real contact.
Neediness, touched on above, deserves a special place in the disallowed emotional experiences for a
Two. Busy intuiting and filling the needs of others, two functions get served. First, a Two fulfills the
image of being a kind of human cornucopia, brimming over with help and resources for others; but
more important, she gets to keep out of consciousness her own gnawing inner sense of neediness and
helplessness. Her dependency on others is difficult to tolerate; she berates herself for feeling weak and
needy. Experiencing her needs, especially for love and attention, blows the bountiful image that she
relies on to get the affection she feels her survival requires, and it also reawakens the early deficits in
attunement that are unbearable memories to her. It is one of the experiences she most avoids, and so
we find neediness at Point Two on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10.
She cannot tolerate feeling deprived since this would bring her within dangerous proximity to her
inner sense of neediness. Because of this, Twos generally have poor impulse control and tend to
develop all sorts of addictive patterns such as overeating, alcoholism, shopping addictions, and
obsessive love relationships. In the personality’s imitation of Holy Freedom, Twos have little
tolerance for any sort of limitations, restrictions, regimens, et cetera, far preferring to throw all
practicality, reason, and caution to the wind in the quest to lead a glamorous and exciting life. A Two
usually appears falsely abundant, as Naranjo notes, even though she may be knee-deep in credit card
debt; and a life of excess seems to be her only acceptable standard of living. License, then, takes the
place of real freedom in the life of a Two and obscures the underlying neediness. This is another
aspect of her trap of freedom. As Naranjo says, “The affectionate and tender type II individual can
become a fury when not indulged and made to feel loved through pampering such as is characteristic
of a spoiled child.”9
She has difficulty tolerating delayed gratification, like buying that great dress or that classy pair of
shoes next month when she will actually have the money to pay for them, or not eating those pieces of
chocolate - every night since she is trying to lose a few pounds. Obviously because of her selfindulgent
tendency, her relationship to her body is affected: Twos often have weight problems. They
crave pleasure and tend to equate food with love, and have little endurance for the deprivation they
feel when limiting their food intake, and that’s much too sensible, anyway. Some Twos are a little or a
lot overweight; some—again, like Liz Taylor—have wild weight swings. For most, regardless of size,
food and intake of all sorts is an issue.
How others see her—particularly others whom she idealizes and looks up to—matters more to her
than anything else. To say that their opinion matters more than her own would be missing the point,
since she often does not have her own opinion because her sense of herself is so dependent on how
others see her. Her self-worth is fragile, resting to a great extent on whether that special other pays
attention to her or not. Quoting Horney:
A third typical feature is part of his general dependence upon others. This is his unconscious
tendency to rate himself by what others think of him. His self-esteem rises and falls with their
approval or disapproval, their affection or lack of it. Hence any rejection is actually catastrophic for
him. If someone fails to return an invitation he may be reasonable about it consciously, but in
accordance with the logic of the particular inner world in which he lives, the barometer of his selfesteem
drops to zero. In other words any criticism, rejection, or desertion is a terrifying danger, and
he may make the most abject effort to win back the regard of the person who has thus threatened him.
His offering of the other cheek is not occasioned by some mysterious “masochistic” drive but is the
only logical thing he can do on the basis of his inner premises.10
This need to be liked, desired, and not rejected makes it very difficult for a Two to tolerate others
being upset or angry at her, and also makes her repress her own negative feelings toward others.
Conflicts mean loss of love, and that would be intolerable. Rather than risk such a loss, she is
understanding and amenable, seeing the other person’s point of view and forgiving him, at least on the
surface, while inwardly noting and holding on to the offense. A Two may offer you her other cheek,
but eventually there will be a price to pay.
With her self-esteem dependent on how others feel about her and her central belief that she is not
lovable, she needs constant reassurances that she is indeed loved. With her perpetual sense of
inadequacy, she needs constant praise. Like a cat, the animal associated with this type, she wants her
back scratched and demands lots of stroking and enormous amounts of attention. Twos are attention
getters who often wear tinkling jewelry or noisy shoes and loudly sigh or weep in groups to draw
attention to themselves. They will often do whatever it takes to get noticed, even if the attention they
get is negative or brings notoriety. Monica Lewinsky, probably a Two, is a current case in point.
Also like a cat, she will walk all over you to get the attention she wants, although you would have a
difficult time getting a Two to acknowledge her self-referent behavior. Rather than asking directly for
attention and pats on the back, Twos give it in order to get it back. The credo of a Two could easily be
Jesus’ precept to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Twos lavish attention, love,
and flattery onto those they want to be loved by, in the hope that what is given will be returned in
kind. There is nothing selfless about what a Two gives. This becomes very obvious if you don’t fulfill
your end of the unspoken bargain: she will try to make you feel guilty and will accuse you of
exploiting her generosity and of using her, and will turn on you with venom and hatred.
Like the proverbial Jewish mother, Twos feed you chicken soup laden with plenty of adoring
schmaltz whether you are hungry or not. But it comes with strings of obligation and guilt attached,
which run something like, “Look at all I do for you, and even though you never call me or think about
me, here I am, sacrificing for you out of the goodness of my heart. Don’t worry about me, I’ll be fine,”
accompanied by a loud sigh and mopping of the brow. Or, as the joke goes, how many Jewish
grandmothers (you can substitute Twos here) does it take to change a lightbulb? “None . . . I’ll just sit
here in the dark.” You don’t have to be Jewish, of course, to give in order to get, or to feel like a
martyred victim: there are versions of the same game in all ethnicities and religious groups.
Twos, then, manipulate through giving to get what they want. They feed you, flatter you, play to
you, cajole you, and as Naranjo used to say, unlike Sixes, who lick boots, Twos—to use a vulgar but
apt phrase—kiss ass. Their biggest manipulation, however, is being helpful. They will help you out
with whatever you need—whether you were aware of the need or not—whether it’s financial help,
doing something for you, listening to your troubles, matchmaking, counseling, cajoling, supporting
you, and so on. They try to insinuate themselves and make themselves indispensable to someone they
need in this way so that they will be needed in return.
Sexuality is the currency Twos often trade in, exchanging sexual favors for love. Twos frequently
equate their lovability and desirability with the number of sexual conquests they have made, and
female Twos often “collect famous cocks,” to use a sixties expression. Sex is used by Twos to fulfill
their need for attention rather than enjoyed as an expression of affection. As discussed earlier, while
Twos often project a very sexy image, they are rarely relaxed and open sexually, appearances to the
contrary.
Giving to get is inherently a frustrating way of operating since a Two’s real needs go
unacknowledged internally and so are unexpressed and ungratified externally. Using their image and
role to elicit love and admiration, Twos rarely feel loved for themselves. Using sexuality as a way of
making contact and gaining acceptance is inevitably unsatisfying. We have discussed the frustration
implicit in a Two’s quest for love, and it’s obvious that thwarting herself and remaining perpetually
unfulfilled are strong threads running through the life and psyche of a Two. The root is her turning
away from herself and depending on others for connection, which is an inherent frustration of her
personal unfoldment. For this reason on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11, which
describes each type’s relationship to their soul, self-frustrating appears at Point Two.
Not only do Twos frustrate themselves but they can be profoundly frustrating to others. While
complaining bitterly to you about how miserable /frustrated/upset they are—and Twos do complain a
lot—any attempts on your part to offer a solution will usually be met with a reason why your
suggestion won’t work. Eric Berne, the founder of Transactional analysis, calls this kind of interaction
the “game” of “Why Don’t You—Yes But.” 11 Berne defines a game as a repetitive social interaction
in which the outcome is predictable and fulfills a motive other than what is being explicitly discussed.
The object here is to prove that no suggestion will work, and like a mild projective identification, this
game makes the other person feel as helpless, hopeless, and frustrated as the Two feels internally. On
a deeper level, if a Two is not taking issue at something, i.e., pitting her will against something, she
would lose her sense of who she is. Some degree of negativity, oppositionality, and disgruntlement is
therefore necessary for a Two to maintain her sense of self.
The passion of Ennea-type Two is pride, as mentioned earlier, as we see on the Enneagram of
Passions in Diagram 2. It is not real self-esteem and an inner sense of self-worth but rather what
Horney calls “neurotic pride.” It is not based on real abilities or achievements but is an inflated sense
of self that is compensatory for the inner feeling of being unlovable and not valuable in herself. Twos
believe they are special—both especially gifted, talented, loving, giving, and so on—but also
especially complicated, neurotic, troubled, put-upon, and so forth. So the prideful self-inflation is both
about their positive as well as their negative qualities. They are larger than life, different from
ordinary people. They are capable of more. They can do more, accomplish more, feel more deeply,
care more, and so on. The other side is their belief that they are especially bad human beings, bigger
failures, more rejectable, more unlovable, and more unworthy than others. They are filled with their
own self-importance and often behave as though they were royalty, currying the admiration and praise
of others. Their pride lies in their puffed-up inner image of themselves—not for being who they are.
They are proud when they are indispensable to that prestigious other; they are proud when they are
sexually desired; they are proud when someone they value gives them special attention; they are proud
when they have given to others in superhuman ways and have behaved like a veritable Saint Teresa.
When their self-sacrifice is not acknowledged or when it is taken for granted, and when they are not
given the special treatment to which they feel entitled, or when they are not the center of attention,
Twos feel deeply hurt and humiliated.
A Two’s pride is not always visible. This is because there are two styles of Twos: those who
manifest the pride more overtly in a grandiose, exhibitionistic, pompous, and entitled manner; and the
more self-effacing type who present themselves in a more humble manner but whose pride is
nonetheless just below the surface.
The virtue associated with Point Two is humility, as we see on the Enneagram of Virtues in
Diagram 1. Ichazo defines humility as the “acceptance of the limits of the body, its capacities. The
intellect holds unreal beliefs about its own powers. The body knows precisely what it can and cannot
do. Humility in its largest sense is the knowledge of the true human position on the cosmic scale.” So
key to the working-through process for a Two is arriving at an objective sense of herself.
Developing humility means for a Two settling into herself first of all. Rather than orienting herself
outward—trying to please, reacting to and responding to others—she needs to turn her attention
inward. Since Twos seem so demanding and so self-referential, it may sound ironic that what she
really needs to do is to focus on herself and give herself the attention she craves from others, but it is
the only way she will ever truly get the contact she craves. Focusing on herself entails getting in touch
with what is truly going on inside under the blather of hysterical emotions and the exciting events and
crises in her life. So she must slow down her frenzy of activity and her flurry of emotion and sense
deeply into herself, getting in touch with what she is actually experiencing. Although the emotions of
a Two can be quite dramatic, she is not really deeply feeling them, as discussed earlier, and fully
experiencing them is necessary for her to develop an authentic sense of self. In the same vein, actually
sensing her body and feeling where its edges are is extremely important for a Two to develop a real
sense of where she leaves off and where her inflated self-image begins.
As she settles into herself, she will see that she is constantly comparing herself to her all-loving and
all-giving idealized self-image and either rejecting herself when she doesn’t measure up or puffing
herself up with pride when she does. She will need to acknowledge her pride and sense of specialness
—not an easy thing for a Two to do. She will get in touch with how her superego continuously rejects
how she is, both inwardly and outwardly, if she does not conform to the grand image it demands she
live up to—and how it usually doesn’t. She needs to see how much her self-assessment shifts
depending upon whether she feels loved or rejected by that significant person in her life, and that
fundamentally she has little self-love and self-acceptance. She will see that she is so sensitive to
rejection from others because it supports her own self-rejection, and she needs to understand
psychodynamically how this way of relating to herself resulted from her early childhood conditioning.
She will see that this internal dynamic is pitting herself against her reality, and rather than this
willfulness changing her or freeing her, it only makes her suffer terribly. Part of the key to being
willing to defend against her superego and beginning to accept herself lies in experiencing directly
how painful and hurtful this dynamic is.
The more she gets out from under her superego and opens to her inner reality, the more she will see
that she is human and that both her capacities and her limits do not determine her value or her lack
thereof. She will be able to accept what she is truly capable of and what she isn’t, what she is really
experiencing and what she would like to be experiencing, and will cease feeling subhuman and having
to compensate for it by acting in superhuman ways. She needs to understand that she is lovable simply
for who she is, not for what she can do for others. This will lead to an honest sense of what she truly
wishes and doesn’t wish to do for others, rather than feeling obligated and guilt ridden if she is not
being there for - everyone. It will also lead to knowing and accepting what her limits are physically,
energetically, psychically, and in honoring them, learning to feel comfortable with saying no to others.
It also entails seeing that her lack of inner limits, which she has called freedom, is simply license
and in fact imprisons her. She needs to see how much she is a slave to her desires, her likes and
dislikes, how difficult it is to say no to gratifying them even if it puts her in financial, physical, or
emotional jeopardy. She needs to see that being realistic about how much money she has or when her
belly is actually full or whether she really needs another new outfit does not make life dull, boring,
and unromantic but in fact provides the ground for her to do things that are truly liberating and
meaningful in her life.
Humility means taking care of herself and giving attention to herself in a pragmatic way, and
instead of seeing this result in her becoming selfish, which she often fears, she will find that she
becomes more and more centered within herself. The more seated in herself she becomes, the more
she can accept, surrender to, and flow with her inner reality, and the freer she becomes of her
historical self and of her dependency on others. The more she opens to herself, the more she will
accept others and truly be able to receive and give the love she has been so desperate for. She will be
able to let go of herself, truly surrendering to what is, and in this, becoming one with her deepest
nature. She will know herself to be one with Being, a drop of sweet honey, melted in ecstatic union
with the Divine.











* *





ENNEA-TYPE SIX: EGO-COWARDICE
Those of this ennea-type are characterized by fear. While fear may be present in those of any enneatype,
here it is the central factor that distinguishes this type. Sixes doubt their perceptions, question
and second-guess themselves, are suspicious, lack certainty and confidence, and much of their psychic
energy is directed toward coping with their anxiety. They are the paranoids of the enneagram,
convinced, whether consciously or not, that others are out to get them, undermine them, or otherwise
threaten them. While the underlying internal dynamics are the same, there are two distinct styles of
Sixes: those who are overtly fearful and those who are counterphobic, intent on proving that they are
not afraid. While some Sixes may be phobic in some areas of their lives and counterphobic in others,
one overriding style is usually predominant and apparent in their manner.
In phobic Sixes, their fear and insecurity are obvious. They tend to be furtive in manner, obsequious
to authority figures or those they consider more powerful, have difficulty making decisions and taking
decisive action, ask others for advice and guidance, and may be blindly loyal to a faith, cause, or
leader. There is often a kind of stuttering quality to their actions—one foot forward and one foot back
—and often to their speech pattern as well. Counterphobic Sixes, on the other hand, mask their fear
through trying to behave in ways that will overcome it, or will demonstrate to themselves and others
that they are not, in fact, insecure. They are risk takers and daredevils, seeking out situations that are
challenging and that test their mettle in an effort to prove their strength and confidence.
Sixes have lost touch with the particular perspective on reality—the Holy Idea—that would allay
their fear and doubt. This particular view of reality that Ennea-type Six is the most attuned to has two
names because it has a twofold meaning. The first is Holy Strength. Holy Strength is the perception
that the nature of our soul is Essence. It is the recognition that who we are is not the body or our
thoughts or our emotions but rather a presence or Beingness that has many qualities and has
progressively deeper dimensions of profundity. This presence is seen here as the ground of the soul,
and hence what both gives it strength and is its strength.
Without the recognition of Essence as the inner nature of what we are as human beings, we
experience ourselves as lacking a foundation, and so feel ourselves to be fundamentally weak and
helpless. We are left identified with the body and its instincts, and therefore experience ourselves as
mostly hairless animals with large brains as our only protection. The body is subject to disease and
death, and if we take ourselves to be our bodies, we are indeed in a very precarious situation. Without
recognition of Being, our lives are ephemeral and fleeting, and lack enduring meaning. The more we
are in touch with Being and perceive it from the angle of Holy Strength, the more we know our True
Nature to be indestructible and imperishable, immune to the vicissitudes of the body. While we may
experience physical suffering, if we are grounded in recognition of our depths, even that becomes
bearable. Perception of our essential nature can give us the fortitude to withstand what might
otherwise seem unendurable.
The more we perceive our essential nature, the more we know ourselves to be ultimately
embodiments and expressions of the Divine. While this is true for all of the manifest world, as
humans we alone have the capacity to recognize our deepest nature. This gives us a unique place in
creation and is another aspect of our strength and thus is another nuance of what Holy Strength means.
The effect that this recognition has upon us is what is meant by the second Holy Idea associated
with this point, Holy Faith. The recognition that our inner nature is Essence gives us faith. The use of
the word faith here needs some explanation if we are really to understand this Holy Idea, since the way
it is used is different from our usual understanding of it. In normal usage, faith means that we believe
something is probably true even though we have not directly experienced it and have no real proof of
it. Our faith, then, is intellectual or intuitive rather than experiential. We also use faith in the sense of
being faithful—being loyal to God, to what we see as our duty, or to another person. Here, as a Holy
Idea, faith means that we know our inner nature to be Essence based on our direct contact with it and
our soul’s integration of that contact. This faith is not the result of believing this to be the truth on the
basis of someone else’s experience or some religious or spiritual doctrine.
This experiential knowledge gives rise to the unshakable certainty that Essence is our nature
regardless of whether or not we are feeling in touch with these depths in the moment. We simply know
in a way that cannot be doubted—in our bones as it were—that our inner nature is Being. When we
perceive in this unquestionable way that who we are is Essence, our souls have undergone a radical
transformation. The way we experience the world and ourselves is dramatically different from how it
was prior to this shift in consciousness. We are no longer believers and seekers but have become
identified with Being as who and what we are. This, then, is a particular way of conceiving
enlightenment—seen through the angle of Point Six. The enlightened view of reality that Holy
Strength and Holy Faith focus on, then, is that the nature of our souls—of who we are—is Being.
When we experience ourselves objectively, without the veils of the personality, this is what we know
to be true.
Many people embark on spiritual work and plod along the Path for a long time without feeling that
they have experienced fundamental change. For real transformation to occur, which means a shift in
our soul’s center of gravity from the personality to Essence, we need to know ourselves as Essence in
a way that is beyond doubt. All of the faith we have in any spiritual teacher and teaching is not enough
to change radically our sense of who we are, nor are all of our mental concepts of what objective
reality looks like enough to shift our orientation. Our souls transform only through direct experience.
It is also not enough to directly experience someone else as Essence or even the whole universe as
an embodiment of Being for our sense of who we are to become fundamentally changed. We must
experience directly that our own soul is Essence for us to really integrate Holy Faith. As Almaas says,
We are making the distinction here between an experience of Essence that doesn’t feel like you, that
feels like something alien, or something imposed on you, or induced or transmitted by someone else,
and the experience of Essence as your own inner reality. This is an enormous distinction. Many people
experience Essence and believe that they are just feeling their spiritual teacher or that they have been
hypnotized, and this implies a lack of recognition of Essence as their nature.1
If present, this direct knowing of Essence as our nature serves as a solid foundation for the soul. If
absent, which is the situation when Sixes are identified with their personality, the lack of this ground
creates all sorts of insecurities and fears. In conjunction with the loss of contact with Essence in early
childhood, Sixes lose the recognition that it exists as their inner nature and that it is what sustains
them. This loss of contact with and loss of recognition of Essence may sound like the same thing, but
it is not: you can experience yourself as disconnected from the depth dimension within, and yet still
know with certainty that it exists. While you may not currently be having an essential experience, you
still remember and know that you have had such experiences in the past. Without this Holy Idea, that
knowing is gone. Those experiences feel as though they never happened or as though you made them
up. You and your world are therefore experienced as devoid of Essence and so devoid of all that makes
humanity able to rise above egocentricity and survival concerns to become loving, altruistic, generous,
and noble. Humanity, including yourself, is experienced without these higher impulses and values, and
so you see it operating from purely instinctual and animalistic motives. At the extreme, the world
appears as a Darwinian jungle in which everyone is simply struggling to survive and in which the
strong triumph over and destroy the weak. Love and holding are ephemeral, and life is primarily a
matter of endurance.
This, then, is a Six’s interpretation of the inevitable lack of total holding in infancy because of his
sensitivity to the Holy Ideas of Holy Strength and Holy Faith. The soul of a Six seems constellated
around and frozen in reactive alarm to early unmet physical needs, to impingement, or to an
atmosphere of physical danger. This state of apprehensive guardedness in anticipation of the next
trauma, which a Six feels hopelessly unprepared for, drowns out everything else. The environment was
perceived by him as untrustworthy or unpredictable, and the young Six’s parents were viewed through
this unstable lens. He may have had an alcoholic parent whose behavior seemed to change apparently
at random; or a parent subject to unpredictable fits of rage, triggered by something apparently
insignificant. One of the parents may have had dramatic mood fluctuations, or there may have been
great variations in the quality of attention the child received. The main caretaking parent may have
felt insecure about handling the infant Six’s body or fulfilling his needs, or this parent may have
simply had a timid personality. One parent may have been a stern authority figure, demanding
absolute obedience and permanently intimidating the young Six. Regardless of the actual parents’
reality, these were the factors focused upon and left as imprints because of the Six’s sensitivity to
Holy Faith and Holy Strength. The “interpretation” made by the child’s developing consciousness was
that one or both parents or the environment as a whole couldn’t be consistently depended upon to fill
his needs, which feels life-threatening to a totally dependent infant and young child. The soul, then,
becomes and remains fixated around survival anxiety and the fear of physical death. The inability and
helplessness to meet his own needs, coupled with a seemingly undependable other, become imprinted
and form the core of the sense of self of this ennea-type.
This take on reality, which solidifies in early childhood, shapes the soul of a Six and mushrooms
into a whole worldview that Almaas describes as cynical. Without Holy Faith there is indeed a form of
faith, but it is the conviction that the universe is basically unloving and unsupportive and that human
beings are ultimately self-serving and self-aggrandizing, caring nothing for the consequences of their
actions on others. It’s a dog-eat-dog world, and regardless of whether a Six puffs himself up in an
attempt to prove that he is one of the strong in the struggle or outrightly considers himself to be one of
the weaklings, this is the way reality looks to him. Despite his fluctuation between hopefulness and
doubt, this cynicism—the belief that human conduct is inherently self-serving and based on selfinterest—
becomes consciously or unconsciously firmly set in his soul. In such a world, there is little
trust in human nature, except the “trust” that others are out to get you if you stand in the way of their
selfgratification.
Without the perception of one’s true ground—Essence—there is little in one’s own nature to trust
either, and so the Six is left without a foundation and can only feel hopelessly inadequate in the
struggle of life. Left with only his wits as survival tools in what appears as a threatening world, and
lacking the perception, much less contact with, anything inside that is of real support, this inner sense
of insufficiency is the only possible result. This sense of not having what it takes in the skirmish of
life—the helplessness in the face of an unpredictable and undependable other—is the Six’s deficiency
state and, as touched on earlier, forms the core sense of self. You experience yourself here either
consciously or unconsciously as one of those at risk of not surviving—one of the runts of the litter, the
weak, the ill prepared, the defenseless, the inept, the feeble, the wimps. Others appear more strong,
powerful, tough, intelligent, savvy, skillful, capable, and definitely more self-assured.
This cynical perception of the world and inadequate sense of self in relation to it form the fixed
mind-set—the fixation—of Ennea-type Six, denoted as cowardice on Diagram 2. Out of it arise all of
the behavioral, emotional, and cognitive patterns characteristic of this type, as we shall see.
Focusing on what we’ve seen about how a Six’s orientation toward reality is constellated around
reactive alarm and survival anxiety, we can see that what becomes predominant is the level of pure
physical instinct, the animal part of the human soul. This level, which forms the ground of the
personality regardless of ennea-type as we saw in Chapter 1, is the particular preoccupation of Sixes.
Focusing upon it obscures what lies beneath it, if we conceive of consciousness topographically,
which is the realm of Being. Out of this ground of animal instincts arises not only the selfaggrandizing
and self-serving orientation that Sixes experience as threatening in others but also the
Six’s drive to survive this threat. The instinctual level, then, becomes both the enemy and the savior,
and embedded in this contradiction lies the heart of the conflict and uncertainty that forms the terrain
of the Six landscape.
It is a vicious cycle: inner affects, impetus, and perceptions that could be constructive and
supportive are doubted and invalidated since they might arise from the dangerous part within—the
instinctual and animalistic. So the shadow of doubt blocks all impulse, making it something to
question rather than to act upon. While Sixes often act impulsively and reactively out of their fear, any
spontaneous inner contents are suspect and are picked apart by the mind and rendered lifeless.
The result of all this behavior—which at its heart is self-protective—is, ironically, to undercut the
very ground a Six is standing on. It is a form of self-castration, which psychologically means
rendering oneself impotent or depriving oneself of vitality. Not only is this self-castration a
psychological one, manifesting in all kinds of personality traits that are self-undermining, but it also
sabotages a Six’s contact with the spiritual dimension as well. The invalidation of internal experience
and inhibition of impulse undermine a Six’s capacity to give credence to his process, which is the only
way for his experience to deepen and eventually reconnect him with the essential dimension
underlying it. We see this in selfinhibiting appearing at Point Six on the Enneagram of Antiself
Actions, Diagram 11, reflecting how this undercutting of impulse sabotages his soul’s unfoldment.
This internal weakening of self is the basis of the castration complex defined by Freud that is
typically found in this type: the usually unconscious fear of physical harm or loss of power at the
hands of an authority figure. Psychological understanding holds that if castration anxiety is extreme, it
will manifest as a narcissistic overestimation of the penis in both sexes. The part of the body
associated with Point Six is, naturally, the genitals, and one often has the feeling around Sixes that
they are alternately defending or displaying their genitals through their actions. In this we see an
obvious physical displacement of a psychic sensitivity.
Although a universal phenomenon, what is referred to in the Diamond Approach as the genital hole
is particularly relevant here and might be called a specialty of Point Six. The genital hole is the
experiential sense of an absence where you know your genitals to be. It is one of the first ways -
people typically experience on a physical level their lack of contact with Essence. Staying with this
sense of a hole will lead us to an experience of spaciousness, as though one were in deep space. This
space is the ground out of which all the Aspects of Essence arise. This understanding gives another
level of meaning to castration since without contact with the spiritual dimension, we actually
experience ourselves as being without genitals.2
Without perceiving the ground of Being, and at the same time rejecting—while being rooted in—
the primitive instinctual realm, the world is an uncertain place lacking a real foundation. Things are
therefore inherently unstable and insecure. Others, seen through the lens of cynicism, are not to be
trusted and so cannot be counted on. While they may outwardly appear kind, loving, and supportive,
Sixes watch suspiciously for the other shoe to drop and the true state of affairs to be revealed. The
most insidious uncertainty, however, is inward. Because there is little inside to trust, a Six lives—to a
greater or lesser extent depending upon his degree of fixatedness—not only with a state of uncertainty
but also with difficulty being sure about almost anything. This includes what he feels, wants,
experiences, or thinks. Doubt pervades everything, manifesting in hesitation, indecision, vacillation,
indefiniteness, irresoluteness, oscillation, and skepticism. Because they are not sure where they stand
or what they feel, decision making can become obsessive and fraught with the fear of making the
wrong choice. They stutter—vocally or not—blocking themselves and making it difficult for their
action to flow unimpeded by this self-doubt. Inevitably this makes it very difficult for Sixes to take
decisive and unequivocal action. When they do come to a conclusion and act on it, second-guessing
and worry about having done the wrong thing follow quickly. Their movement—whether physically or
just metaphorically—is therefore jerky, like the animal associated with this point, the rabbit.
The pervasive inner affective state, the passion of Ennea-type Six, is fear, as we see on the
Enneagram of Passions in Diagram 2. In psychological language, fear is defined as a conscious
response to a realistic external danger, while anxiety is defined as a response to a danger that is
internal and unconscious in origin. For the majority of Sixes, the two appear pretty much synonymous,
since internal threats are experienced as external ones through the defense mechanism of projection,
which we will discuss shortly. The fear and anxiety that Sixes experience as a pervasive ongoing
emotional atmosphere is anticipatory—about what might arise internally or externally. Sixes, in fact,
are rarely afraid in the actual situations they are frightened of, and so the fear is clearly based on
ideation.
Freud is once again relevant here for our understanding about the nature of the anxiety of this
ennea-type. The fact that many of Freud’s theories are so pertinent to the psychology of Sixes may be
because he might have been one himself.3 Freud’s later theory about anxiety differentiated between
two kinds: the first, which he called automatic anxiety, arises from what he called traumatic
situations, in which the psyche is flooded with excessive stimulation that it cannot come to grips with
and so experiences as overwhelming. This kind of anxiety arises primarily in early infancy, before the
ego structure has begun to coalesce. The following quote paraphrasing Freud from Charles Brenner,
M.D., a psychoanalyst and former head of the American Psychoanalytic Association, gives us the
flavor of this type of anxiety:
A young infant is dependent on its mother, not only for the satisfaction of most of its bodily needs,
but also for the instinctual gratifications, which, at least in the early months of life, infants experience
chiefly in connection with bodily satisfactions. Thus, for example, when an infant is nursed, not only is
its hunger sated. It also experiences simultaneously the instinctual pleasure which is associated with
oral stimulation, as well as the pleasure of being held, warmed, and fondled. Before a certain age an
infant cannot achieve these pleasures, that is, these instinctual gratifications, by itself. It needs its
mother to be able to do so. If, when its mother is absent, the infant experiences an instinctual need
which can be gratified only through its mother, then a situation develops which is traumatic for the
child in the sense in which Freud used this word. The infant’s ego is not sufficiently developed to be
able to postpone gratification by holding the drive wishes in abeyance and instead the infant’s psyche
is overwhelmed by an influx of stimuli. Since it can neither master nor adequately discharge these
stimuli, anxiety develops.4
The second, and more relevant form for adults, is the signal anxiety, which we touched upon briefly
in Chapter 1 in discussing Point Six. Here, anxiety arises in anticipation of a traumatic situation rather
than as a result of it and initiates the mobilization of the personality’s defensive functions so that the
situation will not become traumatic. Objective external danger will trigger this anticipatory anxiety
and will cause us to take defensive action, while situations of psychic conflict that feel dangerous will
cause the defensive functions of the ego to ward off the impulse or feeling that threatens to emerge
into consciousness. Using the example above, signal anxiety would arise at a later stage when the
child anticipates his mother leaving, because he would associate the departure with potential trauma
like that described above.
Freud also delineated a series of situations dangerous to the developing ego structure of a child, all
pertinent at specific developmental phases, and all, as we shall see, particularly pertinent to the
psychology of Sixes. The first dangerous situation is the loss of the mothering person, the child’s
caretaker and love object. Later the danger becomes the fear of losing her love, followed
developmentally by the fear of castration. Finally the fear of the latency period—between six and
twelve years of age—is that of punishment by the internalized parental figure, the superego. The
anxiety associated with each of these phase-specific dangers may and indeed does persist into later
phases. This includes adulthood, in which seemingly adult concerns and worries belie these primitive
anxieties buried deep in the unconscious. For Sixes, any and all of these dangerous situations seem
current, if only in the unconscious. The quality of fear and anxiety in a Six may vary from an ongoing
inner state of agitation and worry to outright terror, depending upon the degree of neurosis, but to
whatever extent he is identified with his personality, fear will be present.
The passion of fear is inextricably tied to the Six’s defense mechanism of projection, mentioned
above. It is defined as “a mental process whereby a personally unacceptable impulse or idea is
attributed to the external world. As a result of this defensive process, one’s own interests and desires
are perceived as if they belong to others, or one’s own mental experience may be mistaken for
consensual reality.”5 Because of this defense, it is often difficult for a Six to discern what is
objectively going on in someone else, and what of his own unconscious is being experienced as
belonging to another.
Most often, aggressive and hostile feelings and impulses are projected by Sixes, and in turn fuel
their fear of a malevolent world. Criticism, judgment, and rejection are some of the less overtly
aggressive but nonetheless undercutting projections favored by Sixes. The unconscious “reasoning” of
the soul for projecting aggression is that it was experienced early on as threatening, and so having it
inside oneself means having something dangerous inside. So the Six’s way of getting rid of this
internal threat is to disavow it through projection. Also, experiencing himself as aggressive would
challenge a Six’s core identity as a frightened weakling; and even though that sense of self is painful,
it is nonetheless familiar, and thus ironically safe, territory.
Unallowable feelings of love and sexual attraction, such as homosexual impulses or attraction to
someone who is unavailable, off limits, or uninterested, often undergo a transformation in the process
of projection. The love object then appears hateful or cruel, tormenting and demeaning the Six, who
can then consciously feel hatred and fear of the unconsciously desired object, and can thus
successfully defend against intolerable desires. Another typical variation of this mechanism in Sixes
is the surrendering of power and authority to an idealized other, to whom the Six is unswervingly loyal
and devoted, and who then may become experienced as malevolent, persecuting and castrating the Six.
We will explore this type of projection more thoroughly when we focus on the Six’s relationship with
authority, a particularly loaded area for this ennea-type.
The defense of projection, then, protects a Six from unacceptable inner feelings, thoughts, and
impulses that threaten to become conscious, as well as from the anxiety that would accompany their
emergence into awareness. This anxiety becomes transmuted into fear through projection—fear of an
external other or the world at large. Unacceptable id drives—instinctual and other unconscious
impulses—are experienced outside of himself, which supports and reinforces the Six’s fundamental
cognitive distortion produced by the loss of contact with the Holy Idea—that the world is a dangerous
place filled with thinly veneered selfseeking animals. Projection, then, is fundamental to shaping a
Six’s experience of others and the world. The inner sense of having no stable and solid ground to stand
on, which has its roots in the loss of Holy Strength and Holy Faith, leads to a profound inner sense of
uncertainty and insecurity, as we have seen. Through projection, this becomes displaced onto others
and onto the world at large, which then become seen as unreliable and untrustworthy. The world for a
Six becomes frightening and precarious as much through projection as through early imprinting.
Where one begins and the other ends may be impossible to figure out.
Projection leads us in turn to the subject of paranoia, central to the psychology of this ennea-type.
Paranoia is defined by Webster’s as “a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive
or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others that is based not on objective reality but on a
need to defend the ego against unconscious impulses, that uses projection as a mechanism of defense,
and that often takes the form of a compensatory megalomania.”6 At the extreme, paranoia is a form of
psychosis in which you believe that you are being persecuted, singled out for abuse, maligned, even
poisoned by one person in particular, a group, or the world at large. While normal neurotic Sixes may
at times have such feelings, it is more appropriate to talk about a paranoid attitude when describing
Sixes who are not at the dysfunctional end of the mental-health continuum. This paranoid attitude is
one of hypervigilance and hypersensitivity to slights and attacks, suspiciousness, and a general sense
of mistrust. Almaas refers to this paranoid quality in Sixes as “defensive suspiciousness.”
Not only does a Six’s paranoid attitude lead to feeling victimized, persecuted, and bullied, but it
also leads to treating others this way in the form of scapegoating. Particular individuals or groups of
people may become seen by Sixes as the source of their problems, particularly their sense of weakness
and impotence. This is clear in the two cultures associated with Point Six, Germany and South Africa.
The rise of Nazism in Germany can be seen as the response of a defeated and weakened country in the
aftermath of World War I, in turn disempowering and attempting to destroy those who seemed to
them prosperous and powerful, symbolized by the Jewish intelligencia. In South Africa, the white
minority shored itself up by officially relegating blacks and those of mixed race to inferior status—
theoretically separate but equal, but in fact having no political power in their own country.
Implicit in paranoia is a doubting attitude, which is itself the effect of fear on the mind. When
paranoia is dominant, everything is questioned by a Six through the lens of doubt. This questioning is
not an open examination, an actual indecision, or a careful weighing of the facts of a situation, but
rather a biased one. There is a skepticism about it, a predisposition to disbelieve, a suspiciousness.
This bias is, of course, based on the cynical perspective that the world is a dangerous place filled with
self-serving people who would just as soon undercut you as support you, and that this is the bottom
line of reality. David Shapiro, in his description of the paranoid style, which well delineates the
extreme of Ennea-type Six, discusses this biased suspicious thinking as follows:
A suspicious person is a person who has something on his mind. He looks at the world with fixed
and preoccupying expectation, and he searches repetitively, and only, for confirmation of it. He will
not be persuaded to abandon his suspicion or some plan of action based on it. On the contrary, he will
pay no attention to rational arguments except to find in them some aspect or feature that actually
confirms his original view. Anyone who tries to influence or persuade a suspicious person will not
only fail, but also, unless he is sensible enough to abandon his efforts early, will, himself, become an
object of the original suspicious idea.7
As Shapiro notes, paranoid people will search relentlessly through the data available to them to
confirm what they suspect, asserting and even believing that they are simply trying to get to the truth
of the situation. They are very keen observers, but with the underlying agenda of searching for a clue
that will confirm their suspicions. What is observed, then, is misconstrued to fit the picture that they
already have about how things are. For example, a Six who is convinced that you do not like him,
despite all of your assurances to the contrary, will be hyperalert to any action on your part that might
be construed as rejection and will undoubtedly in time find confirmation of what he fears. Underlying
his hyperalertness is his desire to feel safe and supported so that he can relax, letting down his
vigilance, even if momentarily.
While the inner dynamics are the same, as mentioned at the beginning of this chapter, there are two
very different behavioral styles of Sixes. A Six may manifest both of these styles of behavior at
certain times and in particular life situations, moving back and forth between them. One style,
however, tends as a rule to be the dominant one in his personality. The first is the phobic type: a Six
who feels his fear acutely and becomes paralyzed by it, like a deer caught in the headlights. This style
of Six is timid, indecisive, hesitant, compliant, insecure, and constantly trying to stay safe and out of
danger. Diane Keaton, probably a Six, often appears in roles that exemplify this indecisive and
insecure side of Sixes, while her friend Woody Allen turns the neurotic and paranoid side of this type
into comedy in his films. Phobic Sixes look and act frightened, their souls frozen in fear.
The second type is counterphobic: a Six who tries to act as though he is not afraid. This type of Six
actively seeks out risky situations to prove that he is not frightened or weak. This is the daredevil,
tightrope walking between skyscrapers or placing his head in the mouth of a lion, scaling an
impossible peak or hunting down a violent criminal, pumping and puffing his body up or making splitsecond
decisions speculating with vast sums of money, flying an experimental fighter jet on a
dangerous sortie or snow boarding off a cliff. Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger
exemplify and portray in the movies the bodybuilding version of counterphobic Six, while Harrison
Ford, Willem Dafoe, and Clint Eastwood often portray adventurers and heroes contending with and
barely escaping dangerous predicaments. Linda Hamilton, in her Terminator roles, is a female version.
Counterphobic Sixes can be megalomaniacal, obsessed with appearing heroic, grand, and omnipotent
—the Napoleons and Hitlers of the world. Despite all of a counterphobic Six’s attempts to prove he is
not afraid—or perhaps because of them—his obsession with fear stands out as his motivating drive.
The superego of these two varieties of Sixes has a slightly different flavor. In both cases it is
authoritarian—imperious and overbearing—and demanding total conformity. It reinforces his basic
sense of himself as deficient and just plain not having what it takes in the game of life. In phobic
Sixes, his domineering and bossy inner critic berates him for being so fearful, such a weakling, and for
having no backbone. In counterphobic Sixes, his superego gets projected onto others whom he
experiences as judgmental and critical, undermining and threatening him. His superego demands that
he be tough and strong and, like a phobic Six, castigates him for his fear. A Six’s relationship to his
superego mirrors his relationship with authority figures, as we shall see.
In relationship to authority figures, these two styles behave differently on the surface, and yet are
really coming from the same place deeper down. Both have a hyperattunement to who has power,
rank, authority, and clout and who doesn’t—to who is the boss and who is the peon, in other words.
With little internal sense of a center of strength, power, and guidance, Sixes project that authority
outside of themselves. Because of their internal insecurity and lack of a sense of inner foundation, on
the one hand they see that missing authority outside of themselves in the form of an individual,
organization, or belief system. The phobic type is devoted, dutiful, and fawning in relation to whoever
or whatever they consider this external authority. They are hero-worshipers and devoted followers.
The stereotypical ingratiating sycophant and the faithful and obsequious servant to whom it would be
unthinkable and frightening to step out of that role are examples of this type of Six. They want this
authority to provide the certainty and decisiveness that they lack; they want someone to tell them what
to do and what is right and wrong; they want a creed, cause, or faith they can believe in
wholeheartedly and be loyal to; they want a pillar that will give them a sense of strength and solidity
and will infuse their lives with a sense of meaning, a sense of living for something larger and grander
than oneself; they want something or someone to whom they can be devoted and dutiful. In short, a
phobic Six wants someone or something that will provide him with security, and this is what both
lures him and is his pitfall, as we see on the Enneagram of Traps, Diagram 9.
On the other hand, this hero-worshiping puts Sixes in a subordinate and submissive position, having
turned over all of their inner guidance, judgment, and power to this authority, and this in time feels
like a castration. They have indeed castrated themselves, but, again because of the defense mechanism
of projection, it seems to them that they are the persecuted victims of the authority. Therefore, like
everything else, even a phobic Six’s relationship to authority is ambivalent.
This brings us to the counterphobic Six’s relationship to authority. The counterphobic type is
rebellious, defiant, and obsessed with remaining autonomous, to the point of not recognizing or
acknowledging any external authority. Here we see the archetypal rebel without a cause, resisting
authority to ward off real or imagined undercutting and anticipated castration. Moving along the
continuum further, a counterphobic Six may try to portray himself as the authority, wanting others to
follow and idealize him, as discussed earlier in our examples of Adolf Hitler and Napoleon Bonaparte.
Cult leaders like Jim Jones also exemplify this counterphobic extreme. This is a counterphobic Six’s
attempt to reclaim his inner authority by proving to himself that he has it because he wields so much
power and influence over others. He tries to find security—his trap, as we saw above—through being
revered, feared, and followed by his loyal devotees.
The phobic Six’s need to follow blindly something or someone whom he perceives as greater than
himself and to whom he can subordinate himself and the counterphobic Six’s need to rebel against or
become the authority are reflected in the word idealization at Point Six on the Enneagram of Lies,
Diagram 12. In all these relationships to authority, we see the projection of the qualities of a Six’s real
strength—Essence—onto such a figure. Someone or something needs to be held up and seen as ideal,
strong, and powerful; and someone else needs to be smaller than, be afraid of, and serve this ideal.
This is a Six’s central object relation, regardless of which side of it he identifies himself with.
Both the phobic and counterphobic relationships to authority were manifested in Nazi Germany.
Hitler, the counterphobic paranoid who demanded total allegiance and obedience, received it from a
culture that many perceive as historically looking for strong leaders to follow blindly. Ursula Hegi
explains German behavior in the Nazi era in her novel Stones from the River:
Only a few of the people in Burgdorf had read Mein Kampf, and many thought that all this talk
about Rassenreinheit—purity of the race—was ludicrous and impossible to enforce. Yet the long
training in obedience to elders, government, and church made it difficult—even for those who
considered the views of the Nazis dishonorable—to give voice to their misgivings. And so they kept
hushed, yielding to each new indignity while they waited for the Nazis and their ideas to go away, but
with every compliance they relinquished more of themselves, weakening the texture of the community
while the power of the Nazis swelled.8
Even the phobic type of Six, appearing so acquiescent and deferential on the surface, nonetheless
has a hidden deviant tendency, which may be subtle or more overt. It can manifest as a passive
aggressiveness—saying you are going to do something and then simply not doing it, for example. It
may also take the form of asking everyone’s advice about something, and then rejecting all opinions
in rebellion to being “coerced” by others. Facing this tendency is not easy for a Six. Even for a
rebellious Six, experiencing himself as disloyal or forsaking what he perceives as his duty is
profoundly avoided. He might be a gang member, engaging in activities that the rest of society
considers deviant, but he will see himself as loyal to his comrades.
Deep down, because Sixes cannot be completely and always in agreement with those they hold as
authority figures—cannot be fully dutiful—they experience themselves as deviant and delinquent, and
they believe that they are deficient because of it. Their devotedness belies their underlying lack of
authentic faith, as expressed eloquently by the midtwentieth-century Christian theologian Reinhold
Niebuhr: “Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we
are doubly sure.”9 There is profound shame about not being fully in alignment with whoever or
whatever they consider an authority, and so Sixes avoid this inner sense like the plague. The sense of
being different, outside of the norm, disloyal, or shirking in his duty is almost intolerable for a Six.
For this reason, deviance/delinquency appear at Point Six on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram
10, since these are the experiences a Six most wants to avoid.
The great spiritual teacher Jiddu Krishnamurti, who was probably a Six, focused his work on and
developed a whole spiritual teaching around one’s relationship to authority. He taught rejection of all
outer authority and of any defined practice including formal meditation. Raised to become a world
messiah by the Theosophist Annie Besant during the early years of the twentieth century, he
abandoned the role, refusing to be set up as a figure for disciples to follow. His statement of
dissolution of the order that he was to be the head of declared in effect that “truth is a pathless land,
and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. Truth, being
limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any
organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path.”10
Nowhere is the quality of Essence idealized by Sixes—the idealized Aspect of this ennea-type—
more obvious than in a Six’s relationship to authority. For a Six, the quality of Being that seems to be
what is missing in themselves and that looks like the answer to their problems is the one characterized
by steadfastness, solidity, certainty, definiteness, concreteness, perseverance, resoluteness,
determination, substantiality, and supportedness. This is the Essential Aspect called the White or Will
in the Diamond Approach. It is one of the lataif, subtle centers described in the Sufi system, which are
doors into the essential realm. The lataif also include the Red or Strength Aspect, which we will
discuss when exploring Ennea-type Eight; the Yellow or Joy Aspect, which we will explore when
discussing Ennea-type Seven; the Green or Compassion Aspect; and the Black or Power Aspect.
The experience of Will is feeling the presence of Being as a steadfast and unswerving inner support.
It may feel as if we are standing on or actually are an immense and immovable mountain, and when
we experience it, we know that our essential nature is always present and that it alone is unshakable.
Because the personality is a mental construct, when we are identified with it our soul has no real
foundation or ground. Unlike Being, the personality needs to be constantly shored up and reinforced;
we need others to give us emotional support and affirmation to uphold our sense of who we are. Being,
in contrast, is what is present when we fully relax and stop trying to make anything happen, and when
we let go of all of our beliefs and positions. The presence of Will gives us a sense of confidence in
ourselves and in our capacity to persevere in any enterprise we embark upon. Ultimately it is the
confidence in our ability to persevere in discovering our deepest truths, to travel our inner terrain
resolutely and find out firsthand who and what we really are.11
In the case of the phobic type of Six, the outer authority figure appears to be the embodiment of
Will, while a counterphobic Six attempts to become the embodiment of it himself. The phobic Six’s
devotion, faithfulness, dedication, reliability, and constancy are always in relation to an other who
appears as their anchor, their support, and their foundation—the incarnation of Will, in short. The
counterphobic Six’s heroism and risk taking are attempts to act as though he were the manifestation of
Will. In either case, the personality is shaped in such a way that it mimics the characteristics of real
Will.
The confidence and security of Will are the primary qualities that the Six personality attempts to
replicate and embody, but this solution requires mental, emotional, and physical tension to maintain.
To contact and embody these qualities fully in a real way such that his soul can fully relax and unfold
with a sense of safety, a Six must make sustained contact with his inner depths. To do this, he needs
the virtue associated with this point, courage, as we see on the Enneagram of Virtues in Diagram 1.
The more he faces his inner reality without being swept away by fear and without doubting his
experience, the more he also develops courage. Courage is actually what he needs to be able to
confront memories and parts of himself that feel terrifying and life threatening, and courage is what
manifests the more he is able to do this. Sixes mistake courage for outer acts of bravery, while the
deepest manifestation of courage is being able to face and question fundamental concepts of self and
other embedded in the texture of the soul.
Ichazo defines the virtue of courage as “the recognition of the individual’s responsibility for his
own existence. In the position of courage, the body moves naturally to preserve life.” In contrast to the
Six’s tendency to look for security outside of himself, then, in the form of a person, cause, or creed he
can be devoted to—or if counterphobic, who he can spend his energy rebelling against or becoming
the one others follow and thus support—his orientation needs to shift first of all to self-reliance. If
true transformation is to take place within him, he needs to let go of anything he is holding on to for
security and be willing to face himself courageously as he is. Some of the highlights of what a Six’s
inner journey needs to address follow.
In the spiritual and psychological arenas, facing himself will mean acknowledging and trying to
understand his needs to swallow unquestioningly the teachings he has embraced and to conform
unthinkingly to them. He will find that this tendency is based on doubt rather than certainty: his own
doubt about having any more to him than his personality. Despite his immense loyalty and dedication
to his teacher or teaching, he does not really believe that his nature is Essence. He feels that the
closest he can get to True Nature is proximity to those who seem to embody it. He does not have real
faith in the essential realm based on his own experience, as we discussed concerning the Holy Ideas,
but rather he clings out of fear to blind faith in what another tells him. Courage, then, first of all
means facing this reality about himself unflinchingly. As he does this, he will quickly get in touch
with how little he actually does know with certainty about himself and about others, and how much his
mental orientation is one of suspiciousness and doubt. He will see that this is a very positioned and
fearful bias, arising out of his sense of himself as small, weak, and defenseless. Even if he is
counterphobic and has gone to great lengths to prove how fearless and tough he is, if he is really
honest he will see that he has been defending against this deeper frightened layer underneath.
He will get in touch with his lack of faith in his own perceptions, his doubt and his distrust of
himself. There is history here for him that needs to be explored about what childhood events
contributed to his lack of trust. He may find an authoritarian undermining parental figure or an
unconfident and insecure one. He may have been told repeatedly that he - didn’t know anything and
that he was undependable. He may find that the frightening situations he had to face in early childhood
were so scary for him that he could not trust his perceptions. For some Sixes, the reliance in early
childhood on people whom they feared yet needed created great inner ambivalence and doubt, an inner
uncertainty about what the reality really was.
As he explores this, his fear will undoubtedly arise. He will need to get in touch with the sense of
self and of other that gives rise to this fright: himself as a weakling, the runt of the litter of life,
unequipped and defenseless against a life-threatening world filled with brutal and malevolent others.
He will need to experience and understand how this way of holding things got established and
understand why he feels so inadequate. He may find, if a phobic type, that it was historically not okay
for him to be strong and that he was required to be submissive and malleable. Or, if counterphobic,
that he had to be far tougher than he really felt and that it was not okay for him to express his fear. In
either case, it is unlikely that his fear was really held in his early environment, and to really transform
it, he will find that he is the one who must now allow it and question its basis and whether he really
does need to be so afraid.
He will have to face his drives and impulses, his aggression and his strength, and discover whether
they are really parts of himself that he and others need to be afraid of. Contacting them will put him in
touch with his capacity to be strong and not cower in the face of danger, and this in turn will bring up
his fear of losing someone outside to whom he can relate to either subserviently, rebelliously, or as an
authoritarian. He will, in short, be faced with his aloneness as he lets the inner object relations
dissolve and begins to experience his soul without these veils. Being afraid of others has still kept him
in relationship with them, if only in his own mind, and whether problematic and ambivalent or not,
this has kept him from fully facing himself. His superego will try to keep him from this level of
inquiry, threatening him with losing all of his security.
Getting in touch with and inquiring into his fear will take him to its heart: the fear that he is only an
empty shell with no deeper reality to him. This will bring him to his lack of contact with his essential
nature, and he will see that his fear forms a ring around the places in his soul where this loss of
contact feels like a hole or a gap. Facing the emptiness in these holes will require all of the courage he
can muster, and he will eventually see that the most frightening thing is not the emptiness but the
anticipation—the fear itself—of what might or might not be there. In time he will be able to move
courageously into these empty places in his soul and find that rather than being deadly and devouring
abysses as he had feared, if fully allowed the emptiness becomes a spaciousness. As he experiences
this, his soul will begin to relax as he sees that there has really been nothing to be frightened of within
—which was the root of his fear.
With repeated descents into his inner world over time, out of the spaciousness will arise all of the
various qualities of his True Nature. The more that he has the courage to make these inner forays, the
more he will contact his ground, which in turn will give him a sense of inner security and confidence
in himself. Bit by bit, he will reclaim his depths and find his foundation within. Rather than being a
believer and a follower, he will know Essence firsthand, and out of this experiential contact with
himself, he will know that who he is fundamentally is absolutely unshakable and indestructible.
Rather than being one of the faithful, he will know Essence to be his strength and will see that it is
something he does not need to preserve or protect or be afraid of losing. His faith, at long last, will be
real.





* *





Twos, like their Four sisters, are emotive and dramatic, and are preoccupied with their relationships
with others. Their need for love and approval is extreme—they feel dependent upon it—and in order
to get it, they try to please and play to the object of their affection, fawning over and excessively
praising them. Hence the name of this type, Ego-Flattery. The disproportionate value they place on
those they admire and want to be loved by is their deepest form of flattery. An image type, Twos want
to be seen as loving, generous, kind, empathic, and above all, “there” for others. Their image, then, is
of being a lovable person, and they will go to great lengths to convince others that they really are.
Because of this, they have difficulty saying no to another’s request, and will override their own
feelings and pragmatic constraints in order not to disappoint others. The extremes that Twos go to in
an effort to impress others about what wonderful people they are belies their inner sense of not being
worthy of love.
Ingratiating themselves and being helpful, they try to make themselves indispensable. Rather than
ask directly for what they want from others—especially affection— they give it and tokens of it with
the expectation that the other will reciprocate. Hidden strings are thus attached to all of a Two’s
giving—and Twos can be extremely generous with their time, resources, and even their bodies. If the
other does not fulfill his end of the unexpressed bargain, Twos can become masters of guilt tripping.
Presenting themselves with a veneer of false humility, beneath the surface Twos suffer from a prideful
self-inflation, feeling themselves to be special and, like Fours, entitled to singular treatment. While
pride infuses much of a Two’s behavior, it is nonetheless compensatory for low self-esteem.
Turning to the Holy Idea associated with this type, there are two names for it: Holy Will and Holy
Freedom. We explored in Chapter 4 when discussing the Holy Idea of Point Three how the universe is
a conscious living presence in a constant state of movement, change, and unfoldment. We also saw
that its functioning is not random; its dynamism follows organic and natural laws and principles. All
that occurs is part of this continuous unfoldment, like the changing patterns in one endlessly vast
fabric. We saw that each of us is one part of this immense fabric, each of our lives forming a changing
design within it. Or, to use the analogy we used in discussing Holy Law, we are each like a drop of
water in a great ocean, our own movements inseparable from the continual undulations of that
enormous and endless sea. Holy Will takes this understanding of the dynamism of the universe one
step further, and focuses on the force behind its movements, which has a directionality and an
intelligence implicit in its momentum. There is a unified will, in other words, in the functioning of the
universe.
Everything that happens is an expression of Holy Will, from the birth of a star in a distant corner of
the Milky Way to your hand turning a page of this book. In theistic terms, everything that occurs is
God’s Will. God’s Will is not something mysterious or removed from us—it is expressed in what is
occurring right now and what will occur in the next moment, in - every corner of the universe. Even
though human actions may be out of synch with Being, from a nondualistic perspective even those
events are part of God’s Will. Everything that happens, then, is what God wants to have happen.
Whatever thoughts are going through your mind in response to what I am saying, whatever feelings
you might be having, the impetus to go get a glass of water and look out the window are all God’s
Will manifesting through you right now. If everything is a part of Being, then everything that
transpires everywhere—including within ourselves—must be part of Its unfoldment and therefore
inspired by Its momentum and intelligence. We may not experience ourselves as an indivisible part of
Being, and so may not perceive that everything that occurs within our psyches and within our lives is
part of the will of Being, but that does not change this fundamental truth. All it means is that our
perception is filtered through the separatist lens of the personality, and so our vision is cloudy and we
are not seeing reality clearly.
You might argue that wars and murders and all of the other destructive things that happen cannot
possibly be God’s Will, but if you perceive reality from its most fundamental level, the picture cannot
be otherwise: if the ultimate nature of everything and everyone in the universe is Being, and everyone
and everything is made up of It and so inseparable from It, then it is impossible for anything that
happens to be other than part of the momentum of Being—part of the manifestation of God’s Will, in
other words. Cataclysms and natural disasters only seem not to be part of God’s Will if we take a
subjective position about them and decide that they are not good things. Human behavior that is
hurtful, insensitive, and negative may seem bad to us, but it is nonetheless emanating out of souls
whose ultimate nature is Being, even if they are not functioning in harmony with It. So their actions,
too, can only be part of God’s Will. Additionally, it is a huge presumption to decide that an event is
bad and should not be occurring, since if we could see the bigger picture that encompasses the future
we might see that the event actually has a beneficial function in the long run—and that long run might
be well beyond our lifetimes. That presumption derives from the pride of the personality, a key feature
of this type, as we shall see.
As in our discussion of Holy Perfection, the Holy Idea of Point One, I want to clarify that I am not
condoning or excusing all of the hurtful and malicious ways that humanity treats its fellow members,
nor am I saying that such behavior should not be mitigated and punished. When our view is informed
by seeing life without the veil of the personality—when we see things objectively, in other words—we
see that since most of humanity lives on the surface of themselves, out of touch with their inner
depths, such behavior is inevitable and needs to be curtailed and controlled. To say, however, that such
things should not happen does not make sense—they are a natural consequence of humanity’s
estrangement from its depths. Also, what we consider evil behavior is simply behavior rooted in
ignorance of how things really are. Rather than destructiveness estranging us from the Divine, it is an
expression of our estrangement, which has nothing to do with the underlying presence of that
dimension of existence. The solution to human destructiveness does not lie in trying to regulate or
eradicate it but rather with connecting to a dimension within ourselves in which such behavior does
not make any sense.
Just as it is an immense presumption to assume that what is happening externally should not be
happening, so it is also an immense presumption to assume that what we are experiencing is not what
we are supposed to be experiencing: that we should not be angry at our partner or unsympathetic
toward our best friend, for instance, or that we should be more open and enlightened and not caught in
some emotional state or other. Out of this kind of evaluation of our experience we then set about
trying to manipulate ourselves so that our experience is otherwise. This propensity to be constantly
tinkering with what is going on with us is one of the characteristics of the personality. From the
perspective of Holy Will, everything that we experience and that happens in our lives is what is
supposed to happen. As Almaas says,
You try to relax, you try to quiet your mind, you try to make yourself feel better or make yourself
feel worse. You are always interfering, trying to make something happen other than what is actually
happening. You can only do this if you believe you have your own separate world and you can make
things in it happen the way you want, while really, it is not your choice at all. You are alive today not
because you want to be, but because the universe wants you to be. If you experience anger today, it’s
because the universe chooses to. If you experience love today, it’s because the universe decides to.
This “choosing” on the part of the universe is not the same as predestination. Predestination
implies that there is a plan spelled out somewhere in which everything that is going to happen has
already been determined. Here, we are talking about a universe that is intelligent and creative, where
what is going to happen in the next moment cannot have been planned because it’s going to come out
of this moment, rather than out of some plan written at the time of creation. So from this perspective
there is no predestination, but there is also no free will.1
When we perceive reality from this perspective, we know ourselves to be participants in the Holy
Will of the universe. We know that each of our lives is an expression of God’s Will. When we are in
alignment with this reality, we know that we are being moved rather than being the mover. Moving
with the current of what is happening both inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves is what the
other name for this Holy Idea, Holy Freedom, means. Holy Freedom is the understanding that we’re
only free when we do not resist the flow of what is—when we do not resist God’s Will. What we call
free will is choosing to align with what is or to resist it, and in time we see that only by surrendering
to what is are we truly free.
Holy Freedom, then, is Holy Will perceived from within our human experience. Holy Freedom
means seeing that your personal will and the will of the universe are inseparable. Rather than needing
to assert what you want or manipulating reality to conform to how you think it ought to be, which is
the will of the personality and a central characteristic of Ennea-type Two, when you perceive through
the lens of Holy Freedom you understand that real freedom is being able to surrender to the flow of
what is happening, both inwardly and outwardly. Ultimately the more you perceive reality objectively,
the more clearly you see that even the notion of having your own personal will is a delusion of the
personality. If each of us is a cell in the body of the universe, and that body is moving and changing
organically, it only makes sense that each of us must be part of that unfoldment and the momentum—
the will—behind it. Our personal momentum and direction and that of the larger body of which we are
a part can only be inseparable—it cannot be otherwise. Freedom is not one cell trying to do its own
thing and pushing to have things go the way it wants—again a characteristic of Twos—but rather
every cell knowing that it is participating in the momentum of the Whole and going along with that
movement.
Even the terms surrender and go along with are inaccurate if we are to understand Holy Freedom
completely, since they imply a separate someone who gives up her will and acquiesces to the flow of
the universe. While it feels that way from within the veils of the personality, this is not how things
really are: the notion of a separate will is an illusion, since none of us is inherently separate from the
oneness of Being and, hence, of the direction in which it is unfolding. As Almaas says regarding Holy
Freedom,
The issue of getting one’s own way is a big one for the personality, and the thought of surrendering
to God’s will may seem to involve giving up your own will. However, if you are sincere and truthful
with yourself, and you stay with your experience without trying to change it in any way, you find out
that having your own way is really a matter of surrendering to your inner truth. Your way is following
the thread of your own experience. It is not a matter of choosing or not choosing it; your way is
something that is given to you. It is the road you are walking on, the landscape you are traveling
through. You discover that it is a huge relief not to feel that the territory you are crossing should be
different than exactly how it is for you.2
Within our personal perspective, Holy Will points to the fact that, if unhampered, our souls have an
inherent gravitational pull toward contacting the depths within. This is to say that the human soul
longs to reconnect with and understand the deepest levels of reality. The need to know, to make
conscious everything from the laws of nature to the functioning of our bodies to our inmost Spirit, is
an irrepressible drive within us. Mankind has struggled from the beginning with trying to understand
what we are about and what life is about, and has always had a concept of the transcendent, the Divine,
of what we call God. Within each of us, then, is a drive to know who we really are. Our souls have a
drive to connect with, know, and live the innermost nature of what we are. We have an innate drive to
actualize ourselves, to live our human potential fully, which if allowed takes us to deeper and deeper
levels of reality beyond the subjective, beyond the personality, beyond the separate self.
For someone who is an Ennea-type Two, losing touch with Being in early childhood also means
losing the awareness that she is part of the ongoing flow of the whole universe. There develops a sense
of being cut off from the unfoldment of reality, and the sense that she is not an inseparable part of it,
which she might feel initially in relation to her mother or family, and later more globally. Rather than
experiencing herself as a cell in the larger body of the universe whose functioning is intrinsic and
important to the functioning of the whole, she feels herself to be peripheral and unimportant. Lost is
the sense that she has a place and a purpose in life in her own right, and so lost is the sense of inner
momentum and direction. Personal development and unfoldment as her natural human potential and
driving force become replaced with the sense of being cast out by the universe, left without direction
in some backwater. This is her fixation, her fixed cognitive belief about how things are. (On Diagram
2, we see that the phrase for Ennea-type Two’s fixation given by Ichazo is flattery. This refers to a
Two’s solution to her sense of disconnection from God’s Will: playing to others.)
Lost is the perception of the intelligence and directionality behind what occurs, and so she feels that
she cannot trust that the way things are going is okay, and must make things happen the way she
thinks they ought to be. Not only does she lose a sense of personal purpose and of direction but she
also loses the sense that the universe is inherently supportive of her. She develops the conviction that
she is a separate person, unloved and rejected by Being; and lacking an inner sense of inherent purpose
and connection with the cosmic Will, she must take things into her own hands and make things
happen. Lacking a perception of being part of God’s Will, in other words, she takes on that function
and imitates it through becoming willful. She imposes her individual will on reality within and
without and tries to make it conform to how she thinks it ought to be through manipulating it.
Fundamentally she is trying to create a sense of direction, momentum, purpose, and support which she
has lost contact with in the process of losing contact with her essential nature. Lost is her trust and
perception of her own essential Will, the momentum of her soul, and so she feels she must manipulate
reality and herself to survive.
Her inner sense is one of flatness, a lack of dimensionality and of depth. Hence the nickname of this
type, Ego-Flat. It is as though there were an inner glass ceiling, a limit to the depths she can contact
within herself. Without perception of the support of Being and convinced that her soul does not have
an inherent gravitational momentum toward this realm that she has become estranged from, salvation
must therefore come through others. She turns her gaze to them for that missing sense of a foundation,
an underpinning, a mainstay. The door to her depths seems to lie in making intimate contact with
others, and in this crucial assumption we can see the overlay of her early relationship with mother,
which we will look at shortly. Her inner orientation is focused outward on others whom she tries to
please since she feels dependent on them to connect with herself, and her inner states ascend and
plummet depending on the quality of her contact with them. This dependency is the central
psychological orientation of Twos.
This dependent orientation rests on the Two’s loss of contact with and loss of value for her inner
process. She rejects her inner world and her own experience, mimicking her unconscious sense of
having been rejected by the universe. What she is experiencing is not what is supposed to be
happening, and seems much less important, valid, and interesting than what some valued other is
experiencing. There is no sense that she is being propelled to any place of significance—or indeed any
place at all—by anything within herself, and so she must attach herself to the momentum of someone
else. Rather than being moved to actualize her potential, then, she is driven to connect with some
special other.
The vicissitudes in her early interactions with her mother are filtered through her sensitivity to Holy
Will, and the result is the sense that who she really is was not attended to and her real needs were not
met. Her needs and wants seem subordinate to mother’s will—who gives and withholds nourishment
according to her own timetable, and the inevitable lack of complete attunement translates in the
preconceptual language of the soul into the sense that mother does not love her and rejects who she is.
The Two is acutely sensitive to rifts in attunement, and the impression left on her soul is that mother’s
needs are more important than hers. What develops is the sense of not being centrally important as a
person and of her needs being secondary to those of mother and later to those of all significant people
in her life. Her function becomes satisfying their needs, and she loses touch with the potential for her
own unfoldment as a person.
Whether a Two’s mother was in actuality more self-centered than the mothers of other types or not,
the imprint left on a Two’s soul is that mother is self-absorbed and so not fully there for her, not fully
available or loving. The Two comes to believe that since she could not capture mother’s love and
attention, she is not inherently lovable and must therefore manipulate to get love, and her soul
becomes oriented toward that pursuit. From one angle, all of the Two’s subsequent personality traits
can be seen as efforts to catch mother’s attention and as seductions to win her love in an attempt to
heal this wound in her soul. Her focus becomes, then, to make herself lovable and loved.
Often in the history of a Two is the sense of growing up in the shadow of an idealized parent who
imposed his or her will on the Two—a parent who was the focus of attention and to whom the Two
had to subordinate herself and had to please. This may have been the mother, but often is the father,
and this pattern repeats in later life as the Two attempts to become connected with a prestigious and
prominent partner. There is often in the history of Twos the sense of having been rejected by the
mother and of being the father’s favorite, but in many cases there is the sense of being both parents’
most beloved child. In this lies one of the paradoxes of Twos: while often being the preferred child of
one or both parents, Twos nonetheless feel rejected. This is probably because in the Two’s soul, her
value in the family seemed to have come through the role she played, the image she presented, the
things she accomplished, rather than from her real self.
Regardless of the details of her history, more than anything a Two wants to be loved. Reconnecting
with the flow of the universe is sought through merger with another. In this, we see the idealized
Aspect of this point, the quality of love called Merging Gold in the Diamond Approach. This is the
kind of love we feel when we are in love with someone—that orgasmic sense of melting in ecstatic
union with our beloved, of being enveloped in a blissful cocoon of oneness. The feeling is the stuff of
romantic legends: a rapture of oneness, complete fulfillment in which all separateness is gone, and we
feel dissolved in a golden puddle of bliss. There are no boundaries between us and our beloved, no
sense of where we begin and the other ends. We are completely caught up in this ecstatic love,
galvanized and electrified by it, enthralled in the elation of this sense of profoundly intimate
connection. This Essential Aspect is central to the devotional religious and spiritual paths in which the
goal is letting go of the sense of separate self, the ego, through merging with the Divine in blissful
union.3
This state of being in love evokes our inner state when we were approximately one to six or eight
months old, when our sense of self was fused with our mother, a developmental phase Margaret
Mahler has called symbiosis. During this period, the infant’s predominant experience seems to be that
of being one with mother, and the feeling state is of a sweet, adoring, blissful kind of in-loveness.
Mothers during this period usually feel inseparable from their child and enraptured by him or her. The
sense for both is of being deeply intimate with each other in a merging that feels like ecstatic union.
Being and mother are indistinguishable during those early months, and so this earliest relationship
with another feels inextricably linked in the soul of a Two to union with her depths. The imprint of
this symbiotic relationship, then, leaves the Two with the conviction that union with Being happens
through union with another person.
The psychoanalyst Karen Horney, probably herself a Two, has written eloquently about three types
who she has at different points called those who move toward, against, and away from others; or selfeffacing,
expansive, and resigned types—which correspond very closely to Ennea-types Two, Eight,
and Five respectively. About the type that moves toward others, which corresponds to Ennea-type
Two, she says:
Erotic love lures this type as the supreme fulfillment. Love must and does appear as the ticket to
paradise, where all woe ends: no more loneliness; no more feeling lost, guilty, and unworthy; no more
responsibility for self; no more struggle with a harsh world for which he feels hopelessly unequipped.
Instead love seems to promise protection, support, affection, encouragement, sympathy,
understanding. It will give him a feeling of worth. It will give meaning to his life. It will be salvation
and redemption. No wonder then that for him people often are divided into the haves and have-nots,
not in terms of money and social status but of being (or not being) married or having an equivalent
relationship. . . . To love, for him, means to lose, to submerge himself in more or less ecstatic feelings,
to merge with another being, to become one heart and one flesh, and in this merger to find a unity
which he cannot find in himself. His longing for love is thus fed by deep and powerful sources: the
longing for surrender and the longing for unity.4
Awakening out of the sleep of ego, then, is sought by Twos through transcendent romantic love.
Like Sleeping Beauty, the Two’s life feels suspended until she is rescued by the love of that special
Someone. Wealth, power, and success are all fine, but what she really wants—and feels that she can’t
fully be alive without—is passionate love. The Two’s fairy tale is that if she receives enough support
through being loved, she will be able to be fully herself. Love will set her soul free, and in this we see
one aspect of the personality’s distortion of Holy Freedom. Her will is projected onto others, who can
give or withhold from her the support of love and thus freedom. True freedom is being yourself—fully
being your real self, which is who you are beyond your personality, your historical self. For a Two,
freedom is lost in projecting her will and support onto others, rather than realizing them within
herself. From being centered in herself, the Two becomes centered in and thus dependent upon others,
which is a far cry from real liberation. Freedom that depends on the quality of relationship with
another is not freedom at all, since it is completely conditional. Somewhere deep in the soul of a Two,
she knows this, and this is probably what is behind her inevitable resentment toward those she feels
dependent upon, claiming that they are limiting her freedom. Feeling limited by others upon whom
she feels dependent, and attempting to become free of them rather than of her dependency, describes
her trap of freedom, as we see on Diagram 9.
Twos are not global in their dependency. In addition to evaluating others based upon their
relationship status, as Horney describes, Twos like Fours divide people into those they consider
superior and those they consider inferior, the elite and the peons, the special ones and the hoi polloi.
This is her lie, false valuation, as we see on Diagram 12. The special ones are those at the pinnacle of
the Two’s culture, subculture, or social group, and it is these who matter to her. She can detect them
with her inner Geiger counter and is drawn to them like a moth to a flame. The archetypal groupie and
camp follower, she plays to those she considers important and attempts to seduce them into caring
about her. Her idealization of those she considers special is her highest form of flattery, and hence the
name of this type, Ego-Flattery, as mentioned at the beginning of this chapter. Those she considers
unimportant are expendable to her.
Some Twos do not appear dependent, and in fact go out of their way to demonstrate how little they
care about the affection and opinion of others and how autonomous they are. Rather than being truly
independent, they are counterdependent. Instead of playing to some prominent other, they woo others
into paying court to them. Self-important and regal in their demeanor, such Twos tend to treat others
as subservient and inferior. There will, however, be someone in a counterdependent Two’s life who
she feels dependent upon, whether she can admit it consciously or not. And whether overtly dependent
or counterdependent, the referent is nonetheless the other.
Her central preoccupation, then—indeed her obsession—is the quest for romantic love, and the
emphasis here is clearly on the word quest. While her professed wish is having the object of her desire
reciprocate her love, what actually happens in the life of a Two contradicts this: it never quite works
out the way she envisions it, and she always feels rejected to greater or lesser extents. It is difficult, if
not impossible, to idealize and be obsessed with someone you are in day-to-day relationship with, and
this is one of the reasons Twos unconsciously seek out those who will always be a bit out of reach.
Horney describes and explains the object of desire in the type of obsessive relationships Twos are
prone to, which she descriptively calls “morbidly dependent”:
Morbidly dependent relations are initiated by the unfortunate choice of a partner. To be more
accurate, we should not speak of choice. The self-effacing person actually does not choose but instead
is “spellbound” by certain types. He is naturally attracted by a person of the same or opposite sex
who impresses him as stronger and superior. Leaving out of consideration here the healthy partner, he
may easily fall in love with a detached person, provided the latter has some glamour through wealth,
position, reputation, or particular gifts; with an out-going narcissistic type possessing a buoyant selfassurance
similar to his own; with an arrogant-vindictive type who dares to make open claims and is
unconcerned about being haughty and offensive. Several reasons combine for his being easily
infatuated with these personalities. He is inclined to overrate them because they all seem to possess
attributes which he not only bitterly misses in himself but ones for the lack of which he despises
himself. It may be a question of independence, of self-sufficiency, of an invincible assurance of
superiority, a boldness in flaunting arrogance or aggressiveness. Only these strong, superior people—
as he sees them—can fulfill all his needs and take him over.5
Graphic depictions of such morbidly dependent relationships appear in Somerset Maugham’s novel
Of Human Bondage and in the movie about Victor Hugo’s daughter, The Story of Adele H. In the latter,
Adele Hugo became obsessed with a man who had barely exchanged two words with her, and
unbeknownst to him she followed him doggedly from seaport to seaport. Such relationships—or
infatuations, more accurately—can only be frustrating, and protestations to the contrary, it is
frustration rather than gratification that Twos unconsciously seek out. Again like Fours, once the
conquest has been achieved, the object’s value drops precipitously, as though saying, “Anyone who
loves me must not be worth being in relationship with.” This is also known as the Groucho Marx
syndrome: “I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would have me.” Part of what is behind
this frustrating pattern is that truly being intimate with another brings the risk of being exposed as
unlovable and of being rejected. Another part is that truly being loved, and letting the love in, would
mean having to give up the sense of self ravenous for the love of an elusive and thus endlessly
enticing other that is basic to a Two’s identity. Over and above these two explanations, the inner
hunger and inner neediness can never be satisfied by another since what is missing is contact with
Being, and so trying to fill that need through relationship is doomed to failure.
It may sound as though Twos never marry or form committed relationships, which is not the case.
Some famous Twos, such as Meg Ryan and Alan Alda, seem from the outside to have good marriages,
while others like Shirley Maclaine, Melanie Griffith, Barbara Walters, and Liz Taylor have had a
rocky time in this arena. The point is that regardless of whether a Two’s relationship is really simply
an infatuation or a long-term marriage, some degree of frustration is usually felt by the Two. Even
from the “healthy partner” who Horney “leaves out of consideration” in the quote above, the Two will
always feel some distance. A female Two’s husband may be somewhat aloof, preoccupied with work
or another woman, or just a bit insensitive to her needs. It seems that a Two needs some degree of
frustration for a relationship to remain compelling.
A Two’s primary focus is on getting love as we have seen, and so she tries to get it by presenting
herself as a lovable person, someone who deserves to be loved. An image type, she attempts to present
herself and act in ways that imitate the qualities of Merging Gold, qualities Horney unwittingly
describes in the following quote:
The need to satisfy this urge [for love] is so compelling that everything he does is oriented toward
its fulfillment. In the process he develops certain qualities and attitudes that mold his character. Some
of these could be called endearing: he becomes sensitive to the needs of others—within the frame of
what he is able to understand emotionally. For example, though he is likely to be quite oblivious to a
detached person’s wish to be aloof, he will be alert to another’s need for sympathy, help, approval,
and so on. He tries automatically to live up to the expectations of others, or to what he believes to be
their expectations, often to the extent of losing sight of his own feelings. He becomes “unselfish,” selfsacrificing,
undemanding—except for his unbounded desire for affection. He becomes compliant,
overconsiderate—within the limits possible for him—overappreciative, overgrateful, generous. He
blinds himself to the fact that in his heart of hearts he does not care much for others and tends to
regard them as hypocritical and self-seeking.6
While the last sentence quoted is a bit extreme for most normal neurotic Twos, the Two’s image,
then, becomes one of selflessness, giving without limits, sacrificing herself for another, being selfeffacing,
compliant, empathic, sensitive, and attuned to the needs of others. She demands of herself
that she be, or at least present herself as being, totally compassionate, loving, considerate,
understanding, in touch with and doing something about the suffering of others, and like a
Bodhisattva, putting her fulfillment second to saving everyone on the planet. On top of all that, she
must above all be humble. Naranjo used to characterize the Two “package” as “seductive false
humility.”
Only these lovable attributes are allowed by the Two’s superego, which relentlessly requires that
this saintlike image be attained. The punishment is guilt, and Twos are experts at guilt tripping both
themselves and others. Guilt for not living up to this image forms part of a Two’s emotional
atmosphere, consciously or unconsciously. The inner demand to fulfill the image is impossible
because it is an image, and so not their reality. On the one hand, they feel guilty for not fulfilling this
angelic image, and on the other hand, they feel guilty when they have succeeded in making someone
believe that’s how they really are since they know it is not the truth.
The Two’s superego also demands that in addition to being a saint she also be loved, and if a
relationship does not work out, it is inevitably her fault. If she had tried harder to be a more loving and
desirable person, the inner litany goes, things would have worked out. Jealousy and envy are highly
verboten, but the worst offense for a Two is being selfish. Thinking of herself first, rather than her
partner, family, ethnic group, et cetera, is the capital crime, and so self-sacrifice to the point of
martyrdom are part of the demands of her superego. Because of this, simply setting limits or saying no
to someone is next to impossible for a Two, prior to doing a lot of inner work. She harbors a secret
pride and sense of specialness about her lovable qualities and about what a good person she is being,
but because pride does not fit the humble image she is trying to live up to, it also becomes pushed to
the recesses of her consciousness. We will return to the subject of pride, the passion of this type,
shortly.
She manipulates herself in order to fit the all-loving image. She is constantly fiddling with her inner
experience, measuring it against how she thinks she ought to be and pushing herself to experience
something a little closer to it. The body parts associated with Twos are the hands and arms, fitting for
one who moves things about, pulls strings, and tries to make what she wants happen in imitation of
Holy Will. Internally she does this primarily through repression, the defense mechanism of this type,
in which she simply pushes out of consciousness anything that - doesn’t fit the image. Critical
perceptions and negative feelings about esteemed others, self-centered thoughts and impulses, as well
as neediness and her secret sense of specialness are pushed out of awareness. It is not that these
contents disappear, much as a Two would wish it were so; if they don’t arise to consciousness, they
appear in dreams, psychosomatic conditions, and neurotic symptoms such as anxiety, sleeplessness,
and so on. Although it takes tremendous psychic energy to keep the forbidden contents out of
consciousness, the alternative is worse: it often brings up acute anxiety for a Two to expose to herself
and others thoughts and feelings that do not fit with her idea of being a loving and lovable person.
Naranjo initially saw Twos as the classic Freudian hysterics, but that psychological term has now
fallen out of favor and histrionic has taken its place. Freud’s observation about hysterics is that their
sexuality is deeply repressed because of oedipal conflicts, and the result is psychosomatic symptoms,
what he called fugue states, and other dissociative mental states. Subsequent psychologists have
defined the hysterical character as a person who is “histrionically exhibitionistic, seductive, labile in
mood, and prone to act out oedipal fantasies, yet fearful of sexuality and inhibited in action,”7 an
accurate description of a Two.
Twos repress what they feel and anesthetize themselves to their own impulses, particularly sexual
ones, and the result is a kind of psychic pressure cooker: their emotions are dramatic and their
sexuality leaks out in seductive behavior and appearance. Female Twos tend to dress provocatively
although they are not usually conscious of it. Despite the nonverbal come-on, Twos are uneasy and
nervous about the sexual act itself. They cry easily and copiously—more often with others than when
alone, unlike Fours—and have fits of temper, pique, and impatience when things aren’t going the way
they want them to. Despite the appearance of a lot of affect, Twos are hysterical in that they discharge
emotion rather than fully experiencing it—they tend to be emotionally expressive, demonstrative, and
effusive, yet are not deeply in touch with what they are feeling.
As hysterics, most Twos are nonintellectual, as Naranjo has said, but there is a whole category of
Twos who have highly developed minds and fit Wilhelm Reich’s description of the “big brain”
hysteric. This type of hysteric uses her mind defensively—or, as Elsworth Baker, psychiatrist and
Reichian therapist, says, “uses her intellect as a tall phallus to defend herself against all men.”8 While
Reich thought such hysterics were only female, I have known male Twos who also use their minds in
this defensive way, seducing with their intellect while at the same time preventing real contact.
Neediness, touched on above, deserves a special place in the disallowed emotional experiences for a
Two. Busy intuiting and filling the needs of others, two functions get served. First, a Two fulfills the
image of being a kind of human cornucopia, brimming over with help and resources for others; but
more important, she gets to keep out of consciousness her own gnawing inner sense of neediness and
helplessness. Her dependency on others is difficult to tolerate; she berates herself for feeling weak and
needy. Experiencing her needs, especially for love and attention, blows the bountiful image that she
relies on to get the affection she feels her survival requires, and it also reawakens the early deficits in
attunement that are unbearable memories to her. It is one of the experiences she most avoids, and so
we find neediness at Point Two on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10.
She cannot tolerate feeling deprived since this would bring her within dangerous proximity to her
inner sense of neediness. Because of this, Twos generally have poor impulse control and tend to
develop all sorts of addictive patterns such as overeating, alcoholism, shopping addictions, and
obsessive love relationships. In the personality’s imitation of Holy Freedom, Twos have little
tolerance for any sort of limitations, restrictions, regimens, et cetera, far preferring to throw all
practicality, reason, and caution to the wind in the quest to lead a glamorous and exciting life. A Two
usually appears falsely abundant, as Naranjo notes, even though she may be knee-deep in credit card
debt; and a life of excess seems to be her only acceptable standard of living. License, then, takes the
place of real freedom in the life of a Two and obscures the underlying neediness. This is another
aspect of her trap of freedom. As Naranjo says, “The affectionate and tender type II individual can
become a fury when not indulged and made to feel loved through pampering such as is characteristic
of a spoiled child.”9
She has difficulty tolerating delayed gratification, like buying that great dress or that classy pair of
shoes next month when she will actually have the money to pay for them, or not eating those pieces of
chocolate - every night since she is trying to lose a few pounds. Obviously because of her selfindulgent
tendency, her relationship to her body is affected: Twos often have weight problems. They
crave pleasure and tend to equate food with love, and have little endurance for the deprivation they
feel when limiting their food intake, and that’s much too sensible, anyway. Some Twos are a little or a
lot overweight; some—again, like Liz Taylor—have wild weight swings. For most, regardless of size,
food and intake of all sorts is an issue.
How others see her—particularly others whom she idealizes and looks up to—matters more to her
than anything else. To say that their opinion matters more than her own would be missing the point,
since she often does not have her own opinion because her sense of herself is so dependent on how
others see her. Her self-worth is fragile, resting to a great extent on whether that special other pays
attention to her or not. Quoting Horney:
A third typical feature is part of his general dependence upon others. This is his unconscious
tendency to rate himself by what others think of him. His self-esteem rises and falls with their
approval or disapproval, their affection or lack of it. Hence any rejection is actually catastrophic for
him. If someone fails to return an invitation he may be reasonable about it consciously, but in
accordance with the logic of the particular inner world in which he lives, the barometer of his selfesteem
drops to zero. In other words any criticism, rejection, or desertion is a terrifying danger, and
he may make the most abject effort to win back the regard of the person who has thus threatened him.
His offering of the other cheek is not occasioned by some mysterious “masochistic” drive but is the
only logical thing he can do on the basis of his inner premises.10
This need to be liked, desired, and not rejected makes it very difficult for a Two to tolerate others
being upset or angry at her, and also makes her repress her own negative feelings toward others.
Conflicts mean loss of love, and that would be intolerable. Rather than risk such a loss, she is
understanding and amenable, seeing the other person’s point of view and forgiving him, at least on the
surface, while inwardly noting and holding on to the offense. A Two may offer you her other cheek,
but eventually there will be a price to pay.
With her self-esteem dependent on how others feel about her and her central belief that she is not
lovable, she needs constant reassurances that she is indeed loved. With her perpetual sense of
inadequacy, she needs constant praise. Like a cat, the animal associated with this type, she wants her
back scratched and demands lots of stroking and enormous amounts of attention. Twos are attention
getters who often wear tinkling jewelry or noisy shoes and loudly sigh or weep in groups to draw
attention to themselves. They will often do whatever it takes to get noticed, even if the attention they
get is negative or brings notoriety. Monica Lewinsky, probably a Two, is a current case in point.
Also like a cat, she will walk all over you to get the attention she wants, although you would have a
difficult time getting a Two to acknowledge her self-referent behavior. Rather than asking directly for
attention and pats on the back, Twos give it in order to get it back. The credo of a Two could easily be
Jesus’ precept to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Twos lavish attention, love,
and flattery onto those they want to be loved by, in the hope that what is given will be returned in
kind. There is nothing selfless about what a Two gives. This becomes very obvious if you don’t fulfill
your end of the unspoken bargain: she will try to make you feel guilty and will accuse you of
exploiting her generosity and of using her, and will turn on you with venom and hatred.
Like the proverbial Jewish mother, Twos feed you chicken soup laden with plenty of adoring
schmaltz whether you are hungry or not. But it comes with strings of obligation and guilt attached,
which run something like, “Look at all I do for you, and even though you never call me or think about
me, here I am, sacrificing for you out of the goodness of my heart. Don’t worry about me, I’ll be fine,”
accompanied by a loud sigh and mopping of the brow. Or, as the joke goes, how many Jewish
grandmothers (you can substitute Twos here) does it take to change a lightbulb? “None . . . I’ll just sit
here in the dark.” You don’t have to be Jewish, of course, to give in order to get, or to feel like a
martyred victim: there are versions of the same game in all ethnicities and religious groups.
Twos, then, manipulate through giving to get what they want. They feed you, flatter you, play to
you, cajole you, and as Naranjo used to say, unlike Sixes, who lick boots, Twos—to use a vulgar but
apt phrase—kiss ass. Their biggest manipulation, however, is being helpful. They will help you out
with whatever you need—whether you were aware of the need or not—whether it’s financial help,
doing something for you, listening to your troubles, matchmaking, counseling, cajoling, supporting
you, and so on. They try to insinuate themselves and make themselves indispensable to someone they
need in this way so that they will be needed in return.
Sexuality is the currency Twos often trade in, exchanging sexual favors for love. Twos frequently
equate their lovability and desirability with the number of sexual conquests they have made, and
female Twos often “collect famous cocks,” to use a sixties expression. Sex is used by Twos to fulfill
their need for attention rather than enjoyed as an expression of affection. As discussed earlier, while
Twos often project a very sexy image, they are rarely relaxed and open sexually, appearances to the
contrary.
Giving to get is inherently a frustrating way of operating since a Two’s real needs go
unacknowledged internally and so are unexpressed and ungratified externally. Using their image and
role to elicit love and admiration, Twos rarely feel loved for themselves. Using sexuality as a way of
making contact and gaining acceptance is inevitably unsatisfying. We have discussed the frustration
implicit in a Two’s quest for love, and it’s obvious that thwarting herself and remaining perpetually
unfulfilled are strong threads running through the life and psyche of a Two. The root is her turning
away from herself and depending on others for connection, which is an inherent frustration of her
personal unfoldment. For this reason on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions, Diagram 11, which
describes each type’s relationship to their soul, self-frustrating appears at Point Two.
Not only do Twos frustrate themselves but they can be profoundly frustrating to others. While
complaining bitterly to you about how miserable /frustrated/upset they are—and Twos do complain a
lot—any attempts on your part to offer a solution will usually be met with a reason why your
suggestion won’t work. Eric Berne, the founder of Transactional analysis, calls this kind of interaction
the “game” of “Why Don’t You—Yes But.” 11 Berne defines a game as a repetitive social interaction
in which the outcome is predictable and fulfills a motive other than what is being explicitly discussed.
The object here is to prove that no suggestion will work, and like a mild projective identification, this
game makes the other person feel as helpless, hopeless, and frustrated as the Two feels internally. On
a deeper level, if a Two is not taking issue at something, i.e., pitting her will against something, she
would lose her sense of who she is. Some degree of negativity, oppositionality, and disgruntlement is
therefore necessary for a Two to maintain her sense of self.
The passion of Ennea-type Two is pride, as mentioned earlier, as we see on the Enneagram of
Passions in Diagram 2. It is not real self-esteem and an inner sense of self-worth but rather what
Horney calls “neurotic pride.” It is not based on real abilities or achievements but is an inflated sense
of self that is compensatory for the inner feeling of being unlovable and not valuable in herself. Twos
believe they are special—both especially gifted, talented, loving, giving, and so on—but also
especially complicated, neurotic, troubled, put-upon, and so forth. So the prideful self-inflation is both
about their positive as well as their negative qualities. They are larger than life, different from
ordinary people. They are capable of more. They can do more, accomplish more, feel more deeply,
care more, and so on. The other side is their belief that they are especially bad human beings, bigger
failures, more rejectable, more unlovable, and more unworthy than others. They are filled with their
own self-importance and often behave as though they were royalty, currying the admiration and praise
of others. Their pride lies in their puffed-up inner image of themselves—not for being who they are.
They are proud when they are indispensable to that prestigious other; they are proud when they are
sexually desired; they are proud when someone they value gives them special attention; they are proud
when they have given to others in superhuman ways and have behaved like a veritable Saint Teresa.
When their self-sacrifice is not acknowledged or when it is taken for granted, and when they are not
given the special treatment to which they feel entitled, or when they are not the center of attention,
Twos feel deeply hurt and humiliated.
A Two’s pride is not always visible. This is because there are two styles of Twos: those who
manifest the pride more overtly in a grandiose, exhibitionistic, pompous, and entitled manner; and the
more self-effacing type who present themselves in a more humble manner but whose pride is
nonetheless just below the surface.
The virtue associated with Point Two is humility, as we see on the Enneagram of Virtues in
Diagram 1. Ichazo defines humility as the “acceptance of the limits of the body, its capacities. The
intellect holds unreal beliefs about its own powers. The body knows precisely what it can and cannot
do. Humility in its largest sense is the knowledge of the true human position on the cosmic scale.” So
key to the working-through process for a Two is arriving at an objective sense of herself.
Developing humility means for a Two settling into herself first of all. Rather than orienting herself
outward—trying to please, reacting to and responding to others—she needs to turn her attention
inward. Since Twos seem so demanding and so self-referential, it may sound ironic that what she
really needs to do is to focus on herself and give herself the attention she craves from others, but it is
the only way she will ever truly get the contact she craves. Focusing on herself entails getting in touch
with what is truly going on inside under the blather of hysterical emotions and the exciting events and
crises in her life. So she must slow down her frenzy of activity and her flurry of emotion and sense
deeply into herself, getting in touch with what she is actually experiencing. Although the emotions of
a Two can be quite dramatic, she is not really deeply feeling them, as discussed earlier, and fully
experiencing them is necessary for her to develop an authentic sense of self. In the same vein, actually
sensing her body and feeling where its edges are is extremely important for a Two to develop a real
sense of where she leaves off and where her inflated self-image begins.
As she settles into herself, she will see that she is constantly comparing herself to her all-loving and
all-giving idealized self-image and either rejecting herself when she doesn’t measure up or puffing
herself up with pride when she does. She will need to acknowledge her pride and sense of specialness
—not an easy thing for a Two to do. She will get in touch with how her superego continuously rejects
how she is, both inwardly and outwardly, if she does not conform to the grand image it demands she
live up to—and how it usually doesn’t. She needs to see how much her self-assessment shifts
depending upon whether she feels loved or rejected by that significant person in her life, and that
fundamentally she has little self-love and self-acceptance. She will see that she is so sensitive to
rejection from others because it supports her own self-rejection, and she needs to understand
psychodynamically how this way of relating to herself resulted from her early childhood conditioning.
She will see that this internal dynamic is pitting herself against her reality, and rather than this
willfulness changing her or freeing her, it only makes her suffer terribly. Part of the key to being
willing to defend against her superego and beginning to accept herself lies in experiencing directly
how painful and hurtful this dynamic is.
The more she gets out from under her superego and opens to her inner reality, the more she will see
that she is human and that both her capacities and her limits do not determine her value or her lack
thereof. She will be able to accept what she is truly capable of and what she isn’t, what she is really
experiencing and what she would like to be experiencing, and will cease feeling subhuman and having
to compensate for it by acting in superhuman ways. She needs to understand that she is lovable simply
for who she is, not for what she can do for others. This will lead to an honest sense of what she truly
wishes and doesn’t wish to do for others, rather than feeling obligated and guilt ridden if she is not
being there for - everyone. It will also lead to knowing and accepting what her limits are physically,
energetically, psychically, and in honoring them, learning to feel comfortable with saying no to others.
It also entails seeing that her lack of inner limits, which she has called freedom, is simply license
and in fact imprisons her. She needs to see how much she is a slave to her desires, her likes and
dislikes, how difficult it is to say no to gratifying them even if it puts her in financial, physical, or
emotional jeopardy. She needs to see that being realistic about how much money she has or when her
belly is actually full or whether she really needs another new outfit does not make life dull, boring,
and unromantic but in fact provides the ground for her to do things that are truly liberating and
meaningful in her life.
Humility means taking care of herself and giving attention to herself in a pragmatic way, and
instead of seeing this result in her becoming selfish, which she often fears, she will find that she
becomes more and more centered within herself. The more seated in herself she becomes, the more
she can accept, surrender to, and flow with her inner reality, and the freer she becomes of her
historical self and of her dependency on others. The more she opens to herself, the more she will
accept others and truly be able to receive and give the love she has been so desperate for. She will be
able to let go of herself, truly surrendering to what is, and in this, becoming one with her deepest
nature. She will know herself to be one with Being, a drop of sweet honey, melted in ecstatic union
with the Divine.




(Actually, I was going to print these all off because I'm ok with wasting ink to avoid reading things on screen but my printer freaked out and developed incontinence and has been printing just a page at a time randomly and now my dad thinks I'm a weird hippie ink-waster (cause frankly sentences like ' She will know herself to be one with Being, a drop of sweet honey, melted in ecstatic union
with the Divine.' do look bizarre out of context) and it's been a whole embarrassing debacle that I shall never live down but...yeah, I have the links saved, most of them at least.

I just hope the 2 parts don't print, I don't need my family holding the keys to my soul))

But about the other thing...(I was going to go to sleep but I logged on to write this before I did fall asleep and lose my clarity), my Fe is so damn useless, it's been the source of all my problems. It's so needy, it needs an emotional network, it feels cold doing things, it's just...in the way. I want a way to just stun it, make it go away for a year or so, then reactivate. I need to reach a basic level of success, I feel I could do so if I just didn't have Fe? How do I keep my Fe happy and just use whatever my N-S pair is +Ti to find my place in the world?


----------



## ElliCat

Oswin said:


> (Actually, I was going to print these all off because I'm ok with wasting ink to avoid reading things on screen but my printer freaked out and developed incontinence and has been printing just a page at a time randomly and now my dad thinks I'm a weird hippie ink-waster (cause frankly sentences like ' She will know herself to be one with Being, a drop of sweet honey, melted in ecstatic union
> with the Divine.' do look bizarre out of context) and it's been a whole embarrassing debacle that I shall never live down but...yeah, I have the links saved, most of them at least.


That's hilarious!! I know my father would act in the same way, hahahaha. 

I copied and pasted them into a Word document to read later. I've skim-read all but the last few that were posted, as I've sorted them into proper paragraphs *twitches*. Doubt I'll end up printing them out though; I'm definitely a hippie anti-ink-and-paper waster. 



> But about the other thing...(I was going to go to sleep but I logged on to write this before I did fall asleep and lose my clarity), my Fe is so damn useless, it's been the source of all my problems. It's so needy, it needs an emotional network, it feels cold doing things, it's just...in the way. I want a way to just stun it, make it go away for a year or so, then reactivate. I need to reach a basic level of success, I feel I could do so if I just didn't have Fe? How do I keep my Fe happy and just use whatever my N-S pair is +Ti to find my place in the world?


It's funny you say that, because I've always looked at certain members of my family and thought my life would be so much _easier_ if I had've been Fe-dom/aux rather than Fi-dom! For all the problems I have with my mother, she just seems to be SO GOOD WITH PEOPLE (and yet so blind at the same time....). I mean, most people seem to feel at least pleasantly neutral towards me when we meet, but it's such an effort to read them and figure out the right things to do and say so that I can avoid causing trouble, and the social anxiety makes it ten times worse too, because I am always second-guessing myself.

I think your Fe puts you at an advantage in people-oriented jobs. Something that lets you regularly interact with people and organise things to their benefit. My mother is thriving in sales jobs - oddly, that didn't become a thing until middle age for her. Before then she was in an accountant's office, and then stopped working to have kids. But she's doing well now because she can tell people what they need for their benefit, and convince them that it's what they need.

That sort of confidence comes with years of practice though, I think. Of course a lot of young people feel unsure of themselves, and look at how many Fe users even on this thread doubt their own social abilities! But maybe plunging yourself into something people-oriented that lets you promote your values might be what you need to start gaining that confidence.

Or maybe that's too Fi-Ne. Harrumph. Let me think on that a bit more.


----------



## owlet

Sorry for mega-slow replies. I came second last in a Brawl tournament and had to cry in a corner (truthfully, I just slept for hours because social life is hard - had the best fight using Villager, anyway, so it was a win really).
@shinynotshiny I will get back to you on your 80Q questionnaire as soon as I can! I've started reading it and I'm glad you've made it so detailed. It's much more helpful than the usual replies.



ElliCat said:


> I hope you can find a way to make it work for you! Even if it's unpaid, it should be a good experience (and an excuse to spend some time elsewhere). What kind of work is it?
> 
> 
> Which ones are they again? I learned to use "eetou" and "anou" as fillers, but I can't think of anything else we were taught to use...
> 
> And filtering could be unvalued Ni. I also wondered about low Te, but I guess that wouldn't make sense if ISTP finds it relatively easy. Perhaps it could be put down to a few different functions.
> 
> 
> I don't know how it's going, to be honest. I don't get a lot of feedback so my natural tendency is to assume that I'm doing a terrible job. But I keep getting extra shifts so I guess they have to like something I'm doing! I'm just really regretting taking on these extra online courses (I only did them because I thought I'd have nothing to do over the summer holidays) but I guess it's too late to drop out. Even if it isn't, I don't think I could live with myself if I gave up now.
> 
> Good luck with your social engagements! I hate it when I accidentally put too much on my plate like that. Hopefully you'll have a few spare days after that to recover?
> 
> 
> Oh believe me, the intentions are definitely there! I don't understand people who don't see the big deal in being late all the time. I think it shows a certain kind of arrogance - like your time is so much more important than everyone else's.
> 
> It's been over 5 years since I was in London but I have an idea of what you mean. I thought it might've just been because we didn't know the city at all.
> 
> Ah, you don't have a smart phone either? I thought I was the only one! I don't really want to make the switch (I love my Blackberry knock-off's actual keyboard-keypad) but I think I'm going to have to eventually, especially if I'm going into business.
> 
> 
> Oh you're lucky! Our micromanager was a bit like that too, had very strong ideas on how we should do things, because if she was marking the assignment, that was how SHE would want it to be done... Even though the teacher had dropped numerous hints in class about how they wanted it to be done, and it wasn't at all like how this girl wanted to do things. Apparently I was the only one in the group who was smart enough to connect the dots, though? (Or maybe I was the only one listening...) I think she was an immature IxFP, that whole in-love-with-her-own-opinion thing, and over-reliance on "this is how I'd want it if I were in charge" and the hypercritical, controlling attitude under stress.
> 
> 
> Do you get used to it, the more you do it? That was the original perspective I took, at the beginning of working with that group - that it'd be a learning experience and that I needed to take myself out of my comfort zone. But I really didn't like what it did to me, and I'm not sure that there's any point perservering if I'm going to be that stressed and that mean when I am in charge.
> 
> 
> That's exactly what I think it is. Unfortunately no bucket of water, there was carpet all through the house. But I did fantasise about all kinds of different booby traps. Never found anything I liked enough though. :ghost2:
> 
> 
> Sometimes I hang clothes on the back of one of my chairs. I used to fold them and put them under the stairs but I was told it attracted dust. I'm not convinced but I don't mind having a small dedicated cupboard for them.
> 
> 
> I think the most important thing is to find out what the person wants and actually respect that. I personally like sharing but I'd hate to subject someone to that if they're not into it.
> 
> Having said that, I agree, it's difficult for me to share personal things with most other people too, so I'm easily discouraged. I'm weird though, it's either too closed off or too much info with me. I can never seem to strike the right balance.
> 
> 
> I already like your taste in ornaments.
> 
> 
> I know! There were two of them, too! And one used to very deliberately do her business in "public" spaces if the litter box was too dirty. She used to get into trouble for it by the stupid owners, and I felt so awful for her. I'd try to spend extra time and let her into my room to try to make up for it. Not that it had anything to do with me but I hope I gave her an extra bit of happiness, especially now that I'm sure she and her sister are living in filth again...
> 
> 
> Dammit you caught me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me too! It's been so long since I've read it and I'd totally forgotten about it. I did enjoy the movie too, thank you @_fair phantom_!


It would be working in a publishing house that does books and comics, for about 5 days. I really want to do it, but I'm not sure if I can say I will when I'm waiting for a call about a job application... It's a head vs heart moment.

I mean things like 'to omou', 'kamoshirenai', 'tabun' and 'no you na ki ga suru' (writing on my English keyboard for that was weird), so things like 'I think' or 'I feel that' or 'maybe'. Eto and anou had a little difference I found interesting - eto is for if you're thinking of what to say and anou is trying to rephrase something.

I think it may very well be Ni - possibly not even undervalued. Maybe if it's in the top four, it just happens? Te likes efficiency, but it's not a filtering system, it just judges based on external criteria.

If you're not getting feedback, you're doing fine. They only usually talk to employees when they're doing something wrong, as far as I've seen. It's good to have some courses behind you, so I wouldn't regret it. Even if it's a lot of work now, it's only for a very limited period of time, then you can relax more. Of course, if it does get too much, just ask if you can postpone completing them until a later date.

I've managed to be talked into a friend coming over today when I met friends yesterday and am meeting them again tomorrow. I'm going to die. I do have some spare days after though, so I can just collapse then.

Yes! That was what bothered me with my friend. Especially when, at one point, he turned up three hours late when we were waiting in the snow for him...

London is just a maze city. It's why I didn't go to university there, even though it was a better university. I just couldn't deal with the crowds and the pollution and the scale of it.

Haha, I've managed to stay on a £50 phone for a couple of years now, and I only bought that because I needed 3G for when I was in Japan. Before that it was a phone I got free with a cheap sim - it was a qwerty like blackberries, but I actually don't mind using a touch screen now.

Wow that sounds awful... The issue with that is that trying to talk it out with them doesn;t usually work and they get offended you don't trust their opinion, even if you have contrary evidence.

Well, I did get used to it and I managed it by doing a lot of group meetings so we could all discuss things there and get rid of any issues as soon as we could. So mostly I ended up organising meetings and talking to that one girl trying to convince her to do it differently (which was like pulling teeth, because she genuinely didn't understand the difference between the two approaches, or that it was an issue she wasn't getting work in on time - so I ended up feeling bad for being annoyed at her, which stressed me out more). I don't like doing leadership stuff, but I can do it fairly well if I have to. It just tires me out.

Thinking up traps is fun, although I always get frustrated at having to consider it just because people can't respect my space. (Once a friend came into my room and lay down on my bed without asking and I almost dragged him off.)

Ah, it may attract dust. I know dust mites like fabric being left around (which sucks because I'm allergic to them). Maybe I'll try and hang my clothes up from now on...

No, no, I have the same thing. I don't realise I'm not sharing until people comment that I don't talk about myself (my friends also had a small campaign to get me to talk more photos with me in), or I realise I'm sharing too much and either way it makes me very uncomfortable.

I have a big mix of ornaments (most are picked up when I travel, but the dragons were an obsession when I was young).








People like that shouldn't have pets. I don't get why people can have children or animals when they can't look after them... But I can't think of a good way of resolving the problem. Even people having to get licenses for them would still leave gaps.

I knew it! :ghost3:



shinynotshiny said:


> Personally, I like androgyny :hearteyes:



I always wondered how people identified very strongly as one gender. It's a sort of mystical concept to me, which I can't really process in myself. My friend said she felt she was very much female, which I found surprising, because it's a social concept. (I'd be interested in any thoughts, as I was studying something on this in my last class.)

I was also curious about how developed people's inferior functions were. I know mine is quite developed, in that it gets a lot of use and it's not necessarily an unhealthy expression, but it does tire me out to use it all the time. I was thinking about trying to do a breakdown of Judging functions like I did with the Perceiving ones, but I'm not sure... Would it be helpful?


----------



## Dangerose

(Sorry, will respond to comments when I wake up, just want to publicly freak out a little so I can fall asleep) Under spoiler because this is just for my benefit:

* *





Because I just remembered that I owe maybe 5000 dollars in student loans on classes I never finished and the interest keeps increasing obviously and I have been ignoring all the emails but I have no money because I keep spending it; I could pay it off if I talked to my dad because he is the only one with access to my savings account but I don't want to do that b/c I think he thinks I've been saving money and also when I took out the loan I made a big deal about how I was going to be committed to the college thing and I could take care of my finances by myself and also this would lead to a conversation about my life plan and I don't want to talk about my life plan until I have one and my dad just makes me feel shitty about myself no matter what we're talking aboit and it will just make me shut down all hope and feel like I have to make sudden decisions so that he will not judge me too much and he always wants me to have clear answers about why I did this or what I want to do and I just don't have them so I make up stupid stuff and he sees me as like...April Ludgate from Parks and Rec and that's almost the opposite of who I am so it's impossible to talk to him about myself because he has no idea who I am which is sad because he's my father but like...

yeah so there's that but I've been avoiding thinking about that, I could easily pay back the debt myself if I saved a little money and/or got another job but I don't want it to be some random job like I have now, I want to be like...not just working for an old person who could die at any minute, but I have no training and no skills, like I turn 21 in August so I could lose like 50 pounds by then and then become a bartender and/or flight attendant, I feel like I should move to Seattle but that notion scares me because I don't want to live by myself and there are a lot of slums in Seattle and a couple of serial killers are from there and I guess I could move to Portland but I kinda hate the whole hipster Portlandia vibe and I guess I could stay where I live but this is not where I want to die, I want to just suddenly marry someone and then work everything out from there but I don't know anyone to marry and that's just an impractical and weird idea

I just want like a job that's fairly secure and a place to live so that the future isn't completely bleak and I don't understand why that's so hard or why I can't seem to make use of opportunities when they come along, like I dropped out of college three times, spent tens of thousands of dollars on classes I did not benefit from and I don't understand why that happened when I don't even believe college is necessary unless you want to be a doctor or something, and maybe I should have just decided to be a doctor at 16 and then done that, but it seems really difficult and I don't understand how anyone does that.

Anyways I'm rambling now, I'm not ranting at anything in particular but I'm angry at myself for being incapable of doing normal human things like going to college and getting a normal job, angry at the system for making college a necessity for having a normal job, a little angry at feminists for making women have to work and have careers suddenly like who even wants that was it really so bad to have men doing all the hard stuff for us, and just wishing something would fall out of the sky and show me which way to go.

That is all. Sorry for interrupting the joy of this thread with my self-absorbed ranting, I think it was a mistake to activate my Ni which I have a feeling is what I use and what I accidentally activated, I would like to go back to blindly ignoring the future in a lovely Fe-Se loop plz


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> (Sorry, will respond to comments when I wake up, just want to publicly freak out a little so I can fall asleep) Under spoiler because this is just for my benefit:
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because I just remembered that I owe maybe 5000 dollars in student loans on classes I never finished and the interest keeps increasing obviously and I have been ignoring all the emails but I have no money because I keep spending it; I could pay it off if I talked to my dad because he is the only one with access to my savings account but I don't want to do that b/c I think he thinks I've been saving money and also when I took out the loan I made a big deal about how I was going to be committed to the college thing and I could take care of my finances by myself and also this would lead to a conversation about my life plan and I don't want to talk about my life plan until I have one and my dad just makes me feel shitty about myself no matter what we're talking aboit and it will just make me shut down all hope and feel like I have to make sudden decisions so that he will not judge me too much and he always wants me to have clear answers about why I did this or what I want to do and I just don't have them so I make up stupid stuff and he sees me as like...April Ludgate from Parks and Rec and that's almost the opposite of who I am so it's impossible to talk to him about myself because he has no idea who I am which is sad because he's my father but like...
> 
> yeah so there's that but I've been avoiding thinking about that, I could easily pay back the debt myself if I saved a little money and/or got another job but I don't want it to be some random job like I have now, I want to be like...not just working for an old person who could die at any minute, but I have no training and no skills, like I turn 21 in August so I could lose like 50 pounds by then and then become a bartender and/or flight attendant, I feel like I should move to Seattle but that notion scares me because I don't want to live by myself and there are a lot of slums in Seattle and a couple of serial killers are from there and I guess I could move to Portland but I kinda hate the whole hipster Portlandia vibe and I guess I could stay where I live but this is not where I want to die, I want to just suddenly marry someone and then work everything out from there but I don't know anyone to marry and that's just an impractical and weird idea
> 
> I just want like a job that's fairly secure and a place to live so that the future isn't completely bleak and I don't understand why that's so hard or why I can't seem to make use of opportunities when they come along, like I dropped out of college three times, spent tens of thousands of dollars on classes I did not benefit from and I don't understand why that happened when I don't even believe college is necessary unless you want to be a doctor or something, and maybe I should have just decided to be a doctor at 16 and then done that, but it seems really difficult and I don't understand how anyone does that.
> 
> Anyways I'm rambling now, I'm not ranting at anything in particular but I'm angry at myself for being incapable of doing normal human things like going to college and getting a normal job, angry at the system for making college a necessity for having a normal job, a little angry at feminists for making women have to work and have careers suddenly like who even wants that was it really so bad to have men doing all the hard stuff for us, and just wishing something would fall out of the sky and show me which way to go.
> 
> That is all. Sorry for interrupting the joy of this thread with my self-absorbed ranting, I think it was a mistake to activate my Ni which I have a feeling is what I use and what I accidentally activated, I would like to go back to blindly ignoring the future in a lovely Fe-Se loop plz


Are they federal loans? You could apply for income based repayment (I think they might call it income driven repayment now?)


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I think one of the keys is training your inferior function. Recreational activities that utilize it are a good way to do that without draining oneself out or getting stressed. I try to use all four functions in my decision making process. If I think I'm going into a loop or getting in the grip I try to activate my aux function or dom function as necessary. Personally, I also think people can benefit from engaging shadow functions—at least recreationally—because most people will encounter some situation where their four functions aren't well suited to the task.
> 
> I think everyone benefits from exercise when done right (in accordance with doctor recommendations) and in moderation. That's a human thing, not a function thing. Unless everyone in studies showing the benefits of exercise happened to be an NJ or Sp, which I doubt)


What kind of recreational activities?

I noticed there are different loop behaviours depending on the description. Fi-Ni can be either sensitive to criticism or something like that or they fall into an existential crisis because they feel bad and they use Ni to back it up about the future and ignore Se (which was the loop I think I fell into)


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> What kind of recreational activities?
> 
> I noticed there are different loop behaviours depending on the description. Fi-Ni can be either sensitive to criticism or something like that or they fall into an existential crisis because they feel bad and they use Ni to back it up about the future and ignore Se (which was the loop I think I fell into)


It depends on the inferior function. For example: inferior Ti: riddles, logic puzzles, inferior Se: a sport, or art, or music. Inferior Fi: poetry maybe? I think @angelcat made a post about this on her funky mbti tumblr?


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> I balked at being an image type, because the descriptions made everything seem so _put on_, and I don't relate to putting on an image per se. But I thought about it and realised that I am focused on how I come across to people - for me it's more that I want what other people see to reflect what's on the inside. It bothers me a lot when I feel I'm failing in that area. So I guess that's how I reconcile my own image-type-ness with valuing authenticity.
> 
> From what I understand, an unhealthy 3 might start taking on aspects of Type 9 (disintegration) - apathy, etc. A healthy 3 grows towards 6 and I guess becomes a bit more cooperative, rather than letting themelves get carried away by their own goals and need to be successful. Did you see the extract from Maitri that Blue Flare posted a while ago? It might have been while you were gone...


I don't particularly care how I come across... Or I do care but I don't dwell much on it. I know how I translate my inner world to the outer world is imperfect but if I show enough data then maybe they understand. 

I don't know. I've always understood when I was misunderstood and accepted it. Being misunderstood is not a big deal for me. Maybe it'll become a bigger deal when I care more. I've never tried to show people who I am because I sense it and if they have a different interpretion then lol. See how far that gets you. Self correction

I didn't see it sorry ><


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> (Sorry, will respond to comments when I wake up, just want to publicly freak out a little so I can fall asleep) Under spoiler because this is just for my benefit:
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because I just remembered that I owe maybe 5000 dollars in student loans on classes I never finished and the interest keeps increasing obviously and I have been ignoring all the emails but I have no money because I keep spending it; I could pay it off if I talked to my dad because he is the only one with access to my savings account but I don't want to do that b/c I think he thinks I've been saving money and also when I took out the loan I made a big deal about how I was going to be committed to the college thing and I could take care of my finances by myself and also this would lead to a conversation about my life plan and I don't want to talk about my life plan until I have one and my dad just makes me feel shitty about myself no matter what we're talking aboit and it will just make me shut down all hope and feel like I have to make sudden decisions so that he will not judge me too much and he always wants me to have clear answers about why I did this or what I want to do and I just don't have them so I make up stupid stuff and he sees me as like...April Ludgate from Parks and Rec and that's almost the opposite of who I am so it's impossible to talk to him about myself because he has no idea who I am which is sad because he's my father but like...
> 
> yeah so there's that but I've been avoiding thinking about that, I could easily pay back the debt myself if I saved a little money and/or got another job but I don't want it to be some random job like I have now, I want to be like...not just working for an old person who could die at any minute, but I have no training and no skills, like I turn 21 in August so I could lose like 50 pounds by then and then become a bartender and/or flight attendant, I feel like I should move to Seattle but that notion scares me because I don't want to live by myself and there are a lot of slums in Seattle and a couple of serial killers are from there and I guess I could move to Portland but I kinda hate the whole hipster Portlandia vibe and I guess I could stay where I live but this is not where I want to die, I want to just suddenly marry someone and then work everything out from there but I don't know anyone to marry and that's just an impractical and weird idea
> 
> I just want like a job that's fairly secure and a place to live so that the future isn't completely bleak and I don't understand why that's so hard or why I can't seem to make use of opportunities when they come along, like I dropped out of college three times, spent tens of thousands of dollars on classes I did not benefit from and I don't understand why that happened when I don't even believe college is necessary unless you want to be a doctor or something, and maybe I should have just decided to be a doctor at 16 and then done that, but it seems really difficult and I don't understand how anyone does that.
> 
> Anyways I'm rambling now, I'm not ranting at anything in particular but I'm angry at myself for being incapable of doing normal human things like going to college and getting a normal job, angry at the system for making college a necessity for having a normal job, a little angry at feminists for making women have to work and have careers suddenly like who even wants that was it really so bad to have men doing all the hard stuff for us, and just wishing something would fall out of the sky and show me which way to go.
> 
> That is all. Sorry for interrupting the joy of this thread with my self-absorbed ranting, I think it was a mistake to activate my Ni which I have a feeling is what I use and what I accidentally activated, I would like to go back to blindly ignoring the future in a lovely Fe-Se loop plz


Everything will work out eventually n.n and I think it's perfectly fine to be a housewife or househusband. I don't think all feminists want women working but just the opportunity to. Some man will probably want a housewife still ^^ that's not the point but I just wanted to say there's no shame in wanting what you want.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Everything will work out eventually n.n and I think it's perfectly fine to be a housewife or househusband. I don't think all feminists want women working but just the opportunity to. Some man will probably want a housewife still ^^ that's not the point but I just wanted to say there's no shame in wanting what you want.


As a feminist I have no issue with women choosing to be housewives. I just want women to have the opportunity for other things, and to be free from coercion (and I want to destroy the stigma for stay-at-home fathers).


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> It depends on the inferior function. For example: inferior Ti: riddles, logic puzzles, inferior Se: a sport, or art, or music. Inferior Fi: poetry maybe? I think @angelcat made a post about this on her funky mbti tumblr?


What do you do for being an ENFP? 

I've met only one househusband and he was a lawyer before you know. The lawyer thing changed and so he stays at home and his sucessful wife is the breadwinner 8D

It bothers me that "strong" feminine characters have masculine traits like Korra and Buffy? So violent. I mean that's fine to show diversity but seeing "strong" feminine characters that like traditional feminine things is great too

Or seeing "strong" feminine males.


----------



## Bugs

fair phantom said:


> As a feminist I have no issue with women choosing to be housewives. I just want women to have the opportunity for other things, and to be free from coercion (and I want to destroy the stigma for stay-at-home fathers).


Why don't feminists just change their label to humanist if they claim to want equality across the board. Feminism sounds divisive and exclusive as a name.


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> Why don't feminists just change their label to humanist if they claim to want equality across the board. Feminism sounds divisive and exclusive as a name.


Because humanism is a different thing about people reaching their potential that occured during the Renaissance and kind of was against feminism?


----------



## fair phantom

Bugs said:


> Why don't feminists just change their label to humanist if they claim to want equality across the board. Feminism sounds divisive and exclusive as a name.





> This question implies that one must be either one or the other. People and philosophies are far more complicated than that. A feminist may also be both a humanist and an equalist.
> 
> There’s no law that says only one box can be ticked here, and it’s hugely important not to get sucked into thinking that one choice excludes the others. A major reason that most populist debate in the corporate media (and in online forums too) is a pitiful sham is that way too many questions are argued on an either/or basis, instead of acknowledging the probability of a both/and stance. The either/or method of framing a debate is technically referred to as a “false dilemma” [more], and is one example of a logical fallacy.
> 
> As to why feminism requires a distinct agenda within the equalist movements? The special and distinct problem of misogyny both oppressing and directly harming women, pure and simple. Unless misogyny is directly addressed and acted against, general equalist activism will not be enough.


 (source)


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> With marriage equality ruling, U.S. Supreme Court places America on right side of history | The Kansas City Star The Kansas City Star
> 
> In the entire country, gays can marry 8D


Do not call me _gays_~

Nah, I don't care anymore enguin:




Blue Flare said:


> To be honest I don't want to give you a bullshit reply as I don't have enough facts for that. The only clear thing is you likely have an atypical sociotype + enneagram combination that makes you hard to read well.


Enneagram aside, I don't relate to the function pairings/orderings. I don't trust many people here to read me anymore. Can form opinions on a 21Q, but not an 80Q? Either that's incompetence or fun.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Do not call me _gays_~
> 
> Nah, I don't care anymore enguin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enneagram aside, I don't relate to the function pairings/orderings. I don't trust many people here to read me anymore. Can form opinions on a 21Q, but not an 80Q? Either that's incompetence or fun.


I'm confused sorry ><


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> I'm confused sorry ><


About what...?

Generally speaking, I don't like when people use the term "gays" or "the gays" to refer to the LGBTQ community. If it's for fun, sure, but not in average conversation.

But now it doesn't matter much because someone somewhere is crying about the gays getting married and lol :tears_of_joy:


----------



## 68097

I was going to fill out a socionics questionnaire but... I read this.

Yeah, that's pretty much me. No point in asking.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> About what...?
> 
> Generally speaking, I don't like when people use the term "gays" or "the gays" to refer to the LGBTQ community. If it's for fun, sure, but not in average conversation.
> 
> But now it doesn't matter much because someone somewhere is crying about the gays getting married and lol :tears_of_joy:


Ah sorry. 

Hm. But I wasn't referring to the community, I was referring to people who engage in same-sex relationships?

I'm not trying to argue but I just want to see why exactly I was wrong. Correction without understanding why is not really correction


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I was going to fill out a socionics questionnaire but... I read this.
> 
> Yeah, that's pretty much me. No point in asking.


Archetype Alexandre Dumas, that's someone to look up to, especially for a writer. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I was going to fill out a socionics questionnaire but... I read this.
> 
> Yeah, that's pretty much me. No point in asking.


Oh? You mean relate to the description/s? That's possible?


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> I was going to fill out a socionics questionnaire but... I read this.
> 
> Yeah, that's pretty much me. No point in asking.



You get an ego stroke though! 8D

Maybe I'll fulfill out a Socionics form because my Ennegram thread is a dud


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Archetype Alexandre Dumas, that's someone to look up to, especially for a writer. :wink:


I hear he got paid by the LINE, so that's why his characters go:

"Where are you off to, fine sir?"

"To Paris!"

"To Paris?"

"To Paris!"

"Why are you off to Paris?"

LOL


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Ah sorry.
> 
> Hm. But I wasn't referring to the community, I was referring to people who engage in same-sex relationships?
> 
> I'm not trying to argue but I just want to see why exactly I was wrong. Correction without understanding why is not really correction


You weren't "wrong." It's just a term some people don't like for themselves.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I hear he got paid by the LINE, so that's why his characters go:
> 
> "Where are you off to, fine sir?"
> 
> "To Paris!"
> 
> "To Paris?"
> 
> "To Paris!"
> 
> "Why are you off to Paris?"
> 
> LOL


Huh, it's a reference I actually don't get. Usually happens with music, not books. Bravo, madam. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh? You mean relate to the description/s? That's possible?


Yep. Pretty much. The aux-Fe in particular.



Curiphant said:


> You get an ego stroke though! 8D


Do I need one?



Barakiel said:


> Huh, it's a reference I actually don't get. Usually happens with music, not books. Bravo, madam. :laughing:


Many famous authors of that period were paid by the word -- such as Dickens. That's why his stories are so long. Dumas was paid by the line, not the word, so his stories tend to have more lines in them with fewer words. In general. 

Then again, it's probably a myth. But it is quite funny.

It's like saying -- I'll pay you for one page so the person writes a poem of four words per stanza that goes down the length of the page, rather than 8 paragraphs of text.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Many famous authors of that period were paid by the word -- such as Dickens. That's why his stories are so long. Dumas was paid by the line, not the word, so his stories tend to have more lines in them with fewer words. In general.
> 
> Then again, it's probably a myth. But it is quite funny.
> 
> It's like saying -- I'll pay you for one page so the person writes a poem of four words per stanza that goes down the length of the page, rather than 8 paragraphs of text.


Huh, wouldn't he write poems exclusively, then? I suppose that would cut down on his creativity, but poems, they're much shorter in word limit, but they're also like two pages per poem. I do question why someone would pay a writer by the line, perhaps they didn't want to count the words. :wink:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Huh, wouldn't he write poems exclusively, then? I suppose that would cut down on his creativity, but poems, they're much shorter in word limit, but they're also like two pages per poem. I do question why someone would pay a writer by the line, perhaps they didn't want to count the words. :wink:


Not every writer is a poet, or even _likes_ poetry.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Not every writer is a poet, or even _likes_ poetry.


I know, but it would give him more money, so that's always good. I don't really write stories, just to put down ideas, but I despise poetry, mostly through 5 years of English classes that they drilled it into your head. :dry:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> I know, but it would give him more money, so that's always good. I don't really write stories, just to put down ideas, but I despise poetry, mostly through 5 years of English classes that they drilled it into your head. :dry:


Ah, but a true artist does not create merely for profit. Money is good, but I'd rather write what I love because anything else seems a betrayal of my passions.

I don't like poetry either. Most of it is quite sentimental and emphasizes romance, and I've never cared about that. The movie "Bright Star" is all about poets, and poetry, and I just ... really wanted to slap everyone in it.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Ah, but a true artist does not create merely for profit. Money is good, but I'd rather write what I love because anything else seems a betrayal of my passions.
> 
> I don't like poetry either. Most of it is quite sentimental and emphasizes romance, and I've never cared about that. The movie "Bright Star" is all about poets, and poetry, and I just ... really wanted to slap everyone in it.


To me, it's more a hobby. If someone actually wanted to pay for my stories, I'd first ask them what they're smoking, because they're *not* that good, really. And I've found that my passions do not match up to what reality wants. :wink:

Poetry, to me, seems like a watered down version of stories, very Ni in that the meaning still holds, but all of the substance has gone. I can appreciate some poems that I can get, probably due to lower Ni, but most of them... no. :frustrating:


----------



## ElliCat

YAY YOU GO USA!!

*waits for own country to catch up*



laurie17 said:


> Sorry for mega-slow replies. I came second last in a Brawl tournament and had to cry in a corner (truthfully, I just slept for hours because social life is hard - had the best fight using Villager, anyway, so it was a win really).


:hug:



> It would be working in a publishing house that does books and comics, for about 5 days. I really want to do it, but I'm not sure if I can say I will when I'm waiting for a call about a job application... It's a head vs heart moment.


Oh no, not them!! I don't like those moments! I hope the call comes so that you can be put out of your misery either way.



> I mean things like 'to omou', 'kamoshirenai', 'tabun' and 'no you na ki ga suru' (writing on my English keyboard for that was weird), so things like 'I think' or 'I feel that' or 'maybe'. Eto and anou had a little difference I found interesting - eto is for if you're thinking of what to say and anou is trying to rephrase something.


Ugh yes I know, I thought the same thing as I was typing, I'm so used to writing them in hiragana that roumaji looks plain wrong. I do remember using a lot of "to omou" and "tabun" (surprise surprise) but I don't remember "kamoshirenai" or "no you ga ki ga suru". I don't think of them as indefinite articles, which is probably why I got confused. My understanding is more along the lines of Spanish "uno/una/unos/unas" or French "un/une/des". 

I think I might have picked up on that distinction, although I wasn't taught it formally per se. Great to know, just in case I ever need to pick up on it again!



> I think it may very well be Ni - possibly not even undervalued. Maybe if it's in the top four, it just happens? Te likes efficiency, but it's not a filtering system, it just judges based on external criteria.


You're probably right. I was thinking more of the actual culling part, hence the judging focus, but then I guess it's not going to be of much help if the perceiving function/s can't narrow its vision enough. 

One thing's for sure... Ne would have to be the worst perceiving function for that. 



> If you're not getting feedback, you're doing fine. They only usually talk to employees when they're doing something wrong, as far as I've seen. It's good to have some courses behind you, so I wouldn't regret it. Even if it's a lot of work now, it's only for a very limited period of time, then you can relax more. Of course, if it does get too much, just ask if you can postpone completing them until a later date.


Yeah that's been my experience as well. I really need to learn to calm down and not be so hard on myself.

I think the courses will be useful in the future, but the teacher annoys me so I'm not enjoying the subject as much as I thought I would. It actually ends in a bit over a week and I managed to finish watching all the videos today (two whole days early!) so I just have the main assignments for each subject to go. I have a couple of days off during the week so hopefully I have the self-control to finish them then!

In theory I could probably just not do them, or talk to the teacher about getting an extension, but I'd kind of rather just get it over and done with. Especially seeing as half my problem is simply laziness...



> I've managed to be talked into a friend coming over today when I met friends yesterday and am meeting them again tomorrow. I'm going to die. I do have some spare days after though, so I can just collapse then.


Don't die! You have so much to live for! THINK OF THIS THREAD!!



> Yes! That was what bothered me with my friend. Especially when, at one point, he turned up three hours late when we were waiting in the snow for him...


Oh that is NOT ON. 

Back in high school I had a friend who was chronically late. No time management whatsoever. Used to regularly sweet-talk teachers into giving them extensions and everything. We got to the point where we'd tell them we'd be there an hour earlier than we intended, just so they'd be nearly ready when we picked them up.



> London is just a maze city. It's why I didn't go to university there, even though it was a better university. I just couldn't deal with the crowds and the pollution and the scale of it.


I can sympathise! Honestly I could probably deal with the maziness of it all, but the crowds and the pollution would be definite minuses in my book. I grew up in a rural area so a lot of my neighbours and acquaintances also rejected better-name universities in bigger cities, in favour of smaller unis in smaller communities. 



> Haha, I've managed to stay on a £50 phone for a couple of years now, and I only bought that because I needed 3G for when I was in Japan. Before that it was a phone I got free with a cheap sim - it was a qwerty like blackberries, but I actually don't mind using a touch screen now.


The discomfort of using a touch screen is my only real barrier to wanting a smart phone. I already make too many typos and I know it's worse with a touch screen! Plus the feeling of swiping my fingers across the screen weirds me out. But everyone thinks I'm crazy. :chargrined:



> Wow that sounds awful... The issue with that is that trying to talk it out with them doesn;t usually work and they get offended you don't trust their opinion, even if you have contrary evidence.


Yes! And I haven't had this problem with only her, either. Kinda has me at the point where I'm questioning my own communication skills, but I've just been talking with one of my sisters and it seems like this kind of tunnel vision might actually be quite common.

The downside of having the freedom to choose who I spend my time around. I forget how terrible people can be.



> Well, I did get used to it and I managed it by doing a lot of group meetings so we could all discuss things there and get rid of any issues as soon as we could. So mostly I ended up organising meetings and talking to that one girl trying to convince her to do it differently (which was like pulling teeth, because she genuinely didn't understand the difference between the two approaches, or that it was an issue she wasn't getting work in on time - so I ended up feeling bad for being annoyed at her, which stressed me out more). I don't like doing leadership stuff, but I can do it fairly well if I have to. It just tires me out.


You give me hope! But I think you're a better person than I am. Nice that you can claim leadership skills at any rate, even if it's not a lot of fun for you.



> Thinking up traps is fun, although I always get frustrated at having to consider it just because people can't respect my space. (Once a friend came into my room and lay down on my bed without asking and I almost dragged him off.)


.... Ew.












> Ah, it may attract dust. I know dust mites like fabric being left around (which sucks because I'm allergic to them). Maybe I'll try and hang my clothes up from now on...


Dust mites was one of my mother's little paranoia thingies when we were young. Probably because of the asthma.

I think just existing here is enough for dust to gather. I've never had this in any other country I've been in. Like you vacuum one day and the next you start seeing the dust bunnies creep in. It's like an invasion.












> No, no, I have the same thing. I don't realise I'm not sharing until people comment that I don't talk about myself (my friends also had a small campaign to get me to talk more photos with me in), or I realise I'm sharing too much and either way it makes me very uncomfortable.


Phew! Well I don't mind, if people overshare with me. I just feel awkward when it's me opening myself up.



> I have a big mix of ornaments (most are picked up when I travel, but the dragons were an obsession when I was young).
> View attachment 350554


Yes that is perfect! I have a similar collection but most are packed away in cardboard boxes at my parents' place. :blue: Haven't been able to bring them all over with me. 



> People like that shouldn't have pets. I don't get why people can have children or animals when they can't look after them... But I can't think of a good way of resolving the problem. Even people having to get licenses for them would still leave gaps.


I wholeheartedly agree. I just don't know how to enforce it. Taking tests isn't foolproof, and besides I feel a bit weird about having some external authority dictate whether someone else can reproduce/get a pet. But yes, I feel pain for all the children and animals who live in households that should never have gotten them.



> I always wondered how people identified very strongly as one gender. It's a sort of mystical concept to me, which I can't really process in myself. My friend said she felt she was very much female, which I found surprising, because it's a social concept. (I'd be interested in any thoughts, as I was studying something on this in my last class.)


I personally understand it, but I can also understand why some people might not feel strongly towards one gender or another, and it bothers me when some other people get all judgemental and dismiss it purely because _they_ don't feel that way.

I guess I'd explain my own gender identity like, I'm happy to have a female body, and my "soul" (or "essence" or whatever it is) understands itself to be female. But what I don't get is the whole "male/female brain" thing. It weirds me out every time I hear or read it. I don't think my brain has a gender. I think my brain is just a brain. At least it identifies as gender neutral.



> I was also curious about how developed people's inferior functions were. I know mine is quite developed, in that it gets a lot of use and it's not necessarily an unhealthy expression, but it does tire me out to use it all the time. I was thinking about trying to do a breakdown of Judging functions like I did with the Perceiving ones, but I'm not sure... Would it be helpful?


I have no idea how developed mine is. Seems to be relative - sometimes I feel like I'm not terrible with it, but often I feel pretty inadequate. 



Curiphant said:


> I don't particularly care how I come across... Or I do care but I don't dwell much on it. I know how I translate my inner world to the outer world is imperfect but if I show enough data then maybe they understand.
> 
> I don't know. I've always understood when I was misunderstood and accepted it. Being misunderstood is not a big deal for me. Maybe it'll become a bigger deal when I care more. I've never tried to show people who I am because I sense it and if they have a different interpretion then lol. See how far that gets you. Self correction
> 
> I didn't see it sorry ><


I envy your attitude. It sounds much better than mine.

Here's 3:


* *




The quintessential image type, Threes are characterized by an overriding concern with how they
present themselves, how they look, and the impact that they have on others. This is the proverbial self-made man or woman, creating themselves and pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. They are chameleon-like, taking on the colorings needed to make a positive impression. It is often difficult to discern what they truly feel or even who they truly are, since they seem to become whoever they need to in order to present the image necessary to achieve the result that they wish. They tend to change their presentation depending upon the situation and who they are with, so that often others have very different experiences and impressions of the same person.

They are driven and goal oriented, and value success in the particular domain in which they are
invested more than anything. Achieving what they set out to do takes precedence over every other
concern, whether they be physical constraints, those of class or economic origin, or the feelings of
others or even of themselves. They often drive themselves mercilessly in their pursuit of
accomplishment, and may be perceived by others as ruthless, calculating, and possessing a steely
determination. Threes are pragmatic and matter-of-fact, doing whatever it takes to get the job done,
including using manipulation and deception. While sometimes consciously duplicitous, Threes often
do not know what is really true for them, since they often feel the emotions and have the attitude that they think is appropriate for their situation.

Threes are doers, and the perspective on reality that they are sensitive to—their Holy Idea—has to
do with activity. As with Point Six, there is more than one name for the Holy Idea associated with
Point Three on the enneagram. Two of them, Holy Law and Holy Harmony, are perceptions about
reality; and the third, Holy Hope, refers to the effect upon the soul as these understandings about
reality are integrated. All three nuances of this Holy Idea concern the dynamic aspect of Being, the
fact that it is not static but rather is ceaselessly unfolding, and this effulgence is the universe of which we are a part. This dimension of Being is called the Logos in the Diamond Approach. So this Idea is related to the functioning of reality and has many shades of meaning—more than most of the other points—which I will briefly describe. In a nutshell, this Idea tells us that reality as a unified whole is constantly unfolding and that the actions, changes, and movements of each of us are inseparable from the shifts of that wholeness. If we consciously participate in this ceaseless unfoldment, which means that if our fixations, which rigidify the soul, relax, our consciousness will naturally move deeper and deeper toward our depths, our essential nature; and we will experience more harmony, inner and outer. This progressive movement closer to the ultimate truth of our nature is the potentiality of the human soul.

Let us look at each of the particulars of this Idea in more detail. Holy Law is the understanding that
the universe as one whole and unified entity is constantly in a state of change. The perceptions that all manifestation is a unity and that all of us are ultimately different cells in the one body of the universe are the focus of the Holy Ideas of Points Eight and Five, Holy Truth and Holy Omniscience,
respectively. Here, at Point Three, we understand that this unity is always in motion and does not hold still. The whole substance of reality in all of its dimensions is perpetually in flux, like a great ocean whose surface is made up of the movement of many different waves and whose depths are made up of many currents. All of the shifts and movements of the various forms are part of the unfoldment of the whole.

This is a very difficult perception for most people to grasp. It challenges some of our fundamental
beliefs about ourselves, regardless of ennea-type. First of all, it challenges our notions of cause and
effect, since from the unobstructed view of Holy Law we see that nothing and no one is separately
affecting or making anything happen. Everything that happens is part of the fabric of the universe
unfurling itself. So nothing happens in isolation from the whole of that fabric, and no one initiates
action of her own accord, nor do we cause things to occur separately from the momentum of that
whole. It is easier to understand that we are inseparable from the oneness of the universe than it is to understand that we actually do nothing in isolation from the dynamism of the whole of reality. We will discuss this more a little further on.

Perceiving the dynamism of Being—the fact that it is a presence in constant flow—also challenges
our notion of time, something I will discuss more fully in Chapter 10 when we explore Holy Plan,
which deals with the pattern of this dynamism. Understanding Holy Law also calls into question any
of our notions of God as an entity outside the fabric of the universe, since clearly this is not possible.
It also shows us that it makes no sense to conceive of this separate entity, God, who at some point in
the distant past created the world. When we see that the universe is one whole thing that is constantly arising, we see that the creation is occurring all the time. This is also something I will discuss more fully in Chapter 10. Our ideas about life and death change if we understand Holy Law, as we see in the following quote of Almaas:
To understand that the totality of the universe is constantly renewing itself radically changes our
notion of death. Personal death is simply Being manifesting at one moment with a particular person as part of the picture, and in the next moment without that person. From this perspective, all the issues about death change character. Death disappears into the continual flow of unfolding, self-arising change.1

So all that exists is a manifestation of Being, forms arising and sinking back into the mystery of the
Absolute. Out of nothing, something arises. This is the creativity of Being, expressing Itself in all of
the forms of the world, including our own bodies and souls. Not only is Being manifesting Itself in all
of us and all that surrounds us but Holy Law tells us that It is also revealing Itself. All of the
loveliness of the physical world—all of the stars, galaxies, and planets, all of the beauties of nature,
and all of the creatures of the earth including ourselves—is Being revealing Itself in all of its
magnificence. Its inner nature displays Itself in all of its grandeur in the world of form. The world of
manifestation, then, is the expression of the constantly self-revealing creativity of Being.

When we perceive the harmonious interplay of all of manifestation, we are in touch with Holy
Harmony, the next nuance of this Idea. It tells us that what may appear as conflicts and incongruities
among the various parts of the whole that is the universe only look that way when seen from the
surface. Since the unfoldment of the universe is the movement and dynamism of a oneness, none of
the parts can be fundamentally at odds with each other. They are all part of the same harmonious
outpouring.

It also refers to the understanding that there is a magnetic pull upon the human soul which, left
unimpeded, will draw us toward the depths in which this unitive, and thus harmonious, functioning is apparent. If the soul is supported in developing and unfolding, in other words, it will naturally be
drawn toward its Essence, which is its inner truth. Spiritual development, then, is really a matter of
nondoing and of removing the obstacles and logjams that impede the flow of our souls. Most people
experience movement and change, but it usually stays within more or less narrow confines, as
discussed in the Introduction, which gives our lives a sense of staleness, sameness, and stuckness.
Expanding our consciousness, then, when seen from the angle of Point Three, is a matter of increasing the movement or the flow of our souls so that we experience more of the various dimensions of the universe. The final goal of spiritual work, then, is not a particular state but rather a capacity to move from one state to another freely and easily. This gives us a sense of momentum and of dynamism, reflecting that of Being as we attune to it.

The more we open to the flow of our souls, the more we experience our consciousness and in turn
our lives as more harmonious. This brings us to Holy Hope, which describes the effect upon us of
integrating Holy Law and Holy Harmony. The closer we move toward our depths, the more we feel in
alignment with the universe, functioning harmoniously within its unfolding pattern. This proximity to
our deepest truth delights the heart since we are answering its call to connect with its greatest love.
Like an irresistibly attracted lover, the human soul is drawn like a magnet to its Beloved, Being. As
we move closer to It, the world we inhabit becomes one of beauty, grace, and harmony.

Another meaning of Holy Hope is that this innate pull to connect with and realize our True Nature is
humanity’s deepest potential and its salvation. To the extent that we are in contact with our depths, to that extent we understand that we are functioning as parts of a larger body, and this affects us by
giving our souls a sense of optimism about ourselves, the world, and the whole of the universe.
Turning to the loss of the Holy Idea, we will return to Holy Law. The major implication of Holy
Law is that nothing in the universe occurs in isolation and that the actions of one part affect and are
linked to the actions of all other parts of the whole. Therefore, no one and nothing can function
independently of the whole body of the universe, so it is not possible to have laws that apply to only
one part. Because Ennea-type Threes are sensitive to this Holy Idea, as they lose contact with Being,
they also lose this understanding and come to feel very much like independent operatives, separate
entities acting and doing autonomously, unrelated to the functioning of everyone and everything else. They come to believe that they are laws unto themselves, beyond the morals, strictures, and principles that govern others. This ultimately estranged sense that they can function separately from the whole is the fixed and fundamental belief about reality, the fixation of this ennea-type, and is described by the word vanity on the Enneagram of Fixations, Diagram 2. (Ichazo’s secondary term go refers to the Three’s characteristic of always being busy—on the go.)

With the loss of the perception of Holy Harmony, Ennea-type Threes, who experience themselves as
separate players in life as we have seen, can be oblivious to the ramifications and effects of their
actions on others or on the world as a whole. We see this today in the mind-set that disregards
environmental consequences if personal gain is at stake, losing sight of the fact that if the ecosystem
degenerates, there will be nothing more to profit from and no place to enjoy what one has acquired.
Perhaps it is seen more directly in the mind-set of the person who supports “good causes,” only to
behave in cutthroat ways toward her most immediate business associates, and so simultaneously
feeling virtuous while personally acting dishonestly. While characteristic although not confined to
Threes, this kind of insular thinking is only possible with the loss of knowing oneself to be part of a
greater whole in which the actions of each part affect the totality. Climbing to the top of the heap at
the expense of other people may feel like a personal triumph—which it usually does to a Three—but it can hardly be seen as success if the whole system is taken into account. Such a Three-ish definition of success does not make any ultimate sense: one part of the whole profits to the detriment of another part of itself.

Without the sense that you are part of the unfoldment of the whole fabric of reality and that your
inner nature is made up of the same presence as everyone and everything else, you are left, like Atlas, to hold up your own separate little world. This is reality for a Three. You are on your own,
fundamentally unrelated to everyone and everything else, and actually surpassing Atlas, it’s up to you to create as well as maintain your own universe. There is no activity, unfoldment, or development unless you make it happen. If you don’t generate yourself and your life—worse than nothing happening—you and your world will fall apart. So you have to be constantly active, ceaselessly busy both internally and externally, and hence the nickname of this type, Ego-Go. Whatever happens in your life is up to you, there is no sustenance beyond what you actuate, and there is no salvation beyond yourself. There is, in other words, no Holy Hope. The self who does all of this is the soul identified with the personality, cut off from consciousness of Being. To a Three who is identified with his personality, there is nothing deeper, and it’s the only ground she has to operate from.

I have lumped together the sense of self-creation, an internal cognitive function, as well as the
Three’s sense of instigating external events, and what this linkage implies bears looking into more
deeply. It is easy to understand a Three’s belief that if she doesn’t make things happen, nothing will
happen, when we think of external action. Most of us, identified as we are with our personalities, take it for granted that we cause things to happen, that our actions determine what ensues in our lives, and that in this respect we are masters of our fate. Stepping outside of the perspective of the personality, however, one sees that this is not the case. Being acts through us. This is one of the most difficult things for most people to understand, and perhaps using our previous metaphor will make it easier to grasp: we are each individual manifestations of Being, separate waves arising and passing away on the surface of the great Ocean. The movement of each individual wave is not self-generated nor is it separately decided upon; it is part of the movement of the whole sea. In the same way, all that occurs is part of the movement of the larger fabric of reality. From this angle, the differentiation between inner and outer doing—a differentiation based upon whether action is physically manifest or not—breaks down. One implication of this is that our thoughts and emotions are every bit as much a part of this movement as physical actions are, an understanding reflected in the often-misunderstood notion of karma.

External doing is always driven by inner doing when we are identified with the personality. The
inner doing of the personality is what is called ego activity in spiritual language. It is the ceaseless
generation of psychological content, which is based upon our identification as a particular person, and it also supports that identification. It supports our sense of who we are, in other words, and is what I referred to as self-generation or self-creation. Sometimes consciously, but most often unconsciously, we are continuously generating internal pictures of ourselves that have been shaped by our history.

These pictures, as discussed in the Introduction, are like holographic images, complete with feeling
tones, affective texture, physical tension patterns, and other sensations, and are based on our beliefs. We might experience ourselves as someone who is misunderstood, or someone who others are not inclined to like, someone who never does things right, or someone who has a hard time initiating action; or more positively, as someone who is brighter than others, someone who is very kind, or someone who is strong. As also previously discussed, these pictures of ourselves, which form our self-representations, arise in counterpoint to our sense of what is other than us, forming the object relations that are the building blocks of the personality. As also discussed, embedded within and responsible for the dynamic of producing these object relations is the fundamental drive behind ego activity to avoid pain and experience pleasure.

Ego activity is ceaseless in the personality, and until we experience moments in which it stops, we
have little idea of how tiring and wearing it is. Even when we are asleep, our unconscious is busily
processing the day’s experiences and anticipating those of tomorrow in the form of dreams. Only in
deep sleep does this activity stop in the ordinary person, and as experiments of sleep deprivation have shown, without this respite, we become psychological wrecks. This cessation of ego activity is the goal of many kinds of spiritual work, and such experiences are what are called enlightenment
experiences, because it is only when we experience ourselves without this activity that we experience ourselves completely beyond the personality. In such moments, we know our nature pristinely, without any filters of the past, and we experience ourselves as Being.

Once we know that Being is our fundamental nature, a further stage is the realization that the sense
of “I” that our ego activity has been so busy creating and supporting is not necessary for us to
function. Because our sense of self developed simultaneously with our capacity to function, the two
have become inseparable in most people’s minds. Eventually, as we continue to develop spiritually,
we see that we can function without producing inner pictures of ourselves. We learn that we do not
have to remind ourselves of who we are to drive the car or do our taxes, for instance. Letting go of our historical self, with the holographic movie whose theme is a life lived within object relations, we
contact reality directly, responding to the present instead of the past. We feel simple and empty in a
positive way, deplete of preconceptions and emotional reactions. Then we can begin to live a life in
touch with and informed by Being, knowing consciously that we are individual manifestations of it.
We experience ourselves as waves of the great Ocean, ourselves one with it. Our place and function
within the body of humanity is evident, and we live our lives in a harmonious way. This is the
development of the Essential Aspect called the Pearl in the Diamond Approach. It is the state of
embodying and living a life informed by Being. This is a very deep level of development, since it
means not simply having transcended the personality. It means having thoroughly worked through
identification with our psychology and no longer consciously or unconsciously identifying with the
personality as defining who and what we are.2 Obviously this is no small task and is a level of
development embodied by very few.

This quality of Being—the Pearl—is the one that this personality type mimics and idealizes, and so
it is its idealized Aspect. Let us pick this understanding apart. Ego activity and the internal image of
self that it generates, as well as external actions that are motivated by it, are central to the psychology of Ennea-type Threes, as we have seen. This activity is a reflection and an imitation of the creative and dynamic characteristic of Being. So in their attempt to reconnect with the lost Holy Idea of Holy Law, which has to do with this generative functioning of Being, Threes attempt to mold or shape themselves into a person. Rather than generating the whole universe, as Being does, here the activity produces a personality based upon a self-image. Threes are deeply identified with this internal image of self, produced by their ego activity, as well as with the external activity directed by this “I.” Rather than experiencing herself as an individual manifestation and expression of Being, which is the experience of the Pearl, the Three feels this “I” as supreme. This “I” is an imitation Pearl, a fake embodiment of God, so to speak, and that is exactly what the ego self is.

Threes act as though they are the generative principle, the creative aspect of God, in other words,
since in their own apparently separate universe, that is how it seems. Threes, then, try to take God’s
place, creating themselves and their lives in accordance with their own inner dictates. This is the
consummate vanity, in the theological sense: relating to the separate “I” as though it were the acme.
Looking at it from a slightly different angle, the personality, the outer surface of who we are, becomes central. The shell, the husk of ourselves, is all that remains, with all of the emptiness at the core that this image conjures up, and it is this shell that feels primary. It usurps the place and the function—as well as the functioning—of Being.

From a psychodynamic point of view, the loss of the Holy Idea has, as we have seen, left the Three
with the sense that she is not part of the fabric of the Whole but rather a separate actor who must
create a reality and a life. From a historical vantage point, she has reacted to the lack of holding in her early environment with the attitude that “I’ll do it myself.” The sensitivity of Threes to their essential nature not being seen and reflected by the environment, filtered through the loss of the Holy Idea, creates the interpretation they must do to survive and to be loved—that their value is rooted in their ego activity and arises from their role and achievements. So the take on their childhood is that their survival was up to them and that they were loved for their accomplishments and not for themselves.

Sometimes there was physical deprivation in the past of a Three, or she had to take care of herself as
well as other siblings at a very young age because of an absent, overextended, or simply neglectful
parent. These kinds of backgrounds, filtered through the loss of Holy Law, lead to the “self-made
man,” clearly a Three archetype, in which someone from destitute roots pulls himself up by his own
bootstraps to achieve phenomenal wealth and fame. Sometimes the deprivation a Three has
experienced is not physical at all—many Threes are of course born into affluent and powerful
families. In these cases, the neglect is more of an emotional withholding in which conforming to the
family’s ideals and the Three’s achievements were all that seemed to receive much notice. Nannies or a kindly grandmother might have taken the place of mother, who had other, presumably more
important, things to do. The message that filtered through the Three’s sensitivity was that she was a
showpiece valued only for her role. Regardless of the childhood circumstances, the message Threes
get is that their survival and their value lie in their performance and achievements, and their
personality becomes focused around image and action.

As the name of this ennea-type—ego-vanity—indicates, the issue of vanity is central to the
psychology of Threes. The word vain is defined as “having no real value, meaning or foundation,”3
and this graphically describes the soul, cut off from awareness of Being, in which the shell of the
personality is experienced as preeminent. Indeed, one’s real foundation—which alone can give a true sense of meaning and value to one’s life—is missing. This is the deepest level of the vanity of Threes.

Vanity is also defined as “inflated pride in oneself or one’s appearance, attainments, performance,
possessions, or successes; hunger for praise or admiration; the ostentation of fashion, wealth, or power regarded as an occasion of empty pride or a vain show.”4 These are more superficial manifestations of the fundamental vanity of Threes, that of the personality usurping the place of Being, and we will explore them in detail.

The superficial itself—the surface, what is seen, what is presented—is of utmost importance to
Threes. Appearance, in other words, is everything. How one’s shell looks and functions matters
profoundly, since having the perfect image and performing flawlessly is what a Three values. The
presentation is more important than what lies behind it; the image one presents is the end in itself. The form matters more than the substance here. Translated in personal terms, what matters to a Three is how she looks, what she achieves, and what she has. The animal associated with this ennea-type exemplifies this: the peacock, who, like a Three, exhibits and struts his beautiful plumage to impress.

Threes’ sense of self and of self-worth is inextricably linked up with their image, and it is difficult for
them to see or to experience themselves as anything separate from it. What a Three presents is, to
them, who they are. So the central preoccupation for a Three is to master the perfect image. This
shaping of her soul into an image is reflected on the Enneagram of Antiself Actions as self-imaging,
which appears at Point Three, as we see on Diagram 11. This shows up visually: there is often
something masklike about a Three’s face, having usually a broad, flat, and often sometimes even
plastic quality to it.

To so value your image, you must see yourself through the eyes of others. Preoccupation with
image, then, implies relationship: how you look, what you achieve, and what you have are all relative to others. The image that Threes try to shape themselves into perfectly is based on what others value and idealize. This image is not a personal one arising from inner values or ideals—although these are taken on as part of the image—but rather one arising from the values and ideals of one’s family or culture. Threes try to become this ideal, at least on the surface, and how well they achieve it determines their degree of success in their own eyes. The overarching image a Three takes on changes as her milieu changes, and she adjusts it to achieve her ends and to be accepted by particular individuals. They are in this sense chameleons, taking on the colorings of their environment, so there is little that feels unique, creative, or original about Threes. As personifications of collective ideals, Threes are often very charismatic, mesmerizing, and captivating. A striking example of this was President John F. Kennedy.

In psychological terminology what I have just described is the process of identification, and it is the
defense mechanism of this ennea-type. In identification, “various attitudes, functions, and values of
the other are integrated into a cohesive, effective identity and become fully functional parts of the self compatible with other parts.”5 What a Three identifies with, they take themselves to be.
Physical beauty, wealth, and power are generally what Threes consider important because these are
things most people consider important. Beauty contests, fashion shows, the movie scene, executive
boardrooms, venture capital groups, junk bond trading, the advertising industry, and even the tabloids are all typical Three venues. The entertainment industry abounds in Threes. Stars of previous decades who are most likely Threes include Richard Chamberlain, Farrah Fawcett, Cheryl Ladd, Robert Wagner, Don Johnson, Diana Ross, and Tom Selleck. More currently, we have Cindy Crawford, George Clooney, Pamela Anderson, Leonardo DiCaprio, Whitney Houston, and perhaps Holly Hunter. Kristy Yamaguchi, the Olympic ice-skater, is probably also a Three. Threes are the cheerleaders and pom-pom girls, the class president and homecoming king and queen, the California girl, the supermodel and movie star, the corporate CEO, the slick Wall Street trader, and perhaps most graphically, the advertising executive. Image consciousness is the packaging and marketing of
oneself, the selling of oneself like a product. The proverbial snake oil salesman and used car dealer are less savory Three archetypes.

There are many variations in what image a Three takes on, depending upon her social milieu. If
involved in the religious right, for instance, a Three will try to look and act pious and zealous. If
involved in politics, a Three will try to present the most politically correct face—aided by spin
doctors, the masters of image manipulation and itself a Three phenomenon. If involved in spiritual
work, a Three will try to manifest seamlessly the spiritual ideal of her tradition. And it is in this arena
that image consciousness becomes most problematic, because experiences of Essence and True Nature only serve to expose and highlight the falsehood of a Three’s front. Threes can be successful for a time in presenting a spiritually correct veneer, but in time reality must expose the sham for there to be true transformation. A case in point is Werner Erhard, the founder of est, who was dubbed the supersalesman of consciousness. He created a popular spiritual empire and made a fortune offering weekend courses that promised “getting it,” i.e., enlightenment. While what he preached emphasized truthfulness and familial reconciliation, his downfall was precipitated by his being exposed as overtly abusive to his wife, and in the course of investigations about it, his dubious financial dealings also came to light.

In addition to shaping themselves into a cultural ideal, image consciousness also operates more
subtly in Threes. They are very aware of how they are coming across to others, and will modify what
they are presenting to make the impact and achieve the result they want. Threes will suppress feelings, thoughts, and even sensations that don’t seem appropriate to a situation in order to present the correct image. Because of this tendency, those who know them may all experience them quite differently, since Threes present to each something of themselves that the other person will like. With someone who values personal sharing, they will become emotionally disclosing, while with someone who values a businesslike attitude, they will be precise and hard-nosed. Becoming all things to all people, Threes often feel that no one really knows them.

Threes often feel somewhat impersonal to others. There is a lack of emotionality about them, a
mechanicalness visible behind even a show of emotion. This is because their emotions are those of the image—those they think they should feel—rather than those coming from a deeper inner source.

There is also something cool about Threes, a kind of beautiful but untouchable and impenetrable
facade. You have the sense that they are not personally relating to you but rather are relating to the
image that you form of them. It is very difficult for them to tolerate being seen in a bad light by
others. They will go to extremes to dispel a negative image another forms of them, even if it involves
fabrications and duplicity, a subject we will explore in a few moments.

They seem perpetually adolescent and youthful, with a boyish quality in the men and a cute ingenue
quality in the women, which we see exemplified in Tom Cruise, Robert Redford, Brooke Shields, and
Christie Brinkley. They tend to have sunny dispositions, presenting themselves as self-assured,
buoyant, and confident. But this positive face is not based on a true optimism about life or trust in the goodness of humanity or of reality and is instead founded upon an anticipatory leaning toward
personal success. There is nothing airy-fairy about their bright-eyed demeanor, since behind it lies the conviction that there is no hope or help beyond themselves and their own efforts. They are pragmatic, practical, matter-of-fact, facing reality coolly, with no complicating emotional reactions or moral compunctions, so that they can expediently meet and master the challenges life presents to them.

Success—a very important word for Threes—is defined here by how successful your image is, how
seamless your performance is and what it has gotten you, as well as who you have impressed.
Reaching your goals is far more important than personal relationships—unless they are the conquest
(as in landing that famous/wealthy/powerful person) or are stepping-stones toward some
accomplishment. There is a driven quality about Threes that causes them to overexert, often
neglecting themselves physically and emotionally in ordered to achieve something. They will
subordinate eating, sleeping, and any feelings that might arise to the task at hand. It is very difficult
for a Three not to be active. Relaxing—unless it becomes a project in and of itself—is not easy for
Threes. Achieving things gives them a sense of value and meaning, so not doing means losing that. It
also means that their world might crumble and put their survival in jeopardy. This is the typical
workaholic syndrome, although it is important to remember that, while typical, overworking is not the sole domain of Threes. It is also important to note that not all Threes are successes, but they all strive to be.

The drive of a Three is at its roots an attempt to offset and avoid their core deficiency state, which
usually lies buried in the unconscious: feeling like a failure. There are a number of reasons why
Threes feel that they have failed. First, they fundamentally believe that their only value arises from
the image they present and from their accomplishments, which means that who they are feels
worthless to them. The soul knows that its outer mask and activities are only the external, and so there is a deep sense of personal failing that nothing else about oneself seems to be of worth. This might manifest as the belief that they failed to hold their mother’s love based solely on who they were rather than on what they could do. So the failure may be felt as not having been enough of a person to make mother care. Deeper still, we see that implicit in this sense of failure is a helplessness that is intolerable to Threes: it is the sense of not having been able in childhood to make the environment hold them and also of not having been able to get their essential nature mirrored. This sense of helplessness can only have life if we believe we could have affected these things, which in fact none of us has any control over. Behind this is an even deeper sense of helplessness and failure for Threes: the sense that they have not managed to stay connected to their depths. To the soul of a Three, believing as they do that it is all up to them, this is their ultimate lack of success, and all of their outer achievements are at root an attempt to nullify this fundamental sense of failure.

Feeling helpless, like a failure, or being unsuccessful in achieving a goal is avoided at all costs,
even if it means lying to oneself and others—a subject we will return to. We see this reflected on the
Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10, which you will find in Appendix B, with failure appearing at
Point Three. On the other hand, no success ever feels as though it is real or enough, since it is the
image that is responsible for it. So the cycle continues of driving oneself on to greater and greater
triumphs, none of which ever really brings a sense of satisfaction to a Three’s soul.

In their drive for success, Threes can be relentless and ruthless. They often do not care who they use
or step on to get where they are going, since the goal is far more important to them than another
person. They are acutely conscious of who has the most beauty, wealth, power, and success; and they are unabashedly competitive about surpassing their rival and getting to the top. They are
unequivocally ambitious and will tolerate no obstacles, inward or outward, in realizing their
aspirations. There is nothing like a good contest or challenge to sharpen up their edge. They can be
calculating, cutthroat, cunning, and heartless, exhibiting a steely determination to get what they want.

This was graphically portrayed by the character of Gordon Gekko played by Michael Douglas in the
film Wall Street, and also by Al Pacino’s portrayal of the devil as a slick executive in The Devil’s
Advocate. To this end, they may badmouth others in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, slyly pushing the
competition to the side. It is not that they are cruel or vindictive but rather that they are focused on
winning and on triumph, and will allow no one and nothing to stand in their way, compelled by their
inner imperative to avoid failure.

A Three’s superego exhorts her to do more and more, to be more efficient and faster at what she
does, and above all else, to succeed in her ambitions. Her superego uses the threat of failure against
her, convincing her that if she lets up, she will surely be a failure. Pushing and driving her onward, her superego is far more heartless and merciless toward her than she could ever be toward anyone else.

Physical or emotional fatigue are not things her superego considers adequate reasons to stop her
ceaseless activity, much less the simple human need for unstructured downtime. How she feels does
not matter to her inner critic, only what she accomplishes, mimicking the message she internalized
from her parents. Her superego also attacks her viciously for being phony, fake, insubstantial, and
boring. So while insisting that she conform to the image others will approve of and like her for, she
berates herself for her superficiality. Caught in this double bind, the focus on activity gets reinforced.
Her superego contributes to her all-business-and-no-nonsense orientation, centered on the product
rather than the process. Quality is subordinated to quantity, and effect takes priority over affect. To a great extent, Threes’ sense of personal value is measured by how effective, competent, and productive they are, and they judge others using the same yardstick. Efficiency is a Three’s trap, as we see on the Enneagram of Traps, Diagram 9 in Appendix B. They often project inefficiency onto others, believing that they can do things better and faster than anyone else and not trusting others to get the job done. So they often end up trying to do it all themselves, whatever the task at hand happens to be. They often don’t imagine that anyone could or would assist them, believing it’s all up to them. They try to do everything quickly, getting as much accomplished as possible, and often do many things at the same time. So things are rushed through, often not done thoroughly, and quality gets sacrificed.

Modern life, which is progressively taking on more and more of a Three-ish character, is replete
with things designed to increase our efficiency. Fast-food restaurants are springing up all over the
planet, where you can order and eat without leaving your car. Packaged meals, modern versions of the TV dinners of the fifties, are a staple in many people’s lives. Institutional cafeterias and take-out
meals satisfy our physical needs while not slowing us down. We have cellular phones to carry
everywhere with us so that we can always reach others and be reached, and televisions and even
computers are now available in cars so that we miss nothing that is going on. This proliferation of
technology that keeps us constantly in contact with the rest of the world is an interesting facsimile of the interconnectedness that is missing in a Three’s consciousness.

Prefabricated houses, utilitarian and functional, can be assembled quickly, creating instant
neighborhoods. Malls and supermarkets make shopping for a variety of things efficient and quick.
And freeways get us wherever we are going rapidly, sacrificing the quality of the journey for speed.
Many of these innovations of contemporary life are American, our culture being an uneasy blend of
One-ish morality and puritan ethics, and Three-ish amoral expediency and personal ambition. The rest of the world emulates and often outdoes our packaging and promotion of the image and our headlong rush to success. Clothes and shoes with designer labels prominently displayed carry the Three message that you are what you wear. The wrapping substitutes for the substance, the surface for the depth. Silk flowers and plastic lawn animals imitate and replace life. Karaoke bars let you pretend that you are actually singing the song.

Pretense, falseness, and shallowness are words that often arise describing the feel of a Three, and
this leads us to exploring the passion of this ennea-type, lying, as we see on the Enneagram of
Passions in Diagram 2. The deepest lie a Three tells herself is that the personality is paramount; and in supporting it, she deceives both herself and others about what is truly real—real about herself and real about the nature of reality. This level of deceit is of course common to all those who are identified with their personality, which is most of humanity. It is the most dangerous form of deception because we believe it.

Although lying to themselves about who they really are is the deepest lie, many other varieties of
lying are particular to Ennea-type Threes. There are outright lies that a Three is consciously telling—
about her feelings, her past, her motives, about what really happened, what was said and by whom, and so forth. These lies are about getting the job done, getting what she wants, and impressing others as well as avoiding defeat or being perceived as failing, negligent, inefficient, or inept. There are the “little white lies” that are so much a part of conventional life, like “I never got the message that you called,” or “Don’t you look wonderful,” when that is not at all what happened or what a Three feels.

There are those in which the truth is stretched, twisted, or varnished to give it a different look. There
are exaggerations, inflations, and embellishments of the truth. Things are fabricated and trumped up to create a particular impression or picture. Particular aspects of the truth may be highlighted, blown up, or enlarged upon, distorting the overall impression. All of these shades of lying are for a Three about creating and preserving a particular image both to herself and to others, which she feels she must do, and much of the prevarication is unconscious—she often actually believes she is telling the truth at the time.

This is another area that makes inner work very slippery for a Three. They very often do not know
where the truth leaves off and the lie begins. The biggest deception is a self-deception about her inner reality, and hence self-deception occupies Point Three on the Enneagram of Lies, Diagram 12. It is sometimes difficult for Threes to separate out what they think they ought to feel, think, or believe, and what is actually the case for them. The identification with their role or function may be so complete that there is no internal space for any disparities. Unlike the other two image types, Ennea-types Two and Four, a Three’s identification with her image is so total that she believes it is who she is. We might say of Threes what Holly Golightly’s manager says of her in Breakfast at Tiffany’s, “She’s a real phony.” Like perpetual method actors who never leave the stage, Threes become the role they are playing, forgetting that it is only a performance and believing it is who they are. This inextricable linkage between self and image, and self and function is another variety of lie. A Three may be so successful at convincing others that she is deeply religious or profoundly spiritually realized, gathering around herself numerous devoted followers, that she believes it herself and begins to think that she is beyond the mores and strictures that apply to others. If a Three’s arena is business, she may be so influential and revered that she skirts the edge of the law, putting together deals or having affairs that she honestly believes will not, and cannot, have personal consequences.

The body part associated with Point Three is the thymus gland, and understanding its significance
may help us comprehend something about what is necessary for a Three to evolve spiritually. The
thymus is an organ of the lymphatic system located just behind the breastbone. While little is known
about the actual functioning of the thymus, it is very important for the human immune system and
needs to be present at birth for an infant to be healthy. It is most active in utero and during childhood; and as part of the immune system, it helps to distinguish “nonself ” or foreign tissue and to attack malignant cells, fungal and viral infection, and bacteria.

Translating this in terms of consciousness, this tells us that discriminating what is oneself and what
is nonself is crucial for a Three’s development. A Three must first of all turn inward, no easy task for
one whose sense of self resides in her reflection in the eyes of others and who subordinates inner
experience to outer achievements. She needs to stop long enough to begin to face her inner truth—
herself as she is—and this is where the virtue of Point Three, veracity, comes into play. We find it on
the Enneagram of Virtues in Diagram 1. Ichazo’s definition of veracity is as follows: “A healthy body
can only express its own being; it cannot lie because it cannot be anything other than what it is.” The
word veracity has a few different meanings, all of which are relevant to the transformation and
development of a Three. It means devotion to the truth, the power to convey or perceive truth,
accuracy in the sense of conforming to truth or fact, and something true. In the following, we will
discuss some of the highlights of a Three’s inner journey to becoming an embodiment of truth.
For a Three to become veracious in the sense of being devoted to the truth, which is one definition
of spiritual work, she will have to see how she lies to herself. This is the beginning of being truthful.
The first level of lie she will have to confront is her belief that she is what she does. Only by
understanding how dependent her self-esteem is upon her performance can she seriously begin to step off the stage and deal with her inner life. This will mean facing how little value she has to herself if she is not achieving something, which in turn will reveal the underpinnings of that attitude—the formative factors in her early childhood that left her with the conviction that she has no inherent value just as a person. She will probably have to re-experience how little real contact and love touched her soul as a child, and how the majority of attention she received was for her accomplishments, not for what she was feeling or even thinking about. She will see that just as her inner life received little notice or value from her parents, so, too, she ceased paying attention to her inner world. Inquiring into this will probably bring up a great deal of grief and pain for having so completely turned away from her soul.

The more she pays attention to herself, the more she will begin to perceive the extent of her
identification with her image. She will discover how little of a gap there is between the face she
presents and anything else going on inside of herself. This is a particularly painful juncture for a
Three. It brings up feelings of superficiality and shallowness, and is fertile ground for her superego to
give her a very difficult time. It has probably already been on her case for slowing down to look at
herself in the first place. Here it attacks her for being so insubstantial and empty. If she can defend
against its attacks and persevere in exploring her inner reality, she will see how extensive her
identification with familial and cultural ideals has been. She will see how profoundly she has molded
herself into the form of those ideals, to the extent that there is little left of her outside of that shape.
She may find that she does not really know what she herself wants or feels outside of what she thinks she should, and more troubling still, that she does not even know how to begin asking herself those questions.

The degree of inner emptiness that will arise as she faces the extent of her identification with her
image is profound. Because so much of her psyche and her life force have been invested in the image, there is so little else of her soul left for her to turn toward. So a yawning abyss faces her as her soul begins to let go of the investment in this façade. Because of this, Threes may have the most
objectively painful inner journey of all of the ennea-types. If the image is a lie, what else does she
have? This is a very difficult inner confrontation. She also doesn’t feel that she can really rely on
herself in this part of her inner terrain, because her sense of what is real and what is the truth is so
changeable and untrustworthy. This is a problem that follows her throughout her inner work:
discerning what is really true for her and what is the spin she has given things. So just like her holding environment as a young child, which felt profoundly unsupportive to her and left her with the belief that the only holding she will ever find will come from her own hands, she finds herself at this juncture to be undependable as well.

The other problem that dogs her process is her knee-jerk tendency to want to see results right away.
She wants what she is discovering about herself to be useful—she wants her development to help her in her work in the world or in her relationships. She tends to try to package it and market it so that she will make some kind of profit from it, either materially or in the form of accolades for being so spiritually evolved. Most of all, she wants some payoff, rather than having to face the chasm of her inner emptiness, which looks distinctly unrewarding.

The emptiness brings up the dreaded feelings of defeat, the sense that despite all of her best efforts,
she could not shape herself into God. This is the heart of her vanity as we have seen—her belief that
she could bring about through her own efforts all of the plentitude and fulfillment of Being. On the
face of it, that may sound like a ridiculous self-expectation, but for a Three, it is not. It is how she
really feels deep down—the source of her feelings of failure and helplessness—whether conscious or
not. Somewhere in her inner journey, this impossible demand on herself will have to emerge into
consciousness and be seen for the absurdity that it is. She will see how all of her ceaseless doing has
its roots in this vain attempt, in both senses of the word.

She will also see that her attempt to replicate God has been defensive, keeping her from having to
face her disconnection from Being. Her endless activity has really been an escape from the huge
empty place that feels to her like the entirety of her soul, which has resulted from her estrangement
from her depths. She will see that she has taken this emptiness where she has lost contact with her
Essence to be who she is, and so she felt little choice but to flee from it and do everything she could to replicate what she had lost. Compassion for herself will gradually arise as she understands this, and her heart will begin to become part of the picture for her. As her heart opens to herself, the emptiness will cease to feel as hopeless and frightening. Facing the truth of it and allowing herself to experience it fully, it will transform into a spaciousness that is profoundly still and peaceful. In time, all of the radiant colors and qualities of her essential nature will arise out of this inner space and display themselves in all their glory, like a cosmic peacock that her personality has been so busy imitating.

In the process, as she makes repeated forays into her inner reality, she will progressively feel more
real, and less like a fake person. Rather than being only conscious of and living from the surface of the soul and feeling that there is nothing more to her, she will gradually feel more and more substantial and authentic. She will gradually stop living through images projected and experienced of herself; and veracity will become more and more of her lived experience. She will differentiate progressively from familial, societal, and cultural images and ideals, knowing where they stop and she begins.

The inner sense of being a phony, a fabrication, an imitation of a person, gives way to a sense of
simplicity, naturalness, and genuineness. Her soul will become more and more transparent to the
depths within herself, and her actions will bit by bit express and be informed by objective reality—her essential nature. She will find in time that she is not a someone who experiences Essence but that she is Essence. And little by little she will find herself feeling part of the fabric of the universe, a beautiful form within it, and will finally feel in harmony with the truth. She will become more and more of a real person, a conscious manifestation and embodiment of Being, and at long last she will really walk her talk—indeed becoming a Pearl Beyond Price.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I think I have stumbled on another insight about Fe and Fi. I said that The Wall is Ni. The hardened ego shell. This is is where it gets tricky, because people associate Fe as like tending to the needs of others. Building them up. Nurturing them. Which it often does. But I have decided that Fi is "hope". 

Jung described Te as constructive thinking. It builds. When describing a Fe dom, he said this type's thinking can have a "nothing but" attitude. It is destructive. 

_"The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more ‘depersonalized/ it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the ‘ nothing but’ style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.

"This negative thinking avails itself of every infantile prejudice or parallel that is calculated to breed doubt in the feeling-value, and it tows every primitive instinct along with it, in the effort to make ‘a nothing but* interpretation of the feeling.""

_If you look at somebody like Marx and Hitler. They mercilessly critique the system. But they have something to replace the sorry state of the world. They are promising deliverance. There is hope there. Even though it may be twisted. 

Fe-Ti is more likely to absolutely destroy something and leave nothing in its place. Like Bruce Lee. He just wipes out all systems. Which is a form of creation. It leaves "nothingness". It creates space. But once the building process starts, INFJ check out. We don't understand peace or blank slates. We are defined by opposition and conflict. Or some are at least. 

And I just realized that is what Pink Floyd was doing. It is mercilessly stripping life and society of all value. The Dark Side of The Moon is a chronicle of the inauthenticity of the feeling object. It is Ti gutting Fe. You live a totally inauthentic life imposed on you by society, and once it all finally starts to make sense and is tolerable, (and everything under the sun is in tune) you fucking die, and it was all for nothing anyway, (But the Sun is eclipsed by The Moon). So fuck you. The end. lol. 

It is a brilliant piece of work. I think Roger Waters is an INFJ. That is how an INFJ would lash out at the world. Not by prancing around like a fool, like Hitler.


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny I woke up and everything is love and happiness.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Barakiel said:


> I should really do that again. Shame there aren't many bookstores where I live, closest is a short train ride away, and yes, I live in a rural area, it's painful and pitiful. :laughing:
> 
> We should do a thread where we type several manmade concepts, for instance, a random fact to match yours, poetry seems *very* Ni to me, saying the same thing a story can in vague and indescript sentences. And another one, Death Note, such an Ne show, gambit upon gambit upon gambit. :cheers2: The only thing that interests me about Socionics is the Quadras, seems like a good way to cut down on time by researching separate Quadras and figuring out which fits you, not going through 16 types of 8 functions. :laughing:


That sounds boring, really I would die of boredom if I had no internet nor books for keeping my mind busy xD type 7 issues.

I've noticed that XNFPs are fond of poetry, so I think that it can be Ne or Ni based. 

Quadras work, specially if you've observed lots of people and contrast your data with the information of every quadra.


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> *warning: no one is going to like this opinion*


I agree with some of it, and not with the rest.



> I don't agree with a lot of psychology because frankly I don't believe in a lot of psychological disorders. I think a lot of disorders are really spiritual afflictions and can't just be medicated away...some are clearly chemical imbalances, anything where you hallucinate is clearly a problem, but...I don't really agree with diagnosing depression or bipolar disorder, I think things like this are really genuine things that happen to people because of...society, because of themselves, not because their brain particles did something wrong. I think we have a society that encourages people to have mental illnesses: firstly, because it is so artificial and impersonal, and secondly, because when someone deviates from the mean or feels bad or unable to help themselves we slap a label on it and start drugging them until they feel the way they 'should'.


I think that our society does "over-diagnose" people, but I do believe some people really do have real problems. I know some very wonderful, godly people who are still bipolar. Their moods go up and down like a yo-yo. They hate it, they can't help it, no amount of prayer or spiritual renewal will fix it. So, they take medicine and ... feel better. 



> It's a really politically incorrect thing to say, but...I don't really believe in depression, say. I believe in despair, and I think we've built up a society where it's _really easy_ to fall into despair because we have no safety net, no true social network, and a curious mix of a 'do what you want no standards' and 'super high expectations' thing...but it's not easy to tackle those issues, so we call things by a clinical name and . . . I don't know.


But what about someone having everything they want, no major problems, and lacking despair, but still struggling with depression? Because that is something I struggle with all the time. I'm a melancholic temperament and I've been on and off depressed over the years. Sometimes it's short-term, sometimes it's long-term, but it's not driven by my environment or deep unhappiness. It's just... there. There is no reason for it to be there. It shouldn't be there. But, it is. Just... sadness. Sometimes, it's low blood sugar. Sometimes, it's brain chemistry. Sometimes, it's just ... depression.



> I think people have to be held accountable for their behavior more...you can't just say you have narcissistic personality disorder...you have to realize that this comes from narcissism and then take steps to fix it. You can't just say you have depression, you have to take steps to finding joy.


I agree. Own your problems, and try to fix them. Including getting help, if you need it. There's no shame in taking meds. I prefer not to, but if you need them, take them.



> But it's very difficult in a society where instead of talking to your neighbor, your priest, your friends, we're expected to pay professionals to deal with our mental disorders, and we don't automatically help the people around us. And . . . I just don't think it's true that everything is a mental disorder, some people are naturally more empathetic, more energetic, more inclined to mood swings, etc. I think most people are mentally where they need to be, but what really needs help is their soul and their behavior.


Yes, we all need help in our souls. In our love for others.



> Like...I don't know, this is why psychology makes me angry. It's difficult to express and literally no one agrees with me, but it just feels soulless and wrong.


Psychology can help, if that is its aim. If its aim is to prolong emotional anguish or foster a codependent relationship between patient and therapist, it's not so great.


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> That sounds boring, really I would die of boredom if I had no internet nor books for keeping my mind busy xD type 7 issues.
> 
> I've noticed that XNFPs are fond of poetry, so I think that it can be Ne or Ni based.
> 
> Quadras work, specially if you've observed lots of people and contrast your data with the information of every quadra.


Haha, oh no, I have internet, so I'm fine, I can survive. :laughing:

My main reason for calling it Ni, well, see above. But Ne seems to put stuff upon stuff upon stuff, like George R.R. Martin with Game of Thrones, have you _seen_ how many subplots he introduced in the first couple of seasons? :wink:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Barakiel said:


> Haha, oh no, I have internet, so I'm fine, I can survive. :laughing:
> 
> My main reason for calling it Ni, well, see above. But Ne seems to put stuff upon stuff upon stuff, like George R.R. Martin with Game of Thrones, have you _seen_ how many subplots he introduced in the first couple of seasons? :wink:


I haven't watched GoT and I tried to read the books, but I got a tl;dr that was made worse by the fact that I'm not a native English speaker, and Spanish translations may be off lol


----------



## Immolate

For being an Fe type, I keep rubbing people the wrong way. My life eaceful:

Also, I think poetry can go both ways.

*[Edit]* Ni poem? Or Ne?


* *




Orange in the middle of a table:

It isn't enough
to walk around it
at a distance, saying
it's an orange:
nothing to do
with us, nothing
else: leave it alone

I want to pick it up
in my hand
I want to peel the
skin off; I want
more to be said to me
than just Orange:
want to be told
everything it has to say
And you, sitting across
the table, at a distance, with
your smile contained, and like the orange
in the sun: silent:

Your silence
isn't enough for me
now, no matter with what
contentment you fold
your hands together; I want
anything you can say
in the sunlight:
stories of your various
childhoods, aimless journeyings,
your loves; your articulate
skeleton; your posturings; your lies.

These orange silences
(sunlight and hidden smile)
make me want to
wrench you into saying;
now I'd crack your skull
like a walnut, split it like a pumpkin
to make you talk, or get
a look inside

But quietly:
if I take the orange
with care enough and hold it
gently

I may find
an egg
a sun
an orange moon
perhaps a skull; center
of all energy
resting in my hand

can change it to
whatever I desire
it to be

and you, man, orange afternoon
lover, wherever
you sit across from me
(tables, trains, buses)

if I watch
quietly enough
and long enough

at last, you will say
(maybe without speaking)

(there are mountains
inside your skull
garden and chaos, ocean
and hurricane; certain
corners of rooms, portraits
of great grandmothers, curtains
of a particular shade;
your deserts; your private
dinosaurs; the first
woman)

all I need to know
tell me
everything
just as it was
from the beginning.


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> I haven't watched GoT and I tried to read the books, but I got a tl;dr that was made worse by the fact that I'm not a native English speaker, and Spanish translations may be off lol


When you introduce over 10 separate storylines, and then slowly diverge the characters between those to introduce more storylines, you know you're Ne. :laughing:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Barakiel said:


> When you introduce over 10 separate storylines, and then slowly diverge the characters between those to introduce more storylines, you know you're Ne. :laughing:


Damn, I would lose track of the books quickly. No wonder that I got a tl;dr that saved me from getting many headaches XD


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> Damn, I would lose track of the books quickly. No wonder that I got a tl;dr that saved me from getting many headaches XD


There's actually a joke among fans that several story arcs, Gendry's, Yara's, Beric's, have gone unresolved as to this day. :laughing: Shame, cause I actually like Gendry.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Barakiel said:


> There's actually a joke among fans that several story arcs, Gendry's, Yara's, Beric's, have gone unresolved as to this day. :laughing: Shame, cause I actually like Gendry.


That book has more derails than this thread lol also I can't keep track of books that have too many characters, as I forget their names if they're not that relevant.


----------



## orbit

@angelcat, my depression was for no reason too but it did make me accountable for several bad beliefs. I try to justify it because they tell me to but I only got back on track after I got diagnosed and got help


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> That book has more derails than this thread lol also I can't keep track of books that have too many characters, as I forget their names if they're not that relevant.


Well, we'll have to quantify said derails first. :wink:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Barakiel said:


> Well, we'll have to quantify said derails first. :wink:


True xD but yeah, books that have too many characters confuse me. That's why I couldn't finish War and Peace as I couldn't keep track of anything lol


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> There's actually a joke among fans that several story arcs, Gendry's, Yara's, Beric's, have gone unresolved as to this day. :laughing: Shame, cause I actually like Gendry.


He's going to row all the way to essos.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Well, we'll have to quantify said derails first. :wink:


Is that possible.


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> He's going to row all the way to essos.


You know, I was just thinking the other day -- whatever happened to Gendry?

Also, when is the plot going to, you know, um, PROGRESS? Even a little?


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> He's going to row all the way to essos.


Maybe he'll find Dany with the Dothraki and hammer his way to some measure of sympathy from her. Would make her the most traitorous candidate for the crown ever, having the Dothraki, Unsullied, and a Lannister and Baratheon on her side. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> True xD but yeah, books that have too many characters confuse me. That's why I couldn't finish War and Peace as I couldn't keep track of anything lol


Oh, War and Peace? You mean with Patrick Swayze? I have a bit of a grudge against that series. It's not bad, I've just heard that theme song *TOO MANY DAMN TIMES!* My sister loves it, though, as you may have gathered. :dry:



shinynotshiny said:


> Is that possible.


Not at all, no. Never. :laughing:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Barakiel said:


> Oh, War and Peace? You mean with Patrick Swayze? I have a bit of a grudge against that series. It's not bad, I've just heard that theme song *TOO MANY DAMN TIMES!* My sister loves it, though, as you may have gathered. :dry:


I mean the book written by Tolstoy, tried to read it but I got a headache like when I tried to read the Silmarillion. I love to read, but some books are too boring or confuse me.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Alright then, if we're using gifs, @Oswin, I challenge you!


----------



## Barakiel

Blue Flare said:


> I mean the book written by Tolstoy, tried to read it but I got a headache like when I tried to read the Silmarillion. I love to read, but some books are too boring or confuse me.


I wonder if we'll get an argument on whether it's faithful to the book, that'd be almost nostalgic at this point. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


>


You made me smile, Oswin...

Sorry for the response. I feel strongly about the issue.


----------



## fair phantom

I'm not sorry. I won't apologize for sticking up for myself when someone sh**s over my soul.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


>


Oh please, you need to do better than that. *DEBATE!*


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> You made me smile, Oswin...
> 
> Sorry for the response. I feel strongly about the issue.


No, it's my fault) I know what I mean and it's not "Boo depressed people go die" but I also don't really know how to express it because it's so different than how...anyone else...thinks of these things, so I should really stop trying)
I can't say anything without people thinking I'm being mean which...I'm really not, but if I was going to explain what I really mean I would have to define _all_ terms and I'm just too lazy. I keep hoping I'll strike upon the right phrasing and everyone will go, "Oh! So that's what she meant! How wise she has been this whole time!" but obviously that's just not going to happen so...I'm just going to take Tevye's advice and 'let the outside world break its own head')


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> I'm not sorry. I won't apologize for sticking up for myself when someone sh**s over my soul.












I always feel like a terrible person.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Oh please, you need to do better than that. *DEBATE!*











(the original gif I wanted to post was just 'you will never understand' but this works too

mixed with


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> (the original gif I wanted to post was just 'you will never understand'
> 
> mixed with


Perhaps it's you who can't understand? I've found that thinking you're misunderstood and still right is wrong. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I'm not sorry. I won't apologize for sticking up for myself when someone sh**s over my soul.


Are you ruled by your depression? Because I don't think so, you seem perfectly functional.


----------



## fair phantom

seriously? SERIOUSLY? 

I am out of here. Bye.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Oswin said:
> 
> 
> 
> *warning: no one is going to like this opinion*
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with some of it, and not with the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree with a lot of psychology because frankly I don't believe in a lot of psychological disorders. I think a lot of disorders are really spiritual afflictions and can't just be medicated away...some are clearly chemical imbalances, anything where you hallucinate is clearly a problem, but...I don't really agree with diagnosing depression or bipolar disorder, I think things like this are really genuine things that happen to people because of...society, because of themselves, not because their brain particles did something wrong. I think we have a society that encourages people to have mental illnesses: firstly, because it is so artificial and impersonal, and secondly, because when someone deviates from the mean or feels bad or unable to help themselves we slap a label on it and start drugging them until they feel the way they 'should'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that our society does "over-diagnose" people, but I do believe some people really do have real problems. I know some very wonderful, godly people who are still bipolar. Their moods go up and down like a yo-yo. They hate it, they can't help it, no amount of prayer or spiritual renewal will fix it. So, they take medicine and ... feel better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a really politically incorrect thing to say, but...I don't really believe in depression, say. I believe in despair, and I think we've built up a society where it's _really easy_ to fall into despair because we have no safety net, no true social network, and a curious mix of a 'do what you want no standards' and 'super high expectations' thing...but it's not easy to tackle those issues, so we call things by a clinical name and . . . I don't know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But what about someone having everything they want, no major problems, and lacking despair, but still struggling with depression? Because that is something I struggle with all the time. I'm a melancholic temperament and I've been on and off depressed over the years. Sometimes it's short-term, sometimes it's long-term, but it's not driven by my environment or deep unhappiness. It's just... there. There is no reason for it to be there. It shouldn't be there. But, it is. Just... sadness. Sometimes, it's low blood sugar. Sometimes, it's brain chemistry. Sometimes, it's just ... depression.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think people have to be held accountable for their behavior more...you can't just say you have narcissistic personality disorder...you have to realize that this comes from narcissism and then take steps to fix it. You can't just say you have depression, you have to take steps to finding joy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. Own your problems, and try to fix them. Including getting help, if you need it. There's no shame in taking meds. I prefer not to, but if you need them, take them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's very difficult in a society where instead of talking to your neighbor, your priest, your friends, we're expected to pay professionals to deal with our mental disorders, and we don't automatically help the people around us. And . . . I just don't think it's true that everything is a mental disorder, some people are naturally more empathetic, more energetic, more inclined to mood swings, etc. I think most people are mentally where they need to be, but what really needs help is their soul and their behavior.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, we all need help in our souls. In our love for others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like...I don't know, this is why psychology makes me angry. It's difficult to express and literally no one agrees with me, but it just feels soulless and wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Psychology can help, if that is its aim. If its aim is to prolong emotional anguish or foster a codependent relationship between patient and therapist, it's not so great.
Click to expand...

This. Every drop.



You had some points oswin. But some, off points.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Are you ruled by your depression? Because I don't think so, you seem perfectly functional.


Because I am on medication and have been through therapy.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Because I am on medication and have been through therapy.


And I sympathize, having gone through therapy for my own affliction. You're more than your depression, though, I do hope you know this. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Are you ruled by your depression? Because I don't think so, you seem perfectly functional.












I understood your intent, but some things are too sensitive.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Perhaps it's you who can't understand? I've found that thinking you're misunderstood and still right is wrong. :wink:


No, I know what I mean and I know it's being taken the wrong way. Which is my fault, but...


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> No, I know what I mean and I know it's being taken the wrong way. Which is my fault, but...


No, we know what you mean.


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you ruled by your depression? Because I don't think so, you seem perfectly functional.
Click to expand...


This!

WHoley hell, phantom. I get it. I'm so sorry this was a trigger. I understand. So sorry. :/


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> No, I know what I mean and I know it's being taken the wrong way. Which is my fault, but...












To preface, I don't consider your opinion invalid because you haven't been through depression. I consider it invalid because you're interfering religion with science, and considering depression invalid because it doesn't fit with your dichotomy. Spiritual imbalances? Give me a break. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> No, we know what you mean.


Well, maybe, but the violent reactions are telling me you aren't because my point is a quite nice one that no one would react violently to if they understood it. 

I am not controlled by chemicals and no one is going to tell me that I am.

I'd rather drop this point though.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Well, maybe, but the violent reactions are telling me you aren't because my point is a quite nice one that no one would react violently to if they understood it.
> 
> I am not controlled by chemicals and no one is going to tell me that I am.
> 
> I'd rather drop this point though.


It's nice in the sense that it's not hostile, but it _is _fairly ignorant and therefore dismissive of mental health struggles.


----------



## Persephone Soul

*runs for cover*

I agree, I think it should be dropped. :/


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Well, maybe, but the violent reactions are telling me you aren't because my point is a quite nice one that no one would react violently to if they understood it.
> 
> I am not controlled by chemicals and no one is going to tell me that I am.
> 
> I'd rather drop this point though.


Oh no, you'd rather be constrained by arbitrary spiritual balances, that's much better. :dry: To get my point across, I'm not a fan of considering my body a bunch of chemicals either, but neither am I inclined to believe that depressed people have spiritual imbalances, that trivializes it and makes it something that your all knowing God should have fixed. The reality is, it doesn't matter whether it's spiritual or chemical, these are real diseases and real consequences come from them, and I imagine that's what @fair phantom is pissed off at, though correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## 68097

Well, let's not let it go to waste. @Oswin: this feels like intense Si from you, but I could be wrong. Si has a habit of distrusting anything it has not personally experienced and/or does not believe is valid. "It hasn't happened to me, so it's not real." 

IE, why when my Ni-dom friends predict the future or say they have visions or get auras from people or are prophets, I don't believe them. *I* do not see the world that way, so why should I believe they do?

Like Anna and the King says, we don't see the world as it is, but as we are.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> It's nice in the sense that it's not hostile, but it _is _fairly ignorant and therefore dismissive of mental health struggles.


"Ignorant" is the most overused word, I am ignorant of your things just like you're ignorant of mine. It's super-super relative.
But I did not realize this would blow up so badly, so I want it to end now.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh no, you'd rather be constrained by arbitrary spiritual balances, that's much better. :dry: To get my point across, I'm not a fan of considering my body a bunch of chemicals either, but neither am I inclined to believe that depressed people have spiritual imbalances, that trivializes it and makes it something that your all knowing God should have fixed. The reality is, it doesn't matter whether it's spiritual or chemical, these are real diseases and real consequences come from them, and I imagine that's what @_fair phantom_ is pissed off at, though correct me if I'm wrong.


I can only speak for myself, but I agree with a lot of your sentiment. It's exceptionally frustrating when people refuse to believe mental health has anything to do with biology, as if the mind and body are two completely separate things. They're not. It trivializes the issue and gives people the freedom to dismiss people with mental illness as emotionally weak, or even spiritually imbalanced (never heard it phrased that way before).


----------



## 68097

On a different note, I'm kind of bummed that Oswin and Shiny's threads are so quiet, with no further discussion or developments. This forum has tragically let me down. I was BEING ENTERTAINED.


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> "Ignorant" is the most overused word, I am ignorant of your things just like you're ignorant of mine. It's super-super relative.
> But I did not realize this would blow up so badly, so I want it to end now.


You're ignorant of the way biology affects mood, emotions, the thought process, etc.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> "Ignorant" is the most overused word, I am ignorant of your things just like you're ignorant of mine. It's super-super relative.
> But I did not realize this would blow up so badly, so I want it to end now.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> On a different note, I'm kind of bummed that Oswin and Shiny's threads are so quiet, with no further discussion or developments. This forum has tragically let me down. I was BEING ENTERTAINED.


Oh, no, my thread fell into a burning pit. Most fascinating.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


>


EPIC WIN.

I want this argument to stop, but that gif is ... perfect.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I agree with a lot of your sentiment. It's exceptionally frustrating when people refuse to believe mental health has anything to do with biology, as if the mind and body are two completely separate things. They're not. It trivializes the issue and gives people the freedom to dismiss people with mental illness as emotionally weak, or even spiritually imbalanced (never heard it phrased that way before).


Until you've felt the sensation of having your throat seize up during every sentence, I'm afraid my viewpoint is rather different from others. :wink: As a woman, I thought she'd be more accepting of the link between biology and mental health, but I suppose some beliefs triumph others.

As for people with mental illnesses being emotionally weak, I actually think trauma strengthens both the mind and soul, hence my respect towards people with mental illnesses. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> EPIC WIN.
> 
> I want this argument to stop, but that gif is ... perfect.


We need more Game of Thrones gifs, especially with Tyrion and Olenna, perhaps Varys too, he had some good lines. :laughing: As I said previously, it's like Pulp Fiction but fantasy, quotable lines out the wazoo. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> Well, let's not let it go to waste. @Oswin: this feels like intense Si from you, but I could be wrong. Si has a habit of distrusting anything it has not personally experienced and/or does not believe is valid. "It hasn't happened to me, so it's not real."
> 
> IE, why when my Ni-dom friends predict the future or say they have visions or get auras from people or are prophets, I don't believe them. *I* do not see the world that way, so why should I believe they do?
> 
> Like Anna and the King says, we don't see the world as it is, but as we are.


No, but as a teenager I was 'diagnosed' with depression, I was hospitalized for suicide attempts, but I also worked through it and at no point was I given medication. I know what what they call depression feels like and I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all, I'm saying that it doesn't exist in the manner it is described. 

I think it still could be Si but like...

I don't want to hear that I have no control over my own brain because I _know_ that's not true. I'm not just random blips on a machine, I have a will and my will is stronger than any chemicals partying around in my physical brain. I firmly believe that people can help themselves, and no one needs to hear that they are the puppets of chemicals and brain waves. And it's not true. The mind is stronger than the brain. There's a level where it's good for people to hear that their experiences are valid, but beyond that it's just victimizing them. People don't need to see themselves as victims, they are the heroes of their own stories. And I think a lot of things in our culture set us up as villains and we forget to take action on our own behalf. That is what I take issue with.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> As a woman, I thought she'd be more accepting of the link between biology and mental health...


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


>


Just making a connection, not much else, though it was meant as a probing question. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> No, but as a teenager I was 'diagnosed' with depression, I was hospitalized for suicide attempts, but I also worked through it and at no point was I given medication. I know what what they call depression feels like and I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all, I'm saying that it doesn't exist in the manner it is described.
> 
> I think it still could be Si but like...
> 
> I don't want to hear that I have no control over my own brain because I _know_ that's not true. I'm not just random blips on a machine, I have a will and my will is stronger than any chemicals partying around in my physical brain. I firmly believe that people can help themselves, and no one needs to hear that they are the puppets of chemicals and brain waves. And it's not true. The mind is stronger than the brain. There's a level where it's good for people to hear that their experiences are valid, but beyond that it's just victimizing them. People don't need to see themselves as victims, they are the heroes of their own stories. And I think a lot of things in our culture set us up as villains and we forget to take action on our own behalf. That is what I take issue with.


The problem is that you're separating mental health from overall health. Would you argue someone can will a physical disorder away? Some people don't have full control of their bodies just as some people don't have full control of their minds. It's a scary thought, yes, so I ask that you acknowledge it's a sensitive subject for several people on this thread, including myself. I'm sorry you had the history you did, and I'm glad you were able to overcome it, but it's different for many people and that difference has a lot to do with chemicals partying around in the brain.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Until you've felt the sensation of having your throat seize up during every sentence, I'm afraid my viewpoint is rather different from others. :wink: *As a woman, I thought she'd be more accepting of the link between biology and mental health, but I suppose some beliefs triumph others.*
> 
> As for people with mental illnesses being emotionally weak, I actually think trauma strengthens both the mind and soul, hence my respect towards people with mental illnesses. :happy:


First of all, I never said that people with mental illnesses are weak so that's just not the argument I was making.
Secondly, I wasn't really talking about religion at any point.
Thirdly, that bold bit...?


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> First of all, I never said that people with mental illnesses are weak so that's just not the argument I was making.
> Secondly, I wasn't really talking about religion at any point.
> Thirdly, that bold bit...?


He was referring to a point I made.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> No, but as a teenager I was 'diagnosed' with depression, I was hospitalized for suicide attempts, but I also worked through it and at no point was I given medication. I know what what they call depression feels like and I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all, I'm saying that it doesn't exist in the manner it is described.
> 
> I think it still could be Si but like...
> 
> I don't want to hear that I have no control over my own brain because I _know_ that's not true. I'm not just random blips on a machine, I have a will and my will is stronger than any chemicals partying around in my physical brain. I firmly believe that people can help themselves, and no one needs to hear that they are the puppets of chemicals and brain waves. And it's not true. The mind is stronger than the brain. There's a level where it's good for people to hear that their experiences are valid, but beyond that it's just victimizing them. People don't need to see themselves as victims, they are the heroes of their own stories. And I think a lot of things in our culture set us up as villains and we forget to take action on our own behalf. That is what I take issue with.


You remind me of those people just urging people with disorders to try harder. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> The problem is that you're separating mental health from overall health. Would you argue someone can will a physical disorder away? Some people don't have full control of their bodies just as some people don't have full control of their minds. It's a scary thought, yes, so I ask that you acknowledge it's a sensitive subject for several people on this thread, including myself. I'm sorry you had the history you did, and I'm glad you were able to overcome it, but it's different for many people and that difference has a lot to do with chemicals partying around in the brain.


Well, from personal experience, we're not total slaves to our bodies, you can will away a cold or fever...not a heart attack or stroke or cancer though.
I wasn't trying to use my personal experience as some sort of buffer, it was intended as more of an example and an explanation of where I was coming from...I acknowledge it's a sensitive area for people on this thread, but that doesn't make them right.
Again, I don't want to be having this conversation anymore. It was a bad idea to post my thoughts in the first place.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Again, I don't want to be having this conversation anymore. It was a bad idea to post my thoughts in the first place.


When your thoughts contradict science, and devalue other people's trauma on top of that, yup, pretty much. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> You remind me of those people just urging people with disorders to try harder. :dry:












I just don't see how drugging people so they can avoid their problems is better than helping them face and actually overcome their problems. And that really bothers me. But my words bother others, and I don't think I can explain them sufficiently so it's clear I'm not trying to be mean or wanting people to off themselves, which I never want.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> First of all, I never said that people with mental illnesses are weak so that's just not the argument I was making.
> Secondly, I wasn't really talking about religion at any point.
> Thirdly, that bold bit...?


Firstly, I was responding to @shinynotshiny, not you, so that doesn't count as a rebuttal.
Secondly, what, spiritually imbalanced isn't a belief you got from religion?
Thirdly, that bold bit was meant to be a jab at the fact that your body provokes you to be stressed every month, yet you still don't think the mind is at least influenced by the body?


----------



## Vermillion

angelcat said:


> Well, let's not let it go to waste. @_Oswin_: this feels like intense Si from you, but I could be wrong. Si has a habit of distrusting anything it has not personally experienced and/or does not believe is valid. "It hasn't happened to me, so it's not real."
> 
> IE, why when my Ni-dom friends predict the future or say they have visions or get auras from people or are prophets, I don't believe them. *I* do not see the world that way, so why should I believe they do?
> 
> Like Anna and the King says, we don't see the world as it is, but as we are.


Can we _please_ avoid typing people by comparison? A lot of people can mistrust things that they haven't personally experienced. As an example, there are so many people around the world who are agnostic/atheists and say they don't entertain the idea of god because they haven't experienced anything like it. Are they all Si types? Nope.


----------



## orbit

Excuse me, but it's been stated several that the conversation would be liked to stop. So can the discussion be stopped and moved onto a new topic?


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I just don't see how drugging people so they can avoid their problems is better than helping them face and actually overcome their problems. And that really bothers me. But my words bother others, and I don't think I can explain them sufficiently so it's clear I'm not trying to be mean or wanting people to off themselves, which I never want.


It's not avoiding their problems, it's getting them ready to face them in due time. I speak for myself when I say that I'm dealing with my stutter right now, and even though I don't take any drugs for it, if it helps them survive, who are you to complain? :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> When your thoughts contradict science, and devalue other people's trauma on top of that, yup, pretty much. :dry:


I think it invalidates peoples' experience to be saying it's just their brain acting up. That's why it bothers me in the first place.
I normally wouldn't shut up since I hate just conceding my point because people are offended but since the people who are going to be bothered by this are the people with a history of mental illness and I don't want to send anyone into a suicidal spiral I am going to.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Just making a connection, not much else, though it was meant as a probing question. :wink:












Okay.

Depression. It exists. PMS also exists. I get mood swings during PMS. I want to cry about everything, and I hate everyone. I can give into it, and be a victim of it, or I can acknowledge what is happening and try to mediate my behavior accordingly. I usually choose the second option.

That is, in my opinion, rather valid to this conversation. Mental imbalances, chemical imbalances, etc., do in fact exist. We can choose to be victims of them or we can acknowledge what is happening and try to do something about it. We can take medicine. We can avoid things that "trigger" our depressive stints. We can exercise, and get sunlight, and take Vitamin C, etc. So no, we do not have to be "victims" but these are things we cannot always help. 

Regarding my own depression, it got so bad I didn't move from the couch for weeks. I lived alone. I lost weight. I could barely get up when my parents dropped in one day. I felt like the entire world was resting between my ears, dragging me toward the floor. Chemical imbalance or just ... unhappiness? Doesn't matter. I got help. I got medicated. My Si told me, "this is making absolutely no difference, so you don't need to be on it," so I went off it. I changed my diet. That cured a lot of it. I got tests done. Turns out I'm sensitive to a boatload of foods. Gluten in particular makes me mentally sluggish and tired -- mirroring the effects of depression. My blood sugar is unstable; in the mornings in particular it's low, making me feel ... sluggish and tired. IE, depressed.

For me, chemicals absolutely DO wreak havoc with me. But I refuse to be a victim. I know what is happening, when it happens, and I take steps to correct it. 

Now, on a different note -- I think the violent upset in this thread is an over-reaction. @Oswin does not mean what she says maliciously and I do agree that her point is misunderstood. I know her to be a kind person. I also know the enormous anxiety built up over saying something and causing an explosion. So can we please stop making this all about our own hurt feelings and extend her a little grace?


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I think it invalidates peoples' experience to be saying it's just their brain acting up. That's why it bothers me in the first place.
> I normally wouldn't shut up since I hate just conceding my point because people are offended but since the people who are going to be bothered by this are the people with a history of mental illness and I don't want to send anyone into a suicidal spiral I am going to.


Just like people die from heart attacks because of a lack of continual blood supply. And amputees have just had their flesh torn. If you're looking for a bigger meaning, there's very little.  I do understand your argument, but the statements you made don't fit in with it.


----------



## orbit

Seriously. Stop. Please.


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> Seriously. Stop. Please.


It's no use.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> On a different note, I'm kind of bummed that Oswin and Shiny's threads are so quiet, with no further discussion or developments. This forum has tragically let me down. I was BEING ENTERTAINED.


*shyly raises hand*

uhhh..mine too...


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Okay.
> 
> Depression. It exists. PMS also exists. I get mood swings during PMS. I want to cry about everything, and I hate everyone. I can give into it, and be a victim of it, or I can acknowledge what is happening and try to mediate my behavior accordingly. I usually choose the second option.
> 
> That is, in my opinion, rather valid to this conversation. Mental imbalances, chemical imbalances, etc., do in fact exist. We can choose to be victims of them or we can acknowledge what is happening and try to do something about it. We can take medicine. We can avoid things that "trigger" our depressive stints. We can exercise, and get sunlight, and take Vitamin C, etc. So no, we do not have to be "victims" but these are things we cannot always help.
> 
> Regarding my own depression, it got so bad I didn't move from the couch for weeks. I lived alone. I lost weight. I could barely get up when my parents dropped in one day. I felt like the entire world was resting between my ears, dragging me toward the floor. Chemical imbalance or just ... unhappiness? Doesn't matter. I got help. I got medicated. My Si told me, "this is making absolutely no difference, so you don't need to be on it," so I went off it. I changed my diet. That cured a lot of it. I got tests done. Turns out I'm sensitive to a boatload of foods. Gluten in particular makes me mentally sluggish and tired -- mirroring the effects of depression. My blood sugar is unstable; in the mornings in particular it's low, making me feel ... sluggish and tired. IE, depressed.
> 
> For me, chemicals absolutely DO wreak havoc with me. But I refuse to be a victim. I know what is happening, when it happens, and I take steps to correct it.
> 
> Now, on a different note -- I think the violent upset in this thread is an over-reaction. @Oswin does not mean what she says maliciously and I do agree that her point is misunderstood. I know her to be a kind person. I also know the enormous anxiety built up over saying something and causing an explosion. So can we please stop making this all about our own hurt feelings and extend her a little grace?


Very motivational, @angelcat, I must applaud you for taking both sides of the argument and melding them into one, coherent argument, without all the emotional offense that plagued them. It's really a rare talent, feel proud. roud:

As for the violent upset, yes, it is an overreaction, but when you have people in this thread plagued with mental disorders so bad they need medicine to stabilize themselves, and victims of trauma, the *last* thing you should be doing is saying that what happened to them is inconsequential. She is a kind person, yes, but I can't agree with her on this. That being said, I'm fine with this all being bygones, if she is. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> Now, on a different note -- I think the violent upset in this thread is an over-reaction. @Oswin does not mean what she says maliciously and I do agree that her point is misunderstood. I know her to be a kind person. I also know the enormous anxiety built up over saying something and causing an explosion. So can we please stop making this all about our own hurt feelings and extend her a little grace?












Honestly, I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings and I'm sorry if I did.


----------



## Vermillion

Oswin said:


> I just don't see how drugging people so they can avoid their problems is better than helping them face and actually overcome their problems. And that really bothers me. But my words bother others, and I don't think I can explain them sufficiently so it's clear I'm not trying to be mean or wanting people to off themselves, which I never want.


I don't think it should be seen as "drugging people". That brings to mind force and compulsion. No one is forced to go to therapy or ask for help -- most people do it of their own choice. 

Mental illnesses really aren't as easy to handle as you put them. People seem to think, oh it doesn't have any physical manifestations, so it shouldn't be something serious. The truth is it can be immeasurably malicious simply because it's not easy to have your mind, the primary tool with which you view and understand the world, be afflicted. Your worldview becomes distorted and negative. 

It's a horrible experience, and some people have to live with this every day and tell themselves to stay rational, think positive... how do you "will" an affliction like this away, when your willpower is a muscle of the mind, and your mind isn't exactly in the best place? Will cancer go away if you simply tell it to strongly enough? Of course not.

And so there's nothing wrong with identifying some contributing causes and working to treat them. Restoring some chemical balance in the brain is one way to bring about some emotional stability. Talking to people well-versed in the theory of mental afflictions (psychologists, therapists, etc) is another way. And honestly, *it is not weak to seek help from these sources. *It doesn't mean you're a puppet, and you have no control over yourself. Those are really shameful ways of looking at disease and it seems like the sufferer is being blamed just for being ill. Would you tell someone with a high fever "look at you, how pathetic and weak-willed your white blood cells are, they can't even fight away the intruding bacteria"?

It isn't about being right or wrong. It's about respecting people's experiences and not forcing them to blame themselves. I know you're intending to hurt people, Oswin, but sometimes we hurt people without intending to, and we need to investigate our actions and beliefs to see why that happened. And I definitely think your beliefs need some revising in this regard.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> You remind me of those people just urging people with disorders to try harder. :dry:


Kinda like you did to fair phantom...?

Always pokin the bear, my dear sir.


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> *shyly raises hand*
> 
> uhhh..mine too...


Ah, yes, yours too.



Barakiel said:


> I can't agree with her on this.


You don't have to agree with someone to extend them grace. That's why it's grace.










^ I love dis bitch.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Kinda like you did to fair phantom...?
> 
> Always pokin the bear, my dear sir.


Do you mean where I told her to be more than her disability? If you'll recall, it was meant to encourage her to grow past it than assume what she was currently doing was wrong, as many people have said to me. If you're going to call me a hypocrite, try harder, Plum. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> On a different note, I'm kind of bummed that Oswin and Shiny's threads are so quiet, with no further discussion or developments. This forum has tragically let me down. I was BEING ENTERTAINED.


That's how I feel about my Enneagram thread now, ha. There's been a considerable amount of discussion on it, and it's been amusing to see people discuss me without my influence. I have trouble commenting and getting involved in conversation where I am now, but it's so interesting how it just kept going without me? It's been on pause for today, though. (Maybe I jinxed it by coming back on!) 

Not sure if you know much about Enneagram to follow along (they seem to be going into the depths of it), but there's some out-of-the-ordinary typing discussion on that new thread of mine if you're in need of further amusement


----------



## Immolate

Some simple, quick sources of info:

Depression and How Psychotherapy and Other Treatments Can Help People Recover
NIMH » Depression
What causes depression? - Harvard Health
Women and depression - Harvard Health

Also, I have no problem pointing out the problems with the mental health system, especially the psychiatric side of it. I'm not blind, either.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> You don't have to agree with someone to extend them grace. That's why it's grace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ I love dis bitch.


Oh, I know, but you do need to clarify where you stand when offering an olive branch as well. :wink:


----------



## orbit

Shut it Bear both my Ennegram and Socionic threads are duds XP At least you got a response


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Shut it Bear both my Ennegram and Socionic threads are duds XP At least you got a response


Sometimes silence is best :shocked:


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Honestly, I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings and I'm sorry if I did.


Does it have bacon? If not, no deal. :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> Do you mean where I told her to be more than her disability? If you'll recall, it was meant to encourage her to grow past it than assume what she was currently doing was wrong, as many people have said to me. If you're going to call me a hypocrite, try harder, Plum. :wink:











<3 <3 <3


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Does it have bacon? If not, no deal. :laughing:












Again, I knew this was going to be unpopular but I did not quite foresee how unpopular. I am sorry for bringing it up in the first place. My intention was not to hurt anyone or invalidate anyone's experience; I intended rather the opposite, but I truly apologize if it felt like that. Hopefully we can all be friendly again)


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> View attachment 351002
> 
> 
> <3 <3 <3


They're perfectly calm, last time I checked. :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

Oswin said:


> Again, I knew this was going to be unpopular but I did not quite foresee how unpopular. I am sorry for bringing it up in the first place. My intention was not to hurt anyone or invalidate anyone's experience; I intended rather the opposite, but I truly apologize if it felt like that. Hopefully we can all be friendly again)


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> Again, I knew this was going to be unpopular but I did not quite foresee how unpopular. I am sorry for bringing it up in the first place. My intention was not to hurt anyone or invalidate anyone's experience; I intended rather the opposite, but I truly apologize if it felt like that. Hopefully we can all be friendly again)


*Who the hell is that guy?* I see him everywhere, but I still have no idea who he is. :frustrating:

No, don't be sorry for it, that means you think you're wrong, and that's never good. Your beliefs are your own, and regardless of how much we don't like them, you have a right to say them. I did rather enjoy our game of social trapping, however. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Oh, I know, but you do need to clarify where you stand when offering an olive branch as well. :wink:


Actually, no, you don't.

True grace draws no attention to yourself, other than in the fact that you extend it, because in their place, you would want the same grace extended to you. 
@alittlebear: oooh, developments? SWEET!

Also, it seems like I was going to mention that I'm not a great example of a 6, because I'm counterphobic, so a regular 6 would be less confrontational than I am. I'm the kind of 6 who says, I HATE CONFLICT... and whose counterphobic kicks in to say THEN LET'S START SOME, SO YOU CAN TOUGHEN UP! LOL


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Sometimes silence is best :shocked:


...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Slowly going through the posts I missed...

On the bad side, I may have unintentionally begun a very tense conversation about mental health that was not helpful to the positive feelings on this thread. 

On a selfishly positive side, I was able to miss involvement in this conversation. 

And, on a bigger positive note, chances are it can end now /insert thumb emoji/


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> ...


Better silence than drama?


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Better silence than drama?


Self-Demonstrating Article - TV Tropes


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also,

The Silmarillion was brought up. 

The Silmarillion is beautiful. 

So much tucked in there about spirituality. And everything just makes LOTR and The Hobbit infinitely more significant. 

I can see why people wouldn't like it, but... It is a prize. I need to finish reading it, but I know what I did read just lifted my soul and furnished my understanding of the universe.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> *Who the hell is that guy?* I see him everywhere, but I still have no idea who he is. :frustrating:












If we need a new topic, feel free to fiercely debate my type)


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Actually, no, you don't.
> 
> True grace draws no attention to yourself, other than in the fact that you extend it, because in their place, you would want the same grace extended to you.


I would also want them to say their disagreement so that I know their perspective clearly. If you offer grace to someone, it either means you want the argument to end, either from a disadvantageous position or because you've given up, or you agree with the other person and want them to know that. This is different. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> *Who the hell is that guy?* I see him everywhere, but I still have no idea who he is. :frustrating:


You can't be serious :ssad:

@Curiphant My apologies, Curi. Clearly I am a dunce.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> If we need a new topic, feel free to fiercely debate my type)


That _wasn't_ an answer, but fine. :dry:


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> You can't be serious :ssad:


Nope, and it's strange, because I've seen him *EVERYWHERE.* Yet I know absolutely nothing about him. It's a paradoxical equation. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> That _wasn't_ an answer, but fine. :dry:


Behold.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Shut it Bear both my Ennegram and Socionic threads are duds XP At least you got a response


(Considering that I am the only person I know of on this Internet with a 1000+ page topic discussing their type I really have no permission to claim any complaint of typing attention.)


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Self-Demonstrating Article - TV Tropes


Better than that.

The definition of silence.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> Behold.


Oh. I actually thought he was a counterpart to The Anchorman, certainly had the temperament for it. :wink:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> If you offer grace to someone, it either means you want the argument to end, either from a disadvantageous position or because you've given up, or you agree with the other person and want them to know that. This is different. :wink:


No. 

Grace is knowing that someone is in the wrong, and choosing to love and forgive them anyway.

... I seem to be turning into Sister Julienne from _Call the Midwife_. 

I'm completely fine with that.










Also @alittlebear, nothing about any of this is in any way your fault. I'm also glad you were absent for most of it, since I know disagreements of this nature distress you.



alittlebear said:


> (Considering that I am the only person I know of on this Internet with a 1000+ page topic discussing their type I really have no permission to claim any complaint of typing attention.)


That's coz you are SPESHUL.


----------



## Dangerose




----------



## Pressed Flowers

Also, eh, should be obvious but I'm still away and just using my phone during free time. So I'm not ignoring anyone too intentionally.  

But I've been having a lovely time. Sometimes you need unexpected detours to get where you need to and see life again.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> (Considering that I am the only person I know of on this Internet with a 1000+ page topic discussing their type I really have no permission to claim any complaint of typing attention.)


Let's go back to discussing Ni. Especially in regards to Shiny who is a clearly a dunce. 

XSFJs are dunce cupcake grandmothers... 
Type match.


----------



## orbit

I dare someone to make a thread with this exact title. The confusion.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Oh. I actually thought he was a counterpart to The Anchorman, certainly had the temperament for it. :wink:


He is a beautiful example of an ISTJ, and by that I mean his pyramid of greatness embodies most, if not all, of the stereotypes.

He is close to my heart.


Anyhow, I'm out. Don't have too many revelations without me.

:exterminate:


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> No.
> 
> Grace is knowing that someone is in the wrong, and choosing to love and forgive them anyway.
> 
> ... I seem to be turning into Sister Julienne from _Call the Midwife_.
> 
> I'm completely fine with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also @alittlebear, nothing about any of this is in any way your fault. I'm also glad you were absent for most of it, since I know disagreements of this nature distress you.


If you say so. *skeptical look*

Hey, I've actually watched that show! Well, an episode of it, but it was pretty good! :wink:

I agree, although in a different vein. Conflicts happen with or without you, @alittlebear, you'll find that fault is largely relative. :happy: And I also agree that you not being here is a good thing, although you would have offered a different perspective, ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> No.
> 
> Grace is knowing that someone is in the wrong, and choosing to love and forgive them anyway.
> 
> ... I seem to be turning into Sister Julienne from _Call the Midwife_.
> 
> I'm completely fine with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also @alittlebear, nothing about any of this is in any way your fault. I'm also glad you were absent for most of it, since I know disagreements of this nature distress you.
> 
> 
> 
> That's coz you are SPESHUL.


Grace... That's an interesting topic, and one I honestly haven't considered deeply for years. It definitely sounds like a concept I need reminding of, and which will probably help me get back into the groove of knowing stuff I used to know


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Let's go back to discussing Ni. Especially in regards to Shiny who is a clearly a dunce.
> 
> XSFJs are dunce cupcake grandmothers...
> Type match.


Yes, this has been the greatest revelation of all. Freeing.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> I dare someone to make a thread with this exact title. The confusion.


You need to learn to take your dreams into your own fingertips.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> He is a beautiful example of an ISTJ, and by that I mean his pyramid of greatness embodies most, if not all, of the stereotypes.
> 
> He is close to my heart.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, I'm out. Don't have too many revelations without me.
> 
> :exterminate:


Not stereotypical at all, I imagine? :wink: And sure, see ya later! :kitteh:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Barakiel LOL I thought Swanson was the Anchorman for like two years


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Yes, this has been the greatest revelation of all. Freeing.


///revelation///


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Hey, I've actually watched that show! Well, an episode of it, but it was pretty good!


It's so... profoundly thought provoking in so many ways, or at least the first three seasons were, when they were based off Jenny Lee's autobiographies. Last season lost some of its profoundness since they're making stuff up now. But ... Sister Julienne, both the television version and the real person from the books, is ... someone I very much admire. She embodies what true faith is all about -- love, not judgment. 



shinynotshiny said:


> Yes, this has been the greatest revelation of all. Freeing.


Shiny is clearly an ENFP. I don't know what all of you have been smoking. 

ETA: Also, I was SUPPOSED to be paying attention to "Casablanca" to type the characters. Now, thanks to hanging on and refreshing this thread every two minutes, I missed all of it keeping up with the antics hereabouts. I blame all of you, you know.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel LOL I thought Swanson was the Anchorman for like two years


Yes! Someone as ignorant with this show as I am! :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> It's so... profoundly thought provoking in so many ways, or at least the first three seasons were, when they were based off Jenny Lee's autobiographies. Last season lost some of its profoundness since they're making stuff up now. But ... Sister Julienne, both the television version and the real person from the books, is ... someone I very much admire. She embodies what true faith is all about -- love, not judgment.


I haven't seen much, as I said earlier, but the old lady reminds me of a softer Olenna Tyrell. Meaning, she's easily my favorite character. :kitteh:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat you need to stop bringing up shows that then make me want to watch them


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> You need to learn to take your dreams into your own fingertips.


Silly frog, I already know I have Ni. 

No, no, no. She's an ESTP pretending to be an ENFP pretending to be an ESFJ


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Yes! Someone as ignorant with this show as I am! :laughing:


Someone who was as ignorant ;D I'm a veteran now.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> I haven't seen much, as I said earlier, but the old lady reminds me of a softer Olenna Tyrell. Meaning, she's easily my favorite character. :kitteh:


Which old lady? The crazy one or the crabby one?

If the crabby one -- Sister Evangelina?

Gee, I wonder why she reminds you of Olenna. They're totally not both ESTJs or anything. 

And yes, she's hilarious. I love her. I love all of them, actually, but she is just ... she cracks me up.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Silly frog, I already know I have Ni.
> 
> No, no, no. She's an ESTP pretending to be an ENFP pretending to be an ESFJ


Seeing the future now... Seeing Shiny... Shiny, the perfect red rose... and I see her saying...

_"Revelation."_


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Which old lady? The crazy one or the crabby one?
> 
> If the crabby one -- Sister Evangelina?
> 
> Gee, I wonder why she reminds you of Olenna. They're totally not both ESTJs or anything.
> 
> And yes, she's hilarious. I love her. I love all of them, actually, but she is just ... she cracks me up.


I think it was the crazy one, but now I want to watch Evangelina to see the similarities between her and Olenna. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

alittlebear said:


> @angelcat you need to stop bringing up shows that then make me want to watch them


Ah, but this one you MUST watch. Your Fe would love it. And it's gritty and realistic and based on a true story, which would make your Se happy. I just... do watch it sometime. You want unconditional love and grace exhibited on screen? You want the kind of Christianity we've been discussing? You'll find it in that show.



Barakiel said:


> I think it was the crazy one, but now I want to watch Evangelina to see the similarities between her and Olenna. :laughing:


The crazy one, Sister Monica Joan, is an ENFP and ... also hilarious. She drives my mother NUTS. "What is that old bag blathering on about now?!" And I just sit there and die laughing at her random tangents.



Curiphant said:


> Silly frog, I already know I have Ni.
> 
> No, no, no. She's an ESTP pretending to be an ENFP pretending to be an ESFJ


BY GEORGE, I THINK YOU'VE GOT IT!

Shiny, we are ON to your nefarious plan!!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

"Sunday, on Finding Bigfoot."

"Dr. Jeff: Rocky Mountain Vet."

"The tank is in place, but packing the facade has revealed a big oversight." 

Why have I been deprived of recent Animal Planet programming for so long.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Someone who was as ignorant ;D I'm a veteran now.


Oh lovely, good to know I have more catching up to do, with Call the Midwife and now this. Not to *mention* the four anime I'm rewatching right now. Such a hard life having the luxury to watch whatever shows I want. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Ah, but this one you MUST watch. Your Fe would love it. And it's gritty and realistic and based on a true story, which would make your Se happy. I just... do watch it sometime. You want unconditional love and grace exhibited on screen? You want the kind of Christianity we've been discussing? You'll find it in that show.


Oh gee, now I get the feeling I'm gonna dislike it intensely. :laughing:



angelcat said:


> The crazy one, Sister Monica Joan, is an ENFP and ... also hilarious. She drives my mother NUTS. "What is that old bag blathering on about now?!" And I just sit there and die laughing at her random tangents.


I can buy that she's an ENFP, even from that one scene she has in the first episode. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Oh lovely, good to know I have more catching up to do, with Call the Midwife and now this. Not to *mention* the four anime I'm rewatching right now. Such a hard life having the luxury to watch whatever shows I want. :wink:


Barakiel, we've been friends for a while now. Or at least acquaintances. Laughter is your element. You need to prioritize watching Parks and Recreation.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Barakiel, we've been friends for a while now. Or at least acquaintances. Laughter is your element. You need to prioritize watching Parks and Recreation.


Oh enough with that, we're friends, not acquaintances. :toast: And, yeah, but... I've got so much stuff to watch. I wonder if it's on Netflix, though. Been watching Daredevil also, _brilliant_ show, but I'm sure you all know that. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Oh gee, now I get the feeling I'm gonna dislike it intensely. :laughing:
> 
> I can buy that she's an ENFP, even from that one scene she has in the first episode. :laughing:


I think my favorite single moment of hers was saying she needed unpack her books after moving to their new home, because she feared the 'contents might get jumbled up.' That was such a whimsical, lovely idea that it captured my imagination.

And just because you're Fi doesn't mean you won't like it. The main character is an ISFP.

@alittlebear:






You know you want to watch it.

Darn, now *I* want to re-watch it. 

*gets up off the couch to get it*


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Barakiel, we've been friends for a while now. Or at least acquaintances. Laughter is your element. You need to prioritize watching Parks and Recreation.


Seconded.









(But I would start at Season 2, Season 1 is kinda rocky)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Oh enough with that, we're friends, not acquaintances. :toast: And, yeah, but... I've got so much stuff to watch. I wonder if it's on Netflix, though. Been watching Daredevil also, _brilliant_ show, but I'm sure you all know that. :laughing:


I don't know anything about Daredevil /thumb/

And yes, Parks and Rec is on Netflix! It's a Netflix staple. 

(And my phone is dead so I'm gone, but good night all!)


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Which old lady? The crazy one or the crabby one?
> 
> If the crabby one -- Sister Evangelina?
> 
> Gee, I wonder why she reminds you of Olenna. They're totally not both ESTJs or anything.
> 
> And yes, she's hilarious. I love her. I love all of them, actually, but she is just ... she cracks me up.


She is probably my fave! Chummy I adore but in doses lol


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> I think my favorite single moment of hers was saying she needed unpack her books after moving to their new home, because she feared the 'contents might get jumbled up.' That was such a whimsical, lovely idea that it captured my imagination.
> 
> And just because you're Fi doesn't mean you won't like it. The main character is an ISFP.


That actually sounds like something Eleven would say. That's rather impressive. :laughing:

Don't hold your breath, I haven't liked an ISFP at first glance for a while yet. Though I usually warm up to them over time. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I think my favorite single moment of hers was saying she needed unpack her books after moving to their new home, because she feared the 'contents might get jumbled up.' That was such a whimsical, lovely idea that it captured my imagination.
> 
> And just because you're Fi doesn't mean you won't like it. The main character is an ISFP.
> 
> @alittlebear:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know you want to watch it.
> 
> Darn, now *I* want to re-watch it.
> 
> *gets up off the couch to get it*


When I get home, it will definitely be on my list  I'm rather excited now, to be honest.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I don't know anything about Daredevil /thumb/
> 
> And yes, Parks and Rec is on Netflix! It's a Netflix staple.
> 
> (And my phone is dead so I'm gone, but good night all!)


Watch it. It's amazing. roud:

Huh, I just checked, twice, and it's apparently not. :tongue:

We'll mourn your disappearance for the next 5 seconds. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

I've been watching 'Don't Trust the B in Apartment 23'. It's fun, not the best but fun.
I struggle to watch shows that aren't funny...I tried watching Call the Midwife but I got bored mid-episode...
For me Arrested Development and Frasier are still the gods of television)
















*tries to ingratiate herself into the thread with gifs*


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> She is probably my fave! Chummy I adore but in doses lol


She's my mom's favorite. Um... I think Sister Julienne is honestly my favorite. I'm always drawn to the older, wiser and often single female characters in these kinds of dramas. Maybe cause I hope that I'm like them someday?



Barakiel said:


> That actually sounds like something Eleven would say. That's rather impressive. :laughing:
> 
> Don't hold your breath, I haven't liked an ISFP at first glance for a while yet. Though I usually warm up to them over time. :wink:


Jenny... I like her, but I don't. I can't explain it other than to say her lack of Ti wears on me a bit.



alittlebear said:


> When I get home, it will definitely be on my list  I'm rather excited now, to be honest.


YAY!

Also, I'm turning in as well. I can squeeze in an episode before I go to bed. So... night all. Don't burn the house dow


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> (though...*never seen House*...watched a bit in a hotel but I didn't really get into it)


You and that cannibalistic tribe from second Pirates of the Caribbean. xD

Watching Frasier. THIS SHOW IS SO SALTY.


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm reminded of one of Asimov's short stories about gendered androids, I believe it's called "Feminine Intuition." On the one hand, he didn't seem to support gender bias, but on the other hand, his stories treat gender in a very traditional way. His women characters don't stand out in any significant way, at least from what I've read. I still have a few novels to look into. I think "The Gods Themselves" has an interesting take on alien sex and gender.



Oh, I haven't read his short stories yet, actually (wait, no, I read The Final Answer and The Last Question – if those were the titles, they were hard to remember for some reason but I loved the stories). I've just read Caves of Steel, The Naked Sun, and the Foundation Trilogy, which was amazing. I'll try to get a hold of those ones though! :ghost3:




ElliCat said:


> YAY YOU GO USA!!
> 
> *waits for own country to catch up*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no, not them!! I don't like those moments! I hope the call comes so that you can be put out of your misery either way.
> 
> 
> Ugh yes I know, I thought the same thing as I was typing, I'm so used to writing them in hiragana that roumaji looks plain wrong. I do remember using a lot of "to omou" and "tabun" (surprise surprise) but I don't remember "kamoshirenai" or "no you ga ki ga suru". I don't think of them as indefinite articles, which is probably why I got confused. My understanding is more along the lines of Spanish "uno/una/unos/unas" or French "un/une/des".
> 
> I think I might have picked up on that distinction, although I wasn't taught it formally per se. Great to know, just in case I ever need to pick up on it again!
> 
> 
> You're probably right. I was thinking more of the actual culling part, hence the judging focus, but then I guess it's not going to be of much help if the perceiving function/s can't narrow its vision enough.
> 
> One thing's for sure... Ne would have to be the worst perceiving function for that.
> 
> 
> Yeah that's been my experience as well. I really need to learn to calm down and not be so hard on myself.
> 
> I think the courses will be useful in the future, but the teacher annoys me so I'm not enjoying the subject as much as I thought I would. It actually ends in a bit over a week and I managed to finish watching all the videos today (two whole days early!) so I just have the main assignments for each subject to go. I have a couple of days off during the week so hopefully I have the self-control to finish them then!
> 
> In theory I could probably just not do them, or talk to the teacher about getting an extension, but I'd kind of rather just get it over and done with. Especially seeing as half my problem is simply laziness...
> 
> 
> Don't die! You have so much to live for! THINK OF THIS THREAD!!
> 
> 
> Oh that is NOT ON.
> 
> Back in high school I had a friend who was chronically late. No time management whatsoever. Used to regularly sweet-talk teachers into giving them extensions and everything. We got to the point where we'd tell them we'd be there an hour earlier than we intended, just so they'd be nearly ready when we picked them up.
> 
> 
> I can sympathise! Honestly I could probably deal with the maziness of it all, but the crowds and the pollution would be definite minuses in my book. I grew up in a rural area so a lot of my neighbours and acquaintances also rejected better-name universities in bigger cities, in favour of smaller unis in smaller communities.
> 
> 
> The discomfort of using a touch screen is my only real barrier to wanting a smart phone. I already make too many typos and I know it's worse with a touch screen! Plus the feeling of swiping my fingers across the screen weirds me out. But everyone thinks I'm crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! And I haven't had this problem with only her, either. Kinda has me at the point where I'm questioning my own communication skills, but I've just been talking with one of my sisters and it seems like this kind of tunnel vision might actually be quite common.
> 
> The downside of having the freedom to choose who I spend my time around. I forget how terrible people can be.
> 
> 
> You give me hope! But I think you're a better person than I am. Nice that you can claim leadership skills at any rate, even if it's not a lot of fun for you.
> 
> 
> .... Ew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dust mites was one of my mother's little paranoia thingies when we were young. Probably because of the asthma.
> 
> I think just existing here is enough for dust to gather. I've never had this in any other country I've been in. Like you vacuum one day and the next you start seeing the dust bunnies creep in. It's like an invasion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phew! Well I don't mind, if people overshare with me. I just feel awkward when it's me opening myself up.
> 
> 
> Yes that is perfect! I have a similar collection but most are packed away in cardboard boxes at my parents' place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't been able to bring them all over with me.
> 
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree. I just don't know how to enforce it. Taking tests isn't foolproof, and besides I feel a bit weird about having some external authority dictate whether someone else can reproduce/get a pet. But yes, I feel pain for all the children and animals who live in households that should never have gotten them.
> 
> 
> I personally understand it, but I can also understand why some people might not feel strongly towards one gender or another, and it bothers me when some other people get all judgemental and dismiss it purely because _they_ don't feel that way.
> 
> I guess I'd explain my own gender identity like, I'm happy to have a female body, and my "soul" (or "essence" or whatever it is) understands itself to be female. But what I don't get is the whole "male/female brain" thing. It weirds me out every time I hear or read it. I don't think my brain has a gender. I think my brain is just a brain. At least it identifies as gender neutral.
> 
> 
> I have no idea how developed mine is. Seems to be relative - sometimes I feel like I'm not terrible with it, but often I feel pretty inadequate.



Very happy about the USA news :ghost3: somehow I managed to miss hearing about it...


Thank you, I plan on having a rematch today. It will be brutal.


Haha, somehow I think I won't be able to do it, purely because it would cost too much and I already have some work experience over a longer period of time in that area, so it would be beneficial to just go for the academic publisher in my city (even though it won't be as interesting...).


Ohhh, I always thought they were indefinite because they were going 'I think' and 'maybe/perhaps'. Maybe I'm wrong. (I didn't know what a subordinate clause was when I started because they don't teach you grammatical terms in England).


I think Ni is very much about filtering down to the most likely outcome. Ne is about expanding it to make it able to fit into a variety of different areas – to make it ubiquitous or to be able to live up to its potential of what it could be. Ne doesn't naturally filter, or if it does it's through Si which is more about carrying an expectation of something, so filtering something into that expectation, but it's sort of Ni reversed in that it goes from past to present rather than present to future.


Good luck! :ghost3: I think it's good to have any kind of extra study behind you, really, including personal/informal study. Try to ignore the teacher (although I know what you mean, when I don't enjoy how someone teaches, it gets really difficult to keep going – I don't know why, is it an Fi thing or something else?).


Haha, it's okay, yesterday's socialising was short – and I do have this thread to think of!


My friend group started doing the same thing! We'd arrange to meet half an hour after we had contacted him so we wouldn't be there for too long before he showed up. On the plus side, he's now stopped all that and is sometimes on time.


Yeah, one of my friends went to a small university in Wales because of wanting not to go to a huge city. I was tempted by Sheffield, but it's quite far away from where I live so getting there would have been difficult (no one in my family drives). University was a bit lackluster for me overall, at least in comparison to college which was the most fun I've ever had in education. (Well, to be fair, I loved one lecturer's classes loads and she was the one who did the personhood and gender one in my last semester, but she was an exception to the general rule of not so great teaching...)


I can understand that, actually. I found the on-screen keyboard quite difficult at first, but it's not too bad now. I don't really do the swipe thing because I don't have anything on there to search for. I just text, call and take photos with it.


Oh no, I hope it's not common. I'll find work difficult if it is...


Haha, I did have the moment when I was told by some newer friends that they missed me and was shocked, then was shocked because I was shocked at hearing friends actually missed me...


Noooo, I'm definitely not a better person. I just had a lot of stress in my teenage years that led to excessive use of my inferior function, which eventually developed into almost good usage when I got out of the stressful period.


If the dust bunnies are actually like that picture, then I'd like some! :ghost3: I had asthma when I was younger (and kind of still do a little bit, but it's rare it acts up now) so my mum got these anti-dust bed cover things... I still don't know how they repel dust though. Japan was very dusty, but here it's not so bad. Maybe just because most of my electrical equipment is downstairs.


I don't mind other people over sharing either. Maybe it's a sort of self-control thing? 'I must have self control, but it's fine if you don't'?


Oh no, that's lame! I really enjoy small ornaments just being there. There's something comforting about them (is this Si?!).


I don't think I've actually met anyone who's judgemental about people strongly identifying with a gender (oh no, wait, there was a girl in my last class who said transgender people didn't exist). For me it's a sort of disassociated, vaguely clinical interest in how people work in that sense. I don't have strong feelings on people identifying with whatever gender, or none at all, or on gender itself (it's more of one of many topics of study rather than, say, a passionate interest). I do mind when people say gender and sex are the same though (or that thing you said about female/male brains).


That was a good explanation about how you identify. It was very helpful :ghost3: I don't like not understanding things and it's very difficult for me to empathise with gender identification (whereas other areas of empathy are usually very easy for me... it's a bit frustrating).



How would you say it generally comes across, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious about inferior functions.




shinynotshiny said:


> Also, I think poetry can go both ways.
> 
> *[Edit]* Ni poem? Or Ne?
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orange in the middle of a table:
> 
> It isn't enough
> to walk around it
> at a distance, saying
> it's an orange:
> nothing to do
> with us, nothing
> else: leave it alone
> 
> I want to pick it up
> in my hand
> I want to peel the
> skin off; I want
> more to be said to me
> than just Orange:
> want to be told
> everything it has to say
> And you, sitting across
> the table, at a distance, with
> your smile contained, and like the orange
> in the sun: silent:
> 
> Your silence
> isn't enough for me
> now, no matter with what
> contentment you fold
> your hands together; I want
> anything you can say
> in the sunlight:
> stories of your various
> childhoods, aimless journeyings,
> your loves; your articulate
> skeleton; your posturings; your lies.
> 
> These orange silences
> (sunlight and hidden smile)
> make me want to
> wrench you into saying;
> now I'd crack your skull
> like a walnut, split it like a pumpkin
> to make you talk, or get
> a look inside
> 
> But quietly:
> if I take the orange
> with care enough and hold it
> gently
> 
> I may find
> an egg
> a sun
> an orange moon
> perhaps a skull; center
> of all energy
> resting in my hand
> 
> can change it to
> whatever I desire
> it to be
> 
> and you, man, orange afternoon
> lover, wherever
> you sit across from me
> (tables, trains, buses)
> 
> if I watch
> quietly enough
> and long enough
> 
> at last, you will say
> (maybe without speaking)
> 
> (there are mountains
> inside your skull
> garden and chaos, ocean
> and hurricane; certain
> corners of rooms, portraits
> of great grandmothers, curtains
> of a particular shade;
> your deserts; your private
> dinosaurs; the first
> woman)
> 
> all I need to know
> tell me
> everything
> just as it was
> from the beginning.


Some kind of Pe function, maybe Ne? It's very big.

I quite like poetry, but only if it has a good rhythm.

I also saw people recommending comedy shows. The IT Crowd is a very good one :ghost3:


----------



## orbit

@laurie17, you always impress

(ps could anyone recommend people to mention for Socionics?)


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> @_laurie17_, you always impress
> 
> (ps could anyone recommend people to mention for Socionics?)


Haha, thanks :laughing:
@shinynotshiny I finally replied to your 80Q!

(Maybe Word Dispenser or Entropic?)


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> Haha, thanks :laughing:
> @shinynotshiny I finally replied to your 80Q!
> 
> (Maybe Word Dispenser or Entropic?)


(Thank you!)


----------



## Adena

@Greyhart Frasier is awesome. @Retsu is the Frasier genius.


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Do you like IXTPs more than IXFPs? I'm curious. :wink:


Not necessarily. 

Jenny bottles things up. She cannot rationalize through her own feelings, so often that bleeds over into being angry at people who had nothing to do with it. That annoys me.



Curiphant said:


> Angelcat hates me :hampster:














Oswin said:


> Should we return to the topic of cognitive functions, particularly Ni now?


Lets.

How do you remember things? Objectively? Detached? Or is there some connection involved in your past?


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> Haha, thanks :laughing:
> @_shinynotshiny_ I finally replied to your 80Q!
> 
> (Maybe Word Dispenser or Entropic?)


Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it, especially because everyone is so against taking the questionnaire seriously 

Your analysis does seem to fit what I always felt about myself. I'm curious if you think it was extremely different from the original 21Q? (If you read it.)


----------



## orbit

My responses: I'm not ESI and I'm an ISFJ.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> My responses: I'm not ESI and I'm an ISFJ.


:starbucks:


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> :starbucks:


Sometimes you go around in circles


----------



## Adena

My parents has been more than annoying lately. I think my mother actually hates me for whatever reason.

Anyway, today I asked them if I can cut my own hair. The said no. Guess what I did?


----------



## 68097

Gray Romantic said:


> My parents has been more than annoying lately. I think my mother actually hates me for whatever reason.
> 
> Anyway, today I asked them if I can cut my own hair. They said no. Guess what I did?


Gee, I wonder why that is.


----------



## orbit

I don't think I'll fully get MBTI because I'm focused on how it works in the situation


----------



## Adena

angelcat said:


> Gee, I wonder why that is.


Teen rebellion has started.


----------



## orbit

Gray Romantic said:


> Teen rebellion has started.


I cut my hair just to see what would happen. Nothing happened. Well I regretted it. 

For some reason, I thought that everything I had done amounted to nothing so therefore I could do anything and it wouldn't matter. Wow.


----------



## 68097

Gray Romantic said:


> Teen rebellion has started.


That reminds me of something I wanted to ask last night... does anyone mind saying how old they are? I'm kind of curious.

I'm 32.


----------



## orbit

You are two times older than me.


----------



## Bugs

angelcat said:


> That reminds me of something I wanted to ask last night... does anyone mind saying how old they are? I'm kind of curious.
> 
> I'm 32.


33


----------



## Bugs

Curiphant said:


> You are two times older than me.


Aww you're so young.


----------



## Bugs

Double post


----------



## 68097

Bugs said:


> 33


DAMN! You beat me by a year?!

Let's see if anyone else is older still.


----------



## Adena

I'm 17 in September haha


----------



## Immolate

Younglings.


----------



## ElliCat

I'm in my late 20's.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm 19 going on 5.


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Thank you, I plan on having a rematch today. It will be brutal.


I BELIEVE IN YOU!!



> Haha, somehow I think I won't be able to do it, purely because it would cost too much and I already have some work experience over a longer period of time in that area, so it would be beneficial to just go for the academic publisher in my city (even though it won't be as interesting...).


 Oh, that's a pity. So I'll hope for a miracle then?



> Ohhh, I always thought they were indefinite because they were going 'I think' and 'maybe/perhaps'. Maybe I'm wrong. (I didn't know what a subordinate clause was when I started because they don't teach you grammatical terms in England).


 Yeah definite articles are like "the", and indefinite are like "a, some". So I guess it's vague in the sense that you don't know how many of the item they're referring to?

It looks like you're referring to adverbials of probability. At least that's the only relevant thing that came up when I Googled those kinds of words. Like you, I didn't actually learn any grammatical terms in English class... another reason for studying as many foreign languages as possible, it's how I learn my grammar. Hence me giving French and Spanish examples of indefinite articles before thinking to give them in English. 



> I think Ni is very much about filtering down to the most likely outcome. Ne is about expanding it to make it able to fit into a variety of different areas – to make it ubiquitous or to be able to live up to its potential of what it could be. Ne doesn't naturally filter, or if it does it's through Si which is more about carrying an expectation of something, so filtering something into that expectation, but it's sort of Ni reversed in that it goes from past to present rather than present to future.


 Can't argue with that.



> Good luck! :ghost3: I think it's good to have any kind of extra study behind you, really, including personal/informal study. Try to ignore the teacher (although I know what you mean, when I don't enjoy how someone teaches, it gets really difficult to keep going – I don't know why, is it an Fi thing or something else?).


 I have a similar mentality, in that I don't see anything I've learned in the past as a waste, especially if I was really interested in it. Like my first degree is useless on paper but I see it more as learning life skills, so still worth the debt. And all the extra-curricular activities I took when I was younger gave me some great skills, different avenues of self-expression, and a boost in self-esteem. No way they could ever be a waste even if I never make a career out of any of them. Everything has its place in my brain.

I do think Fi gets a bit "njeh, I don't FEEEEEEEL like it" when they dislike a teacher or class atmosphere. Once someone starts annoying me I become more and more aggravated by it if I can't get away. That distracts me from the course content and makes it difficult to motivate myself to keep going with it. So if I'm stuck with them for extended periods of time, it can come across as an almost violent hatred for them, only for it to quickly subside to a "meh, it doesn't bother me, I wish them the best in their life far away from me" when I no longer have to deal with them.



> My friend group started doing the same thing! We'd arrange to meet half an hour after we had contacted him so we wouldn't be there for too long before he showed up. On the plus side, he's now stopped all that and is sometimes on time.














> Yeah, one of my friends went to a small university in Wales because of wanting not to go to a huge city. I was tempted by Sheffield, but it's quite far away from where I live so getting there would have been difficult (no one in my family drives). University was a bit lackluster for me overall, at least in comparison to college which was the most fun I've ever had in education. (Well, to be fair, I loved one lecturer's classes loads and she was the one who did the personhood and gender one in my last semester, but she was an exception to the general rule of not so great teaching...)


 Oh, so what's the difference between college and university there? I've been to a university and now I'm at a polytechnic. I'm not impressed with the level of teaching here so far - most teachers range from terrible to just okay, with maybe one or two who I would actually say are very good. And of course it's only the very good ones who are begging us for negative feedback because they want to know how to improve. :ssad: Uni was a bit hit-or-miss teaching-quality-wise - some very good ones and some very ordinary ones too.

Where I come from you pretty much need a car. I was weird for not getting my learner's permit until I was 19 or 20. Most of my classmates took time off school as soon as they hit the minimum age limit to go take the tests. I drove a lot when I was living with my parents but I don't do it very much now, because my city's public transport is pretty good, especially from my neighbourhood. I'd probably drive more often if I wa travelling long distances, though. Trains are more convenient for me but also bloody expensive.



> I can understand that, actually. I found the on-screen keyboard quite difficult at first, but it's not too bad now. I don't really do the swipe thing because I don't have anything on there to search for. I just text, call and take photos with it.


 I try to avoid calling if possible. I mostly text and (try to) look stuff up online. I'd probably actually use more apps and the internet if I had a smart phone. The camera on my phone isn't very good so I keep forgetting I can take photos, heh.



> Oh no, I hope it's not common. I'll find work difficult if it is...


 Oh I don't mean to scare you! I honestly think it depends on the workplace. My current co-workers don't seem to be into the cattiness or backstabbing and all just want things to work smoothly. I've been in some places where you couldn't trust people, or they were nice to your face but turned on you as soon as you said something they didn't like. I guess for me it's been half-and-half. That's mostly in retail, though. Publishing might be a bit different.



> Haha, I did have the moment when I was told by some newer friends that they missed me and was shocked, then was shocked because I was shocked at hearing friends actually missed me...


 Awww. I'd believe it!

I'm still in my childhood/teenage mentality where I'm used to people not liking me, so I'm always surprised when they do, even though that's been the way it's worked for the last 5 - 10 years. Weird how that short period in your life stays with you so persistently.



> Noooo, I'm definitely not a better person. I just had a lot of stress in my teenage years that led to excessive use of my inferior function, which eventually developed into almost good usage when I got out of the stressful period.


 Well I'm spending quite a bit of time in the grip so hopefully this will be worth it in the end! :rollseyes:



> If the dust bunnies are actually like that picture, then I'd like some! :ghost3: I had asthma when I was younger (and kind of still do a little bit, but it's rare it acts up now) so my mum got these anti-dust bed cover things... I still don't know how they repel dust though. Japan was very dusty, but here it's not so bad. Maybe just because most of my electrical equipment is downstairs.


 Heh, maybe not quite that cute, but almost that big? 

My asthma sounds like yours. Constantly trying to kill me as a kid, but I grew out of it as an adult and now it just pops up after I get sick to remind me that it still exists. Technically I think I'm supposed to be taking a preventative but I don't even do that unless I feel I'm at risk of it flaring up.

Although I got a tight chest at work the other day and freaked out and took 4 puffs of Ventolin. Heart started racing after a couple of minutes and I spent the whole afternoon shaking. Used to take a lot more than that to affect me. Kid ElliCat was officially more hardcore than Adult ElliCat. :hampster:



> I don't mind other people over sharing either. Maybe it's a sort of self-control thing? 'I must have self control, but it's fine if you don't'?


 YES that is exactly what it is! I demand perfection from myself but DUH nobody's perfect why would I ever expect it of anyone else?



> Oh no, that's lame! I really enjoy small ornaments just being there. There's something comforting about them (is this Si?!).


 Maaaybe? I dunno.



> I don't think I've actually met anyone who's judgemental about people strongly identifying with a gender (oh no, wait, there was a girl in my last class who said transgender people didn't exist). For me it's a sort of disassociated, vaguely clinical interest in how people work in that sense. I don't have strong feelings on people identifying with whatever gender, or none at all, or on gender itself (it's more of one of many topics of study rather than, say, a passionate interest). I do mind when people say gender and sex are the same though (or that thing you said about female/male brains).


 I don't have strong feelings on it either, but I have strong feelings on people having strong feelings on it, I guess? Like it honestly doesn't bother me how people identify, because they are what they are, but I really don't like it when people start imposing their own opinions on how others should identify. I don't know if I just said exactly what you said. I think I might have. 



> That was a good explanation about how you identify. It was very helpful :ghost3: I don't like not understanding things and it's very difficult for me to empathise with gender identification (whereas other areas of empathy are usually very easy for me... it's a bit frustrating).


I think that's pretty natural... dare I say especially for Fi-dom? Or INFP? The whole wanting to understand everyone's mental process but also having trouble empathising with really foreign mindsets?




> How would you say it generally comes across, if you don't mind my asking? I'm curious about inferior functions.


 Hmmm, I don't know how much I've talked about this before (I hate repeating myself but I guess it can't be avoided here). I've noticed a tendency to think out loud, especially when I'm trying to plan things out or figure out the most efficient way to go about something. It also manifests as an insecurity in my own practicality and... I don't know what the right word is here, I don't know if I want to say "intelligence" or "logic", but something along those lines? Like I want to be good at it and I would like to think that I'm good at it, but I feel like I'm probably weak in that area? Oh and when I try to be succinct and no-nonsense, it just comes across as blunt and insensitive. So I kind of blame it for those moments in which I'm unintentionally offensive. I never mean to hurt someone's feelings, but it seems like I either have to choose between waffling uncertainty (Ne?) or brutal honesty, so sometimes it just happens.

And then of course when I'm stressed, hypercritical attitude and impatience with other people's incompetence and inefficiency. 

Poetry.... used to recite a lot of it when I was younger, in drama classes and exams. Not a huge fan of most of it, but a few poems stuck to me and won't let go.


----------



## fair phantom

angelcat said:


> That reminds me of something I wanted to ask last night... does anyone mind saying how old they are? I'm kind of curious.
> 
> I'm 32.


29.


----------



## Dangerose

20 (almost 21)
@fair phantom, I didn't hate Casablanca or anything, I just...hm, my brother and I just had a long conversation about how people in old movies don't act (unless they're Jimmy Stewart), the camera just zooms in on their blank face and we're meant to go, "Oh, he's holding back his feelings! How indicative of their depth! Oh, she's not showing her...anger? heartbreak? Ah, how touching!" and...I watched the whole thing because it's a classic and you should but I just almost died of boredom. I didn't really like Gone with the Wind either :/
@angelcat, I just don't know. Today I'm feeling like an SJ, but the other day I felt like an NJ. I don't know.
I did use to save old like...I had notebooks where I'd just copied Latin declension tables or something and I'd keep them because 'someday when I'm old I'll want to look back at these and see how clever I was just like in Flowers for Algernon because losing Latin is the first thing that happens to you and reminisce on my sweet youth' or maybe my children will want this piece of me. (I eventually threw them out because that was dumb). I mean, I have a lot of pre-emptive nostalgia in that way (though I've grown out of it a bit) but I don't know if the actual past I've had is particularly...holy for me. I mean...the cities I've lived in are 'my cities' for instance. And I love them, but I think it's because I've learned to love them, not because I associate them with the past. 

But maybe it is Si? Like, if I'm choosing a hotel, the first hotel I'll choose if it's an option is "Courtyard by Marriott" because that's where we'd always stay in Phoenix when we went there and as a child that name sounded so romantic to me and it still sounds a little bit like magic) Obviously, that's silly, but I do have a sentimental attachment to that hotel chain, just because it was the most convenient place to stay for my family when I was a child. 

Right now it really feels like Si, yeah? 

I also really like to memorize poetry)


----------



## Darkbloom

@Oswin, I can relate to that nostalgia that's not really nostalgia, and some sort of caring about tradition but tradition that's not _my_ tradition or my impressions,but just...tradition lol,objectively
edit: I enjoyed memorizing things before, poetry and such, I knew my favourite poems and stories by heart and liked reciting them


Btw also 20


----------



## Apple Pine

Living dead said:


> I enjoyed memorizing things before, poetry and such, I knew my favourite poems and stories by heart and liked reciting them


Felt like I'd mention this: INFJ I know very well would say the same.


----------



## Darkbloom

woogiefox said:


> Felt like I'd mention this: INFJ I know very well would say the same.


I think it's just a thing,possibly even beta quadra dramatic thing haha, I don't think there's anything particularly Si about memorizing things when you have nothing better to do anyway, especially if I plan on reciting it later.
I don't know, I feel like every time someone says "memory" or "tradition" it's Si, but why would it be?
It depends on what those things mean to you, why you care


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> You talk about how you don't like Fe, but I think it is pretty clear you have fondness for Bear and some other fe users. So maybe you will. :bwink:


It's true, I do have a sort of fondness for people like her. But, well, it's like this, I don't consider birth to be that monumental an event, so the first episode of this show really didn't grab me. And the shows I do really like either appeal to my emotions through deep personal stories, or have the intrigue of mental gymnastics that Death Note does. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Apology accepted.
> 
> Hello everyone! Sleep is lovely.
> 
> @Barakiel I understand what you were saying with that one question. no worries. it's nice to know that I seem functional and not very depressed _now_. I like to think that I've made a lot of progress with managing my depression. :victorious:


Just felt it was worth mentioning. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Jenny bottles things up. She cannot rationalize through her own feelings, so often that bleeds over into being angry at people who had nothing to do with it. That annoys me.


That's how ISFPs are. Look at Harry Potter, prime example. :laughing: Though I do understand how it would annoy someone with Ti.


----------



## Apple Pine

Living dead said:


> I think it's just a thing,possibly even beta quadra dramatic thing haha, I don't think there's anything particularly Si about memorizing things when you have nothing better to do anyway, especially if I plan on reciting it later.
> I don't know, I feel like every time someone says "memory" or "tradition" it's Si, but why would it be?
> It depends on what those things mean to you, why you care


Maybe, I know nothing about socionics 

Yea, described as tradition or memory, because:
They look at something, and remember sensory experience. They have to do something - they try to remember how they like to do that, as that's the past experience, which they highly trust. That's why Si users like stability, they looks at the past, hence they rarely choose a new way of doing something. Taken from Entropic's thread, they store the perfect taste of the food in their memory, and when they cook it, taste it, even if it's just slightly too salty, they will know that.

Eh..


----------



## Barakiel

woogiefox said:


> Maybe, I know nothing about socionics


I am obliged to post this.


----------



## Apple Pine

Barakiel said:


> I am obliged to post this.


I anticipated that...


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> 20 (almost 21)
> @fair phantom, I didn't hate Casablanca or anything, I just...hm, my brother and I just had a long conversation about how people in old movies don't act (unless they're Jimmy Stewart), the camera just zooms in on their blank face and we're meant to go, "Oh, he's holding back his feelings! How indicative of their depth! Oh, she's not showing her...anger? heartbreak? Ah, how touching!" and...I watched the whole thing because it's a classic and you should but I just almost died of boredom. I didn't really like Gone with the Wind either :/


HAHAH. My mother complains about old movies in the same way -- she doesn't think the acting is bad, but she is annoyed by those LONG pauses on an actor's face as they "stare blankly off into the distance, to express some emotion." OH THE DRAMA.

But... wait, no, you didn't like GWTW. I shall never speak to you again! Starting tomorrow! 



> @angelcat, I just don't know. Today I'm feeling like an SJ, but the other day I felt like an NJ. I don't know. I did use to save old like...I had notebooks where I'd just copied Latin declension tables or something and I'd keep them because 'someday when I'm old I'll want to look back at these and see how clever I was just like in Flowers for Algernon because losing Latin is the first thing that happens to you and reminisce on my sweet youth' or maybe my children will want this piece of me. (I eventually threw them out because that was dumb). I mean, I have a lot of pre-emptive nostalgia in that way (though I've grown out of it a bit) but I don't know if the actual past I've had is particularly...holy for me. I mean...the cities I've lived in are 'my cities' for instance. And I love them, but I think it's because I've learned to love them, not because I associate them with the past.
> 
> But maybe it is Si? Like, if I'm choosing a hotel, the first hotel I'll choose if it's an option is "Courtyard by Marriott" because that's where we'd always stay in Phoenix when we went there and as a child that name sounded so romantic to me and it still sounds a little bit like magic) Obviously, that's silly, but I do have a sentimental attachment to that hotel chain, just because it was the most convenient place to stay for my family when I was a child.
> 
> Right now it really feels like Si, yeah?
> 
> I also really like to memorize poetry)


I think different people can be sentimental for different reasons, and that falls into different cognitions. Like, keeping something from their childhood might be Fi in one person and Si in another.

The socionics description for Si actually is more ... interesting to me than the MBTI one, because it focuses more on how you desire your environment to leave you with pleasant inner sensations; you want to be around things that make you feel at peace or happy. You want to touch things that make you feel something inside, and not touch things that you hate. So, stroking a cat might bring you a pleasant sensation, thus you want cats around your house, but thinking that polyester "feels like gasoline" against your skin might make you avoid buying any clothes that have polyester in them. Does that make sense?

For me, the process of memory is ... triggering. (This is going to be Si and Fe, so ...) 

My memories are a blur apart from significant moments and events that left a sensory impression on me -- like, I remember when the phone rang to tell us that my grandparents had been in a car accident and she was dead. It had rained and it smelled like damp earth and rain. I remember standing in the hall, in shock, listening to one side of the phone conversation. I remember hearing my mother's voice break, as she sank down onto the end of the couch. That is the only time she ever did anything like that, and I remember it strongly. It so impacted me that I'm tearing up just reliving it. I remember standing there thinking, "Mom is breaking down... she's crying... why doesn't anyone take the phone out of her hand? Why doesn't Dad do it?" ... but I couldn't move. I felt helpless. And, I don't even know if what I remember is what happened. But that's the impression it left me with. Rain. Tears. Damp earth. Pain. 

Elsewhere on this thread, taste is mentioned. That is so true. Mom will tamper with recipes, I'll take one bite and say, "_What did you do_?!" It tastes different. _Wrong_. Or better. But ... gee whiz, Mom, too much saffron!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I get so frustrated (not really but) when people say like "oh you're a Jon Snow" if someone doesn't know much. Jon Snow didn't not know anything, he just knew nothing from Ygritte's eyes. He represented the ignorance of Westeros, and was actually more open-minded than the majority of them would be. Ygritte knew nothing about the bowers too  

I mean I know it's a joke and a saying and that's about it, but it still makes me go "sigh."


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> No, really, my comfort is one of the last things I feel is important, and I'll more often than not put up with things I shouldn't. I've fainted in public because I ignore my needs. I'll say no more than that.


*shrug*

Maybe not a Si-dom then. I never really thought you were, so it's no skin off my nose. =P



> I'll be gone for a while because I have to take care of a sick family member. Not sure when I'll be back. Excuse any lack of response. Until next time, PerC.


Hope they get better soon.

@alittlebear: I do love you, you know that, but... it had to be done. And technically, it's not ON your thread. 

*sits back and grins, far too amused with herself*


----------



## Dragheart Luard

Curiphant said:


> What did you expect, old man?


He should be grateful that you didn't call him old fart for trolling XD


----------



## Apple Pine

angelcat said:


> *shrug*
> 
> Maybe not a Si-dom then. I never really thought you were, so it's no skin off my nose. =P
> 
> 
> 
> Hope they get better soon.
> 
> @alittlebear: I do love you, you know that, but... it had to be done. And technically, it's not ON your thread.
> 
> *sits back and grins, far too amused with herself*


Finally, an avatar with some meaning.


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> *shrug*
> 
> Maybe not a Si-dom then. I never really thought you were, so it's no skin off my nose. =P
> 
> 
> 
> Hope they get better soon.
> 
> @alittlebear: I do love you, you know that, but... it had to be done. And technically, it's not ON your thread.
> 
> *sits back and grins, far too amused with herself*


Play nice, Grandma


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> HAHAH. My mother complains about old movies in the same way -- she doesn't think the acting is bad, but she is annoyed by those LONG pauses on an actor's face as they "stare blankly off into the distance, to express some emotion." OH THE DRAMA.
> 
> But... wait, no, you didn't like GWTW. I shall never speak to you again! Starting tomorrow!
> 
> 
> 
> I think different people can be sentimental for different reasons, and that falls into different cognitions. Like, keeping something from their childhood might be Fi in one person and Si in another.
> 
> The socionics description for Si actually is more ... interesting to me than the MBTI one, because it focuses more on how you desire your environment to leave you with pleasant inner sensations; you want to be around things that make you feel at peace or happy. You want to touch things that make you feel something inside, and not touch things that you hate. So, stroking a cat might bring you a pleasant sensation, thus you want cats around your house, but thinking that polyester "feels like gasoline" against your skin might make you avoid buying any clothes that have polyester in them. Does that make sense?
> 
> For me, the process of memory is ... triggering. (This is going to be Si and Fe, so ...)
> 
> My memories are a blur apart from significant moments and events that left a sensory impression on me -- like, I remember when the phone rang to tell us that my grandparents had been in a car accident and she was dead. It had rained and it smelled like damp earth and rain. I remember standing in the hall, in shock, listening to one side of the phone conversation. I remember hearing my mother's voice break, as she sank down onto the end of the couch. That is the only time she ever did anything like that, and I remember it strongly. It so impacted me that I'm tearing up just reliving it. I remember standing there thinking, "Mom is breaking down... she's crying... why doesn't anyone take the phone out of her hand? Why doesn't Dad do it?" ... but I couldn't move. I felt helpless. And, I don't even know if what I remember is what happened. But that's the impression it left me with. Rain. Tears. Damp earth. Pain.
> 
> Elsewhere on this thread, taste is mentioned. That is so true. Mom will tamper with recipes, I'll take one bite and say, "_What did you do_?!" It tastes different. _Wrong_. Or better. But ... gee whiz, Mom, too much saffron!


Haha yep) 
:'(

Honestly, MBTI Si fits me much better than Socionics Si. Socionics Si...kinda creeps me out. Hearing the phrase "pleasant inner sensations" gives me an unpleasant inner sensation. I like stroking cats: I am doing so now even! but if I was thinking of it as a _sensation_ that would kinda weird me out, I like it because the cat is purring and showing that she loves me, it's like, "me and the cat hanging out" not "me and the cat sharing a pleasant physical sensation" :exterminate: I was going to do a disgusted smiley but then I saw the Dalek one which was just better if less fitting.

Like, I really think I'm not an ESE in Socionics because the descriptions..just sound nothing like me. I'm never quite clear on whether you can be one type in Socionics and another in MBTI. All of this on Wikisocion sounds _very much_ like me, but some of it sounds like what I think of as MBTI Si-Ne:



> EIEs have a keen sense of the significance of the moment, life's flow of events, and the past and future evolution of things. The excitement they stimulate generally has to do with insensible things that can only be perceived over time, rather than with experiences that are captured in a specific moment. For example, they love to instill confidence in people by taking great detail to their problems and envisioning ways of handling them. EIEs are quite able to "paint pictures with words", so to speak. *They enjoy having objects around them that provide a connection to the past, such as ancient trinkets or souvenirs, old-fashioned things, and items from another time and place. They like to be aware of and talk about their place in history, as the EIE's concept of humanity itself is largely perceived through the sensation of trends over time. As a result, they like to imagine scenarios of different ways a situation can unfold with their imagination; such actions give them a sense of security about what is to come.*
> 
> EIEs are very open about their feelings of hesitation, apprehension, anticipation, and anxiety regarding events. Sometimes they are melodramatic about risks and dangers, but this helps them and those around them to be aware of and to prepare for possible negative turns of events. It disappoints the EIE greatly when advice given to another is rejected, but not much weighs a helpful EIE down more than to see people wasting their potential by dwelling in their past problems. They tend to believe that people, regardless of long-term psychological mistreatment, can improve their lives to some extent.
> 
> EIEs reject the idea that life is just a sequence of ho-hum everyday events with no particular meaning. They see everything to having a grand or symbolic purpose that arouses the imagination and passions. For that matter, EIEs seek to define their unique purpose in life, and orient goals around the meaning they infer from their experiences across time. They constantly seek to improve the negative conditions surrounding them, and so tend to look for problems even when it isn't necessary.
> 
> EIEs also frequently reflect on their dreams, making symoblizations of the events that occur in dreams and relating them to external reality. They enjoy contemplating on what their subconscious psyche is displaying to them.


The only thing that doesn't sound like me is that I don't really think about what could go wrong. I mean, I tend to assume things will turn out ok in the end. I make it my policy to assume the worst of any situation, so I won't be disappointed and can only be pleasantly surprised. But I also don't like to be reminded of the possibility for failure at the start of a new project, because that makes me feel like I've failed already. For instance, I don't want to be told, "You might not get straight As, you'll get a couple Bs probably" because it's like the clean slate has been dirtied up a bit. Which...I guess could be either.

I do put a bit more credence in my dreams than they probably merit. But I think it's because my dreams inform me of my psychological state. I know I'm at a crisis point and will need to work things out if I have a very alarming dream, or certain dreams can tell me things are better (for instance, I kept having dreams that I was given a number of kittens/polar bear cubs/etc. and they would run away and I would find some, but not all of them. Then one night I had a dream that I was given a number of kittens and such and they ran away and I found all of them before I woke up. That was a sign to me (I took it as a sign) that things were sorted out in my mind and I should start making my plans for the future, I wouldn't be getting in my own way. 

It might be a placebo effect but it feels accurate to me. Night Huntress mentioned in my thread about imprint vulnerability, that ENFJs are likely to go, "a sign pointing to Seattle -- I should move to Seattle!" and I definitely have that from time to time. Not that moving to Seattle is a stupid idea, I am thinking about it)

Sorry, tangent, but yeah) Those are some things)


----------



## orbit

By the way, I don't relate to many characters either. 

I related to one character sort of because she had the same tone of voice as I did and I related to Fi quite a bit. I didn't relate her to actions, and I thought they were unreasonable but... I felt a connection.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

BTW @Curiphant, if I recall well you mentioned being interested in stuff related to chemistry. If you decide to go that route, I hope that organic chemistry doesn't troll you. That thing was the bane of my existence.


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> Play nice, Grandma


Children should be seen and not heard. 

@Oswin: I don't really relate that well to MBTI Si, because a lot of it places emphasis on tradition, with the implication that tradition is through action, and I don't necessarily go in for that. It's more like... engrained social understanding that I struggle to shift around when it is directly confronted; I naturally am disposed to more archetypical and traditional manners of THINKING, as opposed to traditional behaviors. People hear 'tradition' and think -- oh, you do the same thing every year for Christmas, but for me it's more like... I ascribe to traditional methods of thinking and perception, such as the idea of gender roles, and if I encounter something that invalidates or conflicts with that thinking, it strikes me as ... WRONG, until I can wrap my mind around it.

Like, the persistent thought that guys like to watch guy movies, not costume dramas. Never mind that I know plenty of men who watch costume dramas, including my own father, GUYS LIKE GUY MOVIES. That's the kind of irrational BS I have to deal with in myself on a regular basis. It's hilarious but also kind of sad. GIRLS... GIRLS LIKE CHICK FLICKS, GUYS LIKE BLOW UP MOVIES.

Never mind that I like both. 

ETA: That's also why I have no problem with the older man/younger woman pairing. They did it for centuries. It worked, because the man was old enough to have acquired a profession or wealth and the woman young enough to have children. So it's never remotely weirded me out.

Re: sex on "The Tudors." There is too much of it. I don't have to see it anymore, though, since I put the entire four seasons through editing software and took out all the smut. Did the same for GOT and yes, there is plot left.


----------



## orbit

Blue Flare said:


> BTW @Curiphant, if I recall well you mentioned being interested in stuff related to chemistry. If you decide to go that route, I hope that organic chemistry doesn't troll you. That thing was the bane of my existence.


I start in the lab next week n.n 

My grandfather taught that and my dad calls it the hardest course I think?


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Ummm... did I just witness Henry (Tudors S1 E10) masturbating and having a servent catch his 'giz'? What in the world?  lol
> 
> And yes. I heart Dany 4 ever.


OH YEAH I NOTICED THAT SCENE TOO I think that was the last episode I watched (coincidence?)
That show had a lot of sex. The first episode alone...I thought the scenes where the guards were outside the door were funny though, what a delightful job...)


----------



## Persephone Soul

I do relate to characters. When I am watching a show/movie, I imagine myself inside the story and how i would react etc. When I see a character act identically to the way i would, I love it. My kids do this too with their shows. They are definite ISJ's. My BFF and I did this growing up too. Actually me and all my childhood friends did. half are def introverts (which I def still see myself as, just not cognitively), half are extroverts. Pretty sure all but one is a sensor. 

I am so behind on the thread, that when I comment, everyone has moved on from the topic. lol .

Carry on...


----------



## Dangerose

I relate to fictional characters all the time...there's always one character in a thing who is 'me'...I don't like it when I can't relate...


----------



## Persephone Soul

Oswin said:


> I relate to fictional characters all the time...there's always one character in a thing who is 'me'...I don't like it when I can't relate...


Yep. It feels like I don't get the story, or song, or poem etc, if I cant see myself in it.


----------



## 68097

You two are proving my extroverts-relating-to-characters theory, lol.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Blue Flare said:


> BTW @Curiphant, if I recall well you mentioned being interested in stuff related to chemistry. If you decide to go that route, I hope that organic chemistry doesn't troll you. That thing was the bane of my existence.


My friend is taking that now and he cannot stand it. The poor thing.


----------



## orbit

Alittlebear reminds me of Francie Nolan kind of


----------



## Dragheart Luard

alittlebear said:


> My friend is taking that now and he cannot stand it. The poor thing.


Organic chemistry caused me information overload, and trying to figure out the synthetic paths gave me headaches. Students usually hate physical chemistry, but it makes more sense to me lol


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curi and I have an ENFP friend who claims she is every character. Every. Character. Every Mary Sue character, ha. She says she has to relate to a character to love a character. 

I actually love vulnerable characters. That's what I need to love them. Probably because I'm more in tuned to my vulnerabilities than a lot of people are.


----------



## Persephone Soul

**ehemm** like my new avatar. I JUST started watching the Originals. I only related to Rebekah in VD here and there, but so far, 8 episodes in, I relate to her SO much. Now I love the show! I really like Hayley too, and I relate to parts of her as well. But the brokenness of Rebekah. The way she dwells on the past yet puts on the tough bitch facade... is ME. The quote on this pic.. ME. I really like her, BECAUSE she is so relatable.

And yes @Oswin , lots of sex. I am a very sexual person, but IDK. Too graphic as a married woman lol. I fast forward.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Alittlebear reminds me of Francie Nolan kind of


I still have that book. And I still haven't read it. 

What do you think her type is?


----------



## Persephone Soul

@angelcat My BFF and my kids are all introverts (cognitively) all 3 are Si doms lol.. and I am socially... so, hmmm..

My husband is a definite extrovert (not sure which), and I know he is a sensor.. and he could care less lol. I really don't think it is function related. I mean, it seems very dependent open the person, really. I grew up doing this with my group of like 6 best friends. We ALL did it, yet I know our function stacks are very different. And there are a few introverts...? hmmm...


----------



## 68097

I edited the smut out of The Tudors a loooong time ago; so much more enjoyable to me now.


----------



## Barakiel

Now I'm curious as to who I remind people of. @alittlebear, since you asked me, may I return the question? :happy:


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I still have that book. And I still haven't read it.
> 
> What do you think her type is?


Ni Fe?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> Curi and I have an ENFP friend who claims she is every character. Every. Character. Every Mary Sue character, ha. She says she has to relate to a character to love a character.
> 
> I actually love vulnerable characters. That's what I need to love them. Probably because I'm more in tuned to my vulnerabilities than a lot of people are.


Sasha and Max are two very different characters


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> @angelcat My BFF and my kids are all introverts (cognitively) all 3 are Si doms lol.. and I am socially... so, hmmm..
> 
> My husband is a definite extrovert (not sure which), and I know he is a sensor.. and he could care less lol. I really don't think it is function related. I mean, it seems very dependent open the person, really. I grew up doing this with my group of like 6 best friends. We ALL did it, yet I know our function stacks are very different. And there are a few introverts...? hmmm...


*crumples up theory, tosses it over shoulder, moves on*

And YAY for _The Originals_... though for me, it's ALL about Elijah. I bloody love him.



Barakiel said:


> Now I'm curious as to who I remind people of. @alittlebear, since you asked me, may I return the question? :happy:












^ This.
@alittlebear reminds me of:










I realize they're not exactly the same type, but ... Fe-dom is Mary, and Mary is Fe-dom, and @alittlebear is Fe-dom, and Mary is @alittlebear.

And... now @SugarPlum is forever going to remind me of:










... because I can SEE IT.


----------



## fair phantom

I find I can usually relate to characters, even while I am well aware of the ways in which I am very different from them. 

A lot of people relate me to Belle. I've been over how my ability to relate to her has diminished with time/self-knowledge, though her opening song is still very me. (sidenote: where on earth is @hoopla ? I miss hoops :sadcloud

My dad jokingly calls me "Hermione" at times. My other families would also identify me as a Hermione. And indeed I relate to her in many ways and there is a marked Hermione-streak to my personality. But she is way more organized than I am, more trusting of authority, more rigidly logical. I also would have handled the house elves thing quite differently: finding out what they wanted and focusing on empowering house elves like Dobby that actually want freedom. 

A scene that captures how I both relate-and-don't relate to her is in Divination class. I am more intuitive and open-minded so I would have been more willing to go with it, but if Professor Trelawney had said this to me:



> You know, my dear, the moment I looked into your eyes I knew that you did not have the mind for the noble art of Divination.
> [looking at her palm]
> See? Right here. You may be young in years but the heart that beats beneath your bosom is as shriveled as an old maid's, your soul as dry as the pages of the books to which you so desperately cleave.


I would have reacted exactly as Hermione did: I am done with this; dramatic exit. I hate being told that I can't do something, and I would be deeply offended by the second statement, as well as someone having the gall to say it just because of my palm.

It's funny because they are supposed to be opposites, but I relate strongly to both Hermione and Luna. I also relate to Harry because my evil stepmother treated me much like the Dursleys treated Harry and I would have also been indignant and defiant in the face of Malfoy's pureblood elitism. (Overall though, I now realize that the _Harry Potter_ character I am the most like is Bill Weasley. I just didn't realize it because his role in the books is pretty minor).

If you asked my mother and sister which character I am most like I think they would immediately respond with "SYBIL CRAWLEY". My mom in particular has posted several things on facebook saying I am just like Sybil. And she is one of the characters I most relate to, without also _not_ relating to them as with Hermione. Sara Crewe, Anastasia *gestures to avatar*, and Sailor Saturn/Hotaru Tomoe would also fall under that category. Though if we are talking Sailor Moon characters, I am some Saturn/Neptune/Mars hybrid.

Other characters I have been compared to: Rory Gilmore (I used to see it, but the last time I rewatched the series I became very frustrated with her in many ways, though I still like her I am _not_ like her beyond being bookish and smart). Aisling from _The Secret of Kells_, Amélie (again, on a rewatch i noticed how we are unalike, though we are still alike in some ways and I love her to death), Mary Lennox from _The Secret Garden_, Ariel from _The Little Mermaid_, Elizabeth Bennett from _Pride and Prejudice_, other bookish female characters. There are others that elude me right now.

@angelcat Sansa and Baelish are a NOTP for me, but I cackled when i saw your new avatar after bear said no gifs. I appreciate the slyness and sass. :applouse:

@shinynotshiny I FINALLY finished my rough draft of the 80q. Since I answered it in such a broken-up way I'm going to read it over before posting. But it feels like such an accomplishment. Watch it go ignored lol.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> ^ This.
> @alittlebear reminds me of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I realize they're not exactly the same type, but ... Fe-dom is Mary, and Mary is Fe-dom, and @alittlebear is Fe-dom, and Mary is @alittlebear.


I remind you of Harry Potter? What have I been smoking. :dry:

Well, she *is* the quintessential example of Fe. :wink:


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> @angelcat Sansa and Baelish are a NOTP for me, but I cackled when i saw your new avatar after bear said no gifs. I appreciate the slyness and sass. :applause:


Thank you, thank you. I am here all week.



Barakiel said:


> I remind you of Harry Potter? What have I been smoking. :dry:


You're self-contained, like Harry, but I get the vaguest sense of a storm brewing internally at times. You also strike me as BOLD -- but in an introverted way, which reminds me of his casual yet aggressive approach to life.


----------



## orbit

Any connections for the child?


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Any connections for the child?


for some reason the first thing that comes to mind is Violet Baudelaire from _A Series of Unfortunate Events_


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> You're self-contained, like Harry, but I get the vaguest sense of a storm brewing internally at times. You also strike me as BOLD -- but in an introverted way, which reminds me of his casual yet aggressive approach to life.


I think I connect more with Book!Harry than Film!Harry. Yes they're different. I think the films played up his angst to where I can't relate to him, whereas I can relate with him in the books, *except* where Ginny is concerned. Specifically, the part where he says he can't let Umbridge break him. Wish I could find the proper quote, but hey, desperate times. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

It seems I have some time before real life takes me away.

@fair phantom Will you be posting the questionnaire soon? 

@laurie17



> *They also enjoy it when emotions are just understood.* They feel relieved when people can understand them without invading their personal space. They may also have a hard time letting their feelings out, so even if you declare that you like the ISTp several times they may not return the favor, sometimes leaving their partner feeling less appreciated than they really are. It may look like it is hard to please an ISTp on the outside, but that’s only because they don’t show it when you do please them.


Someone once told me I had to say "I love you" everyday and I just :apthy:


On topic: I don't know what you guys are on about.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> On topic: I don't know what you guys are on about.


Do you relate to any one character? I don't know that much about you, so I can't say beyond the fact that you're quite logical. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> Do you relate to any one character? I don't know that much about you, so I can't say beyond the fact that you're quite logical. :happy:


hahahaha logical ahahahaha


I'll get back to you on that.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> @angelcat My BFF and my kids are all introverts (cognitively) all 3 are Si doms lol.. and I am socially... so, hmmm..
> 
> My husband is a definite extrovert (not sure which), and I know he is a sensor.. and he could care less lol. I really don't think it is function related. I mean, it seems very dependent open the person, really. I grew up doing this with my group of like 6 best friends. We ALL did it, yet I know our function stacks are very different. And there are a few introverts...? hmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> *crumples up theory, tosses it over shoulder, moves on*
> 
> And YAY for _The Originals_... though for me, it's ALL about Elijah. I bloody love him.
> 
> 
> 
> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm curious as to who I remind people of. @alittlebear, since you asked me, may I return the question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ This.
> @alittlebear reminds me of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I realize they're not exactly the same type, but ... Fe-dom is Mary, and Mary is Fe-dom, and @alittlebear is Fe-dom, and Mary is @alittlebear.
> 
> And... now @SugarPlum is forever going to remind me of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... because I can SEE IT.
Click to expand...

I'll take it. 

What is funny is, i see Elijah as my sister/ISFJ! I WUV HIM TOO. I love how he is her savior.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> On topic: I don't know what you guys are on about.


... does anyone ever know what we're on about?



SugarPlum said:


> I'll take it.
> 
> What is funny is, i see Elijah as my sister/ISFJ! I WUV HIM TOO. I love how he is her savior.


Ah, Elijah. So noble and yet ... so naive at times. He needs to watch out for silver daggers more.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> shinynotshiny said:
> 
> 
> 
> On topic: I don't know what you guys are on about.
> 
> 
> 
> ... does anyone ever know what we're on about?
> 
> 
> 
> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take it.
> 
> What is funny is, i see Elijah as my sister/ISFJ! I WUV HIM TOO. I love how he is her savior.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah, Elijah. So noble and yet ... so naive at times. He needs to watch out for silver daggers more.
Click to expand...

No lie there! Omg. I do have a soft spot for Klaus actually. I think this is why I relate to Rebekah. She can't fully let go of Klaus, yet despises him. He has hurt her so badly. That is my relationship with my Dad. The parallels are crazy. The whole time I watch her, all I see is me. Even more than Allie/Jasmine  lol. Then too of course, but not consistently. Allie would be second closest.

Anyway, back to the characters. I do love Klaus. His vulnerability. Hes, broken. I guess I find beauty in brokenness. Its real. Marcel is quite the looker too.

Now VD, I don't like Elena. Katherine, is a diff story lol. I thought i liked Bonnie, but... nah. I always liked Caroline though. I like Jeremy too.


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> No lie there! Omg. I do have a soft spot for Klaus actually. I think this is why I relate to Rebekah. She can't fully let go of Klaus, yet despises him. He has hurt her so badly. That is my relationship with my Dad. The parallels are crazy. The whole time I watch her, all I see is me. Even more than Allie/Jasmine  lol. Then too of course, but not consistently. Allie would be second closest.
> 
> Anyway, back to the characters. I do love Klaus. His vulnerability. Hes, broken. I guess I find beauty in brokenness. Its real. Marcel is quite the looker too.
> 
> Now VD, I don't like Elena. Katherine, is a diff story lol. I thought i liked Bonnie, but... nah. I always liked Caroline though. I like Jeremy too.


I really ... hate Klaus. I like Marcel, though. Hate Elena, love Katherine. Don't mind Bonnie, prefer Caroline.


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> Children should be seen and not heard.
> 
> @Oswin: I don't really relate that well to MBTI Si, because a lot of it places emphasis on tradition, with the implication that tradition is through action, and I don't necessarily go in for that. It's more like... engrained social understanding that I struggle to shift around when it is directly confronted; I naturally am disposed to more archetypical and traditional manners of THINKING, as opposed to traditional behaviors. People hear 'tradition' and think -- oh, you do the same thing every year for Christmas, but for me it's more like... I ascribe to traditional methods of thinking and perception, such as the idea of gender roles, and if I encounter something that invalidates or conflicts with that thinking, it strikes me as ... WRONG, until I can wrap my mind around it.
> 
> Like, the persistent thought that guys like to watch guy movies, not costume dramas. Never mind that I know plenty of men who watch costume dramas, including my own father, GUYS LIKE GUY MOVIES. That's the kind of irrational BS I have to deal with in myself on a regular basis. It's hilarious but also kind of sad. GIRLS... GIRLS LIKE CHICK FLICKS, GUYS LIKE BLOW UP MOVIES.
> 
> Never mind that I like both.
> 
> ETA: That's also why I have no problem with the older man/younger woman pairing. They did it for centuries. It worked, because the man was old enough to have acquired a profession or wealth and the woman young enough to have children. So it's never remotely weirded me out.
> 
> Re: sex on "The Tudors." There is too much of it. I don't have to see it anymore, though, since I put the entire four seasons through editing software and took out all the smut. Did the same for GOT and yes, there is plot left.


See..this is why I'm unsure about Si. I value tradition. Generally and specifically. I like to celebrate Christmas the same way each year, or at least have certain 'rituals' because I like for Christmas to be special, and the day will not be _marked_, set aside, if it's different every year. And in a broader sense...I feel that when a people loses its traditions it loses part of its soul, if I were to hear about a cannibal tribe in South America somewhere that had converted to Christianity and abandoned their own belief system, stopped sacrificing human lives...I would feel a little sad, because they lost something only they had, because that old world would be falling away. And I mean...our letter A was originally the pictograph for 'cow', that connects us with ancient (Egyptians? Phoenicians?) in a way we aren't even aware of. But it's there, that red thread tied to the letter A, tying the first person to depict a cow to Charlemagne to Hester Prynne to me, which is really, really cool and somehow meaningful I think. I really like tradition. I really like the past. I don't want things to be lost and buried in the name of progress, even though I know it has to happen, that's what life is...I want to preserve dying languages, even though they are dying, I think they give us a hold on something that is particular to a people and relevant to humanity, another window to understanding...everything.

I'm not sure if I have the personal mythologies as much, though. I mean...I don't think I'm disturbed when things don't line up according to my scheme-of-things, but I also feel weird saying this because I think a lot of people view me as really traditional and married to old-fashioned values and things. But...I mean...take gender roles. I really don't agree with ideas that...gender is just a label, or that it's irrelevant. I'm a girl, so far as I can perceive it my _soul_ is female, feminine, not neutral or blob-like, I'm really a girl, and men are really men, I find it important and my whole concept of the universe is based around these two dichotomies, male and female, yin and yang, etc. And that's not going to change, at least I don't think it is. Maybe on some other planet they have three genders but...that'll be a different planet, a different concept, a different thing. I don't have any strict view that women should work at home and men out of doors, I think there's a poetry to that system but we have a new one now, I still think men should protect women and than women should support their husbands (to a point) and I think men should strive to embody masculine virtue and women feminine virtue but I don't relate to the thing about movies, or things like that. That's the part of MBTI Si I don't relate to, but it's hard to explain how I don't relate to it. That and the caution. I'm not cautious in that way. I don't want to suddenly go do new things by myself, because I don't like _cold_ things, which is just...anything that's too Ti. I mean, I don't think I'm a P because I don't just dive into new things, but it's not out of fear or apprehension, it's out of . . . wanting time to catch my breath.

tl;dr: I relate to good portions of MBTI Si (tradition) but not necessarily all. I'm pretty sure I'm not ESE in Socionics since Socionics Si is not something I like or relate to at all, and EIE fits much better, but I'm unclear where that leaves my MBTI type.

edit: I'm not really bothered by older man/younger woman pairings or cousin marriage, that sort of thing, because I am used to it from books and it seems fine if it's not too much (cousins marrying every generation, 50 year age gap) or abusive. I mean, we don't do it anymore which is fine too, I don't really care either way. But I'm not grossed out by it or anything.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm officially back! But forgive me for taking a while to catch up on things that people wanted me to respond to. 
@angelcat that's a lovely compliment! Thank you! Mary is a character role model for me, so it means a lot  
@Barakiel now that Angelcat says Harry... I can see that, oddly enough. Though I'd never have thought it before. All I can see you as is anime though (no wonder), mixed with like Olaf. I feel like I've come across a character like you, I just can't remember it now.


----------



## orbit

I'm starting to feel bad for all the threads that don't have any posts and so I post on them but I'm not a good typist so >< but at the same time, I want to test my knowledge except people aren't guinea pigs. I just assume that through correction, people will eventually find their true type



fair phantom said:


> for some reason the first thing that comes to mind is Violet Baudelaire from _A Series of Unfortunate Events_


I forgot to respond to this. Any particular reason why?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Ni Fe?


Hmm. 

Oh, and speaking of Ni/Fe - that book that @laurie17 and @shinynotshiny recommended to me, _The Parable of the Sower_? The narrator defines Ni/Fe. If you want to see Ni, read that book. It reminds me of how I feel and understand love... except our subjects of understanding are very different and we have opposite ideas about the divine. 

But yes, there's Ni in the narrator and of course her disability, hyperempathy, seems like a mystification of Fe. 

I really love how the character has a disability... but she also shines in another way. A way that is completely unconnected to her disability. It's quite wonderful, really.


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> I'm starting to feel bad for all the threads that don't have any posts and so I post on them but I'm not a good typist so >< but at the same time, I want to test my knowledge except people aren't guinea pigs. I just assume that through correction, people will eventually find their true type
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to respond to this. Any paritcular reason why?


Me too, I just don't trust my typing ability


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> @Barakiel now that Angelcat says Harry... I can see that, oddly enough. Though I'd never have thought it before. All I can see you as is anime though (no wonder), mixed with like Olaf. I feel like I've come across a character like you, I just can't remember it now.


Harry actually seems too emotional for me. :wink: I'm curious, @Curiphant, @fair phantom, you're my anime buddies, what do you think? :laughing:


----------



## orbit

Oswin said:


> Me too, I just don't trust my typing ability


I don't either but hahaha I still type. Can't learn without trying for me. 
@alittlebear at the very least Francie has very strong Fe I think

Watch me be wrong. 
But she's introverted yet not...


----------



## fair phantom

@shinynotshiny @laurie17 @Blue Flare @everyone else who hangs around here and understands socionics or, really just everyone:

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-socionics-type/589146-seeking-insight-video-questionnaire-21q-80q-written-questionnaire.html

It only took me like a week! :cat:

ETA: also tagging @Night Huntress because I see you!


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @shinynotshiny @laurie17 @Blue Flare @everyone else who hangs around here and understands socionics or, really just everyone:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-socionics-type/589146-seeking-insight-video-questionnaire-21q-80q-written-questionnaire.html
> 
> It only took me like a week! :cat:


What's with everyone doing so many questionaires, and exponentially long ones too! :wink:


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> I'm starting to feel bad for all the threads that don't have any posts and so I post on them but I'm not a good typist so >< but at the same time, I want to test my knowledge except people aren't guinea pigs. I just assume that through correction, people will eventually find their true type
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to respond to this. Any particular reason why?


I wish I had something concrete but it was just sort of the image that came to my head. Maybe because you are pretty logical and scientific yet not cold, pretty caring in fact, and you seem like the sort of person who wouldn't get beaten down by bad situations, that you would find ways out.

BTW I am working on a response to your enneagram questionnaire. :typingneko:

@Barakiel it seemed like doing the long one had the most chance of coming up with an accurate typing. :bee:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel it seemed like doing the long one had the most chance of coming up with an accurate typing. :bee:


Yeah, but I can barely keep the same train of thought for 20 questions! Also, your ears are really big. Still attractive though, so that's a plus. :wink:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, but I can barely keep the same train of thought for 20 questions! Also, your ears are really big. Still attractive though, so that's a plus. :wink:


The better to hear you with, my dear. (why is there no wolf emoji?)


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> The better to hear you with, my dear. (why is there no wolf emoji?)












Tumblr shall provide.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Tumblr shall provide.


I laughed when I saw how they were advertising Into the Woods as "starring Johnny Depp". The wolf is such a minor character, lol, and the movie made his part even shorter.


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I laughed when I saw how they were advertising Into the Woods as "starring Johnny Depp". The wolf is such a minor character, lol, and the movie made his part even shorter.


Probably for the best, because it is way creepier when Red Riding Hood is actually played by a child.

(I haven't actually seen the movie yet).


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I laughed when I saw how they were advertising Into the Woods as "starring Johnny Depp". The wolf is such a minor character, lol, and the movie made his part even shorter.


I so wish the movie had more of him. He's a terrible singer, but hey, all the males in that movie sing atrociously. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I just cannot stand the Red Riding Hood parts in the play. So sexual. And just... weird. I love the play for Cinderella, though. And the Baker's Wife.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I wish I had something concrete but it was just sort of the image that came to my head. Maybe because you are pretty logical and scientific yet not cold, pretty caring in fact, and you seem like the sort of person who wouldn't get beaten down by bad situations, that you would find ways out.
> 
> BTW I am working on a response to your enneagram questionnaire. :typingneko:
> 
> @Barakiel it seemed like doing the long one had the most chance of coming up with an accurate typing. :bee:


Thank you


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Now that I can see @angelcat's new avatar...

_Wow._










*she's


----------



## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> I just cannot stand the Red Riding Hood parts in the play. So sexual. And just... weird. I love the play for Cinderella, though. And the Baker's Wife.


I love both of them too. And I love "Agony" because the princes are completely ridiculous. Really though, I love _Into the Woods_ most for:


















Bernadette Peters is flawless.

(Why yes I do have the filmed stage production on DVD).


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I laughed when I saw how they were advertising Into the Woods as "starring Johnny Depp". The wolf is such a minor character, lol, and the movie made his part even shorter.


Advertised Extra - TV Tropes


----------



## Persephone Soul

Greyhart said:


> alittlebear said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now... I don't know. I actually disagree when people say that the sex is only in there for... sex. As someone who read all the parts but the sex scenes... I missed a lot. You learn so much about power and personality in those scenes. A _lot_ about power. *Daenerys' and Tyrion's intimate scenes tell so much about where they stand in the world.* You could do it in more subtle ways - I think it is true art when one shows those things with subtlety rather than showing you _everything_ - but I mean that's a part of life? Life isn't Disney Channel. People do things, and those things influence the environment whether everyone wants them to or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for a second there I read it as "Dany and Tyrion had sex with each other".
> 
> 
> 
> alittlebear said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bets on @Oswin's favorite character, anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She likes Eleven. So Tyrion.
Click to expand...

Omg me too! I was like, WTH?!


----------



## Greyhart

Avalnoah said:


> You should never leave your kitchen unattended when cooking something... that's like the number one cause of house fires


Nah, it'll be fine.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Id Types: 3, 7, 8 (Desirous/Energetic/Aggressive)
> Ego Types: 4, 5, 9 (Withdrawn/Identity Focused)
> Superego Types: 1, 2, 6 (Moralistic/Rule Oriented/Structured)
> 
> 
> 
> I am made entirely out of Id. :|
Click to expand...

And I superego! 









(If we're ignoring the dash of 7 which obviously we are doing)


----------



## Greyhart

I tried to find a deeper meaning in Into The Woods but it's basically sex. OK, I can rephrase it as "dangerous desires".


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> Guys, I just literally burned the water. I was boiling it to cook me some dumplings and forgot about it... about 40 minutes ago.


Oh I did that once. Walked off to do something "just for a second" and next thing I know I'm raging at the next door neighbour for cooking something that smelled funky AND had managed to set off the fire alarm and wasn't doing anything about it.

Except that "something funky" was the smoke setting off OUR fire alarm.

No fire, thank goodness.

Have I learned my lesson? Well, I downgraded to a one-room shoebox apartment so the kitchen is still only a few steps away if I do get distracted. That counts, right?


----------



## Rebel Sheep

You guys all fail Kitchen Safety 101

SHAME SHAME DING DING


----------



## Dangerose

Oh, once a few years ago I was going to make it sound like I was 12 or something but I wasn't I had a housesitting job and the first thing I did was try to make tea but I hadn't seen an electric tea kettle before so I tried to put it on the stove and that started a fire which I put out but the smoke detector brought some really hot firefighters to to house as well as the dean of my university which was surprising yet embarrassing.

And then once again I left the teapot on in my dorm and I went to class without turning it off because I forgot and all the rubber bits on the teapot melted and...that was not good.

But I have since figured out how to make tea safely.


----------



## Dangerose

And I recently bought a new toaster and I promptly lit that on fire through not knowing how to work it.
(It still works well though)


----------



## To_august

Blue Flare said:


> If I recall well, @_To_august_ also has trouble dealing with that Si definition, preferring Jung's definition of Si. Dunno, but probably that Si description works better for low order Si, like in NPs.


Yep. That's right.
But I'm Te subtype, so it can be the reason as well.

_*In order to avoid misunderstanding - the next part isn't intended directly to Blue Flare*
_
I just have a problem how people interpret Si. Once it goes in behavioural realm, it becomes unreliable. Take for example even "comfort" buzzword. 

What is "comfort" exactly? Most people would imagine person wrapped up in a blanket, drinking hot tea or someone chilling out in hammock under the warm summer rays. But is that really all that comfort is about? I don't think so. Comfort first of all is a psychological condition.

Does comfort mean taking care of one's mental health? 
Does comfort mean living in a room with little to no furniture?
Does comfort mean changing avatar/wallpaper one's you feel it doesn't fit your state anymore?
Does comfort mean lying on the beach, enjoying sunny weather?
Does comfort mean not having loud noises around?
Is comfort in organisation of one's environment?
Is comfort in following routines?
Is comfort is seeking stability?
Is comfort in being a recluse and avoidance of people?
Is comfort in enjoying rainy days and listening how rain patters against the window?
Is comfort in doing meditation?
Is comfort in grooving to your favourite music?

It's all of the above-mentioned with hundreds of other possibilities. Maybe all of it will fit you, may be none of it. These are just possible manifestations. The same goes for all the other buzzwords, which can have multivariant meanings and mixtures.

I encourage everybody not to take things literally, and try to disconnect from buzzwords, behaviours and behavioural descriptions. Dig to the core, learn the skeleton, unshell the nut to find the kernel = learn what function _is about, how _it works,_ not _surface manifestations and behaviours it produces.
_
You are_ a _concrete _and _unique _personality. Description is only a guideline for you to see and understand the patterns, so it's your job to decipher them and find out what was really meant and why it was written there itfp and how it relates to you. By disconnection from behaviours and connection to oneself and introspection, one may build their own understanding of manifestations of the function in question.

/Ramble end]


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> I love Eleven <3
> I just hate Amy so much I can barely stand to watch her episodes


Amy is a goddess. Her seasons with the Doctor are my favorite because their dynamic is so incredible.



SugarPlum said:


> TUDORS UPDATE brought to you by, Madam Plum...
> 
> I officially hate Anne (sorry angelcat). I just can't, anymore. Lol
> 
> I absolutely love Thomas.
> I like Charles too (mainly for his sexiness).
> I also adore 'Katharine's' lady, Elizabeth.
> 
> That scene with 'Katharine' and Charles... when he told her of the marriage. What she said to him... about preferring a life of misery over a life of happiness. *speachless*
> 
> The scene with Mary-which is also Aurora from OUAT, but I much prefer as Mary-looking down at Henry from the balcony. Her having to be there in service to her half sister ... or should I say, her "Princess", is just ... ughhhh. And then the bow he gave her...the looks they exchanged....that whole scene left my heart sad.
> 
> That is all...


Anne Boleyn? Oh, no worries. I never liked this Anne. They made her into such a hypocrite. Katharine, all the way. And once she's gone, my love transfers onto Mary. Hahaha.

Their Thomas More is tremendous. But I'm biased -- I've always liked Jeremy Northam.


----------



## Immolate

To_august said:


> Yep. That's right.
> But I'm Te subtype, so it can be the reason as well.
> 
> _*In order to avoid misunderstanding - the next part isn't intended directly to Blue Flare*
> _
> I just have a problem how people interpret Si. Once it goes in behavioural realm, it becomes unreliable. Take for example even "comfort" buzzword.
> 
> What is "comfort" exactly? Most people would imagine person wrapped up in a blanket, drinking hot tea or someone chilling out in hammock under the warm summer rays. But is that really all that comfort is about? I don't think so. Comfort first of all is a psychological condition.
> 
> Does comfort mean taking care of one's mental health?
> Does comfort mean living in a room with little to no furniture?
> Does comfort mean changing avatar/wallpaper one's you feel it doesn't fit your state anymore?
> Does comfort mean lying on the beach, enjoying sunny weather?
> Does comfort mean not having loud noises around?
> Is comfort in organisation of one's environment?
> Is comfort in following routines?
> Is comfort is seeking stability?
> Is comfort in being a recluse and avoidance of people?
> Is comfort in enjoying rainy days and listening how rain patters against the window?
> Is comfort in doing meditation?
> Is comfort in grooving to your favourite music?
> 
> It's all of the above-mentioned with hundreds of other possibilities. Maybe all of it will fit you, may be none of it. These are just possible manifestations. The same goes for all the other buzzwords, which can have multivariant meanings and mixtures.
> 
> I encourage everybody not to take things literally, and try to disconnect from buzzwords, behaviours and behavioural descriptions. Dig to the core, learn the skeleton, unshell the nut to find the kernel = learn what function _is about, how _it works,_ not _surface manifestations and behaviours it produces.
> _
> You are_ a _concrete _and _unique _personality. Description is only a guideline for you to see and understand the patterns, so it's your job to decipher them and find out what was really meant and why it was written there itfp and how it relates to you. By disconnection from behaviours and connection to oneself and introspection, one may build their own understanding of manifestations of the function in question.
> 
> /Ramble end]


The problem I have with being defined by my need for emotional health and stability is that, in the event I stop focusing on said health, I land myself in the hospital. Literally. I didn't take serious responsibility for myself until last year, when I was hospitalized for a week. It's a necessity in my life rather than something I actively care for. I wish I didn't have to be so vigilant when it came to medication and social setting, but after years of battling with all this madness, I've grown aware of needs and triggers. I especially have to take more responsibility for myself in adulthood, because my life affects people around me and I'm not so heartless as to disregard that. My life does seem to revolve around catering to my mental health at times, and I wish it wasn't so. 

Sorry, just a rant that bubbled forth. I understand your post overall and agree the socionics description of Si, as well as common beliefs about Si, can be very alienating for Si users.


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it, especially because everyone is so against taking the questionnaire seriously
> 
> Your analysis does seem to fit what I always felt about myself. I'm curious if you think it was extremely different from the original 21Q? (If you read it.)



Yeah, I don't get it, but I'll just leave them to it...

Hm, I don't think it was that different, really. Just more in-depth. I thought Fi-Te about the other one too, but the number of people arguing made me a bit nervous to post (and that's a rare thing – usually I just ignore them).



ElliCat said:


> I BELIEVE IN YOU!!
> 
> 
> Oh, that's a pity. So I'll hope for a miracle then?
> 
> 
> Yeah definite articles are like "the", and indefinite are like "a, some". So I guess it's vague in the sense that you don't know how many of the item they're referring to?
> 
> It looks like you're referring to adverbials of probability. At least that's the only relevant thing that came up when I Googled those kinds of words. Like you, I didn't actually learn any grammatical terms in English class... another reason for studying as many foreign languages as possible, it's how I learn my grammar. Hence me giving French and Spanish examples of indefinite articles before thinking to give them in English.
> 
> 
> Can't argue with that.
> 
> 
> I have a similar mentality, in that I don't see anything I've learned in the past as a waste, especially if I was really interested in it. Like my first degree is useless on paper but I see it more as learning life skills, so still worth the debt. And all the extra-curricular activities I took when I was younger gave me some great skills, different avenues of self-expression, and a boost in self-esteem. No way they could ever be a waste even if I never make a career out of any of them. Everything has its place in my brain.
> 
> I do think Fi gets a bit "njeh, I don't FEEEEEEEL like it" when they dislike a teacher or class atmosphere. Once someone starts annoying me I become more and more aggravated by it if I can't get away. That distracts me from the course content and makes it difficult to motivate myself to keep going with it. So if I'm stuck with them for extended periods of time, it can come across as an almost violent hatred for them, only for it to quickly subside to a "meh, it doesn't bother me, I wish them the best in their life far away from me" when I no longer have to deal with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so what's the difference between college and university there? I've been to a university and now I'm at a polytechnic. I'm not impressed with the level of teaching here so far - most teachers range from terrible to just okay, with maybe one or two who I would actually say are very good. And of course it's only the very good ones who are begging us for negative feedback because they want to know how to improve. Uni was a bit hit-or-miss teaching-quality-wise - some very good ones and some very ordinary ones too.
> 
> Where I come from you pretty much need a car. I was weird for not getting my learner's permit until I was 19 or 20. Most of my classmates took time off school as soon as they hit the minimum age limit to go take the tests. I drove a lot when I was living with my parents but I don't do it very much now, because my city's public transport is pretty good, especially from my neighbourhood. I'd probably drive more often if I wa travelling long distances, though. Trains are more convenient for me but also bloody expensive.
> 
> 
> I try to avoid calling if possible. I mostly text and (try to) look stuff up online. I'd probably actually use more apps and the internet if I had a smart phone. The camera on my phone isn't very good so I keep forgetting I can take photos, heh.
> 
> 
> Oh I don't mean to scare you! I honestly think it depends on the workplace. My current co-workers don't seem to be into the cattiness or backstabbing and all just want things to work smoothly. I've been in some places where you couldn't trust people, or they were nice to your face but turned on you as soon as you said something they didn't like. I guess for me it's been half-and-half. That's mostly in retail, though. Publishing might be a bit different.
> 
> 
> Awww. I'd believe it!
> 
> I'm still in my childhood/teenage mentality where I'm used to people not liking me, so I'm always surprised when they do, even though that's been the way it's worked for the last 5 - 10 years. Weird how that short period in your life stays with you so persistently.
> 
> 
> Well I'm spending quite a bit of time in the grip so hopefully this will be worth it in the end!
> 
> 
> Heh, maybe not quite that cute, but almost that big?
> 
> My asthma sounds like yours. Constantly trying to kill me as a kid, but I grew out of it as an adult and now it just pops up after I get sick to remind me that it still exists. Technically I think I'm supposed to be taking a preventative but I don't even do that unless I feel I'm at risk of it flaring up.
> 
> Although I got a tight chest at work the other day and freaked out and took 4 puffs of Ventolin. Heart started racing after a couple of minutes and I spent the whole afternoon shaking. Used to take a lot more than that to affect me. Kid ElliCat was officially more hardcore than Adult ElliCat.
> 
> 
> YES that is exactly what it is! I demand perfection from myself but DUH nobody's perfect why would I ever expect it of anyone else?
> 
> 
> Maaaybe? I dunno.
> 
> 
> I don't have strong feelings on it either, but I have strong feelings on people having strong feelings on it, I guess? Like it honestly doesn't bother me how people identify, because they are what they are, but I really don't like it when people start imposing their own opinions on how others should identify. I don't know if I just said exactly what you said. I think I might have.
> 
> 
> I think that's pretty natural... dare I say especially for Fi-dom? Or INFP? The whole wanting to understand everyone's mental process but also having trouble empathising with really foreign mindsets?
> 
> Hmmm, I don't know how much I've talked about this before (I hate repeating myself but I guess it can't be avoided here). I've noticed a tendency to think out loud, especially when I'm trying to plan things out or figure out the most efficient way to go about something. It also manifests as an insecurity in my own practicality and... I don't know what the right word is here, I don't know if I want to say "intelligence" or "logic", but something along those lines? Like I want to be good at it and I would like to think that I'm good at it, but I feel like I'm probably weak in that area? Oh and when I try to be succinct and no-nonsense, it just comes across as blunt and insensitive. So I kind of blame it for those moments in which I'm unintentionally offensive. I never mean to hurt someone's feelings, but it seems like I either have to choose between waffling uncertainty (Ne?) or brutal honesty, so sometimes it just happens.
> 
> And then of course when I'm stressed, hypercritical attitude and impatience with other people's incompetence and inefficiency.
> 
> Poetry.... used to recite a lot of it when I was younger, in drama classes and exams. Not a huge fan of most of it, but a few poems stuck to me and won't let go.


Boo, there was no rematch so I'm still shamed.

Miracles can happen!

Ah, that sounds better. Thanks! :ghost3: I'm very confused as to why no one seems to be taught grammatical terms, or how to use grammar properly (I taught myself how to use a semicolon). It's really necessary in all language learning. Maybe that's one reason few people in the UK learn a second language?

I never understood the whole 'useless degree' thing. Everything has a use, so long as you're willing to look for it. And few degrees are 'useful' (in terms of getting a job) on their own – you usually need work experience as well. Or even just work experience...

Haha, that sounds familiar. I had a teacher who I thought was a decent person, but a really, really bad lecturer and I got so fed up with his classes. It was horrible, because the subject itself was really interesting, but he just had one way of looking at it and wouldn't accept any other views. It wasn't what I thought university would be.

College (or sixth form if you stay at school) is sort of like the end of American highschool, from 16-18, and you take between 3 and 5 A-Level subjects which then decides which university you can apply for. The norm is to take 4 AS-Levels, then drop one in the second year and focus on 3, but people going to the higher-ranking universities can take 5 all the way through. (I took English Literature, Film Studies, Psychology and History in my first year, then dropped History because of the teacher. Because I got decent grades, I could apply to most of the universities, but not Oxford or Cambridge etc... Well, technically I could but I didn't want to because they're only highly ranked because they're old and I'm against that.)
Basically, your GCSEs from secondary school (age 11-16) get you into college, then your A-Levels from college get you into university, then neither really count once you've graduated and, if you take a Masters or PhD your undergraduate degree no longer really counts.

Ah, there's quite a lot of public transport around here (although it's overpriced and runs very badly) but mostly I didn't learn to drive because no one in my family has a car. My sister's now learning, but I kind of don't want to at the moment. Maybe eventually. (Most of my friends can drive.)

I don't like calling people either. My friend has a really cool app that translates what you say into another language (he was using it to speak to me in Japanese) and there's another you can use to scan kanji for their reading/meaning, so they have some good uses.

It's a shame there are still those kinds of attitudes around. I would have hoped everyone could just be chilled and get on with their work. Thankfully, the only time that kind of thing happened to me was in a bakery I was working in. The work experience I did in a publishing house was very laid back, so hopefully it would be more like that?

Haha, it must be because it's during development. I swear so many people are negatively affected by their teenage years. We should just skip them, hormones and all.

It did seem to do me some good to be stuck in the grip for a while, although it wasn't great while it lasted. Still, I'm glad I developed in this way (mostly – some of my adolescence was really not fun), because it's made me more 'aware' of things. I was a very inward-looking child, but I've been forced to look outward.

Darn, if they're not cute there's no point.

Mine wasn't as bad as yours, I don't think. I just had the blue inhalers (the non-preventative ones you only take when you have an attack). I did notice, actually, when I last took one that I got a very strong reaction that made me shake. Maybe it's a depleted tolerance? Very strange...

Yes! I am critical of others every so often, but much more critical of myself – I don't really care too much about what other people are doing so long as they're not hurting themselves or others.

I think you said something similar but much more eloquently, so everyone can refer to your phrasing! I find people imposing opinions on others to be one of the worst things.

Ohh, good point. It could be an Fi thing. I wonder...

Thank you for posting about the inferior! :ghost3: That's very similar to me, actually. Especially the choice between expressing either through Ne or Te (oh, extraverted functions!). I was a lot more into expressing through Ne when younger (very roundabout) but then developed Te and now I come across as more blunt (and I actually speak my mind now, so sometimes I also come across as harsh when I don't mean to). The hypercritical thing is a problem for me. I've been told I'm dismissive of people...

I love maybe... two poets' work and a few ballads. I mostly read them at A-Level, but I still like them now (the likingness is nowhere near as strong as for certain novels though).



shinynotshiny said:


> @laurie17
> 
> Someone once told me I had to say "I love you" everyday and I just


Haha! I would be so mad if someone said I had to do that, then give a very long explanation as to why I wouldn't and engage them in debate until they were so fed up they wouldn't bring it up again :ghost3:



alittlebear said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Oh, and speaking of Ni/Fe - that book that @laurie17 and @shinynotshiny recommended to me, The Parable of the Sower? The narrator defines Ni/Fe. If you want to see Ni, read that book. It reminds me of how I feel and understand love... except our subjects of understanding are very different and we have opposite ideas about the divine.
> 
> But yes, there's Ni in the narrator and of course her disability, hyperempathy, seems like a mystification of Fe.
> 
> I really love how the character has a disability... but she also shines in another way. A way that is completely unconnected to her disability. It's quite wonderful, really.


(I didn't actually recommend that one! Glad it was good though, I'll have to pick it up.)



fair phantom said:


> @shinynotshiny @laurie17 @Blue Flare @everyone else who hangs around here and understands socionics or, really just everyone:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...stionnaire-21q-80q-written-questionnaire.html
> 
> It only took me like a week!
> 
> ETA: also tagging @Night Huntress because I see you!


I'll try my best to get to that asap! :ghost3:

Late on the character thing, but my ESTP friend once asked if I related to Gil from Ava's Demon (Ava's Demon) and I was thinking 'You mean besides being a cultist, right? Right?' Kind of depressing as the only character I've ever been compared to...

My mum is ESFP, so very much not ESFJ. Although she has 2w1 in her tritype somewhere.
@alittlebear I also dislike reality TV. My mum loves Made in Chelsea and it makes me feel almost physically sick to watch (I'm sure she feels the same about me watching Time Team though).
@Greyhart I've never done that! Be careful! My downstairs neighbour burnt a pan that way... I did once break a bowl by letting it overheat in the microwave then putting it in cold water though.


----------



## orbit

I should try to read GoT again. Or at least watch the show

Such a big time commitment
@laurie17, you don't seem like Gil to me? ...I can't see you as any of the characters in there.


----------



## 68097

To_august said:


> I just have a problem how people interpret Si. Once it goes in behavioural realm, it becomes unreliable. Take for example even "comfort" buzzword.
> 
> What is "comfort" exactly? Most people would imagine person wrapped up in a blanket, drinking hot tea or someone chilling out in hammock under the warm summer rays. But is that really all that comfort is about? I don't think so. Comfort first of all is a psychological condition.
> 
> Does comfort mean taking care of one's mental health?
> Does comfort mean living in a room with little to no furniture?
> Does comfort mean changing avatar/wallpaper one's you feel it doesn't fit your state anymore?
> Does comfort mean lying on the beach, enjoying sunny weather?
> Does comfort mean not having loud noises around?
> Is comfort in organization of one's environment?
> Is comfort in following routines?
> Is comfort is seeking stability?
> Is comfort in being a recluse and avoidance of people?
> Is comfort in enjoying rainy days and listening how rain patters against the window?
> Is comfort in doing meditation?
> Is comfort in grooving to your favourite music?
> 
> It's all of the above-mentioned with hundreds of other possibilities. Maybe all of it will fit you, may be none of it. These are just possible manifestations.


THIS.

Most of that fits me, by the way. 

One of my friends lives in a very "cluttered" environment -- I do not mean a "mess," but a volume of STUFF. She has every inch of wall space covered with something, and no room to use her desk because her nicknacks and trinkets are so many. Her bookshelves are packed full. Being in her house makes me feel claustrophobic, because there are no open spaces. She was puzzled when she came to my first apartment, and I had ALL THIS BLANK WALL SPACE. But that made me feel more at ease. Too much STUFF makes me anxious. I need open counter space. Window wells with only one thing, or nothing, in them. When I go into my living room, I want soft pillows that are pretty, but not so many that I can't sit on the couch. I just got up one morning and painted my kitchen wall fusha. Everyone thought I was nuts... until they saw it. That wall NEEDED that color, and now it's happy and complete. It sets off everything and gives me comfort. 

I have a habitual need to "tinker" with aesthetics until it works, and then I don't mess with it further. I go through avatar changes frequently, searching for something that captures my essence -- and nothing ever does. It fits for awhile, or I like it for awhile, and then the mental wanderlust begins. _Is there something better, prettier, more ME out there_? I fussed and fussed over my living room and what color the walls ought to be until I found this enormous print at Marshall's of a close-up of a tiger's face. That sucker is 4 feet long, it covers my entire dining room wall, and he just ... stares out across the room. It's me, and what I love, and who I am, and I have not thought of the living room since. Same with my bedroom. Two giant posters stare across at my bed -- Rhett and Scarlett, but they are drawings of them, not photographs. It gives the room a vintage look and I've done the rest with lovely browns and yellows, and being in there just makes me happy.

I really hate anything that is ugly or unrefined or too crowded. I used to not know why, but now I realize it's because it throws my sensory awareness off or makes me feel strange. Have you ever been in a show home? There is something so formal and unwelcoming about it. Some rooms, I walk into them and I want to leave, because it doesn't feel real or lived in; it feels like I'm treading into a museum. 

Voices ... I love them or hate them, and whether I like you or don't can entirely depend on the tone of your voice. Some actors I am drawn to, because their voice is soothing and/or enticing to me. Some actresses I cannot stand, because the vibrations of their vocal notes are off-putting to me. Josh Groban calms me down. He's like the smell after a rain. Will Farrell sets my teeth on edge. 

I've realized that I do and do not like certain foods, because of how they feel inside my mouth. I can't stand eating tomato seeds. They're slimy and like having a mouthful of sludge. Grapes feel like they are skinning my teeth and sucking the moisture out of my mouth (I eat them anyway). Drinking Pepsi used to make me feel like it was rotting the enamel off my teeth. I'm not always a fan of deviled eggs for the same weird texture they leave on my teeth. Weird, huh?

I fill my life with music. Good food. Soft fabrics. Cats. I sometimes just want to go sit outside and read, because to do otherwise is WRONG. I need silences sometimes. 

In Si-auxes, I think these things might be subdued more depending on the person, but once I became aware of these things, I suddenly realized how much they influence my likes and dislikes. 

Not really writing this TO anyone, just ... musings on a Sunday morning. I kind of just want to shower and then go lay out on the grass, before it gets too hot. I sometimes wish the entire day was 6-something in the morning, the light is always so beautiful this time of year.


----------



## Immolate

Oh @angelcat whenever you YES an Si post I just

I mean














































-

I actually knew someone who was an extremely picky eater. She didn't like the feel of dairy in her mouth, anything creamy, so she would say no to yogurt, pudding (maybe, I mean, pudding is great), cold milk (she ate her cereal dry), anything of that nature. She was also particular about the temperature of the room when she slept and whether or not her feet were covered and how the blankets were tucked under the mattress (I thought tucking was a movie thing, not a real life thing). Her dislike even extended to touchy-feely things but moving on. It made no sense to me. The only thing I absolutely cannot stand is jello. Jello makes no sense. Sometimes I over-salt my food but I eat everything anyway because food is food and I won't let it go to waste.

Oh! I even remember her saying she hated the feel of a greasy napkin because it made her shudder in discomfort. I mean, it's so specific.

My comfort is more psychological comfort, so I thank the pharmaceutical industry despite their heartlessness eaceful:


----------



## KevinHeaven

I am so happy. Today I read something made me more confident about my type. Isfp. I usually work from to details to the big picture. And I read thats Ni trait. Also " eliminates ideas that don’t fit into the “whole.” " so true for me. 

But I seem to be stuck in an Fi -Ni loop. I should experience things more without being scared.


----------



## Adena

KevinHeaven said:


> I am so happy. Today I read something made me more confident about my type. Isfp. I usually work from to details to the big picture. And I read thats Ni trait. Also " eliminates ideas that don’t fit into the “whole.” " so true for me.
> 
> But I seem to be stuck in an Fi -Ni loop. I should experience things more without being scared.


Ergh, really? That has been my drawing tactic as a young girl and it would always turn out better than everyone else's, though I was taught otherwise and now I do from big picture to details :/ Am I an ENTJ? Pfft, no.

Go out to parties, have fun, do sports!


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## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Guys, I just literally burned the water. I was boiling it to cook me some dumplings and forgot about it... about 40 minutes ago.


You were distracted while eating cherries weren't you


----------



## KevinHeaven

Gray Romantic said:


> Ergh, really? That has been my drawing tactic as a young girl and it would always turn out better than everyone else's, though I was taught otherwise and now I do from big picture to details :/ Am I an ENTJ? Pfft, no.
> 
> Go out to parties, have fun, do sports!


Yup I should Im lazy tho haha. 

Btw I do that with drawing too. People tell me to draw the outline first. I cant. I have to start with eyes or the small details. Thats a sign of Ni. I am no expert . I thought meaning was only for Ne cuz I seek meaning realized its also for Ni. They both care about the big picture, but they have different ways. I think I also read that Ni cares about the result more than the process. Its like a black hole sucking all the ideas for the project only. (Ne will go outside the project and thats why sometimes its random but really interesting.)
For me whenever I do any art project I pick a theme then pick the colors and stuff like that (Ni, I am collecting things thats fit the whole more)

My personal theory (lol dont take it seriously but it may have some truth in it) is that Ne users have more variety in their artwork and Ni users have more unity and harmony in their work. Just my own perspective. 

This helped me:

http://funkymbtifiction.tumblr.com/post/68512751960/there-are-two-kinds-of-intuitives-which-are


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## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> Oh @angelcat whenever you YES an Si post I just
> 
> I mean
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> -
> 
> I actually knew someone who was an extremely picky eater. She didn't like the feel of dairy in her mouth, anything creamy, so she would say no to yogurt, pudding (maybe, I mean, pudding is great), cold milk (she ate her cereal dry), anything of that nature. She was also particular about the temperature of the room when she slept and whether or not her feet were covered and how the blankets were tucked under the mattress (I thought tucking was a movie thing, not a real life thing). Her dislike even extended to touchy-feely things but moving on. It made no sense to me. The only thing I absolutely cannot stand is jello. Jello makes no sense. Sometimes I over-salt my food but I eat everything anyway because food is food and I won't let it go to waste.
> 
> Oh! I even remember her saying she hated the feel of a greasy napkin because it made her shudder in discomfort. I mean, it's so specific.
> 
> My comfort is more psychological comfort, so I thank the pharmaceutical industry despite their heartlessness eaceful:


I think some Si's have it, others don't.

There is no doubt in my mind that my mother is an STJ type, but she gives no thought to that kind of thing. She'll do a puzzle half in the dark because she forgot to turn a light on. She thinks I'm weird for taking the seeds out of my tomatoes. She will work herself into exhaustion until sweat drips off her and then be like, "Oh yeah, I should sit down now." 

But her organization of her home is meticulous. Everything has a place and belongs there. With a label on it. She's a terrific interior designer -- but it didn't come naturally. She watched about a thousand hours of HGTV. She is SO logical, yet so oblivious at the same time. In that way, we're alike -- both lost in our heads and oblivious to exterior events. Total tomboy. Hates skirts. Prefers jeans. And she doesn't touch things in stores the way I do. I touch everything, to see if I like how it feels before I even think of trying it on. 

My Se-dom sister is similar to me, but ... everything is a thousandfold amplified in terms of BOLDNESS. THERE is the real decorator. She goes for impact, not how things make her 'feel.'


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I think some Si's have it, others don't.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that my mother is an STJ type, but she gives no thought to that kind of thing. She'll do a puzzle half in the dark because she forgot to turn a light on. She thinks I'm weird for taking the seeds out of my tomatoes. She will work herself into exhaustion until sweat drips off her and then be like, "Oh yeah, I should sit down now."
> 
> But her organization of her home is meticulous. Everything has a place and belongs there. With a label on it. She's a terrific interior designer -- but it didn't come naturally. She watched about a thousand hours of HGTV. She is SO logical, yet so oblivious at the same time. In that way, we're alike -- both lost in our heads and oblivious to exterior events. Total tomboy. Hates skirts. Prefers jeans. And she doesn't touch things in stores the way I do. I touch everything, to see if I like how it feels before I even think of trying it on.
> 
> My Se-dom sister is similar to me, but ... everything is a thousandfold amplified in terms of BOLDNESS. THERE is the real decorator. She goes for impact, not how things make her 'feel.'


I like the idea of a meticulously laid-out environment and everything having its proper place, and sometimes I achieve this, I usually try to, but right now I have six empty(ish) cups of coffee next to my desk. (Forgive me, I may have a coffee problem...) I also started using my "comfy chair" as a repository for laundry and "things I'll put away later." Sometimes I have that clean, airy space, and sometimes I couldn't care less. I'm more meticulous when it comes to information or work because that has actual importance. I don't like letting that slip, if at all. 

I think the most meticulous person I know is my grandfather, and that's because I strongly believe he has OCD, the actual OCD. I remember visiting him as a kid and being scolded for putting a bottle out of order or not putting the lid back on the jar full of mints. Whenever we get together as a family, we know his "I'll be there at 4" actually means "I'll be there at 7 the earliest" because it takes him forever to get everything in order. It even takes him about 15 minutes to come inside once he's arrived because he's putting everything in its proper place inside the car. We call him eléctrico because he is so hyperactive, vigilant and aware of his surroundings. 

What does that make him? 6? 1? It makes for hilarious catastrophes, though, I'm laughing just thinking about it. Last Thanksgiving killed me :tears_of_joy:


----------



## Bugs

> I like the idea of a meticulously laid-out environment and everything having its proper place, and sometimes I achieve this, I usually try to, but right now I have six empty(ish) cups of coffee next to my desk. (Forgive me, I may have a coffee problem...) I also started using my "comfy chair" as a repository for laundry and "things I'll put away later." Sometimes I have that clean, airy space, and sometimes I couldn't care less. I'm more meticulous when it comes to information or work because that has actual importance. I don't like letting that slip, if at all.


It's like you described my place.


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## Pressed Flowers

Is there any reason for ISFJs to be conspiracy theorists...?


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## Immolate

Bugs said:


> It's like you described my place.


I try to hide this messier side of me :cheers2:




alittlebear said:


> Is there any reason for ISFJs to be conspiracy theorists...?


I thought it was inferior Ne?


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## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I try to hide this messier side of me :cheers2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was inferior Ne?


Yeah, it seemed like inferior Ne? It was... interesting, though. My aunt is pretty plainly ISFJ, but she's the first person I've known outside of college with actual wholehearted beliefs in these conspiracies she's come up with herself.


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## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> Yeah, it seemed like inferior Ne? It was... interesting, though. My aunt is pretty plainly ISFJ, but she's the first person I've known outside of college with actual wholehearted beliefs in these conspiracies she's come up with herself.


I don't know anyone who believes in conspiracy theories, even less sinister ones. If anything, there are members of my family who are very suspicious of certain political movements and scientific claims, mostly because of what they experienced in their home countries.


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## fair phantom

alittlebear said:


> Is there any reason for ISFJs to be conspiracy theorists...?


unhealthy si-ti looping? i think unhealthy ti is usually associated with conspiracy theories. :/


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## Bugs

fair phantom said:


> unhealthy si-ti looping? i think unhealthy ti is usually associated with conspiracy theories. :/


I don't know if its really function related. I know CTs that are very diverse in personality.


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## Pressed Flowers

Yeah... I never knew anyone either. I didn't even know what conspiracy theories were, really... I thought they were a joke or something, since I didn't know I knew anyone who actually believed in them... but no, my aunt wholeheartedly believes in her theories. I mean it's interesting because that perspective does awaken me to the danger of certain things, but I don't believe there's a network making those things happen. It's still... enlightening, in a way, I guess.


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## 68097

The seemingly sanest people, if you get them really talking, can believe the most absurd things -- and I think it has nothing to do with type.

Some psychologist or other -- Peck? -- said that your sanity is determined by how closely your view of reality aligns with reality itself. Some people are closer to reality than others.


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## To_august

shinynotshiny said:


> The problem I have with being defined by my need for emotional health and stability is that, in the event I stop focusing on said health, I land myself in the hospital. Literally. I didn't take serious responsibility for myself until last year, when I was hospitalized for a week. It's a necessity in my life rather than something I actively care for. I wish I didn't have to be so vigilant when it came to medication and social setting, but after years of battling with all this madness, I've grown aware of needs and triggers. I especially have to take more responsibility for myself in adulthood, because my life affects people around me and I'm not so heartless as to disregard that. My life does seem to revolve around catering to my mental health at times, and I wish it wasn't so.
> 
> Sorry, just a rant that bubbled forth. I understand your post overall and agree the socionics description of Si, as well as common beliefs about Si, can be very alienating for Si users.


But, you are not defined by your type. It's not like if person is an Si dominant all they think about is their health and how to clean the room. Type is only about how you process information. It doesn't dictate what you should think about or what interests you should have.

Active focus on health in most cases is the result of having certain deseases after all. Si works in more subtle ways.

I don't care much about health, not consciously anyway and never talk about health or medical issues. But I catch myself being good at avoiding dangerous foods. When I see some meal I instantly just know whether it'll be good for me or not. And by that estimation my body reacts either in a positive way - "yay, this is tasty", or in a negative way - "meh, it wouldn't taste good". This may sound weird, but it seems like taste of food is determined on the basis of whether it would have positive or negative effect on my body. None of it is a conscious process though, and these thoughts never enter consciousness. This "knowing" happens in a millisecond, like a reflex.

In contrast, my INFJ uncle brings up health and medicine related themes all the time, gathers articles about healthy foods and medicines, likes cooking. He eats a lot of unhealthy products, knowing that he'll have problems afterwards, but he can't help because finds them tasty and craves them. Afterwards he swallows handfuls of pills. This is crappy Si.

My working place is also a mess, but I don't care, because what counts is that I should be able to find the necessary item. I think this is very Si-Te approach - to have items in convenient places for me, not in some abstract "right places" where they supposed to belong.


angelcat said:


> Voices ... I love them or hate them, and whether I like you or don't can entirely depend on the tone of your voice. Some actors I am drawn to, because their voice is soothing and/or enticing to me. Some actresses I cannot stand, because the vibrations of their vocal notes are off-putting to me. Josh Groban calms me down. He's like the smell after a rain. Will Farrell sets my teeth on edge.
> 
> I've realized that I do and do not like certain foods, because of how they feel inside my mouth. I can't stand eating tomato seeds. They're slimy and like having a mouthful of sludge. Grapes feel like they are skinning my teeth and sucking the moisture out of my mouth (I eat them anyway). Drinking Pepsi used to make me feel like it was rotting the enamel off my teeth. I'm not always a fan of deviled eggs for the same weird texture they leave on my teeth. Weird, huh?
> 
> I fill my life with music. Good food. Soft fabrics. Cats. I sometimes just want to go sit outside and read, because to do otherwise is WRONG. I need silences sometimes.


Oh, yes! Voices and sounds! I realised that I frequently pay much more attention to melodies and voices, then to the lyrics. This may be the reason why I love scores so much, while many people can't understand how I listen to "something without words". B-b-but the rhythm is speaking to me, melody is the story! And totally love Josh Groban's voice 

I get that Pepsi thing btw. It feels like Pepsi particles scratch my enamel and eat it. Lol.


----------



## Bugs

angelcat said:


> The seemingly sanest people, if you get them really talking, can believe the most absurd things -- and I think it has nothing to do with type.
> 
> Some psychologist or other -- Peck? -- said that your sanity is determined by how closely your view of reality aligns with reality itself. Some people are closer to reality than others.


In your avatar they kind of look like they're eating the flower. I could see it being used in a pro-Vegan ad.


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## Immolate

To_august said:


> But, you are not defined by your type. It's not like if person is an Si dominant all they think about is their health and how to clean the room. Type is only about how you process information. It doesn't dictate what you should think about or what interests you should have.
> 
> Active focus on health in most cases is the result of having certain deseases after all. Si works in more subtle ways.
> 
> I don't care much about health, not consciously anyway and never talk about health or medical issues. But I catch myself being good at avoiding dangerous foods. When I see some meal I instantly just know whether it'll be good for me or not. And by that estimation my body reacts either in a positive way - "yay, this is tasty", or in a negative way - "meh, it wouldn't taste good". This may sound weird, but it seems like taste of food is determined on the basis of whether it would have positive or negative effect on my body. None of it is a conscious process though, and these thoughts never enter consciousness. This "knowing" happens in a millisecond, like a reflex.
> 
> In contrast, my INFJ uncle brings up health and medicine related themes all the time, gathers articles about healthy foods and medicines, likes cooking. He eats a lot of unhealthy products, knowing that he'll have problems afterwards, but he can't help because finds them tasty and craves them. Afterwards he swallows handfuls of pills. This is crappy Si.
> 
> My working place is also a mess, but I don't care, because what counts is that I should be able to find the necessary item. I think this is very Si-Te approach - to have items in convenient places for me, not in some abstract "right places" where they supposed to belong.


That's my point, though. I don't like when people take my need for emotional stability as a sign of strong Si, or my desire to provide an emotionally stable atmosphere for potential children as having strong Alpha values. These things stem from my personal and ongoing experiences with mental health, as well as my wanting to prevent others, especially children, from developing the same hurts and weaknesses that I developed. Because I've been there, I know what it's like, and I don't want others finding themselves in that same place.


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## Pressed Flowers

I think I'm getting interested in cooking? It's a great skill to have, especially when it comes to keeping people happy. It's great to be that person who comes in with cool new food, the person who invites you over to have a good, unique home cooked meal. And it doesn't take too long to do, once you get used to it, it's satisfying, it's self-sufficient, it is inexpensive if you do it properly... Yeah, I'm liking the idea of learning to cook more and more.


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## 68097

@To_august: I'm the same way about food. I will sometimes eat something I KNOW will not agree with me and within seconds of eating it, I feel the inner "shift" it has on my system and I regret it. Any joy I might have had in tasting whatever it was is undercut by the terrible repercussions of it in my body itself. Boo.

Movie scores and instrumentals are glorious ... it's like a story without words, and it puts me in a certain kind of mood. I've found that listening to certain instrumental scores can be an asset in writing, since it naturally establishes the right emotional resonance. And I'm shocked that other people can't follow music, or sense when something is off tune! I was in a church singing group for awhile and I was SO FRUSTRATED because they wanted to try this "complicated" bit of music, kind of a Christmas mashup where you switch from one song very quickly into the lyrics of other, so it's an ongoing melody of voices. Everyone agreed it was too hard and I was sitting there going... "It's not... I can hear it in my head... I can sit right here and sing it all!" But I was overruled, and we never got to do it. I was bummed. 



Bugs said:


> In your avatar they kind of look like they're eating the flower. I could see it being used in a pro-Vegan ad.


*looks sternly at you*

ANIMALS ARE PEOPLE TOO.

Not that ... twenty minutes ago Dad said, "Are you talking to yourself?" while doing yard work, and I said, "NO. I'm talking to this little toad!" ... or anything.

I really am this:










I think I realized that the minute I saw her feeding the mice off her plate. Or maybe it was that rant she gave to the prince about hunting stags. Yeah, that was it. Or no, no, actually it was the opening line -- how she saw the world not as it is, but as it COULD BE. Or... well, all of it. Yeah, I'm Cinderella. Carry on.


----------



## KevinHeaven

alittlebear said:


> I think I'm getting interested in cooking? It's a great skill to have, especially when it comes to keeping people happy. It's great to be that person who comes in with cool new food, the person who invites you over to have a good, unique home cooked meal. And it doesn't take too long to do, once you get used to it, it's satisfying, it's self-sufficient, it is inexpensive if you do it properly... Yeah, I'm liking the idea of learning to cook more and more.


Idk whats wrong with my brain today but i read it like this "especially when it comes to killing people happily" lol

Btw I like cooking but its hit or miss. I dont follow recipes and I am too lazy to write my own when it tastes good. Maybe it will get boring to taste the same exact thing everyday I like to make every meal unique.


----------



## Immolate

alittlebear said:


> I think I'm getting interested in cooking? It's a great skill to have, especially when it comes to keeping people happy. It's great to be that person who comes in with cool new food, the person who invites you over to have a good, unique home cooked meal. And it doesn't take too long to do, once you get used to it, it's satisfying, it's self-sufficient, it is inexpensive if you do it properly... Yeah, I'm liking the idea of learning to cook more and more.


I cook to satisfy hunger and don't really care for making it tasty. I'll eat most anything as long as it isn't outright disgusting, which is why I refuse/avoid cooking for anyone :strawberry:

@angelcat I accept and support your Cinderella identity.


----------



## Bugs

angelcat said:


> [MENTION=66216]
> 
> 
> 
> *looks sternly at you*
> 
> ANIMALS ARE PEOPLE TOO.
> 
> Not that ... twenty minutes ago Dad said, "Are you talking to yourself?" while doing yard work, and I said, "NO. I'm talking to this little toad!" ... or anything.
> 
> I really am this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I realized that the minute I saw her feeding the mice off her plate. Or maybe it was that rant she gave to the prince about hunting stags. Yeah, that was it. Or no, no, actually it was the opening line -- how she saw the world not as it is, but as it COULD BE. Or... well, all of it. Yeah, I'm Cinderella. Carry on.


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> I cook to satisfy hunger and don't really care for making it tasty. I'll eat most anything as long as it isn't outright disgusting, which is why I refuse/avoid cooking for anyone :strawberry:
> 
> @angelcat I accept and support your Cinderella identity.


I STILL think you are an IXTJ type. I don't agree with the Fe/Ti idea. I just... don't. I get a low-order Fi vibe from you. If you asked me to explain it, I couldn't -- but it's there. Though, I've been wrong before. 

YAY for Cinderella.

Cooking: I used to hate it, and it's still not my favorite thing to do, but with very little effort (knowing spices, for example) you can make food taste good. You need good recipes, to start with, though. I had to scrap ALL my recipes when I realized how many food sensitives and allergies I have -- no more pizza, no more lasagna, no more bread of any kind, no dairy, avoid corn as much as possible, no potatoes, etc. I can make incredible salads, though, and everyone raves about my chicken salad (it's just veganaise, chicken, green grapes, and green onions blended together -- easy peasy; I pop it inside halved-out tomatoes and it's the perfect high tea food. 

One of my favorite salads -- greens, cashews, mandarin orange slices, raisins or dates, tomatoes, avocado if you have it. For a sweet salad, mix up your own honey mustard (veganaise, honey, and mustard, haha) ... or you can make your own ranch dressing (though leave off the mandarin orange slices, and add green onion instead). 

Oh dear. I'm acting even MORE like an ISFJ right now... I'll quit talking about food, though I have noticed I'm far less inclined to cook just for myself than for other people. UNLESS I LOVE HOW IT TASTES. Then by george, I'll make it!


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> I think I'm getting interested in cooking? It's a great skill to have, especially when it comes to keeping people happy. It's great to be that person who comes in with cool new food, the person who invites you over to have a good, unique home cooked meal. And it doesn't take too long to do, once you get used to it, it's satisfying, it's self-sufficient, it is inexpensive if you do it properly... Yeah, I'm liking the idea of learning to cook more and more.


My dad is very into cooking but my mom hates my brother for messing up the kitchen so we're not allowed to cook unless we go over to my grandparent's D8

I want to know how to cook so I don't starve when I move away


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat going back to what I think was the first conversation we had on this forum 

How is this kid not an FJ?






(Also omg. Obvs he loves Effie, don't know why they all jumped to thinking he loved Katniss 8D)

(also I cannot believe that Katniss is a top autocorrect result. This outrages me.)


----------



## 68097

Ah yes. Peeta. I hear arguments for ENFP for him and go ... uhhh? No, no, no, that boy is Fe-dom. Only Fe-doms could work the crowd as well as he does. ENFJ seems right for him. Always thinking ahead. How will what I say now impact things down the line?

I don't know what to watch. I'm sitting here on a gorgeous Sunday with no responsibilities. I SHOULD work on my novel, but I don't feel like it. Do I want to watch The Tudors? Eh, maybe. Should I marathon Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell? Or finish the fourth season of Call the Midwife? DECISIONS!!


----------



## orbit

I'm mildly questioning my I in SFP because of what is appearing to be my enneagram so far (which was rapidly formed thanks to fair phantom 8D). Threes tend to be ESFPs not ISFPs?

Hm. Whatever.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I STILL think you are an IXTJ type. I don't agree with the Fe/Ti idea. I just... don't. I get a low-order Fi vibe from you. If you asked me to explain it, I couldn't -- but it's there. Though, I've been wrong before.
> 
> YAY for Cinderella.
> 
> Cooking: I used to hate it, and it's still not my favorite thing to do, but with very little effort (knowing spices, for example) you can make food taste good. You need good recipes, to start with, though. I had to scrap ALL my recipes when I realized how many food sensitives and allergies I have -- no more pizza, no more lasagna, no more bread of any kind, no dairy, avoid corn as much as possible, no potatoes, etc. I can make incredible salads, though, and everyone raves about my chicken salad (it's just veganaise, chicken, green grapes, and green onions blended together -- easy peasy; I pop it inside halved-out tomatoes and it's the perfect high tea food.
> 
> One of my favorite salads -- greens, cashews, mandarin orange slices, raisins or dates, tomatoes, avocado if you have it. For a sweet salad, mix up your own honey mustard (veganaise, honey, and mustard, haha) ... or you can make your own ranch dressing (though leave off the mandarin orange slices, and add green onion instead).
> 
> Oh dear. I'm acting even MORE like an ISFJ right now... I'll quit talking about food, though I have noticed I'm far less inclined to cook just for myself than for other people. UNLESS I LOVE HOW IT TASTES. Then by george, I'll make it!


I don't know, Cinderella. Dare we disagree with PerC elites? :tranquillity:

Pizza is perhaps my guiltiest pleasure. I just can't resist. Last year I was having a huge emotional slump, and a friend of mine invited me over to talk and have pizza, you know, something easy and casual. I said no, it's alright, I'm not in the mood for pizza. He legit approached me and said he was worried for me. That alone cheered me up.

I also can't say no to spicy food even though it disagrees with my face (I developed sensitive skin in my late childhood, get red easily, still angry I can't tan like I used to).

I normally don't go for salads but I'll keep your recipe, I'm liking the fruit :eagerness:


----------



## KevinHeaven

Curiphant said:


> I'm mildly questioning my I in SFP because of what is appearing to be my enneagram so far (which was rapidly formed thanks to fair phantom 8D). Threes tend to be ESFPs not ISFPs?
> 
> Hm. Whatever.


Yes they tend to be Esfps. but they can also be isfps. For example my 4 and 3 score are so close.


----------



## orbit

KevinHeaven said:


> Yes they tend to be Esfps. but they can also be isfps. For example my 4 and 3 score are so close.


Only mildly questioning ^^ 

3w2 c:


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> I'm mildly questioning my I in SFP because of what is appearing to be my enneagram so far (which was rapidly formed thanks to fair phantom 8D). Threes tend to be ESFPs not ISFPs?
> 
> Hm. Whatever.


Do you feel less familiar with Te or Ni? Which one is your weak spot?



shinynotshiny said:


> I don't know, Cinderella. Dare we disagree with PerC elites? :tranquillity:


Eh. Question authority. Challenge it. Make 'em prove themselves. 



> Pizza is perhaps my guiltiest pleasure. I just can't resist. Last year I was having a huge emotional slump, and a friend of mine invited me over to talk and have pizza, you know, something easy and casual. I said no, it's alright, I'm not in the mood for pizza. He legit approached me and said he was worried for me. That alone cheered me up.


Aw, that was nice of him. I used to love pizza. All that CHEESE. Glorious, glorious cheese.



> I also can't say no to spicy food even though it disagrees with my face (I developed sensitive skin in my late childhood, get red easily, still angry I can't tan like I used to).
> 
> I normally don't go for salads but I'll keep your recipe, I'm liking the fruit :eagerness:


I love spicy food. I don't actually have super-strong taste buds, so I like spicy things since I can't taste anything bland!

*starts Call the Midwife*


----------



## orbit

@angelcat, they both could be my weak spots =\ Te because of the competency/grades thing that arkigos mentioned way back when but Ni because I use it to make willful predictions about how bad the future is going to be because my Fi says so. In the functional stack page for Te on the blog, Te as the weakest function made more sense than auxilary but Ni could have worked either. I'm still 86% sure I am an ISFP, but solidification and an ego stroking certainty would be nice.


----------



## 68097

Curiphant said:


> @angelcat, they both could be my weak spots =\ Te because of the competency/grades thing that arkigos mentioned way back when but Ni because I use it to make willful predictions about how bad the future is going to be because my Fi says so. In the functional stack page for Te on the blog, Te as the weakest function made more sense than auxilary but Ni could have worked either. I'm still 86% sure I am an ISFP, but solidification and an ego stroking certainty would be nice.


Does your focus tend to be primarily internal or focused on the external world?

All the introverts tend to be distant from the tangible world more than the extroverts, whose dominant extroverted function causes them to actively seek external stimulation most of the time. Introverts can engage with the outside world, but it's more comfortable for them to dwell in their head, overall.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> Eh. Question authority. Challenge it. Make 'em prove themselves.


That's usually my default position. It's one of the reasons hoopla's responses to my typing thread frustrated me so much. I feel a sense of... I'll just go with "disapproval" when I see someone trying to gain someone's attention or approval based on their perceived authority. I think there needs to be a balance between acknowledging someone's authority in any given area and trailing behind them with googly eyes, not that I see or saw hoopla that way, but I can't help feeling a degree of contempt in situations like that. I know that makes me sound terrible :moody:

[Edit] uh oh I hope the silence has nothing to do with me, I never know


----------



## orbit

angelcat said:


> Does your focus tend to be primarily internal or focused on the external world?
> 
> All the introverts tend to be distant from the tangible world more than the extroverts, whose dominant extroverted function causes them to actively seek external stimulation most of the time. Introverts can engage with the outside world, but it's more comfortable for them to dwell in their head, overall.


I like staying in my head. I don't need that much stimulation to feel happy.

Lol. The enneagram typing I received is "very common" for ESFPs according to the BlackCat blue color graph. (I don't care that much. Still think I'm ISFP but it would explain my tendency to be talkative)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Yes, Shiny, we've abandoned the thread because of you. (I can assure you that's not the case, at least for me. Do you remember all the trouble I put up being typed? You're nothing too terrible. I'm just absent because I've been watching too many YouTube videos.) 

Which brings me to my post,

I tried when I posted that to think "oh, Peeta's a pretty cool character!" I dislike him in THG because his whole thing is wanting to be with Katniss but he's still not entirely that, right? 

And then I got this clip 






That's pathetic. His life is more than her. His mom sounds like a donkey, sure, but... There's more that one can do with their life than just... loving one person. That's a hard mentality for me to understand or sympathize with, to be honest.

Again you can see though how the roles are switched. He's the helpless character who is too good to kill and whose world is the hero. She's the one who must live on the protect others. 

I do like how he got her those pictures though. That was... very thoughtful, and clever. That's what she needed, certainly. Very glad he did that at least.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh and @laurie17 I thought you mentioned it first! Gah. I know @shinynotshiny did, but... maybe it was @fair phantom also? Maybe I can find a way to go back and look. 

I need to reply to The Secret History thread again, but I think I'm still recovering from it. It's funny because I was connecting a certain song about love to all the stories I could think of... because love is everywhere, right? It's so fun to do that, connect songs to stories and illuminate the love in them through them. 

Tried it with TSH and, lol. That didn't work out very well. It's about a world outside of love. Beautiful, in its way. 

I'm not sure if Henry is ENTJ or INTJ because I think there's a good case for inferior Fi (not dip) and inferior Se? 

But I actually think the case for inferior Se is stronger. He said all his life he desired to let go and just not think, just do as he pleased. And... obviously that was his downfall, in more ways than one. His ethics are terrible, but I think his desire to live purely and like a Greek figure of old with their morality makes me think Fi... Crappy Fi with crappy crappy crappy values, but Fi and strong Fi influence nonetheless? 

And I mean, obviously he's introverted (classically) and I think that his world was Ni, trying to figure out the bigger picture. 

I mean, that's my world as an ENFJ, but with him that seems like... his entire universe.


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Hm, I don't think it was that different, really. Just more in-depth. I thought Fi-Te about the other one too, but the number of people arguing made me a bit nervous to post (and that's a rare thing – usually I just ignore them).





angelcat said:


> I STILL think you are an IXTJ type. I don't agree with the Fe/Ti idea. I just... don't. I get a low-order Fi vibe from you. If you asked me to explain it, I couldn't -- but it's there. Though, I've been wrong before.


Third-ing the Te-Fi. I'm a bit nervous having replied in the other thread but I'm just... I don't know... I always put down the communication troubles here to a Te-Fi/Fe-Ti difference. I feel like I have no problem reading shiny in the right tone of voice. I can't nitpick to the proper standard but I feel like if Laurie and I are seeing the same thing (and I believe we are - not in a type sense, just in general) that there's got to be something to that?

Ugh. I frustrate myself. I feel IxTJ but I don't know how to justify it, so I can't ask people to take it seriously.



> Ah, that sounds better. Thanks! :ghost3: I'm very confused as to why no one seems to be taught grammatical terms, or how to use grammar properly (I taught myself how to use a semicolon). It's really necessary in all language learning. Maybe that's one reason few people in the UK learn a second language?


I feel like they got the basic grammar over with as quickly as possible in my primary school, and then moved on to "critical thinking" for high school, but of course the kind of critical thinking where there's still a right intepretation and a wrong interpretation, and looking at the Facebook profiles of people from my home town, I don't think it really made much difference in how people consume media. Sigh. 

I think it's more a values thing, English speakers not learning a second language. When I talk with my European classmates, they all either grew up in bilingual homes or travelled early and so understood the importance of being able to communicate with people who don't speak your mother tongue. (Plus there's the whole popular-culture-all-in-English thing. Much easier to learn a language when you're surrounded by it 24/7.) In my home town the few immigrants we had had all been speaking English for years, even if it was heavily accented. There was no need for us to learn to accommodate them. In fact there's still an assumption that if people don't speak English, there's something wrong with them. 

My grandmother was a teacher and she used to have parents complaining about her teaching a second language all the time. They thought it was a waste of classroom time and resources. No one ever thinks they'll need it. Maybe they'll travel to Bali or Thailand for a holiday but of course anyone who matters already speaks English, sooooo.... :indecisiveness:

Don't mind me. Slightly tipsy and went on a rant. 



> I never understood the whole 'useless degree' thing. Everything has a use, so long as you're willing to look for it. And few degrees are 'useful' (in terms of getting a job) on their own – you usually need work experience as well. Or even just work experience...


So true! Especially in the economy we're in now. Even native residents here are saying they're having trouble finding work... I know I did last time I was living in my home country.

Generally if I choose to do something, it's because I see some kind of use for it in my life. Even if that use is merely "interest"....



> Haha, that sounds familiar. I had a teacher who I thought was a decent person, but a really, really bad lecturer and I got so fed up with his classes. It was horrible, because the subject itself was really interesting, but he just had one way of looking at it and wouldn't accept any other views. It wasn't what I thought university would be.


Oh I've had those too! I always feel bad for them, because I think they must be such sweet people, but they're really not in the right profession and I can't force myself to maintain interest in their subject. But in my case they were just boring, not necessarily closed-minded.

My university experience was pretty good as far as open-mindedness went, if I recall correctly (it was quite a while ago). Then again I majored in languages and comparative cultural studies so I guess that goes with the territory.



> College (or sixth form if you stay at school) is sort of like the end of American highschool, from 16-18, and you take between 3 and 5 A-Level subjects which then decides which university you can apply for. The norm is to take 4 AS-Levels, then drop one in the second year and focus on 3, but people going to the higher-ranking universities can take 5 all the way through. (I took English Literature, Film Studies, Psychology and History in my first year, then dropped History because of the teacher. Because I got decent grades, I could apply to most of the universities, but not Oxford or Cambridge etc... Well, technically I could but I didn't want to because they're only highly ranked because they're old and I'm against that.)
> Basically, your GCSEs from secondary school (age 11-16) get you into college, then your A-Levels from college get you into university, then neither really count once you've graduated and, if you take a Masters or PhD your undergraduate degree no longer really counts.


Okay, thank you for explaining that to me, because I've heard a lot of those terms thrown around but I've always been a bit fuzzy on how they went together. 

For me, I could apply to any university I wanted provided I studied English at a senior level. Other degrees had other prerequisites (e.g. engineering might want 2 sciences plus some kind of advanced mathematics), but I knew I wanted to study languages so I had more freedom when it came to choosing my subjects. The entrance scores were based on standardised testing but also took into account individual grades, plus where you ranked within your class/school/the state... I don't fully understand how it works to be honest - it was pretty messed up, and teachers agreed that I got a bit of a raw deal out of it. My score was enough to get me into the degree I wanted, though, so it didn't matter too much in the long run.

I guess my BA wouldn't matter much if I got a Masters in that area afterwards. So the same thing as in the UK.



> Ah, there's quite a lot of public transport around here (although it's overpriced and runs very badly) but mostly I didn't learn to drive because no one in my family has a car. My sister's now learning, but I kind of don't want to at the moment. Maybe eventually. (Most of my friends can drive.)


I think I took the Tube once or twice in London and just walked everywhere else (and maybe a taxi to/from the airport)? So no real opinions on how the English public transport system works. Here most people agree it's pretty good, but I've heard from a few people that the Swiss is better. I don't see myself going to Switzerland any time soon so I guess I'll have to wallow in my ignorance for the time being.

I don't blame you for not wanting to learn how to drive. I wasn't keen at the start either (one reason why it took me so long to get my licence). I do quite enjoy driving on the highway now, especially when there's not a lot of traffic. I'm still not a fan of driving in the cities, because there's so much to focus on and it's too overwhelming, especially when I'm not familiar with the roads. But I'm glad I can do it, at least. There have been a couple of times where I've needed to take the wheel so while it probably wouldn't've killed us if I didn't drive, it did help keep things a bit more comfortable for us.

I'd say do it when you're ready, provided it isn't anxiety getting in the way.



> I don't like calling people either. My friend has a really cool app that translates what you say into another language (he was using it to speak to me in Japanese) and there's another you can use to scan kanji for their reading/meaning, so they have some good uses.


Oh, I had a Russian tourist in at work the other day who was using a similar kind of app on his tablet. It seemed really useful!



> It's a shame there are still those kinds of attitudes around. I would have hoped everyone could just be chilled and get on with their work. Thankfully, the only time that kind of thing happened to me was in a bakery I was working in. The work experience I did in a publishing house was very laid back, so hopefully it would be more like that?


I really hope so. I don't understand the need for drama when there's work to be done either. Surely it's in everyone's best interests to keep the working environment as smooth and pleasant as possible? At least I always concentrate better in that kind of atmosphere, and it's easier to ask for help when I know there's going to be no negative repercussions, which means I'm doing my job better? Like, why wouldn't you want that?



> Haha, it must be because it's during development. I swear so many people are negatively affected by their teenage years. We should just skip them, hormones and all.


I was a terrible person as a teenager and I'm still scared of other teenagers. LOL.



> It did seem to do me some good to be stuck in the grip for a while, although it wasn't great while it lasted. Still, I'm glad I developed in this way (mostly – some of my adolescence was really not fun), because it's made me more 'aware' of things. I was a very inward-looking child, but I've been forced to look outward.


For me that actually came in my 20's. Being forced to look outward, I mean. I observed plenty as a kid but I was so shy and didn't really have the confidence to put myself out there. As a teenager I was in denial about being depressed and I hadn't even heard of social anxiety. It wasn't until early adulthood that I could accept that a lot of my problems came from mental illness, that I wasn't being a drama queen for thinking about it in those terms, and actually did something about it. 

Of course moving to an introverted culture also helps me to think of myself as more outgoing than I really am. I'm just uncovering a new pattern in my life: if there is a problem, keep moving until it's solved!



> Darn, if they're not cute there's no point.


Sorry. I'm cute enough to make up for it though. ctopus:



> Mine wasn't as bad as yours, I don't think. I just had the blue inhalers (the non-preventative ones you only take when you have an attack). I did notice, actually, when I last took one that I got a very strong reaction that made me shake. Maybe it's a depleted tolerance? Very strange...


I know the one you mean! Mine's grey but sometimes I think it comes in blue packaging. Or maybe some people see it as blue and others see it as grey. Kind of like how my sister and I argue about how a certain dark teal colour is blue or green (it's definitely green and I will fight anyone who says otherwise). 

But yeah, my hypothesis was that my tolerance has gone down because I rarely take it anymore. I'm pretty sure the last time I needed it was a year and a half ago. But I'm still used to the whole childhood I-pretty-much-need-to-OD-on-this-shit-for-it-to-even-work thing, so I go a bit overboard.



> Yes! I am critical of others every so often, but much more critical of myself – I don't really care too much about what other people are doing so long as they're not hurting themselves or others.


I'm quite critical under stress, or if someone seems too much "below" me (intelligence, morals, efficiency, whatever... as far as intelligence and efficiency go, I figure I'm no one special, so if they're even less so than me, it must be pretty bad and therefore it's justified. my goodness I'm exposing way too much of my judgemental side here). But most of the time I'm far too lenient with other people. I'd much rather ascribe good intentions to them and find excuses for their behaviour. Most of the time I actually believe it, too. But for me? Well I can control myself, so the rules are different for me.



> I think you said something similar but much more eloquently, so everyone can refer to your phrasing!


Hahahahaha this is literally how I feel about so many other posters. HOW CAN I WORDS



> I find people imposing opinions on others to be one of the worst things.


Can't argue with you there.



> Thank you for posting about the inferior! :ghost3: That's very similar to me, actually. Especially the choice between expressing either through Ne or Te (oh, extraverted functions!). I was a lot more into expressing through Ne when younger (very roundabout) but then developed Te and now I come across as more blunt (and I actually speak my mind now, so sometimes I also come across as harsh when I don't mean to). The hypercritical thing is a problem for me. I've been told I'm dismissive of people...


Oh good, you related to it! I answered it properly! Hurrah!

I know what you mean about Ne being roundabout. I still favour that approach now, just because it's softer, but of course only a few people really appreciate it and often it's either read as being scatter-brained or underconfident. I appreciate good old Te bluntless in others and I think Thinking type in general appreciate it in me, but unless a Feeler already understands where I'm coming from, they tend to feel hurt when I use it. 

I'm glad you're able to speak your mind now. I'm still learning. I think it will be a slow process for me but I'm optimistic.



> My mum is ESFP, so very much not ESFJ. Although she has 2w1 in her tritype somewhere.


I feel like one of _those_ posters, because I've typed my mother as an ESFJ 2w3, but there's not really much I can do when she's pretty much a caricature of her type/s. 

My boyfriend's mother tested as INTJ and didn't seem to have much of a problem with it. In fact I think her reaction to it was the same as my reaction to learning my type: "oh, so _that's_ what's wrong with me!" If she's not INTJ, she's some other type that enjoys arguing for fun, and who favours constructive criticism as a way of showing support. My boyfriend has trouble seeing her as an introvert but I think he's stuck on the modern social definitions as opposed to the Jungian understanding.




Curiphant said:


> I'm mildly questioning my I in SFP because of what is appearing to be my enneagram so far (which was rapidly formed thanks to fair phantom 8D). Threes tend to be ESFPs not ISFPs?
> 
> Hm. Whatever.


Oh don't put too much stock into the Enneagram/MBTI correlations. Often there's an overlap (sorry for being a bit of a stereotype myself) but it's not obligatory and it's not always cause to suspect you've gotten something wrong. I believe there are other ISFP 7's around here, and I'm pretty sure Telepathic Goose ended up settling on 3 and INFP? If the cognitive processes match ISFP and the motivations match 3 or 7, then obviously that's what you are. :encouragement:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

The movie The Last Dragon was just on TV. I love that fuckin movie. Master Shonuff, "The Shogun of Harlem". lol. Fuckin guy stops people on the street, barges into places, and screams, "Who is the master?" And he better hear his name. I am thinking this guy is an ESFP, or on the Te-Fi axis at least. Either way, he represents the monster of extroversion or Se, to a Ni dom. Every interaction in the world is actually the same thing, every interaction and system poses that question. 


And Bruce Leroy is always running from him. From Se basically. He finally puts it all together at the end, when he remembers the sensei telling him, "There is one place you have not looked, and that is where you will find the master." He finally pushes everything through Se, and kills the guy. It is similar to Ni and Lewis's point about time. Se is the master of Ni in a sense. It is a master slave relationship, but where does it end or begin? It becomes an infinite circle. You are not the master of anything. You are chained. It goes both ways.













It is like Lewis and Lee again. "This moment contains all moments." Don't think, just do.


----------



## ElliCat

@shinynotshiny I tried to PM you about Enneagram but you're not accepting PM's? I'm hesitant to address it publicly, firstly because I get self-conscious in front of a crowd, and secondly because often it brings up a lot of sensitive issues - and I know in your case there is also mental health to consider. I won't pretend I'm an expert but I at least studied it enough to type myself and a few people close to me, so the most I can offer is someone to bounce ideas off. But the offer is open, if you want to go there.


----------



## Immolate

ElliCat said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ I tried to PM you about Enneagram but you're not accepting PM's? I'm hesitant to address it publicly, firstly because I get self-conscious in front of a crowd, and secondly because often it brings up a lot of sensitive issues - and I know in your case there is also mental health to consider. I won't pretend I'm an expert but I at least studied it enough to type myself and a few people close to me, so the most I can offer is someone to bounce ideas off. But the offer is open, if you want to go there.


Oh, I'm so sorry! I think I have to change my settings somewhere. I'll do that then PM you. Thank you


----------



## orbit

Oh wait hold on. My type might be changing and I have to see if this "crisis" will ensue or be averted. 

(but even more lolz, 1w9 ain't common for XSFPs in general)


----------



## orbit

@ElliCat, I'm not putting much stock on them ^^, thank you for the reassurance though. It's kind of acting like a catalyst for some of my concerns that are very small and it's not very serious. It's more like I'm trying to catch the problem that may or may not exist. Like trying to catch breast cancer? 

Come to think of it, I am treating this kind of as reason to suspect something is wrong. Maybe the enneagram is wrong. Hm. What is the subconcious telling me?

Why did nobody post because now I double posted and it's all your faults.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Oh wait hold on. My type might be changing and I have to see if this "crisis" will ensue or be averted.
> 
> (but even more lolz, 1w9 ain't common for XSFPs in general)


This is the thread for identity crises.


----------



## 68097

I need to make more lists. And do what is on them. And show some self-discipline. 

Eh, tomorrow. 

ETA: I think part of the problem is boredom. Everything I "do" I have done for ages, so it's boring to me now. I never do anything (except write) for very long. And, since no one is much around online in the summer, the incentive to produce anything well thought out is minimized. Why be a genius if no one is there to read it? (The Doctor: "I'm up here being brilliant and no one is standing around looking impressed!")

So, yes, I'm bored... with blogging... with talking about MBTI on tumblr... with answering questions about it ... 

I need to find a new hobby. Pronto. Maybe I should go back to my hoop dancing, or start dancing in general or something...


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> Does anyone else face an indescribable urge to do nothing in the summer?
> 
> I just can't bring myself to answer any tumblr questions, or write any blog posts, or do much of anything worthwhile right now.


I get the feeling I'm the only person who's lazy consistently here. :wink:

Well, to be fair, I'm only lazy because everything I do that has real world implications doesn't interest me. Doesn't apply here, where I can chat for ages about stuff I'm interested in. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> So, yes, I'm bored... with blogging... with talking about MBTI on tumblr... with answering questions about it ...


Are you giving this up for the moment? Does it have anything to do with the PerC elite?


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> I get the feeling I'm the only person who's lazy consistently here. :wink:
> 
> Well, to be fair, I'm only lazy because everything I do that has real world implications doesn't interest me. Doesn't apply here, where I can chat for ages about stuff I'm interested in. :happy:


SLACKER. 



shinynotshiny said:


> Are you giving this up for the moment? Does it have anything to do with the PerC elite?


No, nothing to do with that. I just... I guess I feel like I know a fair amount now, so I'm not all that interested in continuing to 'learn by teaching.' This happens to me a lot. I'll become very knowledgeable about a topic and then lose interest in actively discussing it, because I've discussed it so many times before. That stereotype about Si just loving doing the same thing for years on end is certainly not the case with me. I exhaust a topic and then go in search of a new one, and I exist in a state of perpetual boredom until I find it... but I can't muster the intellectual energy at the present to dive into Socionics or Enneagram so I'm not sure what I'll do.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> SLACKER.


Damn straight. :wink:



angelcat said:


> No, nothing to do with that. I just... I guess I feel like I know a fair amount now, so I'm not all that interested in continuing to 'learn by teaching.' This happens to me a lot. I'll become very knowledgeable about a topic and then lose interest in actively discussing it, because I've discussed it so many times before. That stereotype about Si just loving doing the same thing for years on end is certainly not the case with me. I exhaust a topic and then go in search of a new one, and I exist in a state of perpetual boredom until I find it... but I can't muster the intellectual energy at the present to dive into Socionics or Enneagram so I'm not sure what I'll do.


Ti-Ne, learn about a topic till you're bored with it, then move on. :laughing:


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Ti-Ne, learn about a topic till you're bored with it, then move on. :laughing:


... yup. Just... yup.

The interesting thing is to see how long the obsessions last. I've observed this not only in myself but in my friends. Depending on the amount of information to go through, obsessions can last up to 3 years or more. Sometimes, if it's in the realm of 'oh my gosh, i need to watch every movie this actor ever made!!!' it can last mere weeks. 

But... these people who do the same thing for 20 years. Who are they? How do they exist? What makes them do that? Don't they ever get bored??


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> ... yup. Just... yup.
> 
> The interesting thing is to see how long the obsessions last. I've observed this not only in myself but in my friends. Depending on the amount of information to go through, obsessions can last up to 3 years or more. Sometimes, if it's in the realm of 'oh my gosh, i need to watch every movie this actor ever made!!!' it can last mere weeks.
> 
> But... these people who do the same thing for 20 years. Who are they? How do they exist? What makes them do that? Don't they ever get bored??


You need true passion~


----------



## 68097

shinynotshiny said:


> You need true passion~


... for painting model trains? LOL


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> ... for painting model trains? LOL


Some people have a passion for simple pleasures~


----------



## Purrfessor

angelcat said:


> Does anyone else face an indescribable urge to do nothing in the summer?
> 
> I just can't bring myself to answer any tumblr questions, or write any blog posts, or do much of anything worthwhile right now.


Well I become very physical in the summer. I lose my sense of poetry, my knack for words, and my obsessive thinking but I make up for it with intense physical commitment and a sense of adventure. So I do lose productivity but I also gain productivity.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> ... yup. Just... yup.
> 
> The interesting thing is to see how long the obsessions last. I've observed this not only in myself but in my friends. Depending on the amount of information to go through, obsessions can last up to 3 years or more. Sometimes, if it's in the realm of 'oh my gosh, i need to watch every movie this actor ever made!!!' it can last mere weeks.
> 
> But... these people who do the same thing for 20 years. Who are they? How do they exist? What makes them do that? Don't they ever get bored??


The funny thing is, mine works the opposite way, I learn about a topic, then, if I like it enough, my interests gradually start to divert from that into sub-interests of that one thing, eventually rendering the original interest moot, it's too widespread for me to call it just an interest now. For interest, MBTI, I've been at this for 3 years, and still enjoy it immensely. :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

I dislike when you notice someone lurking a thread and they show up whenever there's a new post, but they never reply. I mean, obviously they have the right to sit there and not give any input, that's not the issue. The issue is...

_I want to know your thoughts._

Oh well.


----------



## Dangerose

Update: switching back to ESFJ
Not totally convinced it's my type, but I feel like if I have this typing I'll be more inspired to be...productive? Elegant? Jane-Bennett-esque? So I'm going to stick with ESFJ for now)


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> Update: switching back to ESFJ
> Not totally convinced it's my type, but I feel like if I have this typing I'll be more inspired to be...productive? Elegant? Jane-Bennett-esque? So I'm going to stick with ESFJ for now)












_Being_ a type is not a bad way to find out if you are that type, and cognitively responding as that type can really do wonders for your cognition. Thinking I was an INTP made me less anxious about conflict, and more inclined to exercise my TiNe. (Either that, or it sent me into a semi-permanent loop. Take your pick.) When I thought my Ne was higher, I was more inclined to embrace new ideas. It was not entirely 'natural' in me, but it helped those functions develop. That's why I don't think mistyping is a bad thing, because eventually you discover the truth, but in the process you have learned more about yourself. 

When I wondered about Fe-dom for myself, I felt a little bolder and assertive; but I could not keep it up. It drained me. 

Productivity... I feel like the SJs are more driven in general, but that may be an erroneous perception. Perhaps it is because we are sensory-oriented, so we like to see our ideas brought into reality, made into something we can see, or touch, or read, or look at. So if being an SJ for awhile makes you more driven, that's a good thing. And if you're an ENFJ and later figure that out, you'll have adopted some good habits along the way. 

I hate being idle. It feels like time is slipping away from me, being wasted, yet I'm not entirely sure WHAT I want to produce at any given time. I procrastinate not so much out of laziness but because I know my nature -- once I start something, I become obsessed and cannot stop until it's finished. If that means sewing an entire Ren Fair costume in one day, so be it. Writing a book in two months? Been there, done that. I need to figure out how to balance myself better, so I don't go through these intense stints of workworkworkwork--exhausted... slackslackslackborednow!


----------



## fair phantom

I thought Jane Bennett was an INFP.


----------



## orbit

Being ESFP was tiring. I'm starting to understand how I use Se a lot but I felt uncomfortable thinking I was. I do live purely in the moment as I've discovered through my enneagram rants with slight regard to the future. I might be ESFP in reality, but I reject the thought and it's healthy for me to believe I am ISFP. 

How did I ever think I used Ne/Si? I like my Se :/


----------



## Barakiel

I'm still not sure what type I am, debating between Ne and Se atm, but I remember a time when I accepted I was ENTP, and it was pretty tiring, although perhaps that's just due to the fact that talking exerts a lot more energy than I'm used to. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

I wonder what happened to hoopla.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I wonder what happened to hoopla.


Me too.


----------



## orbit

She was murdered by a certain cupcake baking grandmother

On a side note, I rhetorically wonder why I'm trying to learn how to type other people.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Wait... are we... discussing the types of the characters in _Pride and Prejudice_?


Don't ask me, I haven't even seen the movie, and if we're going by the usual book to movie adaptation, it's probably unfaithful. :laughing:


----------



## orbit

My brother and I are both horrible at languages. He has no patience for it and I don't have the speaking abilities/talents for it. Just can't make the right sounds. 
Pretty sure my family is a family of ISXPs except mi madre who clashes with the rest of us.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> My brother and I are both horrible at languages. He has no patience for it and I don't have the speaking abilities/talents for it. Just can't make the right sounds.
> Pretty sure my family is a family of ISXPs except mi madre who clashes with the rest of us.


You need to shut up. You are incredible at Spanish.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> My brother and I are both horrible at languages. He has no patience for it and I don't have the speaking abilities/talents for it. Just can't make the right sounds.
> Pretty sure my family is a family of ISXPs except mi madre who clashes with the rest of us.


Describe your day in Spanish~


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## Pressed Flowers

_I got a job. _


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> _I got a job. _


Dondé?



shinynotshiny said:


> Describe your day in Spanish~


No me gusta hablar español, pero estoy bien con la escritura(?) 

Me desperté a las cinco en la manana porque me gato quería mi amo. Yo desayuné y después yo conduje con mi padre por un hora. Era asi asi porque yo estoy aprendiendo(?)
Yo dormí— Me molesta "por" y "para", me olivido siempre como usar— tambien no sé como los pronombres(?)

I'm only in Spanish three and they still haven't gone in depth about por qnd para or how to use pronouns D8


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## Pressed Flowers

@Curiphant I'm going to babysit a family member. Not a lot of money, but it'll give me something to do, I'll make some money, and I think it'll be pretty enjoyable. The best part is, I can call my friends tomorrow and not feel ashamed of myself for not having a job while they've had theirs for so long.


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> @Curiphant I'm going to babysit a family member. Not a lot of money, but it'll give me something to do, I'll make some money, and I think it'll be pretty enjoyable. The best part is, I can call my friends tomorrow and not feel ashamed of myself for not having a job while they've had theirs for so long.


Mi hermano no tengo un trabajo pero el es mayor que tú. 
Then again he volunteers a lot


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Dondé?
> 
> 
> No me gusta hablar español, pero estoy bien con la escritura(?)
> 
> Me desperté a las cinco en la manana porque me gato quería mi amo. Yo desayuné y después yo conduje con mi padre por un hora. Era asi asi porque yo estoy aprendiendo(?)
> Yo dormí— Me molesta "por" y "para", me olivido siempre como usar— tambien no sé como los pronombres(?)
> 
> I'm only in Spanish three and they still haven't gone in depth about por qnd para or how to use pronouns D8


Your cat wanted your love?
You drove with your dad?
It was so-so because you're still learning?
Yo dormí por una hora.

:toast:


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## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Wait... are we... discussing the types of the characters in _Pride and Prejudice_?


Yes.

Congratulations on your job!

(I'm so ashamed that I speak no Spanish, I grew up mostly in Arizona so there's no excuse, except that the schools just didn't teach it? I have this weird (probably Si come to think of it) problem that whenever I try to learn Spanish, I just get really hungry. Because...the only time I ever really heard Spanish was in Mexican food restaurants. It's also one of those things where I feel like I should speak Spanish, so it's not any fun to learn it. But I really really should.)
Also, my whole family speaks Spanish. Like, my whole extended family, it's madness. I don't understand why they never taught me? My grandfather was a military translator for Spanish and Portuguese. My dad lived in Portugal for years. I feel like I should speak Portuguese...but I don't :/


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Curiphant said:


> Mi hermano no tengo un trabajo pero el es mayor que tú.
> Then again he volunteers a lot


I kind of understood that sentence!

And well, being ahead of your brother always comforts me lol 
@Oswin I just started P+P, and I was wondering about types! Is Mr. Bingley ESFJ?


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> I kind of understood that sentence!
> 
> And well, being ahead of your brother always comforts me lol
> @Oswin I just started P+P, and I was wondering about types! Is Mr. Bingley ESFJ?


I adore him so much, but I hadn't really considered his type. ESFJ makes sense I think? He seems very emotionally open (compared to Darcy at least), kinda suave in a sweet boyish way (at least, that's how I read him) and I think he has some Ne going on. 
I assume Mrs Bennett is ESFJ or even ESTJ (I just don't want her in my type), Mr Bennett probably...INTP?
Elizabeth is usually typed ENFJ I think) I honestly...don't love her though. She feels like a kind of non-character to me. Emma Wodehouse is my Jane Austen alter-ego (I think she's ESFJ, too...Fe-dom at the very least). Jane Austen's kinda Fe heavy, come to think of it.

edit: I know my last statement is kinda a given, but, you know...I hadn't thought about it so much. I assume she herself was some sort of FJ. I'd guess ISFJ since she really shines in taking the literary conventions and playing around with them.


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> I had never considered that)
> I guess I can see it but...I don't know, I just somehow see her as the perfect SFJ)


All her troubles in the book basically come about because she doesn't know how to display her deep emotions for Bingley to society's satisfaction. It's an Fi problem.


----------



## Barakiel

Do you guys like teaching? I don't know how to think about it, on one hand, I don't like repeating myself, as you can probably surmise. But on the other hand... there's some kind of thrill in it. :happy:

And I know what your answer is gonna be, @alittlebear. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> All her troubles in the book basically come about because she doesn't know how to display her deep emotions for Bingley to society's satisfaction. It's an Fi problem.


Spoiler for alittlebear)

* *





I guess, but I saw her as doing that because she thought it was what was expected? I mean, she had no problem telling Elizabeth, and everyone including Bingley seemed to get it, it was only Darcy who didn't see it. I got the feeling that she wasn't expressive out of reserve, because she didn't want to lose face, not...inability. And her whole thing about seeing the best in people -- which in my opinion makes Jane the shining star of P+P, seemed very Fe to me. But I'll have to rethink her in a Fi context.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Do you guys like teaching? I don't know how to think about it, on one hand, I don't like repeating myself, as you can probably surmise. But on the other hand... there's some kind of thrill in it. :happy:
> 
> And I know what your answer is gonna be, @alittlebear. :wink:


I do. My biggest regret is that I didn't graduate high school and start training for teaching. I'm actually pretty good at it and I think it's the closest thing to a vocation I could have. I think what happened was that I wanted to be a teacher as a kid and then I heard something about how kids just want to be teachers because teachers are the only adults they see and I didn't want to be seen as a goody-two-shoes or like a teacher's pet I guess so I gave up that idea so I forgot about it when I was actually thinking about careers.

And I wanted to be all fancy and have a higher-status job which...obviously didn't happen, so, yeah) Stupid light 3 influence that wasn't enough to actually make me succeed)

If I could choose any Enneatype it would be 3) Seems so helpful)


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> Spoiler for alittlebear)
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess, but I saw her as doing that because she thought it was what was expected? I mean, she had no problem telling Elizabeth, and everyone including Bingley seemed to get it, it was only Darcy who didn't see it. I got the feeling that she wasn't expressive out of reserve, because she didn't want to lose face, not...inability. And her whole thing about seeing the best in people -- which in my opinion makes Jane the shining star of P+P, seemed very Fe to me. But I'll have to rethink her in a Fi context.



* *




If she was simply doing as expected, Darcy wouldn't have been suspicious...and Bingley wouldn't have been so easily convinced. The other characters saw it because they _know_ Jane and that she is reserved with her emotions. I believe Elizabeth says at one point: "That's just how she is!" Indicating it is habitual. I don't recall any information in the text indicating that Jane is the sort of character who worries about saving face. I don't see how seeing the best in people is an Fe trait. If I'd associate with a function at all it would be Ne.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I do. My biggest regret is that I didn't graduate high school and start training for teaching. I'm actually pretty good at it and I think it's the closest thing to a vocation I could have. I think what happened was that I wanted to be a teacher as a kid and then I heard something about how kids just want to be teachers because teachers are the only adults they see and I didn't want to be seen as a goody-two-shoes or like a teacher's pet I guess so I gave up that idea so I forgot about it when I was actually thinking about careers.
> 
> And I wanted to be all fancy and have a higher-status job which...obviously didn't happen, so, yeah) Stupid light 3 influence that wasn't enough to actually make me succeed)
> 
> If I could choose any Enneatype it would be 3) Seems so helpful)


I have a lot of regrets, but none of them involve working harder or actually getting a job. :laughing: I just asked this question because I have this strange need to solve people's problems, perhaps it's a form of patronization that they can't solve their own, or perhaps I'm just ignoring my own, but hey, pessimism! :wink:

Wait, are we choosing Enneatypes? 8 all the way. :kitteh:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she was simply doing as expected, Darcy wouldn't have been suspicious...and Bingley wouldn't have been so easily convinced. The other characters saw it because they _know_ Jane and that she is reserved with her emotions. I believe Elizabeth says at one point: "That's just how she is!" Indicating it is habitual. I don't recall any information in the text indicating that Jane is the sort of character who worries about saving face. I don't see how seeing the best in people is an Fe trait. If I'd associate with a function at all it would be Ne.



* *





Fair enough) I hope you know this shakes my whole understanding of the novel and Jane is still going to be my SFJ inspiration...but I am more than half convinced)
I don't see her as a high Ne user (she just gives off this really collected, in-order Si vibe), but I guess that can be a Fi thing, and the seeing-the-best can be a Ne thing)
This feels weird but makes sense)


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> I have a lot of regrets, but none of them involve working harder or actually getting a job. :laughing: I just asked this question because I have this strange need to solve people's problems, perhaps it's a form of patronization that they can't solve their own, or perhaps I'm just ignoring my own, but hey, pessimism! :wink:
> 
> Wait, are we choosing Enneatypes? 8 all the way. :kitteh:


Way to turn a positive character trait into a negative one!))
I love Enneagram because it tells me that even intimidating 3s and 8s have their weaknesses and I _know what they are_)
But yeah, I want 3)


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> Ok, the only thing I can think of about the ballerina line is:
> 1. It's a play on the French word 'fin'...end, like, something that seems graceful and beautiful but you are afraid to see the ending?
> 2. It's a comparison of fish to ballerinas, like...angelfish, the ballerinas look like angelfish but you can't see the fins that are allowing them to move so gracefully...you've lost sight of the thing that allows them to move beautifully, the divine 'spark' if you will?
> 
> sorry, that's weak, best I've got)


Over the years I thought about mermaids, skin diseases, and just metaphor fin=something shameful.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> Over the years I thought about mermaids, skin diseases, and just metaphor fin=something shameful.


Oh, I hadn't thought about mermaids! maybe that's it. Like...the fin is the half that's hidden in the water.

Are fins shameful?


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> Oh, I hadn't thought about mermaids! maybe that's it. Like...the fin is the half that's hidden in the water.
> 
> Are fins shameful?


I imagine ballerinas would find fins inconvenient since they are supposed to look pretty and delicate to the public.

Or perhaps it meant "dark-ish secrets". I don't know why ballerinas, though.

____

@angelcat Murder Rooms is awesome. Doyle's level of rush and completely emotional decisions there, though.
____

Mom: "How long am I supposed to wait for my Birthday congratulations?"

I FORGOT IT's HER BIRTHDAY TODAY


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Do you guys like teaching? I don't know how to think about it, on one hand, I don't like repeating myself, as you can probably surmise. But on the other hand... there's some kind of thrill in it. :happy:
> 
> And I know what your answer is gonna be, @alittlebear. :wink:


Teaching is love. Teaching is life. 

Keep in mind I am saying this _before_ my first paid day with a child.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oswin said:


> I do. My biggest regret is that I didn't graduate high school and start training for teaching. I'm actually pretty good at it and I think it's the closest thing to a vocation I could have. I think what happened was that I wanted to be a teacher as a kid and then I heard something about how kids just want to be teachers because teachers are the only adults they see and I didn't want to be seen as a goody-two-shoes or like a teacher's pet I guess so I gave up that idea so I forgot about it when I was actually thinking about careers.
> 
> And I wanted to be all fancy and have a higher-status job which...obviously didn't happen, so, yeah) Stupid light 3 influence that wasn't enough to actually make me succeed)
> 
> If I could choose any Enneatype it would be 3) Seems so helpful)


Oswin... You know it's never too late to go back to school, right? You're 19. My mom went to school to get her teaching degree when she was like 28, and she's been a very successful teacher, she's gotten her Master's in it. And the cool thing about education is that, no lie, nearly every college has a program for it. 

If that's what you want to do, Oswin, you need to not hold yourself back.


----------



## 68097

fair phantom said:


> @Oswin On second thought, I can see Jane Austen being an ISFJ of the @angelcat and @hoopla variety. But I also think Ti-Fe is a possibility.


Jane Austen's books are all about mocking society and the people in it. Her letters show a profound disinterest in thinking about anyone's feelings other than her own, and she actually gets on her sister's case for Fe-stuff. She was a IXTJ type, probably INTJ.

The Bennets: Mrs. Bennet is a Fe-dom. Interfere with everyone, complain about her nerves constantly -- Jane was mocking Fe-doms. Her husband is INTP. Lizzie is ENFJ. Jane ... She's Si and Fi, so if she's INFP there's no real Ne, but she's not an ISTJ like Mary. Mr. Bingley ... yeah, ESFJ sounds right. EVERYTHING IS POSITIVELY CHARMING. More Fe-mocking. 

Emma Woodhouse -- another ENFJ. No Ne there, not really. Specific vision for what she wants, ignores everything that doesn't fit, has zero ability to read external connections beyond what she wants from them... again, Jane is mocking Fe.



Greyhart said:


> @angelcat Murder Rooms is awesome. Doyle's level of rush and completely emotional decisions there, though.


I assume this is about the first episode? Yeah, Doyle is totally knee-jerk in that one. He calms down and becomes an introvert in the rest of the series, though (ISFJ instead of ESFJ, lol).


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> I assume this is about the first episode? Yeah, Doyle is totally knee-jerk in that one. He calms down and becomes an introvert in the rest of the series, though (ISFJ instead of ESFJ, lol).


I'm on 3rd episode and he keeps doing it! I assumed SP >_< Dr. Bell, though. INTP? I thought INTJ at first (mostly by the way he carries himself) but now I'm leaning Ti and Ne.

I too thought that your avatar people are eating that flower.


----------



## 68097

Greyhart said:


> I'm on 3rd episode and he keeps doing it! I assumed SP >_< Dr. Bell, though. INTP? I thought INTJ at first (mostly by the way he carries himself) but now I'm leaning Ti and Ne.


Interesting. I think wearing his emotions so openly, and being so easily suckered by people appealing to his outer awareness, is ... Fe. And his eagerness to brainstorm seems Ne, so I still think SFJ.

Yes. Bell is an INTP. A lovely, healthy, good-natured one too. I adore him.


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Interesting. I think wearing his emotions so openly, and being so easily suckered by people appealing to his outer awareness, is ... Fe. And his eagerness to brainstorm seems Ne, so I still think SFJ.
> 
> Yes. Bell is an INTP. A lovely, healthy, good-natured one too. I adore him.


I can see that I assumed being swept by Fe = Se.


----------



## Dangerose

alittlebear said:


> Oswin... You know it's never too late to go back to school, right? You're 19. My mom went to school to get her teaching degree when she was like 28, and she's been a very successful teacher, she's gotten her Master's in it. And the cool thing about education is that, no lie, nearly every college has a program for it.
> 
> If that's what you want to do, Oswin, you need to not hold yourself back.


20! 20 already...going on 21 uffer: (this pufferfish represents frigid terror to me)
But no, point taken. It's more a matter of...I thought engineering was what I wanted, I thought psychology was what I wanted, those lasted about 2 weeks. I have a long track record of convincing myself I'm going to stick with something and be committed and then...it falls apart, and it's sort-of an expensive mistake to make. And, I mean, I could suddenly die at any point in the next few years, should I really be devoting my time to something later on that might not even pay off? I mean...

...ok, you don't need to hear all this, but thank you for the encouragement) I'll just...need a clearer picture before I sign on anywhere)

That above bit sounded crazy Si-Ne so it might invalidate my next point, but I logged on because I realized why I'm struggling to accept ESFJ as my type...

...which is, I was pondering the Enneagram, because I finally caught up to the bit where I research all about 2s, and it was just really awful yet...probably a good step. And it shed a lot of light on what a terrible person I am, the areas where I am truly awful, not the areas I tell myself I'm awful in...

Ok, so I'm 100% convinced I'm a 2, it fits like a glove, yet I'm not typical in the 2 fashion of being really helpful and such...far from it. I never realized the extent of it until this point, but I'm so caught up in what I want, and what's easiest, that I view *most people* as just obstacles I have to deal with...not very 2ish I know or very Fe. But the one lady was talking about how 2s really have the world in two groups...they're lords, they're kings, and there are the plebeians, and there are the gods. And...I have _so many plebeians._ I typically think of myself as so humble...as lower than others...but ugh, this is a whole different matter...

The point I want to make is that I don't really love people...not in real life. I love them in the shadowy fortress of my mind, and it's not false, there is love there...but in real life, if they are _difficult_, I don't. I don't really want to talk about how deeply this runs, but...I really don't give myself to other people. I'll give them gifts, I'll give compliments, and pretend that makes up for it, but in all honesty money is expendable to me, it fails to mean anything for me, it's my way of making up for not...being kind. 

I have a common dream that I'll be a servant in the house of someone, either one of the real 'gods' in my life or a dream-figure, and that's how I view myself ideally, but there's something off in those dreams usually or I'm not doing the job quite right...and then I asked myself, if these people were 'real' to you, if they were difficult, would you polish their shoes? Would you take trouble for them? and...you know...I don't think I would. Not gladly at least. And this is how, to me, I'm not an SFJ. As a Fe-dom and an SFJ, I should be concerned with other people, and I am, but I totally fail to...love them practically. I can _flatter_ them, I can pray for them, I can give them gifts, I can make concessions, I can bake them cupcakes, but in real life I don't _do_ things for them, I don't even really coexist with them, I have a terrible double-standard where I love them on the theoretical manner but can ignore them or blindly see them unhappy or uncomfortable without bothering myself. Obviously it's something I'll have to work on, and I'm not trying to excuse it, but...you know, I feel like Si is there practically, I think it excels in...actually caring that someone's back hurts, and getting the back-warmer, whereas I'm more likely to go like, "Huh try sitting in a new position or call the doctor" and...I don't have _that thing._ I should but I don't.

Does this make sense? I realize it sounds a little petty and weird written out, especially when I didn't give any examples, but it's a big deal, and this is why Si feels like the wrong fit.


----------



## Dangerose

Greyhart said:


> I too thought that your avatar people are eating that flower.


I still think her avatar people are eating that flower.
It's adorable but they're definitely eating the flower.


----------



## Greyhart

Oswin said:


> I still think her avatar people are eating that flower.
> It's adorable but they're definitely eating the flower.


Well, people do cover rose petals in sugar and eat them. Eating fresh flower will constitute as raw food diet.

Loved this quote. (from murder rooms) One way to look at photography.


> Photography is like no other art. Painters must use oil and brushes. Their work is adulterated by their talent, distorted by imagination and style, but here you see these people as they really are. The same light that touched them, burned their image onto the photographic plate, and if that light illuminated their souls, then here are their souls.


----------



## 68097

Oswin said:


> As a Fe-dom and an SFJ, I should be concerned with other people, and I am, but I totally fail to...love them practically. I can _flatter_ them, I can pray for them, I can give them gifts, I can make concessions, I can bake them cupcakes, but in real life I don't _do_ things for them, I don't even really coexist with them, I have a terrible double-standard where I love them on the theoretical manner but can ignore them or blindly see them unhappy or uncomfortable without bothering myself. Obviously it's something I'll have to work on, and I'm not trying to excuse it, but...you know, I feel like Si is there practically, I think it excels in...actually caring that someone's back hurts, and getting the back-warmer, whereas I'm more likely to go like, "Huh try sitting in a new position or call the doctor" and...I don't have _that thing._ I should but I don't.
> 
> Does this make sense? I realize it sounds a little petty and weird written out, especially when I didn't give any examples, but it's a big deal, and this is why Si feels like the wrong fit.


Maybe you're not Si. Or maybe you're just normal, and people don't talk about this.

I feel the same as you, most of the time. I'm just not a caretaker personality. Not at all. I'd rather be off discussing intensive topics like whether or not curses are self-propagating; if we inherit or invent them ourselves. When my brother was so sick he almost died, I rather awkwardly hung out with him a bit, cleaned his kitchen when my mother intimated I should, but I did not wait on him hand and foot. I mostly just insisted that we ought to DO SOMETHING like call the doctor.

This idea that SFJs are loving and kind and mothering and good at taking care of people -- that may be true for some, but not all, because in me, it's a myth. It's more true of my ISFJ friend, but she really IS a healthy 2. All she wants to do is give love, and be loved in return. And ... honestly, love never crosses my mind. As a 6, I'd rather be safe.

Do you really think you're a core 2?

ETA: I'm not saying you ARE SFJ, but I am saying you can't disqualify yourself FROM SFJ because you don't feel like you love and serve people enough. That's stereotyping.


----------



## Immolate

Good morning, Ni Thread. I have no idea what you guys are talking about, need to catch up :joyous:

I've been doing some thinking. Because my 80Q thread is at a stand-still and Entropic doesn't seem to have any interest in how my typing progresses, I'm lifting the "ban" on contributing. You don't know anything about socionics? No worries. Poke and prod, bring up contradictions in my answers, question my authenticity, have at it.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart Is Murder Rooms Netflix friendly?

I watched two movies yesterday. How indulgent. I always imagine all that I will accomplish with the absence of the internet; I realized how naïve it was to not consider that all media subliminally alters your mind to a state of pure procrastination.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> @Greyhart Is Murder Rooms Netflix friendly?
> 
> I watched two movies yesterday. How indulgent. I always imagine all that I will accomplish with the absence of the internet; I realized how naïve it was to not consider that all media subliminally alters your mind to a state of pure procrastination.


Netflix is not my country friendly so I wouldn't know. :tongue: Only one episode left for me. Sad.



shinynotshiny said:


> Good morning, Ni Thread. I have no idea what you guys are talking about, need to catch up :joyous:
> 
> I've been doing some thinking. Because my 80Q thread is at a stand-still and Entropic doesn't seem to have any interest in how my typing progresses, I'm lifting the "ban" on contributing. You don't know anything about socionics? No worries. Poke and prod, bring up contradictions in my answers, question my authenticity, have at it.


I'll try.

Meanwhile my clever title did not in fact attract people. I think socionics people got repulsed by it.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I'll try.
> 
> Meanwhile my clever title did not in fact attract people. I think socionics people got repulsed by it.


No obligation.

The socionics boards may be a bit too serious for the likes of us :exterminate:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@fair phantom

Sometimes I actually do things outside of the everyday mundane activities that structure my life. Who knew.

I also occasionally need to clear my head.

Though I would like to make a quick announcement: 


* *




*PSA*: Please quit calling me Hoops. 

I feel weird whilst receiving nicknames, but rarely stand up against them. I'm too poised and composed in such situations. "Oh call me whatever". Boiling with translucent rage hidden by the saucepan cover. <3

I mostly kid of course but I only like pet names with those I've established strong relationships with. Aside from a middle school clique nick naming me "Spider Pig" when The Simpsons Movie was all the rage. That was awesome. Even if it still made me... uncomfortable somehow.

*In conclusion:* Nick Names are cool and are like badges of honor in their own right, but my brain cannot wrap it's head around them.

I'm too formal.




Greetings and salutations to you all after the brief yet turbulent departure.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> No obligation.
> 
> The socionics boards may be a bit too serious for the likes of us :exterminate:


If I am not funny, what I am even?


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> If I am not funny, what I am even?


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Please quit calling me Hoops.
> 
> I feel weird whilst receiving nicknames, but rarely stand up against them. I'm too poised and composed in such situations. "Oh call me whatever". Boiling with translucent rage hidden by the saucepan cover. <3
> 
> I mostly kid of course but I only like pet names with those I've established strong relationships with. Aside from a middle school clique nick naming me "Spider Pig" when The Simpsons Movie was all the rage. That was awesome. Even if it still made me... uncomfortable somehow.
> 
> I'm too formal.


Yes, I figured this would be the case. No nicknames from me.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> If I am not funny, what I am even?


Exactly where does that come from?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> Yes, I figured this would be the case. No nicknames from me.


It is a sweet gesture. 

I appreciate it.

It's sort of like being offered delicious toffee and being grateful you've been given such an offer, and despite your emotions wanting to show gratitude and your tastebuds being tantalized by the prospects of sugar, you must decline due to diabetes.

I like being hyperbolic so please scale that down to the appropriate measure. <3


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> It is a sweet gesture.
> 
> I appreciate it.
> 
> It's sort of like being offered delicious toffee and being grateful you've been given such an offer, and despite your emotions wanting to show gratitude and your tastebuds being tantalized by the prospects of sugar, you must decline due to diabetes.
> 
> I like being hyperbolic so please scale that down to the appropriate measure. <3


People hardly use my name real name in "real life," so it's a matter of habit and familiarity. No worries.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> Exactly where does that come from?


The picture or the sudden existential crisis?



shinynotshiny said:


>












_____________

my bff gave list of stuff she want for bday to her bf so now he oversees it and will coordinate large purchases that would require multiple people cashing in. Just a thought about being controlled in this way pisses me off sO MUCH THAT I'D RATHER FIGURE OUT WHICH PRESENT TO GET ON MY OWN OR JUST GIVE HER THE MONEY THAN REPORT TO ANYBODY. WHAT WRONG WITH ME? Desire to resist order and chain of command so strong. In fact, I actually feel a petulant urge to sabotage it somehow. I just hate when there's a rigid social ladder of any kind - I don't want to control or be controlled. I thought I grew out of this.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> my bff gave list of stuff she want for bday to her bf so now he oversees it and will coordinate large purchases that would require multiple people cashing in. Just a thought about being controlled in this way pisses me off sO MUCH THAT I'D RATHER FIGURE OUT WHICH PRESENT TO GET ON MY OWN OR JUST GIVE HER THE MONEY THAN REPORT TO ANYBODY. WHAT WRONG WITH ME? Desire to resist order and chain of command so strong. In fact, I actually feel a petulant urge to sabotage it somehow. I just hate when there's a rigid social ladder of any kind. I thought I grew out of this.


There's nothing wrong with you, I also hate when people do this. Especially when they list what they want, though.

"Anything you'd like for Christmas?" 
"Yes, this book right here, specifically this one, you see it?" 
"Yes, I see it, I don't even spend that much on myself, but okay, sure." 
"Yay." 
"(fuck you)"


----------



## Deadly Decorum

shinynotshiny said:


> People hardly use my name real name in "real life," so it's a matter of habit and familiarity. No worries.


Lol, I go by a nickname derived from by birth name, actually.
@Greyhart You can't live without an existential crisis; that is the definition of life, so the former.

Also, few people regress past the age of 15 or so. This is a personal conjecture; due to interpretations of anecdotal evidence, I would say no one becomes the adult they are told they will subsequently blossom into during a precedent time. 

I don't feel as if I'm in my early 20's at all, despite my obligations and unique, age specific privileges. It's as if I'm living a lie. Here's to a perpetual teenage philosophy. Cheers.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Lol, I go by a nickname derived from by birth name, actually.
> @_Greyhart_ You can't live without an existential crisis; that is the definition of life, so the former.


I go by about 6 :encouragement:


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> Lol, I go by a nickname derived from by birth name, actually.
> @Greyhart You can't live without an existential crisis; that is the definition of life, so the former.


Overconfident Alcoholic | Know Your Meme



shinynotshiny said:


> There's nothing wrong with you, I also hate when people do this. Especially when they list what they want, though.
> 
> "Anything you'd like for Christmas?"
> "Yes, this book right here, specifically this one, you see it?"
> "Yes, I see it, I don't even spend that much on myself, but okay, sure."
> "Yay."
> "(fuck you)"


Nooo, I mean I can't stand the idea of coordinating with a group of people when clear "leader/boss/commander" is present. People can figure out most everything but just talking, there's no need for looming figures. OK, it maybe is in some aspects of society bUT NOT HERE. UGH. I could've easy talked with someone to merge out efforts of buying her Monster High doll but now I don't want to deal with bossing around so no dolls for her.

As for list, I have a list now. People ask me what I want - I forget what I want and say "buy whatever you want for me" so I get either money (that I spend on food) or something useless that gets buried. So I made a list with dinosaurs, science for kids sets and comics figurines. Not exact ones with prices but you know, just to give people a general idea what I'd like to get. People seem to think I need jewelry and cosmetics. >_>


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Overconfident Alcoholic | Know Your Meme
> 
> 
> Nooo, I mean I can't stand the idea of coordinating with a group of people when clear "leader/boss/commander" is present. People can figure out most everything but just talking, there's no need for looming figures. OK, it maybe is in some aspects of society bUT NOT HERE. UGH. I could've easy talked with someone to merge out efforts of buying her Monster High doll but now I don't want to deal with bossing around so no dolls for her.
> 
> As for list, I have a list now. People ask me what I want - I forget what I want and say "buy whatever you want for me" so I get either money (that I spend on food) or something useless that gets buried. So I made a list with dinosaurs, science for kids sets and comics figurines. Not exact ones with prices but you know to give people a general idea what I'd like to get. People seem to think I need jewelry and cosmetics. >_>


I know you meant that, but I especially hate when such a thing even exists because people have demands~


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I know you meant that, but I especially hate when such a thing even exists because people have demands~


Nah, she made it for the same reason - people ask, she says "uuuuuuuuh" so they give either money or useless stuff. Money somehow always ends up in family budget instead of "buy yourself something". I never get what I want for bday so I just never asked for anything specific and thus can't even say what I want when asked.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Nah, she made it for the same reason - people ask, she says "uuuuuuuuh" so they give either money or useless stuff. Money somehow always ends up in family budget instead of "buy yourself something". I never get what I want for bday so I just never asked for anything specific and thus can't even say what I want when asked.


I just tell people what I don't want, if at all. I like seeing what people get me without any input from me. It's a good way of knowing how much they know you. If it's a matter of chipping in for someone, I don't mind if it's something special for someone I care about.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I just tell people what I don't want, if at all. I like seeing what people get me without any input from me. *It's a good way of knowing how much they know you.* If it's a matter of chipping in for someone, I don't mind if it's something special for someone I care about.


It's _always_ money or shower gel/shampoo or fashion jewelry. Or worse yet - ceramic figurines. I could build a castle just out the ones I have. And when I was a kid it was mostly clothes. I better get me some crystal growing set or dinos this year.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> It's _always_ money or shower gel/shampoo or fashion jewelry. Or worse yet - ceramic figurines. I could build a castle just out the ones I have. And when I was a kid it was mostly clothes. I better get me some crystal growing set or dinos this year.












I'm so sorry, I remember the shampoo days~

I think the worst is when you sit there thinking, "You got this for yourself, didn't you? Then you remembered oh shit it's her birthday, didn't you?"


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm so sorry, I remember the shampoo days~
> 
> I think the worst is when you sit there thinking, "You got this for yourself, didn't you? Then you remembered oh shit it's her birthday, didn't you?"


It's classic for a). female b). limited budget c). not sure what to give d). counts as "useful". I got... 4 shower gels and 1 shampoo last year.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> It's classic for a). female b). limited budget c). not sure what to give d). counts as "useful". I got... 4 shower gels and 1 shampoo last year.


Money is always better if you have no idea what to get. People are idiots eaceful:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Birthdays equal unwanted pressure.

I am demanded to purchase a gift, or to ask for a gift. Problems are abundant.

If it's my birthday:


* *




Can these people *afford* to purchase what I want? Will they purchase above and beyond their means in order to fulfill my satisfaction (which would, ironically, decrease it)? Will they enjoy a party I set up? Or will they be the type to service me and fully accompany my wishes in spite of their desires? What should I do? How should I celebrate? Who should I invite? Should I vacation? Should I take time off of work? Should I stay at home? Would those around me be fine with ceasing celebration, or would such a decision cause contention?




If it's someone else's birthday:


* *




Are they requesting what they really want? Are their requests in lieu of what they genuinely desire in order to succumb to my needs and wants? Are they considering my budget, my interests, or what is overall most desirable or convenient for me? Are they having a good time? Am I providing all that is needed for a proper birthday they can really consider special and of their own?




Fuck Birthdays. Not aging in general (minus health problems and limitations on independence), but the culturally conditioned traditions surrounding Birthdays. Can it not just be a marker of milestones? 

In all seriousness I actually don't mind birthdays lol but some people are uptight so I get all uptight and in my shell back at them to prove them wrong.


----------



## Immolate

I always try my best to let my birthday slip by without notice. I just don't care for it.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Greyhart said:


> It's _always_ money or shower gel/shampoo or fashion jewelry. Or worse yet - ceramic figurines. I could build a castle just out the ones I have. And when I was a kid it was mostly clothes. I better get me some crystal growing set or dinos this year.


My favorite gifts are those from someone who barely knows you, but due to the unwritten, cultural obligation of gift giving, the superficial association still requires a purchase, so they buy you a gift solely based on your age or gender as that's all they have to go by.


----------



## Greyhart

hoopla said:


> Birthdays equal unwanted pressure.
> 
> I am demanded to purchase a gift, or to ask for a gift. Problems are abundant.
> 
> If it's my birthday:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can these people *afford* to purchase what I want? Will they purchase above and beyond their means in order to fulfill my satisfaction (which would, ironically, decrease it)? Will they enjoy a party I set up? Or will they be the type to service me and fully accompany my wishes in spite of their desires? What should I do? How should I celebrate? Who should I invite? Should I vacation? Should I take time off of work? Should I stay at home? Would those around me be fine with ceasing celebration, or would such a decision cause contention?


I never sweat about it in terms of planning. Pizza and movies always work.



> If it's someone else's birthday:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they requesting what they really want? Are their requests in lieu of what they genuinely desire in order to succumb to my needs and wants? Are they considering my budget, my interests, or what is overall most desirable or convenient for me? Are they having a good time? Am I providing all that is needed for a proper birthday they can really consider special and of their own?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck Birthdays. Not aging in general (minus health problems and limitations on independence), but the culturally conditioned traditions surrounding Birthdays. Can it not just be a marker of milestones?
> 
> In all seriousness I actually don't mind birthdays lol but some people are uptight so I get all uptight and in my shell back at them to prove them wrong.


This is stressful, yeah. Mostly because I have to juggle "Make them happy" and "I could be using this money to buy me stuff but no". One day I'll get rich and just throw money at problems.



hoopla said:


> My favorite gifts are those from someone who barely knows you, but due to the unwritten, cultural obligation of gift giving, the superficial association still requires a purchase, so they buy you a gift solely based on your age or gender as that's all they have to go by.


I got shower gels from people that know me for 20+ years. I am literally a baby inside. I didn't change. You don't have to think that much. So this time I'm gon be prepared.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart Until your guests reveal a disdain for the particular movie and pizza selected. 

You can't please everyone so I prefer to sit in a corner or discover likeminded individuals. Mostly the former.

Shower Gels are cheap and universal. Gender, age and interests are absolutely irrelevant. Exactly why I dislike providing them as gifts, but even I am prone to human tendencies. ):

That meme reminded me of David Firth, at least aesthetically.

Humor wise, no.

Best meme ever as it illustrates why I dislike meme culture. The worst is mainstream television providing a homage to a meme. Yay for originality!


----------



## 68097

I am superb at selecting gifts for people I know.

After a few tragic misfires at gift selection for those I don't, I have resorted to gift cards. Although I rather suspect, if you can find out a bit more about a person, it's not hard to find them a reasonably perfect gift even upon short acquaintance. I think I only resorted to shower gel once. Now, I give that woman cook books and decorating magazines. It was not that I didn't know her before, but that I did not pay attention enough. I knew that she loved those things before, but it never crossed my mind to take as much care with gift selection for "casual" friends as "close ones."

Still, close friends are the easiest to buy for. It's almost effortless at times. Our society provides such a wealth of "stuff" revolving around everyone's interests. Gave my BFF a book on Lucille Ball for her last birthday. She adored it.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> @_Greyhart_ Until your guests reveal a disdain for the particular movie and pizza selected.


Do you always think of what will go wrong :very_drunk:


----------



## pivot_turn

alittlebear said:


> I really sometimes am just awed that I'm an Fe-dominant, that that's what we've come to here. That would have been the furthest thing from my mind before I joined. I was about to settle as always seeing myself as INFP. But that always made me uncomfortable... and it probably was because I was always the opposite of Fi/Ne
> 
> I guess I'm just grateful that I stuck around and actually found out at least a big part of where I really fit into Jung. That's kind of amazing and I'm really, well... grateful that all of you helped me get this far, and just so happy that it happened. It means a lot more to me than I think even I consciously realize.
> 
> This is the sort of post that I should tag everyone who has helped me in but I'm hesitant to begin because so many have helped.
> 
> @ gosh what is the name of that person with the Ferris wheel avatar, the ISFP?
> 
> I'm forgetting people but I mean... That's kind of amazing, that I have listed _so many people_ and then I am _still_ missing people. You are all wonderful (all of you) and it really gives me so much joy that I have been helped so much to come to these knowings about myself, that people are so kind to help me and others reach that. I feel this is a bit self-indulgent because it is a rather Fe-pleasing thing to thank people, but I do hope that you guys feel it a little bit that you've helped me, and to understand at least a bit what great people you are.
> 
> Oswin had to remind me of your name but I have actually been thinking of you lately (not in a creepy way I don't think?)... even though we haven't spoken in a while I very much appreciated your help as well
> [i am having way too much joy adding people I need to stop... but I also need to cover everybody?? Gah?]


About 100 pages later... Haha! I found it kind of fun and cute being called that ISFP person with the ferris wheel avatar.  Anyway your sweet thanking everybody, and your welcome for whatever way I might have helped. 

No we haven't talked for a while. I have barely been around at all for a couple of weeks now. Just been busy and enjoying summer and such.  So basically just stopping by to say hi and comment on that previous post as I'm completely out of the loop with what the current conversation in the thread is. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

angelcat said:


> Maybe you're not Si. Or maybe you're just normal, and people don't talk about this.
> 
> I feel the same as you, most of the time. I'm just not a caretaker personality. Not at all. I'd rather be off discussing intensive topics like whether or not curses are self-propagating; if we inherit or invent them ourselves. When my brother was so sick he almost died, I rather awkwardly hung out with him a bit, cleaned his kitchen when my mother intimated I should, but I did not wait on him hand and foot. I mostly just insisted that we ought to DO SOMETHING like call the doctor.
> 
> This idea that SFJs are loving and kind and mothering and good at taking care of people -- that may be true for some, but not all, because in me, it's a myth. It's more true of my ISFJ friend, but she really IS a healthy 2. All she wants to do is give love, and be loved in return. And ... honestly, love never crosses my mind. As a 6, I'd rather be safe.
> 
> Do you really think you're a core 2?
> 
> ETA: I'm not saying you ARE SFJ, but I am saying you can't disqualify yourself FROM SFJ because you don't feel like you love and serve people enough. That's stereotyping.


I'm pretty sure I'm core 2. I'm open to that being challenged but I'm pretty sure it's so. I thought 1 for a while (but 1 is even further than I actually behave than 2) but reading the Sandra Maitris passage on 2s really 'clicked' for me (beyond the other type descriptions which made me think 'yeah I guess I kind-of have that'. I think I'm a little more...self-aware? than a lot of 2s (or at least than this one annoying woman I know who is definitely one) or I might have some other influence or unhealthiness that makes me not quite so . . . helpful. I relate to everything about the type but I think I don't have the ... Catholic volunteer vibe going on (not that I have anything against Catholics or volunteers, I am both, but many many Catholic volunteers have this particular annoying 2ish thing going on).

Part of it is probably that I feel like a lot of the time being helpful is really just being a nuisance. From my side. Like...I like to cook, but I don't do it much anymore, because every time I do my father feels the need to come into the kitchen and either try to help or be asking me..."Are you sure you want to use that pan? Is that how you want to crack that egg? Why are you doing that?" which...is the opposite of helpful, and this is maybe a good example of what I mean...Oswin's father wants to help her in the kitchen, she should embrace that and nurture the relationship...which I know is true, but in the moment my only priority is _not having to justify my pan choice._

But...I wrote that last night when I had recently confronted several layers of my selfishness, I know it was true but this morning I'm feeling like probably I am a helpful person so...I don't know anymore. I'm still thinking...one of my fatal flaws, I think, is to be so focused on looking at the 'stars' that I end up just completely disregarding the fireflies in my path...but the stars are just far-off fireflies, so it's really defeatist.

Like...this song, I know it's not what it's about, but I've been obsessed with this song as a scene where God -- in the guise of a homeless man -- confronts the narrator of the story, asking him 'where were you' as the homeless man, why didn't you pay attention to me when I was in need, when I was hungry, etc., why are you only paying attention to me now that I'm God? And I've been obsessed with it because, well, I'm _not_ there for the poor, the homeless, the hungry, not even for the people in my life who need my help: I'm always looking up, focused on _me_, "How am I going to succeed", I feel deprived or something because I don't envision myself owning a nice home in the near future at least, when there are people not far away from me thinking "How am I going to survive?" and they don't have a roof over their head _now._





Ok, this stopped being really relevant for type a while ago, I'm just...unsure, but obviously I can't find a good way to phrase my uncertainty)


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> I think either way they're probably pretty close in strength...I doubt she was either a Ti or Fe inferior. Her social observation and level of detachment is too high either way imo...but I haven't read her letters or anything of the sort)
> 
> This Jane Bennett thing has me through a bit of a loop though because...I'm not that expressive? I mean, I seem to remember being explicitly told by someone (my mother maybe) that I would have to be careful because I was like Jane...and it's really true, I think in that same situation it would have been the identical result. The reason I was thinking ESTJ for Mrs Bennett was because she doesn't seem to express actual emotions, it seems to all be something she made up in her head...but I agree, it's unlikely. But, I mean, maybe it's the same for me? With things that are important to me, it's usually more a matter of 'I'd rather die than explain how I really feel', I sometimes come off as heartless because I don't want to express grief or something, it's just...embarrassing to me. I honestly never understand how couples _ever_ come together because I honestly can't imagine, like, expressing feelings for someone. I would feel really ashamed, it would feel like relinquishing power.
> 
> I still think I'm Fe, probably, but I'm feeling unsure about the functions because I never really considered it from this angle.


Well you can have similar external behavior as Jane and have it be for different reasons (I sensed a bit of projection going on :bwink I think you offered some good reasons to explain it, I just don't think they fit Jane, they aren't in the text anywhere. And I think it is perfectly normal to relate to characters that are a different type from you, so no need to doubt Fe because of this. :smile:



angelcat said:


> Jane Austen's books are all about mocking society and the people in it. Her letters show a profound disinterest in thinking about anyone's feelings other than her own, and she actually gets on her sister's case for Fe-stuff. She was a IXTJ type, probably INTJ.
> 
> The Bennets: Mrs. Bennet is a Fe-dom. Interfere with everyone, complain about her nerves constantly -- Jane was mocking Fe-doms. Her husband is INTP. Lizzie is ENFJ. Jane ... She's Si and Fi, so if she's INFP there's no real Ne, but she's not an ISTJ like Mary. Mr. Bingley ... yeah, ESFJ sounds right. EVERYTHING IS POSITIVELY CHARMING. More Fe-mocking.
> 
> Emma Woodhouse -- another ENFJ. No Ne there, not really. Specific vision for what she wants, ignores everything that doesn't fit, has zero ability to read external connections beyond what she wants from them... again, Jane is mocking Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> I assume this is about the first episode? Yeah, Doyle is totally knee-jerk in that one. He calms down and becomes an introvert in the rest of the series, though (ISFJ instead of ESFJ, lol).


I can see the INTJ. I guess I got stuck in thinking she used Ti because of the wit, but no reason Te-users can't be witty too!

Yeah I don't see Jane as an INFP because of Ne. Other than the "seeing best in others" thing, she doesn't have it in abundance. It seems to have gotten subdued somehow. But she seems an Fi-dom to me and she also uses Si so....INFP.

ENFJ does seem to suit Emma better.

On the one hand I wanted to tell Doyle to chill but his reactivity was also kind of endearing.




hoopla said:


> @fair phantom
> 
> Sometimes I actually do things outside of the everyday mundane activities that structure my life. Who knew.
> 
> I also occasionally need to clear my head.
> 
> Though I would like to make a quick announcement:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PSA*: Please quit calling me Hoops.
> 
> I feel weird whilst receiving nicknames, but rarely stand up against them. I'm too poised and composed in such situations. "Oh call me whatever". Boiling with translucent rage hidden by the saucepan cover. <3
> 
> I mostly kid of course but I only like pet names with those I've established strong relationships with. Aside from a middle school clique nick naming me "Spider Pig" when The Simpsons Movie was all the rage. That was awesome. Even if it still made me... uncomfortable somehow.
> 
> *In conclusion:* Nick Names are cool and are like badges of honor in their own right, but my brain cannot wrap it's head around them.
> 
> I'm too formal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings and salutations to you all after the brief yet turbulent departure.


How dare you have a life! layful:

Sorry, I just get worried when people disappear for awhile without announcement. Also I had some insomnia which can make one day seem like many. Either way, glad to have you back!

No nicknames, noted. I understand. When I was in gradeschool, I had by far the most nicknames in my class. My name seemed to inspire Ne in everyone, it became like a game to find new nicknames for me. I loved some of them, but others I was like...NO. but it couldn't be stopped. Now I only have 2 main nicknames. The one is just "M" and I like that best. The other is a typical one, and it is the one used by my family so I know it can't be escaped, even though it doesn't feel like me. There are a few others, but those are from individual people, and so I don't like others to use them. They are too tied to certain relationships.

---

I always want to give people special gifts, gifts that are very _them _that will make them happy. If I don't know someone well enough to do this, I usually just get them giftcards, because I hate giving someone something they don't care for.


----------



## Immolate

@angelcat @fair phantom


I've seen Jane Austen typed as INTJ. The only comment I have is that my brother had to read Pride and Prejudice one year for summer reading, and he *never *read the books, so that year I told him_ let me read it I will do the project for you I need a new book hand it over_ and I was surprised to find I enjoyed the book 

I got the sense of mockery/criticism but I don't have opinions on functions.


----------



## orbit

Oh the cupcake baking grandma did indeed not use her nefarious knives. 

Hoopla lives.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Well you can have similar external behavior as Jane and have it be for different reasons (I sensed a bit of projection going on :bwink I think you offered some good reasons to explain it, I just don't think they fit Jane, they aren't in the text anywhere. And I think it is perfectly normal to relate to characters that are a different type from you, so no need to doubt Fe because of this. :smile:


I don't even relate to Jane that much, it's more of an ideal 'I wish I was her' thing (vs Emma who is me warts and all :/) but I think I must have been projecting, unconsciously (if this was me why would I be doing this). MBTI has really opened my eyes to how often I do this, it's kind-of terrifying to think about how many little assumptions I've made that are not necessarily close to reality...like Jane Bennett, apparently)

And like...oh, reviewing things I've written..._everyone is Fe_. I got all terrified that I was just writing Mary Sues..I don't think I was, though, I think I just was assuming that everyone used Fe (before I knew what Fe was). Enneagram, too, a little, I think, though maybe to a lesser extent.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Oh the cupcake baking grandma did indeed not use her nefarious knives.
> 
> Hoopla lives.


I repeat, I am no grandma.

But I may have knives.


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> Third-ing the Te-Fi. I'm a bit nervous having replied in the other thread but I'm just... I don't know... I always put down the communication troubles here to a Te-Fi/Fe-Ti difference. I feel like I have no problem reading shiny in the right tone of voice. I can't nitpick to the proper standard but I feel like if Laurie and I are seeing the same thing (and I believe we are - not in a type sense, just in general) that there's got to be something to that?
> 
> Ugh. I frustrate myself. I feel IxTJ but I don't know how to justify it, so I can't ask people to take it seriously.
> 
> 
> I feel like they got the basic grammar over with as quickly as possible in my primary school, and then moved on to "critical thinking" for high school, but of course the kind of critical thinking where there's still a right intepretation and a wrong interpretation, and looking at the Facebook profiles of people from my home town, I don't think it really made much difference in how people consume media. Sigh.
> 
> I think it's more a values thing, English speakers not learning a second language. When I talk with my European classmates, they all either grew up in bilingual homes or travelled early and so understood the importance of being able to communicate with people who don't speak your mother tongue. (Plus there's the whole popular-culture-all-in-English thing. Much easier to learn a language when you're surrounded by it 24/7.) In my home town the few immigrants we had had all been speaking English for years, even if it was heavily accented. There was no need for us to learn to accommodate them. In fact there's still an assumption that if people don't speak English, there's something wrong with them.
> 
> My grandmother was a teacher and she used to have parents complaining about her teaching a second language all the time. They thought it was a waste of classroom time and resources. No one ever thinks they'll need it. Maybe they'll travel to Bali or Thailand for a holiday but of course anyone who matters already speaks English, sooooo....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't mind me. Slightly tipsy and went on a rant.
> 
> 
> So true! Especially in the economy we're in now. Even native residents here are saying they're having trouble finding work... I know I did last time I was living in my home country.
> 
> Generally if I choose to do something, it's because I see some kind of use for it in my life. Even if that use is merely "interest"....
> 
> 
> Oh I've had those too! I always feel bad for them, because I think they must be such sweet people, but they're really not in the right profession and I can't force myself to maintain interest in their subject. But in my case they were just boring, not necessarily closed-minded.
> 
> My university experience was pretty good as far as open-mindedness went, if I recall correctly (it was quite a while ago). Then again I majored in languages and comparative cultural studies so I guess that goes with the territory.
> 
> 
> Okay, thank you for explaining that to me, because I've heard a lot of those terms thrown around but I've always been a bit fuzzy on how they went together.
> 
> For me, I could apply to any university I wanted provided I studied English at a senior level. Other degrees had other prerequisites (e.g. engineering might want 2 sciences plus some kind of advanced mathematics), but I knew I wanted to study languages so I had more freedom when it came to choosing my subjects. The entrance scores were based on standardised testing but also took into account individual grades, plus where you ranked within your class/school/the state... I don't fully understand how it works to be honest - it was pretty messed up, and teachers agreed that I got a bit of a raw deal out of it. My score was enough to get me into the degree I wanted, though, so it didn't matter too much in the long run.
> 
> I guess my BA wouldn't matter much if I got a Masters in that area afterwards. So the same thing as in the UK.
> 
> 
> I think I took the Tube once or twice in London and just walked everywhere else (and maybe a taxi to/from the airport)? So no real opinions on how the English public transport system works. Here most people agree it's pretty good, but I've heard from a few people that the Swiss is better. I don't see myself going to Switzerland any time soon so I guess I'll have to wallow in my ignorance for the time being.
> 
> I don't blame you for not wanting to learn how to drive. I wasn't keen at the start either (one reason why it took me so long to get my licence). I do quite enjoy driving on the highway now, especially when there's not a lot of traffic. I'm still not a fan of driving in the cities, because there's so much to focus on and it's too overwhelming, especially when I'm not familiar with the roads. But I'm glad I can do it, at least. There have been a couple of times where I've needed to take the wheel so while it probably wouldn't've killed us if I didn't drive, it did help keep things a bit more comfortable for us.
> 
> I'd say do it when you're ready, provided it isn't anxiety getting in the way.
> 
> 
> Oh, I had a Russian tourist in at work the other day who was using a similar kind of app on his tablet. It seemed really useful!
> 
> 
> I really hope so. I don't understand the need for drama when there's work to be done either. Surely it's in everyone's best interests to keep the working environment as smooth and pleasant as possible? At least I always concentrate better in that kind of atmosphere, and it's easier to ask for help when I know there's going to be no negative repercussions, which means I'm doing my job better? Like, why wouldn't you want that?
> 
> 
> I was a terrible person as a teenager and I'm still scared of other teenagers. LOL.
> 
> 
> For me that actually came in my 20's. Being forced to look outward, I mean. I observed plenty as a kid but I was so shy and didn't really have the confidence to put myself out there. As a teenager I was in denial about being depressed and I hadn't even heard of social anxiety. It wasn't until early adulthood that I could accept that a lot of my problems came from mental illness, that I wasn't being a drama queen for thinking about it in those terms, and actually did something about it.
> 
> Of course moving to an introverted culture also helps me to think of myself as more outgoing than I really am. I'm just uncovering a new pattern in my life: if there is a problem, keep moving until it's solved!
> 
> 
> Sorry. I'm cute enough to make up for it though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know the one you mean! Mine's grey but sometimes I think it comes in blue packaging. Or maybe some people see it as blue and others see it as grey. Kind of like how my sister and I argue about how a certain dark teal colour is blue or green (it's definitely green and I will fight anyone who says otherwise).
> 
> But yeah, my hypothesis was that my tolerance has gone down because I rarely take it anymore. I'm pretty sure the last time I needed it was a year and a half ago. But I'm still used to the whole childhood I-pretty-much-need-to-OD-on-this-shit-for-it-to-even-work thing, so I go a bit overboard.
> 
> 
> I'm quite critical under stress, or if someone seems too much "below" me (intelligence, morals, efficiency, whatever... as far as intelligence and efficiency go, I figure I'm no one special, so if they're even less so than me, it must be pretty bad and therefore it's justified. my goodness I'm exposing way too much of my judgemental side here). But most of the time I'm far too lenient with other people. I'd much rather ascribe good intentions to them and find excuses for their behaviour. Most of the time I actually believe it, too. But for me? Well I can control myself, so the rules are different for me.
> 
> 
> Hahahahaha this is literally how I feel about so many other posters. HOW CAN I WORDS
> 
> 
> Can't argue with you there.
> 
> 
> Oh good, you related to it! I answered it properly! Hurrah!
> 
> I know what you mean about Ne being roundabout. I still favour that approach now, just because it's softer, but of course only a few people really appreciate it and often it's either read as being scatter-brained or underconfident. I appreciate good old Te bluntless in others and I think Thinking type in general appreciate it in me, but unless a Feeler already understands where I'm coming from, they tend to feel hurt when I use it.
> 
> I'm glad you're able to speak your mind now. I'm still learning. I think it will be a slow process for me but I'm optimistic.
> 
> 
> I feel like one of _those_ posters, because I've typed my mother as an ESFJ 2w3, but there's not really much I can do when she's pretty much a caricature of her type/s.
> 
> My boyfriend's mother tested as INTJ and didn't seem to have much of a problem with it. In fact I think her reaction to it was the same as my reaction to learning my type: "oh, so _that's_ what's wrong with me!" If she's not INTJ, she's some other type that enjoys arguing for fun, and who favours constructive criticism as a way of showing support. My boyfriend has trouble seeing her as an introvert but I think he's stuck on the modern social definitions as opposed to the Jungian understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh don't put too much stock into the Enneagram/MBTI correlations. Often there's an overlap (sorry for being a bit of a stereotype myself) but it's not obligatory and it's not always cause to suspect you've gotten something wrong. I believe there are other ISFP 7's around here, and I'm pretty sure Telepathic Goose ended up settling on 3 and INFP? If the cognitive processes match ISFP and the motivations match 3 or 7, then obviously that's what you are.


 Well, I think the main thing is that Te-Fi (in that order) prefers to rely on judging correctness via external criteria (including people's opinions if they appear to know the topic), then will also have a sort of attraction/repulsion going on towards things – but the attraction/repulsion usually needs justification before it can be used as a method of judgement, or it clashes with Te.


True, critical thinking seemed much more popular. I only got introduced to grammatical terms through learning Japanese and taking a foreign language teaching class (which made me never want to teach because of the preparation time). I would have quite liked to learn some more grammar, at least it would have been more interesting that being stuck with a textbook on poetry.


I really dislike that culture... Of course most people need English if they want to travel and lucky people in English-speaking countries get to learn that as their native tongue, but for proper communication (i.e. being able to adequately express yourself) I think you probably need a wider knowledge of language. If schools didn't just teach three languages, but a wide range instead, languages would be a lot more popular (I never wanted to learn French, Spanish or German when I was young – I wanted to learn Japanese. Now I'm older, I'd quite like to learn them, though...). Mandarin would be a useful one to teach.


The only good thing my Year 3 teacher did was try to teach us all Spanish in class, so we'd answer the register in Spanish and say hello, goodbye etc. Sadly I remember exactly 0% of that now.


That is true, I do need to see some kind of use to what I'm doing – but it can just be a personal thing, like I want to be able to do X. It doesn't relate to work very often, although I don't want to be stuck with no employable skills (hence work experience in my final year).


Haha, there was a teacher I narrowly avoided in college who was teaching Psychology and everyone said she was so nice but they learnt nothing. I was lucky because I was with a lovely teacher who could teach.


I was majoring in Japanese language and culture (so basically Anthropology) but this lecturer was just... I think he really enjoyed his own ideas, but not anyone else's.


Wow, that sounds confusing... What kind of standardised testing? I know that in college you have to take certain subjects if you want to do certain degrees i.e. for a BSc in Biology, you need to take a Biology A-Level and get at least a C (most universities want a B or higher, though). Most A-Levels had exams, but you could also take a BTEC, which is a practical course (and can also get you into university). I almost took Horticulture, but as I couldn't combine it with English Literature, I didn't.


London's transport system is probably the best in the South (the North has much better transport – they get trams!), but in my city the buses are always late, there's no tube, trains are overcrowded and late etc. Which country are you from, by the way?


Yes, it's the overwhelmingness of driving in a city that puts me off. My city is particularly bad for aggressive drivers, which makes me want to do it even less. I haven't learned to ride a bike (since I fell off and broke my leg when I was 8) because the drivers have hit quite a few cyclists over the years (they go up right behind them and try to scare them onto the pavement). It's really frustrating.


I do find that I don't want to ask questions if the other people are quite aggressive. I was told off by my manager for not asking enough questions and couldn't tell him that him being angry all the time made me not want to.


Teenagers are kind of scary sometimes, mostly just because they shout a lot. I don't like loud noises. (I don't think I was a teenager – I never had a 'phase', like my sister having a sort of goth-ish phase).


That's true. I didn't realise I had severe social anxiety and agoraphobia until I was recovering from it. I wasn't referring necessarily to being outgoing or anything, but rather having to monitor my external environment in order to manage the negative things going on (i.e. dealing with mental illness in my family). They really do need to put more information about mental illnesses out there so people can work out if they are 'just shy' or if it's something chemically there.


Haha, of course! (That octopus emoticon is the best, by the way.)


It's very strange, how people see different colours. My mum kept telling me a jumper I wore was pink, when I was sure it was magenta-leaning-purple. Or a towel looking faintly green to me, but she said it was grey. My eyes are a bit rubbish though (too much reading in the dark).


I think it's like any other thing you build a tolerance for – like people who drink a lot of alcohol don't get drunk quickly (this rule does not apply to my sister who doesn't get drunk and hardly drinks).


No, don't worry, everyone's judgemental in their heads, really. I do find that I'll say something and whoever I'm talking to will comment on how cynical I am about things. I don't feel cynical though, it's just how reality is for me. (I think the last time it was 'No one will pay attention to you because no one cares', referring to how you don't need to feel self-conscious most of the time because people are very ego-centric and more interested in their own lives than that of a stranger. Maybe it's just my phrasing...)


I do prefer using Ne. It 'feels' better (I guess aux function?) than Te – Te feels too direct and compressed, like I'm just doing or saying something to get something done, rather than because I feel that way (minor concern of being misunderstood also). I guess it just doesn't feel like 'me'.


Well, even though I speak my mind more, I still don't speak it much (I feel a bit lost in my friend group, because I want to say something, then think of the impact it might have, as some of my friends have GAD or depression, then the moment's gone anyway). When I was young I never told anyone anything that was going on in my head though, so it's progress.


I think older people generally can be difficult to type, because their functions will have developed usually. My mum, for example, doesn't come across as reckless as ESFPs are often described – because she's had her whole youth to go for experiences and learn about herself, then she had kids to think about. Responsibility changes people.


Ah yes, good old social extroversion vs objective dominant function issues...


@Curiphant I agree. Just ignore Enneagram correlations, because 5 doesn't work with INFP at all, apparently. It just gives a slightly different tint to the type (also I'm pleased you said I wasn't like Gil. I don't like him much... and was mildly offended by the friend who said I was like him.)



alittlebear said:


> Oh and @_laurie17_ I thought you mentioned it first! Gah. I know @_shinynotshiny_ did, but... maybe it was @_fair phantom_ also? Maybe I can find a way to go back and look.
> 
> I need to reply to The Secret History thread again, but I think I'm still recovering from it. It's funny because I was connecting a certain song about love to all the stories I could think of... because love is everywhere, right? It's so fun to do that, connect songs to stories and illuminate the love in them through them.
> 
> Tried it with TSH and, lol. That didn't work out very well. It's about a world outside of love. Beautiful, in its way.
> 
> I'm not sure if Henry is ENTJ or INTJ because I think there's a good case for inferior Fi (not dip) and inferior Se?
> 
> But I actually think the case for inferior Se is stronger. He said all his life he desired to let go and just not think, just do as he pleased. And... obviously that was his downfall, in more ways than one. His ethics are terrible, but I think his desire to live purely and like a Greek figure of old with their morality makes me think Fi... Crappy Fi with crappy crappy crappy values, but Fi and strong Fi influence nonetheless?
> 
> And I mean, obviously he's introverted (classically) and I think that his world was Ni, trying to figure out the bigger picture.
> 
> I mean, that's my world as an ENFJ, but with him that seems like... his entire universe.



No, I can see what you mean. I was always on the fence about Henry, because he's such a strange character. He has very strong Te, but maybe that's just a result of his way of seeing that things just 'will' turn out in a certain way, which almost gives the impression he's judging it externally (because he's so sure). The ending made me think possibly either Fi or Se. 
* *




Not being able to live with himself because of how everything turned out, or just wanting to do something without loads of preplanning – a sort of impulsive exit.


 He does seem to view himself as a Greek figure though, which comes across as a sort of deluded Fi self-image, which could also explain the end.


Oh no, a Pride and Prejudice discussion! I haven't read any Jane Austen... (and I took English lit!)


Also, I'm very proud because I convinced my mum to buy an apricot-coloured flowering plant for her window box and she kept saying 'No, it's horrible' then eventually got it, brought it back and planted it. Now she thinks it's great.


@Greyhart all but one of my friends forgot my birthday this year, so you be grateful for your useless shampoo! (I know the feeling, though. My sister and I were known to like art when we were little, so every year we'd get coloured pencils, pencils, crayons, pastels etc. until we asked not to have them any more because we had several drawers full of unused gifts...)


Apparently, I'm good at choosing gifts, even though I do it quickly and relatively painlessly. (And I always remember my friends' birthdays! :subdued I always just do a film and make cake or something. I don't like parties (I don't even like celebrating my birthday really, although that makes me no less miffed my friends forgot).


----------



## Dangerose

On nicknames: I'm ok with them, usually my name doesn't get very ugly nicknames which is nice. Though my name is 
* *




Adele


 and a couple of years ago my brother started calling me 
* *




Adelio


 and then, after some protestation, changed it to 
* *




Adelio, _as you call yourself_


 (in a scornful voice of course).

(I'm considering ENTJ because he really does have long-term commitment to a gag)

In the past few years we decided, that we would create a scenario for my mother where we gave her lots of mini tea-sets and then keep buying her mini tea-sets because obviously she likes them because she has so many! Every Christmas, birthday, Mother's Day, one of us gives her a mini tea-set. I'm so proud of us for playing it cool and keeping this up without giving the game away.


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Teaching is love. Teaching is life.
> 
> Keep in mind I am saying this _before_ my first paid day with a child.


Glad you have a passion for it. Do you get the same wage as @fair phantom was complaining about? Lower than minimum wage, I believe it was? :wink:


----------



## owlet

On the subject of nicknames, my name is the same as my username (bar the 17, unless I'm in cyborg form) so I can't actually have a nickname (I really wanted one when I was younger but it doesn't work).

But! My sister decided to nickname my first year flatmate in university Hansel (his name was James, but she thought it was a funny reference to Great Expectations, you know where Pip's friend calls him Hansel for no reason) and my classmate Kasey (instead of his real name, Jason, because he looked a bit like a scrawny version of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles character). Neither minded.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I repeat, I am no grandma.
> 
> But I may have knives.


There's no shame in accepting your age. It's apart of you

For some reason, knives made me think of shurikens which made me think of wands and Oswin talking about everyone being Fe makes me think of how everyone is Fi-Te in Harry Potter?

What is JK Rowling's type? Ne-Si duh but 
Is there anyone who uses Fe-Ti and isn't a Maurader or Lily?

@Oswin, you have a beautiful name! Adele is so pretty. I like ds and ls in people's names n.n and cs and as and bs. 
My name starts with C so.
@laurie17, yeah Gil is too... 
He doesn't question things and he's a bit naive. Not like you. You're more self-aware and challenging than that.


----------



## Dangerose

Oswin said:


> On nicknames: I'm ok with them, usually my name doesn't get very ugly nicknames which is nice. Though my name is
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adele
> 
> 
> and a couple of years ago my brother started calling me
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adelio
> 
> 
> and then, after some protestation, changed it to
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adelio, _as you call yourself_
> 
> 
> (in a scornful voice of course).
> 
> (I'm considering ENTJ because he really does have long-term commitment to a gag)
> 
> In the past few years we decided, that we would create a scenario for my mother where we gave her lots of mini tea-sets and then keep buying her mini tea-sets because obviously she likes them because she has so many! Every Christmas, birthday, Mother's Day, one of us gives her a mini tea-set. I'm so proud of us for playing it cool and keeping this up without giving the game away.


sorry, my brother

edit: sorry, I replied instead of editing, that whole first sentence was a mess and things just got more and more confusing
But now they're not


----------



## fair phantom

Oswin said:


> On nicknames: I'm ok with them, usually my name doesn't get very ugly nicknames which is nice. Though my name is
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adele
> 
> 
> and a couple of years ago he started calling me
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adelio
> 
> 
> and then, after some protestation, changed it to
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adelio, _as you call yourself_
> 
> 
> (in a scornful voice of course).
> 
> (I'm considering ENTJ because he really does have long-term commitment to a gag)
> 
> In the past few years we decided, that we would create a scenario for my mother where we gave her lots of mini tea-sets and then keep buying her mini tea-sets because obviously she likes them because she has so many! Every Christmas, birthday, Mother's Day, one of us gives her a mini tea-set. I'm so proud of us for playing it cool and keeping this up without giving the game away.


Pretty name! It suits you)

BTW, my name is 
* *




Maureen


 In case you didn't pick up on it earlier


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> What is JK Rowling's type? Ne-Si duh but
> Is there anyone who uses Fe-Ti and isn't a Maurader or Lily?


Rowling uses too much unconscious Si to be lower on her function order. As for people who use Fe-Ti in that series... That is a very good question. :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> There's no shame in accepting your age. It's apart of you
> 
> For some reason, knives made me think of shurikens which made me think of wands and Oswin talking about everyone being Fe makes me think of how everyone is Fi-Te in Harry Potter?
> 
> What is JK Rowling's type? Ne-Si duh but
> Is there anyone who uses Fe-Ti and isn't a Maurader or Lily?


I think Rowling is an ISFJ, but many think INFP and ISTJ is a possibility

Mrs. Weasley - ESFJ
Mr. Weasley - INTP
The Twins - ENTP
Luna - INTP
Neville - ISFJ
Petunia Dursley - ESFJ
Lavender Brown - ESFJ?

Prof Flitwick and Sprout? Slughorn?


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> There's no shame in accepting your age. It's apart of you
> 
> For some reason, knives made me think of shurikens which made me think of wands and Oswin talking about everyone being Fe makes me think of how everyone is Fi-Te in Harry Potter?
> 
> What is JK Rowling's type? Ne-Si duh but
> Is there anyone who uses Fe-Ti and isn't a Maurader or Lily?
> 
> @Oswin, you have a beautiful name! Adele is so pretty. I like ds and ls in people's names n.n and cs and as and bs.
> My name starts with C so.
> @laurie17, yeah Gil is too...
> He doesn't question things and he's a bit naive. Not like you. You're more self-aware and challenging than that.


Oh...that's kind-of true, isn't it? Maybe she is...INFP? Or maybe...hm, I don't know)
I often wonder about fiction writers...like, naturally, they're going to have characters of different types, but I'm not sure if it'll be complete depending on the writer. Like, can we assume that if it's a Fe writer even the Fi is going to be kind-of Fe-ish, like a character might well be an INFP but if not taken through the lens of the story they might have a distinct Fe tinge?
I feel like unless writers are consciously thinking about the MBTI and even if so, there's likely to be quite a lot of leakage.

edit: thank you!) I like C names) Most of them) I think)
edit ii: thank you @fair phantom ) Your name is pretty) Both of our names are iambic)


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> My name starts with C so.
> @_laurie17_, yeah Gil is too...
> He doesn't question things and he's a bit naive. Not like you. You're more self-aware and challenging than that.


(Is your name Charlotte? You seem Charlotte-y to me.) Everyone has such nice names... it's like my graduation all over again.

:teapot: I'm glad you think so, Curiphant!

On the topic of writers and their characters, I think it depends very much on the writer. I.e. Brian Jacques was pretty much ESFP for sure, but his characters vary between a range of types (two major ones I can think of are Martin the Warrior, who is ISTJ, and Matthias, ISFJ).
In my experience, all my protagonists end up as xSFPs without me consciously thinking about it (Se is just a good function for protagonists).


----------



## Immolate

My name has an L in it.

I've asked about writers before with no success 

Actually, @alittlebear, what was your overall impression of Parable of the Sower and Butler's way of presenting the story and its themes?


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> (Is your name Charlotte? You seem Charlotte-y to me.) Everyone has such nice names... it's like my graduation all over again.
> 
> :teapot: I'm glad you think so, Curiphant!
> 
> On the topic of writers and their characters, I think it depends very much on the writer. I.e. Brian Jacques was pretty much ESFP for sure, but his characters vary between a range of types (two major ones I can think of are Martin the Warrior, who is ISTJ, and Matthias, ISFJ).
> In my experience, all my protagonists end up as xSFPs without me consciously thinking about it (Se is just a good function for protagonists).


Catherine the Great. C: Go by Cathy by most people whoops. I don't think it fits me particularly great but then again I'm not attatched to names in general. I like how there are different forms of it though through all different cultures like Ekaterina and Catalina. 
@fair phantom, I forgot about the Weasleys D8 Nice list though. Impressive you knew that straight out. 

I dislike Mrs. Weasley a bit after she yelled at Sirius for being in Azkaban but other than that she's chill.
@shinynotshiny, Lisa? Lily? Lavender? Lillian? Lydia? I feel like you have a "Lee" sound in there somewhere.


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Catherine the Great. C: Go by Cathy by most people whoops. I don't think it fits me particularly great but then again I'm not attatched to names in general. I like how there are different forms of it though through all different cultures like Ekaterina and Catalina.


Catherine is an awesome name! It's my mum's name for a start :ghost3: Plus, as you said, Catherine the Great.


----------



## fair phantom

@laurie17 I love the name Laurie! @Curiphant and Catherine! Everyone has such lovely names.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> @_shinynotshiny_, Lisa? Lily? Lavender? Lillian? Lydia? I feel like you have a "Lee" sound in there somewhere.


None listed 

"Lee" because it rhymes with shiny?


----------



## Barakiel

My name starts with Z. You can probably guess it from that. Although I do prefer my middle name, Tyler. :wink:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I think I just figured out Si. With the help of others. (I also figured out Ti and Te on the drive home, if anyone wants to hear it. lol)

This is how an ISTJ or ESTJ both can appear to have more feeling than an INFJ, or even ENFJ. Because Si is creating atmosphere. Ni has no clue how to do that, and is much colder and remote because of that. Somebody mentioned Si can look liked extroverted judging.

I'll just repost what I said in the thread:

 No matter what type I am, I have no Si. Because Si, is "creating atmosphere". That is Si to me from now on. It is a creative process. 

I have known this ISTJ woman forever. She has always been kind of a black sheep. Nothing bad, but she is untraditional. Which made me think she was an ISTP. And also because she seems obviously a thinker and not a feeler. She is like a hippy party girl, and her older ESFJ sister is prom queen. This ISTJ woman is actually extremely meek and seems to have no feeling. lol. Anyway. She is actually good at creating atmosphere though. It just isn't the vulgar display of power that an ESFJ has. Or an ISFJ either.

ISTJ guys are similar. Like if I had a daughter, and she brought home a date to meet the family, I don't know what to say to this fuckin guy. An ISTJ would. An ESTJ would. They appear warmer too. I cannot create atmosphere whatsoever, anywhere.

That is why it is an absurdity that Hitler is a Ni dom, or even on the Se-Ni axis. I just put a nail in that coffin. Hitler is all atmosphere. Nobody was better.


----------



## Immolate

Barakiel said:


> My name starts with Z. You can probably guess it from that. Although I do prefer my middle name, Tyler. :wink:


... Zachary or some variation?


----------



## Bugs

Barakiel said:


> My name starts with Z. You can probably guess it from that. Although I do prefer my middle name, Tyler. :wink:


I'm just gonna call you Winky.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think I just figured out Si. With the help of others. (I also figured out Ti and Te on the drive home, if anyone wants to hear it. lol)
> 
> This is how an ISTJ or ESTJ both can appear to have more feeling than an INFJ, or even ENFJ. Because Si is creating atmosphere. Ni has no clue how to do that, and is much colder and remote because of that. Somebody mentioned Si can look liked extroverted judging.
> 
> I'll just repost what I said in the thread:
> 
> No matter what type I am, I have no Si. Because Si, is "creating atmosphere". That is Si to me from now on. It is a creative process.
> 
> I have known this ISTJ woman forever. She has always been kind of a black sheep. Nothing bad, but she is untraditional. Which made me think she was an ISTP. And also because she seems obviously a thinker and not a feeler. She is like a hippy party girl, and her older ESFJ sister is prom queen. This ISTJ woman is actually extremely meek and seems to have no feeling. lol. Anyway. She is actually good at creating atmosphere though. It just isn't the vulgar display of power that an ESFJ has. Or an ISFJ either.
> 
> ISTJ guys are similar. Like if I had a daughter, and she brought home a date to meet the family, I don't know what to say to this fuckin guy. An ISTJ would. An ESTJ would. They appear warmer too. I cannot create atmosphere whatsoever, anywhere.
> 
> That is why it is an absurdity that Hitler is a Ni dom, or even on the Se-Ni axis. I just put a nail in that coffin. Hitler is all atmosphere. Nobody was better.


So, by creating atmosphere, you mean they can better handle social interactions and create a welcoming environment for others? Or on the other end, they can better create an atmosphere meant to keep others at bay?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> ... Zachary or some variation?


----------



## Barakiel

Bugs said:


> I'm just gonna call you Winky.


Oh lovely, my first nickname and it's already an atrocious one. :laughing:


----------



## orbit

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think I just figured out Si. With the help of others. (I also figured out Ti and Te on the drive home, if anyone wants to hear it. lol)
> 
> This is how an ISTJ or ESTJ both can appear to have more feeling than an INFJ, or even ENFJ. Because Si is creating atmosphere. Ni has no clue how to do that, and is much colder and remote because of that. Somebody mentioned Si can look liked extroverted judging.
> 
> I'll just repost what I said in the thread:
> 
> No matter what type I am, I have no Si. Because Si, is "creating atmosphere". That is Si to me from now on. It is a creative process.
> 
> I have known this ISTJ woman forever. She has always been kind of a black sheep. Nothing bad, but she is untraditional. Which made me think she was an ISTP. And also because she seems obviously a thinker and not a feeler. She is like a hippy party girl, and her older ESFJ sister is prom queen. This ISTJ woman is actually extremely meek and seems to have no feeling. lol. Anyway. She is actually good at creating atmosphere though. It just isn't the vulgar display of power that an ESFJ has. Or an ISFJ either.
> 
> ISTJ guys are similar. Like if I had a daughter, and she brought home a date to meet the family, I don't know what to say to this fuckin guy. An ISTJ would. An ESTJ would. They appear warmer too. I cannot create atmosphere whatsoever, anywhere.
> 
> That is why it is an absurdity that Hitler is a Ni dom, or even on the Se-Ni axis. I just put a nail in that coffin. Hitler is all atmosphere. Nobody was better.


I wouldn't mind the elaboration on the Ti and Te ^^

--- @laurie17 and @fair phantom, thank you n.n


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> None listed
> 
> "Lee" because it rhymes with shiny?


Lynn, Leah, Laura (lolno?), Lucinda, Lucy, Leslie, Louise?
Probably.

Lindsay, Lena, Lori, Laurel? Leann?


----------



## Max

Guess my real name, lol. We might as well, since I'm here. 

(P.S- Who cares about post count? Not me. Almost 5k in a year unintentionally.)

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## FearAndTrembling

shinynotshiny said:


> So, by creating atmosphere, you mean they can better handle social interactions and create a welcoming environment for others? Or on the other end, they can better create an atmosphere meant to keep others at bay?


Yes, I imagine they could. But they make it look better. Ni and Si are not much different obviously. They can be welcoming, nurturing, controlling, etc. But you see the action. lol. It is tangible. Ni is like a ghost. It doesn't actually manifest in the world. It is never actually seen. Ni has no signature whatsoever. It is a blank. It is empty. So it has nothing to use, but what inferior Se can give it in the moment. .


----------



## Barakiel

Oh yeah, @PsychElGambino, thanks for the topic to discuss. Does anyone else find it difficult to make up names? I want to change my name on here, just for variety, but damn if I have any ideas on what to change it to. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> My name starts with Z. You can probably guess it from that. Although I do prefer my middle name, Tyler. :wink:


That reminds me of this youtube video I saw about relationships. This couple is arguing about what to name their child. One wanted Taylor, the other Tyler. They decide to settle on Tyson. It's supposed to be demonstrating the importance of compromise but I just exclaimed: "but that is a terrible compromise! Either name would have been better!" 

Err sorry if anyone likes the name Tyson, but I think Tyler and Taylor are better names. ^^;;


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Lynn, Leah, Laura (lolno?), Lucinda, Lucy, Leslie, Louise?
> Probably.
> 
> Lindsay, Lena, Lori, Laurel? Leann?


No~ 

You're assuming my name starts with an L. I said my name _has _an L. (I hope so, anyway. Too lazy to check)

:ghost2:


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> I was gonna guess Zachary/Zack, bec it just went with Tyler.
> 
> My brothers name ZachEry/ZaCK. I named him


Apparently it goes with that pretty well. I would never have expected Jacqueline for you, however. :laughing:


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> It's a nice name. Rings.I think I'll change my name to just plain "Curi" or "Curicide" or "Curiass" or whatever.
> 
> How do you even change your name?


'Curios' - halfway between 'curious' and 'cheerios'. (It may just look like a typo though...)


----------



## Future2Future

laurie17 said:


> 'Curios' - halfway between 'curious' and 'cheerios'. (It may just look like a typo though...)


If you combine it all, you get Cheericide...


----------



## owlet

ProtoCosmos said:


> If you combine it all, you get Cheericide...


Maybe Cheeriosicide? This is getting long.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was gonna guess Zachary/Zack, bec it just went with Tyler.
> 
> My brothers name ZachEry/ZaCK. I named him
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently it goes with that pretty well. I would never have expected Jacqueline for you, however.
Click to expand...

And what would you have expected? Lol


----------



## orbit

laurie17 said:


> 'Curios' - halfway between 'curious' and 'cheerios'. (It may just look like a typo though...)


I love Cheerios c,:

Cheericide sounds awesome. I'm going to murder you with carols and joy.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> And what would you have expected? Lol


In keeping with your personality, I would have gathered something like Cassie or Rachel. :wink:


----------



## Future2Future

laurie17 said:


> Maybe Cheeriosicide? This is getting long.


This one sounds like the name of a breakfast cereal genocide :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> And what would you have expected? Lol
> 
> 
> 
> In keeping with your personality, I would have gathered something like Cassie or Rachel.
Click to expand...


Oy vey. Not even lol

My sister's name is Misty Shadow. I named her too :3


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> Oy vey. Not even lol
> 
> My sister's name is Misty Shadow. I named her too :3


Why does everyone have such eloquent names? I've always disliked my name, personally. :laughing:


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Why does everyone have such eloquent names? I've always disliked my name, personally. :laughing:


I've always disliked mine as well for obvious reasons :frustrating:


* *




My name's Negus which is already hard to live with, and combined with my family name I could generate over 50 anagrams containing the word "anus"...


----------



## Persephone Soul

Honestly I don't think I have even showed who I really am in here. The person on this forum is so different than in my daily life. 

Do you guys think your real personalities have shown through in here? Like exactly who you really are...? 

My husband has straight laughed at how I am perceived in here when I read a few things. Not in a mean way. He's not like that, just in a "uhhh, what are you saying that gives people this idea of you?" Kinda way LOL. Im like, uhhh, nothing. I think maybe for me, I haven't gotten wrapped up in all the interesting and deep convos on here. I just usually keep the the stuff I talk about, very surface oriented. And then I have had a couple emotional moments. But yeah... I dont know. I did the same with my mom too, yesterday in fact. Explained and read some things to her. And she was baffled on the conclusion of ESFJ (she knows a bit about it). 

Anyway, my point here is, does anyone feel like only a slice of themselves has been revealed and now, thats the persona they hold online? I do. Its kinda of weird, but interesting lol

Just spinning my wheels. Dont mind me...


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Why does everyone have such eloquent names? I've always disliked my name, personally. :laughing:


Yours is a classic. In the Bible you're the father of John the Baptist, who was struck dumb for doubting you could have a son until you wrote 'His name is John' on a tablet, one of the niftiest stories) _And_ the most annoying angel on Supernatural is a Zachariah)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oy vey. Not even lol
> 
> My sister's name is Misty Shadow. I named her too :3
> 
> 
> 
> Why does everyone have such eloquent names? I've always disliked my name, personally.
Click to expand...

I like it. Obviously, I named my little brother it. I dont know, I was always fond of Z names for boys. I had Zane as an option for my son. It's, very... idk... tough? Its a tough'ish male name...


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> I've always disliked mine as well for obvious reasons :frustrating:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My name's Negus which is already hard to live with, and combined with my family name I could generate over 50 anagrams containing the word "anus"...


My first thought was Grand Nagus (Deep Space Nine/Ferengi) :eagerness:


----------



## Persephone Soul

ProtoCosmos said:


> Barakiel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does everyone have such eloquent names? I've always disliked my name, personally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've always disliked mine as well for obvious reasons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My name's Negus which is already hard to live with, and combined with my family name I could generate over 50 anagrams containing the word "anus"...
Click to expand...

Oh my gosh. That was hilarious. Awesome! Lol


----------



## Dangerose

SugarPlum said:


> Honestly I don't think I have even showed who I really am in here. The person on this forum is so different than in my daily life.
> 
> Do you guys think your real personalities have shown through in here? Like exactly who you really are...?
> 
> My husband has straight laughed at how I am perceived in here when I read a few things. Not in a mean way. He's not like that, just in a "uhhh, what are you saying that gives people this idea of you?" Kinda way LOL. Im like, uhhh, nothing. I think maybe for me, I haven't gotten wrapped up in all the interesting and deep convos on here. I just usually keep the the stuff I talk about, very surface oriented. And then I have had a couple emotional moments. But yeah... I dont know. I did the same with my mom too, yesterday in fact. Explained and read some things to her. And she was baffled on the conclusion of ESFJ (she knows a bit about it).
> 
> Anyway, my point here is, does anyone feel like a slicer of themselves has been revealed and bow, thats the persona they hold online? I do. Its kinda of weird, but interesting lol
> 
> Just spinning my wheels. Dont mind me...


I think I'm closer? But it's not quite right maybe. I'm not really sure how people perceive me here though.


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> Honestly I don't think I have even showed who I really am in here. The person on this forum is so different than in my daily life.
> 
> Do you guys think your real personalities have shown through in here? Like exactly who you really are...?
> 
> My husband has straight laughed at how I am perceived in here when I read a few things. Not in a mean way. He's not like that, just in a "uhhh, what are you saying that gives people this idea of you?" Kinda way LOL. Im like, uhhh, nothing. I think maybe for me, I haven't gotten wrapped up in all the interesting and deep convos on here. I just usually keep the the stuff I talk about, very surface oriented. And then I have had a couple emotional moments. But yeah... I dont know. I did the same with my mom too, yesterday in fact. Explained and read some things to her. And she was baffled on the conclusion of ESFJ (she knows a bit about it).
> 
> Anyway, my point here is, does anyone feel like a slicer of themselves has been revealed and bow, thats the persona they hold online? I do. Its kinda of weird, but interesting lol
> 
> Just spinning my wheels. Dont mind me...


Why baffled? Unless you read her the stereotypical description of an ESFJ, that is.

I'm slightly more erratic and Ne online. More centered in real life. But by in large, the two are much the same. And I've always liked my name -- both the real one and my username.


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> My first thought was Grand Nagus (Deep Space Nine/Ferengi) :eagerness:


I may partly have his name but thank god I don't have his face (even partly)...:shocked:


----------



## owlet

ProtoCosmos said:


> I've always disliked mine as well for obvious reasons :frustrating:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My name's Negus which is already hard to live with, and combined with my family name I could generate over 50 anagrams containing the word "anus"...


But your name is so cool! (We can trade.)





SugarPlum said:


> Honestly I don't think I have even showed who I really am in here. The person on this forum is so different than in my daily life.
> 
> Do you guys think your real personalities have shown through in here? Like exactly who you really are...?
> 
> My husband has straight laughed at how I am perceived in here when I read a few things. Not in a mean way. He's not like that, just in a "uhhh, what are you saying that gives people this idea of you?" Kinda way LOL. Im like, uhhh, nothing. I think maybe for me, I haven't gotten wrapped up in all the interesting and deep convos on here. I just usually keep the the stuff I talk about, very surface oriented. And then I have had a couple emotional moments. But yeah... I dont know. I did the same with my mom too, yesterday in fact. Explained and read some things to her. And she was baffled on the conclusion of ESFJ (she knows a bit about it).
> 
> Anyway, my point here is, does anyone feel like only a slice of themselves has been revealed and now, thats the persona they hold online? I do. Its kinda of weird, but interesting lol
> 
> Just spinning my wheels. Dont mind me...


Eh, well I mean no one can ever expose their whole personality ever and online, especially via text, you get a lot of interpretation from others, so words you meant one way may be taken another. I'm a lot more vocal online than in real life and tend to share my opinions more freely (but hopefully politely). Still, I'd have to ask how others saw me to be able to say if it went against who I actually am - but it would to an extent no matter if it was real life or online. Each individual will be exposed to a different angle of your personality. It's mostly contextual.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Cuteness Crack:






Over a decade since I watched this.

The only thing I remember is it was based on a book series, had british voice overs, and featured simplistic drawings of various domestic four legged animals.

Cute is the only reason Winnie the Pooh is so iconic.


----------



## orbit

FearAndTrembling said:


> I was watching something last night on Alphabets/language. The Romans used straight lines in their letters. There wasn't much paper, plus they wrote on stone tablets. lol. That is fucking Ti. Right there. It hit me. When you are writing on that kind of surface, you gotta push down hard, and be straight. It is like cutting fabric or something. It is boring and mechanical. It leaves you little movement. It is rigid, deep and narrow. Like the 10 commandments. It is sterile in a sense. I used to think Te was sterile thought, but now I think Ti is. With curved writing, you can say more with less. You spend less time in "production." Like I complain about Jung being so long winded, that is why I think he is Ti dom. Compare him to CS Lewis. CS Lewis has curves. He is sexy. He has an hourglass figure. His words do. Some girl on here said that Te was sexy, and I kind of rolled my eyes, but those curves are sexy. Lewis is sexier than Jung.
> 
> What can you do within the 10 commandments? Within those lines? Not much. It is still water. But what can do with wider canals? With twists and turns. You create current. Speed. Rapids. Through movement around objects. That is why Ni has a greater intensity than Ti imo. Ni doms have a flowing and twisting current. Like water. Real water.
> 
> I now refer to Ti as "the iron finger". I have dabbled with the idea of a "Ti finger" before, but now I think I got it. The "iron finger" is lifted from an American Indian story I always liked though:
> 
> "Your religion was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God so that you could not forget. The Red Man could never comprehend or remember it."
> 
> I honestly think my entire learning process is a product of inferior Se. lol. Whatever I see, RIGHT THEN, is immediately applied into my vision. I have been refreshing on some anatomy lately, and have been kind of in that vein of thinking. And I was thinking why Ni has more intensity. It is the smallest opening to the world. It is like a hardened artery. Very little blood flows through. But what happens as the hole gets smaller? The pressure rises. From the next function.
> 
> Of course it is summer. More inferior Se thinking. So Se is a nozzle. A garden hose works just like your blood pressure. If you take garden hose without a nozzle, it flows pretty light, like a waterfall. But if you stick your thumb over it a little to block some of the flow, you can increase pressure and squirt somebody with it. Closing the hole, increases the pressure. That is why hardened arteries increase your blood pressure.
> 
> That is also probably why Ni doms have been called "scientists". Because they always have that vision in front of them, and their inferior Se gives them the eureka moment in the environment. I actually think I may be an INTJ now. lol. I think Bruce Lee maybe one also, which is something I have been considering for a while. He is also the ultimate scientist.


This is late but I couldn't get the fact you called CS Lewis sexy out of my mind.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> Cuteness Crack:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over a decade since I watched this.
> 
> The only thing I remember is it was based on a book series, had british voice overs, and featured simplistic drawings of various domestic four legged animals.
> 
> Cute is the only reason Winnie the Pooh is so iconic.


okay never heard of that one.

Hey now, the Winnie the Pooh books are classic. in a cute way yes, but it _is_ for children. they have a charming cleverness. they are well-written. also I love that eeyore's friends don't abandon him even though he is so depressed.


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> This is late but I couldn't get the fact you called CS Lewis sexy out of my mind.


I've been a bit stuck on that too. Ol' Clive and his sexy curves.
This is beautiful. I think you've finally expressed the real spirit of C.S. Lewis.


----------



## Future2Future

hoopla said:


> Cuteness Crack:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over a decade since I watched this.
> 
> The only thing I remember is it was based on a book series, had british voice overs, and featured simplistic drawings of various domestic four legged animals.
> 
> Cute is the only reason Winnie the Pooh is so iconic.


Those voice dubs were so awful, it made me laugh really hard for the wrong reasons... still cute, though! :3 I dare say I miss watching these !


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> SAME.
> 
> Also...is your name Rumpelstiltskin?


I prefer The Dark One, dearie~


----------



## Deadly Decorum

fair phantom said:


> okay never heard of that one.


Generation Gap.  I'm about 7-8 years younger than you.



fair phantom said:


> Hey now, the Winnie the Pooh books are classic. in a cute way yes, but it _is_ for children. they have a charming cleverness. they are well-written. also I love that eeyore's friends don't abandon him even though he is so depressed.


It was a compliment.

Cute can be done well. My favorite cute is simplistic yet not without conflict. 

What I liked about Pooh is how the overall vibe is very non-threatening, and yet 100 Acre Wood itself is a very threatening place. Problems unique to the characters themselves; some based on whimsy, hapless situations, and others based on imagination and fear. Sometimes emotion. Always a simple problem with a unique build up to the climax and an innovative, nearly organic resolution. Like childhood. Perfect cute.

Kipper is tasteful. I don't think.... I'm in the anal stage anymore, but for what it is, it's decent.

Bubbly cute usually disinterests me now that I'm a grown women. Emotional cute (think Wall-E) can grate easily or move if will done... but simplistic cute... cute that doesn't sell or teach anything.... cute that is roughly sketched and doesn't have much to it... where things flow and happen naturally.... with threats that pertain specifically to childhood? The perfected formula for cute (Rugrats is this kind of cute).


----------



## fair phantom

@hoopla yep, I'm ooooooooooooooold

But you are still closer in age to me than I am to any of my siblings. :laughing:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@fair phantom younger or older?

I have one half sibling, 9 years younger than me, who does not live with me.

I will be moving to her location soon.

Very complicated relationship.

I'd rather talk about your siblings.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> @fair phantom younger or older?
> 
> I have one half sibling, 9 years younger than me, who does not live with me.
> 
> I will be moving to her location soon.
> 
> Very complicated relationship.
> 
> I'd rather talk about your siblings.


I'm the youngest. They are older by 10-15 years. I'm actually closer in age to my oldest brother's eldest son than I am to him. My sister is closest in age to me. I love her but she is sort of part-sister, part-quasi-parent, though it has grown more sibling-like now that I am an adult. I'm not as close with my brothers (same weird siblings but-not feel), but I think they are great. We are all quite different but we get along well when we get a chance to see each other. :love_heart: 

I'd love to hear about everyone else's siblings, if they are comfortable sharing. :tranquillity:

ETA: I think my eldest nephew is the same age as @Curiphant o_o (you're 16, right?)


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I'm the youngest. They are older by 10-15 years. I'm actually closer in age to my oldest brother's eldest son than I am to him. My sister is closest in age to me. I love her but she is sort of part-sister, part-quasi-parent, though it has grown more sibling-like now that I am an adult. I'm not as close with my brothers (same weird siblings but-not feel), but I think they are great. We are all quite different but we get along well when we get a chance to see each other. :love_heart:
> 
> I'd love to hear about everyone else's siblings, if they are comfortable sharing. :tranquillity:
> 
> ETA: I think my eldest nephew is the same age as @Curiphant o_o (you're 16, right?)


I am 16 and a half (the half is important because it's finally hitting me that I'm turning seventeen soon)
@Oswin, exposing true spirits is my job~


----------



## Persephone Soul

The Tudors = the death of me!

S2:E5 ... I am a mess after that. Thomas More is my hero. :'(


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I'm the youngest. They are older by 10-15 years. I'm actually closer in age to my oldest brother's eldest son than I am to him. My sister is closest in age to me. I love her but she is sort of part-sister, part-quasi-parent, though it has grown more sibling-like now that I am an adult. I'm not as close with my brothers (same weird siblings but-not feel), but I think they are great. We are all quite different but we get along well when we get a chance to see each other. :love_heart:
> 
> I'd love to hear about everyone else's siblings, if they are comfortable sharing. :tranquillity:
> 
> ETA: I think my eldest nephew is the same age as @Curiphant o_o (you're 16, right?)


I'm 19 years old, and have a family of four, my mother, me, my sister, and my soon to be stepdad. Sometimes my grandfather visits, though those are thankfully few and far between. Now, my sister, well, how do I put this, she's a studious idiot. What I mean by that is, whereas I'm a lazy genius, and that's not being arrogant, simply truthful; she's a person who, while she studies hard when pushed to, and has a goal in her life, she's an idiot, responding unfavorably with my wordplay and doesn't grasp abstract concepts easily. We don't get along, as you may have surmised. :wink:


----------



## Persephone Soul

My parents had a litter of 6...

I am the oldest at 28, then there is a 7 year gap between me and the other 5.

S o the ages are 28...then 21, 20, 18, 14, & 9.

My 9 year old sister is between the ages of her niece and nephew (my kids), who are 10 and 8.

yep, I was pregnant with my daughter (10) while my mom was pregnant with my baby sister (9). 

Father of the Bride , style  lol


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> I'm 19 years old, and have a family of four, my mother, me, my sister, and my soon to be stepdad. Sometimes my grandfather visits, though those are thankfully few and far between. Now, my sister, well, how do I put this, she's a studious idiot. What I mean by that is, whereas I'm a lazy genius, and that's not being arrogant, simply truthful; she's a person who, while she studies hard when pushed to, and has a goal in her life, she's an idiot, responding unfavorably with my wordplay and doesn't grasp abstract concepts easily. We don't get along, as you may have surmised. :wink:


I never got along with my sister either.

My mother contributed it to age.

It is much more than that.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> I never got along with my sister either.
> 
> My mother contributed it to age.
> 
> It is much more than that.


The only thing that makes us kind of get along, is snarking at my grandfather. :dry:


----------



## Future2Future

How come I'm only 20 and you guys make me feel like a grandpa :sulkiness:

I live with my mother and two other (older and younger) brothers, respectively (according to my wild guesses) INFJ, ISFJ and INTP :kirby: And the three of us are each about five years apart from each other, so that makes for two different generations between my older brother and the youngest and I feel stuck between Y and Z :suspicion:

BTW, even though I get along pretty okay with my older brother, we never seem to agree on anything because we're not on the same page, and probably not the same book. My younger brother is the opposite, we've been in a constant trolling motion for years :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

This thread needs new life.


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> This thread needs new life.


Bring in the shamans and defibrillators :crazy:


----------



## Barakiel

How do you tell if you're a good writer or not? I'm confused.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Oswin said:


> I'm impressed; I can't write fight scenes!
> I'm not even good at war. One story I just went 'And for the next five years we had war'.
> And it's why the last thing I wrote was such a chore, it was a knight (Sir Kay) and obviously kinda difficult to avoid that....I kept getting more and more...cheatery, I wrote one genuine fight scene and then I just had..."There was kinda a battle but there was also a fire so I couldn't see anybody else and also there was a lion...symbolism! Yay it's over!" and then the only other one was just totally abstract and...yeah.
> 
> If I write again I will avoid these scenarios, I can't flee the battle scenes forever)


I'm bad at plots in general... a fight scene? No way. I'm not interested in fight scenes anyway. I'd rather read about war than write about it.

Something comes to me and I write it. It's typically a short story or poem. That's how I roll.


----------



## Greyhart

Doing 80q questionnaire has to give some kind of forum achievement. Seriously I lose the wind just by looking at it.


----------



## Barakiel

Oswin said:


> I'm impressed; I can't write fight scenes!
> I'm not even good at war. One story I just went 'And for the next five years we had war'.
> And it's why the last thing I wrote was such a chore, it was a knight (Sir Kay) and obviously kinda difficult to avoid that....I kept getting more and more...cheatery, I wrote one genuine fight scene and then I just had..."There was kinda a battle but there was also a fire so I couldn't see anybody else and also there was a lion...symbolism! Yay it's over!" and then the only other one was just totally abstract and...yeah.
> 
> If I write again I will avoid these scenarios, I can't flee the battle scenes forever)


It's not that difficult, I just write them from the viewpoint of that I'm the person doing these things, probably makes them feel more in the moment. I can see how they might be annoying for someone focused on large story arcs, however. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> I don't know what I could show you though. really my death scenes all suck, they're just... disturbing imo. I wrote a scene that's really emotional that's like an out spurt of my story... like sort of an AU of my big story, and that's terrible. My dad read it and it's like the one scene I've written from my big story that he likes which disturbed me slightly but lol yeah.
> 
> Idk, I might send you it in the morning if you don't mind. But I'd rather do that through PM ^^


Still a rather unique experience from someone like you, so I do want to see how you'd do it. :laughing: And sure, PM me if you want, I don't mind. :wink:


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> Doing 80q questionnaire has to give some kind of forum achievement. Seriously I lose the wind just by looking at it.


Me too. I used to enjoy doing that kind of stuff when I was teenager, but I think my attention span has actually decreased as an adult. :-/


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> It's not that difficult, I just write them from the viewpoint of that I'm the person doing these things, probably makes them feel more in the moment. I can see how they might be annoying for someone focused on large story arcs, however. :wink:


For me it's not the mindset as much as the actual plot.

Am I to Si to create environments people shape and interact with in order to advance the plot?

I can only create.... very specific environments. And they typically rely more on the character than the setting.

Maybe that's a good thing. I read Willa Cather's My Antonia. Good book? Sure.... but you live in the prairie there is a shit ton of sagebrush I get it.

That's why I liked Little House on the Prairie so much. The desert sounded alive.... rather than dead. I guess Wilder thought sagebrush was boring too.
@ElliCat It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't ask me how to use volitional force or what sorts of strategies of attack exist.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> For me it's not the mindset as much as the actual plot.
> 
> Am I to Si to create environments people shape and interact with in order to advance the plot?
> 
> I can only create.... very specific environments. And they typically rely more on the character than the setting.
> 
> Maybe that's a good thing. I read Willa Cather's My Antonia. Good book? Sure.... but you live in the prairie there is a shit ton of sagebrush I get it.
> 
> That's why I liked Little House on the Prairie so much. The desert sounded alive.... rather than dead. I guess Wilder thought sagebrush was boring too.


I'd agree you're Si, I've found that Si is great at worldbuilding, whereas Ni is focused on sending particular messages with their work, see @alittlebear. As for what functions I use for my writing, I can't say. I just think about fights a lot, and there's a particular strategical flair to it that I love, so I mould my stories around that. For instance, you have someone who can stop time, and wields firearms, versus someone who can create rifles out of nothing and use ribbons as hooks to get around the place. How do you make a fight out of that? How about show how their attacks cancel each other out with the whole time stop thing? Bonus points if anyone knows what anime that fight is from. :wink:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

oh that was a typo.

I meant I cannot worldbuild.

there was supposed to be a negative somewhere in that sentence.

What happens is I will be doing something, an idea will strike... and that's what it is.

Sometimes I can create a plot out of it.... otherwise it's very character based. World building? I am terrible.... unless I try.


* *




@Fair Phantom sorry for the PM I hope you don't reply to that.

I get emotional sometimes and then I vent to those whom I can be like semi anonymous with and it's really weird.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> oh that was a typo.
> 
> I meant I cannot worldbuild.
> 
> there was supposed to be a negative somewhere in that sentence.
> 
> What happens is I will be doing something, an idea will strike... and that's what it is.
> 
> Sometimes I can create a plot out of it.... otherwise it's very character based. World building? I am terrible.... unless I try.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Fair Phantom sorry for the PM I hope you don't reply to that.
> 
> I get emotional sometimes and then I vent to those whom I can be like semi anonymous with and it's really weird.


Oh? That's rather interesting, I always thought Si was a stickler for details, so this is rather perplexing. Are we going to type you based on the type of stories you write, though? Apparently that's not accurate at all. :wink: But regardless, I have a thing with stories, I don't like them to be too bogged down by character interaction. Though maybe that's just me.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

NO

my screen crashed.


FML


----------



## Deadly Decorum

....I was on the Fe block. :exterminate:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Barakiel

I am absolutely horrible at details, unless I am in a situation in which attention to detail is important, in which I over check every speck and span, obsessing over them. Due to this, I ignore details. It's never a healthy thing. Being a house keeper was a horrible job for me. I almost got fired because I overchecked everything so damn much, because I felt so detatched from what I was doing. The rapid speed limit did not help.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> @Barakiel
> 
> I am absolutely horrible at details, unless I am in a situation in which attention to detail is important, in which I over check every speck and span, obsessing over them. Due to this, I ignore details. It's never a healthy thing. Being a house keeper was a horrible job for me. I almost got fired because I overchecked everything so damn much, because I felt so detatched from what I was doing. The rapid speed limit did not help.


Seems like neurotic Ne-Si to me. Have you ever thought you're an INTP? :happy:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Seems like neurotic Ne-Si to me. Have you ever thought you're an INTP? :happy:


Why do people keep suggesting this wtf.

????????

I mean <3 the sensory.

Make-up and clothes and stuff.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Why do people keep suggesting this wtf.
> 
> ????????


Perhaps because they notice something you don't? Is that so bad a suggestion? :wink:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Perhaps because they notice something you don't? Is that so bad a suggestion? :wink:


I don't think I'm a thinker.

Or an INTP anyway.

Especially when one of my biggest struggles is "OMG DOES EVERYONE HATE ME" and I loathe criticism. Sensitive soul. Very T.

Aren't INTPs stereotypically brilliant or something?


----------



## Future2Future

hoopla said:


> Why do people keep suggesting this wtf.
> 
> ????????


Technically if you're ISFJ, you're not to far from them since you should share the same functions, if they were all developped equally you shouldn't be able to tell the difference.


----------



## Dangerose

@hoopla I've thought INTP for you too. ISFJ works, but you give off a thinker vibe in some respects (just...vibe, I don't have anything to back that up). Inferior Fe can be a 'sore spot' I think?


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> I don't think I'm a thinker.
> 
> Or an INTP anyway.
> 
> Especially when one of my biggest struggles is "OMG DOES EVERYONE HATE ME" and I loathe criticism. Sensitive soul. Very T.
> 
> Aren't INTPs stereotypically brilliant or something?


Stereotypes are stupid. They also say that all INTJs must be masterminds and all INFPs are softies too good for this sinful earth. :dry:

Higher and lower Fe is harder to distinguish, plus, NTPs are usually sensitive to criticism as well, it's the Te's that don't care. Ti is sure in its own logical aptitude, but still desires other people's opinions on whether that's right. Even lower Fe exists in INTPs, it's not just invisible.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

If the Ne looks better than inferior....


ESFJ is an option.


----------



## Future2Future

hoopla said:


> If the Ne looks better than inferior....
> 
> 
> ESFJ is an option.


Nah... I'm no expert but I definitely don't get Fe/Si vibes from you (and you don't sound nowhere near my ISFJ brother :laughing


----------



## Immolate

I think hoopla's Fe is too strong for INTP. I started feeling this way when you refused to answer or would admit you thought differently when someone else offered a point of view closer to your own (Bear, me). The thinky parts are there, though.


----------



## fair phantom

SugarPlum said:


> so i just started S3, and uhhh... just from the credits, looks like they switched the actress for Jane Seymour. Good. I wasn't feeling the first one. Hope this one is better. She looks like she will be.
> 
> PS. My heart strings were actually pulled a bit bu the finale with Anne.


I think it is hard to deny that she did not deserve what happened to her. And she went with admirable dignity.



ElliCat said:


> This is how I approach gift-giving if I'm doing it on my own. At least with gift cards you can show you've put some through into where they might like to spend their money on something FOR THEMSELVES, but you're still giving them the freedom to pick exactly what they want. The ideal is to find something that is so wonderfully them, that they never would have stumbled across themelves, that it actually does add something to their lives. Even if it's totally frivolous.
> 
> Although due to distance and just not caring that much about a lot of old friends and acquaintances, I've stopped giving gifts too. I'm pretty generous (sometimes to the point of stupidity) when I have more money, but right now I'm not in a great position financially so I've become a lot more selfish. Most people get it. If they secretly resent it, it's their problem.
> 
> I've possibly become a bit cynical through years of being given coffee cups and generic bits of jewellery by friends who knew enough about me to know that I drink coffee and wear jewellery, but not enough to know what I actually liked (practically or aesthetically). I hate the clutter of unwanted gifts, and it bothers me that they spent time and money on something that will never be appreciated in the way it might have otherwise been, had it not ended up in my hands. Honestly I'd much rather get nothing, or just take me out to coffee or dinner and pay for my food.
> 
> As for group gifts, I don't mind joining in if I wouldn't've otherwise known what to get and someone else has a great idea. I wouldn't like feeling pressured if I didn't think the gift was good, or if they expected me to give more than I was comfortable giving.


Yeah, sadly I can't really afford to give people gifts. People are understanding. It is hardest with my nieces and nephews because some of them are too young to understand the concept of an adult not having the money to give them Christmas presents (I usually get a group gift like a DVD. I can't afford individual gifts for _eight_ children).

Yeah I also get frustrated when I get something that is supposedly "so me" but is completely not my aesthetic.

Same with group gifts. It can be great if it means a person can get what they really want but what if it isn't what they want?



> Yeah, that's true. I'm finding that as I get older I'm demanding more justifications from myself for my own gut feelings though. It really bothers me when people make blanket judgements or act only according to their own attraction/repulsion, with no desire to look deeper. One thing if it doesn't affect anyone else - I mean I'm perfectly happy to buy a dress based on the fact that it's pretty and feels good in my hands - but if it affects other people in some way then yeah, I do think a little more thought should be put into it.


EXACTLY. you and @laurie17 have summed up quite nicely how Fi & Te should work together.



> I will forever be grateful to Japanese for teaching me about transitive vs. intransitive verbs. I was so excited when I took a linguistics class in my final year of university, and I could actually recognise some terms from the various foreign languages I'd studied! It's understandable that they're not going to teach it that in-depth in schools because most people will never need it, but... LANGUAGE, people! We use it every day! How is it NOT fascinating?!


French gave me the same revelation. I actually wrote one of my university application essays on this topic. (And I got in and they gave me scholarships :smilewoot



> Every language I've learned has expanded my understanding of language and the world around me. I think it's an incredible tool for self-development.


I really need to learn more languages. Awhile back my mom offered to buy me a Rosetta Stone program but she reneged when I said I wanted to learn arabic. -_-



> Oh, did I imply that "useful" wasn't merely a personal thing? My bad. It totally is a lot of the time! I just have strong ideas on what I want to get out of life and it tends towards "experience stuff I want to experience" rather than "be an efficient money-and-baby-making machine". This is problematic for me because I'm currently torn between "let's keep our circumstances as flexible as possible so we can just get the hell out when this gets tedious" and "honey let's buy an apartment somewhere nice so we have a stable home for the cat(s) I desperately need to adopt right now".


Haha me too. I know what I want and what will be "useful" for achieving it, but it doesn't tend to overlap with what most people consider useful. Do you need to buy an apartment to have cats? I did not do well when we didn't have cats. They seem to be pretty essential for my mental health. And my guy feels the same thankfully. His parents thought we were being wasteful when we got them but whatever....




> Oh, I didn't know the north had trams! I didn't grow up with them but I've lived in a city that has them so once I got used to the noise I found myself using them a lot. I'm used to late buses (favourite was in a city where 1 or 2 wouldn't show up at their scheduled time, only to have 3 turn up all at once 20 minutes later). Trains were more reliable in that city. In a colder climate I had to learn that trains were actually less reliable because they'd keep refusing to start (they weren't manufactured in that country). Only ever lived in one place that had a metro system.


I didn't realize either. Now I'm really annoyed with myself for not getting up to the north when I lived in England.

I insist on living in places with decent public transportation. It makes me feel more independent and alive and it is better for the environment.



> I'm hoping this whole push for more mental health awareness actually results in some good, established changes in the system. I won't hold my breath though. In the meantime I'll just do my bit to educate people in relevant situations.


Just got to keep fighting until it does. I owe it to a friend of mine to fight the stigma, which is why I am more open about my problems now, especially the eating disorder.



> I am better at drawing up boundaries now though. Being able to say no to things that don't work for me, and pacing myself socially, etc. It's giving me more energy to be able to push past my comfort zone when appropriate. I know people assume that I don't know how to do that in a way that actually benefits for me, but I think I always have, actually.


Learning how to establish boundaries was one of the most important things I ever learned.




> Hmmm I don't think it has that much to do with quality of eyesight (mine's pretty bad, but I'm still more sensitive to the different temperatures and tones in colours than a lot of people I know). I think it's more in how the brain interprets colours. But I'm not an expert in that area so I don't know for sure. I'd probably Google it if I had time... maybe later.


Oh man that makes me think of the dress that broke the internet. I was really upset that I was going to need glasses or something because I saw white and gold but my INFJ saw blue and black.



> I agree with that - my probably-ESFP "SIL" is like that too (although she occasionally does reckless things still. I think her Fi bucks at being told to change herself for the sake of responsibility). I do think that older people who aren't as developed as they should be are ridiculously easy to type, though, because they're pretty much just the first two functions in a stereotypical way, and the inferior is still a mess.


Yes I know a few adults who are easy to type because of that.



> I don't get offended when my boyfriend forgets until evening, though. He never remembers anything like that, and he's not big on social media, and I feel weird making a bit deal about my birthday anyway.


My boyfriend doesn't have social media, but if he forgot he'd be in big trouble. You see, his birthday is the day after mine so neither of us would have an excuse.

(I keep meaning to reply to some things in these wall-o-texts you and @laurie17 put up but then I...don't)

peace offering ctopus:



alittlebear said:


> I have a child to be energized for in a matter of hours so I will rest now.
> 
> Oh, but hey, has anyone read _Half of a Yellow Sun_? I'm going to start a typing thread for it soon... I tried reading it last summer with little success, but now it's like so much better? It's one of those stories that sings my soul a little. I think one of the main characters is FJ as heck, but I'm hoping someone else has read it and can help me confirm that.


I read it but I don't remember it well enough to type. Great book though.



Greyhart said:


> Doing 80q questionnaire has to give some kind of forum achievement. Seriously I lose the wind just by looking at it.


I didn't even have my adhd medicine while I was doing it. Someone give me a medal.



hoopla said:


> oh that was a typo.
> 
> I meant I cannot worldbuild.
> 
> there was supposed to be a negative somewhere in that sentence.
> 
> What happens is I will be doing something, an idea will strike... and that's what it is.
> 
> Sometimes I can create a plot out of it.... otherwise it's very character based. World building? I am terrible.... unless I try.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Fair Phantom sorry for the PM I hope you don't reply to that.
> 
> I get emotional sometimes and then I vent to those whom I can be like semi anonymous with and it's really weird.


I looooove world building. An ENFP friend and I used to spend hours and hours worldbuilding together.


* *




I was going to after I caught up on the thread but if you don't want me to I won't. No need to apologize though. I understand the impulse and I wasn't bothered at all! I was rather moved in fact.






hoopla said:


> NO
> 
> my screen crashed.
> 
> 
> FML


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!



hoopla said:


> If the Ne looks better than inferior....
> 
> 
> ESFJ is an option.


No way do you have inferior Ti. I think ISFJ is a good fit.
@alittlebear @Oswin and everyone else. I want to read your writing! I want to read everyone's writing! weeee!


----------



## Future2Future

How about something like equal Ne and Ti with Fe being only slightly stronger than the other two?


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> How about something like equal Ne and Ti with Fe being only slightly stronger than the other two?



Don't know, I'm no typing master. I just feel she'd have more confidence in her reasoning. (Sorry about not using "you," hoopla.)


[Edit] @hoopla do you have a gmail account? Writing up your questionnaire in Google Drive will keep you from losing your work.


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> I'd agree you're Si, I've found that Si is great at worldbuilding, whereas Ni is focused on sending particular messages with their work, see @alittlebear. As for what functions I use for my writing, I can't say. I just think about fights a lot, and there's a particular strategical flair to it that I love, so I mould my stories around that. For instance, you have someone who can stop time, and wields firearms, versus someone who can create rifles out of nothing and use ribbons as hooks to get around the place. How do you make a fight out of that? How about show how their attacks cancel each other out with the whole time stop thing? Bonus points if anyone knows what anime that fight is from. :wink:


Rebellion.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Don't know, I'm no typing master. I just feel she'd have more confidence in her reasoning. (Sorry about not using "you," hoopla.)
> 
> 
> [Edit] @hoopla do you have a gmail account? Writing up your questionnaire in Google Drive will keep you from losing your work.


that is what i did. google drive's auto-save is a lifesaver.


----------



## To_august

shinynotshiny said:


> Writing up your questionnaire in Google Drive will keep you from losing your work.


This is how I did 80Q as well :kitteh:
It saved me some precious nerve cells, when my PC crushed several times.


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> How about something like equal Ne and Ti with Fe being only slightly stronger than the other two?


a). ISFJ
b). There's no equal. Aux function is a worker for dominant, they are not equal. Tert is forever a favorite _child_.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> that is what i did. google drive's auto-save is a lifesaver.


After years of depending on a crappy (but loved, much loved) laptop, I finally have a super reliable desktop... but I used Google Drive anyway because you never know :unconscious:


----------



## owlet

(Working on other replies, but just trying to get in while writing talk is happening because writing!)



Barakiel said:


> I'd agree you're Si, I've found that Si is great at worldbuilding, whereas Ni is focused on sending particular messages with their work, see @_alittlebear_. As for what functions I use for my writing, I can't say. I just think about fights a lot, and there's a particular strategical flair to it that I love, so I mould my stories around that. For instance, you have someone who can stop time, and wields firearms, versus someone who can create rifles out of nothing and use ribbons as hooks to get around the place. How do you make a fight out of that? How about show how their attacks cancel each other out with the whole time stop thing? Bonus points if anyone knows what anime that fight is from. :wink:


(The anime was Madoka, right?)

I think Si-Ne is good at world building, mostly because Si lends some realism to it (usually it ends up being relateable and/or familiar to readers due to some kind of structure i.e. Tolkien's politics are very much set into old myths (rightful king, large-scale good vs evil etc.), J.K. Rowling did English boarding school with magic etc.) and Ne is good at expanding from one idea to many interlinking ones (This is from my perspective, so Ne is a lot more active) which in turn builds a world. I find that Ni-Se authors are often more into small-scale stories about one or two main characters (Donna Tartt always has her stories set in a small area, for example).

Personally, I write action-packed stories with meaning/symbolism entering as a sort of by-product (my mum noticed most of my stories have a fixation on darkness, shadows and so on, plus usually the protagonist wants to escape from somewhere) and I prefer writing stories on a large scale, but from a personal perspective. Often (unsure how often) Ni-Se users tend to write almost 'literary' in style, with loads of symbolism and fairly 'delicate' description.

I'll also echo what @angelcat said - after writing for 7 years, I looked back at my first ever short story and the difference is immense. I'm not a great writer by any means, but each new project is better than the last (not by loads, but it's noticeable). If you get yourself into a routine, it's a lot easier to set aside time for going into your story - and it works as a good way of retreating from life for a while and getting some peace, plus it helps with focus. It can be hard at times (I've done that stereotypical thing of putting my head on the desk and saying 'it's all rubbish' a few times...), but it's worth it for the feeling you get when you're in the flow :ghost3:

Also @hoopla I think you're ISFJ with well-developed Ti. Your Ne is very small (and is often put in the back seat by Si), so INTP or ESFJ are unlikely.


----------



## Greyhart

*sigh* you guys are too creative. I can't muster enough care for my ideas to implement them.









I keep waiting for a worthy idea (for anything, honestly, I'd take sudden passions for sports and knitting at this point) but none sticks for long enough for me to get invested in it.


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> *sigh* you guys are too creative. I can't muster enough care for my ideas to implement them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I keep waiting for a worthy idea (for anything, honestly, I'd take sudden passions for sports and knitting at this point) but none sticks for long enough for me to get invested in it.


The thing is, with areas of my stories I get fed up with them and think I could easily move onto the next idea, but I stick with it because I want to finish - and sometimes those scenes become some of the best. All I can recommend is either try sticking with something until it's finished. or try out a lot of things and if you keep coming back to something in particular, that might be the one for you.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> The thing is, with areas of my stories I get fed up with them and think I could easily move onto the next idea, but I stick with it because I want to finish - and sometimes those scenes become some of the best. All I can recommend is either try sticking with something until it's finished. *or try out a lot of things and if you keep coming back to something in particular, *that might be the one for you.


That I try
"THIS IS A GREAT IDEA"
_*a few hours later... or next day at best*_
"... what was that idea? no I hAVE A BETTER IDEA NOW"

Seems like I am most consistent with sticking to puzzles, math and video games. :dry:


----------



## orbit

"Party people."


----------



## Greyhart

Curiphant said:


> snip
> 
> "Party people."


I'll never get over wage gap between ENTJ and ENTP on this graph.


















nO I AM NOT


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> That I try
> "THIS IS A GREAT IDEA"
> _*a few hours later... or next day at best*_
> "... what was that idea? no I hAVE A BETTER IDEA NOW"
> 
> Seems like I am most consistent with sticking to puzzles, math and video games. :dry:


I have a similar thing, though more toned-down. I've usually got 2+ ideas for stories, and I'll sometimes work on a couple at once, but really I work best when focusing on one. Still, there's no law that says you can't work on 2 or more, so why not try working on a couple of stories at the same time? You can switch between them if you get tired of one.

Puzzles and video games require creativity to solve, so you are creative. (Also did you write that bit in your signature? Because it's awesome.)

(No, not Maths! *burning sounds*)




Greyhart said:


> I'll never get over wage gap between ENTJ and ENTP on this graph.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nO I AM NOT


Heheh.

The main thing I noticed was The Pragmatist and The Originator have the most awful, boring descriptions ('Likes rules to follow, desires structure' and 'Free-spirited party people'). Wow.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> I have a similar thing, though more toned-down. I've usually got 2+ ideas for stories, and I'll sometimes work on a couple at once, but really I work best when focusing on one. Still, there's no law that says you can't work on 2 or more, so why not try working on a couple of stories at the same time? You can switch between them if you get tired of one.
> 
> (Also did you write that bit in your signature? Because it's awesome.)


Noo, I didn't write that. Unfortunately. It's most amazing ENTP post I've seen, though.



> Puzzles and video games require creativity to solve, so you are creative.


Depends how you see creativity. For me ideas=creativity is the same as congratulating myself for breathing. "Oh, good job, you produced more CO2." sort. On the other hand, I'm surrounded by people that constantly create things. Even if sometimes repetitive - not going out of their comfort zones. To me it's quite enviable. I go through short bursts but deflate when faced with something long-term. If I estimate that something will take too long I won't even start it. Basically I view: actual creation > ideas.



> (No, not Maths! *burning sounds*)


Haha, I hated it in school - too repetitive, droning same equation over and over for many lessons until finally moving on. Now I'm just doing "recreational math" for my own sake.



> The main thing I noticed was The Pragmatist and The Originator have the most awful, boring descriptions ('Likes rules to follow, desires structure' and 'Free-spirited party people'). Wow.


"The Patriarch" you meant? I skimmed over, saw "dislikes change", rolled my eyes, moved on.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

*The defender.*

Well, it's better than the nurturer. Granny has balls of steel at least.

The INFP sounds like an Fe dom lol.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

If you want to write:

Nothing can be forced. So then what do you write?

Read. You read a lot. You guzzle down Cummings and Keats and Plath and Neruda or something else if you dislike poetry. The idea is not to copy a particular style. The idea is to become comfortable with literary forms, and to fuel inspiration.

Do things. Go outside. Watch the news. Inspire yourself.

Journal and pen everywhere you go. In your purse, or whatever people without a purse use to store things, and especially on the night stand next to your bed.

....I'm serious. this is how I've always done it.


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Genuine question ><
> I thought the "right" would have indicated that. Originally it was "kindness has nothing to with functions?" but I stared at it and decided it sounded accusatory. Sorry and thanks
> @laurie17, do certain functions do a better job of "executing" the kindness?


Ah, I only saw the unedited question, entirely my fault.

I'd say it depends where your motivation for the kindness or hatred comes from. Fe is more tuned to feeling other people's emotional states, when they're hurt, you're hurt. Fi, on the other hand, is rather self sufficient, for better or worse, as it's entirely dependent on what the person itself is feeling. :happy:


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> Fool. Thumb drives are obsolete.


You know we can't use the cloud any more, it's been corrupted by chemtrails. 
It is the ancient prophecy that asked for everything to be written in silicon chips with the holy Intel lithograph. 
All of the prophets have lost the microSD cards because they were made smaller than thy pocket lint... :ninja: 
Our only hope is the RFID patch I have stuck on my left buttock and I fear that removing it will make me scream in agony after losing 3 cubic centimetres of hair and dandruff. It would make my face go like :th_sur: ... you know !:th_sur::th_sur::th_sur:


----------



## owlet

Curiphant said:


> Genuine question ><
> I thought the "right" would have indicated that. Originally it was "kindness has nothing to with functions?" but I stared at it and decided it sounded accusatory. Sorry and thanks
> @_laurie17_, do certain functions do a better job of "executing" the kindness?


Hm, I thought about this for a while, but I don't think so. Anyone can do kind things for other people. It has nothing to do with functions, but more about empathy and upbringing (learning respect for others etc.).


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> Ah, I only saw the unedited question, entirely my fault.
> 
> I'd say it depends where your motivation for the kindness or hatred comes from. *Fe is more tuned to feeling other people's emotional states, when they're hurt, you're hurt*. Fi, on the other hand, is rather self sufficient, for better or worse, as it's entirely dependent on what the person itself is feeling. :happy:


I disagree. That's basic empathy. Fe is about judging ethics - judging through external criteria. It's not about feelings at all (which is why I like the Socionics term introverted/extroverted ethics more - it's less misleading).


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> You know we can't use the cloud any more, it's been corrupted by chemtrails.
> It is the ancient prophecy that asked for everything to be written in silicon chips with the holy Intel lithograph.
> All of the prophets have lost the microSD cards because they were made smaller than thy pocket lint... :ninja:
> Our only hope is the RFID patch I have stuck on my left buttock and I fear that removing it will make me scream in agony after losing 3 cubic centimetres of hair and dandruff. It would make my face go like :th_sur: ... you know !:th_sur::th_sur::th_sur:


I cannot compute nonsense.

(why the left buttock tho)


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> I cannot compute nonsense.
> 
> (why the left buttock tho)


I don't know, it's probably a reference to James Bond's left nut that hasn't been hit by Le Chiffre at the end of Casino Royale.


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> I disagree. That's basic empathy. Fe is about judging ethics - judging through external criteria. It's not about feelings at all (which is why I like the Socionics term introverted/extroverted ethics more - it's less misleading).


That's a part of Fe, yes, but what I said was another part. With Fe, your sense of self is secondary, compared to how other people react to things. Basic empathy is that, yes, but it's different in that it's intentional, not subconscious. Fi, on the other hand, is all about how *you* feel, and whether that means intense introspection, not caring about other people's problems, or caring because you know how it feels to be in their shoes, what have you. Socionics is a whole 'nother ball game.


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> I don't know, it's probably a reference to James Bond's left nut that hasn't been hit by Le Chiffre at the end of Casino Royale.


Ah, of course, it makes all the sense.


----------



## Future2Future

Dammit, I had it wrong, it was the right one @2:46 :mellow:


----------



## owlet

Barakiel said:


> That's a part of Fe, yes, but what I said was another part. With Fe, your sense of self is secondary, compared to how other people react to things. Basic empathy is that, yes, but it's different in that it's intentional, not subconscious. Fi, on the other hand, is all about how *you* feel, and whether that means intense introspection, not caring about other people's problems, or caring because you know how it feels to be in their shoes, what have you. Socionics is a whole 'nother ball game.


Hm, I can see what you're getting at. I think it's that Fe users are more concerned with the external environment or atmosphere, while Fi users are more concerned with the internal environment/atmosphere ('This is right' vs 'I feel this is right' - objective/outward vs subjective/inward). I really don't think Fi users don't care about other people's problems, though. I mean, I know I care when I see people suffering (I've had issues with getting really down due to over-empathising and genuinely being able to mentally experience an interpretation of their pain). I think most people would care.


----------



## fair phantom

laurie17 said:


> I know I care when I see people suffering (I've had issues with getting really down due to over-empathising and genuinely being able to mentally experience an interpretation of their pain). I think most people would care.


Same here.


----------



## Barakiel

laurie17 said:


> Hm, I can see what you're getting at. I think it's that Fe users are more concerned with the external environment or atmosphere, while Fi users are more concerned with the internal environment/atmosphere ('This is right' vs 'I feel this is right' - objective/outward vs subjective/inward). I really don't think Fi users don't care about other people's problems, though. I mean, I know I care when I see people suffering (I've had issues with getting really down due to over-empathising and genuinely being able to mentally experience an interpretation of their pain). I think most people would care.


Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, that Fe users rely on what other people think and what is socially acceptable for ethics, and Fi users will ruminate for ages on what they feel is the right thing. And of course all Fi users are different, I was simply stating that it's a possible interpretation of Fi, though I will also say that how Fi and Fe empathize with problems is fundamentally different. :happy: From my interpretation of it, Fe sees the effects of what the people suffering are going through, and Fi literally puts themselves in the mindset of the person suffering, thereby, Fi users seem a lot more sure in themselves, because they've lived through it, whereas Fe only sees the outside results.


----------



## Apple Pine

As this thread became a live chat...

Peter listens to a new song, and can easily feel that this song is somewhat similar to the one he has already heard. However, he sometimes finds it hard to say what song it is. 

What do you think, which functions it's related to, if it is?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Here is my hold up. ... I was deemed Fe dom, because I was affected by others emotionally. This is weird to me. Just because I am affected by the environment, should not equate to Fe. I don't CARE about whats going on around me. I don't adjust on behalf of others. I adjust on behalf of myself. I am POSITIVE Fi users do this too! 

Annoyed -_-


----------



## Immolate

woogiefox said:


> As this thread became a live chat...
> 
> Peter listens to a new song, and can easily feel that this song is somewhat similar to the one he has already heard. However, he sometimes finds it hard to say what song it is.
> 
> What do you think, which functions it's related to, if it is?


Tip of the tongue phenomenon.

As for functions, I've seen it attributed to Si (comparison of past/present information).


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> laurie17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hm, I can see what you're getting at. I think it's that Fe users are more concerned with the external environment or atmosphere, while Fi users are more concerned with the internal environment/atmosphere ('This is right' vs 'I feel this is right' - objective/outward vs subjective/inward). I really don't think Fi users don't care about other people's problems, though. I mean, I know I care when I see people suffering (I've had issues with getting really down due to over-empathising and genuinely being able to mentally experience an interpretation of their pain). I think most people would care.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, that Fe users rely on what other people think and what is socially acceptable for ethics, and Fi users will ruminate for ages on what they feel is the right thing. And of course all Fi users are different, I was simply stating that it's a possible interpretation of Fi, though I will also say that how Fi and Fe empathize with problems is fundamentally different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From my interpretation of it, Fe sees the effects of what the people suffering are going through, and Fi literally puts themselves in the mindset of the person suffering, thereby, Fi users seem a lot more sure in themselves, because they've lived through it, whereas Fe only sees the outside results.
Click to expand...


This. All of it. Between you and Lauries discussion here, I am nothing of the Fe and everything of the Fi.

I am just more "loud" in my emotions than a typical Fi user, but my Enneagram is also the tripple-reactive one. The most reactive of the enneagram tritypes.


----------



## Apple Pine

shinynotshiny said:


> Tip of the tongue phenomenon.
> 
> As for functions, I've seen it attributed to Si (comparison of past/present information).


Peter says that he doesn't compare anything to the past events, and the feeling that the song relates to another song comes out of nothing.


----------



## Barakiel

SugarPlum said:


> This. All of it. Between you and Lauries discussion here, I am nothing of the Fe and everything of the Fi.
> 
> I am just more "loud" in my emotions than a typical Fi user, but my Enneagram is also the tripple-reactive one. The most reactive of the enneagram tritypes.


Glad to see I finally helped someone. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

woogiefox said:


> Peter says that he doesn't compare anything to the past events, and the feeling that the song relates to another song comes out of nothing.


Peter should consider the tip of the tongue phenomenon, which happens to people regardless of age, gender, and culture. Peter should also consider that everyone compares past and present events to some degree, whether consciously or unconsciously.


----------



## Apple Pine

shinynotshiny said:


> Peter should consider the tip of the tongue phenomenon, which happens to people regardless of age, gender, and culture. Peter should also consider that everyone compares past and present events to some degree, whether consciously or unconsciously.


Peter asked me to thank you.


----------



## Immolate

woogiefox said:


> Peter asked me to thank you.


I say unto Peter, "You are welcome."


----------



## orbit

SugarPlum said:


> This. All of it. Between you and Lauries discussion here, I am nothing of the Fe and everything of the Fi.
> 
> I am just more "loud" in my emotions than a typical Fi user, but my Enneagram is also the tripple-reactive one. The most reactive of the enneagram tritypes.


You may be that but online you haven't displayed any of that apparently. You can't expect people to change their typing or opinion on what you are if you haven't been giving them the raw data to prove support you are an Fi in the form of thought processes and that shabiz. 

I thought I was an Fe user and for a while I insisted upon it, but people kept pointing out what I was doing was Fi. I had a skewed view of myself and I'm not suggesting that you do because you are much older than me, but this proves that people see eachother differently. 

I am getting the sense of frustration from you and I relate to that. I saw alittlebear going through typing frustration and people insisting she was Si over and over again because arkigos said so (or so it seemed. I don't care if this is true or not). I think at some point, I felt a flash of resentment like people were personally against her being Ni but it was not that

So just in case you feel this way (I'm not sure what the point of all of this is but I guess this would be it), I want to remind you that people are "against" you being Fi for impersonal reasons and they are doing their best to work off their definitions and what they _see_. They don't see you being Fi and you claim you are different online, so basically please don't fault anyone for not recognizing the truth (which may be that you are Fi or Fe). They cannot type you accurately if you are being a different person and I get the feeling you expect this because you claim otherwise. 

Aha there appears to be no solution. Maybe you should attempt further to be your real life self?


----------



## 68097

SugarPlum said:


> Here is my hold up. ... I was deemed Fe dom, because I was affected by others emotionally. This is weird to me. Just because I am affected by the environment, should not equate to Fe. I don't CARE about whats going on around me. I don't adjust on behalf of others. I adjust on behalf of myself. I am POSITIVE Fi users do this too!
> 
> Annoyed -_-


Introverted functions are all separate from the environment. They can't NOT be separate, because they are ruminating, abstracting, personal, and untouchable by outside forces. They _pull away_ from the environment in favor of abstracting it to give it personal meaning -- through Fi, Ti, Si, Ni.

That being said, if you aren't happy thinking of yourself as an ESFJ, choose something else. 

Why type does your mother think you are?


----------



## orbit

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Curiphant said:


> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story


Is it bad I don't want to fund them because the situation in Greece is an untapped economics case study?


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, that Fe users rely on what other people think and what is socially acceptable for ethics, and Fi users will ruminate for ages on what they feel is the right thing. And of course all Fi users are different, I was simply stating that it's a possible interpretation of Fi, though I will also say that how Fi and Fe empathize with problems is fundamentally different. :happy: From my interpretation of it, Fe sees the effects of what the people suffering are going through, and Fi literally puts themselves in the mindset of the person suffering, thereby, Fi users seem a lot more sure in themselves, because they've lived through it, whereas Fe only sees the outside results.


I don't know why but I always feel like switching back and forth between Fi and Fe, given your descriptions it's more or less the same thing to me and just contextually dependent... I always see the effects of one's suffering while putting myself in the mindset of the person suffering and see exactly what's going on... except I don't suffer in the end at all and since I can't rely on what I'm supposed to feel, I feel wrong about myself and start dealing with these things logically. 

To give you an example, I really started to feel bad when my mother got cancer a year ago but I wasn't feeling the physical pain she had or whatever, I was feeling very bad for her, knew what she probably felt like and thought of things I should be avoiding in order not to make her feel worse by giving her the factual reasons of why she should stay optimistic because she would make it through for example (could be Fe), unlike my older brother who kept dramatising everything by telling her things like "Wow ! You're sick ! You have the worst disease ever ! People keep dying from it !" at all times, he always made her cry and bought his actions back by cuddling and telling her I'm evil for not caring at times where I'd be seriously pissed off with him for doing this.

Luckily she made it and she's all alive and well now :happy:, I still can't get over how manipulatively (or maybe candidly) my brother acted at that time, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference since he's a bit of a drama queen to me and I suppose this is how my Fi "feels" like. 


My frustration lead me to complete yet another way too long questionnaire that would only make my typing even more of a problem...:bored:


----------



## orbit

Avalnoah said:


> Is it bad I don't want to fund them because the situation in Greece is an untapped economics case study?


Bastard there are lives and wellbeings at stake. 

But I can't lecture you on being moral because I'm lying about the PE hours I'm doing. (We're supposed to do X hours of strength for 5% of our grade and hopefully I can realistically lie away half of those. Is it bad that I don't feel guilty because it's gym and it affects nobody but myself what my physical strength prowess is? I mean I'm getting credit for lying but it's high school and 5% >< Watch my online gym teacher be on here)


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Curiphant said:


> Bastard there are lives and wellbeings at stake.
> 
> But I can't lecture you on being moral because I'm lying about the PE hours I'm doing. (We're supposed to do X hours of strength for 5% of our grade and hopefully I can realistically lie away half of those. Is it bad that I don't feel guilty because it's gym and it affects nobody but myself what my physical strength prowess is? I mean I'm getting credit for lying but it's high school and 5% >< Watch my online gym teacher be on here)


Meh. I lied about basically all of my IB CAS hours, and you still have school!???


----------



## Future2Future

Curiphant said:


> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story


Wow, there's even a million quid donation button :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story


Ok, what exactly is this? I don't even know why people need to be extracted out of Greece. :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

I love that we live in an age where countries can be crowdfunded.


----------



## Future2Future

fair phantom said:


> I love that we live in an age where countries can be crowdfunded.


Wait until a random Nigerian prince finds out.


----------



## orbit

Avalnoah said:


> Meh. I lied about basically all of my IB CAS hours, and you still have school!???


I feel comforted to hear you are a (temporary) liar as well. 

Gym and Health during the summer means more classes and time during the actual school year 8D And I can sweat independently >< 
@ProtoCosmos, you strike me as Fi because you were mostly focused on your own values/feelings (you consider the car breaking down more important than the ticket?) and the whole thing about experiencing other people's feelings as yours. c: Again, probably the wrong reasoning in some way but. c: You sound very creative and excitable


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Ok, what exactly is this? I don't even know why people need to be extracted out of Greece. :dry:


What about extraction what

It's crowdfunding Greece's debt away

"we no longer offer a small Greece island anymore."


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> I don't know why but I always feel like switching back and forth between Fi and Fe, given your descriptions it's more or less the same thing to me and just contextually dependent... I always see the effects of one's suffering while putting myself in the mindset of the person suffering and see exactly what's going on... except I don't suffer in the end at all and since I can't rely on what I'm supposed to feel, I feel wrong about myself and start dealing with these things logically.
> 
> To give you an example, I really started to feel bad when my mother got cancer a year ago but I wasn't feeling the physical pain she had or whatever, I was feeling very bad for her, knew what she probably felt like and thought of things I should be avoiding in order not to make her feel worse by giving her the factual reasons of why she should stay optimistic because she would make it through for example (could be Fe), unlike my older brother who kept dramatising everything by telling her things like "Wow ! You're sick ! You have the worst disease ever ! People keep dying from it !" at all times, he always made her cry and bought his actions back by cuddling and telling her I'm evil for not caring at times where I'd be seriously pissed off with him for doing this.
> 
> Luckily she made it and she's all alive and well now :happy:, I still can't get over how manipulatively (or maybe candidly) my brother acted at that time, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference since he's a bit of a drama queen to me and I suppose this is how my Fi "feels" like.
> 
> 
> My frustration lead me to complete yet another way too long questionnaire that would only make my typing even more of a problem...:bored:


Actually, they're very different, it's why you see Fi users ruminate for ages, and angst over stuff, whereas Fe users just want to do their part, help people and keep everyone happy. From the situation you said, it makes me think your brother is either a stupid Fe dom, or very sadistic. You do seem Fi, though, I will say that, stating factual reasons why she should be optimistic seems like inferior Te to me. :happy:


----------



## Immolate

*gasp*

Oswin changed her name?


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> *gasp*
> 
> Oswin changed her name?


You just noticed this?

POOR SE


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> You just noticed this?
> 
> POOR SE


:exterminate:


----------



## Future2Future

Curiphant said:


> What about extraction what
> 
> It's crowdfunding Greece's debt away
> 
> "we no longer a small Greece island anymore."


Meanwhile in Cyprus... LOL



Curiphant said:


> I feel comforted to hear you are a (temporary) liar as well.
> 
> Gym and Health during the summer means more classes and time during the actual school year 8D And I can sweat independently ><
> @ProtoCosmos, you strike me as Fi because you were mostly focused on your own values/feelings (you consider the car breaking down more important than the ticket?) and the whole thing about experiencing other people's feelings as yours. c: Again, probably the wrong reasoning in some way but. c: You sound very creative and excitable


Thank you for your insights, I definitely ought to be Fi-dom :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> What about extraction what
> 
> It's crowdfunding Greece's debt away
> 
> "we no longer a small Greece island anymore."


Ah, I read it wrong, bailout usually means they're in lethal trouble. Well, regardless, it's Greece's problem that they have a debt, the politicians that you vote in should fund that. That said, if you need foreign aid, there are various other channels you can go through.


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Actually, they're very different, it's why you see Fi users ruminate for ages, and angst over stuff, whereas Fe users just want to do their part, help people and keep everyone happy. From the situation you said, it makes me think your brother is either a stupid Fe dom, or very sadistic. You do seem Fi, though, I will say that, stating factual reasons why she should be optimistic seems like inferior Te to me. :happy:


AFAIK, he tested XSFJ everywhere, mostly ESFJ but since he doesn't seem that outgoing I'll go and say he's ISFJ, so the Fe dom theory would make sense.


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> AFAIK, he tested XSFJ everywhere, mostly ESFJ but since he doesn't seem that outgoing I'll go and say he's ISFJ, so the Fe dom theory would make sense.


I'm not saying that he's a healthy Fe user, not at all, but he seems to use it to an extent. As for your type, I can't really say beyond Fi-Te.


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> I'm not saying that he's a healthy Fe user, not at all, but he seems to use it to an extent. As for your type, I can't really say beyond Fi-Te.


I bet he was in what sounded like a Fe/Ne loop or something at that time, if I had to type out the way he acted. 
It's weird because if it wasn't for this I would have sworn he was ISFJ. 

When he's depressed he's always begging for attention and tries to find new ways of slipping himself into conversations by giving useless help or saying useless things at wrong times. 
He would be harassing everybody by asking them "how are you" every five seconds. I assumed he turned into a goldfish for a moment but he still had the face of my older brother and I actually would have liked him better running around in circles in a bowl instead of the flat.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> *gasp*
> 
> Oswin changed her name?


I heard a rumor to that effect.


----------



## Persephone Soul

angelcat said:


> Introverted functions are all separate from the environment. They can't NOT be separate, because they are ruminating, abstracting, personal, and untouchable by outside forces. They _pull away_ from the environment in favor of abstracting it to give it personal meaning -- through Fi, Ti, Si, Ni.
> 
> That being said, if you aren't happy thinking of yourself as an ESFJ, choose something else.
> 
> Why type does your mother think you are?


She said by the definitions in that book (non-function related) INFJ. She hasn't given a specific type, but she is certain on Fi>Fe, Ni=Ne, Si>Se, and Te>Ti. 

Funny you should ask though...I was at her house yesterday with my sisters, and we were talking about the functions and the correlation with all my family. I was saying how I am pretty sure I wasF-dom (but I didn't specify which... my sis #1 doesn't have patience for the details lol). Sis #1 (ISFJ) said "for sure!". Then I was like "so you can SEE it? Would you consider me emotionally expressive?" and she said (paraphrasing to the best of my capabilities...) "well, I KNOW you. Others don't know you so you are very closed off to them, and your emotional times come off as anger. I SEE that you are hurt/angry/mad, and I KNOW you are... but you won't talk about it, unless we ask. Even then you hardly give the whole story. You do that more with mom. Drives me crazy. Although you can get very giddy and excited and show emotions that way. So I guess you are emotionally expressive in action, but verbalizing your emotions hardly happens."..... My mom then said "you and sis #2, are the most emotional people I have ever known. Just by looking at you both, I KNOW you are wounded, or about to erupt. But to get you guys to talk is like pulling teeth. Sis #1 is the same way, but I think she is more concerned about burdening me with her troubles. You two (referring to me and sister #2) are oysters. Never know whats inside until we can crank yuh open.".

That btw, was SERIOUSLY abstract for my mom. We all started laughing, including her lol.

I went on to ask them what they thought about me being open yet closed, because that was how I view myself. They all chimed in and was saying that I am OPINIONATED when it matters to me, and won't back down. I can be intimidating, because I am so sure of myself. And you may get emotional, but you run and hide.

And what ALL of them (including my brother who came out for a split second at this point) said, was "YOU. ARE. A. INTROVERT!". I tried to explain the functions and how this and that and blah blah blah (my mom already knows). They all said they didn't care. LOL

And that was about the most I could squeeze out of them. I am SO surprised they actually talked more than 2 mins on the subject. My sis #1 hates typology talk (prob cause she is a phych major lol). Sis #2, doesn't really understand nor care to. And mom, well.. she does it for me hah.

Anyway, I know it doesn't really matter what others say, it matters what is fact. And because everyone insists that Fe-dom is FACT, I guess I am stuck with it. I do however agree with my family, and it was really interesting to hear them say the exact things I was already thinking. It shows me that I am not delusional about myself, and somehow there is a mistranslation, because everyone online sees the opposite. My mom just refuses to accept Fi, and when I told her, yeah but... she was like, "no... I get it. I see it in sis #1, bro#1, grandma, aunt #1, your son... etc. But you and sis #2 and bro#2 are Fi.". 

Anyway, oh well. Just gonna stick with ESFJ. I have no way to prove my case. So, ESFJ until then. 

EDIT: And if I am in-fact an ESFJ, I guess it's fine. No biggie... I am just the most bizarre ESFJ in typology history. lol


----------



## orbit

Hm. About being emotionally expressive, I'm not sure if that behaviour is related to being Fe or Fi? I just noticed that in general. And Fi and Fe are more related to ethics and not feelings, according to laurie17 which I think is right...? Again I don't know if I'm right and I'm unexperienced and I'm just learning. 

I am emotionally expressive. I tell people that I am feeling stressed, guilty, happy, I make faces, and etc. Sometimes I can be emotionless and have a dull face if I'm tired or whatever, but that's human. I do have that mix up of body language and actual message going on sometimes but that's not the point. As ElliCat once said, EXFPs are very emotionally and energetic? They get described as bubbly. It bothered me that Fi users couldn't be emotionally expressive because I was. Or am. C: or at least I think I am. 

Alittlebear is sometimes seen as cold and distant by her relatives if I remember correctly. "Cold" and "analytical". She doesn't express things because it depends on what's going around her (I express things even if it might not be appropriate) and I remember she was frustrated when someone claimed that they were BLALA and didn't recognize her efforts but she kept her mouth shut. Emotionally expressive? No. 

Again I don't care what your typing is either way, be whatever you want because a label isn't going to change who you are, and yeah.

Gah, I repeat, I do not know if this is right or wrong


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, productively learning Hungarian today but enjoy my thoughts of the day (well, of last night):

1. I think I am indeed ESFJ
2. Maybe our cognitive functions are actually things we have to overcome, not hold onto.

Here's why: I was thinking about humility and how the strange thing is that we really don't see ourselves as we are, we are blown out of proportion. When we gossip about other people, it's usually not vilifying or deifying, we say things like, "He's so incompetent, yet such a sweet person, I feel bad for him" or "She has such a chip on her shoulder". When other people die...we care, it's a big deal, but it's rarely the end of someone's world and they're still thinking more about themselves, generally, than the person who died.

Ok, maybe that's not relevant to the thing but it was an interesting thought I thought.

Anyways, I was thinking like: when I try to keep someone from gossiping about someone in public, or exercise discretion, it's _not_ because I'm thinking about how they'd feel, I don't even care about them. It's just out of Fe. Fe is actually an impediment, or at least a pander, to my lack of feeling. 

As for Si, for me, I think it's even more harmful. The sentimental attachment to objects, experiences, places, manners, is well and good, but ultimately those are things I will have to give up, at least when I die, and clinging onto these things or ideas is perhaps reasonable in an everyday way but ultimately untrue and better to relinquish.

So...difficult point to explain, and practically not that applicable, but I thought it was probably reasonable.


----------



## fair phantom

Curiphant said:


> Hm. About being emotionally expressive, I'm not sure if that behaviour is related to being Fe or Fi? I just noticed that in general. And Fi and Fe are more related to ethics and not feelings, according to laurie17 which I think is right...? Again I don't know if I'm right and I'm unexperienced and I'm just learning.
> 
> I am emotionally expressive. I tell people that I am feeling stressed, guilty, happy, I make faces, and etc. Sometimes I can be emotionless and have a dull face if I'm tired or whatever, but that's human. I do have that mix up of body language and actual message going on sometimes but that's not the point. As ElliCat once said, EXFPs are very emotionally and energetic? They get described as bubbly. It bothered me that Fi users couldn't be emotionally expressive because I was. Or am. C: or at least I think I am.
> 
> Alittlebear is sometimes seen as cold and distant by her relatives if I remember correctly. "Cold" and "analytical". She doesn't express things because it depends on what's going around her (I express things even if it might not be appropriate) and I remember she was frustrated when someone claimed that they were BLALA and didn't recognize her efforts but she kept her mouth shut. Emotionally expressive? No.
> 
> Again I don't care what your typing is either way, be whatever you want because a label isn't going to change who you are, and yeah.
> 
> Gah, I repeat, I do not know if this is right or wrong


Yeah the emotional expressiveness thing is tricky. I think my level of expressiveness varied noticeably between videos.

Going off of what @Princess Langwidere said, I think I had to overcome the insularity of Fi. I had to learn to communicate emotions and look outside myself. I think I was somewhat self-absorbed as a child. For the most part I have to_ choose_ to show emotions, but after much repetition, some of it has become automatic...like muscle memory when playing a sport.


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> I bet he was in what sounded like a Fe/Ne loop or something at that time, if I had to type out the way he acted.
> It's weird because if it wasn't for this I would have sworn he was ISFJ.
> 
> When he's depressed he's always begging for attention and tries to find new ways of slipping himself into conversations by giving useless help or saying useless things at wrong times.
> He would be harassing everybody by asking them "how are you" every five seconds. I assumed he turned into a goldfish for a moment but he still had the face of my older brother and I actually would have liked him better running around in circles in a bowl instead of the flat.


I'd say SFJ for sure, though I'm not entirely sold on ISFJ. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

Curiphant said:


> Hm. About being emotionally expressive, I'm not sure if that behaviour is related to being Fe or Fi? I just noticed that in general. And Fi and Fe are more related to ethics and not feelings, according to laurie17 which I think is right...?
> 
> I am emotionally expressive. I tell people that I am feeling stressed, guilty, happy, I make faces, and etc. Sometimes I can be emotionless and have a dull face if I'm tired or whatever, but that's human. I do have that mix up of body language and actual message going on sometimes but that's not the point. As ElliCat once said, EXFPs are very emotionally and energetic? They get described as bubbly. It bothered me that Fi users couldn't be emotionally expressive because I was. Or am. C: or at least I think I am.
> 
> Alittlebear is sometimes seen as cold and distant by her relatives if I remember correctly. "Cold" and "analytical". She doesn't express things because it depends on what's going around her (I express things even if it might not be appropriate) and I remember she was frustrated when someone claimed that they were BLALA and didn't recognize her efforts but she kept her mouth shut. Emotionally expressive? No.
> 
> Again I don't care what your typing is either way, be whatever you want because a label isn't going to change who you are, and yeah.


It's not really emotional expressiveness, but it's their ethical standards. Fi types are as empathetic as Fe types, but it's their perspective. :wink: I'd actually go out on a limb here, and say that the extroverted perceiving functions, Ne and Se respectively, make a person more expressive than an Fe user, because they're consistently engaging outside reality through their senses. Fe users don't, they see outside ethical standards, and Te users, well, they're not expressive at all. :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

See, when I am energetic etc, its always me being a huge goof ball.... laughing. Not taking things seriously. I dont want to talk about my deepest feelings, until I am ready.. and even then, its only with a smallllll chosen few. Me and my husband wrestle, play fight, bet over video games, talk smack, laugh like hell together. When I actually do hang out with friends/family, I am silly as heck. Quirk central. But when I get emotional, I keep it in. I WANNA LEAVE. I may have opinions, but opinions are like "why in the world is mom parking there? ...mom, park there, you make no sense" lol. 

If we're talking about environments. .. the minute I am uncomfortable or i get hurt or whatever, I dont want to stay. I dont want to talk. I want out of their asap. Then if I am forced to stay, my adrenaline may pump up and up... til it comes out as an aggressive explosion. Yeah, you can tell I am emotional while exploding, but I am not talking about my emotions... I am usually like "what you're doing is wrong! I can't be here for this! ".

ps... I rarely get like this. i swear LOL. I am usually super chill.


----------



## Immolate

SugarPlum said:


> See, when I am energetic etc, its always me being. huge goof ball.... laughing. Not taking things seriously. Me and my husband wrestle, play fight, bet over video games, talk smack, laugh like hell together. When I actually do hang out with friends/family, I am silly as heck. Quirk central. But when I get emotional, I keep it in. I WANNA LEAVE. I may have opinions, but opinions are like "why in the world is mom parking there? ...mom, park there, you make no sense" lol.
> 
> If we're talking about environments. .. the minute I am uncomfortable or i get hurt or whatever, I dont want to stay. I dont want to talk. I want out of their asap. Then if I am forced to stay, my adrenaline may pump up and up... til it comes out as an aggressive explosion. Yeah, you can tell I am emotional while explosion, but I am not talking about my emotions.


But anyone can want to get away when they're upset. I think what matters here is how you behave in the day-to-day.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Chilled. Lol. That doesnt say much. Any type can be chill. 

The only reason why I am emphasizing that part, is because those are the times that I get super emotional.

I was thinking of recording my husband (since he has grown up with my. Knew me in school, before motherhood and after). I wanna interview him about me lol. I am super curious what he would say on film... un-coached. 


Anybody have questions I should ask? Lol

I should probably do my own, too...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Luke Skywalker said:


> I've been on very sporadically (and will continue to do so I'm afraid). Sorry I can't help.


Oh, I was just thanking! You've already helped me, don't worry about doing any more ^^


----------



## Future2Future

Curiphant said:


> Hm. About being emotionally expressive, I'm not sure if that behaviour is related to being Fe or Fi? I just noticed that in general. And Fi and Fe are more related to ethics and not feelings, according to laurie17 which I think is right...?
> 
> I am emotionally expressive. I tell people that I am feeling stressed, guilty, happy, I make faces, and etc. Sometimes I can be emotionless and have a dull face if I'm tired or whatever, but that's human. I do have that mix up of body language and actual message going on sometimes but that's not the point. As ElliCat once said, EXFPs are very emotionally and energetic? They get described as bubbly. It bothered me that Fi users couldn't be emotionally expressive because I was. Or am. C: or at least I think I am.
> 
> Alittlebear is sometimes seen as cold and distant by her relatives if I remember correctly. "Cold" and "analytical". She doesn't express things because it depends on what's going around her (I express things even if it might not be appropriate) and I remember she was frustrated when someone claimed that they were BLALA and didn't recognize her efforts but she kept her mouth shut. Emotionally expressive? No.
> 
> Again I don't care what your typing is either way, be whatever you want because a label isn't going to change who you are, and yeah.


I seem to fit the bill with almost everything and I guess I'm a bit expressive as well although I never tell and try to hide my emotions in front of people I don't know (I often involuntarily give out hints due to the faces I make :laughing. I reveal my real self only to close people. 

I remember being in history class remembering something that happened earlier in philosophy class (thinkception:laughing

I felt like I was wasting my time so I started staring at the radio-controlled clock. And suddenly it lost track of time went insane with its hands spinning around really fast in order get to the correct time, it got me giggling for a while.
I pulled out my watch to figure out when the crazy time travel simulator would stop and I somehow expected the clock to fail, and when the clock was speeding down being only an hour away from the correct time and still spinning too fast, expectations were met. 
In fact it went so fast that it missed the time and started spinning for another 12 hours again, I smiled and shrugged it off and tried to find something else to do (i.e. it could go from recreating something close to 9/11 by making an aeroplane with a ruler and pens and make it land in a tower made of a stack of glue sticks, to imagining what would happen if broken clocks allowed time control... All thanks to boredom :crazy

Back to history class, after thinking of all the ways it could have failed otherwise, I was picturing how stupid the whole fail was whilst thinking " well, boom goes the dynamite !", then I started smirking and chuckling and couldn't really hold it in.
After that my stupid teacher interrupted class in order to ask me why I was smiling for, if I was making fun of her, forcing me to explain myself which sounded like my brain having WiFi issues, eventually shattering my few seconds of joy to pieces. 


TL;DR
This is how I think my reactions look like outside









This is how the same reaction would look like front of relatives / close friends


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> But anyone can want to get away when they're upset. I think what matters here is how you behave in the day-to-day.


(I know I need to get away from people when I'm upset. I like sharing my positive emotions, but with negative emotions I like to steal away before they negative flow into other people.)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> I heard a rumor to that effect.


Ooh! May I ask what the inspiration for your name change is?


----------



## Barakiel

Man... I want to change my name, because there's suddenly this notification saying "Hey, wanna change your name? Follow these rules.", but really, I have no ideas. Let it never be said that I am creative, my friends. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I guess I've wanted to change my name for a while. But I'm not sure what I would change it to. I originally planned on switching it to something with elephants - something pretentious like "The Elephant Empress" - but what'd you know, @Curiphant stole that opportunity from me.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Okay, so I asked (*cough*... begged..*cough*) him. He agreed! We made a deal.... anyway, any questions you guys can think of that would help from a husbands perspective. He knows everything. I think I will just write down like 2 it 3 base questions and then follow the branches from there. I just dont know how to get it on youtube. Never made a video like that before... I'll figute it out.

Any suggestions on where to start?


----------



## orbit

alittlebear said:


> (twas a ~serious~ typing question)


(Thy pronounced a rhetoric. Me ignores thy intention)


----------



## Greyhart

out of that pdf this made me snort









Mom still hopes I'll become a corporate girl.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> out of that pdf this made me snort
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mom still hopes I'll become a corporate girl.


Stop whining, I have no chance. I am destined to be employed.


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> out of that pdf this made me snort
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mom still hopes I'll become a corporate girl.





Curiphant said:


> Stop whining, I have no chance. I am destined to be employed.













Stop complaining, it's not like over 50% of you were primed to be housewives...


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> Stop complaining, it's not like over 50% of you were primed to be housewives...


The solution is not to have kids :very_drunk:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Greyhart said:


> out of that pdf this made me snort
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mom still hopes I'll become a corporate girl.


My father is an ENTP. He is a brilliant businessman, and never went to college. He started a small business from scratch. In hindsight, he picked the perfect spot and always got out at the right time. I thought running a business was easy, because my father did it so well. Then when I get out in the world, I realize he is one of the few fucking guys who knows anything. He is the best boss I ever had. By far. The smartest one too. Everybody loves him. He held to me a high standard. And I judge all bosses on him. Nobody has come close. Objectively speaking. I learned this in hindsight, and was shocked. I thought this stuff was easy, because my father made it look easy. It is impossible.


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> The solution is not to have kids :very_drunk:


Likehood of me having children 










* *




"Abrahams" was voluntary :exterminate:


----------



## Immolate

All I see is lens flare.



Also, I think I've had enough of PerC :dry:


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> All I see is lens flare.


It's an art thing, it makes it look like "something spectacular is happening", photophobic audience love it. :crazy:


----------



## Dangerose

ProtoCosmos said:


> Stop complaining, it's not like over 50% of you were primed to be housewives...


I'm surprised INFP is the highest and ESFP is up there. Though when I think about it, it makes sense -- and I suspect ESFPs would be the sort of stay-at-home parent likely to take their kids on lots of cool field trips, making sure they get all kinds of experiences. 
*sigh* I love Se. It's the #1 function I want to develop (so what if it's not in my stack?) I want to be that person who says "guess what everyone we're going x" (I sat here for a couple minutes trying to think of a Se activity. But everything I thought of I interrupted with "no we could all die doing that". Anyways, unfortunately I'm the person saying "ok so here's how we don't die doing this". Which is good on the one hand because I help everybody avoid death but on the other hand no one _feels_ like I'm bringing life to the party.

(But I am, I really am).

That said, I've never understood the stigma against stay-at-home parents. What's more important than raising children? I feel like there should be a bigger stigma about dumping your kids at daycare (assuming there has to be a stigma somewhere).


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> All I see is lens flare.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I think I've had enough of PerC :dry:


stayy
(But also don't waste your life on a website if you're not enjoying or getting anything out of it)


----------



## Purrfessor

Personally I would love to be a stay at home dad. Too bad I'm a male + bad economy.


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> HURRAH! Slightly less debt! :carrot:
> 
> My motivation when studying solo is pretty much non-existent. In the past I've gotten so excited by my _intention_ to study a language that I'll go out and buy audio resources or print out pages upon pages of grammar explanations or sign up for online learning sites, and I'll start learning, and then.... I get bored. Or discouraged. Or distracted.
> 
> As much as classroom learning annoys me, it actually does help me to stick with learning languages. If we have a good teacher it even helps me with the dreaded speaking tasks. :ghost:.


Yeah, maybe I can see if there are some affordable classes in my area. It is funny. With certain things I can easily study on my own, but when it comes to skills 

Speaking tasks were always my least favourite. I'd much rather write an essay. Or a poem. Or _anything_. It took a lot of work to get over my nervousness about speaking English in front of large groups. Adding anxiety about pronunciation makes me feel tongue-tied.



> With that said, boo to you not being able to learn Arabic. How disappointing for you. One shouldn't make promises they can't keep. Which is why I'm very careful to say "I'll think about it" or "I'll try to" instead of "I will". I have good intentions but I can't guarantee that I won't forget, or that I'll regret my decision later on. I guess words alone rarely mean that much to people though.


I hate broken promises. I avoid making them unless I am sure i can keep them, and I ask people to do the same with me. I can deal with disappointment, but if I can't trust a person's word I am likely to pull away from them.

I should have known better though. My mother thought it would put me in danger somehow (whatever mom, I'm still going to visit an arabic-speaking country or 3. you can't stop me). Nevermind that it could have helped me to find a job. 



> Well I have an idea that if we bought an apartment it would be guaranteed to be cat-friendly, and it also would be less tempting to just pack up and leave (that's the boyfriend's main objection to getting a cat - he thinks it would be unfair to the cat if we were to move around too much, especially when overseas is still an option, and I guess we don't have a reliable cat-sitter even if by magic I could convince him to set down roots here). Ideally I'd like a small place in a couple of different "most visited" countries, so I'd have somewhere to keep my stuff, and so that I'd be able to just fly in and know I have a good bed I can crash on.
> 
> But of course all that pesky real-life stuff gets in the way. Stuff like "money" and "practicality" and "what if the apartment block burns down while you're on the other side of the world and you lose everything".
> 
> That thing you have with cats, is what I have with dance. To the point where my parents and boyfriend have recognised it and paid for classes in the past when I couldn't afford it myself. Which made me feel kind of rotten because I like to think I'm an adult who can look after herself, and dance classes can't really be considered a _necessity_. But it was probably pretty bad for them to watch my mental health deteriorate so I'm probably the only one who felt a bit uncomfortable in that situation.
> 
> Clearly for you getting the cats was not wasteful. I'm sure the cats don't think it was wasteful either.*
> 
> *References: I'm a cat. :typingneko:


These are all good reasons to postpone. Adopting a cat or a dog is a commitment. It does restrict movement a bit. If we move abroad the cats are definitely coming with us. Though I loathe the idea of having them in quarantine, I have a friend who did that with her cat when she moved to the states and it was okay. 

If you know you'll be in a place long enough you could always look into fostering (if they do that in Australia?)

That is wonderful about the dance classes. 



> That's really awesome of you. Out of the handful of people I know who have had ED's, only one is really open about it. The others have spoken about it to me but I never really hear others talk about it, or them mention it publically. I don't blame them, because there is so much misinformation and people can be really unhelpful in that regard, but at the same time it's not going to go away if we don't start talking about it.


I don't blame them either. It's hard. Even one of my best guy friends, who seems really openminded told me that he thought girls with eating disorders were really shallow and superficial before he met me. *sigh*. 

But I have a friend who isn't here anymore. Her facebook is still up so every year on her birthday I get a reminder to try to be brave. If I can help even one person avoid her fate then sticking my neck out is worth it.



> Me too. Because too many people will take advantage of you if you don't. That part was tough to learn too. I'm always so worried about imposing myself on other people against their wishes, and I like to see the best in people, so when confronted with individual scenarios of someone crossing my boundaries it'd take me a while to figure out that they were either doing it intentionally or just didn't care. By that point it had turned into such a habit that really the only thing I could do was try to cut the ties.
> 
> I still feel a bit cold now but it's much better for me than melting into a puddle on the floor for people to walk all over.


Some ties aren't worth having.




> Exactly! Do people really feel like they're being censored if they can't say every little thing that comes into their heads, no matter how hurtful it might be? Or is it just an excuse? Because I censor myself all the time. Probably because my brain can be pretty messed up, but still, it doesn't seem so unreasonable to at least try to treat other people with a bit of kindness and respect? Of course their reaction isn't necessarily a reflection on you, because they have their own hang-ups and sometimes things are taken out of context and they're just looking for a reason to get offended, but generally I think if you've tried to be considerate you've done your part.


Some people seem to operate under the misconception that "freedom of speech" means "freedom to say whatever I please and no one is allowed to get upset about it". That isn't what it is for and it doesn't hurt to show some basic respect and consideration for other people.




> I have teachers in my family too, and there are similar problems. It's a pity that teaching is so under-valued as a profession. I have a feeling there'd probably be a lot more teachers with actual talent for the job if they were more supported by the system.
> 
> I still wouldn't do it because I'm not a good teacher full-stop. But I'm sure many other people would consider it, and if there were more people applying, it should become more competitive... at least in theory.


I'm considering going for highschool, but I don't want to teach in an awful situation. I would probably have embarked on the path already if there was better support.



> I've actually found the opposite: people are so used to me accommodating them (I tend to not say no unless I genuinely can't do it) that they take it _badly_ the few times I do say no. To the point of losing friends and a job over it.
> 
> One good reason for leaving and starting over somewhere else.
> 
> 
> I'm trying to prevent those kinds of situations by saying no more often from the beginning now.


how obnoxious. Some friends. :disturbed:




> Yes, it makes me sad when people don't want to be a certain type, because I think all function combinations are great. It's probably worse when behaviour traits get stuck onto functions (like can this "only Fe has empathy" go die in a hole now, please? yes I am taking this personally). But I think both the broadness of Ne-Si and depth of Ni-Se could do great things together if everyone's working in their right place. Sigh. Now I _am_ being idealistic.


CELEBRATE ALL THE FUNCTIONS. :fall:



> @Princess Langwidere I think it's probably less about transcending functions and more about acceptance of your valued functions and striking a balance between them. At least I feel like it's become easier for me having accepted that I'm Fi over Fe and that Ne is going to be simultaneously entertaining and a real pain in the arse. And knowing the potential pitfalls of Fi/Ne/Si/Te can help me keep an eye out for them. But maybe it's going to work differently for different types.


I agree with this.



Curiphant said:


> It sounds like being So and Fi would be interesting? ><


I suppose it is. :hampster:



Curiphant said:


> I don't know. I read a description of So/Sp vs Sp/So and liked the former first and was told I had lots of So and I think I'm a 3w2 but So now sounds too welcoming. So probably Sp/So? Hm. It seems like this is contradictory whee.


I'm inclined to think you are sp/so



shinynotshiny said:


> The solution is not to have kids :very_drunk:


And/or to treat the study as faulty, because it is. :witch: (though I buy ENTPs being the most likely to be self-employed).


----------



## Future2Future

Princess Langwidere said:


> I'm surprised INFP is the highest and ESFP is up there.
> That said, I've never understood the stigma against stay-at-home parents. What's more important than raising children? I feel like there should be a bigger stigma about dumping your kids at daycare (assuming there has to be a stigma somewhere).


Totally agree... What's the point of raising children if neither you or your partner can't handle it by yourselves? If you're not capable then there's no point in having them in the first place. 

They're not supposed to be biologically similar humanoid pets, but children. They deserve infinite amounts of care :kitteh:

As for INFP being the highest, I don't know if it's the case for all INFPs but personally, I hate having to go outside all the time, so if I ever find a job that could let me work from home, I wouldn't mind babysitting at all. That would explain the results :happy:


----------



## owlet

@SugarPlum I had another question to go with those, but then my cat disappeared for a long while and I went to look for him (he was asleep under a bush, so I think another cat chased him). I've now forgotten where I was going with it... I just made a new topic on the Cognitive Functions board about the functions if you're interested. I'm not sure how good it is though.
@shinynotshiny How come? Did anything in particular happen?


----------



## fair phantom

Stelliferous said:


> Personally I would love to be a stay at home dad. Too bad I'm a male + bad economy.


I don't think gender should determine who stays at home (if anyone does). That is for every couple to work out together.



ProtoCosmos said:


> Totally agree... What's the point of raising children if neither you or your partner can't handle it by yourselves? If you're not capable then there's no point in having them in the first place.
> 
> They're not supposed to be biologically similar humanoid pets, but children. They deserve infinite amounts of care :kitteh:
> 
> As for INFP being the highest, I don't know if it's the case for all INFPs but personally, I hate having to go outside all the time, so if I ever find a job could let me work from home, I wouldn't mind babysitting at all. That would explain the results :happy:


I think one parent being able to work from home is the ideal. That is what I would want if I were to have kids: for either I or my husband to work from home , at least until the kids are school age.


----------



## Future2Future

fair phantom said:


> I think one parent being able to work from home is the ideal. That is what I would want if I were to have kids: for either I or my husband to work from home , at least until the kids are school age.


Exactly and if it can't happen, then parents could at least try arranging their schedules accordingly so that when one is working the other one would be at home. Mutual rituals :tongue:


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ How come? Did anything in particular happen?


At the end of the day, PerC is about interacting with people and people have always been a source of frustration :dry:



I love you guys tho :shocked:


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> At the end of the day, PerC is about interacting with people and people have always been a source of frustration :dry:
> 
> 
> 
> I love you guys tho :shocked:


Haha, some people are, for sure. I tend to take it on an individual basis (then be philosophical about the others, that I'm probably learning skills for interaction etc.).


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> Haha, some people are, for sure. I tend to take it on an individual basis (then be philosophical about the others, that I'm probably learning skills for interaction etc.).


It seems I have less patience in the "people" area. I'm surprised I've lasted this long on PerC :cheers2:


----------



## Future2Future

fair phantom said:


> I feel like sometimes contrasting just wind up creating false dichotomies between types, and it can be difficult to do without treating one as better than the other.


That's true.

I feel like each function is individual except they can contextually overlap and lead one to the other.


----------



## KevinHeaven

ProtoCosmos said:


> That's true.
> 
> I feel like each function is individual except they can contextually overlap and lead one to the other.


It doesnt have to be accurate  just like I said its for fun


----------



## Immolate

A while back I came across a thread that assigned pictures to functions. We could try it out with the symbol idea.

Also, I'm in a better mood. Got things sorted for a family member. Stupid stress :tranquillity:


----------



## fair phantom

I have killed the joy. My work here is done. :witch:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> I have killed the joy. My work here is done. :witch:


You cannot kill my joy. 

enguin:


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> You cannot kill my joy.
> 
> enguin:


----------



## Max

shinynotshiny said:


> El Gambino, I agree with what you say, but does this have to do with your recent typing thread?


What? You've lost me, Shinealot. Completely and utterly lost me out there in the cosmos  



ProtoCosmos said:


> I think it has more to do with inspecting and improving your psychological abilities in order to be a better person and / or get different paradigms of other people's mind rather than putting yourself in a predefined box.


Yeah. I didn't say anything about putting yourself in a box, but it's nice to know exactly what four functions you use, and how you use them for developmental purposes. 

This is why I prefer socionics. You have the 16 types of people in the four different quadas. They all use the same functions, but don't all have types like Alpha I, Alpha II etc. You can learn how to develop those four functions healthily, without actually worrying so much about their stereotypical order as such. 

I know I am a Beta type (as I use Se, Fe, Ti and Ni as my top four functions), and I know I am an Extrovert, so that leaves me with ESTP and ENFJ. I am learning how to sensibly develop all four functions throughout my life, when to use them and the best tasks for them. They are my children, after all. I have to nurture them well, so they grow up to be big and strong. 




Barakiel said:


> Of course Fe can be cold, and Fi can be warm, stereotypes are really stupid, and there are immense layers to every single function. And you've actually grasped onto one of my major problems with self typing, that your Enneagram type can conflict with your MBTI type, and make you seem like another. Here's the thing, if you don't have outside influence to debate that with, how will you ever know? I, personally, can't self type myself, it's why I have so many threads on here. :laughing:


I didn't say you can't have outside influence. Obviously you need guidance and advice I said to take it with a pinch of salt, take on what people are saying BUT form your own type conclusions. If the majority is telling you that you are an xNTJ, you need to decide for yourself if you use Te or Ni as your top function. You need to do a little research on both, and find your best fit (in terms of MBTI) from your relation to the functions and your own attitudes. After all, you know yourself better than anyone else  

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


>


I feel bad for the penguin, but life goes on. I imagine he huddled together with other penguins and all was well in the world.

Ne, something like this?


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> I feel bad for the penguin, but life goes on. I imagine he huddled together with other penguins and all was well in the world.
> 
> Ne, something like this?


Either that or 






Remember how we were talking about steamrollers earlier?


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> I feel bad for the penguin, but life goes on. I imagine he huddled together with other penguins and all was well in the world.
> 
> Ne, something like this?


I've said before that Steins;Gate is the Ne show for me, hell, even the world-line theory of time travel seems like Ne. :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

KevinHeaven said:


> ProtoCosmos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crying as in forcing lacrimal fluids out of your eye glands or complaining?
> 
> 
> 
> warning this is a joke.
> 
> Ti: robot (or computer)
> Te: machine or steering wheel
> Fi: heart ( sun(is the light) or microphone)
> Fe: hands (moon(reflects light) or speaker)
> Se: eyes
> Si: camera lenses (or mirror or photographs)
> Ni: roots
> Ne: branches
> 
> 
> Guys I need more symbols cant come up with more!
Click to expand...

Bravo! *round of applause*


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> KevinHeaven said:
> 
> 
> 
> warning this is a joke.
> 
> Ti: robot (or computer)
> Te: machine or steering wheel
> Fi: heart ( sun(is the light) or microphone)
> Fe: hands (moon(reflects light) or speaker)
> Se: eyes
> Si: camera lenses (or mirror or photographs)
> Ni: roots
> Ne: branches
> 
> 
> Guys I need more symbols cant come up with more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Te: Robot that has no will of its own, follows orders to the letter.
> 
> Ti: Robot that asked itself "What am I?" and rejected inferior human "facts."
> 
> Fe: The nun praying for everyone's soul.
> 
> Fi: The guy who is always screaming internally.
> 
> Se: The rock that likes getting thrown at someone's face.
> 
> Si: The cupcake-baking grandma @Curiphant is always talking about.
> 
> Ni: God.
> 
> Ne: The scattering of angels meant to spread God's will. Most of them got sidetracked.
> 
> Not what you asked for, my apologies.
Click to expand...

Barovo x2! *flowers thrown on stage*


----------



## Barakiel

PsychElGambino said:


> I didn't say you can't have outside influence. Obviously you need guidance and advice I said to take it with a pinch of salt, take on what people are saying BUT form your own type conclusions. If the majority is telling you that you are an xNTJ, you need to decide for yourself if you use Te or Ni as your top function. You need to do a little research on both, and find your best fit (in terms of MBTI) from your relation to the functions and your own attitudes. After all, you know yourself better than anyone else


Fair enough, I'm just replying in that people naturally have a bias, and how they see themselves may not necessarily be how they are really. :wink: Aw, and you were doing so well with your points, you had to end it with that one. I can say this for certain, the bias people have is not respective to how they actually are. Base your conclusions on what other people think, in mass, and you'll be better off than if you had come to that conclusion yourself. :happy:


----------



## Future2Future

SugarPlum said:


> Barovo x2! *flowers thrown on stage*


If you started throwing flowers, you will probably throw tomatoes or Se-dom rocks at me when you'll get to mine. :th_Jttesur:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Fe is like bags of fluff, surrounding the pole. 

Fi is like the fluffy center, less volume than the Fe but three times as soft. 

Ti is the solid that mixes with the fluff. 

Te is the hardness (it has the texture of smooth, solid wood) surrounding the fluffy center. 

Ni is the metal core at the center of it. 

Ne is the bits of color and abnormally textured things that linger wherever they choose, with so,e escaping out and fluttering about in the space beyond. 

Se is the light on the outside. The plastic, the shine. 

Si is the porcelain paper at the center that exists in its fragility without breaking, branching out to touch everything in while staying wrapped up all the same.


----------



## Persephone Soul

ProtoCosmos said:


> SugarPlum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Barovo x2! *flowers thrown on stage*
> 
> 
> 
> If you started throwing flowers, you will probably throw tomatoes or Se-dom rocks at me when you'll get to mine.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. Yours were great. I really liked Ti and Si, and Fe made me giggle. 

Bravo x3! *throws flowers on stage WHILE giving a round of applause*


----------



## Future2Future

alittlebear said:


> Fe is like bags of fluff, surrounding the pole.
> 
> Fi is like the fluffy center, less volume than the Fe but three times as soft.
> 
> Ti is the solid that mixes with the fluff.
> 
> Te is the hardness (it has the texture of smooth, solid wood) surrounding the fluffy center.
> 
> Ni is the metal core at the center of it.
> 
> Ne is the bits of color and abnormally textured things that linger wherever they choose, with so,e escaping out and fluttering about in the space beyond.
> 
> Se is the light on the outside. The plastic, the shine.
> 
> Si is the porcelain paper at the center that exists in its fragility without breaking, branching out to touch everything in while staying wrapped up all the same.


The whole world is a stick of cotton candy :crazy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

alittlebear said:


> Fe is like bags of fluff, surrounding the pole.
> 
> Fi is like the fluffy center, less volume than the Fe but three times as soft.
> 
> Ti is the solid that mixes with the fluff.
> 
> Te is the hardness (it has the texture of smooth, solid wood) surrounding the fluffy center.
> 
> Ni is the metal core at the center of it.
> 
> Ne is the bits of color and abnormally textured things that linger wherever they choose, with so,e escaping out and fluttering about in the space beyond.
> 
> Se is the light on the outside. The plastic, the shine.
> 
> Si is the porcelain paper at the center that exists in its fragility without breaking, branching out to touch everything in while staying wrapped up all the same.



Okay. This. Wow.

*jaw drop* ...... *complete silence*... 

Then. .. *everyone on their feet in a crying uproar of applause*..... 

"BRAVO x's INFINITY! ENCORE!"


----------



## Future2Future

SugarPlum said:


> Okay. This. Wow.
> 
> *jaw drop* ...... *complete silence*...
> 
> Then. .. *everyone on their feet in a crying uproar of applause*.....
> 
> "BRAVO x's INFINITY! ENCORE!"


Next step is Genki-dama :th_cool:


----------



## Barakiel

alittlebear said:


> Fe is like bags of fluff, surrounding the pole.
> 
> Fi is like the fluffy center, less volume than the Fe but three times as soft.
> 
> Ti is the solid that mixes with the fluff.
> 
> Te is the hardness (it has the texture of smooth, solid wood) surrounding the fluffy center.
> 
> Ni is the metal core at the center of it.
> 
> Ne is the bits of color and abnormally textured things that linger wherever they choose, with so,e escaping out and fluttering about in the space beyond.
> 
> Se is the light on the outside. The plastic, the shine.
> 
> Si is the porcelain paper at the center that exists in its fragility without breaking, branching out to touch everything in while staying wrapped up all the same.


Yeah, I can see you're not good at poetry, you're just terrible at wordplay. :wink:

sarcasm, people. :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

@Princess Langwidere How do you request a name change?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> @Princess Langwidere How do you request a name change?


http://personalitycafe.com/support-suggestions/70904-name-changes.html


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> NO!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything can be measured and explained!


----------



## owlet

@_shinynotshiny_ Haha, don't worry, I was in bed :ghost3: My friend lent me a book and it's not bad, actually.



PsychElGambino said:


> What? You've lost me, *Shinealot*. Completely and utterly lost me out there in the cosmos


It's STICKING!





ProtoCosmos said:


>


Is that Pi? I still want to see that film.

( @_ElliCat_ I'm about halfway through my reply to you, because yesterday was too hot and I just kind of sat there for a while being tired and a bit ill and sad at the humidity.)

Also, discuss Ne. I've done a bit of a description for it, but I'm curious about people's interpretations.


----------



## Future2Future

laurie17 said:


> Is that Pi? I still want to see that film.


Yeah it is, I went with the intro because I was scared of spoiling. :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

alittlebear said:


> I was lazy until like Monday. Now rest is like my most cherished possession.
> 
> Edit: @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=168994" target="_blank">Greyhart</a></i></span>, could you give the name of your Enneagram vlogger? I want to see his 9 and 2 videos.


Did you mean him?







ProtoCosmos said:


>


----------



## orbit

Stelliferous said:


> @Greyhart well then I'll never find a mother for my kids.
> 
> Also I already work from home as a book writer. Everyone thinks I'm lazy.


You aren't :c

Well I assume


----------



## Future2Future

laurie17 said:


> also, discuss ne. I've done a bit of a description for it, but i'm curious about people's interpretations.





greyhart said:


>


Well, there it went... :th_woot:


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Also, discuss Ne. I've done a bit of a description for it, but I'm curious about people's interpretations.


I feel like most of my blog posts are about me and Ne at this point :dry:


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> I feel like most of my blog posts are about me and Ne at this point :dry:


Have you considered writing / making a blog named "Ne, Myself and I" ?


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> Have you considered writing / making a blog named "Ne, Myself and I" ?


Mine's called "Math, Space and Raccoons" which is pretty much the same.


----------



## Immolate

@Greyhart I feel a sense of loss. There is an emptiness. Spock.

Guys, what if I've been in the grip all this time and my life is a lie.

I'm going back to sleep.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> @Greyhart I feel a sense of loss. There is an emptiness. Spock.
> 
> Guys, what if I've been in the grip all this time and my life is a lie.
> 
> I'm going back to sleep.


Break the grip D8

That's depressing


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Break the grip D8
> 
> That's depressing



I would post a GIF but I am on my phone Curi you can't say things like that wow you soft elephant


----------



## Greyhart

Guys, look, it's a video about you!








shinynotshiny said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=168994" target="_blank">Greyhart</a></i></span> I feel a sense of loss. There is an emptiness. Spock.
> 
> Guys, what if I've been in the grip all this time and my life is a lie.
> 
> I'm going back to sleep.


Or you are fine and people just don't get you enough to classify.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Or you are fine and people just don't get you enough to classify.



Is that going to be the story of my life


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> ProtoCosmos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you considered writing / making a blog named "Ne, Myself and I" ?
> 
> 
> 
> Mine's called "Math, Space and Raccoons" which is pretty much the same.
Click to expand...

If you're a space born raccoon astrophysicist then it's close enough...

Sent from my Bluetooth combine harvester using Chaffatalk


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> If you're a space born raccoon astrophysicist then it's close enough...


Me precisely.


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> ProtoCosmos said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a space born raccoon astrophysicist then it's close enough...
> 
> 
> 
> Me precisely.
Click to expand...


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


>


----------



## Dangerose

tine said:


> Hey everyone, I'm back from 10 days in the field and no internet! What'd I miss?


What field?)


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> I have friends who dress up for meeting boyfriends (always the girls dressing up... must be a culture thing).


I think it is, and it makes me a bit sad to be honest. I really like it when guys show a bit of style. Not in a sexual way, I just feel happy I guess. Like when I went clothes shopping with my brother the last time I visited, and we found out he could wear some crazy awesome patterned shirts that most people would either be intimidated by or look ridiculous in. Finding those one or two things that are uniquely someone is exciting. Although I feel a bit weird because it's such a shallow thing? But I dunno. We're all visual creatures. And things can mean as much or as little as we want them to mean.



> I do get tired of hearing clothes being blamed. I think it's a cultural thing, where people are taught that if person wears X, they want Y, or that it's okay, for example, to go flirt with a girl if she's wearing what you consider to be revealing clothing (because that's subjective).


I think so too. And where do you draw the line with "revealing" anyway? I have a body type that looks better in something form-fitting than loose, and wearing pencil skirts draws lots of compliments from women. So if I wear a pencil skirt, it's because I know it suits me and makes me feel good. Not because I want men to whistle at my arse. If they want to look and are discrete about it I don't care, but it makes me really uncomfortable when people think I want comments or certain kind of attention simply for daring to be out in public. 

There's a difference between compliments on my body and compliments on my taste in aesthetics. 



> Oh no, sorry about the short and young-looking study thing! It was done in the US if that's better? Mostly attackers go for weak-looking people who aren't aware of their surroundings (hence the headphones), so they can catch them off guard.


Hmmm I do often listen to music in public, but not so loudly that I can't hear what's going on around me (I'm a bit paranoid anyway). I walk quickly, though, which I think makes me look purposeful and might detract from the air of vulnerability? 



> I mostly go for clothes I like the colour or pattern of. I like maroon a lot.


Colour and pattern is really important to me too. And texture! I need my clothes to be comfortable. I find a lot of cheap synthetics to be painful (too stiff or scratchy) and/or static-y. 



> As for the bolded bit, you did it again and said something I was going for but way better! :ghost3:


And here I was kicking myself for not being able to word it more gracefully! 



shinynotshiny said:


> Of course, I'm not immune to such feelings P) but I only like it to a point. Emphasis on appearance or physical attraction makes me uncomfortable.


Oh yeah, I get you. It makes me really uncomfortable too. I am heavy on the aesthetics but it's not a sexual thing at all. I just like pretty stuff.



> I agree, but I don't understand when it becomes an everyday thing, always considering how you'll come across to the opposite sex (or same sex, or both).


I'm totally oblivious to it most of the time. Makes for some awkward situations. Used to get accused of flirting a lot, which always made me go like 










... sorry for laughing at a joke I guess?


----------



## Immolate

Princess Langwidere said:


> (For the record, I don't think I dress like a cheap hooker. I do dress with the intention of attracting people though. Which I think...is probably wrong, actually, but not really odd or...not understandable, I think most people do that to some extent).


It's not _wrong_, just mind-boggling. My opinion, of course.


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Anatman! :ghost3: (Seriously, what I was getting at really is that to have an attraction to someone wearing certain clothes doesn't change the fact that, in reality, they are just flesh and blood beneath manufactured fabric. I'm very romantic.)












@tine Welcome back! I was wondering where you went and hoped you were alright!


----------



## orbit

Why so many lurkers


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> It's not _wrong_, just mind-boggling. My opinion, of course.


Well, I think it is wrong, because if my effect matched my intention I'd be forcing men into an existential crisis about their great desire for me and breaking hearts all over the place which is generally considered impolite. Unfortunately I have more of the "Adele, the singer" look (and name) than the...Megan Fox look? (sorry, I'm not up on whose considered what now but yeah)

I just don't understand what people dress for though. Their tea? (Ok, sometimes I specifically dress in a way so when I'm sitting at home alone I can feel cool, I feel a need to look so that if random painters suddenly rushed in my room at any minute they could get some nice thing like this, not some sitting cross-legged kneeling on a chair sort of pose:


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> Why so many lurkers


I think we used the word sex a lot


----------



## Future2Future

laurie17 said:


> But why does it matter what they want to project to others? Why does it matter to you? You aren't attracted to them, as you said, so they're obviously not trying to attract you. What's the issue? I'm so confused.


The issue here is the basic intent of tricking people by consciously tricking the subconscious of other people. 
Like "I know that if I dress that way today, at least 40 guys will come running towards me and stop ignoring me for once". 

Even if it's not directed towards me, it means a lot. Because to me it's as uneasy as seeing a group of dangerous scammers, kind of like having a scientology church in front of your home. Because I know that some people will get automatically tricked and it feels like shit for them because it's probably out of their control. :blushed:

Imagine if you were the only walking person in a place surrounded by paraplegics beggars and they all ran away from you when you turned your back and left a note that said "Thanks for that dollar bill, it'll get me a beer " , well that's how disappointing and very questionable it feels to me.:crazy:

Edit: I opened such a huge can of worms and I wish to fit them all back in and close it. :laughing:


----------



## Tad Cooper

Princess Langwidere said:


> What field?)


I was on a field work project in Bournemouth (UK) for the National Trust and RSPB for conservation purposes!



ElliCat said:


> @_tine_ Welcome back! I was wondering where you went and hoped you were alright!


Aw thanks, I forgot to mention I'd be away without internet! I'm fine apart from minor sunburn and a lot of scratches!


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> The issue here is the basic intent of tricking people by consciously tricking the subconscious of other people.
> Like "I know that if I dress that way today, at least 40 guys will come running towards me and stop ignoring me for once".
> 
> Even if it's not directed towards me, it means a lot. Because to me it's as uneasy as seeing a group of dangerous scammers, kind of like having a scientology church in front of your home. Because I know that some people will get automatically tricked and it feels like shit for them because it's probably out of their control. :blushed:
> 
> Imagine if you were the only walking person in a place surrounded by paraplegics beggars and they all ran away from you when you turned your back and left a note that said "Thanks for that dollar bill, it'll get me a beer " , well that's how disappointing and very questionable it feels to me.:crazy:


I'm struggling. I'm trying my best to hold back.


----------



## Dangerose

tine said:


> I was on a field work project in Bournemouth (UK) for the National Trust and RSPB for conservation purposes!
> 
> 
> Aw thanks, I forgot to mention I'd be away without internet! I'm fine apart from minor sunburn and a lot of scratches!


That sounds really cool! Hope you had a good experience)


----------



## orbit

ProtoCosmos said:


> The issue here is the basic intent of tricking people by consciously tricking the subconscious of other people.
> Like "I know that if I dress that way today, at least 40 guys will come running towards me and stop ignoring me for once".
> 
> Even if it's not directed towards me, it means a lot. Because to me it's as uneasy as seeing a group of dangerous scammers, kind of like having a scientology church in front of your home. Because I know that some people will get automatically tricked and it feels like shit for them because it's probably out of their control. :blushed:
> 
> Imagine if you were the only walking person in a place surrounded by paraplegics beggars and they all ran away from you when you turned your back and left a note that said "Thanks for that dollar bill, it'll get me a beer " , well that's how disappointing and very questionable it feels to me.:crazy:
> 
> Edit: I opened such a huge can of worms and I wish to fit them all back in and close it. :laughing:


Are you suggesting that women are stealing from men?
Their lack of control is on them. I can get irrationally angry and emotional and that lack of control is not the object of my frustration's fault but mine. They need to take responsibility of their own emotional state. The church has a right to exist in front of your house and if you don't like it, you can move. 

I still don't see what's wrong with a women wanting a man's attention. Or maybe they want to dress that way for a woman. So sexual attention in general. None of my business

Men are perfectly able to realize that when they see cleavage they can feel attraction and arousal. It's not a trick.


----------



## 68097

I dress modestly because I want to be treated with respect, and usually it works.


----------



## Immolate

Curiphant said:


> Are you suggesting that women are stealing from men?
> Their lack of control is on them. I can get irrationally angry and emotional and that lack of control is not the object of my frustration's fault but mine. They need to take responsibility of their own emotional state. The church has a right to exist in front of your house and if you don't like it, you can move.
> 
> I still don't see what's wrong with a women wanting a man's attention. Or maybe they want to dress that way for a woman. So sexual attention in general. None of my business
> 
> Men are perfectly able to realize that when they see cleavage they can feel attraction and arousal. It's not a trick.


You don't get it Curi they lose control of anything below the navel it's not their fault


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> Are you suggesting that women are stealing from men?
> Their lack of control is on them. I can get irrationally angry and emotional and that lack of control is not the object of my frustration's fault but mine. They need to take responsibility of their own emotional state. The church has a right to exist in front of your house and if you don't like it, you can move.
> 
> I still don't see what's wrong with a women wanting a man's attention. Or maybe they want to dress that way for a woman. So sexual attention in general. None of my business
> 
> Men are perfectly able to realize that when they see cleavage they can feel attraction and arousal. It's not a trick.


To be fair, I think there is blame/responsibility on both sides.
Women shouldn't dress provocatively. Men should control their desires.

I want to emphasize that I'm not going around in fishnet stockings or anything ridiculous. I'm just referring to things like somewhat transparent shirts/cleavage, normal sexy-ish things, I try to emphasize it and my intention is to attract, but I really don't want to give the idea that I'm like...yeah.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> You don't get it Curi they lose control of anything below the navel it's not their fault


They have my sympathy over such a tragic situation. Not being able to control their lives must be hard and oppressive.
@Princess Langwidere, why can't women dress provactively?


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> I think it is, and it makes me a bit sad to be honest. I really like it when guys show a bit of style. Not in a sexual way, I just feel happy I guess. Like when I went clothes shopping with my brother the last time I visited, and we found out he could wear some crazy awesome patterned shirts that most people would either be intimidated by or look ridiculous in. Finding those one or two things that are uniquely someone is exciting. Although I feel a bit weird because it's such a shallow thing? But I dunno. We're all visual creatures. And things can mean as much or as little as we want them to mean.
> 
> 
> I think so too. And where do you draw the line with "revealing" anyway? I have a body type that looks better in something form-fitting than loose, and wearing pencil skirts draws lots of compliments from women. So if I wear a pencil skirt, it's because I know it suits me and makes me feel good. Not because I want men to whistle at my arse. If they want to look and are discrete about it I don't care, but it makes me really uncomfortable when people think I want comments or certain kind of attention simply for daring to be out in public.
> 
> There's a difference between compliments on my body and compliments on my taste in aesthetics.
> 
> 
> Hmmm I do often listen to music in public, but not so loudly that I can't hear what's going on around me (I'm a bit paranoid anyway). I walk quickly, though, which I think makes me look purposeful and might detract from the air of vulnerability?
> 
> 
> Colour and pattern is really important to me too. And texture! I need my clothes to be comfortable. I find a lot of cheap synthetics to be painful (too stiff or scratchy) and/or static-y.
> 
> 
> And here I was kicking myself for not being able to word it more gracefully!
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, I get you. It makes me really uncomfortable too. I am heavy on the aesthetics but it's not a sexual thing at all. I just like pretty stuff.
> 
> 
> I'm totally oblivious to it most of the time. Makes for some awkward situations. Used to get accused of flirting a lot, which always made me go like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... sorry for laughing at a joke I guess?


Well, for many people clothes and makeup are a form of self-expression, so I'm all for it because it's interesting to see people express themselves. But I also think dressing up for a partner or something could be seen as 'making an effort' which is nice, like making a meal for them or setting up a table romantically (candles etc.). Part of the set. So, yeah, it would be nice if the guy dressed up too (I mean, that's funny coming from me).

Yes, I think it's kind of a difference between being complimentary and invasive in comments.

I think if you look like you're confidently going somewhere, you're less likely to be approached (too fast). I have the thing with music being low enough to hear around me, mostly so I can hear if cars are coming (I live in the land of many corners).

So much need for comfort. I had one jumper I loved because it was so comfortable, but it's too short for me now (very sad, very tall person here).

Yeah, I don't get flirting. Why does it exist?




ElliCat said:


>


I'm seriously ultimate romantic here though. I can dissect romance and put it on display in a museum. Beautiful.


----------



## owlet

ProtoCosmos said:


> The issue here is the basic intent of tricking people by consciously tricking the subconscious of other people.
> Like "I know that if I dress that way today, at least 40 guys will come running towards me and stop ignoring me for once".
> 
> Even if it's not directed towards me, it means a lot. Because to me it's as uneasy as seeing a group of dangerous scammers, kind of like having a scientology church in front of your home. Because I know that some people will get automatically tricked and it feels like shit for them because it's probably out of their control. :blushed:
> 
> Imagine if you were the only walking person in a place surrounded by paraplegics beggars and they all ran away from you when you turned your back and left a note that said "Thanks for that dollar bill, it'll get me a beer " , well that's how disappointing and very questionable it feels to me.:crazy:
> 
> Edit: I opened such a huge can of worms and I wish to fit them all back in and close it. :laughing:


I'd be all 'Okay, your choice to spend it on beer rather than food' and walk on.

It's not brainwashing... humans like to go on about how they have higher cognitive abilities, yet they can't deal with a woman in a revealing dress. If they can't control themselves, too bad for them.

Scientology hasn't harmed anyone, as far as I know? No more than other establishments, at least.


----------



## Dangerose

Curiphant said:


> @Princess Langwidere, why can't women dress provactively?


Well...they can, and I think in some ways it's good because I kinda like the 'use your beauty as a weapon to get ahead' philosophy.
But I think...and this is a religious perspective (which I don't follow so you know), that we should try not to lead other people into temptation, since we should all be in the business of helping each other be better people, so dressing provocatively is similar to eating chocolate in front of someone on a rigorous diet or such.


----------



## Darkbloom

Hey you guys,I'm back!!!(been traveling,kinda)

So much change, @Pressed Flowers(gonna get to your enneagram soon!) @Princess Langwidere love the new usernames!

Anyway, Princess, I can relate to that dressing for non-existent people thing lol, but more like dressing for "ocassion", for example when I was younger,around 10 and watched the miss universe thing I had to have nice hair and clothes because I had to somehow fit in,be good enough for that world, and I still do similar things.
But I mostly dress "for" people,I say "for" because no one is forcing me, I do it because I feel like that's my thing, I wear certain clothes and people have certain reactions to my clothes, that's just how it is. I wear X because I know guys will feel certain way if I do and that's just...I don't know how to explain it lol, I call it Fe 2-ness in my head XD
I understand how it could be seen as wrong in some ways, but I also feel like you should use what you have,because if you won't,others still will.
Btw I am NOT slutty or anything similar, perhaps that makes it worse in a way,but...yeah lol


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> Mentioning Johnny Cash's version always pisses off NIN fans.
> 
> It's hilarious.


I posted it because I like it, also because Cash's version has a ton of feels :dry:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> If people want to use their sexuality to gain favor, let them, they'll only stop when they come across someone they can't manipulate. :wink: I just feel like you getting pissy over being manipulated through people abusing the influences their body has on you is ridiculous, but hey, I've been wrong before.


That's what I'm not understanding.

People have the right to do what they want, but ew body manipulation!

If you really didn't care, it wouldn't bother you. 

Personally I'm only bothered by it if exploitation ensues, as well as the standard that one must project themselves that way in order to be attractive. But if people have fun getting ogled in a short, tight dress in a club? *shrug*


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> That's what I'm not understanding.
> 
> People have the right to do what they want, but ew body manipulation!
> 
> If you really didn't care, it wouldn't bother you.
> 
> Personally I'm only bothered by it if exploitation ensues, as well as the standard that one must project themselves that way in order to be attractive. But if people have fun getting ogled in a short, tight dress in a club? *shrug*


I've lost interest in getting angry over being manipulated, myself, it's more of a game to me, now; can you protect yourself from all fronts while returning the manipulations each time? :laughing:

Plus, there is the notion that if you ban something, people will go out and do it all the more, just because now it's forbidden. If people want to dress fancy, that's their choice, and you can either let yourself be affected by it, or you can restrain yourself, there are always diverging choices here.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Plus, there is the notion that if you ban something, people will go out and do it all the more, just because now it's forbidden. If people want to dress fancy, that's their choice, and you can either let yourself be affected by it, or you can restrain yourself, there are always diverging choices here.


YES

Few people understand this.

Forbidden fruit. When I hear people claim alcohol should be illegal, I conclude they must have skipped the prohibition lesson in history class.


----------



## Persephone Soul

I am just a big fat slut, really. I love sexual attention. I love to give sexual attention. 

But, I personally know how to keep my sexual drive/lust/desires etc, to myself... in the presence of my man. Before my husband, I stayed in the lane of the single men. Girl code.

So, keep your slutiness to yourself. As in, don't come around my kids like that. And most definitely don't try and give nor get any of that attention from MY man. Seriously, it won't be pretty. Thankfully, my husband knows how to deal with the immature cry for attention with other females... or else, he would be at the mercy of my wrath as well. 

otherwise, "slut on"...


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> YES
> 
> Few people understand this.
> 
> Forbidden fruit. When I hear people claim alcohol should be legal, I conclude they must have skipped the prohibition lesson in history class.


You could make an argument as that's why black dresses are more attractive than white, we're used to white, we grow a familiarity with it, then black comes over and screws with our senses. :wink:

Isn't alcohol already legal for people over 18? Perhaps it's values dissonance or something.  But it's why I don't find school uniforms to be that important, people are going to cheat at it anyway.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> You could make an argument as that's why black dresses are more attractive than white, we're used to white, we grow a familiarity with it, then black comes over and screws with our senses. :wink:
> 
> Isn't alcohol already legal for people over 18? Perhaps it's values dissonance or something.  But it's why I don't find school uniforms to be that important, people are going to cheat at it anyway.


Typo. I meant illegal.

But yes, for the most part I agree... aside from the school uniform thing but that's a different conversation to be had.


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> Typo. I meant illegal.
> 
> But yes, for the most part I agree... aside from the school uniform thing but that's a different conversation to be had.[


Oh... wait, what? Well, that's rather stupid, typical knee jerk reaction. Oh hey, alcohol causes road deaths, let's ban alcohol. :frustrating: Mitigation, people, not outright banning.

Haha, few people agree with me on that front, but awesome, one specific time where I haven't pissed everyone off. :laughing:


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> If people want to use their sexuality to gain favor, let them, they'll only stop when they come across someone they can't manipulate. :wink: I just feel like you getting pissy over being manipulated through people abusing the influences their body has on you is ridiculous, but hey, I've been wrong before.


It has more to do with me being pretty much paranoid about other people taking advantage of me unknowingly, I keep distances with everybody and evaluate them instead until I guess they're okay. I'm not being selfish but I hate being taken advantage of and I have high standards when it comes to meeting people. :exterminate: 

Bodies themselves, or any physical entity have little to no influence on me but I always analyse overall behaviour of other people partly through their appearance to be sure I'm not stepping into some kind of trap or stupid game, clothes are an important part of the clues to "solving" people's behaviour. 

And I notice a lot of these weird patterns or impressions of people being "inhuman robots" emerging in the outside world and I can't cope with them cause I can't "turn that thing it off" except when I become selfless at times and that only happens when I'm having fun with close friends / family or whatever that has nothing to do with strangers, because it's really been part of me since I was a kid.
I never live outside of my head, basically. (I'd be glad to know what function is behind all of this )

If I appear stupid or random or nonsensical or over analytical or [insert insulting adjective here] it all boils down to your impressions, I can't put myself in the shoes of anybody else when it deals with me other than knowing how dumb I could be at times. :suspicion:

Here's a funny song to soften the blow


----------



## Immolate

@ProtoCosmos Ah, I see. You trust no one. I understand this.


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> @ProtoCosmos Ah, I see. You trust no one. I understand this.


Wow, you summed it up in four words :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

First of all, welcome back @tine and @Living dead !

Oh dear this name change thing is going to get confusing. I like the new names though. Can we still call you Bear, @Pressed Flowers ? 



Pressed Flowers said:


> I'm suddenly wanting _clothes_. I want to look pretty. I walk down the aisles at stores and I just... want want want so much. It's so nasty to me. My mom thinks it's good, like I'm finally caring about my image, but I'm like... I need a job to pay for all this crap I'm suddenly style lusting for.
> 
> When I was a kid though, I let my mom dress me up in whatever. Even in high school I wasn't very assertive about my unique style. I guess it's good my style is kicking in now so I can become something more physically than My Mother's Bud.


It hurts so much to not have money to buy clothes. I get frustrated because how I often have to dress now is not "me". It is not "my style".

Haha I got assertive with fashion pretty early on, but it probably helps that I wasn't interesting in dressing like I belonged on any kind of scene. I just liked what I liked. And being the youngest child probably helped too. The fights had already been fought before and my mother lacked the energy to fight them again.



hoopla said:


> Great article:
> 
> Daria & Fashion: A Few Of My Favorite Things


Great article, thanks for sharing! I love both fashion and Daria. What a great show.



Princess Langwidere said:


> I literally only wear skirts. When I was a kid I only wore skirts and dresses. Then briefly in middle school I wanted to fit in or something I wore only jeans and T-shirts. It looked terrifble, pretty soon I was back to skirts and dresses. It's just more comfortable and flattering than any other option.


For about two years in college I literally never wore pants. Similar deal: dresses and skirts were more flattering and honestly I found them more comfortable. My friends thought it was strange and at one point a friend declared that if I didn't buy myself a pair of jeans then she was going to buy a pair before me because she couldn't stand seeing me freeze in the winter. I finally found a couple of pairs of jeans that suited me and so I mix it up, but basically if they aren't designer jeans they do nothing for me (luckily I am good at finding deals).



Greyhart said:


> Because clothes are image. There's a Russian idiom "You are greeted by your clothing". The second part is "But send off by your smarts" but greeting part is meaningful as well. This has a point. I have no personal "style" to begin with - I used to wear sporty clothes because they were comfy but mostly because it was what mother bought me - I didn't care. I still don't see my clothing as personal - it's partially based on stuff I picked on fashion blogs, partially made out of pieces that I chose just for reactions they could possibly draw out of people. Like my bright pink flip phone and a Barbie wallet - I know they bring out snickers out of people which amuses me. When choosing outfit I think of a). how will I look in it b). how will others see me. That's all that maters. Otherwise I'd run around naked but alas, society forbids. Being shapeshifter would be damn handy, though.


I LOVE that idiom.

Shapeshifting is very high on my list of desired superpowers.



ElliCat said:


> I still get nervous speaking in front of people! I'm the only native English speaker in my class and everyone else is all "hurrrr why are you even nervous" when we have presentations but at least if they stuff up it's perfectly reasonable! I have no excuse because I've been speaking this language for as long as I've been able to talk. :confusion:


I definitely have to get myself in the right mindset/mood before speaking. And don't ask me to do anything with my hands. I remember in junior high we had to do a demonstrative/instructional speech. I made cookies and my hands shook so much that I knocked a spoon of the table. It was embarassing.



> Ooooh, protective! Yeah I'm pretty sure my mother would lock me in a basement if I ever told her I wanted to go to an Arabic-speaking country. She's barely okay with me living in another boringly safe first world country, haha.
> 
> Are there a lot of jobs for Arabic speakers over there? I've heard that Mandarin Chinese is a great language to learn, but it's way too difficult for me.


Yeah my mom is a worrywort. I felt it necessary to conceal the fact that I was traveling alone in Europe until the trip was over.

Well it isn't as useful in all parts of the country, but Washington DC is so international* that I see it listed under qualifications/desired skills on job postings quite often. And I live near most embassies too. Think of how many embassies I could apply to work at if I knew arabic!

*nearly every time I leave the house I hear at _least_ one language used in conversation that isn't English or Spanish. It is great fun.



> Yeah, I agree, if I were to have a cat it would be like my child, and I want to do the right thing by it.
> 
> I'll probably try to squish my cluckiness by buying some plants to put on my windowsill. I'll take any living creature I can at this point. (Although having some green around me would make me happier anyway. That's the only thing I dislike about living in an apartment - no garden!)


Yes! Some green! get some life around! There have been studies showing that it improves mood.



> Yes!!! I HATE that attitude! NO, the way "freedom of speech" works is that you're free to state your opinion and I'm free to tell you that your opinion makes you an arsehole.


Exactly.



> (I did hear there was a heatwave in London? Is it across the whole country now? I hope you guys are alright. Drink plenty of water!)


I happened to catch the weather forecast for London the other day and I saw a projected high of 93F! I immediately : "NOOOO they don't know how to deal with that! They aren't acclimated to it!" I'm not at all surprised you felt ill @laurie17, I hope you feel better today!



> I approach style in more of a "work with what you've got" mixed with "express what's on the inside", so I don't really pay attention to fashion magazines or trends or anything like that. I seem to have a bit of an eye for colour and harmony (maybe all the years of art helped?) but I also learned a lot by reading different kinds of theories online. I dunno. It's a bit of a geek thing for me. I want to take people out and dress them, and it worked with my younger brother, who apparently wants to look good but isn't quite sure how to go about it. My mother and sisters are a nightmare though. I get frustrated when they declare something looks good on them when it's totally wrong for them, haha. I just try to gently guide them in the right direction and shower them with compliments when they wear something that looks good. Heh.


My approach to fashion is the same.



laurie17 said:


> Empathy is a weird thing. I can get very upset for a long time over just thinking about what someone who suffered must have felt like...


Oh man, me too. And then people ask me what is wrong and I think: "How can I explain...."



Princess Langwidere said:


> I consider dressing reasonably a sign of respect. I do judge people who wear sweatpants in public (no offense intended to anyone, you are in your rights to judge me as well). It's just saying "The world is my armchair". It's nicer to have an attitude of 'hey world I'm looking my best for you'. Doesn't apply to the fashion situation but I do believe in a minimum basic 'dress code' for public. Even on a small budget you can get a small selection of basic decent clothes.
> (This isn't directed at anyone on the thread. It's just another one of my grudges against society. Wear clothes, people. Don't look like trash cans.)


I sort of feel the same regarding respect (both for others and for oneself), but I mostly apply it to particular situations. It drove me nuts when people showed up to do class presentations or for class debates looking like they just rolled out of bed. It struck me as disrespectful. I take a "wear what you want" approach to when people are just going about their day, but if you are presenting something, make some sort of effort to look like you take your audience and yourself seriously.



laurie17 said:


> Only nasty people do that, so if they insulted someone, I would advise that person to ignore them or laugh at them and how pitiful their lives must be to make someone else feel bad about themselves. Any attacker would do it to person B if not person A, regardless of how they were dressed. Actually, a study found that it was mostly shorter, younger-looking girls who walked in a particular way and usually wore headphones were the most likely to be attacked. It's about how intimidating/strong etc. you look and how you hold yourself, mostly.


Shorter, younger-looking girls wearing headphones. Uh-oh! 

I do make an effort to walk purposefully and make it clear to someone that I see them. I heard that is important.



ElliCat said:


> I think it is, and it makes me a bit sad to be honest. I really like it when guys show a bit of style. Not in a sexual way, I just feel happy I guess. Like when I went clothes shopping with my brother the last time I visited, and we found out he could wear some crazy awesome patterned shirts that most people would either be intimidated by or look ridiculous in. Finding those one or two things that are uniquely someone is exciting. Although I feel a bit weird because it's such a shallow thing? But I dunno. We're all visual creatures. And things can mean as much or as little as we want them to mean.


I loooove it when guys make an effort. When they have some sense of style. They don't even need to dress stylishly all of the time, but it is nice when it happens (and attractive).



> I think so too. And where do you draw the line with "revealing" anyway? I have a body type that looks better in something form-fitting than loose, and wearing pencil skirts draws lots of compliments from women. So if I wear a pencil skirt, it's because I know it suits me and makes me feel good. Not because I want men to whistle at my arse. If they want to look and are discrete about it I don't care, but it makes me really uncomfortable when people think I want comments or certain kind of attention simply for daring to be out in public.
> 
> There's a difference between compliments on my body and compliments on my taste in aesthetics.


Exactly! One day this guy rode by me on a bike and told me: "Nice dress!" And his tone wasn't sarcastic or gross. It made me so happy. I love being complimented on my taste.



> Colour and pattern is really important to me too. And texture! I need my clothes to be comfortable. I find a lot of cheap synthetics to be painful (too stiff or scratchy) and/or static-y.


YES. Color Pattern Texture! Part of the reason why my wardrobe is so depleted is I really resist buying cheap quality clothing. 

I hate unpleasant fabric. And if I know that it is going to fray or get stretched out easily…what is the point? seems wasteful.



> I'm totally oblivious to it most of the time. Makes for some awkward situations. Used to get accused of flirting a lot, which always made me go like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... sorry for laughing at a joke I guess?


I hate when I accidentally flirt. Led to an awkward situation with one of my best guy friends. Sigh.



tine said:


> I was on a field work project in Bournemouth (UK) for the National Trust and RSPB for conservation purposes!


Wow! That sounds like interesting (and important) work!



hoopla said:


> I only hope that one day, in the future, fashion is about self expression and not making you feel bad about yourself in order to profit on low self esteem.


AMEN. (actually Amen to your entire speech 



Pressed Flowers said:


> Like, I don't want sex. That's what it means to me. I just sort of go "I know" at the thought. I mean, there were times in high school where I contemplated if sex was just like a joke or something, because it naturally seems so... repulsive to me. People want that? What?
> 
> That said, I am _heteroromantic_. I am romantically attracted to people of the opposite gender. As I've said here, sometimes I wish I was aromantic - less pettiness - but I guess romantic attraction makes life interesting.


It does seem like it would be hard to be both asexual and aromatic, but I do have a friend who is asexual but in a heteroromantic relationship (I'm not sure if she is heteroromantic or biromantic or panromantic, but she is dating a guy). I think such relationships are more and more possible as we get a better understanding about gender and sexuality.

—————

@Princess Langwidere @Living dead If dressing sexy makes you feel good, go for it. Your words remind me a bit of a dear friend of mine. She loved to say:






Not my approach, but I can appreciate it! 



Barakiel said:


> You could make an argument as that's why black dresses are more attractive than white, we're used to white, we grow a familiarity with it, then black comes over and screws with our senses. :wink:
> 
> Isn't alcohol already legal for people over 18? Perhaps it's values dissonance or something.  But it's why I don't find school uniforms to be that important, people are going to cheat at it anyway.


21 in the states for some dumb reason.

——————

My rules for sexual morality:

1. Don't cheat
2. Consent is mandatory (which also means no pressuring or taking advantage of intoxication!)
3. Be honest

—————

Finally: I love both versions of "Hurt" @shinynotshiny @hoopla


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@fair phantom Of course you can still call me Bear! 

I'm actually resenting this name a little, ha. It's so delicate. alittlebear didn't represent me at all, but it came to represent me because it didn't represent me? If that makes any sense, which... It's odd so it probably doesn't. 

I'll probably change back in a month, ha  

But yeah, Bear is perfectly fine


----------



## Future2Future

Pressed Flowers said:


> @fair phantom Of course you can still call me Bear!
> 
> I'm actually resenting this name a little, ha. It's so delicate. alittlebear didn't represent me at all, but it came to represent me because it didn't represent me? If that makes any sense, which... It's odd so it probably doesn't.
> 
> I'll probably change back in a month, ha
> 
> But yeah, Bear is perfectly fine


Go with Flower Bear, it's like a beautiful cross between flower beds and bear :kitteh:


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> @fair phantom Of course you can still call me Bear!
> 
> I'm actually resenting this name a little, ha. It's so delicate. alittlebear didn't represent me at all, but it came to represent me because it didn't represent me? If that makes any sense, which... It's odd so it probably doesn't.
> 
> I'll probably change back in a month, ha
> 
> But yeah, Bear is perfectly fine


So you're not delicate? I always assumed the opposite. :laughing:

Still don't know whether to change mine or not, I don't have too much of an attachment to my current one, but I literally can't think of any others. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> So you're not delicate? I always assumed the opposite. :laughing:
> 
> Still don't know whether to change mine or not, I don't have too much of an attachment to my current one, but I literally can't think of any others. :wink:


I'm outwardly delicate enough without a username like this! Telephone Pole would be better for my image


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> So you're not delicate? I always assumed the opposite. :laughing:
> 
> Still don't know whether to change mine or not, I don't have too much of an attachment to my current one, but I literally can't think of any others. :wink:


Bakariel - Zachary = Ezekiel :th_woot:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> Finally: I love both versions of "Hurt" @_shinynotshiny_ @_hoopla_


Same, although Cash's hits me harder. It's the video.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I'm outwardly delicate enough without a username like this! Telephone Pole would be better for my image


Well, it does give you a duality that your other name didn't, pressured, but still living. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> Bakariel - Zachary = Ezekiel :th_woot:


I don't know whether to be disappointed that you didn't spell Barakiel right while _quoting_ me, or bemused that I'll have another angel name. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

OvalCat said:


> You are not a feeler bro. Not a feeler.
> 
> My angst will eventually penetrate into your soul


I have no soul.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I have no soul.












Don't be Squidward.


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> I have no soul.


I read that in Spock's voice...


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> If you could name yourself after something out of a video game or a song, what would it be?
> Zadoka?
> Zakemi ?
> Magiel ?
> Bullymong ?:crazy:


Hey, bullymong's from Borderlands 2. :wink: As for what I'd name myself if I could, mostly after specific characters, no one here really knows them. :laughing:


----------



## Dragheart Luard

About weird stuff, now some people think that I'm a Ti type, and that was said in a passive aggresive way. Gotta love how they can't say that shit to me lol


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Hey, bullymong's from Borderlands 2. :wink: As for what I'd name myself if I could, mostly after specific characters, no one here really knows them. :laughing:



Stringer Bell ? :laughing:


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> About weird stuff, now some people think that I'm a Ti type, and that was said in a passive aggresive way. Gotta love how they can't say that shit to me lol


Ti?

Ti.


----------



## Immolate

OvalCat said:


> Don't be Squidward.


He is a kindred spirit.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> Ti?
> 
> Ti.


Yep, but that was at least stated by someone that clearly got the theory wrong, and someone thanked that post pff


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> Yep, but that was at least stated by someone that clearly got the theory wrong, *and someone thanked that post pff*


That's always annoying.


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> He is a kindred spirit.


But he wouldn't play the clarinet in space... :suspicion:


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Ti?
> 
> Ti.


a drink with jam and breeeaaaad.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

shinynotshiny said:


> That's always annoying.


Yep, that kind of passive-aggresive stuff grates me.


----------



## Immolate

Blue Flare said:


> Yep, that kind of passive-aggresive stuff grates me.


Yes, I know it well by now.


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


> a drink with jam and breeeaaaad.


:toast: :strawberry:


----------



## Future2Future

fair phantom said:


> a drink with jam and breeeaaaad.


Fe Fi Fo Fum


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> Fe Fi Fo Fum







Now the youtubing will never end. I'll probably watch 20 cat videos next.


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> Stringer Bell ? :laughing:


Where do you come up with this stuff. :wink:


----------



## Future2Future

shinynotshiny said:


> Now the youtubing will never end. I'll probably watch 20 cat videos next.


Cat videos used to be good until I discovered the power of turtles. They look funnier IRL than in TMNT.


----------



## Immolate

ProtoCosmos said:


> Cat videos used to be good until I discovered the power of turtles. They look funnier IRL than in TMNT.


That was so cute my heart clenched.

Also I just like cats.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> Now the youtubing will never end. I'll probably watch 20 cat videos next.


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Where do you come up with this stuff. :wink:


it's Ne :crazy:
Ne-ntendo :crazy:
Bingo :crazy:
Flamingo :crazy:
Ingo that bastard with the horse from OOT :crazy:
I am grOOT :crazy:


----------



## Immolate

fair phantom said:


>


uffer:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> For about two years in college I literally never wore pants. Similar deal: dresses and skirts were more flattering and honestly I found them more comfortable. My friends thought it was strange and at one point a friend declared that if I didn't buy myself a pair of jeans then she was going to buy a pair before me because she couldn't stand seeing me freeze in the winter. I finally found a couple of pairs of jeans that suited me and so I mix it up, but basically if they aren't designer jeans they do nothing for me (luckily I am good at finding deals).


Honestly I've never really understood dresses = cold. 1. Tights and nylons and exist 2. My legs just aren't that fragile.
Actually, I don't understand warm clothing altogether. It's just...is being cold really worse than living in a suffocating tent of fluff? The only reason I wear warm clothes at all is so I won't have to be answering 'are you cold?' all the time. No, I'm not. 

But wearing skirts is one of those things I don't think about until someone points it out. Whenever I wear pants (i.e. jeans or the like) everyone goes all "OMG Langwidere I didn't even know you owned pants this is like stepping into a surreal alternate universe" so I've been trying to wear them more so I don't have to deal with that either.

I also always wear heels, again, they're just more comfortable for me, I have high arches and imo they look nicer and don't fall off my feet every time I take a step. I don't even notice other people's shoes or mine that much so I'm always shocked with the multitude of people who have me pegged as 'the heel girl' and have some sort of out-of-body experience when they see me wearing flats. I don't really understand why my footwear patterns are being tracked by so many other people but it's really annoying.

Sorry, got off track by how many people are annoying about normal clothing choices.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Honestly I've never really understood dresses = cold. 1. Tights and nylons and exist 2. My legs just aren't that fragile.
> Actually, I don't understand warm clothing altogether. It's just...is being cold really worse than living in a suffocating tent of fluff? The only reason I wear warm clothes at all is so I won't have to be answering 'are you cold?' all the time. No, I'm not.


I generally find tights are warmer than jeans.

Judging by your comment on warm clothes though, I'm guessing I grew up and went to college somewhere much colder than where you did. Frostbite isn't pretty. Neither are blue hands and feet. Or tripping because you lost all feeling in your feet.


----------



## Future2Future

Princess Langwidere said:


> I also always wear heels [...] I don't really understand why my footwear patterns are being tracked by so many other people but it's really annoying.


It's probably because they're looking at thousands of years of evolution being ruined by a tiny pair of stilts. :exterminate:


----------



## fair phantom

ProtoCosmos said:


> It's probably because they're looking at thousands of years of evolution being ruined by a tiny pair of stilts. :exterminate:


a low heel is often better than flats.

see also Which Shoes Are The Worst For Your Feet? (INFOGRAPHIC)

I have a scar on my forehead from falling down stairs. everyone assumed it was because i was wearing heels as usual. I was wearing flats. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> I generally find tights are warmer than jeans.
> 
> Judging by your comment on warm clothes though, I'm guessing I grew up and went to college somewhere much colder than where you did. Frostbite isn't pretty.


Probably, but I've lived in some cold places. I'm used to snow and ice. My current town is very middling in temperature (actually...right now it's hot. Everyone's complaining. I'm not. 100 degrees is _exactly_ what I want. Maybe I'm just good at temperatures. I grew up in Flagstaff, AZ -- it's not a hot place.


----------



## Future2Future

fair phantom said:


> a low heel is often better than flats.
> 
> see also Which Shoes Are The Worst For Your Feet? (INFOGRAPHIC)
> 
> I have a scar on my forehead from falling down stairs. everyone assumed it was because i was wearing heels as usual. Actually I was wearing flats. :laughing:


Converse are the best in every way because they look cool, they're not dangerous and unlike running sneakers, they don't make you look like a cheap athlete :eagerness:


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Probably, but I've lived in some cold places. I'm used to snow and ice. My current town is very middling in temperature (actually...right now it's hot. Everyone's complaining. I'm not. 100 degrees is _exactly_ what I want. Maybe I'm just good at temperatures. I grew up in Flagstaff, AZ -- it's not a hot place.


I grew up in Northeast Ohio. Snowbelt. 

I haaaate the heat. I envy your ability to adjust )



ProtoCosmos said:


> Converse are the best in every way because they look cool, they're not dangerous and unlike running sneakers, they don't make you look like a cheap athlete :eagerness:


I have a pair of cute pale neural-pink shoes that are similar to laceless converses. They are great for hiking or walking all day. (my city is not made for heels, alas, so much unevenness).


----------



## Future2Future

fair phantom said:


> I grew up in Northeast Ohio. Snowbelt.
> 
> I haaaate the heat. I envy your ability to adjust )
> 
> 
> 
> I have a pair of cute pale neural-pink shoes that are similar to laceless converses. They are great for hiking or walking all day. (my city is not made for heels, alas, so much unevenness).


I have about three pairs of Converse (both leather and textile), and they work for everything ! :smile: 
They really are all purpose, especially the leather ones because they handle snow pretty well.


BTW, what time is it over there? It's 5:18 AM over here and I feel like my brain is melting and farting at the same time. 
It probably needs a new antidiarrhoeal catalytic converter anyway... It's about 27°C outside, and I can't even sleep !


----------



## Rebel Sheep

I live in Calgary aka the city with the world's shittiest weather. One day its 32 degrees Celcius (90 degrees F for you non-metric people :dry: ) and then the next day we get hail. The weather here is utterly inconsistent and it's maddening.


----------



## Future2Future

Avalnoah said:


> I live in Calgary aka the city with the world's shittiest weather. One day its 32 degrees Celcius (90 degrees F for you non-metric people :dry: ) and then the next day we get hail. The weather here is utterly inconsistent and its maddening


At least you have *cold* weather over there. I feel like stuck in a kiln at 5 AM and it's also preventing me from sleeping :dry:


----------



## fair phantom

ProtoCosmos said:


> I have about three pairs of Converse (both leather and textile), and they work for everything ! :smile:
> They really are all purpose, especially the leather ones because they handle snow pretty well.
> 
> 
> BTW, what time is it over there? It's 5:18 AM over here and I feel like my brain is melting and farting at the same time.
> It probably needs a new antidiarrhoeal catalytic converter anyway... It's about 27°C outside, and I can't even sleep !


11:41 PM here. I'm sorry. I hate when it is too hot to sleep.


----------



## Persephone Soul

-It's been 95-105'ish here in Cali. Crazy weather here too. Sprinkled today. 

-Love my converse and flip flops. My husband LOATHES my ballet flats, but heels hurt my feet. I go barefoot as much as possible (around the house). I love heels but they dont love me 

- another random link, for stereotypical fun 
http://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-pri...ch-myers-briggs-personality-type-on-facebook/


----------



## Persephone Soul

PS... (((Bear, Oswin etc.. ))) for your name change... how long did it take from the time you messaged them, to the time it was changed?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

SugarPlum said:


> PS... (((Bear, Oswin etc.. ))) for your name change... how long did it take from the time you messaged them, to the time it was changed?


Less than half a day ^^


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Is asserting your political beliefs supposed to be painful.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Is asserting your political beliefs supposed to be painful.


... Not to my knowledge, no.


----------



## Dangerose

(I can't be on right now but I wanted to pose a question)
Consistent disconnect I have with my (ISTJ?) mother:
We're discussing politics or morals. I'm trying to talk about the idea or the ideal, _what is right_ in a situation. Or...not in a situation. She's always talking about the practical application. I wondered if this could be indicative of my having Ni? or a Te vs Fe difference?
It's just like, it leads to this weird thing where...she thinks I'm saying something I'm not. This happens all the time. We were talking about the Confederate flag. I seriously have no opinion on it, no knowledge. I think it should probably be avoided but -- what I was trying to talk about was, hypothetically, the identity of the South and what resonance it has in the culture. And she was just saying, it's a racist symbol and should be taken down. And I don't necessarily disagree with that conclusion -- I don't have a strong opinion nor does my opinion matter but I would probably agree...but I wasn't at all trying to talk about whether it is viewed as a racist symbol, I was trying to establish what it actually represents to the South. 

Which...this is a bad example, but it happens all the time. Like...we're talking about wealth distribution. We both basically agree on this topic. No need to discuss further. Poor people should be helped. Woo. But I'm trying to say 'this is how society should work' and figure that out...I was saying the other day, there's an element of truth to what people say when they are talking about how people shouldn't depend on the government, but I think it's misdirected, and I'm trying to explain or discuss this viewpoint, but she's always jumping ahead to 'so they shouldn't say that' but...I'm not trying to talk about that, I'm trying to talk about that viewpoint, I'm trying to say how society should work, not how it does, I want to figure out the ideal way -- from both directions -- before applying it to real life, otherwise I feel really...suffocated, like I'm being rushed to a decision that's not being fully polished.

Does that make sense? Like, it really is a miscommunication...my mom and I actually agree on most things...but I feel like the things I say are often misinterpreted, even when I've put them really well...like something's being lost in translation (not just for my mother, for a lot of people). I feel like if I had a very common type like ESFJ 2 people would sometimes know what I was trying to talk about. I say something, and I know what I mean, and it's the best way it could be said -- but people still don't know what I mean and they take it to mean I mean things I don't.

Does that make sense? I'm just rethinking.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Pressed Flowers said:


> Is asserting your political beliefs supposed to be painful.


 Is this a question? Lol. If so, uh, YEAH. Unfortunately, it IS painful. Although, maybe it isn't supposed to be...

I actually just took this interesting test like 20 mins ago...
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test


----------



## fair phantom

Pressed Flowers said:


> Is asserting your political beliefs supposed to be painful.


In a perfect world, no, but I find it can be when I have to do it with certain people. :ssad:


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> (I can't be on right now but I wanted to pose a question)
> Consistent disconnect I have with my (ISTJ?) mother:
> We're discussing politics or morals. I'm trying to talk about the idea or the ideal, _what is right_ in a situation. Or...not in a situation. She's always talking about the practical application. I wondered if this could be indicative of my having Ni? or a Te vs Fe difference?
> It's just like, it leads to this weird thing where...she thinks I'm saying something I'm not. This happens all the time. We were talking about the Confederate flag. I seriously have no opinion on it, no knowledge. I think it should probably be avoided but -- what I was trying to talk about was, hypothetically, the identity of the South and what resonance it has in the culture. And she was just saying, it's a racist symbol and should be taken down. And I don't necessarily disagree with that conclusion -- I don't have a strong opinion nor does my opinion matter but I would probably agree...but I wasn't at all trying to talk about whether it is viewed as a racist symbol, I was trying to establish what it actually represents to the South.
> 
> Which...this is a bad example, but it happens all the time. Like...we're talking about wealth distribution. We both basically agree on this topic. No need to discuss further. Poor people should be helped. Woo. But I'm trying to say 'this is how society should work' and figure that out...I was saying the other day, there's an element of truth to what people say when they are talking about how people shouldn't depend on the government, but I think it's misdirected, and I'm trying to explain or discuss this viewpoint, but she's always jumping ahead to 'so they shouldn't say that' but...I'm not trying to talk about that, I'm trying to talk about that viewpoint, I'm trying to say how society should work, not how it does, I want to figure out the ideal way -- from both directions -- before applying it to real life, otherwise I feel really...suffocated, like I'm being rushed to a decision that's not being fully polished.
> 
> Does that make sense? Like, it really is a miscommunication...my mom and I actually agree on most things...but I feel like the things I say are often misinterpreted, even when I've put them really well...like something's being lost in translation (not just for my mother, for a lot of people). I feel like if I had a very common type like ESFJ 2 people would sometimes know what I was trying to talk about. I say something, and I know what I mean, and it's the best way it could be said -- but people still don't know what I mean and they take it to mean I mean things I don't.
> 
> Does that make sense? I'm just rethinking.


sounds like Fe-Ti Te-Fi conflict to me. Perhaps also enneagram & instinctual variants.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I feel like crying but I don't know, tears feel useless. This is just the beginning of an avalanche. I should just stay moderate, stay reasonable... but people are hurt by such stances, and people cannot be hurt? 

But I'm so illogical and prone to emotional manipulation, could everything I think politically true now be wrong? 

I don't know. I hate what is going to happen but... What can I do?


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> (I can't be on right now but I wanted to pose a question)
> Consistent disconnect I have with my (ISTJ?) mother:
> We're discussing politics or morals. I'm trying to talk about the idea or the ideal, _what is right_ in a situation. Or...not in a situation. She's always talking about the practical application. I wondered if this could be indicative of my having Ni? or a Te vs Fe difference?
> It's just like, it leads to this weird thing where...she thinks I'm saying something I'm not. This happens all the time. We were talking about the Confederate flag. I seriously have no opinion on it, no knowledge. I think it should probably be avoided but -- what I was trying to talk about was, hypothetically, the identity of the South and what resonance it has in the culture. And she was just saying, it's a racist symbol and should be taken down. And I don't necessarily disagree with that conclusion -- I don't have a strong opinion nor does my opinion matter but I would probably agree...but I wasn't at all trying to talk about whether it is viewed as a racist symbol, I was trying to establish what it actually represents to the South.
> 
> Which...this is a bad example, but it happens all the time. Like...we're talking about wealth distribution. We both basically agree on this topic. No need to discuss further. Poor people should be helped. Woo. But I'm trying to say 'this is how society should work' and figure that out...I was saying the other day, there's an element of truth to what people say when they are talking about how people shouldn't depend on the government, but I think it's misdirected, and I'm trying to explain or discuss this viewpoint, but she's always jumping ahead to 'so they shouldn't say that' but...I'm not trying to talk about that, I'm trying to talk about that viewpoint, I'm trying to say how society should work, not how it does, I want to figure out the ideal way -- from both directions -- before applying it to real life, otherwise I feel really...suffocated, like I'm being rushed to a decision that's not being fully polished.
> 
> Does that make sense? Like, it really is a miscommunication...my mom and I actually agree on most things...but I feel like the things I say are often misinterpreted, even when I've put them really well...like something's being lost in translation (not just for my mother, for a lot of people). I feel like if I had a very common type like ESFJ 2 people would sometimes know what I was trying to talk about. I say something, and I know what I mean, and it's the best way it could be said -- but people still don't know what I mean and they take it to mean I mean things I don't.
> 
> Does that make sense? I'm just rethinking.


This tells me that I need to brush up on my American history, as I have no idea why a flag would be considered racist. But I agree with @fair phantom, Te and Fe disconnect. :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

Pressed Flowers said:


> I feel like crying but I don't know, tears feel useless. This is just the beginning of an avalanche. I should just stay moderate, stay reasonable... but people are hurt by such stances, and people cannot be hurt?
> 
> But I'm so illogical and prone to emotional manipulation, could everything I think politically true now be wrong?
> 
> I don't know. I hate what is going to happen but... What can I do?


unfortunately not taking a side is effectively siding with the status quo. but you need to take care of yourself too.

personally, I avoid getting political when i don't see a point. I avoid talking politics with my mother. I avoid it even more around my fiance's family (especially his extended family). Sometimes I actually avoid events with his family altogether because I just know something will be said and I won't be able to remain silent...but that it won't accomplish anything and just cause emotional distress.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I feel like crying but I don't know, tears feel useless. This is just the beginning of an avalanche. I should just stay moderate, stay reasonable... but people are hurt by such stances, and people cannot be hurt?
> 
> But I'm so illogical and prone to emotional manipulation, could everything I think politically true now be wrong?
> 
> I don't know. I hate what is going to happen but... What can I do?


Staying reasonable is pointless, it just allows you to not be the one to start controversy. People are hurt, people heal. As for your own beliefs being wrong, that's par for the course, just believe in what you want to believe in, that's the way people should be, after all. :happy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Pressed Flowers said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like crying but I don't know, tears feel useless. This is just the beginning of an avalanche. I should just stay moderate, stay reasonable... but people are hurt by such stances, and people cannot be hurt?
> 
> But I'm so illogical and prone to emotional manipulation, could everything I think politically true now be wrong?
> 
> I don't know. I hate what is going to happen but... What can I do?
> 
> 
> 
> unfortunately not taking a side is effectively siding with the status quo. but you need to take care of yourself too.
> 
> personally, I avoid getting political when i don't see a point. I avoid talking politics with my mother. I avoid it even more around my fiance's family (especially his extended family). Sometimes I actually avoid events with his family altogether because I just know something will be said and I won't be able to remain silent...but that it won't accomplish anything and just cause emotional distress.
Click to expand...

Ditto! Me ^

I'm sorry Bear.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I could find logic and facts to make my point, but... That's so hard for me. I know this is right, I know this is what's happening, citing sources to explain that is a terrifyingly large task... I have too much going on for that now. I don't know. It's so difficult to talk to people who don't care if you can't slap sources down on the table.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I could find logic and facts to make my point, but... That's so hard for me. I know this is right, I know this is what's happening, citing sources to explain that is a terrifyingly large task... I have too much going on for that now. I don't know. It's so difficult to talk to people who don't care if you can't slap sources down on the table.


Go ahead then, talk. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Go ahead then, talk. :happy:


Hmm?

I guess I could come up with sources for this issue we discussed. I mean... Start small, work up. There are a ton of sources for my argument, I just have to learn to make the argument effectively.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Hmm?
> 
> I guess I could come up with sources for this issue we discussed. I mean... Start small, work up. There are a ton of sources for my argument, I just have to learn to make the argument effectively.


Well, it's clearly bothering you, might as well listen. Really the least I can do. :wink:

Of course, if you want credibility, yeah, sources are the way to go. :happy:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Pressed Flowers said:


> could everything I think politically true now be wrong?


Everything we believe is wrong. The sky is green. Animals are humans, and humans are animals. We are both men. I'm an ENTJ and you're an ISFP. 

I could delve into the idea that everything we know is possibly wrong because I've been a solipsist since I escaped the womb. I used to wonder if reality existed or if I was imaging it.

My biggest concern is my assessment of myself is false. I see all these hypocrites who claim to be something or understand something but they aren't and they don't. The worst part is this is entirely subconscious and not recognized by the individual committing such a heinous crime. I'm a big hypocrite too, and everything I do is likely not genuine, but a lie to fit an idealized archetype or belief or standard. I quit striving to "be myself" when I realized no one really is.

Either way this isn't what you wanted so I'll type up one of my infamous speeches in a second.

Edit: I just remembered that technically, humans are animals. I'm dying.

How about **** sapiens are cats and cats are **** sapiens?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Princess Langwidere said:


> (I can't be on right now but I wanted to pose a question)
> Consistent disconnect I have with my (ISTJ?) mother:
> We're discussing politics or morals. I'm trying to talk about the idea or the ideal, _what is right_ in a situation. Or...not in a situation. She's always talking about the practical application. I wondered if this could be indicative of my having Ni? or a Te vs Fe difference?
> It's just like, it leads to this weird thing where...she thinks I'm saying something I'm not. This happens all the time. We were talking about the Confederate flag. I seriously have no opinion on it, no knowledge. I think it should probably be avoided but -- what I was trying to talk about was, hypothetically, the identity of the South and what resonance it has in the culture. And she was just saying, it's a racist symbol and should be taken down. And I don't necessarily disagree with that conclusion -- I don't have a strong opinion nor does my opinion matter but I would probably agree...but I wasn't at all trying to talk about whether it is viewed as a racist symbol, I was trying to establish what it actually represents to the South.
> 
> Which...this is a bad example, but it happens all the time. Like...we're talking about wealth distribution. We both basically agree on this topic. No need to discuss further. Poor people should be helped. Woo. But I'm trying to say 'this is how society should work' and figure that out...I was saying the other day, there's an element of truth to what people say when they are talking about how people shouldn't depend on the government, but I think it's misdirected, and I'm trying to explain or discuss this viewpoint, but she's always jumping ahead to 'so they shouldn't say that' but...I'm not trying to talk about that, I'm trying to talk about that viewpoint, I'm trying to say how society should work, not how it does, I want to figure out the ideal way -- from both directions -- before applying it to real life, otherwise I feel really...suffocated, like I'm being rushed to a decision that's not being fully polished.
> 
> Does that make sense? Like, it really is a miscommunication...my mom and I actually agree on most things...but I feel like the things I say are often misinterpreted, even when I've put them really well...like something's being lost in translation (not just for my mother, for a lot of people). I feel like if I had a very common type like ESFJ 2 people would sometimes know what I was trying to talk about. I say something, and I know what I mean, and it's the best way it could be said -- but people still don't know what I mean and they take it to mean I mean things I don't.
> 
> Does that make sense? I'm just rethinking.


I agree; sounds like a Ti/Te clash. Especially feeling rushed into a decision that is yet to be polished. Your Ti is delightful, but I really admire Ti. 

Not being understood has many factors. I would say everyone has moments of coming across as unintelligible, and I don't think it's as simple as N vs S. Yes, N is harder to understand, but being difficult to understand does not always stem from your perception function... or even cognition at all. But when you're dealing with someone who frames the world differently from you, a clash exists. Sounds like the case with you and your mother, but not being understood is not as simple as "oh that means I use N".

Then again I overcomplicate everything so.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> I grew up in Northeast Ohio. Snowbelt.
> 
> I haaaate the heat. I envy your ability to adjust )
> 
> 
> 
> I have a pair of cute pale neural-pink shoes that are similar to laceless converses. They are great for hiking or walking all day. (my city is not made for heels, alas, so much unevenness).


Well, you win)


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> Well, for many people clothes and makeup are a form of self-expression, so I'm all for it because it's interesting to see people express themselves. But I also think dressing up for a partner or something could be seen as 'making an effort' which is nice, like making a meal for them or setting up a table romantically (candles etc.). Part of the set. So, yeah, it would be nice if the guy dressed up too (I mean, that's funny coming from me).


I think so too. Showing that you've put a bit of extra effort into something for someone is always appreciated (or should be). 



> Yes, I think it's kind of a difference between being complimentary and invasive in comments.


For me it's more like, it feels weird to be complimented on something that I had no control over. Curly hair or small waist? Well thanks I guess, but I only have them because they run in the family. Just luck of the draw. Not much to do with what I actually think of as my "core". But my style is something that I do work on, and it expresses my likes and dislikes and things that I feel are closer to my actual personality, which is something that I do want to be seen and valued for.



> I think if you look like you're confidently going somewhere, you're less likely to be approached (too fast). I have the thing with music being low enough to hear around me, mostly so I can hear if cars are coming (I live in the land of many corners).


That might be true. I'm rarely approached by people when I'm going somewhere. Only when I've stopped or am trying to make myself walk more slowly (not nice to turn up to a venue all sweaty because I can't pace myself well). 



> So much need for comfort. I had one jumper I loved because it was so comfortable, but it's too short for me now (very sad, very tall person here).


Noooo!!! That's always heartbreaking. I've had shirts that my mother has made me throw out because they were about to fall apart, but they were SO SOFT. SO SOFT. (Obviously they were just to wear around home. But still. SOFT.)



> Yeah, I don't get flirting. Why does it exist?


Apparently it prevents the whole awkward "do they like me? do they not like me?" and you're supposed to do it only when you like someone. But I can't figure out what's flirting and what isn't. It's like if I don't want to be seen as flirtacious I have to keep deadpan and low-key, but if I do that I'm interpreted as cold and uncaring and basically I just can't win so I've stopped trying to play that game and just.... whatever.



> I'm seriously ultimate romantic here though. I can dissect romance and put it on display in a museum. Beautiful.


*melts*



OvalCat said:


> This makes me worried now because I like complimenting people on random days


Meh, I think you can tell by body language whether it'll be welcome or not. If it's a genuine compliment I'll forgive the intrusion because I appreciate the kindness. If it's vulgar or clearly meant to manipulate me somehow I just ignore it and keep moving. But generally I think if someone obviously looks like they don't want to be bothered (which I'll admit is an image I often project in public) it's better to just keep away. If not, then go ahead and brighten their day a bit!



laurie17 said:


> @OvalCat Sorry it's off-topic but there are so many cats in this thread: @ElliCat @angelcat :ghost3:


We're taking over. :typingneko:



fair phantom said:


> Prostitutes are not bad people. Sex workers are not responsible for violence that happens to them. A friend of mine is a sex worker and it is often very different from how you imagine. She doesn't walk the streets or anything. She is in full control of her client list and she has no problem declining employment if she feels the person is bad news. Aside from some verbal harassment, the only violence she ever experienced was at the hands of police.
> 
> I used to have an ignorant, conservative-oriented perspective about sex work so I don't blame anyone here for having that same perspective, but I'd like to ask that we not refer to sex workers as if they were some homogenous group deserving scorn. Mostly so that I don't have to fight anyone about it (and I will if necessary :th_Jttesur


Hear hear! :lovekitty:

@tine Your work sounds so interesting! Enjoy your recovery from all the people.



fair phantom said:


> It hurts so much to not have money to buy clothes. I get frustrated because how I often have to dress now is not "me". It is not "my style".


4 problems? Fi + 4 problems? xNFP + 4 problems? I just don't know. But it bothers me SO MUCH.



> For about two years in college I literally never wore pants. Similar deal: dresses and skirts were more flattering and honestly I found them more comfortable. My friends thought it was strange and at one point a friend declared that if I didn't buy myself a pair of jeans then she was going to buy a pair before me because she couldn't stand seeing me freeze in the winter. I finally found a couple of pairs of jeans that suited me and so I mix it up, but basically if they aren't designer jeans they do nothing for me (luckily I am good at finding deals).


My sister had to force me into buying skinny jeans a couple of years ago. I just hate shopping for pants. They're either too tight up top, or too long in the legs (and often they're too long in the legs AND refuse to do up over my hips!). Frustrating.

Shoes are similarly frustrating. Usually trying to go shoe shopping ends in literal tears - my feet end up sore from walking around to 20 different stores and trying on 200 different pairs and NOTHING fits or is even close to comfortable. So it ends up into me taking what I can get when I find something that is relatively okay. I just bought a pair of ballet flats for work on Sunday because they seemed to fit (spent 3 times what I wanted to and not the style I was after - I prefer a kitten heel or slight wedge - but that's often the way) and I'm seriously considering going back and getting another pair because they're not actually ripping my feet to shreds, which is what usually happens with shoes that fit perfectly before I buy. 

Blagh. That Huffington Post article confirms they're all evil though. I agree. I'm glad someone else finally sees it.



> Shapeshifting is very high on my list of desired superpowers.


MINE TOO.



> I definitely have to get myself in the right mindset/mood before speaking. And don't ask me to do anything with my hands. I remember in junior high we had to do a demonstrative/instructional speech. I made cookies and my hands shook so much that I knocked a spoon of the table. It was embarassing.


Oh dear! That's one reason why I like hiding behind the teacher's desk or a lecturn. It's like a shield. And also hiding.



> Yeah my mom is a worrywort. I felt it necessary to conceal the fact that I was traveling alone in Europe until the trip was over.


I don't think I'll ever tell her I learned to scuba dive on my last holiday. Which is hard because she's got this way of making people talk and want to tell her things. But I don't think I could give her yet another reason to worry about me.



> Well it isn't as useful in all parts of the country, but Washington DC is so international* that I see it listed under qualifications/desired skills on job postings quite often. And I live near most embassies too. Think of how many embassies I could apply to work at if I knew arabic!
> 
> *nearly every time I leave the house I hear at _least_ one language used in conversation that isn't English or Spanish. It is great fun.


That's really awesome! I hope you can find some local classes because it does sound potentially useful.



> Yes! Some green! get some life around! There have been studies showing that it improves mood.


Somehow I'm not surprised! I'm a bit of a forest girl so I think I'll go for it. I don't know whether my green thumb will be enough to keep them alive (my track record isn't so great with indoor plants) but we'll see how it goes!



> Oh man, me too. And then people ask me what is wrong and I think: "How can I explain...."


Million dollar question.



> I sort of feel the same regarding respect (both for others and for oneself), but I mostly apply it to particular situations. It drove me nuts when people showed up to do class presentations or for class debates looking like they just rolled out of bed. It struck me as disrespectful. I take a "wear what you want" approach to when people are just going about their day, but if you are presenting something, make some sort of effort to look like you take your audience and yourself seriously.


I agree with this too. When someone's out and about I don't _truly_ care - I don't understand not putting effort into at least looking tidy but it's not a real moral issue for me and I won't get worked up about it. But if it's for a presentation or work or something where you are trying to give a good impression (or should be!) then I feel a bit like, what's wrong with your attitude? But still not enough to get worked up over. 



> YES. Color Pattern Texture! Part of the reason why my wardrobe is so depleted is I really resist buying cheap quality clothing.


I often end up caving and buying cheaper clothes than I'd like, but I live in an area with great second-hand stores so I've started going there to hunt for better quality pieces. I also keep an eye out for sales from a few local designers that I like, but of course that only works when I'm in the right part of the world...



> I hate unpleasant fabric. And if I know that it is going to fray or get stretched out easily…what is the point? seems wasteful.


There are a few stores I've stopped buying clothes from, no matter how cute they are, because I was sick of them falling apart within a year. If I buy something it's because I like it and want it to last! Which I know goes against the whole concept of fast fashion, but still. :blue:



> I hate when I accidentally flirt. Led to an awkward situation with one of my best guy friends. Sigh.


Yeah, I've had that happen to. I felt like the worst person alive. 



> My rules for sexual morality:
> 
> 1. Don't cheat
> 2. Consent is mandatory (which also means no pressuring or taking advantage of intoxication!)
> 3. Be honest


Same here. And also be safe and responsible! Take care of your health!



Princess Langwidere said:


> Honestly I've never really understood dresses = cold. 1. Tights and nylons and exist 2. My legs just aren't that fragile.
> Actually, I don't understand warm clothing altogether. It's just...is being cold really worse than living in a suffocating tent of fluff? The only reason I wear warm clothes at all is so I won't have to be answering 'are you cold?' all the time. No, I'm not.
> 
> But wearing skirts is one of those things I don't think about until someone points it out. Whenever I wear pants (i.e. jeans or the like) everyone goes all "OMG Langwidere I didn't even know you owned pants this is like stepping into a surreal alternate universe" so I've been trying to wear them more so I don't have to deal with that either.
> 
> I also always wear heels, again, they're just more comfortable for me, I have high arches and imo they look nicer and don't fall off my feet every time I take a step. I don't even notice other people's shoes or mine that much so I'm always shocked with the multitude of people who have me pegged as 'the heel girl' and have some sort of out-of-body experience when they see me wearing flats. I don't really understand why my footwear patterns are being tracked by so many other people but it's really annoying.
> 
> Sorry, got off track by how many people are annoying about normal clothing choices.


I get cold easily so I love warm clothing.

The rest is just plain obnoxious though. I hate it when people do that to me. It's like, if you think it's a nice change and that I should do it more often, say that. Otherwise it just sounds like you're mocking me.



Pressed Flowers said:


> Is asserting your political beliefs supposed to be painful.


Sometimes, yes.



fair phantom said:


> personally, I avoid getting political when i don't see a point. I avoid talking politics with my mother. I avoid it even more around my fiance's family (especially his extended family). Sometimes I actually avoid events with his family altogether because I just know something will be said and I won't be able to remain silent...but that it won't accomplish anything and just cause emotional distress.


I do this too. I feel bad for not making more of an effort to make people see reason (Australian politics is just literally insane at the moment) but I don't see the point when they don't WANT to see the real-world consequences of what they're supporting.



Pressed Flowers said:


> I could find logic and facts to make my point, but... That's so hard for me. I know this is right, I know this is what's happening, citing sources to explain that is a terrifyingly large task... I have too much going on for that now. I don't know. It's so difficult to talk to people who don't care if you can't slap sources down on the table.


I have the opposite problem in my family: I can slap down all the sources and facts that I want, but they dismiss them. Both parents have inferior Thinking, hurrah! Not that inferior Te or Ti necessarily makes that inevitable - I should know it doesn't - but it's certainly relevant in their case.


----------



## Persephone Soul

hoopla said:


> Pressed Flowers said:
> 
> 
> 
> could everything I think politically true now be wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> Everything we believe is wrong. The sky is green. Animals are humans, and humans are animals. We are both men. I'm an ENTJ and you're an ISFP.
> 
> I could delve into the idea that everything we know is possibly wrong because I've been a solipsist since I escaped the womb. I used to wonder if reality existed or if I was imaging it.
> 
> My biggest concern is my assessment of myself is false. I see all these hypocrites who claim to be something or understand something but they aren't and they don't. The worst part is this is entirely subconscious and not recognized by the individual committing such a heinous crime. I'm a big hypocrite too, and everything I do is likely not genuine, but a lie to fit an idealized archetype or belief or standard. I quit striving to "be myself" when I realized no one really is.
> 
> Either way this isn't what you wanted so I'll type up one of my infamous speeches in a second.
> 
> Edit: I just remembered that technically, humans are animals. I'm dying.
> 
> How about **** sapiens are cats and cats are **** sapiens?
Click to expand...

This was bizarrely excellent!


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Do people honestly care if someone wears pants or not?

This is when I hate fashion.

I prefer skirts and dresses too. But I like summer shorts and especially rompers!

In high school I wore a lot of dresses and heels and this girl used to ask if I was going on a date or a business interview to fuck with me. "Why you so fancy?" Why do you care.


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> I agree; sounds like a Ti/Te clash. Especially feeling rushed into a decision that is yet to be polished. Your Ti is delightful, but I really admire Ti.
> 
> Not being understood has many factors. I would say everyone has moments of coming across as unintelligible, and I don't think it's as simple as N vs S. Yes, N is harder to understand, but being difficult to understand does not always stem from your perception function... or even cognition at all. But when you're dealing with someone who frames the world differently from you, a clash exists. Sounds like the case with you and your mother, but not being understood is not as simple as "oh that means I use N".
> 
> Then again I overcomplicate everything so.


Yeah, sorry, I was putting that really quickly cause I was rushing out the door)
The reason that this was making me think Ni was because I'm usually aiming at a point hiding behind the point the other person is arguing, and I think it leads to confusion because I'm trying to shoot at that point and the other person is thinking 'she's not really shooting this object well' and I'm trying to explain that I'm trying to get that thing behind the other thing but the other person isn't interested in that thing.

But, I mean, I usually don't know if I'm 'big picture first' or 'details first' but in this case I am big-picture first. If I'm going to come to a decision about, say, the Confederate flag, I first want to decide -- who defines the meaning of a symbol? What value to national symbols have? and THEN how is symbol being used? how is this symbol being perceived? and _then_ does this symbol have an appropriate place? and so forth. 

or...I agree, this is probably Ti. But like...ok, I was talking, again to my mother, about the education system. And, you know, I was getting so frustrated because I was trying to talk about what it would like in an ideal world. And she kept talking about why these things don't happen in real life. Which is fine and all, we were just cross-firing because I don't see how we can establish what education should be if we are only talking abut why it isn't so, and from her side...I don't know. I mean, it's fine, it's part of human conversation, but this is a very common thing that happens to me in conversation -- with more people than just my mother. I think whenever I'm trying to explain why I believe something or what I think about something...there is some sort of disconnect, which is difficult to explain but I think this is an example of it? Like...I doubt my Si because I feel that Si users are better able to...put their thoughts into context. I know everyone struggles to express their introverted functions but...I don't know what I'm saying anymore, can't figure out a good way to end that sentence, but like...I often feel like I'm coming at things from the opposite directions of people, which makes it very difficult to properly express what I think and why, even though I know.


----------



## fair phantom

Typology question inspired by @hoopla : do you think extroverts are inclined towards solipsism? It seems more like an introvert thing. Could it be related to particular functions? I find it particularly difficult to imagine a solipsistic Se-dom.

*works on replies*


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> IBut @Barakiel I'm guessing you have some of these things since you mentioned it?)


I'm not even gonna bother quoting that whole thing, as it's massive. Though you seem to have an appreciation for a mixture of conservative habits (embroidery), and some rather interesting ones (songwriting and language translations). :happy:

As for me, I mainly tried to start this topic because it's always been a point of contention for me that I'm good at stuff that I don't enjoy doing, it's automatic for me, whereas the stuff that I enjoy is mostly from me emulating someone proficient at it, and filling in the gaps with improvisation. :wink:


----------



## Future2Future

I took over half an hour to complete that test. 

Results below


* *












Same results :dry:




Edit : I also took the Global 5 test.



> Global 5: sloan RCUAI; sloan+ |R|cUaI; primary Reserved; R(82%)C(54%)U(78%)A(58%)I(76%)


----------



## Greyhart

My view on fashion and clothes is basically this: regardless of whether you prefer thinking about it as self-expression or image for outside world, take a chill-pill, it's still just pieces of fabrics, it's really not a big deal.

In fact, food you eat is a much bigger deal - for one what you eat is used to grow and repair your body and then there are things that actually affect your mind - coffee, sugar, drugs, and vitamin B deficiency.

________________

Suddenly boobies. I love arguing about boobies so here's my essay:


* *





First of all, boobies aren’t sexual organs. They are secondary sex characteristic like antlers or peacock’s plumage. Female boobies are slightly different from male boobies because they were designed to feed tiny humans. So calling them sexual organs suggests that when women feed their babies they are engaging in sexual acts with them. Think about that _hard_.

Second of all, if there’s any sexual organ (_above_ obvious nether regions) it’s the mouth. Yes, mouth. Amount of sexual practices that involve mouths is just obscene for both genders. So mouth is a sexual organ. Think about it the next time you talk to your grandma.

Now, lets identify what do ‘inappropriate boobies’ mean. For starters, since Barbie has boobies and is deemed acceptable for children, it’s not boobies that are inappropriate but NIPPLES.

So how do we decide which nipples are right and which are wrong for public places? You could say “woman nipples”. But what about trans men who went through surgery? Are their nipples still inappropriate? 

So you could say that to be inappropriate nipples need to be on a top of sizable lump of mammary glands. But what about cis-men who have boobies bigger than some cis-women? Or trans women who got silicone transplants instead of XX female mammary glands?

So then you could define inappropriate nipples as nipples on top of sizable lump belonging to someone who identifies as female. But what about people that identify as something else entirely? Do we invite gender specialist to assess appropriateness of their nipples?

You could understandably say “Fuck it! I decide if someone’s nipple shouldn’t be shown in public!”. But then who are to make decisions for others? Were you democratically elected into that position?

So you could take an easy route and say that nipple-appropriateness is determined by vote of majority - if many find it offensive it shouldn’t be shown in public. But then you look back at entire argument and realize that your view was created by standards of society you were born into. If you were an Aztec you’d be sacrificing humans and marrying your aunt. So then you realize that you don’t actually know what is right and wrong. Your views were instilled by society and circumstances you grew in.

And then you suddenly understand that you don’t actually _know_ anything - what you accept as true was spoon-fed to you by others - directly or via some medium. How do you know that Earth revolves around the Sun? Did you actually see it with your eyes? And even if you did, how sure are you that what you saw wasn’t influenced by what others previously told you? How can you believe anything? How can you know that anything is true? How do you define reality? 

T̰̺̺͖̜H̛̜̖̟͔̪ͅE̥͈̤̬͍̭͝RE͇͔̜͖'̰͍S̝̟̲͉͍ ̯̱͝N̫͍̠O̠̼̭͟ͅT̴͈̰͇̪̦̦ ͙̞͈T҉͈̩͕͓̩̻̩R̥̲Ư̹̲̘T̻̝́H͙̫͎͕͈̺



So then you shrug and eat more sugar.












In conclusion, humans confusing me, I want to live with science, math, and tech gadgets.



ProtoCosmos said:


> Problem is, I almost feel like I have no subconscious : it's more of an in-between state, where my conscious would be faking unconscious things or my subconscious spilling over my consciousness, it's hard to explain.


Brain: heh, look at that slut.
You: don’t be a judgmental shit.
Brain: but...
You: I SAID NO.



ProtoCosmos said:


> I took over half an hour to complete that test.
> 
> Results below
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same results :dry:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit : I also took the Global 5 test.


I used to get 549 when I first came to this forum in October. :| 

I can give you links to really long good posts about types. By @Blue Flare . Well actually copypasted by her from ebook.

Or, you know what, this guy https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXR35-N5N7rZaQ6kyM1AbVI_N6t6gKVj- he is eery accurate with his descriptions.


----------



## Tad Cooper

I did the enneagram test too to see what it said and got this:


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> My view on fashion and clothes is basically this: regardless of whether you prefer thinking about it as self-expression or image for outside world, take a chill-pill, it's still just pieces of fabrics, it's really not a big deal.
> 
> In fact, food you eat is a much bigger deal - for one what you eat is used to grow and repair your body and then there are things that actually affect your mind - coffee, sugar, drugs, and vitamin B deficiency.
> 
> ________________
> 
> Suddenly boobies. I love arguing about boobies so here's my essay:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, boobies aren’t sexual organs. They are secondary sex characteristic like antlers or peacock’s plumage. Female boobies are slightly different from male boobies because they were designed to feed tiny humans. So calling them sexual organs suggests that when women feed their babies they are engaging in sexual acts with them. Think about that _hard_.
> 
> Second of all, if there’s any sexual organ (_above_ obvious nether regions) it’s the mouth. Yes, mouth. Amount of sexual practices that involve mouths is just obscene for both genders. So mouth is a sexual organ. Think about it the next time you talk to your grandma.
> 
> Now, lets identify what do ‘inappropriate boobies’ mean. For starters, since Barbie has boobies and is deemed acceptable for children, it’s not boobies that are inappropriate but NIPPLES.
> 
> So how do we decide which nipples are right and which are wrong for public places? You could say “woman nipples”. But what about trans men who went through surgery? Are their nipples still inappropriate?
> 
> So you could say that to be inappropriate nipples need to be on a top of sizable lump of mammary glands. But what about cis-men who have boobies bigger than some cis-women? Or trans women who got silicone transplants instead of XY female mammary glands?
> 
> So then you could define inappropriate nipples as nipples on top of sizable lump belonging to someone who identifies as female. But what about people that identify as something else entirely? Do we invite gender specialist to assess appropriateness of their nipples?
> 
> You could understandably say “Fuck it! I decide if someone’s nipple shouldn’t be shown in public!”. But then who are to make decisions for others? Were you democratically elected into that position?
> 
> So you could take an easy route and say that nipple-appropriateness is determined by vote of majority - if many find it offensive it shouldn’t be shown in public. But then you look back at entire argument and realize that your view was created by standards of society you were born into. If you were an Aztec you’d be sacrificing humans and marrying your aunt. So then you realize that you don’t actually know what is right and wrong. Your views were instilled by society and circumstances you grew in.
> 
> And then you suddenly understand that you don’t actually _know_ anything - what you accept as true was spoon-fed to you by others - directly or via some medium. How do you know that Earth revolves around the Sun? Did you actually see it with your eyes? And even if you did, how sure are you that what you saw wasn’t influenced by what others previously told you? How can you believe anything? How can you know that anything is true? How do you define reality?
> 
> T̰̺̺͖̜H̛̜̖̟͔̪ͅE̥͈̤̬͍̭͝RE͇͔̜͖'̰͍S̝̟̲͉͍ ̯̱͝N̫͍̠O̠̼̭͟ͅT̴͈̰͇̪̦̦ ͙̞͈T҉͈̩͕͓̩̻̩R̥̲Ư̹̲̘T̻̝́H͙̫͎͕͈̺
> 
> 
> 
> So then you shrug and eat more sugar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In conclusion, humans confusing me, I want to live with science, math, and tech gadgets.
> 
> 
> Brain: heh, look at that slut.
> You: don’t be a judgmental shit.
> Brain: but...
> You: I SAID NO.
> 
> 
> I used to get 549 when I first came to this forum in October. :|
> 
> I can give you links to really long good posts about types. By @Blue Flare . Well actually copypasted by her from ebook.
> 
> Or, you know what, this guy https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXR35-N5N7rZaQ6kyM1AbVI_N6t6gKVj- he is eery accurate with his descriptions.


His three video nailed it.

Edit: when people say they want to question everything it makes me uncomfortable because how are they going to prove that there are protons, the earth is round and that there are people living in Australia and etc. 
I take it too literally but faiiithhh


----------



## Deadly Decorum

I can't go to bed. It's too hot and my mind is racing and this has got to be the most interesting conversation this thread has discoursed in weeks. So much to think about. No way in hell anyone is going to read this entire thing.


* *






Princess Langwidere said:


> Yeah, sorry, I was putting that really quickly cause I was rushing out the door)
> The reason that this was making me think Ni was because I'm usually aiming at a point hiding behind the point the other person is arguing, and I think it leads to confusion because I'm trying to shoot at that point and the other person is thinking 'she's not really shooting this object well' and I'm trying to explain that I'm trying to get that thing behind the other thing but the other person isn't interested in that thing.


This sounds like general introversion to me. What point hiding behind the point are you aiming at? It would clear confusion. 

Ni is more like.... we are all desensitized and brainwashed, and unaware of the truth that lies behind the social conditioning of reality. At least that's how my Ni dom friend describes it. For example, she believes physical attraction is an attribute of this desentisization, and that we are blinded to what people actually represent and what they mean. She could care less about what someone looks like... what do they stand for? What is their psyche?



Princess Langwidere said:


> But, I mean, I usually don't know if I'm 'big picture first' or 'details first' but in this case I am big-picture first. If I'm going to come to a decision about, say, the Confederate flag, I first want to decide -- who defines the meaning of a symbol? What value to national symbols have? and THEN how is symbol being used? how is this symbol being perceived? and then does this symbol have an appropriate place? and so forth.


N needs a better term than "big picture". I associate big picture with Pe. It's the right idea, because sensors are more intrinsically drawn to details whereas intuitives are more drawn to concepts, but big picture sounds distinctively extroverted. I would not describe Pi as big picture oriented... too narrow.

That sounds like Ti to me, actually. You're tearing the logic to bits to get to the truth, am I right?




Princess Langwidere said:


> or...I agree, this is probably Ti. But like...ok, I was talking, again to my mother, about the education system. And, you know, I was getting so frustrated because I was trying to talk about what it would like in an ideal world. And she kept talking about why these things don't happen in real life. Which is fine and all, we were just cross-firing because I don't see how we can establish what education should be if we are only talking abut why it isn't so, and from her side...I don't know. I mean, it's fine, it's part of human conversation, but this is a very common thing that happens to me in conversation -- with more people than just my mother. I think whenever I'm trying to explain why I believe something or what I think about something...there is some sort of disconnect, which is difficult to explain but I think this is an example of it? Like...I doubt my Si because I feel that Si users are better able to...put their thoughts into context. I know everyone struggles to express their introverted functions but...I don't know what I'm saying anymore, can't figure out a good way to end that sentence, but like...I often feel like I'm coming at things from the opposite directions of people, which makes it very difficult to properly express what I think and why, even though I know.


Well I'll admit this is confusing to me. Ha. I apologize for cementing the disconnection track record. 

I believe it is the education idea that through me through a loop. Perhaps your mother was just looking at education through a critical lens... what the system is, and what flaws abide within that system. 

I think the only way we can discuss why education should or shouldn't be is to first establish what education is. What does education do? What are it's goals? How does the system work? Is education reaching this goal? What are the benefits and negative effects of how education reaches this goal? Once we've answered what education is at it's core, then we can decide if education is meeting it's essence or if the essence of education is removed. We can decide how we can reach the essence of education, and what steps would steer away from this goal, and how to solve these very disadvantages.

You can't just decide what education should or shouldn't be without knowing it's true goals or origins and if what education is currently doing is reaching these goals and origins in a healthy and beneficial way. It'd be like deciding to vote for a president just because he is a liberal... well what does the president do? What does he want? You need to know all of those gritty details before you can decide what should or shouldn't be.

You can rule out Ni btw. If you are convinced you're not a strong Si type, an NP would be a much better decision. An ideal world? Taking all the it-shouldn't-be's and morphing them into it-could-be's? This is a very Si-Ne approach. The Si seems stronger here, because you seem to focus more on how education should be based on your own private interpretations, and then expand and morph conceptual possibilities out of that framework. Ne is strong and healthy, but it's the baby feeding milk from the breast, not the milk itself.

I will also say that Si is disconnection in general. You are so removed from what things are that everything blurs together and you feel lost, as if you're 20 years behind.

As for your mother... these things don't happen in real life? That sounds extroverted... is she pragmatic, as in, this is the way things work, these are the facts, that's just how it is, and anything else is nonsense, sort of way? You typed her as ISTJ, so probably.



fair phantom said:


> do you think extroverts are inclined towards solipsism? It seems more like an introvert thing. Could it be related to particular functions? I find it particularly difficult to imagine a solipsistic Se-dom.


I think solipsism is a very Ti philosophy. The whole idea is that everything around us is possibly a lie... it's all just a bunch of matter... it's all a matter of how our brain perceives reality through electrical impulses. We don't know anything, basically, is how I perceive solipsism. It seems true, it seems to exist, it appears X is X... but what if X is Y? What if X doesn't exist at all? And that's basically how Ti sees the world. 

It is an interesting idea that solipsism is introverted. I agree that it is very introverted... in terms of Ti. Abstract logic. I don't think it is introversion in general, and I'm not sure if the other introverted types are naturally inclined to that sort of thinking like I imagine Ti is. I imagine Ne would enjoy it, since the only thing we know exists is ourselves... and I imagine Ne could explore the many angles of perception and all of that noise. I can certainly picture an Se solipsist. Many Se types actually love philosophy. If they find it engaging, they will soak up the entire theory, even if they can't quite understand it, just because it grips them. I think @OvalCat is a good example of that. I love watching her ask questions about this theory. It's as if it's interesting to her... and she wants to know everything about it. She can't always understand it, but just hearing about it stimulates her. So I wonder ovalcat, how do you feel about solipsism? Let's test phantom's idea.

It is Te doms I fail to imagine enjoying solipsism... too much Ti for their brains to handle. They'd probably see it as impractical. 




Princess Langwidere said:


> It makes me uncomfortable. I've entertained the idea briefly just for fun like...when I read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy maybe, but I personally do not envision myself with that idea for more than ten minutes, it seriously creeps me out.


I find comfort in it, because at least I know I exist. Then I imagine that this is just a simulated reality and I'm really just a projection created for educational purposes... there's another world out there playing out a virtual world to see if it would work... and I'm just a lab experiment... a bunch of artificial pixels created by a team of scientists... 

Ever read Ray Bradbury's No Particular Night or Morning? I haven't yet, though I have read a few of his short stories. I want to pick up The Illustrated Man at the library. It plays with the idea of solipsism. It better be good. But since it's Bradbury, I know it will be.



Greyhart said:


> Foreword: all of this greatly amused me and raised my spirits despite my usual morning grogginess.


I'm glad. Your current icon always lifts me out of a fog. I laughed so hard the first time I saw it, so it's nice to return the favor.



Greyhart said:


> JUST TO CLARIFY I don't dislike people that find clothes to be self-expression. It just that isn't *for me*, I view it as a part of my "image" that I project into reality but I am mature enough to recognize that my views aren't universal.


I appreciate your open mind. You also reminded me of that infamous interview Manson did with O Riley... he was discussing how we all have a certain image we want to convey. I never thought of it that way before and I should have because it's so simplistic... but he's absolutely right. Spun the way I view appearances differently forever.



Greyhart said:


> If anything it projects image of a child. And still people make sexual comments about her looks.


People make sexual comments regardless of how you look. I get hit on in a coffee shop in sweats and a hoodie. 

Either way... there is a sexual aspect to Lolita in a sense... it was coined from the book after all. Not that sweet Lolita is meant to be sexual, but the innocent, virginal purity is a fantasy for many. I doubt that's why your friend receives sexual comments but it's just a thought. According to wiki:



> Lolita fashion is thought to have been partly created to react against the growing exposure of the body and skin in modern society. Adherents fight this with modesty, presenting themselves as "cute" or "elegant" rather than "sexy". One follower of the Gothic Lolita fashion explained:
> 
> 
> We certainly do not do this for the attention of men. Frequently, female sexuality is portrayed in a way that is palatable and accessible to men, and anything outside of that is intimidating. Something so unabashedly female is ultimately kind of scary – in fact, I consider it to be pretty confrontational. Dressing this way takes a certain kind of ownership of one's own sexuality that wearing expected or regular things just does not. It doesn't take a lot of moxie to put on a pencil skirt and flats. It's not, as some commentators have suggested, some sort of appeal to men's expectation that women should be childlike, or an attempt to pander to pedophiles. Pedophiles like little girls. They don't like grown women who happen to like dresses with cakes on them. I've never been hit on by a pedophile while in Lolita. We don't get into it because it is some sort of misplaced pedo complex or anything, and the objective isn't simply to emulate little girls, despite the name Lolita.


I think the origins behind Lolita and what the movement stands for is quite beautiful. Pervs will be pervs though.



Greyhart said:


> There's nothing inherently vulgar about body  It's in the eye of the beholder.


As a child I thought our bodies were disgusting until a friend of mine was discussing how she would sit naked on her laptop. Nasty. Impure! Then I got to talking with some other people about how they draw naked bodies because a body is something we are born with... why is it wrong? And then I remembered that according to the Adam and Eve fable, our bodies are only evil because we ate from tree of life... and we would all be naked if it weren't for that (I don't literally believe in the fable btw). Bodies created us, and fed us (unless u drank formula... my mom thinks she ruined me because I drank soy based formula growing up, lmao), it's not sexual when we undress or shower, and I used to undress infront of my friends... so it's not dirty or vulgar or profane at all to be nude. I watched this movie called Free the Nipple and I agree entirely with it's message. I'd totally take my top off in a protest. Our bodies are actually powerful and without reproductive organs none of us would be alive, so change the sexual context! So funny how our minds change overtime.









Greyhart said:


> When I wore mini-skirt and a low-cut tee for the first time to my friend's party I got so many comments that assumed that it signified some sort of radical change in my personality and not just "I've found these clothes for cheap and decided to try them on lol". I found that ridiculous but then I realized that I can make people assume what I want them to, so I started picking my attired based on what I want them to think. That being said, what I wear is mostly "normal" (read - hipster) clothes that don't tell much about me except that I've learned how to match cuts and colors. Alternatively I like to wear flashy clothes of contrasting colors and sharp cuts since according to some people it makes me hard to approach which in combination with a murder walk conveys "Leave me alone" attitude. That's what I think clothes are - tool of communication. Less than speech but still effective due to society-instilled values.


Yes... I am fickle with fashion. In high school I decided to dress gothic even though I had been dressing "normal" the entire week, and the kid at my table said "...I can't believe how different a person can look! (I typed him as an aspie (which he later confirmed) INTP actually. Interesting kid). It was so weird... I am really just me, it doesn't insinuate a change in personality. I love how differently people treat me based on how I dress. It makes me sad how image conscious we are, but it gives me a sort of power I can roll with. People can see me how I want them to see me. It's a mask in a way. You totally get it!



Greyhart said:


> Ah, but isn't it a person's own fault on assuming things about other person by what they chose to wear?
> 
> 
> Mind's true image is bunch of chemical processes and some electricity. How do you dress like that? As for manipulation, if you go assuming things based on clothes you are opening yourself to manipulation. If fact you could say, that your mind manipulates you into thinking that you know someone just by fabrics that they wear.
> 
> Also about breasts, in many culture they weren't considered as sexual organs. In fact, there are cultures still left where topless is fine for any gender.
> 
> 
> Clothes are not inherent in our species, it's cultural, standards and trends change. Thus I can't see as anything but label that you wear to inexact with outside world. Kind like an armor, or feathers of birds - designed to either hide them from attack or attract a mate. Regardless of what I wear, my brain is still exactly the same.
> 
> My friend wore fishnets because she found them cool in combination with black shorts and "biker" leather jacket. After one day she stopped because people were staring at her and treating her differently and it made her feel horrible. Is it right to her?


A+



Greyhart said:


> Just so you know, the single sexiest attire for me are dress suits. On any gender. So do I have a right to hate on office workers because they are calling to my libido?


Research shows that women are attracted to power and success due to evolutionary origins. I totally denied that. Suits don't do it for me. Then... I realized that maybe I am interested in success and money in a way. I cried because I'm shallow like everyone else. I mean... a rich CEO doesn't do it for me... but I like the idea I can be taken care of in case I can't fend for myself. So stereotypical! But I still demand personal space and the liberty to make my own decisions in relationships. 

I almost dated this loser guy with no money who lived with his bro and that's when this all came to fruition. I couldn't dude... what if he wanted something serious. That couldn't be anything other than casual... plus there was no way I could hide that from my parents at the time. lol




Greyhart said:


> But it's true dude. So many things are designed to trick your consciousness. Fiction, video games, trends, commercials.
> 
> 
> Sure. It's a form of etiquette. That being said, it's not a singularly-defined term. I still stand behind that it is a form of communication with the world. Similar to speech but much more... one-dimensional than that. It can give others some idea but I find making any huge judgement about person's mind based on their style is rush and... harmful to my perception. I need to look beyond this "first facade" to begin to form an image of person. This is why for the most part people don't even register to me. "Human units passing by, refrain from running into them, use speech to communicate your needs" sort of view.
> 
> DUDE YOU CAN'T "CONTROL" PEOPLE THAT EASILY OR I WOULD'VE HAD AN ARMY MARCHING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD BY NOW. Seriously, give people some credit. We aren't animals, we are fully sentient, we fly into fucking space, we can take control over our decisions and conclusions with come to.
> 
> 
> "Unless you mean on a very subconscious, social level, in which most people are unlikely to even notice."
> Literally everything made by humans does it. EVERYTHING. Things are designed to make you buy them. Web sites pick specific colors to give specific ideas. I work with advertisement, I know just how much of all of that is meant to give you subconscious ideas. If you are that afraid of it, you simply can not live in human society.
> 
> Think, just because you see commercial doesn't mean you'll go ahead and buy thing. You make your own decisions. Other people's appearances are no different in that regard - nobody can make you do a thing just by dressing in certain way.


Round of applause. 



Greyhart said:


> I'd say all types are likely to type as INxJ at some point. xD[/quotes]
> 
> ...Even INxJs? Lol.
> 
> A lot of them mistype as INxPs, believe it or not. A few on this board were mistyped as such until they realized they know what's really going on... and my INFJ friend mistyped herself as an INTP. I recommended her to fill out Entopic's Q. You actually typed her. I wonder if you can remember. It screwed her up... she still rarely talks about it, but she switched her type anyway. That's why I had her fill out the Q... no way I could lay down the news independently. My heart couldn't take it. lol. Ni is crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> But even if you are inside your home you'll come into contact with something humans made. Like I have this dinosaur toy before me. She's brachiosaurus from a cartoon. Based on her design, I can made an assumption that she was meant to convey "I am a kind grandma" feeling due to expression, extra-wrinkles and soft purple colors chosen. Same for her friend - grandma styracosaurus who, judging my coloration, was meant to be black. Quick googling confirms that suspicion since she was voiced by black actress and cartoon characters are often designed around their voice actors' appearances even though, when dubbed into other languages, that connection is lost.
> 
> SEE? CHILDREN'S TOY FROM MCDONALDS WAS MADE WITH MANIPULATION IN MIND. BURN YOUR POSSESSIONS. BURN YOUR HOUSE. REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOTHING BUT NEURONS THAT PROJECT THEMSELVES INTO THE WORLD. BURN YOURSELF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *insert gif here*
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 25 my mother still can't reconcile with the fact that I am an adult. :| Probably not helped by the fact that I got most excited about dinosaur movie and now can't shut up about finding right kind of raptor toys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never outgrew animation and my mother always commented "Aw... it's so cute.. you're still a child" (no sarcasm, btw). Pissed me off royally. Jurassic World was good. But dw about being an adult... I still can't reconcile the fact that I am actually 21. WTF.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> dayumn hoopla always so eloquent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I should do a TED talk.
> 
> This thread triggers a lot of creative writing pieces for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> for both me AND other people. My friend wears girly lolita fashion because it gives her power over herself. Always assume that others can have radically different perspective on things. It'll make you mentally richer in returns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I just... really love when people realize that clothes equal power because you're controlling how others perceive you. More people need to see it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer dresses (not in a small part because it's a complete outfit - you don't need to match top and bottom, and can just throw it into washing machine like that without worrying that your dark jeans will color your light tee) but I also hate shaving my legs but too insecure to go with hairy calves. So yeeey, jeans!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I used to sneak shaving at 9-10 and honestly panicked when my legs were fuzzy.
> 
> Now I go on and off with shaving and not shaving for feminist, environmental, economical and convenience reasons... but self consciousness gets to me too much to 100% subvert society. ):
> 
> Oh the evolution... 10 year old me would resent present me.
> 
> Also I want to live in Ukraine now... gorgeous picture.
> 
> 
> 
> tine said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it could be more of a nurture thing, but sadly cant add much
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...That is unfortunate, because I would love an answer. Environmentally triggered???? I know for me... those sorts of thoughts were not inspired by background. If I would have told my mother the thoughts I had... she would have been like O_O
> 
> 
> 
> Paradise Rain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that I am no stranger to thinking "what if I am in a coma, and I am living in a limbo realm, disguised as reality?". WTF is reality? Reality is what I make real, therefore how is it trustworthy? Is it my reality or real reality? But who determines this?
> 
> "Maybe we are all just souls, injected into a synthetic brain, and we see out of 3D eyes, but the eyes and brains are programmed to see what we are programmed to see?".
> 
> "What if our whole life is a figment of our imagination based on the history of ourselves in our last living thoughts looking back on our life or we were put in a machine at some point in our 'real' life just to imagine our own life as we desire it to be and when we wake up we realize that's not the life we wanted so we can go back in the machine and make another life creating a new life or universe...?"
> 
> Then I snap out of it, and tell myself it isn't logical for many reasons. But... what if I'm programmed to think that?  LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My everyday thoughts.
> 
> *you* should look into solipsism. It may provide peace to these very thoughts... or it will serve as paranoia fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> Paradise Rain said:
> 
> 
> 
> "What is life is one big Truman Show?".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jim Carrey is a shitty actor but somehow he is hired to act in spectacular serious films. What a great movie. I loved the very idea that my entire life is set up to be a reality show... how creepy. I thought about it for days.
> 
> I could go off on that movie but unless you request, I'll refrain.  This is already TL;DR
> 
> 
> 
> Paradise Rain said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Or the Matrix. ..?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never seen it, but based on the thoughts it will likely invoke, I should.
> 
> 
> 
> Princess Langwidere said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly think we should all work to look as good as possible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NOOO!!!! This is what I hate about society!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Princess Langwidere said:
> 
> 
> 
> I turn 21 in 2 months.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you really 3 months younger than me? You are so mature for your age. You make me feel like a 5 year old.
> 
> 
> 
> Princess Langwidere said:
> 
> 
> 
> But yeah, I'm not a proponent of just sitting on your bum trying to feel good about yourself, if I was any better mood I'd be very strict with myself but atm I'm more at a 'if you can keep things from getting worse that's still better' and hoping to hold that camp until I work up the motivation to really improve. Which maybe...will be tomorrow?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> You are so pretty btw... I don't think the fact you aren't petite negates your sexiness, but I understand how you may feel insecure.
> 
> If I remember correctly you once mentioned you feel like an Adele rather than a Megan Fox type? I could dress up like a dominatrix and I would still allude cuteness over hotness. Sexy cute is not the same as hot. My features are too small and innocent. I used to despise it because I wanted to be a fox... until I started idolizing women like Britney Murphy (RIP <3) and Drew Barrymore. Stunningly attractive... sexy in their own right... but cute and not hot. Essentially, I used to worry way too much about what men thought of me.
> 
> 
> 
> Princess Langwidere said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm weirdly proud of my embroidery skills. They are not good, I think it's just when I was younger I viewed embroidery as this ridiculously complicated grown-up thing and the image stuck so when I do it at all it's like...a miracle!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting! I loved sewing... I fail. I've had friends try to teach me... forget it. I can only hand stitch. I didn't view embroidery as an adult thing... I felt Victorian or something. But I didn't have the proper materials and so I failed when I tried to teach myself. never got back into it, but I want to so badly now. I love what people on etsy come up with. I'd love to see some of your work.
> 
> 
> 
> Princess Langwidere said:
> 
> 
> 
> And actual writing. Deep in my heart I believe everything I've ever written is pure gold. Spoiler: it's not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm the opposite. I feel like everything I write is innately and insanely reprehensible. lol That's why I rarely share it.
> 
> 
> 
> Princess Langwidere said:
> 
> 
> 
> as I was going to sleep I was sent into an unusual-for-me solipsistic crisis. The only reason I logged in again. I blame you, I hope you know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ...Aren't I partially to blame? I'm not a villain for the evulz... but for the fame and glory. :angry: Give credit when it's due.
> 
> 
> 
> ProtoCosmos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity isn't the real problem, it's the outside context. I would almost say I'm agoraphobic but then, I don't even get panic attacks or anything, so that's probably unrelated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you wanna discuss agoraphobia I'm your girl. I haven't experienced it in over a year... but I know the shit can crop up if I get into panic attack mode. The fact I am awake at 4:30 am is a stupid fucking idea. Not sleeping triggers anxiety and there is nothing worse than dreading the outside world. Of course if I told people IRL they would assume I am lying... because you can't improve anxiety of course. >_>
> 
> For me it was social anxiety + if I panic outside.... am trapped somewhere with no help.... yeah. Good times.
> 
> 
> 
> ProtoCosmos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I should stop worrying but it's hard, mostly because I feel bad for those who are unaware.
> I would feel selfish about being conscious of things while some people are not, it's exactly as if I was suffering from some unknown kind of survivor's guilt
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think those who are expecting the romantic aspect deserve awareness. I had a friend who just could not comprehend that her "boyfriends" just wanted to fuck her. I would try to hint they were merely flings... it went over her head. Now that I realize that this was instinctively what you were getting at, and not people who consent behind this sort of manipulation... I understand. I thought you were chewing out people who engage in that kind of stuff entirely. All I could think was "Really... people don't have the right to go to a club and wear a slutty dress to flirt and pick up men?" But I would say that your angle here is understandable and that I fully agree.
> 
> Also since greyhart questioned your enneagram I have to say... your reasoning behind all of this strikes me as low order Fe... wanna consider Ti dom for yourself?
> 
> @ProtoCosmos That enneagram test looks interesting. Suppose I'll waste even more time. Thanks a lot.
Click to expand...


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> My view on fashion and clothes is basically this: regardless of whether you prefer thinking about it as self-expression or image for outside world, take a chill-pill, it's still just pieces of fabrics, it's really not a big deal.
> 
> In fact, food you eat is a much bigger deal - for one what you eat is used to grow and repair your body and then there are things that actually affect your mind - coffee, sugar, drugs, and vitamin B deficiency.





> In conclusion, humans confusing me, I want to live with science, math, and tech gadgets.


That's the dream of every NP's, I bet



> Brain: heh, look at that slut.
> You: don’t be a judgmental shit.
> Brain: but...
> You: I SAID NO.


That's it, more or less, it actually goes like

Brain : Slut at 6 o' clock, wake the fuck up, subconscious ! 
Subconscious : What's this shit all about ?
Brain : Person making is fake smiles and fake laughs to other people, while wearing whore clothing, she's also annoyingly twirling her hair in front of males while also checking her thousand duckface selfies on her phone. It might be one of those flirting techniques.
Sub. : Leave that to the conscious...
Brain : Alright, then...
Conscious : Hey, what's happening ! *canned laughter* 
Brain : What should I do now ? 
Con. : Do you know that person ?
Brain : It's not in the database.
Con. : Tell me what you can do 
Brain : Think of something else or look away 
Con. : What are the things you can come up with to solve this ?
Brain : She looks like Jynx / Roxanne ! You don't have to wear that dress tonight / what would happen if you mix sodium bicarbonate with vinegar ? / Wait... TF2 got updated again? / At least she's getting money, unlike you, HA !
Con. : What's the point of this then
Brain : I'm just doing my job... So is she...
Sub. : SHE'S TRYING TO MESS PEOPLE UP ! CAN'T YOU SEE IT, YOU FREAKING RETARDS, GOSH !
Brain : What is she doing out of her Pokéball?
Sub. : OTHER PEOPLE WILL GET HURT, GOD DAMMIT !
Brain : I bet she has a whip. Whips are only useful in circuses with tigers and guess what : she looks like a fucking clown omg LOL 
Sub. : HAHAHA GOOD ONE ! xD
Con. : You guys are such judgemental bastards, let's end this.
Body : *Turns away while grunting with a death stare*
Brain : Am I at school or in a whorehouse ?
Con. : Neither.
Sub. : School is a whorehouse.


----------



## Tad Cooper

@hoopla - I think it's also been linked to disorders too and stuff, but am unsure!


----------



## Greyhart

OvalCat said:


> His three video nailed it.


He just nails it with every type tbh.



> Edit: when people say they want to question everything it makes me uncomfortable because how are they going to prove that there are protons, the earth is round and that there are people living in Australia and etc.
> I take it too literally but faiiithhh


That moment when you realize that you don't actually *know* anything you just chose to believe in one perception or another.











hoopla said:


> Either way... there is a sexual aspect to Lolita in a sense... it was coined from the book after all. Not that sweet Lolita is meant to be sexual, but the innocent, virginal purity is a fantasy for many. I doubt that's why your friend receives sexual comments but it's just a thought. According to wiki:


dis one good







hoopla said:


> Research shows that women are attracted to power and success due to evolutionary origins. I totally denied that. Suits don't do it for me. Then... I realized that maybe I am interested in success and money in a way. I cried because I'm shallow like everyone else. I mean... a rich CEO doesn't do it for me... but I like the idea I can be taken care of in case I can't fend for myself. So stereotypical! But I still demand personal space and the liberty to make my own decisions in relationships.
> 
> I almost dated this loser guy with no money who lived with his bro and that's when this all came to fruition. I couldn't dude... what if he wanted something serious. That couldn't be anything other than casual... plus there was no way I could hide that from my parents at the time. lol


Since I was very lil kid I dreamed about wearing very sharp-angled tailored clothes. I think it was due to growing and poverty and thus having to dress in hand-me-downs and lots stretchy any-size sporting clothes. So I wanted to wear what I don't. Now I just salivate at the sight of people that dress like that. Agent Carter show? Hold me panties!



hoopla said:


> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say all types are likely to type as INxJ at some point. xD
> 
> 
> 
> ...Even INxJs? Lol.
Click to expand...

Just proves my point!



> A lot of them mistype as INxPs, believe it or not. A few on this board were mistyped as such until they realized they know what's really going on... and my INFJ friend mistyped herself as an INTP. I recommended her to fill out Entopic's Q. You actually typed her. I wonder if you can remember. It screwed her up... she still rarely talks about it, but she switched her type anyway. That's why I had her fill out the Q... no way I could lay down the news independently. My heart couldn't take it. lol. Ni is crazy.


Oh, I totally believe it. It's old P vs J for introverted functions. Which is why I tend to think about socionics XXXj/p as more "correct". Pi is still perception. Similarly, when I thought I am an introvert (due to comparing myself to behavior of my ExFJs) I saw myself more INTJ than INTP because I didn't feel like I lead with judgement.



> I should do a TED talk.


You should.



> This thread triggers a lot of creative writing pieces for me.


Good.











> I just... really love when people realize that clothes equal power because you're controlling how others perceive you. More people need to see it that way.


Yes. Wheter it's because you want them to see "the way you are" or you want to project a specific image for image itself. BIRD FEATHERS.



> Also I want to live in Ukraine now... gorgeous picture.


Ironically it's from some RUssian region xD I just reblogged it recently.

My city is kind of like this









With lots of churches









One is like... 1100 years old or so. Tourists love those churches. But we are like "Eh, whatever" since no matter which part you live in there's a church nearby. All the while population is largely "casually religious" as in "don't slander the God and pray occasionally" but don't uphold any actual biblical laws. :|


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Greyhart

I'm your teacher and your essay score is A+ 

Always bothered me how men nipples were fine to expose in public.. but not a women's. I like the trans women point as well.

Don't forget that in certain countries and cultures... boobies are not sexualized at all. Africa springs to mind.

I was so happy when Free the Nipple popped up on my Netflix queue.

I'm watching the enneagram 6 vid now. 
@OvalCat We prove such things exist by questioning everything. If we didn't question, we wouldn't discover them. When we question, the big guys discover a standard for discovering these very things and implement this very standard to prove a hypothesis. Sometimes they are wrong too... so we question them and then they have to test again. We once thought the earth was flat... so that's why we need to question everything.

Then again... the only thing I can prove is that I exist... and my electrical impulses may be perceiving everything I'm encountering right now... it's all possibly an illusion. 

Also you're such a Te. Good God.
@tine You're thinking of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism_syndrome


----------



## Future2Future

hoopla said:


> I think those who are expecting the romantic aspect deserve awareness. I had a friend who just could not comprehend that her "boyfriends" just wanted to fuck her. I would try to hint they were merely flings... it went over her head. Now that I realize that this was instinctively what you were getting at, and not people who consent behind this sort of manipulation... I understand. I thought you were chewing out people who engage in that kind of stuff entirely. All I could think was "Really... people don't have the right to go to a club and wear a slutty dress to flirt and pick up men?" But I would say that your angle here is understandable and that I fully agree.


Thank you based Hoopla.:cheers2:




> Also since greyhart questioned your enneagram I have to say... your reasoning behind all of this strikes me as low order Fe... wanna consider Ti dom for yourself?


Well I've always been typed INTP by tests that aren't based on cognitive functions, so that's a possibility :laughing:


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> It is an interesting idea that solipsism is introverted. I agree that it is very introverted... in terms of Ti. Abstract logic. I don't think it is introversion in general, and I'm not sure if the other introverted types are naturally inclined to that sort of thinking like I imagine Ti is. I imagine Ne would enjoy it, since the only thing we know exists is ourselves... and I imagine Ne could explore the many angles of perception and all of that noise. I can certainly picture an Se solipsist. Many Se types actually love philosophy. If they find it engaging, they will soak up the entire theory, even if they can't quite understand it, just because it grips them. I think @OvalCat is a good example of that. I love watching her ask questions about this theory. It's as if it's interesting to her... and she wants to know everything about it. She can't always understand it, but just hearing about it stimulates her. So I wonder ovalcat, how do you feel about solipsism? Let's test phantom's idea.
> 
> It is Te doms I fail to imagine enjoying solipsism... too much Ti for their brains to handle. They'd probably see it as impractical.
> 
> 
> 
> My immature brain used to wonder about what existed a lot, but I didn’t have the capability to think profound things D8 I used to soak up philosophy but ultimately found it impractical 8D
> 
> This all vaguely relates to what is reality and may relate to solipsism but not directly touch on it:
> 
> I think I first thought about solipisim in an indirect manner when I was in sixth grade and my dad was talking about how he used to not be sure if humans existed or not and this could all be a dream and reality was just limited to oneself. I thought about it for a while and decided “no, we all share a reality, or else we all wouldn’t see that sesame seed on the table.” He told me about the quote, “I think, therefore I am.”
> Which I think it’s more “I believe, therefore I am” but I don’t think I fully understand the Descartes and might be nitpicking.
> 
> Then a year or two later I came across this quote from a childhood show, “...people live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true... that is how they define reality. But what does it mean to be correct or true? Merely vague concepts... their reality may all be an illusion.”
> And that just blew me away back then. That’s not exactly solipsism (quote: “the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist”) but the idea that there might be multiple realities. My reality is different from yours. And then maybe my reality is the only one that exists. Is there one true reality? What is true? Am I living in false delusion?
> 
> Are we all living our own realities, connecting to the one true one? Or are we all separate? Or do we all live in the same reality?
> I think the first one and last one seem similar but I don’t know how to explain the difference because they’re these pictures in my head.
> 
> Then my eighth grade teacher explained that there was an idea that if you didn’t know a chair existed, then it didn’t exist. If you weren’t aware of an existence or if it wasn’t in your realm of awareness then it was not reality. (lol a lot of people didn’t get it. I felt so proud that day because my teacher admitted that I explained it much better than she did.) We might live in a bubble of reality that expands like the universe with each new conception or chair.
> 
> I have no idea why anyone would want to believe it because there’s no way to prove that you are the only real thing and vice versa, there’s no way to prove that you aren’t the real thing and if you were making up reality, then why would you make it so painful? I think we live in a common true reality, but we all have our own realities stemming from that (or not).
> 
> That’s why @Princess Langwidere’s concept of truth confuses me. I think what we call true is ultimately different and how there’s one peak of truth. To me there are multiple peaks of truth and illusion, melding together in an atmosphere of truth and illusion. That’s why there are oxymorons and contradictions. That’s why my view on peanuts is equally valid as yours. I think that’s the Fi talking though hm. My values are as true as yours.
> 
> I don’t understand what’s deep anymore. I thought the meaning of life was the deepest question you could ask but to me, it now seems quite shallow… The world of theory seems to only reach a certain level before it totally disconnects. It seems finite.
> 
> On the other hand the world of facts seems infinite 8D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes... I am fickle with fashion. In high school I decided to dress gothic even though I had been dressing "normal" the entire week, and the kid at my table said "...I can't believe how different a person can look! (I typed him as an aspie (which he later confirmed) INTP actually. Interesting kid). It was so weird... I am really just me, it doesn't insinuate a change in personality. I love how differently people treat me based on how I dress. It makes me sad how image conscious we are, but it gives me a sort of power I can roll with. People can see me how I want them to see me. It's a mask in a way. You totally get it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I should try that, that seems fun
> 
> April Fool’s Day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @OvalCat We prove such things exist by questioning everything. If we didn't question, we wouldn't discover them. When we question, the big guys discover a standard for discovering these very things and implement this very standard to prove a hypothesis. Sometimes they are wrong too... so we question them and then they have to test again. We once thought the earth was flat... so that's why we need to question everything.
> 
> Then again... the only thing I can prove is that I exist... and my electrical impulses may be perceiving everything I'm encountering right now... it's all possibly an illusion.
> 
> Also you're such a Te. Good God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> '
> 
> 
> I think humans should question everything but my friends sound like conspiracy theorists by saying they, themselves, should question everything! The arguments in the textbooks sound reasonable about reality and I think I have no choice but to trust authority because I'm not capable of proving everything.
> 
> I believe in discovering and moving forward, but.
> 
> I don't know you have to believe _some_ things are true without question.
Click to expand...


----------



## Greyhart

I didn't actually _understood_ clothes and fashion until 20s. Like I could see that it has a context within society but couldn't fully grasp it. Kind of like advanced math - you need to understand basics first. So then it dawned on me "OOOOH, it's a social construct that helps establishing boundaries" kinda like much hated (by me) "How are you?" - it sets the scene. Or rather simplifies and speeds it up.

I also don't think perception of clothes is subconsciousness. It's likely "programmed" consciousness which means it can be reprogrammed by its user.

I still view @ProtoCosmos 's reasoning as coming from underlying current of feelings than Ti-Fe. 



Pressed Flowers said:


> Looking up Enneagram types like
> 
> 9 Social-A Gathering Place-Great Highland Village Texas Event Location-Weddings, Flower Mound Receptions, Lewisville Holiday Parties & Corporate Business Presentations


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Looking up Enneagram types like 

9 Social-A Gathering Place-Great Highland Village Texas Event Location-Weddings, Flower Mound Receptions, Lewisville Holiday Parties & Corporate Business Presentations


----------



## Pressed Flowers

On truth? 

Like you know the thing, if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, did a tree actually fall? I've never understood that. What does it matter, perception? In real time, in reality, a tree was standing, and is no longer upright. A tree fell. What does it matter, if no one heard the fall? 

This is rather how I feel about truth. It doesn't matter how few or how many people realize it... What's true will be true. And I think it's largely up to us to figure out where a tree was once upright even when we see no evidence for it, for us to figure out what is real and what is not real. 

In an... intangible way, of course. That's why the idea of truth is so funny to me, with me. I don't even know what it is. It's just... that rope, that indescribable rope. It isn't facts. It isn't, oh, the earth is warming. It's the current of the world, the substance of life, that thing you can only mentally feel to understand. My dream is to be mentally immersed in it, the undercurrent of reality. 

It is silly, but. It's my life.


----------



## Adena

I think I might make a new type me thread, I just don't know anymore. Though I think I don't even care at this point? lol


----------



## orbit

To me truth is like Ying and Yang. Opposites but equally true. 

And I agree with Bear (darn it started with H D8) about reality existing even if there's nobody to perceive it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

OvalCat said:


> To me truth is Ying and Yang. Opposites but equally true.
> 
> And I agree with Bear (darn it started with H D8) about reality existing even if there's nobody to perceive it.


Congratulations on the big 1000, Ovular Inquisition!


----------



## Future2Future

Speaking of which 





















> Mfw not giving the slightest damn about my reputation



Greyhart said:


> I still view @ProtoCosmos 's reasoning as coming from underlying current of feelings than Ti-Fe.


Ti appears to be almost as strong as Fi, and Fe stronger than Si on cognitive tests, could it be that I'm mixing both or I'm just mislead (like 99% of the time) ? :suspicion:


----------



## Greyhart

Fi is much unloved (or _hated_ by ExTPs) function for TPs. Something iffy about your answering. Your Te should be higher than Fe actually.

That being said, tests are unreliable.


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> Fi is much unloved (or _hated_ by ExTPs) function for TPs. Something iffy about your answering. Your Te should be higher than Fe actually.
> 
> That being said, tests are unreliable.


I hate you too.


----------



## Immolate

So much to read. So much to agree/disagree with.


----------



## orbit

Pressed Flowers said:


> Looking up Enneagram types like
> 
> 9 Social-A Gathering Place-Great Highland Village Texas Event Location-Weddings, Flower Mound Receptions, Lewisville Holiday Parties & Corporate Business Presentations


You can start your cult there
@shinynotshiny, I had a bunch of stuff especially @ElliCat's that I have to reply to but I don't remember where anything is D8 so I have given up.


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> Fi is much unloved (or _hated_ by ExTPs) function for TPs. Something iffy about your answering. Your Te should be higher than Fe actually.
> 
> That being said, tests are unreliable.


I personally freaking hate having to rely on my feelings to make *any* decisions, that being said, I only do it at appropriate times. 
If someone asks me how I feel about something, I give my thoughts first, feelings second.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Can ISFP kids (or IFP kids I guess) need a lot of time with people? Like they really hate being alone, but they still seem to be Introverted Feeling dominant? 

("Asking for a friend" lol)


----------



## orbit

Is Statistics is like Ti->Te? 

There's a parameter which is the true mean of an infinite amount of trials but lol, no way to know that so we'll collect a finite amount and test that hypothesis and assume the statistic has a good probability of being in the range of the parameter.
@Pressed Flowers, I love being alone but at the same time when I meet people I have to talk to them. Which is why I avoid meeting them but I just talk, talk, talk. If I'm in a bad mood and refuse to talk eventually I'll become better in someone's presence and talk even more. 

I obviously spend time on here so I guess you can be an extroverted socially and introverted in cognition. 

And what is a lot? 

Unless I'm ESFP like @hoopla is subtly suggesting (or I'm just imagining things) XP


----------



## Pressed Flowers

OvalCat said:


> Is Statistics is like Ti->Te?
> 
> There's a parameter which is the true mean of an infinite amount of trials but lol, no way to know that so we'll collect a finite amount and test that hypothesis and assume the statistic has a good probability of being in the range of the parameter.


I hated statistics. It just proved to me that numbers used in proof of a point are quite meaningless. Any number can be manicured to look pretty. 

But you already know my opinions there.


----------



## Adena

@Greyhart why xxTPs hate Fi?


----------



## Greyhart

Huh, so I did that test too. Aspie Quiz









Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 127 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 85 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)

Nah. I'd notice.


----------



## Immolate

I think the biggest pet peeve I came across is the idea that women have an evolutionary predisposition to feel attraction towards power. This is an idea you'll frequently come across in evolutionary psychology, and I think evolutionary psychology is mostly bullshit because it tends to focus on biology at the expense of sociocultural influence. It can read like a very one-dimensional exploration of human behavior and motivation. It's like that fiasco a few years ago where an evolutionary psychologist argued darker-skinned women are objectively less attractive because evolution~


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> Huh, so I did that test too. Aspie Quiz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 127 of 200
> Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 85 of 200
> You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)
> 
> Nah. I'd notice.


I took it and it was like "yes you definitely have this" and like... Specialists just laugh when I bring it up because obviously I don't have emotional or social blindness I guess?

I actually think GAD can share some characteristics with autism... outwardly. I was thinking about that the other night. 

And of course having already existing neurological conditions didn't help my score on it.


----------



## Future2Future

Pressed Flowers said:


> Can ISFP kids (or IFP kids I guess) need a lot of time with people? Like they really hate being alone, but they still seem to be Introverted Feeling dominant?
> 
> ("Asking for a friend" lol)


I'm a social scale chameleon : I love being with people but only if they are close people. I spend like 33.333333% of my time with them and the other 66.666666% alone. Like a Li-po battery, I need a lot of time to recharge but not too much because I risk exploding (= complaining) . :crazy:

However when it comes to strangers I'm protective as fuck and I rather stay home (or with people I know *well* if I'm in a good mood) rather than dealing with those terrestrial extraterrestrials .

TL;DR : Yes.


----------



## orbit

Pressed Flowers said:


> I hated statistics. It just proved to me that numbers used in proof of a point are quite meaningless. Any number can be manicured to look pretty.
> 
> But you already know my opinions there.


Oh I agree with you on the usage of statistics, I know firsthand how corrupt it can be because I ran out of time and wasn't completely random at points. 

Just the thought behind it interests me. I think the parameter is reality and then the possible statistics are our realities. It's a metaphor (ew)


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> I personally freaking hate having to rely on my feelings to make *any* decisions, that being said, I only do it at appropriate times.
> If someone asks me how I feel about something, I give my thoughts first, feelings second.





Gray Romantic said:


> @Greyhart why xxTPs hate Fi?


Questions that make me majorly uncomfrotable and angry because I'm not sure how answer them
"How do you feel about this"
"What do you feel?"
"How it makes you feel?"
"Which is your favorite _____?"
"What's your relationship with _____?"

Using Fi goes against both of my judging functions.

In socionics Fi in ILE is

* *






> Unstable in maintaining psychological distance. May have trouble making clear attraction. Can hide their personal sentiments when pushed and avoids the public examination of their desires. ILE's tend to be unaware of how others view them relationship wise, unstable in levels of trust. View relationships skeptically unless legitimized. This can result in a mistrust of others and a general wariness regarding others' opinions of them, potentially causing irrational behaviors based on misconceptions in this area. They appreciate people who can reassure them of the status of a relationship.
> 
> Emotional responses to trauma will often manifest themselves several years later, triggered by things that seem to have little to do with the event responsible for the reaction e.g. abandonment issues surface after visiting a nursing home.
> 
> An ILE may view many accepted moral standards with scorn if they do not make logical sense to him and may be frustrated if convenient loopholes in a system are said to be 'out of bounds' morally. Indeed, the ILE may come to the conclusion that if he has not done anything legally wrong, then he could not possibly have done something morally wrong. Such thinking may bemuse more ethical types. In more extreme circumstances, the ILE will see morality as just another system to be taken apart and studied, shocking types who value moral traditions when he uses logic and his clever insight to dissolve moral imperatives. e.g. "You may view human sacrifice as something inherently wrong but that's just a result of your upbringing. If you were raised an Aztec you would have seen it as a remarkable thing, believing it to be responsible for keeping your crops watered and the sun moving across the sky."





and in INTP

* *






> The LII is acutely aware of social conventions, such as saying "please" and "thank you", and expends much effort to conform to these rules to maintain the status of a "polite" person. But he tends to overdo the conventions themselves, as opposed to the relationships they are supposed to establish, and so ends up stepping on other people's toes (violating some less easily definable convention which he would never really want to conform to anyways). He prefers an easy-going environment where such conventions don't exist in the first place. When in a heated argument, an LII can alienate others by his natural tendency to hold and defend strong opinions (Ti).
> 
> If asked to express a unique, personal sentiment, such as a favorite color or football team, the LII may find difficulty choosing if there is no "obvious" answer. He often feels like he has no real personal, subjective feelings at all, and usually has to make a conscious decision where other types could easily supply an instinctive reaction.
> 
> The LII also is very sensitive about how other people see him, feeling depressed if he has affections that are not returned. For this reason, he tends to avoid expressing signals that show interest in certain people (as opposed to signals about his general mood and demeanor, which he feels to be much more natural), but of course it just aggravates his loneliness, instead of relieving it.


----------



## Greyhart

Pressed Flowers said:


> I took it and it was like "yes you definitely have this" and like... Specialists just laugh when I bring it up because obviously I don't have emotional or social blindness I guess?
> 
> I actually think GAD can share some characteristics with autism... outwardly. I was thinking about that the other night.
> 
> And of course having already existing neurological conditions didn't help my score on it.


Hmm, I didn't reply to "emotional or social blindness" questions positively I think. Actually a lot of what is "aspie" ralated there as I saw as high Ti preference. That being said I do find it very hard to look into eyes of person I talk to. It's EXTREMELY distracting. My eyes always wonder wildly when I talk to others. Actually, rewatch my video - the way I constantly change what I look at is what I do when talking to others too. When interpreting others facial expressions I try not to focus on any part and do it when they are not looking.

P.S. just to clarify I don't think I'm aspie. Tests pick on T>F preferences probably combined with high N.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@ProtoCosmos @ what even is your name now @OvalCat Hmm... I ask because like, obviously, my cousin. I thought he was Se-dominant, because.... he's a typical Se-using kid. But he's also not objective at all, he needs to hide his emotions, he likes to be secretive about his feelings. And he is _always_ wanting to be right next to me, to play with me, but then he likes to do things inexplicably. His mom's an ESFP, and I remember her being a lot more... open when she was a kid. Like she wasn't always talking like her son is, but she was more "okay I don't like this but I'll do it" and just jumping in to things while he's more... "no I don't want to do it so I'll run away!!" He has to process things.


----------



## Greyhart

My candy preferences: orange>red>>green>>>yellow.

Now my candy bowl is all yellow. :dry:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> My candy preferences: orange>red>>green>>>yellow.
> 
> Now my candy bowl is all yellow. :dry:


oh my gob

i was thinking just like yesterday "why is orange candy even a thing absolutely no one likes orange"


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> Questions that make me majorly uncomfrotable and angry because I'm not sure how answer them
> "How do you feel about this"
> "What do you feel?"
> "How it makes you feel?"
> "Which is your favorite _____?"
> "What's your relationship with _____?"
> 
> Using Fi goes against both of my judging functions.
> 
> In socionics Fi in ILE is
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and in INTP
> 
> * *












Does *questioning* every single part of my ethics and that of others *impersonally* (based on random conditions I could come up with for example) rather than going with what is generally accepted and applied has to do with Fi or Ti?


----------



## Immolate

Results~










I put down diagnosed social phobia, so I'm sure it took that into account.

@Greyhart yellow → orange → green → red


----------



## Greyhart

OvalCat said:


> @Pressed Flowers, I'm still trying to explain ethics and crap. I'm thinking about it still. I probably botched this:
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All my life, the only thing that will remain the same will be me. What's going to drive me forward? My feelings and values and the only way for me to get anywhere and to find a lifestyle that fits me is for them to be consistent and pure. How else will I know where to go?
> 
> We're all such individuals... And it's just hard to adapt to the subjunctive values of the situation. It feels impure and inconsistent and I don't like it.
> The facts will change but my inner world will not because it's what guides me.
> 
> An ethic is a subjunctive value, I think?
> 
> The warmth of a human comes from the human, and not the outside atmosphere. That's what some dude said.
> You are more conditional in your values than me. I am more unconditional?
> I am me, and you are you and basing ethics on the situation ignores that





> The warmth of a human comes from the human, and not the outside atmosphere.


This is interesting. For me "warmth" is always created by others _or_ generated by me as a _response_ to others. I'm kind of a vampire this regard - I hunger for people that shower me in their earnest sincerity. Like a mirror I need something to reflect the light. ewww that was poetic


----------



## orbit

Blue Flare said:


> I haven't read much of his books, so I can't confirm if that typing makes sense or not. It was too damn verbose that my mind got a tl;dr.
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard something like this from one of my ESFP friends, she prefers anime as it usually have a deeper meaning than Western cartoons. She also isn't too fond of medieval fantasy as she can't experience that at all IRL, so she prefers slice of life stories and anything that can really happen.


Slice of life is one of my favorites. Why I like short stories.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

OvalCat said:


> Slice of life is one of my favorites. Why I like short stories.


Nice, my friend also draws slice of life comics, as it's easier for her to deal with things that she actually experienced.


----------



## Immolate

OvalCat said:


> Slice of life is one of my favorites. Why I like short stories.


Slice of life, as in ordinary life with some stuff packed in?


----------



## orbit

Greyhart said:


> This is interesting. For me "warmth" is always created by others _or_ generated by me as a _response_ to others. I'm kind of a vampire this regard - I hunger for people that shower me in their earnest sincerity. Like a mirror I need something to reflect the light. ewww that was poetic


That's why it's "gross" to me. It's conditional and what happens if you freeze?

Edit: Fi can freeze too. It just takes longer.

I have no idea what I'm spewing out is correct or not. Well I think it is for me but as everyone knows what is true for me isn't true for everyone

Seeing my name as OvalCat is weird. I shall return to CuriCat or Curi as soon as possible.


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> I know that Hannibal is streamed on Amazon.
> 
> @ProtoCosmos maybe this
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> socionics Fe
> 
> Tries to find a place where he is treated well by everybody. If someone expresses negative feelings towards him (for example, in a domestic fight his wife says, "I hate you"), then he takes this literally and tries to get out of there immediately and find another place where he is treated better. Therefore, they find it extremely difficult to be in places where they do not know how others are predisposed towards them. Appearance of someone who readily welcomes them is perceived as "the appearance of Christ to the people." Very suggestible when someone tells him about what relations exist between people. He likes positive emotions of other people, becomes as if charged up by them. Moves in overall direction of prevailing positive tone in emotions and avoids places with negative emotional charge. He does not like intrigue and gossip, feels uneasy in such situations since here he can easily fall victim and be put at a disadvantage. Therefore, he is critical of those who are not direct in communication, who speak in private and not openly, is suspicious of this. Relations between people should always be open, honest, and kind. What is said about one's relations should coincide with one's actions, and if not - then something is wrong. Saying that you love a person it should be demonstrated in action as well, and if your words are not visible - then they are not true. Very suspicious about predisposition of others towards him, suspects some kind of conspiracy. Even if suspicions are due to small detail, he either immediately tries to break off relations with a person or to exclude his or her from his inner circle, reducing contact with them to a minimum. Because of this he can considered a defector - if he finds people who treat him better he may ally with them, finding this a substantial enough argument to change sides. May fall victim to sycophancy.
> 
> socionics Fi
> 
> This person is very tenacious in his attachments and conservative in his feelings and attitudes towards another, keeps true to the feelings he develops. If someone does not agree with his valuation, it irritates him immensely. Someone who has deceived him once he will consider a liar forever, even if the person changes. Due to this, from aside he is often seen as a moralist, as these feelings and evaluations are the main part of his life. The product of leading function is often not shown to the outside world but instead is kept inside. Thus this happens most often when something annoys him in terms of its values. The negative is often seen more clearly than the positive. Thus he may hold onto such false impressions. Attempting to challenge their assessment is useless, for them something is just "good" and something is just "bad" and they will not be able to communicate clearly why this is so, except for making some general statements. Tries to keep himself near those with whom positive relationship was once established. Their division of people into "good" and "bad" is very clear-cut. The "good" people are liked and the "bad" people are despised; often this is hidden but if the person evoke a strongly negative response they may express it openly. If there are not enough people around him whom he values, this may inspire in him aggression, because this means that he doesn't exist. He is very sensitive to such concepts as duty, honor, dignity, morality, that is - to his own perception of these concepts. For him his own feelings, emotions, attitudes are important, not external, public ones, which may not be given any importance. He rarely changes his attitude towards anyone, especially from low evaluation to a higher one. He has a large supply of different emotions and their various nuances. He is very sensitive to other people deviating from his own moral code - it is as if he is constantly controlling them in this respect and taking care of them. His positive feelings are something that should be confirmed by behavior that coincides with his expectations of what is "good" and "bad". In society, they are sometimes misunderstood since their ethics are personal, subjective, and therefore may deviate significantly from what is accepted as a norm. But he is deeply entrenched into this subjective perception, thus his only resort is to find those who agree with him and accept him for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also if anybody else wants to try you http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/589778-am-i-superhybrid-delirous-20q.html


I'm much closer to Fi than to Fe though there are a few correlating things here and there. 
There are things I don't agree with with Fi though, like 



> Someone who has deceived him once he will consider a liar forever, even if the person changes. Due to this, from aside he is often seen as a moralist, as these feelings and evaluations are the main part of his life.


It all depends on the situation : if someone I know well has deceived me once, I would give him other chances until I've had enough. If someone I don't know deceived me once, I wouldn't consider the person a liar but just "unfaithful". I don't think black or white, I think grey. :ghost:


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> I'm much closer to Fi than to Fe though there are a few correlating things here and there.
> There are things I don't agree with with Fi though, like
> 
> 
> It all depends on the situation : if someone I know well has deceived me once, I would give him other chances until I've had enough. If someone I don't know deceived me once, I wouldn't consider the person a liar but just "unfaithful". I don't think black or white, I think grey. :ghost:


Note that those descriptions are cumulative traits of said function in X type. Obviously, you don't have to embody every single aspect presented there. It described trends of sorts, possible shortcomings and pitfalls, overindulgence and deprivation.

In socionics INFPs have strong Fe (but undervalued, "ignoring") INTPs have strong Te (again, undervalued).

Socionics Model A

Block 4, Function 7.



OvalCat said:


> That's why it's "gross" to me. It's conditional and what happens if you freeze?


You invent a robot companion. Or imagine one until you do. Or become the Joker.



> Edit: Fi can freeze too. It just takes longer.
> 
> I have no idea what I'm spewing out is correct or not. Well I think it is for me but as everyone knows what is true for me isn't true for everyone
> 
> Seeing my name as OvalCat is weird. I shall return to CuriCat or Curi as soon as possible.


There's no right and wrong here. You write what you think (or feel).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I got through the first book and a third of the second. Not seeing the INTJ. What do you think, @Pressed Flowers?


Considering he apparently still doesn't know how he's going to end the series, I would say Ne? 

I don't know. I just absolutely love it, ASOIAF/GOT. It's one of the few things I feel I can say I am an actual "fan" of. 

And... It reminds me of my own story in some ways. Namely all the characters, the intertwining plots. 

But with my story, it all has purpose. I am trying to illuminate humanity. I feel like GRRM is just playing with ideas and hypotheticals at times, which always strikes me as Ne. 

As for his judgment functions, not sure. When I see his interviews, honestly I see no Fe. He's abrasive, but doesn't seem to care? Then again, I haven't seen many of his interviews. 

Considering he relates most to Tyrion + the world building + weak weak weak Fe I would gesticulate he's an INTP. Which I guess makes sense, he quite reminds me of my INTP bestie.


----------



## Future2Future

OvalCat said:


> Seeing my name as OvalCat is weird. I shall return to CuriCat or Curi as soon as possible.


CattyCuri ?











Greyhart said:


> Note that those descriptions are cumulative traits of said function in X type. Obviously, you don't have to embody every single aspect presented there. It described trends of sorts, possible shortcomings and pitfalls, overindulgence and deprivation.


I actually laughed at the domestic fight scenario because of how unrelated it was.




> In socionics INFPs have strong Fe (but undervalued, "ignoring") INTPs have strong Te (again, undervalued).
> 
> Socionics Model A
> 
> Block 4, Function 7.


But even then it would be weird because people keep typing me as Fi-Te and tests as Ti-Fe.

It's like asking if a cup of water is half full or half empty when it's completely full with fluids and gasses, air being one of them.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> Considering he apparently still doesn't know how he's going to end the series, I would say Ne?
> 
> I don't know. I just absolutely love it, ASOIAF/GOT. It's one of the few things I feel I can say I am an actual "fan" of.
> 
> And... It reminds me of my own story in some ways. Namely all the characters, the intertwining plots.
> 
> But with my story, it all has purpose. I am trying to illuminate humanity. I feel like GRRM is just playing with ideas and hypotheticals at times, which always strikes me as Ne.
> 
> As for his judgment functions, not sure. When I see his interviews, honestly I see no Fe. He's abrasive, but doesn't seem to care? Then again, I haven't seen many of his interviews.
> 
> Considering he relates most to Tyrion + the world building + weak weak weak Fe I would gesticulate he's an INTP. Which I guess makes sense, he quite reminds me of my INTP bestie.


I agree with the points you've made


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> I actually laughed at the domestic fight scenario because of how unrelated it was.





> (for example, in a domestic fight his wife says, "I hate you")


Why is it unrelated? I can see that scenario working for me.



> Therefore, they find it extremely difficult to be in places where they do not know how others are predisposed towards them.


I guess I differ in the way that I actively work on finding out. Directly asking or at least interacting to gauge it.



> But even then it would be weird because people keep typing me as Fi-Te and tests as Ti-Fe.
> 
> It's like asking if a cup of water is half full or half empty when it's completely full with fluids and gasses, air being one of them.


Tests depend on how you view yourself. *shrug* Maybe they are right. Maybe you are actually type 4 INTP. Or type 5 INFP. Or type 6 altogether. If it helps, in October all my tests showed me as NTJ, INTJ mostly. And that's like not a single function in common.

@Pressed Flowers @shinynotshiny I assumed ENTP for him. But I can see point about weak-ass Fe.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> @_Pressed Flowers_ @_shinynotshiny_ I assumed ENTP for him. But I can see point about weak-ass Fe.


He could be an "eugh people" ENTP.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> He could be an "eugh people" ENTP.


Noo, let me believe that I will be Fe supreme by his age!


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> Why is it unrelated? I can see that scenario working for me.


There's no context, it could be anything like :
- The guy's wife hating him
- The guy's wife trolling him
- The guy's wife being temporarily upset with him
- The guy's wife quoting someone saying "I hate you"
- The guy's wife answer to the question "What trees do you hate" to which she replied "I hate yew" which he misinterpreted and took personally then felt like ending a 60 years-old marriage out of utter selfishness and senility.




> I guess I differ in the way that I actively work on finding out. Directly asking or at least interacting to gauge it.


Same :happy:




> Tests depend on how you view yourself. *shrug* Maybe they are right. Maybe you are actually type 4 INTP. Or type 5 INFP. Or type 6 altogether.


I really don't know because type 4 is too deeply emotional , type 5 is too "logical" and type 6 sounds like the description of a paranoid schizophrenic workaholic businessman. 



> If it helps, in October all my tests showed me as NTJ, INTJ mostly. And that's like not a single function in common


I scored ENTP about a year ago and INTJ less than three months ago. I don't know if I'm a shapeshifter or anything but it's quite scary now that I think of it. 
They all had one thing in common though : Se was completely dead.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Noo, let me believe that I will be Fe supreme by his age!


If it makes you happy :tranquillity:


----------



## Tad Cooper

OvalCat said:


> Slice of life is one of my favorites. Why I like short stories.


I really like slice of life too, and novellas/short stories (although full length novels are brilliant). Do you know why you like them? ( also asking this to @Blue Flare )


----------



## Future2Future

ProtoCosmos said:


> I scored ENTP about a year ago and INTJ less than three months ago. I don't know if I'm a shapeshifter or anything but it's quite scary now that I think of it.
> They all had one thing in common though : Se was completely dead.


I actually kept screenshots, sadly not of the ENTP one (I didn't care much at the time).

Here's the INTJ one I was talking about :











And an older INTP/ENTP/INFP one :










It guess all that stuff depends on *mood* but results are globally the same. :eagerness:


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> There's no context, it could be anything like :
> - The guy's wife hating him
> - The guy's wife trolling him
> - The guy's wife being temporarily upset with him
> - The guy's wife quoting someone saying "I hate you"
> - The guy's wife answer to the question "What trees do you hate" to which she replied "I hate yew" which he misinterpreted and took personally then felt like ending a 60 years-old marriage out of utter selfishness and senility.


The context is _a close person tell you something mean during the fight_. It roots deep within me even if they apologize. I still doubt, were they really just mean angry or it's what they normally think but don't let themselves say it under normal circumstances? I've taken quite many insults thrown by my parents very literally and often accepted as truth about myself. Less so now but a much more younger. Same with friends, angry word will send me away since I would assume it to be true.

Watch this guy's videos https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXR35-N5N7rZaQ6kyM1AbVI_N6t6gKVj-

3 4 http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ation-rejection-wanted-1046.html#post18620234
5 http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...mation-rejection-wanted-853.html#post18432194
6 http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...mation-rejection-wanted-918.html#post18488970



ProtoCosmos said:


> I actually kept screenshots, sadly not of the ENTP one (I didn't care much at the time).
> 
> Here's the INTJ one I was talking about :
> 
> And an older INTP/ENTP/INFP one :
> 
> It guess all that stuff depends on *mood* but results are globally the same. :eagerness:


It's still just test results. I'm not Aspie but test told me I am high possibility Aspie.


----------



## owlet

@fair phantom I'm now getting a sense that I'm probably the tallest female here (5'11''). Also empathy is great, but sucks at the same time. I wish it had an off switch.




ElliCat said:


> I think so too. Showing that you've put a bit of extra effort into something for someone is always appreciated (or should be).
> 
> 
> For me it's more like, it feels weird to be complimented on something that I had no control over. Curly hair or small waist? Well thanks I guess, but I only have them because they run in the family. Just luck of the draw. Not much to do with what I actually think of as my "core". But my style is something that I do work on, and it expresses my likes and dislikes and things that I feel are closer to my actual personality, which is something that I do want to be seen and valued for.
> 
> 
> That might be true. I'm rarely approached by people when I'm going somewhere. Only when I've stopped or am trying to make myself walk more slowly (not nice to turn up to a venue all sweaty because I can't pace myself well).
> 
> 
> Noooo!!! That's always heartbreaking. I've had shirts that my mother has made me throw out because they were about to fall apart, but they were SO SOFT. SO SOFT. (Obviously they were just to wear around home. But still. SOFT.)
> 
> 
> Apparently it prevents the whole awkward "do they like me? do they not like me?" and you're supposed to do it only when you like someone. But I can't figure out what's flirting and what isn't. It's like if I don't want to be seen as flirtacious I have to keep deadpan and low-key, but if I do that I'm interpreted as cold and uncaring and basically I just can't win so I've stopped trying to play that game and just.... whatever.
> 
> 
> *melts*



Yes! Like when two of my friends made cupcakes for me and my sister because we'd just come back from Canada and Japan (her from Canada, me from Japan).


True, when I got comments like 'You're so tall' or the classic 'Twins!' as me and my sister walked along, I was a bit like 'Yep. That is true.' I'd much rather have comments about my writing or something...


I walk quite quickly most of the time and, as I said, I'm tall so I don't really worry about being approached.


D: I hate having to throw comfortable clothes away. It's so rare you can find something that fits perfectly and is made of the perfect material. Hm, is this tert (immature) Si?


I don't flirt. Ever. I also mostly come across as guarded and/or uninterested in people, so again it's not really a worry. Acting natural is best :ghost3: (as far as social anxiety will allow, at least)












@OvalCat If you like contemporary stories, try S.E. Hinton, Graham Marks or Chris Wooding. They were some of my favourites.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart you posted some of those Enneagram descriptions on your blog. did you not


----------



## Greyhart

Short people - rising tall people's self-esteem since height difference was invented.



tine said:


> @shinynotshiny - I'm 5'9'' so Im mega!


HEIGHT BUDDIES


----------



## Tad Cooper

shinynotshiny said:


> How
> 
> Always looking up at people, even girlfriends but that's okay I like being the little spoon and people never expect my murderous streak :very_drunk:


Haha it works well! I like small people and tall people pretty equally and dont mind looking up or down!


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Am I the only person who has associated Extroversion with Bigness and Introversion with Smallness?

And like I still kind of in the back of my consciousness question whether or not I am an E _because I am so tiny._

It makes no sense but tell my brain that.


----------



## Immolate

tine said:


> Haha it works well! I like small people and tall people pretty equally and dont mind looking up or down!


If I look down it's almost certain a child :cheers2:

However there's a certain satisfaction in having someone a lot bigger than you follow your direction eaceful:




Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only person who has associated Extroversion with Bigness and Introversion with Smallness?
> 
> And like I still kind of in the back of my consciousness question whether or not I am an E _because I am so tiny._
> 
> It makes no sense but tell my brain that.


I'd say it has a lot to do with the way society treats short/tall, with taller people presenting more "power" and confidence, there's more presence. I can see how that kind of treatment can lead someone to be more outgoing.


----------



## owlet

Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only person who has associated Extroversion with Bigness and Introversion with Smallness?
> 
> And like I still kind of in the back of my consciousness question whether or not I am an E _because I am so tiny._
> 
> It makes no sense but tell my brain that.


I find it funny, because I'm so tall so I should stand out, but I'm also very quiet and 'inward' or 'insular' so my energy (?) isn't noticed by others much and I've had classmates not realise I've been left behind when they left the classroom until they're pretty far away. I only know one tall extrovert, come to think of it. Most of my extroverted friends are small (between 5'0'' and 5'5'').


----------



## Tad Cooper

Greyhart said:


> Short people - rising tall people's self-esteem since height difference was invented.
> 
> 
> HEIGHT BUDDIES


Yay!! It's the best height!


shinynotshiny said:


> If I look down it's almost certain a child :cheers2:
> 
> However there's a certain satisfaction in having someone a lot bigger than you follow your direction eaceful:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say it has a lot to do with the way society treats short/tall, with taller people presenting more "power" and confidence, there's more presence. I can see how that kind of treatment can lead someone to be more outgoing.


Oh true! I have had 6' + people follow me! 
I see loads of stuff about short people power and none for the tall folk...maybe we're too powerful?


----------



## Immolate

tine said:


> Oh true! I have had 6' + people follow me!
> I see loads of stuff about short people power and none for the tall folk...maybe we're too powerful?


Perhaps because some people treat tall = power/confidence/presence, and shorter people need help~ asserting themselves.


----------



## owlet

tine said:


> I see loads of stuff about short people power and none for the tall folk...maybe we're too powerful?


It's true. The taller you are, the better you can channel magical powers.


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> It's true. The taller you are, the better you can channel magical powers.


First thought was: hobbits vs Gandalf


----------



## Tad Cooper

shinynotshiny said:


> Perhaps because some people treat tall = power/confidence/presence, and shorter people need help~ asserting themselves.


Ahhh yeah! Tall people always seem quieter/shyer to me though....



laurie17 said:


> It's true. The taller you are, the better you can channel magical powers.


Yes! We have great aqueducts!


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> First thought was: hobbits vs Gandalf


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Perhaps because some people treat tall = power/confidence/presence, and shorter people need help~ asserting themselves.


There was a girl who hated me and my friend was like "why would she hate you I don't understand" and I explained to her that she is... a pretty big person, a tall person. She's used to having power in that almost Darwinian natural realm that we all pretend isn't a thing. And then there's me, this tiny, semi-spunky girl who for whatever reason had something that made her jealous. A challenge in natural power dynamics.

I didn't even think it made full sense but my explanation stole my friend.


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> The context is _a close person tell you something mean during the fight_. It roots deep within me even if they apologize. I still doubt, were they really just mean angry or it's what they normally think but don't let themselves say it under normal circumstances? I've taken quite many insults thrown by my parents very literally and often accepted as truth about myself. Less so now but a much more younger. Same with friends, angry word will send me away since I would assume it to be true.


It would totally depend on context but if it were really meant as a direct personal attack, I would also get angry but in a passive aggressive manner, but I'd still think of the logical aspect before definitely entering "you-got-me-pissed" mode.


I have two different scenarios as an example : 

Small attack : 
Sb : "How could you be so stupid ?"
Me : "What makes you say that? "
Thoughts = "OMG what did I do wrong?"

Strong attack : 
Sb : "You're the dumbest motherfucker ever, asshole !"
Me : "OK, thanks for describing yourself to me, remember to brush your teeth after having your mouth this full of shit ! *with a sarcastic grin*"
Thoughts = "Eugh ! No sense of respect for other people, what an idiot...".


As a child if I were insulted, I would have ultimately told the person to bugger off, I used to take insults very seriously and if it were my parents (and especially my drill-sergeant-like dad) I wouldn't have reacted in front of them but be very angry and would have gone back to my room to vent off my rage by doing something more constructive than frowning and yelling back at them. 






> 3 4 http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ation-rejection-wanted-1046.html#post18620234
> 5 http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...mation-rejection-wanted-853.html#post18432194
> 6 http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...mation-rejection-wanted-918.html#post18488970


From these descriptions 5 is spot on, in comparison 4 seemed a bit like a cursed killjoy even though it's almost as deadly close.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> There was a girl who hated me and my friend was like "why would she hate you I don't understand" and I explained to her that she is... a pretty big person, a tall person. She's used to having power in that almost Darwinian natural realm that we all pretend isn't a thing. And then there's me, this tiny, semi-spunky girl who for whatever reason had something that made her jealous. A challenge in natural power dynamics.
> 
> I didn't even think it made full sense but my explanation stole my friend.


I've never experienced this, probably because girls/women around here aren't very tall. I was out with a friend the other day and we saw a very tall woman. Noteworthy.


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> It would totally depend on context but if it were really meant as a direct personal attack, I would also get angry but in a passive aggressive manner, but I'd still think of the logical aspect before definitely entering "you-got-me-pissed" mode.
> 
> 
> I have two different scenarios as an example :
> 
> Small attack :
> Sb : "How could you be so stupid ?"
> Me : "What makes you say that? "
> Thoughts = "OMG what did I do wrong?"
> 
> Strong attack :
> Sb : "You're the dumbest motherfucker ever, asshole !"
> Me : "OK, thanks for describing yourself to me, remember to brush your teeth after having your mouth this full of shit ! *with a sarcastic grin*"
> Thoughts = "Eugh ! No sense of respect for other people, what an idiot...".
> 
> 
> As a child if I were insulted, I would have ultimately told the person to bugger off, I used to take insults very seriously and if it were my parents (and especially my drill-sergeant-like dad) I wouldn't have reacted in front of them but be very angry and would have gone back to my room to vent off my rage by doing something more constructive than frowning and yelling back at them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From these descriptions 5 is spot on, in comparison 4 seemed a bit like a cursed killjoy even though it's almost as deadly close.


Type 5 INFP could be seen at INT type. I still see what you described as strong Fi type.

Do remember that enneagram is a lot about your weaknesses and failures,


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Type 5 INFP could be seen at INT type. I still see what you described as strong Fi type.
> 
> Do remember that enneagram is a lot about your weaknesses and failures,


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


> Type 5 INFP could be seen at INT type.,


Happened to me.

( @_shinynotshiny_ What do you think, relating to your thread?)


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> Type 5 INFP could be seen at INT type. I still see what you described as strong Fi type.
> 
> Do remember that enneagram is a lot about your weaknesses and failures,


I'm actually filling angelcat's questionnaire for a new thread.
I'll try to be as accurate as possible on this one, despite my brain overheating from the oven-like climate. :suspicion:


----------



## Immolate

laurie17 said:


> Happened to me.
> 
> ( @_shinynotshiny_ What do you think, relating to your thread?)


I don't know anymore :suspicion:


----------



## Greyhart

ProtoCosmos said:


> I'm actually filling angelcat's questionnaire for a new thread.
> I'll try to be as accurate as possible on this one, despite my brain overheating from the oven-like climate. :suspicion:


angelcat's is a very tiny one we did inside this thread. Pick bigger/expansive.



shinynotshiny said:


>


Suddenly feeling IxFx? ;D


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


>


This made me smirk!


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Suddenly feeling IxFx? ;D


:grumpy:


----------



## owlet

shinynotshiny said:


> I don't know anymore :suspicion:


Not knowing is the first step to true understanding.

Or something equally vague and motivational.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> Not knowing is the first step to true understanding.
> 
> Or something equally vague and motivational.


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> angelcat's is a very tiny one we did inside this thread. Pick bigger/expansive.
> 
> 
> Suddenly feeling IxFx? ;D


Which one should I pick?


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


>


----------



## owlet

Greyhart said:


>


But that means you only get 26 tries in total! :coldneko:


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> Curious, what did I do?


Made me laugh. I don't know. My boyfriend does it to me too - you're so funny in a ridiculous way but at the same time you make SO MUCH SENSE and dat Ne.

I don't know. Intelligence + interesting brain + certain kind of humour makes me weak in the knees.



> Don't be. I have more Fi friends and relatives than Fe. Maybe my being bffs with INFP for 18~ year buttered me up as FP magnet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Touching _my_ Fi though is like "Ew! Take it away!". Other people's Feelings are warm and very touch-able. How do I turn things into innuendos, it's a talent.


I was kind of curious about that, so thank you for answering a question that's been vaguely formed in the back of my mind for a while now.



laurie17 said:


> True, I suppose it could be the Fi attraction/repulsion plus Si expectation of how clothes should feel or look combining to make a very strong feeling about valued things? I wonder if INTPs also have it, though? Or if it's expressed differently. I know there's the stereotype of INTPs dressing in a particular way. (We need a resident INTP on here!)


I'm trying to think of what my brother's like and I don't really know. I feel like he's a lot more nonchalent than me, but I'm not sure whether it's because he genuinely doesn't get emotionally attached to things in the same way that I do, or if he just hides it (I know he hides a lot). 

Boyfriend has shirts that are super soft and falling apart. For him it's comfortable + "if I keep wearing this I can avoid going clothes shopping". 



shinynotshiny said:


> Always looking up at people, even girlfriends but that's okay I like being the little spoon and people never expect my murderous streak :very_drunk:


Oh yeah that part's always fun, ahahahaha.

Usually I'm little spoon too, but sometimes I like being the big spoon. Bit awkward when your boyfriend's over a foot taller than you...



Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only person who has associated Extroversion with Bigness and Introversion with Smallness?
> 
> And like I still kind of in the back of my consciousness question whether or not I am an E _because I am so tiny._
> 
> It makes no sense but tell my brain that.


Oh brains, so silly sometimes.

My sister's like an inch shorter than me and she's one of the loudest extraverts I know.


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> But that means you only get 26 tries in total! :coldneko:


Branch into Chinese.



shinynotshiny said:


>


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> Branch into Chinese.


If it takes that many tries then we have failed WE HAVE FAILED there is no saving us and by us I mean me


----------



## Tad Cooper

laurie17 said:


> But that means you only get 26 tries in total! :coldneko:


27 if you know the last letter


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> If it takes that many tries then we have failed WE HAVE FAILED there is no saving us and by us I mean me


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


>


I hate everyone~


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> I hate everyone~


----------



## ElliCat

About @shinynotshiny being Super Fi... I don't know. I _do_ get Fi from you, and not necessarily childish black-and-white Fi, and Fi can be dry deadpan sarcastic... but I'm much more comfortable with you being xSTJ than INFP and I don't know whether it's a feeling that has basis in reality or if it's just based on my first impressions of you.

I kind of like the idea of us being duals tbh. I don't know how likely that is (I still think your Fi is too good for inferior shiny) but going by how easy communication is between us I'm thinking we've got to be pretty close functions-wise.


----------



## orbit

I don't understand why I'm so tired. This is like the second day this week where I just dozed for three hours even though I'm getting unlimited sleep already. 



tine said:


> I really like slice of life too, and novellas/short stories (although full length novels are brilliant). Do you know why you like them? ( also asking this to @Blue Flare )


It's an experience and it expresses a lot in a condense way. It's also a nice reflection as @Blue Flare mentioned c:
And it's relaxing yay 



laurie17 said:


> @OvalCat If you like contemporary stories, try S.E. Hinton, Graham Marks or Chris Wooding. They were some of my favourites.


I took note of them thank you. Maybe one day I'll feel the motivation. Also the votes for CuriCat are noted

--

I'm tempted to do another questionaire to figure out if I'm an ESFP because Hoopla was like "you are such a Te user", or some form of this, this morning. Alas I am too tired


----------



## Immolate

ElliCat said:


> About @_shinynotshiny_ being Super Fi... I don't know. I _do_ get Fi from you, and not necessarily childish black-and-white Fi, and Fi can be dry deadpan sarcastic... but I'm much more comfortable with you being xSTJ than INFP and I don't know whether it's a feeling that has basis in reality or if it's just based on my first impressions of you.
> 
> I kind of like the idea of us being duals tbh. I don't know how likely that is (I still think your Fi is too good for inferior shiny) but going by how easy communication is between us I'm thinking we've got to be pretty close functions-wise.


It's why I figured ISTJ at the least, that Si and Fi, but apparently I'm too good~ at Fe.


----------



## owlet

ElliCat said:


> I'm trying to think of what my brother's like and I don't really know. I feel like he's a lot more nonchalent than me, but I'm not sure whether it's because he genuinely doesn't get emotionally attached to things in the same way that I do, or if he just hides it (I know he hides a lot).
> 
> Boyfriend has shirts that are super soft and falling apart. For him it's comfortable + *"if I keep wearing this I can avoid going clothes shopping"*.


Avoiding clothes shopping is always a priority. (It's why I mostly buy men's clothes, because they last longer.)

Hm, I wonder. It can be hard to tell if people hide things - and most people do.

I'm curious about your response to @shinynotshiny because I've been gradually shifting from xSTJ to INFP... Just a type 5 one.... Hmmm.
@tine No don't do this to me.
@Greyhart I don't want to move onto Chinese. It looks hard...
@OvalCat They're really good - you've probably heard of S.E. Hinton's The Outsiders, right?


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> It's why I figured ISTJ at the least, that Si and Fi, but apparently I'm too good~ at Fe.


I have the perfect, step by step solution manual for your Te and situation.


----------



## Immolate

OvalCat said:


> I have the perfect, step by step solution manual for your Te and situation.


Catharsis.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ProtoCosmos said:


> Also I don't know if it's colour blindness but your avatar is orange at the middle :exterminate:


It's more yellow. And it more tastes like summer. Not quite golden, certainly not lemon, not cake, but like a cartoon crown almost. Sort of odd. The yellow actually almost kept me from choosing the avatar, but... I like what it represents. Sunrise coming up behind an unsuspecting tree. A calming thought.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I really want to make a topic in the Enneagram forum discussing the types of characters in HP or ASOIAF but I'm not sure if that would work out, or which one would be the better sell if I did do one. 

I guess I could try? I don't know. But they all seem pretty busy on their Controversial Opinions thread atm.


----------



## Dangerose

@Paradise Rain!


----------



## owlet

Pressed Flowers said:


> I really want to make a topic in the Enneagram forum discussing the types of characters in HP or ASOIAF but I'm not sure if that would work out, or which one would be the better sell if I did do one.
> 
> I guess I could try? I don't know. But they all seem pretty busy on their Controversial Opinions thread atm.


Both are very popular, so you'd probably get quite a few replies!


----------



## Persephone Soul

Anyone a vegetarian/Vegan in here? I just saw this somewhere else and thought I would share, since this is the official Wall-Of-Random-Hodge-Podge.

Through her tears, this is a warming video. Such a beautiful soul. 

https://www.facebook.com/gary.yourofsky/videos/839326389455944/


----------



## Immolate

That poor, adorable child.

Here's something I find soothing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> That poor, adorable child.
> 
> Here's something I find soothing:


NO! Ahhh... sensory overload lol


----------



## 68097

Pressed Flowers said:


> I'll keep looking. Thanks for the info though!


You may be able to stream it _somewhere_ online. Also, it's over for the present. I miss it. *CRIES*



Pressed Flowers said:


> I think @ crap what is Curiphant's new name and I dislike that John Green stories inflame reality. Real teenagers - or at least us - don't go on road trips. We don't conquer the school. We live life, we enjoy life, we make the most of our mundane worlds. John Green's stories make the world more grandiose than it is and that makes me feel my world is insufficient more than it excites me to be apart of his fantastic world of ordinary things.
> 
> And like while I enjoy the fun, funny, quasi-insightful thrill ride, it also makes me feel a little icky.
> 
> On a typing note, can we establish that John Green's stories are at least 40% INFP and Fi and about 0% Ni and certainly 0% NFJ? Because the larger tiny typing communities do not seem to grasp this.


He wrote that damn story about the cancer kids that made me cry, right? "The Fault in Our Stars"? Yeah, melodrama. I hate authors who jerk my emotions around for no real reason. He and Nicholas Sparks are on my NOPE list. And yeah, just from the writing he strikes me as INFP. No real message, except an abstract one. He stirs the pot and walks away. Like ... Woody Allen. What was the point of "Blue Jasmine" really? No point. Just to stir the pot, make you think, and walk away. 

I have a bad habit of trying to SAY SOMETHING with my art. To reason out something. I go off on these little theological debates for fun, or sit and have two people discuss whether someone can be intelligent and unwise at the same time. It's fun. And I don't always give the answers, but I give two sides to every argument. 

Ah, writing. I love it. I hate it. It is me. I am it. We get all tangled up together, in reality and in dreams.

PS: Not thrilled with so many name changes all at once. I don't recognize anyone anymore, except littlebear ... who kept the same userpic.


----------



## Immolate

Paradise Rain said:


> NO! Ahhh... sensory overload lol


I take it your preferred kind of music is silence.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Okay... so, here are the 2 videos of my and my husband. They probably say next to nothing cognitively speaking, so they were pretty much a waste of time. Although, me and John had some giggles and time together lol. Mine was taped late at night and is a bore-fest  .

DISCLAIMER: THESE SAID A WHOLE LOTTA-NUFFIN.


----------



## Immolate

@Paradise Rain I watched a few minutes of your video and you're a lot more subdued than I imagined you to be. Also, I can't watch your first video because it is set to private. 

Let's see what happens


----------



## Persephone Soul

shinynotshiny said:


> @Paradise Rain I watched a few minutes of your video and you're a lot more subdued than I imagined you to be. Also, I can't watch your first video because it is set to private.
> 
> Let's see what happens


Yeah, that is me naturally. Like i said, very chill. But the video with John, I am more giggly and lively. I can get that way too. Just being goofy. It's fun while it lasts, but it's draining.

I will try and fix the video...


----------



## Persephone Soul

First video is fixed...

EDIT: I would love to do a new video with specific questions that could actually help. This was just , practice. 

I've already done 3 questionnaires though, so anyone have question ideas? I know I am social introvert. I seriously don't like people. I love introverted activity. A complete home-body/hermit. I mean I could go on and on. But cognitively speaking, I may be extroverted. Which I understand, but it is still weird to me.


----------



## Dangerose

@Paradise Rain watching your videos) They're long so I probably won't be able to get through them before I go to work but I'm getting Fi + Ne vibes so far. @angelcat I am Oswin (I put a picture of Oswin from Doctor Who to establish a connection), OvalCat is Curiphant, Paradise Rain is SugarPlum...I think there was one more?


----------



## Dangerose

Also, I kinda want to try a video with another person, like my brother or something, because I don't feel like I really act like myself at all when I'm just talking to a camera (maybe it's a Fe thing) and you could get his perspective as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> You may be able to stream it _somewhere_ online. Also, it's over for the present. I miss it. *CRIES*
> 
> 
> 
> He wrote that damn story about the cancer kids that made me cry, right? "The Fault in Our Stars"? Yeah, melodrama. I hate authors who jerk my emotions around for no real reason. He and Nicholas Sparks are on my NOPE list. And yeah, just from the writing he strikes me as INFP. No real message, except an abstract one. He stirs the pot and walks away. Like ... Woody Allen. What was the point of "Blue Jasmine" really? No point. Just to stir the pot, make you think, and walk away.
> 
> I have a bad habit of trying to SAY SOMETHING with my art. To reason out something. I go off on these little theological debates for fun, or sit and have two people discuss whether someone can be intelligent and unwise at the same time. It's fun. And I don't always give the answers, but I give two sides to every argument.
> 
> Ah, writing. I love it. I hate it. It is me. I am it. We get all tangled up together, in reality and in dreams.
> 
> PS: Not thrilled with so many name changes all at once. I don't recognize anyone anymore, except littlebear ... who kept the same userpic.


Glad my avatar can be of use 

And yep, that's him. Be sure to check out Paper Towns, coming soon to a theatre near you. (If it hasn't already. I don't even know the release date.)

He tries to be philosophical with his stories. I mean... gosh, what was the running theme in TFIOS? Like the meaninglessness of life, and how life actually isn't meaningless because of the people we touch? A beautiful theme, but not one I felt I came away from the story _knowing_ in my soul. There are books that do that. I can think of a handful of books that I think accomplish better recognition of that message's truth. But TFIOS is not one of them. It's too... giddily romantic, obliviously romantic, to be more than a love story, I think.

_Paper Towns_ serves a better purpose, I think. The destruction of the "manic pixie dream girl". It also made some gaudy points about how we should appreciate people for being themselves, not idealize them... I don't think it sold me on that message. Show me. Illustrate to me. Show the message with beauty. Don't write me an essay in he last chapter explaining what the character was supposed to have learned. Be literature, don't just attempt it. 

_Looking for Alaska_ is... better, I think. A real masterpiece? Maybe. I think it does a good job of being a realistic portrayal of trauma, and the impact of trauma on individuals... which I personally find always impressive, especially since so many YA authors absolutely suck at it. It also has a weak message - I can't even remember it, but the kid literally revealed it _in an a paper for his Philosophy Class that is unveiled in the last page of the novel_ - but I think it is a good... snapshot of life. Instead of being incredulous, having grandiose things... it's about drugs. It's about teenage things. It's about hard life. Sure, they're at some private boarding school, so it's hard to sympathize at points, but at least they aren't just living in some really expensive suburban neighborhood and living lives of fantasy. 

It's just kind of sad, because he tries so hard to bring a message to his writing... but ultimately he misses it. Sigh.

I also try to bring a message to my writing... and I try not to be upfront about it either. Not sure how well I do in that, but I suppose I will see in time.

On a somewhat unrelated but related note, I need to read _I, Claudia_.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Princess Langwidere said:


> Also, I kinda want to try a video with another person, like my brother or something, because I don't feel like I really act like myself at all when I'm just talking to a camera (maybe it's a Fe thing) and you could get his perspective as well.


That would be fun. I pretty much did it to get his prospective. To show his opinions on my behavior and personality. But I mean, again, I had absolutely no questions in mind for either video, so my mind was all over the place. Behavior doesn't technically count in cognition, even though I would say it is a small piece of it. I am frustrated because I had the opportunity to say something worth something, and I bombed lol. But, then again, I have never made a video in my life. I do find it interesting though, almost seeing myself through my husbands eyes, although I was yapping more than him... Most of what he said, I would agree with. I asked him later if he does think I 'Mother" people, and he said well yeah, us (the kids and him) and I mother my mom. There are reasons for that though (personal reasons). Other than that, I could care less. I don't even mother my 5 younger siblings. Nor my friends. He definitely agreed, it was just my mom and my kids for the most part. 

I forgot what my point for replying was, now. I guess, I was just saying that it was kinda cool. I wouldn't want to do it with people that don't REALLY know me though. I hate when people think they know me. Unless you live with me, and see me all day everyday, or I let you in... You don't know me. 

Off track again lol. YES, you should do it with your bro. That would be fun to watch.


----------



## Adena

I'm thinking of making a video with my sister as well, so you can all see what an ESFP looks like


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> I'm thinking of making a video with my sister as well, so you can all see what an ESFP looks like


BTW earlier you were saying you were doubting your type again? How are you doing on that now?
Paradise Rain, you may have started a trend)


----------



## orbit

@laurie17, I finished The Outsiders. 

And it was golden green. Like a sunset. Emotionally fluid, it made everything so real, made you empathize with every character, and open your mind. Bittersweet. I can't tell if I want to be sad or hopeful. It was golden.

Damn it, it was brilliant. The characters seemed real and I don't know, but any story that makes you relate to characters that are completely unlike you is important and it was a jewel of human experience. It humanized people.

She touched on a lot of topics without preaching


----------



## Adena

Princess Langwidere said:


> BTW earlier you were saying you were doubting your type again? How are you doing on that now?
> Paradise Rain, you may have started a trend)


Some kind of an SJ, but other than that not sure.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> On a somewhat unrelated but related note, I need to read _I, Claudia_.


Ooh! I read it) Can fully recommend) 
By the way, @angelcat, I'm curious about the typings for your characters. I was trying to figure it out while reading but I'd rather hear it from the source)


----------



## Persephone Soul

Princess Langwidere said:


> BTW earlier you were saying you were doubting your type again? How are you doing on that now?
> Paradise Rain, you may have started a trend)


I was thinking about doing one of those video mash-ups, of different interviews of those closest to me. Then with the full video of just me at the end. I would need specific questions though. These were a mess lol. Even if they dont help much for my typing process, they would be interesting to do.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> Ooh! I read it) Can fully recommend)
> By the way, @angelcat, I'm curious about the typings for your characters. I was trying to figure it out while reading but I'd rather hear it from the source)


I'm also wondering if you ( @angelcat ) think your portrayal of Claudia matches up with AD's portrayal of Claudia, and if you have any idea why the portrayals were very different if they are very different.


----------



## Darkbloom

Gray Romantic said:


> Some kind of an SJ, but other than that not sure.


So,considering SFJ again?
I'm glad 

Doing a video with your sister is a great idea btw, seems so much more accurate than talking to the camera! 

@Princess Langwidere, you really should do it too, I think it could finally _show_ your Fe that just seems to be there in posts.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Living dead said:


> So,considering SFJ again?
> I'm glad
> 
> Doing a video with your sister is a great idea btw, seems so much more accurate than talking to the camera!
> 
> @Princess Langwidere, you really should do it too, I think it could finally _show_ your Fe that just seems to be there in posts.


MY idea  lol

And hi! Its been awhile. So are you set on ENFJ for sure then?


----------



## Adena

Living dead said:


> So,considering SFJ again?
> I'm glad
> 
> Doing a video with your sister is a great idea btw, seems so much more accurate than talking to the camera!


Yeah x) Maybe no Fe dom, but ISFJ. My youngest sister is a Fe dom and while we're very, very alike- I'm not her.

To be honest she just loves being in front of a camera but I'm not sure what we should talk about in the video! Any ideas guys?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Gray Romantic said:


> Yeah x) Maybe no Fe dom, but ISFJ. My youngest sister is a Fe dom and while we're very, very alike- I'm not her.
> 
> To be honest she just loves being in front of a camera but I'm not sure what we should talk about in the video! Any ideas guys?


That's what I have been asking for ages now. Nobody is giving suggestions :/ . All I know is, make sure you have them lol

I am thinking of just doing a questionaire, but in the 3rd person. Then again, maybe just interaction together talking about the questions as a dialogue could really help.


----------



## Darkbloom

Paradise Rain said:


> MY idea  lol
> 
> And hi! Its been awhile. So are you set on ENFJ for sure then?


Well good idea!
And where can I see your video???(hope you haven't deleted it :/)

Anyway, yes, pretty much roud:
How come you switched to ISFJ?


----------



## Darkbloom

Gray Romantic said:


> Yeah x) Maybe no Fe dom, but ISFJ. My youngest sister is a Fe dom and while we're very, very alike- I'm not her.
> 
> To be honest she just loves being in front of a camera but I'm not sure what we should talk about in the video! Any ideas guys?


As paradise said, do a questionnaire by just talking about the questions. But maybe some more "fun" questionnaire, one of those short ones(for example angelcat's?) and add some socionics questions


----------



## Adena

Living dead said:


> As paradise said, do a questionnaire by just talking about the questions. But maybe some more "fun" questionnaire, one of those short ones(for example angelcat's?) and add some socionics questions


angelcat wrote a questionnaire?  Yeah I'll try to look into stuff


----------



## fair phantom

oh no...over 20 pages to go through.

I'll be back :typingneko:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Living dead said:


> Well good idea!
> And where can I see your video???(hope you haven't deleted it :/)
> 
> Anyway, yes, pretty much roud:
> How come you switched to ISFJ?


Lol. Thanks.

A couple pages back. 

Thats good. Glad you're settled.

And , I don't know. Fe is a possibility, but it just does not feel dominant. 

And @angelcat has a questionaire? Where?


----------



## Darkbloom

Paradise Rain said:


> Lol. Thanks.
> 
> A couple pages back.
> 
> Thats good. Glad you're settled.
> 
> And , I don't know. Fe is a possibility, but it just does not feel dominant.
> 
> And @angelcat has a questionaire? Where?


I get where you're coming from(introversion>dom Fe for you) but Pi dom? inferior Ne? I don't know :/
But I think both SFJs should be given some time, perhaps it ends up making sense

I think she does, a short one, no idea where it is lol

Btw gonna watch the video tomorrow morning!


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> So,considering SFJ again?
> I'm glad
> 
> Doing a video with your sister is a great idea btw, seems so much more accurate than talking to the camera!
> 
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Princess Langwidere</a></i></span>, you really should do it too, I think it could finally _show_ your Fe that just seems to be there in posts.


Did it already! 
I don't feel like this is very good for cognition but it's at least a little slice? This is closer to how I act in real life than other videos I've made at least. Though I'm bizarrely smiley.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gray Romantic said:


> Yeah x) Maybe no Fe dom, but ISFJ. My youngest sister is a Fe dom and while we're very, very alike- I'm not her.
> 
> To be honest she just loves being in front of a camera but I'm not sure what we should talk about in the video! Any ideas guys?


Talk about Pitch Perfect.


----------



## AdInfinitum

shinynotshiny said:


> I see you @NobleRaven. Any thoughts on my type?


Oh hai again.


It is a different matter of thought as to where your whole being centres, where your ego enjoys the position of power, what fields it understands and what your fears convey around. Does your ego (who you are by daily means, the person you live with on a different level, that "you" the world is seeking) enjoy abstraction through patterns and associations and is able to do it freely and frequently or does it enjoy focusing on what is perceivable through senses and adding meaning to it? I certainly do not see Se in you, you give off a "softening" vibe, warm and understanding which the intensity of Se does not focus on however your Fi is obvious, it is how you focus on your feelings from an internal level, an internal ethical understanding of values. If I were to choose I would say ISTJ because of the pure vibe and some of the behaviour I have put my mind around through the forums but it is honestly, purely, meaningfully your own decision upon what you use. It is where your ego feels the most comfortable around.


----------



## Future2Future

Princess Langwidere said:


> Did it already!
> I don't feel like this is very good for cognition but it's at least a little slice? This is closer to how I act in real life than other videos I've made at least. Though I'm bizarrely smiley.


You guys remind me so much of my brothers, it's unbelievable :th_cool:


----------



## Immolate

NobleRaven said:


> Oh hai again.
> 
> 
> It is a different matter of thought as to where your whole being centres, where your ego enjoys the position of power, what fields it understands and what your fears convey around. Does your ego (who you are by daily means, the person you live with on a different level, that "you" the world is seeking) enjoy abstraction through patterns and associations and is able to do it freely and frequently or does it enjoy focusing on what is perceivable through senses and adding meaning to it? I certainly do not see Se in you, you give off a "softening" vibe, warm and understanding which the intensity of Se does not focus on however your Fi is obvious, it is how you focus on your feelings from an internal level, an internal ethical understanding of values. If I were to choose I would say ISTJ because of the pure vibe and some of the behaviour I have put my mind around through the forums but it is honestly, purely, meaningfully your own decision upon what you use. It is where your ego feels the most comfortable around.


You responded. Thank you 

You don't believe ISFJ is in the running? If you've looked through my 80Q, would you say I gave off an Fe vibe? And if so, how? Many people also questioned my Te. Do you get Te vibes? I would assume so because you're going with ISTJ, but I'd like to know if it's a vibe you get often when coming across my posts or reading my questionnaire.

*[Edit]* You don't have to respond, of course. Just curious :teapot:

Anyone can jump in if they have any opinions.


----------



## AdInfinitum

shinynotshiny said:


> You responded. Thank you
> 
> You don't believe ISFJ is in the running? If you've looked through my 80Q, would you say I gave off an Fe vibe? And if so, how? Many people also questioned my Te. Do you get Te vibes? I would assume so because you're going with ISTJ, but I'd like to know if it's a vibe you get often when coming across my posts or reading my questionnaire.


I will actually make a longer post about the Fe vs Fi ethical ideal just to give you a little thumbs up regarding the thought of requiring others' attention and desiring to be liked by others and actual functions. 

It is within the human nature to have a tendency towards the liking, the acceptance and the love of others otherwise one of the most crumbling human mysteries would not be active to this point: the social branch, the connection humanity finds within eachother in order to both find personal growth and help others rise from within their own spaces. Therefore despite your own feeling function, you will require the attention and love of others as you are a social being and your whole improvement relies on both your relationship with yourself and your roots with the outside, it is within you that you want to connect with others and be liked other than being hated, no matter Fi or Fe being completely refused from the world is going to affect you in a way or another. 

Now, what matters relies on what resonates with you mostly, what you focus on or what your self understands easier. Extraverted Feeling's obsession will always be the outside, the emotional atmosphere, the all, the other people, the disruptive element and how everyone's emotional level could be kept to a constant and same level in order to enjoy the moment. Extraverted Feeling also cares about what is appropriate to feel in a moment depending on the group, no matter what you are truly internally feeling, what is the atmosphere on the outside matters primarily and it needs to base its own feelings on the general bidirectional feeling ideal spread through others. You do not have individual feelings but are feeling others' feelings without actually deeply polluting them through your own self. We are all feeling the same emotional stasis and we are we. 


Introverted Feeling is the exact opposite direction, everything is yours and only yours , you are not the disruptive element that pushes the emotional atmosphere to death and revival, you are feeling your own feeling matrix and only you know what you are truly standing for independently of the outside's ethical bounds. You might agree with their opinion, the group might happen to have the same ethical ideal but deep inside, you feel your ideal, it is what you have considered and deeply cared for because it impressed you on a pure level, untouched by the outside. You are the feeling and no one else understands the ideas your ethical cause reflects into you. That is why Fi is about individuality, because no matter what, you feel the outside on a different level and anyone who claims to feel the same does not know you.

I think that you have displayed a large emotional side on the forum due to the encouragement of others, especially this thread but deeply at core you are quite the Te, harder to explain but you have a bit of baby Fi which coupled with a good Te can make you a bit explosive, strong moral opinions but as every human being, you seek the attention of others. I mostly see the softness of Si, Te and Fi, you are just looking for the right facts to back up your own doubts.


----------



## Immolate

Nothing~

@_Princess Langwidere_ I like your brother. You guys talked about something I've noticed here in the thread. Sometimes you believe a person doesn't understand what you're saying even though they do. I think I remember you attributing your inability to properly express certain ideas to Ti.

[Edit] uh oh I got a lot of words back


----------



## Immolate

NobleRaven said:


> I will actually make a longer post about the Fe vs Fi ethical ideal just to give you a little thumbs up regarding the thought of requiring others' attention and desiring to be liked by others and actual functions.
> 
> It is within the human nature to have a tendency towards the liking, the acceptance and the love of others otherwise one of the most crumbling human mysteries would not be active to this point: the social branch, the connection humanity finds within eachother in order to both find personal growth and help others rise from within their own spaces. Therefore despite your own feeling function, you will require the attention and love of others as you are a social being and your whole improvement relies on both your relationship with yourself and your roots with the outside, it is within you that you want to connect with others and be liked other than being hated, no matter Fi or Fe being completely refused from the world is going to affect you in a way or another.
> 
> Now, what matters relies on what resonates with you mostly, what you focus on or what your self understands easier. Extraverted Feeling's obsession will always be the outside, the emotional atmosphere, the all, the other people, the disruptive element and how everyone's emotional level could be kept to a constant and same level in order to enjoy the moment. Extraverted Feeling also cares about what is appropriate to feel in a moment depending on the group, no matter what you are truly internally feeling, what is the atmosphere on the outside matters primarily and it needs to base its own feelings on the general bidirectional feeling ideal spread through others. You do not have individual feelings but are feeling others' feelings without actually deeply polluting them through your own self. We are all feeling the same emotional stasis and we are we.
> 
> 
> Introverted Feeling is the exact opposite direction, everything is yours and only yours , you are not the disruptive element that pushes the emotional atmosphere to death and revival, you are feeling your own feeling matrix and only you know what you are truly standing for independently of the outside's ethical bounds. You might agree with their opinion, the group might happen to have the same ethical ideal but deep inside, you feel your ideal, it is what you have considered and deeply cared for because it impressed you on a pure level, untouched by the outside. You are the feeling and no one else understands the ideas your ethical cause reflects into you. That is why Fi is about individuality, because no matter what, you feel the outside on a different level and anyone who claims to feel the same does not know you.
> 
> I think that you have displayed a large emotional side on the forum due to the encouragement of others, especially this thread but deeply at core you are quite the Te, harder to explain but you have a bit of baby Fi which coupled with a good Te can make you a bit explosive, strong moral opinions but as every human being, you seek the attention of others. I mostly see the softness of Si, Te and Fi, you are just looking for the right facts to back up your own doubts.


Thank you again 

I asked about Fe because everyone in the socionics thread (aside from the first person to post) got a sense of Fe. Even several people here began to see Fe, which I attributed to _their _Fe (haha). I've always believed I'm Fi, never felt otherwise, and you're absolutely correct about people needing others regardless of how they go about their ethics. This is something I discussed in my first questionnaire, the push and pull relationship between wanting to go out into the world and grow as a person, both emotionally and intellectually, and the desire to remain in my own mind and pursue whatever floats in there. I have reached a point in my life where, despite the comfort of privacy and seclusion, I understand people need other people, if not for an emotional bond then for growth of heart and mind. I think of myself in my older years and I'm certain I need to get in tune with the feeling side of myself if I want the entirety of my life to be worthwhile. I think this is my baby Fi finally asking me to let it out 

I also agree about my having Te, but I did begin to question the strength of it, how developed and useful it is. Perhaps there's merit in thinking it's a lot less developed than I think it is, but I've always felt Te is the easier way to express myself, whether emotionally or otherwise, and to interact with the world. It's easier to go about things in a Te way, or what I believe is a Te way. I also know I have an explosiveness to me, a loudness I wish I could rein in at times.

Also, I always wonder how people perceive me in that regard, my softness, my warmth. Do you mean softness of intensity? Drive? No need to write anymore than you already have. Just thinking out loud here.

Thanks again for the response. I truly appreciate it and it gives me new things to think about


----------



## AdInfinitum

shinynotshiny said:


> Thank you again
> 
> I asked about Fe because everyone in the socionics thread (aside from the first person to post) got a sense of Fe. Even several people here began to see Fe, which I attributed to _their _Fe (haha). I've always believed I'm Fi, never felt otherwise, and you're absolutely correct about people needing others regardless of how they go about their ethics. This is something I discussed in my first questionnaire, the push and pull relationship between wanting to go out into the world and grow as a person, both emotionally and intellectually, and the desire to remain in my own mind and pursue whatever floats in there. I have reached a point in my life where, despite the comfort of privacy and seclusion, I understand people need other people, if not for an emotional bond then for growth of heart and mind. I think of myself in my older years and I'm certain I need to get in tune with the feeling side of myself if I want the entirety of my life to be worthwhile. I think this is my baby Fi finally asking me to let it out
> 
> I also agree about my having Te, but I did begin to question the strength of it, how developed and useful it is. Perhaps there's merit in thinking it's a lot less developed than I think it is, but I've always felt Te is the easier way to express myself, whether emotionally or otherwise, and to interact with the world. It's easier to go about things in a Te way, or what I believe is a Te way. I also know I have an explosiveness to me, a loudness I wish I could rein in at times.
> 
> Also, I always wonder how people perceive me in that regard, my softness, my warmth. Do you mean softness of intensity? Drive? No need to write anymore than you already have. Just thinking out loud here.
> 
> Thanks again for the response. I truly appreciate it and it gives me new things to think about


Do not worry, you do not bother me if you ask for more, I missed posting on the forums, I am mostly just visiting rends on the Socionics forum as I love the depth of Socionics so I do not get to write much but mostly absorb and expand through thought. I also like you as a person so that adds up to my enjoyment.

Anyway, it depends on whether or not you can deal with facts and logic easier than with feelings and ethics, which one feels "uncomfortable" to you, which one scratches your consciousness during discussions and sharing with others. Te is also about procedures, steps, algorithms, consequences, arguments including facts and all around "approximation" of empirical logic so it is whatever comes through a natural level to you. I can be quite the master with facts and proved logic however I will always be insecure on it as it only is my "hidden agenda", it is something hidden to me but of great importance, that is how Fi should feel to a Fi tert, a bit sketchy to grab through but accessible and usable, you can be mistaken for someone using their tertiary function due to the fact that it supports your ego function so it tries copying a behaviour it has not mastered.


It is a bit harder to explain, after reading posts there is a vibe rummaging around the air, you have a specific softness which Si users have, especially on this forum, a bit hesitant but willing to break stereotypes, you engage in the environment in an comfortable way, not wanting to take over but actually feel the experience, that is why Si users get attached to the world of sensory, because everything is personalized. You keep the previous sensory experiences because of your broadened and extended personalized relationship with the moment. _The you and the world._ Are you aware of comfort states? Do you know what your usual physical routine is in order to give you the most pleasurable mental support to continue your activities? Are you able to know what "feels right" in specific physical moments? Do you also remember them next time you are dealing with the same situation? What about sensory changes? I still have the ability to realize whenever my mother changes specific recipes to food she has been serving me for 10 years but not realize she has completely moved my wardrobe out of the room or not deeply focus on my sensory experience due to my lack of focus. Well, I hope it has given you a bit of clarity or maybe confused you even more but I do know you will figure it out.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> Nothing~
> 
> @_Princess Langwidere_ I like your brother. You guys talked about something I've noticed here in the thread. Sometimes you believe a person doesn't understand what you're saying even though they do. I think I remember you attributing your inability to properly express certain ideas to Ti.
> 
> [Edit] uh oh I got a lot of words back


Thanks)
I think it is probably inferior Ti-related. But I'm not convinced people are understanding what I mean. The Confederate flag issue...whatever, that's the worst possible example but it's the only thing I can think of. What I'm talking about is like...I'm making an argument, and people respond to it like I was making a totally different point, or...I can tell they're working on an assumption that doesn't apply. And it's mostly my fault, I don't know how to really explain myself, and I think the inferior Ti explains my sort-of...sensitivity to not being understood? (not in a touchy-feely no one understands me way but just like...yeah). It's just like...I have this whole country and I want to explain it so people know what it's like but the best I can do is show a map and...so people are saying "Oh I know about this mountain range" but they don't know about the weather there or the look of it or the folk customs and dialects, they just see it on the map and I'm not talking about the shape of the mountains, I'm talking about their quality, and...that gets lost.

I'm just unclear on if it is a Si world or a Ni world, and I don't really know how to tell the difference.


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> Thanks)
> I think it is probably inferior Ti-related. But I'm not convinced people are understanding what I mean. The Confederate flag issue...whatever, that's the worst possible example but it's the only thing I can think of. What I'm talking about is like...I'm making an argument, and people respond to it like I was making a totally different point, or...I can tell they're working on an assumption that doesn't apply. And it's mostly my fault, I don't know how to really explain myself, and I think the inferior Ti explains my sort-of...sensitivity to not being understood? (not in a touchy-feely no one understands me way but just like...yeah). It's just like...I have this whole country and I want to explain it so people know what it's like but the best I can do is show a map and...so people are saying "Oh I know about this mountain range" but they don't know about the weather there or the look of it or the folk customs and dialects, they just see it on the map and I'm not talking about the shape of the mountains, I'm talking about their quality, and...that gets lost.
> 
> I'm just unclear on if it is a Si world or a Ni world, and I don't really know how to tell the difference.


Usually, the issue you described is perceiving related, Ni not understanding what Si means, and vice versa. Inferior Ti, to my knowledge, is the inability to emotionally disconnect from a topic, as Fe emotionally connects all the time. When you're in the grip of inferior Ti, I would imagine it's the same to inferior Fe for Ti dominants, clumsy and ineffective use of the inferior function. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Am I the only one who thinks @Princess Langwidere was especially Fe in her video? 

You look _so beautiful_. Oh my goodness. Your clothes! They're beautiful. 

And your brother is so cute  

My sister is so sassy, she doesn't remind me of your brother (I also suspect she's ESTJ), but he reminds me of my little cousin. Maybe a gender difference thing. 

And... yeah. I don't know, but this is the first video where I could really understand where people would see these videos and say "Fe dominant" for you.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only one who thinks @Princess Langwidere was especially Fe in her video?
> 
> You look _so beautiful_. Oh my goodness. Your clothes! They're beautiful.
> 
> And your brother is so cute
> 
> My sister is so sassy, she doesn't remind me of your brother (I also suspect she's ESTJ), but he reminds me of my little cousin. Maybe a gender difference thing.
> 
> And... yeah. I don't know, but this is the first video where I could really understand where people would see these videos and say "Fe dominant" for you.











(If anyone has opinions on my brother's type, I'm happy to hear them. I originally thought he was NTP, but now I'm thinking STJ, but I'm not sure).
That's good and...I see what you mean...I _do_ think I'm Fe-dominant (but it _could_ be aux) however it's good if I've shown it a bit, feels less like I'm just trolling you guys)
Do we have any thoughts on @Paradise Rain? I'm at work so I can't watch the videos atm, what I saw seemed quite INFP though. But I already thought she was INFP so my opinion might be less valid.


----------



## Barakiel

@Princess Langwidere, your brother seems NTP-ish, and this is from the first minute or so, so yeah. :laughing: I can't say for sure, but... I don't know, he just seems NTP to me, a nice foil to your, um, bubbliness. :wink:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Actually, me and my husband just did it over again with the scenario thing. I think I really do give Fe energy.. or Ne energy... but on the second video (the continued version), I read @laurie17 's functions description, and sure enough... Fi to a T. Not Fe at all. But my energy? Weird...

Posting shortly ... Ps @Princess Langwidere ... you are gorge. your side profile is perfect.


----------



## 68097

@Princess Langwidere: thank you! I did get some of you figured out. 



Pressed Flowers said:


> It's just kind of sad, because he tries so hard to bring a message to his writing... but ultimately he misses it. Sigh.


If he is NFP, he's not really trying for a specific message. That's more of a FeTi thing -- educating through literature. And TiFe is more about exploring themes in literature and posing questions. Ne and Fi are provocative but open-ended, since there is no one essential truth; everything can be seen a multitude of ways, and continue to be seen in a multitude of ways. 



> On a somewhat unrelated but related note, I need to read _I, Claudia_.


Yes, you do. But I'm also afraid of you reading it, since you tend to be ... um... pretty strong in your responses to literature, and you might find my symbolism contrived. Then again, there's not that much symbolism in that book, so I might escape unscathed. 



Gray Romantic said:


> I'm thinking of making a video with my sister as well, so you can all see what an ESFP looks like


I don't need to see an ESFP. My sister is one. 

I'm spending the weekend with an ENFP and... it's like, how did we get from discussing Faeries to fermented fish sauce in ancient Rome? IDK.



Princess Langwidere said:


> Ooh! I read it) Can fully recommend)
> By the way, @angelcat, I'm curious about the typings for your characters. I was trying to figure it out while reading but I'd rather hear it from the source)


Aw, I'm glad you liked it. 

Pilate... EXTJ. I rather think ENTJ, but I've met and spent time with so many characters since him, he's a bit shady in my mind. Claudia... INFJ, and not just because of her mysticism -- she is fairly comfortable leaping into the unknown, and has long-term thinking. Pilate's sister strikes me as an ESFP. Claudia's brother ... STJ? Perhaps? I don't know. I never choose types for my characters in advance; they kind of grow into a type over time.



Pressed Flowers said:


> I'm also wondering if you ( @angelcat ) think your portrayal of Claudia matches up with AD's portrayal of Claudia, and if you have any idea why the portrayals were very different if they are very different.


They are very different, but in fairness -- A.D.'s Pilate is an absolute bastard, so his wife is emotionally scarred. Mine is a bastard about half the time, but his redeeming value lies in his total devotion to his wife. He really does love her, which makes her incapable of understanding his bigotry and hatred for the Jews. My Claudia has greater success in calming his wild nature than A.D.'s Claudia. 

I love A.D. I do. Particularly for its portrayal of Peter. And as I said before, I "get" their Claudia in a terrifying way. But part of me is also annoyed that they went so stereotypically "evil Roman" with Pilate. It's so old school. So much in keeping with lame legends about him. The real one was no more or less Roman than any of them, so the ground is fertile for a rich, mulch-faceted depiction of him. But usually writers pass up the ability to write complex characterization and turn him into a one note bad guy. 
@Paradise Rain: didn't get to see much of your video before my company arrived (taking a brief break from them now) but all the pauses as you thought of what to say seems FeTi. Te is more often able to think aloud / think as it speaks.

And... my company is back. Back to our Strange & Norrell marathon.


----------



## fair phantom

*Replies Part 1*, because I think i might fall asleep soon.



ElliCat said:


> Apparently it prevents the whole awkward "do they like me? do they not like me?" and you're supposed to do it only when you like someone. But I can't figure out what's flirting and what isn't. It's like if I don't want to be seen as flirtacious I have to keep deadpan and low-key, but if I do that I'm interpreted as cold and uncaring and basically I just can't win so I've stopped trying to play that game and just.... whatever.


I feel like it only works that way in movies, television, books. Sigh.



> 4 problems? Fi + 4 problems? xNFP + 4 problems? I just don't know. But it bothers me SO MUCH.


Haha I'm glad I'm not alone.



> My sister had to force me into buying skinny jeans a couple of years ago. I just hate shopping for pants. They're either too tight up top, or too long in the legs (and often they're too long in the legs AND refuse to do up over my hips!). Frustrating.
> 
> Shoes are similarly frustrating. Usually trying to go shoe shopping ends in literal tears - my feet end up sore from walking around to 20 different stores and trying on 200 different pairs and NOTHING fits or is even close to comfortable. So it ends up into me taking what I can get when I find something that is relatively okay. I just bought a pair of ballet flats for work on Sunday because they seemed to fit (spent 3 times what I wanted to and not the style I was after - I prefer a kitten heel or slight wedge - but that's often the way) and I'm seriously considering going back and getting another pair because they're not actually ripping my feet to shreds, which is what usually happens with shoes that fit perfectly before I buy.


Basically I am all about my Genetic Denim skinnies because they are lightweight and soft and have just the right amount of stretch. They are really more "legging style" since they aren't as stiff as most skinnies. And i don't care that low waist is "out": even with stretch, finding something that would fit my waist AND my hips AND my thighs AND not be too long...forget it. Best to cut waist out of the equation.

Shoes are a bit of a problem for me too. My feet are much narrower at the heel so basically any shoe that fits the rest of my foot slips at the heel. Heel inserts are a must.



> Oh dear! That's one reason why I like hiding behind the teacher's desk or a lecturn. It's like a shield. And also hiding.


Oh yes, I love lecturns for that reason.



> I don't think I'll ever tell her I learned to scuba dive on my last holiday. Which is hard because she's got this way of making people talk and want to tell her things. But I don't think I could give her yet another reason to worry about me.


Scuba diving? Fun! I'd love to learn that. My sister did it when she was studying in Australia. Of course my mother didn't worry much with her. My sister is very much an Aries (aside from the temper), so my mother doesn't worry as much about her ability to handle things. But since she already did it I should be able to without my mother freaking out—or at least she wouldn't be able to freak out without it being an obvious double standard. :cocksure:



> Same here. And also be safe and responsible! Take care of your health!


Good additions. Yes these are also important when it comes to sex. 




> I do this too. I feel bad for not making more of an effort to make people see reason (Australian politics is just literally insane at the moment) but I don't see the point when they don't WANT to see the real-world consequences of what they're supporting.


Exactly. If I already know that someone isn't going to change their perspective then there is no point in getting myself worked up and wasting energy.



> I have the opposite problem in my family: I can slap down all the sources and facts that I want, but they dismiss them. Both parents have inferior Thinking, hurrah! Not that inferior Te or Ti necessarily makes that inevitable - I should know it doesn't - but it's certainly relevant in their case.


Sources and facts work amazingly well with most in my immediate family. But my mother? Learning about inferior Ti helped me understand why so many of our political discussions wind up being so frustrating for me. Once it was so bad that she told me to leave, only relenting when I called her bluff and packed a suitcase.



hoopla said:


> Everything we do will hurt someone in some way, regardless of intention. There is deliberate offense, and unintentional offense. Unintentional offense can often be malicious, though it is just as often innocuous.
> 
> In terms of politics, much of the offense generated is innocuous. People wear their ideologies on their sleeves. This is why the labelling system, imo, is a bad idea. You see people shoe horning their beliefs into a particular ideology. It's foolish. And you will offend. Always and absolutely.


It is so true. I wish the two-party system would die. I wish people would stop assuming that holding position x means you hold position y because that is what party B believes.

I went into university naively believing that through reasonable debate, people with different views could clear up all misunderstandings, reach compromises, and find solutions, because often there are shared values. Then I went home to my mother who had been Foxified in my absence and watched as the country became more and more partisan. I am no longer quite so optimistic.

But I have been able to reach this sort of understanding and mutual respect with people who held views much different from mine by making the effort, making the argument, and not dismissing them because they ignorantly made an offensive comment (and particularly if someone is young, it is often a case of ignorance). So it is still worth trying.



> The greatest thing you can due is to structure your arguments reasonably, to stick to your compass, and to refuse to make things personal. Remain detatched, and focus exclusively on the topic at hand. That way, if anyone is offended, it's on them, because you never said anything offensive at it's core. People merely interpreted what you said as offensive because it stabbed their beliefs in the throat. However, you remained impersonal and discussed the subject at hand, and no beef with the political issue extended towards those who believed in it. That way, the offense is on them, not you.


Unless the person only responds to appeals to emotion. Sigh. I agree though. Especially if you find it hard to stay detached it is good to be prepared, both in terms of argument and mindset. Do whatever you can to calm yourself. It is like taking a deep breathe before diving.



> As for sources I hear you. I suck in terms of sources, but if you want a logical debate, they are a necessary fuel. Especially when fortified with vitamins and minerals. I always suggest thinking of a specific topic you would like to debate, researching it, then prepping what you would like to say. It's a lubricant that helps soothe your throat so that the words can come out in a structured, intellectual way. Learning logical fallacies also helps, so that way if things are starting to get nasty, you can call them out for using ad hominem attacks... or any other fallacy for that matter, as all can get nasty rather quickly. Serves as a nice threshold, as essentially they're a nice little way of labelling when someone is being BS.


A guy friend of mine is among the most formidable arguers I've ever encountered. He keeps a folder labeled "ammunition", where he saves particularly compelling articles, so that he has facts to back up his reasoning.



> @SugarPlum I'm so glad my... nonsensical quibbling was well received. Sometimes I just... throw things out in the open. They aren't meant to make any sense at all. It is true that no one is really themselves and that everything we do can stem from another origin. It's scary because I have no control over myself, but hey... I've definitely caught myself doing things because they fit a certain stereotype or ideology. Fucking freaky. We are not free, we cannot control ourselves, and free will is a myth.


I believe that free will exists, but we are influenced (often subconsciously) by ideology, society, biology, etc. Becoming aware of those influences helps us be more free. Ignoring them is to make them your master.



Greyhart said:


> My bff wastes huuge amounts of money on japanese lolita clothing. Personally I can't see *myself* ever doing that but it makes her happy so why the hell would I judge her. On the other hand, she gets a lot of flak from other people. Comments that meant to degrade or make her into joke. Do you know how lolita fashion looks like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an epitome of femininity. Even during summer there's barely any skin left. If anything it projects image of a child. And still people make sexual comments about her looks. Now tell me, whose problem it is really? My bff who wears cute dresses that make her happy or people that need to judge and degrade something just because it *looks* different?


Lolita style charms me. I'd like to try it at least once. Though my favorite Japanese subculture aesthetic is probably Mori Girl












> Just so you know, the single sexiest attire for me are dress suits. On any gender. So do I have a right to hate on office workers because they are calling to my libido?


Nice, well-tailored suits are damn sexy. 




> Always assume that others can have radically different perspective on things. It'll make you mentally richer in returns.


Wise Words.



> I get a cold = I start drowning in my lung fluids. :| There's zero fun or cool in that. This Spring I wore warm clothes until late April. As for "feeling" cold or hot - I notice uncomfortable fabrics but hot or cold doesn't bother me for the most part until temperatures are so high/low that I can't not notice it anymore. Currently it's Jule and I still wear "baseball" jacket over my t-shirt (at HOME, though, outside I sweat like banana). Because it has a comfy texture and pockets. :| It's not hot enough for me to notice it so eh.
> 
> February-march looks something like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the day late November-February looked like that but alas, fucking climate change.


Oof. I'm sorry about the drowning. Yes that scene seems familiar. XD



Avalnoah said:


> @tine although this question is not limited to just her
> 
> Since you're like the only ISTP I know online. Something I (lovingly) make fun of my sister online is that on MBTI websites, everything website I've checked about ISTP relationships is that it is bad. It'll either be some stereotypical spheal about how they suck at being at committed relationships (come on :dry or that they'll like to be alone (which is basically true of any introvert). I would like to know from an ISTP or anyone in general, what are the benefits/good things about dating an ISTP?
> 
> It would be nice to hear some good things about them romance side


Well my infj's dad is an Istp. He is, from what anyone can tell, a loyal, committed spouse. Perhaps the fact that he is a Etype 6w5 makes a difference. His wife is an ISTJ and I think she likes that he pushes her to try new things, that he is good at fixing things and figuring things out, that he has strong enough Fe to be more at ease socially but not so much that she feels pressured to be more social than she would like. That he has a will, but can also be easygoing. He usually finds himself in the peacemaker role. When I interact with him I appreciate that he listens and really tries to understand what another person is saying. He has excellent analytical abilities.



Barakiel said:


> Do you guys have something you're naturally good at, but don't enjoy or take pride in? Conversely, do you enjoy or take pride in something you're not naturally gifted at? :happy:


I suppose math? I've avoided it so much that i've gone rusty but when I took it regularly I demonstrated a high aptitude. But I don't know, I suppose I am proud of that. I just didn't value it like I could have? My problem, I think, was that I hated the repetition. I loved learning math and figuring out challenging problems, but doing essentially the same thing over and over was so boring to me. I basically never did math homework until highschool.

I do feel pride when I've developed some skill at something I'm not naturally gifted in, perhaps even more pride than when I excel at something I am naturally gifted at. I'm having trouble thinking of an example atm….



Princess Langwidere said:


> oh @fair phantom as I was going to sleep I was sent into an unusual-for-me solipsistic crisis. The only reason I logged in again. I blame you, I hope you know.


I am sorry! It can be an uncomfortable line of thought. I find I'm not that inclined to it. I believe in questioning things, but I'm not that inclined to think solipsistically unless I am depressed and then it is weird and scary, or if I am doing it on purpose, such as when studying Descartes.



OvalCat said:


> I live in the Keystone state where you have snow in October and all the trees break because they don't see it coming! And we call Ohio PA V0.5
> 
> I was so confused because I didn't understand why converses would have frilly laces in the first place (it would get dirty quickly!) and I was relieved when I looked it up


we have that too. Ch! you would. But we aren't. 

let's not get into a tiresome state rivalry thing.


----------



## Dangerose

@Barakiel I know what you mean. Still not sure though. He has a sort of Te element to him, though his overall personality seems kinda NTP.
Am I bubbly? I've never been called that before) @Paradise Rain roud:thank you; you're beautiful yourself) 

Question for knowledgeable cat people: cat at my work suddenly started running around the house at full gallop, scratching her scratching post, running around, then jumped up into my lap and is purring super loudly like she's scared of something. Is this normal cat behavior? should I be concerned about her?


----------



## Max

I am so hyper right now, I could die happy. And horny. And drunk. Mostly the first one. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


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## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> @Barakiel I know what you mean. Still not sure though. He has a sort of Te element to him, though his overall personality seems kinda NTP.
> Am I bubbly? I've never been called that before) @Paradise Rain roud:thank you; you're beautiful yourself)
> 
> Question for knowledgeable cat people: cat at my work suddenly started running around the house at full gallop, scratching her scratching post, running around, then jumped up into my lap and is purring super loudly like she's scared of something. Is this normal cat behavior? should I be concerned about her?


Is there any catnip around? Because that will do it.

My cats tend to get really hyper like that in the early morning. When they are scared they tend to hide.


----------



## Dangerose

PsychElGambino said:


> I am so hyper right now, I could die happy. And horny. And drunk. Mostly the first one.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


I'm guessing mostly the last one though.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Is there any catnip around? Because that will do it.
> 
> My cats tend to get really hyper like that in the early morning. When they are scared they tend to hide.


I don't know; maybe)
She seems fine now) I guess she was just hyper then) seemed out of character because she's usually such a lump)







edit: she does not look content in this photo but I promise she is


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> @Barakiel I know what you mean. Still not sure though. He has a sort of Te element to him, though his overall personality seems kinda NTP.
> Am I bubbly? I've never been called that before)


I really can't explain it, he has an Ne quality to him that I try to emulate, but I can't explain how it is. :wink: And as for your bubbliness, the only way I can describe it is, well, you're strange to me. Plus, you smile a lot. :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> I really can't explain it, he has an Ne quality to him that I try to emulate, but I can't explain how it is. :wink: And as for your bubbliness, the only way I can describe it is, well, *you're strange to me. *Plus, you smile a lot. :happy:


...thanks)

At the end of the movie Little Big Man there's this lovely dialogue which I was put in mind of:


> Old Lodge Skins: Am I still in this world?
> Jack Crabb: Yes Grandfather.
> Old Lodge Skins: Heeya... I was afraid of that. Well sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't. Let's go back to the tepee and eat, my son. My newest snake wife cooks dog very well.
> Jack Crabb: Alright, Grandfather.
> Old Lodge Skins: She also has very soft skin. The trouble with snake women is they copulate with horses. Which makes them strange to me. She says she doesn't. That's why I call her "Doesn't like Horses." But of course she's lying.
> Jack Crabb: Of course, Grandfather.


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> ...thanks)


Oh, I meant no offence, it's just that what you're like is how you genuinely are, whereas I'm outwardly similar, but it's sort of... I suppose fake would be a better word than facade?  I'm friendly because I enjoy it, not necessarily because it's how I am.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@angelcat oh, please don't fear me reading your story! I have honestly never known an author before... and when I know someone personally, I take analysis off and am more prone to pure appreciation  I was a bit analytical with your LOTR story, unfortunately true.. but I didn't know you when I read that either. And that seems more like analysis itself rather than a work of fiction?

Regardless, I won't read you in the judgmental way I read Shakespeare. You're my friend. I won't forget that when reading 

As for John Green... he taught me what Ne and I guess Te were with his whole "the story belongs to you! I have no right to assert what I think happened in the story on any of you!" And I go, uhh, yeah, you do, you're the author, different personal versions of your story belong to your readers, but ultimately it's you in the forefront... since it's _your story_. They ask about a specific interpretation of his character, he goes, "Yeah... I don't know." And I go "what even."

[realizing this isn't helping my "I can be kind to authors" point.]


----------



## fair phantom

@Paradise Rain You seem Fi in the video. I think ISFP)
@Princess Langwidere the video with your brother is so cute! Your Fe comes out way more when you are with another person. I think your brother is an ESTJ. His mannerisms and how he communicates is VERY similar to an ESTJ guy I know, Wow. But yeah, the blunt communication, the tendency to interrupt, glimpses of Ne humour with the mimicry...ESTJ.:smile:

My results for that enneagram test:


----------



## Dangerose

Oh, to the point about Emilie Autumn @Alittlebear, I'm not really sure how she couldn't have spoken out more against psychiatric abuse? I mean, she made a whole album about it) I remember in one interview she was talking about how it's raising awareness and if one person comes to her concerts or something who's in a position to change anything then...it could do some good) or something, I don't remember exactly)
i mean





I waver about her type though. I'm curious about her Enneagram too. I think 8 was suggested in another thread, and I can see that but I could also see 2 or 4.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> Oh, to the point about Emilie Autumn @Alittlebear, I'm not really sure how she couldn't have spoken out more against psychiatric abuse? I mean, she made a whole album about it) I remember in one interview she was talking about how it's raising awareness and if one person comes to her concerts or something who's in a position to change anything then...it could do some good) or something, I don't remember exactly)
> i mean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I waver about her type though. I'm curious about her Enneagram too. I think 8 was suggested in another thread, and I can see that but I could also see 2 or 4.


If she did all she could, the majority of her fans would recognize how intolerable psychiatry is. Social justice for neorodivergent folks would be much stronger than it is now just from that. She could be giving speeches. That "interview at the Asylum," I was expecting her to speak of all that people suffered there, and speak about how we need to make sure that the suffering doesn't happen any longer. But... She didn't. And that's what irritates me. She has _such_ a platform to speak against psychiatric abuse, but... She expects her art to do it for her. And that's not enough when she's saying that "every interpretation is valid!" and people are turning these songs into feminist things rather than... The real issue they're about. 

Idk, it's one of those things that my passion against ableism and dominant Fe and SO instinct make me get overly frustrated about.


----------



## owlet

@ElliCat @shinynotshiny and others who may be waiting for replies, I forgot to say last night, but I'm off to London to do the JLPT over the weekend, so I'll be back on Sunday evening. Have fun without me! :ghost3:



OvalCat said:


> @_laurie17_, I finished The Outsiders.
> 
> And it was golden green. Like a sunset. Emotionally fluid, it made everything so real, made you empathize with every character, and open your mind. Bittersweet. I can't tell if I want to be sad or hopeful. It was golden.
> 
> Damn it, it was brilliant. The characters seemed real and I don't know, but any story that makes you relate to characters that are completely unlike you is important and it was a jewel of human experience. It humanized people.
> 
> She touched on a lot of topics without preaching


:ghost3: I'm so glad you enjoyed it! It's one of my favourite books, just because it's so well done. Everything about it is good, as far as I can remember (especially the ending). It's Hinton's most well-known book for a reason (but actually, I liked Rumblefish more, I think - even though it's only about 100 pages).


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> If she did all she could, the majority of her fans would recognize how intolerable psychiatry is. Social justice for neorodivergent folks would be much stronger than it is now just from that. She could be giving speeches. That "interview at the Asylum," I was expecting her to speak of all that people suffered there, and speak about how we need to make sure that the suffering doesn't happen any longer. But... She didn't. And that's what irritates me. She has _such_ a platform to speak against psychiatric abuse, but... She expects her art to do it for her. And that's not enough when she's saying that "every interpretation is valid!" and people are turning these songs into feminist things rather than... The real issue they're about.
> 
> Idk, it's one of those things that my passion against ableism and dominant Fe and SO instinct make me get overly frustrated about.


Not to attack you or anything, but that's less of a complaint against her work, and more a complaint against her audience. And people don't take things as seriously as others who are affected by it. And you are affected by it, so you're angry when people don't consider it for the evil you think it is. Making her work about the topic in question is enough for someone with no personal attachment to it, but I can see your point. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Not to attack you or anything, but that's less of a complaint against her work, and more a complaint against her audience. And people don't take things as seriously as others who are affected by it. And you are affected by it, so you're angry when people don't consider it for the evil you think it is. Making her work about the topic in question is enough for someone with no personal attachment to it, but I can see your point. :happy:


Taylor Swift's art gets people fired up about feminism. Modern day feminism. White feminism, even. I don't even know if there's that much need for a voice with that. And yet, Taylor fills up the hole and goes beyond. She's doing a lot for feminism. Why? Because she _speaks out_. She calls it out. She addresses it on talk shows. She writes songs about it, but she also talks about those songs and what they mean. 

Emilie Autumn could do the same if she just opened her mouth more about things that are literally killing people. 

I can't really discuss this further, it's getting late and I need to sleep, but... There is so much more that she could do and the fact that she doesn't makes me very personally frustrated with her. I don't know if it's her fault since I honestly think she is an Fi-dominant, I don't think I can blame her for not doing what she is not inclined to, but... It is a waste of potential, and unfortunately a very harmful one.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Taylor Swift's art gets people fired up about feminism. Modern day feminism. White feminism, even. I don't even know if there's that much need for a voice with that. And yet, Taylor fills up the hole and goes beyond. She's doing a lot for feminism. Why? Because she _speaks out_. She calls it out. She addresses it on talk shows. She writes songs about it, but she also talks about those songs and what they mean.
> 
> Emilie Autumn could do the same if she just opened her mouth more about things that are literally killing people.
> 
> I can't really discuss this further, it's getting late and I need to sleep, but... There is so much more that she could do and the fact that she doesn't makes me very personally frustrated with her. I don't know if it's her fault since I honestly think she is an Fi-dominant, I don't think I can blame her for not doing what she is not inclined to, but... It is a waste of potential, and unfortunately a very harmful one.


You're comparing two different people, probably of two different personality types, and *certainly* different experiences, and becoming annoyed when Autumn doesn't measure up to the level of commitment to a concept that Swift obviously cares about. That's really not a fair comparison, though I have a feeling you're looking at the potential she's failing to realize. Autumn, from what I've gathered off of you guys talking about her, as I know nothing about her myself, doesn't care about the concept behind what her songs are about, they're a transformative work to her.

I don't have a personal attachment to ableism, so if you asked me to speak to people on why it's a bad thing, I wouldn't be able to do a very good job. And if Emilie Autumn thinks that her works can address problems well enough to affect change, that's her choice. Ultimately, when casualties arise, all we can do is help the affected and cut our losses.


----------



## orbit

The more months trickle by, the more I want my mouth shut.


----------



## Persephone Soul

@fair phantom thank you for your reply. May I asked which you watched?

I know I was super chill in my first one, yet awkward and didny know what to say. 

The next 2 (more recent ) with my husband, was less awkward/more talkative, yet more hyper (he does that to me lol). But the ability in thinking as I talk came out a lot more.


----------



## Adena

People big announcement! 

Me and my sister are doing a video NOW we need questions urghh


----------



## fair phantom

Paradise Rain said:


> @fair phantom thank you for your reply. May I asked which you watched?
> 
> I know I was super chill in my first one, yet awkward and didny know what to say.
> 
> The next 2 (more recent ) with my husband, was less awkward/more talkative, yet more hyper (he does that to me lol). But the ability in thinking as I talk came out a lot more.


I watched some of the one where you were by yourself and the first half hour or so of the first one with your husband)


----------



## Barakiel

OvalCat said:


> The more months trickle by, the more I want my mouth shut.


Don't worry, arguments come and go, the individual quarrels aren't really important. I for one, welcome controversy, makes life more interesting. :laughing:



Gray Romantic said:


> People big announcement!
> 
> Me and my sister are doing a video NOW we need questions urghh


Well, videos seem to be all the rage these days, that's for sure. :wink:


----------



## Adena

Barakiel said:


> Well, videos seem to be all the rage these days, that's for sure. :wink:


lol so just talk about random things?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> Don't worry, arguments come and go, the individual quarrels aren't really important. I for one, welcome controversy, makes life more interesting. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, videos seem to be all the rage these days, that's for sure. :wink:


My bad XD lol


----------



## Persephone Soul

Paradise Rain said:


> I caught him playin the Minions on the pot...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What me and the Hubbs like to do while alone....


Just a friendly reminder... these are probably more useful than my other 2. Please no pressure. I just wanna make sure if anyone listens to us ramble, these would be more helpful. But make sure you listen to what I am saying, and not how Im saying it. 

PS- My husband has ADHD and brings out my anxiety (but in a silly way) lol.


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> lol so just talk about random things?


To me, the good thing about videos are that you can witness visual examples of functions, it doesn't matter to me what you talk about, in fact, restricting you to specific questions will inhibit it. It's more _how you interact_ than what your answers are, at least for videos. :happy:


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Don't worry, arguments come and go, the individual quarrels aren't really important. I for one, welcome controversy, makes life more interesting. :laughing:


Why do you think I was talking about arguments?


----------



## Barakiel

OvalCat said:


> Why do you think I was talking about arguments?


You weren't? Ok then. :happy:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> To me, the good thing about videos are that you can witness visual examples of functions, it doesn't matter to me what you talk about, in fact, restricting you to specific questions will inhibit it. It's more _how you interact_ than what your answers are, at least for videos. :happy:


But then again, just being random leaves a lot of space for "umm ..uhhh...*giggle*" etc...

I found having questions formatted, helped a lot, because then we could just discuss and create dialogue off of each question (although i had an impatient baby rushing me). But still, it was better.
@Gray Romantic ... try to at least have a couple questions to brainstorm from...? Goodluck


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> You weren't? Ok then. :happy:


As a writer it's up to your own personal interpretation~


----------



## Barakiel

OvalCat said:


> As a writer it's up to your own personal interpretation~


Oh please, calling me a writer is like calling a novice swordsman a knight. Just seemed that way to me. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

Paradise Rain said:


> But then again, just being random leaves a lot of space for "umm ..uhhh...*giggle*" etc...
> 
> I found having questions formatted, helped a lot, because then we could just discuss and create dialogue off of each question (although i had an impatient baby rushing me). But still, it was better.
> @Gray Romantic ... try to at least have a couple questions to brainstorm from...? Goodluck


I'm not that way, really. Although I do function better when I'm being asked questions, which isn't possible in constructed videos, my eyes wander, and I jump to topics that people would never discuss. Makes it interesting when I talk to someone heatedly, and my eyes just see something so strange I have to interrupt myself, mid-sentence, to call attention to it. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

Paradise Rain said:


> I caught him playin the Minions on the pot...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What me and the Hubbs like to do while alone....


Ok, watched) I think you're Fi honestly...got more of an ISFP feeling from this video. The only thing making me think Fe is that you seem to want your husband in the video for 'verification' which...IDK, seems kinda Fe.
(Your husband struck me as an ESFP but you were talking about him using Fe so IDK. I could see STJ as well; how are you typing him?)


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> lol so just talk about random things?


 @Gray Romantic I second this, if you try to talk about some generic Fe/Fi Te/Ti things it might help, unfortunately I'm really tired right now and can't think of anything good, but maybe like: what are things you disagree on? Why? What are things you really agree on? or...ugh, brain not working, sorry, but I agree, when I'm watching videos I'm looking less at answers and more at dynamics)


----------



## Persephone Soul

@Princess Langwidere honestly, I wanted him with me, more of a crutch. I find it so weird talking to myself, so him being there, I was able to talk to him, or at least feel like he was in the conversation between me myself and i lol. Every time he left, I was like... noooo.... now I have to talk to myself again. We laughed about it later. I told him why i really needed him there, and he felt needed. 

I have always typed him as ESFP actually. I still think he is, but I know he is a E2w3, (2, 6, 8) pretty sure a so/sp. That may be why I am seeing Fe. Honestly I am fairly certain he is an ESFP. Me as an ISFP? I just don't know...hmmm...

Maybe next we'll do one, focusing on the perceiving functions. (I just need him for a prop  ).

But thank you! Goodnight


----------



## Dangerose

Paradise Rain said:


> @Princess Langwidere honestly, I wanted him with me, more of a crutch. I find it so weird talking to myself, so him being there, I was able to talk to him, or at least feel like he was in the conversation between me myself and i lol. Every time he left, I was like... noooo.... now I have to talk to myself again. We laughed about it later. I told him why i really needed him there, and he felt needed.
> 
> I have always typed him as ESFP actually. I still think he is, but I know he is a E2w3, (2, 6, 8) pretty sure a so/sp. That may be why I am seeing Fe. Honestly I am fairly certain he is an ESFP. Me as an ISFP? I just don't know...hmmm...
> 
> Maybe next we'll do one, focusing on the perceiving functions. (I just need him for a prop  ).
> 
> But thank you! Goodnight


Ok, at any rate you're most likely Fi-dom in my book.
G'night)


----------



## orbit

...there's a guy going around and telling everyone that they are an N type...

Improbable?


----------



## Dangerose

OvalCat said:


> ...there's a guy going around and telling everyone that they are an N type...
> 
> Improbable?


...where?
edit: nvm figured it out


----------



## Immolate

Princess Langwidere said:


> ...where?
> 
> 
> 
> edit: nvm figured it out





On my phone. Lazy. Do tell.




@fair phantom I had people over at the socionics forum telling me I should consider type 4 because I was emotional and had an attitude. Someone said I really wanted to be unique. (insert happy tears emoticon here)



Oh, I agree about @Paradise Rain. I see Fi.


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> On my phone. Lazy. Do tell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @fair phantom I had people over at the socionics forum telling me I should consider type 4 because I was emotional and had an attitude. Someone said I really wanted to be unique. (insert happy tears emoticon here)
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I agree about @Paradise Rain. I see Fi.


Everyone is an NP. 

You are unique c:

It's just so unfortunate that you have to try so hard


----------



## Immolate

OvalCat said:


> Everyone is an NP.
> 
> You are unique c:
> 
> It's just so unfortunate that you have to try so hard



I see.

The sweetest baby elephant.

I think when someone feels very strongly about what they are or aren't, we should do our best to respect that. Unfortunately the "you want a specific type" argument gets thrown around instead.


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> On my phone. Lazy. Do tell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @fair phantom I had people over at the socionics forum telling me I should consider type 4 because I was emotional and had an attitude. Someone said I really wanted to be unique. (insert happy tears emoticon here)
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I agree about @Paradise Rain. I see Fi.


I think just on the 'what's my type' forums.
See, this is what the intuitive bias leads to :/
I feel bad for not answering the 'what's my type' thing but I'm kinda waiting until I figure out...something about the typing system that makes me more confident. 
I guess I just feel that you have to hit these really high standards to get into the Fi or Ni camp and I'm not convinced it's so. 
Like...I feel like Fi users have to _never express emotion_ or care what people think of them or anything...and it doesn't seem like anyone does it that way.
And unless you're 'A Beautiful Mind'-ing your way through life you can't possibly be an NJ, which feels unlikely to me because I feel that...intelligence and personality type aren't the same and it stands to reason that there are stupid NJs as well as stupid SPs or whatever but...I feel like NJs are expected to know the secrets of the universe or something.
@Greyhart, I watched the very earnest man's video about 2 and...it didn't resonate at all. Wondering if I'm not 2 after all. Sandra Maitri's description did sound like me to a tee but...I'm not so sure anymore. I'm just not that helpful. :apthy: Nor do I take pleasure in bringing joy to people's lives. :saturn: I don't know what else I'd be though. I'll watch some others when I'm not dropping off to sleep, better able to judge.

He's very handsome and clearly passionate and with great intentions and just seems like a nice great person but something about his..._earn_estness grates on me a bit. Seems to have some valuable things to say though. Yeah, I'll watch the others tomorrow.

(In other words, if people have been holding back thoughts about my Enneagram because I seemed so sure, feel free to voice them now or any time; I never really care if people want to doubt me).


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I see.
> 
> The sweetest baby elephant.
> 
> I think when someone feels very strongly about what they are or aren't, we should do our best to respect that. Unfortunately the "you want a specific type" argument gets thrown around instead.


n.n

It seems MBTI isn't about accuracy by now (with all of the 8XX INTJs and 37 ISFPs) but whatever the typing that will help you the best whether it help you realize yourself or make you believe in blalala. Or at least that's what I think. The only time I think that argument should be used is that if the user has prejudice against functions or types but not really using that argument as an accusation. "You want to be this type because you appreciate these qualities and underestimate these qualities." 

Tis the problem is not that people want to be a certain type, but a certain person is saying everyone is an intuitive. It seems quite automatic. Alas, I'm not going to say anything because I'm not a good typist and therefore I can't do anything. Which makes me wonder why I brought it up. I don't expect anyone to see if there is a problem.


----------



## Immolate

@Princess Langwidere I agree. I've felt the same way about Fi and Ni.


----------



## Immolate

OvalCat said:


> n.n
> 
> It seems MBTI isn't about accuracy by now (with all of the 8XX INTJs and 37 ISFPs) but whatever the typing that will help you the best whether it help you realize yourself or make you believe in blalala. Or at least that's what I think. The only time I think that argument should be used is that if the user has prejudice against functions or types but not really using that argument as an accusation. "You want to be this type because you appreciate these qualities and underestimate these qualities."
> 
> Tis the problem is not that people want to be a certain type, but a certain person is saying everyone is an intuitive. It seems quite automatic. Alas, I'm not going to say anything because I'm not a good typist and therefore I can't do anything. Which makes me wonder why I brought it up. I don't expect anyone to see if there is a problem.


I'm sitting here extremely amused.


Also, I was mostly referring to people like @Paradise Rain. Look at how much she's had to do to convince people she doesn't relate to Fe :/


----------



## orbit

Princess Langwidere said:


> I think just on the 'what's my type' forums.
> See, this is what the intuitive bias leads to :/
> I feel bad for not answering the 'what's my type' thing but I'm kinda waiting until I figure out...something about the typing system that makes me more confident.
> I guess I just feel that you have to hit these really high standards to get into the Fi or Ni camp and I'm not convinced it's so.
> Like...I feel like Fi users have to _never express emotion_ or care what people think of them or anything...and it doesn't seem like anyone does it that way.
> And unless you're 'A Beautiful Mind'-ing your way through life you can't possibly be an NJ, which feels unlikely to me because I feel that...intelligence and personality type aren't the same and it stands to reason that there are stupid NJs as well as stupid SPs or whatever but...I feel like NJs are expected to know the secrets of the universe or something.
> @Greyhart, I watched the very earnest man's video about 2 and...it didn't resonate at all. Wondering if I'm not 2 after all. Sandra Maitri's description did sound like me to a tee but...I'm not so sure anymore. I'm just not that helpful. :apthy: Nor do I take pleasure in bringing joy to people's lives. :saturn: I don't know what else I'd be though. I'll watch some others when I'm not dropping off to sleep, better able to judge.
> 
> He's very handsome and clearly passionate and with great intentions and just seems like a nice great person but something about his..._earn_estness grates on me a bit. Seems to have some valuable things to say though. Yeah, I'll watch the others tomorrow.
> 
> (In other words, if people have been holding back thoughts about my Enneagram because I seemed so sure, feel free to voice them now or any time; I never really care if people want to doubt me).


I was NTP for a while because I was seen as intelligent and someone who thinks.

Trying to type when I wasn't confident made me uncomfortable so I agree ^^

I hit the Fi camp by arguing that I was Fe whoops. I show quite a bit of emotion obviously and EXFPs are known for "being bubbly". Quite the contradiction. Sterotypes suck.


----------



## Immolate

OvalCat said:


> I was NTP for a while because I was seen as intelligent and someone who thinks.
> 
> Trying to type when I wasn't confident made me uncomfortable so I agree ^^
> 
> I hit the Fi camp by arguing that I was Fe whoops. I show quite a bit of emotion obviously and EXFPs are known for "being bubbly". Quite the contradiction. Sterotypes suck.



I remember when Bear argued you were Ti because you had Deep Thoughts


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> I'm sitting here extremely amused.
> 
> 
> Also, I was mostly referring to people like @Paradise Rain. Look at how much she's had to do to convince people she doesn't relate to Fe :/


I took you more seriously than I should have probably. I'm sorry but it appears that I do not have a sense of humor. I lost it trekking across the savannah. Maybe someone will find it. 

Hm. I feel bad for both the people who could possibly mistyped and people like her. They see what they see and want to back them up and given how much prejudice and ignorance about functions go around (i.e. basing ethical typing on expressiveness ><), I can see why they might be skeptical. But then again, Paradise Rain had to go through a lot of frustration and she has more than enough wits to know herself. I think it's not really anyone's fault but the situation because there were miscommunications on both sides.

--------——----------———--------
I thought I was Fe because I was expressive and sometimes don't know what I'm feeling. That's just my enneagram, I think. Kind of. 

I'm glad I realized I was not Ne though but at the same time, I didn't want Se because it sounded like a shallow function. 

My thoughts aren't any deeper than the next person. Then again, I'm perpetually confused when people say something or someone is profound.


----------



## Darkbloom

@Princess Langwidere, you do seem more Fe-ish!
Your brother could be ESTJ,definitely some sort of ExTx
@Paradise Rain, still getting Fi from you XD
Your husband is ESxP for sure



Anyway, Princess L, I watched the video too and I could relate to things, like, to going from doing stuff for others without really being asked to do anything to just snapping and losing everyone.But, by "doing things for others" I don't mean concrete stuff like chores,or even gifts and similar, it's more like just being certain way for others. Like, as a child I sometimes dressed how my father thought was ideal to make him happy,or like,I did well in school although I never cared about school,I tried to be interested in things he liked,etc. and last year when I was in a very miserable state I constantly brought it up in some way,felt like he had to know that all the things he loved about me were created _for_ him (before I always pretended it's natural me)
And like, if I just talk to someone boring I see it as me being friendly and generous and I get...angry,in a way, if for example my mother calls me any unflattering names like selfish or mean (even playfully) after I've been entertaining her for whole afternoon by talking to her and enduring all the Ne brainstorming FOR HER.
Edit: I don't find my mother boring, not always at least lol
But you get what I mean

Does that sound 2?
I don't know, but it doesn't sound 3 either, or particularly 4


----------



## 68097

Pressed Flowers said:


> As for John Green... he taught me what Ne and I guess Te were with his whole "the story belongs to you! I have no right to assert what I think happened in the story on any of you!" And I go, uhh, yeah, you do, you're the author, different personal versions of your story belong to your readers, but ultimately it's you in the forefront... since it's _your story_. They ask about a specific interpretation of his character, he goes, "Yeah... I don't know." And I go "what even."[realizing this isn't helping my "I can be kind to authors" point.]


Yeah, that's... Fi. His Fi. LOL



Avalnoah said:


> I don't know, I agree with Greene that the book ultimately is a relationship between the reader and piece itself. Greene doesn't need to explain shit about his interpretation of the story, and it would be boring if we took the author's interpretation as the best one. Sure, maybe he can respond better to fan response by stating "that's an interesting view, etc" but he doesn't need to explain his personal views on the work unless he wants to.


Oh, look. YOUR Fi. 

Anyone is free to draw anything they like from my books, but ultimately what I meant by it supersedes all else, because I am the creator. It dances to my tune. I intend certain things through my writing, not internal abstract ruminations. That's MY Fe. 



Avalnoah said:


> Well of course that's reasonable that you would find a different view of literature. INFPs and ENFJs are contrary types (introverted/extroverted function switch). As for his looseness, I sort of see it as an Fi thing; that the interpretation of literature should be completely to one's own feelings rather than creating a emotional consensus, but I could be entirely wrong.


This. This is precisely it. Fi at its finest. Though the story means something to him, he cannot quite explain it, because it is the realm of personalized abstract emotional responses. 



fair phantom said:


> Nicholas Sparks is an INFP? NOOOO WHYYYYYYYY.
> 
> I hope you aren't suggesting that INFP writers can't say meaningful things with their writing.


I didn't say Nicholas Sparks was an INFP, no. I very much doubt it. He's a Si-dom writer, probably, and not a very imaginative one. Same formula, every book. He just changes up who dies. No, I merely meant that he is on my list of authors I refuse to read because I know they will attack my emotions and make me cry.

As to the latter, you have interacted with me enough by now to probably know the answer to that -- and it's no, I did not suggest that.


----------



## 68097

Bugs said:


> Too many. Something like only 5% of Southern whites owned slaves and most southern whites were poverty stricken anyway and didn't live in much better conditions than slaves. On top of that a small percentage of the transatlantic slave trade only found business in the U.S. Most of the transatlantic slave trading was done in the Caribbean and South America ( Brazil in particular). On top of that most captured slaves in Africa went to the Middle East/ Northern Africa and they were treated even more brutally such as mandatory castration of males.


Don't say this too loud. This might debunk some delusions.



Pressed Flowers said:


> And... as for white people, I think that's seen as revolutionary in its own sense... which I used to scorn, but now I can see the idea. White people are _always_ given humanity in stories. They're the main characters. Having a few stereotypically evil slave owners isn't going to do any harm. It might make some people in the audience briefly uncomfortable, but... That's what people of ethnic minorities have been dealing with since they could recognize themselves on television. I think we can handle that much... We just have to learn to.


But what if that's ALL THERE IS... for decades? It ceases to be exploratory and becomes inflammatory, because it's instilling an idea in the minds of the audience that the behavior of a some was standard practices in those days.

I just have a problem with black and white characterization in general, with straight up depictions of good or evil. The stereotypically evil white plantation owner offends me just like A.D.'s stereotypically evil Roman Pontius Pilate offends me. Give me nuance. Give me complexity. Give me depth. Humans are not all good, or all evil.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> Oh, of course. But that's what makes the authors who actually do seem to give a single care for non-white people in their novels the... shine, what makes them stand out. If someone writes a stereotype, it says a lot about them as a person that I think they would rather not have said. But if someone actually makes a character of a different ethnicity and gives them _life_, actual characterization... it only takes so much effort, I think, and it goes a long way.
> 
> And... as for white people, I think that's seen as revolutionary in its own sense... which I used to scorn, but now I can see the idea. White people are _always_ given humanity in stories. They're the main characters. Having a few stereotypically evil slave owners isn't going to do any harm. It might make some people in the audience briefly uncomfortable, but... That's what people of ethnic minorities have been dealing with since they could recognize themselves on television. I think we can handle that much... We just have to learn to.


Although I agree with you, I'm not sure I trust some people to write good main characters.


----------



## Bugs

angelcat said:


> Don't say this too loud. This might debunk some delusions.


Don't even get me started on Lincoln lol


----------



## Future2Future

angelcat said:


> Don't say this too loud. This might debunk some delusions.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> But what if that's ALL THERE IS... for decades? It ceases to be exploratory and becomes inflammatory, because it's instilling an idea in the minds of the audience that the behavior of a some was standard practices in those days.


tread lightly


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I just have a problem with black and white characterization in general, with straight up depictions of good or evil. The stereotypically evil white plantation owner offends me just like A.D.'s stereotypically evil Roman Pontius Pilate offends me. Give me nuance. Give me complexity. Give me depth. Humans are not all good, or all evil.


You might have luck with Kindred. I've been meaning to read it myself. I really like Octavia Butler's work.


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> You might have luck with Kindred. I've been meaning to read it myself. I really like Octavia Butler's work.


Yes _Kindred_ did an excellent job with this. It was chilling and thought-provoking to see the effects of slavery as an institution on both white and black characters (almost all possessing both good and bad traits*) as time passed. Such a good book.

*minor characters could come across as more clearly bad or good.


----------



## orbit

Bugs said:


> Don't even get me started on Lincoln lol


-poke-

What is history.


----------



## 68097

I should go -- my company is stirring, but... I highly recommend this film. It's wonderful.






It tackles bigotry on all levels, and is just ... beautifully written and acted and inclusive. If you're going to write powerful stories, this is what you aim for. Complexity. Nuance. Depth. 

Might actually watch this with my guests this afternoon. I think they would all enjoy it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I know about slavery, and I used to find that so incredible - that we only had so many slaves in America, when no one talked about the horrors that the Spanish did to their slaves. The things that went down in Brazil. And, slaves weren't treated that badly. I have ancestors who were terribly abused by the U.S., but then I also have ancestors who are significant figures in the Cindederate effort. I didn't justify slavery to myself - nothing can make that right, obviously - but I have justified the South. They were just making a living, right? That was just a culture they had? And, of course, not all of them owned slaves. my specific ancestor in this history books did not own slaves. Though of course they never talk about that. 

But... I've come to realize that... You still don't say what I just said. I feel uncomfortable sharing it even now in the attempt to make a point. Yes, slaves were treated worse in South and Central America. No, there weren't as many as there were in other countries. But you know what? They still suffered. I defend my ancestors, but the ancestors I didn't know about literally tried to annihilate the ancestors of other people I know. And bringing up statistics about how the U.S. and its slavery wasn't that bad does a lot to undermine the suffering endured by slavery, one of the biggest stains of injustice that Americans (myself included) like to pretend isn't there. Yes, other slaves had it worse in other countries. But in my country, slaves still went through hell. We studied that in school, but I think any firsthand account of slavery would give you the same information. 

I used to think also, that... We need to give the U.S. a break. I've told Oval before, at least two times, a certain non-European country personally terrorized my grandfather. They tortured him. Tried to wipe out his entire family. His childhood was shaped by their destruction. But... we don't hear about that. We don't hear about how Africans were selling Africans, and that's how the slave trade started. We don't hear about the countless injustices done by other countries, all the accounts of slavery in nearly every ancient culture. 

But... It's different, I think. One, we have to focus on our own issues before we can condemn others. Two, it's different because... America prides itself on being the land of the free. And to my knowledge, it always has. That's what our Founding Fathers thought it did. But they had slaves. They were _possessing_ an entire population of people, an entire race. And that mindset continues today, as people of different minorities suffer and suffer but America turns a blind eye... because we're already perfect. We have that mindset. I once had that mindset. I think it's important that we not only learn about slavery and the civil rights movement, but that we also recognize that America has to _continually_ be a spring for actual freedom and true justice. Perfection of virtue will never be achieved, and for that reason I think it is crucial that we learn how to keep striving for it in real time.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

angelcat said:


> I should go -- my company is stirring, but... I highly recommend this film. It's wonderful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It tackles bigotry on all levels, and is just ... beautifully written and acted and inclusive. If you're going to write powerful stories, this is what you aim for. Complexity. Nuance. Depth.
> 
> Might actually watch this with my guests this afternoon. I think they would all enjoy it.


When I first saw that on your blog, what, almost a year ago, I instantly went to check it out. On the Internet, at least. It looks incredible. I need to watch it. But alas, I don't know where to find it


----------



## 68097

Pressed Flowers said:


> When I first saw that on your blog, what, almost a year ago, I instantly went to check it out. On the Internet, at least. It looks incredible. I need to watch it. But alas, I don't know where to find it


You're not kidding. You can't stream this anywhere.

I wound up buying the BluRay after its release.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> I used to think also, that... We need to give the U.S. a break. I've told Oval before, at least two times, a certain non-European country personally terrorized my grandfather. They tortured him. Tried to wipe out his entire family. His childhood was shaped by their destruction. But... we don't hear about that. We don't hear about how Africans were selling Africans, and that's how the slave trade started. We don't hear about the countless injustices done by other countries, all the accounts of slavery in nearly every ancient culture.


We do hear about it. I've heard it almost every time someone tries to defend past history, and it always comes across empty because there's no point in comparing. It doesn't justify or excuse. That said, yes, I agree with your main point.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> We do hear about it. I've heard it almost every time someone tries to defend past history, and it always comes across empty because there's no point in comparing. It doesn't justify or excuse. That said, yes, I agree with your main point.


I will say that in my AP classes, this was definitely stressed. My professors stress it now, the injustices done worldwide throughout history. 
And it is terrible that it is used as a silencing tool. Which... I mean, I've experienced firsthand how that works. And I imagine I've done it to some extent myself. 

I do think that we need to... recognize the injustices done to people in smaller countries. I don't even know what the refugees I taught went through, anything about their politics... because things are so muddled. You can know what's going on in China and Korea and _America_, but... We forget less significant states too often. If we remember them, we get like with feminism where we try to justify our misogyny by saying, "oh, look at those poor oppressed Indian women!!" and that spreads to issues like race, it becomes very counterproductive... but I hope that someday we find a way to tell the stories of those who are outside of America and being harmed without using their troubles to gaslight the struggles of those today. It's difficult to make people stop using that as a comparison, but... Maybe someday we'll all realize how hypocritical and illogical those stances are.

[and... I don't know. It's a small thing to have an opinion, about, but... I think of my grandfather. People have no idea what he's suffered, what his family is going through even now (not here, but overseas). People don't realize that the refugees I've worked with have... been through terrible things, terrible conditions. It's a small thing, I guess, people recognizing what they've gone through, but it bothers me all the same.]


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> I will say that in my AP classes, this was definitely stressed. My professors stress it now, the injustices done worldwide throughout history.
> And it is terrible that it is used as a silencing tool. Which... I mean, I've experienced firsthand how that works. And I imagine I've done it to some extent myself.
> 
> I do think that we need to... recognize the injustices done to people in smaller countries. I don't even know what the refugees I taught went through, anything about their politics... because things are so muddled. You can know what's going on in China and Korea and _America_, but... We forget less significant states too often. If we remember them, we get like with feminism where we try to justify our misogyny by saying, "oh, look at those poor oppressed Indian women!!" and that spreads to issues like race, it becomes very counterproductive... but I hope that someday we find a way to tell the stories of those who are outside of America and being harmed without using their troubles to gaslight the struggles of those today. It's difficult to make people stop using that as a comparison, but... Maybe someday we'll all realize how hypocritical and illogical those stances are.


Hm, I'm not sure if this popped up because I came across a certain way, like I dismiss what goes on in other countries. On the contrary. My brother and I were the first of my family to be born in the U.S. My father even refuses to visit his country until he feels it treats its people right. The point is what you expressed, that comparisons are used as a silencing tool.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Hm, I'm not sure if this popped up because I came across a certain way, like I dismiss what goes on in other countries. On the contrary. My brother and I were the first of my family to be born in the U.S. My father even refuses to visit his country until he feels it treats its people right. The point is what you expressed, that comparisons are used as a silencing tool.


I was aware of that - from your other posts, your Socionics thread went into that a little - and in no way did I think that's what you meant. I actually value what you're saying very much because of that, and in some ways I feel silly disagreeing. That's why I explained how I feel about international awareness from small countries, not because I thought you were dismissive of other countries. I know that's certainly not something you suffer ignorance of.


----------



## Adena

Youtube is so dumb? Like what the hell?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gray Romantic said:


> Youtube is so dumb? Like what the hell?


What did it do?


----------



## Adena

Pressed Flowers said:


> What did it do?


lol I uploaded a 15 minutes video and it's like "nah now it will be 5 minutes" like mhm ok


----------



## Pressed Flowers

On a lighter note, 

Last night I was thinking about a fictional character I love. Studying 9s, I've realized this character is certainly a 9 with a weak 1 wing, who has SP/SX instincts, and who I also recognize is an ISFJ. And I was doing that silly thing where we think "ah, if only I knew a person like this character, we could be friends!" 

... and then I remembered that I already have a 9w1 SP/SX ISFJ best friend...


----------



## orbit

shinynotshiny said:


> Energy level, your ability to concentrate, if you get frustrated or irritated more easily, feeling more restless than you usually are. I can't really give a list because it's so different for people. I hope it isn't depression, but if you've had a depressive episode before, it's good to recognize any signs or symptoms so you can ward off any other episodes


I wasn't tired last time and I cried a lot so hm. Maybe a different case? I'm horrible at comparing situations and recognizing mental health issues though :/

The strength in my upper body is coming back. I think forcing myself to move around is helping. n.n



fair phantom said:


> @OvalCat is it hot where you are? Dehydration can cause tiredness. Actually so can sleep period. May also want to check iron intake or eat something with Omega 3s.
> 
> Even if you have gotten enough sleep, if you woke middle cycle or got poor quality sleep that could be an issue.
> 
> sleepyti.me bedtime calculator This tool can help you to figure out when to wake up/go to bed so that you have complete sleep cycles.
> 
> I hope it isn't depression!


Thank you and I'm increasing the water intake. I've been waking up at 5 am but it's natural and been happening for a month now so unless it's a delayed reaction... Thank you for the advice! Hopefully it'll pass and it's just some weird incident. 




> I used to think I was so much deeper than other people but then I turned 17.
> 
> By now I've learned that people hide so many things that often there's no way of telling how shallow or deep they truly are. So unless they're flaunting it right in my face, I try to refrain from judging.


I agree with this but I also just don't get the concept of deepness in general very much. It seems kind of useless and snowflakey. 

I think people hiding stuff isn't so much intentional sometimes but sometimes it is... I'm growing more aware that I sometimes I forget things that I was showing like three months ago.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

It's ridiculous, but I like waking up in the middle of the night. It's very nice to have time after to fall back asleep, as opposed to waking at like 7 and only having maybe 30 minutes to drowse before you're actually required to _get up!_


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> It's ridiculous, but I like waking up in the middle of the night. It's very nice to have time after to fall back asleep, as opposed to waking at like 7 and only having maybe 30 minutes to drowse before you're actually required to _get up!_


Well, yes, waking up and realizing you have three hours left of sleep is pretty amazing, but the problem is when you can't go back to sleep or you continually wake up during the night :nonchalance:


----------



## fair phantom

ElliCat said:


> @NobleRaven Love everything you wrote about Fi.


Ditto



> My mother does this too. Pretty much every time we disagree with her she's all, "but you don't understand what I'm saying!!" and it's like, "nope, we actually get it, it's just that we think you're wrong," lol. I don't mean to say that @Princess Langwidere is as bad as her (my mother is a bit of an extreme example) but it does lend credence to the idea that it's insecurity stemming from lower-but-still-valued Ti.
> 
> Of course the problem is that there's no way to actually verify whether we truly do understand, or if we just think that we do. I mean in my family's case I'm fairly sure we do understand her most of the time (her views aren't exactly the most... nuanced) but when it comes to someone like Princess L who actually does spend time thinking and trying to flesh out her views, it's probably a bit more complicated.


Yes. I find this happens with my mother too. But she is more like yours than she is like @Princess Langwidere , who is helping me to overcome my ESFJ issues. My mom just shuts down when it comes to a situation where she should use Ti, Princess L clearly makes the effort to think things through. However, I can see how she could get frustrated dealing with high Te, because it is good at giving the impression that it doesn't understand. When dealing with TJs (and TPs for that matter), I find it is helpful to assume that they want/expect you to counter their arguments if you disagree, nbd (that is, if they are healthy and not bullies).



> I've never heard of Genetic Denim but they sound amazing. I wound up with a pair of Levi's jeggings because they look more like skinnies on me (my sister swears by them) but I'm really disappointed because the thighs stretched way out within 6 months and they now bunch awkwardly around my knees. I sized down too, so that's not the issue (I would've made that error had she not been with me).
> 
> I was advised to do the same thing regarding low waist, but I'd actually like to find a high-waisted pair that fit because I want to be able to tuck blouses in occassionally, and a high waist is more flattering on me.


Definitely check out Genetic Denim. They are expensive retail price but sale sites can be a big help there. I got my pair for under $60 and I've had them for about 5 years and they have retained their shape!



> WOAH me too! And I'm a bit wider than usual around the forefoot so often it happens that the heel is too wide and the forefoot is being squished. :blue: Very occasionally I can get away with punching an extra hole in the ankle strap but that's rare.
> 
> And my shoulders are apparently too wide, too. The fashion industry just doesn't seem to like my body full-stop.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes, I've done the extra hole punch thing too. But now I'm all about the gel inserts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funnily enough it took a holiday to South East Asia for me to learn it! I wasn't going to (panic attacks can be deadly underwater) but my boyfriend's into it and when he went in to book a dive I started feeling left out and decided to see if I could handle it. The asthma was a potential problem but oddly enough when I went to a doctor to get an official document saying it was okay, he was more worried about my eyesight? Even though you can get prescription goggles if it's that much of an issue? :confused2:
> 
> Ah, calling her out on the double standard. Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh cool! Where in SE asia did you go?
> 
> Yeah. I'm so glad my siblings did the cohabiting thing before I did. Because now my mother can't say anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, at that point it's really not worth arguing. I never bring stuff up with her anymore. The problem is that often she can't let things go. Last election she was lecturing our whole family every time a political ad came on the TV, and it was so bad that even my father (who mostly agrees with her politically) was telling her to put a cork in it, hahaha. I think it was the preachiness rubbing his Fi the wrong way - he knew we disagreed and that it wouldn't be appreciated. I think he phrased it like, "we've done our best in raising them with good values and if they want to vote in a different way, that's their decision and we have to respect that."
> 
> She argued that she wasn't preaching, though. I think she genuinely believes the sky will cave in and the country will fall apart if we vote for the wrong politicians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh dear I would probably explode if my mom did that (I'm wondering if I should change my gut fix to 8 lol). My mom at least takes the position of: "I respect your opinions and admire your passion". I think it is because she knows that I still have strong values and that my lifestyle isn't as liberal as my politics.
> 
> It is more that I wind up feeling hurt. She opposed the affordable care act even after all i'd been through, even knowing that because I have "pre-existing conditions" I couldn't buy health insurance. If the ACA hadn't passed I think I would have had no choice but to emigrate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's a similar false dichotomy in our system too. Criticise someone's preferred party and they'll be all, "WELL THE OTHER PARTY..." Well 1. we're not talking about the other party in this moment, and 2. I happen to think they're just as bad as this first party. And then they'll complain about how awful this two-party system is, but when you remind them that they can actually vote for a number of minor parties to help shift the balance of power, they'll tell you it's a wasted vote.
> 
> So basically they're upholding the two-party system of their own free will (due to ignorance of how the voting system actually works) and then complaining about it.
> 
> Shit like this is why I wanted to get out so badly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is hard here because on the one hand, someone really awful could get into office if people on the left vote for the Green party or someone else. I used to live in _the_ swing state so voting third party really did not seem like an option. But how will things change if we don't collectively decide to say ENOUGH. A part of me is still hoping Bloomberg will run for president as an independent because he might have enough money and name recognition to make alternative parties seem viable. Or maybe if Bernie Sanders doesn't get the Dem nomination he'll run as an independent (sorry if none of this makes sense to non-US people).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also went into childcare thinking that I could reason with kids who were acting out. Apparently how I experienced my childhood is not how the majority of humanity experiences their childhood. I'm shocked, truly. :th_sur:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OOF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think it's worth reaching out when you know someone's just not educated about the topic, and when they seem open to discussion. I don't think that ridiculing someone to their face is ever going to get them on your side, and it's amazing how many people seem to think this will work. I can understand doing it out of frustration when someone is being wilfully ignorant, but again I'd be wary of doing it in public because maybe that person won't change their mind, but what about the other people who agree with them and might be open to a discussion? Congratulations, you've just turned them off too!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly. I mean I used to hold very different views on certain things; people can change their minds! But I think a lot of people dig in their heels when met with scorn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full-on Lolita is too over the top for me, but I love some individual pieces and I appreciate it on other people. Funnily enough one of my INFP friends is into it too. She's mentioned wanting to dress me up sometime but I'm never game enough to ask.
> 
> I think she's had similar experiences to @Greyhart's friend too. She often hangs out with other women who are into it and apparently they even get people coming up and touching them without permission. I find that creepy. I also have a problem with the assumption that they're doing it for the attention - I know this INFP in particular is not and just, like me, feels the need to dress in a way that feels right to her - but I guess that's just projecting on the part of people who _do_ do things for the attention.
> 
> I love mori kei too. Doesn't suit me, but I've subscribed to a lot of that sort of thing on tumblr. :fall:
> 
> 
> 
> I could never do it all the time. But for like, a party it would be fun. I'll never do it though because I've heard it is really expensive.
> 
> What is so hard for some people to understand: just because some people dress for attention (which is perfectly fine), doesn't mean that all do, and if someone _is_ dressing for attention, that doesn't mean they want people to go beyond looking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always put it down to having Italian genes. I'm pretty sure everyone in my immediately family does it, minus my dad (who has no ancestors from the Mediterranean area). Perhaps one of those things that a lot of people do for different reasons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah yes it is an Italian thing. I think it must be different people different reasons because to my knowledge I have no Italian heritage. Mine is mostly Irish.
> 
> However many of the people where I grew up were of Italian descent. Hmm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I do it that. So you could still be either one!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll continue to straddle this line then!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @hoopla Signed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Also signed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GUYS I am lonely and cranky tonight. Warned the boyfriend on my day off that we would be going out for dinner at some point over the course of my working week and he said he was keen. Told him yesterday morning that we'd do it last night and he agreed. He then bailed on me to go to some shitty car thing with some friends and didn't even have a good time. Told him it was fine and we'd do it tonight. Apparently he then found it appropriate to wait until an hour before I finished work to go off and do the thing he'd been planning to do all day, and has left me alone all evening, and appears to have forgotten all about it. The whole point in me wanting to eat out is so that I can come back from work and not have to worry about cooking myself something decent for dinner. He knows this, because I have told him. But he always forgets, because it doesn't personally bother him. Goddammit. I feel like it's such a petty thing for me to be upset over but I am really disappointed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is so disappointing. I'd have a talk with him about it. Sit him down and let him know that it was important to you and that you would like for him to not be such a flake (maybe rephrase that last part :angel If he has trouble remembering then he should learn ways to remember. write himself notes or set a cell phone alarm or...something.
> 
> :hugs:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Fe rant:


* *




I feel so alone. Really really alone. I'm not the only person in the world with an autistic family member, no. I still feel so lonely. Honestly I really want a lot of hugs and support and attention and to be pitied. I am a big martyrdom today. That's disgusting and nasty of me but I just want to be a big huge baby with people holding my hand and ranting about the big bads in this world. Spoil me.

There is so much I could say about this, particularly the history of my sister's development but I'll refrain. The bottom line is my mother kicked me out of her house when I mentioned that MMS is classified as a bleaching agent and the FDA issued a safety warning. "BULLSHIT. YOU CAN GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY HOUSE! NOW!" Why did you invite me over then. "YOU BETTER NOT USE THIS FUCKING SHIT ON MY SISTER!" I hollered as I felt like breaking something whilst slamming the door behind me.

My mom recommended I use this MMS cream she purchased and I brushed it off as alternative medicine hooey. Oh it's more than hooey. It's dangerous as hell. Since it's concentrated in a cream and my mom is likely inconsistent, mom hasn't noticed any detrimental side affects. Well the oral liquid has killed children. My mom is ignorant enough to believe any side effects like vomiting are a detox of mercury. I don't even know what treatments she plans to conduct. I've designed a short and sweet speech to use later, and I'm hoping she won't cut me off like always. I need to devise ways to keep my sister safe (and it's not the police because MMS is not illegal to sell/use in the US). 

My sister is in a very unique situation. My mother's ex moved across the state... it was court approved... when she was 4. He's remarried. She comes over here every summer, but my mother is moving back this year. I'm going to call her family and warn them. Unfortunately the step mom is huge into alternative medicine (my sis eats GFCF (the celiac test came out negative btw) and is taking b12 shots and magnesium), but maybe she'll keep my sister safe. Maybe she has more sense.

Children in the US are being subjected to this. I know children who cannot defend themselves are getting enemas stuck up their asses. That's equivlant to an anal probe. Could you imagine someone doing that against your will?

When I was a preteen my friends would ask if my sister was slow or retarded. She's always treated like some big freak or space alien. I understand her family wants the best for her. She is also a pain to handle... some of it is a bit deeper than her autism if you ask me, but I digress. I too would like for her to be able to order at a restaurant without saying "um... um... um... um... um..." and having to be prompted to answer when the waitress enters our table. I want her to be independent if she can. I want her to be happy! 

If she always flaps her hands and speaks in a balky voice that is ok as long as she is happen. I don't feel a strong bond or connect with her, and I feel very guilty about it. But as long as she is happy, that's fine. My mother sobs about how she should have never had her. She regrets that child. Honestly what she wants is a normal child because she horrifies her just for being a weirdo... it is deeper than wanting her as well adjusted as possible. Yeah... she embarrasses me in public. I'll be honest. But if she is happy and copes in her own way, that's all we need. She has sobbed about how she hates who and what she is. To my mother, more points for a cure! To me.... more points towards treating her to love herself. My sister is also only 12... give her time. She might learn how to cope in her own unique way.

I mean, my mom will harm my sister's health out of ignorance and call me stupid just to get what she wants. It's hard and isolating and I want to break down. I ate earlier and now I'm nauseated. She's not loved. My mom doesn't want a happy child. She wants a normal one. It's horrible.




I'm not going to talk today. I might go do something for the fourth just because I need to distract myself. I just feel very alone so I apologize for being whiny (I'm not getting deep into this with people irl to die down drama despite sharing the link w/ friends and on fb).

Thanks to everyone who signed.

I am semi nauseated. I knew eating would not help.

that's riddled with spelling errors but w/e.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla What your mother is doing is wrong, and it is both brave and heroic of you to stand up for your sister. Something has to be done. And even though this is very painful for you, it is important that you step up and make the point that you are making. Hopefully your sister will be well, especially since you do think your mother loves her, and I'm sure the way you brought it up will stick with her. Beyond that though, I hope you find a way to make a good Fourth for yourself while this settles in. 

(Also, I signed the petition.)


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> It's Tumblr getting to me, but my biggest problem with John Green's actual books is _all the white people_. Like, solely white characters. Except in _Paper Towns_, I guess, but there I don't even think race was handled respectfully at all.
> 
> Nicholas Sparks is even worse, isn't he? Pretty sure all his characters are white, at least the leads.
> 
> It's not really something I'd want to go up in arms about, but it is something that I think they could do a lot better about.


Again, no opinions about John Green but...people tend to write about what they know and I think it would be difficult, for me, say, to write a black character or another racial minority in the modern age because...I don't know what it's like at all, I haven't really known any black people, and...sure, Tumblr brings it up about black people being underrepresented, but they also attack portrayals of black people which are negative or too positive or they die or whatever, and...it's an uncomfortable can of worms.

I think the way for black people to be more represented is to have more black people being prominent writers or voices in the media. Otherwise there will be a lot of cardboard-cutout black characters who won't have anything to do with that culture or ethnicity and just be there to tick certain boxes.

That said! I just noticed that I do have several black characters in one of my stories...plus a couple Middle-Easterners in the same story. The others...I'm racking my brain, I had an African giant in one of them who was probably black I guess, and if I write the Isolde story I'll have Palomides who was Muslim, probably Moroccan (but I'm setting this pre-Islam so I'll have to figure out what to do there). Most of my time periods are just wrong for it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> Again, no opinions about John Green but...people tend to write about what they know and I think it would be difficult, for me, say, to write a black character or another racial minority in the modern age because...I don't know what it's like at all, I haven't really known any black people, and...sure, Tumblr brings it up about black people being underrepresented, but they also attack portrayals of black people which are negative or too positive or they die or whatever, and...it's an uncomfortable can of worms.
> 
> I think the way for black people to be more represented is to have more black people being prominent writers or voices in the media. Otherwise there will be a lot of cardboard-cutout black characters who won't have anything to do with that culture or ethnicity and just be there to tick certain boxes.
> 
> That said! I just noticed that I do have several black characters in one of my stories...plus a couple Middle-Easterners in the same story. The others...I'm racking my brain, I had an African giant in one of them who was probably black I guess, and if I write the Isolde story I'll have Palomides who was Muslim, probably Moroccan (but I'm setting this pre-Islam so I'll have to figure out what to do there). Most of my time periods are just wrong for it.


This is something I'm pretty wary of, because I know no matter what I do I will probably be accused of racism. But... Most of my characters are not white. The predominant race in my story is non-European. I have maybe... two white characters out of twelve in the main cast. One of them is a main character (one of three), but the other two main characters are Filipino (or Filipina, more specifically) and Chinese. 

And... They aren't cardboard characters. I made them all equally real. In the wider cast, the "main" characters who don't have consistent perspectives, I have a Middle Eastern boy, a girl who thinks she's Japanese, the Filipina girl's brother, the other white girl, an African American (not sure their actual gender yet, it's complicated), and a Jewish girl who is a central character, along with the African-American love interest (not really, but I guess, she's not actually a love interest but... complicated). 

The different ethnicities serve a purpose. I actually decided their ethnicities after the fact... I saw them as balls of personality first, and then physical characteristics grew outwards. I know I will be criticized for being insensitive in some areas, but once I write it and get a publisher I will listen to what I can do to be as appropriate and respectful as possible while still maintaining my character's identities (as in, if I get a publisher who thinks it won't sell without more white characters... my story's not going to sell at all with that publisher, because I would leave them). 

I understand why other authors would shy away from it, but... I intend to do the opposite. I don't want to write about the experience of racism, because I only experience light racism and only have the accounts from my aunts and grandfather, but I think it is still something that needs to be touched on in writing.


----------



## fair phantom

I am forever grateful that I grew up where I did. In gradeschool, 3 black kids in my classes lived in millionaire dollar homes. So the idea that writing in a black character would result in street stereotypes is kind of bizarre to me. They were wealthier than I was. Their parents were together; mine weren't. One had parents from Ethiopia, the others had been in America since slavery times (though I think in at least one case they were descended from free blacks in the north. People seem to forget that there were free black people in the north during the colonial era. They fought in the Revolutionary war too. When I went to highschool maybe 20% of the kids were black. Some still rich, others there on scholarship who apparently struggled with people in their neighborhoods accusing them of being "too white". But they still didn't have parents in jail or anything. Their parents were probably in the same income bracket as mine.

There are so many narratives to tell besides the "ghetto" stereotype.

Yes we need more prominent authors of various races and orientations and backgrounds. But I think white people should make an effort to read authors of other races that _are already writing_ (see also: straight reading queer, men reading women, women reading men, black reading latino, etc). That is how they _become_ prominent. Shonda Rhimes' shows aren't successful just because black people watch them. We all benefit from going outside our comfort zones, learning how other people think, and feel, and live, and _write_. Octavia Butler should be as big of a name as the big 3 of scifi. _Invisible Man_ should be as widely read as _The Great Gatsby_.

Sorry. Soapboxing. But I'm passionate about literature's role in helping people understand each other.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I live in one of the most diverse counties, in one of the most diverse states, and I went to the most diverse school in my county. My ironically non-white mom finds my school "dangerous" now and doesn't want my easily influenced sister anywhere near it, but... I owe so much to that environment. Stereotypes? What is that? I mean, yes you had people who fit stereotypical descriptions, but... You learned that that's not what they were. They were a person. They are a person. People are people, regardless how much money they make or where they live or what skin color they have or how many socially wrong things they've done. I don't know if I would have learned that if I went to the school my cousin (he's mixed like me but also white like me) went to, where all the kids were white and they're notoriously racist. Environment can be very impactful in that way. And thank goodness I was impacted by my environment in a positive way, in that sense. 

That's the other good thing about my neighborhood. It would be classified by environmental justice standards as an "underprivileged community"... but we have so much diversity. And we aren't underprivileged, the housing is inexpensive but the roads are safe and there's always children out and a lot of know each other, we wave to each other. 

It's funny that parents go out of their way to shield their children from other cultures. They don't realize what a terrible detriment they are doing their own kids.


----------



## AdInfinitum

ElliCat said:


> @NobleRaven Love everything you wrote about Fi.


I just wanted to clear the spurred water around the idea of socialization and Fi. I personally adore helping people, talking to them, seeing them grow with every word or imaginative soft expression but I want them to be completely unique, solid in values and hopeful towards their improvement as souls. I focus most of my attention on the outside as I see so much potential within people to escape their own closeness. And you see, it is all because _I _ want it truly and because _I feel_ it is the right thing to do. Glad it helped a bit.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> I know about slavery, and I used to find that so incredible - that we only had so many slaves in America, when no one talked about the horrors that the Spanish did to their slaves. The things that went down in Brazil. And, slaves weren't treated that badly. I have ancestors who were terribly abused by the U.S., but then I also have ancestors who are significant figures in the Cindederate effort. I didn't justify slavery to myself - nothing can make that right, obviously - but I have justified the South. They were just making a living, right? That was just a culture they had? And, of course, not all of them owned slaves. my specific ancestor in this history books did not own slaves. Though of course they never talk about that.
> 
> But... I've come to realize that... You still don't say what I just said. I feel uncomfortable sharing it even now in the attempt to make a point. Yes, slaves were treated worse in South and Central America. No, there weren't as many as there were in other countries. But you know what? They still suffered. I defend my ancestors, but the ancestors I didn't know about literally tried to annihilate the ancestors of other people I know. And bringing up statistics about how the U.S. and its slavery wasn't that bad does a lot to undermine the suffering endured by slavery, one of the biggest stains of injustice that Americans (myself included) like to pretend isn't there. Yes, other slaves had it worse in other countries. But in my country, slaves still went through hell. We studied that in school, but I think any firsthand account of slavery would give you the same information.
> 
> I used to think also, that... We need to give the U.S. a break. I've told Oval before, at least two times, a certain non-European country personally terrorized my grandfather. They tortured him. Tried to wipe out his entire family. His childhood was shaped by their destruction. But... we don't hear about that. We don't hear about how Africans were selling Africans, and that's how the slave trade started. We don't hear about the countless injustices done by other countries, all the accounts of slavery in nearly every ancient culture.
> 
> But... It's different, I think. One, we have to focus on our own issues before we can condemn others. Two, it's different because... America prides itself on being the land of the free. And to my knowledge, it always has. That's what our Founding Fathers thought it did. But they had slaves. They were _possessing_ an entire population of people, an entire race. And that mindset continues today, as people of different minorities suffer and suffer but America turns a blind eye... because we're already perfect. We have that mindset. I once had that mindset. I think it's important that we not only learn about slavery and the civil rights movement, but that we also recognize that America has to _continually_ be a spring for actual freedom and true justice. Perfection of virtue will never be achieved, and for that reason I think it is crucial that we learn how to keep striving for it in real time.


I agree in most part. But, you know, in school all you hear about is how awful white people are, how our ancestors held slaves (even though, you know, a good proportion of white people's ancestors in America were being persecuted and starving and trying to flee their country at the time of slavery). And...I understand, and it's good to remember these things...once in a while. But the fact that some white people a long time ago bought into a tragic cultural institution, and that some of them were cruel seems maybe like something we don't all have to feel guilty about collectively all the time. I think we should move on.


----------



## orbit

I don't understand. I live in a university town and there are only a handful of black kids around... They're all really popular. A family of them are super smart and motivated (like they make iPhone apps at age sixteen and win state math competitions), another kid is a track star, and another one is just funny? I don't know much about them. 

There are a _ton_ of Asians around. Like some of my classes are made mostly of Asians


----------



## orbit

NobleRaven said:


> I just wanted to clear the spurred water around the idea of socialization and Fi. I personally adore helping people, talking to them, seeing them grow with every word or imaginative soft expression but I want them to be completely unique, solid in values and hopeful towards their improvement as souls. I focus most of my attention on the outside as I see so much potential within people to escape their own closeness. And you see, it is all because _I _ want it truly and because _I feel_ it is the right thing to do. Glad it helped a bit.


Fi users really put an emphasis on the I in Fi. But only on the F when we're angry. 

shameless corny wordplay.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> I agree in most part. But, you know, in school all you hear about is how awful white people are, how our ancestors held slaves (even though, you know, a good proportion of white people's ancestors in America were being persecuted and starving and trying to flee their country at the time of slavery). And...I understand, and it's good to remember these things...once in a while. But the fact that some white people a long time ago bought into a tragic cultural institution, and that some of them were cruel seems maybe like something we don't all have to feel guilty about collectively all the time. I think we should move on.


I really used to think the same. Like I thought... exactly that. 

But now I have come to... open my eyes. There is still racism. People still suffer from it... terribly. People are killed for it. Children are killed for it. And while "moving on" is a benign term, it is a hopeful one... in this case due to its context it is also a harmful term. Moving on when there are still problems that are _killing people_ is a type of ignorance that... well... gets people killed. Hurt. And many other bad things that stem from it. 

I mean... I don't know, I feel bad saying these things. I do know where you're coming from. I felt the same way, trust me. I don't say these things to be rude. I don't think ignorance should be such an accusatory description, as I think we are all ignorant of most things, and different people have ignorance and complex understandings of different matters. But... I think that those who do not recognize at this time (ie. over half the people in my house right now) that racism is still alive and hurting people lack awareness of the wider suffering. 

It's something that will come in time. I don't expect you to catch onto it overnight, or with my post, and I'm sure you're not a racist person who is having a malignant impact with your thoughts. Of course you aren't. But it's just a sentiment that... I once had, strongly, but which my growing understanding of the world brought me to shift entirely.


----------



## AdInfinitum

OvalCat said:


> Fi users really put an emphasis on the I in Fi. But only on the F when we're angry.
> 
> shameless corny wordplay.


I am proud, that actually overflowed my own puns. Marsh on the field of bad jokes, we are all there!


----------



## orbit

Do you think we have a universal responsibility to society or only responsibility to our self actualization?


----------



## Persephone Soul

@hoopla signed.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> I really used to think the same. Like I thought... exactly that.
> 
> But now I have come to... open my eyes. There is still racism. People still suffer from it... terribly. People are killed for it. Children are killed for it. And while "moving on" is a benign term, it is a hopeful one... in this case due to its context it is also a harmful term. Moving on when there are still problems that are _killing people_ is a type of ignorance that... well... gets people killed. Hurt. And many other bad things that stem from it.
> 
> I mean... I don't know, I feel bad saying these things. I do know where you're coming from. I felt the same way, trust me. I don't say these things to be rude. I don't think ignorance should be such an accusatory description, as I think we are all ignorant of most things, and different people have ignorance and complex understandings of different matters. But... I think that those who do not recognize at this time (ie. over half the people in my house right now) that racism is still alive and hurting people lack awareness of the wider suffering.
> 
> It's something that will come in time. I don't expect you to catch onto it overnight, or with my post, and I'm sure you're not a racist person who is having a malignant impact with your thoughts. Of course you aren't. But it's just a sentiment that... I once had, strongly, but which my growing understanding of the world brought me to shift entirely.


But how does it help to be rehashing the past and just having some sort of national pissing contest to see who's the most sensitive to minorities? To me it feels like it does the opposite of helping. Personally, every time I see a thing talking about white privilege or reminding us about slavery (who forgot?) I feel less sympathetic to the suffering of people...because I never see actual examples of the suffering, what I see are stupid Buzzfeed articles talking about 'microaggressions' like "Your hair's really cool" "Where are you from" "Do you speak Chinese" and if there actually is racism going on somewhere, it's getting hidden under piles and piles of absolute manure and...it's like the boy who cried wolf. 

IMO the way to end racism would be to stop talking about race. Stop making it an issue. And...the other thing is, if there _is_ racism going on in the US it's not where I am and it's not with people I know and it's not my issue. I don't need to sit here thinking about how awful it is because I've already acknowledged it's awful and that's good enough for me. When I see people talking about racism (or sexism, or whateverism) I really just see people tilting at windmills, but really ineffectively, because all they're saying is "This is really bad! This has to end!".

Honestly it's no surprise to me that in certain areas there is still racism. It'll go away in a generation or so though. Go away faster and better if people leave it alone. What's more alarming is how black people, for instance, are on the large part living with the legacy of slavery, that black culture is on the whole a culture of poverty and fragmentation. But that's not anyone's fault really -- it's history being a b*tch. And the way to solve it isn't through talking about racism. That actually clouds the issue in my opinion. I don't know how to solve that problem. Time will help but it'll be slow. I think it will have to be a movement that comes from within the black community though. But it will be an uphill battle.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I have come to the conclusion that George RR Martin is an ENFJ. See GOT thread if interested. I am quite surprised. But who knows more about a game of thrones than ENFJ? Who knows a broader range of feelings?


----------



## Dangerose

Paradise Rain said:


> @hoopla signed.


Can you link me? I wasn't sure about signing at first because I just wasn't sure what the overall thing was but when I read hoopla's rant I kinda got what the point was but I had lost it again


----------



## Darkbloom

fair phantom said:


> Perhaps his 2 video isn't applicable for all variants?


I think SX instinct can give a 2 a bit more of that unapologetic 8-ishness, and paired with being social last it results in a bit of a "Fuck rules" mentality when it comes to helping,at least I think it's like that for me. I'm very family oriented(How many times have I mentioned my dad and mom here? XD) and also very...hm, men oriented and I think those don't require huge amount of typical helpfulness? Like, when you have bunch of friends and want all of them to love and need you, you have to be nice, you have to be the one with the best ideas, the best gifts, throwing the best parties, maybe you have to offer status to people, you have to be there for EVERYONE because if you aren't then someone _will_ replace you and you will be left unimportant and unloved.
I think with parents and men it's more illusion based, parents think their child is an angel no matter what, men fall in love. With friends it's easy to make a mistake, especially large group of friends, especially when some of them can't wait for you to make a mistake. 
Does that make sense?


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> I agree in most part. But, you know, in school all you hear about is how awful white people are, how our ancestors held slaves (even though, you know, a good proportion of white people's ancestors in America were being persecuted and starving and trying to flee their country at the time of slavery). And...I understand, and it's good to remember these things...once in a while. But the fact that some white people a long time ago bought into a tragic cultural institution, and that some of them were cruel seems maybe like something we don't all have to feel guilty about collectively all the time. I think we should move on.


Well I wasn't in your classroom, but is this really the case? It's the 4th of July of today and we are largely celebrating the achievements of white men. Yes we learned about slavery in class but I also learned a lot about the achievements of great white people (mostly men).

It isn't the past we need to feel guilty over. From what I understand they don't even want our guilt—find it obnoxious because guilt does nothing. It's the ways in which racism continues today that need to be addressed.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Well I wasn't in your classroom, but is this really the case? It's the 4th of July of today and we are largely celebrating the achievements of white men. Yes we learned about slavery in class but I also learned a lot about the achievements of great white people (mostly men).
> 
> It isn't the past we need to feel guilty over. From what I understand they don't even want our guilt—find it obnoxious because guilt does nothing. It's the ways in which racism continues today that need to be addressed.


Again, I don't massively disagree but...
I don't think it's the achievements of 'white men' we are celebrating, but some specific people who were white men (i.e. Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams). Because that's the achievement that literally started our country. Unfortunately black people at that time did not have an opportunity to be achieving that much. The ones who did, in our history, we do celebrate (Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, etc. It kinda bothers me when there's this 'a group of white men' as though that's the point of them when it obviously isn't.

I just feel like America is the country most ashamed of her history (outside of Germany). We have good reason to be in many ways but so do most countries, to be honest, and I feel like it's detrimental to our development, and I'm just kinda tired of hearing the same lesson when I think everyone knows it by heart. :ball:


----------



## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> I think SX instinct can give a 2 a bit more of that unapologetic 8-ishness, and paired with being social last it results in a bit of a "Fuck rules" mentality when it comes to helping,at least I think it's like that for me. I'm very family oriented(How many times have I mentioned my dad and mom here? XD) and also very...hm, men oriented and I think those don't require huge amount of typical helpfulness? Like, when you have bunch of friends and want all of them to love and need you, you have to be nice, you have to be the one with the best ideas, the best gifts, throwing the best parties, maybe you have to offer status to people, you have to be there for EVERYONE because if you aren't then someone _will_ replace you and you will be left unimportant and unloved.
> I think with parents and men it's more illusion based, parents think their child is an angel no matter what, men fall in love. With friends it's easy to make a mistake, especially large group of friends, especially when some of them can't wait for you to make a mistake.
> Does that make sense?


This actually makes a lot of sense. In general and for me. Maybe I'm back to being a 2 then.
(though I'm still open to that being challenged)


----------



## fair phantom

Sidenote: I hate how history classes, at least in gradeschool, tend to promote the narrative that history is determined by a few GREAT men and women, as if economics, societal forces, and the lives of "the masses" are of no importance.

They don't do this explicitly, of course, but how much of your history class lessons went "Mr. X did Y and it was totally awesome/terrible?"


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> Sidenote: I hate how history classes, at least in gradeschool, tend to promote the narrative that history is determined by a few GREAT men and women, as if economics, societal forces, and the lives of "the masses" are of no importance.
> 
> They don't do this explicitly, of course, but how much of your history class lessons went "Mr. X did Y and it was totally awesome/terrible?"


My textbook was all about revolutions and MAIN.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Princess Langwidere said:


> Can you link me? I wasn't sure about signing at first because I just wasn't sure what the overall thing was but when I read hoopla's rant I kinda got what the point was but I had lost it again


Its on my FB wall


----------



## Future2Future

hoopla said:


> The book recommends chlorine dioxide to be ingested orally and anally via an enema to rid individuals of "autistic parasites" as well as bathing in chlorine dioxide.
> 
> More information on the chemical being touted:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement
> 
> The website that promotes this ebook (CDAutism.org) claims that because CD is approved in the USA by the EPA as a water disinfectant as well as a disinfectant for vegetables, hospital surfaces, ect. that this is safe for individuals to digest. You might as well say that it's safe to digest ammonia because it's an approved cleaning agent.
> 
> Why do things like this exist in the world. It's disgusting.
> 
> Happy fourth everyone (ironic intention)!


OMG !!! This is soooo outrageous and insane that I admit having chuckled a bit...

I'd sign your petition a thousand times if it were possible... :wink:




hoopla said:


> Fe rant:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel so alone. Really really alone. I'm not the only person in the world with an autistic family member, no. I still feel so lonely. Honestly I really want a lot of hugs and support and attention and to be pitied. I am a big martyrdom today. That's disgusting and nasty of me but I just want to be a big huge baby with people holding my hand and ranting about the big bads in this world. Spoil me.
> 
> There is so much I could say about this, particularly the history of my sister's development but I'll refrain. The bottom line is my mother kicked me out of her house when I mentioned that MMS is classified as a bleaching agent and the FDA issued a safety warning. "BULLSHIT. YOU CAN GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY HOUSE! NOW!" Why did you invite me over then. "YOU BETTER NOT USE THIS FUCKING SHIT ON MY SISTER!" I hollered as I felt like breaking something whilst slamming the door behind me.
> 
> My mom recommended I use this MMS cream she purchased and I brushed it off as alternative medicine hooey. Oh it's more than hooey. It's dangerous as hell. Since it's concentrated in a cream and my mom is likely inconsistent, mom hasn't noticed any detrimental side affects. Well the oral liquid has killed children. My mom is ignorant enough to believe any side effects like vomiting are a detox of mercury. I don't even know what treatments she plans to conduct. I've designed a short and sweet speech to use later, and I'm hoping she won't cut me off like always. I need to devise ways to keep my sister safe (and it's not the police because MMS is not illegal to sell/use in the US).
> 
> My sister is in a very unique situation. My mother's ex moved across the state... it was court approved... when she was 4. He's remarried. She comes over here every summer, but my mother is moving back this year. I'm going to call her family and warn them. Unfortunately the step mom is huge into alternative medicine (my sis eats GFCF (the celiac test came out negative btw) and is taking b12 shots and magnesium), but maybe she'll keep my sister safe. Maybe she has more sense.
> 
> Children in the US are being subjected to this. I know children who cannot defend themselves are getting enemas stuck up their asses. That's equivlant to an anal probe. Could you imagine someone doing that against your will?
> 
> When I was a preteen my friends would ask if my sister was slow or retarded. She's always treated like some big freak or space alien. I understand her family wants the best for her. She is also a pain to handle... some of it is a bit deeper than her autism if you ask me, but I digress. I too would like for her to be able to order at a restaurant without saying "um... um... um... um... um..." and having to be prompted to answer when the waitress enters our table. I want her to be independent if she can. I want her to be happy!
> 
> If she always flaps her hands and speaks in a balky voice that is ok as long as she is happen. I don't feel a strong bond or connect with her, and I feel very guilty about it. But as long as she is happy, that's fine. My mother sobs about how she should have never had her. She regrets that child. Honestly what she wants is a normal child because she horrifies her just for being a weirdo... it is deeper than wanting her as well adjusted as possible. Yeah... she embarrasses me in public. I'll be honest. But if she is happy and copes in her own way, that's all we need. She has sobbed about how she hates who and what she is. To my mother, more points for a cure! To me.... more points towards treating her to love herself. My sister is also only 12... give her time. She might learn how to cope in her own unique way.
> 
> I mean, my mom will harm my sister's health out of ignorance and call me stupid just to get what she wants. It's hard and isolating and I want to break down. I ate earlier and now I'm nauseated. She's not loved. My mom doesn't want a happy child. She wants a normal one. It's horrible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to talk today. I might go do something for the fourth just because I need to distract myself. I just feel very alone so I apologize for being whiny (I'm not getting deep into this with people irl to die down drama despite sharing the link w/ friends and on fb).
> 
> Thanks to everyone who signed.
> 
> I am semi nauseated. I knew eating would not help.
> 
> that's riddled with spelling errors but w/e.


Your mum sounds totally out of whack... Try making her understand that she's doing *this* to her child.
If she doesn't want to acknowledge and stop her bullshit right off, then she'd better go to a psychiatrist. It probably won't be as nice, though.
I hope everything will get sorted out for all of you. Here's a virtual hug : *hug*... Best of luck to you and your sister! :friendly_wink:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Sidenote: I hate how history classes, at least in gradeschool, tend to promote the narrative that history is determined by a few GREAT men and women, as if economics, societal forces, and the lives of "the masses" are of no importance.
> 
> They don't do this explicitly, of course, but how much of your history class lessons went "Mr. X did Y and it was totally awesome/terrible?"


This is true, but it's also kinda difficult to learn 'societal forces'.
I think the ideal history education format would go like:
Kindergarten - 5th grade: learn classic 'history', the legends of history almost, the big names and dates, events. They should know what happened in 1066 AD and 476 AD and 1776 AD, they should know Alexander the Great and Catherine the Great and all the great people. That'll give them a reliable historical map, give them context and such. Then in middle and high school, they should start learning about 'what was really going on', about populist movements and enclosure movements and so on and so forth, all of that...along, of course, with how historical figures played into it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

OvalCat said:


> Do you think we have a universal responsibility to society or only responsibility to our self actualization?


I think that helping society and becoming self-actualized are two side of the same leaf. I think they come with each other. 

Then again I am Fe and SO, so... I don't know if everyone sees things in this light.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Again, I don't massively disagree but...
> I don't think it's the achievements of 'white men' we are celebrating, but some specific people who were white men (i.e. Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams). Because that's the achievement that literally started our country. Unfortunately black people at that time did not have an opportunity to be achieving that much. The ones who did, in our history, we do celebrate (Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, etc. It kinda bothers me when there's this 'a group of white men' as though that's the point of them when it obviously isn't.
> 
> I just feel like America is the country most ashamed of her history (outside of Germany). We have good reason to be in many ways but so do most countries, to be honest, and I feel like it's detrimental to our development, and I'm just kinda tired of hearing the same lesson when I think everyone knows it by heart. :ball:


I didn't mean it is we were celebrating white men as in: It's White Men Day, or that they don't deserve to be recognized, nevertheless it is still about learning the heroic actions of white people, therefore history classes aren't all about how white people are bad. 

If everyone knew it by heart there wouldn't be confederate flags flying, there wouldn't be black churches being burned (three since charleston have been ruled arson), black people (and latino people) would not be facing disproportionate amount of arrests and jail time for nonviolent offenses (keep in mind that a felony means you won't be allowed to vote again), there wouldn't be unarmed black youths being killed by police officers....

(we may want to wind up this conversation soon and turn to more cheerful topics)


----------



## fair phantom

Pressed Flowers said:


> I think that helping society and becoming self-actualized are two side of the same leaf. I think they come with each other.
> 
> Then again I am Fe and SO, so... I don't know if everyone sees things in this light.


This Fi and So person agrees, but again...SO. Perhaps because Fi my focus is on those who are marginalized by society and i prefer to be an independent agent.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Fi and So agrees, but again...SO. Perhaps because Fi my focus is on those who are marginalized by society and i prefer to be an independent agent.


Maybe it's just SO, then? I imagine that @just for the spark for example would feel much the same way. 

I really get SO and Fe quite confused.


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> I didn't mean it is we were celebrating white men as in: It's White Men Day, or that they don't deserve to be recognized, nevertheless it is still about learning the heroic actions of white people, therefore history classes aren't all about how white people are bad.
> 
> If everyone knew it by heart there wouldn't be confederate flags flying, there wouldn't be black churches being burned (three since charleston have been ruled arson), black people (and latino people) would not be facing disproportionate amount of arrests and jail time for nonviolent offenses (keep in mind that a felony means you won't be allowed to vote again), there wouldn't be unarmed black youths being killed by police officers....
> 
> (we may want to wind up this conversation soon and turn to more cheerful topics)


Fair enough)
(I have to go to work soon anyway and I honestly donát have strong feelings about the issue nor a good amount of knowledge about racism in America)


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> I think that helping society and becoming self-actualized are two side of the same leaf. I think they come with each other.
> 
> Then again I am Fe and SO, so... I don't know if everyone sees things in this light.


I kinda agree but I still think society should be the number 1 priority
I always think "You have to love yourself before you love others" is dumb.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> This is true, but it's also kinda difficult to learn 'societal forces'.
> I think the ideal history education format would go like:
> Kindergarten - 5th grade: learn classic 'history', the legends of history almost, the big names and dates, events. They should know what happened in 1066 AD and 476 AD and 1776 AD, they should know Alexander the Great and Catherine the Great and all the great people. That'll give them a reliable historical map, give them context and such. Then in middle and high school, they should start learning about 'what was really going on', about populist movements and enclosure movements and so on and so forth, all of that...along, of course, with how historical figures played into it.


I don't think it is that hard to learn about "societal forces". But perhaps my term is confusing. What I mean are things like: romanticism, humanism, industrialization, globalization, poverty, medicinal knowledge, technology.

That said much of that is probably left for middle school and beyond. I basically agree with your program, but I would incorporate historical fiction (emphasizing that it is fiction) that gives kids an insight into the everyday life of particular periods, like the American Girl books.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Sidenote: I hate how history classes, at least in gradeschool, tend to promote the narrative that history is determined by a few GREAT men and women, as if economics, societal forces, and the lives of "the masses" are of no importance.
> 
> They don't do this explicitly, of course, but how much of your history class lessons went "Mr. X did Y and it was totally awesome/terrible?"


I love learning about everyday life. Peasants are my favorite subject. I just love peasants. Because... I would have been a 
Wasn't, you know? We like to imagine that we would be princes and princesses and kings and queens... but really, there's a slim chance that would happen. I prefer to know how Actual Me given my current circumstances would be out there. And I mean, I guess maybe with my dad's current job and given that he's an ESTP maybe he would be an artisan or something? But... still, lower classes. 

It's hard to explain, but it means so much to me when we learn about the lives of ~average~ people in history.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> I kinda agree but I still think society should be the number 1 priority
> I always think "You have to love yourself before you love others" is dumb.


YES. I HATE that saying. I was perfectly capable of loving others when I was severely depressed and full of self loathing. ^^;;;


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> I kinda agree but I still think society should be the number 1 priority
> I always think "You have to love yourself before you love others" is dumb.


My dad told me that when I was 16. You can't love others when you're having trouble loving yourself. 

It's simply not true for me. When I love others, I am essentially loving myself. Bringing others up brings me up. When I comfort someone, it does more for me than when I comfort myself. 

I think that brings self-actualization, at least for me. My ideal self is the someone who is helpi others, who is selfless, who exists for others. I don't think any of these I go defy the requirements of self-actualization (given that in being selfless someone doesn't actually dip into _self-deprecation_, which I am admittedly prone to but which I understand I will have to do away with in order to blossom into the person I want to become).


----------



## fair phantom

OvalCat said:


> My textbook was all about revolutions and MAIN.


I love studying revolutions. What is "MAIN"?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

We didn't learn much history in elementary school for me. In 5th grade we cut it out entirely (because we weren't tested on it by the state) until a week at the end of the year.


----------



## fair phantom

Pressed Flowers said:


> We didn't learn much history in elementary school for me. In 5th grade we cut it out entirely (because we weren't tested on it by the state) until a week at the end of the year.


I might cry.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

FearAndTrembling said:


> I have come to the conclusion that George RR Martin is an ENFJ. See GOT thread if interested. I am quite surprised. But who knows more about a game of thrones than ENFJ? Who knows a broader range of feelings?


See, I told you guys this was my soul series.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> I love studying revolutions. What is "MAIN"?


Militarism
Alliances
Imperialism 
Nationalism

Causes for WWI


----------



## orbit

I'm confused about what my role in society is. I want to be an educator and that's a positive thing but my motivation is purely selfish for it I think. I feel like I'm living for the sake of living and somehow I don't feel the inherit need to help people. 

Hm. Then again I do say I hate people but I do quite like them when I meet them and I am affectionate towards them... (Nobody believes it when I say I'll get them something. My Stat class didn't believe I would get them cupcakes on a random Tuesday) Maybe I do feel the need but I just don't recognize it like I don't recognize 60% of the forces in my life. 

Whatever I'm sixteen and uncapable of doing anything in the first place. I have time to think.


----------



## fair phantom

OvalCat said:


> Militarism
> Alliances
> Imperialism
> Nationalism
> 
> Causes for WWI


Ahhh oh the days of using acronyms to learn things. 



OvalCat said:


> I'm confused about what my role in society is. I want to be an educator and that's a positive thing but my motivation is purely selfish for it I think. I feel like I'm living for the sake of living and somehow I don't feel the inherit need to help people.
> 
> Hm. Then again I do say I hate people but I do quite like them when I meet them and I am affectionate towards them... (Nobody believes it when I say I'll get them something. My Stat class didn't believe I would get them cupcakes on a random Tuesday) Maybe I do feel the need but I just don't recognize it like I don't recognize 60% of the forces in my life.
> 
> Whatever I'm sixteen and uncapable of doing anything in the first place. I have time to think.


Yeah you are 16. Be 16. Save the existential angst for when you have to declare your major. And then your 20s. :winetime:


----------



## fair phantom

Pressed Flowers said:


> See, I told you guys this was my soul series.


Sorry, not convinced. But that's okay, it can still be your soul series.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> Sorry, not convinced. But that's okay, it can still be your soul series.


Yeah, I'm honestly not sure what to think of him as ENFJ either. He still seems to have no Fe to me, forget about Fe dominance. While I personally love exploring the feelings and plot lines of others, as Martin does, I think other types could do the same if they put their minds to it.


----------



## orbit

fair phantom said:


> Ahhh oh the days of using acronyms to learn things.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah you are 16. Be 16. Save the existential angst for when you have to declare your major. And then your 20s. :winetime:


THEY LITERALLY SHOVED THE ACRONYM DOWN OUR THROAT. Explain MAIN. What does A in MAIN stand for? The causes of the war were what (hint: four letter acronym...)

Shh... I am not angsty. My brain can be so irrational. I.e. I was tired yesterday, it meant that I was going to be tired all my life. Then this morning I was like oh no, I am going to be stressed out a lot in the future because of school D8 but I forget it's totally going to worth it. 

I do not get my brother. He's going to be a junior and he doesn't seem stressed out at all. Like. I never see him worry about exams and he lives at home. I wish I had his chill attitude about success. He knows he's going to be a chemist and he wants to be a professor (I feel the same way). 
(Haha my mom tortured him and he had to hide in the bathroom for hours because of his Bs in highschool but he still got into the dream honors college through gateway. Which relieves me and scares me at the same time because my brother always had infinitely much better timing than I do but I know I can work as hard as he did or even more so because he's chill and I'm not).


----------



## orbit

@Pressed Flowers, you have an admirable avatar. Represents your personality perfectly


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Yeah, I'm honestly not sure what to think of him as ENFJ either. He still seems to have no Fe to me, forget about Fe dominance. While I personally love exploring the feelings and plot lines of others, as Martin does, I think other types could do the same if they put their minds to it.


Yeah... him as ENFJ just doesn't compute. He has a distinctive Ne air to his stories, and, as you said, he doesn't have much Fe, at all. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Yeah... him as ENFJ just doesn't compute. He has a distinctive Ne air to his stories, and, as you said, he doesn't have much Fe, at all. :happy:


The one thing that makes me wonder about the Fe is... Fe-dominants can be cold, I think? 

I think of 






I remember @angelcat said he seemed ENFJ, from an interview or two she saw. From his book, I can believe it. That book isn't just my soul, it's the soul of the world. It's gorgeous. His mind is gorgeous. But from the videos, he seems... almost detached to me. 

I mean, I am almost _always_ smiling in discussion. Even when I am debating, I am smiling. 

It goes off when I discuss concepts or logic. Accessing that Ni and Ti. I go serious. It's almost creepy, chilling. I have to be careful not to go too far into this, lest I terrify my friends with my sudden change in self. I suppose that could be what he's doing here, Coelho... and perhaps what Martin does? That's the only way I could explain it if he is an Fe dominant.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> The one thing that makes me wonder about the Fe is... Fe-dominants can be cold, I think?
> 
> I think of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember @angelcat said he seemed ENFJ, from an interview or two she saw. From his book, I can believe it. That book isn't just my soul, it's the soul of the world. It's gorgeous. His mind is gorgeous. But from the videos, he seems... almost detached to me.
> 
> I mean, I am almost _always_ smiling in discussion. Even when I am debating, I am smiling.
> 
> It goes off when I discuss concepts or logic. Accessing that Ni and Ti. I go serious. It's almost creepy, chilling. I have to be careful not to go too far into this, lest I terrify my friends with my sudden change in self. I suppose that could be what he's doing here, Coelho... and perhaps what Martin does? That's the only way I could explain it if he is an Fe dominant.


Oh no, it's not coldness, per say, but he doesn't really seem to have a defined end for his story, and in the one interview I saw of him, he didn't really seem... Fe? And as for Fe types being cold, I personally haven't seen too much of it, as the main example of dark Fe types is Yuno, possessive and yandere to a fault, so I can't say that they're cold, per say. I'm still going to go with ENTP for him, though.


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Oh no, it's not coldness, per say, but he doesn't really seem to have a defined end for his story, and in the one interview I saw of him, he didn't really seem... Fe? And as for Fe types being cold, I personally haven't seen too much of it, as the main example of dark Fe types is Yuno, possessive and yandere to a fault, so I can't say that they're cold, per say. I'm still going to go with ENTP for him, though.


Didn't @FearAndTrembling say he was cold?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Mmkay, look at this. 






I can see Fe? 

He's playing up to how he is in society - he's an older man, he's not a talk show host - but... I don't see anything particularly _not_ Fe. 

He does remind me of my INTP uncle, but that could just be facial features or something. 

Really, I want to hold out on deciding his type until he publishes the last book. I want to see if there was an actual purpose with all of this, or if he was just throwing around ideas. I think that will tell us a lot about his type.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

OvalCat said:


> Didn't @FearAndTrembling say he was cold?


Ni is cold. I was cold to my mother last night. Growing up, I was so "cold" to my teachers when discussing with them that I, a smaller than average 7 year old girl, intimidated them. I do the same thing with my professors even now. I think it's harder for an ESFJ to be cold, but I think NFJs are prone to coming across as "cold" in some respects.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

OvalCat said:


> @Pressed Flowers, you have an admirable avatar. Represents your personality perfectly


It's not like anyone dared me to wear it or anything.


----------



## Barakiel

OvalCat said:


> Didn't @FearAndTrembling say he was cold?


After reading his posts in the Game of Thrones thread, his argument is that Martin is adept at trolling, and wants to outsmart everyone, so he's got Fe-Ni. Man, I don't really like people who write pages upon pages, makes it hard to get to the central point. But that besides the point, I simply don't think he has Ni in any way whatsoever, nothing seems like it in his story.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Pressed Flowers said:


> Mmkay, look at this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see Fe?
> 
> He's playing up to how he is in society - he's an older man, he's not a talk show host - but... I don't see anything particularly _not_ Fe.
> 
> He does remind me of my INTP uncle, but that could just be facial features or something.
> 
> Really, I want to hold out on deciding his type until he publishes the last book. I want to see if there was an actual purpose with all of this, or if he was just throwing around ideas. I think that will tell us a lot about his type.


The guy is a Fe dom beta from Jersey. You aren't gonna see many that feely. He is extremely pleasant actually given the context. He is a typical Fe-Ni nerd. Seinfeld is the same, though he is soft. lol. Comic books. All that shit. They are big kids. They love people and observing them.


----------



## Dangerose

Paradise Rain said:


> I do this too. You couldn't see in the videos because I was doing it low. But I have to use my hands or fidget with things. I was playing with this hair bow thing the whole video long lol. I also can not make eye contact.
> 
> i think these things are pretty common though. My mom was told growing up it was because she/we are German. I think that's silly lol


lol once I was swinging my purse the way one does not excessively just the normal amount and a random German lady on the street told me to stop.


----------



## Dangerose

See sometimes I just go 'how am I not Ni my whole world is symbolism'
Yet sometimes I feel really really Si
What if I just have "Pi"


----------



## Dangerose

See sometimes I just go 'how am I not Ni my whole world is symbolism'
Yet sometimes I feel really really Si
What if I just have "Pi"


----------



## FearAndTrembling

This actually brings up a point about Ni. Ni is not about symbolism itself. They are symbols. lol. Jung said that. I really hate to bring up Bruce Lee again, but people are like where are his Ni and symbols? And some guy rightly responded, "He IS a symbol." Which he is. 

Jung himself said that it is the lower Ni types who look for symbols. That is why I think Jung may be ISTP. He is Ni-Fe seeking. He was also superstitious and rubbed stones, been weird. That isn't Ni. We are normal people. It is SP types who are fancy, and symbol (Ni seeking). Martin is not symbol seeking. He is a normal guy. Like me. And Lee. We aren't into that weird shit. 

Ni needs the tangible to feel tangible. Or else we float. Se needs the tangible to feel intangible. And that is Jung.


----------



## orbit

FearAndTrembling said:


> This actually brings up a point about Ni. Ni is not about symbolism itself. They are symbols. lol. Jung said that. I really hate to bring up Bruce Lee again, but people are like where are his Ni and symbols? And some guy rightly responded, "He IS a symbol." Which he is.
> 
> Jung himself said that it is the lower Ni types who look for symbols. That is why I think Jung may be ISTP. He is Ni-Fe seeking. He was also superstitious and rubbed stones, been weird. That isn't Ni. We are normal people. It is SP types who are fancy, and symbol (Ni seeking). Martin is not symbol seeking. He is a normal guy. Like me. And Lee.
> 
> Ni needs the tangible to feel tangible. Or else we float. Se needs the tangible to feel intangible. And that is Jung.


 The paper crane in front of me represents my lost dreams, hence that's why it's crooked. It feels like a ghost in my hand. 

Spouting nonsense aside: I read somewhere that Fi wants to represent it's values... Basically be its own symbol for its beliefs. How would you notice the difference between that and Ni if they all want to be symbols? I'm probably misunderstanding something.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Pressed Flowers said:


> I can't wait for the day when people with autism aren't socially rejected for _being themselves_.


I agree. I also wish very high functioning individuals were viewed as different rather than disabled. Slowly this is becoming a reality, but some people still treat all autism as some huge problem. For some people, autism isn't really a problem, but a label to explain why you're different, and it's often a good thing.

My sister borders in-between aspie and HFA. I'd say she's more of a "classic" aspie, as even what is considered aspie has changed over time. She definitely has challenges that deserve solutions, but some of her behaviors, while still autistic, are absolutely fine; the only problems they cause are related to society.



Pressed Flowers said:


> Hand flapping is an example. Stims like that do no harm. If it helps her, she needs to be able to do that. And, more pressingly, society needs to adjust so it doesn't shun people for naturally existing.


Exactly. It's actually selfish of people to try and eradicate it. It borders on eugenics. This strategy is more harmful than the behavior itself. 



Pressed Flowers said:


> Hurtful stims obviously are problematic to the person - something that inflicts injury


In severe cases, I completely understand where the desire for a cure comes from. It can be mentally and finically exhausting for a family, and the child is often unhappy with additional health problems (epilepsy). However, a low functioning individual can still live a full and healthy life. I read an article about a mother who's child had to live in a home despite ABA therapy. He communicated effectively through nonverbal cues and visual cards. The mother had such a mature attitude! She decided that her child was happy and well adjusted, even with a handicap. It takes a lot to admit to the reality of a situation.

I know of several families who make their life work, even with severe autism. Though for some individuals... it's just not a good situation, so I hope more effective treatments can be found... especially for severe self injury. That can get serious, and there needs to be a focus on how to handle that, and a push for more research, because at this point, many parents are helpless whilst their child suffers. 



Pressed Flowers said:


> Sadly, society does crowd on those who are different, and in some ways your mother, and you, are right to want to help your sister with that.


This is a tough one. Sometimes... it's difficult for us. It's also difficult for her, because of the social problems it causes. How do we mainstream her into society without changing her personality? Sometimes my mother just wants her normal... and I've been guilty of it. She can act... fucking annoying sometimes, and I can see why kids would bully her.

Once when she was goofy I lectured her that she should consider changing unless she wants to face ridicule. That was the wrong thing to do. "No! Not this dreaded conversation!" ...She was chastised before. ): She ended up slamming the door and crying for 15 minutes. I should have told her "You know... some kids will make fun of you for acting like that... but they are jerks, and if anyone bullies you, tell a teacher, or kick 'em in the crotch." I hate when I make mistakes. I get where my mother comes from... as I've been there. It's hella hard sometimes, but we just have to work on teaching her to stand up for herself rather than teaching her to change. I realized that in retrospect.



Pressed Flowers said:


> I mean, with Tourette's I had friends who understood it and didn't mind the tics and saw me as me, but we still sought therapy to eradicate it because even though it was me, we needed to fit me into the real world so that it would t hurt me in how the universe works now. But... That feels different to me, because I chose to adapt voluntarily... not just because people were annoyed with me. It was my choice to adjust. Hopefully your sister can find a way to be socially appropriate while still staying comfortable in herself.


Exactly. It's voluntary for you. For a lot of autistic people, a switch is involuntary My sister doesn't want to change herself at all, and doesn't understand why others want her to be different. She carries so much shame for who she is. "I feel like I should feel bad for what I am!" That was so hard. Holy shit. 

For a long time I was extremely accepting and stood up for her... until I went through this "how can I make her different" phase because of the pain her behaviors caused me externally, especially within my family. Also... the social problems broke my heart. Now I realized every change she makes is involuntary, so I'm trying not to make her socially appropriate anymore, but to teach her how to tell the kids who react with spite or rejection to fuck off. It was so wrong for me to try and change her. I think she's right when she says that she shouldn't have to.

The only thing I still try to work on in terms of social appropriateness is her rudeness. Sometimes she can't help it and I try to remind her... other times she's totally milking it because she knows she can get away with it. For someone with social skills 5 years behind her peers, she is the master manipulator. So strange. Manipulation takes social skills. I think autistics are not as clueless as we believe... some aspies score well on those tests asking you to rate facial expressions. They themselves theorize that they can read cues... but their brain can't keep up with them in a social situation. That's something the experts should explore. 

The way I see it, every autistic knows how to communicate. We believe they are lagged or incapable because they way they communicate is eccentric.



Pressed Flowers said:


> And I think that standing up for others is always heroic, personally. Especially when it is something like this, where your sister needs someone to stand up for her or nobody else will. See it as you will, it is quite courageous of you.


Thanks. Sometimes it's so much easier to say nothing, so I'm not always a defender. ): Though I think the most important thing is not for me to defend her, but for her to learn how to defend herself, rather than attempting to change her... I need to let that go.

BEING A HUMAN IS HARD.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

OvalCat said:


> The paper crane in front of me represents my lost dreams, hence that's why it's crooked. It feels like a ghost in my hand.
> 
> Spouting nonsense aside: I read somewhere that Fi wants to represent it's values... Basically be its own symbol for its beliefs. How would you notice the difference between that and Ni if they all want to be symbols? I'm probably misunderstanding something.


The thing is, people think of Ni doms looking like these buddhas. Particularly NFJ. They are nothing like that. It is the SP types who are more hippy and have strange interests. All the NFJ I know are quite clean cut. And they aren't sages. Look at Obama. He is one of the guys. So am I, Martin, Seinfeld. 

People say that they saw ghosts and Ni doms have telepathy. That is SP stuff. 

It is people like Lady Gaga and Marilyn Manson who get obsessed with that stuff. It is amateur Ni basically. Marilyn Manson is a symbol sure. Guys like Martin are so immersed in it they don't see it that way. All their symbols are on the inside. Does Goethe have to paint his face?

CS Lewis. Most clean cut guy ever. Was an atheist until very late in life. He doesn't need other symbols. Ni doms are probably the least "mystical" type.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> The thing is, people think of Ni doms looking like these buddhas. Particularly NFJ. They are nothing like that. It is the SP types who are more hippy and have strange interests. All the NFJ I know are quite clean cut. And they aren't sages. Look at Obama. He is one of the guys. So am I, Martin, Seinfeld.
> 
> People say that they saw ghosts and Ni doms have telepathy. That is SP stuff.
> 
> It is people like Lady Gaga and Marilyn Manson who get obsessed with that stuff. It is amateur Ni basically. Marilyn Manson is a symbol sure. Guys like Martin are so immersed in it they don't see it that way. All their symbols are on the inside. Does Goethe have to paint his face?
> 
> CS Lewis. Most clean cut guy ever. Was an atheist until very late in life. He doesn't need other symbols. Ni doms are probably the least "mystical" type.


Looking through the socionics forum, I noticed a few people questioned whether you were Ni dom. How would you describe your relationship to symbols and Ni in general? This is genuine curiosity because there are many conceptions of Ni floating around.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

shinynotshiny said:


> Looking through the socionics forum, I noticed a few people questioned whether you were Ni dom. How would you describe your relationship to symbols and Ni in general? This is genuine curiosity because there are many conceptions of Ni floating around.


All I can tell you, is I know it when I see it. I said that some people only know Ni conceptually. They are very good at knowing it as an idea. But not an experience. 

What Ni basically is, is addressing background dynamics that nobody else is talking about. lol. That is exactly what Ni is. That is why nobody understands me. Because I am actually a Ni dom. lol. Everyone else is dealing in concrete systems, and abiding by them. That is the last thing a Ni dom does. They have their own worlds. Jung said a Ni dom was a "crank". I am a crank. Real Ni doms have understood me. They are far and few between, even on here.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@shinynotshiny And unfortunately, that's only *one* problem with empirical studies. I could list so many more. I think the biggest problems are correlation does not equal causation, the size and selection of a sample (you covered that with your point about university participants), another contributing answer/solution/problem is forgotten/undiscovered, and conflicts of interest. *Especially* conflicts of interest. I would say that is the biggest problem with empirical studies. Note that the problems I mentioned only scratch the surface. It's not that research is useless. It's absolutely useful... it just needs to be conjoined with critical thinking in order to remain that way.

...Unfortunately I sometimes I forget to think critically. I believe there is a lot of promise to evolutionary psychology but you are right that some of it may be confirmation bias based on stereotypes. Please link me the study about black women being less attractive or w/e it was. Memory doesn't serve.

@FearAndTrembling ENFJ's are people scientists? Perfect description. We should rewrite "The Givers" as "The Sociologists".

@Princess Langwidere It's so funny that people are bothered by repetitive behaviors when we all commit them. Stimming? Stereotypic movements? We are all autistic.

I need to stop it with the autism thing. It's totally irrelevant to the conversation. I just really enjoy discussing it. See... narrow, fixated interests. *WE ARE ALL AUTISTIC.*

I love neurospsychology. Autism? Tourettes? Prognosia? Oliver Sacks? Synesthesia (Does that count? It should, so I'm going to say yes, regardless of what professional psychologists believe. Psychology is flawed anyway)? I could talk about that shit all day. I'm surprised I don't contribute to the psychology subforum more often. You guys are too.

You are a big fat Pi. I would actually say that Si is very much about symbolism... in fact symbolism is the prime of Si imo, and when Ne is controlled, it's beautiful. When we haven't controlled Ne, it's all rigid standards and scare tactics.

Trembling makes a great point when he says Ni is not symbolism for the sake of symbolism... it *is* a symbol. He's also right that Ni is derived from Se, and Se is derived from Ni. My INFJ friend looks at the world and what it is... and then pulls so much meaning out of it. @Greyhart plants an Si seed... and then it grows into conceptual awesomeness. I think OOOH WHAT COULD IT BE!!!???!?!?! and then use Si to answer that. The inferior nags... the dominate answers. BDSM. 

@OvalCat Don't quit spewing nonsense. It's poetic. Does it feel like a ghost because lost dreams exist... yet are only know through force and energy due to the alternate world they've entered? We can reach to them in a different plane, but not in the current plane like we once could.


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> @_shinynotshiny_ And unfortunately, that's only *one* problem with empirical studies. I could list so many more. I think the biggest problems are correlation does not equal causation, the size and selection of a sample (you covered that with your point about university participants), another contributing answer/solution/problem is forgotten/undiscovered, and conflicts of interest. *Especially* conflicts of interest. I would say that is the biggest problem with empirical studies. Note that the problems I mentioned only scratch the surface. It's not that research is useless. It's absolutely useful... it just needs to be conjoined with critical thinking in order to remain that way.


I know, and if you want to get into research, specifically in psychology, you'll most likely be dealing with more correlational studies than anything else (unless you go into a more "science-y" branch of psychology).

@_FearAndTrembling_ I doubt most Ni doms at this point.

*[Edit]* I totally missed this: 



> ...Unfortunately I sometimes I forget to think critically. I believe there is a lot of promise to evolutionary psychology but you are right that some of it may be confirmation bias based on stereotypes. Please link me the study about black women being less attractive or w/e it was. Memory doesn't serve.


 @hoopla (so you won't miss the edit)

I don't remember if it was a study or some asshole evolutionary psychologist making a general argument, but... *goes off to search*... He has a wiki page lol:

Satoshi Kanazawa


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, to the 'being symbols' thing, on my recent typing thread I had this bit which Night Huntress said was Ni-ish. I think someone else said it was Si. I was left confused.



> Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty, that is all ye know on earth, all ye need to know
> That's all I need to know) When I read that quote it was like, "Ah! That's it!"
> It correlates, except that I don't use the term 'beauty' casually. Something can only beautiful if it is full of beauty, if it has a kernel of truth to it, if you are really thinking "This is God's handiwork", if your breath catches...
> 
> edit: The concept of beauty is very important to me but I don't have time to go into it deeply here. I mentioned the Phantom of the Opera in jest but in fact it was a very important story for me partly because of how deeply the Phantom valued Beauty, how deeply he believed in the Music of the Night. It's important to me. It's why I am so sad that I am not physically beautiful (besides the reasons of wanting men to fall in love with me), because I love beauty so and the fact that I cannot be part of the beauty of the earth saddens me deeply. I want to be able to give beauty as well as receive it...I want to be Beauty, to carry it in my heart and show it to others. Unfortunately for the moment I cannot do it with my appearance, but if I can create beautiful things or show others how to see Beauty (I literally pray for this: may others' eyes be opened to beauty), if I see the beauty in the outside world and in other people, thereby making them beautiful (if only to me) that is at least part of the overall picture. So my answers to these questions may be brief but it's not because I do not value beauty.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

@hoopla

I have been involved in this discussion before. I contribution "Maestros" for ENFJ in a suggestion thread. They loved it. I started at "conductors". Working on the music angle. Maestro is particularly funny because it is from a Seinfeld episode.


----------



## Barakiel

I can't say much for how I would treat someone with autism, as I've met very few of them. However, I can say that I was diagnosed with a mild case of Asperger's Syndrome, although I do debate the mild part of it. Regardless, @hoopla, don't undervalue your contribution to your sister's health, if it was merely how you state it, everyone would do it. Everyone needs something to lean on. :happy:


----------



## Vermillion

FearAndTrembling said:


> What Ni basically is, is addressing background dynamics that nobody else is talking about. lol. That is exactly what Ni is. That is why nobody understands me. Because I am actually a Ni dom. lol. Everyone else is dealing in concrete systems, and abiding by them. That is the last thing a Ni dom does. They have their own worlds. Jung said a Ni dom was a "crank". I am a crank. Real Ni doms have understood me. They are far and few between, even on here.


Solid argument if I ever heard one. Wow. Did you ever think it could go the other way round? That they "misunderstand" you because you're not an Ni dom and they are? Does that argument make sense? Nope. Neither does yours.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Princess Langwidere said:


> Ok, to the 'being symbols' thing, on my recent typing thread I had this bit which Night Huntress said was Ni-ish. I think someone else said it was Si. I was left confused.


Another thing is that people think that like SJ are stupid. Guys like Christopher Hitchens is probably an ESTJ. I think Richard Dawkins is too. Typed as INTJ and INTP. ESTJ are like, successful hard working people. Ni types look more like Martin. Jung said Newton was a sensor, Darwin too. Now everyone thinks they are INTx types.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Night Huntress said:


> Solid argument if I ever heard one. Wow. Did you ever think it could go the other way round? That they "misunderstand" you because you're not an Ni dom and they are? Does that argument make sense? Nope. Neither does yours.


Who else is discussing more abstract issues?

You just read my mind. I have been an outsider my whole life, and then I got on here and it is the same thing. I didn't want to be this way. lol. I fought this type. An SP insisted I was it. I tried to prove it wrong. You don't know my history. She said I was the biggest one she ever saw. And so have others. And that threatens people for some reason. 

What, am I the only Si user on here? Really? You joined this site to meet guys like me.

^^ see. Inferior Se.


----------



## Dangerose

FearAndTrembling said:


> Another thing is that people think that like SJ are stupid. Guys like Christopher Hitchens is probably an ESTJ. I think Richard Dawkins is too. Typed as INTJ and INTP. ESTJ are like, successful hard working people. Ni types look more like Martin. Jung said Newton was a sensor, Darwin too. Now everyone thinks they are INTx types.


I agree of course, I am no fan of the sensor/intuitive bias)
Not convinced that Martin's a Ni user, but I haven't actually read him so I can't comment. Everything I've heard about him sounds Ne to me though.


----------



## Vermillion

FearAndTrembling said:


> You just read my mind. I have been an outsider my whole life, and then I got on here and it is the same thing. I didn't want to be this way. lol. I fought this type. An SP insisted I was it. I tried to prove it wrong. You don't know my history. She said I was the biggest one she ever saw. And so have others. And that threatens people for some reason.
> 
> What, am I the only Si user on here? Really?


I like how you jumped so fast from assumption to assumption and neatly created a castle in the air...

No, your type doesn't _threaten_ anyone. But if you're gonna insist people are/are not Ni doms on the basis of how well they understand you, I'd say your understanding of the functions is pretty warped, seeing as it is centered around yourself and how much you like people. You seem to have some deep passion with comparing everyone to yourself, Jung, and Bruce Lee. How the hell is that ever gonna solidly determine type lol. If you keep building a system based on comparisons alone, it holds no meaning and one can't type people objectively with that.

Maybe more people would understand you if you actually stuck to the definitions the system offers. Before you say something like "I have no system", let me remind you that if you're practicing and applying a specific system of typology, you have to uphold its operational definitions, and not just talk about stuff as you relate to them.

And no, I don't think you're an Si user. You're definitely Ni, but I have an inkling that it's not your dominant function. That's not the point, though. The point is the way you type people is overly subjective and can err on unreliable. Sometimes you're right, and you get a good analogy through. But when you miss the mark, you miss it _hard_.

Responding to your edit:



FearAndTrembling said:


> Really? You joined this site to meet guys like me.
> 
> ^^ see. Inferior Se.


dafuq?


----------



## fair phantom

FearAndTrembling said:


> Because you don't understand the breadth of feeling that a well developed ENFJ can deliver once they hit Ti. Shakespeare is listed Fe-Ni in Socionics. Jung said Goethe was ENFJ. It makes sense. What loves the outside world more than: Fe-Ni-Se. What?


Why are Goethe and Shakespeare's types even relevant? Just saying person x is like person y therefore they are the same type as person y isn't sufficient. Individuals across types can have things in common.

Do you think no other type is capable of great breadth of feeling? Just because type a does something doesn't mean that no other type does.



FearAndTrembling said:


> I know it isn't often. But nearly every typologist, including Jung, thought he was a Fe dom. It is one of the most straightforward and last controversial typings there is. Not that it makes it right. But it makes sense also from functions. Fe loves the outside world. The object draws their energy. And they got Se pretty close to it. That is their bread and butter. I think Tolstoy and Dostoevsky are ENFJ now too.


Are all profound authors NFJ now?

And since you've been using appeal to authority to argue your points, isn't Dostoevsky used as _the_ example of EII/INFj/INFP in socionics? ( @Night Huntress ?)


----------



## Dangerose

sometimes I think I'm an NTP or something and then people are talking all smart-like and I'm just like...trying to tag along.
Stop T-ing, thread.

Am I sx/so or sx/sp? I dislike them both tbh but I kinda feel like I should like so and maybe I do it more than I think I do. Do I seem super so-last to you guys or could I be sx/so?


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> sometimes I think I'm an NTP or something and then people are talking all smart-like and I'm just like...trying to tag along.
> Stop T-ing, thread.
> 
> Am I sx/so or sx/sp? I dislike them both tbh but I kinda feel like I should like so and maybe I do it more than I think I do. Do I seem super so-last to you guys or could I be sx/so?


I don't think this thread is T-ing so much as, well, deep topics get discussed here. :laughing:

Well, I don't know much about Enneagram instinctual variants, but why are you disliking sx so much? :happy:


----------



## Fern

This thread has become a monster. It's bigger than us all.


----------



## galactic collision

Fern said:


> This thread has become a monster. It's bigger than us all.


Call me a crazy SO-dom, but I like being a part of something bigger than myself. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

just for the spark said:


> Call me a crazy SO-dom, but I like being a part of something bigger than myself. :wink:


You're a crazy SO dom. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> I don't think this thread is T-ing so much as, well, deep topics get discussed here. :laughing:
> 
> Well, I don't know much about Enneagram instinctual variants, but why are you disliking sx so much? :happy:


IDK, the past few pages were over my head)
...ok, searching 'sex gif' was a mistake, so I have no gif to explain that sx is not what I dislike, but sp and so)
SP: annoys me the most, because I know what it is, it's that factor that makes people all "But that could hurt _me_". Hard to explain but tbh I feel an unconscious disdain toward Sp-firsts (at least, the ones I notice). Or weirdly inferior. Hard to desribe, not my favorite instinct.
SO: annoys me less, I understand it to some degree, but the broadness of it kinda makes me go like:








maybe it's my middle one because I think...I socialize with people I don't care about, I care about...nations, and togetherness, and all that, but it feels kinda...cold to me too, it gets on my nerves in the same way an ok song will get on your nerves if you hear it everywhere or it's stuck in your head.


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> IDK, the past few pages were over my head)
> ...ok, searching 'sex gif' was a mistake, so I have no gif to explain that sx is not what I dislike, but sp and so)
> SP: annoys me the most, because I know what it is, it's that factor that makes people all "But that could hurt _me_". Hard to explain but tbh I feel an unconscious disdain toward Sp-firsts (at least, the ones I notice). Or weirdly inferior. Hard to desribe, not my favorite instinct.
> SO: annoys me less, I understand it to some degree, but the broadness of it kinda makes me go like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maybe it's my middle one because I think...I socialize with people I don't care about, I care about...nations, and togetherness, and all that, but it feels kinda...cold to me too, it gets on my nerves in the same way an ok song will get on your nerves if you hear it everywhere or it's stuck in your head.


Meanwhile, I feel disappointed that me and @Pressed Flowers didn't continue our debating. Ah, priorities, how I love neglecting you so.

Well, as far as this stuff goes, I'm not the *most* qualified, but from what I've read, SO is the most similar to Fe. Perhaps you're SX/SO, that's the most probable outcome to me, since you seem set on SX. :happy:


----------



## Greyhart

fair phantom said:


> Lolita style charms me. I'd like to try it at least once. Though my favorite Japanese subculture aesthetic is probably Mori Girl


Few years ago I was like "IM GON BE MORI GIRL" then I realized that if I with my posture and my well everything dress up like that I'll look like trash baby. :| I've no softness or sweetness whatsoever.



ElliCat said:


> GUYS I am lonely and cranky tonight. Warned the boyfriend on my day off that we would be going out for dinner at some point over the course of my working week and he said he was keen. Told him yesterday morning that we'd do it last night and he agreed. He then bailed on me to go to some shitty car thing with some friends and didn't even have a good time. Told him it was fine and we'd do it tonight. Apparently he then found it appropriate to wait until an hour before I finished work to go off and do the thing he'd been planning to do all day, and has left me alone all evening, and appears to have forgotten all about it. The whole point in me wanting to eat out is so that I can come back from work and not have to worry about cooking myself something decent for dinner. He knows this, because I have told him. But he always forgets, because it doesn't personally bother him. Goddammit. I feel like it's such a petty thing for me to be upset over but I am really disappointed.


*sweating* I do that too. Rapidly cancel or switch plans with someone. >_<'' I've only recently realized that it really bothers people.
@hoopla As much as I am sorry for you to have to deal with all of that but shit, your sister is 12. To think amount of pain she has to endure from both family and strangers. *shudder* As for MMS cream (whatever that is) when I am trying to prove something to parents sending them link (or printing if you want to) to article about that thing usually works. Since just about anything is more trustworthy than my words.



Barakiel said:


> Oh no, it's not coldness, per say, but he doesn't really seem to have a defined end for his story, and in the one interview I saw of him, he didn't really seem... Fe? And as for Fe types being cold, I personally haven't seen too much of it, as the main example of dark Fe types is Yuno, possessive and yandere to a fault, so I can't say that they're cold, per say. I'm still going to go with ENTP for him, though.


Paul Coelho? Nah, no way. NFJ would be right. 



hoopla said:


> Nope.
> 
> Never was, never is, never will be.









hoopla said:


> Trembling makes a great point when he says Ni is not symbolism for the sake of symbolism... it is a symbol. He's also right that Ni is derived from Se, and Se is derived from Ni. My INFJ friend looks at the world and what it is... and then pulls so much meaning out of it. @Greyhart plants an Si seed... and then it grows into conceptual awesomeness. I think OOOH WHAT COULD IT BE!!!???!?!?! and then use Si to answer that. *The inferior nags... the dominate answers. BDSM.*














Pressed Flowers said:


> Is anyone else getting that terrible Single Asian Women ad.














hoopla said:


> There are definitely some SP types that don't do much of anything, but yes, there are a lot of SP (usually IxSPs... especially ISFPs) who play up the oddness and think they are so damn weird but it's more aesthetic than they can fathom. Johnny Depp and Lorde are great examples of this. Definitely Ni users... but the aesthetic weirdness is still the main focal point.


Visually/behaviorally weirdest person I know ISFP hands down.



> People think T = smart. Lol.


Suggestion that F types are not into STEM drives me bananas. "It's unusual for xFxx be into science! Your T must be so strong!" or "No way your T is inferior if you into science this much!" *UGH.*



fair phantom said:


> English and History! :toast:
> 
> I am fascinated by the hard sciences, I just hate when they get a superior attitude. Especially since so many of them would then come crawling to English majors like me to help them with essays/cover letters/etc. :rollseyes:
> 
> Since physics majors are usually the worst about this, I love this xkcd comic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I should tag @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=242210" target="_blank">OvalCat</a></i></span>


Math is the King. Physics, biology and chemistry all stand under it.



Pressed Flowers said:


> Did I just read _No YouTube ads_.


Yeah, it block adds there too. I didn't know it had adds, tbh. Recently I turned it off for vloggers whom I want to support and I was like "WOAH COMMERCIALS". Haven't seen those in years.



just for spark said:


> THANK YOU. You are a gem!! I know I don't respond very often, and I don't always read every post (like...I'm SCARED of the fact that there are 1400+ pages of this thread. TERRIFIED. I don't even have the attention span to read one entire post sometimes!!!! wth!) but I am lowkey v invested in your typing process


Think about it not as "thread' but as "Skype group chat". With really long backlog. Also, I dig your avatar. *thumbs up*



> I actually have no idea how gossipy I am. I used to think I wasn't really, but then one night I was hanging out with some friends after not seeing them since we had graduated high school, and I started telling a story about this girl that none of us really liked. And then one friend said, "I love this part of the night." And I was like, "What?" And she said, "The part of the night when you start talking shit."


:laughing: My INFP friend goes from "I'm kind of mysterious and hard to open up" to "complaining and gossiping" when she is comfortable. Most people don't get to see that so I get questions like "How do you read her?" and I don't need to read her, she tell me stuff herself.



Pressed Flowers said:


> I relate to poor self image, ha. Sometimes I think I totally know how others perceive me... but it's always like 10x more negative than actuality. I say always. Sometimes. Sometimes I'm right on the money. Other times I just think everyone hates me but they actually sometimes don't??


Even my ENFJ type 3 friend has this "I'm not sure how I come off" to her. Any time I start thinking that I have low self-esteem one of my FJs comes forward and goes "I'm horrible/awkward/boring/uncharismatic!".



Pressed Flowers said:


> And @just for the spark please do not feel shy about posting! At this point we're just chatting. I don't know if any of us have even been on every page (except maybe @Greyhart, I have my suspicions she would be on every page. And possibly @fair phantom. It's a jump in and go. We've passed discussing my type and gone into the realm of partial personality discussion, partial typing discussions (for people other than me), and a whole lot of... seemingly unrelated discussion.
> 
> But not knowing every page won't hinder you at all. So please don't worry about that, you're great and of course you're always welcome here


I'm not on every page but I've read every page since I joined. ]:-> It's my morning news paper.



just for spark said:


> Ti is something I don't understand at all. I get Fe, because I get how feelings/ethics can come from outside yourself, but Ti? What the??? How could you find logic inside yourself? Logic is indisputable. There are gray areas in many situations, but usually the gray areas are in situations in which people are involved, and you can't generally apply logic to people matters, because people matters are too subjective and complicated for facts to really be of any use. When it comes down to it, logic is not something you can bend - it is not abstract the way emotions are. It's there, and provided you can understand it, it's clear.


Ti is like a math formula. It strips away context, it doesn't mater what you use it for - apples, planes or people lives, formula still has to stay true. Idea that you can't dissect something and find this persistent "true" formula to it bothers me a lot. Feelings to me are very simple for the most part. Like Inside Out cartoon I can assign generalized labels to them - I don't dig deeper, I dislike it. Once they become too fluid or complicated I abandon them.

Like my rant about boobies. Unfortunately, I rarely can muster _truly_ "caring" about social issues even if they are related to me. For me it's about conceding that it's important to others. So this rant is not about rights of my nipples or nipples of others but about how logically inconsistent it is. It drives me mad. "Sexual organs" argument doesn't even makes sense neither in biological nor in practical sense! And then goes how loosely "inappropriate nipples" are defined. What makes them inappropriate?!! They look the same for both genders aside from lump of glands of various size and more or less hair depending on genetics, age and race. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!!


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> Paul Coelho? Nah, no way. NFJ would be right.


Oh no, @FearAndTrembling was trying to relate Coelho to G.R.R. Martin by saying that their similarities made Martin an ENFJ. As such, I can't see Martin having any sort of Ni, and certainly not high Fe, so we agreed to disagree. :happy:


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Oh no, @FearAndTrembling was trying to relate Coelho to G.R.R. Martin by saying that their similarities made Martin an ENFJ. As such, I can't see Martin having any sort of Ni, and certainly not high Fe, so we agreed to disagree. :happy:


Aaah, yeah. Martin doesn't strike me as *E*NTP but convoluted overdrawn epic with fuck ton of characters and no end in sight sounds like something Ne would be interested in.


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> Aaah, yeah. Martin doesn't strike me as *E*NTP but convoluted overdrawn epic with fuck ton of characters and no end in sight sounds like something Ne would be interested in.


Martin seems like the inverse of Rowling to me, and Game of Thrones as a whole seems incredibly Ne. _"Hey, let's introduce all these plot lines, some of which will *never* be resolved, and trim down the fat by gruesomely murdering all the loose ends."_ :laughing:


----------



## Greyhart

Barakiel said:


> Martin seems like the inverse of Rowling to me, and Game of Thrones as a whole seems incredibly Ne. _"Hey, let's introduce all these plot lines, some of which will *never* be resolved, and trim down the fat by gruesomely murdering all the loose ends."_ :laughing:





> “I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”


This sounds incredibly Ne approach to writing.


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Meanwhile, I feel disappointed that me and @Pressed Flowers didn't continue our debating. Ah, priorities, how I love neglecting you so.
> 
> Well, as far as this stuff goes, I'm not the *most* qualified, but from what I've read, SO is the most similar to Fe. Perhaps you're SX/SO, that's the most probable outcome to me, *since you seem set on SX.* :happy:


If you think I'm something else feel free to tell me)


----------



## Barakiel

Greyhart said:


> This sounds incredibly Ne approach to writing.


Compared to Rowling, his Ne is much more natural and frames his entire story, whereas with Rowling, Si is the core of hers. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> If you think I'm something else feel free to tell me)


You're different to me. Pretty much the only thing we have in common is that we expect reactions, that's one thing I saw in your video with your brother. Other than that, I can't pin down much, though even if I did, I'm sure someone would come with a rake and pull the pins out. :dry:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> You're different to me. Pretty much the only thing we have in common is that we expect reactions, that's one thing I saw in your video with your brother. Other than that, I can't pin down much, though even if I did, I'm sure someone would come with a rake and pull the pins out. :dry:


Fair enough and I enjoy your metaphor)


----------



## Persephone Soul

@just for the spark

"Ti is something I don't understand _at all_. I get Fe, because I get how feelings/ethics can come from outside yourself, but Ti? What the??? How could you find logic inside yourself? Logic is indisputable. There are gray areas in many situations, but usually the gray areas are in situations in which people are involved, and you can't generally apply logic to people matters, because people matters are too subjective and complicated for facts to really be of any use. When it comes down to it, logic is not something you can bend - it is not abstract the way emotions are. It's there, and provided you can understand it, it's clear."

*^Yes!*


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> Fair enough and I enjoy your metaphor)


 Well, since I'm the only one responding to you at the moment, why do you think you're SX? Maybe I can help in some way regarding that.


----------



## Greyhart

paradise rain said:


> @just for the spark
> 
> "ti is something i don't understand _at all_. I get fe, because i get how feelings/ethics can come from outside yourself, but ti? What the??? How could you find logic inside yourself? Logic is indisputable. There are gray areas in many situations, but usually the gray areas are in situations in which people are involved, and you can't generally apply logic to people matters, because people matters are too subjective and complicated for facts to really be of any use. When it comes down to it, logic is not something you can bend - it is not abstract the way emotions are. It's there, and provided you can understand it, it's clear."
> 
> *^yes!*


math just think about math!


> ti is like a math formula. It strips away context, it doesn't mater what you use it for - apples, planes or people lives, formula still has to stay true. Idea that you can't dissect something and find this persistent "true" formula to it bothers me a lot.


GUYS
http://personalitycafe.com/support-suggestions/594569-complaint-forums.html
PERC'S FOUNDER IS HYDRA!


----------



## Greyhart

I need fresh opinion here
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/592370-intp-infp-some-help-needed.html

Kill me but I see a feeler type.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> sometimes I think I'm an NTP or something and then people are talking all smart-like and I'm just like...trying to tag along.
> Stop T-ing, thread.
> 
> Am I sx/so or sx/sp? I dislike them both tbh but I kinda feel like I should like so and maybe I do it more than I think I do. Do I seem super so-last to you guys or could I be sx/so?


I understand why you are averse to sp. But there are a lot of good things about having sp first or second! But let's explore this and make sure)

I think you are sx/sp based on the topics in part because of the topics that you tend to bring up:



> primary concerns - physical safety, comfort, and well-being; securing an orderly and aesthetically pleasing way of life (food, clothing, money, housing, and physical health)


securing an orderly and aesthetically pleasing way of life sounds like you to me. 

I also see aspects of you in this description:



> 1a) SP dominant or secondary - survival, comfort, habits, supplies. You will take care of your basic needs and needs of those who are close to you. These people set up little homes or nests for themselves wherever they go. It can becomes neurotic when fear and habit distort the instinct (e.g. eating disorders, hoarding). One may experience “issues” that drain energy and cause one to lose Presence. Sp firsts are the grounded version of their type, while sp-seconds may have similar concerns but in lighter, more exploratory form.
> 
> More on SP dominance in health and unhealth (from Oceanmoonshine's)
> 
> Those individuals who are dominated by the instinct for self-preservation often have a grounded or practical quality; they frequently develop a high degree of self-sufficiency, discipline and maturity. Many self-pres subtypes devote themselves to programs for self-improvement and, of all the subtypes are probably the most “focused.” All of these qualities can clearly be beneficial, but when the personality is unbalanced, a dominant self-preservational instinct can manifest in an obsessive concern with questions of health, such as a focus on diet or exercise which might be punitive or otherwise excessive. Some self-pres types, when unbalanced, worry too much about health, mortality, finances or security. In fact, as life is ephemeral and safety an illusion, worry in general, of whatever sort, is a frequent manifestation of a dominant instinct for self-preservation.


though obviously being sx-first makes you a bit less steady. 

Meanwhile this description of sp-last/sp blind spot sounds _un_like you to me: 



> b) SP blind spot - lack of solid foundation, lack in comfort and coziness, lack in attention to health and upkeep, since these people are rarely concerned about sp matters. There is fear is of being an "eternal child" who won’t take care of ones’ self and expectation of failure in dealing with sp instinct. They tend to look down on sp-domain, express certain cynicism towards it e.g. state that sp-firsts are too fearful and “don’t know how to really live".
> 
> More on SP blind spot
> 
> When the instinct for self-preservation is last in the instinctual stacking, the individual will often be somewhat ungrounded or seemingly “immature.” Such individuals often have a hard time focusing on issues such as financial security or the commitment to the development of practical skills. Sometimes, issues of health are ignored. In the more extroverted types, individuals who are self-pres last, often find it difficult to develop “inwardness.”


You strike me as having a good sense of "inwardness"—especially for an Fe-dom type 2. And you seem mature for your age. Am I wrong?

Maybe you could look at this thread and compare what you relate to with so and sp? as well as sx/so versus sx/sp: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/118168-resource-thread-instinctual-variants-stackings.html


----------



## Future2Future

Greyhart said:


> I need fresh opinion here
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/592370-intp-infp-some-help-needed.html
> 
> Kill me but I see a feeler type.


He sounds four times more of a feeler than me, WTF is going on. :suspicion: 

I'd say INFP, as an out-of-nowhere speculation.


Edit : 
Could be an INFJ too


> I'm usually good at adjusting to converse with just about anyone.





> I think it must be very difficult for people to predict my behavior





> I can be very warm and touchy-feely, and get very attached to a few specific people.





> Don't get me wrong, I love adventure and I love people.


That's what caught my attention


----------



## fair phantom

just for the spark said:


> This is so interesting and exactly the opposite of the way I experience the world!!
> 
> Funny you should mention Inside Out because I am literally OBSESSED with that movie. I have seen it three times already, I am trying to find a light blue turtleneck to put together a Sadness costume, Inside Out posters are my phone wallpaper and background right now...like, it's bad. And I can totally see emotions running my head like that - the concept makes perfect sense to me and I also related A LOT to Riley in the fact that Joy was her ruling emotion but sometimes it seemed like she wasn't allowed to feel other emotions or felt guilty for feeling anything other than happy.


I haven't seen Inside Out yet, but I imagine I will find it relatable, though my emotions are rarely as clear cut as the film seems to make them? When I sort out my feelings/thoughts and work through ethical/emotional problems, I often see images where different emotions or aspects of me are personified. A metaphorical battle can be taking place inside and no one would be able to tell from the outside. I am so filled with different emotions all the time that I don't know how all of them could be expressed on my face. 



> Then again, I do feel a lot of other emotions. But in general I feel that I make rational decisions. I often feel like a bit of a politician - ultimately selfish, but still very diplomatic. An Fi + Te analogy for you. I've even had friends tell me that when I talk, it sounds like I'm lowkey making a speech. Because I'm thinking so hard about what I'm going to say next, I'm choosing the right words. I think that's Ne and my 1 fix working together. Ne sees all the thoughts that _could_ be shared, and my 1 fix knows that there is one _right_ thought that _must_ be shared. I self-edit a lot. Fi + Te.


I also feel my decisions are rational. I usually recognize when irrational forces are affecting me and either try to contain them, or I delay making a decision until I am in a clearer state. I wish I was so well-spoken. Sometimes I am, but at times I feel like my thoughts rush forward and if I get too excited about an idea the words can come out before I can evaluate them. :/



> But sometimes I think that feelings are too abstract, and when we talk about the difference between Fi and Fe everything gets muddled and confusing. It's much easier to see the difference between Te and Ti, even in tertiary or inferior positions. I keep going through little phases where I think, "Wait, maybe I'm an ENTP actually?" I remember that when it comes to proving a point, I always make personal assertions and then _find objective outside sources_ to back them up. Fi + Te. "This is the right thing to do - but if my pathos/ethos will not get through to you, here is proof in the form of statistical data, or scientific findings. Logos." I look outside of myself for the logic. Which is why I _hated_ math class until I got to statistics - I _loved_ statistics! I was like, "Finally - I can apply this!" I could understand it so much better because I could see the real world application immediately. The fact that my stats teacher was a massive asshole didn't even make me hate stats. Because I was so relieved that finally I was learning something _useful_.


I think I most often prove my points in this way. However the division between Te and Ti isn't so clear to me. For example, I liked math class as long as it didn't get too repetitive. The lack of immediate real world application didn't bother me when doing algebra or calculus. I never bothered to take statistics so I don't know how I'd feel about it.



> Ti is something I don't understand _at all_. I get Fe, because I get how feelings/ethics can come from outside yourself, but Ti? What the??? How could you find logic inside yourself? Logic is indisputable. There are gray areas in many situations, but usually the gray areas are in situations in which people are involved, and you can't generally apply logic to people matters, because people matters are too subjective and complicated for facts to really be of any use. When it comes down to it, logic is not something you can bend - it is not abstract the way emotions are. It's there, and provided you can understand it, it's clear.
> 
> Fi + Te.


I can't really relate to this part as much. In a way I can, but in other ways…. 

I need to think it over more.



just for the spark said:


> Call me a crazy SO-dom, but I like being a part of something bigger than myself. :wink:


As long as I can remain myself and it is my choice, I find it a powerful experience to be a part of something bigger)



Greyhart said:


> Few years ago I was like "IM GON BE MORI GIRL" then I realized that if I with my posture and my well everything dress up like that I'll look like trash baby. :| I've no softness or sweetness whatsoever.


Raccoons aren't meant to be soft and sweet.




> Suggestion that F types are not into STEM drives me bananas. "It's unusual for xFxx be into science! Your T must be so strong!" or "No way your T is inferior if you into science this much!" *UGH.*
> 
> It is total bull. I know a number of Fs who are in STEM fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Math is the King. Physics, biology and chemistry all stand under it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ti is like a math formula. It strips away context, it doesn't mater what you use it for - apples, planes or people lives, formula still has to stay true. Idea that you can't dissect something and find this persistent "true" formula to it bothers me a lot. Feelings to me are very simple for the most part. Like Inside Out cartoon I can assign generalized labels to them - I don't dig deeper, I dislike it. Once they become too fluid or complicated I abandon them.
> 
> Like my rant about boobies. Unfortunately, I rarely can muster _truly_ "caring" about social issues even if they are related to me. For me it's about conceding that it's important to others. So this rant is not about rights of my nipples or nipples of others but about how logically inconsistent it is. It drives me mad. "Sexual organs" argument doesn't even makes sense neither in biological nor in practical sense! And then goes how loosely "inappropriate nipples" are defined. What makes them inappropriate?!! They look the same for both genders aside from lump of glands of various size and more or less hair depending on genetics, age and race. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I love Ti. I wish I was better at it.
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds incredibly Ne approach to writing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> RIGHT?!
> 
> 
> 
> Greyhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I need fresh opinion here
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/592370-intp-infp-some-help-needed.html
> 
> Kill me but I see a feeler type.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do too. Question 4 sticks out to me in particular. Maybe I'm just biased by the INTPs I know, but running "into conflict head-first" and only remaining calm "in my best moods" doesn't seem like INTP to me. While those I know might choose to engage/not engage based on the situation, they would always be calm when engaging, at least for awhile (sometimes their inferior Fe can get agitated by the other person's reactions). The answer sounds more like me than them. :/
Click to expand...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> sometimes I think I'm an NTP or something and then people are talking all smart-like and I'm just like...trying to tag along.
> Stop T-ing, thread.
> 
> Am I sx/so or sx/sp? I dislike them both tbh but I kinda feel like I should like so and maybe I do it more than I think I do. Do I seem super so-last to you guys or could I be sx/so?





> Sexual/Self-pres
> 
> 
> Jealousy is a big issue for the sexual variant of type Two. When unhealthy, they can’t see how they push away the people from whom they most want love. It becomes a vicious cycle because the more they get rejected the more they push. Twos are usually very good at reading others' emotions and needs, but their blind spot (just like all the heart centered types) is not always being able to read how they are making others feel, especially in the present. The Two is past oriented; they have an emotional tally in their minds of all the good they have done in the past for others, but are blind to how they can make others feel at the moment. This is common to all unhealthy Twos, but is even more accentuated in the sexual variant because the underlying fear of both the enneatype and the sexual instinct are very similar.
> 
> This subtype loves attention. They give by shows of affection and by spending time with those they are focused on. They make themselves attractive to be lovable. They can be very flirtatious, and are very good at making the other person feel special. On the down side, if this attention is not reciprocated, they can become controlling and manipulative with their loved ones. When unhealthy, the sex/self-pres subtype can become volatile with their intimates. When healthier, the Two develops powers of introspection which helps them form truly healthy relationships.
> 
> Telling the difference between self-pres/sexual subtype and sexual/self-pres subtype can be very difficult with enneatype Two because type Two energy itself can mimic the energy of the sexual instinct. Therefore, a self-pres Two can still have many of the same issues as the sexual Two. The biggest difference will be in intensity. When unhealthy, the self-pres/sexual Two will adopt more of an air of entitlement as compared to the sexual/self-pres subtype. They will be less direct when it comes to expressing their needs. They expect their intimates to read their minds and do things for them to show their appreciation.
> 
> Sexual/Social
> 
> This subtype shares most of the same issues with the sex/self-pres subtype - the flirtatiousness, the jealousy, and the intense focus on others. They differ in that they give their attention to more people. They actually have a softer presentation than the fiercely intense sex/self-pres. This subtype has a lot of charisma. On the high side, they can be a role model for acceptance and caring. Their love can spread to all of humanity. The down side can be similar to that of the sex/self-pres, but the secondary social instinct brings the issue of pride more into focus as well.
> 
> The sexual/social, like the social/sexual, tend to consider their presence to be their gift. They can be wonderful friends just like the soc/sex, the difference being that their relationships are taken more seriously, once they move beyond the early stages. They may not work as hard in those early stages as the soc/sex will, but at some point, when the relationship becomes more intimate, the sexual variant issues get triggered. With the soc/sexual the issues and dysfunction are more apparent before the intimacy even begins.
> 
> [Source]


You could bold and underline what applies to you like I did?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Greyhart said:


> This sounds incredibly Ne approach to writing.


I understand it as in... My stories are themselves. I do not create them, I discover them. And in that since, just as I discover them, I only tame them and help them grow as I still discover them. 

That said... I know what will happen in my story. I don't sit down to write and crack my knuckles and see where my imagination takes me. Some side things aren't planned, of course, but everything major is. And I think that's what GRRM means? If that's what he means, then I'm an architect.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

just for the spark said:


> This is so interesting and exactly the opposite of the way I experience the world!!
> 
> Funny you should mention Inside Out because I am literally OBSESSED with that movie. I have seen it three times already, I am trying to find a light blue turtleneck to put together a Sadness costume, Inside Out posters are my phone wallpaper and background right now...like, it's bad. And I can totally see emotions running my head like that - the concept makes perfect sense to me and I also related A LOT to Riley in the fact that Joy was her ruling emotion but sometimes it seemed like she wasn't allowed to feel other emotions or felt guilty for feeling anything other than happy.
> 
> Then again, I do feel a lot of other emotions. But in general I feel that I make rational decisions. I often feel like a bit of a politician - ultimately selfish, but still very diplomatic. An Fi + Te analogy for you. I've even had friends tell me that when I talk, it sounds like I'm lowkey making a speech. Because I'm thinking so hard about what I'm going to say next, I'm choosing the right words. I think that's Ne and my 1 fix working together. Ne sees all the thoughts that _could_ be shared, and my 1 fix knows that there is one _right_ thought that _must_ be shared. I self-edit a lot. Fi + Te.
> 
> But sometimes I think that feelings are too abstract, and when we talk about the difference between Fi and Fe everything gets muddled and confusing. It's much easier to see the difference between Te and Ti, even in tertiary or inferior positions. I keep going through little phases where I think, "Wait, maybe I'm an ENTP actually?" I remember that when it comes to proving a point, I always make personal assertions and then _find objective outside sources_ to back them up. Fi + Te. "This is the right thing to do - but if my pathos/ethos will not get through to you, here is proof in the form of statistical data, or scientific findings. Logos." I look outside of myself for the logic. Which is why I _hated_ math class until I got to statistics - I _loved_ statistics! I was like, "Finally - I can apply this!" I could understand it so much better because I could see the real world application immediately. The fact that my stats teacher was a massive asshole didn't even make me hate stats. Because I was so relieved that finally I was learning something _useful_.
> 
> Ti is something I don't understand _at all_. I get Fe, because I get how feelings/ethics can come from outside yourself, but Ti? What the??? How could you find logic inside yourself? Logic is indisputable. There are gray areas in many situations, but usually the gray areas are in situations in which people are involved, and you can't generally apply logic to people matters, because people matters are too subjective and complicated for facts to really be of any use. When it comes down to it, logic is not something you can bend - it is not abstract the way emotions are. It's there, and provided you can understand it, it's clear.
> 
> Fi + Te.


When I talk, it sounds like I'm telling a joke. Trying to be funny. I realized this after my friend and I were coming back from a (very excellent) comedian's act. I was talking to her, and I realized, "oh crap, it sounds like I'm trying to be funny and imitate the guy!" Then I tried to moderate it, and realized... I just _talk_ like that. I'm naturally... joking? I wonder if it isn't a self defense mechanism - I've always been laughed at, what I say, so maybe I've learned to always seem to be "joking" so as not to emberass myself by being too serious? - but saying things that laughter can easily run off of seems to be a very common vocal thing for me. 

I don't understand Te at all either  I think I get Fe and Fi. I see a cloud of value. My cloud of value is everywhere, and it's already there as I walk. This mommy loves baby. We don't drop baby because baby is loved. (And also because every living thing has innate value, but I think that's a debatable part of Fe.) With Fi, I imagine it's... the cloud of value is stored up in a person rather than scattered around, and they (you) infuse what they come across with value as they see fit. Don't drop baby because _I_ love baby, and I don't want anything to happen to her. (I agree with that statement, but I'm thinking... personal value of object [person] is more influential.) 

I don't know how that works with Te and Ti  

To me, Ti is... Logic is internal. It's knowing principals, I guess, figuring out the currents of life (although I do partially identify that with Ni as well; I get the two very confused). When I speak about politics, and my opinions, it's abstract. When the government does this, the people do this. For this purpose, we need to avoid doing this. Etc. My ESTJ neighbor has started to scream "don't say anything without facts to back it up!!!" and in return I have... sought facts to back it up. I'm planning on getting a binder together to put articles of my sources so when I'm with Te folk I'll be able to have something to go on. (Which works, until they decide to hate on your sources ;D nonetheless) 

But yeah, I would appreciate some explanations of what Te is to you and how you experience it  it's something I don't understand, and as @shinynotshiny has brought up a few times, many of the understandings of Te on PerC are a bit typist and unkind to the function. Ti is the special, logical, smart function. Te is too, but I'm not sure how it works because descriptions can unfortunately be so crappy. 

And... can't comment on Inside Out! Hopefully we'll see it today.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

NGL last night I went to bed very upset 

this discussion got me thinking about some things that really hurt 

like the fact that a bug's life is not recognized as the masterpiece it is 

that bitterness towards other pixar movies and towards society for not appreciating the magic of a bug's life will potentially come out as I view inside out 

I told my dad about it and he is considering that we all stay home and watch bug's life as a family rather than seeing inside out 

and that won't really help because regardless bug's life will go unappreciated by the world at large. 

but it might help my heart some


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Pressed Flowers

Was I really four when that film came out? Time flies.

But I agree. I always knew it was Pixar's weakest movie. I loved it anyway. I think people's expectations were unreasonably high because Toy Story was a masterpiece and A Bug's Life was more idyllic and childlike, which is ironic when you consider the former is about toys. What I also liked about Toy Story is every character was extremely well developed, aside from the family, but they were irrelevant so it didn't matter. I *really* wish Princess Ada and her mother had more character development. Honestly... all of the ants. Too much focus on Flick and Dot. I fucking love Flick though; sexy little misfit nerd. Circus Bugs were the greatest part of the film. I thought the animation was gorgeous too... it was like exploring how ants view and perceive the world. Riding a flower? That was a stunning scene. Building that bird thing (I haven't seen it in years sorry) was also gorgeous. 

I think the biggest problem is the film was rushed due to the whole Antz Vs A Bugs Life competition (look it up). It definitely feels haphazard and thrown together in some places, but I agree. Deserves more love. So go boycott Inside Out and start a revolution. 

Am I the only who feels that A Bugs Life is the most "family" out of all the Pixar flicks? If A Bugs Life came out now, I would think it was cute, but wouldn't appreciate it as much as if I saw it as a kid. You can enjoy the other Pixar films at any age. This one feels the most like kids stuff. I think Dot is probably the main reason for this. And the movie may have been a masterpiece without her. I had to say it.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@fair phantom I decided I am So and Sx but the order is difficult to determine. Perfect for my social causes penchant though, right?


----------



## Future2Future

hoopla said:


> @Pressed Flowers
> 
> Am I the only who feels that A Bugs Life is the most "family" out of all the Pixar flicks? If A Bugs Life came out now, I would think it was cute, but wouldn't appreciate it as much as if I saw it as a kid. You can enjoy the other Pixar films at any age. This one feels the most like kids stuff. I think Dot is probably the main reason for this. And the movie may have been a masterpiece without her. I had to say it.


Wall-E and Finding Nemo were also pretty high on the "family scale" :kitteh:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@hoopla oh trust me, I know about Antz vs Bug's Life. Freaking Dreamworks. 

And guess what movie we watched at Daycare? _Antz._ There will never be retribution enough. 

Cars and The Incredibles are probably two of my least favorite Pixar movies... yet I was watching them while babysitting the other day, and I realized... Pixar makes a... It's hard to describe... They meld together what is of something. The superheroes. NASCAR. They blend together what it is and make something _charming_ and meaningful. 

They don't do that with A Bug's Life. It's about... bugs, but more than bugs, it's about human society and human politics and the power of the individual. A story that... doesn't really do much actually with insects on a biological level. It's not synthesizing what insects are and making something meaningful. It's saying something meaningful with "bugs" as characters. 

I love it nonetheless... for a dozen reasons. 

1. The POLITICS. The greater meanings of what happens. Love. [not as in, the meaning is love - love is at the core of every Disney piece, but it's not especially important in this one - but I love the political aspects of the story]

2. The characters. All of them. Adda (Atta?) x Flick was like my first OTP. Dot was my childhood role model. I find the circus bugs annoying, but the grasshoppers are great, and I even love the ant side characters. 

3. okay I'm running out of reasons. 

But I think A Bug's Life is _such_ a powerful movie once you realize the greater philosophical and political meanings there. It's gorgeous. It's not a compacted, beautiful little world like I see Cars and Toy Story and freaking WallE being... but the messages stand. The intensity stands. The characterization stands. The humor stands. There isn't as much "adult humor," but I think the deeper meanings of the story are priceless. I think it will continue to be my favorite animated film / Pixar film for years to come.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Well, I guess the bugs are significant because bugs are so small, the story is already small, but it becomes big? It's about how even though you're small, you feel small, you are small, really you have so much more potential and worth than that... on a personal scale, which I think we appreciated as children with the easily fed "rock/seed" metaphor, but also on a political level with how Flick - an outcast in his colony, which is oppressed in and of itself - manages to be the one to make a difference and get his people (bugs) to make a difference in asserting themselves. 

I'm so enchanted by that. What is shown through the movie politically. My dad tells me it's a cliche story. Oh well. Everything's a cliche story. A Bug's Life captures that political message magnificently. 

Also, this song! [I only noticed it recently, but it's helped me better understand the essence of the srory]






I've been wanting to ponder it for a while. I remember it illuminating the smallness and bigness, but I'm not really listening to it enough to point those things out now.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Really bad typing time!

*For entertainment purposes only:*


* *




Flick: Ti/Fe fo show! He was quite the man of action... did he carry out ideas? I'd have to rewatch it. He's my favorite character either way.
Dot: ESFP right? 
Princess Ada: uh some kind of SJ. Strong Je valuer.
Hopper: ENTJ because villain. Jokes aside, definitely a strong Te. "This is the way things are we do dis this way for the harvest every time". I may have found an xSTJ villain. Look at that!
The caterpillar: Fe dom? Pe dom? Idk something with Fe probably.
The ladybug? maybe ESTP? Was it Fe or Je? God idk.
Stickbug: The ladybug was hilarious but fuck everyone stick bug was the funniest. ISTP? ISTJ?
The psychic thing: Ni or Si type? ...Hmm. I'd really have to think about that.
The old guy playing chess in the short featured on the VHS tape: ISTP. *Think about it.*




It's been too long since I've seen that movie.

I googled "The old guy playing chess in the short featured on the VHS tape" and the wiki for Gerri's Game was the first thing to pop up. That is amazing.






He could also be INTP too. That's probably a better typing. Playing out the ideas of his alter ego. A Ti dom anyway. There's something inferior Fe about this short to me. Probably just me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> Really bad typing time!
> 
> *For entertainment purposes only:*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flick: Ti/Fe fo show! He was quite the man of action... did he carry out ideas? I'd have to rewatch it. He's my favorite character either way.
> Dot: ESFP right?
> Princess Ada: uh some kind of SJ. Strong Je valuer.
> Hopper: ENTJ because villain. Jokes aside, definitely a strong Te. "This is the way things are we do dis this way for the harvest every time". I may have found an xSTJ villain. Look at that!
> The caterpillar: Fe dom? Pe dom? Idk something with Fe probably.
> The ladybug? maybe ESTP? Was it Fe or Je? God idk.
> Stickbug: The ladybug was hilarious but fuck everyone stick bug was the funniest. ISTP? ISTJ?
> The psychic thing: Ni or Si type? ...Hmm. I'd really have to think about that.
> The old guy playing chess in the short featured on the VHS tape: ISTP. *Think about it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been too long since I've seen that movie.


Yes! I was certainly hoping for this. We discussed it on the Disney thread, me and someone, but I forgot what we came to. I think I argued for and against Hopper's Ni. 

I think I mostly agree. I'm not sure about Flick's type, but I think Atta is ESJ (maybe ESFJ, she reminds me of the sister on Phineas and Ferb) and I'm pretty convinced Dot is an ESFP. 

And I don't care about the circus bugs at this time. Like I really just don't care.


----------



## Immolate

Disney/Pixar?

This thread knows how I feel about that :grumpy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

ProtoCosmos said:


> Wall-E and Finding Nemo were also pretty high on the "family scale" :kitteh:


Walle doesn't seem very much like a family movie. It's like... massively a deeper message movie, with some cute stuff on the surface. But it's like pure philosophy. My mother hated it, my sister hated it, my dad and I were mildly annoyed with it, but my crazy genius uncle loves it and appreciates it and wants it recognized with a medal or something for its brilliance. 

I mean, it is a family movie, obviously, but it's not one of the Pixar movies I would rate as most family oriented. Family oriented would maybe be 

1. Finding Nemo 

2. Cars 

3. Brave

4. Toy Story 

5. A Bug's Life

6. Up 

7. The Incredibles 

8. Wall-e ? 

9. I think I'm missing a movie (not doing sequels, Cars 2 is obviously the most family friendly movie) but I think Ratatouie is the Pixar movie with the most blatant adult content.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> NGL last night I went to bed very upset
> 
> this discussion got me thinking about some things that really hurt
> 
> like the fact that a bug's life is not recognized as the masterpiece it is
> 
> that bitterness towards other pixar movies and towards society for not appreciating the magic of a bug's life will potentially come out as I view inside out
> 
> I told my dad about it and he is considering that we all stay home and watch bug's life as a family rather than seeing inside out
> 
> and that won't really help because regardless bug's life will go unappreciated by the world at large.
> 
> but it might help my heart some


I love this movie though!
And I recently realized that the stick insect is voiced by this guy who if you haven't noticed plays one of my favorite characters!


----------



## Dangerose

hoopla said:


> Really bad typing time!
> 
> *For entertainment purposes only:*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flick: Ti/Fe fo show! He was quite the man of action... did he carry out ideas? I'd have to rewatch it. He's my favorite character either way.
> Dot: ESFP right?
> Princess Ada: uh some kind of SJ. Strong Je valuer.
> Hopper: ENTJ because villain. Jokes aside, definitely a strong Te. "This is the way things are we do dis this way for the harvest every time". I may have found an xSTJ villain. Look at that!
> The caterpillar: Fe dom? Pe dom? Idk something with Fe probably.
> The ladybug? maybe ESTP? Was it Fe or Je? God idk.
> Stickbug: The ladybug was hilarious but fuck everyone stick bug was the funniest. ISTP? ISTJ?
> The psychic thing: Ni or Si type? ...Hmm. I'd really have to think about that.
> The old guy playing chess in the short featured on the VHS tape: ISTP. *Think about it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been too long since I've seen that movie.
> 
> I googled "The old guy playing chess in the short featured on the VHS tape" and the wiki for Gerri's Game was the first thing to pop up. That is amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He could also be INTP too. That's probably a better typing. Playing out the ideas of his alter ego. A Ti dom anyway. There's something inferior Fe about this short to me. Probably just me.


I HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT THIS GUY
I love this guy
I like ISTP for him. He's in the park and he literally walks over to the other side of the board each time.


----------



## orbit

I loved Ratatouille c,:

2) Wall-E
3) A Bug's Life
4) Up
5) The Incredibles
6) Finding Nemo
7) Cars
8) Toy Story

Now I'm off to read the morning newspaper yay! 
I liked The Bug's Life message. You can screw up but continue on. Was the Lewis thing with the future— Meet the Robinson's Pixar? I'm afraid the message will be lost if I leave this page because it reloads when I return sometimes sorry.


----------



## Immolate

man-turned-pig and little girls who enjoy gun fights, now this is the stuff


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Thing is, I pretty much have the same history, deemed "gifted" in elementary school, but some of the most creative and soulful people I know didn't go to college, some even dropped high school. My point wasn't to say your life is small, on the contrary. No one's life is small. I just feel you give AP/Gifted courses too much credit, but that's a personal impression more than anything else.


The class I struggled with the most my Senior year was Chemistry. Regular Chemistry. With the smart freshmen who were getting ahead in science and high school, while I couldn't figure it out.  I'm just a little sad because I know of the people who consider themselves superior because they were in special programming (I've referenced some, but I've come in contact with too many others), and I really hope I don't give off the impression of being like them. I know AP and Gifted classes weren't especially challenging, but they did help me. And those social environments shaped me (mostly in bad ways). They shaped me because I was with a bunch of cows who considered themselves intellectually superior to others... and I can't explain that point, how that impacted me, without bringing up the fact that I was in almost all AP classes and surrounded by those people. 

But... I certainly understand how the... I can't say greatest because I really believe everyone is the greatest person, but I've met so many creative people, and not many of them were in the gifted program. That's what I hate about it so much. We were literally "gifted," chosen. Our parents took that seriously. We were special. I tried to explain it to the other day how much I hated that to my dad, that having that mentality is so harmful to the kids falsely deemed _not_ special by exclusion... and he didn't get it, lol! _But you guys are special, you do think differently, that's why you were there! _ Like, people actually have is mentality about people with high IQs, and I hate it. 

That's not what I mean about the environment being creative. It wasn't because the students were especially creative or special or "gifted". It wasn't Ant Farm. But we were allowed to do amazing activities, we were allowed to have _fun_, we were encouraged to slack off and go into our imaginations because we were a step away from the regimented classrooms just beside us. The environment in gifted is what shaped our creative expression more than anything I think. 

I definitely agree though that most of the more creative and, as you beautifully said, "soulful" people are not in gifted. They do drop out. They aren't necessarily academically successful, some not successful at all... but that doesn't really matter. (And may society someday realize that too. :/)


----------



## orbit

At this point I don't think I have the right to judge people's intelligence or talent or deepness or perceptiveness. I don't care anymore. If you contribute something, that's all I care about. Some people work so hard and don't get it and it's tragic

I hate the idea of "YOU CAN GET ANYTHING IF YOU TRY HARD ENOUGH." Lol no. That just crushes self esteem. Some people just don't get titration calculations and quantum numbers.


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> And, just for fun
> 
> Loose Enneagram typings of Pixar movies?
> 
> (I just know instincts atm for a few, but maybe I'll attach numbers with them)
> 
> Ratatouie - 4 SP/SX or 4 SX/SP
> 
> A Bug's Life - can't type the number because I'm biased, but I think it's SO/SP. with 6, 9(w8), or 3(w2)
> 
> Finding Nemo - SP/SX? I'm thinking SP/SO is closer. 1w2 7w6?
> 
> Cars - 3w4 8w9 7w8 sp/sx ?
> 
> Walle - 5w6 2w1 9w1 SP/SO (maybe SO/SP)
> 
> The Incredibles - 8w7 7w8/6w7 3w2/2w1/2w3 SO/SX
> 
> Up - I don't know, I hate this movie. It seems 6 in a cute way though, maybe with 4 or 2, body last?
> 
> Brave - 8w9 7 4w3 SX/SP?


Incredibles is 6w7 so/sx IMO!! God I love that movie! I have always been a big superhero person. 

I see Up as 5-fixed 9w1, actually. Sorry! 

Agree that Cars feels like a type 3 movie


----------



## orbit

Pressed Flowers said:


> What really got me about hard sciences... was when we had to read Rosalind Franklin's biography in AP Bio. It was hilarious! We have been taught all our lives that science is a cooperative thing, people working hand in hand together to make discoveries to change the world... that book showed me that in at least 1950, that wasn't the case. Science is still touched by human competition, bias, and pettiness.
> 
> I mean... It actually excited me. That's the book I think that made me realize I need to be in academia. In that was, Rosie lived my dream... she really did. Just not science for me.


Rosie was amazing. I should get more books about her. I still have her quotes on my white board. 
My math teacher has shown us that math is competition and people compete for names and everything is misattributed so nothing really matters.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

just for the spark said:


> Incredibles is 6w7 so/sx IMO!! God I love that movie! I have always been a big superhero person.
> 
> I see Up as 5-fixed 9w1, actually. Sorry!
> 
> Agree that Cars feels like a type 3 movie


Gah. I can see where Up would be 9. It's so dreamy. But for some reason I have an aversion to dreamy stuff... unless it's like, connected to a meaning I like (like The Giver is dreamy, the world is loose, but I tolerate that because the message is incredible regardless). I just didn't get that pull from Up  but I probably need to suffer and watch it again.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> The class I struggled with the most my Senior year was Chemistry. Regular Chemistry. With the smart freshmen who were getting ahead in science and high school, while I couldn't figure it out.  I'm just a little sad because I know of the people who consider themselves superior because they were in special programming (I've referenced some, but I've come in contact with too many others), and I really hope I don't give off the impression of being like them. I know AP and Gifted classes weren't especially challenging, but they did help me. And those social environments shaped me (mostly in bad ways). They shaped me because I was with a bunch of cows who considered themselves intellectually superior to others... and I can't explain that point, how that impacted me, without bringing up the fact that I was in almost all AP classes and surrounded by those people.
> 
> But... I certainly understand how the... I can't say greatest because I really believe everyone is the greatest person, but I've met so many creative people, and not many of them were in the gifted program. That's what I hate about it so much. We were literally "gifted," chosen. Our parents took that seriously. We were special. I tried to explain it to the other day how much I hated that, that having that mentality is so harmful to the kids falsely deemed _not_ special by exclusion... and he didn't get it, lol! _But you guys are special, you do think differently, that's why you were there! _ Like, people actually have is mentality about people with high IQs, and I hate it.
> 
> That's not what I mean about the environment being creative. It wasn't because the students were especially creative or special or "gifted". It wasn't Ant Farm. But we were allowed to do amazing activities, we were allowed to have _fun_, we were encouraged to slack off and go into our imaginations because we were a step away from the regimented classrooms just beside us. The environ,net in gifted is what shaped our creative expression more than anything I think.
> 
> I definitely agree though that most of the more creative and, as you beautifully said, "soulful" people are not in gifted. They do drop out. They aren't necessarily academically successful, some not successful at all... but that doesn't really matter. (And may society someday realize that too. :/)


I'd say many people who dropped out of high school or never went to college are successful in terms of having more real-world experience, usually, and they work hard to build their lives while others may be taking college courses simply to delay jumping into the real world. (This is really what some people do.)

I think it's important to have classes that try to meet a student's needs, and sometimes that means separating them and teaching them more advanced courses. The problem is when these students are treated as inherently better than the rest, but I don't think we should be against the concept of separate courses. I remember having to take "normal" elective courses and feeling like I was sitting on my ass wasting my life. There are also kids who feel just as bored with "normal" courses but are on the hyperactive end and consequently dismissed as problematic kids. 

I have a lot of problems with the school system in general. If I'd had my way, I would have dropped out of high school and I know other people who were in the same boat. I relate to what you're saying about the environment shaping a person in bad ways, but the problem is in the attitude and not in acknowledging differences. The truth is, some kids really do need more challenge, and they really do think differently.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

OvalCat said:


> Rosie was amazing. I should get more books about her. I still have her quotes on my white board.
> My math teacher has shown us that math is competition and people compete for names and everything is misattributed so nothing really matters.


She was too sassy though. She would verbally intimidate French shop owners for fun. 

I've shown you that recent interview where Watson or Crick is a complete ableist misogyinist and tries to discredit Rosie? That interview makes me wanna redistribute a Nobel Prize. 

Competition in math? 

I don't understand math as a field tbh


----------



## Future2Future

OvalCat said:


> I hate the idea of "YOU CAN GET ANYTHING IF YOU TRY HARD ENOUGH." Lol no. That just crushes self esteem. Some people just don't get titration calculations and quantum numbers.


Me too and a lot of people tend to think that way just because they only believe in what they're told. It's the most ignorant, pedant and probably most egotistical sentence ever made.

Imagine if you were a midget doing some shopping and couldn't get something from the top of an aisle and a tall person who wanted the same thing reached it and told you "You can get anything if you try hard enough" without even giving you one. 

Instead these tall people they expect you to build some kind of midget jet-pack (probably named "MidJet®") and tell the same thing to your midget peers. Selfish, isn't it? :suspicion:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I'd say many people who dropped out of high school or never went to college are successful in terms of having more real-world experience, usually, and they work hard to build their lives while others may be taking college courses simply to delay jumping into the real world. (This is really what some people do.)
> 
> I think it's important to have classes that try to meet a student's needs, and sometimes that means separating them and teaching them more advanced courses. The problem is when these students are treated as inherently better than the rest, but I don't think we should be against the concept of separate courses. I remember having to take "normal" elective courses and feeling like I was sitting on my ass wasting my life. There are also kids who feel just as bored with "normal" courses but are on the hyperactive end and consequently dismissed as problematic kids.
> 
> I have a lot of problems with the school system in general. If I'd had my way, I would have dropped out of high school and I know other people who were in the same boat. I relate to what you're saying about the environment shaping a person in bad ways, but the problem is in the attitude and not in acknowledging differences. The truth is, some kids really do need more challenge, and they really do think differently.


My friend keeps trying to teach me this. She has a learning disability, and she went to a special school. But the special school did for her what gifted did for me (more, actually, from what I understand). It helped me excel. It gave her a social network that was hers. It illuminated her. 

But... I'm stubborn. I think we need more inclusion classes with kids of different academic leanings, because I think that teaches tolerance and understanding of people who are naturally different... and I think that is something crucial to have. I know that logically we do need classes that help the kids who need more help and have classes that challenge the kids who need to be challenged... but I think there is a way to make it so that these groups don't alienate people... and until I figure out a way for that to happen, it's hard for me to discuss that in my idea of how school should be. 

I agree about real world experience. That's where my family (one end of it) is, well, I see it as superior in life to me... They are autonomous. They know how the real world works, in this frame. I know a lot about how the world works in the big frame, but... taxes? applications? job hierarchies? house buying? I know nothing. 

But I also think they're creative and brilliant in other ways. They understand the world gorgeously. They aren't celebrated for it, but... It's certainly there nonetheless. We all have brilliance... That's a concept I am still assured of. We all have brilliance, the problem is that some people's brilliance is more applicable and easily seen than others.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> My friend keeps trying to teach me this. She has a learning disability, and she went to a special school. But the special school did for her what gifted did for me (more, actually, from what I understand). It helped me excel. It gave her a social network that was hers. It illuminated her.
> 
> But... I'm stubborn. I think we need more inclusion classes with kids of different academic leanings, because I think that teaches tolerance and understanding of people who are naturally different... and I think that is something crucial to have. I know that logically we do need classes that help the kids who need more help and have classes that challenge the kids who need to be challenged... but I think there is a way to make it so that these groups don't alienate people... and until I figure out a way for that to happen, it's hard for me to discuss that in my idea of how school should be.
> 
> I agree about real world experience. That's where my family (one end of it) is, well, I see it as superior in life to me... They are autonomous. They know how the real world works, in this frame. I know a lot about how the world works in the big frame, but... taxes? applications? job hierarchies? house buying? I know nothing.
> 
> But I also think they're creative and brilliant in other ways. They understand the world gorgeously. They aren't celebrated for it, but... It's certainly there nonetheless. We all have brilliance... That's a concept I am still assured of. We all have brilliance, the problem is that some people's brilliance is more applicable and easily seen than others.


I understand where you're coming from, but some people just have different needs. Like I said, the attitude is the problem, favoring one group over the other, something that holds true in general.


----------



## Greyhart

Wonders of extroversion. Six hours walking around city with friends - hunger, pain, exhaustion? What is that? Back home, half an hour later - EVERYTHING HURTS. Seriously my feet got bloody welts from my shoes I didn't notice it until I got into shower.

Most importantly, LOOK AT THE BABY
















And she cost me half (~$6.8) what I expected to pay for toy of this quality because she was made in Ukraine. Good job, country, good job.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> The class I struggled with the most my Senior year was Chemistry. Regular Chemistry. With the smart freshmen who were getting ahead in science and high school, while I couldn't figure it out.  I'm just a little sad because I know of the people who consider themselves superior because they were in special programming (I've referenced some, but I've come in contact with too many others), and I really hope I don't give off the impression of being like them. I know AP and Gifted classes weren't especially challenging, but they did help me. And those social environments shaped me (mostly in bad ways). They shaped me because I was with a bunch of cows who considered themselves intellectually superior to others... and I can't explain that point, how that impacted me, without bringing up the fact that I was in almost all AP classes and surrounded by those people.
> 
> But... I certainly understand how the... I can't say greatest because I really believe everyone is the greatest person, but I've met so many creative people, and not many of them were in the gifted program. That's what I hate about it so much. We were literally "gifted," chosen. Our parents took that seriously. We were special. I tried to explain it to the other day how much I hated that to my dad, that having that mentality is so harmful to the kids falsely deemed _not_ special by exclusion... and he didn't get it, lol! _But you guys are special, you do think differently, that's why you were there! _ Like, people actually have is mentality about people with high IQs, and I hate it.
> 
> That's not what I mean about the environment being creative. It wasn't because the students were especially creative or special or "gifted". It wasn't Ant Farm. But we were allowed to do amazing activities, we were allowed to have _fun_, we were encouraged to slack off and go into our imaginations because we were a step away from the regimented classrooms just beside us. The environment in gifted is what shaped our creative expression more than anything I think.
> 
> I definitely agree though that most of the more creative and, as you beautifully said, "soulful" people are not in gifted. They do drop out. They aren't necessarily academically successful, some not successful at all... but that doesn't really matter. (And may society someday realize that too. :/)


I kind-of laughing because this isn't my experience with 'gifted' classes at all (I would call it honor roll, think it's the same thing)
I don't think anyone I know took AP classes so seriously where I am. Except...I kinda wonder if my ENTJ friend wouldn't describe them somewhat similarly to you. Could be experience but I feel like Ni has this...specificity that you seem to have expressed here)


----------



## orbit

@shinynotshiny, sorry if you've already explained this but how would you set up the education system


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@Greyhart all I can do atm is picture you walking around town as Olaf with like your friends who I assume are regular people.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> I kind-of laughing because this isn't my experience with 'gifted' classes at all (I would call it honor roll, think it's the same thing)
> I don't think anyone I know took AP classes so seriously where I am. Except...I kinda wonder if my ENTJ friend wouldn't describe them somewhat similarly to you. Could be experience but I feel like Ni has this...specificity that you seem to have expressed here)


It's like... I don't know, maybe it's Ni, but I see the... like, it's not just them being jerks to me, it's them being jerks because they are within this frame which is similar to this frame, and it is the same mentality that caused this... seeing it interconnected to larger systems, I guess, and seeing what this microcosm of high school life is beyond that, what it says about our suburban society...

Basically, yeah. I took this stuff way too seriously. 

But... I do think part of it was the environment. My school was funky for a few reasons. There were things about our development as a school, how we were run, that were just... out of the ordinary. I think that very much led to our half classic social dynamics, and these strong prejudices among us. (And the division of wealth there didn't help much either. 90% of the kids in my AP classes lived in the extremely upper class neighborhood. I'm not sure why the other kids didn't try for the upper level classes as much, but... It makes me so sad. There needs to be better outreach to encourage non wealthy kids to go into those classes.)


----------



## Dangerose

Princess Langwidere said:


> I kind-of laughing because this isn't my experience with 'gifted' classes at all (I would call it honor roll, think it's the same thing)
> I don't think anyone I know took AP classes so seriously where I am. Except...I kinda wonder if my ENTJ friend wouldn't describe them somewhat similarly to you. Could be experience but I feel like Ni has this...specificity that you seem to have expressed here)


I say "friend" but we were supposed to be meeting for brunch today with my ExxP friend but the ExxP cancelled last minute, so I asked her (ENTJ) "Should we still meet though?" and she said "Nah let's reschedule" 

Obviously I'm not actually angry, but come on, I have plans like once every six months, let them count once in a while


----------



## Dangerose

gonna go have brunch all by myself









edit: I was hoping this would be a gif but it's not









this isn't a gif either, is it


----------



## orbit

ElliCat said:


> Hmm I think shallowness is easier to define: all the gossip and talk about superficialities (judging people by the external, especially when no one involved knows very much). Literally staying on the surface. "Depth" to me is simply anything that goes beyond that. I actually find it hard to quantify how deep someone is, so it's more like an absence of shallowness.
> 
> I get the feeling I'm looking at it all back-to-front. But whatever.
> 
> Totally agree.
> 
> I've still got no idea whether I love or hate people. It's probably both at the same time.
> 
> I'm the same. Well I kind of get Ti in theory but when I clash with it in real-life discussions it's like, I have no idea what planet they're even on.


Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Instead of judging how black something is, look if it's pure white. n.n
Hm. Lack of shallowness yes. 

I dislike the idea not being able to hate and love something at the same time. People go "I completely hate my country" and I look at them and I wonder if they are capable of appreciating their homes...? When I mean, my country, I mean America. We have a pretty high standard of living most of the time... I don't know. There's some positive aspects in everything and the idea of completely loathing something makes me uncomfortable. And I don't mean concepts. I think I can hate prejudice completely? Hm. 

I still don't get Ti but it's interesting.


----------



## Greyhart

Pressed Flowers said:


> @Greyhart all I can do atm is picture you walking around town as Olaf with like your friends who I assume are regular people.











Olaf hugging resin dinosaur and grinning.



fair phantom said:


>














Pressed Flowers said:


> I understand it as in... My stories are themselves. I do not create them, I discover them. And in that since, just as I discover them, I only tame them and help them grow as I still discover them.
> 
> That said... I know what will happen in my story. I don't sit down to write and crack my knuckles and see where my imagination takes me. Some side things aren't planned, of course, but everything major is. And I think that's what GRRM means? If that's what he means, then I'm an architect.


Hm, you actually raised a question of interpretation. I took that quote as very "me" way - like remember those plot bunnies for members I wrote here? I have general idea of this sort but then not sure where it will end up leading me. Maybe it's a rose bush, maybe a palm tree.



Pressed Flowers said:


> NGL last night I went to bed very upset
> 
> this discussion got me thinking about some things that really hurt
> 
> like the fact that a bug's life is not recognized as the masterpiece it is
> 
> that bitterness towards other Pixar movies and towards society for not appreciating the magic of a bug's life will potentially come out as I view inside out
> 
> I told my dad about it and he is considering that we all stay home and watch bug's life as a family rather than seeing inside out
> 
> and that won't really help because regardless bug's life will go unappreciated by the world at large.
> 
> but it might help my heart some


Oh my God, fine, I'll watch Bug's Life today! xD Have you seen inside out? I went dinosaurs instead of it.



> Cars and The Incredibles are probably two of my least favorite Pixar movies... yet I was watching them while babysitting the other day, and I realized... Pixar makes a... It's hard to describe... They meld together what is of something. The superheroes. NASCAR. They blend together what it is and make something charming and meaningful.


Nooo, Incredibles are great! I can't believe that Cars got sequel and spin-off of sorts.



Pressed Flowers said:


>


Is it the same guy that signs opening song from Monk? Sounds like him.
@hoopla that grandpa video. I feel for him. I had nobody to play chess with but myself.

Ratatouille is one of my favorite Pixar movie definitely. It has food and animals in it.
@Princess Langwidere for the record I totally support SX first for you.



ProtoCosmos said:


> That's why we loved it but yeah, I've heard pretty bad feedbacks prior watching it and it turned out to be a pleasant surprise...
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike Cars 2 and Planes


SRSLY? SOMEBODY DIDN'T LIKE WALL-ADORABLE-ROBOT-E? Wow. :tongue: Existence of Cars franchise bleeds my dark mechanical soul.



Pressed Flowers said:


> Planes isn't a Puxar movie. That's what's so hilarious to me. Pixar must have realized how limp the Cars world was and decided they wouldn't waste time on _that_ project... Meanwhile I guess Disney didn't have much better to do.
> 
> I don't know. I haven't seen Planes, but I think it was successful. My cousin loves cars. That's his thing. *Cars is the perfect movie for so many kids, and I think that Planes expands that pleasantly for them.* I don't think Planes is a masterpiece, it wasn't done by Pixar, but I imagine it wasn't too terrible.


That's it. I know nothing about kids.



ElliCat said:


> Heh, after I posted I wondered how you'd react.
> 
> I can forgive last minute cancellations if there's an explanation and an apology. I understand making a commitment and then regretting it because you discover you're not in the mood after all. Personally, unless I'm feeling really awful or I'm 100% sure they're not going to take offence, I'll still go, because I gave my word and my word means something. But my standards are a bit lower for others.
> 
> What hurts me is when there's no acknowledgement or apology. It's basically saying to me, "I don't care enough to remember our agreement". I understand forgetting sometimes but honestly, if it's important enough to me, I learned to set reminders on my phone or write notes where I'm guaranteed to see them years ago.
> 
> So yeah. First night of cancellation was okay because he apologised, and one friend was from out of town and these things happen. Second night, not okay, because he had all day to do his thing and he didn't think anything of leaving it until we were supposed to do something else together, and it was pretty crappy to come home to that when I'd been looking forward to it for two long days at work.
> 
> I don't know if that even comes close to satisfying your Ti but I tried.


I used to frequently drop out of commitment because of mental health issues. This is kind of hard to explain to others. "Sorry, I feel like dead today, no energy for you." Since I realized that people can get wrong idea about it (like "I don't care you and want to give you my time") I started being more strict with myself in terms of upholding my promises and if I can't clearly explaining why. It sucks he didn't apologize or warned you, though. I would suspect he forgot that a). he should b). he didn't. At least that would be the cause for me.



> My sisters are both into science. Both F's. One has inferior T.


This. And I just came back from a day with 2 IxFPs both of whom are radio engineers.



> Honestly, it doesn't bother me if it people aren't emotionally engaged in an issue. I appreciate the more logical approach, too. Especially if I can learn something from said rants.


I tend to see logic in most "social causes". Like legalization of same sex marriage - refusing *legal* benefits of this sort of union on basis of moral "ewww, homos" is no logic at all. Could bring more but you get the idea.



OvalCat said:


> At this point I don't think I have the right to judge people's intelligence or talent or deepness or perceptiveness. I don't care anymore. If you contribute something, that's all I care about. Some people work so hard and don't get it and it's tragic
> 
> I hate the idea of "YOU CAN GET ANYTHING IF YOU TRY HARD ENOUGH." Lol no. That just crushes self esteem. Some people just don't get titration calculations and quantum numbers.





ProtoCosmos said:


> Me too and a lot of people tend to think that way just because they only believe in what they're told. It's the most ignorant, pedant and probably most egotistical sentence ever made.
> 
> Imagine if you were a midget doing some shopping and couldn't get something from the top of an aisle and a tall person who wanted the same thing reached it and told you "You can get anything if you try hard enough" without even giving you one.
> 
> Instead these tall people they expect you to build some kind of midget jet-pack (probably named "MidJet®") and tell the same thing to your midget peers. Selfish, isn't it? :suspicion:


"YOU CAN GET ANYTHING IF YOU TRY HARD ENOUGH." I assume it in the context of "I *REALLY* LOVE THIS THING SO IF I TRY HARD ENOUGH I'LL GET IT". It doesn't work with physical stuff like sports, though.  Asthmatic with a poor eyesigh is still and asthmatic with a poor eyesight - no gold medals for me.

If however you are shit at something forcing yourself for ephemeral "you can do it for grades/your future" that'll do more harm than good. Been there, done that, seen other fall into the same pits.


----------



## ElliCat

Princess Langwidere said:


> gonna go have brunch all by myself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: I was hoping this would be a gif but it's not
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this isn't a gif either, is it


:hugs: !!! If I were closer I'd join you.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Huh, I heard Princess Tutu was a semi-deconstruction, though. *NOWHERE* near Madoka levels, but hearing it be called cute when it's apparently a deconstruction is... odd. Then again, Madoka's the only magical girl show I've watched.
> 
> It's not really patience for me, but more the combination of voice acting and music which just sucks me into the scene, especially in tense moments. :happy:


You should watch Utena. Holy deconstruction, batman.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> _Son_ isn't my favourite, but I liked it. I did find the faceoff a bit too supernatural, but I still cared for the characters, the world. The wisdom was still there. I think it wrapped up the series quite nicely. And yes, the heroine was admirable. I liked that she had no "power" but she was so brave.


It seems a lot like Fate/Stay Night in that aspect, seeing someone who has zero talent become so cool. Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting it. I won't spoil one of the major twists for you if you haven't seen the series I mentioned, but it's really quite spectacular. :happy:



fair phantom said:


> Yes I think you should at least give it a try. It is a short read


A short read? When it's a trilogy? Then again, I've read all 7 Artemis Fowl books on *multiple* occasions. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> You should watch Utena. Holy deconstruction, batman.


More than Madoka? Cause that... jesus, that was brutal. Specifically, um, the end to Sayaka's arc. No spoilers, but, yeah.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

): I need to edit.

I forgot hubbub.

I love words meaning excitement over something overhyped; turning the mundane into something sensational. They always sound so silly and frivolous and yet like such a big deal. Self demonstrative. It's like someone was witnessing a scene out of TMZ before TMZ was in business and thought "this is so stupid and yet such a big deal... hoopla... what a silly word... it's fun to say... I bet people would love saying it and therefore create a huge phenomenon out of the word when all I did was make something up. It's not even a real word, but maybe it will become one from through hype. Hmm. Drama is a bunch of hoopla".

Don't quote that as it's not how the word originated (Genuine origination: 1865-70; < French houp-là! command (as to a child) to move, take a step) but it fucking should be.

Edit: Never mind; I shall not edit as I decided to alphabetize and hoopla being the last word is the entire cincher.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> More than Madoka? Cause that... jesus, that was brutal. Specifically, um, the end to Sayaka's arc. No spoilers, but, yeah.


I don't think it is as brutal, but it is disturbing and complex.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> It seems a lot like Fate/Stay Night in that aspect, seeing someone who has zero talent become so cool. Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting it. I won't spoil one of the major twists for you if you haven't seen the series I mentioned, but it's really quite spectacular. :happy:


I need to finish Fate/Zero first, but I plan on watching it. 



> A short read? When it's a trilogy? Then again, I've read all 7 Artemis Fowl books on *multiple* occasions. :wink:


Well I feel that _The Giver_ can work as a standalone story. Let me go check how long each book is (I own the first three).

The Giver : 179
Gathering Blue: 215
Messenger: 169

and it is YA printing so it goes faster than most adult books would at the same number of pages.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

> Huh, I heard Princess Tutu was a semi-deconstruction, though. *NOWHERE* near Madoka levels, but hearing it be called cute when it's apparently a deconstruction is... odd. Then again, Madoka's the only magical girl show I've watched.
> 
> It's not really patience for me, but more the combination of voice acting and music which just sucks me into the scene, especially in tense moments. :happy:


When I say cute I'm talking about the animation style. And it is a deconstruction, but that doesn't stop it from also being cute. Actually I feel it's more of a deconstruction, in a way, even though it's not quite as dark as Madoka. Or maybe "deconstruction" isn't the right word, idk. But it's pretty meta. So I find it similar to Utena (although it's more child-friendly), but the characters are drawn in a more cute and childlike way... to be fair, the main characters are also younger, I think, but Utena is also supposed to be _14_, which I didn't even realize at first despite the school setting, thanks to the way the characters are drawn.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I need to finish Fate/Zero first, but I plan on watching it.


Most people would recommend you read the VN first, but this new series is a good way to jump off from Fate/Zero, as it has a number of callbacks to that series. And it resolves the arcs of the people who survive Fate/Zero. :wink:



fair phantom said:


> Well I feel that _The Giver_ can work as a standalone story. Let me go check how long each book is (I own the first three).
> 
> The Giver : 179
> Gathering Blue: 215
> Messenger: 169
> 
> and it is YA printing so it goes faster than most adult books would at the same number of pages.


Oh, that's neat, then. :laughing: I'll try to check it out, then.


----------



## Barakiel

Shame Spiral said:


> When I say cute I'm talking about the animation style. And it is a deconstruction, but that doesn't stop it from also being cute. Actually I feel it's more of a deconstruction, in a way, even though it's not quite as dark as Madoka. Or maybe "deconstruction" isn't the right word, idk. But it's pretty meta. So I find it similar to Utena (although it's more child-friendly), but the characters are drawn in a more cute and childlike way... to be fair, the main characters are also younger, I think, but Utena is also supposed to be _14_, which I didn't even realize at first despite the school setting, thanks to the way the characters are drawn.


Ah, fair enough. Just looked up Utena on images, and... What? Fourteen? Really? Compare her to how Madoka is drawn, who is also fourteen, and it's *very* odd. I just feel that Madoka's probably the darkest magical girl show... ever. Even with reconstructing the genre with the ending, it's a prime deconstruction. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> It seems a lot like Fate/Stay Night in that aspect, seeing someone who has zero talent become so cool. Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting it. I won't spoil one of the major twists for you if you haven't seen the series I mentioned, but it's really quite spectacular. :happy:
> 
> 
> 
> A short read? When it's a trilogy? Then again, I've read all 7 Artemis Fowl books on *multiple* occasions. :wink:


No... I don't think it's like that. It's not that she was cool. It's the fact that she grew filled with love (and self-actualization imo) even though she didn't have a special supernatural power like all the other protagonists. It's not even really a part of the story that she doesn't have a power, but after reading the three other books you can see that difference.


----------



## fair phantom

Shame Spiral said:


> When I say cute I'm talking about the animation style. And it is a deconstruction, but that doesn't stop it from also being cute. Actually I feel it's more of a deconstruction, in a way, even though it's not quite as dark as Madoka. Or maybe "deconstruction" isn't the right word, idk. But it's pretty meta. So I find it similar to Utena (although it's more child-friendly), but the characters are drawn in a more cute and childlike way... to be fair, the main characters are also younger, I think, but Utena is also supposed to be _14_, which I didn't even realize at first despite the school setting, thanks to the way the characters are drawn.


I was surprised by how much I wound up enjoying _Princess Tutu_, and by how dark it got. Not as dark as Madoka, but it certainly was not what I expected.

I'm just going to pretend I don't have that information about Utena's age.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I need to finish Fate/Zero first, but I plan on watching it.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I feel that _The Giver_ can work as a standalone story. Let me go check how long each book is (I own the first three).
> 
> The Giver : 179
> Gathering Blue: 215
> Messenger: 169
> 
> and it is YA printing so it goes faster than most adult books would at the same number of pages.


Yeah, _The Giver_ works by itself and _Gathering Blue_ works by itself. 

When I reread GB, I was a little blown away. I forgot how cruel it is. Like they literally wanted to kill her for having a disability. That's harsh, and a pretty brash representation of hatred. I think there are some anti ableism messages too... about people with physical disabilities, of course, but I don't think it's stretching too much to expand the message to protecting those with any disability. (Especially considering Gabe was nearly killed for basically being an almost ADHD child.)

Edit: and I was going to make a topic for this but lol while we're all here 

Jonas: INFJ as heck 
Fiona: maybe ESFJ?
Rosemary: gosh she doesn't even appear in the book but I always connected with her so I wanna say Fe/Ni 
Gabe: apparently ExxP baby 

Kira: ISFJ angel princess 
idk are there other characters 

Kira's Friend: I don't know I didn't like this book much 

Claire: at least Fe-dominant, I say Si aux because she seems comfortable within systems and her attachment to her own experiences, but I don't know I don't think her next function is that visible?
Gabe: idk, that ending was pretty Fi. ENFP? Unless the boat thing is inferior Ni...
again were there other characters I have a hard time remembering the details of their personality


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> Tangled is lovely. Sadly it's the Disney movie that comes closest to my life. I get uncomfortable watching it around my family for that reason. My mom got very shy when I expressed how much I enjoyed it.
> 
> And... don't kill me here. The animation of Tangled and Bug's Life seem similar to me... because you can tell they're beginners. I hate the animation in A Bug's Life. It's bulky, and obviously they tried, but it wasn't fluid. I feel the same way about Tangled. Gorgeous story, but the visual aspects don't feel right.
> 
> The prettiest Disney movie, I think, is The Princess and the Frog. The last 2D film. It was a masterpiece, I think because they wanted to make something gorgeous before reigning it in. Tbh I wish they still did 2D, but... I'll get used to 3D eventually, I think. I hope.


I actually liked the animation in Tangled. Frozen too.
All Disney movies from Beauty and the Beast-Princess and the Frog are super ugly imo.
I love the soft colors and milky fairytale world of Snow White and Jungle Book. Sleeping Beauty feels the most truly 'fairytale' to me, there's something _perfect_ about the animation that feels just makes my heart sing. Cinderella was ok.


----------



## fair phantom

Pressed Flowers said:


> Yeah, _The Giver_ works by itself and _Gathering Blue_ works by itself.
> 
> When I reread GB, I was a little blown away. I forgot how cruel it is. Like they literally wanted to kill her for having a disability. That's harsh, and a pretty brash representation of hatred. I think there are some anti ableism messages too... about people with physical disabilities, of course, but I don't think it's stretching too much to expand the message to protecting those with any disability. (Especially considering Gabe was nearly killed for basically being an almost ADHD child.)


I don't think you are stretching. I got an anti-ableism message from both books, it was just stronger in _Gathering Blue_. In _The Giver_ it is less overt, it comes by way of showing the horror of the "perfect" world that includes only "perfect" people.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> No... I don't think it's like that. It's not that she was cool. It's the fact that she grew filled with love (and self-actualization imo) even though she didn't have a special supernatural power like all the other protagonists. It's not even really a part of the story that she doesn't have a power, but after reading the three other books you can see that difference.


I'm pretty sure I came across wrong, so let me detail this specific character for you. Most magi in this universe use their inbuilt mana to supply their spells. Him? He uses his own nervous system, converting his nerves into circuits for him to use. He's completely inept at the start of the story, and his only goal is to stop people from dying unnecessarily. And when you see how far he comes in the three story paths you're given, it's *very* surprising. Compared to people with natural talent, he only had a few special skills, two of them are the easiest things magi can do in this world, and yet, he works at them so much, that you can't help but appreciate his effort. :happy:

Probably different characters we're talking about here, though. :wink:


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> I actually liked the animation in Tangled. Frozen too.
> All Disney movies from Beauty and the Beast-Princess and the Frog are super ugly imo.
> I love the soft colors and milky fairytale world of Snow White and Jungle Book. Sleeping Beauty feels the most truly 'fairytale' to me, there's something _perfect_ about the animation that feels just makes my heart sing. Cinderella was ok.


Well we agree on Sleeping Beauty. ^_^;;;


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> I'm pretty sure I came across wrong, so let me detail this specific character for you. Most magi in this universe use their inbuilt mana to supply their spells. Him? He uses his own nervous system, converting his nerves into circuits for him to use. He's completely inept at the start of the story, and his only goal is to stop people from dying unnecessarily. And when you see how far he comes in the three story paths you're given, it's *very* surprising. Compared to people with natural talent, he only had a few special skills, two of them are the easiest things magi can do in this world, and yet, he works at them so much, that you can't help but appreciate his effort. :happy:
> 
> Probably different characters we're talking about here, though. :wink:


I think different characters, ha


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I think different characters, ha


Ah. Well, sorry for my tangent, then. :wink:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Barakiel said:


> Ah, fair enough. Just looked up Utena on images, and... What? Fourteen? Really? Compare her to how Madoka is drawn, who is also fourteen, and it's very odd. I just feel that Madoka's probably the darkest magical girl show... ever. Even with reconstructing the genre with the ending, it's a prime deconstruction.


Well, it's not just about darkness, but yeah Madoka is pretty brutal. Particularly the first time I watched it. Princess Tutu does get dark as well, but not overwhelmingly so. 




fair phantom said:


> I was surprised by how much I wound up enjoying Princess Tutu, and by how dark it got. Not as dark as Madoka, but it certainly was not what I expected.
> 
> 
> I'm just going to pretend I don't have that information about Utena's age.


Yeah, it is pretty awkward to try to think of her as a 14-year old, and it also makes the sexual elements more creepy to keep that in mind. 



Princess Langwidere said:


> I actually liked the animation in Tangled. Frozen too.
> All Disney movies from Beauty and the Beast-Princess and the Frog are super ugly imo.
> I love the soft colors and milky fairytale world of Snow White and Jungle Book. Sleeping Beauty feels the most truly 'fairytale' to me, there's something _perfect_ about the animation that feels just makes my heart sing. Cinderella was ok.


I didn't like the look of Frozen as much personally, though I do prefer its songs to Tangled's. 

And the animation of Princess and the Frog I thought was pretty nice, but it does sort of... lack something too. It's a bit too polished in a way? Although, Sleeping Beauty is polished too, and I like that one. Such nice stylization. But that reminds me I quite like The Little Mermaid, although the animation seems kind of "messy" to me I also like that in a way because it makes it feel they were experimenting.


----------



## Barakiel

Shame Spiral said:


> Well, it's not just about darkness, but yeah Madoka is pretty brutal. Particularly the first time I watched it. Princess Tutu does get dark as well, but not overwhelmingly so.


Oh, of course not. I mainly watched Madoka for the awesome music, and it didn't disappoint, but now it's one of my favorite series. :laughing:



Shame Spiral said:


> Yeah, it is pretty awkward to try to think of her as a 14-year old, and it also makes the sexual elements more creepy to keep that in mind.


Well, I watched Future Diary, which has much more... explicit... stuff in it for our 14 year old protagonists to be doing. Like having sex during the last arc. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

@Pressed Flowers, I love how much you love the Giver (that sounds so patronizing but it's true) but honestly I hate it so much. So much. It's so...








Like, I should hate it, but it makes me think of like...Lunchables and dirty sponges.
I mean, it has the same effect on me that Lunchables and dirty sponges have. Disdain and a feeling of dislike without a clear reason and a feeling I should get over it.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Barakiel said:


> Oh, of course not. I mainly watched Madoka for the awesome music, and it didn't disappoint, but now it's one of my favorite series. :laughing:


Oh yeah, I have the OST on my phone.



> Well, I watched Future Diary, which has much more... explicit... stuff in it for our 14 year old protagonists to be doing. Like having sex during the last arc. :laughing:


I never watched that. Utena has no _explicit _sex but it sure is implied, heh. At least there's actual reason for the sexual stuff though. I don't actually dislike it, mind.


----------



## fair phantom

Shame Spiral said:


> I didn't like the look of Frozen as much personally, though I do prefer its songs to Tangled's.


I agree. Better music. I liked the costume design, but wasn't charmed by much else aesthetically. I think it probably had better songs than Tangled, but I think Tangled had the better story.



> And the animation of Princess and the Frog I thought was pretty nice, but it does sort of... lack something too. It's a bit too polished in a way? Although, Sleeping Beauty is polished too, and I like that one. Such nice stylization. But that reminds me I quite like The Little Mermaid, although the animation seems kind of "messy" to me I also like that in a way because it makes it feel they were experimenting.


I enjoyed the early parts of _The Princess and the Frog_. I thought they did some interesting things stylistically. But my interest and appreciation decreased once Tiana became a frog tbh.

_The Little Mermaid _looks so different from the films that came before it. I feel like there was a lot more care taken with the film (in all aspects) than Disney had given any of their animated films since Walt Disney's death. If there was roughness it is because they were experimenting. Not in obvious ways, I think, but they were more visionary with that film, more ambitious; they stretched their abilities.


----------



## Barakiel

Shame Spiral said:


> Oh yeah, I have the OST on my phone.


Yuki Kajiura, pretty much the best anime composer I've heard. :wink:



Shame Spiral said:


> I never watched that. Utena has no _explicit _sex but it sure is implied, heh. At least there's actual reason for the sexual stuff though. I don't actually dislike it, mind.


It's... well, it's a guilty pleasure for me, so I can't really say it's _good_. But the last arc really redeemed the show for me. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> @Pressed Flowers, I love how much you love the Giver (that sounds so patronizing but it's true) but honestly I hate it so much. So much. It's so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like, I should hate it, but it makes me think of like...Lunchables and dirty sponges.
> I mean, it has the same effect on me that Lunchables and dirty sponges have. Disdain and a feeling of dislike without a clear reason and a feeling I should get over it.


Are you trying to tell me that you have something against Lunchables. Because I think you're trying to tell me you feel disgust at Lunchables. 

No, it's fine Oswin. I don't like Up, you know? Different people get different things out of different stuff. That's what makes us all beautiful individuals, in a way.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Yuki Kajiura, pretty much the best anime composer I've heard. :wink:


One of the best composers of today, period. :love_heart:


----------



## Dangerose

What are you guys talking about








and just her dress look
















look at the drawings on the stones


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Are you trying to tell me that you have something against Lunchables. Because I think you're trying to tell me you feel disgust at Lunchables.
> 
> No, it's fine Oswin. I don't like Up, you know? Different people get different things out of different stuff. That's what makes us all beautiful individuals, in a way.


I think you got this with my Pixar apathy I posted a while back, but I didn't like Up either. Either way, @Princess Langwidere, it's ok that you don't like The Giver, my tastes are nothing to brag about. :wink:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

fair phantom said:


> I agree. Better music. I liked the costume design, but wasn't charmed by much else aesthetically. I think it probably had better songs than Tangled, but I think Tangled had the better story.


Yeah, I mean, it's detailed and stuff, but just doesn't look that interesting to me. Some nice music though, and I'm not just thinking of Let It Go.



> I enjoyed the early parts of _The Princess and the Frog_. I thought they did some interesting things stylistically. But my interest and appreciation decreased once Tiana became a frog tbh.


I'm not sure how much I liked that either, but I see what you mean.

_



The Little Mermaid

Click to expand...

_


> looks so different from the films that came before I feel like there was a lot more care taken with the film (in all aspects) than Disney had given any of their animated films since Walt Disney's death. *If there was roughness it is because they were experimenting*. Not in obvious ways, I think, but they were more visionary with that film, more ambitious; they stretched their abilities.


Yeah! That's what I'm thinking. Like the animation looks rough compared to their other films, but it's because they were experimenting, and it just adds to the charm.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> One of the best composers of today, period. :love_heart:


Want another example? Hiroyuki Sawano, composer of Aldnoah/Zero, Kill La Kill and Guilty Crown. This guy makes the greatest orchestral soundtracks, I swear. :wink:


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> What are you guys talking about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and just her dress look
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> look at the drawings on the stones


Oh I loved the look of Rapunzel's tower. Great attention to detail.

This didn't win me over though. And now I'm reminded of how Anna, Elsa, and Rapunzel all basically have the same face.

Every Female Character in Every Disney/Pixar Animated Movie From the Past Decade Basically Has the Same Face | GOOD

(warning: flashing gif)


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> Are you trying to tell me that you have something against Lunchables. Because I think you're trying to tell me you feel disgust at Lunchables.
> 
> No, it's fine Oswin. I don't like Up, you know? Different people get different things out of different stuff. That's what makes us all beautiful individuals, in a way.











Lunchables are the actual worst.
To be fair I never ate one. They just look so, so disgusting. Not real food at all.
I should have said canned cheese.
Quite true) @Barakiel I think it's my tastes that are lacking here. By all accounts The Giver is a good book. It has a medal on the cover. People coo over it. I just happen to hate it.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Quite true) @Barakiel I think it's my tastes that are lacking here. By all accounts The Giver is a good book. It has a medal on the cover. People coo over it. I just happen to hate it.


Eh, does anyone love _every _classic book?


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> Lunchables are the actual worst.
> To be fair I never ate one. They just look so, so disgusting. Not real food at all.
> I should have said canned cheese.
> Quite true) @Barakiel I think it's my tastes that are lacking here. By all accounts The Giver is a good book. It has a medal on the cover. People coo over it. I just happen to hate it.


People coo over Fifty Shades of Grey and Twilight too, and yet we can unanimously agree that they are *not* good. All depends on your reasons why you don't like them. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> Oh I loved the look of Rapunzel's tower. Great attention to detail.
> 
> This didn't win me over though. And now I'm reminded of how Anna, Elsa, and Rapunzel all basically have the same face.
> 
> Every Female Character in Every Disney/Pixar Animated Movie From the Past Decade Basically Has the Same Face | GOOD
> 
> (warning: flashing gif)


Tracing the nose and chin make vaguely similar face shapes is not convincing to me.
Anna and Elsa don't look like Rapunzel because Anna and Elsa look kinda like mice and Rapunzel does not. She looks...possibly like a Golden Retriever. Her facial features are much more fluid and gentler.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

@Shame Spiral

DON BLUTH! Sending my nerd love to you.


* *




Don Bluth is 3000000 times better than Disney. I'm going to piss people off. I don't care.

....Unfortunately, The Little Mermaid came out which pulled Disney out of a dark age, and consequently gave Bluth competition. He decided to copy Disney, which killed everything. Land Before Time probably still churns out sequels though. I don't really care because they're all money making trash. How many do we need? ...They even made a Cartoon Network series. -_- That would be fine if it actually had artistic merit rather than attempting to monetize a classic. It fit the latter category.

I think All Dogs go to Heaven is my favorite (actually no; probably Secret of Nihm, but I cannot select favorites). I have a strange fascination with orphanages and orphans and general, and of course I admire the 1930's setting and the allusions to being sent to Hell, so it's right up my alley.






Seriously, that's even darker than Frollo. 

It's not the darkness though. There was so much... humanity to Don Bluth. I like Disney like everyone else (Minus Shiny) but let's be honest... the characters are cardboard cut outs. People disagree with me on this, but even when they twist the character around, it still feels like an archetype. Every Disney Princess was the same... then we had Ariel, who completely broke ground... and now, despite the nuances, it's quite clear all the princesses are modeled off of Ariel (which was actually a complaint about the protagonist of Brave). They also seem to focus on well loved clichés, the world/environment, and feel good fuzziness. This is fine. 

...However, what I loved about Bluth is the focus was not on the environment or world created, or moving the audience to make the franchise well received and iconic. The characters were all unique, three dimensional and well developed. So much focus on their tragedy, fear, pain, anger and happiness. So many allusions and allegories. There was no focus on a happy ending. Many were bittersweet. Were there arching themes throughout his work? Sure. He seemed to love depicting history for example. He also liked bittersweet endings and anamorphic animals. There is however, a difference between cliché and artistic style. His was just style. It was always so innovative... and extremely true to human life. When it moved you, it was natural, and not a distinctive strategy.

This scene:






Yeah, it is a cliché. We've certainly seen this before. However... it is *so* fleshed out. There is a huge climax before the gradual transition of the mother's death, and it is *extremely* detailed. That dinosaur is terrifying. Huge, sharp teeth and a dramatic roar. Those rocks are terrifying. You can hear them crumble and rumble, and they're flying at your face! All the screams... the impact on the community... you feel like you're there.

Now Littlefoot is looking for his mother. He's alone... abandoned.... he finds her... he listens to her last words of sincerity... he cries. It's horrific. And part of why it's so horrific? The detail. The sounds, the animation, the emotion. It's meticulous. Every T is crossed and every I is dotted. It doesn't get any better than that.

Now compare to Mufasa's death. This is so similar you could accuse them of ripping off Bluth:






Yeah... it's sad and emotionally gripping. However... what makes this so horrific is Scar deliberately killed Mufasa, and you watch him do it. It's not what's actually happening... it's not the act of being trampled... but the fact that scar is a villain and killed his own brother and Mufasa is a leader and the protagonist is his son. LBT didn't need that sort of ploy... they just needed to depict what was actually happening in order to horrify you. And then... just like LBT, Simba is lost, it's all dark and gloomy.... he finds his parent, he's dead, he's crying, next to his corpse. Yes, it's sad. But.... it was done so much slower in LBT. It felt more natural... more human, because of the buildup. It's so fast with Simba. And then.... fucking Timon and Pumba ruin the tone of the movie, and it's so obvious what they are doing. OMG. THIS IS SAD. HEY, IT'S OK NOW. THESE COMIC RELIEFS ARE FUNNY! 

It doesn't work like that in the real world. People don't just bump into you and rescue you... Little Foot was alone. Truly alone. Wandering from family to family, and in deep grief. The movie focused on that. They played it out. They didn't just depict Little Foot crying and then all of a sudden... everything is happy. The grief was prolonged. It felt much more natural! Disney feels like it contains cue cards somewhere. You don't get the feeling that Bluth is attempting to draw emotions out of you at all... they flow when you're least anticipating it. You know Disney wants you to cry... you forget Bluth is trying to horrify you because of how horrifying it all genuinely is.

Even when Bluth used clichés... they were given a new life. I usually feel like there is no new life given to Disney's clichés (Aside from Ariel... yeah whiny teen brat is not new... but they gave it a new angle). Bluth rarely subjected himself to such an issue.

Disney is good at what it does.... but the emotional experience Bluth evoked just does not compare.

Unless we're discussing his rip-offs. Then it does.


----------



## Dangerose

(Never really cared about the death scenes. I was just embarrassed by the Land Before Time one. But I loved the movie. Especially the end when they get to the Promised Land or whatever. And the volcano bit. And basically everything)


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Princess Langwidere said:


> (Never really cared about the death scenes. I was just embarrassed by the Land Before Time one. But I loved the movie. Especially the end when they get to the Promised Land or whatever. And the volcano bit. And basically everything)


....Honestly I found that scene 3000 times more traumatic than Bambi and Simba. Not that those scenes didn't make me sad.... BUT GOOD LORD.

I still fucking cry. And I rarely cry during movies. Just... Just... what a strong relationship. And it was so highlighted here. The bond and the grief is much more emphasized than it is in say, The Lion King.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Tracing the nose and chin make vaguely similar face shapes is not convincing to me.
> Anna and Elsa don't look like Rapunzel because Anna and Elsa look kinda like mice and Rapunzel does not. She looks...possibly like a Golden Retriever. Her facial features are much more fluid and gentler.


It's fine if you don't see the same things I do. I think maybe their faces were animated differently to show personality. but their features look the same to me—give or take some freckles and a change in colouring. :/

I don't know what it is. I can learn to enjoy these films for what they are, but 3D animation...particularly when it involves people, winds up feeling artificial, impersonal, almost...plastic? Like they are toys. That's just how I feel. Maybe some day, as the technology advances, I'll feel differently)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@_hoopla_
Haha, I actually don't mind Timon and Puumba too much, even now. I mean, Simba is trying to run away from his guilt and responsibilities, so it makes sense for him to run into these dumb comic relief characters, and live with them until his past/Nala finally comes back to him. Might have worked better if they didn't keep their presence in the movie after that though, I don't know. 

But yeah, Don Bluth's animation is just something special.

Edit: Actually, I'm not sure if there were any death scenes that really messed with me as a kid, though I remember finding the scene where they're about to kill John Smith in Pocahontas scary. xD Now I find the scene kinda arousing, but it helps that I know he's not really going to die (and speaking of, Pocahontas isn't my favorite movie, but _that _artstyle is gorgeous).


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Want another example? Hiroyuki Sawano, composer of Aldnoah/Zero, Kill La Kill and Guilty Crown. This guy makes the greatest orchestral soundtracks, I swear. :wink:


I have a friend who is addicted to the Kill La Kill soundtrack.


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> ....Honestly I found that scene 3000 times more traumatic than Bambi and Simba. Not that those scenes didn't make me sad.... BUT GOOD LORD.
> 
> I still fucking cry. And I rarely cry during movies. Just... Just... what a strong relationship. And it was so highlighted here. The bond and the grief is much more emphasized than it is in say, The Lion King.


so many dead parents.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I have a friend who is addicted to the Kill La Kill soundtrack.


I can see why, the soundtrack is amazing. :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> I can see why, the soundtrack is amazing. :laughing:


They don't have it on YouTube


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> They don't have it on YouTube


If you're planning on watching it, there's a *lot* of fanservice, be warned. :laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Barakiel said:


> If you're planning on watching it, there's a *lot* of fanservice, be warned. :laughing:


Oh yeah, I was put off checking out that show, because it looked a bit too... trashy.^^;


----------



## Barakiel

Shame Spiral said:


> Oh yeah, I was put off checking out that show, because it looked a bit too... trashy.^^;


I enjoyed it perfectly well, although I've found that I'm resistant to fanservice, since I've experienced way too much of it. :laughing: It's more a guilty pleasure, I will admit, although I do have some major gripes with it. :wink:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Shame Spiral said:


> @_hoopla_
> Haha, I actually don't mind Timon and Puumba too much, even now. I mean, Simba is trying to run away from his guilt and responsibilities, so it makes sense for him to run into these dumb comic relief characters, and live with them until his past/Nala finally comes back to him. Might have worked better if they didn't keep their presence in the movie after that though, I don't know.
> 
> But yeah, Don Bluth's animation is just something special.
> 
> Edit: Actually, I'm not sure if there were any death scenes that really messed with me as a kid, though I remember finding the scene where they're about to kill John Smith in Pocahontas scary. xD Now I find the scene kinda arousing, but it helps that I know he's not really going to die (and speaking of, Pocahontas isn't my favorite movie, but _that _artstyle is gorgeous).


I liked Timon and Pumba as a kid... but they feel so emotionally manipulative to me now. I don't care if they symbolized Simba running away from responsibilities. You forget about the grief in a matter of minutes. 

Nothing saved Little Foot. It was a huge transition for him to make peace. They fleshed that grief out, which makes it all the more gripping. 

And, as I mentioned in the edit... the trampling is not what's horrifying, but the fact that Mufasa's brother murdered him and Simba witnessed it. They didn't take advantage of the animation at all, like they did with TLBT. It's so cheap in comparison. 

Lol arousing? Tbh I didn't like the animation in Pocahontas at all (W/ the exception of Colors of the Wind... only good part of the film)... and I thought the character designs were poorly drawn. I mean.... her *eyes.* **cringe** That's just me though.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

What is fan service?


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> What is fan service?


I feel impressed and disappointed that you don't know of it yet. :wink:

Basically, it follows the creed of sex sells. Free! is a good example of a male variant. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> I feel impressed and disappointed that you don't know of it yet. :wink:
> 
> Basically, it follows the creed of sex sells. Free! is a good example of a male variant. :happy:


I think I know, but I like to know in other people's own words. (I'm sure there's way too many definitions for it on Urban Dictionary.)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

hoopla said:


> I liked Timon and Pumba as a kid... but they feel so emotionally manipulative to me now. I don't care if they symbolized Simba running away from responsibilities. You forget about the grief in a matter of minutes.


Eh true, I suppose they still could have done that better. And are we _really _supposed to believe Simba grew up solely on eating bugs? Well, I guess I did as a kid, but now I think either he would have learned that he'd still need to hunt soon enough, or he would have some major nourishment issues. Or whatever. 



> Lol arousing? Tbh I didn't like the animation in Pocahontas at all (W/ the exception of Colors of the Wind... only good part of the film)... and I thought the character designs were poorly drawn. I mean.... her *eyes.* **cringe** That's just me though.


Yes. >_> I didn't necessarily enjoy the movie much overall, but the visuals look pretty nice to me. And it's kind of interesting, because I think it's a more Se-Ni movie (for Disney), compared to most Disney movies being more Ne-Si/Si-Ne.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Pressed Flowers said:


> What is fan service?


Fanservice - TV Tropes

My personal favorite:

Fan Disservice - TV Tropes

This:


* *












Used to be the main image. I wish it still was.

This is even better:











The looks on their faces! It really emphasizes the horror. Even better... we see one angle of the horror... but we know the true horror evoking such a reaction. Two sides of disservice... one which we can only imagine.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I think I know, but I like to know in other people's own words. (I'm sure there's way too many definitions for it on Urban Dictionary.)


You know those comic book superheroines and their costumes? Basically that in animated form, though some shows like to push it to the extreme. :laughing:

Most shows have fanservice in some regard, it's an inevitability, but apparently Kill La Kill is excessive. Also, it's a magical girl show. Somehow. :wink:


----------



## Immolate

@_hoopla_



:hopelessness:


*[Edit] *you added a spoiler cut

There was no need, I hope you didn't take it that way. I was just... slightly disturbed :very_drunk:


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> You know those comic book superheroines and their costumes? Basically that in animated form, though some shows like to push it to the extreme. :laughing:
> 
> Most shows have fanservice in some regard, it's an inevitability, but apparently Kill La Kill is excessive. Also, it's a magical girl show. Somehow. :wink:


Kill La Kill is so over-the-top with fanservice* that I think it stops being fanservice. It becomes a parody of fanservice. It's hilarious.

*and everything else


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Kill La Kill is so over-the-top with fanservice* that I think it stops being fanservice. It becomes a parody of fanservice. It's hilarious.
> 
> *and everything else


It's like Gurren Lagann plus magical girl concept. And as awesome as that sounds. :laughing:


----------



## fair phantom

@hoopla well i feel ignorant...what was wrong with Pocahontas' eyes? She was modeled after her VA: 










There were a lot of problems with that movie and its treatment of history, but I thought it was _gorgeous_ and Colors of the Wind is just....*is silenced by emotion*


----------



## Pressed Flowers

/whispers/ I actually don't love Colors of the Wind. 

It's so specific. The song seems tied to the story. It's difficult to relate it elsewhere. 

But I _love_ Savages. It is such a wonderful manifestation of humanity's problem. We hate one another, which blinds us to the truth of the humanity we each have. Gorgeous. Like, I don't know, that song is just so powerful and illuminating. I hope people think about it as much as I do in that way and grow impacted by it. 

Also, Pocahontas' line - _"I don't know what I can do, still I know I've got to try!" _ For obvious reasons, that's like my life line. It's tattooed on my soul. It's what my life is all about, but it's nice to have sung words to press it forward.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

On Disney songs, I have an extremely difficult time deciding my favorite love song. It's tied between these two











I love the first one more... but that's more about a crush than an actually mutual experience of love. (Of course that one has always appealed to me more, lol. It's the only one I can relate to.) The second one is about... love. Love that must be agape, since he is dying for her and she of course nearly dies to save him.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Am I the only person who finds Kristoff absolutely repulsive 

Hans has a better personality (at his core, minus the murderous and manipulative tendencies) and a nicer face.


----------



## Dangerose

I think Mulan is also a bit Si because it's about taking her father's place, finding her role in life, upholding the family honor.
But overall more Se


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only person who finds Kristoff absolutely repulsive
> 
> Hans has a better personality (at his core, minus the murderous and manipulative tendencies) and a nicer face.


Well, there was one loose end with the troll elder that I wanted to be tied up, but ultimately, he wasn't bad. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I'm not good at discerning functions in stories... but I suppose so? Like @hoopla said, it seems more Se - take action. I can see the Ni in Pocahontas, because it's so _fluid_, it feels like it's about the interconnectedness of the universe, the interconnectedness deep down (while I imagine Si/Ne would be about archetypes, like Frozen, or whimsical and dreamy but settled, like BATB), but Mulan... It seems more in-the-moment things than anything. Deep down it is about Mulan's taking of her place, changing the course of the future... but that's not as apparent as it is in Pocahontas, I don't think.


It just seems to me like the type of story where nature is meant to triumph over industrialism, hence Ni looking past Se opportunism. Or maybe I'm mistaking Mulan for Pocohontas here. I probably am.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I actually think Inside Out was very Si. It's about... what's in _you_, what makes you you. The memories do that, the memories are a big part of that... but I think it represents Si because it shows what the memories are - pieces of her. I think that's why Si loves memories as well. They show them themselves, through which they can better approach the world. 

Perhaps? 

(I think Riley is obviously ENFP, I just thought the mind aspect of it, especially in regards to how her memories define her personality, was fairly Si.)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only person who finds Kristoff absolutely repulsive
> 
> Hans has a better personality (at his core, minus the murderous and manipulative tendencies) and a nicer face.


The manipulative tendencies are kind of a big part, though. >_>

But I agree he's an attractive character.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only person who finds Kristoff absolutely repulsive
> 
> *Hans has a better personality (at his core, minus the murderous and manipulative tendencies)* and a nicer face.












I actually like Kristoff. I didn't think I would, but I do. Why are you holding back from such a man? Is it the grumpy way he talks?

edit: Hans' face actually annoys me. Kristoff's cute. Not handsome, but cute


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> It just seems to me like the type of story where nature is meant to triumph over industrialism, hence Ni looking past Se opportunism. Or maybe I'm mistaking Mulan for Pocohontas here. I probably am.


Yeaaah. The nature thing is Pocahontas.



Pressed Flowers said:


> Am I the only person who finds Kristoff absolutely repulsive
> 
> Hans has a better personality (at his core, minus the murderous and manipulative tendencies) and a nicer face.


Honestly, I barely remember Kristoff's personality. I've only seen _Frozen_ once. ^^;;;


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Shame Spiral said:


> The manipulative tendencies are kind of a big part, though. >_>
> 
> But I agree he's an attractive character.


I don't see how...? I believe that at our cores we are love, that love illuminates our true selves, and I think that there toxic qualities such as manipulation are nonexistent. That's what I'm referring to when I talk of what I believe would be his core personality ^^


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I don't see how...? I believe that at our cores we are love, that love illuminates our true selves, and I think that there toxic qualities such as manipulation are nonexistent. That's what I'm referring to when I talk of what I believe would be his core personality ^^


Hans is an unexplored character, he said himself that his brothers treated him like he never existed, perhaps that's justification enough? I find it funny how you consider Kristoff repulsive in comparison, though. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> Yeaaah. The nature thing is Pocahontas.


Oh, right then, was mistaken again. :laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Pressed Flowers said:


> I don't see how...? I believe that at our cores we are love, that love illuminates our true selves, and I think that there toxic qualities such as manipulation are nonexistent. That's what I'm referring to when I talk of what I believe would be his core personality ^^


Perhaps so, but wouldn't that be true of everyone then? Of course, deep down is probably someone who wants love and I like to think he's not beyond redemption, but he still chooses to manipulate and hurt people.

Why do you find Kristoph more repulsive? Not that I find him too attractive myself, but you know. Doesn't he seem to have a good core


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> I don't see how...? I believe that at our cores we are love, that love illuminates our true selves, and I think that there toxic qualities such as manipulation are nonexistent. That's what I'm referring to when I talk of what I believe would be his core personality ^^


...if...?

I don't quite comprehend why Hans' core personality would be superior to Kristoff's...
...since Kristoff's outer personality is clearly superior to Han's, instanced in the way he chooses to save Anna instead of leading her on breaking her heart leaving her to die and attempting to kill her sister

i feel like there may be a tiny difference


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Hans is an unexplored character, he said himself that his brothers treated him like he never existed, perhaps that's justification enough? I find it funny how you consider Kristoff repulsive in comparison, though. :wink:


I actually have a hard time recognizing poor and good character development. A character is a character is a character to me. They all have their cores. I pick up on them almost as soon as they jump in. With main chatacter it almost gets annoying after a while. Like, okay, I get you're orange. I see all the Orange. I get it. Now go talk to that yellow-blue side character that isn't as probed as you.

In that way, I suppose I sense character development. But it's different, because I falsely have this idea I know the character even when they aren't actually /there/ I guess. It's the same with people though, I see them for two minutes and already get this idea I know better than they do about themselves (sometimes)


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh, and I don't mean that Hans' core personality would be superior to Kristoff's. No one's core personality is superior to any other person's. It's just that I happen to think I could tolerate Hans, while Kristoff's... The idea of being with him for any more than a few hours makes me /eek/

Ironically, he's probably the Disney character most like my undying lifelong crush. As I've said before, my attraction to that boy is utterly irrational.

Also, I don't have these opinions about real people. Romantically, sure, but I don't even know what it is to like or dislike someone. I try to like everyone, and I only really dislike people who I deem unkind. Irl of course I would value Kristoff and Hans equally (and Kristoff actually over Hans, since Hand would probably be a butthole and Kristoff would always just be a kind guy)


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I actually have a hard time recognizing poor and good character development. A character is a character is a character to me. They all have their cores. I pick up on them almost as soon as they jump in. With main chatacter it almost gets annoying after a while. Like, okay, I get you're orange. I see all the Orange. I get it. Now go talk to that yellow-blue side character that isn't as probed as you.
> 
> In that way, I suppose I sense character development. But it's different, because I falsely have this idea I know the character even when they aren't actually /there/ I guess. It's the same with people though, I see them for two minutes and already get this idea I know better than they do about themselves (sometimes)


Character development is the thing I look for in characters, it's one of the reasons I'll watch a show from beginning to end. Characters aren't static, neither are people, they change, surpass their limits, and grow. It's one of the rare joys to see that happen. :happy:

The thing I wanted answered in Frozen was the troll elder. I wanted someone to call him out for provoking Elsa into her isolation. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> Oh, and I don't mean that Hans' core personality would be superior to Kristoff's. No one's core personality is superior to any other person's. It's just that I happen to think I could tolerate Hans, while Kristoff's... The idea of being with him for any more than a few hours makes me /eek/
> 
> Ironically, he's probably the Disney character most like my undying lifelong crush. As I've said before, my attraction to that boy is utterly irrational.
> 
> Also, I don't have these opinions about real people. Romantically, sure, but I don't even know what it is to like or dislike someone. I try to like everyone, and I only really dislike people who I deem unkind. Irl of course I would value Kristoff and Hans equally (and Kristoff actually over Hans, since Hand would probably be a butthole and Kristoff would always just be a kind guy)


Perhaps that explains it)
I think I would marry Kristoff)
Prince Phillip though above all other Disney men)
If I was a tiger then Sherikhan, but I'm not


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Character development is the thing I look for in characters, it's one of the reasons I'll watch a show from beginning to end. Characters aren't static, neither are people, they change, surpass their limits, and grow. It's one of the rare joys to see that happen. :happy:
> 
> The thing I wanted answered in Frozen was the troll elder. I wanted someone to call him out for provoking Elsa into her isolation. :wink:


Maybe he was senile.
or maybe his words were wildly misinterpreted.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Perhaps that explains it)
> I think I would marry Kristoff)
> Prince Phillip though above all other Disney men)
> If I was a tiger then Sherikhan, but I'm not


Prince Phillip or Eugene/Flynn for me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Princess Langwidere said:


> Perhaps that explains it)
> I think I would marry Kristoff)
> Prince Phillip though above all other Disney men)
> If I was a tiger then Sherikhan, but I'm not


Prince Eric is the most attractive Disney Prince. 

Naveen _may_ be cuter, but Eric is still much sweeter which I think outweighs it all. 

I would marry Eric like faster than I would marry the Kristoff guy I always say I would marry in an instant. Forget Vegas, we could go to the local courthouse.


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> Disney makes me happy <3
> 
> Guys am I an ESFJ or not? Getting tired of this.


I think you are probably.


----------



## Adena

Princess Langwidere said:


> I think you are probably.


lol most likely I think.

If one day I'm gonna wake up and find out that I'm an ENTP I'm gonna be super pissed.

ALSO

it makes super sense because math makes super super stressed out and nervous to the extreme because my Ti is suckish? That makes sense?


----------



## Barakiel

Gray Romantic said:


> Disney makes me happy <3
> 
> Guys am I an ESFJ or not? Getting tired of this.


Enjoy the confusion. :laughing:


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> Here are the actors I would cast as Disney princesses, if I had a time machine and such:
> Snow White:
> 
> 
> Aurora:
> Susan Hampshire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cinderella:
> Romy Schneider
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Belle:
> Jenna Coleman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ariel:
> Audrey Tatou
> Audrey Tatou (I guess)
> [IMG]http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Audrey-Tautou-audrey-tautou-678798_1602_1920.jpg
> 
> Jasmine:
> Sati Kazanova
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tiana:
> Megalyn Echikunwoke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rapunzel:
> Alicia Silverstone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elsa:
> Elena Korikova
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anna:
> Ellie Kemper I guess


Yes, because we need live action Disney fairy-tale movies. Right when people were complaining about 3D animation being _too_ drastic. :dry:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Barakiel said:


> Responding to me while upset isn't quite the best idea, as @Pressed Flowers knows. :wink:
> 
> You're kind of missing the point of why the fairy tale stories you mentioned are like that, to be relatable. Why do Disney stories need to be like how you deem them to be? Purity is pointless if there is no substance to it. And as for Disney needing a sky flavor to it, well, I need your answer as to why you think sky is the appropriate flavor for these stories.


You are totally an Se imo.

lol.

Honestly the more I interact with @Princess Langwidere the more I believe she is ISFJ and the more I wonder if maybe I'm an ESFJ... I know you said I sound like Ne-Si... but if you notice from my descriptions I pay a lot of attention to detail so... 

it's just details in my environment I miss because I'm so out of sync with it. But during films and stuff yeah...

....I just wonder if maybe the Ne is too high for Si dominate? bleh. Every ISFJ says that.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Princess Langwidere said:


> Guess it's just my state then; Talented and Gifted)


My 'gifted program' was called G.A.T.E.

And then I was supposed to attend a 'Rapid Learning' school. 

Not sure if y'all had these...?


----------



## Adena

I think Emma Watson would be a lovely Belle as well!









And I'm sorry, but Amanda Seyfried is the perfect Rapunzel









Oh! And unrelated, but Taylor Swift always reminded me of Honey Lemon from Big Hero 6:


----------



## Barakiel

hoopla said:


> You are totally an Se imo.
> 
> lol.
> 
> Honestly the more I interact with @Princess Langwidere the more I believe she is ISFJ and the more I wonder if maybe I'm an ESFJ... I know you said I sound like Ne-Si... but if you notice from my descriptions I pay a lot of attention to detail so...
> 
> it's just details in my environment I miss because I'm so out of sync with it. But during films and stuff yeah...
> 
> ....I just wonder if maybe the Ne is too high for Si dominate? bleh. Every ISFJ says that.


I'll refer back to this whenever I feel I'm Ne, then. :wink:

I'm pretty sure @Princess Langwidere is an SFJ of some kind, her opinions annoy me in the same way theirs usually do. You... I'm still not sure. You _could_ be ESFJ, but I'm neither denying nor affirming anything. :happy:


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Gray Romantic said:


> Oh! And unrelated, but Taylor Swift always reminded me of Honey Lemon from Big Hero 6:


I've never seen the film, but she's typed as an ESFJ... and Taylor Swift most definitely is one, so lol.


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Then again, Madoka's the only magical girl show I've watched.


How come you don't know about Card Captor Sakura or even Sailor Moon :shocked:



hoopla said:


> Don't quote that as it's not how the word originated (Genuine origination: 1865-70; < French houp-là! command (as to a child) to move, take a step) but it fucking should be.


I knew it ! :tongue:



Princess Langwidere said:


> Lunchables are the actual worst.



* *




This guy disagrees










Barakiel said:


> @_hoopla_, with all your tangents on Disney being lazy, I get the feeling you'd be a big fan of the stuff Studio Ghibli puts out. Specifically, Howl's Moving Castle. :happy:


Princess Mononoke, Castle in The Sky, Tororo... :happy: Damn, I even have a collector's edition DVD of Kiki's Delivery Service a with piece of a Japanese print.


* *





Tehee ! :3


----------



## Persephone Soul

PsychElGambino said:


> I have a theory as to why SPs are more popular than FJs [especially NFJs]. Because 90% of people on Typology websites go by stereotypes [in regards to functions, enneagrams, sociotypes, loops, inferior functions, instinctual variants etc] Hardly ever goes outside the box, pieces everything together, looks into each function thoroughly and finds their best fit past the advice they are given on their own typing threads. You know? Everyone's an onion. They have many layers to them. Everyone has more under the surface than above it. These questionnaires can be more harmful than helpful in the long one. Worse than the first impressions in job interviews.


I totally agree. I was trying to kind of say this quite a few pages ago. The onion thing....yep... layers.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@hoopla
o: Yeah, your Si seems good to me from what I've seen of you.


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> How come you don't know about Card Captor Sakura or even Sailor Moon :shocked:


Oh, I know about them, I just haven't seen them. There is a difference. :wink: Though I suppose Kill La Kill might count, if you stretch the definition.



ProtoCosmos said:


> Princess Mononoke, Castle in The Sky, Tororo... :happy: Damn, I even have a collector's edition DVD of Kiki's Delivery Service a with piece of a Japanese print.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehee ! :3


Is it bad I don't really like Ghibli movies? Though the ones I do, are pretty good. I actually thought Wolf Children was a Ghibli movie before I checked, since it looks that similar. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Responding to me while upset isn't quite the best idea, as @Pressed Flowers knows. :wink:
> 
> You're kind of missing the point of why the fairy tale stories you mentioned are like that, to be relatable. Why do Disney stories need to be like how you deem them to be? Purity is pointless if there is no substance to it. And as for Disney needing a sky flavor to it, well, I need your answer as to why you think sky is the appropriate flavor for these stories.


No, you are missing the point about what legend is. (You're not alone)
Let's be clear; sky is not a flavor. Cotton candy is a flavor and I'm not talking about cotton candy. Sky is a state of being. 
If you have ever read Joseph Campbell, you will know about the monomyth, the 'hero of a thousand faces'. If you have taken a comparative religion class, you will know that every culture has a creation myth, a flood myth, etc. Maybe I shouldn't have said sky. Maybe I should have said sea. Our fairytales are relics from the cosmic ocean. They are our connections to the unconscious, the unsaid, the primeval world, the collective grumpling of the world.
(link to 'cosmic ocean' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ocean but of course I mean it somewhat more metaphorically than this, though that is a metaphor as well)

The problem with Joseph Campbell (he tried to address it but it was not his focus) is that he was writing the monomyth of man, male man. Man is Odysseus, is Gilgamesh, is Harry Potter, is Robin Hood, is King Arthur. There is a shared thread but Woman is different. Fairytales are what women passed down to their children, what nursemaids told their charges, what grandmothers told their granddaughters. Campbell tried to address the feminine side of the sky -- the lunar half -- but I think ultimately he was seeing it from a 'sunny' perspective and he presented the feminine tales more or less from a masculine perspective -- Sleeping Beauty is the Matchless Maiden whom the hero must awake. (I like Disney's Sleeping Beauty because it does have a strong male character who is a good role model for boys) But I think Sleeping Beauty is a powerful feminine myth as well. Cinderella is more or less constructed according to Christian principes; it is easy enough to see that Prince Charming is the Kingdom of Heaven (which I do believe he is in most stories but I expect Cinderella was written after Christianity). I don't think it is as potent a symbol as Beauty and the Beast or Sleeping Beauty, even Snow White, it is a little more artificial, wish-fulfillment based, but Disney made it full of sky, you still see a pure heroine who overcomes adversity, who finds a star in the darkness, and so forth. That is entirely missing from The Little Mermaid, Aladdin. They are just stories. Tales. They're fine (except for how Ariel makes a deal with the devil and gets off scot-free) but they lack that mythic potency that children need to learn what good and evil are. Children understand myth, better than adults often, because they are more in tune with their subconscious (even than their conscious) but they need the reinforcement, they cannot learn to think only in numbers and look only at the earth, they must become friends and aspirants to the sky, they must learn how to visit the sea...


----------



## Adena

hoopla said:


> I've never seen the film, but she's typed as an ESFJ... and Taylor Swift most definitely is one, so lol.


No wonder she was my favorite singer growing up <3


----------



## galactic collision

I know that you guys had this conversation a long time ago, but I just want to say that I personally think Tangled had beautiful animation. And was beautiful in general. The color scheme! Her hair! The glowing lights!!! 

There's a shot in "When Will My Life Begin?" where she's about to paint, and she opens up her paintbox and you can see each place the paintbrush lightly stroked on the box or where the paint kind of smudged or splattered

Sorry if this makes no sense, I'm kind of high right now. I love Tangled. Good night


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Is it bad I don't really like Ghibli movies? Though the ones I do, are pretty good. I actually thought Wolf Children was a Ghibli movie before I checked, since it looks that similar. :laughing:


They're great in general but some aren't good enough.


Wolf Children really looks similar, but then take any Disney-like anime that's over 50 minutes long and transfer it to 24 FPS and bam, you get one of those Ghibli movies :suspicion:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

just for the spark said:


> I know that you guys had this conversation a long time ago, but I just want to say that I personally think Tangled had beautiful animation. And was beautiful in general. The color scheme! Her hair! The glowing lights!!!


Well, this thread still hasn't moved away from animation, so I think you're fine.


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> I think Emma Watson would be a lovely Belle as well!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm sorry, but Amanda Seyfried is the perfect Rapunzel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! And unrelated, but Taylor Swift always reminded me of Honey Lemon from Big Hero 6:


I hadn't even considered Amanda Seyfried! Ooh, now I don't know what to do with her because I really like Alicia Silverstone as Rapunzel too...
...whatever, they can both be her)


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> When people phrase things like this, I go "oh god: are they talking about me?" Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't, sometimes I can't figure it out, but that is my first reaction.
> 
> Not sure why.


Ditto lol


----------



## fair phantom

hoopla said:


> You are totally an Se imo.
> 
> lol.
> 
> Honestly the more I interact with @Princess Langwidere the more I believe she is ISFJ and the more I wonder if maybe I'm an ESFJ... I know you said I sound like Ne-Si... but if you notice from my descriptions I pay a lot of attention to detail so...
> 
> it's just details in my environment I miss because I'm so out of sync with it. But during films and stuff yeah...
> 
> ....I just wonder if maybe the Ne is too high for Si dominate? bleh. Every ISFJ says that.


solipsistic tendencies in an ESFJ? Yeah...I don't think so. :bwink:

I think your Ti is higher than your Ne.


----------



## galactic collision

Shame Spiral said:


> Well, this thread still hasn't moved away from animation, so I think you're fine.


I wasn't even that far ahead, I just read a post and was like "time to respond. Oh there are like 150 more posts. They've probably moved on...BUT I HAVENT"

Little did I know, you had in fact NOT moved on

I'm watching a torrented version of inside out right now and I'm just like

Why is this movie so emotional

I started crying earlier while I was talking about it

Granted

I was high

But still


----------



## Adena

just for the spark said:


> I know that you guys had this conversation a long time ago, but I just want to say that I personally think Tangled had beautiful animation. And was beautiful in general. The color scheme! Her hair! The glowing lights!!!
> 
> There's a shot in "When Will My Life Begin?" where she's about to paint, and she opens up her paintbox and you can see each place the paintbrush lightly stroked on the box or where the paint kind of smudged or splattered
> 
> Sorry if this makes no sense, I'm kind of high right now. I love Tangled. Good night


Agreed! I always thought the animation is just amazing. THE DETAILS MAN, THE DETAILS. And the colors were so amazing <3

In general, I actually adore the new animation. The animation in Frozen was incredibly, that actually looked like snow??? When Elsa built her castle I was like "WOW".


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> No, you are missing the point about what legend is. (You're not alone)
> Let's be clear; sky is not a flavor. Cotton candy is a flavor and I'm not talking about cotton candy. Sky is a state of being.
> If you have ever read Joseph Campbell, you will know about the monomyth, the 'hero of a thousand faces'. If you have taken a comparative religion class, you will know that every culture has a creation myth, a flood myth, etc. Maybe I shouldn't have said sky. Maybe I should have said sea. Our fairytales are relics from the cosmic ocean. They are our connections to the unconscious, the unsaid, the primeval world, the collective grumpling of the world.
> (link to 'cosmic ocean' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ocean but of course I mean it somewhat more metaphorically than this, though that is a metaphor as well)
> 
> The problem with Joseph Campbell (he tried to address it but it was not his focus) is that he was writing the monomyth of man, male man. Man is Odysseus, is Gilgamesh, is Harry Potter, is Robin Hood, is King Arthur. There is a shared thread but Woman is different. Fairytales are what women passed down to their children, what nursemaids told their charges, what grandmothers told their granddaughters. Campbell tried to address the feminine side of the sky -- the lunar half -- but I think ultimately he was seeing it from a 'sunny' perspective and he presented the feminine tales more or less from a masculine perspective -- Sleeping Beauty is the Matchless Maiden whom the hero must awake. (I like Disney's Sleeping Beauty because it does have a strong male character who is a good role model for boys) But I think Sleeping Beauty is a powerful feminine myth as well. Cinderella is more or less constructed according to Christian principes; it is easy enough to see that Prince Charming is the Kingdom of Heaven (which I do believe he is in most stories but I expect Cinderella was written after Christianity). I don't think it is as potent a symbol as Beauty and the Beast or Sleeping Beauty, even Snow White, it is a little more artificial, wish-fulfillment based, but Disney made it full of sky, you still see a pure heroine who overcomes adversity, who finds a star in the darkness, and so forth. That is entirely missing from The Little Mermaid, Aladdin. They are just stories. Tales. They're fine (except for how Ariel makes a deal with the devil and gets off scot-free) but they lack that mythic potency that children need to learn what good and evil are. Children understand myth, better than adults often, because they are more in tune with their subconscious (even than their conscious) but they need the reinforcement, they cannot learn to think only in numbers and look only at the earth, they must become friends and aspirants to the sky, they must learn how to visit the sea...


I really don't get what you're trying to say here. Maybe it's the extraneous information, but what you're saying isn't getting through to me. I can read it perfectly fine, but all I see is meaningless dribble. Not your fault, it's my comprehension skills that need work on this. Damn it. :frustrating:


----------



## Adena

Princess Langwidere said:


> I hadn't even considered Amanda Seyfried! Ooh, now I don't know what to do with her because I really like Alicia Silverstone as Rapunzel too...
> ...whatever, they can both be her)


EVERYONE IS A RAPUNZEL YAYYY
People hav old me that I look like Elsa and omg?? Thank you??? But idk I'm not so blonde and my nose is not Elsa's at all but I'm taking the compliment haha


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> They're great in general but some aren't good enough.
> 
> Wolf Children really looks similar, but then take any Disney-like anime that's over 50 minutes long and transfer it to 24 FPS and bam, you get one of those Ghibli movies :suspicion:


Have you seen Kara no Kyoukai? A film series in the same universe as Fate and Tsukihime, but with a very screwed up watching order. If I remember correctly, story wise, it's 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 1st, 5th, 6th and 7th. Kind of like Haruhi in its order, you can watch it both ways. :wink:

I just remember Wolf Children because me and a friend snuck into a projector room, and every lunch time we weren't on an errand, we would marathon that. :laughing: Very, *very* good movie.


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> Have you seen Kara no Kyoukai? A film series in the same universe as Fate and Tsukihime, but with a very screwed up watching order. If I remember correctly, story wise, it's 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 1st, 5th, 6th and 7th. Kind of like Haruhi in its order, you can watch it both ways. :wink:
> 
> I just remember Wolf Children because me and a friend snuck into a projector room, and every lunch time we weren't on an errand, we would marathon that. :laughing: Very, *very* good movie.


I haven't seen it but I've definitely heard of it, I might watch it someday... :wink:

Projection booths are freaking loud, how did you manage to hear the dialogues ? That is if you understand spoken Japanese, otherwise there's no need :tongue:


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> EVERYONE IS A RAPUNZEL YAYYY
> People hav old me that I look like Elsa and omg?? Thank you??? But idk I'm not so blonde and my nose is not Elsa's at all but I'm taking the compliment haha


Oh, I can actually see that!


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> I haven't seen it but I've definitely heard of it, I might watch it someday... :wink:
> 
> Projection booths are freaking loud, how did you manage to hear the dialogues ? That is if you understand spoken Japanese, otherwise there's no need :tongue:


It's very good. But it costs a fucking fortune. Ufotable, man. :laughing:

_Weeellll_, it wasn't really a high class projector room, just one we had in our school, soundproof too. Oh, and we watched it dubbed. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> I really don't get what you're trying to say here. Maybe it's the extraneous information, but what you're saying isn't getting through to me. I can read it perfectly fine, but all I see is meaningless dribble. Not your fault, it's my comprehension skills that need work on this. Damn it. :frustrating:


There was no extraneous information.
Actually, maybe there was, I'm not sure because as I said I've had a few glasses of wine and I'm in a really horrible mood otherwise but I think I made a lot of sense? Can you explain what you didn't understand, this is such an important concept and it honestly bothers me that people don't get it, I want to know how to talk about it so people won't think I'm crazy?


----------



## Adena

Princess Langwidere said:


> Oh, I can actually see that!


You kinda remind me of Belle when you're brunette 

In other news, I am DYING to see Inside Out but I need to study and it's annoying.


----------



## fair phantom

Gray Romantic said:


> EVERYONE IS A RAPUNZEL YAYYY
> People hav old me that I look like Elsa and omg?? Thank you??? But idk I'm not so blonde and my nose is not Elsa's at all but I'm taking the compliment haha


I can see it! Eh coloring isn't everything. 

I've gotten told I look like Ariel and a mix between Tiana and Giselle.

@Princess Langwidere for what it is worth I think I understand what you are saying. I don't necessarily agree with everything (particularly that the purer representations of the tales are always better) but I think I get what you are saying about earth and air and I love how you put it. I often think of things _elementally_, different people are different elements, or mixes of elements, etc)

I'm sorry you are in a horrible mood. If you need to talk you can pm me.


----------



## Adena

fair phantom said:


> I can see it! Eh coloring isn't everything.
> 
> I've gotten told I look like Ariel and a mix between Tiana and Giselle.


You kinda look like Ariel indeed! Because of the hair and probably the whole xNFP aura x)


----------



## Future2Future

Barakiel said:


> It's very good. But it costs a fucking fortune. Ufotable, man. :laughing:
> 
> _Weeellll_, it wasn't really a high class projector room, just one we had in our school, soundproof too. Oh, and we watched it dubbed. :wink:


So your school managed to get a print of that film? Awesome ! :crazy:


----------



## Barakiel

ProtoCosmos said:


> So your school managed to get a print of that film? Awesome ! :crazy:


We technically got it ourselves. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

fair phantom said:


> I can see it! Eh coloring isn't everything.
> 
> I've gotten told I look like Ariel and a mix between Tiana and Giselle.
> 
> @Princess Langwidere for what it is worth I think I understand what you are saying. I don't necessarily agree with everything (particularly that the purer representations of the tales are always better) but I think I get what you are saying about earth and air and I love how you put it. I often think of things _elementally_, different people are different elements, or mixes of elements, etc)
> 
> I'm sorry you are in a horrible mood. If you need to talk you can pm me.


Thank you)
(And thank you, but I'll be over it by the time I go to sleep) I wasn't trying to fish for sympathy or 'vaguebook' or anything, just kinda out of it for literally inexplicable reasons but the conversation helps, but I'm not thinking 100% clearly)


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> There was no extraneous information.
> Actually, maybe there was, I'm not sure because as I said I've had a few glasses of wine and I'm in a really horrible mood otherwise but I think I made a lot of sense? Can you explain what you didn't understand, this is such an important concept and it honestly bothers me that people don't get it, I want to know how to talk about it so people won't think I'm crazy?


If you have enough information to write two huge paragraphs, yes, there was extraneous information.

I don't want to insult you, but I just don't get what you mean, if Disney maintaining the status quo for their stories is good, then it'd be nothing but the same release every single time. You want a powerful feminine story? Jasmine. She actually does something, unlike being a mcguffin for the prince to kiss, like in Sleeping Beauty. I think you're seeing far too much into these stories. Or perhaps I'm seeing far too little.

Again, if you want to say that Disney was pure when it was older, then I disagree. Strongly.


----------



## Barakiel

@fair phantom, I still don't get what she means? If you can, can you help me understand? It's really bugging me not being able to comprehend what she's saying, perhaps with the both of you bashing on my skull, I'll get it. :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Gray Romantic said:


> You kinda remind me of Belle when you're brunette
> 
> In other news, I am DYING to see Inside Out but I need to study and it's annoying.


_Thank you!_ (She's the only brunette princess so it's no surprise haha)
I agree that @fair phantom has an Ariel look to her, or perhaps one of Ariel's sisters (who imo were prettier and less ridiculous than our heroine)


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> @fair phantom, I still don't get what she means? If you can, can you help me understand? It's really bugging me not being able to comprehend what she's saying, perhaps with the both of you bashing on my skull, I'll get it. :happy:


okay well let me start with this question: have you ever read the traditional tales? as in those recorded/written by the brothers grimm?


----------



## Darkbloom

OvalCat said:


> I'm sorry but my brain just didn't comprehend wht you said about developing. >< Could you please elaborate on the development of the loop and the relationship between the loop and the grip? The grip is stress? But the loop is something more generalized?
> Hm.
> 
> @shinynotshiny, so hm. What do you say to the people who believe they've been in the loop or relate to the loop experience?


This
"ESTP/ENFJ: Se/Fe or Fe/Se--Histrionic Personality Disorder. This tends to manifest itself in terms of exaggerated, aggressive sexual behavior and physical impulsiveness. Since reflecting the outer world is the only thing that matters, whatever will shock, impress, or otherwise affect others enough to include the user in their social rituals is what has to be done. Real empathy is rare as this type requires constant thrills or conflict--in the ENFJ version, this often results in excessive sensitivity to perceived "rudeness" or failure to respect the user's preferred cultural custom (Fe), combined with tertiary Se responding aggressively through implied threats of brute force. (e.g., Vito Corleone: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse"--gives a surface appearance of respecting the cultural standards of negotiation, but implies that refusal to accept this "offer" would be quite unpleasant for the recipient!) If Ti/Ni were doing its job, the user would find a sense of balance and comfortability with himself, granting him the ability to discover what is subjectively important to him, rather than constantly shifting with the tide of cultural and social trends."
I don't really know how to explain it other than saying it's me, since forever lol
As a child I dreamed of having a job that would support me being that way, I payed attention to women _my father_ seemed to like and strived to look like them one day (and I had some big meltdowns about not looking "right" before I was 10), I already secretly admired Fe-Se loop types of people with their good and bad qualities because of how much attention they got, I was so proud of everything about me that had potential to get me the kind of attention I wanted and I was puzzled by people who cared about things other than impressing or otherwise affecting people, only offers I _ever_ made were the ones people couldn't refuse because subconsciously I knew I wouldn't react well to any of my offers being refused (I always had a big issue with rejection and being told no, sometimes I ask for something I don't even want just so I could hear "Yes" while ignoring things I may _actually_ need or I make myself rejected by behaving over the top so I could say "Haha, _I_ provoked you to reject me, if I wanted your love, I'd have it")
It's not a stress thing, it's a life thing, everything I do is affected by it in some way.

That's imo a loop, Fi-Ni one should work similar, but with Fi and Ni of course


----------



## 68097

OvalCat said:


> @angelcat unless you are a cold unempathetic pokerface bastard you cannot pass the Fi test. n.n












Do you consider yourself a cold unempathetic pokerface bastard?

I suppose my tendency to over-analyze myself and reshuffle things is Ti, which cracks me up, but right now I have a litany of FiTe behaviors in myself running through my head that are falling neatly into little FiTe slots. I can make it all make sense. I can convince myself of it, then later I will fall into doubt again, because I do not fit the stereotypes of either type.


----------



## Darkbloom

@angelcat, I just think you're some sort of Ti, I'm not getting any kind of Te


----------



## Greyhart

I moved power supply out of PC case and thus got rid of that pesky hot air pocket betwen supply and video card. I can't believe it didn't occur to me before. I've cleaned system today and was like "So much space without power supply there... WAIT!"










30 pages of in-depth cartoons analysis and fangirling wow.

Since we talked about anime a bit, for the record my favorites are Gintama, Mushishi, GITS SAC, Durarara!! and... probably Madoka.

I find Ghibli works outright boring. :| They never hit anything in me.

Stop changing user names, people! I am supposed to be commitment-phobe here! I need notes about this.

Friend sent me








"The only explanation"



Pressed Flowers said:


> @Greyhart
> 
> Wasn't he a baby just like yesterday?
> 
> They grow up too fast.


My little biological siren :')



shinynotshiny said:


> The only movie I don't recognize is The Secret of Nimh. Never mind. Google says otherwise.


bad shiny bad

why do they keep killing parents in children cartoons?



ElliCa said:


> Fail Fi because only Ti wants to understand things. Fi can't logic or empathize because Fi wants to stay wrapped up in its emotions and irrational prejudices forever.


Well, why, Fi has Te to streamline all those emotions. 



> Seconded with the "don't you have better things to worry about". Like surely homelessness and world hunger are a bit of a problem that they could tackle. But nope gay sex is what is truly threatening humanity.


For me washing a kitchen sink is better way to spend your time. Similarly with transgender issues in a "Why do some people feel a need to police other people's genitalia?" wa. When you think about it in this "direct" way it becomes so ridicilous, I can't believe haters themselves don't see it. 



> You truly are Queen Professor of the Dinosaurs.


IDK, her skull ios a bit too small and thin, and a ribcage definitely lacks in volume in front which makes her look like a raptor. So I suppose I could think about her as not yet fully-grown Saurophaganax. A dino teen, maybe. She lacks lots of fat and muscles. There's also an issue with lack of a full skeleton - most of it restoration based on Allosaurus. I guess I'll roll with "teen" theory.



Princess Langwidere said:


> If you have ever read Joseph Campbell, you will know about the monomyth, the 'hero of a thousand faces'. If you have taken a comparative religion class, you will know that every culture has a creation myth, a flood myth, etc. Maybe I shouldn't have said sky. Maybe I should have said sea. Our fairytales are relics from the cosmic ocean. They are our connections to the unconscious, the unsaid, the primeval world, the collective grumpling of the world.
> (link to 'cosmic ocean' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ocean but of course I mean it somewhat more metaphorically than this, though that is a metaphor as well)


I love fiddling with origins of religious motifs and linking them to prehistoric experiences when we still lived in a tight population. Especially great flood that repeats itself in multiple religions (even with biblical part of "others" mating with human women). I hold to my theory that this is echo of a same flood and "others" referenced are other species of **** genus.



just for the spark said:


> I know that you guys had this conversation a long time ago, but I just want to say that I personally think Tangled had beautiful animation. And was beautiful in general. The color scheme! Her hair! The glowing lights!!!
> 
> There's a shot in "When Will My Life Begin?" where she's about to paint, and she opens up her paintbox and you can see each place the paintbrush lightly stroked on the box or where the paint kind of smudged or splattered
> 
> Sorry if this makes no sense, I'm kind of high right now. I love Tangled. Good night


I related to her BEING SUPER EXCITED ABOUT LAME STUFF behavior. 



hoopla said:


> I actually adore when Disney breaks new ground. That is partly why I loved Princess and the Frog so much. I'm thinking about posting brief reviews of some of the films that y'all mentioned. See... I liked TLM because it broke the old Hollywood, fragile, meek, caretaking girl stereotype and gave us a rebel... now we just have a model to break. -_- I THOUGHT TPATF might break it.


I loved Tiana. "I GON GET SHIT DONE" princess with "Weeee! Fun!" prince. It's really sad that the movie didn't get enough recognition.



fair phantom said:


> Oh _Emperor's New Groove_. This weekend I went to the Smithsonian Folklife Festival. This year the featured country was Peru. It was fascinating, but I felt bad because every time I saw the word "Cusco" this song started up in my head:


Dream life.



tine said:


> Yes!! All his stuff is amazing!
> 
> Here's a gaming quiz if people are interested:
> Quantic Foundry Profiles
> 
> My results:
> View attachment 355194





ProtoCosmos said:


> Here goes my Tetris / Audiosurf / Star Fox fanaticism


"Hello, I am Ne dom and I have no Se at all." I am extremely bloodthirsty and power-hungry in games.









I have action prioritized more than actual SPs. 

You guys would be clerics to my mage/warrior. :dry:









... Difference tho...



OvalCat said:


> How many people here believe in loop theory?


Somewhat. I believe in over-indulgence in tertiary.



tine said:


> I found this thread on listing words to describe yourself ( here: http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...20-words-best-describes-you.html#post19070433 ) and it got me wondering, do you think struggling with that sort of thing is linked to type?
> 
> I find it really hard to summarise things in just a word - I had to do it on my trip (three words to describe the project) and I really couldnt do it (I ended up copying my team mates ones). The thing was they all found it very easy.
> 
> Looking at the thread, I personally couldnt do it, but it seems like lots of people can...


Easy even though I dislike the idea of making lists.

Curious, lazy, selfish, optimistic, negligent, unsympathetic, excitable, self-centered, inventive, irritable, obsessive, daring, loyal, enduring. Umm...



OvalCat said:


> Care to elaborate? Unless you are on your phone and can't write much ><
> 
> I'm curious because I decided ISFP over ESFP because:
> a) ElliCat recommended so XP
> b) I related to the ISFP loop theory very strongly.
> But if loop theory is wrong then I don't have that as a valid reason and it must have been a coincidence and I'll have to find another valid reason why I'm Fi-dom not Se-dom.


Loop theory imo is not "very wrong" I just don't think you can sustain loops for very long. :S



shinynotshiny said:


> *My Gaming Style:* Strategic, Driven, Independent, and Deeply Immersed


u people underappreciate mindless destruction.



angelcat said:


> Right, so I'm 98% convinced of my type, but for the hell of it, I'll ask: does anyone ever get a FiTe vibe from me?


No, but you are firmly ingrained as ISFJ in my mind so I am biased.


----------



## Immolate

angelcat said:


> I could site how other people's opinions don't seem to influence mine that much, and how I will refuse to back down or do something if I believe it is amoral; how the older I get the less I care if you agree with me; how if something doesn't bother me I'm inclined to think you're stupid for letting it bother you; how I tend to be uncomfortable with public shows of emotion; my frankness if you push me over the edge or nudge me too far; my tendency to tell it like it is; how I measure things in terms of success by profit (does this make me any money? did this make my traffic go up? no? why do it, then?); how I drop things without sentiment if I think it is a waste of my valuable time, even if I've been doing it for 15 years, etc. etc. I could then go on to argue Ne-dom in my intellectual openness, my sense of control over my Ne, my effortless reading of people and sensing the wider implication of things, my disinterest in repeating the same experiences more than once, my high turn-over of hobbies and interests, my tendency to be "done" with something once I have exhausted it of its potential, my lack of interest in unchanging things; and my devalued Si in my general inattentiveness to detail, my total disinterest in the past (it's dead, and gone, and it rises up to haunt me from time to time, but unless it is triggered, I never dwell on it), etc. etc.
> 
> I probably am FeTi but my E6 makes me self-contradicting and able to pose just about any argument or ascribe my overall behavior to a particular type.


Even Fe users have strong opinions they'll defend // Age-related more than type-related // The older someone gets, the more they tend to accept certain things about themselves or society // (that's assuming they're healthy people) // But do you tell people you think they're stupid? // How often are you frank without having to be driven to the edge? // Displays of affection could be an introversion thing // I imagine most people define success in that way, especially if we're talking about work // 15 years is a long time what // What do we do with something once we've exhausted its potential? Stare at it? Dwell on it? Erase our experience and do it over? // Si doesn't have to be about dwelling on memory

*Note:* I'm just poking for fun


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I find Ghibli works outright boring. :| They never hit anything in me.


You have no soul, obviously.



Greyhart said:


> bad shiny bad


No.



Greyhart said:


> "Hell, I am Ne dom and I have no Se at all." I am extremely bloodthirsty and power-hungry in games.


Mindless.



Greyhart said:


> u people underappreciate mindless destruction.


YOU ADMIT IT.


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> You have no soul, obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> 
> Mindless.
> 
> 
> 
> YOU ADMIT IT.


shiny u so grumpy :tongue:


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> shiny u so grumpy :tongue:


:grumpy:


----------



## owlet

@angelcat I don't see anything in particular that seems Fi-Te. Remember that people kept saying hoopla might be INTP or something. ISFJs are just often mischaracterised.
@Greyhart Have you watched anything by Satoshi Kon? It might be more your style. (Also, if/when I get a desktop computer, I might try doing the same thing.)


----------



## Greyhart

laurie17 said:


> @angelcat I don't see anything in particular that seems Fi-Te. Remember that people kept saying hoopla might be INTP or something. ISFJs are just often mischaracterised.
> @Greyhart Have you watched anything by Satoshi Kon? It might be more your style. (Also, if/when I get a desktop computer, I might try doing the same thing.)


Ceramic "dish" I put under it (so supply could draw air with cooler on it's bottom) seem to actually help with cooling. And video card is 36 degrees currently (Celsius).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kon#Filmography
Some of it. I remember I liked Paprika a lot although I can't really recall anything concrete.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

The hard thing about being a Gold is it's really difficult to creep on threads without being noticed.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> The hard thing about being a Gold is it's really difficult to creep on threads without being noticed.


Do you mean the socionics threads.

They are so full of drama, I kind of love it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> Do you mean the socionics threads.
> 
> They are so full of drama, I kind of love it.


Did you spot me lurking. 

They're kind of making me sad, honestly.


----------



## 68097

All: my inferior Ne forces me to consider all the options once in awhile. It is kind of fun to do.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> Did you spot me lurking.
> 
> They're kind of making me sad, honestly.


I did. I lurk there, too~


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I did. I lurk there, too~


I still have no idea how you block yourself from the member count. I thought it would happen once you read 10000 posts or something, yet you've been doing it since before you hit 1000. Probably some option I didn't consider too wisely when I joined?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Oh. The good thing is people might not recognize my username change yet. lol


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> I still have no idea how you block yourself from the member count. I thought it would happen once you read 10000 posts or something, yet you've been doing it since before you hit 1000. Probably some option I didn't consider too wisely when I joined?


There's an option somewhere about not always appearing online? I think. It's probably how Lucho and Blue Flare pop up without notice.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> There's an option somewhere about not always appearing online? I think. It's probably how Lucho and Blue Flare pop up without notice.


I'll be honest, to see if you're on or not I tend to just count how many people it says on the thread and count how many are present and then I see if there's an extra and I usually just assume that invisible peep is you.


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> I'll be honest, to see if you're on or not I tend to just count how many people it says on the thread and count how many are present and then I see if there's an extra and I usually just assume that invisible peep is you.


:glee:

Did you find the option, tho. Go lurk.


----------



## ElliCat

laurie17 said:


> @ElliCat I didn't do angry for a long, long time. As in, I would pretend I wasn't angry at all and just go inward, so I didn't have to deal with any anger or harsh emotion (ultimate retreating to my happy place). I needed everything to be on an even keel. But then, there was a lot of repressed anger (initially why I thought I was type 9) and some stuff brought it all to the surface, it exploded out, then I was determined not to repress it again, so found healthy ways of expressing anger. It's all good now :ghost3: I think practising expressing it in little ways can help, like with anything. Say someone annoys you, you just say 'That was annoying' or something similar to let them know.


Yeah, I first identified as a 9 too, for the same reason. Every so often I wonder if I maybe should've stuck with it, but nope, definitely a 4. :fatigue:

The thing is, I actually do tend to bring up issues as they start to bother me - it's why fights are so rare to start off with. My problem is that I'm not always aware of things becoming an issue, so the few times I have exploded it's been a kind of straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back scenario and even then I have to sit and analyse to figure out exactly what's pushed me to that point. Or like in this case, I've been feeling frustrated and overwhelmed by all the work/school/domestic stuff I've been juggling, and a bit taken for granted too, but I've also been trying to talk myself out of it because I feel like I _shouldn't_ be feeling that way, that it's not that bad and I should be able to handle it, and I really really hate asking for help.

So I guess I need to 1. start accepting that I'm not Superwoman and 2. learn to bloody well ask for help.

Siiiiiigh.

My test reults:











tine said:


> I found this thread on listing words to describe yourself ( here: http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...20-words-best-describes-you.html#post19070433 ) and it got me wondering, do you think struggling with that sort of thing is linked to type?
> 
> I find it really hard to summarise things in just a word - I had to do it on my trip (three words to describe the project) and I really couldnt do it (I ended up copying my team mates ones). The thing was they all found it very easy.
> 
> Looking at the thread, I personally couldnt do it, but it seems like lots of people can...


I could if I had to, but I don't like to because words can't really capture what I think I am. Pretty much agree with @OvalCat.



OvalCat said:


> I'm curious because I decided ISFP over ESFP because:
> a) ElliCat recommended so XP
> b) I related to the ISFP loop theory very strongly.
> But if loop theory is wrong then I don't have that as a valid reason and it must have been a coincidence and I'll have to find another valid reason why I'm Fi-dom not Se-dom.


:whoa: Don't trust me, I don't know anything!

I relate to Fi-Si loops but like @shinynotshiny and @laurie17 have said, it might be due to other factors. 



Greyhart said:


> For me washing a kitchen sink is better way to spend your time. Similarly with transgender issues in a "Why do some people feel a need to police other people's genitalia?" wa. When you think about it in this "direct" way it becomes so ridicilous, I can't believe haters themselves don't see it.


YES it is SO stupid. All the things one could be thinking of, and they get themselves all worked up about THAT. So sad. 



> IDK, her skull ios a bit too small and thin, and a ribcage definitely lacks in volume in front which makes her look like a raptor. So I suppose I could think about her as not yet fully-grown Saurophaganax. A dino teen, maybe. She lacks lots of fat and muscles. There's also an issue with lack of a full skeleton - most of it restoration based on Allosaurus. I guess I'll roll with "teen" theory.


Poor Baby. Stuck in the awkward teen phrase forever.



> I love fiddling with origins of religious motifs and linking them to prehistoric experiences when we still lived in a tight population. Especially great flood that repeats itself in multiple religions (even with biblical part of "others" mating with human women). I hold to my theory that this is echo of a same flood and "others" referenced are other species of **** genus.


I do this too.



shinynotshiny said:


> Do you mean the socionics threads.
> 
> They are so full of drama, I kind of love it.


Oh right, I keep forgetting people can see that I'm lurking. Whooooops.


----------



## Greyhart

ElliCat said:


> YES it is SO stupid. All the things one could be thinking of, and they get themselves all worked up about THAT. So sad.
> 
> 
> Poor Baby. Stuck in the awkward teen phrase forever.
> 
> 
> I do this too.


Vaguely concerned if this means that I am compatible with FPs for no clearly discernible reason or I am a FP myself.


----------



## 68097

Oh my gosh that thread is pure gold.


----------



## Future2Future

angelcat said:


> Oh my gosh that thread is pure gold.











Am I doing this right ?


----------



## ElliCat

Greyhart said:


> Vaguely concerned if this means that I am compatible with FPs for no clearly discernible reason or I am a FP myself.


Or am I TP


----------



## Greyhart

angelcat said:


> Oh my gosh that thread is pure gold.


I feel like I am missing a joke or reading something wrong. I'm on page 9 it's still basically a civil squabbling.











ElliCat said:


> Or am I TP


You might. It's been fuck ton page and neither of us had any life-changing revelations.


----------



## Immolate

Greyhart said:


> I feel like I am missing a joke or reading something wrong. I'm on page 9 it's still basically a civil squabbling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might. It's been fuck ton page and neither of us had any life-changing revelations.


Butthurt, mostly.

*[Edit]* Best insult in the thread: What a bunch of clowns. :tears_of_joy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I dislike how personal things got. That always makes me sad.  I found it funny though because here I've been, following the Enneagram Controversial Opinions thread, thinking _that_ was heated...


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> I dislike how personal things got. That always makes me sad.  I found it funny though because here I've been, following the Enneagram Controversial Opinions thread, thinking _that_ was heated...


I have a lot of Thoughts but I'll keep them to myself. That said, yeah.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Being an ENFJ and relating to fictional characters is so difficult. 

Because you read the INFJ narrator and you go "wow, this is so relatable! Me!" 

And then the INFJ narrative describes an ESFJ and you guiltily go, "wait, but that's me too..." (guiltily because the INFJ is not giving a flattering portrait of the ESFJ) and then it's said that the ESFJ is the INFJ's opposite and you go "oh dear... then which is me?" 

On the upside, at least I'm kind of relating to fictional characters.


----------



## Greyhart

Pressed Flowers said:


> I dislike how personal things got. That always makes me sad.  I found it funny though because here I've been, following the Enneagram Controversial Opinions thread, thinking _that_ was heated...












No, honey bear, don't soil your eyes with that drama.

Better watch this


----------



## Tad Cooper

@_OvalCat_ and @ElliCat - Yeah, I think it's very much down to interpretation with just using just a word and not being able to explain why etc...
@_Greyhart_ - well done with that, but you need more nice words like fun, amusing, intelligent etc.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I don't know like seeing people attack someone just makes me very uncomfortable...? Like regardless my opinions, I don't like it when I see that crap. I don't know, I can't take any sides, obviously, but the strong negative feelings made me go "eep" 

in other news, I have an interview in a few minutes so I'll have to keep away from charged threads and watch @Greyhart's video momentarily.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

angelcat said:


> Right, so I'm 98% convinced of my type, but for the hell of it, I'll ask: does anyone ever get a FiTe vibe from me?


....Uh no.

This is coming from someone with a blog reviewing the moral objectivity of movies. And someone who is against the idea of doing something that feels right (Fi) because it may be harmful or hurtful to others.

I'm pretty sure you're an Fe type.



angelcat said:


> I don't really talk about my feelings all that much


...But Feeling is not really about emotions. Feeling is about Value Judgments. I saw a thread about a girl who said she feels indifferent so she can't be a feeler... but that itself was viewed as Fe because it was a judgment based in the realm of value.... bad, good, worthy, unworthy, apathetic, unapathetic... really interesting stuff actually. If you say you're indifferent, you're still using Feeling, because it's judging the value of something. So you can feel emotionally removed and still be using Feeling.

Actually... that cinnamon roll image with the description describing it's pureness and goodness Greyhart just posted is an example of Feeling. You don't have to talk about your own Feelings to be a feeler. 



angelcat said:


> I had two guests -- ISFJ and ENFP, and temperament wise, I'm more like the ENFP than the ISFJ. I've always chalked that down to Enneagram but now I'm not so sure.


Try not to compare yourself to others too much. I get along with some SFJs and really can't stand others.



angelcat said:


> I know one thing, though -- not a Fe-dom. Not remotely. ESFJ is out.


Why?


----------



## Greyhart

tine said:


> @_OvalCat_ and @ElliCat - Yeah, I think it's very much down to interpretation with just using just a word and not being able to explain why etc...
> @_Greyhart_ - well done with that, but you need more nice words like fun, amusing, intelligent etc.


Forgot funny (I'm totally hilarious) but I am averagely intelligent there's not need to mention it from my point of view.

The world's tallest cow dies after a lifetime of Photoshop accusations


----------



## Immolate

Pressed Flowers said:


> I don't know like seeing people attack someone just makes me very uncomfortable...? Like regardless my opinions, I don't like it when I see that crap. I don't know, I can't take any sides, obviously, but the strong negative feelings made me go "eep"
> 
> in other news, I have an interview in a few minutes so I'll have to keep away from charged threads and watch @_Greyhart_'s video momentarily.


People have to assert how right they are, especially on the internet.

Good luck with the interview


----------



## Deadly Decorum

laurie17 said:


> that people kept saying hoopla might be INTP or something.


I think it's because I'm very open and flexible and don't believe there is one way to view the world like most Si dominates. Look at the conflict between me and langwieder and you can see where people are getting at. I'm really starting to think ISFJ fits her best, but I told her that so


----------



## Greyhart

Samsung S6 edge has a ridiculously epic commercial. I am almost compelled to go steal this phone.


----------



## Max

Pressed Flowers said:


> The hard thing about being a Gold is it's really difficult to creep on threads without being noticed.





shinynotshiny said:


> I did. I lurk there, too~





shinynotshiny said:


> There's an option somewhere about not always appearing online? I think. It's probably how Lucho and Blue Flare pop up without notice.


Bear, go to your settings in your profile. Go to 'Invisible Mode', and hit on. That is how I know Lucho used to lurk 

And Shinealot, you will never as cool of a ninja as I am. I am the sniper outta that Harrison Ford movie.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

PsychElGambino said:


> Bear, go to your settings in your profile. Go to 'Invisible Mode', and hit on. That is how I know Lucho used to lurk
> 
> And Shinealot, you will never as cool of a ninja as I am. I am the sniper outta that Harrison Ford movie.


Is Lucho your alter ego?


----------



## Greyhart

shinynotshiny said:


> You shared this treasure once before~


Some of lurkers might've not seen it. Also my cousin just gifted me maskless Captain America costume variant Captain America Age of Ultron Movie (No Mask Variant) Costume - Costume - Marvel Heroes - Items Base *_*


----------



## owlet

Pressed Flowers said:


> @_laurie17_ the person didn't even call me  I'm about to email about it


Oh no! That's so lame... :coldneko:I hope they just made a mistake about the time (very likely).


----------



## Deadly Decorum

PsychElGambino said:


> Because, I cloned myself, and those clones went on to post 24/7. Kidding, this is my old account. Treebob merged them both, thus creating the supergroup @PsychElGambino.


Why does this sound like a sci-fi story?



PsychElGambino said:


> Yes! I have been reading Naomi Quenk's book, the one about Inferior Grips.


I really need to re-read the book so I can post a critique. Been way too long to do so thoroughly. I've said it before and I''ll say it again; when she is correct, she is profound. When she is wrong... she is announcing from Mars. 



PsychElGambino said:


> I relate to Se-Dom and Fe-Dom grips, which is confusing, 'cause you're only meant to relate to one.


Ah Gambino... breaking the laws of physics and what is possible. That's my boy.



PsychElGambino said:


> Yes, Tug-O-War. War, being the key here.


With extra emphasis on the war. 

Care to provide an example of tug-a-war mode so I can compare to myself?



PsychElGambino said:


> I dunno, you slip her a Ritalin? Kidding. Mine is like that too, you call her out, and she is the biggest, most emotional asshat ever.
> 
> It is, very stressful. At times, but once you discover it all, things get better.


My mom used to have issues with pills. I'd know if she was using. She was... kooky. That's for sure.

My family life sounds so tragic and chaotic.

Does she ever think you're trying to start a fight or pick an argument, when all you want is a civilized, diplomatic conversation? And then she says "Well, we just don't agree, so how about you have your opinion, and I have mine?" ...Isn't that part of the fun? I'm not even trying to say you are wrong... I just want a nice conversation, but she gets so upset and angry every time. 

...Have you discovered it all? Share me the secrets of the universe. I don't obtain the Ni necessary to acquire them.

@shinynotshiny

Embarrassing story time:


* *




So I was 14 and suicidal and it landed me in a ward. I can't believe I'm admitting this ok anyway

My psychiatrist told me I am very logical and detached, and was not in touch with my emotions, and acted like Spock from Star Trek.

...Wasn't it my emotions that landed me there in the first place? Were my constant tears and breakdowns not enough for you? I still looked... unhuman and unfeeling in your eyes? ...It was pretty clear he was implying it as a negative thing, and like I didn't understand people's feelings. He told me I needed to pray to God to heal myself as well. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.




Anyway, Spock handled that better than me. I would panic and stammer and maybe submit to ease the tension. I hate you Spock. So contained, even when slapped in the face.

I am not Spock at all.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Pressed Flowers said:


> This thing my mind was addicted to and which made her a progressive PE teacher. My Tourette's therapist love it. It's like... you do activities (like touching your left knee with your right hand) repeatedly so it wakes up both sides of your brain and gets them to work together. My parents think it allowed me to be the miracle child who could walk against all odds  I don't know about all that, but it is proven to help.


Wow! I think my head would fall off if I did that too much...


----------



## Adena

I was just drained by a party... What the fuck.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

laurie17 said:


> Hm, I haven't noticed that at all with Si doms though. Well, not really. It's more that there's a preference for being able to expect certain things from something, like a comfort concern. I've found less mature Je/Ji types less flexible overall.


I certainly have. A myopic view of the world is my overly concise definition of Si. Then again I hate socionics so. 
@Pressed Flowers Is brain gym free? I'd like to try it. 

Also, good luck! Tell us how it goes.


----------



## Darkbloom

Gray Romantic said:


> I was just drained by a party... What the fuck.


Don't worry, I think it happens to everyone sometimes. No need to switch to ISFJ immediately XD

Why did it drain you? Was it boring? Sometimes I'm drained by social situations where I need to pay attention but at the same time there's not much going on.I'd rather either be totally alone or totally engaged in whatever's happening, and not somewhere in the middle (unsuccessfully) trying to make something actually happen.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Gray Romantic said:


> I was just drained by a party... What the fuck.


Can we just get rid of these "extroverts like socializing all the time" and "introverts could never enjoy a party ever" stereotypes please?


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Living dead said:


> Don't worry, I think it happens to everyone sometimes. No need to switch to ISFJ immediately XD
> 
> Why did it drain you? Was it boring? Sometimes I'm drained by social situations where I need to pay attention but at the same time there's not much going on.I'd rather either be totally alone or totally engaged in whatever's happening, and not somewhere in the middle (unsuccessfully) trying to make something actually happen.


Sometimes I think you're a Je dom and then I think Se dom.

This sounds very Se to me. I love chasing you in circles, can you tell?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> I certainly have. A myopic view of the world is my overly concise definition of Si. Then again I hate socionics so.
> 
> @Pressed Flowers Is brain gym free? I'd like to try it.
> 
> Also, good luck! Tell us how it goes.


Yeah, it's free! I'm not sure where you could find resources, but I'm pretty sure stuff is available online. My mom used to have the whole school do it in the morning, just a bunch of different exercises with crossing over your body. It's pretty simple, but I'm pretty confident there's got to be some resources for it online with more detail.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

tine said:


> Wow! I think my head would fall off if I did that too much...


It's just for five minutes! It is pretty funky, but I got so into it when I was younger. My mom dropped by our classroom while the video was on and thought I was making fun of her. My teacher had to explain that I was like just really actually into it, lol. I got me and my possy to all do it energetically.


----------



## Max

hoopla said:


> *Why does this sound like a sci-fi story? *


*

*Um, because I wrote it? And combining the conscious mind sounds a lot more 'spiritual' than 'sci-fi' to me anyway. Depends on who thinks of it, and their interests I suppose. You know? 




> *I really need to re-read the book so I can post a critique. Been way too long to do so thoroughly. I've said it before and I''ll say it again; when she is correct, she is profound. When she is wrong... she is announcing from Mars. *


Yes, exactly. She has an on and off feel to her. Light switch; sometimes she's there, sometimes she isn't. A bit like me, really. Sometimes I am the most intelligent person in the room [yes, there are others there], and sometimes I have the thought process of a rock. A big, dead rock. 





> *Ah Gambino... breaking the laws of physics and what is possible. That's my boy.*


Gambino?! I'm Chavez, Ma'am!










[Yes. My first gif. And quite ironic how it ties in with below v]




> *With extra emphasis on the war.
> 
> Care to provide an example of tug-a-war mode so I can compare to myself?
> *


The war? Mostly between my head, and heart. I know I want to do the right thing, but my head doesn't want me to be 'weak' or get 'hurt' doing so. It wants me to think about things, but my heart just wants me to help. My head is using logic against my heart, and my heart is using persuasion against my head. They're brothers at war. Josemi and Dorito [for real]. Only more dark. 



> *My mom used to have issues with pills. I'd know if she was using. She was... kooky. That's for sure.
> 
> My family life sounds so tragic and chaotic.*


Mine has issues with [don't laugh] paracetamol. I think she's addicted to them. She always seems to have a sore head. And she always seems to use them as a mask to mask her pain. In a sense, I guess it's more psychological than anything. 



> *Does she ever think you're trying to start a fight or pick an argument, when all you want is a civilized, diplomatic conversation? And then she says "Well, we just don't agree, so how about you have your opinion, and I have mine?" ...Isn't that part of the fun? I'm not even trying to say you are wrong... I just want a nice conversation, but she gets so upset and angry every time.
> *


She isn't even that civil. Seriously. She acts like a crazy, psychotic lady a lot of the time. Most of the time, she storms off, and tries to emotionally blackmail us. My Dad is immune to it, so are we all. We know she is being childish, it's irritating. 



> *...Have you discovered it all? Share me the secrets of the universe. I don't obtain the Ni necessary to acquire them.
> 
> 
> I am not Spock at all.*


*


*​All I can say.. is look up


----------



## Tad Cooper

Pressed Flowers said:


> It's just for five minutes! It is pretty funky, but I got so into it when I was younger. My mom dropped by our classroom while the video was on and thought I was making fun of her. My teacher had to explain that I was like just really actually into it, lol. I got me and my possy to all do it energetically.


Thats awesome! I should maybe try it to keep my brain alive now Im not studying anymore!


----------



## orbit

hoopla said:


> ....Uh no.
> 
> This is coming from someone with a blog reviewing the moral objectivity of movies. And someone who is against the idea of doing something that feels right (Fi) because it may be harmful or hurtful to others.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you're an Fe type.
> 
> 
> 
> ...But Feeling is not really about emotions. Feeling is about Value Judgments. I saw a thread about a girl who said she feels indifferent so she can't be a feeler... but that itself was viewed as Fe because it was a judgment based in the realm of value.... bad, good, worthy, unworthy, apathetic, unapathetic... really interesting stuff actually. If you say you're indifferent, you're still using Feeling, because it's judging the value of something. So you can feel emotionally removed and still be using Feeling.
> 
> Actually... that cinnamon roll image with the description describing it's pureness and goodness Greyhart just posted is an example of Feeling. You don't have to talk about your own Feelings to be a feeler.
> 
> 
> 
> Try not to compare yourself to others too much. I get along with some SFJs and really can't stand others.
> 
> 
> 
> Why?


How are people thinkers. I literally do not know how. The idea of people thinking differently than me upsets me. Everyone should be feelers. We should all be FPs and FJS. Become one with the F.


----------



## Future2Future

OvalCat said:


> How are people thinkers. I literally do not know how. The idea of people thinking differently than me upsets me. Everyone should be feelers. We should all be FPs and FJS. Become one with the F.


Our financial situation would be fourty times more alarming than Greece's. :suspicion:


----------



## orbit

ProtoCosmos said:


> Our financial situation would be fourty times more alarming than Greece's. :suspicion:


Feelers can make money because they have Te. Idk what Ti does but all you need is Te and you are good to go.


----------



## Future2Future

OvalCat said:


> Feelers can make money because they have Te. Idk what Ti does but all you need is Te and you are good to go.


Science wouldn't go past metaphors too, so instead of smartphones we would be holding a rock and pretend it's a magical communication device.


----------



## Greyhart

@hoopla what the fuck was with that psychiatrist. Also pookiebear said about her first psychiatrist being from the same category. Where do they get their M.D.s?


----------



## Immolate

hoopla said:


> @_shinynotshiny_
> 
> Embarrassing story time:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I was 14 and suicidal and it landed me in a ward. I can't believe I'm admitting this ok anyway
> 
> My psychiatrist told me I am very logical and detached, and was not in touch with my emotions, and acted like Spock from Star Trek.
> 
> ...Wasn't it my emotions that landed me there in the first place? Were my constant tears and breakdowns not enough for you? I still looked... unhuman and unfeeling in your eyes? ...It was pretty clear he was implying it as a negative thing, and like I didn't understand people's feelings. He told me I needed to pray to God to heal myself as well. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, Spock handled that better than me. I would panic and stammer and maybe submit to ease the tension. I hate you Spock. So contained, even when slapped in the face.
> 
> I am not Spock at all.


I lose respect for people, professional or otherwise, when they suggest "healing through prayer."

My own anecdote:


* *




What usually happens is that no one around me realizes I'm in a bad place, they just see someone who is either (a) withdrawn, or (b) cold. They get angry more often than not. When it gets to the point where I can't handle it anymore, there _is _an outpouring of emotion, but once that's done, I suppose you could compare me to Spock but even less chatty. This reaction is one of the reasons I'm taking the medication I'm taking, to avoid the "blunted affect" or any variation thereof. I was in a unit (yes, I had the same experience, no need to be embarrassed around me) and techs and nurses would approach me and ask, "Are you okay?" My facial expressions didn't match my behavior or speech. What's interesting is that this is always true to a degree. I'm hardly expressive or interact with others, which is one reason I had such a negative reaction to the Fe typing. Just felt absurd.

I've been slapped in the face, adjusted my glasses, and resumed the discussion, but I'm no Spock either. My tolerance is nowhere near as high as his :very_drunk:




:hampster:


*[Edit] *aww @tine is a bee


----------



## Darkbloom

hoopla said:


> Sometimes I think you're a Je dom and then I think Se dom.
> 
> This sounds very Se to me. I love chasing you in circles, can you tell?


It does sound Se XD

Honestly, I've been meaning to make a thread combining MBTI and enneagram, because E 2 would make for a very Fe-ish ESTP,right?Perhaps I'm counting the 2 things as Fe things even though they are just 2.
But at the same time Se dom...I don't know, no Se dom/aux description really fits compared to lower Se.
No clue:indecisiveness:


----------



## Tad Cooper

shinynotshiny said:


> *[Edit] *aww @_tine_ is a bee


Bzzzzz! (I did my first day of lab tech work with bees!)


----------



## Dangerose

OvalCat said:


> How many people here believe in loop theory?


I think I believe in it, it seems really easy enough to cut off the functions you're not oriented toward.
I relate to the Fe-Se loop more than Fe-Ne, can't tell if it's actually because I'm an ENFJ or if it's really FeSi I'm seeing, or some other factor (Enneagram for instance) So I don't know it's easy to assume 'loop' but I think it exists


----------



## Immolate

I'll never understand guests. What do these guys do?


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> And this is where I disagree, because they're simply that, stories. They have their own moral messages, but one is not necessarily more pure than another, or "sky", as you put it. Disney using constructed stories, rather than natural stories, as you seem to put it, doesn't change a damn thing. It doesn't make them impurer than the old tales, it simply means that the viewers get to experience, oh, I don't know, something more modern? I'm not necessarily against the old tales, like Sleeping Beauty, but, I don't know, I don't see the point in maintaining outdated values. As you said to @hoopla against putting a spin on the legend, you think that the old stories had a more... natural nature to them. But that's exactly why I'm against them.


Can you explain further? Why would you be against them?


----------



## Adena

Living dead said:


> Don't worry, I think it happens to everyone sometimes. No need to switch to ISFJ immediately XD
> 
> Why did it drain you? Was it boring? Sometimes I'm drained by social situations where I need to pay attention but at the same time there's not much going on.I'd rather either be totally alone or totally engaged in whatever's happening, and not somewhere in the middle (unsuccessfully) trying to make something actually happen.


Nothing went on and this whole day I was either solving math or walking to places and taking care of stuff so my legs are killing me lol


----------



## orbit

If you switch to twenty posts to a page, this thread doesn't look as big c:


----------



## fair phantom

shinynotshiny said:


> I'll never understand guests. What do these guys do?


Yeah. I understand it on the informational threads and _guess the type?_. I used to go there before joining to learn and to compare my interpretations of characters/people with others. but here?


----------



## Dangerose

shinynotshiny said:


> I'll never understand guests. What do these guys do?


After you were just talking about how you like to lurk incognito on threads...)


----------



## 68097

My discussion about that thread with my mom:

Me: "So, what if all the people you argued with on a regular basis were all arguing with each other on a thread. What would you do?"

Her: "Sit and laugh."

Me: "Exactly. With popcorn."
@hoopla: yes, I came back around to Fe pretty quickly. I'm very ... ethically objective. Always have been.



hoopla said:


> Try not to compare yourself to others too much. I get along with some SFJs and really can't stand others.


TELL ME ABOUT IT. Some people drive. me. nuts.



> Why [not ESFJ]?


I can't jive with it. Not only do I not get along with the majority of them very well, we're different. 

How are we different?

They respond to things quicker; I have to process them first.
They are emotional responders; I am often not. Everything with me is delayed -- sometimes five minutes, sometimes 6 months.
They frame everything through Fe, and I just... don't. Half the time, Fe is unconscious and skipped over, as I head straight for my thinking function.
They drain me, when I'm around them; I don't feed off them, I am exhausted by them. 
And, I can't relate to inferior Ti. At all.

LOL @ the Kristen Bell video. She's such a dork. Though, Ellen was kind of mean to make her cry in front of people.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

PsychElGambino said:


> [/B]Um, because I wrote it? And combining the conscious mind sounds a lot more 'spiritual' than 'sci-fi' to me anyway. Depends on who thinks of it, and their interests I suppose. You know?


I was fixated on the cloning aspect, so lol.



PsychElGambino said:


> Yes, exactly. She has an on and off feel to her. Light switch; sometimes she's there, sometimes she isn't. A bit like me, really. Sometimes I am the most intelligent person in the room [yes, there are others there], and sometimes I have the thought process of a rock. A big, dead rock.


Yin yang.



PsychElGambino said:


> Gambino?! I'm Chavez, Ma'am!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Yes. My first gif. And quite ironic how it ties in with below v]


I can't keep up with your spiritual psychological experiments. My bad.




PsychElGambino said:


> The war? Mostly between my head, and heart. I know I want to do the right thing, but my head doesn't want me to be 'weak' or get 'hurt' doing so. It wants me to think about things, but my heart just wants me to help. My head is using logic against my heart, and my heart is using persuasion against my head. They're brothers at war. Josemi and Dorito [for real]. Only more dark.


I love people who understand this. It's such a tedious, taxing thing. I try to merge the two opposing forces together but life doesn't always work that way. You want to make a wise, logical decision, but it will hurt those around you or cause an atmospheric war, so then you don't know what to do. Do what makes sense, or keep quiet so people aren't mad at you? Tough love, or the complicated route to ease and warm hearts? -_-



PsychElGambino said:


> mine has issues with [don't laugh] paracetamol. I think she's addicted to them. She always seems to have a sore head. And she always seems to use them as a mask to mask her pain. In a sense, I guess it's more psychological than anything.


I didn't laugh.

This made me laugh (warning: a very unorthodox method of drug abuse depicted):






I hope your mother can sort herself out. I'm a psychopathic asshole but I always preferred dealing with friends who had issues with pills (had a few in HS) than... family members because it was easier to deal with. Substance abuse issues are not fun and sometimes there is not much you can do. 



PsychElGambino said:


> She isn't even that civil. Seriously. She acts like a crazy, psychotic lady a lot of the time. Most of the time, she storms off, and tries to emotionally blackmail us. My Dad is immune to it, so are we all. We know she is being childish, it's irritating.


How has he not filed divorce papers?

Ha, I kid. I wish I was immune to it. I'm really not. When I'm finally out of college and finically able to support myself I plan to be estranged from my mother for awhile. If I ever made a mistake, for instance, she would yell at me. I would get extremely awkward and over apologize, or flinch, or even hyperventilate, because I crack under pressure. Pissed her off even more. She would tell me I have something wrong with me, or that I have problems with my thinking. I still worry, deep down, she thinks I'm slow or unintelligent. Once when I was maybe 16 I made a mistake during Thanksgiving dinner. She tossed the meal away and remade it herself even though I had the capacity to fix it. She was so upset. "*HOW ARE YOU EVER GOING TO LIVE ON YOUR OWN ALEXIS THERE IS TOTALY SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING FOR YOURSELF!"*. I knew she was talking out of anger, but my tears were sweet, salty, and enough to fill an irrigation well. That's one example of the conflict we face. 

I just don't handle her anger well. I know it's childish or that she doesn't even mean it, but I'm still a baby. We need a long stretch of distance. I just can't afford it right now. I don't live with her but in the same area... so we still talk. We use each other, essentially.

Either way sorry for your struggles because parental issues blow.



PsychElGambino said:


> All I can say.. is look up


So helpful. -_-

I'm teasing.


----------



## ScientiaOmnisEst

Oh my God, so many people changed usernames and avatars (I'm one of them, so I can't really complain too much).

We're typing @angelcat I see. Honestly, totally-non-stereotypical-ISFJ seemed to fit jut fine based on how you tend to describe yourself.




OvalCat said:


> How many people here believe in loop theory?


I'm inclined to believe there's something to it. It does provide a working explanation for behavior (unhealthy and not) that doesn't seem to fall within the expectations of a particular type's stack, without calling the typing itself into question.




shinynotshiny said:


> Do you mean the socionics threads.
> 
> They are so full of drama, I kind of love it.



Mine got revived and hijacked into a book discussion. :s


----------



## Pressed Flowers

shinynotshiny said:


> I'll never understand guests. What do these guys do?


Study us.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Gosh, going to the dentist is crazy. I always get into a debate with my mom where I explain that to some people having sparkling teeth is not a top priority, and she then tries to condemn me for not worshipping my body. And I guess it's my Si POLR.... but gosh, it's so hard when you and your mom have opposing values like that. I want to change the world. Yeah, white teeth will help with that, but it's certainly only a thing that occupies my mind twice a year when I get a cleaning.


----------



## Deadly Decorum

Pressed Flowers said:


> Gosh, going to the dentist is crazy. I always get into a debate with my mom where I explain that to some people having sparkling teeth is not a top priority, and she then tries to condemn me for not worshipping my body. And I guess it's my Si POLR.... but gosh, it's so hard when you and your mom have opposing values like that. I want to change the world. Yeah, white teeth will help with that, but it's certainly only a thing that occupies my mind twice a year when I get a cleaning.


I hate it when people think white teeth are a sign of taking care of yourself. It's not that simple, guys. 

In fact... it's A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. Teeth are supposed to be more cream in color. 

If you're going to change the world... change our obsession with white teeth.


----------



## Immolate

Princess Langwidere said:


> After you were just talking about how you like to lurk incognito on threads...)



But with a purpose.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Random question here (which may or may not be function related). 

Let's say someone is doing a page of their math homework, and they are pretty good at it! They show all their work, and it is very clear. But to be able to do this, they have to be uninterrupted, and stay focused on the flow of the steps etc. The only way they can do this, is by literally talking the problem through. Out loud, step by step. Their family walks by their room and hears soft spoken, yet "A Beautiful Mind"-like energy and words, to peak in and find it's just them doing homework lol. This person has a harder time with tests, because they are unable to talk the problems through orally to themselves. Same with all subjects really. 

Which function would this point to, if any?

Also, AFTER watching my videos, would anyone here still say Fe or SFJ?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

hoopla said:


> I hate it when people think white teeth are a sign of taking care of yourself. It's not that simple, guys.
> 
> In fact... it's A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. Teeth are supposed to be more cream in color.
> 
> If you're going to change the world... change our obsession with white teeth.


I was thinking about that, while also contemplating how terrible but temporary pain is, as a giant piece of paper was wedged into my mouth. This building shouldn't even be here. What is our society doing. Did all of these women actually go to college so they could clean teeth? Does this provide them satisfaction? 

But... I don't know. I get it. Some people really value teeth. And money. But I just can't feel it. That's not my passion. And I'm okay with people having different passions from mine, but it still annoys me when I live with a mother who thinks her values (which include Teeth, Family, Home, Hard Work, Honesty, Loyalty [to family, solely], Cleanliness..) are the end-all reasons for life. And who thinks I am just a Messed Up Person for having different thoughts about life and my own purpose in the world. 

Sometimes it just seems so desolate. Like I'll always be her shadow. This is why I need to get out of this town. Part of it anyway.


----------



## fair phantom

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Mine got revived and hijacked into a book discussion. :s


*perks up* book discussion?



hoopla said:


> I hate it when people think white teeth are a sign of taking care of yourself. It's not that simple, guys.
> 
> In fact... it's A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. Teeth are supposed to be more cream in color.
> 
> If you're going to change the world... change our obsession with white teeth.


It's also classist.

Let's just say for various reasons, mostly money, I haven't been to the dentist much. So my teeth aren't the best. And I keep hearing people talk about how unattractive that is and I become so self-conscious. I barely ever show my teeth when I smile in pictures.


----------



## Rebel Sheep

Well screw you guys, I love brushing/flossing my teeth

Hype Train


----------



## Dangerose

Paradise Rain said:


> Random question here (which may or may not be function related).
> 
> Let's say someone is doing a page of their math homework, and they are pretty good at it! They show all their work, and it is very clear. But to be able to do this, they have to be uninterrupted, and stay focused on the flow of the steps etc. The only way they can do this, is by literally talking the problem through. Out loud, step by step. Their family walks by their room and hears soft spoken, yet "A Beautiful Mind"-like energy and words, to peak in and find it's just them doing homework lol. This person has a harder time with tests, because they are unable to talk the problems through orally to themselves. Same with all subjects really.
> 
> Which function would this point to, if any?
> 
> Also, AFTER watching my videos, would anyone here still say Fe or SFJ?


Is this one of your children? I would think being on the autism spectrum might create some of this behavior, could be wrong but there seems to be a correlation.
Otherwise...I don't know. I know that when I'm alone I will generally say math problems out loud, sing a bit, seems to help or maybe just assuage boredom. Maybe offsets inferior Ti.


----------



## fair phantom

Pressed Flowers said:


> There definitely is something to be done about it. Psychological terms often change, especially when the term used is inappropriate. I am saying that this is one of those terms that _must_ be changed, lest it remain standing as another post of psychiatry's ignorance of the truth of humanity


Yep. "Hysteria" used to be a common diagnosis. Today the term is rarely used in this way. Psychological terms can and ought to change as our understanding of the human mind changes.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> There definitely is something to be done about it. Psychological terms often change, especially when the term used is inappropriate. I am saying that this is one of those terms that _must_ be changed, lest it remain standing as another post of psychiatry's ignorance of the truth of humanity.
> 
> And it does impact things. Terms influence how people perceive things, especially people that work in the mental health field. People have been told that they are internally flawed, that there is something wrong with them as people. They have been treated as if they are inferior because their personality is abnormal. Of course a lot of that is independent - ableism in psychiatry exists due to many variables - but I think changing the term would be a wonderful first step to addressing the discrimination against people diagnosed with personality disorders.
> 
> And again, I'm not saying they are not real. Personality disorders are real. They are what is said of them. But people do not have _disordered personalities_, and the very thought that they are is ridiculously untrue and dehumanizing.


Do you have a term which _isn't_ dehumanizing? That's the entire point, to identify something different to the norm, and to draw attention to it. What's wrong is what people make of it, not the term itself. Changing the term does absolutely nothing besides render years of scientific texts meaningless. Maybe I just have a different perspective on this than you.


----------



## Barakiel

Shame Spiral said:


> Could have something to do with cognition... although at the same time, it's a matter of preferences too, which doesn't rely solely on cognition. I'm thinking it could have to do with what you relate to also. I mean, I can't relate to something that is pure sky, and I'm not sure anyone can, but some might aspire to it. Hm.


It's more that I just can't comprehend what she's saying. I'm used to skipping over words when I read, because my brain works fast, but I can't do that here. I can read what she says, but the message doesn't get through. :frustrating:



Shame Spiral said:


> Grave of Fireflies made me cry so hard, and I don't usually cry much when watching stuff to be honest. For what that is worth.
> 
> (And now I'm late, but oh well)


I'm not used to crying out of sadness, per say, but admiration. But hey, I'm defective. :wink:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Do you have a term which _isn't_ dehumanizing? That's the entire point, to identify something different to the norm, and to draw attention to it. What's wrong is what people make of it, not the term itself. Changing the term does absolutely nothing besides render years of scientific texts meaningless. Maybe I just have a different perspective on this than you.


You are not getting this. That second to last sentence is completely invalid. 

It's an incorrect term. 

My friend with NPD comes to me and somberly explains, "I know why it's called a personality disorder now. Because everything about me is Narcissism. It is who I am. There is nothing about me not narcissistic." 

And if that were true, then yes. Calling it a Personality Disorder would be _very_ accurate. 

But it's not true. I know this girl. She's one of my favorite people. I love her. There is so much more to her than narcissism. She loves to write. She loves her friends. She wants to change the world. Does narcissism climb into those aspects of her? Yes. It's a fungus, in that way, clinging to her personality. But it is _not_ her personality, which is what "personality disorder" implies. 

And, yes, Barakiel. I could think of so many terms that are not nearly as dehumanizing as the term "personality disorder". But that is irrelevant. 

You've shown that you do not understand, and I am growing frustrated by your misunderstanding in a very unhealthy way for me, so I would appreciate it if we refrain from discussing this further at this point. As I've said, I won't budge, but this is not one of those things like my belief in people's goodness that I don't mind discussing with people who disagree. This is an issue that seriously hurts people, but you can't see it and trying to explain something that is so obvious and defend against a belief that is so infinitely harmful is something I cannot do without injuring myself. Which I would very much prefer not to do tonight.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> You are not getting this. That last sentence is completely invalid.
> 
> It's an incorrect term.
> 
> My friend with NPD comes to me and somberly explains, "I know why it's called a personality disorder now. Because everything about me is Narcissism. It is who I am. There is nothing about me not narcissistic."
> 
> And if that were true, then yes. Calling it a Personality Disorder would be _very_ accurate.
> 
> But it's not true. I know this girl. She's one of my favorite people. I love her. There is so much more to her than narcissism. She loves to write. She loves her friends. She wants to change the world. Does narcissism climb into those aspects of her? Yes. It's a fungus, in that way, clinging to her personality. But it is _not_ her personality, which is what "personality disorder" implies.
> 
> And, yes, Barakiel. I could think of so many terms that are not nearly as dehumanizing as the term "personality disorder". But that is irrelevant.
> 
> You've shown that you do not understand, and I am growing frustrated by your misunderstanding in a very unhealthy way for me, so I would appreciate it if we refrain from discussing this further at this point. As I've said, I won't budge, but this is not one of those things like my belief in people's goodness that I don't mind discussing with people who disagree. This is an issue that seriously hurts people, but you can't see it and trying to explain something that is so obvious and defend against a belief that is so infinitely harmful is something I cannot do without injuring myself. Which I would very much prefer not to do tonight.


Ah, so you consider it like that. Right then. Well, I'm not at all attached to this topic, so I'm fine agreeing to disagree, although I do feel a bit miffed at myself with not understanding something _again_, this is getting rather annoying.

I suppose I don't consider it that harmful. Does it describe you? If yes, you are. If no, then not. And you should be able to fight anyone who tries to degrade you because of your flaws.


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> Ah, so you consider it like that. Right then. Well, I'm not at all attached to this topic, so I'm fine agreeing to disagree, although I do feel a bit miffed at myself with not understanding something _again_, this is getting rather annoying.
> 
> I suppose I don't consider it that harmful. Does it describe you? If yes, you are. If no, then not. And you should be able to fight anyone who tries to degrade you because of your flaws.


... What happens if you aren't able to stop those who degrade? 

/rhetorical question because the discussion is over...


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Ah, so you consider it like that. Right then. Well, I'm not at all attached to this topic, so I'm fine agreeing to disagree, although I do feel a bit miffed at myself with not understanding something _again_, this is getting rather annoying.
> 
> I suppose I don't consider it that harmful. Does it describe you? If yes, you are. If no, then not. And you should be able to fight anyone who tries to degrade you because of your flaws.


It's... I don't know. I can see how you wouldn't see it as harmful, but that's one of those things that we all have... ignorance of what's there. There is a lot of harm done to people through psychiatry. And a lot of it stems from the DSM (the manual that labels these disorders, describes them, and names them). It's something that I can't show, but... It's there. There are countless stories online, stories that break my heart just because they exist. There are entire corners in Tumblr dedicated to people who have been scarred by psychiatry, communities. And, trust me, where you can't see it there are most certainly people _right now_ who are suffering immeasurably from psychiatry. And there is at least one person who is suffering because the person hurting them has this idea stemmed from the false label "personality disorder" that assures them that the person they are hurting is not human. 

That's why it upsets me. Because it's hurting people right now, and, due to my helplessness at not being able to explain to others why it is so bad, due to my helplessness as a 19-year old English Major, and due to the fact that not many people have realized how harmful this term is, nothing will happen about it. And this will continue long into the future. 

Ultimately, you're right. There is nothing we can do about it. But it still makes me ache.


----------



## Barakiel

OvalCat said:


> ... What happens if you aren't able to stop those who degrade?
> 
> /rhetorical question because the discussion is over...


How would you not be able to? Leave them. Make yourself someone to be respected. Don't care about their opinion. There are many different routes to this. And, sorry, but even if it's a rhetorical question, it deserves an answer. :wink:


----------



## orbit

Barakiel said:


> How would you not be able to? Leave them. Make yourself someone to be respected. Don't care about their opinion. There are many different routes to this. And, sorry, but even if it's a rhetorical question, it deserves an answer. :wink:


Oh yes all that poor African American girl should have just left the cop when she got shoved against the police car. She should make heself respected even though she already was someone to be respected. She was capable of that. I'm pretty sure that girl cared about that cop's opinion of her in that situation when he was hurting her.


----------



## Barakiel

OvalCat said:


> Oh yes all that poor African American girl should have just left the cop when she got shoved against the police car. She should make heself respected even though she already was someone to be respected. She was capable of that. I'm pretty sure that girl cared about that cop's opinion of her in that situation when he was hurting her.


That's rather out of context, considering we were talking about psychological issues impacting your social life. :dry:


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> It's... I don't know. I can see how you wouldn't see it as harmful, but that's one of those things that we all have... ignorance of what's there. There is a lot of harm done to people through psychiatry. And a lot of it stems from the DSM (the manual that labels these disorders, describes them, and names them). It's something that I can't show, but... It's there. There are countless stories online, stories that break my heart just because they exist. There are entire corners in Tumblr dedicated to people who have been scarred by psychiatry, communities. And, trust me, where you can't see it there are most certainly people _right now_ who are suffering immeasurably from psychiatry. And there is at least one person who is suffering because the person hurting them has this idea stemmed from the false label "personality disorder" that assures them that the person they are hurting is not human.
> 
> That's why it upsets me. Because it's hurting people right now, and, due to my helplessness at not being able to explain to others why it is so bad, due to my helplessness as a 19-year old English Major, and due to the fact that not many people have realized how harmful this term is, nothing will happen about it. And this will continue long into the future.
> 
> Ultimately, you're right. There is nothing we can do about it. But it still makes me ache.


It's part ignorance, yes, but it's also because of this, frankly, childish belief I have that people can surpass themselves. We've seen a blind man become a musician, a paraplegic becoming a scientific legend, all different tales. You'll most certainly be hurt by psychiatry if you're one of the ones shunned by it, but growing past that is one of the beauties of life.

Yes, there's nothing we can do about it, really. But I admire your resolve not to give up. :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> The past is the past. Legends aren't important, but the message they portray is. And in that respect, the classical tales kind of fail hard. As long as Disney tells good stories and good messages, I'm completely fine with them subverting classical tropes and twisting old stories.


@e veryone

Barakiel and I are having some sort of huge disconnect. I think it has to be cognition related because I have explained myself clearly and he keeps coming back with sentences that are not at all referring to sentences I've said. He also has expressed our inability to communicate. I think he is taking everything 100% more literally than I meant it. I have this same disconnect with other people. We need to analyze this and figure out what is going on, it could say something about our types.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> That's rather out of context, considering we were talking about psychological issues impacting your social life. :dry:


Um, no. You really do not get this. People within the psychiatric system cannot escape. They cannot just escape. It's not just a matter of one person treating them like crap, something they can walk away from, it's a matter of them being in some cases (in too many cases) enslaved to the system that dehumanizes them, and too often when they are out of the system, not literally restrained and imprisoned, they still lose so much personal autonomy. So much that you would not believe, that you cannot fathom. 

It's difficult for you to understand if you are hearing this for the first time. But you really do not understand what psychiatric abuse is, the harm that psychiatry is capable of, and the harm that psychiatry is most unfortunately currently engaged in.


----------



## fair phantom

I've finally gotten around to reading that thread mentioned earlier and omg....


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> @e veryone
> 
> Barakiel and I are having some sort of huge disconnect. I think it has to be cognition related because I have explained myself clearly and he keeps coming back with sentences that are not at all referring to sentences I've said. He also has expressed our inability to communicate. I think he is taking everything 100% more literally than I meant it. I have this same disconnect with other people. We need to analyze this and figure out what is going on, it could say something about our types.


I think @Barakiel took the word "pure" to mean something different from what you meant. Possibly his higher Se being literal?


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> I've finally gotten around to reading that thread mentioned earlier and omg....


What did I miss?!


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> @e veryone
> 
> Barakiel and I are having some sort of huge disconnect. I think it has to be cognition related because I have explained myself clearly and he keeps coming back with sentences that are not at all referring to sentences I've said. He also has expressed our inability to communicate. I think he is taking everything 100% more literally than I meant it. I have this same disconnect with other people. We need to analyze this and figure out what is going on, it could say something about our types.


Oh, please, investigate away, this'll definitely be fun! :laughing:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

fair phantom said:


> I've finally gotten around to reading that thread mentioned earlier and omg....


I read the first post and, oh my gosh. How in the world did it go from that to that? How is it possible to get heated from that OP? I would comment that but I'm not sure it would come across kindly.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Oh, please, investigate away, this'll definitely be fun! :laughing:


What did you think she meant by "pure"?


----------



## 68097

Paradise Rain said:


> I was so sure that everyone was gonna see me as "ESFJ! ESFJ! ESFJ!" in the videos , because I am so used to it by now (something tells me you still lean that way).... I was shocked when every person that did comment said Fi. And I find it funny how this kind of ties into this topic, because after all this time... I finally got the Fi-consesus... BUT.. I am still not sure lol. Honestly, I think my Ne (wherever it is), is just so damn stubborn, and is playing devils advocate in my head... non stop. "Yes, you are def Fi... the descriptions all point to it. There is no way around it."... " Well actually... you know 'this' part of your life? Yeah, that's Fe. and this? Yeah, could be both... but that doesn't mean its 'not' Fe..."..... "BUUUUT, even that Fe thing, is still from an Fis stand point. Yeah. Nope, Fi-central!". I basically mind-f*** myself daily.


I still think you are SFJ, yes. Though in fairness, I did not watch much of your video since my company had arrived, and I'm a rubbish visual typist anyway. But if you want a frank, unassuming view on it, reblog it and tag Entropic and arkigos, if you haven't already. 

Ne can cause typing confusion. Ti can also be problematic in that it insists on analyzing everything over and over again (with Si), hence why I waffle on my type from time to time -- including this morning. I know what I am, and yet the opinions of others (Fe) and my own restless inferior Ne can cause me to doubt it, and turn to others for validation (more Fe in me, lol). In my experience, the lower the Ne, the more typing confusion there is.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

hoopla said:


> Of course she is exaggerated, so thank God. She reminds me a lot of Rarity from My Little Pony... another character I cannot stand. I like Pinkie Pie though! (...actually... hated her initially but she grew on me! Twi was my fav from the start). What I like about MLP is it's a good example of how ESFJs can be different, as they are both ESFJs (I don't care what anyone says; Pinkie is not ENFP). Both are about theatrics, but Pinkie just wants fun... and Rarity is more of a prissy sort, like Charlotte. I have never met anyone as frenetic as Charlotte... but close... and they tax me, if I'm being honest.


I agree, both Rarity and Pinkie seem like ESFJs. I could see Pinkie being more... ESE-Fe in Socionics, perhaps, making her more Fe-Ne?
MLP is pretty Fe in general I'd say.



Pressed Flowers said:


> Oh my gosh. I am always looking at people for reactions when I watch things. It's part of my experience. Fe?


Hmm, I do that too. Well, not ALWAYS. Depends on how interested in the other person too. But the thing is, even if I don't care about the reactions of whoever I watch it with, I can still daydream to imagine someone else's reaction. One of those things that make me wonder if I'm Fe after all, yeah. I'm not sure I do it in the same way a Fe user might do it though, hmm...



Barakiel said:


> It's more that I just can't comprehend what she's saying. I'm used to skipping over words when I read, because my brain works fast, but I can't do that here. I can read what she says, but the message doesn't get through. :frustrating:


Yeah, it does seem like some cognitive conflict going on. Now I'm not entirely sure what to make of that, though, as I'm not sure if Princess seems more Si or Ni to me, but at least I can say you don't seem like a Si-ego I guess. :V

(Of course, now that I'm finally caught up again I can see this has already been suggested. =P)


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> What did you think she meant by "pure"?


Stereotypical. Formulaic. Not at all subversive of trends set by themselves a long time ago. I get the feeling she despises the new iterations like Maleficent and Snow White and the Huntsman.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Barakiel said:


> Stereotypical. Formulaic. Not at all subversive of trends set by themselves a long time ago. I get the feeling she despises the new iterations like Maleficent and Snow White and the Huntsman.


Haha, I actually wasn't too crazy about Maleficent myself (but it felt kind of formulaic as well, in its own way). :frustrating: Didn't watch the other movie.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Um, no. You really do not get this. People within the psychiatric system cannot escape. They cannot just escape. It's not just a matter of one person treating them like crap, something they can walk away from, it's a matter of them being in some cases (in too many cases) enslaved to the system that dehumanizes them, and too often when they are out of the system, not literally restrained and imprisoned, they still lose so much personal autonomy. So much that you would not believe, that you cannot fathom.
> 
> It's difficult for you to understand if you are hearing this for the first time. But you really do not understand what psychiatric abuse is, the harm that psychiatry is capable of, and the harm that psychiatry is most unfortunately currently engaged in.


 Well, if I don't get it after all this, then it's never going to come. Maybe I have to induce it or whatever, but that's for another time.


----------



## galactic collision

fair phantom said:


> I've finally gotten around to reading that thread mentioned earlier and omg....


What thread is this? I just woke up from a nap that accidentally became 9 hours long... so I missed a lot


----------



## Barakiel

Shame Spiral said:


> Haha, I actually wasn't too crazy about Maleficent myself (but it felt kind of formulaic as well, in its own way). :frustrating: Didn't watch the other movie.


I actually really liked Maleficent, but I'm a huge fan of sympathetic villains, and Angelina Jolie was perfect for the role she was cast as. :laughing:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

just for the spark said:


> What thread is this? I just woke up from a nap that accidentally became 9 hours long... so I missed a lot


Gotta love those naps that ends up lasting hours longer than planned, right? :V


----------



## 68097

Barakiel said:


> Stereotypical. Formulaic. Not at all subversive of trends set by themselves a long time ago. I get the feeling she despises the new iterations like Maleficent and Snow White and the Huntsman.


_Maleficent_ was magnificent. I love it that they inverted the entire story. and made the villain the heroine. They took a superficial original incarnation and filled it with symbolism, meaning, moral lessons, and feminism. Utterly marvelous. I'm still a bit irked that one of my friends refuses to watch it, on the grounds that it changes too much from the animated film. They are two separate things. Liking one does not devalue the other.


----------



## galactic collision

Shame Spiral said:


> Gotta love those naps that ends up lasting hours longer than planned, right? :V


Yep. Work got canceled, and I only got 2 hours of sleep last night, so I was okay with playing a bit of catch-up with sleep.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> Stereotypical. Formulaic. Not at all subversive of trends set by themselves a long time ago. I get the feeling she despises the new iterations like Maleficent and Snow White and the Huntsman.


I interpreted her meaning as something closer to "archetypal". Closer to the style of the oral tales, Marchen, which could often be quite subversive btw.

@Princess Langwidere what did you mean?


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> Well, if I don't get it after all this, then it's never going to come. Maybe I have to induce it or whatever, but that's for another time.


I don't understand what you're saying. 

Knowledge and understanding takes time. I have personally devoted basically my entire summer to _feeling literature_. I have read my entire life. I love literature. I've read a considerable amount of it already. But I still don't _know_ it. To me at least, and I think this has a bit to do with Ni, comprehension takes time. I don't understand the gyre, but I know someday I will be looking at a playground or _something_, who knows what, and I will suddenly go, "Oh! I completely understand the gyre now!" 

Of course I do not expect you to devote a season of your life to comprehending social justice, but I know that's quite how social justice hit me. I didn't understand it. Oh, I read about it. Racism... sexism... homophobia, even... That's what they called it, but it didn't feel that _serious_ to me. Maybe it was out there... maybe... maybe a little.. but certainly not as much as everyone said it was! 

But I didn't understand. I didn't even try to understand. I can't even remember when it started to hit me that things were right, what started peeling my eyes open to the reality of the world in the sphere of social injustice. But it did, even when I wasn't looking for it. 

Learning is like that. You may not understand this now, but in no way does that mean you will never understand. Comprehension takes time. Rushed comprehension often brings incorrect comprehension.


----------



## galactic collision

Oh, a funny thing happened! I just retook an enneagram test because I was like, "This will be fun, now that I'm pretty 100% on my core type" and the test was like, "You're most likely SO 3w2" LOL

not the first time I've gotten that. pretty much every time I've ever taken the test I've gotten an image type as a result. usually either 4w3 or 3w2.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm having a classic 9 problem where I know what I need to do - I need to write my essay, finish reading this book, put the laundry in, and write the essay for the book I just finished - but I can't bring myself to do it. Movement seems too terrible. I know I'll feel better once I do it... but it's too hard for me to start sometimes. I've been putting off this stupid essay for weeks now. It's terrible.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Barakiel said:


> I actually really liked Maleficent, but I'm a huge fan of sympathetic villains, and Angelina Jolie was perfect for the role she was cast as. :laughing:


I do think it's interesting to explore villains and make them more sympathetic as well, but I felt it was done a bit cheaply in Maleficent, by making the good characters such as the fairies bad or stupid to make Maleficent look better in comparison. Know what I mean? And it's especially a shame, because I thought in the original Disney movie, while Sleeping Beauty herself was pretty dull, the fairies were decent characters. Also, since the relationship between Maleficent and Beauty is kind of a big deal, they could have used this as an opportunity to give her more character development as well, but she still doesn't have much personality, which is sad. 

And I don't feel like making the villain sympathetic is that original or subversive anymore, so it makes me more critical since it's made out to be so.^^;


----------



## Pressed Flowers

I'm a bit out of this fairy tale discussion, 

But I would be upset by Maleficient for example if Sleeping Beauty was a story important to me and they completely twisted what was most important about it. If they missed the essence. That would be impure to me. Like my hatred of The Giver movie. I would have been alright with it, alright if they changed things... but they missed the essence, that thing filling the story and bursting out of it, they all completely missed the essence, and that's what hurt me. I wonder if that's not what PL means by impure? (Again, I don't even know what happened in this discussion at all.)


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> I don't understand what you're saying.
> 
> Knowledge and understanding takes time. I have personally devoted basically my entire summer to _feeling literature_. I have read my entire life. I love literature. I've read a considerable amount of it already. But I still don't _know_ it. To me at least, and I think this has a bit to do with Ni, comprehension takes time. I don't understand the gyre, but I know someday I will be looking at a playground or _something_, who knows what, and I will suddenly go, "Oh! I completely understand the gyre now!"
> 
> Of course I do not expect you to devote a season of your life to comprehending social justice, but I know that's quite how social justice hit me. I didn't understand it. Oh, I read about it. Racism... sexism... homophobia, even... That's what they called it, but it didn't feel that _serious_ to me. Maybe it was out there... maybe... maybe a little.. but certainly not as much as everyone said it was!
> 
> But I didn't understand. I didn't even try to understand. I can't even remember when it started to hit me that things were right, what started peeling my eyes open to the reality of the world in the sphere of social injustice. But it did, even when I wasn't looking for it.
> 
> Learning is like that. You may not understand this now, but in no way does that mean you will never understand. Comprehension takes time. Rushed comprehension often brings incorrect comprehension.


It's different to my situation with @Princess Langwidere, where I couldn't comprehend her main point. Here, I can comprehend your point, I just consider the problems I personally went through, a matter of course, and that's the main way I can understand things. Inducing is how I do that. :happy:


----------



## fair phantom

Shame Spiral said:


> I agree, both Rarity and Pinkie seem like ESFJs. I could see Pinkie being more... ESE-Fe in Socionics, perhaps, making her more Fe-Ne?
> MLP is pretty Fe in general I'd say.


Pinkie can be oddly Fi at times. Look at how she reacted when they went to that town where everyone seemed happy but they had no individuality. Her reaction to the situation was visceral and negative.

That said, for awhile she was my least favourite because TOO MUCH. (I like her now), and the whole Smile song (which is now stuck in my head) kinda screams Fe.

I know @hoopla hates her, but I love Rarity.



> Hmm, I do that too. Well, not ALWAYS. Depends on how interested in the other person too. But the thing is, even if I don't care about the reactions of whoever I watch it with, I can still daydream to imagine someone else's reaction. One of those things that make me wonder if I'm Fe after all, yeah. I'm not sure I do it in the same way a Fe user might do it though, hmm...


Sounds more like yours is out of curiosity because you want to know how people work, where it seems like Fe is looking for shared feeling?


----------



## Persephone Soul

Paradise Rain said:


> I caught him playin the Minions on the pot...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What me and the Hubbs like to do while alone....


Ehhh... here @angelcat . Give it a go...? I feel like it was more F-oriented, but didn't say much. Especially on the perceiving end of things.


----------



## Barakiel

angelcat said:


> _Maleficent_ was magnificent. I love it that they inverted the entire story. and made the villain the heroine. They took a superficial original incarnation and filled it with symbolism, meaning, moral lessons, and feminism. Utterly marvelous. I'm still a bit irked that one of my friends refuses to watch it, on the grounds that it changes too much from the animated film. They are two separate things. Liking one does not devalue the other.


... I don't understand how that would affect her enjoyment of the new movie. Like you said, liking one thing doesn't devalue the other. I think I like it, not because it represents feminism, but because it does away with the outdated traditions of Disney. A prince doesn't save the princess, the villain does, filled with regret. It's why I like Frozen's climax so much, the prince/male lead does *nothing* to contribute to the resolution, in fact, he arguably harms it. :happy:


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Barakiel said:


> It's different to my situation with @Princess Langwidere, where I couldn't comprehend her main point. Here, I can comprehend your point, I just consider the problems I personally went through, a matter of course, and that's the main way I can understand things. Inducing is how I do that. :happy:


If you are referring to the ableism you experienced from having a speech impediment, that is nothing like psychiatric abuse. Not even close. It is illogical to assume something does not exist because you have not experienced it. Even if you have been within psychiatry, even if you have been impacted by it, your positive experience does not mean that there are not catastrophic experiences with it. That makes no sense.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Barakiel said:


> I highly doubt Maleficent was meant as an adaptation, rather a retelling. Yes there's a difference. :wink:


Yeah I know, I was saying I think it's worse if it's an adaptation. So I don't mind that Maleficent changes stuff, just that some of the stuff they did felt kinda cheap, etc.



Princess Langwidere said:


> Yep yep yep, it's been done to death honestly. I didn't love Maleficent. I didn't hate it. It felt forced. "True love's kiss isn't a boy and a girl, it's a godmother and a daughter!" Like....ok...cool I guess? I felt like it was supposed to be a huge deal which... On the one hand, I still liked it because Sleeping Beauty remained as the ...saving grace, if you will. And the beginning was lovely. I felt like it could have been done better. I didn't feel like the Stefan/Maleficent arc was sufficiently resolved (or maybe I'm not remembering it well).


Hm, I still kind of liked that twist, though I feel it's similar to how it was done in Frozen for example. Still, I think it's fine because Sleeping Beauty and the prince didn't even know each other, whereas she had years to develop a bond with Maleficent so it makes sense the love between them was deeper. It's just disappointing that they still couldn't give her some more development, heh. Also, those fairies, wtf. Yeah I'm not getting over that. =P


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> But I still dislike the ending, as I've discussed before. Voldemort's spirit would have been relieved back together. He made mistakes. He ended lives. He terrorized an entire generation. He made poor Molly marry Arthur before she could think any better of it out of fear of him. Yet the thought of him being eternally perished makes my heart break. No one deserves that.
> 
> And that's why I feel he's a victim of circumstance in some ways. Even though he isn't? I feel as if not portraying him as that implies that he deserved such a fate, which is something I very much disagree with.


I couldn't disagree with you more.

Voldemort's ending is perfect. In the end, he has to die, because that's the one thing he's been running from his whole life. Also bear in mind that in DH he's like...in his 70s. COS was 50 years ago, and he was 15. By DH, he's 70 years old. A bit young to die of old age, but not unheard of.

But the best part about his ending is that it shows how human he is. In the books. The movie fucked it up. In the book, he falls to the ground with a thud, and it calls him Tom Riddle, and it drives the point home that in the end he was HUMAN. Partially because of his mortality - but yes. He dies like a man because that's all he was in the end. A man.

And why wouldn't he deserve such a fate? In the end, that's the exact fate that we all get. Death. Nothing more, nothing less. He wasn't even killed. He was just disarmed. His own spell backfired. His own selfishness backfired. And he died. Because he was a man, and that is what men do. And because he resisted death, and so his own death was also a poetic ending.

I do not understand your comment on Molly being forced to marry Arthur? Uh? She doesn't seem unhappy with him??? It's not like he held his wand up to her head and was like "SAY I DO" lol


----------



## Barakiel

Shame Spiral said:


> Yeah I know, I was saying I think it's worse if it's an adaptation. So I don't mind that Maleficent changes stuff, just that some of the stuff they did felt kinda cheap, etc.


Oh, of course, unfaithfulness to the original material isn't good, but if they add on it with stuff of equal value, it's fine in my eyes. And here, they did. :wink: As for the fairies, well, there was a certain thrill in seeing Umbridge getting rained on.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

Really got to write my essay soon. Gah. 

But 
@Princess Langwidere are the themes of the book HOND still excellent? I loved the movie because the themes were excellent, but after learning some about the book it felt like they were reduced. Especially Esmeralda's heroism and Quasimodo's humanity. That's not so, is it? 

Also, on Harry Potter, 

Merope is actually my favorite character. I mean I have a lot of favorite characters, but I most love Merope. I want to hug her forever. Yes, she was wrong to cast the spell... but she just wanted a shot at happiness. And she thought it would work out. We don't celebrate her as we do Lily, but shouldn't we? She died out of love for her son as well. Out of love for her son and his father. She had such a tragic end, her whole entire life, I feel the least we can do is remember her for it.


----------



## Barakiel

just for the spark said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more.
> 
> Voldemort's ending is perfect. In the end, he has to die, because that's the one thing he's been running from his whole life. Also bear in mind that in DH he's like...in his 70s. COS was 50 years ago, and he was 15. By DH, he's 70 years old. A bit young to die of old age, but not unheard of.
> 
> But the best part about his ending is that it shows how human he is. In the books. The movie fucked it up. In the book, he falls to the ground with a thud, and it calls him Tom Riddle, and it drives the point home that in the end he was HUMAN. Partially because of his mortality - but yes. He dies like a man because that's all he was in the end. A man.
> 
> And why wouldn't he deserve such a fate? In the end, that's the exact fate that we all get. Death. Nothing more, nothing less. He wasn't even killed. He was just disarmed. His own spell backfired. His own selfishness backfired. And he died. Because he was a man, and that is what men do. And because he resisted death, and so his own death was also a poetic ending.
> 
> I do not understand your comment on Molly being forced to marry Arthur? Uh? She doesn't seem unhappy with him??? It's not like he held his wand up to her head and was like "SAY I DO" lol


The movies and books had a different tone, what worked in the book wouldn't work in the movie. I do like the book more, because Harry completely taunts and deconstructs Voldemort's entire being, before proving that he was outsmarted. The movie had to have a more action filled climax, so they did.

As for Voldemort as a character, I can sympathize with his running from death, it's something I've had to deal with in the past. But the rest... no. Some people will just cause too much death and decay if they're left alive.


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> I elaborated up above, but you touched on another thing that hurts me so much about Harry Potter.
> 
> The implication that you need to be born of love to understand love.
> 
> It's awful. Totally awful. Being born to parents who hate each other in no way means you are made of hate. It doesn't mean you don't deserve to exist. The idea that Merope's tragedy and Tom Riddle (what, the third)'s apathy manifested in Voldemort and made him predisposed to be as he was is... ridiculous, simply ridiculous. It's one of those things that I can't believe was even considered for a story.
> 
> I suppose it ties into my greater distaste of the idea of "fate," but also just the specific implication that a child born of hate is destined to be of hatred is not only distasteful, but also harmful and absurd.


I agree.

Which is why I said I have problems with that narrative, but I still have to accept it as a part of the book before I can deconstruct it.

It's like how I don't believe in God, but I do believe that God is a real and strong part of the world of Les Miserables.

But I can also say that nothing exists in a vacuum and that what the people say is true of their own world doesn't have to be true of ours. Doesn't even have to necessarily be true of theirs. You just have to acknowledge that it was written to be before you can argue a different reading. Post-structuralism, or something


----------



## Pressed Flowers

just for the spark said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more.
> 
> Voldemort's ending is perfect. In the end, he has to die, because that's the one thing he's been running from his whole life. Also bear in mind that in DH he's like...in his 70s. COS was 50 years ago, and he was 15. By DH, he's 70 years old. A bit young to die of old age, but not unheard of.
> 
> But the best part about his ending is that it shows how human he is. In the books. The movie fucked it up. In the book, he falls to the ground with a thud, and it calls him Tom Riddle, and it drives the point home that in the end he was HUMAN. Partially because of his mortality - but yes. He dies like a man because that's all he was in the end. A man.
> 
> And why wouldn't he deserve such a fate? In the end, that's the exact fate that we all get. Death. Nothing more, nothing less. He wasn't even killed. He was just disarmed. His own spell backfired. His own selfishness backfired. And he died. Because he was a man, and that is what men do. And because he resisted death, and so his own death was also a poetic ending.
> 
> I do not understand your comment on Molly being forced to marry Arthur? Uh? She doesn't seem unhappy with him??? It's not like he held his wand up to her head and was like "SAY I DO" lol


Oh, no. I understand death. That was the only way for him to be contained and stop hurting others. 

I mean how his soul withered and died. Harry was allowed to move on. He could have gone to.. well, what I think we all assume is heaven. The good afterlife. But that piece of Voldemort was left to die. It was irreparable. 

I cannot stand that, that implication that anyone is irreparable. We know it is implied that that is to be Voldemort's fate once he dies - to cripple and suffer and not exist any longer, because he knew no love. 

He knew no love. That's correct. But I don't see why that means he shouldn't have his soul repaired and brought to the afterlife with the others. The thought makes me feel terrible, and squirm.

Edit: the Arthur thing is a joke, ha. I don't know, he just seems so silly to me. But they're happy together, which I find very nice.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Princess Langwidere said:


> I have to go but I want to add:
> what I want for childrens' fiction is different for what I want for adult fiction. Childrens' movies SHOULD have clear good characters and clear bad characters, they should be very pure, something the child can truly internalize. I like for adult fiction to be more complicated. Not to be divorced from essence, or to lose archetypes, but play around with things, show more reality, pit reality against the ideal, etc. For children it should be different.


Yeah, I don't really agree with that either. I don't think childrens' stories should be AS complex as an adult story, but I think they can still appreciate some shades of grey. I know I preferred that when I was a kid myself. 



> FOR INSTANCE
> I love the Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame. The book, the musical, etc. It's just perfect to me. It's not a childrens' story though, so the movie bothers me (though they did a pretty good job of making it more suitable for child audiences. Phoebus really did love Esmeralda, Frollo was pure evil). I feel like they could have lost the overt rape plot but whatever. Actually, they did a pretty good job. I don't love the animation though?


Oh, I liked the animation in that movie. I liked it quite a bit overall, just... those gargoyles. >_>;;



Pressed Flowers said:


> I elaborated up above, but you touched on another thing that hurts me so much about Harry Potter.
> 
> The implication that you need to be born of love to understand love.


That implication strikes me as rather disturbing as well.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

just for the spark said:


> I agree.
> 
> Which is why I said I have problems with that narrative, but I still have to accept it as a part of the book before I can deconstruct it.
> 
> It's like how I don't believe in God, but I do believe that God is a real and strong part of the world of Les Miserables.
> 
> But I can also say that nothing exists in a vacuum and that what the people say is true of their own world doesn't have to be true of ours. Doesn't even have to necessarily be true of theirs. You just have to acknowledge that it was written to be before you can argue a different reading. Post-structuralism, or something


My main problem is I have actually seen that applied to real life. The actual implication that those born of hatred are hatred. Ridiculous, stupid, yes, but it's something that I witnessed and something from what I saw a lot of people were in support of. The messages we sow must be cautiously grown, because people can misinterpret them and unfortunately do very harmful things with their misinterpretations.


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> Oh, no. I understand death. That was the only way for him to be contained and stop hurting others.
> 
> I mean how his soul withered and died. Harry was allowed to move on. He could have gone to.. well, what I think we all assume is heaven. The good afterlife. But that piece of Voldemort was left to die. It was irreparable.
> 
> I cannot stand that, that implication that anyone is irreparable. We know it is implied that that is to be Voldemort's fate once he dies - to cripple and suffer and not exist any longer, because he knew no love.
> 
> He knew no love. That's correct. But I don't see why that means he shouldn't have his soul repaired and brought to the afterlife with the others. The thought makes me feel terrible, and squirm.


That's not the interpretation I had of that moment, but I actually haven't reread the books in a while, so I can't tell you whether or not I think he deserved what he got in that sense. 

That said, the afterlife is really vague in Harry Potter, and there are a million interpretations. Yours is only one of them. When I read DH, I don't think I interpreted it as quite as harsh. But I was also not raised to really believe in heaven, and I don't know or care about redemption personally, so I don't mind the idea that he doesn't get to move "on." He made his own choice to destroy his own soul. He took a calculated risk - if he fragments his soul into pieces by killing people, he will never die. But if he does become mortal, he can't put his own soul back together.

Unless the rest of his soul, in pieces, also went to that Kings Cross world, that purgatory (if you will), and he has a chance of finding himself and getting to move on.

_That_ might be a sympathetic villain story worth reading.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

just for the spark said:


> That's not the interpretation I had of that moment, but I actually haven't reread the books in a while, so I can't tell you whether or not I think he deserved what he got in that sense.
> 
> That said, the afterlife is really vague in Harry Potter, and there are a million interpretations. Yours is only one of them. When I read DH, I don't think I interpreted it as quite as harsh. But I was also not raised to really believe in heaven, and I don't know or care about redemption personally, so I don't mind the idea that he doesn't get to move "on." He made his own choice to destroy his own soul. He took a calculated risk - if he fragments his soul into pieces by killing people, he will never die. But if he does become mortal, he can't put his own soul back together.
> 
> Unless the rest of his soul, in pieces, also went to that Kings Cross world, that purgatory (if you will), and he has a chance of finding himself and getting to move on.
> 
> _That_ might be a sympathetic villain story worth reading.


Hmm... I hadn't considered other interpretations? Given the Resurrection Stone, where Harry met those who had passed on, their words to him, King's Cross... Even on Tumblr, which I think is primarily atheist, there are so many AUs about the afterlife. Regardless personal beliefs, I think that the afterlife is a very real proponent of the Harry Potter universe. 

I also don't know how it wasn't that... how it wasn't saying Voldemort was condemned to death? There seemed to be no hope for him. Don't pity the living, Harry... because there are people who die without knowing love and they die forever. Ouch. 

I understand that he split his soul, but in my understanding of souls it really is impossible to split them. I can't project that into Rowling's story, but I do think she was trying to say something real with that... and I very much disagree with that "real' thing I think she was trying to say.


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> My main problem is I have actually seen that applied to real life. The actual implication that those born of hatred are hatred. Ridiculous, stupid, yes, but it's something that I witnessed and something from what I saw a lot of people were in support of. The messages we sow must be cautiously grown, because people can misinterpret them and unfortunately do very harmful things with their misinterpretations.


Oh, totally. I do agree. We are consumers. We consume our media, and all the ideas that go along with it.

I think we're saying the same thing, I'm just saying it in a more Ne way. 

What I'm trying to say is that I acknowledge the problems in media (such as the idea in HP that people born of a loveless union will live a loveless life - a terrible idea, and completely incorrect) and when talking about the _canon_ (by that I mean what is written and the author's intention behind it) I accept it at face value before deviating from it or arguing against it. I have to accept it as one subjective truth before I can pit other subjective truths (my own different readings of the text, and my own opinions of the world) against it. 

It's hard to explain.

But basically, when reading Harry Potter, I'm like, "Okay, JKR. That's _your_ opinion." And then if someone says something like, "the HP series was right...if you're born of a loveless union, you'll never know love," I'll be like, "NO. THAT'S RIDICULOUS. DON'T MINDLESSLY CONSUME EVERYTHING YOU READ WITHOUT CRITICAL THOUGHT. HERE ARE SOME OTHER IDEAS TO COUNTER THAT." (obviously it wouldn't be such an overt interaction, but still - you get my drift)

Then when I'm talking about interpretations of Voldie's life I can be like "well the author intended this, and I choose to subscribe to this reading even though it is not the way the world outside of this book works." I can find a different kind of logic in it, like "maybe it's specifically because she was using a love potion on him - it isn't lovelessness that affected baby Tom, it's the literal magic in the love potion that ended up in his blood." Not a reading that is explicitly written into the book, but one that I've personally always quietly believed so I could still maintain my own values inside the HP books.

Hope that makes sense.

I think this might be another example of Fe vs Fi. You're arguing for an objective moral truth, and I say that moral truths are subjective, even if I disagree with many of them and personally think they're wrong.

I'm using "truth" in less of a literal sense. There's no such thing as subjective truth, because subjectivity is a matter of opinion. As are morals and values, IMO.


----------



## Barakiel

Pressed Flowers said:


> Hmm... I hadn't considered other interpretations? Given the Resurrection Stone, where Harry met those who had passed on, their words to him, King's Cross... Even on Tumblr, which I think is primarily atheist, there are so many AUs about the afterlife. Regardless personal beliefs, I think that the afterlife is a very real proponent of the Harry Potter universe.
> 
> I also don't know how it wasn't that... how it wasn't saying Voldemort was condemned to death? There seemed to be no hope for him. Don't pity the living, Harry... because there are people who die without knowing love and they die forever. Ouch.
> 
> I understand that he split his soul, but in my understanding of souls it really is impossible to split them. I can't project that into Rowling's story, but I do think she was trying to say something real with that... and I very much disagree with that "real' thing I think she was trying to say.


The way I understood Voldemort's death, and specifically Dumbledore's line about pitying the living, is that death isn't the big bad thing that Voldemort fears, there are much worse things than that. I disagree with love being the main central force of the Rowling-verse, though, as it doesn't seem that big to me.

Some fanfics have made some interesting ideas about Voldemort splitting apart his soul, that he actually weakened his magical abilities, and became more temperamental and insane with that. Look at how he was before the main story began, he's very composed, charismatic, and manipulative. When we see him resurrected, he's dominating, powerful, and yet misunderstanding of the subtlety he once had. :happy:


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> Hmm... I hadn't considered other interpretations? Given the Resurrection Stone, where Harry met those who had passed on, their words to him, King's Cross... Even on Tumblr, which I think is primarily atheist, there are so many AUs about the afterlife. Regardless personal beliefs, I think that the afterlife is a very real proponent of the Harry Potter universe.
> 
> I also don't know how it wasn't that... how it wasn't saying Voldemort was condemned to death? There seemed to be no hope for him. Don't pity the living, Harry... because there are people who die without knowing love and they die forever. Ouch.


But it isn't "those who die without knowing love!" It's "those who LIVE without love!" OH MY GOD!!! I'm getting really worked up about this!!!! Your interpretation is not wrong, but it is also not the only interpretation. I have never gotten "pity the dead ppl who didn't know love bc they die forever..." oh my god whaT?

I'm not mad, just empassioned!!!! I hope you understand!!!!!!! I LOVE HARRY POTTER AND HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS ABOUT IT

i have to go back and read the last part of your post because this is where i stopped reading so i could respond hold on


----------



## galactic collision

Barakiel said:


> The way I understood Voldemort's death, and specifically Dumbledore's line about pitying the living, is that death isn't the big bad thing that Voldemort fears, there are much worse things than that. I disagree with love being the main central force of the Rowling-verse, though, as it doesn't seem that big to me.
> 
> Some fanfics have made some interesting ideas about Voldemort splitting apart his soul, that he actually weakened his magical abilities, and became more temperamental and insane with that. Look at how he was before the main story began, he's very composed, charismatic, and manipulative. When we see him resurrected, he's dominating, powerful, and yet misunderstanding of the subtlety he once had. :happy:


This is how I feel about it, save for the part where you don't think love is a central force in the WW. I think living without love and compassion is exactly the worst thing that could happen to Voldemort, and it is what happened to him.


----------



## Immolate

I have decided to grumpyface whenever mental health comes up.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

@just for the spark I think I get it, and I understand what you're saying about MBTI differences. 

I can't really respond more because something upset me on another thread, and I'm realizing I just need to sleep. Sorry, I'm not upset by this I just enjoyed the discussion, but it's best if I rest now.


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> I understand that he split his soul, but in my understanding of souls it really is impossible to split them. I can't project that into Rowling's story, but I do think she was trying to say something real with that... and I very much disagree with that "real' thing I think she was trying to say.


I don't know if JKR was trying to say something real about being able to split souls. It's a story. It's fiction. lol

I don't know. We'll never know the author's true intention. That's what the idea of Death of the Author is all about...

I really like post-structuralism/post-modernism, idk if that's coming through in my posts at all... lol

I acknowledge that the author believes certain things about their book/the world, but not that it's the only way to read/see it.


----------



## Barakiel

just for the spark said:


> This is how I feel about it, save for the part where you don't think love is a central force in the WW. I think living without love and compassion is exactly the worst thing that could happen to Voldemort, and it is what happened to him.


What I think would have been a good idea would be someone who never knew love, aka, Voldemort, learning it. Or at least using what they understand as love as a motivation. Hell, even a fake human, or homunculus, going through that. :happy:

I suppose I devalue love, just a tad. :wink:


----------



## galactic collision

Pressed Flowers said:


> @just for the spark I think I get it, and I understand what you're saying about MBTI differences.
> 
> I can't really respond more because something upset me on another thread, and I'm realizing I just need to sleep. Sorry, I'm not upset by this I just enjoyed the discussion, but it's best if I rest now.


Okay. Take care of yourself. I hope you're all right and that you sleep well.  I also enjoyed this discussion - any time you want to get intense about Harry Potter, I'm here to get EVEN MORE INTENSE about it

just kidding, it's not a competition

but i do have trouble controlling how empassioned i get about it, so. if you want to make it a competition, i wouldn't say no. :tongue:

good night!


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Pressed Flowers said:


> There's probably a lot of fan fictions about it. Probably most of them terrible.
> 
> And... I don't know. I have a hard time realizing the difference between evil by circumstance and evil by choice. For a while, they were the same to me. And then that Sirius Black quote was actually the one that hit me
> 
> _"The world is not split into two sides, good and evil. We all have light and dark inside us. It just matters what we choose to act upon."_
> 
> That made me realize. There are people in this world who _choose_ evil. Who consciously choose to do things that hurt others. And that's actually my current definition is evil - the action that is intended to (typically devastatingly) harm. And "bad" is the conscious hurting of others.
> 
> And... well, in that way, I agree. Voldemort is the manifestation of evil. He knew what he was doing. He knew he was literally killing others. He didn't care. He enjoyed bringing pain. Evil.
> 
> But I still dislike the ending, as I've discussed before. Voldemort's spirit would have been relieved back together. He made mistakes. He ended lives. He terrorized an entire generation. He made poor Molly marry Arthur before she could think any better of it out of fear of him. Yet the thought of him being eternally perished makes my heart break. No one deserves that.
> 
> And that's why I feel he's a victim of circumstance in some ways. Even though he isn't? I feel as if not portraying him as that implies that he deserved such a fate, which is something I very much disagree with.


Fe is vengeful. Nobody understands what Fe is. You are a Fi user. Fi is more live and let live. Fe is more vengeful. It has a connection to the feeling object. People think that Fe is just unconditional love. It is nothing like that. It is based on what is happening in the environment. That is why INFJ is called a counselor. We are not yes men. Fe are not yes men. Counselors challenge you. Fi users don't feel they have the right to do that.


----------



## Pressed Flowers

FearAndTrembling said:


> Fe is vengeful. Nobody understands what Fe is. You are a Fi user. Fi is more live and let live. Fe is more vengeful. It has a connection to the feeling object. People think that Fe is just unconditional love. It is nothing like that. It is based on what is happening in the environment. That is why INFJ is called a counselor. We are not yes men. Fe are not yes men. Counselors challenge you. Fi users don't feel they have the right to do that.


This is unsolicited typing and usually I would ignore that but right now if you continue, I will report you for it.

Edit: Actually, not just now. If you reference your disagreements about my type at all, I will report you for it. You have been made aware. Do not discuss my type.


----------



## galactic collision

Barakiel said:


> What I think would have been a good idea would be someone who never knew love, aka, Voldemort, learning it. Or at least using what they understand as love as a motivation. Hell, even a fake human, or homunculus, going through that. :happy:
> 
> I suppose I devalue love, just a tad. :wink:


Funny story. Going off of what you said about devaluing love, here is a little nugget about how much I value love, both in life and in Harry Potter.

I got my wisdom teeth out about... well, almost two years ago. It was an emotional event for me for several reasons, the biggest of which were that it was emergency surgery and I had no warning, and that I had just moved across the country and was on my own for the first time ever. I didn't even have any friends yet.

So I had been crying quite a lot that day because I was under a lot of stress, and once I start crying I feel the ghost of the tears staying with me for the rest of the day. In other words, when I cry, it feels for the rest of the day like I've just been crying, and that makes me even more susceptible to crying again. (Luckily, crying is a rarity for me - if it happened more often, I think I'd be exhausted. Once I start, it's hard to feel like I've stopped until I've had a bit of sleep to distance myself from it.)

Anyway, so I took a taxi and got the surgery. I was completely under for it because I was like, "I refuse to be awake for this, or else you will be wiping away my tears of terror for the entire duration of the surgery." And when I woke up from the surgery, I was sitting in a room by myself and for some reason the first thing I thought about was Harry Potter. I was really really drugged up and still very emotional, and I was sitting there by myself just thinking about how Harry could have been a terrible person, he could have been bitter or a bully or a bigot or a lot of things, especially considering how much loss he'd experienced and how much trauma and abuse he had faced. But instead, he so selflessly loved the people in his life and the entire community around him. He even forgave the Dursleys. I just admire that so much.

I'm pretty even-keeled thinking about Harry's love now, but sitting on the dental chair immediately post-op, I was _sobbing_. A doctor came in and was like, "Why are you crying?" and my mouth and cheeks were swollen and numb so I couldn't explain. I was just like, "AAAAAAY AHHHH" which is post-wisdom tooth surgery speak for "HARRY POTTER."

So yeah. That's a story about how much I love the love in Harry Potter.

Tagging @Pressed Flowers because I know you just went to bed, but I think this story might amuse you.


----------



## Dangerose

Night Huntress said:


> Didn't know where else to put this, and since discussion about Fi vs Fe goes on here pretty often, here are some (music) videos that illustrate the difference in how the two functions express themselves:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess which are which, shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> All the videos attempt to express pain, sorrow, intimacy, and depth of feeling. I say this because some people STILL seem to believe that deep, personal feelings = Fi. But notice how in the Fi ones, the focus is always on the person itself and the subtle things that betray how emotionally charged the scene is. Every emotion, big or small, has its story told by how the person themselves feels it. In the Fe ones, the focus is on the feeling and how it is expressed. The emotional charge and its intensity is conveyed by means of how passionate the expression of it is.
> 
> In the Fe videos, the feeling is the object. The intensity of the feeling is proportionate to its expression. It radiates outward and infuses the air around it with the weight of its emotion.
> 
> In the Fi videos, intensity of expression is irrelevant. The focus is on the impact the person is experiencing and how one can gauge it. It feels like suction, drawing infinitely inward to convey how far the pain runs.


Random, but do you think Bilan is ESTP or has a higher feeling function? I've always typed him ESTP but I guess I could see a different typing.

edit: I swear every time I see him in the audience of something he's crying or looking deeply emotional and he's always crying on the Russian Voice. I was assuming his extreme emotion-showing was out-of-control or hammy tertiary Fe but I suppose it could be dominant?





sorry, I don't even know if you know Bilan at all, I've just been using him as my example of THE ESTP and if I'm wrong I'd like to know)


----------



## galactic collision

FearAndTrembling said:


> Fe is vengeful. Nobody understands what Fe is. You are a Fi user. Fi is more live and let live. Fe is more vengeful. It has a connection to the feeling object. People think that Fe is just unconditional love. It is nothing like that. It is based on what is happening in the environment. That is why INFJ is called a counselor. We are not yes men. Fe are not yes men. Counselors challenge you. Fi users don't feel they have the right to do that.


I don't see Bear as an Fi user and I don't think I agree with your intepretation of Fe vs Fi. I'm still waiting for your explanation on why Fi users have less confidence, btw.

<- Fi user and I'm challenging you right now.


----------



## Dangerose

before I try to respond to comments, @Pressed Flowers, when I was little I used to collect heart-shaped rocks) It was like my thing, and whenever people found heart-shaped rocks they would bring them to me)
So I like your avatar))


----------



## Barakiel

@Pressed Flowers is undoubtedly an Fe user, in my humble opinion. Her ethics, if you want to go into Socionics, are completely externally based. She doesn't ruminate on them, like Fi does, she's frustrated on the effects things have on people.


----------



## galactic collision

Now I'm thinking about functions and post-structuralism. I'm just now realizing, it seems like a very Ji school of thought. Pe, too. Many interpretations (_open_ to interpretation - Ne), subjective truths (Ji)... ooh, very interesting.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@just for the spark
Not quite what you're saying here, but that reminds me of when I try to write, and some ideas I get might imply certain things I don't actually believe... yet I think the idea makes for an interesting story, so it makes me feel conflicted between exploring all the ideas I find interesting, but also trying to think of all the implications, and wanting the theme to stay coherent, or something like that. 

But yeah, I can appreciate a message in a story even if I don't agree with it. There's a limit, of course. Some implications just make the story very bothersome to read, but for example, I'm not a Christian, but I can enjoy Christian themes in stories. Like All Dogs Go to Heaven as I mentioned earlier. But I suppose it helps that the message isn't really that you should worship God or whatever, so it would be different if it was about _that_. But then I also like Narnia which is more... thoroughly a Christian allegory and stuff as well.


----------



## Barakiel

just for the spark said:


> Funny story. Going off of what you said about devaluing love, here is a little nugget about how much I value love, both in life and in Harry Potter.
> 
> I got my wisdom teeth out about... well, almost two years ago. It was an emotional event for me for several reasons, the biggest of which were that it was emergency surgery and I had no warning, and that I had just moved across the country and was on my own for the first time ever. I didn't even have any friends yet.
> 
> So I had been crying quite a lot that day because I was under a lot of stress, and once I start crying I feel the ghost of the tears staying with me for the rest of the day. In other words, when I cry, it feels for the rest of the day like I've just been crying, and that makes me even more susceptible to crying again. (Luckily, crying is a rarity for me - if it happened more often, I think I'd be exhausted. Once I start, it's hard to feel like I've stopped until I've had a bit of sleep to distance myself from it.)
> 
> Anyway, so I took a taxi and got the surgery. I was completely under for it because I was like, "I refuse to be awake for this, or else you will be wiping away my tears of terror for the entire duration of the surgery." And when I woke up from the surgery, I was sitting in a room by myself and for some reason the first thing I thought about was Harry Potter. I was really really drugged up and still very emotional, and I was sitting there by myself just thinking about how Harry could have been a terrible person, he could have been bitter or a bully or a bigot or a lot of things, especially considering how much loss he'd experienced and how much trauma and abuse he had faced. But instead, he so selflessly loved the people in his life and the entire community around him. He even forgave the Dursleys. I just admire that so much.
> 
> I'm pretty even-keeled thinking about Harry's love now, but sitting on the dental chair immediately post-op, I was _sobbing_. A doctor came in and was like, "Why are you crying?" and my mouth and cheeks were swollen and numb so I couldn't explain. I was just like, "AAAAAAY AHHHH" which is post-wisdom tooth surgery speak for "HARRY POTTER."
> 
> So yeah. That's a story about how much I love the love in Harry Potter.
> 
> Tagging @Pressed Flowers because I know you just went to bed, but I think this story might amuse you.


Fair enough, and that's actually kind of touching, for a story. :happy: Let me give you one in return.

I've always been frustrated at my normality, it's a thing for me, probably what led to my inferiority-superiority complex, if you can call it that. Nevertheless, a series called Fate/Stay Night is the reason why I value surpassing your limits, because, well, at the start of the story, the main character is completely inept. Like, well and truly, he can't even activate his magic correctly, and did it so wrong that he created an entirely new way to do it. Yet, at the end of the last story path, while his mind is being shattered by a deadly upgrade he was forced to get, he defeats two near-gods, saves someone he cared about from possession from an actual god, and then defeats said god, before finally dying himself. It's not as detailed a story, but I actually *despised* this character until this story path, and now I idealize him, since it made me realize that even if you're completely inept, as long as you have will, you can surpass yourself. :happy:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> ... Sorry, what? All I see is outdated messages. Yes, they're good, kind, humble people. Guess what? Humans aren't like that. And as far as gender roles, the old stories are, well, crap. The heroines in modern Disney tales don't just act as possessions, but actually do things. They act. :happy:


sorry how is 'help those less fortunate than yourself' an outdated message? 
'real men kill many lions' is an outdated message.


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> sorry how is 'help those less fortunate than yourself' an outdated message?
> 'real men kill many lions' is an outdated message.


Because we all know that we should be kind. Kindness is a good ideal to strive for. It's been drilled in our head for ages. Yet how many children know that women are strong? That evil people are not all bad? :happy:


----------



## Vermillion

Princess Langwidere said:


> Random, but do you think Bilan is ESTP or has a higher feeling function? I've always typed him ESTP but I guess I could see a different typing.


Ohh lord I've asked myself this question several times now XD I have wondered if he's actually an ENFJ. But no, I think his Fe isn't so nuanced and his expression of Ni is childish. He tries, but it isn't impressive. He excels at being showy and yet straightforward. It's rather refreshing. Yep, ESTP with a nice big helping of Fe


----------



## galactic collision

Princess Langwidere said:


> sorry how is 'help those less fortunate than yourself' an outdated message?
> 'real men kill many lions' is an outdated message.


what are you talking about

i refuse to date a man unless he has killed many lions and brought their bloody carcasses to me


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> There's probably a lot of fan fictions about it. Probably most of them terrible.
> 
> And... I don't know. I have a hard time realizing the difference between evil by circumstance and evil by choice. For a while, they were the same to me. And then that Sirius Black quote was actually the one that hit me
> 
> _"The world is not split into two sides, good and evil. We all have light and dark inside us. It just matters what we choose to act upon."_
> 
> That made me realize. There are people in this world who _choose_ evil. Who consciously choose to do things that hurt others. And that's actually my current definition is evil - the action that is intended to (typically devastatingly) harm. And "bad" is the conscious hurting of others.
> 
> And... well, in that way, I agree. Voldemort is the manifestation of evil. He knew what he was doing. He knew he was literally killing others. He didn't care. He enjoyed bringing pain. Evil.
> 
> But I still dislike the ending, as I've discussed before. Voldemort's spirit would have been relieved back together. He made mistakes. He ended lives. He terrorized an entire generation. He made poor Molly marry Arthur before she could think any better of it out of fear of him. Yet the thought of him being eternally perished makes my heart break. No one deserves that.
> 
> And that's why I feel he's a victim of circumstance in some ways. Even though he isn't? I feel as if not portraying him as that implies that he deserved such a fate, which is something I very much disagree with.


What's the point of fighting for good if in the end everyone 'gets into the kingdom of heaven' or whatever the equivalent is?
In that case, nothing is bad, every action is leading to a good conclusion.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

just for the spark said:


> I don't see Bear as an Fi user and I don't think I agree with your intepretation of Fe vs Fi. I'm still waiting for your explanation on why Fi users have less confidence, btw.
> 
> <- Fi user and I'm challenging you right now.


Jung described Fi as "still waters run deep". They are brooding. It is Fe that is aggressive. Fe is trying to control the environment. I don't get how people don't see that Arya Stark is a Fe dom for example. Arya Stark won''t leave anybody alone. She is always prying. That is Fe. lol. Why would a Fi user so impose themselves on other people at that age? I mean even before any tragedy. She has love of the object and chases it around, with disregard for the environment and will of others. Which when seen more abstractly, is the same thing as my mother smothering me and invading my space. lol. That is what Fe does. It is the most aggressive function. Especially in the lead.


----------



## Immolate

FearAndTrembling said:


> Jung described Fi as "still waters run deep". They are brooding. It is Fe that is aggressive. Fe is trying to control the environment. I don't get how people don't see that Arya Stark is a Fe dom for example. Arya Stark won''t leave anybody alone. She is always prying. That is Fe. lol. Why would a Fi user so impose themselves on other people at that age? I mean even before any tragedy. She has love of the object and chases it around, with disregard for the environment and will of others. Which when seen more abstractly, is the same thing as my mother smothering me and invading my space. lol. That is what Fe does. It is the most aggressive function. Especially in the lead.



It's like you come here in search of validation for your rambling ideas.


----------



## Barakiel

shinynotshiny said:


> It's like you come here in search of validation for your rambling ideas.


Don't we all? I do find his interpretations of the functions rather amusing, however wrong they are. :wink:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Why? Why does it have to be a reconstruction as well?


Because if you're tearing things down without putting something back in place it's just lazy and destructive.
It's fine to tear something down to make room for something better but if it's just mindless deconstruction you're like the kid at the play pen who just knocks down block castles and doesn't do anything else. 

Or a Vogon knocking out the planet for an interstellar highway. This is actually a good example. They thought they were just getting rid of something in their way. They did not realize the value that earth actually had, both from an earthly perspective, and actually because the earth was a computer that was calculating the meaning of life, but they knocked it down in the name of 'progress'.


----------



## galactic collision

Shame Spiral said:


> @just for the spark
> Not quite what you're saying here, but that reminds me of when I try to write, and some ideas I get might imply certain things I don't actually believe... yet I think the idea makes for an interesting story, so it makes me feel conflicted between exploring all the ideas I find interesting, but also trying to think of all the implications, and wanting the theme to stay coherent, or something like that.
> 
> But yeah, I can appreciate a message in a story even if I don't agree with it. There's a limit, of course. Some implications just make the story very bothersome to read, but for example, I'm not a Christian, but I can enjoy Christian themes in stories. Like All Dogs Go to Heaven as I mentioned earlier. But I suppose it helps that the message isn't really that you should worship God or whatever, so it would be different if it was about _that_. But then I also like Narnia which is more... thoroughly a Christian allegory and stuff as well.


Yes. I'm writing a play right now where the main character's entire objective is to get pregnant. She doesn't know with who or how (and at one point she ends up in prison and she still tries) but she must have a child. I fear that I'm accidentally perpetuating the idea that women are hysterical and baby-crazy once their biological clock goes off - an idea I do not want to perpetuate (since after all not all women have uteruses to begin with, and some people who do have uteruses are not women). On the other hand, I'm writing a parody steeped in gender roles, so what I'm writing is appropriate for the subject matter. I just fear other people's interpretations - I want to write stories about strong, flawed women without having to feel like I'm speaking for the Universal Female Experience. 

So I totally know what you mean.

And I also love the Chronicles of Narnia series.


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> Really got to write my essay soon. Gah.
> 
> But
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Princess Langwidere</a></i></span> are the themes of the book HOND still excellent? I loved the movie because the themes were excellent, but after learning some about the book it felt like they were reduced. Especially Esmeralda's heroism and Quasimodo's humanity. That's not so, is it?
> 
> Also, on Harry Potter,
> 
> Merope is actually my favorite character. I mean I have a lot of favorite characters, but I most love Merope. I want to hug her forever. Yes, she was wrong to cast the spell... but she just wanted a shot at happiness. And she thought it would work out. We don't celebrate her as we do Lily, but shouldn't we? She died out of love for her son as well. Out of love for her son and his father. She had such a tragic end, her whole entire life, I feel the least we can do is remember her for it.


No, Esmeralda is absolutely a perfect shining beacon of grace, she is wonderful, and Quasimodo as well. The message is wonderful. Frollo is my favorite part, his character is so tragic and ...all that but I think you would really appreciate the Quasimodo and Esmeralda bits, as well as the whole book, it's absolutely wonderful

I also think you would enjoy this song: 



 it's very SO and...full of humanity.

edit: it's not SO at all, I actually listened to it at all, but I still think you would like it
edit: I'm not sure if you would like it actually but it seems more 'you' than 'me' but I still like it ok

Merope( I wanted more about her. I would actually love a whole novel about the tragedy of her character.


----------



## galactic collision

FearAndTrembling said:


> I want to see empirical data for any claim about any function.
> 
> Can anyone like actually discuss functions in their own words? Tell me, in your own words, why I am wrong. Specifically. Address my points.


Your arguments for why Fe is aggressive:

1. Someone you personally typed as an Fe dom is aggressive
2. A fictional character you personally typed as an Fe user is aggressive

Your points have been addressed. Now it's time for you to extrapolate, or provide unbiased data that prove your points so that I can address _and_ respond to them.


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> For me the point is not saying a message, but showing it.
> I think the girls in the classic Disney films are indeed strong. They may not be defeating the Huns, but come on Barakiel, how many people do you know who have defeated the Huns?) (actually, message-wise I have no problem with Mulan, but...I honestly feel that the push to have female heroines 'acting' and being strong in a certain way is enforcing masculine traits onto women...but that's a whole different can of worms.
> 
> Neil Gaiman wrote: "Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten". I think no matter the subject matter...childrens' stories do teach this message. I would argue that the later Disney films teach it less clearly, but that doesn't really matter.
> 
> When a person encounters a real-life dragon, it might be...despair, or a difficult school-year, or anything, if they have internalized some stories, they will know -- if I fight with the sword of truth and have the shield of righteousness, it can be defeated. I do think some of the fairytale themes are particular to women, or at least more inviting. Sleeping Beauty -- the curse can be broken, your 'prince' will come. The prince does not have to be a man. As a Christian I would equate Prince Charming with the Prince of Peace. But it could be earthly relief or spiritual. The point is...sleep is not death. or some other point, I'm not sure, there's lots of points and I don't claim to have the keys to the wisdom of fairytales.
> 
> Children understand these things instinctively. Adults often forget to. But I think the earlier movies especially show lessons that are good for children to hear. They will want to imitate their favorite characters. Strive to be like them. That's part of how children learn.
> 
> If I had a daughter, I would rather she were imitating Snow White, being kind to everyone, and gentle, modest, humble, trying not to be afraid, knowing that 'rags could not hide her gentle grace', shining with an inner light, whistling while she worked, etc. than Ariel, wanting everything for herself, having an attitude and talking back to her father, *literally making a deal with the Devil*, being obsessed with what she wants rather than what others need. Not that Ariel is the worst character in existence, but she's not a good role model and the movie doesn't have a very good message imo.


Well, we will have to debate that the women in older fairytales weren't just damsels in distress, like Snow White. But that's for another time.

If I had a daughter, I'd rather she be like Rapunzel in the 3D movie aptly named, Rapunzel. She wants to know where she comes from? She finds out, and calls out her abusive captor on her bullshit when she realizes what happened. Want another example? Anna from Frozen. Sure, she's stereotypically a tsundere, but in the climax of the movie, it's *her* who saves her sister, not anyone else. It's a powerful message of feminism.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

fair phantom said:


> I love deconstruction and playing around with the old stories, but I understand your love for the more archetypal fairytales. It is because they are simple, and elegant that they last. They can be told and retold in different cultures and different eras and retain their power. There is this promise that any forest could be The Forest, where transformation happens.


Indeed, I can appreciate the elegant simplicity/purity of those fairy tales, especially now that I'm older. Although I feel for me, it's enjoyable because that simplicity leaves things up to my imagination, so I still like to mess with it in a way.

But then, deconstructions of tropes rely on those tropes being a thing in the first place. So the fact those tropes get deconstructed goes to show how they have power in the first place. Or something like that.



Princess Langwidere said:


> If I had a daughter, I would rather she were imitating Snow White, being kind to everyone, and gentle, modest, humble, trying not to be afraid, knowing that 'rags could not hide her gentle grace', shining with an inner light, whistling while she worked, etc. than Ariel, wanting everything for herself, having an attitude and talking back to her father, *literally making a deal with the Devil*, being obsessed with what she wants rather than what others need. Not that Ariel is the worst character in existence, but she's not a good role model and the movie doesn't have a very good message imo.


To me, Ariel is a more _interesting _character to watch, but I can see a problem with how she never truly seem to learn from her mistakes, or punished for them.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I value both forms. I don't see why everyone should have to value both. @Barakiel, you seem to be frustrated by the fact that @Princess Langwidere doesn't like the approach to stories that you like. why, when you don't appreciate the stories she loves? You have different tastes. Why is this a problem?


It frustrates me, although I think our perceptions are wrong. Plus, calling deconstructions lazy and unimaginative isn't quite right. If you break apart an apple, you get to see its core, same with tropes. Plus, I don't think children should be consistently force fed the message that kindness will solve everything, because guess what? It won't. People aren't always evil, appearances are misleading, and gender roles are crap. These are things children _should_ know. :happy:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

just for the spark said:


> Your arguments for why Fe is aggressive:
> 
> 1. Someone you personally typed as an Fe dom is aggressive
> 2. A fictional character you personally typed as an Fe user is aggressive
> 
> Your points have been addressed. Now it's time for you to extrapolate, or provide unbiased data that prove your points so that I can address _and_ respond to them.


Everything she cares about is outside herself. 

 Jung would look at Arya Stark and put her as a Fe dom. Jung said of Fi, "still waters run deep explain these women". This stuff is backwards. *

Jung:

The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more ‘depersonalized/ it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the ‘ nothing but’ style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.

Unconscious thought reaches the surface in the form of irruptions, often of an obsessing nature, the general character of which is always negative and depreciatory. Women of this type have moments when the most hideous thoughts fasten upon the very objects most valued by their feelings. This negative thinking avails itself of every infantile prejudice or parallel that is calculated to breed doubt in the feeling-value, and it tows every primitive instinct along with it, in the effort to make ‘a nothing but* interpretation of the feeling.*

Her entire ego is environment feeling. She has projected nothing of her own feelings. It is based on protecting feeling objects in the environment. That is what she cares about. Her affection to the object. Totally consumed by it. She recites the feeling object every night. Classic Fe with destructive inferior Ti thinking. When she kills them, she removes the object that hurts her.

Your move.


----------



## Rebel Sheep

FearAndTrembling said:


> Fe is vengeful. Nobody understands what Fe is. You are a Fi user. Fi is more live and let live. Fe is more vengeful. It has a connection to the feeling object. People think that Fe is just unconditional love. It is nothing like that. It is based on what is happening in the environment. That is why INFJ is called a counselor. We are not yes men. Fe are not yes men. Counselors challenge you. Fi users don't feel they have the right to do that.


Alright. Bear is just like... the most Fe user ever. Ever word she writes is imbued with very essence of Fe and objective ethics. She constantly focuses on the idea of emotional consensus and waries paying attention to other people's feelings so much its unbelievable (and so much that it slightly annoys me which has nothing to do her and more of my Fi finding Fe aggravating... I have an INFJ friend who I feel exactly the same way about). 

If the very essence of MBTI can be considered a functioning, logical system... then it is IMPOSSIBLE for Bear not to be some sort of FJ. In-freaking-possible.


----------



## galactic collision

FearAndTrembling said:


> Everything she cares about is outside herself.
> 
> Jung would look at Arya Stark and put her as a Fe dom. Jung said of Fi, "still waters run deep explain these women". This stuff is backwards. *
> 
> Jung:
> 
> The stronger the conscious feeling relation, and therefore, the more ‘depersonalized/ it becomes, the stronger grows the unconscious opposition. This reveals itself in the fact that unconscious ideas centre round just the most valued objects, which are thus pitilessly stripped of their value. That thinking which always thinks in the ‘ nothing but’ style is in its right place here, since it destroys the ascendancy of the feeling that is chained to the object.
> 
> Unconscious thought reaches the surface in the form of irruptions, often of an obsessing nature, the general character of which is always negative and depreciatory. Women of this type have moments when the most hideous thoughts fasten upon the very objects most valued by their feelings. This negative thinking avails itself of every infantile prejudice or parallel that is calculated to breed doubt in the feeling-value, and it tows every primitive instinct along with it, in the effort to make ‘a nothing but* interpretation of the feeling.*
> 
> Her entire ego is environment feeling. She has projected nothing of her own feelings. It is based on protecting feeling objects in the environment. That is what she cares about. Her affection to the object. Totally consumed by it. She recites the feeling object every night. Classic Fe with destructive inferior Ti thinking. When she kills them, she removes the object that hurts her.
> 
> Your move.


I don't watch Game of Thrones, so I can't share Arya Stark as an example for any function. I don't know what the "object" is that you're talking about, but I'm imagining like...a sword or something. Okay, let's say an idea. Let's say Arya Stark's object that she cares about is the concept of feminism. 

She cares about her affection to feminism. (So do I, an Fi user.) She's consumed by it. (I, too, am a bit consumed by feminist ideas.) She recites the feeling feminism every night. (What does this mean? Can you explain this or give me a different object that fits this sentence?) 

Or is it literally like a sword? She's like...consumed by swords

Listen, I can't give you anything because I still did not comprehend what you were trying to explain. I'm fine with getting conceptual and I'd be willing to hear your ideas out, but you have to be willing to bridge the gap of understanding. I'm not a fan of Jung's writings because they're too dense and I don't have the patience to pick it all apart. Chalk that up to Ne or whatever you want, but I want to hear in your own words a summary of what you mean in a way I can understand without having to watch an entire TV show lmao (maybe use a Harry Potter character? too bad they're mostly Fi)


----------



## fair phantom

Shame Spiral said:


> Indeed, I can appreciate the elegant simplicity/purity of those fairy tales, especially now that I'm older. Although I feel for me, it's enjoyable because that simplicity leaves things up to my imagination, so I still like to mess with it in a way.
> 
> But then, deconstructions of tropes rely on those tropes being a thing in the first place. So the fact those tropes get deconstructed goes to show how they have power in the first place. Or something like that.


Oh yes, there is so much potential in the stories. I don't think they were ever meant to be kept in amber.

I think isn't so much the deconstruction, subversion, or challenging of tropes that make movies like Maleficent and many Disney films
different from the tales. You can find tales that already do that to an extent (see: the subtle princess). It is the pop culture references, the types of humour, the way the story unfolds. Much of this will _date_ these stories.

And honestly, if you take out the deliberate twists, I think _Maleficent_ is a conventional movie narrative.



> To me, Ariel is a more _interesting _character to watch, but I can see a problem with how she never truly seem to learn from her mistakes, or punished for them.


I love Ariel. She is flawed yes, but I get her. And we clearly aren't meant to see making a deal with the devil as a good idea. At least that thought never crossed my mind.

Also her actions have a context. King Triton's temper was out of control. Destroying all those things she had painstakingly gathered was like a rejection of her.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

fair phantom said:


> Oh yes, there is so much potential in the stories. I don't think they were ever meant to be kept in amber.
> 
> I think isn't so much the deconstruction, subversion, or challenging of tropes that make movies like Maleficent and many Disney films
> different from the tales. You can find tales that already do that to an extent (see: the subtle princess). It is the pop culture references, the types of humour, the way the story unfolds. Much of this will _date_ these stories.
> 
> And honestly, if you take out the deliberate twists, I think _Maleficent_ is a conventional movie narrative.


True, when I was younger I didn't mind stuff like that. Pop culture references and such. Now they tend to annoy me though. That's the kind of purity I can agree is missing.



> I love Ariel. She is flawed yes, but I get her. And we clearly aren't meant to see making a deal with the devil as a good idea. At least that thought never crossed my mind.
> 
> Also her actions have a context. King Triton's temper was out of control. Destroying all those things she had painstakingly gathered was like a rejection of her.


It's true. I remember seeing some discussion on the character, and they said she should listen to her dad instead of being a brat or whatever, and it's just... Uhm he wasn't really in the right either. He was a flawed character as well for sure. And I doubt Ariel would have ran (or... swam) off to the sea witch if he had handled things better. So it's not all devoid of a decent message


----------



## Dangerose

Pressed Flowers said:


> Regardless personal beliefs, I think that the afterlife is a very real proponent of the Harry Potter universe.


I don't mean to be an obnoxious grammar stickler, but this made me laugh...))


----------



## Barakiel

Princess Langwidere said:


> I don't mean to be an obnoxious grammar stickler, but this made me laugh...))


I gift this gif to you.


----------



## fair phantom

Barakiel said:


> It frustrates me, although I think our perceptions are wrong. Plus, calling deconstructions lazy and unimaginative isn't quite right. If you break apart an apple, you get to see its core, same with tropes. Plus, I don't think children should be consistently force fed the message that kindness will solve everything, because guess what? It won't. People aren't always evil, appearances are misleading, and gender roles are crap. These are things children _should_ know. :happy:


I agree that children should learn these things, but that doesn't mean that the old stories have nothing valuable. And it doesn't mean that people can't prefer stories where kindness is valued. There is room enough in this world for all sorts of stories.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Can somebody link me to 'that' one thread...? Curiosity is killing this cat. Thank you....


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> I agree that children should learn these things, but that doesn't mean that the old stories have nothing valuable. And it doesn't mean that people can't prefer stories where kindness is valued. There is room enough in this world for all sorts of stories.


Huh, I agree with you more than @Princess Langwidere. That's interesting. :happy:


----------



## Barakiel

Paradise Rain said:


> Can somebody link me to 'that' one thread...? Curiosity is killing this cat. Thank you....


Me too, I wanna see what all the hubub is about! :laughing:


----------



## galactic collision

Paradise Rain said:


> Can somebody link me to 'that' one thread...? Curiosity is killing this cat. Thank you....





Barakiel said:


> Me too, I wanna see what all the hubub is about! :laughing:


I "third" this


----------



## fair phantom

Paradise Rain said:


> Can somebody link me to 'that' one thread...? Curiosity is killing this cat. Thank you....


Okay, here you go. It starts out pretty harmless and then....:hotneko:


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Okay, here you go. It starts out pretty harmless and then....:hotneko:


My savior lol. Gracias mi amiga.


----------



## Barakiel

Paradise Rain said:


> My savior lol. Gracias mi amiga.


You know Spanish? :whoa:


----------



## Dangerose

Barakiel said:


> Some say 2w3, others say 6w5 or 5w6, and some have also said 7w8. I have an entire thread on it. :laughing:


(For the record I was thinking 7w8 but I'll look at that)


----------



## Dangerose

Ooh, this thing on @angelcat's blog is cool. I'm bored so I'm going to try it (not actually try to do all these things but)
Maybe we should try typing people by asking them to do things like this instead of asking them to describe themselves. 



> As for testing the functions (these may be crap, but whatever)…
> 
> Te: come up with a full-blown marketing plan to sell something.
> 
> Ti: set yourself an impossible scenario and find a solution (locked room murder scenario… door sealed, windows sealed, no trapdoor, chimney flu locked; how did the murder happen?).
> 
> Fe: change someone’s mind about something by appealing to their emotions.
> 
> Fi: create something only for yourself, that no one else cares about or likes, and share it with no one else.
> 
> Se: drop everything and do something risky just for the experience.
> 
> Si: predict a future event, and defend it with evidence from the past.
> 
> Ne: choose any political topic and argue it from 6 sides.
> 
> Ni: imagine your life six years from now, and figure out how to make it reality.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> You know Spanish? :whoa:


un poco...? 

Pfft, no not really. I knew more French, but now? Hah...my brain has left me. Hmmm...

Bonjour! Je m'apelle Jacqueline.


----------



## Tad Cooper

@fair phantom - I luckily never was an inpatient but had to do that sort of thing with some therapists and never knew what to write. (I was a really low weight for a while (almost got put in a clinic) and still couldn't cry - I find it really hard to get to the point of crying nowadays and feel really ill if I do cry - I did have a crazy bad temper though).
@laurie17 - It's basically an impulse for me.... "This looks amazing, lets do that!" but is always checked very harshly "No thats too many resources/you'd regret it" etc. I still do things, but it's more solitary i.e. going away from people I know to do field work - it lets me relax internally. I also think my Se leads me to want to do active things like art, hiking etc and can make me daydream of doing crazy stuff which I then dont do because Ive over thought it and lost the opportunity (I have a huge deal with overthinking things and would love my Se to just take over and let me 'do' stuff).

On quirkiness... I think my ESxP friend can be quirky, as well as the Ti/Fi doms I know - much more than Ne doms who arent quirky to me, but are hilarious and great fun.


----------



## Barakiel

Paradise Rain said:


> un poco...?
> 
> Pfft, no not really. I knew more French, but now? Hah...my brain has left me. Hmmm...
> 
> Bonjour! Je m'apelle Jacqueline.


It's impressive you know languages different to English in general. Or maybe that's just for me. :laughing:


----------



## Persephone Soul

Princess Langwidere said:


> Ooh, this thing on @angelcat's blog is cool. I'm bored so I'm going to try it (not actually try to do all these things but)
> Maybe we should try typing people by asking them to do things like this instead of asking them to describe themselves.


 Well I could tell you the ones I would be most likely to botch up.

I would/could not do; Se, and prob Te. The most easy for me would be Ne, Fi, Fe and Si. The remaining (Ni, Ti ) would be somewhere in the middle.


----------



## fair phantom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Ooh, this thing on @angelcat's blog is cool. I'm bored so I'm going to try it (not actually try to do all these things but)
> Maybe we should try typing people by asking them to do things like this instead of asking them to describe themselves.


Yeah that could be interesting!

oh hey the Fi one changed. This one is better. not talking about one's feelings for a week could be really damaging to relationships. My INFJ would probably have a breakdown if I did that lol.

@tine oh man my temper was monstrous. It was one of those things where I was numb most of the time but once an emotion started it was hard to stop.

@Barakiel 2 would shock me.


----------



## Persephone Soul

Barakiel said:


> It's impressive you know languages different to English in general. Or maybe that's just for me. :laughing:


Well, thank you ( I think lol). But yeah, I wouldn't consider me as "knowing different languages". I forgot so much, and have so much more to learn.

My whole life kinda stopped, then switched tracks the minute I became a mother and wife at 18.

I am however, fluent in baby-gibberish, and cartoon theme songs.


----------



## Persephone Soul

.


----------



## Persephone Soul

fair phantom said:


> Yeah that could be interesting!
> 
> oh hey the Fi one changed. This one is better. not talking about one's feelings for a week could be really damaging to relationships. My INFJ would probably have a breakdown if I did that lol.
> 
> @tine oh man my temper was monstrous. It was one of those things where I was numb most of the time but once an emotion started it was hard to stop.
> 
> @Barakiel 2 would shock me.


All of this. Every word. DITTO.


----------



## Dangerose

> Te: come up with a full-blown marketing plan to sell something.


I'm going to sell old handkerchiefs of celebrities. First I am going to hire numerous bloggers, web designers, etc. to go onto Tumblr and the Internet and such and build up hype about the particular celebrities whose handkerchiefs I own.
Then I am going to hire someone to write a song about a woman who carries the handkerchief of the man she loves and how it serves as a connection to him and I am going to bribe radio stations to play it.
Then I will create an allure about the brand and advertise it to make it seem as though it is a 'hidden' company, branch out and start making perfumes, etc. linked to certain handkerchiefs, which will make it seem as though the celebrities are involved. Etc.



> Ti: set yourself an impossible scenario and find a solution (locked room murder scenario… door sealed, windows sealed, no trapdoor, chimney flu locked; how did the murder happen?).


There is a river. Anyone who drinks from the river will die unless their name is John. In this country it is impossible to change your name. One day a girl named Amelia comes to the river and drinks. She does not die.

Um...maybe it was actually 'any man who drinks from the river will die'. Also, it is not clear when people are meant to die. Amelia will probably die of old age.

:/



> Fe: change someone’s mind about something by appealing to their emotions.


no people around but I think I have done this in the past


> Fi: create something only for yourself, that no one else cares about or likes, and share it with no one else.


NO I WILL NOT
ok I created a little bug-monster that the world shall never know about



> Se: drop everything and do something risky just for the experience.


ok I am going to go climb into the treehouse at night
(risky because it's never cleaned and I think squirrels and rats and spiders live there)
wait no writing that sentence reminded me that I don't want to have my face bitten off by a rapid rodent
now I feel weak



> Si: predict a future event, and defend it with evidence from the past.


I am going to fail all my college classes this term
Because previous college classes I have failed
But I am going to ignore this prediction



> Ne: choose any political topic and argue it from 6 sides.


Female priests
1. Men are the head of the family so men should be the head of the church
2. Women and men have different talents so it's better to have a variety in the priesthood
3. Women and men have different talents so it's better that they stay in the fields they are more inclined to
4. Women and men are essentially the same spiritually so why shouldn't they have the same post
5. The priesthood is a special office marked for a select few, those with a vocation and talent for priesting, so it should be kept holy and reserved
6. The priesthood is a vocation for so very few so doubling the chances of having good candidates is quite good



> Ni: imagine your life six years from now, and figure out how to make it reality.


I am going to be an elementary school teacher and have a mortgage on a house and be married with one infant.
I will go to school until I get my Associate's Degree which should take me about 2 years. Meanwhile I will keep my current job and look for work elsewhere so I can pay off my outstanding debt and obviously pay for college, saving as much as possible. During this time I will lose weight and increase my beauty and charm. Then I will transfer to a university. At university I will meet a good candidate for marriage and trick him to fall in love with me and propose. I will receive my Bachelor's and take all the necessary tests and get a job. Then when my debts are paid I will marry and when we have some money saved we will take out a mortgage and have a child.


----------



## Barakiel

fair phantom said:


> @Barakiel 2 would shock me.


I suppose my "orange" nature puts odds to that, huh? I always considered my antagonism a blessing. :wink:


----------



## Barakiel

Paradise Rain said:


> Well, thank you ( I think lol). But yeah, I wouldn't consider me as "knowing different languages". I forgot so much, and have so much more to learn.
> 
> My whole life kinda stopped, then switched tracks the minute I became a mother and wife at 18.
> 
> I am however, fluent in baby-gibberish, and cartoon theme songs.


For someone who's barely achieved anything beyond meaningless dribble, it's a good accomplishment. :laughing:


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## Darkbloom

Princess Langwidere said:


> Guys, explain my friend.
> I think she's an ENTJ 3 but I could be wrong.
> She gets really, like, mad at me for my FB pictures being webcam selfies and we had a big argument because my current one has some cleavage and she wanted me to replace it and we had this big fight where it seemed like she was arguing Fe and I was arguing Fi, IDK.
> 
> Here is the highlights reel (she is N and I am A):
> 
> N: You have good enough genetics, taste, and access to resources to leave room for no excuses.
> A: I feel like my current one accents my genetics, says almost nothing against my taste, and is a perfectly reasonably quality for a FB picture)
> N: Photos speak stronger than words and profile pictures unfortunately are like a book cover for a person - more often, people you know see you online than in person.
> A: Yes, and I like how my pictures represent me)
> N: It's terrible quality. In an era where even phones have excellent quality, it almost takes work to take such a low quality picture
> A: I can see it perfectly fine. I honestly care 0% about photo quality
> But I will get sluttier and poorer quality the more you complain, just so you know))
> N: If this was a photo you framed in your room, and no one saw but you, it wouldn't matter what other people saw. But this photo is seen by absolutely everyone who wishes it (by the nature of fb's privacy settings), and in fact is forced upon viewers who's newsfeed you affect
> That would take work)
> A: They look at it for one second and then they move on)
> I think it's ok))
> just a sec working on a new photo
> [then obviously I was forced to change it to something worse]
> 
> (conversation kept escalating)
> 
> N: Unfortunately, even in an individiualistic society like America, we aren't self-sufficient. A large part of our success is based on our relationship with others. Especially so with academics and career, but in casual settings naturally as well.
> A: Fascinating)
> You keep thinking I actually care though)
> N: If you didn't care about anything, you wouldn't bother participating in facebook at all. So what do you care about?
> A: I just think you are taking my profile pictures too seriously)
> (continuation)
> N: See the thing is, I'm definitely less innocent than you. But I don't show it off to the whole world.
> So the rest of your profile pictures are purely for yourself? In that case, why not simply print them out and pin them to your wall? Why post them?
> A: Yes, see, that's worse)
> That makes me better than you)
> I mean, not soul-wise
> Just, judging-behavior-wise
> N: most of the time, your public behavior is the only thing that a person sees - and not the true person you are inside)
> A: Yes, but I don't care about what 'a person' sees) I literally don't want to impress any of my Facebook friends)
> N: So again, WHY do you post to facebook?
> Facebook is a social media tool designed to communicate with the outside world.
> A: I have to do something) FB is not the centre of my world) Unlike yours, apparently
> .....
> A: And, like, my current one...not that slutty
> Webcam shot but who even cares
> A little cleavage, which never killed anyone
> An appealing facial expressing, cool eyeliner, and a neat hair thing going on
> I like it
> I don't love it
> But because you have opposed it, I will defend it to the death)
> 
> A: I change my profile picture like every two weeks?
> It's not my 'new image'
> It's an addition to a rolling image, it's not a big deal)
> Do you know what, I think my controversial political opinions harm my reputation more) than a slightly unflattering picture?
> V: Well, I honestly liked you a lot better before you became bored with life and started going into a different direction. I agree with many of your political opinions, so that's not the problem here. For me at least.


NT, so smart and know everything about everything
"Unfortunately, even in an individiualistic society like America, we aren't self-sufficient. A large part of our success is based on our relationship with others. Especially so with academics and career, but in casual settings naturally as well."
So insightful





What are her instincts? so/sp?sp/so?


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## Dangerose

Living dead said:


> NT, so smart and know everything about everything
> "Unfortunately, even in an individiualistic society like America, we aren't self-sufficient. A large part of our success is based on our relationship with others. Especially so with academics and career, but in casual settings naturally as well."
> So insightful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are her instincts? so/sp?sp/so?


:moon:
I _think_ she's sp/so but it could be the other way round. I'm pretty sure she's sx last though.


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## Dangerose

@Barakiel, I struggle to see you as a 2 at all.
Looking at your questionnaire I would think 6w7 honestly but I'm not that confident in Enneagram so don't ask me why.
Have you read Sandra Maitri's descriptions? They really helped me have a firm grasp on what my type was. It was spot-on for me.

I think my brother's a 3. I showed him the description. Halfway through he started hugging me all sadly (totally out of character) and was like "Why would you show me this??". Aha that's how I felt when I read the 2 description but I felt kinda bad, maybe he's too young to know his Enneagram type...
Anyways, I think they're very accurate and too spot-on for their own good)


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## beth x

It's time to call this thread a day as the intention from the initial post is a "type me" thread. 

Discussions can be created elsewhere in new threads or other existing threads to intended topics which can be nominated for stickie status.

Closed


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