# Enneagrams that are (almost) impossible



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm thinking IxTP enn. 2

ExFJ enn. 5

ExTJ enn. 4

IxFP enn. 8

IxxJ enn. 7


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Did someone say "shots fired"?

Test-ENTP 8 works. Test T being a measure of disagreeableness.

Ne-Ti-Fe may be less complicated than Ti-Ne-Si, but has little in the way of blunt forthrightness that characterizes an Eightish thinking style. Te and Se fit to a T.

Ni dominant Four does not make sense. Dominant Ni is a style that forgets its own impact and existence - not in a gut type repression of personal worth but out of simple absentmindedness. Style Four characterizes a persistently self-obsessed person for whom their own experience and overthinking said experience is paramount.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Brains said:


> Ni dominant Four does not make sense.


My INFJ 4w5 new friend is coming over later today 




> Dominant Ni is a style that forgets its own impact and existence


This is type 9. Not Ni.
Also, how can you justify Ni dominant 8 if it's about forgetting your own impact and existence? That's the *direct* opposite of the e-8 style, which superficially has strong overlap with Se.



> - not in a gut type repression of personal worth but out of simple absentmindedness.


Ni isn't "absent minded." Nor is it related to worth. It's more that the Ni dom is focused on cause and effect, visions, an elaborate world of internal stuff (just like any introverted cognitive type), the 'meaning behind' what *is* , the reason behind the Se force, the plan to direct that force toward something (to the point where they fail to utilize that force itself), etc.



> Style Four characterizes a persistently self-obsessed person for whom their own experience and overthinking said experience is paramount.


This is spot on. I am so relieved that you see this for what it is, and I always have been. People glorify 4 too much. In fact I'm going to save this description. :blushed:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I think any introverted type is possible for 4, and also perhaps ENFP or ENTP, though I might change my mind on that later. That's just what makes sense to me right now as I am expanding on my understanding of functions.

Introverted functions are ALL about building an internal map of the world, and 4 builds an internal map of self, feelings, thoughts, ideas, visions, beauty, home making or whatever. It's definitely plausible to have a Si 4, who has an elaborate fantasy of a perfect family or home and their role in it, or their own beautiful vision of how a house should be in their made-up world or their own special brand of a comfort zone and internal beauty; or a Ti 4, whose internal world is one of complex intricate ideas and figuring out their feelings through art and music, learning systems through which the heart or elaborate underworld of self is revealed. Fi and Ni don't need to be explained why it can be 4, I think.

ENFP and ENTP, I'm still thinking this through.

ESFJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ESFP, all seem off for 4. I don't know how those particular functions could apply to the focus on self as you mention.


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## Way Farer (Jun 2, 2017)

What a crock of total B. S.. Any MBTI type can be any Enneatype. This is just a thread to spread misinformation and ignorance. Correlations exist, sure, but no MBTI type is exempt from any Enneatype.


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## Way Farer (Jun 2, 2017)

Stevester said:


> I'm thinking IxTP enn. 2
> 
> ExFJ enn. 5
> 
> ...


ISFP Enn. 8 - Eminem


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Way Farer said:


> ISFP Enn. 8 - Eminem


Nahhhh, Eminem is a classic 6, 368 I think


* *

















Don't listen to rap so struggling to think of an 8 rapper, assume they're pretty common though

8ish song? not sure about Tech N9ne in general


* *


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## Gilly (Apr 22, 2012)

Brains said:


> Did someone say "shots fired"?
> 
> Test-ENTP 8 works. Test T being a measure of disagreeableness.
> 
> ...


Ni dom 4's are actually pretty common in my experience. They get all caught up in their other worldy impressions of how they'd like their world to be and are always a bit sad they aren't living in their perfect future imaginings. Never happy in the present because it isn't where they exist. (I know I'm making it sound like an INFP - but nothing is weirder and more disjointed seeming - and yet totally possible, like a type 4w3 INTJ or 4w5 INFJ). 

Types I actually have a hard time imagining are type;

8 INFP/ISFJ
1 ENFJ/ENTP
5 ESFP/ESTP
7 ISFJ/INTJ

Some types I would think would hold a horrible irony within the type - a type 3 INTP? While admirable in the mind, INTPs aren't exactly the best 'go getters', it's almost uncomfortable to watch.


* *







Don't get up in my grill because you *are* one of these types please. 


* *







Or do.





* *







opcorn:


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## lolalalah (Aug 1, 2015)

Stevester said:


> IxxJ enn. 7


My twin is xntj enneagram 7...


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Animal said:


> ESFJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ESFP, all seem off for 4. I don't know how those particular functions could apply to the focus on self as you mention.


Nope, my aunt is a definite ESFP 4w3.

Unrelated to your post, Animal:
I think the blockade on 7 and IxxJ is very silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the types. I'm very heavily w7'd, and have come across quite a few others who should consider 7. They usually just head straight to 5 though >_<


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Paradigm said:


> Nope, my aunt is a definite ESFP 4w3.
> 
> Unrelated to your post, Animal:
> I think the blockade on 7 and IxxJ is very silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the types. I'm very heavily w7'd, and have come across quite a few others who should consider 7. They usually just head straight to 5 though >_<


I believe you! You have described her to me before. Yeah, I'm still revising my ideas about which type combos are absolutely impossible, if any.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Animal said:


> I believe you! You have described her to me before. Yeah, I'm still revising my ideas about which type combos are absolutely impossible, if any.


I agree it's hard to imagine at first, and in the last few years she comes off as a CP6. But once you see the combo of ESFP and 4(w3 at least), it does fit pretty easily. It helps she's SO/SX, no pesky SP to confuse things.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

It's my understanding that any MBTI could be any Enneagram type. Enneagram generally comes from patterns which were used for coping with stress during childhood while MBTI is more a pattern of personality trait preferences which develop throughout adolescence and becomes static at age 25.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Been back and forth but I think none are impossible. Maybe difficult to imagine something manifesting or difficult to spot but...no. Different systems, different combinations are possible. I think some are _much more likely_ but I think as a rule every combination is theoretically possible, even if it is not ever going to manifest.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Animal said:


> This is type 9. Not Ni.
> Also, how can you justify Ni dominant 8 if it's about forgetting your own impact and existence? That's the *direct* opposite of the e-8 style, which superficially has strong overlap with Se.
> 
> Ni isn't "absent minded."


I explicitly said that the two are different. Gut type self-forgetting, as I see it, means an underlying issue of thinking their presence has little worth and develop strategies to deal with it, such as expansively becoming bigger, or taking on others' agendas and so on.

Ni is not absentminded in the everyday sense, not necessarily. The self-forgetting part is exactly that, an accidental omission rather than a repression of a feeling of worth - they don't think they're unvaluable, but in constructing their understandings of things there is just a distinct lack of acknowledging themselves as part of it. Person and model, separate, though they do seek to act with that understanding. You could liken it to having some super spiffy camera floating up in the sky, thinking you see everything - you just forgot to list yourself behind the camera. Or, say, taking a panorama shot from the Empire State Building and then drawing a map.

Given this usual habit of forgetting to take account of yourself it's hard to imagine it being congruent with the constant, incessant overthinking about personal sentiment and symbolism that Fours compulsively do.


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

None. No type combination is impossible.  Some are just much more likely than others. 



Stevester said:


> ExFJ enn. 5


My mom is probably one... ESFJ - either 5w4 or 4w5. I'm not going rule out 5w4 because it seems weird or impossible. The universe is vast and bizarre and no good scientist rules stuff out just because it seems weird. Ever heard of quantum mechanics? 



Brains said:


> *Ni dominant Four does not make sense*. Dominant Ni is a style that forgets its own impact and existence - not in a gut type repression of personal worth but out of simple absentmindedness. Style Four characterizes a persistently self-obsessed person for whom their own experience and overthinking said experience is paramount.


What on earth do you mean by that? I've heard someone else say this before -- not sure if it was you -- but I questioned them and they never responded. Surely the fact there many INFJ type 4s can make this impossible to be true. Do you think _all _those people are wrong about their type or confused about the theory? 

Sorry, but I don't follow your logic at all here. You may be right about Ni -- I'm not really sure what you're saying but seems like it could make sense if explained more fully. And you're right about type 4. But just because an individual possesses conflicting or contradictory traits does not mean the personality is impossible. Everyone has some aspect of themselves that is contradictory; if you possess two traits that go in direct opposition to each other, your actual expressed personality will be somewhere in the middle between those two. 

No, this isn't science, I can't say that I know all of that for sure, but to me it's the only thing that could possibly make sense.

P.S. Oh I see you explained about Ni in your last post. I quite agree and I think it's an excellent insight about Ni and also spot-on distinction from type 9s/ body types. Not that an individual could ever completely remove themselves or forget their existence, but it does underscore the emphasis on  impersonal perception in Ni-doms, rather than _judging_ in Ne-auxs for example. (I mention that because it seems like people who don't know whether they're INFJ or INFP must not understand the difference between being Perceiving-dominant and Judging-dominant).


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

Brains said:


> Ni is not absentminded in the everyday sense, not necessarily. The self-forgetting part is exactly that, an accidental omission rather than a repression of a feeling of worth


Couldn't someone make the *same case for Ne as well? And wouldn't self-forgetting maybe cause some serious sp issues if it happened that often?


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## Fumetsu (Oct 7, 2015)

The Night's Queen said:


> Nahhhh, Eminem is a classic 6, 368 I think
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


Far too much of a whiny bitch to be an 8.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Fumetsu said:


> Far too much of a whiny bitch to be an 8.


Tech N9ne you mean?
Yeah, idk, @mAAd city do you know any 8 rappers?


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

Fumetsu said:


> Far too much of a whiny bitch to be an 8.


lol. I would have typed him an 8 myself (from interviews, that is). Now I wonder what his Enneagram would be. Maybe cp6?


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

The Night's Queen said:


> Tech N9ne you mean?
> Yeah, idk, @mAAd city do you know any 8 rappers?


He's retired, got tired of the posers and anyone can be aaannyyything mentality.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Brains said:


> He's retired, got tired of the posers and anyone can be aaannyyything mentality.


:sad:
Noooo, that's terrible news, one of the most sensible and interesting posters on here (


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

The Night's Queen said:


> :sad:
> Noooo, that's terrible news, one of the most sensible and interesting posters on here (


That's what this forum does to people. I visit mostly out of boredom myself, genuine learning opportunities are vanishingly rare nowadays, as are serious students (to use the term loosely). Most I usually stand to gain is annoyance.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Brains said:


> That's what this forum does to people. I visit mostly out of boredom myself, genuine learning opportunities are vanishingly rare nowadays, as are serious students (to use the term loosely). Most I usually stand to gain is annoyance.


I enjoy it but I have low standards and am just here for fun


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Brains said:


> That's what this forum does to people. I visit mostly out of boredom myself, genuine learning opportunities are vanishingly rare nowadays, as are serious students (to use the term loosely). Most I usually stand to gain is annoyance.


Those are the same reasons I left for 3 years (posers and idiocy) and also why I came back (boredom).


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## Jeffrei (Aug 23, 2016)

brightflashes said:


> It's my understanding that any MBTI could be any Enneagram type. Enneagram generally comes from patterns which were used for coping with stress during childhood while MBTI is more a pattern of personality trait preferences which develop throughout adolescence and becomes static at age 25.


Ah! That chart. Didn't the data come from PerC?


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Gilly said:


> Types I actually have a hard time imagining are type;
> 
> 5 ESFP/ESTP



ESTPs have Aux Ti so I don't think an ESTP 5 is that far fetched. I would imagine them as a Bear Grylls type. Charismatic, adventurous, want to explore the entire world to see how everything works.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

Brains said:


> anyone can be aaannyyything mentality.


I'm wondering if you personally take issue with this mentality and, if so, why? I don't think there's anything wrong with it myself. According to your own theory that types are so linked up with each other, it would be very rare for you (an INTJ) to actually be a type 8 yourself yet, for the sake of having meaningful conversation, I extend the courtesy of believing you. After all, I reason, you must know something more about who you are than just what I can glean from your MBTI, the few words I have read that you have written, and the way you have treated me in various situations. 

What's wrong with being open minded? Or am I misunderstanding something? I don't mean to be rude and excuse me if I'm mistaken, but it appears that you are talking specifically about me. If you'd like, I'd much rather converse about this directly rather than take passive aims at each other. I can respect that you believe very strongly your side - that certain MBTI types can't be certain Enneagram types, but no matter how much you believe that or @mAAd city believes that, it cannot change what I believe which I was trained to believe through the type of schooling I selected and the job that I have selected. I understand that blindly following the authority in the matter seems sheepish, but I have no choice in matters of research if I'm to be paid any sort of meaningful amount of money for my efforts.

Edit to add: Also, it seems sad that someone would elect to not go to the forum just because other people don't agree with them. It seems that diversity is what helps people the best to gain insight. That's actually why I'm asking you these things directly. I know we disagree about some basic things, but I want to understand why you believe so strongly what you believe. I would like to learn more about the Enneagram and perspectives on it. If you have a different perspective, I want to know that perspective. Why would you not like to know others? And, if not, how do you know that other people are wrong? If you are sure of this, I'd welcome you correcting me in my misunderstanding of MBTI and Enneagram theory. It seems that you want to say these things but then you never back them up (or, if you do, I don't ever see them spelled out). 

You're welcome to PM me if you'd rather talk in private about it. I'm going to bed soon and I work most of tomorrow in a different city, so I'll be afk, but I'll get back to you if you'd like. 

And, anyone else who would like to share insight into this I'm interested.


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## Azazel (May 27, 2016)

Gilly said:


> 1 ENFJ


Just on curiosity... Why? I believe 1[w2] is one of the common ENFJ typings, talking in both insight and anecdotal wise(for myself).

In my opinion, ENFJ is a conforming/compliant but yet leading and idealistic type, qualities from 1.


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## Manuscript (Feb 12, 2017)

Animal said:


> a Ti 4, whose internal world is one of complex intricate ideas and figuring out their feelings through art and music, learning systems through which the heart or elaborate underworld of self is revealed.


Could you elaborate on this? In my mind it comes across as a 5w4 whose wing has overshadowed their core type somehow, by which I mean having most in common with the deep end of 5w4. With both types you're investing your identity and security in the same places, just with a different emphasis. So I find it hard to imagine IxTP 4w5/5w4 (I don't know what to think about 4w3) being more than an academic distinction (or something like 'meh, put all the artists in one box and the scientists in another box').

As for the lines of connection, Two would correspond to the inferior function for IxTPs, but I find it unclear how integration to One applies to this situation. What stands out to me is the lack of a line to Seven. So we have another difference: the IxTP 4 is more diligent but has a worse sense of humour. Helpful.

Another comment I have is that ISFJ 4 seems somehow congruent (and makes me think of those witchy-themed blogs), but oddly I don't recall seeing anyone who claims to be that. I wonder if they aren't all mistyping as INFJs.


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## Krayfish (Nov 3, 2015)

I think that you can find all enneatypes within all mbti types, _however_ I feel like some combinations would be far less unhealthy than others

INTP/INFP/ISFJ/ISTJ Type 8: Si is a function that portrays itself quite softly, and I find it difficult to believe that any strong Si users would be type 8s (besides maybe ESTJ and perhaps ESFJ?) I've seen a couple on this site though, but I'd be curious to see if they considered 6 cp.

ESFJ/ENFP/ESFP/ENFJ type 5: Although I was someone who previously typed as an ENFP 5 (and may actually be an ENFP 5), I don't think that these combinations compliment each other very well. Perhaps Fi users could pull off a health 5w4, but I believe type 5 is far too inwardly focused for these types to be common

ISTJ/INTJ Type 3: This combination would be possible, but far more likely to be extroverted

INTJ/ESTJ/ENTJ/ISTJ Type 7: The descriptions of the two types seem to contradict each other, although perhaps the combo would be slightly more likely for ESTJ


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## Gilly (Apr 22, 2012)

Psyche Aqua said:


> Just on curiosity... Why? I believe 1[w2] is one of the common ENFJ typings, talking in both insight and anecdotal wise(for myself).
> 
> In my opinion, ENFJ is a conforming/compliant but yet leading and idealistic type, qualities from 1.


I've indeed met a type 1 INFJ - which is very off in that they almost seem bipolar between 'infj brain' and 'esfj like' judgmentalness.

So while I don't say it's impossible - I just think they'd likely be mistypes or some such.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Manuscript said:


> Could you elaborate on this? In my mind it comes across as a 5w4 whose wing has overshadowed their core type somehow, by which I mean having most in common with the deep end of 5w4. With both types you're investing your identity and security in the same places, just with a different emphasis. So I find it hard to imagine IxTP 4w5/5w4 (I don't know what to think about 4w3) being more than an academic distinction (or something like 'meh, put all the artists in one box and the scientists in another box').
> 
> As for the lines of connection, Two would correspond to the inferior function for IxTPs, but I find it unclear how integration to One applies to this situation. What stands out to me is the lack of a line to Seven. So we have another difference: the IxTP 4 is more diligent but has a worse sense of humour. Helpful.
> 
> Another comment I have is that ISFJ 4 seems somehow congruent (and makes me think of those witchy-themed blogs), but oddly I don't recall seeing anyone who claims to be that. I wonder if they aren't all mistyping as INFJs.


Aren't you the one putting the artists in one box and the scientists in the other? :wink:

A 4 Ti type could take it upon himself to study the nature of human emotion so that he can understand himself and attribute meaning to his own emotions. He could do this as an attempt to understand the mysteries of his own wild abyss of emotions (inferior Fe) that seem to explode up to the surface. 
4's fear is insignificance - lack of meaning and identity.
So, what marks a 4 is that they attribute meaning to things - their impressions, feelings, thoughts, ideas, structures, inner worlds, experiences...
The functions might determine the specific manner in which they do this. So a Ti dominant 4 might engage a study on general human emotion (Fe) and try to map it out hoping that in turn he would understand himself. He might do this while still being a very emotional creature (we all know about inferior Fe splats and the melancholy or anger or rage beneath).

5 is less about attributing personal meaning to things and more about removing themselves from the equation so they can observe the world as if from outside, in order to build up competency which would then make them feel safe to exert power. This is not Ti per se. 5s' fear is being "useless," and the Ti is a means through which to be "useful." aka competent.

A Ti dominant 4 might apply a logical principle based on their own internal truth which they would then identify with as a 4.

4s also tend to be self-referencing, but they could repeatedly reference their own thought patterns, internal truth, the meanings they have attributed to their feelings and what this says about them (which becomes the structure that they build) whereas a Ti dominant 5 would build a world of internal structure and apply it to a project, a masterpiece, or a field that he becomes competent in, that he might see as his life's work evidencing his competency, but something outside of himself; rather than something he identifies with and says "this work IS me."

A Ti dominant 4 is much more likely to get personal and talk about himself as though his very self is the result of the complex world of meanings that he has attributed to his feelings, ideas, experiences and relationships. And those things _define_ him and constitute his identity.


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## Manuscript (Feb 12, 2017)

Animal said:


> A Ti dominant 4 is much more likely to get personal and talk about himself as though his very self is the result of the complex world of meanings that he has attributed to his feelings, ideas, experiences and relationships. And those things _define_ him and constitute his identity.


So this is my attempt to re-summarise what you described in my own terms:

1. "By situating myself within systems of thought (whether from psychology, metaphysics, the natural sciences, etc.), I put myself into a context that lends me meaning and identity."
2. "I identify strongly with my most valued ideas and principles, which I use as a form of self-expression."

My above description sounds too healthy and integrated. If you can see yourself in an objective framework that relates you to others (!) and uphold a firm set of principles, you must be doing pretty well as a Four. But this ignores the volatility created by the inferior function, upsetting and confusing this type's attempts to make sense of itself. An interesting character. However, surely they would still look similar to Fives.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Manuscript said:


> So this is my attempt to re-summarise what you described in my own terms:
> 
> 1. "By situating myself within systems of thought (whether from psychology, metaphysics, the natural sciences, etc.), I put myself into a context that lends me meaning and identity."
> 2. "I identify strongly with my most valued ideas and principles, which I use as a form of self-expression."
> ...


Oh yes , inferior Fe is actually very akin to some 4 issues. It is a volatile bunch of feelings welling up out of nowhere which the Ti might either ignore in favor of some system or, if he has incorporated "understanding human emotion" or "understanding himself" into his studies, he might examine such emotions deeply and use it as the stuff of music, novels or a basis for psychological study.

It's not about being healthy at all. If a 4 is a Ti dom, the Fe expression of feelings and need for emotional sharing juxtaposed with being blocked by a Ti-based need to filter everything through a logical process that gives it a place in a framework or paradigm that isolates the Ti dom in their own self-imposed castle of individualized ideas... might create tremendous disturbance inside. The 4 then may identify as a chaotic emotional creature whose emotions are out of control and misunderstood, even by the 4 himself.

Remember that the Ti process is a highly subjective process. Read Jung's description here. He is not describing something inherently rational, objective or impersonal. The Ti dom's personal world , just like the Fi dom's, is highly personalized and isolating since nobody else can understand it and it is especially difficult to communicate something so complex. Sound like a 4 description? 



> 1. Thinking
> When describing extraverted thinking, I gave a brief characterization of introverted thinking, to which at this stage I must make further reference. Introverted thinking is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may [p. 481] undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity.
> But just as little as it is given to extraverted thinking to wrest a really sound inductive idea from concrete facts or ever to create new ones, does it lie in the power of introverted thinking to translate its original image into an idea adequately adapted to the facts. For, as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency [p. 482] to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its phantasy image in freedom. In such a case, it will be impossible for the presented idea to deny its origin from the dim archaic image. There will cling to it a certain mythological character that we are prone to interpret as 'originality', or in more pronounced cases' as mere whimsicality; since its archaic character is not transparent as such to specialists unfamiliar with mythological motives. The subjective force of conviction inherent in such an idea is usually very great; its power too is the more convincing, the less it is influenced by contact with outer facts. Although to the man who advocates the idea, it may well seem that his scanty store of facts were the actual ground and source of the truth and validity of his idea, yet such is not the case, for the idea derives its convincing power from its unconscious archetype, which, as such, has universal validity and everlasting truth. Its truth, however, is so universal and symbolic, that it must first enter into the recognized and recognizable knowledge of the time, before it can become a practical truth of any real value to life. What sort of a causality would it be, for instance, that never became perceptible in practical causes and practical results?
> This thinking easily loses itself in the immense truth of the subjective factor. It creates theories for the sake of theories, apparently with a view to real or at least possible facts, yet always with a distinct tendency to go over from the world of ideas into mere imagery. Accordingly many intuitions of possibilities appear on the scene, none of which however achieve any reality, until finally images are produced which no longer express anything externally real, being 'merely' symbols of the simply unknowable. It is now merely a mystical thinking and quite as unfruitful as that empirical thinking whose sole operation is within the framework of objective facts. [p. 483]
> ...



So as you can see,


> If you can see yourself in an objective framework that relates you to others (!)


Nope, Ti is highly subjective.

*

In socionics, it is said that the "role function," meaning the function opposite your first, plays a strong role in the psyche.

So, a Fi dom might have a strong influence from Ti, and a Ti dom might have a strong influence from Fi. It's just not very well integrated. It comes out at the expense of what the person really cares about and once an immediate issue is solved, the person goes back to his dominant function and into a world that the role function cannot interrupt.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

@Animal 

I just want to say that I appreciate your understanding and explanation of Ti. Sometimes I have observations about something but I find it difficult to put into words and when I see others doing it, it's very refreshing. So thanks for that.


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## Manuscript (Feb 12, 2017)

Animal said:


> Oh yes , inferior Fe is actually very akin to some 4 issues. It is a volatile bunch of feelings welling up out of nowhere which the Ti might either ignore in favor of some system or, if he has incorporated "understanding human emotion" or "understanding himself" into his studies, he might examine such emotions deeply and use it as the stuff of music, novels or a basis for psychological study.
> 
> It's not about being healthy at all. If a 4 is a Ti dom, the Fe expression of feelings and need for emotional sharing juxtaposed with being blocked by a Ti-based need to filter everything through a logical process that gives it a place in a framework or paradigm that isolates the Ti dom in their own self-imposed castle of individualized ideas... might create tremendous disturbance inside. The 4 then may identify as a chaotic emotional creature whose emotions are out of control and misunderstood, even by the 4 himself.
> 
> Remember that the Ti process is a highly subjective process. Read Jung's description here. He is not describing something inherently rational, objective or impersonal. The Ti dom's personal world , just like the Fi dom's, is highly personalized and isolating since nobody else can understand it and it is especially difficult to communicate something so complex. Sound like a 4 description?


Ah, sorry, 'objective' was the wrong word. I understand that Ti has an idiosyncratic way of looking at the world, but it seems like Ti-Fe should view the self as a specific instance of the human condition (is that what Holy Origin means?) that's subject to analysis and categorisation. It's fine with universal principles. It'll take ideas from existentialism or depth psychology or personality types to formulate its grand theory of humanity, and it's willing to fit itself into that framework for the sake of insight. But it seems anathema to Fours at low health levels to actually have any success in this respect. That's why I thought it sounded too integrated.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

brightflashes said:


> @*Animal*
> 
> I just want to say that I appreciate your understanding and explanation of Ti. Sometimes I have observations about something but I find it difficult to put into words and when I see others doing it, it's very refreshing. So thanks for that.


Cool! Glad if I could help 
I also have difficulty putting things in words. By the time I'm doing that fluidly, I've absorbed a lot of information, thoughts and analysis already.



Manuscript said:


> Ah, sorry, 'objective' was the wrong word. I understand that Ti has an idiosyncratic way of looking at the world, but it seems like Ti-Fe should view the self as a specific instance of the human condition (is that what Holy Origin means?) that's subject to analysis and categorisation. It's fine with universal principles. It'll take ideas from existentialism or depth psychology or personality types to formulate its grand theory of humanity, and it's willing to fit itself into that framework for the sake of insight. But it seems anathema to Fours at low health levels to actually have any success in this respect. That's why I thought it sounded too integrated.


I see what you mean. But, it's still not integration. I agree about holy origin, but feeling like your inner world is separate from the rest of the world, and your identity is separate, is definitely possible for Ti doms. Otherwise 5s wouldn't be Ti doms. Both 4 and 5 share the feeling of being alien or separate from the world, it's just one focuses on identity and the other on usefulness.

How a 4 struggles with Holy Origin will be very different from 4 to 4. But an attempt to orient themselves with the rest of humans could definitely match a Ti-Fe desire to study and analyze and create systems to understand why they are different and what makes them unlike the rest. They might want to know where they fit into the system so that they can feel more human and thus more part of holy origin. Remember in enneagram a vice comes with a virtue.


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

I remember seeing an INFP 8 on here a while ago, but I think they switched their type to INFJ. Also remember seeing an INFP 3 many moons ago. Interesting mix.


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## fawning (May 31, 2015)

According to the chart @brightflashes posted, my status as an IN*P (it really depends where in my bipolar cycle I am for the F or the T, as sometimes I'm not very... able to feel) 1w2 is rare/uncommon. That would make sense, I don't have a lot in common with other 1s I've met or even the other 1s on this forum, but I'm reasonably certain I'm not any other type.


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