# I am a woman in a STEM field - Ask me anything



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

If you have any questions about women in STEM, experiences, challenges, advantages, etc - feel free to ask!

I have M.Sc. in Chemical Engineering from Sweden and a PhD in the same from the US.
I have been working for a technology company for 10 years in R&D.
I did a past doc for another company - also R&D.
I worked as a lab analyst during some down time in Sweden.

I am married and have two 2-year old girls. My husband is an engineer too (B.Sc. in ChemE).

Any other STEM women (or men for that matter), feel free to jump in and share your observations and experiences as well.


----------



## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

What job titles have you taken in the field of R&D? What do you like most about working in this field? What can I do to prepare myself if I wanted to work in this field? What skills and qualities does a person need to have in order to be successful and gain satisfaction in this type of work?

What challenges and advantages have you had during school and in the real work world?

As for job culture, what type of people/team do you work with (genders, mbti types, etc.)?


----------



## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Would love to hear your thoughts on the pros and cons of working in academia vs. industry. Why you would or would not want to be in academia, horror stories, things you love/hate about either arena, etc.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

rawr_sheila said:


> What job titles have you taken in the field of R&D?


My title has always been R&D Scientist. One of my bosses changed my engineering status from Chemical Engineer to Materials Engineer unbeknownst to me (which really annoyed me). Since I work out in industry, I am never called "Dr".



> What do you like most about working in this field?


It is a great fit to my personality and natural skill set, so the job is pretty easy. 
I like problem solving in general and learning new things every day. I like that the job has a built in change in that we are moving forward with the project/s, which means that it is fairly seldom too repetitive and mundane - it's intellectually stimulating.
I like working with a bunch of pretty intelligent and efficient people on a very complex system that comes together in the end.
I like that the job is pretty independent of others - good mix between team work and independent work.
I like the fact that we are more logically driven than emotionally driven, compared to many other work places. 
I like the pay-check, the independence, the relative job-security (I know that I'll likely be able to find a new job fairly easily if I lose the one I have) and the relative freedom (engineering changes very little across the world, compared to law for example).

I really can't see myself doing anything else.



> What can I do to prepare myself if I wanted to work in this field?


Figure out what your strength are and try to hone them in a way that will help them be applicable. 
You can study and learn more about absolutely anything on the internet, which could be very helpful in helping prep for a college education - sometimes just being familiar with a concept can give you a great advantage. I would recommend reading up on Six Sigma and Lean. Logical thinking is of course extremely important.

You will pretty much have to get a degree in a scientific field and if not in engineering be careful with what you pick. For example, it is very hard to get a job as a biochemist or biologist, at least if you don't have a higher degree. Basically, if you are investing in a career within science, be sure to invest in the right branch. You can always switch fields after your education has been completed. Engineering is nice because it is fairly easy to cross over into other fields once you are out on the market and start gathering experience.

Engineering is also interesting because it is an education and practice in how to educate yourself as quickly as possible. The goal is not necessarily to cram a bunch of knowledge into your brain and hope that it sticks for forever, but the goal is to learn how to become an expert quickly, so how to ask the relevant questions and find the relevant data. Basically, learn how to think and get some useful tools on the way.
Engineers (especially not ChemEs) don't really specialize in one confined system compared to for example medical doctors or lawyers until the PhD level, so you get to try a lot of different things, which can be a great way to find something you really enjoy. My M.Sc. is in Heat & Mass Transfer and my Ph.D. in Nanotechnology, so worlds apart.

As a woman, you also need to be aware that some fields are more male dominated than others and that can cause a lot of stress. You need to have passion enough for the field not to let that type of stress get to you.



> What skills and qualities does a person need to have in order to be successful and gain satisfaction in this type of work?


You have to like problem solving, be detail oriented, detect patterns easily and like to learn new things. You have to be stubborn and passionate about finding the solution to the problem you are working on and also recognize that there can be many ways to solve problems.
Recognize that you have to balance what is elegant and 'right' and what is efficient.



> What challenges and advantages have you had during school and in the real work world?


The engineering education is pretty fast paced and the quality can differ greatly between different universities and fields. There was a huge difference in culture and system between the Swedish and the US universities I attended. The US education was more frustrating in many ways (way more politics and bureaucracy), but I am sure that different US Universities are very different.

In the real world, it has been being a woman in a male dominated field, hands down. That came as a shock, tbh. 



> As for job culture, what type of people/team do you work with (genders, mbti types, etc.)?


We are 10% women in the area I work in. Most of my team leads and bosses have been men and I'd say that about 1/3 have been great to work for.

Mixed ages and engineering/scientific backgrounds.

I deliberately keep a bit on the side of the teams, because I am not a fan of the unproductive meetings and the exclusionary culture that always seem to exist no matter where you go. I am pretty blunt (in regards to the work we are doing) to be a woman in the South, so I think that many of my colleagues are a bit intimidated by me.

MBTI, I'd say prominently Te-types and introverts. My boss is an INTP and my team-lead is an ESTJ and 6w5. There are plenty of INTJs, so it's a great place for me to feel normal and understood compared to the real world. XD Pretty few feelers and they are fairly easy to spot.

Great questions and good luck with your career!


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Eleventeenth said:


> Would love to hear your thoughts on the pros and cons of working in academia vs. industry. Why you would or would not want to be in academia, horror stories, things you love/hate about either arena, etc.


*Academia:*
Hahaha! I can tell you that after my 10 years in college, I was not about to stay for another moment! 

To me, the reason why I would not fit well in academia in the US: the bureaucracy, the politics (I swear I almost lost my mind!), the attitude towards teaching and towards the students.
Teaching is something that you need to have a passion for, IMO. Most professors are more passionate about their research projects than the responsibility/opportunity to raise the next generation of professionals. The way I see it, the university is providing a service to the students - the students are actually customers who pay a load of money to get help getting the best education that they can possibly get. The attitude in the US university was more the other way around; the professors seem to think that they are doing the students a favor. In reality, the students were pretty much on their own and expected to learn through homework rather than lessons. (Might vary significantly between different colleges though.)

I would also find it less than stimulating to teach the same subject every year. There would not be a forward movement or development and I would get bored which would affect the way I would engage my students. I am a person who needs new challenges constantly, or I get bored, depressed and sloppy.

_Somewhat Amusing University Horror Story:_
Discussion between the DGS and myself, after he had yet again suggested that I needed to take one more undergrad class in engineering (he hated my professor, which I actually understand, but he used me to get to my professor, which I was not happy about). Great example illustrating politics and bureaucracy at work...
*Me: * Fine, but as I understand it I have the right to transfer 12 class credits from my MSc degree in Sweden.
*DGS:* No, we can't really do that.
*Me: * Why?
*DGS:* Because you don't really have a MSc. (We have a different system in Sweden than in the US, which was the basis for this pretty outrageous insult.)
*Me:* All right, then I'd like to get switched over to the MSC program and I can graduate tomorrow!
*DGS:* No, we can't really do that.
*Me:* Why not?
*DGS:* Because you already have a MSc.
*Me:* - - - (Waiting to see whether he would pick up on what he just said...)
*DGS:* (Fairly long pause) Fine, we'll transfer 12 credits for you tomorrow and you are officially done with your class work - after you take the undergrad class in Mass & Heat Transfer, of course.
*Me:* (All perky) Great - thanks, I appreciate it Dr B!

_I did actually get thrown out of the class in question because I know more than the professor teaching it and she was not comfortable having me there... lol_

*Industry:*
Love has been listed in the reply above - as you can see, I do truly love what I do.

The most frustrating issue has been the challenge related to working in a male dominated field. We are only 10% women in the area where I work, so we are a clear minority. It is apparent that we often don't get heard, acknowledged, or treated fairly/equally (I am planning on creating a separate post on this). The nice thing is that I turned my negative experiences around and by a coincidence became a mentor to my (at the time) 3rd line manager to teach him how to keep the women in his area, since there was a mass-exodus of all female engineers and he could not understand why. (My second line manager asked me to mentor my third line).
After that, I became known as a change agent and got invited to speak to several executives, HR, our local SWE chapter and the Women's organization at work. This, among other efforts, did actually result in a culture change with more women in the manager roles and improved recruitment of women engineers and the demotion of managers (male & female) who were promoting a gender biased culture. The third-line was asked to retire within just a year after we had the sessions and my second-line got promoted up in the ranks and unfortunately away from me - he is a great boss and a really fair guy. 

_Somewhat Amusing Industry Horror Story:_ 
Just came from a task force meeting where I had pointed out that a male colleague has analyzed the data that he and I had gathered completely incorrectly, which lead to a recommendation completely opposing what we actually needed to do. I sent out my analysis of the very same data set and manufacturing decided to go with my recommendation. The mfg manager called me specifically to thank me for catching the error before they had implemented changes that would have lead to more damage.
I also get a call from my female manager asking me to come over to her office. Naive as I am, I assume that she wants to thanks me for catching the error...

*Her:* So .... I would like for you to apologize to Tom.
*Me:* (Flabbergasted) For him being wrong, jeopardizing our production and me pointing it out and saving a bunch of money for the company?
*Her:* Yes, well, you could have wrapped it in more. Like that joke you did at the end, that was good; everyone was laughing and it was nice. You should do more of that. (Really!? I wasn't aware that I was hired on as a clown and not as an engineer.)
*Me:* But this is a task force, we don't have time to tip-toe around, be 'nice', and pretend that people are right when they are not. Production starts as soon as we make the call!
*Her: *Yes, but we are a team. (Huh!?)
*Me: * All right, but then he should apologize to me for putting me in a situation where I was forced to call him out. He used my data to draw false conclusions and luckily I suspected that he might, which is why I ran the ANOVA in parallel in the first place. You need to have a talk with his manager so that he can have a talk with Tom about this mistake. (Tom used linear regression, not ANOVA.)
*Her: *Well... I am still feeling Tom's manager out. I don't really know him that well yet... (So she is willing to throw her own people under the bus, but not willing to do her own job. Not a good trait in a manager.)
*Me:* Tell me, Kate, if I would have been a man and I would have said the same thing in the meeting, would you have told me to apologize to Tom?
*Her:* (Longish pause...) No, probably not.
*Me: * - - - - (Thinking "Wow, at least she has the backbone (or lack of common sense) to be honest")
_
I was stupid enough to apologize to Tom who answered with "Yeah, with that attitude you won't go far in this company". Neither Tom not Kate work for the company anymore... :-b
_


----------



## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

The question isn't about women in engineering in particular, but what is it like to earn a PhD? What's the whole process like?


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

FakeLefty said:


> The question isn't about women in engineering in particular, but what is it like to earn a PhD? What's the whole process like?


I think that it varies highly between individuals and between the university and field they get the PhD in. Some people are chomping at the bit and longing to graduate and earn some money ASAP, while others are totally fine taking all the time in the world.


The practical process I went through was: 
- Graduated high school from the Natural Science program. 
- Took a sabbatical for 1 year to figure out what I wanted to do in college - I worked in an ice-cream bar during that year. I didn't figure it out, so I applied to the ChemE MSc program to see if I would like it.
- Picked my speciality after 3 years.
- Graduated in 5.5 years, which is one year later than scheduled, but I worked extra in the ice-cream bar and as a lab analyst for a while towards the end of my education. 
- Last summer went to the US to work as an exchange researcher for the summer. Got offered a scholarship towards a PhD and accepted (since I met me husband-to-be that summer). 
- Went back home to Stockholm, graduated, fixed visa, packed & shipped everything I owned over to the US, and took my Swedish drivers license. 
- Earned my PhD in 4.5 years, which is actually pretty quick, relatively speaking. Got published in some pretty nice journals. 
- Did a post doc for one year at a pretty small research center for a major company in the auto-industry.
- Applied to one single company, got called in for all-day interviews twice, got & accepted job offer and have been there ever since.



* *




In retrospect on a more personal level, I was neither mature nor healthy enough to really appreciate the opportunity I was given to earn a MSc and the journey to get there. We are probably a bit spoiled in Sweden seeing that college is free, so some of us might take it for granted a bit too much. I was dealing with a lot of issues/drama at the time, so I was not as focused as I could have been, but I have always been extremely disciplined when needed and I did what it took to graduate. 


The PhD was challenging because I went from a system that treats college students like adults to a system where even grad students are treated as kids in many ways. I also went from a department with over 50% women to one where I was one of very few women and the cultural shock was pretty big there too. I was extremely lonely for the first 4-5 years living in the US - the fact that I am extremely stubborn was what got me through the program. The systems are also very different (see last paragraph).


So for me, the biggest challenges were probably everything around me/myself rather than the class-work, even though looking back, there is no chance that I'd ever take on that degree of a challenge again. I am way too old to have that level of determination and drive anymore. 
That said, my education has given me a lot of invaluable positives that impacts my life on an everyday basis; economical stability, independence, relative job security, and a greatly improved self-esteem and sense of worth. 


I strongly believe that it's more important to be stubborn and disciplined than to be highly intelligent when it comes to reaching a long-term goal such as a higher education in an intense field. I don't consider myself smarter than the average person. 
Passion probably helps too, but I have never been especially passionate about engineering. I think it's fun and I enjoy it, but I don't really have passion for it. Or if I do, it's a pretty low key passion. I never planned on getting a PhD or switching continents, it just kinda' happened.

The Swedish college system is really nice in that is very flexible; you have three chances/year to take the final in any of your classes (you are allowed to take all three finals if you'd like too). You don't have to retake the class, but you can take a final years after you took the class. And no homework. 
On the other hand, most finals are 6 hrs long and it's intense writing that entire time. We also have classes scheduled from 8 to 5 every day and all classes are applicable towards the MSc, so no credits for tennis classes, etc. The 'softest' elective classes offered were Medical Technology (which I took) and Technical German or Technical French (it is assumed that you already know Technical English, since a lot of our books are written in English). The hardest semesters were when we took organic chemistry class & lab: theory class from 8-5, lab class from 8-8 and we were high from the fumes pretty much all that time. I am not a fan of organic chemistry.... 




Hope that I answered your question somewhere in all the ramblings...


----------



## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

This question is for @_Swede_. Do you believe the glass ceiling still exists for women in the workplace? I've heard that the main barrier to corporate success for women in maturity but otherwise are roughly equal in terms of advancement opportunities. Is that true or is there still work to be done? Thanks.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

MNiS said:


> This question is for @_Swede_. Do you believe the glass ceiling still exists for women in the workplace? I've heard that the main barrier to corporate success for women in maturity but otherwise are roughly equal in terms of advancement opportunities. Is that true or is there still work to be done? Thanks.


You are touching on a really good and interesting subject! Before I answer, can you clarify what " I've heard that the main barrier to corporate success for women in maturity " means, please? I assume that it's a typo, but wanted to check whether I am misunderstanding before I respond.


----------



## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Swede said:


> You are touching on a really good and interesting subject! Before I answer, can you clarify what " I've heard that the main barrier to corporate success for women in maturity " means, please? I assume that it's a typo, but wanted to check whether I am misunderstanding before I respond.


Yes, that was a typo sorry. I make those types of mistakes when I'm posting while tired. That "in" is supposed to be an "is".

What are your thoughts on the subject? Thanks!


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

MNiS said:


> Yes, that was a typo sorry. I make those types of mistakes when I'm posting while tired. That "in" is supposed to be an "is".


All right, does the statement refer to the level of women's maturity, men's maturity or society's maturity? 

Personally, I think that all of the above are factors, but if the statement alludes to the level of women's maturity being lower than that of the men, it's a pretty odd statement, seeing that young women are generally considered more mature than young men are from many aspects. Was the statement explained to you in a way that would explain better?

In regards to "is there still work to be done?". In the STEM field in corporate USA, yes, absolutely! There are many data driven studies showing that there are still plenty of challenges that women meet in the field of engineering. I and my female colleagues have experienced quite a few of these challenges. 
It's an important issue, because IMO, most of these challenges ties back to constructed gender roles based on tradition and biases in society. Many of these roles/stereotypes do not fit all individuals and are therefore damaging (applicable to both men and women). 

I'll elaborate when I get a larger chunk of time to spend at the computer.


----------



## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Swede said:


> All right, does the statement refer to the level of women's maturity, men's maturity or society's maturity?
> 
> Personally, I think that all of the above are factors, but if the statement alludes to the level of women's maturity being lower than that of the men, it's a pretty odd statement, seeing that young women are generally considered more mature than young men are from many aspects. Was the statement explained to you in a way that would explain better?


I suppose in terms of society's maturity since a company's culture is more than likely influenced by society's standards.



Swede said:


> In regards to "is there still work to be done?". In the STEM field in corporate USA, yes, absolutely! There are many data driven studies showing that there are still plenty of challenges that women meet in the field of engineering. I and my female colleagues have experienced quite a few of these challenges.
> It's an important issue, because IMO, most of these challenges ties back to constructed gender roles based on tradition and biases in society. Many of these roles/stereotypes do not fit all individuals and are therefore damaging (applicable to both men and women).


Yes, I was thinking about breaking the question up into different categories since opportunities in STEM fields tend to be different in older and more traditions based industries where the old boys clubs in the boardroom still exists. Also, do you find that you also have to, in a sense, prove yourself to your male engineer colleagues since women in engineering specifically tend to be less prevalent in say, science.



Swede said:


> I'll elaborate when I get a larger chunk of time to spend at the computer.


Thanks. The topic of technical fields and gender has been something I've been wondering about for a long time.


----------



## Super-Yoshi (Mar 2, 2014)

How have you been able to balance your family life and work life (especially that both you and your husband are engineers)? Did you ever had to choose between one or the other?


----------



## piscesfish (Nov 30, 2013)

How are feelers (particularly Fe-Ti) generally received in STEM fields? Have you seen them be able to succeed on the level that thinkers do, or is that the rare exception? Do they often need to "play catchup" regarding the heavy rationality involved, or are their separate strengths appreciated, despite being in a science field? (This isn't about women per se.)

You mentioned this a little in one of the earlier posts, and if you could elaborate on it, that would be great


----------



## piscesfish (Nov 30, 2013)

Oh, I just thought of another one! Did you find that your field was more dominated by Te users or Ti users? How did that affect your experience? Thank you


----------



## mony (Jun 18, 2014)

FakeLefty said:


> The question isn't about women in engineering in particular, but what is it like to earn a PhD? What's the whole process like?


I am 2nd year grad student currently in the process. It really depends on who your PI is and how well you take advantage of graduate school. If you love what you study and have a great relationship with your PI/lab group, then it can be a fun experience. Sadly, otherwise it can be a discouraging and very depressing.

Either way, the amount of work increases and you have to dedicate a majority of your time and effort to succeeding in graduate school. Getting an A in classes is a minor success. You need useful data to publish in prestigious journals and trying to get an experiment to work is a daunting experience, especially when you think you did everything right and followed the procedure word for word. Also, having a well-known, prestigious PI is very helpful in getting in landing a good job after getting your PhD.

I have to qualify this spring and I am really scared because anyone can ask me any question during my oral presentation... and, if I cannot answer the questions accurately, then I could fail and not enter candidacy :shocked:


----------



## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Why did you choose Chemical Engineering and stick with it?


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

piscesfish said:


> Oh, I just thought of another one! Did you find that your field was more dominated by Te users or Ti users? How did that affect your experience? Thank you


It's hard for me to say, because I'm not really great at functions or typing others. I also don't really interact a lot with others. I can say that I'm probably more Te than most, so I have a hard time with concepts that are too abstract, but I have a knack for making sense of most things. I am a pretty typical engineer/INTJ; I get a problem and provide a stable solution, generally in a very efficient way. I can see all the tests and info I need to gather before I can make my recommendation very early on - my plan does not change a whole lot once I've determined what the most efficient path is. DMAIC is pretty much based on Te in my opinion. 

On the other hand, I am not a great inventor. Even though I do have a few patents I don't often think outside the box, I don't often have visions or make assumptions like "wouldn't it be cool if xxx" and "imagine that xxx". I am based very much in reality and I am very focused on being objective. This can be a great disadvantage. My Te tends to talk over my Ni.

The people who I assume are Ti users are what I generally refer to as "the crazy scientist", but it would make sense if the design engineers would be part of this group too. They come up with the ideas, they have the visions and the imagination, the passion, the enthusiasm, the attitude that anything is possible. They are the basis for the company in a way, seeing that they are the true inventors, but we would never get anywhere unless the ideas were 'anchored' in Te to make sure that the dreams are translated into reality. Both types are extremely important I'd say.

Do you think this makes sense? It's possible that I've misunderstood Te vs Ti completely. But if I'm correct, then I'd say that we are a few more Te users than Ti users, even though it is hard for me to tell, since all engineers are expected to use DMAIC, even though it doesn't come naturally to some engineers. I think that most Ti users that are not 'crazy scientists' or designers generally get promoted into manager positions, but I might be completely incorrect about that.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Why did you choose Chemical Engineering and stick with it?


I was really interested in biology and biochemistry in high school. Everything is chemistry and it all hangs together - life is chemistry! But through career counseling in high school, I was told that a professional within the fields of chemistry/biochemistry/biology won't get a job unless they have a PhD. Since that was not part of my plan at the time, I switched biochemistry for chemical engineering, since I was pretty good at chemistry too. I figured that ChemE would at least contain some chemistry. 

My dad is an engineer and I'm the oldest daughter out if three, so I didn't have any older siblings to compete against. I guess that I in a way subconsciously chose to compete against my dad and I went to the same college as he did, which is KTH in Stockholm. This college only produces engineers, so chemical engineering became the natural choice. And in part, it was also an attempt to make my parents proud of me.

I was was actually surprised how well it fit me, so it was easy to stick with it even though I think I would have done well in pretty much any engineering field. That said, I find EE very challenging. On the other hand, challenges motivate me, so I might have been able to pull through there too.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

piscesfish said:


> How are feelers (particularly Fe-Ti) generally received in STEM fields? Have you seen them be able to succeed on the level that thinkers do, or is that the rare exception? Do they often need to "play catchup" regarding the heavy rationality involved, or are their separate strengths appreciated, despite being in a science field? (This isn't about women per se.)
> 
> You mentioned this a little in one of the earlier posts, and if you could elaborate on it, that would be great


Wow, this is a hard one. I have seen many feelers on this board who can hold their own better than many thinkers can when it comes to logical reasoning and expressing themselves in a way that is easy to understand. 

The only feelers (and thinkers too, for that matter) I have a hard time with are the aggressive and the dramatic ones - unfortunately, they are the easily noticeable ones, so they tend to give the other feelers a bad rep.
Where I work, people generally have a hard time getting along with this type of personality, because they seem to forget to be objective and they tend to use emotional blackmail and manipulation to advance. It seems that the truth is less important than their personal gain. In other words, I suspect that they might not be healthy feelers - many of them are for example convinced that they are thinkers, which generally means that they have some unresolved issues they need to deal with. It seems more common with male feelers in particular, probably both because 90% of the people I work with are men but also because men often automatically assume that they are driven by logic and Te and I can see them possibly be frustrated because something feels off.

People like me don't like confrontation or wasting energy on drama (or even on natural mood swings), so we tend to withdraw when we detect a pattern of frequent (to us) emotional outbreaks. It's easy for me to 'give in' or just give up when strong emotions are displayed, but when it comes to R&D, I can't compromise, so it can lead to really uncomfortable situations for both parties. 

Hopefully this his makes sense and I hope that I haven't offended anyone with my ignorance as to how feelers function. I'm not real sure that I should have answered this at all, tbh. :-/
Please feel free to educate me, anyone! @_mony_, you are an INFJ, any thoughts on this Q & A?


----------



## mony (Jun 18, 2014)

@Swede thanks for asking, I will gladly provide some insight. 

Yes, I am am a feeler (Fe-Ti) and I do have a tendency to absorb others emotions around me (sigh). However, the great thing about graduate school is that it provides you the opportunity to grow and learn how to be a professional. I have learned to balance my Fe with my Ti, and that has proven to be very effective so far. I also apologize to people around me and ask for advice on handling situations, so my colleagues are more sympathizing and quick to forgive my silly actions.

Using Fe for rhetoric to sell your idea and Ti to process scientific explanations is very powerful. Plus, having Ni as a dominant function introduces creativity and innovative thinking.

Fe-Ti users struggle with communication initially, but if they learn how to prepare what they have to say in their heads (Ti) in a quick manner before speaking, then they can easily be mistaken for a Te user. 

Overall, both Fe-Ti and Fi-Te users have their struggles in grad school. Fe users have the upper hand when it comes to networking and Te users have the advantage in quickly processing scientific ideas. Over time though, both can be equally successful if they learn to live with their functions and use them to their advantage in the professional realm.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Xenos said:


> How have you been able to balance your family life and work life (especially that both you and your husband are engineers)? Did you ever had to choose between one or the other?


Great question! I work for a company that has been pretty good in that regard. I have also predominately worked for managers who have fairly young families themselves, so they understand what it takes to balance professional and family life. There has been no issues with maternity leave, daycare pickups, home with sick kids, etc. Everyone has been very understanding and supportive. 


I don't really feel that I have been forced to choose between one or the other as much as I have the freedom to choose to prioritize one over the other and that makes a huge difference. 
To me, the kids always come first - after all, I work so that I can support my family together with my husband. Before kids I used to be a workaholic; worked late, came in on weekends, etc, but I don't anymore. 
TBH, I don't really feel stressed out about this, possibly because I had my kids so late in life that my career was already pretty well-established. I have a solid income, a good track record, and a fair number of weeks vacation per year. 

I have also learned that if you work a ton extra you seldom get thanked or rewarded, but you will be expected to continue putting in your personal time into the company and you basically spoil your employer. My husband still doesn't get this, so I do have to take on more of the family duty than he does. I try to talk with him about this every now and again, but good luck getting an INTJ to listen. ;-)

And finally, I have had to learn that duty and loyalty is fine, but don't forget to play too. I am old enough to understand that my kids will only be kids now and that time flies. If I want to see them grow up and enjoy the stages in their development, now is the time to do it because it will be too late 20 years from now. And I know that I'm a better mom if I'm not stressed out about not being perfect, not always being there, or not being a 'super-mom' who does it all. There is no doubt in my mind that I would be a terrible stay-at-home mom - it takes a temperament that I don't think I have.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks, @mony! Would you mind responding to #15 too? I get the impression that you are much better at cognitive functions than I am.


----------



## mony (Jun 18, 2014)

piscesfish said:


> Oh, I just thought of another one! Did you find that your field was more dominated by Te users or Ti users? How did that affect your experience? Thank you


 @Swede this is the question you are referring to, right?
@piscesfish

I am a feeler (INFJ) and am well accepted by the scientific community (or at least that's what people tell me). Both Ti and Te users are common in the workplace. It's amazing how diverse a lab group can be and collaborating with Te users has been a wonderful experience for me. I have had Te user tell me how useful I was in finding tiny mistakes because I completely focused all my attention and brain power (in silence of course as a Ti) on a particular answer he had to a question. 

I think having low confidence/self esteem in graduate school is the biggest impediment feelers must overcome. Ti users are just as successful as Te users in understanding abstract and difficult concepts in the sciences. However, because Te users easily articulate their thoughts in a coherent manner, many people interpret them as confident and therefore intellectual individuals. Even though Fe-Ti users can have the same level of understanding, they struggle in expressing their ideas because of how daunting their emotions or insecurities can be to them. This can be interpreted as low self esteem and potentially support the stereotype of feelers inability to succeed in the sciences. Nevertheless, I think the Fe-Ti users are certainly able to handle the "heavy thinking" in the sciences and grad school is a wonderful opportunity to sharpen the Ti function in feelers. 

Also, I believe INTPs are Ti users and they are known to be the stereotypical researchers (e.g. Albert Einstein). I don't think that Te users have an advantage over Ti users. Anyone can succeed, but you need to understand how to use you functions as tools to succeed. What comes easily to you may be difficult for others and vice versa. That's the beauty of grad school. People from different backgrounds and ways of thinking introduce new observations and ideas to make it a dynamic and fantastic experience. 

I personally struggled in the beginning to articulate my thoughts, but once I found a way to express my thoughts to my PI and lab mates, they were quite impressed by my skills in the sciences. If you want more detailed stories, I will be happy to share them. But for now, I'll try to keep this post short-ish.

I hope this helps!


----------



## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

Do/Have you worked with any ISTJ coworkers? What is work like for them? In your view, what are the strengths and weaknesses that they bring to the team? What are the difficulties that they struggle with?


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

rawr_sheila said:


> Do/Have you worked with any ISTJ coworkers? What is work like for them? In your view, what are the strengths and weaknesses that they bring to the team? What are the difficulties that they struggle with?


Yes, one of my team leads is an ISTJ. We work really well together (in fact, he is the best team-lead I have had in years), in part because I am very structured and I get stuff done, so he doesn't feel the need to micromanage me. I know that he can be pretty impatient with some other colleagues because they are not focused/productive enough or focused on the right things. I would personally go insane if I was micromanaged, so luckily he is too busy with the others to keep track of me too much - I think that we are both happy about that.

His role fits him very well, since they fit his strengths - he is keeping our short- and long-term goals in focus and makes sure that the rest of the team does too. His team is focused on delivering solutions, while he is focused on his team delivering the solutions on time. Both are necessary, but he has to be careful not to ask for the impossible or to cause too much stress wile breathing down peoples' necks. He is very focused on schedules and always asks for the plans to be pulled into a time-table with target dates, which is challenging for me as an INTJ, since I see so many different scenarios and I don't like to commit to a schedule I can't guarantee I will be able to meet. I have learned to relax a bit and be less intimidated in regards to time-tables and scheduling thanks to him.

I can see that some of the stereotypical ISTJ need to follow rules and do things by the books applies to him. This serves him and his team well in that he is very familiar with what needs to get done in order to check the boxes. 

As I said earlier, he is not patient with incompetence/laziness (but neither am I, tbh). He uses sarcasm or controlled anger to convey his frustration. I would imagine that he and his team could benefit from him being more patient with his team, since a loyal team that feels respected is far more productive than one that feels threatened or stressed. Patience generally comes with maturity and he is fairly new in the team-leader role, so I think that he'll do well in this area before too many years too.

Hope that this answers the questions enough in-depth and I'd like to hear what you have to say in regards to my assessment - do you think that this feels familiar to you as an ISTJ?


----------



## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Swede said:


> I was was actually surprised how well it fit me, so it was easy to stick with it even though I think I would have done well in pretty much any engineering field. That said, I find EE very challenging. On the other hand, challenges motivate me, so I might have been able to pull through there too.


I just now made the connection to your profile pic. XD

Why/how did you find EE challenging?

I understand it's one of the harder engineering majors, but the main complaint I hear is that it's too abstract and tedious, especially from ME types.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> I just now made the connection to your profile pic. XD
> 
> Why/how did you find EE challenging?
> 
> I understand it's one of the harder engineering majors, but the main complaint I hear is that it's too abstract and tedious, especially from ME types.


I honestly don't really know. I never got into it enough to understand what it was I found so difficult (but I did have to take a class in it). Some of it might have been that the concepts comes across a bit random and unorganized in a way. For example, the number of different units and they all mean almost the same - it just frustrates me. 
Then you add magnetism and argh! Ironically, one of the projects I work on is magnetism and I am doing pretty well, which just goes to show that you really don't necessarily have to know all the theory in order to solve a practical issue.


Also, in a way I feel that the math developed for the EE filed is too 'constructed'. I am a big fan of classical math, I find it quite beautiful and it is an art form in iteself. It can be very elegant and quite poetic. 
It seems to me that the mathematical functions have been very much forced and manipulated to fit and express the various curves in EE and it feels unnatural in a way. But this impression might be based on the fact that I am not well versed enough in the area. 


It's also possible that I feel the pressure because my dad worked in the power industry for the largest part of his professional career. In spite of being a civil engineer, he ended up working more as an EE. Anyway, maybe I'm just nervous about really comparing myself to my father? I am not a person who does well competing against others; it tends to stress me out and I start to fumble.


That said, I do like challenges, so every now and again I read about general & basic EE concepts online to try to 'get it'. I haven't gotten to the breakthrough yet...


Glad that you found the profile pic amusing!


----------



## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

@_Swede_

With out getting to personal beyond comfort, how has your skills from your career impacted your day to day lifestyle?
What has transferred into helping you life outside of your work?

I'm just thinking:
"I'm an engineer, I have a great knowledge and skill set to problem solve real world problems, what cool stuff do I want to use my super powers of knowledge for in my free time? What will my knowledge tool kit be able to solve or improve?"


----------



## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

Did you go to a STEM specialized college for it? If so, how was the experience? Were you the minority gender-wise?


----------



## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

Wellsy said:


> @_Swede_
> 
> With out getting to personal beyond comfort, how has your skills from your career impacted your day to day lifestyle?
> *What has transferred into helping you life outside of your work?*
> ...


I'm not Swede  but I am a female in a STEM field. 

I find it's actually the other way around for me. It wasn't engineering that gave me the knowledge and skill set. It's the knowledge and skill set that makes me good at engineering. I went into a tech field because it complemented my innate abilities. Doing technical work and being surrounded by a plethora of IxTx's has certainly helped me develop, refine and enhance some of those natural talents. For the most part though, the skills came before the job.

One way that the job has helped is actually in my non-technical abilities. The company I work for makes huge investments into the development of "softskills" - things like negotiation, communication, mediation, leadership, etc. Those courses have been invaluable in helping me learn how to relate to people in general, not just on the job.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Playful Proxy said:


> Did you go to a STEM specialized college for it? If so, how was the experience? Were you the minority gender-wise?


Yes I went to KTH, a university in Stockholm that specializes in producing MSc in 9 different engineering disciplines. (It's also the university that gives out the Nobel prize.). We were 53% women in the ChemE program the year I started. Most other disciplines have lower percentages of women, but I think that the Civil Engineering program was pretty close. 
The experience was great! I got to know people who were pretty similar to me in many ways. We had a great time socializing and the environment was not competitive, but we helped each other quite a bit. The class work was pretty intense, but I had gone to one of the most competitive high school in Sweden, so it really want that much harder by comparison. 
I think that everyone felt that university was a new beginning. A fresh start, a chance to redefine yourself. The feel was comfortable and I socialized quite a bit; most of my friends were men, but I developed a close frindship with a couple of women too. We had coffee for hours, met up for lunch and the best bars wee on the university campus - they were great in that people just went there to hang out, not to hook up or find a partner. Very non-threatening and very safe. Very much mutual respect gender wise. 

Aft I moved to the US, I went to UK (University of Ky) and I got a PhD in ChemE. It was extremely difficult to adapt to the cultural change. It was stressful, competitive, lonely. 
We were maybe 20% women in grad school and most of the women were 'imports' from other countries. It was just me and another woman from Europe, the rest of the women were from India or China and they tended to hang out with the people from their home countries. There was one US woman that I can recall; most of the US women were pretty suspicious and it was pretty much impossible to make friends. My closes friend was a man from California and I hung out with his group of friends a bit, but the US is very gender segregated compared to Sweden, so that was definitely a shock. 
I was always considered odd, since compared to the other students I was very outspoken, critical and blunt, but I was totally fine with that - I've never had issues with people not getting me.
I did get depressed enough that I was tempted to just give up and go back home, but throwing in the towel is not really in my nature so I powered through. It took about 2-3 years before I started to feel a bit more at home, but I think that I basically just developed my introvert side not to feel too lonely. I would not do it again, looking back. :-/


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Wellsy said:


> @_Swede_
> 
> With out getting to personal beyond comfort, how has your skills from your career impacted your day to day lifestyle?
> What has transferred into helping you life outside of your work?
> ...


As @Impavidus stated, I don't really think that I learned to think in a way that was different from how I already functioned. Back when I started college, I thought that engineering just accidentally happened to me, but now I can't imagine a better fit. I took classes in 6 sigma at work and a lot of it felt unnecessary - especially the DOE part (design of experiments), because my brain works like that automatically - I don't have to learn it, it comes naturally to me.

That said, my education and my job have had major positive impact on my life. I am independent, I don't have to worry about certain aspects of my life (like economy, for example), I have been free to move across the world, and my self esteem exists solely thanks to my education. My career allowed me to develop, to be proud of something, to understand that I am capable and skilled. I learned to accept my weaknesses and also to see that I actually have strength and value too.
I've said before that I have a great self-esteem career wise, but privately I always question and second-guess myself. I was raised to see myself as worthless, clumsy, ugly, unlovable, unwanted, inconvenient. Those feelings probably never really go away, so if I had gone down the path in a field that I was not a natural in, life would likely have been very different for me. My education gives me a sense of pride and purpose, independence and I know that there is an area where I know I can make a difference, where I am respected and seen as a valuable contributor. I think that engineering literally saved my life, tbh. It is a significant part of my identity. 

Through engineering, I've also gotten the opportunity to impact the company culture in regards to gender equality, which has been great and rewarding as well. 
Before kids, I used to volunteer in various kids' programs too - I hope that engineering will have a positive impact on a few of their lives too. There are so many unhappy kids in the world and to them, success is the best revenge and the best path to freedom. They just need someone to treat them with respect and tell them that they have the capacity and that they shouldn't feel intimidated.


----------



## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

Playful Proxy said:


> Did you go to a STEM specialized college for it? If so, how was the experience? Were you the minority gender-wise?


I attended the Institute of Technology in my home province in Canada. Overall, the school population was probably about 60% male. However, the vast majority of the women were in the nursing or marketing programs. The STEM courses were typically 75-80% male. On day 1, my class had equal representation of men and women (the school happened to be doing a heavy recruitment drive for women in STEM fields that year). By the time I graduated though, my class was 90% male.

The atmosphere was very respectful throughout my entire time there. I had a great group of friends and was part of a fantastic informal study group. Apart from one other woman whom I became good friends with, I socialized entirely with the men. That was nothing new for me though - my friends have always been predominantly male. I was quite ostracized from the other women in the class. A couple of years after I had graduated, one of them confessed that they found me very intimidating and were scared to interact with me. They wouldn't (couldn't?) tell me why they had felt that way though.

It really does vary by location though. I've had the opportunity to work in my field on three different continents and my experience was very different in all of them. Canada was (and still is) by far the most gender-blind of the places I've worked. England was a close second and the US a distant third, with Australia bringing up the rear as the most sexist and gender segregated working environment I've experienced.

I still remember my fantastic job interview in Australia. "You realize this job requires you to use tools, right? This isn't an office position. It's a technical job." Well, no shit, Sherlock. That's why I applied for it.

But I digress...

TLDR; School was no drama. The gender issues reared their head once I was out in the workforce. Your mileage will vary based on where you are.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Impavidus said:


> TLDR; School was no drama. The gender issues reared their head once I was out in the workforce. Your mileage will vary based on where you are.


Could not agree more, which is why so many women in STEM get a serious shock once we join the work force. Reality is vastly different from the idealistic and equal (in more aspects the just gender related) environment at most universities.


----------



## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

Impavidus said:


> I attended the Institute of Technology in my home province in Canada. Overall, the school population was probably about 60% male. However, the vast majority of the women were in the nursing or marketing programs. The STEM courses were typically 75-80% male. On day 1, my class had equal representation of men and women (the school happened to be doing a heavy recruitment drive for women in STEM fields that year). By the time I graduated though, my class was 90% male.
> 
> The atmosphere was very respectful throughout my entire time there. I had a great group of friends and was part of a fantastic informal study group. Apart from one other woman whom I became good friends with, I socialized entirely with the men. That was nothing new for me though - my friends have always been predominantly male. I was quite ostracized from the other women in the class. A couple of years after I had graduated, one of them confessed that they found me very intimidating and were scared to interact with me. They wouldn't (couldn't?) tell me why they had felt that way though.
> 
> ...


That's kinda what I'm worried about. I'll be going into a STEM school soon for Computer Science...yeah...female population I hear is preeetty low comparatively speaking. I'm a little worried I"ll either be singled out or just lonely. I also share the personality traits a lot of women in my area arn't particularly fond of. Outspoken, argumentative (Yaay, general ENTP shenanigans), confident (well...sometimes), so I don't want to put others off, but I also need to be me.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen (Oct 29, 2013)

Just sort of wanting a clarification here...



Swede said:


> There was one US woman that I can recall; most of the US women were pretty suspicious and it was pretty much impossible to make friends.


When you say "suspicious", you mean...?


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Existential Justice Warrior said:


> When you say "suspicious", you mean...?


It's hard to explain; not embracing, I'd say. You pick up on the fact that you get certain looks, comments and reactions. It's done in a covert enough way that you can't really call anyone or any specific action out. You pick up on the fact that you are not accepted into the group. You are seen as different and it's definitely not a good thing. I've learned afterwards that some people of both genders were intimidated, but I also think that some didn't take me seriously and just saw me as a bit of a joke - amusing accent and all, you know. 
I don't think that it's an uncommon reaction towards immigrants in any country, tbh - either people assume that you are superior or they assume that you are inferior based on the fact that you background is different. And a few makes the effort to get to know you as a person and base their judgement on that.

But it wasn't only in college. My now MIL and SIL were also pretty suspicious. My SIL was actually extremely rude to me for years before she finally started acting somewhat politely, but I wouldn't trust her for 2 seconds based on her past behavior. In their cases, I'd say that intimidation was definitely the issue. On the other hand, my FIL was pretty impressed and thrilled when we met, just as his dad and my MIL's mom have always come across as very welcoming. 
I think most people can pick up on subtleties like that, or maybe it's Ni?

I have heard others speculate that some of this type of stereotypically 'catty' US culture is based on the theory that women focus on competing for the men, rather than focusing on becoming independent individuals. I think that in part it holds some truth, but it's greatly simplified. People often don't like different or getting their system/values challenged.
My US husband often mentioned that many US women go to college just to find a husband. The women I hang out with didn't obviously (since all the women I socialize with work full time), but both my MIL and my SIL went to college and both of them knew that the end-goal was always to be a stay-at-home mom/wife. My MIL even told me that "You really shouldn't even have kids if you are not going to stay at home with them." The cultures we align with are pretty different.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Playful Proxy said:


> That's kinda what I'm worried about. I'll be going into a STEM school soon for Computer Science...yeah...female population I hear is preeetty low comparatively speaking. I'm a little worried I"ll either be singled out or just lonely. I also share the personality traits a lot of women in my area arn't particularly fond of. Outspoken, argumentative (Yaay, general ENTP shenanigans), confident (well...sometimes), so I don't want to put others off, but I also need to be me.


Always be you. In the long run, that is what you have to do! Don't compromise yourself away, do what you want to do, and believe in yourself. It always works out in the end and sometimes the hard times makes us appreciate our goals even more.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Wellsy said:


> @_Swede_
> 
> With out getting to personal beyond comfort, how has your skills from your career impacted your day to day lifestyle?
> What has transferred into helping you life outside of your work?
> ...


Wow, I apologize for letting this thread die and sorry about not responding to your questions @_Wellsy_.

Edited... woups, I did answer... Sorry.


----------



## S33K3RZ (Oct 18, 2014)

piscesfish said:


> How are feelers (particularly Fe-Ti) generally received in STEM fields? Have you seen them be able to succeed on the level that thinkers do, or is that the rare exception? Do they often need to "play catchup" regarding the heavy rationality involved, or are their separate strengths appreciated, despite being in a science field? (This isn't about women per se.)
> 
> You mentioned this a little in one of the earlier posts, and if you could elaborate on it, that would be great


Everyone except for a very few (perhaps 2-3) in the IT industry I have worked with for the past 20+ years has been a thinker that has succeeded around me. This is not to say feelers can't succeed, but they don't really line up in a way that puts them at a disadvantage. Mostly I would speculate that personality type has an effect on communication style and method of addressing challenges.


----------



## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Q1: Is your opinion representative of every woman in the STEM field?


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

WT_Neptune said:


> Q1: Is your opinion representative of every woman in the STEM field?


No, of course not. 
Opinions are formed as a function of how we experience/perceive things, which is intimately connected to how we are raised to view society (which in turn is a function of culture) and ourselves, our base personality, our background, etc. 
Experiences are also greatly dependent on the micro culture that you end up being a part of, be it university or work place.

However, I can say that many of my experiences align very well with what has been documented in several research reports. 
Many of my experiences also align very well with what my female US colleagues (and the other poster in this thread, @_Impavidus_, who also has multicultural experience) have experienced, for example that the US STEM culture is lagging behind when it comes to work place gender equality.
When talking to the only other Swedish woman I know working with a male dominated US team (in the business/sales branch of the company I work for), our impressions have been very similar.
Based on this, I would say that my experiences/opinions are not unique and that they align fairly well with general trends and patterns, both from a scientific and personal standpoint.


As a matter of fact, for many years I questioned myself and my perceptions because I am an idealist and feminist. I didn't want to believe that gender has an impact on a field that should be based on pure logic (INTJ combined with enneagram 9 are often stubborn idealists), because gender bias is not logical. Once I started reading research reports and communicating with other STEM women it was in a way a relief to finally accept that I was not overly sensitive or 'crazy'. (I have (had) general issues when it comes to completely trusting my Ni, in that I always need to justify it to myself by using Te.)


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

S33K3RZ said:


> Everyone except for a very few (perhaps 2-3) in the IT industry I have worked with for the past 20+ years has been a thinker that has succeeded around me. This is not to say feelers can't succeed, but they don't really line up in a way that puts them at a disadvantage. Mostly I would speculate that personality type has an effect on communication style and method of addressing challenges.


I also think that it can translate into feeling as an outsider which often can have a negative impact on our professional experience. If you don't feel like a part of the team, it becomes more challenging to be excited about work. 

The same goes for extroverts; the vast majority of people I work with are introverts. I don't doubt that extroverts can excel and be very successful, but I think that they would be bored to death working in my area, tbh. It seems that most extroverts I know have moved from R&D into sales and customer support, where competent technical people are needed as well as great communication skills and the desire to interact with people the majority of the time.

I'd say that where I work, we have very competent technical leaders. The problem is that a technical leader is not necessarily a competent or fitting people manager. As a matter of fact, I think that it often can be the opposite. I am wondering whether Feelers would have a greater capacity for being good people managers? I honestly have no clue.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen (Oct 29, 2013)

Swede said:


> Could not agree more, which is why so many women in STEM get a serious shock once we join the work force. Reality is vastly different from the idealistic and equal (in more aspects the just gender related) environment at most universities.



See, this is intriguing to me. I have to say as someone who's only experience is with schools and universities that I've never noticed ay sort of discrimination in attitude (though some of those studies you showed me in the other thread suggest there is one, actually). If anything I'm probably the biggest carrier of discriminatory attitudes there :tongue:. 

So how do you think the change happens? Is it something cultivated by the older generations of workforce officials?


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Autvoyeur said:


> See, this is intriguing to me. I have to say as someone who's only experience is with schools and universities that I've never noticed ay sort of discrimination in attitude (though some of those studies you showed me in the other thread suggest there is one, actually). If anything I'm probably the biggest carrier of discriminatory attitudes there :tongue:.
> 
> So how do you think the change happens? Is it something cultivated by the older generations of workforce officials?


Yes, to keep the answer very short, it goes back to what can be referred to as company culture. 

Culture change is incredibly difficult (this is applicable to any majority or less powerful segment of society):

a) The first step is to get the general population to accept that there actually is an issue. 
This is hard in that the majority or the people with power does not generally (want to) see that there are issues. It is human behavior; we tend to notice first and foremost what affects us directly. In other words, people can be informed, but that doesn't mean that they agree, see why it's important, care enough to change, etc.
For example, a whistle-blower is generally met with a lot of skepticism; as we discussed earlier, the emotional/victim card is often played (which frankly is nothing less than a form of bullying), which is why it is important to not only talk about personal experience*, but also to show that the study, stats, and data actually exists. And no matter how carefully carried out these studies are, there will always be people who simply does not want to see - you will never get 100% of people to admit there is an issue. It is generally very risky to be the whistle blower, so many individuals prioritize safety before change.
This is why it is also important to have access to a so called Change Agent, who is generally a person who is a part of the majority, well respected and well liked, who can advocate in favor for the group that is discriminated against. The change agent is seen as a 'neutral party', someone who can be trusted, since s/he is not directly involved. Change without a change agent is almost impossible.

b) The second step is the actual change.
This is also a challenge in that people generally fear change - change is scary. This is also a very common human reaction, but is often justified with "why change something that has always worked?" or "what is in it for me?" for example.
In addition, a culture change generally takes several generations to really become an integrated part of society. Part of this is what you talk about in your post above; the lack of role models in combination with conservatism.

c) Counter-reaction
Once a culture change has been achieved, it is not uncommon that there is a counter reaction. This type of effect can be seen throughout history and it pretty fascinating. One pretty illustrative example is the counter-reaction to feminism, for example. It was predictable and natural, but it doesn't necessarily make it right.



*More often than not, it is actually advisable to stay away from sharing personal experiences all together when discussing these types of issues in a professional setting. 
It gives the counter-party, for lack of a better word, an out in that they can shrug off the shared material as subjective and it can also put them on the defensive in that they take the information as a personal attack and it can lead to retribution.
It also gives the counter-party a power edge in that the whistle-blower is sharing something personal that has had a negative impact on their well-being, which can be turned against them.


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen (Oct 29, 2013)

Swede said:


> Yes, to keep the answer very short, it goes back to what can be referred to as company culture.


So say I wanted to hear the longer answer, what would it be? :tongue: I want to get an understanding of how company culture might work, as mine is not complete.



> Culture change is incredibly difficult (this is applicable to any majority or less powerful segment of society):
> 
> a) The first step is to get the general population to accept that there actually is an issue.
> This is hard in that the majority or the people with power does not generally (want to) see that there are issues. It is human behavior; we tend to notice first and foremost what affects us directly. In other words, people can be informed, but that doesn't mean that they agree, see why it's important, care enough to change, etc.
> ...


Well as far as the second step goes, I think there's also an internal thought track going on to the tune of "What will I lose?" from the change. I mean, for me personally it was feminism's attacks on the media that really turned me off to it. I mean, to an extent that ties into "what's in it for me", anyway, but....

Yeah. I don't disagree with any of this really. I'm not sure how relevant it is (I mean, it would be somewhat because it discusses how the aforementioned conservative older generations might grow into opponents of something like feminism rather than simply ignoring it, but...). 

Actually, I do question the reasoning of "fear of change" as being a motivating factor, come to think of it. I feel like "fear of being controlled" applies more to the feminist opposition. Fear of change is there for immigration type issues and racism, more.

Realized fear of control could be classified as fear of self-change, so never mind. Maybe.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Autvoyeur said:


> So say I wanted to hear the longer answer, what would it be? :tongue: I want to get an understanding of how company culture might work, as mine is not complete.


Well, I still own @MNiS that answer.... I started typing up a word doc that is 1.5 pages long with just bullets.... One day I'll get there. Basically, it's combining several research studies with a few personal observations.



> Well as far as the second step goes, I think there's also an internal thought track going on to the tune of "What will I lose?" from the change. I mean, for me personally it was feminism's attacks on the media that really turned me off to it. I mean, to an extent that ties into "what's in it for me", anyway, but....


Yes, it is a tricky balance. I am aware that by calling myself a feminist (especially here in the US), I automatically turn a lot of people off in regards to actually listening to what I say. Feminism is a trigger word for many.
There are people who call themselves feminists that I can identify with and there are people who I personally believe have misunderstood the entire ideology. It's like any other ideology, be it political or religious; there is a huge spectra of various opinions and reasoning behind those opinions - everyone within the ideology don't agree with each other and it's generally the more self-serving, militant or extreme groups that are noticeable (which often is a disservice to the ideology itself).
Often it is a question of how a message is delivered - aggressive is often not the most efficient way (which is why I believe that stats/facts, an open and honest discussion and give-&-take is really important).

To me, feminism is about the right for an individual to be who he or she is meant to be/want to be/need to be (with the caveat that no person has the right to harm another person), not who he or she is told by society (or other people) they ought to be. 
I believe that patriarchy is as damaging to men as it is to women - which is why I refer to myself as a feminist rather than an egalitarian. IMO, as a feminist, if I talk the talk, I also need to walk the walk; that is, I need to view men based on their individuality and not based on their gender. I need to be loyal and fair to women *as well as* men - we are all human beings. I don't believe that women are better than men or that men better than woman.*
I am not always doing great (as I mentioned in the other thread), but I am aware and I try to avoid falling into the trap of simplifying people too much or by automatically dividing people into categories (race, gender, age, etc). I try to keep myself (and others) accountable. To me, feminism is not about man-hate, it is about the right to be free from gender stereotypes and gender bias, for all people. Do I believe that there are man-haters that call themselves feminists? Yes, absolutely, but I don't view them as feminists.

As a side note, I think that it is important not to forget that there are men and women in the world who are a perfect fit with gender stereotypes and that is all right too. If it fits them, I have no issue. But I do have an aunt-in-law who also views herself as a feminist who basically thinks that it's great that I have a PhD in engineering "just to show the men" while she sees me as a traitor because one of my hobbies is embroidery - it is traditionally viewed as a very feminine hobby, so it is automatically shameful for a 'true feminist'. The thing is, I became an engineer for me and I enjoy embroidery for me, it's as simple as that. I don't feel the need to apologize for who I am or to change who I am as a person to fit into a stereotype of a feminist; that goes against my entire ideology.

*I would also like to point out that many feminists are actually well aware of the problems that men meet in society; the pressure to internalize emotions and how that have catastrophic results on many men's lives. How it's seemingly all right to ridicule 'weak' men (comparable to how 'ugly' women are often ridiculed). Another example is the circumcision debate; if I am pro-choice because a woman's body belongs to her and only to her, why would I feel that I have the right to cut off a baby's foreskin? Especially when the decision to circumcise a baby is solely based on aesthetics; that is double-standard IMO.


----------



## marbleous (Feb 21, 2014)

Hello!! First off, fantastic thread and really inspiring stuff on here! From both question askers and question answerers. Good to see so many enthusiastic people in STEM.

I'm currently studying undergraduate electrical engineering and wondering about gender roles. I feel very similar to and accepted by my male peers which is good. The thing is I feel like an outcast among women. I think Swede touched on this in another post. Not that anyone has been rude or impolite, but I do recognize that I'm very different than most girls. I revere science and math, I like hypothesizing, and I am pretty serious. I don't take a lot of care for beauty, I don't try to get male attention, and I'm not that charismatic. For men being nerdy is more common and acceptable, but for women being nerdy is kind of unusual. I definitely view my nerdiness as my strength, but I am aware that it may make things harder for me in the future socially. Sometimes I feel pressure to be more "girly."

Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with this? How do you find strength to continue pursuing the route less taken? Do you have any female role models?

Thanks!


----------



## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

Any advice you would give for future elementary teachers to inspire girls (and boys) into your career path? Why did you enter this career? How did you know it was for you? Did the Swedish chef freak you out when you realized his hands are human?


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

marbleous said:


> Hello!! First off, fantastic thread and really inspiring stuff on here! From both question askers and question answerers. Good to see so many enthusiastic people in STEM.
> 
> I'm currently studying undergraduate electrical engineering and wondering about gender roles. I feel very similar to and accepted by my male peers which is good. The thing is I feel like an outcast among women. I think Swede touched on this in another post. Not that anyone has been rude or impolite, but I do recognize that I'm very different than most girls. I revere science and math, I like hypothesizing, and I am pretty serious. I don't take a lot of care for beauty, I don't try to get male attention, and I'm not that charismatic. For men being nerdy is more common and acceptable, but for women being nerdy is kind of unusual. I definitely view my nerdiness as my strength, but I am aware that it may make things harder for me in the future socially. Sometimes I feel pressure to be more "girly."
> 
> ...


First off, thanks! I am glad that you like the thread. 

*1) Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with this?*
This is a very interesting question and pretty difficult to answer. I get the impression that you are happy, secure and content with who you are and you even say that what other people (especially women) might perceive as something undesirable is something that you actually see as your strength. So the question is, do you feel lonely? Do you wish that you had more girlfriends or do you feel that it's more something that you ought to have? Are you concerned with not 'fitting in' with other women?

As I said in another post, I believe that it is important to be true to who you are. Since you seem happy with who you are, I would advise you not to worry too much about fitting in. As you are going into STEM, you will meet plenty of women who are serious, passionate about science and who are nerdy. But keep in mind that, just as you feel that they might judge you, you might be judging them; it is possible to look very feminine and still be a nerd or serious or passionate about science. For example, your description of yourself fits pretty well with who I am (and with many other women in STEM), but I think that I do look very feminine (clothes, hair, make-up, etc). I am not at all saying that you should change, I am saying that there might be a chance for mutual miscommunication/misunderstanding if people look to much on the outside and get too discouraged to look at the inside, if that makes sense?
I would also say that the (negative) stereotypically 'girly' woman (giggly, admiring male perceived authority w/o basis, flirtatious, treating women and men differently based on gender, etc) does not fit well into the area where I work, because she is not taken seriously (and can frankly do other women a disservice).

Also, I can't help but think that maybe you sell yourself a bit too short? You say that you are not that charismatic, but in all honesty, real charismatic people who wow everyone in the room are pretty sparse. Charisma is also pretty relative; what attracts one individual doesn't necessarily attract another. I think that for many of us in STEM, charisma can actually be a turn-off, in that we are generally more impressed with the internal stuff than the external stuff. Charisma is great for a person in sales, for a person in STEM it is not necessary in the same way IMO. Do you perhaps down-play yourself a bit because it is safer?

It is also not necessarily a bad thing to come across as 'less threatening' (which often is the same as 'less stereotypically feminine' when working with a male majority). I have noticed that a lot of the female executives are either homosexual or come across as homosexual or asexual. I can only think of two women who are at the higher levels who look and act in a stereotypically very feminine way. (I like and admire all of them, btw, but I do admit that I am more intimidated by the latter group.) That does not mean that I advocate for downplaying femininity or female sexuality, but my point is that what can be perceived as a disadvantage in a certain setting can be a strength in other settings.
(I recently stumbled across a reference to a scientific report that confirmed that there is a pattern connected to the success of women in male-dominated fields as a function of the women coming across as less threatening sexually, but I can't seem to find it right now.)

I also think that this is one of those things that get better with life. I am certain that you will find great female friends over time - maybe not in the university setting, but once you start working and people have started to really grow up. It is hard for introverts to find friends period, but the nice thing is that the friends we do find are generally for life.
One thing you can do is to look up if there is a local SWE (Society for Women Engineers) chapter or look into joining your university's SWE chapter. They often organize events together and it is a great way to find women with interests similar to yours. As you know, working together on a project is a great way to get to know people on a more personal level. You might even find mentors and role models through your SWE chapter - networking is an important factor of success, whether we as introverts want it to be or not.
Were I work, we do also have several diversity networking groups and one of them is a women's diversity network group. Here I get an opportunity to meet with women from other areas of the company, be it STEM, sales, customer support, HR, the executive team, etc. 
I am on the board of both SWE and women's diversity network group, even though I am a pretty antisocial person.

*2) How do you find strength to continue pursuing the route less taken? *
That's easy - it's my personality.  I am extremely stubborn and I hate giving up, both in my professional and my private life. BUT I have learned the hard way that there are instances in life where it is advisable to give up, for example when your health or sense of well-being is severely threatened. That (or preferably well before) is when you start looking for a new opportunity, as in a new boss, new team, new position, or new place of work.

*3) Do you have any female role models?*
Not in STEM really. I do have female (and male) colleagues that I respect and admire. I do have one specific friend who I will ask for more personal advice in regards to my career, but she just retired in December. 
I did have a female mentor from the executive team in the past and she was great - without her I wouldn't have been able to get out of the role I was stuck in for 6 years (sometimes it sucks to be good at something). My current mentor is a male STEM and I have recently been offered mentorship from a male executive, but I think that might have fallen through.
I guess most of my female role models are feminists rather than STEM women, Sheryl Sandberg has a lot of good and solid observations and advice that she presents in a way that is easy to understand and from an angle of empowerment.


----------



## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

bigstupidgrin said:


> Any advice you would give for future elementary teachers to inspire girls (and boys) into your career path?


If you are referring to yourself, congratulations on a great career choice! That is awesome and very much admirable IMO. 

I really like the way you state this question in that you do include boys as well as girls. The cultural change in regards to gender imbalance in STEM can only take place if _both_ boys and girls understand that STEM is not only for men. Personally, I think it's one of the biggest mistakes SWE (Society for Women Engineers) does; they focus on only impacting and inspiring girls only.

Some simple thing that can be done:
- Invite STEM people to come and talk about their jobs. Make sure that you have women STEM representatives or invite a team that is mixed gender to demonstrate how important team work is. Prep the class by coming up with questions together. Try to make sure that you invite positive role models that focus on the positive aspects (at least that's what I would do on an elementary school level)
- Take the class on field trips to STEM companies - ask for tours that show 'cooler' aspects and a wide variety of different areas
- Discuss gender bias - for example that boys and girls are equally good in STEM subjects (fantastic meta-study and report here)
- Discuss why education is important and why it is important for both men and women to be economically independent
- Talk about the many possibilities STEM offers and that a lot of the things we use everyday had STEM people involved from the very beginning (invention & R&D) to the end (manufacturing & packaging); for example food industry or medical industry.
- Be aware that one negative impact on girls' performance is a general lack/overly critical view of themselves and their abilities (so lack of self esteem), fear of failing, and difficulty performing under stressful or competitive circumstances (ties back to self esteem issues) - try to help building up that lack of self-esteem if noticed

Hope this makes sense? Does this align with things that you have discussed at university?

*Why did you enter this career? *
I apologize for being lazy (or efficient *wink*), but I'll refer you back to #19 for this one.

*How did you know it was for you? *
I honestly didn't, but I took a chance and it turned out pretty well. I guess that about 2 years into my education I started to see that the fit was pretty good, that I liked the people around me, and that the classes were pretty interesting.

*Did the Swedish chef freak you out when you realized his hands are human?*
Yes, but it probably freaked me out more when I was old enough to understand that he supposedly speaks Swedish... ;-)


----------



## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

I had forgotten about this thread. It's nice to see so much interest in the topic!



marbleous said:


> Hello!! First off, fantastic thread and really inspiring stuff on here! From both question askers and question answerers. Good to see so many enthusiastic people in STEM.
> 
> I'm currently studying undergraduate electrical engineering and wondering about gender roles. I feel very similar to and accepted by my male peers which is good. The thing is I feel like an outcast among women. I think Swede touched on this in another post. Not that anyone has been rude or impolite, but I do recognize that I'm very different than most girls. I revere science and math, I like hypothesizing, and I am pretty serious. I don't take a lot of care for beauty, I don't try to get male attention, and I'm not that charismatic. For men being nerdy is more common and acceptable, but for women being nerdy is kind of unusual. I definitely view my nerdiness as my strength, but I am aware that it may make things harder for me in the future socially. Sometimes I feel pressure to be more "girly."
> 
> ...


Own your nerdiness  It's easier said than done, but the best thing you can do is really try to disconnect from what others are doing. Be who you are, and, more importantly, be PROUD of who you are. Having confidence in yourself is more attractive than fitting in to some pre-defined type or role.

As with @_Swede_ there wasn't really any special strength required. For one thing, it's in my nature to be contrary  Mostly though, I've always been blind to gender issues. I never considered gender at all until I entered the workplace and people started pointing it out to me. I found the field interesting and thought it had good job prospects, so I ran with it. It never occurred to me that there could be any gender-related stigma associated with it.

Role models aren't really my style. I see specific things that I like in others and try to emulate that particular quality/characteristic/result. I don't have any one whole person whom I would consider a role model though. I've always been gender-blind in this respect as well. I don't care who the person is, so long as they have some quality that I admire.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Very relevant, and insightful. Wish I saw this a couple of years ago. 

It's quite unfortunate that there is still so much blatant denial of discrimination/differences in treatment (overt or covert) of women in STEM, from those lacking the means to experience it firsthand. 

Bookmarked so I can actually read everything. :tongue:


----------



## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

bigstupidgrin said:


> Any advice you would give for future elementary teachers to inspire girls (and boys) into your career path? Why did you enter this career? How did you know it was for you? Did the Swedish chef freak you out when you realized his hands are human?


How to inspire kids? Talk about it. I know when I was in school "engineering" was really a very nebulous idea. They build stuff, they design things, but what does that actually mean? What does the every day job look like? Once I had a clearer idea of that, it became a much more attractive option to me.

A lot of STEM companies do outreach or have volunteer programs. Talk to some in your community and see if they'd be willing to come in and talk to the class about what they do.

Whenever you talk about professions that tend to be gendered, make a point of saying that anyone can do anything and that they're not limited by their anatomy.

I never made a conscious choice to go into an engineering field. I really fell into it. I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, but I knew I had to do something. My mother tossed me a program calendar for the Institute of Technology in my area and told me to pick something. I shortlisted the most interesting programs based on the 30-word blurb in the calendar, then researched the job prospects and pay for each. I came up with two options and applied to both. The one I was accepted into first is the one I went with.

I didn't really know it was for me until I started it. The program I took had an exceptionally high attrition rate (about 60%). When everyone else started dropping out and I still found it interesting and relatively easy, I figured I was on the right track. I fell in love with the job after about 6-7 years once I really started to see where I could go with it.


----------



## zpsych (Jan 28, 2015)

Mmnn..


----------



## zpsych (Jan 28, 2015)

Mmnn..


----------



## marbleous (Feb 21, 2014)

@Swede, Sorry for the late reply! I appreciate the amount of thought and compassion that you put into your reply. It's very comforting that you handled it gently since the question is kind of personal!



Swede said:


> So the question is, do you feel lonely? Do you wish that you had more girlfriends or do you feel that it's more something that you ought to have? Are you concerned with not 'fitting in' with other women?


You hit the nail on the head. I believe the problem stemmed from a momentary feeling of sadness which was projected onto STEM topics. XD Sometimes I feel those things intensely, but they are definitely personally-caused and I don't think they are because of STEM!



Swede said:


> As I said in another post, I believe that it is important to be true to who you are. Since you seem happy with who you are, I would advise you not to worry too much about fitting in. As you are going into STEM, you will meet plenty of women who are serious, passionate about science and who are nerdy. But keep in mind that, just as you feel that they might judge you, you might be judging them; it is possible to look very feminine and still be a nerd or serious or passionate about science. For example, your description of yourself fits pretty well with who I am (and with many other women in STEM), but I think that I do look very feminine (clothes, hair, make-up, etc). I am not at all saying that you should change, I am saying that there might be a chance for mutual miscommunication/misunderstanding if people look to much on the outside and get too discouraged to look at the inside, if that makes sense?


That makes sense. I sometimes hear comments from typically girly students about how they hope to get the "normal" people and not the "weird" people in their group projects, and the "weird" people are usually my friends. When the going gets rough I sometimes associate all typically girly women with this mindset, but that's definitely not true! You're right, there is definitely aspects of girliness that are very enjoyable like dressing nicely and wearing makeup! A balance of girliness and seriousness is best, as usual. Also, your anecdotes are great. XD



Swede said:


> Also, I can't help but think that maybe you sell yourself a bit too short? You say that you are not that charismatic, but in all honesty, real charismatic people who wow everyone in the room are pretty sparse. Charisma is also pretty relative; what attracts one individual doesn't necessarily attract another. I think that for many of us in STEM, charisma can actually be a turn-off, in that we are generally more impressed with the internal stuff than the external stuff. Charisma is great for a person in sales, for a person in STEM it is not necessary in the same way IMO. Do you perhaps down-play yourself a bit because it is safer?


That's so true! I do tend to downplay charisma and emotions to stay focused on hard subjects. The less distractions the better! Maybe it's time to take a little break from the academics and let loose... 



Swede said:


> It is also not necessarily a bad thing to come across as 'less threatening' (which often is the same as 'less stereotypically feminine' when working with a male majority). I have noticed that a lot of the female executives are either homosexual or come across as homosexual or asexual. I can only think of two women who are at the higher levels who look and act in a stereotypically very feminine way. (I like and admire all of them, btw, but I do admit that I am more intimidated by the latter group.) That does not mean that I advocate for downplaying femininity or female sexuality, but my point is that what can be perceived as a disadvantage in a certain setting can be a strength in other settings.
> (I recently stumbled across a reference to a scientific report that confirmed that there is a pattern connected to the success of women in male-dominated fields as a function of the women coming across as less threatening sexually, but I can't seem to find it right now.)


I hope this doesn't offend anyone: I laughed when you said female execs come across as homosexual/asexual. I think it's funny because it's kind of a sensitive topic but true! The correlation of success and being less threatening sexually makes a lot of sense. Sexuality is very powerful and can influence people's decisions more than a company's core values. It may become difficult to see if decisions were made based on logical thoughts or on sexual influence. Sexuality is a very mysterious power!



Swede said:


> I also think that this is one of those things that get better with life. I am certain that you will find great female friends over time - maybe not in the university setting, but once you start working and people have started to really grow up. It is hard for introverts to find friends period, but the nice thing is that the friends we do find are generally for life.
> One thing you can do is to look up if there is a local SWE (Society for Women Engineers) chapter or look into joining your university's SWE chapter. They often organize events together and it is a great way to find women with interests similar to yours. As you know, working together on a project is a great way to get to know people on a more personal level. You might even find mentors and role models through your SWE chapter - networking is an important factor of success, whether we as introverts want it to be or not.
> Were I work, we do also have several diversity networking groups and one of them is a women's diversity network group. Here I get an opportunity to meet with women from other areas of the company, be it STEM, sales, customer support, HR, the executive team, etc.
> I am on the board of both SWE and women's diversity network group, even though I am a pretty antisocial person.


Good on you to overcome antisocial-ness and be on the board of a networking group! I have joined my department's networking group and it has definitely increased the camaraderie around me. I will look to getting more involved with the group, good advice.



Swede said:


> That's easy - it's my personality.  I am extremely stubborn and I hate giving up, both in my professional and my private life. BUT I have learned the hard way that there are instances in life where it is advisable to give up, for example when your health or sense of well-being is severely threatened. That (or preferably well before) is when you start looking for a new opportunity, as in a new boss, new team, new position, or new place of work.


Oh good, an easy question! That seems to be a commonality, stubbornness! It's like extreme perseverance that's led to exceptional results. Reminds me of Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. They were known to believe in ideas that everyone else had given up hope on. They were considered extremely stubborn too. But that enabled them to achieve what they did. It makes sense though that if perseverance has led to so much success, it may be easy to overlook situations where change is the healthier choice.



Swede said:


> Not in STEM really. I do have female (and male) colleagues that I respect and admire. I do have one specific friend who I will ask for more personal advice in regards to my career, but she just retired in December.
> I did have a female mentor from the executive team in the past and she was great - without her I wouldn't have been able to get out of the role I was stuck in for 6 years (sometimes it sucks to be good at something). My current mentor is a male STEM and I have recently been offered mentorship from a male executive, but I think that might have fallen through.
> I guess most of my female role models are feminists rather than STEM women, Sheryl Sandberg has a lot of good and solid observations and advice that she presents in a way that is easy to understand and from an angle of empowerment.


Thanks for the suggestions. I like your anecdotes, insightful and a bit unexpected. Sheryl Sandberg is a great public speaker!


----------



## marbleous (Feb 21, 2014)

Impavidus said:


> I had forgotten about this thread. It's nice to see so much interest in the topic!


It is, isnt' it. (It's also a nice little break from personality talk)



Impavidus said:


> Own your nerdiness  It's easier said than done, but the best thing you can do is really try to disconnect from what others are doing. Be who you are, and, more importantly, be PROUD of who you are. Having confidence in yourself is more attractive than fitting in to some pre-defined type or role.


I like this advice! It seems like common sense, but sometimes we need to be reminded. After all, nerdiness is pretty cool.



Impavidus said:


> As with Swede there wasn't really any special strength required. For one thing, it's in my nature to be contrary  Mostly though, I've always been blind to gender issues. I never considered gender at all until I entered the workplace and people started pointing it out to me. I found the field interesting and thought it had good job prospects, so I ran with it. It never occurred to me that there could be any gender-related stigma associated with it.


Lol, "it's my nature to be contrary," she said with glee. XD It definitely makes one proud to go against the grain doing what they love. In a sense, artists may be able to relate because they are also going against the grain by choosing a career that is known for being not as financially secure, but still working hard at it.

I've had a similar experience to you with gender issues. I have never noticed gender issues (though they may have been there) until college. In college where I am now, the first time I noticed it was when I spied a guy texting a girl as if she was a sexual pleasure object and calling her disrespectful names. My friend also told me he got tired of hanging out with a group of guys because all they would talk about their sexual experiences with girls. Surprisingly and fortunately though, I haven't experienced any gender discrimination within my department. I think workplace gender-related stigma occurs because the work force still has the old mindset about gender roles.



Impavidus said:


> Role models aren't really my style. I see specific things that I like in others and try to emulate that particular quality/characteristic/result. I don't have any one whole person whom I would consider a role model though. I've always been gender-blind in this respect as well. I don't care who the person is, so long as they have some quality that I admire.


Yes, that's an objective way to go about it. Actually, I really admire my grandma who was a chief nurse. She had strong ideas and was very vocal about them. Very smart with a memory to boot; she still has all of her knowledge of medicine. Yet she was also very compassionate so people trusted her. That's why I like these boards too. It's nice to see people who have done what you'd like to do, makes it easier to visualize where you want to be. XD


----------



## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

Do you have to have more "masculine" qualities in order to be able to excel or work in such a field? I mean do you sense you relate better with men than women your age, generally speaking? I once read through the replies of a male nurse who said he had more "feminine" qualities (he was more nurturing) and that's what allowed him to do very well as a nurse, and that the typical guy won't have those qualities.


----------

