# Hi. I'm an amoralist, atheist, anarchist, and INTJ, 5w6.



## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

I thought I'd introduce myself with something more interesting than 'hello'. I'm here to meet interesting people, people who think more like me, learn new things, and perhaps gain a little insight into myself. Physically, I'm 21 years old, 6'5, Caucasian, and have brown curly hair and hazel eyes. I enjoy reading on this site about other INTJs and also other personality similar types to mine like INTPs. I sometimes feel alone and strange and wonder if I'm the one who is crazy but knowing there are others out there with similar personalities is comforting and insightful. :happy:


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## Konan (Apr 20, 2011)

Welcome to the forum!!! I feel the same way at times but only shorter, different gender, different colored hair as well as straight hair. My insight to you is this; do your best to accept and love yourself so you can make it through. If you can't do that then there is nothing left. Hope that helps.


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## MissJordan (Dec 21, 2010)

Paeter said:


> I sometimes feel alone and strange and wonder if I'm the one who is crazy


Yeah, I get that too.

If you ever start thinking things like that, I'd recommend going to the ENFP section.


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

I do strive to improve myself but I do mostly like how I am besides the tendency towards socially secluding myself.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

*Welcome to the forum :happy:*


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

MisterJordan said:


> Yeah, I get that too.
> 
> If you ever start thinking things like that, I'd recommend going to the ENFP section.


I will do that... now I'm curious. And by the way, I'm from Australia too.


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## Konan (Apr 20, 2011)

Paeter said:


> I do strive to improve myself but I do mostly like how I am besides the tendency towards socially secluding myself.


Same here...


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## MissJordan (Dec 21, 2010)

Paeter said:


> I will do that... now I'm curious. And by the way, I'm from Australia too.


Curious about what?
The ENFPs?

And I'm 6 foot and 3/4 inches, have curly brown hair, caucasian, 18 years old with blue eyes. 

You from Sydney?


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## Runvardh (May 17, 2011)

Alone and strange is a very normal part of being an IN... Eventually most adapt and acquire some connection in life, but it's mostly just a port or bridge to your own personal island, no matter what you do. That said, I like being proven wrong.


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## infjmom (Apr 2, 2011)

Paeter said:


> I thought I'd introduce myself with something more interesting than 'hello'. I'm here to meet interesting people, people who think more like me, learn new things, and perhaps gain a little insight into myself. Physically, I'm 21 years old, 6'5, Caucasian, and have brown curly hair and hazel eyes. I enjoy reading on this site about other INTJs and also other personality similar types to mine like INTPs. I sometimes feel alone and strange and wonder if I'm the one who is crazy but knowing there are others out there with similar personalities is comforting and insightful. :happy:


Welcome to the forum


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## Scruffy (Aug 17, 2009)

Hey, sunshine.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Welcome to the forum, enjoy your time at PerC


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

MisterJordan said:


> Curious about what?
> The ENFPs?
> 
> And I'm 6 foot and 3/4 inches, have curly brown hair, caucasian, 18 years old with blue eyes.
> ...


 I'm from Adelaide. Good place to bring out my inner serial killer. Yeah, curious about ENFPs.


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## StandingTiger (Dec 25, 2010)

MisterJordan said:


> Paeter said:
> 
> 
> > I sometimes feel alone and strange and wonder if I'm the one who is crazy
> ...


We're all one step away from insanity... and that's assuming we're sane to begin with, which is quite an assumption.


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## BrooklynBoy (Jun 7, 2010)

Welcome to the forum!


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## Noble4 (Feb 1, 2011)

Welcome Yo.


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## Vox Impopuli (Sep 18, 2010)

Paeter said:


> I thought I'd introduce myself with something more interesting than 'hello'. I'm here to meet interesting people, people who think more like me, learn new things, and perhaps gain a little insight into myself. Physically, I'm 21 years old, 6'5, Caucasian, and have brown curly hair and hazel eyes. I enjoy reading on this site about other INTJs and also other personality similar types to mine like INTPs. I sometimes feel alone and strange and wonder if I'm the one who is crazy but knowing there are others out there with similar personalities is comforting and insightful. :happy:


Ah, you have found just the right company then!


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## Five (Mar 27, 2011)

Paeter said:


> I thought I'd introduce myself with something more interesting than 'hello'. I'm here to meet interesting people, people who think more like me, learn new things, and perhaps gain a little insight into myself. Physically, I'm 21 years old, 6'5, Caucasian, and have brown curly hair and hazel eyes. I enjoy reading on this site about other INTJs and also other personality similar types to mine like INTPs. I sometimes feel alone and strange and wonder if I'm the one who is crazy but knowing there are others out there with similar personalities is comforting and insightful. :happy:


31. 

What is the point of being an anarchist? The only rational question is what is the point of life? I figured it out at 27.


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

Five said:


> 31.
> 
> What is the point of being an anarchist? The only rational question is what is the point of life? I figured it out at 27.


What's the point of being against someone holding you prisoner for no good reason against your will? What's the point of being against someone pointing a gun at you and stealing your money? It's same thing basically. Anarchy is just being against the government for much the same reasons and because it can be well reasoned that the government is not necessary for society and civilization to flourish and is in fact an hindrance to peace and prosperity. It's impossible to get into it deeply here but I suggest you look into it and see if it makes sense to you. These days we call ourselves libertarians, anti-statists, emergentists, or voluntaryist because the word 'anarchist' is tainted with communism and the thought of 'chaos'. Of course, it'd be stupid be for chaos. It is my contention (and others) that the government is chaos and that 'anarchy' a society without violent leaders is order. One school of economics is full of anarchists based on their conclusions about human action. This is the Austrian school which I highly recommend everyone look into if they want to see what economics was before the modern mathematical nonsense. I suggest if you want to know more you research it yourself and see if it makes sense to you. I certainly don't do it justice. Many others explain it much more precisely and eloquently than me. Here's a start.

Of course, I've wondered what the point of life was in the past. I struggled with it for a long time. My inquiry into philosophy lead me to nihilism which means I don't believe in any objective value. I only believe in subjective value. So asking the point of life is like asking the point of a rock or the point of chemical reactions. It's sort of meaningless without human consciousness, human thought, human brains and human value allocation. We allocate value. It's a construct in our minds. What are we 'meant' to do? There is no such thing. There are no objective imperatives or obligations. Such things only exist in minds. So in in a sense we choose the point of our own lives. We are however at the mercy of our own human nature and the human condition. That is we will almost certainly place value on food because of the structure of our brains that make us hungry and make us want to eat food and also because we know we will die without it and we are almost all programmed with self preservation. Buddhists try to escape it. Some people can't hack it. To me, escaping the pain so you don't get the pleasure is lame but that's just my subjective value. It's no more 'correct' than the Buddhists. That is, there is no value without human reference. There is no value other than in our brains. In short, there is no spoon. But, please, I'm curious to know your view on life. What is the 'point' or 'meaning' of life? :happy:

Of course, all discussion is meaningless without properly defined terms. There are so many highly packaged terms that I'd like to unpackage the jargon here:
*Point*: Advantage or purpose that can be gained from doing something. Relevance or effectiveness. A distinctive feature or characteristic, typically a good one, of a person or thing. 
*Meaning*: Implied or explicit _significance_. *Important or worthwhile quality; purpose*.
*Significance*: The quality of being worthy of attention; *importance*.
*Importance*: The state or fact of being of great significance or *value*.
*Value*: Consider (someone or something) to be important or *beneficial*; have a high opinion of
*Beneficial*: Favorable or advantageous; *resulting in good*
*Good*: To be desired or approved of - Basically just what we want for whatever reason or lack thereof we want it.

You could say, what is the *good *of life? What is to be desired about life? Well, whatever satisfies your desires. That could be pleasure, positive feelings, happiness or even pain if that makes you feel good. You can even be or strive to be unhappy if that's what makes you happy. :wink:


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## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Welcome to PerC, @Paeter!

I agree that there are major problems with governments, but how do you maintain order in a modern society without them?


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

Eylrid said:


> Welcome to PerC, @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=22386" target="_blank">Paeter</a></i></span> !
> 
> I agree that there are major problems with governments, but how do you maintain order in a modern society without them?


The belief that government is necessary is such an _obviously_ accepted truth that unravelling its fallacy is way too difficult for me to do on a forum board. 

All the nitty gritty of how a voluntary society could actually function without guns pointing at people to force them to get along is actually superfluous but many people have solutions. The problem of central planning and central control is that no one really knows what would come about under a system of freedom and no one can possibly now the best most efficient system that would emerge. No one person has that knowledge. However, if one or two people can come up with some systems that almost certainly can work, then millions of people cooperating out of their own self interest can certainly come up with ways far better than what can be thought up in one mind. The point is, nothing needs to be forced on people.

In any case, the main point is police, law, and order can come about through market interaction. It's not the case that there will be no police and no law under anarchy it's just that it will be quite different. There won't be people doing whatever they want, stealing, killing, and causing chaos. This is actually what the government does through wars and taxation. War is mass killing. Taxation is mass theft. Law under freedom is the inter-subjective consensus which is the beliefs and values held by nearly everyone. I don't know exactly what it is but it's probably around 95% to 99%. At the moment, government is the inter-subjective consensus by default. We grow up saturated in it and to question it is like questioning god in Saudi Arabia. To them, of course god exists, everyone knows that, and without god there would be chaos and evil everywhere.

Voilà! Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that if you want to know the nitty gritty you should read Stefan Molyneux's and Ryan Faulk's works: Practical anarchy and For an Emergent Governance. Both are free. Also, delve into the Austrian school of economics especially the works of Murray Rothbard.

This is a video by Ryan Faulk that I enjoy because it's a quick and simple explanation of the violent monopoly of the state.




A quick video on voluntary society and how competing private arbitration _could _work.




I guess I should also add this because everyone worries about laws and police. Then they usually ask, "what about the roads?!", which is actually hilarious but I asked it too. The important thing to remmeber about police is they are just *normal *guys who are hired. They are given guns and use force to get people to do things. There is nothing _different _between them and bouncers at night clubs or mall cops. The only difference is in people's minds as they believe the government to be the *legitimate final arbitrator in society.*




Oh, and when you hire a bouncer, you hire him voluntarily. Police get their wages through taxation which you cannot resist lest you get thrown in a rape dungeon/prison. Resist that and the guns come out. So at least bouncers and mall cops serve society and add value. Government police are forced on you. Before I accepted statelessness as viable I had this feeling, this underlying feeling, this underlying belief, that the police are like a dam holding back the flood of chaos and violence that would be unleashed if they were constantly there to stop it. The truth is, the police are there to protect the cooperative member of society from the few psychopaths. Most people are generally good. Most people are fairly good and see the benefit to cooperating in society. A small percentage are potential trouble makers but will fall in line. A tiny percent are just born psychopaths or sociopaths without empathy and other such human characteristics pre-wired into their brains. Prosperity and freedom gets rid of a lot of crime because committing crime has a lower cost benefit ratio than just working for a few hours. There's also no illegal drugs or substances which cause an additional 10,000 homicides a year. Milton Friedman on that: 




_I didn't manage to cut this short._


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## lib (Sep 18, 2010)

Welcome to PerC.
I'm not sure about "amoralist" but the rest of the title could be a description of me.
The previous Intro I read only left me with the info "female" so this is a nice change.
See you on INTJ (sub) Forum.


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

lib said:


> Welcome to PerC.
> I'm not sure about "amoralist" but the rest of the title could be a description of me.
> The previous Intro I read only left me with the info "female" so this is a nice change.
> See you on INTJ (sub) Forum.


That's awesome. If you agreed with everything, you'd be very rare indeed! The moral nihilism is hard for everyone. The idea that I think it's not _immoral_ to murder children is seemingly crazy. That doesn't mean, however, that I think it's good. I also don't think it's moral. I think it's neither. I think it's bad but that's different from the objective obligation with no reference to humanity. It really depends on your definition of morality. By another standard I could be an egoist or something similar. I value non-aggression, non-violence, and freedom. That's my quasi-morality. I don't think it's 'obligitory' however. It's only obligatory for a peaceful and properous society... which I value. Obligations and 'musts', I think, can only be derived from 'if' statements based on human values. If you want to live in a peaceful society, you _must _not initiate the use of violent force against them by _my _reasoning. That's not a statement about the universe, only about human affairs. That's the fundamental difference to me. Any truth statement about what is a _must _without reference to human value but only with reference to the universe itself is simply nonsensical to me. I think you'll find that I value practically everything you do too despite my moral nihilism. I just justify my assertions to an appeal to functional utility not universal objective obligation. -_- I can't shut up.


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## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Are you familiar with the Seasteading institute?


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

sup bro

edit: I can't read.

I also like Stephan Molyneux, it's rare I find others who have heard of him. The political arena is a scary place but I was very interested in his ideas. Right on


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

Eylrid said:


> Are you familiar with the Seasteading institute?


Actually, yes I've heard of it. I'm a fan of Milton Friedman and found his son David Friedman who is a philosopher and anarcho-capitalist economist. David's son is also an economist which is where I found out about Seasteading. It's a very creative solution to the problem since no state owns international waters. I'm not familiar with the particulars of how it would work in practise but I think it certainly _could _work if the technology and demand was there. I'm also interested in Doug Casey's attempt to buy a part of a country and privatize it. He was never successful but perhaps one day, it might be possible get some land from a state and form a state free zone.


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## lolthevoidlol (May 19, 2011)

hello hello hello!


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## Five (Mar 27, 2011)

Paeter said:


> In short, there is no spoon. But, please, I'm curious to know your view on life. What is the 'point' or 'meaning' of life?


You preaching to the converted. Life is an emergent property of complexity and doesn't exist outside our our framework.

That aside, the point to life is simple.

*One must exist as long as possible*

That is the most rational goal a sentient can have. Everything should be sub-goals from that.


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

Five said:


> You preaching to the converted. Life is an emergent property of complexity and doesn't exist outside our our framework.
> 
> That aside, the point to life is simple.
> 
> ...


Awesome. I can see that. Considering life itself more valuable than any other aspect within life itself seems rational indeed. There are thing that increase my likelihood of death but I still do them because I find the risks to be marginal for the benefit gained such as driving a car and going out. I definitely want to live my life. I guess you'd be interested in caloric restriction with optimum nutrition if you want to increase your maximum and average life span. I'm not sure if I can hack it though. Living to 110 sounds awesome but the drawbacks are hard to pay. Also, are you interested in longevity and anti-aging? Have you read or heard of Ray Kurzweil's technological predictions? It's quite possible that some of us alive today will be amongst the first 200, 500, and 1000 year olds. The point is if you make it 2050-2070 thanks to the coming biotech revolution, you'll probably end up living a lot longer than you think. I look forward to humanoid robots with human level movement and intelligence enabling them to do manual labour. The restructuring of the labour force and huge spike in productive capacity is going to give us all extremely high standards of living. That's something worth living long enough to see. Working 5 hours a week anyone?


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## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Five said:


> You preaching to the converted. Life is an emergent property of complexity and doesn't exist outside our our framework.
> 
> That aside, the point to life is simple.
> 
> ...


Contrary to popular belief, natural selection is not directly a matter of survival, but of reproduction. Survival only affects evolution insofar as it affects reproduction.


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## Epimer (Mar 21, 2011)

Paeter said:


> I thought I'd introduce myself with something more interesting than 'hello'. I'm here to meet interesting people, people who think more like me, learn new things, and perhaps gain a little insight into myself. Physically, I'm 21 years old, 6'5, Caucasian, and have brown curly hair and hazel eyes. I enjoy reading on this site about other INTJs and also other personality similar types to mine like INTPs. I sometimes feel alone and strange and wonder if I'm the one who is crazy but knowing there are others out there with similar personalities is comforting and insightful. :happy:


Hello INTJ!

I am an INTP. Although some of the INFJ's think I'm one of their own at times.

Anyway, I digress, so...
*Hello & Welcome!*


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## Paeter (May 18, 2011)

We aren't universally _obliged _to survive or reproduce but rather we _are here because _our ancestors survived long enough to reproduce. Any arguments about what we must do are subjective value judgments or causal relationship assessments that only exist within human minds.

'One must survive as long as possible' cannot be shown to be true. It's not a description of reality; it's not a statement about reality so it's not a fact. This is because of the is-ought problem. I haven't read deeply into it or about Nietzsche but I just found this article  linking from the is-ought article which articulates what I guess I'm trying to get at. I should really read some Nietzsche. It looks like he's thought through this before much deeper than I have.


"The fact-value distinction is a concept used to distinguish between arguments which can be claimed through reason alone, and those where rationality is limited to describing a collective opinion. In another formulation, it is the distinction between what is (can be discovered by science, philosophy or reason) and what ought to be (a judgment which can be agreed upon by consensus). The terms positive and normative represent another manner of expressing this, as do the terms descriptive and prescriptive, respectively. Positive statements make the implicit claim to facts (e.g. water molecules are made up of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom), whereas normative statements make a claim to values or to norms (e.g. water ought to be protected from environmental pollution)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact-value_distinction

I wonder if there is a "fundamental value axiom" that drives my value system. A value that cannot be de-constructed any further. I have a feeling that it might be self value or fundamentally necessarily valuing myself. I should dive into Ayn Rand more on that one.


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## kranthi (May 25, 2011)

*communication skills*

thanks for posting


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