# ESFJ vs ESTJ -- are they type confused, or do I just not understand?



## CassandraMarie (Feb 15, 2015)

Hi folks. Help me get this straight. My husband and a close friend both test as ESTJ. However, neither of them seem like a T, one even less than the other. Am I just completely misunderstanding the ESTJ type, or is there something about the difference between ESTJ and ESFJ that would cause both people to test wrong?

It seems rather conceited for me to think that BOTH people are wrong about themselves (unless this sort of mistype happens often) but they both seem sooo far from an ESTJ (unless I'm just THAT confused.) Help me understand the differences and similarities of the two types, how these people could be mistyping themselves, and/or how I am confusing the two types. Thanks!


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## TyranAmiros (Jul 7, 2014)

It's very possible one or both is a mistype based on the test they took--my stereotypical ESTJ father tests as ENTJ for the same reasons many ISTPs test as INTP--he says he likes abstractions (he can't handle them well), he says he enjoys principles over specifics (he's so detail-oriented, it's not funny), and he says he's good with ideas (he's not--he just repeats what he's heard). I tend to get INTJ on the dichotomy tests because I "need" to have a schedule and deadlines. My INFP mother gets INFJ or even ISFJ for the same reasons. 

There's also gender bias in the answers--women are more likely to feel pressure to give "F" answers and men "T" answers. I know an ENFP who claims he's ENTP because "he's good with science"--but that's from tertiary Te, not auxiliary Ti. I also have an ENTJ friend who calls herself ESFJ because "that's what a woman should aspire to be". 

Describe the people and I'd be happy to venture a guess!


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

CassandraMarie said:


> Hi folks. Help me get this straight. My husband and a close friend both test as ESTJ. However, neither of them seem like a T, one even less than the other. Am I just completely misunderstanding the ESTJ type, or is there something about the difference between ESTJ and ESFJ that would cause both people to test wrong?
> 
> It seems rather conceited for me to think that BOTH people are wrong about themselves (unless this sort of mistype happens often) but they both seem sooo far from an ESTJ (unless I'm just THAT confused.) Help me understand the differences and similarities of the two types, how these people could be mistyping themselves, and/or how I am confusing the two types. Thanks!


An ESTJ-INFP relationship, like you seem to have, is an example of the ideal "dual" relationship. ESTJs with developed tertiary Ne can be laid-back, love to joke around, and friendly. I personally have several friends like this and I enjoy their company. Are they quick to pass judgement on an individual's actions? Do they have strong political/societal beliefs? Do they like notalgia and having consistency in their dad-to-day routine? These are common ESTJ traits.

The important thing to remember is that ESTJ males make up 16% of the male population. So we can't expect all of them to act alike. ESTJs can be real sticklers for rules and others can be quite social. Some can have strong political/beliefs while others or apathetic and libertarian. There's no one mold that represents what the 25 million male ESTJs are like in this country. Their type just indicates that their traits reflect their functional preference of Te-Si-Ne-Fi.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Esfj and estj should be quite noticeably different due to their being Fe DOM vs Te DOM. really they should be like night and day difference. 

See signature for very useful links that will help you determine the answer.

Estj prefers Fi. Esfj of course Fe. 

The functional axes video should help as well since they are completely different archetypes.


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## Grandalf (Jun 7, 2014)

TyranAmiros said:


> I also have an ENTJ friend who calls herself ESFJ because "that's what a woman should aspire to be".



she's NOOOTT an entj: that's not what xntj's should aspire to be


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## CassandraMarie (Feb 15, 2015)

emberfly said:


> Esfj and estj should be quite noticeably different due to their being Fe DOM vs Te DOM. really they should be like night and day difference.


 See, that's what I thought! That's why it seemed odd to me that I'm having an issue with this. However, if it's such a night and day issue, my husband and my friend aren't matching the image in my head. So maybe the idea I have is far too exaggerated and one sided than the real picture?



sah6635 said:


> An ESTJ-INFP relationship, like you seem to have, is an example of the ideal "dual" relationship. ESTJs with developed tertiary Ne can be laid-back, love to joke around, and friendly. I personally have several friends like this and I enjoy their company. Are they quick to pass judgement on an individual's actions? Do they have strong political/societal beliefs? Do they like notalgia and having consistency in their dad-to-day routine? These are common ESTJ traits.
> 
> The important thing to remember is that ESTJ males make up 16% of the male population. So we can't expect all of them to act alike. ESTJs can be real sticklers for rules and others can be quite social. Some can have strong political/beliefs while others or apathetic and libertarian. There's no one mold that represents what the 25 million male ESTJs are like in this country. Their type just indicates that their traits reflect their functional preference of Te-Si-Ne-Fi.


Both are VERY social, and very very welcoming and inclusive. My husband will go out of his way to make people feel included or provide opportunities for some of the younger teens to be a part of events or contribute if they want to be involved-- even when I'm pretty sure it's not likely to end well (And I'm huge on helping people with personal growth typically) He seems to put their needs above efficiency and logic. I know my husband passes judgment internally at times (as it's internal, I couldn't tell you how often, of course). He'll tell me about certain situations with work or with the Boy Scout troop he leads, but as far as I know, it's limited in communication outside discussing the situation with me or close friends, rather than in the moment with the person involved. I know it takes some self restraint for him to do that, but he will keep it to himself rather than cause drama at work or undermine one of his scouts. I think everyone has thoughts like that to some extent-- it's not so much having the thoughts but how he handles them, right? My friend is a minister, and leads bible studies, and I've been to several with other families aside from the usual one I attend. He's extremely patient and encouraging, and I don't think I've ever heard a harsh word from him, even if someone is incorrect or out of line. He doesn't really rock the boat-- he's just congenial and friendly with everyone. I can't read his mind, of course, but I never hear the judgments if they are there. Even when he's preaching tough concepts that might make people feel uncomfortable, he does it in a manner where I doubt any one in the building feels under attack, but at the same time, unwavering. (And as an INFP, I'm fairly sensitive to that sort of thing!) Not very much outwardly expressed judgment for either him or my husband, seemingly in deference to the well being of others. In that aspect, both seem more like an F.

On the other hand, both have very strong beliefs (but since it's through church, my entire limited social group that I spend any extended time with also has very strong beliefs, so that isn't limited to them. My INFP values combined with my introverted social life mean they are the primary people I spend time with.) As mentioned, my friend is a minister and evangelist in our church, so obviously his beliefs are strong. My husband is the type who is hard to sway one way or another, but will really chew on an idea presented to him rather than dismissing it off hand, and if he eventually agrees, will back it 100%. I think that's the J though-- once he's decided, he is set on it. It goes the other way too though-- if an idea is presented, he won't just accept it without examining it from every angle. He also likes to "play devils advocate" (but openly stating he is doing that) to get others to consider as well. Not sure what that suggests. 

In trying to figure this out with my husband, he says his knee-jerk reaction is to just do the most expedient thing, no matter what the after effect, but that he knows with me, that will not work and that will just curl up into a ball, and then even less progress (no matter what the issue) can be made. That's his take on why he's a T-- even his compassion uses logic, as compassion will be more effective in the goal in mind. That reasoning as to why he's a T makes sense, only, I feel like he's ALWAYS been very thoughtful of others and empathetic, since when I first met him, and not just with me. He also works very hard to preserve the peace in his family, both growing up and now, even when he doesn't agree with them. I would think a T would be much less concerned with stepping on toes. Could he just have a VERY well developed feeling side then?

While, of course, I would love to know for sure about both their actual types, I'm mainly concerned right now in understanding ESTJ vs ESFJ because this issue just illuminates the fact that there is something more that I am not seeing. Clearly, there's a blind spot somewhere, and if so, it's likely to come up again.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

CassandraMarie said:


> * *
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> 
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> ...


Having not met him, I would guess Fe.


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## CassandraMarie (Feb 15, 2015)

emberfly said:


> Having not met him, I would guess Fe.


That's kinda what I'm seeing too. (I'm assuming you mean my husband since I described him more, although I see it for both.) What would a ESTJ do differently in the examples given?


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

CassandraMarie said:


> That's kinda what I'm seeing too. (I'm assuming you mean my husband since I described him more, although I see it for both.) What would a ESTJ do differently in the examples given?


Just watch any Joyce Meyer video on YouTube.


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## Pinina (Jan 6, 2015)

CassandraMarie said:


> See, that's what I thought! That's why it seemed odd to me that I'm having an issue with this. However, if it's such a night and day issue, my husband and my friend aren't matching the image in my head. So maybe the idea I have is far too exaggerated and one sided than the real picture?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can see them being ESTJs, well rounded. Because of my strong ISFJ mother and ENFP father, I've in younger age being raised to develop my F-sides quite a bit, making Fi my second strongest function, and Fe pretty strong as well. 
One important thing when we type people is not to go on stereotypes, in the end it's all about what's going on in their head. 
Do you know their DISC-types, their birth-order and their parents types? That can change a lot.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Pinina said:


> Do you know their DISC-types, their birth-order and their parents types? That can change a lot.


I personally don't find the first two important, but whatever.

Se in exclusive and Ne is inclusive . Se looks for reasons to keep someone out of a group, while the 2nd looks for to invite others in. Some of my ESTJ friends are welcoming and get along with most people.

My question is how captivating is he? Does he make people melt like butter when he meets them? That would be strong Fe. Or does he simply be friendly and people trust him? Because ESTJs can pull that off, well. But a dom Fe with strong Ne is going to be captivating. Also, keep in mind that we use all 8 functions. Our type is based on preferences. I too, will experience things for the pure sensory pleasure/experience (Se). However, I prefer to use Ne as it is my perception, but I've developed Se to be a skill. If you're 30+, it's not unrealistic that an ESTJ would have developed Fe as a skill to relate to others. Hell, Te relates to others, but does it more in a professional way. Te can dislike someone personally but get along with them professionally. Fe can dislike someone professionally, but get along with them personally. As he is a J, which one is more accurate?


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## CassandraMarie (Feb 15, 2015)

Pinina said:


> One important thing when we type people is not to go on stereotypes, in the end it's all about what's going on in their head.


Exactly-- if stereotypes are bad, misinformed stereotypes are doubly bad. The end result won't change how I interact with them, or if it does, only minimally when I don't already know them well enough to respond in a beneficial way in a specific situation (aka, we're having some miscommunication here, maybe it's because they are coming from Fe and I am coming from Fi, or some such like that where I'm already at a loss. Otherwise, I just go with my instinct.) However, my understanding of these two major people in my life will color my perception of these types when I try to understand other people less close to me.



Pinina said:


> Do you know their DISC-types, their birth-order and their parents types? That can change a lot.


My husband is a C, middle child (with a larger gap between him and his younger brother) and a 2 for the Enneagram. I haven't typed his parents yet, though I really suspect his father is an ESTJ- he is much more what I picture for an ESTJ (charismatic, high in management and loves the political wheeling and dealing of it, friendly but when it comes down to it, his way is best). I don't know his mother's type (if I had to venture her personality type, it would not be one of the 16 types, nor would it be very nice.) I am fairly sure she is an unhealthy 2 though.

My friend, I don't know for certain, but my guess would be an S. He has a much older brother, and then two younger brothers close to his age. I know his parents pretty well, but haven't typed them yet either. His mother is probably an F, possibly an I, and I think his dad is an ISxx, but that's just a guess right this moment without extensive thought on the subject.


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## Pinina (Jan 6, 2015)

CassandraMarie said:


> My husband is a C, middle child (with a larger gap between him and his younger brother) and a 2 for the Enneagram. I haven't typed his parents yet, though I really suspect his father is an ESTJ- he is much more what I picture for an ESTJ (charismatic, high in management and loves the political wheeling and dealing of it, friendly but when it comes down to it, his way is best). I don't know his mother's type (if I had to venture her personality type, it would not be one of the 16 types, nor would it be very nice.) I am fairly sure she is an unhealthy 2 though.
> 
> My friend, I don't know for certain, but my guess would be an S. He has a much older brother, and then two younger brothers close to his age. I know his parents pretty well, but haven't typed them yet either. His mother is probably an F, possibly an I, and I think his dad is an ISxx, but that's just a guess right this moment without extensive thought on the subject.


Okey. I've been misstyped as an ESFJ. The reason for that is my strong Fe mother and Fi father who raised me in a very F-ish way (love that), that I'm D/S (the S that matters here) and that I'm the oldest of two kids.

So S could give of Fe-vibes. Oldest (or oldest of the ones around when he grew up) might indicate that as well. The middle child is usually very diplomatic and adaptable. The oldest cares a lot for his younger siblings (and later on, other people as well). Hopes this helped at least a bit!


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## eb44345 (Mar 9, 2014)

I know several ESFJs who type themselves as ESTJs. The reason for this is that inferior function. People commonly misunderstand their inferior function completely. In my observation, I've noticed that MOST people think that their inferior function is really a strength for them. You have to remember that the inferior function is paired with the dominant function. It's the suppressed other side of the dominant function, so for people to use their inferior function requires them to "stop being themselves." By that I mean that people tend to get their identity from their dominant function, so turning off the dominant function feels strange and alien to them.

For the ESFJ, the dominant function is Fe with Ti being the inferior function. It's extremely common for dominant feeling types (ESFJ, ENFJ, INFP, ISFP) to think of themselves as very 'logical' people, particularly for the ENFJ and ESFJ with the inferior Ti, since Ti is more closely associated with pure logic than Te, which is more about results and making things happen. The reality for most people is that they don't even quite understand their inferior function, so for an ESFJ with inferior Ti this means that they have difficulty understanding what 'logic' really is. Sure, they'll get it on an intellectual level, but making real world decisions with it is quite alien to them.

On the other hand, the ESTJ has inferior Fi, so they are going to have difficulty with their own emotions, values, ethics, etc. An ESTJ or ENTJ is going to be the type of person who is not at all comfortable with sharing how they feel about something, opening up and expressing emotion, but they do have strong powerful emotions that come out in extreme ways on occasion as all inferior functions tend to come out in extreme, uncontrolled ways, especially under stress.

In general, you should be able to spot the difference between dominant Te and dominant Fe. Both can be pushy, but the style is very different. Te is very direct, while Fe is indirect. A Te dominant father will tell his kids things like "Do your homework now or you are grounded." Fe dominant will be more diplomatic and polite, but still insist that it needs to be done. Fe dominants are usually very social, popular, charismatic. Good people skills. They often get over-involved in other people's lives. Typically don't like being alone for long periods of time. They are energized by people.

A Te dominant type like ESTJ isn't going to be shy by any means, but they aren't the social butterfly like the ESFJ. They are characterized as being good, efficient, problem-solvers. The type of person who goes to the mall with a list, makes a plan of attack for how to get in and out of that mall in the quickest manner possible getting everything they need. Oftentimes, ESTJs are quite career-oriented, but not always. I know several ESTJs and they are the type of people who will call you out on something directly if you're doing something incorrect/wrong, while ESFJs are more diplomatic and polite. Although, I don't mean that to say they are rude. The auxiliary Si of the ESTJ makes them very dutiful, so if they've been raised to be 'polite' they will be that way as a part of doing their duty.

Also, among all SJ types male ESFJs or ISFJs can be typed as ESTJ or ISTJ while the reverse happens for female STJs who get typed as SFJs. The reason for this is that Si, which tends to make them quite traditional (but not always). Mainly they are experience-oriented due to the Si. Duty-fulfillers. So, in practice usually female SJs will be quite feminine while male SJs will be quite masculine. The 'T' or the 'F' won't have much if any effect on their appearance. I know quite a few men ISFJs and ESFJs who are all very masculine and could easily mistype as ISTJ or ESTJ.

As for test taking, you can try the quiz that I made myself. I tried to focus on the functions, not the letters. Of course it's not perfect, but tests are very, very hard to make. I did try my best though. It's linked to in the signature section of my messages. But remember that people commonly think that their inferior function is a strength. That combined with the SJ tendency for men to be 'masculine T-types' will commonly result in an ESFJ male testing as ESTJ. Happens all the time.


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## Pinina (Jan 6, 2015)

eb44345 said:


> I know several ESFJs who type themselves as ESTJs. The reason for this is that inferior function. People commonly misunderstand their inferior function completely. In my observation, I've noticed that MOST people think that their inferior function is really a strength for them. You have to remember that the inferior function is paired with the dominant function. It's the suppressed other side of the dominant function, so for people to use their inferior function requires them to "stop being themselves." By that I mean that people tend to get their identity from their dominant function, so turning off the dominant function feels strange and alien to them.


Are you saying that my inferior Fi can't be a strength? Might've missunderstood you, but that's how it sounded.


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## eb44345 (Mar 9, 2014)

You can strengthen an inferior function (get better at using it), but someone is never going to make their inferior function stronger than their dominant function. It's a weakness, relatively speaking compared to the dominant function. And yes in general it's usually a weakness for most people, but they commonly think that it is a strength or they may aspire to be that way. Like for me being INTJ with inferior Se I always wished that I was this amazing athlete, but the reality is that my strengths are in different areas. It's not an ironclad always applies rule, but in general I've noticed that a lot of people don't really understand their inferior function very well. I once helped an ESTJ figure out her personality type and she thought that she was a feeling type because at times she was so emotional. "These out of control emotions must make me a feeling type" she thought.

I hope that this isn't interpreted as saying an ISFP has a greater capacity for Fi than an ESTJ. Not at all. The difference is control, not ability. Someone has a better nuanced control over a dominant function than an inferior function. This can be learned too with maturity, which is why in general older people are more mellow/balanced than young people who are more likely to be passionate. The younger person is less mature and the older person has learned to use their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th functions better. But it's not always the case. You can have mature young people and immature old people.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

TyranAmiros said:


> I also have an ENTJ friend who calls herself ESFJ because "that's what a woman should aspire to be".


:frustrating: Oh, HELL no.


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## Pinina (Jan 6, 2015)

JA Grey said:


> she's NOOOTT an entj: that's not what xntj's should aspire to be


Is this really type-related? And don't you dare come and say it's an ESTJ/SJ thing to do.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Pinina said:


> Is this really type-related? And don't you dare come and say it's an ESTJ/SJ thing to do.


Yes, it is type-related: it's a strongly Fe thing.


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## Pinina (Jan 6, 2015)

emberfly said:


> Yes, it is type-related: it's a strongly Fe thing.


Hmm, okey. Had that theory, but I was certainly not sure about it. Thanks!


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

eb44345 said:


> As for test taking, you can try the quiz that I made myself. I tried to focus on the functions, not the letters. Of course it's not perfect, but tests are very, very hard to make. I did try my best though. It's linked to in the signature section of my messages. But remember that people commonly think that their inferior function is a strength. That combined with the SJ tendency for men to be 'masculine T-types' will commonly result in an ESFJ male testing as ESTJ. Happens all the time.


I just took it. At first I thought it was too general, but then I noticed that it started to break down my answers. I absoluted love the fact that it narrowed me down to an ENTP. Because sometimes, I identify more with Fe than Ti. And I'd rather do some stereotypical Se things (amusement park) than Ne things (fantasy novel.) Generic tests can be frustrating, but yours was well done and probably the most exact that I found. I'm going to share it to my Facebook and use it as my test in the future. That is, of course, until I find something that is more novel and exciting.


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## eb44345 (Mar 9, 2014)

sah6635 said:


> I just took it. At first I thought it was too general, but then I noticed that it started to break down my answers. I absoluted love the fact that it narrowed me down to an ENTP. Because sometimes, I identify more with Fe than Ti. And I'd rather do some stereotypical Se things (amusement park) than Ne things (fantasy novel.) Generic tests can be frustrating, but yours was well done and probably the most exact that I found. I'm going to share it to my Facebook and use it as my test in the future. That is, of course, until I find something that is more novel and exciting.


Glad you liked it! The test does start out really general, then narrows to more specific questions for specific types. Took forever to make all the questions.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

eb44345 said:


> Glad you liked it! The test does start out really general, then narrows to more specific questions for specific types. Took forever to make all the questions.


It was worth the time because it was fantastic. The forum should adopt your test or a similar one rather than the open ended questions. But... I do love guessing people's types so we'd just call you in for back-up.


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## Lakin (Feb 4, 2015)

JA Grey said:


> she's NOOOTT an entj: that's not what xntj's should aspire to be


That is exactly what I was thinking. I could never imagine an ENTJ saying that.


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