# Possible for Fe types to hold "Fi" values but arive at it differently



## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

Sequestrum said:


> The reason I wanted to know about the new students reaction was because I wanted to attempt to understand their reason for not wanting to be with the other students. I really don't see how the new student not eating lunch with the other kids is going to negatively affect the entire classroom. Additionally, this student obviously spent some time coming to their conclusion, and attempted to hide in the process-- I'm guessing they already sensed the forcefulness of the situation based on that.
> 
> I think that pushing a situation like this is just going to create tension, which is going to have the opposite effect of what the teacher originally intended. I think that the teacher who scolded the new student was probably more upset about her efforts being wasted or about the defiance rather than being concerned with the harmony of the students. I think she probably needed a few moments to recollect herself and re-examine the situation to acknowledge that the real problem was in the strictness of the rules, not in the students behavior. I like her idea, but I think that participation needs to be more tentative rather that strictly enforced, and that the offer to be grouped should remain open, regardless of how many times they are declined.
> 
> So I suppose in conclusion, I saw her as just having a moment of explosion at the students expense, which is obviously not okay, but it does happen. We're only human after all. I would hope that she might be more accommodating to suggestions once she had time to cool down. That's just my take on that situation though..


I definitely saw the situation as creating tension, and I agree that the teacher seemed more upset than concerned about group harmony. I think a few of the other kids were giggling at the teacher questioning the student because he seemed confused and a little uncomfortable, so group harmony was badly impacted by what the teacher did. 

I need to clarify that the teacher didn't seem angry to that student. She seemed almost pained that the new student didn't go eat lunch with his classmates. She seemed upset in a wounded way, but she didn't explode at him. I thought it was overbearing, but it was more subtle way than a direct scolding. I thought it was strange that she seemed to be taking it so personally that the new student didn't want to eat with his classmates. I felt uncomfortable but still charitable towards her possibly good intentions until I tried to bring up several minutes later that the student could have wanted to sit by himself at lunch. It crossed into irritation more when she couldn't even consider that she was wrong about him. At that point, she just seemed to be saying, "I know what's right for everyone." I don't act perfectly, but I do try to listen to new pieces of evidence or ideas when someone offers them in a calm way. If I made a possible mistake, I would be willing to admit it.

I define being closed-minded as unwilling to listen to an idea that challenges your current viewpoint. Being closed-minded is a human thing more than a cognitive functions thing.

ETA: There could have been a good way to still try to get the kid to eat lunch with his classmates, but it would have probably involved addressing that situation in a more private way. She also could have tried to ask why he ate lunch by himself in a way that didn't try to lay some kind of guilt trip on him. The way that she tried to figure out and "fix" that situation was particularly clumsy.


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## Modal Soul (Jun 16, 2013)

itt @FearAndTrembling is high as balls


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Modal Soul said:


> itt @FearAndTrembling is high as balls


lol more like every thread XD


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Modal Soul said:


> itt @_FearAndTrembling_ is high as balls


lol. I talk about this stuff sober. I am high a lot of the time, but you really can't tell the difference. 

That is kind of how Jung thought though too. That is why I like him.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

I can't say that I try to deliberately make people feel bad unless I think they're being really huge jerks. In other cases when I've made people feel bad, it's a lot more accidental. It's not usually about "self gain" unless I'm finally standing up for myself against a person who's been a consistent jerk to me. Even in those cases, it's a deliberate decision that I no longer care what the person thinks of me at all. In any case, anything I could do that might make a person feel bad usually results in the person completely ignoring the substance of what I said, invoking some kind of defense mechanism to avoid feeling bad, and sometimes getting really angry at me.

I think it's good for people to donate to charity, but I don't think that people need to feel guilty to do it. If you do it too strongly, it could turn some people completely off charity. People who are susceptible to feeling guilty may give a little more than makes them feel comfortable. A more realistic goal would be to encourage people to give a small amount to charity and to give something to charity if they just want to get rid of it anyway. If someone doesn't donate to a charity, they may be avoiding donations due to tight finances or some different priorities for how they spend their money. I think that people who are charitable are more likely to influence other people positively through their example rather than any attempts to make people feel bad.

Generally speaking, I think I'm pretty bad at manipulating people to do anything. It's not really a goal I have to manipulate people, and I would much rather convince someone to do something in a way that allowed them to actually change their mind rather than feel manipulated by me. I definitely don't see the point in manipulating someone to do something that could be detrimental for them or potentially embarrassing.


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## PrincessK (May 6, 2014)

I would personally just be mad at that teacher guys, becuase I hate being told what to do. She needed to realize that people can make their own friends, if they want to.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

PrincessK said:


> I would personally just be mad at that teacher guys, becuase I hate being told what to do. She needed to realize that people can make their own friends, if they want to.


I really don't like that. Teachers who do that. Like make you introduce yourself to your classmates. Or go around the class and say something about yourself. I hate that. Most people probably dislike it, but I really dislike it. Fe can vary. My idea of Fe, is leaving people the hell alone. I try to make people's lives easier, by staying out of their way. Like even at a bar. I order simple drinks, and keep my mouth shut. I know the workers have things to do, and I try to make their jobs easier. They don't need me complicating things. 

I had a teacher who would intentionally call on shy kids in class. Like he wanted to cure them or something. He said that you can't get anywhere being shy. Which is somewhat true. Closed mouths don't get fed.


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## Modal Soul (Jun 16, 2013)

emberfly said:


> That's very Fe. Fi wouldn't want to make others feel bad unless they saw personal gain in it.
> 
> But you're wanting to make them feel bad so that they'll _help others_, right? That's not Fi.
> 
> ...


hahahaha this post is just oooooozing with truth

being blatantly manipulative has its benefits. it only ever seems to work on other Fe types, though...

but i used it with an INTJ friend of mine. we get along crazy well but sometimes he can be a piece of shit, and this makes me act like a piece of shit, and we get into heated one-sided scuffles as a result of all of this shit-acting. this one time, after a week of not talking, i messaged him and we talked and i asked him why he did +insert thing he did here+ and he replied saying he just could not understand what it was about +insert thing here+ that made me so angry. he eventually said something about not being able to deal with "that" anymore and so i asked him what he meant by "that" and he said... wait for it... "you"

and i knew he 'planned' this and wanted it to irk me/wanted me to snap at him. but i didn't. instead, i replied saying with a calm message. i don't remember what i said but it was sweet and meant to make him feel guilty for taking a dig at me. he got all sentimental (well, as sentimental as an INTJ can get) and then later said "i may be fucked and a terrible person and everything and it might very well be a bad idea to talk/interact with you but i still like you not that i expect to be friends or anything at all its just a fact that will always remain true." it was a lot of back-and-forth. 

i think this is an N-heavy convo (this is just a small excerpt). not passive-aggressive, no, not to me at least. since we are both well aware of what's happening. a lot of people mistake intuitives as being people who are always insightful and theoretical and profound (this misconception is perpetuated and maintained by intuitives) but that isn't the case. obviously, because it's impossible to always think like intuitives are made out to think (well, not think, but talk). i think being an intuitive is just a matter of being very implicit in speech. we readily see hidden meanings and implications and generally communicate through phrases and words that insinuate our intended meanings rather than directly state them. they - mostly applicable to intuitives who use Fe - can sense inflections in tone and changes in behaviour, all of which correspond with what they believe to be ulterior motives or hidden intentions/meanings. intuitives pick up on unspoken details. i don't know how to explain it. they just see/hear what isn't there, but _is_ there? *tl;dr *we don't outright say things as much as we insinuate them

anyway, what i was saying is that being blatantly manipulative has its upsides. i've been on the receiving end of both flavours of manipulation. in that moment, it sucks. no matter who is doing it. in retrospect, though, it's hilarious. especially when an INTJ does it... it is just so fucking discrete. days, months, years will pass before you can/will fully realise what _really_ went down in a conversation you had with an INTJ

fun fact, everyone. if an INTJ takes time out of their day to talk to you, it's either because they like you or because they like fucking with you. to determine which category you fall into, you need to be highly perceptive or another INTJ

but the truth of the matter is you're shit out of luck because there's a high chance they wouldn't risk fucking with you if you were highly perceptive and/or an INTJ

life is like a game of chess, children. i would elaborate on this but i won't because i'm lazy and you should already know what i mean

don't mind me. @_FearAndTrembling_ shared some of his dank weed with me


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Modal Soul said:


> hahahaha this post is just oooooozing with truth
> 
> being blatantly manipulative has its benefits. it only ever seems to work on other Fe types, though...
> 
> ...


You make some very good points. Blatant manipulation rarely works though. It can't get much traction, unless you got force or some other power disparity in your favor. It has to be more insidious. That is why I tend not to bother with it. It is too much damn work. Like playing. The best players use Fe. NFJ and STP types make the best players. Playing is a full time job. It is work. Too much work. I am actually high now. I was thinking they need to make a movie about a washed up player. Who was abused by the life, but couldn't throw it away. Like The Wrestler. lol


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## Modal Soul (Jun 16, 2013)

i find that INTJs are very easy to manipulative via physical appearances. i think it has something to do with that inferior Se of theirs. i'm telling you... that is their kryptonite. use your looks as a manipulation tactic and you will accomplish great things

also what the fuck you guys how did we stray so far away from the original topic


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Modal Soul said:


> i find that INTJs are very easy to manipulative via physical appearances. i think it has something to do with that inferior Se of theirs. i'm telling you... that is their kryptonite. use your looks as a manipulation tactic and you will accomplish great things
> 
> also what the fuck you guys how did we stray so far away from the original topic


Te and Fi is easier to manipulate. Because it is more "pure". You can't take it head on. It never goes for that. You need deception. James Randi, who is a magician and famous skeptic, made the great point, that the easiest people to fool, are those who think they cannot be fooled. Magicians have always been the biggest skeptics. Houdini went around and exposed these guys. Even Criss Angel is a vocal skeptic. Randi made the point that these con men fooled legit scientists, because scientists are not used to dealing with deceptive agents. It takes a con man, to catch a con man basically.


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## Modal Soul (Jun 16, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Te and Fi is easier to manipulate. Because it is more "pure". You can't take it head on. It never goes for that. You need deception. James Randi, who is a magician and famous skeptic, made the great point, that the easiest people to fool, are those who think they cannot be fooled. Magicians have always been the biggest skeptics. Houdini went around and exposed these guys. Even Criss Angel is a vocal skeptic. Randi made the point that these con men fooled legit scientists, because scientists are not used to dealing with deceptive agents. It takes a con man, to catch a con man basically.


brilliant. i am most on board with Te and Fi being more "pure" because it's something i have thought time and time again

do you reckon they're all Fe-Ti/Ti-Fe users then? magicians

ah, the age old quote... "to catch a criminal, you have to think like one"

actually, no. i don't think that's it. there's a quote similar to that in idea but completely different in its phrasing


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## PrincessK (May 6, 2014)

Can't understand teachers that want to embarrass people in the class. Call on the people raising their hand, simple as that. Don't call on the people that don't know it or aren't paying attention. Maybe if someone's obviously a good student, you can ask if they have anything they'd like to add, but not push it or make them feel like they have to constantly speak up more. 

& on the charity thing I was talking about giving $1-2 to Toy for Tots & other little things like that. Not giving $100 to build a school or something. I also wouldn't mention it to someone who couldn't afford it. I think giving should just be automatic, like opening a door for someone. Still don't know my type, though, guys, so I don't know what I use. People always say Fi when I say that I'm against child/animal abuse on those typing questionnaires.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Modal Soul said:


> brilliant. i am most on board with Te and Fi being more "pure" because it's something i have thought time and time again
> 
> do you reckon they're all Fe-Ti/Ti-Fe users then? magicians
> 
> ...


evil knows where evil sleeps or something. 

I made a thread about psychic mediums. What types they are. What functions are being used. I think they are probably using ti and fe. Ti, Ni, Fe, and Se are perfect for that kind of mysticism. I think Penn is listed as an ENTJ. He is a skeptic. I think you can definitely see more Te there. Penn puts out hard facts, and shows why they are wrong. Randi breaks down this thing like a science. He has almost created an industry to counter it, and constantly challenge it. He is listed as an ESTP, which makes sense to me. But he is like a samurai, in that he respects his opponent. Because he really wants to win. He is not going away until it does. Te and Fi can think just being right, is enough to prevail. Randi knows that isn't true. It is a constant struggle. Too much work. Like I said.


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## PrincessK (May 6, 2014)

Since you guys are talking about INTJs too, I'd like to add that a lot of my arguments seem to be with my INTJ & INFP friends.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I really don't like that. Teachers who do that. Like make you introduce yourself to your classmates. Or go around the class and say something about yourself. I hate that. Most people probably dislike it, but I really dislike it. Fe can vary. My idea of Fe, is leaving people the hell alone. I try to make people's lives easier, by staying out of their way. Like even at a bar. I order simple drinks, and keep my mouth shut. I know the workers have things to do, and I try to make their jobs easier. They don't need me complicating things.
> 
> I had a teacher who would intentionally call on shy kids in class. Like he wanted to cure them or something. He said that you can't get anywhere being shy. Which is somewhat true. Closed mouths don't get fed.


I think that a lot of the weird "introduce yourself" stuff on the first day is just because the teachers aren't really sure what to do on that day. They claim that the students aren't ready to learn that day, and a lot of them may not want to teach that day. When I was in school, I often wished that they would just start the class sooner. The "ice breaker" games just seemed goofy and awkward to me because the social interaction was clearly so phony and contrived. It was more tolerable than listening to someone drone on and on about everything in a class syllabus. I would feel so tired after a back to school day in high school because I had to listen to people talk about classroom policies for seven hours. :bored:

In general, I think it's good to go through life in a way that isn't bothersome to others. What you said about the bar reminded me of the Starbucks "secret menu." The problem isn't even people ordering weird drink combinations but in expecting baristas to know what some nickname for an unofficial drink means. See here for more information. It also doesn't make sense to me to order far off the menu with multiple "customizations." If you're that fussy about what you eat or drink, it would make more sense to prepare things for yourself or to research restaurants before you go somewhere to see if you like a regular menu item.


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## PrincessK (May 6, 2014)

On the psychic thing my INFJ friend claims to have some psychic like abilities. Him & my ESFP friend were also amazed last year when I was able to guess what color or number, between 1 & 10, someone was thinking. My ESFP friend was thinking 6 first then 7, the one time, & that's exactly what was going through my mind too. What do you guys think gives people this ability? I also won an online contest guessing a horoscope sign & then a number.


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## PrincessK (May 6, 2014)

Not too fond of the introduce yourself on the first day of school type thing, but I do agree that it's because they can't think of what else to do. I did like some of the games my drama teacher, a few years back, came up with to get to know each other. It was a small class, though, & we all constantly interacted with each other.


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## PrincessK (May 6, 2014)

Fe or Fi for me guys? Opinions?


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## Modal Soul (Jun 16, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> evil knows where evil sleeps or something.
> 
> I made a thread about psychic mediums. What types they are. What functions are being used. I think they are probably using ti and fe. Ti, Ni, Fe, and Se are perfect for that kind of mysticism. I think Penn is listed as an ENTJ. He is a skeptic. I think you can definitely see more Te there. Penn puts out hard facts, and shows why they are wrong. Randi breaks down this thing like a science. He has almost created an industry to counter it, and constantly challenge it. He is listed as an ESTP, which makes sense to me. But he is like a samurai, in that he respects his opponent. Because he really wants to win. He is not going away until it does. Te and Fi can think just being right, is enough to prevail. Randi knows that isn't true. It is a constant struggle. Too much work. Like I said.


nah, that's not it. it's less profound-sounding, but i like that one a lot. same idea

i'll check it out later if i don't forget. i'll probably read up some more on randi and penn later, too, because i'm not as well-versed in what they do/who they were but after reading this, i'd like to be. i like people who challenge the status quo. i also really like the samurai comparison. there's a 90% i will forget to do both of these things but it's the thought that counts, i think

i quickly skimmed your profile and came across this..

"About quadra cycles. That we are in a beta cycle, or becoming one. ESTP, ISTP, ENFJ, INFJ. I think that may be true. And that group is very tribal and hard to control."

i often get compared to fictional xSTPs even though, function _order_ wise, i'm obviously not an xSTP. i've always wondered why. would this explain why? us belonging to the same quadra cycle? i've seen fictional ESTPs and INFJs mistaken for one another a lot and it seems to baffle people how that can be, but not me. it makes perfect sense. there are a lot of similarities that people/type descriptions often overlook. i relate to them best. much more than i relate to xxFJs, who i'm expected to relate to a lot because of our Fe-Ti. nope. raaarely happens



PrincessK said:


> *Can't understand teachers that want to embarrass people in the class.* Call on the people raising their hand, simple as that. Don't call on the people that don't know it or aren't paying attention. Maybe if someone's obviously a good student, you can ask if they have anything they'd like to add, but not push it or make them feel like they have to constantly speak up more.


haha i fucking hate teachers like that. self-entitled pricks, for real. i had this one guy tried to humiliate me in front of the whole class because i made him feel like a total jackass in the hall once after he made a huge mistake in not replying to my friend's email concerning a late project of hers so, instead of admitting he was wrong, he gave her a zero. i was like alright, cool, i'll see you down in the principal's office later today because there's no way in hell i'm putting up with this childish buffoonery! he tried to give me a zero on my essay, too, because i wanted to hand it in past the due date, which i didn't complain about because that was fair on his part... weeell, i didn't care until he pulled that stunt in class. he tried to do the same thing to my friend which, again, she didn't care about until he started acting like a little baby

after talking to the principal, i got us both extensions on our essays AND she was able to hand in her project with no late penalty (which, to be fair, is what should have happened anyway). my friend, being an INFP, wasn't happy with her end of the year mark (going into the exam) so instead of just sitting down and writing her exam (and maybe increasing her mark in the process; she could have also talked to him afterwards asking for more 'proof' for why her mark was what it was), she stormed out of the exam room. that's Fi (dominant Fi, i think). emotional honesty. she still hates him to this day

i, on the other hand, just pretended to be okay with him/my mark for the sake of getting on his good side because that's what would benefit me most in the long run. see, i could _fake_ being okay with him. i already voiced what i really thought of him in the office... i didn't feel the need to hold a grudge against him afterwards because i knew i was in the right + i got a good mark. also... what i said in that office shook him up a lot, and seeing that gave me all the satisfaction i needed. i don't know why everyone thinks Fe is always about harmony. if you step on my toes, i'll step on yours twice as hard. i can be emotionally honest, too, and i am... a lot, but if it benefits me more in the long run/grand scheme of things to keep my emotions to myself, i will

i ended with an 87. she dropped the course. wanna know why we have such a good friendship? because i respect the hell out of her for not submitting to his bullshit, and she respects the hell out of me for being able to "manipulate" the situation like i did. both Fi and Fe have positives/negatives


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