# Cognitive functions - chakra link



## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

As I've found out in the past years, the 7 chakras are energy vortices attached to different vertical points on our body with the lower ones being our link to the material world (our body and planet Earth aka Gaia), and the higher ones our link to the spiritual world (our Higher Self). Why do they have different colors? Because physics teaches us that the universe is made up out of waves (infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, microwave, UV, etc.) and the frequency of the wave determines the color and many of its other physical properties (sound, shape, etc.). Our 7 chakras are linked to these waves, with the lower ones tuning in to the lower frequency waves (infrared and the lower end of the light spectrum), and the higher ones tuning in to the higher frequency waves (the higher end of the light spectrum and the ultraviolet). 

However, what contemporary physics has yet to realise is that these that each frequency of waves not only corresponds to a different chakra but also a different state of consciousness or "cognitive function". So, in that sense your state of consciousness determines your personality type. So, contrary to mainstream psychology/sociology (which primarily views the personality as fixed and determined by environment (nurture)), you do actually choose your personality by deciding what state of consciousness or frequency waves or chakras to tune in and live your life by, although you can also choose not to choose which means you allow your environment to determine it for you. Unfortunately this applies to the majority of the human population (group mentality), so psychology/sociology has therefore laid the connection that we do not really have free will. (As does the scientific department who also do not believe we have free will because "our genes decide our actions". Never did they ask the question: "Do we decide what genes to activate and disactivate?")


So to sum it up in a nutshell:
What I'm getting at is that I decided to venture into the unknown lands of Eastern knowledge and what I've found was that the 8 cognitive MBTI functions correspond with the 7 chakras in your body. Really simple. This means that psychology should ultimately also be able to be proven technologically through the physics of waves, an alien concept so far.

Here it is:

1. Root - Moving/instinctive center (red) - Extraverted Sensing
2. Lower back/belly - Lower emotional center (orange) - Extraverted Feeling
3. Solar plexus - sexual center (yellow) - Introverted Sensing / Extraverted Intuition
4. Heart - Higher emotional center (green) - Introverted Feeling
5. Throat - Lower intellectual center (blue) - Extraverted Thinking
6. Third eye - Combination of higher emotional and higher intellectual centers (indigo) - Introverted Intuition
7. Crown - Higher intellectual center (violet) - Introverted Thinking

(Source: Cassiopaea glossary (without the MBTI function attachments))

Chakra 1 to 3-4 correspond with primarily extraverted sensation and feeling functions, while chakra 4 to 7 correspond with primarily introverted thinking and intuitive functions. Chakra 1 to 3 is primarily ruled by the right hemisphere, while chakra 4-5 to 7 is primarily ruled by the left hemisphere, with the fourth heart chakra being the stable middle ground. A good functioning heart chakra is therefore the key to your mental, emotional and physical well-being, but it is not the end all be all of existence. 

Conclusion:
Once again, INTP's win, since they hold they crown, and therefore hold the Truth. I am most likely not an INTP, but I admit my defeat. INTP's are enlightened beings, should be worshipped instead of locked in the basement tied to a computer screen. Also INFP's, ENFP's and ISFP's are the most balanced, since their dominant and auxiliary functions lie closest to the middle heart. This may be highly surprising to many types, especially ESFJ's, ESTJ's, ENTJ's and ESTP's who usually consider these 'dreamy' types as imbalanced.

(Edit: Can't post links yet because my post count is too low. Also altered the post somewhat because there was alot of irrelevant info after re-reading it )


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## Worth Lessemo (Feb 20, 2012)

I know a lot of theory behind chakras and energy.

I used to wonder about energy and compatibility in personality, not sure if MBTI is compatible. Almost everything else about Jung, and even psychoanalysis as a whole dealing with personality complexes and archetypes is compatible. 

(Basically I thought that sensors and extraverts were inferior in terms of energy because they always hovered in the lower forms of energy and lower forms of consciousness. Since then I've challenged that from quite a few angles, and I haven't really defeated it completely. I think some initial impressions of hierarchy have been removed from my mind, and exist more as inclinations and slight correlations. Also some people are just dead circuits regardless of personality. Aside from that quirk I think that energy work can be great for developing cognitive functions.)

As an INTJ NiTeFiSe I guess I'd mostly be hanging around the energy of the sixth and fifth primarily (the work and mission of humanity). Secondarily, I am also affirming of the heart and the root of humanity. I guess the second, third, and seventh are somewhat off my radar most of the time. In a loose sense, I'd say that's kind of accurate.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

Worth Lessemo said:


> As an INTJ NiTeFiSe I guess I'd mostly be hanging around the energy of the sixth and fifth primarily (the work and mission of humanity). Secondarily, I am also affirming of the heart and the root of humanity. I guess the second, third, and seventh are somewhat off my radar most of the time. In a loose sense, I'd say that's kind of accurate.


Thanks for your reply, seems to fit pretty well with in the model so far. Cmon guys, I need more information! List your type and tell us which parts of your body lead you, if you can sense that.


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## Worth Lessemo (Feb 20, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Thanks for your reply, seems to fit pretty well with in the model so far. Cmon guys, I need more information! List your type and tell us which parts of your body lead you, if you can sense that.


I'm very interested in hearing how ISFP and INFP relate to this. Also ENTP. Hopefully more people join in.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Are you sure Solar Plexus sexual center?  (control/(will)power)

And I would suggest Extraverted Intuition 2nd (sexual center/creative force) ?


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## Bardo (Dec 4, 2012)

Goddamn this thread sent me into such an Ni spiral. 

This is one of those moments where you have to go full retard, if your going to bring together chakra centers into functions then you're going to have to look at pythagoras theory of color and music which designates the musical modes/notes of the major scale, colors, states of matter and energy, chakras and the emotions to each other.

I'm going to get my guitar and read a bunch of shit then I'll be back in this thread. I hope you're happy now.


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## CaptainWayward (Jun 8, 2012)

hmm, I'd say Ti is more 3rd eye and Ni is more crown. Oh, and that chakras are merely an outdated way of looking at the mind, assuming said 'higher' plane doesn't exist.


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## Worth Lessemo (Feb 20, 2012)

CaptainWayward said:


> hmm, I'd say Ti is more 3rd eye and Ni is more crown. Oh, and that chakras are merely an outdated way of looking at the mind, assuming said 'higher' plane doesn't exist.


I don't think the Chakras will ever be outdated. Most of the people I learned about energy from were atheists who did not acknowledge a higher power, but there were still plenty of uses for expanding the mind, personal growth, and health.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Are you sure Solar Plexus sexual center? (control/(will)power)
> 
> And I would suggest Extraverted Intuition 2nd (sexual center/creative force) ?


1) I wasnt the one who listed the chakra names. Those came from the Cassiopaea glossary. They defy the norm somewhat since most other sources list the 2nd one as the sexual one. But the names are unimportant rly. Wat I did find interesting is that this source listed the yellow one as the only higher lower (=conscious subconscious/introverted extraverted) center and the blue one as the only lower higher (=subconscious conscious/extraverted introverted) center.

2) I tried to be as objective as possible in this subjective assessment, but I really could not identify Ne with the second chakra being more gut-based than the third, and we all clearly see how deep Ne users can go (=conscious), yet Ne is still very impulsive (=subconscious). And wat is the conscious subconscious center, the solar plexus. This means that it overlapped with Si, but then again, Si is also a mystery like Ne, so I thought it fitted, in an unfitting way .


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bardo said:


> Goddamn this thread sent me into such an Ni spiral.
> 
> This is one of those moments where you have to go full retard, if your going to bring together chakra centers into functions then you're going to have to look at pythagoras theory of color and music which designates the musical modes/notes of the major scale, colors, states of matter and energy, chakras and the emotions to each other.
> 
> I'm going to get my guitar and read a bunch of shit then I'll be back in this thread. I hope you're happy now.


Reading your post caused me to have a mindsplosion too, so thanks -.-

I have only briefly looked into chakras. I took some random test and it said I was open in most areas but heart, root and belly. However, according to that test, heart would be to openly express your emotions which I do not, and I do not see the correlation to Fi judgement here at all. According to that test, the crown was also the most open out of my points but meh, tests are tests.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Reading your post caused me to have a mindsplosion too, so thanks -.-
> 
> I have only briefly looked into chakras. I took some random test and it said I was open in most areas but heart, root and belly. However, according to that test, heart would be to openly express your emotions which I do not, and I do not see the correlation to Fi judgement here at all. According to that test, the crown was also the most open out of my points but meh, tests are tests.


:shocked: OMG, INTP!! /bow 

No, seriously, INTP = Ti (crown) -> Ne (solar plexus) -> Si (solar plexus)/Fe (sacral), and your test said least open in heart (Fi), root (Se) and belly/sacral (Fe), most open in crown (Ti). I'd say that's pretty accurate again.

Also, like you said, tests are tests, only useful as a starting point with anything.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> :shocked: OMG, INTP!! /bow
> 
> No, seriously, INTP = Ti (crown) -> Ne (solar plexus) -> Si (solar plexus)/Fe (sacral), and your test said least open in heart (Fi), root (Se) and belly/sacral (Fe), most open in crown (Ti). I'd say that's pretty accurate again.
> 
> Also, like you said, tests are tests, only useful as a starting point with anything.


The problem is, it is NOT congruent with how I view myself and understand the functions accordingly. I am very prone to Fi judgement, VERY prone. It's compulsive, even. I didn't realize how compulsive it was until I asked an INFJ what she thought about always feeling the need to have personal opinions and judgements about things, what which point she said, "I don't really relate or do any of that, it sounds more like Fi to me". She's right, it's probably related to Fi that I feel the need to formulate some kind of opinion about things. Doesn't need to be logical mind you, they are most definitely value judgements (do I think the shootings in Connecticut are moral or not? What's my opinion about the current gun laws?). And I feel like a fish out of water if I have no opinion to offer, even if I am not vocalizing it. As I said, it's compulsive. 

Fi judgement has nothing to do with being openly emotionally expressive or not (Fe doesn't either but strong Fe types are probably a wee bit more likely to be), but an ability to judge things according to your own inner values. Doesn't say shit whether that means you must express it to others or not. I have very little with regards to mush. 

Here's a cognitive test result I just took just now by the way: 

*Cognitive Process**Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)*extraverted Sensing (Se) ********** (10)
unusedintroverted Sensing (Si) ***************** (17)
limited useextraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************************************** (50.8)
excellent useintroverted Intuiting (Ni) ******************************* (31.4)
good useextraverted Thinking (Te) ******************************** (32.3)
good useintroverted Thinking (Ti) ********************************************* (45.4)
excellent useextraverted Feeling (Fe) ********* (9.1)
unusedintroverted Feeling (Fi) ******************************************** (44.4)
excellent use


Not very congruent with the chakra scored I received. I have consistently scored high on Fi since... I began taking this test pretty much, which was even before I had a good understanding of the functions. I would need to do more research on this subject but my impression thus far is that heart =/= Fi or F in general, for the matter. I think it would be much easier to draw clear analogies to enneagram than to the JCF.

I think you will find that 2 fixers, especially cores, would correspond strongly to the heart chakra based on my speculations here. I may be wrong, of course. Also, INTPs are not some gods to be worshipped. Godness gracious. People need to drop this whole "NTs are speshiul" attitude in general. Fuck you Keirsey for even propagating such a thing to begin with.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> 1) I wasnt the one who listed the chakra names. Those came from the Cassiopaea glossary. They defy the norm somewhat since most other sources list the 2nd one as the sexual one. But the names are unimportant rly. Wat I did find interesting is that this source listed the yellow one as the only higher lower (=conscious subconscious/introverted extraverted) center and the blue one as the only lower higher (=subconscious conscious/extraverted introverted) center.
> 
> 2) I tried to be as objective as possible in this subjective assessment, but I really could not identify Ne with the second chakra being more gut-based than the third, and we all clearly see how deep Ne users can go (=conscious), yet Ne is still very impulsive (=subconscious). And wat is the conscious subconscious center, the solar plexus. This means that it overlapped with Si, but then again, Si is also a mystery like Ne, so I thought it fitted, in an unfitting way .


I don't follow.  Lost track somewhere. :tongue:


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

CaptainWayward said:


> hmm, I'd say Ti is more 3rd eye and Ni is more crown. Oh, and that chakras are merely an outdated way of looking at the mind, assuming said 'higher' plane doesn't exist.


3rd eye is definately the most intuitive, visionairy, foreseeing, clairvoyant of all chakras (hence it's name), therefore I'd say that's Ni without a doubt. Plus, on my source it was also listed as a combination of higher (=introverted) feeling (F) and thinking (T) centers, and thus not a pure T center, so it must be an N one (intuition I can definately see as a cross between thinking and feeling, but not sensing), hence we come with Ni again. 

Plus, the throat chakra (first intellectual (T) center) seemed like an easy one, Te (extraverted centers of the same cognitive function must always be located lower than the introverted counterpart). Hence, it would again not be appropiate to list Ti as the third eye, for that would mean it would be just above Te, and thus directly touch it, and that would be an anomaly, seeing as all the other centers have atleast 1 center with a totally different function between them. So, the only remaining place was the crown, which my source also listed as the higher intellectual center. Again, fitting don't you think?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> So, the only remaining place was the crown, which my source also listed as the higher intellectual center. Again, fitting don't you think?


Why must Ti somehow be the highest form of intellectualism? It kind of makes me want to throw up a little and I see your own preference for Ti pushing it to be like that rather than objectively examining what Ti is or what it isn't. Ti has nothing to do with intellectualism but is about how you make logical judgements which basically relies on: it makes sense to me so it must be true. That has nothing to do with intellectualism. Any person can be a Ti type but it doesn't mean they must be smart. 

Also, why must the third eye be Ni? You seem to be over-relying on Jung's (and to an extent Nardi's) definition of Ni being this mystically tinted function no one can understand or truly describe due to its abstract nature which isn't true either. I can see why people describe Ni that way, and especially why Jung did it because he linked the functions to various archetypes, but if you actually truly study the functions you will see that a lot of functions when working in tandem with each other can create the same mystical revelations Ni can. 

Fi can for example create snap judgements of people or situations about how you feel about something without knowing why. You know that you just do. Ti can similarly create snap judgements whether something is true or false and Si can take in emotional atmospheres just like Ni can with Se and create "I have a bad feeling about this" impression.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

LeaT said:


> The problem is, it is NOT congruent with how I view myself and understand the functions accordingly. *I am very prone to Fi judgement, VERY prone.* (1) It's compulsive, even. I didn't realize how compulsive it was until I asked an INFJ what she thought about always feeling the need to have personal opinions and judgements about things, what which point she said, "I don't really relate or do any of that, it sounds more like Fi to me". *She's right, it's probably related to Fi that I feel the need to formulate some kind of opinion about things. Doesn't need to be logical mind you, they are most definitely value judgements* (2) (do I think the shootings in Connecticut are moral or not? What's my opinion about the current gun laws?). And I feel like a fish out of water if I have no opinion to offer, even if I am not vocalizing it. As I said, it's compulsive.
> 
> *Fi judgement has nothing to do with being openly emotionally expressive or not (Fe doesn't either but strong Fe types are probably a wee bit more likely to be), but an ability to judge things according to your own inner values.* (3) Doesn't say shit whether that means you must express it to others or not. I have very little with regards to mush.
> 
> ...


1) The heart is the center of our being, so whether you have it and its corresponding function (assuming it is Fi, which I still think 90%) in your personality type or not, it will still dictate much of your actions and thought, whether it's on the forefront (open chakra) or hiding in the shadow (closed chakra).

2) Fi or Fe (Fe can be as unnice as it can be nice, contrary to popular opinion.)

3) Openly expressive implies open chakra.

4) Maybe you're working on your inferior/shadow functions? Or maybe the MBTI 16 type model is outdated and far too limiting? I believe that there are an infinite amount of personalities, as there are an infinite number of frequencies in the universe. Perhaps there really are dominant thinkers who have a feeling function as their auxiliary, why not? 

5) Heart is feeling-based, whether negative or positive. It's still a feeling center, between body/gut centers and mind centers.

6) My INTP "worship" is just a joke, I knew INTP's were humble and all, but man, I never expected they would be offended by it. Kings who don't want to be kings are the true kings roud:.


Also, people need to realise that most MBTI experts are dominant thinkers, and unless he/she is very developed, they usually have a vary vague idea of how a dominant feeler mind works. They usually describe feelers' values through the lense of their rational/fixed way, and if you think you're a dominant feeler, because you can identify with their description, it's likely that you're mainly a thinker with many secondary values, because a true feeler would not identify with the fixed description, as such a description takes away the value of their feelings.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> 1) The heart is the center of our being, so whether you have it and its corresponding function (assuming it is Fi, which I still think 90%) in your personality type or not, it will still dictate much of your actions and thought, whether it's on the forefront (open chakra) or hiding in the shadow (closed chakra).
> 
> 2) Fi or Fe (Fe can be as unnice as it can be nice, contrary to popular opinion.)
> 
> ...


Ehm... so in other words you just missed my entire point of what I was saying about how F as a function has little to do with emotional expressiveness or not. F is a judgement function, it evaluates meaning. Has nothing to do with expressiveness again.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Ehm... so in other words you just missed my entire point of what I was saying about how F as a function has little to do with emotional expressiveness or not. F is a judgement function, it evaluates meaning. Has nothing to do with expressiveness again.


But therefore I can still dig Fi being Heart. 

Hi! btw


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> But therefore I can still dig Fi being Heart.
> 
> Hi! btw


Hi? 

And I don't like how the OP says Ti must be crown and thus end of all knowledge and wisdom either


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Why must Ti somehow be the highest form of intellectualism? It kind of makes me want to throw up a little and I see your own preference for Ti pushing it to be like that rather than objectively examining what Ti is or what it isn't. Ti has nothing to do with intellectualism but is about how you make logical judgements which basically relies on: it makes sense to me so it must be true. That has nothing to do with intellectualism. Any person can be a Ti type but it doesn't mean they must be smart.


I didn't label T as intellectualism, the source Cassiopaea glossary did. What do labels matter anyway? However, I would say it's very logical to assume that you will find more intellectual T's than F's. Secondly, I do not perceive my "higher" label in anyway better than my "lower" label. You do. You find it arrogant that someone tries to find the truth of the matter, which goes against your liberal ALL IS EQUAL dogma. That's a lie! Just as men and women are not equal, just ask a neurobiologist. Higher simply means faster vibration or shorter wavelength, lower means lower vibration or longer wavelength. However, if I am ever forced between chosing my higher and lower self I will choose the higher, because you don't see a plant growing deeper and deeper in the Earth either do you? No, they're growing upwards towards the Sun (ultra-high vibration). The Earth sustains them for this journey. It's the powerful base, the womb, but have you ever seen a baby which wasn't trying to get out of the womb?



LeaT said:


> Also, why must the third eye be Ni? You seem to be over-relying on Jung's (and to an extent Nardi's) definition of Ni being this mystically tinted function no one can understand or truly describe due to its abstract nature which isn't true either. I can see why people describe Ni that way, and especially why Jung did it because he linked the functions to various archetypes, but if you actually truly study the functions you will see that a lot of functions when working in tandem with each other can create the same mystical revelations Ni can.


 Yup, I do overly rely on Jung's definition, because he FOUNDED IT! Just as Einstein founded E=mc². Physicists who do not respect Einstein are hypocrites, because their new formulas are ultimately based on his findings. 
Without Jung Ni would not exist (but people would still be using it). But if every pseudo-psychologist wants to twist Jung's work according what makes them feel comfortable or on how THEY SEE IT, then it's gonna take a long time before we will ever have some clarity on this matter. (Then again, less clarity means more complexity, means more specialization, means more money to be made into MBTI career expertise.) Hence why I find Ti the man for this job.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Hi?
> 
> And I don't like how the OP says Ti must be crown and thus end of all knowledge and wisdom either


Nice to see you returned. 

I can dig Ti from a tantric pov. Also ultimately,



> We are not born with an ‘I’ – the ego emerges only gradually as experience shapes our dense web of active symbols into a tapestry rich and complex enough to begin twisting back upon itself. According to this view the psychological ‘I’ is a narrative fiction, something created only from intake of symbolic data and its own ability to create stories about itself from that data.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Hi?
> 
> And I don't like how the OP says Ti must be crown and thus end of all knowledge and wisdom either


No ofcourse not, it is the link to knowledge and wisdom. The universe doesn't stop at the visible light spectrum  After violet comes red again, but a faster red than our red. A new musical octave. One we can't see in this body, because this body is sensually attuned to our octave frequencies (hence: "visible" light). So after Ti comes another Se (assuming my model is correct). Also another reason why I like Ti as opposed to Ni on top is because Ti lies then on the other end of the Se of our octave, so you have a judgement function opposed to a perceiving function, which is I would say more stable than a perceiving opposed to a perceiving. Nothing to do with personal preference, but with balance and stability.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> I didn't label T as intellectualism, the source Cassiopaea glossary did. What do labels matter anyway? However, I would say it's very logical to assume that you will find more intellectual T's than F's. Secondly, I do not perceive my "higher" label in anyway better than my "lower" label. You do. You find it arrogant that someone tries to find the truth of the matter, which goes against your liberal ALL IS EQUAL dogma. That's a lie! Just as men and women are not equal, just ask a neurobiologist. Higher simply means faster vibration or shorter wavelength, lower means lower vibration or longer wavelength. However, if I am ever forced between chosing my higher and lower self I will choose the higher, because you don't see a plant growing deeper and deeper in the Earth either do you? No, they're growing upwards towards the Sun (ultra-high vibration). The Earth sustains them for this journey. It's the powerful base, the womb, but have you ever seen a baby which wasn't trying to get out of the womb?
> 
> Yup, I do overly rely on Jung's definition, because he FOUNDED IT! Just as Einstein founded E=mc². Physicists who do not respect Einstein are hypocrites, because their new formulas are ultimately based on his findings.
> Without Jung Ni would not exist (but people would still be using it). But if every pseudo-psychologist wants to twist Jung's work according what makes them feel comfortable or on how THEY SEE IT, then it's gonna take a long time before we will ever have some clarity on this matter. (Then again, less clarity means more complexity, means more specialization, means more money to be made into MBTI career expertise.) Hence why I find Ti the man for this job.


Plants do grow downward. It's called root.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Plants do grow downward. It's called root.


Good one, you almost got me .


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> I didn't label T as intellectualism, the source Cassiopaea glossary did. What do labels matter anyway? However, I would say it's very logical to assume that you will find more intellectual T's than F's. Secondly, I do not perceive my "higher" label in anyway better than my "lower" label. You do. You find it arrogant that someone tries to find the truth of the matter, which goes against your liberal ALL IS EQUAL dogma. That's a lie! Just as men and women are not equal, just ask a neurobiologist. Higher simply means faster vibration or shorter wavelength, lower means lower vibration or longer wavelength. However, if I am ever forced between chosing my higher and lower self I will choose the higher, because you don't see a plant growing deeper and deeper in the Earth either do you? No, they're growing upwards towards the Sun (ultra-high vibration). The Earth sustains them for this journey. It's the powerful base, the womb, but have you ever seen a baby which wasn't trying to get out of the womb?


If I am going to be like that, then intellectualism as a trait is completely useless since it's just a social construct anyone can adhere to if you simply apply the proper social standards of what it means to be an intellectual is. Suffice to say, if one is going to be anal, I think most self-identified intellectuals you find on the internet are going to find themselves missing out on the party. 

And yes, I find it arrogant because it goes against what...? My personal values. Fi-reasoning, call it whatever. I think everyone is created equal and that any tint of inequality are tints of inequality because we are blindfolded by the social discourses that surround is daily to the point we reach a chokepoint and instead of spitting we choose to swallow because it's always easier to walk the path of least resistance than going against the grain and become self-aware. It doesn't mean the road has to be easy, it will most likely be extremely bumpy with many attempts to take a step forward and instead find yourself walking two steps backward, but to blindly hold onto biologism that you do, and no, I am not saying this because I ascribe to social liberalism because that too is a lie in its own way, but biologism is more of a lie, but I say this because I think it's that, right to fight the good fight. We may look differently but as human beings we are worth just as much.


> Yup, I do overly rely on Jung's definition, because he FOUNDED IT! Just as Einstein founded E=mc². Physicists who do not respect Einstein are hypocrites, because their new formulas are ultimately based on his findings.


So wait, you are just another one of those silly people who claim Jung = God like I see some others do in here, and whenever it happens I just feel like stomping on their bible and wiping it with my ass while I'm at it just because I can? I respect Einstein and Jung all right, but it doesn't mean I take their word for law or The Truth TM. In order to strive forward we must question, not unquestionably cling to what we already know. 

I'm willing to listen to anyone with a new idea of how to push forward but clinging to known thinkers just because is not a way of doing that. 


> Without Jung Ni would not exist (but people would still be using it). But if every pseudo-psychologist wants to twist Jung's work according what makes them feel comfortable or on how THEY SEE IT, then it's gonna take a long time before we will ever have some clarity on this matter. (Then again, less clarity means more complexity, means more specialization, means more money to be made into MBTI career expertise.) Hence why I find Ti the man for this job.


Clarification then: without Jung the perception that we call Ni would not exist. It does not however mean that it has not already been identified and labelled something else. Not once did I bring in pseudo-psychologists in this matter unless you insuniate I am one, perhaps you are correct, although I do not claim to be a Jungian analyst to begin with, I'm just what you'd call a hobby practitioneer, but again, words only mean something based on how you choose to define them, eh? 



mimesis said:


> Nice to see you returned.
> 
> I can dig Ti from a tantric pov. Also ultimately,


Your local 5w4 at your service, questioning all known theories as per usual.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

@LeaT One last thing: Equality through diversity. Equality and individuality are 2 sides of the same coin. Clinging to either one, you will end up having neither. The equalists will try to force equality (communism) and deny all contradicting evidence, and the individualists will be a bunch of narcissistic capitalists. Why do you think nature invented the sexes?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> @_LeaT_ One last thing: Equality through diversity. Equality and individuality are 2 sides of the same coin. Clinging to either one, you will end up having neither. The equalists will try to force equality (communism) and deny all contradicting evidence, and the individualists will be a bunch of narcissistic capitalists. Why do you think nature invented the sexes?


I think sex is gendered and gender is sexed. I'm a social anthropologist, I don't feel the need to be confined to the two binaries you offer me. They are already culturally limited and their limits are imposed because of the discourses that surround us now. What if individual freedom can be found in the collective? You clearly didn't think of that one.

You're supposed to be an ENTP, thinking outside the box shouldn't be difficult for you.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Ehm... so in other words you just missed my entire point of what I was saying about how F as a function has little to do with emotional expressiveness or not. F is a judgement function, it evaluates meaning. Has nothing to do with expressiveness again.


No, I wasn't missing your point, I just don't agree with it. You think it doesn't require a judgement to openly express your emotions? One must consider it meaningful before one does it. Open expression implies positive judgement (meaningful to express), avoidance implies negative judgement (not meaningful to express). No emotional expression implies F not at work.
Now whether those expressed emotions are happy, sad, etc. , that's something else.

Also, yes, everyone has emotions, but only feelers work with them consciously.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I think sex is gendered and gender is sexed. I'm a social anthropologist, I don't feel the need to be confined to the two binaries you offer me. They are already culturally limited and their limits are imposed because of the discourses that surround us now. What if individual freedom can be found in the collective? You clearly didn't think of that one.
> 
> You're supposed to be an ENTP, thinking outside the box shouldn't be difficult for you.


I didn't ask for your external function in the real world. I lost much of my thrust in the authorities in the last years, hence I had to develop Ti, my own internal authority. Hence again, I'd say Ti is the crown, since that implies "enlightenment", the final judgement which allows you to see through the illusion which external authority creates. However, this does explain your negative attitude towards my ideas, since you have alot invested in your specialization, which I am here turning upside down.

And yes, I still think I am ENTP, find me an ENTP collectivist and we talk again. If the collective does not support individual exploration, than I'd say the collective can fuck off. Individual freedom to be found in the collective, that sounds just like a control scheme, aka religion/nationalism/communism/scientism. Nothing for me I'm afraid.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> I didn't ask for your external function in the real world. I lost much of my thrust in the authorities in the last years, hence I had to develop Ti, my own internal authority. Hence again, I'd say Ti is the crown, since that applies "enlightenment", the final judgement which allows you to see through the illusion which external authority creates. However, this does explain your negative attitude towards my ideas, since you have alot invested in your specialization, which I am here turning upside down.
> 
> And yes, I still think I am ENTP, find me an ENTP collectivist and we talk again. If the collective does not support individual exploration, than I'd say the collective can fuck off. Individual freedom to be found in the collective, that sounds just like a control scheme, aka religion/nationalism/communism/scientism. Nothing for me I'm afraid.


My specialization has very little to do with how I am responding to you, more than I think it makes me more capable of seeing through some of the bs you are giving me. You may see Ti as the crown but I don't and that was my entire point - it reeked of personal bias that I do not share. 

My "specialization", as you call it, is in fact specialized in turning people's established worldviews upside down. However, I see you clinging quite well onto yours if you say you value individual freedom aka individualism or whatever you want to call it, without even thinking about other possibilties or how they pertain. How is that being a rational and free thinker again, buying what the society tells you to think?

Do note that I did not once mention nationalism, communism, religion or anything of the sort as a way to understand a collective. Again, you're limited in your thinking and your bias is shining through. An anarchist will claim that they are the ideal communists too. No, that's not an oxymoron.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

Ok LeaT, what cognitive function would you assign to the crown? And btw, you're an xNTJ.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Ok LeaT, what cognitive function would you assign to the crown? And btw, you're an xNTJ.


I said I have no real opinion about the matter not fully understanding what the crown is, but based on the little you've provided here I find it weird you attribute to Ti for no real apparent reason than you having a personal preference towards Ti as a function. That doesn't sound like sound methodology to me. 

And just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean I must be an xNTJ by the way, but whatever. Think whatever you want of my type, I know I've been strangely Te-ing lately.


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## CaptainWayward (Jun 8, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> 3rd eye is definately the most intuitive, visionairy, foreseeing, clairvoyant of all chakras (hence it's name), therefore I'd say that's Ni without a doubt. Plus, on my source it was also listed as a combination of higher (=introverted) feeling (F) and thinking (T) centers, and thus not a pure T center, so it must be an N one (intuition I can definately see as a cross between thinking and feeling, but not sensing), hence we come with Ni again.
> 
> Plus, the throat chakra (first intellectual (T) center) seemed like an easy one, Te (extraverted centers of the same cognitive function must always be located lower than the introverted counterpart). Hence, it would again not be appropiate to list Ti as the third eye, for that would mean it would be just above Te, and thus directly touch it, and that would be an anomaly, seeing as all the other centers have atleast 1 center with a totally different function between them. So, the only remaining place was the crown, which my source also listed as the higher intellectual center. Again, fitting don't you think?


Sorry boss, I think you're creating arbitrary rules to make the connections work and in doing so are vastly simplify both systems. Also, the throat is associated with self-expression, not necessarily objective organization and analysis of systems. Now looking back, Ti doesn't fit the 3rd eye either, but I definitely wouldn't say Ti == the crown chakra considering the crown is also associated with consciousness and wisdom. Ni, is pretty much the embodiment of wisdom; it's a collimation of all the individual learned into a finite packets of information, which arise based on an inquiry. So in some sense, you could say Ni is the crown, working in conjunction with the root, the 3rd eye, and throat.


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## CaptainWayward (Jun 8, 2012)

Worth Lessemo said:


> I don't think the Chakras will ever be outdated. Most of the people I learned about energy from were atheists who did not acknowledge a higher power, but there were still plenty of uses for expanding the mind, personal growth, and health.


IDK, I think Jung's system is a step beyond it. It's definitely still useful, but it seems to be a mere platform to talk about mental unrest and to explore bodily function. There is plenty of neuroscience that can be applied to improve your cognitive capacity, which in some sense replaces the chakra system.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

LeaT said:


> I know I've been strangely Te-ing lately.


That's not really what I noticed....


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## Aquarian (Jun 17, 2012)

bardo said:


> goddamn this thread sent me into such an ni spiral.
> 
> This is one of those moments where you have to go full retard, if your going to bring together chakra centers into functions then you're going to have to look at pythagoras theory of color and music which designates the musical modes/notes of the major scale, colors, states of matter and energy, chakras and the emotions to each other.
> 
> I'm going to get my guitar and read a bunch of shit then i'll be back in this thread. I hope you're happy now.


for the win!


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

CaptainWayward said:


> Sorry boss, I think you're creating arbitrary rules to make the connections work and in doing so are vastly simplify both systems. Also, the throat is associated with self-expression, not necessarily objective organization and analysis of systems. Now looking back, Ti doesn't fit the 3rd eye either, but I definitely wouldn't say Ti == the crown chakra considering the crown is also associated with consciousness and wisdom. Ni, is pretty much the embodiment of wisdom; it's a collimation of all the individual learned into a finite packets of information, which arise based on an inquiry. So in some sense, you could say Ni is the crown, working in conjunction with the root, the 3rd eye, and throat.


I think this paragraph describes well the (subtle) distinction between 3rd *eye* and Crown, but also the difference between intuitive (ap)*perception* (P) and thinking judgement (J):



> At this stage inexperienced meditators may become afraid, thinking that they are going to die if they continue the concentration because the feeling of breathing and the feeling of having a physical body has completely disappeared. They should not be so afraid and should continue their concentration in order to reach "full concentration" _(jhāna)_


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

Well, first of all I do not agree with most of the New Age descriptions of the chakra system. I think these descriptions are way too fluffy sounding and alot of it is just wishful thinking and mystical like the zodiac. They don't approach it objectively enough and it's all about selling these half-truth teachings to the self-help/how to improve your life crowd. Most rational people sense this and therefore ditch the chakra system altogether, which I decided not to do, because I can feel them.

That aside, I shall try to clarify why I still believe Ti is associated with the crown chakra. If you have some background in the chakra department you will find that almost everywhere the crown is listed as the sum of all lower chakras, the link to the divine, and therefore the key to the esoteric concept of enlightenment (not necessarily mystical, to enlight = to understand). So it's associated with increased clarity of perception. But what does that mean, clarity? It means that there must also be a fog, a maze, an illusion, a puzzle, a mystery, a system (otherwise clarity does not have a dualistic opposite and it would not exist). And solving that puzzle brings you clarity, you see the completed picture. So which cognitive function works in this manner? I only know of one: Introverted thinking. It is the only function I can identify which works in this manner (second to Ni, but it's often said that the crown and 3rd eye work very closely to eachother), trying to solve the universal puzzle, breaking it down to its essence. Contrary to extraverted thinking which operates within the system, introverted thinkers try to understand the system, so they are no longer limited by it. (Very much like the movie the Matrix, Neo gets constantly bombarded with logical puzzles that question his unquestionned beliefs, so he learns to think for himself and slowly becomes the One (aka "enlightened"). And especially in the last movie, you see Neo and Trinity flying the Logos into the sky where they see a new reality (a new root chakra, a new Se), but this came only after they solved the puzzle of the Matrix.) 

This is actually the basis of many religions, especially gnosticism and Eastern ones like buddhism and zen, which you will find are often very logical. These people have only one desire (or so they say), to be set free from the fog of the material world, and they do it by understanding the rules of the material world, ironically. Now, I don't really agree with this radical approach, because the fog is there for a reason.

Also, it isn't better to be enlightened or not, it's a choice, it's a desire, like sex. And it has nothing to do with love either, that's the heart. I'd say it's pretty possible for enlightened psychopaths to exist. That's why you have to listen to the other chakras aswell and why most New Age teachers stress the importance of balance. As you do LeaT, because your values tell you that it's dangerous to put Ti at the top, seeing all the inhumane atrocities that elitist thinkers have caused in the past, and I agree, but I'm trying to solve a puzzle here, and I cannot deny putting Ti at the crown. However, many catastrophes have also happened because feeling people were too scared to see the value of looking objectively at the situation (for example, charismatic leaders can easily exploit our feelings), just because they clinged too much to their humanity.

Plus, like I said before, I felt/thought/sensed whatever that the other chakras fitted well with the corresponding functions, and so there was no other place to go for Ti. So, I thought, hey, why not? I'm not scared of you anymore, Ti.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

> Also, the throat is associated with self-expression, not necessarily objective organization and analysis of systems.


Thanks for pointing that out, but then again, Te is extraverted, hence I would say it can be very self-expressive.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

myjazz said:


> That's not really what I noticed....


Because it's been more elsewhere than on the forum.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

LeaT said:


> Because it's been more elsewhere than on the forum.


I wasn't talking about Functions 


Never mind though


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Plus, like I said before, I felt/thought/sensed whatever that the other chakras fitted well with the corresponding functions, *and so there was no other place to go for Ti*. So, I thought, hey, why not? I'm not scared of you anymore, Ti.


That's assuming you are right with the others. Not Ti at its best, I'd say.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> So which cognitive function works in this manner? I only know of one: Introverted thinking. It is the only function I can identify which works in this manner (second to Ni, but it's often said that the crown and 3rd eye work very closely to eachother), trying to solve the universal puzzle, breaking it down to its essence. Contrary to extraverted thinking which operates within the system, introverted thinkers try to understand the system, so they are no longer limited by it.


You are trying to logically deduce it, but doing so is in itself Ti. It's like Ti trying to argue it's own existence, when ultimately it is based on the fundamental assumption that there is something existing as 'ego' or 'inner' or 'me', that 'thinks the thought'. 



> Hofstadter claims a similar "flipping around of causality" appears to happen in minds possessing self-consciousness. The mind perceives itself as the cause of certain feelings, ("I" am the source of my desires), while according to popular scientific models, feelings and desires are strictly caused by the interactions of neurons. Strange loop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In other words, similar to what you say about feeling (both opposites can be true), can be applied to Ti. I don't object to it (I do this myself as well), as long as one realises this is a mere projection. However, my experience with Ti-users is, that it sometimes strikes me that they don't see their own thinking as subjective but rather as objective and true, similar to an Fi-dom believing in certain values (in particular the ones they hold themselves) to be universal or eternal. 

Anyway, it's Ti, that creates the ego, or the 'I', and in a way everyone is a Ti user, even Te-doms. 

This is what Jung writes on Brahman (a 'cosmogonic myth' of the ultimate reality; the phenomenal universe, its origin, and support are all identical to it.)



> Although Brahman, as the cause and creator of the world, has created the opposites, they must again be resolved in Him, if He is to signify the state of redemption. In the following passages I give a group of examples:
> 
> 1. "Brahman is sat and asat, the existing and non-existing, satyam and asatyam, reality and unreality." [31]
> 
> ...


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

mimesis said:


> You are trying to logically deduce it, but doing so is in itself Ti. It's like Ti trying to argue it's own existence, when ultimately it is based on the fundamental assumption that there is something existing as 'ego' or 'inner' or 'me', that 'thinks the thought'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you're saying my Ti is trying to fool me? You're saying my ego/sense of self is situated in my Ti, and therefore my Ti is trying to trick me with its only toolkit it has (logic) so that I put it, and thus my self, at the crown? 

I laughed good, because it's probably true. The ego can be so desperate, it's actually cute. The only problem is that I'm actually more feeling-oriented lately, and I did not actually try to logically link the chakras with the cognitive functions. No, I went into my shadow and tried to perceive myself as a dom feeler/senser/intuiter... (not through the lense of T, but really, living it) and feel the change in my chakra-body. Afterwards, I did use Ti to validate it logically, as T is a function aswell, and when T does not agree with something, then the picture is not complete. Let's say my ego does lie in my Ti, why would I run from using it simply because I'm now aware that it's my ego? Why would I deny my most developped function? Why run away from your power? The power that can make a difference?

Hence again, why I let go of the whole "destroy the ego" crowd, because then you're suddenly moving in the whole other direction, your shadow becomes your new ego, and your ego becomes your new shadow. It's like abandonning your favourite child for a new one, but the old child will get spiteful. It stabs you in back instead of the front now. There's no escaping the ego. And yes, the ego is an illusion, but what you failed to realise is that illusions are not, not real. Just ask your subconscious mind. The only thing I've found that works is make love, not war with the ego.

Nonetheless, if anyone feels like they have a better model, feel free to post! Also, if you feel like the entire premisis is insane, please say so, I'd like to have a laugh.


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## CaptainWayward (Jun 8, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Thanks for pointing that out, but then again, Te is extraverted, hence I would say it can be very self-expressive.


:\ I think you're trying really hard to push these things into the same box. A dominate Te can be a shut-in. Extroversion has nothing to do with this. Te deals with objective data and reputable sources that arrived to conclusions using objective data; they focus on the properties object rather than how said objective interacts with other objects.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> So you're saying my Ti is trying to fool me? You're saying my ego/sense of self is situated in my Ti, and therefore my Ti is trying to trick me with its only toolkit it has (logic) so that I put it, and thus my self, at the crown?
> 
> I laughed good, because it's probably true. The ego can be so desperate, it's actually cute. The only problem is that I'm actually more feeling-oriented lately, and I did not actually try to logically link the chakras with the cognitive functions. No, I went into my shadow and tried to perceive myself as a dom feeler/senser/intuiter... (not through the lense of T, but really, living it) and feel the change in my chakra-body. Afterwards, I did use Ti to validate it logically, as T is a function aswell, and when T does not agree with something, then the picture is not complete. Let's say my ego does lie in my Ti, why would I run from using it simply because I'm now aware that it's my ego? Why would I deny my most developped function? Why run away from your power? The power that can make a difference?
> 
> ...


I don't mean anything personal, and I wouldn't use the word 'fool' or 'trick' myself, so that's completely on your own account. I'm just giving my opinon, and try to have a rational discussion. It's not just using the function, but also how you use it.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I don't mean anything personal, and I wouldn't use the word 'fool' or 'trick' myself, so that's completely on your own account. I'm just giving my opinon, and try to have a rational discussion. It's not just using the function, but also how you use it.


I understand, but we have to refrain from too much rationality in this case, as rationality is a T perspective/function, and we're talking about 8 functions here.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> I understand, but we have to refrain from too much rationality in this case, as rationality is a T perspective/function, and we're talking about 8 functions here.


I don't know what your objective is, but it clearly isn't mine.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> I understand, but we have to refrain from too much rationality in this case, as rationality is a T perspective/function, and we're talking about 8 functions here.


Both T and F are rational (judging), but how they rationalize differs.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I don't know what your objective is, but it clearly isn't mine.


My objective is simple, completing this puzzle, and you can't see the puzzle by identifying with only one piece of the puzzle (a cognitive function / chakra). You have to take a step back and identify with the whole puzzle first ("thinking outside the box"). So I don't get why you first (rightfully) criticized me for trying to solve this puzzle through the limited lense of Ti, yet now you argue for more rationality?


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Both T and F are rational (judging), but how they rationalize differs.


That's interesting and does seem to make sense, but that's still only half of the puzzle.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

CaptainWayward said:


> :\ I think you're trying really hard to push these things into the same box. A dominate Te can be a shut-in. Extroversion has nothing to do with this. Te deals with objective data and reputable sources that arrived to conclusions using objective data; they focus on the properties object rather than how said objective interacts with other objects.


Tell me this guy isn't using Te and isn't active in his throat (origin of speech). For god's sake he's screaming to the leaders of the EU there. 






However, I can understand the singer argument, but I believe their words do not originate in the throat, but in other chakras who are using the throat for expression, seeing as the throat is the only extraverted higher chakra. And this is where the New Age descriptions get all messed up and fluffy.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Tell me this guy isn't using Te and isn't active in his throat (origin of speech). For god's sake he's screaming to the leaders of the EU there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do think he's a T dominant type, and I'm very likely to put him as a Te-LIE in socionics but I am not so sure about MBTI. He strikes me as either a 1, 3 or 8 in socionics, possibly a combination of them + 5 or 6 as head fix. 

I could see an ExTJ argument for the speaker, but I would be careful to judge people's type based on political speeches because they are not the natural way of how people talk but structured in a specific manner that can lead to type bias. I could equally see a Ti argument because I can see how he has some Fe logic going on there underneath all the T-ness. Also, so/sx <3


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## CaptainWayward (Jun 8, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Tell me this guy isn't using Te and isn't active in his throat (origin of speech). For god's sake he's screaming to the leaders of the EU there.
> 
> 
> However, I can understand the singer argument, but I believe their words do not originate in the throat, but in other chakras who are using the throat for expression, seeing as the throat is the only extraverted higher chakra. And this is where the New Age descriptions get all messed up and fluffy.


How are you discerning he is using Te?


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

CaptainWayward said:


> How are you discerning he is using Te?


Well, he is being expressive (extraverted), and clearly his anger is forged through logical analysis (isn't pissed off that they are abusing children or anything, but that they are implementing policies that he sees as destructive and corrupt), and obviously he is applying judgement.


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## CaptainWayward (Jun 8, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Well, he is being expressive (extraverted), and clearly his anger is forged through logical analysis (isn't pissed off that they are abusing children or anything, but that they are implementing policies that he sees as destructive and corrupt), and obviously he is applying judgement.


Hmm, I think you should read up on Te more, the extroversion portion isn't concerned with how expressive an individual is... it determines whether an individual is subjective or objective in their rational. Simply put, Ti revolves more around a hypothesis and Te revolves around collected data.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

Hey again,

I have decided to completely alter my original chakra - cognitive function model with this one:


1. Root - Lower moving/instinctive center (red): Extraverted Sensation (right brain?) / Introverted Sensation (left brain?) (reptilian brain)

2. Lower back/belly - Lower emotional center (orange): Extraverted Feeling (left brain?) / Introverted Feeling (right brain?) (limbic system)

3. Solar plexus - Higher sexual center (yellow): (Extraverted Intuition?)

4. Heart - Higher emotional center (green): / 

5. Throat - Lower intellectual center (blue): Extraverted Thinking (left brain?) / Introverted Thinking (right brain?) (neocortex)

6. Third eye - Combination of higher emotional and higher intellectual centers (indigo): (Introverted Intuition?)

7. Crown - Higher intellectual center (violet): / (sum of all previous energy centers) 


As you can see, there are 3 lower centers and 4 higher centers. (source: http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=5 / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centers_(Fourth_Way)) 
What does this mean exactly? It means that the lower chakras are dualistic in nature, as they can be divided into positive (extraverted/overactive chakra/radiance) and negative (introverted/blocked chakra/absorbtion) counterparts. Whereas the higher centers are undualistic, they cannot be divided, and thus do not have a cognitive function counterpart, for a function holds no meaning unless it is asserted into extraversion or introversion, and thus forms your personality type. 

The only remaining pieze of the puzzle is the position of Intuition, which I no longer believe to be a real cognitive function like the other 3, as when we slice the human brain up, we find only 3 grand sections and thus only room for 3 true functions: 

- The reptilian brain (Sensation)
- The limbic system (Feeling)
- The neocortex (Thinking)

Yet it would make sense if extraverted and introverted Intuition to not be positive and negative counterparts of intuition, but completely different functions. In this case they can be assigned to higher chakra centers, as I tried to do by linking Ne to the solar plexus and Ni to the Third Eye. This leaves the heart and the crown totally unassigned with a Jung function, but then again, these 2 chakras are often told to be the seat of the soul, with the heart holding the place of unconditional love/compassion, and the crown holding the place of light/wisdom.


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## phoenixpinion (Dec 27, 2012)

CaptainWayward said:


> Hmm, I think you should read up on Te more, the extroversion portion isn't concerned with how expressive an individual is... it determines whether an individual is subjective or objective in their rational. Simply put, Ti revolves more around a hypothesis and Te revolves around collected data.


Yes I agree, but to take that as an explanation that Te in general is not more expressive than Ti is missing the mark. All extraverted functions are, like you said, by nature more focused on the objective/external world (hence their name) than the introverted counterparts (subjective/internal world). So Te is focused with objects, while Ti is focused with subjects. Would it then not make sense that Te'ers are more likely to express their thoughts on the real world, since their focus lies on this objective real world, hence they would find it more important to assert themselves? To give an example, I would say therefore that most, if not all politicians/business leaders are dom or aux Te'ers, as opposed to the academic world, where Ti'ers are becoming much more common. Te, as opposed to Ti, does not require introspection, therefore the source Cassiopaea listed the throat as the only "lower higher" energy center.

However, here comes the most important part, what both Ti'ers and Te'ers fail to recognize is that their T is actually nothing more than a logical arrangement of mental words in their heads. They're all constanly in discussion with themselves (Ti) or others (Te). (This may be the reason why Ti'ers are often viewed as humble (because they are always altering their own thoughts), while Te'ers are often viewed as arrogant (because they are always altering other's thoughts)). But ultimately, it is based on endless words, endless chatter, and chatter is no doubt an element of the throat, hence blue chakra.

PS: This is one reason why I can't put Ti on top anymore (if they can't get out of their chatter, they're not enlightened), and I decided to put it together with Te at the throat, as the opposite side of the coin.


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## Worth Lessemo (Feb 20, 2012)

CaptainWayward said:


> IDK, I think Jung's system is a step beyond it. It's definitely still useful, but it seems to be a mere platform to talk about mental unrest and to explore bodily function. There is plenty of neuroscience that can be applied to improve your cognitive capacity, which in some sense replaces the chakra system.


I'm going to re-frame our stances by two diverging streams of thought. One agrees with you. The other one just can't. 

What ought we prescribe to as a better theory due to the truth of our time? If that is the aim, then I'd agree with you and I mean--realistically I have already. I am here, I also read tons of peer reviewed psych journals, and am doing some philosophy in uni at the moment; you won't find me, however, involved with the chakras too much because there are societal factors I consider. I don't want to associate myself with any theisms or religions, that would be dumb and crazy suicide for my social life given the work I am doing currently. I also think there are cultural norms associated with it, which I want no part of. It serves more social utility to just put it on the backburner. 

But if the question is timeless, that is--without regard to what society holds true in the moment, I'd find the chakra system to have been far more helpful and purposeful to my development as a human being than personality psych. I'd say I owe most of my development to some interpretations of chakras and energy. All Mbti has helped me with has been entertaining myself with facebook memes and helping me learn how to get along with my ESTJ stepfather. That's not personal growth! That's not expanding my mind. If you mean Jung in a larger sense though, personality and psychoanalysis then maybe it'd be more comprehensive and difficult to say. 

It basically depends on the ontology of the current system, and how deeply you are embedded within it. Right now, despite disagreeing with you on usefulness, I am actually kind of within the system. I think it's good people are questioning things like that. It's healthy. 

I'm not really sure what you mean by neuroscience. I've had sex with lots neuroscientists because I am a nueroscience-hoe for some reason, but I never bothered to talk to them about any of it because, heh, neuroscience seems to be in a really bad place the last decade or two. But I can't begin to tell you how many unethical "spin-offs" come out of neuroscience. I mean some of the stupidist people alive get into the spin-offs just to sound smart. It's valuable for hard medical science, but it might be better to trust the other fields of psychology on the expansion of the mind.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

phoenixpinion said:


> Yes I agree, but to take that as an explanation that Te in general is not more expressive than Ti is missing the mark. All extraverted functions are, like you said, by nature more focused on the objective/external world (hence their name) than the introverted counterparts (subjective/internal world). So Te is focused with objects, while Ti is focused with subjects. Would it then not make sense that Te'ers are more likely to express their thoughts on the real world, since their focus lies on this objective real world, hence they would find it more important to assert themselves? To give an example, I would say therefore that most, if not all politicians/business leaders are dom or aux Te'ers, as opposed to the academic world, where Ti'ers are becoming much more common. Te, as opposed to Ti, does not require introspection, therefore the source Cassiopaea listed the throat as the only "lower higher" energy center.
> 
> However, here comes the most important part, what both Ti'ers and Te'ers fail to recognize is that their T is actually nothing more than a logical arrangement of mental words in their heads. They're all constanly in discussion with themselves (Ti) or others (Te). (This may be the reason why Ti'ers are often viewed as humble (because they are always altering their own thoughts), while Te'ers are often viewed as arrogant (because they are always altering other's thoughts)). But ultimately, it is based on endless words, endless chatter, and chatter is no doubt an element of the throat, hence blue chakra.
> 
> PS: This is one reason why I can't put Ti on top anymore (if they can't get out of their chatter, they're not enlightened), and I decided to put it together with Te at the throat, as the opposite side of the coin.


You have such a poor understanding of the functions that it would be better for you to go back and start reading up what the functions actually mean before you write things and try to connect ideas together based on such flimsy logic. Te is not about altering someone else's thoughts and Ti is not a constant discussion with oneself, nor are they just "arrangement of words in your heads". 

This fundamentally misses out what the functions are and how they operate. Ti and Te are thought processes with focus on impersonal analysis. A Ti type can be as extreverted and try to change someone else's thoughts as a Te type can be introverted and not care much at all about the external world around him. Case in point: I can be aggressively persuasive but my persuasion is based on my Ti logic, not Te. 

The difference between Ti and Te is simply how you relate to and understand facts. A Ti type will take facts and try to use that fact in order to create their own personal understanding of that fact, ergo introversion, but a Te type takes the fact as is. Furthermore, Ti is about logical consistency, Te about efficiency. It's about finding the most generalized and applicable idea in order to get something done the most effective way possible. 

I see now why you think I must be a Te type because I so aggressively disagree with you, because you think extraverting thoughts means Te. This is not true. It's about where your focus lies, on the extraverted world or the internal. That has nothing to do with how I express my thoughts. That I seem to come across as aggressive to you has more to do with my enneagram type than my MBTI. I know I'm more aggressive than your average Ti type but again, it doesn't mean I do not think using Ti. I do.


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## Oldieschick16 (Dec 14, 2017)

I theorize that:
Root chakra is Introverted Sensing bc it deals with security, family ties etc as opposed to the spontaneous live in the moment Se. 
Sacral chakra is Introverted feeling bc it has to do with the right to feel as opposed to the true empathy of Fe.
Solar plexus is Extroverted sensing bc it represents ego and would be more impulsive than Root (Si)
Heart is Extroverted feeling bc it represents compassion and forgiveness for the greater good, which is more Fe than Fi. 
Throat I can see as either extroverted or introverted thinking, but since this chakra has to do with truth and speaking the inner truth, it sounds more like introverted thinking but given the implication of organization it could be Extroverted thinking. Could be either one.
Brow is Introverted intuition bc of how it deals with dreams, ESP, etc which would be inner intuitive skills. 
Crown is Extroverted intuition bc it represents everything being possible and the release of earthly concerns. 
That's my analysis. Input welcome


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## empathetic (Aug 10, 2020)

phoenixpinion said:


> As I've found out in the past years, the 7 chakras are energy vortices attached to different vertical points on our body with the lower ones being our link to the material world (our body and planet Earth aka Gaia), and the higher ones our link to the spiritual world (our Higher Self). Why do they have different colors? Because physics teaches us that the universe is made up out of waves (infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, microwave, UV, etc.) and the frequency of the wave determines the color and many of its other physical properties (sound, shape, etc.). Our 7 chakras are linked to these waves, with the lower ones tuning in to the lower frequency waves (infrared and the lower end of the light spectrum), and the higher ones tuning in to the higher frequency waves (the higher end of the light spectrum and the ultraviolet).
> 
> However, what contemporary physics has yet to realise is that these that each frequency of waves not only corresponds to a different chakra but also a different state of consciousness or "cognitive function". So, in that sense your state of consciousness determines your personality type. So, contrary to mainstream psychology/sociology (which primarily views the personality as fixed and determined by environment (nurture)), you do actually choose your personality by deciding what state of consciousness or frequency waves or chakras to tune in and live your life by, although you can also choose not to choose which means you allow your environment to determine it for you. Unfortunately this applies to the majority of the human population (group mentality), so psychology/sociology has therefore laid the connection that we do not really have free will. (As does the scientific department who also do not believe we have free will because "our genes decide our actions". Never did they ask the question: "Do we decide what genes to activate and disactivate?")
> 
> ...


I always took Violet, Crown Chakra for Ne and Yellow, Solar Plexus for Ti but may be you are right or the Original poster. Ne has both optmistic, positive tint to it so i took it that way but sure it alwas makes me feel there is LOT that is hiding to know. It keeps my curiosity and always triggers to find new concepts to ultimate truth or reality. Now that i think about it it definitely controls my Fi ego. Everything else is the same.


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## empathetic (Aug 10, 2020)

CaptainWayward said:


> hmm, I'd say Ti is more 3rd eye and Ni is more crown. Oh, and that chakras are merely an outdated way of looking at the mind, assuming said 'higher' plane doesn't exist.


Chakras can never really be outdated! They are from our ancestors and they are way more conscious, curious and intelligent than us! Iam from India so i know their importance. No one thinks they are outdated! If they are outdated we won't exist. If you believe energy exists so does the energy vortices. They may as well be the driving forces of our life. I would like to see OP's views on link between chakras and enneagram.


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